# Neuter or not



## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Hey guys i need an honest opinion from some of you that actually have many experience have intact and neutered male GSD or any large breed ( ofc everyone else is free to reply too )
Cause i read so many articles .so many posts and i get conflicting informations. Are vets telling us to neuter cause the gov make them too ? I read many negAtive effects too . In a way i feel that neutering my dog does not make me a responsible owner but its the other way arround and also feels like i betray my dog. Please share your experience with intact males too.

Thanks
Ace' dad


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

Hi Ace, My breeder advised not to neuter. He felt owner should be responsible by separating from females when necessary. I am tossed on the subject too. It will be interesting to hear people weigh in. 
I have a male 5mos and female 4mos. I will need to make a decision soon.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Vets push it because most American's are not responsible owners and can't keep their pets from "accidentally" reproducing. From what I have seen and read, a male dog will not develop fully if he doesn't have the hormones that are needed. He may look less masculine, leggy, not as thick, etc. My breeder who is also a vet recommends not neutering till at lease 14 months (maybe longer, can't remember). I will wait till he is 2 or older, or never, not sure....haven't decided. I also found out that neutering at a young age can have bone development issues...arthritis, etc. 

For me, since I don't let me dog out of my sight, he is never out with out me being out with him, I feel I can avoid neutering without worrying about him knocking up someone.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have an intact male and have had a few. They need a good bit more management and you face the prospect of enlarged prostate down the road. There are a ton of threads on the topic already. You may want to search the forum. 

Having a female in house adds to the complexity of the topic because, even if you keep them separate, the males may not eat and be severely distracted by the female in the house. Some folks I know board the males during the female heat.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Once your dog is physically mature, then it's up to how responsible you are as a dog owner. If there is a chance he may get loose and that may end up in unwanted puppies, then get him neutered.

If there is NO chance cause you are able to keep him safe and secure, and if his temperament is what you want, and he's trained well to be reliable, then it's up to you. 

More info to help with the decision on --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/172560-best-age-spay-neuter.html


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*Vets push it because most American's are not responsible owners and can't keep their pets from "accidentally" reproducing.*

exactly this 
it takes a lot of supervision and there are other issues that can arise like aggression esp towards other males 
also as mentioned prostate issues down the road 
and other reproductive cancers
there is always a trade off 
also looks are determined more by genetics than early neuter except there seems to be a propensity towards extra bone growth making the dog slightly taller if neutered earlier than later


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I always say it’s a lifestyle decision more than a dog decision. You need to figure out what you want to do with your dog, and how keeping him intact, or her intact will affect that. If you like to go to places where your dog is off-leash with other dogs, more than likely you’ll need to neuter. If you take your dog or plan on taking your dog to daycare…you’ll need to neuter.

It’s not super difficult to keep your dog contained, my dog doesn’t jump a 4 foot fence to wander when/if he smells a female in heat. But when I walk him, I can definitely see the difference in his behavior when a female in heat is in the neighborhood. It’s also quite difficult to get through to him when a female in heat is within 100 feet of him, the only choice is basically physical restraint and then leaving the area.

I’ve heard a lot of horror stories when you have a female and a male intact and the female goes through a heat. Like…doors and walls being broken through. So that’s not something I’d like to put up with. At the same time, I also hate to crate and rotate and don’t need to deal with that for 2 months out of the year. I like that my dogs can be free around the house to do whatever whenever they want and there is no risk of a tie and then whelping a litter of puppies. I like that I can let both my dogs out into the yard in the morning when I’m half awake, and at night when I come home from a night out and am half asleep. There are no worries.

If not clear, I have an intact male, and a spayed female.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> *Vets push it because most American's are not responsible owners and can't keep their pets from "accidentally" reproducing.*
> 
> exactly this
> it takes a lot of supervision and there are other issues that can arise like aggression esp towards other males
> ...


WHAT other reproductive cancers exactly??

There are NONE associated with an intact male, and it's lies like that thrown around by everyone telling you to neuter your dog at 6 weeks old or they'll die before they're 5 of 100 different mysterious cancers.

Intact males are more susceptible to prostatitis and prostate abscesses as they age. Both can kill your dog, but both can also be treated. NEUTERED dogs are more prone to prostate TUMORS that are non - responsive to most treatments and will eventually kill your dog.

There are really no other health defects associated with having an intact male. No cancers linked to testosterone in the body.

I feel pets should be kept intact until sexual maturity (12-18 months preffered) for their own health BENEFIT. But yes, most people can't handle intact animals so they should be neutered if you can not 100% guarantee your dog is not going to jump the fence or go running off.

As far as behavioral issues... it amazes me when "trainers" recommend early castration to avoid a whole list of behavior problems. Long story short - train your dog. And if someone can't train an intact male to be obedient and not mark in their house, I wouldn't want them as a trainer! I have a neutered male I neutered at 9 months, and I have a 16 month working line male, intact. Both are, surprise surprise, very well behaved, social, obedient, neither has ever dared to mark in the house. I have taken the intact male to schutzhund club every week since he was 8 weeks old, and surprise surprise, 30+ intact dogs and ALL of them are extremely well behaved, and all of them are first and foremost family pets that live in a house. Most with other dogs.

The german shepherd i had to euthanize for extreme fear aggression was neutered at 4 months old... i am not saying that is related, because it's not. That's my point. Sexual organs (or lack of) should play ZERO part in a dog's training or behavior.

Now don't get me wrong. Yes an intact male has an increased chance of dog aggression (although I surprisingly find it seems to be neutered males that go after intact males). Yes an intact animal has an increased instance of roaming. My whole point is, train your dog, contain your dog. Things you should be doing with or without balls. 




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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

My opinion would be; allowing any living creature to mature intact is in the creature's best interests......how possibly could there be a counter to this...excepting isolated situations ?

SuperG


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

the veterinarian dr becker recommends neuter for aggression issues so there must be something to it
how about testicular cancer? yes it happens in older intact males 
tumors on the anus or perianal adenomas

*Perianal adenomas are small growths in the muscle around the anus. If not removed when small, they grow until they break through the skin, get infected, smell bad and cause a great deal of discomfort to the dog. While perianal adenomas initially are benign, some progress into highly malignant cancers.*

*Perianal adenomas can be treated by surgical excision or cryosurgery (frozen with liquid nitrogen). If the dog is neutered at the time of surgery, the tumors almost never return. If not neutered, the tumors almost always return. It is extremely rare for a female or a neutered male to have a Perianal adenoma. *
Why neutering Male dogs is important


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I've lived with/owned intact male dogs.

I neutered my GSD when he was 15 months old.

My Dalmatian will be neutered when he is 18 months old.

I prefer to neuter between 18-24 months.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

OP, you are in Georgia--we have essentially a year-round puppy season in most of the Deep South. The number of litters of mixed-breed "oops" puppies euthanized in southern shelters would make a lot of jaws drop -- the number is astronomical. If even half of the people who "intend" to be responsible actually were, we wouldn't be euthanizing THOUSANDS of puppies in the Deep South. 

Nobody _intends _to let their dog make puppies that will die in the shelter. There are lots of well intentioned owners, thinking it will never happen. Then one day the neighbor's hunting dog is in heat, and your intact male smells it while he's out in the backyard for his morning poo. You are the kind of person who keeps an eye on your dog while he's outside in your fenced backyard, but you go in to refill your coffee cup for 30 seconds, as you don't realize what your dog just smelled. In those 30 seconds, he's hopped over the fence and has mounted the female. 

Guess what? Your intact male just made mutt-puppies -- and they could well end up in your local shelter, euthanized (in some parts of the Deep South, that might even be a gassing or heart-stick shelter).

It happens THAT easily. This scenario gets repeated all over, many, many times. There are lots of ueber-experienced, serious dog owners on this board for whom that scenario would never happen. The vast majority of people out there reading are not those kind of owners--they're inexperienced pet homes who don't know what an intact male intent on breeding is capable of. And they have dogs that should never be bred. For most "regular" homes, neutering will keep their dog from bolting making puppies--or getting knocked up by the neighbor dog.

The advice vets are giving is the result of a euthanasia crisis in the United States. If dogs don't get speutered, the numbers won't come down, and puppies will keep on dying in droves.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> As far as behavioral issues... it amazes me when "trainers" recommend early castration to avoid a whole list of behavior problems. Long story short - train your dog. And if someone can't train an intact male to be obedient and not mark in their house, I wouldn't want them as a trainer! I have a neutered male I neutered at 9 months, and I have a 16 month working line male, intact. Both are, surprise surprise, very well behaved, social, obedient, neither has ever dared to mark in the house. I have taken the intact male to schutzhund club every week since he was 8 weeks old, and surprise surprise, 30+ intact dogs and ALL of them are extremely well behaved, and all of them are first and foremost family pets that live in a house. Most with other dogs.


And how often are the 30+ intact dogs allowed to socialize? Cause every Schutzhund club I've ever been to basically doesn't allow dogs to look at each other. It's usually 1 to 2 dogs on a training field at a time and they're always under control because that's what the handlers look for.

MOST people don't look for Schutzhund obedience, or treat their dogs like Schutzhund people treat their dogs. Most people want very social, go anywhere, do anything, play with all the dogs in the neighborhood dogs. If that's the type of dog you want, spaying and neutering is important. As much as people think they can train their dogs to not react to other dogs, the problem is usually the others dogs reacting to yours and then your dog having to defend itself. And yes...the intact animal always gets blamed.

I think the marking thing has basically been debunked, only people living under a rock for the last 40 years still believe that myth. There are a lot of behaviors that are trainable, but many things that relate to dog/dog interaction are not. Two dogs living in the same household, where they grew up together, is on thing. But it's way different when they interact with strange dogs. I'd also always be hesitant about "look at how great my household is" stories when the dogs aren't fully mature yet. Tons of problems start when dogs/bitches turn 2-3.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> the veterinarian dr becker recommends neuter for aggression issues so there must be something to it
> how about testicular cancer? yes it happens in older intact males
> tumors on the anus or perianal adenomas
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I did forget testicular cancer, which is rarely malignant and easily treated (you neuter). Boy that makes me feel kind of dumb. I blame these 12 hour graveyard shifts.

I also do not agree nor do my doctors that perianal adenomas are limited to intact males. I feel that they are becoming more pronounced in neutered dogs mores, or at the very least there is little correlation between the two (I have seen 3 in the last year in my clinic, 1 was an intact male, actually a coworkers dog, 2 were neutered males, both neutered young before 1 year)
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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> the veterinarian dr becker recommends neuter for aggression issues so there must be something to it
> how about testicular cancer? yes it happens in older intact males
> tumors on the anus or perianal adenomas
> 
> ...



Lol, this always made me laugh. So there's a chance for testicular cancer - therefore, let's cut off the balls in advance. 
Well, he can also get cancers in many other body parts and organs, so let's cut them all off so he doesn't get cancer?

Or am I missing something and it's not the act of cutting the balls off that decreases the chances of cancer?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

martemchik said:


> And how often are the 30+ intact dogs allowed to socialize? Cause every Schutzhund club I've ever been to basically doesn't allow dogs to look at each other. It's usually 1 to 2 dogs on a training field at a time and they're always under control because that's what the handlers look for.
> 
> MOST people don't look for Schutzhund obedience, or treat their dogs like Schutzhund people treat their dogs. Most people want very social, go anywhere, do anything, play with all the dogs in the neighborhood dogs. If that's the type of dog you want, spaying and neutering is important. As much as people think they can train their dogs to not react to other dogs, the problem is usually the others dogs reacting to yours and then your dog having to defend itself. And yes...the intact animal always gets blamed.
> 
> I think the marking thing has basically been debunked, only people living under a rock for the last 40 years still believe that myth. There are a lot of behaviors that are trainable, but many things that relate to dog/dog interaction are not. Two dogs living in the same household, where they grew up together, is on thing. But it's way different when they interact with strange dogs. I'd also always be hesitant about "look at how great my household is" stories when the dogs aren't fully mature yet. Tons of problems start when dogs/bitches turn 2-3.


Very little you're right, although we routinely have 3-5 dogs out on the field at the same time working with distractions. 

But i don't like the idea of dogs socializing regardless. With or without a club. Too many poorly trained dogs. Canine's are not meant to have large social groups. Biologically developed to have a bond with a tight pack group and essentially, hate all other canines our of competition. My dog needs to behave around other dogs, be obedient to me, and not try to kill them. But he doesn't have to like them and doesn't have to play with them.

That's neither here nor there though. I simply recommend waiting until 18 months to allow your dog to properly develop. Avoid the numerous health risks that are being associated with castration before a year old. And then neuter. You're still not hitting that 2-3 year mark where yes they can turn into giant dominant jerks. You're still avoiding a lifetime of dealing with an intact dog. You're simply holding out an extra 6-12 months in exchange for possibly avoiding some pretty serious, and deadly, disease process (arthritis, increase instances of torn ACLs, hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma)

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

lala you might want to click the link to the article 
there are indeed cancers associated with animals being left intact as well as other health issues

also anub i do not recall anyone recommending neutering at 6 weeks 
perhaps shelters do that and rescues although it seemed 8 weeks at shelters seemed the norm but that has little bearing on what owners do and folks who adopt from shelters do not seem to mind that their puppy is already altered


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Also, last time I was on the forum everyone was so pro neutering. I was ridiculed because I was so against it. Or maybe because of my reasons for being against it. 

