# Public corrections



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had a weird experience today in a big box pet store. I had my puppy with me to socialize him. Two women with two toddlers, one in a cart and one walking, came over to pet him. He was very friendly with the women and licked the hand of the boy in the cart. The women were very curious about what I was doing (sit, watch, wait, calm). They said they had a bulldog (Pitt?) and had never trained it. I think the women were sisters. 

While we were talking the little girl moved closer and my puppy suddenly gave out a huge warning bark. Barking at children is NOT an option. He has been showing a little early reactivity toward dogs, but never toward a child. I had him in a training collar, but instead of using that, grabbed the thick fur on both sides of his neck, gave one firm shake (not hard just firm) looked him in the eye and said No! In a loud, deep voice. He immediately sat down, put his ears down in a submissive pose and did his watch that I've taught him. He didn't budge. 

I turned around to the women and said I'm sorry about the bark, it won't happen again. They were backing away from me and looked scared, not of my dog but of me.

I didn't think much of it, was glad I averted a bigger problem and kept walking around the store. My puppy stood in heel position and walked perfectly next to me. We walked by the grooming area. He saw several dogs and for the first time in a week, didn't react at all to them. His behavior was almost perfect and with one correction that was far less jarring than anything my older dog does to him when playing.

The area I shop is very PC. I think those women thought I was abusing my dog. They would rather see him bark at their toddler than be taught not to do it again. I'm puzzled and feeling very annoyed that I can't even feel comfortable teaching my dog in public. I'm mostly doing positive, but I will never risk a child's safety, and all positive wasn't going to get the point across. I may never have to do that again. What would the rest of you do?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sometimes a single, properly timed, strong enough to be effective, correction is more humane as it nips a problem in the bud so to speak and the dog does not spend any time in the bad place, where they are working themselves up, barking at people, dogs, kids, whatever, and we are trying to work with them slowly and carefully under their threshold.

You really can't explain that well, because the owner has to be savvy enough to know the dog, to have the right timing, to give the correction with respect to the dog, etc. And, frankly, too many of them will be too wimpy, too late, or too heavy handed for the dog they have. 

If it worked, good.

Don't worry about the people in the pet store. Let them be afraid of you. Who cares. They do not have to live with your dog.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> What would the rest of you do?


Whatever the situation calls for. Don't worry about what other people think.


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## Jugisland (Oct 9, 2015)

yeah don't worry about what people say ... some folks do not have a clue about dog training ... all they see is 'OMG this monstrous animal abusive person is being so cruel to that poor dog' ... I already hate those stupid people.

I was socializing my puppy (he was 4 months old) on walks and I taught him nicely at least 25 times not to start chasing the passing cars. Then one day I grabbed him by the thick fur of his neck and gave him a quick firm shake saying NOOO as soon as he tried to chase a passing car ... some silly woman jogging by stopped and yelled at me "the poor little guy is doing just fine ..stop it" .... well all that matters to me is that my puppy is 7 months old now and he never ever chases passing cars anymore ... he hasn't done it even once after that firm shake.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nothing short of offering your dog a treat would have satisfied them. Pretty much that simple. I'd be more concerned about where they and their untrained undisciplined "Pit" live??

That is a dog you don't want to be anywhere near! You did good.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thank you all. I feel better. Seltzer, you and I have too many weird pet store experiences. I thought you would appreciate this one. Yes, one good correction not only stopped it but also the other reactivity which I expected and didn't happen.

Chip, I thought that too. Two small children with untrained Pitt bull. The owner said, my dog knows sit but he jumps on everyone, then she laughed. Maybe it's good my dog interrupted us, as I don't know what I would have said about that if I hadn't been. Who knows, maybe my dog sensed I was getting upset at her comments.

When I got to the register, the salesperson tried to sell me dog training classes.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

LuvShepherds said:


> The area I shop is very PC. I think those women thought I was abusing my dog. They would rather see him ba I'm mostly doing positive, but I will never risk a child's safety, and all positive wasn't going to get the point across. I may never have to do that again. What would the rest of you do?


