# Texas-Owner Surrender - read carefully



## Vangie

This is Ruger he is


* Age: 1.5
* Gender: Male 
* Mix/Purebred: Pure 
* Housetrained: Yes
* Crate trained: yes 
* Heartworm Negative/Positive: negative 
* Spayed/Neutered: neutered 
* Micro chipped: no
* Good with other dogs: Most 
* Good with cats: Most 
* Good with children: sort of 

He gets spastic around children. He does not like costumes or things covering their faces. He needs training which I cannot afford right now. I am in the process of moving and money just isn't a luxury i have right now, time is not one either. 
I posted on here the other day in fearful/aggressive forum because he is both of those. Its labeled "end of my rope". 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/319297-end-my-rope.html


We got him over a year ago from a nice little lady here in SA.(MISTAKE_RUDE FREAKING LADY) We met his dad, and his dad was really nice, well trained, however his mom was another story.
It made me hesitant to get him knowing his mom wasn't nice. I got him anyways. He is an amazing dog. Potty trained in less than a week at 2 1/2 months old. Was great in stores, was nice to people. 

Then at around 4 months he started changing almost. He would growl in petsmart at people and dogs. Then people would come over and we would have to put him up because of the way he was acting(growling but hiding). He didn't try to bite anyone, he just acts nervous and will not go near them. My husbands work friend however went over to him kind of quick and aggressive like and he lunged at his throat.

I have 2 kids and another GSD(whom i adopted from New York) and 2 cats. He is great around them all.
Well what made me rethink the way he was acting is fine is when my 6 year old niece and a bunch of other family was over and she came in our room @ 2 am to sleep with my boys who were asleep on the floor, with no lights and he nipped at her face when she went to give him a hug. ( Yes this is my fault, I am fully aware I should have just kept him in his kennel, but everyone was asleep. I didnt think anyone would just barge into my room)
That was the last straw. It scared me to death. He only left a small scratch, but I can't have a dog that will do that when I have children at my house on a day by day basis. I think he was just guarding his territory, but at this point. I just don't know anymore.
I know he is a result of backyard breeding. She's only 6. I tend to think of the what ifs.I know with rehabilitation and training he would be an amazing dog. He sits, lays down, stays. He was spoiled rotten as a puppy just because he was so amazing. He plays fetch with anything and everything. I wake up to find his tennis balls in bed with me because he trys to play fetch with me when Im sleeping. People have told me to put him into training but at this point we cannot afford it. Im still hesitant on even rehoming him Because we do love him, I just can't take the risk. The other thing that scared me is when my kids dressed up in their ninja suits he went psycho on them, barking and growling. They had to run in their room real quick!! Please help and no bashing please.


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## Lilie

I'm in the Pearland area. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help. I'm sad that you need to find a new home for your boy, but I'm glad that you are doing your best to find him the best home you can.


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## Buggibub

We can help with transport and what not. If Houston GSD cant take him in, maybe Lilie can. I go back and forth from HTown regularly, so if you can get him to Austin, I can get him to Lilie or Houston. 


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## Vangie

So, Ive heard from 2 different rescues now. One has told me to put him down. 
GSD Rescue of Central Texas

"Sometimes we do if we have room, but cannot take aggressive dogs. So sorry. Fear aggression is the worst kind, its so unpredictable. It would be better for you to put him down if you can't work with him or afford to work with a behaviorist on his issues. Shelters will put him down and he would be scared there and miserable before he dies. "

The other one, I had to do an App for. And wait.


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## Jax08

I find that odd that a rescue would recommend putting him down without evaluating him themselves. Very odd. There are at least two Houston Rescues. Which one did you contact?


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## Buggibub

Vangie said:


> So, Ive heard from 2 different rescues now. One has told me to put him down.
> GSD Rescue of Central Texas
> 
> "Sometimes we do if we have room, but cannot take aggressive dogs. So sorry. Fear aggression is the worst kind, its so unpredictable. It would be better for you to put him down if you can't work with him or afford to work with a behaviorist on his issues. Shelters will put him down and he would be scared there and miserable before he dies. "
> 
> The other one, I had to do an App for. And wait.


That may be your best option. Free him of the demons. At least you'd be there with him. In the mean time, wait it out. 

How has his behavior been this week? Have you worked on any obedience to assert dominance? A lot of changes can be made in a week's time by doing the little things I recommended. 


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## Buggibub

Jax08 said:


> I find that odd that a rescue would recommend putting him down without evaluating him themselves. Very odd. There are at least two Houston Rescues. Which one did you contact?


Sort of odd, sort of not. central tx GSD solely relies on foster families and I don't think they want to put a foster host in that sort of situation. Not every foster family is equipped to handle a dog like Ruger, and after seeing the central Tx foster app, I think even fewer are equipped in Austin. 

What about San Antonio Pets Alive! Or Austin Pets Alive! They are no kill shelters and the shepherds go to homes pretty quickly. They really put themselves out there in the community and get a lot of positive press. 


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## Vangie

Buggibub said:


> That may be your best option. Free him of the demons. At least you'd be there with him. In the mean time, wait it out.
> 
> How has his behavior been this week? Have you worked on any obedience to assert dominance? A lot of changes can be made in a week's time by doing the little things I recommended.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well, my female and him got into it this weekend. He has cuts on his face. While my mom and I were looking at them, he growled and barked at her, Im sure he was just nervous, but as my husband keeps saying, I can't keep making excuses for everything he does wrong. He has never done that before. He treats her like he treats me. 
I did the connecting him to me thing, which wasn't very difficult since he follows me around everywhere anyway. 
He did really good. Other than that, that is all Ive had time for, between packing and trying to find a place to live in SA with 2 GSDs and especially an aggressive one, and having sick kids. I haven't had time to much.. 
This is my schedule all the time though. I don't have time for much. What time I Do have is usually taking the kids to practice, to friends houses. To go visit family. Im the only one here usually with no help, so having time for that... yea it doesnt happen much!


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## Vangie

Jax08 said:


> I find that odd that a rescue would recommend putting him down without evaluating him themselves. Very odd. There are at least two Houston Rescues. Which one did you contact?


Greater Houston German Shepherd Dog Rescue


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## Buggibub

He should probably be listed for only dog/no cats/no kids. In that setting, I bet he would do fine with a single person or couple. 


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## Jax08

Buggibub said:


> Sort of odd, sort of not. central tx GSD solely relies on foster families and I don't think they want to put a foster host in that sort of situation. Not every foster family is equipped to handle a dog like Ruger, and after seeing the central Tx foster app, I think even fewer are equipped in Austin.
> http://www.petguide.com/mobile


Every rescue I've ever worked with has foster homes. And not one of them would recommend euthanizing a dog without eval'ing them. Quite often the "issues" are not as the owner describes so to recommend euthanizing him without eval'ing is negligent.


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## Buggibub

Jax08 said:


> Every rescue I've ever worked with has foster homes. And not one of them would recommend euthanizing a dog without eval'ing them. Quite often the "issues" are not as the owner describes so to recommend euthanizing him without eval'ing is negligent.


Good point. Didn't even think about that. I filled their application out to do behavioral evaluations for dogs they want to bring in, and it looked like they were interested, but the lady hasn't called back since we played VM phone tag. 

Either way, it may be good to get Ruger evaluated, although I think it's more his age/environment than anything else. 


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## Buggibub

Vangie said:


> Well, my female and him got into it this weekend. He has cuts on his face. While my mom and I were looking at them, he growled and barked at her, Im sure he was just nervous, but as my husband keeps saying, I can't keep making excuses for everything he does wrong. He has never done that before. He treats her like he treats me.
> I did the connecting him to me thing, which wasn't very difficult since he follows me around everywhere anyway.
> He did really good. Other than that, that is all Ive had time for, between packing and trying to find a place to live in SA with 2 GSDs and especially an aggressive one, and having sick kids. I haven't had time to much..
> This is my schedule all the time though. I don't have time for much. What time I Do have is usually taking the kids to practice, to friends houses. To go visit family. Im the only one here usually with no help, so having time for that... yea it doesnt happen much!


How was he around your kids when you had him connected? Also, did you notice a change in his behavior while connected?


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## Vangie

Jax08 said:


> Every rescue I've ever worked with has foster homes. And not one of them would recommend euthanizing a dog without eval'ing them. Quite often the "issues" are not as the owner describes so to recommend euthanizing him without eval'ing is negligent.


Yea I was just like..... woah! They didn't even mention trying to see if another shelter would take him. THey just said what I posted. I haven't said anything back to them. Im waiting for 
Austin
Houston
DFW
Keller
Secondchancesrescue
I haven't done out of state


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## Vangie

Buggibub said:


> How was he around your kids when you had him connected? Also, did you notice a change in his behavior while connected?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Kids didn't phase him, they usually don't unless they are being their crazy selves. But with being sick they were just playing on the couch. 

He didn't seem any different than when he follows me around normally.
He didn't however try to jump all over me when I told him good boy. 
Usually that gets him overly excited and he starts going spastic. 
He needs training!!! I know he does. and yes he needs a no kid/ family


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## Buggibub

That's a good start. I'd keep up with that for the time being. 




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## Jax08

Do you have his pedigree? Not sure if that was answered in the other thread. Have you had someone look at it to see if there is genetic aggression or weak nerves?


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## Buggibub

Jax08 said:


> Do you have his pedigree? Not sure if that was answered in the other thread. Have you had someone look at it to see if there is genetic aggression or weak nerves?


BYB. Nice dad, loca mama. 


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## wolfstraum

I think so many people in rescue get burned out....fear aggression is so so so common and they must be inundated with requests for rehoming dogs...the truth is that there are just not enough homes out there and there are plenty of nice stable dogs already in need....and being euthanized every day....I actually can understand them replying this way - politically incorrect as it is....it is the hard truth...if he is fear aggressive, then he is going to be somone's problem and chances are just as good that he will end up euthanized as in a "good home"...

Sorry, I know it is not nice to think of, but this is the problem all too often with BYB dogs - they just aren't bred with any kind of conscience or knowledge and the pups and their owners end up paying the price - Personally, I would think long and hard about that rather than pass him on and always wonder if he was able to be rehabbed or passed around and eventually PTS.

Lee


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## Vangie

wolfstraum said:


> I think so many people in rescue get burned out....fear aggression is so so so common and they must be inundated with requests for rehoming dogs...the truth is that there are just not enough homes out there and there are plenty of nice stable dogs already in need....and being euthanized every day....I actually can understand them replying this way - politically incorrect as it is....it is the hard truth...if he is fear aggressive, then he is going to be somone's problem and chances are just as good that he will end up euthanized as in a "good home"...
> 
> Sorry, I know it is not nice to think of, but this is the problem all too often with BYB dogs - they just aren't bred with any kind of conscience or knowledge and the pups and their owners end up paying the price - Personally, I would think long and hard about that rather than pass him on and always wonder if he was able to be rehabbed or passed around and eventually PTS.
> 
> Lee



I just don't think I can bring myself to do that. But then I think that Im putting myself and family and others at risk that he could react at any moment. Then I think what if he doesn't do anything again(which is what I think every time he does do something). I keep giving him chances. 
Its not his fault, 
I blame myself for not putting him in training earlier in his life, which is what we had planned until life got in the way and husband got laid off.


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## Vangie

Buggibub said:


> BYB. Nice dad, loca mama.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Whats BYB?


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## wolfstraum

_Its not his fault, 
I blame myself for not putting him in training earlier in his life, which is what we had planned until life got in the way and husband got laid off._ 


BYB is "Back Yard Bred/Breeder... someone who just breeds pups without regard to pedigree, training, health clearance...someone who breeds for extra income....Someone who breeds a female who is "not nice" in your words because they have her....

Training may help control...genetics are not going to change....just be careful, as most of these types of problems escalate...I have a friend who had a male who was slightly nervy as a pup, but slowly escalated...she trained the dog initially for SAR, she was experienced...the dog did bite/try to bite a guest in her home, became more fearful as he grew up...he became a liability and he was less and less happy as he got older...as hard as it was, she put him to sleep....she still feels bad about it...but we both know she did the most responsible thing...so don't beat your self up about training more...your female had a much much much rougher start in life and her temperament is much more stable from your other thread comments.

(edit to add)

I am not saying you should run out and PTS right now....I think you need to consider his future and not rule out that it might be what you have to do eventually....only you can tell how bad he is, and whether he can be safely integrated in your life...

Lee


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## Heidigsd

Vangie: There is a trainer in your area that may be able to evaluate your boy. I think it's worth a try before you make any decisions. 

Her name is "Alison" with Top Paw Training: Top Paw Training offers professional dog training for your companion dog.

I would give her a call and explain your situation (just tell her I sent you) and see what she says. I can't imagine she would charge all that much.

Good luck!

Michaela


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## Vangie

Heidigsd said:


> Vangie: There is a trainer in your area that may be able to evaluate your boy. I think it's worth a try before you make any decisions.
> 
> Her name is "Alison" with Top Paw Training: Top Paw Training offers professional dog training for your companion dog.
> 
> I would give her a call and explain your situation (just tell her I sent you) and see what she says. I can't imagine she would charge all that much.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Michaela


Im Pretty sure that is the lady I contacted about the at home training services. I cant be totally sure, it was 6 months ago. 
My vet gave me her number. They gave me quite a few actually. LOL, they want help for Ruger as much as I do...
I think she charged around $300 for the initial visit and a hour or two of training. I will email her again though to be sure.


