# GSD Herding Group Westminster Winner



## Shep's_Shepherd

For what it's worth, we've got a GSD that won the Herding Group at Westminster -- GCH Babheim's Captain Crunch
Best of luck at Best in Show!


----------



## Samba

WTG Crunch!


----------



## Emoore

Hooray! I like him, he's a nice looking dog.


----------



## carmspack

reminding you of Covy Tucker Hills Manhattan , also handled by Jimmy Moses  He is the only German Shepherd to win Best in Show in the history of the Westminster Kennel Club show held annually at Madison Square Gardens. Seventeen years later, that record still stands. Ch. Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan ROM


----------



## Shep's_Shepherd

carmspack said:


> reminding you of Covy Tucker Hills Manhattan , also handled by Jimmy Moses He is the only German Shepherd to win Best in Show in the history of the Westminster Kennel Club show held annually at Madison Square Gardens. Seventeen years later, that record still stands. Ch. Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan ROM


Based on the photo in your link, I can see why! Great looking GSD!


----------



## selzer

So when are they doing BIS?


----------



## selzer

How many days of this show? I see min pins on now, or is this just a repeat of earlier?


----------



## Shep's_Shepherd

selzer said:


> So when are they doing BIS?


Here's the schedule from their website: Dog Show TV Coverage - Schedules, Times, Dates & Listings - USA Network - WestminsterKennelClub.org 

*NIGHT 1:* 
Monday, February 13, 2012
Hound, Toy, Non-Sporting and Herding Groups
8-9 p.m. (ET) live on USA Network
9-11 p.m. (ET) live on CNBC 

*NIGHT 2:* 
Tuesday, February 14, 2012
Sporting, Working and Terrier Groups, Best In Show
8-11 p.m. (ET) live on USA Network 

Breed judging highlight videos are available throughout the day on Monday and Tuesday on the Westminster Web site. These highlights will be available after the show, as well. 

*To our West Coast viewers*: Please note that the West Coast telecast is delayed for your time zone. Since results are posted to our Web site as they occur live, if you want to enjoy the drama of the moment, please avoid the Westminster Web site after 5 p.m. Pacific Time on each evening. 

Schedule for Canada 

Animal Planet LIVE (online also)
Discovery World Thursday and Friday Feb 16 and 17 at 8p
Discovery Channel Saturday and Sunday Feb 18 and 19 at noon


----------



## selzer

Thanks.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Wait its on now?????

He is a good looking dog!


----------



## GSDGunner

Shep's_Shepherd said:


> For what it's worth, we've got a GSD that won the Herding Group at Westminster -- GCH Babheim's Captain Crunch
> Best of luck at Best in Show!


For what it's worth? 
It's worth a lot. It's great to see a GSD win. I know showlines aren't popular here, but I couldn't be more proud to see a GSD win the herding group.


----------



## Konotashi

Beautiful dog. 

Considering he did win in the herding group, can he herd at all? 

It's neat to see a GSD win, but if it just means they're the prettiest, then I don't think it's worth much if the only thing they can do is trot around the ring.


----------



## GSDGunner

Konotashi said:


> Beautiful dog.
> 
> Considering he did win in the herding group, can he herd at all?
> 
> It's neat to see a GSD win, but if it just means they're the prettiest, then I don't think it's worth much if the only thing they can do is trot around the ring.


Was there another group he should have won?  How many people here have GSD's that actually herd? I guess if he has Sch titles, it would be okay then. 
He beat out the other herding dogs (who I assume don't actually herd either) because he was (in the judges opinion) the best example of the standard. 
I'm sorry that you think it's worthless because he's pretty and only trots around a ring. Some of us showline owners are proud to see this dog represent the breed.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

GSDGunner said:


> For what it's worth?
> It's worth a lot. It's great to see a GSD win. I know showlines aren't popular here, but I couldn't be more proud to see a GSD win the herding group.


Me too.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

This am, at 8 EST they are repeating last nites show on USA Channel.

Tonight at 8 pm is the finale


----------



## cliffson1

Congratulations to CC, a very pretty dog. I see nothing wrong with being the best looking herding dog in the judges eyes. I think its a tribute to win at anything you attempt.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

My Doggie's Physical Therapist (wiz of paws) Mastiff just took breed,,GO DUALLY

And I see Martha Stewarts Chow also took Breed


----------



## PaddyD

JakodaCD OA said:


> My Doggie's Physical Therapist (wiz of paws) Mastiff just took breed,,GO DUALLY
> 
> And I see Martha Stewarts Chow also took Breed


Martha Stewarts Chow, how appropriate.


----------



## GSDGunner

PaddyD said:


> Martha Stewarts Chow, how appropriate.


:rofl: I wonder if he'll whip out a recipe and cook it from scratch.


----------



## Samba

I noticed Martha was madly texting ringside. GK didn't come out of group though.

Martha Stewart wins at Westminster with Carbon County chow chow - Morning Call

Also, I think is has been something like 25 years since Jimmy and "Hatter" won. Before my time in the breed.


