# Female litter mates, 13 mos starting to fight



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

Disclaimer-I know now that it was a bad idea to get these monsters as litter mates, I got them out of grief and wasn't thinking clearly. 

They get along quite well, some spats here and there. Now we have had a couple of serious fights. They compete with each other quite a bit. When I started reading up on it, they are doing all the typical things to dominate each other. 

When they start, what is the best way to handle it? What is allowed and what isn't? 

Thanks in advance


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Just out of curiosity, are they still intact? I had a couple of female litter mates that never fought. They got along for their entire lives. I had them spayed at 5 months old (I did not know better at the time, was advised to do that by my vet).


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Unfortunately, when litter mates fight it tends to only go downhill. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/190766-liter-mate-aggression.html

There are dozens of threads on this. Most breeders will not sell littermates together, especially females, for this reason... google "littermate syndrome". 

Spay them if they're not already, and keep them separate. Frequently the advice given is to re-home one... neither will flourish while both are there, competing with each other, and unless constant management is practiced it could get very, very ugly. 

How were they raised? Was time away from each other emphasized? 

What do you mean by what is allowed?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

1) spay them if not already
2) crate/rotate so they never cross each other's paths. 
3) rehome one if you can't do that


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

They are spayed. 
One was for our 21 year old daughter, but the dog is s handful, they are both reactive. So Ellie was too much and came to live with us. They are able to spend time apart but not much. 

What kind of interaction is healthy? That is what I meant, I assume I just crate one when it is getting tense. 
They do love each other and play well together, but I do see things becoming more serious.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

Does it ever work out?

They can not be walked together under any circumstances. They are nuts


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I have three bitches. All three of them are quite drivey, powerful and all three are dominant dogs. They weren't littermates but they compete with each other all the time.

In the house, no issues at all. However, I got them used to a nylon muzzle and that nylon muzzle is a god sent. It became a necessity with a Mal because she doesn't know how strong she is and because she doesn't regulate her playbites and loves to go for the other girls ears which too can lead to a fight. She only does it when she is overly excited and fired up. That's when she re-directs all her energy to the others and why she wears a muzzle whenever I let them out together. 

I never, never, never ever have any toys involved. Toys lead to a definite fight between Nala and Indra.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

Thanks for the tips.
What is wrong with the ear bites and play?
Ellie has patchy ears, I wasn't sure if it is from play or food allergies. BTW Ellie is not the dominant one.



Mrs.K said:


> I have three bitches. All three of them are quite drivey, powerful and all three are dominant dogs. They weren't littermates but they compete with each other all the time.
> 
> In the house, no issues at all. However, I got them used to a nylon muzzle and that nylon muzzle is a god sent. It became a necessity with a Mal because she doesn't know how strong she is and because she doesn't regulate her playbites and loves to go for the other girls ears which too can lead to a fight. She only does it when she is overly excited and fired up. That's when she re-directs all her energy to the others and why she wears a muzzle whenever I let them out together.
> 
> I never, never, never ever have any toys involved. Toys lead to a definite fight between Nala and Indra.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Honestly, I would re-home your daughter's dog. Give them both a chance to thrive and live a normal, happy life... and give YOU a chance to live a normal, happy life. Management can be a full-time thing with crate-and-rotate... and it sucks for both the dogs and the humans. 

You said you took her in because she was too much dog... do the pups go to classes, do obedience training, etc?


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

LoveEcho said:


> Honestly, I would re-home your daughter's dog. Give them both a chance to thrive and live a normal, happy life... and give YOU a chance to live a normal, happy life. Management can be a full-time thing with crate-and-rotate... and it sucks for both the dogs and the humans.
> 
> You said you took her in because she was too much dog... do the pups go to classes, do obedience training, etc?


The only class they have gone to is "Growl Class" which is a controlled environment where reactive dogs learn to focus on the owner and not trying to kill other dogs and people. THey can't go to normal classes as they are reactive

We have made great progress with this.

Training basic things is easy for them, it is the focus thing that we work on constantly.

Our lives are extremely stressful with the both of them. When it is only one in the house (the other goes to our daughter for a break) it is like a normal household.

Do you really think that they would thrive better apart?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Dotty said:


> Thanks for the tips.
> What is wrong with the ear bites and play?
> Ellie has patchy ears, I wasn't sure if it is from play or food allergies. BTW Ellie is not the dominant one.


The Malinois bitch always needs to bite something when she's overly excited and she has no idea how strong she is. If I don't put a muzzle on her, she will either go for Yukons nose, Nala's or Indra's ears. She bit Nala's ear so hard that she ended up with a deep scratch and a bloody ear. I was worried that she may end up with a blood ear which is why I simply put a muzzle on Ma Deuce and the problem is solved. She can still carry a stringball in her mouth but she can't do any damage to the other girls and I don't have to worry about a dog fight. 

For me rotating is not an issue, each of them gets alone time with me, which they need. However, I have to make sure that I keep a certain structure in that too. If I had one bitch out and then let bitch no2 out, bitch no2 will go after bitch no1 because of jealousy, however, if I have bitch no2 out first, bitch no1 doesn't care about any of that.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes. If you can find a qualified home.
Maybe enlist a rescue to assist in rehoming?


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Yes. If you can find a qualified home.
> Maybe enlist a rescue to assist in rehoming?


She would go back to the breeder because of the contract we signed.

If push came to shove, Ellie would go back to my daughter before anything. However she can't go back now due to her problems with reactivity. 

Ellie is going for a complete assessment on Saturday with a behaviorist, she also has separation anxiety. She is has tantrums, when I leave her alone for 5 mins, she will run around the house and chew everything in her path.

It is hard because, my daughter is young, she has to work. Where I work from home, so the dogs are rarely alone.

I hate to think of Ellie alone for such long stretches and her sister (mine) has a charmed life.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Does your daughter have another dog? If not, reactivity can be addressed.

I'd send the dog back to the breeder, then, if it was me, rather than sentence her to a life like


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dotty said:


> She would go back to the breeder because of the contract we signed.
> 
> If push came to shove, Ellie would go back to my daughter before anything. However she can't go back now due to her problems with reactivity.
> 
> ...


I live with 2 spayed females that can't get along. It's exhausting. 

First, spaying an actually make a dog more aggressive because her hormones are out of whack. I wish I had known that prior to spaying Sierra specifically for aggression. But that is not relevant to your situation anyways just an interesting note.

