# Hmmm...What do you think?



## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

So, I was bored and was trolling around on the ebay classifieds and came across this ad. What kind of breeder would you consider this to be? Backyard? Reputable? Hobby? I think that they are nice looking dogs. Looked them up on the data base. I am by all means no expert, just curious to see others opinions. 

Beautiful large german shepherd puppies - whelped 2/13/11 | New Baltimore | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 9196181


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Looks like they're Mittelwest Kennels. Both dam and sire are listed on their website, under "stud services" and "breeding females". 

Mittelwest German Shepherd puppies for sale, German Shepherd Dogs for sale


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If a breeder is advertising on ebay/ kiji ~it doesn't bode well in my opinion of them being responsible. These breeders usually are glorified puppy mills, and have several litters on the ground and not enough buyers or reserves. 
Then you have to fish around to find their kennel name because they won't list it on the ad??? 
There are many responsible showline breeders selling pups for that price and I'd rather buy from one that I know of vs one that is just running ads on internet sites.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Then you have to fish around to find their kennel name because they won't list it on the ad???


That's true, they could have just tacked their website onto the ad. Makes you wonder why they didn't  And the dam is titled, so it probably wouldn't fall under the "oops" litter category.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I don't think Mittelwest owns the litter. They do own the sire (Albert), whom they stud out. I believe Isha was sold (she may not have been taken off the site yet).


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I also can not believe people that post looking for a pup. Geez not like they are that hard to find.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I ran into a 4 month old GSD pup and his owner today at petco. Asked her where she got her pup, and it was from puppy.com or something. She said the pup was from Indiana and the "breeder" had several other pups/breeds...I didn't go there about the fact that it was a miller pup. The puppy was a cute SL with nice pigment and socialized well. She already had him neutered unfortunately and she said she regretted it after she learned why early isn't better. She takes him to doggy daycare, and they probably suggested it. 
Too bad people see these ads on google searches and don't research more. They may get a good dog, but why pay/support these breeders when others do it right at the same price they are paying?


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Mittelwest are NOT backyard breeders or a puppy mill!!! They have beautiful dogs that they show and title, I have competed at shows where they have shown at and have been very impressed with their dogs, if only all backyard breeders or millers were like Mittelwest!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

looks like a female bred by Mittlewest, sold bred to a Mittlewest male...not Mittlewest...they are not in MI anyway

lee


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Breeders who consistently produce good dogs are getting the most important aspects of breeding right, IMO. Is the Indiana breeder known to abuse or mistreat her dogs? That's certainly not something I'd find acceptable in a 'good breeder'?


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Michigangermanshepherd.com is the site listed on the pedigree database ( where there is also an ad for these pups). Sorry - tried posting link but iPad is being a PITA!


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Michigan German Shepherd | German Shepherd Puppies for Sale | German Shepherd Breeders
Here it is...


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

IMHO, discounting a breeder based on simply where they are advertising is unfortunate.

Screening a home is what's important, not where you found the buyer.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you like these dogs (Mittelwest), probably better to just go to Julie/Mittelwest and get one.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Rerun said:


> IMHO, discounting a breeder based on simply where they are advertising is unfortunate.
> 
> Screening a home is what's important, not where you found the buyer.


I agree. We complain because it's hard for the average person to find good responsible breeders, and then we condemn breeders based on the fact that they advertise in places where the average person looks for dogs?

I don't know enough about this breeder to say anything one way or the other, but to judge them based on where they advertise is just ludicrous. As long as they're not advertising on CL where it's against the rules, I say more power to them.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> I don't think Mittelwest owns the litter. They do own the sire (Albert), whom they stud out. I believe Isha was sold (she may not have been taken off the site yet).


Oh ok, that makes more sense now. Thanks!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My point is most good breeders really don't need to advertise. Word of mouth and their reputation will sell their puppies before they are even whelped. 
When you sell live animals on a generic site like ebay, it just makes me wonder why they have to? Usually the people that buy from these sites are ones that haven't done enough research to look at individual kennels, lines,etc. They just want a certain breed and hit the google links.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Word of mouth is advertising. Advertising is also having a website and having your kennel name in your signature line. And then there is just straightforward advertising which isn't allowed on here-cause good breeders don't do that they have their puppies sold before they are whelped


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Exactly...word of mouth advertising where you hear from people you know about kennels and what they are producing.
Many breeders do have a long wait for their pups so they don't need to go on kiji to sell. 
A signature with a kennel name is a breeder who is proud of what they produce. I'm thankful that they are able to link their kennels here.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

"Good-breeders" don't always have all their puppies sold before the litter hits the ground....
There are often times, that a couple of puppies may not be spoken for......that's when advertisement helps.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Mother is titled, and certs in place, father is titled and certs in place, Mittlewest kennel is cream of crop in American WGSL breeding. What I am missing is how the marketing, website, ebay, peoples opinions, are going to pass to the pups?????? All of the things I see title/cert police tell newbies their dogs ought to have is there. Now the website/marketing/where they advertise/who owns the dogs, has become points that give monitors concern....Whew! I just don't get it!!!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Cliff....thumbs up!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Cliff and Robin, would you list your litters on ebay?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Jane...I have none listed.....to be honest, I never even ventured into the classifieds section....until just recently.
I buy specific items on Ebay.
*However;.....I don't chastise people for advertising there or anywhere else. Where a litter is advertised has little importance, and certainly not more than the quality of the litter itself.*... that is my perspective.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

If you look at their website it looks like they haven't been around long--- so word of mouth probably isn't enough for them. I guess you have to start somewhere!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> My point is most good breeders really don't need to advertise. *Word of mouth and their reputation* will sell their puppies before they are even whelped.


But the recommendation you get for a kennel, is only as good as the knowledge behind the person who recommends them, right?

It makes for interesting conversation and debate but there is no perfect way to advertise and no perfect way to find a good breeder. I don't know who the first person was to say "Buyer beware" but it never gets old.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

"good breeders" do not all take deposits on unborn litters and hold that deposit hostage if they do not have the puppy a buyer wants - and even with a waiting list, you often do not have the right combo of pups and buyers! I don't even put up a web page until I have a litter confirmed - I have had buyers wait for 2 years for pups because they KNOW one of mine and so I have an informal list but I usually limit even that to 2 or 3 people who know what is in the works...so when I do have a litter, I am looking for appropriate homes once I know what I have - drive, personality and sex wise.

Lee


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Let me see if I understand things in here. 
Like Cliff said, it appears that every breeding dog and breeder must meet certain criteria in here in order to pass the grade. But that isn't any good unless the pups/breeders market in a particular venue. 
Are there any more hoops to jump through before a pup/breeder is deemed acceptable in here? :headbang:


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't think it will come as any surprise that I am in complete agreeance with onyx' girl. And I would disregard ANY breeder that advertised on ebay (or any internet classified site ie: puppyfind.com, for that matter). I don't care how reputable or how fantastic their pups may be. I would support a breeder that does not contribute to a practice that I feel is very bad for dogs all around.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

DharmasMom said:


> I don't think it will come as any surprise that I am in complete agreeance with onyx' girl. And I would disregard ANY breeder that advertised on ebay (or any internet classified site ie: puppyfind.com, for that matter). I don't care how reputable or how fantastic their pups may be. I would support a breeder that does not contribute to a practice that I feel is very bad for dogs all around.


Just playing devil's advocate here....if someone doesn't know where to buy a puppy and looks online and ONLY sees pups from bad breeders, then THAT is what they'll buy. Maybe it's not such a bad thing to advertise a link to better dogs? 

That said, the breeder my dogs came from wouldn't be seen advertising there.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I really don't want to sell a dog to people who are excessively picky...so for many of you we would do fine...doesn't change the quality of my dogs. I have advertised in a newspaper before, like I said it doesn't bother me what the elitest think about my practices because I focus on the important aspects of the breed...guess that's why I am so LUCKY with the dogs I own...cause I certainly don't follow unecessary practices that sound good and don't prove anything.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> I don't think it will come as any surprise that I am in complete agreeance with onyx' girl. And I would disregard ANY breeder that advertised on ebay (or any internet classified site ie: puppyfind.com, for that matter). I don't care how reputable or how fantastic their pups may be. I would support a breeder that does not contribute to a practice that I feel is very bad for dogs all around.


