# Four month female out of control



## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

Gypsy just had her 4 month birthday and despite near constant attention and training, she is completely out of control. For example, out of the blue she decided to jump onto the bed on pee. (She is potty trained, so this was a surprise.) She is destructive as well. And despite numerous reprimands, she continues to want to bite. (My arms are in shreds from puppy teeth. I've taken to doing physically grabbing her by the scruff of the neck and pinning her to the floor when she bites. This correction lasts about 15 seconds and she's right back doing it again. It's like trying to tame a mountain lion. The odd part is that is actually learns commands easily. She just decides that she doesn't want to behave and goes into the "I'm going rogue. Try and stop me" mode.

I've tried to tire her out. I run her nearly two miles every morning and that used to be good for a few hours of peace. But now that just fires her up.

This is not my first shepherd by any means. And I've had a wolf hybrid. But Gypsy is a whole order of magnitude more of trouble than her predecessors. A shock collar is starting to look really attractive about now. This is the most headstrong dog I've ever come across. I'm open to suggestions.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Is she crate trained? When she gets really amped up, I’d crate her. She’s probably overtired. Are you working on teaching her to be calm? That’s just as important as tiring her out with exercise. Also, a puppy as young as yours should not be run for 2 miles. Free running and playing is fine, but the forced pace and repetitive motion of a longer run are terrible for growing puppies.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I would also immediately stop pinning her when she bites. That is not going to get you anywhere, and she will stop trusting you. It will only damage the relationship. Instead, get a toy and play with her with it. Don’t just expect her to play on her own. If you can’t play in that moment or that isn’t working so well either, put her in her crate for a little while. She likely needs time to herself to rest and calm down.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Please don’t use a shock collar on a 4 month old puppy. Biting is completely normal, and a shock collar will do more harm than good.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

She outgrew her crate and she never really accepted it. (Lots of screaming.) For now, I've taken to tying her to tree outside when she needs a time out. I would just let her run free, but she throws herself at the windows trying to get back inside and I'm afraid there's going to be broken glass and a lot of blood.

Teaching her to be calm has been fruitless so far. She quickly gets bored at being calm and the problems start right up again. Right now, I've decided to go from your basic alpha-leader to hard-core drill instructor. Enticements with treats and simple verbal corrections are just being ignored. I don't want to go full-bore nasty with her. But I think she still hasn't accepted that there is just one boss.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

You need a trainer. Your puppy has learned that if she fusses enough, she’ll get her way. This is not a problem with her, this is a problem with how you are managing her. No puppy likes to be forced to practice being calm. That doesn’t mean we give up and don’t work on it. She’s very young, and if you go full on drill sergeant with her you are just going to damage your relationship. Stop thinking you need to dominate your puppy and work on building real engagement instead. I’d reintroduce an appropriately sized crate. Try Susan Garrett’s Crate Games.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Calipso said:


> She outgrew her crate and she never really accepted it. (Lots of screaming.) For now, I've taken to tying her to tree outside when she needs a time out. I would just let her run free, but she throws herself at the windows trying to get back inside and I'm afraid there's going to be broken glass and a lot of blood.
> 
> Teaching her to be calm has been fruitless so far. She quickly gets bored at being calm and the problems start right up again. Right now, I've decided to go from your basic alpha-leader to hard-core drill instructor. Enticements with treats and simple verbal corrections are just being ignored. I don't want to go full-bore nasty with her. But I think she still hasn't accepted that there is just one boss.


Don't mean to be harsh, you are not the "boss", instead it sounds like your approach has already been WAY too heavy handed! You are not teaching your dog, you're bullying her. It simply is not possible to correct the puppy for being a puppy, biting is an integral part of that! Peeing on your bed is her way of telling you what she thinks of that! She sounds like a good puppy!

So take a step back, change your perspective, lead your bundle of energy TOWARD behaviors you want to see. Praise and reward profusely! Learn to read her better and preempt the biting with play, loose this whole domineering attitude, play, engage, steer her with praise. Keep plenty of plastic bottles and cardboard boxes on hand for her to bite and play with! Lead her on exploration adventures in the backyard, or on trails. She's not being bad, she's showing her frustration (just like you are showing her yours)!

If you opt for your "full out drill instructor" mode, as you put it, I predict this dog will retaliate in the future!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I will apologize, in advance, for the abrupt quality of my comments but I literally have 5 minutes before I have to jump on a call. Here's what I see and would recommend, in no particular order of priority.

1. Re-examine your attitude. Whatever her size, this is still a baby. A baby who apparently hasn't learned the rudiments of self-control. That's on you. Ditch the alpha/drill instructor stuff and refocus on training _with a healthy dose of patience and what may feel like endless repetitions_. The old adage is still true: "Training Takes Time."

