# HELP with my dog's drive/protection



## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

Just had an evaluation on my 2yo male for potential with protection training. He has a great prey drive but couldn't care less about a ball/toy as a reward. From observing other handlers and their dogs I have noticed that the dogs often go KOOKOOO nuts for the tug toy or ball on a rope. Will the lack of this be an issue for me?
-any way to build this drive?
-tips on training
-i am trying to get him interested in the tug so am spending countless time playing with that.
any tips or recommendations are welcome


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would work with the club and other handlers, or their TD for advice on your boy. They see him first hand, and can be more effective in giving advice on his individual needs.
Backtying can benefit the need to possess and tug...though I would work with someone experienced to help you with that as well(especially for a maturing structure).


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

What does your dog like? 
Constantly playing with something the dog isn't into is just going to make it not like it more. There is a method to the madness. 
I agree, work with a club and see what they want you to do. No interest in balls/tugs is ok. There are other motivators, you just need to find what works for your dog.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

at home, a flirt pole. it's got many uses but in your case will increase your dogs interest in the toy/tug/rag... he catches it, you grab it, let him win often at the slightest bit of resistance... increase duration until you're tugging.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Flirt pole is a good idea. Another thing that works is for me to fuss over the object and not offer it to the dog. Maybe toss it back and forth between the humans a few times -- just fuss over the darned thing like it's a pot of gold but fragile.


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## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

My dog is motivated by treats for sure! I've been working with a tug the past couple of nights and his interest is improving.
-He will be working with another handler/their dog who is very motivated on saturday with my trainer. CROSSED FINGERS he copies!

ill try and keep you all updated but i am very dedicated to improving my bong with Ruger and whether it be this or something else we will surely continue to work at it hard!


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

jaudlee said:


> Just had an evaluation on my 2yo male for potential with protection training. He has a great prey drive but couldn't care less about a ball/toy as a reward. From observing other handlers and their dogs I have noticed that the dogs often go KOOKOOO nuts for the tug toy or ball on a rope. Will the lack of this be an issue for me?
> -any way to build this drive?
> -tips on training
> -i am trying to get him interested in the tug so am spending countless time playing with that.
> any tips or recommendations are welcome


My dog's being evaluated for personal protection training in two weeks.
He is 13 months old.
When he was evaluated at 5 months, the trainer noticed that he didn't have much of a ball drive and said to try and get him to be interested in playing with a ball to create ball drive.

He loves anything that squeaks so I got him the large size Kong tennis balls. They squeak!! And that got him on the road to loving 2 ball fetch and playing any game that involved those balls. When I hide them, he goes crazy looking for them. So if he doesn't qualify for protection, I'm thinkin he might do ok at nose work : )
good luck. I'd be interested hear how your dog does at his evaluation.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

A dog doesn't need "ball drive" for protection work. They are not related.


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## CrackedGSD (Sep 8, 2015)

prey drive is important for the IPO protection phase


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

jaudlee. A while back I started this thread: *Ball Drive. Why is it so important?
*You might be interested in reading it. There's a lot of back and forth conversations between people who seem very knowledgeable about drives and how they relate to training/work/ and sport.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

What purpose does the ball serve? What is it used for? When was the last time you saw a helper/decoy catch a dog with a ball? I'm not against using a ball for certain things with a dog that likes it, but there are other methods out there. Just because a dog doesn't like a ball, doesn't mean it can't work. It also doesn't mean you have to force it to like it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

:thumbup: mycobraracr.


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## CrackedGSD (Sep 8, 2015)

defense?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Yes, there is prey, defense and all the other subcategories that go along with them. This still doesn't answer the question, "what does a ball have to do with protection?". It makes me sad that "trainers" are evaluating a dog for protection work with a ball.


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## CrackedGSD (Sep 8, 2015)

doesn't sound like a trainer was doing any evaluating. it sounds like the op is just worried about what he sees in his dog. a dog that lacks that drive compared to the crazy dogs he's seeming at training. makes sense and would make me worry if my dog wouldn't take a tug or a ball and i expect the dog to then go and bite a sleeve.


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## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> Yes, there is prey, defense and all the other subcategories that go along with them. This still doesn't answer the question, "what does a ball have to do with protection?". It makes me sad that "trainers" are evaluating a dog for protection work with a ball.



