# Heading for trouble?



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

D is almost 8 months old, feeling his oats and is becoming more and more predatory towards our old small breed female dog. He will not let his eyes off her and controls her every move and herds her into her crate if I would let him. She is not able to stand up against him so I manage him. 
clicker and treats will not distract him from his obsession, so he basically is on the prong in her presence. It doesn't seem to make much of an impact regarding his drive towards her. She is getting more and more afraid of him.
He gets plenty exercise,training and play time. It is almost like he doesn't care about anything but bullying her. He is also starting to display this same behavior towards dogs he played nice with at first. I certainly hope it is not the result of his rabies vaccination two months ago. I went through this misery with another dog several years ago.
It feels like I have used all my training tricks and tools. I need more ideas and help to make this work.
If you dealt with this, how did you solve it?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm working on what I'll call prey drive with both my GSD 's and Batman(husky/greyhound). His movement drives them nuts and they tend to gang up on him, he doesn't know when to quit either. I think he annoys them on purpose. It's a slow process, so far I have him trained him to get his butt by me when they start, they back off immediately. Lots of leave its and time outs here. Midnite also thinks he needs to protect the younger golden. I stop him immediately when he plays boss and puts his nose where it doesn't belong.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I might have had similar issues with my guy, if I'd let him have free access to our senior AmBull and our cat. In my case, I had to make sure my puppy didn't corner my vicious cat (she'd take an eye out just for fun) or harass the dog with bad hips.

I was teaching "Leave it" from day 1, by redirecting him away from them, as a baby puppy. Constant body blocking and redirecting...for months, lol. I'm not sure how much interaction you've given your dogs since you brought your pup home, but mine was quite limited.

I'm not saying that the prong isn't a great tool, but maybe it isn't a good enough deterrent in this case? It's one thing to mark inappropriate behavior with a pop, but if the consequences don't outweigh the sheer enjoyment of the behavior (herding and bullying) then it might be devaluing it, and I'd be looking for more substantial corrections. I did give my pup a few scruffs when he thought he could blow off "Leave it" and he was also crated at the same time, so he soon equated harassment with unpleasantness. The prong would probably have amped him up, I'm guessing.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I was teaching "Leave it" from day 1, by redirecting him away from them, as a baby puppy. Constant body blocking and redirecting...for months, lol. I'm not sure how much interaction you've given your dogs since you brought your pup home, but mine was quite limited.

I'm not saying that the prong isn't a great tool, but maybe it isn't a good enough deterrent in this case? It's one thing to mark inappropriate behavior with a pop, but if the consequences don't outweigh the sheer enjoyment of the behavior (herding and bullying) then it might be devaluing it, and I'd be looking for more substantial corrections. I did give my pup a few scruffs when he thought he could blow off "Leave it" and he was also crated at the same time, so he soon equated harassment with unpleasantness. The prong would probably have amped him up, I'm guessing.[/QUOTE]

This is how I'm dealing with it also. Della is almost 4 months, she's used to playing with Tess, and cannot be allowed the same type of access to the Yorkie. She knows my reaction is going to be immediate but she still tries. So they are never alone together.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Yesterday was a bad day in which D threw in the towel on all fronts. Finally after working all day with him, corrections for the wrong and rewards for good behavior, on leash/prong all day, today he feels mellow and ignore the other dog and seems to remember all his previous lessons. But of course he is on leash and will remain so for a few days. In the meantime I am planning on winning the battle with this boy. Never had a dog like this with whom I had throw out my principles of just positive training methods. I have removed all his toys so for fun he is depended on me. I know time flies but now I wish it went with rocket speed to get him to adulthood.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I feel the same way about Skadi.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I feel the same way about Skadi.


Good to know that I am not just turning crazy and incapable. It is really hard to admit to feel stuck, especially as a pet dog trainer myself. But then I have to realize that D is not just the average pet dog and requires more than that.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I was so frustrated and dissapointed too! I did so much research, etc. It was difficult to admit that we had hit a wall.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Never had a dog like this with whom I had throw out my principles of just positive training methods.


Yeah, there's never a dull moment with a GSD in the house - your pup's awesome, he's turned you on your head!


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> Good to know that I am not just turning crazy and incapable. It is really hard to admit to feel stuck, especially as a pet dog trainer myself. But then I have to realize that D is not just the average pet dog and requires more than that.


