# Which is better: high quality kibble or a "supermarket" raw diet?



## lemonadeicedtea (Aug 8, 2011)

Purely hypothetical question for those who have experience between kibble and raw -

Would the benefits of a high quality kibble (i.e. Orijen, Annamaet, or whatever brands you consider to be the best of the best) still be outweighed by a raw diet of conventionally raised meats (non-organic or grass-fed, etc) of a variety that could be found at your local supermarket (basic chicken/beef/pork)?

I know this is oversimplifying the issue but I'd love for some of you to weigh in.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

When pet food companies say their food is "organic, hormone free, human grade" that is still completely scraps, its not chicken legs and beef ribs etc. I dont shop at whole paycheck so I dont care about buying my dog organic hormone free meats. She gets her stuff from fiesta market and its all under 75 cents a pound for necks, legs, livers, feet, etc. Just to cover my ass on the raw diet I bought some pupsup glanzen supplement, Ill limit it till shes not a puppy.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

That's a really good question. I don't really have an opinion for you, but i will say..that there are some qualities of supermarket meats I will not eat.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My preferences would be in order

Scrap from Quality Antibiotic free, hormone free, grass fed livestock or pasture fed chicken - preferably organic

Kibble made from same

Raw made from supermarket meats (probably irradiated at some stores because they are not required to "tell" us they irradiate and ever since I had the tomato that lasted 3 months on my kitchen counter.....without rotting....just sayin......

Quality kibble from regular meats.


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## lemonadeicedtea (Aug 8, 2011)

GusGus said:


> That's a really good question. I don't really have an opinion for you, but i will say..that there are some qualities of supermarket meats I will not eat.


Haha... I know what you mean. 

To expand on my original question - given that all food choices are a balance between nutritional benefits/convenience/cost, if you wanted to implement a raw diet but it wasn't prudent (time, financially, or otherwise) for you to source a broad variety of proteins or use speciality vendors, would you still be able to reap most of the benefits of BARF? And would that diet be better than premium packaged food?


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

lemonadeicedtea said:


> Haha... I know what you mean.
> 
> To expand on my original question - given that all food choices are a balance between nutritional benefits/convenience/cost, if you wanted to implement a raw diet but it wasn't prudent (time, financially, or otherwise) for you to source a broad variety of proteins or use speciality vendors, would you still be able to reap most of the benefits of BARF? And would that diet be better than premium packaged food?


I think it depends on how unprudent you are. If you were feeding a good variety when it comes to organs, bones, and meat, then I think there are still benefits. However, if you were just tossing the dog chicken legs every night, the no.

I tried transitioning Puppy to raw. I had her on liver, spleen, kidney, eggs, and chicken frames. She didn't do as well as she did on kibble, and I attribute it to a lack of variety and my lack of time, finances, etc.

I feed Orijen now, and I'm really happy with the results. I would rather feed her balanced kibble, than wacky raw. My first choice is always raw though.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

That's a darn good question.... I fed Axel a supermarket (mostly) raw diet his 1st year. He looked great and thrived. I had to go to kibble about a year ago. I honestly don't think he looks as good (coat wise at least). I feed raw a few times a week now, and I notice an improvement in coat and teeth. I don't like the quality of meat you can buy at the store, but I can't pay 10 bux a pound for organic quality either, and I thing raw does them good.. love to see more input on this


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Great question!
This is something I'm having difficulty with at the moment. I don't have affordable access to high quality meats for the dogs right now since meat suppliers have been banned from selling to the public. So I have been just having to give them whatever I can find from the supermarket. And it usually just ends up being chicken wings/legs/backs, pork tongue or beef mince and eggs. It's quite limited. And it's expensive. (I got totally ripped off on chicken wings last week. Eleven euros for only 25 chicken wings is ridiculous.) Feeding raw to your dog in Dublin is next to impossible if you don't wanna go broke.

So for now, they are still on half high quality kibble, with one meal supplemented with whatever raw I have on hand.


