# Article for all the reactive dog owners :)



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Something to make you smile. Better then frustration eh? 

How to live with a dog-reactive dog and not lose your stuff: An (im)practical guide


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Twyla said:


> Something to make you smile. Better then frustration eh?
> 
> How to live with a dog-reactive dog and not lose your stuff: An (im)practical guide


No link?


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## Zenkai (Aug 16, 2012)

Link doesn't work. But this is what I found on google.

http://bullinthecity.wordpress.com/...-and-not-lose-your-****-an-impractical-guide/


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

Zenkai said:


> Link doesn't work. But this is what I found on google.
> 
> http://bullinthecity.wordpress.com/...-and-not-lose-your-****-an-impractical-guide/


Made me smile. Thanks.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Ugghhh sorry the link is bad

Try this: http://bullinthecity.wordpress.com/...-and-not-lose-your-****-an-impractical-guide/

Posted the article below since I'm assuming language in the url and title is messing it up 

_______________________________

How to live with a dog-reactive dog and not lose your ****: An (im)practical guide


Posted on August 29, 2012
Many moons ago when I envisioned owning a dog I dreamed of taking my fictional dog to offleash parks for endless romps, lots of play-dates and generally a lot of problem and stress free dog-dog interactions. Then I got Jersey and this view abruptly changed. Offleash parks are not a part of my life and I honestly don’t even want to know what goes on in them. Every dog-dog greeting is carefully managed and controlled. I meticulously plan my walking routes based on likelihood of running into other dogs and ability to escape. I completely avoid any areas where offleash dogs congregate (meaning any piece of grass in Toronto) even if it means I am walking next to roaring traffic.Jersey has made some great strides in her behavior around dogs but it is still a work in progress

I won’t lie my life can be more difficult and complicated because of Jersey’s reactivity with other dogs. I have both cried in anger and despair and spent many hours worrying over her. But I would not change it for the world. NEVER. Jersey has forced me to become a far better dog owner than I would have been otherwise. In my attempts to help Jersey I have been forced to educate myself on not only aggression but dog behavior in general and get involved in training. To put things in perspective, if not for Jersey I might just be that person with their dog on an endless 100ft flexi lead cruising around the neighborhood and judging everyone with reactive dogs while simultaneously letting my dog get in there dogs grill. Plus I happen to think Jersey is absolutely fabulous.

am not going to outline a practical guide on how to deal with your dog’s reactivy as I will leave that up to the expert dog trainers. For that you can check out Grisha Stewart’s “Behavioral Adjustment Therapy”, anything by Jean Donaldson (“Fight” is her one specifically on dog aggression) or Emma Parson’s book “Click to calm”. Oh and it goes without saying that if you find yourself dealing with dog-dog reactivy (or any other serious issue) get yourselves into the hands of a qualified trainer. I am beyond serious. Do it.

What I am going to provide you with are my top ten tips on how to live with a dog-reactive dog and maintain some sanity (mostly through laughter).

How to survive dog-reactive dog ownership and keep your sanity

1.Embrace sunrises. I have experienced countless sunrises and moments of serenity and peace in a busy city by getting up to walk/run Jersey at the crack of dawn before other dog owners awake. If I weren’t for Jersey’s dog rectivity I would be pressing snooze and out dodging all the other 9 to 5′ers walking their dogs pre-work. Wow I should write for hallmark.

2. Pretend you are a ninja. Leaving my apartment is an elaborate operation. Put Jersey behind me. Peer out peep hole. Open door a crack and crane neck to make sure dog next door is contained in the apartment. Emerge. Beat a hasty retreat to building exit. Now a decision on which door to exit by. Peer out front door and make sure french bulldog is not out….etc etc. On my walks I scan for Jersey’s arch enemies the reactive German Shepherd and the staring Akita. I can sense their presence even at a distance and without seeing them. My reflexes and 6th sense are better than ever. I am a dog-aggression-avoiding ninja. All of this is less stressful when you imagine yourself as a stealthy ninja. Try it.

3. Cry but don’t hit. It is not okay to hit your dog for being reactive but it is okay to cry, ask whhhhyyyy and point your hands skyward in the general direction of some type of god. Don’t lie. You have done it.

4. Laugh at all the awkward moments. The other day I was talking to a gentleman from my neighborhood while out with Jersey. A dog appeared around the corner and I literally just darted away mid sentence without another word to the man. I have not seen this man since.

5. Get used to the smell of liver/your treat of choice. Carry them everywhere you go with your dog.They are your new best friend. Embrace them.There will be emergency situations where these treats will save your ass. Make sure to treat yourself to.Chocolate and alcohol generally do the trick (make sure you wash your hands first though)

6. Find other people with reactive dogs. Get together.Without your reactive rovers of course. RANT about how ridiculous dog owners in your neighborhood are. Laugh. Laugh more. Swap stories on dog reactivity.Reactive dog ownership can be a lonely world find others who understand

7. Think of all the funny places you end up in trying to avoid triggers. I have dove inside a bush, found myself far up somebody’s private driveway practically on their front step, hidden behind a pillar and crouched behind a low wall-all to avoid running into dogs.. Where have you ended up hidding from oncoming canines?

8. Sing to your dog. I have a neighbor with a very reactive dog who screams and spins like a top (the dog not the man).It never stops and I swear he is stalking me because I can never seem to escape him on walks. When I am becoming twitchy and irritated by him I sing a variety of songs to Jersey. The other day I sang “that’s alright..that’s okay..she’s gonna pump your gas someday” through clenched teeth and a forced smile.It helped. Dance parties in the living room are also a great way to unwind from a stressful walk (solo or in partnership with your dog).