----------



## LARHAGE

I liked the German Shepherd a lot, he has a very nice body was not too extreme in my opinion and his head was masculine, not too narrow, I thought he was a very nice moving dog as well, I sure as **** would be proud to own him!!!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I just watched the rerun of last nites show,,and I thought he moved like a dream,, Watch the slow motion replay's,,gorgeous movement... loved his head shot 

all you nay sayers, bah humbug


----------



## Warrior09

He is beautiful I'm glad he won the herding I didn't get to watch it last night hopefully I get to Watch tonights though. I hope the rottweiler gets the working or doberman


----------



## BlackthornGSD

This link should go to the GSD highlights vid of the breed class: 

German Shepherd Dog


----------



## gsdheeler

GCH Kenlyn's Isadora v Hicliff took BOS, I've seen she out at shows in the NE and she's a beautiful girl.....Way to go Larry....


----------



## GatorDog

GSDGunner said:


> Was there another group he should have won?  How many people here have GSD's that actually herd? I guess if he has Sch titles, it would be okay then.
> He beat out the other herding dogs (who I assume don't actually herd either) because he was (in the judges opinion) the best example of the standard.
> I'm sorry that you think it's worthless because he's pretty and only trots around a ring. Some of us showline owners are proud to see this dog represent the breed.


I think she was just saying that he'd be an even better representation if he has attained other titles in another aspect of showing, be it herding, Schutzhund, etc, that would reflect on what work they are bred for.


----------



## Wolfiesmom

carmspack said:


> reminding you of Covy Tucker Hills Manhattan , also handled by Jimmy Moses  He is the only German Shepherd to win Best in Show in the history of the Westminster Kennel Club show held annually at Madison Square Gardens. Seventeen years later, that record still stands. Ch. Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan ROM


This dog comes from the same lines as my dog Chief. Same great grandparents.


----------



## Xeph

GO CAPI!!!!

Love that dog. Great temperament. I've also seen Isadora. I talk to the Leggs whenever I can.

Also, the girl with the Beezer (Ibizan Hound) in the group is a friend of mine. She's not had that special for very long (she owns her now), and I'm very VERY happy for her!!

ETA: Really happy with the overall quality of GSDs exhibited this year


----------



## Konotashi

On another thread, a breeder that only puts conformation titles on their dogs, as well as health testing them out the wazoo, is considered a BYB, since the dogs aren't working in anything other than conformation. 
But since this dog is so beautiful and got an awesome conformation title, everyone praises?


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I don't know who your talking about, but I wouldn't consider someone who puts conformation titles and health tests their dogs as a BYB . 

There are ALOT of breeders who may only choose to do one thing over the other, some just get working titles and don't show in conformation, long as they do the appropriate health testing, that's the biggie in my book and are producing sound/balanced/healthy dogs, thats what is important to me.


----------



## RocketDog

Warrior09 said:


> He is beautiful I'm glad he won the herding I didn't get to watch it last night hopefully I get to Watch tonights though. I hope the rottweiler gets the working or doberman


Mmmm....I must admit, I love that short-haired black and tan. Did you see the Black and Tan Coonhound last night? *WOW*. :wub:


----------



## dogfaeries

Xeph said:


> GO CAPI!!!!
> 
> Love that dog. Great temperament. I've also seen Isadora. I talk to the Leggs whenever I can.
> 
> Also, the girl with the Beezer (Ibizan Hound) in the group is a friend of mine. She's not had that special for very long (she owns her now), and I'm very VERY happy for her!!
> 
> ETA: Really happy with the overall quality of GSDs exhibited this year



I LOVE Beezers - I'm a big fan of sighthounds. Congrats to your friend!


----------



## arycrest

GSDGunner said:


> Was there another group he should have won?  How many people here have GSD's that actually herd? I guess if he has Sch titles, it would be okay then.
> He beat out the other herding dogs (who I assume don't actually herd either) because he was (in the judges opinion) the best example of the standard.
> I'm sorry that you think it's worthless because he's pretty and only trots around a ring. Some of us showline owners are proud to see this dog represent the breed.


Thank you for saying it so well!!!


----------



## LARHAGE

Konotashi said:


> On another thread, a breeder that only puts conformation titles on their dogs, as well as health testing them out the wazoo, is considered a BYB, since the dogs aren't working in anything other than conformation.
> But since this dog is so beautiful and got an awesome conformation title, everyone praises?


 
This is an ASL dog, he is a conformation dog, whether anyone agrees with that is not the point of this thread, he is a show dog doing what he was bred to do for his breeders/owners, and doing it well, we can go round and round about the aesthetics of this, but this isn't the thread for it, this is about the German Shepherd representing our breed, winning the group at Westminster, the biggest dog show in America, I don't see the outrage of working dogs not earning conformation titles, lets not beat a dead horse again for the umpteenth time, can we just let people enjoy their type of dog for the love of God !!!!! I'm not an ASL fan, but I appreciate this dog and his accomplishments, I'd be proud as ****, I'm not a working line dog fancier, but again, I appreciate them and would be happy and proud for the owner of the top one in the country, lets just celebrate the German Shepherd as a breed for once, without constant criticism because it's not "our" particular choice or type. :crazy:


----------



## TMarie

LARHAGE said:


