# Personal Protection dog training????



## Randy542

Could someone please tell me what tactics are used to turn a GSD into a personal protection dog? How do they get the dog to bite? DO they hurt the dog? Is it possible to have a personal protection dog without breaking its spirit? IE meaning will the dog still be a loving dog at home? Help i need advice


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## AQC82

I'm not exactly sure of the methods used in personal protection training but do however know alittle about police K9 training which in some ways is similar. The training can at times be brutal (lack of a better term) in a sense that the dog is trained with a choke chain and has to WORK for food, treats, toy, etc. However, there are alot of things to take into consideration such as the dog themselves, the trainer, methods used (not all are created equal), and owner. I would think if all is done properly the bond will be just as good if not better between dog and owner. HTH!


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## phgsd

When properly done, personal protection training is the opposite of "breaking the dog's spirit." A PPD is made to think he's the biggest baddest dog on the block and that he can take on anyone and win. They should also be taught to obey their owner 100%, otherwise it would be dangerous to have them in public.
So yes PPD's are still very loving to their owners and immediate family. Many may not want to interact with anyone outside of their family.

At some point pressure is put on the dog to ensure that it will not back down from a fight. It's not all positive reinforcement, but that doesn't mean the dog is being abused.

Bad PPD trainers can turn the dog into a fear biter...basically give the dog no option to run if scared so the dog doesn't have a choice but to bite. But that is not the proper way to do it and IMO that is very cruel and is not a reliable way to train a dog. If a dog that's been trained like that realizes in a real life situation that it can bolt - it most likely will.
On the other hand a bad PPD could also teach a dog to fight and win, but not the obedience or control. So basically the dog is a total menace.
It takes a very good trainer and a very good dog to find the right balance.


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## bergwanderkennels

I know that there are some guys out there that train dogs for business protection which can be different then PPD family.


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## Randy542

Thank you for your reply's


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## MrLeadFoot

Having trained many, many personal protection, security and guard dogs, I can tell you that every single one of the personal protection dogs that I and my team trained lived with a family. And, none of them ever needed any type of negative training. Sure, corrections are part of the training, but interestingly, the corrections are hardly ever used in the actual protection part of the training, and are instead only really required in the obedience part of the training, just like when training a family pet. After all, like *phgsd *said above, a PPD is nothing but a menace, and not to be considered a trained PPD at all, if obedience is not solid.

As for the actual protection training methods, there is NEVER a need to harm a dog during this phase. In fact, if you did hurt the dog, it would indeed likely break its spirit, as well as possibly cause psychological problems. It is actually quite easy to teach a dog to protect; in fact, it is probably the easiest thing to teach over and above any type of obedience, as far as I'm concerned. For example, I can train a dog to know how to protect in 30 minutes or less, but it can take months to get strong obedience, does that make sense? That's why it's always best to make sure the dog is 99% reliable in obedience before ANY type of protection training is begun. I don't mean to say you need HEEL, Loose-leash walking or any of that. You really only need variations of COME, SIT, STAY, albeit solid responses from the dog, because variations of those commands shape the behaviors that ensue when calling the dog "off".


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## spoil9

MrLeadFoot,
I have a beautiful 9month old female that I am starting to take to obedience training. Although low on my list of things that I would like to do with her, PPD is on that list and is something I am thinking of looking into. 
Have you ever had problems with this training interfering with other training such as tracking and general overall polite behavior? I live in the suburbs with lots of kids, some are not so great but most are pretty nice. 
The trouble makers stay away for the most part and the ok kids like to come up to pet Delilah when I take her on walks around the block. She normally sits there pretty and lets them pet her, then after a min I tell them I gotta go and we continue our walk. 
The last thing I want is for Delilah to mistake a kid petting her for something else which is why PPD is last on my list of things to consider training her.
Thanks for any input.


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## MrLeadFoot

It's actually ironic that you ask about having problems with PPDs once they're trained, because I just got beat up on another similar thread by some people over my thoughts, even though these folks have never met me, or seen any dogs I've trained. All they wanted to do was argue over every little thing, and I just don't have time for childish nonsense. I mention this only because I've never seen your dog, so can only make general statements, you know what I mean?

