# Trying to understand aggressive dog



## Benevolence (Nov 12, 2012)

Hi all, this was about my Belgian Malinois that I got from a reputable breeder in the US. I ended up putting him down just under 10 months old, I realize people may judge me for it, but I believe it was the best thing that could be done. I’m writing this to describe what I did to raise him and hoping that someone could either point out where I went wrong or confirm that he had some brain issues.



I got him at 8 weeks, and did puppy socials (controlled at humane society, with breaks every 5 minutes and we separated with treats/distractions when overstimulated) until 16 weeks as well as puppy obedience and one-on-one training. I had only used positive reinforcement and clicker training and he got 3+ hours of fairly intense exercise (fetch, tug, dog park, running) and several 15 minute training sessions each day. It’s hard to really describe how much attention, time, exercise and love I gave him. He was a very smart and kind dog in so many ways.

He displayed, even at 10 weeks, a ‘snap’ in behavior where he would be happy and playful then turn to relentless biting. I could see the signs of it literally less than 2 seconds before it happened; happy then he would close his mouth, get still and side-eyed and lick his snout. This was somewhat rare to start but it became associated typically with girls/women but not limited to that by any means. It was always when he would be getting pet by someone and they would stop, he would typically lunge for a hand.

I socialized him with other dogs, and people; but perhaps too much. At 10 weeks I started introducing him to plenty of people during walks and potty breaks when I brought him into my office at school. Getting lifted up by anyone but me would prompt a tantrum so that ceased; however we reintroduced it slowly with treats for slowly being picked up but never fully allowed anyone else to pick him up. Anytime he would get overstimulated or have to be removed from a scenario, he would bite at anyone/dog he could.

The final incident was when I got back home from a summer internship. Before the summer I was living with my parents and my mom had helped raise him. Two nights back, he was getting pet by my mom; she was down at his level, head next to head and scratching his neck/ears as he always loved. I was sitting a foot away and saw his demeanor change as previously described and he went for my mom’s neck. I wasn’t able to do or say anything before it happened and he had so many great interactions with my mom and he seemed to be improving. I was able to get him off in an instant but she still had to go to the ER and got numerous stitches and he ripped her earring out. I took him to the emergency vet and put him down that night and did the post-mortem rabies test. Prior incidences weren’t a bite; they were mouthing and lunging but not biting down like he did.

I guess I’m wondering if it’s just that he was dealt a bad hand? He had a somewhat larger head than his siblings and I wonder in retrospect if it was a tumor; I’ve heard about that age is when brain tumors can exhibit behavioral changes? Did I overly stimulate him? I guess it’s really hard to describe; I raised him in a loving environment that should have made him confident, but he seemed to have a downright evil side to him. I suspect most will suggest fear aggression based upon afraid of being over handled. He had quite good ‘bite sense’ of not chomping down too hard when playing with humans or dogs.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

you’ve said a lot and i’m sorry for your loss as well as what your mom had to endure, but this really isn’t enough info.

why’d you choose the breed, what’s your experience level and/or previous exposure to the breed, where was he acquired, what’s his pedigree, what type of professional breed specific guidance did you have, did the breeder have an opinion at any point, were they contacted?

i mean, there are many things that i wonder about.... why did strangers need to pick up your puppy? what does “seemed to be improving” with your mom mean? it doesn’t sound like a dog she should have been head to head with...

again - too many unknown factors.

he was a handsome guy.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

@Benevolence

IMO, with the limited info, this was waaaay too much dog for you. If this was a reputable breeder not sure why they placed this pup with you.

I don't blame the dog...sounds like an excellent dog. This is another case of lack of leadership position and a dog not matched to the skill/experience of handler.

Further, you used only positive training with no corrections.

Sorry to tell you, this is not the dogs fault.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What Fodder said.

I am not sure why your mother felt a need to get down and in the face of a problem dog. Her being bit is not the least bit surprising and is not uncommon among dogs of any breed. There is a reason that people tell you to never put your face in a dog's face. Nothing new about that piece of advice. 

And really not sure why you felt that other people need to pick up your dog. Once again, I would have to say that your dog's response was normal dog behavior. I can see where a dog would react badly and bite.

I had an acquaintance that was a Chihuahua person. Sometimes she stunned me with bits of valuable dog knowledge that I did not expect from someone that is not a dog nerd. Anyhow, she once explained to me that Chihuahuas were often little poopheads and aggressive with people because people were always trying to pick them up and that the Chis essentially felt that they had no control of their bodies and this created the aggression. I have no clue whether that is true or not, but I can easily see where endless random people trying to pick anyone of my dogs up would provoke an aggressive act of some kind.

I am really not reading anything odd or aggressive from the information that you have provided. If anything, I am reading a mismatch of breed vs your expectations.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I’ve read your post again and just wanted to add that I also don’t take away any signs of fear aggression just from what you’ve described.

If you look at it this way... person picks up puppy, puppy doesn’t want to be held so he throws tantrum, person puts down puppy, puppy wins. tantrums work.

Said puppy gets a little older... (and I’m assuming...) gets overstimulated and rowdy at the dog park, you step in to control the situation, grab puppy by the collar, puppy acts out by lunging and snapping and being a jerk because this has worked in the past.

Agree with the poster that mentioned lack of leadership... it’s a strong and intelligent breed - many of the well bred ones aren’t suited for novice handlers and wouldn’t thrive in most pet homes. Their popularity is increasing however... resulting in a lot of unstable dogs, calm/soft/easy going dogs (watered down for the pet market), or good dogs that are “too much” dog for where they end up.


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## Benevolence (Nov 12, 2012)

I’ll try to not be defensive about this and I appreciate the input. To clarify, in the incident, my mom was sitting down petting the dog, not picking him up or any inclination of it. She spent many hours training and raising him as well. She had worked with obedience with him and had pet him like that countless times. We were trying to get him to be stable and social around people and dogs before introducing any bite work or more advanced training. 

Perhaps I didnt explain the ‘picking up’ thing correctly, that was noticed and stopped by 12 weeks; I didn’t treat him like a toy dog. Sometimes it was needed for potty training or to remove him from a situation that was not his fault. He would run up and sit in our laps any chance he got. He also did really well with other dogs and was able to play in a respectful way. I didn’t ‘let him loose’ at the dog park, I found individual dogs for him to socialize and play with in an effort to not have him be dog aggressive. I did correct him and I didn’t let his aggression change the outcome in individual events. 

My intentions with him were to do agility and schutzhund and see where he worked best. He also needed to be a dog in the family first; I don’t think that was asking too much, plenty of the dogs out of the litter and others from the breeder were working and stayed in a family, while some were in police work. I had the pedigree for the past 4 generations saw the health tests. I also visited the breeder’s place; plenty of well socialized dogs. 

I realize the culture of this forum is to blame the owner first, and I understand. I did try to do my research and spent several years researching breeders and training techniques (obedience and working). I’ve watched countless videos and read books on training as well as worked with 3 trainers with him. We’ve had Akitas, Collies, border collies, cockers, GSD, Weimaraner. I’ve done obedience training with them. We’ve had extremely fearful dogs from rescues that we’ve worked with and I have experienced fear aggression several times and worked through it. 

