# Breeder May Have Gotten My Puppy's Color Wrong?



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Soo everbody knows a couple days ago I got Dakoda, my baby girl gsd. Her breeder said that she was sable, just like her brother. But looking at her now I think he may have been wrong. I think she looks like a black and silver more than sable. What do you guys think? I just don't want to be calling her the wrong color lol!
























http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-picture2480-smilin-dakoda-my-baby-girlll.jpg


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dokoda looks like an adorable black and tan, not a sable.
Do you have any pics of her littermates, or brother?
Sable pups have a stripe down the back, a black tailspot. There are differences in their darkness according to their lines.
















Then they darken at coat change, about 4 mos.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Not sure the difference between black and cream and black and silver, but i voted black and cream because that's what she is. Black and tan is a possibility. Definitely not a sable.

I'd take out the black and silver option since it's pretty much the same as black and cream.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I think black and silver is a bit more greyish tint to it than cream, or that's what it looks like to me. I do have a pic of her brother below, I know he was sable. But the breeder said she was too and she just doesn't look it to me lol. Her other littermates were all pure white.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Her brother is definitely a sable. I'm 99.9% sure she's not. I can't say 100% because anything is possible, but i think it's pretty safe to say she's a black/tan or black/cream.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I agree with you on that. The reason I put black & silver is because she has some grey/silver coloring where her tan is, too. And lots of silver speckling on the black fur around her stomach, neck, legs and face.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Are you taking the pictures with a cell phone? The pictures arent the best quality with the best lighting. Maybe you can provide some better quality pictures? From the ones you provided, i'm not seeing sable.

Look at the pictures onyx girl posted. That's what a silver sable puppy loves like. Your pup has the typical black coat with the cream paws. Typical for a black/tan or black/cream.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What is the sire & dams coloring? Do you have their pedigrees/ was this just a BYB type breeding?


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Ya I only have my cell phone camera sorry!! I would say backyard breeder type, she'd never been inside before I got her. Dad is 110 lb black and tan, mom is 90 lb pure white. Dad's mom is pure black, dad is sable. Mom's dam is pure white and her dad was black. The guy had 3 generations back at his home from both sides. Most of them were pure black or white, the dad was the only black and tan and his sire was the only adult sable. I'll try to get some better pics as soon as I get a camera lol. I don't think she's sable. At all! She's just a bit light to be black and TAN and the grey on her markings and face are throwing me off a bit. Lol, that's where I got silver from. I was also looking at this website http://www.kerstoneshepherds.net/colors/colors.htm to figure out her color.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So which dog is the one in the background that looks to be nursing pups? I thought that was the mother of the sable and your pup? Did the breeder have more than one litter on the ground?


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

The other nursing dog is one he was boarding for a friend who also breeds. Her owner picked her and her pups up at the same time I was there getting Dakoda. Hers are about a month younger than Koda.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Can a black and tan and a white even produce a sable puppy? Not too sure where her brother came from, but i'm thinking her brother really isnt her brother.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I'm not sure, I thought it possible because of the sable in the father's family.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would say more of the pups would be sable if the parents carry sable, sable is dominant. 
HMMM... hope someone that is strong in genetics will chime in on this....


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I'm confused. But oh well. I'm just glad I'm not the only one who thinks the breeder was wrong about her coloring. Maybe it has something to do with him boarding other shepherds?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Ehret German Shepherds - Canine Genetics this is a good chart, but doesn't list whites.

Took it from this thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/85882-gsd-color-coat-chart.html


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Hmm. Well he doesn't have any of the siblings of the parents, or any of his dogs besides the pups so I'm not sure how the rest came out. Is there any way for a female to have puppies from two different males? I know for a fact that Koda's father is the black and tan male, everything about her is him. She's pretty much a diluted version of him. But if sable's not possible between a white and a black and tan, maybe there was another male that also mated with her?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Is there any way for a female to have puppies from two different males?


Yes, a litter of puppies can have multiple/different fathers if the female bred with more than one dog.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Chicagocanine said:


> Yes, a litter of puppies can have multiple/different fathers if the female bred with more than one dog.


Maybe that's what happened then. Get a couple different daddys and end up with a bunch of white pups, a sable boy and my lil babygirl. Lol. Next shepherd I get is comin from a reputable breeder lol.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Chicagocanine said:


> Yes, a litter of puppies can have multiple/different fathers if the female bred with more than one dog.


Really?!? I did not know that.

How is that even possible? So a female can get pregnant by two dogs at once and have the genetics of both fathers with the same litter?


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

It would make sense. I guess the sperm of both males makes it to different eggs so it would be possible. It explains Koda's family and brother lol.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> It would make sense. I guess the sperm of both males makes it to different eggs so it would be possible. It explains Koda's family and brother lol.


Even if that is possible, i wouldnt bank on it.

