# we all know dog parks are bad, what about puppy classes??



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

paid $100/pup to go to a puppy class, trying to do all the right things. i know my pups are a little bit wild, i mentioned this to the trainer running it, she asked me if they have been socialised,  it's a puppy class???

after 30 minutes of listening all about products to buy for the pup and how all our pups should be on science diet becuase it is the best and then a lecture on why we should book our pups in for spay neueter like right now before we leave that day??? i said i had concerns about chronic incontinence spaying a 8/10wo pup, bad question to ask - i am causing my dog cancer by not spaying her at 10 weeks???

anyhoo when we finally got thru the product sell we were to let our puppies meet each other after they had all been tethered to our seats and gone thru the whole curiosity phase and were now all asleep from boredom - the deal was we all stand there with hands in pockets let the pups all loose and under no circumstances are we to pick up or pet or acknowledge any pup no matter what happens in order for them to gain confidence and not rely on the owner for comfort protection etc.

i did not think was a good idea knowing my pups - it went bad as my pups are like wolf-cubs, snarly gaurding horrible little things and the other pups were all gsd's, my pups have been around a large male gsd from since when they were born and are all over him playing tug, wrestling etc every day. the other pups had never seen another dog since they were taken from their litters from 5 - 8weeks old. 

i could not stand what i was seeing so i picked my pups up and removed them and threw them in the truck - the trainer in the middle of it was just yelling "we need some calming energy....don't pick up yr pups...." over and over, what a mess. 

i am sure some pups just developed some serious issues they will have permanetly imprinted on them.

is this normal for puppy classes?? should i have put my hands in my pockets and just let my pups traumatise and cruel other people's puppies??


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

My puppy class I go to has us ignore spats between the young pups too, but none get super intense, sometimes some get too bitey and another dog will yelp and that is all the correction they needed. If yours are being too mean I think it's understandable what you did, but I do think they will NOT learn how to play gently until you let them roughhouse and make mistakes upsetting other puppies and realizing too rough ends the game, and it's better to do that while young. If you continue to pull them away from dogs while young it will make it much worse when they're larger

I dont like the sound of the other aspects of your class though, also if you were concerned about your puppies being too rough the trainer shouldnt say "no matter what happens dont interfere" they should address your concerns and offer constructive help, maybe a different kind of socializing for your guys


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

To be honest, I think the first red flag was the class instructor letting one person bring two puppies to the same class. 

Not all puppy classes are created equally. Puppy classes are, generally speaking, a good idea. But your class in particular does not sound like the best example. Rather than decide they are all bad news, try a different class with a better instructor. 
Sheilah


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

my 2 cents on puppy socialization, they dont need it, it really does not do alot from my point of view, others will say it gets them used to greeting other dogs, I would rather train them to ignore other dogs, less problems, best way I can put it is how many people in your life time have you encountered that you instantly did not like? dogs would be the same, except hackles would go up, teeth shown, barking and growling, lunging, having trained both ways, i`m a firm believer now in training to ignore them, I can and have walked anyone of my 3 past a growling snarling dog, and no reaction from any of mine , but like I said, this is my experience


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Well...the part about the food and spay/neuter has never happened to me. All of my trainers either feed really high end kibble or raw. They also wait to spay/neuter if at all. In the puppy class, my puppy was allowed to play at the end of the class, it was 5 minutes. My puppy was 13 weeks at the time and there was only one other other puppy that was like 6 months and GSD mix. My puppy did well with that puppy and held her own quite nicely. I think if there were smaller pups in the class I might have had the same problem, because GSD's play rough right out of the womb...I think


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh and it might be a good idea to take your pups separately so they don't feed off of each other and gang up on other dogs.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

llombardo said:


> All of my trainers either feed really high end kibble or raw.


 
most gov agencies and vets think science diet IS the highest end kibble you can get??

like the idea of taking one pup at a time, it is a 4 week course for $100/per pup that is two sessions ....just sayin. good idea tho

i have always found gsd pups to be the most timid and needy??? my new pups are not gsd's.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

x11 said:


> most gov agencies and vets think science diet IS the highest end kibble you can get??
> 
> like the idea of taking one pup at a time, it is a 4 week course for $100/per pup that is two sessions ....just sayin. good idea tho
> 
> i have always found gsd pups to be the most timid and needy??? my new pups are not gsd's.