If it's a reputable breeder, they are still going to screen people the same way, no matter where they advertise. So I'm confused as to how that might be "contributing" to something that is bad for dogs?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jane, I wouldn't sell on Ebay because I don't do Ebay for anything....but I breed German Shepherds for people who are interested in the breed. What they do with the dog after they get it, I cannot control. When I first got into the breed people just bought dogs...period. Today because of the specializations it is necessary to have knowledge of bloodlines to get a good dog, imo. As for the investigation of breeders and buyers...I am not a rescue center...sorry. Everybody can write me off their Xmas list because of my practices, and I'll still have good dogs...LOL.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

I think it comes down to a variety of things. I wouldn't think to look on ebay for breeder.

Uniformed people will make uninformed decisions, IMO. If they don't know any better, they'll look in classified type adds for a dog. To those people (uninformed) it's like buying anything else that they want.
I also think that "people vote with their pocketbooks". People who don't know any better will look online for breeders, look at the pictures and look at prices. They will then look at pictures and prices in classified, figure that "those dogs all look the same, I think I'll save a bunch of money" and they end up buying from a less than reputable or BYB.

I'm not knocking reputable breeders or their prices. I've known all along that you get what you pay for and price alone is no indication of the cost of a dog in the long run.
Since joining this forum a few months ago, I've learned a great deal about what to look for in a breeder, and I thought I had a pretty good handle on it before.

Pardon me, but if I saw what I thought to be a reputable breeder (based on my own research and very possibly opinions I would come here to get) I wouldn't think any less of that breeder. But that's me and my opinion and how I make decisioins to spend my money. I don't know why more reputable breeders don't advertise in that fashion, but the obviously have their reasons.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> If it's a reputable breeder, they are still going to screen people the same way, no matter where they advertise. So I'm confused as to how that might be "contributing" to something that is bad for dogs?



Yes, a reputable breeder will screen potential owners. But if they are advertising on a site like that then they are supporting a site who's basic motto is "come one, come all" and that would include puppy mills and very bad bybs. I, personally, would prefer to support a breeder that would not support a site that contributes to that mind set.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

DharmasMom said:


> Yes, a reputable breeder will screen potential owners. But if they are advertising on a site like that then they are supporting a site who's basic motto is "come one, come all" and that would include puppy mills and very bad bybs. I, personally, would prefer to support a breeder that would not support a site that contributes to that mind set.


I don't see how they're supporting ebay classifieds when it's free to post on there.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Kris10 said:


> If you look at their website it looks like they haven't been around long--- so word of mouth probably isn't enough for them. I guess you have to start somewhere!


This is the impression I got. I live in Michigan and try to keep tabs on the breeders here (I have a file somewhere) because people ask me all the time where to go in their area. I especially follow the west German show line ones as I do like some dogs from these lines and own one (and will own more). I've never heard of this breeder and it looks like they bought a breeding female from Mittelwest and bred to their stud (or perhaps purchased the bitch in whelp). There really is not enough information on their site for me to make any judgments about their dogs or their breeding, but since the breeding dogs are both from Mittelwest, that is why I suggested to go to the source if the OP had any reason to question this breeder but liked those dogs.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Not to mention that no matter who advertises on what venue, the ultimate choice is made by the buyer, everyone has their own idea of what they want and have decision to research their choices, it's simply ridiculous to judge the quality of a dog because of where it's advertised, it's just bizarre, I know a lot of top notch breeders who advertise in the classifieds, I have bought a great dog in the past, and would certainly not hesistate to do it again, I know what I like and what quality I want, where they are advertised isn't going to change that, it's as simple as that.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Buyers seeking a pup need to concern themselves first with finding breeders that produce long lived, sound, healthy dogs of the breed & type they're interested in. This is problematic enough with some breeds, (GS among them, IMO) that it's counter productive & foolish to throw up arbitrary obstacles that are irrelevant to the quality of dogs being produced.

Unfortunately, those good breeders who aren't comfortable advertising become all but invisible to JQP. People who advertise can still screen buyers & decline to sell to people that don't meet their criteria. Advertising also provides an excellent opportunity for breeders to elucidate their breeding philosophy & goals.

As noted, word of mouth, signatures & web links are all forms of advertising. They are neither more nor less legitimate than other forms of advertising. To be sure of getting the right GSD, people should focus on dam, sire, previous progeny & extended family & worry a whole lot less about irrelevant matters.

I know of too many people that did it 'all right' but wound up heartbroken b/c the dig died much too young, or had to be pts due to serious health problems, or struggled with faulty temperaments throughout the dog's life. On paper, these were breeders that met all of the magical criteria, they just don't manage to produce very good dogs. I'll take a so called 'mediocre' breeder with great dogs over a touted 'excellent' breeder with weak, unhealthy dogs any day. For me, the ultimate proof of the breeder is whether s/he produces strong, healthy, long lived dogs of exemplary temperament, not whether s/he fits well in some contrived check list.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> My point is most good breeders really don't need to advertise. Word of mouth and their reputation will sell their puppies before they are even whelped.


This is a myth. A good breeder with good networking skills may have this be the case. But not having a litter pre-sold does mean it's not a good litter from a good breeder. 

I've had times when I've had 4 females pre-sold and have a litter of 7 males, for example. I've had buyers back out the day they were supposed to pick up their pup--and many other scenarios are also not unusual. 

Any pups I don't have sold at 8 weeks are socialized separately and with other dogs, they go on car rides and pet stores and get their shots. If I still have them at 6 months, I take them to classes to keep their minds engaged and to keep them socialized to strange places and dogs.

I recently sold 12 month old to an experienced SAR home--I've known from the beginning that he wasn't a keeper for me (I was keeping his sister from the same litter). But he is a dog who needed, very much, a job. He is going to make an excellent SAR dog. I could have sold him 4 or 5 times to pet homes--but I held onto him because they weren't the right homes for him--he would have ended up re-doing their ductwork or something creative (the first day in his new home with his new handler he stood at the top of some steps turned a door handle and pulled it *toward* him to get into the rest of the house! that's after playing hours of ball!)

Taking care to find the *right* home for a dog may mean that it isn't pre-sold or that it isn't sold at 8 weeks. It's more work, but it's a very important part of breeding, IMO. And setting up arbitrary rules about how no breeder who doesn't have the entire litter pre-sold isn't a good or responsible breeder is just propaganda that seems to designed to make sure that very few people dare to try to breed "responsibly."


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I shouldn't have used the term "sold" before whelp, but there is usually a wait for what many great breeders are producing. Should have worded that differently.

I am all for advertising, though the puppyfinder or ebay just seems to be the wrong way to go. I am not an elitist either....I just wonder why if someone takes the time/effort/investment to breed, they need to sell their pups on ebay or puppyfinder. Usually the dogs listed are from puppymills....
This post explains what I was trying to say:


> Uniformed people will make uninformed decisions, IMO. If they don't know any better, they'll look in classified type adds for a dog. To those people (uninformed) it's like buying anything else that they want.
> I also think that "people vote with their pocketbooks". People who don't know any better will look online for breeders, look at the pictures and look at prices. They will then look at pictures and prices in classified, figure that "those dogs all look the same, I think I'll save a bunch of money" and they end up buying from a less than reputable or BYB


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

There is a major flaw in this type of logic:
Puppymills and BYBs advertise on ebay, kiji, and the classifieds in news papers; therefore, anyone breeder advertising there must produce inferior pups.
Don't rush to judgement about a breeder until you have walked in their shoes.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

The more inaccessible good breeders are, the more bad breeders thrive.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Didn't say they produce "inferior" pups. 
I guess my logic is flawed~ I would think they could advertise elsewhere; with training clubs, working/show dog forums, etc because these are GSD's and not toy breeds.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> The more inaccessible good breeders are, the more bad breeders thrive.


And this is where researching comes in. Instead of clicking a google search....and going with the first good looking litter that pops up. Too bad more people don't do their homework before purchase.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> And this is where researching comes in. Instead of clicking a google search....and going with the first good looking litter that pops up. Too bad more people don't do their homework before purchase.


