# Prong Collar



## Brimauster (Dec 9, 2007)

Some of you may not like what I have to say, but...

My 11 week old pup has been giving me some problems while outside for potty breaks. I do not have a fenced yard and the road is pretty close to the area I'm using for a "Relief Zone", so I need to have her on a leash. 

Anyway, I've been using a flat leather buckle collar and Riley just will not behave outside. She hops around, picks up sticks, leaves, acorns, just about anything she can pick up in her mouth. If she sees the cat, or a car, or anything else for that matter... Well forget it, she goes bonkers, and will totally forget why we are out there.

So I put a small sized prong collar on her, took her out again.... Whole new dog! I used a prong on my first GSD many years ago, but she was bigger and older at the time I first used it. But my little Riley was so much better... all it took was a few gentle tugs to get her attention. When it was just the flat collar, she would ignore any kind of correction "pops" I gave her. But with the prong... she got the message! 

I thought it might be a little harsh for such a young pup, but she's a pretty stout dog already. I am fully aware if possible injury to her neck, so I really don't pop the leash, I just hold it and let her do the popping to herself if she gets boisterous. But with the prong on, she is much more mellow, she knows the difference.

Some may argue that she's too young for it, but it works and she shows no signs of distress or anything like that.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

SHE IS WAY WAY TOO YOUNG. Trust me you are traumatising her. Let her be a puppy. It goes by too fast. Very sad.
I am in no way against useing a prong collar. It was invaluable with my boxer. I am against useing it too early. IMO it is a lazy fix that you will regret down the road.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I am a prong collar advocate, I you are right I do not like what you said.

11 weeks old is WAY, W A Y, W A YYYYY, to young for a prong collar. Yep you are getting the results you want now, but you are ruining the drives of your dog. GSD's have drives, like play and prey. You can teach a dog while it is play or prey drive.

Val


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

An 11 week old ins't SUPPOSED to behave. They are supposed to hop around, try and grab stuff, want to chase things. So what if she pulls on the collar? Have you introduced focus training with treats? It takes longer, takes more work, but it teaches your puppy to focus on YOU, and it makes learning fun! It makes YOU fun and the center of the universe. Using a prong at this age is going to make her afraid to do anything, and could cause developmental problems. She might just shut down completely. Not something I would want to risk. 

Prongs are for older dogs when they are more mature, why should an 11 week old puppy be corrected for being a an 11 week old puppy?

Give yourself more time for potty breaks so she can have a bit of fun. Give her outlets for her "chase" energy. 

She does sound like a handful though! Just have fun with her, teach her, reward good behaviour. Corrections come much later.


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## Maraccz (Sep 3, 2005)

Agreed WAY too young.

She is an 11 wk. old puppy, they have NO attention span. It is normal. Maybe you need to move your "go zone".

I use prongs on my gsds but NEVER until they are older.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

You are right, I don't like it.

You have to understand than Riley is not misbehaving, she is simply acting like a normal 11 weeks GSD pup, so there is no need to punish her by being happy. I understand your reasons to keep her on a leash, but in this particular case there is no difference with using the prong and slapping her in the face by being jumpy. 

I'm not worried by the injuries to her neck, I'm worried by the injuries to her healthy development. You call it mellow, I call it inhibited.

ETA: And a pup, not behaving like a pup by fear to be punished IS a sign of distress.


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## Kaylas Mom (Oct 6, 2007)

Aww she is just a baby..and way to young for a prong.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

She sounds like a normal and crazy young GSD. And I also love the prong BUT use it when my dog is older and STRONGER. So I need the advantage of the prong to level the field in that way (and usually more like 6 months or older).

For my younger dogs that were also full of crazy ENERGY, what I would have to do is bleed off their energy so they would listen. Young pups have the attention span of a gnat and the vigor and energy of a Tasmanian Devil. So if I can work LONG bouts of real exercise (by the way, I just went on an over 2 mile long hike in the woods with an off leash 8 week old German Shorthair Pointer, who's mom just reported back the puppy wasn't any more quiet than normal when they go back home......). 'Real' exercise is what I can see in my pups. If they are tired, really tired, I should see it. They should nap more, focus more, be so well behaved!!!!

And their attention span increases as well! I'd prefer to use food treats, praise, the clicker while they are still young and supposed to be puppies.

Also I go to puppy classes to get the help from the instructor. See what the other puppy owners are having to deal with, how we are doing in comparison. What we are doing well in and what we need to work on. The general socialization from the car ride, extra time with me, excitement from the class and other puppies, and the learning ALSO help my puppy be better behaved for the rest of the day!


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Your puppy is just showing natural curiosity and eagerness at what delights her.

She is a baby and holding her to the standards of an adult dog is analogous to expecting a toddler to show decorum.

If you squelch her natural drives and desire to explore and play she will never grow into her potential.

If you do not like having or cannot care for a puppy, please rehome her.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you're kidding right? 11 weeks old and going bonkers. hops around, picks up sticks, leafs. it's suppose to act that way. start socializing your puppy. at 11 weeks old my puppy was in puppy classes and they had cats there so the dogs could get introduced while they're young. now when my dog sees cats theres no bad reaction. not to long ago my trainers cat came into the room where my boy was. my puppy went over to him and licked his face and started playing. of course the cat was use to dogs. no prong, train your dog and let it be a puppy.


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## fourdogsrule (May 10, 2007)

I agree, way to young for the prong collar. I use them on our dogs but only when needed. The first time they got a prong collar put on them was when they where about 1 year old. Puppies are puppies and puppies are going to act like puppies.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with the others. WAY too young for a prong collar, and it sounds like your expectations are far above and beyond what an 11 week old puppy is capable of. Her behavior is perfectly normal for a happy, healthy, well adjusted puppy. It is unfair and inappropriate, and may create trust and relationship issues between the two of you down the road, if you continue to punish a young puppy for acting like a puppy.


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## Brimauster (Dec 9, 2007)

WOW! I guess I should let you all know that the only time I use it is for potty breaks when she's being unruly. I put it on, take her out, she does her business, we go in, collar comes off. 

I do NOT use it to discipline her, 5-10 minutes tops, and then it is off. She acts normal otherwise. 

I am doing focus training, she will be in a class in two weeks, in the house she plays, lets me handle her ears, feet, teeth, tail etc...and is a normal pup. I give her lots of love, and she returns it ten-fold. 

I'm not new to this, I've had dogs before, a GSD, a Lab, and two Italian Greyhounds.

