# Horrifying roach backs



## Nurse Bishop

Sieger show 2007 West German Show Lines- Please tell me this is being bred out  They can hardly walk.


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## carmspack

in my opinion - single word -- NO

this is what Linda Shaw tried to bring to attention by education to move to a reasonable and funtcional topline.\The Illustrated Standard for the German Shepherd Dog - first and second editions

deaf ears?

she often said , I hope I am not too late? 

Time will tell.


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## Sunsilver

Here's how much a dog with this sort of conformation will have to distort its legs in order to trot: Imagine the wear and tear on the joints over time!

The tight leash doesn't help, of course...


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## Sunsilver

The leash is mainly to blame for the distortion in the above photo. but even on a loose leash or no leash, these dogs cannot do a proper 2-beat trot. The hind leg will always hit before the front leg.

Here's VA1 Vegas du Haut Mansard:


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## McGloomy

Oh wow....... They sure look beautiful and certain 'people' would most likely breed them... ?


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## huntergreen

Same thing happened with the AKC Showlinegsd. I blame the judges at these shows.


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## Sabis mom

huntergreen said:


> Same thing happened with the AKC Showlinegsd. I blame the judges at these shows.


Absolutely 100%! Stop letting dogs with flawed or non functional structure win. For that matter stop letting them be shown. Do the judges not have the right to simply award to no one?


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## Bella99

Do these dogs even match the breeds standard? If not then shouldn't the judges be replaced if they allow bad dogs to pass?


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## camperbc

Nurse Bishop said:


> Sieger show 2007 West German Show Lines- Please tell me this is being bred out  They can hardly walk.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBiNdqMpwDc


Jeez Nurse Bishop, those dogs look _terrible! _That video is actually difficult to watch! I'm _so_ thankful that our Sheba is not built like that. 

Glen
Focus On Newfoundland


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## Beau's Mom

Oh my word they are ugly and graceless. They all walk like they are trying to potty at the same time, poor dears.


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## Katsugsd

Sabis mom said:


> Absolutely 100%! Stop letting dogs with flawed or non functional structure win. For that matter stop letting them be shown. Do the judges not have the right to simply award to no one?


I had this conversation with a friend of mine who shows her Belgian Shepherd in AKC. I said I would be a cruel judge because I would not award dogs with this extreme conformation. My friend said judges do have the right to not choose a "best dog/bitch" in their class, it's just oftentimes, they feel they have to or aren't willing to be as "firm" (or maybe they do like the extreme)


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## Jax08

The current SV president has plainly stated that the working line is not his vision of the German Shepherd Dog. 
The politics of the AKC conformation ring is just as bad. An ASL breeder and judge explained exactly how thst really works.

Bottom line....don't expect any changes. Lots of money involved.


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## carmspack

the video represents one stud progeny group - Zamp vom Thermodos .

He was a SIEGER "the" representative of the pinnacle of achieving a type 
a breeding goal , a perfection.

Zamp had many many litters . Progeny list for VA1 Zamp vom Thermodos SCHH3 

Now I may be wrong here but was Zamp not the topic of a very recent post on this forum - one of those
check out this pedigree ones, and did someone not say that his hips were not good?
Help me out there .

In any case Zamp had a short life . He died at 8 . There was never any explanation. 

Being one who answers a lot of "what is wrong with this dog's walk, the legs, the cow hocks , the
looseness " threads , I do know that Zamp is on the pedigree .

that video is from 2007 . 
What has happened in the following 11 years? 
That is the important question.
Did we see an improvement to a natural , functional topline .

Are you kidding . I don't see any change and if any it is not in the right
direction . I bet you if you were to look at a more recent video of the BSZS
you would see more exaggeration of a fault.

the system supports and rewards this . 

who will call a spade a spade?


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## cloudpump

Jax08 said:


> The current SV president has plainly stated that the working line is not his vision of the German Shepherd Dog.
> The politics of the AKC conformation ring is just as bad. An ASL breeder and judge explained exactly how thst really works.
> 
> Bottom line....don't expect any changes. Lots of money involved.


Benevolent dictatorship. It's really about the fattest pockets. Reminds me of FIFA scandal.


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## Jax08

cloudpump said:


> Benevolent dictatorship. It's really about the fattest pockets. Reminds me of FIFA scandal.


Nothing benevolent about it. ☺ I think it was the same rant about Deb Z using an ecollar and he tried to punish people worldwide. And the working world stood up and said "uhhhh....just no."


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## cloudpump

Jax08 said:


> Nothing benevolent about it. ☺ I think it was the same rant about Deb Z using an ecollar and he tried to punish people worldwide. And the working world stood up and said "uhhhh....just no."


Really sounds like fifa then! Come across about bringing the world together, but they really are just corrupt. 
It's a shame. The showlines will suffer.


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## Ken Clean-Air System

To each their own, but to my eye the way these dogs move just looks completely unnatural. It boggles my mind why anyone would breed for such extreme and practically crippling conformation ... but then I think of all the other breeds that have been essentially ruined by the show ring and it makes more sense (though I still think it's an abomination).

The show lines have been suffering for many years. It is truly sad what has become of the show line GSD in the 50ish years between beautiful dogs like Bernd, Mutz, etc and today in my opinion.


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## Nurse Bishop

They have made them looked stacked when they're not.


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## cliffson1

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> To each their own, but to my eye the way these dogs move just looks completely unnatural. It boggles my mind why anyone would breed for such extreme and practically crippling conformation ... but then I think of all the other breeds that have been essentially ruined by the show ring and it makes more sense (though I still think it's an abomination).
> 
> The show lines have been suffering for many years. It is truly sad what has become of the show line GSD in the 50ish years between beautiful dogs like Bernd, Mutz, etc and today in my opinion.


So very true!, but people LIKE them!


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## Whiteshepherds

Bella99 said:


> Do these dogs even match the breeds standard?


They're the right color. 



Bella99 said:


> If not then shouldn't the judges be replaced if they allow bad dogs to pass?


I would guess that every handler and owner associated with the dogs in the video thinks those dogs are great. They aren't going to replace judges who share the same mindset. 

In an ideal world, judges would be impartial when entering the ring and base their assessments on how well the dogs standing in front of them conform to the standard, unfortunately, that's not always the case. A lot of handlers/owners avoid or choose to only enter certain shows based on who's going to be judging and/or what other dogs are entered because they understand how the game is played. 



Sunsilver said:


> The leash is mainly to blame for the distortion in the above photo. but even on a loose leash or no leash, these dogs cannot do a proper 2-beat trot. The hind leg will always hit before the front leg.


I've yet to hear anyone with roached back dogs explain why they would intentionally stack a dog to distort the top line into a roach or allow a dog to pull so hard on a leash that it distorts movement, but these are excuses people give when questioned about the roached back, wonky rear assembly etc. Basically they deny the problem exists...it's all an illusion caused by stacking and leashes. Right.


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## Nurse Bishop

What would Colonel von Stephanitz say?


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## carmspack

there can't be a "to each their own" . There is a written and a historical standard.

that conformation is far ooutside of the standard , . It is not functionals.

"they are the right colour" -- well not really because there is no right colour.

there are colourS -- sable , black, bi-colour , black and tan (schwarz braun) 

find me any colour that is not black and red in the show lines.

the SV agenda will not change . Attempts have been made .
There was even a legitately elected SV president who promised big changes.

That was dr Helmut Raiser . 

the message of the SV and the commercial agenda is clear


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## Jenny720

Money is the root of all evil and will always fuel extremes in anything living.


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## Ken Clean-Air System

There will always be a 'to each their own' for the same reason the expression 'there is no accounting for taste' is true ... pretty sure that in the same statement I also said 'crippling conformation' ... I don't like it or think it's right or acceptable, but the people who are in charge and are awarding the conformation trophies don't seem to give two hoots about the written standard ... I'd love to see that change, but when I look at other breeds that have been bred to point of barely being able to function in normal life, much less in a working role (dogs whose conformation barely lets them breathe normally, or eyes that are practically falling out of their sockets) my faith that anyone in the show community is going to do anything but continue to exaggerate the extremes kind of wanes.

As Cliff said, as long as people LIKE them nothing will change ... there's no accounting for taste.


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## carmspack

actually money represents freedom.
you have some , you can do thngs, go places, take care of yourself, be charitable and take care of others.


it is the love of money that is thre root of evil. 

yes the dogs with that exaggerated conformation are crippled.
they have become the source of international scorn and humiliation - not allowed to
even exhibit because the conformation is deemed cruel and inhumane.

I advocate for the dogs. It is not the dogs fault . 

Breeders? The GSD death of a legend --- the system knows full well what they are doing .
They are all complicit . They rely on the potential for eager , largely foreign , members who
want a piece of the $$$ action and the "prestige" of proximity or ownership of "the best in the
world " the accepted SIEGER's value in the scheme of things.

if those foreign markets -- USA , China with its asertive emerging economy , pet owners dried up 
because they demand better the dog would change to meet the demands of the market .


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## Jenny720

Yes of course money equals freedom. It’s one of the first things teenagers learn. It’s a healthy part of the motivational equation. It’s not what the phrase equates to though. Yes love of or obsession of money. Where there is lot of money to be made greed is often the struggle in all aspects show or sport.


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## WIBackpacker

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but that video is 11 years old.... and I am so tired of seeing it. 

The general public has already bit down and won't let go of the stereotypes and extremes that exist within this breed. 

If we (GSD enthusiasts) keep rehashing this video, and the Crufts video, and the rest, we are not helping ourselves or public perception and we certainly aren't helping the dogs.

I'd rather see *current *video of strong, sound GSDs of good character being shared far and wide. The dogs are out there.... plenty of us see them or own them.

JMHO.


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## Sunsilver

If you want to see the current crop of dogs, videos have been posted on the PDB: 2017 SV Bundessiegerzuchtschau in Ulm video - Page 1

The problem is these dogs are SUPPOSED to represent the pinnacle of the breed, the best of the best. THAT'S why this needs to be talked about!


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## Jenny720

True wibackpacker. There is corruption in the animal world with breeders enjoying their extreme animals in whichever venue they are deeply vested into. Such as extreme Arabian horses that look nothing like a horse. There are breeders who goal is to breed for balance so it is important to stress that and mention that also. I have run into a few people that are non german Shepherd people who believe the breed to be crippled, neurotic, or aggressively insane by only via internet. They are sure a breed unto their own but is upsetting to see people view them in such a way. More disturbing is people within the breed just to line bash for their own personal issues which is only digging the hole deeper. Even though I like this forum if I was a person who was unfamiliar with the breed I would stay awAy from the breed from reading all about the crippled, unbalanced aggressive dogs and dogs riddled with heritary illnesses that lived to be 5. I do read all this more often then not. If i did not know any better I just may stay away from dogs all together.


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## Nurse Bishop

Here is a video of Rumor winning Westminster. You can see her at the beginning and the end (push the button to the right so you don't have to view the all the ridiculous breeds). You can see she really goes downhill topline while pulling on the leash, although it looks like her trot is hitting right. But when she is standing, not stacked, you can still see that downward slope. She might just be anticipating being stacked again at the show. Does anyone have a picture of her standing and relaxed? 




Here is a vid of dogs built the way God intended - a joy to watch.


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## GypsyGhost

Honest question... do you (general you) think breeders who don’t breed to SV standards (titles, breed survey, show rating) have any right to complain about the Sieger winners? Can you, as a buyer, complain about structure when you buy from breeders who don’t breed to standard?


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## huntergreen

Gypsy, we all have the right to not purchase or support breeders who breed exaggerated angulation.


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## GypsyGhost

huntergreen said:


> Gypsy, we all have the right to not purchase or support breeders who breed exaggerated angulation.


Of course we do. And that was more where my comment was pointed. Let your money do the talking. Support breeders who breed for correct structure, correct temperament and health, not what is fashionable right now. But don’t go to a breeder who doesn’t put in the work, doesn’t care about proper structure, doesn’t train/work/title/understand their dogs and then complain about where the breed is at.


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## Jenny720

Nurse Bishop said:


> Here is a video of Rumor winning Westminster. You can see her at the beginning and the end (push the button to the right so you don't have to view the all the ridiculous breeds). You can see she really goes downhill topline while pulling on the leash, although it looks like her trot is hitting right. But when she is standing, not stacked, you can still see that downward slope. She might just be anticipating being stacked again at the show. Does anyone have a picture of her standing and relaxed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a vid of dogs built the way God intended - a joy to watch.


Ridiculous breeds or ur opinion that they are- which is ridiculous. Super enjoyed watching Rumor and the crufts video again - great teams! I’m sure god enjoyed watching them both to!


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## Tennessee

Was it Helmut Raiser or the new guy that said some stuff along the lines of roach backs are a serious problem, the Crufts situation was disgraceful etc etc. 

Then when he goes into detail of how to fix it & what his thoughts on a proper top line are, it becomes very clear if youre paying attention that he likes the roach & isn’t going to do anything about it. Except maybe stop the most extreme examples?

It was macabrly hilarious. It put some heavweight politicians to shame on their doublespeak skills. 

The below is embarrassing, but it’s got its defenders. Plenty on this forum as well, that’ll tell you not only does it look good but it’s useful as well. 

GSDs are supposed to be shaped like hyenas, so they can drag their owners to safety like a carcass I guess.


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## carmspack

"I'd rather see current video of strong, sound GSDs of good character being shared far and wide. The dogs are out there.... plenty of us see them or own them.
"

so would I . so would I.

are they represented by the SV's highly promoted premier SHOWCASE opportuinity which presents to the public, "unwashed" and experienced the true living examples of breed perfection.

No . No and that is the source -bad right to the very source.

one of the last shows Linda Shaw and I attended -- we were there at the beginning , saw exhibitors interact with theiir dogs and the dogs natural selves from the point of arrival. 
We saw them assemble . We saw them out of the ring -- and then we saw them in the ring in their repsective 
classes.

the dogs were awarded -- temperament ????? yeah . conformation -- extreme roach - front of the line 

ONE good balanced , sound , visually stunning , CORRECT dog , a young pup either one of us would have been happy with - yes , show lines -- and that youngsters was dead last

the judge was a German SV guest 

the will and desire to change things is not there . 

this was recent - two years , three years tops --

any one can like what they like --- but there has to be a fairness to the animals affected 
by breeding choices.

owners on this forum with essentially crippled , lphyically limited, animals in pain at a young
age , not going to get "better" because the side effects will manifest as the joints are used -
and owners in distress 

it has to stop .


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## WateryTart

huntergreen said:


> Gypsy, we all have the right to not purchase or support breeders who breed exaggerated angulation.


Not Gypsy, but of curse you do. However, with that right come the responsibility to think critically, research, and choose intelligently. That means not rewarding breeders who are sloppy. That means choosing to support programs with people at the helm who actually care about titling their dog’s. That means asking your breeder not to lower the bar to suit them. It means not being a lazy buyer. Too many buyers are lazy and then complain about their dog’s they bought from lazy breeders. Too many breeders are lazy and choose to cut corners when it comes to what they put into their breeding stick.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jenny720

Tennessee said:


> Was it Helmut Raiser or the new guy that said some stuff along the lines of roach backs are a serious problem, the Crufts situation was disgraceful etc etc.
> 
> Then when he goes into detail of how to fix it & what his thoughts on a proper top line are, it becomes very clear if youre paying attention that he likes the roach & isn’t going to do anything about it. Except maybe stop the most extreme examples?
> 
> It was macabrly hilarious. It put some heavweight politicians to shame on their doublespeak skills.
> 
> The below is embarrassing, but it’s got its defenders. Plenty on this forum as well, that’ll tell you not only does it look good but it’s useful as well.
> 
> GSDs are supposed to be shaped like hyenas, so they can drag their owners to safety like a carcass I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Gsds are not to be shaped like coffee tables! You think that’s a good “then” photo.


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## Nurse Bishop

Jenny720 said:


> Ridiculous breeds or ur opinion that they are- which is ridiculous. Super enjoyed watching Rumor and the crufts video again - great teams! I’m sure god enjoyed watching them both to!


I refer to those breeds with face so flat they will suffocate while riding in an airplane, those who tend to have globe luxation (eye spontaneously pops out of socket), or have no hair coat except for a few hairs on their heads, and those bred to bizarre shapes and sizes. Surely, ridiculousness is in the eye of the beholder but you know it when you see it. German Shepherd breed 'going downhill', is the subject here. 

***removed by moderator*** The farm dogs Col. Stephanitz used to create the GSDs were originally bred from Carpathian wolves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_wolf


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## Sunsilver

No, I don't think that's a good 'then' photo. The person who chose that photo obviously prefers the 'now' version of the GSD.


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## Sunsilver

Nurse Bishop said:


> Here is a video of Rumor winning Westminster. You can see her at the beginning and the end (push the button to the right so you don't have to view the all the ridiculous breeds). You can see she really goes downhill topline while pulling on the leash, although it looks like her trot is hitting right. But when she is standing, not stacked, you can still see that downward slope. She might just be anticipating being stacked again at the show. Does anyone have a picture of her standing and relaxed?


Here is Rumor gaiting on a loose leash. I think it shows a true picture of her conformation. Not many dogs can show a beautiful 'moment of suspension' the way she does at the trot! It can only happen when the front and hind are balanced.

Edit: okay, an ALMOST loose leash...

Am wondering what more knowledgeable people than me think of her conformation. And no, GSD backs are NOT supposed to be coffee tables. But the downward slope you see in a show stack is mostly the result of the handler making the dog crouch with the hind legs. If allowed to stand normally the back would be almost level.


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## Nurse Bishop

" Last edited by GypsyGhost; Today at 12:04 PM. Reason: Religion"

I said that IMO, G _ _'s engine of creation is evolution. If you want to see the canid that pleases the Creation ( I am not allowed to say G _ _ here) look at the wolf. 

I suppose my little poem next to my avatar will be removed too.


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## WIBackpacker

What I truly do not understand is why people who have no interest in buying or breeding certain types of GSDs absolutely obsess over them online. To the _extreme_. 

Golf does not interest me. So I don't watch golf. I don't post memes about golf. I don't compare golf to the sports that I do love. I don't talk about how the sport of professional golf is going downhill. I don't care that half of my friends golf. If one of them brought their golf stuff into my house, I wouldn't care or give them side-eye. I don't join Facebook groups dedicated to the bashing of golf. I don't care who is the latest greatest famous golfer in all the land. Nor do I care how much expensive golf clubs are. Overpriced, under-priced, ugly or pretty, well made or cheaply made, I just don't care. 

Why are so many GSD people incapable of politely setting aside groups of dogs that they don't care for, and focusing instead on putting good dogs forward for consideration?

A long-gone-viral video making its 10,001st lap around the internet, posted for the _sole_ purpose of derision..... why. :shrug:


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## Nurse Bishop

Sunsilver said:


> Here is Rumor gaiting on a loose leash. I think it shows a true picture of her conformation. Not many dogs can show a beautiful 'moment of suspension' the way she does at the trot! It can only happen when the front and hind are balanced.
> 
> Edit: okay, an ALMOST loose leash...
> 
> Am wondering what more knowledgeable people than me think of her conformation. And no, GSD backs are NOT supposed to be coffee tables. But the downward slope you see in a show stack is mostly the result of the handler making the dog crouch with the hind legs. If allowed to stand normally the back would be almost level.


Do you have any pictures? I would love to see some examples of showlines just standing there relaxed.


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## carmspack

GypsyGhost said:


> Honest question... do you (general you) think breeders who don’t breed to SV standards (titles, breed survey, show rating) have any right to complain about the Sieger winners? Can you, as a buyer, complain about structure when you buy from breeders who don’t breed to standard?


YES - because what they desire is not acceptable.
Not the conformation - not even their working results (temperament)
at the Sieger show levels.

sigh -- what they have is NOT the standard . Linda Shaw clearly made
that evident in her book -- The Illustrated Standard for the GSD

somehow the breed go hi-jacked .

there are no working line breeders who adopt this structure -- it is counter productive
to function


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## Nurse Bishop

Here you go http://www.vtgsd.com/publicgsdfiles/The-Illustrated-Standard-for-the-German-Shepherd-Dog.pdf


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## Sunsilver

Nurse Bishop said:


> Do you have any pictures? I would love to see some examples of showlines just standing there relaxed.


That's difficult to find, unless you own one.

This is my own dog, who is a cross between German show lines and American show lines. I chose her because as an 8 week old puppy, there was no roached back, and no extreme angulation of her hind legs, and she had wonderful bone for a female.



Too bad about her pigment... :frown2:

I'll check my files to see if I can find other photos. I DO have some beautiful pictures of an ASL dog herding, if you want to see those.


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## carmspack

good examples of "then"

Bodo Lierberg Bodo vom Lierberg 

Marko Cellerland Marko vom Cellerland 

son Kai Silberbrand Kai vom Silberbrand

Mutz Pelztierfram Mutz von der Pelztierfarm 

these were your GSD illars of the late 60's early 70's 

They had SV Sieger VA 1 and V's -- they were the poster dogs representing all that was desireable 

so who snuck into the organization and replaced the manual ?


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## WateryTart

Sunsilver said:


> Nurse Bishop said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any pictures? I would love to see some examples of showlines just standing there relaxed.
> 
> 
> 
> That's difficult to find, unless you own one.
Click to expand...

These are not the greatest photos, and I've posted them before, but this is my ASL/WGSL cross shown first free stacking and then standing. You can see that while she obviously doesn't have the rear angulation that Rumor does, she has a noticeably sloping topline. Same dog, second photo, the slope is barely there.


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## Sunsilver

Okay, here' a candid of what looks to be an American show line standing on a frozen lake:
I have no idea of the dog's pedigree, but the photo says her name is Katie.


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## GypsyGhost

carmspack said:


> YES - because what they desire is not acceptable.
> Not the conformation - not even their working results (temperament)
> at the Sieger show levels.
> 
> sigh -- what they have is NOT the standard . Linda Shaw clearly made
> that evident in her book -- The Illustrated Standard for the GSD
> 
> somehow the breed go hi-jacked .
> 
> there are no working line breeders who adopt this structure -- it is counter productive
> to function


I don’t disagree with you. I’m just saying, as a breeder, if you (general you) want this structure to stop, get out there and prove your own breeding stock so others can see what a GSD should be. Don’t make exceptions. Don’t say, “well at least my dogs don’t have roach backs” and call it a day. And buyers, if you are bothered by this structure (which I think we can all agree is not correct), then support ethical breeders. Being a keyboard warrior only gets you (general you) so far. Obviously there are people who like this and support these breeders by purchasing puppies from them, otherwise they wouldn’t still be breeding. Anything goes if enough people are willing to pay for it. Money shouldn’t talk when it comes to breeding, but it does. There are so many people out there trying their hardest to breed ethically and actually prove their dogs, it’s on all of us to buy from them.


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## Sunsilver

carmspack said:


> ...so who snuck into the organization and replaced the manual ?


Oh, we know what their names were... :frown2: Just google Herman and Walter Martin!


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## WIBackpacker

*REMINDER* about posting photos that do not belong to you, or you were not given permission to post:



> A reminder that posts and threads that are in violation of Forum rules may be deleted without notice or explanation. Some of the reasons for deleting a post or thread may be:
> 
> "Stealing" pictures or content from another website or Facebook page.


https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...8-reminder-forum-rules-reasons-deletions.html


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## carmspack

GypsyGhost said:


> I don’t disagree with you. I’m just saying, as a breeder, if you (general you) want this structure to stop, get out there and prove your own breeding stock so others can see what a GSD should be. Don’t make exceptions. Don’t say, “well at least my dogs don’t have roach backs” and call it a day. And buyers, if you are bothered by this structure (which I think we can all agree is not correct), then support ethical breeders. Being a keyboard warrior only gets you (general you) so far. Obviously there are people who like this and support these breeders by purchasing puppies from them, otherwise they wouldn’t still be breeding. Anything goes if enough people are willing to pay for it. Money shouldn’t talk when it comes to breeding, but it does. There are so many people out there trying their hardest to breed ethically and actually prove their dogs, it’s on all of us to buy from them.


 actually done -- many of them appear in the Linda Shaw books !
Her "poster" dog Timmy -- was a son of Carmspack Katiana.

There were videos made of Kato - featured in the book . This was
an unfinished project showing Kato in motion filmed side , fron and rear
trotting at the functional endurance trot at a regulated speed.

It was not unusual for those dogs to easily do 10 to 15 k's per day.

the flying trot of Rumour - very eye catching , is not an endurance trot .

I have multiple Champs , Best in Show , and stock used for specialty Selects , (because I
made a real effort to perfect fronts and shoulders that could open up for that ground eating movement) 

the best thing that came along were some of the DDR dogs --- they still (vor the large part) had not been affected by the craziness.


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## Sunsilver

Gypsy, here's the crux of the problem:



> one of the last shows Linda Shaw and I attended -- we were there at the beginning , saw exhibitors interact with theiir dogs and the dogs natural selves from the point of arrival.
> We saw them assemble . We saw them out of the ring -- and then we saw them in the ring in their repsective
> classes.
> 
> the dogs were awarded -- temperament ????? yeah . conformation -- extreme roach - front of the line
> 
> ONE good balanced , sound , visually stunning , CORRECT dog , a young pup either one of us would have been happy with - yes , show lines -- and that youngsters was dead last
> 
> the judge was a German SV guest


So, what are you going to be able to prove when you enter a show with your bred to the standard, temperamentally sound GSD, and it gets PUT TO THE BACK OF THE CLASS??

The dogs people are looking for and going to buy are the ones that get awarded and honoured by the 'system'. You can breed to the standard all you want, but if no one wants to buy your dogs, what then?

Okay, there is proving your dog through the sport of schutzhund, but that, too has its problems. The emphasis on getting maximum points has resulted in dogs with over the top prey drive, who can be a danger to other pets or children, and sometimes have trouble settling in a home environment, because they are just so driven.

Change is much harder than you think.


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## GypsyGhost

carmspack said:


> actually done -- many of them appear in the Linda Shaw books !
> Her "poster" dog Timmy -- was a son of Carmspack Katiana.
> 
> There were videos made of Kato - featured in the book . This was
> an unfinished project showing Kato in motion filmed side , fron and rear
> trotting at the functional endurance trot at a regulated speed.
> 
> It was not unusual for those dogs to easily do 10 to 15 k's per day.
> 
> the flying trot of Rumour - very eye catching , is not an endurance trot .
> 
> I have multiple Champs , Best in Show , and stock used for specialty Selects , (because I
> made a real effort to perfect fronts and shoulders that could open up for that ground eating movement)
> 
> the best thing that came along were some of the DDR dogs --- they still (vor the large part) had not been affected by the craziness.


Carmen, I just want to make it clear that I was not calling you out specifically or saying your breeding practices were suspect. I was using “you” in the most general sense.


----------



## GypsyGhost

Sunsilver said:


> Gypsy, here's the crux of the problem:
> 
> 
> 
> So, what are you going to be able to prove when you enter a show with your bred to the standard, temperamentally sound GSD, and it gets PUT TO THE BACK OF THE CLASS??
> 
> The dogs people are looking for and going to buy are the ones that get awarded and honoured by the 'system'. You can breed to the standard all you want, but if no one wants to buy your dogs, what then?
> 
> Okay, there is proving your dog through the sport of schutzhund, but that, too has its problems. The emphasis on getting maximum points has resulted in dogs with over the top prey drive, who can be a danger to other pets or children, and sometimes have trouble settling in a home environment, because they are just so driven.
> 
> Change is much harder than you think.


We are arguing the same point, Sunsilver. I am saying support ethical breeders for what they produce overall, not podium wins with zero regard for anything else. I’m just saying it is eye opening to see what a German Shepherd should be capable of. If there were more correct GSDs being shown...


----------



## Sunsilver

WIBackpacker said:


> *REMINDER* about posting photos that do not belong to you, or you were not given permission to post:
> https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...8-reminder-forum-rules-reasons-deletions.html


IIRC, that photo was posted as part of a photography competition, therefore was public. I DO try to avoid posting private photos without permission, which is what makes it so hard to provide what Nurse Bishop asked for. :smile2:


----------



## carmspack

when something is correct it is timeless.

looking at the long distance endurance canines, the grey wolf , the coyote, the Irania red wolf - all have a 
similar structure - although on different continents . That structure enables survival.

there is no evolutionary improvement by centuries of trial and opportunity for their "wolfy" struture that resembles what the modern SV WGSL conormations is YET that is their explanatiion -- it is an improvement .

the wild canids remain true to nature - true to function 

those working with dna and epigenetics are looking at Iranian red wolf as a very interesting wolf blood
contributor - over the grey wolf .
reasons for much longer historical proximity to human encampments --- 
you look at them and you can see some ddr reverse mask type looks -- tgat was a little side bar .


----------



## WateryTart

Sunsilver said:


> IIRC, that photo was posted as part of a photography competition, therefore was public. I DO try to avoid posting private photos without permission, which is what makes it so hard to provide what Nurse Bishop asked for. :smile2:


But if you have a dog of the type being discussed, why not just stick to photos of your own dog and avoid the entire issue? I’ve seen you post quite a few photos that aren’t yours. Whether it’s against the rules or not is the mods’ call, but I’m going to guess not all of those photos are public domain.




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----------



## Ken Clean-Air System

There is a video online, easy to find with a Google search for "Lockenhaus’ Rumor Has It", that shows Rumor hanging out with her family at home. She's a pretty dog, and her movement, to me at least, looks much more natural than the WGSL dogs in the first video and her temperament seems sound. Still more exaggerated in conformation than I like personally, but then again I also prefer sables, blacks, bi-colors, and blanket backs too, lol.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

From Carmspack " the flying trot of Rumour - very eye catching , is not an endurance trot .".

It is the same with Arabian horses. They "float" in the show ring. 



But the Arabian endurance trot can go 100 miles in a day. Tevis Cup Winners :: The Tevis Cup


----------



## mspiker03

Nurse Bishop said:


> Do you have any pictures? I would love to see some examples of showlines just standing there relaxed.


I have tons - but would never subject my dogs to a thread talking about how crappy showlines are structured. I just don't need that in my life. And both my dogs are more moderately structured than the extremes.


----------



## carmspack

GypsyGhost said:


> Carmen, I just want to make it clear that I was not calling you out specifically or saying your breeding practices were suspect. I was using “you” in the most general sense.


I know . And I don't care . The dogs work , long , difficult , gruelling working lives without interruption or issue . So I am stead fast .
It gets exasperating to hear well why don't you throw your stock into that arena for evaluation. 
Some ambitious newcomers , boy do we need them, aspire to just that .

they will never make a point - - the needle will never move -- but they will spend their time and they will spend their money .

as one breeder and holder of many times "breeder of the year" said to me -- you too will have to compromise -- this is a game , and if you want to win , have to play by their rules .

He knew better . He played the game . He was BIG.

I hope to have some of those GSD qualities rub off on me -- one of them being 
incorruptible. 

Sunsilver had a very good post . She said when you go in to ther ring with a "pure"
top lines SV WGSL breeding that has somehow broken thorugh and was a beautiful
specimen get dead last - then what hope is there .

That was a progeny of one of the well known top 3 show line breeders in Ontario.

Apparently , according to my french ring trainer frienc , there is a breeder of WGSL's
in Ontario who has been producing some interesting trainable , sound , dogs for 
work -- maybe not the hard core fire in the belly needs to be 110% reliable and dependable working kind -- but so far free of issues or flakiness .
He has had several from the same breeder to train on private contract for pet or
light protection. He sounds impressed by them

I think it is the same kennel.

I support this . 


Sunsilver had


----------



## Sunsilver

WateryTart said:


> But if you have a dog of the type being discussed, why not just stick to photos of your own dog and avoid the entire issue? I’ve seen you post quite a few photos that aren’t yours. Whether it’s against the rules or not is the mods’ call, but I’m going to guess not all of those photos are public domain.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Makes it kind of hard to discuss conformation issues if you can only post photos of your own dogs, doesn't it? Anything I've posted recently, with the exception of the dog on the ice has been from the Pedigree Database.

The photo of Rumor gaiting was publicly posted at the time she won Westminister. And Ken, I like her too, and some of the dogs behind her. My show line female has some of the same dogs (Dallas), and she has a really nice temperament and at 11 years old is still sound and full of energy.


----------



## GypsyGhost

mspiker03 said:


> I have tons - but would never subject my dogs to a thread talking about how crappy showlines are structured. I just don't need that in my life. And both my dogs are more moderately structured than the extremes.


I find it to be so very sad when people like you, who have nice examples of a line type, cannot share because everyone decides to generalize. At least you know what you have. That’s what’s most important in the end, I suppose.


----------



## WateryTart

Sunsilver said:


> Makes it kind of hard to discuss conformation issues if you can only post photos of your own dogs, doesn't it? Anything I've posted recently, with the exception of the dog on the ice has been from the Pedigree Database.
> 
> 
> 
> The photo of Rumor gaiting was publicly posted at the time she won Westminister.


I’ll stick to photos I know I have the right to post, with a clear conscience. But you do you. :smile:




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## Nurse Bishop

Please have a look at page 50 of The Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog. concerning the trot. http://www.vtgsd.com/publicgsdfiles/...epherd-Dog.pdf

Also page 44 you will see Zamp von Thermados example of a beautiful head.


----------



## tim_s_adams

Aren't all photos, once put out there in the public domain, fair to repost?


----------



## sebrench

I realized that I don't have many profile pics of my dogs. But here are some of Asher (WGSL), standing naturally. The pics aren't the greatest due to the lighting and the tall grass, but I'd like to think his conformation is not extreme. My stacking attempts have not been very successful (I don't have much dedication for that) so I'm not sure how exaggerated his topline would appear if he was stacked by a professional.


