# Shelter vs. Breeder - Please Weigh In



## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

Hi there,

I'm really curious to what people feel about adopting a shepherd from a shelter versus getting a puppy from a breeder.

We got Maxx was from a breeder in my home state of Minnesota. I don't think the breeder breeds shepherds anymore, if she did, I'd be inclined to get another one from her because Maxx is a rock star.

Maxx is in therapy training and a lot of my peers almost condemn getting a dog from even a reputable breeder. Like, literaly look at me with disdain for having gotten Maxx at 8 weeks from a breeder on a farm in central Minnesota after losing our two chows to old age. I was a little shell shocked, as I had a hard time seeing the difference between a puppy from a shelter and one from a breeder. They're both completely vulnerable and dependent on you. They both need affection and shelter. I understand that breeders sell more puppies than shelters find homes for strays. Is that the main issue?

Does that mean there should be a shift where shelters have no problem adopting out all dogs, but breeders have trouble finding homes for their puppies? And hopefully it will encourage most breeders to shut down their operation? Is that the goal? From what I gathered from many of my peers in the therapy training classes I've taken, this would be a dream come true and this is what they advocate.

I'm sure there is a large debate. My whole life we'd only gotten dogs from breeders (3 dogs in my life time of 25 years). Those peers did quite a good job of guilting me into wanting to adopt (tongue in cheek).

I would LOVE to rescue a dog that might be a perfect fit for me. Maybe I'm being picky, in that I'm looking for a very young (mainly because I want to train and nip any bad habits in the bud) female black and tan. Maxx is a 6-year old neutered male and I LOVE the breed. Before I was born, my famly had shepherds.

What happened to getting a dog because you love the breed and you love their traits. I am an animal lover. I adore certain dog breeds over others, but I would never shun another dog because of its breed or because where it comes from. My SIL has a Yorkie which is pure evil and drives me bananas. Seriously, he is Satan's lap dog and needs Cesar, Victoria, Boot Camp whatever...but I can't even count the number of times he and I have fallen asleep curled up with each other on the couch, or that I've given him kisses. I just prefer big dogs. I like shepherds because they don't yip. Because they are incredible intelligent, astute and eager to please. They're gut-wrenchingly handsome. They have such a warm demeanor and loyalty. I find this true for most shepherds...on their own, regardless of how much their owners have worked with them. And maybe someone seeks that out and the best place is from interviewing several breeders and maybe visiting local shepherds or keeping an eye on the rescue boards on this site.

Is it really wrong to want that?


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## jsherry (Nov 19, 2004)

I'm partial to a breeder myself. I want to make sure that I have a dog with no baggage that I do not know about. 

I cannot imagine my friends trying to guilt me into something. As long as you are happy with your dog don't worry about it. I know I wouldn't!


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## ninhar (Mar 22, 2003)

I will always go through a rescue or shelter for any pet, but I don't expect everyone to feel that way. There is nothing at all wrong with getting a puppy from a reputable breeder. Don't let anyone guilt you into something that isn't right FOR YOU.


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## chuckstar158 (Sep 8, 2004)

I'm a rescue dog person myself. My belief is that you can better tell what you're getting in terms of personality, looks and bonus... you're saving a life.

All of my dogs have been shelter/rescue dogs and never had a problem.

P.S. Don't let your friends guilt you. Nothing wrong with a rescue dog or a breeder dog. It's what you want.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

If I was to get a puppy breeder all the way
I wish I could adopt a shelter dog


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks for bringing this up. That is another issue for me...the baggage.

I'm 25. I'm going to want to have kids soon. My fiance has a 6 year old daughter. I'm nervous about a potential liability. I hate to call a shelter dog a liability, but I hope my intent is understood.

If something happened to me, Maxx could very well end up in a shelter and he is an amazing dog.

For the record, they weren't exactly friends, but classmates in the therapy training. I'd say 90% adopt and have 3-4 dogs each, all from shelters. There were maybe 6 of us who had obvious pure breds (although most people think Maxx is a funny looking lab). There was one woman who knew she wanted to do therapy, sought out a reputable doberman breeder (her logic was she loves the breed, they have a stigma, get a therapy doberman and change the stigma - I dig it). Once Ranger (her doberman) was born, she sent out an email about how excited she was. Then photos. Then, few months later, when the technical training class started, people would almost glare with contempt. Yes, she had his ears cropped and tail docked, which is debate all its own, but they almost turned their noses up at people with purebreds from breeders in a holier than thou way.

I am not making blanket statements here...I've met PLENTY of people who rescue because they want to rescue and they want to help, but respect someone's preference from getting a dog from a breeder. I'm just trying to get to the meat of the issue.


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## Ilovealldogs (Nov 17, 2006)

How about one from a rescue? There are pros and cons to adopting one from a shelter just as there are with using a breeder. I think using a rescue is great because most of the dogs have been pulled out of shelters and placed in a foster home where they have experienced a home life for several weeks, maybe months. At this time, the dog receives age appropriate shots, spay/neuter, tested/treated for heartworms, etc. The dog will learn apprpriate doggie manners and have worked on housebreaking and crate-training. 

People throw the term "breeder" around and that can mean a variety of things. Is it really a puppy mill? A backyard breeder? Someone who has no idea what they are doing? Or could it be that the person is actually reputable and has many years of experience, etc.? Not all breeders are bad, but not all breeders are good either. You must do your homework if you go that route.

A dog from a shelter can be a mixed blessing. I have one rescued from a kill shelter and one I literally rescued off of the streets. They both had/have some issues, but I wouldn't trade them for anything. If the dog came in as a stray, the shelter has no background on the dog and you may not know what type of dog you are getting. Dogs generally act different in a kennel type environment. For many dogs, such as GSDs, they get stressed out, hyper, pace, and may look like awful pets. Others may act the opposite and withdraw, cower, hide in the corner. I have rescued many dogs out of kill shelters for a local rescue and I have seen all types, but many act completely different than they act in the shelter.


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## chuckstar158 (Sep 8, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: SharkB8If something happened to me, Maxx could very well end up in a shelter and he is an amazing dog.


This happens more than you could ever realize.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

It is a personal choice and neither one is wrong – IF you go through a responsible breeder.

Sasha I adopted based only on a picture. I never met her in person but I had someone check to be sure she was ok with other dogs. She is turning out to be my DHs little girl (she likes me, she LOVES him). I was really missing having a Shepherd and part of me wanted to save one from being killed. She is showing signs of wanting to be the alpha bitch in the house – which may cause a problem with my Corgi mix Winnie. We’ll see how things progress.

Mauser we got from a responsible breeder. We were going to wait until spring to get a puppy from a breeder I had selected (another responsible breeder) when things just happened and I found out Mauser was available. I talked with Trish, his breeder, and made sure he would be a good fit for us – and then we went and got him.

If we had adopted a puppy from a shelter and found out it was way too much drive for us or we got an older dog and found out it didn’t get along with other dogs – then we would have had a problem and most likely the dog would have gone back to the shelter.

We should be supporting responsible breeders as well as shelters. If all the irresponsible breeders were eliminated there would be a HUGE decrease in the shelter/rescue populations.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

There's nothing wrong with wanting to buy a puppy from a breeder, nor is there anything wrong with getting a dog from an animal shelter or rescue. The only thing that I consider wrong is buying a dog from a BAD breeder. One of my pet peeves is people helping to support breeders who don't bother to health check (meaning certification of their own breeding dogs as well as the parents/grandparents of those dogs), don't bother to really check the lines of the dogs to understand what they're breeding together (health, temperament, standard, etc), and don't breed for solid temperament and workability. I also dislike breeders who are pushing for "rare" colors or other traits that are considered bad by the breed standard. The standard is there to help maintain a continuity to the looks and ability of the dogs and to deliberately breed outside of it in order to make money is just wrong.

We need GOOD breeders, in all breeds. We need breeders who are concentrating on health and temperament and proper instinct for our breeds. Many, if not most, purebred dogs that end up in animal shelters are not from good breeders and if we all stop buying from good breeders then they will stop producing and most of our breeding "stock" will end up being the dogs from the breeders who aren't worried about health and temperament problems. And we know where that will end.

I'm on a chow forum and they really push the rescue there - some try to make people feel absolutely guilty if they buy from a breeder. I always try to stand up for the good breeders, but with the health problems in that breed I just can't condone anyone breeding without doing the health certifications. Too many out there just pop their dogs together to make some money and that's why 47% (at least) of chows have elbow dysplasia and some end up with ED and hip dysplasia so bad that they're euthanized before they're even full grown. 

So if you buy from a good breeder, then there's nothing wrong with it in my eyes. If you buy from a bad breeder, you're helping to continue bad breeding, so that would be wrong to me. If you're rescuing, then that's fine too. I don't think someone who rescues is a better person than someone who buys from a good breeder, however. I've done both, don't regret going either way but don't feel like I did better when I rescued.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

My first 2 GSD's came from breeders. One many years ago from a lady near Rochester, MN. My second from a breeder in SE Wisconsin, about three years ago.

I also foster rescue dogs through a group in Wisconsin. I have had only a few rescues under the age of one. However, both were great, and have made nice pets for the families that adopted them.

You mentioned breeders having trouble placing their dogs, but that is not the case with my breeder. She has been breeding Shepherds for the past twenty years or more, and her dogs are placed quickly. Frankly, most of the good breeders I know have no trouble placing their dogs.

Your description of the idea Shepherd is right on. I also think you want a companion dog, and not a dog for advanced SCH Training or high end protection work.

With the said, a good rescue can place a nice dog with you, although I will add that with my rescue, the pups go fast.

If you want more specific suggestions regarding a good rescue group, or a good breeder in your neighboring Stae of Wisconsin send me a personal E Mail.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: IlovealldogsHow about one from a rescue?
> 
> <snip>
> 
> People throw the term "breeder" around and that can mean a variety of things. Is it really a puppy mill? A backyard breeder? Someone who has no idea what they are doing? Or could it be that the person is actually reputable and has many years of experience, etc.?


I am totally in support of rescues and I think it's imperative for all breeds. If there were more, there would be less dogs in shelters. 

I realize breeders is misused frequently, that's why I said "reputable." 

The same goes with pet shop dogs. I know people who don't support pet shops, but go to the mall to buy some shoes and love X breed and see a pitiful one in the window. How is that puppy's life different/better/than a shelter dog or a dogs from a breeder. It's still a life in need of love.

One woman who'd gone through the program a few classes before mine was at the mall with her husband and loves Matiffs. There was a puppy in the window and she felt so bad. She didn't want to fund puppy mills by buying him, but he looked so terrible in the window. She told her husband how bad she felt and he actually went back to the store on his own and bought him to bring home to her for Christmas and he is now the dog she does her therapy with.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

Another concern I failed to mention...

We did get Maxx from a breeder. We did ask about breed health problems. They said hip dysplasia, but they were hip checked and we were in the clear.

Maxx ended up with a wretched case of gastric torsion. We had a brutal time with his diagnosis and surger and recovery and he still suffers on occasion. My parents had shepherds. I was 19 when we got him, so I had no idea how to really research the breed...and it'd been years since my parents had shepherds.

I now know what to ask of a breeder, versus going to a shelter and having a tougher time getting the medical history of a particular dog's line.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestI'm on a chow forum and they really push the rescue there - some try to make people feel absolutely guilty if they buy from a breeder. I always try to stand up for the good breeders, but with the health problems in that breed I just can't condone anyone breeding without doing the health certifications. Too many out there just pop their dogs together to make some money and that's why 47% (at least) of chows have elbow dysplasia and some end up with ED and hip dysplasia so bad that they're euthanized before they're even full grown.


Wow...I had no idea the quality of the chow breed was in such turmoil. We talked about getting a mastiff and asked a few kennels if they knew of good breeders and they told us to forget about it for a few years, since the local breeders they knew off we carelessly breeding dogs who are fine when young and then turn on their owners and tend to develop aggressive tendencies.

I whole-heartedly agree with your good-breeder theory. That is really a good point. There's a reason most of us have chosen a German shepherd, or why anyone chooses any breed. Like I said, for those specific traits that we love and appreciate. And if there are breeders who don't care to preserve or enhance those traits, and people continue to support them, they will never go away, and neither will the ailing dogs that create.


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

I was just wondering after reading

you say Maxx could end up in a shelter if something happened to you

Why would you want to get another dog either from breeder or rescue if you are not sure what will happen to the one you have?


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Count BrunoI was just wondering after reading
> 
> you say Maxx could end up in a shelter if something happened to you
> 
> Why would you want to get another dog either from breeder or rescue if you are not sure what will happen to the one you have?


It was sort of a hypothetical. I could be hit by a meteor, my family could become refugees, my fiance could run off with someone more charming than I am and Maxx could end up in a shelter. Meaning, there are plenty of lovable family pets in shelters. 

What I was trying to say was that there are plenty of people who have a great life and a great dog and some major event happen to them where they can no longer care for their pet, and maybe they don't have a back up family waiting in line, so they are forced to take a great dog to a shelter. I was setting up an example for the other side of the argument as to why shelter dogs should be considered.

Like another *chuckstar* mentioned, it happens more often than we know.


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## dhonner (Nov 27, 2007)

I have had two of my own (not counting the shepherds we had growing up); Allie was from a breeder, the other, Samson is from a rescue/shelter. 

Based on my experience with Samson, I will only ever adopted from a shelter again. I would work through a rescue but Samson came from the shelter, as a stray (prob dumped in the park where he was picked up) and I just can't explain what an absolute gift he has been. 

He had some issues - separation anxiety (I would too if someone dumped me), acclimation issues, etc. We worked with an amazing training and who helped us help him understand what we needed him to do. What I learned was that despite how he was treated, this beautiful animal adapted and is the most fun to have. I am sure that there are situations where this doesn't always work; having been through this with Samson, I would be better prepared and knowledgeable working with an older, re-homed dog. And if I will do it again in a heartbeat. 

Any issues that we have now are mine, not his! Good luck to you.


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## AllisonS (Oct 16, 2007)

I do a little of both. Let me say, though, that my two best dogs have been shelter dogs. One of them had been abused and STILL turned out to be incredible. My AKC GSD that I got as a puppy from a reputable breeder is gorgeous but **** on wheels.







My abused Pit Bull from a shelter is SUCH a good girl.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I am against breeders because there are to many doing it WRONG, and that is mostly why we need shelters. They do it for money, they are to lazy to get a job, or they are just to stupid to get their dog speutered!! They breed health issues, do not socalize, etc. 

RESEARCH, RESEARCH and then do more research before you buy from a breeder. There are good ones that respect the breed as you do. I agree with your orginal post. 

I bought, a dog from a breeder, out of the paper,








had a extreme health issue, my fault I did not do enough research. From now on I will always rescue, to give the dogs from bad breeders and bad owners a home. 

Because there is always a risk of health or behavior issues even if you do, the research, SO WHY NOT SAVE A LIFE? Even more so now with the overpopulation, the ecom...blah, blah...

Last checked there are 15 dogs in shelters for every person, not household, person...I have a family of 5, we should have 75 dogs, instead of 4...


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## Spiritsmam (Nov 10, 2007)

I believe that it is an individuals choice where they get their dog/puppy, but say no matter which, you need to do your homework and know what you are getting in to.

Personally, I take in the rejects that no one wants, the old and the disabled. They all come with baggage, some of it extreme, but that's ok, this is what I was put on this earth to do. I will never be financially rich or have a nice house, nor will I ever be able to show or compete in any dog sport. I tolerate the sometimes unpleasant comments made about my dogs, and thank God that they don't understand the English language.

Why do I do this? Simple ... as the poem about the starfish put it I can make a difference and give a chance to a couple of dogs who literally stood no chance.


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

I personally can't stand the "nazi" advocates of adopting, the people that push you are "killing" a dog if you don't adopt. 

I think adoption is great, I think if you can and you want to you should. There are plenty of good dogs in shelters that need homes. 

But like anything, it is a personal decision. It has its own benefits and its own drawbacks.

Getting a puppy has benefits and it has drawbacks. 

Do what is right for you. 

My first dog I wanted a puppy, plain and simple. My next will probably be adopted. It is so sad reading the adoption pages and the stories with the dogs, how people treat animals that bad just floors me.

But as others have said, either way: DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!

If you get a puppy, read up on how to properly socialize it, how to train it, how to ensure it doesn't end up a rescued dog itself.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

But what about those of us who DO do our research. I know the breed inside and out and know our breeders inside and out? And hose breeders who do go above and beyond to ensure their dogs are quality, healthy dependable dogs?

I get the sense that a lot of people who only adopt from rescues/shelters still condemn the above mentioned practices.

My question remains, why?

*Spiritsmam*, I admire what you were put on this earth to do. I feel like it takes a special person to do what you, and many others who have chimed in here, to do what you do. 

I have never tried the shelter/rescue route. We've only ever adopted. I've made my mistakes of not researching a breed, and fortunately, it worked out. My old roommate and I got a sickly-looking Jack Russell from a dingy pet store. We'd never had Jack Russells, let alone terriers before. My personality was WAY too laid back for Chowder (he was almost all white). As it worked out, on of our interns' mothers Jack Russells was hit by a car a few months earlier. She knew/loved the breed. Was in need of a new friend and it was a match made in heaven.

Honestly, I've put a lot of effort into researching shepherds and I love them and I can't really picture my life without one. This breed is the best for me as my love for shepherds is unconditional.

I've been looking for a new addition to our family for over a year now. It has taken so long because I do want to find the dog that I feel chemistry with right off the bat. I check Craigslist, shelters, petfinder and breeders and I haven't found her yet. It's nice to hear that most of you on this board are not judgmental like my classmates. It extends beyond the classroom as well. Coworkers, strangers I meet at the dog park. It's a little bizarre. I understand where they are coming from, but making people who love their dogs feel like crud for loving someone from a breeder is not going to change the problems with bad breeders. It's almost as if they assume anyone with a purebred got them from a puppy mill whether directly or indirectly. With me, as I'm sure with many of you, they're preaching to the choir.


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## doxsee (Jun 14, 2007)

I think it's a personal decision, and done correctly, both are great choices. Like many other people have mentioned, it must be from a responsible breeder though.

I chose to get my pup from a responsible working line breeder. I made this choice because I have very specific goals for my girl, and also because the breeder support is amazing and I need that with my first GSD.

About a year ago, there was a wonderful GSD/Husky mix at my local humane society. I went to visit him so I could get some more information for GSD rescue groups. To put it simply, if would have had a house at the time, he'd have gone home with me. Though I have so far gotten my dogs from breeders, I wouldn't hesitate for a second if the right rescue dog came along.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Having a GSD x chow rescue with some baggage, I have to say that if you appreciate a training challenge and want to learn the most you can about dog behavior (and have a GREAT trainer or other resource), a rescue with baggage is fun. That's probably one of the most loaded statements in the world as you have to have the right kind of baggage for what you're seeking and if you get in over your head, then it gets very rough. In fact, your life could end up topsy-turvy. You could end up with health AND behavior problems! On the flip side, if a foster has had a dog for awhile, they can tell you much about the dog's behavior and if it's grown, you won't have many surprises- what you see is what you get. If you go with a GOOD breeder, you could still have health and temperament problems but the risks of both are reduced. Buy into the best genetics and your pup may only be limited by your skills as a trainer and handler. But again, if you go with the wrong breeder or if the genetic magic wand falls on your pup at the wrong angle, then well, stuff happens. Also, some people just aren't great at raising puppies. They require LOADS of patience, tons of socialization, and of course a convenient work schedule. Some people can ruin a puppy yet allow an adult to thrive.

My next route will either be a VERY very stable rescue or a pup from an excellent breeder. The second dog I get needs to be very strong in the areas where Renji is weak; I want a good influence, a dog who is easygoing, less suspicious, more people-friendly, calmer, stronger nerved. All this in the hopes of setting a better example for my "opposite of all that."


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I am torn, myself... I had been planning to get a GSD from a breeder for a long while. Then I was looking at rescues more recently. 
My main issue is that my last two dogs (terrier mix and a Golden) both had hip problems and I want to avoid going through that again if possible (plus I like to be very active with my dogs) so I was leaning towards getting a dog from a breeder where the parents/grandparents etc have had their hips checked. 
However, my last two dogs were both strays off the streets and they were awesome dogs. In the beginning they had some things we had to work through and needed some training but it did not take long to get past their issues. My Golden was shy/scare of many things in the beginning but she got over her fears quickly and turned into the typical happy friendly Golden and became a therapy dog. I did tons of activities/training with her such as agility, obedience, flyball, animal-assisted therapy, carting, etc... She was an amazing dog and the most laid-back tolerant dog I've met (basically the opposite of my terrier lol-- he was a great dog too but totally terrier in personality). So I know you can get a great dog with an awesome temperament by rescuing... The main thing I am concerned about with a rescue GSD personally is health with all the problems in the breed.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

That is a tough one! I got Angeles because I wanted a purebred....even though 3 of my dogs since 1995 had been rescues and mixes and all turned out to be awesome dogs. The other purebred I have is Louis, my weenie dog (I never can spell daushund!) I did a lot of research to find good parents/lineage. However, there is not 100% guarantee that the purebred puppy will not have issues....but if from a good line, then the likely hood of having bad hips is reduced. Here is an option - if you find a GSD that you like at a rescue, have the hips and elbows x-rayed. I wouldn't say do this for every rescue you find....but you might find one you could be attached too with a good temperament, etc... and the hips/elbows could be just fine. I will not know until Angeles' 2nd birthday if he is going to pass his hips/elbows - I feel he will....but still have to wait! If he turns out not to have good hips/elbows I'm not going to return him, which most breeders will allow you to do or give you another puppy from a future litter or a refund....I chose to stick it out with my boy whichever way he goes when xrayed - he is too awesome!

Your heart is in the right place....do what you feel is going to work in your situation and just don't rush to judgement on what to do - take some time to really think both scenarios through. The right answer will present itself.


