# E Collars.



## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

Okay. Apparently everyone is against using e-collars as a training tool. I can understand why. Put an e-collar in the wrong hands and its like handing a loaded weapon to convicted killer. 

But why is everyone so against them? Does one think they are in humane? Or do people just not understand how they work and like most of america judge a book by the cover. 

I've watched some amazing dogs be put to sleep because of people who judge things before they understood them. One dog in particular stands out. 

 his name was Tye and he was a great Dane mix. Coming from an extensive abusive life style he was a smoking gun for anything that tried to touch him. Drs.put him on dog stabilizers but still he had a bad aggression toward dogs. One day another dog and him had gotten in a fight and the lady that tried breaking the fight up got bit up pretty bad. The responded well to an e collar but she thought not was to in humane to use that as a training tool for her dog. Yet letting him walk around with a Hannibal Lector style muzzle all day was super humane. I remember when she brought The into the office its like he knew he was there to die. He just put little doggy brakes on refused to walk into the office. In my heart I knew it wasn't fair to Tye but professionally it wasn't my choice. My job was to prepare tye to die. I remember sitting with him the owner didn't stay with him she left. I sat there til his last breath. has she just used what the knew and responded to in steady of judging it then the wouldn't have had to be put down. 

So I kindly got permission from some people in the past and voice recorded their views on e collars. And everyone that thinks I'm some uneducated person because I use them as a training tool I find you no better then tyes death angel.his owner who was his death row. 

1.) Pro in some cases. I have already seen a couple of cases, when the person had a really aggressive dog and couldn't handle them. In some cases an e-collar is a safer way to control a dog then a person getting mauled. I remember one when the guy absolutely refused to use it because it was inhumane, then a week later had to put the dog down. That's more humane?

I also see it useful in long distance training in some cases. I'm not against it completely. If used correctly. I use a above ground electric fence - and will use an underground one. My horses are in an electric fence. I've been shocked TONS of times. It doesn't "hurt" so much as startle. DH put a good e-collar on once and shocked himself. It's not as bad as some corrections people use. 

Unless someone is using it as the only training tool and relying only on the e-collar because they are lazy and never put the appropriate time into training there dog then I don't see the big deal about it. I have no problems with people who use them correctly. 



2.) I do like the ecollar and it has so many uses.

What "type" of e-collar would you use? Multi-level? Remote? Bark? Why?
I will only use remote collars because that way the stimulus is coming from me. I will not say correction as it isn't always a correction(examples to come). And the only brands I will use are Tritronics and Dogtra.

How would you describe the way this collar works? This collar is nothing more than a tool just as a prong, choke collar, head halter, or any other device is used.

How do you USE an e-collar?
I use an ecollar in many different instances, mostly for distance stuff. It is an extension of my arm LOL. If we are out at a park it allows my dogs the freedom to wander and be a bit aways and I know I still have control for any noncompliance I may get(if I get it). Of course, before I can use it in that sense the dog needs to know a) what the ecollar is and b) that the dog knows exactly what it is supposed to be doing. If I say come, dog better come because it knows it. I would NEVER use it for training, just enforcing.

I also use the vibration for attention if they cannot hear me. For example, if we are in the woods and they are a little a way and I hear thunder I can "page" my dogs and they know to get by my side. I don't have to yell.

It is also great for deaf dogs. You can use the vibration to get their attention and look at you so you can give them a hand signal.

Great for training for aggression (oh no you didn't). LOL Yes, and I don't mean they get corrected for acting aggressive. It goes back to compliance. You start looking and acting aggressive toward another dog(dog gets zoned in on other dog), I say come. Dog doesn't come. I now have reason to correct, dog did not heed my come command. 

In some cases, I have also seen them used for a handicapped person. A person who does not have the balance or strength to hold a leash or balance when a dog pulls. It gives that person even in a wheelchair, the ability to still be able to exercise their dogs and have control on their dogs. Again, there is still training involved.

How do you *phase out* an e-collar?
I don't. My dogs see an ecollar and they know it means park time. Woohoo, we get to go run around. Will my dogs listen without it, absolutely but as I said before having it on allows me to allow them to get out of ear range and I don't have to scream across the park for them to hear me.

