# Himmelhoch



## Dillinger (Apr 7, 2010)

Does anyone have any information/opinion on vom Himmelhoch Shepherds? Vom Himmelhoch Shepherds

We are trying to narrow down our top breeder choices... You can view my previous thread of our search for a breeder close to Erie, PA: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/133607-pa-breeders-erie.html

Thank you!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

They have working dogs and some pretty darn good dogs in the pedigree. 

Looking good to me.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> They have working dogs and some pretty darn good dogs in the pedigree.


Maybe I am confused but it looks more like showlines to me then working lines.

What are you looking to do with your dog?? Companion, AKC, Schutzhund, Agility???


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

DinoBlue said:


> Maybe I am confused but it looks more like showlines to me then working lines.
> 
> What are you looking to do with your dog?? Companion, AKC, Schutzhund, Agility???


No, Kirschental, Doellenwiese, von der boesen Nachbarschaft, Karthago and Maineiche are definitely working lines 

edit: totally forgot about vom Salztalblick.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Kirschental is show lines, except in rare cases where one might see a show/work cross (as appears to be the case with the dam of some of their dogs, a Kirschental bitch that was half show, half work).

Their main male who sired most of the dogs on their website appears to be mostly working lines. The other dogs not sired by him are show lines. The dogs sired by him are show/work crosses.

Not that it makes any difference one way or the other with respect to the quality of the dogs, but dogs shouldn't be mislabled working lines when they're show lines, and vice versa.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Kirschental is show lines, except in rare cases where one might see a show/work cross (as appears to be the case with the dam of some of their dogs, a Kirschental bitch that was half show, half work).
> 
> Their main male who sired most of the dogs on their website appears to be mostly working lines. The other dogs not sired by him are show lines. The dogs sired by him are show/work crosses.
> 
> Not that it makes any difference one way or the other with respect to the quality of the dogs, but dogs shouldn't be mislabled working lines when they're show lines, and vice versa.


I was referring to the dogs in the pedigree and Uwe vom Kirschental is working line if I am not mistaken  actually one of the most popular working lines out there right along with Troll von der boesen Nachbarschaft, Yoschi von der Doellenwiese *son of troll von der boesen Nachbarschaft and the Maineiche Kennel. 

That dog, Bosco vom Harisburg has got some very good working dogs in his pedigree and that's what I was referring to.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Here is a question, is there a symbol or code so people can tell show from working in the pedigree? Or is it how the name is placed, or do you just need to know the kennels in the name to be able to tell from years of researching and being in the GSD community.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

HeidiW said:


> Here is a question, is there a symbol or code so people can tell show from working in the pedigree? Or is it how the name is placed, or do you just need to know the kennels in the name to be able to tell from years of researching and being in the GSD community.


It is the name itself, often the kennel. As evident in this thread, Kirschental can be trickier because going back a few gens, there are working lines and Karl has done a LOT of working/show cross. But other than that, when you see the name of the kennel or the dog if it's well known, that's how you know.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

HeidiW said:


> Here is a question, is there a symbol or code so people can tell show from working in the pedigree? Or is it how the name is placed, or do you just need to know the kennels in the name to be able to tell from years of researching and being in the GSD community.


It's the kennels itself and the dogs as well as the experience from years of listening to my parents. 

Uwe vom Kirschental, Troll von der boesen Nachbarschaft, Lord vom Gleisdreieck, Gildo vom Koerbelbach, Blacky vom neuen Lande, Umsa vom Bungalow, Ferro vom Zeutner Himmelreich, Greif zum Lahntal, Mink vom Haus Wittfeld (and some more) are absolutely the most popular working lines that are out there. These dogs are the foundation of todays working lines. If you find those dogs in the pedigree it means that the dog comes from German working line.


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## Dillinger (Apr 7, 2010)

DinoBlue said:


> What are you looking to do with your dog?? Companion, AKC, Schutzhund, Agility???


It will mainly be a companion dog, but we plan on extensive obedience training...


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yes, when you get back many years many of the Kirschental dogs would be considered "working" lines. U-litter is very common in working line pedigrees.

But the modern Kirschental dogs are show lines (with the very occasional show/work cross). The dogs with the Kirschental kennel name that this breeder has are the modern Kirschental dogs, in other words show lines.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

HeidiW said:


> Here is a question, is there a symbol or code so people can tell show from working in the pedigree? Or is it how the name is placed, or do you just need to know the kennels in the name to be able to tell from years of researching and being in the GSD community.


The only way to be 100% sure is to view the pedigree, and that requires knowing which bloodlines and kennels fall into which camp.

Though if one looks at titles/ratings, competitions the dog has participated in, and then just the overall color and structure of the dog, someone who knows the common trends for each type in those regards will more often then not be able to accurately guess without seeing the pedigree. Though pedigree is the only thing that is foolproof.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

So I thought it was from experience, can't be easy now can it. Good information. thanks.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Dillinger, Kirschental dogs even today are wonderful, for the qualities you say you are looking for, i.e. a companion dog which will do well in Obedience. Karl Fuller has been a working shepherd all his life as well as one of Germany's foremost breeders, and he has used his own dogs (including the showlines) in the fields on a regular basis. For that type of work you need a dog that loves to be with people and is highly biddable and easy to train. vom Himmelhoch would certainly be a place to start - you could also check out Alpenhof GSD's in Ontario,Canada. That breeder has imported from Karl (mostly bitches) for many years. 
www.alpenhofgsd.ca
________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Alta-Tollhaus has the Kirschental lines as well as 
Karen Priest w/ Traumhof Home


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

HeidiW said:


> So I thought it was from experience, can't be easy now can it. Good information. thanks.


It is from experience. It isn't easy to get into the lines. I grew up with it and that is the only reason I know about these lines is because my dad was the handler from Gildo vom Koerbelbach and we had to listen to the Shepherd talk from early morning until late at night and sometimes we kids were like "Don't they have anything else to talk about?" but I am glad they did. 

I don't know everything and I am glad that people like Chris set me right when I am wrong about something because things have sure changed a lot and once I got more and more involved with horses and other things I didn't listen as much to the dog talk anymore and there is gap that I have to work through BUT I know what to look for in a pedigree.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Kirschental dogs of today are not the Kirschental dogs of the past as Heidi and Chris attest to, but they are very nice dogs for your stated intent. I was in a club a few years back with three Kirschental dogs brought directly from Karl. (Black and Red) Two of the dogs were very nice in temperament, one was very nervy and weak. All three very very pretty dogs. I think Kirschental lines are very very nice lines for people who want a very nice dog for family.


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## Dillinger (Apr 7, 2010)

We are very close to putting a deposit down on a Himmelhoch puppy... Does anyone have any last comments on this breeder?

I really appreciate everyone's help!


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