# whoopsie



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

28 days old, first time on the pallet



























be gentle, be patient, ALWAYS 100% positive. Let them learn at their own pace.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)




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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

right about here the whole thing devolved into a melee...


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)




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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

think biosensor. Don't overstress, don't over stimulate. At this age they're only going to go for 10 or 15 minutes at a time. I have to get some collars. I can't tell who's who.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Fun times. Looks like nice weather for puppies to explore


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Some assert this kind of thing “artificially conditions” a litter to appear better than it really is, but experts agree “you can’t get out what wasn’t there to begin with.” I don’t really know the answer? All I know is, I’ve done it both ways, and the difference is night and day. Like pruning young trees at transplant, a little stress stimulates growth, and you try to shape them a little bit. So I guess yes, it is artificial in that sense. They’re going to grow, regardless; so one attempts to direct that growth.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

uncle berno went to the dollar store!


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

cute pics of the pups exploring, the new toys looks to be a big hit! Are these your pups?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

So, from the first batch of pictures, it looks like you're going to let them learn to open up their own bag of dog food! 🤣

Hmmm...not to sure 'self' serve' is such a great idea! 😁 

Look to be about 4 weeks old, right?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Great way to let puppies explore and gain confidence! You're gonna have some confident mutpups on your hands...shouldn't be hard to find homes for them when the time comes!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Thanks! It’s been a few years since I reared a whole litter and one thing that really strikes me with these is just how readily they seem to learn from each other. They’re just mutts so I can’t imagine they’re “unique” in any respect. I think I just failed to see it with younger eyes. LOL I’ve definitely softened with age in terms of intervention. @ wean one of them seemed to be a whiny little house hider, but I’m not even sure which one it was now?

The bag fotos above were taken @ wean. You can actually see a few little flakes of dried milk on some of the muzzles up there. So I rattled that first kibble bag around a little and left it lay for a few minutes just to see what they’d do to it. This more or less set a precedent. They know when chowtime is approaching and they get pretty active, so I make it a point to fool with them “low impact” then. I won’t have them much longer so if anybody has any suggestions, be it tried and true or totally off the wall/wild blue yonder, this is a good little control group to experiment on and now is the time.

First mousetrap, good tunnel action. Wind from the west so they knew kibble was there, but no ramp on that side.
































































several very noble attempts were made but they just couldn't do it.



















maybe they just weren't hungry enough? Boards too short/steep/slick anyway, so I finally put them all up there for “the win” and aborted the exercise.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

so tonight I reverted back to the pallets, and most of these little chumps are just robbing me blind



















when von bernodoodle's _great westminster holdup_ "whoopsie" finally decided to make her move!!!









































































this is her from the toy run. Good ball drive, good grip, good prey (monkey drive), good nose, good food drive, good agility, I think we may have a winner.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Still no color coded collars? Did the litter's dam have erect ears? The puppies ears look like they will.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Don't ya hate having to pop this stuff? I can't imagine I just invented this, and it's certainly no substitute for live fire exercises; but in certain circles I am known as "the 22kid" and having just tried it myself just now I'm here to tell any real breeder who doesn't have a real target range onsite, this is well worth doing. Look for the ones that react positively.

I'll edit/narrate a little because what I see in real time may not be so obvious in fotos









first on the toy








first on the dropped box

















first to investigate the plastic wrap








first to bite/step on the plastic wrap








first to grab my flying monkey 









first up the pallets










she was first on day 28, and she's first again on day 49










I've been watching closely, day in and day out, this one is nearly always first

alright, back to the pallets










so they learned from each other and we we jacked the pallets up today



















but I have to say some seem to be way more monkey driven than food driven


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

question for serious trainers, when selecting a candidate how much emphasis do you place on food drive? Do you rank food drive above prey drive?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

berno von der seeweise said:


> question for serious trainers, when selecting a candidate how much emphasis do you place on food drive? Do you rank food drive above prey drive?


what are you training for?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> question for serious trainers, when selecting a candidate how much emphasis do you place on food drive? Do you rank food drive above prey drive?