You are the one that lives with your dog. Nobody knows it better than you. You can listen to others and decide if you'd like to try to add new tools to your training box. But never second guess a quick correction for behavior that is never tolerated. 

My (intact) Texas Blue Lacy is used for breed demos. He's out and about in the public all the time. He must behave. He responds best to positive training. There is no grey area for him. When I see him becoming tired or overwhelmed by a crowd (we could be at a demo for 8 - 10 hours) I put him in his crate for a rest. 

One day we were walking (on leash) in a very crowded stairwell in a county arena. I had him against the wall and I was keeping between him and other dogs as we were heading for the arena. A male dog (on leash) passed by us and lashed out, my dog responded (big no-no). Other people were grabbing at the aggressor and all I had room to do was to slip my leash in my dog's mouth (he was openly snapping at the other dog) and pull him back to the wall. My intent was to get control of his face so nobody would get bit. It worked. My dog isn't accustomed to physical corrections. I totally brought him back to me in that second. It could have been different. It could have escalated his behavior. BUT, I know my dog. If he had escalated, I had his face. 

I had to spend the rest of the day explaining this "training method". It's hard to explain a split reaction even when it's not a tool you keep in your training box.


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

You did very well with your correction and your puppy understood you perfectly. To someone who does not understand training this looks like abuse, it is not. It is responsible handling and training.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Who cares what people think -- one properly timed and appropriate correction is better than a dozen nagging ones


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Don't mean to be a prick....but this day and age....a big mean GSD attack killer dog etc... just has to do what yours did...and you could end up with all kinds of problems ( the legal type ). Your dog exhibited behavior which you did not expect, thankfully it was just a hearty bark. Unless I know the kids and they have been properly introduced to my dog, I tend to not allow strangers ( especially little ones ) get too close or pet my dog. Our country is way too litigious and if some kid is "traumatized" because of a seemingly benign moment with certain breeds of dogs.....you may change your viewpoint on who you allow to be in close proximity with your dog.......just saying...........

SuperG


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> While we were talking the little girl moved closer and my puppy suddenly gave out a huge warning bark


Then you corrected the dog which gave a submissive response as in it doesn't want to be corrected by you.

Problem i see is the children were invading the dogs space and he reacted and warned them or told them to back off in animal terms.

You should have been the one to politely tell the children/guardians to stand adequate distance from dog and don't stare into eyes talk to or try to make contact. Engage all in conversation. Be assertive. Takes focus off dog. You look like the boss 

Basically you should have known the children were getting too close and it was a dangerous situation. 

By correcting the dog you may run the risk of the dog not warning in future so to avoid the correction, and then it may go a step further and lunge instead of bark. It's an outside chance, but still possible.

Basically you need to control your environment around the dog and be very careful exposing it to children. Children are unpredictable, excited, noisy and at head height to a dog. 

Better to socialize with children you know, can communicate with and in an environment which you can control or predict to be calm with plenty of space, dog not backed up, or people passing by with children running around.

Time to rethink popular socialization.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

^ There's next to no chance this dog will suddenly decide to lunge instead of barking (next time). A handful of corrections will not result in that. 

Not correcting a bad behaviour is condoning it. A few proper corrections are going to be a hundred times more effective than countless hours or tip-toeing around the problem with treats and praise.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

MadLab said:


> . Engage all in conversation. Be assertive. Takes focus off dog. You look like the boss



You just made a ton of sense with those words......it answers a question I have had for quite some time.....thanks


SuperG


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Not correcting a bad behaviour is condoning it.


Being aware you have an issue and waiting and thinking how to solve it can be helpful sometimes. Rethinking and seeing what happened and what went wrong can be more productive in the long run than punishing the dog after an event. 

I wasn't there but sounds like the dog tolerated it for a bit and then expressed his discomfort with the children getting too close. Maybe it was right. Maybe with proper socialization over time in controlled environment and with children who get to know the dog instead of total strangers , the dog would be set up to succeed in these situations or be able to deal more with the pressure.

