# like to like?



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I've been rolling this around in my head for some time now and I'm interested in anyone else's take on it? Ultimately there is no right or wrong answer, only opinions, so don't be shy. 

ddr lines were known for low prey drive, so is it better to plan matings between low prey ddr parents? or is it better to plan matings with higher prey individuals from other lines?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Obviously, it would depend on what you want to do with the dogs. If you want to do IPG, a dog with high prey/ball drive would be the way to go. 

If you want a serious protection dog, or are doing police or military work, the prey drive wouldn't be the first consideration. 

OTOH, ball drive (which is a form of prey drive, of course) makes training much easier, because you have a ready reward to give the dog. If the dog has low ball drive, you will have to find something else that's of value as a reinforcer.

Remember the series Alpha Dogs (Von Liche Kennels)? The first thing they looked for when selecting dogs was ball drive. Any dog showing low ball drive was immediately scratched from the program and sent back to the breeder. Makes me wonder if current training methods over-emphasize the importance of this drive.

Interesting discussion topic...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What are you trying to create?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

well hypothetically speaking, what is any ethical gsd breeder trying to create? I guess at best we're attempting to "improve," and/or at least we're trying to meet the breed's standard?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> well hypothetically speaking, what is any ethical gsd breeder trying to create? I guess at best we're attempting to "improve," and/or at least we're trying to meet the breed's standard?


Define ethical.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Is this theoretical or are you planning to breed?


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## KevinK9 (Sep 27, 2020)

@berno von der seeweise

Balance...

Here is a great thread that you might like to read. Some great information from some heavy hitters.

Good Luck.









Prey monkeys?


So there has been a lot of discussion on here about dogs with an abundance of prey drive or "prey monkeys". This brings to mind a question? If the prey drive is coupled with a strong nerve base is this really such a bad thing? What brings this to mind is discussion elsewhere in which Mike...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

What do you want to accomplish with breeding?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Kevin, thank you for posting that link! That is one thread I'm going to bookmark so I can read it and study it in depth! And since it's 13 pages, that is going to take awhile!

One of the best quotes so far:


> Never is a dog 100% purely in one drive or another... when someone says "that dog is working in prey", they mean, that is the drive most prominent. These are terms we use to pigeon whole the state of mind of the dog into one box or another but real life isn't that simple.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

Good ball drive is important. Lot easier to train a dog that lives for the reward. Just keep in mind that ball drive can come out at different ages depending on lines. My first litter I had some early developers with ball drive out of the box. I kept the laid back pup as husband and I are getting up in years. Started to consider getting back in schutzhund after some time away and was worried the ball drive wasn't there. Well about 12-15 months it exploded and by 2 years he was a very intense dog and training currently in sch.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

The fact that "slow to mature" was said to be a hallmark of the old ddr lines comes to mind. I wonder if there's any correlation with aggression? Perhaps more accurately, maybe prey driven dogs/lines/breeds just naturally mature faster? 
The difference between schnauzer and bouvier 30 yrs ago comes to mind. Both strains shared a very close genetic relationship, but the former was more successful in sport, and the latter notoriously a late bloomer. Both have since pretty well slipped away, at least in this country, and that kinda opens up a question of preservation can of worms... at least as it relates to ddr gsd.

in other words it's often said here "the ddr lines are gone" and the database appears to bear that out. Modern working gsd peds universally illustrate ddr backmassing, but closer up they're all crossed to other strains. So, why? Is it just for the sake of sport? do the other strains bring the prey? were the straight ddr lines just too slow to mature? market demand? I'm just trying to piece it together here in my mind? If only vaguely...


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Define ethical.


 for the sake of this discussion, the gsdca code of ethics should be adequate enough

https://www.gsdca.org/images/secured_pdf/COE-application-Dec2016.pdf


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> The fact that "slow to mature" was said to be a hallmark of the old ddr lines comes to mind. I wonder if there's any correlation with aggression? Perhaps more accurately, maybe prey driven dogs/lines/breeds just naturally mature faster?
> The difference between schnauzer and bouvier 30 yrs ago comes to mind. Both strains shared a very close genetic relationship, but the former was more successful in sport, and the latter notoriously a late bloomer. Both have since pretty well slipped away, at least in this country, and that kinda opens up a question of preservation can of worms... at least as it relates to ddr gsd.
> 
> in other words it's often said here "the ddr lines are gone" and the database appears to bear that out. Modern working gsd peds universally illustrate ddr backmassing, but closer up they're all crossed to other strains. So, why? Is it just for the sake of sport? do the other strains bring the prey? were the straight ddr lines just too slow to mature? market demand? I'm just trying to piece it together here in my mind? If only vaguely...