2. I don't know about you, but I've never had a puppy that learned to calm down overnight or completely on its own. We (owners) have to teach that and we do it by restricting the puppy to a smaller space (e.g., laundry room) or, preferably, a crate. I don't like tie-outs, frankly, and I abhor them for puppies. What tie-outs seem to do (IME) is ramp up frustration (hence the noisy protest) with very little benefit and a LOT of risk (e.g., injury, death by strangulation, etc.).

3. Go back to crating, but do it better this time. Search this list for Crate Games; lots of good ideas there. You've got to teach her that the crate means quiet time; no exciting encounters with you (or anybody else) _no matter how much she protests. _

4. Find a GSD experienced, reputable trainer and have them observe how you interact with and train the puppy. S/he will likely have more than a few suggestions for the best way to go forward and we all can benefit from an extra set of eyes, no matter how experienced we may be. 

5. Post pictures; I like hellions myself. 

Gotta go,

Aly


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

Gypsy has learned to take advantage of people being patient with her. There's a real concern that she's going to carry this idea into adulthood. Being her best friend has become something to exploit. I do hear you and understand that there's a potential downside to zero-tolerance training. But her behavior is exceptionally bad even by puppy standards and it has to stop. I don't want to do it, but she's become a hazard in the household. Everyone here has been bloodied by her. I've lost count of how many shirts and pants she has ripped up (while I was wearing them no less). I'm not kidding when I say a mountain lion would be safer in the house.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Calipso said:


> I do hear you and understand that there's a potential downside to zero-tolerance training. But her behavior is exceptionally bad even by puppy standards and it has to stop. I don't want to do it, but she's become a hazard in the household. Everyone here has been bloodied by her.


But do you understand that your "zero-tolerance" approach is what got you here? Continue on this path and you'll either (a) completely break your dog's spirit, or (b) escalate the biting to a point that will soon become dangerous for you and your family! Seriously, hire a trainer to help you get a handle on repairing your relationship and training methodology, or re-home this puppy before you ruin her!


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

tim_s_adams said:


> But do you understand that your "zero-tolerance" approach is what got you here? Continue on this path and you'll either (a) completely break your dog's spirit, or (b) escalate the biting to a point that will soon become dangerous for you and your family! Seriously, hire a trainer to help you get a handle on repairing your relationship and training methodology, or re-home this puppy before you ruin her!


I think you misunderstood about the zero-tolerance. I have been using the reward and patience method up until now. The zero-tolerance is something that was started today because being the nice guy/best friend method was simply not working. Let me say this again in another way: Her behavior is physically injuring members of the household. Everyone's arms are covered in scabs, cuts and scrapes from her biting behavior and it's been that way for the last 2 months despite patience and attempts to redirect her teeth to her toys. I've taken to wearing thick blue jean pants and a heavy denim long sleeve jacket as protection despite the near 100 degree heat. Not very comfortable, but my arms are finally healing.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Calipso said:


> I think you misunderstood about the zero-tolerance. I have been using the reward and patience method up until now. The zero-tolerance is something that was started today because being the nice guy/best friend method was simply not working. Let me say this again in another way: Her behavior is physically injuring members of the household. Everyone's arms are covered in scabs, cuts and scrapes from her biting behavior and it's been that way for the last 2 months despite patience and attempts to redirect her teeth to her toys. I've taken to wearing thick blue jean pants and a heavy denim long sleeve jacket as protection despite the near 100 degree heat. Not very comfortable, but my arms are finally healing.


This sounds like a GSD puppy. There are so many members here that have scars from their pups. That is completely normal, and there is nothing wrong with her. Going after her in an aggressive manner and treating her like she's being a bad dog is not going to help. She is doing what puppies do. She is not doing anything wrong.

She does sound like she needs work on impulse control and consistency, but you keep saying things that imply you think something is wrong with her. She is 4 months old. She is not an adult. It will take months of patience, and if you can't handle that, you should not have a puppy. Please get a good trainer and stop expecting so much of her.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Do you have Gypsy on a leash? Energy like this needs control. I would have her tethered to me when not confined until she learns how to behave.

Have you redirected the biting with tugs and toys? I carried toys around with me with my puppies. Seriously! I have an apron thing with pockets, and would pull out their favorite toys. When they got mouthy, I offered or enticed them to bite a tug instead of me:grin2: and made a game of it. 

I may not be getting the whole picture correct, but she sounds like an energetic pup who wants to engage and play with you. She wants your attention.

If redirecting works, then you can use that to get little OB behaviors. Example: "Sit" then offer the tug or ball or toy and play.

Maybe more of that kind of engagement, instead of just running , would work to tire her and help her to relax more.

OR, you can send her to me! I love the little whirlwinds!>


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Calipso said:


> I think you misunderstood about the zero-tolerance. I have been using the reward and patience method up until now. The zero-tolerance is something that was started today because being the nice guy/best friend method was simply not working. Let me say this again in another way: Her behavior is physically injuring members of the household. Everyone's arms are covered in scabs, cuts and scrapes from her biting behavior and it's been that way for the last 2 months despite patience and attempts to redirect her teeth to her toys. I've taken to wearing thick blue jean pants and a heavy denim long sleeve jacket as protection despite the near 100 degree heat. Not very comfortable, but my arms are finally healing.


