# Dear Experienced Breeders



## DanielleKeith (Dec 6, 2010)

My end goal while I am in Germany for the next several years, is to put together a strong breeding program/stock to bring home to the u.s. 

I am a strong advocate for the longhaired shepherds, and I am very excited about the acceptance of longcoats in the s.v. and for breeding. I would like to know if there is anyone out there that breeds specifically longhaired shepherds and what you think about standards, lines etc. My boy now is of West German show lines. I see that a lot of people believe these are not good lines, however, I completely disagree. These dogs are ALSATIANS, and West Germany/east france is Alsatia. Some imported/overbred/U.S. agenda western german show lines I can DEFINITELY see as schlect, however, over here, it is quite different. You would be hard pressed to convince anyone that a DDR or Czech working dog is any more capable or healthy. The top lines are not as varied over here as they are in the states, and ALL of the breeders/handlers/trainers that I meet believe that all GSD that are well bred are capable regardless of if they come from Rheinland-pfalz, baden-wurrtemburg, bavaria, saxony etc. 

I also think that it's ridiculous to assume that the source of these dogs (Germany/Czech) are breeding weak dogs just for beauty purposes. I don't buy it. There are extremely strict conformation/health standards that a dog must meet not to mention the fact that they have to PROVE themselves on the field. So..... a "working" dog from the east that achieves a Sch3 Kk1 is a better/healtheir dog than a Sch3 Kk1 dog from ALSATIA?... Don't buy it. I think the U.S. is overbreeding the dogs, and blaming the neuroticism and bad health on the germans. 

All that being said. I would like to talk to longhair "people" who have a breeding agenda. I will eventually breed longhair exclusively and will be using a mixture of lines from different areas. My dogs will be proven on the field and in the house. I will breed dogs that are of the soundest mind, but will work with the best of the breed. Any thoughts or ideas from other longies?


----------



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Not relevant to your question, but just FYI there is no such place as "Alsatia". It's called the Alsace (well, Alsace-Lorraine, technically).


----------



## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

My girl is a Long Stock Coat and I LOVE her I got her from a Breeder that only breeds Long Stock Coats. She is of German lines (1/2 working 1/2 Show) and I believe that she is a very good cross. I do wish a stronger rear and a broader front in the German shepherd, I also prefer level top lines not sloped or roached and feel that would be something to improve upon in the long coats as there are very few good breeders of the long coat German Shepherd. As long as everything checks out (heathwise and in the field) with Jaina and I find the male to improve on her weaknesses I will be breeding her. I feel she is a great foundation female so far for what I feel is a good and healthy representation of the breed.
So yes I feel that you have a good plan as we need good breeders in our "Variety" of German Shepherds.

Here is Jaina's pedigree;

Cataclysm von Dagg - German shepherd dog


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

My opinion? Any time you are breeding for a specific recessive trait, something else will likely suffer for it in your breeding program.


----------



## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

While I don't think longhair should be a *fault*, I question the soundness, as GSDElsa said, of breeding for a specific recessive trait. 

The GSD is a working breed, and the ideal working coat is the stock coat. [This is not me judging your preference for a long coat, please continue reading.]

For this reason, the gene pool of long-haired dogs is narrower, as breeders [especially workinglines] have selected against dogs carrying those genes. Intentionally breeding only those dogs narrows it further. At some point, you're creating a very small gene pool with all the risks inherent.

I appreciate your fondness for a specific type of GSD, but why not simply be a GSD breeder who breeds for the total GSD, and doesn't discriminate against a long coat, rather than breed specifically for it? If your intent is to breed workingline dogs to appeal to a working market, you're liable to encounter serious skepticism when breeding for a superficial trait, as to many potential buyers, that sort of breeding is a giant red flag.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

DanielleKeith said:


> My end goal while I am in Germany for the next several years, is to put together a strong breeding program/stock to bring home to the u.s.


*That is a good goal - please keep an open mind - go to both types of clubs and WATCH and LEARN - follow a few dogs from youngster to finished product....train one yourself....then take that experience and base your opinions on that...*





> I am a strong advocate for the longhaired shepherds, and I am very excited about the acceptance of longcoats in the s.v. and for breeding. I would like to know if there is anyone out there that breeds specifically longhaired shepherds and what you think about standards, lines etc.


*The longcoat is a recessive that seems to be 'linked' to other desirable qualities....breeding with longcoat as a primary focus/priority is just as dangerous as breeding for extreme color, extreme food drive, extreme angulation etc.....the whole key to breeding is BALANCING all the characteristics, finding complementary (similar) and compensatory traits in breeding pairs and having the luck to make it work!
*




> My boy now is of West German show lines. I see that a lot of people believe these are not good lines, however, I completely disagree. These dogs are ALSATIANS, and West Germany/east france is Alsatia.


