# Bill C-615 to Ban Electric Shock Collars in Canada



## Bob_McBob

This video has been making the rounds on Facebook locally with all the positive-only trainers cheering it on. NDP MP Kennedy Stewart recently introduced a private member's bill to ban all use of ecollars for "companion animals" in Canada. The full text of the bill can be found here.

The preamble clauses lay out the "arguments" against ecollars:



> The use of electric shock collars on companion animals serves to negatively impact their physical, social and psychological well-being and quality of life
> 
> Scientific research has demonstrated that the use of electric shock collars on companion animals causes an increase in their levels of fear, anxiety, stress and aggression
> 
> The use of electric shock collars, having been recognized as an inhumane practice, has been banned or restricted in numerous countries
> 
> There are alternative methods for effectively training companion animals without inflicting needless pain and suffering
> 
> Canadians are committed to protecting animal welfare and preventing cruelty against animals in all forms


It's pretty clear the vast majority of people commenting on Youtube and Facebook have never seen, felt, or used any kind of ecollar, let alone a modern precisely adjustable model, nor have they read anything about modern low stimulation training methods. I can understand if a member of the public hears "shock collar" and thinks it sounds barbaric, but the number of dog training professionals and business owners making completely uniformed comments is appalling.

It's very unlikely this particular bill will be voted on or passed into law, but we've already seen prong collars and ecollars banned in Quebec this year, and it's not like many MPs are going to stand up and argue for the use of "shock collars" on dogs. It seems like the whole country may be heading the same way as Quebec at some point in the near future.


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## my boy diesel

the way some folks use them yes they are cruel and inhumane


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## simba405

Honestly if Ecollars are banned I don't think it's a big deal. They make training easier but you can most certainly have a well trained dog without using one.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Doubt the conservatives will pass it. Also, talking to people in the know the rules in Quebec are nebulous enough that they can be used there too.


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## lalachka

It's not about ecollars. If they ban ecollars then next they will ban the prongs (as it's already supposedly done somewhere). Then next whatever else. 

Positive training is good, I'm all for it. But at some point most dogs need corrections. What will be left to correct them with?


Tools shouldn't be banned, improper use should be. No one is banning hammers but I can kill someone with it


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## lalachka

Actually, if ecollars are banned in today's society with the 'I want it now' mentality (talking about myself here too) then dogs won't win. Yesterday I read about throw chains, 'the poor man's Ecollar'. I'd prefer people use ecollars even if they use them wrong. I can only imagine the stuff that will get invented if the ecollars get banned. 


Then again, how can yu regulate the proper use? What if someone buys an Ecollar and just shocks the dog for everything (as many people do)?

I don't know about this one, it's a tough call


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## selzer

I am always against more laws. If someone is abusing their dog, they should be charged with animal cruelty, which is against the law. One would have to be able to prove it though. So unless there is burn marks, it would be hard to do.

Here anyway, we have bigger fish to fry. Terrible injuries are done by collars. Maybe they should ban them. Inbedded collars are the worst. 
And yet, I have never heard anything like: Joe EvilPuke was given 3 years for animal cruelty when his dog was brought in with an embedded collar that was infested with maggots. 

Nope. There is no statement on the rules and regs when you get your dog license: "Check your puppies collar every couple of weeks to make sure it isn't cutting into its skin." There are no posters out there that say, "If you dump your puppy with a collar on, and it gets embedded, you will go to prison." 

Ok, I will step off my soap box now. 

TLDR: I don't like e-collars, but I don't want them banned.


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## misslesleedavis1

This is what happens when people with no clue have all the say. Next i will have to book therapy sessions for my dog if he does not sit the first time, maybe take him out to dinner and a movie to get him to heal?
bullcrap.


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## lauren43

lalachka said:


> It's not about ecollars. If they ban ecollars then next they will ban the prongs (as it's already supposedly done somewhere). Then next whatever else.
> 
> Positive training is good, I'm all for it. But at some point most dogs need corrections. What will be left to correct them with?
> 
> 
> Tools shouldn't be banned, improper use should be. No one is banning hammers but I can kill someone with it
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Using these tools as forms of correction, is improper use, no?

Honestly I don't care either way. I'm not a huge fan of them myself. And the more laws they make the more they are controlling what we can and can not do with our own pets. Next thing you know, spay and neuter laws will go into effect (if they haven't already)...I just wish idiots would stop getting animals (byb's and animal abusers and the like)...


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## lalachka

lauren43 said:


> Using these tools as forms of correction, is improper use, no?
> 
> Honestly I don't care either way. I'm not a huge fan of them myself. And the more laws they make the more they are controlling what we can and can not do with our own pets. Next thing you know, spay and neuter laws will go into effect (if they haven't already)...I just wish idiots would stop getting animals (byb's and animal abusers and the like)...


a prong? no, i don't think so. a prong should be used for corrections, at least that's how i was taught.

ecollars - there are different ways of using them and yes, they can be used for corrections


and since you brough up spay and neuter laws. i hope that never happens. i don't believe in neutering out of convenience and i don't want anyone telling me what to do with my dog.


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## lalachka

misslesleedavis1 said:


> This is what happens when people with no clue have all the say. Next i will have to book therapy sessions for my dog if he does not sit the first time, maybe take him out to dinner and a movie to get him to heal?
> bullcrap.


))))))) i sooo see this happening. dogs are already on prozac. therapy seems like a natural progression. or no, therapy shouild've came first and then prozac?

omg


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## misslesleedavis1

lalachka said:


> ))))))) i sooo see this happening. dogs are already on prozac. therapy seems like a natural progression. or no, therapy shouild've came first and then prozac?
> 
> omg



It is, frankly i am quitting my job and opening up a "dog talk shop" in my basement, strike while i iron is hot? i will have massage therapy, reiki and slow classic music playing for them in the backgound as we hold hands to paws and talk about problems.


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## ZoeD1217

misslesleedavis1 said:


> It is, frankly i am quitting my job and opening up a "dog talk shop" in my basement, strike while i iron is hot? i will have massage therapy, reiki and slow classic music playing for them in the backgound as we hold hands to paws and talk about problems.


Zoe and I will be there. We need help opening up the lines of communication  

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## Bob_McBob

The most bizarre thing about the Quebec legislation is that the MAPAQ guidelines specifically identify prong collars and e-collars as unacceptable because they cause "pain and injury" to the dog, while later stating that metal or nylon choke collars are completely acceptable for walking or training. Somehow they interpret the statute in such a way they came to this conclusion.



> Article 26 : Le collier de l’animal *ne doit pas gêner sa respiration* ni lui occasionner de la douleur ou des blessures.
> 
> The animal's collar *must not interfere with breathing* or cause them pain or injury.


Good thing no dog has ever been injured by a flat collar 

The fact that citronella collars are also deemed acceptable is an affront to logic. How could you possibly make a correction any less clear to a dog?

I didn't realise how many local dog training business are vehemently positive-only until this video started cropping up on Facebook.


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## glowingtoadfly

Hey, Prozac can help fearful and anxious dogs live better lives ...


