# Which breeder or pedigree is right for me?



## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

I'm new to the whole pedigree type of stuff. All my past dogs were from the Penny saver or adopted from the shelter so the whole blood line stuff is greek to me. Things like working class, AKC, etc. 


I am currently looking for german shepherd puppy that will be in good health, have a stable temperament, is submissive and also low energy. Not unhealthy LOW energy, but more on the relaxed, easy going side. Which is why I would like to avoid working lines and police or sporting lines. The energy required for those dogs would be too much for me to handle. Are there specific "tags" or "labels" that I should look for that represent these qualities? 

I see things like champion blood lines, champion sire, etc. but aside from those 2, I don't know much else. 


The other option is to find german shepherd puppies on craigslist or penny saver and go visit the site and do a thorough inspection and observe the parents for their health and temperament, energy level as I feel that's sometimes a better indicator than blindly choosing a pup based on papers. I don't need a show dog or working dog, a dog for my family with a relaxed and loyal but stable personality. 

Any advice?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Where are you located? What is your price range? How far are you willing to travel or are you willing to ship? We could recommend some breeders based on that.

With your specifications, I would look for a reputable breeder that is used to matching pups to pet homes. Most likely an American showline or West German showline would suit you well. But there are excellent working breeders that could match you with a good pup as well. Once you decide on some breeders, email or call them asking for a "lower drive, very biddable, pet home, stable nerved, family oriented" type GSD. As far as health certs go, ask for OFA or SV certified hips/elbows at the very least. For the OFA, they have to be "fair" or above and A3 or above for the SV. Some breeders will test for DM. Ask for references and follow up with their puppy buyers. If you can, go out and meet their breeding dogs. Make sure the facility and operation looks legitimate. Dogs should be in good health, approachable and well cared for. 

More info:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Where are you located? What is your price range? How far are you willing to travel or are you willing to ship? We could recommend some breeders based on that.
> 
> With your specifications, I would look for a reputable breeder that is used to matching pups to pet homes. Most likely an American showline or West German showline would suit you well. But there are excellent working breeders that could match you with a good pup as well. Once you decide on some breeders, email or call them asking for a "lower drive, very biddable, pet home, stable nerved, family oriented" type GSD. As far as health certs go, ask for OFA or SV certified hips/elbows at the very least. For the OFA, they have to be "fair" or above and A3 or above for the SV. Some breeders will test for DM. Ask for references and follow up with their puppy buyers. If you can, go out and meet their breeding dogs. Make sure the facility and operation looks legitimate. Dogs should be in good health, approachable and well cared for.
> 
> ...


Thanks. You threw a lot of of stuff out there haha. Okay what does OFA and SV mean? Good information though. 

I'm in Southern California and I'm not sure if I'm out of line in thinking of looking with a budget of less than $500. If that's not ideal then no problem. I saw a few on ads that do have AKC papers for less than $500 but like i said, I dont know what that means. Is that even a legit certification or is it preferable to no papers and how much of a difference would it make? 

My standards for my pup isn't stringent and I don't really care all that much to have "top quality" show dogs or "legit" and don't have the money or desire to spend over $1000 for my puppy. I'll love it no matter how much it costs.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

To put it bluntly, you won't find a breeder that we recommend selling their pups for less than 500$. You can expect to pay 800$ and up for working dogs. Probably 1k and up for pet quality showlines. 

It is not an issue of how much the dog costs. It is an issue of HOW that dog was bred and what the breeder's standards are that led to this dog being produced. Responsible breeding is not easy and definitely not cheap. Breeding dogs have to be trained, showed, rated, titled and health certified. Just for one weekend away at a show or trial, you could spend 500+ just on entry and handler fees. Put travel, time and effort in on top of that. It takes years of dedication and hard work to produce good dogs. It's not something that happens by accident. By supporting people that do it the right way, we encourage responsible breeding practices. By choosing to purchase less than optimal dogs from questionable breeders, we fuel that type of operation as well. So it all comes down to what you want. If I were you and wanted to purchase a pup from a breeder, I would go for the best breeder I could find and I would ask for a pet quality pup. The good thing is that pet quality pups are usually priced less and you could even get a discount depending on your case. If you are unwilling to spend over a certain amount, I would encourage you to look into GSD specific rescues. There are several in CA and there are tons of great dogs in shelters. I would much rather support a shelter or rescue by adopting their dog than looking to a shady breeder.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

pancake said:


> Thanks. You threw a lot of of stuff out there haha. Okay what does OFA and SV mean? Good information though.
> 
> I'm in Southern California and I'm not sure if I'm out of line in thinking of looking with a budget of less than $500. If that's not ideal then no problem. I saw a few on ads that do have AKC papers for less than $500 but like i said, I dont know what that means. Is that even a legit certification or is it preferable to no papers and how much of a difference would it make?
> 
> My standards for my pup isn't stringent and I don't really care all that much to have "top quality" show dogs or "legit" and don't have the money or desire to spend over $1000 for my puppy. I'll love it no matter how much it costs.