> This is an ASL dog, he is a conformation dog, whether anyone agrees with that is not the point of this thread, he is a show dog doing what he was bred to do for his breeders/owners, and doing it well, we can go round and round about the aesthetics of this, but this isn't the thread for it, this is about the German Shepherd representing our breed, winning the group at Westminster, the biggest dog show in America, I don't see the outrage of working dogs not earning conformation titles, lets not beat a dead horse again for the umpteenth time, can we just let people enjoy their type of dog for the love of God !!!!! I'm not an ASL fan, but I appreciate this dog and his accomplishments, I'd be proud as ****, I'm not a working line dog fancier, but again, I appreciate them and would be happy and proud for the owner of the top one in the country, lets just celebrate the German Shepherd as a breed for once, without constant criticism because it's not "our" particular choice or type. :crazy:



This^ Thank you!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

double this ^^


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I love his name. Captain Crunch! I love that cereal!!


----------



## Jessiewessie99

larhage said:


> this is an asl dog, he is a conformation dog, whether anyone agrees with that is not the point of this thread, he is a show dog doing what he was bred to do for his breeders/owners, and doing it well, we can go round and round about the aesthetics of this, but this isn't the thread for it, this is about the german shepherd representing our breed, winning the group at westminster, the biggest dog show in america, i don't see the outrage of working dogs not earning conformation titles, lets not beat a dead horse again for the umpteenth time, can we just let people enjoy their type of dog for the love of god !!!!! I'm not an asl fan, but i appreciate this dog and his accomplishments, i'd be proud as ****, i'm not a working line dog fancier, but again, i appreciate them and would be happy and proud for the owner of the top one in the country, lets just celebrate the german shepherd as a breed for once, without constant criticism because it's not "our" particular choice or type. :crazy:



like! Like!


----------



## dogfaeries

Thank you! ^

Trivia --> Capi's sire "Bailey" ( CH Kenlyn's Aries v Hicliff ) is my Carly's grandfather. 

Not that that has to do with anything. Just making conversation


----------



## Samba

I guess we could always ask for more, but there are pluses here. The Cap'n is sound and he presents as a nice animal for the public to see. His hocks don't twist. He doesn't spook. He has a handsome look. Good for GSDs that he makes a nice presentation in such publically watched venue.

Looking forward to watching soon!


----------



## GSDGunner

LARHAGE said:


> This is an ASL dog, he is a conformation dog, whether anyone agrees with that is not the point of this thread, he is a show dog doing what he was bred to do for his breeders/owners, and doing it well, we can go round and round about the aesthetics of this, but this isn't the thread for it, this is about the German Shepherd representing our breed, winning the group at Westminster, the biggest dog show in America, I don't see the outrage of working dogs not earning conformation titles, lets not beat a dead horse again for the umpteenth time, *can we just let people enjoy their type of dog for the love of God !!!!! * I'm not an ASL fan, but I appreciate this dog and his accomplishments, I'd be proud as ****, I'm not a working line dog fancier, but again, I appreciate them and would be happy and proud for the owner of the top one in the country, lets just celebrate the German Shepherd as a breed for once, without constant criticism because it's not "our" particular choice or type. :crazy:


:thumbup: That's an awesome post. The bolded part says it all for me. If you don't like this line of dog, don't watch the show. Simple as that.


----------



## GSDGunner

Konotashi said:


> On another thread, a breeder that only puts conformation titles on their dogs, as well as health testing them out the wazoo, is considered a BYB, since the dogs aren't working in anything other than conformation.
> But since this dog is so beautiful and got an awesome conformation title, everyone praises?


Got a link to that thread? I'd like to see where a breeder who titles their dogs and does health checks is labeled a BYB. Cause that's just BS!


----------



## Konotashi

^^Kerstone shepherds.


----------



## GSDGunner

Konotashi said:


> ^^Kerstone shepherds.


I didn't see anyone calling them BYB's. That sounds like your assessment. Just because someone may not like a particular breeder, doesn't mean they're calling them a BYB. 
I saw more respectable people calling them anything but.

So in your eyes, any breeder who does conformation titles and health tests is just a BYB?


----------



## Xeph

Absolutely fabulous post, Larhage. Truly 

I'm going to have dogs of all three lines in this house shortly. I love them all, and do various things with them.

I LOVE seeing Capi at shows, and hanging out with him. He's a charismatic, sweet, showy, patient, FUN LOVING dog! I love his temperament, his moderation, his breed type, etc.


----------



## PaddyD

Xeph said:


> Absolutely fabulous post, Larhage. Truly
> 
> I'm going to have dogs of all three lines in this house shortly. I love them all, and do various things with them.
> 
> I LOVE seeing Capi at shows, and hanging out with him. He's a charismatic, sweet, showy, patient, FUN LOVING dog! I love his temperament, his moderation, his breed type, etc.


Nuff said.


----------



## gsdheeler

:toasting::toasting: LARHAGE


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Come on Cappy bring home best in show for the GSD. I stepped away from the terrriers for a minute.


----------



## dogfaeries

I swear, if the Peke wins, I'm going to be sorely disappointed. Grrrrr.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Just got home and just in time for best in show. I've got my money on the GSD... hope he takes the title.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

dogfaeries said:


> I swear, if the Peke wins, I'm going to be sorely disappointed. Grrrrr.