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## ninhar (Mar 22, 2003)

> Quote:I get the sense that a lot of people who only adopt from rescues/shelters still condemn the above mentioned practices.
> 
> My question remains, why?


Why..... because when you have walked through shelter after shelter and have seen the amount of purebred dogs in need of homes that it changes your perspective. Unless you are dealing with a breed that is lower in popularity, the amount of dogs in rescue puts only a small dent in the number of dogs in shelters. 

Don't automatically assume that all or most dogs in shelters or rescues have issues. Especially in economic times like we have now. A lot of great dogs are in shelters through absolutely no fault of their own.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I am totally in support of rescues and I think it's imperative for all breeds. If there were more, there would be less dogs in shelters.


No. I'm sorry but this is not a solution. The people in rescue are volunteers waging an endless war against the death and destruction of the dogs we all love. Rescue isn't a hobby and more rescues isn't a solution. What we need are fewer dogs. In your original post you seem to be saying that shelters and rescue are perhaps jealous of the higher numbers of breeders but that's really not it. It's not jealousy, it's knowing that what they are doing is filling the shelters we're trying so hard to empty and in one litter they can undo months, years even, of our efforts. 

Every purebred dog in a shelter came from a breeder of some sort. Maybe a good breeder, maybe not. Every dog with a purebred parent came from a purebred dog sold unaltered (as nearly all of them are). The reason rescue people sometimes seem down on breeders is because as a group they are a huge reason we watch so many dogs die. When you've held healthy loving animals down as they tried to give you kisses while the needle went it and then bagged their limp bodies up and heaved them into the freezer, it tends to give you some additional perspective. 

Now, I think there is a place for GOOD breeders. I really do. I am not anti breeder by any stretch of the imagination. If we don't have good breeders, we lose the source of good dogs. I've bought two dogs in my life and some day I may do so again. My beef is not with all breeders. 

But it's silly to suggest that the purebred breeding of dogs, when taken as a whole, isn't substantially contributing to pet overpopulation. Good breeders take their dogs back, but even the best breeders typically do not take responsibility for second generation litters out of their dogs - that is, they sell a dog, that dog is bred, either accidently or on purpose, the puppies may be purebred or not, they wind up in a shelter. Whose problem are they now? Most breeders feel that at that point it is out of their hands and the responsibility of the new owner. But if the new owner doesn't take responsibility, where do those dogs end up? 

When we buy dogs, we encourage more breeding. So, as others have said, let's be super sure that we are only encouraging the very best breeders and not the other ones. I don't condemn other people for buying a dog from a really reputable breeder but it's the feeling of being overwhelmed by the number of homeless dogs, MANY of which are purebred, MOST of which have zero issues, that we just can't save that drives the attitude you're observing.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

I by no means assume anything.

That was why I mentioned earlier that no one knows what tomorrow may bring and my dog, who I think is the bee's knees, may end up in a shelter.

I mentioned before that I am willing to check both. And I have been checking both shelters, rescues and breeders and after a year, have still not found a dog I have chemistry with and feel would be the right fit for me.

I understand what you say about exposing yourself to the shelter scene so much that your perspective changes. Believe me, I am hyperaware of the dogs in shelters in need of loving homes. And my heart aches for them and I will direct them to people who I think might be a good fit when applicable. 

My question still remains for those people who don't care whether or not a person has researched the breed and found a reputable breeder.

I feel like people get so angry when they find out you got your dog from a breeder...and this sentiment smothers the fact that maybe you got your pet from a breeder because you wanted to. Or wanted a trait. Or loved the breed. Or because a dog is a dog is a dog. Not because you don't care that are plenty of dogs needing home in shelters and want to stick it to them. That is what I don't wholly understand.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Shark, I think many of us are angry at people who go to pet stores and backyard breeders for dogs. Those who breed for kicks n' giggles, for money, without much regard for bringing forth the best dogs possible considering the fact that those puppies will mean less homes for other dogs. I cannot stand it when people support pet stores or "Christmas puppies." However, if we all stopped supporting breeders, all we would have left are those dogs. If you feel more comfortable going with a breeder, then find the best you can (note that this does not mean the flashiest/most expensive). If people decry your choice, WHO CARES?! Only YOU have to live with YOUR dog, they don't. You will never be able to please anyone, but if you make the right choice, you and your dog will be thrilled and that is all that really matters.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Well, it's still a question of priorities isn't it? Every time you get a dog you have the option to save a life, and hopefully get the exact dog you wanted in the bargain, or you can go with choosing the breeder route and get exactly what you want when you want it, and not feel like you need to help all the dogs out there dying for a home. 

When I get my next SAR dog, I may be in that boat. I'm going to be looking for something extremely specific. I would prefer to find that in rescue, but if I can't then I will likely to be getting a dog from a breeder that I feel meets the highest ethical standards. But I'll do that because I want what I want and I'll do it knowing that my choice puts those wants ahead of helping out a needy dog. When someone rescues a dog, they are putting the priority of saving a life first which is something quite different.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqNo. I'm sorry but this is not a solution.


I'm not saying it is an ideal solution, but the logic remains that _because_ there are crusaders who rescue dogs and foster/rehabilitate them and find them great homes, there are less dogs in shelters. Without the rescues, there would be more. I'm not at all saying this is the solution.



> Originally Posted By: pupresqIn your original post you seem to be saying that shelters and rescue are perhaps jealous of the higher numbers of breeders but that's really not it. It's not jealousy, it's knowing that what they are doing is filling the shelters we're trying so hard to empty and in one litter they can undo months, years even, of our efforts.


I'm not sure how you got this out of my original post at all.



> Originally Posted By: pupresqThe reason rescue people sometimes seem down on breeders is because as a group they are a huge reason we watch so many dogs die. When you've held healthy loving animals down as they tried to give you kisses while the needle went it and then bagged their limp bodies up and heaved them into the freezer, it tends to give you some additional perspective.


This makes sense to me, but again, I feel that people who get from a breeder are immediately viewed as someone who careless got some purebred trophy from some backyard breeder and will not be able to handle the dog and end up dropping it off at a shelter. Seriously. Regardless of how much research and effort you have done to find your dog. I just think it's unfair to judge someone for having a purebred from a breeder without knowing _why_ they decided to get a purebred. Which is what I have experienced on several different occasions. 



> Originally Posted By: pupresqWhen we buy dogs, we encourage more breeding. So, as others have said, let's be super sure that we are only encouraging the very best breeders and not the other ones. I don't condemn other people for buying a dog from a really reputable breeder but it's the feeling of being overwhelmed by the number of homeless dogs, MANY of which are purebred, MOST of which have zero issues, that we just can't save that drives the attitude you're observing.


Agreed. There is definitely room for educating the general public on what a huge responsibility getting a dog is period. Then making sure they are knowledgeable enough to expect and deal with certain breed attributes, whether desirable or undesirable.

I understand the frustration and the anger you (and others) must feel, but the anger, often (and maybe less than it should be), is directed at the wrong people. 

For example, first day of a class, doing intros. I mentioned that I got Maxx from a breeder in Minnesota, and there was an audible grumble and I thought one lady was gonna vomit she looked so disgusted.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMOnly YOU have to live with YOUR dog, they don't. You will never be able to please anyone


This is key. And I realize that...I'm just trying to get to the crux of the people who generalize and make up their minds about going to a breeder and lumping me in with someone who got a puppy because it's trendy from a non-reputable breeder. As if I have complete disregard for dogs lives. That's what frustrates me and I try to understand. There are plenty of people who have both shelter dogs and dogs from breeders. Those people who mention their purebred breeder dog first, still got the groans. Then they mention adopting another dog, and it almost appeared people were still reeling from the breeder thing that they didn't even notice.

Maybe it's a Rhode Island thing


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:For example, first day of a class, doing intros. I mentioned that I got Maxx from a breeder in Minnesota, and there was an audible grumble and I thought one lady was gonna vomit she looked so disgusted.


How much you want to bet they're card-carrying members of PETA? Oh well! Ignore them or find a new class away from the "holier than thou" crowd. What did the trainer say or do? If the trainer joined in with their jeers- even rolled eyes-, then drop the class like a radioactive potato.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqWhen I get my next SAR dog, I may be in that boat. I'm going to be looking for something extremely specific. I would prefer to find that in rescue, but if I can't then I will likely to be getting a dog from a breeder that I feel meets the highest ethical standards. But I'll do that because I want what I want and I'll do it knowing that my choice puts those wants ahead of helping out a needy dog. When someone rescues a dog, they are putting the priority of saving a life first which is something quite different.


Yeah, but the fact that you're getting a dog for SAR, even from a breeder, is already showing that you're putting others and the priority of possibly saving a life first.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

You might just be in that "special crowd." If you tell them about the trophy buck you shot and mounted/jerkied, you may have a roomful of fainted ladies. 

ETA: I do not mean anything nasty! Sometimes you just get the picture that you're in a crowd of people who follow trends mindlessly and one of the latest trends is SHELTER DOGS (helped made more popular with lots of shows on Animal Planet). Now this isn't a bad thing, but when you have people who treat it as the fashionable thing to do without THINKING THROUGH the whole deal, well, here we are: breeders are evil, adopt a poor defenseless shelter dog and BE SUPERWONDERUBERMAN. I support good breeders, I support shelters and rescues, but above all I support *the right household for the right dog so both dog and human win.*


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:but the logic remains that because there are crusaders who rescue dogs and foster/rehabilitate them and find them great homes, there are less dogs in shelters. Without the rescues, there would be more.


but it feeds into the idea that "rescues" are some special resource that absorbs these unwanted dogs or that we're "crusaders" or whatever, when the reality is that we're regular people, just like anyone else, and we are making huge personal and financial sacrifices to do this - and we'd ALL rather be doing something else but we don't feel like we can because we feel a greater responsibility for helping the dogs who end up homeless than either the people who created them or the people that bought them. 



> Quote:I'm not sure how you got this out of my original post at all.


It was from this statement:


> Quote: I understand that breeders sell more puppies than shelters find homes for strays. Is that the main issue?





> Quote: I just think it's unfair to judge someone for having a purebred from a breeder without knowing why they decided to get a purebred.


Do please remember that someone can decide to get a purebred and still get a dog from a rescue or shelter. But as far as being judged for buying a dog from a breeder instead of rescuing one, regardless of how much research you did, the bottom line is that you put your own desire to have exactly what you wanted it when you wanted it over saving a life. That doesn't make you a horrible person but it is what it is.







If you are okay with that, then why let these people's comments bother you? 

ETA - I'm sorry if I'm coming off as particularly grouchy tonight. I had a bad fall this morning and spent the day in the ER and am now on a lot of drugs.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMHow much you want to bet they're card-carrying members of PETA? Oh well! Ignore them or find a new class away from the "holier than thou" crowd. What did the trainer say or do? If the trainer joined in with their jeers- even rolled eyes-, then drop the class like a radioactive potato.


I get their cause, but, dude, I'm a nice lady. I love dogs. I adore my dog. Maxx probably could classify as special needs in regards to the constant monitoring required of his gastric torsion. And when hit with thousands of dollars of vet bills, emergency room visits, surgeries, I could've said, "forget all this!" and dropped him of at the ASPCA. Even if I explain what I've been through with Maxx, I'm still not awesome enough. 

Don't get me wrong, this isn't keeping me up at night or anything. I just got the thinking as I was browsing rescues sites and shelters today. The gears were a-turnin' and I just wondered exactly why the blanket generalizations for people who give a hoot when it comes to getting from a breeder, who also gives a hoot.



> Originally Posted By: DianaMWhat did the trainer say or do? If the trainer joined in with their jeers- even rolled eyes-, then drop the class like a radioactive potato.


She doesn't judge anyone at all for it, she just loves all dogs and doesn't care where they came from. But obviously appreciates the work of shelter workers and those who rescue a dog.

Luckily, I'm out of the class portion and on to the internship phase where I only allow 6th-graders to judge me.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMSometimes you just get the picture that you're in a crowd of people who follow trends mindlessly and one of the latest trends is SHELTER DOGS (helped made more popular with lots of shows on Animal Planet).


I think you've hit the nail on the head.

(regarding the people I've come in contact with)...


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Even if I explain what I've been through with Maxx, I'm still not awesome enough.


Says who? If you were able to ask your dog, Maxx would probably sing your praises from the hills. All you have to do is look into his eyes to know just how awesome you are. The opinion of your dog should be all that matters.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My husband surprised us with Onyx-from a breeder. I was upset that he didn't rescue. If he wanted us to have a dog, he should have saved one, was my opinion. I then went and did rescue Kacie. My next GSD~I want a dark sable male and that will be hard to find in a shelter. I will probably go with a breeder, here in my state...Onyx and Kacie are both NOT SchH. material and I want to pursue this sport more, so a breeder is the answer, unless a nice black sable boy like the one in urgent recently appears again... http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=882609&page=2#Post882609

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=12480658 he was re-claimed by his owner what a beauty!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I can't imagine looking for and at dogs for a year! 

If there is a mindless trend that it is okay to save lives, I am for it. 

If we could match that with good education on what a reputable breeder is and does, even better. 

That way people would be making informed choices. Both sides of the coin. 

Because quite frankly, I have had the opposite experience of people looking at my "novelty" dogs in two training places I've gone to as if they smelled something really bad. "What is that a mix of? Oh...my. Well, I got Queen Sunshine Out Her Butt from Meinnnnnnnnnnnfellllllllllllllllllle. Don't know if you've heard of them?" 

Uh, yeah, they don't take their dogs back when rescue calls.







Then again, maybe Sunshine's mom just didn't like me and there is a reason for that!









There are breeders on this board that have shown me that there are MAJOR differences in reputability. Same as rescues! And for the good ones of both, I would be glad to get a dog.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:
> If there is a mindless trend that it is okay to save lives, I am for it.


Sure, as long as the rescuers know what they're doing or are prepared. How many dogs are adopted and then returned- or worse? When it comes to adopting or purchasing an animal, ANY animal, "mindless" should be the last trait to be involved in the process.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

The idea is to save lives. 

You called it a mindless trend, and hadn't edited at that point, but regardless, people in rescue are probably more serious than you can even imagine about the lives of these animals, for the entire lifetime of the pet. 

There is no WAY that there are as many good homes as there are good dogs, and there is nothing we can do to force that square peg in the round hole of logic. Nathan Winograd is trying though.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Jean, I'm not slighting one bit the rescues, those who work their butts off for dumped dogs, those who spend day in and day out on the rescue threads, fostering, dealing with owners who wish to dump. Not one bit. I do not think highly of those who jump into pet ownership irresponsibly, be it purchasing or adopting. I think you and I are in that same boat. That is what I see as a mindless trend. I *LOVE* that rescuing is now getting so popular, but when it crosses into "too popular" that again dogs are suffering, that I don't like. It's a fine line that really has no hard and fast definition. I know someone who rescued a stray dog. Now they may take the dog to the shelter. A black mixed breed in a shelter around here? Might as well just hop to the bar and order up a euthanasia cocktail.







That infuriates me. That I would say is mindless. Now if they worked to rehome, that is not.

Clear as mud? I'm on your side even if my posts aren't well written enough!


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## ninhar (Mar 22, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: SharkB8This makes sense to me, but again, I feel that people who get from a breeder are immediately viewed as someone who careless got some purebred trophy from some backyard breeder and will not be able to handle the dog and end up dropping it off at a shelter. Seriously. Regardless of how much research and effort you have done to find your dog. I just think it's unfair to judge someone for having a purebred from a breeder without knowing _why_ they decided to get a purebred. Which is what I have experienced on several different occasions.





> Quote:For example, first day of a class, doing intros. I mentioned that I got Maxx from a breeder in Minnesota, and there was an audible grumble and I thought one lady was gonna vomit she looked so disgusted.


Are you sure that those were reactions to your mentioning that Maxx was from a breeder? Maybe the grumble was really a reaction to something else that was going on and you read it wrong? 

I was in a purebreed rescue where 2 of the officers and easily 1/2 of the volunteers had dogs from breeders and none of us with rescue dogs ever looked down on them. Yes, there are rescue people who don't believe that a dog should ever come from anything other than a rescue or shelter, but even among those who have done rescue for years, they are a minority. For the general public who are in a training class....I just don't see it.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

What I got out of the "mindless trend" comment was that some people mainly get a dog from a shelter because it's noble and good and virtuous to rescue a dog from a shelter and getting a dog from a breeder doesn't carry those positive connotations. 

Their primary reasoning is not because they are saving a dog's life, but because they get to SAY they have saved a dogs life. Which they learned about doing from the tee-vee. 

Many learned from TV and adopt because they are saving a life, but again, many do it jut to make themselves look better and so that they can point and put a hex on everyone who they come across who did not get from a shelter.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

But if the dog is in a training class, being well cared for, fed, sheltered appropriately, safely contained, and loved I am about the result not so much the reason. 

Though I do find annoying, as Diana said, the "Ellen" type mindless situations where people take a dog, get rid of a dog, take a dog...irresponsible people who will not think, and basically have transferred the pet shop impulsive purchase to the shelter impuslive adoption.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:But if the dog is in a training class, being well cared for, fed, sheltered appropriately, safely contained, and loved I am about the result not so much the reason.


I couldn't be in more agreement. That doesn't fall under "mindless," that falls under "being prepared." The "Ellen" type as you say, that's exactly what I am getting at. Shelter or breeder, these people clearly should not have a dog, and if they get it from a shelter, yes it is a life saved, but often not for long enough.







That's what is maddening.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

When I someone tells me they got their dog from a breeder, I cannot ask them did you do your research? Who was it? Did you see the Mom, health tests??? etc, etc. 

It is already done, they have the dog or pup. So yea, it makes me cringe, it makes me stomach hurt. Because I look at the dog or the pup and my first thought is I saw 12 of the exact dogs on Petfinder just today. And I want to scream. 
But they are always SO proud. Brag to me about the parents. When I always assume they got it all wrong. Because I know of about a handful of GOOD breeders. The rest do not know what they are doing. 

But I agree with you on loving the breed. Wanting the traits. The breeds preserved and respected. I understand that. 
But the traits are in the GSD's standing cold on a concrete floor at a shelter near you. 

Also the "mindless trend" comment, I understand what Diana M meant, after the second post about it. 

I just want to say, it is my heart to rescue. I want it to be my life. I have to do it. Like someone said earlier. Besides my children, my husband, my friends and family who also believe what I believe, animals are my life. No way a trend. I have been like this since I was a little girl. 

Just to repeat. *SHELTER*, answer to the OP.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Here's my take on it. If Lucy passed and it was time to get another dog I would most certainly rescue.
I got Lucy as a puppy from a breeder who did a lot right. I wanted to make sure the dog I got had a wonderful temperment and this breeder held that goal to be her most important. Her puppies were and are wonderful examples of the breed, and I got exactly what I'd hoped for, with no baggage that I felt incapable of dealing with. It was the right choice for me at the time. Lucy has taught me and continues to teach me every day about being a good dog human. 
I did not even consider rescue at the time for several reasons- one was the only thing I knew about was the pound and I wanted a GSD. I did not know anything about rescue organizations until I came here to this site. Still. I knew (???) that only substandard animals, animals unwanted because of behavioral problems, dangerous dogs that could not be fixed were in rescue. I knew for sure that no dogs like Lucy were in rescue. She was from a breeder and in a different category of dogs. 
I really believed this and am not ashamed to admit it. I just didn't know about the wonderful dogs that are rescued every day by dedicated people who could not bear to see a dog like my Lucy go to the gas chamber. 
I met a rescue dog that I would have taken in a heartbeat this past summer. He was the sweetest thing on the planet- he leaned on my son and stole his heart. Pure sweetness in a GSD body. All he wanted was love. Amazingly he looked a lot like Lucy. Rafe opened up my eyes to what really goes on out there in the real world. He was so close to getting gassed it gives me chills to think about it. The family that gets him will be the luckiest family in the world.
He has been a great ambassador for rescue dogs everywhere in my book, and he is the reason I will not get my next dog from a breeder. But that does not mean that good, responsible breeders and people who buy puppies from them are a bad thing either. We need good dogs. There are plenty of good reasons to buy a puppy from a good breeder. 
But there are many reasons to rescue as well.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I will never buy a dog from a breeder. I have had the good fortune to share my home with dogs for 21 years now and all have been rescues. I have been in countless classes where my dog was the only rescue and/or mixed breed (in Chama's case) and people looked down their noses at me because of it. Ironically, Chama was in an agility class where she was the oldest, the only rescue and the only mix and she was also the smartest dog in the class and caught onto everything way before the other dogs.









I am not a member of PETA but I do actively advocate for rescue dogs. That means that I actively educate people about the dangers of breeding their dogs, buying from bybs and petstores and I also get out and about in the world with my personal dogs who are absolutely wonderful. I tell everyone that they are rescues, let people know that there are rescue organizations for specific breeds and also let them know (by seeing my dogs) that rescue dogs are not inferior to dogs purchased directly from breeders. 

I know that Massie, Chama and Rafi have inspired at least 20 friends, neighbors and family members to rescue dogs. That's not a lot, but every life saved counts. My personal goal is to lower the demand for irresponsibly bred dogs and raise the demand for dogs from shelters and rescues. 

Every dog I've rescued has been different. Some have been perfect from the get go and some have come with lots of issues but all turned out to be wonderful companions and ambassadors for rescue. My most recent adoptee, Rafi, is the most absolutely wonderful companion. He is smart, easy to train, gorgeous, athletic and incredibly sweet. He is just starting to be (appropriately) protective. Everyone loves him and vise-versa. He is a perfect fit for my pack (a senior dog and a senior cat) and my lifestyle which includes lots of traveling with my animals and lots of getting out there in the world. I adopted him about a year ago and he is around 2 years old now. I spent about 2 months looking for the right dog and found him in Cincinnati. 

