# Another Black/Tan or Bicolor thread



## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Hey guys, I got a few opinions already. Just wanted to see what others say. Here are some pics of my soon to be pup (in my profile's album):
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/48599-bboylayz-albums1314-adobe-6-weeks-old.html

Here is one in case you don't want to look at them all in my album:









What kind of color do you think I should expect from him as he grows and changes? The breeder says he will probably look something like this:









I'm almost positive he is a bicolor but the breeder says he will be much lighter, like a really dark blanket back. His sire is a solid black and his mother is a bicolor (maybe not true bicolor but close). Here is a pic of the dam just under 2 years old:







Also is she even a "true" bicolor? Is the stripes on the toes a good indicator of this?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I would call your pups dam a black and tan with blanket - very large blanket - gorgeous. 

I can't tell with the pup yet.. with the toe penciling bleeding through a bit in the photo.. there may be a chance of it being a bi-colour, but I don't know.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

The top picture you posted doesn't show the puppies chest well, so it's a bit misleading (I'm not saying you did this on purpose) because the pup does have a lot of tan on the neck area like the middle pic. I would consider those blanket black/tans....I'm not sure about the mom to be honest.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Rerun said:


> The top picture you posted doesn't show the puppies chest well, so it's a bit misleading (I'm not saying you did this on purpose) because the pup does have a lot of tan on the neck area like the middle pic. I would consider those blanket black/tans....I'm not sure about the mom to be honest.


Whoops! Here is the best shot of the chest I have (I took a video of my fiancee with him and just took screenshots when he was still enough haha). I wish I had him so I can take more informative pics and post them.








Not the best but that's all I've got for now


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I would call your pups dam a black and tan with blanket - very large blanket


Why? Just askin'......

Hard to tell for sure from the pictures.....a side-shot might help. Does the mom have black hocks? 

Does she have light hair as a stripe down her chest all the way to her belly? if so, then she's a blanket. 

When Ianna was a puppy, she had a light stripe on her throat just like the pic of the youngster sitting. But she got darker as she got older, a lot of the light hairs were replaced by black.

Here's Mike....he's a blanket:









Here's Ianna, she's a bi-color:


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I've never seen toemarks that distinct on a blanket back at 2 years--does mom have toemarks and tarheel now?

In theory, your boy would have to be either black or bicolor, if his dad is black and his mom is bicolor. And he's obviously not black....


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

DunRingill said:


> Why? Just askin'......
> 
> Hard to tell for sure from the pictures.....a side-shot might help. Does the mom have black hocks?
> 
> ...



I see a lot of tan on the back legs and bleed through tan on the chest and face.. to me, she looks like a blanket back.. but I could be wrong.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I've never seen toemarks that distinct on a blanket back at 2 years--does mom have toemarks and tarheel now?
> 
> In theory, your boy would have to be either black or bicolor, if his dad is black and his mom is bicolor. And he's obviously not black....



Here are two pics where you can see her toes. Sorry bout the lack of good side shots! She was digging like crazy in the second picture haha


















You can definitely see toe markings on the back paws. Not sure if thats a dead giveaway or not...


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Mom looks like a bi color to me based on those pics, though I'd prefer not to see the brown on the chest...


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

In those photo's I agree, she looks like a bi-colour.

Like Rerun says, the colour on the chest is throwing me off though.

She is a very pretty girl though!


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

So it is safe to say that he's a bicolor! Nice!

What are the chances that he will have pretty light cheeks and eyebrows? Will the tan markings be no bigger/lighter than the moms? The breeder _did_ say that he will have the lightest in the litter, but curious as to what you guys think of _how_ light. I'm no genetics wiz and no nothing about modifiers for mask colors and what not.

Here's a not so great shot of the dam because the snow washed out the image:










As you can see there is quite a bit of rich color but it's just a small dot on the eyebrows. There is quite a bit on the neck though.

Don't get me wrong, I'll love him no matter how he turns out! And the dam and her brother (Rollie von Ryanhaus) who I met in my search for a breeder are both gorgeous. I didn't think I liked bi-colors but they really really grew on me. Rollie has NO markings on his face what-so-ever and he was my favorite dog in the world. Temperament was perfect. I do, however, like a bit of color on the face as I think it just adds just a tad more to their facial expressions.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Were there any black dogs in the litter? I wonder if the mom is bicolor/bicolor (that is, she doesn't have the black recessive, making her a "brighter" bicolor--with the eyebrows and "necklace").

