# Mixing the lines



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

A few recent threads and posts have me thinking what everyone thinks about mixing bloodlines - should it be done? Should it be avoided? Should some be mixed and others not to so much?

I know you see a lot of Czech x DDR mixes as well as some east and west WL mixes. A few members, myself included, have working and german show mixes. The recent thread about an ASL and GSL mix has been a pretty big hit.

So... how does everyone feel on the subject?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have a ASL/DDR cross, and i a crazy about him. He is the neatest dog I have had in a long time. Much of what I like and dislike about him came from his sire -- my boy Tag, but his big head and rich color is most likely the DDR. He is very willing to work -- although he has entered the "adolescent male" stage where he does tend to think twice before doing what I tell him to do.

Deestraum-Andaka's Jagged Edge - German Shepherd Dog

To me (and I hope Leis isn;t insulted) but he reminds me of her Nikon.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Since DDR lines tend to have higher thresholds they often make appropriate mixers for other lines that may need modifiers for sharpness or reactivity.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I'm not too sure how I feel on the subject, but that's only because I haven't been around enough mixed lined GSD's to give a legitimate opinion.

In my experience with Lucy (wgsl x DDR/Czech), the results were positive. Solid nerves, healthy, nice drive, etc. Good dog for what I was looking for.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Outcrossing (JMHO) has always been a good idea. It's the same concept as creating mutts or hybrids but (obviously) within the same breed. It gives you an opportunity to bring in desirable traits from different lines and, hopefully, creating better dogs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I know very little about GSD bloodlines. I know even less about Pit Bull bloodlines, but I have learned that the latter are very closely linebred, to the point where introducing another line may be considered blasphemy by purists, as the resulting offspring are less likely to exhibit the desired characteristics and may be unpredictable. Pit Bull purists look down upon "scatterbred" dogs and it seems some GSD purists feel the same way. 

I think what it comes down to with any breed possessing aggression is nerve strength. Some lines of GSD have more aggression, and some have weak nerves; you combine the two and you have a loaded gun. I think that's what gives breeders pause when attempting to combine different bloodlines. I do wish the GSD could be one breed, and that all GSD accross the board would have strong enough nerve to balance the potential aggression, but we are a long ways away from that it appears.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Andaka said:


> I have a ASL/DDR cross, and i a crazy about him. He is the neatest dog I have had in a long time.
> 
> Deestraum-Andaka's Jagged Edge - German Shepherd Dog


He is quite handsome! So just the maternal great-grandfather is DDR, yes? I wonder what the first generation ASL/DDR cross was like, do you happen to know?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

The way Freestep explained it is the way I've always heard it explained...I have seen a lot of ASL's and WGSL's, but I really don't know a lot about the individual dogs other than general abstract.

But there is SUCH a significant difference in some of the lines, I think you really have to be careful how you cross back in. I don't think anyone will argue that genetic diversity is a good thing...you just can't do it to do it.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Freestep... I definitely see what you're saying. There's such a drastic difference between some of these lines that it's almost like they're separate breeds. You really don't know what you're going to get.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have "mixed lines" in the past and probably would again, if I liked the dog. There is nothing wrong with doing that. I have added DDR, ( years ago so both dogs being used were different than many of the dogs we see now), and I got decent dogs. The generation after I added the DDR dog was better though, and many times, that's the way breeding works. It is not a" put two dogs together and get exactly what you are looking to produce" kind of thing, although, of course, that can happen. It is a case of adding this and then maybe the next breeding, you add a little of that. I have used males with more "show lines" years ago...but that _was_ years ago. I would not use a show line dog now.

Recently, I did a breeding to a male with a small amount of older Czech in his lines. Don't know much at all about those lines and didn't do the breeding because of that , or to add diversity. I know just about everything about the rest of that dog's pedigree and I liked the dog quite a bit. Didn't need to ask anyone for an opinion of what might come from the breeding, I already pretty much knew. I can't say I have ever done a breeding to simply add diversity. I did the breeding because the dogs complimented each other or one added something that I was looking for. 