Personally, I like food drive to teach puppies positions through luring. I transition to tug/toys asap. All dogs want to eat. Not all dogs want toys. 

Fodder asked the primary question. I would phrase it differently though. What do you need for your training style?

The ATF trains a lot of detection dogs using only food.

Military dogs and police use mostly balls/kongs for detection and compulsion for OB. 

The Dutch train a lot of police dogs using mostly compulsion.

Most agility/flyball dogs use only toys.

Most retrievers are trained with only praise.

What drives do you need to train your dog(s)?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Low food drive is a function of how long said puppy has gone without food. I'm not too serious about anything, but I have not seen a puppy or dog with low food drive.

Low prey drive = more challenging to motivate, so more challenging to train.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I really only understand prey and have always relied on toy/tug as a foundation. But a real old timer challenged me to coax a live find SAR dog out of my personal trainwreck "someday," so I'm trying to begin evaluating food and hunt drives. Granted live find SAR is a mighty lofty goal, but everybody always talks about "balance." Realistically speaking, I'll settle for more well rounded than my own foundation sire. "Someday." 

thanks to all for the responses


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I really only understand prey and have always relied on toy/tug as a foundation. But a real old timer challenged me to coax a live find SAR dog out of my personal trainwreck "someday," so I'm trying to begin evaluating food and hunt drives. Granted live find SAR is a mighty lofty goal, but everybody always talks about "balance." Realistically speaking, I'll settle for more well rounded than my own foundation sire. "Someday."
> 
> thanks to all for the responses


If SAR is your goal, hunt drive is paramount. I think you have environmental stability covered  There is a thread running concerning hunt drive that may interest you.

If I were to raise a litter with nose stuff as a goal, I would start having them search for food immediately if not sooner. I would scatter food in grass, under stuff, over stuff, through stuff... You get the idea.

As they get older, searching for toys/food/people in larger areas without handler intervention, encouraging self discovery of how odor works, will help in later training.

Environmental socialization must include boats, aircraft, every structure and terrain imaginable, sirens, lots of rubble and water, livestock, game trails, cats... All the really fun stuff.

It is also a huge time commitment. I just turned down a lucrative SAR training contact because I don't have 30 hours a week to train another dog.

All that being said, it's super cool, very challenging, and a worthwhile effort given the opportunity, the time, and the right dog.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

field trip!









so I arranged an artificial structure, baited it with a scattered handful of kibble, and pointed them into the wind









difficult to photograph, but the sound of the frontrunners crunching spurred the couchpotatoes on









wow! I did not expect this to be so profound. They really penetrated that brush. I should have done this earlier.





































when the crunching finally stopped the alfa's took a nap and the runt started panhandling









return to basecamp

absolutely no question this was beneficial stimuli. They had a ball. I'd say "picnics" such as this should begin appx week 5. I can only imagine where they'd be today had I started this 2 weeks ago.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I mean they're just mutts, and I only want them to be the best mutts they can be


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

quick personal prey vs food drive anecdote. So I'm getting in a little monkey action here just before lunch










but when I get over to the trampoline the runt was like "you know boss, it's Friday, it's almost lunchtime, and we've had a long week. I think maybe we better just rest up over the weekend and save the trampoline for Monday."










I said "Now that's an outstanding idea, Runt! You guys have a little snack on me. My treat! You've earned it."


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

53 days old


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

The last thing I want to do misrepresent. They're just halfbreeds. Nothing special. Let's just call this thread a study in "the nurture factor." Drives are definitely building by the day. No question. So now I've put a good foundation on them and it's up to john and/or jane doe to follow through and bring them along. Or not.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Cute and healthy lookin critters, whatever they are!! And, just for the record, I prefer the term supermutts!


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

They are cute! Fun to see the journey! Are you keeping one?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Thanks! Yes I intend to keep one. This whole thing has actually been about me trying to identify the keeper. I'm currently torn between 2 of them. We'll see what I get out of them today?


