# Sudden Aggression-Please Help!!!



## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Hi everyone!! :help: I have a male full blooded German breed Shepherd who is almost 2, will be on June 1st, and he has been my baby and my best friend since he was a month old. His name is Shepherd btw. He has started to show aggression towards me in particular but also to my mom who lives right next door to me. He has been an inside dog all his life until about 3 months ago when we moved back home closer to my family. He is strictly an outside dog now, has tons of land to run around on and so I thought he would be happier. My parents have 2 female dogs who also are free-roaming, one of which he gets a long with well and the other not so much. He is not neutered yet because we had intentions of breading him and my parents white Shepherd, the one he gets along with well. So far he has attacked me; not bit me just came at me barking and jumping and not responding to commands. He also was slightly injured yesterday and when my mom tried to see if he was alright he growled at her and she was pretty shaken up. Later that night he also growled and barked at me. Every time something has happened the one female dog of my parents, the other Shepherd, has been around him so we were wondering if it has something to do with her. His vet doesn't even really know what to say other than bring him in and do blood work. Could he be sick or is he just trying to be dominate now? I am needing some answers!! I am super confused and actually scared of him now which makes it worse because he picks up on that and just tries to be even more of an alpha dog. I don't know whether I should chain him up, set up a invisible shock fence with the flags, pin him up, get a shock collar or what. I still want him as a pet but things have to change and I just need to know what would be the best possible actions to take. Any input is much appreciated!! Thank you!!


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

Not to be a turd, but there's a forum dedicated solely to aggression issues.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Ha sorry! I just registered for this site and it took me awhile just to figure out how to post what I did...can you send me in the right direction then?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

MKirby said:


> Ha sorry! I just registered for this site and it took me awhile just to figure out how to post what I did...can you send me in the right direction then?


I've already notified the mods to move your thread. Please don't repost it.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Oh ok, thank you!! And sorry again!!


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

I think you're OK, MKirby.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

MKirby do you think that the change in him being an outdoor dog might have something to do with this? Also what were you doing at the time when growled at you. He might be taking on some of the bad characteristics of the other free-roaming dogs in this situation. Also you will need to project an air of power or he will feed off of your fear. I don't think you should allow him to run with your moms dogs especially if one is an unaltered female this could be a recipe for disaster including the 3rd dog ending up dead.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Get him fixed unless you are going to keep him inside or otherwise contained when unsupervised with NO exceptions. This is minimal owner responsibility and one or the other needs to be done immediately.

The biggest problem here is that there are too many question marks. How to help when you can only speculate on what your dog does all day?


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Please neuter your dog. He is becoming sexually mature, and the bitch next door may be coming into season. Maybe not. Dogs showing aggression to the people they know, whether indoor dogs or outdoor dogs, is NOT indicative of good temperament, even if there is a bitch in heat, and they should not be bred. Remove the hormones, and the dog will likely come back to his senses. 

Good luck.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> MKirby do you think that the change in him being an outdoor dog might have something to do with this? Also what were you doing at the time when growled at you. He might be taking on some of the bad characteristics of the other free-roaming dogs in this situation. Also you will need to project an air of power or he will feed off of your fear. I don't think you should allow him to run with your moms dogs especially if one is an unaltered female this could be a recipe for disaster including the 3rd dog ending up dead.



Yes, I had thought that may also be a factor. I had been told by a behavioral trainer that Shepherd could now believe that since he is not allowed inside that I have removed him from my pack, so to speak. And now outside is his territory and he is alpha dog outside. The 1st time when he attacked me I was scolding, taped his neck and tried to grab his collar to make him sit (all a normal practice that he is use to when being scolded) because he was being too rough with the female Shepherd. The 2nd time I, on accident, hit his jaw with my foot where he had been hurt that day and he whimpered then a few mins later started growling. So you would recommend chaining or fencing him so he cannot roam with the other dogs?


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Kris10 said:


> Get him fixed unless you are going to keep him inside or otherwise contained when unsupervised with NO exceptions. This is minimal owner responsibility and one or the other needs to be done immediately.
> 
> The biggest problem here is that there are too many question marks. How to help when you can only speculate on what your dog does all day?



