# Breaking up dog fights by yourself



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Breaking up a dog fight with 2 people can be difficult enough, I'm wondering how others have dealt with them on their own? Assuming both dogs involved are known.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

our two girls fight.

I've tossed a sheet over them. Lights out seems to jar them. 

I've grabbed my GSD by her collar and walked in between them. As soon as I touch her, she's done fighting so that helps.

If the boxer has the GSD by the throat, which is where she go for, then breaking it up is harder. She clamps down and nothing can get her off except brute force. It's been a long time since there was a fight.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Broke up a fight one time in my living room between two Dobe bitches trying to kill each other. I think I used a broom and a chair. Ugh. I don't want to ever have to do that again.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Ouch!, by the throat, she means business. I like the sheet idea.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Do you mean two of your own dogs or somebody else's dog attacking yours?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do you mean two of your own dogs or somebody else's dog attacking yours?


Your own or yours and friends type of situation.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

If my dogs, I will usually yank the aggressor back by the tail while verbally backing down the dog being attacked. I have used a chair on the aggressor, and once I poured water on the aggressor, both with success. Rarely do any two of my dogs fight with equal aggression (usually male/female), but when they do, once again I grab the tail of the dog least likely to verbally back off while backing down the more biddable dog.

The only other time my dogs have access to other people's dogs unfettered are in dog parks and those people are real quick to pile in and break up any fights.

I have heard of tying one dog by the waist and tying it to a door handle or other stationary item, or closing the leash in the door and securing one dog and then leashing the other dog by the waist and separating the dogs. I have heard of getting dogs in a doorway and basically closing it on their heads until they release and then shutting the door. 

Of course if you plan on allowing a bully breed access to your dog, a break stick is a must. 

And then again, you may want to try this unsavory method:


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline;8131025[B said:


> ]If my dogs, I will usually yank the aggressor back by the tail while verbally backing down the dog being attacked. I have used a chair on the aggressor, and once I poured water on the aggressor, both with success. Rarely do any two of my dogs fight with equal aggression (usually male/female), but when they do, once again I grab the tail of the dog least likely to verbally back off while backing down the more biddable dog[/B].
> 
> The only other time my dogs have access to other people's dogs unfettered are in dog parks and those people are real quick to pile in and break up any fights.
> 
> ...


Bolded- this is how I've dealt with them too, only I grabbed the back legs. Years ago I had a lab with a screw loose and this worked well with him. If I controlled him I could get my malamute to back off.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

The only dogs I have owned that fought seriously were, believe it or not, my three French Bulldogs. When a fight would break out, I would try pulling one back by the back legs, but the other one would always always continue trying to grab the other. Regardless of who instigated the fight, both dogs were always totally committed to continuing the fight. One time, I lifted one Frenchie up by the back legs off the floor, and the other dog also was lifted up because neither would let go! Frenchies may be small, but they are all bully. Very scarey situation. I cannot imagine trying to separate two larger dogs!


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

I am not without experience in this arena.

My standard routine is to grab the closest dog by the collar and get his front legs off the ground. Having their front feet off the ground disorients them.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Minor scuffle - and I usually just run in pull them apart. I've gotten the occasional redirected bite. It was never a bad bite and that immediately stopped things. They'd see I meant business and the biter would go "Oh no! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to bite YOU". They'd take on submissive poses and it'd be hunky dory.

Serious fight - back tie the losing dog. Pull the tight againdt the tie. Stand behind the other squeezing his flanks between my thighs. Noose him. Tighten the noose and lift the front feet off the ground in the old school hanging them out way. Pull them apart. If it's a pit bull use a break stick. 

Luckily I've only had to break up 3 serious fights. And actually none of them were my personal dogs.

I think dog fights are one of those things where an ounce of prevention is worth 100 lbs of the cure. I see a lot of owners being woefully ignorant about warning signs and pack dynamics. Im willing to bet that most fights between your own dogs can be prevented with a crate and rotate lifestyle and careful management of resources.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

one of the easiest ways is to maneuver the 2 into a doorway and use banging the door against them to part them and close the door.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Well that thumb up butt method did not seem super effective to me. 

The very few fights I have had with my personal dog, a good holler from me stops it. Once years ago I grabbed collars and got bit in the process. 

Now, I flank them. Guaranteed to stop, but you gotta do it on the aggressor. And there is a good chance if doing it alone that the dog will turn and redirect on you. And then you have to be capable of keeping them apart.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I've been breaking fights up since I was like 12. We had a couple dogs growing up that would fight every now and then. Back then there was almost an injury to one of the dogs every time. As I got older and got my own dogs I think I've used every method out there. I have found that not any one method works and it really depends on what you have available to you at the time. I have been bit a couple times and in the last scuffle I fractured my thumb--it got twisted in the collar. I've been lucky that in most cases one of the dogs isn't fighting back as much. I've also gotten lucky that it stays between two dogs, with sometimes a third. I always seem to be alone when they decide to fight too. All my dogs tend to go for the neck too. I generally grab the aggressor by the collar(never been bit this way). I have been bit if my hands get near where they are attacking the other dog. My worst bite was when I put my leg in front of the aggressive dog and I took the bite for the other dog. I get like super strength when I'm breaking them up--I have had a dog in each hand lifted off the ground. I'm sore for a couple days after wards. 