Unfortunately I don't know very many people who do real homework and research for their first GSD. Maybe their 2nd or 3rd. Maybe never. If a good but uninformed buyer happens to stumble across a good breeder through ebay classifieds, puppyfind, K9stud, etc I think it's a good thing.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

How about looking at it this way. If someone browsing puppy ads on EBay comes across a "reputable" breeder and checks out their site, maybe they will be curious about what health guarantees are for, titles, etc. Maybe they will wonder about the other breeders who don't have such information available. 
Not everyone starts their search for a puppy in the same way.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Like Cliff said, since when did where a dog was advertised effect the genetics/temperament of a dog? I can't follow that logic at all. 
"Since it's on this particular web-site, it must come from a BYB or Puppymill" ...
Someone needs to explain that one to me.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

With 80+% of the people having computers in their homes or access to a computer, how do you think people "start" their research? Probably by a search on "German shepherds"? And if they want to buy a German shepherd, how would they search for that? "German shepherds puppies for sale" maybe?


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Doc said:


> There is a major flaw in this type of logic:
> Puppymills and BYBs advertise on ebay, kiji, and the classifieds in news papers; therefore, anyone breeder advertising there must produce inferior pups.
> Don't rush to judgement about a breeder until you have walked in their shoes.



Never said that all of the breeders on ebay, etc are puppy mills, bybs,etc. But the majority of them are. I would prefer a breeder that does not support those classified ads and thereby supports unscrupulous breeders and puppy mills. Plus I believe that the majority of people that are shopping on ebay for a puppy are going to go with the cheapest puppy available. When given the choice of the puppy from the good breeder of $1500 or the puppy from the puppy mill for $300 they are going to take the $300 puppy and not really concern themselves where the puppy comes from.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Doc said:


> Like Cliff said, since when did where a dog was advertised effect the genetics/temperament of a dog? I can't follow that logic at all.
> "Since it's on this particular web-site, it must come from a BYB or Puppymill" ...
> Someone needs to explain that one to me.



Actually in my thread about ebay selling puppies I posted multiple links about puppies being sold on the internet. Estimates are that anywhere from 85-95% of puppies on sites like those are from bybs and puppy mills.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> Didn't say they produce "inferior" pups.
> I guess my logic is flawed~ I would think they could advertise elsewhere; with training clubs, working/show dog forums, etc because these are GSD's and not toy breeds.


Is it OK for a toy breed but not for a GSD? 

I do understand what you're saying...I know good breeders DO advertise with training clubs and on breed forums. But those ads only reach a certain type of puppy buyer, and those are the people who tend to be actively researching already. Very few pet people start out knowing what a training club is, and they think "dog show" means conformation show and nothing else....tho I am often asked if my dogs do that "game where they run around and jump over a bunch of stuff."  

Guess I got lucky in a way. My first GSD was from a local Am-lines show breeder who had dogs from old Cobert lines. She GAVE me this bitch, who eventually became my first UD dog. She was the mother of my 2nd and 3rd UD dogs, and mother of my first (and only) breed Champion (Canada and UKC). Lara lived to 13 years 3 months, healthy except for an awful bloat experience in her middle years. By the time I was looking for my next dog I had been around enough German working lines dogs that I knew THAT was what I wanted! Most people aren't given particularly good advice when it comes to their first dogs.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

When I look at my area (Dallas) ebay classifieds, I see about 70% from rescues and shelters, and the rest is evenly distributed among $200-$400 puppies, $500-$800 puppies, and $800-$1800 puppies. I don't think that's heavily biased in favor of byb's and puppy mills. If anything, somebody looking for a GSD on Dallas ebay classifieds would get a lot of exposure to rescue dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Look at the countries where there is a lot of Snobbery in the breed, and look at the countries where breeding and selling practices are not complicated. Then look at who has dogs that people worldwide want, and look at those that no others are seeking but the self contained group. Though I am generalizing, it gives a clue as to who has a clue, imo.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

OK. A person goes to "the dreaded puppymill/BYB" advertising site and sees a $300 German shepherd puppy listed right beside a $1,000 German shepherd puppy. According to one post, the $300 puppy will sell before the $1,000 puppy. The purchase of the dog has nothing to do with the genetics/temperament of the puppy IN EITHER case. Why are people criticizing the breeder that is trying to sell his puppy for $1,000???


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

Hank came from a breeder who has a long waiting list and who interviewed me for an HOUR on the phone the first time I called her. I think the only reason I "got in" was that my ex has two of her dogs who are now 6 and 7.

I'm not saying this makes me better than anyone else, but I am saying I feel she is a very responsible breeder and really cares where her dogs end up.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have to say, I meet a lot better pet-dog homes, where the owners looked in online classifieds, than I see good homes in the working/show circles.

If I had puppies for sale, I would be just fine in placing them in a loving, active, sensible pet-dog-found-it-online home, than in some of the working-kennel-living-electric-all-the-time homes that are so very knowledgeable.

_and yes, every now and then I do feel the need to rant._


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## bigdavejoker (Feb 9, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> And this is where researching comes in. Instead of clicking a google search....and going with the first good looking litter that pops up. Too bad more people don't do their homework before purchase.





Emoore said:


> Unfortunately I don't know very many people who do real homework and research for their first GSD. Maybe their 2nd or 3rd. Maybe never. If a good but uninformed buyer happens to stumble across a good breeder through ebay classifieds, puppyfind, K9stud, etc I think it's a good thing.


This is the biggest problem. If you don't know what to look for how do you know to look for it. Unless someone has grown up around good working GSD's that are titled how do you know all the good informaiton you need to know? I was very much one of those very uninfomred buyers when I got Millie 2.5 years ago. So far she has turend out to be a great dog. We were very fortunate to meeting and working with now a very good friend of ours on training Millie. Without meeting her we wouldn't have known have the stuff we have learned and would have been much slower to finding forums like this to obtain more education. I would do much more research the next time I get a GSD.

For advertising you have to get your name into the cirlcdes somehow. I agree with the other comments that it's not about where you advertise but about the screening you do of potential buyers.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Doc said:


> OK. A person goes to "the dreaded puppymill/BYB" advertising site and sees a $300 German shepherd puppy listed right beside a $1,000 German shepherd puppy. According to one post, the $300 puppy will sell before the $1,000 puppy. The purchase of the dog has nothing to do with the genetics/temperament of the puppy IN EITHER case. Why are people criticizing the breeder that is trying to sell his puppy for $1,000???


I don't know if you are referring to my post a while back (it's all starting to make me dizzy...LOL)



> Uniformed people will make uninformed decisions, IMO. If they don't know any better, they'll look in classified type adds for a dog. To those people (uninformed) it's like buying anything else that they want.
> I also think that "people vote with their pocketbooks". People who don't know any better will look online for breeders, look at the pictures and look at prices. They will then look at pictures and prices in classified, figure that "those dogs all look the same, I think I'll save a bunch of money" and they end up buying from a less than reputable or BYB.
> 
> I'm not knocking reputable breeders or their prices. I've known all along that you get what you pay for and price alone is no indication of the cost of a dog in the long run.
> ...


I was not criticizing the reputable breeder for selling his pup for $1000, I think I even mentioned that initial price has little to do with the "cost" of a puppy in the long term. I don't mind spending more money for quality. Most of our dogs have come from rescues, but our next dog will come from a breeder. I would rather spend $1800 up front and have a much better idea of what I'm getting in terms of temperment and overall health.
I also realize that nothing is 100%, but I think my chances are a lot better with a reputable breeder who will take the time to "match" me to one of their pups, based on what I say I'm looking for and what the breeder feels is going to work for me. I don't have a problem with the breeder interviewing me and finding out whatever they need to know to make that decision. 
And finally, I don't care where that breeder advertises, in the end, it's up to me to pick someone to purchase from. If I make a bad choice, I guess I get (or can get) a "bad" dog.

