# what can a pedigree tell us about new litter



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

So I plan on getting a pup when Rosko is older. I want to do the research and get the best possible dog available. So my question is this. I have a basic understanding of how to read a pedigree but what does all of that info really mean when it comes to pups. I will post 2 pedigrees look them over and tell me what if anything they mean to possible pups. I am drawn to Ammo simply because there are more titles in the lineage. Am I putting too much into titles. Plus there is more info on mothers side. Thanks
Ammo von den Sportwaffen

Czar Winland Vom Kokeltal


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I will say that Ammo's owners aren't going to breed him until they get his OFA papers. If the old vet doesn't get them to the new owners they will have him tested themselves. So if he doesn't pass then he isn't an option.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I would stay far away from Czar. He is the product of a father/daughter breeding, plus there are few titles or health clearances (hips/elbows) on the bottom half.

It seems like they're using German kennel names because they sound good, but it is a major faux pas to use other breeders' kennel names. 

I would definitely look elsewhere...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> I will say that Ammo's owners aren't going to breed him until they get his OFA papers. If the old vet doesn't get them to the new owners they will have him tested themselves. So if he doesn't pass then he isn't an option.


what makes him so special?
FWIW, I don't understand the 'old vet getting them to the new owners'. Xray submitted to OFA is a two week turnaround right now. If he's had them submitted, then OFA has them in their database.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > I will say that Ammo's owners aren't going to breed him until they get his OFA papers. If the old vet doesn't get them to the new owners they will have him tested themselves. So if he doesn't pass then he isn't an option.
> ...


I don't know too much about the OFA thing
They just said they was waiting on OFA and hip & elbow info from vet. If info wasn't in their possessions when the bitch goes into season he wouldn't be used as stud. As far as what makes him so special that is what this post is for to clarify what do all those titles in a dogs pedigree mean as far as breeding.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Ammo is just two yrs old, right? Nates breeding program speaks for itself, but the owner of Ammo should be proving he is breedworthy with training and titling him. NOT studding him out due to his pedigree. I think he is from Cero's first litter after Nate bought Cero...so IMO, Ammo's owner should be working him to show Cero's producing decently.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Ammo is barely 1 year old. To young to breed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

DobbyDad said:


> Ammo is barely 1 year old. To young to breed.


ah, I wondered if he was from Cero's first litter here in the US which would have been a couple yrs old now. CDwoodcox, I would look at other breeders. I am not impressed with the one you've linked.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

this is just someone doing backyard breeding using dogs who have some decent dogs in their backgrounds but who know nothing about the breed, the criteria and pedigrees....

Czar is a backyard bred dog and would not be considered by anyone knowledgeable or reputable for a sire....his pedigree contains elements that should only be used by someone who knows what they are doing....


Lee


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Alright. So what do you look for in a pedigree or dogs when choosing a breeder. Ammo has an impressive pedigree but he is young and hasn't proven himself yet. Czar has some inbreeding and a lack of info on the mothers side. If ammo himself were titled in something and older would he be acceptable? And if not what would. I want to be able to research and decipher things myself. And keep in mind I have no desire to do schutzhund. Agility and possibly herding. So I don't need super dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Instead of looking at a pedigree that you really aren't knowledgeable with, look at the breeder. What have they produced as far as versatility, longevity and health. 
Breeders that are successful do know how to match pedigrees, so look at what the breeder is actually producing through generations of their foundation lines. I am not a fan of breeders bringing in dogs to breed with no direction or goals for their program(other than to produce puppie$)


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

What I will be looking for with my next GSD will be parents with solid temperaments. Titles are a good way to prove the dog has that. Just because you don't want to do Schutzhund/IPO doesn't mean the breeding dogs shouldn't have these titles. I wish someone would have pounded this into my head before we got our first GSD, because he is nervy. In any litter, there will be less drivey dogs that will be better suited to be a pet that maybe dabbles in other sports. Just because the parents do great in IPO does not mean you will end up with a prey monster that cannot be tamed. A good breeder will be able to pick a puppy for you that will fit your needs.

In my opinion, it is important to look for a breeder that works and titles their own dogs. I want to see the breeder really discriminating between a good dog and a good _breeding_ dog. Many dogs are great, but don't necessarily have genes that need to be passed down. I want a breeder that knows their dog's strengths, as well as what could be improved upon. I want a breeder that is actively trying to improve their lines. I don't want a breeder that just buys/imports dogs that are already titled and breeds them to whoever. I want a breeder that truly knows their dogs.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Yeah, I am just going to forget pedigree. Other than being able to look and see good hips elbows DM negative in history. Current dogs will be able to be seen in person to judge temperament, drive, and looks. Since I have no desire to sch, ipo, they really don't figure into my equation. Unless I am incorrect, pedigree is more important to dogs looking to compete in ISO, SCH, or show. Or breeders. Anyone disagree with this. Or am I looking at it wrong.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I think the pedigree is important, too. I wouldn't discount it completely. I want to see impressive dogs in a pedigree. But it is MORE important to find a breeder that understands the dogs in the lines. You really need to find someone who understands how two dogs will likely match up.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> Yeah, I am just going to forget pedigree. Other than being able to look and see good hips elbows DM negative in history. Current dogs will be able to be seen in person to judge temperament, drive, and looks. Since I have no desire to sch, ipo, they really don't figure into my equation. Unless I am incorrect, pedigree is more important to dogs looking to compete in ISO, SCH, or show. Or breeders. Anyone disagree with this. Or am I looking at it wrong.


