# Any one got any comments on this trainer?



## allieg

I am in search of a new trainer for Athena's aggression towards dogs.One of the members here gave me this guys name and I was wondering if anyone else knows of him.I want to get it right this time.It isn't fair to Athena to not find some one who can help us.With winter coming I need to get a person who can work with us closer so we don't have to start over in the spring.His name is Ken Murphy and he is opening up a new place close to me.

http://www.necanineacademy.com 

Thanks for any advice on him.I want good and bad but please PM the bad if mods won't like it out in the open. Any other trainer suggestions is appreciated also.


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## Lauri & The Gang

I would go watch some of the training he does and see what YOU think.


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## allieg

He's having an open house thing sat for his grand opening so I think I'll go check that out. Did you look at the web site? Was there anything you saw that you didn't like?


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## allieg

Here is another one I was referred to.
http://www.assertivek9.com/index.php?p=Assertive

Here is another.I don't know how far we are talking to travel but the person who told me about her says it's worth the trip.
http://www.vangoghkennels.com/index.shtml


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## Smithie86

http://www.vangoghkennels.com/index.shtml 

Major recommendation!


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86http://www.vangoghkennels.com/index.shtml
> 
> Major recommendation!


Second that!


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## allieg

I knew you would all say her. Anyone know where in MA she is? I can't find an address. I'm sure she is at least an hour and a half away from me.


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## allieg

Well of course she is out...I just got an email and this is what she said.

Hi Allie,



I just checked where *******, NH is and it would take me about 2 hours (100 miles) to get to your house which is a bit too far for me, respectively I would have to charge too much money for a visit like that (my normal rate for an aggression evaluation is between 100 and 150 Dollars but that is for fairly local cases !!). I do not know anybody out there that I could refer you to and especially in cases of aggression issues I need to make a home visit because I need to see the dog in the home environment and the home set up to evaluate the best possible way to approach the problem.



I am sorry, I would have liked to help.



Claudia


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## allieg

I have an appt with New England Canine Academy next Wed. He will evaluate both of us and tell me his suggestions. He is going to have her there with other dogs to work on her.We may get together as much as twice a week.How do you pick the right person? I have emails into 2 or 3 others so I hope when I go to him I'll have something to compare him too.Is your gut instinct enough? I'm usually a good judge of character. This is more difficult then picking a DR for the kids.... 
Since everyone liked Claudia can you give me an idea of her methods so I know what to look for in these other ones.


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## DancingCavy

Your best bet is to watch a trainer while they're training. That way you can see both how they interact with their clients and how they train their dogs. Ultimately, it's up to you to decide whether you're comfortable with their methods. I would be sure to specifically ask any trainer you're interviewing whether they have experience with fear aggressive dogs since that's what you're working with.


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## allieg

This one breeds and trains GSD.He ran a rescue for 10 yrs and rehabilitated all but 2 pitbulls that came in.All this is his words I haven't tried to verify it yet.I know he breeds and trains haven't verified the rescue info.
Thanks for the advice.


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## CainGSD

The link for the second training facility sounded a lot like the Cesar Milan theory. I am personally not a fan of C. Milan's methods. Based solely on the website I'd give the first facility a closer look.


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## littledmc17

Allie What happened with the Trainer you were using???
did you give up on him????


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## allieg

First facility as in NE Canine or Assertive K9? I have evaluations with both places next week. They are both going to use a dog in the eval which no one else has.
Assertive says he is somewhere in between,he isn't a soft trainer but he isn't a hard core one.They get praise when behaving and correction when not.
Thanks for your advice Nora.


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## allieg

> Originally Posted By: littledmcAllie What happened with the Trainer you were using???
> did you give up on him????


Yup, no matter what I say we need help on, he doesn't want to meet up and help.I am having a hard time encountering dogs in the area and he isn't willing to use his like he said would happen when we first talked.Why is my money so different then the next guys???? Not like he wouldn't get paid to meet and help me train her.So the search is on...Got to get a plan so winter doesn't set us back with her training.


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## SunCzarina

I'd go to the open house/BBQ thing. This would be a good time to meet dogs this guy has helped train. 

I haven't seen too much about what issues you're having with her. Is it all still dog agression/reativity? There's lots of members here who've dealt with that. 

