# want a real german shepherd



## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

hello

anyone know where i can get a german shepherd that would be good in personal protection but at the sametime not have really high prey drive? 

i have a lot of chickens and ducks and cats 


also i need one i can let free in my house i hate crates


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Training will help with the prey drive as well as the protection. Crates are a good thing! Just look at the Choosing a responsible breeder sticky for help in choosing the right pup for you!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just curious...what does a non real GSD look like? 

So you want a fully trained GSD? That's really what you are asking for. 

Any dog is going to have to be trained to know what is allowed and not allowed in the house. Also, the best thing to do is make sure your chickens and ducks are fenced in. Cats can be worked with. Mine has a fairly high prey drive and is fine with her cats. All others are fair game, especially if they run, but the one she lives with she is very good with.

Just because German Shepherds are supposed to be a protective breed does not mean all of them are. There are several links that you can research on this board regarding the different lines within the breed and how to find a good breeder. I"m sure MaggieLeeRose will be along with them shortly. I think she must have a draft she copies and pastes for ppl looking for breeders!


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

high prey drive dogs will always kill your pets i dont think u can train it out of them i dont think its fair 2 

i washoping for a dog with high defense and low prey drive


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

not true some german shepherds have this nervous energy they cant sit still and will rip ur house to shreds while others are calm and will sit while in the house 

some will rip ur pets up when u dont see some are smart enough not to 

depends on the breeder


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

exotica said:


> *high prey drive dogs will always kill your pets* i dont think u can train it out of them i dont think its fair 2
> 
> i washoping for a dog with high defense and low prey drive


That is absolute hogwash. As I said, I have a dog with high prey drive. Does it look likes she's going to kill the cat?


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

already read the "how to find a breeder" i know what i want i just have not found the breerder that is good enough


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Where do you live? Do you plan on training your GSD yourself?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

exotica said:


> not true some german shepherds have this nervous energy they cant sit still and will rip ur house to shreds while others are calm and will sit while in the house
> 
> some will rip ur pets up when u dont see some are smart enough not to
> 
> depends on the breeder



Please research this breed a little better and also training, do alot of research on training.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

it is not fair to expose a really high prey drive dog to prey animals its like constantly putting cake in the face of an over weight person 

or like putting cigs in the face of a smoker


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

i read the book german shepherds for dummies ii have had a german shepherd before as a kid


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

i am from canada but willing to buy a dog anywhere if i can find the right one i do not expect to find a dog near me 

i was going to take the dog to training classes i found a personal protection club that trains mals for personal protection i wanted to start my dog there

i am going to pay for personal protection lessons


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

:crazy:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That isn't enough research to know the breed. Look at the pedigree forums, read about the different lines and what their strengths/weaknesses are. For anyone here just to put up a breeder's name for you to purchase from is not showing that you have researched anything. Why would you believe a strangers word? Vs seeing for yourself what is right for you?

Maybe start going to the club and learn, make sure the club knows what they are doing. Then the club members may be able to direct you to a good responsible breeder.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

oh i want to add i ahve taken many dog training classes in the past and know how to basic train a dog


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> high prey drive dogs will always kill your pets i dont think u can train it out of them i dont think its fair 2


LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Someone please tell my very high prey drive Malinois that she is supposed to kill my cats. Or the bunny when I was suckered into taking a bunny in. Obviously, there must be something wrong with her if her prey drive is not telling her to kill other members of the family who live in the same home.



> i was going to take the dog to training classes i found a personal protection club that trains mals for personal protection i wanted to start my dog there


That would be an excellent start for you - get involved with the club before you even think about buying a dog. You'll find out more about the amount and level of training that is required for a true working personal protection dog, as well as the level of upkeep to keep that training current and going. (It's not something you just train and then stop, you have to continue training.) Working a true personal protection dog or even a sport dog in Ringsport or Schutzhund is a lifestyle, not something you do in your spare time once or twice. It's very different from basic obedience, too, or training to have a good family pet.



> also i need one i can let free in my house i hate crates


Anyone who says they hate crates probably does not have a lot of knowledge about dog behavior and training. Most dogs like their crates and go into them even without being asked or told. My GSD used to sleep in her crate every night even though she was loose in the house and could have slept on one of the dog beds or even the couch.

If you want a dog you can let loose in the house, you will either need to work with the dog until s/he can be trusted to be lose in the house (never as a puppy!) or buy an adult that is already trained and safe in the home.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

would it be hard to find a good older puppy? maybe one that is 8 or 9 months?


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## AvaLaRue (Apr 4, 2010)

opcorn:


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

if i got a dog suitable for personal protection would i still have a choice as to weather i want to train the dog in PP or not? what happens if you stop the training?