Maybe if the owner sensed the issue brewing and walked before the dog escalated, the dog would next time do a bit better and the next time a bit better. 

People should always try top work the dog within it's threshold and only over expose and flood the dog in controlled environments.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

SuperG, a big mean barely five month old puppy.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MadLab, so I'm at fault? The child wasn't getting closer, it was on the other side of the basket. My puppy loves greeting people and we are working on socializing. I've never seen him do that before and I will take precautions in the future around children, but I'm not going to stop socializing him or introducing him to new situations. He was pulling to greet them, not the other way around. The only mistake I made that I can see is taking my eyes off him, because I would have seen him start to react, and I take responsibility for that. I don't know any other way to get him used to people than to take him places. Otherwise he's home all day and not interacting with anyone other than family. We work with a private trainer who insists we take him everywhere and introduce him to all kinds of people.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm not trying to fault anyone.

I simply try to look at problems from different perspectives and sometimes that may be obscure to some. Everyone has a different theory on what motivates a dog to act. I might be wrong. I might be surmising. 

Still it could be food for thought or you can simply disagree with my opinion.

I will always consider the handling skills and what an owner could have done better in any situation. 

I always try to gauge my own actions around my dogs in different situations to see where i went wrong/right, missed an escape route, sensed danger/ avoided it etc. 

Never admitting a fault is a fault in itself.



> He was pulling to greet them, not the other way around. The only mistake I made that I can see is taking my eyes off him,


Allowing the dog pull you to where it wants to go could be considered a mistake. That may be 2 mistakes instead of the one you acknowledge. 

Your critical eye for dog behavior may need to be a bit more critical. Your dog pulls you toward a leashed dog, and you may be into a dog fight. Not trying to pick holes here, just trying to encourage you to look at the situation constructively so to avoid issues like these in future. I think dogs need to be prepared for these interactions not just thrown into them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL!!! We are talking about a puppy! Not a dog with a CD. Sorry, I am sure some people have their puppies 100% leash trained by 9 weeks old, but this one is barely five months old, and getting that heel absolutely perfect is not always there yet by that age. My pup will be barely 5 months when she goes to her first set of classes, and she will get zero training before then, and that works just fine for us.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Pet Peeve: A woman approaches us and asks if she can pet Newlie and I say "Yes" and tell Newlie to "sit." She responds "Oh, he doesn't have to." Well, yes, as a matter of fact, he does. Why? To use a mom-ism, because I said so.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I'm doing the best I can. I just lost a fear biter so I understand how that happens. He was a rescue and came to us with a lot of problems. A few things you don't know. This is a five month old puppy. He has met over 100 people and never had an issue with a person. He's a little dog reactive so I don't get him close to other dogs and I'm trying to just walk by them calmly, but this took me by surprise and I need to let him know it's not OK. I think he thought the child was a dog, which still isn't alright. After that happened, he trotted along next to me through the store for a while and greeted many people without an issue. He tends to be a very happy dog overall. He is extremely playful, the opposite of the dog we lost. 

Yes, the pulling is a problem and we are working on it. I just moved him into a training collar which helps. We are also working with a behaviorist and this is the first thing I'm going to bring up at our next meeting along with barking at strange dogs. The barking at other dogs just started and I've been able to cut it down a little on my own but not stop it. At our last session the trainer commented on our puppy's sociability.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

newlie said:


> Pet Peeve: A woman approaches us and asks if she can pet Newlie and I say "Yes" and tell Newlie to "sit." She responds "Oh, he doesn't have to." Well, yes, as a matter of fact, he does. Why? To use a mom-ism, because I said so.