*Sorry - it is a historical fact that the English coined the term 'Alsatians' in the period of WWI/II as they liked the breed of dog - but hated the Germans...there is no such thing as a separate 'Alsatian Shepherd'...see above for proper geographical terminology*





> Some imported/overbred/U.S. agenda western german show lines I can DEFINITELY see as schlect, however, over here, it is quite different.


*The info you get is always going to be a product of the experience of the people you are getting it from!!!! If anywhere is "overbred" - it is the massive machine of the SV showline dog in Germany....travel a bit further - go to some of the "kennels" where 20-30 females live in crates in little more than a garage 22 hours a day....except when with litters...*






> You would be hard pressed to convince anyone that a DDR or Czech working dog is any more capable or healthy. The top lines are not as varied over here as they are in the states, and ALL of the breeders/handlers/trainers that I meet believe that all GSD that are well bred are capable regardless of if they come from Rheinland-pfalz, baden-wurrtemburg, bavaria, saxony etc.


*ahh - the consummate sales people!!!! I believe that the last figures I saw were that the highlines were around 80% of the dogs registered, the DDR is gone - only a handful of kennels keeping the gene pool alive, and the Germans I know (judges and breeders) just don't trust the pedigrees of any Iron Curtain country's breeding programs....and they truly truly truly BELIEVE what they say - all evidence to the contrary - 

AGAIN - keep an open mind - GO to the Sieger show - watch the bitework - go the the BSP - watch that....there will be WL dogs in the Sieger show....never at the top as they are not the style/fashion of the majority - but you will rarely see a highline dog make it through the elimination process to even QUALIFY for the BSP - and if one does - it is a very low V dog - a fluke or a dog whose breeder was trying to breed performance back into his lines - the genetics on a see saw for beauty/working... Quit listening to the propaganda and LEARN for yourself!!!

*


> I also think that it's ridiculous to assume that the source of these dogs (Germany/Czech) are breeding weak dogs just for beauty purposes. I don't buy it. There are extremely strict conformation/health standards that a dog must meet not to mention the fact that they have to PROVE themselves on the field. So..... a "working" dog from the east that achieves a Sch3 Kk1 is a better/healtheir dog than a Sch3 Kk1 dog from ALSATIA?... Don't buy it. I think the U.S. is overbreeding the dogs, and blaming the neuroticism and bad health on the germans.


*do yourself a favor - go buy a highline pup from the "best" breeder you can find who will sell you one - go buy a pup from a working line kennel like Mohnwiese or Wanner Hoehen - train them both - dedicate yourself to it - put VPG3 on BOTH dogs KKL both dogs....then read this again....

Forget the distinction of Czech/DDR - just step back and say Highline and Working lines....there are finer points in the subsets - you are jumping from A to K without going B - C - D etc.....DO SOMETHING rather than absorb the sales pitch propaganda - it is NOT an overnight process....it is NOT what is done in the USA - the dogs here are all imports/lines - using the most popular from Europe generally - there are no "bad" pedigrees LOL LOL because almost everyone breeds from "good dogs"...

How many dogs have YOU trained? lived with? how many working line clubs have you spent serious amounts of time at watching the training, studying the pedigrees of the dogs you can see....you have a terrific opportunity and seem to be letting yourself be spoonfed rather than using the opportunity to learn...

*



> All that being said. I would like to talk to longhair "people" who have a breeding agenda. I will eventually breed longhair exclusively and will be using a mixture of lines from different areas. My dogs will be proven on the field and in the house. I will breed dogs that are of the soundest mind, but will work with the best of the breed. Any thoughts or ideas from other longies?


*anytime you put one factor on top of your priority list - you are doomed to a downward spiral IMO - the priority list should be a triangle - with no top - at every angle you look, there are 3 major concerns - STRUCTURE (form follows function - my favorite quote of Frank Lloyd Wright) the physical platform, including health, hips/elbows, backs!!!, to do the job needed - TEMPERAMENT - the mental ability to learn, to live normally and safely as a companion while allowing the dog to fulfill it's stated purpose for being bred - WORKING ABILITY - the drive to do a job - whether herding, SAR, Narcotics, Bomb, Patrol K9 - the ability to learn the job, to perform the job, to be a real dog as needed - as this breed was developed to be a dog for all work - not just a herder specifically, and the Schutzhund test was developed to demonstrate the ability to do the work prior to the dog being used to breed....many many many dogs get SchH3/VPG3/IPO3 - but at this point, it is not the key it once was to the character of the dog.