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)




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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

The picture you posted of the pup carrying the ball in their mouth reminded me of my clipper! He loved chasing/catching toys! Cody his brother, loved to play catch too, but when he was done, he was done! Clipper would play as long as you'd play, then carry the ball/toy hoping you'd carry on!!! That's what above pic was!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

very nice!

there's apparently some debate about predatory motor pattern/predatory motor sequence "grab bite" vs "kill bite" as it relates to herding breeds, but I contend scott and fuller simply didn't know what a catch dog is.









Catch dog - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Schutzhund was invented for the sake of gsd breeding selection, so I contend the breed has evolved beyond either or, to a "full, calm, catchdog type" grip.









Schutzhund - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

granted there's always a compromise, but serviceable drives and "good with kids" don't have to be mutually exclusive


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)




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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

No compromise necessary IMO


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> No compromise necessary IMO


 well I've done this before, but I always just inbred the best biters; and ultimately I found _there is _a compromise to be made. At least there is for me, here on my site. That's what started the whole "live find" challenge in the first place. I'm told nowdays many SAR teams won't deploy until after the victims are presumed deceased because too many have been nibbled. I have no use for a dog I can't trust unsupervised around livestock, so I'm already shooting for moderate "bite drives" (or whatever) anyway. 

while we're on the subject, I'm only just beginning to scratch the surface, but I'm curious what anyone thinks about the SARDUS standards SARDUS Standards | Search and Rescue Dogs of the United States

is there a bigger better org with bigger better standards?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Hineni7 who has been heavily involved in SAR for years is your best source for factual information.She has quite a few threads here now about certification and actual rescues.I don't believe her team prefers to find people after they're beyond help.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I have it on good authority the vast majority cert HRD nowdays, but that’s really beside my point.

With the language barrier I won’t be able to explain this very well, but I’ll do my best. There’s purportedly like a whole wing or segment of the genome all but “lost” or at least overlooked now, whose lineage descends from the “proto herding type” identified in the italian dna study.

From there it all flows through the alps and the natives who inhabited the higest altitudes year round. Outsiders, seasonal residents, regarded them as like “hermits” or “outcasts.” Probably not quite the right words, but something along those lines. They were mysterious and mistrusted. Spooky folk.

So avalanches were all too common and over many generations, herding dogs with an innate ability to locate live animals and people buried deep beneath the snow were developed, or perhaps more correctly emerged, from that alpine culture/ecosystem. Either way, those were the parentstocks of the legendary WWI red cross ambulance dogs, and that all hinged entirely upon on genetic obedience.

That’s what I’m personally really after here, and I’m happy to have my culls evaluated along the way, because what a life of high adventure! What better gig could any good pup ever hope to find? My goal here is most certainly not to place dogs in suburban crates.

But even more to the point, 7 out of 8 slots in my foundation sire’s ped go back to utz, and he was a notoriously handler aggressive monorchid. How difficult can it be to improve upon that? I can't possibly miss; but again I digress, because this isn't even about little 'ol me and my mutts.

my point, all along, in a word, is biotechnology


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

"I'm told nowdays many SAR teams won't deploy until after the victims are presumed deceased because too many have been nibbled."
Who is your "good authority" you speak of?
These types of statements are terribly upsetting for anyone who has experienced family members lost and found.Alzheimer patients, hikers,children.I'm having a hard time believing "the vast majority of SAR teams" are so callous.
Just last week here a man was rescued by deploying a dog to trail him and a drone to help spot him.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I apologize if my comments were insensitive. May I please edit them?

I don’t think there’s any question some dogs are plainly too aggressive for live find SAR, but let’s see if mr INTJ can’t be a little more articulate here? The 2 standouts are the yellow and the red (sleeping on the trampoline above). The yellow seems (?) slightly biteyer. The red MAY (?) be slightly less prey driven, but I’m observing some interesting phenomena here.

Normally “good ones” chase snap bite at the rake when I clean the pen, but red collar is now trying to help me push it with her front paws. I’ve never seen anything like it. There’s other stuff too, but the rake thing is most striking.