I guess it comes down to a dog biting a person without doing anything to trigger it that I could see and I was asking if people had input on specific things that I could have done better. In retrospect, I feel stupid for allowing that situation to be possible but anything before had clear triggers that I could associate with and learn to avoid or work to improve upon.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

Benevolence said:


> I’ll try to not be defensive about this and I appreciate the input. To clarify, in the incident, my mom was sitting down petting the dog, not picking him up or any inclination of it. She spent many hours training and raising him as well. She had worked with obedience with him and had pet him like that countless times. We were trying to get him to be stable and social around people and dogs before introducing any bite work or more advanced training.
> 
> Perhaps I didnt explain the ‘picking up’ thing correctly, that was noticed and stopped by 12 weeks; I didn’t treat him like a toy dog. Sometimes it was needed for potty training or to remove him from a situation that was not his fault. He would run up and sit in our laps any chance he got. He also did really well with other dogs and was able to play in a respectful way. I didn’t ‘let him loose’ at the dog park, I found individual dogs for him to socialize and play with in an effort to not have him be dog aggressive. I did correct him and I didn’t let his aggression change the outcome in individual events.
> 
> ...


You may not have seen the dog's signs and you may not understand your dog's triggers. However, something triggered him.

Positive only training is NOT good... especially for strong dogs. Look for balanced training. Establishing leadership is THE most important thing. All dogs should be raised as if they have the potential for handler aggression.
Your dog was just starting to mature and show his real self.

I am not trying to rag on you. It is, what it is. And it is almost ALWAYS not the dogs fault but rather the humans.

The sooner people start taking personal responsibility the sooner there will be less dogs sent to shelters or put down.










Dealing with the Dominant Dog


Very few dogs are truly dominant. We feel the vast majority of the people who need help with their dogs don't have dominant dogs but rather they have dogs that have never learned rules. For lack of a better description, these are dogs that have never learned




leerburg.com





*"We feel the vast majority of the people who email us don't have dominant dogs but rather they have dogs that have never learned rules. For lack of a better description I call them dogs that have never learned 'pack structure rules'."*









Dealing with the Dominant Dog


Very few dogs are truly dominant. We feel the vast majority of the people who need help with their dogs don't have dominant dogs but rather they have dogs that have never learned rules. For lack of a better description, these are dogs that have never learned




leerburg.com


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Benevolence said:


> I’ll try to not be defensive about this and I appreciate the input. To clarify, in the incident, my mom was sitting down petting the dog, not picking him up or any inclination of it. She spent many hours training and raising him as well. She had worked with obedience with him and had pet him like that countless times. We were trying to get him to be stable and social around people and dogs before introducing any bite work or more advanced training.
> 
> Perhaps I didnt explain the ‘picking up’ thing correctly, that was noticed and stopped by 12 weeks; I didn’t treat him like a toy dog. Sometimes it was needed for potty training or to remove him from a situation that was not his fault. He would run up and sit in our laps any chance he got. He also did really well with other dogs and was able to play in a respectful way. I didn’t ‘let him loose’ at the dog park, I found individual dogs for him to socialize and play with in an effort to not have him be dog aggressive. I did correct him and I didn’t let his aggression change the outcome in individual events.
> 
> ...


I don't think this is a healthy or productive path to go down. We don't know you, don't know your dog and didn't see the behaviors. I'm sorry for you, your mom and the dog. It sounds like maybe you weren't properly coached in your training. It sounds like maybe a lot of dog for you. It sounds like maybe the breeder over estimated your ability.
What did your vet think? Or your trainers?
Playing this what if game is not a good choice. What's done is done and we live with it, learn from it and carry on.


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## Benevolence (Nov 12, 2012)

Fair enough, I suppose it’s hard to describe enough for an unbiased perspective on the situation, training, and his life. Trainers thought that was an unprovoked situation and sometimes it’s a bit of a roll of the dice. I suppose I was/am frustrated because the exact thing I tried to plan to not happen, did happen. I feel that I put in the effort and was proactive but it didn’t work out, meanwhile, I feel that others with BMs did much less work but had fine dogs that did great in families. I’ll let it go. 

Thanks RT. That does make sense.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

Benevolence said:


> Fair enough, I suppose it’s hard to describe enough for an unbiased perspective on the situation, training, and his life. Trainers thought that was an unprovoked situation and sometimes it’s a bit of a roll of the dice. I suppose I was/am frustrated because the exact thing I tried to plan to not happen, did happen. I feel that I put in the effort and was proactive but it didn’t work out, meanwhile, *I feel that others with BMs did much less work but had fine dogs that did great in families*. I’ll let it go.
> 
> Thanks RT. That does make sense.


" I feel that others with BMs did much less work but had fine dogs that did great in families."

Maybe you had the best dog 

Seriously though, you must feel terrible about this and I'm sorry for your loss.

One thing I have learned (and I'm no pro- actually you could call me a newbie), is that even many so called trainers don't know jack about dogs - Victoria Stillwell is one

btw ... I do own a, genetically, handler aggressive dog with dominant traits, and they require more knowledge (not rocket science though) ... but they make the best dogs IMO


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

There used to be a police K9 officer who posted fairly frequently on his forum, who had a BM police dog no other officer wanted due to his handler aggression. When frustrated, he would turn and bite his handler. Eventually, the officer was able to figure out how to correct this (sorry, I forget the details!) and make an excellent patrol dog out of him.

If anyone can help dig up those old threads, it may give the OP some understanding of what was going on with his dog.

BM's bite...a LOT! It's part of the breed. They can be a LOT of dog. Strong breeds do need balanced training, with corrections. They are not for everyone, and has been said above, many trainers do not understand how to work with them.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

A dog out of a litter with police dogs in it doesn't belong in an inexperienced home. Period.

The level of drive and willingness to bite in a good police dog is something that most people have never experienced. Your mom shouldn't have been near his gave if she was unable to see the same signs you had picked up.

These are not pet dogs. They require experience just to handle, let alone raise and properly socialize. They are as smart as any breed and have natural instincts towards dealing with any situation using their mouth.

No one here can say for sure that your dog did or didn't have neurological problems.

I'm sorry for your loss and the trauma your mother experienced. If you choose to get another working dog to keep as a pet, I suggest you get heavily involved in a club, before you get the dog, and learn about handling them.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

David Winners said:


> *These are not pet dogs. *They require experience just to handle, let alone raise and properly socialize.


But see, this is part of the problem because they _are_ becoming pet dogs.

Lately I’ve been coming across these relatively calm, easy going, manageable BM’s and hearing comments from first time dog owners like “S/he is so much easier than I was expecting” or people describing their dogs as high drive / high energy when what I’m observing is relatively low for the breed... etc, because people have happened upon these easier dogs that have been watered down for the pet market. This creates the illusion that they’re suitable for pet homes with just “a little more work” than a Lab.

So, to go about things the right way... you look for a reputable breeder (not realizing that someone breeding to standard is not breeding the dogs you see in your neighborhood Petsmart classes). This is where I feel like we depend on the breeders to keep these dogs in the right hands. But, we all know how well that’s worked out with the GSD.

I found a stray Mal in 2006, turned him in to the pound but wanted to reach out to a breed specific rescue to give them a heads up... Google turned up 0 results. Oh how times have changed, California is now considered a hot spot.

