# BAT and LAT and Idiot Owners



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Delgado has always had issues with ignoring other dogs, he thinks all dogs are there to play with and get excited whenever he sees one. Mostly it's a excited bark or sometimes it's a whine and bark which seems to be caused by leaking drive. I've been walking him with a prong for this reason since he was 10 months old, more for control since I'm only 4'11" and he's a very strong dog while in drive especially

I've been working VERY hard on building neutrality using a combination of BAT and LAT with great results. I use treats, a small squeaky toy, a pop with the prong, or my voice to keep his attention on me rather then the other dog. I can get his attention and focus no problem with dogs behind fences even chain link when they can see each other. I can even get him within 5' of a barking lunging dog 95% of the time without him breaking eye contact. Still working on that 5' bubble but considering where he was 6 months ago and that he only just turned 14 months I've been content with his progress. 

Now with all that said, it almost fell apart on our after dinner walk. I walk a dog on each side, so the leashes don't get tangled and I have separate control on each. When we came to the end of our driveway I could see a neighbour walking their small dog (Lhaso I think?) on a flexi leash coming down the road. I headed the opposite direction to start our walk, but only a minute or so in I could feel Jazzy tensing and I glanced behind to see the man walking behind us, maybe about 15' back. Jazzy is very nervous around strangers and dogs especially so I sped up to reach a clear spot off the sidewalk to stop (we still have quite a bit of snow left, there was maybe 2' of grass off the sidewalk in this particular spot). I would have used the road to gain extra space but we were on a main road and there were lots of cars driving by.

I had just hit the spot less then 2 seconds later and nudged Delgado off the sidewalk and onto the grass when I felt Jazzy jump and realized the moron had let his leash go slack and the other dog was up her butt. She ran behind me and I twisted my body to block the dog which caused it to back off when it RAN at Jazzy and she yipped as the dog charged her. Thankfully I still had Delgado on a tight leash because his head whipped around at her yip and he did a rapid fire DEEP bark at this dog which caused both the owner and dog to jump and the dog ran back to it's owner. The owner didn't say a word but walked quickly away down the sidewalk 

As soon as I felt Delgado moving as he started to bark I gave him a good correction with the prong which stopped him from lunging at the dog and chasing it away. He sat on my command and quieted and I waited for the other owner to be at least 60' down the road before releasing him. When I released him his head was down and he was huffing at the ground smelling for the other dog. Jazzy was still shaking and looking around nervously. I sat him again and it took a quick run through of commands to get his attention focused back on me. 

I've never seen him react so harshly to another dog and I can only think it was because Jazzy was scared and he reacted to her fear by neutralizing the threat the best he could. Thankfully the training to sit and listen kicked in very quickly once he realized I had control and Jazzy was ok. The whole situation started and happened within 10 seconds from start to finish

I can't even fathom what this idiot was thinking allowing his dog to run up to others, it's just a good thing he ran to Jazzy's side rather then Delgado's. I hope he learned a lesson that not every dog will appreciate a surprise visitor, especially from behind. 

I'm truly thankful for the help that especially LAT has taught me, it's good to know that both of us have used it so much that it truly is becoming second nature to fall back on if needed. There truly are idiots out there to contend with 

Sorry for the length, comments are welcome of course


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I know that LAT is Look At That but what is BAT?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

People are oblivious. I was at a friend's house when her friend let her beagle become attached to Jax's butt thru the suction of her nostrils....after I had just told her Jax didn't like dogs in her space. And then my friend, who is also a trainer, had a hold of the beagle and told me to throw Jax's frisbee. I thought, "ok, she has a hold of that dog". I threw it and she released the hound. I went home.

the same woman, a week later, let her lab drag her way directly at Jax while I was sitting on the ground. Jax erupted and there I lay on my back holding on to her collar. The rest of the day, she let the lab get in Jax's space every time she was near. Completely oblivious to her surrounding. Again...I went home.