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## 48496 (Sep 1, 2010)

Not an expert here by any means, but even at 8 and 9 months old, we still crated Dakota when we left the house. She was too young to be left alone in the house and certainly would have gotten into trouble. Crate training is not cruel at all. Most dogs come to love their crates. In fact, our 6 month GSD uses Dakota's old crate and Dakota will still get in it. Sometimes they'll both get in it. Jackie will go in and lay down on her own, even when she doesn't have to be in it. It's definitely her room and her safe place.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Yikes, I do not understand then why my late female Kaycee never killed our cat?????

Crates are a great thing, my male loves his crate and his sisters crate. He stuffs himself in her crate with the door open and sleeps in there.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

from the research i have done seems czech dogs fit best

i want something that would make a good pet


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

why does he do that?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

exotica said:


> it is not fair to expose a really high prey drive dog to prey animals its like constantly putting cake in the face of an over weight person
> 
> or like putting cigs in the face of a smoker


Well that's just simply NOT true 

UNLESS

you are a puppy owner who gives no guidance, leadership and training to your puppy as it grows into a dog.

A huge help with that is using a crate, so I can see how you can have more issues if you refuse to use a great training aid like a crate. Yanking some training things out of our bag of tricks because we don't know how to use them.... means we are also then LIMITING the training we will be able to give our dogs. 

A well bred dog from a responsible breeder (many of whom already expose their puppies to cats prior to sending them off to their new homes) can come with good drives and not be EXPECTED to kill off all the small animals on the property.

I've yet to have a cat killed on my watch, and I've had cats for as long as I've had dogs. They are all best buds.

And while my dogs may want to chase other animal, having a great dog trainer and classes (not fumbling on by myself and then just giving up to say 'heck, guess drivey dogs can't be trained to do this, this and this....) is key to getting the dog you want. It takes TONS of time and training.

Much easier if you do get a calmer and more laid back dog. This may be easier to gauge with an older pup from a rescue. Specially if someone's done some of the hard work already using a crate and working with the dogs to train it.



> i was going to take the dog to training classes i found a personal protection club that trains mals for personal protection i wanted to start my dog there
> 
> i am going to pay for personal protection lessons


If you have a place you like that you will train with, I'd just join them to help for now. And use their suggestions and experience to find a dog for you.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

I'm not sure what the big deal is. If this guy had got on this site and said he was looking for a black GSD would everyone jump on him saying a sable is just as good? He stated a preference for a lower prey, high defense dog. 

Also I'm not sure everyone's scale of "high" prey drive is the same. A dog with truly high prey drive is going to be a pain in the *** around small animals (read prey). Sure you can train it but why? Why not do as he's doing and look for a dog that fits his needs.

BTW, when I think of high prey I think of these dogs. This is keys (not a rag or some squeeky ball) that this pup has never seen before. How long before you trust this dog unsupervised around ducks?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

rvadog said:


> why? Why not doashe's doing and look for a dog that fits his needs.
> 
> BTW, when I think of high prey I think of these dogs. This is keys (not a rag or some squeeky ball) that this pup has never seen before. How long before you trust this dog unsupervised around ducks?
> 
> YouTube - pink collar carlos x brook puppy.3gp


I think the thing is I agree with you.

I would NOT leave any pup alone unsupervised with ducks. Let alone one with high drive. I'd use a crate to control my puppy if I was not home and there were other pets in the house/yard.

And when I was home, I would train my pup with what was allowed and not.

I also agree that he probably would do fine with just a wonderful low drive dog, not sure how committed he is to PPD training. I know that there are definitely dogs out there with drives that are too much for me. That's why I won't look into getting them.

Not so much because I know all the livestock on my property would be dead. More because I know, for me, the level of training and responsibility for a dog of that level is TOO MUCH FOR ME. If I wasn't willing to put in the time needed for all levels of difficulty training a high drive pup would be (not just with the pets, but with alot of the general training) then it just shows me to go for a lower drive dog.

It's why we keep insisting he really know what a 'responsible' breeder is. Because a responsible breeder really looks for the best fit for their puppy with the level of knowledge, skill, ability of the new owner to make the best fit. So a novice handler shouldn't end up with a wackjob over the top crazed dog. And an advanced handler doesn't want a sofa slug if they want to reach the highest levels of training.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

For the record he's not asking for a low drive dog.

He's looking for one with a relatively low prey drive.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

rvadog said:


> For the record he's not asking for a low drive dog.
> 
> He's looking for one with a relatively low prey drive.


Even a dog with a relatively low prey drive can kill other animals without training....

He really has been giving good advice. He needs to start contacting good responsible trainers that feel they have pups that will work for his needs. 

