# Why ask if you don't want to hear?



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Why do people ask for advice on what can be serious issues with their GSD's and then not take it. 

I understand that there is a lot of conflicting advice on almost any topic. However a person can take what they want and leave the rest. 

What bothers me is that they often will only thank those that have the opinion they apparently wanted to hear from the beginning. 

Some even get angry.

After a few of those threads it gets harder to want to involve oneself at all.

I'm not an expert at anything but do have some experience with dogs. 

I try most of the time to give thought to my responses. I do admit to going off track at times. 

Others give well thought out responses, only to have the OP's sometimes comeback at people for not giving them what they want to hear. 

What is it with people? If you ask for advice or opinions on any topic from GSD's to buying a new TV you will get them. Why get mad because you don't like some of them. 

If one has all the answers then why ask.

*I want to thank the know-it-alls, the blunt ones, the straight talking with no bs. I've spent a lot of time reading through past postings and all I can say is I appreciate all the advice, answers to problems, suggestions that people have taken the time out of their day to share the knowledge they have. *
 I copied the above from a poster on another thread.

Too bad more people don't feel this way when they ask for advice.


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

As a first time dog owner, I welcome the comments and advice.

We want the best for Joey, and would want to know if we're doing something drastically wrong.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Me too. Sometimes what seems obvious in retrospect just wasn't at the time. As for blunt, I grew up with three older brothers. I can handle blunt just fine.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Because some people only want validation for what they are asking. However I also think that sometimes some people take it a bit do far. IE: The OP asks a question and then people jump their case over stuff that has nothing to do with the question. Then I can see not accepting or wanting the opinions.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I heard a saying once that went something like this "advice is what you ask for when you already know the answer but don't want to accept it".

I think a lot of time people post to get validation instead of real answers.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Because they want an easy solution, not one that requires work. If they are having behavioural problems with their dog, they don't want to hear that they have to change how they handle their dog and change their expectations, and up the training and exercise. That is too much work, and it means that they might have been wrong about stuff, and lots of people don't want to admit that. 

They want an easy solution that won't hurt their ego: Take some of this magic powder, sprinkle it on your dog while chanting this secret magic word, and presto-bingo, your dog is now "normal" and will make you look good! 

That is what they want to hear, and they get upset if no one is willing to share the source of their magic powder and the secret chant words. They don't realize that where people got results with similar problems, it was through being open minded and willing to put in a lot of work. 

But they don't want to bother.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad-- you should try hanging out on fitness and exercise boards.

Question: "How do I lose this beer belly?"
Answer: "Stop drinking beer."
-- I can't do that!

Question: "How do I lose 30lb?"
Answer: "Eat less food. Move around more."
-No, I've tried diet and exercise. Eating less and moving more doesn't work. What ELSE can I do?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> I think a lot of time people post to get validation instead of real answers.


Probably true Jamie but they are going to get real answers, like them or not.

Lucia. I would like some of that magic powder but have never found it. I just keep on trucking, doing it the hard way with many mistakes to teach me.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Jack's Dad-- you should try hanging out on fitness and exercise boards.
> 
> Question: "How do I lose this beer belly?"
> Answer: "Stop drinking beer."
> ...


That would really drive me goofy. :laugh:


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Jack's Dad-- *you should try hanging out on fitness and exercise boards*.
> 
> Question: "How do I lose this beer belly?"
> Answer: "Stop drinking beer."
> ...


Who has time for that? I am too busy jogging and exercising .... either myself, my dog or both.
A tired poster is a good poster.
(now if that were only true):crazy:
===================
Now regarding the OP: The person asking advice has to expect he/she will have to sort out what comes his/er way. The person giving it has to let go of it once given and not expect it to be followed. It is a gift and like a gift there should be no strings or expectations.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

You startin trouble buddy?






I thought that was MY job!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sometimes people don't ask, they are relaying a story, and unsolicited advice is given, or people start an interrogation.

Sometimes people only want to hear confirmation that they are right. And if you do not think they are right, you are some sort of fiend, being mean for not saying nothing at all.

Sometimes people are not willing to do the work behind the advice or spend the money that it will take. 

Sometimes people do not agree with the advice. I mean, just because people get advice here does not mean it is good advice. People need to have a relatively open mind, weigh advice and do what they think is best for their dog and them. 

I mean, you get many answers to a request for advice. 

My dog is pulling, how do I get him to stop?

A1 -- use a prong collar.
A2 -- sign up for obedience classes.
A3 -- use a choke chain, put it on right, and when the dog pulles give him a pop.
A4 -- I don't use a leash on walks.
A5 -- Your dog is dominant, you must alpha roll the dog several times a day so he realizes you are more alpha. Keep him off the furniture, and look up NILIF. 
A6 -- Take him to the vet and have them check his thyroid and his b-vitamin level, I read that somewhere, that low on b-vitamins makes them pull more.
A7 -- Have you considered Carting or Weight Pulling, get him a back pack.
A8 -- Tire him out before you go on the walk. 

Sometimes more than one of the advice-comments is clearly nuts. Sometimes more than one will work, is good advice, but depending on the temperament of the dog or the the temperament of the owner one or more of those will not be a good idea.

I think that sometimes a person can feel overwhelmed by the situation, confused by the advice, and feel defeated or despair.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

gsdraven said:


> I think a lot of time people post to get validation instead of real answers.


The pretty much sums it up right there. People just want to feel validated.

Take for example the recent infamous outdoor kennel thread. All that guy wanted to hear was how great of a carpenter he was.

He posted those pictures wanting to hear the "oooohs" and "aaaahs" about his handy work. When people started to critique and give pointers on how he could improve his set up, he had his little temper-tantrum and stormed off like a little kid.

Back to gsdraven's comment - people just want to feel validated no matter if they're right or wrong.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And if you do not recognize that and validate them whether they are right or wrong, people will tell us to be nicer while they rate us about 6-7 out of ten with ten being the worst on the niceness scale.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> And if you do not recognize that and validate them whether they are right or wrong, people will tell us to be nicer while they rate us about 6-7 out of ten with ten being the worst on the niceness scale.


Now THAT wasn't very nice.
PLEASE try to be nicer.
SOMEONE out there will get their feelings hurt.
Then rant about it.
:spittingcoffee::toasting:opcorn:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

PaddyD said:


> Now THAT wasn't very nice.
> PLEASE try to be nicer.
> SOMEONE out there will get their feelings hurt.
> Then rant about it.
> :spittingcoffee::toasting:opcorn:


I'll have to get some advice on how to be nice.
Of course, I have no intention on taking the advice.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> The pretty much sums it up right there. People just want to feel validated.
> 
> Take for example the recent infamous outdoor kennel thread. All that guy wanted to hear was how great of a carpenter he was.
> 
> ...



Paul. I think the thread you mentioned is an example of where the advice given got off track. I don't blame the guy in that case because the thread quickly went off onto keeping dogs outside in general and all kinds of other stuff.
He asked about his kennel and got a few suggestions and then the thing went crazy. I think it's still going.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> Paul. I think the thread you mentioned is an example of where the advice given got off track. I don't blame the guy in that case because the thread quickly went off onto keeping dogs outside in general and all kinds of other stuff.
> He asked about his kennel and got a few suggestions and then the thing went crazy. I think it's still going.


Yeah, it got off track from what he wanted to hear. If he's going to post a thread about his set up where he's putting his dog ALONE outside year round in a sub par setup, I can't blame anyone for taking that thread off track from what he wanted to hear.

Is it really still going on though? I haven't taken a look for a couple days. I figured that guy was long gone.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> Sometimes people don't ask, they are relaying a story, and unsolicited advice is given, or people start an interrogation.
> 
> Sometimes people only want to hear confirmation that they are right. And if you do not think they are right, you are some sort of fiend, being mean for not saying nothing at all.
> 
> ...


Well if they like answers 1,2,3 and think the others are crazy then they can use the ones they like. They don't need to get hostile with answers 5 thru 8. Those people took their time to respond also.

It's pretty rare when someone just gives a really off the wall answer to a reasonable question.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So is this about a specific post? Has someone been hostile to you Andy? Let me at him, I break his E-key and he won't be able to post anything readable anymore.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Did I hurt your feelings by saying that?  I was only agreeing with another poster who said this wasn't the worst or the nicest.