I try to avoid fights and stay on top of it, because they could do serious damage if they really wanted to.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Well that thumb up butt method did not seem super effective to me.
> 
> The very few fights I have had with my personal dog, a good holler from me stops it. Once years ago I grabbed collars and got bit in the process.
> 
> Now, I flank them. Guaranteed to stop, but you gotta do it on the aggressor. And there is a good chance if doing it alone that the dog will turn and redirect on you. And then you have to be capable of keeping them apart.


Actually that method is reputed to be very effective. It wasn't in this situation because the dogs fighting were Pit Bulls. I don't understand why in that video nobody had a break stick handy at a Pit Bull function but it is what it is.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Having had 2 extremely serious bitch fights, I tried all the water, legs up collar grabbing ideas.....mine were having none of it....the first fight they just plain exhausted themselves.. and at that point I could grab one and verbally direct the other one to their crate in the truck. The second one was a revenge battle nearly a year later with the female who had been attacked coming out of a truck window to grab the dog I was just getting out to track. I keep a blanket on the seat for the dogs and wrapped it around the heads after trying all the other ideas - wheelbarrow, tail pulling, grabbing collars (got a finger nearly dislocated in a fur saver). I wrapped that blanket as tightly as I could around both heads and gasping for breath, one finally let go.....again, STRONG verbal direction to the vehicle/crate while hanging on to the one who still had a collar on (don't know what happened to the other collar - never did find it!) Both dogs required surgery to stitch up various wounds, including serious bites splitting their eyebrows.....

About 6 months later, the older retired female (who was super social with all other dogs and had lived amicably with 3 other females) went to live at a good friends house, and the other one was never been allowed access to any female older than a puppy. She is fine with males and appears neutral to other dogs...but I won't take that chance.....her daughters and granddaughters have all been dog neutral to social and I specifically look to retain that quality.


Lee


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

I have found a metal shovel to work on attacking bull mastiffs and rottweillers.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Airhorns work well. 
So does the hose.
As a child I watched someone trying to seperate his two GSDs. Both dogs redirected onto him. It was brutal.
I don't ever reach for collars. I got bitten badly that way by Bud.
A strong verbal correction will sometimes work. Usually I us the tail and pull the aggressor back.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

What exactly is flanking?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

People ask me how to break up a dog fight and I usually tell them breaking up a dog fight is a lot like trying to pull a quarter out of a blender without turning it off. If you choose to get involved whatever you do do it quick and don't expect to come out of it without blood.

I've broken up very few fights and usually it's always been quick because said dogs already had a strong conditioned reaction to the word "no" especially when bellowed in that I am coming to kill you tone (I usually no and correct in a very neutral matter of fact way) . That plus me swooping in to crack heads is usually enough to send all but the most serious contenders running for opposite sides of the yard. My aim is usually not to physically separate but to send both dogs into an "oh ****" mindset. I want to send both into freeze or flight and then separate in that ensuing gap where both fighters are not on offense anymore they are just trying to protect themselves from me. They are usually very very reluctant to ever try to resort to fighting after they experience my reaction to it. Their first fight when I'm around is almost always their last. It is not fun for either dog involved. I had that convo one time with a very popular trainer that will not be named and his method is basically the same as mine. Go in swinging not trying to pull them apart, send em both running.

That won't work on dedicated fighters (usually). If you have a dedicated fighter you need to be very very careful about fight prevention. In fact the whole question of how to break up a dog fight is silly. The first question that should always be asked is how do I prevent it? Prevention is a billion times more effective than breaking it up. It is safer for everyone involved.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> What exactly is flanking?


Its where you grab them, hard, in that soft spot just in front of their hip. No offense, but its the last thing I'd ever think about doing. Its like asking them to bite you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Its where you grab them, hard, in that soft spot just in front of their hip. No offense, but its the last thing I'd ever think about doing. Its like asking them to bite you.


If I went there it would be a hard open hand slap not a grab. You need to be thinking get your hands out fast.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks, never tried flanking, but it sure does seem like trigger for a bite, even when a dog is not involved in a fight. It's almost a reflex trigger point on a dog. But I guess it could possibly make a dog release another dog, you'd just have to get your hand out of there real fast.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Anytime you make physical contact with a fighting dog you need to be thinking get your hand out really fast. It's why the quarter blender analogy is so on point. I've never actually taken a bite breaking up a dog fight knock on wood, but it's bound to happen sooner or later. I very rarely have to do it. I'm watching to break it up before it happens. It's best to stop it at precursor behavior.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Basically I'll break it down for you. In group dog play the following behaviors are not ok to allow.

