# Training the routine



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I was browsing through threads and came across a post which opines: "if you are practicing the routine before trialing, that is deadly for attitude [of the dog]. If you feel you need to run through the routine for your learning, do it without the dog."

This leads me to ask the question: If you are not practicing the routine then what are you practicing? In other words, what are you doing with the dog to get him ready for trial if you are not training within the routine that you will be doing at the trial?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm building his attention span, his desire to work, his enthusiasm. I'm doing OB exercises that builds muscle memory so that the movements come to him naturally and effortlessly. I throw in lots of unexpected NON-routine moves to see if he is really paying attention, or just memorizing steps (I swear he can count, LOL). I test him with various distractors around him as what could happen in a trial. What if it starts raining and a member runs on the field with an umbrella for the judge, for example? 

Training for a routine also gets the dog to anticipate the next move. So I'm training for my dog to wait for a command, not knowing which command comes next.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

So Lucia, I am trying to imagine what your obedience training would look like. So you step on the field, then what?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Stark and I are working on getting ready for his BH and I _was _just going through the pattern with Stark (and without) on a regular basis. He became bored and would loose interest/focus in me.

So now... 

We go out to the field, do a few steps (nice and engaged) and then break! I do one of two things;

a.) put him in his crate 

b.) play with him on the field

c.) do some sort of "fun" obedience with him

Now when I put him in the crate and totally ignore him he seems to work better when I bring him out again. He CRAVES the attention and his focus is great for a longer period of time.

When we play on the field, I run around, push him, let him jump on me, chase him, play tug with him, and do all sorts of silly things with him. Then depending on how engaged he is, we will either continue working a few more steps or I will put him away.

Stark really enjoys the 'active' obedience such as jumps, flip finishes, the A-frame, platz in motion, etc... so we will do that. I will automatically start running and then drop him. He gets so excited when I change things up a bit.

For the past couple of weeks, we haven't gone through the pattern at all. I have been working about 10-15 steps at the most right now to really get that focus that I am looking for. For now, it seems to be working so we are sticking with it!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Elisabeth,

So what will happen when you show for the BH and you take your first 15 steps (nice and focused) then no ball comes? What will the next 265+ steps of heeling look like?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Obviously we will continue working up from where we are, adding more steps as his focus improves.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

And what is your rate of progress so far? What I mean is if you heel 15 steps perfect today how many perfect steps do you expect tomorrow?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Depends on the day.  And if I had a "typical" training routine, then I'd be training a pattern, wouldn't I? 

Sometimes I bring him out into the middle of the field and platz him and leave him there for half an hour while I step off the field to talk to others or help someone out with some spotting, while everyone else just works around him. Sometimes I'll stand there with my back to him for 10 15 minutes so he gets used to it. Sometimes I do a long down after we have worked on other stuff. Sometimes we don't do any downs at all. 

Sometimes I start heeling down the field moving in a stiff manner and breating in shallow breaths with my head held high as if I was in trial and shaking with nervousness. I don't do more than one or two sits and downs in motion in a session, sometimes I break him right away, sometimes I take a few steps and break him. Sometimes I move back to him and we take up heeling again. Sometimes I'll do my 20-30 steps or more and either do a recall, or not. 

Sometimes I start by working him up into a drive frenzy by playing tug with him first but not quite letting him catch it. Sometimes it is out of the car and onto the field in a heel and not break for a while as I expect him to work in drive with or without me waving the tug around for him to try and catch. But all the previous tug sessions incorporated into the heeling helps him bring his drive through by association, tug or no tug in sight. 

Sometimes I go on the field and we start with jumps and retrieves. Or recalls. Or I go on the field and pretend I'm reporting to the judge. And walk off and do a long down. Or report to the judge, and go off and heel backwards a bit or do spirals, just because. 

Or, lets see, sometimes we just play with the dumbell to build drive. Sometimes I got through the formal retrieve exercises to test his ability to cap his drive and wait for the command (needs work  ). Sometimes I throw the dumbell, and run away as he brings it back to me. I like to keep him guessing. 

The one thing that is pretty routine is the send-out though. Usually towards the end of my on-field time. What I don't want is him to think that we are doing a send out as we would start our heeling routine in trial - and when we do the send out, I have practiced it from different start positions, with the send-out post in different places than the routine (going the other way down the field, at an angle in the corner, off the field even), and of course vary the buildup to the send out. Might throw in some other turns and stops and backsteps or sidesteps before lining myself up with the send-out post and sending him. 

So far, I've only done a couple of BH's and on OB1, so not much experience to go on, but what I have done is maybe go through the complete routine with my dog two or three times total one or two weeks before trial. I agree that pattern training can get boring for the dog and is counter-productive, but I'm sure that every dog is different and needs a bit of a different approach. 

Of course, you can argue that since I've been able to itemize my training approach, I DO have a pattern, since I just listed a bunch of stuff I would "usually" do - but it is a _different_ pattern every time from what the trial routine is, so in that sense, it is not trial-pattern training, just MY pattern for having fun, building focus and extending the attention span, and keeping the dog's interest.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Now Lucia this is very interesting to me! When I train I always, always, always do the routine, or a close derivative thereof. For me the closer the training replicates a trial the better.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think I wrote that. Learned it from people who train for years of frequent competition. I am not really sure how often ScH dogs take the field? I have seen a few with multiple SchH 3s.

Anyway, when doing training, we work on each part of the routine seperately. Perhaps a couple of parts, but not all of it. The dog does not need the routine. The new handler may need it though. 

Dogs can go in and do the routine without having put the entire thing together prior to the competition. The key here is that you can spend training sessions building drive into exercises. You can reward effort during multiple parts of the exercise. When one works on building the desire and power into an exercise, why dilute it with doing everything? 

This approach is utilized by people who will compete year after year, month after month, weekend after weekend. 

Why would the dog need to practice the routine? I can"t think think of a reason. The dog only needs to have drive and desire in each exercise....heeling, retrieve, jump, etc.

The heeling should not diminish after a few steps of heeling without a ball presented if the training has been done well. It is habit and becomes a behavior that is rewarding in itself with good training.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't mind training for the "routine" that s in each exercise. The dog may anticipate the sit or down, etc. But that can be worked through. I name each exercise and the dog knows what we are going to do when I say the word. I like the confidence this build in the dog.

But string all the exercises of a routine together? Probably not doing that "run through" thing.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Zanburgh, I'm curious, if you always pattern train, what happens when you start throwing in different commands at different times? 

I guess part of what I train for, is the overall picture of a dog that loves to work with me, so lots of fun and rewards and play and drive, but then I also push the limits of unbroken focus and self-control. If I have to heel for (how many steps did you quote? 265?) for the routine, my training goal is to have sustained, focused heeling for twice that distance with a variety of exercises thrown in, proofed with distractions. If the long down is 10-15 minutes in the sphinx position, I train for a 30 minute long down, rain or shine or balls bouncing or gunshots. If the routine calls for two gunshots, I practice with four or five shots being fired. 

Same with tracking - if a SchH1 track is 300 feet with 2 articles and 2 corners, I approach it the same way: my goal is for my dog to track at least 500 feet, find at least three articles, and do several corners flawlessly. Then the trial track is easy by comparison. And I sometimes do a trial track in training to see if there is any issues that I need to isolate, but try to keep the training tracks varied, and work on improving one area at a time. 

I have to say that one thing that has been a real eye-opener for me this year is seeing how much of the problems a dog runs into while tracking are training issues - I'm tracking both my dogs most days, and lay similar training tracks, and was quite surprised as how they both would have similar issues and problems in their tracking on the same days - anticipating articles? blowing corners? Nose coming up in the wind?, and so on. Once I isolated the issue and changed my training tracks to address those issues, both dogs would improve dramatically. Really made me see how much tracking has to do with how we develop the basics, how we train and how we lay the tracks. Made me see that the bigger influence in tracking is not the dog's natural ability (which they have plenty), but us and our understanding of dog handling and training.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I was taught/dp and Gabor does a combination of both, depending on the level and day. Depends on what you are working on and how close to the trial. 

Always run thru the routine at points prior to the trial, on same field and different (never been there fields).