They are a tool like anything else and CAN be used incorrectly just as anything else. Too many people do abuse it however. For example they THINK they know how to use it and stick it on a dog and "zap" for barking or not coming or something. You can never just stick it on a dog and expect it to work. There is training involved. It is not used to train a behavior, simply enforce it.

Generally people who believe that an ecollar is abusive or painful don't have first clue about how to use one. A dog that becomes fearful of the collar was not trained correctly in one. And that is the trainers fault. Heck, I could get my dog to hate a nylon collar if I abused him with it too. It is in the training. It isn't magical. It is simply a tool.


I once saw a quote about one- If you are not capable of training a dog without an ecollar, then you have no right to train with one.
Learn from other's mistakes. You will not be alive long enough to make them all on your own

3.) What about e-collars do you see negatively?
My biggest issue with e-collars is that any dummy off the street can walk in to walmart or the local feed-n-seed, buy an e-collar, and slap it on the dog and start zapping away. And sadly, I see that a lot. Rehabbing a dog from this kind of treatment is not as much fun as you would think.

I would like to see e-collars only available through professionals who would school people in how to use them humanely. Granted that won't stop the frustrated or just plain sadistic owner from mis-using them, but it will help the ignorant ones.


** We have a 1000 word limit. I left a bit over 1300. If you want to include more in another post you are welcome to, but stick to only 1000 words or less. Thank you. ADMIN**


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

"Everyone is against using them as training tools" is an incorrect statement. Lots of trainers and handler/dog teams use them.


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## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

Yes I know this I am a dog trainer. Who just pissed a whole forum.off because I mentioned the use of it

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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Lol I'm not even going to read that. Can't you get your point across in one paragraph? A lot of people here use an ecollar (me included) . They just don't use it on a dog with fear aggression. People jumped on you because you gave advice to use it on a fear reactive dog which is incredibly stupid advice.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

People are against using an e-collar on a puppy to "correct" fearful behavior. Not even remotely the same thing.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I didn't read your entire post. I stopped after the first two paragraphs.

I love shock collars as a training tool and have used them for some very rough cases. I hate your views on them, though, and do not think you use them safely whatsoever and would never trust someone with your views to train a dog.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

halo2013 said:


> Yes I know this I am a dog trainer. Who just pissed a whole forum.off because I mentioned the use of it
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lol, who's mad? The only one that's mad so far is you. I understand, I've been on your end of this debate, it's frustrating and angering. I just don't think it's a huge fight worth picking. Everyone will train the way they train, if people ask me about ecollars I try and educate why/how/when they are used in our program (if they're used).

I personally like the idea behind them even better than the pinch because it removes the connection of the negative to the trainer/handler, and can result in conflict-free training as well as crystal clear instructions to the dog. There are, of course, down sides like any other tool. I just am tired of this debate, it's usually the fanatics that start slinging crazy dog abuse/lack of experience/inability to connect enough with the dog resulting in "need" for the ecollar-type allegations....and neither I nor you are going to convince those personalities that an ecollar isn't the evil "electric bolt/shock/electrocuting" (whatever other fear inducing buzz word is currently being used) abuse device they claim it to be.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I hope Lou Castle comes on here and teaches you how to use one correctly...


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Hmmmm, I also didn't read your entire post, just got the general gist of it....and apparently I am missing something here and need to read OP's previous posts....


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

OP, sorry.....anyone can say they are a trainer, and I've seen more terrible trainers/handlers than I have seen good ones in the short amount of time I've been heavily involved in the sport world (especially on the pet trainer side of things)....so it really means zip to me when someone says they are a trainer. Like that's some golden ticket that means no one should question their methods or theories.

ETA: Here's Lou Castle's website. Maybe it'll help you out a little.

http://www.loucastle.com/crittering


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

In the other thread you are referring to, no one came out against an ecollar being used except in the circumstances in that thread.

The pup, 5 mth old, per the OP's post and history given is or has the potential of fear aggressive, most likely genetic - again per the Op's post. Your recommendation was to zap it for reacting to what it is afraid of. That is a set up for failure, especially when you mix in an overwhelmed new owner.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Okay, I read/skimmed the other thread....I didn't see ANYONE saying that ecollars were bad...I actually saw a bunch of people that advocate and some that even use the tool, only suggesting that your method/use of one in that situation wasn't right.....so confused at what you're angry about?? People disagreeing with your method? You aren't a trainer, you're still in classes, yet you've "been training dogs for 5 years"?????? On what basis were you training? It's been awhile since I've seen a "trainer" suggest forced interaction in a fear aggressive dog....sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Oy vey. This thread should make for interesting reading later. I'd actually really love Lou Castle to comment on the other thread with his thoughts on OP's suggestions, maybe you'd take his thoughts less defensively than the other posters?