Now the forum went the opposite way. What happened in the few months?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> lala you might want to click the link to the article



That's OK, I'm not neutering no matter what so I don't care))))


ETA but why, how does neutering prevent testicular cancer? Can you explain in a few words? 

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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The problem I have with this discussion, is that for some reason, people tend to throw away the proven fact that the majority of dog owners ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE. It’s been proven time and time again. We all know about how many dogs get euthanized, and we’ve even ran into it on this forum where people planned to spueter one of their animals and then OOOPS they’re making $500 a puppy…

I don’t know OP, or the other person that asked the question, and they could be the most responsible owners in the world. But history says that they’re more than likely not, and we all make mistakes. I personally live in an area with people that speuter, there are very few intact females around (I can tell because my boy rarely reacts), and so it’s a very small worry that he’d hop a fence to get at one.

The research studies that link this cancer with that or that cancer with this, are extremely hazy and not very well done. There is no “control group” and it’s very hard to truly say that something causes this or that. Mostly because dogs live in such different environments, have such different exercise routines, eat different food, and have such differing genetics (between breeds and lines). Those things aren’t looked at. Where the dog came from, who bred it, was testing done before hand? Just the act of neutering/spaying is studied. I’m sure there are plenty of good breeders that have had dogs neutered/spayed that didn’t develop the different cancers people link to that…

So that’s the problem with this discussion…it’s all about the person asking the question. And none of us know this person, or how “trusted” they can be to not allow something to happen. Again, everyone can say they’re responsible, but history has proven otherwise. The statistics on “accidental breedings” have a much higher correlation when you look at people thinking they can prevent one, and then not being able to. Then there is always the chance that one day, someone comes up to that person and offers a hefty stud fee, or a free puppy if they breed their male to their female…and who knows what that person will say at that point? I know I’d think about it…I already have thought about it. If my dog was neutered, it wouldn’t even be an issue of my ethics/morals, the question wouldn’t even come up. But when the dog is intact…you’ll get tested.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*ETA but why, how does neutering prevent testicular cancer? Can you explain in a few words? *
seriously??
the testicles are gone and thus cannot become cancerous??


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Martemchik, you're right. I will stay out of these conversations. 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> That's neither here nor there though. I simply recommend waiting until 18 months to allow your dog to properly develop. Avoid the numerous health risks that are being associated with castration before a year old. And then neuter. You're still not hitting that 2-3 year mark where yes they can turn into giant dominant jerks. You're still avoiding a lifetime of dealing with an intact dog. You're simply holding out an extra 6-12 months in exchange for possibly avoiding some pretty serious, and deadly, disease process (arthritis, increase instances of torn ACLs, hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma)
> 
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I guess I have a different opinion on that because I used to be in the group that loved watching the dog socialize with other dogs. I loved the dog park and seeing the dogs run around and have fun. Now, my priorities have changed and I understand that my dog doesn't need that. But most people...still think the way I used to. So that's why I always question what the OP wants to do with their dog. IF it's going to dog parks, going to doggy events, allowing the dog off-lead freedom in places without expecting 100% recall and obedience at all times...spuetering is smart. If OP is more like the many people on this forum, getting into sport, training like many of us do, then it really doesn't matter.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> *ETA but why, how does neutering prevent testicular cancer? Can you explain in a few words? *
> seriously??
> the testicles are gone and thus cannot become cancerous??



Exactly)))))

That's why I posted originally. So a dog can get kidney cancer. Let's cut them off too, Just in case. 

You pointed me to your article as if something in there says that it's not that you cut them off that prevents it. 





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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I'll try to list my research article sources when I'm awake, not some Web page but actual research papers, but as I've already pointed out, it has been shown that article is wrong on several levels.

Intact males are prone to prostatitis and abscesses, but not prostate cancer.

Neutered males have an increased instance of prostate cancer which responds poorly to treatment.

Intact males obviously able to get testicular cancer, although it is a fairly rare form of cancer in dogs (hard to judge though based on number of intact dogs compared to neutered)

Dogs neutered before a year of age have been shown to have an increased chance, some almost doubled or tripled, of osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, torn ACLs, prostate cancer, increased arthritis, hip dysplasia (likely due to uneven closure of the growth plates from lack of testosterone, therefor causing an irregular gait)



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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Martemchik, you're right. I will stay out of these conversations.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not sure why...

Didn't even see any of your posts lol, too busy ranting away.

I really don't care if people spay/neuter...I have an intact dog, it would be hypocritical for me to tell someone they need to neuter theirs. I just hate that people bring up the medical stuff, not really understanding those studies...just seeing numbers...and really don't bring up the lifestyle risks you're taking.

My intact dog has caused me to make a lifestyle change. I don't mind it, but its a change none the less. Many people don't want to make that change. And people love to claim their intact dogs aren't aggressive towards other dogs...good for them...the majority of intact dogs will have issues with each other...that's a correlation that I don't need to prove with any study, I've seen it all too often at parks and at training when new dog owners allow their dogs to interact a bit too much.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I guess I have a different opinion on that because I used to be in the group that loved watching the dog socialize with other dogs. I loved the dog park and seeing the dogs run around and have fun. Now, my priorities have changed and I understand that my dog doesn't need that. But most people...still think the way I used to. So that's why I always question what the OP wants to do with their dog. IF it's going to dog parks, going to doggy events, allowing the dog off-lead freedom in places without expecting 100% recall and obedience at all times...spuetering is smart. If OP is more like the many people on this forum, getting into sport, training like many of us do, then it really doesn't matter.


I understand that. I just had to explain where I was coming from.

Also, dog parks are horrible ideas in general. Any large group of dogs interacting together. I don't know a trainer that supports them. You want to talk about dog bite central. But that's completely off topic.

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*The problem I have with this discussion, is that for some reason, people tend to throw away the proven fact that the majority of dog owners ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE. It’s been proven time and time again. We all know about how many dogs get euthanized, and we’ve even ran into it on this forum where people planned to spueter one of their animals and then OOOPS they’re making $500 a puppy…*
there have been many oopsies here
which i always find mysterious since the results are often a purebred litter


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*I really don't care if people spay/neuter...I have an intact dog, it would be hypocritical for me to tell someone they need to neuter theirs. I just hate that people bring up the medical stuff, not really understanding those studies...just seeing numbers...and really don't bring up the lifestyle risks you're taking.
*
because calling people irresponsible does not tend to make you friends or make you popular?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Not sure why...
> 
> Didn't even see any of your posts lol, too busy ranting away.
> 
> ...



Because you're right. Most people should neuter. I had to make a huge lifestyle change. 

So since I'm so against neutering for my animals then I will stay out of these threads. I don't want to convince the wrong person to not neuter


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> *The problem I have with this discussion, is that for some reason, people tend to throw away the proven fact that the majority of dog owners ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE. It’s been proven time and time again. We all know about how many dogs get euthanized, and we’ve even ran into it on this forum where people planned to spueter one of their animals and then OOOPS they’re making $500 a puppy…*
> there have been many oopsies here
> which i always find mysterious since the results are often a purebred litter



Lololol 
It's a planned oopsie


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

My GSD Yogi lived 12+ years intact, never once was there any issues. I neutered Nelson JRT, he's worst then before, in many ways. Guy's just seem to have a problem with this subject. You're ego get's in the way of decision making. With that said; your dog won't change one little tiny bit, but should he run away, if he gets out, if there's a female in heat, if the breeding is successful, the initial problem get's worse. Too many if's for this guy, my breeding days are long gone, I will never breed anything again, the heartache supersedes the joy of it, and too many of these *overenthusiastic pet owner's* think and feel their dogs and cats are so beautiful the World need more. It's the owner's who need their cookies tied and bound, not just the dogs. In the wild, there are no vaccines or human interference, and for 40,000 years, they've done fine on their own. Human's breed unnecessarily as well, but what can be done about that without being labeled an awful dictator like Adolf.

SGCSG


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I guess to me it still just comes down to, waiting until 12-18 months old could be the difference between cancer and your dog living to 15. I mean, neutering at 18 months old isn't going to harm the dog one bit. Neutering at 6 months old potentially could. So why can't people be told about the health risks? I feel it's unethical to NOT warn people just because of some shelter agenda. Who are you to decide if they're responsible or not. I hope they are. Maybe they aren't. But it's their dog and they deserve to know all the medical risks regardless. If they still decide to neuter early at least they are fully informed. 

Yes the studies are hard. I would not say they're hazy or poorly done. But hard to control, for sure. For example, studies that look at purebreds, are the intact animals more likely to be better bred?

A study involving over 700 Rottweilers showed that early neutered dogs had a much higher rate of osteosarcoma. Neutered and intact dogs were split pretty evenly, and that's a good sized study. So I tend to trust the results. Now granted, Rottweilers were used because they're prone to osteosarcoma.

Either the same study or a similar one found that female Rottweilers spayed AFTER 6 years old lived on average 30% longer. For a breed that only has an average lifespan of 8 years or so, that's giving the dog 3 extra years.

But yes you have problems. Because they're prone to osteosarcoma would the outcome be different in other breeds? Are the intact animals intact because they tend to be show or working homes and therefor well bred vs. BYB? 
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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I agree with Anubis Star and wait to neuter until 12-18months.

Since our dog had knee surgery due to torn ligament, I've had a couple people mention a recent study that suggested it is better to spay/neuter until dog is fully mature and this may prevent some orthopedic issues. I found a long study, but here is a small quote:

While results of the new study are revealing, Hart said the relationship between neutering and disease-risk remains a complex issue. For example, the increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog’s growth plates as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs.

Specifically, early neutering was associated with an increase in the occurrence of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear and lymphosarcoma in males and of cranial cruciate ligament tear in females. Late neutering was associated with the subsequent occurrence of mast cell tumors and hemangiosarcoma in females.

Furthermore, the new study showed a surprising 100 percent increase, or doubling, of the incidence of hip dysplasia among early-neutered males. Earlier studies had reported a 17 percent increase among all neutered dogs compared to all non-neutered dogs, indicating the importance of the new study in making gender and age-of-neutering comparisons.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

a link to an article which shows how poorly these studies are even understood
complex to say the least

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal .pdf

to me when coupled with the fact that altering just prior to sexual maturity will prevent those elusive oops litters it makes sense to recommend earlier than later altering 

martems assertion that most people are not equipped to handle intact animals is entirely true unfortunately


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

It's really up to every person to make the decision for themself. If you decide to neuter regardless of age there are risks, if you decide to never neuter there are risks. I have yet to see a manual made out for every dog laying out every decision which allows the dog the live to a perfect age with no complications. 

Weigh the pros and cons and make your own decision

Personally Delgado was neutered at 10 months old and has developed just fine, I've never *once* in his life had anyone ask whether he was male or female.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Shade said:


> Personally Delgado was neutered at 10 months old and has developed just fine, I've never *once* in his life had anyone ask whether he was male or female.


Neutering at 10 months old is still better than neutering at 4-6 months old IMO.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don’t have a problem with you guys laying out the medical studies. Giving numbers and statistics, but again, unfortunately those correlations do not prove causation because of so many other factors that affect the dogs included in the study.

The only issue I see is that we lay out these numbers, that look terrible, that all point to keeping an animal intact because otherwise you’re increasing the risk of early death/disease. And the person looks at that data and goes…the negative in one situation is increased disease, the negative in the other situation is chance of puppies and possibly a bit of cash…not really a negative in many people’s minds. So of course you decide to keep your animal intact.

I’m not here to decide who is responsible and who isn’t. But if we talk about statistics, and you want to convince people that they are increasing the chance of their dog developing certain cancers BASED ON STATISTICS, it should be perfectly acceptable to assume BASED ON STATISTICS that the person asking this question isn’t going to be responsible with their intact animal.

Truth is…what shows you’re responsible is that you don’t ask this question to a bunch of strangers over the internet. Mainly because if you are responsible you’re probably connected to a breed group or a kennel club of some sort in real life and get the real important advice there, instead of from a bunch of strangers who don’t really know you and you have no reason to trust anyways.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I’m not here to decide who is responsible and who isn’t. But if we talk about statistics, and you want to convince people that they are increasing the chance of their dog developing certain cancers BASED ON STATISTICS, it should be perfectly acceptable to assume BASED ON STATISTICS that the person asking this question isn’t going to be responsible with their intact animal.



I like reading your posts because of gems like this))))))


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> I guess to me it still just comes down to, waiting until 12-18 months old could be the difference between cancer and your dog living to 15. I mean, neutering at 18 months old isn't going to harm the dog one bit. Neutering at 6 months old potentially could. So why can't people be told about the health risks? I feel it's unethical to NOT warn people just because of some shelter agenda. Who are you to decide if they're responsible or not. I hope they are. Maybe they aren't. But it's their dog and they deserve to know all the medical risks regardless. If they still decide to neuter early at least they are fully informed.
> 
> Yes the studies are hard. I would not say they're hazy or poorly done. But hard to control, for sure. For example, studies that look at purebreds, are the intact animals more likely to be better bred?
> 
> ...



