# 9 month old turning into cujo



## Gsd_Bane (Mar 18, 2016)

My pup is 9 months old, we play fetch with him several times a day and do several training sessions with him but he still bites at hands and feet and jumps up on people. I've read several articles on things to do like redirecting with a toy, ignoring him, everything. He still does both and I'm losing my patience because hes getting more aggressive running back and forth when he knows he's in trouble, stops listening, and even gets on his back baring his teeth when I go to take him to timeout. He gets more then enough play time and he basically gets attention 24/7. I've established myself to him as the alpha but I'm running out of ideas. I know this is for the most part "normal shepherd behavior" but I'm not made of money and anything a trainer can do I know I can do but I need some help and encouragement.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Forget the Alpha stuff. Forget redirection etc. These behaviours as described are not rare nor are they real aggression. 
What you are describing is typical bratty protest behaviours. He probably knows you dont like much of what he does but he also knows you cant make him stop so like most teenagers he will continue .

Step 1: Basic obedience
Teach the dog recalls, heeling, basic manners

-Put a prong collar on the dog. Youtube will show you how to fit and properly use one. Give him regular structured walks

-Take your dog out and start teaching recall. Put a long line (33ft) on the prong collar. Let him get away from you, call him and apply pops to the line until he turns and comes towards you. Mark the second he comes towards you and praise/reward.

-Teach the dog to sit, down and place with food and leash. Correct the dog for breaking positions until released. Again, using a prong and leash make things easier.

-Manners: For you very important. Apply a strong correction to any behaviour you dislike. For example of he bites you..Mark, NO, and give him a heavy collar correction. If he is not wearing a correction apply an open handed whack to the side of his head. Both options work well. 
If he repeats the behaviour follow up immidiately with a stronger correction.

For the jumping, the second he jumps mark NO and simply move into him and or knee him in the chest. Get up in his space and back him off you.

Step 2: Structed Play
Teach the dog to bring the toy back to you, tug with the toy and drop it on cue.

-Once again the long line on prong is your friend. 
-Offer the toy up to the dog so he can bite it and or throw it. 
-Once the dog has the toy let him carry it
-Call the dog, then apply long line pops while moving backwards until he is with you
-Praise tug with him then let him win again and run off with it
-Call him back as you did earlier and ensure his compliance with the long line
-Rinse and repeat the above steps
-If and when the dog drops the toy simply pick it up and restart the game

-Teach the dog to drop it by saying OUT and freezing the tug or ball without pulling it away
-Wait until he finally gives up and lets go
-Mark the moment and offer him a rebite
-Go back to playing with him

Any biting your person is marked NO and corrected heavily

Your basic dog training rule of thumb: Reward what you like Punish what you dont.

Thats the quick and dirty version. Your best bet is to find a trainer that is balanced in their approach and has proven success with these dogs.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Well the bad news is that you have an out of control biting teenage shepherd. The good news is you have a biting teenage shepherd hehe he

I jest, but seriously putting a positive spin on it really helped me stay patient with my land shark so I pass on the advice I was given - when your gsd bites you in play like that it is him choosing to engage in play with YOU. It means he is bonded with and focused on you! Be happy with the relationship and teach him to interact with you on your terms.  

That said.. can you give us a bit more info about his training and behavior history? If you dont mind I have a few things in particular I would like more information on. 

Is fetch his only form of exercise? Do you walk cujo regularly? 

What type of training sessions are you doing? Reinforcing things he has already learned? Teaching new things? What training methods do you use?

My initial thought to your post is your boy is either not being physically or mentally exercised enough. A few weeks ago my dog had to be quarantined and we were temporarily unable to properly work him. He acted much like your boy. It was a pretty hellish week. I have found my boy needs variety. He is just a few months older then your guy and we do off leash walks in the woods, flirt pole, leashed walks through urban areas, fetch, tug, swimming, agility classes, training with IPO club, trick training, obedience training and we will be starting nose work soon. Every week. Remember these are working dogs they were designed to go all day long keeping sheep in line. What you are doing might not be enough. 