You're going after my comment because?

C'mon now...be nice. 



selzer said:


> And if you do not recognize that and validate them whether they are right or wrong, people will tell us to be nicer while they rate us about 6-7 out of ten with ten being the worst on the niceness scale.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hey...I'll even send you those links.

It'll be loads of fun....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Did I hurt your feelings by saying that?  I was only agreeing with another poster who said this wasn't the worst or the nicest.
> 
> You're going after my comment because?
> 
> C'mon now...be nice.


Yes it did, to be honest.

I was looking at the face punch site, and if you haven't then, maybe you shouldn't, but you rate us a few steps above that??? What an insult. If you think we are that nasty, then I do not understand why you want to be around us. 

Maybe getting 3 or 4 out of 10 is perfectly ok with you, but in my book it is failing. I don't think we on the whole are failing. If you really see something going on that is failing, than are you notifying? And if it is from people that you don't normally see acting that way, maybe there are reasons that are not apparent to everyone on the board.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Lucy Dog said:


> The pretty much sums it up right there. People just want to feel validated.
> 
> Take for example the recent infamous outdoor kennel thread. All that guy wanted to hear was how great of a carpenter he was.
> 
> ...



Actually, he didnt get upset over people telling him how to improve the kennel, its when people started assuming the dog was going to be neglected that he got upset.

I do believe he thanked selzer and a few people and even mentioned some of the changes he was going to do, such as the type of fencing he was going to to.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I wish you would have told me that right away as I honestly did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings.

I thought 6-7 was fine, middle of the road. People do get fiesty because as someone rightfully pointed out, we are talking about living breathing animals that we care deeply for. Also we all have our days good and bad so sometimes things get out of hand.

That is my reasoning for choosing those numbers and I hope you understand that I didn't mean any ill will by it.

I have seen other forums which are much harsher then this one and hey, if it's all adults and no one takes it personal it's usually not a problem.

Also, every forum seems to have it's own culture, if you will. I notice that folks are very protective of this forum and sensitive to criticism of it and I am NOT saying that is all bad....but sometimes it can inhibit improvements that may be helpful.

I do not post here much (speaking of why I hang around here) for 3 reasons, 1) I know when to stay quiet and pay attention to more knowledgeable people 2) there have been a couple of times when I was joking around that I got stomped on 3) There are plenty of good threads. I don't see it as black and white. 



selzer said:


> Yes it did, to be honest.
> 
> I was looking at the face punch site, and if you haven't then, maybe you shouldn't, but you rate us a few steps above that??? What an insult. If you think we are that nasty, then I do not understand why you want to be around us.
> 
> Maybe getting 3 or 4 out of 10 is perfectly ok with you, but in my book it is failing. I don't think we on the whole are failing. If you really see something going on that is failing, than are you notifying? And if it is from people that you don't normally see acting that way, maybe there are reasons that are not apparent to everyone on the board.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I wish you would have told me that right away as I honestly did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings.
> 
> I thought 6-7 was fine, middle of the road. People do get fiesty because as someone rightfully pointed out, we are talking about living breathing animals that we care deeply for. Also we all have our days good and bad so sometimes things get out of hand.
> 
> ...


I don't think you owe an apology for stating your opinion, you have the right to your opinion.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

selzer said:


> I mean, you get many answers to a request for advice.
> 
> My dog is pulling, how do I get him to stop?
> 
> ...


EXACTLY! Plus, if the poster decides to take Answer 1, the people who suggested Answers 2-8 get offended and mad. "Why did you ask if you weren't going to take MY advice?!?" (Not picking on anyone in particular here).

We all want our advice to be taken, and we all often think that our way is the right way. But... it isn't the right way for everyone.

Example: I feed raw... but have to understand that raw just isn't right for everyone, and need to respect their decision. If I comment on a post about a dog with allergy issues and recommend raw, and the person comes back and says, "Gee, I really am not ready to go raw," or "It grosses me out" or "I just can't go against my vet's advice," I need to respect that and be ready to recommend a good kibble instead. (Although in the case of the vet excuse, I might explain why vets recommend against raw). If the person rejects my kibble advice and says, "But I really want to feed Eukanuba, Iams, etc., I need to respect that and perhaps try to recommend a specific formula within those brands that might be better than the current formula. If they still don't want to change well, hey... I did my best.

(And as a random side note, this forum really is pretty nice. I'm on a non-breed specific forum where I would say it's "nicer" (for lack of a better word) than here, but it's also really easy to get yourself suspended/banned, so there's the tradeoff. The other forum is a very friendly environment... but this one is great, too, in a different way. I've found that breed specific forums tend to be more... intense. Certain breeds of dogs attract certain types of owners and some are more... outspoken than others. LOL).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I wish you would have told me that right away as I honestly did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings.
> 
> I thought 6-7 was fine, middle of the road. People do get fiesty because as someone rightfully pointed out, we are talking about living breathing animals that we care deeply for. Also we all have our days good and bad so sometimes things get out of hand.
> 
> ...


I do not know how you could get thousands of people together and make them less abrasive than this site is. Rating us at 30-40% is kind of a slap in the face. Opinions can be held and stated, but I think if someone feels we fail overall, I don't know. 

I accept that you did not mean it as a personal insult, but it just came over as pretty nasty in my opinion. Is that funny or what? Someone coming across as nasty because they think we as a site are nasty. 

I think there are people who just let things come out however they do on here. But I think a far greater number consider how they say something, and take into consideration whether someone is new, or inexperienced as a dog owner. I think that for those of us who try to say what we feel needs to be said in a way that might be well received, 30 -40% is pretty low.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, you made that stepford wife comment in the other thread and I honestly thought you were just joking with me and didn't take it personal. (hence my comment about good natured fun). So I guess it's all in how a particular individual perceives things.

I've participated on quite a few sites over the years for horses, trucks, political and gardening. 

Compared to the gardening site this site is rough, compared to the truck site you guys are not that rough and well some of the political sites I would rate at 11+! (I get involved from time to time! BUT I never take it personally) It's all in how you look at it. 

I think, FWIW, as I've read the 'I'm Leaving' threads here one of the consistent themes is people tend to feel 'ganged up on' and I have to honestly say there's some truth to that observation. I think if it's been awhile since someone here has been a newbie it may not be noticed as much.

Now can that be changed? I don't know maybe it can maybe not......but I do agree with what you say below in red: 



selzer said:


> I do not know how you could get thousands of people together and make them less abrasive than this site is. Rating us at 30-40% is kind of a slap in the face. Opinions can be held and stated, but I think if someone feels we fail overall, I don't know.
> 
> I accept that you did not mean it as a personal insult, but it just came over as pretty nasty in my opinion. Is that funny or what? Someone coming across as nasty because they think we as a site are nasty.
> 
> I think there are people who just let things come out however they do on here. But I think a far greater number consider how they say something, and take into consideration whether someone is new, or inexperienced as a dog owner. I think that for those of us who try to say what we feel needs to be said in a way that might be well received, 30 -40% is pretty low.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Take some of this magic powder, sprinkle it on your dog while chanting this secret magic word, and presto-bingo, your dog is now "normal" and will make you look good!

That's the same kind of powder that helps you lose weight. LOL


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> EXACTLY! Plus, if the poster decides to take Answer 1, the people who suggested Answers 2-8 get offended and mad. "Why did you ask if you weren't going to take MY advice?!?" (Not picking on anyone in particular here).
> 
> We all want our advice to be taken, and we all often think that our way is the right way. But... it isn't the right way for everyone.


I don't care if they take my advice or anyone else's. I just think unless someone is out and out nasty right from the begining they at least could thank people for there thoughts, ideas , and then do whatever the **** they want. Don't start arguing back because you didn't hear what you wanted to. 

Example. My dog growled and raised hackles at my sisters baby, please help.

Advice. Keep the dog away from the baby and find a trainer to asses your dog. It might be fear agression.

Response. My dog is not afraid of anything and all my dogs have been around babies and this one is going to be that way too.

This example isn't all that far out there, I've seen things just like it and worse.


Emoore's example about fitness was great.

