# 11 week old growls and barks at strangers



## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Hi,

First post, great informative forum here.

We have an 11 week old bitch, we got her at 9 weeks from the breeder. When we went to see her at 7 weeks at the breeder she came up to us, was really friendly and confident. Met both the mother and father, dad just wanted to play with us, mother was a bit reserved. Hip scores great on both mother and father, liked the environment the puppies came from. 

When she first arrived with us she was friendly to everyone, visitors family etc. she has bonded amazingly well with me, my wife and the two kids. The kids pick her up, carry her around and she submits to all behaviour. Really submissive to my wife, always lays on her back for her when she comes in from work, just wants to spend time with all the family and is very affectionate. I work from home and so spend 24/7 with her and spend a lot of time playing, teaching her etc. She already knows commands for down, sit and recall. she knows the difference between her ball, her rope and her kong and will collect whichever item you ask upon request.

Basically what I am saying is she is a bright loving fantastic dog, however she is really wary of strangers and will back herself into a corner and growl and bark at any visitors she doesn't know. Unfortunately none of the vets near me use the same brand of vacs that she got when at the breeder so we have had to start her vacs again and she can't go out and socialise until this Saturday. we have loads of guests and visitors and nothing has happened that I can put my finger on to change from being friendly to everyone, to being nervous and aggressive.

I am a little concerned as to why this trait has developed and the best way to deal with it. I ignore her nervousness and ask guests to ignore her until she is ready but with having young kids, their friends love her and really want to pet her and be with her, which leads to a lot of stress on the puppies part.

Really I am looking for a bit of reassurance that she will be able to be socialised out of this because it is new territory to me and 11 weeks seems very young to get fearful and aggressive to strangers.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

If she's backing up into corners and basically trying to hide from strangers, it sounds like it's out of fear. 

Have your friends ignore her, as attempting to pet her will make her feel cornered and scare her even more. Have them toss little bits of food so she understands that their presence is a good thing. Eventually, after she's fine with that, you can move on. 

If you can't get kids and such to leave her alone, then put her away if you know they'll stress her out.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Hi,

yes it is definitely fear, no doubt about it. Like I say I do try to get people to ignore her and I ignore her fearful behaviour and reward social behaviour. I will maybe crate her when groups of kids arrive. 5 nine year old girls can be very noisy.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Even if she is charging them it could be and probably is fear. I have a fear aggressive 2 year old who overreacted to strangers since day 1. Disagree with the behavior which may be nerve related (not fixable but manageable). My dog must be in a down stay if strangers are approaching or coming to our door. We try to provide treats to strangers entering our yard/home. He is not allowed to approach or interact until he's calm (5 minutes seems like forever). BTW,we socialized him with 6-10 dogs a day everyday since his first days here and an equal amount of people. He can't be trusted,ever,though he is usually very calm when we meet people,other dogs outside.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Your puppy is a baby. Teach your children and friends to treat her with respect and give her space. She is not a toy or stuffed animal to be picked up and handled. Start over with her and help her to feel safe and not overwhelmed. Let her come to you (as much as you can) rather than approaching her.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Hi Paddy,

I am fully aware she is not a toy or stuffed animal. She has no issues with my family or me at all, she greets everyone with great joy, loves to be with them and petted and wants to spend as much time as she can close and playing with all of us, including the young ones. I have no doubt she feels safe at home, she plays tug of war, loves her ball and shows no fear or nervousness at all and if she wants her own space she is given it/ (although she very rarely want it).

Also as stated I request all my friends ignore her until she is happy to come to them, which they do but 9 year old girls don't understand as well as adults and can crowd her even though I try to avoid it. 

However if anyone outside of our close family group approach her she gets very nervous and barks at them. I also have regular couriers and such coming and going from the property 2-3 times a day, which she will also bark at.

I am far from new at owning dogs or puppies and chose carefully from a good breeder with well known dogs and hip scores all the way up to the great grandparents. I met both parents of the puppy and both had a good temperament. this is the first time I have had a puppy that shows fear aggression at such a young age and I can guarantee she has not had any negative experiences too influence her in that way.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

studio1one said:


> Hi Paddy,
> 
> I am fully aware she is not a toy or stuffed animal. She has no issues with my family or me at all, she greets everyone with great joy, loves to be with them and petted and wants to spend as much time as she can close and playing with all of us, including the young ones. I have no doubt she feels safe at home, she plays tug of war, loves her ball and shows no fear or nervousness at all and if she wants her own space she is given it/ (although she very rarely want it).
> 
> ...


