# I should have never let people pet my pup...



## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

At almost 6 months old, she jumps up on people. During walks, when we pass by people she sort of lunges at them. Not always but she sees people as play things when she wants to play. She doesnt bite people, but she would touch their hands with her nose. I try correcting her with leash pops but doesn't always work. She also lunges at cars sometimes, has very high prey drive. Basically anything fast moving gets her attention. When I first got her, I thought the puppy biting would be the biggest problem, but now I would happily take the biting over the jumping. I was reccomended to get her a prong collar at 6 months, I don't want to but need to put an end to the lunging, pulling, jumping. And of coarse I have to deal with the idiots who make kissy sounds and try to get her attention during walks. Um, STHU!:grin2:
Sorry, needed to get that out.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Can you carry a toy with you that she really likes: ball on a rope or a tug, then teach her if she ignores whatever you want her to ignore she gets a short game. Makes you more exciting compared to the environment.


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## ChloeGSD (Jul 16, 2016)

She's still very young!! It's an absolute must to get your pup used to people, shes excited, not being at all aggressive. It's great that you are doing so. It seems that she is really getting used to people and loves to see new strangers! "Oh wow, who are you? Hi!!, guyss look at me! Ain't I cute?"

My 18 month old also has a very high prey drive and goes after flies, bees, people with rolling suitcases, Etc. But you can redirect that behavior towards something like a tug toy or playing fetch. Playing is great to get the excess energy out and will eliminate the 'over excitedness'.

Don't bother with a prong collar. Or an e-collar, or anything like those 'effective training tools'. It's not the equipment you use, it's how you train the dog and approach the matter. 

I know it can be annoying for you dog to be constantly overloaded with affection!! It's what they need! She needs to know that humans mean no harm.  You're doing a good job with the socializing.


Before you take her on a walk, have her play a game like fetch to drain her a bit. This will calm her. If she's not improving once you've done that, watch this.
After a while, she'll be more interested in you and the people passing will just be normal to her.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

First, I am just going to recommend that you find a trainer that is very familiar with GSD/working dogs. If you have already done that, great. Is that who is recommending a prong collar? I started using one on my male at 5.5 months. For my dog, it needed to happen. Redirection did nothing to stop his behavior. You know what did? A meaningful, well timed correction. Had to do it exactly once. Ta-da! Problem solved. That one correction made it very clear to him that the behavior he was displaying was not acceptable.

I understand why people are freaked out by prong collars and ecollars. Our society has made them out to be these torture devices. But let me ask you this... Is it more cruel to use a tool correctly that effectively communicates something to your dog, or is it more cruel to let everything become a muddled shade of grey because your timing is off with redirecting and your dog thinks it gets rewarded sonetimes for lunging at people? For me, I'd rather have a very black and white line of communication with my dog. Redirection works for a lot of dogs, but not all of them. Please don't make it out to seem like you are going to damage your dog by using other tools.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

There nothing wrong with trying a prong,slip lead, or martingale If what you're using now is not working for you.Find one that enables you to communicate with her more effectively.The more she practices an unwanted behavior the more ingrained it becomes.

Some people swear by harnesses with the ring in front on the chest.I recently put a traditional type harness on my husky mix to make it easier on myself and her when we're enjoying her favorite activity,tracking and sniffing out critters around home.And to my surprise she doesn't pull at all!!??Backwards from what should happen,but I'll take it

I guess my point is that prongs,slip leads,etc. are designed to more easily communicate not to hurt or abuse.And harnesses don't necessarily encourage pulling.Don't decide a tool won't work until you try.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Prong collars are so much more effective than anything gentle and you only need a few good corrections to stop the behavior. If you don't, it will escalate. It bothers me that people don't understand that it's only a tool and if used effectively is much more humane than allowing your puppy to become a nuisance.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Gypsy is right.

Redirection might distract the dog a bit but what is needed is a well timed correction.

A few years ago, I would walk my then puppy tervuren in the downtown area daily. She was excited, too by every moving thing, every person, car, every dog. Quickly I learned that the classic redirection advice wasn't going to cut it and started correcting clearly, and with good timing. After that, she could walk past Segways, tourists, bikes, small kids, and other dogs without lighting up. It was beautiful and made my lunch break much more enjoyable. 

To note too lunging at people even in a friendly way is building your girl up to a nip and then to a bite. If you watch videos of building a puppy up in protection work, they often use tie-backs and then tease the dog into lunging, letting her miss many times and then giving her a bite. You are essentially doing the same thing on your daily walks. 

I actually didn't use a prong collar or an e-collar for this, but was able to clearly correct her. She's a sensitive but hard dog, hard to describe, anyway, I used a fursaver and that was all I needed for her. I also taught her a very strong "fuss" for those emergency situations when we are in a bike-trail tunnel and a dog is passing on the left and a bike coming at us on the right. I do consider this a form of redirection, but it is a useful tool to have on hand. I also taught her "on-by", a term taken from mushing but very useful for walks in busy places. Eventually, "on-by" is unspoken and implied for every distraction. 

It may be cute now, but you do not want this to escalate and really do need to stop it now.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Prong collars are so much more effective than anything gentle and you only need a few good corrections to stop the behavior. If you don't, it will escalate. It bothers me that people don't understand that it's only a tool and if used effectively is much more humane than allowing your puppy to become a nuisance.


One good, solid correction will save you fifty useless nagging ones that frustrate you and the dog.

Positive methods don't always work with high drive dogs when they're in drive. They don't care about treats. 

I think it's far more humane to deliver one well timed, effective correction with the prong or e collar than to yell and yank the poor dog around incessantly or use the so called *gentle* methods that often aren't so gentle and don't always work with powerful, high drive dogs.

And as to whether the prong and e collar are *cruel*--I have a 2 yo WGWL NM who is the worst puller I've ever had. He pulls right through the prong, it doesn't make a dent in him. If he's in drive, the e collar doesn't phase him either. I've been in GSD's, including WLs and former police K9s since 1991 and he is, without a doubt, my biggest challenge to date. Very nice boy, though.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Put her in a sit when people are near. She gets no attention unles all four are on the ground. At first I would put her in a sit and give treats, if someone is coming up to pet her, keep your hand in front of her nose with the treat, they give her a quick pet and move on--the whole time she is still trying to get what is in your hand. When they walk away, give the treat and tell her good girl. It shouldn't take long for her to realize she needs to be sitting to get any attention. After a while she will sit without being told, she might wiggle her butt, but she will sit. I have 8 dogs and every one of them will sit on their own when a person is approaching or when I stop moving.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Put her in a sit when people are near. She gets no attention unles all four are on the ground. At first I would put her in a sit and give treats, if someone is coming up to pet her, keep your hand in front of her nose with the treat, they give her a quick pet and move on--the whole time she is still trying to get what is in your hand. When they walk away, give the treat and tell her good girl. It shouldn't take long for her to realize she needs to be sitting to get any attention. After a while she will sit without being told, she might wiggle her butt, but she will sit. I have 8 dogs and every one of them will sit on their own when a person is approaching or when I stop moving.


