# Vom Davis German Shepherds



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

I recently had a deposit out down on the Rr orange boy out of Christine's Blackthorn WL German Shepherds and then the temperament test came back and he ended up not being a good fit for me. So, I'm trying to research some other breeders to broaden my search for my next puppy. I came across people talking about Vom Davis German Shepherds located in NC and they seem to be pretty solid dogs. Does anyone know anything about them? Pros? Cons? The litter I'm looking at is Joana ZVV 1(Czech Import) & Collins (Czech Import)


----------



## JBjunior (Feb 8, 2018)

What made him not a good fit for you? Anyway, what is your goal with the puppy? Looking at that kennel, they look to be breeding very active working line dogs that are gaining titles. The dam is ZVV 1, which is great, and the sire has a long line of titled dogs which is wonderful. I would like to see more information about the sire; what has he accomplished and why he is a breeding candidate, other than pedigree. Strangely, there is no information on their website about him that I can find and a google search turns up the pedigree, a few potential videos, and a snippet of information about narcotics detection training that goes to a broken link.

For some reason they have two kennel names with all of the same information. The other is Willow Green Kennels.....


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Can't help you with your questions but wanted to say kudos to Christine at Blackthorn for looking for the best matches for her buyers and her puppies. People deserve to be happy with their dogs. Ten plus years is a big commitment. The dogs deserve to be appreciated too.


----------



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

I have to other male dogs in my home. And the puppy I was going to use for nosework. It would have been great for that but it was an advantage seeking male with same sex agression is what the temperament test said


----------



## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Have considered a female ?


----------



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

huntergreen said:


> Have considered a female ?


I have but I have an intact male


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Many people here have intact dogs without problems. You can get advice on how to handle a female with your intact males.


----------



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> Many people here have intact dogs without problems. You can get advice on how to handle a female with your intact males.


True but I usually just stick with males.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

The temperament test said the puppy has same sex aggression? How old is this dog?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Christine is a very knowledgeable breeder. if she said the potential was there then she saw something.

@Zuka.GSD - vom evolution has a litter right now. Not sure what she has left but it's a repeat litter. I loved what I saw of the last litter. Confident, own the world. 
Nikki Banfield - Dog Trainer & Working Line German Shepherd Breeder


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I would absolutely trust Christine’s judgement. While I don’t have a Blackthorn dog, she was a breeder I talked to a few months ago when I started looking. We had a lengthy conversation about what I was looking for. She was especially interested in the dog I already owned and the dynamic of my house. The OP was very wise to be honest with her, as she will be with a potential puppy buyer.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Zuko.GSD said:


> I have to other male dogs in my home. And the puppy I was going to use for nosework. It would have been great for that but it was an advantage seeking male with same sex agression is what the temperament test said


Was there some reason Christine didn't just pick a different pup or different litter for you?


----------



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Zuko.GSD said:
> 
> 
> > I have to other male dogs in my home. And the puppy I was going to use for nosework. It would have been great for that but it was an advantage seeking male with same sex agression is what the temperament test said
> ...


By the time the temperament test rolled around most of the puppies were spoken for or weren't what I was looking for. I'll probably reconnect with Christine in the beginning of the year and try again


----------



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

Pytheis said:


> The temperament test said the puppy has same sex aggression? How old is this dog?


He was 7 weeks old and what I should have said was he was showing signs that he wouldn't do well in a home with other males


----------



## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Zuko.GSD said:


> He was 7 weeks old and what I should have said was he was showing signs that he wouldn't do well in a home with other males


I would discourage you from getting a male puppy if you have other males in the house including intact males unless you are prepared to do crate or kennel rotations for life. Have you ever owned a strong male working line GSD before? Around 95% of them would not do well with other males.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Zuko.GSD said:


> By the time the temperament test rolled around most of the puppies were spoken for or weren't what I was looking for. I'll probably reconnect with Christine in the beginning of the year and try again


What is it you are looking for? That might help.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Interesting. I didn't know you could tell that much at 7 weeks old.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Pytheis said:


> Interesting. I didn't know you could tell that much at 7 weeks old.