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## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

Okay you didn't read much. I graduated a school already. But when i moved wanted to make sure I had a decent round about knowledge on the field. So yes. I have a degree in it. I did my schooling. But I want more knowledge. Then just what I was shown. I like other view points learning is part of being a in a profession. 

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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I did not read your entire post. You need to read the rules since you are new. We have a 1000 word limit and that is 2703 words per MS Word .........so you may find your post deleted by the moderator of this section of the forum.

Everybody is not against ecollars. You would know that if you read many posts here in support of their proper use. I feel you can really mess up a dog with the improper use of one but they can be an excellent tool.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I use e collars correctly. Not against it at all. I am definitely against someone writing a post of that length on a forum about any subject. Lol how ridiculous. 

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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> I use e collars correctly. Not against it at all. I am definitely against someone writing a post of that length on a forum about any subject. Lol how ridiculous.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes!

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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> I use e collars correctly. Not against it at all. I am definitely against someone writing a post of that length on a forum about any subject. Lol how ridiculous.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Yes!!! lol


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

halo2013 said:


> Yes I know this I am a dog trainer. Who just pissed a whole forum.off because I mentioned the use of it
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That's just not true, many members use them. 

BTW per forum rules 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/announcement html posts need to be no longer than 1000 words so this will be edited.


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## Jmfhella (Jun 20, 2004)

I used one to proof my older guys recall. They can be a great training tool used correctly IMO.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Is Lou Castle in the house?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I will say, depending on the dog, vibration can be worse then a stim. I had one who HATED the vibration.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Going to a school to learn and learning from experience are not the same when it comes to training or changing the behavior of dogs. 
Many of us use an ecollar, and it always depends on the dog, the reason for use, and the way it is applied. 
I looked at the schools website that you went to Halo. How many hours do you put in before you are certified?


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## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

Oh really? I've never seen a dog react negatively to vibration. Have seen dogs.lose their minds over the sound collars tho. Guess it just depends on your poets reaction level to the collar in general. My girl is so laid back to everything. And has grown so stubborn its ridiculous.

But I can see how vibration can be an irritant.

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## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Going to a school to learn and learning from experience are not the same when it comes to training or changing the behavior of dogs.
> Many of us use an ecollar, and it always depends on the dog, the reason for use, and the way it is applied.
> I looked at the schools website that you went to Halo. How many hours do you put in before you are certified?


Oh. So does the same apply for drs. Dr assistants. Vet techs? 

They go to school so they aren't certified until they've been around the block

Every career starts somewhere am I Cesar Milan? No. But I have 5 yrs exp. Am i god. No. Do i have a lot to learn yes. Back the **** up off? Greatly appreciated. 

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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Gosh you seem to have a major chip on your shoulder? 

Did you read the forum rules? It also applies to swearing, and pseudo swearing which is not allowed.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

halo2013 said:


> Oh. So does the same apply for drs. Dr assistants. Vet techs?
> 
> They go to school so they aren't certified until they've been around the block
> 
> ...


Yes. Assistants and techs that have primarily learned their trade through school are easy to pick apart from those who learned by working their butts off in shelters or clinics. Usually the later are much more keen/better... because they've been doing it longer and have more hands-on experience. The degree/certification means very little. This is why so many clinics (mine included) aren't likely to hire someone who's been through school just because they've been through school. Nothing substitutes experience, and that's what people look for. We're more likely to hire people without a degree or certification here if they are good at what they do, because that gets them further. Usually they have more years in actually doing the work/learning the work than reading about it. Basically, they ARE certified before they've "been around the block" so to speak. That doesn't mean that all techs/assistants don't have experience, but those that do are getting it on their own, through volunteering or back-breaking work in a clinic... not because their degree/certification requires it or ensures it.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

halo2013 said:


> Oh really? I've never seen a dog react negatively to vibration. Have seen dogs.lose their minds over the sound collars tho. Guess it just depends on your poets reaction level to the collar in general. My girl is so laid back to everything. And has grown so stubborn its ridiculous.
> 
> But I can see how vibration can be an irritant.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My boy Ammo has a very bad reaction to the vibration feature on his e-collar. I will not use it because of how bad he has reacted. 


