# Fight :(



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Well today the unfortunate happened, the dog i rescued 3 weeks ago was let out like usual into our yard with our Border collie like he usually is everyday, only today i walked by the glass door to see my little BC dexy being shaken and hauled around by the neck by Tyson in what looked to be a full blown attack. So out i went in a panick and TRIED to remove tyson from dexters neck, i dont know tyson that well and i was alone so my only option was to twist up on his collar and lift him off, at this point dexter was yelping like crazy and limp..i pulled tyson all the way acroos the yard by the scruff of the neck and put him in the florida room. Dexter has no punture wounds from what i could see just a little bit of blood and some surface scrapes.Tyson is fine. I yelled at him and put him on his side and i feel terrible about it, when i came back from tending to dex i found him shaking in the corner facing the wall NO i would never and did not hit him. I think he realized that he screwed up. I am not sure who started the fight, i was not around to witness it, i have a feeling that it was something to do with a stick or some random thing they could play with (dexter and tyson are very good at resource guarding) ..i do my best to remove all items like that from the yard but i obviously failed removing stuff today, and frankly my yard is full of trees and shrubs. If i cannot curb this the behaviorist will be contacted, she is on christmas vacay. I feel like a total failure right now. I practice strong leadership in my house BUT i am guilty of being a softy when it comes to snuggles and on the couch and bed type stuff..thats my fault and that all stoped on my part today. Can this be a one off type deal with them? can they bounce back from a fight and get on fine? will they ever be able to be outside alone again? has any one had success dealing with this sort of thing and not have it escalate into insanity and vet bills? i do realize that this sort of thing happens sometimes but tysons a 75 lbs dog dexter 43 on a fat day..i am guessing it may have been serious to a point but if tyson really wanted to finish dex off he could have easily.:help:


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## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

All I have to say is I'm sorry. I can't imagine. I have nothing constructive to add. My heart goes out to you.


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

Both of my strategies wouldn't serve well here on this public forum. But generally speaking, once the pecking order is set, it usually goes unchallenged for the most part. Most dogs aren't trained fighters looking to brawl all the time.. But sometimes you have to find ways of establishing that order non violently 

Sent from my LG-LS970


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Jaythethird said:


> Both of my strategies wouldn't serve well here on this public forum. But generally speaking, once the pecking order is set, it usually goes unchallenged for the most part. Most dogs aren't trained fighters looking to brawl all the time.. But sometimes you have to find ways of establishing that order non violently
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS970


You think that set the pecking order? dexter wont look at him, come up the stairs, be in the same room, but i muzzled tyson to let them out for a pee and dex still managed to give him the "look" which tyson ignored but that could have been another throw down in the making.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First, it takes a minimum of 2 weeks for a dog to come out of their shell and show their true personality. 

Second, for a dog to have another animal by their neck and shaking them it is serious. That is how they kill.

Since you were not out there to witness what happened it's hard for anyone to say. However, going forward, do not leave them unattended for a second. Crate and rotate if necessary. It takes a couple weeks for the stress hormone to leave their body after a fight so until then, it's not uncommon for the fighting to escalate.

Jax and Sierra used to fight. Sierra has terrible nerves and is dog aggressive. She never once came out on the winning end and was at the vet for stitches more than once. It only take a glance to set a fight off. The trigger can be very subtle. We started training with them to get it under control but then I went on vacation and took Jax with me. We haven't had a single fight since then. It's like something reset in Sierra's brain.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I think you handled it well. 

I would play with them a lot and see where the trigger for the fight is coming from. Get any toys they may fight over and let the dogs know you won't tolerate any aggression from either. 

Because you new dog is a rescue he may have had an experience in the past where he needed to use aggression. 

Do you keep them separated most of the time or are they together?

How do they get on the rest of the time? 

Do they resource guard items or people?

I've seen dogs fight and be fine after. It depends on the situations and how you deal with it and then how you act in future. By being more cool with both dogs can be good for a while rather than being really petty.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jaythethird said:


> ut generally speaking, once the pecking order is set, it usually goes unchallenged for the most part.


I very much disagree with this. Sierra never once won a fight with Jax but she never stopped starting them. I fostered a doberman that would start fights and never once came out on top but that didn't stop him from starting them.

It all depends on the animal and most dogs that start fights are not confident animals. IMO, they usually have underlying fears and anxieties. 

But nobody was out there to witness what happened or who started it so nobody can even guess what might have happened.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> I very much disagree with this. Sierra never once won a fight with Jax but she never stopped starting them. I fostered a doberman that would start fights and never once came out on top but that didn't stop him from starting them.
> 
> It all depends on the animal and most dogs that start fights are not confident animals. IMO, they usually have underlying fears and anxieties.
> 
> But nobody was out there to witness what happened or who started it so nobody can even guess what might have happened.


