# School Denies Student's Service Dog (GSD)



## Hansel & Gretel

This is in my local county school system. Fairfax County Public Schools operates on an annual budget of over a billion dollars (that's billion). I think they are wrong denying the boy his service dog.











Fairfax School Denies Student's Service Dog


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## DJEtzel

I would like to see said requirements, but this does not surprise me. This topic has been a heated controversy for a while now and at this time, I've got to agree with the schools in most cases. 

My bet is that the requirements she doesn't meet are being under a certain height/weight and breed.

eta; Why do you feel they are wrong denying him the service dog? Do you think it is right to deny other students an education that are allergic or terrified of dogs? There are so many pros and cons to the argument it's rediculous. I don't see the schools changing their minds anytime soon.


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## Hansel & Gretel

I think it's wrong because of Federal Law. The ADA specifically forbids this type of Service Dog ban. They are ignoring the law here.

John


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## Hansel & Gretel

Here: Commonly Asked Questions About Service Animals in Places of Business


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## Hansel & Gretel

*6. Q: My county health department has told me that only a guide dog has to be admitted. If I follow those regulations, am I violating the ADA?
*
A: Yes, if you refuse to admit any other type of service animal on the basis of local health department regulations or other state or local laws. The ADA provides greater protection for individuals with disabilities and so it takes priority over the local or state laws or regulations.

Seems pretty clear to me


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## Zoeys mom

I saw this on the news last night and was saddened to see that boy in a regular school anyway. He is 12 and reads maybe on a first grade level, has been home schooled by mom his whole life, and has severe seizures multiple times a day not controlled by medication. He needs to be in a special setting as it is where he can get one on one attention not be jammed in a classroom with 20-25 other students. 

I know last year there was a service dog at my daughters school- a pug mix named bella. I don't know what her purpose was, but she was the sweetest dog ever. However, in a grade school setting she was a huge distraction- kids don't get not to touch and talk to the service dog, and teachers don't have the time to constantly interrupt classroom time to ensure these rules are being met. There were also children with dog allergies and phobias so Bella did not return this year 

I don't want to sound mean because I have a special needs son, but parents can't expect a regular curriculum and classroom setting to meet their special children's needs. They have programs for children like this boy where he would be better served and have an easier time incorporating his dog.

On a side note I think it is very cool the way this dog is used. The boy has a gadget similar to a pace maker in his chest and the dog a magnetic fixture on her collar. When the dog senses the boy is going to have a seizure she places her head on his activating the pace maker and stopping the seizure. I know this boy needs this dog but I don't think it's fair to take away class time, expose children to allergy attacks, or fear because of one child. Fairfax needs to work with his mom either providing a private school setting for him or offering her in home support for his educational needs. There are other options this mom is either ignorant to, or just ignoring


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## paulag1955

DJEtzel said:


> I would like to see said requirements, but this does not surprise me. This topic has been a heated controversy for a while now and at this time, I've got to agree with the schools in most cases.
> 
> My bet is that the requirements she doesn't meet are being under a certain height/weight and breed.
> 
> eta; Why do you feel they are wrong denying him the service dog? Do you think it is right to deny other students an education that are allergic or terrified of dogs? There are so many pros and cons to the argument it's rediculous. I don't see the schools changing their minds anytime soon.


If this were a guide dog for a blind child, do you think another child's allergy should be allowed to take precedence?


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## Hansel & Gretel

I think it is important to note that he is not in a regular classroom. He is in a special needs program and it has 5-6 students and 3 teachers in the room. Not exactly a regular setting.


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## DJEtzel

Hansel & Gretel said:


> Here: Commonly Asked Questions About Service Animals in Places of Business


These are places of business though. The dog can interfere with a child's right to education in a school.



paulag1955 said:


> If this were a guide dog for a blind child, do you think another child's allergy should be allowed to take precedence?


Yes. As American's we have the right to education and that shouldn't be infringed upon by a service animal of any sort. 1 child's dog should not be above a classroom full of students having reactions and being allergic. 

There are also other common arguement like the fact that THAT boy could NOT control that dog if he needed to and the school shouldn't be responsible. THAT child can not give the dog adequate water and potty breaks while school. And so on and so forth.


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## Hansel & Gretel

The ADA law states (in so many words) that a service dog trumps someones allergies.


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## Hansel & Gretel

Schools are required to follow ADA as well. Nothing in the general public sector is exempt


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## Hansel & Gretel

DJ, the law is the law. ADA, like it or not, is the law of the land


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## DJEtzel

Hansel & Gretel said:


> The ADA law states (in so many words) that a service dog trumps someones allergies.


Well, it may trump allergies, but not someone's rights. I know children that would not be able to go to school if that dog was in their classroom.



Hansel & Gretel said:


> DJ, the law is the law. ADA, like it or not, is the law of the land


Hansel, if that were true, this wouldn't be going on all over the country and it wouldn't be an issue.


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## Hansel & Gretel

DJ, you can google ADA service dog law and read the same thing I read. It IS the law and Fairfax is really pretty far out on a limb here twisting in the wind trying to justify this. I will bet you they change course here in a few weeks.


John


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## Stevenzachsmom

Hate to tell you, but even though the ADA was signed into law 20 years ago - our public schools are still not handicap accessible. Older schools in my area are multi-level and have no elevators. My son has a disability and I have to fight tooth and nail for anything the school does for him. I need to prove there is a need for anything I request. I need a doctor to write a letter. Ever try to get a doctor to write a letter - or even find a doctor who knows as much about your child's condition as you do? I get them their proof, but it is all on me. 

Would my sons' school allow him to have a dog? HA! That's a joke. He would have graduated before I could work that one out.


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## Hansel & Gretel

The difference here is the ruling doesn't require anything. No money, no elevators, no special construction...just compliance with the law.


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## selzer

Frankly, I think a school system would possibly be putting students at risk if they let every individual who claims their kids' pet is a service dog. 

The ADA does not require the dog to have any special training or that the individual be questioned on what service the dog provides, the dogs training, etc. Something about how people have a right to privacy, etc, etc, etc.

So the way you want it, my five year old could take our pet Sassy to school with her every day. Sassy could wear a funky vest and snap and snarl at children as they file by her. That would be ok. 

My five year old tips the scale at 35 pounds, Sassy weighs 85 pounds. Sassy decides she does not like little boys who pop chewing gum and lunges at him. 

What then? Who is at fault? Who gets sued? 

The kid in this story is a special needs kid. What level of understanding is this kid capable of. If kids are kids and do something that angers the boy, does the boy have the mind set not to fight back and possibly get the dog involved. 12 year old boys sometimes get into altercations, even boys that do not have special needs. 

I think this is an accident waiting to happen. It sets a precedent. This kid is 12. The next kid may be eight, and the next five. Many of us would not leave our five year old with our dog unsupervised. We certainly would not send a five year old down the street to walk the dog. So why should the schools provide someone to babysit your kid's dog?

Children with special needs are nothing new. Somehow we got all the way to the 21 century without sending the dog to school with the kid. A college class room would be a different story. That would be adults. 

If a kids hang up is fear, the child is frightened because he was a victim of a crime. The dog helps him function in the world, because he feels safer with the dog. I can see that happening. What about a gun. If the kid felt safer with a gun, should the school let a kid have a gun on him so he can feel safer and function better. 

Dogs that notify about siezures or heart conditions seem to be more of a question for me. I think it is beneficial to have these dogs with the kids. But maybe such kids need to be home schooled if they need to have the dog with them. I am sorry, but our public school system cannot be expected provide for any scenario.


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## Stevenzachsmom

My sons' needs require little or no financing either. I did not ask them to put in an elevator. I asked them to move all of his classes to the main level. I explained that a fall down the steps could kill him. School system still didn't care, so I threatened legal action and called in some bigwigs from the county. Finally, the school agreed to move my sons' classes. Oh - But I still needed that letter signed by the doctor saying that a fall down the steps could kill him.


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## Hansel & Gretel

selzer said:


> Frankly, I think a school system would possibly be putting students at risk if they let every individual who claims their kids' pet is a service dog.
> 
> The ADA does not require the dog to have any special training or that the individual be questioned on what service the dog provides, the dogs training, etc. Something about how people have a right to privacy, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> So the way you want it, my five year old could take our pet Sassy to school with her every day. Sassy could wear a funky vest and snap and snarl at children as they file by her. That would be ok.
> 
> My five year old tips the scale at 35 pounds, Sassy weighs 85 pounds. Sassy decides she does not like little boys who pop chewing gum and lunges at him.
> 
> What then? Who is at fault? Who gets sued?
> 
> The kid in this story is a special needs kid. What level of understanding is this kid capable of. If kids are kids and do something that angers the boy, does the boy have the mind set not to fight back and possibly get the dog involved. 12 year old boys sometimes get into altercations, even boys that do not have special needs.
> 
> I think this is an accident waiting to happen. It sets a precedent. This kid is 12. The next kid may be eight, and the next five. Many of us would not leave our five year old with our dog unsupervised. We certainly would not send a five year old down the street to walk the dog. So why should the schools provide someone to babysit your kid's dog?
> 
> Children with special needs are nothing new. Somehow we got all the way to the 21 century without sending the dog to school with the kid. A college class room would be a different story. That would be adults.
> 
> If a kids hang up is fear, the child is frightened because he was a victim of a crime. The dog helps him function in the world, because he feels safer with the dog. I can see that happening. What about a gun. If the kid felt safer with a gun, should the school let a kid have a gun on him so he can feel safer and function better.
> 
> Dogs that notify about siezures or heart conditions seem to be more of a question for me. I think it is beneficial to have these dogs with the kids. But maybe such kids need to be home schooled if they need to have the dog with them. I am sorry, but our public school system cannot be expected provide for any scenario.


I agree with you about the pet thing. I have seen a lot of people with "service dogs" that looked and acted like a pet. Believe me, I have rolled my eyes a few time.

But here, the family spent $20,000 on the dog and training and it is clearly a certified SD. They child even has a special device surgically implanted and the matching receiver on the dogs collar. (You should watch the video)

So it seems like more of an issue of the school ignoring the ADA law. You make some valid points but laws can't be ignored on that basis.

John


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## Zoeys mom

I have had to fight for my son's needs to be met as well....they don't make it easy, but with persistence it is possible. From the news report this child was not in a special classroom, but a regular classroom full of students. I may be wrong the media is not always accurate 

The argument the school system is using is the boy himself is not a certified handler. Now I don't know all the rules, but as this child can not button his own pants, stay still, or function in ways your average 4 year old can I kinda understand the schools stance. The boy can not control the dog on his own- so who will for him? The mom has to work, father seems to be out of the situation, and no a school can not afford to hire a certified handler- they can barely hire resource staff for special needs kids as it is.

I also think the allergy element is as important as this boy's needs. Allergies to pet dander can be deadly especially for children- is this not a special need as well? Where do you draw the line when one student requires something that impacts many more students around him? A dog is a distraction, a liability to the school system, and while trained and domesticated is still an animal that needs supervision. This is not a shopping mall or grocery store- this is the institution 100's of other parents rely on to educate their children; and an education is a right in our country last time I checked.

I'm all for human rights, but when they impact the right's of those around them in a setting other parents legally have to put their children in unless they home school I think we have to look at priorities here. No law can cover and please everyone- laws are for the majority of people who they will affect, and placing a dog into a classroom for one child is just too much to ask.


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## BadLieutenant

ADA must be applied for in most Cities. Its not some automatic law. You apply thru the Law Department and then they make a decision based on the law. You cant just decide one day that you think your son should be able to bring a service dog to school and claim ADA. I believe schools can make reasonable efforts such as providing a tutor to the student after denying him his ADA to bring a service dog to school. I am sure they had a dozen lawyers look at this before making their decision. Either way, its still sucks that this kid is afflicted with this. Hopefully the dog is bringing tons of joy to his life.


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## selzer

I think schools have to draw a line somewhere. If they are forced to let the dog in, what will they do? Put an x-pen around the kid's desk and make him travel the cooridores when the other kids are already in their classrooms? 

Do you remember what it was like to get through the halls of a jr sr high school? Jam packed with kids, yelling, swearing, running, punching, pushing, tripping. Lockers slamming, loud speaker singing, bells ringing. 

If you do not have all your books on you and walk as fast as possible through the barricade of human flesh, you will not make it to your next class in time. Can you imagine a dog not be jostled or stepped on or bothered in this scenario?

I would think in a special needs classroom, special needs would be considered and compensated for, but maybe the school does not feel equiped to manage the dog. If they are not it would be not good for all around if they allowed it.


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## Hansel & Gretel

I agree that whether or not he gets to take the dog to school, his quantity of life will be so much better because of that dog. Talk about a best friend.


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## Hansel & Gretel

selzer said:


> I think schools have to draw a line somewhere. If they are forced to let the dog in, what will they do? Put an x-pen around the kid's desk and make him travel the cooridores when the other kids are already in their classrooms?
> 
> Do you remember what it was like to get through the halls of a jr sr high school? Jam packed with kids, yelling, swearing, running, punching, pushing, tripping. Lockers slamming, loud speaker singing, bells ringing.
> 
> If you do not have all your books on you and walk as fast as possible through the barricade of human flesh, you will not make it to your next class in time. Can you imagine a dog not be jostled or stepped on or bothered in this scenario?
> 
> I would think in a special needs classroom, special needs would be considered and compensated for, but maybe the school does not feel equiped to manage the dog. If they are not it would be not good for all around if they allowed it.


You should do a little more reading. The county HAS allowed Service Dogs in school before. That isn't the issue. It is his particular handicap that seems to be the issue.


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## Hansel & Gretel

This was posted by the kids Dad in a local forum and I thought I would repost it here:

Posted by: * Angelo Steven * ()
Date: December 22, 2010 11:09PM

Everyone has provided tremendous support, thank you very much. 

The idea of sueing was not a light choice it is not my intention to place the burden of what this will cost on the citizens of VA, not to mention in these trying times. 

I see also concerns about the canines fears, Biting, Allergies etc, while their is never any perfect solution, there is no evidence of a service dog attacking anyone, other then in a protective stance, and even that was an extreme case, examples of this are police dogs (yes that is a service dog) trained in defense and attack a way different form of training then say a seizure dog or mobility dog. 

Very few places train seizure dogs, why because 1 of 1000 dogs may make the cut, between the emotional aspect of the dog to the pedigree of its line, to the few years of training it requires before ever being placed with its new owner and partner. 

These aren't Pet Smart Dogs, their highly trained in obediancne, Not sit stay beg come, but specific 

Alaya Andrews dog is trained in mostly German commands this doe 2 things greater bond between owner and dog, less chance of someone trying to give commands to the dog, more intense obediance and training objectives. 

My goal as a parent, keep my child alive and safe for as long as he lives, I love my son, I will do anything legal to make sure he has the same chance as anyone else. 

Do you know how hard it is to tell your child hes not allowed to play football with his little buddies in the park, or that he can't go to the store like most normal 12 year olds, its hard as **** and I often tear up about it, its not easy being different. 

I can never say Alaya will never bite someone, no one can say that about ANY animal, I can say its HIGHLY unlikely, why because her training (Bare in mind Alayas 5 and trained for 5 Years from a puppy for eventual service dog future) the last 1 year was geared towards LGS service dog for Seizures because of what Andrew needs Alaya IS the first reported LGS Service dog but not the first Seizure Dog, if you read more about LGS you will understand more about why this dog had to be trained differently then the typical seizure dog. 

I understand everyones fears, just as much as those that support us don't understand why the dog is not allowed, the difference is education, the supporters of the service dog are educated on service dogs, some in seizure disorders, and some have gone to my sons website and learned even more. 

Educating the public on Epilepsy, and their forms is the only defense to prevent future discrimmination of people with epilepsy, its the first and only way to change the future. 

There is far more information on Andrew that the school has that is not being released to the public, but for the record he DOES have a life threatining illness with LGS, he does have a prescription for the dog, and his doctor clearly in a statement says just that. 

Again if you would like to learn more, or for that matter help other Soldiers familes obtain service dogs please visit Andrews site at theandrewgordonstevensfoundation.org


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## Hansel & Gretel

Check out his link, I think it might change some minds

http://www.theandrewgordonstevensfoundation.org/default.html


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## Zoeys mom

It's because his handicap makes it impossible for him to CONTROL the dog which is kinda important right? Should the county be liable is something happens to the kids, dog, or other school children? Should children with allergies and/or phobias have to find a new school which by the way is hard if your not a resident of that school district? This child has found other means for the last 12 years it's really not about his right at this point. No one has the right to inflect asthma, breathing trouble, sneezing, itchy watery eyes, hives, runny nose, and even death on anyone else over a dog.

Accommodations for those with disabilities can not endanger those around them and an allergy attack is down right dangerous being on the same level with a seizure. This child needs to be privately schooled because of the severity of his impairment anyway- he really needs more help than just his service dog the report was sad honestly


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## Hansel & Gretel

So the kid has a doctors prescription for the service dog, waited 2 years to get it, the family spent $20,000 for the trained dog, the kid had surgery for the implant, Federal law forbids discrimination of service dogs, we live in one of the highest taxed areas in the county, the school system operates on a 1.1 billion dollar annual budget and you think they should just say fine, well pay out of pocket for a private teacher?

Really?


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## Hansel & Gretel

And how do the blind "control" their service dogs?


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## Zoeys mom

No actually VA has the same law MD has which states if they can not educate your child in a public school setting your child can go to a private school paid for by the county if a special education program can not be effective. So yes I think the parents should be looking into other options....really

Just because we buy something does not make it appropriate for use in all settings. My kids have bikes but they can't ride them inside along with the bow and arrows, bb guns, and balls. This dog alerts the boy and family to a seizure inside the home or while they are out and about- it is serving it's use in appropriate settings. Asking a school to ignore other children's allergies is just insane to me and rather selfish. They have to meet the needs of the majority of children in their school.

And yes I do believe a blind person can control their SD. You don't need eyes to command a dog you need strength, posture, and intellect. This boy is severely mentally impaired because of the damage his seizures have done and is not a reliable handler. Can he tell when his dog is stressed, needs to potty, or may snap? Who do you think should handle the dog in question and why do you feel allergies take a backseat to an SD when children can not chose to, or not to go to school?

Looking at the bigger picture it's obvious why an SD in a classroom setting is a tough accommodation- it's just too distracting and potentially dangerous


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## selzer

Last I heard they do not match up kids with seeing eye dogs. They wait until they are older. I think I heard of someone sixteen having one, but it was really rare. 

And blind kids requiring seeing eye dogs usually do not go to public schools. If the child's parent was blind, they could bring their seeing eye dog into the building to talk to the teacher.


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## Hansel & Gretel

Zoeys mom said:


> No actually VA has the same law MD has which states if they can not educate your child in a public school setting your child can go to a private school paid for by the county if a special education program can not be effective. So yes I think the parents should be looking into other options....really
> 
> Just because we buy something does not make it appropriate for use in all settings. My kids have bikes but they can't ride them inside along with the bow and arrows, bb guns, and balls. This dog alerts the boy and family to a seizure inside the home or while they are out and about- it is serving it's use in appropriate settings. Asking a school to ignore other children's allergies is just insane to me and rather selfish. They have to meet the needs of the majority of children in their school.
> 
> And yes I do believe a blind person can control their SD. You don't need eyes to command a dog you need strength, posture, and intellect. This boy is severely mentally impaired because of the damage his seizures have done and is not a reliable handler. Can he tell when his dog is stressed, needs to potty, or may snap? Who do you think should handle the dog in question and why do you feel allergies take a backseat to an SD when children can not chose to, or not to go to school?
> 
> Looking at the bigger picture it's obvious why an SD in a classroom setting is a tough accommodation- it's just too distracting and potentially dangerous


He is currently being educated in the school system.

And he is NOT severely mentally handicapped. He has a form of epilepsy

Fairfax already has a policy allowing SD in school. They are rejecting his dog on the basis of when he has a seizure, no one will be there to tend to the dog (which I am sure is trained to lay by his side). This is the crux of their argument. The other issues you raised ssem to have come out of thin air

The most important aspect to all of this is his seizures can be fatal. The dog can sense them before they happen and by mean of stimulating his implant, lessen the intensity of the seizures. 

I honestly though because Fairfax has so many mindless bureaucrats, they simply rejected his application because it wasn't a square peg going into a square hole.
You know, only blind kids are allowed to have service dogs


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## KZoppa

its honestly a sad situation all around. Obviously the dog is necessary. Obviously there are other factors in play as to why this particular SD was rejected IE allergies, fear reactions, ect. The list goes on and on. He is 12 years old. In the news report when he talks, you can obviously hear he has been mentally affected by his disease. Do i agree with the school in rejecting this SD, no. Do i think the parents need to look into the county paying for a specialty school with people who are not only able to handle a situation should it arise but also have experience in handling service dogs when the handler is unable such as in the event of a seizure and paramedics needing to be called. Yes i do believe they should look into a school for special needs kids. There is a fine line between disabilities. Some kids with disabilities need and should be in situations where people have more experience in dealing with something. public schools tend to cater to the majority of student needs and dont see much point in catering to the needs of one. There is only so much that can be done and they have to take into account the majority. Not to mention there are far too many kids AND adults who either never learned to respect the general rules of a service dog or refuse to respect them and most kids get so excited about animals, they would have trouble focusing anyway causing further issues. As i said. Its a sad situation all around.


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## kiwilrdg

> No actually VA has the same law MD has which states if they can not educate your child in a public school setting your child can go to a private school paid for by the county if a special education program can not be effective. So yes I think the parents should be looking into other options....really


A private school might be better in this case. Mainstreaming is a good thing in many cases but this one does not appear to be one of them. I think the parents could find a private school that would be better for the child than the public schools and use the state law to fund it. Sounds like a win-win situation.


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## Mrs.K

Wow, of all people I would have never thought that any of you would deny that boy bringing the dog to school. 

It's a seizure dog. Even if it was an adult. WHO would control the dog when he has an epilepsi stroke? Come on people, where is your common sense. Even adults that go through that can't control the dog while they are having an attack. Shouldn't they be allowed to bring the dog to work because of that? Or into a mall, bus or train?

COMMON SENSE! 

Are we going backwards here?


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## Mrs.K

Hansel & Gretel said:


> And how do the blind "control" their service dogs?


Exactly, they can't because they are blind. 


I don't know what is happening to this forum. Of all people we should be the most supportive ones and clearly... common sense went out the window... 

Nobody, not a blind or an epileptic person, whether adult or child can control the dog while they are going through an epileptic stroke. :hammer:


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## kiwilrdg

Under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act the parents should appeal this part of the childs Individualized Education Program.


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## Jax's Mom

When I was a kid, we had a kid in school with a similar dog. He had a service dog and an adult special ed teacher. He couldn't go out at recess with the other kids because of the dog but 2 kids got to stay in with him every recess and play with him and his dog. When it was lunch time, he had to eat in another room with the dog (health reasons I guess?) but again, 2 kids got to go with him.
He was a little slower than the rest of the kids but he was till made to feel as part of the class and probably part of society later.
A Candadian airline, WestJet will allow any pet on their flights. If someone has a fear or allergy to the pet, they get the option of choosing another seat or another flight at the cost of the airline. I imagine this could be done for kids afraid of dogs or allergic to them.
I think having a service dog is an excellent educational experience for both the disabled child and his classmates. I learned so many amazing things from that dog and also learned that people with disabilities are not to be pitied or felt sorry for, they can be just as inedpendant as any other person. This kid was perfectly normal in any other way, if he were isolated to a room with just him and his dog, I'm sure he would have grown up feeling like he wasn't welcome as a part of society due to his disability.


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## Jax's Mom

Mrs.K said:


> I don't know what is happening to this forum. Of all people we should be the most supportive ones and clearly... common sense went out the window...


I'm getting the impression that people are so frightened by the government that they've been conditioned to think that other people's stupidity will ultimately effect their rights to own dogs. Which it does, why? because we've allowed the government (in Canada as well) to bully us around, ban our dogs, terrorize us with never ending laws and law suits that beat us into submission.


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## BadLieutenant

Jax's Mom said:


> I'm getting the impression that people are so frightened by the government that they've been conditioned to think that other people's stupidity will ultimately effect their rights to own dogs. Which it does, why? because we've allowed the government (in Canada as well) to bully us around, ban our dogs, terrorize us with never ending laws and law suits that beat us into submission.


 
i tend to get the impression that you have a problem with authority.


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## Jax's Mom

BadLieutenant said:


> i tend to get the impression that you have a problem with authority.


Quite the opposite  I work in authority but really disappointed with the general public who don't know or exercise their rights and freedoms.
A society that is ignorant to their civil liberties is pretty much what has lead to the disappearance of the middle class. No one spoke up, their jobs and homes were trampled... then came the recession.
We have such great opportunities here in North America that people in some other countries couldn't even imagine and it's horrifying to see that people are just allowing it to slip away.
First we have rights, then we decide we don't care about them, then we lose them, then we revolt... it happened in every civilzation and it's a big waste of time and money and progress.


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## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> Quite the opposite  I work in authority but really disappointed with the general public who don't know or exercise their rights and freedoms.
> A society that is ignorant to their civil liberties is pretty much what has lead to the disappearance of the middle class. No one spoke up, their jobs and homes were trampled... then came the recession.
> We have such great opportunities here in North America that people in some other countries couldn't even imagine and it's horrifying to see that people are just allowing it to slip away.
> First we have rights,* then we decide we don't care about them*, then we lose them, then we revolt... it happened in every civilzation and it's a big waste of time and money and progress.


I think it's more because people are too comfortable and lazy and not because they don't care. It's more like the "Eh, somebody else will make it right..." kind of attitude that lead us where we are at right now. 

Same thing going on in Germany. People rather sit in front of the TV or play their Video Games instead of knowing whats going on outside their small little world.


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## DJEtzel

selzer said:


> Last I heard they do not match up kids with seeing eye dogs. They wait until they are older. I think I heard of someone sixteen having one, but it was really rare.
> 
> And blind kids requiring seeing eye dogs usually do not go to public schools. If the child's parent was blind, they could bring their seeing eye dog into the building to talk to the teacher.


Seeing eye dog is a brand. They won't give a dog to a child, they must be at least 18. I had a blind friend in high school that was on the waiting list for when he turned 18. You can purchase a guide dog from another organization or train one yourself though at any age. Whether or not the school will allow it is again, a completely different story. 