I don't believe for a second that she's being "traumatized", she is being taken out for a reason, (potty), and the prong reminds her of that fact. For walks I use the flat collar and she does great, no pulling or veering off... right beside my left leg all the way. 

In the two weeks I've had her, I've only had to use it three or four times when she was acting up. Jeez... I don't drag her around the yard with it! 

I realize a lot of you feel like I'm doing it all wrong, or that I'll hurt her or create developmental problems. Well, I don't envision having to use it all the time. Just until she realizes that when we go to that part of the yard, it's for a reason and I expect her to do her business. Like I said, my yard is NOT fenced, and there are some dog owners in my neighborhood who let their dogs roam free, and they cr*p all over my yard. Although I clean up my dogs' poop, I can't always pick up the "stray" dogs' stuff. It's a potty break, not playtime, and I don't want her rolling around in mud and pee and poop. If the collar helps reach that end, then it's done it's job and I'll put it away.

I respect your views and concerns, and I hear what you are saying. I really do. I myself feel that 11 weeks is too young and I wish that it wasn't necessary to use it, but, the difference in the way she behaves is why I use it. Potty trips only, and only when she's acting up. Most of the time she's fine and the flat collar is acceptable. But sometimes she needs a little extra control, and that is when I use it. I love my dog to tears, and would never hurt her just so I can have an easy time. She is well loved and cared for. I posted this for general information for those who might be thinking about it for their own dog.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I don't believe that people are saying that you don't love your dog. I believe that people are concerned at the use of corrective based training in such a young pup. And I also believe that people are recommending patience on your part and a different approach to the whole "potty" business. 

I find that reward based training works really well with dogs of all ages. When the dog pees or poops I say, "Good pee (or poop)" or mark the behavior with some praise word. Then I give the dog a treat. Pretty quickly you can attach a command to that and they will go on command.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Sorry but your pup isn't allowed to be a pup when she is outside for a potty brake or when she is out for a walk she has to be glued to your left leg. When does she get time to explore, sniff the ground, check out things. I agree with Chris I think you are expecting way to much from an 11 week old pup.

When I went back and read your post again, I don't see where you really asked for any advice, so we are all just wasting our time posting this for you to read.

You can do what you feel in right or you could take the time to see what might be the right thing for the pup. An 11 week old pup is suppost to be full of life bouncing around exploring everything it can, not a little wind up robot at your side.


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

I don`t use a prong till 5 to 8 months BUT I have an acre and a half and I`m not on a busy road. I guess I would have to see how it`s being used. If there is little or no correction and the feeling of it around her neck seems to let her know that potty breaks need to be done expeditiously them maybe it`s not all bad. 
Just know that a gentle tug is very different then even a gentle pop and make sure that your pup does have plenty of time and freedom to be a puppy full of energy.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

Teaching the dog to wait until you aren't around to eat all these things and explore these places it can't while you keep that collar on.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Brimauster, I think you love your puppy! I really do! And I think you believe you are doing the right thing with the collar.









Our point is, that we would prefer you praise, treat, reward your young puppy when she does RIGHT. Rather than feeling you have to use the prong to correct when she does wrong. 

I know I train all my puppies to go right outside immediately to their poo/pee place to squat. So they take care of that as soon as we exit the house. With the puppy party I give they learn to LOVE to go pee/poo for me. Then we play and continue to stay outdoors for awhile.

I have had some friends (not saying this is your situation) that accidentally 'taught' their puppies that as soon as they are done with their business the fun of the great outdoors is OVER and they immediately get taken back in the house. So the owners started noticing a similar situation to yours, the puppies started NOT pooping/peeing immediately cause they realized the longer they took to squat, the more time they got to have fun in the yard. So weird how we think we teach our dogs one thing when they are learning something else entirely! 

Most of us love and use the prong collar. We just feel that for such a young puppy, that is clearly just showing 'play' behavior, it's not appropriate. Punishment for play, on a puppy, isn't clear. You may THINK you are 'teaching' your puppy to focus/pay attention and pee. While you may actually be teaching your puppy that normal play behavior with you is wrong. Or sniffing is wrong (not good in a tracking dog LOL). 

Do you have a local park/fenced in area you can play with when you take your dog out? So you can just be playing with the pup and she'll just poo/pee when she has to. And no leash even needed if the area is safe and within a fence.

Interesting side note: when I first started owning dogs and training them, it was all about seeing my dog's do something wrong so I could then correct them to show them that wasn't right. So it USED to be (and this was also with trainers and in dog classes) all about actually setting up our dogs to do something wrong so we could 'correct' them with a choke or prong collar. So my poor first dog spent her training career doing wrong wrong wrong and being corrected corrected corrected..............(poor baby).

The current mindset for most dog training, especially for puppies, is to have an active and thinking member of the dog training 'team'. And the 'team' is made up of the pup AND the handler. With both of us having to THINK come up with ideas and being innovative. Because, and listen to this cause it rocked my world initially







It's about 'How can I THINK of ways to have my puppy do something RIGHT?'. Not just pop/correct on a leash (which is way easier and my instructor told me was the lazy way to train). I need to come up with a plan and see if it works. Using praise, treats, toys. 

I want my pup to WANT to listen, want to learn, want to try new things to find out which of the new things is RIGHT! To earn my praise and reward. Rather than them end up being cautious and always getting corrected for being WRONG. 

And I do correct my dogs. There are things that are wrong. But it's more along the lines of safety (jerking me off my feet by pulling the leash when they are adult? Running after a deer? Attacking another dog?) rather than almost any general training issues. Positive training isn't permissive....

Frankly, I want to be my dogs leader. And someone they want to listen to, learn from, and have guidance from. Not someone they feel they HAVE to listen to, or else.......

Some good sites to look at are:

http://www.clickerdogs.com/trainingreminders.htm

http://www.caninemind.com/id1.html

http://r-plusdogtraining.info/guide.htm


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I can't quite figure out why you would need a pronged collar for potty breaks. Being a puppy is not bad behavior, and exploring does not equal unruly. Discounting the dog's age, using a pronged collar for potty training just doesn't seem right.

When my GSD was a pup I would get up 2-3 times every night, go ouside with the dog and wait until he went potty. Because I am retired I never had to cage train the dog, yet he was house broken at about 11 months. My yard is also unfenced.

When I first signed on to this board, every now and then I would say something that literally everyone disagreed with. Eventually, I figured out that they were right.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Remove duplicate post.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:When I first signed on to this board, every now and then I would say something that literally everyone disagreed with. Eventually, I figured out that they were right.


























Hey, same for me!!!