People say to me all of the time, "How could anyone abandon a dog like that?" I ask how anyone could abandon any animal. No animals deserve to be abandoned but all animals deserve good homes. Not all dogs in shelters or rescues come with "baggage" and many dogs from breeders, even reputable breeders, end up with health and/or behavioral issues. There are no absolute guarantees.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
> I know that Massie, Chama and Rafi have inspired at least 20 friends, neighbors and family members to rescue dogs. That's not a lot, but every life saved counts.


I wonder how many those 20 have inspired?
Were it not for people like you and pupresq, and dogs like Rafe and Rafi, Chama and Massie people like me would not know of the wonderful dogs out there that need homes.
We would not know that these dogs are wonderful animals that came to be homeless through no fault of their own.
I didn't buy my puppy because I wanted a dog for a specific purpose. I wanted a good dog, and that's what I thought I had to do to get one. I do not regret for one second buying her, but now I know better. Every time you post something, everytime people meet your dogs, every single mind you open up.......
It's way more than 20.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Lisa - you are awesome! Rafe and I are thinking of forming a fan club for you and your crew.











One of these days I'll get around to posting some more pics of our watery meet and greet!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

(This is not pointed at anyone in particular).

While I think it's great that some people choose to adopt dogs from shelters and rescues, the reality is that the only way to stop dogs from NEEDING rescued is to stop the <u>bad breeders</u>. Right now the bad breeders depend on people doing the emotional thing and buying that cute little puppy without worrying about the pup's background - and so many of those end up in shelters. 

Good breeders KNOW where they pups they sell end up. And if one somehow ends up in a shelter, they make an effort to rescue that dog themselves. If a breeder's dogs are ending up in shelters/rescues, then that's not a good breeder. Those of you rescuing should not be burdened by the dogs produced by reputable breeders.

I took a full year to find my last chow, and I'm thankful that I did. I found an excellent breeder and have become friends with a group of chowists who are working toward breeding healthy, temperamentally sound chows. This is VITAL in the breed. And I feel the same about GSDs. Shepherds have gotten such a bad reputation and it's very important for good breeders to produce physically and mentally sound shepherds. When I took my shepherd pup in for her first shots, the vet told me "we just don't see many nice shepherds anymore". She says that most are shy, fearful, aggressive. That's the reputation the breed is carrying these days, and that's really bad because it feeds right into BSL.

As I've said, getting a dog from a shelter is great IF that's what a person chooses to do. My Mom just got a GSD mix from the pound last April. I never look down on someone because they don't have a registered dog. And I expect them to not look down at me just because I do. The attitude that "you should ONLY rescue because if you buy from a breeder you're killing dogs in shelters" only does one thing - it turns people away from you and doesn't increase the likelihood that they will adopt from a shelter or rescue. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Those of you rescuing should not be burdened by the dogs produced by reputable breeders.


but we are if any of the dogs they sell have puppies and they do.









As I've said, I'm not condemning anyone for buying a dog and there are a couple breeders on this board that I respect enormously. I'm just saying, when you put reproductive dogs out in the population things can and do happen and the result is more puppies needing homes. 

But I agree with your general point which is that it's important to educate people on the differences between breeders - and ALL dog sources.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Many excellent points have been raised here - I would like to add one more that I don't think has been mentioned (correct me if I'm wrong - it's been a long day!):

Many rescues "know" the dogs that they have in their care very well; for someone who may be reluctant to adopt a shelter dog for fear of the "baggage" that they may have, a rescue may be an excellent resource, as they often have insight into the behaviours and personality of a specific dog, which can help enormously in placing the right dog into the right home - we often think in terms of wanting a dog that fits our perceived needs; while this is true and very important, we also need to consider that we must also fit a dog's specific needs too









Not all rescue/shelter dogs are "damaged" or have permanent "baggage"; there remains, however, a perception that most are. Not all have horrible health issues and baggage that make them "difficult" dogs. Some do, some don't. But in regards to damaged dogs (both physically and psychologically) I think the same can be said for many dogs from many "breeders" - many pups from many breeders will have health and behavioural issues. Some breeders are highly ethical and moral....sadly, I think those that aren't far outweight those that are (look at many shelters and look at the huge numbers of GSDs/GSD mixes as compared to other breeds), this is the primary problem in relation to the high numbers of dogs that are abandoned and are euthanized in the shelter system. 

So in response to the OP's orginal questions (what others' thoughts are re: buying a dog from a breeder versus adopting through a shelter/rescue). Personally, I would opt to adopt. I've seen too many shelter dogs euthanized for lack of space and homes...I've seen their bodies placed into garbage bags and disposed of at the landfill like common household waste and it sickens and saddens me greatly. My one shepherd (Brodie) is a shelter dog and he came to me with alot of baggage (some of which I knew about, some of which I didn't), but he has been a wonderful companion who has positively challenged my abilities as a handler! 

On the other side of the coin, I am also a new addict to the sport of schutzhund thanks to my other dog (a working line GSD) who came to me by fluke through an acquantince. Brodie would have not been a candidate for this sport (due to his age and his behavioural issues) and I recognized this. However, this will not prevent me from looking into another rescue later down the road for whom I and the sport may be a good match . That said, should this not happen, then I may consider a breeder, but only one who has proven him/herself to be one who is truly concerned about the true welfare, wellbeing, and best interests of their dogs. 

Pupresq, you made a good point in your above post when you said:

"but we are if any of the dogs they sell have puppies"

Maybe someone who is more familiar with breeders etc can address this better, but there are some breeders who have contracts whereby their pups must be speutered (unless they agree upon a very specific breeding contract) and this is followed up on. Do most reputable, ethical breeders follow this? If so, would this then mean that once again the primary problem lies therein with poor breeders? I don't know what others thoughts are regarding this, but in my books, I think so.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ninharAre you sure that those were reactions to your mentioning that Maxx was from a breeder? Maybe the grumble was really a reaction to something else that was going on and you read it wrong?
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Yes, there are rescue people who don't believe that a dog should ever come from anything other than a rescue or shelter, but even among those who have done rescue for years, they are a minority. For the general public who are in a training class....I just don't see it.


Yes. I am positive. I don't going around filling in the blanks in a negative way the first chance I get. This was a trend over the period of a year or so. People would talk about their dogs, mention the word breeder, and I knew the faces to check to confirm they were in fact uncomfortable with the breeder issue. I wouldn't bring any of this up at all if I wasn't sure it was the breeder issue. They even said it in their intros, almost to a standing ovation from some. "I got Coco from a shelter. I don't think any dog should ever come from a breeder."

Okay. I'm sorry. I'll take Maxx back. 

Yes, they might be a minority, and whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. I'm learning now through this thread what I set out to learn, and that is why the disdain for ALL people who get from breeders. Aside from an individuals ignorance of generalizing, what the crux of their discomfort is.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

I want to take a quick moment for a side bar.

I want to thank all of you who have chimed in so far and who will later. I really appreciate the time, effort and insight as this was something I'm curious about from time to time.

I appreciate the civility and different opinions as well as the education being exchanged in this discussion.

Honestly, I could've asked the people in my classes, but honestly, I didn't because I knew I wouldn't get any answers like I've gotten in this forum. There was way to much hostility almost and I know they are very passionate about their choice to adopt, but that passion was redirected as anger to those of us who, like myself, are very open to adoption, but haven't taken their opportunity yet.

I'm in the Coast Guard Reserve, thinking of joining the police department at my alma mater doing drug-sniffing work with K9s. I love the challenge of working with the German shepherds traits and I applaud all of you who do this. I think it's one of the coolest things out there and I know it must demand an incredible amount of devotion and hopefully allows you to carry with you a lot of pride.









Okay. 

Let's continue!


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqbut it feeds into the idea that "rescues" are some special resource that absorbs these unwanted dogs or that we're "crusaders" or whatever, when the reality is that we're regular people, just like anyone else, and we are making huge personal and financial sacrifices to do this - and we'd ALL rather be doing something else but we don't feel like we can because we feel a greater responsibility for helping the dogs who end up homeless than either the people who created them or the people that bought them.


Not at all my intent. I don't see rescues at all like a safety net, and doubt people do, but with my statement I was merely saying it's unfortunate that we have to have shelters in order to try to save these dogs, but because we do, many dogs are given a second chance. 



> Originally Posted By: pupresqIt was from this statement: "I understand that breeders sell more puppies than shelters find homes for strays. Is that the main issue?"


Not in a jealous manner. I'm asking, are people upset by the fact that breeders will most likely be able to find homes for their puppies, whereas shelter will most likely not be able to find homes for their dogs. I was asking if this logic was part of what makes so many people upset by breeders.




> Originally Posted By: pupresqDo please remember that someone can decide to get a purebred and still get a dog from a rescue or shelter. But as far as being judged for buying a dog from a breeder instead of rescuing one, regardless of how much research you did, the bottom line is that you put your own desire to have exactly what you wanted it when you wanted it over saving a life. That doesn't make you a horrible person but it is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I totally realize purebreds end up in shelters. I guess I should've omitted saying "purebreds from breeders," I was just trying to distinguish between the two. 

Putting your own desire over saving a life is a stretch for me. A life is a life. And to say "it is what it is" is basically saying those of us who get whatever dog we want ARE horrible people. I think it's a bit extreme to judge someone who genuinely loves their pet based on how they went about "obtaining" it.

Also to basically say "If you're okay with being a horrible person, then why let what people say bother you." 'Cause I'm a horrible person, right? With no shame? I think that's a bit extreme and judgemental. What about people who don't even like dogs or cats and never adopt. They're choosing their own preference over saving a life?


*I hope you feel better!


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

NicoleL that was a great post.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

This is a free country and people have the right to get a dog either from a breeder or from a shelter. Those who have seen the suffering of dogs that end up at shelters due to no fault of their own have their views and, since it is a free country, they have the right to that. It is a misconception that dogs from breeders are going to be perfectly healthy and well behaved and adopted dogs are a bag of problems.

The original poster can chose to put thoughts and words into minds and mouths of people who rescue, again, it is a free country. I have the impression that the OP wants approval and endorsement of his/her choices from EVERYBODY, and it is just not going to happen. Maybe he/she just needs to develop a thicker skin and stand behind the choices made.

I think that calling rescue and adoption of abandoned animals a "mindless trend" is sad and I can only feel sorry for the people who think that way.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

...so are you saying that if people don't agree with you, they should just be nice and smile about it? You seem to say that saving a dog, and prefering to do so is "holier than thou". Well, from a strictly ethical point of view, isn't it really a better choice?

Of course ethics might not be (and mostly probably isn't) the sole deciding factor when getting a dog. One must match that pup against a lot of stuff, like fitting in the household, getting along with family members on two and four legs, temperament, maybe looks, if they are capable of doing whatever you want them to do, etc.

I think what rescue folks are trying to say is that one can get almost any type of dog from a shleter or rescue, so one really have to have _very_ specific requirements to be able to say that "yep, I tried everything, and no, there isn't such a dog out there that has to be saved". 

So basically you _can_ obtain your dream dog either way. Your choice. Some people would like you to go this way, others that way. And if you try to walk in their shoes for a mile, you will probably understand why. You are surely a nice lady, but you have not seen what they have seen, and no amount of talking about it gets you any closer. Try it, just for a week in a shelter or a month with a rescue, see if you still think the way you did before. If you do, cool, now you have gained valuable experience, and nobody can from that point on say you have not tried. 
And try not to be put off by some rescue folks tarnished social skills...they are there because they love dogs. That you can be sure of, so you DO have a good common ground! We all have, on this forum.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RebelGSDThis is a free country and people have the right to get a dog either from a breeder or from a shelter. Those who have seen the suffering of dogs that end up at shelters due to no fault of their own have their views and, since it is a free country, they have the right to that. It is a misconception that dogs from breeders are going to be perfectly healthy and well behaved and adopted dogs are a bag of problems.
> 
> The original poster can chose to put thoughts and words into minds and mouths of people who rescue, again, it is a free country. I have the impression that the OP wants approval and endorsement of his/her choices from EVERYBODY, and it is just not going to happen. Maybe he/she just needs to develop a thicker skin and stand behind the choices made.
> 
> I think that calling rescue and adoption of abandoned animals a "mindless trend" is sad and I can only feel sorry for the people who think that way.


Wow, I don't know why you want to get confrontational and insulting, I'm just looking for insight.

You are COMPLETELY missing my point.

I am NOT putting words in the mouths of anyone. These are things that I have actually witnessed. I am not seeking approval. I don't need that, I don't care that much. I was just curious as to what the sentiment stems from.

And I know dogs from breeders are not perfect. I even said that I got a dog from a breeder who has had a lot of problems with his gastric torsion.

And again, I don't know how to make this any clearer, but there are people who adopt an animal to simply SAY that have adopted an animal. I know two people personally who have done this. And they both ended up returning the dogs when they couldn't commit the time and attention.

I don't want approval from anyone at all. I love my dog more than anything and I don't need anyone to pat me on the back for that. I'm just asking what the issue is and why the generalizations.

Glad you feel sorry for me though...my thin skin really needs that.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AndreaG...so are you saying that if people don't agree with you, they should just be nice and smile about it? You seem to say that saving a dog, and prefering to do so is "holier than thou". Well, from a strictly ethical point of view, isn't it really a better choice?
> 
> Of course ethics might not be (and mostly probably isn't) the sole deciding factor when getting a dog. One must match that pup against a lot of stuff, like fitting in the household, getting along with family members on two and four legs, temperament, maybe looks, if they are capable of doing whatever you want them to do, etc.
> 
> ...


By no means am I saying that people should grin and bear it if they don't agree with me. I'm not a barbarian.

Maybe you haven't read all of this thread, but I have mentioned time and time agin my sentiments towards those people who rescue dogs. I have nothing but the deepest respect and appreciation for those who adopt. Like I said, SEVERAL times already that *I am considering adoption*. I am not "above" it. Yes adoption is more noble than getting from a breeder, but does that mean you have to shove it in the faces of those who get from a breeder in the best way one can get a dog from a breeder? AND be a jerk about it? Sure they can if they want, I just want to know why.

For the record, I have seen what they have seen.

I'm NOT at all put off by rescue folks. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do NO take that by my posts. I adore you all. And the people who make me question the reasoning behind the extremists have not cause me to form an opinion of all rescue people. Just looking for motive.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LucinaNicoleL that was a great post.


+1, thank you!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I don't think she is missing the point. I think your question has been answered and you are putting words in our mouths because it wasn't the answer you wanted.









A lot of people have seen first hand the number of animals needing homes, they know that you CAN get just about any breed of dog, and dogs without issues, and they feel like adopting is the moral thing to do in that situation. They know that breeding results in more animals, and there are already too many, so they think adopting is a better way to go and there is (for the first time) a growing social pressure encouraging this. To which I say - yay! 

Whether you adopt or not is entirely your choice but please do not present buying a dog as if it were for some greater good than getting the dog you want. Buying a dog is all about getting the dog you want, and hopefully doing so by buying one from a responsible breeder. And THAT'S OKAY if that's what you want to do. 

I would be willing to bet money that those of us in rescue have fielded far more comments about how rescue dogs have issues than you have been on the receiving in of snarky looks because you chose to buy rather than adopt. Know what? I don't take it personally when someone makes the assumption that shelter dogs = problem dogs, I look at it as opportunity to educate. If I convince someone that wonderful (and purebred) dogs are available via rescue, great, if not, well at least I tried.

If you don't like their comments then stand up and explain the difference between good breeders and bad breeders and say why you think what you did was the right choice for you. They may agree with you, they may not, but as long as you're okay with your choices, then you're good to go.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Looks like we were posting at the same time.

I think the motive is that there is a growing awareness of just how many dogs there are dying for want of homes and that breeding contributes to those deaths. So when you say you got your dog from a breeder, some listeners are going to look at your choiceas contributing to the deaths of dogs like theirs (if they adopted) and that creates some hostility. 

As far as how much breeding actually contributes, then we get back to 1. A vast majority of breeders do so directly by selling unaltered dogs to anyone who will buy one - this group includes bybs, mills, and just unscrupulous breeders who are more into titles and production than the welfare of the animals they create. We get their dogs in the shelters and we get the offspring of their dogs in the shelters, and the offspring of the offspring of their dogs... 2. Even good breeders who take their own dogs back rarely will take back second generation litters, so that's another source of dogs needing help. 

Doesn't mean the best breeders should stop breeding and doesn't mean no one should ever buy a dog, it's just the bottom line of the situation.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm not looking for any specific answer other than the ones people give me. I'm asking "why" and people are telling me "no, shelter." I'm seeking opinions out of curiosity. I've already made up my mind that when I do get my next dog, I am going to check shelters, rescues, Cragslist, Petfinder and breeders to find the perfect companion for me. But it seems like, some don't like that answer. 

What words have I put into anyone's mouth?

I respect that you feel it's the moral thing to do. logically, I agree, that it is the morally better thing to do.

PLease let me know where I have presented buying a dog as if it's for a greater than for the dog I want?

I don't understand why so many feel like I'm on the other side of the rescue argument. I'm not at all. I'm not even on the fence, again, I just wondered where the animosity comes from. I am totally not arguing which is better, but it feels like people want to argue that with me.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqLooks like we were posting at the same time.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> some listeners are going to look at your choiceas contributing to the deaths of dogs like theirs (if they adopted) and that creates some hostility.


Simulposts are a beautiful thing!









This really helps answering my question. This is the kind of answer I'm looking for! This would make sense. Thanks!


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

OK now I am confused. So you are considering adoption. Great. What's the issue, then? 

What can anybody do against people who are not so nice about telling you what they think? They are snarky because they feel very passionatelly about this issue. Or just because. So..?







Serioulsy, is this THAT big of a deal? 

As Pupresq said, if you get a resuce dog, you will have nasty looks and snarky comments just the same, the only difference is it will be coming from other types of people. Or maybe they are all the same type...who think that this will make you change your mind, or who just are blunt, or enjoy it, or whatever. 
I still don't see the big deal in it.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

OK I just wanted to share some of what you might get if you happen to own a very pretty, pb-looking, young, etc. shepherd. People see her, want to pet her, see how friendly she is, playful, etc... So, where did you get her? Rescue. 
"Oh!" or: "Does she have a lot of issues?" my other fav.. "yes, now that you said so, she DOES seem a bit ..."(long, short, mixed, shy, insert your favorite). 
There is NO way on Earth to please everyone. You just have to decide the way it seems right to you, and buckle up and take whatever they throw at you. Or smile.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqI don't think she is missing the point. I think your question has been answered and you are putting words in our mouths because it wasn't the answer you wanted.


I think your question had been answered over and over again in this thread. You have asked for opinions, got some honest ones that you don't want to hear. 

So, I agree, what is it you really want? You are the one seeing a confrontation everywhere and from everyone. People have the right to their opinions, we are being judged by each other day after day. Sooner or later we all need to learn that not everybody out there is going to approve of us and our choices and the sooner we learn to live with it the better.

I have to second Andrea: what is the big deal? What answer do you really want?


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## ninhar (Mar 22, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: AndreaGOK I just wanted to share some of what you might get if you happen to own a very pretty, pb-looking, young, etc. shepherd. People see her, want to pet her, see how friendly she is, playful, etc... So, where did you get her? Rescue.
> "Oh!" or: "Does she have a lot of issues?" my other fav.. "yes, now that you said so, she DOES seem a bit ..."(long, short, mixed, shy, insert your favorite).
> There is NO way on Earth to please everyone. You just have to decide the way it seems right to you, and buckle up and take whatever they throw at you. Or smile.


Exactly. You were in a class where some people looked down on you because you have a dog from a breeder. You could have ended up in a class where people looked down on those who have a rescue. 

Those in your class who had an issue with it, thats their baggage.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

Easy tiger.

Holy cow.

Okay. I mentioned from square one, I was interested in both adoption and breeder dogs.

Still, no one has said what words I've put into anyone's mouths. It's not that serious. I was interested in a light discussion on the issue and it's gotten blown out of proportion. I'm looking for opinions...not one single answer.

I was asking for opinions as the why the animosity towards someone with a dog from a breeder. That was my question. I assumed that there may be grey areas of opinions, not just black and white. 

Again, I said it's not keeping me up at night, but I was curious about the motives. I'm not being attacked day after day or anything. It was a passing curiosity and I thought I'd ask.

How can you assume what I want to hear? You are being very combative.

I never said I'm seeing confrontation from everyone from everywhere. I get it that.

For those of you who have provided opinions and reasoning behind why some of the people I have come across express animosity towards those who have dogs from a breeder, thank you very much. You have really helped me to understand where the animosity comes from.

For those of you are looking to get into some heated argument, save your breath, since you already feel my question has been answered.

This was precisely why I chose to present my question to this board, where I expected some civility and respect rather than bringing it to the people who I felt would berate me if I asked.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ninhar
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: AndreaGOK I just wanted to share some of what you might get if you happen to own a very pretty, pb-looking, young, etc. shepherd. People see her, want to pet her, see how friendly she is, playful, etc... So, where did you get her? Rescue.
> ...


I knew they had an issue, my question (which has been sufficiently answered) was "why?"

It's unfortunate that people look down on people with rescue dogs. I understand that that happens, but I can't imagine why people have issue with that. That's like looking down on Mother Teresa or something. 

For those of you with rescue dogs, (and I'm a little hesitant to ask this, hopefully whatever heat is on this board will cool off), what are some issues you experience from people with issues with shelter dogs? I'm sure it's mostly ignorance-based.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I am sorry you are getting flamed a little for your question. 

You are just coming off like you are defending your choice. With certain ways you have phased things. Like "I am looking to adopt, I am not above it." 

I know that is not how you mean it. 

When someone says something about you buying from a breeder. Defend your breeder. OR if it turned out to be a bad breeder, educate the person on finding a good one. 
Then also mention rescue and shelters as other options. 

Please go spend time in a shelter, TODAY. I think the tone of your comments will change. Then you will also understand what you want to know.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks for this post.