I went through the exact same thing. Paid $3000 for a pup from a breeder that I had purchased an extraordinary pup from 12 years prior. Second day home (8 weeks old) he started frantically barking,hackles up at anyone that came near us. That became charging people in a very aggressive manner. As the breeder and 2 behaviorists told us,sometimes pups like this slip through. Fast forward 2 years. He would still charge at people coming in our home or yard in a very frightening manner if we allowed him to. He would scare the **** out of anyone if they startled him. We simply had to learn to be very careful with him and we've worked,socialized and exercised him to extreme levels. He's much much better but the fear is there,just below the surface and we can see it. He's a weak nerved dog,it's that simple and he has to be watched when strangers approached. The paradox is that he is very very gentle with us and others when he becomes comfortable. Good Luck. Hopefully yours is bad manners/behavior and not weak nerves. It was heartbreaking at first.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

thanks for that reply, nice to know I'm not the only one. the really hard thing is that when we went to see her at 7 weeks at the breeders, as soon as we entered the puppies pen (indoors, plenty of space and toys around), she and all the others came up tails wagging and greeted us really happily. When she first came home to us for the first week she would happily run up and greet any visitors. She had her first trip out to the vet a week ago last saturday for her vacs and she has not been the same since. 

I'm hoping that she will just grow out of it, when the postman comes she will go up to him to see him that at a certain point of closeness she backs off and runs away then barks and growls. As he leaves she follows him excitedly at a distance, not showing any signs of aggression, until he comes back to scan the barcode on the door, where again she looks happy and excited until a certain proximity, where the fear barking and growling take over again.

I have some hope that she will grow out of it because she is not generally a nervous or skittish pup. We live out on a farm in the country and have a lot of heavy farm traffic going up and down our nearest road. She happily walks next to me on her lead, unbothered by anything except the largest wagons that make her jump a bit. Noises etc don't scare her at all, neither do strong winds. 

It is only being approached by strangers that gets her going.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

studio1one said:


> thanks for that reply, nice to know I'm not the only one. the really hard thing is that when we went to see her at 7 weeks at the breeders, as soon as we entered the puppies pen (indoors, plenty of space and toys around), she and all the others came up tails wagging and greeted us really happily. When she first came home to us for the first week she would happily run up and greet any visitors. She had her first trip out to the vet a week ago last saturday for her vacs and she has not been the same since.
> 
> I'm hoping that she will just grow out of it, when the postman comes she will go up to him to see him that at a certain point of closeness she backs off and runs away then barks and growls. As he leaves she follows him excitedly at a distance, not showing any signs of aggression, until he comes back to scan the barcode on the door, where again she looks happy and excited until a certain proximity, where the fear barking and growling take over again.
> 
> ...


I don't know why our breeder (New Skete) with all their volunteers who help socialize their pups didn't see anything alarming in Fritz. They were shocked when I called them and told them that it started on day1. Fritz had another temperament issue-submissive peeing. I was so disappointed and unhappy but through tons of reading and work we uncovered a lot of beauty in this dog. He certainly made me face my own issues which were contributing to his fearfulness. I do realize now that a lot of characteristics they exhibit as pups resolve on their own but aggression,especially fear aggression from a nervous dog needs to be addressed/handled from day 1. Exercise,Discipline,Affection ain't enough. Hopefully,your pup works through and it's just puppyness but I'd start learning and evaluating immediately. Stay calm and hopeful.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

What vacs did your pup have? Maybe this is a possible side effect? If so, hopefully it will pass.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

studio1one said:


> Hi Paddy,
> 
> I am fully aware she is not a toy or stuffed animal. She has no issues with my family or me at all, she greets everyone with great joy, loves to be with them and petted and wants to spend as much time as she can close and playing with all of us, including the young ones. I have no doubt she feels safe at home, she plays tug of war, loves her ball and shows no fear or nervousness at all and if she wants her own space she is given it/ (although she very rarely want it).
> 
> ...