Had a lab mix just as you describe.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

MadLab said:


> I think you handled it well.
> 
> I would play with them a lot and see where the trigger for the fight is coming from. Get any toys they may fight over and let the dogs know you won't tolerate any aggression from either.
> 
> ...


Together, 3 weeks not one problem, (not that i could see anyways)
They get on good
No people are all fair and loved, i dont keep toys around its a bad scene with all of them. 

I know experts say" dogs move on from the moment right after it happens" i dont know if i believe that..i think they remember stuff and it effects them, i have no clue about his passed life, 

They are both fixed


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I very much disagree with this. Sierra never once won a fight with Jax but she never stopped starting them. I fostered a doberman that would start fights and never once came out on top but that didn't stop him from starting them.
> 
> It all depends on the animal and most dogs that start fights are not confident animals. IMO, they usually have underlying fears and anxieties.
> 
> But nobody was out there to witness what happened or who started it so nobody can even guess what might have happened.


Yes, they have been out together before with no issues, i am very worried about the true personality shining though as you said in about 2 or 3 weeks time.


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

I wasn't speaking of the dogs setting the order. And another reason I won't go to further detail... I'd hate to have the pack come down on me lol. 

OP, if you look at any animals, none of them hang out after an altercation. The young bull elk wanders off to find new cows, the coyote seeks new territory, the chipmunk relinquishes his stash of goodies and seeks new forms of sustenance so on and so forth 

Sent from my LG-LS970


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Jaythethird said:


> I wasn't speaking of the dogs setting the order. And another reason I won't go to further detail... I'd hate to have the pack come down on me lol.
> 
> OP, if you look at any animals, none of them hang out after an altercation. The young bull elk wanders off to find new cows, the coyote seeks new territory, the chipmunk relinquishes his stash of goodies and seeks new forms of sustenance so on and so forth
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS970


"the pound dog goes back to the pound" .....jj sorta


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> "the pound dog goes back to the pound" .....jj sorta


Very possibly. A decision only you can make because you are the only one monitoring behavior and temperament 

Sent from my LG-LS970


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Jaythethird said:


> Very possibly. A decision only you can make because you are the only one monitoring behavior and temperament
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS970


Its true and i am absolutely clueless about it, im not about giving up, but right now they are on a very strict no contact with eachother routine, until i figure it out.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

They should not be left alone together....leave short leads on them, have prongs on them both and hopefully, another person in the room....start over and do not let them alone together...be vigilant when they are in the same room....

Lee


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> They should not be left alone together....leave short leads on them, have prongs on them both and hopefully, another person in the room....start over and do not let them alone together...be vigilant when they are in the same room....
> 
> Lee


Dexter is just a little guy  ive had him since he was 9 weeks old and i can personally say he has never seen a fight let alone be in one, im not saying he is an angel that didnt provoke it but as you can imagine it was heart stopping watching your baby be shaken and screaming in pain infront of you. I hope they can start over, i hope that they can be together in the yard again some day.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

It's usually a little easier for two boys to get over it. If that dog wanted to kill your other dog then your other dog would be dead. How old are these dogs?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> "the pound dog goes back to the pound" .....jj sorta


If it is just joking, than it is in poor taste, and I know you are the OP here. 

I am sorry that your dogs got into a fight. It is a terrible experience whether you know the dogs for a few weeks or for years. Doesn't matter. No one likes to see dogs they care about fight. 

Unfortunately, you are blaming the wrong party in this situation. The one dog was only in your home for 3 weeks, and you gave him free access to the other dog, which is smaller and weaker, and you left them unsupervised in the yard when you seem to realize that all your dogs seem to have issues with resource guarding. 

If you must blame, then it is you that you need to point your finger at. 

Maybe taking the pound dog back to the pound is the thing to do. Without plenty of training, management, leadership, and supervision, it isn't going to work out. Putting these two dogs back in the yard together on their own any time soon, is likely a death sentence to both dogs.

I hope you do not send the dog to a pound. Too many dogs do not make it out of pounds. Getting a rescue involved with this might be the best thing to do. They may be able to help you work through the problem, and they may be able to place the dog for you. 