OP, Just to be clear, I’m not directing any of my opinions at or saying that they apply to you or your experience... I understand that it’s a sensitive topic, these have just been my observations in my area, which may or may not be relevant, but nonetheless an additional perspective. I too have gotten in over my head and made mistakes too - we all start somewhere. I can only dream of how lovely my first GSD would have been if I had her now and not 20yrs ago.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> There used to be a police K9 officer who posted fairly frequently on his forum, who had a BM police dog no other officer wanted due to his handler aggression. When frustrated, he would turn and bite his handler. Eventually, the officer was able to figure out how to correct this (sorry, I forget the details!) and make an excellent patrol dog out of him.
> 
> If anyone can help dig up those old threads, it may give the OP some understanding of what was going on with his dog.
> 
> BM's bite...a LOT! It's part of the breed. They can be a LOT of dog. Strong breeds do need balanced training, with corrections. They are not for everyone, and has been said above, many trainers do not understand how to work with them.


This one?








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Here is my new K-9 Partner "Boru." Named after the legendary King of Ireland, Brian Boru. I mentioned that I had the opportunity to get a very nice dog that wasn't working out with his team mates. Boru is a KNPV titled Belgian Malinois X Dutch Shepherd tested, selected and imported in...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, that's the one, Nigel! Thank you!


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## Benevolence (Nov 12, 2012)

I realize this is getting further from the original topic. His specific parents weren’t putting out police dogs. When we were working on training, he was extremely intense and focused. I was quite proud of where we got at such a young age and I put in an immense amount of time into training him. It seems that a breed/dog should be able to recognize very basic situations he has been in and when not try to kill someone. There were no triggers, just the change in behavior I saw that would occur once in a very rare occasion and I would only see the sign a second beforehand. Almost always he initiated social contact and was very pleasant and playful. The behavior change without a trigger was why I thought a mental issue and why I started this thread; to see if that had been observed in other scenarios. In retrospect it was stupid to allow the scenario to be possible after seeing the instance the first time, but I thought the work with trainers fixed it. 

Meanwhile, the numerous ‘firm/alpha’ trainers that push firm correction, that I avoided, had GSD’s of their own that were so fear aggressive/resource guarding that you couldn’t acknowledge the dog until you had been in their house for 30 minutes. They were telling me to alpha role the puppy at 8 weeks and I nope’d out of those situations.

He was put down last August, and I was just revisiting the topic in my mind because I thought maybe I could come at it with a bit more clarity. I now have, through a relationship, a GSD that is one of the most intelligent and sweet dogs I’ve ever met. I guess I’ll end my posting there and try to learn more.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Benevolence, you were right to 'nope' out of those classes that told you to alpha roll your pup at 8 weeks! Ugggh...sorry to hear there are still trainers out there that do that!

Corrections should NOT be abusive! They can be as simple as a firm 'NO' or a gentle correction with the leash.

I rescued a GSD that sounds a bit like your mal. She was dog aggressive, and would be wanting to play with the dog one minute, then in a flash, something would change, and she'd attack. You'd have about 2 seconds warning before it happened. I was told by several trainers that she COULD be fixed, but it would take time and more money that I had to spare. One of them said she was just the sort of GSD he'd want - she had no 'quit' to her when she felt threatened by another dog. (No, he didn't offer to take her off my hands, though I gladly would have given her to him!  )

She escaped from her enclosure one day, when a gate didn't close properly, and killed a small dog. I had her put down. It just wasn't worth the risk. 

It's hard to judge a situation from a distance, but it could be you made the right decision. Assuming this dog COULD be 'fixed' it was not something that you were able to do. This dog needed a very experienced trained that understood just what was going on with him, and it would have been wrong for you to pass the dog on to someone who didn't have the right skill set, knowing he could seriously hurt someone.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Benevolence said:


> It seems that a breed/dog should be able to recognize very basic situations he has been in and when not try to kill someone.


My 2 cents...

You are absolutely right! A stable dog, a dog that is good for military or police work included!, would/should never ever do something like this!

You were ABSOLUTELY right to put the dog down IMMEDIATELY!



David Winners said:


> A dog out of a litter with police dogs in it doesn't belong in an inexperienced home. Period.
> 
> The level of drive and willingness to bite in a good police dog is something that most people have never experienced. Your mom shouldn't have been near his gave if she was unable to see the same signs you had picked up.


David, willingness yes, but this was just bad genetics! Even a hard ass dog, hard dog, or real dog, as some talk about, should not EVER turn and injure a family member without some sort of provocation! 

No, this was was an unstable dog. END Of both, dog (correctly!), and problem!

I have worked with a few "hard" dogs who will, in an excited state, bite at me. It's all good, that's understandable!

But a dog that attacks someone they they know well??? For stopping petting, or some other minor thing?

That's unstable, and putting this dog down was the right decision!!!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

A good friend of mine, did 8 tours in Iraq and Afghanistan working dogs...all Malinois.

He fell in love with the breed, so that's what he wanted when he got home.

He told me, "you know how you see all of these videos of a person in coveralls running through a Malinois puppy area, and the puppies all latch on to him? He said, "I picked the one puppy that didn't"!!!

There you have it!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The sudden change in demeanor sounds like the dog could have had rage syndrome.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> My 2 cents...
> 
> You are absolutely right! A stable dog, a dog that is good for military or police work included!, would/should never ever do something like this!
> 
> ...


Tim, I don't care what the breed, many stable and well balanced dogs perceive face to face contact, eye to eye contact, or hovering from above as a challenge or threat. The bite was not unprovoked. The perceived relationship between the mother and the dog appears to be the problem. 

We have no idea if this dog was presenting with signs of stress or discomfort. He could have stiffened, whale eyed, licked his lips, turned his head away, etc., and all of the signs could have been ignored. I suspect all of the warning signs were there at the moment and probably had been demonstrated in the past and were either unrecognized or dismissed.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Tim, I don't care what the breed, many stable and well balanced dogs perceive face to face contact, eye to eye contact, or hovering from above as a challenge or threat. The bite was not unprovoked. The perceived relationship between the mother and the dog appears to be the problem.
> 
> We have no idea if this dog was presenting with signs of stress or discomfort. He could have stiffened, whale eyed, licked his lips, turned his head away, etc., and all of the signs could have been ignored. I suspect all of the warning signs were there at the moment and probably had been demonstrated in the past and were either unrecognized or dismissed.


All those things "could" be, or not, that's true. But, I think that dog's actions are not what I'd expect of a stable, well bred dog! 

Malinois are good dogs! Even the hard ones should have more discernment! IMHO...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> All those things "could" be, or not, that's true. But, I think that dog's actions are not what I'd expect of a stable, well bred dog!
> 
> Malinois are good dogs! Even the hard ones should have more discernment! IMHO...
> This dog is starting to mature. It's warning signs had been dismissed in the past. This time, the dog said "not this time". It really isn't much different than a puppy or dog being teased over time and finally saying enough and defending itself. Would you fault a dog that was being physically abused that finally lashes out?


Would you call a dog unstable if it were being physically abused by a known person if it ultimately lashes out? If you wouldn't, why would you fault a dog for mental and emotional abuse that lashes out? 

Somehow I have no doubt that this was not the first time that the woman did this to the dog and I would bet there were a ton of warning signs each time it was done increasing progressively until this time when the dog said: oh, no, not this time you don't. 

