# Aggression after neuter?



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Anyone see a relationship between 2 males that was fine prior to neutering go south after one is? In our situation the neutered male acts completely normal, zero changes, it's the intact dog with the issues. He will often growl, sometimes he will hold his ground, other times he slinks away, not sure what to make of it.

I recall some topics regarding this, but can't seem to find anything with the newer format.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Which dog was dominant prior to neutering? 

The neutered dog may act normal but he certainly doesn't smell the same to the other dog.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Which dog was dominant prior to neutering?
> 
> The neutered dog may act normal but he certainly doesn't smell the same to the other dog.


Neither of our males really act dominate, but Ranger the neutered one is more confident. Our smaller female Zoe calls the shots for the most part. Smell may have something to do with it and Ollie (intact) has shown behavoir as if he doesn't recognize Ranger, at least earlier on after the neuter. Our girls don't treat him any differently though.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You most likely upset their apple cart. Now they probably have to reconfigure status. The dog is most likely confused with the change.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Not sure about reconfiguring status, it been several months and there's been no curbing Ollie's growling. Ranger has done well and has ignored most of it, he's his normal happy self even while be growled at, but on occassion he has been willing to "answer the bell".


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Are Ollie and Ranger both GSDs? Is Ollie younger? Sounds like he is insecure.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Ollie is a wgsl 2.5 yrs, Ranger is Czech WL 4 yrs. we also have 2-6 yr old female gsds, both spayed. They're litter mates from a byb. Ollie travels with my wife around the state doing shows and he does good in those environments, but comparing the two males Ranger is more confident and all around super happy guy, he's always smiling, lol!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Ollie is a wgsl 2.5 yrs, Ranger is Czech WL 4 yrs. we also have 2-6 yr old female gsds, both spayed. They're litter mates from a byb. Ollie travels with my wife around the state doing shows and he does good in those environments, but comparing the two males Ranger is more confident and all around super happy guy, he's always smiling, lol!


Oh, I know that there are those that are going to come on and argue, but the totem pole is generally from top to bottom intact male, intact female, neutered male and spayed female. Of course other things can factor in and there are always exceptions to the rule, but there have been studies done to document this.

Ollie is confused, he thinks he can be top dog but not sure about it. He is not sure if he wants to be. It is similar to when a top dog ages and sometimes younger dogs begin to jockey for the position.


----------



## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

Initially, I would've thought Ollie was trying to take rank over the now neutered Ranger. But months of this...? I'm guessing your "pesky human meddling" has prevented him actually getting a chance to challenge Ranger? Maybe that's why it continues.

However, the issue becomes that you have allowed this to continue. Either let them dance, or eliminate this behavior. I'd be careful with him near other males. Is he near others during his shows? If so, how much interaction? Just somewhat nearby, or actually getting to 'mingle?'

Intact males can be 'interesting' when I come upon them at dog parks. They're either great...or just always trying to start stuff with other males. Good example: my boy & I were walking through the nearby big wooded dog park and came across a guy with 2 intact male pit bulls. No issues whatsoever. Walked with them (everyone was off leash the whole time & before even meeting) after saying hello. Great friendly dogs the whole time. We passed by plenty of people & dogs. No prongs, chokers, or e collars. Just two intact dogs that knew to behave.
Bad example: at the lake, all dogs are getting along great. Some are intact, some aren't. Everyone is playing & splashing around. Some lady brings her small breed intact male. Some kind of JRT mix? It saw a large male gsd (I forget if gsd was intact or not) and spent the next 10-15 minutes pretty much attacking & harassing it. Good thing that shepherd was kind & taught to not engage/ignore snappy dogs...could have probay bitten that dog in half in the blink of an eye. The harassment only ended because the owner took her small dog to leave, embarassed.

A lot of the jerk intact male dogs go straight for my neutered boy. I guess they want to put on a show for other dogs and assert their 'testicular awesomeness' thinking he'll surely back down to their jerk ways & show of teeth. Maybe they think he's a good target because he's a good sized dog and fairly young (almost 1.5 now). Nope. He's the friendliest dog, but he won't concede to random attackers. He holds his ground firmly when the other dog tries going at him. Thankfully, though, I can recall him out of a fray.