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Samba,
My husband trains the "parts" of the exercises separately too.
He trains each part completely, then he may add 1 or 2 parts together...but never has he run through an entire routine.....until trial. (whether he is the handler or just the trainer).
He believes if the dog is taught 100 % correctly..... when combining the exercises on trial day...the dog should *know* each part, and perform them.
He also believes that dogs "learn" too easy the mechanics of a whole routine, and they can anticipate the next step, which can cause dogs to "avoid" certain parts of it that they feel "stressed" in.
By training the dog correctly in each "segment" of a routine.....they should have no problem when the entire exercise is finally put together.
*I'm just expressing the way he does things*

FWIW *I don't think there is any *one* perfect way to train....each person or trainer trains differently.*


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

No perfect way. Dogs are good learners so sometimes it is difficult to ferret out whether one has a good method or a good dog!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We never, ever train the routine. We want the dog to pay attention and work because it is fun and exciting, not predictable. 
When we are getting ready for a trial we will both walk the routine without a dog until it becomes second nature for us, but not the dog. This way on trial day, your body and mind can follow the routine without having to panic and count.
One of us will walk the routine while the other watches and counts just to make sure .
Like Robin says her husband does, we will train segments of the routine when training but we never string the whole thing together until trial.
Many years ago we had a lady in our club who was obsessive about the routines, she would drill the routines into the dog's head over and over. Her dogs always scored very well (she was Schutzhund USA handler of the year once IIRC) but her dogs always kind of looked like robots. Also, if the judge ever threw in a change, she would have an absolute hissy fit. It really soured my husband on this type of trialing so this played a big part in how we train and trial around here.

Annette

Annette


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Just to add....
He (Carlos) also believes and is firm in this opinion....
Why trial a dog that isn't worthy of trialing?...or even 100% ready?
He could never understand this type of thinking.
1) Why walk onto a trial field with a dog *not to par*?...who wants to worry "Will my dog pass_*?"....since anything can happen on a trial day anyway.*_
He compares it to being not "prepared" for a job.......come to the job with the right "equipment"..


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

At times I will do the routine, but mostly I train in parts. If you watched me work my dogs much of what I do would make little sense, but the pieces come together when it matters. My young dogs see a bit more pattern than the more advanced dogs. The send out always comes after the retrieves. The SIM, DIM, StIM always are run in the same sequence, but not always in a standard heeling pattern. The reward comes at different times and come trial day the dog is building throughout wondering when she will get paid.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

robinhuerta said:


> FWIW *I don't think there is any *one* perfect way to train....each person or trainer trains differently.*


And each dog requires different things.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

lhczth said:


> And each dog requires different things.


Agree here. That is why we do not do one way or the other completely. And, esp in OB, Gabor's dogs do not look like robots since he does run thru the routine randomly.

And he will occasionally do all 3 phases - some of it from a conditioning standpoint, most of it from a mental for the dog.

Has not negatively impacted his training, timing of training, timing of trials and scores.

It's the interruption of work


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I find this very interesting! 

The way I look at it I want the dog to look at trial day as just another training day, thus I train like I am in a trial. I report to the judge, do all the exercises in order, going the correct way etc. The obvious difference is that in training I can correct the dog and he can be rewarded. Thus at a trial he is sure the same can happen.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I tend to push my dog too far...I want to build stamina, so will go too long without rewarding. His heeling/focus flattens out because of this. 
I don't know what the answer is...Art makes perfect sense, but the small steps/stringing it together for the end result seems to work better for me and Karlo. 
We did the obedience heeling routine at our last training session. I did not have a reward toy on me. It showed(we did it all off leash).
I rewarded him with happy party type praise at the end. 
So for my dog, I see that he needs to be rewarded more often to keep his level of enthusiasm up. On trial day, I know he'll pass the BH, but it won't be as pretty as some of the flashier dogs...


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> So for my dog, I see that he needs to be rewarded more often to keep his level of enthusiasm up. On trial day, I know he'll pass the BH, but it won't be as pretty as some of the flashier dogs...


 Now this is a different topic but an interesting one. I would say that your dog needs to be rewarded less. He (and you) need to change what the reward means. I hear people all the time talk about it as a "paycheck". Meaning the dog works and he is paid. I think this is problematic. Of course if "payday" comes around more often the dog will be happy. Wouldn't you be happy if your boss said "This week we are paying you a weeks salary every day"?

On the other hand how happy would you be if your boss said "I know it is payday but there is no money, but just keep working and you will get it...at some point in the future...maybe"? The dog feels the same way.

I think a better way to look at the reward is as a jackpot at the casino. Just like the old lady pumping quarters into the slot machine knows that each lever pull that doesn't win brings her that much closer to the big payout. The dog can think the same way. So what happens with the dog is the longer he goes without getting the ball the more sure he becomes that it is coming soon.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That is why I did not use the ball last session, to see how he would be without payment for that length of time. He was verbally praised and that did help some. 
I want him to work _with_ me, not so much _for _the ball because ME is all we'll have on trial day.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Part of the issue I was getting at has to do with the fact thst often thosenew to competition tend to go through the routine and test the dog too much.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

At one point Zahnburg, you could just send your dog to do the routine without you . . . Then who or what is the dog working for? I find it interesting that you pattern train, I can't think of anyone that I know or know of that has gone on toh higer level competition advocate pattern training. What I have seen is that the dog does get bored to tears and the spark and animation dies. 

Jane, I am finding that just now is Gryffon's attention span really kicking in and I can work him longer without a break and maintain his intensity in OB (work him for 20 minutes +). I think it is a maturity thing. 

Last winter when we did indoor training, we were timing our training sessions - I had to keep them at 10 minutes or he faded. Now I can do much more than that.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Since I do SchH for fun there is a simple reason why I don't pattern train: I get bored. I couldn't step every training session knowing what I am going t do is the same every single day. I hate all kinds of routines, I don't even go to the gym because I hate doing those series and exercise myself hiking on the woods. If training the routine every time were required for doing schH, then I'd have quit years ago. 

It is in fact one of the things I don't like of Schutzhund, while on the other hand what I love of SAR is the always training for the unforeseeable.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yeah, change it up. Sit out motion and direct to retrieve a DB off to the side! At first a bit if confusion, but then the dog brightens at the change ups. They are paying attention to you and taking direction. Those are my goals....pay attention to me and take my direction.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I find it interesting that you pattern train, I can't think of anyone that I know or know of that has gone on toh higer level competition advocate pattern training. What I have seen is that the dog does get bored to tears and the spark and animation dies.


I find that interesting. Most (not all) of the people I know who trial at the top levels train the routine.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Must be a regional difference then.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Or country difference?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I know people who trial at higher levels who do not constantly train the pattern. I think that this is an older practice, and also more common in the groups where I have seen alot of showline dogs training. I imported a dog who is pattern trained - you would say "sitz" to her - and she was absolutely clueless about the command out of context!!!! I now do some AKC with her too, and she has figured out commands mean something specific.

I train exercises...I sometimes heel and do only heeling and dumbbells, sometimes I do motion exercises and hardly any heeling....sometimes I do the whole pattern. the dogs are not bored silly then. I do dumbbell training in the living room in little pieces long before they do them on the field. 

I loosely follow the sequence of trial pattern...dumbbells after heeling/motion, send out last - but the dog is trained, not conditioned to a pattern.

Lee


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

What is the most reinforcing reward rate?
At some point does the behavior itself become gratifying due to the reward history?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Zahnburg said:


> Or country difference?


A number of people who have high-level trial experience have posted that they don't pattern train, so no, don't think so.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Samba said:


> At some point does the behavior itself become gratifying due to the reward history?


 I think the work itself is gratifying due to the German Shepherd being a working dog; they enjoy working. Let them work. I don't think it is necessary to constantly reward the dog to keep him working.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lucia,

Who are you talking about? Aside from Gabor?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That's the point of not pattern training. When the sit and platz out of motion can be thrown in at any point during training and the dog responds correctly 100% of the time, then I know that they are clear on the command and paying close attention, wanting to please and do the right thing. 

If the pattern has a right turn at one point, but upon reaching that point I do a left turn and my dog doesn't miss a step and is still prancing and in perfect position, then I know my dog is paying attention to me and in tune with me - which is what I want to develop in my training, which is the whole point of me doing the training - I guess I'm not that serious about trials or high scores, the relationship with my dog that comes through during training is really the reward that I am working towards.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Robin and Lee, Samba who does a lot of AKC trials - maybe not nationals or the world's, but past club (don't laugh! That is high-level to me,  ).


