# Growled and bared teeth at me



## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Hello everyone, 

I am just looking for input on how to handle a situation with our 6 month old. Sorry this is a long write up but I am trying to describe as much as possible in case it is important. 

WE had a training session with a private trainer(purely positive reinforcemet) which went very well(worked on ignoring barking dogs, kids playing next door, and a bunny hopping around) About an hour or so after the trainer left, I had the kids play with Frodo outside while I finished making dinner. Then I joined them and we were just throwing balls to each other and to the puppy if he showed interest . They chased him around a bit because I wanted him to run and get tired, and he did. I sent the kids into the house and I went to get Frodo. There was a rope toy and a ball on the ground near his feet, I reached for his leash and he took the rope toy and ran a few feet and plopped down with it. I don't know why I hesitated, his body language was not threatening or aggressive, but I just felt this reluctance about approaching him in my mind, a kind of pricking sensation and I stopped. I talked to him softly and picked up the ball and approached him and waited before I reached down to pet him and showed him the ball. He looked at the ball., but wrinkled his muzzle, I withdrew and threw him the ball. He just let it go, he also was not holding the rope toy, he was just quiet and panting. 

It has always been his tail wagging and him rolling over the moment I approach him no matter how tired he is. So I came in and grabbed a piece of hotdog and the longer leash which gives me better control over him when we walk him and went back. I still was hesitant to approach him, I thought I would touch his collar and feed him(he is usually very free, I can touch, tickle, rub, hug him and he is happy with it) I kept trying to decipher his body language and also watching my own reluctance to touch him. It just felt very weird and out of place, I was not nervous or anxious but it felt as though this was a stranger dog.


Then as I reached him to touch his collar he growled very distinctly. I withdrew a few steps and just stood there. Then I stepped on the small leash he had on and stood there for a minute, He was looking at me, he could smell the hot dog in my hand, I said 'sit' which he did promptly, then down and I threw him a piece of the hot dog. I still didn't want to touch him. I just turned and walked into the house saying let's go and he followed me, I threw another piece of hot dog into his playpen and I closed it after him. 

He lay down and I took water to him and he was fine. When my husband came home a couple of minutes later, Frodo was still in the playpen, and it is very strange that he was not excited and wagging his tail to go greet my husband. In the past, he would sit up right away and wiggle his butt and wag and whine or bark to be allowed to greet him. Now he was just lying down watching. And then fell asleep.

Was he just tired? ( he did go through the training too) but it really concerns me, what did we do wrong. and what should I do in such a situation?

I did not want to correct him for the growling. I would like to address the underlying problem.

Please let me know if any of you have a clue.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Why were you suddenly afraid of him?

They can sense that a mile away. He was tired and also responding to your state of mind.


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## Jaxx's mom (Jul 14, 2013)

Hmmm... Could he have gotten hurt playing and wanted nobody to come close to him? Or maybe it's toy aggression that caused the growling ... I don't really know just trying to think of some answers.. It's odd that he didn't wag his tail when your husband came close. I don't really know. Maybe you could look up the symptoms on google? 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> Why were you suddenly afraid of him?
> 
> They can sense that a mile away. He was tired and also responding to your state of mind.


I agree. Jax can tell if someone is afraid, or even just leery. I swear we give off a scent plus the body language.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Why were you suddenly afraid of him?
> 
> They can sense that a mile away. He was tired and also responding to your state of mind.



I was not afraid. I was going to get him but something did not feel right. And with this dog my instincts so far have worked well. I am glad I listened to them tonight. 

I think Jax08 might be right, maybe he is hurt or is starting resource guarding. He has a vet appointment tomorrow and I hope they will know if something is wrong physically with him.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sri said:


> I don't know why I hesitated, his body language was not threatening or aggressive, but I just felt this reluctance about approaching him in my mind, a kind of pricking sensation and I stopped. I talked to him softly and picked up the ball and approached him and waited before I reached down to pet him and showed him the ball. He looked at the ball., but wrinkled his muzzle, I withdrew ...
> 
> I still was hesitant to approach him, I thought I would touch his collar and feed him(he is usually very free, I can touch, tickle, rub, hug him and he is happy with it) I kept trying to decipher his body language and also watching my own reluctance to touch him. It just felt very weird and out of place, I was not nervous or anxious but it felt as though this was a stranger dog.




It doesn't matter what you call it. Fear or "reluctance to approach." 

Don't think for a minute that the dog didn't feel it. Or that he didn't sense the vibe from you that made you retreat. 

That is my opinion.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

your puppy knows you're afraid of him.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> your puppy knows you're afraid of him.


LOL. Whatever. you are both happy conjecturing what happened in my mind through my post. 

I was observant and what alerted me was that it was *not* his usual behavior. As far as fear goes that would be the egg and chicken situation and is still not the ideal relationship with one's dog. 

Thankfully the trainer was kind enough to come over again and it is now established that he was resource guarding as well as being exhausted. I took him out to pee and he did and plopped down in the grass totally uninterested in the normal night life he usually takes great pleasure chasing.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I agree with the others, he responded to your "hesitation". If you approached all casual this probably would have not have happened. Dogs are much better readers of body language the we are.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Nigel said:


> I agree with the others, he responded to your "hesitation". If you approached all casual this probably would have not have happened. Dogs are much better readers of body language the we are.


sigh. I was approaching "all casual" because in my mind it was the end of a perfect day for the puppy and us. My hesitation was because of his complete stillness, which to me was unusual. There is a huge difference between being aware of something unusual and evaluating it, and feeling scared. It is like if your partner is upset or angry about something, but is silent but you still sense it. Saying that your partner is upset because you weren't casual is just being silly. 

I do have a sense of our puppy's body language even if only through habit and instinct. 

*Anyway, issue has been resolved if anyone cares to read. *


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

A good link from our trainer regarding resource guarding :

http://www.peninsulahumanesociety.org/resource/pdf/dog/ResourceGuarding_dog.pdf


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

It's great that it's been resolved, but reading through it seems like you're a little defensive imo? 

I personally (and maybe it wasn't your intention at all) feel while reading that you were looking for a "what is wrong with him?" sort of answer. No one was saying you did anything 'wrong' per say but that the observation of him not being his normal self could have manifested in some physical response or an emotional reponse he picked up on. 

I know mine gets cranky after a long day of excercise and sometimes can get a little "these are mine" about his toys . Maybe the situation wouldn't have escalated into full blown resource gaurding if he didn't feel you were acting differently about his stillness or maybe he felt some tension between the two of you from the pricking sensation. All dogs are amazingly empathic for times when something just doesn't feel right. I'm going to assume since this isn't his norm and he's probably not done it ever before.