I went thru the same ordeal with Sting. He didn't want the treat. He blew off corrections. He was after the cat. I agree with the posts and did the same with the leash work and so on. But it also takes a lot of training. Lucky for me I was reading a mystery book that features dogs by Charles Lee Kelley who is also a natural dog trainer. That lead me to Kevin Behan who is the founder of natural dog training. This is his website which explains it About Natural Dog Training | Natural Dog Training and he also wrote a book "Natural Dog Training: Working from the Dog's point of view". What I learned was that the prey drive is what motivates the dog and this training method uses that prey drive to train. So instead of trying to reduce the drive which didn't work, I had to find a way to satisfy it. By doing that, Sting associated me with satisfying his drive which increased the bonding and he became obedient. There are training exercises that do that. The main one is tug - the difference is that the dog always ends up winning after a struggle. And is praised for winning. I use tug as a reward after the obedience work and still do. I do tug as a hunting game. I use 2 tugs on ropes - he waits on the down/stay. When I give the okay - I scoot one tug on the ground - he charges for it - I tug, drop grab the other one and so on until, I give up - slunk my shoulders and walk away he won - then I turn and praise him -he brings the tugs. He gets a treat and again praise for giving me the tugs. This training method really helped me to train Sting .


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I've a 9lb dog. The GSD once passed the 6 months age started to aggress more and more towards the little one during play. The GSD started to develop a big head that I had to eventually pop a few times. Basically, I corrected the dog severely, made it do a long down stay, ignored the dog for a good part of that day. After that, every time she started to get too excited with the little dog, I'd intercept with a word and she'd get the message to tone it down or walk away. Eventually, she stopped it all together on her own, will play mostly laying down with the dog or on her back nowadays. When I have fosters here, those that matches her play level or size they will go all out. She's learned to differentiate.

I'm reading a book by John Rogerson, a dog behaviorist. He said that dogs that aggress towards other dogs most likely have another dog at home that it practice that with first.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Update: it is 5 days later. I had him on the prong inside and outside and just kept him from making contact with the old dog by working / playing with him, focusing on me, NILIF, etc. Since yesterday he is off the prong several times a day and leaves her alone, which I reward with treats once in a while. He does look at her. Then the old dog has noticed that he is limited now so the diva comes over to him and checks things out. One time she stood over his leash!!! So I send her to her crate as well. Things have calmed down nicely and it feels like I have won this part. But I know there is more to come with this boy. I could not have done this without the prong. This dog is teaching me big time and I think I can help people better as a result.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Mary Beth said:


> The main one is tug - the difference is that the dog always ends up winning after a struggle. And is praised for winning. I use tug as a reward after the obedience work and still do. I do tug as a hunting game. I use 2 tugs on ropes - he waits on the down/stay. When I give the okay - I scoot one tug on the ground - he charges for it - I tug, drop grab the other one and so on until, I give up - slunk my shoulders and walk away he won - then I turn and praise him -he brings the tugs. He gets a treat and again praise for giving me the tugs. This training method really helped me to train Sting .


This is kinda like working with two flirt poles? At the end of the game I picture you walking away while he has possession of both tugs, right? Then you walk over to him, give him a treat and pick up both tugs? What is his response? He doesn't try the keep-away-game before you have a chance to give him the treats?


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> This is kinda like working with two flirt poles? At the end of the game I picture you walking away while he has possession of both tugs, right? Then you walk over to him, give him a treat and pick up both tugs? What is his response? He doesn't try the keep-away-game before you have a chance to give him the treats?


It is a mixture of flirt poles and tug. The idea to recreate a hunt 2 wolves fighting over a deer- we are both trying to keep the prey. So once he pounces on one tug I grab the tug by the handle and pull. He pulls back - sometimes I growl - since he is big it is easy to get nose to nose - it really helps to play act - be serious this dinner we are fighting over. I will then weaken and drop that tug but then quickly pick up the other and run - he pounces on that and again I pull, so the game continues until he wins. The idea is to encourage him thru this play to bite , pull, everything that is not allowed outside of the game. Now, at the end of the game when I walk away about 20 ft. he is mouthing the tugs and watching me - I turn when I get to the house and then praise him and ask him to bring me the tugs for a treat - he picks up both in his big mouth and brings them to me. He gives them to me in exchange for the treat and praise and a good rub down. It is interesting that right after tug when we go inside the house and he is thirsty - he will wait until I take a glass of water and stand by his bowl - then we both drink. This whole tug game satisfies his prey drive - he gets to chase - bite and keep the prey. I was astonished that he does this on his own -everything else was an uphill work - he would try something once just to see if it was worth his while then decide it wasn't. But thru this game since I do it after the obedience work - it has reached him and gotten his cooperation. I am wondering if your Ddog may react the same way.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Hans is 2 1/2, and has only now begun to leave the cat alone.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Hans is 2 1/2, and has only now begun to leave the cat alone.