I am new to this for sure. I was talking about how I see handlers reward their dog after performing the bite/protection exercise with a toy such as a ball on a rope. He has never been interested in toys or the tugs which makes me curious as to whether or not his lack of interest will hinder him from having the drive to bite the sleeve/tug provided with training. I guess I will find out more tomorrow in my meeting, but in the mean time I have been trying my best to get him interested in tugging games with me and I have seen quite an improvement in just a few days. I will keep everyone posted. Be easy as I am a newbie at this haha I appreciate all the comments because it helps me to see others' experiences with the subject matter


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## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

CrackedGSD said:


> doesn't sound like a trainer was doing any evaluating. it sounds like the op is just worried about what he sees in his dog. a dog that lacks that drive compared to the crazy dogs he's seeming at training. makes sense and would make me worry if my dog wouldn't take a tug or a ball and i expect the dog to then go and bite a sleeve.


:thumbup: :thumbup: exactamundo!


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## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

Findlay said:


> jaudlee. A while back I started this thread: *Ball Drive. Why is it so important?
> *You might be interested in reading it. There's a lot of back and forth conversations between people who seem very knowledgeable about drives and how they relate to training/work/ and sport.



I will surely take a look at that thread before tomorrow


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## CrackedGSD (Sep 8, 2015)

how old is your dog? when did you start any kind of protection or competitive obedience training?


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## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

CrackedGSD said:


> how old is your dog? when did you start any kind of protection or competitive obedience training?


He is 2y.o

-he did obedience training from 4mos-18mos. Now I have decided to get him involved into higher/more advanced obedience.

-he has never done any kind of protection training before as he has just matured.

-If protection training will not work out I will find something else he can get involved in to keep our bond growing ever closer.


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## CrackedGSD (Sep 8, 2015)

dog will probably be fine in protection. secondary obedience (obedience when helper is on field) will be an issue, but it always is with new handlers and when you start a dog later in its life. the more advanced handlers have taught their dog that a tug/ball is just as great or even better reward than biting the helper/sleeve. so the dog will take that as a reward. in your case, many of the rewards will more than likely come from the helper so you will have a more difficult time controlling your dog. not a big deal, everyone goes through it. enjoy your first experience in the sport!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

https://youtu.be/kLK6ogh2ZCM This dog is under two. No ball, no tug, no toy of any type. Not even any type of correctional device. No screaming commands. Just a fur saver, harness, tab and a bond with some clear training mixed in. 

If people spent as much time working on a bond with their dogs as they do trying to get there dogs to like a certain toy or respect a certain collar/tool, then I think they would get a lot further. In no way shape or form should a dog enjoy a toy more than fighting a man. I understand this is the IPO section, but any real world application of that thinking is what gets people killed.


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## CrackedGSD (Sep 8, 2015)

are you selling that dog to the police department? or do you need your own her as a personal protection dog for some reason? just wondering why you believe people will be killed if a dog is trained for IPO rather than some different way?

that is also more than likely a dog that has been raised from 8 weeks with sport in mind, not a dog that is just starting at around a year old with an inexperienced handler. two completely different things and it's highly unlikely an older dog will ever be able to reach that level of control with a novice handler.

a toy is used most often because it is the easiest way to teach a handler to interact with their dog without conflict.

ive noticed recently from surfing this forum and following facebook threads, the people that claim their dogs are "real" are just making that statement to feel better about the fact that their dogs can't score high or trial at all, the claim doesn't ever have to be proven because 99.99% of the time their dog they train for sport will never be tested in a real life or death situation. so its easier to just make the claim of "real" dog when you never have to prove it, rather than high scoring sport dog because that can easily be tested by an entry in a trial.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

CrackedGSD said:


> are you selling that dog to the police department? or do you need your own her as a personal protection dog for some reason? just wondering why you believe people will be killed if a dog is trained for IPO rather than some different way?
> 
> that is also more than likely a dog that has been raised from 8 weeks with sport in mind, not a dog that is just starting at around a year old with an inexperienced handler. two completely different things and it's highly unlikely an older dog will ever be able to reach that level of control with a novice handler.
> 
> ...



No that dog is not for sale. Well not officially any way. None of the offers I have got for her have been high enough for me to sell her. Too much emotional attachment. Yes she is being trained as a PPD. Do I need one? I won't know until the time comes. I just don't believe in training for a game. That's not why I got into dogs. 

Why do I think too much emphasis on a ball will get people killed? Because it happens. There is a reason LE is moving away from this line of training. Companies are losing their training contracts over this. Ever seen a dog not engage because it was more worried about where the reward was? I have. If a dog views the toy as equal value to the man then then why should it work so hard to get the man? All the emphasis on this type of work is producing dogs unsuitable for the work. 

Using a ball is not the easiest way to teach a novice handler. Using a ball correctly requires a lot of coordination and timing. Something many new handlers just don't have. That's why there are so many training videos and seminars on nothing but using a ball correctly. The issue is, that many people don't know how to teach anything any other way. Again, I'm not 100% against the ball. I use one for lots of things and with dogs who already have that desire for it. My problem is with trainers and people thinking that they must have ball drive to train anything. Like I said ball drive has nothing to do with protection work. I refuse to call IPO's 'c' phase protection anymore. 

