# Need opinions... Again :(



## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Slight back story for those that don't know: I rescued a 3yr old female GSD. She was previously chained to a fence in Mexico since she was a puppy, and had little to no interaction with humans or other dogs, unless she was in heat and they bred her.

She is very fear aggressive and leash reactive. I've got her comfortable in our home environment, and she absolutely loves me and my children. However, she will try and attack anyone else who comes into my home or yard. She has attacked other animals (will expand on that in a bit) and has insanely high prey drive. Her only motivation is food. She doesn't play with toys, and doesn't engage in play with me. She will cuddle for hours, begs to be groomed (by me), and frequently tries to crawl into my lap for naps.

I hired a trainer to work with her on her issues. Things were great for the first couple weeks, and she was able to help a lot. Lyka will now take treats without taking half your hand with her, and in my yard she has almost perfected non reaction to people and dogs walking past. Then the trainer had me start bringing her to classes to just observe. Lyka went crazy and it took myself and another handler to keep her from going after people and other dogs. This continued for 3 more sessions, then the trainer decided she was ready for one on one dog introductions. She would bring another dog off leash into the classroom. Lyka attacked. She didn't draw blood, but she certainly looked like she wanted to. Trainer thought a lower energy dog would be better and scheduled another session. Same setup, same results. Third session, lower energy dog again, same results. I finally called it quits with that trainer.

My issue now is that Lyka went from about a 5 on the aggression scale to a high 10. I can no longer walk her because she tries to attack any dog near her (behind fences, other side of the street, etc). Before working with the trainer Lyka walked great and only reacted to cats. After the first week I had her, she stopped reacting to people while on walks as well. Now she goes berserk when she sees anyone from any distance. I can no longer take her outside my home.

The only trainer I have found who is qualified to work with her is 3hrs away, and I cannot afford a weekly trip to see this trainer, or to have the trainer come to us. The cost to leave her with the trainer isn't feasible either. But, they do offer skype sessions, which is expensive, but doable if I cut out some monthly expenses (once a week dance lessons for my daughter and cable TV). My question is, how well would skype training work? I'm not sure how it would work, as I would have to carry a computer around for the trainer to see her in "action." Would I be better off just watching videos online or ordering DVDs and trying the techniques myself? 

I'm at a loss, and would appreciate any and all input!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Any chance you are looking to work with Sublime Canine? 

If so, I think at least one Skype session would be useful- you can film her in action when not on Skype to have that available. 

The problem with bringing in a dog and having her react is that she got to practice bad behavior again and again. 

I have trained my dogs through reactivity without a hands-on trainer, myself. The closest qualified trainer is a plane ride away for me. It does work but you have to be willing to practice some trial and error and to make some mistakes. Another issue is if you can not physically control the dog to keep everyone safe. E-collars can work really well in this scenario but there is a method that I used that I would not share via a forum, generally for various reasons.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

jschrest said:


> Then the trainer had me start bringing her to classes to just observe. Lyka went crazy and it took myself and another handler to keep her from going after people and other dogs. This continued for 3 more sessions, then the trainer decided she was ready for one on one dog introductions. She would bring another dog off leash into the classroom. Lyka attacked.


Good on you for ending things with that "trainer." That person had no idea what they were doing. You don't throw an off-leash dog in front of a reactive dog! Of course Lyka attacked! 

First and foremost, Lyka needs to get used to having other dogs around at a considerable distance. This is ideally done with a second person & calm dog, but a dog-park can work, too. The idea is to have your dog at a long, safe distance from the other dogs. She needs to see the other dogs, but remain calm. If she's not calm, you're too close. 

Start walking Lyka (and have the other person walk their dog in the same direction) and praising calm behaviour (as well as ignoring the other dog). Walk in the same direction as the other person/dog (you guys can be on opposite sides of the street) for five or ten minutes. Then come a little closer to each other and do the same routine. Rinse and repeat as many times as is necessary for Lyka to feel comfortable walking within a few metres of that dog. 

Then do the same thing with other dogs, and finally try (on-leash) walking and training within view of a dog park, working your way to being able to be right next to the fence and having your dog ignore everything going on there.

It'll take time, but it's quite doable. It's important to take baby steps and ensure you're not setting up Lyka to fail by throwing her in a situation that's too stressful for her (exactly what the "trainer" did).

You can also do some pre-emptive "dog exposure" right at home. Load up one of the million videos of dogs barking on YouTube. Put it on quiet volume, but loud enough for Lyka to hear. Teach her to ignore the barking.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I was going to do the sessions with Sean O'Shea. Thegooddog.net

I've rescued, trained, and rehabbed many dogs over the years. Lyka is the first that is beyond my ability. She doesn't respond to any training technique that has been successful in the past. If you would like to PM those techniques, I'm willing to try anything!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Yurie, I did that with her prior to training, and it went great. She was reactive at close distance though, and still having issues with her allowing people inside the home, which is why I started with training. That and the fact that she obeys commands as long as treats are involved, but ignores them completely if you're empty handed, the little butt. 

I basically had a manageable dog before the trainer, now I have a holy nightmare on my hands. I attempted to start the training myself again after the training debacle, but even with the dog well away from her, she pulled me to the ground and drug me a good distance before I could recover. She's been inside since then. I don't want a dog like that out in public for everyone's safety.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

jschrest said:


> Yurie, I did that with her prior to training, and it went great. She was reactive at close distance though, and still having issues with her allowing people inside the home, which is why I started with training. That and the fact that she obeys commands as long as treats are involved, but ignores them completely if you're empty handed, the little butt.
> 
> I basically had a manageable dog before the trainer, now I have a holy nightmare on my hands. I attempted to start the training myself again after the training debacle, but even with the dog well away from her, she pulled me to the ground and drug me a good distance before I could recover. She's been inside since then. I don't want a dog like that out in public for everyone's safety.


Put a prong collar on her - the pulling will be much easier to manage.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

She pulls through prongs. She is so intent on getting to what she wants, she has literally choked herself out trying to get to them (whether person or animal). She was properly fitted by the trainer, but I'm not sure what the brand of prong is, but it does not phase her one bit. The only thing that hasn't been tried at this point is an ecollar. 

She has torn her muzzle up to the point of stitches trying to get a muzzle off. And that was a nightmare. She has to be heavily sedated before the vet trip, I had to bring her in alone, place a towel over her face, and fully lay on her while they gave her a higher dose to fully knock her out before they could touch her. Then they did tubing and vitals.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

First of all, I'm sorry you're going through this. It's awful. 
I know with my two they are accepting of dogs they know, but since their incident (maybe it's my tension) but I notice them more reactive with dogs they DONT know,.. Especially Bob, Wile E will hide behind me (or attempt to) and growl, where Bob is a mouthy jerk about it. 

Don't give up. Keep taking her out for walks as much as you can handle, don't push yourself past YOUR comfort zone, but push her slowly past hers. Not all at once. I like the previous suggestion walking on same direction as another dog/person. If she's too much, put more space between you and said person. 

I have to say that trainer is a fool! Why on EARTH would they have the first introduction with a LOOSE dog while yours is on leash , your dog with no muzzle and with a high energy dog!? Gahhhhhh some people!! 

As for muzzle, have you tried an Italian basket? That's what I have for my guys and they are great. They are hard enough that they can't damage it if they tried, they can comfortable pant, drink etc. 

Things will get better. I KNOW how stressful and exhausting it can be.... I KNOW. 
But keep focused, stay confident in YOU , and she will feel it. 
Good luck, keep us posted.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

jschrest said:


> She pulls through prongs. She is so intent on getting to what she wants, she has literally choked herself out trying to get to them (whether person or animal). She was properly fitted by the trainer, but I'm not sure what the brand of prong is, but it does not phase her one bit. The only thing that hasn't been tried at this point is an ecollar.
> 
> She has torn her muzzle up to the point of stitches trying to get a muzzle off. And that was a nightmare. She has to be heavily sedated before the vet trip, I had to bring her in alone, place a towel over her face, and fully lay on her while they gave her a higher dose to fully knock her out before they could touch her. Then they did tubing and vitals.


