# Leash Dilemma..Yikes



## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Yeah, I know that I am not experienced with gsd's and blah blah blah. 
Here goes: 
I step on Thors front feet when were walking. This is because he pulls away from me and wants to be ahead. I shorten the leash so much that I am practically just walking him by his collar and he doesnt let up. SO his front foot is coming in my path and I step right on his foot. 
He lunges on his leash and pulls and drags me. 
I am trying to walk him a few steps and make him sit...after he sits for 10 seconds without moving, he gets a bacon.
Well....its not enough. Most times I have to sit on his butt to get him to sit and he doesnt seem to care to much about the treats cause he is so excited about everything else. 
What am I doing wrong? Do I need to change my technique?? 
HELP


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

You need to take a huge step back and re-evaluate what you are doing.
How often is he walked? 
What sort of distractions do you see on your walks?
How much exercise is he getting?
How old is he?
What sort of collar is he on?
How much training does he get per day?

I could go on and on..but a general day to day schedule of how you interact with him would help greatly. 

Without knowing anything about his life, I would say start with NILF and get signed up at some puppy/dog obedience classes. Its fun and will help your bond and get him to be more interested in you.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

1. He is walked daily for 30 minutes, by himself, I dont take Rogue.
2. We see people, kids riding bikes, the occasional car, and other dogs behind chain link fences barking their heads off, he is also interested in bushes, mailboxes, leaves. we also see a cat every once in a blue moon.
3. 30 minute walks/and 45 min to an hour play outside with me. he also gets a lot of intense play with rogue for about an hour a day.
4. he is 9/10 months old
5. he is on a choke collar
6. i work with him on sit and lay for 10-12 minutes a day (he isnt getting lay yet)

What do I need to re-evaluate?? I am ready to get this right with him so I can run him like I do with Rogue. She just "got" the leash after about a week. I didnt really have to work with her at all!


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

The 30 minutes of walking is hardly walking though cause I am always making us stop and it just seems to get him anxious which is why I make him sit (or try to make him) and I meant to write choke chain (not collar)


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK if your reward (food) is not enticing, you need a better quality reward. Toy? Steak? Boiled chicken?
And get him excited about this stuff in backyard training - so he WILL find it rewarding.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Do you have a place to run him out before you walk? If you can do some hard fetch to get him panting HARD, you can work out some of the crazies before going for a walk. A choke chain isn't the best way to walk- they will buckle down and pull and really choke. Good alternatives are no-pull harnesses or a prong collar. Middle's suggestion of finding more rewarding food is great. Some dogs like hot dogs better than bacon. My dog really loved it if I sauteed bacon in some olive oil with garlic powder. Brought out the scent, flavor, and made them that much more enticing.

Also, be sure to walk BRISKLY to keep interest and reduce the fighting, at least until you're well into the training and getting good results. We humans walk at geriatric snail paces so it's no wonder the dogs get tired of our shenanigans.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

When I try to jog a bit, he really starts tuggin trying to run, and he pulls me down that way. Running him before the walk is a good idea and I will also try hotdogs, I know he loves those! How do I keep him from being treat dependant though and what should I do when he pulls me? Also, what do you mean about choke chains not working so well?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

marinehoney said:


> What am I doing wrong?


Pretty much everything! :laugh:



> Do I need to change my technique??


YES!!! Sorry, I'm not trying to beat up on you, I just want to stress that when you're teaching your dog to walk nicely on a loose leash you pretty much have to abandon the idea of simply "going for a walk". Every second you're out there with him you're training him - and that can either be actively teaching him to do it the way you want him to, or teaching him that he doesn't have to. Your techniques seem to be accomplishing the latter, not the former. Think about it from his point of view - what he's doing is working for him! He still gets to go where he wants to go when he pulls, so what incentive does he have to change what he's doing? 

He wants to be ahead so he pulls, and you shorten the leash. How is that teaching him not to pull? 

You walk a few steps and make him sit. He gets rewarded for sitting. What does he get for walking nicely and not pulling? 