There are a lot of reputable breeders on this site and I have learned a lot from viewing their posts and gleaning the information that applies to what I want and what I'm looking for. If I offended any of them, it was unintended and I apologize.
I hope to be buying a puppy at some point soon and I'm guessing it will be from someone I found about on this site.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> And this is where researching comes in. Instead of clicking a google search....and going with the first good looking litter that pops up. Too bad more people don't do their homework before purchase.


Many people going to conformation shows believe they are doing their homework. Only a relatively small number seek assistance from discussion boards & frankly the advice on these varies widely. Many new owners can become embroiled in a quagmire of tricky, contradictory advice & info.

Breeders are certainly entitled to avoid all print & online advertising if they choose to. Those willing to advertise can provide valuable info to lost & confused pet seekers who truly want to do it right but simply don't know how. IMO, breeders s/b encouraged in these efforts & not be automatically dissed & (AGAIN) smeared as 'millers' or byb.

For that matter, people seeking dogs from breeders on the board should also be encouraged to dig deeper & not simply rely on word of mouth from other members.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Well hello there. I am "with" Cliff on this one.

Horror of horrors I advertised on kijiji . In fact it was a contact from kijiji which brought me to this great little forum. thanks for that .

When you get as old as Cliff and I you realize that times and things have changed. I had this converstation with psd Mike some time ago. You have to constantly adapt to social changes. When I started out the local newspaper had thick and journalistically excellent news magazines as part of the Saturday paper . There was a section dedicated to adverts , including the go to place for "pets - large livestock". Now you have a barely literate group of news jockeys , no indepth . You have the ads section on the weekend a single page here or there as thin as tissue paper. 
Magazines and newspapers are having a difficult time - vanishing . Everything is on line. So where are the on line ads. Kijiji is one. I am not crazy about it , resisted for a long long time because it does have the connotation of bargain basement , discount mall dealing . People do use these sites and so you become accessible . Times are changing . We have to adapt . 

I only have one to two litters a year. 

That means if I put an ad in the Dogs Annual , then I have enquiries all year long which I respond to - so valuable time, and money on the ad. If I put an ad in with a gorgeous professional picture (Mark Raycroft) then I have people that want a dog EXACTLY like that -- colour oriented . I have even had people be specific about the "pumpkin seeds" above the eyebrows on some of the dark dogs. Sheesh. So no pictures. But you are competing with pictures .
Then there are people whose criterion of excellence is that the dog is black and tan , black and red. Go away . Yes getting short . I could have the worlds "most superest cape wearing hero dog " , oh but it is sable , so it is not a gsd.
So should you advertise in Dog World or Dog Fancy for the snobbery . Who on this forum buys these magazines?
In the magazines you would afford a few lines which get buried by attention grabbing two page centerfold full colour glossy black and red "team" show producing kennels which keep on breeding first generation dogs. Do you know what those pages cost every month . Thousands . In a reverse psychology that means these people are good because they can demand $$$ 's and can afford the $$$'s for the ads. That has nothing to do with quality.
Pedigree data base is on line , internet advertising. I have used it to buy . Got outstanding pups from Parchimer Land that put up a link -- so glad they did. Now how do we find foreign dogs for sale? That is one of the advantages of on line .
So Dharmasmom -- good luck . Because you put an ad somewhere does not mean you approve of every one else advertising in the same place. I am the first to bring out the cannons of disapproval for some of the things going on in the breed. I have no knowledge of the ebay thing . A dog is not merchandise . A very thorough screening process is used. With my Nov 3 litter I turned away 4 or 5 people -- . I am very selective . However if ebay was just a place to get the name out there to have people contact you I have no problem. On the other hand has no one ever visited a web site of really well known "breeders" who have a handy PayPal link to pay for the dog ??? I have . There are lots of breeders / kennels out there that are pretty commercial -- one of which , (no longer breeding) had waiting lists and you did not even have a choice of which litter your pup came from . You paid your bucks you took a number and when your number came up a pup of the right gender was chosen for you . yes . So the motto come on and come all has nothing to do with where a dog is advertised. I don't support pet-shop mentality. Say it again -- a dog is not a commodity . 

My dogs don't sell for $2,500 or $3,000 or $6,000 as some have said they have spent.

I can not get my head around people choosing their dog out of a litter when the pup is only 2 weeks old. I would not allow that. That is lazy. Lazy. Commodifiy the pup. A widget on a shelf. If and when I have a litter and I have interested parties they can come out and socialize with the pups in my house when they are about 5 weeks of age. In other words when the pup is able to display some dynamics. I can sit back and I can evaluate the pups basic personality, allow me to have long discussions with the people , get to know them. Then we reserve a pup a male or a female but have not finalized it till the pups are older. 

So let us take a step back in time. Litters were bred because someone needed a dog themselves as a replacement. Let's use the GSD . Some proud hard working shepherd had a very fine female that was out in the fields working away. A working partner dog may have had some age creeping up and was soon due to retire . So said shepherd may have had his eye on a fellow shepherd guild member who had a superior hard working male herding dog. A breeding was agreed on , litter is born, each shepherd picks one or two pups and the rest taken to the Saturday market in wicker basket for sale. 

good and interesting conversation in this thread 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs -- proud of it


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Doc said:


> With 80+% of the people having computers in their homes or access to a computer, how do you think people "start" their research? Probably by a search on "German shepherds"? And if they want to buy a German shepherd, how would they search for that? "German shepherds puppies for sale" maybe?


yes - and people who breed for the pet market are savvy and use keywords like "old fashioned" "large" etc to draw buyers to their websites when they are breeding purely for big buck pets with non-standard breeding stock - oversized, large, coats, lacking in the working character dogs....so many out there like that....sigh..........capitolizing on the character and image of the breed, while all the while ignoring what the breed should be 

Lee


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> yes - and people who breed for the pet market are savvy and use keywords like "old fashioned" "large" etc to draw buyers to their websites when they are breeding purely for big buck pets with non-standard breeding stock - oversized, large, coats, lacking in the working character dogs....so many out there like that....sigh..........capitolizing on the character and image of the breed, while all the while ignoring what the breed should be
> 
> Lee


Yeah, much like show and "working" line breeders producing dogs that are suppose be the true German shepherd. It's a down right shame. Titled dogs that didn't earn their titles but rather were bought; judges that breed dogs and enter them into shows that they judge; a hand out behind the ring; all the unethical ways "good" dogs are promoted. Just face it, the dog world is not immune to marketing or bribery. All a breeder can do is to choose their battles wisely.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Since there have been some experienced people and experienced breeders commenting on this thread, what would your advice be to someone who wanted a GSD as a pet/companion. The person had no intention of competing or gaining any titles with the dog.
I'm just curious as to how you would advise that person because, IMO, that seems to be the majority of buyers who "look elsewhere" for their dog.

I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just curious.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

CassandGunnar said:


> Since there have been some experienced people and experienced breeders commenting on this thread, what would your advice be to someone who wanted a GSD as a pet/companion. The person had no intention of competing or gaining any titles with the dog.



1) Give serious thought and consideration to rescue. No, they don't all have emotional or behavioral issues; yes, many of them are good with kids and cats; yes, they'll bond to you just as well; no, most of them are not old and sick. In fact most of the dogs in rescue are under 2 years old. As for health, you can take a young adult through every medical test under the sun before you get to the price you'd pay for a pup from a responsible breeder. A young adult rescue that's passed his medical tests is FAR more likely to be healthy than a puppy from a byb'er. 

2) If rescue just isn't an option because you want the joys of bloody hands and sleepless nights and pee on the carpet that only a puppy can fulfill, contact a responsible breeder of any lines and be very clear with them that you're looking for a family companion. If $$$ is an issue consider a coatie or a cryptorchid.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Doc said:


> Yeah, much like show and "working" line breeders producing dogs that are suppose be the true German shepherd. It's a down right shame. Titled dogs that didn't earn their titles but rather were bought; judges that breed dogs and enter them into shows that they judge; a hand out behind the ring; all the unethical ways "good" dogs are promoted. Just face it, the dog world is not immune to marketing or bribery. All a breeder can do is to choose their battles wisely.