Okay, thank you. I looked into getting artificial insemination today and am now considering going that route and getting him fixed asap. That was we can still breed him later if we choose to. Unfortunately, I cannot help the fact that I even have question though. I have a day job and there is no one to watch him other than my mom. And if I could house him inside I would but I cannot anymore.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> Please neuter your dog. He is becoming sexually mature, and the bitch next door may be coming into season. Maybe not. Dogs showing aggression to the people they know, whether indoor dogs or outdoor dogs, is NOT indicative of good temperament, even if there is a bitch in heat, and they should not be bred. Remove the hormones, and the dog will likely come back to his senses.
> 
> Good luck.



And I do have intentions of having him neutered, I guess I was just waiting to breed him, but now I realize that was probably a bad decision. Thank you very much!!


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## wessongsd (Apr 6, 2011)

i would agree with the suggestion to have him neutered as it will take him down a notch. however he has been to the stage in life of sexual maturity and clipping something doesnt make them forget the fact either. i think you have to look at all the current factors, change in scenery introduction of new dogs. now he is able to move in a pack mentality and he hasnt possible been positioned enough to understand even in a pack you are still the alpha. there are scads of reasons that could set it off. dont go clipping him and assume that will fix it. the best advise is seek a gsd trainer (i prefer schutzhund trainers because they take the dogs to an agressive state when the teach protection but its controlled agression) check there credentials thoroughly watch how they handle other dogs you dont want someone who whips them around or shock collar or anything that can actually make it worse if not handled by a professional correctly. pm if you want anymore help


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I do think his change in living arrangements has something to do with this situation. When he was an inside dog you controlled many resources and got to decide when he could out and how long he stayed out. Now he is on his own and making his own decisions. His most important social network isn't you these days...his world revolves around the other dogs that now make up his most important social unit. LOL, how rude of you to try and decide when he was being too rough with the female! That wouldn't be up to you!

If you want a nice companion bring him back into the house and start on working with re-establishing yourself as the most important social connection he has. Work with a trainer/behaviorist and set the limits consistently.

I would also urge you to neuter him. I don't think doing so will be the easy answer to the problem, but it will make it easier to keep his mind off the girlies living next door and it does kind of sound like your set up isn't going to be the best for managing an intact dog. Why complicate the situation and make it harder than it has to be?
Sheilah


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It sounds like since he runs around all day with two other dogs he has his own pack and really does not need you. Why not pen the dogs and then spend time with him alone if he cannot be an inside dog?

It will cost you a lot of money to freeze his semen and using frozen dog semen is not that successful. This really does not sound like a dog you should breed.

Also, has his thyroid been checked?


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

wessongsd said:


> i would agree with the suggestion to have him neutered as it will take him down a notch. however he has been to the stage in life of sexual maturity and clipping something doesnt make them forget the fact either. i think you have to look at all the current factors, change in scenery introduction of new dogs. now he is able to move in a pack mentality and he hasnt possible been positioned enough to understand even in a pack you are still the alpha. there are scads of reasons that could set it off. dont go clipping him and assume that will fix it. the best advise is seek a gsd trainer (i prefer schutzhund trainers because they take the dogs to an agressive state when the teach protection but its controlled agression) check there credentials thoroughly watch how they handle other dogs you dont want someone who whips them around or shock collar or anything that can actually make it worse if not handled by a professional correctly. pm if you want anymore help



Ok thank you!! I looked up online the closest schutzhund training facilities and as far as I noticed in Alabama they are in Springville, Fayette and Alabaster. Does anyone know of someone who does this training who is located closer to Huntsville or Cullman?


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

sit said:


> I do think his change in living arrangements has something to do with this situation. When he was an inside dog you controlled many resources and got to decide when he could out and how long he stayed out. Now he is on his own and making his own decisions. His most important social network isn't you these days...his world revolves around the other dogs that now make up his most important social unit. LOL, how rude of you to try and decide when he was being too rough with the female! That wouldn't be up to you!
> 
> If you want a nice companion bring him back into the house and start on working with re-establishing yourself as the most important social connection he has. Work with a trainer/behaviorist and set the limits consistently.
> 
> ...