If you have to practically sit on his butt to get him to sit he either doesn't fully understand the sit command (he may not have generalized it to all circumstances and situations), or you haven't worked on it in a low distraction environment until it's solid and then gradually increased the level of distraction and difficulty, so you're asking him for more than he's capable of doing (an exercise in futility), or you haven't reinforced focus and attention enough so there's no foundation to build on once you increase distractions, or he simply doesn't care what you want him to do because he doesn't have to - there are no consequences, good or bad, for compliance or non-compliance. Or, all of the above! 

I'm not sure how long you've had him, but if you're working on getting him to lay down on command for 10 or 12 minutes a day (just once a day?) and he's already 9 or 10 months old and still won't always do it, then you need to re-evaluate everything. 

For one thing, I'd be doing LOTS of short training sessions every day. If you can do 5 or 10 minutes 3 or more times a day, that would be great. How exactly are you working on teaching him sit and down? Where do you train him (in the house - what room/s? in the yard?)?

We have lots and lots of threads about teaching loose leash walking, have you read any of them? I can find some for you if you haven't seen them yet - they have lots of links to techniques that WILL work if you're committed to trying them and sticking with it.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

This may sound odd... or maybe not lol

Once we finally got Woolf on a leash as a pup, he did the usual pull ahead, to the side, to the back, and plopping his butt down. You get the idea, a total nightmare to walk. I backed up and worked with him in the backyard on leash. Keeping the leash loose, walked a square, quick 90 degree turns, kept it unpredictable, reversing direction, changing speed, slow walk, running, average walk speed. He had to keep his eye on me or he would find himself walking the opposite direction at the end of the leash.

I had tried the stop and sit or reverse direction while walking, they didn't work, this did. Of course, DH had way to much fun laughing at me lol

Check out these videos for training tips


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Wow thank you for that!
You are completely right about rewarding him for sitting, its not teaching him to walk! 

We have had him for one month, and maybe I do need to work on him more than once a day. He was allowed to do whatever he wanted until now. 

I train him alone in the backyard and there isnt really a lot of distractions, only some barks or an airplane. Should I train him in the house first? so there are no distractions? 
He sits nicely in training, but when we walk, he doesnt care at all what I say and he will choke himself the whole time. 

Okay, so if pulling on the leash doesnt help...what do I do? Stop when he gets ahead of my thigh and stand there til he comes back? Or turn and walk the other way maybe? 

When I teach him to sit I say SIT and first I was putting my hand on his butt to get him down. He sits and after 10 seconds of sitting and looking at me. i give him a treat. 

When I am trying to model lay down I pick up his front legs and put them on the ground or else he gets all nervous and anxious and doesnt know what I am doing. I may need some advice for laying cause obviously I am doing something wrong.

THANK YOU so much for your advice!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I'd highly recommend you take the choke chain off and throw it in the garbage. Never had good expereinces with them and will never use them again.

Have you ever tried a prong collar before? At 9-10 months, he should be ready for it if you want to give it a shot. They're 100x better and more effective than choke collars.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

I have the choke chains on them because they seem more comfortable when theyre just lounging around the house and in the backyard. Should the prong collar only be used on the walk? I will be getting one tommorow!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Yes... only on walks. Get the Herm Springer model with the quick snap release. I forget the size I got, but this is the model. And I'll be waiting for your post tomorrow about how much better he's walking with the prong... it's going to be like night and day. 

http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cf...ame/Herm_Sprenger_Quick_Release_Prong_Collars

Oh and make sure it's fitted on the neck correctly. I see so many dogs out walking with prongs and it's on their neck completely wrong. Check out this link...

Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> Yes... only on walks. Get the Herm Springer model with the quick snap release. I forget the size I got, but this is the model. And I'll be waiting for your post tomorrow about how much better he's walking with the prong... it's going to be like night and day.
> 
> Herm Sprenger Quick Release Prong Collars - Cherrybrook
> 
> ...


 
This is so informative and helpful, thank you so much!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

marinehoney said:


> Wow thank you for that!
> You are completely right about rewarding him for sitting, its not teaching him to walk!