Again, I have spent time with a shelter and I know how incapacitating it is to experience what happens behind the scenes. My fiance and I have a videography company and we also have offered to shoot PSAs for the local shelters and take pictures for them. 

To clarify, I know some of people who go to a breeder feel elite, or that their dog is elite. I was just saying that I'm not into feeling elite and I'm not the kind of person to avoid a shelter dog because I feel I'm too cool for that.

Thanks again, *Daisy.* I appreciate your response


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

I also apologize if I came across as condemning anyone or whiny because people I've come across don't agree with the fact that I got Maxx from a breeder. I honestly was just wondering where the disgust came from.

I don't condemn anyone and I respect anyone who has a dog and loves their dog and gives their dog the best life they can. And I have a remarkable amount of admiration for those who have saved a dog's life by adopting from a shelter. I know this is not why you do it, but know that you can be proud of yourselves for the action.

I also admire the passion of those who have taken issue with me personally in my day to day life. Especially now, that many of you have told me where this stems from. 

I will continue to search for my girl (PS, I think I may have found her. Just waiting to hear back). I will also continue to educate and pass along what I've learned from all of you on this thread.

Thanks for reading.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

> Quote: what are some issues you experience from people with issues with shelter dogs?


As I said: assuming that all rescued dogs must have done sg wrong, or they wouldn't end up in a shelter. So they must have some fault, maybe they aren't PB or they aren't pretty or they must have bitten, or have serious health or temperament issues, or...(blahblahblah). What people don't always consider enough is how many of them end up there because their owners had problems.
I also hear from a lot of people that they would never adopt as they aren't prepared to deal with "a baggage".
Or they want a puppy so they know what they are getting (which is funny, I think with a puppy you have a lot less info than with an adult). Plus, you can get puppies from rescues, too.
Or they want to know that the parents are healthy and of course you don't have that infomartion with a rescued dog. 
And the list goes on and on. 

Basically, it's wanting some type of guarantee that the dog will be just as the owner imagined. And I don't think this is realistic. All dogs are living, breathing things, all can have issues, and there are really no guarantees in life. For anything. I think everybody looking to get a dog by any means should be prepared to deal with what that dog brings home, the good and the bad. No dog is ever perfect, just as we aren't, either.

So unless I was looking for a dog for a very specific purpose (such as competing, or showing, or sg similar), I will probably always try to adopt one. And I believe most people who are looking for a dog as a companion, would be able to find one that is just right. Not perfect. I don't think those dogs exist.


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## mychance (Oct 22, 2007)

Thanks for sticking with the conversation. As a long-time volunteer with a GSD rescue, I know that my passion and commitment is what keeps me plugging away, but also know that it can get in the way at times even though I am more of a "people-person" than many of my close friends in rescue. We’ve all heard way too many stories and excuses and it’s hard to get out from under that weight. 

Like others, I’m not anti-breeder. I love this breed and respect the breeders that are doing right. For me and my family, adopting through rescue or a shelter is the right choice (both of our dogs were adopted through a rescue). I’m not heavily involved in dog sports or competition so this would be the wrong home for a working dog. I know that very well, all too well, because I’ve fostered working dogs who were sold into the wrong home – I’ve rarely been more exhausted! If I EVER wanted to get seriously involved in those activities, I might consider buying a dog (and probably from one of the breeders I’ve learned about on this board). 

I can’t say that I’ve ever personally experienced negative comments about our dogs being adopted through rescue. I suppose some of the “back-handed” compliments might qualify, “Oh, but he’s so handsome.” “No way, she’s too well behaved, too pretty, too sweet.” More often I hear the misconceptions that they couldn’t possible be purebred, must be sick, must have behavioral issues, must have been abused. True for some of the dogs I’ve met through rescue, not true for most of them.

I also think there’s a thought-process out there that dogs in rescue spring fully-formed from the foreheads of rescue volunteers. Unless it’s happening in my sleep, I’m pretty sure that isn’t how my fosters get here . . .







As pupresq said earlier, they all came from a breeder of some sort. In fact many of them come from some fairly high-profile breeders. I’ve even seen some kennels that have had dogs in our program given as referrals here. 

In the end it comes back to Research, Research, Research and conversations like this are part of that process.


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## dhonner (Nov 27, 2007)

SharkBB, 

This is such a great question - thanks for asking it. I have had both - from a breeder and from the shelter. 

In a previous post, you mentioned trying to understand the discomfort. My 'discomfort' comes from daring to look in the Urgent section of the board, feeling the pit in my stomach when postings fall of the list, knowing the fate of another beautiful animal. My discomfort comes from feeling so helpless when other people are irreverent with an animal's life. My discomfort comes from knowing that I can only help a few. 

I don't have mine to show or work. My purpose is to provide a home and have amazing companionship. And I have that in Samson. If you are looking to work with your dog (like others I know are doing) I wouldn't criticize you for going through a breeder. 

This is a good topic and it gives me much to read and reflect.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: SharkB8
> 
> For those of you with rescue dogs, (and I'm a little hesitant to ask this, hopefully whatever heat is on this board will cool off), what are some issues you experience from people with issues with shelter dogs? I'm sure it's mostly ignorance-based.


Well, the one thing is to get people to understand that while the term is used loosely (just as, unfortunately is the term rescue) my dogs also came from a breeder. 

Just my dogs didn't end up in a good situation before they came to me. But if I wanted a beautiful young black sable GSD, there are two on this board right now I could have tried for. They also came from breeders.









So trying to get people to listen-hey, these dogs didn't hatch. Or get dropped from the planet Shepherd. Or walk into the shelter on a voluntary committment. They came from someone who at some point decided to put two dogs together for some reason, or someone who let two dogs get together somehow. 

Now differentiating between breeders who stand behind generations of their dogs and the puppy producers is huge to me. 

But letting people see that these dogs aren't some freaks airdropped in from a distant land of stray dogs-that is so important. Because I hope that helps them to see that this is a common problem, and one that they contribute to when they buy from a puppy producer.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SharkB8Thanks for this post.
> 
> Again, I have spent time with a shelter and I know how incapacitating it is to experience what happens behind the scenes. My fiance and I have a videography company and we also have offered to shoot PSAs for the local shelters and take pictures for them.
> 
> ...


Sorry I did not read earlier, if you posted you had been in a shelter. 
Now I am confused if you have...then why the question?









This has been an interesting thread to read. 
I happen to have had the life changing experience of doing it all ways, Breeder (that dog now has passed on), Lady, looking in a kill shelter and just seeing her and falling in love, and Bruno, looking on Petfinder, seeing something in his eyes, calling about him, then getting in the car and going to get him, 
Bella, found her wandering on the hwy. 

And Shadow from a rescue, thought I could foster. Now I am learning a whole new world of rescue volunteering.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Very good point Jean.









They ALL come from breeders. 

And very well put.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I just want to mention here that some of the comments made on this thread are exactly why people get defensive about their breeder-purchased dogs. When rescue people start talking about how it's more ethical to rescue a dog it does create a "holier than thou" appearance. It does NOT help bring people to your side when you say things that are meant to demean others.

The OP has been backed into a corner by some of you. I haven't seen that she's looking for anyone's approval - she is just confused by the attitudes of some people she's been around who treat her as a second class citizen because she didn't do the "ethical" thing and rescue a dog. And unfortunately I, too, have seen a large number of people who have that attitude. It comes across as "I'm better than you because I SAVED a dog and you BOUGHT a dog". I've seen it in real life, I've seen it in some people on this board, and I've seen it on other forums. It's a BAD attitude and one that causes division instead of bringing people together.

I don't proclaim which of my dogs were rescued and which were bought. I don't put value on them differently. I don't boast or make a point of telling everyone that I rescued a dog. I simply do the best I can with the dogs I have and I don't treat anyone else badly because they didn't obtain a dog the same way I did. I think the OP was taken aback a bit by the attitude she faced in her class and she came here to ask about it and got some of the same attitude shoved at her again. And that's not good.

When it comes to all the dogs in rescue, I can say with completely assured confidence: I did NOT cause any of those dogs to be in rescue. While I may or may not choose to adopt one of them, no one can blame the pet over-population on me. Twenty years of working with dogs and I've never produced a litter. There's only been one dog that I've re-homed in all those years and she went to a home where she is doted on. I've fostered numerous times, helped raise orphaned pups, and have spent time at the shelters and held dogs as they were euthanized. I understand the problem. But I am NOT the problem, nor are others who choose to buy from reputable breeders.

Go gripe at the people who are producing litter after litter, with little or no health certification, with little or no knowledge of the backgrounds on their dogs, with little or no care of where their puppies go. Don't gripe at a non-breeder who just happens to choose to buy a pup.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

There was an unfriendly attitude in her class about it and she asked the question here, so we answered it. None of us have posting anything like this unsolicited to any number of posts on this forum every day about people who have just bought a pup. This board is FULL of people who bought their dogs from a variety of sources and rarely do any of us say boo about it. But when asked why some people have an issue with it, well, we answered. 



> Quoteon't gripe at a non-breeder who just happens to choose to buy a pup.


I don't "gripe" at them, but what about people who just got a dog at a petstore? A BYB? The flea market? Should we say nothing because it's divisive? Don't blame them, they just bought a puppy?

I agree we shouldn't lambast those people, but I'm **** sure going to try to educate them. When you pay money into a system, you become a part of that system. Every dollar that gets spent on a petstore puppy is a dollar that keeps that puppy's mother in ****. I'm not being holier than thou because I rescue dogs, I'm calling people out on the facts. I can go after the millers all day long but as long as people buy their dogs they'll keep doing what they do because there's a market. 

Okay, so not every bought dog is from a miller or a bad breeder. That's great! And as I've said, I've got nothing against good breeders, but as we keep saying - all the purebred dogs dying in shelters and all their purebred and mixed breed offspring came from somewhere, they came from breeders. So when the classmates of the OP hear she bought her dog, they know that on some level that decision may cost the lives of dogs like theirs. If she wants to take that opportunity to talk with them about the importance of quality breeding programs and about how good breeders and rescue people can work together to help animals, that's great. They may be convinced, they may not, but at least there's information sharing and points of view exchanged.

But choosing to buy a dog is what it is. It's not a decision made to save a life, it's a decision made to obtain a dog. That's a neutral statement. I'm not condemning people who make that choice, but it's just a fact. If the classmates have chosen to save a life while they obtain a dog, then good for them and I'm glad that the idea is catching on.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Actually, pupresq, none of that was aimed at you. But something you said in this last post does kind of put you in the same category.

You said: "So when the classmates of the OP hear she bought her dog, they know that on some level that decision may cost the lives of dogs like theirs."

This is BS to me. If someone buys a dog from a good breeder, they are not in any way killing other dogs. This is the kind of emotionalism that really irks people and hurts the rescue community. MY buying a dog has not caused other dogs to die - what causes dogs to die are the irresponsible breeders, the irresponsible owners, and the people who dump dogs at shelters. I will NOT take any responsibility for that because it's NOT MY FAULT, nor should I - or anyone else who buys from a reputable breeder - be made to feel responsible for the deaths of unwanted dogs.

I'm sorry that there are breeders out there doing the wrong thing. I'm sorry that there are people who are unwilling or unable to keep their bitches from "accidentally" getting pregnant. I'm sorry that there are dogs in shelters who are dying. And I try to educate those I talk to on what makes a good breeder opposed to what makes a crappy one. I've written articles for the local paper on why people should take their time and research for a good breeder if they're planning on buying a dog. I've been on radio programs more than once, talking about "bad" breeding and how to avoid those people. I do urge people to rescue, but I never EVER make someone feel bad for buying from a reputable breeder. And I don't think that someone who rescues is a better person than someone who buys a dog. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

There are plenty of people who treat rescue dogs as lower class. 

A dog that was adopted from our rescue was banned from obedience class by the trainer who prefers to train purebred puppies. The trainer never saw the dog, she just banned him (she already paid the fee for the course). The owner complained to the Better Business Bureau and was allowed back into class two weeks into the course (she did not do it). The dog used to be a demo dog for an obedience trainer, was very well trained (I have photos to prove that) and there was no good reason to ban him. I attended several of classes of this trainer with my well-trained purebred (rescued, from a well known breeder considered reputable - but would not take this dog back so he was to be euthanized) dogs and it was obvious that she catered to those bought from the breeders. The assistant trainer asked me if I ever saw a rescue dog come back to the next level obedience class. I realized that they did not. I referred another dog from our rescue to this class and the trainer asked him not to come back for the next course.

There are plenty of snobs out there who feel holier than thou because they can show off an expensive dog bought from a breeder - that feel that their dog must be better than a rescue. And more times than I can count I hear condescending and superior comments about rescue dogs from such owners. I can live with that and I avoid their company.

I personally have no need to talk about where my dogs come from. If I am asked about, I explain or skip over a topic. I do not feel special sympathy or give special treatment to owners of purebred dogs who feel misunderstood. 

I am a person with social awareness. I prefer people who care about issues like the environment, social issues and the abandoned animals than people whose emphasis is expensive clothing, holidays and home decoration and acquisition of expensive items. I am going to chose the company of the first group and some may not like me for that. It is my right. 

At this point of my life I would chose to rescue a dog and save a life over a prefect puppy from a breeder. I have the right to that. I would probably spend more time in the company of people who do the same and feel the same. I have two personal friends who are good breeders.
If I were looking for a SAR dog, Sch dog or a show dog, I would chose a reputable breeder if I could not find a throw-away dog suitable for this.

I am avoiding a neighbor who flew cross country to buy a designer mutt, a golden poodle mix, for several thousand dollars from a "breeder" and who talks about her new "breed" all the time. Do I judge her? Yes I do. I see dogs and puppies like that dying in shelters just because they are not produced by a "breeder" with a fancy web page. I am assuming that she is complaining about me somewhere and it is her right. I will always recommend a rescue dog for people looking for a pet because, in addition to getting a pet they save a life, and that is a good thing. 

In life people judge us by our appearance, money, age, gender, nationality, education, car and dog (among other things). We cannot force all other people to like or respect us if they have different views. I personally am happy that more and more people are adopting, others may not like it and they are free not to like me for preferring rescue. 

I would compare the rescue breeder issue with the electric collar - no electric collar issue. People have diverging opinions and some will never come together. Some feel better than others for preferring one approach over the other and express their opinions on the board. 
I think there is much more heated discussion on this board when it comes to training than there was in this thread.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: This is BS to me. If someone buys a dog from a good breeder, they are not in any way killing other dogs.


I disagree with this. Suppose they buy a dog from a mill at a petstore. You are saying they have no responsibility for the suffering that decision goes to support?







Oh, wait, a mill is not a good breeder! 

Okay, then what defines a good breeder? And where is that line? 

Because A LOT of us in rescue have had the dogs of "good" breeders show up and the breeder has declined to take them back. Oh wait, a "good" breeder wouldn't do that. 

Okay, then what about the puppies of the dogs of the good breeders? 

I've asked that question several times on previous threads, and the general consensus of the "good" breeders, and I really think most of them ARE good breeders, has been that at some point that responsibility falls on the people who bought the dog. And I can understand their position. 

So where does that leave us? I think that some oops litters are probably the risk inherent in maintaining a few truly good breeders out there and I don't think they should all go away. There are several people on this board who I am GLAD are producing GSDs because their GSDs are fantastic dogs and they are doing so in the most responsible way that they can, even if that still entails some risk. 

But the people in the OP's class don't even know where she got her dog and the majority of breeders are not of the caliber of the people I'm referring to above. If someone tells me they bought their dog, I'm going to wonder where they bought it, and chances are it was NOT one of those great breeders, it was out of the newspaper, off the Internet, in a petstore, or at the flea market. And YES, that decision DOES contribute to the death of dogs at shelters.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

I look at this question like this: if for any reason we would decide at some point that we will buy from a breeder, I would not be surprised or offended if some people would not agree with our choice and would tell it so. 
I still think that adoption is morally the better thing to do. I have no idea why this simple truth offends anyone.


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## cgarrity (Apr 22, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with anyone who prefers to get a young pup from a reputable breeder vs. adopt a shelter dog. I agree with you in that I prefer to get a very young pup from a good breeder. If that makes me a "bad" person then I guess I'm guilty as charged. I don't breed dogs, however and I take great care of my dogs and they don't produce litters that add to the terrible over population of pet situation. The breeders that I choose to get dogs from also have their pups placed when they are young and do a good job of screening purchasers to avoid having their pups ending up in shelters. My breeders all agree to take a dog back, no questions asked for any reason, if an owner can't keep a dog. I have rescued two dogs from a shelter and I would consider doing it again, but I have had my greatest joy in raising my dogs from puppies and no-one should lay a guilt trip on you for wanting to do the same thing.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AndreaGI look at this question like this: if for any reason we would decide at some point that we will buy from a breeder, I would not be surprised or offended if some people would not agree with our choice and would tell it so.
> I still think that adoption is morally the better thing to do. I have no idea why this simple truth offends anyone.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

Guilt tripping sure isn't the "right thing" to do. But as we are trying to articulate here, there is nothing wrong with people who disagree with your choice, either. They feel differently about these things for good reason, and have a right to do so. 
That's all.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

See, this is what I mean about putting words in someone's mouth. No one is saying that people who buy dogs are "bad" or "horrible" as the OP said earlier, but it is what it is. 

If your most enjoyable dog experience was raising a puppy from a breeder, then that's fine. 

I am in 100% agreement with Andrea. I've bought dogs before, I might do so again, if I do so it will be with every attempt to support only the most ethical and responsible of breeders, but if some people think I should have adopted instead, I will certainly expect that and understand where they're coming from. 

And I DO think you can find excellent working dogs in rescue, so I don't mean to imply that you can't by saying I'd consider buying one.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

*Pupresq*, I wasn't directing the "bad"/"horrible" dog buyer statement at anyone on this board. These were not words I've put in anyone's mouths. This was just from personal experiences. Words that actually came out of mouths.

I asked this question as a learning experience for myself. It was an attempt to set up an opportunity for those of you who are adamant about adoption to explain why there is such frustration towards people who responsibly buy dogs.

If anyone felt I was disagreeing with an answer, I certainly was not and I apologize. I wasn't looking for a specific answer. Just opinions.

I humbled myself and put my own ignorance the table in an attempt to understand why/how people who buy from reputable breeders contribute to the homeless dog problem. I'd imagine a civil opportunity to do this is what most of you probably wish for! Unfortunately the civility fell by the wayside.

There have been no answers I did not like since it wasn't what I wanted to hear. What I want to hear is what all of you have to say. And many of you have enlightened me and I have already begun to pass along what I've learned here to other people who both buy and adopt dogs, but are confused by the anger.

Isn't that the kind of free flow of information we need to help fight the heart of the problem?


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

I have also enjoyed this discussion because some of the responses came from dedicated, selfless rescue people-people who I feel are working to address the dog overpopulation crisis.

I am not one of these people-just an average dog owner. I think some of the passion about buying versus rescuing is directed at people like me. I was simply uninformed about the number of dogs that are killed because there is no place for them to go. I had only a vague idea how poor breeders or puppy mills contributed to the problem by producing dogs like cornflakes.

So from my perspective, the anger some people feel about buying a dog is for people like me-not for someone who is educated and has specific plans that require a dog with specific abilities and temperament. The casual pet owner can find a wonderful dog from all kinds of sources; that being true why not support the efforts of rescue or humane societies instead of encouraging the dog as commodity world.

Mary Jane


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I cannot believe that eveyone is not on the same page on this forum. 

It makes me crazy! I love this forum. BUT this is the only thing that makes me crazy.

If you are a good breeder (do we have to define), someone who is breeding to protect the breed, working dogs (some of the happiness GSD's there are, or seeing eye dogs. That is acceptable. 

It is panick time people. Get mad, get passionite. GSD's are dying, every day. What does it take to change your attitude's? 

YOU BUY FROM A BREEDER. YOU KEEP THEM IN BUSINESS. PERIOD. 

I am SO tired of fighting for a dog life on the urgent side (not that I am some kind of saint), then coming here and seeing a post like, "some comments made on this thread will not bring people to your side.....
Then you know bury you head in the sand. Pretend a byb in the local paper is not doing wrong. Do nothing, do not educate, do not stop them...Then live with yourself, because I cannot. 
Bella the aggressive Sable kept me up last night, etc. That is who I am.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Very good statement Mary Jane, I agree. 


For my above post sorry for getting upset. Bad day. 

I was once uneducated too.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986Do nothing, do not educate, do not stop them...Then live with yourself, because I cannot.
> Bella the aggressive Sable kept me up last night, etc. That is who I am.


Just by having this thread was everyone's opportunity to try to get everyone on the same page. To do something. To educate.

Everyone might not be on the same page because they simply just _do not know!_ 

And maybe you all have JUST educated me! (but I doubt it, I bet some of the several hundred who have viewed this thread have also been educated) Isn't that a start? Especially since I am passing along what has been said?

And I suppose it's best if we continue to define a good breeder. Because people don't know. _I_ know (one of the few things I actually _do_ know), but as you know, there are people who have no clue. I used to not know. 10 years ago, I'd never even heard of a puppy mill. I never heard of hip dyslplasia. I never thought about breed preservation. I used to think breeders just find a male and a female with papers and voila! But in the last 10 years I've read, I've watched, I've seen, I've listened to try to keep up on the issues and the problems and this thread was a continuation of my self-education. There are people who have not gotten to my state of enlightenment yet, and there are many who have left me in their dust they are so enlightened.

I joined this board for a myriad reasons, not just to find out how to keep Maxx off the couch. Mainly to see what it has to offer. Seeing the Urgent page snapped some memories back and reopened my eyes. I've posted stories in the media about a mill in Minnesota. We're all here sharing info. We all know and have seen different things.

I understand your anger, *Daisy*, and this forum is actually a slice of the general dog owning population. Everyone doesn't know what you know yet. Or feel like you do yet. This is why it's good. IMHO.