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## Pax8

I don't particularly like ecollars, but at the same time I don't think they should be banned. If they want to do something to head off abuse of the collars, maybe a person has to take a training class and buy it from a facility instead of a pet store. 

Usually people I see who have gone through a training class with it, while not perfect have a better understanding of it. However the ones that just walk into the store and buy a shock collar to zap the crap out of their dog could use some clear information. Especially since they don't want to learn anything about it unless they have to. 

But then I guess that's also a difficult thing to enforce. I dunno, it's a prickly issue all around. 

I don't think they should be banned though, as much as I dislike them. It may not be my training style, but people should be allowed their choice. And if they abuse it, then there are laws in place for that. Maybe just stricter, better enforced rules about abuse? More funding to the officers who have to handle these abuse cases?


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## Bob_McBob

It should probably be noted that like I said in the OP, it's extremely unlikely this bill will even be discussed, let alone voted on or passed. Private member's bills with any substantial content are rarely actually voted on, and the timing is carefully planned to coincide with the summer recess of parliament next month. It's mostly a publicity stunt for the MP who introduced it.


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## Broncs

If these collars are used right they can be very beneficial! My roommate has one on her shepherd, not because he's a problem child but because she is disabled and we live on property in the middle of nowhere! She never uses the shock function only the beeping function. If she can't see him or he can't hear her she just beeps him and he comes running! My RR will come running as well if he hears the beeping of the GSD's collar.


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## jafo220

Well, it appears to be a knee jerk reaction to appease what they consider to be the masses. Not to say the excuses they offer are not plausible but it seems they always fall short of whats reasonable.

Being there will be stock available after a ban and you won't slow down internet purchases. Why not just restrict the method of purchases? Instead of being able to just go down to the pet store and buy one, make the purchase go through a qualified trainer? That way, a dog that may not need this type of tool will be spared and untrained persons possible abuse of the tool. But if a dog shows the need, at least the owner will have to go through a training course on how to use the collar. Basically your eliminating over the counter sales and forcing potential collar users to get trained on the proper usage. 

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## misslesleedavis1

Does this extend to electric fences also? I did not watch the post

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## Bob_McBob

I wouldn't have a big problem with restricting the sale of ecollars in some way or requiring certain minimum design standards. The problem isn't the responsible owners using a high quality Dogtra or Einstein collar on a low stim setting with a trainer, it's people buying a $30 Chinese ecollar from Petsmart and sticking it on their dog at maximum setting until they get infected pressure sores. Then you get another lovely owner neglect "burn" photo for the anti-ecollar web sites 

I agree with selzer that animal abuse should be punished under existing animal cruelty laws. In every news story or "case report" about the kind of neglect I mentioned, the owner is considered the innocent party and the ecollar manufacturer is vilified.

If this kind of bill were actually passed, it would have a significantly greater effect on ecollar sales and usage than what happened in Quebec. It makes using an ecollar fall under the criminal offense of "causing unnecessary suffering" which carries a penalty of up to five years in prison or 18 months and a $10,000 fine. It's equivalent in severity to things like dog fighting and baiting.



misslesleedavis1 said:


> Does this extend to electric fences also? I did not watch the post


Yes, it includes invisible fence and bark collars too.


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## selzer

Don't be too complacent. Everyone in the know of the new regulations for breeders, placing any breeder that ships even a single puppy, under the USDA, didn't believe it would get passed either. But it did. And some of the other stuff in that set of regulations also places people under USDA, like importing a puppy and selling it -- you are under the USDA because it wasn't born and raised on your premises. That isn't the point of this post though. 

People are complacent, believe that that kind of legislation will never pass, or is to knock out puppy mills, and somehow it gets through, and everyone is scratching their heads and scrambling.


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## Wolfgeist

If they ban ecollars and they ban prongs, people WILL find other tools to correct with... some of those tools may not be as safe as a prong or an ecollar. 

I already know of someone who rips the hackle fur out of his dog and twists the flesh to cause pain (correction). *Sigh*


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## Bob_McBob

selzer said:


> Don't be too complacent.


I have no doubt whatsoever that if any ruling party decided to insert this legislation into a bill, it would pass without question. It seems fairly inevitable at this point. No MP is going to stand up in the House of Commons and argue for the use of shock collars, especially against party lines. This particular bill has no chance of passing because it's a private member's bill. The same MP has already presented petitions to parliament on behalf of this anti-ecollar organization which is spearheading the fight to ban them in Canada.


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## jafo220

Bob_McBob said:


> I wouldn't have a big problem with restricting the sale of ecollars in some way or requiring certain minimum design standards. The problem isn't the responsible owners using a high quality Dogtra or Einstein collar on a low stim setting with a trainer, it's people buying a $30 Chinese ecollar from Petsmart and sticking it on their dog at maximum setting until they get infected pressure sores. Then you get another lovely owner neglect "burn" photo for the anti-ecollar web sites
> 
> I agree with selzer that animal abuse should be punished under existing animal cruelty laws. In every news story or "case report" about the kind of neglect I mentioned, the owner is considered the innocent party and the ecollar manufacturer is vilified.
> 
> If this kind of bill were actually passed, it would have a significantly greater effect on ecollar sales and usage than what happened in Quebec. It makes using an ecollar fall under the criminal offense of "causing unnecessary suffering" which carries a penalty of up to five years in prison or 18 months and a $10,000 fine. It's equivalent in severity to things like dog fighting and baiting.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it includes invisible fence and bark collars too.


I understand and agree with your point. But they like to do things the lazy way and lump everyone into the same group. Doesn't matter to them if you know what your doing or not. Doesn't matter if it's a high quality collar or not. They use what sells. And all those excuses they provided, sells and sets a misconception about e-collars and prongs. 

Instead of being lazy, they should discuss with proponents and opponents and experts and devise a useful law if they just have to have one on the books. 

What will happen with the dogs that require different methods of training? You know, the ones that wind up coming to a discussion board begging for help because they can't control or have lost control of their 100 pounds of muscle and fur? More than likely they go up on craigslist, newspaper ad's and also directly to the pound as an "aggressive" dog when that may or may not be the case.

No matter which way you go. In the end, the dog pays the price. People will still buy dogs, some breeders will still sell to people who should not have dogs and puppy millers will still do what they do. At least, the government should either pass a useful law or stay out of peoples business.


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## Syaoransbear

Ridiculous. I'm sorry but the people who want to abuse their dogs are probably going to sooner do it with the $10 prong or choke collar than the $250 ecollar. Yes they can be improperly used but so can everything. 

Personally I love my ecollar for off leash use.

Also, I'm pretty sure most of those pressure sores are from leaving the collar on too long or the dog being allergic to the metal posts, not from using too high of a setting.


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## misslesleedavis1

Sorry. I love my dog but this whole positive puppy, treat your dog like your child thing is getting way out of hand.
A lady on facebook today (training debate) was telling everyone it was abusive and cruel not to let your sleep in your bed, because they have feelings and its mean and barbaric make them sleep on a floor. You know you may be thinking "wow that woman is craaaaaazzzy" but in reality this woman and types like her are the ones making a difference and its starting to change laws.


