# Liver sable/silver black pairing



## Kalvin/Autmn

At the risk of negative reaction, I am wondering if anyone has seen the out come of this pairing.


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## Konotashi

What do you mean by silver black? 

I think that if you pair a blue with a liver, you get fawns. Or maybe it's a liver carrier with a blue carrier where you get some fawns....


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## Kalvin/Autmn

Sorry, he is silver and black. I wonder if fawns would still result because both are dilutions.


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## Konotashi

Black/silver isn't considered a dilute, it's simply faded red (if I'm correct). Dilutes are the blues and livers. 

Do you plan on breeding them?


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## Kalvin/Autmn

You are right, wrong wording,the tan is faded. I just have seen that they tend to throw white and silver/blacks. And yes, I have. I know the back lash, but they are great dogs and many people want one. There will be homes, guaranteed.


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## Myamom

What titles do they have? what health testing? and are you prepared to take back their offspring...at any time in their life...if their home can no longer keep them?


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## Konotashi

Have they have (at least) their hips tested? Any show titles, whether it be agility, OB, etc.?


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## Kalvin/Autmn

Sorry if that sounded rude. You are right. They most likely will be unusual given the colorings. Her dad was white and he is identical to his father. I do plan to have them both fixed.


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## Kalvin/Autmn

No, again, it was a personal decision. Yes I would take them back. All are going to friends and family, keeping contact if possible to all owners.


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## APBTLove

Maybe you should point all of the people saying "Gee, I want a nice GSD like them" to shelters, where GSD puppies are being killed.

What health testing has been done to prove they are at least physically healthy?

Are you going to require the puppies be spayed/neutered?


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## Kalvin/Autmn

Points well taken. Thank you. Sorry I mentioned it.


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## Myamom

The shelters are overflowing with great GSD's....many many that won't be saved.....

and I think all of us here have great GSD's...doesn't mean we should breed them.


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## Konotashi

You shouldn't be sorry; but there are so many GSDs that need homes as it is. There's no need to contribute to the overpopulation problem. :/


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## Kalvin/Autmn

Thank you, again. I have 5 dogs, all but the two are fixed. I always fix every animal. I couldn't agree more.


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## APBTLove

There is nothing wrong with breeding two dogs who's family has good health and temperament, conformation, plus working ability (meaning they are able to actually work in some way). If you were to title your dogs and get their health testing done to at least make sure there's less of a chance of bringing puppies who will suffer from bad hips or hearts or something in to the world.



Kalvin/Autmn said:


> Thank you, again. I have 5 dogs, all but the two are fixed. I always fix every animal. I couldn't agree more.


Then _why_ breed them, if you understand?  I work so hard to help dogs in shelters, dogs with amazing temperaments... And I fail more than I succeed, and they die. Just watch this, just please do and if it doesn't change your feelings at all so be it, but those are all real dogs in this video, many I have worked on saving.. Many dead.


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## Kalvin/Autmn

Guilt accepted.


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## APBTLove

Guilt won't save dogs. I am guilty as can be for accepting a dog from a back yard breeder. It didn't undo what I did.


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## Kalvin/Autmn

We seem to be on two threads right now. I understand your point. I can't say much more about breeaing, I will have them fixed.
Thanks for the tip on Kalvin/beagle issue. As I said, he lives with my mom now and gets plenty of space from Kalvin. She brings him over so he can sniff and patrol for lizards and such...so he can be a beagle. He adores my dane/aussie.


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## Zoeys mom

That video made me cry. To see those animals piled in trashcans and gassed to die on top of one another- That was definitely eye opening


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## Jessiewessie99

Take everything the others have said. Get your dogs fixed, many dogs are put to sleep each year.


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## Chicagocanine

Konotashi said:


> I think that if you pair a blue with a liver, you get fawns. Or maybe it's a liver carrier with a blue carrier where you get some fawns....


Are there actually fawn German Shepherds? 
Is that different from the dogs who are black/tan but with no saddle (mostly tan with just a black muzzle)? I always thought those were just black/tan dogs with a low amount of black?


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## Konotashi

Yeah, there's fawns. I've actually seen one for adoption here in AZ, though I'm not sure if she was PB.

They're the cream with just the mask. 

Here's a pic of one.