People on here on not just here to educate, but also to learn.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Yes you are right. Thank you for starting this thread. 

I remember when I was little my first GSD, Daisy. I really do not think she was pure, my Dad got her for free as a pup. 
She had at least 2 litters that I remember. 

Was she ever spayed, I could not tell you. My parents were not aware. AND to completly horrify..... I sat in the yard (which is dangerous now on many levels for a child), with a sign that said free puppies. 
The most dangerous thing about it back then was a car stopped and got rear ended when they saw the sign. 
I could not even tell you who the father of the pups was. 
She slept maninly outside (unless I begged my Dad to let her in) or in the garage in bad weather. 

I know we fed her Strongheart, and straight from the table whatever bone we did not want. She lived to be like 16 yrs old. 

Things have changed SO much. 

When I found Bella (My Beagle) on the hwy, she was not spayed. Someone called because of my ad (found dog) and wanted her if she did not find a home. I told my Aunt if I give her up, I will spay her first. 

My Aunt said why? I said so they will not breed her. 

She said "oh Kelly", that is very controlling, you think to much, what's it to you if they breed her? 

I took the opportunity right there and explained. I said I can see about 3 things geneticlly wrong with this girl by just looking at her, and I am NO doctor, I would not breed her. Are you aware that goes to puppies and could be why she is on the hwy in the first place? 
Not to mention the overpopulation factor. 

I just cannot believe attitudes like this still exist. But they do. 

I want every breeder who reads this, and every person. Before you get that female dog (I hate the term bitch by the way, not dehumanizing but de-dogizing, is that a word?), pregnant. Ask yourself WHY? 

No really, I should start a thread. I want to know WHY? Money? Love puppies? There better be a darn good reason before you add another dog to this world. 
Thank God you cannot legally sell children or children would be worse off than they ARE. 

And for the posts about not saying what dogs of there's they rescue or having to mention they rescue. 
It is in my sig because I want people to know who I am, and I want people to ASK. I want them to feel safe to ask me questions. If it makes you feel like I am bragging or trying to be a saint than so be it, that is NOT how it is meant. I am just trying to get to know people and being open, and also learning stuff every day myself. Always. 
BUT I am proud of my pack. Like Jean said before, they are ALL from a breeder.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

This is one example of what I was referring to as far as putting words in our mouths: 

I said:


> Quote:That doesn't make you a horrible person but it is what it is.


and you responded with:


> Quote:Also to basically say "If you're okay with being a horrible person, then why let what people say bother you." 'Cause I'm a horrible person, right? With no shame? I think that's a bit extreme and judgemental.


I think given the fact that you quoted my statement and also said:


> Quote: And to say "it is what it is" is basically saying those of us who get whatever dog we want ARE horrible people. I


pretty much makes clear that you are saying I'm calling people who buy "horrible" which I'd just said explicitely that I wasn't. I've also made multiple other statements that directly refute that. 

Hope that helps! 

As far as the rest of it - I'm sticking to my guns here - it is what it is. Adopting saves lives, buying doesn't, but at least if you buy from a really reputable source then you are minimizing any collateral damage to the extent you can, and good for that. Some people don't care that much about breed preservation, they just see the staggering numbers of dogs dying, and they would prefer that everyone adopted. Their prerogative.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

Forgive me. This was not my intent. I was just trying to infer.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I was just trying to infer.


When you "infer" something that I've explicitely said is _not_ the case, you are putting words in my mouth. 

But apology accepted and let's move on.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I just wanted to add a few comments:

1. Although I love certain breeds (particularly german shepherds) I don't actually care about breed preservation. I am more interested in saving dogs' lives. And I do think it's an ethical and moral choice. Just like Rebel, I make lots of other similar choices in the way that I live my life. 

2. I have adopted and fostered tiny puppies (youngest was 5 weeks old) and adopted adult dogs. If you are committed to adopting then you can find whatever you dog you'd like to find. Many pb puppies are available for adoption and many dogs suitable for sports or activities like SAR, schutzhund or agility are available for adoption. I have seen very well bred dogs (even imports) end up in shelters and rescues. If you are willing to do the same kind of work you'd do to find a reputable breeder then you can find the right dog for you in a rescue. 

3. I haven't read anything on this thread that makes rescues or rescuers "look bad." All I see is some very passionate people who care about building a society that stands for sustainability instead of disposability. As a society we're all about being able to buy everything we need and then we throw it out when we don't need it or want it anymore. Unfortunately that extends to sentient beings like animals. That's not the kind of society I want to live in. So that's why I adopt "unwanted" animals and that's why I educate other people about taking the same course of action. I am very active in working for a variety of social justice issues and this is just one part of a bigger picture for me.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I agree with Pupreq and Ruth. 

I just have to say I do believe in breed perservation. I guess there is coming a time when that will have to be let go to....
I am just not there yet. 

I LOVE all animals and mix breeds to. I would never turn any dog away. 

I just love breed traits. I am a dog freak. 

I cannot imagine this world without pure bred GSD's. But I know at this rate it may happen someday. Like everything else we are abusing our beautiful resources.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've got two pets from a reputable breeder and 4 pets from shelters/rescues. I am both an animal lover in general, and a German shepherd dog fancier that IS into breed preservation. I do not feel guilty for one second about my purebred dogs. First of all, the people who have condemned this to my face are people who really have no right to judge. Like I said, I have 4 other rescued pets (and would probably have more but I'm at the zoning limit), I've fostered, I've done home visits and shelter visits on behalf of other rescues, I volunteered twice a week at the local Humane Society. I've helped place a few dogs even though they couldn't be placed with me. I have absolutely nothing against shelter workers and rescuers, or even people who will always adopt from the pound. Some day when I have kids and we want a family dog we will go to the pound and pick one, just like DH and I did with Coke. I don't think rescuing animals and being a breed fancier has to be mutually exclusive. I tried explaining it to someone like this....this particular person spends a lot of money on clothes and shoes for running. I don't care for running, so I can't imagine spending $300 on shoes, I would say go to Goodwill and get some used athletic shoes. But that's the point, I don't CARE about running, just like she doesn't CARE about German shepherd dogs. Neither person is bad, or wrong, it's just a matter of preference. I'm not going to constantly condemn her for spending lots of money on running and I appreciate others not judging me.

Also when I volunteered at the shelter I was depressed at how many animals get returned, even multiple times, and this shelter is quite picky. I know that I just cannot be a good home to many of those animals. Some have issues I have no experience with, or simply am not comfortable dealing with (one thing I simply cannot tolerate is dog aggression, I'd sooner adopt a human aggressive dog than a dog aggressive one). It is not fair for the adopted dog, for my other dogs, and for DH and I (and our relationship) to save a dog whose needs we cannot meet. Maybe some of you know of Deirdre and her Samson. We were originally going to adopt him, went to visit him multiple times. When we took Kenya to see him it became apparent that he did not have enough discipline, control, or maturity to be thrown into a multi-dog household, and he had some separation anxiety. It simply was not fair to put him in a house where immediately he'd have to be crated for 3-4 hours at a time because we both work. So, we had to back out. But Deirdre and Paul adopted him and now he is in a perfect home. He is their only dog, and Paul was home quite a bit to work with him. He was not a "bad" dog, he just never had ANY sort of training or manners and I was not prepared to deal with that.

As for choosing dogs from a breeder, to me it is more than simply wanting a purebred, or an import, or a certain "type" for a certain sport. Take Nikon for example. I chose him because of his PARENTS. If I had not chosen him, I would not have bought another dog from anyone else or adopted another dog. So, it is not fair to say another dog had to die or sit in a shelter because I got a puppy from a breeder. I was not looking for a dog using some loose criteria so I would have a dog to show and title. I was looking for a dog I really truly believed could add something to the breed. If I had not believed that, I would still be a two-dog household.


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## wsumner26 (Jan 27, 2006)

No one has mentioned unscrupulous breeders who turn dogs in to animal controls to be killed when they are no longer profitable. 



> Quote: some people mainly get a dog from a shelter because it's noble and good and virtuous to rescue a dog from a shelter and getting a dog from a breeder doesn't carry those positive connotations.


Exactly! It IS noble, good and virtuous to save a life from a horrible death.


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## TESS (Oct 29, 2008)

So here is the issue that confronted me.
I bought a pup from a breeder and frankly did so out of complete unconsciousness to the plight of rescued dogs. Within weeks I found out he had a heart PDA (hole in his heart) and was going to die by the age of 1 or so if I left it. My breeder person returned the money I paid her and I spent 5X that on the heart surgery he needed at the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary Hosp. He lived and he is now 3 and he is the most athletic and smartest GSD there is ever on the planet.
So I am both an adopter and a buyer and perfectly okay with those roles and how I handled my choices. "Some are born to rescue and some have rescue thrust upon them."
So anyone who loves their dog and commits to its betterment and well being and love for it is in rescue whether they adopted or purchased. God loves us all.
I did not hear a peep that the purchaser posting above abandoned or abused or killed a dog. I heard her love her dog. Isn't that what we are to be promoting?
So the missing links in the above "argument" are the people who abandon, abuse, hurt and carelessly/recklessly put down the gift of their partners only God can make available. Those are the people we do not want to be and those are the people we do not want to buy OR to adopt dogs. We spend our lives and time trying to fix their wrongs. We want more of us.
Tess in Philadelphia


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

(Generic post, not aimed at Tess above)

Sorry, people, but it is NOT "the simple truth" to say that rescuing is the ethical choice. Yes, it's a choice, but no one is being unethical if they choose to buy (from a GOOD breeder, as I keep saying) instead.

I truly don't think you guys realize how much you turn people against you when you preach instead of educate. I've heard so many complaints about preachy rescue people over the years and we can see some of it right here on this thread. People who are part of that group don't recognize it as preachiness, I guess. 

Yes, there are some purebred dog owners who are stuffy and pretentious, too, but just because THEY are doesn't mean YOU should be too. The people in my training group are a mix of adoption and purchase and no one looks down their nose at either. I respect these people. 

Education is the key, but trying to do it with emotional blackmail will continue to backfire. Instead of insinuating that YOU'RE moral because you've rescued and others are immoral because they haven't, why don't you do as I mentioned in a previous post and write some articles, get out in the public, etc. to encourage (not attempt to FORCE) people to rescue - or, if not rescue, to understand why buying from a BYB, puppy mill, pet store etc. is not a good idea. 

I just don't know how else to get you guys to understand that you're working against yourselves when you promote a certain attitude. I'm FOR rescue, but I'm against the whole morality/immorality nonsense that tends to crop up in some people who have chosen to adopt dogs. When I hear that stuff I just shudder because I know how it's coming across to a number of people. 

Melanie and the gang


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Melanie,

That would all be much more applicable if a rescue person had started a thread on why rescuing was better than adopting. But that's not what this thread was about. 

How do you know we're not writing articles and educating in exactly the way you describe? I'd venture to guess that most of us are. But the OP asked for insight on why the people who were unhappy with her decision felt that way, and that's what we've given. 

Look at Lucina's posts - ask her if she felt that I looked down on her for buying Lucy or if I was preachy about rescue when we met. I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I really don't think she'd tell you that I was and the reason that I doubt she thought I was looking down on her choice, was that I WASN'T looking down on her choice. It's the same choice that I've made myself and I think Lucy is a great dog with a great owner. That's all beside the point.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

My next dog will be from rescue. I loved the feelings I got when we both (the dog and I) began the relationship the same way-- hopeful, softly trusting, gently trying and learning eachother and learning to live life together. We both felt open, hopeful, a bit unsure at first... but we "held eachother's hands," so to speak. Does anyone who rescues know what I mean? My first 2 dogs were rescues. 

That said, Grimm came from a fantastic breeder. Grimm and I love eachother without question. Breeder dogs give back and appreciate love, too. But my next dog will be an adult rescue-- probably 5 - 6 years old or older, from our animal shelter system here in Germany. There's always a heart just waiting to take my love, and give it back, too.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

Maybe I worded my OP incorrectly.

I wasn't seeking a debate on which is a "better" choice, as it is obvious to many what the better choice it.

And I don't want to waste any more time on semantics.

I was basically just asking what is it about people who responsibly obtain a dog from a reputable breeder that still puts off some people.

People did give me their input, I countered that with my inferences and attempted to verify their accuracy. Some inferences were accurate, some not. This is what a discussion is. You say something, another tries to understand what you mean by it, and then you say whether or not their inference is correct.

This question has nothing to do about "A" is better because of this. "B" is worse because of this.

What I was looking for, and what I got and learned was "People who A are upset by people who B responsibly mainly because..."

I don't know why this had to become confrontational. If some people were seeking a scapegoat to vent some of their frustration, then glad I could be of assistance. but I think directing it at someone who was/is willing to learn and educate was non-sequitur.

All in all, and please, correct me if I'm wrong, what I got is that it's possible many people who are strong supporters of adoption are upset by people who get a dog responsibly from a reputable breeder because responsibly getting a dog from a reputable breeder is not enough. It is a waste to seek out a companion from a breeder when you can find the same kind of companion in a rescue and keep one more perfectly lovable companion from certain death. That's the frustrating thing.

Yes?


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## lovemyShepherd (Feb 10, 2006)

purpresq I cant agree with you MORE.. As a former Animal Control worker who has dedicated my life to rescuing homeless animals one small life at a time.. 

I am not against a RESPONSIBLE BREEDER because I would hate to loose any of our wonderful breeds. But In my opinion Responsible breeders make sure their puppies are spayed and neutered.. I make sure every dog that passes through my hands are spayed or neutered why cant they?

But most important I feel a responsible breeder are in the war with us along side of rescue seeing the death and destruction and rescuing thier chosen breeds

I feel their are very few actual Responsible Breeders


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I have yet to meet someone who said that they bought their adorable puppy (not less or more adorable than those that die in the gas chamber) from an irresponsible breeder. People who buy from a breeder all brag as to how much money they paid for their perfect puppy and what a wonderful breeder it was. We had an applicant who bought a puppy from an Amish puppy mill and she was extremely proud of herself as to what a wonderful breeder she got the dog from. 
Since everybody gets their dogs from wonderful and responsible breeders (and shelters a full of death row animals), the statement that someone is getting a dog from a responsible breeder does not carry a lot of weight (at least not in my neck of the woods).


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:All in all, and please, correct me if I'm wrong, what I got is that it's possible many people who are strong supporters of adoption are upset by people who get a dog responsibly from a reputable breeder because responsibly getting a dog from a reputable breeder is not enough. It is a waste to seek out a companion from a breeder when you can find the same kind of companion in a rescue and keep one more perfectly lovable companion from certain death. That's the frustrating thing.
> 
> Yes?


No. That is by and large NOT the most important part of what we've been saying and I don't think anyone has used the word "waste." The real issue goes far beyond the exchange of one dog for one dog, and one home lost or one home gained. It's the perpetuation of a system. Or the perceived perpetuation of a system, if you prefer. 

And RebelGSD - you are ABSOLUTELY correct. Everyone thinks they got their dog from a "responsible" breeder. I hear that every day but 99.9% of what they describe as such sure doesn't meet my definition!


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

Is it a facet of what you've been saying? 

Is it a matter of intent? Why you're getting a dog from a reputable breeder? If, as some have said, you are responsibly getting a dog from a reputable breeder in order to have a working dog, that is acceptable?

And what, then, is the most important thing to take away from the question of why staunch adopters are so bothered by people who get their dogs from responsible breeders?

ETA: The perpetuation of the system is why people are bothered by people who get from responsible breeders.

Again, "waste" is not putting words into anyone's mouths. I am not getting into a discussion on semantics as I've mentioned before. I can't flip through an idiom book every time I post. Perhaps "irresponsible" or "not as good" would be suitable.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

No, at least on the part of your classmates, no. I think _you've_ been looking at intent but I don't think intent is the bigger issue on their end of it. It's not even a question of "acceptable." If I get a working dog from a breeder, I'm still not rescuing a dog, and if I get that working dog from a breeder that is churning out dogs or even one that doesn't take it's dogs back or or or, then I'm helping perpetuate a system that kills dogs.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqNo, at least on the part of your classmates, no. I think _you've_ been looking at intent but I don't think intent is the bigger issue on their end of it. It's not even a question of "acceptable." If I get a working dog from a breeder, I'm still not rescuing a dog, and if I get that working dog* from a breeder that is churning out dogs or even one that doesn't take it's dogs back* or or or, then I'm helping perpetuate a system that kills dogs.


I think I see what you are driving at now. But by reputable breeder, I mean the opposite of the bolded part of your reply.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Again, "waste" is not putting words into anyone's mouths. I am not getting into a discussion on semantics as I've mentioned before. I can't flip through an idiom book every time I post. Perhaps "irresponsible" or "not as good" would be suitable.


You don't have to open an idiom book, you just need to listen to what people are saying. You are using a value-laden word in what certainly appears to be an attempt to characterize the people who think adoption is a more ethical choice as being more extreme or negative than they in fact are. You have done the same thing several times. If you are sincere in your desire to understand, then you need to understand that you yourself are fueling the acrimony when you do this.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:But by reputable breeder, I mean the opposite of the bolded part of your reply.


But as Rebel said, nearly everyone thinks they got their dog from a "reputable" breeder. It's not as though there was some bright shining line between "good" and "bad" here. There are breeders on this board I think are reputable and there are breeders on this board who some might think are reputable but who I do not feel are reputable. There is a large measure of personal opinion that comes into play here.

And as I've said a couple times, even breeders on the more reputable end of the spectrum can contribute to pet overpopulation, even if they take steps to avoid it. And secondly, your audience may or may not find the argument of breed preservation or even the need for ANY breeding, reputable or otherwise, to be a compelling argument while so many dogs who are already here are dying. 

That last part isn't necessarily my view but it's widely held.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I personally discourage people who are very picky (like not finding the perfect dog for years) and look for that "perfect" puppy from adopting and refer them to reputable breeders. Those who have not found the "perfect" dog for years are unlikely to find it among the 2-3 we have. It is likely that even the best rescue dog is not going to be "perfect" enough for them. Some people are only capable of appreciating "items" they pay a lot of money for and are much more likely to spend a lot of money on training and vet care for a dog they paid thousands of dollars for than for training a twenty buck, or two hundred buck dog. They are going to have a harder time losing thousands of dollars they paid to the breeder than losing $200 when they return the dog to the rescue.

Between work, dogs and family I have no time left for "preaching" and no time or patience at all to deal with snobs (for the big bucks god does not pay me to do what everybody knows I should be doing).


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

yeah, I do that too. And there are PLENTY of people I run across that I don't want to get ANY dog, rescue or breeder or whatever. I have never forced the idea of rescue on anyone nor would I ever want to send a rescue dog into a home that didn't truly want them or regarded them as second best.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

I am still having trouble distinguishing between what you've said here about "still not rescuing a dog" and what I said in my previous post about getting from a reputable breeder rather than getting the same form of a companion by rescuing one, THUS not perpetuating the system.

You are reading way too much into my word choice and not the crux of my statements.

I by no means have intended to imply that I am judging people who adopt as extreme or negative. I have said many things the say the polar opposite.

I feel like you just want to argue with me something that I'm not quite seeing a point in arguing. You are putting words in _my_ mouth by saying I am trying to characterize people.

You need to listen to my question. Or maybe not. 

I am simply trying to, not so much anymore, since I've understood the reasons many other posters have provided, but I'm trying to understand what it is that upsets some people who adopt when someone gets from a reputable breeder. Period.

I do not disagree with anything you are saying relevant to this question. As my question does not require an answer that can be disagreed with...since I am seeking opinions.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> > Quote:But by reputable breeder, I mean the opposite of the bolded part of your reply.
> ...


I understand this. My confusion involves not "reputable" breeders, but those who are ACTUALLY reputable breeders. What you've just posted here has cleared up that confusion for me. Thank you.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

My $0.02 I have one purebred animal in my "zoo". The animal who is right for me, is the one I can't turn away. 
With the exception of 2 everyone else was unwanted at one time before they came to us. I'm fine with that, my life is richer because of it and if someone wants to look down on me because I don't know who my animal's parents were, they don't have a kennel name to back them up, well that's their issue, not mine. I'd love a purebred, well-bred dog, the chances are slim to none, because whenever we start to think about adding another animal, or even if we're not thinking of it, another little lost soul shows up on the doorstep, or up inside a snow blower









I don't look down on people who buy from breeders, unless they dump the animal or don't make a life-long commitment to it and if my heintz-57 crew offends anyone, look the other way. Although I doubt you will be able to, we are a comical crew all together!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I think that people who feel that they are not above adopting SHOULD get a dog from a reputable breeder. I don't have telepathic abilities so I don't know what upset your classmates (I can only guess based on the tone of your posts and will not elaborate it here). Maybe you should ask them if you really want to hear their opinion.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:You are putting words in my mouth by saying I am trying to characterize people.


Your "inferences" all seem to lean a certain way as my cut and paste yesterday illustrated.









But anyway, I'm trying to describe a somewhat subtle point that is perhaps getting lost in translation here, when I talk about the nature of the decision to rescue, versus to obtain a dog from a breeder. 



> Quote: getting from a reputable breeder rather than getting the same form of a companion by rescuing one, THUS not perpetuating the system


One disconnect is that you can't assume getting a dog from a "reputable" breeder does not perpetuate the system because there is no one definition of "reputable" and even the most reputable breeder can still inadvertantly add to the problem of unwanted pets.

As I've said, that may be an unavoidable cost of breed preservation, and so for me personally I can live with it, if all safeguards and efforts to prevent it from happening are in place, but for someone for whom breed preservation is a non-issue, then that argument will not resonate.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I understand this. My confusion involves not "reputable" breeders, but those who are ACTUALLY reputable breeders. What you've just posted here has cleared up that confusion for me. Thank you.


Cool!







