# When Do You Spay/Neuter or Do You Not Spay/Neuter?



## LaRen616

When do you like to spay/neuter or do you believe in keeping your dog(s) intact?

You can choose multiple answers


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## LaRen616

I had Sinister neutered when he was 15 months old but I will wait closer to 2 years for my next male.

I plan on spaying Malice between 15-18 months of age.


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## PaddyD

First 2 were spayed at 5 months, 3rd was spayed at 6 months. 2 answers


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## LaRen616

Sorry I forgot to mention, this thread is when do your PREFER having your dog spayed/neutered, not when did you have your dog spayed/neutered.

Sorry I didn't add that in! My apologies!


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## fuzzybunny

I neutered Jazz at 15 months of age. I would have preferred to wait until he was 2 years but I neutered him early because I was having a lot of difficulty finding a place to board him while he was intact.


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## Kittilicious

My vet said they will neuter Knuckles at 5months. I hope I'm not ruining this thread by asking why people want to wait 2 years?


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## LaRen616

Kittilicious said:


> My vet said they will neuter Knuckles at 5months. I hope I'm not ruining this thread by asking why people want to wait 2 years?


Males are physically mature around 2 years of age which means they are done growing, some males neutered before they are mature can look more feminine.


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## Kittilicious

So for just a "pet", it's ok to neuter early... if it doesn't matter to you how they fill out later? There are no health reasons on when the best time is?


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## LaRen616

Kittilicious said:


> So for just a "pet", it's ok to neuter early... if it doesn't matter to you how they fill out later? There are no health reasons on when the best time is?


Both of my dogs are just pets. 

Some people say if you spay/neuter early you can prevent cancer but dogs still get cancer even if they were spayed/neutered early.

IMO it is better to wait until they are 1+ years old to get spayed/neutered so they are more mature both physically and mentally.


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## Catu

I don't neuter my males
I waited to spay my female after 3 years old. I would have preferred to let her intact, but since she will not be bred and my pup is her uncle, I didn't want to take chances.


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## DanielleOttoMom

Otto is not neutered and I will more than like not neuter him unless I had too. So If I had to pick when.... it would be after his 2nd B-Day.


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## Draugr

Preferably never, for either gender, excepting if necessary as treatment for immediate health issues (NOT as a prophylactic), or if heats were wrecking heck on her body (a friend had a mastiff like that). A male, maybe if he was routinely running off (and for some reason I was unable to prevent that) or if I was living in a house and all my neighbors constantly had females going in and out of heat and he was miserable or something like that.

But, excepting specific/extreme circumstances, never.


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## Dooney's Mom

Ya this is definitely a HOT topic of opinions. My very first dog died from uterine cancer (she was never spayed) my mom's Jack Russell also died from cancer (not spayed) My first GSD I spayed right after her first heat (about a 11 months old). She lived to be 16 years old, and it was her hips that gave out. 

Female heats are SOOOO messy, I have no intentions of breeding Dooney, so I just got her spayed at 8 months (hoping to avoid a heat cycle). If I had a male I would probably wait until at least 18 months of age. The owners of her litter mate brother are waiting until he is 2 to get him "fixed" due to their vets recommendation. For me it was just the messy thing- I didn't want to have to deal with diapers, the mess, etc. The vet said anytime after 6 months, and rescues/humane society's spay much earlier than that. 

Waiting and not waiting i think both have their drawbacks.


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## PaddyD

LaRen616 said:


> Sorry I forgot to mention, this thread is when do your PREFER having your dog spayed/neutered, not when did you have your dog spayed/neutered.
> 
> Sorry I didn't add that in! My apologies!


All the same for me. I had them spayed based on my preference. My last 2 dogs died of cancer at 13. The cancer was everywhere except in their female parts.


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## Emoore

Kittilicious said:


> So for just a "pet", it's ok to neuter early... if it doesn't matter to you how they fill out later? There are no health reasons on when the best time is?


There are health arguments on both sides. This is one of those things where you can go down the rabbit hole if you're not careful. The trouble is that, like a lot of other things with dogs, we don't have any double-blind placebo-controlled studies that show conclusively whether earlier or later neutering is healthier. I know there was one study done in Rottweilers that showed dogs neutered earlier than 15 months tended to develop osteosarcoma more so than dogs neutered after 15 months. Some studies show health and cancer benefits to neutering earlier. There's some debate over whether earlier or later neutering is better for prostate cancer.

You can trust your vet and neuter at six months, keeping in mind that most vets have both a financial and social stake in neutering dogs young. You can dig into the research on your own and make up your own mind. You can neuter later. You can never neuter as long as you're confident you can keep your dog from ever siring a litter. Personally I think later neutering is better for the health of the dog _so long as the owner is 100% sure they can keep the dog from siring a litter._

Personally, I do plan to neuter Kopper once he's around the year and a half mark. I'm heavily involved in rescue and I want to adopt a dog within the next few years. Some rescue orgs won't let you adopt or foster if you have an intact male in your household.


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## Lmilr

Males I would rather not neuter unless there was a specific reason or need for it. 
Our female dogs have always gotten spayed at about 6 to 8 months though to avoid any of the irritations of heat cycles....ie: neighbor dogs wanting to get too friendly or just flat driving male dogs crazy if we took them places. 
Plus since we dont like fixing the males but we dont want puppies the females have always been the natural choice.


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## LaRen616

Some females have Inverted Vulvas and Vets recommend waiting for the female to go through her 1st heat cycle before spaying because sometimes their heat cycle fixes the Inverted Vulva. 

There have been studies shown that if females with Inverted Vulvas are spayed before their first heat cycle they can have UTI's and bladder infections off and on and may need medication for the rest of their lives.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Kittilicious said:


> So for just a "pet", it's ok to neuter early... if it doesn't matter to you how they fill out later? There are no health reasons on when the best time is?


Small breeds tend to mature fast so neutering at 6 months is generally a non issue. For larger breeds who mature slower its best, if you are responsible enough, to wait until the growth plates are fully closed at around 18-24 months. Cutting off the hormones too early can cause(note every dog is different though) the dog to grow taller and leaner and can lead to bone and joint problems down the road because of the growth deformities.


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## Samba

I do not have surgery done for convenience for me. Of course, when and if is dependant on several different things. The rescues were spayed as part of contract. One dog I found dumped turned out to have some fun skills for competition, so he has to be neutered for PAL listing. If a health issue arises then altering may be needed.


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## Kittilicious

My husband is worried about him marking everything. I had a shepherd mix that I never did neuter (and unfortunately sired a litter - which I take full responsibility for because I thought the female was out of heat and I left them together) and he marked everything all the time, especially inside the garage (never in the house though). I've heard that having them neutered doesn't always mean they won't mark anyway. 
Lots of information to think about before the time comes, I guess.


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## LaRen616

Kittilicious said:


> My husband is worried about him marking everything. I had a shepherd mix that I never did neuter (and unfortunately sired a litter - which I take full responsibility for because I thought the female was out of heat and I left them together) and he marked everything all the time, especially inside the garage (never in the house though). I've heard that having them neutered doesn't always mean they won't mark anyway.
> Lots of information to think about before the time comes, I guess.


My male GSD has never lifted a leg to anything, my friend's unaltered male has never lifted his leg to anything. The 1.5 year old male GSD/Husky mix that I used to have was unaltered for the 4 months that I had him and he never marked in the house.


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## Emoore

Rocky is neutered, Kopper is not. They both mark fence posts and trees outside. Neither marks anything inside. It's actually kinda nice because if you're travelling and need them to go potty you can take them next to a tree and they'll go automatically.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Kittilicious said:


> My husband is worried about him marking everything. I had a shepherd mix that I never did neuter (and unfortunately sired a litter - which I take full responsibility for because I thought the female was out of heat and I left them together) and he marked everything all the time, especially inside the garage (never in the house though). I've heard that having them neutered doesn't always mean they won't mark anyway.
> Lots of information to think about before the time comes, I guess.



I've seen neutered dogs mark all over the inside of a house before, some intact males will do it and some won't. My Dobie is 22 months old and still intact. The only time he has ever marked inside was when I was living with a roommate who had a Giant Schnauzer that was in heat. My boy lost his brain for a little bit and believe me, I was real close to taking him in for "brain surgery" at that point! Aside from that issue he has never marked inside and he has lived with many intact and altered dogs of both sexes. You can always buy a belly band for your dog when the time comes


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## MustLoveGSDs

LaRen616 said:


> My male GSD has never lifted a leg to anything, my friend's unaltered male has never lifted his leg to anything. The 1.5 year old male GSD/Husky mix that I used to have was unaltered for the 4 months that I had him and he never marked in the house.


Man, my female husky marks trees and bushes outside like a male dog! I don't know why but seeing female dogs mark like males just agitates me, lol.

eta she is 5 years old and was spayed at around 8 months!


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## msvette2u

Kittilicious said:


> So for just a "pet", it's ok to neuter early... if it doesn't matter to you how they fill out later? There are no health reasons on when the best time is?


Yes - we neuter all the dogs coming out of our rescue and they do just fine with it, no matter what the age.


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## Kittilicious

MustLoveGSDs said:


> I've seen neutered dogs mark all over the inside of a house before,


I had a Pomeranian that was neutered at 8 months and his marking in the house, outside the house, on beach towels/coolers at the lake, ever car tire, tree, telephone pole, flower... need I go on? He drove me NUTS! I told my hubby that obviously fixing a male doesn't cure that!


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## msvette2u

Kittilicious said:


> My husband is worried about him marking everything. I had a shepherd mix that I never did neuter (and unfortunately sired a litter - which I take full responsibility for because I thought the female was out of heat and I left them together) and he marked everything all the time, especially inside the garage (never in the house though). I've heard that having them neutered doesn't always mean they won't mark anyway.
> Lots of information to think about before the time comes, I guess.


Some boys do and some don't, but as a general "rule" sexual maturity will tend to bring on that behavior. And it won't go away if it's already set in place at the time of neuter.


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## Germanshepherdlova

As far as marking in the house goes, one of my males is neutered, the other is intact and neither of them ever mark in the house. They know that's a






. I had my dog neutered when he was 2 yo, so he was already sexually mature and still knows better than that. And my intact dog is also 2 years old.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Kittilicious said:


> I had a Pomeranian that was neutered at 8 months and his marking in the house, outside the house, on beach towels/coolers at the lake, ever car tire, tree, telephone pole, flower... need I go on? He drove me NUTS! I told my hubby that obviously fixing a male doesn't cure that!



Should have just peed on him and ended it right then and there! Show him who's boss!

kidding kidding


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## Germanshepherdlova

mustlovegsds said:


> should have just peed on him and ended it right then and there! Show him who's boss!
> 
> Kidding kidding


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## RocketDog

The first I'd ever heard of waiting to neuter a male for growth reasons was when I joined here. 

Someone should've told my GSD/Malamute mix who ended up at 29 1/2 inches and 120lbs that he wouldn't fill out since I neutered him at 5 months.


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## Lilie

For me, I don't spueter unless there is a need to. Although I don't plan on breeding my male, there isn't a need to have him neutered. I don't have any any intact females. 