I would think going to the training club he's attended would be a great start. I'm sure they could give him a place to start with breeders they recommend knowing his level of experience as well as their dogs.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

exotica said:


> i washoping for a dog with high defense and low prey drive


Recipe for disaster. A dog with low prey drive will be hard to get started in protection work, the easiest and most rewarding way to start off a young dog is usually by appealing to their prey drive. Then add defense later as they mature and understand the work. A dog that is out of balance, especially on the defense side is a big challenge for the novice and a frustrated handler leads to a frustrated dog. 
I don't think you've ever answered where you are. If you could elaborate a bit on your personal situation (married, single, kids, work all the time, blah blah blah) you might get some more helpful input. Also there might be a few people here that would know good solid breeders or trainers near your area.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

LOL Thats my Zoe in the video and yes she is a PITA who really would love to taste my cat, but is trained enough to not try in my presence. However, given the opportunity.....it would be quite bad,lol

I think if you work on prey drive from the beginning it can be curbed at least when you are looking, but some dogs can never be trusted around small animals alone- I have one.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting a dog with lower prey drive but the title about wanting a real GSD seems silly- is that opposed to a stuffed one or something?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I agree with rvadog, and I'm surprised to read the responses, to be honest. OP is doing exactly what a responsible puppy buyer has to do, i.e. figure out what he wants to see in his future dog and go from there. Also he understands that the right genetics is a foundation the training is built on.

OP, you may want to look into DDR lines. They are essentially what you are looking for, high drive dogs with good aggression, but not high prey drive (typically).


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

i am a single female with a good business from ontario i work part time as a model/dancer also work mostly from home


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> the title about wanting a real GSD seems silly- is that opposed to a stuffed one or something?



I would argue that it is the temperament that makes as much as or more than the looks. I would consider an aggressive, possessive lab that hates the water not a very good example of a Labrador Retriever.

Yet it seems people have no problem with a GSD that acts like a golden retriever or is scared of its shadow (one is as bad as the other). I have seen what most people would call good breeders breeding these Golden German Shepherds. Just because you OFA test, breed show titled dogs and screen possible homes doesn't make you a good breeder and I have a hard time considering those real GSD's.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

by real i meant fearless working line with really solid nerves aloof, suspicious, and civil but at the sametime a great pet i know it wont be easy to find


there is a mal/gsd breeder that works in the personal proteciton club near here but those dogs seem to driven and wild i dont think i can handle them


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

rvadog said:


> This is keys (not a rag or some squeeky ball) that this pup has never seen before. How long before you trust this dog unsupervised around ducks?


I'd be more worried about him stealing my car.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

One thing to keep in mind if you want a Personal Protection dog is that you are ALWAYS training and practicing with the dog. Their training never stops - just like police dogs.

If you train a dog to bite and then do NOT complete the training (WHEN to bite and when NOT to bite) - that is a recipe for disaster.

Do you truly need a Personal Protection dog? Would a large GSD that is trained to alert and bark on command be good enough?

When people say Personal Protection I think of dogs that don't hesitate to engage an intruder (bite first, ask questions later). I think of dogs that engage even when attacked (intruder punching, hitting and kicking dog). I think of dogs that engage even in the midst of gunfire.

To me it's like walking around with a loaded gun with the hammer cocked and my finger on the trigger.

My Shepherds job is to alert me to the fact that someone is messing around my house. If that noise doesn't scare off the would-be bad guy it still gives me plenty of time to get my gun and call 911.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> My Shepherds job is to alert me to the fact that someone is messing around my house. If that noise doesn't scare off the would-be bad guy it still gives me plenty of time to get my gun and call 911.


In the bath today when I heard footsteps on the porch. The two boxers run for the door acting like they are going to eat someone. Jax came into the bathroom and barked at me. I think she passed GSD Alarm 101 but failed PPD.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

OP, I am located in Ontario as well. If the 'trainer' of the mals and GSDs is who I think it is, I think you should turn tail and run. Seriously.
If I were you, I would visit a schH club near you. Yes, I know, their 'robots.' Whatever. The point is that most of those 'robots' go on to do PP work, exactly what you are wanting. It is possible through training to take a schH. III dog and switch him over. However, it takes the right trainer and dog to do so. I would agree with you. Most dogs in schH are not civil enough for PP work. But if you work with a breeder who breeds for it, schH would be a great foundation for you-if you can hack it. 
If you doubt your capability to handle a dog like the ones you saw, this is probably not for you.
Also, I think you had a scare due to your profession and this is a large part of you wanting a protection dog. Invest in a gun training course and get one instead. Unless you buy a dog titled in PP, you will be starting from a puppy. A puppy will not be ready for real PP work until he is at least 3 years old imo.

Edit: What Lauri said. 

(Except, I do not feel the same way about PP dogs being 'loaded guns'. A real fully trained PP dog is a fairly safe animal. However, I feel that people's first experiences with protection sports should be something along the lines of schH, ring, mondio, KNPV, etc. Because SO MANY things can go wrong when JQP thinks he can train PP dogs. Like my idiot neighbor with 2 pups under 1 year...with no training...who react at everything...and she calls them her PP dogs...*causes dent in head with the headdesking*

...back to our regular scheduled program. Sorry bout the OT rant!