You are joking about the controlling his aggression towards a female right?? I feel that is one of problems right now. Okay, maybe I can talk my landlord into letting me have him inside for a short period of time but it cannot be long term. Thank you!!


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

MKirby said:


> So you would recommend chaining or fencing him so he cannot roam with the other dogs?


PLEASE DO NOT CHAIN YOUR DOG. He will definately become more agressive.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> It sounds like since he runs around all day with two other dogs he has his own pack and really does not need you. Why not pen the dogs and then spend time with him alone if he cannot be an inside dog?
> 
> It will cost you a lot of money to freeze his semen and using frozen dog semen is not that successful. This really does not sound like a dog you should breed.
> 
> Also, has his thyroid been checked?


My parents do not agree with pinning dogs up so their dogs would still be able to free roam but I am completely open to pinning Shepherd up to solve the problem. Yea, you are probably right about the pricing and it may not be a good decision since he is aggressive, his whole line may be aggressive. No, his thyroid has not been checked. Thank you!!


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

kiya said:


> PLEASE DO NOT CHAIN YOUR DOG. He will definately become more agressive.


Thank you!! Thank is what I had assumed also. How do you feel about fencing a relatively large area though?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

MKirby, you could put your dog out in a fenced area of your yard to live, but unless you deal with his behavioral issues, they are not going to go away.

I cannot say enough good things about hiring a private trainer. I have had to do this for one of my dogs and it has been worth every penny so far. Good luck with your dog.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> MKirby, you could put your dog out in a fenced area of your yard to live, but unless you deal with his behavioral issues, they are not going to go away.
> 
> I cannot say enough good things about hiring a private trainer. I have had to do this for one of my dogs and it has been worth every penny so far. Good luck with your dog.



Thank you!! I believe my plan thus far will be: get neutered, fence in, then get a trainer. Your dogs are very pretty!!


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I believe a pen for him that he can not get out of is in order. It definitely sound like you are no longer his pack leader and that is why is starting to growl. I would encourage you to re-establish leadership and try to keep him in a little more. Also before you breed him I would have him evaluated by someone who is qualified to see if he should be bred. However do not let him get the girl pregnant now for this could be a disaster in the making.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> I believe a pen for him that he can not get out of is in order. It definitely sound like you are no longer his pack leader and that is why is starting to growl. I would encourage you to re-establish leadership and try to keep him in a little more. Also before you breed him I would have him evaluated by someone who is qualified to see if he should be bred. However do not let him get the girl pregnant now for this could be a disaster in the making.


Thank you!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I moved the thread to the agression forum. I agree with sit-stay and the others: You have to stop the free roaming and be the center of his life and have total control of his resources and freedoms, including his comings and goings. 

It does sound like he has lost what he felt was your leadership due to the change in his situation, and has decided that if you are not there to be the pack leader, then he will be. 

In your situation, I think creating a dog-run or a pen for him and seeing if the landlord will allow you to keep your dog inside at least part of the time will work. How about keeping him inside crated during the day when you are at work, and/or bringing him in and keeping him crated in the house for the night? And kept in a pen when you can't have him in. Spending a LOT of your free time with him, doing obedience and one-on-one focused work and play. Basically, life is boring without you. Everthing of value (food, toys, attention, play, toys) is controlled by you. 

I agree with getting some help from a behaviourist/trainer to get you started. You will have to step in and make solid, drastic changes NOW if you don't want this situation to get out of hand.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Look at Tractor Supply for a decent kennel if you still want to keep him outside while your gone. It's not huge but can be expanded and will keep him safe.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> I moved the thread to the agression forum. I agree with sit-stay and the others: You have to stop the free roaming and be the center of his life and have total control of his resources and freedoms, including his comings and goings.
> 
> It does sound like he has lost what he felt was your leadership due to the change in his situation, and has decided that if you are not there to be the pack leader, then he will be.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that; I didn't mean to post in the wrong area. 
Okay, that seems to be the best thing to fence him up and I have never had any experience with crating so I will have to research more on that. And I think you are right on the spending time with him topic. I figured that he would be fine being alone during the day roaming around and when I get home we play, walk and he even comes inside for a short period of time; but that seems to not be the case now. 
Can anyone recommend to me trainers in Alabama? I have researched some but many are an hour or farther away from my location.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Look at Tractor Supply for a decent kennel if you still want to keep him outside while your gone. It's not huge but can be expanded and will keep him safe.