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

halo2013 said:


> Yes I know this I am a dog trainer. Who just pissed a whole forum.off because I mentioned the use of it
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I said at least twice I don't think e-collars are bad or you are cruel using them... I just did not agree with using them on a scared dog. I've never used one, I don't trust myself to use it properly but I know in the right situations it is a great training tool.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> My girl is so laid back to everything. And has grown so stubborn its ridiculous.



I don't believe dogs are 'stubborn' If you have a problem in your training, change up what you are doing or step back/start over. Most often when the dog is not doing what is asked, it is because the dog isn't clear on what the handler is asking of it. Engagement and enthusiasm is key in working with dogs....not banging on them! 
Halo, I'm definitely not a 'dog trainer' but after having a dog with issues I know that we learn every single day about behavior and temperament. It never ends....and experience is a good thing to have in our tool box.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

halo2013 said:


> Oh. So does the same apply for *drs. Dr assistants.* Vet techs?
> 
> They go to school so they aren't certified until they've been around the block


ummmm....pretty much. Doctors, PA and NP's typically either have done internships or in the case of NP's, they have many years practical experience. But they most certainly do NOT go to school and then throw out a shingle.

You really need to lose that chip on your shoulder. While there are many people against compulsive methods, there are also many people who use them correctly.

You could have 20 years of experience. Doesn't make a person good at their job. So you can stop throwing that out because that is not impressing anyone. As a person in a professional position, I can attest to the fact that incompetence comes in varying ranges of "experience"

What does make a good trainer is someone who utilities all the tools and techniques. Who has taken the time to apprentice under good trainer and continues to learn. But even that falls short if the TALENT of reading animals is not there.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

You have five years experience and some piece of paper from an online program, and you told multiple people with far, far more experience (and they have pieces of paper too, in the form of titles they've put on their dogs) that they are wrong. "I'm a dog trainer, so therefore I am right" doesn't get too far here.

The general consensus is that using a shock collar on a fearful puppy is probably the worst thing you could do. People who've been around the block a whole lot more times than you have are telling you this. You say you want to learn, so that's a good place to start. 

You say "back the F off" after you're getting rebuffed for telling everyone that they're wrong and you're right "because you're a dog trainer." You gave advice that was asinine and uneducated at best, dangerous at worst. You say you want to learn, and yet all these people with loads of experience don't know as much as you, because you got a certificate. 

I wish Lou would come on and debunk this matter once and for all- if you think you know more than he does.... 


Anyways, is it just me, or is there a self aggrandizing bug on the forum lately?


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## halo2013 (Jan 6, 2014)

I didn't mean stubborn as in she's untrainable mean as in she gets bored easily
And when she's bored her mind wanders. So typical easy training that would work for a typical dog. Bored her awhile ago. 


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

halo2013 said:


> I didn't mean stubborn as in she's untrainable mean as in she gets bored easily
> And when she's bored her mind wanders. So typical easy training that would work for a typical dog. Bored her awhile ago.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


"bored easily" means "lacking a motivator" which is a trainer problem, not behavioral trait ('stubborn').


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

halo2013 said:


> My girl is so laid back to everything. And has grown so stubborn its ridiculous.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


IMO, this shows your inexperience. Laid back and stubborn is probably actually shut down and afraid to try anything for fear of punishment.

Dogs aren't stubborn. They do what is successful to either get what they want, or avoid punishment. If your training is not clear to the dog, and you regularly punish it for things it doesn't understand, you will create a dog that would rather do nothing than risk being punished. This is what is seen as stubbornness. 

David Winners


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

halo2013 said:


> I didn't mean stubborn as in she's untrainable mean as in she gets bored easily
> And when she's bored her mind wanders. So typical easy training that would work for a typical dog. Bored her awhile ago.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


her being bored just means you have no idea what you're doing and you dont know how to motivate her. a motivated dog is excited and focus on the handler. if your dog would rather go sniff grass than pay attention to you then that means you're either really boring or always yelling. if you need to use an ecollar to get a dog to focus on you then you suck really bad. maybe show your dog the certificate you got and she'll focus on you better?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> My girl is so laid back to everything. And has grown so stubborn its ridiculous.


