# Please take a look at my pictures and tell me your opinion



## julie87

Arexa is now almost 7 months old and I am really beginning to panic, seems like her ears are getting worse instead of better  her most current photo shows like ears almost gave up. On picture where she is 5 moths old her ears would be like that every time in the car while driving, now not even that. Sometimes she will pick them up and they will be criss-cross, but mostly floppy. I have tryed taping 2 weeks ago for a few days it helped a little but as soon as the tape came off so did her ears  I have tried tender mender glue for a few days got worse results than after tape. Today I put some breath strips in her ears with tender mender glue, I just don't know what to do anymore I hope I am just worried for nothing, she is my first GSD and I don't have much experience. It very important that her ears are up! Please tell me what I should do I am thinking of taking her to a professional to tape ears...


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## julie87




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## julie87




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## julie87




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## julie87




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## julie87

I give her cottage cheese for extra calcium, she has lots of chew toys/bones and she is almost done teething.


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## fuzzybunny

I'm no expert in this but I would think you'd need to keep them glued for longer than a few days. Any thread I've read about gluing/taping, I believe it was a few weeks.


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## carmspack

why does the dog have a shaved area on his right forearm?
whatever is going on may be a stress response .
also what are you feeding ? thought I saw red yellow and green kibble (if so that can't be good) -- and the dog does not appear to have any muscle , seems to look like he is missing energy and animation , a little less as each month goes by .

let's see if nutrition will help.


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## vicky2200

Personally, I would leave the ears alone and let them do whatever they want to do. If your dog is healthy, I wouldn't be concerned about the ears.


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## vickip9

Try giving the puppy bones and things to chew on. Chewing will help build up the muscles/tendons that support the ears. You can also try taping/glueing at the same time, but for longer.


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## julie87

carmspack said:


> why does the dog have a shaved area on his right forearm?
> whatever is going on may be a stress response .
> also what are you feeding ? thought I saw red yellow and green kibble (if so that can't be good) -- and the dog does not appear to have any muscle , seems to look like he is missing energy and animation , a little less as each month goes by .
> 
> let's see if nutrition will help.


The arm is shaved because she had spay surgery. I feed her Royal Canine/raw. That different color kibble you see is some natural food by Rachel Ray I bought when there was no big bags of her regular food at Pets Mart either way what does color have to do with it? Which picture are you referring to where the dog doesn't have muscle lol? I was actually thinking she might be just a little overweight. She has crazy energy very shiny coat and she is healthy everyone always asks what I feed her. And stress response? The dog is super happy and our home is any dog's dream, I don't work so she is with me all the time, going on trips, that dog is never alone she is the queen of the house the only stress she has is when the cat steals her food 


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## julie87

fuzzybunny said:


> I'm no expert in this but I would think you'd need to keep them glued for longer than a few days. Any thread I've read about gluing/taping, I believe it was a few weeks.


It was on way longer than a few days it was a few weeks. First week gluing second week taping with barely any results now will see what breathe strips will do 


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## Freestep

Usually, if the ears go up once, they'll go up again. Looks like they were up a couple months ago, so I wouldn't worry too much, but it's unusual for them to come up at 5 months and go down again at 7.

A pup's ears will flop when the pup is tired, or simply very relaxed. But stress could cause it also, I might hazard a guess that her spay surgery was very recent and she is still recovering. Even though a dog might not show signs of stress, anesthesia and surgery is always a big deal to a dog's system, so while her body is busy healing, it may not be putting much effort into making her ears stand.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that leaving the ears alone is the best thing you can do. I had a pup whose ears wouldn't stand, and I tried taping them (back then we used foam hair curlers) but I think I just made it worse. The ears never did stand.


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## Gilly1331

Generally if her ears are doing all the funny flip flop stages and were up at one point or another they will be up by 1 yr al the time. Some dogs go up fast,quick and stay up while others take a while. Just love your dog having her ears up or down wont change how much she loves you.


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## carmspack

I like Rachel Ray, like her recipes, like her cooking show , but dog food ? . Opening "working with a team of pet food experts" most likely means she was approached for permission to use her marketable image , celebrity "food" status to help market an average kibble . I don't see it as any great shakes
Chicken, Chicken Meal, Ground Rice, Corn Meal, Soybean Meal, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Corn Gluten Meal, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Natural Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Dehydrated Alfalfa, Dried Peas, Dried Carrots, Dried Tomatoes, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Olive Oil, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Oxide, Dried Parsley, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Mixed Tocopherols, Niacin, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Folic Acid. "

Actually lots and lots of grains. I asked about the colours in the kibble because there are a lot of low ranked kibbles with coloured bits and pieces. 
Royal Canin also ranks low . 
That the arm is shaved because of a spay surgery has lots of meaning , because the dogs ears were better set in the before pictures. THIS is her stress response. She is a young dog in a growth phase . Surgery , recovery, even the anaesthetic is a physical stress. The anaesthethic will slow down digestion and takes a while to totally clear out of the system , which the liver plays an active part in doing. I wasn't suggesting the home wasn't caring and loving . I don't see her as being over weight at all , but I don't see her muscled either . 
There are many ways to help cartilage and ligament through diet .


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## Jag

fuzzybunny said:


> I'm no expert in this but I would think you'd need to keep them glued for longer than a few days. Any thread I've read about gluing/taping, I believe it was a few weeks.


It took my bitch 2 weeks or so of gluing to get them to stay up, so you're right. I had to re-glue and add a cone when she scratched and separated them.