I don't think reward, patience and zero tolerance are mutually exclusive. It seems like you've swung from one methodology to a far extreme other one.

I don't think scruffing the pup and pinning her to the ground is going to get you anywhere.

I don't think tying her to a tree is going to get you anywhere.

I agree start over with crate training and best case scenario find a trainer to teach you that you can be a patient, fair leader and offer a ton of rewards, WITHOUT being a pushover who is used as a chew toy and not respected. 

Does she know how to eat a kong? Bully stick? Raw marrow bone? Get this little beastie busy gnawing on something that isn't you.

Does she know how to play tug? 

Any mental stimulation? Can you start feeding her by making her track for her food? That'll wear her out without wrecking her joints and bonus she will know how to do something cool when you're done. Except, you may be in fire ant country so that may be a no go.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Calipso said:


> I think you misunderstood about the zero-tolerance. I have been using the reward and patience method up until now. The zero-tolerance is something that was started today because being the nice guy/best friend method was simply not working. Let me say this again in another way: Her behavior is physically injuring members of the household. Everyone's arms are covered in scabs, cuts and scrapes from her biting behavior and it's been that way for the last 2 months despite patience and attempts to redirect her teeth to her toys. I've taken to wearing thick blue jean pants and a heavy denim long sleeve jacket as protection despite the near 100 degree heat. Not very comfortable, but my arms are finally healing.


Perhaps I did get that wrong if it's not something you've done in the past. My apologies! What I was going by is what you said in your original post:



> *And despite numerous reprimands, she continues to want to bite. (My arms are in shreds from puppy teeth. I've taken to doing physically grabbing her by the scruff of the neck and pinning her to the floor when she bites. This correction lasts about 15 seconds and she's right back doing it again. It's like trying to tame a mountain lion. The odd part is that is actually learns commands easily. She just decides that she doesn't want to behave and goes into the "I'm going rogue. Try and stop me" mode.*


I just raised a puppy, who is now 18 months, and I can count on 1 hand the number of corrections I have given her before she was 6 months old! I never "grabbed her by the scruff of the neck for anything, nor did I ever feel the need! What I did do, and what I'm suggesting you do, is lead your puppy to behaviors you want. Just a little preemptive redirection works wonders! And the thing is, this is a battle you will only win by absolutely breaking that poor puppy's spirit! A much more desirable situation is to form a bond with your puppy so that the 2 of you are partners. And that includes developing a dialog between you that is well-defined and clear - in both directions! The puppy, as others have noted already, is not bad or even unusual. The "problems" you are having are not at all unique, I can't tell you how many times I've seen this exact scenario! It is a handler/owner problem...



> I've tried to tire her out. I run her nearly two miles every morning and that used to be good for a few hours of peace. But now that just fires her up.


This is also normal, but again, running a 4 month old puppy 2 miles is not healthy for the puppy! Your puppy needs less forced exercise and more engagement with you, and probably much more mental stimulation. Again, these things are on you. Bored puppies WILL be more destructive and bitey! If you want it to stop, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take a new tack. Work with a trainer, which doesn't mean a HUGE expense! Just a few sessions with a good trainer can reset you and your puppy, and you'll see a HUGE improvement very quickly!



> This is not my first shepherd by any means. And I've had a wolf hybrid. But Gypsy is a whole order of magnitude more of trouble than her predecessors. A shock collar is starting to look really attractive about now. This is the most headstrong dog I've ever come across.


I am not anti e-collar, though I have only ever used them on hunting dogs. But I can tell you that most people use them for proofing behaviors. That is, one must first teach the dog such that you're seeing a high level of compliance - >80% - with a command before using the collar! I have personally seen several instances of GSDs set back by e-collar "training" at these big-box training facilities where they really only know a single method - compulsion! Please don't head down that rabbit hole!

Honestly my friend, I did not spend this much time responding to your post just to pick on you! I know that once you and your puppy get into this kind of contentious feedback loop, it seems like upping the corrections is the only thing that seems to make sense. But please contact a good GSD-experienced trainer first, you, your puppy, and your family will all be glad you did!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dave Kroyer is in Hutto. I would suggest you make the drive. Look for a local IPO club and ask for a trainer. You need professional help. Not because she is that bad, but because she's past your knowledge base.

Stop pinning her. All that is accomplishing is making her mad.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I hope you are not chaining her to a tree, because that is illegal in San Antonio.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I would second going to Dave Kroyer. I have raised many pups. Not a one was allowed to holes in me, no matter their drive level. This is completely normal for a pup to WANT to do, but it is up to the owner to effectively, and fairly, stop this.


