# Inbred puppy



## Bearman (Apr 13, 2017)

I recently put a 100$ deposit on a German Shepherd puppy. He is currently 3 weeks old. Well they just messaged me and said his parents are brother and sister. He looks fine to me and they have vet documents proving both male and female are healthy with no problems. She was wanting 300$ for him. I don't know anything about dogs and inbreeding but they say it's her first litter with that dog.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Lots of stuff wrong with this. First, brother and sister is way too close to breed, IMO. All kinds of genetic issues and problems can arise from this. Next, you should never put a deposit on a pup without seeing the pedigree first. Did they not let you see it before you put the deposit down? Why withhold an important fact like that? Lastly, I'm sorry, but $300 for a GSD is dirt cheap and you're very unlikely to get a decent dog at that price. Health tests alone cost more for the breeder to perform. A good breeder puts a lot of expense into their dogs and because of that prices run higher.

Where did you find this breeder? And what are you looking for in a pup? 

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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes the pup looks fine. He isn't going to sprout horns and a forked tail because his sire and dam were brother and sister. What may happen is that if either of the grand-parents was a carrier for any genetic condition, like EPI, MegE, DM, and so many more -- heartbreaking shtuff our breed is prone to, your pup has an excellent chance of having the condition. 

A carrier is not effected, but he will generally produce 25% affected, 50% carriers, and 25% non-effected. Or something like that. So chances are excellent that both the sire and the dam are carriers. which makes your chances good for having the condition. 

And, if this is her first litter, than the breeder has ZERO way to know what either the sire or dam is carrying. Ok, if she has tested for DM (Degenerative Mylopothy), I think they can come back clear, effected or a carrier -- not sure. But that is just one condition. HD and ED are other conditions for which the OFA can certify sire and dam -- that is Hip Dysplasia and Elbow Dyslpasia. But other inherited conditions like MegE -- Mega Esaphogus, which is like a telescoping of the esophogus where the dog will barf solid food, and lose weight, aspirate and generally die of pneumonia, can maybe be managed temporarily with a baily chair and a lot of work. 

And just so many other possibilities. 

Lose your deposit, as a lesson not to buy a puppy from someone who is selling cheap dogs that she should be giving away. Should have never allowed the pairing. Very irresponsible. If a breeder's license was like a driver's license, she just committed the equivalent of a DUI, and should lose her license and go through steps to reinstate it.


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## Bearman (Apr 13, 2017)

Dang. I had no idea it was that big of a problem! Thank you for the information. I really appreciate it.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

You are in for a world of hurt. Shame on them for allowing this to happen. 300 bucks...alarm bells should have gone off. Ive seen cross breeds go for more. 
Eat the hundred.
Then stick around here for awhile as many will help you along the way to getting a quality pup.


Poor doggies:crying:


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

At that price point you may as well adopt. You'll be taking the same gamble but at least the money isn't funding a low quality breeder. 

The advantage of going to a breeder is getting a pup whose parents were carefully selected for health and temperament by someone with a clear goal of producing the best gsds possible. Someone who is working their dogs so that they can prove that they should be bred.... If that's not happening here then there's no reason to waste your money.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would try to get the deposit back and if that doesn't work, consider it a lesson well learned and find a good breeder. You'll be happier in the end with a healthy pup vs a lifetime of possible health issues, not mentioning the heartbreak that comes a long with a sickly dog. I am sorry you are going through this.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shadows dad was also uncle as far as I can tell. She isn't fine. I have a dog with a bad heart, weak lungs, temperment issue, hip problems, joint issues in general, weak balance, allergies, skin issues and a crappy immune system. At 6.5 years old I have every reason to suspect the worst is yet to come. I have been fighting to keep her healthy all her life and I have nothing to look forward to except heartbreak. 
Walk away. 
I can think of any number of reasons that this is a bad idea not the least of which is that you are supporting a breeder who is using the dogs as a bank account.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree the pups are inbred, but these pups will need homes.

I assume there are no health checks on parents.

What about the pedigree- any health checks there?

I wouldn't automatically pass on this litter, but do go into it with eyes wide open. It is not super uncommon for a breeder to breed close (mother-son, father-daughter, less common brother-sister) on purpose to "bring out" certain traits or cement a line type. However, this was probably just an accident. Pups out of this breeding won't necessarily have any problems, but as Sue explained have a much higher percentage of expressing any genetic disorders.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> I agree the pups are inbred, but these pups will need homes.
> 
> I assume there are no health checks on parents.
> 
> ...


I personally don't support any breeding that is as close as mother/son, father/daughter, sister/brother, etc. I understand linebreeding but would want to see it in the 3rd or 4th generation.

At $300 a dog, it's obvious this breeder hasn't done any health testing or research to understand the outcomes of this breeding. Like you said, either an accident or they're just breeding for money without care for the welfare of the dogs. 