A dog can't jump if it is in a "sit". Like you said, start from a point of observation and work your way up. :thumbup:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think I started mine on a prong when he was 10 or 11 months. It has worked well for him. I have been slow to sign up for group classes because almost everyone around here is "force free" and I would be shamed into the next county if they saw me using the prong. But wait I am digressing here.

If you have a reward that is valuable to your dog you can teach them a behavior that gets the reward which is triggered by a specific event. I taught mine to look back at me if a leashed dog barks at him. When he looks at me, he gets his ball on a rope. He got creative with that and started looking at me anytime we saw a dog. Works for me. I don't see that as redirecting so much as rewarding good behavior.

Only exception was the neighbor's dog who he knows, has played with, and I did give him a good pop trying to pass her in the road because that was when he would do his two legged monkey boy routine. He is a big dog, you don't want to see him doing this. Simply unacceptable for an 84lb dog to act like that, must be nipped in the bud or at least that's my take on mine.


Anyway I don't have a problem with prongs. When mine was your dog's age I definitely thought he was too young for it, physically and mentally. 

For us the prong is mostly to get through "squirrel alley", which is a small stretch of road before they get offleash, where there are chipmunks and squirrels EVERYWHERE and he completely forgot his leash manners. He is now back to 100 percent loose leash on the prong and when he occasionally perks up on a squirell, a no from me is enough to remind him it isn't worth it. 

I think I got pretty far without going to the training collar. If the dog has such prey drive seems like she might go for a ball on a rope and you might be able to correct a lot of this by teaching her to get her payout from you instead of the rest of the world,


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

zetti said:


> One good, solid correction will save you fifty useless nagging ones that frustrate you and the dog.
> 
> Positive methods don't always work with high drive dogs when they're in drive. They don't care about treats.
> 
> ...


I do too, and an e collar, used correctly can work where a dog ignores a prong. How do you handle a high drive dog when no collar works? Then a different approach must be needed?

My puppy has high drive for some things, but I can correct him away, so he's not what you are referring to. My other dog isn't high drive except for chasing things. Neither has any interest in treats when they are focusing on something else.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I definitely don't think an a ecollar is the answer here...

OP have you worked with a trainer with this dog at all? 
What is your level of dog experience prior to this dog?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

You got an intelligent and energetic breed and she is just entering the teenager part. Congrats. She sounds fun.

What I think you really need is a trainer to help you manage what sounds like normal silly teenager GSD behavior. We can give you all kinds of ideas here but if you don't know how to handle it, admit it and find someone to help you. GSDs have a tendency to challenge the handling skills of their owners. Take up the challenge. 

Prong collars can definitely help but if you don't have a comprehensive approach, the dogs antics will show up somewhere else. 

Invest in good training, maybe one on one, that focuses on your handler skills. Invest, commit and then enjoy your dog.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I do too, and an e collar, used correctly can work where a dog ignores a prong. How do you handle a high drive dog when no collar works? Then a different approach must be needed?
> 
> My puppy has high drive for some things, but I can correct him away, so he's not what you are referring to. My other dog isn't high drive except for chasing things. Neither has any interest in treats when they are focusing on something else.


What I'm doing with my wild child is breaking everything down into smaller and smaller steps. He can't even go out the gate without yanking me off my feet because in his head going out the gate means going to garage which means going to car which means going for ride which means possibly going someplace REALLY fun like the park or training.

So we go outside and take baby steps toward the gate. He's got plenty of food drive and doesn't usually fall out even when he's excited, so I work with that. He's learning *walk!* which is not the same as *fuss*, he only has to walk nicely on his leash to avoid a zap. just a few steps at a time. When we're standing still, he doesn't have to sit still (yet), he just can't yank on the leash.

He does know *fuss* but when he's in drive or distracted, forget it. I plan to title this dog--I've got my work cut out for me.

Right now he's on the Austerity Program. No gratuitous rides. We go to the vet or training, that's it. No more goofing off.

Hope that all made sense.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

zetti said:


> What I'm doing with my wild child is breaking everything down into smaller and smaller steps. He can't even go out the gate without yanking me off my feet because in his head going out the gate means going to garage which means going to car which means going for ride which means possibly going someplace REALLY fun like the park or training.
> 
> So we go outside and take baby steps toward the gate. He's got plenty of food drive and doesn't usually fall out even when he's excited, so I work with that. He's learning *walk!* which is not the same as *fuss*, he only has to walk nicely on his leash to avoid a zap. just a few steps at a time. When we're standing still, he doesn't have to sit still (yet), he just can't yank on the leash.
> 
> ...


Yes, it makes sense. I hope you keep us updated on how it's working out. Did you see that intensity with him when he was a very young puppy?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I also recommend using a trainer. It's not something you can eliminate unless you know exactly how to stop it.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> I also recommend using a trainer. It's not something you can eliminate unless you know exactly how to stop it.


Isn't that what you guys are for? :grin2:
Seriously, the "trainers" around here are either the BS petco, or the scam artists that charge $200 for an hour session. Can you believe the balls on some of these guys? The cheapest one I found was $700 for 6 sessions. No thank you. She is overall a very good pup, the only problem I really have is the jumping on people and jumping on furniture. Today, I actually tired her out a bit and worked on some no pulling on walks, she did better. If I don't see an improvement I will use the prong or slip. Thanks guys for all the suggestions.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NYCgsd said:


> Isn't that what you guys are for? :grin2:
> Seriously, the "trainers" around here are either the BS petco, or the scam artists that charge $200 for an hour session. Can you believe the balls on some of these guys? The cheapest one I found was $700 for 6 sessions. No thank you. She is overall a very good pup, the only problem I really have is the jumping on people and jumping on furniture. Today, I actually tired her out a bit and worked on some no pulling on walks, she did better. If I don't see an improvement I will use the prong or slip. Thanks guys for all the suggestions.


No, most of us are not trainers, we are owners with experience. The reason to pay a trainer is to have someone observe what you are doing and help you stop it and also to prevent a problem from escalating. A good trainer is expensive. You are paying for their expertise. $700 is a lot less than it would cost if a large dog gets out of control and accidentally causes an injury.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

google "obedience clubs" and find one near you.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> Isn't that what you guys are for? :grin2:
> Seriously, the "trainers" around here are either the BS petco, or the scam artists that charge $200 for an hour session. Can you believe the balls on some of these guys? The cheapest one I found was $700 for 6 sessions. No thank you. She is overall a very good pup, the only problem I really have is the jumping on people and jumping on furniture. Today, I actually tired her out a bit and worked on some no pulling on walks, she did better. If I don't see an improvement I will use the prong or slip. Thanks guys for all the suggestions.


