# Giving a pup a good base for Schutzhund?



## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

Hello all. 

I'm having a bit of trouble getting the info I need for the pup we will be getting here in a couple of weeks.

My family and I began our search for a pup at the beginning of this year, and finally settled on a breeder in April. The pups of a couple different litters were born in May, and our pup will be ready to come home the first week of July. We are super excited.

I have a tendency to ramble a lot, so I'll try to keep this as brief as possible. I have extensive experience with GSDs, obedience, etc., but this will be my first Schutzhund dog. High Plains Schutzhund is about three hours from us and is the club I think I'd like to become involved with when our pup is ready for training, since I've heard many good things about them. However, because of the distance involved, and the fact that we only have one car, driving down there very often won't be feasible, which means I'll have to do as much of the work as I can at home.

I've contacted them by email, and they let me know when they have "open" days for visitors to come see them, and once we have our pup, I do plan on making a trip to do just that. However, I've asked multiple times what sorts of things I can do at home when we first get the pup to help get him ready for his future training, and I'm not getting ANY info, and I'm getting a bit frustrated. I'm not asking them to tell me extensively how to train, or anything. Just a few tips on making sure I don't inadvertently kill his drive, what sort of basic equipment (balls, tugs, etc.) I can use with him as a baby, etc. Every time I ask, the lady I speak with just tells me to get a flat collar and a leash. Well, no kidding.

I've seen videos, pictures, etc. of people working with pups to get them ready for Schutzhund, and I've seen things like balls attached to ropes that people have the pups jump up for (I'm assuming to improve the pup's grip) and other pieces of equipment of the like. I'd like to get a few things that might help, or at least get pointed in the right direction of what to do so I don't start our boy out wrong. For instance, the breeder told me that confinement will help develop drive, and teasing a LOT with a ball before throwing it will help do the same, so I'll use those tips for sure. I just don't know how MUCH to confine him, and I've also been told that sometimes, "pet" homes inadvertently kill the drive in a promising pup by treating the pup too much like ... well ... a pet. I don't want to make those mistakes, so I'm looking for some guidance, but I don't know where to get it.

Again, I'd like to make it clear I'm not looking for someone to give me extensive training "over the internet". I do know that I will need to be in close contact with the Schutzhund club when I begin training; however, I'm pretty sure that actual Schutzhund training doesn't begin at 8 weeks when I bring the pup home (even though I'll be starting basic obedience immediately, of course). I'm just wanting to know what types of equipment I'll need to start him right, along with the _correct_ types of play to make sure I enhance his drive, and not kill it.

Can anyone point me in the right direction to get this information, or will I really need to get even such basic info in person from the Schutzhund club I join, rather than getting some tips via email before I'm able to make the long drive to visit them?

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. 

Kaci


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would start with the book Purely Positive training by Sheila Booth. It has a great puppy foundation chapter, and then carries on to more SchH training.
A flirt pole with a burlap knotted rag attached is a great prey drive toy, so using one to wear out the pup is fun.
Scent boxes to develop the nose/search and then going with some short tracks can be done easily on your own. 
This site has some good articles: Schutzhund Village
But really I think Sheila's book is excellent for starting a pup.
There may be someone that is in the club more local to you that can mentor you. Check w/ the training director and see if anyone is willing to meet up with you often. Protection work can wait, it is mostly the foundation of the obedience exercises and tracking that usually begins early on.
Congrats on your new pup, and your new addiction!!!


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## JaimeZX (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks Kaci (and Jane!) I had a very similar question I wanted to ask but I don't know that I could've phrased it as well as you.

We pick up our girl this weekend - super excited! Best of luck!

Jim


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

kejhix said:


> I've seen videos, pictures, etc. of people working with pups to get them ready for Schutzhund, and I've seen things like balls attached to ropes that people have the pups jump up for (I'm assuming to improve the pup's grip) and other pieces of equipment of the like. I'd like to get a few things that might help, or at least get pointed in the right direction of what to do so I don't start our boy out wrong. For instance, the breeder told me that confinement will help develop drive, and teasing a LOT with a ball before throwing it will help do the same, so I'll use those tips for sure. I just don't know how MUCH to confine him, and I've also been told that sometimes, "pet" homes inadvertently kill the drive in a promising pup by treating the pup too much like ... well ... a pet. I don't want to make those mistakes, so I'm looking for some guidance, but I don't know where to get it.
> Kaci


Confinement? Not. This is very old school thinking and went out a long time ago. Other than crate training for housebreaking and until he can be trusted loose in the house unattended, he doesn't need to be confined more than any other dog. 

Your new pup is a pet that is going to do SchH and you should treat him like a pet. Think about it. What happens if you aren't able to do SchH with him for whatever reason? Are you going to kick him to the curb? No. He's going to still be the same great pet he was before. Besides, he's not a tool you put away when you aren't training, you want to play and bond with him, so he's a happy dog. Take him everywhere you can and have him meet as many different people as possible. About the only exception is that your average pet home doesn't have a clue about how to redirect and channel their pup's energy in a non-distructive fashion.