Sure your right. It was cool last year w/ Hickory winning and I think a GSD in the ring for Best in Show. Hopefully Cappy takes it all. The Dobe is going to be tough to beat.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Sorry if i offend anyone that owns the breed, but that pekingese has to be the funniest looking dog i've ever seen. I laugh every time they show that little fur thing.


----------



## dogfaeries

I do love the Dobe! But I'm going to have to go with Team Capi.


----------



## Samba

I am not sure how to judge Cindy's skirt!


----------



## onyx'girl

Dobe is a BOH....my pick!
I agree about the peke
Paul....and it just frikin won??


----------



## dogfaeries

Ugh


----------



## Samba

The Peke!!


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Seriously????


----------



## Lucy Dog

The pekingese for the win... that little fur thing!!! Give me a break. The GSD or the Dobe deserved that one.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

OK I m disapointed if it wasnt going to be Capi then i was hoping the Dobe as it was a breeder owner handler and the dog was gorgeous . Oh well there's a lways next year.


----------



## gsdheeler

Out of all the dogs in BIS that were beautiful to watch move. the Peke won......:headbang: UGH!!!!


----------



## Lucy Dog

How do you even judge that dog?? All you see is tongue and eyes surrounded by a giant fluffy wig. :thinking:


----------



## RocketDog

Grrr....spoilers!!  

Awww shucks. I'm sorry, I know they're still dogs, but I can't help feeling they're kinda _not dogs. _:ducksandruns: 

I mean.....I know, I know....and I like little dogs that are treated and act like dogs.....but. BUT!


----------



## Josh's mom

Well that was a surprise..... both Capi and the Dobe looked fantastic when they were moving, the Peke looked like it was going to pass out.

My aunt had a Peke when I was a kid, the thing I remember about him was one time his eye fell out, ......way gross.


----------



## OriginalWacky

Man oh man... if not Capi, I was hoping for the Dobe or the Dal. I love individual small dogs, but as a whole, I'm not overly fond of them. Well, I guess it was fun to hope anyway.


----------



## wolfstraum

I only watched half the video - I still see extreme....cowhocks on almost every dog, long spread feet, long pasterns...stifles way long....and these are not extreme??? And the type is being moved toward the international standard? I am not try to knock or rain on anyone's parade - watched the video and this is what I see very easily....having had horses most of my life, these are the same things horsemen look at to determine if the horse is sound and a good candidate to stay sound with use...

Lee


----------



## Xeph

What a freaking letdown


----------



## gsdheeler

I've always called Pekes "Slipper dogs" You know like those big fat fake fur slippers K mart sells around Xmas time.


----------



## OriginalWacky

gsdheeler said:


> I've always called Pekes "Slipper dogs" You know like those big fat fake fur slippers K mart sells around Xmas time.


Hahahah. We call them "kick me" dogs, although we'd never REALLY kick a dog. Not on purpose anyway. But like I said, I do love me some small dogs on person. I just wasn't so impressed with that Peke.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Anyone else notice the two wacko PETA women try rushing the stage as they just started to do the best in show part? Security stopped them right before they got to where the dogs were and the crowd started booing?


----------



## OriginalWacky

Lucy Dog said:


> Anyone else notice the two wacko PETA women try rushing the stage as they just started to do the best in show part? Security stopped them right before they got to where the dogs were and the crowd started booing?


Yeah, we rewound that and looked again, they kept them away pretty well. PETA idiots.


----------



## gsdheeler

Yep, I saw that, just wasn't sure what happened.


----------



## Lucy Dog

OriginalWacky said:


> Yeah, we rewound that and looked again, they kept them away pretty well. PETA idiots.


Yeah... I had it recording, so i went back too. Hope those idiots enjoy jail tonight.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I didn't see I was in the shower.

Why do they feel the need to be idiots?


----------



## Shep's_Shepherd

GSDGunner said:


> For what it's worth?
> It's worth a lot. It's great to see a GSD win. I know showlines aren't popular here, but I couldn't be more proud to see a GSD win the herding group.


@GSDDunner -- I was just attempting to bring attention to the Herding Group results and worded "for what it's worth" to address those individuals interested in the results. To those that didn't think it was "worth much" and didn't find the threat of interest, then they can feel free to skip it and move on to the next posts. I'm a proud owner of a WGSL GSD and appreciate the level of effort by all dog owners to achieve a showing at Westminster. I was hoping to down play my exuberance for the GSD Show win in order to avoid any ASL bashing or another SL vs WL thread. Unfortunately, that proved unsuccessful.


----------



## Shep's_Shepherd

dogfaeries said:


> I swear, if the Peke wins, I'm going to be sorely disappointed. Grrrrr.


Being a newbie at these competitions, I find it difficult to understand how anyone can compare a toy breed like the Peke to breeds like the GSD or Dobi. There's such a difference between the groups/breeds. It almost seems like the Peke has more in common with a cat than it does with the larger breed dogs. They might as well be comparing different species. I don't mean to disrespect the toy breeds, just saying they're so different that making any comparison seems impractical. . I just think the GSD and Dobies were the dogs to beat and was shocked by end result. Oh well, to each his/her own I guess.