> He still does both and I'm losing my patience because hes getting more aggressive running back and forth when he knows he's in trouble, stops listening, and even gets on his back baring his teeth when I go to take him to timeout.*


I'm reading between the lines here but it sounds like your dog is picking up on your frustration. You say when he knows he is in trouble - dogs dont think like that. He is by picking up on your body language and tone of voice. Have you ever in frustration treated him roughly? Gave him a spanking? Alpha roll him? Even just yell at him or use a harsh tone? It sounds like to me you are displaying anger when the dog misbehaves. The dog is of course going to avoid you while you are angry! When you do finally catch up to him he drops into a submissive pose, belly up on his back. He is surrendering to you saying please don't hurt me. You are stronger then I am. When you grab his collar to put him in time out you are breaking the code of honor amongst dogs so to speak. In dog language the display is over when the submissive dog rolls. A mentally stable dog lets up on the attack/posturing once that happens. By you grabbing the collar, verbally reprimanding or man handling the dog in this situation you are doing the K9 equivalent of kicking him when he is down. Thus the teeth baring. 

When you say you have established yourself as alpha - what exactly do you mean by that?

If you have been using dominance theory dog training you may want to rethink your position, as it clearly isn't working for you. It's been mostly debunked by science anyways 

https://apdt.com/pet-owners/choosing-a-trainer/dominance/

It seems like you have been telling your dog what not to do. Have you tried showing him what you want instead? Like with the jumping on people. Has he been taught to sit and greet? Have you tried using the touch command for greeting? Those are behaviors that conflict with jumping up. He can't do both and if you are fair, firm and consistent he will choose the behavior that gets him rewarded. 

Also don't discount the value of a trainer. A set of experienced eyes on your handling skills is priceless! I'm sure if you look around you can find something affordable. Try contacting your local humane society, aspca, shelters etc. I know a few that actually offer free training consultations.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Gsd_Bane said:


> My pup is 9 months old, we play fetch with him several times a day and do several training sessions with him but he still bites at hands and feet and jumps up on people. I've read several articles on things to do like redirecting with a toy, ignoring him, everything.


For me, there's a big difference on how I'd shape behavior from the very beginning with a young puppy, and what I'd be doing with a bratty 9 month old dog that has been practicing bad behavior for awhile. A 9 week old puppy biting at hands and feet and jumping on people is nowhere near the same as a 9 month old doing the same things. Redirecting and ignoring are not good options at this point. 



> He gets more then enough play time and he basically gets attention 24/7. I've established myself to him as the alpha but I'm running out of ideas.


Lots and lots of play time and constant attention. How much down time does he get? Is he crate trained? What did you do to establish yourself as alpha? It doesn't sound like you're the leader in this relationship at all, he is. He's catered to 24/7, he doesn't obey, and he bares his teeth at you when he doesn't get what he wants. 



> I know this is for the most part "normal shepherd behavior" but I'm not made of money and anything a trainer can do I know I can do but I need some help and encouragement.


This is normal behavior in the sense of a dog that has never learned any boundaries or been trained what is and is not appropriate. I've never had a 9 month old dog act that way because all of that would have been nipped in the bud long ago. You definitely do need some help. I think you're wrong that anything a trainer can do you can do. If you knew as much about dog training and behavior as a qualified trainer, you wouldn't be in this situation because you would have already done whatever a trainer would have done. I'm not saying this to be mean, nobody is born knowing this stuff. But you do need to understand that you have to start fixing this soon, and you're not going to be able to do it on your own. If you post the general area you live, maybe people can suggest some trainers to contact.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

How does your dog behave around other dogs? What kind of training have you done with him? 

If he's not dog-aggressive, and you're not willing to hire a one-on-one trainer, consider enrolling in a group obedience class w/an instructor knowledgeable in GSDs. The classes are fun!--and not that pricey. I've been taking Asher to classes since he was 10 weeks old...he's over a year now. We're going to try some rally and agility classes next. There are always new things to learn and an outsider can sometimes help us see perspectives we couldn't on our own. If my dog bared his teeth at me, I'd definitely ask for help on this forum because there are lots of experienced folks on here, but I'd also ask a trainer for help in person--it's hard to get the whole story online, and people can't see firsthand how my dog and I interact.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Lying on his back and baring teeth shows fear aggression. You may have coming on too strong for him. Dogs don't play tricks, they show their true emotions. It is the ultimate surrender besides peeing long with it. If you continue to be hard on him, he probably will bite since he thinks _you_ have turned into a Cujo.
Instead step back, call him to you and give hi a command that you know he can easily follow up n that situation to repair the bond with him you need.
And yes, definitely look into the prong collar. Leerburg has good material.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Exactly what Blitz said. 