But blind kids needing dogs (what blind person couldn't find one useful?) go to public schools all the time. I have a relative and that friend that go to public schools just fine..


----------



## Liesje

kiwilrdg said:


> A private school might be better in this case. Mainstreaming is a good thing in many cases but this one does not appear to be one of them. I think the parents could find a private school that would be better for the child than the public schools and use the state law to fund it. Sounds like a win-win situation.


As a general rule, at least where I live, private schools are NOT the place to go for special ed. They do not receive the same funding from the gov't and thus have very little resources. My husband is a second grade teacher in a private school (and he actually has a degree in special ed but could not find a special ed position) and has a child that is supposedly being "mainstreamed" in his class and it's total chaos. The parents are footing the bill for a lot of things that a public school would cover. The public schools have much better special ed programs, more money, more resources. I grew up in private schools, dozens of my family members teach in private schools and we all agree that unless you are independently wealthy, you use the public schools for a special needs child if you want the best options available for your child. The private schools I have experience with here run about $7K per year, per child K-12 and these are just your run of the mill private schools (not hoity-toity exclusive schools). Having a special needs child often = many more costs b/c of doctors, therapists, specialists, medication, medical equipment, etc. Some of the private schools have special ed programs (or a special ed room, or just a part time special ed aid....) but most cases I'm familiar with the kid is better off in the public school program, or the parents just can't afford the cost of private schooling AND paying for their own aids.


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## Jax's Mom

Mrs.K said:


> I think it's more because people are too comfortable and lazy and not because they don't care. It's more like the "Eh, somebody else will make it right..." kind of attitude that lead us where we are at right now.
> 
> Same thing going on in Germany. People rather sit in front of the TV or play their Video Games instead of knowing whats going on outside their small little world.


It's one thing to be too lazy to do something but it's another to actually be of the opinion that a kid doesn't have the right to go to any school he'd like because he has a disability. We as human beings are willing to let this go because it's the law? We couldn't possibly modify or amend this law to regulate service dogs for the safety of the disabled person or the people around them?
If this were my kid's school, I'd pull them out because I wouldn't want them being taught that it's OK to just kick a 12 year old kid aside because he inconveniences others.


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## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> It's one thing to be too lazy to do something but it's another to actually be of the opinion that a kid doesn't have the right to go to any school he'd like because he has a disability. We as human beings are willing to let this go because it's the law? We couldn't possibly modify or amend this law to regulate service dogs for the safety of the disabled person or the people around them?
> If this were my kid's school, I'd pull them out because I wouldn't want them being taught that it's OK to just kick a 12 year old kid aside because he inconveniences others.


I absolutely agree with you. 

It's discrimination at it's best.


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## Liesje

kiwilrdg said:


> the parents should appeal this part of the childs Individualized Education Program.


This is what I was wondering....if the crux of the issue is what happens with the dog after the child has a seizure, can't this be sorted out in the IEP? Wouldn't that process and documentation lay out what to do in that scenario? Seems like the "duh" answer to me.... I'm not a parapro or special ed teacher but my husband is/has been both and I know from him that the IEP is like the Bible!


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## Kris10

Jax's Mom said:


> It's one thing to be too lazy to do something but it's another to actually be of the opinion that a kid doesn't have the right to go to any school he'd like because he has a disability. We as human beings are willing to let this go because it's the law? We couldn't possibly modify or amend this law to regulate service dogs for the safety of the disabled person or the people around them?
> If this were my kid's school, I'd pull them out because I wouldn't want them being taught that it's OK to just kick a 12 year old kid aside because he inconveniences others.


The school isn't responsible for the law and can't change it! They would however be responsible for any lawsuits stemming from not following any laws. I think there is more involved here, like the fact that the child's own MOTHER couldn't tell if the child is having a seizure. If the child has a devastating seizure while at this school who is to provide medical treatment? If the teachers can't tell he his having a seizure and the child, god forbid, suffers complications and passes away, are the parents going to sue because the child wasn't given proper medical treatment?

What about if the child needs help and a teacher approaches and is bitten? Another child gets knocked over or bitten? Well that's supposed to be a safe workplace and environment for other children, yada yada.

Believe me I HATE how sue happy people are- and I think that is why sometimes what people think is the "right" thing to do can't always be done.

I really feel for this boy, who just wants to be like an ordinary kid and go to school.


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## Jax's Mom

Kris10 said:


> The school isn't responsible for the law and can't change it!


So then we’re done here? There’s a law and there’s no changing it?




Kris10 said:


> I think there is more involved here, like the fact that the child's own MOTHER couldn't tell if the child is having a seizure.


That’s why they got the dog.




Kris10 said:


> If the child has a devastating seizure while at this school who is to provide medical treatment?


The article alludes to the fact that the dog does.




Kris10 said:


> If the teachers can't tell he his having a seizure and the child, god forbid, suffers complications and passes away, are the parents going to sue because the child wasn't given proper medical treatment?


I’m not sure what you mean by this, do you mean the child should then never leave the sight of anyone responsible for suing in the event of his death? Just because a person dies, doesn’t mean someone must get sued. ...even if it did, I know of several lawyers that could craft waivers in the event the kid doesn’t survive the day, the last one to lay eyes on him isn’t responsible for his death.


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## kiwilrdg

> Originally Posted by *kiwilrdg*
> _the parents should appeal this part of the childs Individualized Education Program._
> This is what I was wondering....if the crux of the issue is what happens with the dog after the child has a seizure, can't this be sorted out in the IEP? Wouldn't that process and documentation lay out what to do in that scenario? Seems like the "duh" answer to me.... I'm not a parapro or special ed teacher but my husband is/has been both and I know from him that the IEP is like the Bible!


This whole issue kind of looks like an attempt to bypass the appeals process of the IEP. 

If there is a problem and the law is not being followed the problem will not be solved unless the law is followed by the parents to get the proper appeal and change to policy in a way that does follow the law. 

If the child's condition is as it has been described (I do think it is, but I put that clarification in because there are many people with fake service dogs) the dog is needed and some plan would need to be made to ensure a safe way (for this child and the other students in the school) for the child to be taught.


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## Kris10

Jax's Mom said:


> So then we’re done here? There’s a law and there’s no changing it?
> 
> That’s why they got the dog.
> 
> The article alludes to the fact that the dog does.
> 
> I’m not sure what you mean by this, do you mean the child should then never leave the sight of anyone responsible for suing in the event of his death? Just because a person dies, doesn’t mean someone must get sued. ...even if it did, I know of several lawyers that could craft waivers in the event the kid doesn’t survive the day, the last one to lay eyes on him isn’t responsible for his death.


Wow I think you MISINTERPRETED every part of my post. I am not disagreeing with the fact that the situation is sad and wrong. I am just pointing out that you can't hold the school solely responsible for the situation. 

A friend of mine fell in gym class in 4th grade and broke her wrist. Clearly an accident, but her family sued the school district successfully (well, they settled for a nice sum instead of going to court). 

How does me pointing out that the school didn't create the law become "so we are done here"??? Your answer was pulling your kid out of that school...

I am not saying we are done here...just pointing out something in your post that I disagreed with.


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## AbbyK9

I did not read all of the posts in this thread, but I think the reason people are upset that this school is denying this boy the "right" to bring his Service Dog to school is because they do not actually understand the law.

Yes, the ADA gives people with disabilities the right to bring their Service Dog with them to places dogs are ordinarily not allowed, and the dogs legally have to be allowed in those facilities. However, what the ADA really covers are Title III entities - restaurants, transportation, stores, etc. Places where the general public is normally allowed.

Schools fall under Title II. Schools are NOT places where the general public is normally allowed. While you would be able to walk into the lobby of a school, you would not be able, as a member of the public, to walk into a classroom. And that's where the law differs because schools are NOT places that allow general public access.

ILGHAUS, who is an expert on laws pertaining to Service Dogs, has a thread with information on Title II located here --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/guide-therapy-service-dogs/117038-schools-under-title-ii.html - that would be interesting reading if people are interested in learning why schools can exclude a Service Dog and what parents need to do for their child to be allowed to bring the Service Dog to school.

In many cases, the argument is that, if a school can assign an aide to the student who can handle the same tasks as the Service Dog, then the dog is not needed while at school and would most likely be disruptive to the school. (This was the case with a deaf boy who was denied bringing his Hearing Dog to school in, I believe, NJ - the boy was assigned a one-on-one aide who accompanied him throughout the day.)


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## Hansel & Gretel

I believe you perfectly articulated the schools position. 

The parents position is that the dog can sense seizures before people can see them and the dog is able to lessen the degree of the seizure by means of activating the implant in the boy's chest via the corresponding transmitter on the dogs collar.

Because his seizures are potentially fatal, the parents are insisting the dog is still necessary (medically required) even though the boy has an assigned aide.

John


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## AbbyK9

At any rate, this is not an ADA issue and the school is not violating the ADA.

Because schools fall under Title II, the boy's parents need to go through the specific process that is required in order to be allowed to bring the dog to school. If that process dead-ends, they can appeal to the Department of Education. But at the same time, if the school is able to provide what the dog does for him by assigning an aide, then they are unlikely to win the case.

I find it interesting that the articles mentions specifically that the dog is "trained to alert when Andrew is having or is about to have a seizure". If that is correct, then the fact that the dog is not always alerting BEFORE the seizures may be one of the reasons the school is arguing that an aide can be used in school. If a seizure has to start before the dog alerts, then an aide would also be able to recognize the seizure and activate the device.

I would like to see the "Service Dog requirements" the schools have - maybe it's a minimum of trained tasks the dog has to perform (I believe it's generally three trained tasks that can be performed on command, which usually means alerting to a medical condition is not considered to be a "trained" task).


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## DJEtzel

The boy made it 12 years without a service dog, didn't he?


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## Mrs.K

DJEtzel said:


> The boy made it 12 years without a service dog, didn't he?


Are you serious?

Blind people make it over 18 years without a guide dog, why giving them one once they are adults? After all they made it all the years without one. 

Really? 

Come on DJEtzel. 

The dog will improve his overall quality of life.


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## DharmasMom

DJEtzel said:


> The boy made it 12 years without a service dog, didn't he?



You're kidding right? 

You do realize that frequent and prolonged seizures can cause brain damage, don't you? Apparently this kid has already been mentally affected by his seizures. Also people with epilepsy never know when the next one will be the one that puts them in what is called status epilepticus. One continuous seizure that can't be stopped until the patient is placed in a phenobarbital coma. Even then they can continue to seize but you can only tell this with an EEG, the medications stops them from physically shaking but their brains can continually seize. 

If the vagus nerve stimulator can work and prevent or shorten the seizure and the dog can sense the seizure before or right as it is starting - and humans don't always notice this happening, the patient might, it can start with an aura- then he should be able to have the dog. Little Susie who gets stuffy and runny eyes or Little Tommy who is afraid of the big dog can be placed in a different class. 

Sounds to me like the school just doesn't want to do the extra work that it would take to separate out the kids who are allergic or afraid, have the kid leave class a bit earlier then the other kids to avoid the hallway crush, eat lunch separately and have recess separately. And that is just wrong.


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## Hansel & Gretel

I know. I couldn't agree more Mrs.K and DharmasMom

I just don't get the attitudes on this form. We all know what our GSD do for our quality of life. We know how intelligent, loyal and loving they are. And with training they can do amazing things. 

It seems like to me, if they have a policy allowing service dogs in school (which they do) they are being grossly unfair to Andrew by denying his. 

It is a sad reflection on our attitudes as a society.


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## Zoeys mom

What if little Suzy is allergic to the point of anaphylactic shock when exposed to dog dander? My father is so allergic to cats he can not even come into secondary contact with anything a cat or cat owner has touched without suffering immediate asthma attacks and anaphylaxsis is his epi pen is not near. Little Suzy couldn't eat in the cafeteria, go to the library, art, music, PE rooms, or be in contact with other students exposed to these rooms. Is that fair?

Children with severe phobias would not be able to enter the school knowing a dog was there and again I have to ask how fair is that?

I don't know if any of these conditions even apply btw in this particular school, but I think they are a fair reason to deny an SD.


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## Hansel & Gretel

The school system has a policy allowing service dogs in school. I don't think your argument carries much weight since they made the decision to allow service dogs.

They disallowed Andrews because *they *think it is not necessary (Never mind what his doctor thinks).

Here is a video of a little girl with a seizure dog. Pretty cool


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## DharmasMom

Zoeys mom said:


> What if little Suzy is allergic to the point of anaphylactic shock when exposed to dog dander? My father is so allergic to cats he can not even come into secondary contact with anything a cat or cat owner has touched without suffering immediate asthma attacks and anaphylaxsis is his epi pen is not near. Little Suzy couldn't eat in the cafeteria, go to the library, art, music, PE rooms, or be in contact with other students exposed to these rooms. Is that fair?
> 
> Children with severe phobias would not be able to enter the school knowing a dog was there and again I have to ask how fair is that?
> 
> I don't know if any of these conditions even apply btw in this particular school, but I think they are a fair reason to deny an SD.



I am going to be honest with you in 20 years of nursing, 10 of it in pediatric emergency medicine, I never have met anyone THAT allergic to an animal. I would say your FIL is a very rare case. And if a child is that allergic she wouldn't be able to be in contact with most kids or teachers anyway. How many of them come to school after being in contact with the family dog, cat, guinea pig, etc. 

And again, a phobia so severe, a child can't enter the building knowing the dog is in there is a bit extreme. How would the child act if a bomb dog showed up one day because a bomb threat was called in?? And that happened several times during my school years. I can see not wanting to be in the class but the building, that is a bit much. That child's parents may want to do something about their kid because he is not going to be able to get through life.


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## Hansel & Gretel

Did you notice the GSD in the hospital bed with the little girl in the video?


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## Zoeys mom

Actually I have a son with phobias that severe and his school makes accommodations for fire drills because loud noises send him into a frenzy where he will shut down for hours. It happens and is something schools have to take into consideration I don't have a problem with service dogs in schools if allergies and phobias aren't an issue, and the distraction created does not take away from other student's education; but I can't believe very few here see how it could create a problem?


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## DharmasMom

So if the school should be expected to take your child's special needs into consideration then they should also be expected to take Andrew's needs as well. 

Phobias of loud noises are more common. Fear of a dog that you may not see or even need to know is there is very different. Also the severe allergies you are worried about are extremely rare. Everything else can be worked around. But that is what it would take. WORK. And it is worth it because Andrew gets socialization and an education and his health is protected as best as possible. I am sure the school has to go the extra mile for your child and it is extra work. But in the end it is worth is because your son receives those same things and it is what is best for him.


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## Hansel & Gretel

Fairfax County high schools routinely have the police department K-9 unit (narcotics dog) walk the halls sniffing lockers. 

I haven't heard a peep about allergies or distractions related to that.


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## DharmasMom

Hansel & Gretel said:


> Did you notice the GSD in the hospital bed with the little girl in the video?



I did. But I really thought them riding around in the golf cart together was the best though.


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## Zoeys mom

DharmasMom said:


> So if the school should be expected to take your child's special needs into consideration then they should also be expected to take Andrew's needs as well.
> 
> Yes schools should take special needs into consideration when they do not affect the needs of others. My son gets resource for an hour a day, wears special ear plugs on fire drill days and is given the heads up so he can prepare, and has other accommodations like scribe, speech therapy, occupational therapy, and is given visual cues when learning objectives are being introduced.
> 
> None of these accommodations impact the educational or environmental needs of anyone else and if he did require something the school could not provide we would find a way to provide it ourselves like we do with his personal therapy. I am not 100% against this child having his SD at school I just think people should think about ALL the reasons a school would say no.


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## AbbyK9

> Fairfax County high schools routinely have the police department K-9 unit (narcotics dog) walk the halls sniffing lockers.


Which is a completely different situation and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. Not only partially due to the fact that these dogs are run through to sniff the lockers while the kids are in class and not out in the hallways.



> The school system has a policy allowing service dogs in school.


Again, like I said above, I would like to see what their policy and guidelines are. We can argue from here until the sun goes down there there's a "policy allowing Service Dogs" but we can't discuss why the dog in question has not been allowed unless we actually see what the policy states and what requirements it lays down for a dog to be allowed (or not allowed) in the classroom.

So far, we have established that the school is not violating the law because schools do not fall under the ADA, they fall under Title II. And we've established that there is a policy and that the school says the child does not meet the criteria to have a Service Dog in school - which is actually very common and can be addressed by the parents through an appeal to the Department of Education, which is where such complaints go.

But we've not established WHY the school says the boy cannot have the dog in school. We also don't know exactly what their policy regarding Service Dogs is. But it seems like a lot of people are jumping to conclusions that this is because the dog is a German Shepherd or that the school is not willing to make reasonable accommodations.

DJEtzel's posts are just in the realm of, "Are you serious?" and don't contribute anything to the discussion, neither fact (laws / policies) nor common sense. Sorry. But they sure do get people wound up.


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## Hansel & Gretel

The last sentence of the news article says the school has a policy allowing service dogs


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## Hansel & Gretel

And the kids are in the hallway with the narc dogs. That's part of the deterrent. I brought it up because of all the talk about allergies and distractions. Seems relevant to me


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## Hansel & Gretel

AbbyK9 said:


> So far, we have established that the school is not violating the law because schools do not fall under the ADA, they fall under Title II. And we've established that there is a policy and that the school says the child does not meet the criteria to have a Service Dog in school ...


That will change in March. ADA will be applicable to Title II

"On September 15th the Department of Justice finalized new regulations concerning service animals under the Americans With Disabilities Act. These regulations take effect on March 15, 2011. They pertain to Title II (governments, i*ncluding schools*) and Title III (public accommodations). Here is a summary by the Department of Justice. Here is the printed version in the federal register (this works as a sleep aid as well.) This is a highlight sheet of the changes to Title II."


Service animal Special Education Today


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## beaderdog

Not only does federal law require access for service animals, the Department of Justice has made it very clear that the ADA (which is the relevant law regarding service animals) is applicable to schools. Schools generally don't fight service animals that are partnered with a student who has a physical disability. The problems we see with service animals in schools (my husband is a special education attorney) tends to be with those who are partnered with students with "invisible" disabilities, such as autism. AFAIC this is clearly discriminatory. Schools that attenpt to exclude service animals also tend to overlook the fact that these are animals which are specifically trained to help that student overcome one or more aspects of his/her disability. They often try to exclude service animals on the basis that the animal is not necessary as part of the child's IEP, but this has beeen a losing argument for them. The trend in the courts has clearly been on the side of access, not on the side of exclusion. 

There are, of course, some schools which welcome service animals - including one I read about recently where bringing in an autism service dog was actually the principal's idea. The schools that have service dogs will usually tell you that the partnered student with the service animal is much more able to access his/her education, and that the other students adjust to the service animal within a couple of weeks. As to the allergy argument - the school can make accomodations for the student with allergies, but they cannot do it at the expense of the other disabled student. Generally, this has been a non-issue - students with allergies are assigned to other classrooms or seated some distance from the service animal. In the case of younger students who are not capable of serving as the handler for the service animal, a trained handler is usually provided by the parents. Indeed, the handler is often one of the parents. Until my son was old enough & big enough to handle his autism service dog (Siberian husky), I was the handler.


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## AbbyK9

> The last sentence of the news article says the school has a policy allowing service dogs.


I wish you would actually read my posts. 

Yes, we know that the school has a policy that allows Service Dogs. What we do not know is what requirements the dogs must meet to be allowed in the school as Service Dogs with the disabled child. Is there a minimum of trained tasks? Proof of the dog's training? An adult handler that needs to be with the child to supervise the dog? Etc. We do not know. We know there IS a policy but we do NOT know what the policy is or what in the policy caused the school to deny THIS student permission to bring his Service Dog to school.

We can argue about the policy all we want, but unless we know what the policy actually is, it's all a moot point.



> And the kids are in the hallway with the narc dogs. That's part of the deterrent. I brought it up because of all the talk about allergies and distractions. Seems relevant to me


I would be very surprised to learn that the dogs are actually searching the lockers while the kids are out in the hallway with them. Most departments search while the kids are in the classroom so there's no interference with the dogs and the dogs have room to work. I'm sure they walk them through before starting the search or after so the kids can see them, but I highly doubt they search with the kids in the hallway.

That said, it is still not relevant to the case of this student not being allowed to bring his Service Dog to school. First, police dogs are not subject to the ADA or public access laws. Second, police dogs are there a short period of time (maybe a couple of hours at the most), not all day in the classroom. Apples and oranges.



> That will change in March. ADA will be applicable to Title II


Can you please show me in the revised Title II text what will change that would be applicable to this situation? It seems to me that the current Title II provisions and the new Title II provisions are not very much different when it comes to Service Animals and how/when/where they must be allowed and how/when/where they can be excluded.


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## selzer

Severe allergies MAY be very rare -- I mean goes into encephalitic shock. But less severe allergies to dog dander are not rare, they are common. Asthmatics have a terrible time, asthma attacks are not the only problems they have. Some walk around sick for months at a time when the flare up is happening. 

Why, yes dog dander COULD be a cause. 

Yes we all love dogs, and want to see this child have his siezure dog. BUT, does that mean two or three or four children should not learn as well this year because they are chronically ill enough to inhibit learning, and WILL have asthma attacks more often because of it? 

I just do not know if it makes sense to rob one child or more children of an atmosphere conducive of learning so that another child can be taught in a public school. 

I do not have the answers. I agree that a lot of adults are afraid of dogs, children are too. Maybe my fear should not impede your medical condition. I get that. But fear can also be a medical condition. 

I think that in a public school setting you really need to provide for the majority a safe and healthy atmostphere for learning. For the few, you may have to provide a tudor or home school. 

Don't tell me that asthma is no big deal. Asthma kills. It almost killed me. And just about every classroom I was in growing up had one or two asthmatics in it. You really cannot segregate asthmatics to classroom A, and service dog people to classroom C.


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## DharmasMom

I am aware asthma can kill. I have seen quite a few asthma attacks in my career that required the person to be intubated. One of them was an adult woman that came home from vacation to her house where her animal had been locked up for a week and the pet hair set her off and she actually arrested. We saved her. We had two children once that were so severe that even pure oxygen wouldn't help. One required general anesthesia for us to be able to oxygenate and the other we used a combination of helium and oxygen called heliox. Neither of those cases were related to animals but due to lack of proper treatment and the attack being exacerbated by exercise 9 (one mother took the bus rather than calling 911 and had the child walk 1/2 mile to the ER while having the attack).

My point is those are extreme situations and rare. The school could separate a child who is sensative to pet dander into a different class. The child with the SD can be dismissed from class 10 minutes early to meet his mother to leave school. Never the 2 shall meet. It CAN be worked out. It just requires a little effort on the schools part. Effort the school obviously does not want to put forth. 

I won't pretend to know what the laws are. I'm not a lawyer. I do know what the medical aspect is. The whole allergy/phobia thing can be worked around. It can be done safely for all involved. The child's seizures can and will con't to eat away at his brain however and he very well could have one that can be stopped eventually. If they are lessened and his quality of life is improved with the dog then he should have the dog. And with the dog to activate the VNS, it sounds like the dog could very well end up saving his life.


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## Hansel & Gretel

AbbyK9 said:


> I wish you would actually read my posts.
> 
> Yes, we know that the school has a policy that allows Service Dogs. What we do not know is what requirements the dogs must meet to be allowed in the school as Service Dogs with the disabled child. Is there a minimum of trained tasks? Proof of the dog's training? An adult handler that needs to be with the child to supervise the dog? Etc. We do not know. We know there IS a policy but we do NOT know what the policy is or what in the policy caused the school to deny THIS student permission to bring his Service Dog to school.
> 
> We can argue about the policy all we want, but unless we know what the policy actually is, it's all a moot point.
> 
> I would be very surprised to learn that the dogs are actually searching the lockers while the kids are out in the hallway with them. Most departments search while the kids are in the classroom so there's no interference with the dogs and the dogs have room to work. I'm sure they walk them through before starting the search or after so the kids can see them, but I highly doubt they search with the kids in the hallway.
> 
> That said, it is still not relevant to the case of this student not being allowed to bring his Service Dog to school. First, police dogs are not subject to the ADA or public access laws. Second, police dogs are there a short period of time (maybe a couple of hours at the most), not all day in the classroom. Apples and oranges.
> 
> Can you please show me in the revised Title II text what will change that would be applicable to this situation? It seems to me that the current Title II provisions and the new Title II provisions are not very much different when it comes to Service Animals and how/when/where they must be allowed and how/when/where they can be excluded.


You keep saying the same thing over and over again.

Demanding more information is a great tactic when you are loosing an argument. You cannot see the forest through the trees here and it seems you never will. I sure hope you aren't making the rules anywhere.

You are going to argue against anything I say, facts or not.

You are exactly the kind of person that Fairafax has making these decisions. You are in good company.

I hope more reasonable minds prevail.


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## Mrs.K

As for Asthma, my sister had the most horrible Asthma as a child. She was allergic towards everything. Doesn't matter what pet she'd touch, she'd have to inhale immediately but that did not keep her from going to ride a horse or have dogs and it did not keep my parents from having pets and breeding dogs. 

She would have the worst Asthma attacks but over the time she rehabilitated herself. They longer she was around pets, they more her imunesystem fought down the Asthma. 

She wanted to be around pets and even back then, there was enough medication on the market to make that possible. 

Just because somebody has Asthma doesn't mean he can't be around pets because I know, it's possible. My sister is the living proof. 

By the way, she's a professional horsetrainer now and as far as I know, Asthma free.


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## Liesje

We need to post a revised version of this thread sans all the anecdotal evidence being thrown around...


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## AbbyK9

> You keep saying the same thing over and over again. Demanding more information is a great tactic when you are loosing an argument. (...) You are going to argue against anything I say, facts or not.


I "keep saying the same thing over and over again" because you're just not getting it. You can NOT cite the existing policy as a precedent for bringing this particular Service Dog to school if you DO NOT KNOW what the existing policy is and what requirements this dog does or does not meet. EVERYTHING on your end is speculation. It's well-intentioned because you want to see this child to be able to bring the dog to school, but it's speculation all the same.

Again, there are SPECIFIC things parents need to do for their child's dog to be allowed in the classroom. If the school does not see things the way the parents do, the next place they can appeal to, after they've appealed the decision to the school, is the Department of Education. That's where Title II complaints go.

It is clear from the article in the news that the parents have not gone to the Department of Education and have not had the time to appeal either with the school or the Department of Education. 