She may need more space than she indicates. A weak nerved puppy will often be cuddly and obsequious because she is seeking approval. She is also manipulating you (and whoever) to pet her. You might want to give her more crate time so she can rest and calm down.
These are just ideas from someone who has a weak-nerved dog that managed to grow up fully functioning and never fear-aggressive. Far from an expert. Hopefully, it is just a fear phase that will pass .... although that usually comes later on.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply. 

We have her enrolled in classes but they don't start until early January. Don't worry, she already has so much to recommend her. She is beautiful, agile, affectionate, loyal and amazingly intelligent. Whatever happens she will stay with us for life and be loved and cared for to the highest level.

the only real sad thing is that I wanted a companion who would happily go with me anywhere and everywhere and happily enjoy it. Maybe that's not to be.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

studio1one said:


> Thanks again for your thoughtful reply.
> 
> We have her enrolled in classes but they don't start until early January. Don't worry, she already has so much to recommend her. She is beautiful, agile, affectionate, loyal and amazingly intelligent. Whatever happens she will stay with us for life and be loved and cared for to the highest level.
> 
> the only real sad thing is that I wanted a companion who would happily go with me anywhere and everywhere and happily enjoy it. Maybe that's not to be.


With your experience, good care and some training she might surprise you. Remain optimistic.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> What vacs did your pup have? Maybe this is a possible side effect? If so, hopefully it will pass.


standard UK vaccinations, this doesn't include rabies if that's what you were thinking.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

studio1one said:


> Thanks again for your thoughtful reply.
> 
> We have her enrolled in classes but they don't start until early January. Don't worry, she already has so much to recommend her. She is beautiful, agile, affectionate, loyal and amazingly intelligent. Whatever happens she will stay with us for life and be loved and cared for to the highest level.
> 
> the only real sad thing is that I wanted a companion who would happily go with me anywhere and everywhere and happily enjoy it. Maybe that's not to be.


These are some of Fritz' other characteristics as well. Very handsome,muscular (95 pounds with some rib) very intelligent and obedient as well as a tremendous athlete. He simply is too emotional and reactive,but we're managing happily.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

studio1one said:


> standard UK vaccinations, this doesn't include rabies if that's what you were thinking.


Wasn't thinking anything in particular - just that you stated she hadn't been the same since seeing the vet. I found that odd and thought there might be a connection.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Yeah, I think the experience spooked her a little. being jabbed, prodded meeting strange dogs for the first time, going out in the car etc etc. A lot of new experiences in one day, not all of them pleasant.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

studio1one said:


> Yeah, I think the experience spooked her a little. being jabbed, prodded meeting strange dogs for the first time, going out in the car etc etc. A lot of new experiences in one day, not all of them pleasant.


I was thinking the same thing and then I remembered that the breeder said my dog exhibited no fear or aggression for 8 weeks,then came 8 weeks and 1 day.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Well, some progress today. I took her to a friends house, before I went I asked everyone to ignore her and pretend she wasn't there.

they opened the door and we walked in and she happily came inside, we were sat around the table and she showed no fear at all at any stage, ears stayed upright, tail not under legs, happily looking up and around the place - until someone tried to pet her, to which she gave a low growl and flattened her ears, at which point my friend totally backed off. After 15 mins she was happily taking treats from everyone's hands without any concerns, although still did not want to be petted.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Some dogs don't like being touched, especially by strangers. It's a loss of control. My dog didn't like being touched as a puppy. We gradually increased handling over time and now she loves it, even rubs up against people like a cat.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

I thought I would just update you, whether you are interested or not 


Had some great success with her today. I have ultra high value treats - anchovies. She would do anything for them.

when one of the couriers arrived I took her out into the yard as he parked up and approached the property. As he walked down the yard I asked her to sit and as soon as she did I gave her an anchovy and kept feeding her them as he walked down the path. He got right up to us without any barking or growling at all. As he is a dog lover himself he was really good at ignoring her as requested. 
I gave him an anchovy to give her, which she took happily and her ball, she has great ball drive.

He threw the ball and she went for it down the yard and brought it straight back to him not me. He took 10 mins and kept playing ball with her.