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## loveformygermanshepherd (Aug 16, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> It doesn't matter what you call it. Fear or "reluctance to approach."
> 
> Don't think for a minute that the dog didn't feel it. Or that he didn't sense the vibe from you that made you retreat.
> 
> That is my opinion.


I completely agree with this too. They can sense any hesitation what so ever and I'm sure he was just reacting to that. But I would still get him looked over at the vet just to be safe. 

And about him not greeting your his dad when he got home. Sometimes maxx doesn't show much interest in my husband when he comes home. He will wag a little but stay laying down and just watch him. But to me that's just because I have worked him and made him tired. But once be does get up to go outside or something then he will greet my husband and want to play with him 

Good luck with your little guy!! 


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sorry I agree. Your reluctance. ... for whatever reason just instigated. And you basically rewarded the bad behavior twice by retreating both times. Just like what another lesser dog would do when he had something he didn't want to share. I'm not a proponent of getting into a power struggle with my dog but they would absolutely not be sending me retreating from nonsense like that. You said that you chose to approach cautiously because you noticed something off and you seem to be somewhat cautious....around your 6 month old puppy. Just be careful about leadership going forward. Really no reason to be so hesitant around such a baby.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sorry I agree. Your reluctance. ... for whatever reason just instigated. And you basically rewarded the bad behavior twice by retreating both times. Just like what another lesser dog would do when he had something he didn't want to share. I'm not a proponent of getting into a power struggle with my dog but they would absolutely not be sending me retreating from nonsense like that. You said that you chose to approach cautiously because you noticed something off and you seem to be somewhat cautious....around your 6 month old puppy. Just be careful about leadership going forward. Really no reason to be so hesitant around such a baby. Please go back and reread your post. you can poopoo everyone who interpreted you own words the same, but you clearly are wary of your dog.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I don't think there is anything wrong with being afraid in that situation. It is better than getting bitten. You have to take resource guarding very seriously and aim to train it out of the dog in a controlled environment. 

A low growl is not to be ignored. If you feel in danger with a dog you probably are. Go with your own animal instincts. In future you need to take a more assertive role with the dog and avoid situations like this. 

To me the issue isn't resolved at all though. The dog got excited because all the children were chasing him and probably screaming after him, to 'tire him out'. 

What would have happened if one of the children tried to get the ball?

The dog got over excited and won the game and got the ball and didn't like the fact that any one was gonna take it off him. 

I feel the dog shouldn't be unsupervised with the children. I know it is hard but better safe than sorry. Also you need to train him to release on command.

If it did that to me it would get no food that evening and be ignored for a few days. I would feed it minimally for a couple of days and tell everybody it is grounded. No playing, treats etc. Then you would see the dog actually being sorry. After a couple of days you reintroduce privileges to the dog on you terms. 

This kind of treatment is called social isolation if you would like to research it. 

Then you need to rebuild you relationship with the dog and start to take a more active role in it's training and growth. 

petdogs-l(social isolation)

There was a good article on Martin Deeleys site but I can't find it now. Maybe this one is ok though.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You can call it resource guarding or whatever you want, but essentially he is testing you and if you don't take over as his leader, your problems will get worse. I do sense you are somewhat fearful or reluctant in knowing how to deal with your dog's snarling/growling. A more experienced handler would have snapped him out of that frame of mind with a quick correction such as grabbing him by the collar with a quick pop and telling him no and then commanding him to down. But because you were afraid you didn't do anything and essentially reinforced the behavior. You have to correct any of his attempts to show dominance over you know before he matures and has learned not to respect you.
With my last pup, who is a very aggressive dog, I had a similar situation, although he was only 12 weeks old. I had to get a bone away from him and he vocalized a strong growl, so I quickly grabbed the bone out of his mouth and told him no and just walked away.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The dog has done this to you before has he not? I seem to recall you having resource guarding issues with the dog in previous posts. You noticed that complete stillness and probably stiffness in him before it escalated into something more aggressive before, perhaps? Many dogs before making aggressive moves will stiffen and go absolutely still like a viper ready for a strike.

I can understand the hesitation. There is a popular dog training saying "Never pick a fight you might lose." It is hard to say what the real right thing is to do in this situation. Backing up was probably not it. Rewarding with hotdog when he was in the possessive state of mind was definitely not it. You don't have to go down there and try to take it from him, indeed this option might be one of the more dangerous ways to go. I'm not saying I wouldn't have done just that but I'm a 210 pound guy who isn't afraid to get bitten.

You might have considered moving in closer when he does something aggressive. Intrude on his personal space with a foot (in a shoe hopefully) stuck out a bit further than the rest of you. If hes going to nail you an untrained dog is going to go for the closest thing he can find and the shoe will provide some protection against that. If he just growls and postures just hold your ground eventually he will withdraw or he will nail you. You might have to wait a while to see which one happens. Do this calmly and don't say anything to him. Maintain eye contact. This standoff can last as long as 10-15 minutes if he's feeling confident he can beat you at the game, but that isn't typical. He's six months? Probably going to withdraw rather than nail you, but I don't know your dog so I don't know that for sure.

If he does nail you, you gotta make him pay for it. I'd take it as a sign he needs groundwork all over again. Crating, leashing everywhere he goes outside of the crate, and no food unless he does exactly what you want in order to earn it. Take all his freedoms and ability to make decisions and by the end of it he will realize who is in control of the relationship.

There are other ways to do it of course. I've seen positive only trainers counter condition this behavior out of dogs before. If you want to spend two or more weeks and several thousand dollars to go this route it is an option.

I can see where chip is coming from. I'd not go that route just because it isn't really necessary. If you can make the dog back off just with presence there isn't really a need to escalate to that level. All you are needing to get across to the dog is "This strategy worked on your littermates but it doesn't work on me." Plus there's a big difference between doing that to a 13 week old and doing that to a dog that is 6 months old or older and can put you in the hospital with its bite force. I'm sure Chip that you know this, but probably wouldn't let that stop you anyway. Some guys are just like that I guess lol.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I know you said the problem is resolved, but I'm curious.... 



> I did not want to correct him for the growling. I would like to address the underlying problem.


Why would you not want to correct him for that? My dogs are NOT ALLOWED to growl at us... ever. I don't care what they have or what they are doing, growling is not something they are allowed to do to us.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Madlab that approach is really interesting. I know there has been research on wolf packs using brief social isolation to correct bad behaviors, but it isn't as extended as lasting a day or weeks, or at least not in cases I am aware of.

I do know trainers that have used food denial only. They were able to train dogs to be completely reliable off leash without ever using a leash using only denial of food. Basically you take away the dog food bowl and he only eats when he works for it and does what he is supposed to. 