I have a near 9 month female myself, and right now I am not doing anything related to PPD with her because of the very reasons you state, even though I've been doing obedience with her since she's been 9 weeks old. It sounds like you are just getting started with your obedience, so you are prudent in walking with caution in regards to protection training.

My philosophy has always been to get solid obedience down, while at the same time exposing the dog to as many worry-free experiences with human adult and children as possible, as you are doing. Since you're just starting obedience, you've got a ways to go before your should even begin PPD training, so you should also use this period to watch as your dog matures, as it will undoubtedly develop it's own "feel" for certain types of situations, and you should watch to see how it "deals" with them, and re-shape behaviors if necessary. Know that her perceptions of things she has now may change, too. With my own dog, I want to make sure she has what it takes to NOT use her protection training when she's not supposed to, because any dog can be taught to protect you in one way or another, even if it's the wrong way, you know what I mean? So, teaching NOT to be protective is important.

In my book, there are two types of PPDs. One does nothing on its own, in the way of protection; it only responds to commands. The other is a dog that protects on its own. And, the type of dog you want must be decided before any type of protection training is started. Based on your comments, I'm going to assume you're interested in a PPD that protects only when you tell it to. With that said, I would suggest that you ensure that your obedience work includes the use of high distraction at some point, to help teach your dog some self control, and to pay attention to YOU in preparation for your PP training.

Within the two types of PPDs, there are variations of each type. You might want to start thinking about what you want, and your environment. Do you want a dog that will fiercely battle to protect you, or do you want one that only scares people away?

I have not seen PPD training interfere with typical obedience training. Well, maybe it's more like I wouldn't let it. In fact, PPD training IMPROVES obedience training in a way, because such a dog must be held to a much higher standard of obedience than the typical companion dog, you know what I mean? But, if not trained properly in obedience and/or protection, you could end up with a dog that makes mistakes, eg. being protective when it's not warranted, which is not a good thing.

I recommend that you research as much as you can on the subject on your own, and take everything you hear from PPD trainers, or any other type of dog trainer, including me, for that matter, with a grain of salt, because you never know if that trainer is a know-it-all, who just knows how to talk the walk, does that make sense?

As far as gunshots (I saw your other post), maybe you can try firecrackers as a substitute to start. That should at least give you an idea as to the nerves your dog has when encountering sudden, loud sounds similar to gunshots. I used New Year's Eve as my test, when my dog was 5 months. That's quite young for such a test, but I was careful as to how I exposed her to the noise, and it all worked out. July 4th is coming up, maybe that's something you might consider doing to see how she reacts to at least the sound of firecrackers.

I hope you understand that I cannot advise you on a forum like this, but I am indeed trying to give you as much info as I can that might help you arrive at an educated decision.

Hope this helps.


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## DFrost

> Originally Posted By: AQC82 but do however know alittle about police K9 training which in some ways is similar. The training can at times be brutal (lack of a better term) in a sense that the dog is trained with a choke chain and has to WORK for food, treats, toy, etc.


As a police dog trainer, I take exception to statements that police training can be brutal. While it's true many trainers use a choke chain, myself included, stating that the dog "has to work for food, treats, toy etc" is inaccuarate. When, in fact, it's the selection of the dog that is the single most important factor in police dogs. Toys, ie ball, tugs etc are used in some training, but it's the inate behavior the dog possesses towards these objects that make the training easier, far from brutal. If you meant brutal in respect to what some of these dogs may have to do, work for a living, be exposed to dangerous situation etc, that's one thing. The training, however, is far from brutal. Training of police service dogs is at worst 90% positive reinforcement. I would hardly consider that brutal. Police/military dog trainers have for years been placed in a class of "yank and crank" trainers. Generally it's by those that really don't understand how a good trainer works to produce the best possible dog. Personally, I would depend on an animal, in a possibly life/death situation, that I had to be brutal with to train. 