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## Andaka

You can also get a double dilute (both liver and blue) which looks very much like a Weimeraner (sp?) in color.


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## JKlatsky

I think that technically the "fawn" in GSDs is actually genetically a sable with little to no black pigmentation. Not actually a solid colored fawn like you would see in say Mastiffs or Greyhounds.

Check out these "solid" red and cream dogs. http://www.kerstoneshepherds.net/colors/colors1.htm

The only true genetically solid color is GSDs is black and it's dilute versions of solid liver and blue.


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## Kalvin/Autmn

I should clarify the the silver is actually silver/black.


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## Kalvin/Autmn

Click on my viewing for pics. Does she look liver? Her toe nails, pads, and lips are drown.


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## ChristenHolden

Kalvin I don't see any pics. Or photo albums.


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## Kalvin/Autmn

I am new at this as of yesterday. I can click on Kalvin/Autmn and over to the right side are the list of friends, etc. scroll down a bit and look for album?


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## Chicagocanine

JKlatsky said:


> I think that technically the "fawn" in GSDs is actually genetically a sable with little to no black pigmentation. Not actually a solid colored fawn like you would see in say Mastiffs or Greyhounds.


That is what I thought. But that wouldn't come of a dilute/dilute breeding, right?


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## JKlatsky

Chicagocanine said:


> That is what I thought. But that wouldn't come of a dilute/dilute breeding, right?


It could. The thread says it's a liver sable. If the pup is sable, and the parents have faint pigmentation you could get a pup that inherits that. I think the whole dilute thing operates beyond the color genetics in the same way a White masking gene works. 

A Sable dog could- regardless of the dilute gene which alters the hue of the black in the dog- show poor coverage of pigment (be it black, blue, or brown) and look like a "solid" color dog. And the dog could be red or cream or white depending on the intensity of the tan pigment. I think where you would see the dilute show would be in the mask. The black of the mask would show black if the dog was not dilute, blue or liver if it did show a dilute gene. 

I would consider it possible for a poorly pigmented liver sable to be paired with a poorly pigmented black and silver to create another poorly pigmented sable pup...who would possibly be a dilute if the black and silver dog carried it. However, if the liver sable shows a good coverage of the liver and the black and silver shows a strong blanket or saddle...I wouldn't expect the pups to shows such low coverage as a "fawn".


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## Kalvin/Autmn

Can you access my pis and see what you think? People seem to be having a hard time getting to them. Look under photo gallery or click Kalvin/Autmn, go to view profile and on right is a photo album. I just started yesterday and may be wrong in the directions, don't know.


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## Kalvin/Autmn

pics. oops!


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## ChristenHolden

Is your album privet? It should be right below your stats. But I'm not finding it


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## Kalvin/Autmn

Thank you! maybe now?


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## cagirl

APBTLove said:


> There is nothing wrong with breeding two dogs who's family has good health and temperament, conformation, plus working ability (meaning they are able to actually work in some way). If you were to title your dogs and get their health testing done to at least make sure there's less of a chance of bringing puppies who will suffer from bad hips or hearts or something in to the world.
> 
> 
> 
> Then _why_ breed them, if you understand?  I work so hard to help dogs in shelters, dogs with amazing temperaments... And I fail more than I succeed, and they die. Just watch this, just please do and if it doesn't change your feelings at all so be it, but those are all real dogs in this video, many I have worked on saving.. Many dead.
> YouTube - German Shepherds and Rescuing.


Honestly many people are being forced to buy from BYBers because the adoption process on some of these rescues is silly, and many people wont pay the money for a rescue if they can get a puppy from a BYBer for the same price.


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## VaBeachFamily

The posted link has awesome info about colors and markings and such.. but geeez those people will breed ANY dog that is called a German Shepherd... not somewhere I would EVER buy from


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## Jessiewessie99

Konotashi said:


> Yeah, there's fawns. I've actually seen one for adoption here in AZ, though I'm not sure if she was PB.
> 
> They're the cream with just the mask.
> 
> Here's a pic of one.


There was an 8 year old GSD named Abe at my shelter who had that same coloring.


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## Konotashi

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you get fawns when you breed either a liver carrier to a blue carrier, or a blue to a liver. But I believe there are true fawns, vs. sables with very few black guard hairs.