The parents originally talked to the school on December 2, and then the school had a meeting to discuss this on December 9. They sent the parents a letter letting them know that the dog does not meet the VDOE (Virginia Department of Education) requirements for being a Service Dog and that they feel they can provide the same help to the child at school that the dog provides for him normally. That letter was sent December 14, so I expect it took a day or two to get to the parents. The parents went to the news December 20. 

If you're wondering where those facts come from, they're from the letter the school sent to the parents, which you can see (and read) in the video clip from Fox News.

There is a process to appeal and deal with this but they are not following it.

There is no argument here for me to "win" or "lose", nor is there for you, unless you have a personal stake in this boy taking his Service Dog to school. Your whole position is not based on facts. First you argued the school was violating the ADA (which they aren't because schools are Title II entities, not Title III entities. Then you say there's existing policy but as you don't know what it is or how it applies to this case, that's really a moot point. If you want to reason an argument, please, do bring facts to the table, not just feelings of how things should be.

For the record, the policy the letter to the parents mentiones is VDOE's guidance on Service Dogs in schools, which can be found online, here --> http://www.doe.virginia.gov/special_ed/tech_asst_prof_dev/guidance_service_dog.pdf Note that this is not "the policy", but guidance from the VDOE to schools on writing their individual policies and what they need to include.

Based on the guidance on Service Dogs, I think that there probably would be no issues bringing the dog to school if they were part of a three-unit Service Dog team, in other words, if a qualified adult handler (such as the child's mother) were part of the team to handle the dog during classes. Similar to Beaderdog's case cited above, where she handled her child's Service Dog until her child was old enough to do so himself.

VA Schools also require dogs to have passed the ADI Public Access test (it even gives information on which Virginia organizations can administer the test) and have a current health certificate that is presented to the school.


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## selzer

Mrs. K, I have been living with dogs for the past ten years, and my asthma is getting worse not better. Not everyone is going to be the same as your sister.

No longer having an inside cat and removing the carpets helped immensely though.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Wow Selzer. That's tough. To love animals as much as you do, asthma must really be a pain.


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## selzer

I do not have it bad, only one bad time where acid reflux traveled down my esophagus and caused a full fledged asthma attack in the middle of the night. Thought I was having a heart attack. Chest pain, could not breathe at all. 

But mostly my asthma makes me feel like I have a nasty cold all the time. When I do get a bug it usually hangs on for months and months. This is why I say that a kid allergic to dog dander may not be huffing and puffing, but may be chronically sick enough to keep them from learning well. 

And it took them ten years to diagnose me, when I was an adult. Not when I was a kid. But I was often sick through school. 

I guess I can see both points of view. On the one hand you have a kid who has a life threatening condition, and using the dog would be helpful to him. On the other hand you may have three or four kids that will suffer from having the dog in the room day in and day out, especially if it is carpeted. That one kid has a condition, the school probably feel inadequate to manage, and the other kids, might not even be diagnosed as having a problem, but will not learn at the level they are able to if they are sick more often and with longer periods of illness. 


At what point does the needs of the many over shadow the needs of one or vice-versa?


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## AbbyK9

> On the one hand you have a kid who has a life threatening condition, and using the dog would be helpful to him. On the other hand you may have three or four kids that will suffer from having the dog in the room day in and day out, especially if it is carpeted.


For what it is worth, allergies or fear of dogs were NOT among the reasons the school cited (in writing) of why they were not allowing the dog in the school, so I think we can argue about kids being allergic or scared of dogs all day long, but it's really irrelevant in this case since this is not the reason why the dog is not allowed.


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## ILGHAUS

It will take me awhile to catch up with the multi pages here but just a few high lights here and there.



> If this were a guide dog for a blind child, do you think another child's allergy should be allowed to take precedence?


First guide dog schools do not assign guide dogs to anyone under the age of 16. I see this statement in many arguments for SDs in Pre-K up. And even then a guide dog is only given to someone who has had a series of special classes in getting around with the use of a cane first.

Now, the ADA. *The ADA, section III*, addresses the rights of a disabled person in areas of *public* access but does not cover a classroom. Public places are those locations where a member of the public can walk into such as a grocery store, a shopping mall, a theater. The DOJ enlarges on this under 28 CFR Section 36.302(c) which _specifically addresses service animals and clarifies that "Generally, a public accommodation shall modify policies, practices, or procedures to permit the use of a service animal by an individual with a disability" ..._ 

A handler can take their SD into a school lobby when they go into it on legimate business because the school lobby is open to the public. A school classroom falls under other Fed. law since it is not open for the public to walk into. As a member of the public, can either you or I walk up to any school in the country and enter a classroom on a whim or just because we want to see the inside for whatever reason? Even parents of a child attending that class must first stop by the office and sign in. Classrooms are only open for *Public Access* during special circumstances such as an open house.


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## ILGHAUS

> do you think another child's allergy should be allowed to take precedence?


In answer to this - not precedence but equal consideration. The ADA also recognizes allergies in certain cases along with other life threatening disabilities.


There was also a statement about a doctor's prescription/letter for the dog. A doctor can not prescribe a SD though they can for an Emotional Support Animal, which is not a SD and the owner can not take an ESA into a place of business that does not allow pets. A doctor can add a letter to a patient's medical file that they recommend and believe a SD could be of great help for their patient. A copy of this letter should then be added to other documents kept by a disabled handler to show a judge if there is ever any question of the legality of the SD.

A *medical* disability does not always equal a *legal* disability.


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## ILGHAUS

Now another fact that seems to get lost in many discussions.

The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) was an act passed by Congress and signed into law by President Bush (SR). The ADA does not mention Service Dogs nor Service Dogs In Training. Different parts of the law were given to different government agencies to oversee. These are the U.S. Department of Justice, the U.S. Department of Transportation, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Housing and Urban Development, and the Department of Education.


The Dept. of Justice (DOJ) which covers most items concerning Service Dogs does this by their own regulatory laws through the power given to them when assigned their duties. 

So to get back to one of my previous statements - the ADA does not automatically cover the issue of a SD being taken into a classroom. Before using this as a argument for the use of a SD being used by a student or claims that a school is in violation of the ADA it would be better for someone to research and find out exactly what law covers what. 

A better way to find out the rights of a student would be to start with the U.S. Dept. of Education, the Dept. of Education of the State, and the County's policies on disabled students.


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## ILGHAUS

A chart that may help.

Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund | A COMPARISON of ADA, IDEA, and Section 504

A COMPARISON of ADA, IDEA, and Section 504 
​The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA), the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 represent three attempts to improve the living conditions of those with disabilities.


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## ILGHAUS

Going back over some of this thread I keep seeing posts about the ADA trumping other laws concerning SDs, that the ADA states SDs are allowed everywhere, that the ADA does not permit any type of dog ban etc. etc.

Can someone post a link (not a blog or a Yahoo! group where a group is discussing what they believe the ADA says) but a real link / direct quote *from the ADA* (the law itself) stating these things? 

Does someone have a court case which quotes a part of the ADA as part of the judicial decision on allowing a SD into a school - or even a place of business? Again, the law itself since this is the source of reference being used.


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## Jessiewessie99

I have asthma, but its rather dormant right now. I haven't had an attack in a LONG time. I used to(and starting to get back into it) play sports: Soccer, Softball, Basketball, and Volleyball. But then one 4th of July weekend, my city had their annual Block Party(the city's birthday) and they had those jumpers that are like mazes to go through, and normally I would come out and catch my breath and start breathing normally, but not this time. When I got out of the jumper I could not catch my breath, I had to sit down and relax until I was able to breathe normal again.

Later that night I starting having an asthma attack(I didn't thats what it was until later). So the next day my parents took me to Urgent Care, they did some tests, and the doctor could hear that I was wheezing when I was breathing. He did some more tests, and concluded I had minor asthma. He told me not to do anything that made my lungs harder than they needed(basically no playing sports, running around etc.) for a week. Know what sucked? My cousin had his beach party that day and I couldn't go in the water and go swimming or ride my boogey board!!

I made an appointment with my doctor and did more tests, and I was prescribed that clear inhaler. I had a minor case of it, but I still had asthma attacks, and they are NOT fun. Each time I freaked out thinking what the heck was happening. I became paranoid when out doing stuff. Also later that year, California had some major wildfires and the smoke and ash came into where I lived and was all over the place and in the air, I could not go outside.

Eventually I grew out of it. My first year of college I took a fitness class to get in shape and loose some weight. I told my instructor about my asthma and explained that I haven't had it in a long time. He told me to bring my inhaler, since I would be working out, my body wouldn't be used to it. He told me the exercises we were going to be assigned may make me work harder than normal and may trigger the asthma. He told me to bring it so I would have it just in case even though I hadn't had a problem in a long time. There were moments where I had to stop and catch my breath, and have shortness of breath later too. But hardly needed it.

I still haven't had any major problems since then, my doctor still checks my breathing, I have slight wheezing, but nothing serious. I have my inhaler with me where I can get it incase a problem arises. I still wheeze from time to time. I am careful, when I go swimming, play sports, exercise etc.

It can kill you, its scary when you have an attack. I seriously felt like a fish out of water.


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## ILGHAUS

Wow be careful what button you push with a post. 

Anyway, I think it would be most helpful as was already said if the policy on SDs in the school district was available to be read and also to know for what reason the dog was denied. 

Did the parents follow procedure in making a request for the dog to attend class with their son?

Did the parents address any concerns that the school may have raised about this particular dog and the ability of their son to handle the dog?

Did the parents know their son's legal rights per the Dept. of Education, their state, and their school district and mention these rights when discussing the matter with school admin? 

When denied the request did the parents follow appeals procedure or go straight to their blog, find a lawyer, threaten to sue, set up an interview with the local newspaper? 

In middle school some children may be mature enough to handle and care for their dog during the school day while others are not. 

Too many unknowns at this point to form an educated opinion on this case.


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## Denali Girl

USDOJ Search:service animals site:www.ada.gov

There may be something on here of some interest.


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## AbbyK9

> Anyway, I think it would be most helpful as was already said if the policy on SDs in the school district was available to be read and also to know for what reason the dog was denied.


TJ, if you go to the video linked in the original post that started this thread, you can see the letter the school sent the family, which has a lot of information in it. It references the policy guidelines from the VDOE (though it does not include the actual school's policy), it also gives information on why the dog was denied - the school believes that the teacher aides can do for the boy what the dog does, and the school believes that the dog does not meet the policy's requirements.



> Did the parents follow procedure in making a request for the dog to attend class with their son?


According to the letter, the parents came to speak with the school on 2 December, to make them aware of the dog and ask if the dog can attend school with the boy when he starts at the school in January. The school had a meeting on 9 December, at which time they made the decision not to allow the dog, and sent a letter to the family on 14 December letting them know their decision.



> Did the parents address any concerns that the school may have raised about this particular dog and the ability of their son to handle the dog?
> 
> Did the parents know their son's legal rights per the Dept. of Education, their state, and their school district and mention these rights when discussing the matter with school admin?


This, I don't know.



> When denied the request did the parents follow appeals procedure or go straight to their blog, find a lawyer, threaten to sue, set up an interview with the local newspaper?


I believe the parents did not follow appeals procedure - they would not have had time between the time they received the letter from the school and when they went to the news. The letter was sent 14 December. I expect it would take about two days to get to the family. The news report appeared 20 December. I don't believe they had any time between getting the letter and getting on the news to go through an appeal.


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## Hansel & Gretel

ILGHAUS said:


> When denied the request did the parents follow appeals procedure or go straight to their blog, find a lawyer, threaten to sue, set up an interview with the local newspaper?



Just out of curiosity, why does this matter? I personally think you do whatever you can do to help your cause. 

John

Oh, and Merry Christmas!


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## Hansel & Gretel

_Post deleted by Mod _

_~~ You must have permission from either the original author of a post or from the owner of the other forum in order to cross post material. If you do then credit must also be given to the source. ~~_


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## Angelo John Stevens

*Andrews Parents*

This site was brought to my attention, so I came to respond directly (some already have their minds made up)

The school was aware that we were working on obtaining Andrew's Service dog, some 6 months before we received it as we had to take time to do fund raisers and apply for grants, in addition to meeting with the trainer, and having Andrews items with his scent mailed to the dogs location.

So for six months yes the school was aware that we 1 had a prescription, 2 doctors order that Andrew must have the dog to attend 3 EFMP (exceptional family member program) support this is a program in the military, doctors letter explaining the nature of Andrews ailment and that it was listed as life threatining.

We had a total of 6 meetings with the school, the last 2 meetings we ended because the requests we made (example meeting with those opposed to the dog) were not being met or addressed, at the 5th meeting it was decided by all that everyone invovled would be at the final meeting and no desision would be made until then, we agreed.

At that time I gathered all supporting documents, letters, people, evidence, laws and regulations, on Wenesday 430 PM just 1 day before the meeting we received a letter from the school denying the service dog.

They sited 2 reasons, one Andrew is unable to handle the dog, which we proved false by the way, Andrew can control the dog, when in a Seizure the dog performs exactly as she is trained to, never leaving Andrew or wandering. When not in a Seizure the dog does exactly what its trained to do, be near him, and observe him.

The second reason was they also claim they have teachers in place that can perform all the fuctions of the Seizure trained dog, when we asked how they had a human that could detect seizures.

So the next day we went to the meeting, none of the people we requested and were told would be there were there, we then pointed out that we received a denial letter which also was not supposed to be decided until this meeting.

None of those present for the school could explain either, it was at this 6th meeting we decided to start fighting, after careful examination of the law, and based on the certifications we have, Alaya and Andrew are both legal to enter the school, and are being denied, we have a letter from the doctor that their are currently no documented humans that can detect seizures, there is however evidence to support specially trained dogs seem to have that ability, there is no reasoning on how or why, they just do.

Fact: Law states Alaya is a trained service dog
Fact: Law states Schools must follow the law relating to ADA
Fact: Andrew requires the dog per doctors order
Fact No human can do what Alaya can do
Fact: Everyone has a reason to say no, the law says yes.

Fact: FCPS violated civil/federal law
Fact: Andrew can control the dog
Fact: Allergies and Fears are not a legal reason to disallow a service dog
Fact: My child is in a special contained class
Fact: Yes we appealed, hence the 6 meetings
Fact: Yes we have another appeal in
Fact: Yes I am using media and public interest to create pressure and awareness of this issue.

There is not much more to say, my son can only attend this one class, those with fears and allergies can attend any class in the school, my son can not, while they are still able to go to school my son is not, while I defend the country and serve the people my son has his rights violated, the very ones I swear to uphold and protect, I would be just as much a fool to ignore this or not use every weapon at my resource to prevent this.

The final denial reason is they have teachers in place that can perform all functions the dog can, when asked if the child was blind and had a seeing eye dog would that be allowed, their response was "No we have blind children in school now and none have a service dog because our teachers can see for them."

Wrong answer, and illegal, and this is the war I fight today, if this can happen to a Soldiers son, i can only imagine whom else it has and can happen to.

This link is to 1 of 3 videos we are making, please watch it closely, this is not some ordinary dog, thank you again to all, even those against the dog, thanks more you give me the fight and drive to educate and change the future.


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## ILGHAUS

> Just out of curiosity, why does this matter? I personally think you do whatever you can do to help your cause.


Unless proper procedure is followed the parents will not have the backing of legal assistance that might have otherwise been offered to them.

In the case of John Cave and his hearing dog Simba the Judge ruled in favor of the school in large part for two reasons.
1) The parents sued the school system under the wrong law
2) Proper appeal procedure was not followed

And another item that was not brought up in court was the fact that everyday Mrs. Cave, John, and his sister would give interviews to the TV news giving them a step by step plan of what they were going to do next.

Mrs. Cave directly and through one of her best friends relayed whole coversations that should have been held in confidence between them and their lawyer to at least two different Yahoo! Groups. 

Each agency overseeing a section of the ADA has procedures that must be followed. Without that in place they will go no further and that is _why it matters. _

If I knew this family personally I would suggest that they take on the services of a lawyer who specializes in this area and has a knowledge of SDs. They will possibly harm their cause if they rely on public opinion given as feed back on a blog, a chat group, or via the newspaper. The legal system does not taken into consideration emotions and opinions of the parties involved but what is stated in the laws under which the case is bound.


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## ILGHAUS

Mr. Stevens I would like to thank you for taking the time to present your information. When I have a little more time this evening I will go over your post and also pass on to many others who are following this case with much interest. 

I would also like to give you my thanks for your service which takes you away from your family in order to protect mine. 

God bless you and your family.


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## Hansel & Gretel

Mod,
I would have posted a link had I been asked. And I am pretty sure I had de facto permission from the family.

You also deleted my words. I simply stated that I sent the Stevens family an email offering my support and made them aware of this thread if they wanted to participate.

I am glad they did.

John


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## ILGHAUS

> They sited 2 reasons, one Andrew is unable to handle the dog, which we proved false by the way, Andrew can control the dog, when in a Seizure the dog performs exactly as she is trained to, never leaving Andrew or wandering.


In an ongoing discussion, I have listened to adults who have seizure alert/response dogs and they feel that saying a dog not be allowed if the handler can not control the dog during a seizure itself is not a strong point on the part of the school. During the midst of a seizure a handler will not be able to control their dog and that is why the dog is trained so strongly to stay with the handler during this time. They and I feel the only question of handling should cover those other times and that same concern should be if a handler is 12, 30, or more. 

I have not given my opinion on this situation as I do not have all the facts but I am interested in what unfolds. 

Again, thank you for coming here and giving some more information so that those of us who are following the story can see more of the whole picture.


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## Hansel & Gretel

ILGHAUS said:


> Unless proper procedure is followed the parents will not have the backing of legal assistance that might have otherwise been offered to them.
> 
> In the case of John Cave and his hearing dog Simba the Judge ruled in favor of the school in large part for two reasons.
> 1) The parents sued the school system under the wrong law
> 2) Proper appeal procedure was not followed
> 
> And another item that was not brought up in court was the fact that everyday Mrs. Cave, John, and his sister would give interviews to the TV news giving them a step by step plan of what they were going to do next.
> 
> Mrs. Cave directly and through one of her best friends relayed whole coversations that should have been held in confidence between them and their lawyer to at least two different Yahoo! Groups.
> 
> Each agency overseeing a section of the ADA has procedures that must be followed. Without that in place they will go no further and that is _why it matters. _
> 
> If I knew this family personally I would suggest that they take on the services of a lawyer who specializes in this area and has a knowledge of SDs. They will possibly harm their cause if they rely on public opinion given as feed back on a blog, a chat group, or via the newspaper. The legal system does not taken into consideration emotions and opinions of the parties involved but what is stated in the laws under which the case is bound.


I think there is a big difference between tipping your hand for a court appearance and public awarenss of the decisions of our local school officials.

FWIW, Fairfax has a history of making some boneheaded decisions. Some have included the indefinite incarceration (jailed) of a citizen because he didn't plant enough trees on his property to satisfy the county. He finally got out of jail after the story made national news.

My point? Often times the county needs their decisions in the spotlight before they feel enough external pressure to change their mind.


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## selzer

I think it is almost a policy to deny everything out of the ordinary, and wait to see how things unfold. A percentage of individuals will thake that denial as final, and at that point, no more problems for the board. 

I think if you want this to happen, unfortunately, you will have to fight for it to happen. 

I do not know where I stand on this. Right now I am sick as a dog with a nasty caugh and was this way most of my way through school. I know that allergies to dog dander will be the trigger for some kids. And they deserve to be able to learn as well. On the other hand, I do not see how a human being can alert when a siezure is likely to occur, and that these siezures are so deadly, and the child is in a special class, one would think they could find a way to accomadate the dog while keeping children with issues apart from the situation.

My sister has epilepsy. No she would not be able to manage a dog as she passes out when she has a siezure. But this dog is trained for that occurance. 

I do not know if teachers should be responsible to manage service dogs as well as teach classes. But one would think that a classroom such as this would have enough aids that one at least could be trained to support the service dog/child team, and manage any possible issues.


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## selzer

Since these are deadly attacks, what is the procedure for the school to follow during and after an attack? Do they call EMTs for each attack, how often is there an attack? Will they have to use judgement on whether or not to call in Emergency help?


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## DharmasMom

Mr Stevens,

Thank you so much for coming here and posting. I, too, would like to thank you for your service to this country. I wholeheartedly support you in your fight for Andrew to be able to go to school with Alaya and I hope the school board can come to the right decision to allow her in.


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## DharmasMom

selzer said:


> Since these are deadly attacks, what is the procedure for the school to follow during and after an attack? Do they call EMTs for each attack, how often is there an attack? Will they have to use judgement on whether or not to call in Emergency help?



Most people who have frequent seizures just need to be supported through them. Place the patient on their side and wait for the seizure to end. If it does not end within a minute of so then 911 should be called. During the seizure, stay with the patient but never stick anything in their mouth, they may vomit, which is why you want them on their side. When they stop seizing, they will be what is called post-ictal. They will be very, very sleepy. This phase can last up to an hour. Again, just stay with them and watch them.


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## Angelo John Stevens

Again, thank you to everyone both for and against us, I am a Soldier and I do understand that their are always two,three, and **** even four ways to look at things, I have no issues discussing things in a clear respective and educated manner.

We have a lawyer, not a suit lawyer but a compliance one, their job is simply over turning the schools desicion, using law and facts, and having Alaya attend school with Andrew at all times.

We are of course willing, I can take leave for a while im owed that much to attend school with Andrew, the Dog and his fellow students, to educated communicate and teach about seizures, service dogs, the works we already offered that to the school.

I never rush in and do something without having first exasuted other means, once I determined the school was lying to me and making false promises and using illogical reasons to exclude and accept their choice I saw that I had to take the fight to another level.

Public Opinion is a very powerful tool, its not the end all answer but it certainly takes from the shadows and brings to light dealings, and from that history and instances are brought forth that shed more light and detail to the matter at hand.

The person that invited me here, and anyone else for that matter have my full right and permission to paste copy and use anything from me or my wife in order to further this cause, even if your against us for having the dog, why? Because it still keeps the story in the light, which is where it needs to be.

Its easy to say no when its not your child, its easy to say yes when it is yours.
Whats hard is to live with it, and fight for it, when you know its right, im not rich im an E5 with little income and what little I have goes to support my family I have 2 children with disabilitys one severly the other not so bad, a wife that is emotionally drained and I do what I can when I can, I the father am in my childs life as much as possible.

Andrew is not mentally challenged, nor was he solely home schooled by my wife outside agencys have combined their homebound services with ours to give him an education he is currently 6th grade with some assistive techniques, hes surprisingly lovable and caring of others more then himself at times.

We fight this battle for him, with him and for those to come after him, that is the right thing to do, it must be fought for that reason alone.

Law is on our side, contrary to some statements here, and evidence has already been shown that cans FCPS's arguments, also note we have yet to hear a response from FCPS regarding the evidence presented to them.

My child and family are my life as is my country and I do what I do for them and others because I love what we have, take that and learn your son has been denied access with his service dog and ask yourself what you would do?

I reckon the same thing, it hurts I assure you, Andrew understands far more then I think he lets on sometimes, but hes strong, and he makes me strong if anyone here is a hero, its him.

Merry Christmas to everyone, may the new year be brighter.

BTW GSD's are by far the more intelligent breed, theres a reason their service dogs.


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## selzer

Yes, but, this kid has an implant that the dog has to do something with, the siezures, if they last can cause brain damange. So it sounds like the teacher may have to use a judgement call on whether to call the emergency service. I mean, is it possible, that they will not know what the dog is doing and they may be uncomfortable with that.


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## Angelo John Stevens

As I have stated, we the parents, rightly so will teach the do's and don'ts of service dogs.

it stands to reason a fair amount do not know and have never educated themselves on service animals, our intention is not to leave anyone in the dark, we fully intend to be in place with all invovled for a mininum of 3 weeks, we feel this is ample time to teach everyone about service dogs gauge reactions, and get over the "OMG theirs a dog yay" effect.

The canine will not interfere with anyone else rendering aide to Andrew, that is not part of its training, soon I will release a video of Andrew and Alaya on a tether so you may see the distance in length and the reaction of Alaya when the max distance is reached.

We as parents versed ourselves very well in service dogs,seizures,stuides, we wanted to be sure WE were doing the right thing and we are, we worked several weeks on choosing a breed, it was based on case studies and medical evaluations of dog attacks and breeds.

This German Shepard aged 5 was choosen because of her line, father and mother are both champions with great tempers, her line does well with children, also another factor.

How she reacted around other animals, and loud noises also played a role, 30 hours in theaters during training 15 hours at sports games 25 hours at chucky cheese we as parents tested this to make sure we had the right dog, the several days the trainers spent with us, and Andrew to see if they bonded.

The Certificate she has totals 1800 hours of Public Access and Seizure Response mobile Assistance training, she has that certificate on her at all times, affidavets(sp) signed by various people that have witnessed Andrew and Alaya together in public and semi public places example government buildings, employees and events, malls and theaters, resturants and family children centers. (None of which questioned us)

The issues presented by FCPS are moot and no longer valid and when presented with this, they still lack a response, we like most parents want everything Andrew deserves to have, with as much in place as we can have to keep him safe.

We have met and exceeded any expectactions by the state, the law and the FCPS as a whole.

Incidently ADI uses its own certification process for its own internal organizations which are non profit, and not for anyone that is not a member of ADI, ADI will not certify any service animal that has not been trained by its organization, as they are not the same training techniques, they are also curious how and why FCPS is using their standards which are clearly stated not for public use anyone using it without being a member is comitting fraud, anyone using their methods or name is copyright infringement, this was from ADI out of CA, their HQ, I had and have done my own investigating.

There is no handler requirement, however Andrew does have one, there is no regulation that requires me to give either, but I have both, again this is not about making allowances this is about the law, and I am right, the school is wrong.


----------



## ILGHAUS

Mr. Stevens, I am curious and probably missing it somewhere, but what organization *certified* Alaya?

Also,


> There is no handler requirement, however Andrew does have one, there is no regulation that requires me to give either, but I have both,


Are you saying that Andrew and you have handler certifications? If so, which organization issued these and what were the requirements that had to be met? 

"but I have both," again I'm missing something here -- both what?

Does Alaya do anything for Andrew besides alert to his seizures and carry the magnet that activates the device in his chest? I'm also very curious on the magnet. If it activates the device what happens when the magnet comes close to the device when it is not needed? I would think that could be dangerous to be activated when there was no seizure. 