What if in between 6 and 18 months the dog has or sires pups?
I know, not the end of the world. But still. 

I'd be OK with having to pass a test and mandatory training and education to get a dog. Then I wouldn't be quick to suggest neutering. The way it stands today - most people should neuter. I agree. 


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Rusty was neutered last summer at 3 years old for an on going prostate enlargement issue. It was really giving him grief and I felt it was the best thing to do for him. We kept an eye on it for a year, the vet never pushed neuter with me but did finally recommend it. We could have gone the meds route but I didn't want to. I was thankful that he was mature growth wise at 3 years old.

To be honest - had he never had the prostate issue I would have never neutered him. I never had issues that people warn you about with intact dogs. There was a female in heat in class before that got his attention - put a little vicks under his nose and he was fine - but he was never unmanageable. 

I am compelled by the research I did on intact vs. neutered dogs. I personally believe there are more positive health benefits keeping them intact. 

But at the end of the day everyone must do what they believe is best.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I have both a mature male GSD and a 1 year old female GSD in my home. Neither have been neutered and I can attest that it is a royal pain in the rear end to keep them separated when she is in heat. We have to play musical dogs and my male destroyed my blinds obsessing over my female while she was out side in her kennel. I can completely understand the push to alter dogs. Having said that, I have made the personal decision to keep mine both intact. I believe that the dogs are healthier when they are whole. Less stress on the endocrine system, more natural growth and development, and I actually think they stay in better shape and look better until later in life when they have their hormones intact. To me older dogs that have been neutered for years look terrible. We also do IPO and I believe that the hormones allow them to have a more natural aggression level that is helpful in the sport.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I think most people spay/neuter because it's convenient. And it definitely _is_. 

I have a 16 month old intact male, and he lives with 2 intact girls. I don't plan on neutering him. I hope to show him at some point, but even if he doesn't make it to the conformation ring, I still will leave him intact. I don't see any downside to it at this point. If a medical reason comes up that would require it, then sure. 

I sent Russ off to his breeder's house when the girls came into heat several months ago. This past month Sage came back into heat, and I had to keep him here since my breeder was out of town. It was certainly inconvenient to crate and rotate, but not a deal breaker. I just took him to work with me, and he had to be crated at night in the cat room. I admit that I was happy when Sage went out of heat last week, and everyone can be together again. 

As far as having him out and about, he's a good boy. Not aggressive or dog reactive. Oh, and he definitely _knows_ he's a boy, but he doesn't mark. I gave a friend of mine a ride to the the training center last night, and took Russell along with me just to hang out and watch. One of the obedience people came over, with their adult intact male GSD, to see Russ. The man stood about 3 ft away from us, and the dogs were curious about each other, but sat politely at our sides. Russell is a doofus, but he's a well-mannered doofus.  

Having an intact male doesn't necessarily mean you have a crazed beast on your hands. Here's Russ at the training center last night:


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## OklahomaGSDonTheRez (May 29, 2014)

Courtney said:


> Rusty was neutered last summer at 3 years old for an on going prostate enlargement issue. It was really giving him grief and I felt it was the best thing to do for him. We kept an eye on it for a year, the vet never pushed neuter with me but did finally recommend it. We could have gone the meds route but I didn't want to. I was thankful that he was mature growth wise at 3 years old.
> 
> To be honest - had he never had the prostate issue I would have never neutered him. I never had issues that people warn you about with intact dogs. There was a female in heat in class before that got his attention - put a little vicks under his nose and he was fine - but he was never unmanageable.
> 
> ...


 You put vicks on his nose?! Vick's is an extremely pungent ointment when put on humans, I have a hard time believing that that is ok to do to dogs.


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## OklahomaGSDonTheRez (May 29, 2014)

So medical issues and dogs getting loose and mating, how will it affect the temperment of the dog? Will it make him a pansy or will he still be as bold and confident than he would be with his doghood? I wanted a god for a family pet, I chose a GSD because they are protective and can go into beast mode if someone is trying to hurt their family. I do not know how it affects their hormones but I do know that it WILL affect them. Again, I got a GSD because they are bold, strong and confident dogs. I do not want him to become passive because he has no testicles.:help:


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Thanks for replies guys. I may pick this up wrong but from medical perspective seems like there are some good some bad. But there is far from enough study to make the conclusion . 

For those who have intact males i also like to know is there any special care for the dogs that never mate ? Cause i heard from some that they need to gave release or something . Please answer this thanks.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Robk and dogfaeries, thanks for your stories! I think those types of anecdotes are more important than listing off a bunch of percentages that make it look like the dog is going to die 4 years early if you decide to speuter. Part of the decision has to be about the life you have with your dog while its around. If you can handle doing the types of things robk or dogfaeries has to do…go ahead and keep the animals intact, but I know personally, I wouldn’t want to put up with that stuff. Sorry, I’m not dropping MY dog off at the breeder for a month every 6 months because of the terror that would go on at my house. I want to enjoy my dog for the decade that I have him…not lose a year of his life and force him to sit in a kennel in a strange place twice a year.

I’ll add that living with an intact male isn’t the most difficult thing in the world. There really aren’t thousands of stray intact bitches running around your neighborhood, and the chances of your neighbors having one is also very little due to the culture of our society these days and the push towards spuetering. Now, someone did mention you live in the south, and it might be different there, but by me, I very rarely run into an intact female. “Pet” owners generally speuter. So, I can see my boy mark more, or have his nose to the ground a bit more if an intact female was around, but it’s not like he’s choking himself to follow the scent and I can’t correct/control him with a regular collar. But inside a training facility, or something smaller, it does get sketchy and not really fun for me to have to deal with him. And no...there is no special care for an intact male...no such thing as "blue balls."

When it comes to females, you have to realize many times training facilities won’t allow you to train with a female in heat…so consider yourself out for 2 months of the year. AKC also highly frowns upon (or maybe even doesn’t allow) in heat females from showing in the obedience ring. So unless your bitch is on a strict cycle…you can forget about showing around the time you “expect” her to come into heat. And due to the fact that entries have to be in 3 weeks before a show…you might be out of 4-5 months of showing.

The temperament of the dog generally doesn’t change. I’ve heard that you do get more natural aggression due to testosterone, and that’s why K9s are left intact, but you also need to train the dog to harness that aggression and channel it properly. If you don’t, your dog is just as likely to go after a dog as it is a human…I wouldn’t trust an untrained intact dog to protect me any better than an untrained altered dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Ace GSD said:


> Thanks for replies guys. I may pick this up wrong but from medical perspective seems like there are some good some bad. But there is far from enough study to make the conclusion .
> 
> 
> 
> For those who have intact males i also like to know is there any special care for the dogs that never mate ? Cause i heard from some that they need to gave release or something . Please answer this thanks.




You just let them mate with a spayed dog


Lol don't listen to people at the dog park. 



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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

lalachka said:


> You just let them mate with a spayed dog
> 
> 
> Lol don't listen to people at the dog park.
> ...


Lol... Sometime i feel that dog parks are not for german shepherds.. And my dog doesnt really care much for other dogs.. Today we walked by a couple with their dog he walk straight pass the dog to the owner lol... Sometime people come to pet him but he just sit there not even waging tail.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Honestly, it's kind of nice when Russell goes to his breeder's house. I love the big ol' guy, but it's nice to just have the girls here sometimes. They are 4 years old, and he's still a puppy. We get to have some "quiet time" when Russ is at his other mother's house.  Luckily my breeder only lives about 25 miles from me, and all three of my dogs absolutely love to go there. Heck, I want to stay there! It's great. Walking in the woods, playing with other shepherds. Chickens. Koi. I have a terrible time getting them to come back home with me!

Anyway, it's just 3 weeks at a time, LOL, and I go visit Russell when he's out there. He's too involved with playing with his "friends" out there, that he doesn't care if I visit and then leave. Traitor.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Ace GSD said:


> Lol... Sometime i feel that dog parks are not for german shepherds.. And my dog doesnt really care much for other dogs.. Today we walked by a couple with their dog he walk straight pass the dog to the owner lol... Sometime people come to pet him but he just sit there not even waging tail.



They're not. And not for many other dogs either. 
Some gsds do enjoy playing with other dogs and it's a good energy waster but it's usually 1-2 dogs they know. Def not too social. 

Dog parks are a bad idea for most dogs but some people don't have any other places they can take their dogs off leash. 

And the most clueless owners can be found at a dog park. It's actually amusing. I love listening to conversations about dog training and behavior (mine is not a dog park but a park where dogs are allowed at night off leash)


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> So a dog can get kidney cancer. Let's cut them off too, Just in case.


Really?  Need I point out that a dog can't live without kidneys but can live perfectly fine without reproductive organs? Straw man arguments are so unproductive.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

OklahomaGSDonTheRez said:


> You put vicks on his nose?! Vick's is an extremely pungent ointment when put on humans, I have a hard time believing that that is ok to do to dogs.


haha A little smear of it is fine, I promise


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

mate with a spayed dog??
you are joking
people are you aware dogs mate for one reason and that is hormone driven to reproduce??
no spayed female feels like "getting it on"
wow
just
wow


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> mate with a spayed dog??
> 
> you are joking
> 
> ...



I was joking. I thought it was obvious. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Really?  Need I point out that a dog can't live without kidneys but can live perfectly fine without reproductive organs? Straw man arguments are so unproductive.



It's the same logic. I was waiting for this answer though. 

So the argument is, if the body part might get cancer and the dog can live without it then cut it off? What about the spleen then? Also, a dog can live with 3 legs. My friend's dog just got lumps on his leg and if they come back his leg might need to be amputated. Let's cut off a leg or two. They can live without it. 


I can argue that a dog can live without the balls but it's not 100% life

No straw man here


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

that is what you fail to see is that yes it is 100% life
dogs are not humans and do not miss what they never had
even if they had it they do not miss it
dogs live in the moment so why would you think they are not 100% living??
do you think they sit around pining for their testicles??

and no your post did not strike me as a joke
because people think dogs procreate for fun and enjoyment apparently
there is a reason it is called procreate  
the only time a female would allow a male to mount and mate with her is because she is in standing heat
furthermore that is what gets the male of the species interested is that a female is ready to breed to create offspring

*So the argument is, if the body part might get cancer and the dog can live without it then cut it off? *
no
you missed the point pages back
someone just asked about testosterone related cancer and testicular cancer is one of them
neutering is about far more than avoiding testicular cancer
that just happens to be one of the benefits


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> that is what you fail to see is that yes it is 100% life
> dogs are not humans and do not miss what they never had
> even if they had it they do not miss it
> dogs live in the moment so why would you think they are not 100% living??
> ...



Read the entire post and see what it was replied to. 
You swear that everyone is dumb and you're the only one that knows everything. 

About neutering. 
I didn't say anything about them missing their balls. I said it's not 100% because they're missing the hormones. Hormones are there for a reason. Most times I hear about neutering, the two 'benefits' thrown out are convenience and testicular cancer. And you can't use the risk of testicular cancer as a reason to neuter because by that logic everything that the dogs 'can live without' and that can possibly get cancer should be cut off. 

I don't want to go on about it. I've said before, most people should neuter so I don't want to end up convincing someone not to. 




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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I was going to (and should've) posted

'He needs to be jerked off regularly. Lol don't listen to people at the dog parks'

You're really posting a freaking lecture about why dogs mate? Get over yourself. 


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

years and years of neutering and spaying proves dogs can do just fine without sex hormones

*And you can't use the risk of testicular cancer as a reason to neuter because by that logic everything that the dogs 'can live without' and that can possibly get cancer should be cut off. *
once again i never said anything neutering _just_ to avoid testicular cancer 

yet you are still going overboard saying chop the dog up and lop off any part that could get cancer


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> years and years of neutering and spaying proves dogs can do just fine without sex hormones
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They can, I was using that to argue the point of using testicular cancer as a reason to neuter. That's the only reason I'm saying all this. 

When I was pressed to neuter that was the reasons I was given by the vets and it did strike me as making no sense. 

If there are other reasons - then good, I was only given this one and it didn't make sense to me. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree that it is not 100% life. Sorry. Removing the dog's testicles does make a difference, especially when the dog is very young. When that dog dies of prostate cancer at age 6, your veterinarian is not going to say, "yeah, well early neutering does increase the risk of prostate cancer." 

But, there are the differences in how they look too, and how they grow. If the long bones grow even a half inch longer (and I believe it is a lot more than that), how do those longer bones fit in the sockets of the hips? If we left well enough alone until the dog was fully grown, maybe the dog would have less trouble down the line. 

And then people will say, my dog was neutered young and he does not have HD. And so the total argument is, that it doesn't cause HD because A dog somewhere did not have a problem with it. HD does not always give signs, and how many people take their neutered pet to the vet to do a hip x-ray if the dog is not symptomatic? Really?