OK then .... I can do a bit better than that! 

First you have a "bad dog" not a "biter" at the moment" but he is seriously out of control! A "butt hole" if you will. No problem but if you take a "issue" to "issue" approach ... that's gonna take awhile??

Some issues you address directly and some issues you "flank" you need to address the dogs "overall" behaviour and as he gets less crazy, he'll be easier to deal with. 

RIght now your dog is "out of control" and until he gets a grip, he should not be "in any contact with people." His "job" needs to be to "observe" people. And if he "won't do that while sitting, then train a "Down and Stay!" 

I usually state all rehabs starts with "Place" but your guy is being a "PIA" so ... down it is! Lot's of ways to get there but no point in continuing to mess around! Going right at it looks like this:






Train that and you'l have your first "tool" for control.

Sit, works fine for dogs that "give a crap" about what there owners say ... that does not sound like your dog?? In anycase you don't need to break out Sit as a separate command, when you start to work on walking him properly, you can get "Sit" done then. Looks like this:






Upward pressure on the leash and two fingers on the dog's butt ... "Sit!" And yes Jeff is using a "Prong" most serious trainers do but you do have options ... the basics for walking your dog "Properly" are in the "New Dog a Challenge Thread" that is done with a "Flat Leash and regular collar" if you get that done then you already know how to use a "SLL" if you chose. 


For more click on the link in this post:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

And a proper correction is a "Slight Tug Sideways" regardless of tool well assuming a Bucket Collar, Prong or SLL is in use.

Oh yeah and "SLL" ... here you go:
Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

Back to basics.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> OK then .... I can do a bit better than that!
> 
> First you have a "bad dog" not a "biter" at the moment" but he is seriously out of control! A "butt hole" if you will. No problem but if you take a "issue" to "issue" approach ... that's gonna take awhile??
> 
> ...


She absolutely never downs unless I am holding a treat or a toy, and even then it's not consistent. I feel like she just hates downing, she sits consistently, but downs have been a problem since day 1. Ive worked on downs, and she hates doing it. She is not a lazy dog because she goes after every single bird, and loves to play, but downs is just something I dont think she will ever want to do.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> She absolutely never downs unless I am holding a treat or a toy, and even then it's not consistent. I feel like she just hates downing, she sits consistently, but downs have been a problem since day 1. Ive worked on downs, and she hates doing it. She is not a lazy dog because she goes after every single bird, and loves to play, but downs is just something I dont think she will ever want to do.


Dogs who *hate* doing a down usually hate it because they don't like being put in a submissive position.

If she's not consistent, you'll have to get more strict. Don't give her the option of *not* doing the down.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> Isn't that what you guys are for? :grin2:
> Seriously, the "trainers" around here are either the BS petco, or the scam artists that charge $200 for an hour session. Can you believe the balls on some of these guys? The cheapest one I found was $700 for 6 sessions. No thank you. She is overall a very good pup, the only problem I really have is the jumping on people and jumping on furniture. Today, I actually tired her out a bit and worked on some no pulling on walks, she did better. If I don't see an improvement I will use the prong or slip. Thanks guys for all the suggestions.


Do you have an AKC club in your area?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would like to say I don't think that letting people pet your puppy is the cause of your problems. Because mine are search and rescue dogs (and higher drive working dogs) they are used to people petting all over them since they were pups and don't have these problems. Consistent training and enforcing expectations. Wearing her out some before going out.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> She absolutely never downs unless I am holding a treat or a toy, and even then it's not consistent. I feel like she just hates downing, she sits consistently, but downs have been a problem since day 1. Ive worked on downs, and she hates doing it. She is not a lazy dog because she goes after every single bird, and loves to play, but downs is just something I dont think she will ever want to do.


I like your dog. Why should she go down when people or other dogs approach? That's submissive. I've had to explain that to my trainer. I want my dog to sit if I tell her to under those circumstances not be on her belly. Of course a controlled down is a must but not when she's approached imo.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

zetti said:


> Dogs who *hate* doing a down usually hate it because they don't like being put in a submissive position.
> 
> If she's not consistent, you'll have to get more strict. Don't give her the option of *not* doing the down.


LOL I was just going to quote the OP and say* "Exactly!"
*

But I like your "fuller" explanation better! 

Sit, Sit, Sit doesn't cut much ice with dogs that have established a pattern of bad behaviour ... "Down" (once taught) cuts through the "Crap!"


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

NancyJ said:


> I would like to say I don't think that letting people pet your puppy is the cause of your problems. Because mine are search and rescue dogs (and higher drive working dogs) they are used to people petting all over them since they were pups and don't have these problems. Consistent training and enforcing expectations. Wearing her out some before going out.


I totally agree - to me this is a training issue not a socialization error.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

NYCgsd said:


> She absolutely never downs unless I am holding a treat or a toy, and even then it's not consistent. I feel like she just hates downing, she sits consistently, but downs have been a problem since day 1. Ive worked on downs, and she hates doing it. She is not a lazy dog because she goes after every single bird, and loves to play, but downs is just something I dont think she will ever want to do.


How have you trained it? One thing I like to do right from the beginning is "capture" behaviors that the dog offers up naturally, and then mark and reward them. But even though she's 6 months old, you can still start now. Your dog lays down numerous times throughout the day, yes? Mark it and toss her a treat. Don't give a cue, just wait for her to do it on her own. If you toss the treat a few feet away she has to get up to get it. Wait for her to lay down again, mark and reward. Rinse, repeat. 

When I'm raising a puppy, I wear my treat bag from the time I get home from work until we go to bed. My pups learned that just because I have treats on my person that doesn't mean they're going to get any. Another approach is to have treats nearby but not on you. The pup learns that just because you DON'T have treats on your person that doesn't mean they won't get any. For me it's just easier to wear the bag so I'm always ready to reinforce behavior I want to encourage, and I've found that my dogs do become desensitized to the sight of the bag because it's a constant. I have a clicker attached to the bag, so I can click/treat, but you can also use a verbal marker. 

Once the pup is enthusiastically throwing herself into a down in order to get a treat, put it on cue by saying "down" right before she does it. Now the word is associated with the behavior, and you can work on duration, where she must remain in a down until released. You can reward in place a few times before releasing. Add eye contact to your criteria. If she likes balls, move from food to a toy reward. Cue the down, wait a few seconds, mark it and throw the ball. Make "down" mandatory for as many things as possible - she has to lay down until released while you put her food bowl on the floor. She has to lay down before you open the door to go for a walk. Anything you can think of. Put her in a down and step on the leash so she can't get up whenever you stop and chat with people you encounter.


