# Grass greener on other side



## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

One thing I have learned in my puppy search and my search for a reputable breeder is I would never buy a puppy from somewhere and have it shipped without visiting the breeder. I have had alot of people recommend breeders (not just on here, even trainers and vets in the area) and spoken to alot of breeders and you get there and it doesnt seem reputable. How can you verify a breeder is reputable without a visit? I am not going to name any names but the websites may be sharp and fancy and the breeder talks a good game but all I can say is go visit and see for yourself!!!!

It is the age old saying, the grass always appears greener on the other side!! You are better off with a local breeder you can check out, visit, meet the parents (or at least one) than going with some far away guy that comes highly recommended, has a nice website, and talks the talk!

Just my opinion!!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you can definitely find a reputable breeder
with nice dogs without going to visit the
breeder. i bought my pup months before he was born.
i only knew the breeder from her website, e-mails
and phone calls.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Oh, I dunno. I do agree it is important to visit breeders. Some places I visited are what convinced me to go in another direction in getting a pup. That said, I had my pup shipped, never met the breeder, and she did a great job. If you're going to go the shipping route, you basically have to confirm what kind of breeder they are by talking to a lot of other people who got dogs from them. Worked for me


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Well, I got one dog from a local breeder, visited, met the parents etc etc. and ended up with not a good dog. Another dog was chosen based on research and pedigree, I just went to pick the pup up at 8 weeks old, could have him shipped with the same result. The dog is a DREAM! Go figure, right?


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

How can you verify a breeder is reputable through emails, or even talking to other people or over the phone? The thing is alot of these breeders probably do think they are reputable and would pass a lie detector test if you asked them if they are reputable. But everyone's idea of reputable is different.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

BrianB said:


> How can you verify a breeder is reputable through emails, or even talking to other people or over the phone? .


Because one owner/purchaser of a pup from a breeder might lie, two might even lie, but if you talk to five or ten people who have dogs from one breeder you ARE going to get the truth about what they are producing. You can also look at titles of progeny to see what they are capable of, beyond just temperament.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think when you are involved with a dog activity you also know people who have dealt with a particular breeder and have actually met some of their dogs etc. So there are many ways of checking out a particular breeder even if you can't go there. 

If you are looking for a pet it may be no issue finding a local breeder but if you are looking for a certain type of breeding (for example I wanted genetic obedience, and high hunt drive) then you may have to go further afield.


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> Well, I got one dog from a local breeder, visited, met the parents etc etc. and ended up with not a good dog. Another dog was chosen based on research and pedigree, I just went to pick the pup up at 8 weeks old, could have him shipped with the same result. The dog is a DREAM! Go figure, right?


Hey if it worked for you great but personally I dont see how you can realistically judge if a breeder is reputable and determine the temperament of the dogs they breed without visiting, cheking out the kennel and meeting the dogs.

Maybe I am just picky, but there have been a couple breeders that have come highly recommeded by multiple independent sources, they check out as active schutzhund helpers, GSD people on google, I talk to them and they are knowledgeable and appear honest, I get excited and am almost ready to put down a deposit without going there and I get there and I am thinking "You got to be kidding me right?"


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I understand where you're coming from and have had mixed results myself.

My oldest dog I did this, sight unseen, 740 miles away. (No ship, drove to pick her up. The breeder refused to ship.) But the breeder and I exchanged a great many emails, she asked me a bazillion questions, required an application and various agreements... etc and so on. When you communicate with a breeder to THAT extent, for weeks and weeks beforehand, before the pups are even BORN! you do get an idea what you're dealing with. She wanted to know *everything* about my lifestyle, the home conditions, etc. I told her I wanted a female and she said she'd match my lifestyle to the female pups' personalities. We were literally in touch every week. She responded to all my questions. You could just "tell" she was the real thing. (Sure, part of that is some blind faith.)

I did end up with a wonderful dog. 

THEN I guess I screwed up because I was too impatient, maybe too overconfident. I wanted a Shiba Inu. NOTHING in my area. I found one, 9 weeks or so old, about 300 miles away. I saw her pics, I wanted her. I acted too fast. The breeder was responsive, answered my questions, etc, but did NOT question MY lifestyle the way the other one did and that should've been a red flag. I just wanted that girl so much! I was impulsive and got in the car and drove to pick her up at ten weeks. She came home with parvo around day 5-6 after coming home. Almost died. Clearly she had it when I got her. She is purebred, she is beautiful, she is completely true to form for her breed standard. She's a very beautiful dog... but when I contacted the breeder about the parvo, I was told ok, you are welcome to have a dog from an upcoming litter if she dies. HUH? NO! I just wanted her to take care of the costs, to honor her health contract! She refused. She maintained that the dog must have gotten parvo AFTER coming to my home. Not possible. 