Ofa/sv are hip certifications. Be very careful going the penny saver/CL route. What ever you think you may save in the initial cost will most likely be lost in healthcare costs and potential behavioral problems.


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## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> To put it bluntly, you won't find a breeder that we recommend selling their pups for less than 500$. You can expect to pay 800$ and up for working dogs. Probably 1k and up for pet quality showlines.
> 
> It is not an issue of how much the dog costs. It is an issue of HOW that dog was bred and what the breeder's standards are that led to this dog being produced. Responsible breeding is not easy and definitely not cheap. Breeding dogs have to be trained, showed, rated, titled and health certified. Just for one weekend away at a show or trial, you could spend 500+ just on entry and handler fees. Put travel, time and effort in on top of that. It takes years of dedication and hard work to produce good dogs. It's not something that happens by accident. By supporting people that do it the right way, we encourage responsible breeding practices. By choosing to purchase less than optimal dogs from questionable breeders, we fuel that type of operation as well. So it all comes down to what you want. If I were you and wanted to purchase a pup from a breeder, I would go for the best breeder I could find and I would ask for a pet quality pup. The good thing is that pet quality pups are usually priced less and you could even get a discount depending on your case. If you are unwilling to spend over a certain amount, I would encourage you to look into GSD specific rescues. There are several in CA and there are tons of great dogs in shelters. I would much rather support a shelter or rescue by adopting their dog than looking to a shady breeder.


This is true. I'm not all familiar what goes into breeding but I bet it's an art and takes a lot of money and time and education into doing it right. Looks like if I want to go with the legit breeder route, I would need to pay $800 or more. 

What does AKC papers mean? Does that mean it is breeder quality?





Nigel said:


> Ofa/sv are hip certifications. Be very careful going the penny saver/CL route. What ever you think you may save in the initial cost will most likely be lost in healthcare costs and potential behavioral problems.


This is true. I'll keep this in mind. My current dog is a german shepherd mix (but mostly german shepherd) and she suffers from hip dysplasia. But I adopted her from rescue when she was 8 years old so didn't have much of a choice there.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

All AKC papers says is that the dog is registered with the AKC and the dog is purebred because the registered dog's parents are purebreds too. Just because a dog comes with AKC papers does not make it breed worthy. All it really says is that the dog is a purebred. Depending on if you have limited or full registration, the AKC papered dog's litters can be registered with the AKC as well. An AKC number is required to participate in venues like sport or conformation. But even a mixed breed dog can get AKC papers. So there needs to be more to the breeding dogs than just "AKC papers".

Think about it like a social security number or passport ID. We all need one for things like employment and records, but just because someone has a SSN doesn't automatically make them a certain type of person. All it says is that they have a number and they are registered in the US.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I would think that GSD rescue would be a perfect place to look if you might be willing to get a dog who is no longer a puppy. There are some really wonderful dogs in rescue who need homes. (And there are sometimes puppies in rescue too!).

Honestly, though, when I think GSD, I don't think low-energy, calm, or submissive. If those are really important criteria for you in your next dog, maybe you should consider another breed?


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## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> All AKC papers says is that the dog is registered with the AKC and the dog is purebred because the registered dog's parents are purebreds too. Just because a dog comes with AKC papers does not make it breed worthy. All it really says is that the dog is a purebred. Depending on if you have limited or full registration, the AKC papered dog's litters can be registered with the AKC as well. An AKC number is required to participate in venues like sport or conformation. But even a mixed breed dog can get AKC papers. So there needs to be more to the breeding dogs than just "AKC papers".
> 
> Think about it like a social security number or passport ID. We all need one for things like employment and records, but just because someone has a SSN doesn't automatically make them a certain type of person. All it says is that they have a number and they are registered in the US.



Ah okay thanks for the explanation! 



BlackthornGSD said:


> I would think that GSD rescue would be a perfect place to look if you might be willing to get a dog who is no longer a puppy. There are some really wonderful dogs in rescue who need homes. (And there are sometimes puppies in rescue too!).
> 
> Honestly, though, when I think GSD, I don't think low-energy, calm, or submissive. If those are really important criteria for you in your next dog, maybe you should consider another breed?