If you have experience in marker training and positive training methods, you should start to train the little guy in obedience from day one. This would include heel, sit, down, stand, come, and most important of all focus. In the beginning, it's all very fun, age appropriate, short sessions so he learns that training is fun and easy.

By all means get him some toys to play with: mostly to redirect his sharp little teeth from your tender skin. The ball on a string and tugs are not for the dog to jump up to get and to improve their bite, they are reward toys that you hold out for them to grab or you toss them. You can wiggle them or drag them on the ground to increase interest, but you don't have to tease him with it. It usually takes a while before the pup gets the hang of them and you will mostly be treat training in the very beginning.

You should get out to the club as soon as possible to get their advice on what they want you to do with your pup.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

The only things I could think of, Jane already said. Good luck and have fun with your puppy! Oh and congrats!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

For the balls & tugs I'd check out Hallmark K9 - Premium Dog Training Equipment - BALLS
Gappay Synthetic 2 handle tug 3x25cm
I never wanted to confine my pup for training purposes either, I wanted him with me all the time and he also was able to be with my other dogs. 
Some people think this is detrimental for drives and training, but for me and my dog, it helped to keep him balanced. He needed that outlet of the other dogs to get out his energy and he has always been a happy, biddable dog with great recall. 
Though now and then his obedience is a bit flat....I think crating him before training and keeping him away from my other dogs may have helped to bring up more enthusiasm. 

I DO believe in crating the pup after a training(tracking too) session so the pup can process what just happened, not for long, maybe 15 minutes or so....just some downtime. I have a crate in my vehicle and that is where my pup went for this if it wasn't too hot, otherwise he was crated in the house for that time.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I wouldn't be discouraged by a lack of response about training questions via e-mails. So many people are "tire-kickers" and it gets discouraging to waste time on e-mails when the person never follows through. But I bet they'll be more helpful if you visit in person and show you're serious. 
If the drive is there - you won't kill it with "novice" mistakes. If the temperament is more borderline you'll want to be more careful. With puppies, I redirect to toy or tug for biting, do a lot of positive shaping, and tease and build drive - but it's best to get someone to show you how to do this in person, it isn't as easy to do correctly as it looks!


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## Sully vom boeselager (Jul 14, 2012)

When training in shutzhund the most important thing you can do for a puppy is socialize! Make sure you are bringing your puppy everywhere!! Do not let them have any bad experences. The reason we socialize is to build confidence. 

Build prey drive. This is the first drive dogs begin their work in. You can build prey drive by playing with rags and tugs and praise and encourage the dog when he chases and bites at it. Make sure you start with no distractions. And keep your play sessions short, 30 seconds to 1 minute, then when the dog is still very interested in the rag, put it away. This will frustrate your pup and after a while he will begin to show more intensity with each play session. But remember, baby steps!! Rome wasn't built in a day!! Play with him in different places too, so he learns that when the rag is out that's the only thing he needs to care about!!

Do not do much obedience. Too much obedience will kill a dogs inner drive to bite, which is obviously important in shutzhund. I train my boy during meal times for 3 minutes, twice a day and that's it. Start with focus (we contact) as this will build a well focused dog when you start combining obedience and prey drive later on.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sully vom boeselager said:


> Do not do much obedience. Too much obedience will kill a dogs inner drive to bite, which is obviously important in shutzhund. I train my boy during meal times for 3 minutes, twice a day and that's it. Start with focus (we contact) as this will build a well focused dog when you start combining obedience and prey drive later on.


I don't agree with this. The pup might be coming from schutzhund lines, but that doesn't mean that this particular pup will be schutzhund material. So if one slacks off on the obedience and ends up with a dog not qualified, the obedience part that could have been done months ago is now getting started much later. My dog has gone through several obedience classes and she did fine on her evaluation for schutzhund(she has no schutzhund lines in her per the trainer for schuthund). She was focused and treated it like a game, which in the end made it better for her.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

My suggestion on things to have at home upon arrival is :
a leash and collar and a crate. In addition, a few few toys and of course the basics ....food dishes, food, etc. Remember you will go through potty training and teething.

IMHO, Your pup is a baby...and will need some obedience. It needs to be a puppy and pet as well. No matter what you decide to do with your puppy, Socialization is key and your family should all interact with the pup. 

Crating them all of time to help for SchH training is something I've never heard of or done. As for the toys/ equipment to use for SchH training...you can get that down the road. 

(After you join a club and start training they will help guide you more into what you'll need for the phases of SchH training.)

Please be aware that not all dogs are cut out for Schutzhund training ... Even with titled parents. Most of the SchH titled dogs I know make exceptional family members as well (pets).
There are several good forum remarks/suggestions already. 

Hopefully you find a good trainer...and congratulations on your new pup!


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## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

Thanks, everyone, for all of the tips! 