Sorry to go on so long, but I really do not think it is necessarily a bad thing to buy from a distance IF you have honestly good communication with that breeder and they are as thorough as my oldest dog's breeder was. Ideally, yes, visiting that breeder is best case scenario. But in my case, I was looking for breeds that were not common in my area, so I had little choice but to expand my area. And bottom line, never jump the gun. :blush:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I don't know. There are some breeders on this forum that I have "known" for 5-10 years and never met in person. I would feel comfortable buying a puppy from many of them.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think perhaps the big thing I have seen is you expect a facility like a boarding kennel then you find wooden fences, welded wire, gravel or dirt runs and think .... OMG....

But if you look at the dogs and how they are cared for and what the breeder does with them I think that is what counts. ... so the funky home-made agility equipment, the dirt road....all ok in my book. 

So what is it that you see when you go check out the breeder that is alarming you. The two dogs I got from nice homes with nice kennels with pristine properties were my most disappointing dogs.


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

I dont really want to get into details, but it is not dirt roads.....

If you personnally know a few people that have received dogs from a breeder and i am not talking about internet forum friends, people you know and know what they expect and tolerate in a dog and breeder and they have visited the breeder i would say that is as good as visiting the breeder.

I was just offering up some insight from experience.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, my experience is this: I talked to lots of breeders. Most were one phone call, because I didn't like what I heard on their end of it. I drove out to a couple. One was basically a puppy mill, she had 4 different breeds of dogs!! And she'd given me references, whom I'd all talked to that were happy with her! Finally, I found this one, fairly close, talked to 7-8 of their past clients, including a girl I graduated HS with 21 years ago (who was training her GSD she'd bought somewhere else for her 13 yo son with epilepsy as a seizure dog) and a former fellow Police officer f(rom the city of Kent) buddy of my brother's(that where he was an officer). I read the articles published locally about him. Talked to my vet about him. Went out and met him. Liked what I saw. I got the puppy I wanted, and so far he is EXACTLY what I wanted. He's a happy, stable, well-adjusted, sound in nerve and health pup that has drawn raves from the trainers and the vets. 

Then I get on here and someone starts blasting away at him and such. Saying titles don't mean anything. But everyone says to look at titles. 
So I contacted another breeder that gets mentioned on here quite a bit, and we had a frank discussion today. She was very tactful and gracious and basically told me there was a lot of backbiting in the GSD world. Especially when it comes to shows, clubs and competitions. She said people turn and say crap when someone's dog places over theirs...or maybe they didn't get hired for training...or someone chooses to do it differently. She advised me my breeder raised excellent pups, handled them well, and to enjoy my pup. Told me to ignore what others said and it would be apparent by now if his temperament was bad. She ALSO said *environment was everything*, even more so than breeding. That there was bad temperaments in working lines as well as show lines. Interestingly enough, showlines are more apt to recognize it and call it what it really is. Working lines like to make more excuses than just realizing it as poor nerve. I really liked her a lot. Will I go to her for my next one? Yes. She lives about 10 hours away from me, so is it convenient? No. Am I dissatisfied with the breeder I had this time? No. But I did like her. 

So it is still confusing to me. You can think you've done everything right, you've TALKED to people who have had the pups/dogs...done the training. And still people will question what your decision is.


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

All I am saying is, define for yourself what a reputable should be and go visit the breeder. I dont see how you can judge from emails, or phone calls or even recommendations unless it is from someone you are very close to and know their dogs. I dont want to get into details because I dont want to argue with people about what is reputable or not.

I am very picky about the temperment I want in my dog and that is one of the reasons I have considered an older puppy. I couldnt agree with Rocket Dog more on the statement that owners and breeders make excuses for their dogs bad behavior/nerves. Dont fall for it!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think you need to realize dogs are complex organisms and temperament has both a genetic and an environmental component. The only way to get a guarantee of what you want for sure is to get a young adult. 

I am not sure what you have seen that has led you to these conclusions. What experience do you have with evaluating dogs? At the very least do understand, going forward, we have a no breeder bashing policy if you have a specific issue with a specific breeder.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I'll sum this up for all....

99.9% of those shopping for a GS puppy, wouldn't know the first thing about evaluating for temperament, show line, hip cert, yada, yada, yada.
We go by our GUT. We get a feel for who we speak to. We look at the puppy, and see if we FEEL it in our gut. The OTHER .01% is educated, and experienced, and would know what to look for.