Selzer. There have been several threads by new people along these lines and that is what prompted this thread.

I think anyone who is on here fairly regularly is fair game for a few insults but new people asking for advice and getting irritated when they get it. No way. 

I really believe in kindness toward new people but sometimes it just doesn't seem to work.

I am also aware that sometimes it's the other way and new people get hammered unjustly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Well, you made that stepford wife comment in the other thread and I honestly thought you were just joking with me and didn't take it personal. (hence my comment about good natured fun). So I guess it's all in how a particular individual perceives things.
> 
> I've participated on quite a few sites over the years for horses, trucks, political and gardening.
> 
> ...



I have seen some newbies get angry and leave, usually stamping their feet on their way out and leaving a goodbye cruel world exit post. Sometimes those people get mad totally because they asked a question and did not get the answers they wanted. Oh well. Would we rather they stick around and learn more? Sure.

But sometimes you are not going to get that if you bend over backwards. I swear on some of those threads, I AM bending over backwards. Normally it happens when people come on wanting to breed their too young bitch or their unpapered dog,

So you bring this question up to people that not only have GSDs, but are a bit nutty about them, spending hours on the internet talking to other people off their rockers about GSDs, some of them breeders, and lots of them (breeders included) somehow involved in rescue. Some of them have been around the internet-block a few times, and some of the young and fiery about everything.

So the person asks there question. "How do I know what day to breed on?" It is not the Newbie Head Hunters that answers, it is the Energetic Breed Guardians. They ask how old is the dog, what titles it has, what makes her breed-worthy, did the x-ray, and the list goes on. 

The Rescue people usually adds a plug about all the dogs dying in shelters. The breeders ask them how they will find homes. And some of the people answer their question with a bit of unasked for information that they should probably consider. 

At some point during this the newbie feels picked on and becomes angry. And often they try to justify breeding the dog and often bury themselves farther, or they start pelting abuse at the people asking the questions. 

At this point, the Be-Nice-To-Newbies gang comes along and roundly abuses everyone on the thread. At which point the OP, feeling validated in his being picked on by these people, posts his I-Hate-You-All thread and departs. 

How do you avoid stuff like that? Should everyone just answer his question and take it for granted that he will be responsible in his breeding decisions and his placement of the puppies? Could breeders and rescue-people do that in good conscience? 

We could ban all topics that might be controversial, like Breeding, Various Lines, Training, Nutrition, and every other thing that makes this site worth coming to at all. 

Middle of the road would be 5 if we are talking a tape measure -- half the sites out there are nicer, half the sites out there are nastier. You chose 6-7, which is not middle of the road it is deliberately below average. 

My Stepford comment has been made by me many times when I feel people expect us to keep everything happy happy joy joy, don't say anything if you can't say something nice. This site would be ruined if we adopted that attitude. Controversial topics are important, hard things sometimes need to be said. Dancing around topics instead of being direct is sometimes counter-productive. And some people who do not like the answers or the questions they get here, are going to leave.

And for all of that, I think we are pretty respectful.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...and since I'm in trouble anyhow! (tell me if I'm not selzer!) I'll toss my .02 in-

As to the OPs question people come to our training classes and don't listen to the instructor and they are paying for the advice. Then when they don't get results they blame the trainer. 

I don't know for sure why this is. I actually work with dogs for a living (not a trainer though!) and a lot people just do not like to be told how to train or care for their dogs. 

Something about dogs (and kids) there's a line that is easily crossed and people shut down. 

IMHO I think there is a deep need to feel connected and challenging a person's knowledge (or lack thereof) challenges that connection.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ...and since I'm in trouble anyhow! (tell me if I'm not selzer!) I'll toss my .02 in-
> 
> As to the OPs question people come to our training classes and don't listen to the instructor and they are paying for the advice. Then when they don't get results they blame the trainer.
> 
> ...


Isn't that the truth. You all would have watched me (maybe, for those of you who watch it anyhow) and my family with Brutus on The Dog Whisperer show-long time ago, if weren't for the fact that I am convinced that once Mr. Milan begins using his techniques on our dog-we'd probably throw him out of our house. So you are right about the fact that there is a fine line….


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think I am experiencing thread bleed-through again. 

Andy, I think it is human nature. 

People avoid things they do not want to see. Why is the first question this person had about the dog something critical in the first place? They refused to see anything negative until it was impossible to completely overlook. 

Once they posted it, they felt better because they did something. But then the incident kind of fades or they start making excuses up for it, and it is hard to take anything negative said about your kid or your dog. So they start getting very defensive. So defensive they can become rude and are incapable of letting any good stuff information in.

I don't know the answer. Try not to take it personally. Do what you can. Keep it short and simple.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ...*and since I'm in trouble anyhow! (tell me if I'm not selzer!*) I'll toss my .02 in- Nope, I just think we differ greatly on how much improvement this site needs.
> 
> As to the OPs question people come to our training classes and don't listen to the instructor and they are paying for the advice. Then when they don't get results they blame the trainer.
> 
> ...


That, the bolded, is interesting. I think that people are often skeptical that something will work with their dog, because, you know, my problem is worse than anyone else's problem, and needs something spectacular to fix it. If they do not buy into it, it makes it almost impossible that it will work. 

They do not have success and blame the trainer because the trainer gave them advice that did not work and they knew all along it wouldn't work, and surprise, it didn't.

Thanks for reminding me why I do NOT want to go into training other people how to train their dogs. 

But are we here trying to feel connected? And if we are not as smart, as knowledgeable, as talented, as hard-working about and with our dogs our connection is challenged? So challenging a person's ideas about their dog somehow threatens their connection to GSD people on this site and perhaps in general. I guess I really have to think on that some.


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

It's pretty much human nature that if you make someone feel stupid, they are immediately on the defensive.

There is one moderator here who answers a lot of newbies with some videos and links that pertain to the person's general question. Personally, I think that is A LOT more helpful than the answers that basically boil down to "Yer a lazy piece of dog poopie who should never own another living thing". 

So many people - myself included - are just NOT INFORMED of some of things taken for granted by those who've owned multiple dogs, or those who breed, etc. 

Guess what? I thought that unless dogs were being bred for show or work purposes, then any two purebred dogs (of the same breed) could be bred. 

I've never known anyone who breeds dogs, never even had a discussion with someone who knew someone who bred dogs. 

That doesn't make me stupid, it makes me uninformed. Unfortunately, I am not in the minority. I would bet if you asked someone who doesn't have pets where they would buy a dog or a cat, many would say "a pet shop", without the knowledge that puppy mills are involved. 

I'm not 100% in agreement with those who think that people just want validation - some, sure, but it's not so far fetched to think that a lot of people are just approaching it from the "uninformed" stance. 

tl;dr Try nice first.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

While your examples are not without merit they are biased to support your argument. I do a lot of reading here and there's been times where I thought a newbie was treated with unnecessary roughness, considering this is not a political debate forum! I know my expectation was different when I first started posting here, I didn't expect it to be quite as fiesty...but I also have a pretty thick skin so I just rolled with the punches as I figured things out. 

I don't think 6-7 was such a horrible thing to say and I agreed with the poster I quoted that it's not set in stone. The truth is people on both sides, those who are knowledgeable and those who don't know better get frustrated and angry. So both sides, in their own way, go stomping off. Yin and Yang.

Do what you can, yes.

Say what you can, yes.

....then let it go because that is all you can do. 









selzer said:


> I have seen some newbies get angry and leave, usually stamping their feet on their way out and leaving a goodbye cruel world exit post. Sometimes those people get mad totally because they asked a question and did not get the answers they wanted. Oh well. Would we rather they stick around and learn more? Sure.
> 
> But sometimes you are not going to get that if you bend over backwards. I swear on some of those threads, I AM bending over backwards. Normally it happens when people come on wanting to breed their too young bitch or their unpapered dog,
> 
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What does tl;dr mean?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> I was looking at the face punch site, and if you haven't then, maybe you shouldn't, but you rate us a few steps above that??? What an insult. If you think we are that nasty, then I do not understand why you want to be around us.