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Brimauster,

I am a prong advocate, and have used one on every dog I have ever owned. BUT, the only reason I can see using one on a pet is to control pulling (i.e. the power steering comparison many use). An 11 week old puppy cannot pull enough to create any real difficulty for you unless you were severly handicapped. Since you have not mentioned this, I assume you are not. Puppies run all over the place, act goofy, try to eat everything (I called my female hoover for a while) and have fun. I applaud you for keeping her on leash and supervising potty breaks especially by the road. But, here is the big BUT...

*If your pup stops acting like the goofy pup she is because she has a prong on it means she is under negative stress. Putting a pup under this much negative stress DOES traumatize them. *

I trained my first GSD 10 years ago using the scruf of the neck -100% compulsion from a very young age. I was wrong, and it hurt his development and YES it traumatized him. He was a very late bloomer due to me being a domineering idiot. 

Get a long line (22 ft.) and have her drag it on a flat collar. Take her out, have her run around a bit and then take her to the potty spot and tell her to go potty. If she does not go just keep saying go potty. When she does go, immediately give her the highest value treat she has and immediately take her in while saying good potty. Repeat. Our GSD's are very smart. She will pick this up easily within a week. The long line will keep her safe.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Brimauster
> the difference in the way she behaves is why I use it. Potty trips only, and only when she's acting up. Most of the time she's fine and the flat collar is acceptable. But sometimes she needs a little extra control, and that is when I use it. I love my dog to tears, and would never hurt her just so I can have an easy time. She is well loved and cared for. I posted this for general information for those who might be thinking about it for their own dog.


But you are still doing something that is plain wrong, wathever your reason are. Now there is for potty training, in a month or so, when she start to pull the leash on the walks (and she will do) then it's gonna be another good reason "just for walks". And when she be 4-5 months and her jumping on people become more bothering then it's gonna be another good reason "just to stop that behaviour".

And to have owned others dog before is not guarantee of your knowledge, you wouldn't believe how much I screw up with the first dog I trained. And I loved her to tears. But you are already helping to those who could be thinking about for their own dog. Now they are learning that that is not the way to go.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, here is my advice, take it or leave it as you weren't asking anyway. I think you know your pup is too young. And that is why you posted. I think you were hoping someone would agree with you. 

Why not go to the store and buy two four foot, eight panel x-pens? Then put them together in your yard in a safe place. If you use the side of the house or shed it can be an even larger area. I use self tapping screws with eyelets on the ends and clip the x-pen to them. 

This is not for you to leave the puppy ouside in alone. This is for you to allow the puppy to explore a safe area of your yard, to romp outside which is different then romping inside of the house, to find the perfect poopie place, to pick up sticks and any other thing he finds in his safe area. After he potties, give him a treat and praise "good potty", and let him romp and play a bit longer. Some dogs find that if pottying causes the play time to end they will hold it longer. 

Trust me, with enough liver or chicken, "good potty" will morph into "go potty" and get excellent results. Once the puppy potties on demand, you can start varying treats and praise. Praise is free and should be used liberally. After pottying is complete, you can thow his ball for him, or take him for a walk so he understands that good things happen after we potty. 

Eleven week old puppies are not unruly, ever. They are energetic, playful, curious, fearful, etc. 

Normal pack behavior allows puppies a get out of jail free card until they are nearly five months old. All the dogs in the pack pretty much allow the pup to crawl over them, pull their ears and tails, eat their food and any number of doggy behaviors that would not be otherwise tolerated. Somewhere between four and five months old, this license is revoked and older pack members start teaching them what is appropriate behavior. Your puppy is not there yet. 

You can beat your dog in to submission, kick him every day, and have an obedient robot dog. Sadly, this dog will love you and lay down his life for you 99 times out of 100. So training a puppy harshly can give you exactly what you want down the line. Some of us want our dogs to retain their spirit and do things we want willingly because it is fun. We also know that a softer dog can be completely ruined, untrusting and fearful. If you do have one that is afraid of you, you will find how difficult it is to repair that, or you will have to give up on the dog. So just because you have raised dogs before, it does not mean that this dog will do ok under the same treatment. Most GSDs are very sensitive. They have incredible memories. And what happens to them between 3 and 16 weeks can make a huge difference in how they respond to everything down the line. 

So no way would I use a choke or a prong on a puppy this young. 

If your puppy soils in the house or demolishes a prized possession, take a newspaper, roll it up, and beat yourself over the head with it several times for not watching your puppy.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I wish I could express myself as well as you have. The word "control" is the key. The first time I used a pronged collar was about when the dog was 10 months old and twice chased and almiost bit joggers and bike riders. This had to be corrected and literally a few jerks on a tight collar resolved that situation.

The second, and recently posted, was because of an ear infection. Simply putting the collar on the dog, without ever jerking, allowed him to settle and me to apply his medication. And of course he loves his treats for behaving well, raw turkey necks and raw beef.


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> When I first signed on to this board, every now and then I would say something that literally everyone disagreed with. Eventually, I figured out that they were right.


MRL, you never noticed the band wagon syndrome? People with absolutely no knowledge or experience on certain subjects will chime in with who they perceive to have the popular or leader opinion. It`s the sheep mentality. I watched a couple people here that not long ago got their first dog and now post like seasoned veterans.

I would at very least limit it to between 10PM and 6AM. For me those are the new puppy hours where it`s out, get it done and back in. Personally that is not play or sniff time even if it`s a new pup for me.


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## JAguirre (Dec 19, 2000)

Wow!!

A lot of people who have posted negatively on this subject do have expanded knowledge and experience. Why post something if you don't want advice. But hey, you got someone to agree with you, so ... it must be OK.

Double wow!!!


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Selzer, great post and great idea. I never thought about putting up an exercise pen or two in the area that you want to teach a puppy to potty. That is a good idea.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

That your 11 week old pup goes on walks and stays oby your side the WHOLE time is so so sad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What is your hurry? Please even if you do not think you are wrong isn't it better to error on the side of caution? 

This is my first GSD but my BOXER has been trained to be a service dog. If you have ever met a boxer you know what a feat this is. Energy and enthusiasim to burn so trust me I know aggrevation. 
Also being my first GSD I am a little intimidated and with all my heart want him to be a good citizen BUT ALL IN GOOD TIME. He is a huge goofy happy pup right now.


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## Brimauster (Dec 9, 2007)

> Quote:That your 11 week old pup goes on walks and stays oby your side the WHOLE time is so so sad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 What is so sad about it? Isn't that kind of the point? To train them to walk calmly beside us? Am I missing something?