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## Heidigsd

Vangie said:


> Im Pretty sure that is the lady I contacted about the at home training services. I cant be totally sure, it was 6 months ago.
> My vet gave me her number. They gave me quite a few actually. LOL, they want help for Ruger as much as I do...
> I think she charged around $300 for the initial visit and a hour or two of training. I will email her again though to be sure.


Her "board and train" service is around $1800 for 4 weeks I think but that's not what I am talking about since funds are an issue for you. 

I would tell her your situation and see if she would just do an evaluation to see if you're dealing with fear aggression, etc. She also knows a lot of people and may be able to help place him if you decided to rehome. I think it's worth a try.


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## Vangie

Heidigsd said:


> Her "board and train" service is around $1800 for 4 weeks I think but that's not what I am talking about since funds are an issue for you.
> 
> I would tell her your situation and see if she would just do an evaluation to see if you're dealing with fear aggression, etc. She also knows a lot of people and may be able to help place him if you decided to rehome. I think it's worth a try.


I emailed her . Thank you!


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## Heidigsd

There is also "Dave Kroyer" in Austin, forgot all about him. Dog Training, Canine Headquarters, Austin, Texas, TX


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## Vangie

Heidigsd said:


> There is also "Dave Kroyer" in Austin, forgot all about him. Dog Training, Canine Headquarters, Austin, Texas, TX


Emailed him as well! Thank you  

I hope I can find him a good home. I hope he can be helped.


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## sitstay

> I find that odd that a rescue would recommend putting him down without evaluating him themselves. Very odd.


Not so odd when you consider that this dog has "nipped" and broken skin enough to leave a "small scratch". This behavior didn't just occur out of the blue, but has been escalating over time (charging and barking at people in stores, etc.).

It is a sad fact of life that very, very, very few rescues are in a position to take on a dog that has shown aggressive behaviors. The dog is a walking liability for them, since they can't absolutely guarantee that the dog will *always *be managed in a way that keeps everyone around him safe. Things happen in the blink of an eye. A few seconds of inattention on the part of a new owner could mean a horrible, disfiguring injury to a child who was doing nothing more than standing nearby. 

It would be wonderful if rescues could take in every dog that needs a new home, regardless of history. But that is not the reality. The reality is that there are only a certain number of homes available, and there are lots and lots of other dogs that also deserve a second chance that have never acted aggressively. 

I have seen a fair number of dogs who were surrendered to an open admission shelter for aggression, and they ended up being euthanized. They spent hours or days in a stressful kennel environment, surrounded by strangers. They were never made available for adoption. They were warehoused until someone could get around to euthanizing them. Compared to that fate, giving an owned dog a wonderful snack from the McDonald's drive-thru and then a compassionate, humane death with a familiar person there to sooth and comfort is the best, most responsible option.
Sheilah


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## Vangie

sit said:


> Not so odd when you consider that this dog has "nipped" and broken skin enough to leave a "small scratch". This behavior didn't just occur out of the blue, but has been escalating over time (charging and barking at people in stores, etc.).
> 
> It is a sad fact of life that very, very, very few rescues are in a position to take on a dog that has shown aggressive behaviors. The dog is a walking liability for them, since they can't absolutely guarantee that the dog will *always *be managed in a way that keeps everyone around him safe. Things happen in the blink of an eye. A few seconds of inattention on the part of a new owner could mean a horrible, disfiguring injury to a child who was doing nothing more than standing nearby.
> 
> It would be wonderful if rescues could take in every dog that needs a new home, regardless of history. But that is not the reality. The reality is that there are only a certain number of homes available, and there are lots and lots of other dogs that also deserve a second chance that have never acted aggressively.
> 
> I have seen a fair number of dogs who were surrendered to an open admission shelter for aggression, and they ended up being euthanized. They spent hours or days in a stressful kennel environment, surrounded by strangers. They were never made available for adoption. They were warehoused until someone could get around to euthanizing them. Compared to that fate, giving an owned dog a wonderful snack from the McDonald's drive-thru and then a compassionate, humane death with a familiar person there to sooth and comfort is the best, most responsible option.
> Sheilah


And I completely agree with you! I was reading what the rescues " Owner Surrenders" guidelines are. I agree there are to many dogs out there that need a home that don't have his problems. That someone else doesn't need my problem either. Its not fair to me or them. 

I keep telling myself, Im just going to work with him. Then I have this loud voice in my head saying " BUT WHAT IF".. 
Then I tell myself, well it hasn't happened again... then again... its only been maybe 3-4 weeks since the last incident(not counting the one with my mom just this weekend). 
I agree he is a ticking time bomb and you never know when or why he will react... and who it will be with. 


My brother just put his Pit down for the some of the same reasons though.


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## huntergreen

Jax08 said:


> I find that odd that a rescue would recommend putting him down without evaluating him themselves. Very odd. There are at least two Houston Rescues. Which one did you contact?


near me that is a common solution stock answer from rescues. these are all breed rescues though.


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## sitstay

Vangie said:


> I keep telling myself, Im just going to work with him. Then I have this loud voice in my head saying " BUT WHAT IF"..


There is no way to guarantee that something won't ever happen. Not with this dog, and not with any other dog you could bring into the home.

The best you can do is work on the issue. Not think about doing it, or plan on doing it. You just have to bite the bullet and do it. Find a really good trainer and pay for their help. And follow through every day. 

Otherwise, without some action from you, everyone is just kind of circling around waiting for the next incident to happen. Going around and around in your thinking about your options, but never taking any concrete action to do anything to change the current dynamic, is setting the dog up to fail. And that isn't fair to the dog.
Sheilah


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## Vangie

Heidigsd said:


> There is also "Dave Kroyer" in Austin, forgot all about him. Dog Training, Canine Headquarters, Austin, Texas, TX




Heidigsd
Both of the trainers have told me to put him down. Here is what Allison sent me::: 
Yes, he is a dangerous dog and needs very high maintenance management and to be kept away from all strangers- but since the aggression is against your own family as well, I would consider this a genetic temperament issue that training would not even make a dent towards true safety. A rescue would not rehome this dog and would euthanize it since it would fail a simple temperament test. Free yourself from the guilt and fear: just have him put down before he hurts someone badly. That IS the next step for this dog. Not many folks will tell you these truths, but its hard to swallow. No amount of training or $ will fix bad genetics. Not all dogs make good pets. Please let me know how I can help.


Im in tears. Im so frustrated with this. I know its what I need to do. I keep telling myself... I will do it next time he growls.. but what if its not a ****ing growl!!! UUUGGGHHHHH!!!! I just want to go punch people that breed dogs for money and not love!! I want to punch myself for taking him when I had this bad thought in my head!!


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## OriginalWacky

Vangie said:


> Heidigsd
> Im in tears. Im so frustrated with this. I know its what I need to do. I keep telling myself... I will do it next time he growls.. but what if its not a ****ing growl!!! UUUGGGHHHHH!!!! I just want to go punch people that breed dogs for money and not love!! I want to punch myself for taking him when I had this bad thought in my head!!


Don't punch yourself, you cannot change the past. However, you can make sure the future is better. Keep in mind that this dog is almost certainly miserable if he is having these issues. Imagine living with that in your head, and not even knowing enough to know how to change it. The very kindest gift you can give him is to love him to the end, and free him from his doggy demons.

I KNOW it's hard. I went through many of the same things, thoughts, and guilt you are feeling when I had to do this very thing. However, the difference that I have is that somebody DID get bitten... me. Sadly, she wasn't even trying to bite me, and would never have hurt me otherwise. But there was simply no way I could keep taking risks with her, and I did my best to spoil her rotten and love her deeply and now I can generally look back with less hurt and more knowledge that I did the right thing.


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## llombardo

This dog could have seriously hurt the kid IF he wanted to. He had enough control not to, that counts for something. My good friend has a boxer that did the same thing to her son. It happened once, the dog was startled. The dog and the boy are best friends. My point is that this dog is young and needs training. He does not need to be put to sleep. Someone said release him from his demons, if he was aggressive he would bite and go after the kids day or night..this is not the case. A good home needs to be found for him, someone that can take the time to train him and be a leader. Just because he does this stuff in this home does not mean he will do it in another home, that is a fact. My male GSD is a handful and was given up because of that, but he is thriving in my household and has calmed down nicely. My oldest female(non gsd) was returned to the shelter 3 or 4 times before I got her and she has also done well in my home. There is no way that anyone can say to put this dog to sleep without evaluating him...that my friends is VERY permanent.


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## Magwart

Before you make any decisions whatsoever, I'd suggest a new health work up including a full thyroid panel--just to be _very _sure there's not an underlying medical issue triggering this change in behavior. 

Please take a look at this thread, if you haven't already:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...86315-medical-causes-aggressive-behavior.html


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## llombardo

Magwart said:


> Before you make any decisions whatsoever, I'd suggest a new health work up including a full thyroid panel--just to be _very _sure there's not an underlying medical issue triggering this change in behavior.
> 
> Please take a look at this thread, if you haven't already:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...86315-medical-causes-aggressive-behavior.html


:thumbup:


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## OriginalWacky

Magwart said:


> Before you make any decisions whatsoever, I'd suggest a new health work up including a full thyroid panel--just to be _very _sure there's not an underlying medical issue triggering this change in behavior.
> 
> Please take a look at this thread, if you haven't already:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...86315-medical-causes-aggressive-behavior.html


Ya know, this is definitely a good idea. I'd even go so far as to say you should send the results of the bloodwork to Dr. Dodds at Home who specializes in thyroid stuff. 

If your finances can allow, a veterinary behaviorist is also an option, and one I threw a lot of money at before my decision. I feel it was worth it though, as it made my decision a bit easier to go with, since I KNEW this was not something that medication could help, and I couldn't pass the problem onto anybody else. However, if you cannot afford that, and do choose to euth, please don't let that make you feel bad. 

Ultimately, you have to decide this for yourself, as we truly can't diagnose it over the internet for you. But if you should decide to take the final step, just know that you are doing the right thing to the best of your knowledge, and with love.


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## Vangie

OriginalWacky said:


> Ya know, this is definitely a good idea. I'd even go so far as to say you should send the results of the bloodwork to Dr. Dodds at Home who specializes in thyroid stuff.
> 
> If your finances can allow, a veterinary behaviorist is also an option, and one I threw a lot of money at before my decision. I feel it was worth it though, as it made my decision a bit easier to go with, since I KNEW this was not something that medication could help, and I couldn't pass the problem onto anybody else. However, if you cannot afford that, and do choose to euth, please don't let that make you feel bad.
> 
> Ultimately, you have to decide this for yourself, as we truly can't diagnose it over the internet for you. But if you should decide to take the final step, just know that you are doing the right thing to the best of your knowledge, and with love.


Right now, we have no extra money for anything. I cant put him down even if I had to. 

We are in the middle of a financial mess. I am in the middle of moving. I will not have funds to do anything for a few months. The most I can give my dogs are food, I cant even do the vet right now, and they are both due for shots.

SO for now, I will just keep him out back or in his kennel. I can't worry about my kids safety at this point and from what every trainer and vet and rescue is telling me is to put him down before it escalates. I just look at all the good things and the few bad things he's done.


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## Jax08

Before you isolate this dog, and potentially make this aggression worse due to frustration, please talk to your vet and explain your situation. In your other thread you stated the vet used to show German Shepherds. Maybe the vet has alternatives for you and can work with you.


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## Heidigsd

Vangie said:


> Heidigsd
> Both of the trainers have told me to put him down. Here is what Allison sent me:::
> Yes, he is a dangerous dog and needs very high maintenance management and to be kept away from all strangers- but since the aggression is against your own family as well, I would consider this a genetic temperament issue that training would not even make a dent towards true safety. A rescue would not rehome this dog and would euthanize it since it would fail a simple temperament test. Free yourself from the guilt and fear: just have him put down before he hurts someone badly. That IS the next step for this dog. Not many folks will tell you these truths, but its hard to swallow. No amount of training or $ will fix bad genetics. Not all dogs make good pets. Please let me know how I can help.


I must say that I am not impressed with that response, since they never even seen him


----------



## Heidigsd

llombardo said:


> This dog could have seriously hurt the kid IF he wanted to. He had enough control not to, that counts for something. My good friend has a boxer that did the same thing to her son. It happened once, the dog was startled. The dog and the boy are best friends. My point is that this dog is young and needs training. He does not need to be put to sleep. Someone said release him from his demons, if he was aggressive he would bite and go after the kids day or night..this is not the case. A good home needs to be found for him, someone that can take the time to train him and be a leader. Just because he does this stuff in this home does not mean he will do it in another home, that is a fact. My male GSD is a handful and was given up because of that, but he is thriving in my household and has calmed down nicely. My oldest female(non gsd) was returned to the shelter 3 or 4 times before I got her and she has also done well in my home. There is no way that anyone can say to put this dog to sleep without evaluating him...that my friends is VERY permanent.


I agree with this. I feel that this dog just needs to find a more experienced owner (no offense) that can work with him and give him a chance.