DFrost


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## ladylaw203

> Quote:however know alittle about police K9 training which in some ways is similar. The training can at times be brutal (lack of a better term) in a sense that the dog is trained with a choke chain and has to WORK for food, treats, toy, etc. However, there are alot of things to take into consideration such as the dog themselves, the trainer, methods used (not all are created equal), and owner. I would think if all is done


You obviously know nothing about how we train police service dogs. the training is motivational. A dog trained totally in compulsion will be unrealiable. 
I closed the other thread. There will be NO personal attacks, sarcasm and anything else offensive or this one shall be closed as well. This was only directed at Lead Foot. This thread will continue in a responsible civil manner or not at all


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## spoil9

Mr. Leadfoot,
Sorry I haven't responded all month but it's been the last few weeks of school and time gets filled with life.
I read your post and I believe I completely understand everything you are trying to say.

As far as the two types of PPD, I would be interested in just scaring and only on my command as you said. Reason for this is that I do live in a pretty save neighborhood in a town filled with mostly seniors. However, having Chicago just a couple blocks down the street you really can't be sure of who is going to walk up your block bored and looking for something to do. (Am I paranoid? Yes, a little, but 18 months in Iraq where everyone is trying to kill you will do that.)

I know I have a long way to go as I have high standards for her training and right now she is only listening to me on the first command about 80% of the time. And that drops when there are distractions, however I am working on it.

Again, thank you for your input, and may I ask one more question from ya? You mentioned you wrote a book, may I ask the title?


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## MrLeadFoot

Sorry to take so long to reply. I think I missed your post altogether.









I did not write a book. I think you are referring to the phrase I used in my previous post, "In my book...". While I can see how that could indeed be interpreted as I wrote a book, it was used in that context as a figure of speech. Sorry for the confusion.


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## slaen

Sorry to add to a two month old post.

In PPD training make sure first off the obedience is solid. You want a dog that is predictable to your commands. Work on come, sit and out or leave it. 

As long as your dog is socialized and around a lot of people and dogs I seriously doubt your dog would think a child petting her is a threat. The reason I say this is because dogs are excellent at reading peoples body language. But you want your dog to know she does not make the decisions, which is why using a command like mark or watch is good. That way you decide who is good or bad, not the dog.


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## KittyKat

Hello









I know this is an old post but we are starting Personal protection as well. My guy is 5 months old. He does NO bite work at this point and will not do so till into the New Year. THEY DO NOT mistreat a dog at all with ANY of the training. They correct you if you physically smack the dog or scream at it. WHICH you'd be suprised how many people do.

His training is the Phoenix system. They wear prong collars (which are honestly IMO less damaging than chokers but thats My opinion) They learn under minor stress and they are corrected of the task isn't done properly but ONLY after knowing full well what you are asking to do. When asked to sit and he sits (GOOD SIT!) then gets up and walks away.. he is corrected (which is a quick snap on the lead) and put back to his place. If we are going over and obsticle and he is scared, gentle tugs on the lead and positive reinforcement are crucial! If he completes the lesson (jumping over a barrel) after the jump he is told (GOOD JUMP!) with petting for more positive reinforcement. He is doing very well with all of this. 

He also does exceptionally well with loud noises. When I got him as a 6.5 week pup.. he was SCARED of loud music or any loud radio as he came from a quiet family home. Which is understandable. After taking him many places... we visited a friend he he happened to be playing the drums on his deck outside. The pup was curious as to what all that banging was and how it vibrated the deck. After closer inspection he figured it was ok and decided to sleep on the noisy, vibrating deck. WHICH from running away from every loud radio or crying... to sleeping 10 feet away from a drum set on a wooden deck was amazing to me. 
In October we went to a friends fireworks and he went to sleep during the fireworks. Everyone was amazed at how he just went to sleep and didn't really care about the loud noises. 

Something else that might work for you is a little kids cap gun... they make popping noises and its not to loud... popping pieces of plastic bags, balloons, recorded noises on the computer, loud clapping of your hands, firecrackers, fireworks. Starter pistols are good ones as well, blank guns are another word for starter pistols I think. 

Since this post is pretty old... how is he doing?


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## nufcfan

Every personal protection dog I've ever met has been a loving family dog with it's owners and in the home, they only turn it on when they have to go to "work"!