What size prong are you using? The size does matter The bigger links did not work with Midnite but the smaller links with a larger choker as a safety changed everything. Midnite was 100 pounds of I'm going to kill you(with dogs only, he was alway decent with people) so imagine a dog of that size up in the air barking like a fool, pulling and hackles raised. He looked and sounded vicious. I think I went through 5 trainers with him. I didn't care for everything each offered, but I did get ideas and I took those and put them together to use. He wasn't even allowed in a class at first, then they put him behind partitions which aggravated him more and other people didn't have compete control of their dogs and I was on edge because more then one ran up to him and in his face. I have no clue how I didn't ever get bit from all the body blocking I did.i then worked with him for hours daily on my own. I became very determined. I found a stable GSD out of my home and pack, that helped a lot. Then after all these months I took him to another trainer, they brought a dog out, he reacted. She thought she could handle him better, so she took his leash. What a joke, he shredded her arm with his nails trying to get to the dog. I just sat there looking at this trainer who then said she could offer one on one training for a hefty price. I said no thank you. I called the local GSD club and the next day took him out. There was an immediate difference, calmness, and respect for other dogs on Midnites part. The trainer had two senior GSDs and I swear something passed between them and Midnite, I could see him looking at them with respect, it was something to see. Not even a month later he got his CGC and became a certified therapy dog.

Food is ypuf friend, use it to your advantage and use it for focus and redirection. You have to be relaxed and confident.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I called the local GSD club and the next day took him out. There was an immediate difference, calmness, and respect for other dogs on Midnites part. The trainer had two senior GSDs and I swear something passed between them and Midnite, I could see him looking at them with respect, it was something to see. Not even a month later he got his CGC and became a certified therapy dog.



I love this.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I wish we had clubs where I'm at. I wish we had a variety of trainers to choose from! It's a small border town, most don't care about dogs at all. They toss them in their backyards for protection and call it a day. 

The trainer told me all dogs that go through her program get worse before they get better. I stopped at the get worse part. I questioned the dog thing, and her answer was always "it will get better, you just have to trust me." Well, needless to say, I didn't trust her. 

I'm going to give Lyka and myself a two week break to reset. I'm looking into different training tools and techniques, and will do a ton of research and watch a ton of videos in the meantime. Let Lyka enjoy her indoor nose work, and continue running together in the backyard for physical exercise, both of which she loves and puts no stress on her. 

I couldn't tell you the size of the prong, the trainer took it back when I told her we would no longer be training with her. I didn't care, it didn't do a bit of good anyway. 

I have one sister who isn't afraid of Lyka, and Lyka isn't afraid of her. I'm going to see if she will follow me on walks after the two week reset and video Lykas reactiveness. And I can use my brother in law to show how she reacts when men come over, and have her video that as well. I'm not sure he will be game for it though, he is terrified of my girl. But, if I can get video evidence of her reactions, maybe I can get a trainer to assess her without having to drive 300+ miles weekly. 

I am hopeful I'll eventually get her working with a good trainer and even a club next year when I move to Cali. I've already looked into clubs and trainers in the area, and I'll have a large selection to choose from, and enough property to easily put together an agility course for her. She loves the little amount of agailty I was able to "create" at the local park before the training debacle. 

Thank you everyone for the advice and encouragement, and the PM's. I'm still more than open to suggestions, so lay it on me!


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Have you looked into Sophia Yin? I know she has passed away now, but when I was going through all this with the boys she has some really helpful stuff on her website and there are still people working there that are willing to help out etc.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

bob_barker said:


> Have you looked into Sophia Yin? I know she has passed away now, but when I was going through all this with the boys she has some really helpful stuff on her website and there are still people working there that are willing to help out etc.


Candice, I haven't. but certainly will now, thank you!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I know this is hard but--- back up. Go back to what you were doing before you went to the trainer. Go back to working under threshold. (Check out Whole Dog Journal for dog agressive dogs working under threshold.) What happened is that your trainer put her way over threshold, bam! So you know that doesn't work. Back up to a point where things are working again and build from there.
Very sorry for the set back. I know you were thinking you would be making progress with the trainer and that turned out not to be the case. It's hard to stand up to someone who is doing stuff you don't agree with. Especially hard in a case like this.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Okay, the first video is Lyka reacting to a huskie that is across the street from us. I didn't attempt any corrections just to show her reactions. I ended up bringing her back inside because she escalated more after I stopped recording. And this is actually one of her better reactions since ending her training sessions. 

http://youtu.be/SjxafLNVCzo


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

This video is when she was in a nice down, and first saw the dog. I did minor corrections, and she settled when the dog went behind a tree out of sight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU4nKM6-blY


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Oh jschrest watching those videos was heartbreaking.Poor Lyka getting so worked up like that!She must be be so stressed!And you too!Like middleofnowhere said,you just have to start all over.One thing I thought of is when you think she's ready to get closer to another dog,if they could be on opposite sides of a closed door or solid fence so she could smell the other dog but not have a visual for a few sessions?
Sounds like you were really making progress before,I'm sure you can get to that point again and progress from there.You are one very determined ladyYou will do it!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Her favorite thing to do is to sit out front and watch the world go by. She will gladly take that over a walk any day. I thought since I was curtailing training for a couple weeks, I'd let her relax out front like we used to. The first 30 minutes were amazing, she was happy, laying down and relaxing, tongue out enjoying the air, rolling in the grass. She even let a guy riding a bicycle zoom past without a glance. Then the dog showed up. It's across the street and one house down, not super close. I should have brought her in right away, but thought maybe posting a video would help me get some insight on what I can do. It took her a solid hour to calm down in the house. Lesson learned, front yard is off limits for awhile longer.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

There is actually a male GSD on one side of me. She is in LOVE with him. She rubs herself against the fence constantly, whining and trying to get his attention. I've wanted to get them together for awhile now, because they don't react negatively towards each other at all through the fence, and they talk to each other. It's the cutest thing to see. But the neighbor is afraid of Lyka, so he won't bring him over, or let me bring Lyka over to their house, because she tried to attack the owner. I totally understand, but it still makes me a little sad, I think he could help her with her dog reactivate issues a lot.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

jschrest said:


> Okay, the first video is Lyka reacting to a huskie that is across the street from us. I didn't attempt any corrections just to show her reactions. I ended up bringing her back inside because she escalated more after I stopped recording. And this is actually one of her better reactions since ending her training sessions.
> 
> http://youtu.be/SjxafLNVCzo


To be honest this isn't that bad. Midnite was about 20x worse. Corrections were useless with him but focus and redirection worked. How is she without the leash? Same? Midnite only acted that way on leash, even with dogs in my house. That gave me hope that it wasn't aggression but just reactivity. Lyka sounds more frustrated then anything IMO. She gets focused and that's it, you have to make it where she never focused on anything but you, which means during the training process you can't let her or your back at square one. It's a little bit like potty training, one accident can set them completely back. You have to watch your surroundings and get that focus on you before she sees another dog. Then you have to keep that focus by all means necessary. I used different voices, high pitched, happy, moving in the other direction, etc.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

jschrest said:


> There is actually a male GSD on one side of me. She is in LOVE with him. She rubs herself against the fence constantly, whining and trying to get his attention. I've wanted to get them together for awhile now, because they don't react negatively towards each other at all through the fence, and they talk to each other. It's the cutest thing to see. But the neighbor is afraid of Lyka, so he won't bring him over, or let me bring Lyka over to their house, because she tried to attack the owner. I totally understand, but it still makes me a little sad, I think he could help her with her dog reactivate issues a lot.



Long shot here...no leash when she is rubbing against the fence and when in front area on a leash?