It's a sad situation, and yes they will need homes. But if I'm going to devote 12-15 years of my life to a dog, I want one that has been set up to have a healthy and happy life.

OP, I would walk away from this and find a breeder who does health testing and can explain to you why they bred the specific sire and dam and what outcomes they expect from the litter.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Kim- I hear you and totally understand where you are coming from on this. I actually considered a close breeding myself, to bring out some desirable traits in my line, but decided against it. The closest I want to go now as a breeder is 5-4 or 4-5. This is because, when you care so much about each individual dog, culling is just too heartbreaking, and I don't want to set myself up for that. Even though, I think done right close breedings do have their place, as far as cementing a trait, but it's not for me. I've seen issues crop up when breedings are even 2-3 or 3-4. No guarantee with an outcross, but better odds especially with health testing. Again, depends on how well the breeder knows the dogs in the lines. Breeders can have good reasons to breed close. 

Clearly, in this case, it was just an accident, or a matter of having two dogs on hand, and wanting to make money off puppies. 

It's too bad. These pups will need homes, and sadly they may indeed suffer ill health effects, or even mental or temperament issues. 

OP- it's up to you, but consider carefully the input you have gotten so far and make an informed decision.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, the puppies will need homes. 

That is not the responsibility of the OP. That is the responsibility of the breeder. Frankly, if you have brother and sister, and let them tie, and have a litter of seven puppies and sell them for $300 each, then you are in the black. You have just made $2,100 for a 32$ bag of dog food, and for cleaning a bunch of newspapers. 

A top-notch breeder may have a reason to breed siblings, a 2-2 breeding on the grand mother and grand father. For me to consider a puppy out of such a litter, the breeder would have to have decades of experience with the lines, and have a specific goal/reason for this particular pairing. I would like to know what all the lines have produced, because there are no perfect-in-health lines out there. And I would have to be on board with what the breeder was trying to achieve, and what the future plans were for the pup or pups the breeder was holding back.

An irresponsible mating of convenience, of brother and sister should not benefit the breeder. If this breeder gets $2100 for this litter, you know what is going to happen in 6-12 months? 

It is the buying a puppy from a pet store thing. Yes, that puppy needs out of that deliberately small, confining cage, but when you buy that puppy, the pet store owner puts in a call to the mill to send another GSD puppy. The mill owner ships packs a GSD puppy in with the other breeds, to be sent by semi to fill that empty cage. Then he breeds another GSD bitch and maybe he acquires another GSD bitch at the auction. These bitches have litters twice a year. But that is not the hard part of their lives. The hard part of their lives is the other 8-10 months where they live in tiny cages or runs sitting in their own feces, or having another dog in the cage above them, dropping its filth down onto it. 

Ok, that's not the case here. But if people buy from those places, then they breed another bitch and the only way to stop them from continuing keeping these dogs in horrible situations is when the puppies do not sell, and they mark them down, and they mark them down again, and then one day they aren't there, but the poor thing probably has awful problems from spending that formative time, in a box peeing on itself. 

What you have here is a situation where someone is breeding sister to brother. And though we do not know for sure, the price tag here tells us that the breeder isn't top notch or experienced. It also tells us that they have next to nothing invested in this litter. So ANY gain on the litter is counter-productive. Ideally, no one would buy these puppies. The owner of the litter has 7 puppies that are getting big, and dumps them at the local shelter. 

Then rescue sweeps down and pulls them, helps them by socializing them a little and finds them families that will take care of them. And the money they pay to the rescue goes into helping some older dog get heartworm treatment or some young bitch some breeder agreed to let go be spayed before going to its new home.

We can't be 100% sure that the puppies would make it out of the shelter. Better than usual chance if they are dropped off under 6 months old. But is it worse for a few of these puppies to die in a shelter, or for the breeder to breed that bitch again, and again, and again, and again, because that little gold mine they got there is pooping out little pounds of living gold. $300 is not much money for a puppy, but it is almost purely profit and multiplied by 7, it is a chunk of change.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

can I like Selzer's comment more than once?


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

@selzer, well said!

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## Jennyrum (Jun 12, 2020)

kimbale said:


> Lots of stuff wrong with this. First, brother and sister is way too close to breed, IMO. All kinds of genetic issues and problems can arise from this. ...”


Hi.. i saw your post and was wondering, if you could point me in the right direction to a gsm breeder that does not inbreed their shepards. We really want a puppy, but I don’t was to support inbreeding.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

In my opinion, there is no such thing as a cheap puppy. Buying a low priced puppy usually results in very expensive vet bills and a lot of heartache down the line. To me, losing the $100 deposit would be worth it, but I would try to get it back, especially since the breeder didn't disclose the parents' relationship until after the deposit was paid.


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