# German Showline crossed with a German Working line??



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

If I were to get a GSD like this what will the dog be like? Temperament? Hard to train? Dive? I have been reading threads about Showline GSDs, and Working line GSDs. When I move out, eventually, I was thinking about getting a dog from German Working lines.

But I have been reading and it has been said that German Working line GSDs have a high drive.I don't want a high drive dog. :/ Then I have also seen and heard that German Showline dogs have that angular back....I want a dog with a straight back or not so angular back.

Just to get this out there: I AM NOT LOOKING FOR OR GETTING A DOG RIGHT NOW.

My main question is: What if I got a dog that was German Showline crossed with a German Working line? What would the dog be like?Have you met a dog that was crossed like this?

Feel free to post reptuable breeders who do this, so I can get an idea of the dogs look like and such.

So far based on what I have read and learned here is what I would like my future dog to be like: Medium drive, grrat tempermant, loves kids, gets along great with other dogs, I would plan on participating in agility. But If I don't get the dog fixed, I may show him/her. I would want a good family companion dog.Colorwise: Black, Sable, Black & Red, Black & Tan.White is good too.lol.

Don't worry I will be doing more reading and learning before I even plan to get a dog. I will for sure consider a dog from a shelter/rescue. I would probably get a dog from a breeder and a dog from a shelter. Different ages of course. So I can have the best of both.lol

Basically, my question is: What would a GSD crossed with German Showlines and German Working lines?Is it a good idea to have that kind of dog?

REMEMBER: I AM LOOKING FOR OR GETTING A DOG NOW.

I just want to know your ideas and opinions on working line and showline crossed GSDs.


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## charlie319 (Apr 6, 2009)

*I have a dog like that*

I have a GSD that is about 60% West German showlines (more depending what you consider Frei von der Gugge to be) and the balance DDR & Czech working bloodlines. IMPO, unless you are looking for a pet, this is a little dicier than buying a full show-lines or full workinglines dog as you are hoping that the best desirable qualities of both lines make it into your dog. In my dog's case, although there is little activity in his last 3 generations, my dog has very good background (beyond 3 generatins back) pedigree and is very good with women & children and protective about the house definitely not so good with males and is of a very suspicious nature. Such are the tradeoffs...
I would recommend you contact a Kennel that has produced Universal Sieger types. The only one that comes to my mind is Whirling Thunder where they have offspring of two time Universal Sieger and WUSV competitor Triumph's Gucci siring pups. Once again, do your homework as the mother is as important, if not more, than the sire.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

charlie319 said:


> I would recommend you contact a Kennel that has produced Universal Sieger types. The only one that comes to my mind is Whirling Thunder where they have offspring of two time Universal Sieger and WUSV competitor Triumph's Gucci siring pups. Once again, do your homework as the mother is as important, if not more, than the sire.


My Keefer is a Triumph's Gucci grandson. I agree with Charlie that you don't necessarily need a working/show cross to find what you're looking for. Keef is West German show, and Halo is West German working, and they're not that different in terms of energy and drives.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> My Keefer is a Triumph's Gucci grandson. I agree with Charlie that you don't necessarily need a working/show cross to find what you're looking for. Keef is West German show, and Halo is West German working, and they're not that different in terms of energy and drives.


Gucci?lol. awesome! what is it spelled the same way as the famous purses??lol


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## Nabil (Mar 22, 2010)

I have posted this on another thread but thought it is more suited for this topic:


I was going through V (BSZS) Javir vom Talka Marda's progeny and I found this really interesting cross with a very famous showline:

Falk vom Wildsteiger Landhaus pedigree information - German shepherd dog

I will leave for the experts to comment. Could this be part of a well calculated program to narrow the gap between the WL and SL?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I just hope when it comes to crossing lines the breeders know what they are doing.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Not every working line dog has high drive. If only that were true! ... Last pup prospect we saw at our SchH club was as mellow and chilled as can be. Great for pet. Not so good for work. In every litter there will be some nuts, some sleepers, some in the middle, a few sweet pups, and a few real a-holes


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have had such a cross - show and working and I will not go there again. This dog got the worse of both worlds. To me, the GSD should only be bred as a working dog.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I have had such a cross - show and working and I will not go there again. This dog got the worse of both worlds. To me, the GSD should only be bred as a working dog.


