# Dogs to Avoid



## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

I'm curious what dogs should be avoided in a pedigree especially if breeding was ever a consideration?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

It’s not that easy. Learning Pedigrees and matching good breeding stock is an art.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

That's why I'm here, to learn. I just don't know quite where to start. I've spent some time researching, but now I'm looking for more names and info. Working dogs have always been a passion that I have not been able to learn that much on up to this point. Now I am starting to go more in depth.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Do you know of a good breeder who could mentor you?


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

It depends on what you want, what you have and where you wanna go with your program.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Saphire said:


> Do you know of a good breeder who could mentor you?


No, unfortunately I am the biggest expert on the subject of GSD lines and breeding around here (Suriname) and have yet to be able to really communicate with breeders. However, I will be spending some time in the states (I am American) soon. At that point, I want to visit some breeders (weberhaus in Kansas where I will be) and clubs.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> It depends on what you want, what you have and where you wanna go with your program.


For now, I am merely considering breeding. I have seen enough of "pet breeding" to be disgusted. But I am also aware that should I get a superior dog (which is my goal whether that dog is ever used for breeding or not), it is always good to have more breeders committed to improving the breed, not just putting names together or breeding for money. My dream has always been to own and train my own dog in IGP.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Rosa S. said:


> No, unfortunately I am the biggest expert on the subject of GSD lines and breeding around here (Suriname) and have yet to be able to really communicate with breeders. However, I will be spending some time in the states (I am American) soon. At that point, I want to visit some breeders (weberhaus in Kansas where I will be) and clubs.


If you are in KS, then hit up Malinda and do everything she says. 

Join a club, work dogs, trial dogs, then do that many more times, and then think about breeding. Learn what dogs work well together and which ones you like.

My 4 year old is out of her kennel (Weberhaus) and doing very well in IGP as as being a great companion.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The two most knowledgeable people to ever post on this board re. bloodlines were Cliffson and Carmspack. Unfortunately, neither one posts here anymore, BUT if you use the 'search' function to find their posts, you will learn a lot. The 'Iceberg Breeders' thread is an especially good resource.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> If you are in KS, then hit up Malinda and do everything she says.
> Join a club, work dogs, trial dogs, then do that many more times, and then think about breeding. Learn what dogs work well together and which ones you like.
> My 4 year old is out of her kennel (Weberhaus) and doing very well in IGP as as being a great companion.


I am not in Kansas but I will be spending some time there in the near future (no more than a year though before I go on to college in Brazil). But I have every intention of learning to work dogs, although I do not know that trialing will be an option for me unless I proved very apt. I worked through some of the basics with my last GSD (my family breeds GSDs although not the way I would). She has been probably our best puppy ever produced but has had as many set backs as could be imagined. She is now in a new home (not by my choice but a long story). She had been sick for several months which was what prevented me from being able to further her training more. She is recovering well now, and the vet expects her to make a full recovery. Because of her, I have been doing more research than ever to learn more about the breed. I gave her the basics in fuss, sitz, platz, bleibe, hier (some targeting in bite work/out and very lightly on barking on command). Because of this, she is being evaluated for training in protection training (police work). I will not get into her faults at this point; especially since many of those are because of her environment as she grew up (she is barely 14 months old now). I did my best to combat it, but there was only so much I could do. That being said, she is my inspiration to know the breed better. My interest in pedigrees and bloodlines is because I believe it plays a big part in all this.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

That is a very opinion based question. Different people have different tastes. The reality is also when you talk about popular stud dogs, you can usually find them in some successful dogs somewhere. You’d be better off looking at dogs you like and asking about dogs you see commonly in their pedigrees.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Sunsilver said:


> The two most knowledgeable people to ever post on this board re. bloodlines were Cliffson and Carmspack. Unfortunately, neither one posts here anymore, BUT if you use the 'search' function to find their posts, you will learn a lot. The 'Iceberg Breeders' thread is an especially good resource.