My intent really is to clarify the point, not to argue. But this is an important issue about which there's a lot of misunderstanding.

The problem of course remains that "reputable" is a value judgement. There is no one "actually reputable" so that's part of the problem.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RebelGSDI think that people who feel that they are not above adopting SHOULD get a dog from a reputable breeder. I don't have telepathic abilities so I don't know what upset your classmates (I can only guess based on the tone of your posts and will not elaborate it here). Maybe you should ask them if you really want to hear their opinion.


Apologies on my tone. Any tone afflictions were responses to feeling like a scapegoat here when I'm not really seeing that I'm in the scapegoat boat.

I will elaborate anything you want, but no one asked. I didn't ask the people in the class because I gathered from their tone that they would just lash out, as they did to others in the class on different but similar subjects.

I asked it here, figuring the anger and desire to lash out would be less likely. But I guess in the ambiguity of computer screens separate up, it's easier for some to throw propriety out the window.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

After reading this thread, my advice (as a person who rescues) to you would be to get a dog from a reputable breeder.

Take it or leave it.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I didn't ask the people in the class because I gathered from their tone that they would just lash out, as they did to others in the class on different but similar subjects.


It may be that your "gathering" led you to an incorrect interpretation. 



> Quote: I asked it here, figuring the anger and desire to lash out would be less likely. *But I guess in the ambiguity of computer screens separate up, it's easier for some to throw propriety out the window. *





> Quote:I will elaborate anything you want, but no one asked.


Okay, I'm asking - what do you mean by the statement above?







Because it appears to be an accusation, one I haven't seen substantiated here, but I wouldn't want to assume.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RebelGSDAfter reading this thread, my advice (as a person who rescues) to you would be to get a dog from a reputable breeder.
> 
> Take it or leave it.


I guess I'll leave it, because, as I've said several times, I am not asking whether or not I should adopt. 

I've already made up my mind on what I will do in that regard. And after reading what many of you have had to say, my preference is now to adopt, whereas before, I would check shelters over and over and if the opportunity from a reputable breeder came up, I would consider that as well.

Now though, after getting to the cruz of issues people have with getting from a reputable breeder, it is more logical for me to adopt.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

*Pupresq*, 

It was one of those intro days where you go around the room, and talk about yourself and your dog. When myself and others mentioned they got their dog from a breeder, there was an audible groan from at least 5 people in the class (which I now understand why there was a groan).

When certain people said they checked with trainers, did their research, interviewed breeders and met the parents, grand parents, etc and found a puppy. More audible groans. When it got to some of those people, they said "I have X amount of dogs. I got them from shelters. I always get from shelters. I don't know why anyone would go to a breeder. I think it's disgusting." So on and so forth.

What I meant about elaborating (if thats the statement you're referring to), is I gave a machine gun version of what happened in the class when I problem should've realized the more information, the better.

If you're referring to the part in bold, it's that I came here expecting a civil conversation with no or limited hostility. I was greeted with hostility when I was trying to understand.

I think it's easier to be hostile/rude/mean/condescending/etc. to a stranger when you're not face to face, meaning on a message board where we all have anonymity.

I appreciate all of you for sharing your opinions on my question and I am grateful for having learned many different things. Thank you all very much. And for those of you who still want to bite my head off, my head is probably not very tasty! No hard feelings.

Good night and good luck.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I do not have a problem with you at all. 

I am glad you brought this to light. I want this discussion out there and I want people to read this and be educated. 

Sorry, to the other poster, I did not get the name Melanie from Alaska, maybe,
I take more offense to rescue people being called preachy, not by you, You say you know people who complain about rescue people. Maybe you were not talking about me at all. 

That just blows my mind that people find fault in what shelter or rescue people are doing. What kind of people could say stuff like that? I just have no time for them and really do not know what to say,







I do not think the CAN be educated if they do not GET IT. 

If they do not want to "come to the side of rescue" as someone put it, because of the RESCUERS?? That just does not make sense. 

WHAT ABOUT THE DOGS??? Now they have rescuers being used against them?? That is just nuts!! 

Also I want to admit, this has enlighted me OP (SharkB8), the next time I meet a person with a breeders pup. I will keep my attitude in check. (I feel I always do, because like I mentioned before I agree with breed preservation). 

I will ask questions, be polite and try to offer education right there on the spot. I am just always afraid for the puppy they are holding. Like I am condeming it. 

Really I never know what to do. Because there are just SO little good breeders left.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Kelly, I do not think that this is a problem of their being to few good breeders left. I think the problem is that people want what they want and aren't willing to bend or put forth a decent amount of effort. What I mean is, they don't like the price, or they want an oversized dog, or a "pet quality" dog that is a lazy couch potato.....so many people want things from a GSD that is just NOT a GSD. They decide they want a puppy and they want it within a week. They aren't willing to do research to meet a few breeders before making a selection, to learn about the breed and WHY things like size, coat, temperament, drive are actually important. It's the "I want what I want and want it NOW" that's the problem, not the people that are true breed fanciers and have dedicated a better part of their lives to this breed. So long as these impulse buyers exist, we will have puppy mills and BYBs meeting their demands. So many people will spend more time picking out an iPod than choosing their family pet.

Also, the second good breeders start producing more litters, they are accused of contributing to overpopulation. So which is it? They should offer more *good* dogs to the public, or it's their fault dogs are dumped in shelters?

Like others mentioned earlier, this creates even more issues because everyone seems to think their dog came from a "reputable breeder". It's not even worth trying to define b/c it's such a loaded term these days.

All I know is that when I get a dog from a breeder I am getting it because I want THAT DOG. Not A dog, not A GERMAN SHEPHERD dog, I want *THAT* dog, from THOSE parents, of that line, etc. Two and a half years worth of research went into my GSD puppy. During that time, I adopted one dog from a rescue, fostered two cats (and offered to foster 5 more but homes were found in time), helped pull or match up four German Shepherds stuck in shelters, and walked/trained countless dogs for the local humane society.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: SharkB8When myself and others mentioned they got their dog from a breeder, there was an audible groan from at least 5 people in the class (which I now understand why there was a groan).


Sorry but *I* don't understand. I would NEVER criticize someone - that has made the intelligent choice to bring their puppy to a training class - about where they got their puppy.

Sorry but if that had been me in the class I would have turned to those people and challenged their audible response. They do not know me, nor do they know what "breeder" I got my puppy from.

Yes, there are bad breeders out there. There are also bad rescues. Just because it is a rescue doesn't make it "better".



> Quote:When certain people said they checked with trainers, did their research, interviewed breeders and met the parents, grand parents, etc and found a puppy. More audible groans.


Sounds like the type of people often referred to as 'Rescue Nazis'. No matter WHAT you do - only a rescued dog is the right choice.



> Quote: When it got to some of those people, they said "I have X amount of dogs. I got them from shelters. I always get from shelters. I don't know why anyone would go to a breeder. I think it's disgusting."


At this point I would have stood up, asked for a refund and found another training class.

To me, these people are the same as people who say 'All (insert any breed here) are vicious' or stupid or whatever. They consider themselves to be "experts" in whatever and you won't change their minds.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:All I know is that when I get a dog from a breeder I am getting it because I want THAT DOG. Not A dog, not A GERMAN SHEPHERD dog, I want *THAT* dog, from THOSE parents, of that line, etc


You hit the nail on the head! That, to me, is EXACTLY the reason to buy a dog. There's no value judgement there, it is what it is. If I bought a dog that would be why I did it too. Rescuing can be about the same thing, but often there's an additional element of wanting to save a life, help a dog, reduce a problem etc. And that's great. People who buy should be okay with that first reason being enough, as I think you are.









Reading back over the thread this morning, I disagree with the OP's assessment. 

She said:


> Quote:I was greeted with hostility when I was trying to understand.


But these are the comments that greeted her:


> Quote: I will always go through a rescue or shelter for any pet, but I don't expect everyone to feel that way. There is nothing at all wrong with getting a puppy from a reputable breeder.





> Quoteon't let your friends guilt you. Nothing wrong with a rescue dog or a breeder dog. It's what you want.





> Quote: It is a personal choice and neither one is wrong


I'm not really sure I ever saw "hostility", at least not from the rescue side of things (I did see some rescue people called "nazis" and fanatics). What I mainly saw were people who were passionate about saving dogs trying to be understood. And things didn't heat up until several posts for the OP after the original question.

There have been many different people who posted on the thread with statements about how they had bought their dogs and I didn't see them attacked. I didn't see hostility. People post every day about their new puppy elsewhere on the board. I don't see them attacked. I don't see any hostility about where they got their dog, of if it happens, it's extremely rare. At most, if it's obvious the dog came from a not so great source, people will offer some gentle education. Read through all of Lauri's recent posts about her adorable new puppy Mauser. ALL I see are people congratulating her on his adorableness, much as they did for her recent adoptee. I see no hostility and no preaching. Same is true on Nikon's threads.

As far as what the people in the class did or didn't do - we weren't there and we don't know. 

Shark8B, I am not attacking you but I think you should really consider whether your attitude and statements might be contributing to the perceived disapproval of the people in your class as well as the "hostility" you perceived here. I don't think you're doing it on purpose but I know how I felt when you twisted my words and then denied doing it. It seems to be possible that something similar happened at class. 

I find that when we have these disagreements with people it's helpful to look inward as well as outward for explanation. When I read back over my posts, I can see where I was grouchy from pain and typing sideways on my keyboard (can only lie on my side) and could have said things better even if I stand by their meaning. I can look at that and learn from it for next time. 

I encourage you to do the same. It may be that you were being more defensive than you realized because of an internal conflict or guilt that you're bringing to the table or that people weren't reacting to what you thought they were.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Lies, that is what my DH is saying all the time when we hear someone went to a breeder, they wanted it now, he said people do not want to fill out paper work, get a home visit, wait for the animal to be spayed sometimes, etc. 

That rescues want to much. 

I know you are both right. If is very frustrating. 

I guess I can be guilty of that too, I see a dog I go with my heart, it has a home. I guess the difference is I do not return it. 

Even when I found Bella on the hwy and thought, what now? Shelter? I could not put another dog in the system, I stopped by car, she is my responsability now, (not saying that is not a good thing to get a dog off the streets and into a shelter)
and I fell in love with her.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> > Quote:All I know is that when I get a dog from a breeder I am getting it because I want THAT DOG. Not A dog, not A GERMAN SHEPHERD dog, I want *THAT* dog, from THOSE parents, of that line, etc
> ...


See then we are in agreement. When we toyed with the idea of a second dog, we both knew it would be a rescue. Why? We just wanted a DOG. It's not like I had a certain litter, breeder, stud, line, etc in mind. We wanted a dog that would be more in line with what DH wants in a dog, which is just a goofy, lovey companion to play fetch. Kenya's temperament was great for me but a little too focused/intense for DH. He has no interest in breeds, training, showing....ask him his favorite breed and he will say whatever is the last breed he met at the pet store! (pit bull, boston terrier, chocolate lab, portuguese water dog....) So we found some rescue dogs, initially it was going to be a Boxer (back then DH's favorite was a boxer, lol), but he was already taken so we looked at a German shepherd mix they had. Kenya hated him and he had some issues I did not feel we would be prepared to work with. We contacted another rescue where I got a cat and went to meet this mutt that they had and ended up going home with him. Anytime we are getting dogs for DH, or for the family, they will be rescues (and probably always adults).


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm saying that I felt that there was some hostility.

In the beginning, no. When I tried to reiterate my question and respond with questions trying to understand, I felt was where it kicked in. I was not alone in noticing this, as other posters seemed to have also noticed and commented on it. Whether you saw/contributed to it or not, I felt there was some there.

You selected all of the good and informative responses, which I also read and appreciated.

It felt like, to me, because I laid down my arms and came on here to ask some questions and get do the heart of the matter, some took this as an opportunity to vent their frustrations they have with people who are not like me in any way. You got what you got out of it, I got what I got.

And I guess I didn't ask my OP correctly, since the first answers I got were about which was a better choice, which wasn't exactly my question. 

Maybe some of you thought I was trying to incite something by asking why or something but it definitely got heated. I guess that's the thing about passion.

I also felt my words and intentions were twisted. I've apologized to you several times for coming across that way and at this point, I don't know what else to do in order for you to understand that.

And I'm not a nut. I'm not a jerk. (not that I'm saying you're calling me a nut or a jerk) I have considered that maybe it's me.

I already paraphrased what was said in the class. I didn't twist those words.

I feel I only became defensive when people were coming down on me for something completely irrelevant to my question.

It was frustrating trying not to get in a discussion about what's a better method for getting a dog. That was never my question, but that's what a lot of people wanted to answer. Which is fine, but I still wanted people's thoughts on my question. That was what was frustrating me. For every one person answering my question, I had another 3 about what's bad about breeders.

You can bring all the psychology you want in here, but it's really not about guilt. Of course my heart aches for dogs who don't have homes. Of course my heart goes out to those who rescue every opportunity they can get. I absolutely wish I could do more. I absolutely wish everyone on the planet could do more and would do more. Just because I haven't *yet* rescued a dog and have a dog from a breeder doesn't automatically come with guilt for me. Because I was raised by parents who were raised to believe a "mutt" is a "mutt" and not as good and purebreds are great. Because I was raised this way, I had to learn on my own that there is nothing wrong with a shelter dog and nothing wrong with a mutt. And I learned this about 10 years ago.

I don't feel guilty because now I know. And I know that I can save a dog's life when I can. And because I know I can educate others about rescue and why it's a good choice. Why it helps. But that wasn't what I learned from this thread.

What I learned from this thread was what I mentioned a few posts ago. I've learned a great deal about the toughest and most frustrating facets of rescue efforts. And that I will carry with me and relay.

You can nitpick word choice and my psychology and my possible guilt and clouded perception, but I'm finished with explaining that I witnessed something peculiar and was curious about the motives.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: It felt like, to me, because I laid down my arms and came on here to ask some questions and get do the heart of the matter, some took this as an opportunity to vent their frustrations they have with people who are not like me in any way.


But I'm pretty sure if you asked any of the people who responded to you, they would tell you that's not what they were doing. And when you're arguing about _their_ intent - who better to tell you their intent than _them_? I don't disagree that your _interpretation_ of it was as you say, but then, that's my point. I think you may be misinterpreting what people are saying to you and why they're saying it. 

But if you learned something new and got your question answered, then hopefully this thread accomplished something. 

The only reason I'm beating the dead horse is that I think creating an attack where there isn't one intended, only serves to deepen the divide and create acrimony where it doesn't need to be. Which is sort of the flip side of the same idea that Melanie was alluding to. It works both ways. 

You might try talking to the people in your class. You might find you have more in common with them than you thought, if you really listen.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986Lies, that is what my DH is saying all the time when we hear someone went to a breeder, they wanted it now, he said people do not want to fill out paper work, get a home visit, wait for the animal to be spayed sometimes, etc.




What your DH says is the reasons is very different from what Lies said. What Lies said was that she went to a breeder because she wanted a specific type of dog, from a specific bloodline for a specific purpose. Nothing about wanting to take the easy way.. it was all about what she wanted in a dog and choosing to go the route that gave her the best chances of getting what she wanted.

We've had people gladly sit on our waiting list for 1-2 years waiting for the right dog. Then they have to go through a 2-3 hour interview, reference checks, read and sign a 6 page contract, agree to our limited registration requirements or spay/neuter contract depending on the situation, etc.... And pay a lot more than they would for a dog from rescue. Of course not every breeder does that, though there are many who do. But it'd definitely erroneous to automatically assume someone went with a breeder because it was easier or quicker than rescue.

It's not about which is easier, quicker or has less hoops to jump through, it's about finding the dog that is the best fit for their desires and goals. Sometimes that is a dog from a breeder, sometimes it's a rescue. It's a personal choice. 

Everyone would be much better served if rather than all this "us vs them" attitude between rescues and breeders, complete with the condescending and judgmental attitudes, finger pointing, guilt trips and snide comments, BOTH sides focused their energy more on educating the people looking for dogs on the different avenues available and the pros and cons of each, so they make GOOD choices. Doesn't matter if any one person or camp agrees with their choice, what matters is that it is the right choice for that individual person's situation. 

There would be far fewer bad, irresponsible breeders producing puppies, far fewer health and temperament problems in the breed, and far fewer ignorant owners getting in over their heads and then dumping dogs.. and thus far fewer dogs suffering in shelters, far less work for the rescues, and far less headache and heartache for all of us... if the dog buying public was better educated so they could make good choices. But they're not going to learn to be educated, or be willing to stick around long enough to get educated, if they're immediately turned off by all this nastiness and in-fighting between different sides.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm sure I have oodles in common with them. They weren't disgusted enough by the way Maxx came to be in my family to not engage in classroom discussions pertinant to the class with me. It's not that serious of an issue. I figured this would be a small question with like 6 or 7 people saying, "My frustration comes from when people feel like I want A dog and want it now." or "Because they feel so wretched seeing great, lovable dogs, put down when someone else talks about going to a breeder for the same dog." Or all of the other reasons people have said here. The class ended a year ago, like I said, it's not wearing on my soul, I just had a casual curiosity about it.

I'm not making up the hostility, as I said, others have mentioned they noticed it to.

Instead of saying, "So you're saying X." I should've said, "Do you mean X?" Because they way I phrased my verification questions was received by "you're putting words in my mouth." Which, essentially was putting words and intent in my mouth. Because I in no way intended to put words in anyone's mouth. Just trying to see if what I was getting out of it was correct. A simple, "No. That's not at all what I'm trying to say. What I'm saying is X" would've been sufficient.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:BOTH sides focused their energy more on educating the people looking for dogs on the different avenues available and the pros and cons of each, so they make GOOD choices.


I think a lot of us agree with that. 

I don't want to speak for Daisy, but I think she was referring to a different comment by Lies. 

I think this is the quote from Lies that Daisy meant:


> Quote:I do not think that this is a problem of their being to few good breeders left. I think the problem is that people want what they want and aren't willing to bend or put forth a decent amount of effort. What I mean is, they don't like the price, or they want an oversized dog, or a "pet quality" dog that is a lazy couch potato.....so many people want things from a GSD that is just NOT a GSD. They decide they want a puppy and they want it within a week. They aren't willing to do research to meet a few breeders before making a selection, to learn about the breed and WHY things like size, coat, temperament, drive are actually important. It's the "I want what I want and want it NOW" that's the problem, not the people that are true breed fanciers and have dedicated a better part of their lives to this breed. So long as these impulse buyers exist, we will have puppy mills and BYBs meeting their demands. So many people will spend more time picking out an iPod than choosing their family pet.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Instead of saying, "So you're saying X." I should've said, "Do you mean X?" Because they way I phrased my verification questions was received by "you're putting words in my mouth." Which, essentially was putting words and intent in my mouth. Because I in no way intended to put words in anyone's mouth. Just trying to see if what I was getting out of it was correct. A simple, "No. That's not at all what I'm trying to say. What I'm saying is X" would've been sufficient.


Sigh. You are doing exactly what you are accusing other people of doing but I'm not sure how else to say it so it makes sense to you.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildEveryone would be much better served if rather than all this "us vs them" attitude between rescues and breeders, complete with the condescending and judgmental attitudes, finger pointing, guilt trips and snide comments, BOTH sides focused their energy more on educating the people looking for dogs on the different avenues available and the pros and cons of each, so they make GOOD choices.
> 
> There would be far fewer bad, irresponsible breeders producing puppies, far fewer health and temperament problems in the breed, and far fewer ignorant owners getting in over their heads and then dumping dogs.. and thus far fewer dogs suffering in shelters, far less work for the rescues, and far less headache and heartache for all of us if the dog buying public was better educated. But they're not going to learn to be educated, or be willing to stick around long enough to get educated, if they're immediately turned off by all this nastiness and in-fighting between different sides.


I cannot agree with this post more. And again, I am sorry if my comments came across as nasty. But you couldn't be more right that civil education of people will contribute to the fight more efficiently.

Just an observation. People who go to pet stores or have the "Gimme a doggie now" mentality cannot ever affectively argue that their method is better. People do get set in their ways, just as those who rescue are set in their ways. The difference is that those who rescue can effectively argue against BYBs, Pet shops, buying from bad breeders, etc. until the cows come home, but if it falls on deaf ears, it's not going to help.

Open, passionate, but civil discussion is key. If you tried telling my mom to adopt a GSD from a shelter, she'd probably say no way. And many others would to. If you preach and yell the facts, it's not going to work. Sadly, it's strategic with some people. 

Every Wednesday, the women's clinic down the street has people protesting and lining the streets with disturbing images. I get livid because I don't have kids, but if I did and they saw that in the morning on their way to school, I think I would brain someone. And it just makes me so angry, I would NEVER listen to what they have to say. But if they said, "You shouldn't do this because of these reasons. If you'd like, I can show you some images, but they're disturbing." I think most would be more inclined to listen.

You catch more flies with honey?


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqSigh. You are doing exactly what you are accusing other people of doing but I'm not sure how else to say it so it makes sense to you.


I've gotta shut down now, because I am not getting how you are getting what you are getting and I also don't know what I can say.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: But you couldn't be more right that civil education of people will contribute to the fight more efficiently.


ABSOLUTELY!!!







Which is a great reason not to foster an us/them fight when there's a good chance, that's not what it was really about in the first place. You draw good people into taking sides against each other and it's the dogs that suffer.


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqABSOLUTELY!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bada bing, bada boom


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## SharkB8 (Jul 28, 2008)

Something else that's come to me, going off of the education notion, we all have to do what we can to educate.

As I mentioned before, we have a video production company and shoot for shelters. I think this region (New England) could really use a good documentary locally. Doing what you can with what you've got, right?

There are more contributing factors than I could ever imagine and many different sentiments. I'm impressed and surprised by this but I think it's important that Joe 6-pack (yeah, him again) could see what so many have seen behind the scenes of a shelter and portray both sides as civilly as possible.