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

the breed originally needed high prey to herd sheep, yep little wooly lambs, if they were killers they would not be very good at their jobs, while herding these flocks they may need to drive them to market and they were expected to ignore other dogs, cats, chickens etc and work. High prey drive is needed and then build on obedience, respect and a bond. 

Don't go out looking for the moon and being disappointed, slow down, do a bit more research. Talk to other trainers, breeders, even a few vets and rescue people, they will tell you the numbers of highly bred dogs dumped because someone thought they came out of the birth canal knowing how to behave in all situations and that training was too hard, time consuming and the dog just wasn't good enough, too friendly, vicious, spooky, aloof, uncaring etc. 

I don't think it maters what line of work you are in, I would suggest if you are looking for personal protection buy one already trained or buy a 2 yr old, that is the age it may be ready for serious training. Yes I'm sure lots can leap in and regale us with great 10 month olds who growl at every visitor, bark showing all teeth whkle in the car, etc. But I am talking a calm, relaxed dog you can take out in any social situation and have it not attacking/barking/hackling/etc, but one who walks beside you and doesn't react unless a real not dog perceived threat has arrived. A well bred, well trained very self assured obedient dog will turn off 99.9% of threats before you even know it, the last .1% will look for easier pickings. 

Good luck and be careful you don't get in over your head and add another poor dog to a shelter near you, most get there between 9-30 months


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Will you be taking this dog to work with you? My GSD has zero protection training, is 13 months, 90 lbs., and would most certainly bite an intruder....of course she would bite a guest too so definitely make sure the breeder you go through understands how to temp test and then start training immediately. I do bail bonds for a living and both of my dogs accompany me on night runs for my safety. I frequently carry large sums of money and definitely am not working closely with the cream of the crop if you know what I mean. I legally carry other means of protection as well, but honestly my GSD is more than enough to make people think twice without her having to do a thing. I also take her into the office occasionally especially if we have a disgruntled customer, but my family owns the business so her presence is accepted. If your working in the type of profession I imagine I assume there are bouncers within the club and a dog's presence may not be allowed. I don't live in Canada, but I know here dogs in strip clubs are no no's


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

hey 

no nothing bad happened to make me want a dog where i work we have big bad bouncers like you said that put the fear of god into people that might be "dangerous" 

just always wanted another german shepherd one that would be good at personal protection is always a plus 4 someone who lives on their own 


there are other breeds like mastiff type breeds dobermans and rotties but id prefer another shepehrd i dont know other breeds that well at all


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I know that I personally feel that just having well trained LOUD German Shepherd 'police' dogs is enough to give anyone pause. So they don't need the PPD or Sch training which is a very high level that needs to be kept up with.

Instead, I just have well trained socialized GSD's that are more than enough for my security.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have two full brothers (mostly Czech/DDR). Both high "prey." One is safe around small animals... with the other it is a constant battle.

However, the differences were obvious at 7-8 weeks of age, so a breeder with experience should be able to assist you.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

sorry i dont actually live alone i have aroomate but hes never home


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

gagsd can you tell me more about your dogs? how did they act as puppyies where u knew one would be good around small animals while the other one was not? how did they act?


my friend as a well trained german shepherd but does not matter he is still not safe with cats but he is still an amazing dog just you cant trust him totally with cats or small animals but other than that he is great

if i didnt do PP training and just did normal OB instead i would still like a dog from personal protection lines though is that okay? a dog that had what it takes to do PP but put into something else?


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

You could certainly get a pup from lines with proven work, (i.e. SchH titles, SAR titles, Obedience titles). The titles will prove temperament, biddability, etc. I have a female from SchH titled bloodlines, that I do AKC obedience with. She has the ability to excel at SchH if that was what we chose. She would do well in any dog sport because of her breeding. She is not over the top so much that she cant settle in the house. Would love to chase the neighbors cat, if I let her (thats where her training comes in). She is beside herself when I foster for pregnant cats. She absolutely loves playing with kittens. Gets along with all dogs (as long as the other dog is dog friendly). She has had no protection training, but will scare the bejeebers out of anyone that approaches the house. She will protect me without encouragement. Comes natural for her. She is suspicious, aloof with strangers, prey driven, settles fine in the house (not so much before she turned 3). I think she epitomizes what a true GSD is. Her confirmation is within the standard, dark eyes, dark pigmentation. There are a lot of breeders that breed dogs like this. I think there is even a 2 yo in a shelter that would fit into this category. You may find that a puppy is not what you need right now, but an adolescent with little training. There was a link to a company in a thread on here that sells completely trained GSD for PP starting around $25,000. That should give you an idea of the level of commitment and training these dogs need to be trained in PP. I think any dog that bonds with you and that you take to some training to build that bond, will fit the bill.