He can apparently now tell if a dog is about to try starting something. Maybe a month ago someone entered into a park with their intact male. Not the largest of dogs, but not the smallest either. The owners looked uncertain. I was inside the shaded area, talking to the owner of a female Mal that I occasionally have seen there. My dog kind of blew the intact dog off, but gave a brief small growl, as if saying, "go away. Don't bother." The guy was like, "wow...that's not like your dog...I've never seen him not be excited about greeting another dog." I replied, "that intact dog was probably looking to annoy him." And sure enough, maybe 40 seconds later, that dog was over starting stuff with all the other males, one after another.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Oh, I know that there are those that are going to come on and argue, but the totem pole is generally from top to bottom intact male, intact female, neutered male and spayed female. Of course other things can factor in and there are always exceptions to the rule, but there have been studies done to document this.
> 
> Ollie is confused, he thinks he can be top dog but not sure about it. He is not sure if he wants to be. It is similar to when a top dog ages and sometimes younger dogs begin to jockey for the position.


That's probably true in many cases when it comes to pecking order. Zoey has softened a bit as she's aged, but she's still top dog and has no qualms about asserting herself if allowed to.



Saito said:


> Initially, I would've thought Ollie was trying to take rank over the now neutered Ranger. But months of this...? I'm guessing your "pesky human meddling" has prevented him actually getting a chance to challenge Ranger? Maybe that's why it continues.
> 
> However, the issue becomes that you have allowed this to continue. Either let them dance, or eliminate this behavior. I'd be careful with him near other males. Is he near others during his shows? If so, how much interaction? Just somewhat nearby, or actually getting to 'mingle?'
> 
> ...


Testicular awesomeness, lol 

I don't know if dogs jockey for 2,3,4 but if so then that could be factor in this. I do agree that Ollie is confused about something, smell, rank, it's not really clear, we're confused too. My wife and Ollie travel with other people and their dogs including intact males with no issues.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

my dogs often act aggressive with one another, mostly it is bark, growl and in essence, play. But there is an underlying communication keeping each other in their places. If one was altered, then I can see that we'd have a bit of a scuffle/pack shuffle depending on the individual dog. 
Scent change is the biggie, IMO and dogs are so in tune to that, it triggers behaviors and then they see where it goes as far as the pack order plays out. Kind of like a dog with illness and 'weakness' is scented, that dog would be focused on.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> *my dogs often act aggressive with one another, mostly it is bark, growl and in essence, play. But there is an underlying communication keeping each other in their places.* If one was altered, then I can see that we'd have a bit of a scuffle/pack shuffle depending on the individual dog.
> Scent change is the biggie, IMO and dogs are so in tune to that, it triggers behaviors and then they see where it goes as far as the pack order plays out. Kind of like a dog with illness and 'weakness' is scented, that dog would be focused on.


This was normal for us too. Change in scent is sounding like the most likely cause, just not sure about his motivation. Some of his "episodes" reflect more of a fear response, i.e. heading to my wife or his crate like he's seeking safety.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Nigel said:


> Not sure about reconfiguring status, it been several months and there's been no curbing Ollie's growling. Ranger has done well and has ignored most of it, he's his normal happy self even while be growled at, but on occassion he has been willing to "answer the bell".


This is my Midnite and Apollo. Midnite is the happy pup that tries to avoid a fight(he was neutered when I got him and he just turned 4). Apollo will be 2 and was intact until January. Apollo is the first dog I've waited to neuter and might have been the most edgy dog I have, so I had to always watch him. He has always had issues with Midnite and Batman. To be fair none of the GSDs care for Batman, they tolerate him. Batman has found his little group with Brennan(younger golden) and Charlie(the temp Beagle I still have). 

Apollo has always attempted to challenge Midnite, Midnite has always ignored him. No one challenges either female(both spayed). The females are the top dogs in that sense. Robyn and Apollo have grouped together and it's a perfect match--she demands respect and he gives it. He will not cross her. In fact during her recovery early on, Midnite came to close to her and she kinda snapped at him, Apollo came out of nowhere and was on Midnite within a blink. The fight ended with Midnite putting his feet and all his weight on Apollo so I could grab him. They have been separated ever since. I just started re-introducing Robyn and Midnite and that is going well. 