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

She gets a whole lot worse than that. Like a whole lot worse. I stopped recording because she started pulling me down. But yes, in the backyard it is off leash, front on leash. She is very leash reactive. I learned early on that if she was leashed when people came inside, her reaction was so so much worse than if she was off leash. So inside, she is in her room when people come in, I have them sit, then let her out. She barks as she approaches, then when she gets to them, she licks them. When on a leash, she will lunge, bark, and nip at ankles. But I'm not comfortable having her off leash around another dog. She doesn't growl, bark, lunge. She waits until they get to her, and then goes straight for the bite. That was in the ridiculous training class. On walks, she reacts the way she did on the video times 10. 

So you think it's more leash reaction than dog aggression?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

jschrest said:


> She gets a whole lot worse than that. Like a whole lot worse. I stopped recording because she started pulling me down. But yes, in the backyard it is off leash, front on leash. She is very leash reactive. I learned early on that if she was leashed when people came inside, her reaction was so so much worse than if she was off leash. So inside, she is in her room when people come in, I have them sit, then let her out. She barks as she approaches, then when she gets to them, she licks them. When on a leash, she will lunge, bark, and nip at ankles. But I'm not comfortable having her off leash around another dog. She doesn't growl, bark, lunge. She waits until they get to her, and then goes straight for the bite. That was in the ridiculous training class. On walks, she reacts the way she did on the video times 10.
> 
> So you think it's more leash reaction than dog aggression?


From the video I do think leash reactivity over aggression. It will take some work, patience, confidence and time but I think you can get her past it. I wouldn't put her in the front on a leash until she is no longer reactive. It took me about 4 straight months of daily training. I would go sit 20 ft away from the door at Petsmart, wait for a dog to come, get focus on me and treat with a super high value treat. Then we would move to the park and do the same thing. After about a week I moved up to two dogs at each location. After a month we went inside the store. All we did is walk around briskly and walk out. Then to the park and walk around, then leave. After about two months we had a solid leave it and watch me. I used the prong with smaller links, never had to correct him with that, he knew and he behaved. It can be a long process, but it can be done. Don't worry about what other people think if she reacts in the beginning. You really have to have eyes in back of your head and be ready to get that watch me and leave it BEFORE she sees another dog. She is never allowed to focus on another dog ever. I used raw venison for treats, quite messy but effective


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Thats what kills me the most. The front yard is her favorite place to be, and she had gotten to the point where she had zero reaction to anything but a cat. Cats are probably going to be a never ending issue. lol. I know I just have to move on, but I keep kicking myself over and over again for using that trainer. All the progress I made with her went right out the window, and she is much worse than she was when I first got her. 

I'm going to drive out to a park tonight after all the people are gone and run her through some agility practice. She loves agility. But then I worry about an off leash or leashed dog coming around and setting her back more. I'm just stuck on what is right and wrong to do with her now. My confidence is shot, and I'm sure she is sensing that, which isn't helping matters.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

You have to walk her with all the confidence you have. She feels it and you will notice a difference.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

jschrest said:


> Thats what kills me the most. The front yard is her favorite place to be, and she had gotten to the point where she had zero reaction to anything but a cat. Cats are probably going to be a never ending issue. lol. I know I just have to move on, but I keep kicking myself over and over again for using that trainer. All the progress I made with her went right out the window, and she is much worse than she was when I first got her.
> 
> I'm going to drive out to a park tonight after all the people are gone and run her through some agility practice. She loves agility. But then I worry about an off leash or leashed dog coming around and setting her back more. I'm just stuck on what is right and wrong to do with her now. My confidence is shot, and I'm sure she is sensing that, which isn't helping matters.


We were pretty far into our training when I met the idiot trainer that got her arm shredded. I remember thinking that it was going to set him back and I screwed up. It didn't set him back, we just kept moving forward. That same trainer was at the event we were at when Midnite got his CGC. I wanted to walk up to her and say remember us?


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I wish I could think of something to help, Jenn. Newlie has had some issues with other dogs, but it was not as bad and it was selective. He seemed to do OK with some dogs, but not others and for me, there was no way of predicting in advance which ones he would have a problem with. It may have had something to do with if he thought a dog was challenging him. I know of two times he growled at a dog that was looking or staring at him. Sometime ago when I was out with him, I saw a man walking his dog. I tried walking across the street with Newlie, slowing down, speeding up and I could not seem to put any distance between us and the other dog. Finally, when we were making the turn for home, the dog started barking at us. Newlie ignored the first round, hesitated at the second round and then wanted to go fight. I jerked him back to me and said "Get up here" and we walked on home. 

Overall, Newlie is better. He doesn't try to fence fight too much and seems better on walks, but I don't think that has much to do with me. Maybe he has just matured. About the only thing I can say that I have done is to be more aware of our surroundings and try to keep an eye out for any potential issues, like a dog in the distance approaching us. I try to see these things before Newlie does and as soon as I see his ears go up, I tell him to leave it. Sometimes, I can just avoid the issue and if I can, I usually do. I don't usually take him places where there are a lot of other dogs, but if I do, like to see a vet, I either stay outside until they are ready for us or keep a lot of distance between him and the other dogs. 

And maybe those times Newlie got to spend the day at his trainer's house interacting (under strict supervision) with the trainer's dogs helped him as well.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> She pulls through prongs. She is so intent on getting to what she wants, she has literally choked herself out trying to get to them (whether person or animal). She was properly fitted by the trainer, but I'm not sure what the brand of prong is, but it does not phase her one bit. The only thing that hasn't been tried at this point is an ecollar.


 Everything?? Yep once again ...I'm that guy! I "hear" from the "Pros" that a Slip Lead leash is kinda tricky to use?? I also hear, that you can't correct a Dog with a Slip Lead leash??

If you will be working with Sean, I'm impressed! I see him doing work with a Prong and a Traffic leash with a Dominant Dog Collar??

Struck "me" as kinda odd?? Although I have never met him, I learned from watching his Q&A Saturdays that I already had that capability with my tool of choice. 

I got two thumbs up from he and his partner on FB for my suggested use of a SLL in a rescue dog situation on FB. 



In any case Lou Castle says "the fastest, most humane and quickest way to train your dog is with the proper use of an E-collar!" And as I understand Lou trained Sean.

Small world indeed!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Chip, the slip lead was the first choice the trainer used. Obviously she (insert random swear word here) wasn't great with dogs with aggression issues, but she trains service dogs with slip leads, so I assume she was using it correctly. It worked on the other dogs that were in the class while we were just observing perfectly. Didn't phase Lyka at all. I haven't tried the dominate collar either, but it has been recommended to me, so I ordered one today. We shall see if she can work with that, or if she just chokes herself out again. 

I am debating working with Sean, hence the post. Not because I don't like his work, but because I'm not sure Skype training is worth the cost at this point. I'm going to reset, wait 2 weeks, and start back at square one with her. If I'm not seeing any progress, or still have low confidence after the cool down, I'll work with him via Skype.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

llombardo, I would have wanted to do the same. In fact, I'm mighty tempted to record all of Lyka's progress and make a movie, and ship it to her certified first class mail once she is trained. But thats the petty me who thinks evil thoughts, I never actually follow through with them! lol


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Newlie, Lyka has far better eye sight then me, I can barely see my hand in front of my face. She alerts me that someone or some animal is near, I never even see them. In the past, seeing her alert meant a quick turn around and walk in the opposite direction. Now it's impossible. I literally have to drag her away in the opposite direction, with her fighting the whole way. 