I think there are lots of vets out there that think that, but I have never ran into it. They are happy with my dogs eating Fromm and recommended I didn't switch the food. I know the training is expensive, but unless you belong to some kind of club that gives discounts I don't know if it will ever get much cheaper. What kind of pups are your new ones?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I think the window of socialization closes just as puppies get to start classes. I think they're a good idea for teaching people how to start training their puppies, and I think Ken is right about teaching them to ignore other dogs. 

Personally it doesn't sound to me at all like a puppy class I would EVER want to take, and definitely not the way the puppy "kindergarten" I took mine to was run. We were definitely careful to match pups together and only if they seemed ok to introduce more, depending on age, and the instructors didn't even go into food or speutering. It was about teaching focus and starting basic things.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

llombardo said:


> What kind of pups are your new ones?


 
annoying ones....jk.

let me get some vids up to show you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

x11 said:


> is this normal for puppy classes?? should i have put my hands in my pockets and just let my pups traumatise and cruel other people's puppies??


No, and no.  You also shouldn't have gotten a lecture on food or speutering, that's really not the trainer's business and apparently also not their area of expertise.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I don't think I could have hacked that class. When I went to puppy class (and will again when I have my new pup..hopefully class times will work out in my favor), it was more of a beginning to obedience, with you mainly interacting with your pup and the trainer helping. Socialization was like llombardo's experience, maybe 5 minutes at the end. My pup was very confident, and not at all fazed by the pups bouncing around him, most of which were little breed dogs. I just wanted him to get used to being near other dogs and people and for it not to bother him. It didn't, so it worked out great for us.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I never did puppy class, but did a puppy social time with a newly opened local pet store(disaster!) The person running it was a Cesar Milan wanna be....I contacted the pet store owner to let them know if that continued at their place, it would not benefit their reputation. He took my advice.

If you have a working breed that isn't the same as the other pups yours are trying to 'socialize' with, it doesn't work...completely different play style. 
I would have walked out of the one x11 went to. My time is too valuable than to listen to that.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would have walked out and not looked back..

I do agree taking one at a time. 

The first thing that would have left a bad taste with me was the Science Diet and s/n lecture..

Sounds like ya found a real idiot trainer there


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No, and no.  You also shouldn't have gotten a lecture on food or speutering, that's really not the trainer's business and apparently also not their area of expertise.


It depends....most...if not all.....the puppy classes over here are run by Vet clinics and taken by vet nurses or vets. If you take a puppy class run by a vet clinic expect all the info on products, desexing, nutrition.....if you don't want any of that you may have to find one not run by a vet clinic.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

That is totally weird. The puppy classes at our club are nothing like that. In a one hour class we work on a our basic obedience exercises, there's a 10 minute break in the middle, and at the end a 10 minute sit down where the instructor will talk about health care things. Some of the things I remember are brushing teeth, taking a pulse, clipping nails, stuff like that. Also that end time is also used to answer questions about problems. 

And the entire first class is without the puppies and only about equipment and Q&A. There is no puppy play time. There is a "pass the puppy" around the circle. Some puppies are too timid and get to sit out on this exercise. 

Everything is fun for the puppies in our class. And on the last class we have puppy races (recalls) which is fun because 2 go at once and sometimes the puppy will run to the other owner. LOL! Musical puppy sits, like musical chairs except the last puppy to sit and hold it is "out". And one one of the sessions there is puppy agility equipment. 

Socialization doesn't mean the puppies have to play with each other. Just being in the same space and observing non-threatening people and puppies is good socialization. 

I'm sorry you had to go through this and to pay $100!