9. Love and acceptance. Love your dog when they progress and love them still when they turn into snarling whiling dervishes. Never ever take any positive dog interactions for granted and savor (and reward) these moments. Accept your dog for who they are and set realistic goals.Jersey will never be a social butterfly but she is learning to make better choices when she see’s dogs on the street rather than lunging or barking.

10. When all else fails=whipped cream. Right out of the can. Repeat again and again as needed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That was great, be a Ninja, check out the peep hole, etc. 

Tonight I was in class with Gretta and the little terrier managed to get Gretta on the back. I yelled, OH NO YOU DON'T and marched forcefully away. 

The guy wasn't sure whether I was barking at his dog or at mine, but his wife told him I should have been yelling at his. I did let them know he clipped her on the back. And they were very apologetic. 

They are in the class because they need to be in the class, as I do. So I am not making any kind of big deal over it -- but for the Grace of God, and all that.


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Twyla that is so me right there. Every person with a reactive dog seem to think, cope, and live the same way. Talking about early walks this morning I got up at 5 in the morning, took the dog out thinking it would be all safe, and still ranned into a women with a off leash dog. I even had to yell to her to put her dog onleash, and she didn't have a leash!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Sounds like a ridiculous way to live, correcting the problem sounds easier to me. That being said I get that not all owners can handle a reactive dog so avoidance is the only solution. However that is not an approach that should be promoted... It limits the dog and the owner imo.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1....are you serious? Have you ever owned an aggressive/reactive dog or know anything about what makes a dog that way?

There is only so far you can train a dog....genetics play a huge role in aggression and temperament.

Rocky is two now and I have trained him and socialized a minimum of 5 HOURS a week at Petsmart/ the river/ etc since he was six months old.

That is over 30 minutes a day for 1 1/2 years...and I have paid over 1500$ for a trainer that after 1 year told me Rocky had progressed as far as possible and the rest of his fearful reactions were from genetics.

I am personally offended by your comment because I have to do some of the same things as this person. You think this type of behavior shouldn't be promoted?

So the people with fear aggressive german shepherds and pitbulls should risk other dog and peoples lives to "train", despite having trained the dog as much as they can?

*End of rant*


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

And you are right...it is a ridiculous way to live. But I decided to help my dog and once he could have no more help I decided to MANAGE him. You can't correct everything. It &#(%&&#(% sucks to have to crate my dog every time my friends come over, peep out the hallway, avoid fat people like the plague (one of his triggers)....but I do it because I refuse to endanger other people with my carelessness.


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

that was awesome


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## TurksPapa (Sep 6, 2012)

That is hysterical :laugh:


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

I LOVED this article (hubby and I were in giggles last night about it! - It is soo true!)

On my next 5am walk, I am going to be a singing Ninja


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Sounds like a ridiculous way to live, correcting the problem sounds easier to me. That being said I get that not all owners can handle a reactive dog so avoidance is the only solution. However that is not an approach that should be promoted... It limits the dog and the owner imo.


Not everything is so serious. Read the article the way it was meant..... HUMOR


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Twyla said:


> Not everything is so serious. Read the article the way it was meant..... HUMOR


Meant to be humorous, but still a real problem. I have learned to deal with Rocky in humor rather than getting mad.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

humorous , because it has a lot of truth. While working on Benny's reactivity I sometimes felt like a stalker, ducking into bushes, hiding behind trees when certain staring dogs approach, with owners who had little control.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I so needed to read this today. Thought I would walk a bit early today and avoid other dogs. NOPE!!! First dog encounter....good. We were quite a distance away and the other owner yelled that her dog was very aggressive. Was feeling quite amazed at my handling abilities...Stella sat and was fairly calm. Dog #2... Not bad either.... Had to walk past this dog that was just hanging out in his driveway. Took us a few attempts but eventually we were able to walk on by with no reaction. I was feeling like the dog whisperer. Then reality set it! Saw dog #3 coming toward us. OK, no biggie. We will just turn around. WHooPS... there comes dog #4 from the opposite direction.
So we get Cujo mode from Stella as dog #3 walks by. Dog #4 decides to turn and not deal with us (YAY). I am not the dog whisperer apparently. And I guess I need to hone my ninja skills:wild:


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Meant to be humorous, but still a real problem. I have learned to deal with Rocky in humor rather than getting mad.


Definitely a real problem. I have one I work with as well. I can spend the time working with Woolf angry, frustrated etc etc you know what I mean. That is the worse thing I could do for him, so rather look at all the 'adventures' we deal with and laugh at it. 

That is why I loved this article when I found it and posted it. It made me laugh, so if it can help the reactive dog owners get a laugh, even better.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Yes I have owned and worked with reactive dogs its nothing new. The bottom line is every time I go on walks I look for triggers so that the dog in question can go through the experience of dealing with a trigger and discovering that nothing bad happens. As long as it takes as often as it takes until the dog realizes that the world isnt as scary a place is it originally thought. As long as you can manage your own emotions and reactions as a handler you will make progress.

If my dog is on a leash and Im an able handler I fail to see how anyone is in danger...

Yes genetics play a role, Im not saying you can just let your dog off leash at family functions or go to the dog park on a regular basis, but yes you can go on a walk whenever you feel like it around whomever you feel like whether its around fat people, other dogs, asian girls whatever it is.. 
And yes your dog can have doggy friends and be around people.