Glad you took all that the way it was intended! 



> We have had him for one month, and maybe I do need to work on him more than once a day. He was allowed to do whatever he wanted until now.


Yes, yes, yes. You've only had him a month and he hasn't had any prior training, so I would definitely be doing lots of short training sessions throughout the day. He's big and strong and hard to control so it's going to be more challenging than if you had gotten him when he was still a puppy, but it's not the end of the world, it's just harder. And I would totally go back to the beginning and work on the basics. Normally I'd teach a dog how to walk on leash motivationally before I'd use a prong, but in your case I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to put one one him. If he's strong enough to yank you around then you need a way to control him while you work on his training. Definitely ditch the choke collar.



> I train him alone in the backyard and there isnt really a lot of distractions, only some barks or an airplane. Should I train him in the house first? so there are no distractions?


WHAT?!?!? Silly you - your backyard is full of interesting sights and smells, haven't you noticed?  I guarantee your dog has! Yes, indoors first, everywhere. When Halo was in puppy class we did our homework each day in a different room in the house, and then we worked in the garage, and the backyard, and out on the sidewalk in front of the house, and then a busy corner with lots of traffic, then a strip mall, in front of Starbucks, a supermarket, the bowling alley, next to a basketball court, a baseball field..... _Gradually_ increase distractions as he starts to generalize commands and learns to focus in new environments. 

And I think I'd find a yummy treat that's really tiny that he can have a lot of, or you can even use his kibble and make him work for part of his meals. Get a treat bag if you don't have one or wear clothes with pockets - have treats on you at all times, and start marking and rewarding every single thing he does. He looks at you? "yes!"/treat. He walks towards you? "yes!"/treat. He lays down on his own? "yes!"/treat. He sits on his own? "yes!"/treat. With 2 dogs it can be harder, so set aside some time each day where you separate them and can do some one on one training with him where you don't actually ask him to DO anything, you just reward him for doing things you like. Remember, the more good stuff happens when he does something, the more he's going to do it! With sits and downs I'd mark it and toss the treat across the room so they had to get up to get it and then wait for the dog to sit or lay down again. You can get lots of repetitions this way. As soon as he figures out that staying close to you and looking at you earns him yummy treats you're going to have to pry him off you! 

Once he's sitting, laying down, coming towards you, or looking at you, you can start naming those behavior and putting them on cue. When he's starting to lay down, use your command for that and when he does it, mark/reward. If he's just about to sit, say the command and when he sits, mark/reward. When he's consistently doing what you want on cue, you can start rewarding randomly and alternating with praise when you don't give him a treat. And then start working on the exact same things in a more distracting environment! If his brain explodes and he needs help, lure him with a treat into a sit or a lay at first. Just because he can do it in your kitchen at home that doesn't mean he's going to do it when there's a cat on your neighbor's lawn next door, so that's when you help him with a lure.



> When I teach him to sit I say SIT and first I was putting my hand on his butt to get him down. He sits and after 10 seconds of sitting and looking at me. i give him a treat.


I would much rather see you lure him into a sit with a treat than to physically push him into one. For one thing his oppositional reflex can kick in - that's where he pushes back against you instead of moving into the direction you're pushing. Some people actually push on their dogs butts to proof a stand because it can make the dog more determined to stand, so consider how you're working against yourself by doing that. When I use a lure, I get the lure out of that hand just as quickly as I can, which is usually after the first couple of repetitions with a smart dog. You don't want him to rely on the sight of food in your hand as a secondary cue and only comply when it's there. So I would lure a couple of times and then use the same motion with an empty hand (this becomes my hand signal), mark it (yes!) and reward from the other hand. Again, once he's becoming reliable you would reward randomly and then start to phase out food rewards entirely and just tell him what a good boy he is!



> When I am trying to model lay down I pick up his front legs and put them on the ground or else he gets all nervous and anxious and doesnt know what I am doing. I may need some advice for laying cause obviously I am doing something wrong.