Humping
Obsessively following a dog around the yard
Teeing up at the shoulders (dog puts its head firmly on another dogs neck or shoulders)
Long dwelling stiff face to face interactions unless you see play bows fairly quickly 
Lip curling
Resource guarding behaviors
Play flighting intensity that starts to get too intense and involves a lot of teeth display.
A dog that does not respect when another dog is showing clear signs of not wanting to play anymore
Any situation where a nervous dog is getting double teamed or chased by more than one dog in play.
Dogs that force dogs to the ground (it isn't happening voluntarily)
Dogs shouldn't be allowed to shelter under things corners or people's legs while another dog approaches.
Don't allow dogs to use body position to box dogs out from people's attention.

This isn't an exhaustive list but you get the idea.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> Thanks, never tried flanking, but it sure does seem like trigger for a bite, even when a dog is not involved in a fight. It's almost a reflex trigger point on a dog. But I guess it could possibly make a dog release another dog, you'd just have to get your hand out of there real fast.


And you've put your face right in the target zone. Its not something I'm going to do.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Anytime you make physical contact with a fighting dog you need to be thinking get your hand out really fast. It's why the quarter blender analogy is so on point. I've never actually taken a bite breaking up a dog fight knock on wood, but it's bound to happen sooner or later. I very rarely have to do it. I'm watching to break it up before it happens. It's best to stop it at precursor behavior.


This may be a tangent, but what do you do if the other dog is not known to you and the other owner is completely ineffective? I wouldn't be comfortable actually getting in and grabbing someone else's dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Good point, Steve. Not a good maneuver in a fight.

To be clear, I am not advocate for flanking. I've heard of it, and am aware that is a sensitive part of the dog, but wasn't real clear on what the poster on this thread meant about flanking. 

No, I follow Bailiff's and other "dog people's" advices on avoiding-preventing-stopping fights. It's about stopping it before it happens, and if it happens, coming in with enough force to make the dogs not want to try that again. Worked for me and mine, with three intact bitches. No fights.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Muskeg said:


> Thanks, never tried flanking, but it sure does seem like trigger for a bite, even when a dog is not involved in a fight. It's almost a reflex trigger point on a dog. But I guess it could possibly make a dog release another dog, you'd just have to get your hand out of there real fast.


It is, you will get bit. The most recent time I did it, someone already had the aggressors collar and head. But it was the only way. 

I am lucky that in the very few fights I have had, a stern voice stops it(not a bad fight), or the one time I reached in and did get bit. 

To be fair to me, it was like midnight, I had had people over earlier and had been drinking. So not thinking clearly, but they literally had me pushed into a literal corner. My fogged brain did not react great. 

I absolutely agree with Bailiff that stopping anything before it starts is the best way to go, and I allow none of those behaviors in my house. It's been 7-8 years since I have had a fight between my dogs.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I would do my best to not put myself in that situation. I don't allow strange dog meetings on walks. My dogs do not meet strange dogs on walks PERIOD. If I am out walking my dog and an unleashed dog comes over I will head that dog off myself and avoid the dogs meeting. If hes friendly and my dog isn't I'll grab my dog and be very rude about asking the owner to remove their dog. If my dog is friendly and theirs isn't I will do whatever it takes to defend my dog. If my dog isn't friendly and theirs isn't friendly I'll do whatever it takes to make sure a fight doesn't happen but my focus will be to physically stop their dog. IF its their dog on the leash and yours is off and ran up and something started you should feel like an ass, because you are being an ass. Be responsible.

There are a few reasons to avoid this. 1. You don't want to create the expectation in your dog of needing to or wanting to go up to strange dogs to meet. That expectation is a pain in the butt enough on it's own. 2. you avoid dog fights like crazy.

If it's you and a friend and you're putting two dogs together for the first time you need to agree to a set of ground rules and consequences for keeping the peace. There's a fairly high chance to keep the peace someones gonna have to step in. If this can't be done I just wouldn't put them together. If someone comes over and brings their dog that doesn't mean mine need to meet that dog. I generally won't bother unless they're going to get to know each other fairly well and be together often.

The dogs in my board and train classes are put together for a few reasons.