I'm not sure what you're implying in the last paragraph. I compete in three different protection sports, an obedience venue as well as agility with the same dogs. The dog in that video is under two with four titles in two different protection sports. Her lowest score to date is an 89. I don't train patterns or show her every little thing she will see on trial day. Just like in the real world, you never know what you're going to come across. That video was a horrible video of her. I hadn't posted it anywhere because of that. That is a low level of control for her and her positions sucked! I only posted it to show the "no ball" aspect.


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## CrackedGSD (Sep 8, 2015)

i just find it interesting when people that train their dogs primarily as a sport dog, call out others and their methods of training their own sport dogs. end of the day, no matter how many scenarios you set up while training for the various protection sports, they're still scenarios and don't tell you 100% how your dog will react in a real situation.

the idea of blaming the ball or tug for a handful of dogs that don't engage...well that's just flawed logic. hundreds and thousands of police dogs all over the world are trained with toys and have no issue engaging. using an outlier to try to prove your point, well that just isn't logical. as someone who trains dogs you should have a better understanding of how many different issues could've come up that caused the dog not to engage. blaming it on a ball just simply sounds like an excuse by a trainer that doesn't want to admit another part of their program is flawed, or a police officer wanting to blame something other than himself or his dog.

just wondering what titles your dog has? ive been involved in various dog sports and I don't know any that hand out titles with scores that are less than 100. for instance, IPO titles are out of 300 and 240 is the minimum. i believe most other sports take out tracking so the scores are just simply out of 200.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

jaudlee said:


> Just had an evaluation on my 2yo male for potential with protection training. He has a great prey drive but couldn't care less about a ball/toy as a reward. From observing other handlers and their dogs I have noticed that the dogs often go KOOKOOO nuts for the tug toy or ball on a rope. Will the lack of this be an issue for me?
> -any way to build this drive?
> -tips on training
> -i am trying to get him interested in the tug so am spending countless time playing with that.
> any tips or recommendations are welcome


jaudlee. I was drawn to your thread and wanted to follow it because you and I are _considering_ PP training for our dogs. But I think I caused your thread to take a U turn. And here's where I think it happened:
I mentioned that at 5 months old my dog was evaluated by a trainer. He evaluates all dogs before theybegin* basic obedience class.* 
I think I may have accidentally implied that he was evaluated at that time for PP which wasn't the case...it was just for basic obedience class.

The trainer noticed during the BO evaluation that Finn had no interest in playing and he couldn't even engage him with a ball. He suggested that it would be a good idea to try and interest him in playing ball...creating a* ball drive*. And it was GREAT advice. Once he liked playing ball, it became easy to work the basic commands into the games we played.
And I often use the squeak ball as a reward.
I mentioned the squeak Kong balls and the two ball fetch to you for one reason, I thought it would be a fun game for you and your dog to play together. 
*I wasn't trying to make a connection between Ball Drive and Personal Protection Training.* 
Good luck to you and your dog with whatever you decide to do.

Ps. We can all ask our trainers to answer the questions we have about trainings like PP, But it's so helpful on the forum when a member starts a thread about something that also interests you, like what happened with your thread.
I'm not sure you got your question answered.
But least we know that Ball Drive has nothing to do with PP training : )


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## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

Findlay said:


> jaudlee. I was drawn to your thread and wanted to follow it because you and I are _considering_ PP training for our dogs. But I think I caused your thread to take a U turn. And here's where I think it happened:
> I mentioned that at 5 months old my dog was evaluated by a trainer. He evaluates all dogs before theybegin* basic obedience class.*
> I think I may have accidentally implied that he was evaluated at that time for PP which wasn't the case...it was just for basic obedience class.
> 
> ...



I really appreciated your input and suggestions on 2 ball as my pup only likes the kong squeak balls too haha!

BUT for anybody on this thread arguing I would appreciate a more toned-down approach. No need for hostility or getting personal with anybody. I thought the video link provided was amazing thank you for that!

AS FAR AS MY DOG GOES.....
-He continued his obedience on this past saturday and we observed a 14month old pup who has a real knack for PP work to see if my Ruger would get the hint from his actions and after a few exhibitions from the other dog, ruger wanted in on the action! We will be working together every saturday to try and bring ruger's drive for this type of work up and up! I continue to work on his obedience daily and mix in some tug work, but this Saturday we will hopefully be attempting to see his interest in the bite sleeve as last meeting he was really motivated.

Keep submitted to the thread for updates  and thanks to everyone for their continued input!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

So last Saturday, he wasn't given a chance to bite Jaudlee?


