# IPO 3 tracking



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

I am looking for a solution to a slight problem with my tracking. After indicating the article, my dog always platz and looked straight ahead now on my last track she is doing a platz indicating correctly but will slightly turn staying in her platz to look at me. This has occurred as I reward for article indication. She is a great V tracker but I do not want to lose these points as you never know what will happen on trial day. 

Looking for a solution that does not involve another person rewarding her. Some have suggested being very close to her when indicating article. and then slowly lengthen the distance from her. 

Thanks in advance for your suggestions


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

do you straddle her or go to either side when walking up during training? If you are rewarding from the same side every time, it may be a habit instilled for her to look.


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

good point, I have straddled her but mostly approach from the same side. I can change this up and see what happens. do you suggest approaching from the other side for some time, and straddle and then switch it up and be very random with my approach.

I guess I should start close to her when she is indicating and then slowly lengthen my distance as well


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That is what I do. Vary how I approach. Sometimes I have had to use a verbal correction "no, down" if they move.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lsatov said:


> good point, I have straddled her but mostly approach from the same side. I can change this up and see what happens. do you suggest approaching from the other side for some time,* and straddle and then switch it up and be very random with my approach.*
> 
> I guess I should start close to her when she is indicating and then slowly lengthen my distance as well


Yes, randomize it and possibly even wait a couple seconds before you approach.


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Excellent suggestions. I would add a couple of things to try to what others have mentioned. In addition to approaching from both sides randomly, only reward when the dog is looking at the article. Are you rewarding with food? If so, then only pay when the dog is focused and intensely looking at the article. You can point to the article and whisper something like "show me" or watch, or a positive marker like "yes." When the dog is fixated on the article, then you pay. Give a slight negative marker if the dog looks back at you. Then the positive marker and some low level praise. Like "Yessssss, goooooddd" almost under your breath. I have done a "slight of hand" trick and drop food with out the dog seeing it right behind or in front of the article, depending on the dog and it's position. 

The dog knows the reward is coming from you and that is why it is looking back. We can only trick our dogs a few times, then they know exactly where the reward comes from. The obedience kicks in when the dog must lock up and stare at the article for it's indication. This is a relatively easy thing to teach if this what you want to achieve. You may need to go back to reteaching the article indication for a few sessions, only rewarding when the dog stares and focuses intensely on the article.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is a dog driven to track , you know that , the experts that you have worked with that know that and have said so.

your attempt to "reward" is distracting her.

try a session where you walk up , do your regular "thing" with the article and send her on to track. That is her reward.
Your permission to track some more ! She will be looking ahead because that is where the track is .


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

Great suggestions from all. She does know show me and will touch the article. Just was out doing a quick track staying close to her and approaching from the different side, she was looking straight ahead, and her position was perfect. I rewarded with food dropped from above on the article.

I then did the same thing staying close but approached on the usual side again perfect position, did no look back. I wonder if it is a distance thing. Taking too long in her mind to reward her. Perhaps continue to stay close to her but lengthen the time that I reward. or just slowly increase my distance.

What does everyone think would be the next steps. Really need to get this in the next 3 weeks


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

Carmen, yes I thought about that,but last fall I ran into a problem as the track was the most impt part to her and the articles not so much. I needed to balance this out and increase the value of the article. articles are 7 points each and there are 3. Last year perfect track of 79 no points for articles. do not want to rpt that again.

I do not use food on the track at all just after she indicated the articles, Maybe need to slightly re balance. but if she is going to indicate I want it straight, and too stay straight.
The article is perfectly between her legs, with good speed.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Is there even a point loss for looking back while indicating an article?


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

let me put it this way if 2 dogs have amazing tracks how does the judge decide. The judge will go to the better picture.
but the real point is she is just not looking back , she does the perfect indication and then she will roll on her left hip, article still perfect between her legs. This you will lose points for can be up to 1 point per article and there are 3 articles,


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sorry, I did not realize your dog was doing more than simply looking at you. Good luck fixing it!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

can you go in front of her to pick up the article , then reward her --you still being in front ?

don't make problems . Pick your fights . Stay with the strong indication.


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

interesting idea for training, can not do that in the trial need to pick up article at her side but how far up her side is another question. I need to check out if I can approach on left side to pick up the article can not recall if the rules indicate which side you need to go to, I know you need to be by her side left or right to restart the track. Will check this out


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I happen to agree with picking your fights and not making problems. IPO as you know has 3 phases, the tracking, obedience and protection work. When a person is getting ready for a trial there are a lot of areas to focus on, it can be stressful for the handler, but even more stressful for the dog. Sometimes in our quest for the perfect performance and the 300 point routine, more points are lost than gained. I have seen plenty of IPO competitors push hard to fix a minor problem, only to lose more points in another phase. Sometimes, going for the perfect routine and that extra couple of points costs more in the long run. 

My point is that the three phases are balancing act to train a dog to a high level in. When stress, pressure or high expectations are placed in one phase or even one exercise, points may be sacrificed some where else. This can be very subtle and not always easy to see. Think of it like a see saw with 3 seats and trying to balance all three perfectly, it is not an easy task. I would not worry too much about a couple of points on the articles. It may cost more in the long run. I would still train the dog for the perfect indication, but I wouldn't get all wrapped around the axle over it either.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

agree with the nit-picking...but changing up your approach may just fix it easily. 
At least your dog isn't one to start as soon as you pick up the article, that is my problem and it is a harder fix than the looking back issue you have(which really isn't a big deal, if your dog is showing obedience to the track and indicating the articles)


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I'd just alternate approaches to the article, and reward center, from above the head. If you're trialing in 3 weeks then I definitely wouldn't be changing up too much otherwise.