How do you know she is bored? Does she start yawning? Does she look away and lie down?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> How do you know she is bored? Does she start yawning? Does she look away and lie down?


I was thinking the same. Avoidance behaviors.

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

halo2013 said:


> I didn't mean stubborn as in she's untrainable mean as in she gets bored easily
> And when she's bored her mind wanders. So typical easy training that would work for a typical dog. Bored her awhile ago.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


First, I don't know how a person could confuse stubborn and bored. One is refusal to comply with known commands, the other is lack of interest. 

What have you done to challenge her? I read through the site for the school you attended. It's not a school to instruct trainers, but rather an obedience school for dogs. After 28 weeks of training one dog, it should be ready for dog sports, competition OB or service work (according to the site). How many of these activities do you participate in with your dog?

Attending obedience courses does not make you a trainer, nor is it a course in animal behavior. It's OB classes. Please don't pass yourself off as an experienced trainer or behaviorist and work with problem dogs. You are setting yourself up for trouble.

David Winners


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

how do you know how most of America judge a book?



halo2013 said:


> Okay. Apparently everyone is against using e-collars as a training tool. I can understand why. Put an e-collar in the wrong hands and its like handing a loaded weapon to convicted killer.
> 
> But why is everyone so against them? Does one think they are in humane?
> 
> ...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

What is a typical dog and typical easy training? I have a pretty high drive pushy SOB of a dog. Nothing really bores him though he does get creative at pushing the limits sometimes. If I leave him alone unsupervised he will find very amusing things to do to keep busy. Not frantic. 

I have used some of Lou's methods with another dog and it is very different than using the collar as though it were a prong at a distance. That dog would have been washed out from search and rescue otherwise (game chasing, though his crittering method is still very low stim and controlled) . FWIW before I talked with Lou I had done the high stim "shock" and learned that a dog in drive might not even pay much attention to it. Had she been a softer dog the "shock" method may have backfired and either scared her or caused her to redirect in aggression. I got lucky neither happened and she just twitched and kept on chasing her quarry.

Have entertained doing some work with my current dog but know that you can kill some of the independent hunting behaviors I want to preserve with badly timed corrections or create a dog that is too much a velcro dog..and I have seen it happen and have seen even hard dogs shut down...to me this is a precision tool that really requires a good bit of knowledge to properly use...I would not be inclined to use this without someone very experienced in low stim techniques guiding my way. So even though I have a nice Dogtra it is has not been used for about 8 years. Most of what I see people do is hard corrections. I have also seen dogs who were very much like robots after being trained with another popular method. Watching the dog work reminded me of watching someone drive a radio controlled car.

So in the right hands I think it can be a valuable tool, but not necessarily the most forgiving of tools. I would only want to work with someone who had a lot of real world ecollar experience with a wide variety of dogs and who would know which tool for which dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I have also seen dogs who were very much like robots after being trained with another popular method. Watching the dog work reminded me of watching someone drive a radio controlled car.


Which method is this?

David Winners


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

BB?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

SMS, no experience with BB


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

David Winners said:


> IMO, this shows your inexperience. Laid back and stubborn is probably actually shut down and afraid to try anything for fear of punishment.
> 
> Dogs aren't stubborn. They do what is successful to either get what they want, or avoid punishment. If your training is not clear to the dog, and you regularly punish it for things it doesn't understand, you will create a dog that would rather do nothing than risk being punished. This is what is seen as stubbornness.
> 
> David Winners


:thumbup:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> SMS, no experience with BB


I automatically thought of BB's results(He probably doesn't use an ecollor, just the dowel?)...I've used some SMS methods while conditioning my dog to the ecollar. Thankfully he didn't show any robotic behaviors.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are a lot of training taboos out there that became taboos because people didn't know what they were doing. 

For instance. Prong collar use on young puppies. Some would have you believe that if you use them on a dog before the age of 6 months you will crush them forever. It is crap though. It can be done with tact and skill and the end product will be a happy and snappy obedient pup with very little if any toy or food reward. 

Same can be done with e collars. 

People who are dead set against prongs e collars or aversive use in dog training are usually people who have screwed up a dog because they applied it incorrectly, didn't have the stomach to push through the dogs confused phase of learning, or just don't know what they are talking about and are echoing some crap they read somewhere.

