# Spay From He....



## MrLeadFoot

Well, I decided to bite the bullet and have my bitch spayed. Before I finally made the appointment for her at 10 months, I went into my vet and asked about all the common potential problems that I might encounter.

Well, last Tuesday, the procedure was done. I picked her up and took her home. First thing she did was poop and pee. Everything was normal. The next day I dosed her with Metacam (anti-inflammatory) and sedated her mildly with Acepromazine.

On day 3 she started getting diahrrea.

On day 4, I saw that a stitch had undone itself. Boy, was that a bear to retie with such short amount of thread there.

At 5am on day 5 she vomited a horrendous 6 upchucks in one shot in 6 different spots in the house nearly all at once. This vomit was unbelievable, to say the least. It was totally rancid and actually smelled like poop!

I was beginning to wonder if they wired her up wrong, or something, that's how bad it smelled. It was as dark as Hershey's chocolate, too. For 4 hours, I ran between 6 spots, all over my 3300 sq. ft. home, trying to blot it all up before it dried. I then switched to a bland diet of rice and cottage cheese to try and dry her up.

This morning, day 6, I called the vet first thing. They told me that it's probably the meds and I should stop. They also asked if she had blood in her stool. What the....???? are they talking about? Sounds to me like it's not so rare, what I am experiencing after a spay! Why didn't they tell me about this potential side effect when I asked? GRRRR!

It gets better. While she only vomited that one time, albeit 6 in one, she now indeed has bloody diahrrea. I am so pissed that I had her spayed. Never again.

Any help (hope) would be greatly appreciated. Even if some of you don't like me, please don't hold it against my dog.

Thanks in advance.


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## pupresq

Yikes! Sorry your pup is going through all that. I don't know what's going on with her. In literally hundreds of dogs I've had come through here and get spayed, I have never put a dog on metacam nor do I commonly use ace, and have never had a dog have the problems you're describing. The occasional popped stitch yes, and even the odd seroma (fluid filled swelling near the incision), but these have been minor issues and the dogs have recovered without incident. Don't know about not so rare for them or not, but it's definitely rare overall. Other than maybe a vomit or two the day or surgery, that should be it. 

Do you know what kind of anethesia your vet clinic uses? I wouldn't think that would still be causing problems 6 days later but old fashioned injectable anesthesias do seem to cause more problems in general than more modern gas anesthesias like isoflurane.


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## Fodder

sorry to hear about your experience, unfortunately i don't have any help to offer. it always takes me by surprise when i hear such bad spay stories because all of my females came thru just fine, as well as the many dogs i've fostered. it can surely be from complications or stress from the surgery - but i'd point my fingers at the medications. a decade ago, bloodwork, fluids, "comfort packages" and pain meds weren't pushed, recommended, or sometimes even required the way they are now days. shelters also don't do any of the extras and i'd imagine that their vets routinely spay and neuter more pets then other hospitals.

i will always have my future females spayed... it will just be a matter of "thanks bu t no thanks" to the extras.


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## IliamnasQuest

Sorry you're having such a tough time - actually, sorry your DOG is having such a tough time!

I'd be willing to bet it's the meds and not the actual spay that's the problem. In the "old" days (back when I was a vet tech) they didn't give meds afterwards - the dogs were sent home with instructions to keep them quiet and to not let them lick. And those who followed those instructions rarely had any problem. Nowadays they want to give pain meds and all that. Those additional meds can add stress to an already stressed system, in my opinion.

I'm not sure why they had you give her Ace after she came home - she'd already been anesthetized so to give her a tranquilizer afterwards seems like WAY overkill to me. That right there could be part of the problem, if you're still using the Ace at all. Anesthesia/sedation often causes nausea.

Metacam, like other pain meds, can cause stomach problems. Dark vomit can indicate blood in the vomit, which is probably why they asked about bloody diarrhea. DEFINITELY stop the Metacam and if you've given her anything else for pain (aspirin, etc.) stop that also. 

Anyhow - what I would do in your position is to maintain her on a bland diet of rice and boiled chicken (boiled by you so you know what ISN'T in it). Remove the skin/fat and boil the lean chicken and then you can use the broth, too, to make sure she's hydrated enough. You may want to do this for a week or so, and then wean her back onto her normal food.

The pulled stitch is not unusual if she was active at all. A single jump can pull out stitches and it's VERY difficult to keep a 10 month old calm for the time required to get the incision healed. In addition, dogs easily lick sutures loose. As long as the incision isn't swollen and red/inflamed she should be fine. If she acts like the incision is uncomfortable, or there's some redness, you can use warm compresses on it (pad of paper towels in hot water, squeeze out all excess water). 

If she continues to vomit and/or have bloody diarrhea, then a trip into the vet is probably a good idea. I wouldn't be too upset with them, however - what you're probably seeing is your dog's sensitivity to the pain meds and that is not something their fault. If there was something wrong with the spay (internal bleeding, infection, etc.), she should have had major problems by now.

Hope she gets better soon!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## BowWowMeow

I'm sorry your dog isn't feeling well. I would bet money that the reaction you're seeing has everything to do with the Metacam and nothing to do with the spay and _that is why the vet told you stop the meds and asked about bloody diarrhea_. 

Metacam side effects:

(from FDA website):

When giving a pet an NSAID, watch for these side effects, which are listed on the Client Information Sheet and on the drug label:

* Decrease or increase in appetite
* Vomiting
* Change in bowel movements (such as diarrhea or black, tarry, or bloody stools)
* Change in behavior (such as decreased or increased activity level, seizure, aggression, or lack of coordination)
* Yellowing of gums, skin, or whites of the eyes (jaundice)
* Change in drinking habits (frequency or amount consumed)
* Change in urination habits (frequency, color, or smell)
* Change in skin (redness, scabs, or scratching).

From Vet website:

"The most common side effects of meloxicam are nausea, appetite loss, vomiting or diarrhea. If any of the above are noted, meloxicam should be discontinued and the pet brought in for a liver enzyme and renal parameter blood test. In most cases, the reaction is minor and resolves with symptomatic relief, but it is important to rule out whether or not the patient has more than just a routine upset stomach." 

Metacam can occasionally cause liver and/or renal failure, hence the warnings above. 

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2006/506_nsaid.html
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1752


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## BowWowMeow

I would get the tests recommended above done to be sure she is ok now that you've stopped the meds.


