# Windy Acres Shepherds?



## SolarShiva (Mar 20, 2012)

Has anyone heard of this breeder? I was looking for a Shepherd breeder that doesn't breed for the sloping back(without having to import from Germany or elsewhere in the UK) and so far this is the only one I found who's dogs actually do not appear to have a sloping back. All the other ones who "claimed" their dogs were imported or that they bred "East German line" German Shepherds had dogs with sloping backs pictured. No offense meant to those who like the American bred Shepherd, I prefer the German German Shepherd type dog. 

I just started looking so there may be more than this breeder, but as I said, so far this is the only one I found who has what I'm looking for, and isn't all that far away from me. 

Any input would be appreciated, especially if you know of a breeder who breeds this kind of Shepherd.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Keep in mind when dogs are pictured in a stack, it makes them appear much more sloped that they actually are.

As far as the breeder you are referring to, they purposefully breed well outside of the standard for German Shepherds. GSD's are not meant to be 100+ pounds and that extra weight can cause health issues down the road. Looking at OFA, they appear to health test but with just call names on their site you cannot really verify which ones have actual OFA certification.

As far as breeding "old style" GSD's, that to me is completely made up by people trying to make money. Old style GSD's follow the breed founder's requirements which is a medium sized working dog.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

BTW, what exactly are you looking for in a GSD? This way, the experts on the board can help point you in the right direction.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Those dogs don't even look like real German Shepherds... how strange.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

They don't have sloping backs (???) but a lot of them have sagging backs.


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Check royalair... Got my pup from there!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Liesje said:


> They don't have sloping backs (???) but a lot of them have sagging backs.


Yes, but what I am noticing right off the bat is the very strange conformation and head structure... strange diluted colours, etc.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Those are GSDs? ha!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Be careful!

Daphne -- moderator


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Liesje said:


> They don't have sloping backs (???) but a lot of them have sagging backs.


 
I think the OP is referring to seeing pics of dogs stacked, which can make them look like their backs slope towards the ground. That is my guess though. However, most when they are not stacked do not appear anything like that.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

In addition to the previous posts I would say that the dogs appear very large but not strong or muscled. Also on their website there is a lot of fluff, that is mainly used as marketing. The barn looks photo shopped but of course I can be wrong on that.
There is no mention of working titles.
125 lbs? I thought WD was big with his 80.... 
Don't get hung up on slopy backs when they are stacked for a picture. 
I can put WD in a show stand and he will look slopy-backed too. The avatar picture shows his stands natural stand.
It's best to visit the breeder and see the dogs for yourself and decide accordingly.


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## SolarShiva (Mar 20, 2012)

Well, as I already stated I'm looking for something with a straight back, not the sloping back needed for showing here in the US. The other websites I looked at too, when the dogs were sitting there was a pronounced curve in their back and when it looked like they were standing normally there was a slope to their back as well. Good family dog, doesn't have to be bred for protection work but if they are as long as they'd make a good family dog when trained that's fine. I don't have a family, but I obviously would like a dog that I can take places and not have to worry about it wanting to attack another dog or being afraid of people, both of which I have experienced with my rescue dogs. A healthy, outgoing, friendly happy dog is what I'm looking for in the end, and unfortunately I have not had luck with rescue dogs or I would go to a rescue. 

My previous Shepherd was a mix, but mostly Shepherd(one parent was a purebred one was a Shepherd mix). Most people thought he was a purebred because he looked so much like a Shepherd. He had a good temperment when it came to people, only ever had took issue with one person, but was dog aggressive due to fear. One good thing came out of that though, finding a good trainer that specializes in aggression but also works on other behavior problems as well as does obedience. I lost him in May as he had a degenerative spinal disease that was starting to greatly affect him. They were able to get me back to being able to walk him without him freaking out at every dog we saw, which I could not do before I worked with them. 

I know even a dog from a breeder can have problems, but if I get a puppy from a reputable breeder that comes to me as a normal puppy, with proper training it can remain a normal dog. And after 2 problem dogs in a row from shelters(both accidents, breeding accidents that is), the Shepherd mix and my current youngest, I would really like a normal puppy that will turn into a normal dog with proper training, no hidden behavior surprises to come out down the road. Seeing as the only normal dog I have owned(still have, she'll be 10 the 22nd of this month) came from a breeder, it looks like going to a breeder is the only way I'm going to get a normal dog again.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Just based on the majority of photos on that site I'm not seeing straight backs/firm toplines. They look saggy and roached (the back dips past the wither and then is higher at the loin).


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

What dogs are you looking at? The dogs that show in the US generally do not have overly sloping backs. They are stacked to look that way, even if they *look* like they are standing normally.

For sitting, are you talking like seeing this:









It doesn't mean she has a sloped back. Here are 3 different views, it all depends how she stands and moves.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I would suggest that you read this, if you havent already. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

Its easier to suggest a breeder if you decide whether you want a working line or showline. Have you thought about your price point?


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Another thing you need to realize is that just because a dog is bred for protection or is out of working lines, it doesn't mean it will automatically attack every person it sees. The temperment and biddability is extremely important in working lines and it depends a great deal on the socialization aspect while they are puppies.


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## SolarShiva (Mar 20, 2012)

The dogs on this site, didn't even look at where the breeder is since they're not what I'm looking for, for example: Trained German Shepherds For Sale, German Shepherds Imported From Germany, German Shepherd Working Lines, West German Shepherd The most normal looking one, that is standing since a lot are not, is the first black one you come to with, I believe it's a sable, being the second most normal looking standing one. I don't want one with a back like these. 