It's not an insult, it's just the opinion of someone who obviously hasn't been around very many internet message boards. Anyone who thinks that this board is a 6-7 on a scale of nastiness, needs to get out more. Seriously. I am suprised that this board is as nice as it is. It could be sooOooOOoo much worse. I think the mods do a pretty good job of keeping the place clean and getting rid of troublemakers. 

It also helps that political discussions aren't allowed.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> What does tl;dr mean?


too long; didn't read


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Andy, I think when people are offered good advice and don't take it - they are fools. I fell into this category recently. I board my horse on a 200 acre farm. The farm manager is an older man who knows more about horses than I ever will. My horse sustained an injury - took a chunk out of her lower leg. I got John to look at it. He said, "Don't call the vet. She won't do anything about it." I was concerned, so wound up calling the vet anyway. I
had not worked with this vet before and was not impressed. She cut off the flap of skin and scrubbed the leg. Left us some antibiotics. She told us to go ahead and put some Swat on the wound - OUR swat. She asked if we had an oral syringe. We do - at home, which is an hour round trip. The antibiotic was only as a precaution, since there was no infection, but I still thought it would have been better to start it right away. The vet was back, yesterday, as all the farm horses were getting shots and dewormed. She checked my horses' leg again. Told the staff the wound was oozing, to put the horse in a stall and tell us to bandage it. Well - I was there a few hours before the vet. There was no oozing. My daughter went up a few hours after the vet and there was no oozing. She put the horse back in the field, because she really does not like to be in a stall and was very stressed.

So yeah - the old guy gave me great advice. I KNOW him. I know he knows what he is talking about Did I listen? No! I spent $160.00 on a worthless vet visit. I might not know everything, but I can tell when something is swollen and oozing and when it isn't. 

I think that is another problem here with people not taking advice - too much confidence in the vet. Vets and doctors - I'm thinking about avoiding both.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

selzer said:


> That, the bolded, is interesting. I think that people are often skeptical that something will work with their dog, because, you know, my problem is worse than anyone else's problem, and needs something spectacular to fix it. If they do not buy into it, it makes it almost impossible that it will work.
> 
> They do not have success and blame the trainer because the trainer gave them advice that did not work and they knew all along it wouldn't work, and surprise, it didn't.
> 
> ...


 
I'm cool with that (the red part in your earlier response), I can respect your opinion and I do honestly enjoy reading your posts!

On the topic of being a trainer, it frustrates me just to watch the trainer try to get through to some people. One person in obedience had a really sweet happy lab only 7 months old. The young man, in his 20s or so, really was yanking and cranking and correcting the lab with little or no reward. Our trainer kept telling him, "I love this dog, this dog WANTS to please you, reward him when he gives you the behaviour you want.'

The young man kept frowning and yanking and cranking.

Finally by the third class as we were all getting our 'homework' for the week at the end of the class, the trainer stood in front of the young man and said in a stronger somewhat louder tone of voice: "This dog is great, This dog will give you 150%, He WANTS to please you. Trust me there are people who work so hard to get what this dog wanting to give you. DON'T RUIN IT!." 

The young man hasn't been back to class.

Meanwhile those of us who listen and practice the way the trainer has taught us are getting really good results.

Go figure.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sunstreaked said:


> It's pretty much human nature that if you make someone feel stupid, they are immediately on the defensive.
> 
> There is one moderator here who answers a lot of newbies with some videos and links that pertain to the person's general question. Personally, I think that is A LOT more helpful than the answers that basically boil down to "Yer a lazy piece of dog poopie who should never own another living thing".
> 
> ...


I think that it depends on your personality. Some people might see those videos as very helpful, and others might get more out of written instructions. It depends on whether you are a visual learner or a audio learner. And it depends on other things in your personality. 

I do not think that anyone ever suggested that EVERYONE asks for advice and then totally rejects it all. I think that when they do, it can be for a variety of reasons, and I believe that in some it is human nature to avoid unpleasant or hard things. 

I am sorry it came across that way if it did.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Uh-Oh you're coming in late on this.

I do participate on political forums, they're a lot of fun. 





Freestep said:


> It's not an insult, it's just the opinion of someone who obviously hasn't been around very many internet message boards. Anyone who thinks that this board is a 6-7 on a scale of nastiness, needs to get out more. Seriously. I am suprised that this board is as nice as it is. It could be sooOooOOoo much worse. I think the mods do a pretty good job of keeping the place clean and getting rid of troublemakers.
> 
> It also helps that political discussions aren't allowed.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Sunstreaked said:


> Guess what? I thought that unless dogs were being bred for show or work purposes, then any two purebred dogs (of the same breed) could be bred.
> 
> I've never known anyone who breeds dogs, never even had a discussion with someone who knew someone who bred dogs.
> 
> That doesn't make me stupid, it makes me uninformed. Unfortunately, I am not in the minority. I would bet if you asked someone who doesn't have pets where they would buy a dog or a cat, many would say "a pet shop", without the knowledge that puppy mills are involved.


Exactly.

I had a friend who wanted a Great Dane puppy, had always wanted one, and finally ended up getting one from one of the worst kind of backyard breeders (he didn't ask me first). He couldn't figure out why the pup had all these health problems and why the breeder wasn't being helpful. I said, "That's because you bought your dog from a backyard breeder." He said, "Well if you're not supposed to buy from a pet shop, and you're not supposed to buy from a backyard breeder, where on Earth are you supposed to get a pet??"

Honestly. He had no idea. And this was a college-educated architect in his fifties.

With people like that, I am never sure where to start... but I try hard to contain my rage and bite my tongue, before I say anything.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I'm cool with that (the red part in your earlier response), I can respect your opinion and I do honestly enjoy reading your posts!
> 
> On the topic of being a trainer, it frustrates me just to watch the trainer try to get through to some people. One person in obedience had a really sweet happy lab only 7 months old. The young man, in his 20s or so, really was yanking and cranking and correcting the lab with little or no reward. Our trainer kept telling him, "I love this dog, this dog WANTS to please you, reward him when he gives you the behaviour you want.'
> 
> ...


My trainer has the patience of Job. Another reason I do not want to train people how to train their dogs. I would be smacking them upside the head and asking "can you hear me now?"


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Selzer

Look at the thread "puppy not respecting us" posts 19 and 20 and from 41 on. At one point I suggest that this pup is cooped up in a apt and can't they find somewhere to allow the pup some off leash time in a safe place. They respond they live in the city and there is nowhere like that close. Later someone who actually lives nere them mentions all the places where they can take their pup. Guess what, they know all about that and are going to those places as we speak. What the heck is that. 
This is where I start thinking oh, oh wasting time. There is a lot of good advice from people who know more than me in that thread and a good portion of that was rejected. Also the dog was home with mom who didn't really want it anyway. Then a dad who was not mentioned at all turns up later to actually be the one who wanted the pup,
It could be a soap opera, The dogs of our lives.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL! I agree with you 100%.

I asked my trainer how he puts up with it too.

I gotta run, dogs to take care of.  

You have a good evening!




selzer said:


> My trainer has the patience of Job. Another reason I do not want to train people how to train their dogs. I would be smacking them upside the head and asking "can you hear me now?"


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Uh-Oh you're coming in late on this.


Forgive me if this has already been ironed out between all parties, but I am constantly amazed when people think this message board is "nasty", or get offended by the replies they receive. Go to a pit bull forum sometime...
it's not just the dogs that like to fight.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I will go look. I think a few days ago I looked and the puppy was so young that I thought, Lord! I was not so patient to keep going back, will do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> LOL! I agree with you 100%.
> 
> I asked my trainer how he puts up with it too.
> 
> ...


You, too.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

A pittie forum could be rough - but try a diesel truck forum, Ford vs Dodge!!!   



Freestep said:


> Forgive me if this has already been ironed out between all parties, but I am constantly amazed when people think this message board is "nasty", or get offended by the replies they receive. Go to a pit bull forum sometime...
> it's not just the dogs that like to fight.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

When someone says, My dog is lunging and pulling at other dogs. What should i do?

They are asking for people they do not know for their opinions, or advice.

The advice could be good or bad or both. They are under no obligation to take it. 

I do however think they should be gracious enough to appreciate that strangers took time out of their lives to offer it.