I think there are many people on here that have showline dogs who make great agility, rally and schutzland(I think I misspelled that word.) dogs.


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## GSDGenes (Mar 9, 2006)

Prior to the 1980s the division between German working and show lines was virtually nonexistent. Dogs such as Bernd & Bodo v Lierberg were prominent in both working & show lines & Bodo Lierberg was imported to the USA and gained his American conformation Championship and even went Select at the GSDCA National Specialty! Up until the mid 1970s in America & the beginning of the 80s in Germany, there was very little variation in type between German working dogs, German show dogs & American show dogs. Before the 1980s too, dogs of the various GSD colors & patterns, including dark agout/sable dogs, bicolors, and blacks whereas from the 1980s on, the saddle pattern black and tan/red color & pattern dominated the show ring in both Germany and America. The saddle black and tan/red pattern itself adds an illusion of bigger bone due to the red/tan/cream coloration of the legs and forechest of the typical saddle pattern dog. The pattern of the black saddle helps provide an illusion of better front and rear angulation than the dog may actually have. The agouti/sable pattern is actually genetically dominant over the black and tan. A saddle patterned agouti as an adult sometimes is so strongly patterned that it may be difficult to know if a dog is a black and tan with a faded saddle or a lot of silvering in its topline or if the dog is a saddle pattern agouti, unless one can see puppy pictures of the dog in question. The agouti and the black and tan two-tone pattern dog are very obviously different from each other as puppies.

An interesting sidenote is that Canto vd Wienerau marked the beginning of the German show dog style taking its own direction and Lance of Fran-Jo who marked the beginning of the American show dog style taking its own direction, lived & were being used at stud at about the same time in GSD history, the end of the 60s & beginning of the 70s. Both Canto & Lance were saddle black and tan dogs, both were dogs who had more rear angulation than the dogs that went before them. Saddle pattern black and tans/reds descending from Arminius & Wienerau lines have dominated the German conformation scene ever since the beginning of the 80s.

Agoutis, bicolors, and black dogs continue to be commonly seen in German working bloodlines because people breeding for working dogs didn't include selecting dogs who would be as "cookie color" alike as possible whereas tthe concept of uniformity in the German conformation scene, seems to have been interpreted as meaning as identical as possible, even in color and markings. Working line breeders select dogs based on characteristics of temperament, trainability, physical & mental soundness etc that are necessary to have in a potential high scoring performance dog.

In the early 1980's Hermann Martin became president of the SV. Arminius was his kennel. His brother Walter owned Wienerau. The SV President always judges the working class males at the SIegershow, he is the one who decides which of the working class males are worthy of Sieger & VA ratings. Interesting that this is also the time when dogs of Wienerau & Arminius bloodlines became prominent & dominant in the German show scene!

The custom of gaiting dogs for hours in the German conformation ring also contributed to the widening of the gap between German working and German show lines. Dogs toplines would sag after hours of gaiting, making them appear to have a weak back or faulty topline. The German conformation style's answer to this was the "roached" topline (or whatever your favorite nickname for it is, there are a number of different words used to describe this topline), the topline that curves slightly upward behind the withers. A dog who has an upward arch in his topline cannot sag his topline no matter how tired he gets. 
Solving the problem of dogs getting bored with the longtime gaiting in the German conformation ring led to another trait that further divided show dogs from working dogs.

You can read the actual interview here, where Walter Martin admits the need to use a "crazy" dog in show breeding to counteract boredom and other "disadvantages" of good temperament.

Tribute to Walter Martin

excerpt
WM: 
"Also, you cannot always breed very good character together, if you only breed dogs with nice, easygoing dispositions, after three generations you get only dogs that are so nice and kind and so quiet and perfect that they never like to work and never like to run in the shows." 

RC: "So what do you do to improve character?"
WM: "Every third generation you must bring in an absolute "idiot." (Laughs.) Yes, one with very quick blood, a wild one


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## GSDGenes (Mar 9, 2006)

This is another excellent article that discusses the eras of the GSD including the divided and the undivided era

STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES


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## SREICHERT (Feb 11, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> i have had such a cross - show and working and i will not go there again. This dog got the worse of both worlds. To me, the gsd should only be bred as a working dog.


gsd are a working dog period


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

GSDGenes said:


> This is another excellent article that discusses the eras of the GSD including the divided and the undivided era
> 
> STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES


That was an excellant article! Probably one of the more balanced, logical and unbiased ones I've read. Thanks for posting the link.