 Yeah people say this, so it doesn't put you out. Just tell them, nicely, "that is how we greet people." You can add in your head: "most people don't like picking themselves off the ground wiping slobber off their faces" if it makes you feel better.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> I had a weird experience today in a big box pet store. I had my puppy with me to socialize him. Two women with two toddlers, one in a cart and one walking, came over to pet him. He was very friendly with the women and licked the hand of the boy in the cart. The women were very curious about what I was doing (sit, watch, wait, calm). They said they had a bulldog (Pitt?) and had never trained it. I think the women were sisters.
> 
> While we were talking the little girl moved closer and my puppy suddenly gave out a huge warning bark. Barking at children is NOT an option. He has been showing a little early reactivity toward dogs, but never toward a child. I had him in a training collar, but instead of using that, grabbed the thick fur on both sides of his neck, gave one firm shake (not hard just firm) looked him in the eye and said No! In a loud, deep voice. He immediately sat down, put his ears down in a submissive pose and did his watch that I've taught him. He didn't budge.
> 
> ...


Well that's not how I would have handled that. I had a very similar situation at about the same age only Seger was loose while we were training at the soccer filed and ran at a little boy barking like a heathen.

I grabbed his collar and made him sit. Then I gave the little boy treats to throw at his feet. I turned every little kid I could find into Pez Dispensers for my dog.

Try to see the world from your puppy's level. Little kids move quick, they squeak. So next time, inside of correcting him, make him sit and then have the child toss treats to him. NOT hand him the treats. Just toss them at his feet. 

IN fact, be proactive next time. Find a child, sit your puppy, toss the treats. BEFORE any reaction from him.

Small, squeaky, human = Pez Dispenser.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> SuperG, a big mean barely five month old puppy.


Hey...I hear ya....as I said up front " Don't mean to be a prick".

My words were not meant to be disparaging but more focused on the today's reality of being a GSD owner. All it takes is one incident taken out of "context" because of your pup's breed and your situation could change dramatically.

Let me paint the picture this way.....let's say your pup was a Cocker Spaniel / Beagle / Maltese pup etc. ...same age..and did exactly the same thing. The perception by others would be completely different....many would go..."ohhhhh...isn't that cute" or some other similar garbage but we all know the behavior is exactly the same...unacceptable but yet tolerated by the masses due to the breed. BUT...since you own a GSD there is an association which comes with the breed and "cute" becomes "ferocious" or "dangerous" to many because they are formidable creatures and the deck is stacked against you in this particular situation. But there is an upside to this and that is, since you take the pup's training seriously you will have a dog which is more controllable/civil than the breeds which seem harmless. 

I apologize if my words offended you, I simply was trying to pass on an opinion and different view of the situation you described.....which you probably did not expect.

I applaud you for taking responsibility for your pup's actions and not really giving a **** about what some other crazy all positive PETA types might have thought about your use of discipline.


SuperG


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax, Ok, that sounds like a good plan. Until today, he loved children. He has met many and he has been happy to meet them all. I have friends with young children who are used to big dogs and I can set that up in advance.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Well that's not how I would have handled that. I had a very similar situation at about the same age only Seger was loose while we were training at the soccer filed and ran at a little boy barking like a heathen.
> 
> I grabbed his collar and made him sit. Then I gave the little boy treats to throw at his feet. I turned every little kid I could find into Pez Dispensers for my dog.
> 
> ...



I like this approach.....


SuperG


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Hey...I hear ya....as I said up front " Don't mean to be a prick".
> 
> My words were not meant to be disparaging but more focused on the today's reality of being a GSD owner. All it takes is one incident taken out of "context" because of your pup's breed and your situation could change dramatically.
> 
> ...


You didn't upset me so much as confuse me. Yes, I'm working with him all the time. I'm very tired today so I might have been more alert on another day. I was trying to buy something and was taken by surprise when those people walked over to me in a very empty store. He might have picked up on that. 

A friend who works in a dog business said the best behaved dogs she's met are Pitt bulls because people know they have to be trained. I think that is true of our breed, too, although she said the German Shepherds she walks are all very anxious. Maybe because their owners aren't around? I don't know anyone with a German Shepherd who isn't all over their training. I've owned a lot of our breed and each one is completely different. So much for breed characteristics. Yes, they have similarities but their personalities are all unique and challenging.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

selzer said:


> Yeah people say this, so it doesn't put you out. Just tell them, nicely, "that is how we greet people." You can add in your head: "most people don't like picking themselves off the ground wiping slobber off their faces" if it makes you feel better.