I have been doing exactly that😂😂


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Bearshandler said:


> That is a very opinion based question. Different people have different tastes. The reality is also when you talk about popular stud dogs, you can usually find them in some successful dogs somewhere. You’d be better off looking at dogs you like and asking about dogs you see commonly in their pedigrees.


Weberhaus, for instance? More or less, I want to know why certain people like a dog or don't. Then I can come to conclusions based on what they say. For example: Quanto/Canto from old lines.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Rosa S. said:


> Weberhaus, for instance? More or less, I want to know why certain people like a dog or don't. Then I can come to conclusions based on what they say. For example: Quanto/Canto from old lines.


My understanding is that Malinda breeds East German and Czech/Slovak lines. I haven’t seen an established weberhaus specific line that gives definitive characteristics to expect. You’d have to look at the specific pairing. As for Canto/Quanto, I’ve never looked into them. Not common in the type of dog im interested in and not close enough to be very relevant IMO.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Some people avoid Fero and Troll because of all the backmassing. Some people avoid Quardes because of supposed ortho issue. Some avoid Drago v Patriot because of nerve. Some avoid Falk for allergies. 

So here is my input. Go work dogs and find out what you like. I like the Quardes dogs I've seen. Love my dog from the Falk line. And it's hard to avoid some dogs because they are in almost all pedigrees. I can't stand the Drago progeny I've seen and others LOVE them. And I love love love the Eqidius lines. 

Wait until you get to Kansas. Visit the KS clubs AND the ST. Louis clubs! Watch the dogs. Work the dogs and learn all you can. Find the ones you like. You'll figure it out


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

IV


Jax08 said:


> Some people avoid Fero and Troll because of all the backmassing. Some people avoid Quardes because of supposed ortho issue. Some avoid Drago v Patriot because of nerve. Some avoid Falk for allergies.
> 
> So here is my input. Go work dogs and find out what you like. I like the Quardes dogs I've seen. Love my dog from the Falk line. And it's hard to avoid some dogs because they are in almost all pedigrees. I can't stand the Drago progeny I've seen and others LOVE them. And I love love love the Eqidius lines.
> 
> Wait until you get to Kansas. Visit the KS clubs AND the ST. Louis clubs! Watch the dogs. Work the dogs and learn all you can. Find the ones you like. You'll figure it out


Still, I would love to learn more about lines. I hear and see a lot about DDR and Czech but less about west German WL... Why is that? How do you learn to recognize them in a pedigree? But maybe I should make another post about that?


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

I should perhaps mention that I am almost eighteen, have never had a real mentor (other than what I learned from my own experience from age seven when my interest in training started), nor have I really had any support on the subject. So I lack a lot which is why I am seeking to gain as much knowledge as I can as the opportunity to have hands on help approaches.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Rosa S. said:


> IV
> 
> Still, I would love to learn more about lines. I hear and see a lot about DDR and Czech but less about west German WL... Why is that? How do you learn to recognize them in a pedigree? But maybe I should make another post about that?


I think you can keep your post all in one spot. It would be easier for you. Let it morph as you need it to  

Because DDR and Czech are the new orange. It's a fad based on people seen the dark sables and being wow'd by them. There are very few DDR dogs, full DDR. The wall came down under Reagan. They all have different qualities based on what they were bred for. WGWL are higher prey. Czech are higher aggression/ higher suspicion. DDR are great trackers. I like a nice WGWL/Czech mix. When done right the prey and aggression are nicely balanced. 

You can look at the pedigrees to see what they are. My male is WGWL (SZ), Czech (Suchno), Belgian (LOSH) and East German (DDR).





 Seger vom Sitz von der Hose


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Seger vom Sitz von der Hose




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Jax08 said:


> I think you can keep your post all in one spot. It would be easier for you. Let it morph as you need it to
> 
> Because DDR and Czech are the new orange. It's a fad based on people seen the dark sables and being wow'd by them. There are very few DDR dogs, full DDR. The wall came down under Reagan. They all have different qualities based on what they were bred for. WGWL are higher prey. Czech are higher aggression/ higher suspicion. DDR are great trackers. I like a nice WGWL/Czech mix. When done right the prey and aggression are nicely balanced.
> 
> ...