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## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> So last Saturday, he wasn't given a chance to bite Jaudlee?


Nope. We first worked on some obedience to get him focused upon me and then after a break we watched from the sideline as another handler and his dog worked the decoy/sleeve. At first my boy was not interested at all but after a few times around from the other dog my boy was barking/trying to lunge and get into the action. We cut him off after that moment to keep building anticipation for his next lesson on Saturday! Hopefully we will see an immediate reaction from my boy to the other dog/handler's training with the decoy on Saturday and will get Ruger some work on the sleeve!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Something that may be helpful, maybe it won't matter, but it won't hurt. Have someone you know and he knows play some tug with him. See if he'll engage with you holding the line and being behind him, then take that tug with you to training. Just in case he doesn't show interest in the rag or pillow the helper has. 

Having someone he's already comfortable with playing with him in that way, it may help if he see's things once or twice with someone like that. If you've done a lot of obedience, focused on things like manners, some dogs are a little inhibited about it.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I like the intensity in that female Jeremy, nice entrys. To many dogs I have seen lately make me want to fall asleep.

There are different forms of ball drive. 
I have a dog right now that will ignore most balls that are just lying on the ground. He will bite and fight for any ball I deliver to him in the form of a reward. The ball in and of itself is not meaningful to him, its the interaction we have over the ball that gets it done for him. 
I also have had several dogs that care more about the ball then interaction, they would happily take it away and chew or hold it for hours. This is genetic.

Most new handlers do not understand how to create drive for the ball or anything else really. The dog is given toys, treats, play and food on a regular basis, there is never any frustration or novelty built into the delivery of said items. Mix that with average or below drives you see in most WL GSDs and some Mals these days and you get a predictable result.
Sleepy dogs. Or should I say big boned, black sables with good off switches. Will make good SAR dogs.. haha.


That being said Protection is different. I personally will take a primarily prey dog with good character over a defence based dog but from a PP perspective as long as the nerves are decent it doesnt matter.


Personally, I also want to see a certain edge to my dogs..the 2015 FCI champ for instance in phase C while being technically correct was missing that imo. However thats a whole different convo.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

If people spent as much time working on a bond with their dogs as they do trying to get there dogs to like a certain toy or respect a certain collar/tool, then I think they would get a lot further. In no way shape or form should a dog enjoy a toy more than fighting a man. I understand this is the IPO section, but any real world application of that thinking is what gets people killed.[/QUOTE]
Bravo... Step number one, the bond (or working bond.) I agree Cobra 100%. I do IPO but with a lot of environmental training as well so it won't just be a sleeve he's biting if it ever came down to that... (Hopefully it never will..)
Jaundlee.. Dumb questions/statements on what worked for me.. and I'm sorry if I missed some one else saying this but...
I rarely use a ball or toy of some kind in protection... Chunk's reward is the sleeve or a good suit bite and he's always proud of getting the sleeve as a win.
Obedience is really the only place he gets a ball, food or tug reward for doing something correctly... or eagerly..
As to his lack of interest in the ball or tug, does he have a lot of other toys around him all the time? If so take them all away for at least one week... No playing except with you or family members. Then during the training time in obedience give one to him as an reward for following your commands. (Only.. no other play time with toys.) You will be surprised how quickly that toy becomes drive....
The only time Chunk ever sees a tug or ball on a rope in protection is right before it starts... We have a tug game to get him fired up (occasionally).
Most all the PP trainers here will tell you that both facets of K9 training are important, you can't have one with out the other... Cobra's great video did a real good job demonstrating this... If you fail in PP obedience you have a dog that won't release its bite, stay with you when its instincts say bite etc, etc,ect. To fail in protection puts your self and dog in real danger...
I would disagree with the statement that no ball or tug drive has no effect on training simply because it's PP training...
Good luck, in reality I don't profess to be an expert in either IPO or PP, but I work with a trainer that does and have seen how successful his methods have been with both endeavors. 
To me, Chunk and I have an almost surreal bond thru our work together, the IPO trial is kind of what completes it.... 
Phil


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks for the compliments everyone. My point was, just because a dog doesn't have ball drive doesn't mean it can't do protection work. The two are not related. Some dogs love the ball genetically. great, use it then. I disagree 100% with saying that the ball is equal "reward" to the decoy. One, the decoy is not a reward. Rather an adversary. Some dogs like to fight more than they like to tug on a ball. For those who think I'm anti-ball work, here is a video of my wife working our dog Heidi (the dog in my avatar) from a couple years ago. Heidi loves her ball! It's not something that was built. Not something intentionally created, it's just her. She would still rather bite and fight than anything. 
https://youtu.be/TdzX8BjeUwY


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