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

But, Gabor does some of what you would consider pattern training - running thru the routines, then mixing up the next time. Most high level compet do, both here and in Europe, etc (does that cover all?  ). You might not see them do it when you see them occasionally, but they do it. When the serious ones travel states and work on a different field, when they set up a new situation and want to create a trial situation when they can correct the dog (sort of what Art is referring to). That is when you see it. 

To make the focus, you have to be quick, happy and interesting to the dog.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> but past club (don't laugh! That is high-level to me,  ).


 Is this interfering with this conversation? When I say high-level I am talking about people who routinely trial at the world level (and do well). Of course Gabor certainly qualifies as "high-level". By your definition I qualify as "high-level" (Regional and National events) I ceratinly do NOT consider myself to be a "high-level" competitor. 

Do you know Robin or Lee? Have you seen their training?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

And Gabor does the same for club level trials. He does not do anything different for the 1 than the 3. But he does train a bit differently than others.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

to me = pattern training is ALWAYS doing the whole pattern - not just some time.....I do the whole pattern sometimes...and other than praise - with dogs who are trained, only use a reward at the end - they do NOT grab the ball off the pole and run back to me after send out....They plaitz, and I reward them with a game AFTER I pick them up....I even show them the ball being handed off to someone else before trialing...that way they DO the plaitz, not run around looking for it!

I do the pattern as well - but not every single time I am on the field!

Lee


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Lee is saying the same. Mix it up. Yes, you need to do the routine. Or esle you will get the "my dog never did that!" at trial time.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

You know Sue. I think maybe people think I do exactly the routine every time, and this is not the case. Perhaps this is causing issues. When I say "train within the routine" I mean that I do not do exercises out of order and generally do them all in a training session. For example, let us say that yesterday I had too much pressure in my sit out of motion. So today I make heeling, do the group, set up for the sit, take 12 steps and the ball comes, then I do the down. To me this is staying within the routine. What I do not do is what Lucia said earlier. The exercises are never out of order. If I want to work the send out, but not the dumbells, then after the stand I walk to the dumbells, pick it up heel in a circle put it back then set up for the send away.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Just reading what people in this thread have talked about the way they train, I don't see why Art finds it quite so interesting. You train differently than the others Art.. You use corrections, more than the other people who are posting here. I agree with what you just said, the dog should want to work and they should be able to handle some pressure. A dog who knows he must do the work, can be just as enthusiastic, ( and many times more so ), doing the routine than those who are being constantly rewarded every ten feet and are responding to way too much action and prey work from the handler.

Once my dogs know the exercises, I will train the routine, not all of it but in order. Half the routine one day, the other half the next time I train. Won't be exactly the trial pattern for heeling or number of steps but like this: Heeling, SOM, DOM, Recall. Next session retrieves, send out. Maybe before the trial I will put it all together and then back to what I just said. The idea is this : heeling, ( pressure), SOM ( pressure), DOM( pressure), recall ( release of pressure), end session. Next session: Retrieves, ( pressure x 3), send out ( release of pressure), end session.

There is an idea in obedience, like there is in protection nowadays where only one side of the dog is worked with. All prey work, no pressure. The pressure makes the power but people are afraid or maybe not skilled enough to use it correctly. I also think a club trial you can get away with the pumping the dog up and trying to get him all the way through the routine but if you are competing where you are traveling to the trial, the dog must understand it is not optional. The dog should be "working" when the handler tell him to. Most people do not consider their own behavior when they train a dog and I am talking about behavior on trial day. Oh sure, you can practice all that with the breathing etc but it is never the same as you are in the trial. You need a dog, not only genetically, but trained to understand that he must come up in drive when he is pressured or feels the pressure of a nervous,( or even not nervous), handler who is in "trial mode".


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

And is how they understand how to apply, etc the pressure. You could see it at the AWDF. One dog, just walking next to the handler, just going thru the motions the whole routine. Handler somewhat the same. The next dog in that flight, more correct, animated, powerful in the movement. But the handler was more than the 1st.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Vandal said:


> The idea is this : heeling, ( pressure), SOM ( pressure), DOM( pressure), recall ( release of pressure), end session. Next session: Retrieves, ( pressure x 3), send out ( release of pressure), end session.


 Yes Anne, of course. I am just sitting here trying to figure out how people manage this without doing things in order, and I can't figure it out. 

And you forgot the stand, so it is down (pressure), recall (release), finish, (regain control/pressure), stand (pressure), recall (release)


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Zahnburg said:


> Do you know Robin or Lee? Have you seen their training?


No, have you seen mine?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> No, have you seen mine?


 I saw a video with your dog jumping stuff, though I wasn't sure the point. Do you have additional video that you would care to share?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It may be that many of the digs trained today are not experiencing much pressure or corrrction. I can not imagine it is likely to go well if the first experience of pressure in obed is in the trial. Hardly fair to the dog or hopeful for a good score on some dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Karlo tends to do better when he is corrected or when pressure is applied...obedience and protection.
Carrying that over to all three phases is where we have a bit of problem. Tracking with him is different as he is a bit suspicious and not as focused. I wonder if I put pressure on him during this phase, if he'll show more enthusiasm? Or maybe I asked too much of him in his foundation, that now it is showing up as lack of focus. And it has been said, what you do in one phase affects them all.
Dogs are always giving us something to think about, thats for sure.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Samba,

In a trial what pressure is there? The handler can not correct the dog. The dogs that feel pressure in a trial are the ones that are constantly "bribed" to perform. To them when no ball comes in a trial it is pressure, and you see them getting lower and lower as the routine progresses.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Maybe not much pressure on the schutzhund obed field. I will try to get my male ready for it and go out there again.

For my dogs, plenty of pressure in the ring. A judge close by and hovering about, walking up behind the dog, stranger physicay going over the dog, minimal handler interaction, dogs working retrieves only a few feet away, as many as 5000 dogs in the building, deafening noise such that you can not hear the judge. Trialing from 2 to 4 times in a weekend. Other dogs misbehaving a couple of feet away in group exercises. It is pressure of all sorts.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Tracking with him is different as he is a bit suspicious and not as focused. I wonder if I put pressure on him during this phase, if he'll show more enthusiasm? Or maybe I asked too much of him in his foundation, that now it is showing up as lack of focus. And it has been said, what you do in one phase affects them all.


I don't know about enthusiasm but when a dog sees or feels pressure in tracking, either because it has been used there or because of pressure from the other phases, the handler needs to keep their mouth shut. Tell the dog to track and don't say a word. Be as quiet and "small" as possible and don't try to pump him up at the article. Simply reward him, with food or very quiet praise and then start him again. People have bads habits of talking too much on the track but when the dog is feeling pressure, talking makes things MUCH worse. Try it and see if that helps.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

But is that really "pressure"? While I have never shown a dog in those circumstances I would think that sort of atmosphere would make a dog go up....Way up.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Vandal said:


> I don't know about enthusiasm but when a dog sees or feels pressure in tracking, either because it has been used there or because of pressure from the other phases, the handler needs to keep their mouth shut. Tell the dog to track and don't say a word. Be as quiet and "small" as possible and don't try to pump him up at the article. Simply reward him, with food or very quiet praise and then start him again. People have bads habits of talking too much on the track but when the dog is feeling pressure, talking makes things MUCH worse. Try it and see if that helps.


That is what I have been doing, quiet praise at the article with food coming from my hand after I pick up the article to show the judge. I've been about 15 paces back. I stroke his body to the tail at the article before commanding such again. I thought maybe it was because of my quiet handling that he doesn't have the ooomph needed. 
I recently started back up with a jackpot of his meal at the end of the track to see if that would get him more focused. Todays track was a mess...he indicated the articles fine, did the turns fine but found a hole with a critter in it(right on the track) and could have cared less about the track after that. He went thru the motions, but didn't show any dedication to actually search deep nosed. SchH tracking is just not 'real' enough for him, I think!
sorry to take the thread off track


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Todays track was a mess...he indicated the articles fine, did the turns fine but found a hole with a critter in it(right on the track) and could have cared less about the track after that. He went thru the motions, but didn't show any dedication to actually search deep nosed.


Might be what we were talking about earlier. Might need to see some pressure so he understands it is not optional. Think it over how you are going to do that though, before you actually go through with it. You have to have a plan... for sure.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Every dog responds differently to pressure and show environments. Some stress up and some down. It can take its toll either way. I have seen nationally V rated in obed dogs succumb to that crazy environment. The schUtzhund field does seem virtually deserted compared to that and I like that about it. Plenty of room to move out and get a dog pumping. But, even on the SchH firld there will be carying drgrees of handler nerves at times. That does not escape the dog's notice usually.