I've had 7 shepherds including Otto, never thought a personal trainer was necessary. Find a group and get in it. You're right you don't want winter to set you back but the question remains, what has Athena been doing all summer?


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## littledmc17

No dog is perfect I mean Brady can be a butt head at times believe me I think you should meet up with us and we may be able to help you too and give you pointers 

Whatever you do do NOT send her away you need to be involved with the training and keep up with it

I agree go see the trainers and their dogs, but every dog is different


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## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: littledmcNo dog is perfect I mean Brady can be a butt head at times believe me I think you should meet up with us and we may be able to help you too and give you pointers


and some sympathy. Otto is Brother Love but he is completely nuts. He can be perfect in the obedience ring, get him on the street and you'll see my work boots are NOT a fashion statement. He's nice with other dogs though, has to be, he's been raised by the Bad Moon Rising.


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## allieg

She is all dog reactive/aggressive. I have been getting her out as much as I can.If I can't get into town I walk her on this road.Evidently during the times I can get into town no on is out with there dogs.She is almost perfect walking by the neighbors dog pen. Any chance I see someone walk by with a dog I either sit her in the doorway and work her or take her outside so the way back through we get the chance to do work.I know every time someone walks with a dog because the neighbors dogs are obnoxious and bark there head off which then gets my 2 going.Very annoying.
I have been working her.

Yes Jenn, lots have dealt with my issue but they are all doing the soft route so haven't been to helpful.I have read the books they suggest and try the training.


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## SunCzarina

It takes time and patience. A 16 month old working line GSD needs patience consistencey and an occasion pop on the prong collar.

I agree, the soft route doesn't always work. I combine the clicker sweet talk with Otto's prong collar. He listens he gets clicked and called brother love. Misbehave, I'll pop that prong. He wears the prong only when we're off property becuase that's the only place we have issues. He's getting it. He's not perfect but he's better than Moon was at his age.

have you read the monks of new skete books? Especially 'how to be your dog's best friend'. Ignore the alpha roll part and the rest of it's pretty good. What about NILIF, have you been practicing that with Athena? You don't have to do it with the little dog if her behavior is good.


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## allieg

Oh she gets the pop when she is a butthead,I have no problem with that.
I just need to get a handle on it NOW before it is more ingrained in her to act up with other dogs. Once I get her to tolerate dogs I plan on getting into group classes. There is no way anyone would let her into a class with the way she acts now.
I do the NILF pretty much all the time.I don't just hand her food she has to do something for it,She doesn't just go out she has to sit and stay till I say OK.I haven't read that book yet.I'll try to get it this week.
I need physical guidance on this problem,not just someone saying do this and that.


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## jencarr

I agree Allie- It is one thing to be told what to try & another to actually do it. Having a personal trainer really helped me with the timing of my corrections with the prong & also how to fit the collar correctly & how to do the correction properly. It takes some practice -especially when in the heat of the moment when your dog is reacting to another dog! Having a trainer that was totally focused on me & Jackson really helped & I was able to see what was possible. Gave me a lot of confidence.
The assertive K-9 one looks like a good one to check out. The first one you listed - New England - didn't say much about dealing with aggression.
I think you are on the right track by checking out a bunch.


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## SunCzarina

What does she do when she sees a dog who isn't barking or reacting to her?

What does she do if another dog reacts to her?

I remember last spring, she couldn't be around any other dogs so maybe you're making a little progress if she can sit in the doorway and watch another dog go by HER house. Progress that she can ignore the neighbors dog almost!

If she can see another dog and not react unless that dog is reacting, you shouldn't have trouble with her in class. Yeah it might be embarrassing but just try to laugh it off and say 'This is why we're here!' Dog people get it.

Otto was the class clown, the distraction, the annoying brat when he first started taking classes with competition level dogs. The trainer's Mals smirked at him like look at that little fool. Now, he knows he can't react becuase I'm not having that. I'm proud to say he did not react when a loose dog chased us down the beach a few weeks ago!

Morgan used to be edgy around other dogs. Took a lot of Leave it before she could walk past another dog with out sniping at it. Now, if another dog barks at her and I didn't already say leave it, she'll bark back. It's not fast and furious barking, it's more Woof (I see you) or Woof Woof (How you doin'). Another dog walking by the hosue, she's barking her head off. She'll leave it if I tell her but she's still going to bark if I don't intervene.