Ack - same thing! Either lure him down with a treat, or wait until he lays down on his own, or both, which is what I do. I've never had any trouble teaching a dog to lay down because they do it dozens of times every single day. Reward it when he does, then add the command right before, mark and reward when he does it. Very, very simple. 

I'll try to find some previous threads about loose leash walking for you later.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

One great thing about not always telling him what to do (especially if he doesn't understand what the command even MEANS yet!) and just rewarding him for offering stuff up on his own, is that you're building default (automatic) behaviors. My dogs have very strong default sit and watch behaviors and Halo especially has a terrific default down. If she wants something and I just stand there and look at her she'll offer a down because that has a high rate of reinforcement in the past. If the dogs want to go outside and I walk to the door and just stand there rather than open it, they automatically sit and look at me because they know that's how to "make" me open the door. If I open the door and they start to rush out without being released to go out, I pull the door shut in their faces, so they learn that they must remain seated with eye contact until I say "okay". You can use default behaviors in so many ways.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom--
If I could nominate you for best poster I WOULD! 
All of your info is so helpful! 
I have already tried it. I had a small session with thor just a few minutes ago. I got a hotdog and cut it into ten pieces. We did sit 5 times and lay 5 times. 
He seems to have mastered sit. I walk away from him and he follows me and stares at me (which I like!, he does this when were having momma/thor time) 
then i say sit while holding my hand out flat and he sits..
YAY, good boy, you get a hotdog. He did it with treat five times and without five times...but I could tell he was looking for the hot dog lol.
Next came lay...I had him sit..and then I put my hotdog hand on the ground and he layed.
YAY, good boy, hotdog. Then I got up and walked a few steps and did it again. 
He still needs work because he has to always go from sit to lay and wont just lay straight out, but that is ok were going to keep at it! 
hotdogs work 10000000x better than bacon or anything else ive tried!
One good trick he already knows is how to ring the bell when he wants out, its so cute. 
Thor wants to please us but not as much as rogue. she just WANTS to lay and sit and heel and i never really needed to work with her, she is such an amazing and smart dog. 
Thank you ten fold for your advice I am writing all of it down and keeping it handy. 
Also I am going to keep training him in the house for now, because youre right, completely silent and no distractions, cause rogue is having daddy time in the next room  
again. thank you.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lucy Dog said:


> Yes... only on walks. Get the Herm Springer model with the quick snap release. I forget the size I got, but this is the model. And I'll be waiting for your post tomorrow about how much better he's walking with the prong... it's going to be like night and day.
> 
> Herm Sprenger Quick Release Prong Collars - Cherrybrook
> 
> ...


My comment to that is I actually thing the standard Herm Springer is easier to put on than the one with the quick release and less likely to pop loose and has a smoother correction...I use one with Beau and we DID have loose leash walking at a younger age, so I realize the bigger challenge you face, but now I am going thorugh a phase where we do need the prong with ocassional reminder pops.....anyway.....to me it is much easier to just put on that collar.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't think I've ever used a prong without the quick release, but they're definitely not hard to put on. I can put the thing on in about 3 seconds and it's off in half a second. It's really easy.

As for the smoother correction... You may have a point with that. The quick release snap isn't always as smooth as I'd like.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

you've gotten some great advice and I would definitely go with a prong collar.

Something I wanted to mention, I saw you post it was easier to use chokes/leave them on when they were in the backyard?

Beware, leaving any type of collar, a choke especially when you aren't right there to supervise can be very dangerous.

Dogs rough housing can get themselves tangled in collars, they will go crazy and could literally end up choking one or both to death to get free. Choke collars can become caught on something and again, choke your dog to death.

My dogs never have collars on unless I am off property....