Next year I hope to get a puppy. If the breeder decides a female is my best choice, I think I'll get her spade before I'll get my male neutered. Mostly because it would be easier on me.


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## Draugr

If you have a dog marking indoors that's a housebreaking/training issue.

Maybe a medical problem, like a UTI or something. But the last thing I'd be blaming it on are his glands.


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## cwedge11

Can anyone tell me if spaying stops the bleeding from occuring?


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## Kittilicious

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Should have just peed on him and ended it right then and there! Show him who's boss!
> 
> kidding kidding


Don't say that!  Someone once told my husband that if he marks over the spots in his garage that Max (the intact shepherd mix I had) was marking, Max would stop. 

Needless to say, it didn't work :rofl:


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## Emoore

cwedge11 said:


> Can anyone tell me if spaying stops the bleeding from occuring?


You're talking about bleeding twice a year from going into heat? Yes, spaying stops that.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Kittilicious said:


> Don't say that!  Someone once told my husband that if he marks over the spots in his garage that Max (the intact shepherd mix I had) was marking, Max would stop.
> 
> Needless to say, it didn't work :rofl:


LOL!!!! See people actually believe that stuff!! Too funny!!! I almost died laughing when someone once told me that to show your dog you are alpha you just pee on it and it understands.


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## LaRen616

Draugr said:


> *If you have a dog marking indoors that's a housebreaking/training issue*.
> 
> Maybe a medical problem, like a UTI or something. But the last thing I'd be blaming it on are his glands.


Yes, I have heard that from my Vet.


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## selzer

I voted never on both, but would if they ever had a serious problem in the reproductive organs, where spay/neuter might save their life.


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## Lucy Dog

Females 6-12 months, males 1-2 years. Always had good results with those time frames.


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## lhczth

Donovan will never be neutered unless at some point he developes a health issues that requires it (or he keeps me awake moaning, ). My girls I have generally done later in life. Some around 5 and some a bit later. I worry about Pyometritis so do them all eventually.


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## Germanshepherdlova

RocketDog said:


> The first I'd ever heard of waiting to neuter a male for growth reasons was when I joined here.
> 
> Someone should've told my GSD/Malamute mix who ended up at 29 1/2 inches and 120lbs that he wouldn't fill out since I neutered him at 5 months.


I have read that they keep on growing-many times taller than they should have been, but their masculine or feminine looks do not develop as sharply as they would have, had they not been neutered so young. Especially a breed like the GSD who have very defined female and male characteristics when they mature.


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## ChancetheGSD

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Man, my female husky marks trees and bushes outside like a male dog! I don't know why but seeing female dogs mark like males just agitates me, lol.
> 
> eta she is 5 years old and was spayed at around 8 months!


My female (Zoey) does the SAME thing and always has. She doesn't even have to be against a tree or bush, she'll co ck a leg when she pees in the middle of the yard. Zoey is also a humper. =x But she's never "marked" inside.

Eevee squats like a lady though. 

I prefer NOT to spay/neuter unless I have to. Zoey was intact until she was 10, she got spayed because she got pyometra. Which doesn't happen in ALL intact cases so it hasn't put me off of my decision to keep Eevee intact. Zoey is 13.5 years old, happy, active, healthy and going very strong. I'm expecting plenty more years with my girl. :wub:


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## spidermilk

Dax isn't neutered and right now I have no reason to get him neutered. However, we plan on getting a second cat, and a second dog some time in the future and I would like them to be rescues. I think that I will have to neuter Dax to get a rescue? I would also really like to foster (before I get a second dog), when one of my roomies moves out, pretty sure I will have to neuter Dax.


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## ChancetheGSD

spidermilk said:


> Dax isn't neutered and right now I have no reason to get him neutered. However, we plan on getting a second cat, and a second dog some time in the future and I would like them to be rescues. I think that I will have to neuter Dax to get a rescue? I would also really like to foster (before I get a second dog), when one of my roomies moves out, pretty sure I will have to neuter Dax.


It will probably depend on the shelter. Most the ones who require you to be approved first require your current animals to be spayed/neutered. We went through animal control to get Chance and that was basically a "if you've got the money, you get the dog" situation. The girl asked a couple questions but it was pure curiosity of the worker who was showing us the dogs, nothing required to adopt one. We lied and said we had 1 dog at the time just because my mom didn't want to sound like a hoarder or anything LOL....We had 3. Chance was #4. 2 were intact and 1 neutered. But they never asked about that and we didn't have to do a home check to get him. (Pit Bulls were the only exception, those required home checks) Chance WAS neutered before he could come home though so I guess they figured he wouldn't be breeding anyways so it didn't matter.

Most places that do fostering tend to require the animals in your home be spayed/neutered as well though.


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## Draugr

spidermilk said:


> Dax isn't neutered and right now I have no reason to get him neutered. However, we plan on getting a second cat, and a second dog some time in the future and I would like them to be rescues. I think that I will have to neuter Dax to get a rescue? I would also really like to foster (before I get a second dog), when one of my roomies moves out, pretty sure I will have to neuter Dax.


It's still possible to foster with an intact pet, some organizations are quite willing to work with you. It helps to have been involved in the rescue/foster scene for awhile too so that you have some references.

You wouldn't be able to foster any intact dogs of the opposite sex, but as long as there is no pregnancy risk, some rescues will work with you. Just harder, and it takes more seraching to find a place that would work with you.

That's something I've been considering myself but neutering mine is an absolute firm no. I had some friends of mine who are very actively involved in various rescues ask about that, more than a few said, presuming you're a good fostering candidate, having an intact pet is not a huge obstacle. But it helps to have someone who can vouch for you. Because like it or not there is a stigma, having an intact pet, people think you are automatically irresponsible and contributing dozens of puppies a year to the "pet population problem." :eyeroll:

Some rescules though are too wrapped up in prejudices to ever give you a chance. They can't see beyond the stereotype. I know one person (I would say we are *barely* on speaking terms) who won't give even a glance at a foster application or an adoption application if intact pets are in the house, she basically is revolted. It's very, very sad. She cannot understand that "responsible ownership" and "speutered pets" are not interchangable terms.

Most I've heard about though, and the ones I do have friends involved with, they realize that people are individuals and are willing to give people an individual look.


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## MustLoveGSDs

I've fostered countless dogs(both unspayed and un-neutered) for GSD and Doberman rescue while having an intact male in the house. I'd send an email of interest expressing your intent and prove your responsibility, establish a relationship with the rescue board, that's what I've done and I've always been approved to foster.


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## Pepper311

I have read a lot seen a lot had my own dogs. Talked to many people. I am calling my vet this week to set up a spay. My dog is 6 months and female. 

Very low chance of cancer in females when they are spayed before first heat. 

For a male I think 8 month is a good age.


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## RocketDog

I don't think anyone mistook him for a female, lol, although he was extremely gentle: (and I'm just looking for an excuse to post a pic of him--he was an AWESOME dog)










This was him in about March--he was born in mid December (and me, 20 years ago, NO JOKES, please  )


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## overtgabby

I like to spay/nueter before the hormones get raging.. at 4/5 months. If they are pets.. who cares how they look? Are you going to love them any less? Plus, my work at the shelter proved.. males nuetered after they get the breeding urge.. will Still go after bitches in heat, AND hook up.


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## Jessiewessie99

Tanner was neutered before 2 years old and turned out just fine. Does not look femine at all. Molly was spayed at 6 months and is doing just fine. I will alter my pets when they are between 1 1/2 to 2 years old.


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## 2GSDmom

Not ever, again. If I ever have another dog sterilized it will be by tubal ligation or vasectomy. I will never again be responsible for screwing up the natural hormonal structure regulating the growth, endecrine system and mental maturation of one more dog. I will never again mutilate a dog on the altar of Responsiblity. These dogs are not just living less heathy lives and growing abnormally, speutering upsets their social structure---the very attribute that makes dogs valuable to humans. They are sexual beings, just like us, and they are confused when we mess with it. This leads to behaviorial and aggression issues. There's a lot of misinformation and just plain mistruths concerning this. For instance, spayed females are the Most aggressive dogs--not intact males. Males who mark in your house don't have too much testosterone, they have too little or ineffective training. Males neutered before puberty exhibit more aggression, not less, are inclined to mount more than intact males and are harder to train (poor attention spans). In other words, they never grow up. Not that big of a deal with a toy breed, but a full grown GSD acting and thinking like a puppy? I call that a real bad idea. No wonder we're having more and more behavioral problems with dogs. I say, "Be Humane--Sterilize--Don't Neuter".


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## Chicagocanine

All of my female dogs were already spayed when I got them (I got them as adults). Most of the males I've had were dogs I rescued as adults and fostered, so they were neutered before they were adopted out (or in my foster failure's case he ended up staying with us...) If I had a male pup I would not neuter until at least 1 year old, preferably later.




2GSDmom said:


> Not ever, again. If I ever have another dog sterilized it will be by tubal ligation or vasectomy.


Would you not spay a dog even if it was in their best interest for their health?

I noticed most of the issues you mentioned are regarding a dog s/n as a puppy, not as an adult?


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## RocketDog

2GSDmom said:


> Not ever, again. If I ever have another dog sterilized it will be by tubal ligation or vasectomy. I will never again be responsible for screwing up the natural hormonal structure regulating the growth, endecrine system and mental maturation of one more dog. I will never again mutilate a dog on the altar of Responsiblity. These dogs are not just living less heathy lives and growing abnormally, speutering upsets their social structure---the very attribute that makes dogs valuable to humans. They are sexual beings, just like us, and they are confused when we mess with it. This leads to behaviorial and aggression issues. *There's a lot of misinformation and just plain mistruths concerning this. For instance, spayed females are the Most aggressive dogs--not intact males. Males who mark in your house don't have too much testosterone, they have too little or ineffective training. Males neutered before puberty exhibit more aggression, not less, are inclined to mount more than intact males and are harder to train (poor attention spans).* In other words, they never grow up. Not that big of a deal with a toy breed, but a full grown GSD acting and thinking like a puppy? I call that a real bad idea. No wonder we're having more and more behavioral problems with dogs. I say, "Be Humane--Sterilize--Don't Neuter".


Information, studies, links to back this up? 

On a side note, in my old neighborhood there were plenty of dogs. We used to go down to the end of the street, in the cul-de-sac and have bonfire parties, where the dogs would play off leash. There were 3 Goldens, 2 yellow Labs (one mine) and a mix and a GSD. The ONLY aggressive dog, was my friends UNSPAYED GOLDEN, in fact, the only unaltered dog in the group. And she was also the most annoying. Not because she was untrained, either.


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## Alexandria610

2GSDmom said:


> Not ever, again. If I ever have another dog sterilized it will be by tubal ligation or vasectomy. I will never again be responsible for screwing up the natural hormonal structure regulating the growth, endecrine system and mental maturation of one more dog. I will never again mutilate a dog on the altar of Responsiblity. These dogs are not just living less heathy lives and growing abnormally,* speutering upsets their social structure---the very attribute that makes dogs valuable to humans. They are sexual beings, just like us, and they are confused when we mess with it. This leads to behaviorial and aggression issues.* There's a lot of misinformation and just plain mistruths concerning this. For instance, spayed females are the Most aggressive dogs--not intact males. Males who mark in your house don't have too much testosterone, they have too little or ineffective training. Males neutered before puberty exhibit more aggression, not less, are inclined to mount more than intact males and are harder to train (poor attention spans). In other words, they never grow up. Not that big of a deal with a toy breed, but a full grown GSD acting and thinking like a puppy? I call that a real bad idea. No wonder we're having more and more behavioral problems with dogs. I say, "Be Humane--Sterilize--Don't Neuter".