I probably should have included the other side wher the OP gets blasted for being such a dumb ass. I got my last GSD mix from a ad on a sign at Wally World.
One of the best dogs I ever had. Didn't give a moments thought to BYB's.
I would have been worked over for that I'm sure


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

selzer said:


> I am sorry it came across that way if it did.



Selzer, I am absolutely NOT referring to any specific person here! Please don't apologize - I was trying to make my "Yer a lazy piece of dog..." as far as possible from what anybody ever actually said.


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

Freestep said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Honestly. He had no idea. And this was a college-educated architect in his fifties.
> 
> With people like that, I am never sure where to start... but I try hard to contain my rage and bite my tongue, before I say anything.



Freestep, it doesn't help those of us who don't know things to have people mad at us. 

Nobody is born with knowledge about something, we all learn as life takes us. There are probably things your friend knows that he would be astonished that you don't (and obviously vice versa). 

Asking questions is good.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I worked all day, so am catching up must say , you guys/gals have kept this thread very interesting and I don't have to edit ONE THING))) 

I don't think this board is as nasty as some may think it is,,my gosh, go post on the gsd database, now THAT can get downright nasty but it's a good learning tool as well.

I try to be nice, but I will be the first to admit, I can definately lose my patience and probably get snarky..sometimes I bite my tongue, and my dogs will hear me saying all kinds of things TO the computer screen that I have to refrain from typing..

All in all, I think you can get some pretty darn good info off this site it's up to the poster whether they want to use it or not

GROUP HUG EVERYONE!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I worked all day, so am catching up must say , you guys/gals have kept this thread very interesting and I don't have to edit ONE THING)))
> 
> I don't think this board is as nasty as some may think it is,,my gosh, go post on the gsd database, now THAT can get downright nasty but it's a good learning tool as well.
> 
> ...


I was going to post a smiley for group hug a while back, and this was what I had:









Maybe that fits somewhere in the conversation, or maybe that was the other thread


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

LOL! We can always count on Diane for a Group Hug!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thread is getting too lovey, dovey.
I'm starting to think it's headed toward namby-pamby land.

Maybe when people ask for advice, we should just run the namby-pamby commercial. Someone had it up the other day but I don't remember where.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I think this is my new FAVORITE THREAD. It pretty much ran the gamut.
Except, no blood was shed, dayum.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Sunstreaked said:


> Freestep, it doesn't help those of us who don't know things to have people mad at us.


The anger isn't directed at YOU, it is directed at the BYBs, pet stores, and otherwise unscruplulous puppy sellers who got a hold of you before I did. And then I get frustrated, because now I have to find a way to tell you where you went wrong, without offending you.

I might be mad at you if you know me personally, and you bought a puppy without consulting me first, or--even worse--consulted me first, and then went against every piece of advice I had to give. 

I had a client that did that--she was going to get a rescue dog, and I was helping to facilitate that, then she turned around and bought a "designer" puppy online for $1800. A dog which is way oversize what it was represented to be, and has terrible allergies and skin problems and must be kept on prednisone so that she doesn't tear herself new hot spots every day (oh yeah, and I got blamed for the hot spots at first).

Yeah. I was mad at her for that one. But I was polite and didn't show my anger and frustration. I waited for her to come to her own conclusions, which she did, but it took her a couple of years. At first she blamed me, the groomer, that her Cocka-poo-whatever dog's coat was not coming in like a poodle, and why couldn't I make it look like a poodle? And then the whole hot spot thing--you know when you clip an animal, you can then see the hot spots that were already there? Yeah. She actually stopped coming to me for a while because she was sure I was doing something to cause the hot spots.  Finally, after the other groomers couldn't solve her dog's problems either, she came crawling back.

Anyway... See? Don't get me started.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL! Namby pamby land. 

My dad thinks I'm nuts now since I am bursting out laughing at my computer screen.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I think the mamby pamby commercial is in the opposing (or is it complimentary... I can't decide) thread to this one... the one about being nice.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Taaa daa!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So is this site the namby pamby GSD site?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I LOVE that commercial!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks GSDGunner:

When someone says, My GSD wants to eat the neighbors baby. Please Help!!!!

The first person to respond, just show them namby-pamby land. That should put a stop to those real quick.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Thanks GSDGunner:
> 
> When someone says, My GSD wants to eat the neighbors baby. Please Help!!!!
> 
> The first person to respond, just show them namby-pamby land. That should put a stop to those real quick.


:toasting:


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## S19977 (Feb 19, 2011)

GSDolch said:


> Because some people only want validation for what they are asking. However I also think that* sometimes some people take it a bit do far. IE: The OP asks a question and then people jump their case over stuff that has nothing to do with the question.* Then I can see not accepting or wanting the opinions.


There is some good info to be had on this board. But the above is one thing I don't like about this board. You summed it up perfectly GSDolch. There are a lot of people on this board that like to pass judgement or make snide remarks. I try to act online, how I would if I was standing right in front of the person. Months ago I posted something about giving my GSD away due to a divorce. I had people accusing me of lying about my divorce :crazy:

I received a lot of emails from board members, apologizing on behalf of the "know it alls" after that. The good outweighs the bad on this board, thankfully. I really only come here for questions etc.. If I want to shoot the breeze, I'll do that in person with a friend


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Freestep said:


> It's not an insult, it's just the opinion of someone who obviously hasn't been around very many internet message boards. Anyone who thinks that this board is a 6-7 on a scale of nastiness, needs to get out more. Seriously. I am suprised that this board is as nice as it is. It could be sooOooOOoo much worse. I think the mods do a pretty good job of keeping the place clean and getting rid of troublemakers.
> 
> It also helps that political discussions aren't allowed.


My running site has a forum on it with the warning: "Enter At Your Own Risk". Could it get any clearer than that? 

And still, n00bs come on and freak out when they post something that they get flamed for. Usually, it's all a test to see if they can respond with some witty banter, handle the "hazing", and become a regular. 

Helps us weed out the soft ones.


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## overtgabby (Aug 2, 2010)

How about all the people who ask for Vet advice, and get mad when you tell them .. Take him to a Vet? Get that all the time in Dog Chat


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

You are asked to look at a house . Question - do you like the colour of my shutters (or curtains) . 
Do you say yes the green is quite lovely, or do you point out that there are flames jumping out the window and the house is on fire.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

carmspack said:


> You are asked to look at a house . Question - do you like the colour of my shutters (or curtains) .
> Do you say yes the green is quite lovely, or do you point out that there are flames jumping out the window and the house is on fire.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Good one Carmen!!!!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

:thumbup:



Castlemaid said:


> Because they want an easy solution, not one that requires work. If they are having behavioural problems with their dog, they don't want to hear that they have to change how they handle their dog and change their expectations, and up the training and exercise. That is too much work, and it means that they might have been wrong about stuff, and lots of people don't want to admit that.
> 
> They want an easy solution that won't hurt their ego: Take some of this magic powder, sprinkle it on your dog while chanting this secret magic word, and presto-bingo, your dog is now "normal" and will make you look good!
> 
> ...


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

maybe we can start a new topic section called Namby Pamby Land- Those who want nothing but validation or their egos stroked can post in there. 

No negative responses from anyone- tell them what they want to hear or don't respond..... for some reason I have a feeling that section will be a ghost town.....:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: NO RESPONSES whatsoever

sorry its late- I have amused myself....


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Dooney's Mom said:


> maybe we can start a new topic section called Namby Pamby Land- Those who want nothing but validation or their egos stroked can post in there.
> 
> *No negative responses from anyone*- tell them what they want to hear or don't respond..... for some reason I have a feeling that section will be a ghost town.....:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: *NO RESPONSES whatsoever
> *
> sorry its late- I have amused myself....


You got that right-if there can be no negative responses-whatever would anyone have to say???? We all know that the threads with the






are the ones that get the most views. I don't know why people complain about the controversy that occurs-just look at the views that those threads get-that is the answer. People love them, even those complaining about them love them.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

this is what I think about that.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm a member of several forums. This forum is the nicest out of all of them. 

Trust me.....most forums have rules about the same question asked over and over again. If you happen to be one of the unlucky ones that doesn't read the RULES....and you post a question that's been asked a million times....you will get bashed pretty harsh or ignored. Some boards encouage members to be snarky, some don't. That's why it's always best to search around and read before posting.