Instead of agility tonight at the park, we just worked on her place command. My confidence level is zero right now outside the home, and I don't want to work her when she can sense that. Maybe I need a people trainer to train me out of my funk


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> Chip, the slip lead was the first choice the trainer used. Obviously she (insert random swear word here) wasn't great with dogs with aggression issues, but she trains service dogs with slip leads, so I assume she was using it correctly. It worked on the other dogs that were in the class while we were just observing perfectly. Didn't phase Lyka at all. I haven't tried the dominate collar either, but it has been recommended to me, so I ordered one today. We shall see if she can work with that, or if she just chokes herself out again.
> 
> I am debating working with Sean, hence the post. Not because I don't like his work, but because I'm not sure Skype training is worth the cost at this point. I'm going to reset, wait 2 weeks, and start back at square one with her. If I'm not seeing any progress, or still have low confidence after the cool down, I'll work with him via Skype.


 Aww did not know that! OK as I said ...I use the SLL all the time! I took to it like a Duck to water!

As I've said before I'm not a Pro but for some reason I'm very good at what I do ?? I can lay legitimate criticism at my guy "Jeff Gellman" Tyler Muto and Sean O'shea!" And if I pointed it out ...I'm pretty sure everybody could see it!

But those guys train "thousands of dogs" and I have only worked with a handful ...so what do I know! 

Moving on ... I heard Jeff Gellman explain why "Pro's don't train their clients in the use of a Slip Lead Leash! I don't remember the show unfortunately but it does explain, why I had such a fail here:

Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

People were having much more difficulty than I anticipated??? I was stunned, my take away was that it's more about the user than the tool. But I'll keep trying! 

Jeff also said "you can't" correct a dog with a Slip lead leash?? Not my experience but then I have simply never had to! Not even with dogs that I was "told" were notorious puller! I position the SLL high and snug and we simply walk (As I used to say ... just like that ) So bad behaviour ... just never happened with me!

But if you watch Sean work with dogs you will see him using two leashes on a dog??? A prong and a DDC on a short "traffic leash???" He has the traffic leash attached to a DDC collar???

This time I know the episode!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR_tfAVvFdA

He explains "exactly" why he does that! In essence if he stops and talks to someone and the dog starts to get agitated and acting a fool?? He transfers from the Prong to the DDC leash and applies light pressure upward to just lift the dogs feet up until the dog "shuts the heck up" my words not his!

I was stunned??? Since I use "only" a SLL, that meant I already had that capability?? But ...I have never had to use it. Because with "me" the dogs "I" work with just simply don't act like tools??

Now ...all that being said. If you are considering a Skype session?? As it happens I have some observations that may be of value to you?? Sean and Jeff Gellman are friends, Sean is often a guess on Jeff's radio show. And they work very differently. Sean uses way to much "stuff" for me. 

Near as I can tell Sean has his clients using a Prong Collar a DDC and an E collar? Way to much stuff for me! I know "Jeff" also uses an E collar and a Prong Collar but I don't see him routinely using both on the same dog??

I know Jeff's Skype sessions are $400 dollars, I'd consider at least contacting Jeff to see what he can do for you?? 

On FB I'm Sam, if you tell him that's the guy from GSDForum that "complained about his sites lack of organization" he my remember me! 

Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

As I say ...a small world! 

So was this "non arrogant" and "not" "my way or the highway" and stuff???"


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Much better chip . I've actually been watching some of Jeff's videos and am working on the "place" command based off his videos. He gets very long winded and repeats himself a lot, so I find myself zoning out half the time, which probably isn't good, but I do what I can.

I'll look into his skype sessions as well. Thanks for the info


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Lyka is reacting to visual stimuli. If you could reduce her vision, you would dampen her reactivity. If she would tolerate doggles with stickers on the lenses to reduce her vision, it could give you more enrichment options until her reactivity training 'kicks in'.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

jschrest said:


> Newlie, Lyka has far better eye sight then me, I can barely see my hand in front of my face. She alerts me that someone or some animal is near, I never even see them. In the past, seeing her alert meant a quick turn around and walk in the opposite direction. Now it's impossible. I literally have to drag her away in the opposite direction, with her fighting the whole way.
> 
> Instead of agility tonight at the park, we just worked on her place command. My confidence level is zero right now outside the home, and I don't want to work her when she can sense that. Maybe I need a people trainer to train me out of my funk


No, you are doing just fine, you've just been put in very difficult situations recently by circumstances. None of this is your fault, not the puppies and not Lyka. I have only had two dogs and Newlie is the only one who has had issues at times with other dogs, so I am afraid I am not much help. The people who have already posted and some of the others who just haven't had a chance yet will help you all they can. I don't think Kyleigh has posted yet but I saw a pretty long post from her recently about training her dog to focus on her.

Just remember, the only real failure would be to stop trying with Lyka and that would never be you.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks Newlie, I won't give up, that's for sure, I'm just giving in for a couple weeks. I honestly think I need it more than her! 

I woke up at 5 and took her for a hike in the desert this morning. My kids stayed at my brother overnight, so I had that rare opportunity. She loved it. Saw one other person, and while she wasn't perfect, she didn't react super poorly either. 

And yes, the visual thing is huge for her. When I'm not recording stupid videos of her, I do a ton of body blocking. It works well from distances, but doesn't do a dang but of good if we are surprised with a close encounter ( or forced into it by a trainer). I've never heard of doggles, I'll have to look that up, it sounds interesting!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You will get there you did it before. Sometimes you just have to start from the beginning. It takes time and much patience. The trainer here was at fault. I find through my own experience is that finding a trainer who owns german shepherds and works with them are the best choice-for me anyway. Everyone has set backs. Those set backs most likely affect you more then the dog. I am currently learning and finding out the best ways to deal with my dog max (who is 11 month olds )who is dog reactive. In all my years of owning and growing up with dogs never had gone through this. You just have to start over. Yes kyleigh posted a very thorough focusing exercise adding duration. I would practice with no distractions lyka "look at me" and give her a real tasty treat when she does. Practicing this everyday then adding smaller distractions. The idea is for her to focus on you before she is at high threshold otherwise you lost all focus and very hard to get back. I saw the video which was a great idea to post. In the video Lyka is watching the dog and anticipation is building up with each second that goes by forgetting you are right there and getting to the point of no return. It may help to exercise Lyka so she is tired before teaching her not to react to a dog walking down the block. Have lyka focus on you by looking at you and giving her special tasty treats (such as steak, cheese, hot dogs)engaging with you. If she starts to look at the dog give a quick pop on the leash and say leave it. Change direction, walk in a circle something to get her focus on you. I like to do training exercises sit, down, sit, down, get the brain on another level. If we were at the beach i would play with the ball or stick or me now he would be deeply engrossed in it he would barely or care about notice dogs walking passed.I can not have any tension in my leash at all with max or its game over and i loose. If a dog is walking down the block i will say hello what a cute dog what a sweet dog. This relaxes max right away. If he is focused on me or looks relaxed i will praise him up and down. The saying what a sweet dog what a nice dog towards the other dog has helped me tons with max relaxing as he takes his queues from me. If I keep a tight leash he is getting the que from me something is not right and i am anticipating a confrontation -and he would be correct. In training class we would practice the circle 8s in class(i hated this as they use people with their dogs) he would flip out if when a person with their dog walked behind him. When he sat and focused on me during the circle 8 exercise i just continued to say what a good boy he was then give him a treat repeating this before and during they were to walk past and behind us. that seemed to give him much confidence and direction on how i want him to act in the situation and he knew what i wanted. The more encounters that are successful and she understands there is no threat the more she can relax and more so you can relax.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

jschrest said:


> This video is when she was in a nice down, and first saw the dog. I did minor corrections, and she settled when the dog went behind a tree out of sight.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU4nKM6-blY


Okay, I don't mean to be a Negative Nellie...but...I can see a couple of things that might be setting her up for failure here.

1) Why are you letting her go over threshold like that? The whole idea of this type of training is to work with the dog before they lose their minds. I agree with middleofnowhere. BACK UP. If you're getting reactivity, you're over threshold and at that point you're doing nothing but habituating the behavior.