There was some feedback on one of the articles talking about 3-way teams. Will there be an adult with Andrew and Alaya acting as a handler or does Andrew control Alaya by himself? When Alaya needs to go outside during the school day does Andrew take her or will a member of the school staff have to walk her? There is another family fighting their school district to allow their son to take his SD to school and they are requesting (demanding really) that the school system pay to train and have available a member of the staff to care for the dog during the day. 

If Andrew can control Alaya why is there a need for a tether? She has been trained to stay with him so even if he dropped the leash she should then not leave him. 

These are some of the questions that many of us have when children take SDs to school.


----------



## DharmasMom

Mr Stevens,

My question is this.

I am assuming- and correct me if I am wrong- that the device your son has implanted in his chest is a vagus nerve stimulator. The majority of these devices (in fact, all of the ones that I have experience with) give continuous impulses to the vagus nerve. Why does your son's require activation with a magnet? Does it give a stronger impulse or is it just a new device that was developed to prevent the need for continuous stimulation.

I have to admit I am very curious about this as it is not something I have heard of before. I am an RN who works in the OR btw, and has assisted with the implantation of many vagus nerve stimulators in adults and children with intractable seizures. I have never seen one that is turned on with a magnet however (that I am aware of anyway).


----------



## Samba

Activation with a magnet may be utilized in specific clinical situations.


Vagus Nerve Stimulation | epilepsy.com


----------



## AbbyK9

I am extremely glad that John (Hansel & Gretel) invited Andrew's father to this thread so that we can get first-hand information on this case from his side, rather than continue this thread with a whole lot of speculation that is based on no facts at all, and irrelevant discussion about children with allergies and phobias at the school (which were never the issue and are therefore irrelevant to the whole discussion).

I'm also glad that TJ (ILGHAUS) is so active in this thread as she has a very great deal of knowledge regarding all kinds of Service Dogs and is probably the most knowledgeable person on this board when it comes to Service Dogs and Service Dog laws.



> They sited 2 reasons, one Andrew is unable to handle the dog, which we proved false by the way, Andrew can control the dog, when in a Seizure the dog performs exactly as she is trained to, never leaving Andrew or wandering. When not in a Seizure the dog does exactly what its trained to do, be near him, and observe him.


I am curious whether you have addressed the possibility of attending school as a three-unit Service Dog team, which would consist of Andrew, his Service Dog, and an adult handler (your wife, for example, if she would be available during school hours) rather than having just Andrew and his Service Dog? 



> The final denial reason is they have teachers in place that can perform all functions the dog can, when asked if the child was blind and had a seeing eye dog would that be allowed, their response was "No we have blind children in school now and none have a service dog because our teachers can see for them."
> 
> Wrong answer, and illegal,


As TJ has pointed out, case law has shown that this is not, in fact, illegal or in violation of the law. Because schools fall under Title II and not Title III of the law, they are able to deny a Service Dog if a student's aide that is assigned to him can fill the same functions as the dog. 

In the case of a blind student, if there is an aide with the student throughout the school day, then the dog would not be required.


----------



## DharmasMom

Ah. Thank you. Apparently the magnet sets it off in between the times it is programmed for if is needed. Makes sense.


----------



## codmaster

paulag1955 said:


> If this were a guide dog for a blind child, do you think another child's allergy should be allowed to take precedence?


If we say no, then the logical question is why should this child's needs take precedence?

The school system is caught in the middle of a no win situation, it seems!


----------



## codmaster

Hansel & Gretel said:


> The ADA law states (in so many words) that a service dog trumps someones allergies.


In other words, "the needs of the one over the needs of the many"?

Sounds kind of like Startrekian in reverse!


----------



## codmaster

Hansel & Gretel said:


> The difference here is the ruling doesn't require anything. No money, no elevators, no special construction...just compliance with the law.


 
And a total disregard for the potential needs (rights?) of the many other students that the school also has to serve!

BTW, can the child control the dog? Or do you think that the teacher of the class should also be responsible for that as well?


----------



## codmaster

Stevenzachsmom said:


> My sons' needs require little or no financing either. I did not ask them to put in an elevator. I asked them to move all of his classes to the main level. I explained that a fall down the steps could kill him. School system still didn't care, so I threatened legal action and called in some bigwigs from the county. Finally, the school agreed to move my sons' classes. Oh - But I still needed that letter signed by the doctor saying that a fall down the steps could kill him.


Do you think that the school system should just take anyones word that their kid needed some special treatment? 

You may be totally honest and fair and all that but do you think every parent would be so fair in asking for special treatment for their precious child?

If it is supposed to be some unique medical condition that justifies special treatment then it is entirely reasonable that a medical expert (i.e. Dr.) should certify that there in fact is a medical condition that needs special treatment.


----------



## Liesje

codmaster said:


> Do you think that the school system should just take anyones word that their kid needed some special treatment?


That's not what happens though. The parent doesn't just waltz into the principal's office and demand this or that and all the wishes are granted. There are set processes for determining the needs of the child and how the school will meet them. My husband is going through this process right now. He has a special ed degree but currently teaches second grade and has a child in his class that has been "mainstreamed" but has some pretty severe emotional and behavioral problems. Based on the diagnoses of his Dr's and therapists, the parents, the special ed teacher or parapro, etc develop the IEP for the child. I don't think any school is obligated to do something that a parent demands simply because the parent demands it. The child in m husband's class has a mother who demands he remain mainstreamed in a normal classroom but the child is extremely disruptive and has displayed behavior that is dangerous to himself and the other children, hence everyone currently working on his IEP and coming up with a better solution for the child. The mother is not going to get everything she wants because frankly it's not what is best for the child and his behavior is not acceptable in the classroom in fairness to all the other students.


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## AbbyK9

codmaster - I think you should probably read all of the posts in this discussion since most of your questions have already been addressed. We've also already established there are NO issues with allergic children that are preventing this Service Dog from coming to this school, and that this was not one of the reasons the school has denied the dog.


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## Hansel & Gretel

AbbyK9 said:


> Again, like I said above, I would like to see what their policy and guidelines are. We can argue from here until the sun goes down there there's a "policy allowing Service Dogs" but we can't discuss why the dog in question has not been allowed unless we actually see what the policy states and what requirements it lays down for a dog to be allowed (or not allowed) in the classroom.
> 
> So far, we have established that the school is not violating the law because schools do not fall under the ADA, they fall under Title II. And we've established that there is a policy and that the school says the child does not meet the criteria to have a Service Dog in school - which is actually very common and can be addressed by the parents through an appeal to the Department of Education, which is where such complaints go.
> 
> But we've not established WHY the school says the boy cannot have the dog in school. We also don't know exactly what their policy regarding Service Dogs is. But it seems like a lot of people are jumping to conclusions that this is because the dog is a German Shepherd or that the school is not willing to make reasonable accommodations.


I have reread this thread and I admit I didn't understand what you were saying here. I thought you were saying we don't know if there is a policy allowing service dogs in school, not what the SD policy is. Forgive me for repeating myself, I thought you weren't getting it when it was me who wasn't getting what you were saying.

I am glad to see this thread take a turn to a productive discussion.

I have read but haven't had time to find, that the DOJ understands ADA to extend to schools and they have amended the law to specifically state such. 

Fairfax seems to be insisting that the boys teachers can perform the same function as the dog while his parents insist they cannot. 

I hope that public exposure and pressure will force the school to admit that the dog can do something the teachers cannot. 

I cannot help but wonder why they are being so stubborn.

John


----------



## codmaster

AbbyK9 said:


> codmaster - I think you should probably read all of the posts in this discussion since most of your questions have already been addressed. We've also already established there are NO issues with allergic children that are preventing this Service Dog from coming to this school, and that this was not one of the reasons the school has denied the dog.


And there won't be next year either, right?

And what should the school do if there were? 

the school has to think of the big picture even if the parents only care about their child, of course.


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## AbbyK9

> Fairfax seems to be insisting that the boys teachers can perform the same function as the dog while his parents insist they cannot.


I think there is a point where the school and parents are misunderstanding on another in regards to what can and cannot be done by the dog or aide, and I think it has to do with the difference in detecting a seizure vs. responding a seizure.

It sounds to me like the school assumes that the seizures are pretty clear cut and easily identifiable as being seizures. That they are what most people think of as a "seizure" from having seen one in the movies. At that point, if the seizures are obvious, an aide could respond to the seizure by passing a magnetic device over the boy's implant - the same thing the dog does - to lessen the seizure. And at that point, the school could clearly argue that, since a human can do it, the dog would not be needed.

From what I understand, the boy's seizures sometimes can't even be detected by his parents because they are not "obvious" seizures. That's where seizure detection would come in and that is something the dog can do but a human aide would not be able to do. The dog can do this because dogs can smell / sense the change in the human body when a seizure happens, just like dogs can smell the changes that occur when someone who is diabetic has high or low blood sugar and a Service Dog trained to detect that and respond to it.

The big problem with most Service Dogs is that they need to do trained, demonstrable tasks. I believe at least three of them. I don't know whether the law considers alerting to seizures a "demonstrable" task since it only happens when a seizure occurs, but the dog should also be trained to do things other than alert that can be demonstrated on command. For example, some seizure dogs serve as mobility dogs for people who can be unstable after having had a seizure; some are taught to fetch medication, etc.


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## AbbyK9

> And there won't be next year either, right?
> 
> And what should the school do if there were?
> 
> the school has to think of the big picture even if the parents only care about their child, of course.


Again, the reason the school denied this Service Dog has NOTHING to do with allergies at all. It was not one of the reasons the dog was denied. So even if the school is "thinking of the big picture", allergies of other students played no part in their decision.

(And if there are students with allergies next year, there are other classes in the same grade these students can attend. The student in question would be in a limited, small class and not in the main classroom with 20+ other students in his grade.)


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## Tropism

Zoeys mom said:


> What if little Suzy is allergic to the point of anaphylactic shock when exposed to dog dander? My father is so allergic to cats he can not even come into secondary contact with anything a cat or cat owner has touched without suffering immediate asthma attacks and anaphylaxsis is his epi pen is not near. Little Suzy couldn't eat in the cafeteria, go to the library, art, music, PE rooms, or be in contact with other students exposed to these rooms. Is that fair?


If you have to worry about Little Suzy swelling up and dying because Little Timmy rolled around with his dog before coming to school and she gets a whiff of second-hand dander, then Little Suzy shouldn't be in class.


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## Tropism

codmaster said:


> And there won't be next year either, right?
> 
> And what should the school do if there were?
> 
> the school has to think of the big picture even if the parents only care about their child, of course.



So why should one kid's problem trump another's?


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## Angelo John Stevens

*Stay on Topic*

There are almost 14 pages of comments here, clearly and I will state it again Allergies/Fears are not the issue here, that was never an issue and had it ever been one, already clearly posted why it can't be an issue.


The dog is Prescribed by a Nuero that has been doing what he does for 50+ years published in journals, and highly regarded in DC, he states in no uncertain terms that Andrew has a life threatining illness, and despite 4 powerful drugs is not responding to either that or the VNS (VNS gives eletrical current every 5 minutes) The dog trained to swipe magnet, call 911 and parents to be with and lay near in the effect of a seizure or detect one before he has one is highly trained.

Tether training, if anyone recalls is one way for pets and another for service dogs, she will not pull from it, when seated so is she, etc again all covered.

I want to make sure we are staying on target here, Andrew and Alaya meet the requirements and have the certifications to be a service team, we have stated as much numerous times, the school wants an ADI certification stating both Andrew and Alaya are certifyed by them, otherwise we can suck an egg, course they said it nicer.

Alaya and Andrew already have certs, from the agency we went though, which is NOT a non profit ADI is a non profit and its members must be as well, we spoke with ADI directly the CEO and the Secretary, both had no idea VA schools were using their name, regulations and their tests as a standard, nor do they condone their use, its for their ADI organization only and its members (the ones that train dogs under their guide) It is in no way a law or a requirement its a guideline their members must follow.

Our trainer can not join ADI, however he has their permission to use the test to satisfy the school, we however do not agree with this and thats the standpoint now, we have all the requirements the school asked for.

They are still stuck on being able to perform the tasks, that the dog can, and yes we have demonstrated her to the school members present for the meeting.

I refuse to treat my son and his companion as a constant show and tell to prove further what my wife and I already know, she can save his life, she reduces his seizures, and shes the best thing to happen for him in a long time.

This is not about allergies or fears, and frankly people need to let that dumb argument go since it was never a releveant issue in the first place.


----------



## ILGHAUS

Mr. Stevens, thank you for your patience with my questions. I was asking to educate myself and to be able to discuss this situation with more knowledge on my part.

I have been passing on your comments as you gave permission to do to another group that I belong to. In answer to your posts here I have been told that I have permission in turn to post the following which was the remarks given to SDC.

_Kirsten Richards, owner of Service Dog Central_
_SD trainer and handler, Advocate for Service Dog Teams_
_Director of ADAP (Assistance Dog Advocacy Project)_

1. A tether is necessary for the safety of the dog and handler should the handler have a seizure. The purpose is primarily to make it clear to bystanders that the two belong together and secondarily to prevent the dog from wandering off. Dogs are not machines, and though training should not fail very often, one also shouldn't take unnecessary chances. When my dog alerts I tie her leash firmly to my wrist so we can't become separated. There is a difference between tethering the dog to the handler for control of the dog, and tethering the child to the dog for control of the child. The human should always be the ultimate decision maker in the team.

2. Seizures don't last that long. The period of time when an otherwise qualified handler would be unable to fully steward their dog would be a few minutes typically. If the dog is tethered to the handler, there's not much trouble he could get into. There's a risk someone could come and remove the dog or abuse the dog, but there's also a risk that could happen to the handler. There may be a postictal period of disorientation, but my personal experience has been that I do decently well stewarding my dog, even if I can't read, speak or figure out where I am. So much of our communication and interaction is automatic I don't have to think about it or process it. My dogs are fed, watered, and toileted even when I can't remember to feed myself simply because they ask and I respond, even when postictal. I've been suckered out of extra meals and cookies that way but that's the worst that happens.

3. You reach a point of no return where you aren't able to activate the magnet yourself. In such situations it's good to have a dog back up. It's a task that isn't difficult for the dog to perform and it's not hard to train it reliably. I don't use one myself, but have a friend who does and has had good results with her dog activating it for her.

Even supposing the teachers were capable of doing what the dog can do, which they can't, that alone would not be sufficient cause to exclude the service dog. They'd need some other compelling reason, such as a child that must be in the same class room that is dangerously allergic to the dog. In such a situation you weigh the costs and benefits on both sides to make a decision.

In the Cave case, the reason they wanted the dog in school was for "bonding." That's not really a legitimate reason to take a dog, even a service dog, to school. You can bond at home. In this current case, it sounds to me like the dog is expected to work and to carry out specific functions that mitigate the child's disability, functions which must be carried out even at school. That's different.

I'm generally opposed to children having service dogs and particularly to service dogs in schools. However, when the child is old enough and mature enough to take on sole responsibility for the dog's well-being during the school day, is able to control the dog by himself, needs the dog to perform specific tasks so he can go to school, and there is no compelling reason to deny the dog (such as a life threatening allergy and no other way to accommodation both children), then the dog should be permitted to do his job, even at school. A four year old child can't pull it off. Some 12-year-olds could. If this child can handle the dog, if the dog mitigates, and if there is no direct threat or fundamental alteration, then it should be permitted.

I also have to respond to the comment about teachers seeing for blind students. That's absurd. Why then should the children read or do math in school at all when there is a teacher there who could do it for them? They do it to learn so that some day they can become fully functioning, independent adults. Do they also deny wheelchairs because the teachers can walk for paralyzed students? Part of the process of living with a disability and part of the reason for mainstreaming kids with disabilities, is to give them increased opportunities for learning how to manage their disabilities in social settings as well as in workplace settings, both of which a school can model like no other institution in a child's life. "A teacher can do it for him" might be a reasonable response when you're talking about a toddler who needs little real independence. How much independence does a toddler need who can't be left home alone while the parents go out, who can't prepare his own food and feed himself, who can't safely be let out of a parent's sight in a public place even just to run to the bathroom? A 12-year-old ought to have the dignity of going to the toilet without a teacher in attendance. A 12-year-old does need a certain level of independence. 

Relying on a dog to perform certain tasks is not the same as being dependent on a human. The difference is stewardship. The handler is ultimately responsible for caring for the dog, even though the dog is trained to help him. It's a type of partnership, a symbiotic relationship. That is not the relationship between teacher and student. In a relationship with a service dog, the human handler is incharge and makes the key decisions. The human handler is responsible for the team and faces the consequences for poor choices (which is how he learns to make better choices). No child makes independent decisions when under the supervision of a teacher. No child over-rides a teacher to stop in the hall and say "hi" to Sally or get a drink at the water fountain. 

No teacher drops everything to run a kid to the restroom when he needs to go because it would mean leaving the rest of the class room unsupervised. But a dog doesn't mind and has nothing else to worry about because he's being well stewarded by his handler. No teacher can be as attentive to a single student as a service dog can. If she's like most teachers she's got at least 20 other kids to manage too, while the service dog has only one to concern himself over.


----------



## Angelo John Stevens

*Ilghaus*

Awesome, well thought out educated and clearly well versed in Service Dogs, what a great response thank you ILGHAUS for sharing this, I am deeply sorry if my words offended you in any way as that is not the attention, I do want to make sure we stay on target, which clearly your post has done. I would be very interested in cooresponance with _Kirsten Richards if you could forward her my contact information I would appreciate it greatly [email protected]._

_The biggest issue I think we face is education and understanding service dogs in the FCPS system, I believe they are ill informed and have little to go on other then heresay and baseless information, Heck my wife and I barely understood them couple years back, once we started studying them, and learning of various training techniques we picked a trainer based on interview process and some google work._

_We still had to be approved, that was hard as well, we had to open up our life to a trainer and Andrews medical history, so in turn the trainer could pick a dog that would best fit Andrew._

_if you look at both videos, Fox News and the one we made with some live feed of Andrew waking up, you will see he and the dog are well bonded and she responds well, and listens well, shes very attentive to his needs, and responds accordingly._

_The other key is this ADI, they have no care to do anything with Andrews dog because their member agencys have nothing to do with her training, each agency trains different most are non profit, the one we went though is not._

_ADI does not permit the use of its name or test my FCPS or any other school for that matter, and until we went to the media and started making phone calls they had no idea it was being used, they are of course looking into it._

_ADIs members each train service dogs, and they train based on the stadards and rules by ADI, the trainer we used is not and can not be a member, as such he is not subject to ADI nor can ADI allow him to be._

_However we still used their test, which both Andrew and Alaya passed because ADI made an exception, in the meantime ADI is looking into what exactly the VDOE is using of theirs, and why they are using it without ADI permission._

_So right now its a waiting game, we do meet with DOJ Tuesday, to further and speed the injunction to force the school to allow the service dog, again and I state this clearly, our main goal is getting Andrew back into school with his dog, the last recourse is a law suit and one we are trying to avoid, this is not because we have no money to sue, which we do not have btw, but because its not fair to residents that pay taxes, its also only a last resort, we do have an attorney lined up SHOULD it require a lawsuit, and they can have all the money, this is not about money anymore its principle right and wrong, and we are right, and they are wrong._

_I can only imagine what would be happening if we decided to just take the no as an answer and left it at that, the fact we stood up and said **** no thats not right was a win in itself._

_Many people stay quiet simply because its easier, well I never did like easy._

_Love you all and merry xmas, I do pray your new years are filled with joy and peace._

_Angelo John Stevens._






ILGHAUS said:


> Mr. Stevens, thank you for your patience with my questions. I was asking to educate myself and to be able to discuss this situation with more knowledge on my part.
> 
> I have been passing on your comments as you gave permission to do to another group that I belong to. In answer to your posts here I have been told that I have permission in turn to post the following which was the remarks given to SDC.
> 
> _Kirsten Richards, owner of Service Dog Central_
> _SD trainer and handler, Advocate for Service Dog Teams_
> _Director of ADAP (Assistance Dog Advocacy Project)_
> 
> 1. A tether is necessary for the safety of the dog and handler should the handler have a seizure. The purpose is primarily to make it clear to bystanders that the two belong together and secondarily to prevent the dog from wandering off. Dogs are not machines, and though training should not fail very often, one also shouldn't take unnecessary chances. When my dog alerts I tie her leash firmly to my wrist so we can't become separated. There is a difference between tethering the dog to the handler for control of the dog, and tethering the child to the dog for control of the child. The human should always be the ultimate decision maker in the team.
> 
> 2. Seizures don't last that long. The period of time when an otherwise qualified handler would be unable to fully steward their dog would be a few minutes typically. If the dog is tethered to the handler, there's not much trouble he could get into. There's a risk someone could come and remove the dog or abuse the dog, but there's also a risk that could happen to the handler. There may be a postictal period of disorientation, but my personal experience has been that I do decently well stewarding my dog, even if I can't read, speak or figure out where I am. So much of our communication and interaction is automatic I don't have to think about it or process it. My dogs are fed, watered, and toileted even when I can't remember to feed myself simply because they ask and I respond, even when postictal. I've been suckered out of extra meals and cookies that way but that's the worst that happens.
> 
> 3. You reach a point of no return where you aren't able to activate the magnet yourself. In such situations it's good to have a dog back up. It's a task that isn't difficult for the dog to perform and it's not hard to train it reliably. I don't use one myself, but have a friend who does and has had good results with her dog activating it for her.
> 
> Even supposing the teachers were capable of doing what the dog can do, which they can't, that alone would not be sufficient cause to exclude the service dog. They'd need some other compelling reason, such as a child that must be in the same class room that is dangerously allergic to the dog. In such a situation you weigh the costs and benefits on both sides to make a decision.
> 
> In the Cave case, the reason they wanted the dog in school was for "bonding." That's not really a legitimate reason to take a dog, even a service dog, to school. You can bond at home. In this current case, it sounds to me like the dog is expected to work and to carry out specific functions that mitigate the child's disability, functions which must be carried out even at school. That's different.
> 
> I'm generally opposed to children having service dogs and particularly to service dogs in schools. However, when the child is old enough and mature enough to take on sole responsibility for the dog's well-being during the school day, is able to control the dog by himself, needs the dog to perform specific tasks so he can go to school, and there is no compelling reason to deny the dog (such as a life threatening allergy and no other way to accommodation both children), then the dog should be permitted to do his job, even at school. A four year old child can't pull it off. Some 12-year-olds could. If this child can handle the dog, if the dog mitigates, and if there is no direct threat or fundamental alteration, then it should be permitted.
> 
> I also have to respond to the comment about teachers seeing for blind students. That's absurd. Why then should the children read or do math in school at all when there is a teacher there who could do it for them? They do it to learn so that some day they can become fully functioning, independent adults. Do they also deny wheelchairs because the teachers can walk for paralyzed students? Part of the process of living with a disability and part of the reason for mainstreaming kids with disabilities, is to give them increased opportunities for learning how to manage their disabilities in social settings as well as in workplace settings, both of which a school can model like no other institution in a child's life. "A teacher can do it for him" might be a reasonable response when you're talking about a toddler who needs little real independence. How much independence does a toddler need who can't be left home alone while the parents go out, who can't prepare his own food and feed himself, who can't safely be let out of a parent's sight in a public place even just to run to the bathroom? A 12-year-old ought to have the dignity of going to the toilet without a teacher in attendance. A 12-year-old does need a certain level of independence.
> 
> Relying on a dog to perform certain tasks is not the same as being dependent on a human. The difference is stewardship. The handler is ultimately responsible for caring for the dog, even though the dog is trained to help him. It's a type of partnership, a symbiotic relationship. That is not the relationship between teacher and student. In a relationship with a service dog, the human handler is incharge and makes the key decisions. The human handler is responsible for the team and faces the consequences for poor choices (which is how he learns to make better choices). No child makes independent decisions when under the supervision of a teacher. No child over-rides a teacher to stop in the hall and say "hi" to Sally or get a drink at the water fountain.
> 
> No teacher drops everything to run a kid to the restroom when he needs to go because it would mean leaving the rest of the class room unsupervised. But a dog doesn't mind and has nothing else to worry about because he's being well stewarded by his handler. No teacher can be as attentive to a single student as a service dog can. If she's like most teachers she's got at least 20 other kids to manage too, while the service dog has only one to concern himself over.


----------



## codmaster

Tropism said:


> If you have to worry about Little Suzy swelling up and dying because Little Timmy rolled around with his dog before coming to school and she gets a whiff of second-hand dander, then Little Suzy shouldn't be in class.


Nice attitude, Tropism! 

One could also say if the little boy can't function in class, can't control his dog then HE shouldn't be in class, couldn't one?

Guess it depends on what side (or needy child) one looks at the school class from, doesn't it?


----------



## Mrs.K

@Codemaster:

I would have never thought I hear what you just said out of an American mouth. 

Seriously, why don't we pack'em all up and transport them off in a camp so they are no longer an inconvenience to all the other kids. 

That boy has RIGHTS as well and sometimes you can't think in a bigger picture because we all have the right to exist and co-exist. 

That boy has a right to go to school like everybody else and singling him out and denying that right because he is an inconvenience to others is more than just discrimination. If he needs that dog to detect the seizures than that shouldn't be denied because clearly that dog is there to safe his life! 

If we continue to go that route, you know where that will lead us? 

You know what will happen if we start discriminating disabled and special need children and denying them to take their service dogs, which they need, to take to school or other places? 

We HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY for special need children and we HAVE to make sure that they are NOT excluded from ANY activities at all. They have hard enough in life already. They already have a disadvantage and singling them out as well as denying them their rights IS NOT THE ANSWER nor is it an option!