No system is perfect - schools pass kids through just to get them out of the population, jails release prisoners for overcrowding - so the argument that some dogs get titles that aren't earned does not hold water - sorry.....it may not be perfect, and there are dogs who get passed who should fail....but it is better than NOTHING!!! A truly weak dog will get failed, a truly nervy dog who is not conditioned to gunfire will be excused from a ring....Have seen it happen...and trial results will note a dog being failed for gunshyness....

I showed horses for years - always knew that if I won a first or second, I had earned it - LOL and there were no students or connections of the judges in the class!!! Did better under judges who were not Quarter Horse/App/Paint trainers because the Open Judges who trained gaited horses did not have connections in the class....anything judged by humans is going to be imperfect....but still....selling oversized, coated, generation after generation of BYB GSD look alikes is not IMO a breeder with integrity - it is a breeder wtih a fat wallet -

Again, Doc - what do you breed? What have you done? You are very critical of the SV system? Can your dogs pass the Sch test and koer?

Lee


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

CassandGunnar said:


> Since there have been some experienced people and experienced breeders commenting on this thread, what would your advice be to someone who wanted a GSD as a pet/companion. The person had no intention of competing or gaining any titles with the dog.
> I'm just curious as to how you would advise that person because, IMO, that seems to be the majority of buyers who "look elsewhere" for their dog.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just curious.


I wouldn't ask the question on any forum that is full of highly opinionated breeders of working line German shepherds or dominated by rescue/shelter supporters.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

opcorn:


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Doc said:


> I wouldn't ask the question on any forum that is full of highly opinionated breeders of working line German shepherds or dominated by rescue/shelter supporters.


Oh Doc....

People intermingle on here just fine. Breeders and rescue people alike.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> No system is perfect - schools pass kids through just to get them out of the population, jails release prisoners for overcrowding - so the argument that some dogs get titles that aren't earned does not hold water - sorry.....it may not be perfect, and there are dogs who get passed who should fail....but it is better than NOTHING!!! A truly weak dog will get failed, a truly nervy dog who is not conditioned to gunfire will be excused from a ring....Have seen it happen...and trial results will note a dog being failed for gunshyness....
> 
> I showed horses for years - always knew that if I won a first or second, I had earned it - LOL and there were no students or connections of the judges in the class!!! Did better under judges who were not Quarter Horse/App/Paint trainers because the Open Judges who trained gaited horses did not have connections in the class....anything judged by humans is going to be imperfect....but still....selling oversized, coated, generation after generation of BYB GSD look alikes is not IMO a breeder with integrity - it is a breeder wtih a fat wallet -
> 
> ...


I could less about showing horses. It has absolutely nothing to do with determining what constitute what a German shepherd should be. Like I said, as a breeder, you have to choose your battles. I do not think titles/awards make a dog. I focus on bloodlines, genetics, observations, interactions, listening to folks that have many years of experience and knowledge to share. I've said it before, rules, regulations, politics, greed, money, and a lack of knowledge/respect of this breed is a battle I choose not to engage in. If that makes me and my dogs unworthy, so be it. I've been called a lot worse by better people.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Doc said:


> I wouldn't ask the question on any forum that is full of highly opinionated breeders of working line German shepherds or dominated by rescue/shelter supporters.


Ok, where should it be asked? If education is part of the answer, how does soemeone give themselves the best chance to find a good dog that fits what they want. 
My question was hypothetical: We have rescued several GSD and GSD mixes. I also have some experience with "working line German Shepherds" as a Sheriff's K9 handler. (4 partners in a 25 year career)

I aked my question in an effort to maybe help someone who is looking along the lines I put in my question.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> I wouldn't ask the question on any forum that is full of highly opinionated breeders of working line German shepherds or dominated by rescue/shelter supporters.


By definition, the German Shepherd is a working dog, so if you call yourself a breeder of German Shepherds, then you are a breeder of working dogs. 

And attacking people that support rescues and shelters? This makes no sense at all. Many breeders are very involved in rescue, truly caring about the well-being of all dogs, whether they bred them themselves or not. 

Doc, tell me that you are not against rescue because that is competition for you?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted by CassandGunnar
> Since there have been some experienced people and experienced breeders commenting on this thread, what would your advice be to someone who wanted a GSD as a pet/companion. The person had no intention of competing or gaining any titles with the dog.
> I'm just curious as to how you would advise that person because, IMO, that seems to be the majority of buyers who "look elsewhere" for their dog.


That is an excellent question - there does seem to be a misconception that dogs from working line breeders are only suitable for serious competitive/work homes. But not all dogs in every litter will have the drive and attributes to do well in those endeavors, and will be better suited to an active pet home. Many breeders of working dogs have not lost sight of the fact that first and foremost, the dogs need to be good pets and companions in order to integrate and succeed in their new homes, and they strive to produce a well balanced, well rounded dog. 

Manny of the dogs from my breeder are in pet homes - people might dabble in activities like agility, obedience, herding, or Shutzhund (guilty!), but first and foremost, they are family members, and loved companions. I woudn't be taken aback by a website that shows the dogs doing protection work, or lists past dogs that have gone on to Law Enforcement or other work environments - there can be good pet-quality dogs available, and you are supporting a breeder that still maintains sight of what a GSD is supposed to be by actually breeding dogs to do what GSDs are supposed to do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Doc said:


> I wouldn't ask the question on any forum that is full of highly opinionated breeders of working line German shepherds or dominated by rescue/shelter supporters.


My goodness...if you hate everyone on this board so much, why do you stick around? Since you won't put your dogs out for everyone to see, who do you think you are criticizing all the other breeders on this board that don't hide behind a screen name and insults?


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

I advertise on Kiji which was purchased by Ebay 6-9 months ago. does this say that my breeding practices are bad cause I choose to advertise there? I think you have to look at how many pups are on grounds and how many litters they have a year to determine anything.

Jane, not all my pups are reserved before they hit the ground and to rely just on a web site or referrals would be great but doesn't happen all the time and as much as it costs to raise a litter all of us breeder would love for them to have homes when they turn 8 weeks old. but in all reality we have pups here after 8 weeks of age. And for all you calling a breeder a BYB or a puppy mill just cause they advertise their pups is a crock of S***. I don't put my pups in a home just cause the client has the ole mighty dollar, but I do check out my clients before the pup goes to them or deposit is put down on the pup.

Now taking deposits for pups before they are confirmed is just setting yourselves up for failure. I have had deposits held ransom before and since I didn't like that practice why would I do the same to my clients. I only take 2 deposits once litter is confirmed due to not knowing what you have as to sex of the pups that are n.ot born yet.

What I have a problem with is that there are forums like this one that are so quick to judge a breeder before they know about the breeders practices and just judging a breeder by how they advertise their pups.

But instead you have a policy here that doesn't allow bad breeders to be called out so they exist on forums just like this one


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

CassandGunnar said:


> Since there have been some experienced people and experienced breeders commenting on this thread, what would your advice be to someone who wanted a GSD as a pet/companion. The person had no intention of competing or gaining any titles with the dog.
> I'm just curious as to how you would advise that person because, IMO, that seems to be the majority of buyers who "look elsewhere" for their dog.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just curious.


Find out who is in your area--within driving distance. Talk to them on the phone for a while and ask about their dogs, their breeding plans, their contract/guarantee, their prices, their health checking policies and what sort of training and socializing they dog with their dogs and their new puppies. Ask questions. Ask about health clearances and validate what you're told (go to OFFA.org, for example, and look up the names of dogs who are supposed to be OFA Good). 

Then go visit their dogs and make sure you like them in person. Find out if what they're saying agrees with what you're seeing when you meet the dogs. If you don't like the dogs--how they are kept or their looks or temperament or how they interact with the you or your kids or the breeder--then say "thank you for your time" and start over again. 

If you don't like the parents, then you should not consider the puppies. The dogs a breeder keeps for breeding are going to be what they like, those dogs are going to represent what the breeder is striving for. They may not all be alike, but they should all represent some facet of what that breeder is about. 

If you do like the breeder's dogs, then ask about their puppies, when they will have some, and will any be available. See if you are asked to describe what sort of puppy you want and what you want to do with it. 