----------



## Tennessee

Jenny720 said:


> Tennessee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was it Helmut Raiser or the new guy that said some stuff along the lines of roach backs are a serious problem, the Crufts situation was disgraceful etc etc.
> 
> Then when he goes into detail of how to fix it & what his thoughts on a proper top line are, it becomes very clear if youre paying attention that he likes the roach & isn’t going to do anything about it. Except maybe stop the most extreme examples?
> 
> It was macabrly hilarious. It put some heavweight politicians to shame on their doublespeak skills.
> 
> The below is embarrassing, but it’s got its defenders. Plenty on this forum as well, that’ll tell you not only does it look good but it’s useful as well.
> 
> GSDs are supposed to be shaped like hyenas, so they can drag their owners to safety like a carcass I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Gsds are not to be shaped like coffee tables! You think that’s a good “then” photo.
> 
> 
> 
> The dog in the photo has his back legs straightened...
> 
> Stephanitz was a big fan of the below dog if you'd like a different one.
Click to expand...


----------



## WIBackpacker

Sunsilver said:


> *Makes it kind of hard to discuss conformation issues if you can only post photos of your own dogs, doesn't it?* Anything I've posted recently, with the exception of the dog on the ice has been from the Pedigree Database.
> 
> The photo of Rumor gaiting was publicly posted at the time she won Westminister. And Ken, I like her too, and some of the dogs behind her. My show line female has some of the same dogs (Dallas), and she has a really nice temperament and at 11 years old is still sound and full of energy.





tim_s_adams said:


> *Aren't all photos, once put out there in the public domain, fair to repost?*


Linking to pages on PDB or WorkingDog provides lots and lots of photos and discussion fodder. Linking to a someone's website or blog is a legal way to point someone toward an image for discussion.

Public videos can be shared or embedded. Should the owner of the video decide to remove it at the source, the link simply won't work. 

The "Stealing" line gets blurred and then crossed when one finds a photo owned by someone else, saves it to one's own computer/device, and uploads/embeds it without permission from the original owner. 

All original work (including photography) is covered under copyright, in the eyes of the law. Copyright gives someone the _exclusive _right to publicly display the work. With some exceptions, images published before 1923 falls into the Public Domain (post away). Work published between 1925-1978 is protected for 95 years from the date of publication. Work published after 1978 is copyrighted for the life of the author + 70 years. 

Authors/artists can "Dedicate" work to the public domain, if they wish.

But no, Tim - the owner does not relinquish copyright simply because s/he has displayed their own work publicly. S/he still retains exclusive rights to it.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Tennessee said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The dog in the photo has his back legs straightened...
> 
> Stephanitz was a big fan of the below dog if you'd like a different one.
> 
> 
> 
> Both those dogs are pictured with their hind feet set below the level of the front. The first dog is obviously physically fit.
> 
> I'd like to see members dogs pictured from the side at the dogs eye level and standing on level ground. I don't even have a picture of Inga like that, they are all 'action photos'. But her breeder did describe them as straight backs. I will have to get my camera out and take a picture.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tennessee

WIBackpacker said:


> What I truly do not understand is why people who have no interest in buying or breeding certain types of GSDs absolutely obsess over them online. To the _extreme_.
> 
> Golf does not interest me. So I don't watch golf. I don't post memes about golf. I don't compare golf to the sports that I do love. I don't talk about how the sport of professional golf is going downhill. I don't care that half of my friends golf. If one of them brought their golf stuff into my house, I wouldn't care or give them side-eye. I don't join Facebook groups dedicated to the bashing of golf. I don't care who is the latest greatest famous golfer in all the land. Nor do I care how much expensive golf clubs are. Overpriced, under-priced, ugly or pretty, well made or cheaply made, I just don't care.
> 
> Why are so many GSD people incapable of politely setting aside groups of dogs that they don't care for, and focusing instead on putting good dogs forward for consideration?
> 
> A long-gone-viral video making its 10,001st lap around the internet, posted for the _sole_ purpose of derision..... why. :shrug:


Two groups who both care deeply about the same thing but want it to move in opposing directions arguing with each other, is neither the same thing as you not caring enough to argue over something that you have no interest in whatsoever nor does it make sense when you compare inanimate objects and/or harmless activities with living creatures people are playing God with.

But that's neither here nor there, to answer your actual question if I've learned anything in all my experiences with animal people it's this.

Dog/cat people are crazy
Horse people are rich enough to be called eccentric

(my wife say's I'm not crazy but she's a dog person too so I'm not sure that counts)
:grin2:


----------



## Nigel

GypsyGhost said:


> I find it to be so very sad when people like you, who have nice examples of a line type, cannot share because everyone decides to generalize. At least you know what you have. That’s what’s most important in the end, I suppose.


Meh, here is my west German showline. He’s 4-5 months here. Not sure he’s too concerned about what others think of his conformation nor the food bits stuck in his teeth.


----------



## WateryTart

Tennessee said:


> Two groups who both care deeply about the same thing but want it to move in opposing directions arguing with each other, is neither the same thing as you not caring enough to argue over something that you have no interest in whatsoever nor does it make sense when you compare inanimate objects and/or harmless activities with living creatures people are playing God with.
> 
> 
> 
> But that's neither here nor there, to answer your actual question if I've learned anything in all my experiences with animal people it's this.
> 
> 
> 
> Dog/cat people are crazy
> 
> Horse people are rich enough to be called eccentric
> 
> 
> 
> (my wife say's I'm not crazy but she's a dog person too so I'm not sure that counts)
> 
> :grin2:


I think her real point was more along the lines that, even though the stakes may feel high, tearing each other down is ride and unproductive, and focusing on one’s own house ultimately accomplishes a lot mire.

Don’t like show lines? Don’t have one. Put your energy into showing what your working lines can do by proving them and don’t rip show likes for being hock walking frog dogs. Don’t like working lines? Don’t have one. Put conformation and performance titles on your confirmation line dog’s and hush up about the working lines instead of making rude comments about them being feral drive monkeys. Show, don’t tell. Mouthing off is just that, and it’s worthless.




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----------



## Tennessee

WateryTart said:


> I think her real point was more along the lines that, even though the stakes may feel high, tearing each other down is ride and unproductive, and focusing on one’s own house ultimately accomplishes a lot mire.
> 
> Don’t like show lines? Don’t have one. Put your energy into showing what your working lines can do by proving them and don’t rip show likes for being hock walking frog dogs. Don’t like working lines? Don’t have one. Put conformation and performance titles on your confirmation line dog’s and hush up about the working lines instead of making rude comments about them being feral drive monkeys. Show, don’t tell. Mouthing off is just that, and it’s worthless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you don't like something, shut up and mind your own business. That's the way things are and you can't change it.

Did I get that right?


----------



## WateryTart

Tennessee said:


> If you don't like something, shut up and mind your own business. That's the way things are and you can't change it.
> 
> 
> 
> Did I get that right?


I would say instead, Handle yourself with politeness and class, control that which you can control, recognize what you can’t, and work hard and do your best at what you are doing.

But if you’d like to shut up and mind your own business, no one is stopping you.



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## Nurse Bishop

Returning to the subject at hand, please look at the pictures on pages 7 and 8 here.
http://www.vtgsd.com/publicgsdfiles/The-Illustrated-Standard-for-the-German-Shepherd-Dog.pdf

One page has the structure of a normal GSD standing and the other is one stacked. A slight downhill is present in the topline of the standing dog on page 7.


----------



## carmspack

Nurse Bishop said:


> Please have a look at page 50 of The Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog. concerning the trot. http://www.vtgsd.com/publicgsdfiles/...epherd-Dog.pdf
> 
> Also page 44 you will see Zamp von Thermados example of a beautiful head.


Page 50 shows a GSD show dog being trotted around the ring .
the wording is an unnatural head carriage -- the head is upright 

on page 49 she shows a working line with the proper head carriage at the trot.

one thing people may not know. These are not imagined animals , they are real
living actual dogs .


----------



## Tennessee

Nevermind, I'm just going to get myself in trouble.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

New to GSD people are buying roach backed dogs because they don't know any better. Its structural. This is worth talking about, its not personal.

Haha I saw what you said before you edited it


----------



## carmspack

Nurse Bishop said:


> Returning to the subject at hand, please look at the pictures on pages 7 and 8 here.
> http://www.vtgsd.com/publicgsdfiles/The-Illustrated-Standard-for-the-German-Shepherd-Dog.pdf
> 
> One page has the structure of a normal GSD standing and the other is one stacked. A slight downhill is present in the topline of the standing dog on page 7.


good dogs.

there is a harmonious line from wither to croup . That is the top line . The back is one
part of that .

page 19?


----------



## carmspack

Nurse Bishop said:


> New to GSD people are buying roach backed dogs because they don't know any better. Its structural. This is worth talking about, its not personal.
> 
> Haha I saw what you said before you edited it


absolutely .
the SV is extremely influential

member countries of the FCI , not part of the SV don't
seem to have these problems 

they don't need to "belong" or toe the line 

yes newbies don't know the and they will not question the 
dogs that are promoted 

can't be complacent -- and that goes for working lines as well


----------



## cloudpump

Nurse Bishop said:


> New to GSD people are buying roach backed dogs because they don't know any better. Its structural. This is worth talking about, its not personal.
> 
> Haha I saw what you said before you edited it


Honestly, I see most new people buying from bybs, with untitled bitches, and saying they dont want roach backed dogs with bad hips.


----------



## Tennessee

My dogs topline taken today with my Mal for comparison.


----------



## Aly

cloudpump said:


> Honestly, I see most new people buying from bybs, with untitled bitches, and saying they dont want roach backed dogs with bad hips.


Yes, but I suspect that that could be due to several things: Cost (lots of folks balk at paying $2k+ for a well-bred dog), knowledge (you have to know _what to look for and how/where to find it_, not just the obvious things to avoid), availability (the kinds of good breeders folks are talking about aren't exactly thick on the ground), misunderstanding purpose/function (the buyer's not the breed; IOW, if I'm not doing IPO/LE, or planning to invade a small country, why do I need All That Dog?) and ignorance of dog fancy politics (the buyer does the 'right' thing, goes to dog shows, sees what's winning, so that's what they seek/buy; how are they to know that what's winning isn't necessarily what's correct?).

Yes, some smart people do their research read books and join forums like this one. But not everyone does or feels the need to do so. They just want a dog like the ones they remember growing up or (worse yet) a BA like the SEALS have.

Aly


----------



## huntergreen

I always thought, German showline gsd were supposed to have a slight roach back. Not like the exaggerated roach back in the original post.


----------



## Spetzio

While not the best stack because he’s leaning back into himself a bit, (note front legs not fully correct, not carrying himself properly), I still see nothing extreme with my WGSL boy’s topline. ? Even with all that crazy LC hair that normally distorts it. His dam is 50/50 WGSL x WGWL outcross split and his sire is full WGSL, but he very clearly took after his sire in terms of looks and conformation.


----------



## Beau's Mom

He’s beautiful!


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Aly said:


> Yes, but I suspect that that could be due to several things: Cost (lots of folks balk at paying $2k+ for a well-bred dog), knowledge (you have to know _what to look for and how/where to find it_, not just the obvious things to avoid), availability (the kinds of good breeders folks are talking about aren't exactly thick on the ground), misunderstanding purpose/function (the buyer's not the breed; IOW, if I'm not doing IPO/LE, or planning to invade a small country, why do I need All That Dog?) and ignorance of dog fancy politics (the buyer does the 'right' thing, goes to dog shows, sees what's winning, so that's what they seek/buy; how are they to know that what's winning isn't necessarily what's correct?).
> 
> Yes, some smart people do their research read books and join forums like this one. But not everyone does or feels the need to do so. They just want a dog like the ones they remember growing up or (worse yet) a BA like the SEALS have.
> 
> Aly


Thank you,these are good explainations. I knew nothing about GSDs when I bought Inga, but if the breeding stock was roach backed I would have noticed. Probably because I have been a horsewoman all my life and would have noticed something was not right in the conformation. She is WGSL with a whole lot of ScH in the woodpile.


----------



## lhczth

Working lines. Probably my most correct dog. This is a natural stack (I threw the ball and told her to stay). She was a very balanced mover with a correct temperament. 

The second photo is her great granddaughter. She isn't as correct, but still balanced and extremely athletic. Very correct in temperament. High drive with tremendous work ethics, but super easy to live with and she is wonderful with kids. Also a natural stack.


----------



## CometDog

The one on the left is exactly what I remember of the dogs we had when I was growing up 70/early 80s


----------



## Beau's Mom

I have learned a lot from this thread. I think some showline dogs are beautiful. The ones in that video looked crippled, though, and their gait was not beautiful to me.

Just for fun, and please forgive the photo quality and the laundry in the boring setting lol. Here is my working line, Beau. I don’t know how correct he is but I love his looks. He is in a Stand Stay staring at his ball off camera in both pics.


----------



## Beau's Mom

Your dogs are beautiful, and they sound like wonderful companions.


----------



## huntergreen

Wonder if seller can offer an opinion. I have seen pictures of her dogs and they look beautiful.


----------



## carmspack

the roach back is the negative , function impairing , "requirement" of the SV showline.

show me ONE roach back white GSD

show me ONE roach back solid black or bi colour 

just curious


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

This is something I don't think whites get enough credit for. Both my dog's parents had conformation CH, in two separate orgs I think, both very pleasant to look at to me. Nothing freaky. 

I find my dog pleasant to look at and nothing freaky or over done and he is plenty athletic enough for anything I need him for.

I don't know how to analyze conformation or stack a dog.


----------



## Sunsilver

The white GSD folk have done a very good job of keeping their dogs functionally correct and without exaggeration. 
It bugs me when people complain about them breeding 'just for colour'. Yes, there are breeders who do that, but then there are the ones who are doing everything possible to keep this branch of the breed healthy and sound!

Would like to see MORE breeders doing this, but it's not happening because they don't want to admit their dogs have faults!!

White Shepherd Genetics Project - History


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I *think* most, if not all, of the breeders who are working hard at reputable white programs also are working hard at being recognized as a separate breed


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Keefer, with Dena in the background - half siblings, my WGSLs










Keefer










Keef on the right, Dena on the left










I've always loved this shot of the two of them (Dena in the lead)










Dena died of lymphoma nearly 10 years ago, but Keefer is still around and will be 13 tomorrow.


----------



## huntergreen

Cowboygirl,. Beautiful gsd. I agree, very pleasant to look at.


----------



## huntergreen

Great pics Cassidy.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Here is WGSL Inga born 21016 just standing there at eye level. Her breeder described the stock as straight backed. She is biddable and has strong nerve.


----------



## Jenny720

Max is my American showline and Luna is my West german showline. I can bragg about them all day! Max -
















Luna

















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----------



## Nigel

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Keefer, with Dena in the background - half siblings, my WGSLs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keefer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keef on the right, Dena on the left
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've always loved this shot of the two of them (Dena in the lead)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dena died of lymphoma nearly 10 years ago, but Keefer is still around and will be 13 tomorrow.


Happy Birthday Keefer!


----------



## Jenny720

Happy Birthday handsome!!! 13 years old god bless!!!


----------



## Nigel

lhczth said:


> Working lines. Probably my most correct dog. This is a natural stack (I threw the ball and told her to stay). She was a very balanced mover with a correct temperament.
> 
> The second photo is her great granddaughter. She isn't as correct, but still balanced and extremely athletic. Very correct in temperament. High drive with tremendous work ethics, but super easy to live with and she is wonderful with kids. Also a natural stack.


Both are beautiful dogs! Not sure what "isn't as correct" in the granddaughter, but she looks and sounds perfect imop.


----------



## lhczth

Nigel said:


> Both are beautiful dogs! Not sure what "isn't as correct" in the granddaughter, but she looks and sounds perfect imop.



She is limited in her reach in front and drive off of the rear and should cover more ground when moving. She is very balanced, though.


Her withers is also flat.


----------



## Nigel

lhczth said:


> She is limited in her reach in front and drive off of the rear and should* cover more ground when moving*. She is very balanced, though.
> 
> 
> Her withers is also flat.


By what type of movement do you gauge this? Are these differences something an average person can detect or trained eye usually? I ask because I struggle a bit watching for differences in motion.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I was googling my dog's parents to see what orgs they had conformation CHs in. I didn't post pics of my dogs' parents due to recent discussion of who owns pics or has the right to post them and I'm not clear on whether it's cool of me to post my dog's parents' pics, which is a bummer because they are professionally stacked and professional pics so way better than my crappy pic of my dog.

But at any rate in googling my dog's sire's name I accidentally found him in the top 5 listing of white shepherds in Flyball and I think HIS sire right below him at #6 so I figure that is worth a mention as far as athleticism. 5 of the top 20 are from his breeder.

Okay the sire was AWSA/WSCC Ch, but in my opinion more importantly was OTCH in AKC and CKC, not that that has anything to do with conformation. Re: athleticism the sire is Flyball Master Champion which I don't honestly know what that entails, and he also had 4 agility titles. 

Dam is listed as AWSA CH and U-CH....which I am not sure what that one is, is that a UKC Ch?

AWSA lists a roach topline as a fault: 

Faults: Dip behind the withers; sag or roach in topline; shelly chest; ribs too wide or round so as to interfere with action of elbows and forelegs; flat ribs; extreme greyhound-like tuckup; croup too steep or too flat.

For movement it says: Serious faults: Correct movement is essential to this breed so structural faults shall be penalized in proportion to how they diminish the dogs ability to move with efficiency and agility.


I'm gonna go look up with the GSD standards say about these things now


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I am a fan of what UKC says:

Breeders and judges have the responsibility to avoid any conditions or exaggerations that are detrimental to the health, welfare, essence and soundness of this breed, and must take the responsibility to see that these are not perpetuated.

Any departure from the following should be considered a fault, and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog and on the dogs ability to perform its traditional work.

The tendencies toward exaggeration and steep angles are unacceptable. German Shepherd Dogs with unstable temperaments, sharply angulated croups, overly long front and rear pasterns, and hocks that are weak and wobbly are poor representations of this working breed. UKC is unwilling to condone the validity of using exaggerated specimens of this breed in a breeding program and, to preserve its health and vibrancy, cautions judges about awarding wins to these representatives.

----https://www.ukcdogs.com/german-shepherd-dog


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

More from UKC that I like

Body
A properly proportioned German Shepherd Dog is longer (measured from prosternum to point of buttocks) than tall (measured from the withers to the ground) in a ratio of 10 to 9. The length is derived from proper construction of forequarters and hindquarters and not from length of back.

The line of the back slopes downward from the withers into a straight, strongly developed, and relatively short back. Ribs are long and extend well back, resulting in a short, broad loin. The croup is long and slightly sloping.

Viewed from the front, the chest is deep and well filled. From the side, the forechest extends in front of the forelegs and the brisket down to the elbows. Tuck-up is moderate.
Faults: Barrel ribs; ribs too flat; long loin.

Serious Faults: Any measure of a roached back. Shelly appearance.

Hindquarters
Viewed from the side, the hindquarters are broad and muscular. The angulation of the hindquarters is in balance with the angulation of the forequarters. The rear pastern is short and strong, and should remain upright and functional. Powerful hindquarters are necessary to enable the effortless movement that is an essential feature of this breed. Rear pasterns should remain upright and functional.

Serious Faults: Over-angulated rear, with anything exaggerated beyond a mild slope. Rear pasterns so long and weak that proper movement is compromised.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

This is from USCA website:

Body – The upper line runs from the base of the neck via the high, long withers and via the straight back towards the slightly sloping croup, without visible interruption. The back is moderately long, firm, strong and well-muscled. The loin is broad, short, strongly developed and well-muscled. The croup should be long and slightly sloping (approx 23° to the horizontal) and the upper line should merge into the base of the tail without interruption.


While they do mention white being a disqualifying fault...no mention of other conformation extremes that I can see? Although it does say "via the straight back"....



Deviations from the above-described breed characteristics which impair the working capability.

Faulty ears: ears set too low laterally, tipped ears, inward constricted ears, ears not firm

Considerable pigment deficiencies.

Severely impaired overall stability.

_______________________________________end excerpt from USCA website

so this seems senseless to me. We will spell out that soft ears and pigment deficiency are a real problem. Spell out that white is a no go, but we won't spell out anything about severe roach back?

Pigment and soft ears don't impair working ability. Which one is more important? Not that I am advocating GSDs having soft ears. But if we're going to spell out important stuff seems like roach back is important enough to make the list. It is for some of the other standards clearly


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Re: athleticism the sire is Flyball Master Champion which I don't honestly know what that entails, and he also had 4 agility titles.


FMCh is 15,000 points in NAFA, the North American Flyball Association. Highest award is the Hobbes, for 100,000 points, named for the first flyball dog to have achieved that many points. Halo got as high as an Onyx award, 20,000 points. She had 24,695 when I had to retire her due to DM. 

I had no idea that NAFA listed white shepherds separately, there are 353 GSDs, and 24 whites that have been registered in NAFA.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Re: athleticism the sire is Flyball Master Champion which I don't honestly know what that entails, and he also had 4 agility titles.
> 
> 
> 
> FMCh is 15,000 points in NAFA, the North American Flyball Association. Highest award is the Hobbes, for 100,000 points, named for the first flyball dog to have achieved that many points. Halo got as high as an Onyx award, 20,000 points. She had 24,695 when I had to retire her due to DM.
> 
> I had no idea that NAFA listed white shepherds separately, there are 353 GSDs, and 24 whites that have been registered in NAFA.
Click to expand...

I don't know anything about any of it but I did manage to stumble on the list of the white shepherds when I googled my dog's sire.

I thought I was looking at top 20 but maybe the only 20? 

http://nafadb.flyball.org/database/report_top_hundred_breed.php?breed=White German Shepherd Dog


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I thought I was looking at top 20 but maybe the only 20?
> 
> North American Flyball Association | NAFA Top 100 White German Shepherd Dogs


That's the top 100, there just aren't 100 white shepherds registered. On this page (all the W breeds, scroll down to see white shepherds), it shows *Total Registered Dogs: 24* in the header on the right side. 

North American Flyball Association | NAFA Top 5 of Each Breed


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## Nurse Bishop

Thats nice, but UKC- isn't this the British Isles Kennel Club? I am more concerned about the GSDs bred from GSDs in America. And White Shepherds are not allowed to be registered AKC. I'm glad they have not been messed up by extreme conformation breeders, but the OP's (me) original concern is West German Show Lines.


----------



## GypsyGhost

Nurse Bishop said:


> Thats nice, but UKC- isn't this the British Isles Kennel Club? I am more concerned about the GSDs bred from GSDs in America. And White Shepherds are not allowed to be registered AKC. I'm glad they have not been messed up by extreme conformation breeders, but the OP's (me) original concern is West German Show Lines.


White German Shepherds can absolutely be registered by the AKC, as long as both of their parents had full registration. UKC is the United Kennel Club- it’s just a different registry in the US. As far as I have seen, most GSDs that are UKC registered are also AKC registered. UKC just offers different sport and conformation showing options for people looking to branch out of AKC. WL GSDs can finish and obtain a UKC conformation championship, where they may never score points in an AKC conformation ring, for example.


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## Nurse Bishop

Well I googled it and it said White Shepherds not registerable in AKC but it might have been an old link and I thought UKC was United Kingdom Kennelclub. Shows you what I know about show dogs. 

Still, my OP original post was about the state of West German Show Lines in America. I said please tell me this is being bred out.


----------



## GypsyGhost

Nurse Bishop said:


> Well I googled it and it said White Shepherds not registerable in AKC but it might have been an old link and I thought UKC was United Kingdom Kennelclub. Shows you what I know about show dogs.
> 
> Still, my OP original post was about the state of West German Show Lines in America. I said please tell me this is being bred out.


White GSDs will be disqualified in an AKC conformation ring, but they can still be regustered with the AKC (again, as long as both parents were registered and had breeding rights). 

I prefer working line dogs, personally, and do not consider myself well versed in the breeding practices of WGSL dogs. But I have seen numerous WGSL dogs who do not have a roached back. The ones I’ve seen from breeders that are truly interested in working their dogs seem to have decent conformation.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Right, but as OP I would please like to see pictures of the present generation of WGSL bred in the USA, standing not stacked, broadside at dogs eye level. Thanks


----------



## GypsyGhost

Nurse Bishop said:


> Right, but as OP I would please like to see pictures of the present generation of WGSL bred in the USA, standing not stacked, broadside at dogs eye level. Thanks


Have you tried a google search?


----------



## Nurse Bishop

It is difficult to google pictures of WGSL GSds not stacked. I would like to see members dogs.


----------



## lhczth

A very free moving ground covering trot. I always found Dingo to be a bit too loose, but he is the best I can find. He had a very long upper arm which gave him the ability to open up at the shoulder and move freely and his rear was balanced with his front. His withers could have been a bit higher and he was starting to show the curved spine of the modern showlines, but still not an extreme dog.


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## Nigel

This video demonstrates it well. So your girl lacks some reach, does reach include the fore and aft position of the front legs?


----------



## Jenny720

Thanks for posting the video of Dingo always enjoy watching the way he moves.

I would imagine so - forward reach and backward push. I’m always learning - and this article goes into detail about the forearm and length as mentioned. 
https://www.louisdonald.com/theforequarterofthegermanshepherddog.html


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## Benjaminb

McGloomy said:


> Oh wow....... They sure look beautiful and certain 'people' would most likely breed them... ?


And get 7000$ from each pup................


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## lhczth

Nigel said:


> This video demonstrates it well. So your girl lacks some reach, does reach include the fore and aft position of the front legs?


Reach would include both front and rear, but power and the drive forward comes from the rear. 

I wish I had videos of Bodo Lierberg moving (pictured below). Level topline, tremendous reach and a balanced ground covering gait. He does kick up a bit in the rear and I am not totally sure of the reason. Like Dingo he is able to open up his shoulder to reach forward and not just bend at the elbow like so many of the dogs I see now (including the VA dogs). 

The GSD should cover ground in an efficient manner (long stride) without losing agility and balance.


----------



## Nigel

lhczth said:


> Reach would include both front and rear, but power and the drive forward comes from the rear.
> 
> I wish I had videos of Bodo Lierberg moving (pictured below). Level topline, tremendous reach and a balanced ground covering gait. He does kick up a bit in the rear and I am not totally sure of the reason. *Like Dingo he is able to open up his shoulder* to reach forward and not just bend at the elbow like so many of the dogs I see now (including the VA dogs).
> 
> The GSD should cover ground in an efficient manner (long stride) without losing agility and balance.


I was focused solely on the leg th of reach and not how they're actually achieving this through the shoulder and elbow. I will watch the first video again to look for this. Thanks!


----------



## Sunsilver

A modern showline dog for comparison (re. picture of Bodo) from Louis Donald's article on the evolution of the back of the GSD:https://www.louisdonald.com/the-back-of-the-german-shepherd-dog.html

You can see that the elbow remains bent, and the dog is incapable of extending it the way Bodo does.

Many showline dogs also kick up at the back (rear paw will be curved slightly upwards) at the end of the stride, but this particular dog doesn't. If you look at the picture on Louis's website, the dog shown to the left of this one does show kick-up.


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## wolfy dog

Besides the focus on angulation and back line, I also find that the head shape of the WGSLs are starting to look more Akita-like. I don't think there will ever be an agreement about what a GSD should look like. Politics play a huge role as well.


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## dogfaeries

My girls are ASL, but here are examples of reach, of moving from the shoulder and not the elbow. First is Scarlet, second is Carly. 



















Edited to add, Carly was coming to a stop, so she’s not as extended.


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## Nurse Bishop

Here is a pretty good illustrated standard. I'm going by this. The pictures and drawings are beautiful and she explaines the physiology and structure of motion.

http://www.vtgsd.com/publicgsdfiles/The-Illustrated-Standard-for-the-German-Shepherd-Dog.pdf

This is just the free download the first 50 pages. The rest of the book is available on Amazon.


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## Whiteshepherds

Sunsilver said:


> You can see that the elbow remains bent, and the dog is incapable of extending it the way Bodo does.


I pulled up a few photos of Pi when to compare with the video and illustrations. In the first photo her elbow is bent. (she's very young in this photo, somewhere between 16 and 20 wks, not sure if that makes a difference) In the second photo leg looks to be extended. So depending on which photo someone looked at, it seems like they'd reach a different conclusion? 

Then, while watching the video of Dingo I happened to stop it at a moment when the elbow was bent and it got me thinking..... *When looking at a still photo is there something about the placement of the dogs other legs that tells you the front leg is extended as far as it's going to?*


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## Sunsilver

Whiteshepherds, still photos can be deceiving as the amount of extension depends on how fast the dog is moving. It will be less at slower speeds. But even in the first photo, her extension is better than the German dog. You can see how the German SL is lifting the front leg too, and your dog isn't.

So many of these photos show the dog with the front paw still in the air, while the hind leg is already on the ground, because the front and hind are not balanced and can't move in sync! 

The trot was always supposed to be a 2-beat gait! :frown2:

Edited to answer your question: In a correct trot, the front and hind legs on opposite sides move in unison. So, when the hind leg is at maximum stretch towards the rear, (which is pretty easy to see) the front leg on the same side should also be at maximum extension towards the front.


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## Nurse Bishop

Ihctzh video of Dingo and picture of Bodo Lierberg are just breath taking. It is poetry in motion.


----------



## Sabis mom

Sunsilver said:


> Whiteshepherds, still photos can be deceiving as the amount of extension depends on how fast the dog is moving. It will be less at slower speeds. But even in the first photo, her extension is better than the German dog. You can see how the German SL is lifting the front leg too, and your dog isn't.
> 
> So many of these photos show the dog with the front paw still in the air, while the hind leg is already on the ground, because the front and hind are not balanced and can't move in sync!
> 
> The trot was always supposed to be a 2-beat gait! :frown2:
> 
> Edited to answer your question: *In a correct trot, the front and hind legs on opposite sides move in unison. So, when the hind leg is at maximum stretch towards the rear, (which is pretty easy to see) the front leg on the same side should also be at maximum extension towards the front*.


So Shadow is presumably what we refer to as ASL petstock and not a good example really but I happened to have this photo of her which I think, because I studied equine movement not canine, shows a correct trot.


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## Aly

Fascinating thread! Reading through people's descriptions of correct movement (at the trot), I was reminded of Hilary Clayton's Diagonal Advanced Placement (DAP) construct in horses. I wonder if the same idea is applicable to dogs, GSDs specifically. Below is a not too technical article describing DAP. 

Diagonal Advanced Placement DAP

Basically, the trot (in horses) was always thought to be a 2 beat gait, with the diagonal pairs moving in concert (i.e., left fore and right hind rise/strike the ground at the same time). Not too different from what we assume to be typical of dogs’ movement. With video and photographic advancements, Clayton and researchers were able to identify more subtle patterns of movement among horses. First, diagonal pairs don't always move at the same time. Second, two patterns were identified: positive DAP (e.g., right hind touches down _before _the left fore) and negative DAP (e.g., right hind touches down _after _the left fore). Positive DAP is desirable because the horse is correctly powering off its’ hind end (where the engine is) as opposed to ‘dragging’ itself forward with the front. Negative DAP, not so much.

There also are a number of correlates associated (at least theoretically) with positive DAP — an elastic, active back which channels the engine’s energy to the forelimbs and a generally more uphill carriage, for example. (Must admit that I’ve not kept with this literature, so they may have confirmed/disconfirmed the hypothesized correlates by now).

When I looked at the video that @lhczth posted, I was struck by how Dingo displayed positive DAP (i.e., left hind lands before the right fore). 

@dogfaeries, the degree to which your dogs appear to move through the shoulder (rather than just flinging the forelegs out) might be an illustration of this idea. It could be the angle at which the photo was taken but Scarlett (dog in the first photo) looks more upright too. 

So now I’m really curious about the applicability of the DAP construct to understanding/assessing movement in dogs.

Aly


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## dogfaeries

Scarlet was about 14 months in that photo. She is still really “lifty” as we call it. She’ll eventually stop lifting up those front legs, and glide along more smoothly. You can fix lift, but you can’t fix lack of reach and drive. Both of those girls are balanced, with good extension in front and drive in the rear.


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## dogfaeries

My breeder has a few dirt runs that are about 100’ feet long. There are landscaping timbers half buried in the dirt, spaced out like cavalettis for horses. When they run up and down the length of the run, the placement of those timbers causes the dog to stretch out.


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## Aly

dogfaeries said:


> My breeder has a few dirt runs that are about 100’ feet long. There are landscaping timbers half buried in the dirt, spaced out like cavalettis for horses. When they run up and down the length of the run, the placement of those timbers causes the dog to stretch out.


Very smart!


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## Nurse Bishop

Yea we use cavalettis for horses to lengthen stride at a trot.


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## Nigel

Thanks everyone who took the time to share your knowledge, post videos, pictures, and others who had questions of their own. I've gotten a lot out this and have a much clearer image of what proper movement is now.


----------



## LeoRose

Now, because I'm curious about what other people think, I'm throwing out this video of Leo. I'm pretty sure there is WGSL behind her somewhere, and her entire front assembly is atrocious (straight shoulders, short forearm, tied in elbows, narrow chested and easty-westy). This is a fairly slow trot, and I think she has a distinct lack of reach and drive. 






This is a still photo of her at a trot.

2017-6-9 Dogs & Yard DSC_0548 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

And a photo of her standing. 

2017-9-8 CC110 baseline Leo Left by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr


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## Squad50FF

I don't know anything about Toby's line or background, but here he is for reference.