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## Remo

I have had hundreds of female fosters who had just been spayed stay with me and I can only think of a few that had problems afterward, and certainly none had anything like your poor girl went through.

As the others said, I'd be willing to bet it was the meds. 

Also, take heart in the fact that you will probably never have to worry about your sweet girl getting mammary tumors. It is a horrible fate for a dog. I had to watch a wonderful dog die from this and it is horrendous beyond belief.


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## tony123

Hey there Leadfoot. Sorry to hear about your girl. Please keep us updated. I'm particularly interested, as I'm making the appointment for Dharma sometime this week.

Dharma's had a few throw up spells around the house. Hardwoods make it not so bad. With our Lab Riley, we had all carpet....what a pain in the...


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## allieg

Sorry to hear of your problems.I wouldn't say it is the spay itself.Any dog I have known that has been spayed has had no problems from it.If it continues I would ask for some bloodwork and maybe an XRay.The times my dogs have vomited poopy smelling vomit it was because they had eaten things they shouldn't have and the body was forcing it out instead of blocking them up.Hopefully it is over and she can heal now.


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## aubie

I agree, my bet is on the meds. We didn't get any medications post-op. Well, we did get some pain pills/anti inflamatories only to use if she looked like she was in pain, but we never used them, and we had no problems. In fact, mine was up and going by the next afternoon.

did you stop the medications? can you tell any difference?


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## MrLeadFoot

Thanks all, for the replies.

To clarify, I gave her the Metacam starting the day AFTER the surgery, per the vet's instructions. After the throwing up episode on early Sunday morning, I did giver her the metacam about 4 hours later, after which she promptly had a diahrrea movement that blew my mind. She actually shot a stream of clear fluid, which shocked the crap out of me. I mean, it came out like a stream of urine; straight out just like urine, looked like urine and everything, but it was coming out of her butt!

Last night when she had the bloody diahrrea, she acted like she was scared of it. After going, she immediately ran away from the area. This morning, it was a chore to get her to even enter her pea gravel litterbox. I had to coax her into it, and when I finally got her into it, she peed and immediately ran out of there, even though her pee stream and had not completely finished.

I fed her abut an hour later, again rice and cottage cheese. Usually, after she eats, if she hadn't gone poop already in the morning, she goes poop. I took her outside to her litterbox, and she won't even step foot in it.

I'm going to call the vet about the bloody diahrrea, and at this point I feel that I should not have to pay for any further treatment that may be required. I mean, I did discontinue the Metacam after the vomiting occurred, although I did give her one more dose. This dog was completely fine healthwise when I took her in, so I realy feel that if they want me to pay for any other treatment, it should not financially be my obligation.

I did tell them the vomit was dark brown, too.

It's interesting that although many of you have voiced your opinions on it being the meds, it doesn't seem like any of you are all that concerned with the bloody diahrrea. To me, that seems to be a something to be concerned about, should it not?

Also, she did have bloodwork PRIOR to the surgery, and everything looked normal. are you saying that I need blood work again?

My sister is a vet tech, unfortunately in another state. She says that it is entirely possible, and not rare, that she may have developed an overabundance of bacteria in her GI tract, that was the result of high stress of the overall visit for the spay, which can occur not from the spay itself but from the actual visit, where they're put in a holding "run" before and after the surgery. She says that she probably needs metronidazole to kill off the excess bacteria which is causing irritation to the GI tract, hence the bloody diahrrea. She says a stool sample may be in order.

I remember reading on here about this "extra" bacteria condition. What do you guys think, and if it's plausible, any ideas that might curb this WITHOUT a trip to the vet, if the vet requires that I take her in? I mean, I don't think that the vet would be able to diagnose her at this point by seeing her, as she looks and appears fine otherwise, and a visit with her will only result in more money. I would think, if anything, a fecal is all that would be needed, and if they did ask to see her, it would be an extra charge for nothing, does that make sense?

Thanks, all, for the replies.


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## pupresq

I would be VERY concerned about the bloody diarrhea, I just think it's unlikely to be because of the spay surgery itself. I think the "fear" stuff sounds like she's in some pain and discomfort from all the GI stuff and it's pronounced when she goes to the bathroom, which is why she's associating pain with her bathroom areas and avoiding them. 

I would definitely have her into the vet or possibly another vet and be checked out. The blood work would be to rule out some type of organ disfunction resulting from the meds or possibly internal infection, so the pre-op meds would not be sufficient (because she didn't have the problem then).


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## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootIt's interesting that although many of you have voiced your opinions on it being the meds, it doesn't seem like any of you are all that concerned with the bloody diahrrea. To me, that seems to be a something to be concerned about, should it not?


Yes, and I'm pretty sure that's what everyone means. NSAIDs like Metacam can cause digestive upset - look at Ruth's post of potential side effects from late last night. Some dogs react badly to NSAIDs and can develop liver or kidney issues, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to have blood work done again to see if anything has changed. Often, the levels are elevated temporarily but then everything returns to normal after stopping the meds but long term damage is also possible.


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## MrLeadFoot

Pupresq and Cassidy's Mom. Looks like I was editing my last post when you posted. Can you please take a look at what I added to the end, and comment?

Thanks again.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I think you're referring to SIBO - small intestine bacterial overload? SIBO is not diagnosed with fecal test, there's a blood test for cobalamine/folate levels. Metronidazole is the usual treatment if she picked up Giardia, but for SIBO the treatment is 4 weeks of antibiotics, usually Tylan or Tetracycline.


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## allieg

I would get bloodwork done again to see if there is infection somewhere.I did that with both dogs and good thing with Lexi because about a month or 2 later she was doing the poopy vomit and when they redid the blood work the levels were the same.They had a baseline to go by.She had eaten her toy and blanket which I didn't realize and that's what was causing the problem.When Athena had water that looked like cranberry juice coming out of her butt,they did blood work and it showed infection and a gastric bleed.I'm sure after some metronidazole she'll be fine. If any of this is caused by the spay it is more likely stress related not the surgery itself.Get a vet visit to make sure everything is OK.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Even if it were something like a SIBO or extra-bacterial infection of other type (I am not even sure what those are-sorry-but I know what you are saying I think) she would need to be seen by a vet. 

Bloody diarrhea is very scary to me. There are different colors of blood that tell where the blood is coming from, but here would be my MEGA NEUROTIC SUPER WORRY---that something was nicked in surgery---and here is my disclaimer for that-I don't even know if that's possible, but that is where my mind would go. 

