# "Automatic outs"



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

So recently I have been noticing a trend with a few bite sports where the dogs are automatically outing once the helper/decoy locks up. Is this a desired behavior? What are your reasons for doing this/not doing this?


I will start. One of the groups I train with said yes because "that's the way the Germans have done it". Well that's not reason enough for me. I refuse to have my dogs auto out for one reason. Yes I train sport but I try to keep my dogs as "real" as possible. I look at it like this. If my dog bites a real bad guy and he stops moving then my dog outs, then it gives the bad guy a chance/reason to start running again. That means my dog is going to engage again and take a second bite causing more damage that my dog and myself are liable for. Plus at that point if a guy is running away then he is no longer a threat and now I'm really screwed. So I will not teach an auto out.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I hate to see it. Right up there with a dog who tucks his forelegs in from being "swept" too much. 
People have told me they would rather have a too quick, clean out than have slow outs.....


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

That's what I have heard to and I hate it!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Don't really like it, prefer the dog to fight until I say out. In fact I think I'd rather have a dog that is like "aus!" (count one one thousand) and the dog outs, than a dog who is thinking about outing and waiting for the helper to act like he's locked up. You can always work on a faster/cleaner out on command. In what context is the dog outing before the command useful or desireable? I believe in some sports (SDA?) the dog MUST fight until the out command is given. Similarly in SDA when doing the alerting exercises the dog MUST remain barking/alerting until he is recalled (even if the decoy is walking away and going back into a blind). You turn the dog on, you turn the dog off. Makes sense to me.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Don't really like it, prefer the dog to fight until I say out. In fact I think I'd rather have a dog that is like "aus!" (count one one thousand) and the dog outs, than a dog who is thinking about outing and waiting for the helper to act like he's locked up. You can always work on a faster/cleaner out on command. In what context is the dog outing before the command useful or desireable? I believe in some sports (SDA?) the dog MUST fight until the out command is given. Similarly in SDA when doing the alerting exercises the dog MUST remain barking/alerting until he is recalled (even if the decoy is walking away and going back into a blind). You turn the dog on, you turn the dog off. Makes sense to me.


 

You are correct. This weekend I saw a couple dogs lose points for outing too early. I'm with you, I don't want the dog to anticipate the out. I'm just seeing this auto out stuff everywhere lately so I thought I would ask.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I do believe, a new rule discourages this for IPO as well... The rules state there must be a "transition" (my interpretation: fighting) phase between the lock-up and the out. 

I like scrappy dogs personally. I like a dog that might be a bit dirty and slow to out but is fighting till the end. I like a dog that acts as if he's thinking "Locking up and freezing ain't going to get you out of this one buddy..."  I usually have him fight for a while. NO out. Escape, fight, drive, fight. Then maybe I'll out. If my dog starts having outing problems we might work on that specifically but I *personally* wouldn't teach auto out to a dog just because he has outing trouble.

But I have seen auto outs taught on certain dogs because their handlers preferred it that way. If those handlers were still at our club I might have asked them why, but now my curiosity is piqued. I'd love to hear someone's reasons for being pro auto-out


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I would think the auto-out would be helpful points-wise for a dog who regrips/chews/thrashes or performs other points losing behaviors after the lock-up but before the out.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

This will now lose you points in IPO. I believe it's been reworded that your dog should not out until given the command.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

mycobraracr said:


> You are correct. This weekend I saw a couple dogs lose points for outing too early. I'm with you, I don't want the dog to anticipate the out. I'm just seeing this auto out stuff everywhere lately so I thought I would ask.


Yes, even though you lose points per the rules, people are still training it.

And maybe sometimes it is just the dog?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

We have several members that train the automatic out. They would rather loose a few points for too quick an out than DQ for no out. One very strong club dog DQed last year at the se regional for not outing. I am sure that was very aggrevating after all that training.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Robk is correct. Quick outs can negate a possible DQ. Same with when people were ous and downing the dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Even an auto out is no guarantee that the dog will out in a stressful situation though. I saw a dog with an auto out get dq'd for still not outing. I try (key word is try) and train my dog to out weather the helper is locked up or not. When I say out I mean out darn it. I think too often people only work outs when helper is locked up so when stressed the dog feels it's still "in the fight" and wont out. I don't it's just a thought.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

The out down I do like. The dog can guard but eliminates some dirty bites.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

GSDElsa said:


> This will now lose you points in IPO. I believe it's been reworded that your dog should not out until given the command.


