# My puppy is challenging me/defiant/dominant - let's discuss.



## Castlemaid

So many new owners of puppies come here and ask for advice and input in how to deal with 'dominant' pups, that they see as refusing to submit to them. Puppies, of course, are not being dominant or stubborn, they are babies playing and interacting with their world the only way they know how. Yet the idea that puppies are challenging humans for dominance is strongly ingrained in our collective consciousness, and all puppy behaviour then gets seen and analyzed throught that filter. 

*My question here for discussion is: Where did the concept of puppy dominance come from?* Was this something you have always heard about? Read in a book? Seen on the internet? Was taught to you by a mentor? 
I never thought much about puppy behaviour, nor about their motivation, prior to finding this forum: never did have a puppy to raise, always adopted older dogs. But this forum really did open my mind and understanding to what makes puppies tick and how to read and understand their behaviour, that it was somewhat surprising to see so many 'dominance theory' beliefs being expressed by newcomers over the years. It is so prevalent, that I wondered, "Where do these ideas _come_ from?"

So let's discuss, where did the idea that a puppy is being dominant or willfully defiant originate, and that we humans have to 'put them in their place'?


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## holland

Looking back on it and its been a while-with my last puppy I didn't see her as dominant and she wasn't described as the dominant pup in her litter-she learned quickly and even as a pup enjoyed it-she is intelligent-just a fun puppy and I think a lot of pups are like that- I will write more later -


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## Courtney

I thank my lucky stars for this forum and for having access BEFORE we brought our puppy home because I would have been screwed up with my thinking.

Growing up my understanding coming from my dad (bless him) was puppies noses are pushed in the carpet, THAT will teach them not to pee in the house. You must show you are "top dog" Alpha or your dog will disrespect you. I will also say my dad had a heavy hand with our dogs growing up no training just "do as I say", they were well taken care of & loved but SO SO unruley looking back with adult eyes & a dog of my own it was so messed up. LOL


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## sashadog

I think the idea sprung up because it's easier to have a "problem" to fix than to admit that a relationship with your dog can be difficult and something that you have to work on. Humans seem to do this a lot and we like to have something that we see as fixable rather than something that we have to accept as "the way it is." Labeling a dog or a puppy as dominant or defiant takes any responsibility off of you for undesirable behavior and puts you into the role as "problem solver." It also takes the responsibility off the person if they have to re-home or give up said dog. It's not that they failed, it's the they had a "dominant/issue" puppy. 

Mind you, this isn't everyone nor is it the only reason but it's the one that I see most often. Luckily, I was never flooded with this message but that's probably because I was just lucky as well I did my own research. I found the right books early on (Patricia McConnel and the like) and was able to find a great trainer to learn from with my first dog. She's still one of the most "dog savvy" people I know and I now see how lucky I am to have had her as a mentor before I got all the different dog theories


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## kiya

I honestly think people don't realize that a puppy is like an infant. All it wants to do is eat sleep & play. It doesn't know or understand rules. I think the word "dominant" or "alpha" just gets thrown out there too much. Years ago without the Internet you didn't even think about labeling behaviors like that, you had puppy plain & simple. 
Lakota just turned 2 in January. She is the 5th dog I myself raised from 8 wks (kiya was 14wks). I often refer to her as a "dominant" female, but with other dogs. With people she is the sweetest little thing. The first time I brought her to visit her brother, she was probably 5 months or younger. They played so nice, it was great. Then I don't know what happened or why but she went "gremlin" on him. Gremlin is the best word to describe her actions. I found out that even as a pup, she had exhibited this behavior with the other pups, fighting to be first.
Unfortunately that behavior continues to this day with the other dogs. I can not say I ever felt like she or any of my other puppies tried to "dominate" me.


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## codmaster

How about "stubborn" instead of dominant?

There has to be some type of word/description to describe how some puppies are so much easier to raise than others who are much more "Independent"?

Just like in a pack of dogs, some will more willingly go along with the rest while some of the dogs would much more like to do what they want to do when they want to do it.

With the 8 or 9 GSD's that we have had over the years with some at the same time, I have noticed a great deal of difference in what it takes to get one or the other to do what I want them to do when I want them to do it.