2) What kind of behavior are you asking her to substitute with? I watched the videos and saw a dog that was not doing any directed work. No focus work. She becomes hyper-vigilant, which means that you have already lost her to the reactive behavior. THEN a human steps in and starts giving commands that she ignores. Too little. Too late. It isn't enough to ask a dog to NOT do something. You have to explicitly teach and use a behavior that you DO want. Focus on you! When you asked her to "sit" in the second clip, she did. But it was an afterthought. She was still zeroed in on the other dog. You have lost her before you ever get started. No eye contact. That sit was incidental. You should have her at the distance where you can still get her attention on you, and you should be *doing *something with her. Heeling. Sits. Downs. Eye contact. Quick. Quick. Quick. Mix it up. Changes in direction. Have a few teeny, tiny pieces of her most highly valued treat tucked into your cheek and spit a piece at her when she makes eye contact. Then immediately turn and have her heeling as you do it. 

3) That harness/vest thing is doing you no favors. I think you might inadvertently be building excitement and reactivity with it.

You need to find a good trainer and stick with it. Even if you have to drive a ways to get to that trainer. I know how frustrating it can be to work with a reactive dog. My old man GSD has been reactive since the day he came out of the crate at the airport. There was never a linear progression in working with him. There were days when it was two steps forward and then three steps back. There were training plateaus and walls. There were times when I had to swallow my ego and admit that my crappy timing was making it worse. There were times when I had to forgo other activities because I had to travel to work with the right trainer. And it cost money to train, which meant that I had to set priorities.

I don't mean this to sound harsh. I really don't. But...it is one thing to say that you're committed to the dog and working through her issues and it is another thing entirely to follow through with the hard work that comes with owning and training a dog like this. So the qualified trainer is three hours away? Go train in person every other week (or every three weeks; whatever you can swing) and do the Skype thing in between. Talk to the trainer and see what you can work out. Even if you have to bite the bullet and travel those three hours weekly for four or five weeks? Time and effort well spent if it gets you out of this training hole you have fallen into. 

To be honest, she doesn't seem that crazy reactive to me. She seems like your typical GSD that has been left to build her own reactions and behaviors to the world around her, in the absence of training and direction from humans. 

I hope I haven't offended you. Good luck with her. 
Sheilah


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Sheila, not offended at all, I'm completely open to constructive criticism. I intentionally didn't do anything in the video to show what her reactions are. It wasn't a training session at all. I just wanted to get a video of how she reacts, and that was actually a good reaction on her part. I had to stop recording when she escalated, because I needed both hands to keep from being drug by her. It would be way easier if I had someone doing the recording for me, but no one will get near her. In normal circumstances, I do redirect or block, that was just for video purposes. 

As for the traveling, it's obviously the best thing I could do, but I'm a single mom, so it would mean dragging the kids with me on a 6hr trip (round trip) and having them with me during sessions. Then you factor in the costs, and being a single income, it makes it impossible financially for me. The sessions alone are expensive, and the added cost to travel make it even more impossible. There is nothing more I would love than to be able to afford that. I just can't. The costs are more than what I make, and we still have to live, ya know?

As for the vest, it's probably not helping, but it's a safety measure for me. When she starts to drag me, I can grab onto the handle, it lifts her front paws off the ground, so she can't go anywhere and drag me with her.

I've put in a lot of time with her. She had improved drastically from what she was when I first got her, but she wasn't 100%, which is when I went to the trainer from hades who set us back. She used to ignore dogs behind fences, dogs across the street, dogs on the same side if I curved around them after a month of working with her. Now she reacts to dogs at any distance. 


Jenny, those are all wonderful suggestions, thank you! I'll see what I can implimemt into her training at home while I'm doing the 2 week break. Exercise is hard because she doesn't play at all, so no fetch, no tug, flirt poles make her cower and hide. And generally when I can take her somewhere, it's at night, and my kids are in bed sleeping. Daytime is out not only because of it being more populated, but because the temps here are still at 110. So she has little physical exercise, which I KNOW isn't helping, I just don't know what to do. Besides get over my fat wheezing and push through our backyard runs for more than 20 minutes! Lol


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## joneser (Jun 9, 2014)

You're being really hard on yourself :-/ 
Training is definitely not a canned process where every step is a step forward...you know this! I agree with what others posted about redirection, if she loves food then get out those treats and become her favorite Pez dispenser. Small baby steps, few minutes at a time. I also agree on trying a prong with small teeth...this is the one I have, I also ought a pack of extra links. Some good Michael Ellis videos on youtube on training with the prong. 

Pet Pinch Collars : Amazon.com: Herm Sprenger Pinch Collar, 12-Inch, 2-1/4-Mm


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

jschrest said:


> In normal circumstances, I do redirect or block, that was just for video purposes.
> 
> As for the traveling, it's obviously the best thing I could do, but I'm a single mom, so it would mean dragging the kids with me on a 6hr trip (round trip) and having them with me during sessions. Then you factor in the costs, and being a single income, it makes it impossible financially for me. The sessions alone are expensive, and the added cost to travel make it even more impossible. There is nothing more I would love than to be able to afford that. I just can't. The costs are more than what I make, and we still have to live, ya know?
> 
> ...


If you're finding yourself redirecting or blocking, then you're too close for training purposes. You have already lost her focus. 

I totally get the issues you face with time and money. I was also a single parent once upon a time. I will tell you the same thing a trainer told me a long, long time ago: you can try to nickel and dime the problem away or you can bite the bullet and do it right from the get go. Look, even if you can only afford to swing one session with a really good trainer, that is one session more than you have now. So what if you have to bring your kids with you? At least one of them is old enough to supervise any younger ones, right? They'll survive one day trip. If they can spend the night with a relative now, why can't they spend a night with a relative so you can spend a day training without them? 

Perhaps this trainer can recommend someone closer to you? Have you discussed your options fully with the qualified trainer? Have you shared your general location with forum members who might be able to recommend someone? 

Are you familiar with the "Control Unleashed" protocol? This was very helpful with my dog. There is a book and a fairly large group of trainers all across the country who have foundation knowledge of how to implement the protocol. 

I have seen a lot of dog owners fall into a routine of supported (professionally supervised) training, then a lapse in that training for whatever reason (didn't feel like it was working, didn't agree with methods, too expensive, too time consuming, etc.), then a crisis (dog bit someone, dog attacked another dog, etc.), then more supported training, then a lapse in that training...and so on. It goes on an on, and nothing ever gets resolved. There is just this endless cycle. I hope that you don't fall into this cycle. It is frustrating for you the owner and frustrating for the dog. 

Good luck! Sometimes the hardest dogs are the ones we learn the most from.
Sheilah


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jschrest said:


> I am hopeful I'll eventually get her working with a good trainer and even a club next year when I move to Cali.


What part of California will you be moving to?


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I took agility lessons from a lady who made these cool little treat toys for dogs that didn't have a whole lot of play drive (or any play drive, as the case may be). 

She made these little pouches that looked like bean bags, without the beans. She had one end closed with Velcro. She would place small pieces of the dog's most highly valued food reward in the pouch and let the dog interact with the pouch in her hand. She would reward with a tiny piece of the food from the pouch and then build up to tossing the pouch a couple of feet away and having the dog walk to the pouch. She would reward with pieces from the pouch.

She was able to build a fairly good retrieve this way. OP, if your dog is food motivated, use that to your advantage. 
Sheilah


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Yes, I could get someone to take the girls overnight if it was a weekend. Yes, I can swing one session if I plan ahead and cut back on everything (like the dance lessons and cable) I just thought one session wouldn't be worth it? I really am willing to give anything a shot. But when it's a $800 dollar shot, it's a big deal financially for me for it not to be helpful, if that makes any sense? The nickel and dime thing makes perfect sense, it's basically what I've been doing, and if I added up all the costs of the crap trainer, the collars, leashes, vests, toys, signs, latches, locks, and baby gates, it's well over $800. I went through all my savings doing that, and caring for her litter, and medical expenses. It's been exhausting financially and emotionally, and maybe if I'm honest, I've been massively burnt out, and am using the issues as a way to give myself a break.