IMO, that is not a sign of an unstable dog but an uninformed owner.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If you wouldn't, why would you fault a dog for mental and emotional abuse that lashes out?


I guess I missed that...where, exactly in the OP's description of events did you see mental and/or emotional abuse?

Sorry, for me, biting Mom in the neck such that she needed stitches is enough.

Mainly though, I don't want people reading this thread to think that Mals are crazed killers that have to be handled by highly trained individuals wearing protective gear LOL!

They are good dogs. Raising one is not something the "average" pet owner should do, but the "average" pet owner IMHO should stick to goldfish, and not raise any dog! 

Again, just MHO!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

ok, enough... opinions have been offered based on the information and attempts at clarification that was provided by the OP, let’s discontinue with the assumptions, etc and go back to providing support or new insight.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I guess I missed that...where, exactly in the OP's description of events did you see mental and/or emotional abuse?
> 
> Sorry, for me, biting Mom in the neck such that she needed stitches is enough.
> 
> ...


IME, many if not most dogs HATE face to face contact, eye to eye contact, and hovering over them. These acts provoke them on a mental and emotional basis and can end badly especially when appropriate boundaries have not been established. Another great number of dogs HATE to be hugged as well. 

The OP was not savvy enough to know this with their opening post that those actions can and will provide the stimuli to trigger a negative reaction in order to include that information and convey it in their post or before they took radical action to end their dog's life for what is normal dog behavior for many dogs. I hope they do now.

Actually my comments have been applied to any and all dog breeds across the board. I would even go so far to say that such incidents are more common in small dogs because people are more likely to pick them up and try to cuddle them and force their faces into their faces due to their small size. 

I have owned very social dogs, have some now including my female Mal. You have no idea how many times I have had to stop stupid people from trying to force their faces into that of the dogs. I said they could pet them, not kiss or hug them. Dogs biting people's faces is incredibly common because of this and I am shocked and appalled that people still try to do this stuff. 

Regarding mom being bit in the neck and stitches, mom would have been severely reprimanded and warned to never do that again the first time she would pull that with an 8 week old puppy and each and every time she chose to repeat the behavior up the point of separating the two when unsupervised. Sometimes the child has to be the parent. If I or any of my siblings had put our faces into that of any dog, my mother would have administered a correction so severe it would have extinguished that behavior for life. Fortunately for us kids, we were savvy enough to understand that mom wasn't kidding with this one and heeded her verbal warning.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> IME, many if not most dogs HATE face to face contact, eye to eye contact, and hovering over them. These acts provoke them on a mental and emotional basis and can end badly especially when appropriate boundaries have not been established. Another great number of dogs HATE to be hugged as well.


I'm not sure why the mods deleted the following post that I posted on page one. However, I'm posting again because it relates to the topic and is educational:

"...muzzle bite, displayed exclusively by the highest ranking dogs, qualified best as formal dominance indicators."



http://imgur.com/FZ1Osq7


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I find muzzle bites to be most frequently a correcting bite, usually bite inhibited but I do see where you are coming from.

I just posted a video in a group last night of a family bully breed doing that to its female owner's face when she tried to kiss it. I don't know if you remember the video circulating a month ago of a gorgeous West German show line GSD that was found and the beautiful young lady who found him thought kissing him would be a good idea. She's not so pretty right now.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I find muzzle bites to be most frequently a correcting bite, usually bite inhibited.


You may be correct, however that quote I posted is a link to a study...double click it.

Momma wolf hard correction muzzle bite - starts at 2:00 on timer

double click above link to view momma wolf giving her pup a hard correction

Further, that second video, with german shepherd k9, shows the hovering you were talking about.

Any way you slice it, all these videos are examples of poor leadership and a lack of understanding about dogs and temperaments. And all these dogs in the videos are examples of dogs "correcting" their owners lol


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

See corrected post above


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## Benevolence (Nov 12, 2012)

He was quite well socialized to the point that he liked new people and new dogs; however, he was very attached to both my mom and I. He would hop into either of our laps when he got the chance and flop around while getting pet, loved ear scratches, hugs and face licks. He absolutely loved the attention, sought it out, and would display body language accordingly. I always gave him the option for social interactions and didn’t force it upon him. The several incidents where his behavior changed to aggressive, it changed from happy body language to the tense, glazed over distant look for literally a split second before it happened.


I’ve fostered severely abused rescues; I have seen the traits and triggers mentioned. I feel like there’s a fair amount of straw man situations being presented that are quite different from the situation.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Without it in video, none of us can do more than speculate. 

With that said, even if your dog tolerates or likes people in his face, it is still a bad practice. Any distractions that cause the dog to suddenly act or react such as a doorbell ringing can result in a tooth that is knocked out, a broken nose, a black eye or various other injuries.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

unfortunately @Benevolence its one of those things that can never be answered. whether it applies directly or not... try to take the info provided as just that, information that you may be able to use or pass on to someone else in the future.

Chip offered up an idea of the potential of Rage Syndrome. although rare, perhaps the description and possibility will be more settling for you.

i’m glad you found a buddy in your partners gsd.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

Benevolence said:


> He was quite well socialized to the point that he liked new people and new dogs; however, he was very attached to both my mom and I. He would hop into either of our laps when he got the chance and flop around while getting pet, loved ear scratches, hugs and face licks. He absolutely loved the attention, sought it out, and would display body language accordingly. I always gave him the option for social interactions and didn’t force it upon him. The several incidents where his behavior changed to aggressive, it changed from happy body language to the tense, glazed over distant look for literally a split second before it happened.
> 
> 
> I’ve fostered severely abused rescues; I have seen the traits and triggers mentioned. I feel like there’s a fair amount of straw man situations being presented that are quite different from the situation.
> ...


Look, you wanted a better understanding of aggression and people are providing their experience. No one is arguing with you. If you wanna make yourself feel better then blame the dog. I think that is a poor way too look and learn at this situation.

Let me ask you this, why didn't you send the dog back to the breeder?

A reputable breeder would have taken this dog back.


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## Benevolence (Nov 12, 2012)

Fair enough, I was getting a bit defensive and emotional; it’s hard to describe it in detail and I probably just came here for validation and I’d only hear want I wanted to. I felt terrible about him being put down, as I incorrectly understood at the time he needed to be put down for the rabies testing. I also didn’t think it was right to rehome a dog that was that strong and only showed that side in rare cases and in an extreme way; I didn’t want someone else to get hurt or killed. Maybe I should have returned to the breeder; I think they would have taken him, they care about their dogs a lot. I won’t put myself in a situation where my potential screwup costs the dogs life; thought I was doing a good job raising him but maybe I wasn’t.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Odd that you say you thought your Mal might kill someone. As someone that tracks dog bite fatalities, the only fatalities I am aware of by this breed is one man that died from infection from bites and the other was from a teenage boy left to tend dogs in a kennel. There were I believe 4 Mals and Dutchies involved in that tragedy. What made you think something like that? Just a side note, the Mal involved in the first attack was a retired police K9. The dogs involved in the latter were sport competition dogs.