I use corrections. I also train some dogs that many would not bother to spend time on. I am crazy and like a nasty challenge.

Of course, I train the exercises as they will be performed. It really doesn't matter about the order anyway. Once you get yo the higher levels the order is randomized. So much for pattern.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

RE Annes post:
I know, and am open to suggestions! He is a bit handler sensitive and quite biddable(genetically obedient) high threshold and not over hyper. He needs to have a reason to do the work, not just go thru the motions for the ball or food out of an excessive amount of drive for it.
And with Samba's last one, I am training with a competitive AKC obedience trainer to improve my handling/footwork skills. She is very helpful to us in regards to what the pressure will be like when in the ring. She also is a field/retrieving competitor, so knows the working side of it too( her breed of choice is the Golden Retriever)


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

This year I've been tracking two dogs, planning on a TR2 on Keeta sometime, and it has been a very revealing experience. I usually track both on the same day and lay similar tracks for them, and interestingly (to me), they both show similar strenghts and difficulties or problems, at the same time. When I troubleshoot and change how I do things to address a particular issue, they both improve - so that shows to me that it is maybe 90% training and handling and expectations and identifying the source of the problem, and maybe 10% the dog. 

I can't do harsh corrections on Keeta, but the more experienced she gets, the better she tracks. Gryff has the same handler sensitivity as Karlo, but early on (as in, last year) he got pinch corrections for blowing off a track or for rushing, and he never shut down but always went back to work.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

With Nikon in obedience I will be doing the routine (maybe not step-for-step, but the same types pf exercises) as I prepare for trial, because he is not a very drivey, flashy dog in obedience he really needs to be trained to do the full routine without getting bored and falling flat. I haven't done a Schutzhund trial with him yet but I've done other types and will probably do the same when we prepare for SchH: build up to trial by backchaining the routine exercises. So, retrieves, send out. Then out of motion, retrieves, send out. Then group, out of motion, retrieves, send out...and so on. He's just not a dog that you say "Fuss!" and no matter the context, conditions, or whether he's already ran 10 miles he will pop into drive and heel around for 5 minutes straight. I don't *not* like this about him but his temperament is not really conducive to competitive trialing. Trial routines *are* something we (me and this particular dog) have to build up to and train whether that's ideal or not.

For his tracking, before trial I need to track him 5-7 times a week for 2 weeks prior (normal training, not slack-off summer but not preparing for trial, we track 2-5 times a week). He is a better tracker than he is with obedience but also does his best when I track him consistently (3-5 times a week). If I would be preparing for a SchH1 that doesn't mean SchH1 tracks; rarely do we track that short with that few articles and turns, but probably once a week I'd do a SchH1 track in the mix so he is used to seeing a shorter overall track with longer straight legs lacking articles and turns. That's how we prepared for his trial last fall and tracking was his best score despite it being my personal least favorite phase.

Protection...not sure since the only protection we have done in trial is so vastly different than SchH I'm not sure I can compare the preparation. We did the protection routine as it is in trial once a few days before the trial.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think if someone's dog is falling off in performance due to lack of reward then it could be that the dog is not seasoned and should not be out there. A well trained dog will not need many corrections during a performance so those should be rather few by the time the dog shows. I would think one would eventually have few corrections needed. I wouldn't stop rewarding the dog for extra effort though. A well trained dog does not need constant reinforcement. Perhaps dogs are being trialed too green?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I know a number of lower drive dogs whose owners routinely put them through the routine prior to trialing. It doesn't help and I think it actually makes it worse. They have no dog left and it is bored.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Are you asking me? Not sure about too "green", some are, probably, especially BHs I think. I make a point not to trial my own dogs (at least not in anything of much consequence) until they are 2 years old. I like to know what I'm working with upstairs. Nikon's turning 3 now and hasn't done a SchH trial yet besides the BH (he was 22 months) and did a different type of trial (also three phases) at 27 months. For him, expectations are important in obedience. It is not his strongest phase (though he does each of the exercises very well individually, at least well enough for what I like to see) and to go out and do something like a BH which even for me as a handler is kind of long and monotonous, he needs to do it because I say it is time to work. So routines vs. not routines don't really matter all that much. In prep for a trial I will work up to the actual routine, starting with the end because I believe the exercises going backwards are sort of in order of importance, at least to me (send out is important b/c it is the final impression, retrieves are very important because of their weight on the score, out of motions important because of the number of times the dog must perform fast, correct, straight, etc....). To me, the heeling pattern is the least important and perhaps that goes "down the leash" to the dog. I already know I can control my dog on and off leash, just got back from two weeks vacation with the dog basically off leash around dozens of people, dogs, new environments, etc. I'd rather focus on doing some really nice retrieves and putting the dog up on that then going out and doing 10 minutes of heeling. Sometimes when I watch people train or watch videos I get the impression that people put the majority of importance on the dog's heeling when in fact it is what like 10 points of the 100? So that, plus having a dog that is not up to today's sporty standards, and me placing more importance on other phases or other exercises equals a dog that is kind of a work-b/c-the-master-says-so kind of dog. It's not really falling off due to lack of reward, the result is the same whether there is a trial or there are balls and tugs and raw meat in the armpit. The dog just needs to understand when we are working and that when I saw we ARE working we MUST work. Overall he tends to do better with more of a jackpot reward at the end, like we do our obedience and then play fetch.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I think when people hear "training the routine/pattern" they are imagining going out and doing the trial routine, start to finish, every session and that's what people are saying they don't see people doing. I'd agree I don't see that much myself, nor do I do it.

But if it means sort of using the routine as a guide in terms of the order of exercises in training, then yes I think most do that to some extent.

I will do the actual routine, as written with no real variances, a few times a year, but no more than that. I do tend to always do one run through, set up trial style complete with someone playing judge, clipboard in hand, usually 6 weeks or so before trial in order to pinpoint the things to focus the most on in training leading up to trial.

For regular training I am often breaking down exercises down into more specific components that might appear to be pretty random. So to someone watching from the sidelines, what I'm doing may not seem to be at all similar to the trial routine. I might be working on out of motions, but using completely different techniques focusing on command recognition, cue recognition and getting fast responses in place and the things I'm doing look nothing like a finished out of motion exercise, but indeed that's what I'm working on.

Same for the other aspects of the routine. I almost always do quite a bit of heeling in any training session, but will tend to focus on certain components like halts, turns, etc... and may not even do other components of the heeling pattern that day. I might be working on dumbbell holding by having the dog heel and come front holding the dumbbell, never doing an actual retrieve, or working on jumps for food/toy/praise with no dumbbell in the picture. When focusing on a specific element, I prefer to isolate it as much as possible so other aspects don't suffer because I'm not paying as much attention to those in that training session.

But even then I tend to pretty much follow the trial order for the most part. I might leave aspects of the routine out for that day if they aren't on my list of things to work on, so we might not do out of motions or retrieves or recalls. But any that I am working on are in order. I wouldn't do retrieves before out of motions. When I am working on out of motions, I always do them in order. If my plan for that day is to focus mainly on the stand, for example, and thus doing several stands I'll still do one sit and one down in motion before working on the stand. Same for the send out. It will always come after some form of retrieve, even if it's just a quick hold of the dumbbell and working a couple jumps outside of the retrieve sequence solely for the purpose of chaining the retrieves and send out together for the dog, with send out always coming last. I also always do a down stay at the end of training, and usually before, even if it's just a short one.

Since I do AKC/UKC obedience and rally too, sometimes aspects of those are thrown into a SchH training day. I might stand my dog and have someone do an exam, heel through some cones or other obstacles, do a long sit (always before a down stay, never before), make heeling through the group more figure 8 style, do recalls over the jump as a part of jump training instead of retrieve, or work random downs that help perfect both the drop on recall and the down at the end of the send out.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was not asking anyone in particular about the green dogs. Glad dor any discussion.

It seems to me that often there is an idea among rewardy trainers that they feel they must pay the dog frequently. I feel that can cause issues. Really, the dogs are not being asked to do terrible things. They can learn to perform without a ton of reward. Teaching a skill probably needs more reinforcement if used.