There are things you can do. But if you are joking about sending the dog back to the pound, maybe your mind is already made up.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I also want to add that mine grab each others necks all the time and make lots of noises that resembles them killing each other, but they are playing. I would also like to add that this can scare the poop out of other breeds. I have witnessed other dogs crying and sound like they were dying and there was no reason for it. I'm not saying this is what happened in your case, but are you 150 percent sure this was a dog trying to kill another dog?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

llombardo said:


> It's usually a little easier for two boys to get over it. If that dog wanted to kill your other dog then your other dog would be dead. How old are these dogs?


I agree with this. If these were bitches, than it would be all over. We would be talking musical crates forever. And rehoming one would be the thing to do. Females will remember and wait for an opportunity, and strike fast, and they will play for keeps. Dogs, well, the are loud and squack, but usually they will not kill each other (don't count on that here though), and they can usually get over a spat.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

selzer said:


> If it is just joking, than it is in poor taste, and I know you are the OP here.
> 
> I am sorry that your dogs got into a fight. It is a terrible experience whether you know the dogs for a few weeks or for years. Doesn't matter. No one likes to see dogs they care about fight.
> 
> ...


So, yes its been a poor taste kind of day so forgive my poor taste joke, No i am not about to give up, and yes i totally understand it is my fault. I am not blaming Tyson or Dexter. I am at a total loss. The rescue and i are the only reason tyson is not dead. He was not available to the public for adoption because he had a issue with a cat. It makes me wonder if that is really the case. Again i have sent the two boys out in the yard together for the past 3 weeks..no issues today something changed. My hope is that it can be managed and if anyone had any insight. The resource guarding is one thing that i manage very well, i checked my yard and no toys were out there, only random twigs, which truly could have started it but its outside and there are sticks everywere i turn. I hope you understand that i am not against tyson, and i dont blame either of the dogs.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

llombardo said:


> It's usually a little easier for two boys to get over it. If that dog wanted to kill your other dog then your other dog would be dead. How old are these dogs?


Dexter is 2.5 and fixed, Tyson is a mystery age the pound said 2 the vet thought maybe 14 months if that, he is also fixed


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I also want to add that mine grab each others necks all the time and make lots of noises that resembles them killing each other, but they are playing. I would also like to add that this can scare the poop out of other breeds. I have witnessed other dogs crying and sound like they were dying and there was no reason for it. I'm not saying this is what happened in your case, but are you 150 percent sure this was a dog trying to kill another dog?



I know that when i stood over him and rolled his choke collar to make him release dexter he had a firm grip and was shaking him. I dont think it was play, i dont think that dex could have stopped tyson from killing him if tysons intention was to kill him. I have seen Tyson play before this was different. It was scary, i broke my finger in the process. This could have very well been a typical pecking order fight?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

you werent there, i dont think it has to do with leadership

THey got in a scrap over something else while you were gone it happens.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But management first -- dogs are not given free or unsupervised access to each other, 

Then leadership and training will build the bond, and you will be able to tell instantly if things are escalating, and a strong LEAVE IT, can stop anything before it gets started long enough to get everyone safe. With clear leadership, good management and training, the dogs will be far less likely to go at one another in the first place. 

And these are two males who are both close in age. It is possible that either of them started it, even the littler dog. it's possible that he sees the newer dog as a threat and wants him gone. He might have started it, and the other dog may have not backed down. Or the newer dog might be exhibiting some bad habit or the reason he was in a rescue and started with the intent of finishing the other dog. 

Without being right there, and following the whole situation, it's impossible to say what actually happened.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

selzer said:


> But management first -- dogs are not given free or unsupervised access to each other,
> 
> Then leadership and training will build the bond, and you will be able to tell instantly if things are escalating, and a strong LEAVE IT, can stop anything before it gets started long enough to get everyone safe. With clear leadership, good management and training, the dogs will be far less likely to go at one another in the first place.
> 
> ...


Yes and from the few weeks we have had him, from what i can see they dont have issues with eachother in the home when i am around, they dont go at eachother so it was a shock to see this in the morning outside. I agree that training and leadership is key and i will be training him in the new year (i have alot going on right now stressfull times), and its very likley that dexy sees him as a threat and wants him gone but hes going to have to get over himself. A few days ago they were rolling around with eachother licking eachothers faces and playing nicely in the yard. Who knows why he was in the pound, my rescue that i volunteer foster for said "he killed a cat when it got into the yard, and the lady loved him so much but had to give him up because the neighbours were abusing her about him being there" the pound said " he was a breeding dog that was kept out in a shed and ate a cat when it got on his property" ...so the only consistency was the cat killing...which is a far cry from dog killing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It's probably just as well, to wait a few weeks before starting the new regime. Just pure management for now, and when the stress is off, read up on NILIF, and start training big time. 