How about we call it "Trainability" not "Dominance" (the latter is SO emotion filled it tends to set folks off one way or the other).

Maybe "Biddability".


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## Jax08

I think "defiant" needs to be defined. People assume that when a puppy continues to do what they don't want the puppy to do he/she is being defiant. 

Someone, somewhere, put that word to use in this situation and didn't take into consideration that "defiant" means the puppy is fully understanding what owner wants and is blowing owner off. 

That is simply not the case. Just like with children consistency, patience and repetition are the key.

Defiant is a word that never should have been used.


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## Chance&Reno

sashadog said:


> I think the idea sprung up because it's easier to have a "problem" to fix than to admit that a relationship with your dog can be difficult and something that you have to work on. Humans seem to do this a lot and we like to have something that we see as fixable rather than something that we have to accept as "the way it is." Labeling a dog or a puppy as dominant or defiant takes any responsibility off of you for undesirable behavior and puts you into the role as "problem solver." It also takes the responsibility off the person if they have to re-home or give up said dog. It's not that they failed, it's the they had a "dominant/issue" puppy.
> 
> Mind you, this isn't everyone nor is it the only reason but it's the one that I see most often. Luckily, I was never flooded with this message but that's probably because I was just lucky as well I did my own research. I found the right books early on (Patricia McConnel and the like) and was able to find a great trainer to learn from with my first dog. She's still one of the most "dog savvy" people I know and I now see how lucky I am to have had her as a mentor before I got all the different dog theories


I totally agree with this statement. People use "dominance" as an excuse for everything they can't explain properly. I hear this day in and day out in my business. I do my best to explain to people that their dog isn't "dominant" and you don't have to stare your dog down or alpha roll it to get results. They believe everything they see on TV, from behavior explainations to dog food ads. That's why I call them "sheeple". Even as a professional, you can't change minds.

I, personally, have never had a dog be "dominant" in a pack situation. I rule my house and my rules are strict. I don't use any kind of adverse method such as "alpha rolling" my dog to establish my rules. I use NILIF and if they bicker, they lose privaleges to bedding, toys, treats. This snaps them out of it quickly. Of all the dogs I foster, dog sit, adopt, (I have a huge turnover in my house) I have never had an all-out fight based on "dominance". I've had spats over the best toys or places to sleep when a new dog comes in. I've taken beds out of my house completely and re-introduced them via a "claiming ritual". The claiming ritual is that "I" sit on the bed and when I want the dogs to join me, I invite them over, just like you do with the human's couch and beds. This ends all the problems. Periodically, I will walk over, sit on a bed and ask my dogs to remove themselves. Just a reminder that I own that bed and I let you "dwell" there for as long as I'm ok with it. 
I've collected the toys that were stashed around the house and taken them completely away. I will reintroduce a toy while I play with it and invite my dogs to come play,too. If a new dog comes in and tries to claim chews or anything, I manage it by taking all chews away and swap them among the dogs. I take them all away and give them each other's chews to munch on. After 15 minutes, I take them away and offer them to the next dog. It's musical chews. I have taken some hefty resource guarders into my house and have never had spats because of this method. 
My dogs know there is no "second in charge". Humans rule the roost and all dogs are on the same level. No one tries to "take alpha position" from another dog because nothing belongs to them and there is no reason to do that as no one owns anything.

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for what I just wrote, and I'm ok with that. This method works for me and I rarely have any issues, no matter what kind of temperment a dog has. I expect my dogs to comply, as a new dog has to learn these rules. That's why I go through the rituals when they come in, to show them what's expected. I've fostered all breeds of dogs and many different behavioral issues. Resource Guarding, people aggression, and dog aggression are the most common ones I take in. This works for me but it might not work for anyone else.

EDITED TO ADD: my dog share everything. They wait patiently to share affection, no pushing to get in on the action. They wait patiently for food, treats, they work together as a pack and accomplish a lot. They are laid back because they don't have to fight for anything they want. It's provided to them as they have earned their stuff. I spoil the crap out of my dogs, my husband says I spend more on them than I do on myself and that's true! They deserve it because they have worked hard for it. It's not easy for them with the turnover in my house, sometimes they meet the one dog who will challenge me. They enforce rules like counter surfing and jumping on people. They know they can't do it so other dogs can't do it either. They will correct but that doesn't mean they are "Alpha" because they correct. It's not that THEY don't want a dog counter surfing, they know I am the one who doesn't allow it.