These three qualities can be expanded of course - and should be - but all three should carry weight in any breeding program!! No "type" is perfect - especially when you ask the fans of another "type" - and everyone has different ideas of what constitutes the ideals of each element of my triangle...


Do yourself a favor - spend your time seeing all facets of the breed before you make blanket statements of fact.

Lee
*


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*the above post is only addressing the breeding of Euro/German lines in the US - there are tons of other types of breeders....

As far as the lines here used - in WL I guess that 95% of the dogs out there are bred on Fero or Mink or both in the pedigree- maybe 20% have Lord (DDR) - try to find something not Czech bred free of all three!!!! Asko/Olex/Nick/Vito W - all 3 more contemporary producers - tons of that blood here....

Having a female who I cannot take to those three lines (for many reasons) I know what is available and being bred. 

The US breeders of Euro lines are only a fraction of the dogs bred in the US and registered AKC - the majority of GSDs are commercial breeders of mixed types wtih AKC showline breeders the bigger share than the Euro breeders....so realize that the numbers of registrations here are not a valid part of your opinion of 'overbreeding' when you are comparing Germany/Europe to USA...

Lee
*


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Not a breeder but I have seen a long hair I would get a puppy from if it was ever bred -it was a really awesome working dog-but agree with what was already said about breeding specfically long coats


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Not a breeder but it's a simple fact of biology that when you select for one recessive trait, you narrow your gene pool to a frighteningly small level and are guaranteed to have other, less desireable recessive traits produced as well.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lee, good post (referring to the first one). 

To the OP. The best advice I can give to you is say less and listen more. You have a GREAT opportunity being presented to you. I would love to be able to spend a long period of time in Europe surrounded by excellent German Shepherd Dogs, watching them in training and picking the brains of their handlers and breeders. Heck, I would be in heaven just being surrounded by so many GSD.  Next month I am going for 5 or days. I envy your chance to be there longer.


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Good posts Lee. I think that you give some good explanations/clarifications.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

agreed!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

agreed squared!


----------



## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

Very helpful to me, too, Lee. Helped improve my context for understanding the "big picture." Thanks.


----------



## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

I too agree but somewhere I read that Long coats were only to be bred to other long coats in the SV rules. It could have been a miscommunication or a temporary ruling. Could someone clarify on this?
I too believe breeding for a specific "look" is a bad idea but with breeding in general that is what most people are doing anyways especially the show people.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Actually, Kimberly, you are correct. They will have to breed the long stocks to the long stocks.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

LC to LC???? From what I read, I seem to remember you can ONLY breed the LC to a stock - they are letting them back in as they are an important part of the gene pool to keep the nice show coat - but the SV wants them to not become a separate breed - there is a registry in Germany that is all LCs tho!

Lee


----------



## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

Quoted from New German Shepherd breed standard, new GSD breed standard, German Shepherd Dog hair types

_"For breeding officially. However, the most important thing to be noted here is that matings are approved only between dogs with the same type of hair (e.g. StraightTopcoat Hair with Straight Topcoat Hair, Long Straight Topcoat with Long Straight Topcoat). Combination between the two _(e.g. StraightTopcoat Hair with Straight Topcoat Hair, Long Straight Topcoat with Long Straight Topcoat)_ has not been permitted."_


----------



## DanielleKeith (Dec 6, 2010)

Okay, thanks for all of the strong opinions. Flying off the handle is not necessary  I think there must be something lost in translation here. ?????? Not sure where this all went downhill, I must not have used the right terms for ya..... Anyways, these are very long term goals, and there will be a lot more longhairs regardless of what anyone says. The gene pool will probably become narrowed because of it, but there will be a way to do it. Right now though, LEE, I do have my highline and my "working line" pups that will have a Sch3 title before long, so..... I'll re-read your post and see how it works out for me! hahahahahahahahaahaaaaa Catch ya on the flipside. 

By the way... all this Czech/DDR crap that I am referring to is the wha wha blah blah blah posted all over this site that people keep repeating endless.... The whole "my dog rocks because he's from east german lines, blah blah my dog is better because he's a west german or czech line"...... Gets old. I've got one of each and they both Rock. So, whatever's clever.