I had a young male malinois like this who was pushing his owners around. Very social guy, he was just acting like a brat. The biting and jumping stopped in one correction. This a pup who had shredded his owner's clothes. Never happened again when I worked him (I rehomed him). Along with training a structured fetch, and recall, the dog is a dream in the right hands. Great working prospect. It's really fun to work with a dog like this because they are just seeking guidance.

Finding a knowledgeable trainer can be difficult. In this example, the original owners of this dog tried time outs in a crate and x-pen and the dog started getting really pissed off about that and screaming and struggling when they dragged him for a "time out". AND the owners tried taking him to an expert who told them the pup was "a throw back to the wolf" and incorrigeable... this a "certified behaviorist!!!" 

This wonderful dog could have been put down because of this absolutely terrible advice. This dog is completely confident, social with people and dogs, great drives, and trainable. Very nice specimen all around. Just poor handling, lack of structure, no corrections, and no proper training led to a ton of frustration for all. 

Please read and re-read Blitz's post. He is spot on in how to handle this.

If you do go to a trainer make sure it is someone who actually has a clue on how to train a GSD or working type dog (eg. malinois). Do not take just anyone's advice, because there are so many "trainers" out there who have no idea how to deal with GSDs and similar breeds.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wolfy dog said:


> Lying on his back and baring teeth shows fear aggression.


But look at the context - dog is rolling on his back when the OP is trying to get him to go to a timeout. If I grabbed a dog's collar and tried to walk it to its crate and it dropped to the ground, rolled on its back and bared teeth at me, I'd see that more as defiance, a "try and make me" situation.


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## Gsd_Bane (Mar 18, 2016)

Thank you everybody I really appreciate the responses. When it comes to training, when he knows theres treats involved, he will literally do anything I say, he is very food driven. I praise him aswell. I dont know the exact number but we have hundreds of hours of training under our belt but he just seems to ignore it all when somebody comes over. Along with the fetching we walk him religiously and try to flag anybody down with a dog to let him have some meet and greets (he does great with other dogs when allowed to meet with them). People are very intimidated by him ofcourse but they were even when he was a small puppy. I also failed to mention we just got him neutered last Friday and he's been couped up the passed week and a half so that's been fueling my frustrations hence the late night venting On here (He's nowhere near cujo ofcourse). The main problem we've been having is the jumping and biting when he's bored (which he's been bored for a while now while he heals). I've looked into the prong collar for him pulling on walks and jumping on guests but I've been reluctant to get it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> But look at the context - dog is rolling on his back when the OP is trying to get him to go to a timeout. If I grabbed a dog's collar and tried to walk it to its crate and it dropped to the ground, rolled on its back and bared teeth at me, I'd see that more as defiance, a "try and make me" situation.


I think Wolfy and I are reading between the lines with the "I'm losing my patience" and "when he knows he is in trouble". What we see is a young pup not taught good boundaries and an owner that is not speaking very good dog language. 

If you grab a dog that is belly up on its back submissive that you have just been yelling "bad dog!" at... I agree with wolfy that looks like fear.

What I think is most important here is that the OP gets with a trainer. We can not see how this person is handling the dog. If they are doing what wolfy and I are seeing then they will have a fear bitter on their hands.

Wolfy - please forgive that I spoke for you here. If I am off Base please let me know. 

OP - As you can see there are two conflicting opinions on your dog's behavior. Please try to get with a trainer so they can do a proper evaluation so you can atleast figure out exactly what you are dealing with.