1. It is practical. Having to do a separate let out for 10-20 dogs would be prohibitively time consuming.
2. They are going to be together for 2-6 weeks. Safety wise its good they are able to meet and get along.
3. It is a good experience for leash reactive dogs or dogs with a history of fighting other dogs to be in an environment where they can't get away with their usual BS and learn that they can coexist with a group of dogs and feel comfortable about it. They also learn fighting or attempting to start a fight will end very badly for them and they need to drop the behavior from their repertoire. It can inoculate them against fighting but it doesn't mean it wont ever happen again.
4. They get to play and blow off steam.
5. It cuts down massively on the dog on dog danger when classes for the people start and the owners show up and are learning how to handle the dog with other dogs around. 
6. I can learn a lot about how the dog behaves with their people while watching how they interact with the other dogs.
7. Many of those dogs end up in the yards for the board and daycare side of the business and it is best I get to know them and teach them how to get along with other dogs before they end up on that side and someone less experienced has to deal with them.

There is reason to risk it and make it happen. If there was no reason to risk it, and nothing to be gained then why take that risk? If the dog was too much of a fight risk to be worth taking the risk they get made a loner. Most dogs are not loners unless they will fight people too. If you have a dog that will fight people that put pressure on them you don't want to put that dog out with other dogs because you can't control them without risking a fight between yourself and the dog too. It is just best to avoid entirely unless you have specific reason not to.

My own personal dogs do not usually go out with the training groups normally. They are socialized and all that mess is over with so why should I take the risk with them?

What people need to realize is it is perfectly natural for strange dogs to fight. That is the nature of the animal. Packs in the wild are family groups not random conglomerations of random animals. There is a genetic advantage to driving strange dogs/wolves off. Now with that in mind stop putting them together like they are human kids that need to have friends.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> This may be a tangent, but what do you do if thge other dog is not known to you and the other owner is completely ineffective? I wouldn't be comfortable actually getting in and grabbing someone else's dog.


I'll bet you'd be shouting orders at the other owner at the very least


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> To be fair to me, it was like midnight, I had had people over earlier and had been drinking. So not thinking clearly, but they literally had me pushed into a literal corner. My fogged brain did not react great.


6 or 4 Long Island Ice Teas, then reach right in there and start grabbin. There's a combination, Lol.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

My only did this one time solution sounds strange, but I once had a dog, from who knows where, show up and attack mine in my yard. Nothing seemed to work, not even a hose. I ran in the house and grabbed a box of pepper. Looking back, if anyone had seen me it was probably quite 'amusing' as I was dancing around trying to get the pepper to the other dog's nose or face, but once I did, the fighting stopped pretty darn quick. I hated doing it, but was frantic by that time.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think the dog fight between the Rott and my older golden when he was a pup was the most dangerous fight I broke up, in the sense that I did not know the Rott. We were in the middle of nowhere, there was nothing to grab. His owner was crying. I got down on the ground and held his jaws so that he couldn't crush my pups head. Meanwhile another person grabbed his back legs, the result was the Rott, my pup and myself were in the air because the Rott would not let go. That Rott and I were face to face, hd could have easily redirected and mauled me, but he didn't. That fight lasted about 10 minutes. I was sore got quite awhile after that, but he didn't crush my dogs head. The guy I was with at one point threatened to stab the dog(which made his owner cry more). I remember screaming do not stab the dog. But I certainly did not think it would take as long as it did for the dog to release.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The first bitch fight, I grabbed the collars on both bitches and managed to get them apart. 65# and 75# trying to eat each other. So I have two Tasmanian devils and my arms are breaking. Finally, I was able to make my brother's dog, who lived with me, to SIT, and managed to drag mine out of that kennel. 

The next one was between these two and my leg got in the way, and I was able to get the one through the door and the other in. But it took my leg a year to heal from that mess. 

I had just gotten my two boys, apart, one on the one side of the kennel and the other on the other when I heard WWIII happen in the house/porch. Rush went through the doggy door and joined in. I got out of the kennel leaving Dubya safe in there. Went into the house and took all the youngsters who weren't serious and threw them in crates, and then I had just Arwen and Jenna. I managed to get an aluminum baby gate between them, and there was only minor blood on one of the girls. 

Rush jumped Arwen at the fair grounds. No fences, no gates. I went to grab the collar, and got nailed good in my hand. I took my bloody stump and went to get my Explorer and I just fired it up and aimed it at the dogs. I drove up to them, and they broke apart and looked at me. Arwen went under the SUV and with super-human speed I opened the back and got Rushie crated. Then I got Arwen crated. I took them to Dads and we checked them over. Then I took them home and kenneled them before taking my bloody stump to the ER. That was 10 years ago and there is still a 1 inch scar on my hand. That was the last injury I had breaking up critters. 

I came home to find Jenna AND Joy waiting for me one day, and that would've been ok, but then I spoke to them and Joy came up and Jenna went for her. I grabbed a chair and got it stopped before it really got going. I managed to get Joy in her kennel and secure the gate. 