Okay, thank you!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

MKirby , with respect, I am finding little that has been good for the dog . You said you had him since he was one month??? Someone gave/sold you a dog at 4 weeks of age. He is missing major social experience.
He has been your baby and best friend. You know what I told my kids ? You will grow and you will leave and I will to the best of my ability help you be someone who is competent and I will always be there for support and with interest , no matter how old we are -- and I will be your parent, you will have one mum , one dad , and lots of friends who you will find will come and go . 
Your dog needs that steady anchor , the quiet authority who sets limits and has expectations and is to be answered to, the one that will care and nuture and look out for him . His best friends if he had his druthers would be another dog --- so you are coming to find out.
Some structure and training would have been in order .
He has been aggressive to you and to your neighbour, your mother , apparently without cause . 
He has been aggressive to you to the point where you have lost your confidence, so you know more at the gut level than letting on. 
He has frightened your mum.
And it looks like he has been in some fight , and sustained injuries which are making him touchy. 
The dog running the backwoods with two females also running wild is a pack . Worst idea ever -- no wait there is one worse one and that is your idea to breed the dog.

Why . 

All you have is male and female biological units , no testing, temperament a real puzzle, a male you are afraid of, no hip x rays past or present to know of.

Please neuter the dog as a method of pup-birth control.
Please enroll in some obedience problems. 
See if the mounting aggression levels are based on a poorly socialized , wild running dog (management/environment) or whether the dog has a medical problem.
Give him structure . Give him a safe enclosure to hang out in , build a 12 x 12 fenced in area. Take him out on lead and have him heed you . Put yourself in charge. Nothing In Life Is For Free is a good rule of thumb.
Tell your parents to control their dogs -- it would be better for them also.

Please do not breed . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

What Carmen said.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

MKirby said:


> The 1st time when he attacked me I was scolding, taped his neck and tried to grab his collar to make him sit (all a normal practice that he is use to when being scolded) because he was being too rough with the female Shepherd.


No, I really wasn't joking. You said that he was aggressive when you corrected him for being too rough with the female shepherd. As far as he is concerned, it isn't your job any longer to decide those things. And he told you so, too.

I agree with the others who have recommended a vet check. If he is spending a lot of time running around unsupervised, he could have gotten hurt and at least some of his snarkiness might be pain based. Maybe his neck hurts and when you grabbed his collar to correct his behavior with the female it caused physical discomfort?
Sheilah


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

carmspack said:


> MKirby , with respect, I am finding little that has been good for the dog . You said you had him since he was one month??? Someone gave/sold you a dog at 4 weeks of age. He is missing major social experience.
> He has been your baby and best friend. You know what I told my kids ? You will grow and you will leave and I will to the best of my ability help you be someone who is competent and I will always be there for support and with interest , no matter how old we are -- and I will be your parent, you will have one mum , one dad , and lots of friends who you will find will come and go .
> Your dog needs that steady anchor , the quiet authority who sets limits and has expectations and is to be answered to, the one that will care and nuture and look out for him . His best friends if he had his druthers would be another dog --- so you are coming to find out.
> Some structure and training would have been in order .
> ...