I personally think it's hard for some people to gage the "tone" of some body's question and response. I've seen some responses where somebody sounds like they are just joking...and another person takes it the wrong way.

I think some people ask the questions b/c they want to know and learn. Sure, some don't take the advice. I also think some don't want to take their dog to the vet even though they KNOW the dog should see a vet. They are probably looking for a quick, cheap solution without paying the vet money. Same goes for the training. Like somebody else said.....they want a magic pill to fix the dog that's cheap.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm new to this forum, and I'd be the first to say that any of my concerns were addressed in a courteous, and informative manner. Keep in mind, this is an open forum, and some people speak as a professional, and some strictly from experience. It's YOUR duty, to differentiate what it is you need to take from one's advice. 
Do you want a professional opinion? Or do you want "_back yard Betty the breeder's_" experience? Both could be very beneficial.

As far the nastiness or tone goes, I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing what you're saying. I came here with an open mind to make friends, and share my experiences of owning one of the greatest breed of dogs, with those that have "been there, and done that".

Sorry, but I have to give this place a +1.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This is just my little ole opinion, but traffic drives revenue. Revenue helps keep this site up and running for everyone (yes?).

Therefore it would behoove everyone who appreciates and enjoys this site to take it a little easier on the newbies, at least at first.

I think most people know if they join up with a political forum or gun forum it's going to rough and tumble but a site about dogs...eh not so much.




JakodaCD OA said:


> I worked all day, so am catching up must say , you guys/gals have kept this thread very interesting and I don't have to edit ONE THING)))
> 
> I don't think this board is as nasty as some may think it is,,my gosh, go post on the gsd database, now THAT can get downright nasty but it's a good learning tool as well.
> 
> ...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> This is just my little ole opinion, but traffic drives revenue. Revenue helps keep this site up and running for everyone (yes?).
> 
> Therefore it would behoove everyone who appreciates and enjoys this site to take it a little easier on the newbies, at least at first.


Actually, since the threads that contain arguments tend to go on the longest, have the most views, and drive the most traffic.... wouldn't it behoove us to argue MORE? 



> I think most people know if they join up with a political forum or gun forum it's going to rough and tumble but a site about dogs...eh not so much.


Are you kidding? Any discussion forum about animals--living, breathing beings--is going to get hotter than politics. Whether it's dogs, cats, horses, or even chickens, pet and animal forums are notoriously nasty. That's why this board seems so tame to me.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Freestep said:


> Actually, since the threads that contain arguments tend to go on the longest, have the most views, and drive the most traffic.... wouldn't it behoove us to argue MORE?


LOL!! true that, to a certain extent. 

I don't think these threads drive the majority of traffic to the site and keep newbies here....tho

This is actually bleed over from a thread that was specifically about newbies so the discussion has been generalized.




> Are you kidding? Any discussion forum about animals--living, breathing beings--is going to get hotter than politics. Whether it's dogs, cats, horses, or even chickens, pet and animal forums are notoriously nasty. That's why this board seems so tame to me.


Nope I'm not kidding. I've participated on Dressage forums, general horse information forums, truck forums, gun forums, general discussion forums and have been a moderator too. (in edit oh except parenting forums, apparently those can be pretty rough!! LOL)

I have to say, an interesting phenomenon I've noticed, forums that don't have rules tend to self moderate. 

(where's the little devil smiley when you need him, hehehe)


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I have to say, an interesting phenomenon I've noticed, forums that don't have rules tend to self moderate.


I used to participate on a forum for a rock band. When that forum wasn't moderated, it went to **** in a handbasket. That was by far one of the nastiest forums I have ever experienced; it took flameproof panties to survive that community. And I knew of other bands' message boards that were so bad, the band eventually took them down.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I have to be honest, I've never made a foray into that genre of forums. I will take your word for it!

(I'm more of a Blues kind of gal...... 



 )



Freestep said:


> I used to participate on a forum for a rock band. When that forum wasn't moderated, it went to **** in a handbasket. That was by far one of the nastiest forums I have ever experienced; it took flameproof panties to survive that community. And I knew of other bands' message boards that were so bad, the band eventually took them down.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Freestep said:


> *Are you kidding?* Any discussion forum about animals--living, breathing beings--is going to get hotter than politics. Whether it's dogs, cats, horses, or even chickens, pet and animal forums are notoriously nasty. That's why this board seems so tame to me.


You seem to be under the impression that your experience is everyone elses experience. I've been on plenty of animal boards and this board is very much *not* the tamest one to me.

I have found that living and non living does NOT make a difference.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDolch said:


> You seem to be under the impression that your experience is everyone elses experience. I've been on plenty of animal boards and this board is very much *not* the tamest one to me.


I already said that others' experience must not be the same as mine, if they think this board is particularly nasty. 

What I'm getting at is this: please appreciate the job that the mods do in keeping this place mainly civil. It could be so much worse.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Freestep said:


> I already said that others' experience must not be the same as mine, if they think this board is particularly nasty.


Starting a sentence with "Are you kidding!" when someones opinion is different than yours doesn't really relay that message. Just saying how it comes across is all, even if its not meant to be that way. People seem to be upset about Gwens opinions..if this board is like you say it is then *why* is her opinion even an issue? I've been here a long time and I tend to agree with her, although I think it varies sometimes with the time limits.



> What I'm getting at is this: please appreciate the job that the mods do in keeping this place mainly civil. It could be so much worse.


Yes, it could be much worse, but that doesn't mean its the nicest board out there. From my experiences its neither worst nor best, also speaking from not going to every board in the existence. Saying its not the worst or best really isn't this awful thing people are making it out to be.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDolch said:


> Yes, it could be much worse, but that doesn't mean its the nicest board out there.


I never said it was the nicest.

If it isn't nice *enough* for your particular taste, well... you can't please everyone. I personally think the swear filter is silly, but it's not my board.

I used to moderate a message board and one thing I learned is that no matter what you do, someone's not happy. Either you're too permissive, or not permissive enough, or too harsh, or not harsh enough, or someone's mad because someone else got moderated, or someone's mad because they got moderated and someone else didn't, blah blah blah ad infinitum.

It's a thankless job.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I've learned to not argue on specifics on any forum......it's just not worth it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> I've learned to not argue on specifics on any forum......it's just not worth it.


Robin. Could you bemore specific about not arguing specifics. 

Seriously, a lot of breeeders know more about GSD's than the average owner but they do tend not to involve themselves in some of the threads about problem dogs,

Is that because they want to stay above the fray? People might see them in a negative light and that could affect their business or what? 
They are usually people with years of experience but don't usually respond to, "My GSD tries to bite kids all the time. What should I do?"

Seems a lot of breeders raise, train and title dogs but stay away from those type of questions. Why?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jack's Dad said:


> Robin. Could you bemore specific about not arguing specifics.
> 
> Seriously, a lot of breeeders know more about GSD's than the average owner but they do tend not to involve themselves in some of the threads about problem dogs,
> 
> ...


I will tell you why I don't participate much more then to say get a behaviorist, or trainer, I cannot speak for others.

My first GSD was an epic failure on my part, and while he never bit a child or anyone other than me, I did end up putting him down as his aggressiveness was increasing and there was not much we could do in the way of exercise or training because he had a bad leg. All I could do was manage him so that he never did bite anyone. This is not what the people want to hear, and probably is not the ideal answer. So I leave it to people that have had aggressive dogs that they have managed to rehabilitate.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Because....the more you tell people the "truth"...the less they are willing to listen.

I also refer to "opinions"......There will always be "opinions" from those, that no matter what......*their* "opinion" holds the most value.......
I'd rather do something more productive with my time than argue over one's opinion, especially when it doesn't even matter much to me personally.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> Because....the more you tell people the "truth"...the less they are willing to listen.
> 
> I also refer to "opinions"......There will always be "opinions" from those, that no matter what......*their* "opinion" holds the most value.......
> I'd rather do something more productive with my time than argue over one's opinion, especially when it doesn't even matter much to me personally.



I can appreciate that. That was what the original topic was about. Not listening to opinions and advice after asking questions. Or worse arguing back about the advice.