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## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> @Codemaster:
> I would have never thought I hear what you just said out of an American mouth.
> 
> *An "American" mouth? - showing a little bias yourself, are you? *
> *BTW, how do you know that I have an "American" mouth? Aren't you jumping the gun a little here?*
> 
> Seriously, why don't we pack'em all up and transport them off in a camp so they are no longer an inconvenience to all the other kids.
> *You really want to do this? I am surprised at your idea!*
> That boy has RIGHTS as well and sometimes you can't think in a bigger picture because we all have the right to exist and co-exist. *??????*
> That boy has a right to go to school like everybody else and singling him out and denying that right because he is an inconvenience *(Could be a lot more than that in a few cases, couldn't it)* to others is more than just discrimination. If he needs that dog to detect the seizures than that shouldn't be denied because clearly that dog is there to safe his life! If we continue to go that route, you know where that will lead us? *No, where?*
> You know what will happen if we start discriminating disabled and special need children and denying them to take their service dogs, which they need, to take to school or other places? *No, please fill me in - what will happen? *
> *What about the rights of the rest of the kids, if there is a conflict - do the others not also have rights?*
> We HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY for special need children and we HAVE to make sure that they are NOT excluded from ANY activities at all.
> 
> *How about if they are physically incapable of doing something? Should we change what the other kids are doing to accomodate the child?*
> They have hard enough in life already. They already have a disadvantage and singling them out as well as denying them their rights IS NOT THE ANSWER nor is it an option!
> 
> *Can the child control the dog so that the dog is not a threat to any other kid or any other dog? Do you agree that this must also be checked or not?*


 
Mrs. K,

First, the name is Codmaster (no "E", I am of course assuming that you were talking to me here)

Second, why don't you read what I wrote more slowly and try it again. I was responding to a previous posting in which the poster basically said that "the heck with one child, the other one took precedence and if the first one couldn't deal with a dog (allergic) the they shouldn't go to school"! How is the school supposed to decide which child should get special treatment here? That is the issue.

Sounds like maybe your tirade should have been directed at them, don't you think?

What I feel is that the rights of the rest of the kids have to be weighed along with the right of the one individual. 

Do you disagree with this, and feel that the rights of a single individual always come first ahead of the rights of the rest of the kids?

Then what does the school (or society) do when the "rights" of two individuals conflict?

Do we flip a coin?


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## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> Mrs. K,
> 
> First, the name is Codmaster (no "E", I am of course assuming that you were talking to me here)
> 
> Second, why don't you read what I wrote more slowly and try it again. I was responding to a previous posting in which the poster basically said that "the heck with one child, the other one took precedence and if the first one couldn't deal with a dog (allergic) the they shouldn't go to school"! How is the school supposed to decide which child should get special treatment here? That is the issue.
> 
> Sounds like maybe your tirade should have been directed at them, don't you think?
> 
> What I feel is that the rights of the rest of the kids have to be weighed along with the right of the one individual.
> 
> Do you disagree with this, and feel that the rights of a single individual always come first ahead of the rights of the rest of the kids?
> 
> Then what does the school (or society) do when the "rights" of two individuals conflict?
> 
> Do we flip a coin?


No, there is always a way to arrange things, all it takes is flexibility of everybody involved. The problem is that most people try to take the easy way out and are not flexible enough.


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## Angelo John Stevens

*To CodMaster*

Valid concerns, which of course have already been over bearingly addressed.

If you refer to allergies or fears, there are none for this instance, school or class, so that is moot.

The dog does not bite, does not growl, does not stink, does not shed, does not beg, does not releive itself other then outside and on specific time schedules, do does it eat or drink off that schedule.

The rights of other kids are being met, as such according to the face book page and the petition being signed from the parents whos kids also attend this school, they have no concerns.

Great thing about a school on a military post is that almost all the kids attending are children of Soldiers, and I have not met a Soldier from Fort Belvoir that does not already know Andrew personally, or that has an issue with his service dog.

Currently the School board meets again on Januarary 6th, we are planning a silent protects with banners and sign up sheets, we are scheduling a silent protest and speaking at the board later that evening.

The one factor right now is FCPS believes they can do what the dog does and thus disqualify it as a need for him, we the parents and his doctor believe otherwise.

Andrew and Alaya have all the certifications they require to be a service dog and a handler, not a question anymore

no kid or parent so far has stated they do not want the dog, in fact its the oppisite, everyone we speak to online and in person on this post that has kids in the school support andrew having his service dog, again not an issue.

Law is pretty clear, he will have the dog.

The problem lies with education, and that is apparent on almost all these forums, there are always the ones that have no idea what the law is, what a service dog is, and what can and can be used to exclude a service dog, what FCPS is using is not a valid reason, and therefore illegal.

Hope this helps, whether you are American or not, Andrew and his family are its a Military Soldiers child on a military post with a school that has 98% military children, its ironic if you think about it.

We have a few petitions going around getting signed by the members on this post, lets see what the school has to say about that.


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## AgileGSD

selzer said:


> The ADA does not require the dog to have any special training or that the individual be questioned on what service the dog provides, the dogs training, etc. Something about how people have a right to privacy, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> So the way you want it, my five year old could take our pet Sassy to school with her every day. Sassy could wear a funky vest and snap and snarl at children as they file by her. That would be ok.


 This is not true and i don't think it has been discussed. Business owners are within their rights to ask a person with a disruptive service dog to leave, just as they could ask a person who's behavior was unacceptable to leave. There is no reason to think the same would not be true of service dogs in schools.


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## Jax08

Wow...all these posts...I skimmed over the topics so maybe it's already been said and I missed it.

Here's my understanding of seizure alert dogs from an article I read many, many years ago.

1) These are highly trained animals that are trained to not only alert people to oncoming seizures but to also never leave their person. They don't wander off when a seizure starts, they stay with the person. Nobody, adult or child, is going to be "in control" of the animal at that time.

2) They increase the response time for the person because the dogs can sense an oncoming seizure long before the person can. It has something to do with something the person is giving off (scent, pheromones, etc). A school can not assign a person to perform this duty as a person can NOT sense the oncoming seizure as a dog can. Not just any dog can be a seizure alert dog. Not all dogs have the ability to sense the seizures.

3) Let's discuss the asthma/allergy ramifications. I have a daughter with asthma. Been in the ICU more than once with her. All medical doctors have told me people do NOT "outgrow" asthma. If you have it, you have it. As you grow, your airways become larger and better able to handle constriction. Allergies are a terrible thing that can be just as deadly as a seizure. If a service dog were brought in for another student, then all parents should be notified so they can work out a COMPROMISE to ensure all children can get an education....regardless of what the law says.

4) Service dogs are kept very, very clean to minimize hair, dander, smell. That shouldn't even be a topic in this discussion. These dogs are trained, temperament tested, trained again...why is any of that even a concern? Are people really that ignorant on what it takes to be a service dog?

I hope Andrew and his family prevail in this fight. Andrew deserves as much of a normal childhood as is possible.


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## Mrs.K

> Let's discuss the asthma/allergy ramifications. I have a daughter with asthma. Been in the ICU more than once with her. All medical doctors have told me people do NOT "outgrow" asthma.


With my sister we were told that it'll either go away or it'll get worse.


as for the rest: I totally agree. I am actually surprised all these things came up on here. Especially on this forum you'd think people wouldn't be that ignorant because they do educate themselves. You'd think that especially on here you'd find more supporters on service dogs. 

The points you brought up, smell, dander, hair and the training part... shouldn't be an issue at all. This is NOT a pet. It's a working dog with a very serious job, highly skilled and trained.


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## Jax08

Not to change the topic from Andrew's problem...

I think whether asthma "goes away" depends on the trigger. IN the case of my ex-stepmom it was stress. She left my father and no more asthma attacks! My daughter seems to be cold air (or the change in air from warm to cold) so allergies that she has, which in my understanding can change as you grow older, are not the biggest factor in her case. But that doesn't mean the asthma has gone away. It just means the trigger is no longer the trigger or that the airways have increased to a size that they can handle some restriction without a noticeable affect. But, I was told by the specialist, as you age your asthma can act up again. My mother had asthma when she was a child. No problems with it as a teenager or adult but now that she's heading towards her senior years, she has problems in high humidity and heat.


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## AbbyK9

Why are people still responding to codmaster on threads? He pretty much comes in, starts a bunch of poop that is largely irrelevant, and then either gets the thread locked or leaves.


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## Xeph

S'why they're on ignore for me xD I am interested at all the useful information that's come about in this thread though


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## Mrs.K

AbbyK9 said:


> Why are people still responding to codmaster on threads? He pretty much comes in, starts a bunch of poop that is largely irrelevant, and then either gets the thread locked or leaves.


Yeah, I should have known better...


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## ILGHAUS

Quote:
The ADA does not require the dog to have any special training or that the individual be questioned on what service the dog provides, the dogs training, etc. Something about how people have a right to privacy, etc, etc, etc.

So the way you want it, my five year old could take our pet Sassy to school with her every day. Sassy could wear a funky vest and snap and snarl at children as they file by her. That would be ok.


Well yes and no to this posting. While the ADA (the Act) itself does not address Service Dogs thereby does not require any special training one of the government agencies that were put in charge of overseeing the ADA, the U.S. Dept. of Justice, does require that a SD be trained to mitigate the handler's disability. And in many cases the handler *may* be qustioned about the dog. And more often then some people may think, the question of if a dog meets the guidelines of being a SD will be determined in the court system. 

Unless a five year old was legally (not just medically) disabled any dog she handled would not be a SD. And no it would not be OK for a SD to snap and snarl at any person or any animal. 

SDs must follow local and state animal laws such as up-to-date on any legally required vacs and follow local leash laws - some areas do state that a SD may be off-leash IF required to be so in performing a specific task for their disabled handler. A SD must be registered if local law require owner's to register their dogs and must have any tags that are required for any dog residing in a specific area.


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## Angelo John Stevens

Correct;
Few things to touch on, Courts and DOJ can ask for certs on both dog and handler, and they must be provided, Schools, business's etc can not ask for them, they are allowed I believe three questions.

are you disabled
is that a service dog
what does it do

They are not allowed to ask for proof, the dog is not required to wear special equipment, however most people that have legitiment service dogs have the back pack and all the documents in that pack at all times (More so if police need to be invovled to enforce the law)

When I state Andrew and Alaya have their certs I mean that in the sense that Alayas cert with her 1800 hours of Public Access Training and Andrews Cert on his ability to control Alaya in public settings.

From the day we got Alaya every public setting we have been do we have gotten statements of those seeing them together, those will help in future arguments, should they arrise.

We have been to the movies recently loud smelly kids adults old young etc all near the dog no issues no allergies, no fears and almost everyone knew it was a service dog (some reconized andrew and alaya from the news)

Alaya is tethered because its simply more realistic, her training is on a tether so when it moves she moves its attached to andrew so when he and it move she moves, she will never go beyond the tether, its also a safe guard a just in case, remember its still a dog, anything is possible even if its slim, I am a realist.

Alaya activating Andrews VNS is not an issue, we would prefer it as often as possible as would the doctor, there is no real evidence yet that she is over activating it, theres a system that checks to see how many times and which magnet is activating the VNS.

andrew and alaya are still in training for life, every day we train, regardless of how good she does, we still do more, because its a constant, we must teach and expand her duties everyday small steps but we are doing it.

We are organizing a silent candle vigil for Andrew and his dog at the schools next board meeting Jan 6th at 6pm in falls church, more information can be gotten by emailing me if you wish to attend [email protected]

we are registering to speak a the meeting with Andrew and alaya, while the other parent remainbs outside in a vigil, please contact us if you would like to attend.

Thanks again to all the responses, 





ILGHAUS said:


> Quote:
> The ADA does not require the dog to have any special training or that the individual be questioned on what service the dog provides, the dogs training, etc. Something about how people have a right to privacy, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> So the way you want it, my five year old could take our pet Sassy to school with her every day. Sassy could wear a funky vest and snap and snarl at children as they file by her. That would be ok.
> 
> 
> Well yes and no to this posting. While the ADA (the Act) itself does not address Service Dogs thereby does not require any special training one of the government agencies that were put in charge of overseeing the ADA, the U.S. Dept. of Justice, does require that a SD be trained to mitigate the handler's disability. And in many cases the handler *may* be qustioned about the dog. And more often then some people may think, the question of if a dog meets the guidelines of being a SD will be determined in the court system.
> 
> Unless a five year old was legally (not just medically) disabled any dog she handled would not be a SD. And no it would not be OK for a SD to snap and snarl at any person or any animal.
> 
> SDs must follow local and state animal laws such as up-to-date on any legally required vacs and follow local leash laws - some areas do state that a SD may be off-leash IF required to be so in performing a specific task for their disabled handler. A SD must be registered if local law require owner's to register their dogs and must have any tags that are required for any dog residing in a specific area.


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## codmaster

AbbyK9 said:


> Why are people still responding to codmaster on threads? He pretty much comes in, starts a bunch of poop that is largely irrelevant, and then either gets the thread locked or leaves.


If you can't say something nice..........


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## ILGHAUS

Mr. Stevens, when you were using the term *certs or certifications* I was reading it to mean that you had in hand certifications as in a piece of paper stating something like "This is to certify that XXXXX has met the qualifications of XXXX agency". From your last posting I see that you were using the term as a general statement that both your son and his SD were trained to meet the requirements of the law. This is where some confusion was brought about on my part and why I was questioning you on what organization *certified* your son as a handler etc. etc. So now that that is clear in my head I'm good to go .... 

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And to everyone in general, I dislike the way the current program used by this forum handles quotes from a previous post. 
Example --
Quote:
Originally Posted by *ILGHAUS*  
_Quote:
The ADA does not require the dog to have any special training or that the individual be questioned on what service the dog provides, the dogs training, etc. Something about how people have a right to privacy, etc, etc, etc.

So the way you want it, my five year old could take our pet Sassy to school with her every day. Sassy could wear a funky vest and snap and snarl at children as they file by her. That would be ok._


Someone reading this (*Originally* Posted by *ILGHAUS*  ) in a post might think the quote was one that I made vrs. one I marked to make a comment on.


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## Angelo John Stevens

ILGHAUS;

by Certs or Certifications I do indeed mean a document from the agency 2 to be precise, one for Alaya one for Andrew and Alaya, this is not good enough for the school, evidently they will only accept ADI, which sadly is not possible, ADI or their affilliates were not the trainers of Alaya, and as such can not Certify her I should be getting a statement from ADI shortly that I will post here so others can fully understand.






ILGHAUS said:


> Mr. Stevens, when you were using the term *certs or certifications* I was reading it to mean that you had in hand certifications as in a piece of paper stating something like "This is to certify that XXXXX has met the qualifications of XXXX agency". From your last posting I see that you were using the term as a general statement that both your son and his SD were trained to meet the requirements of the law. This is where some confusion was brought about on my part and why I was questioning you on what organization *certified* your son as a handler etc. etc. So now that that is clear in my head I'm good to go ....
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> And to everyone in general, I dislike the way the current program used by this forum handles quotes from a previous post.
> Example --
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *ILGHAUS*
> _Quote:_
> _The ADA does not require the dog to have any special training or that the individual be questioned on what service the dog provides, the dogs training, etc. Something about how people have a right to privacy, etc, etc, etc._
> 
> _So the way you want it, my five year old could take our pet Sassy to school with her every day. Sassy could wear a funky vest and snap and snarl at children as they file by her. That would be ok._
> 
> 
> Someone reading this (*Originally* Posted by *ILGHAUS*  ) in a post might think the quote was one that I made vrs. one I marked to make a comment on.


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## ILGHAUS

Good golly - I was really mixed up there wasn't I? Anyway, I think I am now caught up correctly on the main details. :fingerscrossed: (_We can only hope_.)


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## Angelo John Stevens

*Time: *Thursday, January 6, 2011 · 6:00pm - 9:00pm
*Location:* School Board Office, 8115 Gatehouse Road, Suite 5400, Falls Church, VA 22042
*More Info:* Please do not block streets, traffic or people. This is a silent candle light vigil being covered by media. Andrew will be walking his service dog into the school board meeting to speak about service dogs and Andrews denial of his civil right guaranteed by the ADA (1990.)




http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/andrew-stevens-service-dog/


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## AbbyK9

> Few things to touch on, Courts and DOJ can ask for certs on both dog and handler, and they must be provided,* Schools, business's etc can not ask for them*, they are allowed I believe three questions.


Not that this is necessarily relevant to this case since Mr. Stevens stated that the school was provided with the certifications, doctor's medical notes, etc. However, to avoid confusion for others who are coming across this thread - The statement that schools and businesses can not ask for proof is not correct.

While *businesses* (Title III entities) can *not* ask for any proof of certification or other paperwork, such as a doctor's note, *schools* (Title II entities) *may indeed ask for them*. The reason for this is that a visit to a Title III entity - a restaurant, movie theater, store, etc. - is temporary and taking classes at a school or college, a Title II entity, is considered long-term. Schools are within their right to ask for certification of a Service Dog before allowing it in the school.



> They are not allowed to ask for proof, the dog is not required to wear special equipment,


Also, this. While there is no ADA requirement for dogs to be identified as Service Dogs, some State laws do require dogs to be identified. Some areas, for example, have special tags for Service Dogs that are required to be worn. Some areas - Virginia is one of them - require that Hearing Dogs are clearly identified by a blaze orange lead.

Here's what VA Law actually says, 



> E. Every totally or partially blind person shall have the right to be accompanied by a dog, in harness, trained as a guide dog, every deaf or hearing-impaired person shall have the right to be accompanied by a dog trained as a hearing dog on a blaze orange leash, and every mobility-impaired or otherwise disabled person shall have the right to be accompanied by a dog, trained as a service dog, in a harness, backpack, or vest identifying the dog as a trained service dog, in any of the places listed in subsection B without being required to pay an extra charge for the dog; provided that he shall be liable for any damage done to the premises or facilities by such dog.


You can find it here --> Virginia Assistance Animal/Guide Dog Laws


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## Angelo John Stevens

You missed one thing, which ever law provides the MOST protection is the law that must be followed, DOJ which also covers schools now, falls under that category, in which they are NOT allowed to ask, However its a bit more positive if that IS offered to them.

None of Andrews medical information other then the doctors note has ever been given to the school, only Alayas cert has been given to the school, Andrews and Alayas cert only rests in My/Alayas/Lawyers/DOJ hands and is not per DOJs request being given to the school.

I called them today after reading this before I replied, the school is not required to have either, simply stating we have them is enough under the law that protects us the most.

I wanted to make sure you knew this so that wrong information is not being given as fact.

Fact is no one but the law in the sense of law is allowed to ask for proof.


From The ADA, and DOJ
Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability.



Making note these also effect Title II and I as well, with the same requirements and regulations.


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## Jax08

Angelo - I find it very sad that you HAVE to know all of this. In our area, I've heard over and over from friends that they have had to fight to get the help they need for their children who are deaf, autistic, etc. It seems a lot of our schools do not want to deal with any special situations to help the children achieve an education. They seem to be caught up in rules and regulations that they have written up in the student handbook and can't adapt to anything outside the ordinary.


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## AbbyK9

I had a response written, but never mind. Obviously, the answers you're getting from the DOJ are different answers than the ones I am getting from the DOJ.


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## Lauri & The Gang

AbbyK9 said:


> In many cases, the argument is that, if a school can assign an aide to the student who can handle the same tasks as the Service Dog, then the dog is not needed while at school and would most likely be disruptive to the school.


While this doesn't pertain to this exact situation I'd like to tell you a story.

My niece has Downs Syndrome. She is a high-functioning DS child but also has several other problems - two of which are the fact that she is extremely noise sensitive and self-abusive. If she gets upset (for whatever reason) or scared she will start punching herself.

My sister and her DH recently added a new dog to the family - a Aussie/BC mix they rescued from a local shelter. The dog has been nothing short of a miracle.

Before the dog they had to try to restrain their daughter when she would start punching herself. This would just make her even more upset. Now, all they do is tell the dog "Go Find Jane" and the dogs runs over to her and starts licking her face.

This INSTANTLY calms her down and stops her self-abuse - EVERY time.

There's no way a PERSON could accomplish this for her.

The other thing they will be working with is to have the dog 'watch' their daughter at night so she can't leave the house. She will wake up at night and walk out of the house. They have to have locks on the inside of the doors (which isn't safe) to avoid her getting away. They are hoping the dog can be trained to alert them if she tries to leave the house or even restrain her from getting outside.

She has been in and out of several public schools (they don't want to deal with her outbursts and self-abuse) and even several "special" schools (one of which resorted to handcuffing her after a nasty outbreak - yeah, THAT helped her).

If a dog can help her try to life as much of a normal life as she possibly can - even at the cost of someone else not being able to go to THAT school (let them transfer) - I'm all for it.


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## Jax08

Lauri & The Gang said:


> If a dog can help her try to life as much of a normal life as she possibly can - even at the cost of someone else not being able to go to THAT school (let them transfer) - I'm all for it.


While I agree that every allowance should be made to allow her to have the dog with her, the attitude that the other kid can just transfer is ludicrous. I've looked into transferring my daughter to another school district. It costs just as much to pay tuition to send her to a different public school as it does to send her to a private school. The idea that someone would have to pay several thousand dollars per year, or move to a different school district, is not even remotely logical.


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## AbbyK9

Lauri - Please don't mistake that I stated the fact that this is WHY schools often believe that Service Dogs are not necessary in the classroom with me supporting or not supporting Service Dogs attending school with children. I was only stating that this is the most commonreason schools give when they deny Service Dogs, that the tasks done by the dog can be done by an aide.

I think it's great that your sister and BIL's new family pet is able to do wonderful things for their daughter and I would have no trouble accepting this dog (and its abilities) in a classroom setting if the dog meets all the requirements for being a Service Dog - like being trained at least three demonstrable tasks and having been certified for public access.

It also sounds like your niece would have to be part of a three-unit Service Dog team with an adult there to handle the dog, rather than being able to take the dog herself, since the dog's trained task is to "Go Find Jane" and then the dog goes over and licks her face. She would not be able to direct the dog to do that for her by herself.



> While I agree that every allowance should be made to allow her to have the dog with her, the attitude that the other kid can just transfer is ludicrous.


I do agree with this. 

Especially in the case of Andrew Stevens (whom this thread is about, after all), transferring to another school may not be at all possible considering the school in question is the school on Fort Belvoir (military base) where his family is stationed.


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## codmaster

Lauri & The Gang said:


> .......
> If a dog can help her try to life as much of a normal life as she possibly can - even at the cost of someone else not being able to go to THAT school (let them transfer) - I'm all for it.


And that is a *nice* attitude - "let THEM transfer". 

And then the next poor kid who needs something that would conflict with your relative might say - "Let HIM transfer".

From how you suggest that the other child should just transfer to make room for your relative, I guess that you would agree and just have your relative transfer, right?


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## Angelo John Stevens

No one should have to transfer schools over a service dog, class room changes sure, but not an entire school change that is just another example of an unfair accomidation to request of a school or another family for that matter.

While I believe and support your dog is doing great things, based on your information it does not constitute a service dog by school requirements yet.

Alaya, Andrews dog can 1 Activate a Device in a chest 2 make a Phone Call 3 Carry important medicine with her 4 Provides Mobility Support 5 Can Alert to a Seizure 6 can Stablize while in a Seizure (All Demonstrated incidently)

She only needs to provide 3 demostrable(sp) tasks but she can do 6, and we are of course training more and more as Anderw Progress's she will need to do more so we want to make sure we are prepared.

Abby is also right on 3 person team, someone will have to be the dogs handler, in Andrews case he has taken and passed the access test, I would begin working on that with yourself, child and dog, while it may not yet be a service dog, the dog can still be a service dog in training, and you might wanna start the access training now in addition to specific eating and bathroom times to instill into the training.

I wish you the best of luck and if you need any assistance, please contact me, this is very close to my heart for all people that require service dogs, thanks in advance.

A reminder for those that live in VA Candle Light Vigil Jan 6th, Falls Church VA contact me for details.


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## SchDDR

It's rather easy to accommodate the needs of any child who has an allergy. Place the children in different classrooms.

So, not only are allergies a non-issue in terms of addressing them, they are further, not the basis of the schools refusal to permit Andrew to access education.


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## kiwilrdg

I do hope the school board makes a favorable decision and that it paves the way for a more accessable appeals process for any future cases like this.

If the school board makes a decision against the child/dog I hope the legal appeal will correct any problems in the system.


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## codmaster

SchDDR said:


> It's rather easy to accommodate the needs of any child who has an allergy. Place the children in different classrooms.............


Allergies are NOT a non-issue to those who have them - they can actually be life threatening to some! And what if there is only one class for the particular grade - (I know - have the OTHER child switch schools OR how about home scholling?)

Whether the school board, who is charged with the safe education of all of the children attending school or who may attend in the future, not just with a few of them, uses this issue or not; it is, or could become, a very critical one. 

BTW, just out of curiosity, I wonder what what you would have the school board do with a child who has a phobia about dogs - simply go to another school? 

I just met a small child in our neighborhood who suffers this condition of being absolutely terrified of dogs due to an earlier attack by one.


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## SchDDR

If the child is in a different classroom, it's a non-issue.
The exposure at that point is no different than the child receives from encountering other children who have pets at home. Or do you also advocate all children who have pets being barred from school attendance?

If a child is that phobic of dogs, they needn't come into contact with the dog, anymore than an allergic child need do. The child with the service dog, and the child with allergies and/or a phobia, needn't share the same classroom, attend lunch at the same time, or share the same playground.

Why are you inferring that I would advocate any child being forced to attend an entirely different school? I'm stating the obvious- put the children in different classrooms, in the same school.

Aside from extremely rural areas, I find it difficult to believe there would only be one classroom for that particular grade. That certainly isn't the case in Andrew's school.

It if WERE the case, it is incumbent on the school to hire a second teacher and CREATE a second classroom, or provide transportation to another school, to accommodate one of the children.


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## codmaster

SchDDR said:


> If the child is in a different classroom, it's a non-issue.
> The exposure at that point is no different than the child receives from encountering other children who have pets at home. Or do you also advocate all children who have pets being barred from school attendance?
> 
> If a child is that phobic of dogs, they needn't come into contact with the dog, anymore than an allergic child need do. The child with the service dog, and the child with allergies and/or a phobia, needn't share the same classroom, attend lunch at the same time, or share the same playground.
> 
> *How the heck do you know (or even suggest) that they won't come into contact? Lunch, playground, entering or exiting the school, in the hallways, anywhere in and around the school - or maybe it isn't that important if it is not your child?*
> 
> *Why are you inferring that I would advocate any child being forced to attend an entirely different school?* I'm stating the obvious- put the children in different classrooms, in the same school.
> 
> *In other words, move the other child to accomodate yours - correct?*
> 
> Aside from extremely rural areas, I find it difficult to believe there would only be one classroom for that particular grade. That certainly isn't the case in Andrew's school.
> 
> It if WERE the case, it is incumbent on the school to hire a second teacher and CREATE a second classroom, or provide transportation to another school, to accommodate one of the children.


Wonder which child you would suggest should move to another school? 