Its not easy but it is possible, looking for triggers and avoiding them limits you and your dogs life.
Im not going to claim to be some big expert but I have seen two handlers try the same approach with the same dog and get two different results. 

You can take my statements as a personal afront if you like, but its my opinion based on observation and experience and I stand by it. Perhaps you should find another trainer that can go farther with your dog, just because one or even ten trainers cannot go farther with your dog doesnt mean there isnt someone that cant. I find that there are plenty quite a few lackluster trainers out there that assume because they cant do something no one can.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

katdog5911 said:


> I so needed to read this today. Thought I would walk a bit early today and avoid other dogs. NOPE!!! First dog encounter....good. We were quite a distance away and the other owner yelled that her dog was very aggressive. Was feeling quite amazed at my handling abilities...Stella sat and was fairly calm. Dog #2... Not bad either.... Had to walk past this dog that was just hanging out in his driveway. Took us a few attempts but eventually we were able to walk on by with no reaction. I was feeling like the dog whisperer. Then reality set it! Saw dog #3 coming toward us. OK, no biggie. We will just turn around. WHooPS... there comes dog #4 from the opposite direction.
> So we get Cujo mode from Stella as dog #3 walks by. Dog #4 decides to turn and not deal with us (YAY). I am not the dog whisperer apparently. And I guess I need to hone my ninja skills:wild:


You did well with the first three because you were calm and in control, you went into avoidance on dog 3, saw dog 4 (im betting thats when some stress kicked in because you knew what was coming) your dog picked up on that felt insecure and went back into her usual way of being around other dogs. Im betting if you kept moving towards dog 3 and remained as you were with the first 3 dogs you would have had a much more manageable reaction. 
Again thats just my anlysis perhaps im missing something..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Yes I have owned and worked with reactive dogs its nothing new. The bottom line is every time I go on walks I look for triggers so that the dog in question can go through the experience of dealing with a trigger and discovering that nothing bad happens. As long as it takes as often as it takes until the dog realizes that the world isnt as scary a place is it originally thought. As long as you can manage your own emotions and reactions as a handler you will make progress.
> 
> If my dog is on a leash and Im an able handler I fail to see how anyone is in danger...
> 
> ...


Your dog may be on lead, but the little Yorkie mix may not be, and its owner might not be concerned enough to call it to him. If it runs right up to your dog, whether on a flexi or loose, it might be history if you have a dog reactive dog. 

People have to be hyper-vigilant about other dog owners and their pooches because they do not want to be writing about how their dog chewed up some stupid owners dog and now they are trying to sue them.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If my dog is on a leash and Im an able handler I fail to see how anyone is in danger...
> 
> 
> Its not easy but it is possible, looking for triggers and avoiding them limits you and your dogs life.
> Im not going to claim to be some big expert but I have seen two handlers try the same approach with the same dog and get two different results.


If you are not an expert why did you ever post your training opinion and be negative about the story in the first place. I would love to see you take my dog's leash and walk up to "triggers" so happily.     Good luck! Please don't ever try to train any of your friend's aggressive dogs or their will be some one bitten at the end of that.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If you are not an expert why did you ever post your training opinion and be negative about the story in the first place. I would love to see you take my dog's leash and walk up to "triggers" so happily.     Good luck! Please don't ever try to train any of your friend's aggressive dogs or their will be some one bitten at the end of that.


I dont work with friends dogs people pay me to work with their dogs, I can always learn more I probably still wont be an expert after 20 years in dogs... As for your dog, I think you may be surprised how well she could do with her triggers... 

You can live your life worrying about what ifs and what may be. I dont concern myself with that I set a reasonable goal and work towards it. If the neighbors yorkie or pit runs up to my DA dog then I handle it...Im betting between me and my dog I can get the incoming pooch to hesitate and back off long enough for the owner to catch up..how do I know you may ask? Been in this situation a few times..key is not to panic and take control of the space your in. 
If the neighbors dog does get hurt its against the law for a dog to be off leash around here, their dog would be at fault so good luck with any law suits.. Bottom line is I believe that a dog should enhance my life and inturn have his life enhanced. 
Bad things can happe, thats life you cant avoid every dog or fat person or whatever avoidance only delays the problem it does not address it, thus your liability is increased.

Promoting a limited lifestyle is not helpful to the owners of reactive dogs or their dogs in my opinion. Lifes to short as it is.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Just to add, I dont need to be an expert to have an opinion on articles or literature of any kind. I have a mind, I can use my logic, observations and experience to inform my opinions.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have to say that IF Ninja was dog aggressive/dog reactive, she would have eaten the Yorkie in the park. It was rushing us, barking, circling, and paying no attention whatsoever to its owner. Ninja walked calmly at my side after the LEAVE IT command, and I got her to the car and in the car while the Yorkie was circling and yapping. If Ninja would have lunged at it, I could have probably held her back, but if it came into her it would be gone. There was no way I would be able to hold onto my snarling lunging dog AND catch the little dog. So I was very lucky she was not reactive and listened to me. If I had a dog reactive dog that needed exercise every day, I would be trying to find a time that few if any other dogs would be out and about, 2AM.


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

That was a great read!

Thanks for posting!


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I dont work with friends dogs people pay me to work with their dogs, I can always learn more I probably still wont be an expert after 20 years in dogs... As for your dog, I think you may be surprised how well she could do with her triggers...
> 
> You can live your life worrying about what ifs and what may be. I dont concern myself with that I set a reasonable goal and work towards it. If the neighbors yorkie or pit runs up to my DA dog then I handle it...Im betting between me and my dog I can get the incoming pooch to hesitate and back off long enough for the owner to catch up..how do I know you may ask? Been in this situation a few times..key is not to panic and take control of the space your in.
> If the neighbors dog does get hurt its against the law for a dog to be off leash around here, their dog would be at fault so good luck with any law suits.. Bottom line is I believe that a dog should enhance my life and inturn have his life enhanced.
> ...