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## ChloeGSD (Jul 16, 2016)

GypsyGhost said:


> First, I am just going to recommend that you find a trainer that is very familiar with GSD/working dogs. If you have already done that, great. Is that who is recommending a prong collar? I started using one on my male at 5.5 months. For my dog, it needed to happen. Redirection did nothing to stop his behavior. You know what did? A meaningful, well timed correction. Had to do it exactly once. Ta-da! Problem solved. That one correction made it very clear to him that the behavior he was displaying was not acceptable.
> 
> I understand why people are freaked out by prong collars and ecollars. Our society has made them out to be these torture devices. But let me ask you this... Is it more cruel to use a tool correctly that effectively communicates something to your dog, or is it more cruel to let everything become a muddled shade of grey because your timing is off with redirecting and your dog thinks it gets rewarded sonetimes for lunging at people? For me, I'd rather have a very black and white line of communication with my dog. Redirection works for a lot of dogs, but not all of them. Please don't make it out to seem like you are going to damage your dog by using other tools.


I agree, Sometimes redirection doesn't work for all dogs. The prong would be the best decision if it was really bad.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I totally agree - to me this is a training issue not a socialization error.


Ugh, (facepalm). I really appreciate all your guys' advice and all of you have been very sincere and helpful. But deep down I really feel it's a socialization issue. I live in NYC, I see 100k people a day. On walks with her as a pup, I literally had groups of people running towards me and her and just petting her for 10-15 mins at a time (less so now since shes bigger). She LOVES people. She's a very sweet dog and has absolutely zero aggression towards people which is a good thing in NYC, she never jumps up on children actually. It's very cute, she sits calmly and lets them pet her. Adults, she jumps up on them and likes to kiss and lick their faces, I am surprised by the number of adults who actually let her lick their lips and such, even I never let her do that to me. Leash pops help, but I feel bad having to do it every time she sees a person that makes eye contact with her. She sees eye contact as an invitation for a make-out session.:x
At night it's different, she is very watchful, if she sees people approaching she gets in a watch-dog stance and kind of tries to intimidate people to not approach. I think I have a great dog on my hands, but I'm worried that when shes older she will be a liability with the lunging and jumping. I think a slip or prong collar for a month will help curb the problem. 
As far as the downs go, if I have a box of blueberries in my hands she automatically downs (one of her favorite treats).


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Training issue.. Socialization issue... It matters not at this point what you think the problem is. The fact is, she has gotten away with this behavior and thinks it is acceptable. You have to find a way to let her know that it is not. And you have to be fair and consistent if you want it to stop.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Ugh, (facepalm). I really appreciate all your guys' advice and all of you have been very sincere and helpful. But deep down I really feel it's a socialization issue. I live in NYC, I see 100k people a day.


I've lived in Queens and raised dogs there. I used to take the pup into mqnhattan for socialization a few times a week. Some of the best dogs I've ever known were raised and socialised in big cities. I've made a point to drive downtown while raising my current pup for the same reason. All the sites, sounds, smells and people.

It is 100% a training issue. 

All my dogs are taught the "say hello" command. They are trained to remain neutral to strangers until given their command. 

All you need to walk down the street in NYC is a dog capable of loose leash walking who has a really strong LEAVE IT! Command. You can have the biggest social butterfly of a dog in the world, as soon as she starts acting interested in someone she gets told to leave it and a well trained butterfly will put her attention back on you. 

You're at 6 months and are having lots of issues. It's going to get worse over the next year. Bite the bullet. Hire a trainer who can observe your interactions with the pup and teach you how to be a better handler.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I've lived in Queens and raised dogs there. I used to take the pup into mqnhattan for socialization a few times a week. Some of the best dogs I've ever known were raised and socialised in big cities. I've made a point to drive downtown while raising my current pup for the same reason. All the sites, sounds, smells and people.
> 
> It is 100% a training issue.
> 
> ...


Agree 100%


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> All my dogs are taught the "say hello" command. They are trained to remain neutral to strangers until given their command.


 "Say Hello???" LOL ... I like how you throw that out there like ... well "everybody" knows this. But no no we don't?? Speaking for myself at least.

Slight aside ... save for the jumping thing (here) ... I think "JQP" pretty much figures well ... if my dogs is not "biting and jumping" on people ... I gots no problems !! 

I did/do much better with people and Aggression/Fearful dogs but my people friendly "Boxer" managed to seek "crazy" at home with company past me! :surprise:

If you could "expanded" on* "Say Hello"* it would be much appreciated. It's the simple things that often get overlooked.

For the record ... I'm certainly thrilled I did not have "Rocky" in an environment like "New York!!"

I had to do a lot out here (NV high desert) ... to "find" people for him to "ignore!"


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> "Say Hello???" LOL ... I like how you throw that out there like ... well "everybody" knows this. But no no we don't?? Speaking for myself at least.
> 
> Slight aside ... save for the jumping thing (here) ... I think "JQP" pretty much figures well ... if my dogs is not "biting and jumping" on people ... I gots no problems !!
> 
> ...


Haha yeah. Say hello is so second nature to me kinda like explaining "sit" lol

Step 1: allow social butterfly pup to approach a person and mark the encounter with the command "Say hello" or whatever you choose.

Step 2: repeat step 1. A lot.

Step 3a: once dog has a strong leave it command, when it shows interest in a person or dog, give command and reward for turning attention back to you. 

Step 3b: once the dog has an automatic sit trained into its walking routine praise for sitting by your side when you stop to chat.

Step 4: when you want your dog to interact with someone tell them say hello and encourage the dog to break the sit or turn it's attention to the stranger. Inappropriate behavior such as jumping is an immediate deal breaker and the dog must once again return to sitting by your side and ignoring the other person.

Step 5: repeat step 4 ad nauseum for the next decade or so lol

It actually comes in handy for non social butterflies too. I've had shy and aloof dogs that I used "say hello" with for situations where I needed a stranger to handle them. Such as when at the vet I could tell my boy to go say hi and he would walk over and get petted/have his physical examination. If your dog doesn't like interacting with people "say hello" can be trained via targeting / the touch command.

I'm a nutshell it's just marking a natural behavior, putting a command and some control onto it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ausdland said:


> I like your dog. Why should she go down when people or other dogs approach? That's submissive. I've had to explain that to my trainer. I want my dog to sit if I tell her to under those circumstances not be on her belly. Of course a controlled down is a must but not when she's approached imo.


Well ... "this" dog should be in a "Down" *because he has no "respect" for his owner.*

My dogs and "rescues" I handled have stood "calmly" by my side when I address people and "I" do that with a SLL ... no big deal. "Sit" works just fine for those who can, for those who "can't??" "Sit" is of very little value (in my view) for a dog with no "Respect" for his owner and if a dog "does not like down??" That is great! :grin2:

Train a "Solid Down" and the dog and owner have "options" ... you will "Sit" or you will "Down!" Your "choice" dog ... make a "good decision??"