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## carmspack

thought these comments on the different kibbles was interesting What we DONT carry, and why


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## julie87

Freestep said:


> Usually, if the ears go up once, they'll go up again. Looks like they were up a couple months ago, so I wouldn't worry too much, but it's unusual for them to come up at 5 months and go down again at 7.
> 
> A pup's ears will flop when the pup is tired, or simply very relaxed. But stress could cause it also, I might hazard a guess that her spay surgery was very recent and she is still recovering. Even though a dog might not show signs of stress, anesthesia and surgery is always a big deal to a dog's system, so while her body is busy healing, it may not be putting much effort into making her ears stand.
> 
> Personally, I'm of the opinion that leaving the ears alone is the best thing you can do. I had a pup whose ears wouldn't stand, and I tried taping them (back then we used foam hair curlers) but I think I just made it worse. The ears never did stand.


Thank you you saying that if they were up before they will come back up again. Her ears started coming up at 3 months. Her spay was a month ago and her ears were criss-cross after that, and only a week ago it started being floppy but if she is outside they go cross cross again. Yesterday I put some breathe strips and tender mender here is a pic









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## x11

it is not important for ears to come up at all unless you want a show dog but showing dogs is not important either so it's not a problem. 

you dog will still hear the same as any other dog so it's just looks. 

do you like yr dog or just like a certain look?

nice looking pup - some other posters mentioned some other things you might want to consider, forget the ears unless you are hung up on appearance.

my dog had flying nun's ears until 12mo. they went up and down several times - i could not care less how they would have ended up.


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## julie87

carmspack said:


> I like Rachel Ray, like her recipes, like her cooking show , but dog food ? . Opening "working with a team of pet food experts" most likely means she was approached for permission to use her marketable image , celebrity "food" status to help market an average kibble . I don't see it as any great shakes
> Chicken, Chicken Meal, Ground Rice, Corn Meal, Soybean Meal, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Corn Gluten Meal, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Natural Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Dehydrated Alfalfa, Dried Peas, Dried Carrots, Dried Tomatoes, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Olive Oil, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Oxide, Dried Parsley, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Mixed Tocopherols, Niacin, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Folic Acid. "
> 
> Actually lots and lots of grains. I asked about the colours in the kibble because there are a lot of low ranked kibbles with coloured bits and pieces.
> Royal Canin also ranks low .
> That the arm is shaved because of a spay surgery has lots of meaning , because the dogs ears were better set in the before pictures. THIS is her stress response. She is a young dog in a growth phase . Surgery , recovery, even the anaesthetic is a physical stress. The anaesthethic will slow down digestion and takes a while to totally clear out of the system , which the liver plays an active part in doing. I wasn't suggesting the home wasn't caring and loving . I don't see her as being over weight at all , but I don't see her muscled either .
> There are many ways to help cartilage and ligament through diet .


Like I previously mentioned I bought a small bag until petsmart gets Royal Canine back in stock. She is on half kibble and half raw, also I asked about ears not diet advise. I don't find your comments helpful at all seems like you are suggesting my dog is malnourished unhappy and has poor diet. Like I said she gets cottage cheese for extra calcium and plenty of chews and bones. If anyone else thinks my dog is underweight please say so because like I said She is my first GSD and I am trying to do whats best for her.


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## julie87

x11 said:


> it is not important for ears to come up at all unless you want a show dog but showing dogs is not important either so it's not a problem.
> 
> you dog will still hear the same as any other dog so it's just looks.
> 
> do you like yr dog or just like a certain look?
> 
> nice looking pup - some other posters mentioned some other things you might want to consider, forget the ears unless you are hung up on appearance.
> 
> my dog had flying nun's ears until 12mo. they went up and down several times - i could not care less how they would have ended up.


I love those perky GSD ears, and it is important to have her ears stand up it helps avoid ear infections and it makes their hearing better. IMO GSD must have perky ears they look absolutely stunning  but obviously her health is #1 priority I love my gorgeous girl just those floppy ears ruining her look. I do love floppy ears while they are small puppies though 


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## Freestep

julie87 said:


> I asked about ears not diet advise. I don't find your comments helpful at all seems like you are suggesting my dog is malnourished unhappy and has poor diet. Like I said she gets cottage cheese for extra calcium and plenty of chews and bones. If anyone else thinks my dog is underweight please say so because like I said She is my first GSD and I am trying to do whats best for her.


Read what Carmen wrote again. There is no way she is implying your dog is "malnourished unhappy and has a poor diet". 

Diet can have a lot to do with ears, but I don't think she is lacking in calcium or anything else. The fact is, your pup is healing from surgery and she is growing fast, so the demands on her body are heavy at the moment. Pointy ears are the least important thing from the body's perspective, but they will almost certainly stand again when her body comes into equilibrium. I wouldn't mess with her ears at this point. They will stand when they're good and ready.


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## m1953

Julie87


You are absolutely right, erect ears are the breed standard and flopped ears is a major fault.. Flopped ear shepherds can be more prone to ear infections.. I have researched this subject to death cause Nala is now eight months old has not had her ears stand on their own without ear forms or taping. . 
Your pup looks like she has very good ear bases and also the fact they stood before, it really looks like they will stand again. 
She is a great looking pup..


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## Whiteshepherds

m1953 said:


> Your pup looks like she has very good ear bases and also the fact they stood before, it really looks like they will stand again.


I was thinking the same thing. Give her some time.


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## carmspack

calcium has nothing to do with ear cartilage or ligament .


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## julie87

Freestep said:


> Read what Carmen wrote again. There is no way she is implying your dog is "malnourished unhappy and has a poor diet".
> 
> Diet can have a lot to do with ears, but I don't think she is lacking in calcium or anything else. The fact is, your pup is healing from surgery and she is growing fast, so the demands on her body are heavy at the moment. Pointy ears are the least important thing from the body's perspective, but they will almost certainly stand again when her body comes into equilibrium. I wouldn't mess with her ears at this point. They will stand when they're good and ready.