And you are not going to like this either, but I think you put too muck stock in how you raise, train and socialize them. I think Barton, Balabanov, Ellis and their ilk can make that statement in good faith but the average person on this forum are constantly adjusting to the DNA in front of them.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Benevolence said:


> Fair enough, I was getting a bit defensive and emotional; it’s hard to describe it in detail and I probably just came here for validation and I’d only hear want I wanted to. I felt terrible about him being put down, as I incorrectly understood at the time he needed to be put down for the rabies testing. I also didn’t think it was right to rehome a dog that was that strong and only showed that side in rare cases and in an extreme way; I didn’t want someone else to get hurt or killed. Maybe I should have returned to the breeder; I think they would have taken him, they care about their dogs a lot. I won’t put myself in a situation where my potential screwup costs the dogs life; thought I was doing a good job raising him but maybe I wasn’t.


Was the breeder notified of the outcome?


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## Benevolence (Nov 12, 2012)

Fodder said:


> Was the breeder notified of the outcome?


Yes, I messaged him the night it happened, after he was put down. I explained the situation for his information if he so chose to take it into consideration for future breeding decisions but I wasn’t going to tell him how to do his job. He expressed his condolences but didn’t give input on what the right thing to do was, perhaps out of respect of the situation and the decision having already been made. 

@MineAreWorkingline, he went for her neck and ripped it open in 4 different places. Missed her jugular/carotid by less than an inch, ripped out part of her scalp, and earring out of her ear. That was in the second it took me to get him off of her. If that’s not an indication to being capable of killing someone, I don’t know what is. Yes, those individuals are probably better at raising dogs than I am. I did adjust my training and all interactions as I saw all of his behavior and sought out every training resource I knew of. The certified animal behaviorists I was working with gave me positive feedback on where we were.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

Benevolence said:


> Fair enough, I was getting a bit defensive and emotional; it’s hard to describe it in detail and I probably just came here for validation and I’d only hear want I wanted to. I felt terrible about him being put down, as I incorrectly understood at the time he needed to be put down for the rabies testing. I also didn’t think it was right to rehome a dog that was that strong and only showed that side in rare cases and in an extreme way; I didn’t want someone else to get hurt or killed. Maybe I should have returned to the breeder; I think they would have taken him, they care about their dogs a lot. I won’t put myself in a situation where my potential screwup costs the dogs life; thought I was doing a good job raising him but maybe I wasn’t.


And just so you know, I have a german shepherd from the 4th bloodline and one of the traits from the 4th bloodline, that go back to utz vom haus shutting, is "handler aggression". All bloodlines can produce handler aggression but for a well bred 4th bloodline it is a typical trait.

The breeder new what I wanted and selected one of the two alphas in the litter of 13. These are naturally civil dogs that bite humans without training.

The dog I have has a genetic propensity for handler aggression if not handled correctly...he's put a couple of holes in me when he started maturing.

It's like what another poster stated earlier, most have not experienced these dogs and most would crap their pants when a REAL old-style working dog hits maturity (as frawley said 18-30 months is when most dogs get put down for aggression and usually it is not genetics but rather poor leadrship) and shows you his fangs, ears pointed forward, and giving you that lion monster growl lol.

He is almost 4 years old now and is my best friend and we're together almost 24/7. He is a completely normal sucky dog the majority of the time. Yet, even now, he still growls at me for brushing his hair... sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't- depends on his mood lol

He is usually very affectionate in the mornings but will let you know if you over pet lol.

He is a sharp dog (low threshold for triggering defense) but has solid environmental nerves. You just have to be able read these kind of dogs and go along with them without losing face. You need to respect this kind of dog and have a strong bond and when you do, these are the best dogs for ultimate and REAL protection with very little training other than praising what you like and correcting what you don't like.

Anyways, my point is that handler aggression, although not ideal, is something that some people can live with and appreciate... handler aggression does not automatically make the dog nuts.



Benevolence said:


> I won’t put myself in a situation where my potential screwup costs the dogs life;


Well, in fact, that is exactly what happened.

Actually, I probably put more blame on the breeder ( as long as you were completely honest about your experience) and this politically correct positive only training BS. I am not talking about abusing the dog, I am talking choke collars and prong collars.

*I mean, what did you do when the dog ignored one of your commands?*

Here is Victoria and her positive only bs :






check out @ *6:25 - 7:00* on video
LOL 🤣


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

Benevolence said:


> Fair enough, I suppose it’s hard to describe enough for an unbiased perspective on the situation, training, and his life. Trainers thought that was an unprovoked situation and sometimes it’s a bit of a roll of the dice. I suppose I was/am frustrated because the exact thing I tried to plan to not happen, did happen. I feel that I put in the effort and was proactive but it didn’t work out, meanwhile, I feel that others with BMs did much less work but had fine dogs that did great in families. I’ll let it go.
> 
> Thanks RT. That does make sense.


I got really sad while reading your story. I have a dog that I have spent a lot of time training. I do not think he is a hard police dog material, but instead we made mistakes while trying to make things right at different times, we make all our problems bigger, but like you we had our best intention. Then again, the last 2 trainers really liked him when we showed him, told us what we saw as a problem was in many ways an asset. That considering Mexico's crime and my sister and I being the handlers, he would go and protect us with not much. Aggression is a word that I got familiar with for the last two years.I have a dog that once got one of my uncles really scared (not that is difficult to scare that man). He started barking at him for no apparent reason, like crazy wanting to get him out, he was probably 7 months old, has just started to be reactive around that time. My uncle just went into a room of my house in the backyard with no one from my family, a room that my dog only goes with my dad. When I think about it now, some things make some sense, my uncle was a bully with him, when he was younger, he would touch him when he hide, on top, my uncle was actually and still is a bully, with people, he is mean to my aunt and my female relatives. I allowed my uncle to force my puppy to give him attention when he was younger (that was my mistake), and my pup at somepoint realized he wanted his space and he was strong enough to demand it. 

At our house he used to be people selective (would bark pretty rough to some) and very territorial from the car against men. Yet, we were working with a trainer since January (stopped because of the coronavirus), and things were slowly changing. He is slowly starting to be neutral to people in general.

He has not bitten anyone (opposite, he was bitten by a dog a couple of times). Probably because we muzzle trained him. I like to believe he would not bit anyone from my close family, my parents, my sisters, nor me. He did nip when he was younger but we corrected that, and the other day he did it once again after over a year, trying to hold on to my little sister (11 years old) by holding her pants (but he never press his muzzle), not even the clothes got a mark. I guess it is difficult to know for sure if he would do something like you mentioned. He seems to adore everyone in our close family. Though, my youngest sister has run around him, yell around him, jump, acted crazy, etc, but in general she respects his actual personal space (not something he does though, he loves licking her face when she is sleeping, but respects her food and her toys). We don't really over pet him. But we would also probably put him down if he hurt someone in the throat like that.

Could I ask, from an average pet owner to another, how did you correct his bad behaviors when they happened during those 8 months? I just don't understand the positive approach for a really strong dog.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

CAROLINM said:


> Could I ask, from an average pet owner to another, how did you correct his bad behaviors when they happened during those 8 months? I just don't understand the positive approach for a really strong dog.


Once dog learns command with treats or toys, I quickly switch to just praising with higher pitched voice and petting top of head. In the correction phase, I use prong collars and/or choke collar. The following is from the article I posted on first page and is pretty much what I do:

Leerburg | Dealing with the Dominant Dog

*Poor Obedience Training is Part of the Cause of Dominance Problems*

"When you think in terms of rank and pack behavior it's easy to understand how ineffective obedience training results in dominance issues with maturing dogs.