Later someone came to fix the stove and as he approached I took the same tack, sit instruction and then anchovies when she obeyed. We had a couple of low barks at him but that was all, within 10 mins of arriving she happily took some treats from him.

Later the postman arrived, again as he approached I gave her anchovies and gave him one to give her, which she took quite happily and we had no barking at all.

I know it doesn't seem like much but for me it is huge progress in one day.

Gives me hope that with loads of distraction and positive reinforcement we can work through this and improve things. I fully understand she will always be weak nerved but all I need is for it to be manageable so both her and I can be confident and comfortable in busy public spaces.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Congratulations.
Smart to nip it in the bud and establish good habits early on.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Socialization is an ongoing process. She has to be repeatedly introduced to new people and new situations or new things will frighten her. Even after she is grown, she must still continue a socialization process. Take her everywhere. Let people pet and play with her while she is young--if she allows it. If socialization stops, you will have a great watch dog that you must put in a back bedroom when visitors come.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Indeed, I just didn't expect to be having to work so hard on it with a puppy this young. I put so much effort into getting a dog with the right temperemant, as well as a sound physical structure too. I guess sometimes you luck out.

The breeder would have her back in a second if I asked them to but I figure you have to love and care for your dogs no matter what they throw at you.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Another quick update on my weak nerved pup.

She is now just over 12 weeks and fully vaccinated etc, so we have been socialising her lots and lots every day.

She is more than happy for people to come down the yard and to the front door with no fuss, 3 or 4 delivery men every day come and she doesn't make a squeak at them, although she doesn't want to be approached and touched (fair enough no problem with that).

She still doesn't like people she doesn't know coming into the house, she sits under the table and growls at them. Not an over the top growl, no barking and no hackles. After a while she relaxes but is still not too happy about it. Working hard on this one at present. I am more than happy for her to not like people coming in the house but if I say its ok she has to accept them, up to her if she makes friends or not.

Out and about, after lots of work on positive association (treats when she sits her ground and shows a general interest in other dogs) she is slightly nervous of other dogs but not badly so, she will sniff at them for a bit but back off if they are too boisterous or persistent. She lunged at one dog that was off lead and would not leave her alone, the owner was nowhere in sight. the dog wasn't aggressive just overly curious and she had made it quite clear she had had enough. 

She actively seeks strangers out to see what they are about when we are in the park, sniffing at their feet. Again though if they try to touch her she will back off from them but no signs of aggression towards them at all.

Pretty happy with her progress in general but not happy about her behaviour when friends come to visit. The problem is, living on a remote farm we don't get huge amounts of visitors (2-3 times a week probably) so getting her used to it is not so easy.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Another quick update on my weak nerved pup.

She is now just over 12 weeks and fully vaccinated etc, so we have been socialising her lots and lots every day.

She is more than happy for people to come down the yard and to the front door with no fuss, 3 or 4 delivery men every day come and she doesn't make a squeak at them, although she doesn't want to be approached and touched (fair enough no problem with that).

She still doesn't like people she doesn't know coming into the house, she sits under the table and growls at them. Not an over the top growl, no barking and no hackles. After a while she relaxes but is still not too happy about it. Working hard on this one at present. I am more than happy for her to not like people coming in the house but if I say its ok she has to accept them, up to her if she makes friends or not.

Out and about, after lots of work on positive association (treats when she sits her ground and shows a general interest in other dogs) she is slightly nervous of other dogs but not badly so, she will sniff at them for a bit but back off if they are too boisterous or persistent. She lunged at one dog that was off lead and would not leave her alone, the owner was nowhere in sight. the dog wasn't aggressive just overly curious and she had made it quite clear she had had enough. 

She actively seeks strangers out to see what they are about when we are in the park, sniffing at their feet. Again though if they try to touch her she will back off from them but no signs of aggression towards them at all.

Pretty happy with her progress in general but not happy about her behaviour when friends come to visit. The problem is, living on a remote farm we don't get huge amounts of visitors (1-2 times a week probably) so getting her used to it is not so easy.


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## Oskar der Drachen (Oct 28, 2011)

Hey there!

My three month old Bear has started with an interesting behaviour that might be a little like this. I have been walking him a lot to meet as many new people and dogs as we can. I have my bait box with me, combination puppy kibble and bacon bits.