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## Tiffseagles

Castlemaid said:


> So many new owners of puppies come here and ask for advice and input in how to deal with 'dominant' pups, that they see as refusing to submit to them. Puppies, of course, are not being dominant or stubborn, they are babies playing and interacting with their world the only way they know how. Yet the idea that puppies are challenging humans for dominance is strongly ingrained in our collective consciousness, and all puppy behaviour then gets seen and analyzed throught that filter.
> 
> *My question here for discussion is: Where did the concept of puppy dominance come from?* Was this something you have always heard about? Read in a book? Seen on the internet? Was taught to you by a mentor?
> I never thought much about puppy behaviour, nor about their motivation, prior to finding this forum: never did have a puppy to raise, always adopted older dogs. But this forum really did open my mind and understanding to what makes puppies tick and how to read and understand their behaviour, that it was somewhat surprising to see so many 'dominance theory' beliefs being expressed by newcomers over the years. It is so prevalent, that I wondered, "Where do these ideas _come_ from?"
> 
> So let's discuss, where did the idea that a puppy is being dominant or willfully defiant originate, and that we humans have to 'put them in their place'?


IMO it's an old school way of thinking that catches on with a lot of folks because it means that the dog has the problem. Whereas if you tell the same people it's because the owner is not clearly communicating what they want and giving the pup enough of a reason to do it, then the responsibility for the situation lands on the shoulders of the owner. People don't want to be blamed for training shortfalls. It's much easier to point the finger at the puppy.


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## NancyJ

codmaster said:


> How about "stubborn" instead of dominant?
> 
> There has to be some type of word/description to describe how some puppies are so much easier to raise than others who are much more "Independent"?
> 
> Just like in a pack of dogs, some will more willingly go along with the rest while some of the dogs would much more like to do what they want to do when they want to do it.
> 
> With the 8 or 9 GSD's that we have had over the years with some at the same time, I have noticed a great deal of difference in what it takes to get one or the other to do what I want them to do when I want them to do it.
> 
> How about we call it "Trainability" not "Dominance" (the latter is SO emotion filled it tends to set folks off one way or the other).
> 
> Maybe "Biddability".


I think this is the closest to what I have observed. Some dogs constantly push the rules to the limits while others, once they know exactly what is expected, comply freely and willingly. I don't think in some of these cases it is the dog not "knowing" what is expected. My most "rebellious" dogs in that regard seem to be the smartest ones and the fastest learners.

I think there is a real balance there, too. I wanted a dog with the capacity for that trait "intellegent disobedience" that is a dog who will blow me off when he knows he has located his target odor vs. a dog I can talk out of or talk into a false indication.........but I also want "genetic obedience"......and I think to some extent these requirements conflict with one another.

I have tried to stay away from the term "dominance" but some dogs are definitely more of a handful than others......I think.


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## selzer

My guess is it was Cesar. Before Cesar fans get on my case, I will say why. My brother got Tori when she was 9 weeks old. I paid for puppy classes and they did take them to four of them (missed week one, and gave her back to be before week six). At class 5 they were discussing alpha rolls with the instructor. I was happy to get her back. Their complaint was that she was defiant. She would potty outside, and then come in and potty again inside. They are huge Cesar fans. 

Tori will be six in August. There is not a defiant bone in her body. She is NOT dominant in any way shape or form. She is an affectionate dog, with a strong willingness to please. My brother was just not accustomed to what it takes to raise a puppy, and maybe just a little too quick to think that his case is extreme, whatever it is.


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## NancyJ

I think Cesar resurrected an old idea.
Certainly I recall this thinking with the MOnks of New Skete first book.
This is an interesting article though...I am just reading through stuff on that site. Just interesting not an endorsement or anything.