That said I prefer to train positive where I can especially through the learning phase but I layer pressure over that at some point and then after that punish disobedience through to proofing. If I have to press the dog I have to press the dog. If you want a dog that has solid reliable obedience under distraction at some point you have to. I don't like doing it. I try to be as tactful as I can about it, but I do do it.

I generally wouldn't give advice on non positive training methods over the internet because of risk of misapplication, misunderstanding, and the fact that aversives are best left up to people with good timing, good background in training theory, and good common sense. Failing that, they need an expert standing over their shoulder coaching them to do it the right way.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

This thread is hilarious.
Ill take the opportunity to give a great DVD set a shout out.
I just got E Collar training with M Ellis volume II. I enjoyed volume one mostly stuff I already knew but in a better format thats easier to apply to a training system. Also some good stuff that I hadnt used before. 
Ill be using lots of this stuff this coming spring to get trial ready .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Agreed! People seem to think dogs are made out of glass..push through the initial fallout and there's a light on the other side.

Ill also add that if a dog cant handle reasonable pressure when she is young without falling apart she wont be eating my food or living under my roof. Just a personal preference. 





Baillif said:


> There are a lot of training taboos out there that became taboos because people didn't know what they were doing.
> 
> For instance. Prong collar use on young puppies. Some would have you believe that if you use them on a dog before the age of 6 months you will crush them forever. It is crap though. It can be done with tact and skill and the end product will be a happy and snappy obedient pup with very little if any toy or food reward.
> 
> ...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> This thread is hilarious.
> Ill take the opportunity to give a great DVD set a shout out.
> I just got E Collar training with M Ellis volume II. I enjoyed volume one mostly stuff I already knew but in a better format thats easier to apply to a training system. Also some good stuff that I hadnt used before.
> Ill be using lots of this stuff this coming spring to get trial ready .


Is volume 2 mostly finishing the dog for trial? It's on my Amazon wish list, just haven't ordered it yet.

David Winners


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

Goodness, I can't help but giggle at this, but also hope that the OP takes the time to settle down and realize there are a lot of really awesome dog handlers here and there is much to be learned from many of them. I certainly don't know it all yet, although I kinda wish I did, I'd be a millionaire then! Even though I may not agree with some of the posters here, I almost always can find some sort of lesson if I pay attention, and if nothing else, I can take away what works for me and ignore the rest.

OP, something that is important to being 'good' at training, especially if you intend to instruct others, is learning to communicate effectively, and I for one, find it somewhat difficult to understand exactly what you are trying to convey in your posts. It also seems as if you are misunderstanding what many others are saying, so perhaps you could work on your communications skills and that might help you enjoy this forum more?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> I automatically thought of BB's results(He probably doesn't use an ecollor, just the dowel?)...I've used some SMS methods while conditioning my dog to the ecollar. Thankfully he didn't show any robotic behaviors.


Kind of why I wondered if I should reply. Franchised training method so you don't even know if what you saw is consistent with the way the program is designed because they are not allowed to "talk about it" or no descriptions about how their approach is intended to work. In any event, the dog was very compliant but I did not see that oomph, that joy, which could also just be the dog. One thing I like about Lou is it is all there on his page but I realize you still do best with an experienced trainer picking up on the nuances of your dog's response/body language and helping guide you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> Kind of why I wondered if I should reply. *Franchised training method so you don't even know if what you saw is consistent with the way the program is designed because they are not allowed to "talk about it" or no descriptions about how their approach is intended to work.* In any event, the dog was very compliant but I did not see that oomph, that joy, which could also just be the dog. One thing I like about Lou is it is all there on his page but I realize you still do best with an experienced trainer picking up on the nuances of your dog's response/body language and helping guide you.


My friend that I trained with used a few of the SMS methods. She learned them from her friend who she trained with all the time that went thru the program. Because of the methods, the dogs they trained on the SMS program* did* lack enthusiasm and 'oomph' like you also observed. 
They've since changed up the way they work the dogs. My friends field retriever lacked enthusiasm and effort when I started training with them. The dog is now happy to train, my friend has been working with Bridget Carlson consistently....what a difference in the dog! Part of that growth was because my friend was strictly compulsion based in her training. When I started training w/ her she saw how we build drive, and cap it. It opened up a new world for her. 