I do thank you for your input and respect your opinions; however, I do not agree with everything you are saying and wish to give you more info on certain things...
Sorry for the typo about how long I have had him, it has actually been since he was about 2 months old. 
He is not missing social experience because I made sure that when he was a puppy to give him every experience necessary to his well being. He was leash trained, taken for walks everyday, taken to the parks around other people and dogs, had company over including roommates, trained on commands, taught to sit/stay/hold for his food/hold for commands, etc.
I never stated that it was exactly correct for me to be so close with him and him be my bff, I simple stated that so everyone would know that I am not at a point where I believe he needs to be put down; which is what I was told by many people is what I needed to do. 
I am scared of him now because he has NEVER and I mean NEVER shown any aggression towards me and now all of a sudden he is. I am just trying to figure out why and how to fix it. 
He was not in a fight; while mowing, rocks were thrown in his direction and cut his lip and nose a little. 
And sorry but where I grew up yes the human is the alpha dog and they run the show but I do not necessarily believe that letting a dog run free and not be chained or fenced in is a bad decision. Maybe in some cases such as this one yes, but usually there are other factors, just like in my case. 
And the breeding issue, no I probably will not breed him now because of his aggression levels, I don't know why he is being aggressive, and because I have to fix this asap (i.e. getting him fixed as the 1st step) BUT I don't believe that you have to have all these expensive testings done on dogs just to see if they are what people say to be "genetically well for breeding." 
My parents are not going to change much with their dogs so currently it is just up to me to fix everything and try to make things better. Which again, is why I have tried to reach out and figure out what to do.
Again, thank you for your input!!


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

sit said:


> No, I really wasn't joking. You said that he was aggressive when you corrected him for being too rough with the female shepherd. As far as he is concerned, it isn't your job any longer to decide those things. And he told you so, too.
> 
> I agree with the others who have recommended a vet check. If he is spending a lot of time running around unsupervised, he could have gotten hurt and at least some of his snarkiness might be pain based. Maybe his neck hurts and when you grabbed his collar to correct his behavior with the female it caused physical discomfort?
> Sheilah


Oh okay I understand what you are saying now; in his mind it was wrong. 
Yes, that is something I had considered so I am scheduling a vet visit.


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## Bismarck's_Dad (Apr 2, 2011)

i'd probably work on the basic obedience first, get some warm bologna or bacon pieces (whatever he LOVES).
make it very fun for him.

if he, as you say, has had all these commands down, then it should be a snap for you. make yourself fun first, gain his trust back.

don't be stingy with the treats the first time he obeys.
make it a HUGE party for him, big praise, and lots of treats.
gradually make him work for it.

like others have said, he basically doesn't need you anymore. you don't provide anything for him.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

it sounds like your dog is in dire need of an alpha male (be it you, or someone else) to line him out. He is asking for direction and is'nt getting it. take control of this dog and the rest will fall into place.


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## Bismarck's_Dad (Apr 2, 2011)

RazinKain said:


> it sounds like your dog is in dire need of an alpha male (be it you, or someone else) to line him out. He is asking for direction and is'nt getting it. take control of this dog and the rest will fall into place.


while i agree with that, i also disagree.

his dog has already warned him that he is no longer in charge.
i have no doubt that he would bite, should he try to use harsher methods of training.

i've worked with aggressive, scared, shy, normal, you name it, dogs.
a harsher method "could" be used, but you really risk being bitten, because the dog doesn't need him anymore. he provides nothing for the dog, so the dog doing whats normal, found itself a pack.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

MKirby when I said the dog missed valuable social experience it was with the understanding that he was taken from his dam and litter mates at 4 weeks of age. You correct that and say it was actually 8 weeks. 

Training goes beyond the sit and stay in the house. 
How was he when you took him for a walk. Where was he? How did he mind you . 

Do you know who your dog is. 

What was the hip history of his sire and dam , going back generations.

You said " BUT I don't believe that you have to have all these expensive testings done on dogs just to see if they are what people say to be "genetically well for breeding".

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Bismarck's_Dad said:


> i'd probably work on the basic obedience first, get some warm bologna or bacon pieces (whatever he LOVES).
> make it very fun for him.
> 
> if he, as you say, has had all these commands down, then it should be a snap for you. make yourself fun first, gain his trust back.
> ...


I worked with him awhile last night and when I tired to introduce his favorite treats he got too excited and started to disobey. I ignored him and would make him do the command again and again until he successfully listened and followed through. But I believe with continual training and work we can get back to a better place of trust and respect. Thank you!!