Another day Jenna had puppies and I was moving them. I had Ninja crated so I could clean her kennel and move the puppies into there, and Ninja broke the crate open and attacked Jenna. Jenna grabbed her by the muzzle and took her to the ground. I grabbed Ninja by the tail and dragged her into a kennel and got the gate between, but had the dickens of a time disengaging the muzzles. 

And Jenna was recovering once, and I was taking Heidi through to take her outside, and she charged at Jenna. I grabbed Heidi's tail and dragged her away before Jenna fully engaged. 

It's been pretty quiet at my place the last few years. Ninja will try to eat anyone, so she is kenneled alone and I am pretty careful to make sure her kennel is secure before opening another. The rest of my current dogs are less likely to fight. I had Babs and Hepzibah in together for about a year. Then Babsy was limping and had a pretty good wound on her leg. But when they had greeted me it was like nothing happened. I then separated them. I wonder if Babs got stuck on the doggy door or something else, and it wasn't a bite. It seems like once bitches fight, they don't usually back down. 

Hepsi(4.5) has been in with CujoII (3.5) since then with no problems. Jenna has always been good with her puppies. She is currently in with Nikki and Nina (both 2.5) with no problems. Odessa (9) is in with Oscar (2) -- most boy/girl works. Mufasa can be in with anyone, but since he is half-brother to most, I am pretty careful who I put him in with when I do. With all that coat he is better in the house, so he is on his own now. Babsy (11) is in with Quinn (1) and that is going good, though they are both females. Ninja has to be kenneled alone, and Heidi. A few might be ok with each other. I tried Heidi with Quinnie one day, but Heidi wanted to eat her, so I decided that wouldn't work. Quinnie is fine with Jenna, Nikki, and Nina, and she is good with Cujo and Hepzibah. She is also fine with Joy. 

The problem is, that if they do start to fight, then you have two animals that you absolutely love trying to do serious damage to one another. And you have to go in there, using whatever force necessary to stop it. And if you are on your own. that could mean going away from the fight to obtain a leash so you can tie one dog off while you then drag the other away, the whole time, making a lot of noise and your heart racing. You do kind of get a feel for what would be really stupid. Like, I had Quinnie and Babsy in my room last night, and Babsy jumped off the bed and lay down in her bed next to mine. Quinnie was playing with her toys on my bed, but nearly fell off on top of Babs -- that would not have gone over well. Later, she came up near Babs to get on the bed, and I heard something, and thought, time to put Quinnie away, before I have a bitch who used be great around other dogs. 

At some point Nikki and Nina might fight and they may never fight. If they do, their kennel is split in half, I just took the gate off. I can put that back on, put Moofie in with one of the gals, and take Jenna out of there. Or I can separate Babs and Quinn's area, and put Jenna there. Right now though, they have a much larger area that is a lot more comfortable. And as long as the girls' temperaments continue to complement each other, it isn't an issue. When Jenna dies, that could change the dynamics though. 

Right now all is quiet and I can let many run together and play. I just stop before there are any issues. None of them wear collars because that can be dangerous when playing together, so grabbing collars isn't really an option.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Personally, I'd rather break up a dog fight than a bitch fight any day. I had two sisters who hated one another. If they were within sight, they were trying to get at each other. I finally placed one on a co-ownership with a friend. But thank God back then it was usually any order the majority of the time to go in the show ring. We'd have to count how many in their classes and then place them as far apart as we could. Both were trained to focus on us and they did, but being too close would have been trouble in the making.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

1) Like many have said, don't let it happen in the first place.

2) If they are known dogs to you, go in swinging and shut the whole thing down.

3) If it's a real fight, as in one dog wants to kill the other, and the first 2 haven't worked, back tie the loser around the waist, pull the winner back by the legs until the back tie on the first dog is very tight, and then hang the winner until they let go.

Pro tip: if you are going to flank a dog, which sometimes works, use the loop end of the leash and not your hand.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Basically I'll break it down for you. In group dog play the following behaviors are not ok to allow.
> 
> Dogs shouldn't be allowed to shelter under things corners or people's legs while another dog approaches.


Please explain.



Baillif said:


> What people need to realize is it is perfectly natural for strange dogs to fight. That is the nature of the animal. Packs in the wild are family groups not random conglomerations of random animals. There is a genetic advantage to driving strange dogs/wolves off. Now with that in mind stop putting them together like they are human kids that need to have friends.


This doesn't make sense.

First of all, I don't think this is necessarily accurate for today's society. Today, people take their dogs to many different places where a dog's "territory" does not come into play. It is all neutral. That should remove that cause.

A dog that fights needlessly over neutral territory is setting itself up for injury and infection which is not conducive to survival and living to fight another day. 

Also, if it is their territory, the goal is to drive the other dog off if possible, fighting as a last resort. Once again, it is conducive to self preservation.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I haave been lucky ... my female who will pick a fight can be easily stopped by me, I have grabbed her scruff wnd hauled her off a few times and she has never bit me.