He or she was implying that in her other posts you must have missed,made me look like I'm a bad owner for no reason, anyway doesn't matter what I noticed is people on this forum don't post profile pictures on purpose to be able to make rude comments I know that diet is a huge deal in dogs health and I don't need a lecture about it I just wanted to get some opinions based on my dog's pictures. 


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## julie87

Whiteshepherds said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Give her some time.


Thank you guys I'm glad you guys understand the importance of perky ears  I will post more pictures later to see if there is progress 


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## julie87

m1953 said:


> Julie87
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right, erect ears are the breed standard and flopped ears is a major fault.. Flopped ear shepherds can be more prone to ear infections.. I have researched this subject to death cause Nala is now eight months old has not had her ears stand on their own without ear forms or taping. .
> Your pup looks like she has very good ear bases and also the fact they stood before, it really looks like they will stand again.
> She is a great looking pup..


Did her ears ever stood before? What r ur plans if taping fails?


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## PatchonGSD

julie87 said:


> He or she was implying that in her other posts you must have missed,made me look like I'm a bad owner for no reason, anyway doesn't matter what I noticed is people on this forum don't post profile pictures on purpose to be able to make rude comments I know that diet is a huge deal in dogs health and I don't need a lecture about it I just wanted to get some opinions based on my dog's pictures.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Carmen wasnt trying to make you look like a bad owner. Nutrition is very important for proper development. She was just trying to give you helpful information. Carmen doesnt *not* have a profile picture so she can make rude comments. She is a well known and well respected breeder. Everyone knows who she is. If there was one person I would listen to about diet and nutrition-it would be Carmen. 

I agree with the others though, let her ears be.


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## julie87

PatchonGSD said:


> Carmen wasnt trying to make you look like a bad owner. Nutrition is very important for proper development. She was just trying to give you helpful information. Carmen doesnt *not* have a profile picture so she can make rude comments. She is a well known and well respected breeder. Everyone knows who she is. If there was one person I would listen to about diet and nutrition-it would be Carmen.
> 
> I agree with the others though, let her ears be.


I don't want to let her ears just do their thing, why? Because she is going to be 7 months old on 11/26 what should I wait for? It doesn't hurt her to have her ears taped/glued. Im afraid if I wait they won't ever be up again and then she will be floppy GSD all her life, my goal was to find out from other members here based on my pictures to see if her ears are they way they are now if they will ever be up on their own.

And Carmen started saying that her paw is shaved does that mean I torchure my dog? And dog doesn't have ANY muscle? Seriously Carmen you are a breeder and you say she has NO muscle? Did she not see my pictures what is her definition of "musculant" dog....I really don't want to make this into a drama thread so lets just leave it at that. I dont mean to be rude to anyone and please lets just move on. Carmen, thank you for your concern about nutrition I understand that it is very important because it affects her whole health and her life span not just her ears.


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## Jag

If you haven't used tear mender, then try that with a cone so the dog can't separate them. Leave on for about 2 weeks. During that time, use bully bones to get some chewing action going on. I didn't give up on my bitch, either. Sure, if all fails and you have a floppy eared shepherd, then that's what you have. However, I agree with you that there's no reason not to try. My female was really at the 'window closing' point before I got hers up. Hers had never been up, either. She was a heavy dog with thick ears, though. I think you have a better chance.

Carmen- I feed Innova right now because of the low protein. My understanding was that not only does the CA and Phos. need to be watched, but also super high protein. The protein in regular meat (like you and I would eat) isn't as high as the protein content in say Orijen. If I could get this answered, I'd consider switching to Orijen. My concerns are that Grim seems thin and short. Although I know his growth should come slowly for his joints... he's a high energy dog. I can get him to scarf his canned food or cooked meats, but the kibble he doesn't seem to have the attention span for. I've started feeding him kibble in his kennel to minimize distractions. If you can explain to me how that high of protein is helpful and non-harmful, I may switch him over. The stuff listed on your link about Innova isn't a good enough reason for me to change, and has nothing to do with why I'm even considering it. I am concerned with the risk of Pano from a high protein food, though. I'd appreciate your input on this. Thanks!


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## Freestep

julie87 said:


> I don't want to let her ears just do their thing, why? Because she is going to be 7 months old on 11/26 what should I wait for? It doesn't hurt her to have her ears taped/glued. Im afraid if I wait they won't ever be up again and then she will be floppy GSD all her life,


It's possible that taping/gluing can actually make things worse, it happened to me. My pup's ears weren't standing as quickly as I wanted, so I glued foam curlers in there, for about a month or so. I think if I had just left them alone, they might have come up on their own. Even my veterinarian cautioned me against gluing them, but I tried it anyway, and I think that it made them fall down even more. 

Like I said a couple of times, if her ears stood once, they will again. Just be patient.



> And Carmen started saying that her paw is shaved does that mean I torchure my dog? And dog doesn't have ANY muscle?


Where in the world did you get the idea of "torchure[sic]"? Carmen asked about the shaved leg because it usually means that the dog has had anesthesia and surgery recently, and that she is still recovering. Stress, including surgical stress can affect ears, but it is only temporary. 

And Carmen didn't say your dog has NO muscle, she is saying the dog could have more muscle, meaning she may need more exercise to help build it up. Some GSDs go through a phase where they look lanky and skinny around this age. Don't take it personally! It was meant as an observation, to help pinpoint the reason why her ears fell after they'd already been standing.