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## simba405

The thing is people who abuse their dog with an Ecollar might not even know they are doing it. They stim the dog into obedience and think that they are doing a good job. It's not as visual as yanking really hard on a prong.


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## CelticGlory

The hunting crowd aren't going to be happy about this one!


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## Wicked Seraphim

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Sorry. I love my dog but this whole positive puppy, treat your dog like your child thing is getting way out of hand.
> A lady on facebook today (training debate) was telling everyone it was abusive and cruel not to let your sleep in your bed, because they have feelings and its mean and barbaric make them sleep on a floor. You know you may be thinking "wow that woman is craaaaaazzzy" but in reality this woman and types like her are the ones making a difference and its starting to change laws.


I love my dog, but she is not sleeping in my bed with me. I don't even let her up on the furniture at all. She has her own beds throughout the house... and I don't feel any kind of bad about it. However, we do subscribe to Dog TV for her, lol  I think she loves it, my husband is pretty sure my cheese slid off my cracker. :shocked:

But I think the squeekiest wheel always gets the grease for sure.


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## Yoshi

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Sorry. I love my dog but this whole positive puppy, treat your dog like your child thing is getting way out of hand.
> A lady on facebook today (training debate) was telling everyone it was abusive and cruel not to let your sleep in your bed, because they have feelings and its mean and barbaric make them sleep on a floor. You know you may be thinking "wow that woman is craaaaaazzzy" but in reality this woman and types like her are the ones making a difference and its starting to change laws.


That there is the problem these days.  While it is commendable to treat your dog with respect and fairness, it's just silly treating them like little children and sadly that is where many behavioral problems seem to come from nowadays. I think we stop respecting our dogs when we fail to see them for what they are -carnivorous mammals, canines, predators, animals - and instead see them for what some people _want_ to see - human with emotions, possibly vegetarian, rational thinkers, human children, but just furry and have four legs. 

I have never used an e-collar before but have seen it in action and I do see the merit of having one. I don't plan on using one but that's just because I kind of have a phobia of being electrocuted. I'm terrified of electric fences and I won't go near them, even if they are switched off. I don't want to touch an e-collar either. I just HATE the sensation of being electrocuted and I think I hate it because I would always get electrocuted on the electric fences that housed the horses and cows when I was a kid. Just . . . brrrrr! 

EDIT: Speaking of trying to ban e-collars, did anyone see this image of a prong collar? They don't actually do that, right? It's just a major misrepresentation, right?? 

http://d22r54gnmuhwmk.cloudfront.net/photos/4/tc/gi/dhTcgIZTxXTPXGu-556x313-noPad.jpg


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## jafo220

simba405 said:


> The thing is people who abuse their dog with an Ecollar might not even know they are doing it. They stim the dog into obedience and think that they are doing a good job. It's not as visual as yanking really hard on a prong.


I agree with some of this, but some know when they are misusing an e-collar too. The ones you mention though are usually the ones who have had no training. Any time you stray outside those guidelines is potential abuse as well as over use of the remote. While it's not as visual as abuse with any collar, it's still abuse either way. Thats why I mentioned redistricting sales to the general public in an attempt to force e-collar users to gain the needed training. 

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## misslesleedavis1

Yes that prong pic has been causing a stir in the AR community. It is not proper use of one obviously but it does not seem to matter, infact with comments like " I will kill someone who uses this on there dog" its turning out to be a a crapshow. I wonder if the police can do something about that? The random uttering death threats over Facebook. 

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## Bob_McBob

The prong photo is an embedded collar or severe untreated contact dermatitis injury caused by owner neglect. There is no proof the dog was even wearing a prong collar. 

Ecollar "burn" photos are usually pressure necrosis from the contacts, again due to owner neglect leaving the collar on the dog for days or weeks without breaks or adjustment. Imagine if patterns of severely infected bed sores in elderly care facilities were blamed on the bed manufacturer, not the standard of care  The only other possible cause is metal allergy like any other collar.


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## lhczth

I have used prong collars for 30 years and have never seen it to do that type of damage. That had to have been either a reaction or someone leaving the collar on the dog and the dog growing or getting fatter until the color imbedded into the neck. You can see the same thing happen with chokers or plain old buckle collars (and have seen this). I have also seen dogs' faces all rubbed raw or their eyes being squished from the head halter products. Just like with the e-collar, this is a people problem and not a tool problem. 

I remember talking to a German judge who commented that when they banned the prong and E they left them only this (showing his fists and pointing to his feet). It was a crude example, but pointed out that they have now been left with far less humane ways to deal with some dogs.


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## jafo220

A imagine a regular flat collar would have similar effects on the dogs neck if left on a growing dog. I believe I have seen it first hand though not up close at least that's what it appeared to have happened. They did have the humane society called on them.



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## blackshep

The photo of the injury from the prong collar was from an embedded collar left on the dog.

Here is his email address, I'd encourage people to write to him and express your disappointment in this bill [email protected]


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## Yoshi

lhczth said:


> I have used prong collars for 30 years and have never seen it to do that type of damage. That had to have been either a reaction or someone leaving the collar on the dog and the dog growing or getting fatter until the color imbedded into the neck.


I thought so. On here I have been reading that it is a wonderful tool when used correctly and it's more often than not safer than a choke chain. The picture was shared on Facebook by one of my friends. I expressed my concerns on my friend's post of the misrepresentation and I got so much bashing from it. Gah. :blush:


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## misslesleedavis1

Yoshi said:


> I thought so. On here I have been reading that it is a wonderful tool when used correctly and it's more often than not safer than a choke chain. The picture was shared on Facebook by one of my friends. I expressed my concerns on my friend's post of the misrepresentation and I got so much bashing from it. Gah. :blush:


Lol. 

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## blackshep

Wicked Seraphim, when I said on this forum that when my dog had a tick, and then that night another one crawled out and I found it crawling on my arm at 5am, so I kicked the dog off the bed and she was now sleeping in her crate, someone asked me how I'd feel if my SO did the same to me if I had a tick. lol I didn't even know how to respond to that it was so weird. I don't owe my dog a spot on my bed, she has her own. lol

It's funny, the people who are anti-prong, anti-ecollar always seem to have an immature EMOTIONAL reaction, and a full out meltdown full of personal attacks on people who don't share their opinion. They can't seem to support their views with any actual first hand experience or knowledge and can't seem to express their concerns without the personal attacks. 

I will be the first to say they are not for all dogs, but I can certainly see their value as a training tool when used correctly and appropriately. I use a prong with my dog, I have not used an ecollar, but I would not be opposed to it for off leash distance work, if/when we get there.


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## blackshep

Yoshi said:


> I thought so. On here I have been reading that it is a wonderful tool when used correctly and it's more often than not safer than a choke chain. The picture was shared on Facebook by one of my friends. I expressed my concerns on my friend's post of the misrepresentation and I got so much bashing from it. Gah. :blush:


 And this is the problem. It's the people frothing at the mouth who are speaking up the loudest and that is why things are changing and not for the better. 