Return the your daughter's girl to the breeder. A wise friend put it this way when I wanted to adopt an adult male....let her be somebody's baby instead of your management headache. Your daughter is obviously not ready for a dog and you need to make the right decision for the dog, which is get her into a home with no other females and someone that has time to work on her issues.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Return the your daughter's girl to the breeder. A wise friend put it this way when I wanted to adopt an adult male....let her be somebody's baby instead of your management headache.


Great words of wisdom!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jax08 said:


> i live with 2 spayed females that can't get along. It's exhausting.
> 
> First, spaying an actually make a dog more aggressive because her hormones are out of whack. I wish i had known that prior to spaying sierra specifically for aggression. But that is not relevant to your situation anyways just an interesting note.
> 
> Return the your daughter's girl to the breeder. A wise friend put it this way when i wanted to adopt an adult male....let her be somebody's baby instead of your management headache. your daughter is obviously not ready for a dog and you need to make the right decision for the dog, which is get her into a home with no other females and someone that has time to work on her issues.


this!


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Does your daughter have another dog? If not, reactivity can be addressed.
> 
> I'd send the dog back to the breeder, then, if it was me, rather than sentence her to a life like


No she doesn't have another dog.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well if she can't manage the dog, then,


> let her be somebody's baby instead of your management headache.


It isn't fair to any of you to have to manage her for the rest of her life.
As others said, she's got a shot at being a normal dog whom someone dotes on for the rest of her life.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your input, it is being processed and I see that this is quite serious and should be taken that way. It makes me feel sad thinking that they would be happier alone.




Jax08 said:


> I live with 2 spayed females that can't get along. It's exhausting.
> 
> First, spaying an actually make a dog more aggressive because her hormones are out of whack. I wish I had known that prior to spaying Sierra specifically for aggression. But that is not relevant to your situation anyways just an interesting note.
> 
> Return the your daughter's girl to the breeder. A wise friend put it this way when I wanted to adopt an adult male....let her be somebody's baby instead of your management headache. Your daughter is obviously not ready for a dog and you need to make the right decision for the dog, which is get her into a home with no other females and someone that has time to work on her issues.


We are a very animal oriented family, and would try everything before we rehomed. My whole life is about pets, work included.

They do play ALL day together, all in fun. Sometimes it gets a little serious, but they stop right away. 

So far the serious fighting is when they are super excited to go for a car ride, they fight on the way to the car. So the energy is very high. We now leash them when approaching the car.

I do have another option.
I work from home, but it is in a separate space, not in the 'home' but detached from the home. I could bring one in the morning and one in the evening.

They really are the farthest thing from unhappy from what I can tell.

My husband is the golden boy, God's gift to everything  dogs included. His attention is what they compete for.

I am serious about trying everything, I am actually considering going to a dog training school in January so I can train them myself. 

We had a GS cross for 15 years (RIP last Dec.), he was a very cherished member of our family. It is a big adjustment! It was a shock that these dogs could see and hear us; we were so used to having a deaf and mostly blind dog we had to carry everywhere most of the time.


----------



## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

What dog training school are you considering going to? Where in Canada do you live? There are lots of Canadians on here that can guide you to the best place!


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

Note:

If I think it is best for Ellie to be rehomed, I will do it, I am not blind or selfish when it comes to a situation like this.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

Kyleigh said:


> What dog training school are you considering going to? Where in Canada do you live? There are lots of Canadians on here that can guide you to the best place!


I was thinking of driving down to the Michael Ellis school in California for 2 weeks.

I am on the West Coast, in Vancouver.

I am open to suggestions, thank you.


----------



## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I can't help you LOL ... but now that others have some more info on you, they can chime in!!!

Good luck with what ever decision you decide to make!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am hearing over and over, rehome one of them, give it back to the breeder. 

In this case, the contract says that they must give it back to the breeder, and if they choose on rehoming, that is what they should do, but

1. What does the forum think the breeder is going to do with this dog?
A. Put it in a kennel and breed it every cycle, thankfully, not possible as it is spayed?
B. Take it to training classes and work with it until they can feel confident about rehoming it?
C. Adding it to the current dog pack, crating and rotating with the members of the pack they have? 
D. Take it to the vet one last time. 

Breeders should take their pups back if the new owners cannot manage it. But breeders also have a budget. If they are going to keep a place in their pack for a dog, then it really should be a dog that can produce. Because it costs money to train, to vet, to feed each dog and eventually you have a number of dogs that are all not producing, whether they are retired, or they have some physical issue, or they landed with the wrong people the first time around the block. 

Sometimes breeders can find people who want an adult dog. But those people generally want an adult so that they do not have to go through the horrors of puppy raising. If they don't feel up to raising a puppy, giving them a reactive dog is not a good idea. 

So if you have a conscientious breeder, they will take the dog back. And they will try to give it what it needs. Let it settle in, work with it, take it to classes, keep it safe and keep eyes and ears open for the right home for the dog, knowing full well, that the chances are, the dog will be with them for a long time, if not forever. 

A smart breeder would euthanize the dog. They would feel bad about it, but if living crate/rotate for a couple of years until daughter is at a better place to take over the training and management of her dog, is too hard on a dog, then living in a kennel at the breeders the vast majority of the time, well, what exactly is that? 

I am hearing an OP that is having a rough time managing two females that are close in age. The females are not trying to kill each other at this point, but it sounds like there are issues, and it may be escalating.

What to do? The atmosphere is charged with the two girls. There definitely are times when energy and excitement levels tip the scales. The rest of the time it seems like they live ok. 

If the OP cares for these dogs, then I would make the following suggestions:
1. Crate them when you feed them or when you give them any high value treats. I would put both in crates, not one out and one in. 

2. Take each dog separately to training classes once a week, and take each dog separately on a walk each day. 

3. Do not ever take both dogs in the car -- you have marked that as a crazy time for them, where they will compete and fight. If you have to take both dogs somewhere, then I hope you have an SUV or truck that allows you to put crates in there. Then take them out separately and crate them. 

If they can run in the back yard together without issue, allow them to, each day for a set time. Then they are in. The moment there is any squabbling, both dogs are crated and ignored. 

Up your leadership with the dogs. Look up NILIF, and implement it. 