If you've noticed, almost no one posts their photo in their avatar, because this is a GSD forum, not a singles forum. It has nothing to do with being rude or anything like that. Carmen's been around a long time, she is very wise and well-respected, so do yourself a favor and try to take her comments in the manner they were intended--as trying to be helpful and to pinpoint the cause of her ears falling back down. There are some legitimately rude people who post here and Carmen isn't one of them.

The comment about food being a different color was made because there are a lot of inferior kibbles out there that use dyes to make the kibble look more appealing--to HUMANS, not dogs. Just trying to make sure you're not feeding Beneful or Kibbles N' Bits or something like that. Some folks don't realize that just because the dog food has appealing looking packaging and clever commercials doesn't mean it's a good food. 

I don't think her ears are diet related, though. Her body is busy healing and growing, and perky ears are not at the top of her body's priority list at the moment.

Be patient, her ears will come up, and probably will just as soon as you decide it doesn't matter whether they stand or not.


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## julie87

I guess I over reacted, I am the one under stress lol


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## m1953

Julie 87
Her ears, mainly the right has only stood on a few occasions. I am really not sure what I will do if the taping fails. Since tape is not bothering her, and she is eight months old, I will keep taping until she is a year..if they don't stand she is still my dog and best friend and always will be even if I am disappointed that she doesn't have the GSD standards I paid the breeder for.


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## carmspack

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Freestep*  
_Read what Carmen wrote again. There is no way she is implying your dog is "malnourished unhappy and has a poor diet". 

Diet can have a lot to do with ears, but I don't think she is lacking in calcium or anything else. The fact is, your pup is healing from surgery and she is growing fast, so the demands on her body are heavy at the moment. Pointy ears are the least important thing from the body's perspective, but they will almost certainly stand again when her body comes into equilibrium. I wouldn't mess with her ears at this point. They will stand when they're good and ready. _

He or she was implying that in her other posts you must have missed,made me look like I'm a bad owner for no reason, anyway doesn't matter what I noticed is people on this forum don't post profile pictures on purpose to be able to make rude comments I know that diet is a huge deal in dogs health and I don't need a lecture about it I just wanted to get some opinions based on my dog's pictures. 

Okey Dokey. What ever are you talking about . I am SHE, 
I don't have a profile picture because 1) I don't know how to do it 2) I don't have a single favourite dog - feel the world about many of them - all having a special place, Asta, Chella, Tetley, Kilo, Simon, Bambi, Sumo -- but I constantly post links or pictures of my dogs and parse their pedigrees .
You got opinions on the pictures you presented. The dog looked like some of the energy seen in the first picture was dissapating. There was a point at which the ears which had been up, fell. So what is the reason . Look for clues in the pictures. 
you say "And Carmen started saying that her paw is shaved does that mean I torchure my dog" seriously???

I NOTICED that her arm had a shave mark which indicates some medical/veterinary intervention either an illness and need for IV or as you said a spay operation. Look. The dog is what , 7 months . She has had a bushel full of things to contend with - removal from litter , new home, I don't know your vaccination protocol but taking a stab at it , I would guess that she has had the full complement as per vet prescribed schedule and rabies -- and that is a lot , and growth period , and then the spay -- and not so good food - because I would not rate Royal Canin highly , (dog food ratings report -- Royal Canin Medium Dog Food | Review and Rating Ingredients: Chicken meal, *brown rice*, *rice*, oat, chicken fat, *corn gluten meal*, natural chicken flavor, *dried beet pulp*, anchovy oil (source of EPA/DHA), *dried brewers yeast*, *soya oil*, potassium chloride, salt, calcium carbonate, *dried brewers yeast extract* (source of mannan-oligosaccharides), dried egg product, choline chloride, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), biotin, D-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, niacin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), riboflavin (vitamin B2), folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], trace minerals [zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite], L-carnitine, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols (source of Vitamin E) and citric acid, rosemary extract ) .
Muscle is built from protein. Ears are made of cartilage and collagen is an important / essential component , and collagen is a form of protein (forming cables) . Because the dog is growing, building , and is repairing from surgery a greater good quality protein is required. There are foods which assist the formation and integrity of collagen and ligaments. A "old-wives" remedy is to provide gelatin , as in Knox gelatin -- made from bones/connective tissue , skin. There are plant sources very rich in silica which benefit ligament, cartilage, connective tissue , / arteries, skin, hair, and bone . One plant source is vegetal-silica (horsetail/shavegrass) . Others would be barley grass , wheat grass , oatgrass, stinging nettle, dandelion leaf (and root) . Or there is always Silicea, or Biosil .
Vitamin C !! is essential for the development and maintenance of cartilage. British sailors soon found out to bring along cabbage and fruit to fight scurvy which was a degeneration of cartilage due to vitamin C deficiency. They were named "limeys" because of the reliance on C rich fruit . 
For additonal protein add a heaping spoon of greek yogurt on to the food .


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## carmspack

Jag -- I feed raw diet, have been doing so for almost 30 years. I don't see rapid growth spurts and have been lucky to only have the maybe 3 cases with pano, one litter two brothers both with pano to knock them flat and out of commission. Because there is a genetic proponent to pano, their sire and the two young males , as great as they were in other regards , were removed from my breeding program. When feeding raw , or the meat we would eat from the butcher has moisture content which changes the protein ratio . Kibble does not have that .
Dogs that go out to homes where raw feeding is not chosen are fed Orijen , and no problems reported. 
Since pano is an inflammatory process I would make sure the dog got a good source of omega 3's, and whole-food rich in antioxidants and Vitamin C .


