# 10 month old + aggression



## [email protected]

Hello All,

I have a 10 month old in tact male and we are experiencing so much aggression from him that we are at our wits end. He bites whenever he does not get his way. If you take him in a direction he does not want to go, he will jump and bite. We have done NILF, he doesn't sleep on our bed or couch, he sleeps in an ex-pen, I walk through doors first, he is very nice in the house and settles well. We have had him in classes for 5 months and we have had him examined by a vet and analyzed by trainers. We are told he is a very good dog. He comes from a good breeding. This week he severly bit my husband when we took him to the vet. He did not want to be touched even though I have touched him all over since he came home at 8 weeks.

I want this to work out. Please help. You guys are great.


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## Clyde

You need to find a local behaviourist or trainer. I see you have seen some what was the result. What did they say about his behaviour? Not all are created equal. It sounds like he has learned to protest and get his way by jumping and mouthing.

Hard to say what happened at the vet. How is he normally with people other than you and your husband? How has he been at other vet visits?


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## PaddyD

Clyde said:


> You need to find a local behaviourist or trainer. I see you have seen some what was the result. What did they say about his behaviour? Not all are created equal. It sounds like he has learned to protest and get his way by jumping and mouthing.


I agree. Somewhere along the way he learned that he could get away (or his way) with biting. He needs to unlearn it fast, especially at his age and size.


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## [email protected]

I am told he is dominant and hard. He is a sweetheart in the house but he is furious if he doesn't get his way on walks, etc. He is not good at the vets. He does not want to be examined. In the house he puts his teeth around our hands. I usually put a short leash on him and put him in his house.


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## [email protected]

How do you unlearn it?


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## Shade

Try and find a trainer in the area who specializes with aggression, ask for references from former clients as well. The sooner you get training the better


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## codmaster

Have you ever corrected him for any bad behavior? How long have you had him?


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## [email protected]

We have had him since he was 8 weeks old. We use a prong collar on him and I correct him, but he is not phased. I understand that I have to be the alpha, but I am at a loss as to what to do. We have never physically punished him other than the prong collar.


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## [email protected]

If he could say "who cares" he would.


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## onyx'girl

I would muzzle him at the vet...some dogs just need it and it helps them to settle, because they know the option to actually bite is taken away. 
I agree with finding a good trainer to help you. He is redirecting his frustration onto you thru bites. What are you doing to work his mind and body? Do you ever play tug? That is a great outlet for dogs that want the oral release.


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## cliffson1

He does not sound like a good fit for you and your family. You are probably too inexperienced for this type of dog....the reason I say this is because you state the trainer said he is a good dog. Sometimes strong dogs gain control, and it is very difficult for all family members to recover it because of fear or lack of knowledge, or even refusal to do what it takes to regain it. I would ask the trainer or behavoirist to be candid with you and tell you if they think this can have a happy ending. Not trying to sound bleak, but trying to be honest.


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## codmaster

[email protected] said:


> If he could say "who cares" he would.


 
if your dog doesn't recognize a correction, it wasn't "motivating" enough. Sort of like, if a speeding ticket was only $5, would you pay much attention to it?

At this point in his life and based on what you have said; I would also recommend that you have a "pro" (behaviorist or trainer) who is used to working sucessfully with large aggressive dogs.

No family dog should ever even think of acting aggressively toward anyone in their family. Your guy sounds like he needs to be made very aware of that, but a pro should definetly be involved in it. At this point I don't think it would be a good DIY project to straighten him out.


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## Clyde

What did the trainers suggest you do?
What you probably need to do cannot very well be conveyed over the internet and it is probably best you have an experienced trainer working with you to make sure things are done correctly.

What I will say is I would have the dog on a mendota slip lead or a dominant dog type collar. When dogs protest I just show them that it has no effect on me. I follow through until they give in I do not let the actions of the dog change what I expect of them. But really to avoid making a mistake I would find someone to help you before you put yourself in that situation again. You do not want to keep practising this type of behaviour with him. It will continue to escalate.

Has this dog ever broke the skin or does he just put his teeth on you?

The questions about his activities and outlets was good. How often is he exercised each day and what type?


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## [email protected]

I would hate to think that. I am so emotionally invested in love for this dog. He is a strong and powerful dog and is very loving. What can I do?


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## msvette2u

If you read back at past posts, this dog has been biting for the past 5mos. +

I agree, Anya. If you cannot find a *very* experienced person to take him in (no kids, lots of experience, etc.) or cannot give him back to the breeder, I'd consider putting him to sleep, that is, it's sad for a puppy to be sentenced to death but then again, it's not pleasant to have a dog who is so willing to bite in your home.

Please exhaust your avenues, first contact the breeder and see if they can help, if not perhaps your trainer knows of someone who can take him.


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## onyx'girl

What do you do? Do you train, besides having evals done? 
Track, tug/bitework(this is controversial if you don't have obedience), obedience? Are you in a club w/ him? 
Biting when visiting the vet is common....stress will make a dog lash out. That is one reason muzzles are available at every office, or buy your own so he isn't set up to fail. A wire basket muzzle works great, condition him to it before the visit in short sessions. Are you in touch w/ his breeder?


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## [email protected]

I am a stay at home mom. He is walked for an hour in the morning in the hills, plays during the day, and in the afternoon I kick balls around and he chases them until he is tired. I don't think exercise is the answer. It is more like he calls the shots. Can this behavior be changed? He breaks the skin.


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## GregK

Where's his obedience at? What does he know how to do and is he reliable at it?


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## [email protected]

Yes we train daily. I am always thinking of new games. We will get a muzzle. He is in obedience class with dozens of dogs and he is neither dog or people agressive.


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## onyx'girl

I didn't mean what do YOU do career-wise, or whatever, but what do you do as far as training....sounds like he's bred for working and was placed in a companion home. Even so, he needs to know that his outbursts are unacceptable...
Do you play tug??? Do you track w/ him??


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## [email protected]

We play all kinds of games. I started playing tug but he becomes so excited that I thought I shouldn't continue for safety sake. He is very smart and learns quickly. He knows all the commands like stay, sit, stand, circle, back, halt, etc. He just recently stopped staying on his bed when I told him to stay. He just walks away so I put him back with the prong collar, but he doesn't stay. I am really perplexed.


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## Twyla

Agree definitely a behaviorist, that has verifiable experience with GSD. I do question the use of a prong, it may be amping up his behavior.

This is the muzzle I use with Woolf when needed, strong wire, so far has survived the pawing at it. Order over the weekend, could probably have it by mid-week with standard shipping.


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## onyx'girl

How are you rewarding him when you train? Ball, food? I think he needs a release of more physical nature. Why does he need to stay on his bed? The prong correction may be conflicting with that...making it a 'bad' place. 
Crates are a safe place, maybe get one and use it instead of the x-pen.


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## [email protected]

He has a crate and an ex-pen. I train him with food. He a real foody. I need him to go to his bed when we have visitors so he calms down before greeting them. I try doing impulse control like having him sit before and after we go outside. Also he will sit and look me in the eye before I release him to eat or drink.


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## onyx'girl

Why do you think tug is not safe? Are you intimidated by him? If so, he must know it and uses it to his advantage. You control the tug game and it ends on your terms...but he should be able to win and play too so he has an outlet for his drives.