----------



## Vangie

Heidigsd said:


> I agree with this. I feel that this dog just needs to find a more experienced owner (no offense) that can work with him and give him a chance.


No offense taken, thats what he needs. Some one that has the time, experience and $ to help him. I don't have it. As much as I wish I did. 

Like every rescue and vet and trainer Ive talked to, a rescue will not take him, so its up to an individual to help me/him.


----------



## Vangie

Heidigsd said:


> I must say that I am not impressed with that response, since they never even seen him


Here is her second response after i told her multiple people have told me to put him down: 


I'm so sorry to hear. I know its hard. My parents had to do this when I was a child. We had a dog that tried to bite me a couple of times and they decided that this, and ant dog, that tried to bite a child was not worth the risk. Environments are too hard to control and kids will break any rule, or comfort zone- innocently- and may get bitten. Dogs are a gift and companion, but not a priority over the safety of a child or other person.
If you wish to have your dog put to sleep for the dangerous behaviors he routinely exhibits, call your vet and explain your concerns and how you've spoken to several professional about your options and that you feel the only safe choice is to remove the threat of danger with euthanasia. You can usually drop the dog off with the front office and they will take necessary precautions to protect themselves during his handling and the medicine they inject causes the dog to go to sleep, no pain, then quick death. You say goodbyes and apologize for what you must do and hope that he has peace. Explain to the children that the dog was poorly behaved and unable to live in your home anymore. (As a side note, I know of two dogs that had difficult aggression cases and were out down and the vet discovered brain tumors afterwards. I wonder if there's a connection.) 
You have another wonderful family dog to enjoy and children move on so quick, as they too would agree the dog's aggression is scary and unacceptable.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Be brave and do the tough, but right thing.



----- He doesn't "routinely exhibit" , they are just things that happen here .. which yes Makes it even more scary.


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## Jax08

Vangie said:


> (quote from trainer)
> (As a side note, I know of two dogs that had difficult aggression cases and were out down and the vet discovered brain tumors afterwards. I wonder if there's a connection.)


Really? She wonders if there is a connection? LOL OF COURSE there is a connection. Many medical conditions can cause aggression. However, I doubt that is the case for your dog as he started showing fear aggression at the age of 4 months.

Has he shown aggression at all to your children? Or only the niece that is a stranger to him? Not trying to brush off that incident but do want to know if he's shown aggression to any person that actually lives in the house.

I have a HA dog. We have been able to isolate her and she is now almost 14 yrs old. The difference is she loved ALL children, especially hers. It was adults she had to be watched around. I don't think hers is genetic aggression but rather due to a specific trauma. We also have a dog who is genetically not wired correctly.

These dogs can be managed but it does take a strictly controlled environment.

Please call and talk to your vet. Explain your financial situation. Your vet may have some plausible options for you.


----------



## Vangie

Jax08 said:


> Really? She wonders if there is a connection? LOL OF COURSE there is a connection. Many medical conditions can cause aggression. However, I doubt that is the case for your dog as he started showing fear aggression at the age of 4 months.
> 
> Has he shown aggression at all to your children? Or only the niece that is a stranger to him? Not trying to brush off that incident but do want to know if he's shown aggression to any person that actually lives in the house.
> 
> I have a HA dog. We have been able to isolate her and she is now almost 14 yrs old. The difference is she loved ALL children, especially hers. It was adults she had to be watched around. I don't think hers is genetic aggression but rather due to a specific trauma. We also have a dog who is genetically not wired correctly.
> 
> These dogs can be managed but it does take a strictly controlled environment.
> 
> Please call and talk to your vet. Explain your financial situation. Your vet may have some plausible options for you.




My kids, and husband. 
Kids in costumes... kids playing with lightsabers, kids running and playing tag. He doesn't like it. 
Husband, when me and Ruger were sitting on the porch and he came walking up, evening time, sun was still out, wasnt dark out. And once or twice in the house when he came into the bedroom and once in the hallway. 
Never to me though.
Never to my mom either till this weekend. All she was doing was looking at him too. 


All my vet did was give me numbers to trainers. I don't go to the vet where the lady use to show GSD's. That was were we lived last year, when he was a puppy.


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## OriginalWacky

Vangie said:


> My kids, and husband.
> Kids in costumes... kids playing with lightsabers, kids running and playing tag. He doesn't like it.
> Husband, when me and Ruger were sitting on the porch and he came walking up, evening time, sun was still out, wasnt dark out. And once or twice in the house when he came into the bedroom and once in the hallway.
> Never to me though.
> Never to my mom either till this weekend. All she was doing was looking at him too.
> 
> 
> All my vet did was give me numbers to trainers. I don't go to the vet where the lady use to show GSD's. That was were we lived last year, when he was a puppy.


I so much wish that I were in any kind of situation to help, but as you may have seen in my thread, I'm looking for a foster, and what may wind up to be an adopter for my own boy and rest of my critters. 

For now, since you aren't in a position to do anything financially, I'd put him on lockdown in the sense that he is either tethered to you and you're working mental games with him whenever you can to keep his brain occupied (teach him tricks, wear him out with thinking about that), or away from others so that he doesn't have the chance to aggress any more at all. If there is any way you can get a basket muzzle, that would help as well, so that he doesn't get the chance to bite, but you still need to keep him away from any chances to bite even with that, as a muzzle punch can hurt too.

Keep in mind that I'm not an expert by any means, just somebody who has had somewhat similar issues in the past.


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## Vangie

OriginalWacky said:


> I so much wish that I were in any kind of situation to help, but as you may have seen in my thread, I'm looking for a foster, and what may wind up to be an adopter for my own boy and rest of my critters.
> 
> For now, since you aren't in a position to do anything financially, I'd put him on lockdown in the sense that he is either tethered to you and you're working mental games with him whenever you can to keep his brain occupied (teach him tricks, wear him out with thinking about that), or away from others so that he doesn't have the chance to aggress any more at all. If there is any way you can get a basket muzzle, that would help as well, so that he doesn't get the chance to bite, but you still need to keep him away from any chances to bite even with that, as a muzzle punch can hurt too.
> 
> Keep in mind that I'm not an expert by any means, just somebody who has had somewhat similar issues in the past.



I wish I could help you as well! Looks like were both going through a lot right now. Its not fun. Your boy is soooo beautiful! I hope you all the best with all your fur babies. I think everyone is tight on money. Its just so tough right now. 

The dave trainer(well some lady named karen) emailed me back again. Its $425 a week for behavior modification, Could take up to 4 weeks to see a good progress... maybe longer. I won't have that for awhile. For a few months at the least. He does not recommend a group training either since Ruger does not like other dogs or humans. At least not at first. 

Im at a loss.    

I have my 2 cats plus a mama cat and 2 babies outside. Ive been trying to catch her to take her to the low cost spay clinic but she's a fast one and pretty smart too! 

Right now, Im kid free for the week packing up and getting the house ready. So Ive been playing with him as much as I can. He loves playing fetch! AND I MEAN LOVES PLAYING FETCH!. He can do it for hours!! I wake up to find tennis balls in the bed with me! Him and my female are not getting along for some reason which is making things so much more hectic. She got him above his left eye and his nose the other day as I told everyone. 

My husband has been working so much lately so he is no help. When he is home, his time goes to the kids anyways. Star wars and legos all day! 

This thread is my last chance to find Ruger a home. It doesn't look like its going to happen. Rescues are going to work with me. Not even by posting him while I keep him. Which I totally understand that there are nonaggressive dogs that need homes just as badly.


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## OriginalWacky

OMG Koshka is a fetch maniac too. He'll turn down steak to chase the ball! Hang in there, and hopefully something will break loose one way or the other. If by chance something miraculous happens and I wind up in a place where I can take my animals back and add one, I'd totally take Ruger. I'm quite used to crate and rotate, pretty comfortable even with bitey dogs, and alone, so I wouldn't have to worry about his interactions with others. But, the chances of that are darn slim. But really, if you truly think he should stay alive, then there is hope, and it might be worth it to give him more time while you look into every option you can find. I just want to offer up support if you do wind up with the euth option to know that you truly did everything you could. Like I said, just take every precaution you can to make sure there is no chance for him to bite, and don't fool yourself into thinking that it might be safe even if he doesn't do anything for a while, etc.


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## Twyla

I have no idea if these links will be of any help since they are mainly for emergency vet treatment. May be worth a shot in case they have other resources they can refer you to. 

Having Trouble Affording Veterinary Care? : The Humane Society of the United States

AFRP Financial Assistance for Pets

Saving More Lives Together : Asheville Humane Society

ANIMAL ASSISTANCE LEAGUE OF ORANGE COUNTY

FAQ | ASPCA

Speaking for Spot: Dog Health Care Tips & Veterinary Advice | Financial Assistance for Veterinary Care

Find financial assistance with veterinary care | RedRover

Vet Bills: Organizations Offering Financial Help | Truth4Dogs

http://www.voicesforanimals.org/links/vetassistance.php


This is a LONG SHOT idea, especially with your time crunch. Very occasionally, there are some trainers who will barter out training. I know of a couple here that has done it in extenuating circumstances.


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## Jax08

> Its $425 a week for behavior modification,


THAT is a rip off. 

Please look for SchH clubs who can recommend good trainers to you. Please.


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## Buggibub

Jax08 said:


> THAT is a rip off.
> 
> Please look for SchH clubs who can recommend good trainers to you. Please.


I tend to agree. 

Vangie, you're moving to DFW area, right? There're a lot of ScH people/GSD people up there. 


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## Heidigsd

There is also a SchH club in San Antonio but I don't know anything about them: http://sanantonioschutzhundclub.com/

(There is also a Mondioring club in Bulverde, stay far away from them )


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## wolfstraum

I believe that the trainer contacted is a professional and makes his living training dogs....no one works for free at their job....it is very very very unfortunate for Vangie and Ruger that her circumstances are tight right now...but really, that pricing is in line from what I know of similar trainers

Lee


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## crackem

Jax08 said:


> THAT is a rip off.
> 
> Please look for SchH clubs who can recommend good trainers to you. Please.


You're telling someone that it's a rip off to go to one of THE BEST in the IPO world, and telling them to go to a different IPO person instead to get a recommendation?

I'm sorry, but if you have money to spend and are serious about fixing an issue, you'd be a fool not to seek out someone of Dave's expertise.


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## Buggibub

crackem said:


> You're telling someone that it's a rip off to go to one of THE BEST in the IPO world, and telling them to go to a different IPO person instead to get a recommendation?
> 
> I'm sorry, but if you have money to spend and are serious about fixing an issue, you'd be a fool not to seek out someone of Dave's expertise.


It all depends. She said $425/week. If that's one visit per week, then I could see how that's steep. 

Money is a factor here. One trainer said approximately $1800 for 4 week T&B services. 

The dog doesn't need SchH work. Right now she just needs to be able to figure out if the dog would even benefit from training to the point that he would be able to be trusted or if it is more suitable and humane to PTS. 


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## Buggibub

Dave's site indicates that they do accept some dogs that they essentially would rehabilitate if they are deemed adoptable. Vangie, it could be worth seeing if he would pro bono your case to evaluate Ruger. 


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## wolfstraum

I assumed that it was board and train....and no, he does not need schutzhund training, and most clubs will not work with a fear aggressive dog in protection....they might recommend a trainer - ie professional - and would be probably be the same one!

Lee


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## Jax08

No, he does not and should not have SchH training. Nor did I suggest that.

What he needs is an outside, unbiased, person that knows the breed to evaluate him and see if he is indeed a dangerous dog. I don't know "Dave" from Adam and don't really care. What I am suggesting is finding a person to evaluate this dog and possibly, if this dog can be saved, to teach the owner the tools to modify the behavior for a reasonable price since the OP does NOT have the money.


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## Buggibub

wolfstraum said:


> I assumed that it was board and train....and no, he does not need schutzhund training, and most clubs will not work with a fear aggressive dog in protection....they might recommend a trainer - ie professional - and would be probably be the same one!
> 
> Lee


$425 for B&T- sign me up!!  


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## Buggibub

In the meantime, Vangie, you could still try for the Schrodi scholarship- or look to see if any training facilities where you are moving may offer a scholarship. 

Look for someone who has CPDTKA in their training title. I'm not one, but if I did it would be Buggibub- CPDTKA. 




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## crackem

I didn't either, you told him/her to go to an IPO club to get trainer recommendations. There's a reason Dave is one of the best in IPO and mondio and has multiple world teams under his belt, because he knows dogs, period. I've had the pleasure of working with him a 

If you don't know Dave from Adam, then maybe you shouldn't be telling people going to see him at a 425 price is a rip off and telling them to go see an IPO club to get trainer recommendations. 

You're not going to find someone more capable of evaluating a dog than Dave.


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## wolfstraum

LOL It was $425 a week - so $1700 monthly....for $425 a month, I'd send down Komet for his IPO title instead of trying to gimp my way around a track or ob work!

Lee


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## Jax08

crackem said:


> I didn't either, you told him/her to go to an IPO club to get trainer recommendations. There's a reason Dave is one of the best in IPO and mondio and has multiple world teams under his belt, because he knows dogs, period. I've had the pleasure of working with him a
> 
> If you don't know Dave from Adam, then maybe you shouldn't be telling people going to see him at a 425 price is a rip off and telling them to go see an IPO club to get trainer recommendations.
> 
> You're not going to find someone more capable of evaluating a dog than Dave.