 
Uhm. I've always had altered dogs in the house, and it's always been more than one. As far as I've experienced and seen, the social balance and order of my pack has NEVER been screwed up. I find that regardless of whether or not my animal is spayed/neutered or kept intact, it is still valuable to me. Taking away internal reproductive organs and some hormones doesn't make the dog a vegetable. And honestly, I haven't found that it changes their personality very much at all, if any.

And just to clarify, I'm not sure what you mean by 'sexual beings, just like us.' Do you mean that they commit the act for more than just to reproduce? The only animals that have ever been proven to commit the act for more than just to reproduce are humans, dolphins, and the Bonobo monkey. I have found various links that talk of this - I will not post them on the forum, since they are not exactly 'family friendly' and talk a lot about the subject.

Oh, and those same dogs that I have had spayed/neutered in the past (and the ones I currently own that have been altered)? They show absolutely NO sign of aggression, and as far as I can tell, they have exhibited no signs of behavioral issues (except the one, when she was younger, because she was abandoned as a puppy). She's very well-adjusted now, but her being skittish and unsure of new things had nothing to do with her alteration and simply with her past experiences as a puppy.


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## GSDElsa

2GSDmom said:


> They are sexual beings, just like us, and they are confused when we mess with it. This leads to behaviorial and aggression issues. There's a lot of misinformation and just plain mistruths concerning this. For instance, spayed females are the Most aggressive dogs--not intact males. Males neutered before puberty exhibit more aggression, not less, are inclined to mount more than intact males and are harder to train (poor attention spans). In other words, they never grow up.




Speaking of spreading misinformation!


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## sparra

2GSDmom said:


> They are sexual beings, just like us, and they are confused when we mess with it. This leads to behaviorial and aggression issues. There's a lot of misinformation and just plain mistruths concerning this. For instance, spayed females are the Most aggressive dogs--not intact males. Males who mark in your house don't have too much testosterone, they have too little or ineffective training. Males neutered before puberty exhibit more aggression, not less, are inclined to mount more than intact males and are harder to train (poor attention spans). In other words, they never grow up.


That's a pretty big generalization. I think the word "some" might be missing from a few of those observations.

I have worked in a veterinary practice and we always told people 6months for both male and female.
This time around with my boy I have decided to wait until around 15months due to what I have learned on here as it seems to make sense.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

I voted based on what I would do if I every got an intact puppy; I've never personally had that experience. I would not neuter a male dog (barring any health reasons that would make it necessary). I would spay a female after about 2 years because I would want to make sure she had all the necessary hormones for proper development, but I personally don't want to deal with an intact female, so there would probably be an eventual spay. I'm not set in stone on that last one though.


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## chelle

I was all set to neuter Bailey until I posted here about it and got a whole lot of feedback. I've decided to wait, and not because I'm *that* concerned that he could possibly grow lanky and "feminine" looking. That's not a huge concern. It was just that the "wait to neuter" crowd was more convincing with the pros for not doing so early. There was also a very interesting thread not long ago about the behavior of the intact vs neutered males at a privately owned dog park. 

So I've decided to wait. So far, at seven months, Bailey doesn't mark and still squats like a girl. I hope he always does.!

I had my two others spayed very early. In hindsight, I wish I would've waited a bit longer. I think it did cause some bladder problems for my oldest when she was young. Can't prove it of course.


----------



## 2GSDmom

Wow, sorry for putting anyone on the defensive or offensive--it's just that this has been my reality for the last 10 mos. I have a prepubertantly neutered male (not my choice--but that's what is done as a matter of course for all shelter dogs here, regardless of age or breed/size. I had no idea, not having had a dog neutered before maturity before, of how bad of an situation we were signing up for. We adopted at 12 weeks, and he was terrific. Good conformation, no fear responses, affectionate and bold. A great GSD puppy. By day two he had completely bonded with our 3 yr old NM GSD, who treated him like his own pup. As a matter of fact, many people mistake them for father and son.

He house-trained in two days, was eager and willing to learn--a quick and alert pup. Then about the time puberty would normally start, we began to have problems. He became skiddish and fearful of strange dogs--all strange dogs......and then kids...then anything out of the ordinary...He became so reactive, we stopped going to the classes, stores, parks, or hiking , or camping...any place we had a possiblity of running into strange people or dogs. At first, you tell yourself it's a phase... then you blame it on the unknown genetics of a rescue...then you notice he's beginning to look like a girl? That's strange...oh, look he's developing a b*tch-stripe like a skunk! He's getting a long skinny head, narrow chest and legs like a greyhound! What happened to my perfect GSD puppy? Why is my other dog suddenly getting irritated with him, when he used to have boundless tolerance for him? I got tired of asking questions--I went in search of answers. I found them. I didn't like them. They essentially pointed out my dog was irrevocably broken. I didn't accept that--I went in search of solutions--special training techniques were a bust--many trainers here and in Europe are finding the same problems with these animals--they're not having much success either. Medical--not any existing proticols--but lots of suggestions by researchers and vets that hormone replacment therapy(HRT) is probably the only hope for these animals. I even tried a Holistic Vet--at least she understood the basic problem--no nads, no proper growth patterns--including mental and emotional. I finally laid out all the research (reams) and recommendations to my vet---She works with S/N Taskforce--We had the longest vet visit i've ever had---1-1/2 hrs. She began thinking I was probably overreacting--by the end. she ordered a full battery of tests, reviewed them and talked extensively with other vets and researchers-- and then ordered the Methyltestosterone. My boy just finished his second month of HRT--and a second bunch of tests--he's got another 2 mos to go and then a final round of testing. It's been exhausting and expensive--most people would not have bothered--they'd have rehomed, returned, abandoned or euthanized. His skull has reached nearly normal width, his legs have stopped growing, his bark has deepened, his attention span has improved, though his retention is still somewhat lacking(we hope this will resolve with further treatment), and his coat has finally achieved mature hardness. Most importantly, his reactivity has lessened, and we have been able to resume some of our former activities. He's not now or ever was brain damaged--it isn't his cognative abilities that have been affected by the lack of hormones, but his abilities surrounding "good" decision making(otherwise known as "maturation"). A trait most GSD owners highly value.

As to the "sexual" nature of dogs and humans(let's try not to climb into any gutters)--I refer to our similar sexual/social setup--i.e. pairbonded family units and loose tribal affiliations--you know--the thing that we exploited in order to bond canines to our family units for millennia. We rely on sight for initial sensory input--dogs rely on smell. Neutered animals don't smell the same--this alters the social structure in ways we can't begin to fathom. That these animals have been able to function while so handicapped is to their credit not ours...we can sterilize without removing gonads, why do we persist in a more invasive and potentially destructive(to our working and social relationships with domestic canines) method?... Just asking...

"Some" is a qualifier for an opinion--I wasn't giving one, I was relating research conclusions. The reasearch was clear---our perceptions are often colored by our own preconceptions. Just because females are supposed to be the "gentler" sex does not follow that it's true. The research in question showed aggressiveness in descending order: Most aggressive: Spayed females, Intact males, Intact females, Neutered males. However, the researchers found a disturbing exception to the latter--males and females neutered/spayed before the onset of puberty were found to exhibit more aggression and to display undesirable sexual behaviors(i.e.mounting). Anecdotally, I have owned and been around neutered and spayed dogs all my life as well as intact ones and every spayed female I've known has been extremely dominant. The only aggressive behavior I've seen out of intact females is when they're "broody"---same as with any other animal---chickens, bears, deer...... Now, I realize my own experience is all anecdotal... but the research is out there and it's being done by some very impressive researchers, like Dr. Chris Zink (of John Hopkins--yeah, THAT John Hospkins---Dr. Zink not a nut, she really does know what she's talking about and how to do a proper study) and her collegues. There's is also an important compilation of mutiple peer-reviewed studies that the head of Animal Studies at Rutgers thought merited enough attention that he wrote a foreword to the study.

Spaying is mainly for our convenience, not their well being. We don't like having to deal with heats twice a year, and it does reduce the incidence of the most common and least virilent form of breast cancer(just like humans--though I don't see alot of women running out to get hysterectomies because they hate buying tampons and don't want breast cancer. But, on the other hand--spaying increases incontinence which is a daily mess, not just twice a year....

In her book ANIMALS MAKE US HUMAN, Temple Grandin posits that the increases in dog aggression on humans in the last 30 yrs might have to do with ever increasingly severe leash laws--that by trying to make ourselves safer, we are altering the natural behavior of the animal so that it can no longer interact appropriately with it's own kind, therefore, making ourselves less safe. During those 30 years, we have steadily increased the percentage of neutered/spayed dogs in the population as well, which has in turn, altered the social structures of the dogs living among us..If we are causing harm we need to know. We need to know if we've been doing the right thing, not just believe that we have been.

Hopefully, that covers everything--If not, I'm happy to explain further.

Also, I find it very amusing to be asked to backup info by someone using an anecdote....


----------



## Micky

Stella is now 1 year old, I have made the decision to have her spayed when she is 2 years of age, for the reason that she will have done her growing.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

Stark is not neutered (and my first male dog ever) and I have no plans to do so unless there is a health reason/emergency as to why I should.

Zefra is not spayed either, and at this point and time, there is no plans to spay either. First reason being she is not my dog (per say) and may end up being breed worthy (who knows?!) so plans are to keep her intact until she is about 2-3 to see how things are progressing. At that time if we deem her "not breed worthy" then I will spay her.


----------



## Liesje

I checked "I never neuter my males". I won't say "never" but I don't/won't do it if there's not a reason. My mutt was neutered which is fine, I have nothing against shelters and rescues neutering dogs and I understand their reasons. My female came spayed (spayed at 3 years and she had been bred by the previous owner) but I probably won't own any more females so I don't have to worry about when to spay.


----------



## prophecy

I have spayed all of my females,1 was fixed @2yrs,the rest under 1 yr(at 6-8mo). Males I do not fix unless needed (for health reasons).