Backyard breeder + mutiple dogs + multiple litters + multiple moms nursing is not a good combination. I guess anything is possible after hearing a litter can have two different sires, but i'm guessing something else is going on here. This is what happens when you buy from backyard breeders.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I don't really mind about pedigree, she's not for breeding and if it is a byb I'm just glad she's out of that place. But all the dogs there were purebred shepherds, so I know she's pure. I'm just glad to have my girl. Only thing I was wondering is what color everybody else thought she looked. When I get my next shepherd (once I'm in my own house and have a nice job and all) I'm getting one from a reputable breeder, but her main job is just to be my best friend. She's gettin spayed soon as she's old enough lol. I'm not complaining at all about it, just curious what color she really is. My dad is reporting the guy right now to have him checked out, but personally I'm just glad to have Koda and I don't really care what her family is (though they all do need out of that place if he is a byb). Just wantin to figure out her real color, which I'm thinkin is black and cream or black and silver.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Just because he's a backyard breeder doesn't mean the dogs are living in bad conditions. They might be living like kings and queens for all i know. You'd know better than us since you were there. Did they show you where they sleep and all that stuff? Did you get a tour of the house?

A backyard breeder is someone who just breeds two dogs without any health testing or anything. They just find two purebred dogs and breed them to produce purebred pups. The dogs could be sick with cancer or they could be perfectly healthy, a backyard breeder probably wouldnt know or wouldnt care as long as theyre producing purebred puppies they can make money off of.

A reputable breeder will only breed the best of the best. They health test. They title. They breed within standard. They breed to not only produce the best puppies, but to also better the breed.

Just because someone is a backyard breeder, doesnt mean they're doing anything against the law. It's just not someone i'd recommend anyone to buy a puppy from. 

Now a puppy mill - now that's a different story.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Soo everbody knows a couple days ago I got Dakoda, my baby girl gsd. Her breeder said that she was sable, just like her brother. But looking at her now I think he may have been wrong. I think she looks like a black and silver more than sable. What do you guys think? I just don't want to be calling her the wrong color lol!



This pup is NOT a sable. It is a black/tan (or could be accurately registered silver or cream depending on the actual hue of the tan pigment). But definitely not a sable.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Not a sable, at all.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Don't see any pics??
Where can I find pics of the puppy?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Pictures arent there anymore. Must have been taken down for whatever reason.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How odd is that, usually a mod or admin would have an edit status or edit reason on the post, these pics have just poofed!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Lucy Dog said:


> Really?!? I did not know that.
> 
> How is that even possible? So a female can get pregnant by two dogs at once and have the genetics of both fathers with the same litter?


Yep, if the female breeds with more than one male, the puppies in the litter can have different fathers. The eggs are released over a period of time rather than simultaneously so some of the eggs can be fertilized by one male and others by another male. 

The AKC even has a special registration form for it:
Multiple-Sired Litter Registration
http://www.akc.org/dna/multisire.cfm


Actually that can even happen with humans, although it's much rarer for obvious reasons. 
Here is an example:
Mother Gives Birth To Twins With Different Fathers, US


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My cat had two males sire her litter, some were just like my recently fixed male and others were completely different! Structure and color was the clue. It was her first heat, and I totally regretted not getting her spayed sooner.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> My cat had two males sire her litter, some were just like my recently fixed male and others were completely different! Structure and color was the clue. It was her first heat, and I totally regretted not getting her spayed sooner.


That is even more common in cats since they commonly will mate with multiple males, and ovulate multiple times during the mating period (the act of mating stimulates ovulation.) This is also why it is not uncommon for male cats to kill kittens if there is another male in the area, because there is a good chance the kittens may not carry his genetic material.
Cats can also go into heat while pregnant and carry two litters at different stages of development.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

A white can sire a sable puppy, because white is a masking gene...not a regular genetic color. So if the grandfather was a sable...the sire could be genetically sable underneath the white mask. 

Black and Tan is the color regardless of the richness of the tan pigment. The differing variations- Silver, Cream, Tan, and Red are all just differing variations which are pretty subjective and open to interpretation. Silver from what I have seen is usually pretty much white. 

Consider these puppies. The one is a sable with what I would consider to be more of a red tan pigment. The other is a Black and Tan with lighter tan pigment.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

The only bad thing about the conditions the dogs were kept in were the fact that they were all outside, a couple were skinny and were a bit crowded. For the most part they were ok. And I don't know what happened to the pics. They're still showing up for me.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Would you mind...trying to attach one again??


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Sure... here's another one. I changed the albums a bit, maybe that had something to do with it.
























Sorry about the poor quality!! My lab mix broke my camera a while back and my phone is where I take all my pics. LOL!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

THANKS!
Cute puppy!
But I will also agree that the puppy is not sable colored....
I would say that the puppy is black & cream/black & tan.
Best wishes! and congrats!
Robin


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Black and tan/black and cream... very hard to tell depending on the camera's color settings. Not a sable, but great looking pup!!


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Thanks Robin!!! . Koda says thank you too lol. I'm thinking black and cream (which apparently is just a variation of black and tan lol), because it's such a pale tan in person. I knew I wasn't crazy for not believing she's sable! Thanks everybody LOL! And thank you Relayer . 

I know the coloring is HORRIBLE. My avatar and the pic. of her eating show her coloring the best. Gotta get a camera!! Maybe I'll have my friend use hers on our playdate tomorrow. Lol.


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## acillaton (Jun 17, 2010)

It is still puppy color. I think you will be more sure when she will grow up :fingerscrossed:


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