----------



## DanielleKeith (Dec 6, 2010)

*** Removed by Admin ***


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Danielle,
It appears you have all the answers and you have your mind set, so good luck on your endeavor. You started this post with some strong assertions and your plan for the future. You also asked some questions in your initial post. I think people were trying to help. Often, when people ask questions you can tell their knowledgebase or lack of; by the question asked.
I don't think that the Czech or DDR dogs have anything to do with the quality of showlines or longhairs. Every top must stand on its own bottom!!
Wish you the best, but always keep an open mind to others who have been where you are trying to go and have been successful at it....doesn't make sense to make mistakes that can be averted just because we are driven to do something.


----------



## BadLieutenant (May 9, 2010)

Danielle,


Just in the last month, you have asked the most basic of questions regarding GSD's. And now a month later, you are questioning the logic of people who have been breeding and owning/training GSD's for decades upon decades. You sound like a 16yr old kid who just got his drivers licence and now thinks he could outrace a Formula One Racer. If you have any sense, listen to Cliff and Lee.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

DanielleKeith said:


> *****original removed by Admin***


 
Wow! What a great way to play. If I were a mod I would consider asking you to not attack others. You may not agree with Lee's comments or opinions but in no way did she attack you personally. Shame on you. :nono:


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

KLCecil said:


> Quoted from New German Shepherd breed standard, new GSD breed standard, German Shepherd Dog hair types
> 
> _"For breeding officially. However, the most important thing to be noted here is that matings are approved only between dogs with the same type of hair (e.g. StraightTopcoat Hair with Straight Topcoat Hair, Long Straight Topcoat with Long Straight Topcoat). Combination between the two _(e.g. StraightTopcoat Hair with Straight Topcoat Hair, Long Straight Topcoat with Long Straight Topcoat)_ has not been permitted."_



This is not the SV site - and I am not sure - I sent a question to a German showline breeder that I know for clarification.....

Lee


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Wow! What a great way to play. If I were a mod I would consider asking you to not attack others. You may not agree with Lee's comments or opinions but in no way did she attack you personally. Shame on you. :nono:



Thanks Kathy - and all who recognize what I was saying!

I would quickly run out of fingers if I tried to count the numbers of enthusiastic beginners who bristle with rage, sarcasm and attack the messenger mentality when they are offered nothing but experienced advice....funny thing is that a few years down the road, most of them figure it out...

Lee


----------



## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

Let me know what you find out. I'm not in favor of breeding same coat type to same coat type as it will drastically narrow the gene pool. They should just add it onto the registry like you do when selecting a color, I believe the SV already has that but it would be nice for AKC and UKC to also do that.


----------



## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

I would love some clarification, too. When I read the quote last night, I thought I must be so tired I was dreaming when I understood what it seems to (still) say. LOL! This would seem to hinder the WGSL breeders who want to keep the coat plushier (if I understand correctly). Thank you for taking the time, Lee!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

_Every top must stand on its own bottom!!_
Love this quote!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jane, just forget that quote, its an "ole Head" quote and you know people here feel I'm too much into things of the past, besides being a snitch!!LOL(I like the quote too!!:wild


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> ...you know people here feel I'm too much into things of the past, besides being a snitch!!LOL(I like the quote too!!:wild


If someone chooses not to learn from you it is at great loss to them. We are lucky to have you here.


----------



## DanielleKeith (Dec 6, 2010)

Sorry for the attack I think that a high-school drama match is not necessary, so I'll apologize for stating the word Alsace wrong..... (should have known better, it's right around the corner here) .... typed too fast, too many cups of coffee. I am also sorry for appearing to be argumentative about the situation. This is a 10 year goal of mine, so no, I do not know what you know, I do know a few things, but I will not ever post for opinions on this matter ever again....... long hair is a personal preference, considered recessive, but will be bred for (already is) more. I believe that the official idea with the sv is to separate the longs/stocks in a matter of a few years...giving us TWO different "breeds" or however you want to view it. This would appear to be the only logical result of separating the breeding of the 2 types. By no means did I mean to step on your toes (anyone's). I intend on shutting my mouth and listening more. I asked for a specific answer from a longhair breeder on the topic of longhair breeding, in the correct forum (BREEDING) and nothing is answered? Of course, unless you count a bunch of wrong ideas and bad information. DDR/Iron curtain breeding or whatever you referred to it as... is still strong here. I don't know who we talk to that these things vary so much, but WOW MOM. Apparently things are a bit different. I appreciate all of the answers, but I feel as though attacking ideas from the get-go is not okay. I definitely lose patience and get ticked when the point never gets across but everyone wants to give you a piece of their mind. It is very typical though. Everyone thinks they are right, self included, and that they know the most. I don't, I'll admit that. Just a dream. 