----------



## Nigel

LeoRose said:


> Now, because I'm curious about what other people think, I'm throwing out this video of Leo. I'm pretty sure there is WGSL behind her somewhere, and her entire front assembly is atrocious (straight shoulders, short forearm, tied in elbows, narrow chested and easty-westy). This is a fairly slow trot, and I think she has a distinct lack of reach and drive.
> 
> https://youtu.be/P5ictp-db60
> 
> This is a still photo of her at a trot.
> 
> 2017-6-9 Dogs & Yard DSC_0548 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr
> 
> And a photo of her standing.
> 
> 2017-9-8 CC110 baseline Leo Left by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr


Obviously I’m not speaking from experience here, but is Leo moving fast enough to reach a full trot?


----------



## LeoRose

Nigel said:


> Obviously I’m not speaking from experience here, but is Leo moving fast enough to reach a full trot?


No, she's at a fairly slow to medium trot in the video. Maybe a bit faster in the photograph. It's a pretty small yard.


----------



## Aly

Nurse Bishop said:


> Yea we use cavalettis for horses to lengthen stride at a trot.


Well, you can use cavalettis for several purposes with horses (e.g., increase jump in the canter, improve trot elevation, extend the frame, overall gymnastics). With the trot (especially at the beginning of cavaletti work) you're really trying to teach the horse to power off from the hind end, channel that energy through an increasingly supple/strong, back, which allows further reach through the shoulders. What we might call 'lengthening' the trot is a_ consequence_ of correct movement, not the goal. The nice thing about all of this is that you can improve any horse's way of going (no matter how unfortunate) by systematic, correct cavaletti work and good riding. 

Which gets me to a conundrum. I've often wondered how well one could apply cavaletti principles to improve movement and soundness in dogs. I love the idea and see some intriguing parallels, but still wonder about this. An obvious and immediate problem is that we don't _ride _dogs, so the rider's influence is absent. That's key. We may have to become more (highly?) creative in how we design and use obstacles to improve movement in dogs. A second issue is I don't know whether there's been systematic study of canine movement paralleling Clayton's work with horses. (If anybody knows, please post links). While there are some obvious similarities, I often wonder how well the same principles would apply. Finally, different breeds have different characteristic 'movement.' Some breeds gallop, others are noted for a ground-eating trot, and still others, well, just _waddle_. 

That said, I do believe that _any _systematic activity that increases the dog's fitness, agility and endurance is a good thing. 

Intriguing to think about.

Aly


----------



## carmspack

if you want to be a student of conformation you have to look at the best , closest examples of the ideal .

You have to keep finding those outstanding specimens, understand the anatomy , and burn the images
into your mind . 

Linda Shaw - The Illustrated Standard for the German Shepherd Dog 

You can not , should not , compare equine anatomy and equine movement to that of a 
functional balanced canine capable of efficient enduring movement and speed when needed.

since the first 50 pages are viewable at amazon check our page 6.

the ideals are represented by wolf (page 5) coyote , African hunting dog, and Asian dhole.

the "good stuff" , the importance of a high wither that flows into a short straight back , and
more , begins after the freebie section - probably page 52.
Once the anatomy has been discussed in length - at page 139 you have an entire
section showing The Mechanics of Movement.

so much thought and energy was spent by Linda to get the equine comparisons changed .

horses have a fixed trunk -- canines do not . 

great to see the level of involvement with pictures and videos of dogs being offered up as "samples"
BUT I have to point out that the dogs are not correct 
There were dogs that appeared table top flat -- short sshtumpy necks , low withers ,
.
There are dogs that are restricted . Others that are falling hard on the fore hand . 
A roach does not have to be extreme to impair movement .

I like Faust Busecker Schloss as an example of a beautiful top line -- the entire "back" .

I mean he shows everything that you would want . 
Faust vom Busecker Schloß


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Aly said:


> Well, you can use cavalettis for several purposes with horses (e.g., increase jump in the canter, improve trot elevation, extend the frame, overall gymnastics). With the trot (especially at the beginning of cavaletti work) you're really trying to teach the horse to power off from the hind end, channel that energy through an increasingly supple/strong, back, which allows further reach through the shoulders. What we might call 'lengthening' the trot is a_ consequence_ of correct movement, not the goal. The nice thing about all of this is that you can improve any horse's way of going (no matter how unfortunate) by systematic, correct cavaletti work and good riding.
> 
> Which gets me to a conundrum. I've often wondered how well one could apply cavaletti principles to improve movement and soundness in dogs. I love the idea and see some intriguing parallels, but still wonder about this. An obvious and immediate problem is that we don't _ride _dogs, so the rider's influence is absent. That's key. We may have to become more (highly?) creative in how we design and use obstacles to improve movement in dogs. A second issue is I don't know whether there's been systematic study of canine movement paralleling Clayton's work with horses. (If anybody knows, please post links). While there are some obvious similarities, I often wonder how well the same principles would apply. Finally, different breeds have different characteristic 'movement.' Some breeds gallop, others are noted for a ground-eating trot, and still others, well, just _waddle_.
> 
> That said, I do believe that _any _systematic activity that increases the dog's fitness, agility and endurance is a good thing.
> 
> Intriguing to think about.
> 
> Aly


yea that what I was thinking too. We can push horses with our seat to lengthen stride, but not dogs. I suppose if you can teach a dog to stack for a show you could teach them a reachy trot for the show ring. What I see is people teaching their show dog to pull like a frieght train and this makes them look even more down hill.

What I like about properly built WGSL dogs is the look, the saddleback and the fact that they have (or had) to be titled in Europe in order to register their puppies. To me, this is breeding for biddability and good nerve going back generations. But I am just a first time GSD owner so what do I know ?  When we were training Inga for her 30 commands, we used the advice of Don Sullivan, an internet trainer. She showed solid nerve, did not flinch at gunfire, and showed for a while some handler aggression in the form of a brief little snarly face when put into a down. Maybe it was not handler aggression, maybe it was just a protest, maybe caused by her inexperienced trainer. So I looked up her pedigree and counted over 200 Schutzhunds in the wood pile. So I thought Inga must be working line. Nope, WGSL.

How about measuring length of stide? Does that tell anything about the trot? I havn't tried to measure Ingas stride at the trot, but at the gallop its 11'. And what about where the feet fall in the track? That can tell a lot about the stride and style of a gaited horse, such as when the hind hoove tracks in front of the hind.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Faust vom Busecker Schloß > WOW YES! 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=4764-faust-vom-busecker-schlo


----------



## Sabis mom

carmspack said:


> if you want to be a student of conformation you have to look at the best , closest examples of the ideal .
> 
> You have to keep finding those outstanding specimens, understand the anatomy , and burn the images
> into your mind .
> 
> Linda Shaw - The Illustrated Standard for the German Shepherd Dog
> 
> You can not , should not , compare equine anatomy and equine movement to that of a
> functional balanced canine capable of efficient enduring movement and speed when needed.
> 
> since the first 50 pages are viewable at amazon check our page 6.
> 
> the ideals are represented by wolf (page 5) coyote , African hunting dog, and Asian dhole.
> 
> the "good stuff" , the importance of a high wither that flows into a short straight back , and
> more , begins after the freebie section - probably page 52.
> Once the anatomy has been discussed in length - at page 139 you have an entire
> section showing The Mechanics of Movement.
> 
> so much thought and energy was spent by Linda to get the equine comparisons changed .
> 
> horses have a fixed trunk -- canines do not .
> 
> great to see the level of involvement with pictures and videos of dogs being offered up as "samples"
> BUT I have to point out that the dogs are not correct
> There were dogs that appeared table top flat -- short sshtumpy necks , low withers ,
> .
> There are dogs that are restricted . Others that are falling hard on the fore hand .
> A roach does not have to be extreme to impair movement .
> 
> I like Faust Busecker Schloss as an example of a beautiful top line -- the entire "back" .
> 
> I mean he shows everything that you would want .
> Faust vom Busecker Schloß


I did not think that dogs and horses moved the same, I have never studied canine movement so the only thing I can speak to is equine motion. I only posted the picture of Shadow to try and clarify foot placement. 
I was fairly certain that hers was correct for a trot but I don't know for sure.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

For instance, the suspended gallop of the sighthound breed. The suspended part is when they are flying though the air with all four feet off the ground. Think of the Greyhound Bus picture. That is a very flexible spine.


----------



## carmspack

a GSD and the sight hound group are totally different.

A sprinter , short spurts of speed , and a long distance runner -- one a specialist , the other , ideally as
close to nature balanced dog for stamina .

so with this comment "What I like about properly built WGSL dogs: I had dozens of randomly selected
SV magazines out to look for the properly build WGSL. Where is he or she ?

all the dogs that were correct sort of came to an end in the mid 80's .

here are some that are examples of what was - and the important point is they were approved and desired and rewarded by "the system" by the SV 

here you go in no particular order

negus kirschental Negus vom Kirschental
kirschental 

ossi vom kirschental Ossa Vom Kirschental 

ary vom kleinen taller Ary vom kleinen Taller 

quanto wienerau ........

I didn't want to go backwards into time -- going forwards , especially in the last 5 years - the current
breeding crop , who would represent this correct conformation?

what happened.

the OP likes " the look, the saddleback" fine and dandy - a personal cosmetic consideration --- some have no more "saddle" than the coverage that a drapped table napkin would cover - and some have a mysterious 
straight line of sharp delineation of pitch black to orange .

look at the gsd , from the "show lines" of the era that I gave samples from --- sadle backs ? where ?
also notice no bitch stripes.

going back to 200 schutzhund titles means little -- it is a necessary evil and all SV breeding dogs have titles
minimum of a One .

there is an enormous , unbridgeable gap in the working line test and the show line performance -- 
no comparison between BSP and the Sieger show which both post results.


show me .


----------



## Sunsilver

there is an enormous , unbridgeable gap in the working line test and the show line performance -

Very true - just look at the performance of the VA1 dog in the 2017 Sieger show. Most club level dogs I know can do better bitework than that! The dog doesn't even know how to do a proper 'bark and hold'! 

2017 SV Bundessiegerzuchtschau in Ulm video - Page 1

Carm, as I'm sure you know, those dogs you posted would not do well now in the conformation classes. Today's dogs are much heavier and bulkier, and of course, no longer as agile as a result. Heads are heavier, too, with apple-domed skulls and droopy flews.


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## Vandal

I think people should just stop talking about it. It's over. The SV has succeeded in eliminating SchH and asked people to believe that they simply changed the name. They did no such thing. IPO existed at the same time as the SchH title. So, all they did was get rid of the breed test. And now we are asked to believe they are changing the name once again. No, they are now getting rid of IPO. And all the history that goes with those two titles are going away as well. 
When they dumped SchH back in 2010, they also changed the breed standard. They removed courage, hardness and fighting drive as required breed characteristics. Instead, the dogs must "withstand pressure". Anyone who thinks the two descriptions are equal, does not understand the German Shepherd dog. Many dogs can withstand pressure, and when they removed courage, hardness, fighting drive… they pretty much said the GSD can be just like any kind of dog.

I think if anyone wants to be concerned about anything at this point, it should be about what they are claiming is a breed test. IPO in its current form, is not a breed test. It hasn't been for quite some time but people continue to cling to that to make their average sport dog seem like something special. And when it becomes IPG or whatever ridiculous crap they're going to call it, it will be even less of one. People are busy breeding sport and performance dogs, when in fact they should be trying to breed a German Shepherd dog. They overlook the corruption, because on the day they showed their dog, we are asked to believe everything was perfect and above board. But the rest of the time they are more willing to admit how corrupt it is. When 1/2 of the breed is handed a title for basically proving it's not breed worthy, I don't see how anyone can hold up a title as proof of anything. 
We have our own organization in America. They continue to use Schutzhund as part of the name of that organization but for some bizarre reason, they can't offer a title with the same name. Because they insist on following Europe off the cliff. Why? I have no idea but I suspect it has something to do with money and ego and all the things that matter to people now, that shouldn't be so important. The dogs are what should matter but that's been relegated way down the list.


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## lhczth

Excellent commentary, as usual, Anne.


This dog was probably as close as could be to Stephanitz's ideal. Notice the long upper arm and excellent angles, no extremes, front and rear. He was said to be a tremendous mover. Also note the high withers flowing into a short back, short loin and long slightly sloping croup.


Want to add, those used to seeing the shoulder of the modern dogs will think his shoulder looks straight. You have to note that the scapula extends way back into the withers instead of all of the angulation being created by the upper arm being positioned far back under the body. This gave the dog the ability to open up the shoulder to move.


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## carmspack

perfectly said ms Vandal 
well this girl has some fighting spirit left -- I can't let my friend's work and passion go for nought.

I can't recall the hours and hours that Linda Shaw and I sat at a cafe with the entire table spread
with charts and pedigrees and archival material.

there were other projects pending - I am sure there is a volume of correspondence - lively debate 
and tutorial sessions with other influential breed enthusiasts.

the SV is dictatorial -- it is on a campaign of destruction (of the breed) with instituitional 
proportions.

don't drink that kool-aide , a sentiment often made by Linda.

the shame is that there is a trend in sport dogs also.

the last trial we attended had a dog , working lines, that every spectator that had joined
us , very experienced , multi title , highest levels including Regionals and Natrionals called
the performance -- NQ -- major failure - more than once failed to engage . no controll

if I tell you the dog got high points and pronounced . Total disbelief . What was left .
What value is a title . Do you have to SEE a performance to gather any information ?

True.

And then we sat on the grass , well out of the way , having a quiet personal discussion and a 
dog is lead up to visit and almost does a face bite on Linda.

She often said , I hope I am not too late . There was that sinking feeling.

to this statement "Carm, as I'm sure you know, those dogs you posted would not do well now in the conformation classes"

Of course NOT . NO and more no. So much for the challenge , well why don't you take your examples
of good and proper conformation into the ring - to exhibit and teach --- your time , your expense,
laughing stock , been there done that , persisted - rewarced with an empty soft drink can being tossed
at me to unnerve me.

didn't work -- 

for my part I will keep on celebrating those that are trying to keep things together .

we had a member from Norway - boy she had a nice dog - old working lines without needing to 
concentrate on modern marketable popular names

th


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## Thecowboysgirl

lhczth said:


> Excellent commentary, as usual, Anne.
> 
> 
> This dog was probably as close as could be to Stephanitz's ideal. Notice the long upper arm and excellent angles, no extremes, front and rear. He was said to be a tremendous mover. Also note the high withers flowing into a short back, short loin and long slightly sloping croup.
> 
> 
> Want to add, those used to seeing the shoulder of the modern dogs will think his shoulder looks straight. You have to note that the scapula extends way back into the withers instead of all of the angulation being created by the upper arm being positioned far back under the body. This gave the dog the ability to open up the shoulder to move.


I don't even think most of the working lines look like this anymore either, though. Why did they change too if they are not pursuing show conformation fads?


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## LeoRose

I took a really interesting class on canine structure and movement. 

From what I understand, most dogs, GSD included, do a single suspension gallop, with the sequence of "front foot, front foot, hind foot, hind foot, large leap forward moment of suspension, front foot, front foot, hind foot, hind foot, large leap forward moment of suspension". 

The double suspension gallop, with a sequence of "front foot, front foot, moment of significant forward suspension, hind foot, hind foot, large leap forward moment of suspension, front foot, front foot, moment of significant forward suspension, hind foot, hind foot" while commonly associated with sighthounds, is not exclusive to them. Non-sighthound breeds _can _do it, but are more likely to have a single suspension gallop 

Leo in the forward leap suspension phase at a gallop during a CAT (photograph of a framed photograph, so ... quality...). 

20180828_112816 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

A picture showing the moment just after the "front foot, front foot" sequence, where the hind feet are just about to hit. 

CAT & Brenham 4-20&21-13 385_01 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

Another picture of her just running in the yard. Since she's not going anywhere near as fast as she was lure coursing, the "large forward leap of suspension" moment isn't as dramatic. It does, however, show a nice example of the rotary gallop, in which the front leg and hind legs are on different leads. 

2015-7-8 Leo & Lily DSC_0711 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr


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## Vandal

I see a trend of stacking the dogs like Dobermans with the legs pulled back too far to create this look. And yes, working line people are doing it. 
But more concerning is the behavior of the people involved. I've been in the sport since the mid-70s. I don't say that for any other reason than to verify that I've watched it all happen. I saw high placing dogs from the Sieger Show in Germany who were absolutely fantastic working dogs as well. That was when it was a conformation show and no one at that time called showing your dog there, a "sport".

What strikes me now is when you point out what is happening in the training of the WL dogs... (that they are not using the drives and instincts protection was intended to put on display) , the people attack you much the same way as the show line people did when the structure started to really become grotesque. Well a judge told them it was correct.... so of course, you were wrong when you tried to point it out. I did watch Linda Shaw being attacked relentlessly for discussing proper structure. Anyone who has read this forum long enough might remember the "green board". It was virtually impossible to have a reasonable discussion about structure on that board.
It's now the same with the working dog people. It has become much more political, you have certain groups of people that all cluster together and attack anyone who doesn't agree with the way they do things. They seem to have the same ignorant following of new people the show line folks have, who are more impressed with flash than function.
That didn't happen so much when it was about the dogs. But now it's more about the people. Sure, there were people who didn't particularly like each other but there was that common bond that was preserving the breed. It's not about that now. Many of the dogs are too excitable, they don't "think" they simply react, many of the trainers are using avoidance behavior in the protection work .....which is something we all knew not to do. And I could go on. There is no point. It is going to keep going because no one seems to want to do anything about it. They all simply devolve with it and try to justify it. 
I knew where it was headed years ago and I know where this is headed. And it's going to be a disaster for the breed.


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## Nurse Bishop

" 
"going back to 200 schutzhund titles means little -- it is a necessary evil and all SV breeding dogs have titles
minimum of a One ."

It means that the WGSL dogs were bred from solid nerve, biddable dogs for generations. As for the saddleback, yes I like the look. But I also like that the ignorant low life robbers and burglars know at first glance Thats Definitely a German Shepherd.


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## Vandal

I would say that was true to a degree back in the 60s, 70s and for the most part the 1980s. But once the 1990s rolled around, I witnessed one fake title handed out after another. Breed surveys where dogs were literally chased and got breed survey one for life etc. etc. It is really a crying shame what has gone on. It was a very useful test but what you could learn about the German Shepherd dog was what was most important.


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## Nurse Bishop

Carmspack, those beautiful examples of GSD you showed- to me they are all saddlebacks. What do you call that? A blanketback? 

Obviously I like blanketbacks.


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## Sunsilver

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't even think most of the working lines look like this anymore either, though. Why did they change too if they are not pursuing show conformation fads?


Some of them are. This well-know working line dog is definitely showing some of the SL trends in his structure:

Bomber vom Wolfsheim

Nurse Bishop - LOL~


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## Nurse Bishop

Carmspack,this is what I thought was a saddleback. Look, I am new to this. She is a great dog, a wonderful dog, the best dog that I've ever had in my life. Solid nerve, extremely biddable, but I suspect she is lacking in drive. For instance, she will play stick, a game she loves, and after a while will just get the stick and lie down in the shade. Maybe she is just hot but I think she is somewhat lazy. And as a ranch dog we trained the prey drive right out of her so she whould not chase livestock or critter. I think if as a first GSD we had gotten a working lines, we would have been out of our league as novice trainers.


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## Sunsilver

Nurse Bishop, I'd take her home and feed her, for sure! Nice looking girl!

As for the working lines, it's extremely hard right now to find one without this dog in its pedigree multiple times, as well as his two most popular sons, Troll and Timmy. Again, notice the changes to the angle of the pelvis and croup, similar to Bomber:

Got to get that precious V conformation rating, so mimicking the showline structure!

Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich


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## WateryTart

Nurse Bishop said:


> Carmspack,this is what I thought was a saddleback. Look, I am new to this. She is a great dog, a wonderful dog, the best dog that I've ever had in my life. Solid nerve, extremely biddable, but I suspect she is lacking in drive. For instance, she will play stick, a game she loves, and after a while will just get the stick and lie down in the shade. Maybe she is just hot but I think she is somewhat lazy. And as a ranch dog we trained the prey drive right out of her so she whould not chase livestock or critter. I think if as a first GSD we had gotten a working lines, we would have been out of our league as novice trainers.


I thought you couldn’t train out things that are inherent to the dog’s. You can suppress a behavior, but you can’t get rid of something that is part of their innate makeup. Maybe I am not understanding drive well.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sunsilver

WT, I had a male GSD that nearly killed my cat when I first introduced them. It took awhile, and careful supervision, but he learned the cat was a 'pack member' and not to be harmed. They would actually play together, which was very cute to watch. He became quite depressed when the cat slipped out of the house one night and got run over by a car.

Same thing with my uncle's barn cats: the dog got along fine with the resident cats, but any strange cats it caught on the farm were fair game!

I am sure there are some dogs whose prey drive is too strong to ever be trusted with other animals (terriers especially, because that's what they're bred for) but most dogs can be taught to leave them alone.


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## WateryTart

Sunsilver said:


> WT, I had a male GSD that nearly killed my cat when I first introduced them. It took awhile, and careful supervision, but he learned the cat was a 'pack member' and not to be harmed. They would actually play together, which was very cute to watch. He became quite depressed when the cat slipped out of the house one night and got run over by a car.
> 
> 
> 
> Same thing with my uncle's barn cats: the dog got along fine with the resident cats, but any strange cats it caught on the farm were fair game!
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure there are some dogs whose prey drive is too strong to ever be trusted with other animals (terriers especially, because that's what they're bred for) but most dogs can be taught to leave them alone.


To me that’s behavior modification, not actually ridding the dog of drive.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nurse Bishop

WateryTart said:


> I thought you couldn’t train out things that are inherent to the dog’s. You can suppress a behavior, but you can’t get rid of something that is part of their innate makeup. Maybe I am not understanding drive well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Inga has been 'supressed' from chasing livestock (because angry mama cows can kill a young dog and because chasing other peoples stock can get her shot) by judicious use of an e collar. She was supressed from crittering after deer because she could get killed chasing them onto the road. She is supressed from chasing wild hogs because they could be eviscerate her with their tusks. She was discouraged from preying on my pet chickens and she lies by the gate as they run out past her nose and she sits on a high place scanning the countyside for coyotes. She is supressed from chasing (and killing) rabbits because crittering is crittering. All with use of e collar corrections if she broke a command that she well knew. Nowdays, all that is required when she even starts to stare at at a prey animal is a loud NO. But if she was too far away to hear the command the e collar is effective to 500 yards. She only preys on sticks and balls and play tug. She will 'get' and 'bring' an errant pony when I point at him. I'm pretty proud of her, she is a good ranch dog and keeps away no goodniks too.


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## Sunsilver

WateryTart said:


> To me that’s behavior modification, not actually ridding the dog of drive.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good point! :smile2:

Part of it comes from the dog's natural instinct to regard other pets or farm animals as pack members. My uncles' dog grew up with the cats, and never had to be taught to leave them alone. 

Well, no, maybe Momma Cat smacking her nose when she bothered the kittens provided the needed 'behaviour modification'! :laugh2:

I was there the morning the dog (as an 8 week old pup) was first introduced to the cats. She and the kittens were all drinking fresh milk out of the same bowl when Momma came along, saw this strange animal next to her offspring, arched her back and hissed. The kittens immediately all imitated Mom.

The poor puppy backed off from the milk dish, wondering what the heck had happened!


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## Ken Clean-Air System

Sunsilver said:


> Nurse Bishop, I'd take her home and feed her, for sure! Nice looking girl!
> 
> As for the working lines, it's extremely hard right now to find one without this dog in its pedigree multiple times, as well as his two most popular sons, Troll and Timmy. Again, notice the changes to the angle of the pelvis and croup, similar to Bomber:
> 
> Got to get that precious V conformation rating, so mimicking the showline structure!
> 
> Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich


But the reason you see Fero so much in working line pedigrees really has little to do with his conformation. He produced lots of winning sport dogs, and dogs who produced winners themselves (Troll, Timmy, Yoschy).


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## Sunsilver

Yes, of course. But the V rating sure doesn't hurt his popularity!

Unfortunately, the backmassing that is occurring on these dogs is NOT good for the breed. It is producing dogs that have trouble capping their drive.


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## lhczth

Sunsilver said:


> Some of them are. This well-know working line dog is definitely showing some of the SL trends in his structure:
> 
> Bomber vom Wolfsheim
> 
> Nurse Bishop - LOL~



I have never seen Bomber in person, but something to take note of when looking at these pictures. Most of the famous professional GSD photographers have a set model that they use for each dog. Those photos are heavily altered to make the dogs look like every other dog. I have seen it done to dogs that I know for sure don't look like that in person and wonder what dog they were photographing.


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## clipke

My dog has a super straight back, I'm always getting questions about it at the dog park. "Isn't his back suppose to be arched downward?", no, no it is not. It's like even the general public expects GSDs to look this way now. It's sickening tbh.


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## carmspack

Nurse Bishop said:


> "
> "going back to 200 schutzhund titles means little -- it is a necessary evil and all SV breeding dogs have titles
> minimum of a One ."
> 
> It means that the WGSL dogs were bred from solid nerve, biddable dogs for generations. As for the saddleback, yes I like the look. But I also like that the ignorant low life robbers and burglars know at first glance Thats Definitely a German Shepherd.


""It means that the WGSL dogs were bred from solid nerve, biddable dogs for generations. 

Unfortunately by no means is this anywhere near the truth. It just is not so.
Look to the best of the best at the SV sieger show and see the comedy .

there is no active aggression, no mental or physical stamina for pressure and tension - all the while remaining in self control.

sorry


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## Nigel

lhczth said:


> I have never seen Bomber in person, but something to take note of when looking at these pictures. Most of the famous professional GSD photographers have a set model that they use for each dog. Those photos are heavily altered to make the dogs look like every other dog. I have seen it done to dogs that I know for sure don't look like that in person and wonder what dog they were photographing.


Ya know the old saying “the camera does add 10lbs”


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## clipke

Nigel said:


> Ya know the old saying “the camera does add 10lbs”


Fun fact: This is due to varying lens focal lengths. The longer the lens, typically the more distorted the image. Most portraits are shot between 50mm-100mm, anything wider than that and the subject will look super thin, anything longer and the subject will appear more front facing and wider.


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## Nigel

clipke said:


> Fun fact: This is due to varying lens focal lengths. The longer the lens, typically the more distorted the image. Most portraits are shot between 50mm-100mm, anything wider than that and the subject will look super thin, anything longer and the subject will appear more front facing and wider.


I had seen a gif made of the same guy earlier today. I know that's not what Lisa was referring too, but It's what came to mind when I saw the post. :smile2:


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## cliffson1

Vandal said:


> I think people should just stop talking about it. It's over. The SV has succeeded in eliminating SchH and asked people to believe that they simply changed the name. They did no such thing. IPO existed at the same time as the SchH title. So, all they did was get rid of the breed test. And now we are asked to believe they are changing the name once again. No, they are now getting rid of IPO. And all the history that goes with those two titles are going away as well.
> When they dumped SchH back in 2010, they also changed the breed standard. They removed courage, hardness and fighting drive as required breed characteristics. Instead, the dogs must "withstand pressure". Anyone who thinks the two descriptions are equal, does not understand the German Shepherd dog. Many dogs can withstand pressure, and when they removed courage, hardness, fighting drive… they pretty much said the GSD can be just like any kind of dog.
> 
> I think if anyone wants to be concerned about anything at this point, it should be about what they are claiming is a breed test. IPO in its current form, is not a breed test. It hasn't been for quite some time but people continue to cling to that to make their average sport dog seem like something special. And when it becomes IPG or whatever ridiculous crap they're going to call it, it will be even less of one. People are busy breeding sport and performance dogs, when in fact they should be trying to breed a German Shepherd dog. They overlook the corruption, because on the day they showed their dog, we are asked to believe everything was perfect and above board. But the rest of the time they are more willing to admit how corrupt it is. When 1/2 of the breed is handed a title for basically proving it's not breed worthy, I don't see how anyone can hold up a title as proof of anything.
> We have our own organization in America. They continue to use Schutzhund as part of the name of that organization but for some bizarre reason, they can't offer a title with the same name. Because they insist on following Europe off the cliff. Why? I have no idea but I suspect it has something to do with money and ego and all the things that matter to people now, that shouldn't be so important. The dogs are what should matter but that's been relegated way down the list.


Excellent Post! Says it in nutshell!


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## Nurse Bishop

carmspack said:


> ""It means that the WGSL dogs were bred from solid nerve, biddable dogs for generations.
> 
> Unfortunately by no means is this anywhere near the truth. It just is not so.
> Look to the best of the best at the SV sieger show and see the comedy .
> 
> there is no active aggression, no mental or physical stamina for pressure and tension - all the while remaining in self control.
> 
> sorry


Those were dogs in a show, showdogs in Germany 11 years ago. What are GSDs supposed to do in a show? Have rolling dogs fights?

Carms, really I appreciate and respect your expertise, but I am really only interested in the WGSL dogs avaliable to the ordinary person in the United States. WGSL decendants were were bred from dogs that had to be titled in something usefull for generations. I would like to see pictures of dogs belonging to members here, just standing there not stacked.


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## wolfy dog

No matter how sad, I do understand why they are breeding away from the original standard in temperament and drive. Society has changed; people are working full time and dogs, any breed, have to conform to this new way of life. How many dogs have the luxury to be a true working dog, how many dogs can truly use their aggression and hard drive without causing law suits? Most are pets. Many of us have here working dogs but once a week an agility session or PP training doesn't cut it for them really. I am just as guilty of course, even though I am home with them and work and play with them whenever I can but they don't have a real job. Yet they seem happy and content, despite their intensity and drive. I feel guilty that they have to contain their prey drive with an E-collar but that's the way society is right now; if they were caught chasing deer, they would be impounded or hit by a car.
It seems that nowadays, people go for the looks when choosing a breed and the various temperaments have melted into a generic type of personality in dogs. As an example: while living in Europe, I saw the Bouvier having been morphed into a 'bear rug'; soft coat and lazy.


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## lhczth

This is an excuse used to destroy a breed all in the name of $$$$$$$$$$$$. The problem is, that in the process of trying to make a prick eared dog for everyone, they are destroying the temperament, nerves and health of the breed. Have watched it happen in so many working breeds.


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## Vandal

If people could see how much the watered down versions are absolutely not good pets, maybe they wouldn't try to justify it.
I own and operate a boarding kennel. It's a rarity to see a good German Shepherd come in here nowadays and sadly, that includes working line dogs. Most behave like idiots, are neurotic, try to destroy the fencing, bark endlessly, try to attack their neighbors through the fence etc.....all due to their incredibly bad nerves and weak temperament. 
The good ones are much more composed and can remain calmer due to their stronger nerves and temperament. They really stand out, I have one here right now that makes me stop and take notice because he is such a good dog.
The answer does not lie in destroying a breed to satisfy the lazy people who shouldn't own a dog. The answer is to discourage those people from having them. and also for knowledgeable dog people to spend more time educating the incredibly ignorant masses. Yes, it is difficult to place a good dog, any good dog, but that's no reason to destroy the breed. Sorry I absolutely do not agree with the above post.


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## Nigel

So essentially the GSD is a product and in order to increase sales they've been watered down to make them more appealing to the general public.


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## Nurse Bishop

My husband and I were talking just this morning about our next dog, hopefully in the far distant future, will be a Mal. But if we hadn't learned to train Inga, we would be out of our league with a Malinois.


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## carmspack

Hi Vandal - could you clarify exactly which post you were referring to when you said " Sorry I absolutely do not agree with the above post." because the post directly above your post was Lisa's and it was pretty good.

it happens that by the time you have typed and submitted your post drops down below some other entries posted within seconds of your own.

I said before that you have to have an image of the ideal , which may be imperfect but has to be balanced to remain totally functional.

so back to this --- in this thread we seem to be having two levels of conversation 
one is to share what should be , what could be , with historical references and current research and 
reference material . This conversation comments on the SV sanctioned destruction of a noble "legendary"
breed started by yourself Bishop with the horrifying backs thread title.

the dogs are abnormal -- dysfunctional . If I had to make a good comparison to explain the level of "grotesque"
(Vandal's word) I would take a common goldfish - natural carp body - darting through water and compare it to a "fancy goldfish" with its roached back and compressed organs , who expends enegy, struggles , and goes nowhere .- 

the second level of conversation is happy pets and happy satisfied owners - but they are not breed examples
to aspire to for the breed at large.

here we go quote 

"Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
""It means that the WGSL dogs were bred from solid nerve, biddable dogs for generations. 

Unfortunately by no means is this anywhere near the truth. It just is not so.
Look to the best of the best at the SV sieger show and see the comedy .

there is no active aggression, no mental or physical stamina for pressure and tension - all the while remaining in self control.

sorry

Nurse Bishop
Those were dogs in a show, showdogs in Germany 11 years ago. What are GSDs supposed to do in a show? Have rolling dogs fights?

Carms, really I appreciate and respect your expertise, but I am really only interested in the WGSL dogs avaliable to the ordinary person in the United States. WGSL decendants were were bred from dogs that had to be titled in something usefull for generations. I would like to see pictures of dogs belonging to members here, just standing there not stacked.

Nurse Bishop "Those were dogs in a show, showdogs in Germany 11 years ago. What are GSDs supposed to do in a show? Have rolling dogs fights?"