A lot of times, dogs give us a lot of cues that we just do not recognize as being a problem. As we continue to go to training with a dog we learn their triggers, we learn their body language, they learn to trust us, we learn to trust them -- but this time it is based on solid ground. You did trust your dog, but he hadn't earned that trust yet. Now you don't trust him. But, whenas you progress in trainining you wiill learn when, in what situations you can trust him. 

Good luck with your dogs. Dog fights are awful. I hope that you will not have to experience anything so ugly as this one again.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

who are you thinking of as a trainer . You can PM me , or put it out on forum . There are some trainers to avoid like the plague .


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Things are pretty quiet around here this morning, they greeted each other while dex was coming in from his yard time and it was a little tense..nothing came of it. I did some reading last night and according to dog people males dont typically hold onto grudges , right now they are all together in the L room, dex under my feet, shiloh sound asleep on the carept and tyson by the door on his mat. I am going to take tyson away today on a road trip and dexy can spend the day with his dad. I know Dexter is scared on tyson at the moment and is being very careful about not coming near him.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Second, for a dog to have another animal by their neck and shaking them it is serious. That is how they kill.


Mine play scruff-shake all the time. It varies from pack culture to pack culture.

I had a pair of nasty bitchfights (one recently spayed, two intact) that left lots of blood, punctures, drains and stitches. I posted here about it worried that I'd have to play musical crates (as selzer says, and I totally love the term!) with my crew forever. Turns out it was way more dramatic for me than for them. Months later and with only minimal management the offending parties are best friends. I refused to leave them together when I was not present for weeks and weeks, now they roam the house together unaccompanied and don't have a problem. I might have another fight one day and I'll deal with it, but folks told me the same thing as they're telling you about potentially having to separate forever and it turned out not to be the case in my household.

It came down to rearranging the pecking order. After the 'head bitch' was spayed she had a very hard time letting someone else step up. Once she was eclipsed she calmed right down and hasn't given anybody any trouble since. Now that things have settled back into law and order it's daisies and sunshine for everyone.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

marbury said:


> Mine play scruff-shake all the time. It varies from pack culture to pack culture.
> 
> I had a pair of nasty bitchfights (one recently spayed, two intact) that left lots of blood, punctures, drains and stitches. I posted here about it worried that I'd have to play musical crates (as selzer says, and I totally love the term!) with my crew forever. Turns out it was way more dramatic for me than for them. Months later and with only minimal management the offending parties are best friends. I refused to leave them together when I was not present for weeks and weeks, now they roam the house together unaccompanied and don't have a problem. I might have another fight one day and I'll deal with it, but folks told me the same thing as they're telling you about potentially having to separate forever and it turned out not to be the case in my household.
> 
> It came down to rearranging the pecking order. After the 'head bitch' was spayed she had a very hard time letting someone else step up. Once she was eclipsed she calmed right down and hasn't given anybody any trouble since. Now that things have settled back into law and order it's daisies and sunshine for everyone.


Well for now Tyson is approaching dexter tail up head high and slowly moving towards him. I had to bite the bullet and throw a basket muzzle on tyson for the time being. As soon as tyson approaches dexter gets still and looks down to the ground.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

In part this may have caused the problem.

Border Collie . HARD EYE contact , which they can not help, it is part of the border collie breed characteristics -- That prey lock hard eye could have stimulated the GSD into a defensive response - 
They upset dogs -- you see this in training classes , either the little dogs are upset and nervous or the bigger dogs get puffy and unsettled . Whole atmosphere moves out of a neutral zone.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

yeah i noticed that a border collie or any herding dogs (cattle, aussie shep) can a lot of times clash with a shepherds personality, and the shep trys to run them down, I guess that intense stare ?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

pets4life said:


> yeah i noticed that a border collie or any herding dogs (cattle, aussie shep) can a lot of times clash with a shepherds personality, and the shep trys to run them down, I guess that intense stare ?


Yes and Dexy certainly can be a total a hole.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

exactly , especially the GSD


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Not to say that I know what's going on at your place, but I know from my own experience - if you have one dog muzzled, you have to make sure the other dog(s) don't antagonize him. It's not fair to him.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

carmspack said:


> In part this may have caused the problem.
> 
> Border Collie . HARD EYE contact , which they can not help, it is part of the border collie breed characteristics -- That prey lock hard eye could have stimulated the GSD into a defensive response -
> They upset dogs -- you see this in training classes , either the little dogs are upset and nervous or the bigger dogs get puffy and unsettled . Whole atmosphere moves out of a neutral zone.