Hmm interesting. I thought that too as GSDs are found in law enforcement, tracking and all sorts of high energy type of work but I also did read there are some laid back submissive ones too that make great pets. When I say relaxed, i don't necessarily mean like english bulldog couch lounge relaxed, but one that is more ... balanced? Like it doesn't bounce around all over the walls, digs everywhere, barks and has all this pent of energy and needs 3 hours of exercise a day. I personally can't stand small dogs that are balls of high energy but I prefer dogs that are more confident, calm yet assertive when needed, quiet and somewhat reserved. Not a surprise seeing as how that is exactly how I am as a person so I like dogs Cane Corsos or Akitas and I believe that's what I'm looking for in a GSD. Although there are some GSDs are that are skittish and wild too.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

A well-bred GSD that is balanced will have an 'off switch' and settle just fine in the house. I've had several GSD's, and NONE required 3 mile hikes/walks every day. Of course, I do have a large fenced in yard, but still.... My new pup is more 'high drive' (I wanted this) and will require more exercise, but should still settle nicely in the house. Submissive isn't a GSD I would want. It's not breed standard. Buying a cheaper dog from a BYB comes with its own set of problems that can cost you more in the long run either at the vet or with behaviorists/trainers. Much better to pay in the beginning and get a well bred GSD who is stable and will be a healthy, stable dog for your family. WL dogs are cheaper than SL dogs. I'm sure that there are breeders who have lower drive WL pups that can help you find what you're looking for. However, I'd do some serious reading on the breed before you make the commitment....as the breed standard really doesn't 'jive' with the description of what you're looking for.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

If you want a guarantee of a low energy dog, definitely go with older ones. That's not really a typical breed trait (nor should be!). Not to say that there might not be a lazy puppy or two in any given litter, but I would be highly skeptical over any breeder who is breeding low-energy and submissive dogs. Definitely not meeting the breed standard there!

Rescue would be a great route for what you're looking for. If you decide on a breeder, do not worry about pedigree...find a good breeder and let them find you the right puppy from what they have comig up in their breedings. I think showline or working line will fit your needs fine as long as you pick a reputable breeder who is good at pairing puppies and families.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

GSDElsa... NICE looking "beast from the east" LOL!!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

pancake said:


> When I say relaxed, i don't necessarily mean like english bulldog couch lounge relaxed, but one that is more ... balanced? Like it doesn't bounce around all over the walls, digs everywhere, barks and has all this pent of energy and needs 3 hours of exercise a day.


The pups and adults out there that don't do those things have had a great deal of effort and time put into them by their owners. Any bored dog is going to bounce off the walls, dig, bark and have pent up energy.

It takes training, LOTS of daily exercise and a committed owner to get there. The dogs just don't come this way, out of the box (so to speak), they are made to be this way.
Sheilah


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I have never had a dog/GSD who needed 3 hours of exercise a day. My most active young dogs might need 3 30-minute (off-leash) walks a day, or 2 walks and 1 15- minute session with the Chuck-it (with an open area that I can throw 100 yards easily/safely). 

On top of that, a young GSD needs to be able to get _really _physically tired at least once or twice a week--they need to burn off that extra energy--which is also something they find incredibly enjoyable and satisfying. (And I just *love* the "aura" they give off when they are in that happy/tired state!) 

But as much as anything else, they need mental stimulation and interaction--physical exercise alone won't make for a happy GSD. A good, healthy GSD is not a passive dog--but nor do they need to be obnoxious and hyper.


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

AKC registered does not mean anything as far as quality goes. All it means is that the dog is in fact what it is being sold as...a German Shepherd. Again, it has nothing to do with the quality of the dog! 

With your budget and what you are looking for, I have the following to recommend. 

Breed Rescue. First of all, you can talk with them about a GSD being right for you. 2nd, you can offer to foster a dog you like to see if you really like the breed. Not to mention, you can get whatever age you want. Some very nice dogs end up in rescue as well. They will be temperament tested, vaccinated, and spayed or neutered, etc. Also, mixes are frequently available...a GSD mixed with something a little more relaxed could be perfect for you! Plus you save a life.

Cons - They know the background of the dog as much as you do. You may have health issues to deal with, but these would be the same (worst case) as getting a dog off of craigslist.

Please do not pick a dog up off craigslist. Half of these "German Shepards" (1/10 people on there will spell the breed wrong, which should be your first warning) are not even GSDs. I have yet to see any that are health tested. You should really steer clear of the people peddling dogs on there...you will most likely regret it.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

TankGrrl66 said:


> Cons - They know the background of the dog as much as you do. You may have health issues to deal with, but these would be the same (worst case) as getting a dog off of craigslist.


If you adopt a rescue who has been fostered, you may not know where it came from before it got into rescue, but you will know what's most important: what's its energy level, and does it have a personality that will fit your life? 