And when the dog is aged, 7 or 8 in a neutered dog, people just expect the joints to be giving trouble by then, so why bother to x-ray them, it's the breed. Whatever. 7 years later you do not link up the effects of early spay-neuter.

Cujo was neutered at 14 weeks old. He was tall, leggy, had a girly face, and did not develop certain mail traits. He also had skin issues. I have his litter mates, Babs and Jenna who are going to be 9 in August. Neither has skin issues. All along they fed Cujo what I was feeding my girls because I was buying the food. At two years old, Cujo developed epilepsy.

Now it was idiopathic epilepsy, and no one links that to early spay-neuter. But, so far after 9 years, no other dog of mine has epilepsy. One had a siezure at 6 months after a rabies shot, but the dog will be 5 next month and has not had a recurrence. So the percentages, do not indicate that it is a genetic issue in the lines. What then? I have heard that people who have had problems with anesthesia in operations sometimes develop siezures afterwards. Why not dogs? Couple that with my vet (who pushes neutering at 4 months old) told me I would be surprised how many dogs in their clinic have epilepsy, I have to wonder why? Could it be related to the type of anestesia, problems with anesthetic in the surgery, or possibly even some sort of balance in the system that goes off-kilter when you remove certain hormone-producing glands. 

I do not have the means to run a study on the neutering and epilepsy, and frankly, veterinarians do not even want to consider the possibilities. 

It used to be taught in vet school to press early spay/neuter. Not because veterinarians are all worried about all the dogs putting down in the shelters -- yes some are. But the reason it was pushed, it was explained to the vet students, that people will spend money on their new dogs for the honeymoon period and then they will taper off wanting to spend money on their dogs. So get them to neuter them quick before the honeymoon is over. Because after the sets of puppy shots, the next time you see the dog is when it is having old-age complaints. 

Yes, most of us take them in for vaccinations with varying frequencies, but after living with a dog from a number of months, the need to nick the nads, becomes less urgent if the dog isn't displaying any problems with leaving them alone. 

I had a male, Rushie, who had all his parts, and lived with a passel of intact bitches, (admittedly, I am set up to separate dogs), but he was never a pain in the neck. Gosh, I always have someone in heat it seems. Currently Gretta is and Bear, and Lassie and Karma and Babsy just came out. I used to take Rushie to every class the bitches dropped out of because they came in season.

Rushie wasn't dog aggressive. He passed the CGC 6 or 8 separate times, he got his TDI and he went to shows and got an RN, all prior to my selling him at 4 years. He never barked or lunged or acted like an idiot to other dogs when I had him. When the new owner had him, he displayed less than fondness to his daughter's pugs. But different handling perhaps means different reactions. I had him around dogs and people and he was the stable dog the trainers would put the nutcases next to, because my dog would not react. 

And now there is Bailey. He was neutered, and I think very young. He looks like Cujo reincarnated. I certainly hope he does not have some of the problems Cujo had. I hope he does not die of cancer at the age of 7 like Cujo did. Cujo did not have 100% of life. Maybe he wouldn't have had as full of a life no matter what we did. But I will never neuter a dog without a reason (specific problem with the organ in question) again. I will risk testicular cancer which could possibly occur naturally, rather than increase the risk of other cancers whose prognosis is much worse.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

dogfaeries said:


> I think most people spay/neuter because it's convenient. And it definitely _is_.


Comments like these set me off like none other.

I spay/neuter because it is what is best for MY dogs. And what is best for each dog depends on the situation. 

I've heard and read all the arguments for or against. My dogs will never have puppies. I'm not interested in breeding. I take in rescue dogs who sometimes have issues. Issues that it would be potentially dangerous to leave the dog intact. 

So no I don't do it because its convenient. I do it because it is the right thing to do in my situation and I think it is wrong to assume MOST do it because its convenient. In fact when someone assumes that its because its convenient that makes sad.

I know my dogs might get cancer and die sooner, I know they might be taller or have incontinence issues when older. But you know what they are alive. Which is something they wouldn't be if they attacked and bit someone.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

No one should force someone into anything they are not comfortable with. It is a pet owners choice to spay or neuter. I got dex done 8 months ago because it was the right choice for my situation. I have heard it all, "you are a monster for not fixing your pet" blahh blahh but it boils down to what is right for dog and owner. 

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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have never owned a dog that was intact past the age of two, most were fixed between 6 months and a year. I have never noticed a difference in how they looked or how they grew . Average life span of 11-16 depending on the dog. I don't fix them because it's convenient, I fix them because that is what works for me. As long as I'm not seeing any issues with them being fixed, I will always continue to do so. Dogs get cancer and hip dysplasia if they are fixed , they get it if they aren't. Vaccines, food, and genes all play a role and probably a bigger role then if they are spayed or neutered. The only thing that is proven is a female with pyometra gets it because they aren't fixed .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a lot of intact females, and most have never been bred. All my dogs have been to classes, and none of them have ever bitten a person or other dog, other than myself or my own dogs, and each of those few incidents were probably on me. None of them had anything to do with their hormones. No pyometra here yet, or mammary cancer. Maybe experiencing that will change my feelings on the subject. And maybe not. I understand the risk. 

It kind of makes me sad that people believe that dogs will be monsters if they are left intact. 

But I agree that it ought to be the pet owner's choice to alter their animal. I altered Cujo before giving him to my parents. I thought he would be easier to handle. It was a mistake. But it did not change the fact that he was very much loved and he did have a good life, overall.

It is a condition of being mortal that creatures will have a variety of issues and will in the end succumb to one issue or another if they are not helped to pass either intentionally or accidentally. I think that we do the best we can, and if we think feeding the dog certain foods, exercising them each day, limiting vaccinations, vaccinating against killers, protecting them against parasites and worms, and limiting the pesticides our dogs are exposed/subjected to, might give them a better quality of life, we go ahead and do so. I think some of us feel that altering or not altering the dog will improve their quality of life. We make that decision for our dogs.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Comments like these set me off like none other.
> 
> I spay/neuter because it is what is best for MY dogs. And what is best for each dog depends on the situation.
> 
> ...


You say you do it because it's best for your dog. Then you go on to say that yeah they might get cancer or be incontinent but at least they're alive and they wouldn't be if they bit someone. 

So it does come down to convenience. Aggressive dogs can be managed but it goes beyond inconvenient. It's almost a second job. 

Also, you're making it sound like i'd a dog is not neutered it will bite. That's not true. Also, just because a dog is neutered doesn't mean it won't bite. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> No one should force someone into anything they are not comfortable with. It is a pet owners choice to spay or neuter. I got dex done 8 months ago because it was the right choice for my situation. I have heard it all, "you are a monster for not fixing your pet" blahh blahh but it boils down to what is right for dog and owner.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I totally agree and I don't tell anyone what to do with their dogs


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

When rescued the shiggs I had to endure a 1 hour speech about "dexter not being neutured and how it will give him cancer and it is the responsible pet parent thing to do, all these puppies with no homes bc people like me did not fix my dog" lol dhe went on as if dexy was a smooth talking player fathering pups left right n center. Dex really was not and our choice to neuter had nothing to do with him maybe becoming a dad. Lol some people are fanatics. 

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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

lalachka said:


> You say you do it because it's best for your dog. Then you go on to say that yeah they might get cancer or be incontinent but at least they're alive and they wouldn't be if they bit someone.
> 
> So it does come down to convenience. Aggressive dogs can be managed but it goes beyond inconvenient. It's almost a second job.
> 
> ...


Oh right. Let me ask you how many of those dogs you have manged? I currently have 4. A genetically fearful puppy, a 8 year old rescue who was beat and left with a infected tail so bad it had to be removed and a rock the size of a quarter in her stomach, a 3 year old pit/lab/border mix who had scabs on his neck when we got him at 5 months most likely from a shock collar, and a almost normal all black lab mix who was just left behind because of her color. Do you think they could all be managed together if they were intact? That is not convenience it is a choice! I chose rescue. For the most part to even get a rescue they are neutered/spayed before you get them and if you want another one all the dogs in the house have to be neutered/spayed. That is a choice! 

As to preventing bites, no it won't prevent it, any dog can bite. A neutered dog is far less likely to make the escape attempt to get out therefore cutting down on the chances of a bite. If I had a million dollars I would have a dig proof, jump proof, dog escape proof yard. I don't. 

Now if I had a million dollars, one good dog from a breeder, and didn't work then yeah I might have an intact dog. If I spayed or neutered that dog then you can say it was a convenience. 

Until then to say it is convenient is just being subjective.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

This debate always stirs emotions. There is never a winning argument. Each dog owner has to make the decision for them selves and their own pets. In the end, most do what is right for their own situations. I cannot tell another person what is best for them or their dogs.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Comments like these set me off like none other.
> 
> I spay/neuter because it is what is best for MY dogs. And what is best for each dog depends on the situation.
> 
> ...


No really it is for conveinence. 

I hope it's already been made clear that being intact does not make your dog more aggressive.....

As for oops litters, neutering is easier than ensuring secure confinement for life. Therefor, convenience. It is what it is. Don't become offended by an action, just take it for what it is. 

One of the biggest reason I can leave berlin intact with peace of mind, he is with me 100% of the time. Work, home, etc

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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Oh right. Let me ask you how many of those dogs you have manged? I currently have 4. A genetically fearful puppy, a 8 year old rescue who was beat and left with a infected tail so bad it had to be removed and a rock the size of a quarter in her stomach, a 3 year old pit/lab/border mix who had scabs on his neck when we got him at 5 months most likely from a shock collar, and a almost normal all black lab mix who was just left behind because of her color. Do you think they could all be managed together if they were intact? That is not convenience it is a choice! I chose rescue. For the most part to even get a rescue they are neutered/spayed before you get them and if you want another one all the dogs in the house have to be neutered/spayed. That is a choice!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I said that managing aggressive dogs goes beyond convenience, it's almost a second job. It's hard to do, requires lots of time and effort. 

Managing unneutered non aggressive dogs can be complicated, it depends. 

I have a reactive dog, so I got a taste of what it'd be to manage an aggressive one. My friends have an aggressive one, I see what they do. 

We both do the same things really, dogs are never off leash, avoid places with too many people, kids and dogs and on and on. 

This has nothing to do with neutering though. 


I'm not judging you for neutering, why are you getting worked up. But it is done for convenience and you said it yourself but in different words. 

There's nothing wrong with doing that, if neutering helps you being able to save a bunch of dogs then good. 

But it is what it is. It doesn't make you a bad person, you realistically assessed your capabilities and made decisions based on them. Very responsible. 

Besides, once again, I don't tell people what to do with their dogs.





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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> No really it is for conveinence.


No really its not. Nevada state law requires it to adopt or rescue.

Nevada Consolidated Dog Laws

Las Vegas requires it for all by 4 months unless special strict cases. 

https://animallawcoalition.com/las-vegas-mandates-spayneuter/

BTW you spelled convenience wrong.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> Comments like these set me off like none other.
> 
> I spay/neuter because it is what is best for MY dogs. And what is best for each dog depends on the situation.
> 
> ...



Since it was my quote about convenience, I'll reply to this. ^

I've been grooming dogs for 37 years. That's A LOT of dogs. I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of the dogs that I have seen in all those years have been spayed and neutered. Almost every puppy that I have groomed, at 6 months gets spayed/neutered. My customers tell me that they are doing it because they don't want to deal with an intact dog or bitch. _At all. _So it IS convenience. As someone who has intact dogs, I can tell you that it is _highly_ inconvenient to deal with all the hooha that goes along with it. Would my life be easier with these guys spayed/neutered? You bet!

How other people manage their dogs is their business. I seriously don't care who spays or neuters, or why they do or they don't. As long as people are responsible, what difference does it make it?


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## scout172 (Sep 14, 2013)

eddie1976E said:


> Vets push it because most American's are not responsible owners and can't keep their pets from "accidentally" reproducing. From what I have seen and read, a male dog will not develop fully if he doesn't have the hormones that are needed. He may look less masculine, leggy, not as thick, etc. My breeder who is also a vet recommends not neutering till at lease 14 months (maybe longer, can't remember). I will wait till he is 2 or older, or never, not sure....haven't decided. I also found out that neutering at a young age can have bone development issues...arthritis, etc.
> 
> For me, since I don't let me dog out of my sight, he is never out with out me being out with him, I feel I can avoid neutering without worrying about him knocking up someone.


I agree with the " responsible owners can't keep thier pets from" accidentally" reproducing".


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

scout172 said:


> I agree with the " responsible owners can't keep thier pets from" accidentally" reproducing".


especially when you can get couple hundred bucks easy huh ?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

You know it occurs to me if so many people think that its convenient to have altered pets that must mean it is terrible inconvenient to have unaltered ones. 

It must really suck!  Glad all my pets are sputered.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Oh yeah, I forgot to comment on what selzer said about why vets push neutering early

This bothered me for a while, I couldn't understand the reasoning. I Thought maybe because they wanted the money ASAP but it didn't make much sense. 

Now it makes all the sense and if this is really true then it's pretty disgusting. 

