# Speak Help



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

I have been trying to teach my 11 month old to speak on command for weeks now.

I have made the hand barking signal when she is barking and said speak and rewarded her, she usually stops barking the minute I say "speak".

I have done what the decoy at Shutzhund has advised, hold her favorite treat in my hand and wait for her to speak before I give it to her. She just ends up going through a bunch of other commands that she has been taught thinking one of these tricks must be right, platz, sitz, paw....

Does anyone have another way to teach to speak? My girl is pretty smart, but she is just not getting this.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Can you back-tie her and use that to stimulate some frustration and drive?


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Why do you want her to speak? That would be my first question.


----------



## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

The time to teach speak is when they are young puppies and play bark all the time. I taught one of my girls at around 4 months and she has a great speak. My other girl, whom I acquired when she was 1, has never learned it.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I just think its a fun thing to teach and I love the whisper-its strange because the one dog I have that loves it bark-it took me longer to teach it to her-you could try a toy-it might just take time


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Why do you want her to speak? That would be my first question.


It is required at our Shutzhund. They have to speak on command when going in front of the decoy at the blind.


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

CeCe said:


> The time to teach speak is when they are young puppies and play bark all the time. I taught one of my girls at around 4 months and she has a great speak. My other girl, whom I acquired when she was 1, has never learned it.


Oh no, I hope that is not the case for Stella.


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

holland said:


> I just think its a fun thing to teach and I love the whisper-its strange because the one dog I have that loves it bark-it took me longer to teach it to her-you could try a toy-it might just take time


The decoy did that with her, and he looked at me and say, you still have not taught her to speak...:blush:


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me a fun "speak" command is not the same as an active guard. If the dog won't bark in guarding, you need to work on that issue with the helper. The dog needs to be in the right state of drive/frame of mind and most of that depends on how your helper is working the dog. Learning a "speak" command at home won't hurt but won't really help either, other than showing the dog it's OK to bark (sometimes) but if the dog is not barking or guarding I don't think a speak command alone will overcome that. I use a "pass auf" command in Schutzhund and SDA (I require my dogs to enter the field/facility under control and then *I* tell them when to start barking, so long as the helper is on the same page and not getting in my dog's space before that) but usually adding the pass auf command comes with adding control; I'm training the dog to turn on AND off at the same time on my command, not just training it to bark.


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Can you back-tie her and use that to stimulate some frustration and drive?


I will try that. We worked on that a bit last week at protection. She has only done protection training 3x, so maybe that added stimulation will help.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you're both new at this I would leave the protection and guarding training to an experienced helper. At first I thought you just meant training the dog to speak for fun. That just involves getting the dog to bark and putting it on cue. Guarding in protection is entirely different.


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Liesje said:


> To me a fun "speak" command is not the same as an active guard. If the dog won't bark in guarding, you need to work on that issue with the helper. They need to be in the right state of drive/frame of mind. Learning a "speak" command at home won't hurt but won't really help either, other than showing the dog it's OK to bark (sometimes) but if the dog is not barking or guarding I don't think a speak command alone will overcome that. I use a "pass auf" command in Schutzhund and SDA (I require my dogs to enter the field/facility under control and then *I* tell them when to start barking, so long as the helper is on the same page and not getting in my dog's space before that) but usually adding the pass auf command comes with adding control; I'm training the dog to turn on AND off at the same time on my command, not just training it to bark.


She barks at home all the time when there is activity outside the front door or when looking out through the back doors onto the lake if people are going past our yard. She also barks when she wants to play and get your attention.

I am so new at Shutzhund, so we are not quite at the point where we are walking out on the field with control. The folks at our club still consider her a puppy and they want me to run out with her enthusiastically. This has not been a problem so far because she does love to go out on the field and work with the decoy.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

That's fine, I just wanted to illustrate that when I add commands to barking in SchH it's generally at the point that the dog is already doing the barking naturally and I'm adding a cue and then some control. If she comes out excited to work but never barks in the blind, I don't think that's an issue you can fix at home. What does the helper suggest? Is s/he working on the guarding?


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Liesje said:


> If you're both new at this I would leave the protection and guarding training to an experienced helper. At first I thought you just meant training the dog to speak for fun. That just involves getting the dog to bark and putting it on cue. Guarding in protection is entirely different.


Yes, I get your point, but it my clubs decoy that has asked me to work on it with her. I have to take her again tomorrow and I feel like I have not gotten anywhere in the past week. I might try the back tie suggestion this evening with her while she has her agitation collar on and I will have my husband hold her while I will play with a toy and if she barks I will treat her with a high value reward.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I'm confused about what he wants you to work on? Putting the play barking on cue? For protection or for obedience?