I know people who are so divided on other issues that passion is attributed to "whackjobiness." It's important to get the passion across in a receptive enough way and I think that will be my next goal/project.

Thanks again sports fans.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I am not singling out any one person – I just collected random statements from this thread.



> Quote:I still think that *adoption is morally the better thing to do.* I have no idea why this simple truth offends anyone.





> Quote:Adopting saves lives, buying doesn't, but at least if you buy from a really reputable source then *you are minimizing any collateral damage to the extent you can*, and good for that.





> Quote: next time I meet a person with a breeders pup. I will keep my attitude in check. (I feel I always do, because like I mentioned before I agree with breed preservation). I will ask questions, be polite and try to offer education right there on the spot. *I am just always afraid for the puppy they are holding. Like I am condeming it.*





> Quote: “I have X amount of dogs. I got them from shelters. I always get from shelters. *I don't know why anyone would go to a breeder. I think it's disgusting.*"


Am I the only one that reads these statements and sees nothing BUT negativity? Am I the only one that reads these statements and gets the feeling that people that rescued a dog feel they are better than me because I bought my dog from a breeder?




> Quote:I still think that *adoption is morally the better thing to do.* I have no idea why this simple truth offends anyone.


So, what does that make me? If I didn’t adopt then I’m what – less moral that someone who did?

BTW – it’s your _opinion_ – not a truth.



> Quote: next time I meet a person with a breeders pup. I will keep my attitude in check. (I feel I always do, because like I mentioned before I agree with breed preservation). I will ask questions, be polite and try to offer education right there on the spot. *I am just always afraid for the puppy they are holding. Like I am condeming it.*


Why on earth would you feel you are condemning the puppy? Talk about prejudging people – just because the puppy came from a breeder?




> Quote: “I have X amount of dogs. I got them from shelters. I always get from shelters. I don't know why anyone would go to a breeder. I think it's disgusting."


So if they think that going to a breeder is disgusting, then I must be disgusting because I went to a breeder, right?

Would you tell someone that is pregnant that they have lower morals than people who adopt a child?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yes, I see negativity. Think buying from a breeder is bad, try BEING a breeder sometimes. I've had some experiences with rescues and had things said to me far, far worse than anything in this thread. Ironically, by far the most nasty comments and horrible treatment I've ever been subjected to by rescue people came when I was trying to help by rescuing some dogs.









Some can't get past breeder = evil and person who supports breeder = evil. Just like some breeders and PB enthusiasts can't get past thinking rescue dogs and shelter dogs are inferior, defective, et...

But, I do think for the most part those cases of negativity aren't the norm. There are always a few bad apples. Even though it's those bad ones that stink the most and are the most noticeable and memorable, they are the minority.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:Am I the only one that reads these statements and sees nothing BUT negativity? Am I the only one that reads these statements and gets the feeling that people that rescued a dog feel they are better than me because I bought my dog from a breeder?


If you only pull out the negative part then you'll get nothing but negativity. However each of those people also said positive things in their posts. 

And where you are comparing "people" who buy to "people" who don't, I think a lot if not all of the people making those comments are comparing the action of adopting to the action of buying. I know I was. I am not saying anything about the people one way or another. Many of the people on this thread have both bought AND adopted, myself included. I can evaluate what I feel is the relative moral weight of my decisions along with many other factors. Adoption of a child is a great example. I have a child that I adopted as a 6 year old. Our decision to give him a home was largely a moral one. I may at some point have a biological child. My decision to do that will be because I want to have a child that is a biological part of both my husband and myself. That is something I want because I want it, not because it's the moral thing. And that's okay! I don't think either one makes me a good or bad person, I'm just talking about the moral weight of those decisions.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

What saddens me the most about this entire thread is that there is actually a huge amount of common ground here and it's getting lost in an us/them fight that never really was the issue. The OP says that's not what she wanted but the very title of the thread invites it.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

Since you chose one of my sentences, I'd like to ask you to read the REST of my post, too. Please?








As Pupresq said, and I said the same thing, when you compare the two options of obtaining a dog, adoption vs. buying, I think it's pretty obvious why one is better than the other if you see it from a purely moral, ethical point of view. 

I think people rarely do anything for a singular reason. We all have many different motives in all things, and getting a dog is the same in this respect.

Let's say I wanted a dog right now.
I would weigh in a lot of factors; one is that it has to fit in our family: so it has to be a male, laid back personality, tolerant of a ton of stuff, not chase cats, preferably housetrained, not too small or too big. I also prefer dark colored dogs in general, but this would really be a marginal thing.
Now, with all this in place, I have a ton of choices about how to get this dog, right?
I can buy one from a newpaper, or craigslist, or get the neighbor's if he happens to want to get rid of his, I could see if any of the breeders I like (Yep, there are MANY whom I would LOVE to own a dog from), and see if they have any adults for sale, etc. I could also get one from a shelter or a rescue.

My most important factor at this point would be that I need to choose the dog well. It has to be a good fit. 

The second most important thing would be -for me- that if possible, I'd like to get the dog from someone I can trust to tell me the truth about the dog. 
That leaves the good breeders and the rescues.

The third factor would be that if possible, I'd rather save a dog than not. Again, my choice, I like doing this, I think it's the better way to get this done. I personally get a kick out of the fact that it would be a lost soul, and the rescue could go ahead and save another one if I get this from them. That's why I think it's the better choice. Saving a life is morally better than not saving one, is it not?

BUT. If for some reason when I'd need to get a dog, and I could not get one from where I'd like to, then I would go for the second best option for me, an adult from a breeder. And I would not feel that I am being an evil person, I'd know that right then and there it would be the best for us. That's it.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)




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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Yes Chris, what pupresq was saying. 

I was referring to what Lies said about people not taking the time to find a good breeder. 

Also not allow time to find a good rescue or deal with rescue paper wk and home checks. 

If you look back at my posts Chris I have been defending good breeders, not making it us vs them.









Whoa, I am abanding this thread. I wish this forum was not this way. We are all DOG lovers like someone said earlier about good ownership, and the OP being an excellant owner....
I think I have said all I can say.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: AndreaGwhen you compare the two options of obtaining a dog, adoption vs. buying, I think it's pretty obvious why one is better than the other if you see it from a purely moral, ethical point of view.


Assuming one is getting a dog to make a moral, ethical statement. But that's not why a lot of people get dogs....


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

...and isn't that EXACTLY what I was saying?







Geez, I really wonder if for some reason large parts of my posts just don't appear on some of your screens.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangAm I the only one that reads these statements and sees nothing BUT negativity? Am I the only one that reads these statements and gets the feeling that people that rescued a dog feel they are better than me because I bought my dog from a breeder?


No Lauri, you are not the only one. After reading this thread I have the feeling that the OP is trying to continue a civilized discussion with some religious or should I say rescue? fanatics. And reasoning with fanatics of any kind is impossible. After reading some posts I truly think I won't go to rescue even though I considered this just so I don't have to interact with 'rescue nazis'.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

OK. Had to come back. This is really getting ugly. 

I really take offense to the "rescue nazis" term. 

WHO MAKES MONEY OFF OF DOGS??? 
AND WHO IS NON FOR PROFIT?? 

You wanna draw lines we can draw lines.

I cannot believe this whole thread has went this way. And caring people are being called nazis.









This whole thing is very upsetting.


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## chuckstar158 (Sep 8, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986OK. Had to come back. This is really getting ugly.
> 
> I really take offense to the "rescue nazis" term.
> 
> ...


Daisy... I'm with you. I have been called some ugly things but considering that most people were nothing but nice to the OP... I take offense. Too bad but it's looking more like it's time to lock this thread.

Just to add. I may be a "rescue nazi" but it goes both ways. 

I have been told that my dogs didn't deserve the time of day since they had show faults (floppy ears) and were "obviously someone else's garbage" by guess who... a breeder who is on this site. Obviously, someone I don't contact personally anymore.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Good greif. 

I just read back and saw that a MOD was misinter. my comments. I did not even mean that negative. 

What the heck is going on. 

Really what i noticed to about this thread is there is only one breeder here. It is mainly the people that have bought. 

I am going back to the urgent section where I belong. 

What chance do I have of educating people out in the world of a dog forum does not understand rescue and shelters?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986OK. Had to come back. This is really getting ugly.
> 
> I really take offense to the "rescue nazis" term.
> 
> ...


I find that offensive as well, but is this supposed to imply that good breeders make a profit off their dogs? Not true.

I don't think there needs to be lines. Like Lauri, pupresq, and others have said adopting dogs and purchasing dogs is not mutually exclusive. Myself, many people here, and almost every "dog person" I know personally have both purchased a dog from a breeder AND adopted a dog(s) from rescue/shelter.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Yes I have been told on this board that Shadow is an undesirable color. (guess that means he will bring no money). 

OR faded, washed out...

Just met a guy the other day that knows a breeder that is breeding them big, American Tundras they call them 85 lbs or more...na that will not cause joint troubles. 

I am done, done, done, done.....I am just getting more upset.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: AndreaG...and isn't that EXACTLY what I was saying?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then I'm not sure why it was said in the first place? 

To me, people adopting dogs simply to make a moral statement that puts them on a pedestal is sort of like someone purchasing and outrageously priced purebred as if to prove that their dog is "better"....


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Folks, let's have some context - here are the "negative" quotes followed by other quotes and explanations from the same posters:



> Quote:I still think that adoption is morally the better thing to do. I have no idea why this simple truth offends anyone.


Okay, this one was Andrea. She has tried several times, quite eloquently to explain that she is talking about a moral judgement being one of many different considerations when obtaining a dog. She has also said that she herself would buy a dog if she could not find one in rescue that met her specific needs because fitting into her family is a greater priority for her than saving a life and she's comfortable with that. She's not calling herself a horrible or immoral person, she's just explaining the way that is part of the picture. Like if you have $100, you can donate it to charity or you can spend it on something you want. One of those choices is more moral, but neither one makes you a bad person. We make hundreds of different choices every day, we give the issue of morality more or less importance depending on the other issues at stake, it is one of many considerations. Our own personal morality or worth as a person is certainly not the product of any single one decision and she never said or implied that it was. Quite the contrary in fact. 

Next negative quote:


> Quote:Adopting saves lives, buying doesn't, but at least if you buy from a really reputable source then you are minimizing any collateral damage to the extent you can, and good for that.


This one was me. Here are some other quotes from me from this very same thread:


> Quote:So, as others have said, let's be super sure that we are only encouraging the very best breeders and not the other ones. I don't condemn other people for buying a dog from a really reputable breeder





> Quote: I'm going to be looking for something extremely specific. I would prefer to find that in rescue, but if I can't then I will likely to be getting a dog from a breeder that I feel meets the highest ethical standards.





> Quote:As I've said, I'm not condemning anyone for buying a dog and there are a couple breeders on this board that I respect enormously.





> Quote:I am in 100% agreement with Andrea. I've bought dogs before, I might do so again, if I do so it will be with every attempt to support only the most ethical and responsible of breeders


I think it's pretty clear that I'm not condemning all breeders. Nor all people who buy puppies:


> Quote:If your most enjoyable dog experience was raising a puppy from a breeder, then that's fine.





> Quote:I doubt she thought I was looking down on her choice, was that I WASN'T looking down on her choice. It's the same choice that I've made myself and I think Lucy is a great dog with a great owner.


I even went so far as to try to point out obvious evidence that we are not attacking those choices:


> Quote: People post every day about their new puppy elsewhere on the board. I don't see them attacked. I don't see any hostility about where they got their dog, of if it happens, it's extremely rare. At most, if it's obvious the dog came from a not so great source, people will offer some gentle education. Read through all of Lauri's recent posts about her adorable new puppy Mauser. ALL I see are people congratulating her on his adorableness, much as they did for her recent adoptee. I see no hostility and no preaching. Same is true on Nikon's threads.


Here's the one that really explains the context of the statement of mine that Lauri quoted:


> Quote: I've asked that question several times on previous threads, and the general consensus of the "good" breeders, and I really think most of them ARE good breeders, has been that at some point that responsibility falls on the people who bought the dog. And I can understand their position.
> 
> So where does that leave us? I think that some oops litters are probably the risk inherent in maintaining a few truly good breeders out there and I don't think they should all go away. *There are several people on this board who I am GLAD are producing GSDs because their GSDs are fantastic dogs and they are doing so in the most responsible way that they can*, even if that still entails some risk.


And here I reference the same concept again:


> Quote:even the most reputable breeder can still inadvertantly add to the problem of unwanted pets. As I've said, that may be an unavoidable cost of breed preservation, and so for me personally I can live with it, if all safeguards and efforts to prevent it from happening are in place


The next quote on the negatives parade is from Daisy1986. Here are some other quotes from her:


> Quote:When someone says something about you buying from a breeder. Defend your breeder. OR if it turned out to be a bad breeder, educate the person on finding a good one.





> Quote:If you are a good breeder (do we have to define), someone who is breeding to protect the breed, working dogs (some of the happiness GSD's there are, or seeing eye dogs. That is acceptable.





> Quote:If it makes you feel like I am bragging or trying to be a saint than so be it, that is NOT how it is meant. I am just trying to get to know people and being open, and also learning stuff every day myself. Always.





> Quote:Yes you are right. Thank you for starting this thread.


When you read her posts you can see that as a new rescuer she's really overwhelmed by the tragedy of pet overpopulation right now but that she still supports reputable breeders and is open minded and interested in learning more about the whole picture. She is not all negative by any stretch of the imagination.

And the quote about buying from breeders being "disgusting" *came from the OP* - paraphrasing what she felt others (not on the thread) were saying to her. No one on this thread said anything even remotely like that.

It's a long thread and I can understand why some people have only skimmed it, but there are some fairly subtle points under discussion and a lot of what people are trying to say is getting missed. If you read it carefully you will see that rescuer after rescuer has said that they don't condemn either people who buy dogs or all breeders, they have simply tried to expain their perspective or the hypothesized perspective of the people the OP originally asked about.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I am just upset Lies sorry, I will leave before I say more things I regret. 

I do not condem you or anyone for going out and researching and getting the GSD you want. OR good breeders period. 

I was insulted. Maybe not personally but I am trying to defend what I believe in. Maybe I have to draw a larger line for myself.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Thank you for that pupresq. 

That is exactly what I meant and who I am. Thank goodness someone understands me.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

And this is what happens when people set up divisiveness. Kelly and Lies are actually in agreement even though there was confusion over which post was being referenced. Lies and I are actually in agreement about why someone would buy a dog and the "okayness" of it. I think Lies and Andrea are even in agreement but they are having some confusion over terms. Every rescuer on the thread has supported Lauri's choices. I think Chris is one of the best breeders I've ever encountered and if I were to buy a dog, I'd be proud to buy one from her. 

There is so much agreement and common ground here! Calling people Nazis because you didn't read what they wrote carefully is NOT helpful to anyone, least of all the dogs.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: That is exactly what I meant and who I am. Thank goodness someone understands me.


No problem!









It's amazing how much time you have to read threads carefully when you're laid up in bed and can't move!


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> Look at Lucina's posts - ask her if she felt that I looked down on her for buying Lucy or if I was preachy about rescue when we met. I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I really don't think she'd tell you that I was and the reason that I doubt she thought I was looking down on her choice, was that I WASN'T looking down on her choice. It's the same choice that I've made myself and I think Lucy is a great dog with a great owner. That's all beside the point.


Sorry for being gone for a bit but I had to respond to this. 
At the time we met, I was considering breeding my Lucina. She is a fine example of the breed and I was willing to go through all the necessary learning, testing and training to assure she WAS indeed worthy of breeding. 
I shared this with pupresq, (you forgot this part, but that's OK) and I did not get any negativity at all. Nothing. No lecture, no speeches, no telling me why I was out to lunch for even considering it. If ever there was to be an opportunity for a holier than thou speech this was it.
But it never came. Because in my heart I know that there IS no holier than thou attitude. Just a passion that ultimately resulted in the saving of a dog named Rafe that I fell in love with and would happily have brought into my home. Actions have always spoken FAR louder than words, and in this case it has never been truer. Rafe lives because of the sacrifices of this woman. Period. She cowgirled up and made it happen. And Rafe will be a fabulous dog for some lucky family, and did not die because of her. Just the facts of the situation, unembellished and without spin...but as has been stated so often in this thread- it is what it is.
Through my experiences here, guidance and advice from a breeder I totally respect (you know who you are, Chris, but I won't mention any names







)and nobody telling me what I should or should not do but just telling me like it is and me learning-
I decided not to breed, and will spay her to assure that there are no unplanned surprises. I will leave that up to the breeders here who are and will continue to carry on all that is wonderful about the GSD. Now I know who they are, and what makes them different from mills and BYB's. Even using these people in the same sentence as BYB's is offensive to my sensibilities but the difference is clear and vast. And I know about rescue. All from being a member here. I knew none of this a year ago.
I know that buying Lucy was absolutely the right choice for me. She has taught me volumes, and the education continues. My experience with her has prepared me for the next dog in my household- which will be a rescue when the time is right.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Thanks, Chris and Lauri and whoever else posted some common sense here. I appreciate it.

For those of you over-reacting to the "nazi" comment - you are taking it completely out of context and acting like YOU were called that. You weren't, and if you are reacting to it then you're just choosing to get upset over something that wasn't aimed at you. Here's what was said:

*Lauri quoted from SharkB8's post about the people at her class: When certain people said they checked with trainers, did their research, interviewed breeders and met the parents, grand parents, etc and found a puppy. More audible groans.

Lauri responded: Sounds like the type of people often referred to as 'Rescue Nazis'. No matter WHAT you do - only a rescued dog is the right choice.*

She's talking about the people who GROANED in the class! Not you, not anyone here on this thread. Geez, people, get a grip. 

The concept of "rescue nazis" falls right into line with what I was trying to explain earlier. People are PUT OFF by the over-zealous attitude that says "rescue or you're an immoral, unethical person". 

Let's break this down just a bit farther. When I sent the article in and it was published in the paper, probably over 10,000 people read it. When I was on the radio, more than once, I expect that a few thousand more people heard me. I promoted rescue, or if you insisted on getting a dog from a breeder, to research and buy from a GOOD breeder (and I gave tips on how to find that good breeder).

So let's say 12,000 people heard/read me. Let's say 10% of those were considering getting a dog (which is probably pretty accurate up here - everyone has a dog or two or three, it seems). That's 120 people. Let's say maybe half of those took what I said to heart about rescue. That would make 60 people who chose to rescue because I made the effort to educate.

Does that make me more "moral" and "ethical" and "noble" than those of you who have just adopted one or two or three dogs? Should I be turning my nose up at you and saying "well, the ETHICAL thing to do is to save 60 dogs - I can't understand why any of you can't see that simple truth". 

It would PISS YOU OFF if I did that. And yet that's exactly the attitude that many people are putting out to someone who chose to buy instead of rescue. That's the attitude that the OP described toward her in the class she attended. Did she deserve that? NO! And yet some of you here seem to be telling her that she DID deserve that. And that's the negativity that we're talking about.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:Not you, not anyone here on this thread. Geez, people, get a grip.
> 
> The concept of "rescue nazis" falls right into line with what I was trying to explain earlier. People are PUT OFF by the over-zealous attitude that says "rescue or you're an immoral, unethical person".


Uh, Melanie - this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You gotta read carefully or you can end up with the wrong end of the stick. The people are upset about Oksana's "rescue Nazi" comment not Lauri's. It's pretty clear Oksana is talking about us. Here's her quote, it's on the previous page:



> Quote:No Lauri, you are not the only one. After reading this thread I have the feeling that the OP is trying to continue a civilized discussion with some religious or should I say rescue? fanatics. And reasoning with fanatics of any kind is impossible. After reading some posts I truly think I won't go to rescue even though I considered this just so I don't have to interact with 'rescue nazis'.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986I am just upset Lies sorry, I will leave before I say more things I regret.
> 
> I do not condem you or anyone for going out and researching and getting the GSD you want. OR good breeders period.
> 
> I was insulted. Maybe not personally but I am trying to defend what I believe in. Maybe I have to draw a larger line for myself.


And I'm not trying to push your buttons. Just wanted to point out that if you (or others reading this) honestly believe that GOOD breeders make a profit breeding dogs, this needs to be addressed because it is not true. Or if you knew that and it was just a low blow coming out of frustration (understandable) I won't simply let it slide b/c I know some breeders that put their blood, sweat and tears into their dogs just like any rescue worker (in fact, some do both!) and it is not fair to make statements like that even out of frustration. 

Like pupresq is saying, I think most people here are in agreement and the things that we seem to differ on really stem from assumptions about others not based on fact.

I understand that most of the die-hard rescuers here are OK with me purchasing a dog but what does irk me is that I constantly have to explain myself before it's "okayed". Not just here but among my peers as well. I've never challenged anyone who has rescued a dog, even though sometimes it seems like a few people are getting in way over their heads and maybe the dogs' qualities of life are suffering for it but no one ever questions it b/c it's rescue. Generally I just look away and think that person has a lot more experience than me, they can handle 2-3 times as many dogs as me and that's that. But the *I* am somehow acting ignorantly or amorally because I've purchased a dog, _unless_ I'm able to explain myself repeatedly....


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I think most people here are in agreement and the things that we seem to differ on really stem from assumptions about others not based on fact.












Not to keep talking for Kelly but I think she's saying it more like "if you are going to start splitting hairs..." No, reputable breeders are not making a profit and reputable rescuers are making even less of one.



> Quote:does irk me is that I constantly have to explain myself before it's "okayed". Not just here but among my peers as well.


Has that happened to you here? I apologize if I've missed it. I've seen lots of threads about your adorable pupper but nothing negative and I used Nikon as an example of a bought puppy and owner that seem to get a lot of support.



> Quote:I've never challenged anyone who has rescued a dog, even though sometimes it seems like a few people are getting in way over their heads and maybe the dogs' qualities of life are suffering for it but no one ever questions it b/c it's rescue.