First of all, I do _NOT_ use the prong for walks, You may not believe this, but when I took her for her first walk ever with me, she stayed by my side<u> _ON HER OWN!!_</u> I _*never*_ had to <u>make</u> her do it, she just did it and I was quite suprised to see her do it myself. I'm pretty sure it was because of her new surroundings, but now after almost three weeks, she still walks beside me. Sure I let her go sniff and play when we are out for a walk, after all she's a dog! That's what they do! I let her explore her world, I give her plenty of time to be a rambunctious puppy... Just not at 3:00 in the morning when it is raining or snowing, and she wants to roll around in the muck.

I was not trying to get anyone to agree with my method, and I was certainly not trying to get anyone upset. I was merely stating that the prong collar worked when she was too wound up to do the one thing I was trying to get her to do... pee. I give her lots of praise when she goes, and 95% of the time she goes without any trouble, does her thing, and heads for the door when she's done. Sometimes she wants to sniff a bit, so I give her a few minutes. For the times when she's being loopy, I put the collar on, and she settles down and we go out. Some may say that's because the dog is suffering some kind of mental trauma and is shutting down. I don't quite agree with that. Maybe the dog just accepts it for what it is... "Okay, no fooling around this time, I'll just pee and we'll go back in. He still loves me and we'll play later" 

Everyone says how smart these dogs are. Intelligence is more than learning to obey commands, it is also being able to discern _why_ a particular thing is happening, which is precisely _why_ they learn to obey commands... "I do _this_ when he says _that_, I get something good to eat and he pets me just where I like it!" Now I'm not saying that my dog is any smarter than anyone else's, or that she thinks like a human. And I am definitely no dog behavior expert, but if a dog learns to sit by receiving a treat after making the connection between a sound, a hand motion and their butt touching the floor, why is it so hard to believe that making the connection that the pinchy collar on their neck means "I have to be good this time"? Is it so impossible?

My actions may seem cruel to some, but what about crate training? Granted there are no metal prongs on their necks while crating, but when they cry and whine about being in there, everyone says "Oh, just ignore her. She'll settle down after a while. It has to be done to train her properly." To me, crating is worse than the prong collar... It seems too much like jail. Solitary confinement is what prison wardens do to the worst of society's offenders, but when it comes to dog training, people insist on it. I do crate training and it kills me to hear her cry, but I know the reasons why it is necessary.

I know that as far as the dog is concerned, they see the crate as their own safe haven, so the analogy is like comparing apples to oranges, but at least the dog does not cry when the collar goes on. Some of you say I'll hurt her feelings or cripple her development, I should just let her be a puppy and be as nutty as she wants, I am letting her be a nutty pup, just not at 3 a.m.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A crate does not provide a physical correction to a dog. It is not to be used as punishment, not ever. Every time I hear people say something about giving the dog a "time out" I wonder whether they are using the crate for punishment. 

I place crates of various sizes with no gates on them in the puppy yard while I am weaning my litters. I crate the puppies together to take them to the vet. I usually crate them with another pup at night once or twice before they go to their new homes. There is no carrying on. The crate is not like a jail. It is like a bed or a crib. It is for their own safety. 

When I am raising a pup for myself after eight weeks, I use a crate only on occasion because I have kennels where the pup is kept when I cannot watch it. The pup is crated en route to the vet and for meals, and for the night. This continues into adulthood. Not one of my dogs have the slightest hesitency about going in their crates. Why? Because it is not and never was abused. 

I think the prong collar is a great training tool. It provides control with very little or no fight from the dog. The owner is not fighting with the dog which would be negative to their leadership. However, why would ANYONE need such a tool to control an eleven week old puppy??? My old sick mother who needed a home health care nurse after her major surgery could manage Cujo at ten months without a prong collar. 

Some dogs really benefit from a prong, but a lot are used for dogs that really should never require it. Why? Because it is EASY, not because it is necessary. It amazes me that someone would resort to this type of collar with a puppy so young because it is EASY. Personally, I find it rather disgusting.


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

Very interesting. You say you don`t use any real correction when the prong is on. I`m wondering if just the mild sensation of the prongs is stimulating some kind of calming like a mother with a gentle mouth over the neck in an acupressure type response?
I`ve never though about the crate like that. I have never used a crate for punishment but I have let a pup cry it out and whine at times in the crate. Can you imagine the psychological damage I`ve done.
Paradox?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Not jumping on the _band wagon _- not _a sheep _at all







But I wanted to *add support *to those who have posted long and overall very correctly thought out posts about puppy rearing (I've only done maybe 35 dogs/puppies to start on crates/housebreaking) so not a "newbie follower" either. Just one who believes if enough people point out and are in agreement with something blatantly incorrect or potentially damaging to a dog, the originator should think longer and harder!

11 week old puppy is behaving NORMALLY. Too young to be corrected or popped at all. Too young for a prong. Housebreaking takes patience and attention to the pup and good timing - not physical corrections.

Lee


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Wolfstraum Too young to be corrected or popped at all. Too young for a prong. Housebreaking takes patience and attention to the pup and good timing - not physical corrections.
> Lee


Unless I missed it, I thought he said no pops. Like I also pointed out I wonder if the prong is have some kind of acupressure effect? I like to see him try it with out the leash and see the effect.

I`m curious and I don`t expect 100% honesty (this is after all the internet) How many that think this guy is a barbarian let a pup cry it out in their crates at times?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

My dogs are 9 and 12 now. They've slowed down a lot in the year they turned 9. Enjoy the PIA puppy antics when you have them. Every pup I've had, has wanted/needed to excersize/play/goof a bit before taking care of elimination. And to reenforce something others have said but put it a bit more broadly [not necessarily for the op but for others reading this thread] when your dog does something you want (in this case eliminate) then allow it to have some reward that it wants. When your pup has played & pooped then let it play some more before going in - if you have to go get your pup when it doesn't come when called, reward the pup for letting you get it instead of playing tag - perhaps with a short walk, perhaps with a play session - then go on to what you "need" to do (go inside, get ready for work, watch the game on TV.) 

I used to train with prongs. Never under 6 months old. [yes I have had challenging puppies] I no longer use prongs so I am not a prong advocate. BTW the biggest PIA puppy ever grew into the most wonderful out-in-public-anywhere dog. Today, she's still a wonderful dog but she's 12 and very gimpy. I am making my barn pilgrimage today. She will walk gimply with us down to the arena. I'll tether her & ride a bit. She will bark while I ride. We'll walk back up to the barn, the horse & I stopping to wait for my former speed demond to slowly catch up. All the while, I remember the days when she was incredibly swift, when she was a PIA puppy, when she could keep up with the horse non-stop for the longest trail rides. Enjoy the challenges the young dog presents. The old ones have different challenges for you. They have a lot to teach you.