Is she eating well? Drinking? 

I would see them maybe one more time with her-I would want a serious sit down and discussion of everything that this could be. Could she have encountered some kind of parasite or infection there-did they have any dogs with parvo in clinic, stool samples-can they do the giardia antigen test or just a regular fecal, I would bring in samples of the vomit and the bloody poo. I would be worried about an obstruction as well. 

I would obviously be worried about a lot. I don't mean to panic you or make it worse, it's just how I am and I apologize to anyone reading this who is like, whoa...the dog might just need some time and some mild meds but unless you really trust your vet, and that they will puzzle something out as if it is their own dog or child, I go to these places. 

I think this needs to be puzzled out. Completely and concisely. 

Let us know. This is concerning and not something I've ever seen with a spay either. Kyah's adhesions, yes. 

Good luck-poor thing.


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## pupresq

I find that bacterial overgrowth from stress following a vet visit is pretty uncommon but that a lot of vet clinics diagnose "stress" as a catch all to cover cases of diarrhea without a known cause. I'm basing my opinion mainly on the fact that we later discover alternative biological causes for a lot of supposedly "stress" induced dog diarrhea. 

Metro is a good drug for clearing up diarrhea but without knowing the cause, I'd be reluctant to go there without more info. The purpose of the vet visit would be for follow up bloodwork. I'd want to know specifically about white count, and liver and kidney function. If all those look normal, I might try the metro and see if it helps. My worry would be that she's having some kind of severe reaction to the meds or an undiagnosed infection because of poor surgery practices or something. I don't think either of those is highly likely but they're possible and bloodwork seems to me the best way to rule them out.


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## LisaT

Another vote for the meds. 

When was the last dose given, and have you seen any difference in the diarrhea. 

Not be alarmist, but (online) I've seen Rimadyl kill a healthy dog after two doses. Metacam is suppopsed to be less toxic. Even after Max bloated (a very major surgery), I used the Metacam only some, at low doses, and went with the homeopathics instead - that's how scary I think these meds can be. 

I would have follow-up bloodwork done, even if this is clearing.


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## pupresq

To clarify - a single episode of stress diarrhea is not uncommon. I just wouldn't expect it to last days nor to cause SIBO without other underlying stuff going on as well.


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## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANEven if it were something like a SIBO or extra-bacterial infection of other type (I am not even sure what those are-sorry-but I know what you are saying I think) she would need to be seen by a vet.
> 
> Bloody diarrhea is very scary to me. There are different colors of blood that tell where the blood is coming from, but here would be my MEGA NEUROTIC SUPER WORRY---that something was nicked in surgery---and here is my disclaimer for that-I don't even know if that's possible, but that is where my mind would go.
> 
> Is she eating well? Drinking?
> 
> I would see them maybe one more time with her-I would want a serious sit down and discussion of everything that this could be. Could she have encountered some kind of parasite or infection there-did they have any dogs with parvo in clinic, stool samples-can they do the giardia antigen test or just a regular fecal, I would bring in samples of the vomit and the bloody poo. I would be worried about an obstruction as well.
> 
> I would obviously be worried about a lot. I don't mean to panic you or make it worse, it's just how I am and I apologize to anyone reading this who is like, whoa...the dog might just need some time and some mild meds but unless you really trust your vet, and that they will puzzle something out as if it is their own dog or child, I go to these places.
> 
> I think this needs to be puzzled out. Completely and concisely.
> 
> Let us know. This is concerning and not something I've ever seen with a spay either. Kyah's adhesions, yes.
> 
> Good luck-poor thing.


These things are EXACTLY what I am thinking. You cannot be over-analyzing or causing extra worry, for me. I'm already anxious about this. I think bloodwork and a fecal are indeed needed. There's obviously SOMETHING amiss here.

FWIW, I have considered the possibilty that she may have caught something while there. I'm not sure if this matters, but should I take comfort that my dog is very alert and all, despite the bloddy diahrrea?


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## pupresq

> Quote:I'm not sure if this matters, but should I take comfort that my dog is very alert and all, despite the bloddy diahrrea?


ABSOLUTELY you can!







That is a hugely positive sign. If she were my dog, I would definitely bring her in for bloodwork and a fecal, but you should definitely take comfort in the fact that she's alert and otherwise pretty normal.


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## MrLeadFoot

Ok, from what you said, I now doubt it's that, because the blood is bright red. I would think that if the bacteria thing is in the small intestine, the blood would have time to oxidize by the time it hit the end of the route, and that the blood would be dark, whereas if the problem was in the lower intestine, then the blood would be light in color, which is what it is. (Please remember that I am now reaching.)


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## pupresq

Well... i hate to be a killjoy, but it could be multiple things. When you said before her stool was "tarry" do you mean in consistency or also in color? Because black or very dark poop can indicate an upper GI bleed. Bright red spots are indicative of a lower GI thing. From what you're saying about the behavior and symptoms, I think at the very least she's got an inflamed GI tract and is very uncomfortable when she poops. But of course there are various reasons for that. It could be something as simple as she had a mild hookworm infestation but the surgery weakened her enough that it flared up. Hopefully it's something easy like that. Parvo is unlikely at her age and I'm assuming she's vaccinated. Plus 6 days out, she'd be in a lot worse shape than she is, so that's something! Spay surgeries really are pretty straightforward, at least on a young dog who has never had puppies, so the chance of a surgical complication isn't too high. Not to be too graphic but when they do the spay, they use a blunt hook thing to grab the Uterus (which is kind of looks like a rubber band Y) and they pull it up out of the body cavity to be cut. The ovarian ligaments are "strummed" or plucked by hand, so there shouldn't ever be a time that there's anything sharp actually down in your dog, making an accidental perforation much less likely with this kind of surgery than some others.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I agree with Jean, pupresq and Lisa - take her in, talk to the vet, and bring samples. I would be very concerned and request further tests if it were my dog. If she seems to be feeling okay, that's better than if she were obviously not feeling well, but by itself, that's not enough for me to just wait and see.


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## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: LisaTAnother vote for the meds.
> When was the last dose given, and have you seen any difference in the diarrhea.


Last dose was Sunday at 10:00am.

Over the entire time she's been home:

Tuesday immediately after surgery, her poop was fine. 24 hours after her first dose of Metacam, her poop started to get softer. Over the next 4 days, her poop got progressively worse and the color progrssively lighter.