Oh that is only two more years! :crazy:

To MaryBeth: I am gonna fix a couple of these tugs and copy you, see what happens. Thanks!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I am on vacation this week and reintroducing all the dogs and cats. I took the gate down and we all wander upstairs a few times a day. Sometimes it's just to go and make a presence so the cats get used to the dogs just coming and going. I found tonite that once Midnite was able to sniff the cats butt he kinda just walked away, which surprised me. If the cats stay still we are good. Once they move, hiss, or swat I have to intervene. Most of the dogs can walk past the cats without any problems, the golden puppy thinks he can play with everything.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

MaryBeth, that just makes so much sense to me (your description of the fake fight over the deer carcass). I'm sure that I can find at least one or two things Rudy the Rude could learn from that exercise ...thanks, I learned something valuable from this whole discussion...every post was enlightening. When adolescent dogs and pre-teen kids act up in this home, they're usually in NILIF, but when you add in a game too, they could learn a lot more from it. Kinda like when I'm coaching basketball, I make em go harder at each other when I'm aggravated with them...within the game.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> This is kinda like working with two flirt poles? At the end of the game I picture you walking away while he has possession of both tugs, right? Then you walk over to him, give him a treat and pick up both tugs? What is his response? He doesn't try the keep-away-game before you have a chance to give him the treats?





Mary Beth said:


> It is a mixture of flirt poles and tug. The idea to recreate a hunt 2 wolves fighting over a deer- we are both trying to keep the prey. So once he pounces on one tug I grab the tug by the handle and pull. He pulls back - sometimes I growl - since he is big it is easy to get nose to nose - it really helps to play act - be serious this dinner we are fighting over. I will then weaken and drop that tug but then quickly pick up the other and run - he pounces on that and again I pull, so the game continues until he wins. The idea is to encourage him thru this play to bite , pull, everything that is not allowed outside of the game. Now, at the end of the game when I walk away about 20 ft. he is mouthing the tugs and watching me - I turn when I get to the house and then praise him and ask him to bring me the tugs for a treat - he picks up both in his big mouth and brings them to me. He gives them to me in exchange for the treat and praise and a good rub down. It is interesting that right after tug when we go inside the house and he is thirsty - he will wait until I take a glass of water and stand by his bowl - then we both drink. This whole tug game satisfies his prey drive - he gets to chase - bite and keep the prey. I was astonished that he does this on his own -everything else was an uphill work - he would try something once just to see if it was worth his while then decide it wasn't. But thru this game since I do it after the obedience work - it has reached him and gotten his cooperation. I am wondering if your Ddog may react the same way.


Do you have a picture if what you use? You start with both, then scoot one to him, where is the other one? Within his view, behind you? What if they don't chase you for the second one? I see the idea behind it, but I'm not sure I can get mine to follow? Your down on the ground eye level with the dog right?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I played that game this morning. He immediately outsmarted me by getting hold of both; lesson one. 
I didn't get a chance to fix these tug toys with a piece of rope but I am going to. His intensity was high and there were a few close calls regarding hitting my hands; lesson two. 
Also make sure you have equally interesting toys as he taught me that it is easier to let the second choice toy go than the first choice; lesson three. hen I walked over with a treat he willing let go of the toys. Good boy, D!
I think I played it about 10 minutes and he is toast. I loved this game; lots of thinking, interaction and plain fun for both of us. But watch those teeth!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a high drive Lacy (2 years old now). I call him my crack puppy. When he is focused on something, he is intense. 

I have an older (rescue) Mini Dachshund. She rarely plays. She likes to be a total 100% lap dog. 

My Lacy has a fixation on the Doxie. It's her reaction that has him hooked. When she tries to correct him for being pushy, she squeals. He simply can't get enough of her. He is pushy 24/7 with her. Even when they pass eachother through the doorway (him out / her in or visa versa) he fixates on her and forgets what he was doing. 

I have to manage them every moment of the day. He doesn't hurt her -nor is he aggressive towards her, he just pokes and prods and lays on her. He wants her to squeal. 

What I'm doing now, it re-directing him when it comes to the doxie. I set aside a specific amount of time every day to work on this. I 'm curious if I can teach him not to fixate on her. During this time I'll have her on my lap (so I can control him and that is where she wants to be anyway). When he focuses on her and I tell him to "leave it" and then I say "Bring it!". I want him to bring me a toy. I'll play fetch with him with one hand, while I protect her with the other. 