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## Clyde

You really will not find what you need on this forum. The fact that you cannot control the game of tug and it doesn't feel safe says loads. You NEED to find someone who can hands on help you!


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## codmaster

[email protected] said:


> I am a stay at home mom. He is walked for an hour in the morning in the hills, plays during the day, and in the afternoon I kick balls around and he chases them until he is tired. I don't think exercise is the answer. It is more like he calls the shots. Can this behavior be changed? He breaks the skin.


 
I would guess that generally it can be changed BUT only with professional help and a REAL committment on everyone in your family!


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## msvette2u

My concern with this, if you read back, she's been here asking for advice for quite some time, got the same answers (NILIF, leash the dog to you, "Mind Games", obedience, etc) and the dog is still _running_ them.
At 8mos., something has to give :-\


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## codmaster

That is agreed.

Time for a "change of attitude" for the dog!


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## Clyde

Yeah I just read the previous thread. I hate to say it but I do think that due to lack of knowledge this dog has learned that he runs the show and can control and get what he wants because he intimidates you. He needs to be in a home with someone who is not intimidated by him. If he starts out fresh with someone new who knows what they are doing I wouldn't be surprised if he does great. What happened last time the thread just died but all this was basically predicted in the last thread.

It sounds like you have done a lot of motivational stuff with him to get him to behave. But their comes a time with most dogs when you do need to do a more direct and confrontational approach and I feel when a dog acts the way he did at 6-7months he absolutely needed to understand that the behaviour was unacceptable and treats or toys should have had nothing to do with it if you know what I mean.


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## chelle

I'm just rambling a little here, because after all it is 4AM and for some insane reason I am still awake?

Do you feel confident in handling this dog? You said you've worked NILIF, but more specifically, what do you mean? You mention you play many games, and that's great, but what about some basic obedience work? Some basic obedience work gives both of you confidence. Just speaking for myself, learning to teach my dog obedience commands gives me confidence as the owner, and I think my dog also benefits greatly because he knows what I want and knows he will be rewarded by doing what I want. Might not be a treat, it might only be a pat, but it'll always be a good thing. It removes the "gray area" of behavior. I want a sit, he gives a sit, good boy. Anything but a sit isn't cutting it. Does that make any sense? 

In other words, can you say sit, down, stay, etc and the dog does it? I'm guessing you may say no to the above and maybe that is why he has decided he rules the home. He's not required to comply and he knows he can still have his games. Just a guess from what I'm reading.

I'd definitely bring a professional in not only to "analyze" the dog, but to help you find what might be weak spots in training methods. It is really eye-opening what another person sees from the outside that you are completely unaware of. I've been helped a lot by people watching me and pointing things out. I never would've known otherwise.


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## Kaity

[email protected] said:


> I am a stay at home mom. He is walked for an hour in the morning in the hills, plays during the day, and in the afternoon I kick balls around and he chases them until he is tired. I don't think exercise is the answer. It is more like he calls the shots. Can this behavior be changed? He breaks the skin.


Exercise isn't just physical, it has to be mentally stimulating and tiring as well. Somehow I don't think 'kicking a ball around' is as useful as teaching a good recall and playing with two balls (soon as he drops one, immediately praise and throw the other so he's always on the go and move around a lot so when he looks back, he has to re-route)

Maybe he has too much drive? If you're using the pinch collar incorrectly, it won't faze him at all. I put my dogs pinch higher up on her neck almost under her chin and it's not loose enough to hang off of her neck but not too night to choke her or be uncomfortable while she's wearing it, a small tug won't work as a correction. If he's jumping up and biting, correct him. Keep him on the leash and when he goes to jump on somebody, snap the collar and put him in a sit or down-stay. ALWAYS have him doing something.. get him a big bully stick or freeze a kong during the day..


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## Kaity

[email protected] said:


> We play all kinds of games. I started playing tug but he becomes so excited that I thought I shouldn't continue for safety sake. He is very smart and learns quickly. He knows all the commands like stay, sit, stand, circle, back, halt, etc. He just recently stopped staying on his bed when I told him to stay. He just walks away so I put him back with the prong collar, but he doesn't stay. I am really perplexed.


Is he crate trained? With the stay thing.. start from square one. How did you teach stay in the first place? Put him in a down-stay, walk away or make movements while telling him good stay once in a while. Re-teach it instead of expecting him to just 'get it'. If he thinks he can overrule you, which he is doing by frustrating you by now staying, he's going to be laughing at you pretty much. There's been a few times where I've had to re-teach commands to Vida out of the blue, she'd stop responding to them. Also, use higher value treats for training activities. I get feed kibble/raw and cut up those tubes of dog food that look like giant pepperoni and I get such a great response out of that. Always always keep it positive. No dog will want to listen if it's being scolded. My mom used to yell at Vida like she was in trouble if she went down the stairs "VIDA!! HERE!! NOW!!" Why would she listen or come back if she thought she was in trouble? I stepped in and spoke in an excited voice and she came running back upstairs happy to follow any commands given. There's also a lot of threads on here about how people strengthen their bonds with their dogs, maybe have a peek through those see if you can find something useful to build a more positive relationship with him.

Another option for you might be to have him boarded and trained. It can be expensive, but to have your pup rehabilitated is worth it instead of potentially giving him away or not having the heart to and letting him get worse.


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## JakodaCD OA

I think you have gotten some great advice here. AT 8 months if your still having problems like this, something isn't working

As for the vet's office, there are alot of dogs that just don't like/are scared at the vets office. A muzzle is a good thing to use for vet visits, protects the people and the dog. Get him used to one at home so by the time you go for a vet visit, he's used to one.

If he behaves himself at classes , sounds like classes are the outlet he needs to control himself/and he's liking classes. so I would UP the classes.

While you may think he doesn't need any more physical/mental stimulation, I think you'll find the more you give him the more it will benefit him.

I would be taking him OUT in public, shopping centers/ busy places where he can work his brain as well as burn off that extra he's got going.

I also would tend to agree with Cliff, he may be to much for you, he sounds like a high energy dog that really wants to get out and "do" something. 

Even at 8 months old, you can't expect 'perfection' when it comes to obedience training. If your trainer thinks he's a good dog, maybe ask your trainer for some extra help as in one on ones.


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## msvette2u

> If he's jumping up and biting, correct him


This is the type thing that's getting her/him bitten already.
I think this dog has his owner's number - coupled with lack of exercise - and here again, the OP asked _before_ she bought this dog, how much exercise would it take??

The OP was only interested in a working dog/working prospect, if I remember correctly and read back at intro posts. People replied that it takes a crazy amount of exercise and mental stimulation to keep a dog like this on an even keel and happy.

But the problem is, he's apparently much more than they bargained for 

To the OP, you only seem to be answering a few out of dozens of posts - ARE you working with the breeder on this??