BTW, isn't the child moving to another school exactly what you said above that you never suggested? *HMMM!*

*Why not just admit that one feels that the school should do anything one wants for their child? It's a normal parent reaction for sure.*


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## SchDDR

Okay, one- allergies aren't the reason Andrew is being denied his right to an education.

Two, I stated arrange transportation for a child to another school assuming there was no possible way to place the children in separate classes. I also stated the changes of it coming to that were absurdly low, as virtually no school in the COUNTRY has only one class for ANY grade. 

When I said that I hadn't suggested moving the child to another school, that was because prior to that, I had not. You begin insisting that I was somehow saying that, and I gave the worst case scenario in which that could possibly ever happen.

How do I know they won't come into contact?
Don't put them in the same class.  If a child is so allergic that walking down the same hallway past a dog that comes in no physical contact with them, is going to cause a severe, life-threatening reaction, then the child clearly should not be entering a school, period. Other students, who attend the school, own pets. They bring dander to school on their clothing. Are you now saying that those children should not be permitted to attend school, because they might pass a child in the hallway, who is allergic to the dander on their clothing? Perhaps owning a pet should prevent one from becoming a teacher, as well.

If a child has to be transported to another school so that all children can be accommodated equally, which child attends which school should be determined based upon which child would benefit the most from which school.

In a case where a child needs a service dog, and there is literally only ONE classroom for his or her grade in that school, I'd actually be more likely to advocate the child with the service dog being sent to a larger school. I can't imagine a school that has only one classroom has adequate supports in place to accommodate the educational needs of a disabled child.

However, I restate that the necessity for that doesn't exist in this case, nor would it, in most cases. No one is objecting to Andrew's dog on the grounds of allergies. There are more than one classrooms of Andrew's grade available in that school, if a child in Andrew's class DID have allergies.


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## codmaster

SchDDR said:


> Okay, one- allergies aren't the reason Andrew is being denied his right to an education.
> 
> Two, I stated arrange transportation for a child to another school assuming there was no possible way to place the children in separate classes. I also stated the changes of it coming to that were absurdly low, as virtually no school in the COUNTRY has only one class for ANY grade.
> 
> When I said that I hadn't suggested moving the child to another school, that was because prior to that, I had not. You begin insisting that I was somehow saying that, and I gave the worst case scenario in which that could possibly ever happen.
> 
> How do I know they won't come into contact?
> Don't put them in the same class. If a child is so allergic that walking down the same hallway past a dog that comes in no physical contact with them, is going to cause a severe, life-threatening reaction, then the child clearly should not be entering a school, period. Other students, who attend the school, own pets. They bring dander to school on their clothing. Are you now saying that those children should not be permitted to attend school, because they might pass a child in the hallway, who is allergic to the dander on their clothing? Perhaps owning a pet should prevent one from becoming a teacher, as well.
> 
> If a child has to be transported to another school so that all children can be accommodated equally, which child attends which school should be determined based upon which child would benefit the most from which school.
> 
> In a case where a child needs a service dog, and there is literally only ONE classroom for his or her grade in that school, I'd actually be more likely to advocate the child with the service dog being sent to a larger school. I can't imagine a school that has only one classroom has adequate supports in place to accommodate the educational needs of a disabled child.
> 
> However, I restate that the necessity for that doesn't exist in this case, nor would it, in most cases. No one is objecting to Andrew's dog on the grounds of allergies. There are more than one classrooms of Andrew's grade available in that school, if a child in Andrew's class DID have allergies.


Understood!


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## Angelo John Stevens

Wowzers, but yeah Allergies and Fears are not a reason at this point, its all about the Certifications we have versus the Agencys they want us to go through for the same Certifications we already own.

Update we have entered a mediation phase now, and outside mediator is entering to be a outside the picture person to render a thought other then our own into the picture in a chance to fix this before it goes to trial, to which we agreed, we are bringing the Epilepsy Foundation, serveral doctors, legal, and parents of Fort Belvoir to advocate on our behalf.

We are all for settleing this without a nasty court battle that is clearly evident we would win, but we would rather settle it outside that if we can, however our stance has not and will not change, Andrew and Alaya will attend school, period.


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## codmaster

Angelo John Stevens said:


> Wowzers, but yeah Allergies and Fears are not a reason at this point, its all about the Certifications we have versus the Agencys they want us to go through for the same Certifications we already own.
> 
> Update we have entered a mediation phase now, and outside mediator is entering to be a outside the picture person to render a thought other then our own into the picture in a chance to fix this before it goes to trial, to which we agreed, we are bringing the Epilepsy Foundation, serveral doctors, legal, and parents of Fort Belvoir to advocate on our behalf.
> 
> We are all for settleing this without a nasty court battle that is clearly evident we would win, but we would rather settle it outside that if we can, however our stance has not and will not change, Andrew and Alaya will attend school, period.


Yea, hopefully you and them can settle it without you and yours as well as all of the other children being negatively impacted.


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## selzer

I am a huge dog lover. I also have asthma. 

I know allergies are not the reason the dog is being denied. 

That surprises me, really. 

The kid that sticks out is the child with allergies so bad that their airway will become swelled and blocked, causing a life-threatening situation. Rare if even possible, but this is NOT what I was talking about. 

I am talking about the three or four kids in ANY classroom diagnosed with asthma and other kids who are not. Kids that are high-functioning so to speak. They hack a bit, caugh, get stuffed up, not life-threatening for sure. But can it, will it effect their potential to learn.

I say it certainly does. 

I do not think you can separate classrooms into allergy free kids and kids with allergies. As I said some of these kids are not diagnosed, as I was not. 

The question is, how do you EVER allow a service dog? 

Because WE are here. And we are paying for a safe learning environment as well. 

Can they ensure that the dog is in a room without carpeting, and special cleaning etc, is done to ensure that the problem is minimized.


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## SchDDR

It's unfortunate, but unless we intend to eliminate dog ownership entirely, it's a reality of life. Even if we elect to ban all service dogs from schools, you still have the issue of dander brought to school on the clothing of other children. Police dogs entering the school.


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## AbbyK9

Maybe we could start a different thread to discuss how schools could address the needs of children with allergies and phobias and still accommodate another child's Service Dog, since all it's doing in THIS discussion is adding unnecessary and irrelevant posts? Just a thought.

...

Also, in re: to one of John Stevens' posts above, "carrying medications in a backpack" is NOT considered to be a trained, demonstrable task for a Service Dog since it does not require any special training for the dog, nor can it be done on command.


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## Angelo John Stevens

Angelo =P But your right its not a task, however so I correct myself to 5, I agree also another thread needs to be discussed for schools and ideas for allergies, because its not an issue here and it needs to stop being discussed for this particular case.

For the record people allergic to dogs are allergic to hair/dander, even without a dog present, there is still far more dander going into every school then the amount that one live service dog would bring daily.


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## kiwilrdg

Mr Stevens, I am glad you have joined this group and started posting. The news stories, second-hand posts, and outright guesses on the situation made it look like you were just demanding everything without any regard for anyone else. From your posts it sounds like you are trying to use the tools that were built into the system to correct problems. I know you are all going down a rough path dealing with the school board which is nowhere near as rough as the path you have with the other parts of your lives. I hope you can have some comfort knowing you will make it easier for other people with similar problems in the future. 

It sounds to me like the school is not working with you to develop a plan that will ensure the safety of the child. If they don't have your input they are missing an important resource for planning the IEP. They might feel they have taken enough safeguards but they should show you how they did that. Special needs education should also involve keeping you in the loop on decisions on the actions that are needed and it looks like they did not do that sufficiently. 

Even if the outcome is not what you consider ideal, I hope they develop a plan that will work for your family.


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## ILGHAUS

Normally we try to pretty well let people wander off topic but this time *I'm going to ask if at possible please let us stay on the facts and discuss those.*

This case is getting national attention from many sources and could very well be a very important one that could have a contributing major impact on the future of SDs in schools. 

And we are very lucky to have one of the major players here with us giving us some important updates that we would otherwise not have. So it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree but please lets take advantage of our opportunity and discuss what is going on in the SD world based on the facts pertaining to this case.


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## Angelo John Stevens

Follow up story on the Washington Post with several updates please feel free to repost, 

Fairfax family fights for epileptic son to bring service dog to school


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## rjvamp

In Minnesota we don't have that problem. I know a girl that goes to school and has a service dog. 

There are many allergens in schools including dust, chalk, powder of different sorts, etc... and those aren't banned.

The ADA is very clear that you can't discriminate against the disabled and they need to make appropriate accommodation for this boy and his dog.


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## rjvamp

I've reposted on my facebook. I do hope that things get worked out quickly.

I have a dog that has seizures and it is very scary to see him go through it. I cannot imagine a child going through the same. And to have a dog that can sense the emergency earlier than a human is critical. It is not like humans are going to watch in every single second of the day.

All this has to do is with a certificate and that makes no sense - red tape! ARGHHH - gets my blood boiling. The boy and the dog is trained!


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## codmaster

Angelo John Stevens said:


> Follow up story on the Washington Post with several updates please feel free to repost,
> 
> Fairfax family fights for epileptic son to bring service dog to school


Thanks for the link. Very informative article - sure sounds like the paper is on your side from the tone of the article!


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## Hansel & Gretel

I thought the article in the Post was fantastic. This story is now being discussed around DC water coolers. 

Almost everyone I have talked to thinks Fairfax is in the wrong. Let's hope they change their mind.

John


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## codmaster

rjvamp said:


> I've reposted on my facebook. I do hope that things get worked out quickly.
> 
> I have a dog that has seizures and it is very scary to see him go through it. I cannot imagine a child going through the same. And to have a dog that can sense the emergency earlier than a human is critical. It is not like humans are going to watch in every single second of the day.
> 
> All this has to do is with a certificate and that makes no sense - red tape! ARGHHH - gets my blood boiling. The boy and the dog is trained!


And that means that the boy can certainly take care of the dog, and at the same time make sure that the dog doesn't bother any one else at the school, either students or teachers!


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## Angelo John Stevens

I have a small update, well large but heh, enjoy.

Monday (Tomorrow) The Today Show is doing a large peice on us, and more and this time FCPS has finally decided to speak (Prolly cause its a large news cast) I would watch, you will get both sides, clearly I am curious how they will explain how VDOE trumps ADA, should prove interesting Airs on Tuesday.

Also I thought about my last post, please see it below.

We started our epilepsy journey 4 years ago. At that time we were not aware Andrew was having seizures. The doctor ran extensive tests in 2006 and discovered Andrew was having seizures. Prior to that we, his doctor, and teachers believed he had ADHD, along with some minor learning disabilities. 

I joined the Army in 2006 to find some direction and purpose in my life. While in basic, Andrew was diagnosed with LGS (Lennox Gastaut Syndrome). We were not ready or prepared for this diagnosis. My wife, Nancy, handled things for several months while Andrew slipped further and further away from us.

In 2007 we moved twice and once again in 2009 before my current assignment at Fort Belvoir. These seizures, Special Education, and a lack of understanding these seizures both in school and at home, caused Andrews’s education to fall further and further behind.

Because of the intense and frequent seizures Andrew was unable to learn in a school environment. In late 2009 his doctor prescribed he be removed from school and be Homebound instructed. The doctor also prescribed a Seizure Response dog, and the surgical implant of a VNS (Vagal Nerve Stimulator) due to Andrew’s lack of response to the several potent adult medications. The medications failed reduced or prevent these debilitating seizures.

VNS is not some quick fix decision by his doctor. VNS is a very serious surgical procedure that minimizes seizures. It is a last resort and is used in kids who have had no relief from medication. 

When we tried to find an agency that trained Seizure Response dogs, and that would speak with us. Most had 2-6 year waiting lists. We were also told most people with LGS did not make it through their teen years, we were scared, scared parents at a loss of what to do and how to protect our son.

We discovered an agency that trained dogs for seizures in NY, however it was expensive, and we started a charity called The Andrew Gordon Stevens Foundation. The original goal was to get Andrew his dog and be done with it. However, more and more soldiers and families in need started contacting us so we expanded it after raising enough for Andrews dog. The foundation is now raising funds for other service members that need Seizure Alert Dogs.

Epilepsy is a very frightening and misunderstood disease with no real cure. Living with it and watching your child suffer from it is a horrible experience I would wish on no one, not even my enemy.

As a soldier and a father the hardest thing is feeling powerless to help the ones you love. When Andrew’s service dog came into his life, it was the first time we saw a reduction in his seizures, and the first time something other than a machine could detect his seizures before he had them. That gave us an extra and effective weapon against epilepsy and Andrew’s seizures.

We finally had a way out of the darkness. A chance to help Andrew. We want everything Andrew is entitled to so he may have as normal a life for as long as he can. This is what any loving parent wants.

Andrew’s service dog was denied entry into his school in Fairfax county public schools (FCPS). Denial began slowly first as small requests that the school turned into demands, and grew into ridiculous requests. Now we are in a bitter battle between parents (us) that want to protect their child and a school that resistant and demanding items that are against Federal law.

Andrew and his dog are certified as a team. The school requires a handler or teachers’ aide from the school’s organization of choice. Our problem is whatever organization the school uses neither trained Alaya, Andrew, nor us on this dog. The trainers that trained us, Andrew, and Alaya are the certified officials and are the ones that provided the certificates. 

Andrew’s doctor prescribed a seizure alert dog, and also directed the seizure alert dog, Alaya, must attend school with Andrew. Alaya has been successful in detecting Andrews seizures, even the subtle ones that are unseen and undetected. The school claims a nurse can provide the same care Alaya offers to Andrew. I know of no nurse with a nose so fine as to detect the subtle chemical changes that precede or accompany a seizure. 

We asked the school to provide proof that a human that can sense and detect a seizure before it happens, and of course, they have yet to provide that. We, the parents, provided all we were asked for even though the Federal law states we do not have to, and yet the school will not provide clarification or direction.

We asked FCPS to provide us information on a school that had a service dog in it and they have yet to provide that. We asked the school to coordinate a meeting with those that were against allowing the dog and they have failed to provide that. FCPS are paid for by tax payer dollars. They are public servants hired to provide service to us, the tax payers.

FCPS finally offered a mediation meeting after having offered a full time nurse. A nurse cannot detect the chemical change in Andrew before a seizure, only a trained seizure alert dog can. The nurse can only respond to Andrew’s seizure if detected. Seizure alert dogs are not pets but medical equipment.

We asked for increased homebound hours until an agreement can be made with the service animal. No notification has arrived since the denial letter drafted by someone who refused to show up for any meeting with us.

Going to the media is not an easy choice. We are left with few weapons to fight a battle we know we already won. FCPS seems reluctant to admit and we refuse to remain quiet, or sidelined.

Our goals and demands are simply to allow the service animal to attend school with Andrew, to understand that we, the parents, will be there for the first several weeks to integrate the dog into the school, class, and with the other students, and to know that we intend to work every step of the way to educate, teach, and share the experience with the school.

We are not unreasonable parents. There are no legal reasons to deny a service dog. Service dogs are protected by Federal Law as are their charges. Andrew and Alaya have a legal right to attend school together, and I will not allow that right to be taken from him.

I love my son, he will be given the chance to have everything he needs and is entitled to. It wounds my heart to see him sad, upset and wanting to move to a school that will accept him and his dog. It takes everything I can do to maintain control, and discipline. I do so because I want my son to see that law is on his side and that when you fight the good fight, you are fighting the battle for everyone like you. For those who come after you. We must set the right example and be the voice for all those after us.

In our last meeting Mrs. Streeter said and I quote, 
Angelo, “So if my son was blind, will he be allowed a Seeing Eye dog?”
Streeter, “No, we have teachers that can see!”
So before you assume I'm stubborn and unreasonable, remember I fight because people in FCPS have no real appreciation for the Federal law the are unjustly challenging. 
We are not unreasonable. When presented with something reasonable, we are more than willing to work with them. If the FCPS would fund a handler and we reach an understanding of a handler’s duties, we would be willing to accept that. It is my understanding a full time handler would cost far less than a full time nurse.

Such an offer has not been made by FCPS, however, for a family in Woodbridge attending Woodbridge Middle School it seems to work fine. Parents, handler, principle, teachers, and students are all open and working as a team. It’s a learning experience and one Woodbridge Middle school has eagerly embraced. Perhaps FCPS can learn something from this school.

This is a battle for my son and his school, and the rights of persons with disabilities. Federal law is behind us. I will use every tool I have to make FCPS provide a safe educational environment for my son. I will not be bullied, I will not be quiet, and I will not accept no as an answer.

FCPS has had every chance to address this issue. All they have provided are a few statements here and there, which do not address the issue at hand. I even signed a release giving them full permission to speak, and instead a small statement was issued by the county’s chancellor which, again, never addressed the issue, or the lack of following the Federal law as it is clearly written. For the record, no one has ever won a case when denying a service dog that meets the ADA guidelines. For the record, no one from FCPS has been able to show us a school in FCPS that is allowing a service dog. FCPS has not offered us any concrete reason for denying Andrew’s service dog that we have not already countered.

Angelo John Stevens
Father, Husband, American.


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## codmaster

Don't blame you one bit for fighting for your son, Angelo! 

Purely out of curiosity, could you tell us what agency certified the dog as such a detection dog? I think it would be fascinating to check with them and see how such a capability is trained into a dog.

When you mention the "handler" above, can we assume that is a person who would handle the dog? Would this person need to be trained and certified by the same organization that trained the dog?

And finally, I am curious (and apologize if this was already stated and I missed it) as to what grade your son is in in Fairfax schools. It is intersting esp. to me as I used to live in Faifax, Va.


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## adamdude04

Hansel & Gretel said:


> The ADA law states (in so many words) that a service dog trumps someones allergies.


Right. Wreck other kids lives because they can't focus, sneeze, tear up, cough, ect because someone needs a dog for specific reasons..

Sorry, but uhh if a child needs a service dog, then that child shouldn't be in a regular classroom setting. Shame on the parents to allow their child in a setting to slow down others and further more possibly make school a horrible place to be daily. I wouldn't want to go to work every day coughing and itching my eyes. Would you?

I'm all for service dogs. However this child is in need of education at his level and speed. Now I think the proper way to handle this would be for the school to place the child in the proper class to fit his needs. Then because a service dog is needed, asses the effects for each child in that classroom of which the service dog will be attending. If no issues to be found, great. If a child or two have an issue, then create a solution so that every child gets what they deserve: proper education at a personal level. Not a forced level. 

It's stories like these that really make me wonder what the heck some parents are thinking.


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## codmaster

adamdude04 said:


> Right. Wreck other kids lives because they can't focus, sneeze, tear up, cough, ect because someone needs a dog for specific reasons..
> 
> Sorry, but uhh if a child needs a service dog, then that child shouldn't be in a regular classroom setting. Shame on the parents to allow their child in a setting to slow down others and further more possibly make school a horrible place to be daily. I wouldn't want to go to work every day coughing and itching my eyes. Would you?
> I'm all for service dogs. However this child is in need of education at his level and speed.
> It's stories like these that really make me wonder what the heck some parents are thinking.


They are thinking only about their child and usually not anybody elses' children. 

I guess that is to be generally expected as I think most all parents would feel the same about their child!


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## adamdude04

codmaster said:


> They are thinking only about their child and usually not anybody elses' children.
> 
> I guess that is to be generally expected as I think most all parents would feel the same about their child!


Exactly. How they feel about their child. Not how the child feels.


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## codmaster

adamdude04 said:


> Exactly. How they feel about their child. Not how the child feels.


Or, I suspect, how other affected children might feel or might be impacted. Unfortunate, but very understandable.


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## ILGHAUS

OK one more time. The ADA does not trump another child's allergy. This is why parents meet with special groups and set up plans for a child's education. Allergies in some cases are covered under the ADA if they are severe enough to classify the individual as disabled under the ADA legal standards.

Next, Mr. Stevens has already said there are no children in his son's class that are allergic nor have any parents in the school made a complaint about his son taking his dog to school.

And finally, allergies have nothing to do with this particular thread. *A seperate thread was started to discuss allergies in the cases where they do pertain. *


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## AbbyK9

> When you mention the "handler" above, can we assume that is a person who would handle the dog? Would this person need to be trained and certified by the same organization that trained the dog?


I am curious about the handler requirement. It appears to me that the school is saying Alaya can come to school with Andrew IF there is a qualified, adult handler who can handle the dog while Andrew has seizures, since he would not be able to handle the dog himself. Is this correct?

If so, why is it the school's responsibility to provide and fund a handler for a three-unit Service Dog team? It seems to me like in the majority of cases where a three-unit Service dog team is attending school or working together, it's usually made up of a disabled child, the child's service dog, and one of the child's parents who handles the dog. As Andrew's parents are both certified to handle Alaya, could his mother be the handler? 

I don't know if the mother works since it has not been mentioned, but as she is currently homeschooling, I am assuming that she does not work or at least does not work full-time. If that's the case, why can't his mother be the handler for the dog so Andrew can attend school? This would not require the school to pay for a handler nor would anyone need to worry about whom this handler is certified with or how, as Andrew's mother is already certified.



> And finally, I am curious (and apologize if this was already stated and I missed it) as to what grade your son is in in Fairfax schools. It is intersting esp. to me as I used to live in Faifax, Va.


The family lives on Fort Belvoir (military installation). The only school physically on Fort Belvoir is Fort Belvoir Elementary School, and older children bus to Walt Whitman Middle School and Mount Vernon High School, both of which are in Alexandria, VA. Fort Belvoir Elementary school is Grade K through 6. I would assume Andrew is in 6th grade if he is 12 and goes to Fort Belvoir Elementary.


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## SARAHSMITH

In many situations school is paying for 1 on 1 assistants for students. These students often receive other services, such as speech, OT, special education teachers that give extra support to that child while they still attend regular classes. This has become VERY costly for schools. I'm sure with the economy the way it is, schools struggle to meet the needs of the masses as well as individuals while trying to keep cost down. I do not envy those who must make these touch decisions.


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## kiwilrdg

> older children bus to Walt Whitman Middle School and Mount Vernon High School, both of which are in Alexandria, VA.


I might clear up some confusion or I might add confusion with this but for folks that are not familiar with Virginia. Walt Whitman Middle School and Mount Vernon High School are in a portion of Alexandria that is in Fairfax County. Part of Alexandria is designated the City of Alexandria and has its own school system. The Alexandria school system is not involved in this issue. Just in case anyone is looking for school board web sites.


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## Hansel & Gretel

ILGHAUS said:


> OK one more time. The ADA does not trump another child's allergy. This is why parents meet with special groups and set up plans for a child's education. Allergies in some cases are covered under the ADA if they are severe enough to classify the individual as disabled under the ADA legal standards.
> 
> Next, Mr. Stevens has already said there are no children in his son's class that are allergic nor have any parents in the school made a complaint about his son taking his dog to school.
> 
> And finally, allergies have nothing to do with this particular thread. *A seperate thread was started to discuss allergies in the cases where they do pertain. *


I don't want to bog down this thread with irrelevant allergy talk but in general, if someone has a service dog (as in a movie theater) and another patron complains that they have an allergy, they cannot ask the service dog and handler to leave. That being my definition of trump. We can take this up in the other thread.