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## allieg

If the dog is quiet and far enough away she is on alert but behaves.If the dog gets close she will hackle and lunge and possibly bark.When the dog is moving and close she is hackling,barking and lunging.There is no tail wagging or play bowing during any of these situations.If she only barked I wouldn't be concerned,it's a lot more than that.
I can most times walk her past the neighbors house with out her reacting to seeing there dogs.I guess her dogs are OK with us because I can walk by with the dogs and they don't react but anyone else walks with a dog and they are ballistic.
I know the classes I took were horrible on her.She lashed out all through it.The confusion and noise stressed her out.


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## littledmc17

Then you need to put her in a sit stay let the other dog go by 
praise her and then continue on 
That is what I do to Brady and it works 
No dog is perfect and they have bad days 
you have to work with her constantly everyday any free moment you have. 

I trained with Brady for 2 years before work at lunch and after work
and to this day still do!! Meet up with others and work with him on that too. she needs to be around other dogs to show her they aren't going to hurt her or you and you have to be relaxed too


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## Strana1

I highly recommend my trainer, she is in Derry NH and is very good with aggressive dogs. Her name is Julia McDounough here is her website http://www.fortunatek9.com Also we are going to be at Pawsfest in Derry, this Saturday, September 19 and we will be doing 2 obediance demos and I think 1 protection demo. I started with Julia about 10 years ago when I started having issues with my old male. 

She does real life training and the Advanced class I am in is nicknamed the "Ruff Crowd" because of the number of aggressive & reactive dogs that are there that were kicked out of other programs. She also has some videos posted you you can watch her teach. If you want any other information feel free to PM me.

If you call her tell her Dawn w/ Saber sent you.


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## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: AllieGIf the dog is quiet and far enough away she is on alert but behaves.


this is progress from where she was at this spring, right? Praise her silly when she does the right thing!



> Quote:If the dog gets close she will hackle and lunge and possibly bark.When the dog is moving and close she is hackling,barking and lunging.There is no tail wagging or play bowing during any of these situations.If she only barked I wouldn't be concerned,it's a lot more than that.


Don't put her in that situation. Sounds like she's scared and warning the other dog to stay away. Try what Dawn said - I've seen her do it with Brady - she gets him out of the other dog's path and puts him in a sit. The other dog moves off, she praises him and walks on.



> Quote:I know the classes I took were horrible on her.She lashed out all through it.The confusion and noise stressed her out.


it was a petsmart class right? I've heard those are hit and miss - mostly miss. Good for babies but not older pups. I don't like their setup at the one by us - it's apx a 10 x 10 ring and the dogs are way too close.

Do you have anywhere that has a drop in class? Maybe you could go just for social hour, talk to the trainers? Competition level dogs are likely to behave better - not bark at her and even if they do, the handler will warn you first so you can get Athena to compose herself.


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## littledmc17

> Quote:If the dog gets close she will hackle and lunge and possibly bark.When the dog is moving and close she is hackling,barking and lunging.There is no tail wagging or play bowing during any of these situations.If she only barked I wouldn't be concerned,it's a lot more than that.


Don't put her in that situation. Sounds like she's scared and warning the other dog to stay away. Try what Dawn said - I've seen her do it with Brady - she gets him out of the other dog's path and puts him in a sit. The other dog moves off, she praises him and walks on.


> Funny thing is when I meet up with my friends from the GSRNE and their dogs they do the *SAME *exact thing
> 
> Because we don't know the other dogs and we don't want anything happening to our babies


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## littledmc17

> Quote:If the dog gets close she will hackle and lunge and possibly bark.When the dog is moving and close she is hackling,barking and lunging.There is no tail wagging or play bowing during any of these situations.If she only barked I wouldn't be concerned,it's a lot more than that.





> Quote:
> Don't put her in that situation. Sounds like she's scared and warning the other dog to stay away. Try what Dawn said - I've seen her do it with Brady - she gets him out of the other dog's path and puts him in a sit. The other dog moves off, she praises him and walks on.


Funny thing is when I meet up with my friends from the GSRNE and their dogs they do the *SAME *exact thing

Because we don't know the other dogs and we don't want anything happening to our babies


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## allieg

No it wasn't a petsmart class it was by a GSD breeder/trainer.Yes IMO it was too small an area for all the dogs she had there.