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## jourdan (Jul 30, 2012)

I think Avery would still prefer supermarket raw over a high quality kibble. I'm no raw master feeder but I like the results I've seen in Avery with raw so in my mind any meat is better then no meat. 


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't think anyone really knows. A lot of people think they know and they do what they think is best. After all, our best is all any of us can do. Your veterinarian will tell you not to feed raw and there is a lot of reasoning behind that advise. Ask your vet and consider his/her opinion. Dog food manufacturers pack a lot of low quality food sources into their product but they do studies to be sure that their food contains the correct amounts of trace nutrients that are essential to the dogs health. You cannot be sure with a home made diet that the dog is getting everything it needs. If any diet is lacking in some important nutrient, it might take several years for you to find your dog has developed some diet related condition that cannot be corrected.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't think the price point is ever good enough if you're buying your stuff from the store. Unless you're cleaning the place out every time chicken thighs or drumsticks go on sale for 99 cents a pound you're overpaying for the food anyways.

We did the premade raw stuff for a while since we didn't and still don't have the space to buy in bulk and make it at home (in order to decrease the price point). Went back to a high quality kibble (and not a grain free one) and the dog is doing exactly the same.

I don't eat organic food...I shop at farmers markets in the summer for veggies and fruits but the meat is just way too expensive and there are other things I like to waste my money on.

If I had noticed a difference with raw...I'd probably say that store bought would still be better than kibble. And like someone else stated...organic kibble means free range bits and pieces, where as high quality regular kibble actually uses the meat we would eat just from corn fed sources.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

What is the difference between a supermarket or a meat packer/distributor, any way. Many people do feed strictly from packers.
I have a feeling that either source is not always hormone free, grass fed, organic livestock. It is WAY too cheap to be. IE, $2/lb steak? I highly doubt anything but conventional livestock.
I feed both when I run out of the good stuff from MPC, which is the only place that I can get a decent price on organic, grass fed, hormone free meat.

My thoughts is that if it is fit for human consumption, it is fit for your dog. I try to feed my dog organic if it is reasonable, as much as I try to eat organic if it is reasonable.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Juno definitely sheds a lot less when she eats raw. I'd love to feed better quality raw stuff (ie NOT battery hens) but we can hardly afford to feed ourselves anything organic, let alone the dogs. 

I reckon the biggest difference between supermarkets and a meat distributor is simply price. Wholesalers tend to sell mass quanitites for a certain price, and the supermarket sells it on to the customer with their bit added to it to turn a profit.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

martemchik said:


> If I had noticed a difference with raw...I'd probably say that store bought would still be better than kibble. And like someone else stated*...organic kibble* means free range bits and pieces, where as high quality regular kibble actually uses the meat we would eat just from corn fed sources.


Just a note as this caught my attention...

According to AAFCO - to legally label a pet food as organic it *only needs to contain 3% organic ingredients *...3% is not a typo on my part.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The other option is to feed a mix of grocery store meats and natural grass fed meats which is what I do.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

price doesnt = quality, im shopping at the fiesta market, they have hookups to the farms to get these prices. Its not low quality, its probably the freshest meat ive seen. Antibiotics are given to the poult when its like a day old, they arent all jacked up on antibiotics. Like I said I dont even eat hormone/antibiotic free meat. So at 58 cent for legs and 68 for necks I can feed my dog raw. If it was 4 times that it wouldnt make sense to me. i do give some beef at 2.40 a lb and tripe at around 3 a lb but her mainstay is cheap chicken.


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

I feed 75% grocery store meats mostly chicken, and the rest is from my butcher(whatever they have). All of my dogs are doing wonderful I used to feed raw and switched to kibble ive been back on raw now for almost 2 years. The diffrence in the organic raw and supermarket probably would not be noticable. The only way I think you could tell would be bloodwork maybe?