Take the one dog with you in the morning to work, while the other is left in the house or crated, and in the afternoon take the other. 

I will guaranty you that no matter how good your breeder is, she isn't going to have more time to spend with your spayed bitch pup, then you have to spend with her. 

Maybe the breeder should not have sold littermates -- well, the owner said one was for the daughter. 

Maybe it actually is the breeder's problem, it is. But unless you can accept whatever a breeder might choose to do with the puppy that you send back, be very careful about this decision. 

The breeder may try to do the best thing for this puppy if you send it back to her, the best she can do for it, might not be anywhere close to how well you can do for the dog.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My experience in "temporarily" taking in pets from adult children is that it tends to be forever. I would let my daughter solve this. I know she cannot handle it but you are dealing with the stress as well if I am correctly reading between the lines. Have an honest talk with her. Everyone, dog or human, is entitled to happiness and living in peace.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response!

Yes, the breeder is busy with her dogs, most are dogs that are rescues, misfits, aggressive and the parents are bought for breeding. One dog she tube feeds. I think this was her first go at breeding.

I was the only one who got them to be family pets/companions, one went to be a guard dog, the other is sickly, the other two went to be trained for Schutzand competitions.

I was coming here to look for ways to manage them and control it before it escalates. I was surprised that all the responses were to get rid of one  

We are in a position to care for them financially for whatever they need, be it training, dog sitting, surgeries, or whatever. I do have time for them.

This dog would need a special family, she is reactive, accident prone, not good with kids, dogs and people, and has skin issues, which now seems like allergies. To top it off, she loves attention. Our home is better if we can sort this out.

I never ever even had rehoming her cross my mind, until people here suggested. I will look up NLILF, thank you!

We don't crate them for feeding or treats, it hasn't been a problem, maybe I should, so it doesn't _become_ a problem. Their toys have never been an issue, they make games with the toys (I have the toy, come and get it, lets play chase!), not fight over them.

We love the dogs, both of them very much.

I think we will do more things with them on their own. I know it is stupid, but I feel really terrible taking one and leaving the other at home. The one left behind looks so sad!

Izzy is mine and Ellie is the Mr.'s responsibility. I wonder if we should switch off so they don't compete for him so, Izzy doesn't get jealous? 

Also note, our daughter LOVES this dog, it is just easy for her to have Ellie live with us, you know how it is  We also feel she is getting better care with us.



selzer said:


> I am hearing over and over, rehome one of them, give it back to the breeder.
> 
> In this case, the contract says that they must give it back to the breeder, and if they choose on rehoming, that is what they should do, but
> 
> ...


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My first experience with owning bitches that did not get along was when my brother's 3 year old bitch came to live with me when his partner died and he had to move back in with our parents. My 2 year old bitch was my everything. After about two months of being together, the two girls decided they hated each other and wanted the other dead. 

My brother was going to school at the time to get a bachelor of nursing. He would be in a position to take his dog back some day. After WWIII, I could have handed him the leash and said, deal with it. But I did not. I built kennels instead, and I kept them separated from that point onward. I kept them separated for two years. 

Jazzy was 5 when my brother bought his house and took her back. She passed away about a year ago. I think she was 11 or 12. She had a great life. And she deserved a great life. It was temporary, the less than great life she had at my place when things were not all roses. 

I think that if I had forced my brother to take her back, he would have had to give her to her breeder (she never was fixed), or drop her at a shelter. My parents were adamant that she could not come there. I cannot guaranty that she would have had any life at all, had I done that.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> My experience in "temporarily" taking in pets from adult children is that it tends to be forever. I would let my daughter solve this. I know she cannot handle it but you are dealing with the stress as well if I am correctly reading between the lines. Have an honest talk with her. Everyone, dog or human, is entitled to happiness and living in peace.


The stress is around training and walking two puppies (separately). Add in they are both reactive. I hope once the puppy stress is gone, it will be not such a big issue.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dotty said:


> Thank you so much for your thoughtful response!
> 
> Yes, the breeder is busy with her dogs, most are dogs that are rescues, misfits, aggressive and the parents are bought for breeding. One dog she tube feeds. I think this was her first go at breeding.
> 
> ...


It's NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free, it works for a lot of people. Having a pack makes using your body language and little things much more important. 

I think you must be doing a lot right to have two young bitches who have been ok to this point. But now it sounds like stepping it up. 

It doesn't sound stupid to feel for the dog that is not going with you. It is human though. You want to be fair to both dogs. Here is a thought, try to look at the similarities of each of your dogs. Now try and look at how they differ. Now, try and see if there are some things that one dog is likely to enjoy more than the other dog would. Take the dog that would love to run through the woods hiking, take the other dog for a run to dairy queen. They are two different individuals, and its hard, but do it all matter-of-factly.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dotty said:


> The stress is around training and walking two puppies (separately). Add in they are both reactive. I hope once the puppy stress is gone, it will be not such a big issue.


I have a lot of dogs. 

When classes are in session, I take one or two dogs -- two classes back to back on the same night. I work each dog (currently enrolled) once a week in class. 

I don't walk them every day. If you can't take each dog separately every day, take each dog every other day. That is much better than trying to take two reactive dogs at the same time. Because they will feed off of each other. 

Sometimes a good work out can be throwing the ball in the back yard.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

Here they are!
They love to wrestle.

I am sure Jazzy's life wasn't that bad with you.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Wow they are beautiful!!!

I still don't get why your daughter can't take her dog back? You mentioned that she works....how long are her shifts? I think most people on this forum work. I work 8-5 every day but my dogs certainly are not neglected nor do they live an unfulfilled life. The reactivity stuff is common and can be worked through, but it would be easier on everyone if each dog had a handler they could look to for trust and proper guidance.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They are beautiful. 

It is so great when they are playing and happy together. Unfortunately, it is awful for us when they are not. 

It would be best if your daughter could take her dog and work with her. And, I agree that having her stay at home alone should be just fine, so long as your daughter is able to work with her when she is home. 

Is there some light at the end of the tunnel? Is there a specific deadline or something that is making it really tough for her right now, but should be done by year end, or spring?


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

As far as the daughter goes, she is super irresponsible. We felt Ellie wasn't getting the exercise she should have gotten, structure, or the training. Our daughter likes to party and have fun, so she is alone at night too. Now she is in a house with other people so she said she can't take Ellie there. 