And I don't believe I've ever heard of a double dilute...? Isn't a dilute just a dilution of the black only? So wouldn't that make it impossible to make it blue AND liver...?


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## Konotashi

JKlatsky said:


> I think that technically the "fawn" in GSDs is actually genetically a sable with little to no black pigmentation. Not actually a solid colored fawn like you would see in say Mastiffs or Greyhounds.
> 
> Check out these "solid" red and cream dogs. Kerstone Shepherds - GSD Colors, page 1
> 
> The only true genetically solid color is GSDs is black and it's dilute versions of solid liver and blue.


I'll be honest, the 'red' in that doesn't look pure GSD. Maybe mal mix? But that's just me. :x

And the cream does have black guard hairs. (< Is that the right term?) On the second page it has the same picture and says that she's a cream sable. 

*Drools over the livers*

Dran, brrok teh kkeybrd. xD


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## chocolat

cagirl said:


> Honestly many people are being forced to buy from BYBers because the adoption process on some of these rescues is silly, and many people wont pay the money for a rescue if they can get a puppy from a BYBer for the same price.


you are very much correct.
The other huge problem is many people want puppies, and with a breed like a shepherd I dont always blame them. The adult shepherds die in shelters not because someone bred a litter if liver puppies, but because people want puppies and they dont want to worry that a rescued adult guarding breed like a shepherd is going to eat their kids the first week home from the shelter.
Those are simply facts. Dogs die not because there arent enough homes, but because people want what they want(for good or bad reasons) . Not all people want to jump thru the rescue hoops and so many rescues have such rules and regs that an average family cant even pass to adopt.
Not everyone can afford or wants to afford spending $1500 for a good quality shepherd. They just want a puppy that resembles the breed they like, at a reasonable price with a reasonable expectation of changing hands(buying)
If you are going to breed your dogs, at least do some basic health testing so you arent adding to problems, but are providing a basically healthy puppy of a recognizable breed for a reasonable price to the pet owner.
I am glad you asked your color questions, it shows you want to learn and that is always a good thing no matter which road you choose


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## Dainerra

dogs die in shelters because of breeders who don't care what happens to the pups as long as the check clears. Good breeders (and rescues/shelters) screen homes and match the dog with the owner. If something happens and it doesn't work out, sometimes even years later, the breeder/rescue will take the dog back. 

People go to BYB because they want it NOW. They don't want to wait for a dog that is a match for them. Shelters and rescues have GSD puppies a LOT. It's not uncommon for shelters to gas entire litters (of any breed) because no one wants them. Usually, it's because someone bred their dogs -all the neighbors/friends wanted a pup, but when the time came to take one home all the excuses started. Now our "breeder" is left with a bunch of pups they don't want to feed. Our wal-mart has dozens of litters of GSDs every year - people selling them out of the back of their truck for any $$. I've seen them for $50 even. Any pups not sold get dumped off at the shelter.
At the prices that BYBs charge, they aren't doing even the most basic of health tests. 99.9% of them couldn't even tell you what those tests might be. "Oh, my vet said they are very healthy" or, my personal fave - "Of course they're healthy! I've never had to take them to the vet since they had their puppy shots" 

There are very good breeders, doing all the necessary tests and working with their dogs who charge less than $1500 a pup. They are a bit harder to find, though, because all that work IS expensive. But, they aren't BYBs and most people will STILL pass them by because they aren't able to just walk up with some $$ and walk out with any pup they want.


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## chocolat

Dainerra said:


> dogs die in shelters because of breeders who don't care what happens to the pups as long as the check clears.* Good breeders (and rescues/shelters) screen homes and match the dog with the owner.* If something happens and it doesn't work out, sometimes even years later, the breeder/rescue will take the dog back.
> 
> *People go to BYB because they want it NOW*. They don't want to wait for a dog that is a match for them. Shelters and rescues have GSD puppies a LOT. It's not uncommon for shelters to gas entire litters (of any breed) because no one wants them. Usually, it's because someone bred their dogs -all the neighbors/friends wanted a pup, but when the time came to take one home all the excuses started. Now our "breeder" is left with a bunch of pups they don't want to feed. Our wal-mart has dozens of litters of GSDs every year - people selling them out of the back of their truck for any $$. I've seen them for $50 even. Any pups not sold get dumped off at the shelter.
> At the prices that BYBs charge, they aren't doing even the most basic of health tests. 99.9% of them couldn't even tell you what those tests might be. "Oh, my vet said they are very healthy" or, my personal fave - "Of course they're healthy! I've never had to take them to the vet since they had their puppy shots"
> 
> There are very good breeders, doing all the necessary tests and working with their dogs who charge less than $1500 a pup. They are a bit harder to find, though, because all that work IS expensive. But, they aren't BYBs and most people will STILL pass them by because they aren't able to just walk up with some $$ and walk out with any pup they want.