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Liesje said:


> That's fine, I just wanted to illustrate that when I add commands to barking in SchH it's generally at the point that the dog is already doing the barking naturally and I'm adding a cue and then some control. If she comes out excited to work but never barks in the blind, I don't think that's an issue you can fix at home. What does the helper suggest? Is s/he working on the guarding?


oh, we are not running the blinds yet, except once, the decoy just wanted to see if she would come around and find him. She did, and I am glad about that. 
I don't remember if she barked that one time we did it.
Our club decoy wants to see her bark while I am holding her back and he is waving the toy around.


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I guess I'm confused about what he wants you to work on? Putting the play barking on cue? For protection or for obedience?


I am guessing obedience since he wants me to work on it at home....but I have not asked him that question.


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks everyone...you have helped me to understand better the mechanics of the frame of mind for guard barking and fun barking.

Now I am wondering why my decoy would have me work on obedience barking since that frame of mind does not translate on the field for guard barking. 

My dog does bark at home when she is alerting us to something, so I hope that translates to guard barking when needed on the field.


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We've had a few over the years that get so locked in during the work that they just clam up. Those have been taught to speak on command and then given the command at a point in bitework then are given the bite as the reward for barking (kind of a simplified version of it). My own current girl did not even remotely want to bark when there was a helper in range with a bite object, sleeve or wedge, whatever. We taught her gib laut for a ball, since that really got her psyched and then transitioned it over to a hold and bark. First for one bark, then a few barks. It was actually pretty funny to watch her and still is as she has a habit of turning her head when she barks like she's trying to show you how animated she can be when she barks.(She's always done the overly exaggerated head thing, since she was a tiny thing)
We had another dog in the club a couple of years back that was similar, would just go into an intense stare and not bark once the helper got within a certain range. Her handler figured out that she would bark like crazy if she saw one of their kids on a skateboard, so he used that to teach her to bark on command. Once she got it, she was a champ LOL. She just got her SchhII.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If she alerts at home I would not worry. Without seeing your decoy work the dog, it's impossible for us to tell, but based on what you've said it sounds like he's doing more prey stuff if he's waving a toy around. Dogs with high prey drive can get "locked in", meaning they are so focused on the object they *won't* bark. If he wants good, deep barking he needs to work your dog in a frame of mind conducive to that behavior. I'm not a helper/decoy and again can't see the dog working so I can't really say how to do that, that should be up to him if he knows what he's doing. There are some big differences in how clubs/decoys work dogs. 

Some people like their dogs to bark at them during obedience to get them pumped up. One of mine I let do this, the other I don't because he gets overloaded too quick and then won't shut up for the actual exercises (dog should not be barking or whining while performing the exercises).


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

bocron said:


> We've had a few over the years that get so locked in during the work that they just clam up. Those have been taught to speak on command and then given the command at a point in bitework then are given the bite as the reward for barking (kind of a simplified version of it). My own current girl did not even remotely want to bark when there was a helper in range with a bite object, sleeve or wedge, whatever. We taught her gib laut for a ball, since that really got her psyched and then transitioned it over to a hold and bark. First for one bark, then a few barks. It was actually pretty funny to watch her and still is as she has a habit of turning her head when she barks like she's trying to show you how animated she can be when she barks.(She's always done the overly exaggerated head thing, since she was a tiny thing)
> We had another dog in the club a couple of years back that was similar, would just go into an intense stare and not bark once the helper got within a certain range. Her handler figured out that she would bark like crazy if she saw one of their kids on a skateboard, so he used that to teach her to bark on command. Once she got it, she was a champ LOL. She just got her SchhII.


Your dog sounds like quite the character....and that is encouraging that the dog just received her SchhII!


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Liesje said:


> If she alerts at home I would not worry. Without seeing your decoy work the dog, it's impossible for us to tell, but based on what you've said it sounds like he's doing more prey stuff if he's waving a toy around. Dogs with high prey drive can get "locked in", meaning they are so focused on the object they *won't* bark. If he wants good, deep barking he needs to work your dog in a frame of mind conducive to that behavior. I'm not a helper/decoy and again can't see the dog working so I can't really say how to do that, that should be up to him if he knows what he's doing. There are some big differences in how clubs/decoys work dogs.
> 
> Some people like their dogs to bark at them during obedience to get them pumped up. One of mine I let do this, the other I don't because he gets overloaded too quick and then won't shut up for the actual exercises (dog should not be barking or whining while performing the exercises).


Yes, I would agree, he is working on her prey drive, and has just begun to work a bit on her bite. We have gone to protection 3x or 4x so far, so he is still getting a feel for my girl. He said her prey drive is good, not the best he has seen, but good. .


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I asked why you wanted her to bark because how you answered would determine my response.  

IMO getting a dog to bark in protection is the responsibility of the helper. He needs to do the right work to get her to bark and she needs to be at the right level of drive. There are a lot of dogs that will not bark while in prey and it sounds like he is mostly working prey with your dog right now. Barking can be encouraged through frustration, through defense or suspicion work. It may also just come as she starts to mature and she can be pushed a bit more in the work.