Happy training


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Whoa that is scary, I never thought of that before. However, if someone got in the backyard, with my untrained dogs. and I needed to get them back...would i just pull by their scruff or under their bellies?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Post lots of signs that declare you have German shepherds present. Do not use any "Beware of Dog" as those are legal issues in some states but something like "German Shepherds on Duty" or "We <3 German Shepherds" will make people think twice before opening gates. Keep locks on the gates if possible. It is much better to prevent access than it is to deal with people unwelcome in your yard. In any case, you should also be working on a very strong recall. For my wonderful fence fighter, I go up to him and start shoving treats into his mouth when he starts barking at people or other dogs milling about next door which is helping to ease the negative reactivity but I also will call him in the house and reward him with different treats. Sometimes it's a basic training treat, sometimes it's a piece of salami, sometimes a tug game, sometimes nothing, sometimes a piece of cheeseburger. He is very reliable on that sort of recall. Occasionally he does get sent back out after a treat so getting called in doesn't mean the fun's over, it just means lots of treats and more fun! 

Try doing the same with your dogs. Randomly call them in without any distractions and give them any goodies you can think of. A lick of honey from spoons, a mouthful of leftovers from dinner, two brand new bully sticks to chew, a can of tuna each in their bowls, a carrot each dipped in peanut butter, anything to make them think "holy cow, when she calls us in, we get AWESOME things!" Mix it up so it is never the same and make sure to send them back outside after some of the recalls. Start to do the same under distraction. 

If you really want them to have collars, breakaway collars are a good idea. If they hook a tooth or paw, they will be able to snap off the collar. Or just use their leashes and make a loop so they work like animal control leashes. That will work fine in a pinch.

It is so REFRESHING to have someone ask questions and genuinely want to learn and soak up the advice!  Your dogs are SO lucky!


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

I LOVE your part about recall and calling them in and treating them! I am so going to start doing this now! Thank you  : )


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

And YES every question I ask I am taking notes down and posting them on my fridge and actually try almost every piece of advice i have gotten off of here! I LOVE constructive criticism and advice and am thankful for every bit of it i get


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

you've received some awesome advice in this thread!
the good thing is that thor is food motivated.

and on the "down" command, my foster dog would only do a down, from the sit position also. it just takes time, it will click for him. 
the multiple, short training sessions alone is awesome. however you also want to train while both dogs are present, once he learns it and has it down pat.

once he has the verbal commands down, add in a physical gesture. they'll associate the physical gesture with the verbal command and you won't need to say "sit" or "down", just give the physical gesture and they'll do it.

teach him "look". when he looks you directly in the eye, he gets a treat. do that until he will constantly look at you for a treat, then gradually extend the time you require him to look at you, before treating him.
i also like "touch" game. 





this can be used later in more advanced training, and is an awesome command for them to learn and become more confident. 

have fun !!


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I just want to say that this is one of the most pleasant learning threads I've seen on here!


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

I LOVE it! I have learned so much!


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Thor didnt do too good tonight on our walk. I think its because hubby took baby and Rogue walking and we were 20 ft + behind them and he wanted to get to them so bad. I was constantly turning him around to deter him and he wouldnt even take treats tonight, his focus was Rogue, baby, and hub. Was it too soon to this or do you think with more nights like this we can see more progress? He kept crying and jumping up on me when I would turn us around, he was getting really anxious and I felt bad for him.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

start training. 10 to 12 minutes a day isn't enough.
find a trainer.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

whats with these short and vague answers doggiedad? 
1.) I train him a heck of a lot more than 10-12 minutes a day 
2.) I am his trainer, and we just signed up for an OB course
thanks for the....advice


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

yeah i think you're trying to do too much too soon.

with other dog, dad and baby in the lead, he would normally want to get up and be equal or ahead.
if you're going to have a family walk, the others should acknowledge you're working with his correct walking issues, and will need to wait while you correct him on walks.

I'd just go with the one on one for now, unless they're ok with waiting for you.

it's normal for him to want to be equal or in the lead with the others, it just takes time and patience to show him that when you are walking him, he should be equal with you and not have to worry about where the other dog is.


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

going with the thought of working on "look" with thor, like somebody mentioned in a previous post...something that has helped me (ok here comes the disclaimer...i am NOT a professional and i'm on my very first GSD) was working on the "look" command during walks. with that being said, i have always worked on that since he was a puppy, so it was solid inside the house before i took it outside, but it has helped him focus on me rather than other things that may be going on around us. just a thought.


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