# Orijen LBP Too "Rich"?



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I know! Blasphemer! 

Here's the blah, blah, blah...


> Quote: GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
> Crude Protein (min.) 40.0%
> Crude Fat (min.) 16.0%
> Crude Fiber (max.) 3.0%
> ...


from: http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/products/puppyLargeFeeding.aspx

Trying to figure out if it's a return of the parasites, too rich food (whatever that means), too much exercise, the heat or some other factor I haven't thought of giving soft/squirty SMELLY poop, and some formed. Depending. 

I've been giving pumpkin and probiotic. Wondering if maybe they aren't large breed puppies! Who knows! But their little systems were kind of sickly/stressed and not sure if puppies do have nice formed, rolling balls of poop like the adult dogs do? I can't remember. 

There's a lot of stuff in that food. Any thoughts from the







people? Any other foods that people recommend for puppies? I've fed Pinnacle foods before to puppies...good results...can't remember the poops so much. So must be good?

Thanks!

ETA-what is the







Calcium to Phosphorus ratio that I want?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

If the kids can't eat it, then they can't eat it. My kids can't eat Evo either. Too rich. Or, too *something.* 

Yes, puppies do have nice poop. They should. 

Keep in mind that real meat (like we barfy people feed) is approx 70-80% water (depending what sort of meat). THEN that raw tri-tip (sirloin) is mostly protein (with some fat, a smidge of calcium, etc). Real veggies and fruit are water-based too.

But it's water first and foremost. Kibble isn't water. So it aint so gentle. When we load it up with so much protein and all that other stuff -- currants, really? -- it can be hard on the pup's system.

I don't know if it's all the DENSE protein (I tend to think not), or all the other stuff. But with my sensitive system kids (and I lump pups into this group), I tend to think that less is more. I don't know what fenugreek is, and I've managed to live my entire life without consuming saskatoon berries (unless my Canadian friends snuck some into a meal I was eating without my knowledge). I just think that my pups can wait to eat that sort of stuff until they develop iron stomachs. 

With my GSDs, yes I realize, I may be waiting a long time for iron stomachs to develop









Was that an answer?









Are you looking for a kibble, or did you just decide to go all Fancy Pants on us and try the Orijen?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

calcium 1 to phosphorus 1.3 -1.5ish. 

That's the "ideal" ratio (naturally occuring in bone is 1.3-1.4). A bit lower in puppy food is ok. I don't like anything higher than 1.6.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I like Pinnacle Adult for pups. I recommend it a lot. The trout and oats. It's been a while since I've tried to read your mind,







but my guess is that if you don't remember, it was probably unremarkable, ie: good.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Oh they've been fancy pants eating the Orijen LBP for a while and I am not getting the bounce I would like. More of a log/splat. Or pile. No mucous though (I've been thinking of SIBO). 

I am thinking simpler may be better for now. Even though you read it and say this is the best I can do for them (other than marrying Sam the Butcher-or our local equivalent, Ivan). 

I am going to have to open the spreadsheets and start looking. Suggestions welcomed! 
Who does eat fenugreek? I need to google that! I would like to try those berries. 

Thanks for the info on calciumhos. Annoying I can't remember it ever. 

And what happens if you feed a dog who may turn out to be mid-size a lbp food? These guys could be part Pomeranian for all I know!

Thanks again.


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## Spitfire22 (Jun 9, 2005)

Could be too rich. Why not try the Acana 3 fish (no grain), it is made by Champion pet food who make Orijen 6 fish. The 3 fish is grain free but with lower protein, hence 3 fish.

I believe its called Pacifica 3 fish.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I would go super simple like CA Natural . If they thrive on that, then you know it's a matter of simplicity vs. too much good stuff. Then you can work way back up the Lola Granola Scale of Complexity. 

If you still get splats, then we might need to look elsewhere for causation.

Princess Beagle stayed on CA Natural chicken as a wee one (til she hit about 15 lbs) because she seemed unable to tolerate anything richer. Now, she can eat anything (Remind me to tell you about how I walked into our RV on our last trip to see her with one piece of pizza in her mouth. Dh left the whole pizza on the driver's seat. No, she didn't stand there and eat out of the box. That would be rude. She just took her one piece and lay on her bed to eat it politely.