When choosing a breeder, the same rule applies. Not everyone has a breeder in their backyard. Not everyone has the ability to fly cross-country to go see a puppy. The most you can do, is take the referrals, look at the internet, and hope that that particular breeder has a "presence" in the GS world. I've gotten to know a breeder on FB. She posts EVERY DAY, news, pictures, and results from her shows, new puppy announcements, galleries of photos are updated DAILY of her dogs.
IMO, she has a presence, and it very much active in Shutzhund, and the care of her dogs.
I would buy from HER if I wanted a dog..... Because I have a good "feel" for her as breeder.
Plain and simple.

OTOH, she's in GA, and I wouldn't fly down there, UNLESS I was looking for a show dog for competition, and I KNEW how to evaluate.

OH, and the irony and coincidence of making this new friend on FB..... It turns out that she co-owns my pup's mother with the breeder I bought my pup from.
I realized this when I received the AKC papers, and her name was on the papers as co-owner.

This all came to light AFTER I purchased my GS. I had no idea who she was.

In case you're wondering, this is the breeder I'm referring to:

http://www.ohertannen.com


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I think you need to realize dogs are complex organisms and temperament has both a genetic and an environmental component. The only way to get a guarantee of what you want for sure is to get a young adult.
> 
> I am not sure what you have seen that has led you to these conclusions. What experience do you have with evaluating dogs? *At the very least do understand, going forward, we have a no breeder bashing policy if you have a specific issue with a specific breeder.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I understand what Brian is saying and agree with him. Every puppy I have ever purchased, except one (more about her in a minute), I drove to pick up the puppy. I was able to meet littermates, the sire and dam in several cases or at the minimum the dam, plus spend time with the breeder. I have driven to TX, VA, WI and IL. The one exception was a puppy from CA, but the breeder has been a friend for many years so I trusted their information about the pup, the sire and the dam. I also tend to do a lot of research on a breeder before I even contact them. 

I do think too many people buy puppies based on flashy websites, good sales pitches and great spin. Sometimes a trip across country isn't possible and the buyer does have to go with their gut. IMO, though, the buyers need to do far more research than they do and often first time buyers would be better off staying within driving distance. 

As a breeder I have sold puppies to people I have never met in person (only twice, actually), but these people came highly recommended to me. I had a woman drive here from AZ (2000 miles) so she could meet me in person, see the litter and meet my female.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Not too many people like the breeder where I got my puppy from but you know what, I have the perfect puppy, she's exactly what I wanted and what I asked for. She's energetic but can settle in the house, she's clever, super friendly towards people and other animals, she's a cuddle bug, she's confident, curious and nothing scares her. I have a great relationship with her breeder, he's a friend and someone I can talk to. He helped me by letting me take her home and make payments on her because I didn't have the money at the time to pay for her. Not too many people will do that for you. I am very grateful to him for letting me have my baby girl. :wub:

I forgot to mention that I chose him as my breeder before meeting him face to face, we had talked on the phone alot before I actually met him. I did go to visit him and brought my male with to meet him so he could get an idea of my male's temperment and so he could see what would match him and I best. He loved my male.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I hear this conversation over and over again... People choose breeders instead of choosing dogs. What is a reputable breeder, anyway?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> I hear this conversation over and over again... People choose breeders instead of choosing dogs. What is a reputable breeder, anyway?


Amen


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

so, you find a breeder who's dogs have all of the clearances
and titles. their dogs are well known on the big circuit and the
pedigrees are long. i'm confident if you buy a pup from
them you're getting one of the top pups. so, now you go
and visit the breeder and you see the parents and the pups.
do you really know enough to know what you're seeing???



BrianB said:


> All I am saying is, define for yourself what a reputable should be and go visit the breeder. I dont see how you can judge from emails, or phone calls or even recommendations unless it is from someone you are very close to and know their dogs. I dont want to get into details because I dont want to argue with people about what is reputable or not.
> 
> I am very picky about the temperment I want in my dog and that is one of the reasons I have considered an older puppy. I couldnt agree with Rocket Dog more on the statement that owners and breeders make excuses for their dogs bad behavior/nerves. Dont fall for it!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

BrianB said:


> I will tell you one thing, if i did decide to buy a dog from someone far away I would spend the $500-$1k on airfare/travel and go check out the breeder/dogs before I put a deposit down. I am going to spend the next 10 years with this dog and $1k to fly down and check out the breeder is a small price to pay.