My daughter and Ellie are very bonded too, Ellie just melts right into her when she visits.

Now that I am reflecting on all of this right now, maybe she is better there then here. We still foot the bill on everything Ellie needs when she lived with her, she would always get the same as her sister.

Oh I don't know!


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This is one of those really difficult issues. I know you want to help both dogs, but sometimes this issue just isn't fixable. They aren't puppies anymore. You'll actually have more stress since now they can easily hurt/kill each other. At one year old they are fully capable of doing some really bad things to each other and to other dogs.

The fact is, even if you fix this problem for a year, two years, three years, bitches still have a tendency to snap at each other randomly. If you want any type of a "normal" dog life, you should really think about rehoming one of them. That way...with just one you can work on focus and ignoring other dogs. You'll never be able to walk the two of them together as they don't just react to other dogs but to each other and so it would be almost impossible to get them to look at you and ignore everything else if both of them are at your side. I'm sure its possible, but this would have to be done by someone that is very very experienced at handling dogs.

As you've seen by most of the forum posts...even the most experienced of people (breeders, SAR people, Schutzhund people) have all done the crate and rotate thing. It makes for a peaceful household, with much less stress and much less worry. They don't have to be on their toes at all times, thinking a fight will break out, and so the dogs are then calmer as well.

I wouldn't give one back to your daughter either...give the dog to someone that has time for it. I swear if you were closer to me I'd really consider it. We're starting our search for a female and although I have a male already, sometimes dogs just click. If it was easy to have some prolonged meetings/play dates I would have loved to take one of those beauties off your hands.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> This is one of those really difficult issues. I know you want to help both dogs, but sometimes this issue just isn't fixable. They aren't puppies anymore. You'll actually have more stress since now they can easily hurt/kill each other. At one year old they are fully capable of doing some really bad things to each other and to other dogs.
> 
> The fact is, even if you fix this problem for a year, two years, three years, bitches still have a tendency to snap at each other randomly. If you want any type of a "normal" dog life, you should really think about rehoming one of them. That way...with just one you can work on focus and ignoring other dogs. You'll never be able to walk the two of them together as they don't just react to other dogs but to each other and so it would be almost impossible to get them to look at you and ignore everything else if both of them are at your side. I'm sure its possible, but this would have to be done by someone that is very very experienced at handling dogs.
> 
> ...



She can't, she will have to give it back to the breeder. That can work out ok for the dog, and it can be a death sentence for the dog. It depends on how much time and energy the breeder has and how much time and energy she thinks the dog will need. It sounds like the breeder is pretty inexperienced. She probably came on a forum like this one and they told her to at least make a contract saying people must give the dog back. 

Well that is what the contract says. But the OP says the breeder is up to her ears in dogs, rescues, training, etc. The OP has to consider what is best for the pup that she bought for her daughter and has been caring for.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

I really like that idea of taking the one for a good walk one day and the other the next day. 

We used to love to take our dog who passed away, along the ocean, for long walks and a swim or two. We haven't been able to do that at all.
My husband and I can walk like that together again, if we alternate dogs. That way they both get our collective attention and training.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Dotty said:


> The only class they have gone to is "Growl Class" which is a controlled environment where reactive dogs learn to focus on the owner and not trying to kill other dogs and people. THey can't go to normal classes as they are reactive
> 
> We have made great progress with this.
> 
> ...


*YES!!!!!
*
_They are reactiv__e__ dogs_ - this is a problem in and of itself.
_Your lives are stressful_ - this is going to escalate until there is some serious, $$$$$$ damage - 2 dogs trying to kill each other causes big big big vet bills...and possibly people getting hurt as well
_when only one is in the house, it is like a normal household_ - see, you KNOW the answer!!! either your daughter takes on her dog, or you get it rehomed - and keep them separate until then....

I have had bitch fights - it is scary, it is dangerous, and there is a definite possibility of one dog killing the other as they get older, stronger and the animosity escalates - and it WILL.

Please, please, for everyone's sake - take measures to resolve this before you have a serious incident...

Lee


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have two spayed females and have to manage them, though they are fine for the most part. I make the dominant female carry a ball in her mouth whenever they are playing(she knows she needs it too!) so the option of biting when she gets ramped up is put into that ball.
I don't know how your dogs play, but mine sound like they are killing each other, when in fact it is noise involved w/ the play. When I see posturing, I will step in and remove one.

You have working lines and they do need an outlet for their mental being. Other than walks, do you do anything with either of them? Agility, tracking or nosework, treibball, whatever to keep them mentally and physically active may help? You don't have to go to group classes for some of these activities, just have the equipment and look at some vids w/ instruction to begin.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A friend of mine in grade school had a miniature poodle. She had pups, they kept a daughter and the mother dog killed the young dog when that dog was a young adult during the night one time. Males fight for hierarchy but females fight to drive the other female out.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I give you thumbs up for dealing with these two girls, I don't think I'd have the patience or really want to deal with all that stress.

They ARE both beautiful dogs! All I can add, to the good ideas already posted, is this. IF you are going to keep both of them, you mentioned going to Michael Ellis school / train them yourself..My gosh if you have the chance to go to ME school, I would take it in a heartbeat)

Can one bring a 'dog' to ME school? If so, I'd be taking your daughters dogs since she sounds like she has anxiety/more issues than Ellie?


----------



## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I think seeing a behaviorist and introducing NILIF is starting in the right direction if you're willing to work to keep them. As you've been doing, monitor them and see what is triggering the fights. Once you know the triggers then you can start figuring out how to avoid them.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I give you thumbs up for dealing with these two girls, I don't think I'd have the patience or really want to deal with all that stress.
> 
> They ARE both beautiful dogs! All I can add, to the good ideas already posted, is this. IF you are going to keep both of them, you mentioned going to Michael Ellis school / train them yourself..My gosh if you have the chance to go to ME school, I would take it in a heartbeat)
> 
> Can one bring a 'dog' to ME school? If so, I'd be taking your daughters dogs since she sounds like she has anxiety/more issues than Ellie?


I was going to bring my gal, Izzy, she has her own issues. I was thinking of bringing Ellie instead, but I want to get something out of it and enjoy it if I can, Ellie might a little much and stress me out.



wolfy dog said:


> A friend of mine in grade school had a miniature poodle. She had pups, they kept a daughter and the mother dog killed the young dog when that dog was a young adult during the night one time. Males fight for hierarchy but females fight to drive the other female out.