You can get a good puppy from someone who isn't local, but if you're just starting out, it helps to get the feel for the dogs themselves. If you can't go see a breeder's dogs, then at the least spend time on the phone and make sure you are comfortable with the breeder's vision for their dogs--do they admire the same qualities that you do? Do they blow a lot of smoke so you don't get real answers? Are they just telling you that their dogs are the "BEST!"? Or do they seem to have a real idea of who their dogs are and what their puppies will be like?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

CassandGunnar said:


> Since there have been some experienced people and experienced breeders commenting on this thread, what would your advice be to someone who wanted a GSD as a pet/companion. The person had no intention of competing or gaining any titles with the dog.
> I'm just curious as to how you would advise that person because, IMO, that seems to be the majority of buyers who "look elsewhere" for their dog.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just curious.


One hopes that a family companion will enjoy the home and family for over ten years, hopefully 12-14 years. One hopes the dog will be able to be a full member of the home and able enjoy company, outtings, parties, etc. One hopes the puppy will be a good representative of the breed, and relatively healthy. 

All of this is pretty much a crap shoot. You can get a puppy for thousands of dollars that drops dead, and you can rescue a stray that lives 14 years. But when you go to purchase a companion, I would invest the money to get one from someone who cares about the breed, about their dogs, and has put their money where their mouth is by testing their breeding stock, both for common genetic conditions, and for training/temperament.

If you take the cost and spread it over ten years, is it really that much for a good companion animal? Is it that much for supporting breeders who are going about things right, rather than putting two pets together and selling the progeny for a couple of hundred dollars?

I know this will not be popular, but I find that people who are willing to pay a decent price for a puppy are a lot more realistic about what it is to OWN a puppy. People who spend very little, try to get a bargain, gripe about the cost, are the first ones to call and complain about every time the pup sneezes or growls. They are the first ones to say -- puppy mill or BYB! They are the last ones to enroll in training, and they blame behavior from lack of training on the breeders.

Many people who buy a thing for a song, do not value that thing as they would if they would have paid a decent amount for it. 

And lastly, just because you do not want all the bells and whistles, if it has them, why should you pay less because you really did not want them? I mean, if your dog has been bred and is show quality or schutzhund competition quality, but you do not want to do that, then it does not make the dog worth less money. If you do not want all the bells and whistles, it is far better to go to a rescue and pay those who are trying to clean up the mess of people who couldn't be bothered taking care of their dogs, than to perpetuate the cycle of people deliberately breeding dogs of less quality.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> By definition, the German Shepherd is a working dog, so if you call yourself a breeder of German Shepherds, then you are a breeder of working dogs.
> 
> And attacking people that support rescues and shelters? This makes no sense at all. Many breeders are very involved in rescue, truly caring about the well-being of all dogs, whether they bred them themselves or not.
> 
> Doc, tell me that you are not against rescue because that is competition for you?


I am not against rescues at all. I've even tried to pull rescue dogs before their time was up. I would happily foster a German shepherd that is not schizo or psycho. No problem at all with rescues. I never said a German shepherd wasn't a working dog.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> My goodness...if you hate everyone on this board so much, why do you stick around? Since you won't put your dogs out for everyone to see, who do you think you are criticizing all the other breeders on this board that don't hide behind a screen name and insults?


I am sorry if you missed one of my dogs that i posted in here. Everyone else saw him - and a few breeders in here made a few positive comments about him. Imagine that. I am not hiding behind a screen name. I am a Doctor and people call me doc all the time, among other things. :crazy:
I'm not near as critical to others as they are to the breeders that challenge their mindset!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Since there have been some experienced people and experienced breeders commenting on this thread, what would your advice be to someone who wanted a GSD as a pet/companion. The person had no intention of competing or gaining any titles with the dog.


I'm among those whose dogs are companions. Christine/Blackthorn's response to the question is (IMO) among the best I've seen.

While I have a preference for some of the over sized companion lines, that's a purely personal preference. There are WL & SL GS that make wonderful companions but be certain any breeder of interest consistently produces GS with the qualities essential to your situation. A breeder whose GS don't ordinarily live as family members, or whose dogs require extreme management, can't be certain their dogs are suited to families.

Anyone seeking out a pup should assess what they need, want & expect from their dog as well as what they'll provide. Get the relevant info. Carefully think it through & make your own decision as to what is best for you & your family. It's a matter too important to be given over to others regardless of how well intentioned they are.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I agree with Christine. Go out and visit breeders and their dogs. The way it was done before the internet was invented and people became lazy.

When I got my first GSD I actually went and visited breeders in the state and their dogs. I would spend hours interacting with GSD. I had done a lot of research on the breed and thought I had a pretty good idea about what I was looking for. I also followed my gut. I avoided litters where the mother or any of the pups were shy. 

Funny, my first GSD was from SchH titled dogs from a breeder with great knowledge and a great mentor of her own. She also had a back yard so maybe she was a byb?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Doc said:


> I am sorry if you missed one of my dogs that i posted in here. Everyone else saw him - and a few breeders in here made a few positive comments about him. Imagine that. I am not hiding behind a screen name. I am a Doctor and people call me doc all the time, among other things. :crazy:
> I'm not near as critical to others as they are to the breeders that challenge their mindset!


Apparently everyone didn't see him but I don't follow the vast majority of your posts. So why don't you list your website like the other breeders on here? Since you feel justified in shooting off comments about the working line breeders here and the rescues.

A doctor of what? I doubt that is on your birth certificate, you've repeatedly refused to 'expose' your breeding program (other than the one dog), then you ARE hiding behind a moniker.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not think that any breeder should be required to reveal their website or any other information about themselves, more than any other poster. 

We have people that have never bred a litter, but can make the nastiest comments about care, about conditions, about what or what they would or wouldn't do. Maybe we should tell them to put their money where there mouthes are, and breed a litter or several litters and then maybe they would know what they are talking about. 

And not all breeders have web sites. Doesn't make them bad breeders.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Doc, I'm glad you are on the same page as everyone else! The post I quoted from you was very confusing, so I'm glad you clarified. 

I think I remember the dog you posted for critique - that was your blue stud, right? Carries the white masking gene. He did have a lovely and kind expression, but don't know enough to comment on his structure, . 

And yes, technically, people with Phd's can refer to themselves as Doctor, even if they are not medical doctors. I like the nickname Doc.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Apparently everyone didn't see him but I don't follow the vast majority of your posts. So why don't you list your website like the other breeders on here? Since you feel justified in shooting off comments about the working line breeders here and the rescues.
> 
> A doctor of what? I doubt that is on your birth certificate, you've repeatedly refused to 'expose' your breeding program (other than the one dog), then you ARE hiding behind a moniker.


You follow enough of my post to always have some comment to make about them. The reason why my web-site isn't posted in here has been explained before. 
No, I do not know of anyone that named their child "Doc", unless maybe Doc Holiday? I got my title the old fashion way, hard work and perseverance. I have also taught at the university level in several major universities.
For the record, how many litters of working line German shepherds have you bred? After all, this thread was about breeders advertising on Ebay, kiji and the like - not a thread to question my name, kennel, or dogs.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Doc, I'm glad you are on the same page as everyone else! The post I quoted from you was very confusing, so I'm glad you clarified.
> 
> I think I remember the dog you posted for critique - that was your blue stud, right? Carries the white masking gene. He did have a lovely and kind expression, but don't know enough to comment on his structure, .
> 
> And yes, technically, people with Phd's can refer to themselves as Doctor, even if they are not medical doctors. I like the nickname Doc.


Lucia
I am sorry but, like a lot of flaky old professors, I do have a tendency to ramble. 
I posted a bi color black/tan stud dog a few months ago that has the white spotting gene and line bred on Neumann's Jim. He had an altercation with a littler mate so his tail is little thin at one spot. LOL


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'd love to see your bi-colour! Not a common pattern outside of the working lines. 

I thought this was your dog? People are saying some good things about him in this thread. I did not find your thread about the bi-colour, maybe you posted in someone elses's thread? 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/137389-thoughts-dog.html


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I remember seeing Doc's new boy. Handsome guy indeed, with some nice old American lines in there.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Doc said:


> You follow enough of my post to always have some comment to make about them. The reason why my web-site isn't posted in here has been explained before.
> ...
> For the record, how many litters of working line German shepherds have you bred? After all, this thread was about breeders advertising on Ebay, kiji and the like - not a thread to question my name, kennel, or dogs.