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## LoveEcho

msvette2u said:


> This is the type thing that's getting her/him bitten already.
> I think this dog has his owner's number - coupled with lack of exercise - and here again, the OP asked _before_ she bought this dog, how much exercise would it take??
> 
> *The OP was only interested in a working dog/working prospect*, if I remember correctly and read back at intro posts. People replied that it takes a crazy amount of exercise and mental stimulation to keep a dog like this on an even keel and happy.
> 
> But the problem is, he's apparently much more than they bargained for
> 
> To the OP, you only seem to be answering a few out of dozens of posts - ARE you working with the breeder on this??


This confuses the heck out of me. It doesn't sound like she has any intentions of doing actual work with him (I don't mean as an insult, I mean it sounds like he's a companion...basic obedience a few minutes a day doesn't cut it). It's so sad that this happens so often; people who are very inexperienced pursue a dog they are warned they can't handle, not realizing that "learning on your feet" doesn't work with a dog who thinks one step ahead of you. It's like giving a teenager with a learner's permit a Lamborghini. It ends up being a nightmare for the owner who is deprived of the pet they wanted, and a nightmare for the dog who is not getting the stimulation it needs. 

OP-- why were you so intent on a working dog?

I agree with others- the use of a prong on an already reactive dog can quickly become self-defeating. I hope your trainer is able to help you guys reach some harmony, with some hard work


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## msvette2u

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...gh-energy-working-line-puppy.html#post2158828

 :shrug:


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## cliffson1

First, this issue has nothing to do with it being a working line puppy. There are thousands of WL puppies existing in normal home without this issue. This appears to be an issue of a very strong dog that has not been handled firmly enough early on, and now it is a problem. But this also sounds like a dog that in more experienced hands would adapt to the environment. Again, get a professional trainer(preferably one that works with aggressive breeds), evaluate the dog and YOU and ask them for a candid opinion of the fit. This is not a time for emotional review, but rather to make pragmatic decision. You can always get a nice WL puppy that will fit in the lifestyle you have described. But to be fair to the dog, he needs to be in a place of structure and his respect as much as he needs love.....Good Luck!


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## [email protected]

Thank you everyone for your wonderful suggestions. I appreciate it. I will start using your great ideas right away.


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## Verivus

You either need to get a professional trainer or rehome this dog because you have had no progress in months. This is not fair to the dog.


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## Clyde

The OP does not really seem that interested in what has been said or reply to any questions asked


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## JakodaCD OA

Well I re read your post from back in June, you admitted then, you didn't want to have to exercise 'alot'..it sounds like you got the type of dog you really didn't want

I am middle aged, and I have a high energy, on the go working line, that requires alot of physical as well as mental exercise, she'd probably drive you batts She does have an off switch, but when she's 'on' she is ready to go go go.

Honestly, it sounds like this dog would be better off in a home that can give him what he needs, not only structure, but someone who can handle his 'needs'. 

He sounds like a good dog in the wrong home, you need to do what's best FOR HIM, not for YOU. Doesn't mean your a failure, just means you can't give him what he needs.

If your determined to work him, then take the suggestions given here , find a professional who can evaluate BOTH of you , do what they suggest and go from there.


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## jetscarbie

I just wanted to chime in on high energy dogs. My dog is "keep going" dog. I could probably run/jog/hike 6 or 7 miles and it wouldn't even faze him at all. I must keep my dog occupied at all times. Run/jog/hike, then I have to play mental games with him, hide and seek, teach him new things, etc. It's a must around here. They get so frustrated if they don't use their energy.

OP, you said you walk your dog for an hour. I know with my dog.....a walk...for one hour.... would drive him batty. My walking stroll is slow. To my dog, it probably feels like I'm a senior citizen walking with a walker. He doesn't wanna go that slow. He would be so frustrated if I started out our day that slow. I actually start our day out by throwing him balls and sticks. I let him work up a little sweat that way....then I top it off with a jog to get us going. I work up from a jog, to a run for awhile. Then I slow to a jog. Then I slow to a walk. Rinse and Repeat (and again later in the day). We get back....and I throw more balls and sticks. I'm actually thinking about asking my neighbor is I can use his pond during our routine.


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## [email protected]

Besides daily nature walks and afternoon ball chasing, I play games with him all day long. I would say he gets at least 3-4 hours of attention per day. He gets angry if you don't do what he wants. I sure hope this is a stage.


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## PupperLove

This dog may very well just not be a good fit for your lifestyle. I'm sorry you are going through this, it can be very emotionally draining. As others have said, I have to agree that you will need to get some professional help with him or consider rehoming him. Not every dog is fit for every household. Although it may be hard, it may be what's best for everyone involved, including him.


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## Narny

[email protected] said:


> Besides daily nature walks and afternoon ball chasing, I play games with him all day long. I would say he gets at least 3-4 hours of attention per day. He gets angry if you don't do what he wants. I sure hope this is a stage.


Is this for real? I have just read this whole thread, and not once did you really interact with any of the advice given to you. Are you even taking the advice to heart? Do you care? I'm not trying to be mean but you just seem so intent on doing it your own way. 

From what I hear from you, your dog is in charge of your house. He decides what happens and when and unfortunately it just can not be that way. You have to be in charge and your dog has to believe it. 

This sounds like a poster who just wants to get everyone ramped up. JMO though. Maybe you just feel overwhelmed and its not coming across. In any even, you need someone who teaches YOU how to own this dog if you refuse to either find it a new home and arent able to step up the Alpha roll yourself. 

Some dogs just need a very strong leader.


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## NancyJ

An older post says you are a "stay at home mom". Do you have children in the home? There is no way I would a dog calling the shots in a home with kids, no matter how "great" he is.

He is probably a great dog in the right hands but it sounds like too much of a risk for me. For a dog like this you cannot have any fear of him or of being bitten. The game is over if you do. That does not make him a bad dog, just not the right dog for you. 

Compliance is NOT optional. He is young. Rehome him while he has a chance.


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## codmaster

Narny said:


> Is this for real? I have just read this whole thread, and not once did you really interact with any of the advice given to you. Are you even taking the advice to heart? Do you care? I'm not trying to be mean but you just seem so intent on doing it your own way.
> 
> From what I hear from you, your dog is in charge of your house. He decides what happens and when and unfortunately it just can not be that way. You have to be in charge and your dog has to believe it.
> 
> This sounds like a poster who just wants to get everyone ramped up. JMO though. Maybe you just feel overwhelmed and its not coming across. In any even, you need someone who teaches YOU how to own this dog if you refuse to either find it a new home and arent able to step up the Alpha roll yourself.
> 
> *Some dogs just need a very strong leader*.


And a prong collar!


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## NancyJ

If the dog does not respect them, won't a prong make it worse and just ramp him up?


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## Narny

jocoyn said:


> If the dog does not respect them, won't a prong make it worse and just ramp him up?


I wondered the same thing but I am just now learning to train so IDK the proper times to use a prong collar yet.


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## Jax08

jocoyn said:


> If the dog does not respect them, won't a prong make it worse and just ramp him up?


That's my opinion. A prong collar always ramped Jax up if she was already in a higher drive.

I think the OP needs to carefully read Cliff's posts again and decide if this dog it just to much for them. It does not to anyone any justice to be blind to the idea that they can properly handle the dog, especially the dog!


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## Narny

So I guess the better question for the OP to be asking is how do you regain respect from a dog who has lost respect for you? 

I am curious to know the answer as well.