Having said all of that, Tannor my older golden(neutered) might very well be the top male, sometimes I think top dog period. No one challenges him, he does his own thing and doesn't bother with any of them. They all leave him alone--he is the only dog that hasn't been involved in any kind of let's call it bickering. Apollo tried when he was younger and Tannor completely ignored him and kept doing whatever he was doing. So early on Apollo learned who he could get away with what, but he still tries to bully Midnite and I still step in and stop him. It has gotten much better since Apollo was neutered, but I still stay on top of it because I don't want anything to escalate.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

llombardo said:


> This is my Midnite and Apollo. Midnite is the happy pup that tries to avoid a fight(he was neutered when I got him and he just turned 4). Apollo will be 2 and was intact until January. Apollo is the first dog I've waited to neuter and might have been the most edgy dog I have, so I had to always watch him. He has always had issues with Midnite and Batman. To be fair none of the GSDs care for Batman, they tolerate him. Batman has found his little group with Brennan(younger golden) and Charlie(the temp Beagle I still have).
> 
> Apollo has always attempted to challenge Midnite, Midnite has always ignored him. No one challenges either female(both spayed). The females are the top dogs in that sense. Robyn and Apollo have grouped together and it's a perfect match--she demands respect and he gives it. He will not cross her. In fact during her recovery early on, Midnite came to close to her and she kinda snapped at him, Apollo came out of nowhere and was on Midnite within a blink. The fight ended with Midnite putting his feet and all his weight on Apollo so I could grab him. They have been separated ever since. I just started re-introducing Robyn and Midnite and that is going well.
> 
> Having said all of that, Tannor my older golden(neutered) might very well be the top male, sometimes I think top dog period. No one challenges him, he does his own thing and doesn't bother with any of them. They all leave him alone--he is the only dog that hasn't been involved in any kind of let's call it bickering. Apollo tried when he was younger and Tannor completely ignored him and kept doing whatever he was doing. So early on Apollo learned who he could get away with what, but he still tries to bully Midnite and I still step in and stop him. It has gotten much better since Apollo was neutered, but I still stay on top of it because I don't want anything to escalate.


We've had to step our management too, we can't have this escalate, a two dog fight could quickly become a 3 dog fight. Sounds like your in the same boat.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Nigel said:


> We've had to step our management too, we can't have this escalate, a two dog fight could quickly become a 3 dog fight. Sounds like your in the same boat.


Yep. The last argument was all 3. It was difficult because Robyn was just recovering from her surgery and quite grumpy(she is much better now). It seems that she dictates Apollos responses. So if I keep her neutral, which is easy to do because I have great voice control over her, everything is fine. It also helps that now that Apollo is older all the training he had has kicked in and I have way more voice control over him to. I was playing with the pool when this fight broke out, so I did not have time to stop it. My main concern was keeping Robyn safe because she just had surgery, so I had to hold her by the collar with one hand(but she was ready to go and had no problem jumping in--she is not one you want to end up in a fight-very powerful dog) and try to pull Apollo off Midnite. I ended up with a sprained thumb but no dogs had any injuries(it was just very loud and scary as it happened).

I'm lucky as far as outside goes, I have 3 seperate areas, so all the dogs can be out. I have plans in the future for a pool/deck and swing set, so at that time the yard will be reconfigured and fences will be more sturdy(right now it's a smaller fence in one area but it works). All the arguments/problems happen outside, so I will focus on that and everyone can enjoy being outside onbeautiful days. I keep Brennan, Batman and Charlie in one area, Robyn and Apollo in another and Misty, Tannor, and Midnite in the other area. They all have swimming time, so I just rotate the areas. No matter what Misty and Tannor can be with any of the dogs and Robyn can to, but I have to watch her with Batman--she loves Charlie the beagle.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Yes, control is key. On the few occasions Ranger takes note of the growling and looks like he'll respond, a calm firm "Ranger come" and he'll break it off and be front and center on me. Ranger, just like Zoey started out as my wife's dog, she put a lot of work into both of them. Over time they became glued to me and now Ranger follows me everywhere, I can't make a move without him being right there. Ollie is my wife's dog through and through, so this helps with keeping them out of trouble as our after work routines are different.


----------