Alpha Dog Theory - Debunking the dominance theory, alpha dog myth, pack leader


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## &RIGGS

Courtney said:


> I thank my lucky stars for this forum and for having access BEFORE we brought our puppy home because I would have been screwed up with my thinking.
> 
> Growing up my understanding coming from my dad (bless him) was puppies noses are pushed in the carpet, THAT will teach them not to pee in the house. You must show you are "top dog" Alpha or your dog will disrespect you. I will also say my dad had a heavy hand with our dogs growing up no training just "do as I say", they were well taken care of & loved but SO SO unruley looking back with adult eyes & a dog of my own it was so messed up. LOL


 
It was truly surprising to me how many people called me crazy for raising my pup like I did (not rubbing his nose in an accident, not demanding respect via alpha rolling or other antiquated methods, etc.). It seemed like every person I know was spouting off advice about how I needed to do things and all of the advice leaned toward the "You have to show the dog who is boss" methods.

I will say that it's really nice to watch them eat their words when they see that my 5-month old is already better behaved than their dog(s).


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## Jack's Dad

Chance&Reno.

Your method is too time consuming.

I use the Fonzi method. 

If the dog gets on the couch and I don't want them there I just click my fingers and say, "Yo get off the couch now" works everytime. 

Oh, I hope there is someone old enough to know who Fonzi is.


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## Emoore

I think this idea of dominant puppies stems, partially at least, from the fact that a lot of people these days couldn't be alpha to a goldfish. 

You have adults who let their 3 year old child rule the house

You have men and women who are completely wussified and have had so much life and confidence drained out of them that they don't know how to be a leader to a 9 week old puppy or a 4 year old human. 

98% of what makes Cesar Millan dominant is his presence, his confidence, his personality, the way he carries himself. He would do just as well as a clicker trainer because he is the kind of person that dogs listen to. People who don't have that confidence try his methods and it's not going to work as well. 

We're a culture that looks at our kids and our pets, throws up our hands and says, "I just can't do anything with him; he must be dominant!" (or, in the case of the kid, "gifted".)

There's also the element that wants the big, dominant dog but hasn't got the slightest clue how to manage or train one.


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## sashadog

Jack's Dad said:


> Chance&Reno.
> 
> Your method is too time consuming.
> 
> I use the Fonzi method.
> 
> If the dog gets on the couch and I don't want them there I just click my fingers and say, "Yo get off the couch now" works everytime.
> 
> Oh, I hope there is someone old enough to know who Fonzi is.


That was one of my favorite shows growing up! Anyone who doesn't know how the Fonz is missin' out  

On the original subject, it always makes me chuckle when people ask how my dogs are so well behaved or they ask for advice on how to train their dogs/puppies because the relationship I have with my dogs isn't one that I analyzed for days and hours before I did anything. In a way, I treated them the way I expected them to act. Didn't baby them or pay them any extra special attention unless we were working. It's weird to think about "domination" and "defiant" and other training theories so in depth sometimes because it's been such a natural process... Even to think about a new puppy somedays makes me a little worried because I don't remember how I got good dogs!! 

On the other hand, Sasha has thrown me for a bit of a loop because she's taking a lot more thoughtful effort in training and management with her fear and reactivity stuff... makes me wonder if my first three's great behavior has nothing to do with me at all, just got lucky?


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## Jack's Dad

Emoore said:


> I think this idea of dominant puppies stems, partially at least, from the fact that a lot of people these days couldn't be alpha to a goldfish.
> 
> You have adults who let their 3 year old child rule the house
> 
> You have men and women who are completely wussified and have had so much life and confidence drained out of them that they don't know how to be a leader to a 9 week old puppy or a 4 year old human.
> 
> 98% of what makes Cesar Millan dominant is his presence, his confidence, his personality, the way he carries himself. He would do just as well as a clicker trainer because he is the kind of person that dogs listen to. People who don't have that confidence try his methods and it's not going to work as well.
> 
> We're a culture that looks at our kids and our pets, throws up our hands and says, "I just can't do anything with him; he must be dominant!" (or, in the case of the kid, "gifted".)
> 
> There's also the element that wants the big, dominant dog but hasn't got the slightest clue how to manage or train one.