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## CainGSD

Hi Allie,

I would give NE Canine more consideration. The assertive canine website made me think of the Cesar Milan method of training. I would definitely observe whichever trainer you decide to work with.

Personally, I need to have an exercise explained to me and often also need to be hands on shown what it is that the trainer wants me to do. My obedience coach often will have me perform an exercise without the dog so that I can feel what it should feel like before trying it with the dog. Sounds silly but allows me to be instinctive in reacting since I have gone through the steps prior. So if that may help to feel more comfortable don't be shy about asking the instructor to show you. I was at a seminar with a very well known obedience coach and she handed my dog off to another seminar attendee and said okay....I am the dog and this is what I want you to do.......I was so embarrassed at first but it truly helped me.

Allie, the other piece of advice I have for you is to remember that you have Athena's best interest at heart. If while you are searching for a trainer you come across someone whose methods make you uncomfortable, please trust your gut. It sounds like you have good intuitions and have made some good progress already.


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## allieg

Thanks Nora,
Talking with Jim from assertive I don't get that feeling but I may be wrong.He seems like he will praise when accomplished and correct when being a butthead.He will use food or toy for reward,it all depends on the dog. I have the eval with him on Tuesday.
I need the one on one.I have been doing it on my own and it isn't working.It isn't fair to Athena to not do all I can.I can't take the chance that I am making her act this way because I don't know how to handle the situation.I also can't wait and see how it plays out with how it's been going.I refuse to post on here in a year that I had to rehome/PTS or just plain gave up on her because I didn't try a personal ob trainer for her.I can't get the socializing I need to get her past this on my own.If one of these guys says she is more than welcome to do a group class we'll do it.If I am correct they both incorporate a group class into the training and or use there dogs and do training exercises.
Thanks again,I will use my gut instinct and how she reacts to them to make my decision.


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## debbiebrown

i agree with using your gut on trainers........some believe in the doggie day care theory, some have different thinking all together. you know your dog and your own intuitio. to succeed you need to be positive about what your doing.......

i haven't read all your posts on Athena's issues, but did see that she's dog aggressive. because i also have a female from those lines i will say reactive can sometimes be confused with true aggression issues. and my female is reactive, not that that wouldn't lead to aggressive tendancies, but i have had several trainers and thats pretty much the consensus.

i think if a dog has reactive issues, teaching self control, setting things up for that is the key........but i don't know exactly what Athena's aggression really stems from, just know that line seems to have reactive issues.

debbie

Sami AKA Gino Von Rokanhaus (the agility guy)
Neka Von Hena C (the party girl)
Toby Von Kieser ( the all round allsport)

Lucy Von Kitty (the tiger princess)


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## allieg

I have decided to go with Jim from assertive K9.His evaluation went well.His methods are what I am looking for.Not CM type.We had his dog and Athena calmly laying with in feet of each other while we talked.Athena even stayed calm while he had his dog playing ball,she was more interested in him or the ball then his dog running back and forth.
We also went to Ken for an evaluation but decided with lots of input from others to wait on his method.He wanted to automatically do remote collar training.As some said if I go his route then I have no where else to go if it doesn't work.
They were both going to work one on one with us,Ken was going to concentrate on the aggression and Jim is a whole package deal of OB and the aggression.I liked both guys so it was a matter of methods.
I also have an invite for a playgroup type thing once she is rehabbed so to speak.The Sir's owner hooked me up with that trainer.

Debbie,
Her issues seem to be a genetic thing.Ken said the only way she would be a different dog is if she has grown up in a big pack and been put in her place as a young one. Jim also labeled her reactive more than aggressive.


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## debbiebrown

i wish you the best of luck Allie, its going to be alot of work an patience, believe me i hear ya, i am still on top of Neka's issues every day and she's 4 years old. i figured it was a reactive thing seems to go along with alot of those dogs. unfortunately, they have the mentality "act before thinking" it has helped alot Neka having play sessions, unfortunately we have all mild doggie friends, which is good, but bad because none of them will put her in her place. although withoutexpert supervision i don't want to expose her to more assertive dogs. she is in classes and has been since 12 weeks old. the good thing about her is that she is so obsessed with her frisbee or whatever your playing with he total focus is on that, and she could care less what else is around. this has helped us de-sensatize her. but, its one of those things that keeps sneaking up if you slack off. working on it and around other dogs will definitely help, you will have to constantly expose her to dogs probably for the rest of her life in order for things to go well. but, one step at a time.....determination and alot of patience and alot of hard work ahead of you...........

debbie


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## JakodaCD OA

also wishing you good luck with this trainer, he sounds GOOD already if he had athena and his dog laying quietly in close proximity! 