I find that mentally and physically draining to constantly block dogs from owners without a clue.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Behavior Adjustment Training

Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA explains it very well


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> People are oblivious. I was at a friend's house when her friend let her beagle become attached to Jax's butt thru the suction of her nostrils....after I had just told her Jax didn't like dogs in her space. And then my friend, who is also a trainer, had a hold of the beagle and told me to throw Jax's frisbee. I thought, "ok, she has a hold of that dog". I threw it and she released the hound. I went home.
> 
> the same woman, a week later, let her lab drag her way directly at Jax while I was sitting on the ground. Jax erupted and there I lay on my back holding on to her collar. The rest of the day, she let the lab get in Jax's space every time she was near. Completely oblivious to her surrounding. Again...I went home.
> 
> I find that mentally and physically draining to constantly block dogs from owners without a clue.


Totally agree, I actually find the "big bad shepherd" attitude CAN be helpful in some cases where people will automatically go out of their way to avoid you. But I think it gets ruined sometimes by the fact I have a small poodle as well so they seem to automatically think that means he's ok with all dogs, including small ones

He is great with other dogs but I admit I see "lawsuit" in my mind especially with the small ones if the other dog gets so much as a scratch on it. I don't allow play while on leash in any case


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can not manage everyone else in the world. You can only manage you. Why stress yourself out with two dogs at once? That is insane, especially if one or both of them are reactive. 

With the attitude in society of dog parks, pet stores that allow dogs, doggy day care, puppy free for all, etc, a LOT of people do not think another thing of letting their dogs meet and greet other dogs. And if their dog is not aggressive, they do not always know that other dogs might be. 

In fact, when we tighten up on the leash and hold our dogs in a death grip, we are more likely to cause a reaction out of them and teach them to be dog reactive, than having a dog wander on up to them. 

And then there are folks that believe that all dogs should be friendly to dogs and people and if they are not, they should be muzzled or kept at home. 

The thing is YOU have a choice to make. YOU can try to make the whole neighborhood and everyone who enters it, learn your version of doggy etiquette, or you can protect your dog by doing some simple and effective things:

1. Walk them one dog at a time. Only take two dogs out at once if they are both bomb proof and well trained and socialized on their own. 

2. Size up other dogs and their owners and take action long before it becomes an issue. Think the worst. That joker has a serial dog biting maniac on a 50' flexi-lead. That guy has his hands full with that dog, and I am going to stay out of their way. 

3. Keep working with your dog in a class setting with other dogs. Get them used to other dogs walking behind you, walking in front of you, passing by you. 

Always remember that when you point your finger at the other guy, there are three pointing back at you. You can only guaranty your own behavior.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

selzer said:


> You can not manage everyone else in the world. You can only manage you. Why stress yourself out with two dogs at once? That is insane, especially if one or both of them are reactive.
> 
> With the attitude in society of dog parks, pet stores that allow dogs, doggy day care, puppy free for all, etc, a LOT of people do not think another thing of letting their dogs meet and greet other dogs. And if their dog is not aggressive, they do not always know that other dogs might be.
> 
> ...


I don't stress about it. I can drop Jazzy's leash in a emergency situation and she wouldn't move more then two feet from me. Jazzy isn't reactive, she's fearful but trusts me to look out for her. I don't need to focus on her while on a walk, her "reaction" is to scoot behind me and stay quiet. In this case the dog surprised her by running at her and she yipped, she ran behind me and I immediately blocked the dog from touching her so she was fine.

As for Delgado as I already stated this is the worse reaction I've seen from him and I know with 99% certainty it was instinctive from hearing Jazzy's yip and knowing she was uncomfortable. I also said that I've been working on neutrality and getting good results

He's been through two series of group classes with flying colours (puppy and basic obedience), he ignored the other dogs completely and focused on me through both sessions. He didn't have a problem with group classes, *I* did. I didn't like being surrounded by loud barking dogs at both classes (at different locations with different trainers) and I found the clueless owners got all the attention while those who were doing well were ignored. Outside of the trainers wanting my dog for demos I was stuck watching other people struggle through problems. I'd rather spend my money on private lessons focused on our strength and weaknesses 

I'm always proactive, it's a heck of a lot easier preventing then fixing a problem. As soon as the barking started I started working on a solution. 