----------



## Andaka

I would have given it to the Dalmation.


----------



## Xeph

The dogs are not being compared to one another. They're being judged against their standard. This judge apparently thought the Peke most closely represented perfection as compared to the Peke standard.

I strongly disagree with her choice, but it was her choice to make.


----------



## OriginalWacky

Shep's_Shepherd said:


> Being a newbie at these competitions, I find it difficult to understand how anyone can compare a toy breed like the Peke to breeds like the GSD or Dobi. There's such a difference between the groups/breeds. It almost seems like the Peke has more in common with a cat than it does with the larger breed dogs. They might as well be comparing different species. I don't mean to disrespect the toy breeds, just saying they're so different that making any comparison seems impractical. . I just think the GSD and Dobies were the dogs to beat and was shocked by end result. Oh well, to each his/her own I guess.


Well they are judging them against their own breed standards, not so much against each other. It comes down to who the judge thinks is closest to "a perfect specimen of X breed". 

Just because _I_ happen to think that it's a mop with a face... :wild:


----------



## katieliz

the dobe got robbed. and there were, at a minimum, four better dogs than the peke in the ring. dog shows are so often disappointingly political.

the shepherd is a nice dog, it's good to know he's got a sound temperment, and i always love to see the breed represented at the top, but he's not a "take your breath away" mover, and doesn't have the "presence" that hatter had. for a shepherd to go best in show at an all breed show, especially the w, they just about have to be spectacular. aren't many (any?) of those left.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

The GSD had terrible movement and nearly slipped at one point, his back legs twists inward, at least he had a masculine head. I suppose he fits the ASL standard though, judging from that sad gait 


I know nothing of peke standard but apparently that peke has what it takes, though it could barely make it around a ring..

The dobe is picture perfect of the breed standard, I was really rooting for her. I agree with the person that says she was robbed.


----------



## LARHAGE

That Peke was hideous , it looks like a freaking tarantula , you couldnt give me one of those , and it couldn't possibly have been a better breed representative than ANY of the others, I personally thought the Irish Setter was spectacular, beautiful dog, so was the Dobe and of course the GSD. I even liked the Kerry Blue and the Dachshund, but of course the ugliest dog on 4 legs wins it, politics at its best again.


----------



## RocketDog

I must say, I was rather shocked at the form/gait of the GSD's back legs. Even my kids and DH noticed the left leg. 

And yah... The Peke. It had very good focus for a dog that has to look up so far but STILL...........


----------



## katieliz

wouldn't say the shepherd is a "terrible" mover, fair amount of wasted effort tho. flashy side gait, decent reach and drive. didn't see coming and going from the right angle to assess...but he lacks the iron back, the suspension, and the transmission that would make him a spectacular representative of the breed. and yes, he's a bit loose and what we used to call "spongy" back in the day.

got a kick out of the owner of the peke saying they saved up "all his energy" that day for his time in the ring. i mean, all his energy???? there is no way that the best dog won. no way.


----------



## TankGrrl66

I was speechless that that ugly THING won best i show. That wasn't even a dog. That peke looked like what I empty out of my vacuum after cleaning my house (after 3 GSDs). I'm serious! A blob of hair that is a dust color that just might be alive :crazy:

That doberman took my breath away. She was like a living statue...just beautiful to watch, seemingly sculpted from the very idea of grace and perfection. Seeing her made me want a doberman all over again. So elegant!

The GSD was nice. I am not a show line fan, but I have seen worse. He did seem squishy in his feet though. At least he looked masculine, and his color was good. Some of the MALE dogs he competed against for BOB looked very feminine. One in particular looked perfect...for a female.

Something fishy about this win for sure. Pekes seem to be a fav of best in show judges. Some sort of pay out had to have occurred. 

Seeing that thing win really pissed me off. That was some bull right there.


----------



## PaddyD

OriginalWacky said:


> Well they are judging them against their own breed standards, not so much against each other. It comes down to who the judge thinks is closest to "a perfect specimen of X breed".
> 
> Just because _I_ happen to think that it's a mop with a face... :wild:


The judge must have thought it was a close-to-perfect hairball with teeth.
It had no redeeming qualities whatsoever, which makes it a perfect Peke.
With apologies to Peke owners, of course .....


----------



## Cheerful1

Can't believe the Peke won. No offense to their owners, but how did that happen?

I DVR'd the show and haven't seen it yet. Looking forward to seeing the different breeds. Happy that the GSD took his group.

Over the last 2 days I was fortunate to be outside the Hotel Pennsylvania while waiting to taxi to work. I saw some nice dogs: Irish Wolfhound, Scottish Deerhound, St. Bernard, Saluki, Akita, etc. Wish I could have seen a GSD, but I go home to my winner every night!


----------



## LaRen616

That Dalmatian was stunning! :wub:

I think the Doberman should have won though, gorgeous dog.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

yep very disappointing,, I thought the dobie was stunning and so was the Irish setter. The dobie really got robbed..