Since the LAST dose, while her poop is no longer pure liquid, it is lighter in color, and is like cowpies, but with shiny coat to it, akin to what I think would be a mucous coating. And, it NOW has a few specks of blood in it and has an orange tint to it (I guess yellowish + blood = orange?).



> Quote:Not be alarmist, but (online) I've seen Rimadyl kill a healthy dog after two doses. Metacam is suppopsed to be less toxic. Even after Max bloated (a very major surgery), I used the Metacam only some, at low doses, and went with the homeopathics instead - that's how scary I think these meds can be.
> 
> I would have follow-up bloodwork done, even if this is clearing.


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## pupresq

Orange can also be indicative of certain kinds of bacterial infection. The timeline coupled with known side effects of the med sure does make it sound like the Metacam is the culprit here. I'd definitely want to take her in for diagnostic bloodwork and a fecal to make sure there's no lasting harm and rule out any kind of parasite complication.

ETA: the recent appearance of the bright red blood spots may just be from irritation to the lower GI from the diarrhea.


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## MrLeadFoot

I just called vet, and explained everything to them. They want to see her. I asked if this was going to cost me anything. I was told my the girl who answered the phone that I would have to pay for the re-check. I told her that I have an appointment on the 12th that's cosidered a re-check and that is included, why isn't a complication like this included. I said I understood if other meds were needed, or something, but would appreciate if they would work something out with me. She said she'd check with the docs, and get back to me.

1) Am I being unreasonable? I can't tell anymore because of my emotions about this.

2) Was it acceptable for her to put me off until she checks?

3) Am I being stupid, and I should make an appointment regardless, or should I grill them further over the phone to see what their steps would be at this appointment? For example, will they say possible blood test, and fecal test, and if they don't ask, assume that they suck?

4) FWIW, this place sends out fecals. When I told my sister the vet tech that this place sends out fecals, she was shocked and said that might mean two days for a response, and that they should at least be able do a preliminary screen.

I ask these questions because I wonder if they don't bring up bloodwork, fecal and such, maybe I should start calling around for other vets?

Thoughts more than welcomed here, because I maybe am too close to this to think clearly.

Edit: Just to show highly I value all your opinions, I am not picking up the phone until I hear back from you guys. I also want to say that regardless of our differences in opinions about training and such, I think we have a comraderie that cannot be shaken when it comes to the collective well-being of all our dogs, which is why I value this so much. Thank you again for your support.


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## pupresq

If they're going to charge you full prices for everything I might take her somewhere else if there's another clinic you feel good about and can get her in quickly. Being seen ASAP is the most important thing here. However, I do find that a lot of places are reluctant to admit any fault (even understandable fault) so if it really is the meds, you might have better luck getting a straight answer out of folks other than the ones that prescribed them. 

Most places at least do a fecal float and microscope exam in house. It would surprise me if they didn't.

I hope they give you a financial break on this but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't. It seems like most places don't, even if it's a complication from something they did. And it's sort of understandable, as long as what they did wasn't malpractice, they couldn't know your dog would have a bad reaction.

Going back to what Camerafodder said - I definitely think less is more when it comes to spay and neuter surgeries. We don't do any of the extras and our fosters come through great! Anesthesia gas, is the only exception to this. There it's definitely worth the extra money.


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## Cassidy's Mom

It may be that the person you spoke to on the phone does not have the authority to waive charges. That doesn't necessarily mean that the doctor won't be willing to work with you. Again, for ME, I would bring her in ASAP and worry about the money later rather than getting a committment to waive charges before making the appointment.


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## pupresq

Totally agree!


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## BowWowMeow

I don't think my vet would see my animals for free but I do agree they should be able to do some fecal work there in the office. If it were me I would want to rule things out with some tests, as people have suggested. If there's even a small chance that there is something serious going on you want to take care of it right away! 

And, again, the bloody diarrhea is listed as a side effect of the Metacam:

* Vomiting
* Change in bowel movements (such as diarrhea or black, tarry, or bloody stools)

And it could also be from straining. 

My dog had a horrible reaction to a narcotic a few months ago. The e-vet gave her the narcotic but I did not trust them at all so I waited until the regular vet opened and took her there. I did not take her to my regular vet because it was too far of a drive. It cost me $75 b/c it was an emergency appt. at a regular vet (and I am REALLY tight on money right now) but it was absolutely worth it for my peace of mind.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Whatever it is-from my catastrophicizing to the meds or whatever, I hope she is feeling better soon.


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## allieg

If it ends up being surgery related I would expect the care for free or a discount.I mean surgery related as they knicked something and that is causing problems, ETC.If it is totally unrelated to the surgery then I would expect to pay for the service. 

I was ticked with Athena's bad week.The first appt the vet didn't want to do anything just gave us pills the next day I took her back because she was bad and it cost me the total amount of the exam and bloodwork and pills.I would have liked a discount since I had just seen them and maybe if he had done his job I could have been saved some money.


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## LisaT

I too hope she is feeling ASAP. 


I would get her in regardless of the $$$, knowing that if they aren't reasonble, then it's vet shopping time. 

I've never heard of a vet giving ACE after a spay. 

With luck, with all the meds stopped, she will heal quickly. I would get some Arnica homeopathic pellets for any residual muscle pain and trauma.


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## Cassidy's Mom

He's offline right now, hopefully he's on the way to the vet.


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## RebelGSD

I also think it is the reaction to the medicine. I had a very resistant and food-crazy foster stop eating on the Metacam.

I had several fosters that had bloody diarrhea, as you described it.
One looked very dramatic, I took her to the ER, they checked for parasites and whatever and then sent us home without diagnosis. She was dewormed at the ER. The bloody diarrhea disappeared and she acted as if nothing had happened. This was an incident after a two-day transport and the transporter told me that the stress can do this to sensitive dogs, they see it not infrequently. 

Even though bloody diarrhea looks very dramatic (it did freak me out totally) the dogs recovered with ease and quickly. My experience does not mean that this cannot be a sign of something serious.

It is unfortunate that these meds are distributed like candy without proper education of the owner about the side effects.

My puppy had an allergic reaction to the puppy vaccines and had a similar vomiting and diarrhea reaction as you describe, a faucet on both ends. He got an injection to curb the allergic reaction.


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## selzer

I feel for you. 