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would have walked out and not looked back..


 
done did it, i don't like coming across as a know it all or know better type person so gave the pro the benefit of the doubt until my thresholds got exceeded, if i had a stronger personality i would not have let it get that far. personally tho i would not go as far as calling someone else a "real idiot" that gets a bit subjective imo, different perspectives on training sure, do things i was not comfortale with sure, real idiot - i would not go that far myself.

the other folks there had absolutely no idea about raising a dog and altho most here would disagree with the science diet, the product sell and the spay neuter of baby puppies, it is kind of the mainstream view and a view backed by the majority of most mainstream vets as sparra mentioned so "real idiot"??


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

FlyAway said:


> I'm sorry you had to go through this and to pay $100!


err $100 per pup...not complaining just sayin.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Was this awhile ago? I saw the "puppies" were born in October 2011. :thinking: How old were they when they were in the class?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

x11 said:


> err $100 per pup...not complaining just sayin.


Yikes... that could have bought some really nice steak for all of you.

Disturbing, how many idiot trainers are out there, ruining people's dogs.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

FlyAway said:


> That is totally weird. The puppy classes at our club are nothing like that. In a one hour class we work on a our basic obedience exercises, there's a 10 minute break in the middle, and at the end a 10 minute sit down where the instructor will talk about health care things. Some of the things I remember are brushing teeth, taking a pulse, clipping nails, stuff like that. Also that end time is also used to answer questions about problems.
> 
> And the entire first class is without the puppies and only about equipment and Q&A. There is no puppy play time. There is a "pass the puppy" around the circle. Some puppies are too timid and get to sit out on this exercise.
> 
> ...


This describes my puppy class experience.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Was this awhile ago? I saw the "puppies" were born in October 2011. :thinking: How old were they when they were in the class?


my pups were 10 weeks or maybe a bit younger, yes post is after the fact. just wondering peoples opinions on puppy class, didn't work out for me but that doesn't mean it is the same for everyone - thought it would be a discussion starter is all, i would have been to emotional to post at the time and said something more negative about the whole deal. 

see the therapy is doing me good..jk


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Are you in the US or another country? I'd think "typical" would depend on where you live.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

in oz, still a fledgling training culture unfortunately


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## AngieW (Nov 13, 2012)

Our puppy class was nothing like that at all. I thought ours was great. 

I did learn really quickly that I HAD to take Kylie for her 2-mile walk before the class or she was too hyper.

I haven't had problems at the dog park though. We go every weekend and she has a fantastic time. She usually manages to find another puppy within 2 months of her own age to wrestle with. Today she wrestled in and out of the water with a 6mo puppy (she is 8mo). I love how worn out she is after the dog park.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

x11 said:


> *most gov agencies and vets think science diet IS the highest end kibble you can get?? Was this a question or were you making a statement?*
> 
> *like the idea of taking one pup at a time, it is a 4 week course for $100/per pup that is two sessions ....just sayin. good idea tho*
> 
> i have *always found gsd pups to be the most timid and needy*??? my new pups are not gsd's.


 
*HUH? *

*Interesting thoughts!*

Where did you see this about "most gov. agencies and vets"? Many vets (mine included) SELL Science Diet so they would certainly say that about SD, do you think? As far as the "govt agencies" - which ones are you referring to that "think SD IS the highest end kibble you can get"? I would love to see their report. 

I feel bad for you if your experience with GSD puppies were really that bad (were these dogs that you actually owned, or simply pups that you saw briefly in a class?). It might have been very enlightening for your knowledge about our breed if you could have been fortunate to meet a more typical GSD puppy - bold, inquisitive and very pushy! (like mine).

What breed were you talking about taking to puppy class, on this GSD forum?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

it was statement - SD is highly reccomended by a lot of vets, they (SD manufacturers) prolly organise, teach and fund vets education on nutrition courses as well, yes there are i know millitary and police in two countries that use it. not sure if that means every k9 unit and millitary unit. and wheteher they think it is good, cheap or something else i do not know.

personally i do not use it - i feed raw and have also fed RC 4800 as an emergency back up, but basically 100% raw.

experience with my own gsd puppy has been great. many others on this gsd forum has not evidently.