I hope you guys will take a minute to write to the MP, so it's not just the PETA people being heard.


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## selzer

blackshep said:


> Wicked Seraphim, when I said on this forum that when my dog had a tick, and then that night another one crawled out and I found it crawling on my arm at 5am, so I kicked the dog off the bed and she was now sleeping in her crate, someone asked me how I'd feel if my SO did the same to me if I had a tick. lol I didn't even know how to respond to that it was so weird. I don't owe my dog a spot on my bed, she has her own. lol
> 
> It's funny, the people who are anti-prong, anti-ecollar always seem to have an immature EMOTIONAL reaction, and a full out meltdown full of personal attacks on people who don't share their opinion. They can't seem to support their views with any actual first hand experience or knowledge and can't seem to express their concerns without the personal attacks.
> 
> I will be the first to say they are not for all dogs, but I can certainly see their value as a training tool when used correctly and appropriately. I use a prong with my dog, I have not used an ecollar, but I would not be opposed to it for off leash distance work, if/when we get there.


And I get almost the same impression from the folks defending the use of and need for correction collars. They need to belittle people, and say things like, "sometimes offering a cookie isn't going to work" and more of the same. Almost always personal attacks and more emotion than logic. 

I guess sometimes our impressions depend upon which side of an issue we fall.


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## Bob_McBob

selzer said:


> And I get almost the same impression from the folks defending the use of and need for correction collars. They need to belittle people, and say things like, "sometimes offering a cookie isn't going to work" and more of the same. Almost always personal attacks and more emotion than logic.
> 
> I guess sometimes our impressions depend upon which side of an issue we fall.


I definitely get what you're saying here. The problem is that for many positive-only trainers, training is a black and white issue. You can either train any dog to do anything with a clicker and bag of treats or you are a failure and shouldn't own a dog. Nobody is doing themselves a favour by making snide remarks about cookies, but any trainer worth their salt who's using a prong is also using exactly the same marking and positive reinforcement techniques. It's about effectively using all the humane tools at your disposal when necessary.


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## selzer

Bob_McBob said:


> I definitely get what you're saying here. The problem is that for many positive-only trainers, training is a black and white issue. You can either train any dog to do anything with a clicker and bag of treats or you are a failure and shouldn't own a dog. Nobody is doing themselves a favour by making snide remarks about cookies, but any trainer worth their salt who's using a prong is also using exactly the same marking and positive reinforcement techniques. It's about effectively using all the humane tools at your disposal when necessary.


For many people who use correction collars, they feel that it is impossible to train without them, at least some dogs. I can train dogs without correction collars. Does that mean I am all positive? No way! I tell dogs "No!" I use EH! and I will block or correct in other ways. I really don't use treats so much as praise. And I don't monkey around with clickers either. 

So it is darn irritating that every time someone says they don't use a prong or e-collar, someone trots out the very old and boring crap about cookies and clickers. Prong collar people can be very black and white too. If you don't use the tools I use, if you don't approve of them, meaning use them, then you are a purely positive cookie-clicker nut. If you don't use prongs than you think we are less, you think we shouldn't own dogs, you think we can't train dogs -- quite paranoid, really. 

the fact is, some of us just don't like prong collars and e-collars. We have our reasons. We might even suggest them to others. We CAN train and manage dogs without them. And most of us CAN see some situations where the use of them will be easier overall FOR THE DOG, rather than just easier for the human. To suggest that we have had every dog since it was a puppy, or that we have more time to train the dog, or whatever, is simply not correct, and irritating when it is suggested.

If ya'all want us to think that prong collar people are not all yank and crank bullies, than maybe ya'all can give us more credit than being all click-and-treat pacifists. While both types undoubtedly exist on the continuum of trainers, the fact is most of us are way more in the middle than anyone seems willing to accept or suggest. 

Whatever. I guess it is just more interesting when people are strongly in one corner or the other. More drama. They say that GSDs are drama-queens, and a lot of times there owners tend to be too.


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## selzer

I am going to go one further. I got a pup back a little more than a week ago. He will be a year and a half old in the end of July. So a little more than 16 months old. His owner had him from a young puppies. 10 or 12 weeks old. 

The dog had not seen me since then. And when I went over there, the dog literally dragged his owner to me, barking and lunging and got right up to my outstretched hand, just slightly knicking it -- not a bite. 

I told him, "I'm not afraid of you" and went to my car and got some treats. I talked to his owner while dropping him treats, and soon he was eating them out of my hand. 

His owner could not load him up, and he would not jump up into the crate, and I did not like to meet him and then muscle him into the crate by lifting him into my car, so I pulled out the crate, had the gentleman load him up, and then we lifte him in. 

30 minutes later, I stopped at my sister's and opened the crate, and put his towel and kong in there, and removed the prong collar. 

An hour later, I stopped at my mother's and let him out to potty, on the martingale, and he jumped back into the car for me. 

The man said he is always on lead outside. At my house, I have let him out in my front yard almost every day -- no fences, sometimes to run with Hepsi. Sometimes to go to my Explorer. No lead. 

He pulls like a freight train. I already know that the prong will not stop that. I can dig in my heels and he will stop pulling, and then I can continue. I will train him without using the prong collar. I am not concerned at all. My nieces love the boy, and already I feel comfortable enough to leave them together, while I go in the other end of the house. I put him in his indoor/outdoor if I go outside or bring Babs in. 

As for treats, beyond that first day, he has gotten treats, only as my other dogs do: a bit of toast or muffin after breakfast, a sausage, a bit of cheese when I am thinking about it. I use my voice for training, it can correct and it can praise. Beyond puppy, we can lure a dog into position and teach with treats, or we can lure a dog into position and teach with our body language, and use praise as a positive marker, but we needn't be stuffing them full of treats all the time.

Both extremes of training should have those that oppose them. Both damage dogs. Not everyone who clicks or treats is damaging dogs, not everyone who uses correction collars is damaging dogs. Not everyone who fails to do one or the other or either is damaging dogs.


----------



## Bob_McBob

I truly don't care how anyone else chooses to train their dog. All I ask is that I receive the same consideration. For a purely positive-only trainer who believes physical correction and aversive methods are inhumane and ineffective, there is no middle ground. The opposite of "sometimes offering a cookie isn't going to work" isn't "sometimes a prong isn't going to work", it's "prongs should be illegal". That's exactly what I'm reading in Facebook posts from every local positive-only dog training business calling for the criminalization of e-collar use.


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## Blitzkrieg1

...and then he bought a working line...and realized what he was missing..lol..