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

she was asking about so called hormone free organic kibble vs grocery raw. I would never eat kibble, but I do eat from grocery stores vs whole paycheck. It seems like a hippy debate to me. The answer is clear that an organic chicken scrap blended up and then sprayed onto a wall and dried into powder and added to kibble is less wholesome than a raw leg from the grocery store.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/ForIndustry/UserFees/AnimalDrugUserFeeActADUFA/UCM338170.pdf

Rep. Slaughter on NARMS: "We Are Standing on the Brink of a Public Health Catastrophe" | Food Safety News

Saw this on Twitter and thought I'd leave it here for Nancy and all.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The public health catastrophe statement supports the argument about NOT giving antibiotics to feed animals. The only reason these animals NEED them is the abysmal growing conditions.

To me part of the decision to avoid hormone free / antibiotic free meats (as well as non GMO foods) is to do what I can to avoid being a part of the overall problem. Personally, I don't have an issue with dogs eating what we consider scrap as long as it is "good" scrap. . 

Once again - to each his own - for an individual dog I really have not seen any significant difference between dogs I fed raw fed on grocery meats (and frames from the poultry plant) and dogs fed with quality kibble. My longest lived dog ate Nutro Max. Go figure.

FWIW-my kids and grandkids were not raised with hormone laden meats and we tried to avoid RGBH mile when possible, and, surprise surprise - skinny little things at age 11 and no menstruation until 12-13. They have had friends who started maturing with breasts and menses at NINE YEARS OLD.


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## lemonadeicedtea (Aug 8, 2011)

marshies said:


> I think it depends on how unprudent you are. If you were feeding a good variety when it comes to organs, bones, and meat, then I think there are still benefits. *However, if you were just tossing the dog chicken legs every night, the no*.
> 
> I tried transitioning Puppy to raw. I had her on liver, spleen, kidney, eggs, and chicken frames. She didn't do as well as she did on kibble, and I attribute it to a lack of variety and my lack of time, finances, etc.
> 
> I feed Orijen now, and I'm really happy with the results. I would rather feed her balanced kibble, than wacky raw. My first choice is always raw though.


Somewhat off-topic, but I've actually met someone who only fed their lab chicken legs thinking that was a wholesome raw diet. The poor thing looked terrible, like he was going to crumble. That was truly wacky raw.




Rua said:


> Great question!
> This is something I'm having difficulty with at the moment. I don't have affordable access to high quality meats for the dogs right now since meat suppliers have been banned from selling to the public. So I have been just having to give them whatever I can find from the supermarket. And it usually just ends up being chicken wings/legs/backs, pork tongue or beef mince and eggs. It's quite limited. And it's expensive. (I got totally ripped off on chicken wings last week. Eleven euros for only 25 chicken wings is ridiculous.) Feeding raw to your dog in Dublin is next to impossible if you don't wanna go broke.
> 
> So for now, they are still on half high quality kibble, with one meal supplemented with whatever raw I have on hand.


That's crazy! Is there a sizable community of raw feeders that you know of in Dublin?


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## lemonadeicedtea (Aug 8, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> The public health catastrophe statement supports the argument about NOT giving antibiotics to feed animals. The only reason these animals NEED them is the abysmal growing conditions.
> 
> To me part of the decision to avoid hormone free / antibiotic free meats (as well as non GMO foods) is to do what I can to avoid being a part of the overall problem. *Personally, I don't have an issue with dogs eating what we consider scrap as long as it is "good" scrap*. .
> 
> ...


Agreed on the scrap - not as appealing to us as humans, but as long as the overall MM/OM/RMB ratio was correct, I'd rather feed high-quality scrap than some of the meats I see at my local chain stores nowadays.

Personally, I'm planning out my 22-month old's transition to raw and even though I have the freezer space to buy in bulk and the frugalness to search for vendors, I'm still finding it quite daunting to feed the balanced diet that I'd like to within all my other parameters. That's in addition to my concern over the product quality (which on some level is more imperative than concern for my own food sources, since meat will be consumed raw and is his complete diet). Thus I question the ease of feeding BARF well if you were limited to the proteins and varieties available at your neighborhood supermarket (for me, that'd be your typical poultry/beef and limited organ meats). But again, I know that's a highly individual thing for each dog.