> Another thing you need to realize is that just because a dog is bred for protection or is out of working lines, it doesn't mean it will automatically attack every person it sees. The temperment and biddability is extremely important in working lines and it depends a great deal on the socialization aspect while they are puppies.


I never said the dog would be aggressive just because it's from protection lines. I said doesn't have to be from protection lines because those dogs are typicially bred for a higher drive than non-protection line dogs, but if there is one that would make a good family dog regardless of being from protection lines, it wouldn't be a problem. I just don't want a dog that has to be worked due to it's energy level. I don't want something that will be worse than an Aussie or Border Collie and a lot of the working dogs I've read about are worse than them in the energy department. I *am* looking for a good temperment.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

It's the way they're standing--they're stacked. Good grief.

I'm sorry--this is going to come across as rude, but in reality I'm just being blunt---there's no way I would consider a dog from the breeder you first posted. They do not even LOOK like German Shepherd Dogs. They do have roached backs--the VERY THING you say you don't want. 

Sigh.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

SolarShiva said:


> The dogs on this site, didn't even look at where the breeder is since they're not what I'm looking for, for example: Trained German Shepherds For Sale, German Shepherds Imported From Germany, German Shepherd Working Lines, West German Shepherd The most normal looking one, that is standing since a lot are not, is the first black one you come to with, I believe it's a sable, being the second most normal looking standing one. I don't want one with a back like these.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said the dog would be aggressive just because it's from protection lines. I said doesn't have to be from protection lines because those dogs are typicially bred for a higher drive than non-protection line dogs, but if there is one that would make a good family dog regardless of being from protection lines, it wouldn't be a problem. I just don't want a dog that has to be worked due to it's energy level. I don't want something that will be worse than an Aussie or Border Collie and a lot of the working dogs I've read about are worse than them in the energy department. I *am* looking for a good temperment.


 
All of these dogs are in what's called a stack. None of them are standing normal. The stack causes them to look more sloped than they actually are. I did see one on the site with a roached back, which I personally do not care for.

As far as working dogs, I have 2. Neither of them are high drive. My female is medium drive and requires more exercise than my male. I take her swimming, for walks, and play fetch. My male prefers to curl in his bed or on my lap most of the time. Not all working dogs have high or extreme drives.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

To me, what your saying you don't want is what a german shepherd IS. They have a different walk, trot, stance then other dogs. There is a big difference between a stacked straight back german shepherd and one of those deformed back ones you see online. 

The german shepherd pics at that kennel are not what a GSD should look like. Weird dip in the middle. I don't even know what that was. 


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Capone22 said:


> To me, what your saying you don't want is what a german shepherd IS. They have a different walk, trot, stance then other dogs. There is a big difference between a stacked straight back german shepherd and one of those deformed back ones you see online.
> 
> The german shepherd pics at that kennel are not what a GSD should look like. Weird dip in the middle. I don't even know what that was.
> 
> ...


 
It's called way too big and overweight causing the back to dip.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Scary. And sad 


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

SolarShiva said:


> I never said the dog would be aggressive just because it's from protection lines. I said doesn't have to be from protection lines because those dogs are typicially bred for a higher drive than non-protection line dogs, but if there is one that would make a good family dog regardless of being from protection lines, it wouldn't be a problem. *I just don't want a dog that has to be worked due to it's energy level. *I don't want something that will be worse than an Aussie or Border Collie and a lot of the working dogs I've read about are worse than them in the energy department. I *am* looking for a good temperment.


You *do* realize that German Shepherds are working dogs, though... right?? Even a medium drive dog needs to have its BRAIN worked. These are extremely intelligent dogs who, with nothing to do, tend to develop issues. Any well bred shepherd should make a good 'family' dog... no matter what the drive. I have a higher drive pup that is still a good family dog, he just requires an outlet for his energy and needs mental exercise as well. As has been said, the pictures you're seeing (for the most part anyway) are stacked photos and aren't the 'normal' stance. My boy's back is pretty much straight, but if I stack him he appears to have a slope. I think there's a link here to what the breed standard is, which would help you in not only knowing what a well bred shepherd should be, but help you find that when looking at pups and their parents.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Sway backed horses in GSD costumes........


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

Frank is from one of the "Old Fashioned" breeders, and eventhough he doesn't have the energy level of say a high drive working line GSD. He still is very active energy wise I exercise him the same way I do my border collies and dont' even want to think of what he would be like if I didnt' with all that pent up energy. 
I'm saying this just because I think you need to really think about exactly what type of energy level you need and can work with, and really explain it to the breeder you decide on.


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## Billie (Feb 13, 2012)

What I see are very weak pasterns. Everyone who was standing, was very flat footed.(hope thats right to describe...?) Instead of being up on their feet nice, their feet were weak and broken down looking....? 
To the OP..... One of the main concerns when youre breeder shopping, is to see OFA Hip and Elbow reports on Sire and Dam, also at least one parent clear of DM . There are a lot of breeders, on and off this board, hopefully someone will step to the plate to refer you . Good luck and enjoy your search


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this site which you provided actually has the majority of dogs with rather good conformation and good backs -- 

"Trained German Shepherds For Sale, German Shepherds Imported From Germany, German Shepherd Working Lines, West German Shepherd The most normal looking one, that is standing since a lot are not, is the first black one you come to with, I believe it's a sable, being the second most normal looking standing one. I don't want one with a back like these."