The correct way to obedience train a dog involves several stages of training


In the Learning Phase the dog is taught the meaning of a command in a distraction free environment (I.E. Your kitchen) through motivational methods. This means we guide and help the dog through different exercises by giving them food or a toy rewards when they do what we want. It's our job to determine what motivator works best for our individual dog.
Once the dog has learned the command in the first location we then "generalize" the behavior by teaching that behavior in more and more environments and under more and more distractions.
In the Correction Phase we teach a dog that it will be corrected if it does not follow a command that it has learned in the LEARNING PHSASE. We never correct a dog unless we are 100% sure it knows and understands what we are asking him to do. To get 100% consistency of behavior we must have a correction phase of some sort. While corrections for many dogs may simply mean withholding the reward, for others it's going to mean a physical correction of some kind.


In the end our dogs must learn to mind in every situation.
Many obedience classes do a decent job teaching owners the LEARNING PHASE. Unfortunately many classes leave out the correction pause of training. That's OK with puppy classes because puppies should not receive physical corrections. But adult dogs need to go through a correction phase of training.

Almost all of the large pet warehouse classes skip the correction phase. In doing so these type of classes are one of the leading causes of dominant dog problems."


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

RealThreats said:


> Once dog learns command with treats or toys, I quickly switch to just praising with higher pitched voice and petting top of head. In the correction phase, I use prong collars and/or choke collar. The following is from the article I posted on first page and is pretty much what I do:
> 
> Leerburg | Dealing with the Dominant Dog
> 
> ...



Sorry, my question was for the OP since I just dont understand if he had a purely positive approach and why, with such a dog. I am a small person, I weight as much as my dog, my balanced trainer and us use the prong collar mainly, and also we were starting with the e-collar. We had the prong since our first trainer, but we only learn to use it and train with it with the the last one (third one). Obedience has been a life changer for us, he was never a bad dog at home, but he could be a jerk at times before and his recall was awful even when we believed it was good. We were starting to socialize with specific dogs and people before the coronavirus, hopefully we will resume. I do like your response, I love reading as much as I can about this. Thank you.


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## Benevolence (Nov 12, 2012)

In the aggressive incidents, when he seemed to mentally snap, I had to physically restrain him and yell 'No!' in his face then he got crated for a period of time, but he was already snapped 'out' of the mood a second after being restrained by me. I never hit him but me restraining him wasn't gentle by any means. Aside from the mental snaps, he didn't need much correction and the obedience training was done at a pace where I felt that he understood what was being asked and we reinforced the training in increasingly distracting environments; to be honest he excelled at that more than any other dog I've worked with. I was concerned with creating a fear-aggressive dog, so I stayed away from positive punishment as much as I could, aside from verbal corrections. Maybe that was the wrong thing to do though.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Creating a fear aggressive dog?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Benevolence said:


> ... Aside from the mental snaps, he didn't need much correction and the obedience training was done at a pace where I felt that he understood what was being asked and we reinforced the training in increasingly distracting environments; to be honest he excelled at that more than any other dog I've worked with. I was concerned with creating a fear-aggressive dog, *so I stayed away from positive punishment as much as I could*, aside from verbal corrections. Maybe that was the wrong thing to do though.


In general, lots of people tend to misunderstand "positive punishment". Verbal corrections are a form of positive punishment! And it's always best to use the least onerous form of positive punishment that is effective!

My dog is the same way. A verbal correction works most of the time. A leash pop can sort of reinforce the meaning when she's more in drive, but 90% of the time, a verbal correction is all that is required!

There have, for me and my dog, only been a handful of times when anything more was needed. 

That being said, in or out of drive, a command IS NOT A REQUEST! LOL! I demand compliance, and will escalate the correction as needed until I get it!

Touchy subject though, in this PC world. But you own a BIG STRONG DOG, and you owe it to the dog and everyone else out there to have it under control! 

That's why folks here and elsewhere emphasize training! The more you practice, the less you - and everyone else - has to worry!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Benevolence said:


> In the aggressive incidents, when he seemed to mentally snap, I had to physically restrain him and yell 'No!' in his face then he got crated for a period of time, but he was already snapped 'out' of the mood a second after being restrained by me. I never hit him but me restraining him wasn't gentle by any means. Aside from the mental snaps, he didn't need much correction and the obedience training was done at a pace where I felt that he understood what was being asked and we reinforced the training in increasingly distracting environments; to be honest he excelled at that more than any other dog I've worked with. I was concerned with creating a fear-aggressive dog, so I stayed away from positive punishment as much as I could, aside from verbal corrections. Maybe that was the wrong thing to do though.


If there wasn't some neurological problem of some sort with him, just think about trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.Mals are always quick to react anyway. Thats one of the things people like about them, and those same people will sometimes comment about them being almost in a trance with biting. A real generalized way to think about some of these dogs with very strong drives has to do with how they mature. What I notice is how as a puppy they may like contact from people, by 2 they may still accept it, by 4 they MAY tolerate it. Once they only tolerate it, there's a limit. 

The thing with any corrections on these dogs is they have to be fair in their minds. Even the social, happy and friendly Mals need to be handled a little different. That combination of sensitive and quick to learn, but so easily frustrated. They take some skill. People I've seen do well with them can pay attention to such minute details, its out of my range.


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## Luca Bubba's Mom (Apr 1, 2020)

Fodder said:


> you’ve said a lot and i’m sorry for your loss as well as what your mom had to endure, but this really isn’t enough info.
> 
> why’d you choose the breed, what’s your experience level and/or previous exposure to the breed, where was he acquired, what’s his pedigree, what type of professional breed specific guidance did you have, did the breeder have an opinion at any point, were they contacted?
> 
> ...


LISTEN: YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO THIS: I got my shepherd, Patton, as a puppy. My husband chose him against my will b/c he had two parents that were large. His mother was aggressive, so was the father. My husband brought him home, on the first day home, this puppy snapped at the adult rottweiler who was super loving and passive. That was my first red flag. Fast forward; he bit several people that came to our home. It got to the point that we had gates up and my 7 year old daughter had to sit on top of kitchen tables and counters and climbe along those things to avoid being bitten. We are not new to shepherds. We know what we are doing. This was a different situation. He was so loving and sweet to me, but no one else and we all tried as a family to train him. At 12 months he was taken from us by an SPCA president thinking I didn't know what I was doing, and they could use him for a cadaver dog. They called me the next day saying he needed to be put down; that they never had an aggressive dog at this age like that. I took him to Penn Behaviour dept., they said to put him down; that he was overbred and could not control his prey drive and aggression. One of the worst days of my life; I had to put him down and my vet agreed given the references that I was given from the above. Do NOT hold yourself responsible. There are rare circumstances where overbreeding creates over aggressive dogs. It was one of the most difficult days of my life. I will never be able to truly reconcile that; if only I could have found a lone person that had no family, no friends, lived in a shack in the middle of nowhere, he could have been ok. But that is not realistic. You did the right thing. I am so sorry....