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## carmspack

Jag - found this for you "Canine Orthopedics by Robert Brooks, DVM, M.S. He defines pano as a spontaneous, self-limiting inflammatory disease of the long bones that commonly appears in young, fast-growing dogs. Prognosis is excellent, but lameness may shift to other limbs and be intermittent for several months. He lists contributory causes: transient vascular abnormalities, allergies, metabolic disorders, stress, autoimmune reactions following viral or bacterial infections, first estrus in females, and it has been associated with von Willebrand's disease. "
Just the things that a strong immune system would resist . A strong immune system is helped along by good bioavailable sources of clean protein (hormone/anti biotic free) and by anti oxidants , anti inflammatories, omega 3 , and a good digestive system.

And this "Ok several mentioned that perhaps a too high protein diet may contribute to Pano, which Kai now has. Kai has been on Orijen LBP which is 42% protein and 16% fat. I know that there is still controversy on whether high protein contributes to the Pano so I am unsure if I should continue Kai on the Orijen LBP. Some studies indicate Calcium and Phosphorous levels are more of a contributing factor in rapid growth. When we started Kai on Orijen we too were cautious about the high protein so we emailed the company and got this response.
_*We believe the concern for large breed puppies isn't protein; it is the common byproduct of high protein diets which is ash and calcium and phosphorous. With dry dog foods, higher protein is generated through greater inclusions of meat meals and the meals are high in ash, which is a rich source of calcium and phosphorous. While science doesn't prove one way or the other, there is much debate over whether elevated calcium and phosphorous cause developmental problems in large breeds, by affecting the rate of development of the skeleton. Orijen uses special 'low ash' chicken ingredients to produce higher protein with moderate ash generating calcium and phosphorous levels that are suitable for large breed puppies. While there also used to be concern over higher protein levels affecting the growth of large breed puppies, this has really been debunked in recent years, although pet food producers with low protein foods will still argue the point. *_
_*Kind Regards from Canada,*_
_*Peter*_
_*Champion Foods*_


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## marshies

I want to make a comment regarding "taping can't damage her". In my limited experience, I want to say it CAN.

My puppy went through a phase where her ears went crazy. It was because I didn't notice her crate was too small for non-travel purposes, I think...not scientific, just a hunch. It was important for ME how her ears looked, like it is important for you, for various reasons. My breeder sent foam supports to be used with surgical glue on her. It worked really really well, and to be extra sure, I wanted to keep it in longer. One day, I posted a picture, and my breeder QUICKLY told me to take out her forms because they were dragging her ears down the way they were applied. Her ears did stand, because they stood on their own before. In addition to forms, I also fed the gelatin, gave TONS of chews from fresh bones to bully sticks, and fed a HIGH quality diet (Orijen LBP). My pup also had tons of exercise and walks in busy places so she was listening and alert. I share this not because I think you're a bad owner or whatever, I think your dog is lucky to have you home a lot. I share because this is what worked for me, and hopefully it'll help you.

Carmen is a tremendous help to all forum members, and her advice should be considered.


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## qbchottu

7 months and both are still down? I think there is little chance now they will be completely up and normal. You can try taping or using inserts. Try giving raw chicken drumsticks or backs. Raw knuckle bones. Try bully sticks also. Hope for the best!


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## marshies

I also want to say, when you tape, make sure you do both, and do them snugly enough so she won't feel anything dangle and have an urge to scratch.


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## julie87

marshies said:


> I want to make a comment regarding "taping can't damage her". In my limited experience, I want to say it CAN.
> 
> My puppy went through a phase where her ears went crazy. It was because I didn't notice her crate was too small for non-travel purposes, I think...not scientific, just a hunch. It was important for ME how her ears looked, like it is important for you, for various reasons. My breeder sent foam supports to be used with surgical glue on her. It worked really really well, and to be extra sure, I wanted to keep it in longer. One day, I posted a picture, and my breeder QUICKLY told me to take out her forms because they were dragging her ears down the way they were applied. Her ears did stand, because they stood on their own before. In addition to forms, I also fed the gelatin, gave TONS of chews from fresh bones to bully sticks, and fed a HIGH quality diet (Orijen LBP). My pup also had tons of exercise and walks in busy places so she was listening and alert. I share this not because I think you're a bad owner or whatever, I think your dog is lucky to have you home a lot. I share because this is what worked for me, and hopefully it'll help you.
> 
> Carmen is a tremendous help to all forum members, and her advice should be considered.


 
I taped her ears before but later on the foarm insert (for hair) started coming out of her ears like all the way on the top, so I took it off gave her 2 day break and then glued them using breathe strips and tender mender, so far its been 2 days her ears are standing and they are extra perky while on a walk. I will look into Orijen as soon as she is finished with her current bag. As far as bully sticks... well one time I went to the store in search of new chew for my girl I got her the bully stick, not realizing what it was I was excited to give it to her...after 2 hours passes my hubby says' you gave her bully stick do you even know what it is?" I was like "no" and he told me its dry bull penus. I didn't believe him so i did a google search, after I saw the results I RAN to get the that stick out of her mouth,NOPE sorry I will not give that to my dog and then kiss her face. I was very disturbed that day lol


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## julie87

OH and another thing I forgot to add, I have noticed that ever since i glued her ears she wants to chew A LOT more... I don't know if it has anything to do with her ears being glued but I was just in shock how much she wanted to chew. Also gluing is so much better than taping it is a million times easier to apply and it doesn't bother my girl, she only tried to scratch it once right when i put it on her.