)

Where was I? Ah yes, some stomachs are more sensitive, but I think they will develop fine if we treat them gently; they won't get all the weird ailments that we see in numerous adult dogs. But as long as we continue to insult the GI tract, we can injure it. Then, our pups will never be able to enjoy a slice of pizza. 

So, I'd try CA Natural adult.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANAnd what happens if you feed a dog who may turn out to be mid-size a lbp food? These guys could be part Pomeranian for all I know!


Nothing detrimental would happen. In fact, look at the difference between Orijen LBP and Adult and you'll see that there really isn't much difference. Even the calcium and phosphorous levels are DARNED close, and the Adult is well within the range for puppies.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Oh, I forgot, I fed Pinnacle and it was the only food other than Orijen that I tried (out of the 9 different foods I tried, albeit some were crappy foods altogether) that settled my pup's stomach. I didn't have to to the Trout formula, either, as the Chicken and Oats worked just fine.

As far as you feeding pumpkin is concerned, pumpkin should really stop the soft poops. Are you sure they don't have coccidia or something, because that would be something that would cause bad poops that even the pumpkin (miracle fiber) would not be able to resolve. And, coccidia is something that can hang around where the pups live for quite ahwile, thus, the pups can get it over and over again, you know what I mean?

Just a thought.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I like the Acana-my adult dogs are now eating the lamb (can't remember the fancy pants names on any of these foods). They've been on it a couple of weeks from the Orijen regular, and they seem to be doing well (knock wood). 

But I think I am going to go backwards out of Lola Granola (OMG







) territory all the way to something simple. I looked at Wellness, Fromm, WolfCub, Acana, and the Pinnacle and the California Natural is the blandest of the bland. YAY! I would imagine with all the rice in it, it will cake things right up (ewww). 

*Puppy Lamb-look at the C/P thing:*
Calcium 2.209 % 
Phosphorous 1.339 % 
Crude Protein (min) 26 % 
Crude Fat (min) 16 % 
Crude Fiber (max) 2 % 
Moisture (max) 10 % 
535 kcal/cup (4.44 oz = 1 cup) 
http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/default.asp?panel=ga&id=4

I am thinking of going with Lamb over Chicken?

*But the Puppy Chicken C/P:*
Calcium 1.358 % 
Phosphorous 0.924 % 
Crude Protein (min) 26 % 
Crude Fat (min) 16 % 
Crude Fiber (max) 1.5 % 
Moisture (max) 10 % 
466 kcal/cup (4.4 oz = 1 cup) 
http://www.californianaturalpet.com/products/default.asp?panel=na&id=1252

Huh, puppy food is kind of fatty. 

Though that *Pinnacle* is always so tempting: http://www.breeders-choice.com/dog_products/pinnacle_dog_trout.htm Too much stuff though? Their ratio: 
Calcium Bones / Teeth / Muscle 1.00 % 
Phosphorus Bones / Teeth / Muscle 0.75 
Crude Protein not less than 22.0% 
Crude Fat not less than 10.0% 
Crude Fiber not more than 4.0% 
Moisture not more than 10.0% 
Metabolizable Energy (calculated) 405 kcal/cup 

Then I started looking at the CN adult formulas...and got confused. 

*Adult Lamb:*
Calcium 2.14 % 
Phosphorous 1.33 % 
Crude Protein (min) 21 % 
Crude Fat (min) 11 % 
Crude Fiber (max) 2 % 
Moisture (max) 10 % 
430 kcal/cup (3.8 oz = 1 cup)

*Adult Chicken: *
Calcium 1.507 % 
Phosphorous 1.029 % 
Crude Protein (min) 21 % 
Crude Fat (min) 11 % 
Crude Fiber (max) 1.5 % 
Moisture (max) 10 % 
511 kcal/cup (4.4 oz = 1 cup) 

I don't think I want to get them going on fish yet? So if I did look at Pinnacle should it be chicken/oats? Okay, think I will stick with the plain of the plain. 