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

Luca Bubba's Mom said:


> LISTEN: YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO THIS: I got my shepherd, Patton, as a puppy. My husband chose him against my will b/c he had two parents that were large. His mother was aggressive, so was the father. My husband brought him home, on the first day home, this puppy snapped at the adult rottweiler who was super loving and passive. That was my first red flag. Fast forward; he bit several people that came to our home. It got to the point that we had gates up and my 7 year old daughter had to sit on top of kitchen tables and counters and climbe along those things to avoid being bitten. We are not new to shepherds. We know what we are doing. This was a different situation. He was so loving and sweet to me, but no one else and we all tried as a family to train him. At 12 months he was taken from us by an SPCA president thinking I didn't know what I was doing, and they could use him for a cadaver dog. They called me the next day saying he needed to be put down; that they never had an aggressive dog at this age like that. I took him to Penn Behaviour dept., they said to put him down; that he was overbred and could not control his prey drive and aggression. One of the worst days of my life; I had to put him down and my vet agreed given the references that I was given from the above. Do NOT hold yourself responsible. There are rare circumstances where overbreeding creates over aggressive dogs. It was one of the most difficult days of my life. I will never be able to truly reconcile that; if only I could have found a lone person that had no family, no friends, lived in a shack in the middle of nowhere, he could have been ok. But that is not realistic. You did the right thing. I am so sorry....


*"Do NOT hold yourself responsible"*

So who is responsible? 

*"My husband chose him against my will b/c he had two parents that were large. His mother was aggressive, so was the father."*

LOL

*"It got to the point that we had gates up and my 7 year old daughter had to sit on top of kitchen tables and counters and climbe along those things to avoid being bitten. We are not new to shepherds.  We know what we are doing."*

LOL


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## danica (May 26, 2015)

Benevolence said:


> Hi all, this was about my Belgian Malinois that I got from a reputable breeder in the US. I ended up putting him down just under 10 months old, I realize people may judge me for it, but I believe it was the best thing that could be done. I’m writing this to describe what I did to raise him and hoping that someone could either point out where I went wrong or confirm that he had some brain issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was a beautiful dog, it’s too bad you put him down so quickly, there are alternatives , first I do feel this dog was way over your head if you’ve never had one. Malinois are working dogs best suited for K9 or military, I’ve had shepherds for years but not this breed because of the temperament. They are beautiful and very intelligent definitely not for a novice handler. Did you contact your breeder? ( if you already answered, I’m sorry i didn’t see it) My brother also keeps GSDs and had one similar to yours, he gave him to the K9 training division of the police department. They took him and now he is a working K9, in the hands of someone trained to lead him. I’m sorry to read you put him down at only 10 months, he was still a baby and most likely your breeder or local humane society/GSD rescue could have helped you place him with a more experienced handler. I would suggest a lab or golden retriever dog, they’re a great family friendly dog.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

OP, sorry you and your mom had to go through this traumatic experience, and of course sorry for the dog, too.

While I bow to the experience of the others here, IMO a dog that tears into a lady's face who's known to him after being petted by her, is not a well-balanced dog. While only getting a small snapshot of things with your post, it sounds like you did things more or less right. The fact that people picked him up a little when he was 10 weeks and your Mom made the mistake of bringing her face down doesn't excuse the unacceptably violent act that followed.

Michael Ellis, in a recent interview, said that Belgian Malinois are essentially biting dogs--they're not shepherds anymore, but dogs bred to bite people for police/protection/guarding. Is it, then, surprising that they sometimes bite people? Any more than "the dog that shall not be named" sometimes shows its breeding and kills a poodle or a kid or an old lady? It seems to me that bringing a dog bred to bite people into a home with vulnerable people is taking on a lot of risk--kind of like buying a shotgun that sometimes shoots sideways or backwards.

Which is not to say that all or most Mals or "dogs that shall not be named" will do something awful someday, but just that the possibility is there, built into their genes, so the risk is always going to be much higher than if you got a lab or a golden or even a well-bred shepherd.

It sounds like you put a huge amount of time and effort into raising your Mal right, to your credit. It may very well be that you got too much dog, but that phrase is a euphemism for "dangerous dog unless in expert hands, and maybe even then." Being an expert takes time and experience. I certainly am not ready for a Mal or a Cane Corso or something like that... my 16-month shepherd is enough challenge as it is!

Again, sorry you went through this. I don't think it's <i>your fault</i> that it happened. Probably if you have to be Michael Ellis to safely own a dog, most people shouldn't own that kind of dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm late commenting and I apologize I haven't read the whole thing. 

I have four malinois at the moment.Three of them are completely unrelated but all are strong working lines. Two of them are directly out of KNPV PH1 sires- one sire is currently a working police K9, the other has police K9 in her lines, and an IPO3 sire (or whatever the alphabet is now). 

Malinois are a unique breed, and not for everyone by ANY stretch. It's impossible to tell what happened with this dog without seeing him in action which is of course impossible. Could you please PM me the pedigree?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Benevolence said:


> Yes, I messaged him the night it happened, after he was put down. I explained the situation for his information if he so chose to take it into consideration for future breeding decisions but I wasn’t going to tell him how to do his job. He expressed his condolences but didn’t give input on what the right thing to do was, perhaps out of respect of the situation and the decision having already been made.
> 
> @MineAreWorkingline, he went for her neck and ripped it open in 4 different places. Missed her jugular/carotid by less than an inch, ripped out part of her scalp, and earring out of her ear. That was in the second it took me to get him off of her. If that’s not an indication to being capable of killing someone, I don’t know what is. Yes, those individuals are probably better at raising dogs than I am. I did adjust my training and all interactions as I saw all of his behavior and sought out every training resource I knew of. The certified animal behaviorists I was working with gave me positive feedback on where we were.


The description of the injuries indicates more then one bite, none of which were warnings. Any dog that inflicts that level of damage should be put down. Provoked or not, that is unacceptable behavior for a companion animal. A snap/bite is one thing. These injuries could not have been caused by that. 
I'm sorry that you and your mother went through this. I'm sorry that this dog was placed in your home. Perhaps in a different situation he may have flourished, or maybe not. The book is closed so who knows. You can beat yourself up or you can take the lesson and move on. For anyone to suggest that you should have done otherwise is ridiculous. First and foremost because they are not you. Perhaps there are people who would make a different decision, but you did not and given the injuries to your mother I understand that.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

*Prager*

causes of undesirable aggression in dogs 

"In my opinion, unless the dog is an anomaly, which is very rare, the dogs are overly aggressive and/or overly protective because the owner is doing something wrong or not doing what he suppose to do. #1 reason is that people do not understand that they MUST be in the leadership position of the dog. The purely positive (pp) trainers are the worse culprit in generating problem aggression by denying the existence of leadership position and pecking order. These people are fruitcakes ideologues and not dog trainers. If you listen to them you are in peril. They and other trainers,... even some trainers teaching 4 quadrants of training, teach the dog to work for itself and then the owner is surprised that their selfish dog starts bossing them and people around. And guess what? - they blame genetics. On the other hand if the handler is in a leadership position that then means that the dog is working for them and with them and THIS IS OF PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE!!!!!! " - Hans Alpine k9


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> The description of the injuries indicates more then one bite, none of which were warnings. Any dog that inflicts that level of damage should be put down. Provoked or not, that is unacceptable behavior for a companion animal. A snap/bite is one thing. These injuries could not have been caused by that.
> I'm sorry that you and your mother went through this. I'm sorry that this dog was placed in your home. Perhaps in a different situation he may have flourished, or maybe not. The book is closed so who knows. You can beat yourself up or you can take the lesson and move on. *For anyone to suggest that you should have done otherwise is ridiculous. First and foremost because they are not you.* Perhaps there are people who would make a different decision, but you did not and given the injuries to your mother I understand that.