So do I need a pup to help me push the rake? No, but I don’t necessarily need a pup to attack the rake either. It’s certainly a good indication of a potential bite training candidate, but ultimately rake biting isn’t part of the gig here. Next question: do I need a pup that just naturally wants to help me do whatever task it’s able to understand I’m trying to accomplish at the moment? AKA “genetic obedience.” BIG question…

I could just keep both back, no big deal at all; but doing so would only temporarily sweep this ultimate impending reality under the rug. Sooner or later I’ll be forced to compromise one goal for the sake of the other, so why put it off? BIG choice…

I have to say, if I’m out to simply inbreed the best biters again, yellow holds a slight edge.

Full moon. Good time to reflect. Bad time to make crazy decisions.

Anybody got any input?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

the genetic obedience thing is supposedly a huge deal because linebreeding it unlocks like a whole "archipelago" of traits that aren't able to be effectively evaluated in the trials. I catch little glimpses of genetic obedience in my foundation sire but frankly he's got more drive than sense and exhibits a level of suspicion which comes at the expense of utility on this site. I don't mean that as a criticism. I assume he is precisely what he was intended to be. I'm only trying to coax a little "local adaptation" out of his ped.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

here she is, just did it again right now










technique seems to be improving... I can actually feel her contribution now... I haven't praised because I really don't want train her to be in the way of my rake now, and correct her for it later when I'm doing other rake jobs... so I'm just observing and trying to decide what to make of it? She started off biting but soon transitioned to pushing/assisting. 

She's bitey enough to bite train, only slightly less bitey than her sister...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> the genetic obedience thing is supposedly a huge deal because linebreeding it unlocks like a whole "archipelago" of traits that aren't able to be effectively evaluated in the trials. I catch little glimpses of genetic obedience in my foundation sire but frankly he's got more drive than sense and exhibits a level of suspicion which comes at the expense of utility on this site. I don't mean that as a criticism. I assume he is precisely what he was intended to be. I'm only trying to coax a little "local adaptation" out of his ped.


Genetic obedience is such a huge deal because it makes working with the dog much more of a partnership IMO. When the dog inherently wants to work with you, there is far less need for training, compulsion and proofing.

I feel you are inferring that there are other traits that you fail to explain that are somehow genetically bundled with this trait. I would like to hear what you think these traits are and what experience you have with dogs that express genetic obedience and those traits.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> View attachment 572795
> 
> 
> here she is, just did it again right now
> ...


Genetic obedience is a bit of a mystery to me. I’d love to hear what you know about it too.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> Genetic obedience is a bit of a mystery to me. I’d love to hear what you know about it too.


Genetic obedience is about 50% of the reason I wanted a Carmspack dog. Valor is much like training a field lab with attitude. He's all about pleasing daddy. It's really quite refreshing


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Genetic obedience is about 50% of the reason I wanted a Carmspack dog. Valor is much like training a field lab with attitude. He's all about pleasing daddy. It's really quite refreshing


It’s one of thing I’ve seen Carmen talk about but I never fully understood what she was saying.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I feel you are inferring that there are other traits that you fail to explain that are somehow genetically bundled with this trait.


That's what I was told. Specifically that I should at least attempt to select and linebreed whatever genetic obedience I'm able to observe on this site; and also yes, "genetically associated" with various other traits, as of yet unbeknownst to me. This is all for the most part a mystery? I was told to watch for this kind of thing, but that's really the extent of my knowledge about it.

In my mind "genetic obedience" has always been "the pup that just naturally/instinctively wants to" and/or "just naturally/instinctively responds to universal basic verbal commands/physical gestures." I've never even seen a rake pusher before, and like I say until now I've always just kept back/inbred "the best biters" (individuals exhibiting the highest observable prey drives.) Simply inbreed too far, then take one step back. It's a foolproof system 

Everybody who knows me knows that's exactly what I'm going to do anyway no matter what, but when they gave me little igor I promised an old timer I would be on the lookout and select this sort of thing_ in addition to _what I regard as serviceable preydrives.

I've managed multiple closed herds/multiple species long enough to know, for sure, that ultimately there's always some compromise. So knowing that much ahead of time, if in this case "improvement" = "genetic obedience" as I was told, maybe I should compromise a small fraction of preydrive right now and recoup it down the line? Prey is easy enough. I can always score some more if need be.