Geez

They are always in a controlled environment. If they are left alone for an hour, they are crated. If we go out for more then a couple hours or overnight, they are sent to different sitters (neighbors). At night they are in our room. 





onyx'girl said:


> I have two spayed females and have to manage them, though they are fine for the most part. I make the dominant female carry a ball in her mouth whenever they are playing(she knows she needs it too!) so the option of biting when she gets ramped up is put into that ball.
> I don't know how your dogs play, but mine sound like they are killing each other, when in fact it is noise involved w/ the play. When I see posturing, I will step in and remove one.
> 
> You have working lines and they do need an outlet for their mental being. Other than walks, do you do anything with either of them? Agility, tracking or nosework, treibball, whatever to keep them mentally and physically active may help? You don't have to go to group classes for some of these activities, just have the equipment and look at some vids w/ instruction to begin.


We haven't done anything organized, I am dying to do that, but I need to get this reactivity under control first. 



wolfstraum said:


> *YES!!!!!
> *
> _They are reactiv__e__ dogs_ - this is a problem in and of itself.
> _Your lives are stressful_ - this is going to escalate until there is some serious, $$$$$$ damage - 2 dogs trying to kill each other causes big big big vet bills...and possibly people getting hurt as well
> ...


Thank you for your input, believe me I am taking all these warnings seriously.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Reactive behavior will sometimes wane with maturity. The book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt helped me learn to manage Onyx. I was lucky to take a class w/ Onyx based on the book. If you don't have this book, I would invest in it....the exercises laid out are very helpful. Welcome to Dogwise.com


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Reactive behavior will sometimes wane with maturity. The book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt helped me learn to manage Onyx. I was lucky to take a class w/ Onyx based on the book. If you don't have this book, I would invest in it....the exercises laid out are very helpful. Welcome to Dogwise.com


I am going to order that tonight, thank you!



Verivus said:


> I think seeing a behaviorist and introducing NILIF is starting in the right direction if you're willing to work to keep them. As you've been doing, monitor them and see what is triggering the fights. Once you know the triggers then you can start figuring out how to avoid them.


I checked the NILIF and it seems pretty simple. Will start that tonight.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

The reactivity and other issues you are seeing are typical of dogs raised with a littermate. "Littermate Syndrome" is a multi-faceted problem. You may find that, if separated into different households, each dog will stop the reactive stuff on her own and become a better dog. 

If you can make your household seem like a one-dog household at all times, that would be ideal. If the two get along well when out in the yard, allow them to play in the yard--but only dog loose in the house at a time. Walk each dog separately, play and train with each separately. Crate and rotate. Feed them separately. 

The more you can train, the better. It is time well spent, and you will see results if you stick to it.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I still think your daughter needs to be involved. If one of the dogs is hers she needs to take responsibility for it, whether that is her or sending the dog back to the breeder. That should be her responsibility. I don't always agree with the way my siblings raise and train their pets but as long as they aren't being abused I try to be available to help when asked.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I still think your daughter needs to be involved. If one of the dogs is hers she needs to take responsibility for it, whether that is her or sending the dog back to the breeder. That should be her responsibility. I don't always agree with the way my siblings raise and train their pets but as long as they aren't being abused I try to be available to help when asked.


Exactly, people don't learn to take responsibility when you always take the responsibility away from them. If it is her dog, it is her dog and she needs to take charge of it.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> Exactly, people don't learn to take responsibility when you always take the responsibility away from them. If it is her dog, it is her dog and she needs to take charge of it.


It's called "tough love". It is harder on the mother than on the kid but it works like a charm. It will each your daughter to think twice next time when she knows mom doesn't solve it any longer.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You should really stop delaying training because of reactivity. You need to find a trainer that will work with you one on one. Agility, nosework, tracking are all "one dog" exercises and I've heard of many successful agility dogs that were at one time dog aggressive.

The first step in training them to not be reactive is to get them comfortable with a certain type of work. When they are really good, or at least controllable in that setting, you start introducing other dogs. This way, the reactive dog is so busy doing its own thing, it doesn't even realize the other dogs are there. Obedience is mostly worked on at home/by yourself as well. You get your dog to a point where they will always look up at you and just do what you ask when you are on your own, and then you add other dogs to test if the dog will do it in all situations. The idea is to, again, have such great focus on you, that the dog doesn't notice the other dogs there.

You talk like you have to train past the reactivity before you can start training in a sport, but in reality, training in the sport is a huge part of training past the reactivity.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

martemchik said:


> You should really stop delaying training because of reactivity. You need to find a trainer that will work with you one on one. Agility, nosework, tracking are all "one dog" exercises and I've heard of many successful agility dogs that were at one time dog aggressive.
> 
> The first step in training them to not be reactive is to get them comfortable with a certain type of work. When they are really good, or at least controllable in that setting, you start introducing other dogs. This way, the reactive dog is so busy doing its own thing, it doesn't even realize the other dogs are there. Obedience is mostly worked on at home/by yourself as well. You get your dog to a point where they will always look up at you and just do what you ask when you are on your own, and then you add other dogs to test if the dog will do it in all situations. The idea is to, again, have such great focus on you, that the dog doesn't notice the other dogs there.
> 
> You talk like you have to train past the reactivity before you can start training in a sport, but in reality, training in the sport is a huge part of training past the reactivity.


I was laying up last night worrying about this. Thanks, should I join the schutzand? I find when I look for training, there are so many theories, the different trainers criticize the others. The first one I took her to, is where all the lunging started. 
Ellie has her assessment tomorrow with someone who works on reactivity. 



wolfy dog said:


> It's called "tough love". It is harder on the mother than on the kid but it works like a charm. It will each your daughter to think twice next time when she knows mom doesn't solve it any longer.


I wish I could, but when it comes to our pets, we can't. If it was anything other then a living creature, I can't do tough love. I have her bird now too!!!



Mrs.K said:


> Exactly, people don't learn to take responsibility when you always take the responsibility away from them. If it is her dog, it is her dog and she needs to take charge of it.


I wish I could take a hard line, but I just think of Ellie, locked in a crate for hours and hours crying or play, go for walks, never alone, getting trained here. It is an easy choice. Another thing that is super serious is if she is trained willy nilly, she will bite someone, if she does, her fate is not in my hands anymore. She doesn't like kids. If I didn't worry about that, and Ellie is a nice well adjusted dog, it might be different. 