----------



## Jessiewessie99

2GSDmom said:


> Wow, sorry for putting anyone on the defensive or offensive--it's just that this has been my reality for the last 10 mos. I have a prepubertantly neutered male (not my choice--but that's what is done as a matter of course for all shelter dogs here, regardless of age or breed/size. I had no idea, not having had a dog neutered before maturity before, of how bad of an situation we were signing up for. We adopted at 12 weeks, and he was terrific. Good conformation, no fear responses, affectionate and bold. A great GSD puppy. By day two he had completely bonded with our 3 yr old NM GSD, who treated him like his own pup. As a matter of fact, many people mistake them for father and son.
> 
> He house-trained in two days, was eager and willing to learn--a quick and alert pup. Then about the time puberty would normally start, we began to have problems. He became skiddish and fearful of strange dogs--all strange dogs......and then kids...then anything out of the ordinary...He became so reactive, we stopped going to the classes, stores, parks, or hiking , or camping...any place we had a possiblity of running into strange people or dogs. At first, you tell yourself it's a phase... then you blame it on the unknown genetics of a rescue...then you notice he's beginning to look like a girl? * That's strange...oh, look he's developing a b*tch-stripe like a skunk! * He's getting a long skinny head, narrow chest and legs like a greyhound! What happened to my perfect GSD puppy? Why is my other dog suddenly getting irritated with him, when he used to have boundless tolerance for him? I got tired of asking questions--I went in search of answers. I found them. I didn't like them. They essentially pointed out my dog was irrevocably broken. I didn't accept that--I went in search of solutions--special training techniques were a bust--many trainers here and in Europe are finding the same problems with these animals--they're not having much success either. Medical--not any existing proticols--but lots of suggestions by researchers and vets that hormone replacment therapy(HRT) is probably the only hope for these animals. I even tried a Holistic Vet--at least she understood the basic problem--no nads, no proper growth patterns--including mental and emotional. I finally laid out all the research (reams) and recommendations to my vet---She works with S/N Taskforce--We had the longest vet visit i've ever had---1-1/2 hrs. She began thinking I was probably overreacting--by the end. she ordered a full battery of tests, reviewed them and talked extensively with other vets and researchers-- and then ordered the Methyltestosterone. My boy just finished his second month of HRT--and a second bunch of tests--he's got another 2 mos to go and then a final round of testing. It's been exhausting and expensive--most people would not have bothered--they'd have rehomed, returned, abandoned or euthanized. His skull has reached nearly normal width, his legs have stopped growing, his bark has deepened, his attention span has improved, though his retention is still somewhat lacking(we hope this will resolve with further treatment), and his coat has finally achieved mature hardness. Most importantly, his reactivity has lessened, and we have been able to resume some of our former activities. He's not now or ever was brain damaged--it isn't his cognative abilities that have been affected by the lack of hormones, but his abilities surrounding "good" decision making(otherwise known as "maturation"). A trait most GSD owners highly value.
> 
> *As to the "sexual" nature of dogs and humans(let's try not to climb into any gutters)--I refer to our similar sexual/social setup--i.e. pairbonded family units and loose tribal affiliations--you know--the thing that we exploited in order to bond canines to our family units for millennia. We rely on sight for initial sensory input--dogs rely on smell. Neutered animals don't smell the same--this alters the social structure in ways we can't begin to fathom. That these animals have been able to function while so handicapped is to their credit not ours...we can sterilize without removing gonads, why do we persist in a more invasive and potentially destructive(to our working and social relationships with domestic canines) method?... Just asking...*
> 
> *"Some" is a qualifier for an opinion--I wasn't giving one, I was relating research conclusions. The reasearch was clear---our perceptions are often colored by our own preconceptions. Just because females are supposed to be the "gentler" sex does not follow that it's true. The research in question showed aggressiveness in descending order: Most aggressive: Spayed females, Intact males, Intact females, Neutered males. However, the researchers found a disturbing exception to the latter--males and females neutered/spayed before the onset of puberty were found to exhibit more aggression and to display undesirable sexual behaviors(i.e.mounting). Anecdotally, I have owned and been around neutered and spayed dogs all my life as well as intact ones and every spayed female I've known has been extremely dominant. The only aggressive behavior I've seen out of intact females is when they're "broody"---same as with any other animal---chickens, bears, deer...... Now, I realize my own experience is all anecdotal... but the research is out there and it's being done by some very impressive researchers, like Dr. Chris Zink (of John Hopkins--yeah, THAT John Hospkins---Dr. Zink not a nut, she really does know what she's talking about and how to do a proper study) and her collegues. There's is also an important compilation of mutiple peer-reviewed studies that the head of Animal Studies at Rutgers thought merited enough attention that he wrote a foreword to the study.*
> 
> Spaying is mainly for our convenience, not their well being. We don't like having to deal with heats twice a year, and it does reduce the incidence of the most common and least virilent form of breast cancer(just like humans--though I don't see alot of women running out to get hysterectomies because they hate buying tampons and don't want breast cancer. But, on the other hand--spaying increases incontinence which is a daily mess, not just twice a year....
> 
> *In her book ANIMALS MAKE US HUMAN, Temple Grandin posits that the increases in dog aggression on humans in the last 30 yrs might have to do with ever increasingly severe leash laws--that by trying to make ourselves safer, we are altering the natural behavior of the animal so that it can no longer interact appropriately with it's own kind, therefore, making ourselves less safe. During those 30 years, we have steadily increased the percentage of neutered/spayed dogs in the population as well, which has in turn, altered the social structures of the dogs living among us..If we are causing harm we need to know. We need to know if we've been doing the right thing, not just believe that we have been.
> *
> Hopefully, that covers everything--If not, I'm happy to explain further.
> 
> Also, I find it very amusing to be asked to backup info by someone using an anecdote....


A bitch stripe is found in showlines, its not a trait just for "altered males".

I still don't think altering an animal effects my "sexual/social structure" at all. I am bonded with both of my dogs very much. They could careless if they altered. All they care about is pleasing me and loving me and being my companions.

I have an altered female and she show no aggression towards my other dog. My aunt's dogs are also altered and show no aggression, they are just spoiled brats. My girl also doesn't mount. I highly doubt it has to do with altering an animal.

My great aunt died of breast cancer, and had kids, so that raises my chances of getting breast cancer. Breast cancer can hit the healthiest of people. I don't think a woman will have a less chance of getting breast cancer if she gets herself fixed. I plan on having kids, my dog won't, I don't want to deal with heat cycles, and already hate my own periods. I feel its safer to alter, I haven't had any health related issues with my last female, who passed away due to old age.

I highly doubt "severe leash laws" have increased dog aggression on humans. I am pretty sure it has to do with people who don't know how to socialize, train, or are clueless when it comes to dogs. Yes, using the leashes do make it safe for me and my dogs.There are too many stupid dog owners out there who think their dog just wants "to play" while their dog is barking and growling and showing aggression towards my dogs. I have leashes so that my dogs can go places such as outside eating areas at restaurants, to the beach and other areas that allow dogs, so my dogs don't bother non-dog people. Once again, altering an animal does NOT effect their social structure with us or other dogs. 

If majority of the general public knew how to care for animals properly such as socializing their dogs, training their dogs, not abusing the dogs and knew how to handle their dogs we wouldn't have problems.


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## msvette2u

Puppies always lose their "puppy license", it has nothing to do with spay/neuter. 
Wow. That is a boat load of misinformation. 
I'll never believe a dog's head "got bigger" or broader or whatever, when you added hormones, unless it broke through the sutures which had sealed already :crazy:

And dogs stop growing when they stop growing. It's not like early neuter makes them grow forever or we'd 10' tall Chihuahuas (just to name one breed).

As to the other, dogs all go through phases, fear stages, and shyness or inattentiveness which you just train through. S/N does not change those phases which are normal no matter what age a dog is altered at.


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## vicky2200

I would spay any female that I did not intend to breed between 6-9 months. As for a male, if your not going to breed him it kind of mean to keep him intact. I have heard to wait until they reach full maturity or it will stunt their growth. Before I heard this I had Dakota neutered VERY young, maybe 4-5months old at the latest. He is currently 148lbs and 28" tall. I'm pretty sure his growth wasn't interfered with. Also if you do not spay/neuter your dogs they have an increased chance for cancer. I haven't decided when I will neuter my next male but he will definitely be neutered before he is 3 years old.


----------



## Draugr

vicky2200 said:


> As for a male, if your not going to breed him it kind of mean to keep him intact.


How so?



> I have heard to wait until they reach full maturity or it will stunt their growth.


It actually tends to make them grow taller. The sex hormones help the growth plates in the bones figure out when to close. Without them - or with very low levels, rather - they don't stop growing as quickly and you wind up with longer and more slender bones. The idea that their growth is stunted may be from the fact that without testosterone males don't tend to fill out and gain proper musculature. That's about the only thing I can think of.



> Also if you do not spay/neuter your dogs they have an increased chance for cancer.


That depends on the type of cancer. A generalization to which there are certainly exceptions - altering tends to decrease the risk of some mild cancers with good prognosis, and increase the risk of some pretty nasty cancers with poor prognosis.

And no matter which risks you are looking at they tend to be pretty small either way, below 5% no matter what.


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## msvette2u

> they don't stop growing as quickly and you wind up with longer and more slender bones.


Is there a study that says "more slender" or is it just longer?


----------



## Draugr

msvette2u said:


> Is there a study that says "more slender" or is it just longer?


I can try and find a study, somewhere, but that's always been something that has been very visibly apparent to me - that the skeleton as a whole has a lighter structure. I should have singled that out as a personal observation, though so thank you for pointing it out.


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## Emoore

Here's the thing:

When it was practiced, human castratos had a defined and recognized set of characteristics: unusually long arms and legs, unusually long rib bones, effeminate faces, lack of facial hair, and high-pitched voices. You could definitely tell an adult man from an adult castrato. 

Anyone who knows horses can tell a horse that was gelded young from a horse that was gelded after maturity from a mile away. Same thing with steers and bulls. Anybody who knows anything about cattle can tell a steer from a bull. 

Why are dogs different?  Honest question.


----------



## HankGSD

2GSDmom said:


> Not ever, again. If I ever have another dog sterilized it will be by tubal ligation or vasectomy. I will never again be responsible for screwing up the natural hormonal structure regulating the growth, endecrine system and mental maturation of one more dog. I will never again mutilate a dog on the altar of Responsiblity. These dogs are not just living less heathy lives and growing abnormally, speutering upsets their social structure---the very attribute that makes dogs valuable to humans. They are sexual beings, just like us, and they are confused when we mess with it. This leads to behaviorial and aggression issues. There's a lot of misinformation and just plain mistruths concerning this. For instance, spayed females are the Most aggressive dogs--not intact males. Males who mark in your house don't have too much testosterone, they have too little or ineffective training. Males neutered before puberty exhibit more aggression, not less, are inclined to mount more than intact males and are harder to train (poor attention spans). In other words, they never grow up. Not that big of a deal with a toy breed, but a full grown GSD acting and thinking like a puppy? I call that a real bad idea. No wonder we're having more and more behavioral problems with dogs. I say, "Be Humane--Sterilize--Don't Neuter".


 Well said.


----------



## Liesje

Coke was neutered very young (rescue) and people always mistake him for a female. He's very tall, leggy and sometimes his expression is more feminine. But, he's also a mix of unidentifiable origin so...


----------



## Draugr

Emoore said:


> Here's the thing:
> 
> When it was practiced, human castratos had a defined and recognized set of characteristics: unusually long arms and legs, unusually long rib bones, effeminate faces, lack of facial hair, and high-pitched voices. You could definitely tell an adult man from an adult castrato.
> 
> Anyone who knows horses can tell a horse that was gelded young from a horse that was gelded after maturity from a mile away. Same thing with steers and bulls. Anybody who knows anything about cattle can tell a steer from a bull.
> 
> Why are dogs different?  Honest question.


