# Circling at the Corners



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Ok, I tried to think of a topic that people could answer and not get tense about. Since it's the holidays, everyone is a bit on edge already. No one needs to offer advice and I will try to keep the words really simple so Joker won't get hot under his blue collar.









I have been observing some people tracking their dogs lately and after watching some different ways that people allow their dogs to work corners, I thought I would ask these questions.

When you are training your dog and he comes to a corner, do you allow your dog to cirlce and look or do you insist that he is very accurate, making an almost exact right or left turn? Why?
If he is fairly experienced and he passes the corner, do you correct him, or hold him there until he finds it ?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Thank you Anne, this is of specific interest to me.....maybe later in the thread I will share, but now I would prefer to lurk and learn.

Edit: Even in a short post, I spell something wrong!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Anne,

Excellent topic.

I think there are problems and advantages with both. If the dog is always corrected for passing a corner, or coming slightly off the track or other minor infractions then the dog will be too worried to try to figure out the track if he runs into problems. 

On the other hand if you allow the dog too much freedom to work the track as he wants to then you end up with a dog that does exactly that. He will lack precision. This dog is less likely to fail but also not likey to "V".


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Thank you Art...now....if you will.....please answer the questions.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Sorry, the question is how do I do it? As a puppy I let the dog kind of figure out the track; there is a lot of food and I help him when he needs it. As he gets a little older I insist that he is very precise on the corners, at the articles, and the dog learns that there are consequences for being sloppy in his work. He also learns that he must go forward to the articles and that quiting is not an option. When he knows this I make the dog "happy" to track again. I allow him more freedom to figure out difficult sections so that he does not shutdown, but I try not to let the dog get "too happy", if he does I can go back to some of the things he learned in the "precise stage" and balance this. 
So to answer the question, what I allow the dog to do is dependent on where the dog is in training and what I am working on with him.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Puppies/young dogs I make the corners so easy that they rarely miss them except when it is very windy. Then I help them so they don't make much of a mistake. Older dogs I actually allow mistakes within reason. I want my dogs to learn how to calmly refind a track when they have lost scent. In doing this I am also learning to read my dog. To reward my dog for finding a corner I usually have a hidden food drop maybe right after, a food drop a little ways down the track after the corner or an article. Sometimes I also just use praise. Depends on the level of the dog. The more advanced my dog the more I might use a verbal corrections "eh" if they get off the track too much. I want them to search tightly to the track, yet still know what to do if they totally lose scent (saved me on my SchH2). 

Why? I think they need to understand what to do if they lose scent and not panic. I want a tight pretty "V" track just like most competitors. I have decided, though, that I would rather have a dog that can consistently work even the hardest tracks than one who V's some days and gets 0 when the conditions aren't perfect.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: VandalOk, I tried to think of a topic that people could answer and not get tense about. Since it's the holidays, everyone is a bit on edge already. No one needs to offer advice and I will try to keep the words really simple so Joker won't get hot under his blue collar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha simple is good for me and my dog no Ph.D's needed for my tracking program.
In the learning stages I would let him circle and figure it out as he progressed I would block him or "hold him". 
Once his foundation was strong enough and he was strong enough I use force to make perfect everything. Now at the corners at least at this point I allow him to circle and find it seldom dose he go a dog length past he will usually back up and check and make his turn.
But we cant make V with this sort of a corner my dog can track he just got to the corner so what happened I think he wasn't concentrating hard enough. So at this point with him I don't want to put pressure on the corner it self and screw up the act of changing direction. 
So to make perfect I use pressure on the track itself which causes him to concentrate very hard at what he is supposed to be doing when he is concentrating very hard he doesnt shoot corners and he will paint them like he's on rails. 
He's a really nice natural tracker it would a wast to not to try and make perfect.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I guess everyone is just running straight tracks?











This is what I do. Like Lisa, I make the first corners easy and more like a curve than 90 degree. When the dog masters that I gradually make them tighter.
From the beginning, I lay the straight part of the track in a way that will cue the dog to the fact that the track has stopped and is now headed in another direction. That has to do with the length of stride and how I walk. Once I make the turn tighter, my dogs will usually get to the corner and maybe pass by a neck and then indicate in some way that the track is not there. At that point, I praise the dog for indicating that and then encourage the dog to show me where the track went by saying, "where is it?". I hold the dog from making forward movement and once he finds which way the track goes, I praise him quietly again and allow him to advance down that leg. The reason I do this is to build drive and confidence on the corner vs making stress where the dog will get frantic and not be able to "think". Trials are different than training and for me, I want the dog's drive to go up a little when he gets lost .