Oh, and my dog loves her crate. She has the run of the house, but will choose her crate to nap in. I dont think I've closed the door on the crate in 3 yrs, but she is in it every day. She is 4 1/2 now.


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## ZebsMommy (Dec 4, 2010)

Zeb has a very high prey drive, but he uses it to play with my kitten. He'll be laying on the floor dozing, she comes over and bops in on the head and runs away so he chases her and they run laps around the living room and kitchen. He has never "caught" her, because then the game ends. Give dogs a little bit more credit that that they will hurt anything that runs. That's just being ignorant, IMO.


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

opcorn:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

does it have to be a puppy? I agree with looking for a little bit older dog even a 'green' older puppy that has the potential to be what you want. 

My males father was a PP dog, and he was the biggest MUSH ever, but knew when it was work time.

My female right now, tho she is not PP trained, is a dog I feel safe with out in public, she is very aloof with strangers, watchful, I wouldn't say she has a high defense drive but again, I feel safe with her, I 'think' she wouldn't hesitate to 'go' for someone who was a threat, but I've never have put her to the test, hope I never have to.

At home, she is VERY social with ANYONE who comes thru the door/on the property, she is great with my cats, and other small animals. Not a huge prey drive but ALOT of play drive. 

It may be that a little bit older puppy that's green would suit your needs and go from there..Finding a breeder who can peg their dogs is key


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Lesley1905 said:


> opcorn:


Gimme some!!!!!opcorn:


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

ZebsMommy said:


> Zeb has a very high prey drive, but he uses it to play with my kitten.


I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that your dog has what I'd call low prey drive.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A dog CAN be high drive, and good with small animals. Prey drive should not overshadow a dog's ability to think and act.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Alright someone correct me if I'm wrong. 

Wouldn't a dog that's been trained for personal protection have to have great obedience skills? (STAY, WAIT etc. etc.) 
If that's true, regardless of how strong it's prey drive was, shouldn't you be able to call the dog off the chickens, ducks and cats, or train it to leave them alone?

I guess I'm wondering why someone would be able to train a dog to back off the bad guy but couldn't train the same dog to get away from the cat.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Good point Whiteshepherds!


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

You guys really don't get it?

If I wanted too I could train GSD to sit in a blind with me (quietly), run out and jump in the water on command, swim to the duck, pick it up (with a soft mouth, can't crush the duck) and bring it back to me. But why? Why not buy a Lab?

She wants a dog with low prey drive. Either you have a suggestion or you don't.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think everyone gets it, perhaps you are missing our point. 

The issue is she thinks a dog with a high prey drive is uncontrollable. And while I have fostered a dog who would kill a cat in a second without making a sound, a high prey drive does not ALWAYS equal cat/chicken/duck killing monster as she thinks.

And, any dog, regardless of prey drive is going to be iffy around chicken and ducks. That is pure instinct. Without specific training to not go after the poultry and the cat there is a high chance of a bad ending. 

The original posts really showed a lack of understanding, or a poor explanation of what she was looking for. In addition, her ideas of training didn't seem to be very well thought out. Or, once again, she was just having problems with explaining what she wanted.

The suggestions of looking for an older puppy or an adult dog from a reputable breeder is a very good suggestion for her. She is looking for something pretty specific. And yes, dogs with ScH and PPD training should have a much stronger obedience than an every day pet.

My understanding of drives is that there should be a good balance of them. I wouldn't necessarily look for a low drive dog, because as someone pointed out it could be very hard to train the dog for PPD, but a dog with a good balance of drives that isn't over the top in prey drive. If she were to talk to some good breeders, which is why she came here...to get recommendations on good breeders, then they should be able to explain to her how the drives will affect the dog and help her find a dog that is suitable for her.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Your understanding of drives is wrong.

*She doesn't want a "low drive dog".

*She wants a low prey drive dog with high defense. You think it is difficult to train one of these dogs in PPD? How many have you trained?

The thing is she came here asking for a very specific thing and very few people are helping her. 

If you were on a car forum and asked for suggestions for a mid-sized SUV and the only thing people said was that mini-van would be just as good (It has more space! It's cheaper! You really should think about a mini-van!) would you get annoyed?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, this isn't a car forum and I know next to nothing about cars so I find your analogy a bit ridiculous. Obviously, we are all stupid, have contributed nothing, and you have all the answers, so please help the OP find the dog she needs. I have better things to do than argue with you.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Well, here's a thought...can't she just get a low whatever kind of drive dog, bond with it really well, and voila - instant protector dog because he loves his mistress. If all she needs is a dog that will bark at strangers and ward off unwanted attention, her dog doesn't need to be trained in PP does he?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would go out and spend time around people working dogs especially in the different protection sports. This will aid you far more than coming to a message board and asking for breeder ideas. Once you have a feel for the types of dogs you like and maybe an idea of the lines, you may not even need to ask this question on a board. You will either have an idea about the breeders who produce these dogs or you will be able to just ask this board about a few specific breeders or dogs.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

There are scientific definations which we should apply,
First we need to define what drive is per se, Simplistically, drives are genetically built in (hard wired) urges that makes an animal to seek the core necessities for survival. (food, sex, safety....) The drive usually has two circuts,
1-Physical, like hunger caused by sugar fluctuations and other physiological changes and
2-Emotional or seeking, (like hunting which ia action necessary to be taken to satisfy a hunger) Which describes prey drive.