I had a WGSL female with less tgan optimal drive. Rewarding never did turn out to be the answer with her. She was good at avoidance. Once mature, she got correction and praise only. A different dog emerged in work. Once well establoshed, 
I added some reward in for general job well done. Never would have had the dog 
I did if I had relied on a lot of motivational work with her.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I had to re-train Nikon's heelwork because I went about it all wrong. I had no idea what I was doing (both the training methods and how this particular dog thinks/works) and impulsively jumped on toy luring bandwagon. So yeah the dog heeled really flashy and powerfully if here was a reward (or faked out) in the very near future but without it, and without a lot of "bringing up" the dog at the beginning, there was almost nothing there.

Pan is the kind of dog where the lure/reward stuff would actually work, and he will sit in heel position and load up even if you sit perfectly still for 10 minutes, but on the opposite end of the spectrum he has a low threshold for prey and I don't want a dog that is so easily overloaded. I *could* use a toy to pretty easily and quickly get that flashy Malinois eyes-in-the-armpit type heel but that's not really what I'm looking for (might look cool and score well with SchH but is not conducive to the other venues we train and with a large dog looks IMO ridiculous). Instead I'm starting to train his formal heel using a prong collar, using both actual corrections and sometimes pops, lots of praise, and then I pop out a toy more as a release than a lure. Since he's such a low threshold I just let him load up on his own and work at the level I'm looking for and when he responds to my corrections and praise, I release him to the toy and let him tug or carry it for a little bit.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Quote from Chris: "I think when people hear "training the routine/pattern" they are imagining going out and doing the trial routine, start to finish"

Don't you think this is a good idea getting ready for a trial? If you are preparing to trial then the dog knows all the exercises, what is needed is to tweak here and there. Ie. the dog needs more pressure here, less there etc. I don't understand how it is possible to do this outside of the routine.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As I said, yes I do the routine at least once, maybe more depending on the dog, prior to trial.

However I do not find the routine conducive to "tweaking". If individual components or pieces of exercises need to be tweaked I find it preferable to isloate those. If my dog is having trouble on the SIM for instance, doing one SIM inside of a routine every time we go out there is not the answer. And practicing the rest of the routine every time solely for the purpose of making sure the SIM is always within the same context it will be in trial I find unnecessary, a waste of time and energy, and possibly problematic. Rather I would focus on that particular portion that needed work, minimizing or maybe forgoing altogether those other aspects of the routine that are fine. Partly because I see little purpose in drilling something that is correct over and over again just for the sake of doing it or allowing my tweaking to fall within prescribed list of exercises, and with many dogs over drilling will lead to problems that didn't exist previously. And partly because the tweaking may well involve pressure and I don't want that carrying over to other exercises during that time, and again possibly causing problems that didn't exist in those previously. And lastly because many of the things that I would do to tweak a portion of an exercise don't bear much resemblance at all to the finished product of the routine and wouldn't fit well inside of it.

Then once whatever I'm tweaking has been tweaked, I would move it back into the rest of the routine. Though still would tend to work the routine in portions, sort of in a spirit of the routine way, not a letter of the routine way.

But no, I don't find going out and just doing the whole routine, over and over and over again, to have much benefit as far as training goes. Identifying what things need to be tweaked, yes. Doing the tweaking, no.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

See Chris, I just can't agree with this. I try to do all the training, as much as possible, inside the routine, especially going into a trial. If the SIM is not perfect then do it again, why would anyone only do it once if it isn't right. The big problem with what you are talking about is that every individual exercise affects the following exercise. If you only train individual exercises or small parts of the routine, then not only do you not know how it affects the next exercise, you also can not use that to your advantage.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Well, what's that saying about the only thing 2 trainers can agree on... 

I think this is a great discussion on how people approach training. I also don't think there is any one right way to do it, nor that everyone has to agree. Always good to learn about different ways of doing things, but in the end people find what works right for them.

Absolutely every exercise affects the next and things have to be put together at some point. Though I think people who know their dogs can get a good idea on what affects there will be at times. For example, if I'm really hammering a perfect front, I know my dog might get chewy on the DB when fronting on the retrieve due to the stress I've associated with the front. If I know that, why would I intentionally put the dog into a position where either the dog is being allowed to practice a bad behavior (mouthing) or where I'm going to be adding even more pressure in front and making the front a stressful place if I'm also getting after the dog for mouthing? Now potentially causing more problems in more exercises that have to be addressed.

I just personally don't find the routine conducive to most aspects of training. For seeing where we're at and how things come together, what I need to work on, and how each exercise affects the next with that dog, yes. For doing a lot of actual fixing, or initial training, no. 

I'd much rather isolate the front and fix whatever needs to be fixed, and most of my methods for teaching, fixing and tweaking don't fit within the routine very well and do work best in isolation anyway, and then once the issue is fixed put it back into the routine. For example, in the SIM example, I most likely would choose a way of working on that that was very different from "if not perfect do it again" until the dog gets it right. I'd fix it elsewhere, then bring it back into the routine.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Well, what's that saying about the only thing 2 trainers can agree on...


Actually, that quote is not quite accurate. Two trainers cannot even agree on what a third trainer is doing wrong. They can only agree that the third trainer IS doing it wrong and then the arguments start. 

Still, Art is making a good point. I could make the argument that you didn't train the exercises correctly if you have to go back and work on it. I know that one from experience...doing it wrong I mean. If the dogs are really trained right, the routine can/does make the dog even better. 

I will use my dog Whoopie as an example. Not only because I didn't breed her but because I did not do the initial training on her. Whoopie came here with an IPO 1 and I did the rest of her titles later. The previous trainer did a GREAT job of training her, although I will say we improved her protection, the obedience I can only take some credit for. I improved her by using what I talked about earlier using pressure and release in the routine. Because she had seen some pressure and it was so expertly done, she understood it, but, one thing she didn't know that well was to wait. Wait to be sent, wait to be finished, etc. When I put the routine together and worked on that aspect, (building the drive thru pressure in the routine and releasing it at the right time), what was a very fast and happy dog, became a rocket. The judges would laugh out loud at her retrieves, especially over the wall and her finishes. All of it put together made that dog into something really special. Yes, it was genetic too but the finishing touches of working the routine the right way, just made her that much better. 

You have to build up to the trial, where the dog is peaking when trial day comes. You cannot do that unless you use the routine and that pressure and release . I pulled Whoopie out four days before the Regionals a few years back because the dog I was training hurt herself. I entered her after six months off and four days of training. She looked OK, did all the exercises quickly etc but no where near as good as she could have looked if I had built up to the trial using what I talked about above.
She was not "tight" at all and the small mistakes piled up because of that.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Well Chris here is something to think about; you don't have to agree, but think about it. If your dog performs a perfect SIM in your "vacuum training" and then in the routine the SIM is slow; there are only two possible reasons. You either lack pressure or you are lacking motivation. How can this be fixed outside of the routine? It can't. You must make or maintain the pressure or motivation coming from the group to the SIM. Not something that can be done outside of the routine. 
If it were as simple as making each individual exercise perfect within a vacuum, then surely everyone would make 100 points on a frequent basis.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am not understanding at all how not training through the routine translates into training in a vacuum?

Are you now saying that there is pressure during trialing even though the handler can not correct the dog?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Anne, can you explain what you mean by using the wait with Whoopie? How is that part of the routine versus part of the exercise?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have to admit, the first time I heard the theory behind this, ( at least 30 years ago) , I was there scratching my head also. It is a part of the exercise but the exercises are part of the routine. I am not understanding why you guys seem so resistant to the idea. Don't just stare at that one aspect I talked about, there was more in what I said than that and maybe that's the point. Maybe people are looking at the tree and missing the forest? Seems people might understand how to teach an exercise but can't, ( or are not seeing), that you can take them and weave it all together to make it all tighter,faster more accurate by putting it all together in the routine....just like you do when you teach an exercise.

Just like the word compulsion starts that movie playing in people's heads, I guess the idea of working the routine is conjuring up images also. Most people can understand capping when they are teaching an exercise but can’t seem to take it beyond that, into the routine. Maybe that is one way to look at it. Each exercise has a number of components to it and you can use each one to build off the other. Then you take each exercise and build off the other. Does that make any sense at all to you? It's the same in protection where once the dog knows the components of the routine, you weave it all together and the result is there is more power and speed in how the dog performs . You can use the routine to make the performance better. Think about that for a minute or read what I wrote again without getting caught up on the one thing I said there. I actually thought about leaving that out because I had a feeling people would get hung up there, So give it less significance when you read what I wrote. This is something you have to kind of think about and let sit for a while. Later on it is a "oh that's what they meant" kind of thing.