"Rufus" doesn't like down is "not" acceptable, it's not his call. Those that can "do" those that can't "Find a Trainer" ...not that there is anything wrong with that. But they are not my audience.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Haha yeah. Say hello is so second nature to me kinda like explaining "sit" lol
> 
> Step 1: allow social butterfly pup to approach a person and mark the encounter with the command "Say hello" or whatever you choose.
> 
> ...


 Hm, OK gotta "ponder" ... because that is a most interesting use of "leave it!" 

I taught "leave It" but two syllables took to long "Struddell" (White Boxer) was always getting into new and different crap, so I went with "NO!" I was afraid she would think "No" was her name for a time there!  

OK then thanks ... as I suspected it is a "refinement" but ... as I "suspected" also ... you gotta put a "cap" on the friendly!

Most likely with Struddell that would have been a battle in discipline?? With Rocky OS WL GSD pretty much "no big deal" kinda like I don't care anyway. 

Thank You!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Hm, OK gotta "ponder" ... because that is a most interesting use of "leave it!"
> 
> I taught "leave It" but two syllables took to long "Struddell" (White Boxer) was always getting into new and different crap, so I went with "NO!" I was afraid she would think "No" was her name for a time there!
> 
> ...


"NO" and "Leave it" mean two completely different things. I'm not sure how you were to use them interchangeably unless your dog either didn't respect the word no or you taught "leave it" to be a correction. 

Around here "no" means stop what ever it is you are doing immediately. Like don't even breathe unless you want to have a come to jesus moment. It is something that I rarely actually have to use. It's a correction. 

"Leave it" on the other hand is a focus directional command like "watch me". It means "stop paying attention to that". A command to head off an undesired behavior before it begins. Like while walking and the dog sees a cat - he gets told to "leave it" meaning ignore that cat but don't stop heeling. Or if I drop a chocolate chip cookie - "leave it" means don't touch it. The command is given before the dog scarfs the cookie up. "No" would be said while the cookie is in his mouth.

So I can tell me pup "leave it" when there is a person they want to go play with. It's no skin off their back. It just means "mom doesn't want me to go say hi right now. Maybe later" where as no would be a correction for their friendly behavior.

Tldr; leave it keeps the dog in motion but just redirects their focus. No shuts the dog down


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NYCgsd said:


> Ugh, (facepalm). I really appreciate all your guys' advice and all of you have been very sincere and helpful. But deep down I really feel it's a socialization issue. I live in NYC, I see 100k people a day. On walks with her as a pup, I literally had groups of people running towards me and her and just petting her for 10-15 mins at a time (less so now since shes bigger). She LOVES people. She's a very sweet dog and has absolutely zero aggression towards people which is a good thing in NYC, she never jumps up on children actually. It's very cute, she sits calmly and lets them pet her. Adults, she jumps up on them and likes to kiss and lick their faces, I am surprised by the number of adults who actually let her lick their lips and such, even I never let her do that to me. Leash pops help, but I feel bad having to do it every time she sees a person that makes eye contact with her. She sees eye contact as an invitation for a make-out session.:x
> At night it's different, she is very watchful, if she sees people approaching she gets in a watch-dog stance and kind of tries to intimidate people to not approach. I think I have a great dog on my hands, but I'm worried that when shes older she will be a liability with the lunging and jumping. I think a slip or prong collar for a month will help curb the problem.
> As far as the downs go, if I have a box of blueberries in my hands she automatically downs (one of her favorite treats).


No, it's training. Your dog is socialized and she has decided jumping is acceptable. This isn't a criticism but an observation because I have done it too. When we make excuses for a behavior, we are allowing it to continue. Being around more people won't make yours jump less, only training her not to jump will do that.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

"she never jumps up on children actually. It's very cute, she sits calmly and lets them pet her."

I'm coming in late in the conversation but if she is well behaved around children, you could mark that behavior with a command of you choice, then praise. Once she connects the command with that behavior, say that command when adults approach. I think that lesson would be relatively easy since it is her nature to do it with children. Especially where you indicated that she is consistant .

I also think that once she learns the command while with children, when you give her that command towards an adult, you probably will have to pop the collar, but she probably will respond more quickly and more willingly because you have taught her something she already knows but did not know that the behavior applies to adults also. After the collar pop and she does sit for adult attention remember to praise her.

That's how I would start with this situation given the information you provided.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Or if I drop a chocolate chip cookie - "leave it" means don't touch it. The command is given before the dog scarfs the cookie up. "No" would be said while the cookie is in his mouth.


I thought you had thirty seconds to salvage that cookie. :grin2:


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I thought you had thirty seconds to salvage that cookie. :grin2:


I'm serious about my cookies. How do you think my dogs learn that "no" means the world is literally about to stop turning?


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I thought you had thirty seconds to salvage that cookie. :grin2:


In my house that cookie would be enveloped with dog hair in 30 seconds. :surprise:


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... "this" dog should be in a "Down" *because he has no "respect" for his owner.*
> 
> My dogs and "rescues" I handled have stood "calmly" by my side when I address people and "I" do that with a SLL ... no big deal. "Sit" works just fine for those who can, for those who "can't??" "Sit" is of very little value (in my view) for a dog with no "Respect" for his owner and if a dog "does not like down??" That is great! :grin2:
> 
> ...


That is a very strong statement chip. You really shouldn't say that the dog has no respect for his owner because at 6 months old I'm sure all of your dogs weren't 100% perfect saints. I have had plenty of dogs jumping up, being very drivey chasing squirrels and believe me my dogs had respect for me, to me it was just normal puppy behavior. I was actually just reading articles on working dogs to get myself prepared for my coming dog and many experts say to not even correct the jumping up too much because it will kill the pups drive to attack a decoy/bad guy. Dog training is not a science, there are many trainers and hundreds of opinions on how to train/correct every facet of a dogs behavior. He said that his pup doesn't jump on children so it leads me to believe that his dog is smart and knows that her weight will probably knock down a child. I'm sure as she grows she will get better and better with manners. The one thing I learned from my experience with dogs is that we sometimes tend to overthink things. I remember scouring the internet and libraries for the perfect solution to every problem and in the end I realized that a good dog is a good dog. A couple months of corrections is all it takes if you have a good, smart dog. Puppies are sometimes just immature, 6 months is way too early to say that the pup doesn't respect the owner. Look how much behavior threads are on this board about 11, 12, 18 month old dogs. 6 months is nothing. Let the pup be a pup while she's still a pup.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

ksotto333 said:


> In my house that cookie would be enveloped with dog hair in 30 seconds. :surprise:


Ahhh! Dog hair! The best condiment that goes with everything.:grin2:


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Ahhh! Dog hair! The best condiment that goes with everything.:grin2:


It's not a side dish?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> It's not a side dish?