Just a FYI - the article wasn't posted to promote a limited lifestyle. It's tongue in cheek about some of the things that maybe you haven't done, but many have while working with their reactive dog.

I am curious however, what would you do with your DA dog if training hasn't progressed far enough long yet, that he isn't ready yet to team up with you and handle the little dog. Do you try to force him through the experience? Or do you keep an eye out for the unexpected to avoid encounters until he is ready so that it is successful?


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Pretty amusing. 

While living in a place with no neighbor anywhere in sight, I don't have the walk problems. Worried about this when my job gets outsourced in January, if I have to sell my place. However, water meter folks, electric meter guys, UPS man all turn into a major ordeal if we're outside when they make their appearance. Having friends over entails crafty ways of taking Rey out for potty breaks while we play "everyone go thataway, and avoid the dog." It's even more challenging for overnight stays for my grandson. My granddaughter is only 2, so she can't even stay here because I can't trust that she wouldn't open a door when I tell her to stay put. Mine isn't just dog reactive, but also people reactive. I should feel privileged that she likes me and me only.  Oh, and she's loud-motor reactive, too. The Dyson is "the enemy." 

Then there's the poop phobia. That really wears me out.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

If your dog was aggressive or reactive, you would never have allowed it to get into that situation in the first place.

You have obviously never owned a genetically aggressive/reactive dog because you can't train out genetics. ANY trainer will tell you that. You can only go to a certain point. Pushing the boundaries can be dangerous.

If my dog was dog aggressive, I would check the hallway to make sure people didn't have their designer dogs or pits off leash before I went outside. That is the smart thing to do.

Luckily my dog is not aggressive. He just doesn't like people to walk up behind him or pop out of the complex hallway.

Are you really suggesting I "test" my dog by letting other people get as close as they want because I can "control the situation"? You can never control other people or dogs.

On a walk, a person can run up from behind us or walk by within two feet and Rocky completely ignores them. His training is impeccable.

However, he does not like being in tight spaces with strangers and no amount of training will fix this. So we avoid it happening.

I would rather live this lifestyle then have other people scared/injured by "testing" my dog around them. It is not "training" when you get down to genetics...it is whether or not they will bite because they are so poorly bred and scared.

I would not recommend any of these things you are saying on this forum in real life, for it would really suck if you got someone's dog euthanized for biting another dog or person.

PS>>You have every right to your opinion that people with aggressive dogs "just aren't training their dogs enough", which is how I summed up your post, but please don't dispense advice on a topic when it could lead to harm for others.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Sounds like a ridiculous way to live, correcting the problem sounds easier to me. That being said I get that not all owners can handle a reactive dog so avoidance is the only solution. However that is not an approach that should be promoted... It limits the dog and the owner imo.


It *is* a ridiculous way to live, and why most of us are going beyond traditional training and start working with people who *specialize* in fear aggression and are trained in techniques to work with it effectively. But if it were so darn easy, then so many fear aggressive and reactive dogs wouldn't end up euthanized then, would they? Honestly, were I still married, I know my ex would have taken Rey out in the woods and shot her months ago. I'm no novice to the german shepherd, and this third one is fear aggressive/reactive/panicked in a way I've never experienced before. "Correcting the problem" is no quick fix. In fact, traditional training cost my last very experienced trainer a fearful nip and a complete shutdown by the dog. If avoidance protects the animal, other animals and other people, so be it. It's a long journey with these dogs, and lots of time in between where you've been and where you're going.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> It *is* a ridiculous way to live, and why most of us are going beyond traditional training and start working with people who *specialize* in fear aggression and are trained in techniques to work with it effectively. But if it were so darn easy, then so many fear aggressive and reactive dogs wouldn't end up euthanized then, would they? Honestly, were I still married, I know my ex would have taken Rey out in the woods and shot her months ago. I'm no novice to the german shepherd, and this third one is fear aggressive/reactive/panicked in a way I've never experienced before. "Correcting the problem" is no quick fix. In fact, traditional training cost my last very experienced trainer a fearful nip and a complete shutdown by the dog. If avoidance protects the animal, other animals and other people, so be it. It's a long journey with these dogs, and lots of time in between where you've been and where you're going.


:thumbup:


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Twyla said:


> Just a FYI - the article wasn't posted to promote a limited lifestyle. It's tongue in cheek about some of the things that maybe you haven't done, but many have while working with their reactive dog.
> 
> I am curious however, what would you do with your DA dog if training hasn't progressed far enough long yet, that he isn't ready yet to team up with you and handle the little dog. Do you try to force him through the experience? Or do you keep an eye out for the unexpected to avoid encounters until he is ready so that it is successful?


I understand that I just think its sad so many people choose to live that way with their dogs.

To your second question, with a DA dog the first stages of my approach involve encountering other dogs as in seeing them / passing them at a distance while behaving on a leash, then passing closer and closer until we are at the point were we are a few feet away and relaxing. 
This involves seeking out other dogs being walked, dogs behind fences, people out and about etc. The busier the better. Im looking for triggers Im constantly challenging the dog, negative behaviors are corrected, posative rewarded. In the process the dog not only is exposed to triggers which if handled right become less exciting/scary..but also builds trust in me the handler when it comes to dealing with his "triggers". 