My old male wouldn't start crap with anyone, and he was responsible for the peace between him and her, but one time when he was on prednisone he decided he had had enough of her and when she tried to mug him to steal his toy he opened up a can of whup ass on her. I couldn't blame him. I broke it up and one of them did bite my hand but it was dead of winter and I had on heavy winter gloves which had quite the set of puncture holes in them....talk about a lucky break, summer and I might have gone to the er. The good news: she needed it and she never messed with him again. I actually wish he would have put her in her place years ago.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Please explain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is what we call a "bad picture" when a dog is sheltered somehow and is approached by another dog. It could be a dog in a crate or a corner. It could also be a dog between its owners legs being approached by another dog. It could be under a table. It could be while approached from the front coming through a doorway hallway or bottleneck. Basically any picture where a dog is under something in something or is limited in its perceived options for retreat is a bad picture that can easily trigger a fight.

A dog doesn't just fight over territory. It will fight because the owner is present (pack). It will fight because it encounters bad pictures. It will fight out of preemptiion to protect self. There are a ton of reasons a dog will fight on neutral ground that are not territory related. The example I gave of protecting territory was not an all inclusive list of reasons for fighting. One must also remember a dog is not a logical being. It feels threatened or it feels the need to fight. It does not consider injury or long term self preservation. Those are calculations the dog isn't capable of making.

A dog will fight over a stick or a pinecone even if they are all over the place. It doesn't make sense from our perspective from a logical standpoint but they are not logical.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Also worth mentioning that 1. dogs are not wolves some fight now because they have it bred into them. 2. A lot of fights happen and continue because leaving is not an option. The fights occur in rooms, yards, on leash, and other enclosed spaces that do not allow for retreat.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Baillif said:


> ... 2. A lot of fights happen and continue because leaving is not an option. The fights occur in rooms, yards, on leash, and other enclosed spaces that do not allow for retreat.


I actually explain this to people a lot. In a fight or flight scenario(true or just perceived) a dog that would normally walk/run/skeedaddle away CANT because the are on leash, or in a crate, or a corner on their dog bed, We have taken the ability to "flight" away, so instinctually the only thing they have left is "fight". 

I have seen plenty of dogs that are "leash aggressive/kennel brave" that are totally different off leash or out of the kennel.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Steve Strom said:


> gsdsar said:
> 
> 
> > To be fair to me, it was like midnight, I had had people over earlier and had been drinking. So not thinking clearly, but they literally had me pushed into a literal corner. My fogged brain did not react great.
> ...


Not one of my finer moments to be sure LOL. What really sucked was calling a sober friend to drive me to the ER. Aaaaaaand, then trying to ski the next day. Ah youth.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> I actually explain this to people a lot. In a fight or flight scenario(true or just perceived) a dog that would normally walk/run/skeedaddle away CANT because the are on leash, or in a crate, or a corner on their dog bed, We have taken the ability to "flight" away, so instinctually the only thing they have left is "fight".
> 
> I have seen plenty of dogs that are "leash aggressive/kennel brave" that are totally different off leash or out of the kennel.


Happens in all sorts of animals too. Fish is one example that comes to mind. Siamese fighting fish only fight in bowls and small tanks. Once you add space the fighting is super rare. Cichlids especially experience huge falloff in aggressive behavior the larger the tank is. Dog fights are a lot more rare for street dogs than they are for owned animals.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> It is what we call a "bad picture" when a dog is sheltered somehow and is approached by another dog. It could be a dog in a crate or a corner. It could also be a dog between its owners legs being approached by another dog. It could be under a table. It could be while approached from the front coming through a doorway hallway or bottleneck. Basically any picture where a dog is under something in something or is limited in its perceived options for retreat is a bad picture that can easily trigger a fight.
> 
> Okay, I took that as you meant it was a trigger for another dog to attack the sheltered dog.
> 
> ...


A dog feels a need to fight? Explain please.

I understand that a dog does not consciously consider injury or self preservation, but self preservation is an inherent instinct among most animals. If they did not possess a sense of self preservation, most species would eradicate themselves from the face of the earth.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you were here I could show you. I do it sometimes to clients during the go homes. They are standing there and I tell them don't move. I square up on them from about 10 feet away and I walk all the way up to them giving direct eye contact the entire time. I rarely get closer than 4 feet before they know what I'm talking about. Set up a similar situation and you will feel it too even though logically you know you aren't in danger you will feel it.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Prevention for sure, but every now and then they surprise you. Our older male destroys plastic and wire crates, but has done fine being put up in our spare room. 