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## Blazings (Jan 24, 2011)

> Just to get this out there: I AM NOT LOOKING FOR OR GETTING A DOG RIGHT NOW.





> REMEMBER: I AM LOOKING FOR OR GETTING A DOG NOW.


 Ehh..?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I did a working/show cross last year. The puppies that resulted were/are super. Excellent temperaments, very trainable, very handsome. Most of the puppies had very nice drives, too--retrieving at 8 weeks of age. What I saw was a few pups with higher "thresholds"--so they had the drive, but it took more to kick them into drive. They also were incredibly human oriented and affectionate. A couple were medium energy, one showed LOTS of energy and prey--she's in an experienced SAR home now. 

I also saw dogs with no "forward" defense--they weren't scared or shy, but if they saw something that concerned them, they didn't run *toward* it--they sat and watched. My 100% DDR litter was 4 weeks younger, and they all ran toward anything that was strange/new/scary--very funny difference to see.

I picked a showline male with very good prey drive and temperament--some show dogs have lower prey than others. And my working female is a daughter of a 2x Universal Sieger. 

No matter the bloodline type--it's important that the parents have the characteristics you want to see in the puppies. I was very happy with this cross and it produced some of the *nicest* puppies I've ever had around, just in terms of their personalities and temperaments. They were all excellent with kids, for example--almost intuitively gentle with them.


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## stacey_eight (Sep 20, 2010)

So Christine, would you repeat this breeding? Say in about 2-2.5 years?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have always maintained that if I were to breed a contemporary showline dog, it would be with a DDR dog. I think this match has potential to produce the type of pups Christine outlines in general. This would be strengthening areas of weaknesses created by Showline bottleneck breeding of years, with a dog(DDR) that has strong phenotype breeding over the years thus giving potential for a nice blend. Also, the DDR dogs don't tend to have the drive level that would overload the nerve structure of the showline, while still having very nice structure and anatomy.JMO


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

BlackthornGSD said:


> My 100% DDR litter was 4 weeks younger, and they all ran toward anything that was strange/new/scary--very funny difference to see.


I'm glad you posted this. I've noticed Kopper doing it and had never seen it before. Glad to know he's supposed to do it.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

stacey_eight said:


> So Christine, would you repeat this breeding? Say in about 2-2.5 years?


Ha. Well, no. 

In a couple of years, Hunter will be that much older--she'll either be retired or having her last litter. Also, the puppies with Orus were HUGE at birth and caused problems with the whelping--so that wasn't a good thing for her first litter. I'm not sure the reason behind the size, but I'm thinking it has to do with the size of the showline dogs. (How big is Zeke, btw? I saw Navarre recently and he's almost 80 pounds!)

Additionally, I had a lot of people who didn't want a work-show cross b/c they'd read online how terrible they are....

But in two years, I bet I can find you a little girl you'd love. Maybe out of Hunter's daughter that I will keep one day...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I did a working/show cross last year. The puppies that resulted were/are super. Excellent temperaments, very trainable, very handsome. Most of the puppies had very nice drives, too--retrieving at 8 weeks of age. What I saw was a few pups with higher "thresholds"--so they had the drive, but it took more to kick them into drive. They also were incredibly human oriented and affectionate. A couple were medium energy, one showed LOTS of energy and prey--she's in an experienced SAR home now.


That is EXACTLY the kind of puppy I'd want! I'm not looking any time soon, two is my limit and with luck it will be many years before I'm ready, but they sound just perfect. Were there any coaties in that litter? I love Michelle's Nixie, and like her I'm addicted to the fuzzy ones! :wub:


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Christine, how are the pups maturing? One thing I read/heard about showline/working line crosses, is that often the pups show excellent drives and temperaments, but as they get older and the training venues they are involved in start to bring in more stress (stick hits in Schutzhund, for example), they start to fall apart. 

Or would that be common in some straight working line breedings also?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lucia I've seen that in a lot of straight show lines actually. It's often not an issue of drive (early on pups have prey drive, will do bitework in prey) but not enough nerve to really carry through pressure. They seem to sort of plateau around 18 months or so. Interestingly, some of the working lines lines I've seen recently are more handler sensitive, but less affected by pressure when it comes in bitework or real conflict than most show lines.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Lucia, I didn't do the breeding with schutzhund in mind. I thought that the puppies would make good "starter" or "club" dogs if someone wanted that, but so few people are actually looking for puppies for schutzhund. Right now, the pups are 7 months old--so still quite young. The owners are happy with them. 