You are absolutely correct. Have at this thread. You obviously are the expert in all things.


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## crackem

Jax08 said:


> You are absolutely correct. Have at this thread. You obviously are the expert in all things.


Finally, somebody who recognizes greatness


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## GSDElsa

I can't add much but to say I am pretty disgusted with trainers recommending putting a dog down they've never seen.


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## Vangie

Dave does look awesome! He does a lot of different things with dogs. It wasnt him that I got to talk to though. From what I understand I probably won't get to unless I drop some money down. WHICH I DO NOT HAVE!! All Karen said was "Angela, the only thing we could offer is training services (most likely a board and train program). Karen "
Maybe Dave would work with him... I wish he would. I would let him take him in a heartbeat if he could turn him around and give him an awesome life! 



I wish I did!! $425 a week for board and train is awesome! Especially here in Austin/ SA.. One lady wanted $300 for a 3 hour access and to tell me a few things!

I may be moving to the DFW area. If I can find a reasonably priced place here in SA that will let me have 2 GSD's then I am staying here so my kids can see there dad more than 5 days a month. If I cannot find a place then yes, we are moving to the DFW area till I can find a place because the people we are currently renting from are selling the house. Right now we hardly have the money for a deposit on a house, a $500 a piece dog deposit(which is usually what it is if I can even find someone to accept them since they have this whole insurance thing at most realty offices) is kicking my ass too! 

I can't even find someone to evaluate without a fee! Even Dave charges(i think thats what I read I think anyways). My vet is the only one to have any kind of evaluation, and they gave me all the listings and numbers to all the obedience/behavior specialists in and near SA.


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## Vangie

OriginalWacky said:


> OMG Koshka is a fetch maniac too. He'll turn down steak to chase the ball! Hang in there, and hopefully something will break loose one way or the other. If by chance something miraculous happens and I wind up in a place where I can take my animals back and add one, I'd totally take Ruger. I'm quite used to crate and rotate, pretty comfortable even with bitey dogs, and alone, so I wouldn't have to worry about his interactions with others. But, the chances of that are darn slim. But really, if you truly think he should stay alive, then there is hope, and it might be worth it to give him more time while you look into every option you can find. I just want to offer up support if you do wind up with the euth option to know that you truly did everything you could. Like I said, just take every precaution you can to make sure there is no chance for him to bite, and don't fool yourself into thinking that it might be safe even if he doesn't do anything for a while, etc.


RUger will fetch over food any day too! He loves it!!!!!! 
Klina my female loves to swim, she dont care what it is, if its wet, shes going in! 
Hes staying with me for now. Unless something else happens. I am going to do the rotate. We have a friend in town right now for a few days. I think he can be managed. Especially in a home without kids. I just don't trust him with kids. I do with mine more than others, but I still have a fear with mine and always will.


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## The Packman

I'd love to have Ruger. I live near Chattanooga and if I could get help with a transport close to me, I'd be first in line. I have been looking for awhile now for a GSD or MAL that is being rehome for reasons of aggression. 

I have 2+ acres and a (apx) 50 X 50 fenced in yard. Elly May is walked two times a day and I play with her (outside) every night. I have had Elly to obedience classes and level 1 protection. I feed her nothing but premium dog food and have her on Multi-Advantage. She's a part of the family and well taken care of.



For those who haven't heard my story yet on why I need a aggressive K-9: I live in the sticks of East Tennessee (the meth capital of the state, maybe the country) and because of a improper subdivision of land, I share the same address with a house that is 200 yards down a dirt road that borders my property. I live on the main road and the other house can not be seen from there.

Since we have bought our house, I have had countless strangers come to my door looking for my neighbors...the prelude to a burglary or home invasion. Despite 4 KEEP OUT and 2 Beware of Dogs signs along my 250+ ft driveway, they still come. Because of this, I hate going any where and leaving my GF alone. Elly May is a good dog but I am not sure what would happen, if she ever really had to _put the hammer down..._without me there.

It should also be noted: My ex-neighbor was once discharging a fire arm with the sole intent of harassing me. So instead of confronting him, I called 911 and it took the Sheriffs Dept. almost a half hour to send one Officer to my house. 

I learned a valuable lesson that day and that's why I"d love to have a GSD or MAL that only my GF and I would be safe around, as a first line of defense.


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## Buggibub

Packman/Vangie- If Vangie can get him to Dallas or Texarkana, we can use the section of the forum full of ppl who can help spread the drive out to help get him to you 


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## clearcreekranch

I have experience with Dave Kroyer(and would recommend him if the funds were available to you). I have a dog that has a low threshold for defense and have learned a lot over the last 3 1/2 years. I agree that this dog needs to be rehomed to a home with no children and someone with the resources to put a strong obedience on him as well as give him an outlet for his energy. I live South of I-30 in Sulphur Springs, Texas which is half-way from Dallas to Texarkana. I could possibly offer a kennel for a day or so if a transport could bring here and pickup.


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## Vangie

Hi Packman, 
I know Im at then "end of my rope" with Ruger, however he is my baby and I do care for him, this is why I haven't listened to anyone about putting him down. I think he can be managed. I take it you don"t have kids?
I don't want him harming kids, or really anyone for that matter unless deserved. He is neutered. Not chipped. He is 2 months late on shots, because I have not had the money. He needs his yearly rabies and heart worm and I think boosters. I can call tomorrow. 
He is finicky with people however, when it comes to other dogs, bigger than him. He is quite the coward. For instance, at the house I may have to live at near my dads, their dog run is on the side that borders my neighbors. There is a chain link fence as separation. They have 4 pit bulls and a huge great dane. They will come over here and there to bother my dogs. Klina my female will jump, bark and growl and attack through the fence... Ruger hides in a corner. 
He has went after my neighbors little over weight Chihuahua though and my aunts yorkie. Both small dogs, but my mom has 4 poms and a pit bull. He has been around them since he was a puppy and is fine with them. 

He needs quite a bit of work. I know I would be nervous taking a dog that does have issues. So I'm just wondering how your going to handle it? I really want a good home for him. He needs it and I need it. 

It would be awesome if we could find a way to get him to you! I can do Sulphur Springs. Im in the DFW area quite a bit. Now we just have to figure out the rest of the route. 



I am calling Dave also tomorrow on the thing you mentioned Buggibub.


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## The Packman

EDITED TO ADD: Vangie I just saw you post after, I made my post. Another BTW: Elly May is fixed and I can also provided references.



Buggibub said:


> Packman/Vangie- If Vangie can get him to Dallas or Texarkana, we can use the section of the forum full of ppl who can help spread the drive out to help get him to you.


Bug and clearcreek...thanks for the offer. It be great if we, as GSD experanced owners could adopt Ruger.

A few by the ways: first...I'm 57 years old and there are no children at our home. Second: I've al ready made arrangements with a professional dog trainer (who is a member of Service Dogs of America Club) to help me with the transition in the event I have the opportunity to adopt a aggressive K-9.

Last but no least: pretty soon thru the grace of God, I will have 17 years sobriety. I tell that to anyone I can ! (Because I use to be one wild Philly dude, fueled by drugs and alcohol...now I own a home and volunteer at the local SR Citizen Center)


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## Vangie

The Packman said:


> Bug and clearcreek...thanks for the offer. It be great if we, as GSD experanced owners could adopt Ruger.
> 
> A few by the ways: first...I'm 57 years old and there are no children at our home. Second: I've al ready made arrangements with a professional dog trainer (who is a member of Service Dogs of America Club) to help me with the transition in the event I have the opportunity to adopt a aggressive K-9.
> 
> Last but no least: pretty soon thru the grace of God, I will have 17 years sobriety. I tell that to anyone I can ! (Because I use to be one wild Philly dude, fueled by drugs and alcohol...now I own a home and volunteer at the local SR Citizen Center)


First and foremost congrats on your sobriety!! Im just got through my first year totally alcohol free!! 3 years in october since I quit smoking(its a big deal for my family-every grandparent I have has died from smoking, my mom has emphysema now, my dad has COPD). 
SO a BIG congrats to you .

I like the trainer, I think you both will need it. 

I guess what we need to do now, is find a way to make this possible. Any pointers anyone? Im new to this forum I dont know what Im looking for or what I need to do.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Me too! 

I understand that it may come to that hard choice in the end but sheesh, we are talking about an eval here, not the actual training? 





GSDElsa said:


> I can't add much but to say I am pretty disgusted with trainers recommending putting a dog down they've never seen.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Vangie, just caught up on all the posts on this, was also following your other thread too.

I just want to commend you for not giving up, being responsible (kid's safety does come first) but also being fair to Ruger.

I am keeping my fingers crossed for Ruger/Packman and you and your family.


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## Vangie

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Vangie, just caught up on all the posts on this, was also following your other thread too.
> 
> I just want to commend you for not giving up, being responsible (kid's safety does come first) but also being fair to Ruger.
> 
> I am keeping my fingers crossed for Ruger/Packman and you and your family.


Thank you Gwenhwyfair :hug: Hopefully we can get him settled somewhere, were he's happy.


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## Vangie

Buggibub said:


> Dave's site indicates that they do accept some dogs that they essentially would rehabilitate if they are deemed adoptable. Vangie, it could be worth seeing if he would pro bono your case to evaluate Ruger.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


They do charge an eval. fee. Karen is very short and to the point. So no pro bono, or help for that matter.


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## Loneforce

The Packman sounds perfect for Ruger I hope it works out for you guys!


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## Buggibub

I'm on the iPhone app, otherwise I'd link you, but in the rescue section there is a list of ppl who are in different regions willing to drive. 




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## Buggibub

I could get him up close to or almost Dallas weekend after Labor Day from Austin, but if this needs to happen sooner, just put a post up as a new thread. 


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## Vangie

Well he disappeared. Back to square 1 I guess. Thank you everyone for all the help. I'm calling a guy today that May take him and train him then afopt him out. Also going to try and talk to Dave on the phone. 

Last night we let Ruger out. He played with Josh (our friend from out of town, he knows him) for awhile and loved on him. Then we went into the bedroom. I was letting him stay in there for a bit till we went to sleep since he had been outside all day. My husband went to get some water and ruger went into the hall and seen Josh sitting and started barking and growling for no reason. He was just sitting and they had just got done playing together. 
It's so weird. 

It wasn't as bad as his normal I don't know who the **** you are growth and bark and he didn't run after him. Just Weird

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## Twyla

Vangie said:


> Last night we let Ruger out. He played with Josh (our friend from out of town, he knows him) for awhile and loved on him. Then we went into the bedroom. I was letting him stay in there for a bit till we went to sleep since he had been outside all day. My husband went to get some water and ruger went into the hall and seen Josh sitting and started barking and growling for no reason. He was just sitting and they had just got done playing together.
> It's so weird.
> 
> It wasn't as bad as his normal I don't know who the **** you are growth and bark and he didn't run after him. Just Weird
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Some things to think about - When he barked at husband, was the hall light behind husband creating a silhouette? Was husband carrying a glass, possibly making him appear different size (arm raised, out to side maybe) or possibly wearing a bath robe when he normally doesn't or just the opposite?

At times it is the small details that can give real clues as to what is going on in a dog's head.


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## Heidigsd

> Last night we let Ruger out. He played with Josh (our friend from out of town, he knows him) for awhile and loved on him. Then we went into the bedroom. I was letting him stay in there for a bit till we went to sleep since he had been outside all day. My husband went to get some water and ruger went into the hall and seen Josh sitting and started barking and growling for no reason. He was just sitting and they had just got done playing together.
> It's so weird.


I wonder if he has a problem with his eyesight? What happens if you start talking to him when he acts like this, does his attitude change?


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## Buggibub

I was thinking that. Buggi is 8 and has bad eyesight at night and barks/hackles up at anything that he deems "unfamiliar"


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## Buggibub

Heidigsd said:


> I wonder if he has a problem with his eyesight? What happens if you start talking to him when he acts like this, does his attitude change?


But Ruger is doing this behavior day and night. And he is fetching with no issues. It probably isn't the eyes. 


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## Vangie

Yea I don't think it's his eyes. He can catch a ball, stick, frisbie in mid air. When he barked at husband and Josh, lights were on or it was light outside. 


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## Heidigsd

My first GSD had eye problems (she was born with it) and she seemed to see just fine but had issues with shadows, etc. That's what mad me wonder about Ruger.


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## Buggibub

Vangie-

Keep your head up. It's looking like now you have OPTIONS! Good ones, too. 




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## Vangie

heidigsd said:


> my first gsd had eye problems (she was born with it) and she seemed to see just fine but had issues with shadows, etc. That's what mad me wonder about ruger.


hhhmmmmmm.........


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## lalachka

Correct me if I'm wrong (and it seems like this is off the table now anyway, but for the sake of argument) but this dog wouldn't be a good fit for Packman. 

Wasn't he looking for some kind of a protection dog for his property? Ruger is not only fear aggressive but he's also aggressive towards his handlers. Don't the protection dogs have to have a stable temperament? Besides, it seems like Ruger has fear issues, so wouldn't he flee if in confrontation if he had the chance?
IMO he needs lots of work to get him to be manageable and even then he might not have the temperament to be trained for any kind of protection (though I know that personal protection differs from property protection). 