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## x11

which is the locked thread that started this one?? 

the type of dogs that people are talking about here sell for around starting price $50 000 US. i doubt in spite what most folks here think about fido that there are few that are a both great family dogs and will actually fight an attacker.... but dream on folks.


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## pets4life

to the op a good dog doesnt have to be hurt to bite someone for real they just have it in them. 

If someone has to corner your dog to make it aggressive you dont have the right dog for personal protection

A good personal protection dog will be at the end of the leash naturallly very aggressive soon as the man starts to act like a threat. They just have it in them. Most gsds don't have it in them. Usuallly these dogs don't make great family pets because they have a lot of aggression in them but some can make great pets still if the owner knows what they are doing. THey are usually very balanced and stable but still very serious dogs. 

50k for such a dog is the biggest bs rip off in the world.

A good breeder will find you a good candidate for a couple grand. You would have to train the dog yourself with a good trainer. BUt its not for someone who lacks experience with working dogs because the dog is usually a LOT of dog. Things can go wrong very easy and many can find themselves with a dog that is way too much for them to handle. JMHO I would never try to get a dog like this unless i had experience with other gsds first. Our society shuns dogs like these now so we have to be extra careful.


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## Catu

pets4life said:


> to the op a good dog doesnt have to be hurt to bite someone for real they just have it in them.
> 
> If someone has to corner your dog to make it aggressive you dont have the right dog for personal protection
> 
> A good personal protection dog will be at the end of the leash naturallly very aggressive soon as the man starts to act like a threat. They just have it in them. Most gsds don't have it in them. *Usuallly these dogs don't make great family pets because they have a lot of aggression in them* but some can make great pets still if the owner knows what they are doing. THey are usually very balanced and stable but still very serious dogs.
> 
> 50k for such a dog is the biggest bs rip off in the world.
> 
> A good breeder will find you a good candidate for a couple grand. You would have to train the dog yourself with a good trainer. BUt its not for someone who lacks experience with working dogs because the dog is usually a LOT of dog. Things can go wrong very easy and many can find themselves with a dog that is way too much for them to handle.


I agree with most of this but the part in bold. To have genetic aggression, (which I'd call fight drive) and to be aggressive are worlds apart. If you honestly think that, I guess you have not been around really good dogs, either for PP or for anything else.


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## Catu

AQC82 said:


> the dog has to WORK for food, treats, toy, etc.


Wow! Whom and where do I complain? I have to work for those too...


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## pets4life

what are you talking about catu? aggression is not just "fight drive" there is also territorial aggression and other types. Real aggression is just part of what makes them good dogs.


THere are some dogs that are very civil aggessive and dangerous but i am not talking about those, I think you just don't understand what I am talking about.


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## Catu

I do understand (though a better use of punctuation would help), I just don't agree.

As for aggression, that is material for a whole new thread, maybe I open one tomorrow. But my philosophy, something you may agree or not, because it's something I've developed from different sources and not what books usually describe, is that there are not as many types of aggression, but different aggressive behaviors in which it expresses, because the aggression itself is something into the dog.


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## x11

Catu said:


> *is that there are not as many types of aggression, but different aggressive behaviors in which it expresses, because the aggression itself is something into the dog.*


subtle, simple and 110% true. 

imo opinion applies to all vertebrates - the military have studied this extensively to determine something like 20% of soldiers in earlier modern wars (when they started to collect field data) failed to fire on an exposed enemy soldier and risked themselves getting killed, they then switched basic training from shooting at bulls-eyes static circular targets to concealed pop-up targets in the broad shape of a human. the failure rate decreased dramatically by the time of the Vietnam war and with the advent of first person shooter computer games they trained nearly everyone to be efficient at aggression. 

long story short true aggression is relatively rare because it is counter-productive to species survival as a first instinct, for most living things it is learned behavior. the animal aggression seen in the apbt is totally against nature and the breed would not survive in the wild - it is an agression of purely human design, like some of the original ddr dogs were selected for high levels of true aggression that has been actively selected against in the modern parodies of the original dogs.

just my penny worth.