Liesje said:


> I still think your daughter needs to be involved. If one of the dogs is hers she needs to take responsibility for it, whether that is her or sending the dog back to the breeder. That should be her responsibility. I don't always agree with the way my siblings raise and train their pets but as long as they aren't being abused I try to be available to help when asked.


She just partys too much and her brain goes out the window


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

I appreciate everyone's info and personal experiences, it helps!
We started the NILIF last night!


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If you can implement these, too, it will help a lot 

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

As an owner of two littermates (Frenchie males) and now living with two females that can't be together without a blood bath, the only thing I can say is either rotate dogs or find a new home for one of them.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Dotty said:


> I was laying up last night worrying about this. Thanks, should I join the schutzand? I find when I look for training, there are so many theories, the different trainers criticize the others. The first one I took her to, is where all the lunging started.
> Ellie has her assessment tomorrow with someone who works on reactivity.


No you don't need to be doing Schutzhund. Schutzhund is a huge commitment and starting out with a reactive dog would not be the best way for your to learn about the sport. You need something that' a bit easier, but something that your dogs will excel at. Find a place, or a person that will teach you how to do something (anything) and then practice, practice, practice at home. You don't need a class, just a person that you can meet weekly, or just periodically that helps you get through obstacles you might run into while training. Agility is pretty easy to do by yourself, if you have a yard, you can set up a pretty good course and work certain articles. Obedience...you might want a person there to instruct you on how to handle and how to teach certain things (like a recall, retrieve, ect). But you don't need to concentrate on the reactivity of your dog...just teach her stuff.

I should add...if you have the time, and can commit to Schutzhund, then do it. But it will be tough to do because rarely are you training Schutzhund by yourself. And as someone that is new to the sport you will need all the help you can get, and the help comes with other people and their dogs. That's why I'm recommending something else, there are easier sports, that are easier to figure out for us rookies without the need for an instructor or a group.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> If you can implement these, too, it will help a lot
> 
> Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong


I just printed it out, thanks for that.



Konotashi said:


> As an owner of two littermates (Frenchie males) and now living with two females that can't be together without a blood bath, the only thing I can say is either rotate dogs or find a new home for one of them.


No blood yet, but thanks for your input.



martemchik said:


> No you don't need to be doing Schutzhund. Schutzhund is a huge commitment and starting out with a reactive dog would not be the best way for your to learn about the sport. You need something that' a bit easier, but something that your dogs will excel at. Find a place, or a person that will teach you how to do something (anything) and then practice, practice, practice at home. You don't need a class, just a person that you can meet weekly, or just periodically that helps you get through obstacles you might run into while training. Agility is pretty easy to do by yourself, if you have a yard, you can set up a pretty good course and work certain articles. Obedience...you might want a person there to instruct you on how to handle and how to teach certain things (like a recall, retrieve, ect). But you don't need to concentrate on the reactivity of your dog...just teach her stuff.
> 
> I should add...if you have the time, and can commit to Schutzhund, then do it. But it will be tough to do because rarely are you training Schutzhund by yourself. And as someone that is new to the sport you will need all the help you can get, and the help comes with other people and their dogs. That's why I'm recommending something else, there are easier sports, that are easier to figure out for us rookies without the need for an instructor or a group.


I will see what the behaviorist recommends for Ellie tomorrow and then I will talk to the other trainer I trust. 

I also *might* go to that Michael Ellis school with Izzy the last two weeks of January.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is Michael versed on behavior issues? He's a great trainer, no doubt but not sure you'd be getting your $ worth at this time if Izzy is reactive. 
I'd try to have a local trainer first help you, and implement the suggestions posted here. I bet you'll see a different dog when committing to the exercises posted. 

Then go and visit Michael!


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Is Michael versed on behavior issues? He's a great trainer, no doubt but not sure you'd be getting your $ worth at this time if Izzy is reactive.
> I'd try to have a local trainer first help you, and implement the suggestions posted here. I bet you'll see a different dog when committing to the exercises posted.
> 
> Then go and visit Michael!


Izzy is much better, we can walk by dogs and people now. I think she is ready. Like I said Izzy and I have been doing focus work for months now.

Her only trigger now is if someone approaches her with their hand out, looking her in the eye. Or a dog eyeballing her and of course a dog lunging at her.

That could be a protective thing.

I was actually going to post a question about that.

The difference between -reactive barking- versus -protective barking-

I have no idea what is a typical behavior for a barker. My other dog (RIP) never barked, except when he was young.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Most dogs at the age Izzy is are reactive out of fear not protective behavior. 
The ones that are truly aggressive protective are far and few between(she may be one of them?). 
Thresholds play into it as well. 

Is the behaviorist or trainer you will be visiting knowledgeable on the GSD? 
I know it was mentioned NOT to get with a SchH club, but I would possibly contact a club for an evaluation, it won't hurt and the TD/ members in the club knows the breed better than "pet" trainers. 
Though if the trainers you've contacted are very familiar with the breed(and hopefully the lines you have) then all good!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dotty said:


> They are spayed.
> One was for our 21 year old daughter, but the dog is s handful, they are both reactive. So Ellie was too much and came to live with us. They are able to spend time apart but not much.
> 
> What kind of interaction is healthy? That is what I meant, I assume I just crate one when it is getting tense.
> They do love each other and play well together, but I do see things becoming more serious.


Dotty, help us understand, you say one was for our daughter, you said earlier you bought them out of grief. Did you buy both puppies? 

Did you buy a puppy for your daughter? If that is the case, then I can well understand bailing her out. But now your have your daughter's bird also? 

Some people shouldn't have pets period. If she is partying and not managing to take care of her pets, then partying is more important than pets, and she probably shouldn't own a pet. But if she is a person who is going to run out and get another pet, and when it's newness wears off, dumps it on you, then you have to start pushing back. Put your foot down. No more. Because if that is the case, you are enabling your daughter in some pretty unhealthy behavior.


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Dotty said:


> I was thinking of driving down to the Michael Ellis school in California for 2 weeks.
> 
> I am on the West Coast, in Vancouver.
> 
> I am open to suggestions, thank you.