Or we see,
1- Physical (threat pain or potential pain or injury)
2-Emotional (aggression of the dog towards the source of the threat)

These drives are hard wired into the genetic makeup of the dog. It has been scientifically established that what the dog is going to target in prey or defense drive is a learned behavior.
We can in prey drive for example, teach the dog to target sleeves, burlap, a rabbit or a human, weather it be his arm, chest, leg etc
Similar could be said about defense drive.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

with training, socializing, and bonding you can have the dog you want.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> with training, socializing, and bonding you can have the dog you want.


What do you mean?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

rvadog said:


> She wants a low prey drive dog with high defense. You think it is difficult to train one of these dogs in PPD? How many have you trained?
> The thing is she came here asking for a very specific thing and very few people are helping her.


I think she made it sound like she believes a dog with high prey drive can't peacefully coexist with chickens, ducks and cats, and people were pointing out that her assumption was incorrect.

If she can find a dog with high defense and low prey drive yay for her, it's nice to get what you want in a puppy......but she may be limiting her options based on incorrect information.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

PPD training is nothing like basic training.
Anyone who considers it should ask themselves how much time and effort they are willing to devote to the dog and the training. For a person inexperienced with this type of training it is A LOT of time. It essentially becomes a lifestyle.
Other questions are how athletic the owner is: one should be able to control the dog through different phases of the training.
Can the OP live with scratches and bruises (maybe a little bias because of the photo in the avatar)?
It happens all too often that people with good intentions change their mind when they realize the level of commitment for PPD training - they usually end up with too much of a dog for a pet.
For most people living alone the appearance and the bark of the GSD is sufficient deterrent.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i mean with training, socializing and bonding the OP can train (with a trainer)
her dog to be a lap dog, a protector, pet/companion or whatever type dog she wants. 



rvadog said:


> What do you mean?





doggiedad said:


> with training, socializing, and bonding you can have the dog you want.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Hot topic thread I see.

Obviously the OP wants what she wants. I won't debate on the merit of high prey kills all animals. That is for another thread. Nothing wrong with her not liking crates. There are MANY people opposed to crating dogs, some on this very forum. This is just like a thread where someone wants a PP dog and everyone says "why do you want the? Do you know the liability?" Hey I am no one's parent and were grown if that is what you want then I can point you in the right direction.


With regards to what the OP wants......

I say an adult DDR (2 yr old & up) would be the best way to go. Someone else mentioned this. DDR dogs are know for their high defense and low prey drives. There are some good DDR breeders who can help you with this but the problem is that they may not have any adults.

I can certainly find you one and train them up, but of course you have to continue training where you are to keep the dog sharp. By getting an adult dog you know exactly what you are getting. I think a dog like the one you want will cost around $4-$5k. 

I have 2 dogs, a sport dog who is a puppy at 5 months old and a PPD who is 2 years old. My 2 yr old has little to no prey drive and I mean that in every sense. He is all defense. Some people can't handle or would want a dog like that. I love it!

He isn't the dog to play fetch as he don't chase a ball or anything. I train him 2-3x a week. He settles in the house and is relaxed. He only barks when necessary. He has no "out" command. He won't stop until whatever he has a hold on stops moving and is done with. I take that back...I can out him if I tell him enough but that is because of my voice as he is handler sensitive. I dont need hard corrections, just a simple word and if can be said softly and that is enough. I train him under gun fire, train against 2 man...3 man, car jackings, home invasion, night walkings in the neighborhood, everything. He likes it all just so he can get a bite. When he bites a sleeve he spits it out right where he got it and goes right back to the man. I also train him in a muzzle. 

He is a liability...**** yes. Do I mind...**** no! I got my 5 month old sport dog to impress chicks and play fetch and do PSA's with. MY PPD purpose is to seriously harm anyone that comes after me or comes into my home uninvited.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

ace just curious what breed of dog is your ppd?


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

exotica said:


> ace just curious what breed of dog is your ppd?


He is czech but is heavily linebred on a DDR dog

Here he is at home being nice.











Here he is being not so nice.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

wow nice your dog is the first german shepherd i have seen that is high defense and like no prey drive?

do you walk him? does he have a lot of energy? u said he wont chase balls what does he like to do ?


are you able to take him out into public around strangers? if not do you leave him at home?