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

RazinKain said:


> it sounds like your dog is in dire need of an alpha male (be it you, or someone else) to line him out. He is asking for direction and is'nt getting it. take control of this dog and the rest will fall into place.





Bismarck's_Dad said:


> while i agree with that, i also disagree.
> 
> his dog has already warned him that he is no longer in charge.
> i have no doubt that he would bite, should he try to use harsher methods of training.
> ...


Thank you both!! Btw, I am female lol. I should have included that I guess. Idk if that could have something to do with it also??
And that is definitely how I feel that Shepherd feels now that he no longer needs me because I have not provided structure for him lately and he has had to take control.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

carmspack said:


> MKirby when I said the dog missed valuable social experience it was with the understanding that he was taken from his dam and litter mates at 4 weeks of age. You correct that and say it was actually 8 weeks.
> 
> Training goes beyond the sit and stay in the house.
> How was he when you took him for a walk. Where was he? How did he mind you .
> ...


Oh okay, got ya. When we went for walks it was at local parks around lots of activity (people playing football and other games, leashed and loose dogs, children, etc. He would usually only focus on what I was telling him to do, never tried to run off after a frisbee or football someone was throwing or anything and really didn't ever pay any attention to other dogs. Sometimes people, including children, would want to pet him so I would make him sit or lay and he always had very good temperament and I felt under control.
I'm not for sure about the hip history. He is registered through CKC and I have all his paperwork and his lines paperwork at home. I'm not exactly for sure why it is an issue about the hips? Is it because some lines have more history of Hip Dysplasia?


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

I worked with Shepherd last night and this morning before work some. 
Yesterday after work I bought a muzzle and got home, muzzled him, leashed him and we walked for about an hour. He was very unruly at first; didn't like the muzzle and was trying to remove it and was trying to run ahead of me. But I made him walk beside me or behind me, made him sit occasionally and praised him for it, let him stop and drink water/sniff stuff/potty but only when I said it was okay to, NOT when he wanted to. 
I live in the county so we were not around other people and I made sure not to go around my parents dogs just yet. A few cars did drive by and broke his concentration but I would just stop, make him sit for a moment and continue on. After about 5 mins he was doing well with walking at my pace again and was listening well. 
When we returned home I removed the leash 1st then the walking collar then the muzzle last. It took me a few tries to remove the muzzle because he kept moving or getting up. He challenged me at one point by staring at me but I didn't falter this time (granted I was more comfortable with the muzzle still on). He finally sat still and let me remove the muzzle. 
I returned inside while making him 'hold' and stay sitting while I got a treat. I acted like I ate some 1st then gave the rest to him. I did the same later with is food. 
I left for about an hour to eat with my parents and while I was gone I chained him up. I was uncertain about this action because I have had so many mixed emotions about it but I figured maybe it would teach him that he comes and goes when I say, NOT when he wants. 
When I returned I made him sit and lay before I took him off the chain. This is the only time I became uneasy. After off the chain, he would not listen to any commands; he just kept walking towards me. I got his attention on something else and then went inside. I gave him about 30 mins to go outside and potty or do whatever then I made him come into my closed-in porch and closed the door so he would have to stay inside all night. This morning I went on the closed-in porch told him 'outside', made him sit and stay while I opened the door and proceeded to walk out 1st, then I called him out. He went to potty and came right back. I then feed him the same way I did last night, making sure he knew I was 'eating' first. I feel that that all was a good start 
Unfortunately, I have to go out of town this weekend so he will not be chained or put in the porch; but instead allowed to roam free again. Which may make things worse and any progress made so far thrown out the window


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Please, please, please don't chain your dog up. This will only cause the issues you're facing to get worse. Buy a crate, build a kennel. Use some other system to contain him. Don't chain him.
Sheilah


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have to give you credit for the attempts you are making.

Did you say, though, that you will be away for the weekend and the dog is roaming free while you are away? That is a wild dog fending for himself.

Carmen


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is another reason that I want to say again to neuter your dog. 

If you read my posts, you will probably see that I am usually AGAINST spay/neuter and rarely encourage this. 