Whatever tools you use with your pup, be open to learn from the dog.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Kutzro,

The comparison of crating a puppy for their own safety and putting a prong on them is like comparing putting a 6 month old baby in a crib or putting the baby on a bicycle. Apples and oranges. 

Sure, the puppy is getting acupressure from the prong just like putting an e-collar on her would be massaging. He is now running a puppy spa. Maybe I'll send my pup for his special "mud prong facial" sure to unclog pores and inhibit puppies. 

I don't think he's a barbarian, i just think he's using a compulsive training tool WAY too early. And yes, I have let a pup cry in a crate. 

Question asked, question answered, and answers received with indifference. He's the only one that will have to live with the ears back hesitant interaction that he will get from this pup moving forward - not us.


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

Please Mr Zues show me how a prong with no correction is worse then the people I see jerking pups around on a flat??
I`m not talking just crating, I`m talking letting a tiny pup wail in a crate and cry it out.
All my questions and observations are rhetorical. I `ve been doing this a couple years and have my own opinions. I just don`t drink the kool-aid.


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## Brimauster (Dec 9, 2007)

This will be my last reply to this whole issue... I'm sure some of you will be glad...

As I said in the first post, I only use the prong when she is <u>_*behaving like a loony *_</u>in the <u>_*wee hours of the morning*_</u> when I take her for a potty break - not a potty _playtime_, a potty _break_... Since *I* am the master, alpha dog, ruler or what-have-you, *I* say that *this is not the time* I want to be out in the rain while she rolls around in mud and pee and God-knows-what. 

Does this make sense to anyone? Do you see where I'm going with this??? Or would you suggest I stand out there and let her get thoroughly filthy, and me get thoroughly soaked just so she can be her natural puppy-self? What would you do in the same situation? Would you say "Awww- Isn't she so cute frolicking in the mud and pi$$ and $h!t..." No. I dont think so... You would more than likely bring the dog back inside and five minutes later be cleaning _another_ pile off the carpet. 

Let's be honest people, we are all human and have natural human emotions. And anger is the easiest to arise second only to laughter. The reason I _*RARELY*_ use the prong is because I _*DON'T*_ want to get mad or disgusted at my dog. I _*DON"T*_ pop it, pull it or yank it. I simply hold it tight to my chest (6' lead) and let her do all the pulling and popping. To herself. It literally takes seconds for her to get the message that goofing off is not allowed here and now. Does this clear things up yet? *<u>It is a behavior based usage, not a coercive force usage.</u>*

Puppies can be a royal pain in the butt, as we all know. We get mad or disgusted, but we love our dogs. We train them, pet them, give them treats... But *WE* are the bosses, and if we let them get the idea in their furry little heads that they can take advantage of us... well, we've all heard the stories of dominance and aggression, and some of you have even dealt with it personally.

As previously stated, I have only used the prong <u>three or four times,</u> <u>only in the wee hours,</u> <u>only for potty breaks,</u> and <u>only when she is being loony.</u> I have not had to use it for the past few days... I believe she understands that when I get out of bed, get dressed and we go out into the cold darkness, she is to pee or poop and we go back in and go back to sleep. No more craziness. Any other time she is allowed to be herself. I get a kick out of watching her be a goofball! Just not at that time of the morning.

I am not looking for validation,acceptance or agreement from anyone. I tried something different, it worked, and I posted it here. 

People, in general,see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. And if what they see and hear goes against their own ideals and morals, well then, it's human nature to try and persuade the other party over to their way of thinking. I don't recall asking for advice or guidance, I was simply trying to state what worked for me. Hate me? probably some of you do... disagree with my method? all of you do. 

But the fact remains that my dog loves me, and I love her. 'Nuff said.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

eleven weeks old, if you get mad and disgusted at a baby this young, you do not have any business owning a dog.

Put on a slicker with a hood, keep a bath towel at the dog to dry the puppy off with, problem solved. 

Stop food and water at seven PM. Take the pup out at eleven PM, one last time, and let it be a puppy. The pup should be fine until six or seven in the morning. 

If you crack the pup over the head with a two by four, she will probably stop being loopy. 

There are many roads to any destination.

Personally, I am not afraid of a puppy getting the better of me, so much so that I have to calm it down with a prong collar, and prove by doing so that I am the master.


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## Brimauster (Dec 9, 2007)

Sorry, I forgot something:



> Quote: He's the only one that will have to live with the ears back hesitant interaction that he will get from this pup moving forward


Do you honestly think that my pup will be scarred for life from using a prong collar _*four*_ times, for a whopping combined total of about 15 minutes? What the heck do you think I am? Some sort of monster who likes terrorizing puppies? 

I did a lot of research, contacted lots of breeders, talked to many, many GSD owners, some of whom are K-9 Police officers about all aspects of GSD training, health, etc,...People, people, people... Let's get real here! I used it _*FOUR F$^@*&G TIMES!!!*_I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. You're blowing things way out of proportion! OMG! I can't believe what I'm reading! Jeez... 

As of this final post, Mods, please cancel my account immediately.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

This is not a pack mentality respopnse. I could list the people that have provided helpful advice to me and I know in most cases they are more experienced with the GSD then I am. So I listen. Heck, you might even be one of them. 

P.S. Who is MRL


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:As of this final post, Mods, please cancel my account immediately.


Be unfortunate if you leave just cause some of us don't agree with you. I've been here for years, had many people disagree, yet had the sticking power to stay with the site. Help some people, and learn from others. 

BTW, there's another GSD site you may find more to your liking. Alot of K-9 handlers and people into protection over there. It's the forum at http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BrimausterBut WE are the bosses, and if we let them get the idea in their furry little heads that they can take advantage of us... well, we've all heard the stories of dominance and aggression, and some of you have even dealt with it personally.


Yikes! You are getting worried about a _ * baby * _ getting the better of you? I think that is over-reacting. 

Also from your earlier post:



> Originally Posted By: BrimausterI posted this for general information for those who might be thinking about it for their own dog.


And because many people do come on here for information, I think it is important to post a different view from yours, so that people can make educated decisions for themselves. Maybe putting a prong on a puppy for a total of four times is harmless, but without the posts following yours explaining that 11 weeks is WAY too young, other people may assume that "hey! Great Idea! Complete Puppy Control", and use it 24/7, not understanding why doing so would be considered abuse that will traumatize and damage their puppy's development.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Maggie, I know Leerburg well, and Ed is a good freind of my breeder. Furthermore, Ed has been very helpful to my son who has competitive labs. 