No, but it doubles as a fashion accessory.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... "this" dog should be in a "Down" *because he has no "respect" for his owner.*
> 
> My dogs and "rescues" I handled have stood "calmly" by my side when I address people and "I" do that with a SLL ... no big deal. "Sit" works just fine for those who can, for those who "can't??" "Sit" is of very little value (in my view) for a dog with no "Respect" for his owner and if a dog "does not like down??" That is great! :grin2:
> 
> ...


Your audience? Are you the trainer in the YouTube videos you post?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

na


Julian G said:


> That is a very strong statement chip. You really shouldn't say that the dog has no respect for his owner because at 6 months old I'm sure all of your dogs weren't 100% perfect saints. I have had plenty of dogs jumping up, being very drivey chasing squirrels and believe me my dogs had respect for me, to me it was just normal puppy behavior. I was actually just reading articles on working dogs to get myself prepared for my coming dog and many experts say to not even correct the jumping up too much because it will kill the pups drive to attack a decoy/bad guy. Dog training is not a science, there are many trainers and hundreds of opinions on how to train/correct every facet of a dogs behavior. He said that his pup doesn't jump on children so it leads me to believe that his dog is smart and knows that her weight will probably knock down a child. I'm sure as she grows she will get better and better with manners. The one thing I learned from my experience with dogs is that we sometimes tend to overthink things. I remember scouring the internet and libraries for the perfect solution to every problem and in the end I realized that a good dog is a good dog. A couple months of corrections is all it takes if you have a good, smart dog. Puppies are sometimes just immature, 6 months is way too early to say that the pup doesn't respect the owner. Look how much behavior threads are on this board about 11, 12, 18 month old dogs. 6 months is nothing. Let the pup be a pup while she's still a pup.


Although I may not agree necessarily with this entire post or some of the specifics, all in all it is a good one. 

I don't think a puppy or young dog should be "squashed", regardless if it will be used for sport, work or a companion. Isn't part of adding a dog to our lives is to enjoy what a dog naturally brings?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Lol!He's not featured in the videos,but there is a secret Chip18 fan clubYo should post some videos of you and Rocky training though!


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> Lol!He's not featured in the videos,but there is a secret Chip18 fan clubYo should post some videos of you and Rocky training though!


I appreciate reading some of Chip's posts and training videos he shares. 
We are talking about a 6 mo old, social, happy, confident puppy who jumps on ppl that approach her that I'm sure will learn better manners in time with continued practice/training. Sounds just like my pup. I don't ever want my pup to go down when approached by other people or dogs. I'm no expert though.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

ausdland said:


> I appreciate reading some of Chip's posts and training videos he shares.
> We are talking about a 6 mo old, social, happy, confident puppy who jumps on ppl that approach her that I'm sure will learn better manners in time with continued practice/training. Sounds just like my pup. I don't ever want my pup to go down when approached by other people or dogs. I'm no expert though.


I agree!I don't expect my dogs to show submissive behavior when approached either.I thought Chip was referring to this particular dog's reluctance to down at all under any circumstances.
And I also couldn't resist having some fun with Chip


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> I agree!I don't expect my dogs to show submissive behavior when approached either.I thought Chip was referring to this particular dog's reluctance to down at all under any circumstances.
> And I also couldn't resist having some fun with Chip


Ah, ok. Yes I agree. A pup must learn down and place as chip puts it. I use the word spot instead of place. 
OP-just want to add when you're training off make sure to tell ppl to stop paying attention to and touching your puppy until she's got all 4 in the floor and has calmed a bit. I still have to work on that sometimes at 11 months old so maybe I suck as a trainer/owner..


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

ausdland said:


> Ah, ok. Yes I agree. A pup must learn down and place as chip puts it. I use the word spot instead of place.
> OP-just want to add when you're training off make sure to tell ppl to stop paying attention to and touching your puppy until she's got all 4 in the floor and has calmed a bit. I still have to work on that sometimes at 11 months old so maybe I suck as a trainer/owner..


Hi. I was thinking about it. She sits and waits for her food, she "outs" with 95% consistency. I will just try do with greetings the same thing I taught her with food. The problem is people don't listen to direction and just go pet her without permission. I need one of those "caution" leashes.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Hi. I was thinking about it. She sits and waits for her food, she "outs" with 95% consistency. I will just try do with greetings the same thing I taught her with food. The problem is people don't listen to direction and just go pet her without permission. I need one of those "caution" leashes.


I've got no problem telling ppl don't approach my dog. No explanation required.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> Hi. I was thinking about it. She sits and waits for her food, she "outs" with 95% consistency. I will just try do with greetings the same thing I taught her with food. The problem is people don't listen to direction and just go pet her without permission. I need one of those "caution" leashes.


I think I need a caution leash that looks like police tape,lol! Samson has a vest that states clearly Do Not Pet.It's pretty effective but some people still ignore,"sigh."
I have a friend that would say Off! whenever her dog jumped up instead of before.So he jumps really well on command nowShe's a decent horse trainer but dogs not so much.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ausdland said:


> Your audience? Are you the trainer in the YouTube videos you post?


LOL ... thanks but no that's not me. 

I looked me up per the BoaderReader thing and I found Chip18 on Twitter ... turns out I'm about 25 years younger and no longer "African American??? When that happen?? I find that at least as "unsettling" as being a "newlie"


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Therapy Dog Vest, Service Dog Vest & Adopt Me Vest No touch no talk no eye contact dog training vest Therapy Dog Vest, Service Dog Vest & Adopt Me Vest

You can't pretend a dog is a service dog, but there are vests and harnesses that warn people. 

I have met a woman who is blind and people always pet her guide dog. It's horrible for her, because the dog then thinks it's alright to break a Stay and that it's now playtime.

https://www.amazon.com/Dean-Tyler-P...B00D08V7V0/ref=sr_1_3?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&

https://www.amazon.com/Please-velcr...B008RX88OC/ref=sr_1_2?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> That is a very strong statement chip. You really shouldn't say that the dog has no respect for his owner because at 6 months old I'm sure all of your dogs weren't 100% perfect saints. I have had plenty of dogs jumping up, being very drivey chasing squirrels and believe me my dogs had respect for me, to me it was just normal puppy behavior. I was actually just reading articles on working dogs to get myself prepared for my coming dog and many experts say to not even correct the jumping up too much because it will kill the pups drive to attack a decoy/bad guy. Dog training is not a science, there are many trainers and hundreds of opinions on how to train/correct every facet of a dogs behavior. He said that his pup doesn't jump on children so it leads me to believe that his dog is smart and knows that her weight will probably knock down a child. I'm sure as she grows she will get better and better with manners. The one thing I learned from my experience with dogs is that we sometimes tend to overthink things. I remember scouring the internet and libraries for the perfect solution to every problem and in the end I realized that a good dog is a good dog. A couple months of corrections is all it takes if you have a good, smart dog. Puppies are sometimes just immature, 6 months is way too early to say that the pup doesn't respect the owner. Look how much behavior threads are on this board about 11, 12, 18 month old dogs. 6 months is nothing. Let the pup be a pup while she's still a pup.