Yes. :thumbup:


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## shepherdmom

I don't call it dominate, defiant, or challenging me. I call it testing their limits and boundries. Just like with kids they will constantly test you to learn what they can and can't get away with. I've had some dogs and some kids who test those limits far more than others but if you stay determined in the end you will have a well behaved dog or kid.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Emoore said:


> 98% of what makes Cesar Millan dominant is his presence, his confidence, his personality, the way he carries himself. He would do just as well as a clicker trainer because he is the kind of person that dogs listen to. People who don't have that confidence try his methods and it's not going to work as well.


I think that's a big part of why his show is so hugely popular - what Cesar does looks like magic to the average dog owner, who knows little about dog training or behavior. If Cesar says it's dominance it must be so. If something worked for him, it will work for them. 

And of course, the public expects fast, magical results, the kind you see in an hour long TV show, not the long slow process that building a relationship and training a dog is in real life. If they don't get those speedy results while expending the least amount of actual effort - why there must be something wrong with their dog! He must be more difficult than the average dog! He must have rank issues, he is willfully defiant! 

Or, you know, maybe he just doesn't understand what's expected of him because you failed to train him, to set boundaries, to establish rules and structure.


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## jakes mom

I can't see it being old school thinking. 

I was a member of the British Alsation Association 40 yrs ago, and I'd never heard the expression until I joined a forum a year ago. 

I've never thought I was head of the household above the dogs. I just was - no effort from me. I think dogs just love to please.


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## amaris

From a recent convo and watching my mum's friends interact with Munich, i blame Caesar.

Literally these are almost word for word things he quoted to me
"When a puppy stares at you, don't look away, that's submission"
-erm no, when Munich is sitting by the door staring at me, he needs to potty, when he's by his milkbone box on the countertop and glaring at me, he is using all of his little pupster willpower to get me over there and give him one. When he stares at me while i'm holding his tug, he's waiting for the ok, with his chuckit...he's waiting for me to throw it...it's not staring, he's focusing on me in the only way he knows how.

"Don't lose a game of tug with you dog, or any game ever."
-Once Munich figured out what "off" was, i regularly let him win, as long as he gave it back to me when asked."

He tried that "tst" sound on Munich, while touching him on his butt.
-Munich whirled around and made a half-hearted snap, letting his displeasure at a stranger molesting him get known (he's perfectly fine when i do it) and i told the guest to knock it off.

He also forced Munich to sit...literally pushed the pupster's butt down
munich didn't do anything, but again i said knock it off.


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## Chance&Reno

Jack's Dad said:


> Chance&Reno.
> 
> Your method is too time consuming.
> 
> I use the Fonzi method.
> 
> If the dog gets on the couch and I don't want them there I just click my fingers and say, "Yo get off the couch now" works everytime.
> 
> Oh, I hope there is someone old enough to know who Fonzi is.


It's not as time consuming as it sounds. It's about management. I have at least 5 new dogs in my house each week. I have a high turnover from week to week. I take in several fosters at a time, too. On any given week, I may have 7 additional dogs including my own. Some dogs have been here several times and some are new dogs to the house. Either way, rules are rules and sometimes they need to find out through this method. It really does work, especially with how busy my house is..

I LOVE the that show BTW.. That reference made me laugh..LOL


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## OriginalWacky

Chance&Reno said:


> It's not as time consuming as it sounds. It's about management. I have at least 5 new dogs in my house each week. I have a high turnover from week to week. I take in several fosters at a time, too. On any given week, I may have 7 additional dogs including my own. Some dogs have been here several times and some are new dogs to the house. Either way, rules are rules and sometimes they need to find out through this method. It really does work, especially with how busy my house is..
> 
> I LOVE the that show BTW.. That reference made me laugh..LOL


I wanna come live with you! I can't take in foster dogs (stupid zoning regulations), and am at my pet limit now.

As far as puppies being defiant, I kinda think it's really really rare. Even older dogs are more likely testing the waters, so to speak than being actively defiant. I don't even think about it that much, I'm THE boss in the house, and I expect my animals to know it. Teaching them that doesn't involve much more than controlling who gets what, when, and how. I am the giver of all things good, and have been for far longer than I've known about NILIF. 