But then again, there are people molesting little kids, torturing people, killing people. I guess not the worst crime in the world. 
Just sad if this is really true. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> You know it occurs to me if so many people think that its convenient to have altered pets that must mean it is terrible inconvenient to have unaltered ones.
> 
> 
> 
> It must really suck!  Glad all my pets are sputered.



Actually, no. I'm not doing anything that I wouldn't be doing if he was neutered. So maybe for people living in the city with leash laws and only one dog there's not too much difference. 

Then again, some people at the park neutered because their dogs were humping or because they didn't want to deal with heat. I have a boy so not heat for me. Not a big difference. 

I do have two unfixed cats and I have more trouble from them being unfixed than my dog. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> You know it occurs to me if so many people think that its convenient to have altered pets that must mean it is terrible inconvenient to have unaltered ones.
> 
> 
> 
> It must really suck!  Glad all my pets are sputered.



But why are you taking this as a personal attack? Even if you do fix out of convenience, so what? You think that makes you a lazy owner?

I'm most def a lazy owner. And I'm OK with it. I do the best I can


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> No really it is for conveinence.
> 
> I hope it's already been made clear that being intact does not make your dog more aggressive.....
> 
> ...



I hope this comment was meant for the post it was posted under because I don't do it for convenience. I have a large pack and would spay or neuter whether I have 1 or 10 dogs. I am not worried about about any male of mine getting out of the yard to wander whether they are fixed or not, my dogs are always secure and with me. I weigh the options for what can happen to them medically, take into consideration what I have seen medically intact versus not intact, and do what I think is best for any if my pets. I don't do anything for the sake of convenience.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

I neutered my dog just before he turned one years old. I can't quite remember why but when I think of it it really was done for convenience. The last thing I wanted was an oops litter even if I did think he would have made some great puppies.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

mine are not altered merely for convenience
although i agree life is easier with them fixed
my youngest was neutered because dog to dog aggression is often higher in intact males and we occasionally have a foster dog and rather than crate and rotate for life we chose to neuter
interesting word neuter
means make neutral and thats what happened
he is much less territorial now

there are other sex related behaviors as well as health issues i personally would rather avoid and do not blame anyone else for wanting too either
there is really no need to subject oneself to those behaviors to somehow prove you are "more responsible " or "smarter" which is how i perceive some of you are arguing
some of us just don't need to try to prove something


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

"I think the marking thing has basically been debunked, only people living under a rock for the last 40 years still believe that myth."

To be honest I thought it was a myth as well. That was until I adopted a 4 year old intact chihuahua. I had no intentions of neutering him, none at all. Then I got him home. This dog marked EVERYTHING! If you put a piece of paper on the floor, he'd mark it. The furniture, the rug, the TV stand, clean laundry, and pretty much anything "new" that was set on the floor. I had him for 6 months, doing back to the basics potty training with zero success. Honestly I never believed the hype about neutering and marking. And I started to think, this dog is 4 years old, this behavior is ingrained in him, if it's behavioral how the heck will neutering help.

Well guess what, about a month or so after he was neutered he stopped marking in the house. Now granted he wasn't magically potty trained, but he stopped doing to 2 squirts here 2 squirts there...if he peed it was an all out potty break. In 1 month I will have had him for a year, and I can officially say that it's been at least a month without an accident. And this is a dog that could pee inside 3-5 times a day, and poop twice, even though he went potty outside.

After this incident, I truly believe the neuter stopped the marking. And to be honest I don't think we would have gotten to where we are today had I decided to keep him intact.

However that doesn't mean I think all dogs need to be altered, each dog is different as is each owner and you have to do what makes you most comfortable. I will most likely alter all my dogs, but not until they are around 2 years old..


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

that has been my observation as well Lauren
marking here stopped too post neuter


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I have 3 intact gsd males. No dog aggression, no marking at home (will on walks, no big deal). Small dog marking is a whole different deal, no clue why they mark so much but big dogs, I've never had an issue, never had one mark inside even with bitches in heat. The small dogs I've seen tend to mark constantly inside, outside, any side. IME

Josie on here has an intact male (does PSA) and she fosters gsd's (all males to date). Zero dog aggression in every single case. 

Dog aggression is about the dog, not intact-ness.

Spay/neuter is a personal choice. OP asked for opinions and like anything else will get points of view from both sides, weigh those opinions, what they are based on and make his/her own decision.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I have an intact dog and he is very aggressive. But I don't think it's because he's not fixed, it's just his temperament. He doesn't mark inside but he does outside, other than that he's a very good dog.

I did get Xena spayed because it was convenient, I figured it was easier to spay her than to neuter Eko and have her still be able to get pregnant by some other male dog. Plus she's smaller, so I thought it would be okay to do it at 6 months. It made her incontinence worse, I think, and she did develop epilepsy a month or two later, but I couldn't say it was related. She just seems to have been from a really awful breeding and is a genetic mess.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i find it ironic that so many even in the face of date and literature to the contrary
claim testosterone does not cause same sex aggression 

it seems you have forgotten breeding rights and yes there are dozens and dozens of studies that state intact males can be more territorial 
they are biologically designed that way to be able to fend off competing males for breeding rights

you really think testosterone exists only to make the male look good?

this statement comes from the highly revered dr karen becker
is she right about everything else but wrong about this?

*If your dog becomes assertive, desexing (a full neuter) can be an important part of managing long-term behavior issues. Again, in this instance, if you have an aggressive dog, we must evaluate the risks vs. benefits. The health benefits of leaving a temperamental dog intact do not outweigh the greater risk of this aggressive animal being re-homed, dumped, or abused – or hurting another animal or human. With behavior issues, spaying or neutering can be a logical choice. It’s better to have endocrine disease but be in a loving home, than be disease-free but dumped at a kill shelter for a behavior problem.*


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

lalachka said:


> But why are you taking this as a personal attack? Even if you do fix out of convenience, so what? You think that makes you a lazy owner?
> 
> I'm most def a lazy owner. And I'm OK with it. I do the best I can
> 
> ...


Because I'm not a lazy owner. I work hard to get my dogs to the point where they can function. It is not a convenience but a necessity.

Like Llombardo said I weigh the options about what is best for my dogs, be it getting out of the yard, be it fearfulness, be it multi-dog household and I take into consideration state laws and then I do what is best for my dogs and what is best has always been altering them. 

I find calling it a convenience to be insulting.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I have always had intact males and intact females. Never had an oops litter and never had any aggression issues between anyone of any gender even when a bitch is in heat. The mulitple boys will hang together and gaze longingly at the female in a different room (week two add in the whining, lack of appetite but no fighting). If an unknown male were to enter the situation now that would be a different story (and being neutered would not change it)

Having said that, I am a strong leader and have been doing this for 30+ years, they know their pecking order, and I am very selective in choosing my dogs. Temperament is of upmost and equal importance as health. I've had a weaked nerve dog in the past and do my due dilegence to avoid going down that road again. It doesn't mean it can't happen but making choices that stack in favor of good temperament lessens the possibility.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> there is really no need to subject oneself to those behaviors to somehow prove you are "more responsible " or "smarter" which is how i perceive some of you are arguing
> some of us just don't need to try to prove something


Well, since you brought this up. I didn't leave my dog intact because I needed to prove something. As I said, I don't do anything because he's unneutered that I wouldn't be doing otherwise. 

I just can't imagine making him go through a surgery for no reason, for some chance that later on he might develop cancer. If he does - I will neuter then. 

I wouldn't spay if I had a female though that sounds like more work.

I'm extremely lazy, the stuff I do because I'm lazy is funny and sad at the same time. So I'm never looking for extra chores. But I feel that fixing my dog because I don't feel like dealing with POSSIBLE hormone related aggression is wrong. 

I'm not judging those that do. For me, neutering wasn't even an option, it was never considered. 


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Well, since you brought this up. I didn't leave my dog intact because I needed to prove something. As I said, I don't do anything because he's unneutered that I wouldn't be doing otherwise.
> 
> I just can't imagine making him go through a surgery for no reason, for some chance that later on he might develop cancer. If he does - I will neuter then.
> 
> ...


Yup i think Noone should take that from a dog just for convenient . that is really wrong in my opinion. I am more and more and more convinced to leave my dog intact.
They leave their live in our hand so i think its only fair i give just as much...
He is a dog not a human i know.. and i dont plan on treating him like a human but at least i wont take what is his just cause its convenient.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Ace GSD said:


> Yup i think Noone should take that from a dog just for convenient . that is really wrong in my opinion. I am more and more and more convinced to leave my dog intact.
> They leave their live in our hand so i think its only fair i give just as much...
> He is a dog not a human i know.. and i dont plan on treating him like a human but at least i wont take what is his just cause its convenient.



It is true though that a dog might have aggression problems. You also do have to be responsible and make sure he's never left unattended. 

So I also think it's important to be honest with yourself about how much you're willing to deal with. If you decide not to neuter now while he's around 6 months then later on, even if he does develop aggression - it's too late to neuter and hope for results. 


And aggression is no joke. It takes all the joy away from having a dog (in most people's eyes). No one can get near him, you can't be in areas with people (too much risk), he's NEVER off leash and on and on. 

It really does come down to an individual person. I think it's more responsible to neuter because you decide that you want to minimize the chance of aggression than not neuter, the dog develops aggression and you don't do what's needed. Also, what's needed is expensive training. 

So doing the right thing means evaluating everything and being honest about how much you're willing to put up with. 

Again, I'm giving my opinions. I'm never judging anyone for neutering though I've been judged and rudely for not neutering


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

This is really a decision that needs to be made in regards to each individual dog, and each person and their level of involvement with their dogs. 

I have a spayed mixed breed, and an intact male. I used to believe all that people said about un-neutered males - that if left intact, all males will be dominant, aggressive, will spray and mark, will run-away, will be impossible to live with, etc, etc. 

But then all the males in my SchH club were intact. I was so impressed with these dogs! Best behaved, most obedient, most confident, easy-going dogs that could kick-ass on the field that I ever saw! Completely changed my mind about neutering dogs, and realized that a dog's behaviour is a combination of training and genetics, and not so much hormones. 

My rescued female I got spayed, and I do plan on spaying future females that I may own: Yes, for convenience, and yes to be responsible, and yes because I do not want to put my female through an unwanted pregnancy, and yes because the last thing we need in this world is another litter of unwanted mixed breed dogs of unknown background. And yes now that I have an intact male in the house, all I can think of is "Thank goodness Keeta is spayed!" - 

My male I have left intact, because I can't think of a single reason to neuter him: He is so obedient and well behaved and easy going. A joy to live with, balls and all. But my dogs are with me almost every day, and always under supervision, and I feel confident in my ability to control them. 
People are shocked to learn that Gryffon is intact - in their minds, intact dogs are supposed to be monsters (I can relate, I used to have the same misconception) - and then argue that Gryffon is probably a rare case of an intact dog being so good with people and other dogs - hard to get it through people's previous beliefs that a dog's temperament is genetic, and not 100% how you raise them, as many people still insist. 

Yet, if people ask for my advice on neutering or spaying, (as in the general public - not people on the forum who are in general more knowledgeable and educated about dog issues), I usually recommend neuter or spay once the dog is mature as I know for a fact that the general public is just not as involved in their dogs and do not have the level of responsibility that most of us do. 

I do not feel that neutering or spaying are right are wrong - there are specific reasons to neuter or spay, or to leave intact, and each owner needs to make that decision that fits best for them. And I hope no one feels the need to look down on others who have made different decisions.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

lalachka said:


> It is true though that a dog might have aggression problems. You also do have to be responsible and make sure he's never left unattended.
> 
> So I also think it's important to be honest with yourself about how much you're willing to deal with. If you decide not to neuter now while he's around 6 months then later on, even if he does develop aggression - it's too late to neuter and hope for results.
> 
> ...


Maybe i see what i only want to see but correct me if im wrong... Aggressiveness is not so much hormonal but the dogs own personality ?
When you say aggressive is that towards other dogs only or both human and dogs ? Also is the agression seasonal or all the time ? Or when there are female in heat ?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Ace GSD said:


> Maybe i see what i only want to see but correct me if im wrong... Aggressiveness is not so much hormonal but the dogs own personality ?
> 
> When you say aggressive is that towards other dogs only or both human and dogs ? Also is the agression seasonal or all the time ? Or when there are female in heat ?



It can be both hormonal and personality. 

Aggressive can be to both humans and dogs. If the dog is aggressive then it's not seasonal. When there's a female in heat they just get restless and don't listen to you. They're so focused on the female that they block you out. I've had to leave the area before when there was a female in heat. 

If there are other unneutered males and there's a female in heat then there might be fights. 

All dogs are different. Some are more sexual, some are less. Mine is a mild case. My friend's dog is unruly around females in heat. 


Neutering does help with some aggression if done at a young age. Not in all cases but I guess it's often enough that it's recommended for curbing aggression. 





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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> It's the same logic.


Sorry, but no, it's not the same at all. 



lalachka said:


> So the argument is, if the body part might get cancer and the dog can live without it then cut it off?