When I spayed Arwen she had just turned seven. She had a single puppy in her that the vet was too large, but she had uterine inertia and we did a c-section. I thought, well, I will never breed her again, and I do not want pyrometra, so I will have her spayed while she is under anesthetic. 

Big mistake.

Arwen's unterine horns were huge. She had a lot of bleeders to tie off. She was out for a LONG time. 

She was quite groggy when I took her home. She was not right that night. The next day, she started hemorraging from the incision. We lost the puppy. It was just very bad all the way around. When I went to take her to get the staples out, she had done it herself. 

She is ok now though I expect a littl leaking when she sleeps.


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## pupresq

Yes, there is a HUGE difference surgically in spaying an older female, especially one that has whelped some litters, and a young female who hasn't. They uterus is much much larger, there's more blood involvement, older dogs (even fit ones) have more omentum that gets in the way, etc. You can definitely tell a big difference in recovery. When we get pups done, they're practically back to normal the next day but my older girls are like people after surgery - sore and groggy - for at least a couple days.


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## meisha98

So sorry for what you are going through. Very scary, especially where Lainey is just shy of two weeks post op herself. IMO I'd just bite the bullet and go to a vet. There's obviously a problem, your pup is obviously bothered by it (running away from her poop etc.) so please go and get this figured out before anything else happens. They have high pain tolerances etc. so though she may not seem sick (alert etc.)... Good luck and let us know how it turns out.


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## LisaT

LeadFoot, how's your girl doing?


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## MrLeadFoot

OK, here's a recap and what ended up happening.

I had put her on a rice and cottage cheese diet starting Sunday afternoon, and in my experience, within 12 -24 hours, such a bland diet usually takes hold. However, in this case, it did not, and the diahrrea seemed to continue to worsen, and by Monday the blood started showing up.

Yesterday, I asked the vet's office (didn't get to speak to the one of the 4 vets themselves) what they would do for her if I brought her in. They said the would re-check her incision, check her temperature, heart rate, in other words nothing different than I am able to do at home. I asked if they would do bloodwork, or if I should bring a fecal sample, which I already had prepared. The girl said, "If it would make you feel better."

When I heard that it became apparent that this was not a serious issue, at least not in the vet's world. I put two and two together, and started believing that all your collective experiences enabled you all to give me sound advice... that damned medicine was the culprit.

The vet's office said I could either bring her in, "if it would make me feel better", or just come in a pick up a prescription. I asked what it was, and they said metronidazole, just like my sister had said.

I then called a different vet, told them I was NOT a client, but asked if they would hear me out in the interest of helping a dog. They were more than willing, so I explained my plight, and what my vet's next proposed course of action was. They said they would be doing the same thing. They were really nice to offer their opinion like that, so I decided to stay the course with my vet for the time being.

By the time the metronidazole was ready to be picked up, it was later in the afternoon, and my dog still hadn't pooped since Monday night, which I thought was either a good sign, or that she was REALLY scared to go, presumably from the pain of going. But, I would think that if she still had the runs, she probably wouldn't be easy to hold it, so she MUST be getting better if she hadn't pooped anything, right? Nevertheless, I was already stressed out, so I gave her a tablet of the metronidazole.

After another dinner of rice and cottage cheese, she went potty, or should I say pea-ty. What came out was tiny little piece of solid poop the size of a piece of pea gravel. That's it. I took that as a VERY good sign, because at least it was not in liquid form, and she probably doesn't have much in the way of anything that can be pooped really, since she's been on only cottage cheese and rice, right?

In either case, I can't believe that the metronidazole would have that quick of an effect in 4 hours, so I think the metacam was the bahstahd that caused all this and that stopping the metacam was indeed the right thing to do, and going to the bland diet is reall helping, but since the irritation was so bad, and the fact that the metacam was still in her system, the bland diet was just taking longer to become effective than usual. 

So, although I'm being told that completing the met cycle would not hurt if my thoughts are correct, I'm thinking of NOT giving her any more metronidazole for now, start feeding her rice and some of her regular kibble in place of the cottage cheese, and see how she does. I mean, I'd hate to give her any more meds unnecessarily, even though this is an antiobiotic. As far as completing a cycle on antibiotics goes, I only gave her one of the 20 pills, so I wouldn't think that would be a problem, should I actually need to give her the met later if she continues to have a problem.

What do you all think? I have not fed her yet this morning, and will wait until I hear some opinions, because I am so close to this thing and wonder if I'm not thinking too clearly.

Too make things more stressful, yesterday was my birthday, and I was dealing with this thing practically all day, and my family had plans for me, which we ended up following through with, but I was really only going through the motions. My birthday wish was a simple one - that everything would be OK in the end.


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## Elaine

I don't know if the flagyl is responsible for stopping the diarrhea or not or if it's just part of everything you are doing to stop it, but, yes, it can work to stop diarrhea in just four hours as it is a powerful anti-inflammatory. As your dog was having such a diarrhea problem, I would keep her on it.


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## Alto

I'd call around to find clinics that can do basic bloodwork/fecals/urinalysis immediately - ie they have some pretty basic equipment & people that know how to use it.

If nothing else, your dog's reaction (possible to metacam or other drugs that were given during/after surgery) should be on her file.

Alot of dogs have bloody diarhea & don't show any fear related to pottying - she is either very sensitive or she was very uncomfortable: I'd want my vet to care & say, _absolutely, bring her in for a recheck_ - I'd expect him to charge for post-surgery follow-up/possible complication, possibly discounted to some degree depending on how generous his neuter charges were.

In clinic blood chemistry done on one of those auto-analysers to assess kidney & liver function etc should be quick & inexpensive.


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## RebelGSD

I would evaluate liver function (bloodwork) to make sure that the metacam did not cause permanent damage.

Flagyl/metronidazole can have serious neurologic side effects in rare dogs. Two of my many fosters developed ataxia (the second time I knew) and kept falling down. I would be careful with it in a sensitive dog. It is interesting that the vets never mentioned the ataxia side effect to me.


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## Doc

Can she eat boiled chicken or rinsed hamburger mixed in the sticky rice? I would try that for a few meals then go to kibble. I would not give anymore Metronidazole - I hate it because of the horrible reactions it can cause. I'd also mix a little gatoraid in the water.


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## MrLeadFoot

Well, I decided to defer using the metronidazole, even after I paid $18 for it and gave her that one dose yesterday:

1) Because she has not had diahrrea sunce Monday night. (In fact, she STILL hasn't gone poop since Monday night, except for that tiny little pebble last night.)