I started a post where I asked breeders how they evaluate puppies for the right homes. Lisa's response was very informative. I enjoyed reading her response.


https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/741721-evaluating-puppies-right-homes.html


----------



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Zuko.GSD said:
> 
> 
> > By the time the temperament test rolled around most of the puppies were spoken for or weren't what I was looking for. I'll probably reconnect with Christine in the beginning of the year and try again
> ...


 I was looking for a nosework/scent detection dog and a demo dog but I also need it to get along with males and this dog was showing signs that he would not.


----------



## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Zuko.GSD said:


> I have but I have an intact male



I was under the impression that you were going to neuter him. If so, that would take the issue of having a female in the house off the table (partly). You'd still have to deal with two horndogs that can't actually do anything but get stuck (no puppies). It's annoying, yes (I'm looking at you Kalbi) but it's manageable.


Alternatively, you could fulfill Christine's contract by dealing with one episode of crate and rotate during the female's heat cycle (since most of her females go into season at 8 months) and have her spayed at the 1 year mark as recommended by her contract - I know many who have done that. 


Heck, Katsu's littermate's owner has two intact males and one intact female (he waited until 2 to have her spayed). Of course his situation was slightly different. One dog was 10 years old (male), the female was the "middle child", then the 2nd male was just a pup. When she went into season, he would either have a family member take her or take the boys to daycare to keep them "occupied."




The dam of this litter is Blackthorn's Oda (her last litter as well). She has a reputation of having "sass" that is passed on to her pups. I applaud Christine for doing right by them.


----------



## JBjunior (Feb 8, 2018)

Courtney said:


> I started a post where I asked breeders how they evaluate puppies for the right homes. Lisa's response was very informative. I enjoyed reading her response.
> 
> 
> https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/741721-evaluating-puppies-right-homes.html


I think her post is very informative and she does learn a lot about her puppies, at that age, from her process. Unfortunately, just like in the case of this thread we may never know if the evaluation is correct based on environmental conditions, not placing the puppy in those situations, personality changes, etc. What a puppy is at X age is drastically different than what they will be at 6+ months and beyond. Heck, anyone that has a puppy should realize, just as I do with mine, that she will react to each of those environments different depending on the day and I can condition her to react to each of those environments as well. 

As I said, I do see value in those tests as a base line and they are better than nothing. It is far strengthened in her case based on the established breeding program and thoroughly understanding the breeding pairs. Too often with many breeders similar evaluations give a snap shot and do little, except influence how the puppy is treated/trained, to demonstrate what the dog will become. It would be similar to evaluate a toddler and hope to discern demonstrable behaviors as an adolescent/adult; we might get an idea but there are too many additional factors to have a final answer.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I still have the puppy. He is now 6.5 months. He is starting to show me what my gut told me then. Just a little FYI. 
I have found that the puppy testing along with observations from day one is pretty darn accurate a high percentage of the time. You do, though, have to know your lines to understand when a pup might be a sleeper or when something must be there early on or it will probably never show up.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

JBjunior, I just think that Christine @ Blackthorn knows her dogs very well and what they produce. Something gave her enough pause to have a second conversation with the OP. She was very generous with her time when we talked. I could have talked to her for hours! 

I found value in Lisa’s response to my question and thought it was worth sharing with someone in this thread. My current pups breeder also told me why she chose the puppy she did for me, we also had a lengthy conversation. I am extremely happy with my boy. Kiddos to these breeders!


----------



## JBjunior (Feb 8, 2018)

lhczth said:


> I still have the puppy. He is now 6.5 months. He is starting to show me what my gut told me then. Just a little FYI.
> I have found that the puppy testing along with observations from day one is pretty darn accurate a high percentage of the time. You do, though, have to know your lines to understand when a pup might be a sleeper or when something must be there early on or it will probably never show up.


Thanks for the reply. I should have been more clear, though I was talking about your post and your in-depth methods, I wasn't talking about your puppy. I was more talking about when someone evaluates a puppy and says definitively at 8 weeks old a puppy will be good at X or bad at X or demonstrates X or not, guiding them to place them in a home such as pet, or police, or sport. It often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Someone says it is a good pet dog and wouldn't be a good sport dog, it goes to a pet home and doesn't become a sport dog. All things being equal, if a puppy is demonstrating behaviors at 8 weeks old that may be a problem in certain households in the future if they hold, it is better to go with the information you have.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I completely trust my breeder to pick my puppy for me for my next dog. The breeder knows the litter the best. They know the lines of the sire and dam the best. They have watched the puppies grow up, and they have likely raised enough puppies to see common behaviors displayed as puppies that led to certain behaviors as adults. I was just surprised to find out that you could tell that young that a puppy is more likely to have same sex aggression.

