# GSDCA



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

_AKC WA466021 09-65_

I'm still burnt on europeds, but I sort of have a taste for some gsdca here now. Looks like the entire gsdca line is down to lance of fran-jo, and gsdca is just criscrossing wgsl now? does anyone here know?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

_AKC DL41370101_

I realize the type is currently out of fashion, but in terms of diversity, where ya gonna go?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Lance was bred to a lot due to his type and produced really crappy working dogs which highly contributed to the demise of the American lines.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

You're confusing the national breed club (GSDCA) with specific lines of dogs. 

That acronym doesn't stand for American-bred dogs, it stands for the parent club.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Unfortunately gsdca is apparently no longer maintaining their *database*, so I have no choice but to appeal here. A quick browse of their modern *grand victors *reveals they either go back to lance of fran-jo, or recent german conformation imports. I have* no interest *in disparaging anybody or any pedigree with this, I'm only trying to identify extant lines.

usa conformation folk, show me your living peds. Let's see how many lines we've got on this side of the pond.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Folks can quibble over quando all they like. You’ve either got an immo, or a klodo, or a glockenbrink. Somebody please prove me wrong. I don’t want to be right. I imagine some obscure extant lines persist way out in the bush somewhere, but who's ever going to find them? I’m astounded the global genepool is so small, and considering current events I expect it’s about to contract even further…

The fact that somewhere along the way the old GSDCA line diverged from the rest of the genepool is self evident. As I see it all the conformation importers, all the working line importer/breeders, and all the GSDCA x euro conformation crossbreeders are pretty well chasing the same nickel. While I have zero interest in getting into_ any of that game_, I’d be only too eager in lending a hand to anyone interested in… let’s just say “_stewarding_” the old GSDCA line into the future…


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'll bite...

Do quando, immo, or klodo have full names you might consider elaborating on...or should we guess? 

And glockenbrink is a kennel name right, so are you referring to a specific glockenbrink dog, or any dog from that kennel over a period of years?

Also, if you go far enough back in any new breed, in the beginning the gene pool is pretty limited. How does it become more "diversified" from there without outcrossing? 

And, are we talking strictly sire lines here, or all of the genes brought into the mix? 

Truth be told, I don't know squat about pedigrees. But I tend to look at the dam lines as well for strengths and weaknesses in the offspring. 

Probably because I'm so new to this and don't really know what I'm looking at...

Please, clarify berno! How do you see it?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Spoken like a competent breeder, TS Adams. Everything you say above is spot on. I always think/talk/type breeding in terms of paternal because I’m always considering whatever remains of a breed’s studbook, rather than individual pedigrees. “Studbook” was the way breeds used to be organized according to paternal “families” (aka lines).
A competent breeder cannot over estimate the significance of maternal when planning a breeding. As you click through the database, note how the great ones were *clearly* influenced by the maternal in their peds. Not just the dams, but the grand and great grand dams as well.
Now, rather than getting all population sciencey on ya, I’ll just be perfectly brutally honest. The 7/8 ddr ped on the 104 day old pup I’m training here is near as good as any, and I can already see he’ll never be physically capable of the same athleticism my other dogs exhibit. It’s not even fair to compare because he comes from such an extremely _isolated_ and therefore extensively _mutated_ population, and I couldn’t ask for a more perfect segue back to gsdca.



tim_s_adams said:


> How does it become more "diversified" from there without outcrossing?


precisely! for example, just off the top of my head here tonight









put some of this behind some of that for outbreeding enhancement








wean as soon as half the f1 litter is able to crunch ol’ roy and begin conditioning for day 51 vpat








backcross f1 vpat selection for maximum inbreeding enhancement, wean as soon as half the bc1 litter is able to crunch ol’ roy, condition for day 51 vpat, and _shazzam!_








old time hockey!! I never knew the man but I expect v. stephanitz would be pleased with such a fate for the old gsdca lance of fran-jo line. It may not fly at nurnberg or westminster, but what wins there isn’t able to fly here on my place. Hence my affinity for ALL those “wild types” way back in the database.









_SZ 44 (Band 1)_

_







_
_SZ 1438_









I spent about 2 hours observing a *TWELVE YEAR OLD* “royal” (_extra large_) standard poodle today. Healthy as a horse! That thing probably covered 4 or 5 miles just happily prancing and galloping around while I was there. Obviously 12yrs is a mighty long run and he won't be around much longer, but he sure looked good today.
Nowadays there’s bench bred “show” poodles and field bred “hunting” poodles. The dog is a cross between the 2 types, and you can clearly see other gundog breed genetics expressing themselves from the “field-bred” side of his akc pedigree. That type don’t fly at westminster either, but to my eye he is an outstanding specimen. Head and shoulders beyond the bench type so dearly cherished within conformation circles today.









_SZ 241 (SHSB 2243)_

Just found this dog. Never seen it before. Looks like a bouvier to me? or maybe bergamasco? same difference... here he is again Russ von der Krone – working-dog

gsd word and picture: Ruß von der Krone "Shaggy haired german shepherd, so called old german, southern germany. russ von der krone, sz 241." I can't remember where I was going with this thread now? 

der deutch schaferhund in wort und bild


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Exactly! Too bad you have to have political connections to ever have that kind of thing work for the breed!

GSD is, without a doubt, THE best breed of dog there is!

But honestly, where's the diversity?

Honestly, I've whelped my share of mixed breed puppies. Not ever for profit, but for the betterment of the GSD breed!

Doberman was my favorite outcross.

Worked well for me. 3 generations and you couldn't tell...

Ah, but this might be the wrong forum for that news LOL!

Hardy dogs though, living into their teens always! No health issues at all!