Our last puppy was flown from one end of the country to the other - Connecticut to San Francisco. Never met the breeder or any of her dogs, BUT several people that I've known here on the board for several years train with the breeder and know her and her dogs very well. They are also very familiar with the kind of lifestyle I provide for my dogs through my posts on the board, and they had met the puppy we ended up getting. We briefly considered flying out to Connecticut and picking up Halo in person so we could meet her breeder, but it was the middle of January, during an ice storm. Not the best time for my first trip to the East Coast! 

We were very nervous about flying a puppy that far, but she got here safe and we adore her!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

BrianB said:


> One thing I have learned in my puppy search and my search for a reputable breeder is I would never buy a puppy from somewhere and have it shipped without visiting the breeder. I have had alot of people recommend breeders (not just on here, even trainers and vets in the area) and spoken to alot of breeders and you get there and it doesnt seem reputable. How can you verify a breeder is reputable without a visit? I am not going to name any names but the websites may be sharp and fancy and the breeder talks a good game but all I can say is go visit and see for yourself!!!!
> 
> It is the age old saying, the grass always appears greener on the other side!! You are better off with a local breeder you can check out, visit, meet the parents (or at least one) than going with some far away guy that comes highly recommended, has a nice website, and talks the talk!
> 
> Just my opinion!!


Just reviewing this initial post, I (duh) notice that you aren't asking opinions, aren't asking anything, just putting an opinion out there. Ok. 

You're kind of sounding a little bitter? about something here.

You simply cannot say that you are always better off to do it this way. In a perfect world, yes, the breeder is right down the street to visit. In a perfect world, you have the time and resources to fly across country to visit. 

But, as another poster said, sometimes you go on gut. You may fail, but I'll trust my gut over any flashy website. 

I can't say this isn't good advice for those searching for a pup, but to say this is the only way you can responsibly get a pup is not fair. Homework and tons of communication also can go a very long way.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I would buy and pup from Vom haus Ming or Tiekerhook in a minute, sight unseen!


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

chelle said:


> Just reviewing this initial post, I (duh) notice that you aren't asking opinions, aren't asking anything, just putting an opinion out there. Ok.
> 
> You're kind of sounding a little bitter? about something here.
> 
> ...


Ha - not bitter, just more dissappointed i guess in how hard it is to find the right pup and do the right thing when buying a pup. The easy thing would just be to go out and buy the first cute pup i see but i am not a newbee. So i will try and find the right one! Just trying to offer advice based on my experience.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> so, you find a breeder who's dogs have all of the clearances
> and titles. their dogs are well known on the big circuit and the
> pedigrees are long. i'm confident if you buy a pup from
> them you're getting one of the top pups. so, now you go
> ...


That's exactly what I'm saying.
99.9% won't know what they're seeing.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

BrianB said:


> Ha - not bitter, just more dissappointed i guess in how hard it is to find the right pup and do the right thing when buying a pup. The easy thing would just be to go out and buy the first cute pup i see but i am not a newbee. So i will try and find the right one! Just trying to offer advice based on my experience.


Brian,
Try these people:

German Shepherds "von den Oher Tannen" - German Shepherd puppies for sale - German Shepherd Dog breeder - Imported German Shepherd Puppies for sale - Imported adult German Shepherds and puppies available

They have a fresh litter, and many of their dogs are titled. I'm friends with them on FB, and they're obviously very proactive.

Get in touch with Nadia.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

BrianB said:


> Ha - not bitter, just more dissappointed i guess in how hard it is to find the right pup and do the right thing when buying a pup. The easy thing would just be to go out and buy the first cute pup i see but i am not a newbee. So i will try and find the right one! Just trying to offer advice based on my experience.


I understand. Although I DID buy my first sight-unseen, before I did commit, I talked to many breeders. Heck there was one just across town, but it didn't feel right at all. I didn't even bother to go meet. I passed over quite a few and I WAS a newbie. Maybe being that newbie did make me even more paranoid and intense on the search. I think my biggest failure was the second time around, I felt too secure in that I did so well the first time. Now, that's not to say she isn't a fine dog. She is. Totally breed standard in every way -- but DID come home with parvo and the breeder's handling of it was horrible. 

There's a big difference in going out and buying the first cute pup and working hard to find the right pup.  I mean, jet-setting around the country to meet pups and parents is awesome, but who can honestly do that?

But still, I respect your intensity and desire to find just the right one for you. And I hope you find him or her, soon!

Heck, my VERY first pup I bought from a petstore in the mall. Yep, I did it. That was in 1989-ish. Beautiful buff cocker spaniel. Very nice dog, beautiful dog, not the neurotic cocker than so many were then, but absolutely ridden with health problems. (RIP Coco Butter)


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