2) I didn't want to throw yet ANOTHER med at her, especially if she didn't need it.

I did give her rice again this morning, but I also included 2/3 of a cup of her kibble (Orijen). It's nearly 2pm now, and no poop yet still, and more importantly, no runs.

Regarding the in-house testing, I've checked around at other vets, because I became curious, and it seems like NONE in the area do that any more. I presume it's because I'm in sue-happy California, I don't know.

An interesting thing to note is that ever since the surgery she has not really drunk much water. I know that she should be kept well hydrated during times of vomiting and diahrrea, and she did drink lots of water for a few hours after her massive, and I mean MASSIVE vomiting episode on Sunday (which she did keep down just fine), but ever since then she's not drunk much.

I should mention that prior to the surgery, she was a very active dog. She got three to four hours of high-level activity (frisbee dog) almost every day, and she drank ALOT of water.

I opted for the IV fluids during the surgery, so I am aware that for a bit after the surgery she wouldn't need much water, but it seems like she drinks VERY little now. For example, where I used to fill her bowl 3 times a day, as well as give her ice cubes, and drinks when out and about, now it seems like I'm only filling it once every two days, which really surprises me, especially with the diahrrea she's been having. I'm wondering if it's because she has had relatively no high-level activity since the spay, although today she is chomping at the bit to go do SOMETHING, but I'm supposed to wait another week. What do you make of the low water intake?

Edit: I should add that today you wouldn't even know she has had such a terrible time, she seems back to her normal self. I can't believe that after 4 days of he||, she seems to have bounced back with a vengeance, although the low water intake has me baffled. Could it be that since she no longer has her reproductive organs, she needs alot less water? After having dogs for over 30 years, and training for over 20, I've never had an altered dog before, so I can only compare to intact dogs and to how she was pre-spay.


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## RebelGSD

Are you sure she is not drinking water from the toilet bowl?


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## pupresq

I've never noticed any difference in water consumption pre and post altering. My guess is that she's drinking less because she's less active right at the moment and because she stomach still feels sensitive. Do you know how to check her for dehydration? As long as she's not dehydrated, I wouldn't worry too much. I think you'll have your regular old dog back before you know it.


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## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: RebelGSDAre you sure she is not drinking water from the toilet bowl?


I am absolutely sure, because she never does, and I keep an eye on that, can keep toilets closed.


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## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: pupresqI've never noticed any difference in water consumption pre and post altering. My guess is that she's drinking less because she's less active right at the moment and because she stomach still feels sensitive.


That's what I'm thinking, err... HOPING... but I needed to hear that from someone else, because I've been too close to this black hole for 4 days myself, you know what I mean?







So, thanks for your opinion on that.



> Quoteo you know how to check her for dehydration?


Do you mean the pinch-and-pull skin test? If so, yes. If you meant sticking her with something akin to a water tester you poke into your lawn, then no.



> Quote:As long as she's not dehydrated, I wouldn't worry too much. I think you'll have your regular old dog back before you know it.


I hope so, because I would kick myself in the a$$ for the rest of my life, if ANY of this permanently changes her either physically or psychologically (aside from not having heats, of course). So far, I've been sick to my stomach over my decision to spay, as you might expect. It was for reason like these, unexpected events or not, that I've never before altered a dog. I mean, I was always of the "why play God" camp. I mean, who am I to unnecessarily remove another being's internal organs, you kow what I mean? FWIW, I never previously experienced an unwanted pregnancy, or experienced ANY cancers, tumors, etc., either. The only reason I did it was because of the convenience for my family, because I didn't want to burden my wife and kids with a potentially messy heat, and shoulder them with the huge responsibility of vigilance against unwanted pregnancies. I decided I would not breed this dog, either, so I used the pro-spayer marketing chants of "longer life" and "no pyometra", etc. to help tell myself I was doing the right thing. And, I tell you what... so far, it hasn't been sitting well with me that I had her spayed, and subsequently subjected her to all this, regardless if it was the Metacam or not, because that all came hand-in-hand.

Tony123: If you have your ears on and decide to spay Dharma, I would highly recommend that you ask a million questions now of everyone on this forum, so you are better armed to make the appropriate decisions as far as options are concerned, and are prepared for what I went through. Better to be prepared for the worse and not have any of it happen, than to be caught with your pants down, as you can see from my experience. And, please consider the day of week, too. Notice that everything happened going into a weekend for me, right before my birthday. I couldn't have picked a worse time.


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## pupresq

> Quoteo you mean the pinch-and-pull skin test? If so, yes. If you meant sticking her with something akin to a water tester you poke into your lawn, then no.










No, the pinch skin test should be fine. You can also try pushing your finger against her gums and checking her capillary refill time. They should pink up almost immediately. Is she still peeing? If you can get a good look at volume and color, that would also be an indicator. If a dog is dangerously dehydrated their eyes may appear a little sunken and their skin will feel doughy, but by that time they're pretty bad off. 

My guess is that this poor girl is just like "the less goin' on in my insides the better!" at this point. 



> Quote:So far, I've been sick to my stomach over my decision to spay, as you might expect.


I know! It's so hard when we have to play God to these dogs. I think if you look at the owners on both sides of the spay debate, at least on this forum, what they all have in common is the desire to do the "right" thing for their dog. And you never know which decision you'll be kicking yourself for later. If your dog was dying of mammary cancer or had pyometra, I'm sure you'd feel just as sick over it the other way. It's a tough situation having this much power and yet so little control.









But honestly - in literally hundreds of dogs spayed, they have ALL been just fine. No differences in personality or temperament after the surgery, no negative health after effects of any kind. Yeah, the occasional funky incision and certainly always stress for me on the day of surgery, but they bounce back and ultimately I've never been sorry I did it. Crossing fingers this will be your experience too! 