My boys (the older 2) don't live with me full time. They wanted to finish high school in FL, so I get them for all holidays, summer, and 2 weeks every 6 weeks while they are on break. The majority of my income goes towards their airline costs. So I have the 6 and 3 year old schedules I have to work around. It makes it more difficult, but not impossible. 

I haven't done the yoyo thing with Lyka until now. It's been full on with no lapse until now, and like I said, I think I'm just so burnt out and depressed and exhausted I am lapsing. Thanks for the wake up call, it was much needed.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

That treat thing sounds amazing. She is massively food motivated. I have some scrap fabric and a sewing machine, I'll try to whip one up today. Great suggestion, thank you!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I will be moving very near San Luis Obispo. 20 minute drive from my home in Santa Margarita.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

sit said:


> *Good luck! Sometimes the hardest dogs are the ones we learn the most from.*
> Sheilah


 
1oo% YES!

Shadow totally destroyed my confidence in myself. Me, the woman who trained a deaf Great Dane into a therapy dog twenty years ago when deaf dogs got PTS. Me, who rehabbed a dog no one could even get out of his crate he was so violent. 
Don't waste time beating yourself up, we all make mistakes. It's what we learn from them that's important. Do the best you can with what you have. 
I do have one question though, do you hold her leash when you are walking her? I was telegraphing my nerves to Shadow through the leash, now we walk with her leash looped around my waist and there is a massive improvement. Should have thought of it sooner, since I know from riding how easy it is to transmit tension/fear. We all make mistakes and overlook things, especially when we are emotionally invested.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> This video is when she was in a nice down, and first saw the dog. I did minor corrections, and she settled when the dog went behind a tree out of sight.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU4nKM6-blY


 I'd be happy to share my "observations" on this clip if you'd like??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> 1oo% YES!
> 
> Shadow totally destroyed my confidence in myself. Me, the woman who trained a deaf Great Dane into a therapy dog twenty years ago when deaf dogs got PTS. Me, who rehabbed a dog no one could even get out of his crate he was so violent.
> Don't waste time beating yourself up, we all make mistakes. It's what we learn from them that's important. Do the best you can with what you have.
> I do have one question though, do you hold her leash when you are walking her? I was telegraphing my nerves to Shadow through the leash, now we walk with her leash looped around my waist and there is a massive improvement. Should have thought of it sooner, since I know from riding how easy it is to transmit tension/fear. We all make mistakes and overlook things, especially when we are emotionally invested.


 I can tag on here with a resounding "YES!"


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Sabi, thanks. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who has felt utterly defeated like this. I'm still working in her commands inside, just not on her issues outside. And yes, I hold her leash, and take a Xanax lately before walks. That's another admittance of shame right there  I'll try her out tonight with a short walk with her leash around my waist, thanks for the suggestion.

Chip, if you're referring to the collar, that is something a coworker lent me that she said worked wonders on her dog. First time I used it, and I hated it. It's some weird combo of plastic flat leash and martingale. She normally has on a regular flat collar and leash, in addition to the vest. But like I said, I'm open to any and all constructive criticism and advice right now.

I spent the last couple hours making a "place" bed and the treat pouch mentioned earlier, but I need to get some Velcro. That was something fun and positive to do, not to mention free until I get the Velcro! Lol

A new group opened on FB yesterday for pet behavioral issues, and I've already found a partner willing to trade sessions with me. She'll be my human distraction and then I'll be hers, so we can switch back and forth working our dogs without the dogs having to be anywhere near each other. And someone who said they are a trainer (haven't verified this yet, so I'm not jumping up and down yet), volunteered to watch us and give advice and tips, and eventually incorporate the dogs. My volunteer has a fearful dog as well, but the opposite reaction. He cowers, urinates, and hides around everyone. We are going to meet sans dogs on Saturday and go through game plans and make sure we like each other first . Wish me luck on that one, I'm a tough pill to swallow for most people. Lol


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

jschrest said:


> Sabi, thanks. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who has felt utterly defeated like this. I'm still working in her commands inside, just not on her issues outside. And yes, I hold her leash, and take a Xanax lately before walks. That's another admittance of shame right there  I'll try her out tonight with a short walk with her leash around my waist, thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> Chip, if you're referring to the collar, that is something a coworker lent me that she said worked wonders on her dog. First time I used it, and I hated it. It's some weird combo of plastic flat leash and martingale. She normally has on a regular flat collar and leash, in addition to the vest. But like I said, I'm open to any and all constructive criticism and advice right now.
> 
> ...


*
*
I think that sounds like it could be very helpful.


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

Here's what I would try.

Using a harness no collar clip the leash to the harness.

[A cheating method: Give your Dog some Benadryl [ I would test one tablet as some dogs will actually get hyper on it as opposed to relaxed]] then while shes calm on the front lawn feed her nice steak any time she looks at a dogs and acts how you want. If she reacts take her inside right away then after the coast is clear take her out again. If she loves the front that much she will soon realize that reacting like that brings her inside and it could help.

Apex would always try and run down every dog that came around when we were playing fetch since I wouldn't use a prong during this time I had no way to correct the behavior so what I did is the second he started I reeled him in said no and forced him home. Then I took him out after a few minutes and the second he did it same thing. 

Now aside from about 2 dogs he will just stand there looking at them and not react. For some reason there are 2 dogs in my neighborhood which he ****ing hates and will go bat **** crazy when they cross our path.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I haven't read the entire thread and I'm going to send you a PM, but I would recommend checking out this video series- Aggression DVD – (He’s not friendly) | Mango Dogs Media. I have not watched the entire thing, but I've seen short clips, so I can't actually attest to content, but from what I know of the trainer, it might be very useful for you.

It is very pricey, go to BowWowFlix and see if they might have a rental. At that price, I wouldn't buy right now, to be honest, but it might well be worth it! He does use e-collars.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> Much better chip . I've actually been watching some of Jeff's videos and am working on the "place" command based off his videos. He gets very long winded and repeats himself a lot, so I find myself zoning out half the time, which probably isn't good, but I do what I can.
> 
> I'll look into his skype sessions as well. Thanks for the info


 Ah ... thanks for the props!!

Been "trying" harder to "Play Well With Others!" 

I "prefer" Jeff because I work much the same way he does. He also uses an E-Collar and most likely learned from Sean, who learned from Lou!

Don't want to make it seem like his Q&A Saturdays have "No Value" however!
I find them to be very informative! I learned that the DDC does not have to be used as a "battle axe" from Sean! 

The dual leash thing?? Always bugged/confused the crap out of me?? And I finally heard him explain the why of it?? "Gentle" upward pressure on the "traffic leash" attached to the DDC to correct the dog! 

I was stunned! I'd never considered it could be used like that?? SLL leash you can do the exact same thing with! But I'd also considered a SLL as a "Hammer" for a Dog Gone Wild situation!" 

I liked using it simply because I could position it properly on the dog ... "high and snug" and it would stay there long enough for me to "show the dog" ...things have changed?? 

Pretty much as "simple as that" a slight tug "sideways" with a correctly positioned SSL or Regular Collar and the point is made! Just that simple ... for me anyway. I have never had a leash "reactivity problem" with a dog?? Just doesn't happen??

But apparently if I had ...I also had the tool I needed to deal with it! I learned that from Sean! The two thumbs up thing??On FB a trainer wanting to work with a difficult "Shelter Dog" situation needed a Prong Collar, and of course they can't use a E-Collar or a Prong Collar on one of those dogs! Apparently "most" Shelter's would rather put a dog down, then change their "point of view" on a tool.

I saw the situation and merely "suggested" that a "SSL" slips in under the Radar for Shelter Dog situations. (no pun intended) A DDC in "disguise" as it were! 