The back is not the entire topline. There is the whither , the back and then the slope of the croup. here you go -- Linda Shaw's illustration of GSD conformation , the back , Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs . 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

To the OP: I don't like the slouched backs either... Everyone always talks about doing for their dogs what is closet to mimic what they would do in the wild... Well wolves or no other wild dogs have slouched backs... Just my opinion but everyone is entitled to like what they like... No matter what anyone says do what you feel is the best choice... I've noticed a lot of ppl don't like the "old fashioned, over sized" shepherds but I have one and he's a great dog... And he has a straight back! Good luck!!!


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

This is a good read for the OP. Maybe they can understand the types a bit better.

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

To the OP - German Shepherd Dog Page 
READ about the breed.
They are supposed to be longer than they are tall, and supposed to have their rump slightly lower than their front.
This is because it assisted them in movement. On the AKC page, that's what they are supposed to look like.

The 1st site shows dogs that look mutated and painful. I'm sorry, but as others said, that is not even how GSDs are supposed to look.

Eta:


> And he has a straight back! Good luck!!!


Um, so do the dogs on the AKC site...


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Curious question... Where was the "breed standard" created?


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Jd414 said:


> Curious question... Where was the "breed standard" created?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


 
By our breed founder and followed by the SV, further adopted by other registries. The SV is basically the father registry for German Shepherds.

United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> By our breed founder and followed by the SV, further adopted by other registries. The SV is basically the father registry for German Shepherds.
> 
> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard


Thanks


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSDs were never 100+ lb. dogs, so the term "Old Fashioned" is misleading...


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

So you want a dog that doesn't look like a German Shepherd and doesn't have the temperament of a German Shepherd?



> I just don't want a dog that has to be worked due to it's energy level.


Then perhaps this is not the breed for you. Even if you find one that doesn't require huge amounts of physical exercise, they need a lot of mental exercise.

A German Shepherd is not a couch potato, nor are they a 125 lbs horse. They need a LOT of work, a moderate amount of exercise (more or less, depending on the dog), and they are SUPPOSED to look like exactly the examples you gave that you say you hate for looks. 

Also, a high drive and a good temperament are not mutually exclusive... something else to consider, if you're considering this breed. 

I'd probably consider a different breed, if you want something large (GSD's are a medium dog) and low-maintenance. Good luck in finding what you're looking for, and kudos for doing research BEFORE making the leap.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If you like the looks but not the high drive, look into Chinooks. They come with three different ear positions too. I think they resemble more what you are looking for.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Find a good breeder that has a track record producing guide, or therapy dogs. Dogs that settle easily and don't have over the top prey drive. 
Working dog doesn't mean _always on the run_.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> GSDs were never 100+ lb. dogs, so the term "Old Fashioned" is misleading...


You really need to know the history of the breed before you make statements like that.
"Old Fashion" has been used to refer the German shepherd dogs pre-Bloxberg. It has more to do with height and structure than weight, although 100+pound dogs were not uncommon.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Doc said:


> You really need to know the history of the breed before you make statements like that.
> "Old Fashion" has been used to refer the German shepherd dogs pre-Bloxberg. It has more to do with height and structure than weight, although 100+pound dogs were not uncommon.


 
So, here is a good article on the history of the breed. It also has a pic of the founding stud of the breed, which did have a sway back. This sway back was bred out. It also covers why the breed survey was started which is due to breeders doing their own thing instead of following the standards set for the breed.
New Page 1


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

V Iwan vom Bierstadter Hof

VA 3 Bernd vom Lierberg

Lex vom Drei-Kinder-Haus

VA Baldur vom Befreiungsplatz

V Alex vom Westfalenheim

V Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein)

Many pedigrees and pics to include our founding sire. Not a single dog looks even close to what this kennel produces.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Doc said:


> You really need to know the history of the breed before you make statements like that.
> "Old Fashion" has been used to refer the German shepherd dogs pre-Bloxberg. It has more to do with height and structure than weight, although 100+pound dogs were not uncommon.





jaggirl47 said:


> Many pedigrees and pics to include our founding sire. Not a single dog looks even close to what this kennel produces.


:thumbup:

I agree - nothing on that site looks remotely like the founding dogs. 
At least the founding dogs appear to have been able to _work_...


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

It is also interesting that the German shepherd dogs were consistently "oversized" yet dominated in the years before 1930. After 1928 or thereabouts, any males over the standard could not be entered into the official stud book. Things were so out of the original standard that a pre-conference was held days before the Championship in order for Max to tell the judges what dog would win. Bodo Von Bloxberg was a much smaller dog than the previous Champions, probably a blue/tan with one yellow eye and shocked the crowd when he was given the Championship. At that point, many of the old breeders - breeders that produced many of the early breeding dogs used by Max, walked away from competing and went back to the farms and produced working shepherds. Many of these dogs made their way into Europe and the United States.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Why, because you "assume" that they look oversized? So, are you saying the founding father of the breed is wrong with the breed standard that he wrote? Wow. I wish I was that awesome.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> At that point, many of the old breeders - breeders that produced many of the early breeding dogs used by Max, walked away from competing and went back to the farms and produced working shepherds.


I'm confused as to how going off and doing "their own thing" with disregard to the standard is a good thing?


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> I'm confused as to how going off and doing "their own thing" with disregard to the standard is a good thing?