----------



## GatorDog

After the dog show ended, I went on Facebook and saw this video posted. It was actually shared by a well known breeder that I am friends with on Facebook, and it really opened my eyes to what is happening to some of the dog breeds, like the Peke, due to extreme breeding. Not sure if it's been posted here before, but I figured I'd share. (hopefully the link works..I'm on my phone so im not really sure how to do it)


----------



## GSDBESTK9

Great Video! Thanks for posting it GatorDog.


----------



## AgileGSD

Nice propaganda video but I think they need to be a bit more research. 

The "exaggerated coat" on the Komodor is just a dog who's been corded longer. They all look like the old Komodor at some point in the process. It takes years for the cords to grow as long as the show dog pictured.

And Shelties have a hard time cleaning themselves? Are they confusing long haired dogs with long haired cats?

What's with flashing the health issues of the dogs, too fast to read them? Are they implying all of these health issues are related to the breeds changing? Then there is an implication that the show dogs will all be unhealthy and the others will be healthy. 

As to striving for all dogs to be "natural shapes". They'd all look like this:










And "straight backed GSD"...


----------



## meldleistikow

I liked the video and agreed with most of it. I think that there are many breeds out there that are becoming way too extreme. The fact that a French Bulldog often cannot even breed on its own and then often has to have a c-section to have it's pups, is just ridiculous.

I thought the doberman should have won. It was beautiful!


----------



## GatorDog

AgileGSD said:


> Nice propaganda video but I think they need to be a bit more research.
> 
> The "exaggerated coat" on the Komodor is just a dog who's been corded longer. They all look like the old Komodor at some point in the process. It takes years for the cords to grow as long as the show dog pictured.
> 
> And Shelties have a hard time cleaning themselves? Are they confusing long haired dogs with long haired cats?
> 
> What's with flashing the health issues of the dogs, too fast to read them? Are they implying all of these health issues are related to the breeds changing? Then there is an implication that the show dogs will all be unhealthy and the others will be healthy.
> 
> As to striving for all dogs to be "natural shapes". They'd all look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And "straight backed GSD"...


Well personally, I also think that the coat of the show Komodor is ridiculous and exaggerated. As are many of the other show dogs that were listed such as the Old English Sheepdog and the Sheltie. I have seen a ridiculous amount of health issues with these dogs because of the way their coats are too often neglected and become matted. Even the dogs that aren't show quality have seen the effects of a genetically exaggerated coat.

And you have to admit that dogs like the English Bulldog and Neopolitan Mastiff have numerous health problems due to the extreme folding in the skin. Even the Neo shown in Westminster had multiple visible lesions on his face.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

katieliz said:


> wouldn't say the shepherd is a "terrible" mover, fair amount of wasted effort tho. flashy side gait, decent reach and drive. didn't see coming and going from the right angle to assess...but he lacks the iron back, the suspension, and the transmission that would make him a spectacular representative of the breed. and yes, he's a bit loose and what we used to call "spongy" back in the day.
> 
> got a kick out of the owner of the peke saying they saved up "all his energy" that day for his time in the ring. i mean, all his energy???? there is no way that the best dog won. no way.


Ok he wasn't too terrible, I even mentioned on the dobe forum that he moved better than most GSDs I usually see, but he was still pretty bad. The peke energy comment is hysterical. 

Personally I was impressed with that 9 year old Finnish Spitz, how endearing


----------



## GatorDog

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Ok he wasn't too terrible, I even mentioned on the dobe forum that he moved better than most GSDs I usually see, but he was still pretty bad. The peke energy comment is hysterical.
> 
> Personally I was impressed with that 9 year old Finnish Spitz, how endearing


I also didn't think he moved that well..but im no expert. It just seemed like when he was just walking and not full out gaiting, his back legs were totally floppy and loose looking. I loved his coloring though. All together, a handsome dog. I wish he beat that mop..


----------



## Xeph

Matted coats are the fault of lazy owners that don't groom properly. I've seen terribly matted Collies and Shelties that are from not so great breeders, because people can't pick up a freaking brush.


----------



## Andaka

I have seen the dog in peerson and had my hands on him. He is a nice dog that could perhaps use some conditioning. Also, it isn't fair to condemn his structure and movement based on TV coverage where the camera may not have been in the best place. Having shown a dog at Westminster, I can tell you that the ring is long and narrow, and the turns can get tricky at speed.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

To be fair, they showed him at multiple angles and also showed him up close and in slow motion as he moved. There was definitely some issues with his back legs.


----------



## crackem

I don't know, it takes much, much more than a slow trot next to a handler on a tight leash for a few meters down and back to tell me a dog moves well. I want to see straight ahead, starts, stops, change of direction, jumps terrain, etc. Then I could say a dog has good movement. a few meter trot in a ring??


----------



## katieliz

details and degree can always be debated, but there's absolutely no doubt that inbreeding for type, and breeding to create the exaggerations on a "winning" type, and the whole issue of the winning "stud du-jour", have created catastrophic health problems in many, many breeds.