A more important question is, why am I awake? It's 4 am .


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Samba said:


> I am not understanding at all how not training through the routine translates into training in a vacuum?
> 
> Are you now saying that there is pressure during trialing even though the handler can not correct the dog?


 Definition of "vacuum": State of isolation from outside influences 

If an exercise is performed by itself, isolated as some have said, then that exercise is being trained without being influenced by other exercises. Hence, it is being trained in a vacuum. 

As for your second question, I don't understand what you are asking. I am not talking about a trial, I am talking about training. I'll answer what I think you may be asking. The way that you keep pressure in a trial is that the dog doesn't know that it is a trial. A dog thinks the same rules apply. He is sure that you can reach over and grab him and correct him the same as normal.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Zahnburg said:


> Well Chris here is something to think about; you don't have to agree, but think about it. If your dog performs a perfect SIM in your "vacuum training" and then in the routine the SIM is slow; there are only two possible reasons. You either lack pressure or you are lacking motivation. How can this be fixed outside of the routine? It can't. You must make or maintain the pressure or motivation coming from the group to the SIM. Not something that can be done outside of the routine.


Well, again I think I need a definition of what you mean by "inside the routine" because when you say that I imagine a training session that always looks just like a trial with no variance.

To me, doing some heeling, coming out of a group and going into the SIM does not need to be done as part of a full routine. In other words it didn't need to be preceeded by heeling to the exact patterm, and followed by DIM, StIM, retrieves and send out. And if a slow SIM was the thing I'm working on in that training session, I probably wouldn't do all that other stuff and would focus on the SIM more in isolation. 

That doesn't mean that certain aspects of the routine wouldnt' be there. They would because they help cue the dog what is coming up and I have found that the biggest cause for a dog blowing an out of motion, responding slow, or assuming the wrong position is usually either 1) a dog getting mentally stuck in heeling mode and 2) not knowing what is coming up next or frequently a combination of both. So to work in it I would first make sure the dog is perfectly correct on the SIM in my "vacuum" because if the dog isn't then of course it isn't going to be in the routine. Once I am assured of a correct, fast response in isolation and have strengthened the dog's recognition and response to both verbal command and other certain cues, then I would expand that vacuum to include working on those two other common causes of the problem; getting stuck in heel mode and recognizing what the next exercise will be. And of course I would use certain certain parts of the routine to accomplish that. But not the whole routine itself on a regular basis.

Likewise, if my dog is starting to lag on rights or abouts, crowd on lefts, sit a bit slow or crooked at halt, I'm not going to go out and do a standard heeling pattern every time to keep it all "in the routine" because 2 abouts, 2 rights, 1 left and 1 halt is not sufficient for me to work on the problem. I'm going to isolate the problem, practice it and drill it a few different ways on it's own, then work it back into a longer heeling pattern. But even then that heeling pattern most days is probably going to be different from 50 paces out, about turn, 10-15 normal, 10-15 running, etc....


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Just wondering if Ann ever got some sleep-hope this thread didn't keep you up-on the plus side in New York it would have been 7 am


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Well, again I think I need a definition of what you mean by "inside the routine" because when you say that I imagine a training session that always looks just like a trial with no variance.
> 
> To me, doing some heeling, coming out of a group and going into the SIM does not need to be done as part of a full routine. In other words it didn't need to be preceeded by heeling to the exact patterm, and followed by DIM, StIM, retrieves and send out. And if a slow SIM was the thing I'm working on in that training session, I probably wouldn't do all that other stuff and would focus on the SIM more in isolation.
> 
> ...


Chris the more you explain the less sence your approach makes to me. 

The problems that you list as the two biggest (getting "stuck" and not knowing what is coming next) are caused by not doing the routine. If you come out of the group and set up the dog knows this is the SIM. It is always the SIM, so that easily eliminates those two problems that you are describing. 

Then you talk about problems in heeling and approach those problems as individual problems. In reality these are overall attitude problems. If the dog starts to do the things that you are talking about you need to ask why. And the answer is either there is too much pressure or too little pressure. Fix that and the heeling is fixed, and you can even do that in the standard heeling pattern.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I can understand the idea of the pressure and release, at least somewhat. In protection, the drive changes seem useful to the functioning as well as revealing. In obedience, I am having somewhat more difficulty but that is my issue, not the information.

I do understand it somewhat, I think. My female is feeling a lot of pressure in heeling currently. Working through that. When doing the recall afterward, it is likely to be more enthusiastic than when done in isolation.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Zahnburg said:


> Chris the more you explain the less sence your approach makes to me.


Well, all I can say is it makes sense to me and my dogs, and works well for us. And plenty of other folk, both SchH and very high level AKC ob, that I know who approach training much the same. <shrug>


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Perhaps if I only approached obedience from the SchH standpoint, with that as my only goal and wanting a dog who was so well drilled in the SchH pattern it could do it on autopilot without me, not caring if the dog understood any of this or was able to perform it at an equally high level outside of the context of the SchH routine, I'd be more inclined to do primarily pattern training. As I do need my dog to understand these things outside of that context and be able to perform them when there is a very different pattern, or no pattern or prescribed order of things at all, then I find constant pattern training detrimental. Not to mention no where near as much fun for either of us.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with Chris, though I probably do a bit more pattern training than her (but she's a better, more experienced trainer). If SchH is/was all I did, I'd focus much more on the pattern and how those specific exercises fit together. That may very well be the case with Pan, right now it's looking like he will be my "Schutzhund dog". But with my two other dogs, SchH is just one of half a dozen or even more things that we train and trial in. For me it is not so much about how much SchH pattern training to do but how to find the golden middle of training methods and training the exercises in such a way that they are correct and consistent across 3 or more types of obedience.

When I do work the pattern as it is in trial it is more about making sure that I've trained the dog to the level of maintaining the drive and energy I want throughout the entire routine and not training the dog to anticipate the next exercise. But, that is unique to the dog and the goals of the handler. If I had a dog with much more drive that loaded into drive and was easier to cap and work at a higher level, whether or not we can do the entire pattern at the same level of drive and intensity would not be a concern, in fact I might have the opposite problem where the dog is just loading up the whole time and might need to focus on keeping the dog under control.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I am sitting here trying to come up with a way to explain this so people will understand. I am sure that Art and I do not train exactly the same way, so, perhaps his way of doing this has a different twist to it. I view it as part of preparing the dog to trial. It is part of the progression to getting there. Chris may even be doing some of it without realizing it .

I guess you could look at it more like what Art just said. It is about the attitude and this way of working is more about the fuel, ( drive), then it is about correctness, although the correctness will be influenced by how much drive there is and vice versa. Maybe people think you can only get drive through play or prey work? 

If the dog is at the right drive level, everything works better. They are quick, correct and more accurate. For example, as someone who trains the heeling using corrections and praise, I can say that the pressure of the corrections fuels the attitude in the dog. Some seemed to understand that idea when the video of the woman heeling her Golden, and popping the leash, was shown. When I train heeling, I am taking that pressure and channeling into the overall attitude. The corrections, not simply the praise, brings drive. It is the same idea with the routine but where the pressure from some exercises provides fuel to the following exercises. I used Whoopie as an example because the exercises were trained so well and with some pressure. Then I took that , and the one aspect I talked about, and used it to make more pressure in the routine. The more that dog was made to wait, the more steam built up in the pot. Some of the stream escapes during certain exercises but because of the duration of them, like say a finish, not very much. So, over the course of those types of exercises like the SIM, DIM, the steam continues to build because there is no big release of it. Then the recall comes and there is that explosion of power and speed. Then back to the retrieves where the pressure is again, ( from the training), and afterwards, the send out. Think capping and release. I am having a hard time understanding why Chris is not getting this. Or Samba for that matter. It doesn't have much to do with the dog not being trained or only performing in the pattern. It is a case of the pattern fueling the exercises.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think I understand what you are saying, and I see this somewhat in my dog (especially what you said earlier about giving one good correction with a command...that sort of thing really SNAPS him to attention and gets him in "work mode", not overly conflicting or shutting him down). The problem for me lately is working up the build, making the dog understand when we are STILL working and when it is over. I honestly think this is a problem I have created based on how I initially trained. I don't think the dog is incapable of doing the routine without falling flat, but I think it's an issue of what I tried to say before, I haven't made the expectation clear enough, I haven't trained him to build up and then release because I was too sporadic with when/why the dog was rewarded. I think this problem was created when I initially used a toy to bring the dog "up", then sort of shaped/lured the heeling behaviors I wanted, but never very clearly marked the start and the end of the working behavior. For example, say I pop a ball out and whip it around, let the dog jump and miss it a few times, then pop it in my pocket and walk away and the dog starts heeling because he's had some foundation and knows that behavior is probably what I want. There's no clear command. I went to a seminar earlier this summer and didn't expect to do much obedience but the one thing that I agreed with is that at least with my dog I need to get back into a bit more pattern training, not always the *entire* pattern, but for example when we do formal heeling I need to get him in a sit focused on me, give a clear command, and then heel. Not all the dancing around with the toy, patting the dog's sides, praising him up and letting him choose to start heeling (and thus choose to stop). I have trouble capping the drive or having the dog load up as we do the exercises because he wasn't trained that way and I now need to communicate how the expectations have changed and that there will be a release after the build up. I think once it is more clear to him, he will be better overall, as in doing the trial pattern with more consistent intensity. Or maybe I'm way off base....