Monique Anstee in Victoria, BC. Naughty Dogge


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dotty said:


> Izzy is much better, we can walk by dogs and people now. I think she is ready. Like I said Izzy and I have been doing focus work for months now.
> 
> *Her only trigger now is if someone approaches her with their hand out, looking her in the eye. Or a dog eyeballing her and of course a dog lunging at her.
> *
> ...


I think owners of reactive pups (for GSDs under 2) have a tough job. They have to take leadership to a higher level. They have to be aware of dogs that are eyeballing there dog and long before there is any lunging they need to step in between and without actually retreating, adjust the situation so the two dogs are not brought near enough for your dog to be threatened. 

As for people with the outstretched hand. I firmly believe that most reactive dogs are scaredy dogs, and maturity coupled with some positive experiences will greatly reduce or totally eliminate this behavior. Building there confidence in you through training, and themselves through learning and being praised for accomplishments, is huge. Agility training is a full body work out, positive, lots of treats and praise, fun, fun, fun for dogs, and it really seems to help bring an otherwise timid pup out. 

And it is at your obedience training, and possibly agility classes, that you can let your pup get those few canine/human polite say-hello. For everyone else, strangers on the street, if they approach your dog with an outstretched hand, step forward and say "Sorry, she's in training." If you set your dog up with dog-people who are unlikely to be afraid in the first place, and unlikely to come right down on her head with their hands, and you don't over do it, she should become a little more approachable. What I will do is with the dog sitting at my side, and a dog-person standing in front offering a hand, I will say, "say hello." The girl will stretch her nose forward and sniff the hand. Then I praise. I do not start out with allowing petting from strangers if the dog seems uncomfortable. After a while, they get to the point where in class we will get to the "may I pet your dog?" And at that point, the instructor comes forward, not a complete stranger, offers a hand, and then scritches under the chin/chest, and up on the side of the head. 

Pretty soon the classes will often have other members come down the line and say hello to each of us, and shake our hands while the dog sits by our side. Usually we don't have everyone pet each other's dog, but the instructor might have her associate trainer and sometimes another person do this. It just ensures that the experiences the dog has is non-threatening, as the dog gets more of these experiences, she will become more relaxed, and soon it won't have to be a experienced dog-person, and she will not automatically think that the person will hurt her. 

While all that is going on, through all the training, the dog is gaining in confidence in herself, and gaining in confidence in you. As the weeks go by, she is maturing, and gaining in confidence, and soon will take her cues from you. If you are nervous and holding the leash with the grip of death, that will make her anxious and heighten her reactivity. If you are calm, and give her a command, "SIT" and then, "SAY HELLO" She will be like, Oh yeah, I know this, this person is ok.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Most dogs at the age Izzy is are reactive out of fear not protective behavior.
> The ones that are truly aggressive protective are far and few between(she may be one of them?).
> Thresholds play into it as well.
> 
> ...


Apparently she is very familiar with the breed, so that is good. We had to wait 2 and a half months to get the appt.





selzer said:


> Dotty, help us understand, you say one was for our daughter, you said earlier you bought them out of grief. Did you buy both puppies?
> 
> Did you buy a puppy for your daughter? If that is the case, then I can well understand bailing her out. But now your have your daughter's bird also?
> 
> Some people shouldn't have pets period. If she is partying and not managing to take care of her pets, then partying is more important than pets, and she probably shouldn't own a pet. But if she is a person who is going to run out and get another pet, and when it's newness wears off, dumps it on you, then you have to start pushing back. Put your foot down. No more. Because if that is the case, you are enabling your daughter in some pretty unhealthy behavior.


We went together to get the dogs. 

She loves animals!! You know the people, you can tell it in their expression when they see a dog, their face softens and their eyes light up. A true animal lover, that is her.

She had her bird (she has had the bird since she was 14, and has taken great care of it) everything was good. She moved out, she was doing super and the bird was happy. She treated the bird like her little lap dog.

She had helped us care for our very senior dog, and loved him to pieces. She carried him when he needed to be, she cleaned up after his accidents, she loved and cared for him as we would. She came with us in the middle of the night to help him pass over.

My mom just died an now our dog Dirk. I was still in shock over it all, NOT thinking. My chest was still heavy with all the sadness.

We decided to get a puppy, the breeder said she had two left. Then my daughter wanted the other. 

She promised she would care for her dog, the whole thing. I bought her the dog.

She LOVED Ellie and was so committed, she never went out, Ellie went everywhere with her. She fussed over Ellie like crazy.
Ellie started getting bigger, stronger and unstable. I signed her up for training lessons, classes, she always had an excuse not to go. We had privates, but she was not into it.

Longer story short, she was not taking the training seriously or the exercise Ellie needed.

She still loves the dog, she is irresponsible at the moment. She has moved 3 times since Ellie came to live with us.

She won't get another pet, she loves the ones she has now.

That is the daughter/Ellie story. When they see each other, it is :wub:


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dotty, your website thingsforwings is cool! I have parrots too and the prices on your toys are reasonable....especially when they are made to be destroyed! What type of parrot does your daughter have?


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Dotty, your website thingsforwings is cool! I have parrots too and the prices on your toys are reasonable....especially when they are made to be destroyed! What type of parrot does your daughter have?


Thank you!
What kind of birds?


Daughter has a little cockatiel, named Duncan


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Dotty said:


> She loves animals!! You know the people, you can tell it in their expression when they see a dog, their face softens and their eyes light up. A true animal lover, that is her.


Please don't take this as rude or mean, I am simply sharing my own thoughts/opinions.

Just because she is an "animal lover" doesn't mean she needs to have an animal. With both HER pets living with you, having you do everything for them, she honestly doesn't have any. YOU do. 
She does love them, from your description. Everyone here can tell. What she doesn't seem to love is taking the responsibility to care for them. Again, not trying to be mean or rude or anything. I'm just speaking my mind. I apologize if I have misjudged what I've been reading or if this offends you. My sister is the same way (would rather party or go out with friends than care for her dog, despite how much she loves her).

How old is your daughter?


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Please don't take this as rude or mean, I am simply sharing my own thoughts/opinions.
> 
> Just because she is an "animal lover" doesn't mean she needs to have an animal. With both HER pets living with you, having you do everything for them, she honestly doesn't have any. YOU do.
> She does love them, from your description. Everyone here can tell. What she doesn't seem to love is taking the responsibility to care for them. Again, not trying to be mean or rude or anything. I'm just speaking my mind. I apologize if I have misjudged what I've been reading or if this offends you.
> ...