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## Gsd_Bane (Mar 18, 2016)

The only time we "yell" at him would be when we are telling him no or off, and that's if he keeps doing the same thing over and over when he's not supposed to. I don't sit there yelling long responses at him. And the "alpha" thing is more when he bites or nips at me or somebody else looking to play. As for the man handling there is really nothing else I can do to get him into timeout. He has a great life i can tell you and we treat him so good. The bratty stuff just really tests our patience which we know and understand it happens but **** it can be exhausting


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> Thank you everybody I really appreciate the responses. When it comes to training, when he knows theres treats involved, he will literally do anything I say, he is very food driven. I praise him aswell. I dont know the exact number but we have hundreds of hours of training under our belt but he just seems to ignore it all when somebody comes over. Along with the fetching we walk him religiously and try to flag anybody down with a dog to let him have some meet and greets (he does great with other dogs when allowed to meet with them). People are very intimidated by him ofcourse but they were even when he was a small puppy. I also failed to mention we just got him neutered last Friday and he's been couped up the passed week and a half so that's been fueling my frustrations hence the late night venting On here (He's nowhere near cujo ofcourse). The main problem we've been having is the jumping and biting when he's bored (which he's been bored for a while now while he heals). I've looked into the prong collar for him pulling on walks and jumping on guests but I've been reluctant to get it


Ahh there it is!!! I know exactly how you feel!!!! Poor boy is going stir crazy. When mine was your age he had to be quarantined in home for 10 days. No walking. No being off leash at all. No classes. Nothing. He was a completely different dog!!! He had NEVER been destructive before that but during that week - He ate my couch. Busted out his crate. Killed the mini blinds. Left bruises aaaall over me. Fought with the other dogs. Etc. 

He went back to his sweet well behaved self once he was able to exercise properly again.

You might want to consider shifting away from treat training and move towards play based rewards for the behaviors he already knows. I only use treats now to shape new behaviors. Start building drive for the tug. A good quick game of tug as a reward is a fantastic outlet for biting. I'm a firm believer that dogs need outlets for their behaviors not just suppression in order to be mentally stable. Plus it helped my guy's "i know you don't have any cookies so why should I sit" train of thought those teenagers get into.

One more question about training! Where do you do most of your training at? In the living room? In the back yard? At the park? In times square?  You might be inadvertently setting your pup up to fail by not training him around distractions. I would work on proofing behaviors when crazy exciting things are going on around him. Try doing sessions at parks, in pet stores, in parking lots, voluntell friends and family to be your distractors. My poor dog yesterday had to do a long down stay while his favorite playmate (my boyfriend) was waving the flirt pole around with his favorite lure on it lol. Of course start with low and mild distractions and build your way up. 

I like to teach conflicting behaviors instead of punishing natural ones. Sit to greet. If jumping is a problem down stay to greet. Does your dog know the place command? When I have guests over my boy does not get to greet them at all. He goes to place and then I may or may not allow him to greet after he clearly has calmed down.

I don't use a prong on my gsd. I always exhausted other options first. I mean I do own a prong. It's actually sitting on my coffee table right now. That said, they are not an evil thing (I do find they are over recommended and improperly used way too often though) I believe they were invented by a vet as a more humane alternative to choke collars.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Gsd_Bane said:


> I've looked into the prong collar for him pulling on walks and jumping on guests but I've been reluctant to get it.


 I'm just a pet owner who spends a lot of time training dogs, so I'll let others offer training advice. But I will chime in about the prong collars. I LIKE them. I have used them with both of my shepherds, and have had good results. 

Well, if your dog isn't aggressive towards other dogs, and if he isn't too unruly in public, maybe try enrolling him in an obedience class with an experienced trainer. Maybe there's a shutzhund or GSD club in your area? A class would give him some "work" to do and might provide some good bonding time for you two. It sounds like you spend a lot of time with him... have you considered getting involved in a dog sport? Maybe he needs an outlet for all that energy. Of course you'd have to work on the jumping/biting/bratty teenage stuff first...??


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I like to teach conflicting behaviors instead of punishing natural ones. Sit to greet.


 Yes! This is what our trainer taught our class about jumping. I didn't have that problem with my last shepherd. He was very aloof. Asher, however, is VERY friendly. He used to like to jump and smooch when strangers greeted him. I don't let him interact with passersby unless they ask if they can pet him. Then I say yes, but I explain that I'm trying to teach him not to jump. I put Asher in a sit and tell them to stand back and not touch him if he breaks his sit. With consistency and repetition that has worked very well for us. I'm quite happy with how he acts in public! At the house, however, we still have some work to do. We don't have visitors too often, so we don't get to practice much. I keep his leash by the door and leash him when ppl knock or visit so that he doesn't forget his manners.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

voodoolamb said:


> If you grab a dog that is belly up on its back submissive that you have just been yelling "bad dog!" at... I agree with wolfy that looks like fear.