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## [email protected]

I will take him to a behaviorist/trainer and let him advise me. I couldn't love him more.


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## Narny

[email protected] said:


> I will take him to a behaviorist/trainer and let him advise me. I couldn't love him more.


Please post what the behaviorist/trainer has to say. I would really like to know how to work on this issue myself.


EDIT***

I decided I really had to know what to do in this event and found this HTH's... http://www.cbrrescue.org/articles/packleader.htm


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## [email protected]

I will and I appreciate everyones help. (Tough crowd at times)


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## codmaster

jocoyn said:


> If the dog does not respect them, won't a prong make it worse and just ramp him up?


No - got nothing to do if a dog "respects" their handler. 

A prong collar's effectivness depends on the timing of and how the collar is used - just like any other training tool.


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## NancyJ

[email protected] said:


> I will take him to a behaviorist/trainer and let him advise me. I couldn't love him more.


I guess I don't understand - havent you been going to a trainer all along? This has not been a tough crowd. He is still a puppy now. When you have an adult intact male running the house things can only go downhill. I think you need to go to someone who truly understands working dogs. What are his lines? Has his breeder suggested someone? 

Sometimes truly loving a dog means finding the right place for him if you can't be what he needs. Maybe this dog needs to be a real working dog.


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## GregK

codmaster said:


> No - got nothing to do if a dog "respects" their handler.
> 
> A prong collar's effectivness depends on the timing of and how the collar is used - just like any other training tool.


What exactly are you suggesting here?

From the information we're getting here, the LAST thing this handler needs to do is put a prong on this dog and 'correct' him!! Chances are quite high that this would cause handler aggression!


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## GSD07

codmaster said:


> No - got nothing to do if a dog "respects" their handler.


 Depends on the dog. With a strong dog it got everything to do with respect. Your prong corrections will just make him angry if he doesn't consider it fair, and you find yourself corrected pretty soon. Owner/dog relationship is not supposed to be a power struggle.


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## jakes mom

> [email protected]
> 
> Thank you everyone. I had him evaluated this morning and it seems that he is a super dominent dog. I will be taking him to doggie boot camp next week.


This is what you posted in January. Did you take him to boot camp?

Sue


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## [email protected]

I think what I wanted to know is basically, if anyone had a similar problem and how it worked out. He has many, many wonderful traits.


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## jennyp

This one has me a bit worried. I know how much you must love this dog but it seems that you have a very high drive dog on your hands and seeing a behaviorist isn't going to change that. You might learn how to better manage him but overall it seems this dog would be happier in a sport/working environment. You have to ask yourself if you're willing and able to give this dog the kind of life it needs. That will likely mean giving this dog a more intense outlet than ball playing. The type of lifestyle you describe is great for a house pet but this dog seems to be a step beyond that.


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## jakes mom

[email protected] said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I have a 10 month old in tact male and we are experiencing so much aggression from him that we are at our wits end. He bites whenever he does not get his way. If you take him in a direction he does not want to go, he will jump and bite.


Perhaps you can explain the exact details. What do you want him to do and how do you try and get him to do it? And how do react when he doesn't do as you tell him? 

Having read your previous posts - I don't think you dog knows what he's supposed to do, he's confused and gets worried. 

Does he growl, snarl, air snap etc. - or does he go straight to bite. 

Could he just be mouthing - they can get pretty rough at his age?

Sue.


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## codmaster

GSD07 said:


> Depends on the dog. With a strong dog it got everything to do with respect. Your prong corrections will just make him angry if *he doesn't consider it fair*, and *you find yourself corrected* pretty soon. Owner/dog relationship is not supposed to be a power struggle.


Absolutely correct - no power struggle!

BTW, just out of curiosity, how does your dog "correct you"? That would be interesting to hear.

My dog (88lb male GSD with a very strong mind) is strong and to tell you the real truth, when I tell him to do something; I really don't give a hoot if he "thinks it fair" - he has to do what I tell him to do when I tell him to do it. And he does, strangely enough; and he still loves me, I think.

When you tell your dog to do something, does he get a chance to decide himself if it is "fair", and if not, to decide to not do it? I guess that would be every owners decision - to decide who is in charge.

BTW2, if an owner is not sure of what to do or if he/she is afraid of their own dog, absolutely they should not try to correct their behavior (maybe unless they have a clicker and a treat???) and should contact a pro with experience in modifying aggressive dogs.

And not one time with a prong collar correction has my dog got "angry" at me, at least as far as I can tell anyway. 

Assuming that your dog has ever gotten "angry" at you for anything - how did you know he was "angry" at you? Could be that I just didn't recognize it and he actually was really mad at me.


----------



## Narny

jakes mom said:


> Perhaps you can explain the exact details.


Thats the thing... and this has me really worried/wondering. There hasnt been any real explanation nor has anyone's questions been answered. All we get are these very vague responses like "I will take him to a behaviorist/trainer". There hasnt been ANY conversation to points or questions asked to either agree/confirm or disagree and explain.


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## Courtney

Narny said:


> Thats the thing... and this has me really worried/wondering. There hasnt been any real explanation nor has anyone's questions been answered. All we get are these very vague responses like "I will take him to a behaviorist/trainer". There hasnt been ANY conversation to points or questions asked to either agree/confirm or disagree and explain.


Narny, I know & it's frustrating. There have been alot of good questions & comments made and absolutely no response by the OP, why?

I keep checking up on this thread


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## NancyJ

@ CODMASTER, You have a leadership relationship with your dog though, correct? Our team occassionaly trains with a police officer (Lackland graduate and in LE as a departmental K9 Trainer since he left the military] - 

He said the number one issue he saw with handler aggression as the patrol dogs are often very dominant and hard - is that the new handler does not take the time to train and develop the relationship with the dog before they crank down on them and that is when they get bit. 

The other thing he said is if you are scared of a dog in any way you have no business working it...and I know he had taken quite a few bites himself.

I am not sure why the biting was not nipped in the bud MONTHS ago though with this puppy. Beau is what some folks would call dominant (what-ever.....he is a stubborn and headstrong little fiend) and is the hardest puppy I have ever owned. 

I did pop him hard when he would not comply at 7 months and he came at me. I will admit we had a "come to Jesus" meeting on the spot. I did not roll him but I did have him pinned down by his neck. He has not pulled anything like that since.


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## GSD07

Nancy, thank you for the explanation. A dog considers a correction to be unfair when he doesn't gives a *&() about the handler, or he doesn't understand why he is corrected. A dog's correction is a bite, surprise surprise. You can be sure that your dog gets angry at your crappy handling skills when he goes up the leash. I hope I answered all your questions, codmaster, and please save your sarcasm for someone else.


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## Narny

jocoyn said:


> I did pop him hard when he would not comply at 7 months and he came at me. I will admit we had a "come to Jesus" meeting on the spot. I did not roll him but I did have him pinned down by his neck. He has not pulled anything like that since.


I had to do exactly this with our dog Bridgett (part chow we think but mostly mutt). I married her Daddy and she was none to happy about that. I was home all day and after a while she just got pissed off (often) that it wasnt her way. She too had a come to Jesus moment with me. Dogs like this only respects strong leadership but they will absolutely correct YOU if you dont stand up for yourself.. By that I mean when I didnt correct her she only snapped (nipped) more. Once I corrected the behavior never had the problem again... I think nipping was her correction for me.