??? no one is referring to a single video -- because the situation has not improved , if anything it is worse.
I know they were German dogs , German show line dogs , in Germany.
I don't follow your question about what they are supposed to do . Do you suggest that I expect them to have
dog to dog dust ups?
Is that a question you would ask of someone that you say you respect for some level of "expertise"

What are they supposed to do. WELL when they are tested (oh brother) in the protection phase I expect , oot hope, expect to see commitment, confidence,, courage and control. 
I want to see a dog who knows why he is there .
Instead you have dogs skidding , circling, playing with or avoiding the decoy , ooops I mean helper , and taking goose pecks a the arm , looking around for the handler .

this is not some pals getting together to have some fun with their dogs --- this is the big money event representing the best that the SV (showlines) has to offer . Opportunities for big commerce , because these are your breeding animals .
the breeding animals that will produce all those GSD available to the ordinary person in the USA .

You state again " WGSL decendants were were bred from dogs that had to be titled in something usefull for generations. "

But those are the dogs in the SV Sieger show held up to international ridicule because the performance has
deviated so much from the "legend" 
Pick a year 2016? 2017? I'll look forward to 2018.


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## DaveDogMan

*Rip gsd*

This is so sad. The grotesque conformation of these dogs are just the tip of the iceberg. I suspect the temperaments of these dogs are even worse. Max von Stephanitz must be rolling in his grave.


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## lhczth

carmspack said:


> Hi Vandal - could you clarify exactly which post you were referring to when you said " Sorry I absolutely do not agree with the above post." because the post directly above your post was Lisa's and it was pretty good.



Anne and I posted at the same time. I think she meant the one before mine.


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## Jax08

Nurse Bishop said:


> Those were dogs in a show, showdogs in Germany 11 years ago. What are GSDs supposed to do in a show? Have rolling dogs fights?
> ke


You should probably Google a show video before you ask a snotty question like that.

They are supposed to engage the helper. Not run away and and dance around them while avoid them.

AND they have the same shows and tests here so what is happening in Germany certainly affects the dogs in the US. You can't only care about the dogs here. They are all the same with Germany driving the status quo.


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## Sunsilver

Recently became acquainted with a gorgeous black and red German showline who seemed to have all the Right Stuff. Tons of drive, excellent retrieves on the dumb bell and nice focused heeling. His structure was very solid, too, with no visible roach back. He was from a very well known local kennel that has been breeding for many years. Wow, maybe there IS hope after all!

Then I saw his bitework. The decoy spent most of their practice time trying to get the dog to take a decent full-mouth grip on the sleeve. He also showed the curled back lips (sign of nerves/avoidance) that Carm or Gustav pointed out in a photo of my showline dog. His bark on the bark and hold was high-pitched and nervous.

I've heard it said many, many times. The full-mouthed bite is genetic. You really can't train it. And these dogs don't have it anymore.


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## Nurse Bishop

My American bred for generations WGSL, straight backed ranch dog who brings me whatever horse I point at, who has the courage to take on a bear or a sounder of wild hogs, who stands for gunfire, who knew 30 commands by age 2, she is just a no good useless WGSL with a bitch stripe. I guess I'll have to get a Mal next time. And by the way, this thread has become like Aella's wolf pit.


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## carmspack

Jax08 said:


> You should probably Google a show video before you ask a snotty question like that.
> 
> They are supposed to engage the helper. Not run away and and dance around them while avoid them.
> 
> AND they have the same shows and tests here so what is happening in Germany certainly affects the dogs in the US. You can't only care about the dogs here. They are all the same with Germany driving the status quo.


yes --
Nurse Bishop there are so many ill informed , and gullible people on this side of the world that put a value on titles that is not justified . They can not look beyond the title .
That includes the average owner , pet AND breeders .

let me give you a true example , recent, 

there is a "showline" which has these "generations" of titled HGH dogs and Sch H / IPO titles . This is supposed to bring credibility to them.

they promote themselves as working line. Excuse me , show line with a title that has
been tainted just like the SV titling system enabling inadequately performing dogs to get a title.

there is a family that had a dog from me , used professionally in LE - retired to their home until his last days . 
they felt the void and I did not have anything , would not have anything for a long time .
they went out and got one , and six months later got another from the same place.

those poor dogs had health issues, orthopedic and just facing life , health and temperamental issues -- but with great deal of love and money and support those dogs
lived out their days , well-loved .

I never ever get upset with the dogs . I advocate for them. Do whatever I can to help the owners, help the dogs . 

I am upset with the breeders who don't give a care, $$$, and are fully knowledgeable and continue . One of those offender breeders is often asked about on this forum.
There is no stopping them. 

So when those gentle dogs passed , once again those people , who I like and care about,
asked what my situation was because they did not want to relive the draining experience they had just been through.

I didn't and don't have anything - and so the next communication was all happy excitement they let me know that they had found a working line , which was what they
wanted, not too far from them and an appointment had been set up to see the pups.

Bait . Who can deny a cute puppy. They went and got their hit of puppy .

I asked about the breeder and the pedigree because i am always interested in what is available. Did I know them? 

turned out to be WGSL's - breeder representing them , and themselves as working line breeders because of he HGH titles.

they didn't work their dogs. All imports directly from Germany , with V and VA and IPO and even HGH --- they were ignorant and they wold to an equally non-cirtical group.

I suggested, because these people had been put through the ringer , that they have someone come in and do a siimple "classic" puppy test - you know the one , cradle pup,
hold them to see what level of protest or acceptance , a little fetch etc. 

the tester also works for shelters to evaluate rescues so that they get the best chance
of rehoming .

folks . 9 pups . ONLY two of them passed the noise sensitivity test . That is so basic to
nerve .
Apparently the reactions swung from mild with recovery but too long - to extreeme
hiding behind the couch - and leaving the room . YIKES

Nurse Bishop - there is your example --- titles up the ying yang --- maybe more than your 200 , maybe 300 dogs --- 

You sure can get a false sense of security .


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## Nurse Bishop

Inga gives me a fine sense of security here at this ranch and especially when I am alone in the forest in Oregon. Its not a false sense of security, its real.

Don't worry, I am not going to breed Inga. She is 2" over standard and her eyes are too light. But I see and train the dog in front of me, and she is an amasing dog, the best I have ever known in my life.


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## carmspack

lhczth said:


> Anne and I posted at the same time. I think she meant the one before mine.



lol - I know , but for readers it is a bit of a non-sequitor 

lol - when your throught-streams crossed , was it visible from outer space


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## GypsyGhost

Nurse Bishop- you have to understand that the critique of the value of titles has nothing to do with your dog. I like to see titles on a dog, and back in the pedigree, but I do agree with those that say they are not everything. You have to know what those titles actually represented. You cannot know that just by looking at titles listed on a computer screen. 

For example... I have two WL dogs. My male was my first GSD. I had no real idea what I was doing when I bought him. His parents were imported with titles, every dog in 7 generations of his pedigree was titled. His breeder was recommended on this forum, as well as by a trainer local to me when I was searching. He is a mess. His temperament is not what anyone would want when looking for a GSD, and he has a myriad of health issues to go along with it. Many of his siblings and half siblings have issues, both health and temperament, as well. In his case, those titles meant nothing. They did not make him a solid dog. They did not make him a healthy dog. Don’t get me wrong, I love him, and at home he is a good dog. But I cannot do the things I set out to do with him because genetically, he has weak nerves and is afraid of everything. 

My girl’s parents are also both titled. Most of the dogs in her pedigree are titled. Her breeder and the owner of her sire trained and titled their dogs themselves. They knew their dogs, they knew generations of their dogs’ relatives. Those titles mean something. Not because of the title itself, or the singular performance on the day they trialed their dogs, but because they took what their dogs showed them through years of training and looked at what the relatives to their dogs did -and produced- and made informed choices about their breeding plans. My girl is solid, can go anywhere, no issues. She’s healthy. She has a good balance of drives. She is fun to train in all of the venues we’ve tried. Her littermates and half siblings are also solid. 

There is a world of difference between the type of breeder who really understands their dogs, and works and titles them because they love their dogs, and the training, and the breed, and a breeder who slaps two dogs together because they happen to be titled, or they happen to be “pretty”, or they happen to be nice pets, with no real plan or expectation of what is to come from the breeding.


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## carmspack

Sunsilver said:


> Recently became acquainted with a gorgeous black and red German showline who seemed to have all the Right Stuff. Tons of drive, excellent retrieves on the dumb bell and nice focused heeling. His structure was very solid, too, with no visible roach back. He was from a very well known local kennel that has been breeding for many years. Wow, maybe there IS hope after all!
> 
> Then I saw his bitework. The decoy spent most of their practice time trying to get the dog to take a decent full-mouth grip on the sleeve. He also showed the curled back lips (sign of nerves/avoidance) that Carm or Gustav pointed out in a photo of my showline dog. His bark on the bark and hold was high-pitched and nervous.
> 
> I've heard it said many, many times. The full-mouthed bite is genetic. You really can't train it. And these dogs don't have it anymore.


yeah - there are some of those kennels run by a second generation -- 

I have said this before - that is fine and dandy - but you don't ride on the coat tails , you don't capitalize on some one elses reoogniition (deserved or not) .

go out , get and operate under your own name. 

there - done and out of the way.

put this on a tee-shirt -- It is easier to find drive than it is to find NERVE

that is the core of the problem


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## carmspack

Nurse Bishop said:


> My American bred for generations WGSL, straight backed ranch dog who brings me whatever horse I point at, who has the courage to take on a bear or a sounder of wild hogs, who stands for gunfire, who knew 30 commands by age 2, she is just a no good useless WGSL with a bitch stripe. I guess I'll have to get a Mal next time. And by the way, this thread has become like Aella's wolf pit.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqJHqXERslM


see - that is the other discussion . One is about the over all state that is in desperate need
of a reality check and change .
the other conversation is a defense of your personal dog , a singular dog .

Then, even with all that , you announce that your next dog will be a Mal . Situation better there? I don't think so . 

There are people that have invested the majority of their life , decades, with high exposure to hundreds of dogs , bearing witness to the continuing decline of the GSD and posting it right here in this thread .

I value their experiences . It is consistent with mine.

The Linda Shaw Illustrated Stndard for the GSD was the result of three years of intense
focused work . I saw the drafts - she had full access to my "library" which has arcival books and material you can't buy . 
There was an urgency to her effort. How many times did I hear this "I hope I'm not too late"

After three years pass and time passes with the launching of this best ever resource breed refernce book - the phrase had changed to a I thnk it is too late .

It is not about your dog.


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## Pytheis

Nurse Bishop, I don't think I saw a single person say a single negative thing about your dog. In fact, most people have simply stated that poor breeders produce poor dogs that are moving away from what German shepherds are supposed to be. Nobody said that all show lines are worthless. Nobody said that ALL show lines are unstable, weak-nerved, unhealthy, or anything of the sort. They merely commented on what they had seen from many show line dogs, or many GSDs in general, regardless of the line. Many is not all. If your dog is a great representation of the breed, great! That is all we want. It isn't about WGWL, WGSL, ASL, DDR, or anything like that. It is about responsible breeding and dogs that are good representations of the breed. The SV has been doing poorly with that lately. That is all. No one said anything about your dog whatsoever. No need to get extremely defensive.

For what it's worth, my WGSL puppy was a total mess, but I loved him anyway. It was heartbreaking when he died. He came from a breeder that had all titled dogs, but she didn't work them herself. I should have taken that as a no-go right there, but I didn't. The people on this forum were nothing but kind, supportive, and helpful when I asked for help with him. Nobody told me he was worthless because of his lines. Everyone just wanted to help, and I couldn't have been more grateful. Next time I will be more careful about where I get a puppy, and who knows? I may get another WGSL dog again. They can be amazing dogs, just like working lines can. It's all in the breeding.


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## Nurse Bishop

GypsyGhost said:


> Nurse Bishop- you have to understand that the critique of the value of titles has nothing to do with your dog. I like to see titles on a dog, and back in the pedigree, but I do agree with those that say they are not everything. You have to know what those titles actually represented. You cannot know that just by looking at titles listed on a computer screen.
> 
> For example... I have two WL dogs. My male was my first GSD. I had no real idea what I was doing when I bought him. His parents were imported with titles, every dog in 7 generations of his pedigree was titled. His breeder was recommended on this forum, as well as by a trainer local to me when I was searching. He is a mess. His temperament is not what anyone would want when looking for a GSD, and he has a myriad of health issues to go along with it. Many of his siblings and half siblings have issues, both health and temperament, as well. In his case, those titles meant nothing. They did not make him a solid dog. They did not make him a healthy dog. Don’t get me wrong, I love him, and at home he is a good dog. But I cannot do the things I set out to do with him because genetically, he has weak nerves and is afraid of everything.
> 
> My girl’s parents are also both titled. Most of the dogs in her pedigree are titled. Her breeder and the owner of her sire trained and titled their dogs themselves. They knew their dogs, they knew generations of their dogs’ relatives. Those titles mean something. Not because of the title itself, or the singular performance on the day they trialed their dogs, but because they took what their dogs showed them through years of training and looked at what the relatives to their dogs did -and produced- and made informed choices about their breeding plans. My girl is solid, can go anywhere, no issues. She’s healthy. She has a good balance of drives. She is fun to train in all of the venues we’ve tried. Her littermates and half siblings are also solid.
> 
> There is a world of difference between the type of breeder who really understands their dogs, and works and titles them because they love their dogs, and the training, and the breed, and a breeder who slaps two dogs together because they happen to be titled, or they happen to be “pretty”, or they happen to be nice pets, with no real plan or expectation of what is to come from the breeding.


You can look at titiles and know they were titled in something. That means the parents had to be solid and trainable. Maybe not in bitesports, but something. Of course not every breeding crossing two great dogs or any animals for that matter turns out great in the crap shoot of genetics. The great racehorse stallion Secretariat was a flop at the stud. 

I was a and am a total novice to GSDs. My whippet had died and I was lonesome for a dog and I wanted a real dog this time. Not that soft and gentle sighthounds are not real dogs, but I wanted a dog that was harder, intelligent, trainable and protective. I liked the look of Greman Shepherds, their strength and power, their beauty and alert look. So on the internet I found a breeder of GSDs that was somewhere in Central Texas. I did not ask where they WL or SL, I didn't know what that was. I went over there and Inga, 5 weeks old at the time, climbed into my lap three times. She picked me. That how I pick animals that are pets, like it's just meant to be. And it WAS meant to be. I took her home when she was old enough and she passed the vacuum cleaner test. yes, the vacuum cleaner test! Afraid of the vacuum? Not at all. hahahaha. Follow me into the surf and swim in the ocean at a few months old? She did that too. Come walking around a curve in the road just as neighboring ranchers opened up on the firing range? She just stood there. I said Hey look shes not even scared. They laughed and said thats because she is a police dog (some people refer to GSDs as police dogs, Inga is not and was not bred from police dogs). A handful to train, I had to teach myself to train and used every toy in the box. She is strong willed, not like any sighthound I have ever known. How did this happen? A dog bred fro WGSL- maybe I just got lucky. 

I am certainly not qualified to tell people how to breed GDSs or select a GSD puppy. I just saw an alarming video of the horrible way some german show dogs in 2007 walked. I did not even watch the whole thing because I could not bear to watch. Oh, was there a protection test too? Thank god I didn't see it. Apparently, some people are breeding the roach back out. 

We all agree here, that the GSD as a breed is going downhill, literally and figuratively. I would say to novice puppy pickers- look at the line of the backs of the parents and grandparents. Do some kind of a puppy test for nerve. Ask about hip and elbow status and history of genetic disorders in the bloodline. After you've got the puppy, don't let him be exposed to other dogs or anywhere other dogs have been until fully vaccinated. Train your puppy and raise him right. These are not oridinary dogs.


----------



## Sunsilver

Nurse Bishop said:


> My American bred for generations WGSL, straight backed ranch dog who brings me whatever horse I point at, who has the courage to take on a bear or a sounder of wild hogs, who stands for gunfire, who knew 30 commands by age 2, she is just a no good useless WGSL with a bitch stripe. I guess I'll have to get a Mal next time. And by the way, this thread has become like Aella's wolf pit.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqJHqXERslM


As I stated, I like your dog, N.B. I also have a dog that is a mix of GSL and [gasp!] American SL. She is the one who sleeps just inside my front door at night, guarding the house. I am unsure if she'd bite for real, but the way she barks at strangers who come into my house would be plenty enough to scare off a burglar! Although her nerves weren't quite good enough to make her a good candidate for IPO, they were enough to allow her to take stick hits while on the sleeve, and not back down. The difference between here and my WL girl is she was becoming anxious and being pushed into defense, while Eska's tail is wagging when she'd doing protection.

LOL at the video - when I turned the sound on, my working line girl came running into the room, trying to find the dogs that were barking and growling! When she didn't see any in the room she ran to the door and checked the back yard! :grin2:


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## Nurse Bishop

I really like that kind of dog


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## GypsyGhost

Nurse Bishop said:


> You can look at titiles and know they were titled in something. That means the parents had to be solid and trainable. Maybe not in bitesports, but something. Of course not every breeding crossing two great dogs or any animals for that matter turns out great in the crap shoot of genetics. The great racehorse stallion Secretariat was a flop at the stud.
> 
> I was a and am a total novice to GSDs. My whippet had died and I was lonesome for a dog and I wanted a real dog this time. Not that soft and gentle sighthounds are not real dogs, but I wanted a dog that was harder, intelligent, trainable and protective. I liked the look of Greman Shepherds, their strength and power, their beauty and alert look. So on the internet I found a breeder of GSDs that was somewhere in Central Texas. I did not ask where they WL or SL, I didn't know what that was. I went over there and Inga, 5 weeks old at the time, climbed into my lap three times. She picked me. That how I pick animals that are pets, like it's just meant to be. And it WAS meant to be. I took her home when she was old enough and she passed the vacuum cleaner test. yes, the vacuum cleaner test! Afraid of the vacuum? Not at all. hahahaha. Follow me into the surf and swim in the ocean at a few months old? She did that too. Come walking around a curve in the road just as neighboring ranchers opened up on the firing range? She just stood there. I said Hey look shes not even scared. They laughed and said thats because she is a police dog (some people refer to GSDs as police dogs, Inga is not and was not bred from police dogs). A handful to train, I had to teach myself to train and used every toy in the box. She is strong willed, not like any sighthound I have ever known. How did this happen? A dog bred fro WGSL- maybe I just got lucky.
> 
> I am certainly not qualified to tell people how to breed GDSs or select a GSD puppy. I just saw an alarming video of the horrible way some german show dogs in 2007 walked. I did not even watch the whole thing because I could not bear to watch. Oh, was there a protection test too? Thank god I didn't see it. Apparently, some people are breeding the roach back out.
> 
> We all agree here, that the GSD as a breed is going downhill, literally and figuratively. I would say to novice puppy pickers- look at the line of the backs of the parents and grandparents. Do some kind of a puppy test for nerve. Ask about hip and elbow status and history of genetic disorders in the bloodline. After you've got the puppy, don't let him be exposed to other dogs or anywhere other dogs have been until fully vaccinated. Train your puppy and raise him right. These are not oridinary dogs.


I mean absolutely no disrespect with this, but you are missing the point about titles. Nervy dogs can still be titled. A title does not definitively tell you that a dog is breedworthy. It is just a small part of the puzzle. Breeders need to look at their dogs with a critical eye, and many are not able to do that. And buyers need to be less impressed by titles alone and dig deeper. I personally learned that one the hard way.

You believe Inga to be a very solid dog, and that is wonderful. But she is not necessarily that way because of a few titles in her pedigree. I don’t know what her pedigree looks like. Hopefully her breeder knew what they were doing and Inga’s siblings are solid like she is.


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## huntergreen

Sunsilver,. That is what I have, gsl and asl. Exactly what I wanted. 5 months old and so far he is perfect.


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## Sunsilver

Watch the videos from the Sieger show, and they will convince you of how little titles really mean. ALL those dogs must be titled in IPO before they can even enter the show. Yet, from the way some of them react in the courage test, you'd wonder how they managed to title. 

For those of you who are unfamiliar with IPO, even the IPO1 protection routine is more demanding than the Sieger show test. Even so, a lot of dogs fail:

From an article written by Koos Hassing (Tiekerhook Kennel) in 2010:



> Friday evening, after the courage test at the “Hauptzuchtschau” in Ulm was over I got an alarmed phone call from a sport friend who was there and told me that many of the SchH 2 and even more of the SchH 3 dogs did not pass protection. Sunday evening I calculated that 63 males and 49 females failed. Furthermore, we are talking about exclusively KKL 1 dogs here who had received the rating of “TSB pronounced” in their ZtP/Körung. I doubt that the number of failures had ever been that high. My information showed that protection may have been judged marginally harder but not significantly harder than in years past. I was even told that had the helper work been consistent for all the dogs there would have been even more failures.
> 
> There were glaring differences between dogs from performance lines and those from show lines. OK, that may not be such a big deal, but it clearly accentuates how big the differences are.
> 
> Only a few years ago I myself was a witness to the way protection was handled at the “Hauptzuchtschau”.
> I came to the conclusion that some assessments were at the very bottom of the rating “pronounced”, some even below. Dogs who came off the sleeve during the attack on handler still got a rating high enough to remain in the competition. In individual cases apparently the manner in which the dogs prevented the attack (energetic gripping is desired) was of secondary importance. Obviously some things had improved somewhat, but it has to be said. It appears as if the top people in the SV, who got there due to political circumstance, chose this result, and everyone seems OK with that. One would think based on that that the general public is also satisfied with the result! Keep going that way.
> 
> In my opinion, this can never be the right solution. The movement in this direction already became apparent years ago. But it is exactly like judging one’s own affairs, it is rejected in society and politically and no significant improvement can be brought about.


https://www.prlog.org/10507451-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-one.html


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## carmspack

a video that I have posted a few times over the years in different threads

I did post in on another thread currently running - weak hind leg -- 

it is very relevant here . The SV knows what it is doing . "Bad" dogs keep disapperaing
to foreing buyers who want to jump onto the band wagon . The GSD investment .

it is in German , but not difficult to understand


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## Rana

I will be the first to admit - I am not a GSD breeder - just love them. Currently with my third GSD and first WL male, my first 2 were WGSL, back when they were not as extreme as shown in the video and the topic of discussion here. Did protection work with both of them and they were good dogs. Then I got my current dog and was totally amazed at the difference between him and my 2 previous ones. Might as well be a different breed - body structure, physical and mental strength, energy level, environmentally completely sound. Not saying he is like that because he is WL, but I believe it does have a role to play. We train with a local IPO club and I belong to a small PSA club and currently training for PSA - we even have some cops with their dogs - Malis, WL Rotties, Pitts - so it is a good comparison. Based on my limited experience - and talking to cops who tell me that GSDs are making a resurgence - I am not so down on GSDs. The good ones (all WLs I am afraid), can go toe to toe with the other breeds and even excel - I am witness to it. I guess, you have to look for them - the pedigrees and lines are just great indicators of what the dog can be but what it really is will be dependent on the dog at the end of your leash and how much time you are willing to put in once they show their true potential.

Here is my flat backed male going full steam after the ball after a strenous obedience and bite session in the Florida heat and humidity. Happy as a lark.

Cheers!


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## carmspack

nice , very nice -- 
yes they may as well be a separate breed . I have said this so many times - iceberg breeder thread - 
in more than one way .
even the genetics -- which solidfied an identifiable physical type . 
All that has been done would satisfy the requirements to register a new breed .


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## wolfy dog

Rana said:


> I will be the first to admit - I am not a GSD breeder - just love them. Currently with my third GSD and first WL male, my first 2 were WGSL, back when they were not as extreme as shown in the video and the topic of discussion here. Did protection work with both of them and they were good dogs. Then I got my current dog and was totally amazed at the difference between him and my 2 previous ones. Might as well be a different breed - body structure, physical and mental strength, energy level, environmentally completely sound. Not saying he is like that because he is WL, but I believe it does have a role to play. We train with a local IPO club and I belong to a small PSA club and currently training for PSA - we even have some cops with their dogs - Malis, WL Rotties, Pitts - so it is a good comparison. Based on my limited experience - and talking to cops who tell me that GSDs are making a resurgence - I am not so down on GSDs. The good ones (all WLs I am afraid), can go toe to toe with the other breeds and even excel - I am witness to it. I guess, you have to look for them - the pedigrees and lines are just great indicators of what the dog can be but what it really is will be dependent on the dog at the end of your leash and how much time you are willing to put in once they show their true potential.
> 
> Here is my flat backed male going full steam after the ball after a strenous obedience and bite session in the Florida heat and humidity. Happy as a lark.
> 
> Cheers!


Great post. It also describes my dogs. They are just above the average dog IMO. It took me decades to make the leap to a good GSD. GSDs have always been my nr. 1 breed so when my first dog, a Bouvier X died, shortly after we moved to the US in the 80's, I was going for a GSD. Up to this time I had always known the dogs from EU.
I thought I was going to get a good dog due to my research about the champion lines but little did I know about the issues in this breed in the US or about the show line vs working line differences. So I thought finding a breeder with show champions would get me good pup. I asked the breeder (in Tri Cities, WA) about these long legs from her adult dogs and she said that this was so desired and they were needed for conformation and movement. Took the pup home and when on a walk, someone asked if the pup had an accident because "she was walking funny". I knew he was right but I was in denial. The pup refused to eat and got weaker and weaker. She even fell over in the car. The breeder blamed it on my young children, who, by the way, were dog savvy and well behaved and told me to force feed her, even if it meant making pancakes for her, which she did for her own dogs, incl. force-feeding . My vet couldn't find anything physically wrong with her and admitted her for observation and put her on steroids to get her to eat. That worked so I took her home but she would only eat on steroids and locked up in a crate. After the steroids stopped she went back to her old refusals to eat. I had a young family with kids and decided that I just couldn't do this anymore and the vet took her in and found a home where they were going to do whatever was needed to get her 'normal'. Honestly, I was relieved and never looked back. Not the best attitude at that time, I know, but the dog had wore me out as a young mom. That was my first GSD and so it took me decades to find my current dogs and having the guts to try again after having had fosters, mutts and Whippets without any issues. But the GSD was still on my bucket list. So in all these years I have learned a lot and also got certified as a trainer for pet dogs. 
Disclaimer: I am not bashing show lines here, just telling me my experiences.


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## Aly

carmspack said:


> nice , very nice --
> yes they may as well be a separate breed . I have said this so many times - iceberg breeder thread -
> in more than one way .
> even the genetics -- which solidfied an identifiable physical type .
> All that has been done would satisfy the requirements to register a new breed .


I'm struck by the gene mapping too, Carmen, and have a serious question: Is this the direction that you think some (presumably WL folks) will pursue? Assembling whatever's necessary to register these dogs as a new breed? More importantly, I suppose, do you think that this is the direction that some should pursue?

Aly


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## kimbale

Ugh, as someone who adores a nice West German Showline, this thread makes me sad. And it's because I totally agree with a lot of what is being said here. To me, a nice WGSL dog is one that isn't over-angulated and doesn't walk like it has to pee. I'm active in SV showing and know some of the top WGSL breeders and judges, and frankly I believe that the conformation judges are killing these lines. One of the reasons that I love these dogs is because WGSLs used to not have that over-angulation that has become so prevalent in American Lines. However, more and more, the more angulated dogs are winning and it's driving me up a wall. 

There are a few WGSL breeders out there who are very focused on breeding the whole dog, including breeders who focus a lot on working ability. But those breeders don't make it very far in the big shows because, frankly, the VA dogs are being chosen based on looks rather than the whole dog. I've seen amazing WGSL dogs with super drive perform awesome in the courage test, and those dogs get low ranked and out-ranked by dogs they could work circles around (even dogs who pulled up or hesitated in the IPO ring.)

I also saw Zamp mentioned here and, yes, those breeders who rely on his lines won't say it, but he has been known to throw problematic hips and soft hocks. I stay away from his lines as well as some of the other big VA dogs. Honestly, my favorite VA dog (and the grandfather of my boy Wolf) is Furbo degli Achei. Now, even he is more angulated than I would like, but his progeny are sound, good hips, good structure, and he doesn't seem to pass down that over-angulation to his pups. Plus, he passes down good work ability.

So, yes, from someone who is on the inside I can confirm that the judges in the big shows are judging heavily based on looks. I've seen some tremendous working WGSL dogs with good structure, and they always get ranked low. It's frustrating.

So, for my dogs, I go to the breeders who are breeding for the whole dog and I've been happy with my dogs. Wolf here has nice stricture (he's a year and a half), isn't over-angulated, and has great work ethic. We are actually training in detection under a narcotics K9 handler who adores Wolf.

But, yes, overall the WGSLs are being ruined and it hurts to watch.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Aly said:


> I'm struck by the gene mapping too, Carmen, and have a serious question: Is this the direction that you think some (presumably WL folks) will pursue? Assembling whatever's necessary to register these dogs as a new breed? More importantly, I suppose, do you think that this is the direction that some should pursue?
> 
> Aly



Registries use DNA to identify parentage not breed. 
The SV will never allow it to happen. People would be better off trying to push for varieties within the breed. (and that probably won't happen either)


----------



## Rana

I will add some more of my perspective on the WL GSD (based on my own dog) - yes, he does have an OFF switch, BUT (in ALL CAPS in case you did not notice), in order for this OFF switch to be effective he needs to be worked hard both physically and mentally. He will be calmly waiting or napping but will be instantly ON the minute I am up - ready to go. If you are NOT willing to work this type of dog PLEASE do not get one as BOTH of you will be miserable and it is not fair to either one of you.

One last comment and I will shut up - last Friday when we were training with the IPO club a local WGSL GSD breeder was also there to work his dog, so he deserves due credit for that. His dog was not bad but I hate to sound arrogant nowhere near the WL GSDs, Malis, WL Rottie (smaller and faster than the huge ones one might be familiar with), and Pits (these Pits are not your typical American lines with the huge dish shaped heads and bulky bodies - they are medium size, wiry and all muscle, with the speed and aggression level that is impressive). As I was walking across with my dog right after the gun shot test and PSA type bitework he came up to me and commented on his calm nerves during the test (was on a long down throughout the gun test and barked once), the intensity of his bitework and his muscles and physical structure - and as you can see from his picture he looks nothing like a SL. This gives me hope that SL breeders are noticing this stark difference and hopefully will be working towards narrowing this huge chasm that exists today.


----------



## carmspack

Aly said:


> I'm struck by the gene mapping too, Carmen, and have a serious question: Is this the direction that you think some (presumably WL folks) will pursue? Assembling whatever's necessary to register these dogs as a new breed? More importantly, I suppose, do you think that this is the direction that some should pursue?
> 
> Aly


this is an excellent question -I hope I understand it properly .
I will do my best to give you an answer - an honest answer , and
quite possibly a complicated answer to a complicated question.

the SV "show lines" which go back to a period in time to a particular
stud and two particular characters , the two Martin brothers , of Wienerau and
Arminius , gripped the wheel and drove the new , their controlled version, of the breed down the road.
So busy looking to see what they left behind in the dust , that they failed to look forward to the cliff they were heading for taking a merry bunch along for the ride to the bottom,
too full of lol Linda's favourite , "the kool-aide" to know what just happened .
Unfortunately "the breed" went with them and is in shambles . 

At that historic time the breed began a deliberate separation - a volunteer closing of the
"stud book"
Want to study dynamics in gene selection then take a few days and read ' -- U of T prof
Margaret Derry Bred for Perfection - very readable , very thought provokinghttps://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/content/bred-perfection p all about human influence , choices and consequences .

the working line itself is changing . Not to a good place either.

there are 3 distinct groups which are breeds unto themselves . American Showlines
have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's.
At that time you had the beginnings of a dedicated "American" direction , but the dogs
were still close to German dogs .
Look at Covy Tucker Hill's Angeqlique Tucker Hill's Angelique -- for goodness sake - you had Valet Busecker Schloss , with his Arno sire in the second generation.
Valet is a good dog to find in working lines.

Angelique would have been and did contgribute with progeny within the time period I mentioned - the mid 70's.

At the same time YOU had Lance of Fran Jo who was not a bad dog at all , with his
Troll Richterback in his second generation.

the problem was selection. Inbreeding . The desire to be part of the winner's club .

You start line and inbreeding on these dogs , WGSL's and ASL's and you have a high concentration of "Nestor" -- which brings in TEMPERAMENTAL problems.

the working lines are in the same boat - although not as dense a concentration - because this dog "Nestor" and his origins brought in speed and sharpness 

In the working lines you have to look for the balance - look for the inclusion of the three other groups. The Lierberg,s bring in a stabilizing group as does Marko Cellerland.

should the working lines create their own breed -- no , not in that respect .

I don't think it is necessary . I hope they remain or return to the essence of the breed which is not to be a specialized sporting , trilaing dog . \
The essence of the breed and usefulness of the breed is utility , versatility .

That requires that all the historical , core groups , right in the von Stephanitz book, that
were stitched together be utilized .

iif I fell short of giving an answer - try me again . I'm game.

is ver


----------



## mspiker03

kimbale said:


> Honestly, my favorite VA dog (and the grandfather of my boy Wolf) is Furbo degli Achei. Now, even he is more angulated than I would like, but his progeny are sound, good hips, good structure, and he doesn't seem to pass down that over-angulation to his pups. Plus, he passes down good work ability.


Mine is a Furbo Great Grandson. He went OFA Excellent. And I am beyond pleased with his work ability and temperament. 