No, that's not the argument, but that's what you're trying to turn it into. *IF* that were the *ONLY* reason why anyone would ever neuter their dog, then you could argue that it's the same logic.....except for the fact that you're still comparing something a dog can live without with something that a dog _can't_ live without. It's simply a false comparison. 

I don't care what you do with your own dog. I don't care what anyone else does with their dog/s. But arguments like the above are just silly and pointless, and add nothing to the discussion.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sorry, but no, it's not the same at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So what's the argument for the testicular cancer? No one is answering it. 

Maybe that's not the only reason, as I said earlier, when I was pressed to neuter I was given two reasons, oops litters and testicular cancer. 

So again, what's the argument for testicular cancer? Why is it OK to cut off the balls to prevent testicular cancer? Because the dog can live without them? Or what is it?
What's the logic?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

lala i tried to explain before that imo the risk of testicular cancer is not a good enough reason _by itself_ to neuter
however i will add that as dogs age that risk goes up 
but still _by itself_ it is not the sole reason anyone ought to neuter
there are many benefits to neutering your dog especially once it reaches maturity
the risk of testicular cancer being zero after neuter is but one of them

* I know for a fact that the general public is just not as involved in their dogs and do not have the level of responsibility that most of us do. *
this
and this is the reason imo as well that the general public should neuter
when you consider at least 1/2 the general population should not even own dogs having them altered is the most reasonable choice


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No, that's not the argument, but that's what you're trying to turn it into. *IF* that were the *ONLY* reason why anyone would ever neuter their dog, then you could argue that it's the same logic.....except for the fact that you're still comparing something a dog can live without with something that a dog _can't_ live without. It's simply a false comparison.
> 
> .



Whether this is the only reason for neutering or not makes no difference for the argument that this reason alone is invalid. 

I'm just saying that if this is the logic (it can get cancerous and the dog can live without it them cut it off just in case) then it's faulty logic. I can name a few things that can get cancers and the dog can live without (spleen, leg). 

Here's why I have a problem with it. There are reasons to neuter, oops litters, chance of aggression, maybe a few other things. 

I feel like the testicular cancer is thrown in there for weight alone, to add on top of things and it's not a valid reason. The logic is faulty. 

Unless I'm misunderstanding the argument for it. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> lala i tried to explain before that imo the risk of testicular cancer is not a good enough reason _by itself_ to neuter
> however i will add that as dogs age that risk goes up
> but still _by itself_ it is not the sole reason anyone ought to neuter
> there are many benefits to neutering your dog especially once it reaches maturity
> ...



Yeah, I just said the same thing in diff words. Neutering has many reasons, I'm not denying it. I just feel like the testicular cancer is thrown on top of it for weight alone, to make it more convincing. And the argument for it is faulty. That makes me doubt everything else that doc says. 

If he can't see the problem with this argument then I don't know what to say. 


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

since our breed is predisposed if people want to neuter solely because of that then more power to them

The National Canine Cancer Foundation - Testicular Tumors


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

And yes, most people should most def neuter. I feel bad that I might be adding to the problem by convincing someone not to, it's not my intention.

But I like for everything to make sense and be transparent. Because if a person realized that they were lied to about one thing then they will discard the rest. 

We don't want kids doing drugs so we scare them with things like 'once you try you're hooked for life' and then a friend tries and they're not (because of their tolerance or brain chemistry) and then that kid discards all the other valid things he heard and dives in. 

Very simplified but you get the idea

I'd have no problem with the doc saying that a dog can get cancer in the testicles and while this is not a reason to neuter - it's an added benefit. It's not presented this way. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> since our breed is predisposed if people want to neuter solely because of that then more power to them
> 
> The National Canine Cancer Foundation - Testicular Tumors



For sure. I wouldn't say otherwise. It's each person's choice. 

I'm talking about what the vets say. I was pressured to neuter, pressured, because my dog might get cancer. To me that's faulty logic. Our breed is predisposed to spleen cancers too, I think. No?


But again, it's a personal decision and I'm not knocking anyone. 

We can live without breasts and breast cancer is very common. Not too many people are doing preventative surgeries. 


I'm not knocking people neutering for any reason, I'm knocking vets for pressuring using faulty logic


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I should stop here. I say things because of my experiences. I had an experience of the vets pressure me to neuter and be borderline nasty when I declined. I'm just saying that they were using faulty logic and no one should be judged because they decline to neuter based on it. 


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> This is really a decision that needs to be made in regards to each individual dog, and each person and their level of involvement with their dogs.
> 
> Yet, if people ask for my advice on neutering or spaying, (as in the general public - not people on the forum who are in general more knowledgeable and educated about dog issues), I usually recommend neuter or spay once the dog is mature as I know for a fact that the general public is just not as involved in their dogs and do not have the level of responsibility that most of us do.
> 
> I do not feel that neutering or spaying are right are wrong - there are specific reasons to neuter or spay, or to leave intact, and each owner needs to make that decision that fits best for them. And I hope no one feels the need to look down on others who have made different decisions.


Great post that sums it up nicely as the general public is NOT dog savvy and therefore spay/neuter is the recommendation for them.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The vets I deal with don't push it, they are more along the lines of waiting a little longer if able to. I think that if there is a good relationship between the vet and client, the vet is more likely not to push it , but lay out the facts and let the person decide.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Great post that sums it up nicely as the general public is NOT dog savvy and therefore spay/neuter is the recommendation for them.


Yes! This!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I had a vet that kept bringing up the neuter thing. He'd say things like: next month when you bring him back for his neuter . . . (like it was a done deal). Whenever the subject came up, I'd just say "Gryffon won't be neutered, thank you." in a tone that indicated that the discussion was closed. I had to say it a few times at different occasions for the subject to be dropped completely.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> I had a vet that kept bringing up the neuter thing. He'd say things like: next month when you bring him back for his neuter . . . (like it was a done deal). Whenever the subject came up, I'd just say "Gryffon won't be neutered, thank you." in a tone that indicated that the discussion was closed. I had to say it a few times at different occasions for the subject to be dropped completely.



Yep, things like this. 

I've been unlucky with vets. Maybe that's why I'm a little hostile. 

The vet office I'm talking about was much pushier than that. Then the techs. They actually became condescending and some pretty nasty (many vets and techs in that office)


It was my first office, my first dog, that's why this experience stuck


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i think when vets know the owner is responsible they relax a bit
i mean they are full aware of the pet overpopulation issues 
many times they have bybs as clients and i doubt they are happy about that and they see poorly bred dogs all the time and the health and temperament issues that go along with


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> i think when vets know the owner is responsible they relax a bit
> 
> i mean they are full aware of the pet overpopulation issues
> 
> many times they have bybs as clients and i doubt they are happy about that and they see poorly bred dogs all the time and the health and temperament issues that go along with



Not true ime. Everything that office did was money related. They'd harm a dog if they can make money. It's sad but it's true. 


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

sad
none of our vets have been that way


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> I had a vet that kept bringing up the neuter thing. He'd say things like: next month when you bring him back for his neuter . . . (like it was a done deal).


That would be the assumptive close 

http://businesscoaching.typepad.com/sales_coaching/2008/11/assumptive-sales-close.html

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Assumptive-Close---Sale-Closing-Techniques-101&id=3567194


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Not true ime. Everything that office did was money related. They'd harm a dog if they can make money. It's sad but it's true.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Sounds like my vet office . They going overkill with the vaccinarion schedule... Its scary. They schedule my puppy to get about 9 vaccines every 2 weeks for 5 visit


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> sad
> none of our vets have been that way



You don't know your luck. It's extremely hard to find a good vet. I want a vet that I can trust, that won't put money before his health, that won't over medicate. We went to 4 offices already. Some are OK, my first was just disgusting. 

The rest are OK but still, over medicating. Everywhere. That on its own is OK, I just don't give the meds. But that tells me about their priorities


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> i think when vets know the owner is responsible they relax a bit
> i mean they are full aware of the pet overpopulation issues
> many times they have bybs as clients and i doubt they are happy about that and they see poorly bred dogs all the time and the health and temperament issues that go along with


My old Vet tried to pressure me into neutering Sinister early but I kept telling her that I was going to wait until Sin was over a year old. I ended up neutering him at 15 months old at a different Vet clinic and I had a bad experience.

The Vet I have now didn't fight me at all when I told him I wanted to wait until Draven was 18-24 months before neutering him. He only suggested that we neuter him at 18 months since he is cryptorchid.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

Ace GSD said:


> For those who have intact males i also like to know is there any special care for the dogs that never mate ? Cause i heard from some that they need to gave release or something . Please answer this thanks.


Release? It's called exercise. Intact males get problematic when they are not exercised and trained. So do neutered dogs. Neutered males can get built up frustration/energy as well. Behaviors associated with intact status can be stopped with training, exercise, and management just the same.

I had my German Shepherd mix neutered at 2 years old (waited purposely for growth) with the idea hammered into me that I was doing the right thing by removing his body parts. He did not have any aggression or typical intact male issues before or after being neutered. I was serious and diligent in keeping him well behaved, under-control at all times, and contained on my property before he was neutered and I still am after as everyone should regardless of breeding status.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't regret having my male dog neutered as my stance on this has changed and strengthened. My female German Shepherd will be kept intact. I fully accept and am capable of taking on the difficulties/responsibilities that come with that decision.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here’s the thing I’m noticing…for some reason people seem to think that when people say intact males are aggressive, it means they’re constantly trying to murder other males. No, it’s not that. My dog doesn’t react to other males on the street, and can actually get along with a large majority of them off leash. But…the testosterone does tend to increase the need for dominance and if any other dog challenges him, he’ll answer that challenge. So in a dog park situation, he does tend to run into a few dogs that for whatever reason decide they want to be boss, and that’s when he’ll react. This is more times than not because the other dog is doing a dominance dance of some sort, but you could make the connection that the other dog (intact or not) is also picking up on the testosterone and therefore feeling the need to dominate.

Having said that, I don’t feel it’s a good reason for me to neuter my male because OTHER dogs react to him negatively. But…what I do is avoid those situations. Some people, don’t want to avoid those situations. They want to enjoy a dog park, or a dog day care, or be able to go over to their friends house and not have to worry about their dog possibly getting in a fight. I basically only allow my dog off-leash with female dogs and male dogs that I know are submissive and won’t try anything funny with my boy.

That’s why I say it’s a lifestyle decision. And when others were talking about its “convenient,” well it’s not convenience, it’s just choosing to do different things with your dog where keeping them intact makes it difficult.

In regards to all the health crap…I have a bitch that was spayed at 6 months of age. She has OFA Excellent hips.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

KaiserandStella said:


> Release? It's called exercise. Intact males get problematic when they are not exercised and trained. So do neutered dogs. Neutered males can get built up frustration/energy as well. Behaviors associated with intact status can be stopped with training, exercise, and management just the same.
> 
> I had my German Shepherd mix neutered at 2 years old (waited purposely for growth) with the idea hammered into me that I was doing the right thing by removing his body parts. He did not have any aggression or typical intact male issues before or after being neutered. I was serious and diligent in keeping him well behaved, under-control at all times, and contained on my property before he was neutered and I still am after as everyone should regardless of breeding status.
> 
> I'd be lying if I said I didn't regret having my male dog neutered as my stance on this has changed and strengthened. My female German Shepherd will be kept intact. I fully accept and am capable of taking on the difficulties/responsibilities that come with that decision.


Thanks for the advice. Exercise is an everyday thing for me so i should be able to do it at least 2 times a day. he can run with me morning and evening


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Here’s the thing I’m noticing…for some reason people seem to think that when people say intact males are aggressive, it means they’re constantly trying to murder other males. No, it’s not that. My dog doesn’t react to other males on the street, and can actually get along with a large majority of them off leash. But…the testosterone does tend to increase the need for dominance and if any other dog challenges him, he’ll answer that challenge. So in a dog park situation, he does tend to run into a few dogs that for whatever reason decide they want to be boss, and that’s when he’ll react. This is more times than not because the other dog is doing a dominance dance of some sort, but you could make the connection that the other dog (intact or not) is also picking up on the testosterone and therefore feeling the need to dominate.
> 
> Having said that, I don’t feel it’s a good reason for me to neuter my male because OTHER dogs react to him negatively. But…what I do is avoid those situations. Some people, don’t want to avoid those situations. They want to enjoy a dog park, or a dog day care, or be able to go over to their friends house and not have to worry about their dog possibly getting in a fight. I basically only allow my dog off-leash with female dogs and male dogs that I know are submissive and won’t try anything funny with my boy.
> 
> ...


I find this interesting because I've taken my dog to the dog park since before he was neutered and no neutered male ever reacted particularly aggressive/dominant towards him when he was intact. Actually, I noticed that dogs tend to like him male or female. Before and after being neutered the response was the same and my dogs personality is the same after being neutered. He is very calm, confident, and assertive but not aggressive and will ignore another dog challenging him. He lets me handle problems at the park or on walks. Not every male dog is going to behave more dominant/aggressive because he is intact. I think being intact just adds fuel to the fire already burning but it's not the cause.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

KaiserandStella said:


> I find this interesting because I've taken my dog to the dog park since before he was neutered and no neutered male ever reacted particularly aggressive/dominant towards him when he was intact. Actually, I noticed that dogs tend to like him male or female. Before and after being neutered the response was the same and my dogs personality is the same after being neutered. He is very calm, confident, and assertive but not aggressive and will ignore another dog challenging him. He lets me handle problems at the park or on walks. Not every male dog is going to behave more dominant/aggressive because he is intact. I think being intact just adds fuel to the fire already burning but it's not the cause.