 
you have described exactly why cheap fast breeders exist because breeders and rescues who make owners jump all those hoops are going to find many owners who dont want to put up with it.
Rather than playing judge and jury whethere a pet owner is a suitable home worthy of the dog in your possession our better bet is to help guide the potential pet owner..shepherd not the right breed for them, then show them which one is. 
They WILL get a dog, just because you say 'no" to them doesnt mean they simply decide to not get a dog. Better to put your spayed/neutered rescue with them and have them not have "oops" litters then turn them down and have them get a puppy from the guy down the street.
Or put your puppy with them and help teach , guide and be there for the dog if it does fail.


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## Myamom

Jump through hoops? put up with it? I belong to three GSD rescues and assist many others across the country. NONE have requirements that are unreasonable. (yes..there are rescues out there that have stricter requirements than others.. like a fence, no children, etc...but that's their perogative and you can always find another rescue). Rescues require you make your GSD a loved member of your family. They make sure that they don't end up chained to a tree, etc. They match you with the appropriate dog...not the cat killer when you own three cats. They make sure you will take care of it's medical needs. Hardly unreasonable requests. They stand by their placements and offer lifetime assistance. In the end...if necessary...they take back their dogs. If a group of volunteers who bare no responsibility for that dog being born or abandoned can do that...I expect no less from a breeder. Those pb's in shelters were puppies once...someone bred them...if those that bred them actually cared...and stood behind them when they were no longer wanted....think of how many less dogs in shelters there would be. 
If someone can not be approved by any rescue or reputable breeder...they really need to take a good hard look at their situation. And no...it is not better to place a dog in a less than satisfactory home so they won't have an oops litter, etc. My first priority is for that dog that I pulled, nurtured, nursed and loved...they have my promise that they will never end up in a bad position again. We aren't everyone's keepers...we are responsible to that one dog we saved. It's not my responsibility to stop someone unsatisfactory from getting a dog elsewhere...I can't control that. I can control the fate of the dog I rescued and ensure it gets a great home. That is my only responsibility.


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## Dainerra

chocolat said:


> Rather than playing judge and jury whethere a pet owner is a suitable home worthy of the dog in your possession our better bet is to help guide the potential pet owner..shepherd not the right breed for them, then show them which one is.
> They WILL get a dog, just because you say 'no" to them doesnt mean they simply decide to not get a dog. Better to put your spayed/neutered rescue with them and have them not have "oops" litters then turn them down and have them get a puppy from the guy down the street.
> Or put your puppy with them and help teach , guide and be there for the dog if it does fail.


yes, but why should they allow themselves to be "guided" to another breed when there are so many BYBs? why should they allow input from the breeder for the entire time they own the dog? People who go to BYBs don't want limited registrations, to return the dog to the breeder if they can't keep it. They want a "no strings attached" purchase. To many of them, they look at getting a puppy like buying a car. When they hand over the check, they expect to do whatever they want with the dog. Chain it in the yard, feed it table scraps and Ol' Roy, dump it at the shelter if it becomes a pest. 

a lot of the people who go to BYBs don't want a spayed/neutered dog because "who are they to tell me I can't have a litter of puppies to sell??"

why should a breeder who loves their dogs place one with someone who is unwilling to even fill out the application and "jump through hoops"? I've talked with many breeders and rescues, the requirements aren't outlandish. But, many people see them that way. After all, it's just a dog. I have money, give one to me. All the breeders I have met will help a new owner who is willing to learn. But, why bother learning when there is always someone out there who will sell you a puppy with no strings attached.


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