Lee, I am sorry for the personal attack. here is the sv site if you care to read it. The new regulations are #4, it can be translated easily on your computer if you don't speak German. 

So.... now I'm going to shut my mouth, listen more, and take my iron curtain bitch and my sloppy topline weak hip boy and find somewhere else to play!!!!!!!!! 

Okay, alles gut! Conversation over, and wish you all well. Again, sorry. 

http://www.schaeferhund.de/site/fileadmin/download/satzungen/so_dir-810_zuchtordnung.pdf


----------



## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> If someone chooses not to learn from you it is at great loss to them. We are lucky to have you here.


1. Ditto

2. In a previous life, I was trained as an academic in a foreign language (not German). It might be a good idea to have someone fluent in German read the original and give us his/her translation. It is possible that this new fangled internet translator is not that accurate. Just a suggestion ffrom an old fogey!


----------



## DanielleKeith (Dec 6, 2010)

Oh my gosh... so you can't post that there is a translation possibility for those of you who wouldn't believe my german translation? How did your phone calls to all your friends over here go? I mean, surely they have something to say about the situation? You just can't win  bahhhhahahahahahahahahah


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Since I don't breed showlines, and am more concerned wtih NOT having coats, I only paid cursory attention to the discussions on the coat being allowed - My German friend did confirm that types cannot be crossed - but that so many dogs are borderline, only a koermeister can decide which type a borderline dog lies in - so it is still going to keep those plushies coming!

Lee


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

DanielleKeith said:


> Sorry for the attack I think that a high-school drama match is not necessary, so I'll apologize for stating the word Alsace wrong..... (should have known better, it's right around the corner here) .... typed too fast, too many cups of coffee. I am also sorry for appearing to be argumentative about the situation. This is a 10 year goal of mine, so no, I do not know what you know, I do know a few things, *but I will not ever post for opinions on this matter ever again.......* long hair is a personal preference, considered recessive, but will be bred for (already is) more. I believe that the official idea with the sv is to separate the longs/stocks in a matter of a few years...giving us TWO different "breeds" or however you want to view it. This would appear to be the only logical result of separating the breeding of the 2 types. By no means did I mean to step on your toes (anyone's). I intend on shutting my mouth and listening more. I asked for a specific answer from a longhair breeder on the topic of longhair breeding, in the correct forum (BREEDING) and nothing is answered? Of course, unless you count a bunch of wrong ideas and bad information. DDR/Iron curtain breeding or whatever you referred to it as... is still strong here. I don't know who we talk to that these things vary so much, but WOW MOM. Apparently things are a bit different. I appreciate all of the answers, but I feel as though attacking ideas from the get-go is not okay. I definitely lose patience and get ticked when the point never gets across but everyone wants to give you a piece of their mind. It is very typical though. Everyone thinks they are right, self included, and that they know the most. I don't, I'll admit that. Just a dream.
> 
> Lee, I am sorry for the personal attack. here is the sv site if you care to read it. The new regulations are #4, it can be translated easily on your computer if you don't speak German.
> 
> ...


Probably best!


----------



## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

That's really interesting, Lee. So, does this mean we now have two separate breeds? What would happen, for instance, if one of your excellent, all round dogs produced a litter with a coat, and that coat had a great, functional form and an awsome working temperament--would it only be sold with a spay/neuter contract? Would you consider selling it to a really reputable breeder of this new breed? I am not asking to put you on the spot, but because I believe that you would do what would be best for the breed and that you would also consider the genetic material which would be lost. Then again, you and other breeders might want to watch developments before arriving at a decision.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Interesting question - while every pup I sell is on a non breeding contract &/or limited registration right off the bat, I really don't like the idea of splitting the breed once again - it is already too fractionated (is that a word??) with Euro 1 and 2, AKC show, American goulash mix em all ups/BYB pets - to then split each type into two types!!! The Belgians do it with the Malinois/Turv/Groendal/Lacka-whatever - the pups get registered in the correct type when the litter is mixed

Not sure - I guess it would all depend on the pup, the buyer, their goals etc..... Only have had 9 litters here in US and a couple in Belgium from Basha, and only one had coats so far...the litter I am hoping to have *may* produce a coat - and who knows??? I can honestly say I am not sure what I would do until I am presented with that situation ....

Lee


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

All I have to say is that breeding regulating bodies do not always do the best thing for the breed. It seems that "allowing" longcoats, but restricting them to breeding to themselves is their way of appeasing some people with money but keeping longcoats out as much as possible.

2 breeds is surely the only way this is headed.


----------