I'm really waffling here because I don't have the option to repeat this mating.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> It’s one of thing I’ve seen Carmen talk about but I never fully understood what she was saying.


I'll write a post about it some day. She says, "just wait until he gets older," so I haven't really delved into it much yet.

Valor is the easiest GSD to train I have ever encountered. He is a very interesting combination of handler sensitive, pattern cognizant and willful. He wants to do the right thing, and he wants to figure out what that is, but he's also super confident and has a lot of middle finger in him. 

If you push back at the right time and with the right correction, it's a done deal and we are completely moving in the right direction. 

It is ultimately hard to put into words. I'll work on it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> That's what I was told. Specifically that I should at least attempt to select and linebreed whatever genetic obedience I'm able to observe on this site; and also yes, "genetically associated" with various other traits, as of yet unbeknownst to me. This is all for the most part a mystery? I was told to watch for this kind of thing, but that's really the extent of my knowledge about it.
> 
> In my mind "genetic obedience" has always been "the pup that just naturally/instinctively wants to" and/or "just naturally/instinctively responds to universal basic verbal commands/physical gestures." I've never even seen a rake pusher before, and like I say until now I've always just kept back/inbred "the best biters" (individuals exhibiting the highest observable prey drives.) Simply inbreed too far, then take one step back. It's a foolproof system
> 
> ...


You have yet to define your goals. 

Just farm dogs.

Genetic obedience.

Best biting dog.

SAR prospect.

What is it you really want in a dog?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> It is ultimately hard to put into words. I'll work on it.


it's not you, it's the limitations of human language. All you can really do is try to simplify as much as possible in hopes a reader will realize what he's looking at, if he ever observes it. For example I'm well aware "inbreeding depression and outbreeding depression are one in the same" makes no sense whatsoever, until you've done both and realize what you're looking at. 

there are no randoms, only variables


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> You have yet to define your goals.
> 
> Just farm dogs.
> 
> ...



best biting most genetically obedient farm dog

SAR is welcome to my culls


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

remember, I didn't choose this. This chose me. I'm basically just a victim over here, as usual.

a tortured soul 

full moon everybody. Be safe.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

You absolutely chose this. Whatever happens is completely in your lap.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

no question, but that's not what I meant. I didn't choose gsd. They put one in my lap. It's fate.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

If I remember right, once upon a time Winners told me he never evaluated 49 day old litters, so I feel like I should prolly epilogue this thread with a final report. *Long term goals aside*, I observed those little wheels begin to turn instantly, the moment they hit that first brushpile. It's empirical.

I'm not trying to infer anything about hunting or tracking or SAR or anything else, beyond very clearly beneficial raw mental and physical stimulation. You don't need a forest or a brushpile or any of that. A small handful of kibble scattered over temporary little pile of household recyclables in the middle of a room downtown would create the same desired effect. 

well worth the trouble


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

So, very untrue that most certify HRD... if they do they do it for a couple of reasons but definitely not pertain I g to SAR.... 

I currently have 3 certified multi discipline dogs in Trailing, air/area (all live scent), evidence, HRD land and water... SAR is ABOUT helping, especially people still alive... Some may favor HRD due to their thoughts that 'they are dead so what can it hurt?' which is incredibly untrue and any good handler will back up my assessment.. Those doing HRD may be doing it because their area has alot of unsolved or transient type missions where they get called out... The vast amount of SAR is live find with HRD as a component (love or dead our job is to find them)..

Your pups look environmentally sound, you won't know about bite inhibitions for awhile, and alot of that is training, however, some are more aggressive minded VS excellent discernment... I want discernment...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> So, very untrue that most certify HRD... if they do they do it for a couple of reasons but definitely not pertain I g to SAR....
> 
> I currently have 3 certified multi discipline dogs in Trailing, air/area (all live scent), evidence, HRD land and water... SAR is ABOUT helping, especially people still alive... Some may favor HRD due to their thoughts that 'they are dead so what can it hurt?' which is incredibly untrue and any good handler will back up my assessment.. Those doing HRD may be doing it because their area has alot of unsolved or transient type missions where they get called out... The vast amount of SAR is live find with HRD as a component (love or dead our job is to find them)..
> 
> Your pups look environmentally sound, you won't know about bite inhibitions for awhile, and alot of that is training, however, some are more aggressive minded VS excellent discernment... I want discernment...