The dog does not team up with me when we are rushed by an off leash dog he defers to me, I step to meet the other dog I dont freeze or try to walk away. My dog knows I own the space we are in, he knows misbehavior will be corrected, the incoming dog will very quickly learn that I own that space as well. 
If the DA dog is fearful aggressive he will defer to you if you are calm, confident and in control. If you have a dominant/excited dog your leadership as a handler which is the first thing you establish sets the tone for encounters with anything unexpected.

Can it get hairy? Can bad things happen? Can you or your dog get bit? Yes, yes and yes but if you are confident in yourself, your dog and other dogs will pick up on that and their behavior will be a lot easier to handle. 

I dont INTENTIONALLY seek out off leash dogs until I have a solid rapport with the dog, but I will not go out at odd hours to avoid that unlikely encounter. 

Of all the methods of dealing with DA out there I think the most overlooked one is remaining calm and in control, not just physically but mentally as well. You can do anything from corrections to +R but if you dont have that control you wont achieve much fast. Unfortunately thats also the hardest thing to learn and train yourself to do, I know I still have a long way to go.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> It *is* a ridiculous way to live, and why most of us are going beyond traditional training and start working with people who *specialize* in fear aggression and are trained in techniques to work with it effectively. But if it were so darn easy, then so many fear aggressive and reactive dogs wouldn't end up euthanized then, would they? Honestly, were I still married, I know my ex would have taken Rey out in the woods and shot her months ago. I'm no novice to the german shepherd, and this third one is fear aggressive/reactive/panicked in a way I've never experienced before. "Correcting the problem" is no quick fix. In fact, traditional training cost my last very experienced trainer a fearful nip and a complete shutdown by the dog. If avoidance protects the animal, other animals and other people, so be it. It's a long journey with these dogs, and lots of time in between where you've been and where you're going.


Never said there was a quick fix...Im just saying in the majority of cases there IS a fix you dont have to live your life avoiding other people and dogs. 
Like I said earlier traditional training / +R training there are times and places for both. I have seen both work effectively and both fail completely it all depends on the person working the dog. Your last trainer misread the dog and got nipped, it happens to everyone. The session should not have ended on that note. Im assuming the training was VERY neg Re enforcement based to promote such a response. If your dog was such a nerve bag, clearly the trainer should allow for that in his or her approach. When mistakes are made and we all make them the session should not end on that note it should have continued until it could end in a posative space. 

Fear is not an easy thing to fix but it CAN be fixed to a reasonable extent and you can live a normal life with your dog.

Alot of dog are PTS for ridiculous reasons that are very fixable unfortunately..


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I disagree. You cannot 'fix' bad genetics. You can take steps to 'manage' a dog that's been poorly bred, but that's it. Not all dogs are 'fear aggressive', either. Some are just plain aggressive. No hackles, no barking, no growling, just a vicious attack out of nowhere with no warning, no pattern, etc. When your dog has actually had a successful bite, they will repeat. Then it comes down to management. I realize that most of these dogs are FA, but for those that are not... and are just completely off their hinges with a weak head and poor decision making the outcome and plans change. Especially when your dog is fine with some dogs and people, and not with others. It's a HUGE liability, and you find your whole world ends up revolving around the extremely dangerous "weapon" that you love with all your heart. Don't make light of people's decision to put a dog down after exhausting every resource and getting the same response. It's nice to be on a soap box, but you can't live other people's lives, and to say that "most" of these dogs could've had a successful outcome is out of your possible realm of knowledge. Want to solve the problem? Push for laws that restrict breeding to worthy dogs. That would solve the problem at the beginning, and help to save the breed as a whole from the downhill path it's on.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Jag said:


> I disagree. You cannot 'fix' bad genetics. You can take steps to 'manage' a dog that's been poorly bred, but that's it. Not all dogs are 'fear aggressive', either. Some are just plain aggressive. No hackles, no barking, no growling, just a vicious attack out of nowhere with no warning, no pattern, etc. When your dog has actually had a successful bite, they will repeat. Then it comes down to management. I realize that most of these dogs are FA, but for those that are not... and are just completely off their hinges with a weak head and poor decision making the outcome and plans change. Especially when your dog is fine with some dogs and people, and not with others. It's a HUGE liability, and you find your whole world ends up revolving around the extremely dangerous "weapon" that you love with all your heart. Don't make light of people's decision to put a dog down after exhausting every resource and getting the same response. It's nice to be on a soap box, but you can't live other people's lives, and to say that "most" of these dogs could've had a successful outcome is out of your possible realm of knowledge. Want to solve the problem? Push for laws that restrict breeding to worthy dogs. That would solve the problem at the beginning, and help to save the breed as a whole from the downhill path it's on.


By "fix" I mean change the behavior to the point were you can lead a normal life as in go for walks, be around people and dogs etc. Im not saying you are guarenteed to turn your reactive dog into the next Lassie.

So you think the majority of dogs PTS are "unfixable"? Who's making light of other people's decision to PTS their dog? I wasnt really talking about individuals more about shelters but in that vein yes I do believe most dogs put down for behaviour issues are "fixable". Its not a joke its a serious and sad thing. 

The last thing Im going to do is push for more restrictive laws..we dont need the government "helping" the dog breeders. Increased regulation is never a good solution in my opinion. Hence BSL.. 
You want to change the direction of the breed? Go talk to the show people and kennel clubs, institute a mandatory temperment test for all show dogs. Disalow any dog from showing / breeding rights that fails the test and ensure the failure is noted on the pedigree data base. Id say that would fix a few of your problems pretty quickly. When you make it about money things happen very quickly.