Unfortunately though the people like yourself and others are the ones who could have the best and most to offer. I hate to name names because I don't intentionally mean to leave people out, but you, Cliff, Lee, Carmen, Vandal and others are the greatest source of information on GSD's. Their temperament, characteristics, how to handle, train etc..

Selzer you always (well almost always) give thoughtful responses and your knowledge and experience are so valuable to have. You do try to be nice to even some of the weirdest threads out there. Other than occasionally picking on me, you are a valuable resource for the forum.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

selzer said:


> My first GSD was an epic failure on my part, and while he never bit a child or anyone other than me, I did end up putting him down as his aggressiveness was increasing and there was not much we could do in the way of exercise or training because he had a bad leg..


Sorry about your first GSD, that had to be rough.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Everyone must be getting along today.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pretty quiet namby pamby land, yes, it might be another early night tonight.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

getting along ? Jack's dad. It is still a full moon so who knows .

I love this forum. I said so the moment I joined and had a look at the variety of topics. 

I thank you for including my name in the company of others that I have known for a long time and respect .

I agree with Robin who said 
Because....the more you tell people the "truth"...the less they are willing to listen.

I also refer to "opinions"......There will always be "opinions" from those, that no matter what......*their* "opinion" holds the most value.......
I'd rather do something more productive with my time than argue over one's opinion, especially when it doesn't even matter much to me personally. 

Every one can and does have an opinion . However an opinion is not knowledge. 

there's a start -- will check in later
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

carmspack said:


> getting along ? Jack's dad. It is still a full moon so who knows .
> 
> I love this forum. I said so the moment I joined and had a look at the variety of topics.
> 
> ...


An opinion can be based on knowledge, so one opinion can be closer to fact than another. It is very difficult to argue opinion because there are so many variables behind them: fact , logic, emotion, experience, incorrect information. That's what spices up this forum. You are never sure who REALLY knows what they are talking about.
OK OK, you can be pretty sure that --> I <-- don't.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Opinions aren't always based on knowledge.  Sometimes they are based on Fox News.

When I ask a question, it's because I really don't know the answer. There are certain people I want to hear from. There are others that I don't read because I've seen to many contradictions in their previous posts. I think when people are looking for answers they sometimes just want validation of what they are currently doing, right or wrong. Others, like me, will navigate to the answers that most fit my thought processes.

My dog is pulling...

A1: Use a prong collar 
My thoughts: Been there, done that. You have to have higher training than just popping a prong collar on.
A2: Get more obedience
My thoughts: Why do you think I posted the question to begin with!
A3: Teach your dog to focus using rewards and build on that
My thoughts: Ok. That works and makes sense to me.

If it doesn't make sense to a person, then they can't process it. If it's argumentative from the start, people move on and don't read.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Opinions aren't always based on knowledge.  Sometimes they are based on Fox News.


And the downright outrageous opinions are based on CNN.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Fox news MUCH better than CNN or MSNBC.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> An opinion can be based on knowledge, so one opinion can be closer to fact than another. It is very difficult to argue opinion because there are so many variables behind them: fact , logic, emotion, experience, incorrect information. That's what spices up this forum. You are never sure who REALLY knows what they are talking about.
> OK OK, you can be pretty sure that --> I <-- don't.



There are topics though that bring out strong opinions. Positive only training vs anything else is an example. Part of the reason it's hard to detect accurate fact is because what PO training consists of can't even be agreed upon, much less how to implement it.

Anething to do with Cesar Milan. Guaranteed hot topic. Is he a trainer or a behaviorist? What about his methods? 

Raw vs kibble. What kibble is the best?

What do you think of Veteranarians? Do Vets know anything about food or training?

I could go on and on.

Good topics, but there are so many variables with individual dogs.

The ideas people have still interest me.

The moderators do a great job on these hot topics and others.

I wonder how the moderators do not go crazy seeing the same stuff over and over,


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> There are topics though that bring out strong opinions. Positive only training vs anything else is an example. Part of the reason it's hard to detect accurate fact is because what PO training consists of can't even be agreed upon, much less how to implement it.
> 
> Anething to do with Cesar Milan. Guaranteed hot topic. Is he a trainer or a behaviorist? What about his methods?
> 
> ...


ssshhhhhhhhh, don't tell
The Moderators are ALL crazy !!!

hahahahahaha


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

selzer said:


> fox news much better than cnn or msnbc.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax08 was pretty much on target I think. Her little zinger woke you folks up.

So now, Germanshepherdlova and selzer are starting trouble. 
I thought we were making progress,


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> ssshhhhhhhhh, don't tell
> The Moderators are ALL crazy !!!
> 
> hahahahahaha


 Oh boy. Ladylaw203 is gonna come looking for you.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Oh boy. Ladylaw203 is gonna come looking for you.


Uh oh, Here come de Law.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How come I don't get to have an opinion Andy?

If someone else says something, I agree or disagree with it is an opinion, and they are entitled to it. 

If I hold a different opinion, and I voice my opinion, I'm starting trouble? 

Opinions can be offensive.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> How come I don't get to have an opinion Andy?
> 
> If someone else says something, I agree or disagree with it is an opinion, and they are entitled to it.
> 
> ...


Because you all were starting to get political. Bad, against the rules. Next you will all be swearing at each other. That's bad too.

So you see.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

selzer said:


> Fox news MUCH better than CNN or MSNBC.


Jon Stewart and Bill Maher are the ONLY reputable news sources!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jack's Dad said:


> Because you all were starting to get political. Bad, against the rules. Next you will all be swearing at each other. That's bad too.
> 
> So you see.


Political? Me?

I think I just stated my opinion on who has better news coverage. After my guys at Fox News were blasted.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

See..now I wasn't being political. That's OPINION was based on thin air. And 'blasted'? Now that is a terrible over exaggeration based on personal bias. I didn't state who had better news coverage. Just that sometimes opinions are based on Fox News.

And look what I started! :rofl:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Of cours we all know that the media are neither biased or political. :crazy:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Not Jon Stewart!!! Say it ain't so!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I like the personalities on Fox News. It is what I am accustomed to. It is not political. 

But if you did not want to blast a particular news organization, you would have said, the daily news or the evening news, rather than the rather specific Fox news. 

I feel I am being taken advantage of here, Ya all know I can't pass up a chocolate brownie and one or two other things....


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Of cours we all know that the media are neither biased or political. :crazy:


Of course we know that the media are neither biased nor political. They are salesmen. They are selling what their broadcaster thinks the people want to hear. If their bosses wanted to sell some other bias, they would be selling that. This gives people choices. You can choose a broadcaster who is selling to the liberals or a broadcaster who is selling to the conservatives. But they are all SELLING. And people are BUYING.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have to be honest...I've never, ever, not once, watched Fox News in my life!  My opinion is based solely on Jon Stewart who is highly educated and has his own show so can be trusted to en part unbiased news for the masses.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What was this thread about again?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> What was this thread about again?


Good point .... this is sounding more like Random Thread than the OP intended.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Jax08 was pretty much on target I think. Her little zinger woke you folks up.
> 
> So now, Germanshepherdlova and selzer are starting trouble.
> I thought we were making progress,


??? Jax is the one that started on Fox news, and we responded so now we are causing trouble? Very interesting. Kinda like, why ask for an opinion if you don't want an answer…..


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> ??? Jax is the one that started on Fox news, and we responded so now we are causing trouble? Very interesting. Kinda like, why ask for an opinion if you don't want an answer…..


Something like that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> ??? Jax is the one that started on Fox news, and we responded so now we are causing trouble? Very interesting. Kinda like, why ask for an opinion if you don't want an answer…..


Cuz I'm The Untouchable! Bawwaaaaahhaaaaa


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

jack's dad said:


> something like that.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Good point .... this is sounding more like Random Thread than the OP intended.


Thanks PaddyD and Jax08.

I started it and I even forgot what we were talking about.

Oh yeah. Asking for advice and either ignoring or getting mad when the advice is given.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Cuz I'm The Untouchable! Bawwaaaaahhaaaaa


…..only as far as Jack is concerned


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax08 I believe, got some good advice on her thread about Jax limping and she even listened to it and weighed it. That's how it's supposed to work isn't it. 