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## chelle

codmaster said:


> Absolutely correct - no power struggle!
> 
> BTW, just out of curiosity, how does your dog "correct you"? That would be interesting to hear.
> 
> My dog (88lb male GSD with a very strong mind) is strong and to tell you the real truth, when I tell him to do something;* I really don't give a hoot if he "thinks it fair" - he has to do what I tell him to do when I tell him to do it.* And he does, strangely enough; and he still loves me, I think.....


You are a strong leader apparently. The OP is not. (and that is not meant to be offensive, but simply true from what I've read.)

OP, you honestly may need to admit defeat and try to find the proper home while the dog is young. 

You're just not giving enough info to get help from people and that's frustrating everyone. Yeah, sometimes they're a tough crowd , but what you're getting is just frustration because they do want to help you.


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## Falkosmom

OP, I went back and read everything you posted. I took such an interest because I have a 10 month old intact male WL GSD as well, and though I have my own issues with him, they are nothing like what you are experiencing. 

First and foremost, from what you wrote, I am appalled at the pitifully small amount of exercise your pup is getting, _especially with it all being on leash_. All the boot camp and training in the world is not going to compensate for a pup that gets to run 30 feet in one direction, stop, only to get to run 30 feet again, stop then another, occasionally interspersed with a little on leash walking at a human pace. Has anything changed? You were once worried about what this might do to his hips, do you know that lack of proper exercise is damaging as well?

I will not pretend to know one tenth as much as so many others that have replied to your posts, and for what little it is worth, I agree with what they are saying. However, from a fresh perspective, does this poor puppy ever get to wander about and sniff scents, roll in the grass, go where he wants to go, or play with your other dogs (you did say you had other dogs on another thread), without a dang noose around his neck with you attached to the other end? 

I could be totally off in left field, but, geez, does he ever get a break from you without you trying to control every move he makes? Does he ever get to be just a dog?

You also previously posted that you have six children, some grown. What is going to happen when there are grandchildren coming to visit and/or stay? Children can make a lot of mistakes with good intentions with dogs, what if this dog feels he is being corrected or manhandled by a child? What if he doesn't want to do what they want him to do? What will happen then?

Let's be realistic, whatever you are doing now is obviously not effective. What is it going to take for you to either get the help you really need and follow through on it or else place this puppy in a more suitable home? What will it take? Another headline about a German Shepherd seriously injuring somebody, or worse? Or perhaps AC coming to your door to take your "dangerous dog" away to have him put down? 

Do you know the definition of insanity? It is keep on doing what you are doing and expecting different results. 

OP, stop being an irresponsible owner and failing yourself and this puppy. Do the right thing. Take the appropriate action necessary to make this have a happy ending.


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## codmaster

That should help!


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## msvette2u

> He said the number one issue he saw with handler aggression as the patrol dogs are often very dominant and hard - is that the new handler does not take the time to train and develop the relationship with the dog before they crank down on them and that is when they get bit.


I heard this from another pro trainer, Butch Cappel! Well, his take on it was it's miscommunication as well, that the handlers aren't well-trained in how to work w/the dog and will get bitten. I found it very interesting. 

I agree with others that we type and type and it doesn't seem that the OP is even on here or paying attention but creates new threads when the mood strikes. If you look back at the history however, the same thing happened when he/she was asking about how much exercise a working dog would need, then ignored everyone's advice (even back then).


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## msvette2u

Good post - the pup is also made to wear a prong even when in the house 



Falkosmom said:


> OP, I went back and read everything you posted. I took such an interest because I have a 10 month old intact male WL GSD as well, and though I have my own issues with him, they are nothing like what you are experiencing.
> 
> First and foremost, from what you wrote, I am appalled at the pitifully small amount of exercise your pup is getting, _especially with it all being on leash_. All the boot camp and training in the world is not going to compensate for a pup that gets to run 30 feet in one direction, stop, only to get to run 30 feet again, stop then another, occasionally interspersed with a little on leash walking at a human pace. Has anything changed? You were once worried about what this might do to his hips, do you know that lack of proper exercise is damaging as well?
> 
> I will not pretend to know one tenth as much as so many others that have replied to your posts, and for what little it is worth, I agree with what they are saying. However, from a fresh perspective, does this poor puppy ever get to wander about and sniff scents, roll in the grass, go where he wants to go, or play with your other dogs (you did say you had other dogs on another thread), without a dang noose around his neck with you attached to the other end?
> 
> I could be totally off in left field, but, geez, does he ever get a break from you without you trying to control every move he makes? Does he ever get to be just a dog?
> 
> You also previously posted that you have six children, some grown. What is going to happen when there are grandchildren coming to visit and/or stay? Children can make a lot of mistakes with good intentions with dogs, what if this dog feels he is being corrected or manhandled by a child? What if he doesn't want to do what they want him to do? What will happen then?
> 
> Let's be realistic, whatever you are doing now is obviously not effective. What is it going to take for you to either get the help you really need and follow through on it or else place this puppy in a more suitable home? What will it take? Another headline about a German Shepherd seriously injuring somebody, or worse? Or perhaps AC coming to your door to take your "dangerous dog" away to have him put down?
> 
> Do you know the definition of insanity? It is keep on doing what you are doing and expecting different results.
> 
> OP, stop being an irresponsible owner and failing yourself and this puppy. Do the right thing. Take the appropriate action necessary to make this have a happy ending.


----------



## codmaster

"He said the number one issue he saw with handler aggression as the patrol dogs are often very dominant and hard - is that the new handler does not take the time to train and develop the relationship with the dog before they crank down on them and that is when they get bit. "

*Isn't it a little hard to compare a 10 mo pet puppy with a trained patrol dog? Would seem to be a very different circumstance (unless that puppy is one he%$ of a dog mentally!!!!!*


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## Falkosmom

msvette2u said:


> Good post - the pup is also made to wear a prong even when in the house


I personally have no problem with a prong collar with somebody that knows how to properly use one, that would leave me out. 

My question though is this, if a prong collar is constantly on a dog, would not the prongs be always digging into the dog's neck when he layed down to sleep or rest? If he were sleeping, could not just the right movement or roll over cause the prongs to dig into the dogs neck, painfully so, possibly jolting the dog out of sleep? In essence, could the dog relax and sleep in peace with a prong always on his neck?


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## msvette2u

> Isn't it a little hard to compare a 10 mo pet puppy with a trained patrol dog? Would seem to be a very different circumstance (unless that puppy is one he%$ of a dog mentally!!!!!


Well...this pup is biting the owner who keeps a prong on (apparently, from the sounds of it) almost 100% of the time, giving corrections willynilly, so it does make one wonder if he's not just basically doing the last thing dogs do before they shut down, and that's defend themselves. 

If defending themselves does not work, (IME) they will shut down. 
That is, I've had many dogs show defense moves such as biting or attempting to bite (I wear thick leather gloves for smaller pooches, use a catch- or rabies-pole, etc.) and when those moves fail to stop whatever is going on, they will shut down. Literally. Just kind of fall over and submit/give up. That's not what I'm suggesting they do at all, they really do need to find another way to work w/the puppy though...that's just what happens in rescue (or doing animal control) because you simply have to deal with the dog and them biting you is not an option. 