When we get close to other dogs, and not ALL other dogs he will Greet them, I think with a very distinctive bark. GrrWoWoWoWoWoWof. Kind of a light quick tone, not a lot of growly chest in it, but a bit of as rumble. Not at Yap Yap, or a Bow Wow Wow, or Woof!, just this light chattery rolling bark. 

Ears forward, tail relaxed, and he is happy to go and meet them when he gets close. I explain it as "He is just saying Hello, he is very chatty." The distinction escapes me as to which dogs he greets this way, they are not consistently big or small, and no particular breed.

It does make people a bit nervous though, and if he keeps it up as he gets bigger it will definitely be taken as threatening.

Any ideas? I don't want to be explaining away a behaviour that might be something I am needing to modify.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

More and more progress with my pup, there is no greater feeling than seeing your pup develop in front of you and improve.

I have been taking her out walking 3 times a day to busy public places but being really really careful not to push her outside her comfort zone. I always make sure my pockets are bursting with high value treats. Being such a good looking pup she gets loads of admirers and I place myself between them and the dog when they approach so they always ask if they can pet her instead of reaching down. I tell them she is very shy but loves treats and instead they can feed her a treat if they like. She must have taken treats off 100 different people by now and, while she doesn't like being touched by people she doesn't know (perfect) she will not back away or shy from them.

Yesterday we took her to a country pub with the family after walking in the forest. Enclosed space, lots of people and other dogs. She is pretty friendly with other dogs and was sniffing and making friends with a little terrier when the owner stuck her hand out. My pup sniffed her hand and then sat and accepted a stroke on the top of the head quite happily without showing the slightest tension -- never seen her do that before.

Also she will now bark when a visitor comes and knocks on the door but when I tell her to settle she goes quiet and doesn't growl at them when I let them in anymore, nor does she run off and hide under the table growling at them for the whole time they are here like she used to. She shows zero interest in them at all in fact, which I consider to be the ideal GSD temperament.

Feeling very happy indeed with her right now.


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## Frankly I'm Frank (Jan 2, 2012)

It is good that you aren't pushing her too hard but still giving her opportunities to grow. She may never become outgoing with people but that is not a bad thing as long as she doesn't become fear-aggressive. My dog is basically shy but he has some human and dog friends and that is enough for him and me. He barks when people come to the house but is very friendly when they come inside. I wouldn't mind if he were more like yours and ignored them but he is who he is.


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## Oskar der Drachen (Oct 28, 2011)

studio1one said:


> More and more progress with my pup, there is no greater feeling than seeing your pup develop in front of you and improve.
> 
> Feeling very happy indeed with her right now.


Well done! You are spot on, nothing better than when you can see that they have learned and developed something new.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Well this pup has the most **** confusing temperament I have ever had in a dog, and I've had a few. I would appreciate some feedback from others - I know it's difficult to give feedback from a few words on a forum but hey, it's all we have to work with here.

Out and about in the park etc she is solid as a rock. Approaches other dogs totally calm and confident, gives good signals off, loves to play chase. She is a good communicator and can happily pacify fearful dogs that don't usually like other dogs. she punches well above her weight and will play with dogs much much bigger than her and come back for more when she ends up caught up in the middle of bigger dogs playing and gets knocked over or whatever. Doesn't bother her at all, stays alert excited and friendly throughout play. She also knows how to behave appropriately with smaller more timid dogs.

People when she is out and about she is the classic aloof temperament. She will walk right by people, even squeeze through small gaps when two people are stood next to each other. If people ask if they can give her a treat I say yes and she happily approaches them and takes it but is not interested in being petted by them. If people put their hand out she will sniff it quite happily but then show no further interest. She is not keen on being touched by people she doesn't know but doesn't show aggression or fear she just calmly moves out of the way.

At home she is a different animal. She barks like crazy at any visitor when they come in but stops quite quickly, will watch them very carefully like a hawk with major suspicion, although she growls at people a lot less. She still makes the odd short low growl at people if they move quick or approach her directly. If I sit next to the person and tell her to come she will sit between me and them happily but does not want to be touched by them. It takes at least 5-6 hours of someone being in the house before she is totally relaxed and comfortable with their presence. If I let her she would chase them off the premises barking.