To bring balance.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> To bring balance.


 prey balance?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Overall balance.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

according to the prey monkey thread, thuringian brought the prey ingredient to "the balance" between wurttemberger and swabian components? That's all pretty fascinating to me because it's illustrative of typical "3 way composite" sheep breeding strategies. 

I ran across an odd thuringian reference not long ago. Something about weak ears and something else? Can't remember where yet and it's driving me crazy...


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

meanwhile back in franconia... I recently read some reference to "franconian blood" as well, which I'd never heard of before? according to *wiki* franconia is wurttemberg/west germany and borders thuringia/ddr...










meanwhile back in thuringia... looks like maybe more sheep in thuringia than franconia thesedays, but berno is wary of any "sheepdog" photographed on leash...


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Prey drive comes out earlier than the defense drive and social aggression. By defense aggression I mean response to a threat, and by social I mean aggression because you aren’t a member of the pack. You can also work a younger dog in prey because there isn’t a lot of stress from it. It is a satisfying experience. Defense can be pretty stressful to the dog. If you were trying to be one of those DDR preservation breeders, then go for it. Otherwise, you should probably look to bring more drive in, especially if you aren’t satisfied with it.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

make no mistake, when I say "prey" I mean it in a good way. Obviously too much is too much, so I'm not advocating gsd "extreme" prey monkey prey. I'm still learning as I go here, and therefore_ nowhere near _up to the task of attempting ddr gsd preservation breeding; but I'm no stranger to* preservation breeding *itself, so perhaps down the road?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I should think _some individual_ in a litter would have adequate prey? so perhaps crossing ddr resulted in more of them? sounds way too simple, but what else could it have been?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I should think _some individual_ in a litter would have adequate prey? so perhaps crossing ddr resulted in more of them? sounds way too simple, but what else could it have been?


Just my opinion, if you find your training skills handicapped by a dog with lower prey drive, maybe it isn't the dog that is lacking.

Personally I prefer training a lower prey drive dog because I can get lazy with training. Nice not to have to train a dog not to kill the family cat, or not chase deer, or hike and not worry about it crittering. Think about it. Would you rather be on an isolated trail and your dog disappears chasing a deer or your dog rolls on a dead fish by the river bank? Or how about your dog long gone chasing a rabbit and a creeper appears on the trail? I guess it's personal preference but I prefer strong drive over high drive.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Very broadly generalizing, that’s more or less the point I’m pondering. Saturday night I allowed a crew to stash some heavy equipment on my place for safe keeping until next weekend. Little igor performed swimmingly. The foreman enquired “is that dog mean?” and I answered a wishy washy “well, he’s supposed to be.” Little igor just blinked at him like “yeah, I’m supposed to be.” It was great. And since the moment I closed my gate behind them little igor has been guarding that equipment as though he owned it himself.

But I have to say watching little igor’s relationships with livestock develop and evolve as he’s grown up, and as some of them have grown up with him, has been absolutely amazing. I’m not a member of the cult of breed. To me a dog is just a dog, and either a dog wants to, or it doesn’t. But there seems to be a lot more going on inside little igor’s head than what I’m accustomed to. Maybe a higher level of intelligence? Or discernment?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sounds like little Igor is a random victim of well thought out breeding.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I should probably note that I've bred raised and trained enough prey that _WOULD_ no doubt dive headlong into a volcano on command, but never so "over the top" that it impeded real world performance. So this low prey stuff is still pretty well greek to me? I'm mainly trying to grasp it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> Obviously, it would depend on what you want to do with the dogs. If you want to do IPG, a dog with high prey/ball drive would be the way to go.
> 
> If you want a serious protection dog, or are doing police or military work, the prey drive wouldn't be the first consideration.
> 
> ...


That's because of the method they use for detection training. I was a trainer there.


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