Most rescues and shelter's use them, merely because they are convenient! They don't have a clue on how to "properly use one!"

So a SSL leash can be used as a DDC, was the suggestion I made on FB for that situation! And I got two thumbs up from Sean and his partner!

Apparently he never saw that use for it and neither did I?? But he used a DDC and I use a SSL I just saw the "connection!" 

So I learn a lot from him but he just uses way too much "stuff" for my taste! As I said a Prong Collar, E collar a traffic leash and a DDC??

Way too much "crap" for my taste, not at all my "KISS" approach but hey He's a "Pro" and I am not ...so what do I know??

In contrast "Jeff Gellman" ...not a lot of "crap" being used by him! 

So my motto is pretty much the same tag line as his show ..."What would Jeff do??"


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Chip, I personally do the dual leash for my own safety. I have a bum shoulder that dislocates easily, and Lyka has popped it a few times. No fun. So distributing the weight from her lunging between two leashes held in opposite hands makes it stay in place . Yes, I know the best thing would be to get her in a state were no pulling or lunging is happening, but we aren't there yet, and I want to save myself the agony of another dislocated shoulder. I'll check into Jeff's Q&A. Thanks for the suggestions. 

Hopefully Sabi's trick with her leash being around my waist will work, then I can work with just the one leash. 

Axel, that sounds like a great idea. Hopefully I can get her "place" command cemented in the next week or two, because even after I bring her back inside she is at high alert jumping from window to window. She is basically always at a high alert, except when sleeping, being brushed, or training. She just never gives up. I can't imagine how she feels at that constant high level. I'd probably be pretty aggressive myself if I was always on the lookout. 

And I just wanted to say thank you all for the great input, and the PM's I've received. I've been given tons of great advice and tips and tricks to try out. I've just got to decide what tool (collar wise) to use since I've gotten so many varied responses. And then start a plan and put it into action.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> Chip, I personally do the dual leash for my own safety. I have a bum shoulder that dislocates easily, and Lyka has popped it a few times. No fun. So distributing the weight from her lunging between two leashes held in opposite hands makes it stay in place . Yes, I know the best thing would be to get her in a state were no pulling or lunging is happening, but we aren't there yet, and I want to save myself the agony of another dislocated shoulder. I'll check into Jeff's Q&A. Thanks for the suggestions.
> 
> Hopefully Sabi's trick with her leash being around my waist will work, then I .


Dual leashes?? I did not see that in your clip?? I "assumed" that was a Martingale collar?? My reference was to what I saw Sean doing. Not you. 

You didn't ask but ... I'll say anyway! 

In the clip I referenced the first thing I see ... "is the collar is to low on the dog." It's positioned right above the shoulders the dogs strongest point! And what "I" saw was a pull straight back for a correction?? If so ...that's not going to work. 

Same tools same dog, I would position "whatever" the collar is "high and tight" most likely if I "sensed" the Dog was gonna act a fool?? I'd give a slight but frim tug "sideways" to throw the dog off balance! Dogs don't much care for that!

And if you have a situation where the dog remains in place but is still clearly agitated?? A tip I got from David Trainer, pop them on the head with the loose end of the leash! That worked great on Rocky! He looked up at me, like what the heck was that?? The dogs behind the fence barking in his face, "forgotten" he settled right down!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm ... just saw the mention of the "collar thing" not sure how that happened?? In any case whatever it is?? I would have still done as I had stated.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Chip, that's where I start to feel uncomfortable. I'm working with a rescue dog with previous abuse. Even a loud shout at my kids shuts her down for hours. I reactively gave her a pop on her muzzle once when she snapped my hand trying to snap a treat during training (it HURT and I reacted without thinking) and she cowered and hid from me for days. A leash correction, no problem. Doesn't bother her. But I'm pretty sure a pop with the end of the leash would be a setback, not something that would snap her out of whatever she was focused on. 

As for the video, I did a piss poor job for multiple reasons. One, I was sitting on a brick paver, so I was lower to the ground than her. Two, I was videoing with one hand, so I had less control of her. Three, I didn't show any of the corrections I would generally do because I was just trying to show her reactions. The sit and tug I have her was because I was bare foot and she was tearing about the tops of my feet dancing all over them, and I was just trying to get her off them . The two leashes aren't on one collar. One clips to the collar (normally a flat collar) and the second is clipped to her vest. I hold the leash with my injured arm that is connected to the collar because their is less pull from the collar than from the leash attached to the vest. 

I did a very tight measurement per Leerburgs video on proper fitting for the DDC, so it shouldn't be an issue keeping it high and tight. If that doesn't work, I'm thinking my last hope tool wise will be the ecollar.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Make sure when you loop the leash around your waist you put the end behind your back. If it is at the front or the side it will keep tightening around you and make it uncomfortable.

They sell waist attachments, but I'm cheap aka-broke


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Sabi, how exactly do you loop it? I put it through all the loops of my pants like I would a belt, threaded the clip part through the hand loop, then clipped it to her collar. I'm thinking this isn't correct? I walked around the back yard with her to try it out, and it worked well, but felt rather odd.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

jschrest said:


> Sabi, how exactly do you loop it? I put it through all the loops of my pants like I would a belt, threaded the clip part through the hand loop, then clipped it to her collar. I'm thinking this isn't correct? I walked around the back yard with her to try it out, and it worked well, but felt rather odd.


 Ha I'm way to lazy for that. Just make a loop, leash through handle, step into it, put it around your waist, slide the handle/end of leash to the center of your back and off you go.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Oh, okay, thanks! I was wondering how it was going to work when I wore my workout shorts or yoga pants! I can really be a blond sometime.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> Chip, that's where I start to feel uncomfortable. I'm working with a rescue dog with previous abuse. Even a loud shout at my kids shuts her down for hours. I reactively gave her a pop on her muzzle once when she snapped my hand trying to snap a treat during training (it HURT and I reacted without thinking) and she cowered and hid from me for days. A leash correction, no problem. Doesn't bother her. But I'm pretty sure a pop with the end of the leash would be a setback, not something that would snap her out of whatever she was focused on.
> 
> As for the video, I did a piss poor job for multiple reasons. One, I was sitting on a brick paver, so I was lower to the ground than her. Two, I was videoing with one hand, so I had less control of her. Three, I didn't show any of the corrections I would generally do because I was just trying to show her reactions. The sit and tug I have her was because I was bare foot and she was tearing about the tops of my feet dancing all over them, and I was just trying to get her off them . The two leashes aren't on one collar. One clips to the collar (normally a flat collar) and the second is clipped to her vest. I hold the leash with my injured arm that is connected to the collar because their is less pull from the collar than from the leash attached to the vest.
> 
> I did a very tight measurement per Leerburgs video on proper fitting for the DDC, so it shouldn't be an issue keeping it high and tight. If that doesn't work, I'm thinking my last hope tool wise will be the ecollar.


 I'm sorry not meaning to "pick on you!" 

Just trying to help. I screwed up using a "Prong Collar" on my first dog he was fine off leash and crap on leash, so being somewhat of an extremist, I went the opposite direction flat leash and collar! And I got very good with that! So when I first "used" a SLL, leash for the first time ... it was a piece of cake for "me!"

I heard "Jeff" give "props up" to people that can train a dog with a SLL and at that point I realized ... oh that's me??? 

So even if I do "advocate" "Balanced Training" apparently I'm on the extreme edge of that range?? 

Hence my "analysis" of the clip! In a nutshell the collar was to low to be effective. If that part was wrong?? Everything else would just make it worst.

E-Collar is not my thing but as I say Lou says *"The fastest easiest and most humane way to train your dog is with the proper use of an E-Collar!" *

I take him at his word! So if that is the direction you want to go Lou, Sean or Jeff are "still" going to be your best sources and out of those three ... as I said Lou taught Sean and Sean taught Jeff! 