Hahaha! Yes indeed! And those very same people would be the ones to complain about my ill-mannered dog if I let him jump up, etc.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> Being aware you have an issue and waiting and thinking how to solve it can be helpful sometimes. Rethinking and seeing what happened and what went wrong can be more productive in the long run than punishing the dog after an event.
> 
> I wasn't there but sounds like the dog tolerated it for a bit and then expressed his discomfort with the children getting too close. Maybe it was right. Maybe with proper socialization over time in controlled environment and with children who get to know the dog instead of total strangers , the dog would be set up to succeed in these situations or be able to deal more with the pressure.
> 
> ...


 In, essence you are correct of course but as it is essentially a people friendly puppy it sounds like the OP just got caught out by the dogs reaction?? Let her guard down as it were. 

Box stores are a high-risk environment. Usually well traveled by the ignorant and the clueless and they bring their dogs with them! 


What works for "me" is "situational awareness," and if caught off guard, my default is to block advances. I go between my dog and whoever, no words no corrections, I move first then address a given situation.  

I have only been "frustrated" once by a 14 year old, "who came out of nowhere." He "attempted" to pet "Rocky" without going through me so I blocked him. Rocky never flinched, he'd seen this before (the block). I explained the hows and whys of why, no he could not pet my dog. Although to be honest none of it actually applied anymore (the people thing.) He said "well he looks fine to me?" And in truth he was correct! I stepped aside, he petted "Rocky" and said "he's a good dog."


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> I was trying to buy something and was taken by surprise when those people walked over to me in a very empty store. He might have picked up on that.
> 
> Yes, they have similarities but their personalities are all unique and challenging.



I think this echos what Madlab said earlier.... something I have learned over the years from the 3 GSDs I have had and that is......vigilance. If I had to describe a GSD in as few words as possible...one of the words would be vigilant. I've truly learned the idea of being two steps ahead of my current shepherd but she beats me to the punch so many times because of her hearing, smell, vision and ability to read body postures....being proactive with a GSD can be difficult at times.....but I truly trust my dog's instincts and use her subtle signals to put out a fire before it is obvious.


SuperG


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A young pup Im sure most had a similar experiences. You are teaching and showing your pup how to behave and letting him know he has nothing to worry about when exposing them to many new things. You learn as you go and figure out if you are comfortable or not the way things went. It always good to have a plan. Jax pez dispenser plan is a great plan and with this next time your pup is in the similar situation he will relax and knowing good things happen like yummy treats.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No problem with having the kids be pez dispensers. If the puppy ever barks at another kid, though, I wouldn't allow the dispensing for that. 

As for the problems with lawsuits and such, summer before last, had Moofy at a soccer field where my sister's kids were playing soccer with a group. Moofie was born in April so he was maybe 3-4 months old. He was being so good, so careful. But I was an idiot and clipped his nails prior to coming. He put a paw on a little girl's arm and the nail gave her a little scratch. And come to be the little girl who is most likely to have a meltdown. 

But her mom was ok. The dog didn't bite her. Just scratched her a little. I felt bad, and Moofie was viewed as a piranha. I kept him away from little kids the rest of the day. My sister was unworried, the folks she had there, her roommates, were both acting like people would sue me because my puppy scratched a little kid in a non-aggressive manner. 

It's sad we have to worry about such things. I mean, little kids can throw sticks and rocks at our dogs, and rarely does any little kid's folks get sued for damage they do to dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> Jax, Ok, that sounds like a good plan. Until today, he loved children. He has met many and he has been happy to meet them all. I have friends with young children who are used to big dogs and I can set that up in advance.


I was mortified when Seger did that! I was tripping over myself apologizing. That little kid had nerves of steel. LOL Never flinched.