The other morning he managed to get the door open and as soon as our younger male saw him it was on. My wife (home alone) got a hold of the aggressor (the younger one) and tried yelling for the other to back off. Our two females came flying into the middle of it and both boys stopped. My wife threw the younger one outside and the girls had the escapee backed into our dinning room, they never touched him though, he just sat there.

I just picked up some steel I had formed and I'm constructing his new jumbo crate, I'm hoping to have it done this weekend. It will be about 100lbs when complete, but it will break down into more managable parts and hopefully be escape proof, lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I use the kennels they sell at Tractor Supply. Not the box kennels, but the ones that are panels. 6'x5' panels. You can use them inside or outside. A 5'x5' kennel would serve as a crate. So far none of my dogs have broken these, and they have broken many crates over the years.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

selzer said:


> I use the kennels they sell at Tractor Supply. Not the box kennels, but the ones that are panels. 6'x5' panels. You can use them inside or outside. A 5'x5' kennel would serve as a crate. So far none of my dogs have broken these, and they have broken many crates over the years.


He probably wouldn't break out, but I'm not so sure he wouldn't damage his teeth trying. When the boys first started with their feud we tried using plywood as a gate thinking it would be more secure. When I came home he was waiting for me at the front door, he had chewed a "mouse" hole through it. He ended up with several splinters stuck in his mouth, but he did let me pull them out without issue, he's a very determined fellow.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses, just went back re-read the comments and there is a lot of good information. I see some things in our younger males behavoir that may be him "sheltering" or hiding, and this can help with prevention. 

We are working to avoid further fights. I never saw it as a problem, but I've approach fights calmly and quiet for the most part, I can see making noise and going in swinging could more effective and something I hadn't thought of.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Nigel said:


> Thanks for all the responses, just went back re-read the comments and there is a lot of good information. I see some things in our younger males behavoir that may be him "sheltering" or hiding, and this can help with prevention.
> 
> We are working to avoid further fights. I never saw it as a problem, but I've approach fights calmly and quiet for the most part, I can see making noise and going in swinging could more effective and something I hadn't thought of.


So what are you doing when you say work at it? I still have not put my two male GSDs together since the last fight, I won't do that until I have someone here with me. I have put the female with both of them but seperately without issue. I have a basket muzzle that I might use at first. I will say that I rotate them in the crate and Apollo has been much better even in this situation then he was in the past. He is no longer rushing the crate which is a good thing. So right now we are still stuck on avoiding a situation by keeping them seperate.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

llombardo said:


> So what are you doing when you say work at it? I still have not put my two male GSDs together since the last fight, I won't do that until I have someone here with me. I have put the female with both of them but seperately without issue. I have a basket muzzle that I might use at first. I will say that I rotate them in the crate and Apollo has been much better even in this situation then he was in the past. He is no longer rushing the crate which is a good thing. So right now we are still stuck on avoiding a situation by keeping them seperate.


Right now it's making secure containment for our older male, all this shuffling has him looking to escape. He was kept in our bedroom while we are at work and he never had a problem with it for the 5-6 hours, 4 days a week he was in there. Something about being in a different location has him looking for a way out. Him getting the door open leading to the recent fight was a new thing.

We are hoping to have them at least tolerate each other at some point, though we understand that may not be possible. We considered training them using muzzles too, but haven't researched into wether or not this would be worth pursuing.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Llambardo- two male GSDs fighting is not something I'd "work on". If you can, bring in a qualified trainer, and they can help you. It's way too risky to deal with that kind of thing over the internet. 

I've been successful stopping bitch fights, but from my experience, the girls are much less dangerous and serious than the boys. Females of a species should be able to live together, biologically, while males, they are expendable. Thus, fights are more serious. Also, the girls are physically smaller, and generally easier to control. 

Coyote packs are mostly females working together to raise pups. 

My suggestion is to get a good, qualified trainer on board. And even then, it's a tricky deal to have two male GSDs with a fight history. Or, if possible, rehome one of the males.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It's always interesting hearing people talk about male vs female fights and how one seems worse or more frequent than the other. I have see a whole crap ton of dogs and I can't say I've noticed a huge difference between the two as far as male vs female fight frequency or intensity.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm sure it depends on the individual dogs. I've only had limited experience with my own dogs. And, to be self-scrutinizing- maybe I feel more assertive and confident dealing with the girls.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I'm sure it depends on the individual dogs. I've only had limited experience with my own dogs. And, to be self-scrutinizing- maybe I feel more assertive and confident dealing with the girls.