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## V_Tess (Dec 30, 2012)

My puppy school experiences have been great. My first trainer was a retired military k9 trainer. My new trainer was his partner for 5 or so years, she is great also. Not a word about dog foods or neutering, just lucky I guess.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Ive broken my own advice and what my breeders told me- I bring Apache to a dog park. 3 weekends now, the first time she started off playing and then got knocked around and spent the rest of the time loving on all the humans and using them for cover from all the big dogs running full speed. The second time she was less nervous, and this weekend she was running after balls with other dogs and having fun. Still hiding under me when it gets hectic though. Big dogs have drooled on her and growled, Its not an issue, shes gaining confidence. It depends on your dogs temperament but imo any good gsd should be able to handle dog to dog interactions as well as being able to ignore them if their owner asks for focus. Im lucky and at the 2 classes weve done my girl has great focus, she learned heel in one 5 minute session? Today she was looking up at me and her steps matching mine during heel, And she runs as hard and fast as she can on recalls.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

x11 said:


> it was statement - SD is highly reccomended by a lot of vets, they (SD manufacturers) *prolly (??????) *organise, teach and fund vets education on nutrition courses as well, yes there are i know millitary and police in two countries that use it. not sure if that means every k9 unit and millitary unit. and wheteher they think it is good, cheap or something else i do not know.
> 
> personally i do not use it - i feed raw and have also fed RC 4800 as an emergency back up, but basically 100% raw.
> 
> experience with my own gsd puppy has been great. many others on this gsd forum has not evidently.


So what "govt agencies" say that SD is the best? I don't think that you answered that from your earlier post? Or maybe i just didn't understand which ones you said?

And what GSD puppies were so bad that you also described ion your earlier post? Your own GSD is not like one of the GSD puppies tha you described above, I.E. "NEEDY", is that correct?

Am I missing something or have you perhaps changed your mind from your earlier post about all of the GSD's?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

volcano said:


> Ive broken my own advice and what my breeders told me- I bring Apache to a dog park. 3 weekends now, the first time she started off playing and then got knocked around and spent the rest of the time loving on all the humans and using them for cover from all the big dogs running full speed. The second time she was less nervous, and this weekend she was running after balls with other dogs and having fun. Still hiding under me when it gets hectic though. Big dogs have drooled on her and growled, Its not an issue, shes gaining confidence. It depends on your dogs temperament but imo any good gsd should be able to handle dog to dog interactions as well as being able to ignore them if their owner asks for focus.


 
How can she be "gaining in confidence" when she hides under you? That is ridiculous - why bring a shy/timid dog to a place where she feels that she has to hide behind her owner?


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Every dog that is brought to a dog park acts that way unless they are crazy. Its like a kids first day at school. The last thing id want is for her to show up as a pup and act dominant. 
Now she starts off pawing at dogs, giving and taking space, then if they dont play she gets frustrated and barks while giving play body language. Its all good from my eyes. At training she is not scared at all with the new environment and all the dogs, but very focused.

Youd hide too the first time you saw a big dog running full speed at you, but its what dogs do and they all learn its ok. Dogs do play rough.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

codmaster said:


> I feel bad for you if your experience with GSD puppies were really that bad (were these dogs that you actually owned, or simply pups that you saw briefly in a class?). It might have been very enlightening for your knowledge about our breed if you could have been fortunate to meet a more typical GSD puppy - bold, inquisitive and very pushy! (like mine).


"Typical" hmmmm.......well......is it "typical" of the GSD breed anymore??
Where we went for puppy class the trainer said she had been doing it for a very long time and mine was one of few GSD puppies who didn't hide the entire time.....he was bold, inquisitive and very pushy but in her experience not typical.....


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

volcano said:


> Every dog that is brought to a dog park acts that way unless they are crazy. Its like a kids first day at school. The last thing id want is for her to show up as a pup and act dominant.
> Now she starts off pawing at dogs, giving and taking space, then if they dont play she gets frustrated and barks while giving play body language. Its all good from my eyes. At training she is not scared at all with the new environment and all the dogs, but very focused.
> 
> Youd hide too the first time you saw a big dog running full speed at you, but its what dogs do and they all learn its ok. Dogs do play rough.