Go figure...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Here's my BYB GSD:


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Last dog I'll ever own...what a priviledge! She's absolutely awesome!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> Exactly! Too bad you have to have political connections to ever have that kind of thing work for the breed!
> 
> GSD is, without a doubt, THE best breed of dog there is!
> 
> ...


I actually really think targeted out-crossing in a lot of breeds could be extremely beneficial. I don't know that there is much point in GSDs though. We could most likely just encourage the mixing of lines. If we could find healthy and temperamentally sound byb bred dogs since they're less likely to have generations of current popular sires they'd be more likely to add some diversity without having the hassle of adding in new breeds and worrying about introducing different breed specific disorders in shepherds. You'd still maybe get a couple generation of funky dogs but they could easily be soft culled.

I do think outcrossing could help so so many breeds though if done properly. Particularly with the bans against cropping and docking and the extreme health issues partially due to a limited gene pool. I actually picked it as a topic to write a paper on that included an action plan of how to do it. Homozygosity is a real issue that is detrimental to an extent even though it is obviously very useful.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I wish you luck on your paper. But define "properly" for me.

It's a HUGE can of worms you might be wise to stay away from! LOL!

There is NO properly for most purists! It's all about lineage. Must be "properly" documented. Doesn't matter if the breed suffers because of it, documentation is key.

Well, quite frankly it ain't! What matters most is the dog in front of you! 

Is he/she the dog you need/want/expected, given what you know about the lines?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> I wish you luck on your paper. But define "properly" for me.
> 
> It's a HUGE can of worms you might be wise to stay away from! LOL!
> 
> ...


Paper is done and graded, but thank you!

In my scenario properly would be kennel culb/parent club sponsored. There would be x amount of breeders allowed potentially varying by trait. So for example prick ears would have more slots open and may take more generations than NBTs because NBT is a dominant trait so its either there or it isn't. (Although since there may be varying tail lengths genetic testing would be helpful there.)

After/before breeder is accepted for the program all dogs used in the outcross would need extensive health testing to do the best to ensure no new health issues are introduced and no existing ones are further propagated. It takes roughly 3-4 generations to get back to breed type, and so I think puppy registration should require them to pass health testing, temperament/ability testing for the breed and follow breed type. All genes able to be tested for not part of the breed and not desired should be bred out before they're able to be registered. For example any colors not naturally in the breed. If mixing aussies into dobermans to get NBT there could be no merle in the puppies somebody wanted to register. 

Ideally if it was possible you'd want to use breeds that used to create the breed in the first place. Or perhaps breeds that were created from them. I used physical traits but another good example would be LUA in dalmations. I'm not fond of the fact that they only used one dog in the outcross because now all LUA dalmations have to be related back to that one dog. But at least they were able to do it even though it was a huge fight and uproar.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Too bad you have to have political connections to ever have that kind of thing work for the breed!


luckily forum rules_* strictly prohibit *_politics 










That’s a fine looking lady TS Adams. I’m only 14hrs from denver… just sayin’...

I don’t even waste time voicing opposition anymore because it’s too late. The highest echelon$ of the dog fancy have been AI’ing multi-sire composite litters in a futile attempt to create biological diversity for quite awhile. If working dog breeding in the private sector even has a future, the market will force it to evolve just like commercial agriculture. Mailorder purebred sires x locally adapted strains. If you endeavor to plant commercial apples, you must graft high performance scionwood onto established locally adapted rootstocks. In order to survive in the protein market, or grain market, or produce market, or even just your local farmers market anymore, you must invest in hybrid genetics. All the way down to the lowly meat rabbit. Just the way everything everywhere operates now and there’s no going back, except by way of cataclysm. All anybody can do about any of it is party ‘till the lights go out.

I haven’t even scratched the surface yet, but wow! Gsd and wolf chained to the same post. Bunch of native herding types. Early manwork fotos. *Fascinating stuff*.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I just wrote a 7 gen ped here and it's a pretty fun study. It's not a dog ped and I definitely don't recommend inbreeding dogs to this extent. It's a dairy ped so the goals are specifically maternal/milk production oriented. Obviously I come from the robert bakewell school of inbreeding Theory  What makes this ped work, hopefully, is the fact that all the inbreeding is concentrated behind the paternal/s, whereas the maternal "tail" springs from a unique ancestor. It wouldn't amount to much on an inbreeding calculator, COI and AVK are... beyond beyond... but if you can get your mind around this ped, gsd peds will read much easier.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Kazel said:


> I actually really think targeted out-crossing in a lot of breeds could be extremely beneficial. I don't know that there is much point in GSDs though. We could most likely just encourage the mixing of lines. If we could find healthy and temperamentally sound byb bred dogs since they're less likely to have generations of current popular sires they'd be more likely to add some diversity without having the hassle of adding in new breeds and worrying about introducing different breed specific disorders in shepherds. You'd still maybe get a couple generation of funky dogs but they could easily be soft culled.


So my favorite subject Saboteur, aka Sabi.
For several years I lamented the fact that she was a byb dog. No traceable lineage to work with.
Temperament was stellar, drives balanced, energy level could have been higher but was high enough to be useful, rock solid nerves, high thresholds, innate herding, tracking and protection. Like no training required. 
Health was an issue, size was an issue. But if I could have tapped those genetics, yes perhaps some fine tuning needed but with a good stud....
She was so close, and even with bad hips and DM worked past her tenth birthday and lived to nearly 13 so not horrible. 
It's been theorized for years now that the byb dogs may hold the key. There is a potential gold mine of untapped genetics there. The issue is how to use it. Someone is going to have to start tracking "pedigrees" and go from there. No one wants to cross that line.


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