It works great for specific behaviors. Lets say your dog is reactive to people or dogs on leashed walks. You only feed your dog on walks around people or dogs and the walk ends as soon as the dog shows that reactive behavior. After a few days the dog very quickly realizes he needs to modify his behavior if he wants to eat, even starts to look forward to seeing strangers or other dogs because he will get to eat. 

The dog doesn't have to stay hungry all the time for this to start to work all the time. They start to value their opportunities to get food way more, like a wolf who doesn't know the next time he will be able to find prey. They will take those opportunities to work for food very seriously, even on mostly full bellies.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sri said:


> I think Jax08 might be right, maybe he is hurt or is starting resource guarding.



Jax08 didn't say he was hurt. Jax08 agreed with everyone else. That puppy read your body language and read your hesitation. And that puppy took advantage of that to push his boundaries.

*Everyone,* including some very experienced people that responded,* can't be wrong *so maybe you need to look at what others are saying.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I know that prickly sensation you're talking about - it's probably saved me from several bites over the years, lol. But what I do (and I'm not an expert, so it's JMO) is stand still and not look at the dog. I don't want the dog to be able to manipulate me with threatening gestures. I also don't want to escalate the situation in most cases, so after a few seconds the dog can calm down a bit and then I will command the dog to do something: using an assertive but upbeat, positive voice. This has always worked for me, it's like changing the subject. I'm glad you have a trainer to help you with this. Good luck


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Jax08 didn't say he was hurt. Jax08 agreed with everyone else. That puppy read your body language and read your hesitation. And that puppy took advantage of that to push his boundaries.
> 
> *Everyone,* including some very experienced people that responded,* can't be wrong *so maybe you need to look at what others are saying.



Ah.. got the names mixed up. It was Jaxx's mom. Not jax08 who wrote:

_Hmmm... Could he have gotten hurt playing and wanted nobody to come close to him? Or maybe it's toy aggression that caused the growling ... I don't really know just trying to think of some answers.. It's odd that he didn't wag his tail when your husband came close. I don't really know. Maybe you could look up the symptoms on google? _


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Kittilicious said:


> I know you said the problem is resolved, but I'm curious....
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you not want to correct him for that? My dogs are NOT ALLOWED to growl at us... ever. I don't care what they have or what they are doing, growling is not something they are allowed to do to us.




Because there is a certain school of thought in training which says 'Do not correct the growl, address the problem that caused the growl.' 

Because if you correct the growl which is a very legitimate warning from the dog, it may not give you the warning the next time. It might just go for the bite. I would rather work the resource guarding out of him.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree with you Sri. I would much rather know the cause, and it's usually very simple. For all you know, the kids were teasing the puppy - not to be malicious, but just their way of having fun. Like tossing the ball back and forth, and the puppy unable to get it. This "monkey in the middle" game drives my own puppy crazy, and I won't let people do this with him because he gets very frustrated.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Sri said:


> sigh. I was approaching "all casual" because in my mind it was the end of a perfect day for the puppy and us. My hesitation was because of his complete stillness, which to me was unusual. There is a huge difference between being aware of something unusual and evaluating it, and feeling scared. It is like if your partner is upset or angry about something, but is silent but you still sense it. Saying that your partner is upset because you weren't casual is just being silly.
> 
> I do have a sense of our puppy's body language even if only through habit and instinct.
> 
> *Anyway, issue has been resolved if anyone cares to read. *


I think what they are trying to convey is just like you noticing an attitude and body language change in Frodo, he equally noticed your change in how you approached him. It may have played into his recource guarding all of assuden. They use reading body language more than we do as well as looks and facial expressions as well. Some of these things you might have been expressing without knowing. I think thats what was trying to be said. 

I know Cruz feeds off of my facial expressions while on walks. He consistantly looks up at me and depending on my mood, he adjusts to it. Just by looking at me. 

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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Sri said:


> Because there is a certain school of thought in training which says 'Do not correct the growl, address the problem that caused the growl.'
> 
> Because if you correct the growl which is a very legitimate warning from the dog, it may not give you the warning the next time. It might just go for the bite. I would rather work the resource guarding out of him.


I do agree with you on finding out the problem, but I still will not allow growling or even backtalk from the dogs (or my human kids).


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Kittilicious said:


> I do agree with you on finding out the problem, but I still will not allow growling or even backtalk from the dogs (or my human kids).


well, im sure you would listen to your human kids' side of an issue. Or else I would feel very sorry for them.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I know that prickly sensation you're talking about - it's probably saved me from several bites over the years, lol. But what I do (and I'm not an expert, so it's JMO) is stand still and not look at the dog. I don't want the dog to be able to manipulate me with threatening gestures. I also don't want to escalate the situation in most cases, so after a few seconds the dog can calm down a bit and then I will command the dog to do something: using an assertive but upbeat, positive voice. This has always worked for me, it's like changing the subject. I'm glad you have a trainer to help you with this. Good luck



Thanks . Since he is a puppy I am not very worried about him biting me. When he gets rough during play I can still pin him down ( I let him go in a few seconds), and he is generally gentle. I am getting better at anticipating his next move, i.e., when his attention will wander, or when he is going to do something he is not allowed to, and getting better with changing pace or activity or distracting him. Only every couple of weeks he seems to come up with something new or hasn't done in a while. Then he is back to being a good puppy again.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Dogs are not humans. That is why so many people are ineffective at training their dogs. They treat them like people. I think your "school of thought in training" is basically BS. How will you know for sure why your dog is growling at you? Is he going to tell you? No, you can only speculate and you might be entirely wrong. The only pertinent thing to know is that your dog is growling at you because he is challenging you and looking to read your response. Your soft "school of thought" shows that your dog is already aware at 6 months that he is planning on being the pack leader. You have to overcome your fear of your dog, or your fear of hurting his feelings. He is a dog. There are rules, one being you will not bite the hand that feeds you (or growl at her.) This is not complicated. Have you ever corrected your dog and if so how, and how effective was it.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I appreciate the fact that people are being honest in admitting to severe corrections for certain behaviors. But, for the dog's sake, I don't believe this is the best advice to hand out. Not knowing the dog, the owner, or the circumstances....we could be signing the death warrant for the dog. How many people jump to PTS once the dog has bitten them? And you know that practically no rescue will take a dog with a bite history. Think of the dog, and support OP's choice of using a trainer to resolve this issue rather than suggesting what works for you. 