----------



## David Winners

selzer said:


> I am going to go one further. I got a pup back a little more than a week ago. He will be a year and a half old in the end of July. So a little more than 16 months old. His owner had him from a young puppies. 10 or 12 weeks old.
> 
> The dog had not seen me since then. And when I went over there, the dog literally dragged his owner to me, barking and lunging and got right up to my outstretched hand, just slightly knicking it -- not a bite.
> 
> I told him, "I'm not afraid of you" and went to my car and got some treats. I talked to his owner while dropping him treats, and soon he was eating them out of my hand.
> 
> His owner could not load him up, and he would not jump up into the crate, and I did not like to meet him and then muscle him into the crate by lifting him into my car, so I pulled out the crate, had the gentleman load him up, and then we lifte him in.
> 
> 30 minutes later, I stopped at my sister's and opened the crate, and put his towel and kong in there, and removed the prong collar.
> 
> An hour later, I stopped at my mother's and let him out to potty, on the martingale, and he jumped back into the car for me.
> 
> The man said he is always on lead outside. At my house, I have let him out in my front yard almost every day -- no fences, sometimes to run with Hepsi. Sometimes to go to my Explorer. No lead.
> 
> He pulls like a freight train. I already know that the prong will not stop that. I can dig in my heels and he will stop pulling, and then I can continue. I will train him without using the prong collar. I am not concerned at all. My nieces love the boy, and already I feel comfortable enough to leave them together, while I go in the other end of the house. I put him in his indoor/outdoor if I go outside or bring Babs in.
> 
> As for treats, beyond that first day, he has gotten treats, only as my other dogs do: a bit of toast or muffin after breakfast, a sausage, a bit of cheese when I am thinking about it. I use my voice for training, it can correct and it can praise. Beyond puppy, we can lure a dog into position and teach with treats, or we can lure a dog into position and teach with our body language, and use praise as a positive marker, but we needn't be stuffing them full of treats all the time.
> 
> Both extremes of training should have those that oppose them. Both damage dogs. Not everyone who clicks or treats is damaging dogs, not everyone who uses correction collars is damaging dogs. Not everyone who fails to do one or the other or either is damaging dogs.


Do you recognize that there is a difference in training a dog to behave around the house and training for work or bite sport? 

I'd like to see video of a dog trained to IPO1 with only praise and verbal corrections. 

David Winners


----------



## Baillif

I sometimes wonder what kind of reliability people who claim they can train dogs using non aversive methods are really looking for because it's probably not what I'd consider reliable.

Reliable to me is a dog performing a command under real world distraction conditions in non familiar environments at least 95 times out of 100 without needing to be corrected. It's me being able to walk my dog off leash without corrective collars or a leash and know he's sticking with me even if there are deer or cars or people walking leash reactive dogs. Bonus points if you can get it without suppressing the dog.

If you're doing it right and and doing it consistently you should rarely have to correct your dog, and when you do the space of time between corrections should be further and further apart until it doesn't have to happen anymore.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

No one is going to bat for training tools tho. 

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## misslesleedavis1

Maybe trainers with real life expertise could write in with there opinions. No trainer can fix every dog with one method. 

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## KaiserandStella

Nothing good will come from a ban on useful dog training tools. Responsible people will be punished in the end. Those that abuse dogs will continue to do so regardless.

Some extreme individuals don't care to see the bigger picture on this. After all, they feel it doesn't affect them. Shame.


----------



## Blanketback

I'm just sick and tired of hearing opinions from people who've never used a prong - or maybe ever even seen one, lol. It's a hot-button issue for sure, but it doesn't make sense to me that someone can form an opinion without basing it on facts or firsthand knowledge. If someone chooses not to use one that's fine - but there's a huge difference between _that_ and someone telling me _not_ to.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Baillif said:


> I sometimes wonder what kind of reliability people who claim they can train dogs using non aversive methods are really looking for because it's probably not what I'd consider reliable.
> 
> Reliable to me is a dog performing a command under real world distraction conditions in non familiar environments at least 95 times out of 100 without needing to be corrected. It's me being able to walk my dog off leash without corrective collars or a leash and know he's sticking with me even if there are deer or cars or people walking leash reactive dogs. Bonus points if you can get it without suppressing the dog.
> 
> If you're doing it right and and doing it consistently you should rarely have to correct your dog, and when you do the space of time between corrections should be further and further apart until it doesn't have to happen anymore.


Its real easy ask for video. Its amazing how many supposed professionals lack any decent video. Still people happily show up to their classes and truly believe all they will ever need is treats and love..lol.


----------



## Blanketback

It doesn't really matter to what degree someone else's dog is trained though. My "well trained" sure as heck isn't my neighbor's definition of the same, lol - or even my DH's  so that line of reasoning doesn't come into play. I like the prong, I find it useful in certain situations, and I will continue to use it as I see fit. If someone has a problem with it then that's too bad. Although if the those same people are actually able to outlaw the prong, then don't we have more serious issues going on?


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## selzer

David Winners said:


> Do you recognize that there is a difference in training a dog to behave around the house and training for work or bite sport?
> 
> I'd like to see video of a dog trained to IPO1 with only praise and verbal corrections.
> 
> David Winners


Why don't you go and pick on someone who wants the government to come and cease all correction collars. That person isn't me. 

See, if you aren't using a correction collar, you obviously want the government to ban them, you have no idea that training for work or IPO might be different than managing a dog IN YOUR HOME -- like, if you aren't training a dog for work or IPO, then your dog goes nowhere and does nothing worth consideration, LOL! Got to love it here. Mostly, dead, but still we have to drive it in that the only people who are welcome here are working line, schutzhund people and people with dogs who do protection sport or bite in the course of working.


----------



## selzer

Baillif said:


> I sometimes wonder what kind of reliability people who claim they can train dogs using non aversive methods are really looking for because it's probably not what I'd consider reliable.
> 
> Reliable to me is a dog performing a command under real world distraction conditions in non familiar environments at least 95 times out of 100 without needing to be corrected. It's me being able to walk my dog off leash without corrective collars or a leash and know he's sticking with me even if there are deer or cars or people walking leash reactive dogs. Bonus points if you can get it without suppressing the dog.
> 
> If you're doing it right and and doing it consistently you should rarely have to correct your dog, and when you do the space of time between corrections should be further and further apart until it doesn't have to happen anymore.


The thing is, training without aversives is not the same as being permissive. 

If you do not repeat your commands, and follow through every time, in your training, you can have that reliability. If you teach using positive and negative markers, your need for negative markers is very low, if you teach the command, and then reinforce it by repetition without and with distractions, and do not let the dog get away with not obeying commands. If you tell the dog, and then help him, and follow through, rather than just tell the dog again, and again, and again louder each time, until the dog thinks it's time to do what you want, you rarely have to use any negative markers, and yes, the need for them dwindles down to almost nil. 

If you have realistic expectations, train the dog, do not give the opportunity for the dog to ignore, do not teach the dog to ignore, then of course you will have 95+% compiance in all situations. 

It comes down to consistency, not tools. If you let a dog get away with something 90% of the time, and 2% of the time reward the dog for it, and 8% of the time, punish the dog for it, it really doesn't matter what tools you are using. You are going to have a dog that is not reliable. Dog training is mostly about training and disciplining yourself, not the dog. But of course, I am talking lowly training for AKC events, and going out in public with a dog, not IPO/bitework sport or work.