No offense taken at all.  

She is 21 years old. 

She has always been a little bit overindulged. A princess you might say.

She is cut off now.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

GSD's can be overwhelming for any age. I don't think that many young people know what they are getting into when they get a puppy, let alone a GSD. 
I know many younger adults are very responsible, but their schedules are not conducive to being a dog parent, let alone a child parent. 
I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to judge Dotty's daughter when Dotty said they got the pups impulsively. Hopefully DD will be more responsible when another pet enters her life/but I don't think discussing her 'lack of' is appropriate if she isn't here to defend herself.


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Well I apologize for not properly saying what I was trying to say. I wasn't judging her daughter, like I said... My sister is the same way. And so are all but three of my friends. Not everyone is ready for this kind of commitment. The only reason I can handle it is because I have no social life, am too young for alcohol and don't care for it anyways.  Add in an aversion to be around people and I'm the perfect dog-a-holic LOL! 
 I guess someone might understand the point I was trying to make. I would restate it if I knew a better way to put it.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Kymmey, you weren't the only one who commented on the daughter... it doesn't change the situation. I understood your point, but the daughter can only change if she wants to change. 
The dog, on the other hand, needs the help. 
You are responsible, and that is amazing, because not many are at your age!! Too many things pulling them every which way.


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

DunRingill said:


> Monique Anstee in Victoria, BC. Naughty Dogge


Thank you for taking the time to look that up. They are quite far from me, on an island!


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Dotty, Jane is right. The reason your daughter can't care for the pets is unimportant. What is important is that you did not let these pets fall through the cracks. Kudos to you for stepping up to the plate. I have three kids currently living at home - 23, 19, and 14. The older two are college students. The youngest just started high school. We recently got a puppy. I knew going in that I would be the primary caregiver. Everyone loves the puppy, but I am the only one who has time. That's just the way it is.


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Kymmey, you weren't the only one who commented on the daughter... it doesn't change the situation. I understood your point, but the daughter can only change if she wants to change.
> The dog, on the other hand, needs the help.
> You are responsible, and that is amazing, because not many are at your age!! Too many things pulling them every which way.


 I must have missed any other comments. I may go back and read them. May not. Depends on how soon Matt gets home with food 
I agree that the dog needs help. But my concern is that two female 13 m/o GSDs may be a bit much for one person to handle. They're going through the adolescent stage, are feeding off each other and are competing (not as badly as they could, but it is competing). 

It's true OP's daughter is at an age where a pet just isn't as easy to give proper care to. And as the above poster said, kudos to OP for taking the animals on! But I do think things would be easier, if not more effective, if OP could get some help. Obviously a trainer is great for both dogs. 
But what about trying to reel in the daughter a bit to help? 

Dotty- I know you said that your daughter avoided the training. How does she feel about hiking? 
Just an idea, depending on the dog of course and your daughter... How would your daughter feel about getting some friends together and going on a hike, and taking the pup that is hers? She could do some simple training while out and about, exercise the dog, and still get social time. And while she had hers hiking, you could work with your girl without worrying that hers isn't happy  
Not sure if that idea would work for you guys, but I wanted to throw it out there.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why I asked about the daughter was that people were saying that she should employ tough love and make the daughter take on the pets. Generally parents in a situation have a better handle than we do who have just read a thread. Also, buying the puppy for the daughter, does make it more understandable why the parent feels responsible for the puppy. 

But I agree, why the daughter's home is not necessarily the best place for the puppy isn't important. You are in a rough spot right now with more puppy than most people like to manage. 

This is really a tough situation because it is just not a matter of rehoming one of them, not just a matter of sending one to the daughter. They are spayed and two females can live together in the right situation. 

Give a month of working on NILIF, walking them separately, taking them separately to classes, and take that seminar. And I wonder if maybe things will get easier. It sounds like you already keep them separated when you are not supervising, so it sounds doable.


----------



## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

With the information you have provided,if you can't manage the two of them in a safe way then I think rehoming one would be better for all involved.



Dotty said:


> Do you really think that they would thrive better apart?


----------



## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> I must have missed any other comments. I may go back and read them. May not. Depends on how soon Matt gets home with food
> I agree that the dog needs help. But my concern is that two female 13 m/o GSDs may be a bit much for one person to handle. They're going through the adolescent stage, are feeding off each other and are competing (not as badly as they could, but it is competing).
> 
> It's true OP's daughter is at an age where a pet just isn't as easy to give proper care to. And as the above poster said, kudos to OP for taking the animals on! But I do think things would be easier, if not more effective, if OP could get some help. Obviously a trainer is great for both dogs.
> ...


THat is a great idea!
I guess I haven't mentioned much of this anywhere, but there is a *Mr.* Dotty here  He walks Ellie and trains her, he is the one that is in charge of her, and I walk train Izzy. I am home with the two of them during the day. 

They never ever go for walks together, even if I have one and he has the other. 

I used to try and walk them together, training as a pair, but when we ran into two reactive pit bulls on a busy street at rush hour, I could not hold them back, had no control, it was a close call. 

They are pretty good in the house. If they are up to something, we don't like, I just say "Bucket!" and stop in their tracks, look at me and zoom into their kennels, lay down and look out at me. It isn't like we have no control over them, we do. We also can say "Enough!" they stop and run into their kennels lol Even if I say "Izzy, bucket!" they both go.

We have to be very strict about kennel time as we have parrots and we would never risk the birds getting hurt. 

They know which lines they can cross and which ones they can't. I see now, I need more lines drawn though.



selzer said:


> Why I asked about the daughter was that people were saying that she should employ tough love and make the daughter take on the pets. Generally parents in a situation have a better handle than we do who have just read a thread. Also, buying the puppy for the daughter, does make it more understandable why the parent feels responsible for the puppy.
> 
> But I agree, why the daughter's home is not necessarily the best place for the puppy isn't important. You are in a rough spot right now with more puppy than most people like to manage.
> 
> ...


We will try everything to make it work. We all love the dogs.


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Dotty said:


> Thank you for taking the time to look that up. They are quite far from me, on an island!


Ah well it was a shot. She's a friend of mine and an EXCELLENT trainer. she might know of someone closer to you.


----------