I do? Guess I'll have to look. I remember asking you a question once where you went off the wall and got nasty but that was about it. Well...I'll make sure this is my last then. :crazy:

None. Never want to be a breeder. Huge pet peeve of mine for one professional to trash another but refuse to show what they have. That goes for any profession. Your post that I commented on here just oozes hatred and disgust for the breeders and rescues on this board.

That's right. This thread was about advertising. However, you are the one that then moved on to making the comments about working line breeders and rescues. If you want to keep the topic to the original post, then don't take it off topic.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I do? Guess I'll have to look. I remember asking you a question once where you went off the wall and got nasty but that was about it. Well...I'll make sure this is my last then. :crazy:
> 
> None. Never want to be a breeder. Huge pet peeve of mine for one professional to trash another but refuse to show what they have. That goes for any profession. Your post that I commented on here just oozes hatred and disgust for the breeders and rescues on this board.
> 
> That's right. This thread was about advertising. However, you are the one that then moved on to making the comments about working line breeders and rescues. If you want to keep the topic to the original post, then don't take it off topic.


I'm not so sure I took it off topic. I just made some general statements about advertising German shepherds - how ever one wants to classify them - in certain venues. 

Thanks Chris. And Lucia, I was asking about the dog in your post. As a breeder I am always looking at dogs and what they lack or can contribute in a breeding.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I agree with Christine. Go out and visit breeders and their dogs.


Absolutely! One of the things I liked when I visited Djibouti's breeder many years ago was her obvious affection for a 12 or 13 yr old bitch with DM. I liked that she didn't hide her, didn't pretend she'd never had a dog with DM & was letting her live out her life to its fullest. That put a big check mark in the trust column which is important to me.

Declining to provide info on one's breeding program is a personal decision, neither more nor less. 'Refuse to expose'??? Wellll, it *is* a family oriented site. We're barely allowed to post words like heck & darn. His refusal to expose himself is all in good taste & appropriate to the site. JMO.

Though I certainly do agree with you Jax on the Doc part. Clearly there's low scheming trickery behind that moniker! *blush*...In the interest of full disclosure I must admit I'm not a rare & valuable gem. Nor am I a god. In fact I'm scarcely a peasant. I'd like to take this opportunity to fall on the mercy of this board. I honestly had no idea these user names were of such importance! Truly, I meant no deceit. (Unlike Doc, I'm sure...)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Doc said:


> I could less about showing horses. It has absolutely nothing to do with determining what constitute what a German shepherd should be. Like I said, as a breeder, you have to choose your battles. I do not think titles/awards make a dog. I focus on bloodlines, genetics, observations, interactions, listening to folks that have many years of experience and knowledge to share. I've said it before, rules, regulations, politics, greed, money, and a lack of knowledge/respect of this breed is a battle I choose not to engage in. If that makes me and my dogs unworthy, so be it. I've been called a lot worse by better people.



Sorry to bore you Doc....but I was using that as an example that politics is everywhere. I have not insulted you or ridiculed you - but you certainly snipe and make derogatory comments about many people with whom you do not apparently agree. You offer nothing positive.

If you "choose not to engage" - then why bother reading - you certainly do not contribute anything constructive - especially as anything you say is questionable because you choose not to make public what it is you actually have and breed. What lines do you have experience with? What accomplishments are giving you the experience to form an opinion??? 

So - will just skim past your posts as they offer nothing substantial or positive.

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would love to hear of Doc's experiences and knowledge of the old kennels that he writes of...but he never tells anything other than how old and experienced he is....


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> My point is most good breeders really don't need to advertise. Word of mouth and their reputation will sell their puppies before they are even whelped.
> When you sell live animals on a generic site like ebay, it just makes me wonder why they have to? Usually the people that buy from these sites are ones that haven't done enough research to look at individual kennels, lines,etc. They just want a certain breed and hit the google links.



Oh come on. Please. Every breeder has to market his dogs. Give them a break already. Just because they are advertising and marketing doesn't make them bad breeders. 

How do you think all those big names German Kennels sell their pups to the US? Not just because it's word to mouth but because they have marketing strategies and use the internet as a tool. 

If I had a litter down I'd use the internet too. I'd be stupid if I sat at home wait for the phone to ring. Of course you want to sell your pups. You want to give them the best possible homes but you won't find those homes by sitting at home doing nothing at all!

What do you think this forum is? It's MARKETING for some of the breeders on here. I don't even want to know how many litters were sold only because the breeders on here are present every day, post pictures and videos. THIS FORUM ALONE is a HUUUGE Marketing tool for two or three kennel names on here. 

It's not any different from ebays. It's a better disguise though!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> This is a myth. A good breeder with good networking skills may have this be the case. But not having a litter pre-sold does mean it's not a good litter from a good breeder.
> 
> I've had times when I've had 4 females pre-sold and have a litter of 7 males, for example. I've had buyers back out the day they were supposed to pick up their pup--and many other scenarios are also not unusual.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Mrs. K, my post was written about ebay listings, not advertising in general. If you look at most of the ads there, it is toy breeds/purse-dogs and puppy mill type breeders. Sure there may be great breeders advertising there when you weed thru it all, and maybe if more did the tone of the place would be different. As of now, the company they're in is the mill/mass producers who are anonymus types. 
As posted before, I am in total agreement to go out and visit training clubs, see the dogs in person instead of clicking on a website to purchase a puppy. If a breeder is breeding a litter without some reserves on their prospective pups, then I guess they have to do what they have to do to sell the rest of the litter. 
I do know that pups need to be placed carefully with good matches. I hope the litter listed in this thread topic will be.


> A good breeder with good networking skills may have this be the case. But not having a litter pre-sold does mean it's not a good litter from a good breeder


 I don't think I ever said this....but how many of you breeders have a few people interested in an upcoming litter before whelp? I would think that would be the norm.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think I ever said this....but how many of you breeders have a few people interested in an upcoming litter before whelp? I would think that would be the norm.


I often have people interested, but that's a far cry from having a whole litter pre-sold.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Ditto here...
Example: Have a puppy person needing to replace her deceased Service Dog.
She is completely wheel chair bound, and the dog *must *help her in the daily functions.
We had 2 litters come, BEFORE the "special" puppy was available. She waited with us, because she knew that we would make sure to "fit" her with the "proper" puppy. 
A waiting list...does not mean....a list of puppies sold.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I cannot believe I missed a fun rumble with Doc! Clearly I have got to stop working so much and spend more time on the boards!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> A waiting list...does not mean....a list of puppies sold


 I think Wayne can attest to this. 
I know that well, too. I was on a reserve list for a pup and wanted a male, only two males were born in the litter. 
I wasn't sure there would be a pup for me, the match is _very_ important, and had there not been one, I'd be waiting for another breeding...luckily I was able to get one of the male pups~waiting is worth it but torture while you wait!!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Ok so the argument is that ad forums (ebay etc) are bad places to advertise because good breeders don't advertise there. But good breeders should never advertise there because those are bad places to advertise.

JQP should compare and visit good reputable breeders, but they don't know where to look for them. Why? Because it is "wrong" for a reputable breeder to advertise in any of the places that would be easily accessible to a first time owner.

Ebay should not allow advertising of dogs in their classified section because it promotes BYB and puppymills. The argument was made that there were no good breeders there to give any hope for someone to get a good dog. But here, the good breeder (theoretically good as I don't know about them) is immediately written off just for the fact that they have an ad there.
It just seems a very roundabout argument to me.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Damned if you do.:nono:...damned if you don't..:nono:........:shrug:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So when people ask for references to breeders, we can just point them to ebay!! Easy peasy


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

When people ask where to _"look"_ for possible breeders, or litters available (especially in their immediate area) ....the "classifieds" of any place does not need/should be excluded.
When someone asks for a breeder "referral"....that is different situation...and the reply is usually "by personal experience".