Maybe my intense little bc learned the ultimate lesson. He is not a stupid dog so im hoping what ever happened in the yard was the biggest MSG sent to Dexter and that is the end of it. The BC stare down.. urgh, i originally wanted a GSD puppy two years ago. my second choice was BC. My boyfriend at the time said "NO GSD's eat children thats what they do eat kids and attack people" arguing with him was useless and we ultimately settled on a little bc boy. Well fast forward to rescuing a large shep mix female and hes in love with GSD's. They went from "terrible awful beasts that will eat babies" to "loving loyal amazing dogs that are great". Now i have my gorgeous dream GSD and problems lol.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here you go - Gemini Training --- GeminiK9.com | Dog Training | Dog Trainer

many of my dogs have been at his classes -- owners , novice and long time pros (going for protection / schutzhund) all have very high regard for him , ethics , and skills , results .


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

carmspack said:


> here you go - Gemini Training --- GeminiK9.com | Dog Training | Dog Trainer
> 
> many of my dogs have been at his classes -- owners , novice and long time pros (going for protection / schutzhund) all have very high regard for him , ethics , and skills , results .


Thank you so much


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

oh yeah i trained with one of the people who were trained by the guy there he is very very good


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Not to say that I know what's going on at your place, but I know from my own experience - if you have one dog muzzled, you have to make sure the other dog(s) don't antagonize him. It's not fair to him.


No Dex is not antagonizing him, he wont go near him, wont look at him and clears the path nice and wide when tyson approaches him. As of now no one is muzzled, tyson is on his dog bed and dex went downstairs to lay on his pillow.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I really don't like the idea of muzzling just one dog. My fear would be that even muzzled a dog can initiate a fight or since you are unsure of what provoked gis, the unmuzzled dog initiates a fight. Either way, the muzzled dog could be severely hurt.

The answer here is what others have suggested, find a good trainer and all interaction must be supervised.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Saphire said:


> I really don't like the idea of muzzling just one dog. My fear would be that even muzzled a dog can initiate a fight or since you are unsure of what provoked gis, the unmuzzled dog initiates a fight. Either way, the muzzled dog could be severely hurt.
> 
> The answer here is what others have suggested, find a good trainer and all interaction must be supervised.


I took the muzzle off of Tyson, I trust dex wont get in his face, i am monitoring the situation and right now both of my boys are in different areas of the house avoiding eachother like the plauge. I am looking forward to training, i dont know tysons history other then what the rescue said, then what the pound said. I do however know dexters history and he has never gotten into a little scrap let alone having his ass handed to him like he did. So, careful monitoring is my plan of action.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Sounds like you are on track and have plans in place.

I hope it all works out in the end. Please note that dogs do get into squabbles and do move past them. With no visible physical injuries this may well have been a warning or two dogs just working it out. A good trainer will help you to see past all of that.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

at least they are 2 males lol hopefully it works out, but its good to get him use to the muzzle in case he gets aggressive again

I have seen a gsd attack a doberman with a muzzle on the other dog just screamed, sounds like your bc doesnt want to fight for real so if it makes you feel more safe for now you might want to keep it on. JMHO

The gsd is a lot stronger and can cause serious damage in seconds


If i was in the same situation I would probably muzzle the larger dominant dog also till i see where they stand.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

"Pecking order" doesn't mean crap. One dog might be deferring completely and a badly socialized dog that sees himself higher up will still nail him sometimes. If you insist on letting them out together make sure there is no toy or food bowl that can be the cause of a fight. Also mark with a "no" and smack the crap out of the aggressor at the first sign of an issue. If it isn't enough to break it up and cause both dogs to disengage from each other do it again and harder.

Or you can just not take the risk and crate one or both and alternate which one has freedom and keep them both separate.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Baillif said:


> "Pecking order" doesn't mean crap. One dog might be deferring completely and a badly socialized dog that sees himself higher up will still nail him sometimes. If you insist on letting them out together make sure there is no toy or food bowl that can be the cause of a fight. Also mark with a "no" and smack the crap out of the aggressor at the first sign of an issue. If it isn't enough to break it up and cause both dogs to disengage from each other do it again and harder.
> 
> Or you can just not take the risk and crate one or both and alternate which one has freedom and keep them both separate.


LOL picture one crazy woman with no shoes in knee deep snow yelling NO and trying to make the bigger dog release the little dog..yep that was me, im surprised i did not get a good bite out of the deal, instead i have a broken finger and a sense of failure. Also i am not taking the chance on letting them out together, i am letting them have there own yard time.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

use a stick next time. Not a thick one or anything but like a switch.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Baillif said:


> use a stick next time. Not a thick one or anything but like a switch.