So there it all is. Someone make my decision. I will double guess it, I am sure, because I am having that analysis paralysis, but I would like to hear the pro/con between chicken or lamb, adult or puppy. 

The poopy pups say thanks for the help. And I say thank you too!

I thought, eh, just go with the best stuff, but I STILL end up having to research!









Mr. LeadFoot-yes-the parasites/worms have me concerned. They were LOADED with all sorts of ugly things (though luckily not all the bad stuff a puppy can have). They got Marquis for the coccidia, and then over the past 2 months got treated for hooks, whips, rounds, and giardia (which they had a ton of in their second fecal-but still room for the coccidia to







to the tech). I took a fecal in last week and it was clear. BUT, I know that doesn't necessarily mean that they are clear. I may take another one in...


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

The one thing I really liked about the Pinnacle is that it was not a very rich food. Honestly, the ONLY reason I switched to Orijen was because Orijen has very good amounts of glucosamine and chondroitin). But, if I were to ever again see digestion issues I would switch back to Pinnacle in a heartbeat.

FWIW, I switched 100% immediately, and the very first poop after her first Pinnacle meal was solid.

You know, I know this might sound crazy, but here's a good way to see if it's food-related or not. Get a small bag of Eukanuba. If the stools firm up, the chance are HIGH that it is indeed a food incompatibility and not something worse. I'm not saying to stay on the Eukanuba, just use it as a test, and potentially a stomach-calmer. I did just that, and I only needed to feed it for 1 week.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think I'll get a little bag of Pinnacle with the least ingredients-maybe as the next food after if the CN works well. Any thoughts on the California Natural formula I should try? 

I definitely want the puppies to be able to enjoy pizza in their lives.









And if I had to yes, I would try the Euk! 

Thanks for the help!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I'd go with chicken. 

Before you buy Eukanuba







, you could do the same thing by putting the pups on a bland diet -- chicken, rice, perhaps a smidge of boiled sweet potato. 

That's why I recommend chicken formula. How often does anyone recommend boiled lamb as part of a bland diet?









Also, then you can go from CN Chicken to Pinnacle Chicken and it should be an easier transition. Pinnacle doesn't make a lamb formula to the best of my knowledge... (although I haven't checked this month...)


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Maybe in Greece? 

Okay that's a plan. Adult or puppy? Thanks!

They had a couple formed then played and splat. They poop way more than they eat. I am pretty sure!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Adult. 

I think that the GI tract is a closed system; technically, you can't poop more than you eat/drink. Perhaps they are sneaking pizza and gyros on the side?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That would explain the pizza boxes...

I need to take away their phones I guess.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I would. Those phones have video cameras. You wouldn't believe the stuff I've seen them upload on Youtube.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Well, they don't have the phones, and I deleted all their videos! SCANDALOUS, those little puppies!

I went today and got the CN Adult Chicken. Rosa went too. She helped me-she was so well behaved it was scary. The clerk warned me that she could get worse as she got older (like reverse puppy).









I am doing 50-50 with the Orijen as kind of a quick transition? A few days of that...

I am thinking their poop will be lighter in color with that food. IF it's formed 7-8 times out of 10 I will be very happy! Right now it goes from formed to lump to splat and back again throughout the day...

Thanks for the help all-keep your







guy ready to dance (knock wood).


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANThey had a couple formed then played and splat.


I remember when my pup was eating food that didn't completely agree with her, that her poops often started out formed, than went soft at the end. I also remember that when she got all worked up from playing, they would be a mess. But, all that stopped when I found Pinnacle, as well as Orijen.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

What is in that Eukanuba that makes perfect poops?? I can't get people not to feed it as they they think perfect poop equals perfect food. 

Eukanuba puts coat enhancing supplements in and this also convinces my friends because a shiny nice coat must mean quality food. 

My pup does sometimes get a bit loose on the Origen. If I feed less he is fine, but I am a bit of an erratic feeder due to training. The loosish poops at times have not concerned me. It is not all the time, most of the time nicely formed. 

I am sure that there are some real decent foods out there that make better poops if that is desired. Not over feeding a growing pup and not over doing calcium and phosphorus are probably important. 