Lucky us


----------



## carmspack

kimbale - post

quote " more, the more angulated dogs are winning and it's driving me up a wall. "

up the wall - lol -- there was a time that the GSD had the physicality and the BOLDNESS (a missing modern trait in ALL groups) to scale a wall, climb a ladder , scale 8 to 10 and higher vertical walls . 
how's this ? Tall enough 




I participated in North America's first French Ring Campagne trials . My dog Kilo had to do the palisade which enclosed him , so no room to get a running jump , and scale an 8 foot vertical wall. Done with ease.

I am sorry . I can't imagine any of the VA's and V's WGSLs doing this . The shoulder can't open, the back , spine can't flex, and the rear can't power up. 

kimbale 
"There are a few WGSL breeders out there who are very focused on breeding the whole dog, including breeders who focus a lot on working ability. But those breeders don't make it very far in the big shows because, frankly, the VA dogs are being chosen based on looks rather than the whole dog. I've seen amazing WGSL dogs with super drive perform awesome in the courage test, and those dogs get low ranked and out-ranked by dogs they could work circles around (even dogs who pulled up or hesitated in the IPO ring.)

I hope that they continue with intelligent decisions and ethics . They won't be rewarded by the SV , or it's representatives. They won't be embraced and welcomed by their local breeders and competitors .
Not a "club" member , you're not eating at this table. 
People will deny . I have seen cheating that crosses the line of competitive advantage . That lack of morals and
need to win , for me, puts the entire kennel name into question.
don't ask. 
They will be the outliers. 

kimbale 
"I also saw Zamp mentioned here and, yes, those breeders who rely on his lines won't say it, but he has been known to throw problematic hips and soft hocks. "

never mind Zamp - how about Uran Wildsteiger Land -- nice dog - bred to death (figuratively - wll maybe literally too lol ) big numbers -- to the limits allowed numbers - and then you go through the SV das schaferhund magazin you will see public statistics on Uran's hip production . Horrible -- not strong enough .
Large number of the most severe "schwere" that is seriously bad , ratings.

when do you call and end to something.

this dog appears multiple times in a pedigree - so line breeding --- .

on a happier note the magazin(e) that I randomly chose was from 2008 and the feature breeder/ kennel interview was the mr and mrs Kemmer , breeders of noteworthy KARTHAGO (working) kennels.
Refreshing to see so many nice dogs.

Kimbale -- good luck with your WOLF -- nice example of what can and should be .


----------



## carmspack

Whiteshepherds said:


> Registries use DNA to identify parentage not breed.
> The SV will never allow it to happen. People would be better off trying to push for varieties within the breed. (and that probably won't happen either)


registries use nDNA - nuclear dna , the life giving xx / xy from sire and dam.

gene mapping -- traces ancestry through mtDNA - mitochondrial dna tracked from the female line -- mitochondria passed from mother to daughter , mother to son .
Son has his mothers mtDNA but can not pass it on . His progeny will always have the
mtDNA of the female he was bred to.

as to the comment on the SV not allowing "it" , meaning the renaming of a split group - well this is not correct --- 
The SV started action and wanted the American show line to be recognized under a different breed name. 
this was hotly contested by the ASL because there is a whole lot of benefit to ridie on the brand-name GSD.

they won eventually but the SV wanted them gone.

suggestion - the ASL "the Lance dog"
the WGSL "the Canto" dog


----------



## Sabis mom

@carmspack, Carmen you said 

_up the wall - lol -- there was a time that the GSD had the physicality and the BOLDNESS (a missing modern trait in ALL groups) to scale a wall, climb a ladder , scale 8 to 10 and higher vertical walls . 
how's this ? Tall enough _

This was the reason that Bud had to be kept on a running line inside the yard when I could not watch him, lol.

A standard six foot fence did not even slow him down. Until he was well past 10 years old I needed to watch him like a hawk. More then once I ventured outside the yard to speak to someone only to find him suddenly landing beside me. His mother was a notorious climber and his grandsire Gabor died as a result of scaling the side of his run and getting onto a road. 

While I appreciate the athleticism, the breed should come with a warning.


As to splitting the breed I believe that all of the lines may be possessed of specific traits and like a puzzle need to be put back together to reveal the true picture. If the various factions cannot agree then perhaps a split would be the way to go. I think a lot of the WL breeders may be just as guilty of their own "crimes" breeding dogs that are so specialized for sport that they have lost any ability to be the all around utility companions that they were intended to be.


----------



## carmspack

Rana said:


> I will add some more of my perspective on the WL GSD (based on my own dog) - yes, he does have an OFF switch, BUT (in ALL CAPS in case you did not notice), in order for this OFF switch to be effective he needs to be worked hard both physically and mentally. He will be calmly waiting or napping but will be instantly ON the minute I am up - ready to go. If you are NOT willing to work this type of dog PLEASE do not get one as BOTH of you will be miserable and it is not fair to either one of you.
> 
> One last comment and I will shut up - last Friday when we were training with the IPO club a local WGSL GSD breeder was also there to work his dog, so he deserves due credit for that. His dog was not bad but I hate to sound arrogant nowhere near the WL GSDs, Malis, WL Rottie (smaller and faster than the huge ones one might be familiar with), and Pits (these Pits are not your typical American lines with the huge dish shaped heads and bulky bodies - they are medium size, wiry and all muscle, with the speed and aggression level that is impressive). As I was walking across with my dog right after the gun shot test and PSA type bitework he came up to me and commented on his calm nerves during the test (was on a long down throughout the gun test and barked once), the intensity of his bitework and his muscles and physical structure - and as you can see from his picture he looks nothing like a SL. This gives me hope that SL breeders are noticing this stark difference and hopefully will be working towards narrowing this huge chasm that exists today.


rana I like your posts 
just one thing, not from this one but your previous one --- nice dog -- but the terminology for the topline - the back should not be called a flat back --- the back is 
dorrect and in order to be correct it has to have a well defined strong neck , and a well defined , wither which flows harmoniously into a strong back and that into the croup or
pelvis .

when you say flat back there are a lot of owners with honest to goodnes flat backs with no angulation and no withers and maybe straight fronts lacking layback of the shoulder and think that this is correct. It isn't . 

your dog in that extension shows the muscle over the wither and shoulder and he shows
beaufiful flex and extension of his hock. See too many with fixed hock which won't allow for maximum push off . so nice dog .

to this post - the importance of the pff switch , beyond not getting on your nerves , is that in real work - tending sheep, guide, therapy / assistance , guard , law enforcement is that there are frequent and sometimes long periods of inactivity . But the dog can't check out. He needs to be calm yet watchful while the sheep peacefully graze.
He can't exhaust his adrenals , anxiously waiting or leaking with activity to instigate a reason to act . 

I think this is an area that needs to be addressed by the "working" group (sporting)
because it is necesary in real work life.

your comments about the Sl dog that came out to your club -- good on you - I too recognize and appreciate a good dog no matter where it comes from.
Some of you might not think so - but it is a fact.
My french ring trainer friend has had a few young dogs from a local wgsl breeder , on contract to get all the basics of puppy hood , basic manners , basic obedience and later wehn mature enough for advanced training. I trust him .
I think the kennel is the same breeder of that beautiful sound and stable and eye catching correct wgsl line pup that Linda Shaw and I saw at one of the last shows we
attended . The rest of the story --- the dog in the conformation line up was dead last.
they are not a minor or anonymous kennel - they are chaning directions and no good
deed goes unpunished.
the pressure is on.


----------



## carmspack

warm and fuzzy , wichful thinking , a re--unification I do not think is posible , nor do I think there is a benefit to be had .
there has been a widening gap and specialization , for 50 years and maybe plus some.

the SV does not want it . 

they have done everything in their might to create and keep the gap.

first step ? take those WGSL's and submit them to the same level of expectation that the BSP type trial
dogs have to work by .

not going to happen . Evidence --- even more erosion of the IPO tests . why bother . they are adapting the tests to the ability of the dog , not changing the dog to meet the trials.

so - nonsense.

another reason it is not a good idea . The GSD has lost a lot of ground in being the working dog of choice.
Rana said there is a resurgence -- yes, there are "underground" groups of breeders that don't concern themselves with scores and podiums -- they quietly go about their business selecting for balande and utility and versatility and are desired by working allocations and scoffed at by trial title junkies and show line people.

if there were a required reunification then the whole breed would be set back decades and decades to get back to where we are now -- and that is a position that does not need to go one step back but two steps forward.

we are at a critical time -- we can loose the whole thing.

do you see how dispirited some excellent breeders are - they think it is past -- 

plus the nerve base and genetic narrowing of two groups will not support the genetic material that they will be joined with -- and the nerve base --- 
you will adopt poor to "horrifying" conformation , 

everything in that suggestion is counter productive to what needs to be done


----------



## Whiteshepherds

carmspack said:


> as to the comment on the SV not allowing "it" , meaning the renaming of a split group - well this is not correct --- The SV started action and wanted the American show line to be recognized under a different breed name. this was hotly contested by the ASL because there is a whole lot of benefit to ridie on the brand-name GSD.
> they won eventually but the SV wanted them gone.


I was under the impression that your comment about meeting requirements to register a new breed in a previous post was referring to dogs in the SV and registries associated with the FCI. (the idea that the WGSL's and WL are so different they should be different breeds)

There is a difference between the SV trying to impose its will on dogs registered with the AKC, dogs they have no jurisdiction over, and people trying to get the SV to agree to keep part of the breed and relinquish control of the other half so it can become a new breed.(within FCI registries) Huge difference, and I don't see it ever happening.

I have no recollection of a vote ever being taken by the GSDCA membership that could have resulted in the ASL's being removed from the AKC GSD breed. Can't even imagine how that could be possible. Can you please elaborate? When did this take place?


----------



## Sunsilver

If you want to know why Scorpio was such a problem with the genes he carried, just go to this link, and under 'Linebreeding' click to see the 7 generation line breeding. 

You think the German show lines are inbred?? You ain't seen NOTHING!! :surprise::surprise::surprise::surprise:

Scorpio of Shiloh Gardens

There's a lesson in applied genetics to be learned right there! Holy mackerel - how could this EVER come to pass in the 20th Century, when the dangers of too much inbreeding are clearly established??? I guess they thought they could still get away with it because most of the line breeding is 5 or more generations back, which is considered acceptable by most breeders.

Edited to add: if you painted Scorpio black and red, he'd pass for a German show line, a nice one without a lot of exaggeration!


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## Sabis mom

carmspack said:


> warm and fuzzy , wichful thinking , a re--unification I do not think is posible , nor do I think there is a benefit to be had .
> there has been a widening gap and specialization , for 50 years and maybe plus some.
> 
> the SV does not want it .
> 
> they have done everything in their might to create and keep the gap.
> 
> first step ? take those WGSL's and submit them to the same level of expectation that the BSP type trial
> dogs have to work by .
> 
> not going to happen . Evidence --- even more erosion of the IPO tests . why bother . they are adapting the tests to the ability of the dog , not changing the dog to meet the trials.
> 
> so - nonsense.
> 
> another reason it is not a good idea . The GSD has lost a lot of ground in being the working dog of choice.
> Rana said there is a resurgence -- yes, there are "underground" groups of breeders that don't concern themselves with scores and podiums -- they quietly go about their business selecting for balande and utility and versatility and are desired by working allocations and scoffed at by trial title junkies and show line people.
> 
> if there were a required reunification then the whole breed would be set back decades and decades to get back to where we are now -- and that is a position that does not need to go one step back but two steps forward.
> 
> we are at a critical time -- we can loose the whole thing.
> 
> do you see how dispirited some excellent breeders are - they think it is past --
> 
> plus the nerve base and genetic narrowing of two groups will not support the genetic material that they will be joined with -- and the nerve base ---
> you will adopt poor to "horrifying" conformation ,
> 
> everything in that suggestion is counter productive to what needs to be done



I meant no offense, I simply dislike that these splits were allowed to happen. 

So in your opinion the only real way forward from here is to actually split the breed into a show/work type thing and preserve from here? All I as an owner want to see is a return to the focus on the TRUE all around dog that can do anything, go anywhere and is healthy and stable. I want to see the dogs that play with the kids, help with the livestock, defend the property. I want to see breeders focusing on stable temperaments, health and longevity instead of looks and color. I want a return of the dogs I grew up with. 

I am saddened that dogs such as the ones in the first video are anyone's ideal of any breed.


----------



## Nigel

Nurse Bishop said:


> You can look at titiles and know they were titled in something. That means the parents had to be solid and trainable. Maybe not in bitesports, but something. Of course not every breeding crossing two great dogs or any animals for that matter turns out great in the crap shoot of genetics. The great racehorse stallion Secretariat was a flop at the stud.
> 
> I was a and am a total novice to GSDs. My whippet had died and I was lonesome for a dog and I wanted a real dog this time. Not that soft and gentle sighthounds are not real dogs, but I wanted a dog that was harder, intelligent, trainable and protective. I liked the look of Greman Shepherds, their strength and power, their beauty and alert look. So on the internet I found a breeder of GSDs that was somewhere in Central Texas. I did not ask where they WL or SL, I didn't know what that was. I went over there and Inga, 5 weeks old at the time, climbed into my lap three times. She picked me. That how I pick animals that are pets, like it's just meant to be. And it WAS meant to be. I took her home when she was old enough and she passed the vacuum cleaner test. yes, the vacuum cleaner test! Afraid of the vacuum? Not at all. hahahaha. Follow me into the surf and swim in the ocean at a few months old? She did that too. Come walking around a curve in the road just as neighboring ranchers opened up on the firing range? She just stood there. I said Hey look shes not even scared. They laughed and said thats because she is a police dog (some people refer to GSDs as police dogs, Inga is not and was not bred from police dogs). A handful to train, I had to teach myself to train and used every toy in the box. She is strong willed, not like any sighthound I have ever known. How did this happen? A dog bred fro WGSL- maybe I just got lucky.
> 
> I am certainly not qualified to tell people how to breed GDSs or select a GSD puppy. I just saw an alarming video of the horrible way some german show dogs in 2007 walked. I did not even watch the whole thing because I could not bear to watch. Oh, was there a protection test too? Thank god I didn't see it. Apparently, some people are breeding the roach back out.
> 
> We all agree here, that the GSD as a breed is going downhill, literally and figuratively. I would say to novice puppy pickers- look at the line of the backs of the parents and grandparents. Do some kind of a puppy test for nerve. Ask about hip and elbow status and history of genetic disorders in the bloodline. After you've got the puppy, don't let him be exposed to other dogs or anywhere other dogs have been until fully vaccinated. Train your puppy and raise him right. These are not oridinary dogs.


By all accounts it sounds like Inga is a great dog and a perfect match for you so dont take the "in general" talk about the breed personally. Besides, some of us have bybs of haphazard breeding, the true scourge of the breed, lol!! 

In all seriousness I like these threads as there can be a lot of useful information. For sure I'm getting a better understanding of movement, but structure still confuses me some. It is sad hearing about the decline and the lowering of expectations once again, sounds like a race to the bottom.


----------



## carmspack

Sabis mom said:


> I meant no offense, I simply dislike that these splits were allowed to happen.
> 
> So in your opinion the only real way forward from here is to actually split the breed into a show/work type thing and preserve from here? All I as an owner want to see is a return to the focus on the TRUE all around dog that can do anything, go anywhere and is healthy and stable. I want to see the dogs that play with the kids, help with the livestock, defend the property. I want to see breeders focusing on stable temperaments, health and longevity instead of looks and color. I want a return of the dogs I grew up with.
> 
> I am saddened that dogs such as the ones in the first video are anyone's ideal of any breed.


the splits are not about to happen -- lol - they happened 50 years ago and continue to do so 

nothing needs to be done --- NO ACTION REQUIRED 

you want to see breeders focus on sound stable healthy long lived ----- I make that a bolded I , want to see buyers focus on that .

you could provide a dog capable of getting a chauffeur's licence , do the kid's math homework and you will be turned down because , well , the dog isn't black and tan.


----------



## Rana

Carmen,

Thanks for your clarification of "straight vs correct" back. I have been lurking on this forum long to have a lot of respect for you, your comments, and what you are doing to preserve this wonderful breed.

Agree with your comments on the "off" switch as well. We will driving 10-11 hours on our way to GA and Zeus (my dog) will have no issues napping most of the day so long as the AC is set at COLD..so, yes he can wait patiently most of the times but then he needs to be worked hard.


----------



## cliffson1

kimbale said:


> Ugh, as someone who adores a nice West German Showline, this thread makes me sad. And it's because I totally agree with a lot of what is being said here. To me, a nice WGSL dog is one that isn't over-angulated and doesn't walk like it has to pee. I'm active in SV showing and know some of the top WGSL breeders and judges, and frankly I believe that the conformation judges are killing these lines. One of the reasons that I love these dogs is because WGSLs used to not have that over-angulation that has become so prevalent in American Lines. However, more and more, the more angulated dogs are winning and it's driving me up a wall.
> 
> There are a few WGSL breeders out there who are very focused on breeding the whole dog, including breeders who focus a lot on working ability. But those breeders don't make it very far in the big shows because, frankly, the VA dogs are being chosen based on looks rather than the whole dog. I've seen amazing WGSL dogs with super drive perform awesome in the courage test, and those dogs get low ranked and out-ranked by dogs they could work circles around (even dogs who pulled up or hesitated in the IPO ring.)
> 
> I also saw Zamp mentioned here and, yes, those breeders who rely on his lines won't say it, but he has been known to throw problematic hips and soft hocks. I stay away from his lines as well as some of the other big VA dogs. Honestly, my favorite VA dog (and the grandfather of my boy Wolf) is Furbo degli Achei. Now, even he is more angulated than I would like, but his progeny are sound, good hips, good structure, and he doesn't seem to pass down that over-angulation to his pups. Plus, he passes down good work ability.
> 
> So, yes, from someone who is on the inside I can confirm that the judges in the big shows are judging heavily based on looks. I've seen some tremendous working WGSL dogs with good structure, and they always get ranked low. It's frustrating.
> 
> So, for my dogs, I go to the breeders who are breeding for the whole dog and I've been happy with my dogs. Wolf here has nice stricture (he's a year and a half), isn't over-angulated, and has great work ethic. We are actually training in detection under a narcotics K9 handler who adores Wolf.
> 
> But, yes, overall the WGSLs are being ruined and it hurts to watch.


Thank you for a post that is objective, knowledgeable, and coming from a person that not only owns WGSL dogs, but understands the insides from participating and contact. To me your post has much validation based on actual experiences as opposed to false perceptions fueled by likes and wished. People like you; because of your objectivity and truthfulness, are the hope for the breed and SL (as part of the breed) for the future.


----------



## Aly

Whiteshepherds said:


> Registries use DNA to identify parentage not breed.
> The SV will never allow it to happen. People would be better off trying to push for varieties within the breed. (and that probably won't happen either)


Yes, I understand how registries work, politically and otherwise; that wasn't the basis of my question. In addition to her other comments, Carmen's mention of gene mapping put me in mind of _this study_ demonstrating variance in the genetic underpinnings, so to say, of show, working, and mixed lines: 

https://www.rsv2000.de/en/news/special-articels/breeding/genetische-differenzierung-des-dsh.html

Aly


----------



## Aly

carmspack said:


> this is an excellent question -I hope I understand it properly .
> I will do my best to give you an answer - an honest answer , and
> quite possibly a complicated answer to a complicated question.


Yes, Carmen, you did. Thank you for taking the time to map out a complicated answer --- with suggested reading materials! FWIW, Hopkins press has the Derry book for almost half the cost that Amazon does; can't wait for it to arrive.




carmspack said:


> At that historic time the breed began a deliberate separation - a volunteer closing of the "stud book"


Okay, when you reference closing of the "stud book" do you mean SV show lines only or something else? Do you know what the rationale was for deciding to close the stud book? Dollars again or something else?



carmspack said:


> the working line itself is changing . Not to a good place either. there are 3 distinct groups which are breeds unto themselves . American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's.


I'm not sure that I understand what you mean when you say, "American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's." Do you mean that ASL breeders were breeding, _exclusively_, to other ASLs? If so, do you think that that was an effort to fix type, as it were? And, if so, how well did they think that 'type' squared with GSLs or WLs? Frankly, to my eye, contemporary ASLs don't. All three look quite different, identifiably GSDs, but still quite different. I assume that they also must have done fairly early on. Is that correct?



carmspack said:


> ...the problem was selection. Inbreeding . The desire to be part of the winner's club .


Yes, a similar thing happened/is happening with IWs and very likely other breeds, as well, given the undue (IMO) emphasis on breeding to a 'winner' and/or backmassing on same. With IWs, the problem is further magnified by the fact that the available gene pool (viz., population of IWs worldwide) is severely limited to begin with. 




carmspack said:


> should the working lines create their own breed -- no , not in that respect .
> 
> I don't think it is necessary . I hope they remain or return to the essence of the breed which is not to be a specialized sporting , trilaing dog . \
> The essence of the breed and usefulness of the breed is utility , versatility .
> 
> That requires that all the historical , core groups , right in the von Stephanitz book, that were stitched together be utilized .


Okay, so now I'm going to assume the role of Devil's Advocate, with just a _touch _of personal interest. This is a fascinating and important (IMO) discussion to read, think about and participate in, but it's at a different level of analysis (What's Best for the _Breed_) than I suspect that many owners exist. Or, perhaps, even want to exist. 

At a different, more individual level, the question becomes "How does all that history and politics map onto and shape my choices as a GSD owner?" I grew up with GSDs, love the breed dearly, but far too many of the dogs I see now literally hurt my heart. Do not misunderstand, this is not a plea for a Golden/Lab in a GSD suit; far from it. But, if a critical aspect of the breed's character is its _versatility _and I believe that it is, then it should be suitable for an active home. Not limited to sports, LE, or invasion forces. If so, perhaps the earlier suggestion of more focussed varieties has merit. 



carmspack said:


> iif I fell short of giving an answer - try me again . I'm game.


Not at all, thank you for the thoughtful response. You've got me researching Thuringian dogs and Swabian shepherds --- between thinking about and typing segments of my response. Fun thing to do and think about on a rainy Saturday morning. 

Thanks,

Aly


----------



## Sunsilver

_I'm not sure that I understand what you mean when you say, "American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's." Do you mean that ASL breeders were breeding, exclusively, to other ASLs? If so, do you think that that was an effort to fix type, as it were? And, if so, how well did they think that 'type' squared with GSLs or WLs? Frankly, to my eye, contemporary ASLs don't. All three look quite different, identifiably GSDs, but still quite different. I assume that they also must have done fairly early on. Is that correct?_

I can answer that. The split came (began) in 1967, when Lance of Fran-Jo was selected as Grand Victor. Bodo vom Lierberg, who had been German, Dutch and Belgian Sieger prior to being imported to the States, could get nothing better than an Excellent Select rating, and was pretty much ignored when it came to breeding. His littermate, Bernd, remained in Germany, and was extensively bred to, and can usually be found somewhere in the pedigree of most current working line dogs, usually multiple times. 

Extensive linebreeding on Lance and his sons/grandsons made the American show lines what they are today.

As for splitting the breed, pretty much ALL working dogs have split into working lines and show lines. The breeds manage to survive here in N. America and elsewhere, despite the split. It's interesting to watch it happening in the Border collie popuplation, a breed that actively fought AKC recognition for many years, because breeders feared what the show ring would do a dog that has such a strong work ethic. It was finally recognized in 1995. You can read about the politics of what happened at this link. Several of the border collie breed associations are still refusing to register their dogs with the AKC, because they KNOW what will happen when it becomes a show dog. The show ring completely ruined both the Scotch collie and the Shetland sheep dog as working dogs.

AKC Versus the Border Collie


----------



## Sabis mom

Aly said:


> Yes, Carmen, you did. Thank you for taking the time to map out a complicated answer --- with suggested reading materials! FWIW, Hopkins press has the Derry book for almost half the cost that Amazon does; can't wait for it to arrive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, when you reference closing of the "stud book" do you mean SV show lines only or something else? Do you know what the rationale was for deciding to close the stud book? Dollars again or something else?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure that I understand what you mean when you say, "American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's." Do you mean that ASL breeders were breeding, _exclusively_, to other ASLs? If so, do you think that that was an effort to fix type, as it were? And, if so, how well did they think that 'type' squared with GSLs or WLs? Frankly, to my eye, contemporary ASLs don't. All three look quite different, identifiably GSDs, but still quite different. I assume that they also must have done fairly early on. Is that correct?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a similar thing happened/is happening with IWs and very likely other breeds, as well, given the undue (IMO) emphasis on breeding to a 'winner' and/or backmassing on same. With IWs, the problem is further magnified by the fact that the available gene pool (viz., population of IWs worldwide) is severely limited to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so now I'm going to assume the role of Devil's Advocate, with just a _touch _of personal interest. This is a fascinating and important (IMO) discussion to read, think about and participate in, but it's at a different level of analysis (What's Best for the _Breed_) than I suspect that many owners exist. Or, perhaps, even want to exist.
> 
> At a different, more individual level, the question becomes "How does all that history and politics map onto and shape my choices as a GSD owner?" I grew up with GSDs, love the breed dearly, but far too many of the dogs I see now literally hurt my heart. Do not misunderstand, this is not a plea for a Golden/Lab in a GSD suit; far from it. *But, if a critical aspect of the breed's character is its versatility and I believe that it is, then it should be suitable for an active home.* Not limited to sports, LE, or invasion forces. If so, perhaps the earlier suggestion of more focussed varieties has merit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all, thank you for the thoughtful response. You've got me researching Thuringian dogs and Swabian shepherds --- between thinking about and typing segments of my response. Fun thing to do and think about on a rainy Saturday morning.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Aly


I have been studying the Thuringian and Swabian shepherds for a while now and I think I am in love :blush:

Once again Aly, it seems you and I have similar thoughts. I don't want a watered down version of the breed, I want a return of the intelligence, biddability and versatility. I want, as I keep saying, those go anywhere, do anything, horse healthy, willing dogs. 
I keep thinking about Thoroughbreds and the split between the show/saddle stock and the racing stock that has impacted the breed so little. Lines can still be crossed and the impact is still a usable animal.

I look at some of these videos and it hurts my heart. The number of showline pups that are posted on the forum with "weird back legs" is appalling and only the tip of the iceberg. The crippling deformities produced is sad, for owners and dogs. Yet when I was looking for a WL pup I was consistently being told "to much dog for a pet". So we are stuck. We have a handful of breeders, a small handful, who are trying frantically to preserve what was and uneducated buyers who are being told by breeders, and vets, that the current trends are normal and acceptable. I have been saying for years that the solution is in education, but how to accomplish that is beyond me. Especially when everyone wants a puppy RIGHT NOW!


----------



## kimbale

cliffson1 said:


> Thank you for a post that is objective, knowledgeable, and coming from a person that not only owns WGSL dogs, but understands the insides from participating and contact. To me your post has much validation based on actual experiences as opposed to false perceptions fueled by likes and wished. People like you; because of your objectivity and truthfulness, are the hope for the breed and SL (as part of the breed) for the future.


Thanks! Happy to share what I am seeing and am involved in. I own and train both WGSL dogs and working line dogs. I like both for different reasons. Actually have another thread on here about a kennel I am looking to get my next WL from. So I see the stark differences between the lines and how people handle both lines and what they value. I'd like to see more of the working line mentality infused into the WGSL world. Some breeders have that mentality but a vast majority don't.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## carmspack

Aly said:


> Yes, I understand how registries work, politically and otherwise; that wasn't the basis of my question. In addition to her other comments, Carmen's mention of gene mapping put me in mind of _this study_ demonstrating variance in the genetic underpinnings, so to say, of show, working, and mixed lines:
> 
> https://www.rsv2000.de/en/news/special-articels/breeding/genetische-differenzierung-des-dsh.html
> 
> Aly



yes -- that is what I keep saying -- one of my friends , worked and contributed to
the mapping of the canine and the human genome 

a breed with type and genetics 

https://www.rsv2000.de/en/news/special-articels/breeding/genetische-differenzierung-des-dsh.html


----------



## carmspack

Sunsilver said:


> _I'm not sure that I understand what you mean when you say, "American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's." Do you mean that ASL breeders were breeding, exclusively, to other ASLs? If so, do you think that that was an effort to fix type, as it were? And, if so, how well did they think that 'type' squared with GSLs or WLs? Frankly, to my eye, contemporary ASLs don't. All three look quite different, identifiably GSDs, but still quite different. I assume that they also must have done fairly early on. Is that correct?_
> 
> I can answer that. The split came (began) in 1967, when Lance of Fran-Jo was selected as Grand Victor. Bodo vom Lierberg, who had been German, Dutch and Belgian Sieger prior to being imported to the States, could get nothing better than an Excellent Select rating, and was pretty much ignored when it came to breeding. His littermate, Bernd, remained in Germany, and was extensively bred to, and can usually be found somewhere in the pedigree of most current working line dogs, usually multiple times.
> 
> Extensive linebreeding on Lance and his sons/grandsons made the American show lines what they are today.
> 
> As for splitting the breed, pretty much ALL working dogs have split into working lines and show lines. The breeds manage to survive here in N. America and elsewhere, despite the split. It's interesting to watch it happening in the Border collie popuplation, a breed that actively fought AKC recognition for many years, because breeders feared what the show ring would do a dog that has such a strong work ethic. It was finally recognized in 1995. You can read about the politics of what happened at this link. Several of the border collie breed associations are still refusing to register their dogs with the AKC, because they KNOW what will happen when it becomes a show dog. The show ring completely ruined both the Scotch collie and the Shetland sheep dog as working dogs.
> 
> AKC Versus the Border Collie



yes lol - and when Aly gets her copy of "Bred for Perfection by Margaret Derry she will be very able to add l many comments to this selection process

they are distinct and if you were to do a gene map as was done with WGSL and WGwork and combinations - you will see as much of a distinct group for the ASL as shown in this study https://www.rsv2000.de/en/news/special-articels/breeding/genetische-differenzierung-des-dsh.html 

Lance of Fran Jo was a good dog.

I saw the split happenng before my eyes . There were sort of two main groups - Lance
and Mike - 

Lance lines won out in part because of the owners and handler - influencers par excellane
young Jimmy Moses . 

I was there because some of those influential , radically shifting dogs were born and bred , literally just down the road .- 

Mary Vurma - Mirheim kennels - - a real taste for extreme extreme estabilsihed with this breeding a father to daughter breeding !!!! Mriheims Abbey to her sire Lance of Fran Jo
producing Mirheims Zeto and Zeus this is Zeus Zeto of Fran-Jo 

this is Zeto = more extreme than Zeus Zeus of Fran-Jo 

as they say in those cheesy info mercials - but wait , there's more

I am not going out of my way to find obscure fringe breeding - I am giving you 
prime , influential recognized and appreciated and bred and bred (ROM)
examples

here you go Amber's Flair 

German ? shepherd -- 


sunsilver this one's for you Mirheim's Otis 

I saw those dogs . I saw dozens of direct pups at sanction matches and later big specialty shows .

the pups could barely walk . the hind legs would ctoss over and sometimes they would hook onto each other and had to manually lifted out of that position. 

there was more side winding than a snake . They didn't look like GSD , heck they didn't look like dogs.

ALL "American" show lines go back to this . 
I have decades of the GSDCA Red Book and even more Reviews.

It is a shame because there were some good solid dogs .


----------



## carmspack

Aly I will try and tackle each question that you had .


----------



## Sunsilver

Carmen, there are some insane inbreeding coefficients with those dogs!! :surprise:


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Rana said:


> Carmen,
> 
> Thanks for your clarification of "straight vs correct" back. I have been lurking on this forum long to have a lot of respect for you, your comments, and what you are doing to preserve this wonderful breed.
> 
> Agree with your comments on the "off" switch as well. We will driving 10-11 hours on our way to GA and Zeus (my dog) will have no issues napping most of the day so long as the AC is set at COLD..so, yes he can wait patiently most of the times but then he needs to be worked hard.


I'm done with this hatred for WGSL party. SOMEHOW excellent dogs bred from WGSL DO EXIST. There are actually WGSL dogs whos hind legs are not or do not appear to be shorter than the front, and and do not have an arched downhill spine like an angry cat. There are WGSL dogs living with familys across the United States who have solid nerve. They may not be great mansport biters but they were not bred for that. Anyway, so long for a long while. I am going to train Inga in the kind of Send Out that I like. Running out in the direction I send her and hitting the dirt posed like the Sphinx, still facing the direction indicated.


----------



## Jax08

Wait...it was your party!!! Are you throwing us all out?!!! RUDE!!! :rofl:

Closing Time. You don't have to go home but you can't stay here!


----------



## Nigel

Nobody's hating on wgsl's. We're on our second one, my wife absolutely loves them so there will always be one in our house.


----------



## Sabis mom

Nurse Bishop said:


> I'm done with this hatred for WGSL party. SOMEHOW excellent dogs bred from WGSL DO EXIST. There are actually WGSL dogs whos hind legs are not or do not appear to be shorter than the front, and and do not have an arched downhill spine like an angry cat. There are WGSL dogs living with familys across the United States who have solid nerve. They may not be great mansport biters but they were not bred for that. Anyway, so long for a long while. I am going to train Inga in the kind of Send Out that I like. Running out in the direction I send her and hitting the dirt posed like the Sphinx, still facing the direction indicated.


Lots of times people get hung up on one fact and forget the rest. People used to tell me all time that Bud was DDR, except I don't think he was. I know he was working lines and I believe his maternal line came from the former DDR, but I think his sire line had some other stuff in there to.
Inga is a beautiful girl and has been all that you wanted in a dog, but I think her pedigree is not all WGSL. I know where she came from, found it quite by accident. You did not buy her for her pedigree so why focus on it.