Just seems like the wrong dog for the problem but no one else mentioned it so I'm sorry if I misread something. 


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## Jax08

lalachka said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (and it seems like this is off the table now anyway, but for the sake of argument) but this dog wouldn't be a good fit for Packman.
> 
> Wasn't he looking for some kind of a protection dog for his property? Ruger is not only fear aggressive but he's also aggressive towards his handlers. Don't the protection dogs have to have a stable temperament? Besides, it seems like Ruger has fear issues, so wouldn't he flee if in confrontation if he had the chance?
> IMO he needs lots of work to get him to be manageable and even then he might not have the temperament to be trained for any kind of protection (though I know that personal protection differs from property protection).
> 
> Just seems like the wrong dog for the problem but no one else mentioned it so I'm sorry if I misread something.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Exactly my thoughts as well. Fear aggression does not make a good "guard" dog. It's a whole different ball game.


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## Buggibub

Jax08 said:


> Exactly my thoughts as well. Fear aggression does not make a good "guard" dog. It's a whole different ball game.


I think he would be more of an intimidation factor given a GSD's connotations to the casual Joe Schmo who doesn't know crap about the breed. 

I think Ruger would benefit considerably with a male handler (no offense to all my super capable lady handler friends) in an environment Packman is offering. My only concern is that if Ruger had too much space to roam, he would disregard any sort of structure. Period. He's a dog with the behavior that would be best suited with some limited crate time daily to help him unwind. 


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## Jax08

Buggibub said:


> I think he would be more of an intimidation factor given a GSD's connotations to the casual Joe Schmo who doesn't know crap about the breed.


No. He's a liability. He will only gain confidence in his fear aggression every time he scares a person off. Putting him in this situation is not doing this dog any favors. It makes no difference whether the handler is male or female. I have fear aggressive dogs. Been there, done that.


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## Buggibub

Jax08 said:


> No. He's a liability. He will only gain confidence in his fear aggression every time he scares a person off. Putting him in this situation is not doing this dog any favors. It makes no difference whether the handler is male or female. I have fear aggressive dogs. Been there, done that.


So do I. I guess what I meant to say was just HAVING a GSD will help him because their presence is intimidating. 


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## lalachka

Yeah, I got one too. He's only at the beginning stages and it's not as bad yet but I read up on it and that's exactly what everyone saying: in time it will escalate because any incident that wasn't dealt with just reinforces it. 

Also, in time they mature and get some confidence so they feel 'confident enough' to fear bite as opposed to fear bark. 

I'm working on my boy to try to make sure this doesn't happen. 


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## Buggibub

lalachka said:


> Yeah, I got one too. He's only at the beginning stages and it's not as bad yet but I read up on it and that's exactly what everyone saying: in time it will escalate because any incident that wasn't dealt with just reinforces it.
> 
> Also, in time they mature and get some confidence so they feel 'confident enough' to fear bite as opposed to fear bark.
> 
> I'm working on my boy to try to make sure this doesn't happen.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


A lot of fear-aggression dogs will never have confidence, hence their fear-based aggressive actions. A confident dog wouldn't be reactive. But that's for another thread and another time. 


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## Jax08

lalachka said:


> Yeah, I got one too. He's only at the beginning stages and it's not as bad yet but I read up on it and that's exactly what everyone saying: in time it will escalate because any incident that wasn't dealt with just reinforces it.
> 
> Also, in time they mature and get some confidence so they feel 'confident enough' to fear bite as opposed to fear bark.
> 
> I'm working on my boy to try to make sure this doesn't happen.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And it's lifelong training. Not just a little work here and there. Jax is FA with dogs. Every time I go out, I have to be aware of any dogs around us and block them to avoid any bad experience. My HA dog is not taken out. She is managed at home and leashed or crated when someone comes over. 

And just a note, it's certainly nothing personal towards Packman...but you need to know where dogs are going and do thorough reference checks before setting up transports across the country. We have had more than one member who turned out to be not so good, including one that ran a rescue. This is the internet...anyone could be not what they seem. If there is a home in another state, please contact a rescue and ask them to do a home visit after you have checked personal references and a vet reference.


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## lalachka

I know so I've been avoiding for now and working on engagement. Once that's done I will see how I can help him overcome at least some of it. He's not too far gone and I think there's hope. 

I don't need him to protect me, I'm ready to protect him. So as long as I can walk the streets with him I'm OK. 


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## Jax08

Buggibub said:


> A lot of fear-aggression dogs will never have confidence, hence their fear-based aggressive actions. A confident dog wouldn't be reactive. But that's for another thread and another time.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



That's not correct. It's true that fear reactive dogs lack confidence. However, these dogs react in a "I'll get you before you get me" mentality. So every time they scare away the object of their fear, it gives them confidence to amp up the reaction next time. It's not increasing their overall confidence, just confidence that their behavior will get the scary thing away from them. 

You need behavior modification to change how they view the object of their fear. With Jax, it's LAT. I haven't done much with BAT yet. With other dogs, they use other methods all working within the dogs threshhold.


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## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> And it's lifelong training. Not just a little work here and there. Jax is FA with dogs. Every time I go out, I have to be aware of any dogs around us and block them to avoid any bad experience. My HA dog is not taken out. She is managed at home and leashed or crated when someone comes over.


That's what I've been doing, putting myself between him and people, walking the other way if I see dogs and so on. Do you have any pointers? Can I pm you? It seems like you have some experience, I have a few questions 



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## Jax08

lalachka said:


> I know so I've been avoiding for now and working on engagement. Once that's done I will see how I can help him overcome at least some of it. He's not too far gone and I think there's hope.
> 
> I don't need him to protect me, I'm ready to protect him. So as long as I can walk the streets with him I'm OK.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Just being aware of the issue is half the battle! Personally, I do not worry about engagement. Once I got it thru my head that Jax had no desire to play with other dogs and I just let her be, we were both much happier. So, IMO, the goal is to get the dog comfortable enough to be near the other dog/person without losing their marbles and accept the d/p within their space for a short time.


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## Jax08

lalachka said:


> That's what I've been doing, putting myself between him and people, walking the other way if I see dogs and so on. Do you have any pointers? Can I pm you? It seems like you have some experience, I have a few questions
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You can! I'll tell you all I don't know!


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## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> Just being aware of the issue is half the battle! Personally, I do not worry about engagement. Once I got it thru my head that Jax had no desire to play with other dogs and I just let her be, we were both much happier. So, IMO, the goal is to get the dog comfortable enough to be near the other dog/person without losing their marbles and accept the d/p within their space for a short time.


Oh no, not with other dogs, engagement with me))))) I started marker training using Michael Ellis' videos and engagement is the first part of it, the dog must be engaged or he won't want to learn. I mentioned it because if he's really engaged with me he also doesn't see or care for anything around him. 

I also stopped encouraging him play with other dogs, as a matter of fact I try to keep him from it. It's a little hard because I've been going to the same park every day and I met a bunch of people and our dogs always played and now I come and they expect him to play and I might seem rude when I stay on the other side by myself but oh well. He comes first. 


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## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> You can! I'll tell you all I don't know!


Thank you))) I will get my 1000 questions together sometimes before the night time))))

ETA sorry for the hijack


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## Jax08

lalachka said:


> He comes first.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 My trainer drilled this into my head...

Concentrate on your dog and don't worry about the others around you. 

Once I stopped worrying about what others were thinking and concentrating on her reaction and getting her under control it was much easier.

Sorry about the hi jack! We can take this to a PM


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## The Packman

Vangie...I will weigh in later this evening, for now I have to be on my way.

BTW: I called my buddy last night and he said he would ride to Birmingham with me. (that's a 8+ hour trip)


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## The Packman

OK...Vangie I'm back ! Last night after I saw you were on line when I made my post I started to PM you. My computer froze up and than my buddy called and I got side tracked. I am retired and a day sleeper. My GF goes to work early in the morning so I walk her to the car and make sure she is safe. (since we are meth country)

Anyhow...don't know where to start ! How about I just reread your thread and if I can adopt Ruger, I'd love to have him if some transportation is feasible. I think I will able to handle him with out much problems. 

The first thing I would do with him (well after about 3 days to give him a chance to settle down) is get him to my Vet, (and Elly Mays breeder) Dr Sherle Thompson and let her look him over and get him shots / heartworm meds...if needed.

Here's her website: Sequoyah German Shepherds 

Here's a fourm thread about her if you haven't seen it already: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/153570-sequoyah-shepherds.html

To answer some of your questions: off the top of my head...one thing I would do with Ruger is not free feed him. I would feed him once a day and for about 3 to 5 days, I would have eat directly out of my hand. From there, I would have him sit and put food down right in front of him a little bit at a time. Making him earn each hand full.

I would keep him and Elly May pretty much apart until everybody is comfortable with everybody else. Let him sleep in a crate for the first few days, from there I'll let him sleep in the kitchen blocking him off from the rest of the house. 

I'd let him walk me...probably 3/4 times a day, just shot walks no further than 15 ft from the house so that he will learn to be comfortable in his immediate surroundings. My GF walks Elly everyday as soon as she gets home from work but I don't think I'd let her walk him until he is really comfortable with his new home.

I will keep Ruger away from other people. We relocated here 5 years ago and don't know a lot of people. (we stick to ourselves) I have one friend who comes over to help me around the house one day a week. For the first 2 weeks I won't have him come over.

Elly May has never been on the end of a chain. She goes in and out as she pleases.

Well that's enough for now. If you have any questions let me know.


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## GSDElsa

But packman.... you need to understand that this dog is fear aggressive. Meaning he's likely going to bite a 6 yeast old selling girl scout cookies but run with his tail between his legs at a meth head looking to cause serious trouble. This is NOT a dog that you can allow to "come and go as he pleases"and you need to understand that. .. which I'm not sure you do. Since you have a very gsd saavy very perhaps you can print this thread out and ask for her advice. I think you don't have a good appreciation for what this dog really is. Not one that can be outside unsupervised that's for sure.


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## Gwenhwyfair

GSDElsa, I know you are very knowledgeable and I mean no disrespect but .... what concerns me is it sounds like Ruger hasn't been evaluated hands on by a trainer, yes? 

Sometimes seeing the dog in person gives a very different picture of what is going on.

Packman may not be the right home BUT it sounds like he at least is in a more stable situation, has the plans and ability to manage Ruger AND has access to a vet who is a very knowledgeable GSD breeder to boot!

If the dog doesn't work out for him he could at least foster until some knowledgeable folks get a hands on examination of Ruger and then take it from there. 

Just food for thought.


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## Vangie

Had another incident this weekend. While visiting at my Dads house, my kids and nephews and nieces were outside playing. One of my nephews went to pet Klina, and Ruger lunged at him. I had already told him not to go near Klina, but he said he forgot. Ruger tried to bite his arm. While he was petting Klina. 

This is how its going to be all the time isnt it?


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## selzer

Vangie said:


> Had another incident this weekend. While visiting at my Dads house, my kids and nephews and nieces were outside playing. One of my nephews went to pet Klina, and Ruger lunged at him. I had already told him not to go near Klina, but he said he forgot. Ruger tried to bite his arm. While he was petting Klina.
> 
> This is how its going to be all the time isnt it?


It sounds like an awful lot of stimulation for a dog that is not acting like a canine good citizen all the time. 

If you live with your dad, why not put the dog up when you have extra kids over? If you don't live with your dad, why are you bringing a dog that is having some issues to where there are going to lots of kids and commotion?

You cannot expect kids to stay away from dogs. You have to make sure they cannot access your dog. This is on you, not the kid, even if you told him. If someone has offered to take this dog, maybe you should seriously consider the offer.


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## Blanketback

Vangie, my first GSD didn't like children. He also had a problem with air snapping, the problem being that he did this whenever he was uncomfortable. So he was never around children, period. He was a wonderful dog otherwise, and he fit right into my childless lifestyle. Some dogs need a special home that can accommodate their particular issues.
I hope everything works out for you, your puppy, and Packman.


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## marshies

I agree with the notion above that if NOTHING ELSE, packman can give a more suitable temporary home for Ruger to live in.

No offense to the OP, but your life sounds pretty hectic right now with younger kids, older parents, moving, and a tight budget. I know sometimes dogs feed off of the handler's stress and get more worked up. So though you have good intentions to hold onto him, I think your home situation may be providing more fuel/opportunity for him to make mistakes.


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## wolfstraum

Another incident this weekend? I am sorry, with all you profess to know about the problems with Ruger's temperament, why would you put him in a position where he can act out, endangering not only him, but another child?

Whether or not Packman is the ideal placement, please work at arrangements for him to take the dog....or euthanize the dog.....Perhaps he can turn the dog around for his needs - perhaps not...but you will not be in the position of risking a bite to someone because you seem to be having problems with truly accepting the situation....we all go through denial at situations that we don't like, but it is not responsible to keep testing this dog's temperament at the possible expense of a child being bitten!

Sorry if this is harsh, but how many times and how many people have to answer you that this is a dangerous situation.