If she was older I would think that she was being territorial but at just approaching 4 months and bearing in mind she has not liked visitors since she was 9 weeks old I doubt this.

She is not bothered by loud noises, sudden movements, she thinks the hoover is great and play bows at it before chasing jumping on and attacking it playfully (tail up and wagging all the time). Bikes horses, heavy wind don't phase her at all.

I have come to the conclusion that she is not weak nerved.

It is just people she doesn't know in her home environment that really gets her wired.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Reading these posts, as I'm also dealing with my first reactive dog as well. Like you, I live in a rural place without much contact, which makes things all the more challenging. It sounds like you're making good progress. I think I've made some myself, but I'm dealing with a multifaceted problem (dog that has not had much training and needs to learn what is expected of her - good thing is she's smart and is calming more each day with a routine and consistency). I am employing a very talented trainer/behaviorist to work with and cannot wait until I have the funds to start with him in two weeks. 

It is disappointing. I know I can never trust this dog with my grandkids or strangers, whereas my first GSD I could trust a child's life with and my second has been a just good-all-around playmate and never harmed anyone or anything. Not sure Rey would actually bite or attack anyone, but I'm not going to find out the hard way or let her be cornered into feeling like she has no out. 

I sometimes wonder if a "reactive dog" section here might be helpful. It's a very lonely road to travel and advice I've gotten from others in the same boat has been a godsend.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Learning alot from your posts. Seems like I need more high value treats.
My dog does the same growling and barking with other dogs. The funny thing is, it didn't happen when she first got here. It started like 2-3 days in. She was great at the breeder's house. So I've concluded that it's my poor handling.

I will try the high reward treat. Watch me. Treat treat treat until the dog passes. Also learning to greet nicely in class. The things we do for our pets.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm a firm believer that redirecting a dog and rewarding it just on the border of its stress point and then gradually moving past it while redirecting / rewarding are a great cure for fear.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

My dog isn't fearful though. She growls and barks but wants to approach the other dog and is straining my leash to go that way. I think I reacted poorly at some point to a situation involving her and another dog that's caused her to be like this. I will still use this method to redirect her to show her that her focus should be on me. 

Are you using canned anchovies?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

studio1one said:


> It takes at least 5-6 hours of someone being in the house before she is totally relaxed and comfortable with their presence. If I let her she would chase them off the premises barking.
> 
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that she is not weak nerved.


How did you come to that conclusion? A pup who cannot settle in the presence of guests is not an example of strong nerves. When you are out in public, she ignores people because she is not on her own territory--when on their home turf, dogs may act very differently. It's not protectiveness, or territorial behavior, it's fear, plain and simple. It comes out as avoidance in public, and aggression at home, but it is still fear-based. It's not your fault, or the dog's fault, it's just what she was born with.

Keep socializing, keep bringing people to the house, and have them ignore her or throw tasty treats around. Don't push her too hard, let her come around at her own pace. Have you contacted a trainer or behaviorist? I admit I didn't read all the posts in this thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating advice you've already gotten.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

got to go back and read all from page one , but this one caught my attention - quote "Unfortunately none of the vets near me use the same brand of vacs that she got when at the breeder so we have had to start her vacs again "

what? never heard of that , double duty on the vaccines -- which most people are asking for modified to minimal and even some zero 

Carmen


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Freestep said:


> How did you come to that conclusion? A pup who cannot settle in the presence of guests is not an example of strong nerves. When you are out in public, she ignores people because she is not on her own territory--when on their home turf, dogs may act very differently. It's not protectiveness, or territorial behavior, it's fear, plain and simple. It comes out as avoidance in public, and aggression at home, but it is still fear-based. It's not your fault, or the dog's fault, it's just what she was born with.
> 
> Keep socializing, keep bringing people to the house, and have them ignore her or throw tasty treats around. Don't push her too hard, let her come around at her own pace. Have you contacted a trainer or behaviorist? I admit I didn't read all the posts in this thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating advice you've already gotten.


I agree with what you are saying, hence my statement on how confusing I find her temperament. 