The few handlers I work with are all live find with HRD as a secondary discipline. 

I always want discernment. 

Attack anything that moves is such a headache and liability.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I'll write a post about it some day. She says, "just wait until he gets older," so I haven't really delved into it much yet.
> 
> Valor is the easiest GSD to train I have ever encountered. He is a very interesting combination of handler sensitive, pattern cognizant and willful. He wants to do the right thing, and he wants to figure out what that is, but he's also super confident and has a lot of middle finger in him.
> 
> ...


I don't want to derail this thread. @David Winners, I want to discuss genetic obedience. Mostly because the dog I observed it with was prone to bouts of disobedience. Lol. In spite of the name it really isn't obedience at all, it's more of an intuition and a desire to work with a human.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Hineni7 said:


> I want discernment...





David Winners said:


> I always want discernment.


well... me too... I guess...

and no licking...












Sabis mom said:


> I want to discuss genetic obedience.


me too

AND I want to stretch some yote furs on the barn wall!!!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I don't want to derail this thread. @David Winners, I want to discuss genetic obedience. Mostly because the dog I observed it with was prone to bouts of disobedience. Lol. In spite of the name it really isn't obedience at all, it's more of an intuition and a desire to work with a human.


The dog you observed with genetic obedience was disobedient.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So in my limited experience, Valor is incredibly predisposed to do whatever I want him to do.

He is also incredibly predisposed to not do the things I don't want him to do.

If you have trained a high caliber field bred lab, it is much the same. Valor is always looking at me, to me, waiting for a request, a chance to do something good. He will recall off a running rabbit. He will down when another dog is charging him aggressively and stay down while I handle it. He will focus heel, too far in front of me because I don't care, with no training. He will walk sideways to maintain eye contact with no command or training.

I'm a good dog trainer that has trained a fair number of dogs. There are only a couple dogs I have trained that have this level of attitude and biddability in the same dog.

There are knuckleheads that will eat a lion, or the handler, or the Prius next door.

There are biddable dogs that do whatever you want but are not suited for protection.

Valor has a big dose of both, and that isn't common in my experience.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> The dog you observed with genetic obedience was disobedient.
> 
> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


 🤣 
INCONCEIVABLE (sorry couldn't resist)


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> The dog you observed with genetic obedience was disobedient.
> 
> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


All things are possible. I'm not very bright. Not disobedient, never bad. More out thinking and anticipating. Ever watchful. Tied to me, problem solving to do what I wanted before I wanted it. No need to train, because she already knew what was needed and understood. And inately disgusted with my poor human self that needed 24/7 supervision. Lol.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

everybody knows you're the yin to all my yang, Sabi's Mom!!

I think it's half science half art, and we're venturing deep into art territory with this. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I definitely don't need a rake pusher. I can't even offer a coherent explanation as to why I let the better biter go and kept the rake pusher back. I guess I'm kinda scamming on my promise. Rake pusher now, best biter later.

On the disobedience thing, I'm seeing a little bit of that too. No dogs allowed in my command center. Ever. But whoopise has apparently exempted herself from that rule. She sneaks in and naps about 5 feet behind my chair. I keep telling her "Authorized Personnel Only" and she leaves when I tell her, but my back is turned and she sneaks... she's actually started building a little nest... until the snows fly again, if I'm awake the door's propped open. Not long, unfortunately.

but anyways, discernment goes without saying here. Bite the monkey, not the goat. Or else.

imprinting 4 -16 weeks


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)




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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

6 months old. I've done this before, so I already know what's gonna happen. Couple months from now, or maybe next winter, one of these mutts is gonna grab little igor by the back leg, and the other is gonna pin him to the ground by his neck; and uncle berno is gonna have to intervene and escort him back to his kennel for his own safety. And that is no joke, folks


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)




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