No one is "hating" any dogs. Some of us are sad and frustrated that some breeders are heading in the wrong direction, and a quick search on this forum will pull up post after post of WGSL pups with issues. Issues that will cause hurt and harm as they grow, and heartache for the owners.

You posted the video. You knew it was wrong. The points made throughout the thread were valid and not in any way directed at your dog. This one segment of the breed is producing dogs with crippling deformities, and it isn't just continuing it's getting worse. Obviously not all breeders, no one said that. In fact we have had input from owners of active, healthy, workable dogs.


----------



## carmspack

Nurse Bishop you referenced Linda Shaw's book many times.
Did you buy it or are you going by the 50 free pages given as a preview?

The good stuff happens after page 50.

I have known Linda for close to 40 years. 
I know that this book and all her efforts were not based out of hate-on for the GSD or
the WGSL's .
Quite the opposite. 

your dog was never analysed or critiqued . 

Look at the top line of Faust Busecker Schloos -- compare.

the saddle back comment with the picture of a horse with blanket, rider with good seat
was a pporly veiled flipping the bird.

I think this has been a good and worth while thread - so thanks for that.

A good thread that can continue for a long time because there is much to learn .

Give your dog a pat for me .


----------



## cliffson1

Nurse Bishop said:


> I'm done with this hatred for WGSL party. SOMEHOW excellent dogs bred from WGSL DO EXIST. There are actually WGSL dogs whos hind legs are not or do not appear to be shorter than the front, and and do not have an arched downhill spine like an angry cat. There are WGSL dogs living with familys across the United States who have solid nerve. They may not be great mansport biters but they were not bred for that. Anyway, so long for a long while. I am going to train Inga in the kind of Send Out that I like. Running out in the direction I send her and hitting the dirt posed like the Sphinx, still facing the direction indicated.


I THINK if you read Kimbale’s post, they do write that good WGSL dogs do exist and in fact they own one themselves....BUT kimbale accurately reflects that they see far too many SL dogs that do not reflect the strength of temperament and performance that the standard indicates we should reasonably expect. Kimbale laments this as do many others, of the more knowledgeable and experienced people in the breed. That DOESNT mean good WGSL don’t EXIST by any means, but there is a big difference between being the exception and being the norm....and that is where blinders often exist.


----------



## Aly

DISCLAIMER: I don't know how/why the wink icon appears next to the title and I am insufficiently caffeinated to figure out how get rid of it. My apologies.

Thanks for starting this thread, @NurseBishop. It may have evolved in a direction that you don't care for, but I found it thoughtful, interesting and well worth the read. As to what you see as the thread's derailment, let me just say this. I think that this thread, like many others, actually contains two different subthreads which represent the two different levels of analysis to which I alluded upthread (i.e., _What's Best for the Breed vs. What's Good for Me/My Dog_). 

Your opening post raised the _Breed _question by focusing on the breeding/judging practices (real or implied) reflected in the video you linked. Some folks feel very strongly about what's happened in certain, perhaps all, contemporary GSD lines. So, when you post a comment to the effect of "Tell me people aren't breeding for this," you're bound to get passionate responses --- at the _Breed _level. Ironically, the passionate responses that I read all agreed with you.

Unfortunately, that passionate response somehow got misinterpreted as an assertion that no good examples could possibly exist --- thereby conflating two different levels of analysis (viz., "What's good for the Breed vs. What's good for Me/My Dog"). Consequently, your lovely girl became negatively implicated in the discussion. _But, only by you._ 

People were not discussing/dissing you, your lovely Inga, or what the two of you have accomplished thus far. _They shared and were addressing the very same *concerns about the breed* that prompted you to post the video. _ In other words, Inga may be exceptional (in all senses of the word), but that doesn't change the fact of an overriding trend --- which you yourself observed. 

Discussions on internet boards are often a lot like herding cats. Unless one has a basket of smelly fish with which to lead the way, the direction can be surprising, unnerving even. It happens. I hope that you hang around and continue to post provocative questions like this. The resulting discussion has been terrific and I've personally learned a lot. 

Aly


----------



## Sunsilver

Very good summation, Aly! 

Two thumbs up!

I'm a member of the showline club, too, and am horrified at what's been happening to both the German and American dogs. Though I do see SOME improvement in the American lines, over what Carmen posted upstream, namely less inbreeding and somewhat better less extreme structure, they are still pretty much a mess. And it's still a very rare thing for a show line breeder to actually see any need to prove that this dog, which was bred by its founder to WORK is still capable of getting any sort of working title! :crying:


----------



## Aly

Sabis mom said:


> I have been studying the Thuringian and Swabian shepherds for a while now and I think I am in love :blush:
> 
> Once again Aly, it seems you and I have similar thoughts. I don't want a watered down version of the breed, I want a return of the intelligence, biddability and versatility. I want, as I keep saying, those go anywhere, do anything, horse healthy, willing dogs.
> I keep thinking about Thoroughbreds and the split between the show/saddle stock and the racing stock that has impacted the breed so little. Lines can still be crossed and the impact is still a usable animal.
> 
> I look at some of these videos and it hurts my heart. The number of showline pups that are posted on the forum with "weird back legs" is appalling and only the tip of the iceberg. The crippling deformities produced is sad, for owners and dogs. Yet when I was looking for a WL pup I was consistently being told "to much dog for a pet". So we are stuck. We have a handful of breeders, a small handful, who are trying frantically to preserve what was and uneducated buyers who are being told by breeders, and vets, that the current trends are normal and acceptable. I have been saying for years that the solution is in education, but how to accomplish that is beyond me. Especially when everyone wants a puppy RIGHT NOW!


Yes, we do. I didn't just grow up with GSDs, I also grew up riding OTTBs (ring work, jumping, oh and introducing trails where leaves can kill). So, I know exactly what you mean. LOL. 

I'm beginning to think about a second pup in the next year, so this discussion also has personal resonance. I'm not against getting a pup from rescue/shelter, _per se_, but I doubt that I'll get lucky twice. I certainly didn't expect to get as lucky as I have with Rachel. I've gone the 'reputable' breeder route for years. The problem is that the more you learn, the greater the perceived risk. I get balancing the odds in the buyer's favor, but still it's a conundrum. 

I think that education is key as well, but I don't see that happening other than on forums like this. Then too, I'm not convinced that JQP _wants _the education (particularly beforehand when it would be most useful), they seem to want a puppy NOW, as you say. Worse, they also seem to want a puppy that will magically transform into Rinty with very little to no effort. Sigh. 

Aly


----------



## Aly

carmspack said:


> Aly I will try and tackle each question that you had .


Okay, I'll wait.


----------



## Nigel

Aly said:


> Yes, we do. I didn't just grow up with GSDs, I also grew up riding OTTBs (ring work, jumping, oh and introducing trails where leaves can kill). So, I know exactly what you mean. LOL.
> 
> *I'm beginning to think about a second pup in the next year, so this discussion also has personal resonance. I'm not against getting a pup from rescue/shelter, per se, but I doubt that I'll get lucky twice. I certainly didn't expect to get as lucky as I have with Rachel. I've gone the 'reputable' breeder route for years. The problem is that the more you learn, the greater the perceived risk. I get balancing the odds in the buyer's favor, but still it's a conundrum. *
> 
> I think that education is key as well, but I don't see that happening other than on forums like this. Then too, I'm not convinced that JQP _wants _the education (particularly beforehand when it would be most useful), they seem to want a puppy NOW, as you say. Worse, they also seem to want a puppy that will magically transform into Rinty with very little to no effort. Sigh.
> 
> Aly


 I have come to realise how fortunate we have been concerning the health (& temperament) of our byb girls. The laundry list of potential health problems in this breed is a long one and to come away from that having only a few issues is remarkable. 

I'm not a life long GSD fan, but I have come to realise they're something different all together and will have another in the future, I am hooked. That said I'm not exactly looking forward to the search itself.


----------



## carmspack

sunsilver - hi - I thought the posts with the intense inbreeding co-efficients might have sent you to intensive care
ER.

good to see you are recoverd.

note that the breed separations happened more or less within the same time frame , mid 70's.

Canto - (martin dog) and Lance (moses dog?) and a group that was more diverse 

Refer to the iceberg breeders for the history and development.
Canto and his litter was terriby flawed . Temperament , hips, , vigour / health and longevity.

so why was Canto used -- It was because of his back . .He offered a strong firm shorter back , a remedy
to a trend with began to show softness.

And then there was greed and personal gain and power that entered the equation.

And so Canto established a family that kept to itself . A potentially good attribute beame the trade mark
exaggerated roach .

The American show lines - possibly more intensely inbred , during that era, will never produce a roach back .
It just isn't there .
The focus is on the dramatic flying trot .

This is not the functional suspended trot .


----------



## Aly

carmspack said:


> The focus is on the dramatic flying trot .
> 
> This is not the functional suspended trot .


Yup!

Aly


----------



## Vandal

I think if people want to enjoy their dogs and train them in a sport, that's just fine. However, the system is completely broken and claiming that IPO, or the soon to be IPG title, is preserving the GSD, is simply a lie that people are continuing to clinge to. It's not Schutzhund any longer, no matter if people still insist on calling it that. On the surface, perhaps it looks a bit the same but really, it's not even close. What people are focused on now and the behaviors that are held in high esteem, are damaging the breed in ways that most cannot understand. They are too impressed with flash, fueled by electric collars. And while most people will try to distract away from the fact that the majority of IPO dogs are trained with them now and want to talk about how humane they are, that really has nothing to do with it. SchH was looking for certain genetic characteristics in the dogs. Would people think it was normal to see a herding dog wearing an electric collar or working within an electric fence? Simply put, the way they are used takes away the ability to see who the dogs are. The collar is used to teach the dog to bark at the helper now as well. Which begs the question, why does a dog bred to protect need a shock to bark? That should come from the heart of the dog....the genetics, not from the equipment.
What is put on display now are mostly artificial behaviors and the trend is to believe the " bad day" idea instead of accept the fact that the dog in question has issues. People are applauding weak dogs because they managed to pass, when in years past, it would have been accepted that the dog was not cut out for it and the handler discouraged from trying....for the sake of the dog.
So, for me, the lack of knowledge concerning GSDs and genetics along with rules that apply to all breeds, (instead of SchH, which was specifically developed to test the German Shepherd Dog), it is actually more harmful than beneficial to continue to claim it is preserving temperament and working ability. It isn't.

While we can use video and pictures to demonstrate the change in structure, only the people who have witnessed the shift in temperament, (especially in the areas of courage, hardness and fight drive.....and most especially NERVE strength), can appreciate what is no longer present. 

The sport demands one type of dog now. One that is easy to reach, more frantic and excitable, (speed), when pressured and operates mainly thru the prey instinct. The grip is manipulating by teaching the dog to pull away from the helper instead of what a very good dog would do.... meaning exactly the opposite. The "working trials" are as much of a show as the conformation events and the mentality of the people is becoming the same as well.
The people who are beginners will tell you how much better the dogs are now because, like the show dogs, someone told them that or they read it on the internet.


----------



## carmspack

yup says it all .

a few more words on the North American show lines all important flying trot.

it is not an efficient , sustainable movement . Right from Linda's book page 121 

quote " GSD demonstrating the gait that is currently rewarded in North Americn show rings . Excessive 
rear and loose front create tremendous stride length , often with loft in front and kick up behind with no 
period of suspension ." (accompanied with illustration)

and quote Linda , same page " judges who look for the dog that glides forward as ifon a conveyor belt are selecting against the dogs with normal angulation and the power to launch into a long period of suspension"
(accompanying illstration showing skeleton in this motion)

No suspension. No power. energy expended . Difficult to make quick turns .

It is during the period of extension where no energy need be expended . the dog hangs in the air moving
forward.


----------



## Steve Strom

When I want another Shepherd, I guess I'll limit my search to the breeders with the disclaimer right up front, " I breed German Shepherds and they aren't as good as they used to be". This outta be easy.


----------



## Jax08

Steve Strom said:


> When I want another Shepherd, I guess I'll limit my search to the breeders with the disclaimer right up front, " I breed German Shepherds and they aren't as good as they used to be". This outta be easy.


That's Shepard, Steve.


----------



## Steve Strom

Jax08 said:


> That's Shepard, Steve.


I think I'll just go with L-A-B.


----------



## wolfy dog

Could the E-collars have replaced the hard corrections of the choke chains from the past? In the 70's I briefly attended PP trainings with my Bouvier X (had to drop put due to his puppyhood trauma of being hit by previous owners) and I didn't like the way they used these chokers on their dogs. For me an Ecollar is way less damaging. But I admit that I am not a professional or fluent in PP, IPO or Sch. Could we have forgotten the inhumane methods/tools from the past, maybe?


----------



## Nigel

wolfy dog said:


> Could the E-collars have replaced the hard corrections of the choke chains from the past? In the 70's I briefly attended PP trainings with my Bouvier X (had to drop put due to his puppyhood trauma of being hit by previous owners) and* I didn't like the way they used these chokers on their dogs*. For me an Ecollar is way less damaging. But I admit that I am not a professional or fluent in PP, IPO or Sch. Could we have forgotten the inhumane methods/tools from the past, maybe?


Curious where this occurred?


----------



## Steve Strom

I have a theory on a lot of this stuff,just my thoughts, nothing scientific. A couple of things help shape it. Growing up in the 60's, I never saw a safe Shepherd. Not a single one. Plenty of others did though. Grew up with them, owned them. I take that as there has always been varying temperaments, good and bad.

When Slam say's its not as easy to find Shepherds he needs, I consider that in with what I think. He's someone who is involved in all the different aspects of working, sport, training, procuring, all of it.

When others who have been involved with those types of things tell me this dog or that dog is as good as they've always been, the big difference is in the training, I keep that in mind. 

I understand what Anne says about faking things with the e and looking for the wrong things. I don't think its as prevalent as she does and I think there are plenty of people able to look at the actual dog. I tend to compare some of that with the old school, make em do it. People will say they can see the difference between the training and the dog with that style, the pre-1990's dogs. I don't think thats changed, a little pressure still shows what you have. 

I look at numbers. The entry the year of the video starting this thread was 852. Now its consistently over 1000. Before about 1992, it was generally around 30. Judges putting up the wrong dogs, ok. But I think if you had 1000 dogs entered in anything from 1946 to 1990, there probably would have still been 30 to 50 stand outs. You'll always have differences in them, and who's breeding what. To me, the key word is different. No one wants a weak nerved dog, but at the same time, no one is going to listen to someone who isn't out there showing them. 

I understand there is a point to be made about Schutzhund/IPO/IPG, but if you want to continue to have people interested in testing dogs, you can't limit how many people will get out and try. The more people you can include in it, is the only way you'll find enough people to preserve what you want. There's a limit to how many people will put in that effort, you need to increase interest and involvement if you want the chance to use something like this article and show them:
https://www.germanshepherddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IPO-PROTECTION-Website-Updated.pdf

Thats the only way to convince people that this dog should be bred and that one shouldn't.

So going back to numbers, I think it makes sense that with the amount of dogs bred now, and the huge demand like there never was before, the percentage of good dogs probably hasn't really changed, they're mostly just spread thinner. I know money is a big part of dogs, but I know that isn't the only thing for everyone.


----------



## wolfy dog

Nigel said:


> Curious where this occurred?


Small city in Western Europe


----------



## Vandal

I'm going to assume the comment about humane and collars is directed at me, even though I tried to make it clear I wasn't talking about how humane anything is. But this is always where it goes, even when you point out that's not what you're trying to talk about. 
The sport was intended to put the dog's genetics on display. Not the skills of a trainer or how well advanced tools can make you think a dog is better than it is. 
We look at dogs herding and all the genetic qualities they possess naturally in that endeavor. There was a time we looked for more of that in the sport. But now that is just about gone. And I'm sorry people don't understand that because it's just one more problem for the breed. 
And as far as the way people corrected dogs years ago. We've always had terrible trainers involved in the sport. And believe it or not, they are still there. Now it's a little more covert because they can simply turn the dial. And let me tell you, just about everyone I've ever watched using an e collar, turns that dial, no matter how much they want to talk about "low stim" .I've seen horrific abuse using electric. Don't fool yourself into thinking that because there is a different type of tool, the people using it don't matter.


----------



## GypsyGhost

Steve Strom said:


> I have a theory on a lot of this stuff,just my thoughts, nothing scientific. A couple of things help shape it. Growing up in the 60's, I never saw a safe Shepherd. Not a single one. Plenty of others did though. Grew up with them, owned them. I take that as there has always been varying temperaments, good and bad.
> 
> When Slam say's its not as easy to find Shepherds he needs, I consider that in with what I think. He's someone who is involved in all the different aspects of working, sport, training, procuring, all of it.
> 
> When others who have been involved with those types of things tell me this dog or that dog is as good as they've always been, the big difference is in the training, I keep that in mind.
> 
> I understand what Anne says about faking things with the e and looking for the wrong things. I don't think its as prevalent as she does and I think there are plenty of people able to look at the actual dog. I tend to compare some of that with the old school, make em do it. People will say they can see the difference between the training and the dog with that style, the pre-1990's dogs. I don't think thats changed, a little pressure still shows what you have.
> 
> I look at numbers. The entry the year of the video starting this thread was 852. Now its consistently over 1000. Before about 1992, it was generally around 30. Judges putting up the wrong dogs, ok. But I think if you had 1000 dogs entered in anything from 1946 to 1990, there probably would have still been 30 to 50 stand outs. You'll always have differences in them, and who's breeding what. To me, the key word is different. No one wants a weak nerved dog, but at the same time, no one is going to listen to someone who isn't out there showing them.
> 
> I understand there is a point to be made about Schutzhund/IPO/IPG, but if you want to continue to have people interested in testing dogs, you can't limit how many people will get out and try. The more people you can include in it, is the only way you'll find enough people to preserve what you want. There's a limit to how many people will put in that effort, you need to increase interest and involvement if you want the chance to use something like this article and show them:
> https://www.germanshepherddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IPO-PROTECTION-Website-Updated.pdf
> 
> Thats the only way to convince people that this dog should be bred and that one shouldn't.
> 
> So going back to numbers, I think it makes sense that with the amount of dogs bred now, and the huge demand like there never was before, the percentage of good dogs probably hasn't really changed, they're mostly just spread thinner. I know money is a big part of dogs, but I know that isn't the only thing for everyone.


This is why it is so important to build relationships with breeders that interest you... this is how you find out how they utilize training, what they see in a dog naturally vs what they really had to work at, what they find acceptable to “cover up” with training. For what it’s worth, the small sampling of breeders I have had an opportunity to train with do view training for sport as a breed test. Of course they think winning and titling is nice, I think it’s human nature to feel that way whan you put as much effort into something as IPO takes. But I have not seen these people take a dog that doesn’t have balanced drives, or is weak nerved, or has major health issues and breed them just because they earned a title. In my personal experience, a lot of breeders who happen to do IPO are honest about their dogs. They are not “breeding for sport”. Most of the puppies they produce prove the versatility in their program, in that they aren’t all going to IPO homes. I’ve seen far more dogs with less than stellar nerves come out of programs where the breeder doesn’t do IPO. I’ve also seen less than ideal conformation come from these breeders, as well. And I’m not talking about the “ideal” that is shown in the video in the OP. 

Titles are not everything. IPO training is not everything. But in the right hands, with someone who actually cares about the breed, they can sure tell you a lot.


----------



## Sabis mom

Vandal said:


> I'm going to assume the comment about humane and collars is directed at me, even though I tried to make it clear I wasn't talking about how humane anything is. But this is always where it goes, even when you point out that's not what you're trying to talk about.
> *The sport was intended to put the dog's genetics on display. Not the skills of a trainer or how well advanced tools can make you think a dog is better than it is. *
> We look at dogs herding and all the genetic qualities they possess naturally in that endeavor. There was a time we looked for more of that in the sport. But now that is just about gone. And I'm sorry people don't understand that because it's just one more problem for the breed.
> And as far as the way people corrected dogs years ago. We've always had terrible trainers involved in the sport. And believe it or not, they are still there. Now it's a little more covert because they can simply turn the dial. And let me tell you, just about everyone I've ever watched using an e collar, turns that dial, no matter how much they want to talk about "low stim" .I've seen horrific abuse using electric. Don't fool yourself into thinking that because there is a different type of tool, the people using it don't matter.


Any time there are conversations about training or sport I think of this point. I can compel a dog to react in a certain way, and any person with any skill can do the same. Operant conditioning. I think my stumbling point is that for the aspects of the breed that are supposed to be tested I shouldn't have to. I expect my German Shepherd Dog to possess at least a modicum of protective instinct, I expect that it should be able to discern between a bumbling child and an intruder, I expect that it should be stable enough to take out in public without having a panic attack or lunging at pedestrians and I expect it to have the structure and strength of a working dog.
I am less concerned about flash and flare, and I don't give a fig about color. The dogs could be purple with pink polka dots for all I care. I need an inherent desire to work as a team, the drive to get the job done, the intelligence to know when I as the handler am making a mistake and correct for that. I don't care if the dog is curled around my leg staring up at me in a focused heel, in fact I can think of no real world use for that, and if I wanted to see an animal throwing it's feet around I would go to a Hackney Horse show. This breed is supposed to have a sustainable, energy saving trot. The trot is only a sustainable gait if wasted motion is minimized.
A dog with the structure seen in the video is incapable of work, and this is a working breed. The attempts to water down the temperament so that these dogs are suitable for a city pet have resulted in grossly unstable dogs. 

I have the poster child for bad breeding, I love her to bits and she is a good dog, but I do NOT hold her up as a good German Shepherd. I see the whole breed as problematic if the WL breeders are breeding sport dogs and the SL breeders are breeding show ponies.


----------



## Jax08

The sport long ago deviated from a breed test to a sport. IMO, it's up to the breeder to put the breed first and the trophies second. I, as a total newbie, am fully aware of my dog's strengths and faults. It's not that hard to know what traits makes a dog not worthy of breeding.


----------



## Steve Strom

Vandal said:


> I'm going to assume the comment about humane and collars is directed at me, even though I tried to make it clear I wasn't talking about how humane anything is. But this is always where it goes, even when you point out that's not what you're trying to talk about.
> The sport was intended to put the dog's genetics on display. Not the skills of a trainer or how well advanced tools can make you think a dog is better than it is.
> We look at dogs herding and all the genetic qualities they possess naturally in that endeavor. There was a time we looked for more of that in the sport. But now that is just about gone. And I'm sorry people don't understand that because it's just one more problem for the breed.
> And as far as the way people corrected dogs years ago. We've always had terrible trainers involved in the sport. And believe it or not, they are still there. Now it's a little more covert because they can simply turn the dial. And let me tell you, just about everyone I've ever watched using an e collar, turns that dial, no matter how much they want to talk about "low stim" .I've seen horrific abuse using electric. Don't fool yourself into thinking that because there is a different type of tool, the people using it don't matter.


If you and I watched a trial together 30 years ago, you would point out the good and bad. If we watched a trial together last week, you would still be able to point out the good and the bad. I just don't think there's a big difference now between good and good or bad and bad. You would still recognize it even with the new rules. If you worked my dog, I'm sure you'd know immediately his strengths and weakness's and I bet there's dogs from years ago you've seen that were the same.

I'm not talking about individuals with poor training.30 years ago there were dogs that would have responded to the good training thats done now, the way the dogs do now. There are dogs now that don't. The genetics are still there, other wise no one on here could say they breed good dogs. There's such a difference in the numbers now, faults always stand out that much more.


----------



## Sunsilver

Vandal said:


> The collar is used to teach the dog to bark at the helper now as well. Which begs the question, why does a dog bred to protect need a shock to bark? That should come from the heart of the dog....the genetics, not from the equipment.


I mentioned to one of the show line people at club about the 2017 VA1 dog, Gary von Hunegrab not even doing a bark and hold, and was told this is a 'new thing' the SV is allowing the handlers to do during the courage test, guarding the decoy without barking. It didn't seem right to me, and thank you, Vandal, for pointing out that it's NOT!

Carm, didn't have a heart attack over the inbreeding index because I've seen it all before, too many times...


----------



## Steve Strom

Sunsilver said:


> I mentioned to one of the show line people at club about the 2017 VA1 dog, Gary von Hunegrab not even doing a bark and hold, and was told this is a 'new thing' the SV is allowing the handlers to do during the courage test, guarding the decoy without barking. It didn't seem right to me, and thank you, Vandal, for pointing out that it's NOT!
> 
> Carm, didn't have a heart attack over the inbreeding index because I've seen it all before, too many times...


Go look up silent guard before you reach any conclusions.


----------



## Nigel

Sunsilver said:


> I mentioned to one of the show line people at club about the 2017 VA1 dog, Gary von Hunegrab not even doing a bark and hold, and was told this is a 'new thing' the SV is allowing the handlers to do during the courage test, guarding the decoy without barking. It didn't seem right to me, and thank you, Vandal, for pointing out that it's NOT!
> 
> Carm, didn't have a heart attack over the inbreeding index because I've seen it all before, too many times...


ETA, Never mind, Steve already mentioned the silent guard.


----------



## Nigel

Steve Strom said:


> Go look up silent guard before you reach any conclusions.


I was reading a Denise Fenzi page talking about her dog doing a silent guard. First time I have heard of it.


----------



## Steve Strom

Different reasons for different dogs to silent guard, but one thing it ain't is new or necessarily wrong at all.


----------



## kimbale

Nurse Bishop said:


> I'm done with this hatred for WGSL party. SOMEHOW excellent dogs bred from WGSL DO EXIST. There are actually WGSL dogs whos hind legs are not or do not appear to be shorter than the front, and and do not have an arched downhill spine like an angry cat. There are WGSL dogs living with familys across the United States who have solid nerve. They may not be great mansport biters but they were not bred for that. Anyway, so long for a long while. I am going to train Inga in the kind of Send Out that I like. Running out in the direction I send her and hitting the dirt posed like the Sphinx, still facing the direction indicated.


Wait...what? I supported exactly this in my comment about my own WGSL and what I am seeing in the SV shows and trials that I attend. My assertion was that there are very nice WGSL dogs out there with very strong nerve and great drive, dogs that do well in the courage test and IPO ring. My point was that the JUDGES are the ones who are ranking these dogs low and holding up poorer representations of the breed as dogs that we all should aspire to breed to. And this mindset is killing the WGSL bloodlines but creating nervy, weak, over-angulated dogs that don't represent the goal of the breed.

My point was that there are exceptional WGSL breeders out there who breed for the whole dog (not a ton, but a few), but that their dogs aren't ranked high in shows because they don't have that extreme angulation look that judges have somehow started to favor.

I love my WGSL, and think he's a great example of the lines. There are a lot of judges who won't agree with me, because he isn't as angulated and doesn't move with his rear to the ground. But, oh well. He's training under a narcotics K9 handler who has seen a ton of dogs fail out of training, and who really really likes what he sees in my dog. That's what's important to me, not what some conformation judge says. And that was my point. There are WGSL dogs doing great things in work, but they won't get VA and won't stand out in the big shows because of what the judges are doing to the breed.

And, I believe pretty much most people here liked what I had to say and agreed with it. So...not seeing the disconnect. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Vandal

I'm going to try to respond quickly and maybe I'll come back later. But I'm out of time right now.

Steve… I'm pretty sure if you came here and trained with me, you might have a completely different perspective of who I am, what I think about the dogs etc. What we talk about on the Internet is quite limited to the topic and people tend to read what I say in absolutes or maybe they don't read carefully and miss the point. I think if people would simply ask me what I mean it would make it more clear than simply assuming but whatever . That's the risk you take when you involve yourself in these debates.

I am interested in where you're getting those numbers. I went to the German Sieger Show in 1982 and the stadium was packed with people. There was no lack of participation and SV membership has continued to drop by the thousands over the years since then. Now if we are talking about America, the entries increased over the years because the first show here was in the 1990s.

And while you and I could watch a trial together and point out the good and the bad, the rules would've also pointed it out and the "bad" would have been eliminated by those same rules. That is not the case now and I see many dogs passing that really have no business having those letters after their name. I tried to address that in my earlier posts. It just seems people take it all personally if you try to point out the reality of the situation.

And again, I think it's difficult for people who were not there to appreciate what I'm saying. The dogs are definitely not the same. Maybe some people think they are better but I don't see the kinds of dogs very often that I saw back then. Especially in the way they are performing in protection work or the level of intelligence and a number of other things. As a breeder, I will always want to see who my dog really is, not what certain types of training could make that dog look like. Or how a skewed set of rules demands that they look like. And I'm not alone in this any longer. It took some people a little bit to catch on but more and more people are seeing what's happening. 

To the person that talked about being raised in the 60s and 70s and the quality of dogs. I would ask you where you were raised, here or in Germany? Because I saw those dogs here in America. They were plenty of crappy dogs. I probably owned a couple as a kid. However, SchH didn't start in ernest in America until the mid-1970s. And you can be sure, the dogs being imported from Germany we're not always the best ones. Yes, there were people who got some good ones and brought them here but the majority were pretty much what the Germans didn't want. 

And I'm not talking about who is honest or dishonest nor have I pointed out any particular breeder or anything else. I am talking about the system of conformation shows and working trials no longer being a test for the dogs. That doesn't stop people from saying it is however. Even if you want to call it the "bare minimum". What it is promoting is not always the best traits for a German Shepherd dog. Again you can read my post above that talks about the difference between what the title is now and what it was then.

I also visit clubs and listen to what people have to say. And the constant lecturing about what a good breeder is and how much they believe in titles. And then they bring their dog out. And that's all I have to say about that. lol.
But as long as you repeat that story, no one will ask you to prove a thing. But if you criticize it, suddenly you aren't doing enough because posting on a dog forum means you aren't doing anything with your dogs. Suddenly people know exactly what you're doing every minute of the day. It's amazing.


----------



## Aly

carmspack said:


> yup says it all .


That 'yup,' comes from decades of watching movement (ringside) in multiple breeds from two different species. Movement clearly differs among breeds and between species; it's not the same nor should it be. But, I've found that, over time, close watching and listening develops the eye. At my best, I could even, not always but often, tell you who would win even if it was an animal that I thought shouldn't place. 

But, I was raised right...



Aly


----------



## Aly

Steve Strom said:


> I have a theory on a lot of this stuff,just my thoughts, nothing scientific. A couple of things help shape it. Growing up in the 60's, I never saw a safe Shepherd. Not a single one. Plenty of others did though. Grew up with them, owned them. I take that as there has always been varying temperaments, good and bad.


Steve, can you say some more about what you mean by a "safe Shepherd?" Do you mean a soft dog or something else?

Aly


----------



## Nigel

Steve Strom said:


> Different reasons for different dogs to silent guard, but one thing it ain't is new or necessarily wrong at all.


Good to know. I try to find ways to improve my training methods and I enjoyed her article and her perspective.


----------



## Steve Strom

> I am interested in where you're getting those numbers. I went to the German Sieger Show in 1982 and the stadium was packed with people.


Working dog eu shows them from the 40's to current:









Is it possibly incomplete?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Steve Strom said:


> Sunsilver said:
> 
> 
> 
> I mentioned to one of the show line people at club about the 2017 VA1 dog, Gary von Hunegrab not even doing a bark and hold, and was told this is a 'new thing' the SV is allowing the handlers to do during the courage test, guarding the decoy without barking. It didn't seem right to me, and thank you, Vandal, for pointing out that it's NOT!
> 
> Carm, didn't have a heart attack over the inbreeding index because I've seen it all before, too many times.../forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
> 
> 
> 
> Go look up silent guard before you reach any conclusions.
Click to expand...

I was wondering about that. I had a dog who was straight up scary without making a sound. I know from experience with him that a dog doesn't have to bark to be intense or mean business.

I have another question:

Can someone explain to me what has changed so much about IPO? I heard someone say rule changes, what are they?

It went from schh to IPO and now IPG? What is so different about it now?

I mean AKC has eliminated out of sight group stays. So I can tell you th as t is a major difference in an open obedience title now than a few years ago. And there is a very vocal group carrying on about dumbing down obedience to suit the masses. 

So what is different about IPO?


----------



## Steve Strom

> Steve… I'm pretty sure if you came here and trained with me, you might have a completely different perspective of who I am, what I think about the dogs etc.


Hey Anne, I would appreciate and respect your opinion and anything you'd pass on to me from your experience. I'd guess there would be things you'd like about my dog and things you wouldn't and you'd immediately see anything poor handling has created, and I wouldn't take anything personal. My perspective about the dogs doesn't exactly match with the way these threads go. I think the separation is a good thing. No one wants a weak nerved dog whether they understand that's the problem or not, but not every one wants an honestly aggressive one either, even with strong nerves. I say let both groups have what they want, and do what you can to involve people in each. Its the best way to preserve these things.


----------



## Steve Strom

Aly said:


> Steve, can you say some more about what you mean by a "safe Shepherd?" Do you mean a soft dog or something else?
> 
> Aly


Only dad could handle them. Period.


----------



## lhczth

carmspack said:


> s
> so why was Canto used -- It was because of his back . .He offered a strong firm shorter back , a remedy
> to a trend with began to show softness.



He also brought a flash that was very popular with buyers world wide, much like Lance brought flash to the ASL. Canto had Hemophilia A which he passed on to all of his daughters. He died at 4 because of this. The fact that he had so much influence on the breed despite having maybe 2.5 years of breeding says a lot about how popular he was and how much money and notoriety he brought to his owner/breeder and those that used him in their breeding program. 



* Hemophilia A is sex linked and found on the X (female) chromosome. It could not be passed to Cantos' sons, but was passed to all of his daughter who could then pass it onto their sons and daughters (though their daughters would have to carry 2 of the mutated X chromosomes to express it) depending on which of the 2 X chromosomes they inherited.