I agree with debbie tho, and know you'll do right by athena !

PLEASE keep us updated, I love reading your obedience tails))


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## allieg

Debbie,
That's what I am expecting.I know it is going to be a long road and we'll take it one dog at a time.I'm glad I got the offer for the play group because with winters I didn't know what I was going to do.She is trying to get an indoor place set up so she can keep up with the dog she has rehabbed.If I get her to ignore the dogs there is a place that has indoor agility that I'll get her into if all else fails for setting up dog meetings.

Diane,
Not much training adventures lately but this might make you laugh. Both dogs took down a chipmunk the cats had left behind.My cats like the thrill of the chase but for the most part let the animals go.Well the dogs went out and hunted down this poor scared critter.When I brought the dogs in it was alive and fighting them like heck. I thought these dogs were herding dogs not hunting......


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## debbiebrown

Allie,
Agility can be a great way to learn self control, but i would start slow with maybe a puppy agility or something that is not fast paced to begin with. seeing dogs run the agility course is very exciting for the dogs waiting their turn, so you would have to ease into that. i actually had that problem with my 1 1/2 year old recently in agility. he would come all unglued when they dogs were going through the course, especially with certain dogs. the trainer helped me with that. although this 1 1/2 year old (sam) is really not a reactive dog. its just an exciting thing for them seeing the prey running etc. but with the right help, it can really build their confidence and they can learn to have self control. With Neka, again if i had her frisbee with me, she would care less about the dogs running around in agility. so, toys can help if your dog is toy motivated, if not there are other positive methods. unfortunately some people remove thier dogs from temptations believe it or not which is only hurting them and they will never learn how to behave with others. alot of times with young dogs its teaching them whats appropriate and whats not......
any activity you can get your dog into is a plus. tracking is another activity that kind of eases a reactive dog into being in an inviroment with other dogs, but not at close proximity, thats a good way to kind of introduce other dogs being around but ignoring them. tracking builds confidence and the dog is really working on its own. so, all these things would be very benificial. i would almost say tracking first, maybe more low keyed OB classes first then agility, unless you can have private agility or a very small class to start with.

debbie


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## JakodaCD OA

allie,,ahhh they have turned into hunters instead of herders! LOL..

I totally agree with debbie, 

Masi can be reactive at times when on leash, she actually ignores other dogs for the most part and people, but tends to react (most likely in defense mode), IF another dog say, barks at her first, sooo I do somewhat debbie does with Neka..

Masi is a frisbee freak, you could set off an atom bomb next her and she would ignore it if her frisbee was around...Some dogs aren't as obsessed with say, food or toys, like neka and masi seem to be, but it's definately something we take advantage of ))

And I also agree with what she said about not removing them from certain temptations as they will never learn to "deal" with it.

I take Masi everywhere, today was a good example, I hadn't been to an agility trial in quite some time, so we went, it was at a horse stable, lots of dogs, lots of noise, some not so smart dog owners), walked the grounds, absolutely no problems, walked in the barn where it was pretty tight quarters, no problems. 

If I "think" something is making her uncomfortable I give a good "leave it", and continue on,,I've found with the two female working line dogs I"ve had,,a simple "cut it out" just doesn't cut it, when I say it, I mean it, 

I am alll for positive training, and I'm aware of alot of the 'catch 22's with correcting certain behaviors, but some of these dogs need a correction, and so far it hasn't backfired on me...