Aha, thanks. I had heard something along the same line, but it seems super hard to just find random information without knowing the right questions to ask (Google). One of these days, I shall post some of Shylah's background. It is not particularly impressive as far as I'm concerned (too long bred for pets/backyard Breeders). But I would like to find out exactly what's back there.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Rosa S. said:


> IV
> 
> Still, I would love to learn more about lines. I hear and see a lot about DDR and Czech but less about west German WL... Why is that? How do you learn to recognize them in a pedigree? But maybe I should make another post about that?


West German working lines are the most common, and the basis for most things you hear about working lines in general. All those dogs named above are WGWL. Most of the more well known dogs are. People don’t tend to broadcast they have WGWL like the the others do. There’s a lot of marketing involved IMO. There’s a lot of mixing between working lines that happens. The breeders they only breed East German lines are the only ones I know of who strictly avoid mixing. It’s rare for me to see Grim z Pohranicni straze for instance when without Aly vom vordersteinwald.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

Bearshandler said:


> West German working lines are the most common, and the basis for most things you hear about working lines in general. All those dogs named above are WGWL. Most of the more well known dogs are. People don’t tend to broadcast they have WGWL like the the others do. There’s a lot of marketing involved IMO. There’s a lot of mixing between working lines that happens. The breeders they only breed East German lines are the only ones I know of who strictly avoid mixing. *It’s rare for me to see Grim z Pohranicni straze for instance when without Aly vom vordersteinwald.*


Curious why it is rare? 

I have a czech x and a full czech (both my girls are closely related) with no Aly. 

My one girl has some line breeding on Grim too.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Bearshandler said:


> West German working lines are the most common, and the basis for most things you hear about working lines in general. All those dogs named above are WGWL. Most of the more well known dogs are. People don’t tend to broadcast they have WGWL like the the others do. There’s a lot of marketing involved IMO. There’s a lot of mixing between working lines that happens. The breeders they only breed East German lines are the only ones I know of who strictly avoid mixing. It’s rare for me to see Grim z Pohranicni straze for instance when without Aly vom vordersteinwald.


That is interesting and would answer why I hear that pure DDR and Czech are rare while that is all I see. More names, thanks


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Curious why it is rare?
> 
> I have a czech x and a full czech (both my girls are closely related) with no Aly.
> 
> My one girl has some line breeding on Grim too.


What would you say about the Czech temperament?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Curious why it is rare?
> 
> I have a czech x and a full czech (both my girls are closely related) with no Aly.
> 
> My one girl has some line breeding on Grim too.


I usually see Aly paired with Grim for the Orthos. I suppose rare isn’t the best description there. It is a common combination though.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Bearshandler said:


> I usually see Aly paired with Grim for the Orthos. I suppose rare isn’t the best description there. It is a common combination though.


Orthos?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Rosa S. said:


> Orthos?


Typically referring to hips and elbows. These days could also include back. The things that get checked for breeding primarily. Aly is known for increasing the quality of orthos and Grim doesn’t have a great reputation in terms of orthos.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Bearshandler said:


> Typically referring to hips and elbows. These days could also include back. The things that get checked for breeding primarily. Aly is known for increasing the quality of orthos and Grim doesn’t have a great reputation in terms of orthos.