----------



## DunRingill

The GSD looked very nice standing still, and this handler always presents his dogs extremely well and they are perfectly groomed. But when he started moving.....ugh. Too much up and down movement overall.......head bobbing when he was trying to speed up.....and back feet kicking up high. Yes I've been on that carpet and it's not the best surface for moving a dog, but compare the movement in the topline of the GSD to the absolute PERFECT stillness of the topline of the dobe. You could have set a glass of water on that dobe's back and she wouldn't have spilled a drop. And that's my opinion which isn't worth much


----------



## katieliz

"movement" for a shepherd in conformation judging does not take into consideration starts, stops, change of direction, jumps or terrain.


----------



## DunRingill

katieliz said:


> "movement" for a shepherd in conformation judging does not take into consideration starts, stops, change of direction, jumps or terrain.


Is that taken into consideration for ANY breed? no.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

katieliz said:


> "movement" for a shepherd in conformation judging does not take into consideration starts, stops, change of direction, jumps or terrain.


Exactly, and it's not realistic for any breed judging ring. All it took for my dobe's breeder to tell me if he was a sound mover and could cut it in the ring was to have me gait him up and down a walkway. 

Now as far as terrain jumping goes and all of that, I think performance sports would dictate the agility of a dog and what its capable of. Conformation just dictates that a dog is built properly or not.


----------



## crackem

katieliz said:


> "movement" for a shepherd in conformation judging does not take into consideration starts, stops, change of direction, jumps or terrain.


 That's kind of my point, or should I say exactly my point.


----------



## katieliz

and there's something goin' on with so many asl shepherds in the ring, a "hitch" in their drive movement in the croup area during follow through. alot has been sacrificed in the quest for that flashy side gait.

also read on the huffpo that the peke's handler said he "carried him a short way onto the green carpet for the final lineup, shortening the long walk of the ring." he also was quoted as saying, "there's alot of dog in a small package". imho that shoulda read, "there's alot of politics in a big dog show". always has been, always will be. that was pretty blatent tho.


----------



## LARHAGE

LOL. they said the Peke likes to chase squirrels and birds!!! LOL!!! the squirrels must give him a 20 minute head start.


----------



## Lucy Dog

LARHAGE said:


> LOL. they said the Peke likes to chase squirrels and birds!!! LOL!!! the squirrels must give him a 20 minute head start.


HA! I'm surprised it's not the other way around and the squirrels and birds are chasing him.


----------



## katieliz

just to clarify...my post about starts, stops, jumps, terrain, etc.,...was in response to a prior poster who said they'd have to see those things before they could make a judgement on the correctness of a dog's movement. i was trying to clarify that none of this is taken into consideration in the conformation ring. sorry if i was unclear.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

LARHAGE said:


> LOL. they said the Peke likes to chase squirrels and birds!!! LOL!!! the squirrels must give him a 20 minute head start.


What?? When they're on tv I assume?


----------



## katieliz

@crackem...re your point exactly, there's a venue for the judging of all that, just not in the conformation ring.


----------



## carmspack

German shepherds are difficult to show indoors in small rings . Most specialty shows are outside or have an entire arena to themselves. You need to get into motion and have space to reach out and sustain it.


----------



## crackem

katieliz said:


> @crackem...re your point exactly, there's a venue for the judging of all that, just not in the conformation ring.


again, my point exactly. How can anyone make a judgement about the "movement"

anyway, I should just drop it. These things make zero sense to me. For the life of me, I'll never understand how a dog that can't walk from it's fricking crate to the show ring and then procedes to wobble like a weeble and probably needs oxygen off "stage" to get it's O2 levels back to normal, can be deemed "best in show" or win any type of award at all. The entire process behind glorifing such unpractical garbage just baffles me.

Sorry, if some of my words offend those that show dogs. I get the theory, but when the highest level of achievement of a chosen venue, puts on display and awards stuff like this? I really gotta question the validity and practicality of the matter.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

The Japanese chin also looked like it was having the worst time trying to breathe when simply standing still to be examined. I nearly choked on my chocolate covered strawberries when the announcer was talking about the regalness of the breed.


----------



## AgileGSD

GatorDog said:


> Well personally, I also think that the coat of the show Komodor is ridiculous and exaggerated.


 You can think what you'd like but what you see as exaggeration in that breed has nothing to do with breeding for extremes. Their coats are no different now than they were in the "old Komondor" picture the video used.



GatorDog said:


> As are many of the other show dogs that were listed such as the Old English Sheepdog and the Sheltie. I have seen a ridiculous amount of health issues with these dogs because of the way their coats are too often neglected and become matted. Even the dogs that aren't show quality have seen the effects of a genetically exaggerated coat.
> .


 There are ways around having a matted long haired dog. Regular brushing, regular trips to the groomer or keeping the dog clipped short are all pretty common.


----------



## GatorDog

AgileGSD said:


> You can think what you'd like but what you see as exaggeration in that breed has nothing to do with breeding for extremes. Their coats are no different now than they were in the "old Komondor" picture the video used.
> 
> There are ways around having a matted long haired dog. Regular brushing, regular trips to the groomer or keeping the dog clipped short are all pretty common.


And you can think what you'd like but IMO, a corded coat of that length is totally unnecessary. The cords in the "old picture" were much shorter than the show Komodor's.