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## lemonadeicedtea (Aug 8, 2011)

lhczth said:


> The other option is to feed a mix of grocery store meats and natural grass fed meats which is what I do.


That seems like the best solution if an entirely "natural" diet is out of the question. I decided to create another thread if others have insight on this too:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/218610-raw-feeders-do-you-have-any-organic-grass-fed-etc-musts.html


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

We switched from a high quality kibble to a supermarket raw diet, and one of the greatest benefits has been to my senior girl's dental hygiene. She was a rescue I adopted just over a year ago, and her mouth was a mess. Since she's a senior, I really didn't want to put her under for a thorough cleaning.

I just don't think there's any kibble in existence that would have cleaned up that neglected mouth the way RMBs have.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

GatorBytes said:


> According to AAFCO - to legally label a pet food as organic it *only needs to contain 3% organic ingredients *...3% is not a typo on my part.


Do you have a reference for this? I went to the AAFCO website, which states:


> "Pet foods and pet treats must comply with the USDA's National Organic Program (NOP) regulations (7 CFR 205)."


So I went to the USDA's website, and to the NOP page. Here you can get information about the USDA Organic Seal. And specifically, a fact sheet which states that at a minimum "organic" content which is the "made with" category, it has to have at least 70% organic content:


> "Multi-ingredient agricultural products in the 'made with' category must meet these criteria:
> -- At least 70 percent of the product must be certified organic ingredients (excluding salt and water)."
> -- May state “made with organic (insert up to three ingredients or ingredient categories).” Must not include USDA organic seal anywhere, represent finished product as organic, or state “made with organic ingredients.”


It goes on to say products below 70% organic contents:


> Multi-ingredient products with less than 70 percent certified organic content (excluding salt and water) don’t need to be certified. Any non-certified product:
> -- Must not include USDA organic seal anywhere or the word “organic” on principal display panel.
> --May only list certified organic ingredients as organic in the ingredient list and the percentage of organic ingredients. Remaining ingredients are not required to follow the USDA organic regulations.


I can't find any reference to 3%.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Pet Fooled July 2012 www.indiegogo.com/petfooled - YouTube

Short vid...pause at 33 secs...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I dunno. I'm certainly no lawyer, and I've not studied this law code. The entire code can be read here (unfortunately, not all at once, so it's not easy to search for "3%") http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/7/205

It's interesting to note that all references to percentage that I came across spell out "percent" rather than use "%". I don't doubt there's some loopholes in there, but I do doubt every single point that a documentary tries to make on a topic. As much as I love documentaries, they often skew data to make their point just like anything else...

[EDIT]- I did, of course, see this on the AAFCO website:
-*AAFCO does not regulate, test, approve or certify pet foods in any way.
-**AAFCO has no statutory authority to regulate pet products.

*So whatever the AAFCO code says, it might not be relevant anyway. Not sure how all that works.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Sorry it is state feed control, not AAFCO which seems contradictory


*AAFCO has no statutory authority to regulate pet products.*


*AAFCO does not regulate, test, approve or certify pet foods in any way.

*AAFCO establishes the nutritional standards for complete and balanced pet foods, and _*it is the pet food company's responsibility*_ to formulate their products according to the appropriate AAFCO standard.

_*It is the state feed control official's responsibility*_ in regulating pet food to ensure that the laws and rules established for the protection of companion animals and their custodians are complied with so that only unadulterated, correctly and uniformly labeled pet food products are distributed in the marketplace and a structure for orderly commerce.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Multi-ingredient products with _less than 70 percent certified organic content_ (excluding salt and water) don’t need to be certified. Any non-certified product:
-- _Must not include USDA organic seal anywhere or the word “organic” on principal display panel._
--May only list certified organic ingredients as organic in the ingredient list and the percentage of organic ingredients. Remaining ingredients are not required to follow the USDA organic regulations.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

If they could make a kibble that was 100% carb, veggie and other non-protein items free - I would buy that in an instant!!

Since they don't - I buy the items and do it myself.


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