# Can two sables produce Black and Tan?



## Clausgsd2 (Mar 19, 2020)

Can two sables produce Black and Tan puppies or only all sables, blacks, and maybe bi colors?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Yes, if one parent is Sable/BT and the other is either Sable/BT or Sable/Black, you could get black & tan puppies.


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## Clausgsd2 (Mar 19, 2020)

WIBackpacker said:


> Yes, if one parent is Sable/BT and the other is either Sable/BT or Sable/Black, you could get black & tan puppies.


What do you mean sable/BT? Like if the sable carries for Black and Tan?


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Never mind. Yeah, I realized my mistake and deleted that post. Thanks for the clarification.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

GSDs carry two color genes. Sable is dominant to black & tan, black & tan is dominant to (recessive) solid black. 

If one parent is Sable carrying Black and Tan, the dog appears sable but will pass on EITHER a sable gene or a black & tan gene to each puppy.

Any puppy carrying one sable gene will appear sable. But in the above example, resulting puppies could be any combination of sable or black and tan. Statistically you're likely to get more sable puppies, but each puppy is an independent roll of the dice.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A sable can carry the BT gene and if the other parent carries this too, then there is a good chance you will see BT in a litter.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Pawsed said:


> I'm confused. I thought that sable was always dominant. So 2 sables would only produce sables. Is that not correct?


Only if one or both of the parents are sable/sable. Then no other color is possible.


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## Clausgsd2 (Mar 19, 2020)

WIBackpacker said:


> Only if one or both of the parents are sable/sable. Then no other color is possible.


So if mom was full sable and black dogs through her line but bred to a sable that had a b/t dam could this produce b/t puppies?


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## Clausgsd2 (Mar 19, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> A sable can carry the BT gene and if the other parent carries this too, then there is a good chance you will see BT in a litter.


So if mom was full sable and black dogs through her line but bred to a sable that had a b/t dam could this produce b/t puppies?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Clausgsd2 said:


> So if mom was full sable and black dogs through her line but bred to a sable that had a b/t dam could this produce b/t puppies?


Yes


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

"Full Sable" doesn't tell you what the dam is, genetically. A Sable carrying black & tan and a Sable carrying black both appear to be a sable. 

But in your example, yes, it's possible, if the dam & sire both carry for other colors. If either the dam or the sire were homozygous sable (sable/sable), all the puppies would be sable.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The colors in order of dominance for German shepherds are sable, Black and Tan, bicolor, and black. Each dog has two of these genes. The most dominant one will show. This article should answer all your questions.








German Shepherd Color Genetics


"The foundation color is that of wolf like, darker mistiness of a yellow background from which all other colors from yellowish or greyish up to uniform black have developed. White is only admissible...



vonhausulv.weebly.com


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

doesn’t matter what’s “through her line” - what color are her parents?

i’ve posted this link in one of your previous threads - it’s very simple to understand if you know what’s behind each dog....

GSD Color Genetics


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Color Genetics in German Shepherds



Yes.
Each parent contributes a color gene. A sable who carries black/tan is AW/AS. 

For instance, my male is sable who carries black. AW/A. And my female is a black/tan that carries black. AS/A

My male can pass on a sable gene or a black gene. He's pretty simple because he has the most dominant color gene and the least dominant color gene. If he passes on sable then the puppy will be sable because sable is dominant over any other color. He can pass on the black gene BUT the puppy wiill only be black if the dam passes on the black gene as well because that is the least dominant gene. If the dam passes on any other color except black, that puppy will be that other color.

My female can pass on black/tan or black. Color of puppy would depend on what the male is.