I was hoping for dogs who would have the drives and nerves to work and train easily and who also had very nice, sound temperaments. I figured the pups would be great for most sport endeavors and also good for jobs like herding and SAR, which require drive and trainability and soundness but don't necessarily require intense fight drive. I didn't want the intensity and bottomless drive that I get in many of my other litters of all working lines--not everyone can handle that and not everyone wants that.

At the time I did the breeding, I had a couple of very nice "working home only" dogs/pups and I kept having people contact me who wanted them for pet homes. Hunter was turning 4 years old and I didn't want to wait another year for her to have her first litter. So I did the working/show cross to produce some very nice dogs who could work, but didn't _have_ to.


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## stacey_eight (Sep 20, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> (How big is Zeke, btw? I saw Navarre recently and he's almost 80 pounds!)
> 
> 
> But in two years, I bet I can find you a little girl you'd love. Maybe out of Hunter's daughter that I will keep one day...


Zeke was 70 pounds a couple of weeks ago, so not as big as Navarre, but still a nice big boy! We're starting flyball soon, he's going to _LOVE_ it! 

I guess I'll have to be patient and find my husband a girl in the a few years. Had Zeke been older, we'd have been knocking at your door with a crate for Outlaw! She was right up my alley too...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Christine, I'd be interested in finding out how your dogs mature. Sounds like they were exactly what you were hoping to produce. 

I know a top Canadian level, multi-WUSV competitor/breeder who comes up for seminars who is a big proponent in mixing lines. Somewhat of a surprise to me, and challenges my pre-conceived views of the lines. He is presently looking for his next competition dog, and is training, among others, a show/working line cross (though I will brag that he wanted to take Gryffon home with him after our seminar). 

He doesn't like the over-the-top working lines that are all prey, and is very interested in improving the working line's structure. His club has some very good show lines that are capable of competing at National/International level - BUT, the hardness in the show lines and show-line mixes still is lacking. 

Now I'm curious whether showline/working line crosses can work, or whether the lack of hardness in the showlines will always be a limiting factor.


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## stacey_eight (Sep 20, 2010)

To get back on the OP's subject... when I was looking for a puppy, I wanted a dog with enough drive to "do stuff" with, I knew I wanted to play around in agility, rally, flyball etc. But I also wanted a dog who was just awesome to have in the house. We have a young child and having had a Malinois in the past, I just wasn't up to dealing with a dog that was _let's go/let's play/let's work_ all the time. A show line/working line cross is perfect for us. I think it's the best of both worlds.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> Now I'm curious whether showline/working line crosses can work, or whether the lack of hardness in the showlines will always be a limiting factor.


I think it's always going to depend on the individual dogs. There are *some* strong show dogs with defense and fight drive. There are some that have made good police dogs and some that have the hardness and fight drive that you want.

I think you just can't automatically assume the show dogs are going to have that hardness/fight drive, just like you can't assume the working dogs are going to have V conformation.

It also seems like the progeny of show/work crosses are better workers than their parents--so, 1st gen show/work cross bred back to working line--you'll see this not infrequently in some very good dogs. See Chuck, for example: V Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach - German shepherd dog


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Blazings said:


> Ehh..?


It was a typo. Not looking for a dog right now. This thread is old and didn't expect it to be dug up.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate all the information, it really helped.

Christine, its nice to hear of a breeder having a good outcome of a cross. Doesn't Daphne have a American Showline x DDR GSD? 

I won't be getting a dog for a long time, but I have already narrowed down the two lines I would be looking at, West German Showline and DDR. They both have qualities I love and want in a dog. But I will wait until the time comes I will know. 

But once again thanks for all the information everyone!!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Stark is a mix of showlines and working lines.

I can say that in my experience (as many of you know) I have a problem with motivating the dog, once he is motivated then everything is great.

We train in schutzhund, agility and have done rally/obedience classes. He is a great "do everything" dog.. he kind of reminds me of a "jack of all trades" not really specializing in anything but being able to dabble in it all.