I do work on a farm, and yeah, a steer, from a distance, looks very much like a cow. You can spot a bull EASILY. They look almost nothing alike. It's not just the muscles, either, they are built differently.

I remember reading too that castratos were infamous for their foul tempers and migraines. I'm not sure how that may or may not correlate over to other species (I am more inclined to believe things like skeletal structure and musculature would directly translate over than behavioral traits, but you never know).

You are definitely going to have some changes going on, physically and mentally, when you deprive an animal of a primary hormone and change up its endocrine system (something tightly entwined with other bodily systems). More and more information is being made available to "us laymen" though so we can see exactly how profound, or insignificant, those changes are.

I think it's been done to dogs often enough though to show that you aren't sentencing them to death or anything ridiculous like that by having them altered.

(none of that was directed at you emoore I was just adding on to what you said).


----------



## msvette2u

Well it was pointed out in another thread that you'd never get a greyhound appearing Mastiff, neutered young or not. The bone mass will still be there.
I think we _think_ of differences (I mean there _must_ be right?) but not sure that it's an actuality. I'm not saying it isn't, but I'm saying there is really not a lot of proof there _is_, except the long bones/growth plates not closing. 

For instance...we have two Dachshunds (well we have more but this is a good example), one neutered young and one neutered late. The one neutered young looks much more "masculine", with heavier bone and more muscular than the one neutered late. The one neutered late has a feminine build, almost "pretty". Yet he was 2-3yrs. at the time of neuter. The one neutered young is a tad taller, but he still looks very masculine (and the height could be partly genetics).

And the one neutered late is the worst for peeing in this house when we add new fosters to the home :-/

You guys ought to look into the pit bull named Wallace. He's neutered and there's nothing feminine about him!

PS - interestingly enough, I notice our cat more than anything. Cats neutered young don't develop those fat pads on their heads and shoulders that define them as males. 
I just can't say I've really seen a lot of male dogs that you can tell a huge difference in their builds when neutered young.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Tanner was neutered young and he looks quite masculine to me.


----------



## Emoore

msvette2u said:


> You guys ought to look into the pit bull named Wallace. He's neutered and there's nothing feminine about him!


Wouldn't do me any good. To me, even female Pit Bulls look masculine.


----------



## RocketDog

2GSDmom said:


> Wow, sorry for putting anyone on the defensive or offensive--it's just that this has been my reality for the last 10 mos. I have a prepubertantly neutered male (not my choice--but that's what is done as a matter of course for all shelter dogs here, regardless of age or breed/size. I had no idea, not having had a dog neutered before maturity before, of how bad of an situation we were signing up for. We adopted at 12 weeks, and he was terrific. Good conformation, no fear responses, affectionate and bold. A great GSD puppy. By day two he had completely bonded with our 3 yr old NM GSD, who treated him like his own pup. As a matter of fact, many people mistake them for father and son.
> 
> He house-trained in two days, was eager and willing to learn--a quick and alert pup. Then about the time puberty would normally start, we began to have problems. He became skiddish and fearful of strange dogs--all strange dogs......and then kids...then anything out of the ordinary...He became so reactive, we stopped going to the classes, stores, parks, or hiking , or camping...any place we had a possiblity of running into strange people or dogs. At first, you tell yourself it's a phase... then you blame it on the unknown genetics of a rescue...then you notice he's beginning to look like a girl? That's strange...oh, look he's developing a b*tch-stripe like a skunk! He's getting a long skinny head, narrow chest and legs like a greyhound! What happened to my perfect GSD puppy? Why is my other dog suddenly getting irritated with him, when he used to have boundless tolerance for him? I got tired of asking questions--I went in search of answers. I found them. I didn't like them. They essentially pointed out my dog was irrevocably broken. I didn't accept that--I went in search of solutions--special training techniques were a bust--many trainers here and in Europe are finding the same problems with these animals--they're not having much success either. Medical--not any existing proticols--but lots of suggestions by researchers and vets that hormone replacment therapy(HRT) is probably the only hope for these animals. I even tried a Holistic Vet--at least she understood the basic problem--no nads, no proper growth patterns--including mental and emotional. I finally laid out all the research (reams) and recommendations to my vet---She works with S/N Taskforce--We had the longest vet visit i've ever had---1-1/2 hrs. She began thinking I was probably overreacting--by the end. she ordered a full battery of tests, reviewed them and talked extensively with other vets and researchers-- and then ordered the Methyltestosterone. My boy just finished his second month of HRT--and a second bunch of tests--he's got another 2 mos to go and then a final round of testing. It's been exhausting and expensive--most people would not have bothered--they'd have rehomed, returned, abandoned or euthanized. His skull has reached nearly normal width, his legs have stopped growing, his bark has deepened, his attention span has improved, though his retention is still somewhat lacking(we hope this will resolve with further treatment), and his coat has finally achieved mature hardness. Most importantly, his reactivity has lessened, and we have been able to resume some of our former activities. He's not now or ever was brain damaged--it isn't his cognative abilities that have been affected by the lack of hormones, but his abilities surrounding "good" decision making(otherwise known as "maturation"). A trait most GSD owners highly value.
> 
> As to the "sexual" nature of dogs and humans(let's try not to climb into any gutters)--I refer to our similar sexual/social setup--i.e. pairbonded family units and loose tribal affiliations--you know--the thing that we exploited in order to bond canines to our family units for millennia. We rely on sight for initial sensory input--dogs rely on smell. Neutered animals don't smell the same--this alters the social structure in ways we can't begin to fathom. That these animals have been able to function while so handicapped is to their credit not ours...we can sterilize without removing gonads, why do we persist in a more invasive and potentially destructive(to our working and social relationships with domestic canines) method?... Just asking...
> 
> "Some" is a qualifier for an opinion--I wasn't giving one, I was relating research conclusions. The reasearch was clear---our perceptions are often colored by our own preconceptions. Just because females are supposed to be the "gentler" sex does not follow that it's true. The research in question showed aggressiveness in descending order: Most aggressive: Spayed females, Intact males, Intact females, Neutered males. However, the researchers found a disturbing exception to the latter--males and females neutered/spayed before the onset of puberty were found to exhibit more aggression and to display undesirable sexual behaviors(i.e.mounting). Anecdotally, I have owned and been around neutered and spayed dogs all my life as well as intact ones and every spayed female I've known has been extremely dominant. The only aggressive behavior I've seen out of intact females is when they're "broody"---same as with any other animal---chickens, bears, deer...... Now, I realize my own experience is all anecdotal... but the research is out there and it's being done by some very impressive researchers, like Dr. Chris Zink (of John Hopkins--yeah, THAT John Hospkins---Dr. Zink not a nut, she really does know what she's talking about and how to do a proper study) and her collegues. There's is also an important compilation of mutiple peer-reviewed studies that the head of Animal Studies at Rutgers thought merited enough attention that he wrote a foreword to the study.
> 
> Spaying is mainly for our convenience, not their well being. We don't like having to deal with heats twice a year, and it does reduce the incidence of the most common and least virilent form of breast cancer(just like humans--though I don't see alot of women running out to get hysterectomies because they hate buying tampons and don't want breast cancer. But, on the other hand--spaying increases incontinence which is a daily mess, not just twice a year....
> 
> In her book ANIMALS MAKE US HUMAN, Temple Grandin posits that the increases in dog aggression on humans in the last 30 yrs might have to do with ever increasingly severe leash laws--that by trying to make ourselves safer, we are altering the natural behavior of the animal so that it can no longer interact appropriately with it's own kind, therefore, making ourselves less safe. During those 30 years, we have steadily increased the percentage of neutered/spayed dogs in the population as well, which has in turn, altered the social structures of the dogs living among us..If we are causing harm we need to know. We need to know if we've been doing the right thing, not just believe that we have been.
> 
> Hopefully, that covers everything--If not, I'm happy to explain further.
> 
> Also, I find it very amusing to be asked to backup info by someone using an anecdote....


If you are referring to me at the end, I wasn't "using" an anecdote. I was merely relaying a personal experience. 

My request for links was genuine. You said you'd embarked on this huge quest to find information regarding your dog. I'd like to see them. I keep an open mind always. I admit I'm skeptical, which is why links would be useful.


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## Emoore

Does anyone have pictures of a thick-boned, solid-bodied, big-headed male German Shepherd (not a mastiff, pit bull, malamute or a mix) that you know for a fact was neutered under a years of age?


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## mysweetkaos

Emoore said:


> Does anyone have pictures of a thick-boned, solid-bodied, big-headed male German Shepherd (not a mastiff, pit bull, malamute or a mix) that you know for a fact was neutered under a years of age?


Our Kaos was neutered under a year....he is PB. I have some pics of him in an album. Not sure if he qualifies ....he is thick/solid and big headed in my opinion...or is that thick headed? Give me a minute I will put a couple pics on here. I may be biased, ok I am...but I don't think he looks "bitchy" acts like it sometimes but that's a whole other story


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## msvette2u

Yaeger (Rest in Peace) was done at 5-6 mos. soon after we adopted him.

He was 8yrs. old when he passed away of an FCE. 




























When we met Ruger, he looked like a young version of Yaeger...


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## vicky2200

When I said it reduces the risk for cancer, I was referring to ovarian, uterine, and testicular cancer. If they don't have the parts they cant get the cancer.


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## msvette2u

We've rescued many an older dog (over 7-8yrs) with cancers of the reproductive systems, that's for sure, including mammary, uterine/cervical and also testicular. We've also rescued older boys with perianal adenomas


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## VonKromeHaus

I personally believe in letting a dog fully mature before speutering it. I will only neuter males for health reasons and my vet agrees with that. If I have a female that won't be used for breeding, then I'll spay around 18months - 2 years of age! 

It really boils down to personal preference. There are studies to support either side.


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## 2GSDmom

Why yes, RocketDog, _that_ would be an _anecdote_. Anecdotal isn't a bad thing, it's just not _imperical, _which is what you were asking I provide, while using the other. Ironic, and therefore, amusing. Now, as to the aforementioned anecdote....the female Golden Retriever in question is the "normal" dog, not the "altered" ones. She also is a very "wolfy" breed--that is, GRs retain most of their wolf traits--one more, in fact, than GSDs do. That the other dogs make her uncomfortable is perhaps more to the point. Altered means altered...not "normal". A dog doesn't know Political Correctness from a hole in the wall--it just knows this dog doesn't smell and/or behave like a female/male dog The number of neutered animals who get along with one another is not the issue, whether or not intact animals can tolerate them, is. Humans have a hard time tolerating anyone outside social norms---and we're rational thinkers...how are dogs, who are not, supposed to accomodate an externally imposed disruption of their basic social order?

We have the ability to sterilize without "altering". Vasectomies and tubal ligations don't involve the removal of *vital* body parts--parts that provide dogs the same benefits they provide humans. Any doctor will tell you removal of any body part is a trauma to the system. There shouldn't have to be any reason other than medical to remove a functional system. "If it ain't broke...." Telling me your "altered " animal is healthy and happy is not an argument. It still begs the question, "could it be healthier and happier"? 