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## Suzy25 (Mar 3, 2016)

Get another crate, a good strong one she can't get out of and one large enough for her to grow into. and crate train. go back to basics. she should not be screaming in her crate and if she still is a 4 months then it shows shes used it to get her way and get let out for being noisy in the past

Go get a trainer, stop man handling her that only gets her more riled up and mad. any type of physical control like that wont get you the results you are looking for.

In the meantime, crate train her, if she isn't actively doing training, exercise, or being tethered to you,(you, not a tree or anything in the home) put her in a crate. Shes a puppy they need lots of sleep and a structured life.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Calipso said:


> Gypsy has learned to take advantage of people being patient with her. There's a real concern that she's going to carry this idea into adulthood. Being her best friend has become something to exploit. I do hear you and understand that there's a potential downside to zero-tolerance training. But her behavior is exceptionally bad even by puppy standards and it has to stop. I don't want to do it, but she's become a hazard in the household. Everyone here has been bloodied by her. I've lost count of how many shirts and pants she has ripped up (while I was wearing them no less). I'm not kidding when I say a mountain lion would be safer in the house.


I'm back and wanted to comment on the above. First, puppies/dogs don't think like this. Puppies _do_, they don't think very much until they're older. (In that respect, they're very much like adolescent boys ). What you've written is the construal that only a frustrated human would make, not a dog. I well understand your frustration, puppies can be challenging to raise and train; some puppies can be extremely challenging and that is not limited to GSDs. 

Second, I _guarantee _that your pup will carry what she understands of her interactions with you/your family into adulthood, but let's look at what that's likely to be. Based on what you've described, I'd bet she'll believe: (1) that you are totally unpredictable (sometimes soft and sometimes mean --- for the same thing); (2) that you get mad a lot; (3) that when she invites you to play, you get mad and pin her to the floor; (4) that when she tries to investigate you (puppies are curious by nature and she doesn't have fingers, so what else is she gonna use but her mouth and nose?), you get mad and pin her to the floor; (5) sometimes, when you get mad, you throw her outside --- by herself; (6) sometimes, when you get mad, you tie her to a tree --- again, by herself; (7) that you (possibly the entire family) don't like her at all; and (8) therefore, that none of you can be trusted. 

That's a heartbreaking message for any living creature to receive. I doubt that you want that either. Fortunately, dogs (especially puppies) are very forgiving and generous souls, so all isn't lost. It may become lost if you continue on your current path, but it doesn't have to be. Simply put, you have to decide whether you/your family have the time, resources and _emotional commitment_ to turn this around. If you don't, my advice would be to either return her to the breeder or find a home that has the time, resources and commitment. You both deserve better than this. 

If you decide that you do want to improve your relationship with this pup, here are the things that I'd suggest that you do. 

1. Start over from the beginning, literally. Treat her like she's a brand new puppy that you just brought home. Set up a reasonable schedule for her (e.g., meal times, play times, quiet times, exercise times) and follow it. 

2. Make sure to build in appropriate exercise periods during the day, everyday. Not just walkies (do that too!), but something that both exercises the puppy *and* teaches her that you are a desirable companion. Tug is good for this, as are flirt poles. If she's too rambunctious, get a doggy soccer ball and play kickball with her. Some of what you've described strikes me as a growing puppy that's insufficiently exercised. If so, that's easy to address.

3. Buy and set up a properly sized crate. My local craigslist typically has multiple 48" crates for sale at less cost than a brand new one. Yours may, as well. Search this forum for tips on crate training, they're invaluable; follow them. 

4. Ditch your current ideas about alpha status, corrections, etc.; that's what got you to this place. Find a good, GSD trainer. You've gotten at least one referral already, so look into that. 

5. Take a deep breath (okay, take another and another). Do that multiple times daily.  Puppies can be hard work, especially if you've got to turn things around. 

This list is a marvelous resource, so don't hesitate to come back with more questions if you run into any bumps along the way. I've found folks to be very generous in sharing their experiences and expertise. 

And, please come back to share your successes.

Aly


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Calipso said:


> Gypsy just had her 4 month birthday and despite near constant attention and training, she is completely out of control. For example, out of the blue she decided to jump onto the bed on pee. (She is potty trained, so this was a surprise.) She is destructive as well. And despite numerous reprimands, she continues to want to bite. (My arms are in shreds from puppy teeth. I've taken to doing physically grabbing her by the scruff of the neck and pinning her to the floor when she bites. This correction lasts about 15 seconds and she's right back doing it again. It's like trying to tame a mountain lion. The odd part is that is actually learns commands easily. She just decides that she doesn't want to behave and goes into the "I'm going rogue. Try and stop me" mode.
> 
> I've tried to tire her out. I run her nearly two miles every morning and that used to be good for a few hours of peace. But now that just fires her up.
> 
> This is not my first shepherd by any means. And I've had a wolf hybrid. But Gypsy is a whole order of magnitude more of trouble than her predecessors. A shock collar is starting to look really attractive about now. This is the most headstrong dog I've ever come across. I'm open to suggestions.