To any breeders watching this thread, @lhczth, what behavior would you see in a 7 week old puppy that would make you think he/she would have same sex aggression when older?


----------



## JBjunior (Feb 8, 2018)

Courtney said:


> JBjunior, I just think that Christine @ Blackthorn knows her dogs very well and what they produce. Something gave her enough pause to have a second conversation with the OP. She was very generous with her time when we talked. I could have talked to her for hours!
> 
> I found value in Lisa’s response to my question and thought it was worth sharing with someone in this thread. My current pups breeder also told me why she chose the puppy she did for me, we also had a lengthy conversation. I am extremely happy with my boy. Kiddos to these breeders!


I think they both, and others like them, are doing the best they can with the information they have. I am just pointing out there are many other variables that impact the final disposition of a dog due to natural personality changes and environmental factors. Many of these changes happen between birth and 6 months. I am glad that they care enough to do everything they can to ensure the dog finds the best fitting home.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Ahem, any thoughts on Vom Davis German Shepherds!?


----------



## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Fodder said:


> Ahem, any thoughts on Vom Davis German Shepherds!?





I can't look at either site (Willow Kennels or Vom Davis since they appear to be the same owner) at work, so I'm commenting from my memory. If someone could link the PDB pages or their full registered names for the sire/dam that may be helpful too.


First thing I noticed was the female was imported and has just her ZVV1 title. It's good, yes, but I personally would like to see more on the dog. I have no way of telling if the breeder has actually worked with his/her stock and if they fully understand this bitch and her lines. I would be asking lots of questions. 


The male used in this breeding has no titles - same worries. 


If I remember correctly, both dogs only have preliminary OFAs done, though I think the dam has SV rated hips (I can't remember).


I'd want to know - Why were these two dogs chosen to breed? What does the breeder hope to produce with this litter? If the pup ends up not working out, what will the breeder do? Specifically for ZukoGSD's situation - how does the dam handle being around other dogs? What about the sire?


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Pytheis said:


> To any breeders watching this thread, @*lhczth*, what behavior would you see in a 7 week old puppy that would make you think he/she would have same sex aggression when older?



I haven't ever predicted this in 7 week old puppies, but I know my females so I am careful when I put my female puppies into a household with other females. I had a male in one litter that became dog reactive. He showed signs at 8 weeks around strange dogs, but I would never have seen the signs if I had not taken him traveling to a training weekend. What he showed was a very noticeable discomfort with dogs barking from their vehicles. The other pups I took with me could have cared less.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

JBjunior said:


> Thanks for the reply. I should have been more clear, though I was talking about your post and your in-depth methods, I wasn't talking about your puppy. I was more talking about when someone evaluates a puppy and says definitively at 8 weeks old a puppy will be good at X or bad at X or demonstrates X or not, guiding them to place them in a home such as pet, or police, or sport. It often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Someone says it is a good pet dog and wouldn't be a good sport dog, it goes to a pet home and doesn't become a sport dog. All things being equal, if a puppy is demonstrating behaviors at 8 weeks old that may be a problem in certain households in the future if they hold, it is better to go with the information you have.


YES you can .

I love this Lisa post 
quote "I still have the puppy. He is now 6.5 months. He is starting to show me what my gut told me then. Just a little FYI. 
I have found that the puppy testing along with observations from day one is pretty darn accurate a high percentage of the time. You do, though, have to know your lines to understand when a pup might be a sleeper or when something must be there early on or it will probably never show up."

When I bring in a youngster it wi from a programme where you have some successive generations of that breeder influencing the direction of the dogs .

That level of familiarity and a defined goal or target gives a huge information base - not much guess work or hoping .

I don't see any second generation of vom Davis at all.

import / breed / sell then move on . 

very catalog style web site . A tit merchandizey .