as posted above, breeders that are actually working and titling is important because they learn the strengths and weaknesses of their breeding stock...it then helps to make breeding decisions to match up for better balanced dogs. Pedigree is important, as well as titles. Don't focus on one thing, but the big picture. Karlo's breeder has set the bar pretty high as far as breeding versatile companions.. so I will share the website as an example.
You can see by this the way good breeders become successful. (Wildhaus Kennels, Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> Yeah, I am just going to forget pedigree. Other than being able to look and see good hips elbows DM negative in history. Current dogs will be able to be seen in person to judge temperament, drive, and looks. Since I have no desire to sch, ipo, they really don't figure into my equation. Unless I am incorrect, pedigree is more important to dogs looking to compete in ISO, SCH, or show. Or breeders. Anyone disagree with this. Or am I looking at it wrong.




You shouldn't disregard the pedigree.
It actually tells you a great deal.


Look , it (pedigrees) already saved your bacon once. 
You thought you found two good dogs .


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

for a novice, viewing pedigrees purely on a dog level, it basically tell you what you've already come to find out - health clearances and titles. but you're correct to assume that pedigrees go far and beyond just that..... that's why people push looking at breeders further and that they are training/working/titling their own dogs - that's where the trust and research come in and that's also what puts reputable breeders superior to backyard breeders.

I like to look at it in terms of colors... we all know that red, blue, yellow and green are legitimate colors - beautiful, titled or whatever...

a reputable breeder who is familiar with their dogs, their lines, follow progeny, etc will absolutely know that red+red=red and blue+yellow=green... green+yellow=less intense, lighter/brighter green. call these colors dogs... just as people of different personalities can excel in the same classes or careers - all people (personalities) don't get along right?

so a person purchasing and breeding dogs that they're less familiar with aren't going to be able to know what "colors" these dogs are, nor how to pair up dogs that compliment each other which allows them to meet their program goals as well as produce (and match) dogs that a prospective buyer is interested in. if you're in the market for a green puppy.... even if one parent is green... unknowingly or irresponsibly bred to red.... you've got brown.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

It becomes mind numbing trying to find a breeder based off of pedigrees. Especially since most of the ones I have seen referenced on here say they rarely have long hair. Let alone a long hair sable female.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but I would be more flexible on the dog's appearance, if I were you. What's more important... a stable, healthy dog, or a dog that happens to be sable and have long hair?

I know it's hard to let go of appearance, especially when you really have your heart set on certain things. But, you will have this dog for the next decade (or longer!), and temperament is way more important than looks. Just my opinion.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but I would be more flexible on the dog's appearance, if I were you. What's more important... a stable, healthy dog, or a dog that happens to be sable and have long hair?
> 
> I know it's hard to let go of appearance, especially when you really have your heart set on certain things. But, you will have this dog for the next decade (or longer!), and temperament is way more important than looks. Just my opinion.


 Yeah, but I am in no hurry. that is why I started looking for a breeder now.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

why not look at the many long hair sables here and inquire about their breeders... if you haven't ready. you probably know that long hairs are most often found in west german showlines, however sables are almost non existent in those lines.... so to find a long hair working line sable is quite the task. I'm particular about coat and color in my dogs as well, so I won't fault you for that... but the trade off and compromise of course is patience... and likely having a pup shipped.

personally, I'd probably skip over any breeder where more than a quarter of the breeding stock is long coated. it would seem to me that too much focus was put on producing that particular coat type.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

long coat working line sables can be found

I have one -- Sumo --- 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/153627-carmspack-sumo-vinny.html 

Sumo's sire was a long coat black.

I wasn't looking for black. I wasn't looking for long coat . 

Sumo-- I wasn't looking for sable and I wasn't looking for long coat.
Sumo's sister is forum members Satov female Journey IPO 3 --- NOT a long coat.


Sumo had a litter , which produced forum member Saphire's male GUS 
no long coats


If I ever bred Sumo and happened to have a long coat I would match that dog to the right owner.
Don't go to a breeder who will specialize to fill a market niche which is cosmetic - colour, size, coat. 
The right match , not based solely on appearance , is most important.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

Fodder said:


> a reputable breeder who is familiar with their dogs, their lines, follow progeny, etc will absolutely know that red+red=red and blue+yellow=green... green+yellow=less intense, lighter/brighter green. call these colors dogs... just as people of different personalities can excel in the same classes or careers - all people (personalities) don't get along right?
> 
> so a person purchasing and breeding dogs that they're less familiar with aren't going to be able to know what "colors" these dogs are, nor how to pair up dogs that compliment each other which allows them to meet their program goals as well as produce (and match) dogs that a prospective buyer is interested in.* if you're in the market for a green puppy.... even if one parent is green... unknowingly or irresponsibly bred to red.... you've got brown.*


I love the way you put this. It makes this concept so much easier to understand! :grin2:

Now, is there a discussion somewhere that can help me see the "colors" in a pedigree?


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