Ok I'm getting off the track here, wish you were closer I would help ya out with the little beast ))


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## allieg

I wish she was toy motivated. I did buy 2 toys to try out on her.I'll only use them for focusing.She likes the Cuz chicken better than the wubba tug toy.She refuses to tug with a human. I'll have to look into the tracking and agility.I know the old trainer did the private but I am trying to not deal with him since I feel he let us down.If he didn't want my money for helping us on her dog problem than he isn't going to get it on something easy....
Also I had been keeping her out of those places because the trainer suggested I didn't force her to do it.I did go to a concert in the park one night with her and for the most part she did behave herself as long as they stayed far enough away.He also didn't want us sitting in the waiting room at the vet he wanted us to use the private entrance.I went against him on her one visit this summer and we did fine.It was dealing with the vet that didn't go so well..She was being bashful and wanted to hide instead of the vet looking her over and giving her her vaccine.I take her for rides with me but haven't done the pet store thing since winter but will be doing it soon.I feel like I have better control over her now,I didn't in the spring.
Thanks for all the advice.


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## debbiebrown

are you or have you done the OB classes with her? i appologize if you already posted about that, i haven't read all your threads about this.

there is no better place than a class with a good trainer to deal with these issues at hand. correcting behaviors when they happen and positive rewards. we spend to much time correcting negative behaviors and not enough time praising for good behaviors, and if she is like my dogs they do understand happy positive praises and respond well to it.

i would agree about the vets office just because until you get a handle on things, there are to many people/dogs coming in and out of there in a close proximity. might be overwhelming.

sounds like she is a bit nervy, you said she hides in the vets? how is she with other people?

as i said confidence building comes from you and your dog doing a fun activity together, both learning as you go along......i would look into the agility, tracking, or any class that you get a good feeling about. go observe some classes you think you might like. talk to the trainer tell them the issues at hand, what your goals are with her etc. once you get into it you will be surprised at the progress you can make. again, i am speaking from experience because i have had a few really quirky nervy dogs, all of which have made great progress with the things i mentioned, if i had not proceeded with training these dogs would have been a huge liability, turned into pretty trustworthy dogs.

debbie


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## JakodaCD OA

Allie it DOES sound like you have better control, and you know what her triggers are so your better prepared..

Maybe you could do some Fun tracking in the calm atmosphere of your own yard,,there was a thread where someone was asking about starting tracking, that had some good basics on starting tracking..then move it out to a park or somethiing..

My aussie was one of those non motivated dogs, of course I didn't have social problems with her,,except she was TOOOO social LOL..but she wouldn't tug if her life depended on it,,chase a toy, or anything,,she just likes chasing the other dogs ! LOL..so I know how that goes..

ANd hey, Masi is NOT a good patient at the vets,,the waiting room is fine,,but the vet visits aren't..IF I don't go in with her, she is 100% better, but I hate doing that,,She's the first one I"ve ever had that really dislikes my vet or most likely the experience(

Hang in there, Athena is young, and these dogs love to push our buttons and make us work just as hard as they do))


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## allieg

Debbie,
Had it been my old vet I wouldn't have taken her in.That office is way too close proximity.The new vet has a big waiting room with a divider so we were able to hide in a way from the one dog there.Plus they have 2 in and out so whether we were weighing her or waiting I had a door to take her out of at each end of it.
We did do a basic OB class in the winter and that is when I knew we had a real problem.It was miserable for both of us.Too many dogs in too close an area.Plus there were 2 barkers and that aggravates her nerves.We'll find a class that is right for us.I do have another connection an hour plus away that holds a ruff crowd class Sundays so we can always do that once she graduates from this guy.One of the members here referred us to the facility.

The vet visit was strange.She has always gone in being all happy go lucky but this time she was all shy and wanted nothing to do with the woman.I think it's another fase she is going through.She was iffy with the trainers.I took her to get my truck inspected and she has seen the mechanic before but she was all shy.When he got down to her level to put my stickers on my plate she went to him and was OK with him.Today a friend that she hasn't seen since last year this time came over and she was all over him.I'm not sure if it was him or because she was at home.

We'll get through it.It may not end picture perfect but we'll deal no matter how it ends.She's here to stay till the rainbow bridge needs her in many many more years.She's my buddy for life..


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## debbiebrown

how old is she? they do go through some weird phases, some more than others........

it sounds like your commited, so i have no doubt it will work itself out with you continueing her social stuff, getting good trainers, classes etc.

no doubt there will be more frustrating timess, but there will also be times when you see great progress, i know for a while with mine it was three steps forward two back, then everything comes full circle.......

keep us posted......

deb


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## allieg

She is 17 months old today actually.


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## debbiebrown

well the ddr lines are known to be late developers, keep going with your plan, i am sure things will work out!









debbie


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