I just know that there are foods I don't feed even though I would get a shiny coat and lovely poops! 

Course, raw made the loveliest poops of all!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I've actually switched off of Orjien to Evo Red. I've discovered that my dog does WAY better on red meat-based kibble than chicken-based. For example, her poops are now perfect, AND the BIG BONUS is that instead of 6 cups per day to maintain her weight, I only need 3.5 cups per day. I was going to wait on Orijen's new Red formula, but at US$80 a bag, I'll pass! :-(

Incidentally, Instinct is also coming out with a red meat soon, so their are soon going to be several other quality red meat options besides Orijen (US$80 is utterly ridiculous).


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## SWCC50 (Jun 21, 2009)

careful with evo. everyone at my work who has gone through nutrition tries to get people off of it. due to the 42% protein levels and the need of 6 cups of water per cup of food. or it can cause kidney problems


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I don't understand the comment. Please elaborate, as there are quite a few different foods out there with as high protein levels, at 40%. Off the top of my head I can think of:

Orijen
Pinnacle Peak
Instinct
Canidae

Besides, I would think high protein shouldn't be a problem for an animal that would normally eat a diet that is very high in protein.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Swcccareful with evo. everyone at my work who has gone through nutrition tries to get people off of it. due to the 42% protein levels and the need of 6 cups of water per cup of food. or it can cause kidney problems


high protein levels do not cause kidney problems in healthy dogs. many large breed puppies have been thriving on Orijen for more than 2 years without any problems with kidney function, and it has almost the same level of protein % as EVO. the main difference is that Orijen has more controlled levels of minerals such as Phosphorus and Ca. (which is not a kidney issue, anyway)

for that reason, EVO, is wholly inappropriate for gsd pups (same goes for Instinct and most other grainless foods). ive talked to Natura reps who always try to steer large breed pup owners away from EVO.


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## SWCC50 (Jun 21, 2009)

so why are all the people at my work saying that. and trying to switch everyone away from EVO.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Swccso why are all the people at my work saying that. and trying to switch everyone away from EVO.


maybe you should ask them.

probably because they get regurgitated outdated, internet hysteria type information that high protein is bad for pups , which initially came from studies on rats, not canines, and utilized very low quality protein sources. there is no science indicating healthy dogs cannot handle higher protein levels, especially from high quality meat sources.

at any rate, it is good if they are pushing large breed pup owners away from it because EVO and most other grain free foods are not an appropriate food for still growing large breed pups. (but that has nothing to do with the protein levels)


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I agree. From the results I've seen, Evo's a darned good food. Evo now has a fish forumla, too. I may switch to that next time around for a rotation. Protein is nice and high (42%) in the fish, just like the red, and I like the fact that it has decent levels of glucosamine and chondroitin. The only marginal downside is that it has less calories per cup - fish:456 vs. red meat:527 = 15% less. I guess I could cut back her work by 15% everyday to compensate, and then I would get 15% more rest myself! Hmmmmm....


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

$80 for a bag of dog food is rediculous...i dont pay more for dog food that i would in a fine dined restaraunt, but then again my dog does great on a mediocre dog food. there are plenty of good quality dog foods for half that price.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2$80 for a bag of dog food is rediculous...i dont pay more for dog food that i would in a fine dined restaraunt, but then again my dog does great on a mediocre dog food. there are plenty of good quality dog foods for half that price.


?????????

how do you compare one outing at a restaurant to a whole months (or more) worth of dog food? while i agree that their are some ok foods for $40 (at 30 lbs), my dog cannot handle grains at all, so id love a list of all the grain free dog foods that cost $40 for a 30 lb bag.

unfortunately, meat is the priciest ingredient in dog food and grain is one of the cheapest.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: roxy84
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2$80 for a bag of dog food is rediculous...i dont pay more for dog food that i would in a fine dined restaraunt, but then again my dog does great on a mediocre dog food. there are plenty of good quality dog foods for half that price.
> ...


the only grain free i have fed was Blue Wilderness which was around $48 for a 26lb bag and it would last me a month. if your dog does not handle grains then i guess your only option would be to feed grain free obviously. but still, if my dog was not an easy keeper and i had to feed a dog food that was up around the $80 a bag range, i would switch to raw...