----------



## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

Kind of the opposite, but I taught Brody how to "say nothing." He does know how to speak on command. When I say "say nothing" he chomps his jaws together like an alligator without actually barking. Kinda cute I think


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Lesley1905 said:


> Kind of the opposite, but I taught Brody how to "say nothing." He does know how to speak on command. When I say "say nothing" he chomps his jaws together like an alligator without actually barking. Kinda cute I think


Kind of like air biting?


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I asked why you wanted her to bark because how you answered would determine my response.
> 
> IMO getting a dog to bark in protection is the responsibility of the helper. He needs to do the right work to get her to bark and she needs to be at the right level of drive. There are a lot of dogs that will not bark while in prey and it sounds like he is mostly working prey with your dog right now. Barking can be encouraged through frustration, through defense or suspicion work. It may also just come as she starts to mature and she can be pushed a bit more in the work.


Thanks Lisa. I will let him know tonight that I have been trying to get her to bark on command.
I will give the helper some of her special treats tonight (she loves the canyon creek duck jerky treats) and maybe he can begin frustrating and agitating her by withholding them from her while I have her on the agitation collar.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That wasn't exactly what I meant.  I would not want my dog learning to bark at my helper as a game for treats.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

lhczth said:


> That wasn't exactly what I meant.  I would not want my dog learning to bark at my helper as a game for treats.


:thumbup:

The first thing I noticed, before even opening this thread was the use of the word "speak". To me in SchH the word is completely out of context. Speak is a trick the dog does for cookies. The bark and hold the dog does in the blind is a reaction to the presence of the helper. It is called guarding because the dog is controlling the helper with his voice.

some dogs are more vocal in prey work, and perhaps it helps later to develop the bark and hold, but asking your helper to give treats is to pervert the sense of the exercise. Maybe you can use those yummy treats to teach speak in command so she discovers she has a voice to use it later, but when people advice it's the helper the one who ultimately teaches the dog to bark it is not as a trick, but as putting he dog in the correct drive.


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Good point for the Speak and Bark and Hold. 
I am just so new at Shutzhund and boy do I have a lot to learn. I should have asked the decoy why he thought it was so important that she bark while they are working on prey drive.

Like I said, she barks at home all the time, so I am not worried that she won't bark, I was just more concerned with her barking on command, and now reading the posts, it seems it is really only needed when used for the bark and hold/guard in the blinds.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Even in a protection sport like SDA, the dog doesn't really bark on command. Generally, the dog wants to bark anyway but is told *not* to, and then when there is a threat, you give a command but the dog was going to start barking anyway (and in some of the scenarios, you aren't required to give a command, the dog *should* guard on its own). In SchH you don't command your dog to bark, you send it to the blind and it barks. Normally they start barking at the hot blind but heck, I've seen a few dogs bark running all six blinds and still show control. From there on out, you're basically telling your dog to *stop* barking when you pick it up after the re-attack, long bite, etc. So if your dog is not barking during protection when she should, that's not a problem with a command but the dog not being the right frame of mind to bark, and it's really the helper's job to work the dog correctly depending on what you're trying to accomplish. If working on barking and guarding is the goal, the helper needs to work the dog in a way that accomplishes this. That probably sounds vague but again, this really depends on how *you* train and how your helper works dogs. I'm assuming he's got some sort of program, might not appreciate us being armchair helpers on the Internet


----------



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Even in a protection sport like SDA, the dog doesn't really bark on command. Generally, the dog wants to bark anyway but is told *not* to, and then when there is a threat, you give a command but the dog was going to start barking anyway (and in some of the scenarios, you aren't required to give a command, the dog *should* guard on its own). In SchH you don't command your dog to bark, you send it to the blind and it barks. Normally they start barking at the hot blind but heck, I've seen a few dogs bark running all six blinds and still show control. From there on out, you're basically telling your dog to *stop* barking when you pick it up after the re-attack, long bite, etc. So if your dog is not barking during protection when she should, that's not a problem with a command but the dog not being the right frame of mind to bark, and it's really the helper's job to work the dog correctly depending on what you're trying to accomplish. If working on barking and guarding is the goal, the helper needs to work the dog in a way that accomplishes this. That probably sounds vague but again, this really depends on how *you* train and how your helper works dogs. I'm assuming he's got some sort of program, might not appreciate us being armchair helpers on the Internet



LoL, I would not mention internet helpers, I will just ask questions in general, because I know our decoy has been doing this a long time and he works with the police in training too. I will just ask more questions as to what he wants us to do and what he wants to accomplish while working Stella and that should be ok. He knows I am a newbie and there is another guy with a puppy that is a newbie too so he kinds of expects us to be clueless.


----------