Whatever I'm doing, it's worked very well with almost every dog I've been around, and I'm going to keep doing it my way. I'm not averse to learning new ways, and trying them out, though. So I've added new things to my routines as I've learned them, tried them, and either kept them if they work, or discarded them if they didn't.


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## Pepper311

I am reading a book called Dog Sense by John Bradshaw. It shed a some light on why we should not look at our dogs as wolves. We need to treat them like dogs. Comparing our dogs behavior to a wolf is like comparing us humans to chimp. Yes we are similar even in dna but far from the same. 

When people started comparing captive wolves to our pet dogs that's when the problems and misunderstanding comes from.
That's all I have to say about that.


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## matthewm11

My dog walked out of the door ahead of me today....does this mean she now thinks she is alpha? Just kidding. When she starts buying MY food and feeding ME, taking me out on walks and hikes, giving me treats and training me, I will worry about her being alpha. Until then, I controll the resources and I feed her and protect her and exercise her and take her out and train her and spend all my money on her. I open the door and flip on the lights. She would have to pretty dim-witted to not see I controll everything in her environent and am a benebolent friend and leader.


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## Falkosmom

OriginalWacky said:


> I wanna come live with you! I can't take in foster dogs (stupid zoning regulations), and am at my pet limit now.


Wacky, 

PA courts have ruled any and all local and county ordinances restricting/limiting the number of pets you have as unconstitutional. The ruling supports your right to the pursuit of happiness further stating that merely the number of animals one owns does not present a nuisance or neglect. The ruling goes on to further state that there exists a plethora of laws protecting the condition and care of the animals and properties involved and there are other avenues available to alleviate any health/nuisance conditions.


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## Harley6320

How did you get your dog to stop peeing in the house? Because that's what mine does. He pee's and poops outside but then sometimes he'll mess in the house. I'm having major issues getting him to understand that he needs to go potty outside. He was doing well with holding it through the night but ever since my husband deployed he's just gotten worse.


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## OriginalWacky

Falkosmom said:


> Wacky,
> 
> PA courts have ruled any and all local and county ordinances restricting/limiting the number of pets you have as unconstitutional. The ruling supports your right to the pursuit of happiness further stating that merely the number of animals one owns does not present a nuisance or neglect. The ruling goes on to further state that there exists a plethora of laws protecting the condition and care of the animals and properties involved and there are other avenues available to alleviate any health/nuisance conditions.


Hmmm. That might be why there hasn't been any further hassle after the initial visit. I'd love to see them convince somebody that our pets are neglected - if you meet our animals and saw our vet and food and toy bills, you'd know these animals are getting excellent care. Not that money is the end all and be all of taking care of animals, but the amount of time we spend enriching their lives added to the money spent equals very spoiled and happy animals. 

I'm going to have to peek around that find info about that and bring it to the attention of code enforcement if they do ever come back to pester us about the number of animals we have.


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## Chance&Reno

Falkosmom said:


> Wacky,
> 
> PA courts have ruled any and all local and county ordinances restricting/limiting the number of pets you have as unconstitutional. The ruling supports your right to the pursuit of happiness further stating that merely the number of animals one owns does not present a nuisance or neglect. The ruling goes on to further state that there exists a plethora of laws protecting the condition and care of the animals and properties involved and there are other avenues available to alleviate any health/nuisance conditions.


I live in MA and I had to go the legal route to have a certain # of dogs in my house at any given time. I had to get a Kennel License for 10 dogs. My town required it and they do check in occassionally. I have 2 of my own but my foster is licensed as mine, too. I can have 7 additional dogs in my house at any point. Because I have so much rotation, I've never had a problem with being out of code. They inspect inside the house and outside in the yard to make sure my living conditions aren't being affected. My house and yard are spotless and the ACO is always amazed at how many cabinets I have dedicated to dog treats.. hahhhaaha


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## Tiffseagles

Falkosmom said:


> Wacky,
> 
> PA courts have ruled any and all local and county ordinances restricting/limiting the number of pets you have as unconstitutional. The ruling supports your right to the pursuit of happiness further stating that merely the number of animals one owns does not present a nuisance or neglect. The ruling goes on to further state that there exists a plethora of laws protecting the condition and care of the animals and properties involved and there are other avenues available to alleviate any health/nuisance conditions.