Let me ask you a question, would you have a 1 year old baby human running 2 miles a day?

I am not trying to be rude but your puppy is a baby and you are asking for adult behavior. They are not like a computer that comes pre loaded with appropriate programming. 


You asked for suggestions and you have gotten some great ones!


Get on board with the crate training, work on basic obedience, use redirecting to an appropriate object to minimize biting and find a trainer, I believe Jax08 suggested one. 

Puppies learn what they live, so you will never have a calm, gentle dog if you meet it's actions with anger and violence. I don't teach anything but manners and basics for the first 6 months at least. Let your puppy be a puppy. Sit will cover a multitude of sins. Puppy is leaping and cavorting about the house, putting teeth on everything and everyone in creation. "Puppy Sit!". Puppy sits gets yummy treat and you have it's full attention. No more biting and leaping. Puppy runs off and once again you call her back and "Puppy Sit!". More yummy treats. Before long she is following you around offering her very prettiest sit for yummy treats and lavish praise and calm reigns in the house.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

gsdluvr said:


> OR, you can send her to me! I love the little whirlwinds!>


NOOOOOOO! I'm claiming first dibs!! >


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Aly said:


> In that respect, they're very much like adolescent boys


Hey now! Couldn't you have just said adolescents? I was a very cerebral young man LOL!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

tim_s_adams said:


> Hey now! Couldn't you have just said adolescents? I was a very cerebral young man LOL!


I'm sure you were, but most boys are different...

>

Unrepentant Aly


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

I'm not a big fan of trying to control a pup full of energy by making him/her submit. It takes commitment and time but if you can give the pup off leash time in the open while you are present you can begin forming a bond. Sort of like when I was young My dad would work me so hard that I was pretty calm in the evening BUT he hung in there and worked with me. It formed a bond that is there to this day. Thats how I think you should do your pup. Thats how I have done mine. I let my Sheps play hard before we worked on obedience, leash and commands. If you have a young pup who is full of energy and excited about life then dont break that spirit/energy.... use it. The first early months are wearysome but they will go away and you will look back on this time with fondness.

Note the tongue hanging. Burning some of that energy off


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Different question that may put some of what people are trying to say into perspective:

What do you do for FUN with this pup? Anything at all? It sounds like your walks are just work (no joy at all there). Do you play with her? If so, is it just more work, or do you laugh on a regular basis with her antics? 

The reason I'm focusing on this is I've rehomed _a lot _of GSD pups who drove their people crazy. In every case, it was a normal pup that ended up being a great dog...in another home. One of the common denominators I've noticed is there was no joy in the surrendering home -- it was all frustration, aggravation, and work....sometimes anger too. 

That's a mess of negative emotions, and dogs learn to mirror our emotions very quickly. Those aren't the emotions puppies need to be absorbing. I feel like a lot of dogs give back exactly what they receive from people.

Pups revel in joy, not just their own but the joy of other dogs and people. They bond and learn through play. Please do some thinking about whether there's enough joy in your relationship, and if not, whether you can bring it back.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

I work from home which means she's here with me getting constant attention. She is absolutely spoiled rotten and I think that's part of the problem. FWIW, she's behaving better already (at least for now) so I can relax her discipline accordingly. We'll see if it holds. 

The issue (at least in Gypsy's case) is that training purely with reward only works as long as they are interested in the reward. If they decide the misbehavior is more rewarding than the offered reward, there's going to be trouble and that's seems to be the case here.


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## Suzy25 (Mar 3, 2016)

Know that i know you work from home it makes me think she might get too much freedom and starts to take advantage of it. a little to spoiled having you home all the time. 

Make sure that even though you work from home and can give constant attention that you still give her structured rests, best to be in a crate. for a couple hours every morning and afternoon, just put her in a crate ignore (fully ignore, no looking, talking, yelling, petting, etc.. for the whole time she is in there, not letting out until she is fully calm) all screaming etc.. teach her to be calm in the crate and to rest, that kind of structure is absolutely amazing for puppies, they thrive off of structure (make sure not to get structure mixed up with routine, very different with dogs) too much freedom, too much exercise, not enough mental exercise etc... are some of many things that can be a factor into the type of behaviour she was displaying

I agree to a point about your comment about positive only training not working for her because the behaviour is more rewarding than the treat or toy, but remember that correcting the behaviour doesnt have to be physical, like the holding on the ground stuff you were describing earlier. it can be as simple as you stopping all attention to her, removing whatever she was using, removing her from the situation, saying "no" standing up and simply walking away from her when she starts biting you etc... physical force is no good with a young pup like her, you dont want to damage her spirit or accidentally train or correct the wrong thing and not even notice until later. 