Hrm your first sentence is pretty insulting. Fortunately, it is a fallacy.

Your dog is not a human and dog parks are nothing like a school -no structure or guidance provided to dogs at dogs parks. Comparing two things which are incomparable is well...Nevermind

Your last sentence in the second paragraph says it all ...she wants structure she is thriving from it! Why not take the dog-park-time and work with her? Incorporate training into exercise and build on your relationship!


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

In the last 10 years I have taken 3 different pups to puppy classes, and will always take my pups to puppy classes. I am fortunate to have a great trainer, who has her own GSD's as well. She has a NO contact rule for all pups/dogs and I totally understand and agree with that policy. Having a bunch of puppies run wild in a class room setting without the owners interacting with them just sounds ridiculous.
It's a shame that you had such a bad experience, when you have the right trainer it's not like that at all and class shouldn't have anything to do with purchasing any type of products unless it's specific to some sort of training aid for some sort of issue if needed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My club runs a puppy class that is more for new dog owners, or new GSD owners. Dogs are allowed in there until they are 6 months old, and there isn't too much contact allowed unless all the dogs are about the same age. The instructor does go over a lot of things that would be boring for knowledgeable owners, they do not push any kinds of food or speutering (most of the dogs at our club aren't anyways). They do go over potty-training basics, ask if anyone is having issues, and the instructor tries to cover how THEY would work on it. If you don't agree with their method, don't do it, but it worked pretty well for me. Usually the instructor is someone that has had/bred GSDs for a very long time. Our current instructor is an AKC conformation judge who has had a grand vixtrix in her breeding program, so I'd trust her advice with most things lol.

Club members (presumably have had more than one dog and know each other) are allowed a little more freedom and allow their dogs to interact with a little more rough housing. We also get a lot of siblings, so of course they're allowed to play however they pretty much want. At the end of the day, its unlikely that a sibling can do that much damage to the psyche of its liter mate.

The class doesn't cover a lot of obedience, they show how to train sit, down, they practice a recall with tons of praise. The puppies get to check out some minimized obedience obstacles, like a 6 inch high a-frame and a tunnel. It's always in good fun, and there's nothing better than watching 10-20 GSD puppies romping around and enjoying themselves.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Zeus is 10 weeks today and will have a second set of shots on Saturday. He will be starting his puppy class next week! We are excited to do it, should be fun and hopefully some help with this crazy biting =)


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

volcano said:


> *Every dog that is brought to a dog park acts that way unless they are crazy.* Its like a kids first day at school. The last thing id want is for her to show up as a pup and act dominant.
> Now she starts off pawing at dogs, giving and taking space, then if they dont play she gets frustrated and barks while giving play body language. Its all good from my eyes. At training she is not scared at all with the new environment and all the dogs, but very focused.
> 
> Youd hide too the first time you saw a big dog running full speed at you, but *its what dogs do* and they all learn its ok. Dogs do play rough.


NOT all dogs act scared. Most will if they are scared in an overwhelming environment!

NO, not all dogs act scared and hide behind their owner - no matter what is going on around them. Some dogs do but some do not!

But as long as your dog's behavior is "all good from your eyes" - good for you!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

My own pup would have thrived in that environment - he was a little bully in class whenever he thought he could get away with it. Took him a week before he started showing off as the first week he was pretty calm and laid back with the other puppies many which were bigger than he was then, by the third week he was the leader of the 10 or so puppies in the class. 

He was a very physical little puppy, but I agree with the rest that say that class and instructor sounds ridiculous!


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## zozocity (Feb 4, 2013)

ken k said:


> my 2 cents on puppy socialization, they dont need it, it really does not do alot from my point of view, others will say it gets them used to greeting other dogs, I would rather train them to ignore other dogs, less problems, best way I can put it is how many people in your life time have you encountered that you instantly did not like? dogs would be the same, except hackles would go up, teeth shown, barking and growling, lunging, having trained both ways, i`m a firm believer now in training to ignore them, I can and have walked anyone of my 3 past a growling snarling dog, and no reaction from any of mine , but like I said, this is my experience



What training techniques did you use on your dogs? Would love to have my pup ignore other dogs...