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## hoplite6

qbchottu said:


> 7 months and both are still down? I think there is little chance now they will be completely up and normal. You can try taping or using inserts. Try giving raw chicken drumsticks or backs. Raw knuckle bones. Try bully sticks also. Hope for the best!


Baron had a floppy right ear at just under five months and I took qbchottu's advise and handed him his first bully stick. Ear went up the next day and has stayed there. Hope things work out.


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## marshies

julie87 said:


> I taped her ears before but later on the foarm insert (for hair) started coming out of her ears like all the way on the top, so I took it off gave her 2 day break and then glued them using breathe strips and tender mender, so far its been 2 days her ears are standing and they are extra perky while on a walk. I will look into Orijen as soon as she is finished with her current bag. As far as bully sticks... well one time I went to the store in search of new chew for my girl I got her the bully stick, not realizing what it was I was excited to give it to her...after 2 hours passes my hubby says' you gave her bully stick do you even know what it is?" I was like "no" and he told me its dry bull penus. I didn't believe him so i did a google search, after I saw the results I RAN to get the that stick out of her mouth,NOPE sorry I will not give that to my dog and then kiss her face. I was very disturbed that day lol


I didn't use hair rollers, but the foam is similar. Mine were cut out to fit the exact shape of the inside of her ears so there wasn't any extra weight. I used surgical cement. I also took it off as soon as the sides were coming loose since then parts of the ear may be dragged down by the foam and glue.

I also gave fresh knuckle bones, deer antlers, and frozen carrots I think.


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## carmspack

the bully sticks are effective not because of the chewing action, because most dogs can practically inhale them, but because they are a source of collagen and chondroitin . You must be careful when buying this and make very sure that it is not a product from China as so many "treats" are . Buy only natural , no colour, no preservative, no flavouring , no "smoke" , plain dehydrated . Trachea will provide the same benefits. -- same chemistry as gelatin .
I have a raw pet boutique two roads over that buys boxes full of fresh raw pizzles and then dehydrates them . I can buy them fresh and floppy or dried . She also buys
boxes of trachea with the organs still on . If you are close to an Asian or West Indian grocer you can buy cow skin -- an excellent source of collagen . Or cow's feet which you can boil and have all that gelatin release. Or get yourself chicken carcass with the keel on and either give them these or make a bone broth , essentially making your own gelatin. Cow lips are good .
At this point you could go into a study of bone development. A fetus' skeleton is basically collagen , ossification takes time . This is why hip x rays show differently as the dog ages because the growth plates are cartilage , which can be damaged ! and will show as a gap on the x ray . Bone is ever changing, living , dynamic , responding to nutrition and physcial stresses - weight physical activity . Very interesting research being done in this area to prepare human-kind for living outside of the Earth's gravity on space stations where there is no gravity. Bone will lose its ossification . 

So collagen is beneficial to bones , being the material which creates the scaffold for ossification .
Your dogs ears were up so the genetics are there . They fell because the dog had high demands but on his body . By mucking around with the ears you could create a problem by damaging the tissue. Feed well , and wait.


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## Freestep

julie87 said:


> ...after 2 hours passes my hubby says' you gave her bully stick do you even know what it is?" I was like "no" and he told me its dry bull penus. I didn't believe him so i did a google search, after I saw the results I RAN to get the that stick out of her mouth,NOPE sorry I will not give that to my dog and then kiss her face. I was very disturbed that day lol




So, is it more important for her ears to stand, or is it more important to protect yourself from the deadly "bull penus[sic]"? 



Not that it matters, her ears will stand regardless.


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## julie87

Yes I think them will she has plenty of things to chew one of her favorites is stuffed femur bones and stuffed raw hides she is busy for hours lol


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## carmspack

" stuffed raw hides she is busy for hours lol"

I would never give raw hide . Know too many incidents where dogs have run into serious, meaning fataly serious problems . Not only do many of them have preservatives which "embalm" them , or come from off-shore with who knows what else , but they come off in chunks and absorb moisture in the gut . There they begin to swell like a sponge taking up water . Indigestible , they saponify , get soapy-slimy. They act as a dam preventing food from going through the digestive system. Put pressure on tissue. They spoil in the gut creating bacterial havoc , tissue dies , necrotizes and then you have emergency surgery . 
One of my high levels competition dogs spoiled by his loving owner was on the operating table and when it was evident how much damage had been done and how much of the intestine was dead , necrotic tissue, the owner and vet humanely kept him under the anaesthetic and helped him pass on to his next journey . 
When the vet phoned the supplier / importer of these raw hide products they were lightning fast to respond with cash , compensation - without questions at all - so not unfamiliar with the problem .


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## Freestep

Yeah, seriously, ditch the rawhide and stick with real bones.


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## msvette2u

We never use rawhides here. Sometimes we get donations and they are in them, we just throw them away.


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## julie87

carmspack said:


> " stuffed raw hides she is busy for hours lol"
> 
> I would never give raw hide . Know too many incidents where dogs have run into serious, meaning fataly serious problems . Not only do many of them have preservatives which "embalm" them , or come from off-shore with who knows what else , but they come off in chunks and absorb moisture in the gut . There they begin to swell like a sponge taking up water . Indigestible , they saponify , get soapy-slimy. They act as a dam preventing food from going through the digestive system. Put pressure on tissue. They spoil in the gut creating bacterial havoc , tissue dies , necrotizes and then you have emergency surgery .
> One of my high levels competition dogs spoiled by his loving owner was on the operating table and when it was evident how much damage had been done and how much of the intestine was dead , necrotic tissue, the owner and vet humanely kept him under the anaesthetic and helped him pass on to his next journey .
> When the vet phoned the supplier / importer of these raw hide products they were lightning fast to respond with cash , compensation - without questions at all - so not unfamiliar with the problem .