Nice to hear she is improving, many people have given you great tips for her, be sure to really read and listen to them


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

I do NOT mean to sound rude but you need a trainer to show you different methods of training. You pretty are doing the opposite of what you should be doing - i.e. 'pinning her down when she bites' (this is giving her attention/she thinks its play) -- 'running her 2 miles every day' (not good for a 4 mo puppy/conditioning her to need more & more exercise). My 3 cents


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Calipso said:


> I work from home which means she's here with me getting constant attention. She is absolutely spoiled rotten and I think that's part of the problem. FWIW, she's behaving better already (at least for now) so I can relax her discipline accordingly. We'll see if it holds.
> 
> The issue (at least in Gypsy's case) is that training purely with reward only works as long as they are interested in the reward. If they decide the misbehavior is more rewarding than the offered reward, there's going to be trouble and that's seems to be the case here.


I think you are missing the point completely. Find a trainer. Your puppy has no issues, the issue is with how you are handling her.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Magwart said:


> Different question that may put some of what people are trying to say into perspective:
> 
> What do you do for FUN with this pup? Anything at all? It sounds like your walks are just work (no joy at all there). Do you play with her? If so, is it just more work, or do you laugh on a regular basis with her antics?
> 
> ...


I cannot love this post more. As someone in the midst of raising a hellion puppy. I laugh all day long with him. His antics, good and bad, bring my joy. He is sooooo bad. So bad. But he is so happy. We are happy together. 

Do I get frustrated, sure I do. Raising a puppy is exhausting. 

I wish you luck. And I echo the "find the happy" in raising another animal. Laugh. Engage, enjoy the journey.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> I cannot love this post more. As someone in the midst of raising a hellion puppy. I laugh all day long with him. His antics, good and bad, bring my joy. He is sooooo bad. So bad. But he is so happy. We are happy together.





So much of this is attitude. Add in some help from a knowledgeable GSD trainer, and it’s a different ball game. While I love my perfect Carly, I’m crazy about Scarlet. She is so bad. So very bad, lol. She’s a handful and I wouldn’t have it any other way. So much fun! There is a reason my breeder said “we are NOT keeping that one”. She knew I’d love that unruly beast. She thinks every day is a party. 

Like Magwart said, have FUN with that puppy.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

1) You mentioned that you've had other shepherds. No offense, but it doesn't sound like you have even had any other dogs, let alone shepherds. And a wolf hybrid is not the same thing. It's not even the same species.

2) Puppies bite. Period. Get used to it. I'm on my 2nd GSD puppy. He's 5 months old and he bites and bites and bites. My arms and hands and fingers are constantly wrapped in bandages. This is what you signed up for when you decided to get a puppy. You should have done your research before you got your puppy. There are plenty of threads in this and other forums about the biting (aka landsharking). Spend a little time and do some research about it. They bite because they don't have opposable thumbs. Using their mouths is how they learn about the world. Also they're going through teething. The biting will get better after they stop teething. Some take 6 months. Some, much longer. I guarantee you mine is much worse than yours with regards to the biting. I can also guarantee that most of us in here have gone through the same thing. Your story is not new.

3) a 4 month old...forced running for 2 miles? Another reason why I don't think you know what you're doing. Many GSDs (or any large breed dogs) are known to have joint problems later in life. I understand the need to drain some of that energy. This isn't the way to do that. Their growth plates haven't even fully formed yet. Again, read up on what you can do. Plenty of articles on that. I made that mistake with my previous dog. In his senior years, he had to be on glucosumine. His joints were weakened. Just another cost to spend on the dog.


4) what everyone else is saying about crate training...do it! plenty of articles on that, read up on it. You don't let it out or give up because it starts "screaming." Make it a fun and safe place for it to go. My pup loves to go in his crate and sleep on his own. When I take his leash off, he knows to immediately go into his crate.


5) There are such things as "treats" and "high value treats." Treats are biscuits and jerkies and things like that that you give often. High value treats are things that get their eyes wide open and their mouths salivating, like peanut butter, liverwurst, raw bones, etc... My pup loves baby carrots, Zuke's, real raw meat, raw bones, etc. I save these for training purposes. The other treats are just for the **** of it. Find something that excites him and use that for training purposes. Also, train when he's hungry....like just before a meal.


6) Since you're at home all day, your puppy should be leashed at all times. That way she can't get into trouble. It helps with potty training also.

7) You're expecting way too much from a 4 month old. *A 4 month old!* I agree with others....if you really don't have a clue, maybe the best thing to do is to rehome her. She's still young, she has a chance. If you want to keep her, find a trainer and/or start reading a lot about it. No one wants to see a grown GSD dumped off at the local pound. Sorry for being blunt, but someone needs to be.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I LOVE my four month old puppy! I do not work from home, so I am gone 10+ hours per day. I do not use a crate for her, except when she is in my car -- about once per week. My arms and clothing bear no teeth marks. None. 