What do i do with it?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Go for the flank or back leg. You don't have to hit the dog very hard to stop them usually. But if the first one doesn't work you wanna start stepping it up. Most fights are pretty ritualistic as you could tell by the lack of real injury to your dog, so generally just adding that consequence to the dog not listening to your "no" is enough to prevent a future problem. Horse riding whips work wonders too. I never train with them ofc so don't everybody freak out on me, but if you need to break up a dogfight without getting bit or injuring a dog it is a great way.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Go for the flank or back leg. You don't have to hit the dog very hard to stop them usually. But if the first one doesn't work you wanna start stepping it up. Most fights are pretty ritualistic as you could tell by the lack of real injury to your dog, so generally just adding that consequence to the dog not listening to your "no" is enough to prevent a future problem. Horse riding whips work wonders too. I never train with them ofc so don't everybody freak out on me, but if you need to break up a dogfight without getting bit or injuring a dog it is a great way.


Yeah thats the good thing here, dex had nothing on him but scrapes and a little blood.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

you are putting yourself at risk, hitting an already amped up dog with anything at all. chances are good they'll redirect onto you in the excitement.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> you are putting yourself at risk, hitting an already amped up dog with anything at all. chances are good they'll redirect onto you in the excitement.


I did not hit, i stood over him and rolled his chock collar and pulled up at the same time, he released after about 1 long freakin minute. I dont know how long they were in it for though.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You are putting yourself at risk intervening in a dog fight period. Wanna let it carry on to the end conclusion? Go for it. I would break it up. Also if you get em good the chances are very low he redirects. Most go out of drive immediately.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Baillif said:


> "Pecking order" doesn't mean crap. One dog might be deferring completely and a badly socialized dog that sees himself higher up will still nail him sometimes.


It means a lot in my house. It's very functional and very easy to observe rank. Yes, a badly socialized dog can have no idea what rank means and so it is irrelevant to him or her. But it's still 'a thing' that exists for well-rounded dogs.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Marbury I absolutely agree with you. That being said there are a ton of dogs out there that don't fit that description. I've seen well socialized dogs diffuse tense situations with very subtle supplication gestures. I've seen dogs that were clearly the alpha of a group lick other dogs lips and teeth to get those nervous dogs to settle. I've seen them roll onto their own backs to put puppies at ease. Watching a socially savvy dog work is fascinating.

Those dogs don't pin another dog for a full minute while locked into their necks.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Marbury I absolutely agree with you. That being said there are a ton of dogs out there that don't fit that description. I've seen well socialized dogs diffuse tense situations with very subtle supplication gestures. I've seen dogs that were clearly the alpha of a group lick other dogs lips and teeth to get those nervous dogs to settle. I've seen them roll onto their own backs to put puppies at ease. Watching a socially savvy dog work is fascinating.
> 
> Those dogs don't pin another dog for a full minute while locked into their necks.


I am very lucky i went out when i did.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That rescue just needs more supervised dog socialization and will probably be fine. A lot of times it is just inexperience on the part of a dog reading or giving off gestures to or from other dogs. He didn't do a whole lot of damage in that case so his bite inhibition sounds decent. It is usually fairly easily fixed with time and exposure.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Marbury, when your bitch dies peacefully in her sleep, than I will agree that in that case you were perfectly fine with letting them together alone while you are away. 

Generally speaking, when there is blood between bitches, you don't leave them alone together. It could be days, it could be months, but you can come home to a blood bath with one bitch dead and the other requiring euthanasia. It has happened. 

I have let bitches run together after a fight. But I kennel them separately. I kennel everyone separately, save an older bitch with her pup. I am not saying you can't keep multiple bitches together. If you have the personalities right, and there is space between them in age, and your leadership and training has everyone properly managed. 

But if bitches decide they hate eachother, they can be deadly, and what then? We blame the bitch or we blame ourselves for leaving them together, for believing that we understand canine motivation well enought to risk our dogs' lives. 

It's funny, most of the bitch fights, well all of them, happened when I was right there, and possibly because I was right there. A couple of times I have not latched a gate properly, and I came home to two greeting me at the gate instead of one. And one of those times, it was at that moment when the fight broke out. The bitches must have been together all day, and perfectly fine, but trying to get pets from me at the same time set them off. Luckily I was right there and able to stop it before it got going good.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

How's your finger doing? How did you manage to break it? Ouch! Poor you!


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Just re-read this and it sounds horrible, sorry! It was supposed to be funny/laughing. Basically, if I end up with a blood bath I'll be the first to prostrate myself here and feel horrible. But it is possible to have peace!