In my experience, there is no point loss for looking back at the handler, so long as the position held is correct. And it shouldn't be a reflection of score, even comparing against other dogs who don't look back. Correct indication is correct indication. As long as the dog is quick to down, the article is between the legs, and the dog doesn't bother the article, there should be zero associated point loss.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

lsatov said:


> interesting idea for training, can not do that in the trial need to pick up article at her side but how far up her side is another question. I need to check out if I can approach on left side to pick up the article can not recall if the rules indicate which side you need to go to, I know you need to be by her side left or right to restart the track. Will check this out


You have to restart from the same side you pick up the article from.


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

thanks Steve good to know, next question do I need to pick up on the same side for each article?


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

gator dog, she is not just turning her head she will roll on her left hip, there is a point loss. I think the problem is distance related. The closer I am I do not get this behavior.
the article is always indicated correctly and is always between her legs, but she will roll on her left hip. She has just started this so hopefully I can change it up by changing sides and distance from her.

slamdunc, appreciate your input, but she is an amazing tracker and of all the 3 phases this is her greatest strength. I can not control the weather, I can not control how the track is laid and they are never my concern because she will work this out but 3 easy points I will not give up. I have no stress in tracking, all I have to do is hold on to the end of the line and she does all the work. She tracks to track, She is capable of 97 pt score and I would like to set her up on the easy stuff and then deal with what ever mother nature gives us. 

onyx girl thanks for your input, know an easy way to solve your issue.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You must pick up and restart all of the articles the same way so if you do one on the left, you must do all on the left.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You'd have to think about whether this would be right for your dog or not lsatov, but I hand the line to who I'm tracking with and he checks him when I give a verbal.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

laurel -- this is your first dog in IPO .
for the longest time your nerves , totally understandable , were the handicap.

you have done a great job . 

what would your mentors say ? 

totally agree "Sometimes in our quest for the perfect performance and the 300 point routine, more points are lost than gained. I have seen plenty of IPO competitors push hard to fix a minor problem, only to lose more points in another phase. Sometimes, going for the perfect routine and that extra couple of points costs more in the long run. "

that was my point in not changing things up.

the dog could track over burnt vegetation if left to her own devices , no worries there

I am afraid that if you start hyper micromanaging things now you will add confusion -- YOU aren't going for a walk with the dog - afterall which of you is tracking? -- relaxed and with trust in your canine partner -- YOU will be flustered , over thinking - stop thinking ! -- and you will change, posture , voice , scent , instead of going through the ROUTINE to which you have familiarized yourself , now you have to think on how you approach, the distance , the demeanour ,
being consistent in each indication, re-starting on the same side - which may not be familiar to the PATTERN that you or the dog are used to.

A little late in the game to fuss around.


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The judge can take out points, since the dog would be showing some pressure and not full commitment and confidence. 

But, depends on judge.

I have seen a judge take points from one handler/dog for one look in protection. And not take any point from another dog that kept flipping his head to his handler; it resembled the girl from the Exorcist......


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen is right on point! She is tracking well and indicating well. You are nitpicking for points and in the process you are going to start losing some of the tracking/article indications. I wouldn't try to mess with 1 or 2 point issues if she is giving you a strong 90 point plus performance right now. You are overreacting to this issue in too short a time, imo.


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and recommendations. Met with my friend Sid who helped me train for tracking and provide my dog with a great foundation. Happy to say problem solved it was a very easy fix.

Laurel


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

told you - go back to your mentors.

so what did our friend Sid recommend.


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

I am sworn to secrecy ........


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

lsatov said:


> I am sworn to secrecy ........


Lol. come on. There's no secrets in IPO.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Lol. come on. There's no secrets in IPO.


Looking for free advice on the GSD forum but the actual training is secret :laugh2:


----------



## Stonemoore (Oct 16, 2014)

LOL. Typical Sid! Yep, he'll have to kill you if you spill his secrets.


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

Yep typical very old school, very professional and very blunt. He does detection for a living, works all over the world, 

He is very expensive, you want his help you pay for it. But if your dog is not up to his standards he will not take your money or train your dog.

So without revealing what we did to fix the issue it simply boiled down to pattern training. Has he says all ipo tracking is pattern based, how boring for the dog that loves to track,that wants to work, make the dog think, this increases the drive and the commitment to the work. We did some interesting exercises, changed the position of the long line, changed the reward position and the timing of the reward, and did some free tracking

Hope Sid is not on this forum or I am a dead person.


----------



## Stonemoore (Oct 16, 2014)

I got to spend part of a day with Sid with the bed bug dogs I work with. Super interesting, and very, very good. I was so glad I got to tag along!

Really glad he was able to help you out!


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sid Murray? With the the secret Youtube channel?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lsatov said:


> He is very expensive, you want his help you pay for it.


I'll have to remember. I mean...my trainer isn't cheap so I'll make sure to keep anything she teaches me super top secret too. No freebies for online forums knowledge seekers! :wink2:


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have known Sid since the mid 1970's --- tracking, scent dogs is sort of my wheelhouse.

as I thought free tracking as the reward -- tracking is its own reward in these dogs .


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Sid Murray? With the the secret Youtube channel?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnADkSy3W4w


Look away!


----------