----------



## katieliz

@crackem...because they're only judging one specific "movement", which you might be interpreting literally, i.e., the "herding" trot.

ohmygosh, i SO agree with you tho about all the rest of it, i always try to be kind and remember that somebody owns and loves a dog...but that dog...to win w...you know, forgive me if this is crass, but it's almost shameful.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Not to defend the Peke but there is the time factor w/ the show and with that also the peke took about 5 steps to the GSD and Dobies one. When i go to a dog show I watch individual breed and some times group but i dont stick around for BIS as I dont understand enough about individual breed standards to get how they picked the Peke.


----------



## lorihd

was that a dog or donald trumps hair piece? i thought the doberman should have won. the back end of the shepherd didnt look right to me, jmo


----------



## katieliz

imho, re ring size; often a smaller ring can make a faulty gait more obvious. a correctly, beautifully moving, asl shepherd is correct and sound appearing at any speed in any size ring. the racetrack mentality evolved along with the emphasis on a flashy side gait. not to say a larger ring is not a good thing, especially with a larger entry, and if flooring is slick slips can occur, but a beautiful and correct floating trot does not depend upon the size of the ring and correct is correct at any speed. imho (and i'm only speaking of asl shepherds, i know nothing about other lines).


----------



## Samba

While much can be observed at all speeds, and I know judges who insist on a walk at times for this reason, a dog on a loose lead that has hit its rythm in the trot can reveal what is not seen otherwise.

I think you will find GSDs have long been judged in a big ring and the ASL specialty did not invent it.


----------



## katieliz

i've found it to be just the opposite, small rings have been the bane of shepherd exhibitors forever, especially at all breed shows. but a majority of my ringside experience comes from the 50's thru the 90's...the only first hand experience i have now is the national, and of course the national always has a large ring and now the white background, which makes faulty movement even more obvious. you lost me there samba about what the asl specialty did not invent. ???


----------



## Xeph

> you lost me there samba about what the asl specialty did not invent. ???


She means the Germans have used huge rings for a very long time


----------



## AgileGSD

GatorDog said:


> And you can think what you'd like but IMO, a corded coat of that length is totally unnecessary. The cords in the "old picture" were much shorter than the show Komodor's.


 You may not understand that the dog in the "old picture" will eventually also have cords as long as the dog in the "show picture", unless of course the dog is shaved or trimmed. That is true of all corded breeds. The cords will get longer and longer over time. The dog in the show picture that you find "extreme" has probably been corded for 4-6 years. 

Show Komondor's at various stages of cording:


----------



## vom Eisenherz

For the record, a well-bred Peke is just as able to walk as any other breed. They can even breathe. I have had 2, from 2 of the best show breeders in the country. My male was sired by the top winning Peke at the time. The issue is the handlers, not the dogs. They are so in the HABIT of carrying them so they don't get dirty that people think they can't walk. They can walk fine; they have an adorable "rolling" gait and the cutest run/hop ever. But that coat is no small feat to keep in shape, hence the carrying and other silly luxuries. It's really about human convenience rather than a problem with the dogs. Like any other breed, when you have poor breeding practices, you have health problems. I had zero health problems with either of mine. Healthy, happy, hardy little dogs. Of course, I applied some of my GSD principles to finding Peke breeders I liked, so that helped some, I'm sure. I weeded out a lot right off the bat. 

The woman I got my white one from is a big complainer about how they don't make them walk. By not making them walk, they are feeding into this false stereotype. Now, they do have very short legs, so they are taking a ton of steps for every one big dog or human step. They are not really even that slow; it's more of an image than an actuality. They are absolutely dogs; they are stubborn and actually a lot of fun and not pushovers at all.


----------



## carmspack

Love this site . check it out , see what new concept of "purebred" breeds looked like at the turn of the century - 19th. Dog Breed Historical Pictures pictures by Pietoro - Photobucket

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## RocketDog

carmspack said:


> Love this site . check it out , see what new concept of "purebred" breeds looked like at the turn of the century - 19th. Dog Breed Historical Pictures pictures by Pietoro - Photobucket
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Wow, the Irish Setter and the Great Dane pic are quite different! I can't get the side bar to work to scroll for GSD's but it's a great site!


----------



## VaBeachFamily

I know it's late, but I think Covy Tucker Hills Manhattan is awesome. I like that he is the ONLY GS to win BIS at Westminster, yet he's not the overly angulated typical AKC show shepherd. I think people should show dogs like this much more often and show AKC that they shouldn't look like they are almost sitting to win a show!


----------



## Andaka

But it is sometimes what the judges put up, not the only dogs that are shown.

Ch Tag CDnRAE2 winning an Award of Merit in 2005.


----------



## Samba

We have a bitch who has an extreme sidegait. There is absolutely no hitch in the rear that was sacrificed to that sidegait nor physically would there be any reason to. Capi looks a bit locked in the hocks. It is not terrible but he does not follow through completely and the result is the slight kick up in the rear. I watched his back again and saw no significant defect. He is heavier than I would show for weight, but that is the all breed ring style more. I did not see faulty up and down movement. My dogs who suspend, both show and working line, will move up and down at slower speeds due to their dramatic moments of suspension. It lines out once that suspension is moving at a faster speed forward in a quicker trot.


----------