What is the timeline of when your dog was neutered?


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

My dog was neutered when he was 2 (close to 3) years old. He is now 5 years old.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

OP, I have a 2 year old ( turned 2 in March) intact male and he gives me absolutely no trouble at all. He doesn't mark in the house and he shows no signs of aggression to either humans or dog. In fact we now use him to rehabilitate anxious or nervous dogs because his temperament is so dependable. Regarding behaviour, genetics plays a huge part, and Archer is almost a carbon copy of his sire Audi, another well bred even tempered dog. Archer has been well socialised from early puppyhood, and is exercised daily. It's up to you of course, but before I decided to let Archer stay intact I heard multiple horror stories about intact dogs, that I now consider hyperbole and near myth in some cases.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I’ll say it was right around 2 that I cut the dog park out of my life. I do think that like you said, it really depends on the dog, and it’s not that my dog would constantly get into scuffles, it was just starting to happen more than I’d like. I also saw neutered dogs that played fine with each other, and then for no other reason one of them would have an issue with my boy.

If another intact dog was there…chances were high that if they ran into each other there would be “words said.” And depending on the words…it was highly likely that it would get physical.

When you’re talking about GSDs, they’re a powerful breed, and even though there are some that are very friendly and not aggressive, I’ll bet that most are willing to stick their nose into a physical altercation.

Sorry...I just hate seeing these posts that are like "my dog isn't aggressive at all" when statistics and most people's experience will prove that an intact male is more aggressive/dominant than a neutered one. I went through a period of denial as well, my boy was very good with many dogs, still is very good with most dogs, but I see tons of issues as soon as a dog challenges him. If that dog growls, or shows any form of aggression...it's on like donkey kong. If the aggression is from a place of fear, then my boy easily ignores it. But if it truly is a "I don't like you" thing...he'll try to show how much bigger and badder he is.

Just like people try to post all these medical statistics to prove something, statistically, an intact male is going to be more aggressive. When you have one that isn't, its more of an exception rather than the rule.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*But…the testosterone does tend to increase the need for dominance and if any other dog challenges him, he’ll answer that challenge*
this exactly
because of the occasional foster we decided to neuter my pup as he was the one wanting to show the others who was boss in the house
he had not started any fights yet but his body language was enough for me to say the cajones are leaving
and sure enough now that he is neutered he no longer postures and carries on when fosters come in

*I just hate seeing these posts that are like "my dog isn't aggressive at all" when statistics and most people's experience will prove that an intact male is more aggressive/dominant than a neutered one.*
if there is one thing all the studies agree on it is that testosterone does affect the dogs behavior around other males
how could it not when males are faced with potentially challenging competitors for breeding rights?? 

i mean claiming it wont is as big of fallacy as saying that lack of it will make them sissies when nothing could be further from the truth
our last dog was neutered at around 5 mos. and he looked very male and he acted very protective of our home
what more could a pet owner want?? 

i must also add that keeping a female intact over 18mos or so is far riskier than keeping a male intact longer

my concern in all of this is that at some point someone is going to say to you how handsome your dog is and ask to use him for a stud

how will you answer that question when asked, ace?

because we got that all the time with our neutered males and had to inform folks that 'sorry he is neutered' or we could have studded them out weekly


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I’ll never deny that if someone asked me to stud, and I liked their bitch, I’d have a very hard time saying no. Either for a small stud fee or a puppy that is out of my boy. I’ve already said no to one person, who’s bitch just wasn’t one that I would ever want a puppy from. But if someone came to me, with a decent bitch (probably not breedworthy by this forum’s or many other standards, but neither is my boy) I’d have a really hard time saying no.

I think over the past year, we’ve had 2 people ask this question when they had both an intact male and female, and then come on months later posting about an oops litter. So the funny thing is, people convince us, and themselves that they’ll be responsible, but until they actually have to deal with the situation they have no idea how they’ll handle it. And it’s clear that the statistics point to the fact that people can’t handle it…if you follow the forum, we’ll have about one of these discussions a month…so out of about 12, 2 have had litters. Those that are telling stories about how they do it…you’re also not the type to be asking the question in the first place on a forum and so you know what you’re dealing with.

I’m not for neutering…I’m just always constantly surprised at this forum and how hard they push not speutering as if everyone is super responsible when they clearly aren’t.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I’ll never deny that if someone asked me to stud, and I liked their bitch, I’d have a very hard time saying no. Either for a small stud fee or a puppy that is out of my boy. I’ve already said no to one person, who’s bitch just wasn’t one that I would ever want a puppy from. But if someone came to me, with a decent bitch (probably not breedworthy by this forum’s or many other standards, but neither is my boy) I’d have a really hard time saying no.
> 
> I think over the past year, we’ve had 2 people ask this question when they had both an intact male and female, and then come on months later posting about an oops litter. So the funny thing is, people convince us, and themselves that they’ll be responsible, but until they actually have to deal with the situation they have no idea how they’ll handle it. And it’s clear that the statistics point to the fact that people can’t handle it…if you follow the forum, we’ll have about one of these discussions a month…so out of about 12, 2 have had litters. Those that are telling stories about how they do it…you’re also not the type to be asking the question in the first place on a forum and so you know what you’re dealing with.
> 
> I’m not for neutering…I’m just always constantly surprised at this forum and how hard they push not speutering as if everyone is super responsible when they clearly aren’t.


I will admit that there are times that I wish that I did not neuter Sinister and that I would have bred him to a nice black or sable female with a really nice temperament. He has been such a great dog and only gets better as he ages and his personality is fantastic. I have always recieved wonderful comments about him and he has such a big fan club. I have at least 10 people that have told me that they want him if I die. He is a joy to take places and he does so well with people, children and other animals. I wish I could spend the rest of my life with him and I would have loved to have had a puppy from him. 

I actually do believe in spaying and neutering, I will always alter my animals but I believe in waiting until they are 18-24 months old or at the very least 12 months old before altering them.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I’ll say it was right around 2 that I cut the dog park out of my life. I do think that like you said, it really depends on the dog, and it’s not that my dog would constantly get into scuffles, it was just starting to happen more than I’d like. I also saw neutered dogs that played fine with each other, and then for no other reason one of them would have an issue with my boy.
> 
> If another intact dog was there…chances were high that if they ran into each other there would be “words said.” And depending on the words…it was highly likely that it would get physical.
> 
> ...


Gosh, I'm not in any kind of denial, and would hope I can offer my experience without offending anyone. Aggression between intact males is ( IMO) about training and management if there is no in heat female about the place. Archer meets three to four intact males a day, and it never devolves to fights or a display of who is the 'bigger or badder' dog. The 1st example I will show as a photo is of Copper, a fully intact and rather giddy GS, who frankly drives Archer up the walls with his jumping all over him, but Archer- fully intact over 2 male- knows better than to engage in any kind of row.
Same with small dogs, pups or hostile adults or cats or loose ponies for that matter- he could not care less.
Work for Archer = 'what dog?' regardless of testicles or attitude. I can let him lose among ANY dogs or people/animals and his attitude is the same. This is my experience of the GSD I own.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

"Sorry...I just hate seeing these posts that are like "my dog isn't aggressive at all" when statistics and most people's experience will prove that an intact male is more aggressive/dominant than a neutered one. I went through a period of denial as well, my boy was very good with many dogs, still is very good with most dogs, but I see tons of issues as soon as a dog challenges him. If that dog growls, or shows any form of aggression...it's on like donkey kong. If the aggression is from a place of fear, then my boy easily ignores it. But if it truly is a "I don't like you" thing...he'll try to show how much bigger and badder he is."

EXACTLY. Well said. My intact male is very appropriate with all female dogs, all small dogs, and most male dogs. But if the male is intact, or if the male challenges him out of dominance, he will act aggressively toward that dog unless I control him. He isn't in it to hurt the other dog, but he will indeed dominate. 

It started around 2- 3 years old. This means he doesn't get to interact with most dogs we see on the trail at all unless I can tell that it is either a female, a puppy, or a non-aggressive male. Generally, I don't take chances. And this does mean an extra level of attention and training than I would need if he was neutered. I plan to keep my 7 week old male pup intact as well, and I can already tell he is going to be the same, a dominant male, who doesn't pick fights, but will not back down from a challenge. This means no dog parks, and high level of OB. 

It is simply not accurate to claim there are no behavioral differences between intact and neutered males, there are, and they can be annoying to deal with.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

My advice is to do your research and hear from people on both sides of the fence, and then make the best decision for you and your dog. I have 3 in tact mature males (6, 4, and 2 years old) and also a spayed female who got fixed at 11 months, right before her first heat. I wanted them to grow as naturally as possible so their growth plates could have time to seal. When I took my oldest male in to neuter at 2 years old, my Holistic Vet asked for reasons as to why I felt the need to fix him. He ran down a checklist of all of the main reasons to neuter a dog, and my answers were NO to all of the questions. Then he asked me again, "why do you need to neuter him?" I guess I didn't. That's when I knew I had a good vet. I was there to give them my money, and they basically told me "we don't want your money, we want what's best for you and your dog." Paw Paw had no aggression issues within the pack, did not roam, did not jump fences (even though he could if he wanted to), had no health issues, and only had minor issues with humping and marking (both of which had a chance to still be there after the neuter surgery anyways). I'm an ultra-responsible dog owner and would not let an oops litter happen. I've had him for almost 7 years now, with my 2 other in tact males, and zero issues and zero health problems. I also run them long distance via bikejoring for 5-10 miles a day. When Paw Paw was still a puppy, I came across that sport dog article about athletic working dogs, of which I considered my dogs were and would remain. I remember printing that article and showing it to my old, non-holistic vets (before we moved to Portland where we were able to find a holistic vet) to get their opinion.

I found that article I originally read in 2008 that helped me make my decision, after much research into both sides. I didn't just believe this article at face value, but it did help me question the common push for early spay/neuter. Here's the article, and it looks like they've updated it since 2008, as this is the 2013 version:

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf 

It's not an easy decision, so good luck with whatever conclusion you come to! *Oh, and for the record, I have no plans to breed or show any of them, so that was not a reason to keep them in tact. This was strictly for the overall long-term benefit of their health and happiness!*


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I want your vet


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hey Counter, are they all German Shepherds? I know plenty of husky owners have multiple intact males but it seems to be more difficult with GSDs, rotties, dobes. Basically your naturally dominant, pushy, serious working dog types.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Sorry...I just hate seeing these posts that are like "my dog isn't aggressive at all" when statistics and most people's experience will prove that an intact male is more aggressive/dominant than a neutered one. I went through a period of denial as well, my boy was very good with many dogs, still is very good with most dogs, but I see tons of issues as soon as a dog challenges him. If that dog growls, or shows any form of aggression...it's on like donkey kong. If the aggression is from a place of fear, then my boy easily ignores it. But if it truly is a "I don't like you" thing...he'll try to show how much bigger and badder he is.


I've met plenty of even-tempered and submissive dogs that were intact. I don't think it's that uncommon. Quoting myself here "I think being intact just adds fuel to the fire already burning but it's not the cause." Being intact can be a catalyst for certain dogs to become very dominating or aggressive. Many things can but the propensity for that was already there otherwise every single dog regardless of natural temperament, amount of training, and exercise would behave that way when intact. It's not an absolute and no one is denying that there are dogs effected by the increased testosterone. Just pointing out the opposite which is also very true, not invalid, and should also not be denied. Not all intact males behave the same way.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

lalachka said:


> I want your vet
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm sure there are holistic vets in NYC. They seem a bit pricey, but in the long run, you usually visit them less, so over time the cost is about the same, if not less. I think the dogs are normally healthier too, as the holistic vets target the source of the problem and not just try to make the symptoms go away. It's like trimming a weed versus pulling up the root. At least that's my humble opinion. And I like the fact that they don't try to pump my dogs with chemical solutions. Being raised in the West with Western medicine, I was honestly skeptical about the Chinese herbs as medicine, but so far they've actually worked and now I'm a believer! Haha.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Muskeg said:


> Hey Counter, are they all German Shepherds? I know plenty of husky owners have multiple intact males but it seems to be more difficult with GSDs, rotties, dobes. Basically your naturally dominant, pushy, serious working dog types.