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I took Niko to a puppy class that had free play as well. My husband and I were also instructed to not interact with the puppies, which seemed really heartless since Niko was quite terrified of the exuberance of the Labrador puppies who all wanted to pile onto him. Niko tried to hide behind us, growled and barked at the lab puppies to keep them away, and refused to leave our side or interact with any puppies.

So the instructor made my husband and me leave the room, and leave Niko behind so he was forced to be alone with the other puppies. It did not help. Niko cried and scratched at the door we left through, then went to where our coats and stuff was and just sat there. 

We did this week after week, for the entire length of the class and he never improved. I desperately wish we had known more at the time and that we had not listened to the advice of the trainer. I think what we did went a very long way toward establishing Niko's fear of other dogs.

I am absolutely not saying that this kind of puppy class is bad for all dogs, but it is very important that you assess your puppy as an individual and determine if the style of the class is benefitting or harming your puppy.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

My puppy classes were awesome, we had one session with no dog, which was just a "this is the basic stuff we'll be working on"

Then I'd say every 2nd class was "Fight Night" where we would for the last 20minutes let the dogs alone to play, and we had to roughly 3 times in that 20minutes go get our dog, leash him/her, sit them, and force them to calm for a couple of seconds unleash them, and let htem play again. 

Any aggressive play the dogs were separated and the one who was being "Beat" on (For lack of a better word) was let go first, and if that puppy went right back to the puppy who was "beating" on it, then it was just fun play, if the puppy shied away from that pup, then we kept them apart (Never happened they all went right back at each other)

Lots of chasing, no growling, the puppies seemed to always pick the same dogs to play with, smaller dogs/calmer/nervous? were separated into a different section from the elephants (My dog and his sister) who just chased and tackled each other constantly.

Honestly right at the "Science Diet" part I'd get up and leave... food is such a matter of preference etc.

I can't believe that not fixing a pet is considered giving it cancer... its how nature built them... should we fix ourselves to prevent cancer? Seems a dumb reason 

Too bad you weren't in my glass way back when sounds like Draven would have LOVED being chased and wrestling with your pup.

***************

You also have to do your own research and stand your ground...for instance, I won't let anyone else correct my dog but me, if the trainer says I'm doing it wrong, I ask them to get their own dog out and show me how. 

There are many things Trainers suggest that I don't agree with and I won't do. I basically follow how I raise my children... Keep them safe, show them confidence, don't allow others to discipline them, have a strong firm hand / stance, lots of play and love / cuddle time (Well not with the GSD ... he's not so much into cuddles )

The trainers have had some bad things, like constantly treating my dog, or trying to correct him, or show me the "Right way" which is fine... I'm very new at this, but I don't learn things by someone else doing them on my dog


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Didn't read the other comments because I'm at work and 6am treatments are coming up.

MY thought - I hate most puppy classes, and I hate most group training classes for puppies. Both trainers I work with do private puppy training and group classes later on to proof with distraction.

My trainer and I actually talked about puppy classes last week. They usually occur at big chain stores like petsmart and petco. Most of the time, you have bad trainers. Sorry if you loved yours, but the majority should NOT be training, let alone molding young puppies.

Then it turns into a free for all, and they are sucking in so many bad habits because every little thing is burned into them. YOU need to be the one controlling every single interaction your young puppy has. Not that big mean bully in the corner pinning and biting your pup. Not that submissive peeing puppy teaching your puppy that if he's a mean bully he gets his way. I will NEVER EVER EVER agree with letting a group of puppies interact uncontrolled. THAT is how you are going to cause temperament issues with at least some of those puppies, I guarantee it. Your submissive pup will learn to be timid to avoid confrontation. Your dominant pup will learn to bully to get his way.

It only takes a few negative fearful encounters to turn a timid dog into a reactive fear aggressive dog. 