Some people assert that the inheritance of bicolor should be just like a black and tan with a black recessive with a masking modifier, but my experience so far hasn't supported that.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Were there any black dogs in the litter? I wonder if the mom is bicolor/bicolor (that is, she doesn't have the black recessive, making her a "brighter" bicolor--with the eyebrows and "necklace").
> 
> Some people assert that the inheritance of bicolor should be just like a black and tan with a black recessive with a masking modifier, but my experience so far hasn't supported that.


Actually half of the litter was black, so she's a black/bicolor. Neither of the parents pedigree have bicolors from what I see in the pedigree database. 

"Some people assert that the inheritance of bicolor should be just like a black and tan with a black recessive with a masking modifier, but my experience so far hasn't supported that." 
- could you explain/reword this? Sorry just had trouble figuring out what you were saying. It's late here in Boston haha


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Pedigrees of the parents:
Birken Wald Sottana Vom Ryanhaus - German shepherd dog
Joseph vom Konigsdorf - German shepherd dog


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

bboylayz said:


> "Some people assert that the inheritance of bicolor should be just like a black and tan with a black recessive with a masking modifier, but my experience so far hasn't supported that."
> - could you explain/reword this? Sorry just had trouble figuring out what you were saying. It's late here in Boston haha


Umm. I can... but I don't know that it will get any clearer.

Sable, saddle (or black and tan), and black are all on the same locus, called the "agouti" locus. Sable is dominant to saddle which is dominant to the recessive black that is found in GSDs.

The genes for mask or no mask, white, dominant black, liver (where all black hairs are red/brown), and dilute/blue (where all black hairs are gray/blue) are all found on different loci.

At question is whether bicolor is simply saddle + some modifier (found on a different locus) or whether it's actually in the "chain" of colors on the agouti locus. That is, in my experience, it seems to be that the heirarchy of patterns on the agouti locus are sable, saddle, bicolor, black. But some people have told me that the current research is indicating that bicolor is not its own (genetic) pattern. 

It's obviously a distinct, definable pattern that is different from a blanket-back saddle dog--but the question is whether genetically the saddle is an allele that is different from one for bicolor.

So a saddle back black and tan is genetically saddle/saddle (no black recessive); a blanket-back is saddle/black. Is a bicolor dog bicolor/bicolor or bicolor/black? Or is it saddle/black + bicolor modifier (on a different loci).

I have a black and tan female that never produced a black puppy ever (every male she was bred to had the black recessive)--instead she produced blanket backs, bicolors, and sables (when bred to a sable with the black recessive. When bred to a bicolor with a black recessive, she produced dogs her own color (apparently blanket-back), "bright" bicolors, and bicolors with the black recessive. 

Hunter and Coal are two of her kids--both bicolors--one "bright" and one with the black recessive. They are half-siblings:










Another image of Hunter--you can see tarheels and toemarks and the dark undercarriage here:


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Umm. I can... but I don't know that it will get any clearer.
> 
> Sable, saddle (or black and tan), and black are all on the same locus, called the "agouti" locus. Sable is dominant to saddle which is dominant to the recessive black that is found in GSDs.
> 
> ...


Actually that made a ton of sense. I've been reading up on genetics and such in the last couple months and people were using those terms amongst each other leaving the newbies to figure it out themselves. But your explanation made everything I've been reading suddenly click. Thanks! I do recall reading on most discussions of the topic that the hierarchy does distinctly include bicolor between saddle and black. How recent is the new theory that bicolor is not on the list but rather it is a saddle + black modifier? This would be the first I've heard of that actually. But again, I've barely scratched the surface of genetics to have looked that deep into the topic.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

bboylayz said:


> I do recall reading on most discussions of the topic that the hierarchy does distinctly include bicolor between saddle and black. How recent is the new theory that bicolor is not on the list but rather it is a saddle + black modifier? This would be the first I've heard of that actually. But again, I've barely scratched the surface of genetics to have looked that deep into the topic.


I've not seen the research--just been told of it--apparently it's not been published yet. I am not sure whether I believe it or not. The bicolor as its own genetic pattern on the agouti allele has been pretty well borne out by my experiences.