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> How's your finger doing? How did you manage to break it? Ouch! Poor you!


Its okay, nothing that wont fix itself , i think i bit off more then i ever thought i could chew with this boy. I took him on a nice long drive tonight to pick up my neice tonight, she got in the car and he barked and growled at her half the way home. I think he is may be a nervous type of boy...this is going to be one **** of a mission.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your dog may be settling in, and showing his true colors now. Maybe he can be straightened out with strong, consistent, fair leadership and management, and maybe he cannot be. 

I feel awful for you. And I feel awful for the lady whose dog just bit the trainer, albeit she had the dog a tad longer than you have. There are similarities here. One is that both rescues made some rather questionable placements with dogs that were not ready or didn't disclose everything honestly about the dogs. 

And now you, both of you, are at least somewhat committed to dogs that may present some serious liabilities. And this gives a poor reflection to rescues which shouldn't be the case. Lots of dogs come from rescues and even shelters without this kind of thing happening. 

I see a goodly amount of work before the pair of you. It is not you or her fault. With you, I think you have a decision. You've had the dog for 3 weeks, not two years. And if it is not fitting with your other dog, and now growling at your niece -- that had to be fun driving with a dog growling at a guest in your car. I hope he was crated. 

This is the dog that killed the cat? A dog might kill a cat. It doesn't necessarily mean the dog has a character flaw. The attack on your dog might have been from the border collie stare thing, yes. And the dog may still have a heightened level of stress/adrenalin whatever from the fight. 

Or the dog is showing you some of who he is, now that he is settling into his new situation. Personally, if you can work with your rescue to find him another placement, I would understand. Pets should lower your bloodpressure, not raise it. Not everyone is the right person to take on a dog with serious baggage. I can't be sure yours has serious baggage, but it is not always heroic to plod on with a dog that is "more than I ever thought I could chew." Sometimes, while it may mean giving up on a critter, it is better to understand our own abilities and accept it that this dog might not be right for your situation and experience level.

If you are still game, then I hope you can find a good trainer, and that you can turn him around, and he becomes and awesome pet for you. 

I am sorry you are going through this.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Very happy to report that there have been no fights!! no attempt to fight....no awkward moments of weirdness! nothing! i have been super woman making sure these two spend no unsupervised time alone and then it all got blown away when the oldest left them in the car together..after knowing about the fight and all ( im still mad at him about that) but no fighting. So, off to training in the new year we go! and with close supervision these dudes will be peachy.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

This thread scares me. Fiona is my dog and my mom moved in with Fiona's sister from the same litter. Things were great for awhile. Then one day FIGHT! No damage done, but both my mom and I were only 3 feet away. Fiona is off at training camp. I have had kennels installed for each dog. Neither dog has been fixed ... Yet. I am worried that when Fiona comes home I am going to feel like a ref at a hockey game.

So I can understand your being leery of the boys being together. I wonder if they will feed off your tension and fear of the next fight. If you figure out how to not feel that tension and fear, please tell me how.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## PhoenixGuardian (Jul 10, 2013)

It sounds to me like you handled it well. One way that I have found that works well for breaking up fights is to (like you did) get your hands on the top dog and shake them around until they drop the other, then back away quick. And fights can be caused by just about anything, somebody had a toy, food, a comfy place, heck, even one looked at the other funny or had their tail up at the wrong time. Are they both fixed? Is one fixed? If not and it is an option, you can fix the lower ranking dog, which may help if you are afraid this will be a recurring issue. Dog fights aren't pretty. They can be downright scary. You just have to be careful that you don't get bitten as well, and be sure to check both dogs over well (including ears and mouths) when everyone has calmed down. 
A fight between two dogs very rarely ends with them wanting to kill one another, unless they are trained for fighting (which no dog should be). It is just a way of showing who is on top at that moment, though things can change. Of course, if it is a little dog, obviously there will be a big problem, but if it is a fight between two bigger dogs, there is a less likely chance of injury. Dogs almost always go for neck holds. It is there that they can ride the other dog down and hold them. The dog who has been put into the hold will bite and snap at anything they think they can get their jaws on. They are nothing to mess around with. 
It sounds to me like you did fine, but did you notice any clues after the fight was over? I know you said you walked in on the fight, but were their any toys, food, spots that looked like they could cause a fight? If yes, you can most likely remove the cause and everything will be fine, you may just have to monitor toys and food. If not, you may have a challenged, and challenger, which won't be resolved because we humans step in to finish it (which is what we should do!). The dog that was being beaten will still probably get whooped as soon as you leave. Think of it like children, when mommy's around, fine I'll leave you alone, but only 'cause she's here.
Well, those are my thoughts 
Good luck! I know how scary this can be!