I say NO THANK YOU. People just have these ideas that all dogs need to be friends and love each other and want to play. And they don't always!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I should add, I think with a good trainer there is nothing wrong with a puppy class. I still prefer to train and socialize privately and completely on my own terms, but if managed properly there is no reason a group of dogs should cause a problem 

I don't want to label ALL group puppy classes into one


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Good_Karma said:


> I took Niko to a puppy class that had free play as well. My husband and I were also instructed to not interact with the puppies, which seemed really heartless since Niko was quite terrified of the exuberance of the Labrador puppies who all wanted to pile onto him. Niko tried to hide behind us, growled and barked at the lab puppies to keep them away, and refused to leave our side or interact with any puppies.
> 
> So the instructor made my husband and me leave the room, and leave Niko behind so he was forced to be alone with the other puppies. It did not help. Niko cried and scratched at the door we left through, then went to where our coats and stuff was and just sat there.
> 
> ...


 
WOW! What a stupid instructor you got stuck with! I might see trying it once for a few minutes but that would be it.

In our guys first puppy class (he was the minimum age of 12 weeks there were a couple of other little older puppies who liked to jump on all the pups in the play time as well. A Sheltie and a black Lab as i remember.

Baron was a little hesitant to roughhouse with these much older pups te first week - didn't run just kind of sat there, second week he joined in a little bit with playing but still not too much with these two; but by the third week it was a differenct story. He knocked the Sheltie flying with a big paw (He was GROWING in between the weekly classes!) a few times and knocked the Lab silly when he pounced on him.

Suddenly the owner of the Sheltie didn't want his puppy playing with Baron anymore (the guy as well as the puppy was a kind of a bully who thought it was so cute when his puppy was on the top of the hill!). He would actually pick his pup up when Baron came close to him during play time.

I had to redirect Baron some times when he would see the Sheltie and/or Lab (he wanted to go roughhouse with either or both of them!); but strangely enough there were a couple of puppies that Baron would play with much differently (like Sam, a Beagle puppy).

Could be that your instructor was hoping or expecting that your puppy would learn to play with the other puppies?

But that is certasinly no excuse for thm to let it go on so long!


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Codmaster, yes in hindsight, I can see what a huge mistake we made with that trainer. And I do think that she felt that because Niko was a German shepherd and was obviously attached to us, that our presence was inhibiting his playfulness somehow. But I am not sure how much actual experience she had with the breed.

As an aside, we were not taking classes at a pet store. This was at an established training/boarding/day care place called Eagle Ridge in Orchard Park, NY. I did like other aspects of their training programs but the way we had to do the free play session was completely wrong.


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## RiverDan (Mar 22, 2013)

Thanks for all the information in this thread. I think we will be skippy puppy class with Baron.
He is already behaving well with the dogs we meet on our walks. No growling, very little barking, and his tail is wagging all the time. Our neighbour has an eight month old mixed, and they play a little rough. But never mean. He is thirteen weeks old, and knows most of the important commands. Come, sit, leave it...etc.
Our only choice for a puppy class would be a big pet store. I'd hate to have a bad trainer and take a step back in his training.
Again, thanks for the information.


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## Fkennedy (Jan 10, 2013)

We had our very first puppy class last night. It was a very small class. The trainer said there will be free play but not the first class. She taught basic commands like sit, down, stay, etc. I was a little dissapoint because the main thing I want him to get from puppy class is socialization but there were only three puppies, picardy shepherd, cavalier, and Lincoln. So last night we keep them on leash the whole time and let them sniff each other. He met other dogs before and never have problem. But with that picardy last night, we feel like if we let him off the leash they will attack each other. They were about the same size and the same age. That cute cavalier was kinda mind her own business since she is so tiny compare to these two boys. Maybe I need to look for another puppy class?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Good_Karma said:


> So the instructor made my husband and me leave the room, and leave Niko behind so he was forced to be alone with the other puppies. It did not help. Niko cried and scratched at the door we left through, then went to where our coats and stuff was and just sat there.