For example, I had a richly pigmented sable female, Danca--she produced sables and bicolors but never blacks when bred to my bicolor dog who has the black recessive. She had very small toemarks. If she had a saddle gene with a bicolor modifier -- wouldn't I have had some black and tans or saddle backs as well as bicolors (and sables)?


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I've not seen the research--just been told of it--apparently it's not been published yet. I am not sure whether I believe it or not. The bicolor as its own genetic pattern on the agouti allele has been pretty well borne out by my experiences.
> 
> For example, I had a richly pigmented sable female, Danca--she produced sables and bicolors but never blacks when bred to my bicolor dog who has the black recessive. She had very small toemarks. If she had a saddle gene with a bicolor modifier -- wouldn't I have had some black and tans or saddle backs as well as bicolors (and sables)?


Right the new theory doesn't seem to add up does it? I'm not sure if I believe it either. Seems safe to say the old theory is more likely unless this new research is published and is groundbreaking/undeniable


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## SouthernNdN (Nov 17, 2010)

I have basically given up on some of these dogs on figuring out what is and is not bi or B&T. When looking at the Standards as to what is what. It almost seems confusing to tell the difference between a pale bi color and a Melanistic Black & Tan.


It seems the only thing that some would tell one from the other would be the penciling on the feet as well as the black points on the legs. However to another any hint of tan around the ears or to much on the upper legs/chest one would consider a B&T.


I've heard from a few that would consider my bitch to be a bi color however others consider to be a dark or Melanistic B&T. However with her only being 7 months old, I would say a this point it would be hard to give a concrete answer as to what she is, due to just now growing in her adult coat, and not having gone through a second blow of the coat.


At this point from what I can see by looking at her and from reading up on the standard as to what is or is not a Bi Color or B&T, I would consider or assume she is a Faded Bi Color due to her markings and her grey undercoat, but that is subject to change with another blow out of the coat, into her adult coat.


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## SmartDogK9 (Feb 15, 2018)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Umm. I can... but I don't know that it will get any clearer.
> 
> Sable, saddle (or black and tan), and black are all on the same locus, called the "agouti" locus. Sable is dominant to saddle which is dominant to the recessive black that is found in GSDs.
> 
> ...


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## SmartDogK9 (Feb 15, 2018)

SouthernNdN said:


> I have basically given up on some of these dogs on figuring out what is and is not bi or B&T. When looking at the Standards as to what is what. It almost seems confusing to tell the difference between a pale bi color and a Melanistic Black & Tan.
> 
> 
> It seems the only thing that some would tell one from the other would be the penciling on the feet as well as the black points on the legs. However to another any hint of tan around the ears or to much on the upper legs/chest one would consider a B&T.
> ...


Hi SouthernNdN,

Although Bicolor and B&T have basically the same two colors, Bicolors MUST have black "tarheel" on the back of legs, and B&Ts do not. Bicolors are also commonly called "tarheels." Some Bicolors are all black EXCEPT for tan vent. B&T GSDs have tan heels.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

SmartDogK9 said:


> SouthernNdN said:
> 
> 
> > I have basically given up on some of these dogs on figuring out what is and is not bi or B&T. When looking at the Standards as to what is what. It almost seems confusing to tell the difference between a pale bi color and a Melanistic Black & Tan.
> ...


just because I’m curious in your opinion

This puppy bi color or Black and Tan? I know what she is now, as she is almost 2.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The tar heals will disappear as the puppy matures. She has no toe penciling and I see color starting on her ears.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

lhczth said:


> The tar heals will disappear as the puppy matures. She has no toe penciling and I see color starting on her ears.


It’s funny how many said bi color but I knew she wasn’t. Kind of odd but she has Tar Heels still. Tan hair is over it but underneath she has black Hair

Her litter mate had penciling and was nearly all black and turned out to be a blanket back


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## Stephanieb3 (Feb 28, 2018)

Hey everyone,

I was curious to see if my puppy was a bi color or black and tan , I didn't want to start a new post since I saw this post was relatively new and is what I was asking as well . Our puppy is named Ava and we got her two weeks ago. I've done some research on bi colors, but I am not too familiar with gsd patterns and colors since she is my first. Thank you !


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

She is a beautiful bicolor.

Bicolor particulars are her pencil toes, tar heels, and solid black tummy area.


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## Stephanieb3 (Feb 28, 2018)

Thank you! I appreciate your response!


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