For me, the answer is an emphatic *YES*. I will sterilize, but not neuter, unless medically necessary.

Please bear in mind, I am *not* your research assistant and am under no obligation, real or imagined, to provide anything other than my own conclusions. One of which would be that if you're unwilling to expend the energy to Google "Dr. Chris Zink, early neuter, John Hopkins", you really aren't interested. If I'm wrong, all you gotta do is ASK..politely. Right now, however, I gotta go stuff a bird and then baste the cook. 
Have a very happy Thanksgiving.


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## Jessiewessie99

2GSDmom said:


> Why yes, RocketDog, _that_ would be an _anecdote_. Anecdotal isn't a bad thing, it's just not _imperical, _which is what you were asking I provide, while using the other. Ironic, and therefore, amusing. Now, as to the aforementioned anecdote....*the female Golden Retriever in question is the "normal" dog, not the "altered" ones. She also is a very "wolfy" breed--that is, GRs retain most of their wolf traits--one more, in fact, than GSDs do. That the other dogs make her uncomfortable is perhaps more to the point. Altered means altered...not "normal". A dog doesn't know Political Correctness from a hole in the wall--it just knows this dog doesn't smell and/or behave like a female/male dog The number of neutered animals who get along with one another is not the issue, whether or not intact animals can tolerate them, is. Humans have a hard time tolerating anyone outside social norms---and we're rational thinkers...how are dogs, who are not, supposed to accomodate an externally imposed disruption of their basic social order?*
> 
> We have the ability to sterilize without "altering". Vasectomies and tubal ligations don't involve the removal of *vital* body parts--parts that provide dogs the same benefits they provide humans. Any doctor will tell you removal of any body part is a trauma to the system. There shouldn't have to be any reason other than medical to remove a functional system. "If it ain't broke...." Telling me your "altered " animal is healthy and happy is not an argument. It still begs the question, "could it be healthier and happier"?
> 
> For me, the answer is an emphatic *YES*. I will sterilize, but not neuter, unless medically necessary.
> 
> Please bear in mind, I am *not* your research assistant and am under no obligation, real or imagined, to provide anything other than my own conclusions. One of which would be that if you're unwilling to expend the energy to Google "Dr. Chris Zink, early neuter, John Hopkins", you really aren't interested. If I'm wrong, all you gotta do is ASK..politely. Right now, however, I gotta go stuff a bird and then baste the cook.
> Have a very happy Thanksgiving.


I highly intact dogs care whether or not the dog they are playing with is altered or not. And I also don't believe Golden Retrievers are "more related" to wolves than GSDs are. I don't think an altered dog will care if their best canine bud is fixed or not.Also I don't think just because a dog is uncomfortable around other dogs is because they are fixed. I don't buy that. And I still don't see how altering an animal affects their social order. In the end I don't think my dogs care whether or not they have their reproductive organs or not. Also my dogs are normal, they may have their silly quirks, but it doesn't mean they are any less dog or below a intact animal. My dogs act, smell, look and sound like normal dogs, so therefore they are normal dogs.


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## Emoore

Jessiewessie99 said:


> And I also don't believe Golden Retrievers are "more related" to wolves than GSDs are.


2GSDMom is referring to a behavioral study in which the Goldens that were studied possessed 1 more of the 15 studied "wolfish" communication behaviors than the German Shepherds did. The study is discussed at length in Temple Grandin's fascinating book Animals in Translation. It does not mean that every Golden Retriever is a better communicator than every German Shepherd, nor does it mean that Goldens are genetically more similar to wolves (one would have to map the DNA to reach this conclusion). It means that the Goldens in the study presented 1/15 more wolfish communication behaviors than the GSDs in the study.


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## RocketDog

2GSDmom said:


> Why yes, RocketDog, _that_ would be an _anecdote_. Anecdotal isn't a bad thing, it's just not _imperical, _which is what you were asking I provide, while using the other. Ironic, and therefore, amusing. Now, as to the aforementioned anecdote....the female Golden Retriever in question is the "normal" dog, not the "altered" ones. She also is a very "wolfy" breed--that is, GRs retain most of their wolf traits--one more, in fact, than GSDs do. That the other dogs make her uncomfortable is perhaps more to the point. Altered means altered...not "normal". A dog doesn't know Political Correctness from a hole in the wall--it just knows this dog doesn't smell and/or behave like a female/male dog The number of neutered animals who get along with one another is not the issue, whether or not intact animals can tolerate them, is. Humans have a hard time tolerating anyone outside social norms---and we're rational thinkers...how are dogs, who are not, supposed to accomodate an externally imposed disruption of their basic social order?
> 
> We have the ability to sterilize without "altering". Vasectomies and tubal ligations don't involve the removal of *vital* body parts--parts that provide dogs the same benefits they provide humans. Any doctor will tell you removal of any body part is a trauma to the system. There shouldn't have to be any reason other than medical to remove a functional system. "If it ain't broke...." Telling me your "altered " animal is healthy and happy is not an argument. It still begs the question, "could it be healthier and happier"?
> 
> For me, the answer is an emphatic *YES*. I will sterilize, but not neuter, unless medically necessary.
> 
> Please bear in mind, I am *not* your research assistant and am under no obligation, real or imagined, to provide anything other than my own conclusions. One of which would be that if you're unwilling to expend the energy to Google "Dr. Chris Zink, early neuter, John Hopkins", you really aren't interested. If I'm wrong, all you gotta do is ASK..politely. Right now, however, I gotta go stuff a bird and then baste the cook.
> Have a very happy Thanksgiving.


Wow. I hope you have a bit of wine with your dinner. You might relax a bit. Or maybe you're just hormonal. 

I am confused as to how my request for links, would be seen somehow as an attack or a request for a "personal assistant". It seemed, by what you posted, that you had information close at hand. And googling one study hardly is proof in the making. Remember the autism/vaccine study? That was proven solidly incorrect later? And I asked, because your implied tone was that you and you alone were correct, that your stated views were FACT and the only answer on the subject. Of course I would ask to see the information that led you to this conclusion. I see no where that I was rude, as your "ask POLITELY" comment indicated. 

Also, if your line of thinking is correct, to extrapolate, then all women with complete hysterectomies are somehow "different" than the rest of us. Interesting. I'll have to tell my mom, who had one at the age of 54 and really has had no problems, (who is now 73 and had in fact less issues than some of her friends who did not and went through menopause). I'm sure she'll find it "amusing".


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## JakodaCD OA

I gotta agree with Rocketdog,,in that, I wish I could get spayed and get rid of these darn hot flashes! THEY STINK! )


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## 2GSDmom

First, thank you, Emoore, for picking up my slack--I do appreciate it.

RocketDog---I have spent months and have amassed reams of info--which specific links, on which research? I implied your demand (not request) was unfocused, combative and hippocritical---I never used the word rude(that was you)--Freudian Slip, perhaps? I resented the implication that my opinion must be validated by FACTS(again, your word, not mine--I had merely made reference to research being done--I didn't volunteer to provide it) but that yours(opinion) did not(require FACTS). If you are unable to see the inherent double standard in play, I can't help you.

I'm not hormonal anymore(but thank you for the lovely thought concerning the wine)--nor is hysterectomy near the age of menapause equivilent to _neutering prior to or shortly after puberty._ I'm assuming, I think fairly safely since you are the product, that your mother, not only reached sexual and physical maturity, but managed to enjoy most of its benefits. How does this bear on the importance of hormones on a canine's physical, mental and social development?

Jessiewessie99--How could you know?--do you have special powers? I know MY sense of smell positvely sucks compared to my dogs'. I can't _smell_ a person's gender--but dogs can--so it stands to reason they can also detect the Lack of hormones(after all, they can smell cancer cells and the chemical changes before seizures--can you?) Ask yourself why you are objecting so strenuously to the implication that we _might_ have taken a wrong turn? Maybe ifyou could divorce yourself from your tightly held "belief" system--your future canines may be able to benefit--and isn't that what we truly wish to achieve--healthier, happier, more canine and human friendly dogs?


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## RocketDog

You used the phraseology "if you ask--politely" which infers I was somehow rude. Here is your original post and my original response:

Beginning:
 Quote:
Originally Posted by *2GSDmom*  
_Not ever, again. If I ever have another dog sterilized it will be by tubal ligation or vasectomy. I will never again be responsible for screwing up the natural hormonal structure regulating the growth, endecrine system and mental maturation of one more dog. I will never again mutilate a dog on the altar of Responsiblity. These dogs are not just living less heathy lives and growing abnormally, speutering upsets their social structure---the very attribute that makes dogs valuable to humans. They are sexual beings, just like us, and they are confused when we mess with it. This leads to behaviorial and aggression issues. *There's a lot of misinformation and just plain mistruths concerning this. For instance, spayed females are the Most aggressive dogs--not intact males. Males who mark in your house don't have too much testosterone, they have too little or ineffective training. Males neutered before puberty exhibit more aggression, not less, are inclined to mount more than intact males and are harder to train (poor attention spans).* In other words, they never grow up. Not that big of a deal with a toy breed, but a full grown GSD acting and thinking like a puppy? I call that a real bad idea. No wonder we're having more and more behavioral problems with dogs. I say, "Be Humane--Sterilize--Don't Neuter"._

Information, studies, links to back this up? 

On a side note, in my old neighborhood there were plenty of dogs. We used to go down to the end of the street, in the cul-de-sac and have bonfire parties, where the dogs would play off leash. There were 3 Goldens, 2 yellow Labs (one mine) and a mix and a GSD. The ONLY aggressive dog, was my friends UNSPAYED GOLDEN, in fact, the only unaltered dog in the group. And she was also the most annoying. Not because she was untrained, either. 

End


The bolded areas of YOUR post don't sound like opinion. You are presenting them as FACT. You use the words "ARE", "HAVE"...you say things like "they never grow up", "they are sexual being just like us and they are confused when we mess with it". You don't state _this is your opinion and your opinion only. _BTW, how do you know they are "confused"?
If you're going to state things as such, of course links and PROOF are going to be required. My response was no more fact than YOURS WAS. Nothing about your post says "This is MY OPINION ONLY". 

Oh, and forget about answering my question. I have no more to say to you.


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## Jessiewessie99

2GSDmom said:


> First, thank you, Emoore, for picking up my slack--I do appreciate it.
> 
> RocketDog---I have spent months and have amassed reams of info--which specific links, on which research? I implied your demand (not request) was unfocused, combative and hippocritical---I never used the word rude(that was you)--Freudian Slip, perhaps? I resented the implication that my opinion must be validated by FACTS(again, your word, not mine--I had merely made reference to research being done--I didn't volunteer to provide it) but that yours(opinion) did not(require FACTS). If you are unable to see the inherent double standard in play, I can't help you.
> 
> I'm not hormonal anymore(but thank you for the lovely thought concerning the wine)--nor is hysterectomy near the age of menapause equivilent to _neutering prior to or shortly after puberty._ I'm assuming, I think fairly safely since you are the product, that your mother, not only reached sexual and physical maturity, but managed to enjoy most of its benefits. How does this bear on the importance of hormones on a canine's physical, mental and social development?
> 
> Jessiewessie99--How could you know?--do you have special powers? I know MY sense of smell positvely sucks compared to my dogs'. I can't _smell_ a person's gender--but dogs can--so it stands to reason they can also detect the Lack of hormones(after all, they can smell cancer cells and the chemical changes before seizures--can you?) Ask yourself why you are objecting so strenuously to the implication that we _might_ have taken a wrong turn? Maybe ifyou could divorce yourself from your tightly held "belief" system--your future canines may be able to benefit--and isn't that what we truly wish to achieve--healthier, happier, more canine and human friendly dogs?