----------



## David Winners

selzer said:


> Why don't you go and pick on someone who wants the government to come and cease all correction collars. That person isn't me.
> 
> See, if you aren't using a correction collar, you obviously want the government to ban them, you have no idea that training for work or IPO might be different than managing a dog IN YOUR HOME -- like, if you aren't training a dog for work or IPO, then your dog goes nowhere and does nothing worth consideration, LOL! Got to love it here. Mostly, dead, but still we have to drive it in that the only people who are welcome here are working line, schutzhund people and people with dogs who do protection sport or bite in the course of working.


Those are all your words and not mine, and are not in the context of which I spoke. 

At all. 

David Winners


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## selzer

David Winners said:


> Those are all your words and not mine, and are not in the context of which I spoke.
> 
> At all.
> 
> David Winners


But that is how you came across David. 

"Do you recognize that there is a difference in training a dog to behave around the house and training for work or bite sport? 

I'd like to see video of a dog trained to IPO1 with only praise and verbal corrections. 

David Winners"

The vast majority of dogs out there with corrective collars on aren't doing any sort of IPO / bite training. And I don't see why this thread needs to go down that road. 

People should be able to use whatever tool works for them. 

But we do not have to belittle people for choosing to use one, or choosing not to use one.


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## Castlemaid

My working line male has been trained all positive, he is happy to work for a ball reward and praise, and is happy to please me. 

But working in bite-work is a different kettle of fish. The intensity and drive that these dogs tap into when working in defense or fight drive is something that one needs to have hands-on experience to understand.

I think people who insist on saying that dogs should be trained all positive only in bite-work, that prongs or electric are a sign of a bad trainer, are afraid to face the fact that our working dogs, bred for police and military work, have that core of agression and defense in their make-up, and don't understand what these dogs are made of, what they bring out in training or real-life law enforcement situations. 

It is frustrating when experienced members try share their knowledge, experience, and insight about working dogs in bite-work, in law enforcement, in the military, and others dismiss their posts and words because they feel that their own experience in training dogs in Rally-O is enough to pass judgement on them. Then when disagreed with, the entire board is attacked and accused of being biased and anti-pet dog, when some of the most helpful people on this board, who have tons of working dog experience, go out of their way to help the many pet-owners on this board with their questions and worries. 

I mean, really? 

Let's stop accusing and pointing fingers and feeling sorry for oneself, and lets start listening with an open mind and trying to learn.


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## David Winners

Castlemaid said:


> My working line male has been trained all positive, he is happy to work for a ball reward and praise, and is happy to please me.
> 
> But working in bite-work is a different kettle of fish. The intensity and drive that these dogs tap into when working in defense or fight drive is something that one needs to have hands-on experience to understand.
> 
> I think people who insist on saying that dogs should be trained all positive only in bite-work, that prongs or electric are a sign of a bad trainer, are afraid to face the fact that our working dogs, bred for police and military work, have that core of agression and defense in their make-up, and don't understand what these dogs are made of, what they bring out in training or real-life law enforcement situations.
> 
> It is frustrating when experienced members try share their knowledge, experience, and insight about working dogs in bite-work, in law enforcement, in the military, and others dismiss their posts and words because they feel that their own experience in training dogs in Rally-O is enough to pass judgement on them. Then when disagreed with, the entire board is attacked and accused of being biased and anti-pet dog, when some of the most helpful people on this board, who have tons of working dog experience, go out of their way to help the many pet-owners on this board with their questions and worries.
> 
> I mean, really?
> 
> Let's stop accusing and pointing fingers and feeling sorry for oneself, and lets start listening with an open mind and trying to learn.


You explained that very succinctly. 

Thank you. 

Trying to stop a dog that really wants to fight someone without aversives is beyond anything I have seen accomplished. 

More later... Still working, ugh. 

David Winners


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## selzer

Castlemaid said:


> My working line male has been trained all positive, he is happy to work for a ball reward and praise, and is happy to please me.
> 
> But working in bite-work is a different kettle of fish. The intensity and drive that these dogs tap into when working in defense or fight drive is something that one needs to have hands-on experience to understand.
> 
> I think people who insist on saying that dogs should be trained all positive only in bite-work, that prongs or electric are a sign of a bad trainer, are afraid to face the fact that our working dogs, bred for police and military work, have that core of agression and defense in their make-up, and don't understand what these dogs are made of, what they bring out in training or real-life law enforcement situations.
> 
> It is frustrating when experienced members try share their knowledge, experience, and insight about working dogs in bite-work, in law enforcement, in the military, and others dismiss their posts and words because they feel that their own experience in training dogs in Rally-O is enough to pass judgement on them. Then when disagreed with, the entire board is attacked and accused of being biased and anti-pet dog, when some of the most helpful people on this board, who have tons of working dog experience, go out of their way to help the many pet-owners on this board with their questions and worries.
> 
> I mean, really?
> 
> Let's stop accusing and pointing fingers and feeling sorry for oneself, and lets start listening with an open mind and trying to learn.


LOL!!!!

The moment you listen to ANYTHING with an open mind, I might just eat a sardine .

I NEVER said ANYTHING about purely positive, making people train without aversives, or wanting E-collars or prong collars banned. LOL! 

Whatever. Have a great night ya'all I am too tired for the insanity tonight.


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## KaiserandStella

This thread is going to take a turn for the worse at this rate. Everyone on all sides of the dog training spectrum need to stop slinging insults and focus that attention on more important things. No useful training tool regardless of what end of the training spectrum it lands on should be banned. Those on the positive training end that don't support the ban I have a lot of respect for and I lean to the opposite direction from them.


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## David Winners

KaiserandStella said:


> This thread is going to take a turn for the worse at this rate. Everyone on all sides of the dog training spectrum need to stop slinging insults and focus that attention on more important things. No useful training tool regardless of what end of the training spectrum it lands on should be banned. Those on the positive training end that don't support the ban deserve to be treated with respect.


Absolutely! I guess I don't see where anyone on that side of the discussion was disrespected. 

The problem I see with the issue is that the people making the decisions have probably never trained a dog to do work, just like many advocates of training without aversives. It's like Martha Stewart making decisions about the training of soldiers for combat operations. 

Then you have the "you don't need those tools" crowd, who don't train dogs for work either. They just know that they could train those dogs, who save lives every day, without those tools. They have never done it, but they are just sure that prongs and e-collars aren't necessary. I mean, they can do crazy obedience stuff, like jump over their dog in a down stay, so that must equate to a dog getting called off on a long send after a heated track and firefight. 

People stating that these tools are superfluous is ammunition for those that support the ban. 

I realize that only a small portion of prong and e-collar users are training for work or sport . That is inconsequential. Only a small portion of the public has service animals. They deserve to be able to use those animals to better their quality of life. Only a small portion of working dogs are explosives detection dogs, but we need them, so we should be able to utilize the tools necessary to train dual purpose dogs. Only a small portion of the dogs walking around on the street are truly DA/HA, but for safety sake, taking the tools away that help people control these dogs is a mistake. 

Look up kikopup on YouTube. Great trainer. Awesome dogs. I have learned a lot from her. Those same things don't work to control a dog that wants to fight, at least not in any setting I have experienced. 