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Wow I had no idea that the type of breeder you are is judged by where you advertise your litters. I have seen all types of breeders post on online classifieds like hoobly/kijiji/puppy find/terrific pets/etc. I base my opinion on the actual breeder's program (or lack of one) rather than where they advertise.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I have advertised my litters on various internet sites. I have actually found some of my favorite pet homes through internet classifieds - really wonderful pet owners that otherwise wouldn't have found the puppy they got from me. If homes are being screened, I see no harm in advertising where ever you can when you have puppies available. I have turned down people who contacted me from internet ads and I have turned down people who were referred to me by word of mouth. If the home isn't right, it isn't right. I also recommend a good deal of people who contact me to rescue, either breed specific or their local shelter, if they seem like they'd just as soon take an adult or a mixed breed with the same general look. It really is very short sighted to judge breeders not on the merit of their dogs but on where they advertise available puppies. 

FWIW it takes quite awhile for one to establish themselves to the point where they need to do no advertising and always have people wanting puppies from them. And part of the process to become established in that manner involves breeding quality dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have seen some "breeders" recommended on this forum that offered GSD that were flat top old fashioned 100 - 130 lb dogs - and another that provided paypal and an easy 3 step application to buy the dog -- plus the poor dogs they showed looked rather tired and worn out.
No matter where you find the dog advertised or recommended it still comes down to doing your homework and insisting on high standards .
Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I have seen some "breeders" recommended on this forum that offered GSD that were flat top old fashioned 100 - 130 lb dogs - and another that provided paypal and an easy 3 step application to buy the dog -- plus the poor dogs they showed looked rather tired and worn out.
> *No matter where you find the dog advertised or recommended it still comes down to doing your homework and insisting on high standards .*
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I think this needs to be said again.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I know quite a few very good breeders that have their litters spoken for or a extra long wait list before the pups hit the ground.. Granted these breeders are only producing 1 or 2 litters a year. 

These breeders are sought after by word of mouth and maybe the fact too that they are the ones that are out there training and trialing/showing their dogs for the world to see.. Dogs that are doing LE, SchH, AKC ob, SAR, etc..

They have no need to advertise in the classifieds, on the database or even in magazines, etc.. They've established their own reputation through people seeing their dogs work..


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

G-burg, I know a few breeders like that also, but there are only a few, so what do the other hundreds of people that want a GS do. Also, in all fairness, people like those really aren't interested in their dog going to just a home...they usually have them reserved for people who have work/sport activities or show.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...whatever but that does not mean that they are the only good breeders out there. And just because your breeder did it one way does not make them the only good breeder . Thankfully. After a while the name just sells the dog And not having your dogs name in your signature line does not mean that you are not proud of your dog


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

This whole tangent to the conversation baffles me. What does it matter how or where a breeder advertises? It doesn't! One person's situation, geographic location, website saviness, or anything else isn't the same as someone else's. What matters is that the breeder produces good dogs, screens buyers and places them in suitable homes. How breeder and potential buyer first found one another doesn't make a bit of difference.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> G-burg, I know a few breeders like that also, but there are only a few, so what do the other hundreds of people that want a GS do.


I guess like others have said (and you too) over and over and over and over, go out to the events (and I'm not just talking SchH), see the dogs that are there, talk to the people involved..

A lot more of the general public are going the rescue route now a days. I can say 95% of people that come in for training with us have a rescued dog, purebred or not.. And that's all they will do is rescue..


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

I think that since advertising in a wide variety of ways, not only word of mouth, would invite more inquiries for the pups, more potential owners could be screened and breeders could be choosier about where the pups go.
Plenty of people will look on eBay and other classifieds to begin their search and it doesn't mean they don't offer great homes for a pup or want to find a good breeder vs. cheap BYBs. Just my opinion---


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> This whole tangent to the conversation baffles me. What does it matter how or where a breeder advertises? It doesn't! One person's situation, geographic location, website saviness, or anything else isn't the same as someone else's. What matters is that the breeder produces good dogs, screens buyers and places them in suitable homes. How breeder and potential buyer first found one another doesn't make a bit of difference.


Thank you, Chris. I would like to call the question ...


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> This whole tangent to the conversation baffles me. What does it matter how or where a breeder advertises? It doesn't! One person's situation, geographic location, website saviness, or anything else isn't the same as someone else's. *What matters is that the breeder produces good dogs, screens buyers and places them in suitable homes. How breeder and potential buyer first found one another doesn't make a bit of difference.*


Agreed.


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> This whole tangent to the conversation baffles me. What does it matter how or where a breeder advertises? It doesn't! One person's situation, geographic location, website saviness, or anything else isn't the same as someone else's. What matters is that the breeder produces good dogs, screens buyers and places them in suitable homes. How breeder and potential buyer first found one another doesn't make a bit of difference.


This is exactly what I have been saying, don't discount a breeder which advertises their pups on Kiji. Just cause they do doesn't make them a bad breeder, but a breeder that puts their pups out there to have a better chance to find the correct home for where their pups go.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

one more comment about the waiting lists.
If you only have one to two litters per year it is harder to maintain a waiting list . The wait can be too long and people want to get on with their lives . I have had people wait 18 months . 
When you have several litters , lots of puppies it is easier to accumulate a waiting list because you have a better chance of "filling the order" . The wait might be the very next litter, or the litter which is already born and somewhat staggered in being able to be sent home. 
So a waiting list is not an indicator for quality either. We saw that also on one of the dubious web sites provided , a healthy waiting list for dogs that are basically cash crops.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

NarysDad said:


> This is exactly what I have been saying, don't discount a breeder which advertises their pups on Kiji. Just cause they do doesn't make them a bad breeder, but a breeder that puts their pups out there to have a better chance to find the correct home for where their pups go.


I actually know of a good breeder in Canada who had an unexpectedly huge litter of 12 puppies. She did not have 12 buyers lined up, and at 11 weeks old, she has had to resort to Kijiji. She is still screening her buyers the same way she would normally, but this way she has a wider pool of potential buyers.

Maybe the really big name breeders can have 20 or 30 people on waiting lists, but hobby breeders have to support their breeding program somehow, and that means selling puppies.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

G-burg, I agree wholeheartedly that newbies owe it to themselves to go out and see the different dogs out there and then make an informed decision.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

carmspack said:


> one more comment about the waiting lists.
> If you only have one to two litters per year it is harder to maintain a waiting list . The wait can be too long and people want to get on with their lives . I have had people wait 18 months .
> When you have several litters , lots of puppies it is easier to accumulate a waiting list because you have a better chance of "filling the order" . The wait might be the very next litter, or the litter which is already born and somewhat staggered in being able to be sent home.
> So a waiting list is not an indicator for quality either. We saw that also on one of the dubious web sites provided , a healthy waiting list for dogs that are basically cash crops.
> ...


My last litter was in May of 2009 - and before that July 2008 - I have had plenty of people "waiting" but waiting gets old and alot of them did not want to wait 2 years! I have helped a few get pups, and a few (who see some of my dogs train/compete) are still waiting...do I have a list? Of course - but the list is just a starting point - lives change, economics change and maybe I just won't have the right pup for the person....I am at the point I don't even want to take names until I KNOW there are pups on the way ....

Some of the most popular breeders out there are listed on every online puppy site - and in Dog World every month....sorry folks, but while breeding is a passion, it is also a business - no one can keep every puppy. Advertising takes many many many forms....

Lee


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## GSDgirl03 (Sep 7, 2011)

Funny I found this on the forum. This was my mother's ad for her litter last year. She didn't know where to advertise the litter so advertised here, and yes she got a lot of people she would never sell her puppies to. This was her first litter and she wanted to start with the best bloodlines she could find. I took one of the puppies as most of them had very good drives and work ethic. She meant no harm by advertising here. She welcomes all people serious about a puppy to visit.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

holland said:


> Word of mouth is advertising. Advertising is also having a website and having your kennel name in your signature line. And then there is just straightforward advertising which isn't allowed on here-cause good breeders don't do that they have their puppies sold before they are whelped


 I wonder why German Breeders, big and successful kennelnames have to advertise their litters on American Websites and/or German websites to get rid of their puppies. 

Every breeder advertises and word of mouth, in this economy is just not enough anymore.


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