Lee


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## The Packman




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## sparra

GSDElsa said:


> But packman.... you need to understand that this dog is fear aggressive. Meaning he's likely going to bite a 6 yeast old selling girl scout cookies but run with his tail between his legs at a meth head looking to cause serious trouble. This is NOT a dog that you can allow to "come and go as he pleases"and you need to understand that. .. which I'm not sure you do. Since you have a very gsd saavy very perhaps you can print this thread out and ask for her advice. I think you don't have a good appreciation for what this dog really is. Not one that can be outside unsupervised that's for sure.


AGREED!!!

My GSD would jump that fence with ease 

For those suggesting Packman take this dangerous dog perhaps a look at this thread and some of his thoughts there might change your mind.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-ugly/312529-any-advice-helpful-very-sad.html


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## sparra

I'm still trying to fathom how a fear aggressive dog who bites children would be a good fit for a bloke wanting protection for his girlfriend.....but anyway.....sighs.....


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## Blanketback

It could be that this puppy just doesn't like children, and isn't dangerous at all, so long as he's kept away from them. He's definitely lacking in training, and OP admits this. I don't know what meth heads are like, but hopefully just knowing there are GSDs on the property would be protection enough. I know in my area, having a barking dog will discourage anyone from entering my property. But they're just lazy here, lol.


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## sparra

Blanketback said:


> It could be that this puppy just doesn't like children, and isn't dangerous at all, so long as he's kept away from them. He's definitely lacking in training, and OP admits this. I don't know what meth heads are like, but hopefully just knowing there are GSDs on the property would be protection enough. I know in my area, having a barking dog will discourage anyone from entering my property. But they're just lazy here, lol.


But he shouldn't be allowed to bark at people and scare them off.....it will just make him worse.
My understanding is it is not just children he has displayed aggression towards. he is not a puppy and yes he is dangerous if he will bite unprovoked.


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## Blanketback

I call him a puppy, because at only 1.5 years old he definitely hasn't matured yet. And I question the 'dangerous' label because - and please Vangie, this isn't an insult to you - I don't believe the puppy's been handled properly. It's impossible to say without being there, but this puppy can't stay with OP. That's pretty obvious.


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## selzer

Not every dog that is acting out inappropriately in one set of circumstances and leadership will in another. I don't know anything about Packman's ability to manage this dog, but it seems like where the dog is, it is only a matter of time before some child gets hurt badly. The dog needs to get out of that situation, or the owner has to totally regroup and it just doesn't seem like that is going to happen. Better that the dog be put down than another GSD biting a child. Will what Packman has to offer better than being put down, or is it just as likely that the dog will bite someone? Personally, I think if Packman has a plan to train the dog, it will be less likely to bite anyone inappropriately. The dog does not seem unpredictable, training, and a change in leadership might make all the difference for this dog.


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## Vangie

selzer said:


> It sounds like an awful lot of stimulation for a dog that is not acting like a canine good citizen all the time.
> 
> If you live with your dad, why not put the dog up when you have extra kids over? If you don't live with your dad, why are you bringing a dog that is having some issues to where there are going to lots of kids and commotion?
> 
> You cannot expect kids to stay away from dogs. You have to make sure they cannot access your dog. This is on you, not the kid, even if you told him. If someone has offered to take this dog, maybe you should seriously consider the offer.


He was in a fence on the side of the house. His area.


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## Vangie

I am trying my butt off to find him a good home. NO ONE WILL TAKE HIM. Ive asked rescues for help, not to take him, but just to help me and they won't because of his aggression. Ive asked a handful of trainers, only to be told to put him down or give them so much money and hope for the best. Yes my life right now is hectic... no I don't know when it will slow down again. Ive been dealing with my moms emphysema, moving, Ruger, my husbands change in jobs/money/insurance and now 2 little boys with strep throat. Im tired. 
Yes Im an awful person because I cant help my dog blah blah blah. Its one of those situations where you need to walk in their shoes before you start judging how they do things. Im trying my best, but other things are taking a priority over a dog right now.


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## Blanketback

I don't think you're an awful person, not at all! It takes a very generous person to put the well-being of their dog above their own wants - because I know you love your puppy and would like to keep him, but you're thinking of the children and the puppy's future instead. My first 2 GSDs were both given to me as adults, because in both situations the owners couldn't keep them any more. They were very precious gifts, the best ever.


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## selzer

Vangie said:


> He was in a fence on the side of the house. His area.


If you have company lock the fenced area with a padlock -- they are cheap. If you must crate the dog while they are there and lock the door so that no one can get to the crate. Do whatever it takes to keep the nephews and nieces safe, because having one of your sisters or brothers totally ticked at you will not make dealing with your whole list of other issues any easier. 

I don't think you are a bad owner, but I think that leaving the dog where other children that don't live in your home were able to encounter him was not good. It sounds like your two kids, some nieces/nephews, your other dog, and this dog all running around together -- that was what the post sounded like. The kids were told not to pet the dog, but forgot and pet one of them and the other went for him. Maybe resource guarding a pack member, who knows. But THIS dog needs to be unable to get to the kids, even if the kids go to him. If that means crating him AND padlocking his area, that is what it means. 

Until you have this dog rehomed or figured out, you need to keep him safe from the damage he can do. No excuses. I hope that you can find someone to take the dog, someone who doesn't have kids, and is willing to put in a lot of training.


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## The Packman

sparra said:


> AGREED!!!
> 
> My GSD would jump that fence with ease
> 
> For those suggesting Packman take this dangerous dog perhaps a look at this thread and some of his thoughts there might change your mind.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/312529-any-advice-helpful-very-sad.html


I stand by every thing I ever posted here.

BTW: don't you have anything better to do with your time than get into cyber drama with totally anonymous strangers ? You don't know me from a can of paint. I've had a hard life and I should be dead or in jail. I survived it all...one of the reasons was because I had people in my life me that never gave up on me. 

sparra...maybe you believe in putting a bullet in a K-9s head because you can't control him / her but not me. The only reason I would ever kill Elly May is if she was attacking my girlfriend in front of me and I couldn't get her to yield. My GF shares my feelings on this.

Elly May is not our pet, she is a family member.


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## sparra

The Packman said:


> I stand by every thing I ever posted here.
> 
> BTW: don't you have anything better to do with your time than get into cyber drama with totally anonymous strangers ? You don't know me from a can of paint. I've had a hard life and I should be dead or in jail. I survived it all...one of the reasons was because I had people in my life me that never gave up on me.
> 
> sparra...maybe you believe in putting a bullet in a K-9s head because you can't control him / her but not me. The only reason I would ever kill Elly May is if she was attacking my girlfriend in front of me and I couldn't get her to yield. My GF shares my feelings on this.
> 
> Elly May is not our pet, she is a family member.


Oh calm down 

No I don't know you from a can of paint and neither does the OP which is why IMO giving a dog to someone of the internet who has issues with aggression doesn't seem wise to me.....especially if you are wanting it for protection....that just doesn't make sense to me.

I believe in doing what is responsible. "Any home is better than PTS" is not necessarily the way to go. If the OP can't find a home who can GUARANTEE that the dog will never bite another person again then yes I do believe the responsible thing is to PTS.

Your past has nothing to with anything going on in the here and now with this dog......personally I don't think you are the right person for this dog.


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## The Packman

Sparra this is my last post to this thread…I don’t intend to turn someone who is going thru a hard time thread into a cyber food fight. 

Your right Rugers mom doesn’t know either…that is why I offered to provide references. 

I do not want another (aggressive) GSD for protection per se…I want him for a first line of defense. I also want him, so I can take Elly May with me when I go in town because she loves to ride in my pick-up with her head hanging out the back window.

There use to another poster here who use to disagree with anything I said, my cyber rule of thumb is to ignore people like that but this is a different case. 

Having said that…my past has every thing to do with me wanting to adopt Ruger. I just don’t believe in killing animals or babies in the womb for convenience's sake and it should be the last possible course. I was criminal and was rehabilitated, so I believe it can be done by first hand experiences.

Your are telling me that my life experiences and my past participating in K-9 training has no baring on whether or not I am a good candidate for rehoming a aggressive dog but the fact that your K-9 could jump my fence is relevant to the matter at hand.

That is logic that is hard to debate with.

If anyone would like to PM me, I’d be glad to hear from them.


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## sparra

The Packman said:


> I'd love to have Ruger. I live near Chattanooga and if I could get help with a transport close to me, I'd be first in line. I have been looking for awhile now for a GSD or MAL that is being rehome for reasons of aggression.
> 
> I have 2+ acres and a (apx) 50 X 50 fenced in yard. Elly May is walked two times a day and I play with her (outside) every night. I have had Elly to obedience classes and level 1 protection. I feed her nothing but premium dog food and have her on Multi-Advantage. She's a part of the family and well taken care of.
> 
> 
> 
> For those who haven't heard my story yet on why I need a aggressive K-9: I live in the sticks of East Tennessee (the meth capital of the state, maybe the country) and because of a improper subdivision of land, I share the same address with a house that is 200 yards down a dirt road that borders my property. I live on the main road and the other house can not be seen from there.
> 
> Since we have bought our house, I have had countless strangers come to my door looking for my neighbors...the prelude to a burglary or home invasion. Despite 4 KEEP OUT and 2 Beware of Dogs signs along my 250+ ft driveway, they still come. Because of this, I hate going any where and leaving my GF alone. Elly May is a good dog but I am not sure what would happen, if she ever really had to _put the hammer down..._without me there.
> 
> It should also be noted: My ex-neighbor was once discharging a fire arm with the sole intent of harassing me. So instead of confronting him, I called 911 and it took the Sheriffs Dept. almost a half hour to send one Officer to my house.
> 
> I learned a valuable lesson that day and that's why I"d love to have a GSD or MAL that only my GF and I would be safe around, as a first line of defense.


Apologies for thinking what you wrote here is what you meant.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

> Another incident this weekend? I am sorry, with all you profess to know about the problems with Ruger's temperament, why would you put him in a position where he can act out, endangering not only him, but another child?
> 
> Whether or not Packman is the ideal placement, please work at arrangements for him to take the dog....or euthanize the dog.....Perhaps he can turn the dog around for his needs - perhaps not...but you will not be in the position of risking a bite to someone because you seem to be having problems with truly accepting the situation....we all go through denial at situations that we don't like, but it is not responsible to keep testing this dog's temperament at the possible expense of a child being bitten!
> 
> Sorry if this is harsh, but how many times and how many people have to answer you that this is a dangerous situation.
> 
> Lee


I don't want to be harsh either, but the reality is, he was put in a situation he shouldn't have been in.

I think, and I could be wrong, that you (vangie), think that he can be 'fixed'..or if he's having a good day, take him out and he'll be ok..it's not the way to think and maybe because you love him so much, your in somewhat denial of what he is truly capable of if not managed properly? 

I also think your in over your head with this dog. He IS going to hurt someone someday if something doesn't change He is a huge liability to you, you could lose everything you own and then some.

Again, not trying to be mean, or harsh, just want to throw that out there to think about.

I don't know Packman from a bucket of paint either BUT, it sounds like he has a plan in place, has a WONDERFUL VET, who is also VERY dog savvy especially GSD's. 
He wont be around children. This could be the type of situation 'he' needs in order to live a good life. 

I don't know who the trainers are you've had to evaluate Ruger, I would be looking for one more into working gsd's, that knows them inside and out , not just a basic obedience trainer..One who has GSD experience. 

Honestly, I know you love him, but it sounds like you have just to much on your plate right now to properly manage him..Good luck with whatever you decide


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## wolfstraum

Diane, you put it so much more gently than me.....   

Vangie has stated over and over that she does not have the resources ($$$) to have someone good and experienced like Dave Kroyer (a professional who makes a living from dog training and well known and respected!) work with Ruger...

I hope for Ruger's sake that she makes the effort to get him re-homed to Packman and that he can manage him more judiciously.

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ya know for someone who jumped on me for wondering how on earth 10 dogs died in one fell swoop...you've been exceptionally harsh and unfair to Packman. 

Packman has access to a well known and respected german shepherd breeder here in the U.S. that you wouldn't know boo about *AND she's a veterinarian to boot!*

Sequoyah German Shepherds


If that's one of his references then I think he's in good hands to have the dog assessed by a knowledgeable person and IF the dog can be trained/managed safely at least it will have a shot at a life!! 

Really it should be between Packman and Vangie and not us second guessing, especially since the dog has NOT been evaluated hands on by a trainer. 






sparra said:


> Apologies for thinking what you wrote here is what you meant.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Hi Vangie,

Things like this happen. You've been put into several unexpected situations. Diane and Lee are correct and I think everyone means well.

Take a breath, maybe PM with Packman and consider his offer. Verify his references (the breeder/vet he mentions really is TOP notch and very knowledgeable about German Shepherds).

Diane and Lee are right, maybe you are having a hard time letting go but sometimes the hardest thing to do is the most loving, letting Ruger go to a home that has more resources to work with him.

Take a breath, contact Packman and at least explore the idea and see if that may be the best thing for you and Ruger.

Hang in there....



Vangie said:


> I am trying my butt off to find him a good home. NO ONE WILL TAKE HIM. Ive asked rescues for help, not to take him, but just to help me and they won't because of his aggression. Ive asked a handful of trainers, only to be told to put him down or give them so much money and hope for the best. Yes my life right now is hectic... no I don't know when it will slow down again. Ive been dealing with my moms emphysema, moving, Ruger, my husbands change in jobs/money/insurance and now 2 little boys with strep throat. Im tired.
> Yes Im an awful person because I cant help my dog blah blah blah. Its one of those situations where you need to walk in their shoes before you start judging how they do things. Im trying my best, but other things are taking a priority over a dog right now.