For those contemplating a spay - my best advice, as MrLeadFoots is, is ask a lot of questions, but it's also to think twice about some of the "extras" so many clinics are peddling now. Yes, none of us wants our dogs to suffer, so when they start offering pain meds, your natural inclination is to say "of course!" but sometimes less really is more. When I get a dog spayed I ALWAYS opt for a gas anesthesia (typically isoflurane). This also goes along with intubation (because the gas is administered via the tube along with Oxygen) and that is safest for your dog. We often do an injection for pain that is administered before the dog wakes up, but we do not do any additional pain meds post op nor do we give tranquilizers like ace unless absolutely necessary (I did have to go that route when our dog Leo had orthopedic surgery, but that was because he had to stay on bed rest for 6 weeks). For most dogs, they'll be a little dopey the evening of the day of surgery and may barf but by the next day are perky again if a little tender. Within a week they are typically back to normal and the younger the dog the more true that is. Very early spay/neuter is controversial for various reasons but there's no question that puppies bounce back post-op the fastest. It's uncanny actually. Their incisions look practically healed within a couple days and they're usually rolling around like nothing happened within 24 hours. 5-10 month old pups don't recover quite as spectacularly but barring weird complications as in this case they usually recover quickly and without incident. Adult females, especially older females who have had a couple litters, take the longest. I still think it's worth doing but it does take a few days to a week for them to get back to normal. Whenever possible, it's best to avoid spaying a dog in heat or one who is pregnant because there's a whole lot more blood flow to the area and it's harder on the dog but of course sometimes, like with a c-section, it makes sense to go ahead, or if a dog in heat and has had an accidental mating the spay can be less risky than the mismate shot. It all depends on the situation.

Hoping this girl will be back to normal soon. It definitely sounds like she's on the road to recovery. 

And a belated Happy Birthday!


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## MrLeadFoot

Nice write up! Let me ask you something, about the options, if you don't mind. Here's what I went with, and I am curious to hear what you would do. This might also help others considering spaying.

Oviohysterectomy $182
Chem 6/CBC/Electrolytes (pre-op bloodwork) $64
IV Catheterization & 1 Liter $73
Metacam $45
Acepromazine $18

Including an additional $18 for metronidazole, which I ended up not using, this procedure set me back a whopping $400! We already know that Metacam was a complete disaster for me, and you've mentioned that you would pass on it, too, but what about the other options? I mean, if I had not done the Metacam that would've saved me $45, as well as saved me the additional $18 for the metronidazole I got later, presumably to reverse part of the problems the Metcam caused. So, would you have done the IV fluids and the bloodwork? Seems to me that this procedure really could've cost me only $182 if I went bare bones, but this was my baby, and who wouldn't want the "best" for their babies? No one tells you about all the problems those "bests" can cause, so I'd like to know what someone with as much experience as you have would do.

And, FWIW, tonight I fed all Orijen kibble. Although still skittish about it, my dog finally went poop and it was a normal stool. A bit light in color, and very low quantity (because I'm slightly underfeeding her right now to ease her system back to normal), but nonetheless a huge improvement.

Since it's been 8 days now, her incision looks completely shut, and she's getting a bit stir-crazy, I played some low-level-toss, short-distance (30 ft.) fetch with her for about 5 minutes late this afternoon, just to take the edge off of her, yet not enough to stress her. Not only did this help take the edge off, she indeed started drinking more water, even though she did not get all worked up, and the weather is not hot where I am. I guess things are looking up. Maybe I'll finally get a good night's sleep tonight!


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## LisaT

I always go out for the stuff that helps during the procedure and possible emergencies, and pre-bloodwork is a must if it hasn't just been done. But pupresq will be better with those details.

I like to use more alternative methods for pain (homeopathic meds, etc.) because I find them often very effective and much easier on the body. And when I do use something like Metacam (after the bloat), I think I only used half-doses. 

And then following any procedure, I put them on a liver supplement for a couple of weeks.


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## BowWowMeow

You can take your dog on leashed walks now. 

I do everything on your list but the pain meds and tranquilizer at the end. I also give Rescue Remedy immediately before and after surgery and Clematis immediately after surgery to help the animal come out of the anesthesia. Both of those are Bach Flower Remedies. I give Arnica afterwards for pain.


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## pupresq

> Quote: Oviohysterectomy $182
> Chem 6/CBC/Electrolytes (pre-op bloodwork) $64
> IV Catheterization & 1 Liter $73
> Metacam $45
> Acepromazine $18


For a foster dog we would forgo the pre-op bloodwork in a young healthy animal. We do go ahead and do it if the animal is a senior or shows any signs of a medical issue because we want to be sure it's safe to spay. I can totally understand wanting to do that for one's own dog, even if it's not necessary, it's still peace of mind. I wouldn't have done either of the drugs and wouldn't do an IV and fluids on a young healthy dog for a spay, even my own dog. On an older dog or a longer procedure, yes. If we do a spay plus some other surgery - like a mass removal - then I'd do IV/fluids also. 

In theory, with a young healthy dog and no complications, you can be in and out in about 30 minutes or less on a spay so there's just no need for a lot of the extra stuff. A neuter even more so. But of course it's not a terrible thing to have an IV line in, just for safety if there is some issue. Again, like the pre-op bloodwork, it's not hurting anything and could help in those rare instances. 

I see a lot of clinics charging extra to use a laser along with their other "extras". The vet I worked for used an electrocaudery unit but she didn't charge extra for it, she just thought it was good medicine. The vet we see now uses a conventional scalpel and it works just fine. He's a good surgeon and the dogs always have small neat incisions.

I hate it when I see clinics charging extra for "monitoring", glad yours didn't. That should just be a given. It's a little dohicky that fits on the intubation tube going to the gas tubes and monitors their breathing. If the resps slow down, you dial down the gas, if they speed up, you increase the gas. It's pretty easy really (used to be one of my jobs as a tech). The gas anesthesia is so safe that I feel more okay not doing the IV and some of the other extras. If the dog starts having trouble, it's easy to wake them up and get them stabilized. Still, none of those things are going to hurt, they just cost.

Honestly, the main place I think you could have saved money and reduced risk, as we've pretty much already established, was the meds. I just don't think they're necessary and as we saw, can cause more harm than they do good. But I completely understand that going into this an owner has no idea and they want to do everything they can to reduce their dog's suffering so pain meds and tranquilizers _seem_ like a good idea.


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## Barb E

I always have them do pre op blood work and the IV cath for Dante.


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## MrLeadFoot

You know what? Alot of this information should really be a "sticky" topic on one of the forums. Especially since altering dogs is something every responsible dog owner considers. That's not to say I ADVOCATE altering in call cases, but since a good many people do it out of responsibility, they deserve to at least know the REAL facts, and not the crap fed to them by vets and know-it-alls.

And, I want to thank everyone who provided support for my dog. Although she seems to still be deathly afraid of her potty area, I believe with some love and understanding on my family's part, she will eventually learn that going potty isn't a bad thing.