Outside of the home though she doesn't use avoidance really on people, like I say if there are two people walking towards her blocking the path she will squeeze her way between them without a second glance, like they weren't there. The avoidance only occurs when someone tries to reach out and touch her, to which she will back away.

The other thing that is unusual with her for a weak nerved dog, as I said, is that she shows no fear of dogs, cars, horses, bikes, loud bangs or other things that I would expect to set off a fear reaction in her. she will check them out with interest, a loud noise may make her jump but then her reaction is to go check out what made the noise.

Her reactions to people at home though are that of a fear reactive dog. It is almost as if she is two different animals inside and outside the home environment. I have thought really hard about what I could have done to make her reactive in the home but 90% of the time she is a totally happy relaxed pup here. There is zero reactiveness to any of the family members and she generally shows good levels of confidence and contentment. 

Until we get visitors.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

carmspack said:


> got to go back and read all from page one , but this one caught my attention - quote "Unfortunately none of the vets near me use the same brand of vacs that she got when at the breeder so we have had to start her vacs again "
> 
> what? never heard of that , double duty on the vaccines -- which most people are asking for modified to minimal and even some zero
> 
> Carmen


Here in UK dogs get vacced at 8 and 10 weeks usually. 8 weeks is first and 10 weeks is a booster.

We got her at 9 weeks, breeder won't let them go before or after. 

She had her first vacs with the breeder at 8 weeks. Breeder is two hours away from us.

We go tthe vaccination card from the breeder with the brand of vaccinations.

if the booster is not the same brand as the first then they are not considered to be vaccinated here. No vet in a 30 mile radius of me used the same brand of vacs as the breeders vet.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Well I'll do a final update on this thread. We got her an older male role model to partner up with her. We needed a very stable confident animal who she would look up to and learn from. With this in mind we went for a labrador from a gun pack. He has the most unbelievable pedigree I have ever seen in a dog

Sire

Pedigree: FT Ch Rumbleton Quicksilver

Dam

Pedigree: FTW Copperbirch Dione

Almost every single relative up the tree is a Ft Ch.

Anyway since partnering her up with him for a month everywhere we go she has become the most stable dog in all situations now. He has given her huge confidence because he is the most calm collected confident animal I have ever known and she looks up to him hugely.

In the end from a pretty scary situation of having a pup who would growl at every person she didn't know and hide under the table in fear, we have a stable confident dog who doesn't go tail wagging showing affection to everyone but shows stable confident body language and doesn't shy away from hands or put up any defensive display / signs of tension or nervousness.

A long and sometimes painful journey so far but one that is going in the right direction.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

studio1one said:


> Well I'll do a final update on this thread. We got her an older male role model to partner up with her. We needed a very stable confident animal who she would look up to and learn from. With this in mind we went for a labrador from a gun pack. He has the most unbelievable pedigree I have ever seen in a dog
> 
> Sire
> 
> ...


I think her fear may have stemed from the pack of 9 year olds who terrorized her, in her own home, during her adjustment period. Hence why it was just inside the house. Babies can not handle that level of stress and they can easily become traumatized. It's up to you to keep her safe so make sure she's never exposed to that again or she could relapse.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Chance&Reno said:


> I think her fear may have stemed from the pack of 9 year olds who terrorized her, in her own home, during her adjustment period. Hence why it was just inside the house. Babies can not handle that level of stress and they can easily become traumatized. It's up to you to keep her safe so make sure she's never exposed to that again or she could relapse.


They hardly terrorised her, they simply wanted to pet her and she wanted to avoid them, as she backed off they approached. If she had no issues in the first place then the girls wanting to pet her would not have caused such a strong reaction. A strong nerved dog should not be traumatised for months by 4 people wanting to pet it, adjustment period, fear imprint period, it shouldn't matter. There is no question her issues were deeper than that.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

studio1one said:


> They hardly terrorised her, they simply wanted to pet her and she wanted to avoid them, as she backed off they approached. If she had no issues in the first place then the girls wanting to pet her would not have caused such a strong reaction. A strong nerved dog should not be traumatised for months by 4 people wanting to pet it, adjustment period, fear imprint period, it shouldn't matter. There is no question her issues were deeper than that.