We've had Havoc for about a month, now, and I think things are coming along all right. It's just been so long since I've had a puppy that I'm having to remember/update myself on even basic stuff like obedience, so I don't know if we're ahead or behind the game. lol

I have a couple of quick questions:

1) We've been doing basic obedience (nothing intense--sitting, walking on a loose leash, started working on "down" a couple days ago) and the flat collar just isn't getting his attention. The last time I had a puppy (over 10 years ago), I used a choke chain, but I can't remember at what age I switched to one, and since I've been trying to update myself on any new training techniques, I've since learned that they can cause trachea problems if used incorrectly, and that prong collars are best. Havoc turned 13 weeks yesterday and I'm considering getting a prong collar for him so that he actually pays attention when I give him a snap on the leash instead of ignoring it completely.

A) Is this too soon?
B) If not, what size prong collar do I get him? Do I get a medium or large, and then just take out/add prongs to fit him as he grows?



2) He is, of course, doing the "I'm a puppy and have to put my mouth on everything" thing. This includes playful nipping and too-hard mouthing. Because I've never trained a dog for bitework, I'm nervous about doing anything that will inhibit him down the road. Any suggestions on how to get him to stop mouthing/biting everyone in the house without ruining his future bitework success?


Thanks again, everyone! Really appreciate all the help! 

Kaci


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Too young for a prong. Stay with a flat buckle collar or a harness.
Work on engagement and using food to lure is ok for young puppies. Teething is beginning so tug needs to be put on hold, but the pup can still carry a toy to stuff his mouth so he isn't biting inappropriately. My pups loved cuzballs, still do as adults!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

way way too young a pup to start doing any kind of corrections....or compulsion....

focus and desire to interact with the handler is very genetic - if the pup does not naturally have it, you will have to develop it, and NOT through compulsion if you want a happy dog!!!!!!

Before you pick a trainer and commit to their style of training, please explore WHAT their philosophy is and make sure you can live with that style - compulsion/deprivation training or positive foundation training....if you do not have a puppy with genetics compatible to the style, you will not enjoy the process.....JMHO

Lee


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Use food or a favorite toy (that you only bring out for "training") 
As far as the biting, keep lots of his toys around and when he bites on you (or something he shouldn't) simply replace the unwanted item with one of his toys, then high praise.

I agree way to early for the prong. I think I switched to prong on D.ooney at about 6 months of age.


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## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

Thanks for the info--I'll wait on the prong.

To be clear, I do use positive reinforcement for the little bit of obedience we're working on--TONS of praise when he does something right, etc. However, I've always done a combo of positive with short, quick "negative" (not sure of another word for it) correction when I've trained. I guess my philosophy is to liken it to trying to learn how to drive if the person teaching you ONLY told you when you did something right, and didn't do anything when you did something wrong. I've felt that it's easier to learn if you have something to provide a boundary to show when you do something wrong, and get lots of encouragement when you do something right, and I guess I sort of apply the same theory here (or did in the past when I trained my dogs in obedience).

I'm not discounting what anyone is saying, at all. Is the way I've done this before completely invalid nowadays? I genuinely want to make sure I'm doing the right thing for him, and while I don't put other people down for whatever their training methods may be (as long as they aren't cruel, of course), I know that there are lots of different methods that do work.

Thanks again, guys! 


Oh! Also, for the biting thing ... basically, anytime he gets excited--which is pretty much all the time--he tries to "bite" (I put that in quotes because there's no malice in it--he's just super excited). No one in the house is able to pet him or put their hands on him (unless he's sleeping or lying quietly) without him immediately biting excitedly. Do we just always have to walk around with a toy in our hands for whatever moment he decides to bite? I get the feeling everyone will get tired of having to have a toy glued to their fingers "just in case" and they'll just start to avoid him rather than have to deal with it. And even then, it's not a guarantee, because if he sees someone walking in his direction, he'll romp toward them and start biting legs, ankles, knees, etc. Everyone in the house is extremely frustrated with it, so I'm hoping to be able to tell them some way to fix it without ruining him for the future.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

kejhix said:


> Thanks for the info--I'll wait on the prong.
> 
> To be clear, I do use positive reinforcement for the little bit of obedience we're working on--TONS of praise when he does something right, etc. However, I've always done a combo of positive with short, quick "negative" (not sure of another word for it) correction when I've trained. I guess my philosophy is to liken it to trying to learn how to drive if the person teaching you ONLY told you when you did something right, and didn't do anything when you did something wrong. I've felt that it's easier to learn if you have something to provide a boundary to show when you do something wrong, and get lots of encouragement when you do something right, and I guess I sort of apply the same theory here (or did in the past when I trained my dogs in obedience).
> 
> ...


Hmmmmm- Another thing I used to do with mine is I would yell OW really loudly and "startle" her for just a second then I would say NO, easy! and repeat the process. I didn't raise Dooney to be Schutzhund, so I wasn't ever really worried about ruining her "bite drive" I used to also (in extreme cases) stick my thumb on her tongue (parallel with her tongue) my other fingers under her lower jaw and press down and yell OW again so she figured out what Ow actually meant. I never pressed overly hard. Not to sure how that would work for Schutzhund raising though.  Thankfully, mine has a very strong prey drive and it did not deter her bitework that we started this year.

Hopefully someone else has some more input for you too and I would get those videos as well


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