Really? I have! A lot of the rescue people have - we get slammed for that too of course... Can't win for trying I guess


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

One thing that has come to my mind is the notion that a dog cannot bond unless you get it as a puppy. Honestly I think (at least maybe where I live where rescuing IS very popular) if we ALL can tackle that issue, more dogs would be rescued. This is something that is true of ANY dog, purebred from a breeder or mix from a rescue. You do NOT need to get a puppy to have a lifelong bond with your dog! I cannot tell you how many times I have heard or read "but we want a puppy so we can have that bond...." I did a home visit for a rescue and this is what the family told me, THAT was the reason why they wanted a puppy (granted, they were looking for a pup in _rescue_, but still). They were amazed that my first two dogs were both adopted as adults and personally I'd be happy to never own a puppy. Unfortunately I really think this myth is why a lot of people go to a breeder or a pet store - they want a puppy, period.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I totally agree. Maybe we should start a thread of biggest rescue myths - the debunking of which might result in more adoptions? I do think most people's minds can be changed though occasionally it can be uphill work.









ETA: Rescue myths thread


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The bond with a rescue is so special because alot of them have known hardship and look at their new life with such glee that they have been re-born. I have a rescue(adopted at 1yr.8 mos) and one that was a pup from a breeder. The one from the breeder acts almost spoiled, she doesn't know how good she has it, never satisfied. The rescue is happy with everything and is eager to please always. This is just my experience, and I am sure not what everyone experiences, but I see this every day and find it interesting. My next pup will probably be from a breeder, as I want a blk sable boy and if I find one in a shelter, that would be great, but I think a breeder is where I will find my next family member. I will stay involved in volunteering to the local spca, and help with it whenever I can...I remember one signature that sticks in my mind and I agree with it (from a member here), sorry can't remember the username but it is
"IF you breed, rescue. If you rescue, don't breed the rescues.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq Uh, Melanie - this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You gotta read carefully or you can end up with the wrong end of the stick. The people are upset about Oksana's "rescue Nazi" comment not Lauri's. It's pretty clear Oksana is talking about us. Here's her quote, it's on the previous page:
> 
> 
> 
> > Quote:No Lauri, you are not the only one. After reading this thread I have the feeling that the OP is trying to continue a civilized discussion with some religious or should I say rescue? fanatics. And reasoning with fanatics of any kind is impossible. After reading some posts I truly think I won't go to rescue even though I considered this just so I don't have to interact with 'rescue nazis'.


Yes, I missed that - but the original "rescue nazi" comment that Oksana is quoting was from Lauri's post. 

And Oksana's post shows exactly what I have been trying to tell you guys. Her reaction is what is being brought out by the rescue people who are using terms like "moral", "ethical", "noble". Maybe you'd be surprised at how many people feel offended when insinuations of immorality are made just because they didn't adopt an animal. 

To all the "rescuers" who are so adamant about ethics: I'm still wondering if I'm more noble than someone who just adopted one or two dogs ... is there a spreadsheet of levels of "nobleness" based on how many dogs you save? Should I put it in my signature: "X number of dogs rescued through my efforts" so that everyone can see how good I am?

Do you all see how ridiculous this is? Encouraging rescue is good. Trying to make people feel bad or inferior because they didn't rescue only works against you.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

The problem is that what you're offended about is based on a misunderstanding of what was said. If you read through that long post I did where I tried to clarify the quotes it might help.

As far as Oksana's post, I've read her comments about rescue dogs before. She has had some extremely derogatory and offensive things to say about the dogs themselves, having nothing to do with her distaste for rescuers, so I'm not taking her assertion that she would have adopted until she was turned off by the "fanatics" on this thread too seriously. 

We are doing all the things you say we should be doing - engaging people diplomatically, promoting education, writing articles, not being judgemental when we talk to people.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986Yes Chris, what pupresq was saying.
> 
> I was referring to what Lies said about people not taking the time to find a good breeder.
> 
> ...


Sorry Daisy. Since your post responding to Lies by name came right after the one where she was talking about people going with breeders because they want specific things, I thought that was the one you were responding to. I didn't realize you were responding to her earlier post. Now knowing which one you were responding to your post make a lot more sense to me and is more in line with the tone of your others. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest
> Her reaction is what is being brought out by the rescue people who are using terms like "moral", "ethical", "noble". Maybe you'd be surprised at how many people feel offended when insinuations of immorality are made just because they didn't adopt an animal.


I think this is what some aren't understanding.

No one here is coming out and saying breeders or people who buy from breeders are immoral, unethical, ignoble, etc... But, that is the implication, intended or not, when folks constantly reference rescuing as being those things.

When there are 2 choices, rescue vs breeder, and 1 of those is repeatedly called moral, ethical, noble, the right thing to do... it naturally follows that people will associate the opposite choice with the opposite of those things. Whether that implication is intentional or not, it is there every time. That is the insinuation that many people key in on and find offensive because it really does come across as a holier than thou attitude and backhanded vilification. Perhaps because (in most cases anyway) it's not intended to be offensive, people aren't aware of how it is perceived as insulting finger pointing by the other side. But it certainly doesn't help with furthering the "let's all get along" common ground attitude.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree with you. Problem is that when the same people have said that that isn't the way they meant it, that they themselves have bought dogs, that they don't condemn ethical breeders, then I'm not sure what else they can say.









And the origin of the "ethical" and "moral" terminology was where it was employed to try to answer the OP's question about why the people in her class took issue. The intention was to describe one of many factors involved in the decision about where to obtain a dog, not the people who make those decisions themselves. 

I've been trying to come up with a less loaded word to describe the concept but they all seem to have those same connotations. The best I could do was "virtuous" choice but I can't see that it's any better.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Thank you Chris, that means a lot. I really respect you and your opinon. 

I feel much better took a long hot bath. Whew, I have been on here since Jul and have never been that upset. I was worried I offend Chris, misunderstanding, ...glad that it cleared up. 

And yes it was Oksana's comment that upset me. I know it was not directed at ME. But my way of thinking. 

Also Melanie, I have no idea who you are talking about, but I have never claimed the things you say, so I guess you are not talking about me. But I really do not understand your posts. 

And Leis, thank you SO much for setting me straight on good breeders and profits. Really? I did not know.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> > Quote: That is exactly what I meant and who I am. Thank goodness someone understands me.
> ...


And this just dawning on me, cuz I was SO upset earlier.









Why are you laid up in bed and cannot move??









I hope it is nothing to serious and you are better soon.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Hannah fell down, went boom!









Monday morning I went to let a dog in from the backyard, my feet flew out from under me (muddy steps from doggy paws plus old Crocs do not good traction make) and I landed at the bottom of the steps on concrete and slammed my back into the riser. I messed myself up pretty badly but nothing permanent or even that serious in the grand scheme of things. But man, I've been in bed since I got home from the ER Monday evening and I am so stir crazy I can't even tell you! Not to mention my increasingly frazzled DH who has been a superhero of wife care while also dealing with our son and all the dogs. I'm ready to be done with this!

Thanks for the well-wishes!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am very surprised that name-calling, and calling people who dare to care about the animals other throw away "rescue nazis" and "fanatics" is allowed on this board. It is derogatory and extremely offensive. If someone called trainers with strong opinions about their methods "trainer nazis" and "fanatics" with holier than thou attitudes or breeders "breeder nazis" they would have long been banned from this board. Rescue bashing, here we go again, is apparently OK.


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

My first GSDX was a shelter dog. I'll be honest, I *DID NOT* want this dog. My husband did. After the two of them played together, I did the "noble" thing and okayed the adoption. I was worried because I had 2 small dogs at home. I was under the same misconceptions that alot of people had, this dog had to be "damaged" in some way to be at the shelter. Well, after our first vet visit, we found out how appropriate his name was.  Some SOB had used this poor pups' back legs as an ashtray. My vet found the burn marks. Although Smoke did have some issues, we worked through them. He became my best friend, looked after me through my two pregnancies, "fetched" me after the babies were born and were crying, and took great care of all of us. It was a terrible blow when he passed in Feb after being a huge part of our life for 10 years.

After much discussion about if we were ready for a new family member, I approached rescues, but was told that they wouldn't adopt to me because my kids were too young. (7 and 5 yrs.) and my yard isn't fully fenced. I saw an ad on the internet for GSD pups, and 4 days later we brought Shadow home. Was he purchased from a REPUTABLE breeder, no, but I wouldn't trade him for the world, and refuse to be made to feel guilty because of how he was bred. At least with me, I know that he will not be responsible for bringing any more pups into the world, and who's to say if I hadn't bought him that he wouldn't have ended up being a shelter dog.

I don't think that shelter dog v breeder dog should influence people's perceptions, but how you treat that dog once you have it that matters. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> As far as Oksana's post, I've read her comments about rescue dogs before. She has had some extremely derogatory and offensive things to say about the dogs themselves, having nothing to do with her distaste for rescuers, so I'm not taking her assertion that she would have adopted until she was turned off by the "fanatics" on this thread too seriously.


Please find and quote my derogatory and offensive comments about dogs and rescuers I posted before. I do stand behind every word I say and post and I can explain my views to those who listen but I don't reason with preachers, sorry. 

I did post my opinion on mandatory spay and nuetering and I did say that my choice is to get dogs from breeders because I don't want somebody else's mess. Correct? Yes it was blant but it was my view and since then I started looking at things things a bit differently. Surprised? Never happens to you, right? Don't be because I am not a fanatic and I'm not dead so my points of views can change. But not yours since you are very nicely allow yourself generalize about me and allow yourself not to take my words seriously. Why should I then treat your 'noble' and 'ethical' and 'moral' intentions seriously? Please think about this before posting another insulting post. Melanie understood what I meant to say but some minds can only look thru their own distorted prizm. 

PS I probably should surrender my injured dog to rescue and then rescue another one instead. Then I'll be proclaimed a life saveor and praised and I'll be so moral and better then all those suckers who buy from breeders. Right?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Gosh! After reading your post above and of course the one where you related people like me to those that slaughtered thousands of innocent people, it's simply amazing that I would not take you too seriously!









If you are serious about saving a dog's life, nothing that gets said on this forum or anywhere else is going to stop you from doing that. You've been around long enough to know what shelters are and how to adopt from one. I do not think that you are serious about it, but feel free to prove me wrong. I'll be happy, as I always am, if another dog is saved from death. Not holding my breath though. 



> Quote:I probably should surrender my injured dog to rescue and then rescue another one instead. Then I'll be proclaimed a life saveor and praised and I'll be so moral and better then all those suckers who buy from breeders. Right?


Yes! Owners abandoning innocent animals - that is EXACTLY what rescuers want people to do. Wow! You have obviously read this thread and others very carefully.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I haven't expected anything else from you, pupresq. I wish I'd been disappointed but you are just so predictable. I'm glad I made you laugh. 

I hope my dogs will stay for a long time with me and then I will do what I feel I need to do without your approval or permission. Please note that I don't generalize, I actually mean you and not rescue people. And also please learn about not taking everything literally and google the word 'metaphor'.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Call someone a "Nazi" and they get annoyed and not especially inclined to value the rest of what you're saying. Those are some amazing powers of prediction! 

Oksana - I'm not offering your my approval or permission. What on earth does that have to do with anything? You posted on a public forum that you were planning to adopt your next dog but that now you're not going to because you don't want to deal with fanatics and rescue Nazis. Was that something we weren't meant to take literally or are you now backpedalling? 









Seems to me if you really wanted to save a dog, you'd do it. If you don't, well, okay, but why post that you did?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Metaphor, pupresq, metaphor... I haven't used it first but the 'nazi' term just fits so well. Like 'soup nazi' from Seinfeld. Do you watch Seinfeld or he's banned as well because he insulted the food industry?

I am saving a dog right now. Dog from the breeder who is sick. She had a surgery and she may require another one. It doesn't count of course because she's a dog from the breeder by your lines. I may put her down and go to a shelter for another dog or I may fight for bringing her back to health and wait 10 more years before thinking of getting another dog. Please don't make everything so two dimentional, it's just doesn't really appeal to intelligent people.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Oh, and btw, I'm pretty good with the 'ol English. But since you don't value my opinion, perhaps you'll feel more comfortable with Merriam-Webster:

Metaphor: a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money) ; broadly : figurative language 

There is no metaphor in your recent post. Did you mean the metaphor in the earlier post relating people like me to a Nazi? Because I'm pretty aware you don't actually think I'm an extremely geriatric fascist German, so yeah, I knew that was a metaphor. And know what? JUST as insulting! 

I think from your more recent post the word you were actually looking for was looking for was "sarcasm". Here are some examples to clarify the difference:

Metaphor: "Some of the people posting on this thread about rescuers are blind"

Sarcasm: "I'm so sure Oksana didn't know I was being sarcastic back."

Hope that helps!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Oh, I see we posted at the same time and you really DID mean Nazi. Wow! So you thought that wouldn't offend anyone? Seriously? <-- sarcasm.

And no, treating your own injured dog is different from adopting a pet. Both are good things to do, but they're apples and oranges <--- metaphor. 



> Quotelease don't make everything so two dimentional


Did you read your _own_ post? I asked a simple question. Here, I'll ask it again:


> Quote:You posted on a public forum that you were planning to adopt your next dog but that now you're not going to because you don't want to deal with fanatics and rescue Nazis. Was that something we weren't meant to take literally or are you now backpedalling?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

pupresq, I wasn't sarcastic and I know you were (refer to webster to see what I mean







)

It's very sad that you think that saving one's own dog is different than saving a dog from a shelter. So much for saving dogs lives... I was wrong, we are talking about one dimention here, not two.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quoteupresq, I wasn't sarcastic





> Quote:I probably should surrender my injured dog to rescue and then rescue another one instead. Then I'll be proclaimed a life saveor and praised and I'll be so moral and better then all those suckers who buy from breeders. Right?


THIS? This isn't sarcastic? Seriously??? Because if you're serious then the extent to which you do not understand me or rescue or the rest of this thread is really quite staggering. 



> Quote:It's very sad that you think that saving one's own dog is different than saving a dog from a shelter.


Really? That's sad you say? Um, I'd hazard a guess that MOST people think saving their own dog's life is a totally different thing from adopting a dog from the shelter. I would sell my house to save Grace if she needed me to. I wouldn't do that for a dog at the shelter, but I do regularly rescue dogs from the shelter. I'm not saying one of those things is better than the other, I'm not even comparing them. I'm saying treating your own pet's medical condition is something completely separate from the decision to adopt a dog. One has nothing to do with the other. Any clearer now or do you still not understand?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqI'll ask it again:
> 
> 
> > Quote:You posted on a public forum that you were planning to adopt your next dog but that now you're not going to because you don't want to deal with fanatics and rescue Nazis. Was that something we weren't meant to take literally or are you now backpedalling?


Here's my original post you are refering to:
-------
No Lauri, you are not the only one. After reading this thread I have the feeling that the OP is trying to continue a civilized discussion with some religious or should I say rescue? fanatics. And reasoning with fanatics of any kind is impossible. After reading some posts I truly think I won't go to rescue even though I considered this just so I don't have to interact with 'rescue nazis'. 
---------
I am not backpadalling and just the opposite, I'm reassured by your posts that reasoning with fanatics of any kind is impossible. Good night, pupresq, I need to take my dogs out and give them some attention that was taken away from them by participating in this thread.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

First, we had all better try to take it down a notch here. 

But there is a difference in saving a dog you already own and are already responsible for, and taking responsibilty for a new animal. Or you can do both.

Like if your dog got attacked by another dog and you decided to leave it by the roadside and go get another dog from a shelter. Where should your responsibility be-obviously with your first dog. 

I don't even know how this semi-circle got started, but yeah, we are responsible for what we already own, however we got to own it.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Exactly!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANI don't even know how this semi-circle got started, but yeah, we are responsible for what we already own, however we got to own it.


Jean, it was started by stating that if I wanted to save a dog I would save one but pupresq wouldn't hold her breath. Like being a rescue person gives someone a permit for insulting others and using any means to hit the sensitive spot. I do see a difference but I've also seen dogs putting down for treatable health reasons and then going to a shelter for a new one. Very noble.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

By "save" I was referring to "adopt" which was what you were talking about in your first Nazi post. It had nothing to do with what you are or aren't willing to do to help a dog you already own and are responsible for. 

Based on your previous comments about rescue dogs - for example the one you referenced about not wanting someone else's mess, I said I doubted whether or not you were really planning to adopt, but glad to be wrong if you were. 



> Quote: Like being a rescue person gives someone a permit for insulting others


Can you show me specifically where anyone insulted you prior to your calling people on this thread fanatics and Nazis?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

_I am going to have to ask that we put this to bed for now because there's nothing else I have the "power" to do._

I do want to say that we do screen for those put the dog down when it gets inconvenient, get a new one types-that is one we do see in rescue, sadly. 

And some of what you see in terms of reaction is that rescue people, in dealing with the public, do get "bullied" by people who want what they want when they want it and don't understand the process of rescue. You would not believe some of the threats and things we've had to deal with. I am not in active rescue anymore and appreciate those who can stick with it. 

On the flip side, we sit at home checks with people who are bawling their eyes out over their dog who passed after they carried them to the potty for weeks on end, people who really make it so worthwhile, and who tell us if you had wanted a DNA sample it would have been worth it to get this piece of my heart back. 

So, it's nice. 

Good night!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Jean, I agree. I am appauled by pupresq's reaction and taking my words out of context but I will write it down to her burning out by rescue every day encounters. She saves dogs, she tries her best so I let it go. Good night.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I do want to say that we do screen for those put the dog down when it gets inconvenient, get a new one types-that is one we do see in rescue, sadly.


Totally agree! If they didn't take care of the last dog, then there's no reason to think they're going to take care of this one, and if that's the case, I've no interest in placing a dog with them. But then you do get those people who are such the opposite, who do everything for their current and past pets, and you know your foster is going somewhere special.









Have a good night! 

ETA:


> Quote:I am appauled by pupresq's reaction and taking my words out of context but I will write it down to her burning out by rescue every day encounters.


For goodness sakes! That is incredibly offensive and insulting. Jean - I get what you're trying to do here and I'm trying to respect it, but this is getting absolutely ridiculous. In the last couple pages I've been compared to a Nazi, told that I would prefer she euthanized her dog and got a new one, to name just a few things, and now had everything I've tried to say written off in unbelievably patronizing fashion because apparently I'm a burn out. This is not okay.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

No, it's not ok.

Wow, I've avoided coming into this thread at all. Now I see why. I've seen people I completely respect be called ugly names for reasons I don't completely understand. 

I think there is a lot of hyperbole in this thread, or some people are hanging out in entirely the wrong places. I have breeder dogs and mixed breed shelter dogs. I have never once seen any evidence that my dogs were treated differently on the basis of where they are from or what their lines are. My mixed breed is (and my other mixed breeds were, before they died) a great looking dog, with bright eyes, a phenomenal smile and incredibly well trained. She gets compliments; people admire her, pet her and compliment Dh and me. The same with my purebred dogs from breeders. 

I attend probably the two of most expensive (and the one hardest to get into) training schools in this area. My dogs have always been treated the same by the trainers. My mixed breed has been used as the demo dog quite often. The trainers adore her because she's friendly and easy-going. In her last class, all of the students except one were purebreds. All I noticed were a lot of owners asking me how I keep manage to keep my dog so well trained. 

This isn't just a phenomena of where I live here. It was like this when I lived in San Diego, Los Angeles and the Bay Area -- some places that are pretty notorious for being perhaps a bit superficial. People were attracted to my dogs. If someone felt they were too good for my dog, I never noticed it. We always had plenty of people to talk to and other dogs to play with. Frankly, the only time I've ever noticed my dog being treated differently is my purebred GSD: owners of small dogs lift and carry them when we walk by. Whatever.

One of the reasons I went with a known breeder (recommended by a friend) for my GSD is because I had spent a lot of money on surgery for Zamboni. I wanted health clearances for my GSD's hips and elbows. Oh, I got those, and his joints are beautiful. But anyone who knows us knows that we've dropped thousands and thousands of dollars into Camper for GI and allergy issues. His sire and dam don't have these. I keep in touch with the breeder, and she's been supportive throughout, and she's stumped by the problems I've had. A pricy breeder dog doesn't guarantee a healthy dog. 

A shelter dog isn't guaranteed to have health issues either. Like every living thing, it's luck of the draw. I went to a breeder for my current pup because I wanted a specific breed, a female, with health clearances, with certain temperament (to fit into my existing pack with a senior who is set in her ways), and certain traits for my plans for her future. I also picked the breed and temperament dog I did with an eye of being able to bring additional adult -- rescue -- dogs into my pack in the future. I'm always looking forward, with an eye toward building my pack. 

We had tried to find a suitable rescue before I started talking to breeders over a year ago, but I couldn't. I believe that I have to respect the dogs that are here, and work the new kids into my existing pack. Once a dog walks through the front door, s/he's here forever. 

I am committed to adoption and rescue. I support our humane society as much as we possibly can. Most of my dogs have been shelter animals (not even rescues); I've worked as a shelter volunteer. Until you've hung out at animal shelters for a while you have no right to say a negative thing to the people who do rescue. You just don't. 

We owe them our thanks. It might be your dog, or your mother's or your friend's that is lost during an earthquake or hurricane, stolen from your property, or brought to a shelter when you're in a car accident. If the shelter doesn't process your dog correctly, that rescue may be your dog's best hope of ever finding another loving home. 

It happens to even the best owners among us. You may think you can control absolutely everything in life, but you can't. 

Take a walk through the county animal shelters in your communities for several weeks in a row. Then come back and give us your opinion.


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## khurley (Sep 25, 2004)

Well, I've tried very hard to avoid locking this, but it seems like every time I think it's back on track, I check back in and it's started going downhill again.

That said, I think it's time to go ahead and lock it up.


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