When I posed the question to see a video of a dog trained to IPO1 without toys or training collars, it was an honest request, not some backhanded insult. If there is a way to do it, I'm all in. If I can learn to communicate with the average working dog without aversives in a way that results in true reliability under stress, I'm all for it. I just haven't seen it, and until then, I'm going to stand behind the tools and methods that work, because lives are at stake. Taking those tools away will have consequences. Adding to the belief that those tools are unnecessary leads to making those tools unavailable for those that need them. 

If your dog blows off a down stay in rally, you lose some points, not the life of the dog and the people relying on that dog. Different world with a different set of rules and a different population of dogs. 

David Winners


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## misslesleedavis1

David winners. You should write in a letter then, as well as the other notable trainers on the forum. Seems we are lacking in crowds that are open minded to all forms of training.

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## selzer

I don't give a darn about IPO / working because using that argument opens the door for people to allow the collars for specified training, specified individuals, while the rest of the people are not given access. 

The problem is that the collars should not be banned for ANYONE. 

What does it matter if I can train a dog without the collar for measley management or AKC events, Rally, or Obedience (I notice David, you always pick the least of my accomplishments to harp on about)? It doesn't matter if I am not training a dog in protection, if I don't know the first thing about protection training. That is inconsequential. 

The fact is, if ordinary citizens are unable to use tools to help them manage their ordinary dogs in ordinary situations, dogs will die. If they ban e-collars, prong collars will be next. 

I am not worried about the working-dog owners. Sorry, they found things to use before prong collars and e-collars, [yes, I do have Max's book and saw the precursor to the prong collar in there] and they will find other things to use to do what they need to do. They are training dogs, and they will be fine without specific tools. They will use methods that are maybe uglier than what is currently available, but they will continue to train dogs. 

It is the pet people, (not the akc people we can't use them in trials anyway), that rely on the collars whose dogs will either fail miserably without them, or the owners will simply give the dogs up because they realize that they cannot manage them. 

It shouldn't be about what a tiny fraction of the people are using the collars for.


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## misslesleedavis1

Well. Last time I checked before prongs and e collars were everywere people hurt and abused dogs with flat collars and choke chains..leashes too. Thats why they want to ban them so what they will find is, dogs may not be suffering from specific training tool but they will still be indeed suffering. 

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## selzer

misslesleedavis1 said:


> David winners. You should write in a letter then, as well as the other notable trainers on the forum. Seems we are lacking in crowds that are open minded to all forms of training.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


There are some loud-mouthed people making a stink, and they will get their way, because the silent majority will never believe that either it effects them personally, or that it will ever be passed. 

I just don't believe there are that many purely positive people out there that are causing this. My guess is that it is PETA, people who don't even own dogs, that are driving the legislation. They are happy every time they see people going at each other about training methods. Because training is against their philosophy, as is dogs working for humans. And the idea of using something with prongs that pinches or shocks a dog has them in fits.

It isn't so much the purely positive people, I think there are only three of them anyway. It is your PETA people who have both the numbers and the resources to drive this sort of stuff.


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## misslesleedavis1

Well I guess its hard to tame a bunch of naked chicks rolling around in pigs blood on parliment screaming "prongs kill" .... 

May as well lose the battle and let the crazies have it.

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## David Winners

misslesleedavis1 said:


> David winners. You should write in a letter then, as well as the other notable trainers on the forum. Seems we are lacking in crowds that are open minded to all forms of training.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've written several.


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## misslesleedavis1

David Winners said:


> I've written several.


Any success? 

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## selzer

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Well I guess its hard to tame a bunch of naked chicks rolling around in pigs blood on parliment screaming "prongs kill" ....
> 
> May as well lose the battle and let the crazies have it.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think I will stay in the US. We've got crazies, but that's pretty out there.


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## Bob_McBob

How do you have a reasonable conversation when this is what the other side is posting?


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## misslesleedavis1

selzer said:


> I think I will stay in the US. We've got crazies, but that's pretty out there.


Lol yeah..us canadians are not the laid back, apologetic, living in iglooo type afterall eh! 

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## misslesleedavis1

I dont know bob. I guess they have to come up with something equally misrepresentative. Maybe a crazy vicious dog chewing someone arm off and the slogan would be "just ignore it" ? 

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## Yoshi

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I dont know bob. I guess they have to come up with something equally misrepresentative. Maybe a crazy vicious dog chewing someone arm off and the slogan would be "just ignore it" ?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I should do a cartoon of that. 

But seriously, why must everyone force everyone that only ONE method is right? Why can't there be a balance? Just because one method is wrong for someone else does not mean that it is wrong for the other. It's like religions, schools or politics, why force it on people? No one person is the same and certain things will not work on them, just like dogs. 

Terrierman's Daily Dose: It's a Cult, and You've Been Brainwashed


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## misslesleedavis1

Alright yoshi hook me up with that cartoon! 

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## David Winners

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Any success?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I got responses. Success will be measured by the outcome. 

David Winners


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## lalachka

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I dont know bob. I guess they have to come up with something equally misrepresentative. Maybe a crazy vicious dog chewing someone arm off and the slogan would be "just ignore it" ?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Nope, the slogan is 'clicker train it'


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## KaiserandStella

selzer said:


> The fact is, if ordinary citizens are unable to use tools to help them manage their ordinary dogs in ordinary situations, dogs will die. If they ban e-collars, prong collars will be next.


After that choke collars, bark collars, invisible fences.. last to go will be nylon collars, leashes, and harnesses. You won't be needing them anymore by that point. The final nail in the coffin for this is a ban on pet ownership.


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## Yoshi

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Alright yoshi hook me up with that cartoon!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I would if I could but cartoons are not my forte. I tend to do realism(?) if that is what it's called. My art is done in shades, not shapes. Unless you don't mind seeing a really poorly made cartoon then I'll go ahead.  









This was my second attempt at oil paints. I love the colour but the proportions are terrible!


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## misslesleedavis1

That is very pretty! You have so much talent  

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## Yoshi

misslesleedavis1 said:


> That is very pretty! You have so much talent
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you!


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## mechanic1908

I haven't read this whole thread so sorry if it's been covered already (I'm on my mobile so it's a bit of a pain) I train upland bird hunting dogs andE collars are indispensable training aids for some dogs. They are just what the Dr. Ordered to break a dog of ranging too far. If used properly I have no idea why they would ban them. Sadly any tool can be misused and it's unfortunate people's reaction to the few who abuse them to ban them from use by everyone.


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## jafo220

mechanic1908 said:


> I haven't read this whole thread so sorry if it's been covered already (I'm on my mobile so it's a bit of a pain) I train upland bird hunting dogs andE collars are indispensable training aids for some dogs. They are just what the Dr. Ordered to break a dog of ranging too far. If used properly I have no idea why they would ban them. Sadly any tool can be misused and it's unfortunate people's reaction to the few who abuse them to ban them from use by everyone.


It's really more about agendas and misinformation to achieve those agendas no matter whether you're pro or con or if it's right or wrong. If they actually sat down and debated the pro's and con's of training tools objectively, they could come to a compromise that would benefit everyone. But in reality, we know that probably won't happen.