Apparently the biting and what-not works with this pup - maybe they stop what they are doing when he bites.


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## msvette2u

Falkosmom said:


> I personally have no problem with a prong collar with somebody that knows how to properly use one, that would leave me out.
> 
> My question though is this, if a prong collar is constantly on a dog, would not the prongs be always digging into the dog's neck when he layed down to sleep or rest? If he were sleeping, could not just the right movement or roll over cause the prongs to dig into the dogs neck, painfully so, possibly jolting the dog out of sleep? In essence, could the dog relax and sleep in peace with a prong always on his neck?


Well this was my point. I have no issue w/a prong, in fact if you viewed our new photo of Ruger you'd see a prong on him. 

But not to be worn constantly, the OP's pup is not allowed to move about without being corrected by this prong, and...it's like someone yelling at you 24/7, you start to tune them out.

IMO, prongs aren't meant to be left on the dog 100% of the time. That is, the pup ought to be allowed to romp and play in the house without fear of being corrected for just...doing what dogs do??

I mean...part of the reason for our speculation is that the OP pops on and makes non-sequitor remarks and leaves again for weeks or months on end :shrug:


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## Narny

I just wish the OP had been willing to post more about the situation. I didnt think there was anything particularly hard about this thread until people started pointing out the lack of forth coming information. 

Not knowing or getting feed back makes it a little tough.


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## Falkosmom

msvette2u said:


> Well this was my point. I have no issue w/a prong, in fact if you viewed our new photo of Ruger you'd see a prong on him.
> 
> But not to be worn constantly, the OP's pup is not allowed to move about without being corrected by this prong, and...it's like someone yelling at you 24/7, you start to tune them out.
> 
> IMO, prongs aren't meant to be left on the dog 100% of the time. That is, the pup ought to be allowed to romp and play in the house without fear of being corrected for just...doing what dogs do??
> 
> I mean...part of the reason for our speculation is that the OP pops on and makes non-sequitor remarks and leaves again for weeks or months on end :shrug:


I was not disagreeing with you, just pleading ignorance and seeking clarification.


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## codmaster

[email protected] said:


> I am a stay at home mom. He is walked for an hour in the morning in the hills, plays during the day, and in the afternoon I kick balls around and he chases them until he is tired. I don't think exercise is the answer. It is more like he calls the shots. Can this behavior be changed? He breaks the skin.


 
How severe is the bite? If he just barely breaks the skin that is a "Nip" from a 10 mo GSD, not a bite.

If so, it sounds like he is just telling you he doesn't like what you are doing and that he feels like he is in charge.

It can certainly be solved IF you can find the right professional help and are willing to do what they tell you to do.


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## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> Well...this pup is biting the owner who keeps a prong on (apparently, from the sounds of it)* almost 100% of the time*, giving corrections willynilly, so it does make one wonder if he's not just basically doing the last thing dogs do before they shut down, and that's defend themselves.
> 
> If defending themselves does not work, (IME) they will shut down.
> That is, I've had many dogs show defense moves such as biting or attempting to bite (I wear thick leather gloves for smaller pooches, use a catch- or rabies-pole, etc.) and when those moves fail to stop whatever is going on, they will shut down. Literally. Just kind of fall over and submit/give up. That's not what I'm suggesting they do at all, they really do need to find another way to work w/the puppy though...that's just what happens in rescue (or doing animal control) because you simply have to deal with the dog and them biting you is not an option.
> 
> Apparently the biting and what-not works with this pup - maybe they stop what they are doing when he bites.


 
What post was this info in? The 100% that is.

Unless they are afraid of their dog (possible for sure) this biting thing can be fixed and quickly (unless the dog is one of the very very few truly pschotic animals!).


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## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> What post was this info in? The 100% that is.
> 
> *Unless they are afraid of their dog* (possible for sure) this biting thing can be fixed and quickly (unless the dog is one of the very very few truly pschotic animals!).


From a thread when the pup was 7 months: "We have never popped our dog although sometimes we will put a puppy prong collar on him *when we feel threatened. "*


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## Chance&Reno

Falkosmom said:


> I personally have no problem with a prong collar with somebody that knows how to properly use one, that would leave me out.
> 
> My question though is this, if a prong collar is constantly on a dog, would not the prongs be always digging into the dog's neck when he layed down to sleep or rest? If he were sleeping, could not just the right movement or roll over cause the prongs to dig into the dogs neck, painfully so, possibly jolting the dog out of sleep? In essence, could the dog relax and sleep in peace with a prong always on his neck?


It can also cause "context stimuli" which means that the dog becomes immune to the touch of the collar and stops reacting to the corrections. 

This dog doesn't respect her. Without the whole story, I am going to state what *I* think is going on here. 

She is getting frustrated with the dog and is just giving corrections when she's upset with the dog. She probably has never done any formal training with the dog to teach it the correct responses, instead, she probably watches TV and believes she is a "dog whisperer" and that punishment before hand is the way to train a dog to do good behaviors. If that's the case, I don't blame the dog for biting. I'd be mad too, if someone chopped me in the throat everytime I did something wrong, but never showed me the right way to do it.

This dog is frustrated beyond belief. That frustration leads to aggression in the wrong hands. 

I took in a 6 yr old GSD. Not sure what line she was as I never had her papers. I think she was a BYB dog, though, so she may have been ASL. She was 65 lbs, beautiful girl. 

Her mom had a stroke. The son called me and told me that the dog was just fending for itself while mom was in the hospital. He begged me to take the dog because they had no where to house her, as they weren't even sure mom would survive the stroke.

They signed a surrender contract with me when I picked the dog up. Meaning that they were relinquishing the care of the dog up and that they agreed to let me take custody of her. This basically absolves them of any responsibility for her care. I paid for everything from that point forward. Food, Meds (she was on proin for her bladder), grooming, toys, treats.. Basically just like she was my own. Because she had health issues, I spent about $1000 on her in the 10 months I had her, the first time.

This dog was a jumper, I mean part Kangaroo or something. She would bounce off the walls, kennel walls, house, doors, furniture... She would jump on people, animals, your TV.. I got tired just watching her. Come to find out, through conversations with the son, that the dog was allowed to do this in return for mom not having to exercise the dog . She was allowed to run amuk in the house. She chewed everything she could get her mouth on, a chronic barker, and sounded like a flock of birds when she heard you crinkle the treat bag. She was allowed to put her front feet on people's shoulders to "hug them" during greetings and had ZERO recall. I don't even think she knew her name in the beginning.

So fast forward 10 months down the road. Mom has just about recovered from her stroke and wanted her dog back. For a month, the son kept calling me asking for the dog back. I knew this situation was going to be difficult as I felt that the dog wouldn't do well going back to that house, especially having lived around my dogs and strict rules for almost a year. I really do believe that they had every intention of getting the dog back, because they knew I would take her in and work with her, therefore they would receive a 10 month boot camp for free. I just had that feeling by the questions the son would ask me over the time I first had her.