 Well yes my flair for the "dramatic" is well known I'm sure?? :grin2:

And I understand what your point is, something along the lines of a "Green Dog" mature dog with very little if any formal obedience training so you can see who/what the dogs is. Serious working dog stuff ... that's my I understanding?? I don't hang out in the IPO sport dog or working dog forums, not my world. 

And AFAIK as I know the "OP" is a "pet person??" And she already knows pretty much who this dog is. He is a jumper and a bitter and unless she "steps it up" he's only going to get "better" at it! Or I don't know ...maybe "this" is the one dog that will "outgrow the behaviour??"

I have never had a "puppy" continue to jump on everyone and bite the crap out of me at 7 months?? I would imagine that would start to get pretty ... "irksome" at some point?? And seven months from now ... it's not gonna be so cute (my word) if this continues. I could go on about dogs that act like "this" jumping and biting, getting turned into shelters and put down ... everyday.

Those owners screwed up and there done with it and the dogs pay. 
*Unlike the "OP" here those owners chose "Not" to "Out Think" there dog.* Not being skilled at training a dog is not a crime ... everyone has to start somewhere. 

And again I'm "Not" saying this is the "OP," they have seen "issues" and they are now working on getting it right. That's is how it's done. If I don't know ... find someone that does.

But for those that want to go the fully mature "Green Dog" route?? And want to just skip the puppy stuff. Most likely you can get a bargain price on a quality GSD at your local shelter or GSD Rescue. Pretty sure those places have no shortage of dogs with "no formal obedience training." 

The old "to much dog for me" thing ... so "Off" you go!


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Well yes my flair for the "dramatic" is well known I'm sure?? :grin2:
> 
> And I understand what your point is, something along the lines of a "Green Dog" mature dog with very little if any formal obedience training so you can see who/what the dogs is. Serious working dog stuff ... that's my I understanding?? I don't hang out in the IPO sport dog or working dog forums, not my world.
> 
> ...


Hi, Chip. The dog does not bite, I stopped that problem over a month ago. I was working on my problem today and I can see a bit of an improvement. I got her to sit and wait for her food at 3 months, I should have used the same method on greeting people. It's just hard when people don't listen to me and just run up to her without my permission. Today I had friends and family ignore her until I gave the ok, she is still not fully "cured" but I can see a turn in the right direction.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

NYCgsd said:


> It's just hard when people don't listen to me and just run up to her without my permission.


Dogs are often easier to train than people! If you see people running towards her, can you abruptly turn and walk in the opposite direction?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> Hi, Chip. The dog does not bite, I stopped that problem over a month ago. I was working on my problem today and I can see a bit of an improvement. I got her to sit and wait for her food at 3 months, I should have used the same method on greeting people. It's just hard when people don't listen to me and just run up to her without my permission. Today I had friends and family ignore her until I gave the ok, she is still not fully "cured" but I can see a turn in the right direction.


OK ... understood ... still working on a long detailed explanation as to the why of the "Down" in anycase ... if you don't need to use "Down" don't sweat it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Dogs are often easier to train than people! If you see people running towards her, can you abruptly turn and walk in the opposite direction?


Ha--I find that they just don't listen. This just happened to me at the vet of all places. Robyn is a big GSD, she is also in some pain now due to her surgery and stuff she is normally good with she has been slightly more testy. I had to literally body block her do the dummies with and without dogs would understand.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ausdland said:


> I appreciate reading some of Chip's posts and training videos he shares.
> We are talking about a 6 mo old, social, happy, confident puppy who jumps on ppl that approach her that I'm sure will learn better manners in time with continued practice/training. Sounds just like my pup. I don't ever want my pup to go down when approached by other people or dogs. I'm no expert though.


Aww geeze up again. And yet again ...not "addressing" you ausdland. 

Addressing a larger point which you raised. The "Down" ... people "need" to have "options!" People that can properly train a dog ... don't need "Down." They tell there to "Sit" and the dogs "Sits" well great for "us" but what about an owners whose dogs "won't" Sit??? Let alone the lunging and jumping at people "Crap!" 

A dog that has little interest in what an owner's says, is a dog that should be in a "Down." And that "Down" should be at least 5 feet away, from people, if a dog has a "pattern" of lunging, jumping or snapping at people a "history of poor choices." In anycase with such a dog, People ought not to be "touching" the dog anyway. 

If people with an "unpredictable" dog don't want to get sued?? Then do "that." But hey ... if they don't care ... go with sit, with Mr Unpredictable and let someone "Pet him." Hopefully it works out???But ... what they've done is trade off, there "safety margin" now "Mr Unpredictable is "Sitting" within three feet of someone! 

I never actually measured it with a stopwatch but ... I'm pretty sure "Mr Unpredictable" can strike much quicker from a "Sit" than he can from a "Down??" So now JQP has put there dog in a postion where he can make a "Poor Choice" if he choses?? And I'd be willing to bet than an owner that can't train 'Sit" would be be ill equipped to stop that dog?? 

The approach I recommend is safe! I only recommend "Down" with "Dog Behaving Badly" 

Five to Six feet away ... and hands freaking off for "Strangers." The dog that lunges jumps or snaps ... should be in a Sit said once and then a "Down" ( which may need to be taught first) if he "won't Sit! 

Give the dog an option Sit or Down, Sit is optional ... "Down" is not with "Mr Unpredictable." Do that for a week (no contact) and walk the dog and find people to ignore. 

Tell the dog "Sit!" The dog will then "figure out" that if the owner "Stops and Talks" hmm if I don't Sit??? I will have to "Down??" So ... I chose "Sit!" Now "Mr Unpredictable" has learned how to "Make Good Choices!" 

And I don't use "treats" or "misdirection" I "expect" my dogs and dogs I work with "to deal with it!" I'm not a freaking "treat machine" I don't get rewards for not being a "butt hole!" I expect the same from my dogs.

And if one takes that approach with "Mr Unpredictable" they will find that "Mr Unpredictable" is not so much "unpredictable." They will be able to read there dog "because" they now understand what he looks like when he is "Calm!" When the dog no longer "appears" stressed out, then the option of allowing someone pet him becomes available. 