I didn't know this. Are you referring to the ruling in 1994 (only one I found via google)? Philadelphia has a limit on the books. I have to look into this.


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## Pax8

I probably haven't been around long enough to have a good understanding of where the dominant puppy line of thought comes from. Or at least not its origins. I do know when I was a kid the whole romanticizing of wolves and wolf packs was a big thing. Wolves seemed to be the hot animal to love (and own), but with it came all the misunderstanding about wolf dominance. It seemed like many people I knew took that little bit of misinformation they managed to get a hold of and just applied it to dogs thinking they were basically the same. Or there were people that liked to think they had an animal that was fairly equivalent to a wolf.

I'm sure it doesn't help that much of the public education about dog training comes from questionable sources (Cesar) where what little knowledge that could be helpful is chopped down into small, distorted bits of entertainment meant more to hold an audience than to actually convey very much useful information. It seems like everything is dramatized. People see these dogs labeled as dominant that are then "trained" over the course of an hour long show. There is some sense that maybe the training took a bit longer, but most just see training more as finding the right tool to airlift you to the top of the mountain rather than spending days working tirelessly to make your way to the top (sometimes with good days, sometimes with bad days).

Plus much of this dog training entertainment focuses on the conflict. It seems like there is always the conflict between the trainer or owner and the dog. So it's not framed as the trainer trying to build a relationship and understanding with the dog, but as a trainer overcoming this great obstacle. The entire focus of dog training often isn't framed correctly for a viewing audience to understand that the base of dog training is building a relationship. So many take it as gospel. It was done by the TV professional. He must know what he's doing to have his own show. So they follow it.

I also agree with what others have said that often people don't want to see themselves as the problem. I have never yet had a person come to me and ask me what they are doing wrong. It's always the dog's fault. The dog is dumb, or defiant, or stubborn, or the worst dominant, which many people say like it's a death sentence. People don't want to hear that there isn't some magic switch to flip to make their puppy perfect. They want to know what's wrong and what they need to do (or pay someone else to do) to fix it.


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## lauren43

I believe it all started with Rudolph Schenkel and his study of captive wolves and him trying to relate it to dog behavior.

It has stemmed from there. Of course then David Mech came along and explained wolf behavior is much more complex then that and that related wild wolves do not interact as unrelated captive wolves do. 

That being said dogs are dogs. They were made to interact with people. And they are not out to dominate your life. I simply wish people wouldn't believe everything they hear (be it hear say from a friend, or even from a vet or a trainer) I wish they would research for themselves and determine their own beliefs from many different sources. It's easy to read/listen/hear/watch one bias statement and believe it as truth. It takes a lot more to think, discover, read, research, and learn for oneself.


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## carmspack

Excellent article in this month's Dogs Naturally Magazine .

"Alpha Wolves in Sheep's Clothing?"


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## ozzychas22

my shepherd is two be 3 in dec she is big boned and bread for security but does anybody have a problem with her finding a sock or anything she knows she not supposed to have she guards it with her life it seems showing her teeth and growling it is scary some times does anybody have a sugestions ,me and my wife have been bitten not bad just a pinch but afterwards she seems sorry she follows you she tries to lick it like she is saying she is sorry I have had shepherds all my life never came across this I don't want to hit her in any way so what can I do.


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## Moriah

Before I picked up my 9 week old puppy from the litter, I spent big bucks on Amazon and ordered lots of dog obedience books and DVDs. I had not had a puppy in 15 years. I wanted to understand how best to proceed. Clearly, I could see the the dominance theory had been discarded.

Karen Pryor and her camp I read and watched very closely. Cesar was a waste of money as most everyone had openly tossed "dominance." Control Unleashed book and DVD was very good and I have lent out to others. 

I spent hours on the internet looking for a trainer in my area with experience with protection dogs. I went to one puppy class and quit--the instructor had the puppies let loose and two larger dogs went after mine. Then, the first thing after the dogs were leashed, the instructor had owners "alpha role" their puppies and went around and checked that it was done "properly." I did NOT do it. 