Actually an auto-out is allowed with no point deduction. I believe where you are going to lose any points on the auto-out is when the dog outs before the helper has completely finished locking up. All it calls for is a brief transition period between helper locking up and dog outing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't get how auto-outs negate a DQ for not outing....why not just train the dog to out clean on command?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Depends on the fight of the dog. Some dogs with a lot of fight might not out. And depends on the helper, as well. If you have a helper that can not handle a dog and the dog is pulling all over or the catch is not good/hurts the dog = dog fighting and possible not out.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't get how auto-outs negate a DQ for not outing....why not just train the dog to out clean on command?


I think it is a risk for some dogs who are very dominant. They may out clean most of the time but why risk a regional or national level championship if they are stellar everywhere else.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My dog was not outing without being checked, then he started auto outing as soon as the helper locked up. 
I don't want the auto out. The following weekend we went to a new field w/ new helper he's never seen, he won't out....so back to correcting the out. 
Cleaned it up and now he is outing fine, but he fights and the helper(s) has a hard time often locking up with him/which causes a bit of conflict when I command him to out, there still may be some movement because the helper can't hold the sleeve still. 
Because I know my dog will 'test' a (new to him) helper, it is a fine line....he may not out when we trial unless he's been worked on that helper a couple of times. Hopefully consistent training will fix that so we won't have an issue.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Yup, that's what happened to the dog I saw. The helper didn't lock up all the way because the dog kept fighting and the dog didn't out. It was on the last bite too. All the dog needed to do was out and she would have had a nice 3 score. This dog normally auto outs but.... When I have a hard fighting dog on my sleeve I grab with both hands. I'm not above doing that to get as still as possible but not all helpers will. I also change the angle of the bite bar, suck into myself as much as possible and stick my leg out just a bit to make it as uncomfortable for the dog as I can. Now a bite suit is a whole other story.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

robk said:


> I think it is a risk for some dogs who are very dominant. They may out clean most of the time but why risk a regional or national level championship if they are stellar everywhere else.


Does not outing = dominant dogs? I guess most of the ones I've seen that was not the case, there were other issues that were being channeled into the dog not outing and hectic stuff going on. Also I've seen with some really large, strong dogs that if the helper does not or cannot lock up it's sometimes a lost cause.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

KJenkins said:


> Actually an auto-out is allowed with no point deduction. I believe where you are going to lose any points on the auto-out is when the dog outs before the helper has completely finished locking up. All it calls for is a brief transition period between helper locking up and dog outing.


Ah, you are correct now that I think about it. All those blurry lines .....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

AWDF clarification: American Working Dog Federation Home Page

_Hello sport friends,

I had the pleasure of attending the FCI Leistungsrichter seminar (Judge Seminar) along with UScA judge Frank Phillips and AWMA judge Cynthia Zimmerman. This event was held in Nova Gorica, Slovenia. In this seminar, discussions and rule clarifications were held regarding interpretations of the latest trial rules. The meeting was run by FCI working commission president Frans Jansen. Each phase of our sport had a guest speaker from the FCI working commission. These speakers were also the authors of the latest FCI IPO rules. 


AWDF President Al Govednik talks with FCI Working Commission President Frans Jansen
During these discussions, questions and answers were given in multiple languages. The idea of this is that all countries that follow the IPO program are to have their judges follow the same set of rules. Fifty five (55) judges from throughout the world, some with interpreters, attended this meeting. I have listed below some of the high points of these discussions. 

Gunter Diegel started the Saturday morning discussion on Phase C, the protection work. In his talk, it was stressed that as judges we are to look for balances in nerve, disposition, guide ability, along with physical and psychological strength. He also stated just as importantly that the dogs must clearly out, must show power in guarding, and the handler/dog teams must work in harmony. 

Helpers must wear jackets, and must allow the dog a chance to show the guarding work. 


As far as specific rules go:
If a dog can not be called out of the blind after the command is given3 times, the team is disqualified.
The dog can jump during the guarding phase, but can not touch the helper.
If on the escape the dog breaks and runs to the helper, and can be recalled the exercise can continue. If the dog can not be recalled the team will be disqualified.
*The transition phase (when the dog releases the grip) begins when the helper stops moving.
The dog needs to show the out in the front of the helper, and must show a clear out.*
The dog must remain 5 paces behind the helper during the rear transport.
The handler must wait for the judge to give the release command on the long catch, and up to 3 points can be deducted for an unruly dog. Also please note that if the dog leaves or escapes from the handler on the long catch, the dog can be dismissed as out of control._


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Does not outing = dominant dogs? I guess most of the ones I've seen that was not the case, there were other issues that were being channeled into the dog not outing and hectic stuff going on. Also I've seen with some really large, strong dogs that if the helper does not or cannot lock up it's sometimes a lost cause.