Definitely do that with your friends. I never allowed Seger to get within range of them, just let him see them tossing the food. And I always made him sit first. I wanted him sitting and quiet before I doled out treats for them to toss to him


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I'm definitely going to introduce him to more children. He's met a lot of children already in our area, but this was a tiny child who wasn't doing anything at all, not even moving quickly. I was tired, out of sorts and probably shouldn't have been there to begin with. I will give treats in advance but once he misbehaved, there was no way I was giving him treats. I didn't even think about walking away. Now I've learned a lesson about places like that. If people want to come up to him in that kind of environment, I'm going to go back to the standard I used with my fearful dog. I'm training and I would appreciate you not approach him. 

I realized I'm even more sensitive than I should be about his behavior because I've owned a fear aggressive dog. I wouldn't even have thought about it had I not had difficult fosters and the rescue we ended up keeping. He's not going to turn into a biter because he mistook a child for a dog, which I'm positive is what happened. When we got home, there was a lot of tree debris in the street and he barked at that. I took him over to sniff it and when he realized it wasn't alive, he lost interest.

I started looking at how far we've come since we got him at 8 weeks. He was a landshark, so two months spent getting No Bite in perfect form. He almost never mouths anyone except our other dog. She has taught him bite inhibition for me. For a 5 month old, we are making good progress. He knows Sit, Down, Wait, Here (I'm not using Come until he's proofed on recall), Place, and Let's Go (pre-heeling, a near perfect heel). He also knows Get in your crate, and Off when he feels like it, and Gentle for treats. I'm working on backing up. I've also taught him to bark on command and I'm teaching him Quiet, which he mixes up with Sit. When I say Quiet, he stops barking and sits, usually. I also have a word I won't repeat when the two dogs are wrestling too much and annoying me, to break them up and it works. I'm now trying to use shaping for the pivot but he's not getting it. His little rear end doesn't want to move at all.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> The area I shop is very PC. I think those women thought I was abusing my dog. They would rather see him bark at their toddler than be taught not to do it again. I'm puzzled and feeling very annoyed that I can't even feel comfortable teaching my dog in public. I'm mostly doing positive, but I will never risk a child's safety, and all positive wasn't going to get the point across. I may never have to do that again. What would the rest of you do?


I can't say I would have corrected in that scenario - maybe, maybe not. More likely I'd have firmly warned the dog, "Uh-uh. You're fine" (my stock phrase for, "Let me handle this"), calmly stepped between the puppy and kid, and explained nicely to the child that the puppy was tired and needed a little space. I've had to do this before (the body block and explanation, come to think of it I don't think my dog has ever barked at a kid...she has an absolutely creepy level of love for children).

With respect to an action deserving correction: I absolutely would, and have, corrected my dog in public. I am very controlled about it - as dispassionate as possible - but I do it.

I assume that most sane people will be glad I am teaching my dog and making sure she's under my control while out in the community. The ones who would flip out about it don't matter to me; after all, who's responsible for her safety, which sometimes means teaching and yes correcting her? I am, they're not.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It was not a typical child racing up situation. The women had a cart like a grocery cart and the toddler, about 2-3 yrs old, was behind the basket. She wasn't anywhere near the dog, she just moved a few inches. She wasn't running around or high energy, mostly just standing there. He saw the movement and barked at that. Or I assume so. Maybe he was barking at the woman who was talking. I didn't think about that. I'm still going to avoid that particular type of situation again.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Maybe your pup thought he could easily take the punk ....and just tested the waters with a simple bark??? Little humans do solicit interesting responses from a younger dog as they are getting used to the scenery.


SuperG


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> It was not a typical child racing up situation. The women had a cart like a grocery cart and the toddler, about 2-3 yrs old, was behind the basket. She wasn't anywhere near the dog, she just moved a few inches. She wasn't running around or high energy, mostly just standing there. He saw the movement and barked at that. Or I assume so. Maybe he was barking at the woman who was talking. I didn't think about that. I'm still going to avoid that particular type of situation again.


Right, and I am so sorry if I implied that I thought you were wrong!