In this case my first plan as soon as I saw the other dog was "outrun" it by heading off in the opposite direction. No nervous energy, just planning and heading away from the situation. Second plan once I realized that the person was following and was that close was get off to the side and let them pass. I had a tight grip on Delgado's leash so I knew he couldn't move even if he wanted to, that gives me confidence not fear knowing he's under control. The prong wasn't tightened until he barked and a correction was given. 

As for pointing fingers the sidewalk is free space and I never claim to own it, the guy was free to walk anywhere and I stopped to let him pass because the next free space was over 20' away. I make my own space if needed, I don't expect other people to know to give me mine. But outside of jumping into traffic or into a 3' high snowbank I did the best I could


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You're small, so you use a prong collar to control your dog. But you can control two dogs at once. Even though both of them react around other dogs. Ok, one reacts fearfully -- most dog bites are due to fear. And the other barks and needs a correction with his prong. 

You do not like to be surrounded by people working their dogs in classes, because the trainers focus on the people with problems. Whatever. The point of working in a group is so that you can work around distractions, around other people and dogs. I would be happy that I wasn't requiring extra attention, but it seems like you felt short-changed. I like group classes because there are usually people there that are at different levels and I can work around dogs and owners who are not all perfect already. 

If you are 4'11 and need a prong collar to handle your dog, then maybe you should walk the dogs one at a time. There will ALWAYS be people out there that do not ascribe to what you think people ought to be and do. And you can still only modify your own behavior. 

Walking dogs one at a time give you all your attention on one dog, some one on one time with that dog, and when distractions come your way, it is a lot less stressful. 

But since I can only modify my behavior, I will just say that I walk them one at a time, and avoid a lot of situations, and those I can't avoid, I am still in a position to manage because I have just one dog on lead that I am concerned with.

Dogs take a tightening of the leash with heightened awareness. It may give you confidence but it probably gave your dog the opposite and netted him a correction to boot.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Simple physics, if Delgado wants to pull me over he could. He would never do it deliberately but why would I take the chance especially when it would likely result in me, him, or both of us getting hurt. Even with today I can still count on one hand the number of hard corrections I've had to give him with the prong. You know that saying, if the world won't adapt to you, adapt yourself to the world? My size is my size, I don't use it as a crutch but I'd be stupid to not realize my limitations

Group classes are not for everyone, and I never said I was perfect or can't learn. Delgado *lives* to learn and he picks up new commands quickly, and we train everyday. I don't expect a group of 10 people to be all at the same level or be able to move at the same pace. I'm a mover, tell me what you need done and I'll do it and Delgado is the same way. If they work for you then great! Delgado's barking has nothing to do with a group class environment. You seem offended and I somehow implied I felt superior to the trainers or other owners? I'm sorry if I implied that. I went through them because I felt it would be best for my dog, after the second session I felt we had enough group experience 

You keep talking about controlling only yourself and I agree with you. Jazzy got a nose up her bum for a split second and Delgado barked, am I happy Jazzy was scared? No, I corrected her situation as swiftly as I could by placing myself between the dogs. Am I happy Delgado barked? No, I felt through the leash Delgado was going to bark and corrected him before anything outside of barking happened. No harm came to anyone and I now know to pay extra careful attention to this particular person and his dog. Lesson learned and hopefully he learned one too

My family works with a dog behaviorist who has become a good friend. I've seen him work with several different dogs and problems and he's taught me a lot. He's met and worked with both my dogs and seen me work with them as well. His main focus is on energy and I'm aware of mine and my dogs and how we affect each other. I value impartial third person advice especially when they can see things I may miss 

I hear your advice, it doesn't mean I have to take it or that you should be offended if I don't. I truly appreciate your thoughts and the fact you took the time to express them, I'm considering them


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when we have a dog or dogs that are reactive everybody else
is stupid, a moron, oblivious, the other person doesn't know
what they're doing, the other person should have done this,
what's wrong with people, on and on the other person and their dog.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> when we have a dog or dogs that are reactive everybody else
> is stupid, a moron, oblivious, the other person doesn't know
> what they're doing, the other person should have done this,
> what's wrong with people, on and on the other person and their dog.