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## pets4life

A gsd shouldn't survive in the wild either being that fearless and bold and poor hunting skills, poor health etc... No dogs should other than those mutts you see in the old world that live with vultures or near human garbage. THey are not coyotes or jackals.


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## x11

pets4life said:


> A gsd shouldn't survive in the wild either being that fearless and bold and poor hunting skills, poor health etc... No dogs should other than those mutts you see in the old world that live with vultures or near human garbage. THey are not coyotes or jackals.



you have not paid attention to any of my videos have you


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## pets4life

you have a video of your dog living with dingos hunting kangaroos for a year? WIth no contact with you?


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## x11

TheSBcase enjoy, i can send links to some private listed vids if your not convinced, you PETA???


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## pets4life

listed videos of what your dog catching and killing animals? my dog has caught the odd mink or **** that got in her yard it means nothing. Drop your dog off in the woods by itself in the middle of no where he will die.


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## x11

pets4life said:


> listed videos of what your dog catching and killing animals? my dog has caught the odd mink or **** that got in her yard it means nothing. Drop your dog off in the woods by itself in the middle of no where he will die.


you just blew yr chance, have a nice day.


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## Pirates Lair

We breed, raise and prepare dogs for Police service work, (only the Police train and Certify Police Service dogs) the videos below are an example of our work.

Any good Handler understands that when corrections with the dog are required , they have to be immediate, fair and consistent.

Police dogs are much like soldiers, they must obey orders immediately.......people's lives depend on it. They must be able to work in extremely stressful environments that the average dog would crumble in.

Every dog, like every person is an individual and motivated at times by different things - food, toy, praise, compulsion.

There is nothing wrong with using compulsion in training ANY dog, provided that it is Fair and Consistent, followed by praise.

You either understand what I'm saying or you don't.

A good Police K9 Handler takes care of his/her Partner, unless you have any real life experience or knowledge on this topic......you would be better off to listen to the people that do.


All 3 of our dogs seen in the videos are now Certified PSD's in the U.S.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmfWkn7ykgs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQIaMCXti-o


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LilxWLAxG0g


Kim


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## Pirates Lair

LOL, after reading some of the ignorant, uninformed, uneducated comments on this forum.....really?

Choke chains are bad? Only use treats etc.

When we train our dogs we use a variety of "tools", and each one is used fairly and consistently. 

Our dogs do not work for us because they have to, they work for us *because they want to.*

Our dogs are a part of our family, our Partners.....but they are still a dog. 

Treat them as such and you will both be happier.


Kim


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## Guest

*personal protection dog training*

personal protection dogs are selected from working lines. the will have an immediate response to a tug toy or other such things as well as loud noises like a gunshot there immediate response will be to attack the person however when there are being tested this is subsituted with a rag. as said in prevous posts the dog is not hurt in any way. the can be extremeley loving dogs. however the are diffrent sub-types with in this catagory, you have the sentry dog which is could by diffrent names for example the tire yard dog etc, the are tamed by one or two people and are kept on a buisness to gaurd and bite anyone that comes close to them, however these are not family dogs in any sense and i would not reccomend keeping. But the majority of protection dogs are trained on a command which means when the command is given the attack, no command no attack. unless you are being hurt by someone then the automatic instinct working dogs have will cause them to bite. the biting is instinct and real pp dogs not sport dogs are only trained on the how and the when. with regards to there spirit, no dog is forced into doing it. they are assessed as puppies and there is a video of this on youtube called 'testing a german shepherd puppy for work prospect' and this will show you what makes a pp dog. they can be extremley expensive depending on what you want, around up to $20,000 dollars and need continous training through-out there lives, i personally on two gsd k9 security dogs which are worked not quite the same thing as the pp but trained in pretty much the same way the want to do what the do. i can tell the only thing my dogs want to do is to go to my patrol car. as soon as the see my uniform and a put there work collars and leads they literally drag me there to go and work. the are can become household pets but the are extremely full of energy. if you want your own dog trained find a pp trainer in your area and get her tested and make sure you are present through the training at all times


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