Anne as far as working up to the pattern, do you do it in any particular order? It was suggested to me to work it backwards and build from there, so start with a send out, then add retrieves, then out of motion, etc.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Anne, I do understand what you're saying and I do do what you're talking about with pressure in some exercises being built, then released in others. And also making the dog wait a bit for steam to build for an explosion. I do a bit of that with the way I handle certain exercises in trial too (such as waiting an extra second before sending the dog on a retrieve or send out, and tensing my body a bit more than normal just before giving the command to give a bit more steam).

But I see it as a part of trial prep, not 365 day a year obedience. Going into a trial I will focus my training more on what is needed for that trial, bringing pieces together into a more cohesive whole, doing things more in order and absolutely utilizing exercises building upon one another. But I don't do that every day, day in and day out. 

My responses thus far haven't been to you, but moreso to Art who, it seems to me anyway, is advocating pattern/routine training all the time, every time, not just getting ready for a trial, and who seems to think that any work with the dog that isn't done within the strict confines of the routine is pointless. Now I suppose if one trials enough in the same venue that pretty much every training session is trial prep, maybe that would be the way to go. For me that is not the case so most of my daily ob training is more generalized and far less trial like. Then it becomes more focused and trial like going into a trial, with sort of regular cycling of pressure and drive building and release of those to ideally have both attitude and correctness working in harmony and peaked on trial day. And trial prep for one venue is naturally going to look a bit different than trial prep for another venue.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Chris,

I thought the statement that I quoted and the questions I asked of that statement were quite explicit in dealing with preparing for a trial. However, that does lead to the question: If you are not training to prepare for a trial then what are you training for?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Furthermore, if you are training to show your dog in a different venue then you aren't really training schutzhund at that point, and this wouldn't really apply.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Quote from Chris: "Art who, it seems to me anyway, is advocating pattern/routine training all the time"

And yes, when I train I always do the routine, maybe not the exact heeling pattern (but usually). And this is because, to me, none of the exercises are independent. I can't just do DIM and recall then give the dog the ball and be done with it. The dog can't think that he might get the ball after the first recall or you lose the pressure that is needed for the stand. I could give him the ball and end it after the second recall, but at that point you are almost finished so you may as well do the dumbells and send out.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Zahnburg said:


> Chris,
> 
> I thought the statement that I quoted and the questions I asked of that statement were quite explicit in dealing with preparing for a trial. However, that does lead to the question: If you are not training to prepare for a trial then what are you training for?


Those two statements right there sort of highlight what lead to my confusion. It started as a discussion on trial prep and seemed to morph into a pattern train vs not in general. I do not see all training as trial prep. There is training toward the goal of trialing the dog, and then there is prepping the dog toward that trial and we all know there's a difference there.

And I still maintain that even within a trial prep scenario, I feel some things are better tweaked outside of the routine, then brought back into the routine. And I will continue to do so. Doesn't mean never training "inside the routine" as you phrase it, but doesn't require only training "inside the routine" either.



Zahnburg said:


> Furthermore, if you are training to show your dog in a different venue then you aren't really training schutzhund at that point, and this wouldn't really apply.


If doing multiple venues, it certainly does apply somewhat. At least if one of those venues is SchH. Just as all phases of SchH don't work in isolation, but can affect one another, the same would go for other venues. What happens in one will affect the other, particularly with regard to similar exercises. And if someone is going to do multiple venues, knowing how trial prep in one could affect performance in the other and taking that into account is a pretty good idea. Especially trialing across multiple venues (one being SchH) in a very short period of time.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

So let me ask you this, Art.
I'm going to pick one of the more complicated exercises, let's say the retrieve over the jump, because it works better for illustration purposes.

I assume like everyone else, you taught this as separate components.. the hold, the pick up, coming front with the dumbbell, and jumping. Then later once the dog was proficient in each, they were chained together to make for the whole retrieve exercise.

Now the dog develops an issue with one of those parts of the exercise. Maybe mouthing the dumbbell. Or not jumping cleanly. Or not picking up cleanly, maybe pouncing on the dumbbell or running past and picking up on the return. Everything else is fine, there's just one or two parts of the retrieve exercise that are problematic.

How would you deal with that? Would you not isolate that particular part and work the hold, or the pick up, or the jumping technique separately and then go back to doing the full exercise?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

We are all training for a routine unless we participate in extemporaneous freestyle shows.

So the exrcises in the routine do determine the training.

Yesterday, I worked on entering, taking off the leash and setting up. I want the dog well trained with expected behaviors even in the minutia as none of it is minutia to the dog snd it all goes together. I don't think I would ever get done if I worked on each thing through the entire routine.

Drive and attention do affect precision to a large degree. Grt those two things and everything else is easier.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

Zahnburg said:


> Quote from Chris: "Art who, it seems to me anyway, is advocating pattern/routine training all the time"
> 
> And yes, when I train I always do the routine, maybe not the exact heeling pattern (but usually). And this is because, to me, none of the exercises are independent. I can't just do DIM and recall then give the dog the ball and be done with it. The dog can't think that he might get the ball after the first recall or you lose the pressure that is needed for the stand. I could give him the ball and end it after the second recall, but at that point you are almost finished so you may as well do the dumbells and send out.


I've seen dogs trained this way, day in and day out running the full routine, three four five times week, never a change never a break.

They generally look like ****, maybe not right away or even after a few months but sooner or later they start to look bad. Either they get bored and don't show the drive and precision necessary for a good score or they can't function outside the confines of the routine and in general life look like they have had no training at all. Also you see multiple small faults building up into blown heeling patterns and failed or refused retrieves.

There is no "might as well" in good dog training, you are either rewarding the correct behavior (as opposed to the incorrect one the dog had been showing) or you are simply teaching the dog that either is good enough as modifying and improving his performance doesn't result in a reward.



If you have something to fix, you fix it, you don't keep repeating everything that is perfect for the sake of repetition just to get to the broken part. Are you really going to risk messing up a 98 point routine by multiple repetition just to work on the 2 points you missed? I'm sure not.

The routine is like a car engine, if a part breaks you remove it from the engine, fix it, and put it back in. That way the routine is built of working parts and can be developed and _tuned_ like a car engine (I think this is what Anne is referring to) to build that perfect harmonious thundering whole. You don't try to fix it while running, having the broken part keep going *clunk* and bang, possibly damaging the rest of the things it comes in contact with. At the same time you don't take all the parts throw them together on race day and expect to have a well tuned or even working engine.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

@ Chris.

No, I would try to fix it in the routine. If the dog suddenly starts mouthing the dumbell I would ask why is this? Since I teach "hold" with pressure I would think it is because I am losing pressure in the front. Now why am I losing pressure? Maybe I give the dog the ball often from this position so the dog is thinking "ball" instead of "hold" easy solution, stop with the ball there. Or maybe the dog just needs a friendly reminder, maybe a short tab on the collar so when the dog is front I can slightly choke him and tell him hold or with a little electric and tell him hold. 

Now the pick-up is more of a mechanical component, the dog has to stop, pick-up the dumbell and turn around. So there are a couple things I could try. I could have someone slightly kick the dumbell towards the dog as he is about to get to it or maybe I have a long line on the dog and just before he gets to the dumbell he gets a hard check. Either way will get the desired result.