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

exotica said:


> wow nice your dog is the first german shepherd i have seen that is high defense and like no prey drive?
> 
> do you walk him? does he have a lot of energy? u said he wont chase balls what does he like to do ?
> 
> ...


Yup he is like that and perfect for me. He is very aloof and pretty much stays "on" when we are out. At home he either goes to his crate and hangs out or follows me everywhere in the house if he feels like it.

Yes I walk him every other day. His energy level is high when I come home from work but he relaxes after 15 minutes. I walk him to get him out and then i train him 2-3x a week. Fun for the both of us. He just likes being around me and getting affection....along with training and getting a bite.

I take him everywhere i go if possible. I want him to be able to walk the street and be fine. I don't let people pet him. I get people stopping me all the time wanting to pet him and talk but I just say that he is in training and can't be petted.

When he is at home alone while I am at work, he has free reign of the house.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

what would happen if a stranger pets him?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> wow nice your dog is the first german shepherd i have seen that is high defense and like no prey drive?


Just curious here... You can tell that from one picture? Seriously?

If it were me looking for a dog to do PP with.. I would start visiting places that train for it, start talking face to face with actual people and seeing the different dogs for myself.. 

If you truly want a dog for PP~ either way your gonna have to get with a club that trains regularly so you can keep up with the dogs training.. So I would start looking for a place to train first and then get the dog.. Not the other way around..


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

exotica said:


> gagsd can you tell me more about your dogs? how did they act as puppyies where u knew one would be good around small animals while the other one was not? how did they act?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Both Ari and Anik are very driven dogs. Ari I trust out with small animals--- Anik, only while supervised.
> ...


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I don't let strangers pet my dog. There is no need for them to do so. They can look and that is it. Realize you want a PPD and not a friendly dog. I put my dog up when I have company over just because people do dumb stuff. Can I leave him out? Sure he will just sniff them and sit in his crate until they leave.

Again I dont want any issues so I put him up. I put my 5 month old up. Have to be responsible.

GAGSD...Anik sounds like my type of dog. You got a good one right there.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

G-burg said:


> Just curious here... You can tell that from one picture? Seriously?
> 
> If it were me looking for a dog to do PP with.. I would start visiting places that train for it, start talking face to face with actual people and seeing the different dogs for myself..
> 
> If you truly want a dog for PP~ either way your gonna have to get with a club that trains regularly so you can keep up with the dogs training.. So I would start looking for a place to train first and then get the dog.. Not the other way around..


I couldn't agree more with this. Have to find someone first who you will want to train with. That was the first thing I did when I started considering a PPD.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

Gburg? it wasnt me that made a claim the dog in the picture had no prey drive and high defense the owner who is here said it himself


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

after more research i do not think i want to train a dog in ppd the risk is too much

id still like a house dog that i could train in advance OB get him his CGC and train to do jobs around the house like maybe herd ducks?

I still want a really well bred dog though growing up we had a byb german shepherd this time id like one from really nice lines

i told my boss he actually said i can bring my dog to work if i wanted to or had to


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

At this point, have you considered a rescue? You may be able to find one, through a rescue, with low prey drive.

How many ducks do you have? Do you own your own home? Do you have a fenced area to separate the dog and ducks?


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

i have about 15 ducks yeah have a fenced in yard my ducks are free range and just spend a lot of time on their pond 

10 game fowl

5 cats 

yeah i own my own home and rent out a room 

i personally didnt want a rescue i have had rescue animals my whole life


a really good breeders dog would not end up in a rescue because the breeder would take that dog back if the owner couldnt care for it

good breeders make you sign a contract you cant re sell the dog and have to give it back if you cant care for it


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

AvaLaRue said:


> opcorn:


hahaha, my thoughts exactly


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If the person honors the contract, then the dog should not end up in a shelter.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> a really good breeders dog would not end up in a rescue because the breeder would take that dog back if the owner couldnt care for it
> 
> good breeders make you sign a contract you cant re sell the dog and have to give it back if you cant care for it


Right. Just like Police Dogs NEVER end up in shelters after they are retired.

I think you may really want to take a better look at some of the dogs that make it into rescue. I volunteered with Virginia German Shepherd Rescue when I lived in VA and we've seen Shepherds who had their "pink papers" from Germany and still wound up in rescue. One example - Virginia German Shepherd Rescue, Inc. Dogs I know of at least one person in VGSR who has a former police dog beside myself (my Mal, who is a shelter rescue). You can find some really nice, well-bred dogs in rescue.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

exotica said:


> after more research i do not think i want to train a dog in ppd the risk is too much
> 
> i told my boss he actually said i can bring my dog to work if i wanted to or had to


Glad that you checked and was honest with yourself and realized that it maybe too muchf ro you to handle. There are many who don't fully think it through.