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Blitzkrieg1....are you serious? Have you ever owned an aggressive/reactive dog or know anything about what makes a dog that way?
> 
> There is only so far you can train a dog....genetics play a huge role in aggression and temperament.
> 
> ...


I feel ya *hug*


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Yes I have owned and worked with reactive dogs its nothing new. The bottom line is every time I go on walks I look for triggers so that the dog in question can go through the experience of dealing with a trigger and discovering that nothing bad happens. As long as it takes as often as it takes until the dog realizes that the world isnt as scary a place is it originally thought. As long as you can manage your own emotions and reactions as a handler you will make progress.
> 
> If my dog is on a leash and Im an able handler I fail to see how anyone is in danger...
> 
> ...


Walking up to triggers wouldn't that be kinda like flooding? Believe me I have tried all the walking up triggers technique, and also put my dog in a controlled group of 20 dogs. It did not help at all.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Jag said:


> I disagree. You cannot 'fix' bad genetics. You can take steps to 'manage' a dog that's been poorly bred, but that's it. Not all dogs are 'fear aggressive', either. Some are just plain aggressive. No hackles, no barking, no growling, just a vicious attack out of nowhere with no warning, no pattern, etc. When your dog has actually had a successful bite, they will repeat. Then it comes down to management. I realize that most of these dogs are FA, but for those that are not... and are just completely off their hinges with a weak head and poor decision making the outcome and plans change. Especially when your dog is fine with some dogs and people, and not with others. It's a HUGE liability, and you find your whole world ends up revolving around the extremely dangerous "weapon" that you love with all your heart. Don't make light of people's decision to put a dog down after exhausting every resource and getting the same response. It's nice to be on a soap box, but you can't live other people's lives, and to say that "most" of these dogs could've had a successful outcome is out of your possible realm of knowledge. Want to solve the problem? Push for laws that restrict breeding to worthy dogs. That would solve the problem at the beginning, and help to save the breed as a whole from the downhill path it's on.


Agreed until we got to the "need another law" part. I think we need more laws like we need a hole in our heads. We can't even keep up with the ones we have. Education and promotion of good breeding I agree to. However, my FA dog, according to her papers (if she the offspring of the two dogs listed), should be stable. She's socially inept and I've had to teach her things she should have learned as a pup. I mean, sheesh, she barked at my floor vents blowing air because they were new to her. She had never ridden in a car without a crate. I had to teach her how to play.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

prockerb said:


> Walking up to triggers wouldn't that be kinda like flooding? Believe me I have tried all the walking up triggers technique, and also put my dog in a controlled group of 20 dogs. It did not help at all.


Yep, usually makes it worse with a true FA or reactive dog. They get panicked to the "point of no return" where you can't reach them until you remove the trigger. May work for dogs going through a growth phase, but it's exactly what we're told to NOT DO with a truly reactive dog, at least not until other groundwork is established. We've all tried it at first, and we all know what happens.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I understand that I just think its sad so many people choose to live that way with their dogs.
> 
> To your second question, with a DA dog the first stages of my approach involve encountering other dogs as in seeing them / passing them at a distance while behaving on a leash, then passing closer and closer until we are at the point were we are a few feet away and relaxing.
> This involves seeking out other dogs being walked, dogs behind fences, people out and about etc. The busier the better. Im looking for triggers Im constantly challenging the dog, negative behaviors are corrected, posative rewarded. In the process the dog not only is exposed to triggers which if handled right become less exciting/scary..but also builds trust in me the handler when it comes to dealing with his "triggers".
> ...


What you are describing is under optimal conditions. A FA dog's threshold can change daily, even something as innocent as a breeze blowing can affect it. Through training, for the handler and dog, and in spite of the handling capability, there comes a point you have to recognize the safest alternative is to remove your dog instead of pushing past the threshold. Otherwise you are risking shutdown and losing huge amounts of ground gained. I am definitely not saying remove the dog in an excited way, fearful way, but calmly and matter of fact. 

I've learned through trial and error, I prefer ending the day in the same spot rather then beginning the next day having to begin again at a goal that had already been reached.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks for sharing -#1 I definitely get the "embracing" sunrises part, sometimes the senior citizens who are up at 4am ruin it for me.

#2 I also like the ninja part. Our neighbors must think we are crazy sometimes. literally running out of our condo, across the street, then between buildings and alley ways. There are certain times of the day when certain people or dogs are out that my daughter simply will not go out with our dog - it's like an obstacle course.

I'll have to try #10 -whipped cream, can't go wrong with that.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think there are different degrees of FA, and some can be managed, some can be managed by a really astute owner, and some can't be managed without the liability to society being greater than the owners resources.
People really should be put out about how many breeders(mostly reputable), are breeding these spooks (whether it is fear or aggression). The other thing is many owners are creating aggression in the breed by treating them like people (children), and applying little or no discipline in the dogs early foundation. Whether people like it or not these dogs were created to have the potential to be war or police dogs. So they have strong traits in character that come with the breed. Police and war personnel need training, as do police and war type dogs. If not, they will take over, or if you try to manipulate the genetics of this breed to make it golden like you will have an inordinate amount of spooks.....and spooks are often aggressive(fear).
So the bottom line is reputable breeders have to breed for nerve over show or sport, and perspective owners have to treat them like athletic children that need to be active and structured.jmo


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Twyla said:


> What you are describing is under optimal conditions. A FA dog's threshold can change daily, even something as innocent as a breeze blowing can affect it. Through training, for the handler and dog, and in spite of the handling capability, there comes a point you have to recognize the safest alternative is to remove your dog instead of pushing past the threshold. Otherwise you are risking shutdown and losing huge amounts of ground gained. I am definitely not saying remove the dog in an excited way, fearful way, but calmly and matter of fact.
> 
> I've learned through trial and error, I prefer ending the day in the same spot rather then beginning the next day having to begin again at a goal that had already been reached.


