# Front Command



## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

so... I’m stumped as I’ve taught this before and Finn did learn it but at some point it has gone missing from his repertoire and I cannot get him to recall to a FRONT sitting position. He either runs around me or stops in front but insists on staying a foot or two back, and even when he comes right in at first he backs off to sit. Any suggestions would be appreciated, I’ve gone back to a chair to give him a chute between my legs and he can line up just fine it’s getting him to come in close. He won’t come in for a reward, sits back and gets frustrated then starts random actions to see if any work. I’ve tried luring him in with a treat and he stretches his nose but won’t move his butt or feet closer for anything!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You could start closer and use leash pressure.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

Bearshandler said:


> You could start closer and use leash pressure.


Tomorrows attempt will be that, thank you! I tried with my trainers suggestions today but I can tell he wasn’t getting it and most def was beyond working it out and straight to frustration.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Call him and pull him into the sit while backing up.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I used Dave Kroyer's method for teaching this. It would be totally worth you signing up for a couple of months to work thru that system that backchains the exercise. I love it. It really teaches the dog position and it teaches them to find the front and line up with you. Super handy when you are 15' feet off when you do your 30 paces.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

done any hand targeting with this dog?


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

Fodder said:


> done any hand targeting with this dog?


He knows that touch means nose to hand if that is what you’re referring to, it’s just the front command .. to me his brain is telling him to keep the space because even to step into him for position he shuffles back. I’m going to try today the first suggestion of working with the leash and see how we do. He goes from sitting back and keeping distance to frustration and launching himself into me. We will work through it eventually as I’m sure it’s me that is unknowingly doing something to confuse him.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I used Dave Kroyer's method for teaching this. It would be totally worth you signing up for a couple of months to work thru that system that backchains the exercise. I love it. It really teaches the dog position and it teaches them to find the front and line up with you. Super handy when you are 15' feet off when you do your 30 paces.


I will pit that on my list, thank you. We are working with an experienced trainer but my schedule and hers make it impossible to meet often. I run into stretches of working through some obstacles on my own lol


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe try sitting him then you step into position for a little while. Feed him slowly and calmly in that front position and calmly release him from it. Whether he won't hold that position from excitement or being uncomfortable there, try and take some time changing that before you look to different ways to bring him into it.

(Ah, I just noticed Jax mentioned backchaining.If you do watch that video, thats basically what I mean.)


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Maybe try sitting him then you step into position for a little while. Feed him slowly and calmly in that front position and calmly release him from it. Whether he won't hold that position from excitement or being uncomfortable there, try and take some time changing that before you look to different ways to bring him into it.
> 
> (Ah, I just noticed Jax mentioned backchaining.If you do watch that video, thats basically what I mean.)


we just spent a few minutes at it in the yard with a leash, I used a ball instead food and got him to come in close and sit... it was short lived in duration lol but def the right direction. I will take that small win for today. The leash was def key to keep him close and direct him where I wanted.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

finn'smom said:


> He knows that touch means nose to hand if that is what you’re referring to, it’s just the front command ..


well, not exactly... i don’t teach hand targeting to be dependent on any verbal command, but that doesn’t mean your method is invaluable in this situation.

removing the front position from the formal recall sequence... i would just work on targeting excercises, with your hand/fist placed directly in front of (touching) your thighs then feed in this exact spot as well. you can progress by taking a few steps back yourself... it reinforces his movement towards you, also, he can’t back away from you if you’re backing away from him (well, he can, but it’s less likely if you develop a strong history in having to come all the way to you for the reward). i like dogs to push into me a bit. feed multiple treats in quick succession if you have to in order to keep him there.

then work backwards from that point... adding in the sit, then the recall.

right now your sequence is tainted and sounds pretty well rehearsed... so you gotta dissect it for a bit and strengthen things individually. if your dog knows “wait” and he’ll get into position briefly... anticipate him backing up and ask him to wait.

reeling him in with the leash can be a quick fix as well, but if he hasn’t been taught or doesn’t respond fluidity to leash pressure, you could end up creating more conflict.

i’m curious... what comes after the proper front? are you tossing a toy or something that he’s feeling the need to anticipate running off again.

anyway, i hope all that was clear.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

finn'smom said:


> we just spent a few minutes at it in the yard with a leash, I used a ball instead food and got him to come in close and sit... it was short lived in duration lol but def the right direction. I will take that small win for today. The leash was def key to keep him close and direct him where I wanted.


I would get rid of the leash and backchain. A good solid front has a lot of little components. I failed miserably teaching Seger this and used Kroyer's method for Faren. I'm super happy with it. It doesn't just teach the front but also teaches them to know how to find front.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

finn'smom said:


> we just spent a few minutes at it in the yard with a leash, I used a ball instead food and got him to come in close and sit... it was short lived in duration lol but def the right direction. I will take that small win for today. The leash was def key to keep him close and direct him where I wanted.


One problem with the leash is opposition reflex. In some ways you can actually build his resistance to being there. The excitement of the ball can build some anticipation that you can use later by how you reward him, but when he's having trouble with the position you probably want to concentrate on ending the conflict of just being there first. Get a reset on it or it will probably always come back.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

Fodder said:


> well, not exactly... i don’t teach hand targeting to be dependent on any verbal command, but that doesn’t mean your method is invaluable in this situation.
> 
> removing the front position from the formal recall sequence... i would just work on targeting excercises, with your hand/fist placed directly in front of (touching) your thighs then feed in this exact spot as well. you can progress by taking a few steps back yourself... it reinforces his movement towards you, also, he can’t back away from you if you’re backing away from him (well, he can, but it’s less likely if you develop a strong history in having to come all the way to you for the reward). i like dogs to push into me a bit. feed multiple treats in quick succession if you have to in order to keep him there.
> 
> ...


I absolutely get what you’re saying, it was put on our list of things to work on by the trainer more so as part of a proper recall(like you said), rather than the uncontrolled return but circle around me silliness that keeps appearing. I’m def seeing that before I can work it into a recall command that I need to make him comfortable there and make it habit. He’s good with leash pressure, guiding him towards me today didn’t create conflict but it did aim him at the right way to get the reward rather than his random sit and down and launch sequence that he’d go through before. I hope I’m explaining myself correctly as well, we got a bit backwards with Covid stupidity pushing back training but we will get there.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

I am listening to the suggestions, we will go back to basics... target hand with treat near body until that’s solid and work from there. I’m going to need to up my treat game  keep him interested. I appreciate all of the input even when I discuss rather than just say OK, I like knowing the background to the suggestions and determining where I went wrong.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i think one thing that’s cool, which isn’t always the case, is that all of the suggestions provided so far compliment each other and are useful at different stages in the process. so often ppl get largely conflicting information which can be difficult to decipher.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

I concur, should have let it sit 30 more mins before trying with a leash and toy but we didn’t do any damage and he was all over getting up close for a tennis ball lol. I can read through all of this and understand the process and easily work back to what I let slide along the way.


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