 
It isn't which is why the breed founder started the breed survey.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

"Von Stephanitz felt the breed should be founded on hereditary research and not show wins, he therefore required that all litters must be registered to provide the basis for genetic recording. He advised breeders on which dogs should be bred to which bitches, and perhaps just as importantly, which combinations should not be bred. He also decided which dogs would not be used for stud at all, and sent all this information to club members in the form of newsletters. Von Stephanitz expected, and even demanded compliance with the rules. He was never interested in beauty alone, only as it pertained to the dog's soundness and working ability. He wanted the GSD bred for intelligence and physical soundness suited for its work. An excerpt from his written standard reads: "A pleasing appearance is desirable, but it can NOT put the dog's working ability into question." Von Stephanitz obviously was more interested in the brain, not the beauty of the breed."

"After World War I, German Shepherd Dogs became famous and very popular. Unethical breeders began to export puppies to foreign markets, breeding without thought to the best interest of the breed. Von Stephanitz immediately instituted the Koerung, or breed survey, a system whereby all dogs are thoroughly examined, judged, and based on those results are recommended for, or excluded from, breeding privileges."

New Page 1


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I also love this phrase:

In 1889 *Captain Max von Stephanitz* began the standardization of the breed. It all started at a dog show in Karlsruhe in western Germany. *A medium-sized yellow-and-gray wolflike dog caught his attention*. The dog was of the primal canine type, supple and powerful, and possessed endurance, steadiness, and intelligence. He was a working sheepherder, born with this ability, requiring no training other than direction and finish to become proficient at the task. This dog, Hektor Linksrhein, was purchased by von Stephanitz, renamed *Horand von Grafrath*, and became the first registered German Shepherd Dog.

The German Shepherd Dog, breed history


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Even Klodo, though he looks "heavier", isn't sloppy-huge and sway-backed like some of those out there...


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

And I like this statement even more!

"Von Stephanitz had become alarmed at the trend in the breed toward oversized square dogs."

That is in the same link as my post above.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Oh, and as far as the reference above to the dog Max "selected", it was this dog right here that you are discussing. Looks extremely un-German Shepherd-like (not really).
VA1 SGR, CH. (US) Klodo vom Boxberg


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> And I like this statement even more!
> 
> "Von Stephanitz had become alarmed at the trend in the breed toward oversized square dogs."
> 
> That is in the same link as my post above.


And don't you think he's turning over in his grave over the current state of GSDs?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

While there are issues with some of the more "extreme" breeders, breeding "oversized" "old fashioned", etc. isn't the solution :thumbup:


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Horand was Max's ideal dog, not because of how he looked, but because he was made up of all 4 brred types in equal amounts. Max was a horse breeder and understood what was needed in the make up to produce what he was looking for. As a dog breeder, he wasn't very good and depending on others to cross dogs - mainly the farmer/shepherds that bred working dogs. So Those breeders kept turning out working dogs that were selected as Champions under Max's guidance. He ruled the SV with an iron fist - it was his way or no way. And I am not saying that is wrong, it's his dog and he can and did exactly what he wanted when he wanted to. Therefore, when the Champion dogs got too far out of his Standard, he crowned a dog to pull it back to the golden middle. So if big dogs dominated in the years before Boxberg, he knew crowning a smaller dog would increase the number of dogs being produced that would be more in the middle as far as size goes. Again, I never said it was wrong - I merely pointed out that many breeders and original founders of the SV did not agree with Max and the direction he forced on everyone. The more passive and less confrontational breeders went back home and produced German shepherd dogs like they had been doing for years; basing their breeding program on dogs that could produce working dogs for them. A larger, less aggressive, slower to anger, protective dog that was a shepherd of the flocks.
You will also see when Max discovered that the herding traits were lacking in his Champions, he would offer crown a dog that excelled in herding in order to increase that trait in the upcoming dogs.
As far as the standard goes, Max rewrote his Standard and increased the height of the German shepherd. Remember, Horand was only 24 -24.5 inches tall; not the current 26. Others have rewritten the Standard as a means to justify their ideas of what a German shepherd should be.
Perhaps the overriding question is: would Max rewrite the Standard today based on the current conviction of our breed?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> While there are issues with some of the more "extreme" breeders, breeding "oversized" "old fashioned", etc. isn't the solution :thumbup:


You should probably thank the stars above that there are "old fashion, oversize" breeders still around along with hobby breeders and some BYBs. Where else are you going to find different genetic material to introduce into this bottleneck breed of show lines and working dogs? The almighty Standard will not mean squat when every German shepherd is full of genetically triggered health disorders.


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Doc said:


> Horand was Max's ideal dog, not because of how he looked, but because he was made up of all 4 brred types in equal amounts. Max was a horse breeder and understood what was needed in the make up to produce what he was looking for. As a dog breeder, he wasn't very good and depending on others to cross dogs - mainly the farmer/shepherds that bred working dogs. So Those breeders kept turning out working dogs that were selected as Champions under Max's guidance. He ruled the SV with an iron fist - it was his way or no way. And I am not saying that is wrong, it's his dog and he can and did exactly what he wanted when he wanted to. Therefore, when the Champion dogs got too far out of his Standard, he crowned a dog to pull it back to the golden middle. So if big dogs dominated in the years before Boxberg, he knew crowning a smaller dog would increase the number of dogs being produced that would be more in the middle as far as size goes. Again, I never said it was wrong - I merely pointed out that many breeders and original founders of the SV did not agree with Max and the direction he forced on everyone. The more passive and less confrontational breeders went back home and produced German shepherd dogs like they had been doing for years; basing their breeding program on dogs that could produce working dogs for them. A larger, less aggressive, slower to anger, protective dog that was a shepherd of the flocks.
> You will also see when Max discovered that the herding traits were lacking in his Champions, he would offer crown a dog that excelled in herding in order to increase that trait in the upcoming dogs.
> As far as the standard goes, Max rewrote his Standard and increased the height of the German shepherd. Remember, Horand was only 24 -24.5 inches tall; not the current 26. Others have rewritten the Standard as a means to justify their ideas of what a German shepherd should be.
> Perhaps the overriding question is: would Max rewrite the Standard today based on the current conviction of our breed?