I finally decide that I'm willing to let her go back as the mom called me crying and I felt bad. I know how much I love MY dogs, I couldn't imagine someone telling you that you can't have your baby back. Like an idiot, I agree.. (still kick myself every day for this).

I gave them a daily schedule for her, so her transition back home would be as stressless as possible. They didn't stick to it at all, I mean AT ALL. The mom didn't follow through at all on anything. The dog was out of control after 2 weeks of being back in that home. The dog was allowed to stand with her front feet on the table and eat off mom's plate, which was a new trick mom taught her and was proud of .

After 6 months, the dogs frustration grew so bad that she started biting without warning. I mean she was taking chunks of flesh when she did. The third time she put her teeth into mom, I get a call from the son telling me that they were going to put the dog down. NOW, when I had this dog, she didn't have ANY aggressive responses to anything, not even having her nails trimmed!!!! How can a dog get THIS bad in 6 months?? I was so mad I felt like my face was shooting flames. I told the son that this dog being PTS was NOT an option. I drove to the vet's office (over an hour away) and took the dog home. I handed the son a bill for what it will cost me to fix the issues (just like a boot camp) and he actually paid me in full and it was quite a lot of money! I told him he wouldn't be finding out what happens to the dog after that so please don't call and ask if you can have the dog back, this time. He signed another surrender contract, this time stating the dog was my property now, forever.

I was so mad at this family, beyond aggrivated in their carelessness. To let a dog get that far out of control that she becomes aggressive is unacceptable. THEY blamed ME and THE DOG!!! The son thought the only way to fix her issue was to put a choke chain on her and rip her to the ground everytime she acted out. He thought alpha rolling was a good idea, too. Hitting was the theme of their discipline, yelling, kicking, pinching her ears, grabbing her snout.. I won't go on because I get mad just talking about it. THEY created the aggression in a dog who had none to begin with, and did it in a relatively short period of time, too. He admitted this to me and the vet.

Oh and I beat myself up over this situation every day. She was rehomed to a very appropriate house and they live on a farm. She is very happy. Gorgeous dog, sweet girl and very willing to please. 2 years later, still no aggression, so it was situational, which I already knew. 

Moral of the story, if you can't handle your dog, REHOME it to a family or person who CAN.


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## LoveEcho

[email protected] said:


> I think what I wanted to know is basically, if anyone had a similar problem and how it worked out. He has many, many wonderful traits.


To be brutally honest, people who have had "similar problems", meaning they for some reason got a dog that was NOT a good fit for their lifestyle (ie. when people buy WL dogs with no intentions of providing any intellectual stimulation or work or can't handle the stronger personalities that WL dogs often have) and that they couldn't handle, they found it a home that could. All we've gotten in response is "oh, the trainer says he's super dominant" and repeated "I'll take him to training." The dog should have been in training from day 1: I hate to make the working line stereotype point, but it's so often true-- they frequently have strong personalities and very high drive. Neither of which belongs in the hands of the inexperienced without heavy professional help. You are not in control of this dog, it doesn't sound like you ever will be (the vague comments don't sound confident), and that is a recipe for someone getting hurt. 

I wish you the best of luck, but please be aware of the gravity of the situation-- you say you love your dog so much, and I know you do-- so don't set him up for failure. Now, I know I'm being all dooms-day here, but we don't have any further details on the nature of the biting so I'm assuming the worst. We haven't gotten any real updates from you, so I hope you guys are ok and working things out


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## msvette2u

codmaster said:


> What post was this info in? The 100% that is.
> 
> Unless they are afraid of their dog (possible for sure) this biting thing can be fixed and quickly (unless the dog is one of the very very few truly pschotic animals!).


I think they purchased a very expensive working line dog. 
The puppy behaved like a puppy. However, they did not realize the biting and puppy behavior that went on was _perfectly normal for this breed. _
They figured he was "aggressive" so ran out, got a prong and started jerking the living daylights out of him. 
Anyone who says "pop" the dog, knows what a correction is, and how to use it. 
And the puppy was _just being a normal puppy._
People will get on here w/normal biting puppy and are freaked out that their puppy is "aggressive". 
I'm willing to bet you this is what transpired and they resorted to prong use to control his behavior at that time.
So, like I said a few posts back, it's like someone yelling at you 24/7, you start tuning it out. 
The puppy has resorted to biting due to all the unfair corrections, and this is why, at 10mos. he's biting and breaking skin, sinking his teeth into flesh because he's very frustrated due to lack of exercise and them thinking he's some sort of demon.

The dog is perfectly behaved at training classes because he's finally treated like a normal dog there, I doubt the trainer lets the owner yard the dog around by the prong and give unfair corrections. 

All I can think of is what breeder sold them the dog, that put this dog, this "vicious puppy", this wonderful dog with so much potential into such incompetent hands 

**I draw that conclusion because of...




> He is a sweetheart in the house but he is furious if he doesn't get his way on walks, etc. He is not good at the vets. He does not want to be examined. In the house he puts his teeth around our hands. *I usually put a short leash on him and put him in his house.*
> 
> We have had him since he was 8 weeks old. *We use a prong collar on him and I correct him, but he is not phased.* I understand that I have to be the alpha, but I am at a loss as to what to do. We have never physically punished him other than the prong collar.
> 
> If he could say "who cares" he would.


I mean...prongs are for teaching a dog how to walk, not to stick on the dog and "pop" it all over the house for every infraction and misdemeanor! 
Who uses a prong all over the house for every day "corrections"??


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## jakes mom

Perhaps they just can't afford to hire a behaviourist - fair enough. 

But how can anyone begin to help - when OP is unwilling to give details of specific incidents. 

I just think the poor dog's totally confused and hasn't got a clue what he's supposed to be doing.

Sue


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## NancyJ

I really don't know and wish the OP would play in more. That said.

No the puppy will *NOT* *outgrow* this and it will only get worse unless it is properly brought under control. 

He sounds like a punk who has been allowed to get away with whatever he wants and it sounds like you are already intimidated by him. You have already had people who have seen the dog tell you he is a nice dog - a good dog so the odds are he is not some mutant agressive dog.

You need to either own up to it and manage the dog properly or rehome him-the loving thing to do is to provide the dog with the structure and excercise he needs. 

I am particularly concerned that you mention a daughter in the house (in another thread) The consequences of doing neither are serious bodily injury to yourself or others and/or perfectly nice dog who winds up euthanized because the problems were not nipped in the bud.


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## lhczth

The OP has two choices; get professional help from someone that is familiar with GSD and aggression OR place the dog with someone that has the experience and time to work with him. You can not get help on the internet or from a message board. 

Where are you located?


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## jennyp

lhczth said:


> The OP has two choices; get professional help from someone that is familiar with GSD and aggression OR place the dog with someone that has the experience and time to work with him. You can not get help on the internet or from a message board.
> 
> Where are you located?


My worry is that, absolutely, she can learn a lot from a professional but the real question is whether the OP is willing to step up her game and actually work this dog on a daily basis. It seems from past threads the OP has a daily routine that seems fine to her but simply isn't cutting it. There needs to be some sort of lifestyle change here and it doesn't seem like the OP is committed to that.