Have you every had 8 hands reaching for you and 8 eyes staring into your eyes as you were feeling fearful? How about being backed into a piece of furniture or corner with no where to run and feeling so overwhelmed? Imagine what a little puppy feels when these strangers did that to your puppy. YES it can traumatize a dog for months, especially when the dog was still learning about your family. Many things can traumatize a dog at that age, which is why you have to give people instructions. ESPECIALLY other people's kids. It happened IN your home and without you being able to put yourself in your puppy's paws, you have no idea how a weak nerved puppy can get traumatized so easily. 
I've known dogs who were traumatized for years over walking down the street and having a car come up behind them and beep the horn for a few seconds and scare the crap out of them. So even the menial things can really affect them when they are that age.


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## studio1one (Dec 13, 2011)

Chance&Reno said:


> Have you every had 8 hands reaching for you and 8 eyes staring into your eyes as you were feeling fearful? How about being backed into a piece of furniture or corner with no where to run and feeling so overwhelmed? Imagine what a little puppy feels when these strangers did that to your puppy. YES it can traumatize a dog for months, especially when the dog was still learning about your family. Many things can traumatize a dog at that age, which is why you have to give people instructions. ESPECIALLY other people's kids. It happened IN your home and without you being able to put yourself in your puppy's paws, you have no idea how a weak nerved puppy can get traumatized so easily.
> I've known dogs who were traumatized for years over walking down the street and having a car come up behind them and beep the horn for a few seconds and scare the crap out of them. So even the menial things can really affect them when they are that age.



Please don't assess a situation that happened when you weren't there to see it and make a judgement. I have raised over 20 dogs in my life of many breeds, from fearful rescue toy breeds to hard as nails czech lines. I assure you the incident that happened would not have traumatised a stable dog for months, period. Don't argue with me on this because you have no idea what actually happened, you didn't see it. A weak nerved dog yes, but a stable dog no, hence my stating if the dog *didn't have underlying issues* it wouldn't have been an problem. Yes the incident certainly scared her and yes it certainly affected her but the reason for that is more related to her temperament than to the incident.


Anyway I'm sorry but I'm not going to let you put this thread onto a negative vibe. I have worked very very hard on a fearful reactive dog and had good results, I feel good about that right now. Many people would not have put the hours and hours of time and effort I have put into positive redirection, threshold widening and confidence building. 

Just say, great I'm pleased for you your pup is feeling happier and more confident and leave it at that, instead of looking for an opportunity to attack.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

studio1one said:


> Please don't assess a situation that happened when you weren't there to see it and make a judgement. I have raised over 20 dogs in my life of many breeds, from fearful rescue toy breeds to hard as nails czech lines. I assure you the incident that happened would not have traumatised a stable dog for months, period. Don't argue with me on this because you have no idea what actually happened, you didn't see it. A weak nerved dog yes, but a stable dog no, hence my stating if the dog *didn't have underlying issues* it wouldn't have been an problem. Yes the incident certainly scared her and yes it certainly affected her but the reason for that is more related to her temperament than to the incident.
> 
> 
> Anyway I'm sorry but I'm not going to let you put this thread onto a negative vibe. I have worked very very hard on a fearful reactive dog and had good results, I feel good about that right now. Many people would not have put the hours and hours of time and effort I have put into positive redirection, threshold widening and confidence building.
> ...


LIKE I said, a weak nerved dog can be easily traumatized. I am not debating the fact that the dog has underlying issues, you are. If you actually read what I wrote, you would see where I noted that, several times. I'm not trying to turn this into a negative vibe, I was just asking you to put yourself in your timid dog's paws, and realize even the most menial things can traumatize a dog. The only reason why you would become defensive about my post is because all you want is a pat on the back and a "atta boy". Sorry I didn't give that to you..
Oh wait... ATTA BOY! Good For You.. CLICK!


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

You've done a ton of work and the progress shows it.

The behaviorist Woolf and I work with is absolutely adamant when in a social situation that Woolf not sit in front of us or between us and the guest. Her reason is it puts to much stress on Woolf putting him in what the dog perceives as the lead position. I had read in one of your postings about your pup sitting between you and a guest is the reason I mention this. When I began following this, I could see an immediate change in his posture and hyper-alertness.

While Woolf's background and reactions are very different, this may be another tool you could add in helping your pup.


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