But Ed is more opinionated then everyone on this board combined, and if the guy corresponds with Leerburg he won't last a day.


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

Jeez, people that disagree with me sure don`t bother me or scare me away.









" I could list the people that have provided helpful advice to me and I know in most cases they are more experienced with the GSD then I am."

Ya sure? We`re so much cooler on line. We can all be master trainers and swimsuit models.


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> P.S. Who is MRL


Jenn please tell her who MRL is. OK, I`ll tell you. She is a moderator and one of about a dozen or so people I have met in person from the board. She`s the real deal.


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## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

I can't imagine having a GSD without a fenced yard...for starters...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wanna be a swimsuit model.

As the OP opted out, 

The guy came in, not asking advice but posting a long statement on how he uses a prong collar on an eleven week old pup. 

Then he gets several horrified responses, and others that were more specific about why it is a bad idea. 

He sticks around with the ever-present idea of his leaving.

He says he is a police officer, fine. But he doesn't know the first thng about raising puppies -- not a requirement of police officers, but then he says he has all these K-9 friends. Ok, so get advise from them. 

He hasn't moved a muscle away from his original position, save to say that he used the thing only four times and doesn't think that that will ruin the puppy. 

He has no clue about how experiences in weeks 3-16 can affect dogs. And clearly doesn't want to hear it. 

I think the guy IS for real. I think he truly likes the idea of dominating the young puppy. Let's hope for the puppy's sake that it is one with good nerves, and the other garbage about being such a great puppy parent is true. 

Did he ever mention the name of the pup, I missed it?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: Jenn please tell her who MRL is. OK, I`ll tell you. She is a moderator and one of about a dozen or so people I have met in person from the board. She`s the real deal.


MRL is ME!!!! And yes, I'm a swimsuit model, and the Queen of the Poconos, and almost always right (except when I'm not, and I hate it when that happens.........)


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

The pup's name is Riley. The member's name is Brian. 

And from the dozen posts Brian has made in just one week, it's clear to me that he really wants to do the right thing for Riley. He seems to have a good understanding of the kind of leadership that a strong-willed GSD needs--he has owned a GSD in the past. It's also clear from the posts that Brian is a smart guy. 

So, here's the deal, Brian. Be smart enough not to get your feelings hurt when people don't agree with you. This site exits, primarily, as a place for GSD owners to offer each other advice. You can take it for what it's worth. If the advice doesn't seem to work for you, ignore it. If, on the other hand, you seem to get a consensus from many experienced owners saying the same thing, then maybe they are on to something, and you could learn from it. But that's up to you. 

In the end, nobody cares, really, whether or not your feelings are hurt. We care about Riley, and our advice is offered in her best interest. Since we don't know you, nothing we say could possibly be personal. 

But we are not there at your house, and we can't make you do anything you don't believe is right. If you are confident that what you're doing is working, and that you've got it under control, then just ignore the advice. 

But it's counter-productive (to Riley) to throw in the towel to a great information resource like this after one week because you don't like the consensus on this post. There are hundreds of years of experience represented by owners here. I've yet to see a question posted that another member hasn't experienced in the past. So, if you're smart, you'll stick around. Take advantage of the wisdom of others--if something here doesn't work for you, so be it. But I guarantee that there's lots left to learn.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Brimauster,

I don't know if anyone has suggested these things that might help.

1. If you have a muddy yard, set up ONE potty place, get some sand or even pine wood shavings to coat the area to keep the mud at bay.

2. Teach your pup to go potty on command. This is really a helpful thing. If my pups asked to go out and all they wanted to do is play, I would give them the "go potty" a few times and if they ignored me I would scoop them up and start heading for the house. 9 times out fo 10 if the pup had to go I would end up with an arm full of wiggling puppy. I went to the potty place, set the pup down, gave the command and wal-la, they went potty, no playing around. With me picking them up and not letting them walk back to the house, I was demonstrating that I was in charge, I gave the pup the opportunity to go potty and I could take away all the fun and games also. If they did go potty, when they were done I would say good potty and give a treat. When I have young pups I am a walking treat machine, every coat, shirt, jacket and even jeans always have treats in them.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: kutzro357Please Mr Zues show me how a prong with no correction is worse then the people I see jerking pups around on a flat??
> I`m not talking just crating, I`m talking letting a tiny pup wail in a crate and cry it out.
> All my questions and observations are rhetorical. I `ve been doing this a couple years and have my own opinions. I just don`t drink the kool-aid.


I will agree with you there Kutzro. Yanking and cranking an 11 week old on a flat collar is not much better if it is at all. So is a list of other things that uninformed and in some cases abusive individuals do to dogs and puppies every day. You and I could sit down and put together a list a mile long of crap training and disciplining methodology. I would reply with the same response. I'm not just jumping on a bandwagon to agree with everyone. I could honestly not care less who agrees with me. I offered my own past mistakes and lessons to try and inform the OP as well as suggestions on what to do moving forward. Whatever.

As far as Leerburg, yes Ed is opinionated but he is right far more than wrong. I met him and toured the facility when I picked up my pup. He has been nothing but supportive of me and my SchH club and I have seen quite a few really nice dogs from his lines. MRL, this guy would get blown up there, and the trainers there work with the highest of drive and hardest dogs. They are not afraid to but a prong or dominant dog collar on a dog that needs it, but would smack this guy for putting a prong on an 11 week old.

Here is a fun one for you, how many K-9 handlers have ever raised a pup to be their PSD? I'll tell you, not many if any at all. Buying a puppy to be a PSD is not very wise, as you never know what you'll get until maturity so most K-9 handlers start with an older dog (18 months or older). IF a K-9 handler did do all the puppy drive building and PSD development I can guarantee you that they do not put a prong on an 11 week old! The very last thing you want a PSD prospect to be is inhibited.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

My back yard is unfenced, and the dog was trained by using boundry markers not to go beyond my yard and my neighbor's. My neighbor has a black lab, and they play almost daily. Without exception, at least one of us is outside with the dogs. I should mention I live on a river so there are no houses directly in back of me.

I realize many people share your point of view, but the back yard play has never been an issue.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: MRL, this guy would get blown up there, and the trainers there work with the highest of drive and hardest dogs. They are not afraid to but a prong or dominant dog collar on a dog that needs it, but would smack this guy for putting a prong on an 11 week old.


Maybe or maybe not. Point being there are less 'pet' people there and more 'serious' GSD owners there. So whether they support the original posters ideas, or not, it is another place to go to get some information from generally qualified people. 