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## Clausgsd2 (Mar 19, 2020)

Fodder said:


> doesn’t matter what’s “through her line” - what color are her parents?
> 
> i’ve posted this link in one of your previous threads - it’s very simple to understand if you know what’s behind each dog....
> 
> GSD Color Genetics


Through her lines as in all the dogs coat colors in her lines are black and sable... her mom was black and dad was sable. Sires mom was Black and Tan and his dad was sable.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

To simplify....

all carry 2 color genes - one from each parent - if a sable has 2 sable genes, it is homozygous, if it has 1 sable (visible) and 1 other (recessive) it is heterozygous.

Sable is dominant.  Sable dogs can carry black or B/T as a recessive. When a heterogygous sable is bred to a heterozygous sable, you will have sable pups and a pup or two who picks up the recessive on both sides. The sables can be **** or heterozygous. My littermates Komet and Kira are from a homzygous sable and a sable/black recessive. Therefore all pups in this litter were sable. Komet got 2 sable genes, so no matter what he is bred to, the pups will all be sable. Kira got a black recessive, - her dam was sable, but carried black because her sire, Xito was black...some of her pups carry black recessive and some do not. Kira has had both sable and black pups when bred to sable dogs who carry a black recessive. 

The recessive black gene can seemingly hide for generations....at this time, there is a resurgence of black WGSL dogs. A black showline dog from Margeman kennel in Russia has produced blacks and some progeny have been imported to the US. These black showline dogs are being bred to dogs who are black and tan for 8-10 generations, yet there are pure blacks being produced and shown and sold here in the US.

Lee


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

wolfstraum said:


> To simplify....
> 
> all carry 2 color genes - one from each parent - if a sable has 2 sable genes, it is homozygous, if it has 1 sable (visible) and 1 other (recessive) it is heterozygous.
> 
> ...


Where do you think that black came from?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bearshandler said:


> Where do you think that black came from?


The Margman dogs are believed to dominant black. I wish my friend would test her male so it's proven  But I also wonder if another breed would pop up in those tests. You can follow the pedigree back to the early 80s and then it seems the information ends.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> The Margman dogs are believed to dominant black. I wish my friend would test her male so it's proven  But I also wonder if another breed would pop up in those tests. You can follow the pedigree back to the early 80s and then it seems the information ends.


That’s something I find interesting. I’m pretty sure it’s a dominant black. I’ve seen litters here that come down from those dogs. They are mixed with some German lines I know don’t carry black, but half the litter comes out black anyway. I looked at a puppy from one of these dogs, but I decided it wasn’t what I wanted. I want to know what dna tests say about these dogs too.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bearshandler said:


> That’s something I find interesting. I’m pretty sure it’s a dominant black. I’ve seen litters here that come down from those dogs. They are mixed with some German lines I know don’t carry black, but half the litter comes out black anyway. I looked at a puppy from one of these dogs, but I decided it wasn’t what I wanted. I want to know what dna tests say about these dogs too.


I would love to see an Embark panel on one of these dogs. hmmm....maybe I can talk my friend who bought a black puppy from the first friend into doing it.  I'd even pay for it!! Off to facebook messenger....lol


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> I would love to see an Embark panel on one of these dogs. hmmm....maybe I can talk my friend who bought a black puppy from the first friend into doing it.  I'd even pay for it!! Off to facebook messenger....lol


You'd find out the color genes. But after 3 generations they come back as purebred, so even if they were mixed to get dominant black the DNA test wouldn’t tell you that.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Kazel said:


> You'd find out the color genes. But after 3 generations they come back as purebred, so even if they were mixed to get dominant black the DNA test wouldn’t tell you that.


or there’d be a small % of what embark calls “supermutt”


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I really doubt it would show. There are generations and generations of dogs back to the early 80s with pictures of black dogs and then the pedigree goes silent. But whether it's a true dominant black or recessive would be on the test and that would lay to rest the conjecture that the recessive gene sat hidden for decades in every clearly WGSL black/tan lines only to pop up when bred with the margman line. I could buy that if it were a single breeding that a black popped up but when you breed a black dog to females whose lines are not similar and you always get black puppies....if it walks like a duck....


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