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## DianaM

Member Clubs by Regions
DVG America clubs by region/state

United Schutzhund Clubs of America - For the German Shepherd Dog
UScA clubs by region/state

I'm brain-farting on the other schutzhund/protection sports organizations right now but I would find the club(s) closest to you, phone their training directors, explain your situation, and request an evaluation. These people are used to working with very strong dogs. They may be able to give you valuable insight and advice. If your dog is indeed clear-headed but is much stronger than you and your family (mentally), they may be able to find him a working home where he would excel and shine. 

There is NO SHAME in rehoming a dog that is clearly such a bad fit! What if a child or teen corrects him and he comes up at their face? You will have a huge lawsuit, the kid will be disfigured for life, and you will have a dead dog. Conversely, if he is evaluated as a very good working dog, you can glow with pride that your former dog is competing at a national level or even keeping the streets in shape as a police patrol K9. 

Sometimes, puppies that evaluate as a perfect match at 8 weeks grow into something much, MUCH more. That happened to a member on this board. That dog was rehomed to a national level competition home and she now has a fabulously fantastic amazing dog that fits her like a favorite pair of jeans. Everybody wins!

Good luck, please take your pooch to a schutzhund club or other highly qualified trainer/evaluator and do keep us posted.


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## VonKromeHaus

I just want to touch on the prong. There was a picture recently of a puppy with a prong on that was so poorly fitted, it hurt to look at it. If you are going to use a prong, please use one appropiately! Don't take advice from someone about a training tool if they can't properly use it on their dog. 
A link on how to PROPERLY fit a prong. 

Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar


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## [email protected]

Diana M and all, Thank you for your wonderful advice. I am grateful for your time and suggestions. What a fine group.


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## matthewm11

I have a 12 month old GSD/ husky I adopted about six months ago. She was an "outside dog" who didnt get a whole lot of human interaction at her old home so she came to me pretty stubborn and wanted things her way. She was mostly well behaved but when I did correct her, say to stop her from digging, her instinct was to put her mouth around my hand and would constantly test me- ie: with digging, she knew she wasnt allowed to but would go slowly start to paw and scratch at the ground to see if I was going to stop her this time. For her the key was repitition, constinency and not acting intimated or fazed when she tested me. Even if she went back to the spot she wanted to dig a hundred times and I had to walk over, say "no!" and move her over and over again I would, not trying to get increasingly frustrated or fazed. If she mouthed my hand while moving or redirecting her I would put her in a sit and say no. Its boring doing stuff like this over and over and over and I am tempted sometimes to let her get away with something after getting tired of correcting her every two minutes but she would realize that I was going to always correct and not be intimidated by her mouthing so would eventually stop the behavior.


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## msvette2u

[email protected] said:


> Diana M and all, Thank you for your wonderful advice. I am grateful for your time and suggestions. What a fine group.


So have you seen any improvements since...implementing(?) some of the suggestions? Have you found a trainer?


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## msvette2u

matthewm11 said:


> when I did correct her, say to stop her from digging, her instinct was to put her mouth around my hand and would constantly test me- ie: with digging, she knew she wasnt allowed to but would go slowly start to paw and scratch at the ground to see if I was going to stop her this time.


Do you give her something else to do besides dig? Dogs that dig are bored usually and you've got a mix that's going to dig naturally.
Here, the solution would be...let them dig. We have Dachshunds and it's in their nature to dig, rather like your Husky mix.
I watched an episode of "it's me or the dog" where they built a digging box specifically for the dog so it would have an outlet for digging.

If you need your dog to stop doing something, it's wiser to give them an alternative, than to just punish them for doing what they are doing, without giving them something else to do.


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## matthewm11

Its not that I mind her digging- she absolutely loves it and with her its not about unspent energy or lack of exercise (i dont think) she just loves to dig. She is not a big chewer and is very calm indoors but her one vice is a good dig- She just has some spots she is not allowed to. My point was that it seems she knows she is not allowed to dig in certain places ( and its not just digging, that was an example that came to mind) but will test me. It could be game, where she enjoys making me run over and stop her over and over, or it could do to dogs lack of subjective learning abilities ( because she wasnt allowed to dig there yesterday or ten minutes ago or two feet over doesnt mean She cant dig here, now!) but I do think part of it is just that she is at the age (12 months) where she is testing bounderies. Maybe I am anthropromorphising (sp????) but she is like a typical teenager.....


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## matthewm11

*Btw*

I was misleading in my first post- I am not so much correcting her as I am trying to redirect her/ give her sonething else to do. I will walk over, say "no dig!" and then bounce around and run so she chases me or play fetch with her. I dont just correct her and then ignore her. What happens is that she gets distracted for a minute and chases me or goes after the ball but she will eventually pivk up the scent again and want to dig. I need to get her a sandbox....


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## Pepper311

I agree sound like too much dog for your family to Handel. Not a good fit sorry to say. You are going to have to do some intense constant training it's going to take lots of time and commitment to get threw this. Are you willing to shell out the money and time to get this dog back on trak? If you don't have time for the dog it's time to contact a rescue group and have him placed in a new home. 

What about building a bound with your dog. It does not sound like you or your dog have truly bounded. When you say correct him what do you mean? What about being more positive in his training? Prong collors are not positive. Stop thinking that you need to dominate you dog and start working on getting your dog to respect and love you. Work with a trainer for sure.


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## DianaM

YES! A sandbox is a great idea. You could try a plastic kiddie pool, fill it with clean, sandy dirt (no fertilizers), and hide "goodies" for her to find. Why dig somewhere else when the kiddie pool has buried treasure! Stuff a kong with canned dog food or ground beef or tuna or peanut butter or cat food (whatever your dog loves), freeze it, then bury it in the sandbox. Hide a squeaky toy like a Cuz as well. Maybe a chewy like a bully stick. Mix it up! Some days, hide several things (especially at first), other days just one or two things and other days nothing. It will be a digging fanatic's slot machine.  If she particularly likes to dig up plants, uproot some weeds and plant a few in her sandbox for her to demolish. 

Digging is otherwise an outlet for unused energy, either mental or physical. If you think your dog is getting enough exercise, double the physical and quadruple the mental. You'll know she got enough when she is too tired to move!


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## Falkosmom

DianaM said:


> YES! A sandbox is a great idea. You could try a plastic kiddie pool, fill it with clean, sandy dirt (no fertilizers), and hide "goodies" for her to find. Why dig somewhere else when the kiddie pool has buried treasure! Stuff a kong with canned dog food or ground beef or tuna or peanut butter or cat food (whatever your dog loves), freeze it, then bury it in the sandbox. Hide a squeaky toy like a Cuz as well. Maybe a chewy like a bully stick. Mix it up! Some days, hide several things (especially at first), other days just one or two things and other days nothing. It will be a digging fanatic's slot machine.  If she particularly likes to dig up plants, uproot some weeds and plant a few in her sandbox for her to demolish.
> 
> Digging is otherwise an outlet for unused energy, either mental or physical. If you think your dog is getting enough exercise, double the physical and quadruple the mental. You'll know she got enough when she is too tired to move!


I am sure the neighborhood cats will hide lots of goodies in there!


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## DianaM

Dogs love those "Tootsie Rolls."


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