This does not ALWAYS happen. But it certainly CAN happen. Once a young male has experienced the pleasure of breeding, he can change his attitude, completely. If your dog has not already bred the females next door, he is going to. And he can become even worse than what is going on now, especially when someone is in heat. 

Your parents do not believe in penning their dogs. Chaining your dog will NOT stop him from breeding their females. When females are ready, they will be just as bad as males to get themselves bred. They will come over and let your dog service them. 

A dog that lives in with the family and has regular training, or a dog who has good leadership and structure will not usually have a problem being bred, it does not make them "more alpha" or incorrigible, or aggressive. If a dog does become hard to manage or aggressive to their people, they should not be bred ever. 

Leaving the dog intact, in this case, in this environment, will sabotage your efforts to regain the control that you lost. 

I wish you well.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

sit said:


> Please, please, please don't chain your dog up. This will only cause the issues you're facing to get worse. Buy a crate, build a kennel. Use some other system to contain him. Don't chain him.
> Sheilah


Okay. I do not have the funds at this time to do any of those options but I can just start making him stay inside of the closed-in porch.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I have to give you credit for the attempts you are making.
> 
> Did you say, though, that you will be away for the weekend and the dog is roaming free while you are away? That is a wild dog fending for himself.
> 
> Carmen


Thank you; it was a bit of a struggle. Yes, I wish I had another option but the only other thing I can do is lock him in the closed-in porch and get my mom to go out and let him in and out to potty and walk and feed him. I was hesitant about this though because idk how he will act towards her.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> There is another reason that I want to say again to neuter your dog.
> 
> If you read my posts, you will probably see that I am usually AGAINST spay/neuter and rarely encourage this.
> 
> ...


Okay, thank you!! I agree with what you are saying as well. My family and I have always had free-roaming, non-neutered male dogs, and almost always spayed females for as long as I remember and have never had problems with them. And my parents have rarely done any types of training like I have tried. And I have decided now that I am going to have him neutered asap and not breed him.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

non-neutered roaming male dogs = trouble, hard life and eventually a dead dog. So you live in a rural area? how long did your roaming dogs live growing up? Where I grew up a dog that lived to 4 or 5 years old was absolutely ancient! The most common cause of death was being shot - either for running deer, bothering livestock, or just being a general nuisance. You say you never had any problems with the dogs?? I bet your neighbors had plenty! Of course the dogs are well-behaved at home; they're always worn out from all the trouble they've caused elsewhere.
My neighbors across the street also believe in letting their dogs roam free. I believe they are on their 4th dog and they've only lived there about 8 months or so. 1 disappeared, 1 hit by a car and left to die in the yard, and 1 shot by another neighbor. The pup has already had several narrow escapes and probably won't be around much longer.

Their last dog, the one that was shot by another neighbor, well I know how he liked to spend his time. On Jan 3, he killed my daughter's pet bunny while she watched from the window. That was the culmination of numerous attempts to kill chickens, eat the other neighbors cats, attack their dogs that were inside a fenced yard, growling at people who tried to stop him from eating their garbage. Even after they were warned by the cops that he would be shot, they let him out to run. Not even 10 minutes had passed since the cops had left their driveway. After all, this is a mostly rural area and dogs are meant to be free and run around.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> non-neutered roaming male dogs = trouble, hard life and eventually a dead dog. So you live in a rural area? how long did your roaming dogs live growing up? Where I grew up a dog that lived to 4 or 5 years old was absolutely ancient! The most common cause of death was being shot - either for running deer, bothering livestock, or just being a general nuisance. You say you never had any problems with the dogs?? I bet your neighbors had plenty! Of course the dogs are well-behaved at home; they're always worn out from all the trouble they've caused elsewhere.
> My neighbors across the street also believe in letting their dogs roam free. I believe they are on their 4th dog and they've only lived there about 8 months or so. 1 disappeared, 1 hit by a car and left to die in the yard, and 1 shot by another neighbor. The pup has already had several narrow escapes and probably won't be around much longer.
> 
> Their last dog, the one that was shot by another neighbor, well I know how he liked to spend his time. On Jan 3, he killed my daughter's pet bunny while she watched from the window. That was the culmination of numerous attempts to kill chickens, eat the other neighbors cats, attack their dogs that were inside a fenced yard, growling at people who tried to stop him from eating their garbage. Even after they were warned by the cops that he would be shot, they let him out to run. Not even 10 minutes had passed since the cops had left their driveway. After all, this is a mostly rural area and dogs are meant to be free and run around.