Interesting... 

So before today's "so-called" breed standard was created, there were gsd that were regularly 100lbs+??


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Doc said:


> Horand was Max's ideal dog, not because of how he looked, but because he was made up of all 4 brred types in equal amounts. Max was a horse breeder and understood what was needed in the make up to produce what he was looking for. As a dog breeder, he wasn't very good and depending on others to cross dogs - mainly the farmer/shepherds that bred working dogs. So Those breeders kept turning out working dogs that were selected as Champions under Max's guidance. He ruled the SV with an iron fist - it was his way or no way. And I am not saying that is wrong, it's his dog and he can and did exactly what he wanted when he wanted to. Therefore, when the Champion dogs got too far out of his Standard, he crowned a dog to pull it back to the golden middle. So if big dogs dominated in the years before Boxberg, he knew crowning a smaller dog would increase the number of dogs being produced that would be more in the middle as far as size goes. Again, I never said it was wrong - I merely pointed out that many breeders and original founders of the SV did not agree with Max and the direction he forced on everyone. The more passive and less confrontational breeders went back home and produced German shepherd dogs like they had been doing for years; basing their breeding program on dogs that could produce working dogs for them. A larger, less aggressive, slower to anger, protective dog that was a shepherd of the flocks.
> You will also see when Max discovered that the herding traits were lacking in his Champions, he would offer crown a dog that excelled in herding in order to increase that trait in the upcoming dogs.
> As far as the standard goes, Max rewrote his Standard and increased the height of the German shepherd. Remember, Horand was only 24 -24.5 inches tall; not the current 26. Others have rewritten the Standard as a means to justify their ideas of what a German shepherd should be.
> Perhaps the overriding question is: would Max rewrite the Standard today based on the current conviction of our breed?


 
Actually, Horand was Max's ideal dog because of his biddability and working ability. Max is the one that wrote the standard. He is the founder of the breed. Period. It can be wrapped any way someone wants to change it, but the fact is that he wrote the standard. He found when DSG's started becoming bigger, it lessened their working ability which is why he brought it back down to size. It was also not the farmers that selected the dogs to be bred to. It was Max that hand selected the dogs. It is written in black and white of our breeds history. As far as the "breeders" that left to do their own thing, this is the exact reason why Max started breed surveys, to protect the breed that HE formed and to do away with those breeders that did not want to conform to the breed standards. Max saw the issue with it which is why checks and balances were put in place.

As far as Max rewriting the standard now? No. I think he would vomit and die of a heart attack if he saw what he breed has become.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Jd414 said:


> Interesting...
> 
> So before today's "so-called" breed standard was created, there were gsd that were regularly 100lbs+??
> 
> ...


 
No. During the formation of the breed, dogs were selected for their working ability. When "breeders" started going off on their own and breeding oversized, out of standard GSD's, the breed survey was started to get rid of those breeders that were trying to deviate from the breed. The breed originally started at weights of around 45-75lbs, and has gone up slightly. Max carefully bred away from large dogs because it hindered their working ability.

Doc is one of those "old-fasioned, oversized breeders" that likes to claim things other than the true breed history.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm curious...what did Max think of breeding for show or sport?


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I'm curious...what did Max think of breeding for show or sport?


He felt breeding for work was above breeding for show. From what I under stand, the seiger shows were started in order for him to pick the male that would best influence the breed.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> I'm curious...what did Max think of breeding for show or sport?


 
He didn't believe that either pursuit should be the end all, but instead a way of testing breeding stock for the traits he desired in the breed.

the shows were also a way to evaluate the trends in the breed, whether color, earset, size, etc. By knowing the background and testing of every dog shown, he was best able to choose the direction he wanted the breed to go.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

jaggirl47 said:


> Actually, Horand was Max's ideal dog because of his biddability and working ability. Max is the one that wrote the standard. He is the founder of the breed. Period. It can be wrapped any way someone wants to change it, but the fact is that he wrote the standard.



Yes he wrote the standard and yes he's the founder of the breed but
Max wasn't quite the God you make him out to be and he didn't develop the breed on his own. Horand didn't fall from the sky. He was the product of another breeders knowledge and experience as were other dogs used during that time. Max didn't start the SV on his own, he did it with the help of other breeders, many from the Phylax society. (who bred shepherding dogs that came in all shapes and sizes) Without the knowledge and experience of those breeders I doubt Max would have come close to accomplishing his goals. 


Look up Schafermeister Manfred Heyn. You might find his observations about the breed and what it's become very interesting. (he died not that long ago)


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

jaggirl47 said:


> No. During the formation of the breed, dogs were selected for their working ability. When "breeders" started going off on their own and breeding oversized, out of standard GSD's, the breed survey was started to get rid of those breeders that were trying to deviate from the breed. The breed originally started at weights of around 45-75lbs, and has gone up slightly. Max carefully bred away from large dogs because it hindered their working ability.
> 
> Doc is one of those "old-fasioned, oversized breeders" that likes to claim things other than the true breed history.


What history book are you reading???????? As far as the " true breed history" remark, I'll be sure to sign a copy of my book for you.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Andaka said:


> He didn't believe that either pursuit should be the end all, but instead a way of testing breeding stock for the traits he desired in the breed.
> 
> the shows were also a way to evaluate the trends in the breed, whether color, earset, size, etc. By knowing the background and testing of every dog shown, he was best able to choose the direction he wanted the breed to go.