I usually look at the dogs. For me, and for many breeders I know , ( who breed very good dogs), it is more a feeling you get about what two dogs might produce. After that, I will look at the pedigree . Of course the pedigree is considered, that should go without saying, just that maybe I am not doing it the same way others _seem _to be saying they are.

Here is one of my little "Czech crosses" lol.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If people don't have decent knowledge and/ or this feel for breedings that Anne describes, it is quite possible for them to make a mess while staying in related lines. There is no magic there if people think that it creates some advantage. 

There is a local breeder of working line dogs known for his ability to produce disasters in health and temperament so consistently that I say he has about perfected it!

I think someone who understands the dogs and knows what their plan is,can find success in combining lines removed from one another.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Samba said:


> There is a local breeder of working line dogs known for his ability to produce disasters in health and temperament so consistently that I say he has about perfected it!


We have a breeder like that here! OMG...if I had a $1 for every email I got when I was running a local rescue's email wanting to surrender their dog for some crazy health or temperment issue I'd be a rich woman!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Freestep said:


> He is quite handsome! So just the maternal great-grandfather is DDR, yes? I wonder what the first generation ASL/DDR cross was like, do you happen to know?


The maternal grandfather is DDR lines -- both parents were imported by Max's breeder.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I like what I have seen of Jag. Look forward to seeing him grow up. 
Seems like he has some Belgian GSD working lines in there also.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think if you know what you are doing and have the right dogs you can pull it off. 
But Toby was a West German Show x Czech dog and he was like the worst thing Dr Frankenstein could have put together.

We loved him to the end but he was not a good representative of the breed by any stretch.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have no problem with anyone mixing lines, for me it depends on the dog ..

I had a ASL/DDR male, he was the best dog EVER, If I could have cloned him I would have

And ANNE, the little mix is sommmmmmeeee stinken CUTE!!!!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I wish OzzyGSD would pop in here. Ozzy's half DDR and half ASL.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Is it this pup?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/160648-new-ozzy-pics-8-months.html#post2162426


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Anne, what do you call that cute pup? Czechs Mix?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

My boys Ari and Anik are mixed-line-mutts.... Think they are pretty nice personally.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Samba said:


> Anne, what do you call that cute pup? Czechs Mix?


:rofl: Good one!

Anne adorable pup :wub: Love those bicolors


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Anne, what do you call that cute pup? Czechs Mix?


Might not be a bad idea if he was from the C litter. He is a Q pup and my sister has him. They came up with Quirocco and they call him Rocco. I can't really say the Czech line in that pedigree is having lots of influence. He is mostly old West German stuff, with some of the "newer" working lines..... which is almost a mix in itself. lol.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Samba said:


> Is it this pup?
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/160648-new-ozzy-pics-8-months.html#post2162426


Yup. I met Ozzy when he was 6 months old, maybe back in April/May? He seemed like a nice pup.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think the quality of the dogs you produce reflect your breeding practice. Just like training a dog, there are many ways to successfully achieve it, with breeding there are different approaches that will work. As for mixing the lines, I am fortunate enough to have produced some nice working dogs both within a line and mixing lines. My reasons are usually based on my knowledge of dogs and lines, that works for me.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

cliffson1 said:


> I think the quality of the dogs you produce reflect your breeding practice. Just like training a dog, there are many ways to successfully achieve it, with breeding there are different approaches that will work. As for mixing the lines, I am fortunate enough to have produced some nice working dogs both within a line and mixing lines. My reasons are usually based on my knowledge of dogs and lines, that works for me.