Off topic. How is Jax


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Oh yeah. Asking for advice and either ignoring or getting mad when the advice is given.


In all seriousness, the people that ask outrageous questions that are so ethically unsound that you drop your computer in shock and ignore every suggestion except any that match their original post are only wanting validation to what they are doing that they know is wrong but have no intention of changing because it's the easy way out.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Thanks PaddyD and Jax08.
> 
> I started it and I even forgot what we were talking about.
> 
> Oh yeah. Asking for advice and either ignoring or getting mad when the advice is given.


How about getting mad when you see a thread topic and go to the end (because it looks like a good topic) and find that the posts have nothing to do with the topic (?)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Jax08 I believe, got some good advice on her thread about Jax limping and she even listened to it and weighed it. That's how it's supposed to work isn't it.
> 
> Off topic. How is Jax


Jax is well. Thank you for asking. On rimadyl for a week which makes her think she's better than she is so the monkey took off on me to go hunt field mice today. So no more walking outside with me off leash! She'll go in for xrays on Thursday while she's already knocked out for a growth removal. She doesn't do well with anesthetics so expect me to be a basket case on Thursday.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> How about getting mad when you see a thread topic and go to the end (because it looks like a good topic) and find that the posts have nothing to do with the topic (?)


Well sometimes it just sort of slides away and after awhile no one remembers the original topic. 
I also have a theory about looking at the last post first.
When people are setup that way they sometimes come in late and respond to the last few posts which could be heading anywhere. That in turn takes it even farther away.
I picked up a long thread in the middle one time when I was setup that way, and took some bogus info and ran with it. I had to apologize for that. I don't read the last post first anymore.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I read the first post, skim over the first page, and add my post if I have something to say. The only time I read the whole thread is if it's only one page.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

If it's a long thread that I haven't followed, I read the first 10 to 20 posts and then skip to the last page.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> If it's a long thread that I haven't followed, I read the first 10 to 20 posts and then skip to the last page.


How can you follow a conversation when you miss the middle of it?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> How can you follow a conversation when you miss the middle of it?


You can't, but some of these threads run into the hundreds of posts and quite frankly unless it's a real compelling topic I'm not going to read it all. 

If I'm interested in a particular topic I usually folloew the whole thing.

Ice berg breeders was a very complex discussion about breeding and I followed every bit of it. Some was above my head with all the bloodlines pedigreees etc... What a great educational read though.


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## amaris (Jan 6, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I read the first post, skim over the first page, and add my post if I have something to say. The only time I read the whole thread is if it's only one page.


Just read all 14 pages... 

Just thought I'd throw in my thanks to anyone who actually answers any question with their best-thought-out answers. I've been abusing the search function on this forum, looking for anything that I can use once i FINALLY get my dog 

OH YES, that's probably also a problem here, newbies coming in and posting a qn that has been asked and answered multiple times....and the more experienced members sort of going...."Didn't I just answer this qn 1 week ago?" ...

anyway, thanks to all you guys for all the info i've gleaned from here so far, here's hoping, I'm never the target of your ire. :toasting:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> How about getting mad when you see a thread topic and go to the end (because it looks like a good topic) and find that the posts have nothing to do with the topic (?)


Welcome to internet forums. 

They are much like real-life conversations, which eventually flow away from the original topic. But I admit, it can be annoying when two or three people take a thread and turn it into a private chatroom for two or three pages.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I like cheese.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

With crackers...but not all crackers


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I like cheese - and I like crackers , sometimes cheese can be applied to a cracker , but if you were going to put the cheese on the cracker holding the biscuit , I think you are in for a fight . 

when I come late to a discussion I do read every entry.

a disadavantage can be entering a discussion early.

more than once on this forum there have been questions which begin with a sense of urgency but with very little , important, information . You try your best , later to be scorned because you couldn't mind read or peer into the total situation -- and even there , there are stories which twist and turn and contradict .


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I like cheese - and I like crackers , sometimes cheese can be applied to a cracker , but if you were going to put the cheese on the cracker holding the biscuit , I think you are in for a fight .
> 
> when I come late to a discussion I do read every entry.
> 
> ...


Your right Carmen. Often after the initial question, a whole lot of other factors come out that would have caused different responses, if known.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And then there are hypothetical questions like, "Why ask if you don't want to hear?" and instead of running down the OPs last fifty posts or so, you answer the question as though it was indeed hypothetical perhaps without reading the entire thread first. Then I generally go back plow through it, and find that it was about specific situation and my post is way out in left field -- just answering the question, and now its too late to delete it.


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## SitUbuSit (Aug 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> I have seen some newbies get angry and leave, usually stamping their feet on their way out and leaving a goodbye cruel world exit post. Sometimes those people get mad totally because they asked a question and did not get the answers they wanted. Oh well. Would we rather they stick around and learn more? Sure.
> 
> But sometimes you are not going to get that if you bend over backwards. I swear on some of those threads, I AM bending over backwards.


Selzer, if newbies saw the threads where you spend hours coaching people with pregnant foster and rescues, helping them whelp their first litter step-by-step, there would be no question about your true "niceness." Taking the time to share your expertise (as many of you do everyday) with people you've never met, for no other reason than because you care about the dog -- to me, that is so much kinder and more meaningful than superficial niceties. 

Yeah, sometimes it gets testy, and there are topics that are practically guaranteed to devolve into a shouting match. I just skip those.

Maybe we can have a sticky for topics for newbies to avoid initiating, like:

"Leaving my dog outside forever. Discuss." 
"Show lines vs work lines -- what's the big deal, anyway?" 
"HELP!!!! How to teach my dog to bite you in the face?" 
"Look at the two puppies I just bought off Craiglist!" 

One thing that really bugs me (and I know it's been said already, so I'm seconding) is when people don't use "Search." That would also be a good sticky. 

How to use this magical box called "Search": 
Type in word
Press "Search"

I mean, this is not rocket science. We newbies all ask the same questions anyway. I have yet to think of a question that hasn't already been asked and answered multiple times by people on this board.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Zen Puppy will snatch Hotdog from your hand:


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> And then there are hypothetical questions like, "Why ask if you don't want to hear?" and instead of running down the OPs last fifty posts or so, you answer the question as though it was indeed hypothetical perhaps without reading the entire thread first. Then I generally go back plow through it, and find that it was about specific situation and my post is way out in left field -- just answering the question, and now its too late to delete it.


oh yeah, I feel your pain.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Zen Puppy will snatch Hotdog from your hand:



I love this pic.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Glad you like it. 

Some days you just gotta say Oooohhhmmmm. 



GSDolch said:


> I love this pic.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

QUOTE=SitUbuSit;2283976]One thing that really bugs me (and I know it's been said already, so I'm seconding) is when people don't use "Search." That would also be a good sticky. 

How to use this magical box called "Search": 
Type in word
Press "Search"

I mean, this is not rocket science. We newbies all ask the same questions anyway. I have yet to think of a question that hasn't already been asked and answered multiple times by people on this board.[/QUOTE]

this is a good idea but I know when I found this site, I just sort of wandered here and there. I didn't see or just missed the "search" function.
I didn't even know how to start a thread. It took me about a half a day to do the Avatar. I just yesterday after another days worth of fooling around was able to put some pictures up.
Some of us are not that computer saavy.
What bothers me is when people start threads for what seems like every thought that goes through their head.

Some, start 3,4,5 or more threads a day. They can't all be that important.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Some people start lots of threads to begin to make connections with others. I don't find that annoying, I think it's sweet. It's a good way to make new friends, get familiar with the other members, and I enjoy seeing some new perspectives and learning new things about the people I have known on here for a couple years.

I think if you come to this site and find yourself getting annoyed by some of its aspects, take a break. I have had to do it myself from time to time. Chances are, no one will miss the fact that you are gone (not YOU specifically, I mean you in the general sense of the word) anyway.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's a free country. People can start 40 threads a day ( and we all know of one person that WAS doing that!). If you know there is no merit other than to get attention, then don't read it. That's where your free will comes into play! No Andy..DON'T DO IT!!! JUST SAY NO!!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

In light of some recent threads I thought I would revive this one.

To me this was the good old days

It has usefull information.
Some arguments.
Some laughter and general entertainment.


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