And for an owner that is "unsure of there dog or there ability to keep people out of there dogs face ... use a muzzle! Once they have a better understanding of there behaviour ... they can drop the muzzle.

There job for awhile will still be to keep people out of there dogs face but they will find that they have a lot less crazy to deal with. 

As for me personally ... well yeah the above 
is the essence but by and large if someone "observed" me walking a dog ... they would see or hear nothing! 

The Sit as shown by Jeff here:





I found amazing! No need to teach a "Sit" as a separate command! That could be done everytime you walk you dog until the dog gets the idea! I stop you sit ... pretty much that simple! 

I never did that ... I did not use "Don't Pet" vest which "I" feel people are to ignorant to heed in anycase! The "Job" of keeping people out of my dogs face was on me! And "I" am good at my job!

My dog "Rocky" OS WL GSD was a bite risk ... and I was taking "Zero" chances with him! He would go behind me if it was clear that someone was interested in petting him and people would have to get past "ME!" To get to him, I made that "Crystal Clear" and for a long time ... I never said a word to "strangers" a pretty much don't even ask signal delivered through body language.

And with my dogs and dogs I work with ... "I" don't do "Sit" or "Down" I tell the dogs "Nothing!" I postion a SLL high and sung we work it out for oh I don't know 2 or three minutes and then we ... go for a walk.

If I stop the dog stops, his job is to not be a fool. Stand there "calmly" and we're good. Thus far ... they all seem to get that. Great for me ... but not of much help to others??? 

Thus ... the rather long winded post, but in a nutshell "Calm Confident Leadership " is how that works and now people know ... the rest of the story!


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Aww geeze up again. And yet again ...not "addressing" you ausdland.
> 
> Addressing a larger point which you raised. The "Down" ... people "need" to have "options!" People that can properly train a dog ... don't need "Down." They tell there to "Sit" and the dogs "Sits" well great for "us" but what about an owners whose dogs "won't" Sit??? Let alone the lunging and jumping at people "Crap!"
> 
> ...


Hi again chip,
I stopped watching this guys youtube videos. I feel that his answer to everything is a prong collar. Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong. If my dog continues having problems I will use a prong collar, many great and obedient dogs need it. I was just trying to figure out a way without the use of one just yet.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

NYCgsd said:


> Hi again chip,
> I stopped watching this guys youtube videos. I feel that his answer to everything is a prong collar. Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong. If my dog continues having problems I will use a prong collar, many great and obedient dogs need it. I was just trying to figure out a way without the use of one just yet.


To be honest, I think you should put the collar on and quit stretching things out. Its going to be harder then it ever had to be. Don't get so hung up on the collar itself, use it correctly and teach your dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> NYCgsd said:
> 
> 
> > Hi again chip,
> ...


Very true!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> Hi again chip,
> I stopped watching this guys youtube videos. I feel that his answer to everything is a prong collar. Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong. If my dog continues having problems I will use a prong collar, many great and obedient dogs need it. I was just trying to figure out a way without the use of one just yet.


The "Prong Collar" is the issue??? LOL ... well I'm not the guy to "convince" people to use a "Prong Collar" ... well not exactly???

But as they say ..."don't cut off your nose to spite yor face." I am not a "Prong Collar" guy ... not my thing. I like to "roll old school" my dog a leash and my car keys and I'm out the door. And note, I said a leash if it's not's a SLL?? I could use a regular leash as one as my dogs don't always have collars on them indoors.


If you have an easy dog ... then you can most likely use whatever you want but if you have a more difficult dog or a dog with "issues" ... then you "have" to use a "Real Tool." Those would be ... a flat leash and collar, a SLL a "Prong Collar or an "E -Collar." 

And these days "everyone seems to be using both a "Prong Collar" and an "E-Collar." That last one strikes me as kinda "nutty" but that's what they do. 

So bear in mind "serious" Trainer ( I don't count Trainers who don't believe in not giving a dog "consequences for making poor choices") as being of much use to people with dogs that have "serious issues."

So ... out of my list .. option one, Flat Buckle and Regular Collar ... no one that I am aware of does that?? Option two SLL well ... there is always that guy he is in my SLL thread but ... here you go.:






And a slight aside:

When I got my first dog (Gunther) American Band Dawg with him did "actually" attend a "puppy" class ... the first thing I was shown was this:





I decided ... they were wrong and I knew better! So I half read a Book on how to use a "Prong Collar" and got that wrong! When I got into the Boxers and Boxer derivatives thing ... it seemed to me that they were not dogs that would tolerate a lot of "Ham fisted" handling??? So back to basics ... Flat leash and buckle collar! And I was very good with those ..."KISS." Worked out better for "me."

The SLL thing, I'd never heard of one??? Rescue event they handed me a "Fearful Boxer" said be careful he "Pull's and handed me a "SLL!" I looked at it and was like ... whatever??? Saw the little tab thingies?? I thought hmmm "OK???" Positioned the tabby things high and snug. The dog resisted for a minuet or two like what the heck is this??? Then he stropped, stood there and sat??! That took less than oh 3 minuets?? I said "OK" and off we went ...he was a great dog!

I never looked back at using anything else. But the concept behind the SLL is this "Crap" that Cesar came up with ... "instead of actually" explaining to people what he does with a SLL I suppose.:

https://www.cesarsway.com/shop/pack-leader-collar

It's just a fancy way of keeping the little tab thingies high and snug. Soon as you start walking a dog they tend to relax. and the collar drops low on the dogs neck. In my experiance ... The Illusion Collar is just silly looking over kill. It's designed for the lazy, if your walking your dog and and see a situation developing, where you may need more control ... you reach down and preposition the tab thingies, before "they are "needed" No big deal. 

And SLL vs Prong ... well a SLL, is kinda like trying to control a dog with a wet noddle compared to a "Prong." You'd need much more "input" with a SLL, the "wrist flick thing" would be a "take up the slack and a more exaggerated motion??"Compared with a SLL. Still a light touch ...but more user input. But done correctly with a SLL taking up the slack is... a pretty transparent motion. All around the "Prong" requires much less user "input" and "skill" compared to a SLL. And I've heard Jeff say you can't "Correct a Dog with a SLL." 



But ... once again and just to be "Clear" pretty much all "serious, competent" dog trainers use a "Prong Collar!" And by and large they all use a "SLL" from time to time. But for most people ...a "SLL" is a time consuming and difficult tool to use and most likely a time consuming skill to transfer, I don't know?? But I do know "Pro's" deal with a lot of dogs and clients and time is money. 


So ... whether it be a Regular Collar, (Martingale), SLL or Prong Collar if any of those are used "properly" a dog will barely realize he has anything on his neck. The only caveat I give is "use a real tool and use it properly." As I am want to say ..."Don't be this guy":











Training a dog "properly" is about the user not the "tool." :grin2:


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