And Sri, I could be wrong, but I don't suggest pinning the dog to win the game. What I do is end the game when it's too rough for me. That way, the dog learns how much I will tolerate and will use his own self control - something they need to develop.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I'm not suggesting severe corrections at all. It is more about timing and enough correction to give the dog the message the behavior is unacceptable. It depends on the dog's reaction to corrections. If the dog is soft, a quick stern "no" and a tap to its side with your foot might be enough. Or simply grabbing the dog's collar if he isn't leashed and a quick jerk and a "no" to show disapproval and then a submissive/down obedience commmand for a minute or so. I'm not suggesting any violent prong corrections or helicoptering the dog. I doubt Sri's dog is that hard, so it would not take much. The last thing to do is to ignore the dog growling at you while you cogitate about the possible underlying reasons for the dog's behavior. To the dog, by not correcting the behavior, you have essentially reinforced the behavior by keeping away from him, which is what a growl is communicating to you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Id have thought the reason behind the growl in that case was fairly straight forward anyway. It was a this is my possession stay the **** away growl.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Sorry Chip, I didn't mean just you. There's a few posts in this thread that suggest zero tolerance for the growling.

This has never happened to me with any of my own dogs, but if it did, I'd automatically assume it was due to some sort of injury.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Again unless Sri corrects me I'm almost certain this dog has had history of food or toy possession before. Pretty sure its a reemergence of the issue. Assuming injury is wishful thinking probably.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't know. Obviously, lol. But if there's been past mention of guarding behavior, then that's a good guess. And that's what the trainer indicated.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks everyone. Bailiff, I am amazed at your good memory! Even I forgot those couple of days. Every 2, 3 weeks Frodo does seem to regress/test for a day or so. Yesterday he stole a hot dog from a plate on the kitchen counter and I pried his jaws open to get it out of his mouth. He was fine with it and went and lay down and fell asleep. 

Update:

The reason for my detailed post was: I wasn't sure if it was resource guarding again or was he tired or hurt somewhere and hence did not want to be moved. A lot of things were going through my mind, for example, Frodo has short bursts of running, tires out quickly and lies down. 

So at the vet(who was really awesome with Frodo and I am very relieved), she said he might have hip dysplasia. She checked his hips and moved them, watched him walk, but of course we wont know unless he is x-rayed. So I am really worried about this.

This morning when I let Frodo out of the crate he lay down again with his head in my lap. And after his break outside came in right away and lay down again. And fell asleep. And he has mostly slept except for a couple of hours. This is unusual too, but he does it once in a while and I chalk it up to growth spurts or hot days. But he groans in his sleep.

The good thing is I upped my training again, Cassidy's mom has a very nice video of a game called "can I have it?' and I started playing that with Frodo today whenever he was awake and now he follows me around begging to take the same rope toy from him. Ofcourse I know I will have to generalize this with every toy, every situation and with all of us doing it.

edit: and oh, he weighs 67 lbs at 6 months, and he is on the lean side. think this is about average?


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

I also want to say that I am really cautious and do watch and direct the kids to make sure they don't excite him too much or make him run/ crowd him when he is tired/panting. I let them play when he comes back to them looking for more. Also we play with each other if he is just resting or hogging a toy. He figures we are having more fun and drops his ball and comes to us and then we throw him ours to chase and pick up the one he dropped.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Sri said:


> well, im sure you would listen to your human kids' side of an issue. Or else I would feel very sorry for them.


Of course I do, but only if they are talking to me, not screaming or talking in a sarcastic voice. Crap like that get them sent to their crate... errr, room. 
I won't take a sarcastic tone from the dogs either - which is growling. Just as I will not give them a treat if they didn't do what I asked them to do, they won't get a "backing down" reaction from me if they growl. Same concept. Mom has a bigger growl than they do :wild: I expect certain things from them and growling at me is not one of them - especially in a guarding incident. They don't guard ANYTHING from me - or anyone/anything else (cats included). It's not tolerated. They have no need to guard anything, they have an abundance of everything.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Dogs are not humans. That is why so many people are ineffective at training their dogs. They treat them like people. I think your "school of thought in training" is basically BS. How will you know for sure why your dog is growling at you? Is he going to tell you? No, you can only speculate and you might be entirely wrong. The only pertinent thing to know is that your dog is growling at you because he is challenging you and looking to read your response. Your soft "school of thought" shows that your dog is already aware at 6 months that he is planning on being the pack leader. You have to overcome your fear of your dog, or your fear of hurting his feelings. He is a dog. There are rules, one being you will not bite the hand that feeds you (or growl at her.) This is not complicated. Have you ever corrected your dog and if so how, and how effective was it.


Thanks Chip. 

I think this every time I see one of these threads but these days if you are not your dogs best friend forever along with wearing a treat bag 24/7 then you are a dinosaur and neanderthal who believes in outdated training practices.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Another thing that works for me, and would help you too Sri: I never take things from my dogs. They are taught "drop it" and "leave it" and if I want something they have, then they are to give it up when told to. There's no conflict - it's a command they obey. Prying the hotdog out of his mouth sounds more like a confrontation.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Another thing that works for me, and would help you too Sri: I never take things from my dogs. They are taught "drop it" and "leave it" and if I want something they have, then they are to give it up when told to. There's no conflict - it's a command they obey. Prying the hotdog out of his mouth sounds more like a confrontation.



I agree. We are not there with his training yet in terms of "drop it" and "leave it".

AS far as the discussion on positive training goes, I have to say that I was open to both sides. But there is a side to positive training I do not see in the other way, it involves a lot more ingenuity and creative thinking and problem solving skills. It does take more intelligence. And I have met and worked with trainers in both camps. More than this, I saw the difference in our own puppy's behavior and demeanor. And it is not true that it is all 'oh my precious puppy, i do not want to hurt you.' it takes a greater amount of body language and presence of mind, tone of voice corrections. And the positive method trainer I met really had all of these qualities over and above the other trainers. There was calmness, proper amount of excitement, control..all of which I admired. 

And not just 'HOW DARE YOU NOT LISTEN AND OBEY'. YANK THE PRONG and CHOKE CHAIN!!! Maybe these were not really the best trainers of their kind but they were certainly not what I want to be with our puppy. 

But in the end each to his own. All I want is a great life with and for our dog, and I will make the best decisions I can using whatever instincts and reasoning I have towards this end.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Sri you gotta teach a leave it or off command. It's so easy and quick to train you can do it with 8 week old puppies. Get on that!


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Yeah, he knows the command. But with low value things. How do I get him to that level??


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Train it like he trains the off command in this video but with really high quality food treats or even steak. Works for toys too. You want em to generalize it.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

He actually does the Leave it with high value things. I can leave it on the floor or keep it in my hand, even on his paw and step away. 