Wow condescending much?Um, yeah, my dogs can smell better than me. What does that have to do with anything? Of course I can't smell a person's gender. Yes they can detect seizures, and detect seizures, and no I cannot nor did implement that I did. I still don't see how neutering effects that, because there are many altered dogs that are service dogs for people with those medical issues. What wrong turn? My dogs are canine and human friendly. If they don't like another animal or human they I don't blame on spaying on neutering. That is really absurd thinking.

My last 2 dogs were spayed and neutered, both lived happy, healthy, lives, loved us unconditionally, as we did them. 

No I don't have super powers, and I don't compare humans to dogs as it seems you are doing in your post. Dogs could careless if they had their reproductive organs, they could careless if they reproduce or not. I still don't see any point in your argument but to insult those who do alter their pets and think they are wrong for doing so.For me altering is healthier and never had an issue with it and I also volunteer with a shelter and rescue. If others wish to not alter there pets, I will respect that decision, as it is a personal decision.


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## msvette2u

2GSDmom said:


> For me, the answer is an emphatic *YES*. I will sterilize, but not neuter, unless medically necessary.


** comment removed by Admin**


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## sparra

Emoore said:


> Here's the thing:
> 
> When it was practiced, human castratos had a defined and recognized set of characteristics: unusually long arms and legs, unusually long rib bones, effeminate faces, lack of facial hair, and high-pitched voices. You could definitely tell an adult man from an adult castrato.
> 
> Anyone who knows horses can tell a horse that was gelded young from a horse that was gelded after maturity from a mile away. Same thing with steers and bulls. Anybody who knows anything about cattle can tell a steer from a bull.
> 
> Why are dogs different?  Honest question.


I agree.....my opinion is they are no different.

Horses and cows are the classic example of the difference in physical characteristics between castrated and not castrated but take a look at CATS......their is a HUGE difference in the look of a Tom and a castrated male cat. Toms have huge heads and tend to be stocky and very muscular. Dogs are no different.....of course it changes their look but WHO CARES. If you are not concerned about that and choose to castrate young that's great.....if you prefer your dog to look more masculine then it makes perfect sense to wait and then do it.
Every animal that is routinely castrated shows a lot of difference in physical appearance to its entire friends.....fact of life....dogs are no different IMO.


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## lhczth

*If there are any more personal attacks on this thread the offending parties will be suspended for 1 week's time. This is a WARNING and those to whom this applies know darn well who I am talking to. I will also not accept any "I didn't see your post" excuses.

You may argue ideas, but you will not attack one another.

Thank you,


**ADMIN Lisa*

************


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## Emoore

I'm gonna come right out and say it: I paid good money for a heavy-boned, blockheaded, built-like-a-tank East German male dog because that's what I want. I'm not going to neuter him young and take the chance that he'll end up looking tall or bitchy and regret what I did. I'm going to leave him intact until 18 months _minimum._ And I'll be incredibly diligent about making sure he doesn't cause any pregnancies. 

If that's not you, if you have a different set of priorities, more power to you. If you don't believe neutering will change their looks, or if not having to deal with an intact dog is more important to you, great! We can still be freinds. :laugh:


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## NancyJ

RocketDog said:


> Also, if your line of thinking is correct, to extrapolate, then all women with complete hysterectomies are somehow "different" than the rest of us. Interesting. I'll have to tell my mom, who had one at the age of 54 and really has had no problems, (who is now 73 and had in fact less issues than some of her friends who did not and went through menopause). I'm sure she'll find it "amusing".


Actually I went through surgical menopause (ovario-hysterectomy as opposed to hysterectomy) at the age of 42 and do have concerns. There are some studies out there showing a shortened life span for women who have gone through this procedure. Once again though, without a smoking gun, you have correlation not causation.

My issue with the militant everyone should spay and neuter group is that folks are often made to feel like they are compromising the dogs health when in fact, it may be remaining intact is healthier. Also they do need to be aware of different temperaments due to impact of hormones on mental and social development as well a growth plates etc. Then you add the implications of owning an intact dogs and how diligent you must be when you own one. All I think is people need valid pros and cons and not be scared into it


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## RocketDog

Jocoyn, I think you are right to have some concerns regarding that. I wish you the best. 

I agree it is an individual decision, often dependent on not just the dog, but the circumstances of that dog's life. It's difficult when people are so extreme to disern the actual truth of the matter. I do not want to feel like I'm judged a terrible owner which ever way I decide. Then again, I guess I really don't care, since it's my life and my animal, and I will have to deal with the repercussions.


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## selzer

jocoyn said:


> Actually I went through surgical menopause (ovario-hysterectomy as opposed to hysterectomy) at the age of 42 and do have concerns. There are some studies out there showing a shortened life span for women who have gone through this procedure. Once again though, without a smoking gun, you have correlation not causation.
> 
> My issue with the militant everyone should spay and neuter group is that folks are often made to feel like they are compromising the dogs health when in fact, it may be remaining intact is healthier. Also they do need to be aware of different temperaments due to impact of hormones on mental and social development as well a growth plates etc. Then you add the implications of owning an intact dogs and how diligent you must be when you own one. All I think is people need valid pros and cons and not be scared into it


:thumbup: Excellent post. Sorry you are having issues though.


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## RocketDog

I do want to add this about Jocoyn's post though:

_"My issue with the militant everyone should spay and neuter group is that folks are often made to feel like they are compromising the dogs health when in fact, it may be remaining intact is healthier_."

This could also be said of the militant "everyone should NOT spay and neuter" group.


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## Pepper311

sparra said:


> I agree.....my opinion is they are no different.
> 
> Horses and cows are the classic example of the difference in physical characteristics between castrated and not castrated but take a look at CATS......their is a HUGE difference in the look of a Tom and a castrated male cat. Toms have huge heads and tend to be stocky and very muscular. Dogs are no different.....of course it changes their look but WHO CARES. If you are not concerned about that and choose to castrate young that's great.....if you prefer your dog to look more masculine then it makes perfect sense to wait and then do it.
> Every animal that is routinely castrated shows a lot of difference in physical appearance to its entire friends.....fact of life....dogs are no different IMO.


 I am all for getting pets fixed because there are too many unwanted dogs. I would hate to add to that. That's my main reason for fixing pets. I don't want to risk a unwanted litter or have a dog abortion. 

I got my cat neutered early at like 4 months right when his balls dropped they were gone. He was always a very long lean cat. He never got that big fat head. He never out grew being a kitten and I loved it. I do think early neutering can cause slow development or might even stunt some development. I just got my female gsd mix fixed at 7.5 months right before her first heat. I thought about waiting but having a 3 year old daughter and a dog in heat was not something I wanted to deal with. Being almost 8 months I thought was a good age. 

My first dog that I got fixed 15 years ago. She was in heat when she got spayed. I think that is a bad idea. She had spay incontinence at the age of 6 years. Not sure there is a link but I don't think it helped.

In a perfect world the dog population would not be out of control and all dog owners would be responsible. There would be no need to fixed your dog. BUT this is a far from perfect world and for me getting my dogs fixed makes the most seances.


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## Draugr

RocketDog said:


> I do want to add this about Jocoyn's post though:
> 
> _"My issue with the militant everyone should spay and neuter group is that folks are often made to feel like they are compromising the dogs health when in fact, it may be remaining intact is healthier_."
> 
> This could also be said of the militant "everyone should NOT spay and neuter" group.


I haven't seen anybody in that "camp," however, attempting to pass laws requiring everyone to leave their dogs intact, much less actually succeeding in getting them passed. Or even just supporting the idea of a law like that.

The level of "militancy" is completely different.


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## iBaman

All my pets have been spayed/neutered at early ages. For the cats, it was spay/delcaw (mom's choice, not mine) by 4 months. Duke (our pit) was neutered at 6 months, and he def looks like a boy. Sheldon was done at four months (literally days after his balls dropped...partially due to a law in nevada requiring a neuter by 4 months or you get fined). He still looks very masculine, especially for his age. I've never had any problems with my pets being done so early.


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## Emoore

iBaman said:


> Duke (our pit) was neutered at 6 months, and he def looks like a boy.


Dude, girl Pits look like boys.


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## msvette2u

Fanciers of the breed can see secondary sex characteristics just like in any breed


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## RocketDog

I'm kinda interested in pictures of the difference. But really, how you would know whether it was just breeding/conformation or the effect of the speuter?


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## mysweetkaos

Emoore said:


> Dude, girl Pits look like boys.


yeah they do...same with bulldogs! Do you think Kaos has a bitchy head? He was done early...didn't know any different. I just can't imagine how big his head would be if not


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## iBaman

Emoore said:


> Dude, girl Pits look like boys.


Lmao, I guess so. Doesn't make them any less adorable <3 =]


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## Jessiewessie99

I find seen some rather "girly" pits. I was able to tell the boys from the girls.


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## iBaman

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I find seen some rather "girly" pits. I was able to tell the boys from the girls.


Same. On most occasions, I can tell the difference. Muscles shouldn't always mean manly =P


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## Pepper311

I found a great read on this topic. 

Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete


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## Jessiewessie99

iBaman said:


> Same. On most occasions, I can tell the difference. Muscles shouldn't always mean manly =P


Yep. The American Pitbull Terrier is supposed to be a medium sized lean and muscular breed.


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## mjbgsd

I neutuered Cody at 8 months and Isa around 14m?. When I got Akbar I had mixed feelings. Cody was N too young and so forth has had the look of a female since and Isa had perfect heats, never messy and always cleaned herself but I decided to have her spayed anyways. After some debating I had decided that I don't need to N Akbar ever unless he gets testicular cancer. It's just natural to keep him intact.


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## BrandiB

Kittilicious said:


> I had a Pomeranian that was neutered at 8 months and his marking in the house, outside the house, on beach towels/coolers at the lake, ever car tire, tree, telephone pole, flower... need I go on? He drove me NUTS! I told my hubby that obviously fixing a male doesn't cure that!


 

I hate to hear that. I have a 2 year old Pom that is marking like crazy. I think we are going to try getting him neutered anyways though. I hope it works on him!


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## msvette2u

After age 2 it might not fix that, but it cannot hurt


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## msvette2u

Pepper311 said:


> I found a great read on this topic.
> 
> Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete


That study is fairly inaccurate.

Here's the explanation and rebuttal.
http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal .pdf


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## Draugr

msvette2u said:


> That study is fairly inaccurate.
> 
> Here's the explanation and rebuttal.
> http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal%20.pdf


This rebuttal is more than fairly inaccurate.