All I ever ask from ANY of the postings I see is for everyone (and that's me too) to keep an open mind in the hope that we may learn something. Or at least be more receptive to the fact that I may always be able to learn, particularly if it's a benefit to my dog. So while I do like to be right







I try to also remember that my fighting to the death to be 'right' and not listen to new suggestions and methods may possibly not also allow me to grow as a dog owner and trainer to benefit my dog.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Agree with you 100% Timber. I did not have a fence at my old house with my first GSD Zeus. Not an issue since I don't ever leave a dog outside unattended anyway. It's called recall, and it's a lot of work and training. I used to wait until there were rabbits in the yard and then let him out. Once he was in full chase I would wait until he got to the property line and recall him. Obviously this exercise was for proofing and not training and he was over a year old at that point. My home was also on a culdesac without neighbors behind me. My current home is on a corner close to a semi busy street and I put up a fence the day I closed on the house.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Tracy, I am so glad you are on this board to help level things out and put the subject back into perspective! Hopefully the OP will see your post and come back here and learn more for the benefit of Riley...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

Luca_Stl, i like your posts. are you a trainer, breeder, etc.?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

there's alot of knowledge on this site. don't run from it because some of us don't agree with you. i'm new to this site and people haven't agreed with my ideas. i learned something from the difference in opinons, methods and the different ways of going about things. the people on this site are serious dog people and you want what they have to offer. everybody wants what's best for the dog. you're just one of the dogs training tools so learn how to use it.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what's a psd? thanks.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

> Quote: Luca_Stl, i like your posts. are you a trainer, breeder, etc.?


Thank you. No, I'm not a breeder or trainer, LOL, just a guy who loves dogs and has internet access!







I've had several dogs in my adult life, but Luca is my first GSD. He, and the others at this board with _much _ more knowledge and experience than me have taught me a lot of what I know--that, and the training classes and reading I've done, and lots of trial-and-error and practicing on my own two hooligans! 

As I said to the OP of his thread, you can really learn a lot by synthesizing the advice of the truly experienced folks here who have alrady make all the mistakes for you! That way, you can avoid the same pitfalls. Like the rest of you, I'm learning something new every day. 

Thanks again.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

here's a method i used for the collar training. our boy came home at 9 weeks. we bought a flat collar. we he was on his leash i never really tried to control him. we would walk slow and i would go in his direction. when i wanted his attention i would tap the leash with my middle finger and ring finger and i mean a gentle tap and call his name. we did this for weeks. then i started to tap the leash and hold him back a little and say heel. we did that for weeks. now he's six months and his head is right beside my knee. no yanking, no pulling and no loud voice. when we're in the woods i unleash him and he doesn't go far. when we come across other dogs i call him and he comes to me and i make sure the other persons dog is friendly. if so, he can play with them. when it's time to go i call him and we go merely along. when we're in the city there's so much good distractions. we he loses focus i just tap the leash and he'll either get closer to me or he'll look at me to see what i want. i say heel and he's there. this did'nt happen quickly. in my training routine we work on what ever the lesson is 4 or 5 times a day for 5 to 10 minutes at a time. i always end my training sessions on a positive note. at some point it locks in.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

are you still with us???????????


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## GSDgirlAL (Jan 4, 2008)

This is a very interesting topic ... 

I had a prong collar on my pup when she was 11 weeks old b/c we were already in a puppy class and per the trainer I needed to have that on her ... she was quite a handful at that age. But, I never really thought about if she was too young for it b/c the trainer suggested it so I just followed her advice. This was the same for my Golden Retriever as well, who is older than my GSD. 

I guess what I'm saying here is that ... I had a prong collar on mine all the time, with the exception of sleeping and when she was in her kennel. But, as others have said she is only 11 weeks old so she is going to act silly and act like a puppy.


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## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

I have never tried a prong collar. Does it prevent pulling better than a gentle leader? I have always used a gentle leader - I'm just curious.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

RavensMom, Personally it is my training collar of choice. I have tried several and for most owners the prong is the best tool to help you get your dog to stop pulling you down the street. 

I don't care for the gentle leaders as an instructor because it does not fit well on dogs without long noses, it takes a while for many dogs to accept it, the risk of neck/shoulder injury is too great if used incorrectly or in a moment of inattention when the dog charges off after a squirrel etc. and it is difficult to wean off of. Once on a gentle leader for pulling... most dogs will always be on a gentle leader to not pull. Some reason because of the collar and some because the owner. Not to mention the stigma of walking a dog with a "muzzle" on. Hard to make friends that way.

I prefer the prong. Easy to use. Easy to wean off of. "Power Steering". Risk of injury is much less (check out the study done between prongs and choke collars) I think the link was posted earlier in this thread...

Not every dog who comes to my class gets a prong (and for heavens sake not an 11 week old puppy!!) and only those who truely need it are fitted for one. 

If you have a heavy puller to the point of choking/gagging himself, try the prong. Make sure it is fitted correctly then just stand still and hold the leash in one place. When he is standing next to you, praise him in a calm/happy voice. If he starts to pull away shut your mouth/no speaking. Praise when loose. When standing nicely on loose lead, take a few steps. If he starts pulling (just before he gets out of position next to you - his rear is by your leg) stop .. no more forward motion. You can also click/treat the right position and feed. Praise in a happy tone of voice when he is doing the right thing. There are so many more useful ways to train him not to pull, not using the gentle leader... IMO.

Seems to me, once on the leader, always on the leader. There is another guy here in town that offers basic obed classes. His collar of choice is the GL. I can always spot his dogs because all dogs wear one (no option) and none of them are looking at their owner for where to go. They are walking as best they can trying to pull the owner while on a GL.







I just don't get it. Teach attention and no more pulling







Teach leash boundry and no more pulling









Oops... went off topic a little bit sorry. Just a pet peeve of mine. In short, 

Yes. I believe it does prevent pulling better than a gentle leader.


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> 
> Here is a fun one for you, how many K-9 handlers have ever raised a pup to be their PSD? I'll tell you, not many if any at all. Buying a puppy to be a PSD is not very wise, as you never know what you'll get until maturity so most K-9 handlers start with an older dog (18 months or older). IF a K-9 handler did do all the puppy drive building and PSD development I can guarantee you that they do not put a prong on an 11 week old! The very last thing you want a PSD prospect to be is inhibited.