I was never a fan of SMS, and I still am the one that controls my dogs training program. There were things I didn't feel necessary that were suggested, other things were great, and helpful.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Is volume 2 mostly finishing the dog for trial? It's on my Amazon wish list, just haven't ordered it yet.
> 
> David Winners


Just finished it, not really trial oriented. It covers protection and obedience while the helper is on the field. He is very careful about using it in more advanced evolutions. I like MEs vids for starting a dog. However I think if you want to use the Collar in advanced OB and protection Bart Bellon has the best methods. ME doesnt believe the collar should be used to bring speed or improve body positioning as he doesnt believe the dog fully understands the collar in these applications.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Just finished it, not really trial oriented. It covers protection and obedience while the helper is on the field. He is very careful about using it in more advanced evolutions. I like MEs vids for starting a dog. However I think if you want to use the Collar in advanced OB and protection Bart Bellon has the best methods. ME doesnt believe the collar should be used to bring speed or improve body positioning as he doesnt believe the dog fully understands the collar in these applications.


I think Ivan and Bart have both shown that you can increase speed and accuracy with the e-collar. I'm going to order it today. I'm in the field, so I won't get it until I get back in a couple weeks. I'm excited about watching it though. Thanks for the info.

David Winners


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Yes I agree, I also love how Bellon pairs the collar with the sticks. If it was me Id buy Ellis first E Collar Vid and then progress from there with Bellon or Balbanov. I wish BB would do more movies.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Yes I agree, I also love how Bellon pairs the collar with the sticks. If it was me Id buy Ellis first E Collar Vid and then progress from there with Bellon or Balbanov. I wish BB would do more movies.


Me too. It's not like he's doing seminars in Korea LOL. The sticks are cool. My mom used sticks in competition obedience training decades ago to straighten up positions. I have never tried them personally though.

David Winners


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Personally I feel that if you want success in anything that you do, you have to be experienced and educated. Never one or the other. You may start one more with one of those situations, but the other is something required to balance it out. We never know everything and when someone comes along that can do something better than you can with a different method, it may be wise to learn something from that.

I mostly post because of someone saying that experience matters more in the realm of techs and assistants. It helps, but you need to know the WHY not just the HOW. Which I feel applies to dog training too. You can know reasons for or against different tools, but why they work and do not work based upon the dog and the manner in which they are used is not always just an experience thing. We read up methods, go to seminars, etc all for one purpose. TO LEARN. 

I don't have much experience with e-collars (and honestly every time i see it normally I think of plastic lampshades  ) however I am not going to bash someone for using it. I know they have their place. I just hope if anyone is going to use any tool with their pet, they seek help from someone who knows how to use it properly and learn all they can to succeed. 

After all, knowledge is power.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I think Ivan and Bart have both shown that you can increase speed and accuracy with the e-collar. I'm going to order it today. I'm in the field, so I won't get it until I get back in a couple weeks. I'm excited about watching it though. Thanks for the info.
> 
> David Winners


You can get the same thing with a prong a leash and some negative reinforcement. Can have someone stand behind them doing it too provided they know what they are doing. You get the added benefit then of being able to keep the dog from cheating forward if you are doing a sport where you give a crap about that kind of thing. Depending on the angle you give the reinforcement you can send very clear messages to the dog as to what position he is supposed to be in too.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> You can get the same thing with a prong a leash and some negative reinforcement. Can have someone stand behind them doing it too provided they know what they are doing. You get the added benefit then of being able to keep the dog from cheating forward if you are doing a sport where you give a crap about that kind of thing. Depending on the angle you give the reinforcement you can send very clear messages to the dog as to what position he is supposed to be in too.


The stick and e collar works differently.

Say for a heel command. Hold the stick on front of the dog. If he touches it he gets a hit of the e collar. Dog understands to stay behind the stick. So when you turn the stick moves as well and the dog avoids contact with the stick so to avoid the shock from the stick.

This turning can't really be accomplished with another person behind delivering the prong correction.

Or the dog moving into heel position. Again a helper must be running around the dog with the prong lead to actually deliver a correction if the dog isn't getting into correct position. It is not really practical to do it.

It is the beauty of a e collar really. A very versatile tool.


BB is creating a channel for the dog to go into where there is no shock. Outside this channel the dog gets shocked. I can't see how this can be achieved in such a clean way with prong correction and neg reinforcement, although that technique can do a similar job but in a rougher manner.


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