Here is my assessment, a couple specific points, and a few links so you can see what kind of person wrote that rebuttal.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/172560-best-age-spay-neuter-3.html#post2335448

Hint, they are not exactly an objective source of information. She is a huge advocate for the long term safety of pediatric speuters - something veterinary science is showing more and more each day is really not the case at all. I wouldn't exactly call it "unsafe" but it certainly isn't safer in a relative sense. People like her just need to stick to the real facts - that it can help reduce shelter euthanasia rates when used on at-risk populations of animals.

Kind of hard to trust anything she says with such major glaring flaws in an article she wrote that is attempting to "set the facts straight" and is riddled with broad, sweeping, often inaccurate generalizations.

ETA: And that's not to the defense of Dr. Zink's article, which, as far as I'm concerned, is almost equally invalid.


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## Pandora

*Spaying and neutering*

I haven't read through all these many posts, but did view the results of the poll. As a 65 yr. old who has had many dogs throughout my life, most of them rescues, I just want to put in my two cents.
Sparing your dog the turbulence and turmoil of integrating hormones is a great kindness. "Fixing" your dog so he/she cannot breed and does not think about breeding allows your dog to focus on being your companion, on being a good dog, on other activities like guarding your home, your livestock, your garden, being an assistant, learning new things daily. Being spayed and neutered FREES your dog, helps your dog stay healthier, saves you much anxiety and concern.
A male dog separated from his testicles does not become a useless wimp. On the contrary, he becomes a better companion, more trustworthy and reliable.


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## gsdlover91

I plan on neutering my pup between 6-12 months old. He is just about 7 months old now.


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## Lady Jenna

Here's my two cents, and take it for what it is; just my opinion. For those who emphatically refuse to neuter your males, have you ever considered that unaltered dogs like yours are the reason there are so many GSD crosses? Can you guarantee that your dog will _never_ cause an unwanted litter? I'm not saying don't wait until they are mature; I'm saying be responsible. If you don't plan to breed, why keep them intact?


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## selzer

Lady Jenna said:


> Here's my two cents, and take it for what it is; just my opinion. For those who emphatically refuse to neuter your males, have you ever considered that unaltered dogs like yours are the reason there are so many GSD crosses? *Can you guarantee that your dog will never cause an unwanted litter?* I'm not saying don't wait until they are mature; I'm saying be responsible. If you don't plan to breed, why keep them intact?


Yes, I can. 

Being responsible is keeping them contained so that they do not cause an unplanned litter of puppies. 

I keep them intact because I feel it is healthier for them.


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## Cheyanna

*Guarantee*



Lady Jenna said:


> Here's my two cents, and take it for what it is; just my opinion. For those who emphatically refuse to neuter your males, have you ever considered that unaltered dogs like yours are the reason there are so many GSD crosses? Can you guarantee that your dog will _never_ cause an unwanted litter? I'm not saying don't wait until they are mature; I'm saying be responsible. If you don't plan to breed, why keep them intact?


I guarantee you that Fiona will NEVER have an unplanned litter. 
I have not decided to breed or not breed, because she is not yet a year old. But even if I would not breed, I would not take her parts out. God put it there and I am not taking it out until medically necessary. 

If a woman never intended to have kids, would we give her a hysterectomy? No. There is not elective hysterectomies.


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## Draugr

Lady Jenna said:


> Can you guarantee that your dog will _never_ cause an unwanted litter?


Yes.


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## Arlene/Archer

Draugr said:


> Yes.


Me too. My intact male (15 months)goes nowhere without my say so. It's part of being a responsible owner.
Anecdotally, Archer runs out with a pack 4/5 days a week in the early mornings, there could be up to 5 GSDs in the pack depending on who is out. He is the ONLY intact male in thr group apart from one older lab, due in no small part to a campaign in this country to spay and neuter at an early age, and I can attest that not only does he look blockier, with a heavier more masculine face, he also has a better coat- less 'woolly' than those of his brethern who are neutered. Again, I am telling this anecdotally, not saying it is because of his intact-ness, but it is interesting (to me).


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## Jordan1017

The soonest unless medically necessary would be 2 years old. When we brought our girl in to our vet, she was happy to hear we would not fix her until at least then if at all. In fact they will not fix any pets until at least 6months old, and stress females should go through at least one heat cycle. More health benefits to leaving them intact vs altered imo. But, it's to each their own.


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## Msmaria

My male rescue was neutered at one and a half years old by rescue. I do have to neuter my gsd sometime, however vet does not neuter until at least 6 months old. I will prob neuter him before my old female goes into heat again in September. So he may be around 7 or 8 months. for the record my 13 year female has never been bred.


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## MadLab

I'm thinking the less tinkering with a dogs insides the better in the long run. 



> (Spaying/Neutering).....helps your dog stay healthier


I don't think there is any proof that spaying/neutering does make a dog 'healthier'. It might be true, I'd like to see a study on it.

After having a female(not gsd) go through 4 heats with 2 intact males in the house has been an interesting journey with my dogs. I've found heat cycle gives me more control as there are disputes to settle and the dogs really need to be in the right frame of mind or fights can easily break out. It is in breeding time that pack theories really begin to make more sense. 

I also see different changes in my females temperament after heats. She just gets more and more easy going. She was a problem pup but now is a stable dog. I think heats play a part in balancing a females hormones as she grows. After the 3rd heat the dog is basically an adult in my eyes. If i were gonna ever spay i'd wait till then at least.


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## AngVi

Wow so many opinions...I have a boy 7 months old and still have no idea when to bring him in..
Everyone tells you something different. So for the time being I think we'll just wait 


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## Debbieg

I can't find the right answer. I do not spay or neuter, but can't say never, because I will for health reasons. 
Benny had one retained testicle and for health reason I had only the retained one removed and the other left intact. 

I had to drive several towns away to find a vet( also a breeder) who whole heartedly supported my decisions


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## DJGinger

No right answer . I didnt select any. "never" is a real long time and very arbitrary. 
I certainly would wait til the animal had finished maturing. I never worry about puppies unless I want a litter. Except for my coyote mix getting loose, when I was a 8 yr old kid, and getting her self with a litter from the Collie/Shepherd dog on other side of wall she scaled; I have never had a pet have unplanned offspring of mixed or pure. My pets have always been indoor except that wiley girl who needed her outside time. Had mixed genders living in. But when I bred Persians I would spay animals with health defects, retiring or radically off in conformation slated for happy pet life. Especially since I was specialty color breeding some older lines that had terrible inbreeding in some individuals.


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## AngVi

I am sooo very confused reading all the posts. My girl just turned one and we took her in at 6 months. We have a 7month old male and not sure when to take him...3 different breeders have told me to wait until minimum of one year preferably older. My vet said to take him now, 


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## selzer

AngVi said:


> I am sooo very confused reading all the posts. My girl just turned one and we took her in at 6 months. We have a 7month old male and not sure when to take him...3 different breeders have told me to wait until minimum of one year preferably older. My vet said to take him now,
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If the bitch is spayed, why hurry on neutering the dog? Have you asked the vet why he feels the dog should be neutered before he has finished growing?


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## DellaWrangler

I don't claim to be an expert of any kind. Below are a couple of excerpts from research I've done on the subject for my own GSD education that might be useful.

A retrospective study published in 1999 by Ware, _et al._, found a five times greater risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma in spayed vs. intact female dogs and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs as compared to intact males.

And below, from the latest issue of "Veterinary Practice News":

We need to re-examine the common belief that neutering dogs helps reduce prostate cancer. In fact, Obradovich, et al, in 1987 reported that neutering provides no benefit in protecting dogs from prostate cancer. Neutering definitely offers protection from recurrence of androgen hormone dependant perianal tumors.

Clear epidemiological evidence exists that female sex hormones cause mammary cancer. There is a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer in female dogs allowed to endure one heat cycle and the risk is increased with each additional estrus until the dog is 21⁄2 years old. 
In dogs, 30 to 50 percent of mammary tumors are malignant. In cats, the rate of malignancy is 95 to 98 percent. Therefore, all mammary tumors in dogs and especially in cats should be surgically removed and biopsied as soon as they are detected. Early detection and excision can improve the prognosis. 



It is well known that the incidence of urinary incontinence in early-spayed female dogs is higher than in non-spayed female dogs. This is due to the role that ovarian hormones play in the maintenance of genital tissues and urogenital contractility. 



Aron, et al, in 1996, reported that male dogs neutered early had an increased risk of developing urethral sphincter incontinence. A health survey of several thousand dogs by the Golden Retriever Club of America showed that spayed or neutered dogs had a greater risk of hypothyroidism. In 2001, Howe and Slater reported an increase of infectious diseases in dogs spayed or neutered at or before 24 weeks of age versus over 24 weeks of age. The 2005 AKC-Canine Health Foundation reported a higher incidence of vaccines reactions in neutered dogs as compared to intact dogs.


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## Shaolin

I don't see a reason to neuter males. I know this is probably pure coincidence and nothing else, but the neutered males I know have the one big issue of humping. The only neutered male I had humped EVERYTHING. If it was still, he humped it with pure abandon. My friends who have neutered males have the same problem along with what seems like more hard-headedness. 

Females on the other hand...I feel that females should be spayed after their first or second heat unless they are potential breeding stock. I felt horrible when Abi went into heat; all the male dogs in the neighborhood would go nuts when walking past the house...neutered or un-neutered. 

I don't agree with early speuter...to me, 12-18 months for any gender is more appropriate unless there's a medical problem.


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## LisaKinVA

At this point, we don't plan to spay Kiina. I've had an in-tact female (Cocker) before and zero un-planned litters (She was bred though...once...9 puppies...the vet and I initially planned for 3 litters over several years, but we moved away). Kiina comes from a solid German line of dogs (Koer Class 1 parentage...bought her in Germany), but no decisions until she completes training and health requirements are met. Our breed warden loves her...we have heat management plans in place, and after 5 children, I can honestly say NOTHING is messier than THOSE! (haha)


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## belladonnalily

Neutering hasn't stopped my husband from marking in the yard  He also has a whole host of other obnoxious behaviors it hasn't fixed. Then again, we probably didn't do it early enough...we have 3 teenage daughters (really kidding there...I have great girls  ).

I've been trying to rehome him for years but I can't find anyone to take him...then again who wants a grumpy overweight male that bites without provocation?

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## LaRen616

Draco won't be neutered until he is 18 months old, I would have prefered to wait until he is 24 months old but he only one of his balls dropped and the other is stuck in his abdomen. The Vet said I can wait until he's 18 months but then I need to neuter him.


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## FirefighterGSD

I'm neutering Arson the first week of April (18 weeks). I'm very pro spay/neuter unless you're a seasoned reputable breeder. I'd have him done already but he still needs his last set of boosters which is March 30th. Certainly a hot topic in which everyone has an opinion


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## Curtis

I don't plan to neuter. 

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## Phantom

I voted over 2 years. This is my first dog, and she is only 11 months old, but that is what I'm planning on doing.


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## Tide vom Nobles

My breeder told me IF I was going to neuter my male to wait until he was at least three years of age. "Don't do a thing to him until he is three" is what Debbie said!!


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## Splashstorm

I think dogs are healthier if they are altered in a way that retains their sex hormones without the risk of reproduction. So vasectomies and ovary-sparing spays all the way.


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