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## Liesje

Angelo John Stevens said:


> I have a small update, well large but heh, enjoy.
> 
> Monday (Tomorrow) The Today Show is doing a large peice on us, and more and this time FCPS has finally decided to speak (Prolly cause its a large news cast) I would watch, you will get both sides, clearly I am curious how they will explain how VDOE trumps ADA, should prove interesting Airs on Tuesday.
> 
> Also I thought about my last post, please see it below.
> 
> We started our epilepsy journey 4 years ago. At that time we were not aware Andrew was having seizures. The doctor ran extensive tests in 2006 and discovered Andrew was having seizures. Prior to that we, his doctor, and teachers believed he had ADHD, along with some minor learning disabilities.
> 
> I joined the Army in 2006 to find some direction and purpose in my life. While in basic, Andrew was diagnosed with LGS (Lennox Gastaut Syndrome). We were not ready or prepared for this diagnosis. My wife, Nancy, handled things for several months while Andrew slipped further and further away from us.
> 
> In 2007 we moved twice and once again in 2009 before my current assignment at Fort Belvoir. These seizures, Special Education, and a lack of understanding these seizures both in school and at home, caused Andrews’s education to fall further and further behind.
> 
> Because of the intense and frequent seizures Andrew was unable to learn in a school environment. In late 2009 his doctor prescribed he be removed from school and be Homebound instructed. The doctor also prescribed a Seizure Response dog, and the surgical implant of a VNS (Vagal Nerve Stimulator) due to Andrew’s lack of response to the several potent adult medications. The medications failed reduced or prevent these debilitating seizures.
> 
> VNS is not some quick fix decision by his doctor. VNS is a very serious surgical procedure that minimizes seizures. It is a last resort and is used in kids who have had no relief from medication.
> 
> When we tried to find an agency that trained Seizure Response dogs, and that would speak with us. Most had 2-6 year waiting lists. We were also told most people with LGS did not make it through their teen years, we were scared, scared parents at a loss of what to do and how to protect our son.
> 
> We discovered an agency that trained dogs for seizures in NY, however it was expensive, and we started a charity called The Andrew Gordon Stevens Foundation. The original goal was to get Andrew his dog and be done with it. However, more and more soldiers and families in need started contacting us so we expanded it after raising enough for Andrews dog. The foundation is now raising funds for other service members that need Seizure Alert Dogs.
> 
> Epilepsy is a very frightening and misunderstood disease with no real cure. Living with it and watching your child suffer from it is a horrible experience I would wish on no one, not even my enemy.
> 
> As a soldier and a father the hardest thing is feeling powerless to help the ones you love. When Andrew’s service dog came into his life, it was the first time we saw a reduction in his seizures, and the first time something other than a machine could detect his seizures before he had them. That gave us an extra and effective weapon against epilepsy and Andrew’s seizures.
> 
> We finally had a way out of the darkness. A chance to help Andrew. We want everything Andrew is entitled to so he may have as normal a life for as long as he can. This is what any loving parent wants.
> 
> Andrew’s service dog was denied entry into his school in Fairfax county public schools (FCPS). Denial began slowly first as small requests that the school turned into demands, and grew into ridiculous requests. Now we are in a bitter battle between parents (us) that want to protect their child and a school that resistant and demanding items that are against Federal law.
> 
> Andrew and his dog are certified as a team. The school requires a handler or teachers’ aide from the school’s organization of choice. Our problem is whatever organization the school uses neither trained Alaya, Andrew, nor us on this dog. The trainers that trained us, Andrew, and Alaya are the certified officials and are the ones that provided the certificates.
> 
> Andrew’s doctor prescribed a seizure alert dog, and also directed the seizure alert dog, Alaya, must attend school with Andrew. Alaya has been successful in detecting Andrews seizures, even the subtle ones that are unseen and undetected. The school claims a nurse can provide the same care Alaya offers to Andrew. I know of no nurse with a nose so fine as to detect the subtle chemical changes that precede or accompany a seizure.
> 
> We asked the school to provide proof that a human that can sense and detect a seizure before it happens, and of course, they have yet to provide that. We, the parents, provided all we were asked for even though the Federal law states we do not have to, and yet the school will not provide clarification or direction.
> 
> We asked FCPS to provide us information on a school that had a service dog in it and they have yet to provide that. We asked the school to coordinate a meeting with those that were against allowing the dog and they have failed to provide that. FCPS are paid for by tax payer dollars. They are public servants hired to provide service to us, the tax payers.
> 
> FCPS finally offered a mediation meeting after having offered a full time nurse. A nurse cannot detect the chemical change in Andrew before a seizure, only a trained seizure alert dog can. The nurse can only respond to Andrew’s seizure if detected. Seizure alert dogs are not pets but medical equipment.
> 
> We asked for increased homebound hours until an agreement can be made with the service animal. No notification has arrived since the denial letter drafted by someone who refused to show up for any meeting with us.
> 
> Going to the media is not an easy choice. We are left with few weapons to fight a battle we know we already won. FCPS seems reluctant to admit and we refuse to remain quiet, or sidelined.
> 
> Our goals and demands are simply to allow the service animal to attend school with Andrew, to understand that we, the parents, will be there for the first several weeks to integrate the dog into the school, class, and with the other students, and to know that we intend to work every step of the way to educate, teach, and share the experience with the school.
> 
> We are not unreasonable parents. There are no legal reasons to deny a service dog. Service dogs are protected by Federal Law as are their charges. Andrew and Alaya have a legal right to attend school together, and I will not allow that right to be taken from him.
> 
> I love my son, he will be given the chance to have everything he needs and is entitled to. It wounds my heart to see him sad, upset and wanting to move to a school that will accept him and his dog. It takes everything I can do to maintain control, and discipline. I do so because I want my son to see that law is on his side and that when you fight the good fight, you are fighting the battle for everyone like you. For those who come after you. We must set the right example and be the voice for all those after us.
> 
> In our last meeting Mrs. Streeter said and I quote,
> Angelo, “So if my son was blind, will he be allowed a Seeing Eye dog?”
> Streeter, “No, we have teachers that can see!”
> So before you assume I'm stubborn and unreasonable, remember I fight because people in FCPS have no real appreciation for the Federal law the are unjustly challenging.
> We are not unreasonable. When presented with something reasonable, we are more than willing to work with them. If the FCPS would fund a handler and we reach an understanding of a handler’s duties, we would be willing to accept that. It is my understanding a full time handler would cost far less than a full time nurse.
> 
> Such an offer has not been made by FCPS, however, for a family in Woodbridge attending Woodbridge Middle School it seems to work fine. Parents, handler, principle, teachers, and students are all open and working as a team. It’s a learning experience and one Woodbridge Middle school has eagerly embraced. Perhaps FCPS can learn something from this school.
> 
> This is a battle for my son and his school, and the rights of persons with disabilities. Federal law is behind us. I will use every tool I have to make FCPS provide a safe educational environment for my son. I will not be bullied, I will not be quiet, and I will not accept no as an answer.
> 
> FCPS has had every chance to address this issue. All they have provided are a few statements here and there, which do not address the issue at hand. I even signed a release giving them full permission to speak, and instead a small statement was issued by the county’s chancellor which, again, never addressed the issue, or the lack of following the Federal law as it is clearly written. For the record, no one has ever won a case when denying a service dog that meets the ADA guidelines. For the record, no one from FCPS has been able to show us a school in FCPS that is allowing a service dog. FCPS has not offered us any concrete reason for denying Andrew’s service dog that we have not already countered.
> 
> Angelo John Stevens
> Father, Husband, American.


Mr. Stevens, thank you for coming here and participating in this discussion. This post was very informative but in no way do you owe anyone such details about your son's condition and your family's journey. Thank you for being willing to share in such detail. 

My husband has idiopathic epilepsy, he started having grand mal seizures when we were in college. Nothing on CT scans, EEG, or MRI. Luckily, his condition has been 100% controlled by medications (he was on carbatrol and now lamotrigine I believe). He has not had a seizure in years and I think this summer we will try weaning off the meds so he is very lucky indeed.

Thank you for your service to this country.


----------



## Remo

Interestingly enough, Fairfax County used to have a TEACHER that had a service dog. Her first name was Wendy and she had a big black GSD who was her service dog. I used to see them together all over the place. She has mobility problems and her dog helped pull her wheelchair and picked things up for her. Wendy approached VGSR about helping her find a new service dog when her big guy had to retire.


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## Jax08

CNN Video...

CNN.com - Breaking News, U.S., World, Weather, Entertainment & Video News


----------



## wildo

Jax08 said:


> CNN Video...
> 
> CNN.com - Breaking News, U.S., World, Weather, Entertainment & Video News


I love the anchor's comment: "Ummm... I think sensing a seizure is one of them. [something the dog can do that the human can't]" Ha! That's funny...


----------



## Jax08

I know! I caught that too. What a great way to end that clip! I'm thrilled to see it on CNN. Once the major news catches a story things seem to get resolution.


----------



## Hansel & Gretel

Congratulations to the Stevens family for a well orchestrated marketing campaign. Seems like Fairfax will be feeling a little pressure to do the right thing now. 

Lets just cross our fingers (and paws) that they make the right decision.

John


----------



## Shultz

Hansel & Gretel said:


> Congratulations to the Stevens family for a well orchestrated marketing campaign. Seems like Fairfax will be feeling a little pressure to do the right thing now.
> 
> Lets just cross our fingers (and paws) that they make the right decision.
> 
> John


Hmmm..."well orchestrated marketing campaign" sounds like you are selling something.

I hope they let the dog in.


----------



## codmaster

Siounds good for the parents, for sure.

One thing that I haven't seen here (and maybe I just missed it) is how much learning is the child capable of in school? I thought I saw somewhere in this thread that he was quite a bit older than his grade level due to his handicap. Was that correct?


----------



## Hansel & Gretel

Shultz said:


> Hmmm..."well orchestrated marketing campaign" sounds like you are selling something.
> 
> I hope they let the dog in.


The only dog I have in this fight is what I have read on the internet and the fact that this is in my home county.

I think the county is wrong and I have been routing for the Stevens family all along. Nothing more.


----------



## Hansel & Gretel

codmaster said:


> Siounds good for the parents, for sure.
> 
> One thing that I haven't seen here (and maybe I just missed it) is how much learning is the child capable of in school? I thought I saw somewhere in this thread that he was quite a bit older than his grade level due to his handicap. Was that correct?


I think this is one of the reasons his dad is so passionate about this. His son has missed a lot of school due to his illness and they want him in school. Without the dog with him, they are afraid an unexpected seizure could kill him.


----------



## Hansel & Gretel

You got me thinking. How much learning was Helen Keller "capable of in school?"


----------



## codmaster

Hansel & Gretel said:


> I think this is one of the reasons his dad is so passionate about this. His son has missed a lot of school due to his illness and they want him in school. Without the dog with him, they are afraid an unexpected seizure could kill him.


Is his missing school due to illness the reason thet he is so far behind, (I am assuming here that he is behind of course) or is the poor child developmentally handicaped as well? I was wondering what grade is he in in school.

Is the dog with him every minute of every day?

It sounds like he would have to be since I understand that no human including his parents can do what the dog does for the child - is that correct? 

How does the dog do his business during the day - does the boy have to go with him outside also? 

Sounds again like he would have to and also when the dog eats as well. That has got to be tough on everybody involved.


----------



## Hansel & Gretel

I can't answer your questions but I bet compared to having epileptic seizures so bad he has to wear a helmet, I wouldn't think it wouldn't be that tough. I bet taking care of his dog is the highlight of his day.


----------



## codmaster

Hansel & Gretel said:


> You got me thinking. How much learning was Helen Keller "capable of in school?"


I have no idea - can you enlighten us about how much she was capable of learning? I never heard anything about this aspect of Helen Keller. Are you suggesting that this child is like Helen Keller?

I have to admit that I wasn't even aware that she went to a regular school - would you happen to know where and what regular public school that she actually did attend?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

codmaster said:


> Siounds good for the parents, for sure.
> 
> One thing that I haven't seen here (and maybe I just missed it) is how much learning is the child capable of in school? I thought I saw somewhere in this thread that he was quite a bit older than his grade level due to his handicap. Was that correct?


I am guessing that his classroom placement was addressed in his Individual Education Plan. 
Archived: Guide to the Individualized Education Program
Eta or his 504 plan

It is always amazing to me to watch children who have special academic needs put their heads down and bull through obstacles and road blocks that we could not imagine, and still persevere and succeed. 

I love this - this kid was amazing - and helped me to learn even more just let it go and see what can happen. 

I had a student who was autistic. Before I got to the school, there was a lot of "drama" about the kid. School said he just doesn't have it - we want to special place him (outside the school). Parents said not on your life - least restrictive. School said he'll never graduate, and if he does it will be an IEP diploma. Parents and student said you watch. 

By junior and senior year I was working with him on his college choices. People asked me why. I said because he wants to go - not Harvard, the community college - maybe he can do it. This kid graduated with a regular diploma, went on to get an AS from a community college and has a job with benefits, retirement. 

Many people questioned just how much this kid was capable of learning from us. 

Instead we should have questioned how much this kid was capable of teaching us.


----------



## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> I have no idea - can you enlighten us about how much she was capable of learning? I never heard anything about this aspect of Helen Keller. Are you suggesting that this child is like Helen Keller?
> 
> I have to admit that I wasn't even aware that she went to a regular school - would you happen to know where and what regular public school that she actually did attend?


That's a somewhat unfair question.
Helen Keller grew up in an era where school attendance wasn't compulsory, and public schools were not commonplace.

Helen Keller obtained a BA from what would today be considered Harvard University [at the time, there was a seperate women's campus, Radcliffe, from which she graduated], at the age of 24.


----------



## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> Is his missing school due to illness the reason thet he is so far behind, (I am assuming here that he is behind of course) or is the poor child developmentally handicaped as well? I was wondering what grade is he in in school.
> 
> Is the dog with him every minute of every day?
> 
> It sounds like he would have to be since I understand that no human including his parents can do what the dog does for the child - is that correct?
> 
> How does the dog do his business during the day - does the boy have to go with him outside also?
> 
> Sounds again like he would have to and also when the dog eats as well. That has got to be tough on everybody involved.


Service dogs are trained to relieve themselves on command.
A service dog can quite comfortably relieve itself before school, eat lunch with the boy in a separate room during lunchtime, relieve itself during recess, and again at the end of the school day. The boy doesn't have to miss any class to attend to the dog's needs.


----------



## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> Siounds good for the parents, for sure.
> 
> One thing that I haven't seen here (and maybe I just missed it) is how much learning is the child capable of in school? I thought I saw somewhere in this thread that he was quite a bit older than his grade level due to his handicap. Was that correct?


How is this relevant? Education is a right, not a privilege.
It's not reserved only for those without learning disabilities [not implying the child in question here *has* a learning disability.]


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## Hansel & Gretel

This seems to be a pretty cynical board. I hope they win.


----------



## ILGHAUS

Andrew and his dog begin going to school together next week.

To read some about the decision made today ....

http://education.change.org/blog/view/victory_12-year-old_with_epilepsy_can_bring_service_dog_to_school#share_source=blog-bottom_fb


----------



## ILGHAUS

Hansel & Gretel said:


> This seems to be a pretty cynical board. I hope they win.


No just some members.


----------



## Hansel & Gretel

That is fantastic! I wish Andrew and his family the best!


----------



## codmaster

SchDDR said:


> How is this relevant? Education is a right, not a privilege.
> It's not reserved only for those without learning disabilities [not implying the child in question here *has* a learning disability.]
> 
> *Again, why so defensive? If the child has a disability, then he has. Nothing wrong with that, is there? *
> 
> *In fact aren't his parents claiming the treatment that they are claiming from the public school district based on the ADA? Isn't that about individuals with disabilities? HMMMM?*


"Relevant" to what? And why do you ask if it is "relevant". I never said anything about a "right" did I? You shouldn't get so defensive about something that isn't there.

Education is a right - of course. For every child, not just a few. 

We have a child who was classified as gifted, whatever that means. He surely didn't get an individual education plan put together for him or any of the other gifted kids - in fact the school didn't even offer any special gifted classes.


----------



## wildo

ILGHAUS said:


> Andrew and his dog begin going to school together next week.


Incredible! You are to be commended for standing up for what is right, Mr. Stevens! I'm impressed by not only your drive and persistence, but also your sense of detail and awareness. It was clear since you joined this group and commented that you knew your stuff and have done your homework. I'm very happy for you and your family. I am sure it is a big relief for you!


----------



## adamdude04

This thread is very interesting..


----------



## codmaster

SchDDR said:


> Service dogs are trained to relieve themselves on command.
> A service dog can quite comfortably relieve itself before school, eat lunch with the boy in a separate room during lunchtime, relieve itself during recess, and again at the end of the school day. The boy doesn't have to miss any class to attend to the dog's needs.


 
I am confused a little by your answer.
Are you saying that the dog *is* with the boy 24/7 all the time? 

That was actually the question I was curious about since I think a claim of the parents was that no human could do the same thing for the boy as the dog could. Which is truly remarkable that the dog could save the boys life like that with his many attacks.

And are you saying that they have to eat lunch by themselves in a seperate room? Why can't they also eat together in the regular cafeteria?


----------



## codmaster

adamdude04 said:


> This thread is very interesting..


 
Very true!


----------



## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> "Relevant" to what? And why do you ask if it is "relevant". I never said anything about a "right" did I? You shouldn't get so defensive about something that isn't there.
> 
> Education is a right - of course. For every child, not just a few.
> 
> We have a child who was classified as gifted, whatever that means. He surely didn't get an individual education plan put together for him or any of the other gifted kids - in fact the school didn't even offer any special gifted classes.


If that bothers you, then advocate for Federal law mandating gifted programs.


----------



## codmaster

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I am guessing that his classroom placement was addressed in his Individual Education Plan.
> Archived: Guide to the Individualized Education Program
> Eta or his 504 plan
> 
> ...................


That is right - I forgot that some kids in school get the school to create a special individualized education plan. 

That has to be a great thing for all of those kids for sure.


----------



## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> I am confused a little by your answer.
> Are you saying that the dog *is* with the boy 24/7 all the time?
> 
> That was actually the question I was curious about since I think a claim of the parents was that no human could do the same thing for the boy as the dog could. Which is truly remarkable that the dog could save the boys life like that with his many attacks.
> 
> And are you saying that they have to eat lunch by themselves in a seperate room? Why can't they also eat together in the regular cafeteria?


I don't know what the specific circumstances are here. I'm simply stating what a service dog is capable of, and that it would be possible for the boy and dog to remain together 24/7, without it disrupting the boy's education, or the lesson plan with comings and goings.

If I'm not mistaken [that's an IF, by the way], service dogs are not supposed to be fed/watered in restaurants or other places where food is prepared or served. I'm not saying that the child couldn't eat in the cafeteria, just that the dog likely cannot, and would have to receive any needed water or food elsewhere.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Forgot to add the quotey thing. Unfortunately there is no 504 plan for Other Health Impaired - empathy deficiency - seriously, you think it's great, if only there was a way for you to walk a mile in the shoes of those kids, or their parents. 

I am not responding in this thread again. 

Glad for civil rights, glad for this family, the kid, the dog, and the school.


----------



## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> "Relevant" to what? And why do you ask if it is "relevant".


Because you keep inquiring as to whether or not the boy has a developmental disability. Whether or not he does or does not, is irrelevant to this entire thread. The basis of his need for the service dog is epilepsy, not a learning or developmental disorder.

This thread is about his service dog.


----------



## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> *Again, why so defensive? If the child has a disability, then he has. Nothing wrong with that, is there? *
> 
> *In fact aren't his parents claiming the treatment that they are claiming from the public school district based on the ADA? Isn't that about individuals with disabilities? HMMMM?*.


The Americans with Disabilities Act is not limited to developmental or learning disabilities. The disability for which the service dog is used is epilepsy. Why do you keep inquiring about any other, entirely unrelated disabilities this child might have?


----------



## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> That is right - I forgot that some kids in school get the school to create a special individualized education plan.
> 
> That has to be a great thing for all of those kids for sure.


Yes, it's a rather novel concept called enabling disabled children to have access to education. Something about equality...


----------



## codmaster

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Forgot to add the quotey thing. Unfortunately there is no 504 plan for Other Health Impaired - empathy deficiency - seriously, you think it's great, if only there was a way for you to walk a mile in the shoes of those kids, or their parents.
> 
> I am not responding in this thread again.
> 
> Glad for civil rights, glad for this family, the kid, the dog, and the school.


What are you so upset about? I was seriously glad for the parents - is that what you are getting all upset about? 

"civil rights" - ????????????


----------



## codmaster

SchDDR said:


> Yes, it's a rather novel concept called enabling disabled children to have access to education. Something about equality...


 
Equality or special treatment? 

Interesting distinction, isn't it?

Not saying it is not warrented in some cases, but let's not call it equal when one group gets something and the rest of the children do not.

That is not equal.


----------



## codmaster

SchDDR said:


> If that bothers you, then advocate for Federal law mandating gifted programs.


 
Yea right, that would work! There were supposed to be such programs in the district but budget problems doomed their implementation and the parents were told "those kids don't need any special treatment".


----------



## Jax08

Congratulations Stevens Family! And especially to you Andrew! Enjoy school and make lots of friends!


----------



## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> Equality or special treatment?
> 
> Interesting distinction, isn't it?
> 
> Not saying it is not warrented in some cases, but let's not call it equal when one group gets something and the rest of the children do not.
> 
> That is not equal.


They're both getting the same exact thing- a basic education.
I suppose putting wheelchair ramps on a building is "special treatment" to you too?

Please, tell me what "special treatment" disabled children are getting in school. I'd love to hear.


----------



## wildo

codmaster said:


> Yea right, that would work! There were supposed to be such programs in the district but budget problems doomed their implementation and the parents were told "those kids don't need any special treatment".


Kind of like a very big school corporation telling a family they can't have their SD in school with them...? Reread this thread. Get inspired. Make a change.


----------



## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> Yea right, that would work! There were supposed to be such programs in the district but budget problems doomed their implementation and the parents were told "those kids don't need any special treatment".


Well now, we don't want kids getting any sort of "special treatment" now do we?

There's no Federal Law mandating gifted programs, which is why the funding isn't there. It's up to the state and the district to decide if they want to have the programs, and how to fund them. If there was a federal mandate, they'd either have to fund them, or pay for your child to attend a private school that did have the programs.

Someone has to fight to get the Federal Laws established. You think IDEA passed itself? It took parents fighting for it, because they gave a **** about their kids.

But of course, you'd rather complain, and take rights away from other kids, than fight for your own, now wouldn't you.


----------



## Zoeys mom

My son has an IEP and without it he'd be in a special ed program away from typical children...but if he were in special ed yet functioning behaviorally and academically they'd mainstream him to a normal classroom even if he struggled socially, emotionally, behaviorally, and fell below the academic average. It's kinda a catch 22 honestly. I feel if accommodations do not impair others ability to learn, reduce safety, or offer an unfair advantage then they should be made so that the child in question can succeed.

If one child is receiving an accommodation to facilitate learning typical children do not need than they really aren't getting anything no one else has. Actually if it weren't for some accommodations the disabled child would not get what everyone else has which is a normal education.

My son has both been in special ed and a typical classroom setting both with accommodations such as getting instructions in writing instead of verbally, getting to answer questions verbally for grade, and scribe along with many others. He still has to do the same work and has the same academic goals....he just reaches them differently. A good example is spelling for my son. Ask him how to spell "could" and he will say COULD. Ask him to write the word could and he will spell OUCDL. You see all the letters are there, but that is not the word could- it is jumbled. So should he fail every spelling test because he can not sort the letters out from his brain to paper?

Kids like him don't get held back in a public school system instead they get pushed through regardless of whether or not they can demonstrate the necessary skills So thats where accommodations come in. They figure out how the kid learns and determine if the kid given a different learning plan can demonstrate an understanding of the given material all other kids are given. 

On top of that some kids require speech, occupational therapy, and resource for extra reading, writing, or math time depending on where they are weak. If you can speak audibly you don't need speech and if you are on or above grade level you don't need extra study time- so again these kids aren't getting something other kids can't have....these kids are lucky enough to already have it We're not talking about giving one kid an ice cream cone in front of the class and not sharing with the other students

Being there are no allergy concerns I am more inclined to support a SD in school because it is not reducing the wellbeing of other kids


----------



## Zoeys mom

My children's school has both a GT and GTLD program for students- GTLD is gifted and talented learning disabled. Join the PTA, go to county council meetings, and school board meetings- thats how our county got our's.


----------



## SchDDR

Zoey, thank you for bringing that up.
There seems to be this assumption that learning disabilities = sub-par intelligence.
Hardly. There are many LDs that don't effect intelligence at all, and many learning disabled children are also highly gifted.

I was one of them, and I spent most of my childhood in gifted classes and/or with "enrichment" activities targeted for gifted children.
My exceptionally low grades in math were attributed to "boredom" because I was obviously too advanced for the material.

Hardly- I had learning disorders that went undiagnosed until I was an adult.

The idea that adults seem to have about there being some vast world of different between disabled children and gifted children, hurts ALL children.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Zoeys mom said:


> If one child is receiving an accommodation to facilitate learning typical children do not need than they really aren't getting anything no one else has. Actually if it weren't for some accommodations the disabled child would not get what everyone else has which is a normal education.


Exactly. And perhaps a better attitude for the parents of gifted children would be gratitude that their child does _not_ have a disability requiring special accomodations rather than envy that someone else's child might be getting extra attention because they do.


----------



## codmaster

SchDDR said:


> Zoey, thank you for bringing that up.
> There seems to be this assumption that learning disabilities = sub-par intelligence.
> Hardly. There are many LDs that don't effect intelligence at all, and many learning disabled children are also highly gifted.
> 
> I was one of them, and I spent most of my childhood in gifted classes and/or with "enrichment" activities targeted for gifted children.
> My exceptionally low grades in math were attributed to "boredom" because I was obviously too advanced for the material.
> 
> Hardly- I had learning disorders that went undiagnosed until I was an adult.
> 
> The idea that adults seem to have about there being some vast world of different between disabled children and gifted children, hurts ALL children.


 One huge difference (at least in my experience with our local school system) is in how they are treated by the school and the law. No individual education plan for the gifted child, as an example


----------



## SchDDR

Because no parents have taken the time and effort to fight and lobby the Federal Government to establish laws to provide for that.

If you want that, then go do something about it.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

SchDDR said:


> Because no parents have taken the time and effort to fight and lobby the Federal Government to establish laws to provide for that.


True, but those laws are going to cost money. Do people really want their taxes to go up to pay for programs for kids who are not only NOT at a disadvantage, but are actually ahead of average? I don't see that proposal going over well - most people complain about the taxes they're already paying. :shrug:

I was one of the "smart" kids throughout school, and I didn't have any trouble getting a decent education without any special accomodations. As my mom always told us growing up, there's only so much to go around, and if we take something we don't really need there won't be enough left for those who DO. Most schools are stretched thin as it is and I'd personally rather see those limited resources help the kids that are at a disadvantage.


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## SchDDR

Cassidy's Mom, I don't disagree with you.
I just think if codmaster is going to whine about how horrible it is, then s/he should go do something about it, rather than advocating against the things that someone else has.

Taking rights away from group A never gained group B any rights.


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## Cassidy's Mom

SchDDR said:


> Cassidy's Mom, I don't disagree with you.
> I just think if codmaster is going to whine about how horrible it is, then s/he should go do something about it, rather than advocating against the things that someone else has.
> 
> Taking rights away from group A never gained group B any rights.


No worries, I got your point. Even though I quoted you, my response wasn't really directed at you, it was a general comment geared towards people who think their gifted kids are being shortchanged.


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## Kris10

Cassidy's Mom said:


> True, but those laws are going to cost money. Do people really want their taxes to go up to pay for programs for kids who are not only NOT at a disadvantage, but are actually ahead of average? I don't see that proposal going over well - most people complain about the taxes they're already paying. :shrug:
> 
> I was one of the "smart" kids throughout school, and I didn't have any trouble getting a decent education without any special accomodations. As my mom always told us growing up, there's only so much to go around, and if we take something we don't really need there won't be enough left for those who DO. Most schools are stretched thin as it is and I'd personally rather see those limited resources help the kids that are at a disadvantage.


I hate to take this thread further off topic, but I have to say this country needs to focus on the gifted kids as well. Like it or not they are the future leaders, scientists, etc. It would be a shame not to encourage them to make the most of their intellectual gifts. Classroom boredom can also lead to behavioral problems for these kids. 
I think most school districts have programs for gifted kids or classes with higher levels. I am surprised to hear that some don't actually!


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## kiwilrdg

I hope the next time FCPS student needs a SD it will be easier. There is really no black and white when it comes to education. Everyone has different needs and it is tough for the school to determine how to meet those needs, or even to decide which are needs and which are wants. 

Now back to the tangent. I think as a gifted student with a learning disability I have fared better in life because I learned to understand that my abilities are not the same as others but I learned that that does not mean I should look down on others either. I was in classes for specific learning disabilities sometimes and in classes with kids that were three years older than me at other times. 


> No individual education plan for the gifted child, as an example


 Would you really want to have your grade based on working to your full capacity? I liked that I could learn enough to pass and then goof off.