Those guys would most likely be your best bet to find a trainer "local to you also." 

KISS does "not" work for everyone!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Chip, I don't feel picked on at all. I was just saying that I've got to find a balance on what works for emotional/mentally healthy dog, and an abused rescue dog. I neither want to baby her and allow her to get away with poor behavior, or over correct and shut her down. It's a fine line I have to watch out for. I don't want a cowed dog, nor do I want an out of control brat.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Discussing how to keep possession of the leash while a large dog is lunging and dragging the handler down the street is like discussing how best to latch the barn door after the horse has taken off.

Once the dog gets to that place in her own head, where she is so reactive that the handler can't control her? That is not training her to do anything but lose her mind and lunge and and act like an idiot. Yes, I know. The clips provided here were for demonstration purposes only. But remember this: every time we interact with our dogs, we are training them. It doesn't matter what our purpose is regarding the interaction. And every time she is allowed to get to that place in her head, she is habituating that behavior.

OP, you need help with this dog. You need good, sound, qualified help with this dog. You will get a lot of feedback from the internet. Some of it will be horrible and some of it will be good. You won't be able to tell the difference. The only rational solution to your problem is to get qualified, professional help from someone who is right there with you.
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

jschrest said:


> Chip, I don't feel picked on at all. I was just saying that I've got to find a balance on what works for emotional/mentally healthy dog, and an abused rescue dog. I neither want to baby her and allow her to get away with poor behavior, or over correct and shut her down. It's a fine line I have to watch out for. I don't want a cowed dog, nor do I want an out of control brat.


You need to let go of what this dog's previous life was like. It really doesn't matter at this point, and your assumptions about her are getting in the way of your work with her. It is my understanding that you have no real knowledge of what her life was like? That you have been told things and that you have filled in the blanks based on her behavior? 

I have fostered a fair number of dogs over the years. Even the soft ones needed a correction when they acted like jerks. Even the soft ones took the correction when it was fair and quick.
Sheilah


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Sheilah, that made me laugh. That's very much what is going on, closing the latch after the fact. 

I've listened hard to all the advice given, weeded through it, had a come to Jesus moment with myself, and made a decision. I will stick with the 2 week shut down for my own sake, I won't be doing her any favors trying to work with her in my current mental state. I'll ramp up her basic command training, she can always use more of that, and I will start saving to get her assessed in Phoenix next month. It's the soonest I'll be able to swing it money wise. In the meantime, I'll just avoid putting her in situations where a bad reaction can happen, and I'll put down the recording device . 

My timing with her sucks, and I know that is the majority of the issue, and it's not something that can be taught via web. I know I need a trainer to train me. I've just got to get over my trainer fear and go for it. 

If anyone has any knowledge and experience with a good GSD trainer in the Phoenix AZ area, please let me know! I'd rather use someone that is recommended than go with my obviously poor instinct when it comes to a good trainer  The San Diego CA area is about the same driving distance, so I am open to suggestions from other areas. I'm currently in Yuma, AZ. 

And last, a picture, because those are never a bad thing, right??


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

jschrest said:


> Sheilah, that made me laugh. That's very much what is going on, closing the latch after the fact.
> 
> I've listened hard to all the advice given, weeded through it, had a come to Jesus moment with myself, and made a decision. I will stick with the 2 week shut down for my own sake, I won't be doing her any favors trying to work with her in my current mental state. I'll ramp up her basic command training, she can always use more of that, and I will start saving to get her assessed in Phoenix next month. It's the soonest I'll be able to swing it money wise. In the meantime, I'll just avoid putting her in situations where a bad reaction can happen, and I'll put down the recording device .
> 
> ...


I think that you have to find someone that knows the breed to evaluate her. I liked the trainer that evaluated Midnite, even though she wasn't strictly a GSD person. Once I was told that it was leash reactivity and not aggression I was able to move forward. I dreaded taking him anywhere, I was embarrassed and scared. He was a new experience for me for sure. I seen several trainers and I didn't care for the complete package of each one, but I did take a little from each of them and create my own training. I knew he needed to be in a class and I had to get him there. He wasn't allowed in any classes for a while, which was hard. Do I had to work on one thing before the other. I am so proud of him, he turned into the dog I thought he was. It was worth all the time and frustration I felt. 

This is Midnite and Berlin(another member here) at a Dock Diving Event(this was less then a month after we started the GSD club and the same day he got his CGC) and dogs were everywhere-no Issues--yay!!


And a puppy that Midnite fell in love with that day....


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

jschrest said:


> There is actually a male GSD on one side of me. She is in LOVE with him. She rubs herself against the fence constantly, whining and trying to get his attention. I've wanted to get them together for awhile now, because they don't react negatively towards each other at all through the fence, and they talk to each other. It's the cutest thing to see. But the neighbor is afraid of Lyka, so he won't bring him over, or let me bring Lyka over to their house, because she tried to attack the owner. I totally understand, but it still makes me a little sad, I think he could help her with her dog reactivate issues a lot.


And I know you know this, but that isn't your neighbor's job, nor is it his dog's. I'd be keeping my dog FAR away from yours, to the point of not letting her in the backyard unsupervised when yours was out. Too much risk.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks for the helpful advice Waterytart.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Llombardo, that's an awesome pic. I'm looking forward to a time I can have a side by side like that as well. Hopefully the next trainer I chose isn't an idiot like the first. That's my biggest fear. She did teach me a lot of good things in the beginning, and led me to trust her through that training, then I was kinda blindsided by the dog interaction portion. I should have pulled Lyka after the first incident. Hindsight sucks


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

jschrest said:


> Thanks for the helpful advice Waterytart.


I'm sorry you're sad about it, but I appreciate that you understand why he's leery. His responsibility is to his dog, and I'm glad for his dog's sake that he's taking that seriously. I hope you can find a trainer that works for you and Lyka!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> I'm sorry you're sad about it, but I appreciate that you understand why he's leery. His responsibility is to his dog, and I'm glad for his dog's sake that he's taking that seriously. I hope you can find a trainer that works for you and Lyka!


Maybe I worded that poorly. I'm not sad that he won't allow an interaction, I'm sad that she is so reactive she can't have interaction. I don't fault that owner at all. 

I have posted previously that she is non reactive to male GSD's. I don't know what the deal is there, but she has literally no reactive issues towards them. She will even tolerate a very submissive female GSD. It's other breeds that seem to cause reactions. Walking down the street, if she sees another GSD, she gets excited and wags her tail. No barking, lunging, nada, just happiness.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You will get where you want to be with the right help. My trainer owns a reactive german shepherd has been such a big helping teaching me how to guide max in how to behave around other dogs. I hope you get a good recommendation for a trainer as you will need someone to help you with your timing. As timing is everything:grinning:. Lyka is there to give you a crash course in dogs!!!!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> ...as I understand Lou trained Sean.


To be completely accurate, by the time Sean came to work with me he was already a good dog trainer. I just showed him what I do and he stole some of it, with my blessings, of course.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks for clearing that up Lou . Anytime you want to teach me to not be a crap trainer with Lyka, I'm all ears


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> To be completely accurate, by the time Sean came to work with me he was already a good dog trainer. I just showed him what I do and he stole some of it, with my blessings, of course.


I see, 

I'll change it to "worked" with Lou in the future! 

I do see the "Balanced Trainers" using the E collars a lot. I assume for "shaping behaviours" and "proofing??"


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Apexk9 said:


> Here's what I would try.
> 
> Using a harness no collar clip the leash to the harness.
> 
> ...



I would not suggest giving Benadryl as a training method.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Just thought I would check in.

Did the leash around the waist work? How is she doing?


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## MickeyD (Nov 8, 2011)

If you are still looking for a trainer to do an assessment in Phx, I'd recommend Tino at Quality K9 (Dog Obedience Training Phoenix - Dog Training Phoenix). He is experienced with GSD's.


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