Clean jumping is a little trickier and really depends on why the dog isn't jumping cleanly, if it is just because of mechanics I would put bars exteding out from the jump to make the dog have to jump better. If it is because the dog was injured badly at some point on the jump then I may have to eliminate some of the pressure for a while at the jump.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Wildtim said:


> Are you really going to risk messing up a 98 point routine by multiple repetition just to work on the 2 points you missed? I'm sure not.


What's interesting, having trained with a few people who were regularly at the level where that 1 or 2 points made a huge difference and thus did decide to spend a lot of time working on that minutia, did it by isolating that particular part. I will never forget the utter boredom of watching one dog do the same thing, over and over and over again in training for an entire summer to eek out 1 or 2 more points in one particular exercise. The dog did little else for months. Then a couple months leading up to the Nationals, everything was brought together again into a routine. And apparently it worked as the couple points lost for that error in the previous year's Nationals weren't lost that next year. That didn't happen by working the whole routine over and over again from start to finish for months, but rather by focusing on that particular aspect and giving the others an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" hiatus.

I'm not nearly anal enough to go to that extreme, but still feel for many things working in that vaccuum for a while, not forever, certainly helps. Clearly either will work and neither way of approaching it is a key to success or doom, so again I guess it just boils down to people doing what works for them.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Zahnburg said:


> @ Chris.
> 
> No, I would try to fix it in the routine. If the dog suddenly starts mouthing the dumbell I would ask why is this? Since I teach "hold" with pressure I would think it is because I am losing pressure in the front. Now why am I losing pressure? Maybe I give the dog the ball often from this position so the dog is thinking "ball" instead of "hold" easy solution, stop with the ball there. Or maybe the dog just needs a friendly reminder, maybe a short tab on the collar so when the dog is front I can slightly choke him and tell him hold or with a little electric and tell him hold.
> 
> ...


 
Perfectly common, legitimate ways to address those issues, certainly.

But now perhaps the dog who used to go out fast and jump cleanly slows in his go out or jumps sloppy due to expecting the hard check when he reaches the dumbbell. Or the dog who used to return fast and sit close and straight in front starts returning slowly, or sitting farther away or slightly crooked, in response to increased pressure in front for the hold. And the fixing of the one problem can lead to the creation of another that didn't exist previously. 

Myself, I'd work the hold, or jump or pick up separately for a while until the dog is performing it absolutely correctly every time, in a variety of situations, some of which are more difficult than what the trial routine prescribes or where the dog has been set up to potentially make a mistake. Then bring it back into the whole exercise. Then if I do have to get after my dog for that particular fault within the full exercise, the recent reminder training makes it more clear to the dog exactly what is required and where the dog messed up and how to correct it, with less chance of carry over into other parts of the exercise.

Certainly not saying my more "isolationist" approach is the only successful way to go about it. But neither is doing it just within the routine.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> If you have something to fix, you fix it, you don't keep repeating everything that is perfect for the sake of repetition just to get to the broken part. Are you really going to risk messing up a 98 point routine by multiple repetition just to work on the 2 points you missed? I'm sure not.
> 
> 
> Myself, I'd work the hold, or jump or pick up separately for a while until the dog is performing it absolutely correctly every time, in a variety of situations, some of which are more difficult that within the trial routine or where the dog has been set up to potentially make a mistake. Then bring it back into the whole exercise.


I think this may be a case of how people look at things. Because you apply pressure in one exercise, does not mean it will automatically ruin the exercises following it. It can actually make the following exercise better. Maybe some of you remember that thread that Art, ( who else? lol), started about the send out and pressure. During that conversation, we talked about teaching the FR and then immediately after, doing a send out. The stress and pressure from training the retrieve, was channeled into the send out. I have done that more than once and I can say that it really sets a behavior in the dog when you do that. 
So, if you are thinking along those lines, what Art is saying can work. If you are someone who punishes a dog with corrections or thinks that a dog should view a correction as punishment, then yeah, I guess you could make a mess of the routine if that's how you do things. I don't often find myself retraining something all of a sudden....unless, I screwed it up in the first place. If I am simply tweaking it, the dog will most likely be feeling some pressure there, we get it adjusted and I move on as usual with a few more exercises, and then end the session. I will usually use the pressure created while tweaking, to fuel the exercise that ends the session. It doesn't have to be a case where the dog is rewarded for doing it right by ending the training session just as he does that one part of the exercise. I think we have covered that already with the too much reward given for too little effort from the dog. You have to keep building the dog..... in my opinion.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Wildtim said:


> If you have something to fix, you fix it, you don't keep repeating everything that is perfect for the sake of repetition just to get to the broken part. Are you really going to risk messing up a 98 point routine by multiple repetition just to work on the 2 points you missed? I'm sure not.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

If the whole routine is perfect then I would be getting 100 points every time. I'm not, so there is something to be perfected, always. 

The dog doesn't get rewarded for being normal he is getting rewarded for achieving something new, for getting better, for improvement.

I guess I just haven't met the dog yet that who didn't get worse with many many repetitions when they were already giving 100% in that area. Once something is perfect, move on, next exercise.

Where did anyone get the idea that reward ends the session, or even interrupts it significantly, or is a ball? 

I guess we do view training so differently there isn't any common ground.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Wildtim said:


> If the whole routine is perfect then I would be getting 100 points every time. I'm not, so there is something to be perfected, always.
> 
> The dog doesn't get rewarded for being normal he is getting rewarded for achieving something new, for getting better, for improvement.
> 
> ...


Perfect does not equal 100 points! Perfect is what you will accept from that particular dog. Any exercise that the dog does is either 100% correct or 100% wrong, if the down is a little slow but you will accept it then it is 100% correct.

You say "Once something is perfect, move on, next exercise" I'm saying the same thing, if the heeling is perfect today move on to SIM, if SIM is perfect move onto DIM etc.,etc. If something is not perfect it is corrected, when it is perfect next exercise.

I have met many dogs that are worked routine,routine,routine that successfully show at the world level. 

I am certain we view training differently. When I first started the sport I may have have had the same views that you do, not so much anymore.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think there is quite a difference in one's view of "perfection". Having been a competitive gymnast, to me "perfection" is absolutely not normal (shouldn't be) or simply the best that one can do. Perfection is something that when anyone sees it - no matter what they previously liked or their experience level - they just know it is so completely faultless and also above and beyond anything before and likely to follow. So, when training my dogs I guess I am tainted by my previous understanding of "perfection". I don't want every dog to be "perfect" when he's just doing the best he can because I want there to always be amazing dogs that stand out on their own, even if those are never my dogs.

FWIW as a gymnast I forced myself to do ten routines ("sets") in a row each day before a big meet


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was reminded at training tonight, that we have been taught this concept as drive-control approach when training. We don't necessarily do it in the context of the routine because it is not set up as SchH is.

Hogan does not enjoy being gone over by a stranger in a formal context. Really, who are these people to give him a going over!? Tonight we worked at desensitizing him to that procedure. That was a bit of pressure for him as he had to take that offense and maintain focus on me. There was some pressure in that work. The next thing I did involved big activity and running in the exercise. It seems natural that one would not heap pressure upon pressure or waste drive upon drive. Nice the routine is set up that way, others have to do it themselves in the training sessions.

Did stays with an amount of pressure...other dog getting treats next to them, toys being kicked about in front. Some pressure in this and control. Next exercise, recalls. But, this is not the order of the routine.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Wildtim said:


> Where did anyone get the idea that reward ends the session, or even interrupts it significantly, or is a ball?


 I don't think anyone has this idea. I certainly release my dog within the session and then get back to work.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Depends on what they are doing well, what needs work, what needs work but just ain't happening today... I have an idea what I'm going to work on when I step on the field, but it changes based on the performance.


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## ltsgsd (Jan 31, 2009)

Castlemaid, I have to disagree with a statement made. One person who had gone on the very high levels who soley pattern trains is Gottfried Dildea. There are pluses and minuses to any train ing method. One way cannot be used on all dogs. If a person who has a good solid method with alterations based on what the dog needs will be successful. I train each part seperately and when I am closer to trial (weeks out) I start pattern training. It brings consistency to the dog. I work with athletes in Sportmedicine. If they work patterns all the time to get it perfect it makes sense a dog can do it as well. It is up to us to build and keeep the drive throughout the routine with the dog no matter how one trains.


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