But it is the 'drop it' I am having trouble with. Especially in cases like when he has the hot dog in his mouth.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Sri said:


> But it is the 'drop it' I am having trouble with. Especially in cases like when he has the hot dog in his mouth.


If the hot dog is used as a reward why are you asking a 6 month old puppy to drop it.

How about getting him to drop other things and reward with the hot dog.

If you really have some need for your pup to drop food from his mouth then I don't think using reward food is the way to go about it.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> If the hot dog is used as a reward why are you asking a 6 month old puppy to drop it.
> 
> How about getting him to drop other things and reward with the hot dog.
> 
> If you really have some need for your pup to drop food from his mouth then I don't think using reward food is the way to go about it.


This is a different topic. I was explaining that the puppy counter surfed and stole a hotdog yesterday afternoon. And I pried his jaws open and took it out. He was fine with it and went and lay down. But the better thing would be for him to 'drop it', but we are not there yet with our 'drop it' command. He will do it only with a ball or a toy. And ofcourse the best thing would be for him to never counter surf. I am keeping a watch on him and tell him 'leave it' when I catch him about to do that. He does not do it often.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Try this


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

I think all through the puppy stage it's about teaching and reinforcing wanted behaviors and discouraging unwanted behaviors. If you react differently for the same unwanted behavior, they get confused. If your soft or reluctant to correct in a smart way, you encourage them to take on a leadershio role. Reinforcing the wrong way or the wrong thinga to me leads into this. Sometimes you don't realise your doing it unless someone experienced notices your behavior and corrects it. I know, I've been there.

It's good you have a trainer who will assist you during these random occurances. But just like everything else, not all trainers train the same or are effective in thier methods and as I've personaly witnessed several times, just see things different than other trainers.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

jafo brings up a pretty good point. Its probably better to not correct a behavior at all or react to a behavior at all than to do so reluctantly or in the wrong way.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Baillif said:


> jafo brings up a pretty good point. Its probably better to not correct a behavior at all or react to a behavior at all than to do so reluctantly or in the wrong way.




Yes, I totally agree with that. 

And awesome video, thank you! I have been doing the throwing the food or rolling a ball on the floor when he is in a down/sit stay and rewarding him for leaving it with something else. 

But it is great to hear from an expert step by step in progression and how I should be rewarding and taking it to the next step.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Blanketback said:


> Another thing that works for me, and would help you too Sri: I never take things from my dogs. They are taught "drop it" and "leave it" and if I want something they have, then they are to give it up when told to. There's no conflict - it's a command they obey. Prying the hotdog out of his mouth sounds more like a confrontation.


Yes, in theory, for sure. But in the real world there are going to be times when it's necessary to take things away from them, at least with my dogs. Sri mentioned my game with Halo - I do tons of trading games as foundation work, to the point where Halo started bringing me bones to hold for her while she chewed them, she brings me balls to take away and give back, and she's not even asking me to throw it for her! At first I'd reward her for bringing me things, but now the game itself is reward enough, it's something she clearly enjoys, and she's the one who instigates it.

BUT....she's also a total food fiend, and is not above snatching things she's not supposed to have. One time I was cutting up cheese into little cubes for our nosework class and she managed to grab the plastic bag with the big block of cheese in it right off the counter while I was washing out the food tubes from our previous weeks class. I didn't even see her do it, I just heard the crunch of plastic and went looking for her, and there she was on the living room floor, trying to eat the cheese right through the bag. :wild: No amount of "drop it" or "leave it" would have made her give up such a prize, so I marched over, pried open her jaws, and took the cheese away. No muss, no fuss, no big deal.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I think the better thing to do is to watch your dog while he's in the house and not let him counter surf to begin with. You might try teaching him meditation or getting him some self help books.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol, I'm no master trainer. But my puppy was a poo eater so he was hearing "drop it" from the age of 8 weeks. Of course, he didn't know what that meant yet. But then I got all new-age hippy-dippy and using the 2 ball trick (dog drops one ball when he sees the other) clicking when his jaws opened up, and treated him for this, he learned "drop it" no time at all.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You might try teaching him meditation


Did it. 

Well, kinda-sorta. I taught Pongu to take deep breaths on cue as a self-calming behavior when we were doing a lot of behavioral rehab for his fear issues. (Watch the nostril flares, that's what I'm clicking to capture.)





 
And you know what, it worked. Don't know that I'd recommend it for the OP's situation (doesn't seem particularly relevant based on the descriptions posted), but "doggie meditation" actually did help my crazy fearful mutt get to a calmer mental place. It's a thing!

/threadjack


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## TATTOO&MONEY (Aug 9, 2013)

Kittilicious said:


> Of course I do, but only if they are talking to me, not screaming or talking in a sarcastic voice. Crap like that get them sent to their crate... errr, room.
> I won't take a sarcastic tone from the dogs either - which is growling. Just as I will not give them a treat if they didn't do what I asked them to do, they won't get a "backing down" reaction from me if they growl. Same concept. Mom has a bigger growl than they do :wild: I expect certain things from them and growling at me is not one of them - especially in a guarding incident. They don't guard ANYTHING from me - or anyone/anything else (cats included). It's not tolerated. They have no need to guard anything, they have an abundance of everything.


 As far as I'm concern, you and Chip Blasiole are the kind of guys that love your dog but know exactly how to be a true pack leader. Anytime your puppy, adult or aging dog is growling at you it deserve to be discipline. A GOOD dog will never ever try to read it owner's state of mind so he/she can dominate over them. I'm a newbie when it come to GSD, I have two GSD puppies myself and I love them to death. I feed them, play with them, walk them, pick up their gigantic poops every morning, afternoon and night, clean up their urine with the garden hose every single time they pee on the paver in the backyard, I'm worry out of my mind when they poop worms, on top of that I wipe their butts when they poop runny. When people try to read their dog's mind and won't give the "dog with a attitude" discipline right on the spot, they are just setting themselves up for a BIG future bite.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

SRI, 

You need to pick your battles. 

If you are having issues with resource guarding prying a hot dog out of your dog's mouth is really not a good idea. That reinforces that good things go away when you get too close. If it was a bottle of IB profin, then you would have had to pry it out of their mouth. As for being rewarded for counter-surfing, well, I would have put that one on me for not keeping tasty or dangerous stuff out of reach for now.

When I read the OP, I definitely thought about what the puppy was getting from your body language. Whether you are afraid or not, the body language was expressing something to your puppy. It was expressing that you were hesitant, wary, up to no good. And by backing down, you reinforced his growl. Hey it worked. I growled, she backed away to a safer distance. 