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## lalachka

Gwenhwyfair said:


> (the breeder/vet he mentions really is TOP notch and very knowledgeable about German Shepherds).


if Ruger was going to stay with her - then yeah, i'd agree, best scenario. but i don't think that's a good solution, that's taking the dog from one problem situation and putting him in another. it's a different situation but they're both problematic in their own separate ways.

i read the thread sparra pointed to, Packman is not the person to deal with a fear aggressive dog. he's looking for a "first line of defense, not protection" (whatever that means). he's looking for a dog that "hates everyone except him and his GF" (loose quote). he mentioned a few times that he'd be happy if hisown dog (Ellie Mae) was meaner and his neighbors knew it.

i'm not knocking anyone feeling like they need protection but he's going about looking for that dog in the wrong way. fear aggressive dog is not right for this job, any guard dog must have good nerves.

Ruger needs a home where he will be rehabiliated, not put in a place where he's expected to be aggressive. the dog has issues, for him aggression doesn't feel good, he's scared everytime. so why put him in a situation where he's expected to experience fear and discomfort?

Packman, this has nothing to do with your drug problems in the past. you were the one that volunteered that info, so now you're using it to say that people are holding it against you when people are explaining why they think your home is a bad setup?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah I read that thread too and it was a very different situation and doesn't apply here.

I say the idea should at least be given a chance and we here on this board shouldn't be putting Packman down for offering an option for Vangie to consider especially given Vangie hasn't been able to have the dog evaluated due to her financial situation. That's why I think you're jumping the gun here. 

I think this should be between Vangie and Packman, *if* it's an avenue Vangie chooses to explore, period.

Vangie is an adult and I'm sure she and her husband will be able to make the right decision. 




lalachka said:


> if Ruger was going to stay with her - then yeah, i'd agree, best scenario. but i don't think that's a good solution, that's taking the dog from one problem situation and putting him in another. it's a different situation but they're both problematic in their own separate ways.
> 
> i read the thread sparra pointed to, Packman is not the person to deal with a fear aggressive dog. he's looking for a "first line of defense, not protection" (whatever that means). he's looking for a dog that "hates everyone except him and his GF" (loose quote). he mentioned a few times that he'd be happy if hisown dog (Ellie Mae) was meaner and his neighbors knew it.
> 
> i'm not knocking anyone feeling like they need protection but he's going about looking for that dog in the wrong way. fear aggressive dog is not right for this job, any guard dog must have good nerves.
> 
> Ruger needs a home where he will be rehabiliated, not put in a place where he's expected to be aggressive. the dog has issues, for him aggression doesn't feel good, he's scared everytime. so why put him in a situation where he's expected to experience fear and discomfort?
> 
> <snipped>


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## wolfstraum

Over and over, the dog is a liability with Vangie - who has kids, and is putting the dog in a lose-lose situation over and over...she is stressed, she is overwhelmed and she is in denial...the dog is not her top priority....and real life is interfering...NO ONE - meaning, no person, no rescue, no trainer is going to make this easy and take the dog off her hands as it stands right now...she has stated she is not in a financial place that she can even afford to PTS...

So - what is the best immediate action to resolve it, get Ruger safe from PTS because of a bite incident??? The ONLY one that has offered to help is PACKMAN....whether board members agree or not...this seems to be the quickest, most expedient way to let Vangie place him without Ruger being PTS immediately - None of us, realistically, know Packman's situation but he has offered references etc....There are not tons of options for Ruger given the financial and stress burden on Vangie right now...so debating whether he will work out as Packman hopes is not relevant to the immediate situation!!!! It is only adding doubt, and making a decision that much harder.

JMHO

Lee


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## Jax08

JakodaCD OA said:


> I don't want to be harsh either, but the reality is, he was put in a situation he shouldn't have been in.
> 
> I think, and I could be wrong, that you (vangie), think that he can be 'fixed'..or if he's having a good day, take him out and he'll be ok..it's not the way to think and maybe because you love him so much, your in somewhat denial of what he is truly capable of if not managed properly?
> 
> I also think your in over your head with this dog. He IS going to hurt someone someday if something doesn't change He is a huge liability to you, you could lose everything you own and then some.
> 
> Again, not trying to be mean, or harsh, just want to throw that out there to think about.
> 
> I don't know Packman from a bucket of paint either BUT, it sounds like he has a plan in place, has a WONDERFUL VET, who is also VERY dog savvy especially GSD's.
> He wont be around children. This could be the type of situation 'he' needs in order to live a good life.
> 
> I don't know who the trainers are you've had to evaluate Ruger, I would be looking for one more into working gsd's, that knows them inside and out , not just a basic obedience trainer..One who has GSD experience.
> 
> Honestly, I know you love him, but it sounds like you have just to much on your plate right now to properly manage him..Good luck with whatever you decide



I am absolutely not one to recommend sending a dog to a stranger across the country as I previously stated in this thread.

HOWEVER, this dog is out of options. This is a dog that needs 100% management 100% of the time. There is NO letting your guard down allowed. As proven it will only end badly.

So Please....talk to Packman, get references from him (including a vet reference), talk to Sequoyah who bred his current dog, contact a rescue to do a home visit, write up a contract to protect the dog and get a transport set up.

Sequoyah German Shepherds

This whole thing should not take long than a couple of weeks to get that done and in the meantime...keep him isolated from strangers.


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

*Exactly.* (I was going to test how many thumbs up this board allows!)

...and I for one would NOT want it on my conscience that something I wrote on the internet about a person I do not know influenced a person like Vangie who is in a very difficult situation, to not at least look into a possibility for Ruger and then she is later forced to PTS her dog.

If Ruger had been to trainers and been hands on evaluated that would be different.






wolfstraum said:


> Over and over, the dog is a liability with Vangie - who has kids, and is putting the dog in a lose-lose situation over and over...she is stressed, she is overwhelmed and she is in denial...the dog is not her top priority....and real life is interfering...NO ONE - meaning, no person, no rescue, no trainer is going to make this easy and take the dog off her hands as it stands right now...she has stated she is not in a financial place that she can even afford to PTS...
> 
> So - what is the best immediate action to resolve it, get Ruger safe from PTS because of a bite incident??? The ONLY one that has offered to help is PACKMAN....whether board members agree or not...this seems to be the quickest, most expedient way to let Vangie place him without Ruger being PTS immediately - None of us, realistically, know Packman's situation but he has offered references etc....There are not tons of options for Ruger given the financial and stress burden on Vangie right now...so debating whether he will work out as Packman hopes is not relevant to the immediate situation!!!! It is only adding doubt, and making a decision that much harder.
> 
> JMHO
> 
> Lee


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

ALSO IMO - At this point, it is in Vangie and her husband's hands as the owners of Ruger.

A path has been opened, it's now up to them to decide to proceed or not.

Time to Let go and let God.

Best to you Vangie. Fingers are crossed for a positive outcome for you, your family and Ruger.


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## lalachka

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yeah I read that thread too and it was a very different situation and doesn't apply here.
> 
> I say the idea should at least be given a chance and we here on this board shouldn't be putting Packman down for offering an option for Vangie to consider especially given Vangie hasn't been able to have the dog evaluated due to her financial situation. That's why I think you're jumping the gun here.
> 
> I think this should be between Vangie and Packman, *if* it's an avenue Vangie chooses to explore, period.
> 
> Vangie is an adult and I'm sure she and her husband will be able to make the right decision.


of course it's her decision, i'm just stating my opipnion as is everyone else. if it's her decision PERIOD then why are you stating yours?

anyway, i said all i wanted to about this.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Because she's in a difficult situation and you guys may be scaring her off from even giving it consideration. A lot of other people (like myself) have said 'I don't know packman' and are advising Vangie to consider his references and THEN decide. So in other words a more balanced response.

Not the 'don't do it!!!' type responses you and Sparra are giving and then trying to justify by making packman look entirely unsuitable. That's NOT fair to him or Vangie.

Other then that I think Lee's last post says it all.





lalachka said:


> of course it's her decision, i'm just stating my opipnion as is everyone else. if it's her decision PERIOD then why are you stating yours?
> 
> anyway, i said all i wanted to about this.


----------



## Jax08

lalachka had some good points in her post. If everyone else can have input then she certainly can also without be ripped on for it. The OP can certainly read, comprehend and pick out the parts that are useful for her in every post. I hope both the OP and Packman read it and take it to heart. She is correct in that this dog is not going to make a good guard dog and needs behavior modification (if that is possible)


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## Blanketback

Why are people calling Ruger 'fear aggressive' when they've never seen him in action? He could be nothing more than simply a spoiled adolescent. Seriously, all this paranoia and pessimism is ridiculous. I have a foster here, that I was able to help because of this site. Yes, I let a stranger into my home, with her GSD. She could have been a murderer, with a trained PPD, or just out to rob me blind. Or she could have left him with someone who eats dogs. Cripes, sometimes you have to take things at face value and accept the help of strangers. You know, "a stranger is a friend you haven't met yet" type of thing. Good luck Vangie and Packman, I'm rooting for you.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Why are people calling Ruger 'fear aggressive' when they've never seen him in action? He could be nothing more than simply a spoiled adolescent. Seriously, all this paranoia and pessimism is ridiculous. I have a foster here, that I was able to help because of this site. Yes, I let a stranger into my home, with her GSD. She could have been a murderer, with a trained PPD, or just out to rob me blind. Or she could have left him with someone who eats dogs. Cripes, sometimes you have to take things at face value and accept the help of strangers. You know, "a stranger is a friend you haven't met yet" type of thing. Good luck Vangie and Packman, I'm rooting for you.


it's not the stranger part that i'm speaking against, it's the fact that he's looking for a guard dog without the understanding what makes a dog suitable to be a guard dog and how to make one.

i've heard of people of "toughening up" their dogs by punching it in the face, i see people in the park telling their dogs to "get 'em" at people passing by, i see dumb things being done by people all the time trying to create "protection" dogs without knowing how to do it.

all i'm saying (without insulting Packman, how is lack of knowledge an insult? i'm ignorant myself when it comes to almost anything, you can't know everything) is that he doesn't understand how to go about getting a guard dog and couple that with the fact that Ruger has issues (whatever they are) doesn't make him a good choice IMO again.

who is it benefitting if he has to be rehomed again in a little while? 

yeah, you fostered, there's a difference. fostering usually means trying to rehab a dog, working in his issues (whatever they are), not trying to make him into a guard dog without knowing how it's done.

everything above is my opinion, Vangie will do whatever she decides, obviously. but i thought the forum is here so people can state their opinions. if nothing else, it might give her some points to consider.


----------



## lalachka

wolfstraum said:


> Over and over, the dog is a liability with Vangie - who has kids, and is putting the dog in a lose-lose situation over and over...she is stressed, she is overwhelmed and she is in denial...the dog is not her top priority....and real life is interfering...NO ONE - meaning, no person, no rescue, no trainer is going to make this easy and take the dog off her hands as it stands right now...she has stated she is not in a financial place that she can even afford to PTS...
> 
> So - what is the best immediate action to resolve it, get Ruger safe from PTS because of a bite incident??? The ONLY one that has offered to help is PACKMAN....whether board members agree or not...this seems to be the quickest, most expedient way to let Vangie place him without Ruger being PTS immediately - None of us, realistically, know Packman's situation but he has offered references etc....There are not tons of options for Ruger given the financial and stress burden on Vangie right now...so debating whether he will work out as Packman hopes is not relevant to the immediate situation!!!! It is only adding doubt, and making a decision that much harder.
> 
> JMHO
> 
> Lee


you're right, it's a tough situation all around. i'm just bringing up some points, not telling her not to do it. hopefully she makes her own decisions and there are not easy ones here.

i'm not sure what the best outcome is, maybe you're right that getting him out is the priority over anything else, and maybe you're not if it will just add to his misery. no one knows


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## Blanketback

The Packman said:


> I do not want another (aggressive) GSD for protection per se…I want him for a first line of defense.


That's his quote. That is *NOT* looking for a guard dog. That is a normal request of any good dog, to give an alert bark. Then the homeowner takes it from there. Depending on where you live...lol...

You are most certainly entitled to your opinion, but it seems like you're putting words in Packman's mouth. That's a little different.


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## Jax08

lalachka didn't attack Packman. She simply stated an opinion that this dog would not make a good guard/alert dog due to the instability and being unable to trust the dog to make a decision between a threat and a child, which the dog has already proven to be true. She raised a concern that many, including myself, have with this situation.

I think Packman should go into this, not with the thought that this will be an "alert" dog (because that is really what he's looking for more than a "guard" dog or PP dog) but with the idea that he is fostering and this may not be the dog he's looking for. The OP needs to make a decision, do the reference checks and get the dog transported if this is what she chooses to do.