 
Very well said and much better stated than mine.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Horand was a useless dog that was about to be culled before Max bought him from a farmer at a dog show. He never worked a day in his life for Max. He ran all over the place spreading his seeds and fighting. He actually died chasing the train that ran beside his run after he escaped from it. 
I've seen an account that called Horand biddable.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Yes he wrote the standard and yes he's the founder of the breed but
> Max wasn't quite the God you make him out to be and he didn't develop the breed on his own. Horand didn't fall from the sky. He was the product of another breeders knowledge and experience as were other dogs used during that time. Max didn't start the SV on his own, he did it with the help of other breeders, many from the Phylax society. (who bred shepherding dogs that came in all shapes and sizes) Without the knowledge and experience of those breeders I doubt Max would have come close to accomplishing his goals.
> 
> 
> Look up Schafermeister Manfred Heyn. You might find his observations about the breed and what it's become very interesting. (he died not that long ago)


 
I never said Max was a God. He was, however, the founder of the breed. He knew what he wanted and he surrounded himself with those that could help him accomplish it. Just because others may have different views and beliefs doesn't change the fact that he is the reason for this breed.

As far as Horand, yes he was bred by others. He bought Horand to use as the basis for the GSD and Horand is the first SV registered "GSD".


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Doc said:


> What history book are you reading???????? As far as the " true breed history" remark, I'll be sure to sign a copy of my book for you.


 
I am reading the history of the GSD, not "thie history as others want to believe it is".


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Doc said:


> Horand was a useless dog that was about to be culled before Max bought him from a farmer at a dog show. He never worked a day in his life for Max. He ran all over the place spreading his seeds and fighting. He actually died chasing the train that ran beside his run after he escaped from it.
> I've seen an account that called Horand biddable.


 
Hmmm, so you give absolutely no credit to Horand as the founding sire of our breed? Interesting.


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

So what kind of dog was Horand? 


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jd414 said:


> So what kind of dog was Horand?


V Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein)


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Jd414 said:


> So what kind of dog was Horand?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


 
He was a herding dog that was believed to be 1/4 wolf.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jd414 said:


> So what kind of dog was Horand?


 In Max's translated words:

"Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. 
His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. 
Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."
~ Captain Max von Stephanitz


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

jaggirl47 said:


> He was a herding dog that was believed to be 1/4 wolf.


Wasn't Max adamant about having absolutely no wolf blood in this breed?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I already stated Horand's value comes from the fact that he contained bloodlines from the 4 foundational bloodlines in equal parts. With such, Max, although he wasn't a very successful dog breeder, understood the importance of having all of our bloodlines in his foundational dog. He also wrote about how much of certain bloodlines were needed in service dogs, in particular, the Swabian Service dogs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Doc said:


> Horand was a useless dog that was about to be culled before Max bought him from a farmer at a dog show. He never worked a day in his life for Max. He ran all over the place spreading his seeds and fighting. He actually died chasing the train that ran beside his run after he escaped from it.
> I've seen an account that called Horand biddable.


That doesn't say anything about his genetic make up. Every strong intact male dog that is allowed to roam free and is not trained, worked with or socialized would behave this way and be labeled "useless."


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Alot of information here... But it just seems like to many variables exist, too many "maybe sos" to be absolutely positive how this breed started and whether or not there were larger gsds back then. It's kind of like starting a debate about how the world started... Unless you were actually there you'd never know... But all in all... Good information. 


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> Wasn't Max adamant about having absolutely no wolf blood in this breed?


I said he was believed to be, but I don't know if he was or not. A dog such a small size I wouldn't think so, however I do not know.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Jd414 said:


> Alot of information here... But it just seems like to many variables exist, too many "maybe sos" to be absolutely positive how this breed started and whether or not there were larger gsds back then. It's kind of like starting a debate about how the world started... Unless you were actually there you'd never know... But all in all... Good information.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


 
Well, when the founder himself states that a GSD is a medium-sized breed, it should really not be disputed. Picking one or two dogs from the past that helped to form the breed does not mean that the GSD is supposed to be 28+ inches and 100+ pounds. The breed standard has always called for the breed to be medium sized.

Plus, you can try to get ahold of Max's book and read it.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

The German Shepherd Dog: Capt. Max Von Stephanitz: Amazon.com: Books


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> Well, when the founder himself states that a GSD is a medium-sized breed, it should really not be disputed. Picking one or two dogs from the past that helped to form the breed does not mean that the GSD is supposed to be 28+ inches and 100+ pounds. The breed standard has always called for the breed to be medium sized.
> 
> Plus, you can try to get ahold of Max's book and read it.


That's fine but my only thing is that just because a gsd is 28+ inches 100lbs doesn't mean it's not a gsd... So I don't understand why everyone talks down on these larger dogs just because they're outside of the "breed standard". They are still German Shepherds. 


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Jd414 said:


> That's fine but my only thing is that just because a gsd is 28+ inches 100lbs doesn't mean it's not a gsd... So I don't understand why everyone talks down on these larger dogs just because they're outside of the "breed standard". They are still German Shepherds.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


It is the purposeful breeding outside of the standard. Not only are they being bred outside of the standard in height and weight, the sole purpose a GSD was bred for is being bred out of them. This includes the working ability as well as a much softer temperment. Just because they are called GSD's does not mean they are GSD's when you breed the entire purpose out of them. That is the issue.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jd414 said:


> That's fine but my only thing is that just because a gsd is 28+ inches 100lbs doesn't mean it's not a gsd... So I don't understand why everyone talks down on these larger dogs just because they're outside of the "breed standard". They are still German Shepherds.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


The same reason people talk down on the extremely sloped backs of some of the ASL's or the extremely roached back of some WGSL's. Same goes for the extremes you'll see in the working lines. Breeding for extremes or a specific pet market while disregarding the more important stuff. 