Of course puppies do not think exactly that way, but they can connect an action to a reaction, and will repeat that. 

Your puppy is six months old, and getting this now may be the difference between a long happy relationship with your pup, kids, etc, or a tearful post when your dog is 12 months or 18 months, portraying helplessness and the sad resolve that the dog needs to be put down, if a very special owner cannot be found.

I am sorry, but if you are working with a trainer/behaviorist, and your dog is now growling, I think you need to change tacts, and maybe different trainers. But all of that will not do anything if the moment anyone suggests something you are not open to hear, you will become defensive or full of excuses. 

Lots of people have trouble with the various puppy stages. If you can listen to what they are saying without thinking that they are being judgemental, then you can possibly make the changes that are needed.

If the problem is in the puppy, there is only so much that training and management can do -- and still the way we act towards them will play a part. If people are cuing into something you are doing, that they would do differently, then the fix is a lot easier than fighting genetics. 

Good luck with your puppy. Personally, I would expect to take your boy to classes once a week for a year, at which time, he will be pretty much through the adolescent stupids, and should have a good strong bond with a healthy perspective of what he needs to do by what you tell him.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

I was reading and realize that I have never heard my pup growl or show his teeth, and when he does and if he does... I am sure I will just stand there terrified as well. Not much you can do to control shock.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

TATTOO&MONEY said:


> As far as I'm concern, you and Chip Blasiole are the kind of guys that love your dog but know exactly how to be a true pack leader. Anytime your puppy, adult or aging dog is growling at you it deserve to be discipline. A GOOD dog will never ever try to read it owner's state of mind so he/she can dominate over them. I'm a newbie when it come to GSD, I have two GSD puppies myself and I love them to death. I feed them, play with them, walk them, pick up their gigantic poops every morning, afternoon and night, clean up their urine with the garden hose every single time they pee on the paver in the backyard, I'm worry out of my mind when they poop worms, on top of that I wipe their butts when they poop runny. When people try to read their dog's mind and won't give the "dog with a attitude" discipline right on the spot, they are just setting themselves up for a BIG future bite.


Thank you. I like to think I'm in control of my dogs. Granted, I've come a long way with Knuckles. I tried a few techniques with him and honestly when I went back to what I knew - old school thinking, it's when things turned around with him. I don't beat him, I don't even hit him, but I treat him like a dog and I treat him like a big baby at the same time. Im not ashamed to even say that there has been a time or two when he's gotten a nip from me on his muzzle. Yes, MY teeth on HIS muzzle. Didn't hurt him, but **** did he sit back and look at me funny... and he knew I meant business. Its nothing more than our other dog does to him and he doesnt think of me any different than just another dog, only I have thumbs that can carry a food bowl. He still has a few fear issues with loud trucks and new people, but thats as far as it goes. He can sit in the front yard unleashed and unless I tell him he can go out of the yard, his paw won't even touch the pavement of the road... even if his ball got thrown into it. 

One of my pet peeves is "positive training"... in dogs and in kids. Heck, look at what this positive parenting crap has gotten us to. It works for some, but in my opinion, very few. Sometimes you just have to go back to your roots and do it old school. Even with my kids, sometimes it doesn't matter what their side of the story is - if they screwed up, they screwed up and they have to pay for it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My dogs do not see me as a dog. And I don't bite them, nip them, put my teeth on them. I do hug them, kiss them, and pet them. I can take anything out of their mouths, and I can clip their toenails, clean painful ears, and stick a thermometer up their bum. And, they do not growl at me. I think that by going down to a dog's level (trying to act like a dog) with a dog that will challenge a human, that is a recipe for disaster. 

I am sick and tired of the positive training discussions. It seems like an an awful lot of people think that people are either yanking and cranking, or clicking and treating with never acknowledging the dog did anything incorrectly. There are miles in between the two extremes, and dog training is accomplished on every step of it. 

And, the idea that what works with one dog, works with every dog exactly the same, is ludicrous. 

Does yanking and cranking work? Yes. 
Does purely positive click/treat, ignore unwanted behavior work? Yes. 
Does choking a dog out with a choke chain work? Probably -- and that doesn't mean it is correct to use it. It certainly doesn't mean it is the best method to train any dog. I don't know if there is a best method for training any dog, and I am sure there isn't a best method for training every dog. 

To be an effective trainer, you need to be open enough to try things differently to get a better result.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

*@Kittilicious*  : What exactly has the positive parenting crap gotten to? Just really curious. And what is positive parenting? Never heard the term.

*@selzer* : I am thrilled when people show me what I am doing wrong. Nothing like constructive criticism. In fact, baillif has helped me a lot, so has madlab (in this post atleast.) And Cassidy's Mom...she is like way up there for me. Just to mention a few.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Just really felt like sharing this awesome article I was reading tonight, I had never heard of any of these people before. But someone shared the following awesome video with me. And I just adore that dog. 

No need to introduce Mario Verslijpe to dogsport fans.

Mario Verslijpe worldchampion FMBB 2012 Obedience 98 - YouTube


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Positive training is great especially when teaching obedience related commands, but positive only is a hard way to go with some behavior modification. Sometimes a negative punishment is the best and quickest way to go to get across the point that a behavior is unacceptable. Even the pros in the ringsports have to break it out every so often, and not one of them would be a pro on the level they are had they not.


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## loveformygermanshepherd (Aug 16, 2013)

Sri said:


> Just really felt like sharing this awesome article I was reading tonight, I had never heard of any of these people before. But someone shared the following awesome video with me. And I just adore that dog.
> 
> No need to introduce Mario Verslijpe to dogsport fans.
> 
> Mario Verslijpe worldchampion FMBB 2012 Obedience 98 - YouTube


Amazing!! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Sri said:


> *@Kittilicious*  : What exactly has the positive parenting crap gotten to? Just really curious. And what is positive parenting? Never heard the term.


The "figuring out what is wrong with your child" mentality. (which leads into medicating them because they don't behave properly) Time-outs, little to no discipline, allowing your child to have their own voice, the list goes on. It branches out to the parents who when their child brings home a "C" on their report card, the parent goes to the teacher and demands to know why they gave them a C... not looking at the child and saying "why did you get a C". Its never the childs fault, its always the teacher or the little boy down the street who hurt his feelings or he didn't sleep well last night or the tree branch in the front yard is irritating him so it ruined his day. Its the "every child gets a participation ribbon" because god forbid they feel like they didn't win anything. If you haven't been in the parenting world, believe me, it's there and it's pathetic. (I'm a mom of a 17 & 19 year old)
And what has it gotten us? A generation of kids who don't know how to respect their elders and don't know how to take responsibilities for their own actions. But thats a whole different topic and not for this board. 