We're individuals with different dogs who might have completely valid reasons for reading and therefore handling a situation differently. Plus, you were there. You would have the very best vantage point for assessing and acting.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Watery, I got all screwed up after working for years with a crazy rescue and now I am doubting my own instincts. It's Ok, I was upset on Monday at all the questions of my decision because I wasn't asking for affirmation, but I can always learn. I was surprised at how many said I should have walked away or used treats, which are things I've done before if the situation calls for it. My dog is starting to react to other dogs and nothing I'm doing seems to work to let him know it's not Ok or needed. I tried a prong on him and it works but I won't use it in a crowded situation because he will pull and hurt himself. I have a head collar but he hates it. I need something as he pulls and is getting too strong for me.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> Watery, I got all screwed up after working for years with a crazy rescue and now I am doubting my own instincts. It's Ok, I was upset on Monday at all the questions of my decision because I wasn't asking for affirmation, but I can always learn. I was surprised at how many said I should have walked away or used treats, which are things I've done before if the situation calls for it. My dog is starting to react to other dogs and nothing I'm doing seems to work to let him know it's not Ok or needed. I tried a prong on him and it works but I won't use it in a crowded situation because he will pull and hurt himself. I have a head collar but he hates it. I need something as he pulls and is getting too strong for me.


That sort of surprised me too (the treat suggestion). I guess because I wouldn't have thought of it, to be honest; I don't even carry treats anymore unless we're going to class. 

My thinking was based on my fear of training that warning out of her. I want her to give that last heads up. But you may not feel that same fear, or it might be outweighed by a different goal, and that's okay; we all have different ways of assessing risk and mitigating it. I'd bet a lot of that is also dependent on our individual dogs or situations.

Regardless, I'm completely on your side with respect to public corrections. Sometimes you have to do it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> My dog is starting to react to other dogs and nothing I'm doing seems to work to let him know it's not Ok or needed. I tried a prong on him and it works but I won't use it in a crowded situation because he will pull and hurt himself. I have a head collar but he hates it. I need something as he pulls and is getting too strong for me.


I don't think he'll hurt himself LS. Stay out of the crowded situations for a while and show him he has to listen. Try cinching the prong up high and tight like you see mentioned here all the time and shorten up the leash. If you correct, correct straight up. It doesn't take a lot of strength. After a correction, loose leash. Still shortened up, but loose.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I was sitting at an outdoor cafe with Summer a few months ago. She had been in a down stay for over an hour and was doing very well. A couple sat down about four empty table and chair sets away and sure enough started making contact and comments to her that she saw and I did not. Needless to say - she took out 3 chairs and one table trying to bolt to them to say hi. 

I gave her a correction with the prong and she yelped and they were horrified. I explained to them that she was in training and sorry but it has to be done. They got real quiet and ignored me and Summer settled back down like it never happened. Pretty sure that was a one time needed lesson because the leash taking out the table and chairs caught her attention too.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Steve, I'm thinking about our puppy class (which a lot of you think I should quit). I need to get him into the class and back to the car again. He must be able to wall from point A to point B without pulling or misbehaving. He does that on a walk with no one around. He completely ignores me when he sees other dogs and people. The class is in a busy area, so just getting in and out is crowded. Today, I've been working on reinforcing the heel position with a clicker and I'm also using luring into a heel. I'm thinking if I can get him as solid on heel position as he is on sit, I might have better results. I don't really have any places where we can observe dogs from a distance. If I go to popular walking places, they are all walking around too, and we are either too far or too close to get him used to ignoring dogs. I'm still working on it because I'm stubborn and I'm determined to get him into the class and working even if he wants to be out of control. 

I've used a prong on four purebred GSDs (I used to use other collars and devices) so I know how to use it. But so far, I haven't had to give him a single correction in the collar. Once I do, I think I will lose some of the effectiveness. Right now, he corrects himself and pulls himself back into heel position, but that's without distractions. I've all different sized prongs. He doesn't have much undercoat yet, so I'm using the smallest one. He responds instantly to his own corrections.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stone, my female did that to me! I was with a friend and I tied the dog to a small metal table so I could go buy a drink while my friend sat with the dog. When I came back, the dog jumped up and my friend's coffee went flying along with the table. This was my trained dog! That friend hasn't called or met me since.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> Today, I've been working on reinforcing the heel position with a clicker and I'm also using luring into a heel.