Yep so true a breeze can seriously make my dog go over threshold. Sometimes I need to control my movements to make shure they are not too rapid so he doesn't start to become aroused. I know it sounds crazy, but if I walk too fast he becomes jumpy. So every day is diffrent. Oh I also make shure to allways sit down two or three times durring a walk so he can "calm down", and I make shure to use constantly the "Go Sniff" command. I have notice sniffing keeps him underthreshold. 

Thinking about it any of you guys ever notice your dog getting aroused after drinking water durring the walk? Where I live we have lots of water fountains where any one can use (also dogs), and normally we do stop to have a drink (I make shure he is sit and calm before I let release him to drink).


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I
> People really should be put out about how many breeders(mostly reputable), are breeding these spooks (whether it is fear or aggression). The other thing is many owners are creating aggression in the breed by treating them like people (children), and applying little or no discipline in the dogs early foundation. Whether people like it or not these dogs were created to have the potential to be war or police dogs. So they have strong traits in character that come with the breed. Police and war personnel need training, as do police and war type dogs. If not, they will take over, or if you try to manipulate the genetics of this breed to make it golden like you will have an inordinate amount of spooks.....and spooks are often aggressive(fear).
> So the bottom line is reputable breeders have to breed for nerve over show or sport, and perspective owners have to treat them like athletic children that need to be active and structured.jmo


:thumbup: Couldn't agree more. I also think that while positive only training can work on some dogs but many GSD's need some aversives when they reach adolescense. Not correcting bad behavior is as abusive as over correcting. ( for human teens as well as canine) The humane use of aversives can give the dog and owner freedom to enjoy life.

At nine months I was told to never use any real correction on Benny, to just ignore bad behavior, because if not rewarded it would stop! At 11 months same trainer asked us to leave class and said I had a hair trigger aggressive dog that I always needed to keep under threshold! I sensed this was wrong and thankfully found a trainer who told me I had a confident teenager who was testing the limits and needed some clear boundaries and corrections. At three years old I now have a well behaved ( although at times pushy) dog I can take almost everywhere, although he does not back down from another dogs challenge or the occasional perceived threats easily. He is vigilant, always checking out the surroundings, and that is how a GSD should be.
The freedom and exposure the correction have given him have given him the experience to make good decisions
Yesterday we were walking on the side walk toward home and about 100 yards ahead was a father walking three young children with back packs to school. Suddenly the three kids, who must have forgotten something at home turned back and ran straight at Benny, looking like they were charging him. I stepped aside so we would not be run over, but Benny never even tensed, because he knows kid behavior. The father scolded the kids and said "You are lucky that is a nice dog!" 

If that had been the father running at us he would have reacted, and I would have expected that.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Debbieg said:


> :thumbup: Couldn't agree more... Not correcting bad behavior is as abusive as over correcting.


Yes. And when you correct the little things, the dog doesn't even get a chance to test you with the real big things, because he knows there are rules, limits, expectations, demands. A GSD is such a wonderful companion but there's alot of groundwork that goes into him/her.

I wondered in another thread how much fear we're actually projecting onto our dogs, which might influence their reactivity. I'm also wondering now how many GSDs didn't have the structure and exercise they needed to keep them stable while they were developing, as cliffson1 indicates. 

Please don't take that last paragraph as a bash, anyone! But if you do notice that the above may have affected your dog in his/her current state, it would be very helpful to others in the same boat if you chimed in.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

This has certainly been interesting. Quite frankly I am tried of being a ninja! Just what kind of corrections does a 15 month GSD need???? Stella is hard to read around other dogs. Even the OB trainer said she had trouble reading Stella when she is looking at other dogs.....is she just looking or is she honing in on a target!!!??? Of course she said to err on the side of caution and anyhow, staring is impolite 
I am considering working with a different trainer specifically for Stella's dog reactivity problem. It would mean dropping her off for 3 or 4 day sessions with just the trainer and then 6 or so sessions with me and other dogs. So far any training has always included me and I am a bit hesitant leaving my baby girl with a trainer. He said he has to evaluate her before he knows just what kind of a correction she needs.....so just wondering what others thought are appropriate ones to use......
And Blitzkrieg....I know Stella senses all of my feelings when I am walking her. I do try to keep them in check but there seem to be times when even when I think I am feeling like Cesar Milan....she goes Cujo. There is definitely a point of no return with her. I could be waving a filet mignon in front of her and she would not care!!!


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

I would not want to leave my dog with a trainer for the first several sessions. I would expect the trainer to watch you and the dog together in every day situations, around other dogs and be able go from there.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

katdog5911 said:


> I am considering working with a different trainer specifically for Stella's dog reactivity problem. It would mean dropping her off for 3 or 4 day sessions with just the trainer and then 6 or so sessions with me and other dogs. So far any training has always included me and I am a bit hesitant leaving my baby girl with a trainer. He said he has to evaluate her before he knows just what kind of a correction she needs.....so just wondering what others thought are appropriate ones to use......


I would be wondering what kind of corrections the trainer is using if I wasn't there.....