Wow I didn't know that thank you for sharing there is a lot I still don't know she is my first GSD  I will remove all the rawhides and tell all my friends who have dogs to discontinue these evil treats. Any other treats I should be aware of? I usually don't even buy her treats often chews yes but not treats. I give her boiled chicken breast when training her.. And other boiled meat sometimes... Oh and beef jerky rarely. Is beef jerky safe for dogs?


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## carmspack

I , personally would pass on jerky treats . You have to read the package . Lots of salt, sugar, some with BHA or Nitrites , one had onion powder , colourants , then whatever chemicals some may have to make it smell (or taste) smoked .


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## marshies

julie87 said:


> Wow I didn't know that thank you for sharing there is a lot I still don't know she is my first GSD  I will remove all the rawhides and tell all my friends who have dogs to discontinue these evil treats. Any other treats I should be aware of? I usually don't even buy her treats often chews yes but not treats. I give her boiled chicken breast when training her.. And other boiled meat sometimes... Oh and beef jerky rarely. Is beef jerky safe for dogs?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


For training treats, I also generally use fresh human ingredients, like boiled chicken. I sometimes also do an egg or kefir/yogurt and green tripe mixed with her kibble. I try to stick as close to natural training treats as possible so not to put too much junk in her as I do feed ALOT of training treats.

In terms of chews, I do give bully sticks (you can also get dried trachea, tendon, or something else more appealing to you). My dog also likes antlers. If you feed these, introduce them with the half sliced ones. She wasn't very interested in the full sized ones.


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## julie87

carmspack said:


> I , personally would pass on jerky treats . You have to read the package . Lots of salt, sugar, some with BHA or Nitrites , one had onion powder , colourants , then whatever chemicals some may have to make it smell (or taste) smoked .


I ment the the beef jerky that humans eat, is that bad as well?


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## Sokoli

hoplite6 said:


> Baron had a floppy right ear at just under five months and I took qbchottu's advise and handed him his first bully stick. Ear went up the next day and has stayed there. Hope things work out.


I have a same problem right now whith my lovely Lisa

She had 2 ears up and a week ago the right ear start flopy. I want to know if is to late or to early to do something

She is 5 months old


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## Sokoli




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## julie87

I thought I would update everyone, Arexa is now 7 months old, I removed the glue and breathe strips 2 days ago. Her ears are still now up! That spay really messed her up because they were up before then now its been 2 months and her ears are a mess! Here is updated picture of her


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## carmspack

could you post a picture of her standing ?


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## julie87

yep,hang on


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## julie87

Here we go


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## julie87

And this is her standing when her ears were glued without breathe strips just tear mender glue. This is about 3 weeks ago, just thought I would post it for comparison.


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## wolfy dog

Spaying and teething and maybe even vaccines(?) have an effect on their immune system. Did she get her rabies shot at the time of her spay surgery? If so, that could have an extra impact.


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## Kaity

julie87 said:


> I don't want to let her ears just do their thing, why? Because she is going to be 7 months old on 11/26 what should I wait for? It doesn't hurt her to have her ears taped/glued. Im afraid if I wait they won't ever be up again and then she will be floppy GSD all her life, my goal was to find out from other members here based on my pictures to see if her ears are they way they are now if they will ever be up on their own.
> 
> And Carmen started saying that her paw is shaved does that mean I torchure my dog? And dog doesn't have ANY muscle? Seriously Carmen you are a breeder and you say she has NO muscle? Did she not see my pictures what is her definition of "musculant" dog....I really don't want to make this into a drama thread so lets just leave it at that. I dont mean to be rude to anyone and please lets just move on. Carmen, thank you for your concern about nutrition I understand that it is very important because it affects her whole health and her life span not just her ears.




.. just leave the ears alone. If they don't go up it's not the end of the world. Worse things have happened. **** happens, you deal with it. Doesnt make her any less of a dog because of it.

The more you mess with the ears and touch them, yes, the more you HARM them. Ears may not go up until AFTER a year. I've seen it happen. Let nature do its thing and don't meddle with it or you may do more damage than good. It's like fixing a computer you know nothing about, then it doesn't turn on afterwards.. you just ruin a good thing.


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## carmspack

okay , she has a nice tight dry type build -- could stand a little more weight through muscle - in the sitting picture her prosternum was protruding so I wanted to see her standing to see how much tuck she has -- not bad .
In the sitting picture she looks like a 1960's retro Pierette Eden - remember the craze for the huge eyes - like so Vintage Eden Pierette Print | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

The muzzle is large and so is the eye making the face look gaunt. 

Seriously though I wouldn't muck around with the ears . they were up , they should come up again. Cartilage in the ear can be damaged . Nice pup !


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## julie87

wolfy dog said:


> Spaying and teething and maybe even vaccines(?) have an effect on their immune system. Did she get her rabies shot at the time of her spay surgery? If so, that could have an extra impact.


She got her rabies when she was 3 months old, she didn't receive any vaccines. Her ears were almost up on their own until the spay. After they spay they gave up.


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## carmspack

3 months seems very early for rabies ,
the spay , at a prime growth period , was an assault on her body , let her recover , give her what she needs to do so.


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## julie87

carmspack said:


> okay , she has a nice tight dry type build -- could stand a little more weight through muscle - in the sitting picture her prosternum was protruding so I wanted to see her standing to see how much tuck she has -- not bad .
> In the sitting picture she looks like a 1960's retro Pierette Eden - remember the craze for the huge eyes - like so Vintage Eden Pierette Print | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> The muzzle is large and so is the eye making the face look gaunt.
> 
> Seriously though I wouldn't muck around with the ears . they were up , they should come up again. Cartilage in the ear can be damaged . Nice pup !