But on the topic of this board... the reason I brought it up is because sometimes a dog is just being a stubborn little brat and needs a negative response to it (a firm "No!" with honest anger/disappointment in your voice). There isn't always an underlying reason for what they do... sometimes they are just being a bratty dog and need to be told that being a brat is not nice.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Allowing your child to have their own voice?
I don't understand what that means.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The child to dog comparison was never a good one anyway.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Baillif said:


> The child to dog comparison was never a good one anyway.


I think Berleen is saying that just as people have become overly permissive with their children, it is showing up in dog ownership, as well. 
And lack of discipline, accountability and rule enforcement is resulting in some pretty nasty behaviors.

How'd I do, Berleen?


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Kittilicious said:


> The "figuring out what is wrong with your child" mentality. (which leads into medicating them because they don't behave properly) Time-outs, little to no discipline, allowing your child to have their own voice, the list goes on. It branches out to the parents who when their child brings home a "C" on their report card, the parent goes to the teacher and demands to know why they gave them a C... not looking at the child and saying "why did you get a C". Its never the childs fault, its always the teacher or the little boy down the street who hurt his feelings or he didn't sleep well last night or the tree branch in the front yard is irritating him so it ruined his day. Its the "every child gets a participation ribbon" because god forbid they feel like they didn't win anything. If you haven't been in the parenting world, believe me, it's there and it's pathetic. (I'm a mom of a 17 & 19 year old)
> And what has it gotten us? A generation of kids who don't know how to respect their elders and don't know how to take responsibilities for their own actions. But thats a whole different topic and not for this board.
> 
> But on the topic of this board... the reason I brought it up is because sometimes a dog is just being a stubborn little brat and needs a negative response to it (a firm "No!" with honest anger/disappointment in your voice). There isn't always an underlying reason for what they do... sometimes they are just being a bratty dog and need to be told that being a brat is not nice.



Ah. I quite agree with you on that. Both about dogs and kids. Although I think the kids in your example had no parenting. positive parenting is a terrible misnomer. I have 3 of my own, and don't even get me started with the certificates of achievement for nothing. I am all for discipline and routine no matter what one wants to do.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I think Berleen is saying that just as people have become overly permissive with their children, it is showing up in dog ownership, as well.
> And lack of discipline, accountability and rule enforcement is resulting in some pretty nasty behaviors.
> 
> How'd I do, Berleen?


Not Berleen but a big *yes* from here.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Allowing your child to have their own voice?
> I don't understand what that means.


Having your child explain to you why they misbehaved... what were the factors that led up to it, who influenced you to behave that way... lets break it down and figure out why (read between the lines.. lets find a way to make it where it isn't your fault) Its fine to let your child have their own voice, but when they are telling an adult how it is and how it's going to be, thats not what it was meant for. This "positive parenting" has been turned around and people are raising kids that don't understand how the world really works. I have seen too many kids/teens abuse this "children have a voice" stuff. I sub as a teacher's aide in school... you wouldn't believe how kids talk to teachers today! A child would rather argue why it's someone else's fault that they didn't have their homework done (going as far as blaming the teacher for it) than sitting back and figuring out why its theirs. Sure, kids are kids, but its so out of control on how kids are today vs 20 years ago. And then these kids get out into college/a job and can't figure out why suddenly it's not fair. 

This is so far off topic from the OP.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I think Berleen is saying that just as people have become overly permissive with their children, it is showing up in dog ownership, as well.
> And lack of discipline, accountability and rule enforcement is resulting in some pretty nasty behaviors.
> 
> How'd I do, Berleen?


A heck of a lot better than I did.... :wild:


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Ah… I would not call that having their own voice, I would call those excuses.

Everything is someone or something else's fault. Nobody likes to be told or to admit that they are wrong.
Why? Since when are humans so darned perfect that they can't stand to be corrected? What is so horrible about being wrong? It doesn't mean you're stupid or inferior. It just means that you are a human being.

I am the first one to admit when I mess up, and I tell my children exactly that. I admit when it is my fault. I do think that sets a good example, because today's lack of accountability (and I won't get into things that are not allowed on this forum,) is driving me crazy these days.

Sorry, way off topic.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kittilicious said:


> Having your child explain to you why they misbehaved... what were the factors that led up to it, who influenced you to behave that way... lets break it down and figure out why (read between the lines.. lets find a way to make it where it isn't your fault) Its fine to let your child have their own voice, but when they are telling an adult how it is and how it's going to be, thats not what it was meant for. This "positive parenting" has been turned around and people are raising kids that don't understand how the world really works. I have seen too many kids/teens abuse this "children have a voice" stuff. I sub as a teacher's aide in school... you wouldn't believe how kids talk to teachers today!* A child would rather argue why it's someone else's fault that they didn't have their homework done (going as far as blaming the teacher for it) than sitting back and figuring out why its theirs*. Sure, kids are kids, but its so out of control on how kids are today vs 20 years ago. And then these kids get out into college/a job and can't figure out why suddenly it's not fair.
> 
> This is so far off topic from the OP.


Do you REALLY think kids did not make up excuses for why their homework wasn't done 20 years ago???

C'mon kids ARE kids. My parents NEVER would have been accused of using positive parenting. And the schools used corporal punishment -- plenty of it. And if you got in trouble at school, you got in much, much worse trouble at home. And I remember distinctly telling my third grade teacher about all the reasons I could not do my homework the night before, including everything I heard the other kids use as excuses, like going to Grandma's and adding in all the chores I had to do. That was 1976 -- nearly double your 20 year figure.

My only question is why kids even bother to make up excuses nowadays when they don't have the paddle at school and most of them don't have it at home either. "Junior, why didn't you do your math homework?" "I didn't feel like it." -- In them days they would have made us _feel _like it. 

Ah yeah, but this is way off base. Must be a full moon. 

Kids didn't lie or make up excuses about why their homework wasn't done 20 years ago. I think we sometimes forget what it was like to be 8 years old.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Heck, yes, "My dog ate my homework" was invented way before we even existed on the earth.
But no one used to get away with what they get away with in 2013.

Times have changed. Older people get bitter when that happens. I think it happens with every generation. Just look at the difference between those who were raised in the 1950s and those of us who grew up in the 70s.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it is the younger old people that have a harder time with the younger young people out there. I am thinking at my age, it is just better to be a bit more mellow, and remember crap that happened 40 years ago, while the people that are remembering things 20 years ago are having cows about the people who are raising kids now. 

I never thought I was an older old person. I really am not. I guess I am middle aged, but it seems to be the people that are my age and younger that are freaked out about how bad kids are these days. 