which kind of grains does your dog not do well on? corn, wheat etc? all of the obove??

i feed a dog food that gets 3 or 4 stars on dog food analysis. but thats somebody elses opinion if you ask me and the food has no corn, wheat, soy, and no bi products. it costs me $37 for a 40lb bag.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

ive found plenty of grainless foods that are working great for my dog (she doesnt seem to handle any grains). i was just saying that there are really no grain free choices in the $40 range. (Blue Wilderness isnt grain free, though it does appear to have little grain content). 

i agree that $80 is excessive for 30 lbs of food and have already started incorporating some raw into the diet because of the ever rising costs of grain free foods.

i envy those who can feed grains because there are plenty of reasonably priced foods of that nature.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: roxy84
> 
> i envy those who can feed grains because there are plenty of reasonably priced foods of that nature.


i wish i could afford to feed the "high quality" kibbles.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I haven't compared really but even though the Orijen is pricey, I don't feed much of this and have to watch to keep dogs weight down. I am pretty sure it is really not that great an increase in actual cost here. Feeding 2 GSDs, 1 Catahoula and one puppy.

When I can get raw at a good price they get that too. I just bought some Honest Kitchen to use with the raw.


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## Superhero (May 15, 2010)

I'm wondering if the Orijen LBP might be too rich for my 3 month old as well. She's had cowpie poops and sometimes greasy/mucousy poops since she was 8 weeks old. When I give her a raw meal her poops firm right up but as soon as she starts getting her kibble they get soft again.


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## Cluemanti (Jun 25, 2010)

Was wondering why this thread was back up.

But how much are you feeding your pup?


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## Superhero (May 15, 2010)

2.25 - 2.5 cups per day. I cut back from 2.5-3.0 cups per day and haven't noticed much of a difference. There was a reduction in 2 stage poops though, which was good.


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## dsunnym1 (Jul 1, 2010)

Superhero said:


> 2.25 - 2.5 cups per day. I cut back from 2.5-3.0 cups per day and haven't noticed much of a difference. There was a reduction in 2 stage poops though, which was good.


Having the same issue with my 11 wk old pup. I really hope he will adjust cause it's such a good food!


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## Superhero (May 15, 2010)

I know what you mean. I don't want to go 100% raw due to logistical issues and I haven't yet decided on an alternative to the Orijen LBP. She's almost finished with a 30lbs bag of the LBP so when that is about out I'm going to switch her to something else.

Of course, all this assumes that her stool sample is clean. If she's got a parasite or some other issue then obviously I'll see to that before I go switching foods.

I'm starting to think that this will not be the case, because if it were then she would have poop issues regardless of what she is eating. In her case, raw food firms things right up and produces nearly odorless, normal sized, solid poops.





dsunnym1 said:


> Having the same issue with my 11 wk old pup. I really hope he will adjust cause it's such a good food!


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## dsunnym1 (Jul 1, 2010)

I've had my pup tested 3 times for parasites and all were clean! In my case he has been on the Orijen since less then a month. I'm hoping time will heal, especially since I'm on a brand new bag, as u know is not cheap!


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Fenugreek is an herb/spice so it's probably added just for flavor.


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## Superhero (May 15, 2010)

It's actually a pretty good source of potassium too. It's also been shown to lower fasting glucose levels, and in humans can really help keep bad cholesterol under control.

Now, I'm not sure how much that applies to our dogs, but it sounds good. :wild:





paulag1955 said:


> Fenugreek is an herb/spice so it's probably added just for flavor.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Superhero said:


> It's actually a pretty good source of potassium too. It's also been shown to lower fasting glucose levels, and in humans can really help keep bad cholesterol under control.
> 
> Now, I'm not sure how much that applies to our dogs, but it sounds good. :wild:


Really? That's interesting. If I had my book on medicinal herbs handy rather than stored in the garage, I might have known that!


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## Superhero (May 15, 2010)

I had to google it to find out. 





paulag1955 said:


> Really? That's interesting. If I had my book on medicinal herbs handy rather than stored in the garage, I might have known that!


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