Details on the our dogs -- playing to the Czech cache . One of the females
is mostly current easily recognizable top west German sport lines - with a minor 
link to Czech breeding , Leaning on Pohranicni Straze , disbanded decades ago , and appearing in the pedigrees in 5th or 6th generation is sale oriented.

If you want a dog for nose work , professional or hobby? , then the "temrperament"
test should include an aptitude test .
A 7 to 8 week old pup with natural talent - for , scenting, tracking, hunt search can be tested for and discovered.
The same goes for natural talent for herding.
The same goes for that fire in the belly , can't be distracted , dedication to task.

do you think Christine felt that already having two males would make it difficult for any other male pup to be suitable?

two can have some harmony - but a third is a totally different dynamic - triangles


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Zuko.GSD - perhaps ask Christine if she has a breeder recommendation for you. I know you would have already spent a considerable amount of time chatting with her, she knows what you’re looking for and might be able to point you in the right direction. Just a thought. Good luck!


----------



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

Katsugsd said:


> Fodder said:
> 
> 
> > Ahem, any thoughts on Vom Davis German Shepherds!?
> ...


 I asked the breeder what the Sire was used for and he is a dual purpose police dog


----------



## JBjunior (Feb 8, 2018)

Zuko.GSD said:


> I asked the breeder what the Sire was used for and he is a dual purpose police dog


Where? Do they own him? Why is there no information on their website? The only snippet of information I found on Google, that is a dead link to their website, says he is in training for detection work.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Zuko.GSD said:


> I asked the breeder what the Sire was used for and he is a dual purpose police dog



Which means very little. He could be an exceptional dog or he could be junk. The quality of dogs working PD varies tremendously.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

JBjunior said:


> Where? Do they own him? Why is there no information on their website? The only snippet of information I found on Google, that is a dead link to their website, says he is in training for detection work.


I sure would like some information on that sire.

Sceptical . very sceptical.

In casual conversations as soon as people know you have anything to do with GSD they offer
stories of the GSD that they had years ago , 100 pounds , police dog sire -- lol - long
before we had certified police k9 units !!!!

OP -- there were "thoughts" given about this breeder 

the whole web site is vague --


----------



## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Out of curiosity, I tried to do a little digging last night and couldn't find much.


Their Facebook page has 14 likes and consists of about 5 of the same photos from both websites. No previous litters mentioned or buyers showing off their pups. I'd stay away from this breeder. far away.


----------



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

JBjunior said:


> Zuko.GSD said:
> 
> 
> > I asked the breeder what the Sire was used for and he is a dual purpose police dog
> ...


Tr hey said he lives with the handler in Virginia


----------



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

Katsugsd said:


> Out of curiosity, I tried to do a little digging last night and couldn't find much.
> 
> 
> Their Facebook page has 14 likes and consists of about 5 of the same photos from both websites. No previous litters mentioned or buyers showing off their pups. I'd stay away from this breeder. far away.


It looks like they last posted on Facebook in 2016 and also I'm curious who around our area got one of their dogs because the breeder was talking about how he just shipped a puppy to Dulles


----------



## JBjunior (Feb 8, 2018)

Zuko.GSD said:


> It looks like they last posted on Facebook in 2016 and also I'm curious who around our area got one of their dogs because the breeder was talking about how he just shipped a puppy to Dulles


The kennel is really close to the area I just moved from. When I was looking for a puppy last year, they never came on my radar. Personally, I am intrigued by why they don't "push" more information about the sire, which should be a massive selling point. There are too many well established breeding programs in this country with accomplished dogs producing fantastic puppies to spend too much time with this breeder. If you think you are getting adequate information, because from my perspective it looks like you are getting tiny pieces of information with every question you ask instead of them being open about it, then do what you think is best.


----------



## Zuko.GSD (Aug 5, 2018)

JBjunior said:


> Zuko.GSD said:
> 
> 
> > It looks like they last posted on Facebook in 2016 and also I'm curious who around our area got one of their dogs because the breeder was talking about how he just shipped a puppy to Dulles
> ...


I don't think they are being as open as they should be. I want more info but I'm pretty sure they're not worth my time.


----------