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## selzer

I agree with you. 

I think it is the responsible thing to do to contain your dog or bitch and not allow an unwanted breeding. 

However, if I were to rehome an adult dog for any reason, unless it was to someone with the specific idea of breeding (and I feel very comfortable), I will spay/neuter before giving them up. I may be responsible enough to contain my dogs, but I cannot guarantee that for others. 

So far that hasn't been an issue. 

People have been brainwashed into believing that responsible dog owners spay/neuter. And if you do not spay/neuter for whatever reason, you are NOT a responsible dog owner. 

I wish they would at least tell you that there are risks to spay and neuter. Instead you have to go out and research and figure it all out for yourself, trying to fork through people's personal preferences and horror stories to figure out what the actual risk is for you and your dog.


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## meisha98

Try putting a few of her favorite treats just outside her potty area for a few days. Maybe that will help ease her fears. Maybe leave a "good poop" there too - not forever, just a day or two. Just an idea to make her more comfortable and let her know all is okay now. Glad she's recovering and belated Happy Birthday!


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## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: KimcMATry putting a few of her favorite treats just outside her potty area for a few days. Maybe that will help ease her fears. Maybe leave a "good poop" there too - not forever, just a day or two. Just an idea to make her more comfortable and let her know all is okay now. Glad she's recovering and belated Happy Birthday!


Yesterday I took her to the neghborhood park, where she typically goes at least 4 times a week, and I worked some on and off-lead basic obedience. She was happier than a lark. As soon as her feet hit the turf she looked as if she were he heaven. No fetch, no tracking exercise, just low-key heels, sit, stay, down, etc. I let her roam around, too, and she was obviously very excited. So excited, she pooped a normal poop! Can you imagine what it must've looked like to the passerby who might have witnessed the pure joy on my face when that happened?









Today, so far, I fed her two one cup meals and both times she went potty in her potty area. She still runs outta there when she's done, but I think the major PTSD is beginning to wear off.

A side benefit it that she no longer lingers there and sniffs about when she's done. Now, when she's done, she's DONE!

On another note, it is day 10 and her incision is completely healed now. In fact, it actually looks like and old scar, even compared to just yesterday. Whew! Looks like things are looking up.









And, thanks for the b-day wishes.


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## pupresq

Great news!!!


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## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: selzerI agree with you.
> 
> I think it is the responsible thing to do to contain your dog or bitch and not allow an unwanted breeding.
> 
> However, if I were to rehome an adult dog for any reason, unless it was to someone with the specific idea of breeding (and I feel very comfortable), I will spay/neuter before giving them up. I may be responsible enough to contain my dogs, but I cannot guarantee that for others.
> 
> So far that hasn't been an issue.
> 
> People have been brainwashed into believing that responsible dog owners spay/neuter. And if you do not spay/neuter for whatever reason, you are NOT a responsible dog owner.
> 
> I wish they would at least tell you that there are risks to spay and neuter. Instead you have to go out and research and figure it all out for yourself, trying to fork through people's personal preferences and horror stories to figure out what the actual risk is for you and your dog.


The thing that really gets me is that I made a physical visit to the vet to ask pointed questions on the day I made the spay appt., which included side effects, risks, etc., and no one there once mentioned potential medication reactions. In fact, before that, I even called around to different vets asking for info like that. And, of course, everyone I've met with a spayed female claimed no complications whatsoever. But, then again, maybe they forgot about complications from meds, I don't know.

But, if I had known there would have been potential side effects like what I saw with bloody vomit and bloody diahrrea, I would never have opted for those bloody meds (pun intended).

As for the acepromazine, that stuff is STRONG stuff. I'm glad I took the conservative approach and started with a 1/2 dose because she was stumbling around on even the 1/2 dose. After that I only gave her a 1/4 pill at a time.

IF I were to do it again, I would abstain from the Metacam, and use the Acepromazine in small doses just to help take the edge off and keep her relaxed. I would also heed some of the other members' suggestions for a homeopathic pain concoction.

So, on to the next question: People say, as does the vet, that she'll be able to resume her regular activities within 10-14 days. The vet said that when they remove the stitches on Tuesday, she'll be good to go. Do you all think that's really true? I mean, can she really go and jump 8 ft. in the air that soon after the spay, and run full-steam? I was thinking she might possibly rip her ab wall, since she's had next to NO exercise, and I wonder if she needs to be worked back up a bit more gradually than that.

FWIW, she doesn't know better, and really wants to run now.

What do you all think?


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## WiscTiger

Dogs like and breathing thing can have reactions to medications. 

It tried Aceing DeeDee once to try to cut her nails, well never again. 4 hours later and she was still wide awake. Yes she swallowed it and didn't spit it out. 

So you just never know.

I have had two females spayed, Cheyenne who was fine and then there was my poor DeeDee girl. She was right between to heat cycles so her hormones should have been very neutral, but she was terrified of everything for months. Am I concerned about getting my next female spayed that it might happen again, no I think DeeDee was 1 in those 1,000's that have problems.

Val


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## pupresq

By 14 days (assuming your situation where the incision looks good and she seems to feel fine) she really should be back to absolutely normal and able to go do things. Never had any problem in that department in all the dogs we've had spayed. Never another issue with the surgery site. I've seen a few problems (adhesions mainly) from poorly done c-sections, but nothing from spays and hopefully this was a well-done surgery in any case. 

Remember - the ab wall is held together with a totally separate set of very sturdy stitches and the muscle has been forming a nice healed incision right along with the skin. Welcome to normal again! I bet you're glad to be back.


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## selzer

The funny thing about mine is that if it was simply a c-section, they would have sowed the uterous up, and put stuff back together, sowed her up and she would have been done a whole lot quicker. 

Because I chose to spay, they removed the gigantic uterine horns, that had previously held 14 puppies at once. This meant tying off a lot of bleeders and that is what caused her to be out so long. Now, I would rather have let her completely heal from the c-section and then inbetween cycles, hopefully when stuff has shrunk a bit, she could then be spayed. I was hoping to not put her under anesthetic the extra time, that turned out to be a mistake.


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## pupresq

Yes, it's hard to know what to do in those situations. The extra blood flow of having just had pups, definitely makes the whole thing a very different and riskier surgery, on the other hand, like you say - who wants to put their dog under twice, twice the risk, twice the healing time etc.


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