It is possible that I am mis-interpreting what I am seeing. I do not have a problem with outing with my own dog. He is very clean and outs when commanded. However of the dogs that I see people working on training an auto out, I perceive them to have much more aggression and dominance than my own.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

GSDElsa said:


> This will now lose you points in IPO. I believe it's been reworded that your dog should not out until given the command.


This is correct. If the dog outs prior to the command - that is an early out and there is a point deduction.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Pg 76 in the new rule book says:
the dog outs immediately with or without a command....no deduction.
http://www.germanshepherddog.com/documents/Rules_Small.pdf


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Smithie86 said:


> This is correct. If the dog outs prior to the command - that is an early out and there is a point deduction.


This statement is Incorrect. No command is needed. 

Keith explained it very well with:

_ "Actually an auto-out is allowed with no point deduction. I believe where you are going to lose any points on the auto-out is when the dog outs before the helper has completely finished locking up. All it calls for is a brief transition period between helper locking up and dog outing. "_

The "transition phase" is now just a term to use when describing dogs that are outing to early. Before with the empasis on clean outs, dogs were outing too early (before *complete* lock up) and they were still getting full points. So in the new rules they added that there must be a transition phase. The helper must come to a complete lockup and then the dog can out with or without a command for full points as long as the out is clean.

Frank


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Frank- What would some advantages/disadvantages be for the auto out?


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

schh3fh2 said:


> This statement is Incorrect. No command is needed.
> 
> Keith explained it very well with:
> 
> ...


Don't do that Frank my heart can't take it!


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

KJenkins said:


> Don't do that Frank my heart can't take it!


When your right your right...


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Frank- What would some advantages/disadvantages be for the auto out?


 I don't really see an advantage / disadvantage either way. For me, it would depend on the dog. For my dog, I say out, but if I don't and the fight stops he will out on his own anyway... But when I give the command, he outs cleaner and faster then if i let him out on his own....


I guess the answer is it depends on your dog and what you want to see...as a judge, either done correctly is acceptable and full points...

Frank


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I know this is an old thread, but this conversation came up again. At my last SDA trial, some dogs competing in the "Police Dog" classes were auto outing. My K9 friends that were there or heard about it, brought it up. They were discussing how in a real world application, it is a bad idea. They made some good points. Just to name a couple;

1) Officer safety. The "bad guy" has stopped moving, you now have multiple officers on the "bad guy" and the dog automatically lets go. Now there is a good chance an officer gets bit. 

2) "Bad guy" stops moving, dog automatically lets go, now giving the "bad guy" another opportunity to grab a weapon or escape. 

3) Passive bites where the "bad guy" isn't moving at all. What's the dog going to do then?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sport is points, police is real life; they both do things based on reasons that are set by experience and vetting in their respective long histories. Police trainers do not judge effectiveness of their dogs by sport standards, and sport standards/training of precision/exact execution for maximum points aren't as important to police work as safety and preventing possible tragedy.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Cliff is right on the money. An "automatic out" is ok for a sport dog, although most top sport trainers no longer train this. For a Police K-9 an automatic out is problematic for all of the reasons mentioned 2 posts above. 

The top German sport trainers that I am friends with no longer train the automatic out. They train "out means out." 

For some the quick out is beneficial, for others the fight and power is more impressive. I can tell you that while I have trained several sport dogs to do the "automatic out" I will not train our patrol dogs to do it. As a matter of fact, the puppy that I am currently raising for IPO work will not have an automatic out. Personal preference I guess. 

I'm going with out means out when I tell you to out, whether it is my patrol dog or sport dog. The dog will hold until I say out, and hold with a full, hard, calm grip.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I do believe now in IPO the dog will lose points if it does an "automatic out".. So it's not just the "top" trainers that are teaching their dogs they must stay on the grip until told other wise!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

G-burg said:


> I do believe now in IPO the dog will lose points if it does an "automatic out".. So it's not just the "top" trainers that are teaching their dogs they must stay on the grip until told other wise!


post #26 here from Frank says no points will be lost for an auto out. 


schh3fh2 said:


> This statement is Incorrect. No command is needed.
> 
> Keith explained it very well with:
> 
> ...


 though....how often does it happen that the helper can't lock up on a strong dog?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

This is right from the rule book.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I thought I had read somewhere recently, that if the dog just outs on it's own it's considered faulty..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

G-burg said:


> I thought I had read somewhere recently, that if the dog just outs on it's own it's considered faulty..


many of us agree with that and probably have posted it...lol.


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