You think suggesting he return dog to breeder is ridiculous?

The dog was giving these signs since 10 weeks of age according to OP. What is unacceptable to me, is knowing that this predisposition for aggression existed and not properly managing it. OP is lucky that it was his Mom and not someones kid. Not only would he have a bruised ego, he would be wallowing in debt from a lawsuit.

*"Almost all of the large pet warehouse classes skip the correction phase. In doing so these type of classes are one of the leading causes of dominant dog problems." *- ed frawley

^^^^^^^ according to OP he used positive only training - no correction phase

If the OP didn't want suggestions or opinions, then that person shouldn't have posted on international forum. And I'm glad he posted, because this is important information that all dog owners should be made aware of.

We live in throw away society. Dogs have a soul and are not toilet paper. People need to start taking personal responsibility and start swallowing their pride.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The OP obviously feels terrible about the entire experience.Let's please refrain from rehashing the mistakes over and over again.Helpful advice for the future is welcomed.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> The OP obviously feels terrible about the entire experience.Let's please refrain from rehashing the mistakes over and over again.Helpful advice for the future is welcomed.


*I already mentioned that I blame the breeder and positive only training methods*.
It's obvious the OP has zero clue in handling dogs (I'm NO pro either). And that isn't entirely his fault either. The biggest mistake he made was using Victoria Stillwell type figures as his animal behaviourist.

If OP is hurt from the opinions he received, then it is OBVIOUS he doesn't have the personality to handle hard dogs; if I can sense it from a computer half way across the world, then surely the dog sensed it too.

Further, this not only needs to be rehashed, this topic should be pounded into peoples head for all the DOG's sake.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

RealThreats said:


> You think suggesting he return dog to breeder is ridiculous?
> 
> The dog was giving these signs since 10 weeks of age according to OP. What is unacceptable to me, is knowing that this predisposition for aggression existed and not properly managing it. OP is lucky that it was his Mom and not someones kid. Not only would he have a bruised ego, he would be wallowing in debt from a lawsuit.
> 
> ...


I think that if a dog caused the described damage to a loved one a person would not be out of line to immediately destroy said dog and worry about making phone calls later. In a not so distant past the dog would have caught a bullet "out back of the barn" .
I think individuals may respond differently. I think that education is great, but vilifying someone for making an emotional and stressful decision in less then ideal circumstances is cruel. If a lack of knowledge was a crime we would all be in trouble.
I dislike the positive only trend, but some on this forum promote it and think collars are cruel and doggies should romp loose through the town. 
And as an aside, toilet paper is worth gold right now!


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I think that if a dog caused the described damage to a loved one a person would not be out of line to immediately destroy said dog and worry about making phone calls later. In a not so distant past the dog would have caught a bullet "out back of the barn" .
> I think individuals may respond differently. I think that education is great, but vilifying someone for making an emotional and stressful decision in less then ideal circumstances is cruel. If a lack of knowledge was a crime we would all be in trouble.
> I dislike the positive only trend, but some on this forum promote it and think collars are cruel and doggies should romp loose through the town.
> And as an aside, toilet paper is worth gold right now!


Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall anyone vilifying the OP

And those people who think collars are cruel are part of the problem - indoctrination

What's more cruel, a pop with prong or a bullet to head - because the leader is ignorant to reality

Are you suggesting, that you'd trade your dog for toilet paper lol


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

RealThreats said:


> Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall anyone vilifying the OP
> 
> Are you suggesting, that you'd trade your dog for toilet paper lol


It may come to that soon! Lol.
Not for a million dollars.
But seriously, I think the breeder erred, and possible failed to provide support and guidance. I think the OP got caught in an awful position and I just think we should be aware of that when providing guidance. As someone who euthanized a young dog following a vicious attack on a passerby, I can tell you that it is life changing. In my case there was no breeder and no good option but the end result is the same and I still have to live with all the what ifs.
I am simply suggesting that the OP deserves compassion, not condemnation.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

INFORMATION SPECIFIC TO THIS BOARD: To be a participating member of this board you must follow these *simple* rules of conduct:

1. Be courteous to other members at all times;

2. Be respectful of the feelings of others;

5. Do not use defamatory statements or statements that attack the character of another;

9. Do not use statements that incite conflict among members

They can be found in their entirety here: Board Rules


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> It may come to that soon! Lol.
> Not for a million dollars.
> But seriously, I think the breeder erred, and possible failed to provide support and guidance. I think the OP got caught in an awful position and I just think we should be aware of that when providing guidance. As someone who euthanized a young dog following a vicious attack on a passerby, I can tell you that it is life changing. In my case there was no breeder and no good option but the end result is the same and I still have to live with all the what ifs.
> I am simply suggesting that the OP deserves compassion, not condemnation.






RealThreats said:


> Seriously though, you must feel terrible about this and I'm sorry for your loss.


^^^^^^^^^^^^ I offered compassion on first page lol


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

Just read through this thread. OP, I'm sorry you and your mother had to endure the unfortunate incident and your dog had to be put down. I hope your mother is doing okay now. 

I'm just curious, was that the 1st time your mother was petting him from that particular position? If it wasn't, and he just snapped, then I'm inclined to say that the dog wasn't wired correctly.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

The damage that he's done, to a person who trained and cared for him, was near fatal. I completely agree (I think @Sabis mom mentioned it) that regardless if there had been signs or not, a pet dog should NOT under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES inflict that kind of damage to his caretaker. 

Even if you had chosen to return him to the breeder, I don't think the dog would have had a full life due to the fact that it had been proven of the damage it could do to his non-abusive, loving caretaker who has knowledge of training dogs. 

In the end, my opinion is that you did the right thing.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

McGloomy said:


> The damage that he's done, to a person who trained and cared for him, was near fatal. I completely agree (I think @Sabis mom mentioned it) that regardless if there had been signs or not, a pet dog should NOT under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES inflict that kind of damage to his caretaker.
> 
> Even if you had chosen to return him to the breeder, I don't think the dog would have had a full life due to the fact that it had been proven of the damage it could do to his non-abusive, loving caretaker who has knowledge of training dogs.
> 
> In the end, my opinion is that you did the right thing.


I have in my class a girl with an awesome GSD. Great dog!!! When she handles, him he wants to kill everyone - when I handle it he is like a loving lamb with me and others. The question I would ask is:" How come that in some hands the dog will be aggressive and in hands of others, the same dog will not be aggressive? Explain that!!! Genetics? I call bull pucky on that one. Genetics view on an overly aggressive or overly protective dog is only partially true. Genetics are only generating predisposition to a certain behavior. and not the behavior itself. That is predisposed by the relationship between the handler and the dog. Genetics are like a foundation for the house. You can build a house on almost any ground, if you know what you are doing, that is. I have a degree in engineering geology so you can take my word for it. It is the same with dog training. If from the pup or the dog is handled and trained correctly, then there is no problem with 99% of dogs.* If handled incorrectly then you can turn the most loving Labrador int Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est. *
- Hans Alpine K9


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

Mate, cool it.


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

McGloomy said:


> Mate, cool it.


Dropping facts is cool

What are you dropping?


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