In the end, they're all still GSD's though.


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> It is the purposeful breeding outside of the standard. Not only are they being bred outside of the standard in height and weight, the sole purpose a GSD was bred for is being bred out of them. This includes the working ability as well as a much softer temperment. Just because they are called GSD's does not mean they are GSD's when you breed the entire purpose out of them. That is the issue.


I guess that depends what breeders you're referring to... But not all of them are like that


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> The same reason people talk down on the extremely sloped backs of some of the ASL's or the extremely roached back of some WGSL's. Same goes for the extremes you'll see in the working lines. Breeding for extremes while disregarding the more important stuff.
> 
> In the end, they're all still GSD's though.


I agree... 


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

jaggirl47 said:


> The German Shepherd Dog: Capt. Max Von Stephanitz: Amazon.com: Books


That might be the German edition. This is the one in English.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> That might be the German edition. This is the one in English.
> 
> The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture: Max von Stephanitz: 9789993280057: Amazon.com: Books


 
Thanks. I had issues doing a copy and paste and that was the only link that would work for me.  I found it cheaper on another website but couldn't paste it.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

jaggirl47 said:


> He was a herding dog that was believed to be 1/4 wolf.


Is that in your history book? That he was 1/4 wolf? What dog carried the wolf bloodline? Was the same wolf found in the story "Little Red Riding hood"? Afterall, that wolf ate people and so do Real German shepherds.


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Doc said:


> Is that in your history book? That he was 1/4 wolf? What dog carried the wolf bloodline? Was the same wolf found in the story "Little Red Riding hood"? Afterall, that wolf ate people and so do Real German shepherds.


So what breed was he? If he was the first gsd he had to of come from somewhere he didn't just magically appear... Was he crossed with other herding breeds? I'm curious to know...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Andaka, I think you are being a little kind to my question....my understanding is the Capt frowned on BREEDING for either show or trials....he had no problem in participating in the two....there is a significant difference in the two...lol
One other thing, I see in the passage from Max how he felt if Horand had better upbringing he could have been an ideal police or military dog....I remember people telling me these dogs per the founder were supposed to be herding dogs....evidently Max wanted them doing police work from the beginning. Never hurts to let our opinion to be in line with the facts.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Whiteshepherds said:


> In Max's translated words:
> 
> "Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire.
> His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife.
> ...


sounds like todays well bred malinois


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Max fell in love with a herding shepherd he saw working a flock of sheep. Horand was not a herder.


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Jd414 said:


> So what breed was he? If he was the first gsd he had to of come from somewhere he didn't just magically appear... Was he crossed with other herding breeds? I'm curious to know...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


???


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Or, people just bred the biggest of the big to create a "new" style.
That's what happened with "Miniature Australian Shepherds". People just kept breeding runts.
Problem is...you see more and more health and temperament issues when doing this - selectively breeding for _one_ trait, such as oversized. 
You'll notice there's not a lot of uniformity on those mutant monsters, like there is with breeders who breed for the "whole package". Other than "oversized", they don't have a lot of resemblance to each other, or to the actual breed of German Shepherd.
Many look almost like Malmute mixed in...definitely not what I think of when I think "German Shepherd".


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jd414 said:


> So what breed was he? If he was the first gsd he had to of come from somewhere he didn't just magically appear... Was he crossed with other herding breeds? I'm curious to know...


His complete pedigree isn't known, that wasn't uncommon for the times. Other early dogs in the breed were also of unknown or partially known origins. 
Doc can tell you what types of dogs were used to develop the breed (or search the archives, he's talked about more than once). The majority of those dogs (pre-Horand) weren't what we would call purebreds by todays standards.


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Or, people just bred the biggest of the big to create a "new" style.
> That's what happened with "Miniature Australian Shepherds". People just kept breeding runts.
> Problem is...you see more and more health and temperament issues when doing this - selectively breeding for _one_ trait, such as oversized.
> You'll notice there's not a lot of uniformity on those mutant monsters, like there is with breeders who breed for the "whole package". Other than "oversized", they don't have a lot of resemblance to each other, or to the actual breed of German Shepherd.
> Many look almost like Malmute mixed in...definitely not what I think of when I think "German Shepherd".


This also depends on the breeder... Not all "oversized breeders" breed for one trait but the same could be said about any breeder!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> His complete pedigree isn't known, that wasn't uncommon for the times. Other early dogs in the breed were also of unknown or partially known origins.
> Doc can tell you what types of dogs were used to develop the breed (or search the archives, he's talked about more than once). The majority of those dogs (pre-Horand) weren't what we would call purebreds by todays standards.


Everyone purebred dog breed began with "ideal" mutts.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Doc said:


> Is that in your history book? That he was 1/4 wolf? What dog carried the wolf bloodline? Was the same wolf found in the story "Little Red Riding hood"? Afterall, that wolf ate people and so do Real German shepherds.