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## codmaster

SchDDR said:


> Cassidy's Mom, I don't disagree with you.
> I just think if codmaster is going to whine about how horrible it is, then s/he should go do something about it, rather than advocating against the things that someone else has.
> *Taking rights away from group A never gained group B any rights.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> *Exactly what I would expect from you, based on what you have said here already. *
> 
> *BTW where was the whine - just a simple matter of stating the actual facts of what happened - unlike some folks there was no whine! Just stating what happened, and I get a response of "you should cry about it to the govt. and they will fix it!.*
> 
> If you are really so naive to think that giving extra stuff to one group of kids doesn't take something away from another group, then you must assume that the schools (govt.?) have an unlimited budget!
> 
> Hate to inform you of reality - there is a limited amount of money to go around!
> 
> It is a zero sum game!
> 
> Whether we are talking about dollars or teachers time or any other resource - there is a limited amount to spread around.
> 
> If one group gets more then the other group gets less - sad fact of life in the end!


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## Jax08

Here are my thoughts on having a gifted student....

There are many more options open to gifted students. Find the programs! There are online courses that can be taken in addition to regular school. "Gifted" students can be moved up in grades to better challenge them. The teacher could give them extra work, or more challenging work, without creating a whole new program for them. 

Now, my kids...well...my son purposely bombed his PSSA's so that he DIDN"T have to be in the class with the "geeks".


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## Zoeys mom

Well my daughter is in the GT program, is 9, and currently taking HS geometry...she did algebra last year at the age of 8. My son is in the GTLD program because he is intelligent, but autistic and requires different learning methods so they are given to him. In my county both of my very different children's learning methods are being met, and many students from different counties are bused in to receive the same treatment though they are not from our school district. Codmaster it seems you need to further investigate what programs there are in surrounding counties and advocate for your child like so many other parents myself included have. There is a program in every state to meet the educational needs of every child. Maybe not at their school- but somewhere


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## codmaster

Zoeys mom said:


> Well my daughter is in the GT program, is 9, and currently taking HS geometry...she did algebra last year at the age of 8. My son is in the GTLD program because he is intelligent, but autistic and requires different learning methods so they are given to him. In my county both of my very different children's learning methods are being met, and many students from different counties are bused in to receive the same treatment though they are not from our school district. Codmaster it seems you need to further investigate what programs there are in surrounding counties and advocate for your child like so many other parents myself included have. There is a program in every state to meet the educational needs of every child. Maybe not at their school- but somewhere


That is great that your two kids are being taken care of - sounds like a good school system and one to be praised!


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## Denali Girl

Congrats to the Stephens family!!!!! I have been following this thread and I am glad it worked out the way it did.


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## codmaster

Jax08 said:


> Here are my thoughts on having a gifted student....
> 
> There are many more options open to gifted students. Find the programs! *There are online courses that can be taken in addition to regular school. *
> *There was no such thing when my son was in school! Couldn't the disabled also use these programs? But what a howl of protest you would get if you even bothered to suggest it to them! (see the response on this forum!)*
> *I would think at least some of them could do so, even if not all of them would be capable.*
> 
> 
> "Gifted" students can be moved up in grades to better challenge them. The teacher could give them extra work, or more challenging work, without creating a whole new program for them. ............


Most kids would not be ready socially to skip a grade just to get more appropriate academics, and asking teachers to do more work for certain kids would be tough for many to acomplish with their already heavy workload - don't think it would work with many teachers.

And it sounds like you are thinking just like our old school system - the "smart" kids don't need extra help as they will do ok all by themselves! 

Don't many challenged kids advocate the theory *"Every child educated to their full potential"?* - all I am saying is that this is a great theory! And it is too bad that the school system could not follow through on it for really every kid!

Just our experience!


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## SchDDR

I find it unlikely that you're actually unable to discern the difference between advocating that disabled children receive *basic* education online, and providing enrichment in *addition* to basic education online for gifted children.


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## codmaster

SchDDR said:


> I find it unlikely that you're actually unable to discern the difference between advocating that disabled children receive *basic* education online, and providing enrichment in *addition* to basic education online for gifted children.


Huh?

Sorry that you can't follow what I said.


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## Happy The friendly dog

I love my and other dogs dearly, but i do also have to learn to respect others who does not have the same feeling. In this case I strongly believe your opinion to this case is correct. 
I too do work with many childrens, especially the ones who is strongly allergic to pets.


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## SchDDR

codmaster said:


> Huh?
> 
> Sorry that you can't follow what I said.


What you said is, there would be protest if someone were to recommend that disabled children receive basic education online in lieu of regular schooling. 

The manner in which you said it implies that the recommendation is equal to suggesting that gifted children receive educational enrichment online, in addition to basic education.

I find it unlikely that you actually believe that the two are comparable; it's far more likely that you're feigning incomprehension to further the argument.


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## ILGHAUS

One more time..... there was nothing in this case on allergies but we do have a thread to post on that topic and maybe the posters who are debating gifted programs may like to start a thread on that.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...e-dogs/148751-sd-school-allergy-problems.html

Really guys this thread is a very important one in the SD community and it is a shame that the topic is being drowned in discussions on other concerns.


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## Angelo John Stevens

Hello Everyone, been a busy week, I want to remind people that assume this was about just one kid, it was not it was about all kids in all states that have to fight schools to get their service animals, please read my statement below, and thank you for both the positive, negitive pro and con discussion.

Ok so I wanted to update a few things, DOJ is invovled, I will not go into detail but its a positive for us and a negitive for VODE, who ever is spouting off laws that they do not fully understand needs to re-read the law to comprehend their meanings.
The School and Us have reached a tentitive agreement, something we wanted as the family and planned to do all along, we will spend the next several weeks intergrating,educating,and showing the school, teachers, and students, and anyone else interested, Andrews ability to effectively maintain control of his service dog, each week we will evaluate where the next step lies and how to effectively finish the intergration process to phase out the parents and just have Andrew and his Service animal.

Let me be clear on a few matters, we always intended to be part of that process, We and many others including the legal ones that matter still say the school IS in violation of the ADA, and still needs to revise their policy to become compliant with the ADA, and we as the family will offer any assistance to that cause to help develope a policy that is both fair, and compliant so that persons with disabilitys are not fighting the same battle we just did a few months from now.
We are still doing the vigil, however the venue has changed to, yes we have reached a tenitive compromise, however the violations are still present until an official statement of revising the policy is released, or until a revised policy is completed, an effective policy will include advocates from ALL SIDES the disabled, the Allergic, the Fear, the trainers of various agencys etc, you can not create a policy that does not include communications with these resources, otherwise it will continue to be an ineffective policy, and it needs to include the relevant changes to ADA in March of this year, which further defines how schools fit, by further defines I mean leaves no room for interpitation of the fact that service dogs are indeed allowed in schools, and that the same rules apply
You may not ask for proof or demand certifications period, however a good parent advocating for their child will have certifications, from the agency that trained them, and their service animal, just as we had.
Let me be clear again, WE HAVE CERTIFICATIONS, we will not and refused to use an agency that VDOE required as that was a violation of the law.
One last thing I wanted to touch on, my son is neither mentally challenged, nor does he have the mental level of a 5 year old, his education is the level of a 5 year old, however his cognitive level, and his understanding of Epilepsy, and Service animals as evidenced here, and on many other levels far out weigh that of a person 30 years old, he has a life expeirence that no one has unless you live, or are effected by this disease, but my son is very smart, very intune with himself and others, and when you see him, you will understand just why.

I want to end with a thank you, to both the postive responses and the negitive ones, both empower and enlighten us, and yourselves, please join us on March 27th in the national mall for the Walk for Epilepsy, or if you wish you can sponsor us as well, I do implore anyone and everyone to make a donation to the Epilepsy Foundation of America, and to write, call, email your respective Congressmen/Woman and advocate for us on the Turn the White House Purple for Epilepsy awareness, you can find this at Pipers Purple Page,
#!/profile.php?id=100001446449076
Just because you may not currently live with Epilepsy does not mean you can't help advocate for it please support the Walk, and Turning the White House Purple, these combinations help make awareness, and help find a cure, thank you everyone.
God Bless ,
God Bless America,
God Bless the Brave Soldiers, Past, Present, and Future.


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## codmaster

True congrats to you, Angelo and your son.

Even if I might disagree with some things that happened with my son in his school years, it is great that it seemed to have worked out for you guys.

And your little guy will get to bring his dog to school to assist him!


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## Hansel & Gretel

Angelo,
I am really glad you have posted here and I wish you and your son the best. When/where is the new venue for the vigil?

John


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## kiwilrdg

> Hello Everyone, been a busy week, I want to remind people that assume this was about just one kid, it was not it was about all kids in all states that have to fight schools to get their service animals


I am glad that someone who is reasonable (based on the things that you have posted) is fighting this fight. There will be no ideal solution since your child will still have Epilepsy. I am glad you are working on a policy that is a compromise that considers everyone involved and that you are continuing until the law is followed. I posted a few comments early in the thread that were based on the news coverage but your added information changed my opinion on the situation.


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## ILGHAUS

kiwilrdg said:


> I posted a few comments early in the thread that were based on the news coverage but your added information changed my opinion on the situation.


I will also admit that my first reaction was oh no not another set of parents claiming that their child has rights to drag a half-trained dog into a classroom and making unreasonable demands on the teacher and school. 

As I told Mr. Stevens, I still believe that each case must be looked at on an individual basis and I do not believe that some of these dogs being claimed trained and necessary should be taken into the schools. 

Even though I am an advocate for SD teams, I believe very strongly that certain standards must be maintained no matter the age of the disabled handler and that the needs of all parties involved must be given consideration in the final decision. 

Mr. Stevens and his family have my respect for their manner of presentation of their side and the respect they themselves have shown toward even those who do not agree with them. It is refreshing to see parents advocate for their child after thinking it important to educate themselves and not just demanding that others follow their wishes. 

It is my hope that other parents will follow the manner in which the Stevens' family began and followed through by seeking to educate themselves, by wanting to sit down and discuss the situation with all sides, and by acknowledging that all the children and their safety and education are of upmost importance (no matter from where they start) to assist them to reach the maximum possible.


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## Angelo John Stevens

It has been a pleasure and a privledge to be invited, accepted and an active member of this board, thank you to everyone here and invovled.

I do agree each case needs to be carefully looked at, while still respecting the law, and I do fully agree a Handler MUST be able to handle their service animal, or an advocate that is trusted must stand in.

Yesterdays Vigil was a great success, Alaya and Andrew performed better then even I or his trainer expected, Andrew commanded his partner with ease, and the others around him that wanted to pet his partner, he carefull explained No, shes working.

Andrew and I walked to the Board, and waited our turn and then we presented our case, the entire time, Andrew had full control of Alaya with no words from me other then to the board.

Andrew, is an inspriration, one many should learn from and follow, I am simply the vessel he speaks though, I really do get tears when i see how strong, and brave he truely is, undaunting and unwilling to hide (He gets that from mom).

I ended my comment with this, Andrew lives with Epilepsy, you do not, we suffer the knowledge we can lose him, you do not, Andrew is my hero, and today, hes also yours.

Powerful words added to the fact several medias were there that had constant view of Andrew, a person who was viewed as unable to control a Service Animal, completely controled his dog, in front of a board that said they could not trust him, more powerful then any words that can be spoken.

VDOE violates the ADA, but that by no means means anyone should bring a service dog, there has to be SOME standards, clearly a demonstration of behaviour, and demeanor as well as the reflection of the team in action, is far better then making demands, work with them, not against them.

We are not done yet, the VDOE Policy needs to change, and part of that change needs to invovle familes from all sides, trainers from all sides, advocates from all sides, you can not simply google information and toss it into a policy and call it effective, and if anything comes out of this, I hope its that.

I think the reason why this worked so well, is because I am Military, and I must always see ALL Sides, I never went into this just thinking of me, or Andrew, but everyone, the area, the students, the teachers, the law, the trainers,the epilepsy,the allergies,the fears, I beleive I fairly, and I must say accurately argued the case as it was laid out, the difference is and will always be, Proof, is in the eye, and the actions of those presenting.

Again, I plan to stay in touch, I am working with some trainers to work on a specfic standard test for Service Dogs, and I believe its a fundemental one that needs to be looked into.

Incidently this is Alayas training, which we demonstrated to the school before she was denied.

Seizure Alert Dogs for Life: Advocating for National Standards for Service Dogs in Public Schools

Thanks and God Bless you all.


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## Kaia

Hi Mr. Stevens, I have a couple of questions if you don't mind answering them. 

I am disabled too and have been following this case with great interest as I'm a service dog handler as well. Access issues are very concerning. 

First off, is the information in this article accurate? And if so, what reputable organization places an intact bitch as a service animal? Especially with a child. Twice a year the dog is going to be out of commission. And I would think that presents a safety hazard not only because of her inability to work but also to her luring unneutered roaming male dogs. It seems unfair to expect a child handler to deal with potentially aggressive off leash males approaching and distracting his service animal, or harming him. 

Once-Banned Service Dog in Heat, Not in School | NBC Washington

Assistance Dogs International, the organization that accredits service dog training programs states in their guidelines that intact dogs are not to be placed as working animals.

Training Standards - Assistance Dogs International

Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I hope things work out for the best with your son's case.


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## Zoeys mom

I have to argue an intact female is not unable to work twice a year...thats kinda ludicrous IMO, but if it's true I'm going to use this excuse to take off work a week out of every month- wouldn't want to lure any intact males or anything. How many intact males are roaming schools anyway? You can argue the ethics of the training facility all you want the bottom line is they have produced many working capable dogs- not every dog will make the cut as you know


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## Kaia

Zoeys mom said:


> I have to argue an intact female is not unable to work twice a year...thats kinda ludicrous IMO, but if it's true I'm going to use this excuse to take off work a week out of every month- wouldn't want to lure any intact males or anything. How many intact males are roaming schools anyway? You can argue the ethics of the training facility all you want the bottom line is they have produced many working capable dogs- not every dog will make the cut as you know


You can't take an intact female, in season, all over the countryside and expect everybody else is going to have their intact male dogs properly restrained. Too many people are irresponsible, there are strays, etc. and like I said, it's especially unfair and unsafe to expect a child to be responsible for that. I worked for several years in an elementary school and it wasn't uncommon for stray/loose dogs to get onto the playground during recess, or wander onto the grounds out front while kids were boarding the school bus.

Part of being a service dog handler is also making sure your dog is clean and presentable. Intact females are messy in season, needing their "undies" changed periodically. An adult or mature child could handle that no problem I'm sure, but it's hugely impractical. There is no practical reason to place an intact female as a service dog. 

As for Jonny, I just find it hard to believe any dog, much less a german shepherd, was somehow unable to learn to sit. And that's why I was concerned perhaps he had hip issues that nobody checked for. It says on the blog that if you touch his hip lightly he'll sit. I fostered a dyplastic hound that was the same way. He'd refuse to sit when asked unless you touched his hip.


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## ILGHAUS

> I have to argue an intact female is not unable to work twice a year...thats kinda ludicrous IMO,


Zoeys mom, forgive me but with so many members I don't remember but what type of work does your girl do?


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## Zoeys mom

My girl just came out of heat and was quite clean- have you had a bitch in heat before? We change her three times a day morning, after school, and before bed- so the dog wouldn't have to be changed during school hours anyway. I'm also not sure where your from but in MD and Northern VA I can assure you there are no stray dogs wondering around on playgrounds- wouldn't happen most are fenced in for safety reasons as it is I also wouldn't believe everything you read on a blog I highly doubt a training facility would even hold onto a dog that couldn't be trained to sit after three years...thats highly impractical


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## Zoeys mom

My girl does no work so to speak except fetch items for my autistic son and calm his tantrums- she does this just the same in heat or not honestly. Obviously this boy's dog is alerting to his seizures just the same as well and I have yet to meet an altered schutz dog. I also have an intact male that can behave while my female is in heat and others for that matter- he's trained to listen to the word leave it though he doesn't want to of course...he does I can see it would be dangerous to have a loose intact male around a female in heat with no one to step in, but I don't know why being in heat other than that impedes a dog's ability to work? Can you fill me in? My female listens the same, is just as alert to my son, and other than a reduced appetite is the same old Zoe.


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## AbbyK9

> I also wouldn't believe everything you read on a blog I highly doubt a training facility would even hold onto a dog that couldn't be trained to sit after three years...thats highly impractical


If I am not mistaken, the blog Kaia is referring to, which is linked in the post, is the official website for the organization who trained Andrew's Service Dog Alaya.


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## Zoeys mom

I also really want to know why a bitch in heat can't work- I've never heard this before today. My Grandfather owned and trained hunting dogs all his life and never altered one of them- always worked them though. Many show dogs are not altered and many dogs competing in Schutzhund are also not altered. I know an SD is working all the time for it's owner unlike in these venues, but training for these venues is a daily thing as well.


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## Kaia

It's more a matter of the handler's safety than the dog's ability. When you're a handler you have to be aware of your disability, how it's affecting you, what's happening in your surroundings (for example, if you've got seizures awareness of whether you're standing in a safe place if something should happen), what your dog is doing, giving your dog instructions, etc. If you add in factors specific to the handler's disability, working in public with a female in season can become a real hazard for the handler. 

For example, if the handler is physically weakened or their mobility impaired they may not be able to stop an off leash dog from mounting their female. 

You're lucky people are better dog owners where you live. I live in Washington State, and moved there from Arizona. Both places we had huge issues with idiots letting their dogs off lead and shouting, "Don't worry he's friendly!" as their dog came up and got in my dog's face. More than once one of these "friendly" dogs has decided to attack mine. It's at the point where I carry an airhorn now. He was very nearly ruined when a great dane decided to attack us and left a huge scar on his face. That required going back and retraining him to ignore dogs again, since he was understandably frightened after that. 

And yes, I own an intact female, she's not my service dog however. My service dog is male and he is neutered because his growth plates are done closing and there are no plans to breed him (his sire is still intact, and a sister was recently bred for a litter of prospects so he was not needed). My female just came out of her first heat ever. She is a heavy bleeder and needed to be changed 5-6 times a day. When I took her on walks I had both the airhorn and a cane. Twice I had to use the cane to drive away roaming males that tried to mount her when the airhorn didn't work. I just can't imagine expecting a child handler to deal with that. Especially when there aren't any substantial health/behavioral benefits to leaving a female intact.


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## Zoeys mom

Now that I totally understand...other people's dogs can definitely pose an issue for an SD whether in heat or not- I thought the comments were referring to actual working ability and was stumped.


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## Larien

I'm very happy to see that Andrew's father joined this forum to participate in the discussion, and I'm glad they're reaching an agreement! I wish your son nothing but the best with his gorgeous dog in the future, please give them both a hug from me!

I recently got an email from an old pal at the shelter I used to work at, she told me a remarkable story about a similar boy I thought I'd share with you guys. A family went in to adopt a dog, and didn't find one they liked on the adoption floor. But as they were leaving, a dog getting ready to be put up for adoption in a few days caught their attention by barking excitedly and jumping on the fence of the outdoor play area. They went to see him, and he was very friendly and loving, especially to one of their sons. They went back in, talked to the coordinator, and arranged to come back and adopt him when he was ready.

So they ended up adopting the dog, Max, and took him home. A couple of nights later, Max was in the son's bedroom laying on top of the son and barking wildly. Alarmed, the parents rushed into the room - and the boy began having a grand mal seizure, the first seizure he'd ever had. Even after the paramedics came, the dog refused to leave the boy and had to be physically lifted off of him by the EMTs.

He was diagnosed with epilepsy, and a couple of weeks later had another seizure, this time also detected by the dog, who again laid on top of him and barked for his parents. The family is eternally grateful for their miracle dog, who alerted them to their son's condition, and probably chose them that day at the shelter, when he recognized the boy's problem, I think. Such a heartwarming story, I cried when I read it.

Just goes to show how important this type of dog is, whether it's a highly trained SD or a kid's best buddy, they do their people a world of good, and we're lucky to have such great canines among us!


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## codmaster

***Edited out as a request of the owner of the company. His involvement does not affect the direction of the discussion***. 

Sorry everyone.

Stew


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## ILGHAUS

Zoeys mom said:


> You can argue the ethics of the training facility all you want the bottom line is they have produced many working capable dogs- not every dog will make the cut as you know


I can't find the link to where it shows numbers of their dogs. Can someone post it for those of us that seem to be overlooking it? Thanks.


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## Dainerra

I think that it is because no one knows why certain dogs ALERT to seizures - I am assuming that by "alert" they mean that the dog will predict that a seizure is imminent. That is very different than training a dog to react to a seizure that has already started - ie use an emergency phone or otherwise aid the owner.

I don't believe that "alerting" itself is trainable.


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## Kaia

Dainerra said:


> I think that it is because no one knows why certain dogs ALERT to seizures - I am assuming that by "alert" they mean that the dog will predict that a seizure is imminent. That is very different than training a dog to react to a seizure that has already started - ie use an emergency phone or otherwise aid the owner.
> 
> I don't believe that "alerting" itself is trainable.


That is correct Dainerra. My dog alerts about 15 minutes ahead of time, which is extremely lucky and handy. The most anyone can hope for is to pick the best prospect possible, train it for public access and tasks, and hope it's one of those special dogs that will alert. There is some indication that the ability runs in certain families. My dog's sire alerts to seizures and heart problems. I don't know if any of his siblings alert.

Alerting by itself isn't considered a task since it cannot be trained. Many disability advocacy groups recommend the dog be trained for at least three tasks in addition to any alerting skill they have in case their validity is ever challenged in court.


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## ILGHAUS

I was only able to see and listen to part of this video today but the quality of what I saw seems very nice.

From Epilepsy Foundation 
http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/


Seizure Response Dogs in School - Epilepsy Foundation


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## shepherd513

Hansel & Gretel said:


> I agree with you about the pet thing. I have seen a lot of people with "service dogs" that looked and acted like a pet. Believe me, I have rolled my eyes a few time.
> 
> Hey, just a thought: I know there is a big debate about service dogs allowed in schools, etc. etc. due to it being possible harmful to other kids due to allergies, distractions and so forth.
> 
> However, when out in public, just because a service dog doesn't look like one, don't judge that it's not one. I have a pup who is training to be a servie dog. He is for siezure alert. I can drive, my siezure disorder is minor, but is there none the less. My dog is being trained for detection, balance if I've had a siezure, to bring me my phone, and some other things. But I look normal, but he is progressing with his training so well and learning to be a huge help to me.
> 
> What is the most encouraging to me, is when people welcome the service dog. Now, having said that, if a dog behaves in a misconductful manor, that is another story. Gideon is SO good out in public and overall, people seem to appreciatte seeing him out. That is an encouragment to me.


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## AbbyK9

> However, when out in public, just because a service dog doesn't look like one, don't judge that it's not one.


Based on your post, you do not have a Service Dog, you have a Service Dog in Training (SDIT), which fall under entirely different guidelines than fully trained Service Dogs do. In most states, SDITs don't even have any public access rights, even if they are with their disabled owner/handler.


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## Lin

AbbyK9 said:


> Based on your post, you do not have a Service Dog, you have a Service Dog in Training (SDIT), which fall under entirely different guidelines than fully trained Service Dogs do. In most states, SDITs don't even have any public access rights, even if they are with their disabled owner/handler.


Correct! Do you know your states laws on SDITs?

Keep posting! We have a nice group here with service dogs. I have an owner trained SD as well. And I don't look disabled. If I'm not using my crutch, the only way to notice anything would be to look very closely and notice my limp or see my wrist splints. I frequently get asked if I'm training the dog for someone else because I don't look disabled. 

But as far as behavior goes, very different standards for a pet, SDIT, and SD! Though lately my dog has been acting a bit like a SDIT again. Unfortunately she's had a lot of health issues in the past year with large breaks from work (4 months off for a broken leg.)


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## shepherd513

AbbyK9 said:


> Based on your post, you do not have a Service Dog, you have a Service Dog in Training (SDIT), which fall under entirely different guidelines than fully trained Service Dogs do. In most states, SDITs don't even have any public access rights, even if they are with their disabled owner/handler.


You are right, he is a SDIT. I apologize that I was not clear. That is one thing that I am big on, is that I do not misrepresent my dog. He has a vest that is marked as service dog but has two clips that say very largly IN TRAINING clipped on to it. I will not take those clips off until both myself and the trainer whom I am working with feel he is ready. When I take him out in public, I ask permission. However, I have not had any place deny me access with him. I have not been pushy about it. I call ahead of time, make it very clear that he is in training, and then proceed.


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## kiwilrdg

I wish more people would do their research before getting the diploma mill style SD papers and going out with their pets. The few people that abuse the system make it difficult for people who want to use the system properly. Most people here are reasonable in expectations for acceptance (not expecting to be allowed to take a SD bungee jumping etc) and concerned about controlling the animal.


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## hunterisgreat

paulag1955 said:


> If this were a guide dog for a blind child, do you think another child's allergy should be allowed to take precedence?


The kid with the allergy needs a guide miniatur-pony to alert him to when dogs are near.

Problem solved


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## kiwilrdg

> The kid with the allergy needs a guide miniatur-pony to alert him to when dogs are near.
> 
> Problem solved


As long as we are getting foolish about this 

No, the kid with allergies would also need a service monkey to lead the dog away from him.


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## Angelo John Stevens

Hello to everyone, I wanted to stop by and give an update since most of you are and were very supportive.

Andrew and Alaya have been going to school 3 days a week, for a while now with no issues, Andrew and Alaya ride the bus, get off the bus, walk the halls take the elevator enter class, and then learn.

Alaya Alerts the teachers and students 90% of the time to oncoming Seizures, she responds when the teachers are distracted, and has provided a very diverse and educating enviorment for students and teachers alike.

On March 15th the VDOE produced a new service dog policy that makes it much more inviting and simple for familys to have service dogs in the entire state of virginia, providing the parents, which we strongly agree with, are part of the intergration process.

It is our belief that a service dog needs to be under the control of its handler if that is not possible a handler needs to be provided, we never disagreed with this, nor will we ever.

Service dogs are highly effective at saving lives and providing some sort of normalcy for people in general.

Our fight however is far from over, and nor is yours, we must strive for standards, country wide so other citizens will not face the same battles, and it starts with the first person standing up.

So thank you again to everyone that provided support, thoughts, advice and critisism, strength is truely measured in the devotion of a parent and an American willing to fight the tough battles, I do that as a Soldier, and as a Parent, and most importantly as an American.

God bless you all.

Signed- Angelo John Stevens.


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## beaderdog

I'm glad to hear that things are going so well for your family. A hard fight won, which gives a boost to the rest of us.


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## kiwilrdg

You family will help more people than you will ever realize. By being persistent but reasonable you have not only helped the schools adopt policies that take all parties into account but the students at the schools will gain a better understanding of what can be accomplished despite setbacks and difficulties.


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