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## PhoenixGuardian (Jul 10, 2013)

Just saw your other post, and awesome!


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Cheyanna said:


> This thread scares me. Fiona is my dog and my mom moved in with Fiona's sister from the same litter. Things were great for awhile. Then one day FIGHT! No damage done, but both my mom and I were only 3 feet away. Fiona is off at training camp. I have had kennels installed for each dog. Neither dog has been fixed ... Yet. I am worried that when Fiona comes home I am going to feel like a ref at a hockey game.
> 
> So I can understand your being leery of the boys being together. I wonder if they will feed off your tension and fear of the next fight. If you figure out how to not feel that tension and fear, please tell me how.
> 
> ...


I was not around for the fight, i walked by my sliding glass door and saw the little one being shaken and dragged around. I noticed today that when the big shep comes up to my little BC he has a very tail up "im the boss " walk, and dexter who luckily is really really smart sticks his head in the other direction and looks down at the ground. I think that my cocky little border collie MAY have started it..but ya know, my big shep clearly finished it. Dexter may have learned a valuable lesson. I think that they will always need to be watched but i know dex is not about to do anything stupid. Tension and fear are terrible things to feel, especially when your fear could set them off again, my advice to that is lorazapam haha no seriously though just take deep breaths and think positive thoughts


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

PhoenixGuardian said:


> It sounds to me like you handled it well. One way that I have found that works well for breaking up fights is to (like you did) get your hands on the top dog and shake them around until they drop the other, then back away quick. And fights can be caused by just about anything, somebody had a toy, food, a comfy place, heck, even one looked at the other funny or had their tail up at the wrong time. Are they both fixed? Is one fixed? If not and it is an option, you can fix the lower ranking dog, which may help if you are afraid this will be a recurring issue. Dog fights aren't pretty. They can be downright scary. You just have to be careful that you don't get bitten as well, and be sure to check both dogs over well (including ears and mouths) when everyone has calmed down.
> A fight between two dogs very rarely ends with them wanting to kill one another, unless they are trained for fighting (which no dog should be). It is just a way of showing who is on top at that moment, though things can change. Of course, if it is a little dog, obviously there will be a big problem, but if it is a fight between two bigger dogs, there is a less likely chance of injury. Dogs almost always go for neck holds. It is there that they can ride the other dog down and hold them. The dog who has been put into the hold will bite and snap at anything they think they can get their jaws on. They are nothing to mess around with.
> It sounds to me like you did fine, but did you notice any clues after the fight was over? I know you said you walked in on the fight, but were their any toys, food, spots that looked like they could cause a fight? If yes, you can most likely remove the cause and everything will be fine, you may just have to monitor toys and food. If not, you may have a challenged, and challenger, which won't be resolved because we humans step in to finish it (which is what we should do!). The dog that was being beaten will still probably get whooped as soon as you leave. Think of it like children, when mommy's around, fine I'll leave you alone, but only 'cause she's here.
> Well, those are my thoughts
> Good luck! I know how scary this can be!


I found the coveted brick that they both love. Dexter pulled it out of the garden 1 summer ago and its been like solid gold to them. I have put that thing in the garbage many many times only to discover that its been pulled out and put back in the yard. The whole bloody fight was most likely started by a silly old brick.


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## FortheLoveofChari (Nov 22, 2013)

selzer said:


> I agree with this. If these were bitches, than it would be all over. We would be talking musical crates forever. And rehoming one would be the thing to do. Females will remember and wait for an opportunity, and strike fast, and they will play for keeps. Dogs, well, the are loud and squack, but usually they will not kill each other (don't count on that here though), and they can usually get over a spat.


As I had said in a post before, I eluded to a fight between my Klondike and Chari. Both females and it was Klondike my border collie mix who was the aggressor. She was a resource guarder. It takes time, vigilance, and patience with a firm hand (not agressive, just firm) to work through fighting. There can even be redirecting, and as stelzer said...females play for keeps. 

I was lucky in the instance that Chari had no qualms and had no desire to fight back. It was all Klondike. 

I would recruit a behaviorist before taking the dog back to the pound, or even as Stelzer mentioned, see if the a rescue has resources to help fix this behavior. 

It will take time, patience, and being firm. You need to establish yourself as a calm direct leader. And don't leave them unsupervised, especially when you know there is resource guarding issues. That was a trigger waiting to go off to be honest.


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