A human aggressive dog CAN be managed if they are isolated and if they are not aggressive towards the family. We have one...she's almost 14 yrs old.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> That's his quote. That is *NOT* looking for a guard dog. That is a normal request of any good dog, to give an alert bark. Then the homeowner takes it from there. Depending on where you live...lol...
> 
> You are most certainly entitled to your opinion, but it seems like you're putting words in Packman's mouth. That's a little different.


isn't that picking words apart? i was just using a different word. OK, he's looking for a dog who's a first line of defense. 

but here are some of his exact quotes. he is looking for a dog that others don't want because he's aggressive. usually it's dogs that bite or try to bite and usually it's fear biters. why would you want any of these as a first line of defense - i don't know.

he says it himself, he wants a dog that's only safe around him and his GF (doesn't sound llike an alert barker). and everything else below doesn't sound right to me.

the fact that i have to keep repeating myself sounds like i'm really trying to talk Vangie out of it. i'm not, i'm just explaining my point of view, please don't take my repeating things as insisting.

i dont' know what the solution for her is.



> .....I* have been looking for awhile now for a GSD or MAL that is being rehome for reasons of aggression*. ......For those who haven't heard my story yet on *why I need a aggressive K-9*.......Elly May is a good dog but I am not sure *what would happen, if she ever really had to *_*put the hammer down*..._without me there.
> I learned a valuable lesson that day and that's why *I"d love to have a GSD or MAL that only my GF and I would be safe around*, as a first line of defense.


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## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> lalachka didn't attack Packman. She simply stated an opinion that this dog would not make a good guard/alert dog due to the instability and being unable to trust the dog to make a decision between a threat and a child, which the dog has already proven to be true. She raised a concern that many, including myself, have with this situation.
> 
> I think Packman should go into this, not with the thought that this will be an "alert" dog (because that is really what he's looking for more than a "guard" dog or PP dog) but with the idea that he is fostering and this may not be the dog he's looking for. The OP needs to make a decision, do the reference checks and get the dog transported if this is what she chooses to do.
> 
> A human aggressive dog CAN be managed if they are isolated and if they are not aggressive towards the family. We have one...she's almost 14 yrs old.


thank you))))) i have a problem explaining things clearly sometimes. yes, it's not like he's a bad match, only his idea for what he wants this dog for is the wrong idea. if he takes this dog to rehab him and realize that this dog might never have the nerves to be an alert dog - all is well.


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## GSDElsa

IMO past threads people have pasted here should absolutely be taken into consideration for the owner of this dog. A dog getting rehomed is serious business. All of us who have done rescue know of a lot of horror adults. Much better to be cynical and cautious.


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## Jax08

ok...all done engaging. You really need to read what I wrote again because you have it ALL twisted and are now adding things I never said. This is about the dog not anyone's ego. 

OP- please consider your options. You have to manage this dog 100% and never let your guard down. You should consider previous posts when discussing a long distance adoption, get the reference checks and contact a rescue to do a home visit.

Packman - Please go into this without the expectation that this is the "alert" dog you are looking for. From everything the OP has posted, it sounds like this dog may be genetically unstable and that means management all the time.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In this particular case I don't agree, IMO it really went overboard.

Especially a case where NO rescue organizations have stepped up to help, according to Vangie and buggiebub earlier.

I do agree that due diligence is always in order though.



GSDElsa said:


> IMO past threads people have pasted here should absolutely be taken into consideration for the owner of this dog. A dog getting rehomed is serious business. All of us who have done rescue know of a lot of horror adults. Much better to be cynical and cautious.


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## TrickyShepherd

Oh for god sake, this thread has gotten out of hand....

OP- get Packman's references.. CHECK them, and if all pans out well there.... give him the dog. Either that, or put the dog down.

Maybe the dog will have another chance at life and be happy without the hussle and bussle of kids and an active family (and time to give him!).... or maybe not and he'll have to be PTS anyways... But why not give the dog a chance?!

I don't know Packman at all ....barely even said anything to him on here (I will NOT say I know anything about his capability or truth of words/intent... which is why I mentioned to check the references and talk to him). BUT, he's offering a possible *correct* home for this dog. Duke hates kids too.... and older woman (70+), if he went into a home with them... YES, someone WOULD get bit after a certain amount of time! Was he put to sleep? No. He came here: we have no kids, we are younger, and I had a LOT of time to put into him..... do we have a bite record? Nope. He's now perfect with that and tolerates just fine as we go on walks and are around the different situations. Perfect gentleman. 

Seems to me there's already an answer here..... Now it's up to the OP to act on it. Until then, I'd highly suggest keeping this dog away from the kids and high activity (or emotion) around the house... accidents are going to keep happening and eventually it's going to be MUCH worse. He's not just going to wake up and be fine.... so why set him up for failure and continue to endanger the family?!

OP I am sorry for your situation, it happens, but that doesn't make it any easier. It sucks. Good luck with your decision and I hope you and Ruger get some peace in whatever is chosen.


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## JakodaCD OA

honestly why bicker about it? It's up to Vangie and her family to ultimately decide what to do with Ruger.

I give kudos to Packman for being one to throw out his offer. I am not going to pick apart his wording in his posts about what he's looking for..Wording via the net can be misconstrued..

I'll say it again, I don't know him from a bucket of paint BUT I do know of Sequyoah and if she is one of his references, I have to say without meeting him, I would turn a dog over to him..(not saying vangie should do this, just throwing out my opinion)

My suggestion to Vangie, if your serious about adopting him out to Packman, CALL Sequyoah, talk to her, tell her exactly what's going on with Ruger, and get her opinion on Packman's capabilities in handling/homing Ruger..and go from there.

If your intent is to keep him, you need to step up to the plate and be totally committed to re working this dog..That would include consulting with the trainer that was listed previously? Yes it will cost money and time, but I fear if you don't do anything, it's going to end up costing you money as well, as in lawsuit

This dog , like one said, may not be fear aggressive, he may be a real butthead who doesn't particularly like children/strangers? Sure he could be wired wrong, but it could also be a training/management issue which doesn't necessarily mean fear aggressive.

NONE of us are going to know, because we aren't there, we don't 'see' what's going on. 

I hope whatever you decide , it all works out for the best..


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## gsdraven

Ok, that's enough with the back and forth about who said what and what they mean. Move on. 

Further posts not directly related to helping the OP will be removed.

Jamie
Moderator


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## Gwenhwyfair

deleted by myself due to above.


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## OriginalWacky

Vangie, I have rescue connections all over the place, so if you need any help finding somebody to do a home visit, let us know. I know there are others here who have even more connections than I do, and we can help you make sure that whatever home you may decide to place Ruger in is a safe one for him.


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## Vangie

Yea, this thread has gotten way out of hand. Ive pretty much given up on the packman idea everyone. There is no way I can get Ruger to Tennessee. 
So Im back at square one. 
Thanks everyone.
I can't keep a dog that I have to make sure doesn't attack kids, when I have 2 boys that have family and friends over daily. I cant keep locking Ruger in his little box or putting him outside all the time. The only time he's really able to be around us is for about an hour in the morning and at night when we come in to eat and shower and go to bed(unless someone is staying the night). 
I don't know whats gonna happen at this point..............


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## vjt555

I have not read through this post. I have been off the board for a few weeks due to sickness. You need to be very careful on who takes him as dog fighters prowl these websites and this dog would be targeted.


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## ozzymama

Here is my opinion, you can take it for what is worth, step away from the board for a bit. Cal your vet tomorrow and make the appointment and arrangements to put the dog down. He is a threat to children, if my dog bit my child, there wouldn't be a thread, I would put the bullet in my own dog's head.
You cannot manage him and in the back of your mind, you cannot reconcile him to another family where the same might happen. I will not judge you for your decision and those that do - to heck with them. You live with the dog, his quality of life is compromised, you and your family are compromised. Release him from the demons, let him run free at the bridge. You did everything you could and in good conscience cannot allow him to do the same in another's hands. He suffers as you do. The responsible thing is let him go. YOU have done everything you can, do not second-guess yourself. You can adopt him out and months from now read his "dog's we lost" thread. There are exceptions to every rule, but this, it is not one of them. Release him, spare a rescue, adopter or HS the pain, you owe it to him.


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## TrickyShepherd

ozzymama said:


> Here is my opinion, you can take it for what is worth, step away from the board for a bit. Cal your vet tomorrow and make the appointment and arrangements to put the dog down. He is a threat to children, if my dog bit my child, there wouldn't be a thread, I would put the bullet in my own dog's head.
> You cannot manage him and in the back of your mind, you cannot reconcile him to another family where the same might happen. I will not judge you for your decision and those that do - to heck with them. You live with the dog, his quality of life is compromised, you and your family are compromised. Release him from the demons, let him run free at the bridge. You did everything you could and in good conscience cannot allow him to do the same in another's hands. He suffers as you do. The responsible thing is let him go. YOU have done everything you can, do not second-guess yourself. You can adopt him out and months from now read his "dog's we lost" thread. There are exceptions to every rule, but this, it is not one of them. Release him, spare a rescue, adopter or HS the pain, you owe it to him.


I second this. At this point... this seems like the best thing for both the dog and your family. Like Ozzymama said.... take a few days away from here. It's all about you and your family now... not us here or our opinions... you know what's best. Think about it with as little emotion possible (none if you can). Put your family's health and safety into consideration, the little kids who visit, yourself.... and most of all... the dog. At least now would save the heartache of a lawsuit, a child hurt, and your dog being taken away and put to sleep while scared and stressed. This you can control on your time and when he's comfortable and relaxed. You've done what you can.... sometimes, we just can't save them all, and we have to come to these difficult decisions. 

Again, sorry you're going through this. Take a few days away from this thread.... it'll help to get your thoughts and emotions straight and no outside influence. Good luck to you and your family.


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## Vangie

ozzymama said:


> Here is my opinion, you can take it for what is worth, step away from the board for a bit. Cal your vet tomorrow and make the appointment and arrangements to put the dog down. He is a threat to children, if my dog bit my child, there wouldn't be a thread, I would put the bullet in my own dog's head.
> You cannot manage him and in the back of your mind, you cannot reconcile him to another family where the same might happen. I will not judge you for your decision and those that do - to heck with them. You live with the dog, his quality of life is compromised, you and your family are compromised. Release him from the demons, let him run free at the bridge. You did everything you could and in good conscience cannot allow him to do the same in another's hands. He suffers as you do. The responsible thing is let him go. YOU have done everything you can, do not second-guess yourself. You can adopt him out and months from now read his "dog's we lost" thread. There are exceptions to every rule, but this, it is not one of them. Release him, spare a rescue, adopter or HS the pain, you owe it to him.



I was raised that way. If a dog bit a child, it was put down by my dads bullet. I was always taught a dog should know the difference between a child and an adult, if it doesn't, then it has problems. I just hate that he was raised in love and is like this. Klina was raised in filth and no love, just a box and she is amazing. She has hip problems and can hardly put on weight but she adores kids! I am stepping away for a bit. I know what needs to be done. At least I think for the most part its what needs to be done. Especially when I have GSD trainers telling me what needs to be done. I just hate the thought of doing it. It hurts.


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## Castlemaid

The right thing to do is rarely the easy thing to do. Have courage!


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## vjt555

Have read the thread now! I would do what you think is best and not what anyone else says. If Packman can work with the dog then give it a chance. What is lost? You have checked his references, no? The dog has a problem around children. My first dog had this problem and he was strictly kept away from any children but I could do this since there were no children in my house. 


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## Blanketback

Maybe if you post in the transportation forum you'll find help there? There's definitely 2 schools of thought on whether or not a dog is sound if it will bite children. Because of my past experience with a dog like this, I know that they're capable of being wonderful companion dogs - just not in a home with kids. For people like me without children, it's no trouble at all because without that trigger you'd never even know the dog had any issues. Good luck.


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## selzer

If you find in your heart that the best case is to put the dog down, then take him to the vet. Don't shoot him. For one thing IT IS NOT THE DOG'S FAULT. This does not mean it is your fault. It is not. If the dog is wired wrong, than it is wired wrong, and no amount of love or structure or training will make a difference, and no amount of loving you on the dog's part will make a difference. It is not the dog's fault it is simply nature, a serious fault, like bad hips or a disease like MegE, it is not the dog's fault that his mental make up is not right or diseased.

And I really do not have the same problem that most people about shooting a dog as a form of euthanasia, so long as you know how to do it, so that the dog doesn't even know what hit him. But I think that for your own peace of mind, take him to the vet, and have them sedate him. It will be much easier on you and on your kids, to know that you put him down painlessly at the vet. 

I am not saying that the dog is wired wrong. I haven't seen the dog, and even if I did, I wouldn't claim to make that decision in 10 minutes or 10 days. The dog has lived with you and you are the person who knows your dog best. Perhaps a person who is very experienced with aggression and working dogs might be able to assess this dog better, I really don't know. 

I just don't like the attitude that if a dog bites a child he should be shot. If a human being who is raised in any culture and provided with a conscience and set of morals by whatever society he is a member deliberately does serious damage to a child, we should shoot him. But dogs are not human beings. They do not have consciences (yes they can look guilty -- nothing to do with it), and they are not bound by a human set of intelligence or morals. It should not be about punishment with a dog. 

In the old days, a dog would be shot because that is how you would put down a beast that was in pain. You would shoot your horse, or your dog, to put it out of its pain. Now we have a better way to do that.


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## GSDLover2000

Update?


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