I get what you guys are saying, I'm just not entirely sure it's submissive behavior. It sounded more like the dog is flopping to the ground to avoid the timeout, which is what I was referring to as far as context: *...and even gets on his back baring his teeth when I go to take him to timeout.* It's hard to tell for sure the way the OP described the situation.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Gsd_Bane said:


> The only time we "yell" at him would be when we are telling him no or off, and that's if he keeps doing the same thing over and over when he's not supposed to.


I don't think he understands what he is and is not supposed to do. If he keeps doing stuff you don't want and you are to the point of yelling at him, then it's time to try something else. What you're doing is clearly not working. He either knows exactly what you expect of him and is deliberately not complying (why? how does he benefit from defying you?) or he really has no idea. Being yelled at when you don't have clear guidance of what you should be doing is frustrating and confusing, and some of his behavior may be a reflection of that. Also, when he's amped up, YOU should be the opposite. Yelling at him is not going to calm him down, it's going to amp him up further. Take a breath, relax, project calmness. I know this is sometimes difficult to do in the heat of the moment, but it helps. 



> And the "alpha" thing is more when he bites or nips at me or somebody else looking to play.


I don't think that worrying about who is alpha is particularly helpful to the situation or beneficial to the relationship. And if you have to yell at your dog to get him to comply, then he's not seeing you as the alpha anyway. Here are some sticky threads about establishing leadership that have a lot of good information. Please read them when you have a chance: 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...hods/89990-how-do-you-define-being-alpha.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ant-understand-become-better-pack-leader.html



> As for the man handling there is really nothing else I can do to get him into timeout.


Under what circumstances do you put him in a timeout? Is that in a crate? Does he spend time in a crate when he's not being punished? 

Our dogs go into their crates each night voluntarily and wait for me to close the door. When we leave the house, they go to a chain link pen in the garage with a dog door to an outside run. All I have to do is say "let's go outside!" and they run out to the garage, go into the pen, and sit and wait for me to give them a treat. There's a cabinet next to the gate with a bucket of dog biscuits on it, and every time they go into the pen, every single time, they get a biscuit. Keefer will be 11 in August and Halo turned 7 in November, and we still give them a treat for going into the pen. I have NEVER had to chase them down and force them to go in because from day one it's been a positive experience. 

When they were young I gave them a treat every time they went into their crates too, but I haven't done that for years. There are other things you can do, such as feeding meals in the crate. Many people are opposed to using the crate for timeouts but I've done it for a long time, and it has never been a problem. Since being in the crate already has positive associations, when I say "timeout!" and point to the crates, they go in and I close the door. No struggle, no having to drag the dog by the collar.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> I get what you guys are saying, I'm just not entirely sure it's submissive behavior. It sounded more like the dog is flopping to the ground to avoid the timeout, which is what I was referring to as far as context:*...and even gets on his back baring his teeth when I go to take him to timeout.*It's hard to tell for sure the way the OP described the situation


Yep. And I can see what you guys are saying. 

If anything it is a really good testament of why it is so so important to have a real in person trainer to evaluate the dog. Similar descriptions for two very different behaviors.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Lying on his back and baring teeth shows fear aggression. You may have coming on too strong for him. Dogs don't play tricks, they show their true emotions.


No..its not.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Forget the Alpha stuff. Forget redirection etc. These behaviours as described are not rare nor are they real aggression.
> What you are describing is typical bratty protest behaviours. He probably knows you dont like much of what he does but he also knows you cant make him stop so like most teenagers he will continue .
> 
> Step 1: Basic obedience
> ...


What do you do when the dog takes the tug and runs off, then drops it, if you have a long line on him, and call him, he comes back without the tug. 

Mine takes the tug sometimes out of my reach and drops it. If I had the long line, I could pull him back, but it would be without the tug.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Then you use the line to restrain him from the tug and get up to the tug while restraining the dog from it with the line. I then steal or kick the tug reengaging the dog with it. When he picks grabs it, I praise and move backwards lightly popping the line until the dog gets to me. I then reward with a little tug and party.
If the dog drops the tug a lot then don't let him get to far out until he shows good consistency in holding and carrying it.


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