I've been doing this for less than a month now. We started where he couldn't focus on my command long enough to actually bring me a toy. Now when I have them together and put her on my lap, he brings a toy. He will leave long enough to fetch it and bring it back. He still trys to shove the toy down her throat when he returns, but we are working on that step now. 

This might sound like a silly thing to do - take so long to teach something. But if you could see how difficult it is for him to break that over the top fixation he has long enough to fetch the toy - I am very proud of where he is at now. And it has increased his drive in playing fetch. I now use the same toy as a reward in Agility, where before it was treats.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

llombardo said:


> Do you have a picture if what you use? You start with both, then scoot one to him, where is the other one? Within his view, behind you? What if they don't chase you for the second one? I see the idea behind it, but I'm not sure I can get mine to follow? Your down on the ground eye level with the dog right?


I use 2 foot long tugs one handle. I got them from Leerburg. Though I think any kind would work as long as it can be attached to a lead. I do use 6 ft. 1/2 inch leashes because they are easy to attach and I have handles to hold on to. I do wear leather gloves. At the beginning Sting has to wait on the down or sit stay by the house while I walk out holding both tugs up. I walk about 20 ft. go out of his sight then come back. If he tries to get up - I walk up again to the house and give the hand signal to go back down which he does. So this builds up the pregame excitement. Then I turn and face him and lower my hand that holds the tugs - and scoot one on the ground - I hold the other behind me - he will come charging out right at it - so I have it turn - he grabs it - I drop the other in back of me and get a close grip on the tug by the handle so the tugging can being - then I act tired let go but quickly grab the other one and run - he drops his tug and chases after mine - and soon. It does go fast - if he should get both tugs that doesn't stop me - I keep pulling one then the other - sometimes he will loosen one up and I ran with that one. My Sting is big 30 inches tall and I am a little over 5 ft. so it is very easy to get nose to nose. My Sting is also greedy he wants both tugs, so when I have the second one he chases after me and drops his to grab mine - that is how I got him to fetch with a ball - i use 2 balls. For your dogs, I would start with the one that has the highest prey drive - if the dog is smaller and you are much bigger then think of yourself as the wolf and your dog as the coyote but you are both fighting over the deer. So try hunching yours shoulders and staring and growling like a wolf would do. The dog with high drive like mine will react by biting down harder and biting further up the tug to get at the handle.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

OP, I've an elderly tabby cat here and a 2 year old intact GSD who spent the ENTIRE first year of his life obsessed with the cat to the point of driving us all up the walls. Fast forward a year and neither he or the cat have any real interest in each other. I found that concentrating on Archer's love of games while the cat was present was really helpful, he'd ditch bothering that cat in a second for a game. It also helped that our cat is a smart little bugger and never ran when he was charged- which frankly, citing size disparity - is really brave of him.
Either way, with training and controlled exposure your dog and smaller dog will find a way to co-exist in harmony, I'm sure of it. Check out photo I took recently of cat strolling under Archer's belly as evidence


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Another fun game: put all his toys in a bucket and let him fetch them one after the other.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Juliem24 said:


> MaryBeth, that just makes so much sense to me (your description of the fake fight over the deer carcass). I'm sure that I can find at least one or two things Rudy the Rude could learn from that exercise ...thanks, I learned something valuable from this whole discussion...every post was enlightening. When adolescent dogs and pre-teen kids act up in this home, they're usually in NILIF, but when you add in a game too, they could learn a lot more from it. Kinda like when I'm coaching basketball, I make em go harder at each other when I'm aggravated with them...within the game.


:thumbup: Excellent point! My vet told me also that this game is also good for the human. I find it to be an great stress reliever and good exercise. Interesting that the harder I play the game, the more Sting enjoy it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Update: after playing these games several times, he is a changed dog!! He fetches reliably, not trying to outsmart me anymore and biddable. This is the dog I wanted to see. Thanks for all the tips! But I am keeping in mind that he still has to go a long way towards adulthood. But at least I am having fun with him now!


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## bruiser (Feb 14, 2011)

My GSD tries to bully my old black lab, he is very jealous and possessive. I have to be swift and vigilant when he attempts this behavior. If my lab is on the bed or couch with me and he tries to flea bite squeeze in, he is immediately made to lay on the floor next to the couch or bed. I don't allow that behavior at all between them. My lab is about 14 yrs old and now has a degenerative eye illness and arthritis (just like me). She deserves to live out her senior yrs without being bullied.

The good thing about bruiser (GSD) is he is also very protective and pack oriented and would never let anything happen to my lab stella. He actually adores her. I love them both with all my heart:wub:


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