Her tail whips back and forth beating her chest on both sides. When I bend over the x-pen to give her pets, she comes up and piddles a little in excitement. She will outgrow that, so I totally ignore it. The only other thing is that she get's car sick. She will outgrow that too. I just clean it up. 

Otherwise she is a dream puppy. I don't care at all about who's the boss. We made it to three of the puppy class-sessions, missed two, and the last class will be Saturday. I don't care if she can sit or down or walk on a lead at this point. She is doing it. But it is all a game at this point. She is a baby and I want her to be HAPPY. I want her to piddle in excitement when she sees me because she thinks I am better than chopped liver. I want her tail to beat her chest with happiness. I manage her environment -- she has an indoor outdoor kennel that she shares with her mother, and is separated by an x-pen and baby gate from my living room. What is in her kennel area is safe for her to chew on, play with, eat, whatever. When she is in the rest of the house, I supervise. I have a second kennel out front with more toys, and different dogs in adjoining kennels. It works for us. 

To properly raise a puppy you have to have:
Patience
Realistic Expectations
Consistency
Joy
Fun
Plan B
Plan C
Plan D
Gentleness
Energy
A good sense of humor
A reasonable amount of Intelligence
Commitment


I have my pup's half-sister who is now 2.5 years old. She is perfect. With the exact same method, she made me the proudest person on the planet at the biggest dog show in Cleveland last December. She placed on all three of her title legs there, and she stayed on a down-stay in the middle of a busy dog show, while my nieces and I ate lunch about 30 feet away. She's my buddy, my friend, my joy, my love, I can take her anywhere and trust her in any situation. I don't think I have ever raised my voice at her.

Maybe you should call your breeder and ask for advice, and even consider giving the pup back to the breeder. Having a puppy should be a good thing. It sounds so very difficult and that has to be hard on the pup too.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Magwart said:


> Pups revel in joy, not just their own but the joy of other dogs and people. They bond and learn through play. Please do some thinking about whether there's enough joy in your relationship, and if not, whether you can bring it back.


I SO love this, @Magwart, it's a brilliant summary. Thanks for posting it. 

Aly


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Calipso said:


> I work from home which means she's here with me getting constant attention. She is absolutely spoiled rotten and I think that's part of the problem. FWIW, she's behaving better already (at least for now) so I can relax her discipline accordingly. We'll see if it holds.
> 
> The issue (at least in Gypsy's case) is that training purely with reward only works as long as they are interested in the reward. If they decide the misbehavior is more rewarding than the offered reward, there's going to be trouble and that's seems to be the case here.


I hope you can find a good trainer. If the puppy is "choosing" misbehavior instead of reward that is offered it sounds like one of two things to me

-you are misunderstanding what's going on
-reward is being used all wrong
-possibly also combined with the puppy not being managed properly.

I am a master manipulator when they are little. When they are big too but especially when they are little. Set them up so that they do whatever I wanted them to do by preventing other possibilities from occurring then they earn a wonderful reward for doing what I wanted them to do anyway which they usually don't know I manipulated them into doing but it sure was rewarding and definitely something they want to do again. Before you know it pup is offering all sorts of things that have proved rewarding in the past, and these are things I like because I caused the pup to do them .

Set them up to be able to self reward for unwanted behaviors as little as possible.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

More structure will be more helpful. Crate then let out - potty - some training or structured playing with toys - learn a new trick, having fun with some agility equipment, then potty then crate rinse and repeat. 

They crave interaction and pups need to be taught to behave and what is expected and not left to their own devices. This was our way of life for awhile. . Max was incredibly mouthy so interactions had to be structured redirection with toys. Drag leash with a flat collar for a correction. It felt like forever but was not. Similar to having toddlers a lot of patience and consistency, repetition , a new experience for everyone - a schedule is what is needed. Going to a trainer will help teach you things to teach your pup.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135827


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Please stop running with this puppy. My younger dog was run for 2 miles a day when he was very young. He was lame when we got him at 6 months, and he is still lame now at 5 years, despite treatment. He will never recover from the damage that was done to him. It's a permanent part of his life now. 

Also, running with your pup is only making her more fit and giving her even more energy. It will take more and more running to tire her out, doing more and more damage to her young body. There is no positive outcome to what you are doing.

It's obvious that you need help with this pup. As others have suggested, please seek out a good GSD trainer and follow their advice.

Getting a pup to use her mind is often more tiring than physical exercise. Get some puzzles for her, do more obedience, teach her tricks, give her a job like picking up her toys and putting them in a toy box, anything to get her brain engaged. You will be surprised at how tired she will be after such sessions.

I wish you the best with your pup, but please don't continue in the direction you are going.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

You got a ton of great advice in this thread.

I'm going to recommend you find a nice quiet walking trail and take this girl exploring. This is not about walking her to and from, hoping she's exercised and tired. This is about exploring together; stopping to check things out, a downed tree, let's climb over it, leaf piles, what's under it, maybe even crossing a fun stream. Get muddy/dirty with her in the process. Maybe even pack a lunch and share a some apple slices with her, take a break under a tree, sit right on the ground. This is about bonding.