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## Bob_McBob

Is shaping behaviour with continuous low level stim like Lou Castle's protocols especially unusual in the dog training world? Every study about ecollars I read has them being used exclusively for correction, usually with the tone or vibrate as a "warning cue" for an impending correction. They rarely say anything about the model or method of setting working level. The study I'm reading now specifically says they only set the working level once, on the first day of training over a five day period. Results were judged subjectively by owners.


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## selzer

I am sure that good trainers can use the tool for other than corrections, but will the majority of people use them that way? Consider prong collars. They can be used in protection training to increase something or other as per some post here quite a while ago, but most people use them for corrections or for power steering. 

I am guessing that most people out there training dogs haven't even heard of shaping behavior.


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## Baillif

What's wrong with using an e collar for "corrections?"


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## selzer

Baillif said:


> What's wrong with using an e collar for "corrections?"


I don't think that was the question. I was just responding to the idea of shaping behaviors using an e-collar.


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## Baillif

Fair enough.


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## Bob_McBob

Baillif said:


> What's wrong with using an e collar for "corrections?"


Nothing at all, I'm just curious if Lou's protocol and similar methods would be considered unusual vs. just straight corrections to reinforce known behaviours. Michael Ellis appears to use both in his training methods.



Michael Ellis said:


> If I've done leash pressure work and my dog really understands that ... and I use the leash and the Ecollar together, I minimize all the weirdness that can potentially happen or the bad associations or the superstitious associations that can happen. So leash pressure is going to be an integral part of our system of training and it is the escape part of the escape avoidance paradigm. The avoidance part is where the dog learns to avoid an unpleasant consequence by either doing or not doing something. The escape part is where the dog learns to turn pressure off with their behavior. Like pulling the leash, they move, it stops ... I turn off the Ecollar. They down, it stops. (As he says this on the video he lifts his thumb as if lifting it off the button of an Ecollar). That's escape. Avoidance means, of correction. My dog jumps on the counter I hit him with the collar, I bonk him (and he moves his hands as if giving a leash correction) I give him a leash correction, whatever, he figures out that he can avoid that by not jumping on the counter. I can say sit, my dog doesn’t, I can give him a correction (he moves his hands as if giving a leash correction). Next time I say sit he sits in an attempt to avoid what happens afterwards. Pretty straight forward. So all pressure stuff is going to fall into one of those two categories, either the escape portion or the avoidance portion.


I've certainly seen various Youtube videos of professional ecollar trainers either clearly following Lou's protocols or else something very similar. Sean O'Shea is an obvious example. I've never seen this kind of low level stim and escape/negative reinforcement training mentioned in scientific research, which tends to focus exclusively on aversive corrections. Opinions are split between following Lou or Michael on the forum here, but Lou's protocols and similar negative reinforcement techniques are extremely well-represented among enthusiast dog owners on forums, ecollar trainers with online presence, ecollar information sites, and so on; far more so than the research or general public understanding would seem to indicate. It's one of the reasons Lou is so critical of most ecollar research. Is this just my imagination?

I was going to say I hadn't seen continuous low level stim discussed by positive trainers or those otherwise opposed to ecollar use, but it appears the usual propaganda warns people about new "misleading marketing" like "escape training" and "negative reinforcement". Right before the part where it describes the "common" problem of ecollars malfunctioning spectacularly and causing severe electrical burns while the dog runs around screaming from the continuous torture


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## jafo220

Bob_McBob said:


> Nothing at all, I'm just curious if Lou's protocol and similar methods would be considered unusual vs. just straight corrections to reinforce known behaviours. Michael Ellis appears to use both in his training methods.
> 
> 
> 
> I've certainly seen various Youtube videos of professional ecollar trainers either clearly following Lou's protocols or else something very similar. Sean O'Shea is an obvious example. I've never seen this kind of low level stim and escape/negative reinforcement training mentioned in scientific research, which tends to focus exclusively on aversive corrections. Opinions are split between following Lou or Michael on the forum here, but Lou's protocols and similar negative reinforcement techniques are extremely well-represented among enthusiast dog owners on forums, ecollar trainers with online presence, ecollar information sites, and so on; far more so than the research or general public understanding would seem to indicate. It's one of the reasons Lou is so critical of most ecollar research. Is this just my imagination?
> 
> I was going to say I hadn't seen continuous low level stim discussed by positive trainers or those otherwise opposed to ecollar use, but it appears the usual propaganda warns people about new "misleading marketing" like "escape training" and "negative reinforcement". Right before the part where it describes the "common" problem of ecollars malfunctioning spectacularly and causing severe electrical burns while the dog runs around screaming from the continuous torture


Low level stims are different things to different dogs. Thats the way I understand "low level" stim training. If I remember correctly, there is a method to finding this setting for each individual dog. It's not the same generic level of stim for every dog. This training must also be done with select e-collar systems or brands to work properly.

As far as research goes, it depends on who is funding the research and who is involved with the research. I think you would get two different results from two studies, one using one low level stim like what Lou trains with and one study using low to high level stems with maybe less experience or less thought into the training. JMO

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## Tomcat

*Not sure if all understand impacts..*

Does everybody realize this also will ban the electric - invisible fences? Which also use electric shock collars as their means of containing the dogs.

We have a training collar for our dog, which we could find one with the beep only. She has been trained since a puppy to come back when we beep it. Saves going outside and calling her, simply push button and beep. I have yet to find one with the beep only mode though. So this law would effectively also outlaw those who use beeping only.


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## selzer

Tomcat said:


> Does everybody realize this also will ban the electric - invisible fences? Which also use electric shock collars as their means of containing the dogs.
> 
> We have a training collar for our dog, which we could find one with the beep only. She has been trained since a puppy to come back when we beep it. Saves going outside and calling her, simply push button and beep. I have yet to find one with the beep only mode though. So this law would effectively also outlaw those who use beeping only.


I dunno. Don't like invisible fences either. Still, I should think the government could find better things to waste their time and the people's money on.


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## T U N D R A

Anyone ever seen the movie "Sybil" ..? 
The poor girl was tortured by her own mother so much that she was afraid of ~dish towels~ .
These are common, ordinary, everyday things that hav a function and use. But mis-used, Anything can hav a negative connotation. 
Guns, in the wrong hands, without proper information, can do damage. 
So can a garden rake.
LE uses shock or "stimulus" collars all the time. They work. 
In the wrong hands, of course these devices can be abused.. but the majority of people that invest the $150 for a dog collar are interested in conditioning behaviors, and getting a dog to listen/obey. Period. Consider a dog that doesn't (listen) and runs across the street and gets hit by a car. The collars help establish consistency, alpha position, and without the owner getting "worn out" with other, more taxing methods. 
I use a collar but the way to use it is I really only had to use the stimulus a few times and she caught on fast. Years later, I almost use the "beep" tone exclusively. The "beep" tone sounds as a precursor to the stimuli/shock and the dog knows this. They learn fasst. Combine that with they really do want to please and you hav a highly effective tool. 
Personally I think its cruel having to use a needle to giv me that flu shot..


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