That is great that you ahve a job where you can take yours to work. Wish mine was like that.

Good luck on your search!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I just placed a VERY nice retired police dog. His owners could not keep him due to financial hardship. This dog had served 8 years on a fairly large force as a dual purpose dog. Was IPWDA certified. He had a lovely titanium tooth, having left the original in a criminal's humerus. His bark would scare people silly.

Totally stable temperament, great with kids and any dog other than a dominant male. The home I found for him has 3 Chihuauhuas, a beagle, and kids. He previously lived with cats.
He is Czech lines, a son of Grim z Pohranicni straze.

btw- this dog reminds me very much of an older version of my Ari, described previously.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

gagsd said:


> I just placed a VERY nice retired police dog. His owners could not keep him due to financial hardship. This dog had served 8 years on a fairly large force as a dual purpose dog. Was IPWDA certified. He had a lovely titanium tooth, having left the original in a criminal's humerus. His bark would scare people silly.
> 
> Totally stable temperament, great with kids and any dog other than a dominant male. The home I found for him has 3 Chihuauhuas, a beagle, and kids. He previously lived with cats.
> He is Czech lines, a son of Grim z Pohranicni straze.
> ...


 
That is great news to hear!! Glad that you were able to find it a home for the rest of it's life.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My rescues have beaten the socks off of people's pedigreed dogs in competition. When I take my dog pound girl to obedience people remark what a shame we don't know where to get more like her. I have had great competition pure bred dogs from kill pounds. Actually often the best dogs end up there!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Samba, don't discount your handling skills with your dog pound girl! If not for you, she may not have reached her potential!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I rescued 3 dogs with pink papers. One of them placed very well as a young dog in the Sieger show. Very well known and very expensive kennel. No, they did not want him back. I also rescued one retired police dog that was to be gassed in a Michigan pound. He was an expensive import from Germany.


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## exotica (Dec 31, 2010)

health was another issue with a really good breeder it helps minimize all the health issues that gsd's can have 


i have about 5k in my account right now set aside to whever i get my dog


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

exotica said:


> health was another issue with a really good breeder it helps minimize all the health issues that gsd's can have


Buying a puppy from a really good breeder will help stack the deck in your favor in regards to health if you compare it to buying from a poor breeder or puppy mill. However, with a rescue dog, what you see is more or less what you get. With a rescue, you can have them checked out by your vet in regards to hips, elbows, eyes, digestion, and whatever else you want checked before you get close to the cost of purchasing a high-quality puppy.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> Just curious...what does a non real GSD look like?


When you look under the tail there is a label that says "Made in China"


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Catu said:


> When you look under the tail there is a label that says "Made in China"


:spittingcoffee:


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Catu said:


> When you look under the tail there is a label that says "Made in China"


:spittingcoffee:
That just made my night. 

.....off to check under some tails.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Mine says Made in Zimbabwe...:shrug:


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Mine says Made in Zimbabwe...:shrug:


Uh oh. You've got a cheap African counterfeit there.


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## Hundguy (Apr 30, 2003)

Catu said:


> When you look under the tail there is a label that says "Made in China"


 
Ahhhh, thank you Catu.. Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are.. This thread needed a little help.. :thumbup:


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

exotica said:


> health was another issue with a really good breeder it helps minimize all the health issues that gsd's can have
> 
> 
> i have about 5k in my account right now set aside to whever i get my dog


Send me the 5K and I'll protect you myself and stay away from the live animals....and if you want, I'll even sleep in the bed with you to make sure your extra safe.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ace952 said:


> Send me the 5K and I'll protect you myself and stay away from the live animals....and if you want, I'll even sleep in the bed with you to make sure your extra safe.


That is just wrong!

Canada has it good: model/dancers who work mostly from home have 5k in the bank for a dog. 

Here, engineers who work sixty to eighty hours a week at work are lucky to have 5k in the bank for a dog. 

I am going to go home and look under tails now, LOL!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Catu said:


> When you look under the tail there is a label that says "Made in China"


Hilarious!:rofl:

I cannot forget how my "dear baby", early into bitework, at 7 months or so, had fun with jumping up and nipping at the front protrusions on the female body (I doubt that the board will allow me to use the right word). It was summer and he he was quite into it. Got to love these dogs... :rofl:


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> Send me the 5K and I'll protect you myself and stay away from the live animals....and if you want, I'll even sleep in the bed with you to make sure your extra safe.


 
Dangerously close to sounding like a puppy mill right there.....


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Catu said:


> When you look under the tail there is a label that says "Made in China"


Just looked under my dog's tail and it said: Made in U.S.A.
I guess she's not a real GERMAN Shepherd Dog
:help:


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Dangerously close to sounding like a puppy mill right there.....


 
LOL!!


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