That was what I was guessing, just didn't want it to be another dog... 😅😅


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

"Apache's Black Diamond II" Apache's Black Diamond II

Só this is a full sibling to Shylah's paternal grandsire. We brought him to Suriname as a puppy, where he later produced Shylah's mother. There is no recognized registry here, BTW.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

"Mollie Dee Troxel" Mollie Dee Troxel
If this link works, this would be her maternal granddam's full sister's pedigree. There is some obscurity in Shylah's sire's pedigree that I have been unable to pursue at this point but intend to uncover in the future.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

A lot will depend on who you are talking to, and what they want to see in a pup/adult. Someone producing for Police Dogs are breeding much stronger lines that carry lots of aggression. Those kind typically will not do as well in a family companion home. There are dogs known for aggression, handler aggression, Ortho's - hip,elbow and back production good and bad, allergies, renal issues, etc.... Some people recognize these things, some don't and others don't really care. As also mentioned, you need to look at back massing, as a single time in a pedigree might not show a problem but multiple times, regardless of how far back, can bring issues forward. If you want to talk to someone about pedigrees and what is there, Wolfstraum is a go to for that information. Lee is a gem when it comes to pedigree's, and she will be honest about what is there, whether good or bad..

As for WGWL, and the references to the different prefixes on imports, SV is the German registry, but doesn't mean the dogs are WGWL.... Czech dogs, Belgium Dogs, DDR lines even are registered with the SZ prefix on their registration's. Typically, Czech Dogs are registered with the CMKU (Czech Republic) and Suchno (Slovakia). Belgium breeders register with LOSH, Just like AKC is the recognized FCI registry in the United States. But, you need to know the kennels and lines to know what type of lines the dogs are. It will take lots of time and study to learn what's what, and it's a knack some people easily have.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

mnm said:


> A lot will depend on who you are talking to, and what they want to see in a pup/adult. Someone producing for Police Dogs are breeding much stronger lines that carry lots of aggression. Those kind typically will not do as well in a family companion home. There are dogs known for aggression, handler aggression, Ortho's - hip,elbow and back production good and bad, allergies, renal issues, etc.... Some people recognize these things, some don't and others don't really care. As also mentioned, you need to look at back massing, as a single time in a pedigree might not show a problem but multiple times, regardless of how far back, can bring issues forward. If you want to talk to someone about pedigrees and what is there, Wolfstraum is a go to for that information. Lee is a gem when it comes to pedigree's, and she will be honest about what is there, whether good or bad..
> 
> As for WGWL, and the references to the different prefixes on imports, SV is the German registry, but doesn't mean the dogs are WGWL.... Czech dogs, Belgium Dogs, DDR lines even are registered with the SZ prefix on their registration's. Typically, Czech Dogs are registered with the CMKU (Czech Republic) and Suchno (Slovakia). Belgium breeders register with LOSH, Just like AKC is the recognized FCI registry in the United States. But, you need to know the kennels and lines to know what type of lines the dogs are. It will take lots of time and study to learn what's what, and it's a knack some people easily have.


Thank you.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

Jax08 said:


> I think you can keep your post all in one spot. It would be easier for you. Let it morph as you need it to
> 
> Because DDR and Czech are the new orange. It's a fad based on people seen the dark sables and being wow'd by them. There are very few DDR dogs, full DDR. The wall came down under Reagan. They all have different qualities based on what they were bred for. WGWL are higher prey. Czech are higher aggression/ higher suspicion. DDR are great trackers. I like a nice WGWL/Czech mix. When done right the prey and aggression are nicely balanced.
> 
> ...


What is NHSB in registration?


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

Rosa S. said:


> What is NHSB in registration?


Dutch


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

going to Brazil? find a breeder there(there are many) and work in exchange for knowledge/training.


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## Rosa S. (Jan 9, 2022)

dojoson41 said:


> going to Brazil? find a breeder there(there are many) and work in exchange for knowledge/training.


Yes, I am aware and have had brief contact with two GSD Breeders there as well as several doberman Breeders. The only difficulty is where I will be. Most of the breeders are in the south (so as not to insult the Brazilians, the Southeastern and Central Western regions). I will be in the North. I still hope to find a trainer (in protection work) or club that I can work with and learn from. Which breeders do you know of in Brazil?


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## Angieodell (9 mo ago)

I would like someone to help me out on reading my GSD papers.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Angieodell said:


> I would like someone to help me out on reading my GSD papers.


Start your own thread and post your dog's pedigree.


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