Eventually, when the dog is really good at corners, I will jump off and start the track again about two feet from the corner so the dog has to look a bit harder for it. Same scenario where I hold the dog there if I need to but by then, I usually don't have to do that much.

I have used compulsion in years past and will still get on my dogs if they quit. However, I have not corrected my dogs on corners for years and years now. That is because I see so many dogs lose drive there and display all kinds of stress behaviors when I have walked with others on the track. I still remember one dog years ago. I was walking with the handler and the dog just barely passed the corner and then indicated that the track was gone. Whammo, big correction from the handler and the dog just sort of melted there. We had a little discussion and then laid another track. When he got to the corner and indicated, I told the handler to praise him, WHAT a difference in that dog. The body language was completely different and what had previously taken him about 30 seconds to find, only took about 3 seconds and he was on his way down the second leg. Even the handler could see it and while I am not being sarcastic, I will say I am constantly amazed at how much people do NOT see in their dogs when they are tracking with them. They also do not seem to realize that the dog is in a lower state of drive and therefore, the little things the handler does there has a much larger effect than the other two phases. 

Ok, anyone else?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: VandalI guess everyone is just running straight tracks?


At this point... pretty much 
As a real newbie in tracking, I am reading, talking to people, and then trying stuff. 
I have been putting footsteps closer together as I approach a turn, and doing a 90 degree turn with a food drop after. As he turns, I verbally praise. I am still close to him, just right behind.
So far that is working. But I am working with a VERY intense young dog who loves, loves, loves to use his nose.
So I may just be lucking out


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

With the very first dog I tracked I did a lot of straight tracks and when she was doing these well I introduced corners. She had a VERY difficult time figuring out that the track turned. Funny thing is that I was tracking in snow. She could see the track, but she KNEW the track had to go straight. I now introduce corners pretty much right away.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: lhczth.....but she KNEW the track had to go straight.


Definitely will keep that in mind!

I know someone who starts their dogs with tracking circles, rather than scent pads or straight legs.

Any thoughts on that?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: VandalI guess everyone is just running straight tracks?


Yep, pretty much.







Bison has done a total of three corners. The first one didn't even phase him. The second he did a little circle and found his way right away and the third he turned very nicely again. I plan to continue to let him "figure it out" until I am sure that he "gets it".


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Mary,

Are you referring to serpentines?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

No. They are actually starting the dogs/puppies on a circle. No scent pads. Then the circle can become a turn (or a straight line).
I have not seen it followed through with, so not sure what the outcome would be.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Mary,

I know of one well known trainer who would lay the track as an arc or curve when starting dogs.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Art,

That is what I was referring to as well.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86Mary,
> 
> Are you referring to serpentines?


I think if I remember rite Summer was doing the circle thing with her dog
Her dog would approach the track hot and hectic the technique if I remember rite is you bait the circle heavy drop the line and let her chill. 
Don't know if it worked or cooled her down or not I haven't seen them track since last spring.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Mike,

Not sure about Summer. Was referring to someone else.


We heavy bait the circle and then lay the track. I did serpintines with my dogs and then sequeway'ed (sp) into the corners after a few tracks. I was lucky - I had a tracking fool for a dog


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Haven't tracked in ages...but when we began tracking we did scent pad circles and then connected the scent pad circles and I think from there began corners don't remember all the steps


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I pretty much never did straight tracks. We went from the scent box to serpentines right away. First wide serpentines, then tighter until they became corners. Only when Diabla was already doing corners I introduced the straight lines.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

To answer the questions-

I have not had a dog circle- but then, with young dogs I do serpentines not corners.

I DO have dogs that will occasionally pass by a corner, be it from excess speed (Draco) or because he was "pretending to track" (Torro). In the one who is going to fast, I am leery to do or say anything anymore. Ideally, he would be tracking slower, and we work on that with every track. The scent registered a few steps past, and he sometimes almost does a headstand. I say nothing, allow him to scent to the right (or left, envisioning right turn in my head), and tell him he is good when he's back on the right track. Im afraid that chastising him will add to his nerves (Malinois) and make him even faster.

My youngest dog was started with the circle method. I wanted him to know he can slow down and take his time. I think sometimes a dog has so much drive to go forward, then we are holding back with the line to keep them slow, that it makes crazy dogs in tracking, or too much speed.


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