This may sound silly but I really bonded with my adult male like this when he was a pup. We enjoy hiking together so much that we travel far distances to backpack on some beautiful trails. We have our favorite places close to home that we frequent often.

I will do the same with my new pup who just turned 11 weeks. We will be out in the great outdoors, enjoying life.

To me it seems like you are lacking a bond with her. You just got to find your stride with her. Remember you are in charge but be a FAIR leader.

Good luck!


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## graciesmom (Jun 10, 2006)

You've received a lot of advice, suggestions, recommendations including responses I don't think you were anticipating and possibly not ready to hear. I really hope you don't go away but sit back and reflect on these. They are not meant to criticize you. I will try not to repeat some of the advice, good as it is. 

In reading this email trail, the one thing that stands out for me is you seem to be of the mindset that reward and/or discipline is your role. That is not so. Reward is a tool to shape behaviours. Same is true of praise. Your role is to shape behaviours. Your role is not to discipline. Discipline is something that comes from within as the dog matures. He/she will learn discipline and self control based on the behaviours you shaped. At 4 months, they are a sponge, taking in everything and anything. So the most important thing you can do is work on shaping their behaviours. Ignore what you consider bad, and reward/praise their successes. They are so incredibly smart (which is why they are my favorite dog breed), but this comes with added challenges. They read us much more quickly than we read them. This is where they outsmart us. We have to try our best to stay ahead of them mentally and recognize when something we want is not or no longer working. Most times, at least for me, is they are bored with it and ready for something more. This could be where tug, fetch, frisbee or what have you no longer interests them. You need to up the game mentally. Add find it, hide and seek, nose work, etc. They are extremely hardy and you will tire out physically before they do (at least I do). You need to really put your game hat on and try to assess what they are ready for next mentally. This is not easy and I think it's the #1 challenge in raising a GSD but it is also what I consider the "fun" part of having a GSD. 

I know I've had to do a lot of reading and learning to better understand my GSD's needs. Less talking from me, it's all yada, yada, yada to them and more use of body language is what works for me. It is the #1 communication tool for both me and my dogs. There are a lot of books out there and I think you will find a lot of recommendations in that regard, but one in particular I might suggest is The Seven Ages of Man's Best Friend by Jan Fennel. Easy read and gives a pretty good explanation of how dogs develop/learn etc through their lives.

Your pup sounds completely normal and absolutely lovely. Give her some ice chips and or ice cube from me, if you will. She will love them and her aching gums from teething will thank you for it. 

ok, I've rambled on enough. Good luck to you and please report back on your progress.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

I think there's a misunderstanding about Gypsy being 'forced' to run 2 miles. She's the one setting the pace. And it's a mix of running and walking. When she was younger and just starting out, I'd let her set the pace. When she got tired, I would carry her. Now, she doesn't tire nearly so easily.

For those wanting a picture:


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

She is cute!

As far as the running for two miles, I like to compare that to setting a kid in front of an all-you-can-eat junk food buffet. The kid will just keep eating the junk food, even if you tell him it’s bad for him. Some puppies will just keep running even though it’s bad for them. It is up to the parent (or dog owner) to decide when enough is enough because the puppy/child won’t do it for themselves. Running two miles for a young puppy is too much and it is damaging to the joints, even if the puppy enjoys it and doesn’t seem tired.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My dogs are with me a lot and they behave well most of the time. When they aren’t behaving well it’s because I have allowed it. At 7 months my WL was developing a few bad habits. I’m very experienced with dogs, mostly all GSDs, but I knew I was getting in over my head. I found a trainer who had job experience with many WL dogs (military, LE) and knew exactly what I was dealing with (higher drive than I expected or was used to). I am still working with the same trainer, for two years now. He is an amazing dog, focused (we work on focus), and very content. I can’t stress enough how important a good trainer is. You haven’t made any mistakes you can’t correct but do it right away. You can learn and you can become a good trainer.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Calipso said:


> For those wanting a picture:


Thank you! Love her expression. Opinions may differ, but she looks like a real spark plug to me. Love it!



Aly


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

Pytheis said:


> She is cute!
> 
> As far as the running for two miles, I like to compare that to setting a kid in front of an all-you-can-eat junk food buffet. The kid will just keep eating the junk food, even if you tell him it’s bad for him. Some puppies will just keep running even though it’s bad for them. It is up to the parent (or dog owner) to decide when enough is enough because the puppy/child won’t do it for themselves. Running two miles for a young puppy is too much and it is damaging to the joints, even if the puppy enjoys it and doesn’t seem tired.


You are so right! I had been told that by a K9LEO but have never read it.


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## louisebarron (Oct 23, 2010)

Please no shock collar. Try an animal behaviorist to come to the house. A person who works with dogs who can help you both. She is worth it. This and patience may work.


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