He tends to work out of defense but this could be because of a few things, one being the way our TD works with older dogs (we started schH at about a year - he's 22 months now); two, allowing him to mature before putting the pressure on encouraged this. It could be genetics as his sire is not a prey monkey but his mother is. Not really knowledgable enough to make that call. I would say that Stark is a hard dog, as he is able to work through a correction (fair or not), will not back down from a fight and is able to work through any issues on the field without falling to pieces (have seen this with the Mals and some showlines - they close up, turn on the helper, etc.). Now, is he as hard as some of the working lines on the field - no way - but he can hold his own.

His structure is more of a "made for work" like the working lines although he tends to be a looong dog with poor hocks which I attribute to his showline genes. 

Nerve wise I think as he matures he is getting better but there could be some improvement there. He is not fond of children (will tolerate them) and is reactive in some situations - this could be due to age/situation or genetics. I will say that the off spring from the sire who was bred with a Czech female seem to have better nerves than Stark's does. Just my observation.

Would I go with a mix again - no.

Why? Mostly because I believe that Stark's shortcomings are due to his showline genes. Do I love my dog? You bettcha! But I think those wanting to specialize in a sport or have a dog that is going to excell not just 'do' in a particular venue would be better off going with a working line - bred for work.

JMO.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Rem is also half and half, one have is WGSL and the other half made up of West and Easy WL. My breeder had bred her bitch to a WL dog and was unhappy with the result. His energy level and drive are absolutely perfect for my wants and needs at this time in my life. He's like Stark as described above in many ways, although I must say I really haven't had trouble motivating him yet. I'm just starting out with GSDs, just getting into SchH and all of that, and I wanted to avoid a super high drive dog that would just run me ragged with my chronic pain, etc. so this breeding has so far worked out superbly for me. He's not a wuss, he's very brave, determined, independent, and figures things out on his own without need for help. He's been everything I sought and thensome, very happy with him!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Larien said:


> Rem is also half and half, one have is WGSL and the other half made up of West and Easy WL. My breeder had bred her bitch to a WL dog and was unhappy with the result. His energy level and drive are absolutely perfect for my wants and needs at this time in my life. He's like Stark as described above in many ways, although I must say I really haven't had trouble motivating him yet. I'm just starting out with GSDs, just getting into SchH and all of that, a*nd I wanted to avoid a super high drive dog that would just run me ragged* with my chronic pain, etc. so this breeding has so far worked out superbly for me. He's not a wuss, he's very brave, determined, independent, and figures things out on his own without need for help. He's been everything I sought and thensome, very happy with him!


This is what I thought too - that having that lower drive dog would be 'easier' to train... nope. Not how it worked out for me.

I think it was Jason (Ike's owner) that said it best, "I am not a good enough trainer for a lower drive dog" or something along those lines! Haha!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, the lower drive dogs tend to be harder to train than the dog with a reason to work!
A well bred higher drive dog does have an off switch, that is what is most important!!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, the lower drive dogs tend to be harder to train than the dog with a reason to work!
> A well bred higher drive dog does have an off switch, that is what is most important!!


Totally agree!!!!

Hahaha..


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Yep I want a dog with good drives and is pleased to work and train and easy to train. My dogs both have something I want in one dog.


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## Scleropages (Jan 24, 2011)

K2's dam is 50% WGSL, 50% East and West WL. She has great hips (.32/.32) is sweet as can be, and when we visited, she came up inspected, greeted us, and then went back to the couch to chill out. One of the most relaxed GSD's I've met.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Well, that's not really what I meant, lol, Remi has been incredibly easy to train, but his drive doesn't leave us BOTH exhausted is what I'm referring to, not ease of training, that wasn't my issue.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Once the time comes for another puppy I will have everything figured out. I want a little of this and little of that with some of that mixed in. Just won't worry until its time.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Christine, its nice to hear of a breeder having a good outcome of a cross. Doesn't Daphne have a American Showline x DDR GSD?
> 
> 
> 
> > Yes, I do. He is a great dog, easy to motivate. Super prey and food drives. Handler sensitive (which I like) and loves to work for praise. He also has good conformation, although not great (he is steep in the croup and a little east/west in front). I think he will finish his championship and go on to be the really fun obedience dog that I am ready for.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Andaka said:


> Jessiewessie99 said:
> 
> 
> > Christine, its nice to hear of a breeder having a good outcome of a cross. Doesn't Daphne have a American Showline x DDR GSD?
> ...


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