----------



## Vandal

I'll just say this again instead of in the middle if my amazingly long posts. Talk to text is not always a good thing.

The dogs in the 60s that people are talking about.....in America....were mostly American bred show dogs and those lines. Organized SchH was not here yet. So trying to link those dogs to SchH isn't quite accurate. Maybe Steve felt they were dangerous due to a higher degree of social aggression without sufficient nerve strength. I saw plenty of American bred dogs back then that I would classify that way. Now we have dogs who lack social aggression and the nerves aren't so great either but people think the nerves are good due to the lack of SA.
And again, make no mistake, there were some people trying to train or trial with dogs that didn't have the genetics but the rules and the judging, stopped those dogs from getting the SchH 1....which was considered the breeding title.


----------



## Steve Strom

I'm not trying to link them to Schutzhund Anne, only speaking in the context of these threads that all German Shepherds should be something, when the reality is they never all were. Your point about not getting the best dogs from Germany is another part of it. I'd bet people have always been sold titled dogs that wouldn't do a retrieve, but they still have that title. I like IPO, but I'm not saying its the be all and end all, I don't think it ever was. It still comes down to the people.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Can someone explain to me what has changed so much about IPO? I heard someone say rule changes, what are they?
> It went from schh to IPO and now IPG? What is so different about it now?
> 
> So what is different about IPO?


From the USCA website: 

https://www.germanshepherddog.com/message-doj-nathaniel-roque/


----------



## Steve Strom

I may have blurred a couple things, going back and forth between show and working. The entries I mentioned were in the show, not schutzhund. Here's another sight matching the 1982 entry, thats about all I can find.
BSZS results : Year selection

The entries for the Bundessiegerprufung follow a similar, but not as dramatic pattern.
89 dogs in 1982, slowly growing to 100 in 1992 and to 149 in 2018. More dogs bred, more dogs shown, more dogs trialed, more demand.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Steve Strom said:


> I may have blurred a couple things, going back and forth between show and working. The entries I mentioned were in the show, not schutzhund. Here's another sight matching the 1982 entry, thats about all I can find.
> BSZS results : Year selection
> 
> The entries for the Bundessiegerprufung follow a similar, but not as dramatic pattern.
> 89 dogs in 1982, slowly growing to 100 in 1992 and to 149 in 2018. More dogs bred, more dogs shown, more dogs trialed, more demand.


I wonder if the increase in participants has more to do with people being more aware of the sport because it gets more exposure today than it use to, partly because of the internet?

I don't know what registration numbers are like in the SV (or any FCI affilated registry) but in the AKC registration numbers for the GSD have gone down dramatically over the years. 85,756 in 1996 down to 41,765 in 2014. A few years ago there was an article about registrations for the GSD in the Kennel Club being in decline also.


----------



## Vandal

Yes, there were always dogs that Germans were discarding for one reason or the other. However, until the mid to late 90s the ones I saw and worked as the helper, were legitimately trained and knew the exercises. I didn't come across a fake titled dog until 1997 I think it was. VA 2 ,(US), "SchH 3" dog who was here for training before the next big show. Didn't know what a sleeve was, didn't know what a dumbbell was and had the worst temperament I think I've ever seen in a GSD. Seemed to have something similar to springer rage. 
Starting in the year 2000, I attended numerous trials and breed surveys where dogs were chased by the helper and given titles and KKL1 for life. And it wasn't just in my area. When people are being honest, they will admit that they have seen it as well. That didn't happen for the first 30 years I was involved in SchH but people who weren't there can continue to tell themselves it was always this way. Nothing I can do about that.


----------



## Steve Strom

Whiteshepherds said:


> I wonder if the increase in participants has more to do with people being more aware of the sport because it gets more exposure today than it use to, partly because of the internet?
> 
> I don't know what registration numbers are like in the SV (or any FCI affilated registry) but in the AKC registration numbers for the GSD have gone down dramatically over the years. 85,756 in 1996 down to 41,765 in 2014. A few years ago there was an article about registrations for the GSD in the Kennel Club being in decline also.


I can't find hard numbers to back it up, but I've seen different things talking about the total numbers worldwide going up to meet demand. In so many things dog related, participation seems to be down, entries in most all breed shows or obedience, so I find it interesting that these numbers are going the other way. Maybe its not hugely significant, just another little piece of things.


----------



## carmspack

ms Vandal 

to your comment " That is not the case now and I see many dogs passing that really have no business having those letters after their name"

I have lost the interest in going to trials.
I can't see the point. 

One dog mid 1990's - ltrained to perfection , trained and trained and trained to over come its weakness - a significant weakness qualified and went abroad to Nationals. 
It was ALL training. the trainer? hats off to them for their determination and skill.

this works for trial/ sport -- real life work -- a disaster -- needing to be culled from the program asap.

forward in time to maybe 15 years ago . A gsd working line , very soft and insecure, but owner having spent the $$ was determined to title. So he hired a decoy with a good eye and a good read on the dog who would 
condition and accommodate the dog and the dog showed enough to trial.
But they soon found out that not all decoys had the secret special eye or treatment and so the dog went
backwards. Two steps back.
More training by his helper friend.

hey there he is again at a trial -- doing alright -- coming up to the courage test , tjere is a pause and the
helper is switched to the dogs "buddy".who does the courage test not running at but running backwards to catch 
the dog.

leaving a lot out .... go to trial . 
At this point Linda was no longer going to the trials - having seen enough nonsense to seriously question the
validity of titles .

Went with anohter forum member -- this trial --- a dog left the ring and rummage through the group of
onlookers . To me that is a DQ. The "crowd" thought so -- NO -- he ranks high in the scores.
When a group asked about the rules - the answer was judges discretion. 
Another trial -- a dog enterted , xreaming in the car, screaming on the field, screaming during the entire
routine . NO control , dog heeling on left , large portion crossing behind and walking on therogjt . tjem fp;;pwomg
tje jamd;er . barking his head off at the guys bum. 
No outs . Dog places .

I think I went to one other after that . Friend and trainer par excellance that I recommend often as a trainer - with a stunningly beautiful , correct , dark sable dog , that was jaw dropping precise . 
I saw training and team work and a willing dog . I did not see power or drive -- I get elbowed -- you should breed to that dog --- Uh no , I couldn't the dog doesn't have the heart or fire in the belly or initiative .
Judge does the critique all good good good , and then he warns the audience , with respect to the handlers skill and he says "the dog pretty much phoned it in = needed spirit . 

this dog would have been a dream come true pet and obviously a fantastic demonstration dog .
I saw the sire in a trial - dang , the smae thing -- so the youngeer dog came by it genetically. 

and that reminds me of one newbie performance with the handler with typical nerves . Good dog .
Handler stops short of the required steps - dog so familiar with pattern continues , going the distance and
platzes.
Cute -- every one had a chuckle - 

young pups are shwn in training and it is all condititioning -- training the pattern , not traiining the dog.


----------



## cliffson1

I think that one of the things that is missed when comparing dogs of the past to the present is the effect that working/show “ lines” has had on the breed. As I have said repeatedly lines based on show/work is detrimental to the breed. If you look at the dogs that placed high or even won the German work( Bsp) and German show(BSs) nationals in the 50s, 60s, and 70s....you would see the genetics and progeny of the winners in the show ring were also successful in the working trials. Today with the extreme proliferation of the number of dogs, (as has been noted), you will see virtually no crossover of the two. The working lines don’t win in shows and the show lines can’t/don’t compete at higher levels of sport/work. So what is my point in reference to dogs of the breed today and yesteryear?? Welll, it’s a non disputed fact that 70% ( or thereabouts) of all German Shepherds in Germany are Black and red show lines, and probably a higher percent is exported by them throughout the world today. So when I look at the breed as a whole( as I do as a non line believer) then I see MORE of the breed today that does not reflects what I read in the standard, notwithstanding the health issues. So to my way of observing, I see far less dogs today that can continue the legacy of the breed ( as Slam has often said) then in years past. Sure there were bad/good dogs then and now, as there were good/bad trainers then and now....but genetically because of the saturated lines you have entrenched traits in the breed that have moved the breed away from utilitarian functionality. There are huge segments of the breed that are only functional as pets( and this statement is not said to be judgmental), and because there was no express show line or show color in those days you didn’t see the numbers you see today. 
My post is not judging pet or show or sport dogs, but rather explain why you see more of some things today and less of others as opposed to the past. 
Finally, even in sport, I was at the WUSV( world German Shepherd Sch competition) in 98 in Boston, 2008 in Florence, and 2013 in Phila for all four days in each instance.....and I see differences in performances and genetic bases from 98 and the dog’s in 2013. A definite shift in type of dog and training.....time never stands still, but that’s why we have documents( standard) to see if wee are on track or straying.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

cliffson1 said:


> I think that one of the things that is missed when comparing dogs of the past to the present is the effect that working/show “ lines” has had on the breed. As I have said repeatedly lines based on show/work is detrimental to the breed. If you look at the dogs that placed high or even won the German work( Bsp) and German show(BSs) nationals in the 50s, 60s, and 70s....you would see the genetics and progeny of the winners in the show ring were also successful in the working trials. Today with the extreme proliferation of the number of dogs, (as has been noted), you will see virtually no crossover of the two. The working lines don’t win in shows and the show lines can’t/don’t compete at higher levels of sport/work. So what is my point in reference to dogs of the breed today and yesteryear?? Welll, it’s a non disputed fact that 70% ( or thereabouts) of all German Shepherds in Germany are Black and red show lines, and probably a higher percent is exported by them throughout the world today. So when I look at the breed as a whole( as I do as a non line believer) then I see MORE of the breed today that does not reflects what I read in the standard, notwithstanding the health issues. So to my way of observing, I see far less dogs today that can continue the legacy of the breed ( as Slam has often said) then in years past. Sure there were bad/good dogs then and now, as there were good/bad trainers then and now....but genetically because of the saturated lines you have entrenched traits in the breed that have moved the breed away from utilitarian functionality. There are huge segments of the breed that are only functional as pets( and this statement is not said to be judgmental), and because there was no express show line or show color in those days you didn’t see the numbers you see today.
> My post is not judging pet or show or sport dogs, but rather explain why you see more of some things today and less of others as opposed to the past.
> Finally, even in sport, I was at the WUSV( world German Shepherd Sch competition) in 98 in Boston, 2008 in Florence, and 2013 in Phila for all four days in each instance.....and I see differences in performances and genetic bases from 98 and the dog’s in 2013. A definite shift in type of dog and training.....time never stands still, but that’s why we have documents( standard) to see if wee are on track or straying.


What was the shift in type of dog and training?


----------



## carmspack

Aly said:


> Yes, Carmen, you did. Thank you for taking the time to map out a complicated answer --- with suggested reading materials! FWIW, Hopkins press has the Derry book for almost half the cost that Amazon does; can't wait for it to arrive.
> 
> Okay, when you reference closing of the "stud book" do you mean SV show lines only or something else? Do you know what the rationale was for deciding to close the stud book? Dollars again or something else


answer ****** this was totally voluntary - the price of membership 
I can review pedigrees of GSD that are now known as working lines and GSD coming
out of Czech breeding and I can find Canto . Usually one time . Used to acquire some
benefit and then choosing the progeny which have kept the original intentios .

I think , as far as I can try to fiugre out the dynamics , that there already was a slide or favouring of the R litter Osnabruckerland - Rolf, Rosel and Roland . 

two sensibilities . One indulgent , well heeled , acquisiton of things beautiful . 

the other side , a dog that must be capable of work, indispensible , to the livelihood of the master. No leniency or sentiment .

It was and it is a disappearing need . Most at that time and currently are perfectly happy with a hearth and lawn ornament . 

the problem is , like the surgeon who does a little cosmetic surgery . Ah , improvement. But the patient has issues and becomes an addict to "improvement" . The surgeon wrongfully accommodates his patient , self serving interests $$$ , and continues to do surgery well beyond the point to where the person is no longer recognizable .
The point where children will stare and innocently blurt out "what's worng with that person"

That is the point the WGSL's are at -- when foreign (United Kingdom) ban them from show .

The working dog , unsung hero. Often off-the grid - totally anonymous , no titles . A select group .
And yes it is being kept alive . 

it was and it is all about inclusion and exclusion .

the "show lines" have been fierce about exclusion - not just on genetics entering 
but being so cookie cutter on a type and colour that there is an outcry if there is a sable .

to be continued.


----------



## carmspack

continuation 2

it has been often said that there is a great deal of ignorance in this GSD enterprise. 
Sometimes by sheer numbers that crowd, loud and proud , have influence especially on the newcomers who don't have their feet underneath them, haven't done their homework or just want to belong and join the status quo. 
A lot of the guardians who knew the breed and saw the changes, and aren't dropped into the "now" , the new
normal now, are disappearing .
I was , am , extremely fortunate to have counted to fierce ones among my friends - Joe Kuhn and Linda Shaw. 
Some chest thumping troglodyte, sorry trogs , will go on a campaign to diminish the efforts and success of others.
Herd control?
Case in point , since in the previous post we were looking at the show lines excluding , and the working lines
being open to including a particular line as needed and then move on -- as it should be.

this female Chateau von der Mahler-Meister 

wisely and with purpose this female produced Jura (female) KNPV and Sch H and she in turn produced Lubeck (male) KNPV PH MET LOF 432 and he in turn produced Gandalf KNPV MET LOF at under 14 months of age and brother Gideon who is off the screen because he is a working police dog. and progeny contributing to a police breeding program

but this person with figuratively 2 minutes in the GSD "game" needed to offer nonsense .

so - this is looking at the WHOLE breed --- what is going on -- I needed to share this to show how decisons can be influenced. 

back to the long Aly questions -- **************
quote
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
the working line itself is changing . Not to a good place either. there are 3 distinct groups which are breeds unto themselves . American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's.
Aly asked
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean when you say, "American Showlines have not shared genetic material (as a group) since the late 1970's." Do you mean that ASL breeders were breeding, exclusively, to other ASLs? If so, do you think that that was an effort to fix type, as it were? And, if so, how well did they think that 'type' squared with GSLs or WLs? Frankly, to my eye, contemporary ASLs don't. All three look quite different, identifiably GSDs, but still quite different. I assume that they also must have done fairly early on. Is that correct?

there was a commission to have images created , standard ilustrated wihci reflected the standard adopted by the ASL . A standard totally created and divergent from anything that the SV or otherEU countries have . At least the WGSL's can say that there was a master plan to improve the dog.
Norht America was always a dumping ground. There were some nasty , unstable , anti-social gsd that were exported to all to anxious buyers wanting to be members of the GSD club.
I have German Shepherd (GSDCofA) Revies going back to the early 70's so can see changes and promoted dogs through out the decades. 
There were some good American breeding programs . Some good imports. .. and then along comes
Troll a good dog with impressive achievements and you have the beginnings of a new directon.
https://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/tdogs/TrollRichterbach.html 

little new - if any -- outside German blood has been added since.
Every once in a whle you might see an American kennel bring in WGSL . To help the temeprament. ??

I don't understand why the free spirit breeders who distanced themselves from the German lines could not 
say , this is our breed, we satisfy ourselves , our needs, we like this and this is OUR American shepherd dog.
Hypocritical ? 

If you look at that graph which illustrates the genetic island of the WGSL and the working lines , then the ASL's would be an even more distinct island . 

why? Because the WGSL's can and do go back to "other" "show lines" . Distant .

the ASL's tend to spring board off Troll . Very limited.


----------



## carmspack

continued part three ************

this should be a quicky 

Aly's post quote
"Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
...the problem was selection. Inbreeding . The desire to be part of the winner's club .
Yes, a similar thing happened/is happening with IWs and very likely other breeds, as well, given the undue (IMO) emphasis on breeding to a 'winner' and/or backmassing on same. With IWs, the problem is further magnified by the fact that the available gene pool (viz., population of IWs worldwide) is severely limited to begin with. "

I believe you may have ordered Margaret Derry's Bred for Perfection.
You will be shown the folly of breeding selection criteria.
You will be shocked at how minuscule the genetic diversity is .

We had a world renowned dairy operation - a solid jog or whort bicycle ride from my house . 
The land went up for sale for development -- cattle , flushed ova and sperm put on auction.
This made the news , this made the TV . That farm was that respected -- world wide . You had bidders
come in from Japan.

Knowing the family -- I got a lot of breeding talk in --- as I did with the stud books that were opened , have some copies kicking around - for Northern Dancer and the E P Taylor stables.
Any way world wide there are probably ONLY FIVE bulls total which are responsible for producing. they are all
an incestuous mess - and showing the repercussions -- health , vigor, longevity , all reduced dramatically.


----------



## Nigel

Aly said:


> Yes, I understand how registries work, politically and otherwise; that wasn't the basis of my question. In addition to her other comments, Carmen's mention of gene mapping put me in mind of _this study_ demonstrating variance in the genetic underpinnings, so to say, of show, working, and mixed lines:
> 
> https://www.rsv2000.de/en/news/special-articels/breeding/genetische-differenzierung-des-dsh.html
> 
> Aly


This is very interesting, especially when the lines are mixed and how they map near or on the core of working line genetics.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Camspack> " the saddle back comment with the picture of a horse with blanket, rider with good seat
was a pporly veiled flipping the bird."

Flipping the bird? Where does that come from? I said 'Obviosly I like blanket backs'. It was an example. My next picture was Inga with her blanket back. I always thought that she has an overly large saddle mark on her back.

Many posters here on germanshepherds.com, I do feel like are like family, sort of like remote cousins I have never actually met but correspond with. We are dog people and are by nature pack-like. I like it here, obvuously.

So people are saying its not about your personal GSD so don't get defensive and then go one to run down her ancestors People criticise my dogs bloodlines. They insullt my dogs genetics, the very core of her being (although she is intact she will never reproduce). I feel like I am developing my own personal 'bitch stipe'. Its like hearing people say that such and such line of people tend to be weak character, have low average IQs, tend to be involved in crime. How do you like it when you personally know wonderful examples of human beings from that line of people? 

All I did was ask if roach backs were being bred out. Apparently there are some WGSL breeders in the US who are not breeding dogs for shows. This is a good thing. Lets look for kennels in the United States were WGSL puppies are being selected for and bred that are properly built, with strong nerve, are versatile and tend to live long healthy lives.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Cattle genetics, this is what I see on this ranch- for example- How long does a trait tend to persist? 

A very light colored Hereford marked cow for example. She is a pale beige but you can see she still has the Hereford markings (white face, white stripe down the neck, white belly, white legs, white tail switch. She is 7/8th Charlois. (Charlois is a French breed of white cattle). Her great grandmother was a Hereford and the marks persist. Her own calf, sired by a Charolais bull, does not have the markings and is even paler than her dam. It took 5 generations for the trait to go away. 

So if a GSD six generations back was roach backed and then only properly built animals were bred into the line with no inbreeding, how long would the roach back gene persist? Breeders among us please explain, what generations genotype would still influence the present phenotype?


----------



## Nurse Bishop

kimbale said:


> Wait...what? I supported exactly this in my comment about my own WGSL and what I am seeing in the SV shows and trials that I attend. My assertion was that there are very nice WGSL dogs out there with very strong nerve and great drive, dogs that do well in the courage test and IPO ring. My point was that the JUDGES are the ones who are ranking these dogs low and holding up poorer representations of the breed as dogs that we all should aspire to breed to. And this mindset is killing the WGSL bloodlines but creating nervy, weak, over-angulated dogs that don't represent the goal of the breed.
> 
> My point was that there are exceptional WGSL breeders out there who breed for the whole dog (not a ton, but a few), but that their dogs aren't ranked high in shows because they don't have that extreme angulation look that judges have somehow started to favor.
> 
> I love my WGSL, and think he's a great example of the lines. There are a lot of judges who won't agree with me, because he isn't as angulated and doesn't move with his rear to the ground. But, oh well. He's training under a narcotics K9 handler who has seen a ton of dogs fail out of training, and who really really likes what he sees in my dog. That's what's important to me, not what some conformation judge says. And that was my point. There are WGSL dogs doing great things in work, but they won't get VA and won't stand out in the big shows because of what the judges are doing to the breed.
> 
> And, I believe pretty much most people here liked what I had to say and agreed with it. So...not seeing the disconnect.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


It seems that we need a breed a better line of judges


----------



## Sunsilver

> Any way world wide there are probably ONLY FIVE bulls total which are responsible for producing. they are all
> an incestuous mess - and showing the repercussions -- health , vigor, longevity , all reduced dramatically.


Two of my uncles were dairy farmers. One got into it quite a few years before the other (he was older) and had purebred pedigree Holsteins right from the start. The younger brother got into it more gradually. His cows were a mixed bag, and most had no pedigrees. He did mixed farming: selling the cream to a local dairy, and using the skim milk to fatten pigs. When I asked him about reproductive problems, and calves not surviving, he said to me, "Oh my brother has it much worse than I do!" meaning the purebred pedigree stock had a lot more issues.

He eventually bought into a purebred herd, and a farm with a modern pipeline milking system (no more lugging those heavy milkers that hung under the cows!) and began selling whole milk. Would be interesting to ask him about how things went for him then!


----------



## Nurse Bishop

My Jersey cow is the progeny of a working dairy Jersey cow and a cleanup bull. That is, after cows bred by artificial insemination to high producing bulls they might come back into heat, so they are turned in with a Jersey 'cleanup bull'. Daphne is not a high producer. But what would I do with 8 gallons of milk a day? This is a pet cow that as a calf, selected me. As I leaned on the fence veiwing the available heifer calves, a sandpaper-like tongue bagan to lick my leg through the corral fence. Disposition is what she shows strongly, as you can see. Now back to GSDs


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## Thecowboysgirl

I can give an example of a trait being bred out. Many dairy goat herds remove babies from mothers at birth. They prefer does who will drop a kid and walk away and never look back. They actually select for that.

I found that horrifying and sold does who had difficulty kidding or were poor mothers. But people who bought goats from me were by and large also homesteaders, who would not want a doe who could not raise her own kid.

Craziness


----------



## Nurse Bishop

I found this section on the wikipedia site about GSds

Modern breed

The structure of the body of GSD
The modern German Shepherd breed is criticized by some for straying away from Max von Stephanitz's original ideology that German Shepherds should be bred primarily as working dogs and that breeding should be strictly controlled to eliminate defects quickly.[25][26] He believed that, above all else, German Shepherds should be bred for intelligence and working ability.[27]

Controversy
The Kennel Club, in the United Kingdom, is involved in a dispute with German Shepherd breed clubs about the issue of soundness in the show-strain breed.[28][29] The show-strains have been bred with an extremely sloping topline (back) that causes poor gait in the hind legs. Working-pedigree lines, such as those in common use as service dogs, generally retain the traditional straight back of the breed.

The debate was catalyzed when the issue was raised in the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed, which said that critics of the breed describe it as "half dog, half frog". An orthopedic vet remarked on footage of dogs in a show ring that they were "not normal".

The Kennel Club's position is that "this issue of soundness is not a simple difference of opinion, it is the fundamental issue of the breed's essential conformation and movement."[28] The Kennel Club has decided to retrain judges to penalize dogs suffering these problems.[30]

The Kennel Club also recommends testing for haemophilia and hip dysplasia, other common problems with the breed.[31][32]

this is the picture from that part of the discussion. They are refering to the British Kennel Club.


----------



## GypsyGhost

Nurse Bishop said:


> Camspack> " the saddle back comment with the picture of a horse with blanket, rider with good seat
> was a pporly veiled flipping the bird."
> 
> Flipping the bird? Where does that come from? I said 'Obviosly I like blanket backs'. It was an example. My next picture was Inga with her blanket back. I always thought that she has an overly large saddle mark on her back.
> 
> Many posters here on germanshepherds.com, I do feel like are like family, sort of like remote cousins I have never actually met but correspond with. We are dog people and are by nature pack-like. I like it here, obvuously.
> 
> So people are saying its not about your personal GSD so don't get defensive and then go one to run down her ancestors People criticise my dogs bloodlines. They insullt my dogs genetics, the very core of her being (although she is intact she will never reproduce). I feel like I am developing my own personal 'bitch stipe'. Its like hearing people say that such and such line of people tend to be weak character, have low average IQs, tend to be involved in crime. How do you like it when you personally know wonderful examples of human beings from that line of people?
> 
> All I did was ask if roach backs were being bred out. Apparently there are some WGSL breeders in the US who are not breeding dogs for shows. This is a good thing. Lets look for kennels in the United States were WGSL puppies are being selected for and bred that are properly built, with strong nerve, are versatile and tend to live long healthy lives.


I still have no idea where you are seeing an attack on your specific dog’s genetics. Have you even posted a pedigree? How would anyone even know what they were “attacking”? I’ve just seen people remark that Inga seems lovely, but perhaps I’m missing something. I think people have done a pretty darn good job of stating, repeatedly, that what they are knocking is the dogs with weak character and poor conformation being selected as winners in some shows. That does not mean they’re attacking your dog, or WGSL dogs as a whole.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

This is the pictrue on the wikipedia site entitled " German shepherd, working type, shorthair, dam." She has as a back just like Inga, doesn't she? People are (righteously I might add) dissing WGSLines> Recent Show Dog Winners. Thats why I started the thread. Not all WGSLs are horrible examples! One of Ingas GG Grandsires was Zamp von Thermados! It was a long time ago. The roach back was quietly bred out of her line by American breeders who thought this roach was not to standard. But they didn't show the dogs, because they wouldn't have won.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Who are these people judging GSDs in America? We need to toss them out and get some new ones. They are ruining the breed.


----------



## carmspack

Nurse Bishop said:


> This is the pictrue on the wikipedia site entitled " German shepherd, working type, shorthair, dam." She has as a back just like Inga, doesn't she? People are (righteously I might add) dissing WGSLines> Recent Show Dog Winners. Thats why I started the thread. Not all WGSLs are horrible examples! One of Ingas GG Grandsires was Zamp von Thermados! It was a long time ago. The roach back was quietly bred out of her line by American breeders who thought this roach was not to standard. But they didn't show the dogs, because they wouldn't have won.



the image that is given is NOT a sample of good working dog structure.
inadequate angulation is as bad as too much . 

who knows who posted that dog on wikipedia , or what their experience is , or if this is the persons beloved pet.

you have to have an image of an ideal . Examples have already been given
Faust Busecker Schloss 
Bermd / Bodo Lierberg
Marko Cellerland and progeny 

many to be seen in the Linda Shaw book .

Not one dog that she illustrates as ideal looks like that .


----------



## gsdluvr

Here's a much used photo of a famous working dog. He looks good to me. sorry can't upload.

It's a photo of Falk von den Wolfen.


----------



## gsdluvr

Falk von den Wölfen

Got it


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## carmspack

neo grenzlager

Neo vom Grenzlager 

troll v d bosen nachbarschaft 

the topline includes the neck , back of neck , withers , latyback of scapula , the back, the loin, the croup 

don rolandsteich 

Don vom Rolandsteich 

hey , whiy not -- carmspack kilo

Carmspack Kilo 

Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaft


----------



## carmspack

this is a beautiful working conformation

Eros Busecker Schloss Eros vom Busecker Schloß 


Faust Busecker Schloss used before as an example

any one who is seriously studying GSD should study Alfred Hahn , and study the
pedigrees

I don't know how to get the two images side by side - meaning the wikipedia "ideal" posted by
Nurse Bishop and an image of Eros .

if someone can ?


----------



## Nurse Bishop

So you don't like the picture. What the wikipedia article says about problems with the breed still stands.

" Modern breed

The structure of the body of GSD
The modern German Shepherd breed is criticized by some for straying away from Max von Stephanitz's original ideology that German Shepherds should be bred primarily as working dogs and that breeding should be strictly controlled to eliminate defects quickly.[25][26] He believed that, above all else, German Shepherds should be bred for intelligence and working ability.[27]

Controversy
The Kennel Club, in the United Kingdom, is involved in a dispute with German Shepherd breed clubs about the issue of soundness in the show-strain breed.[28][29] The show-strains have been bred with an extremely sloping topline (back) that causes poor gait in the hind legs. Working-pedigree lines, such as those in common use as service dogs, generally retain the traditional straight back of the breed.

The debate was catalyzed when the issue was raised in the BBC documentary, Pedigree Dogs Exposed, which said that critics of the breed describe it as "half dog, half frog". An orthopedic vet remarked on footage of dogs in a show ring that they were "not normal".

The Kennel Club's position is that "this issue of soundness is not a simple difference of opinion, it is the fundamental issue of the breed's essential conformation and movement."[28] The Kennel Club has decided to retrain judges to penalize dogs suffering these problems.[30]

The Kennel Club also recommends testing for haemophilia and hip dysplasia, other common problems with the breed.[31][32]

(this was the picture from that part of the discussion). The article is refering to the British Kennel Club.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

One of WGSL Ingas great great grandsires was none other than Zamp von Thermados, the horrible example of the roach back, (although Linda Shaw shows him as having a beautiful ideal head). That means Inga is 1/32nd from Zamp von Thermados. Breeders of German Shepherd dogs here I ask you, what is the percentage of influence of a single dog 6 generations back?


----------



## carmspack

that is correct . 
I don't like the image that they chose to represent an ideal or even as an average of what a working line dog
should or does look like.

You can not teach properly with more flawed information.

you asked does this working dog representative resemble "my own" meaning your dog Inga .

look at the examples posted that are working line with beautiful correct top lines.


----------



## Sabis mom

Nurse Bishop said:


> One of WGSL Ingas great great grandsires was none other than Zamp von Thermados, the horrible example of the roach back, (although Linda Shaw shows him as having a beautiful ideal head). That means Inga is 1/32nd from Zamp von Thermados. Breeders of German Shepherd dogs here I ask you, what is the percentage of influence of a single dog 6 generations back?


Since you are a horse woman I will put this to you, Doc Bar stamped that stunning head on horses several generations forward. To this day most folks knowledgeable about horses can pinpoint animals from his line.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

One of Ingas Great Great Grandsires is none other than Zamp von Thermados, roach backed, although Linda Shaw shows him as an exapmple of having the ideal masculine head. That means Inga is 1/32 Zamp von Thermados. Professional GSD breeders here I ask you, what is the influence of a dog six generations back?


----------



## Nurse Bishop

carmspack said:


> that is correct .
> I don't like the image that they chose to represent an ideal or even as an average of what a working line dog
> should or does look like.
> 
> You can not teach properly with more flawed information.
> 
> you asked does this working dog representative resemble "my own" meaning your dog Inga .
> 
> look at the examples posted that are working line with beautiful correct top lines.


The wikipedia article section I indexed is refering to the top line, not the entire conformation. There is the first example picturing a red and black roached back male with a downward sloping topline. The other picture identified as an example of a working line bitch- yes,I thought that too. An example from whom? In what year? Someones pet? However, the discussion was only about the top line. She is just standing there, not stacked. I don't see a roach back. A lot of the pictures of members WGSL dogs in this thread look similar. They are peoples dogs they proudly show as examples of not having a roach back. Inga doesn't have a roach back either, just like the bitch in the picture.

This thread I started only concerns the unfortunate topline that has been awarded by judges and is degrading the very structure of the breed in some lines. The wikipedia article mentions that the British Kennel Club is actually re educating their judges.


----------



## Kazel

Nurse Bishop said:


> One of Ingas Great Great Grandsires is none other than Zamp von Thermados, roach backed, although Linda Shaw shows him as an exapmple of having the ideal masculine head. That means Inga is 1/32 Zamp von Thermados. Professional GSD breeders here I ask you, what is the influence of a dog six generations back?


That could be hard to say because it would depend on what she inherited from him and what was passed on through the generations. Also if any of her other ancestors are related to him there is more possible genetic material coming from him from other sources. Genetics aren't as simple as fractions because what is inherited and expressed is going to vary by what breeders are selecting for and by chance. Great great etc. grandchildren and such could be closer genetically to an ancestor than say sons or daughters based on breeding(this would be extreme inbreeding) done afterwards. But it also depends on the roll of the dice and what exact genes they are inheriting from that individual. Neither of my parents have blue eyes but I do because of recessive traits passed on from my grandparents.


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## Nurse Bishop

Sabis mom said:


> Since you are a horse woman I will put this to you, Doc Bar stamped that stunning head on horses several generations forward. To this day most folks knowledgeable about horses can pinpoint animals from his line.


Several generations forward? How many? What lines? How much inbreeding? Appendix Quarter horses? Foundation Quarter horses? You must realize people have been breeding the work horse head out of quarter horses for quite some time and the mare is considered by many to be 70% influence on the colt. 

Back to canines- look at the percentage influence six generations back. https://www.dogenes.com/essays/relation.html
According to this Inga has 6.25%chance of influence from Zamp vom Thermados and 94.75 % from others, not including the crap shoot rolls of the genetic dice.

>Percent Contribution
If sufficient data is available, one way of determining the significance of an ancestor is to calculate his percent contribution to the current dogs. The % contribution (aka percentage of blood) is determined by the way genes are passed from the parents to the progeny. An individual inherits one set of chromosomes, and the genes they carry, from his or her sire and a second, homologous (equivalent) set from the dam. Thus, each parent makes a 50% contribution. As the parents in any generation always contribute 50% of their genes to their progeny, it seems reasonable to expect that 25% will come from each grandparent, 12.5% from each great-grandparent, and so on. However, once we are past the parents, we are dealing in probabilities, not certainties. This is not like mixing paint! When dad passes you one set of his chromosomes, they will include a selection of ones inherited from both his parents, but there is no guarantee that the selection will be exactly equal. There is even a small chance (very small) that he will pass on those from only one of his parents.