I should have left while my dog was being traumatized in the free for all, I never went back after the first class. The owners of one of the dogs that "attacked" my in the class apologized in the parking lot.

*Honestly, I have learned the most about raising a GSD puppy here on the forum. *I read the forum everyday. I have found my trainer (2hours away) here on advice of a forum member. I have learned sooooo much about raising a puppy well here. 

I am so grateful to the breeders who stay engaged with the forum. Their information is invaluable. I wouldn't have found what I have learned in a book.

Daily I learn here on the forum about the legal responsibilities of owning a GSD, how to best interact with my dog as a "partner," how to keep my boy healthy, how totally amazing this breed is, and how the members support each other through poor health and the loss of their beloved pets.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

carmspack said:


> Excellent article in this month's Dogs Naturally Magazine .
> 
> "Alpha Wolves in Sheep's Clothing?"


Carmen,

Is that article online, or in print? I couldn't find it online. My first male wolfdog (my heart dog) looked like a very big black and red GSD, but we called him our "wolf in shepherd's clothing." He had a well-defined view of what were proper wolf manners, and he lived by them. All wolfdog controversy aside, he was an amazing animal. 

I'm sure the article is not about wolfdogs, but I would like to read it if it is online. Thanks!

Susan


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## Susan_GSD_mom

ozzychas22 said:


> my shepherd is two be 3 in dec she is big boned and bread for security but does anybody have a problem with her finding a sock or anything she knows she not supposed to have she guards it with her life it seems showing her teeth and growling it is scary some times does anybody have a sugestions ,me and my wife have been bitten not bad just a pinch but afterwards she seems sorry she follows you she tries to lick it like she is saying she is sorry I have had shepherds all my life never came across this I don't want to hit her in any way so what can I do.


Perhaps you can post this also on the forum regarding aggression, "Aggression (the good, the bad & the ugly)," regarding resource guarding. (It doesn't look like the link came in with the title, but look under Forums, and/or do a search on 'Resource Guarding.")

Susan


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## petite

I find it sad so many people are walking around blaming puppies for being "dominate" when they are not spending time on obedience. Maybe these same people think a child having fun who refuses to leave the park is also trying to take over the family and assert their dominance. 

I'm not personally offended by Cesar and his show but it is incredibly misleading. I would hope people take away from it that getting a private consultation and working with a professional is a great idea, not that they should go buy a prong or choke and start hanging their misbehaving dog.


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## hunterisgreat

Puppies can certainly be dominant... but you generally only see it displayed towards littermates


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## Tiffseagles

Brenda Aloff 
"Using dominance as the 'reason' your dog does not come when you call it or doesn't sit when you request a sit is excuse-making........... The other great mistake is made by the owner who is so paranoid, every move the dog makes is seen as some sort of status-seeking behaviour. The whole 'don't let your dog go through the door before you because he is trying to dominate you' ideology. I mean, really. I don't allow my dogs to go through the door until I tell them they can do so, but it is a safety issues; I dislike being dislodged off my feet by dogs shoving me aside in their excitement to get into the yard. If a dog runs through the door ahead of me, I wouldn't assume he has sinister intentions and is trying to 'pull one over on me.' I think he just wants to go outside and is taking the direct route."


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## Nikitta

Tiffseagles said:


> Brenda Aloff
> "Using dominance as the 'reason' your dog does not come when you call it or doesn't sit when you request a sit is excuse-making........... The other great mistake is made by the owner who is so paranoid, every move the dog makes is seen as some sort of status-seeking behaviour. The whole 'don't let your dog go through the door before you because he is trying to dominate you' ideology. I mean, really. I don't allow my dogs to go through the door until I tell them they can do so, but it is a safety issues; I dislike being dislodged off my feet by dogs shoving me aside in their excitement to get into the yard. If a dog runs through the door ahead of me, I wouldn't assume he has sinister intentions and is trying to 'pull one over on me.' I think he just wants to go outside and is taking the direct route."


I totally agree with you on this. Xerxes doesn't want to wait for me to get out of the car first but that's just because he doesn't want to stay in the car but go out with me. So many of these people overdramatize simple dog behavior that is more of a training issue then the dog needing to be on a psychs couch.


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