Frustration, part of me was mad at him for not controlling his dog, the bigger part of me was frustrated for getting caught in a bad situation. No one is perfect, in another few days hopefully the snow will melt more and more space will open to continue training with better boundaries

I never blamed the other person exclusively, I called him names in the post in anger. Jazzy didn't do anything wrong, I didn't see him that close and ask him to back off and Delgado barked at his dog. He could have tried to do a lot worse but didn't


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I usually do get a bug up my bum when people call other people idiots or morons or stupid. It is just something that gets me going. 

I was talking to my sister about the shwings at sheets and how you have to have one of those stupid courtesy cards, and they will give you a sizeable discount. Her three year old let me know that I should not have said "stupid." She also told me to take my shoes off, we were at my parents' house and there is no rule about shoes in the house, but my sister's kids take offense at that as well. So I got an earful. Someday my sister will teach her kids not to reprimand their elders but I digress.

I am about 5'6 and probably a bit heavier than you, but my dogs can easily pull twice what I weigh, and maybe 3 times what I weigh. I do not use a prong collar because I do not need it. I do not hold them by the power in my arms. I don't think any of us could. If you think your dog will bolt or drag you down, and you think the prong will prevent that, then by all means use it. But I have heard this argument over and over again, and it just puzzles me. I think simple physics would have all of our dogs on prongs.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Out of the mouths of babes...young kids do not see grey areas, that's for sure. They're told something and take it as gospel and don't always understand why everyone isn't always on the same page 

Irresponsible dog owners are one of my pet peeves, especially those who compromise their safety for no reason. If Jazzy had turned on his dog and his dog bolted and ran into the road and got hit by traffic I would have felt awful. Or if Delgado has gotten away from me and hurt his dog I would have felt awful as well. I highly doubt he would, but he is a dog and they're not programmable robots who we can control each movement


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## KenziBHolden (Feb 7, 2013)

Good job getting out of the situation without anyone getting hurt! In the future just be careful using the prong to correct your dog every time he sees another dog because it could quickly lead to negative associations. Potentially being, seeing another dog equals pain from prong. I know it takes lots of patience and dedication protecting your dog and keeping him/her below threshold and others out of the bubble and it sounds like you are working really hard on BAT and LAT and doing good! Congrats!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

KenziBHolden said:


> Good job getting out of the situation without anyone getting hurt! In the future just be careful using the prong to correct your dog every time he sees another dog because it could quickly lead to negative associations. Potentially being, seeing another dog equals pain from prong. I know it takes lots of patience and dedication protecting your dog and keeping him/her below threshold and others out of the bubble and it sounds like you are working really hard on BAT and LAT and doing good! Congrats!


He only gets a one quick prong correction (never hard) to snap him out of the bark and then it's a turn and my body goes between them and a knee blocks his head from turning towards the other dog again. Hard to explain, probably looks really funny to a bystander but it works. In this situation I gave him a good correction because the dog was so close I needed him to know I meant business and no funny stuff.

If he huffs or doesn't bark usually it's a bump with my knee if I see him getting too focused to remind him to stay quiet. Verbal works great in those situations, calm speaking to keep him attention on me. A hand signal to bring his eyes back to mind if they stray (one finger points towards him then up to my face)

Funny enough since the incident we haven't run into a single other dog on a walk, go figure lol


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

be glad this idiots dog wasn't off leash, i have had to deal with many of those situations.......LOL At least all the dogs were leashed etc. i agree sometimes the world out there includes idiots with dogs. i have dogs similar to yours. i have had to go off route many times forseeing retractable leash owners. letting their dogs wonder and not in control. i do however walk a safer route if i have the two dogs, and it is much easier to control one dog at a time. but sometimes schedule and life does not allow me to take the dogs separately. we do the best we can being aware of our surroundings and try to make the right decisions., where our dogs are concerned. can't control everything, and hopefully we learn from our experiences.


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