I did some work with a Sch trainer last autumn that explained the problem with "luring into heel" position (how I was originally taught to teach heel): it teaches the dog that "heel" means to _come_ into heel position, not to _stay_ there.

The way they teach heel (in their club) is different: position the dog next to a solid wall (fence/countertop/etc.), in a sit, with you standing so as to have proper heeling position. Give heel command, mark, reward. Rinse & repeat so the dog associates the command with the _position_ (relative to you), rather than the _action_ of getting into position. Then introduce forward movement using opposition reflex (helper behind you holds leash and slightly pulls back - the dog's reflex is to push forward, at which point the helper eases off the pressure and the dog moves forward with you, in heel). Same idea for moving backwards with the dog keeping heel position. Then they introduce turns, side-steps, etc. That process makes a lot of sense.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> Stone, my female did that to me! I was with a friend and I tied the dog to a small metal table so I could go buy a drink while my friend sat with the dog. When I came back, the dog jumped up and my friend's coffee went flying along with the table. This was my trained dog! That friend hasn't called or met me since.


Hah. Been there.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> Steve, I'm thinking about our puppy class (which a lot of you think I should quit). I need to get him into the class and back to the car again. He must be able to wall from point A to point B without pulling or misbehaving. He does that on a walk with no one around. He completely ignores me when he sees other dogs and people. The class is in a busy area, so just getting in and out is crowded. Today, I've been working on reinforcing the heel position with a clicker and I'm also using luring into a heel. I'm thinking if I can get him as solid on heel position as he is on sit, I might have better results. I don't really have any places where we can observe dogs from a distance. If I go to popular walking places, they are all walking around too, and we are either too far or too close to get him used to ignoring dogs. I'm still working on it because I'm stubborn and I'm determined to get him into the class and working even if he wants to be out of control.
> 
> I've used a prong on four purebred GSDs (I used to use other collars and devices) so I know how to use it. But so far, I haven't had to give him a single correction in the collar. Once I do, I think I will lose some of the effectiveness. Right now, he corrects himself and pulls himself back into heel position, but that's without distractions. I've all different sized prongs. He doesn't have much undercoat yet, so I'm using the smallest one. He responds instantly to his own corrections.


I look at the pulling on the leash a little different maybe. I look at it more as a disobedience and he should know the correction is coming from you, not just that his action can cause some discomfort. More that he's not going to pull you because you will punish him.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

yuriy said:


> The way they teach heel (in their club) is different: position the dog next to a solid wall (fence/countertop/etc.), in a sit, with you standing so as to have proper heeling position. Give heel command, mark, reward. Rinse & repeat so the dog associates the command with the _position_ (relative to you)


I saw this method with a single trainer using a wall on a Leerburg video. 20 feet outside my property line there is a business with a 50 foot long 30 foot high concrete wall. THAT's what I am going to use for the basic heeling, sit long and stay in place long training in a few weeks. It's perfect - no distractions, no visual or scent distractions, yet out on the busy street.  and I can use my knees to guide her back into a proper heel.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

yuriy said:


> LuvShepherds said:
> 
> 
> > Stone, my female did that to me! I was with a friend and I tied the dog to a small metal table so I could go buy a drink while my friend sat with the dog. When I came back, the dog jumped up and my friend's coffee went flying along with the table. This was my trained dog! That friend hasn't called or met me since.
> ...


Mine has humbled me many times.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Since I started this thread, I've been working with my puppy on leash work. I was able to walk him today with no pulling, using several different techniques, including s brief leash pop if needed. He needs very little of that kind of correction. 

I like using a wall, too. I've seen that technique but not having a second person behind you. I'm still looking for someone to work with me as a helper. We had a much better puppy class this week and I consulted a private trainer for more tips. Everyone who has observed my dog says we have a great dog with good temperament and a lot of potential, so I need to work more on my attitude. I've introduced him to more children properly and he was fine with all of them. He's even jumping less, which was my question last week.

This dog will never be tied to a cafe table. He would not only pull it over, he'd take it all the way home with him.


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