My current foster was low energy and submissive in the shelter--because she was _depressed._ After I got her home, after about two weeks, she unleashed her real personality, and revealed that she's a very high-drive, high-energy, mischievous, clever dog who has great nerves and a ton of "puppy" still in her personality. 

Had I matched her with someone at the shelter, based on her "depressed" personality, it would have been a bad match. However, since I fostered her and got to know the "real" dog, I've got her matched with someone with a Schutzhund background who is super-excited to meet her tomorrow because she'll be such a fun dog to work. 

If you go the rescue route, look for rescues that _foster _their dogs in homes, and you'll be able to find the _perfect _dog. I had an American Show Line dog (around 3 years old) that I fostered over the summer that was very much the personality you are looking for -- they're out there!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Westside German Shepherd Rescue has some GREAT dogs, including some puppies! Westside German Shepherd Rescue

Oooh, look at this 18 month old guy: Preston












> Preston von Pensberg is a stunning 18 month old German Shepherd. Our female canines are constantly flirting with this handsome hunk, vying for his attention. Look at his intelligent face; he is just waiting to see what you would like him to do. Preston is a gentle, friendly guy who is housetrained and good with children. He likes to go for walks, play with his toys and "catch" water coming out of the hose. He has even been known to surf counter tops, so all good-smelling edibles should be kept out of his reach. All in all, this boy is just a big lover and he is willing to prove it by crawling into bed with you. Come meet Preston and go home with a wonderful addition to your family.


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## Scarlettsmom (Jul 12, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I would think that GSD rescue would be a perfect place to look if you might be willing to get a dog who is no longer a puppy. There are some really wonderful dogs in rescue who need homes. (And there are sometimes puppies in rescue too!).
> 
> Honestly, though, when I think GSD, I don't think low-energy, calm, or submissive. If those are really important criteria for you in your next dog, maybe you should consider another breed?


 You took the words out of my mouth.  

If you adopt a slightly older (2-3) year old GSD, you will be able to see the temperment. Our GSD was just shy of 2 and had mostly settled down. We have still done obedience classes with her, and she requires a lot of exercise. She is pretty calm now, but she has her moments. Mainly she is very smart, easy to train and VERY attached to us. :wub:


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## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

Thanks for the abundance of responses. 

okay so few questions and comments. I was thinking about a rescue and there's always a pro and con. The pro of a rescue is you're helping a dog in need and also you get to see first hand the temperament and energy level of the dog right there as an adult and know whether there's a good chance of fitting into your household or not. Getting a puppy is somewhat MORE of a gamble cause a puppy can turn out to be completely opposite of what you were expecting. (natural temperament, regardless of training).

That's the very reason why I adopted my first dog and she is THE BEST DOG ever. She's 9 and I adopted her at 8 as a senior and have no regrets. But I would like to get a younger dog cause to be honest, it makes me really ****in sad to deal with some of the stuff old age brings. Watching my older dog limp cause of hip dysplasia is just crappy and to be honest, I want a buffer zone of when I lose my first dog to whatever reason and my 2nd dog I am going to get now. So I am taking that emotional factor into consideration. But also, I want to raise a puppy and I did miss out on a few things regarding training and things that I would've like to do with a puppy raising from the very beginning, by adopting an older dog. 


That being said, I think I may be overly worried even though I am confident in my training skills and natural behavior, rules and boundaries I set for my dog(s). I'm sure whichever one I go with, once I give it my all in terms of training and love, they'll be just fine. But I do want to mitigate the risk of getting a dog that is a handful. 

What I meant by wanting a "submissive" GSD wasn't so much that I want a dog that is a push over or is on the timid side. It's more that I DON'T want a dog that's dominant. I do not want a dog that is constantly testing me and trying to vie for power. These are all correctable by training and behavior training as a pup, yes but it can't be denied that all pups (even of the same breed) have different temperaments and some are more alpha, stubborn, aggressive and high testosterone, "leader - type" than others and they will be just more difficult to manage than one that is happy to please. I do think there's an art to picking the right pup out of the litter that fits your energy level and family and if I end up with a really high energy, powerful, alpha dog (GSD or not), it will take that much more effort on my family's part to handle that compared to a dog that is more naturally laid back. Laid back meant personality wise, not energy wise. So I hope I didn't come across as looking for a couch lounger. 


Can someone explain what "American blood lines and line breed kaleef kennels" mean?
And what about cantargsd.com?


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## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

Id like to know if anyone can tell me about cantargsd.com and what "line breed kaleef kennels" means?


Also what about this "bloodline" or pedigree: bloodline Va2 Hill Vom Farbenspiel, Jet von haus levinson.

That is german to me.. hah
Not sure if each word indicates some sort of certification...? Or if thats a name of a dog, or breeder? Either way, any opinions?


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