Yes, I live in a rural/countryside area. 
The two closest houses are inhabited by family and the rest are close neighbors. 
We did have less trouble out of the spayed females and the last one I had died of natural causes at the age of about 15. Majority of the female dogs we had were like that as well. The males, usually non-neutered, lived close to the same age, but some did get stolen/shot/or poisoned and one disappeared and we never saw him again...
We did occasionally have trouble out of them wanting to chase the cows our neighbors had but we broke them quickly of that. 
I do feel bad that so many people have had troubled experiences with other people letting their dog/dogs run free, but I can honestly say that I am not the type who would continue to let my dog cause destruction and mayhem.
Shepherd has been a homebody since we moved back home 3 months ago; the other two dogs of my parents go on a 3-5 hr expedition every day but Shepherd never goes with. I just noticed about a week ago he had gone with them then after that is when most of my problems started 

*How does everyone feel about the electric dog flag fences? Instead of buying a fence or building a kennel I thought about doing this instead.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It will not keep the bitches out, nor coyotes, nor other dogs. 

It will not keep your boy home either if there is a good enough reason to go through it -- chasing a deer, a cyclist, a bitch in heat. And from what I hear, it is not just put the collar on, install the fence and you are done. I guess you have to actually train the dog to respect the fence/boarders. I have never had one so I do not know about that though. 

I guess it can keep your dog somewhat contained, but it cannot keep the dog safe, from other critters. It also will not keep someone from coming onto your property without knowing the dog is there. And unless you keep the signs and flags up, no one else knows your dog is contained. So, someone who is fearful for themselves or their critter may do something stupid to protect themselves. 

You have a problem with this dog. Too much freedom seems to increase the problem. An e-fence would be ok for you if you are out with the dog. But a 10'x5-6'x6' or better two 10'x5-6'x6' kennels made into 1 20' x 10-12' kennel with a concrete base and fencing above. I have seen the 10'x5' kennels at Tractor Supply Co, for $300. They sell extra panels too. So you can customize the size. The dog does not need 20 acres to run in. What he needs is a safe place. Kenneling the dog when you are not actually working with him can help him a lot. 

However if you have bitches running through your yard, you could create a barker. What about putting up a kennel in your garage or basement? 

Leaving some dogs loose, really isn't an issue -- I mean from the dog's behavior viewpoint. Leaving any dog roam is actually one of my worst pet peeves. But your dog seems to have an issue with the amount of freedom he has. Your dog needs to have a routine and understand that you are in charge of his comings and goings. So, an e-fence is really not a good idea. Not for your dog especially.


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## Bismarck's_Dad (Apr 2, 2011)

i agree that an electric fence is not for your dog.
you need a regular wooden fence.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> It will not keep the bitches out, nor coyotes, nor other dogs.
> 
> It will not keep your boy home either if there is a good enough reason to go through it -- chasing a deer, a cyclist, a bitch in heat. And from what I hear, it is not just put the collar on, install the fence and you are done. I guess you have to actually train the dog to respect the fence/boarders. I have never had one so I do not know about that though.
> 
> ...



Okay, thank you!! I am possibly getting donated a fencing system with extra panels hopefully so I will be working on that. In the meantime I have just been keeping him in my closed-in porch, not while I'm at work though because it can get pretty hot in there, but if I leave for a few hours and for overnight. 
You are correct about having to train them to not cross the e-fence. So that would be even more training and time I would have to put him through.
I am going to continue to do what I have been doing and keep working with him at least until I can get a fence and have him neutered.


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## MKirby (Apr 7, 2011)

Bismarck's_Dad said:


> i agree that an electric fence is not for your dog.
> you need a regular wooden fence.



Thank you!!


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