I was with my nieces yesterday, and in the car we were listening to some early Weird Al, Ricky, Gotta Boogie, When I was YOUR age. 

People MY age have been telling People YOUR age how much easier they have it since the beginning of time. If Cain didn't kill Able over their relationships with God, Able probably would have killed him for saying, "When I was your age," one too many times.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

To the OP. 

Solid obedience will help you avoid situations that make you uncomfortable. If you had good recall and a solid out trained, you could have called the dog to you and told it to out the toy. 

Had the dog not known these commands, I would have given a stern verbal correction, reached down and took the toy and walked away. That's my toy. 

As some others have stated, there is a huge gray area between strictly positive and yank and crank. I wouldn't hang a puppy for this at all. I like some possessiveness for what I do. I would make it clear, without inducing a bunch of conflict, that it's up to me when you get your toy. 

If I reached for the toy and the dog bit me, or tried, I would physically correct the dog and build a plan to counter-condition the dog. A 6 month old with only a couple of instances of possessiveness is nothing to get all worried about, but you have to deal with it when it comes up, or you are rewarding the behavior. He wins, so he will do it again, and just may up his game next time.

About the hotdog. I'm my opinion, you made a mistake. The hotdog wasn't dangerous, so it wasn't worth the conflict to pry it out of his mouth. That is going to bolster his possessiveness. 

I would start training the out today, with a tug, in a motivational way. His reward would be another game of tug. Have a plan, whatever you deem appropriate, ready for next time.

David Winners


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## shugarhey (Jul 29, 2013)

Sri said:


> A good link from our trainer regarding resource guarding :
> 
> http://www.peninsulahumanesociety.org/resource/pdf/dog/ResourceGuarding_dog.pdf


Thank you for sharing... I have a 10 week old pup now. If he ever exhibits these behaviors, this is a good reference. I hope your boy is doing better.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

selzer said:


> Do you REALLY think kids did not make up excuses for why their homework wasn't done 20 years ago???


we had excuses that we _attempted_.. we didn't honestly expect them to work. Spend a day in a high school and tell me what you think. I have talked to teachers about this and they said their hands are tied - if the student doesn't do the homework but turns it in the next day you have to give them credit for it if you don't want *the parents going to the school board.* 
Even the teacher that I had twentycoughcough years ago who had respect from every single student in school retired because he had no control, it made him sad how the teenagers took over the school. And I'm not in a big city... small cornfield USA... its like this in all the schools. 

I am really seeing this in dog ownership too. Have you met the dog owners who don't think it's healthy for them to raise their voice at their dog? You should always talk in a calm, happy voice, never allow your voice to show disappointment or anger? (there's another example of the new-age parenting) My vet and I have talked about it, she said it's a new fad, but then the dogs come to her with behavior problems and the owners can't figure out why.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

@David Winners : Thanks.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Kittilicious said:


> we had excuses that we _attempted_.. we didn't honestly expect them to work. Spend a day in a high school and tell me what you think. I have talked to teachers about this and they said their hands are tied - if the student doesn't do the homework but turns it in the next day you have to give them credit for it if you don't want *the parents going to the school board.*
> Even the teacher that I had twentycoughcough years ago who had respect from every single student in school retired because he had no control, it made him sad how the teenagers took over the school. And I'm not in a big city... small cornfield USA... its like this in all the schools.
> 
> I am really seeing this in dog ownership too. Have you met the dog owners who don't think it's healthy for them to raise their voice at their dog? You should always talk in a calm, happy voice, never allow your voice to show disappointment or anger? (there's another example of the new-age parenting) My vet and I have talked about it, she said it's a new fad, but then the dogs come to her with behavior problems and the owners can't figure out why.


Can we start a thread in chat about this? 
I would like to discuss this further, but do not want to hijack this thread.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kittilicious said:


> Have you met the dog owners who don't think it's healthy for them to raise their voice at their dog?


Actually no, I never have met a dog owner like that. :shrug:


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Actually no, I never have met a dog owner like that. :shrug:


Lucky you.. it's annoying.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Can we start a thread in chat about this?
> I would like to discuss this further, but do not want to hijack this thread.


I'm for it! There is so much more I wanted to say, more examples that I've seen but I didn't say it because it didn't have anything to do with this thread (not that this thread didn't go all over to begin with)


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

I don't care about the thread being hijacked at all. I got my answers, and that's good enough.

It is funny though when you think that the present generation of parents were raised by the older generation of parents? 

What you mentioned that happens in *all schools*, does not happen in our school here. Perhaps there are parents who argue about a teacher's competency and legitimately in some cases, I might add. But I cannot think of a single instance when my kids got away with not doing their homework. Or that I bothered to argue with a teacher for a better grade. I don't really know how many parents do, but since I am an average person, I would say most average people do not. If you don't like your kid's grade, you go over the subject with them, if they had trouble understanding, you work with them on it, if they were just plain lazy, I need to see extra work on that subject every day. If the teacher was unfair and took off more points than allowed on a project than what her rubric said, I tell them it is not important, it is the work they put in that is important, and they will see the payoff in future in their own lives. The teachers, to me, are just there to plan out the school year, pace the studies, and hand out the notes, and classroom activities. It really is up to my kids to study and make sure they have covered the material, and find some one thing interesting enough in the chapter that they do extra reading on the net on it. 


As for teachers, I have only met two in my life that inspired me. Thankfully they were my math and physics teacher, and strangely enough a history teacher who brought so much life to an otherwise boring subject by bringing much to the subject including politics, psychology, and philosophy that I still have an interest in all of them. As for the math and science, I am an Engineer. 


BTW, I am curious, kittilicious. What do your kids do? They must be still in high school? Do they find it hard being in a classroom with the environment like you mentioned?


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Sri said:


> BTW, I am curious, kittilicious. What do your kids do? They must be still in high school? Do they find it hard being in a classroom with the environment like you mentioned?


Yes they do. My youngest, who is a senior this year, HATES how teachers are treated. She comes home quite often complaining about it. 

And no, not every parent runs to the teacher and blames them, but there are more than you think. They think their child does no wrong. Talk to a couple teachers in your school... you'ld be surprised. 

Ok, here's an example. There was an article last year or the year before about a bus driver who stopped the bus, got up and yelled/screamed at a bunch of teens because of how they were acting on the bus. The kids went home, told their parents... parents called the school. Somehow this made the news. Probably because it was caught on video. The readers' comments were outrageous... fire the bus driver, he needs to be charged, etc etc. Now me? I say Go, Bus Driver, go! Put those bratty kids in their place, but no... thats the parents place to discipline kids, not the bus driver.


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