 
The thought of Horand being part wolf is shared through many. As nobody is sure exactly what he is, it is possible, which is why GSD's have the look and colorations that they do. It has nothing to do with little red riding hood.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Jd414 said:


> This also depends on the breeder... Not all "oversized breeders" breed for one trait but the same could be said about any breeder!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


 
Actually, they do. They breed for the trait of being oversized.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> @Andaka, I think you are being a little kind to my question....my understanding is the Capt frowned on BREEDING for either show or trials....he had no problem in participating in the two....there is a significant difference in the two...lol
> One other thing, I see in the passage from Max how he felt if Horand had better upbringing he could have been an ideal police or military dog....I remember people telling me these dogs per the founder were supposed to be herding dogs....evidently Max wanted them doing police work from the beginning. Never hurts to let our opinion to be in line with the facts.


 
From what I understand, Max sent his dogs to the police force after WW1 to begin working. This is how the current day schutzhund trials began.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Shepherds are supposed to have a little slant. They aren't supposed to look like perfect rectangles. Those dogs look like they have flat backs and they look fat. Disproportionate, bad colors, not much good to say about their temperaments.. They look bigger than the standard. 

I just got to the male page. I won't even comment on it.. 

I would not go with this breeder. Sorry.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> One other thing, I see in the passage from Max how he felt if Horand had better upbringing he could have been an ideal police or military dog....I remember people telling me these dogs per the founder were supposed to be herding dogs....evidently Max wanted them doing police work from the beginning. Never hurts to let our opinion to be in line with the facts.



Interesting. Here it is again... _"What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? "_


It sounds to me like he's reflecting (book was pubilshed 25 years after the breed was started) and thinking back to the breeds beginnings and noting that Horand could have been a great military or police dog IF he had been trained. 
If Max believed at the time that Horand had what it took to be trained in that capacity, what logical reason was there for not doing it? Is it possible that the reason is because Max hadn't thought about using the dogs for police and military work until a later period in time?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sch was patterned after the working needs of Police/military dogs at that time....it was felt these attributes were a good baseline for true GS temperament and breed suitability....lets not get it twisted. Sch was started with the beginning of the breed not long after Horand.....can somebody research when Sch was started so we can debunk this late use of police and Sch dogs once and for all. History won't change because we want to promote something to support what we believe.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Obviously, the HGH or herding test was also used as breeding suitability requirement, but the breed was created with an intention to be able to do police/military work also..such is why versatility and utility were used as descriptors of this breed from the beginning and not JUST herding. I know none of us want to mislead people that are learning.


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

jaggirl47 said:


> Actually, they do. They breed for the trait of being oversized.


I'm not sure what breeder you dealt with but this is not the case so to through false information around like this us wrong in my opinion. Stick to facts... 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If the breeder who breeds oversized GSD's is not breeding for that trait, what is their goal? The ones that I see are not breeding them for their working ability or the show ring. Nor are they breeding them to keep the GSD true to what it is intended to be.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

In Horand, Max had all the genetic potential he was searching for. IMO what Max couldn't do was to produce the type of dog he wanted to create. Therefore he depended on the best breeders for help. He even moved to Bravaria to be close to the breeders and dogs he wanted to use in the creation of this breed. In order for Horand to produce the well rounded, utility type dog, he had to be crossed to his opposite - a tested herding dog. 
ScH. Testing in Max's day was far different than sport today. It was a test to determine if the dog was versatile and a utility dog worthy of breeding; no points awarded, the dog either passed or failed if my memory is correct. 
As far as size, height ' weight, etc. if your German shepherd dogs are predominately from the Wurttember line of dogs, chances are they are bigger, heavier, and slower to anger - think about the German shepherd Guide dogs of the 60s and early 70s.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Lets see, oversize breeders test for DM, HD, eyes and host of other conditions associated with the German shepherd. Most of the breeders do not face the high incidents of EPI, SIBO, bloat and other disorders you hear about. Why? Because the genetic make up of these bastardized German shepherds is more diverse. By eliminating certain colors, and only thinking dogs within the standard are breed worthy, I think genetic diversity trumps them all.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Jd414 said:


> I'm not sure what breeder you dealt with but this is not the case so to through false information around like this us wrong in my opinion. Stick to facts...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


 
I am sticking to the facts. Purposefully breeding a dog to be oversized and outside the standard is breeding to a specific trait. That specific trait is breeding oversize. Not being rude, just telling the fact.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jd414 said:


> This also depends on the breeder... Not all "oversized breeders" breed for one trait but the same could be said about any breeder!


Um...yes they are. "Oversized" seems to be their main bragging point.
Other than that, the temperament of a lazy Golden Retriever, and that's about it.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

The facts are the Standard has been rewritten several times. Why?
I think it is due to greed and ego and has absolutely nothing to do with the dogs.

Max even changed the acceptable height of his original Standard to include taller dogs? Why?

Some Standards don't even mention weight. Why?

If you live by the Standard, you will die by the Standard. Large German shepherds have the same genetic make up as every other German shepherd, therefore their temperament can be the same as any other German shepherd. The biggest difference being that their genetic bloodlines are not at the bottleneck that the Standard has created.
To categorize all oversized German shepherds as lazy, unhealthy, days plastic, Golden clearly illustrates ones lack of knowledge and exposure to the diversity found in the German shepherd.
That's the same as calling all Standard German shepherds nerve bags and hyper.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Um...yes they are. "Oversized" seems to be their main bragging point.
> Other than that, the temperament of a lazy Golden Retriever, and that's about it.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I am closing this thread. Once again an opportunity to educate a new person on the breed and potentially help her find the best dog for her family has turned into nothing but yet another nasty squabble with little relevancy to the original topic. 

-Admin


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