Egads! We took the Sirius Puppy classes (developed by Dr. Ian Dunbar) with Dena, Keefer, and Halo, and they were great. They did allows some free play, but we actually used those play breaks as part of the training. No puppy was forced to interact with any of the other puppies if they didn't want to, and everyone in the class was instructed to redirect the more rambunctious puppies away from the more reserved ones. The class was almost entirely off leash, except for when we were working on leash skills, but if people were having trouble keeping their puppy's attention they could put the leash on and just drop it on the ground, so they could step on it, if necessary. The point was to keep our puppy engaged with us without relying on the leash. 

I remember when Dena was released to play she wasn't that interested in the other puppies, she would go suck up to all the other people for attention. :wub: And I had a hard time with Keefer because he knew *I* had treats and those other puppies didn't, so I'd try to shoo him away and he wouldn't go! Which was fine, it was awesome that he'd rather stay with me, even if he didn't have to. 

Halo was a rockstar in her classes, I'd release her to go play, then call her back, and she'd turn on a dime and rocket back to me, every time. We worked a lot on calling our puppies out of play, asking for a sit or down, then releasing them to play again, it was not a free for all where they could just blow us off. Here is Halo in week 2 of Puppy 1, at 14 weeks old - off leash, doing a down with eye contact while I hold treats in each hand:










You can see that even though there's a room full of puppies and people and she's not on leash, she's still fully engaged with me. After Puppy 1 we took Puppy 2, which was also mostly off leash. Here is my thread from that class - that night was 5 days before her 6th month birthday: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/108565-huuuuge-halo-bragg-long-sorry.html


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## Kodiak's Mama (Mar 14, 2013)

I took Kodi to his first puppy class when he was about ten weeks and it was a real "education" for the both of us. He was a little shy at first, the other dogs were bigger and older and more rowdy, but as soon as he matched them in size (and quickly surpassed them), he had a blast. As for how the class was set up, the teacher:dog ratio was fantastic. 3:4 generally. There was no chaos. Everything was carefully controlled play, no one was allowed to swarm a skittish dog. I asked the trainer about fixing Kodi and she said not to rush off and do it, he didn't have any dominance issues or try to be the big boy so wait until he was at least 9mo for developmental reasons. The trainer told me to switch to Diamond brand food and I am glad I did! At the end of seven weeks, Kodi had a repitoire of aquired skills, had emptied his bad of 100 "new people" treats and earned his AKC STAR puppy certificate. We loved puppy class so much, we are taking it again, reinforcing the things we already learned and the trainer is giving me extra homework to do. Kodi loves all his trainers and they drool all over him. (Or is it the other way around?) I am so glad I wound up at a good school. There were times when I had my doubts. I'm the kind who likes to understand the whys and hows of training. (How can I train my dog to do something if I don't understand it?) But asking questions is the best way to learn. And remembering that even an old dog owner can learn new tricks. But in choosing a puppy class, talking to the trainer for ten minutes can let you know if they have a heart for the job or if they are in it for money. Ask about playtime, positive reinforcement, how many weeks will the class be? Mine is for seven and I figured the more classes, the more we learn. Clicker training? How large will the classes be? And just because the classes are at a big-box store does not guarantee success or failure. Observe how they treat the "problem child" of the class. Do they give it more attention or get frustrated or irritated? Do they try to be "alpha" or expect too much? My puppy pooped in class on graduation day. The trainer cleaned it up. I hate to see so many people disliking and discouraging puppy classes when I know how much it has helped Kodi and me. Find the right trainer. They're worth their weight in gold.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

can i just say thanks to all the folks that put their experiences on this thread, i feel less stupid for what happened to me by reading other people's both good and bad experiences.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow that puppy class was gruesome. 

We might play pass the puppy toward the end of the class where one by one, everyone pets each puppy until your puppy gets around the circle to you. 

We really don't have a puppy-free-for-all in our classes. 

Puppy classes are learning obedience, not perfect, lots of praise, lots of changing, keeping the focus with the understanding that these are puppies.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

and i think if new owners read this thread, the good and bad, they will at least be going in with their eyes open.


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