I have known a few. One was a very good friend and one of the early K9 officers on Easton PD. There are a lot of reasons. These days it`s money. It`s cheaper to buy an older proven dog and then just train the dog and handler from that point then buy a pup work with it for 18 months and have it wash out only to start over and have lost a year and a half. Back in the late 60`s and 70`s I knew a number of handlers that raised their dogs.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RavensMomI have never tried a prong collar. Does it prevent pulling better than a gentle leader? I have always used a gentle leader - I'm just curious.


I've used both. My training collar of choice is the Sense-ation harness. It's a front clip harness and works great. http://www.softouchconcepts.com/products/sense_sation_harness.html


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: kutzro357
> It`s cheaper to buy an older proven dog and then just train the dog and handler from that point then buy a pup work with it for 18 months and have it wash out only to start over and have lost a year and a half. Back in the late 60`s and 70`s I knew a number of handlers that raised their dogs.


This is specifically what I was getting at. Today's K-9 handlers will not have much experience raising puppies unless they also participate in IPO/SchH and raise their personal dogs to compete (which some that I have met do). I would be willing to bet the farm on the fact that they would call anyone nuts that tried to put a prong on an 11 week old SchH or PSD prospect. Also, training methodology for bitework has changed DRASTICALLY over the last 40 years. Back then even foundation training was all done in defense and lots of compulsion was used for virtually everything. The top K-9 handlers in the world train for both sport and street, with the foundation work when the dog is a puppy done virtually the same way that SchH trainers raise their puppies. It's all about building confidence in a puppy and letting them develop into uninhibited confident dogs that are under control in their most excited/agitated state and happy to be there. Putting a prong on a puppy literally destroys their attitude in all except that hardest of the hard puppies.


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## deborahgym2 (Dec 14, 2007)

The definitely invested in a prong collar. It was the best thing I did. Before the prong I was seriously getting pulled down the street. Not only was it embarrassing because people thought I had no control but most importantly I was getting injured and my arm and shoulder was always in pain. 
I am very happy I bought it and use it everyday for his walks. I wouldn't leave home without it!


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## elfwofle (Dec 22, 2007)

When my GSD was about 8 months old she would pull me, and I was about 4 months pregnant too, so I got a Halti to control her and it worked like a charm. Now we have been off the Halti and on a martingale (no slip collar) for going on three months. 

With that being said, I dont agree with "once on a Gentle Leader (samething as a Halti) always on a Gentle Leader". It does take a little bit of work to get off of it, but then again, so does any kind of training. JMPO

I have used a prong collar on two dogs I have owned, but I would not put one on my GSD as I do not believe she is that bad. And the thought of putting one one her when she was 11 weeks old never crossed my mind; then again, she wasnt even on a leash till she was about 16 weeks as she would return when called, and I could catch her! And at the time I lived in a stairwell apartment building and had to cross the street to get to the grass, of course when a car was coming I would pick her up, but she would stay next to me all the time.


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## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

My dogs are 2 1/2 and 7 mos. The 7 mo. old is 70#. Is he too young for the prong? The gentle leader was suggested by my trainer (not all dogs in the class are on this - in fact, some are on the martingale), but she does not allow any type of choke collar in her class. I do agree about getting in the habit of using the gentle leader - I would like to get off of it since the dogs are not permitted to take their Canine Good Citizen test with one on anyway. It's just that I only weigh 110# myself and my dogs are 80# (adult) and the 70# baby is well on his way to 100# or more. Both have been in obedience classes but I need some extra help in order to walk them while continuing to train. Thanks!


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

In my opinion a 70 pound pup at 7 months is not too young for a prong provided it's fitted properly and primarily used so the pup "self corrects" for pulling. Meaning, fit the prong properly (as high on the neck as possible with a very snug fit) and clip your leash to both the "live" and "dead" rings. The live ring is the ring that sticks out a bit that most people attatch a leash to and the dead ring is the flat ring on the opposite side of the chain from the live ring. Then, do not administer corrections, just let the pup self correct if he pulls. Personally, I don't like and don't use halti's but that is just me.


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## deborahgym2 (Dec 14, 2007)

I had my GSD on a prong collar at exactly 7 months old. He was getting to be just too much. As long as it is fitted properly as the afore mentioned post says, your pup should be fine.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I waited until mine were over a year to use a prong. But seven months for a chronic puller isn't in my opinion too young, so long as the dog is relatively hard -- in no way soft, fearful, shy, very sensitive. 

But your argument for not wanting to use a halti works for the prong as well. You cannot use prong collars for the CGC or in any type of AKC obedience/rally events. 

I am not sold on your trainer. Good trainers are open to different training devices. However, she is probably right that your dog does not need it. Instead of a prong or a halti, why not try to walk for short distances with a treat in your hand. Give small pieces of the treat to the dog when it is in the right position and tell him Good Heel. It takes longer than fitting a prong collar and making a couple of corrections. But if you succeed than you end up with a well trained dog that you did not need to use a prong on. 

Only three of my eight dogs have ever had a prong on. I have used one a Dubya a couple of times, Jenna twice, Tori once or twice. The rest of them never needed a prong. Do they pull. Some of them do. Not always, but when I first get them out of the car, they need reminding. I prefer to use the method of control that provides the least amount of force for the most control for the least fighting. For Dubya that was the prong. For the others, the prong does not fit this bill. 

Good luck.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

When you say make sure it is fitted properly- how do you define that? I need to dust off my boxers prong. She is positive the puppy was santa's live chew toy to her. I think I have it too large?

It does work wonders. As soon as it is on Ava shapes right up.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I don't agree with every thing that is posted on the Leerburg site, but he has one of the best online instructions for fitting the prong collar.
http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

Shows how to fit, proper placement and live ring verses dead ring.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Michelle,

One thing to watch and be careful of when thinking about using a prong to control hard play between dogs is that some dogs can project the prong stimulation onto the other dog creating aggression, in other words the dog thinks the other dog is causing it. Even if that does not happen, the prong can "amp up" some dogs, especially harder more stubborn (sound like a boxer?) dogs. I am not saying that it happens all the time, but some times it does and if you resort to the prong on your boxer keep your eye out for this behavior.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quoteoster: doggiedad
> Subject: Re: Prong Collar
> 
> what's a psd? thanks.


Police Service Dog ?
http://leerburg.com/kevin1.htm


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

That was a good article. I definately had it too large.
Also I will make sure not to use it to correct rough housing. I thought if I refreshed Ava's training she would listen. If I put her service vest on she is a saint but then she is all work. I would like a happy medium between mauling the pup and totally ignoring him.
I ordered a dominence collar to go with my prong.
Thanks for the link. I bookmarked it for future references.


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