Cliff... which lines did you mix and have success with?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

West working, DDR, and Czech, at this point. I did a Czech/GSL breeding about fifteen years ago...I kept pick puppy, and titled the dog who was drop dead gorgeous in looks and had good drive and nerve. BUT, in keeping up with the other pups in the litter, many were nervy and sharp aggression. The nervebase overall didnot support the combination. I have not tried that again. The irony was that my GSL female had a SUPER temperament. I then bred the Czech dog (before he went to NYSP), to a DDR/West working female and got great overall nerves and some nice family and police candidates. 
This is my experience, not to say its the only way, but I try to learn from all my experiences...lol.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cliff, interesting since that was my experience with Toby (Czech sire, German show dam)--


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I've seen the same too. In one litter of West german working and Show line (German) I saw nerviness, another dog I met from other litter of the same mix the dog I liked, but it was very, very hectic, like over the roof prey drive and not enough balance to cap it. Not a dog 'd have owned.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

IMO, it matters which line the female comes from. I, as a general rule, have added a different line thru the male, not the female. Just my theory, based on dogs I have seen and results from breedings.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Vandal that is how I do it . The female is the foundation , the male brings in the foreign. That is how von Stephanitz developed and rescued the "breed" several times. He always went to the true herding females as a base . 

by the way who is that stunning dog on your new avatar!!

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One litter I walked from had a Czech female and West German Male BUT
The dam was bought solely on her pedigree and had to be removed from the pups when they were 3 weeks old (they were placed with another experienced female for raising) but the dam was so nervy she could not "meet" people. What does THAT tell you.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Lisa and I were talking about that the other day. I think if you look at the Kirschental dogs, that female line is so strong, it seems to be able to endure the show blood that was used so much later on in his program. At least thats the case with the dogs I have seen with that female line. 
Thank you, that is Nogi, she is one of my old line/new line mixes. 
That pedigree is closer than many you see nowadays. Lots of " backmassing" on Enno Beilstein/Lierberg...of course. 
Emoore reminded me that I needed a new avatar, especially when discussing black and red dogs.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

vandal said:


> emoore reminded me that i needed a new avatar, especially when discussing black and red dogs.


:d:d:d:d


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hhooohohoho Donuts . (quoting Homer Simpson)

please share the pedigree.

I got Carmina Sitting Bull specifically for her strong old herding including Enno / Perry Beilstein and Bernd !!

---

the Kirschental dogs, I have opportunity to see quite a few because they are bred "in the area" can't say they are all that . Contacts that I have are not impressed with Kirschental for work . Not to be cynical but that is less a plan than understanding how people look at a pedigree . Barely do people look at the female. Put a famous , show line dog in as the sire and right away you have the attention of show line people -- name brand recognition , or people that think the working dogs are ugly or wrong or too much, they see that show male and there is your "correction".

You can have the best of the best females as your base and people won't even look. Have a close to anonymous female but highly promoted male and you have their attention.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

She is on my web site Carmen, the pedigree is there.

I have not seen more recent dogs from that line, maybe more some years back, before there was so _much_ show blood and the more modern show line blood. Might even be thinking of my own dogs with that line but I know, at some point, I was impressed with that line....just that the years seem to be going by a bit quicker than they used to. I could actually be thinking about a dog from 1990 and remembering it as a few years ago. lol. Frightening.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Without a doubt the female line is the basis of foundation and breeding in a stud is for infusing new blood. The strength of the female is so critical in the big picture. This is why genetics works for me in terms of picking dogs. I am always looking for how a dog will fit into the big picture. With the showline female that I used once I tried the experiment but though this female had a real nice temperament, her genetics were not what I like. The results were not unexpected, but you are always hopeful that maybe it will turn out different. Last time for that experiment....lol.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

BTW, the Kirschental line I was referring to was coming from Blanka Mummelsee . The dogs I have seen with that line running through the bottom line of the pedigree, showed very consistent behaviors. No matter who that line was bred to, I saw pretty much the same type of temperament, drive, and behaviors. A very strong line but that doesn't surprise me, since Blanka was the result of a 2-2 inbreeding. Close breeding is not always a bad thing. Those were some very good dogs.


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