Interesting. I noticed the opposite, sort of. 
The boys may fight with more noise but I could usually break them up with a loud HEY!
The girls fought with a single minded intensity and determination to stop each other from drawing another breath.:smile2:

I guess the only saving grace is that I am almost sure none of the girls ever redirected to me, a couple of the boys did when I grabbed them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If the younger one is the aggressor Nigel, instead of containing the older one and altering his whole way of life, I'd focus on the younger one. All the control and boundaries would be put on him. He's the one who I think needs the "You aren't going to do that obedience"


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'd focus on everybody. If I know a dog gets weird about attacking when it feels cornered or when it's sheltering under people I will initially correct the dog as soon as there is a precursor in that picture first but then start to correct the dog that is entering the picture when the other dog is in that situation. They need to learn to respect a weird dogs space as well as the weird dog needing to know violence isn't a good option. 

So for example I know if I have a dog that lashes out as I'm with him and another dog approaches or even if he moves to box the other dog out I'll correct him for that. But after a while I'll start to correct the dog who is trying to move in to get attention when I'm with another dog. Ofc if none of them have an issue I don't bother with that kind of thing at all. But I'll correct and teach them to avoid bad pictures with my own consequences so that the dogs don't do it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It creates a socially savvy dog over time. A dog that knows how to avoid a dog guarding a bone or a dog that is weirded out and unconfident will keep its nose out of a lot of confrontations.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Baillif said:


> I'd focus on everybody. If I know a dog gets weird about attacking when it feels cornered or when it's sheltering under people I will initially correct the dog as soon as there is a precursor in that picture first but then start to correct the dog that is entering the picture when the other dog is in that situation. They need to learn to respect a weird dogs space as well as the weird dog needing to know violence isn't a good option.
> 
> So for example I know if I have a dog that lashes out as I'm with him and another dog approaches or even if he moves to box the other dog out I'll correct him for that. But after a while I'll start to correct the dog who is trying to move in to get attention when I'm with another dog. Ofc if none of them have an issue I don't bother with that kind of thing at all. But I'll correct and teach them to avoid bad pictures with my own consequences so that the dogs don't do it.


I can see how this would work I our situation. The younger does have confidence issues and he'll sometime pace back and forth. You've mentioned a number of things in this thread that are spot on in regards to him.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah people just need to have common sense and establish a good framework language of agreement and disagreement with the actions a dog takes. Actually doing this in a clear way is the hard part and is really what I get paid to do. It is silly how it never dawns on people. If I decided to feed two dogs near each other and one finishes first and moves in to try to take the other dogs food while he is eating I will step in and correct that dog for trying it. I never let them do that kind of crap because I know where it could lead. I do not let dogs correct each other. I will correct them for trying to do that, but I will correct dogs that push another dog into a situation where they would feel the need to correct a dog to defend themselves or their resources as well. The peace is kept as a direct result of that. It is similar to the role police and courts would play in a society. Keep the peace, maintain order, settle disputes.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> Llambardo- two male GSDs fighting is not something I'd "work on". If you can, bring in a qualified trainer, and they can help you. It's way too risky to deal with that kind of thing over the internet.
> 
> I've been successful stopping bitch fights, but from my experience, the girls are much less dangerous and serious than the boys. Females of a species should be able to live together, biologically, while males, they are expendable. Thus, fights are more serious. Also, the girls are physically smaller, and generally easier to control.
> 
> ...



The two male GSDs have only got into one fight and it started because of Robyn. She was laying down while recovering from her surgery and Midnite the goofball kinda tripped over her and she warned him to back away(she was strictly protecting herself) Apollo took that as go time and went for Midnite. Midnite ended the fight by putting both his paws on Apollo and standing on him, so I could grab him. Robyn is the one to watch, she can do way more damage then both boys together. She isn't a fighter where she jumps dogs, but she will finish a fight. Apollo does not cross her and they get along really good. 

When I first noticed there was some resource guarding going on we did see a trainer, one that deals strictly with GSDs. They gave me some ideas but other then that it was useless. I did use the ideas successfully for the resource guarding.

There have been like 4 fights in 3 years with no injuries to any of the dogs. They were just loud, very loud. The first three were caused by Batman. Batman is good for starting trouble then he takes off and the dogs that he caused to fight really have no clue why they are fighting. Batman used to drive Robyn nuts, now they are ok with each other and actually play. I have great voice control over Robyn which helps. 

So right now the problem is me, I just don't want to break up a fight. I would rather make sure one doesn't happen. 

For the most part they all get along, so I don't want anyone thinking that we are having major difficulties here. I'm very proactive so even one fight bothers me--I want perfection, but I aldo know that with 7 dogs with strong personalities there will be tiffs.

In our case the males are not as serious as the females, not even close. The females having gotten into it once(one of the fights caused by Batman) and was worse then the two males, but still no injuries--thankfully.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Even though boys are bigger, I have never had boys fight for keeps. I've had girls try to kill each other. So yeah, I've seen the opposite. Also, boys figure out who is tougher and it is done. Bitches are sneaky and patient. They will wait and watch, and when you let your guard down or are distracted, then it is ON, even months later, probably years later.


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