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## Nurse Bishop

-- it continues--
By the time we get back 10 generations, the contribution from each of the 1024 ancestors would, in theory, amount to slightly less than 0.1%. However, in the pedigree of the average purebred dog, there are seldom more than 100-200 different names and some appear 50 times or more. These are the significant ancestors that make the major genetic contributions.

If you have a pedigree, you can calculate % contribution of any repeats simply by multiplying the number of times each ancestor appears in any generation by the appropriate percentage for that generation and then add together all of the calculated percentage of contributions from each generation. The table listed below shows the percentage of blood inherited from each ancestor at the given generation levels. Generation "1" is the parents.

Genetic Contribution of Ancestors by percentage
Generation-[one-50% [two-25% [three-12.5% [four-6.25% [five-3.125 [6-1.56 [seven-0.781% [eight0.391 [nine-0.195


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## Sabis mom

Nurse Bishop said:


> Several generations forward? How many? What lines? How much inbreeding? Appendix Quarter horses? Foundation Quarter horses? You must realize people have been breeding the work horse head out of quarter horses for quite some time and the mare is considered by many to be 70% influence on the colt.
> 
> Back to canines- look at the percentage influence six generations back. https://www.dogenes.com/essays/relation.html


Arko Honest was my dogs great grandsire, but if you listen to those who saw him in action my dog was much more like him then either of his parents. Since I personally put hands on his parents and maternal grandparents I can attest that the only thing he took from that side was his color. And since his sire was a big doofus I can adamantly state that his work ability, drive, bite and temperament came from elsewhere in the pedigree. 
If you look at some of the breeders on here, I know the Wolfstraum dogs spring to mind, it is not uncommon for genetics to jump out multiple generations forward. I think it was Lee who was speaking recently about a particular pup that was a carbon copy of a grandparent. Blackthorn owners are forever discussing this as well. And Carmspack had mentioned not long ago a pup that she had or was looking at that was a copy of a great something, generations back.

Anytime selective breeding has "fixed" the genetics in place they will continue to pop up, it's how species evolved.


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## Nurse Bishop

Ingas titled schutzhunds don't really start up until the grandparents, then its almost nothing but SchtHs. Probably worthless, but another thing, you can see how good their hips and elbows were.


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## Nurse Bishop

Yes grandparents can have a lot to do with the characteristics of animals in my observation. After that, not so much. I have extensively bred lab rats (for intelligence), show chickens, horses and cattle. But not dogs. How long does it take to breed out the roach back trait if all straight back dogs are used and no line or inbreeding. How many generations?


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## cliffson1

Kazel said:


> That could be hard to say because it would depend on what she inherited from him and what was passed on through the generations. Also if any of her other ancestors are related to him there is more possible genetic material coming from him from other sources. Genetics aren't as simple as fractions because what is inherited and expressed is going to vary by what breeders are selecting for and by chance. Great great etc. grandchildren and such could be closer genetically to an ancestor than say sons or daughters based on breeding(this would be extreme inbreeding) done afterwards. But it also depends on the roll of the dice and what exact genes they are inheriting from that individual. Neither of my parents have blue eyes but I do because of recessive traits passed on from my grandparents.


Yes, breeding is not about simple fractions. Take Zamp or any dog, what is the linebreeding that makes up Zamp? Suppose Zamp’s mother or father is linebred 4-4,4-4 on dog X and the dog they breed Zamp to is also linebred extensively on “ X” or even on both parents of Zamp....then it’s easy to see that the effect of “Zamp” is going to be much more extensive than the simple fraction of say 1/32. 
So the saturation of a pedigree is much more potent than a singular dog, no matter how strong the dog in forecasting. Of course with extreme saturation comes often increases in health and mental maladies....but that’s not an opinion it’s the reason for some of our incest laws in people. So if the “ line” is fairly open with genetic diversity....no problem, but if the saturation of the line get too strong, then you will see increased issues in health and mental health. It is what it is, not because Cliff says this but because this has been proven over generations of certain breeds. Remember, the German Shepherd in its creation is a result of open breeding of 4 different type Herding/Working dogs.....it was never meant to be bred for singular traits except temperament....but once you load up too much in any one direction, temperament and health will suffer. There are so many people that don’t understand the history or core breeding truths about this breed. But the ones that dog have very high percent of good representatives of the breed and the one that don’t will have ups and downs in breeding because Luck always has to be factored in though it can be minimized by knowledge.


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## carmspack

Nurse Bishop said:


> The wikipedia article section I indexed irefering to the top line, not the entire conformation. There is the first example picturins g a red and black roached back male with a downward sloping topline. The other picture identified as an example of a working line bitch- yes,I thought that too. An example from whom? In what year? Someones pet? However, the discussion was only about the top line. She is just standing there, not stacked. I don't see a roach back. A lot of the pictures of members WGSL dogs in this thread look similar. They are peoples dogs they proudly show as examples of not having a roach back. Inga doesn't have a roach back either, just like the bitch in the picture.
> 
> This thread I started only concerns the unfortunate topline that has been awarded by judges and is degrading the very structure of the breed in some lines. The wikipedia article mentions that the British Kennel Club is actually re educating their judges.


and

This is the pictrue on the wikipedia site entitled " German shepherd, working type, shorthair, dam." She has as a back just like Inga, doesn't she? People are (righteously I might add) dissing WGSLines> Recent Show Dog Winners. Thats why I started the thread. Not all WGSLs are horrible examples! One of Ingas GG Grandsires was Zamp von Thermados! It was a long time ago. The roach back was quietly bred out of her line by American breeders who thought this roach was not to standard. But they didn't show the dogs, because they wouldn't have won.
Attached Images

I have a back bone so will weather what ever follows - 

Nurse Bishop you have to take pets and your Inga out of the discussion.

In respect to the wikipedia picture of the working lined example you said about Inga " She has as a back just like Inga, doesn't she?"

well - 

and you are hurt because that dog is criticized . It is not a good example of a working dog. The back is flat. There is no wither , there is no croup
a good topline , a good back is not a flat table top.

you said "refering to the top line, not the entire conformation. "

not even remotely possible -- every budding archeologist knows that the back , the spine offers significant clues as to the weignt bearing, movement, muscle attachments etc.

so with the dog . the topline is the matrix for muscle attachment , energy efficiency - forwrd propulsion or dissipated and wasted . Lots of illustrations of that in the Linda Shaw book.

if you want to isolate a top line then look at the beauty of Eros and Faust Busecker Schloss.

I don't want this valuable thread closed . There is much more to offer . If you criticize a flawed model (roach back) you have to be able to offer a replacement and it has to work.


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## Sabis mom

A huge number of breeders import stock from "titled" parents and then trade on that. The parents are generally not worked or titled so the breeders know nothing about the dogs. Since titles are only as meaningful as the work to get them and we know that in many places titles are essentially bought, they may be really worthwhile or not worth the paper. Without seeing the dogs themselves, it's tough to say.


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## Nurse Bishop

"Take Inga and pets out of the picture?" Inga is a ranch dog. She 'works' on a 1000+ acre cattle ranch.

Here is another interesting discussion board I joined
https://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/f16/belgian-malinois-8976/

and another seems like more for beginners
https://www.forum.breedia.com/dogs/belgian-shepherd-dog-malinois/

then, theres this
***removed by moderator***

and this although they can be pretty rough on beginners
http://leerburg.com/webboard/forum.php

Well, I guess Inga and Rango (horse) and I will now go out and check the back quarter section.


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## carmspack

you can not compare Belgian Malinois with german shepherds 

the other site? 

on this very thread you have had good information and excellent information from Linda Shaw book.

the comparison would be to ask and get information about training from those that have reached the highest levels to opinion and suggestion from the folks hanging around outseide the dog park.

I too have horses. Rocky Mountain / Mountain Pleasure - . I am used to endurance rides - 35 miles and more at a go. The rocking chair glide and ground eating stride made it a real pleasure.

Saw a programme the other night about the Yellowstone Wolves -- 30 to 40 miles a day in winter to find food.

that is your super efficient movement . That is why in the Shaw books she uses that natural canid , without influence by humans as a template for the endurance GSD .


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## LeoRose

What does the suitability of a Malinois as a PPD have to do with the conformation and temperament of a showline GSD? Honestly, the most protective dog I ever had was a Doberman cross who was _extremely _people friendly. The one time she went into "protection mode" was absolutely scary, because she didn't bark, growl, or even raise her hackles. But if that guy had made one wrong move, I don't think I could have held her back.


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## Nurse Bishop

I have enduranced raced Arabians. 50 miles is as far as I have gone with this stallion. I'd like to do the Tevis Cup but I don't think he has it in him to do 100 miles. In fact I know he doesn't. I have had 5 gaited Saddlebreds, both mares, you could carry a plate of champagne glasses at the singlefoot. And the greatest of all my horses, the first, a half quarter half thorobred mare. Never boarded any horses, I kept them, bred them and even learned to shoe them. 

Inga gets overheated on rides when it is hot. By that I mean, 90 and 100s degrees. It is 98 now thats why I we are still in the house. That is a drawback to her. It seems like the GSD is a dog of the climate of northern Europe. Inga does better in the cool Oregon mountains, can go all day with the horses and she guards me at night. The sighthounds were not like that, they were not protective. 

When Inga is old I do not have much confidence I will ever find another like her. The breed is going downhill. So I will look to another breed, the Malionois. A neighboring horse ranch has a Mal and I have talked with them and met this dog on the road when they ride their horses. Since Mals have not become popular it seems like they are generally more sound. 

Sometimes a forum becomes like Aella's Wolf Pit. So I look for other places to discusss dogs. Heres another. ***removed by moderator***


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## Nurse Bishop

Hey, 'czech' this one out  ***removed by moderator***


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## Sabis mom

LeoRose said:


> What does the suitability of a Malinois as a PPD have to do with the conformation and temperament of a showline GSD? Honestly, the most protective dog I ever had was a Doberman cross who was _extremely _people friendly. *The one time she went into "protection mode" was absolutely scary, because she didn't bark, growl, or even raise her hackles. But if that guy had made one wrong move, I don't think I could have held her back*.


Totally agree! You want to see frightening protective, make a Great Dane angry! I've stood down a lot of dogs, would not want to face that, and she loved everyone!


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## GypsyGhost

Moderator warning... please refrain from linking to other GSD forums as it is against forum rules. Next time, official warnings will be issued.


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## GypsyGhost

Nurse Bishop, someone taking issue with a dog or two in your dog’s pedigree is not a slam on your dog. Any person’s dog can have less than ideal conformation, even if the parents were great. That doesn’t mean people think your dog is garbage. It’s an objective view of what the breed SHOULD be. Should you (general you) be looking for breeders who try to produce a correct (in both temperament and structure) GSD? I think we all should. Will there be dogs, even from great breeders doing things the “right” way, that are not entirely correct? Of course there will be. It doesn’t mean those dogs cannot work, or cannot be wonderful non-breeding companions. Each of my dogs have their faults. Each of my dogs have a dog or two in their pedigree that many people do not like. If someone tells me that they don’t like a dog in one of their pedigrees, I do not assume it means they think my dogs are bad dogs. It’s just information. It’s something to look further into, especially for those that breed. 

This is why people have a difficult time sharing their opinions or observations about dogs and pedigrees, which makes it all the more difficult for people to get information when they are researching dogs. The fear of someone being offended prevents a lot of knowledge from being spread.


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## Thecowboysgirl

cliffson1 said:


> Kazel said:
> 
> 
> 
> That could be hard to say because it would depend on what she inherited from him and what was passed on through the generations. Also if any of her other ancestors are related to him there is more possible genetic material coming from him from other sources. Genetics aren't as simple as fractions because what is inherited and expressed is going to vary by what breeders are selecting for and by chance. Great great etc. grandchildren and such could be closer genetically to an ancestor than say sons or daughters based on breeding(this would be extreme inbreeding) done afterwards. But it also depends on the roll of the dice and what exact genes they are inheriting from that individual. Neither of my parents have blue eyes but I do because of recessive traits passed on from my grandparents.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, breeding is not about simple fractions. Take Zamp or any dog, what is the linebreeding that makes up Zamp? Suppose Zamp’s mother or father is linebred 4-4,4-4 on dog X and the dog they breed Zamp to is also linebred extensively on “ X” or even on both parents of Zamp....then it’s easy to see that the effect of “Zamp” is going to be much more extensive than the simple fraction of say 1/32.
> So the saturation of a pedigree is much more potent than a singular dog, no matter how strong the dog in forecasting. Of course with extreme saturation comes often increases in health and mental maladies....but that’s not an opinion it’s the reason for some of our incest laws in people. So if the “ line” is fairly open with genetic diversity....no problem, but if the saturation of the line get too strong, then you will see increased issues in health and mental health. It is what it is, not because Cliff says this but because this has been proven over generations of certain breeds. Remember, the German Shepherd in its creation is a result of open breeding of 4 different type Herding/Working dogs.....it was never meant to be bred for singular traits except temperament....but once you load up too much in any one direction, temperament and health will suffer. There are so many people that don’t understand the history or core breeding truths about this breed. But the ones that dog have very high percent of good representatives of the breed and the one that don’t will have ups and downs in breeding because Luck always has to be factored in though it can be minimized by knowledge.
Click to expand...

And might the opposite be true, if you crossed two of these lines that have been separated for a long time might get hybrid vigor?

I realize there are considerations about temperament and as I understand it crossing too much drive with not enough nerve and getting for lack of a better term a drivey nerve bag.

But mainly am curious about hybrid vigor for health aside from the mental piece


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## GypsyGhost

Thecowboysgirl said:


> And might the opposite be true, if you crossed two of these lines that have been separated for a long time might get hybrid vigor?
> 
> I realize there are considerations about temperament and as I understand it crossing too much drive with not enough nerve and getting for lack of a better term a drivey nerve bag.
> 
> But mainly am curious about hybrid vigor for health aside from the mental piece


I obviously cannot speak to how Cliff feels about this, but as far as I have read, hybrid vigor within the same species is a myth. For a long time, people were insisting mutts and crosses were healthier than purebred dogs, but it is simply not true. Careful health screening and knowing what health issues are carried within specific lines would be how you create healthier dogs. Crossing lines carefully COULD open up the gene pool a little, for the lines that have a ton of backmassing/linebreeding.


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## LeoRose

GypsyGhost said:


> I obviously cannot speak to how Cliff feels about this, but as far as I have read, hybrid vigor within the same species is a myth. For a long time, people were insisting mutts and crosses were healthier than purebred dogs, but it is simply not true. Careful health screening and knowing what health issues are carried within specific lines would be how you create healthier dogs. Crossing lines carefully COULD open up the gene pool a little, for the lines that have a ton of backmassing/linebreeding.


Basenji come to mind. The breed as a whole had a serious health issue, and to help rectify it, the studbook was reopened so that dogs imported directly from the African bush could be registered. Those dogs were all clear for the problem, and in just a few generations there were a _lot_ more dogs who were also clear. 

Dalmatians are another breed who have benifited greatly from a single outcross to another breed, with the LUA dogs being added into the general gene pool.

Conformation is trickier than traits carried on a single gene, though.


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## GypsyGhost

LeoRose said:


> Basenji come to mind. The breed as a whole had a serious health issue, and to help rectify it, the studbook was reopened so that dogs imported directly from the African bush could be registered. Those dogs were all clear for the problem, and in just a few generations there were a _lot_ more dogs who were also clear.
> 
> Dalmatians are another breed who have benifited greatly from a single outcross to another breed, with the LUA dogs being added into the general gene pool.
> 
> Conformation is trickier than traits carried on a single gene, though.


Yep. I know there is an effort being made right now with flat coated retrievers, too, to cross some new blood into the lines prevalent in North America. They aren’t outcrossing to other breeds, but to other, healthier lines within the breed. Whether an outcross (be it with lines within the same breed, or outcrossing to another breed entirely) is successful in injecting better health depends wholly on how healthy the dogs being crossed are, and how healthy the generations behind those dogs are. But those crosses do not technically fall under the hybrid vigor umbrella because they are the same species. I think it takes a lot more planning, as well as a higher understanding of genetics, with an outcross. You may be breeding something out, but you have to be careful what you are breeding _in._


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## Nurse Bishop

When you cross the the two subspecies of the Bovidae (cattle) for instance, a long eared, humpy, baggy skinned Brahman (bos indicus) with a rectangular tight skinned European breed (bos taurus) you get a great F1 with a lot of hybrid vigor. They do well in warm humid climates climates in the US where European breeds are miserable in the summer and not so well in the north. Interestingly, the average butterfat content of bos indicus is higher than the Jersey, although I would not want to try to milk one. On this ranch we raise Beefmasters. They have a kind of built in heterosis from the bos indicus, bos taurus cross. The Beefmaster Breed began in 1931 when Tom Lasater, in the harsh brush country of south Texas, used Hereford, Shorthorn and Bos Indicus cattle in a three way cross to create the breed. Shorthorn was to increase the milk supply for growing calves, bos indicus for the hybrid heterosis and to stand the heat. I don't know what this has to do with GSD breeding. People cross cattle and bison too but Beefalos are not much of an improvement.


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## Nurse Bishop

Crossing WL and SL is not a good idea we know but what about crossing WL that were isolated in diferent parts of the world? Is such a thing even posible these days?


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## Ken Clean-Air System

Nurse Bishop said:


> Crossing WL and SL is not a good idea we know but what about crossing WL that were isolated in diferent parts of the world? Is such a thing even posible these days?


Just a few pages back Carmen gave an example of a WGSL/WL cross that produced several generations of Law Enforcement K9s.



carmspack said:


> continuation 2
> Case in point , since in the previous post we were looking at the show lines excluding , and the working lines
> being open to including a particular line as needed and then move on -- as it should be.
> 
> this female Chateau von der Mahler-Meister
> 
> wisely and with purpose this female produced Jura (female) KNPV and Sch H and she in turn produced Lubeck (male) KNPV PH MET LOF 432 and he in turn produced Gandalf KNPV MET LOF at under 14 months of age and brother Gideon who is off the screen because he is a working police dog. and progeny contributing to a police breeding program


The dog linked is a pretty typical WGSL pedigree, linebred on Jeck vom Noricum (Zamp von Thermodos is linebred 5-4 on Jeck, by the way). She was outcrossed with WGWL sire and produced working police dogs .... here's one of the progeny that Carmen mentioned: Jura von der Mahler-Meister . 

Outcrosses between show and working lines are certainly possible, they happen, and they can be successful in the hands of a knowledgeable breeder.


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## Jax08

Nurse Bishop said:


> Crossing WL and SL is not a good idea we know but what about crossing WL that were isolated in diferent parts of the world? Is such a thing even posible these days?


You mean like when the wall came down and DDR and Czech lines were crossed with WG?

What part of the world is so isolated the dogs are not accessible?


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## cliffson1

GypsyGhost said:


> I obviously cannot speak to how Cliff feels about this, but as far as I have read, hybrid vigor within the same species is a myth. For a long time, people were insisting mutts and crosses were healthier than purebred dogs, but it is simply not true. Careful health screening and knowing what health issues are carried within specific lines would be how you create healthier dogs. Crossing lines carefully COULD open up the gene pool a little, for the lines that have a ton of backmassing/linebreeding.


Gypsy Ghost you are correct. FIRST, you must assess what is the current state of the genetics( pedigree) before you start applying breeding concepts. I would approach breeding a highly inbred or saturated linebred dog differently that an outcrossed dog.


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## cliffson1

Nurse Bishop said:


> Crossing WL and SL is not a good idea we know but what about crossing WL that were isolated in diferent parts of the world? Is such a thing even posible these days?


Czech lines and German working lines were basically outcrosses 2o years ago. Since then they have been merged into some outstanding working and sport dogs in enough instances for it to be considered an evolving asset to the breed.


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## carmspack

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> Just a few pages back Carmen gave an example of a WGSL/WL cross that produced several generations of Law Enforcement K9s.
> 
> 
> 
> The dog linked is a pretty typical WGSL pedigree, linebred on Jeck vom Noricum (Zamp von Thermodos is linebred 5-4 on Jeck, by the way). She was outcrossed with WGWL sire and produced working police dogs .... here's one of the progeny that Carmen mentioned: Jura von der Mahler-Meister .
> 
> Outcrosses between show and working lines are certainly possible, they happen, and they can be successful in the hands of a knowledgeable breeder.



hold on -- dying to get in this conversation - need for find time - gasp

it had nothing to do with any thoughts to outcrossing !!!


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## carmspack

Jax08 said:


> You mean like when the wall came down and DDR and Czech lines were crossed with WG?
> 
> What part of the world is so isolated the dogs are not accessible?


answer --- the United Kingdom -- until the chunnel connected the island nation to the continent .

that too was a distinct type - looks , essence and genetics.


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## carmspack

cliffson1 said:


> Czech lines and German working lines were basically outcrosses 2o years ago. Since then they have been merged into some outstanding working and sport dogs in enough instances for it to be considered an evolving asset to the breed.


Czech gsd were acquired pre-war to meet certain needs. They were bought en masse and then sorted out . Culling .

the group they chose more or less was biased towards Thuringian lines .

the best lines will have balance and they will have Bernd Lierberg in the background .
Pohranicni Straze made excellent use . 
It is those lines which appreciated Bernd that blend so nicely with the WGworking lines.


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## Rana

Steve Strom said:


> Different reasons for different dogs to silent guard, but one thing it ain't is new or necessarily wrong at all.


In PSA - silent guard is definitely not considered a fault. Jerry Bradshaw - founder of the sport actually prefers it. I believe as Steve mentions - there are dogs with a silent guard that can be quite unnerving than a dog doing a barking guard. Then again I have seen dogs that have a scary bark and guard and dogs that are going through the motion. I guess to each his/her own so long as the "guard" is really being done as opposed to just waiting for a bite.

I am sure others with more experience will be more qualified to answer.


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## Sunsilver

I've watched a lot of Sieger show videos in the last 12 years, and this was the first time I've seen the silent guard. (Gary v. Hunegrab). Sorry, didn't realize it was something that was allowed. To me, he looks like he's just waiting for his handler to come and get him.


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## lhczth

This is how it should look. Scroll down to the video from the 2017 WUSV. 

https://workinggermanshepherd.wordpress.com/2017/11/21/gazze-von-der-kleinen-birke/


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## lhczth

I hate the silent guard because most dogs lack the power to do it right. I like to see a dog, like I posted above, that is very clear with correct balanced drives that can go from strong fight to strong active guarding.


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## Sunsilver

Okay for those of you who might be confused by this, the dog does a very active bark and hold when he first finds the decoy in the blind. The silent guard comes after that, when his handler puts him in a down after he tells the decoy to step out of the blind. You can see how tense and engaged the dog is, just waiting for the decoy to move.


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## Steve Strom

Sunsilver said:


> Okay for those of you who might be confused by this, the dog does a very active bark and hold when he first finds the decoy in the blind. The silent guard comes after that, when his handler puts him in a down after he tells the decoy to step out of the blind. You can see how tense and engaged the dog is, just waiting for the decoy to move.


You're almost there. Getting closer all the time. Lol.


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## lhczth

Sunsilver said:


> Okay for those of you who might be confused by this, the dog does a very active bark and hold when he first finds the decoy in the blind. The silent guard comes after that, when his handler puts him in a down after he tells the decoy to step out of the blind. You can see how tense and engaged the dog is, just waiting for the decoy to move.



What dog?


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## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> What dog?


The one you posted.


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## lhczth

He does not do a silent guard.  That was why I was confused.


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## Steve Strom

Half points for tense and engaged ?


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## CometDog

Sunsilver said:


> I've watched a lot of Sieger show videos in the last 12 years, and this was the first time I've seen the silent guard. (Gary v. Hunegrab). Sorry, didn't realize it was something that was allowed. To me, he looks like he's just waiting for his handler to come and get him.


Are you watcher the current show going on now?


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## Sunsilver

Lisa, I was referring to when he's waiting for the escape bite. Wouldn't you call that a silent guard?


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## Sunsilver

Arrgg...Okay, let's take a step back here, so I can explain what I was thinking:



> This is how it should look. Scroll down to the video from the 2017 WUSV.
> 
> https://workinggermanshepherd.wordpr...kleinen-birke/
> 
> I hate the silent guard because most dogs lack the power to do it right. I like to see a dog, like I posted above, that is very clear with correct balanced drives that can go from strong fight to strong active guarding.


I read those two posts, and to me, they seemed to say, 'here's a dog doing the silent guard correctly'. I watched the video, and thought "What the heck is she talking about?"

Then I watched the whole routine, and thought, "Wait, I guess she's talking about when the dog is waiting for the decoy to run for the escape bite. Yeah, guess that must be it...though I've never thought of the dog doing a silent guard while waiting for the escape bite."

And no, I'm not watching the videos from this year's Sieger show. I'm busy training my dog for her IPO1.


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## Jax08

:gonefishing: opcorn:


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## Pytheis

It's okay, @Sunsilver. I thought Lisa was giving an example of a proper silent guard as well. Does anyone have a video of a proper silent guard? I'm curious now.


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## Shepdad

2018 VA https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=WmhUyFoSQOY
Are things getting a little better?


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## huntergreen

Video not working.


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## Nigel

Video works for me, nice looking Willy!


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## tim_s_adams

Taken from The Rules ? The Schutzhund Trainers League

"After the out and during the “Hold at Bay,” the dog should remain with the helper and watch him closely. If the dog leaves the helper or does not watch him closely, he cannot receive the Pronounced rating."

Silent guarding is staying with, but not barking at the helper after the out, before the helper attacks again. Nothing in the rules that suggest barking at this point in the routine is good or bad or required or not... In the blind, the dog must bark and hold. 

I'm a little bit confused as to why no one that actually knows what silent guarding is all about has not already just explained it clearly....

Sorry if I broke some unspoken rule by actually offering an explanation...as a complete outsider, who does not compete in any dog sports whatsoever...

SunSilver, their is a really helpful discussion of the pros and cons of a silent guard on the PDB site!


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## lhczth

A judge once said that what he wants to see in a silent guard is a dog staring intently, every muscle tense ready to engage at the slightest hint of an attack. A dog just sitting on its butt staring is not doing a correct silent guard.


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## Katsugsd

lhczth said:


> A judge once said that what he wants to see in a silent guard is a dog staring intently, every muscle tense ready to engage at the slightest hint of an attack. A dog just sitting on its butt staring is not doing a correct silent guard.


This is what I imagined when I think of "silent guard." 


Thank you @tim_s_adams for the quote and link. I wasn't sure if what I thought was a silent guard was a silent guard. I've never seen it.


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## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> A judge once said that what he wants to see in a silent guard is a dog staring intently, every muscle tense ready to engage at the slightest hint of an attack. A dog just sitting on its butt staring is not doing a correct silent guard.


I think in general, they have to be thinking fight after the out. A dog with a little edge to his protection so he can have that mind set with a passive helper.


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## GatorDog

This dog always showed a very intense silent guard IMO


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## lhczth

GatorDog said:


> This dog always showed a very intense silent guard IMO



Frank is very picky about the silent guard and what he wants to see.


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## Ken Clean-Air System

How did a thread about WGSL conformation morph into a discussion about silent guard, lol ... still educational though! 

Here's a very famous dog in probably not his best performance, lol, with an interesting silent guard .... not sure what to make of this one, but I am admittedly a complete novice when it comes to IPO.


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## Jax08

If you have to go down, that's the way to go! 

I don't think that was so much a silent guard as it was young dog confusion. He was only 3 in that video.


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## Ken Clean-Air System

Could be, I would be interested to see if he still used a silent guard later in his life, but wasn't able to find any other videos of him unfortunately.


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## tim_s_adams

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> How did a thread about WGSL conformation morph into a discussion about silent guard, lol ... still educational though!
> 
> Here's a very famous dog in probably not his best performance, lol, with an interesting silent guard .... not sure what to make of this one, but I am admittedly a complete novice when it comes to IPO.
> 
> https://youtu.be/RPnbJJgK-no


I'm curious, did he pass in this event?


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## Ken Clean-Air System

No, disqualified where the video ends.


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## Jax08

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm curious, did he pass in this event?



No. He didn't out. That's a DQ. But he sure went down fighting.


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## Jax08

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> Could be, I would be interested to see if he still used a silent guard later in his life, but wasn't able to find any other videos of him unfortunately.


Maybe that is what he was trained to do. Here's a long bite


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## Ken Clean-Air System

Interesting... Wonder if it was to reign him in a bit or something. In the first video it looks like he not only won't out, but he actually anticipates the helpers second attack... Like he just can't wait to bite again, lol.


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## Jax08

Could just be the way they did it in 1994. Lisa might be able to give insight on that.

He wasn't done fighting. <3


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## lhczth

The out/down was often used for control with a dog that had an issue staying clean. I haven't seen a dog doing this in a long time.


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## Steve Strom

One of the next videos after Yoschy is this one of Quardes:





Its hard sometimes to see intensity in videos, but look at the out after the escape bite. I think part of a strong silent guard is the way the out is very sharp off the sleeve. They snap off it and from this angle you can see the way he's a little coiled, really ready to strike.


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## tim_s_adams

That was an impressive performance! Definitely a convincing silent guard!


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## Kendall’s Dad

Looking at these videos of these GSD my question is why are these people in there everyday cloths & track suits & sweat pants. You don’t see people here dressed like that in CKC & AKC dog shows.


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## GypsyGhost

Kendallâ€™s Dad said:


> Looking at these videos of these GSD my question is why are these people in there everyday cloths & track suits & sweat pants. You don’t see people here dressed like that in CKC & AKC dog shows.


I don’t know that it would be a smart idea to try to do bitework or tracking in dressy clothes and non-athletic shoes.


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## Jax08

Kendallâ€™s Dad said:


> Looking at these videos of these GSD my question is why are these people in there everyday cloths & track suits & sweat pants. You don’t see people here dressed like that in CKC & AKC dog shows.


:rofl:

That....THAT....is your take away from this whole conversation?


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## WateryTart

Kendallâ€™s Dad said:


> Looking at these videos of these GSD my question is why are these people in there everyday cloths & track suits & sweat pants. You don’t see people here dressed like that in CKC & AKC dog shows.


The activities are very different. A convention of more or less business or business casual wear makes a certain amount of sense in a sport that's so largely about visual presentation. It's physically taxing for the handler with a breed like the German Shepherd (even with tiny puppies, I have gotten a workout handling, and I spent handling classes with my adult dog sprinting just to get her up to a full trot), but in a different way from IPO. Track suits and comfortable street clothes are eminently practical for IPO handlers and helpers.

You'd be scandalized to see what I wear to trial my dog... :grin2:


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## Jax08

I don't think it had anything to do with practicality. Plain and simple....IPO is about the dog. Not about the fashion of the handler. Totally different mindset of what's important.


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## dogfaeries

Our handlers wear suits and athletic shoes to show shepherds. The rest of us at the dog show look like we’ve been cleaning out the garage.


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## WateryTart

Jax08 said:


> I don't think it had anything to do with practicality. Plain and simple....IPO is about the dog. Not about the fashion of the handler. Totally different mindset of what's important.


I figured it made sense for the people on the field to be comfortably dressed (hence, practical), but I do think there’s a much different emphasis on the visual - including the handler - in a conformation ring.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kimbale

Kendallâ€™s Dad;9109693 said:


> Looking at these videos of these GSD my question is why are these people in there everyday cloths & track suits & sweat pants. You don’t see people here dressed like that in CKC & AKC dog shows.


In these trials conformation is only one part of the show. You also are doing bitework, obedience and tracking with the dog in large fields. Half the time the fields are muddy and you're tracking through tall grass, weeds, etc. The sport is taxing and people dress appropriately for it. It's not just about the conformation ring.

I also know the UKC is more laid back on dress. I've worn jeans and a t-shirt to a UKC show. But I always wear my running gear to SV/USCA shows. Nobody cares what the handler wears, so why not be comfortable? We also run A LOT in the conformation ring. The dogs need to be moving at a fast trot and we go round and round, both on and off leash. So, again, if you can be comfortable, why not?


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## Sunsilver

SV shows involve lots of running/gaiting behind the dog at a fast speed. So, it's understandable that most competitors wear track suits and jogging shoes! I see nothing wrong with it. They are most often dressed in their kennel colours, or have t-shirts/jackets that identify their kennel, and it looks very nice and professional.


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## Rana

Here is another silent guard. I believe this was during the 2009 BSP, might have lot of points during the side transport. Dog is poised to strike till the handler comes nearby when he somewhat relaxes.


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## Rana

"lost" points during side transport


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## Sabis mom

GypsyGhost said:


> I don’t know that it would be a smart idea to try to do bitework or tracking in dressy clothes and non-athletic shoes.


Aww come on! It's always been my dream to chase a German Shepherd through a field in a skirt!!!


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## GypsyGhost

Sabis mom said:


> Aww come on! It's always been my dream to chase a German Shepherd through a field in a skirt!!!


:rofl:


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## tim_s_adams

Sabis mom said:


> Aww come on! It's always been my dream to chase a German Shepherd through a field in a skirt!!!


For our sake, please film that >


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## Sabis mom

tim_s_adams said:


> For our sake, please film that >


No video, but if I can find it there is a media shot of me catching a dog in heels and a dress. Reporter got a kick out of it.


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## Lesa2093

Sabis mom said:


> No video, but if I can find it there is a media shot of me catching a dog in heels and a dress. Reporter got a kick out of it.


So, I just completely read this out of context. On first read, I thought the dog was in heels and a dress. :rofl:


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