1 male is a Sibe, 1 is a Sibe mixed with wolf, 1 is a GSD, and then I have my female spayed GSD. My female GSD (Nara) is the overall alpha between them, and then my male purebred Sibe (Paw Paw) is the alpha male. Nara and Paw Paw are also 6 years old, Beowulf is 4, and Kaze is 2. Paw Paw submits to Nara when he pisses her off. Ha! But when they wrestle and play, he destroys her. I think he knows that she's the real boss if she wants to be. It's funny to watch him run for his life when she gets upset with him! He's so big and strong, but she turns him into a little baby.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

counter said:


> I'm sure there are holistic vets in NYC. They seem a bit pricey, but in the long run, you usually visit them less, so over time the cost is about the same, if not less. I think the dogs are normally healthier too, as the holistic vets target the source of the problem and not just try to make the symptoms go away. It's like trimming a weed versus pulling up the root. At least that's my humble opinion. And I like the fact that they don't try to pump my dogs with chemical solutions. Being raised in the West with Western medicine, I was honestly skeptical about the Chinese herbs as medicine, but so far they've actually worked and now I'm a believer! Haha.


yeah there are.. are they all as honest as yours?
fo my next appt i will try a holistic and see what happens


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

lalachka said:


> yeah there are.. are they all as honest as yours?
> fo my next appt i will try a holistic and see what happens


Not sure. I did my research before committing to one. I read through all of the ratings and reviews online about the different holistic vets in my area, and also read over their website and Facebook page. I made the decision based on what I deemed to be the better results. I am willing to spend more for my dog's health, if that means they're getting the best medical treatment. I want them to live as long as possible, so it's worth the expense to me. Don't just go with the first one you find, or the closest one to your home. Try to find the best that's within your financial range for affordability. That's my suggestion. Good luck!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> Hey Counter, are they all German Shepherds? I know plenty of husky owners have multiple intact males but it seems to be more difficult with GSDs, rotties, dobes. Basically your naturally dominant, pushy, serious working dog types.


so only the working types need to be neutered for aggression then? all the other breeds aare naturally unaggressive?

also, i'd love to see the statistics martem was talking about. i'm wondering how they're collected. lots of times irresponsible owners will have unneutered dogs and since they're irresponsible then there's more of a chance of their dogs having problems. not because theyr'e unneuetered but because their owners are irresponsible.

that's just a guess

i really don't know either way, but i'd think that all dogs are different and if a dog is aggressive then leaving him intact will make his aggression worse. but i don't think hormones make a dog aggressive. i thought aggression is something dogs are born with for the most part, no?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

counter said:


> Not sure. I did my research before committing to one. I read through all of the ratings and reviews online about the different holistic vets in my area, and also read over their website and Facebook page. I made the decision based on what I deemed to be the better results. I am willing to spend more for my dog's health, if that means they're getting the best medical treatment. I want them to live as long as possible, so it's worth the expense to me. Don't just go with the first one you find, or the closest one to your home. Try to find the best that's within your financial range for affordability. That's my suggestion. Good luck!


i'm already doing minimal stuff, raw, minimal meds, minimal vaccines. would be nice to have a doc who agrees with what i'm doing.

as far as money, it's all the same thing. regular vets don't charge a lot for the visit and they make up for it by selling unnecessary pills and pushing stuff. i'd much rather pay more for the visit and know that if something is prescribed it's because he really needs it, not because the vets charge double or triple on the meds and that's their way of making money.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

lalachka said:


> so only the working types need to be neutered for aggression then? all the other breeds aare naturally unaggressive?


Sibes are also a working breed. They are known to sometimes have aggression (and be on those "bad doggy" breed lists) and I would say that, on average, have a prey drive that is much higher than the average GSD. They are one of the breeds (along with Alaskan Malamutes) that are the closest in DNA breakdown to a wolf, based on the college studies I've read. And if you have a working dog that you're actually working, and you neuter it, I've read where it actually removes some of their drive. I've seen this firsthand with my spayed GSD, Nara. She has never been on the same level after the spay compared to before the spay. Something is definitely missing, and it affected her SAR training. It's like she's a step slower than she was before. I've talked with her breeder and they agreed that the spay removes the hormones, which removes a bit of their drive. This might be why neutered dogs can sometimes be less aggressive after the surgery compared to before. But again, it usually varies based on the individual dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, studies on intact vs. "neutered" humans would say that hormones are quite important when it comes to behavior. Sure environment and personality make a difference, but violent crimes are almost always committed by men. A bull is very different from a steer. 

And, no, not just "aggressive" breeds should be neutered. It makes sense for many dogs if you don't want to change your lifestyle by avoiding dog parks and spending a lot of time training your dog. Neutered males will go after an intact male regardless of breed, and regardless of breed, that male will often stand up for himself leading to a fight. 

Also, prostrate problems are common in intact male dogs. Keeping a dog intact is not totally without health risks. 

I am totally fine with someone keeping a male intact, I do. But I don't want to tell them it is all sunshine and rainbows. An intact male is more "animal" in general.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

counter said:


> Sibes are also a working breed. They are known to sometimes have aggression (and be on those "bad doggy" breed lists) and I would say that, on average, have a prey drive that is much higher than the average GSD. They are one of the breeds (along with Alaskan Malamutes) that are the closest in DNA breakdown to a wolf, based on the college studies I've read. And if you have a working dog that you're actually working, and you neuter it, I've read where it actually removes some of their drive. I've seen this firsthand with my spayed GSD, Nara. She has never been on the same level after the spay compared to before the spay. Something is definitely missing, and it affected her SAR training. It's like she's a step slower than she was before. I've talked with her breeder and they agreed that the spay removes the hormones, which removes a bit of their drive. This might be why neutered dogs can sometimes be less aggressive after the surgery compared to before. But again, it usually varies based on the individual dog.


trust me, i know))))) i have a friend with a sibe, i know him very well. nothing easy about him. he's not aggressive meaning he doesn't start fights but he bit off a piece of a rhodesian ridgeback's ear because he humped him. and a few more stories like that. he's not even 2 yet.

and overall, not an easy breed to own

i was just wondering why Muskeg said that


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> An intact male is more "animal" in general.


yep. that's why the thought of neutering is so wrong to me.

but i just wanted to see what you meant. yes, good point about men and stuff)))))

ok then


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> And, no, not just "aggressive" breeds should be neutered. It makes sense for many dogs if you don't want to change your lifestyle by avoiding dog parks and spending a lot of time training your dog. Neutered males will go after an intact male regardless of breed, and regardless of breed, that male will often stand up for himself leading to a fight.


Neutered male dogs can have the same problem. Neutering and spaying doesn't always remove dominance/aggression. Many, many people own neutered & spayed dogs that have those very issues that intact dogs are supposed to have by far. They can't go to dog parks and have to spend a lot of time training. It's not a guarantee that neutering/spaying your dog will always make him or her "tame" (removing the animal bothers me as well) Strong-consistant-training, mental stimulation, and plenty of physical exercise are things that are just as likely to work in curbing bad behaviors without all the negatives of cutting out/off reproductive organs.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

KaiserandStella said:


> Neutered male dogs can have the same problem. Neutering and spaying doesn't always remove dominance/aggression. Many, many people own neutered & spayed dogs that have those very issues that intact dogs are supposed to have by far. They can't go to dog parks and have to spend a lot of time training. It's not a guarantee that neutering/spaying your dog will always make him or her "tame" (removing the animal bothers me as well) Strong-consistant-training, mental stimulation, and plenty of physical exercise are things that are just as likely to work in curbing bad behaviors without all the negatives of cutting out/off reproductive organs.


supposedly, if you neuter by 6 months then it will. something i keep seeing online. not sure if it's true.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Can anyone tell me what does hollistic vet mean in a real simple way ?


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

lalachka said:


> supposedly, if you neuter by 6 months then it will. something i keep seeing online. not sure if it's true.


I know many people that neutered young and still have male aggression issues. One of them being a relative. I'm sure there are other folks on here that have that problem as well. My relatives dog behaves just like an intact male is supposed to and he was neutered very young. While my dog was neutered way later and never had any issues.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

KaiserandStella said:


> I know many people that neutered young and still have male aggression issues. One of them being a relative. I'm sure there are other folks on here that have that problem as well. My relatives dog behaves just like an intact male is supposed to and he was neutered very young. While my dog was neutered way later and never had any issues.


maybe)))) just repeating what i read


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Ace GSD said:


> Can anyone tell me what does hollistic vet mean in a real simple way ?


ho·lis·tic
hōˈlistik/
_adjective_Philosophy


adjective: *holistic*
characterized by comprehension of the parts of something as intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole.

Medicine
characterized by the treatment of the whole person, taking into account mental and social factors, rather than just the physical symptoms of a disease.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Can't we consider training a dog to not react to their natural instinct to be dominant/fight for breeding rights..."removing some of the animal?"

Everyone seems to always know the exception to the rule, and want to debunk the myths. Yet the medical statistics...no one seems to question. No one talks about the dozens of dogs that were neutered early and didn't get cancer, weak bones, ect. But when it comes to temperament...we all know the exception to the commonly accepted knowledge.

Some dogs...you can train to not react to their need to dominate, others, good luck. I have one of those dogs. I've accepted it. And people need to know that they'll have to expect that, and that from real life experience, an intact animal has a much higher chance of having some sort of "not getting along with other dogs" issues.

I'll always find it funny, that the OP in these threads always seems to come to the same conclusion...don't do it. No one's ever been convinced that it's better to neuter. And like I said, we've had the oopies that people promised wouldn't happen. We whine and moan about poorly bred dogs, but we still convince people to keep their animals intact. We have no idea who these people are, but for some reason we "trust" that they'll do the right thing. Then in a few years they get a female, and then they have a litter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Can't we consider training a dog to not react to their natural instinct to be dominant/fight for breeding rights..."removing some of the animal?"
> 
> Everyone seems to always know the exception to the rule, and want to debunk the myths. Yet the medical statistics...no one seems to question. No one talks about the dozens of dogs that were neutered early and didn't get cancer, weak bones, ect. But when it comes to temperament...we all know the exception to the commonly accepted knowledge.
> 
> ...


They are having a litter because they WANT to have a litter. The number of oopses is probably the most skewed statistic out there. 

The thing is. You can't save them and put them back. It is a final sort of thing. If you are wavering, you can think, "well, if it starts to become a problem, I can always do it then." 

I encourage people not to spay/neuter. I am against it altogether. But, if someone chooses to spay or neuter, that is their decision, and they are entitled to it. I don't like making the blanket assumption that everyone is too irresponsible to manage an intact animal. It isn't all that hard, and all the boys I have ever had, have never been crazy with other male dogs, though I do not do dog parks. 

However, if some yayhoo with a dog of the opposite sex, asks if you would be willing to breed your dog to his, then, if yours is intact, you have a choice to make. And some people are probably going to accept that offer with the promise of a puppy or for money. And if you alter, you can't be tempted.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

selzer said:


> The thing is. You can't save them and put them back. It is a final sort of thing. If you are wavering, you can think, "well, if it starts to become a problem, I can always do it then."


It is a very final sort of thing indeed. They won't be growing back in if you change your mind. I think it's important to take everything in to consideration. Looking at all the info from all sides of the spectrum (health, temperament, lifestyle etc) Doing your own research as well and deciding with 100% (non pressured) certainty what you will do.

About oopsie litters.. I think a large chunk of oopsies are probably planned oopsies. Not that most people are incapable of stopping their dog from breeding. It's more that deep down they don't really want to. They say they tried their best but really they got lax with watching their dog consciously or unconsciously so it would happen. They didn't care enough to stop it from happening because part of them wanted it to happen.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> They are having a litter because they WANT to have a litter. The number of oopses is probably the most skewed statistic out there.


I disagree with this. The number of dogs running the streets or in the shelters are not a product of oops litters, there are way to many out there. Dogs run away, get pregnant, get a dog pregnant and lots end up having the puppies on the street or in the shelter. It is ignorance amongst dog owner population.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Well, studies on intact vs. "neutered" humans would say that hormones are quite important when it comes to behavior. Sure environment and personality make a difference, but violent crimes are almost always committed by men. A bull is very different from a steer.
> 
> And, no, not just "aggressive" breeds should be neutered. It makes sense for many dogs if you don't want to change your lifestyle by avoiding dog parks and spending a lot of time training your dog. Neutered males will go after an intact male regardless of breed, and regardless of breed, that male will often stand up for himself leading to a fight.
> 
> ...


Bud is 12 and not neutered. Of my recent 3, hands down the easiest to manage. Working lines, high drive, independent and stubborn, but way less likely to react to a dog or human then either of the girls. Two years ago I said I would never keep an intact female in the house with him long term as it seemed to impact his hearing. Then I discovered that I couldn't have Shadow spayed. It really isn't that bad. A bit stressful for the dogs maybe, but tolerable. I am a grown up, aware of the cost of failed diligence. I keep them apart and keep eagle eyes on Shadow, no problem. I think neutering and spaying are largely a crutch for those who at least recognize in themselves a likelihood of irresponsible behavior. None of my bitches have ever been spayed before maturity and I have never had an oops litter. Looking at the way most pet owners manage their pets, I am all for the spay/neuter trend, but lets be real. It has little to do with the animals and lots to do with the humans that are unclear about responsibility for a living creature.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I'll always find it funny, that the OP in these threads always seems to come to the same conclusion...don't do it. No one's ever been convinced that it's better to neuter.



Actually not true. I neutered Dude at 6 months. After a thread telling me not to do it. 



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