The trainer we go to hasn't handled Woolf the first time. She'll scratch and pet, toss a treat etc but as far as training, it's Woolf and me. She doesn't mince words if I mess up, its direct and to the point.

If its a technique I'm just not grasping for whatever reason, I'll put Woolf away and she'll bring one of her dogs out to demonstrate.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Debbieg said:


> I also think that while positive only training can work on some dogs but many GSD's need some aversives when they reach adolescense.


I agree with this. I was also told never to correct a FA dog, but in some instances I felt it was necessary and it has helped. I think the manner in which it's done is important. I correct immediately, praise for complying then quickly redirect her and move on. I had to because my FA dog was just wild (like ripping curtains off the wall, ripping couch skirt off to get her Kong under the couch, etc.). She knows a loud "awt!" means to stop whatever obnoxious thing she's doing. When she's really obnoxious, "bad dog" said in a low voice causes her to look downright ashamed. I even flicked her nose or lightly popped a leash end on her nose with the "awt" noise when she would bite me too hard playing until she learned "soft" bites (at 18 months, when I first got her, she really did not know the difference and I had to teach her). All of these have worked for me. None are harsh, and she takes gentle but firm correction well. In fact, I think she respects me for it.


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

katdog5911 said:


> This has certainly been interesting. Quite frankly I am tried of being a ninja! Just what kind of corrections does a 15 month GSD need???? Stella is hard to read around other dogs. Even the OB trainer said she had trouble reading Stella when she is looking at other dogs.....is she just looking or is she honing in on a target!!!??? Of course she said to err on the side of caution and anyhow, staring is impolite
> I am considering working with a different trainer specifically for Stella's dog reactivity problem. It would mean dropping her off for 3 or 4 day sessions with just the trainer and then 6 or so sessions with me and other dogs. So far any training has always included me and I am a bit hesitant leaving my baby girl with a trainer. He said he has to evaluate her before he knows just what kind of a correction she needs.....so just wondering what others thought are appropriate ones to use......
> And Blitzkrieg....I know Stella senses all of my feelings when I am walking her. I do try to keep them in check but there seem to be times when even when I think I am feeling like Cesar Milan....she goes Cujo. There is definitely a point of no return with her. I could be waving a filet mignon in front of her and she would not care!!!


I wouldn't trust a trainer that trains without you around. I think trainers need to train owners what to do. A dog can be one way with one person and another way with another. 

Anyways I know a trainer that corrects a dog's reactivity, but the moment the owner ("weaker person") has the leash again there the reactivity comes out . I thought I heard someone saying that a dog can get used to the strength of the correction where sometimes you need to start using more and more force to _suppress the behavior everytime. _

What do you guys think? Before anyone responds I am not here to debate what methods are better...


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

prockerb said:


> I wouldn't trust a trainer that trains without you around. I think trainers need to train owners what to do. A dog can be one way with one person and another way with another.
> 
> Anyways I know a trainer that corrects a dog's reactivity, but the moment the owner ("weaker person") has the leash again there the reactivity comes out .
> 
> ...


Hopefully the corrections issued would be appropriate for the transgression and wouldn't be the same correction for everything.


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

I once seen this extremely stressed out fear aggressive dog lunging at other dogs in a over threshold situation. The owner was tough, back straight, not saying a word, calm, and still that dog kept on barking. Seriously that dog was having a panic attack. Oh yeah the dog was also "alpha rolled" a couple of times by the trainer. That didn't work at all. It was a ugly situation. But when it comes to correction strength.. I did noticed that they would correct more or less for what the dog was doing. If the dog wasn't paying attention "light" correction, if the dog was going towards another dog "stronger" correction.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Oh the joys of owning a dog reactive dog.  I used to avoid other dogs too, while not letting my dog to even notice anything. We've tried positive methods before but it didn't work out, coz what we knew was not enough (and not coz positive methods doesn't work) and the situation was already very bad when we started to do something about it (threshold easily reached even when dog is so far far away). Then we've decided to go to a trainer, but before that we've avoided dogs like no tomorrow! People would look at us with that judgmental look whenever our dog reacts towards their dogs, since their own little babies barking at us like crazy is fine but our BSD mix is big so he's scary and bad. And we looked ridiculous with all the treats and such.

We ended up using a prong for corrections and using treats and praise at the same time, while letting our dog approach other dogs gradually and eventually he met a few friends and reacted much less. But he still reacts with growls and so on, if he is unsure if a certain dog is threat. He does better with females thought.

Just some advice on corrections, based on my own experience - don't over correct or expect that a dog has to sit right next to another dog without a reaction! A dog is reactive coz he is unsure and stressed with other dogs that he would react by choosing fight or flight response. By using corrections, you're telling a dog to not to react, but then you have to allow gradual approaches too or else it is too stressful and dog will get worse. Also, you need positive interactions with other calm dogs in order to make a dog really feel secure and that he has nothing to be afraid of. Just telling a dog to repress might not solve the issue.

Our dog did get more reactive due to prong corrections before (well, we are just average owners learning how to use this kind of tools for the first time), but I've noticed that if we slow down and don't over expect our dogs to behave, and often tell our dog what to do instead, it helps him to react less and less. For example, my dog can growl when crossing paths with another dog. Instead of just correcting, I'd tell him "go go go" and it works better. Also, we can allow our dog to look at the other dog's direction and sniff to the other dog's direction. If we over correct and demand total attention, he gets too stressed and reacts even more.

Sometimes, it's not that a dog gets used to the corrections, it's us not being understanding and over correcting, which stresses our dog too much for him to handle.


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