Yes, I figured thats why you wanted to see her standing up  We were just at the vet 3 days ago, and she said her weight is perfect for her size, she is just on the smaller size for GSD. She is 44 pounds and you can't see her ribs but you can feel them and you can see her waistline. I actually noticed lately she seemed a bit skinny to me thats why I asked the vet that question, she is also blowing her coat so that makes her appear even more skinny, I was thinking she was going bald with all the fur coming off her  I also switched her food to Blue Buffelo Wilderness I still mix it with Royal Canin until her poop firms up a bit  its been a week so far. I will try taping again soon because that was the most effective for her even though she took it off the next day there was a lot more difference than from gluing. I can't let it go I need her ears up, thanks for your advice Carmen


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## wolfy dog

How about leaving these young bodies alone as much as possible? No neuter, spay or over vaccinations until they are fully grown?
It is easy to say to not care but it is a bummer when they don't get up. I know it doesn't change the dog's personality but a great part of the beauty of a GSD are the ears. They make the dog look regal. Ever seen the Farside cartoon about domestication of the wolf?
I am always sorry for owners of a GSD if the ears don't get up.
I have a sight hound with erect ears , so the opposite problem. He is 11 years old now and I still notice it but wouldn't trade him for the world.


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## julie87

carmspack said:


> 3 months seems very early for rabies ,
> the spay , at a prime growth period , was an assault on her body , let her recover , give her what she needs to do so.


Yes, poor dog. She is my first personal dog and I will never spay again...I don't get how removing body parts suppose to make them healthier..they say it prevents certain cancers but then again it increases chancer for other diseases...why do it at all... I will deal with her heat cycles and behavior issues but I will never let them spay another dog of mine... but thats already another topic.


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## carmspack

oh , you can spay , just wait until the body has fully matured


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## julie87

wolfy dog said:


> How about leaving these young bodies alone as much as possible? No neuter, spay or over vaccinations until they are fully grown?
> It is easy to say to not care but it is a bummer when they don't get up. I know it doesn't change the dog's personality but a great part of the beauty of a GSD are the ears. They make the dog look regal. Ever seen the Farside cartoon about domestication of the wolf?
> I am always sorry for owners of a GSD if the ears don't get up.
> I have a sight hound with erect ears , so the opposite problem. He is 11 years old now and I still notice it but wouldn't trade him for the world.


100% agree with you, everything the vet does ruins our dogs, they don't help. I come from Russia in a small village, we had our local vet there, but we would NEVER spay animals and NEVER give vaccines, and guess what? They were always healthy, my childhood dog just died 2 years ago, he lived to be 17 years old and never seen a vet in his lifetime, he was fed human food, we were poor back there so what we had he would have as well, and he was SO HEALTHY. All the toxins from dog food and the vet office just do more harm then good! Oh and by the way it was very common to have GSD as guard dog back there, and none of them had the normal genetic issues they usually have in USA or UK and so on... forget hip displsia forget DM, and forget kidney problems.. none of them existed back there...just thought I would mention it


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## julie87

carmspack said:


> oh , you can spay , just wait until the body has fully matured


I wish I discovered this forum BEFORE I got my dog. The morning I called the vet to schedule the spay she was 5 months old and they said to do it asap before her first heat cycle. Also our state requires each dog owner to have a dog license before 4 months of age that includes her rabies, and they must be spayed or their fees are 10 times more expenssive to license them. I wish I didn't listen to the vet, I learned a lot more from these forums form helful folks here then I learned from vets, I will never take advice from vet again, I will research and ask on this forum, people here a lot more trustworthy then the vet.


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## VanBuren shepherds

Here is a great link: http://texasworkingshepherds.com/my-german-shepherd-ears/


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## julie87

Its been 7 days after taping, I removed the glue/tape 10 minutes ago I think the picture speaks for itself  I am so relieved they are standing I'll wait a few more days to take new pictures for everyone to see just to make sure they are still standing  I AM SO EXCITED!!!!!!!!!!!


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## hattifattener

:thumbup:congratulations!!


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## VanBuren shepherds

They look great, but don't get disappointed if they begin to get weak again after a day or so. Just keep doing it and eventually it will work. It could take months, but it will be worth it in the end. I hope they stay this time. I've been working on my eight month old for over a month. They look great for a couple of hours when the glue comes out. Then he goes and plays with my female and they begin to get weak again. He has taller ears like yours does, so it will take longer. When they drop they look exactly like your GSD. 


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## julie87

One up most of the time, the other one still flops, well its better than before which is completely floppy.. will be retaping tomorrow 


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## VanBuren shepherds

Keep it up. Looking great!


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## julie87

VanBuren shepherds said:


> Keep it up. Looking great!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Thank you I'm trying )) 


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## julie87

She just turned 8 months, I didn't retape again, kept putting it off until the ears started getting up on their own  She picks both of them up when she is asleep, and the rest of the day she picks up one or the other


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## Jovi_Girl

I've heard that you've seen your pup's ears up at some point, not to worry if they flop back down. If they go up once, they'll go up again. 


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## VanBuren shepherds

My male just turned 10 months old a couple of days ago. His ears look exactly the same as yours. I live in west Texas and they will go with which ever way the wind is blowing. I've read that the grand sire of my pup actually produces weak eared pups although he was considered the best in german show lines just a few years ago.
I left his ears alone for the past week to let them stand up and see what they will do on their on. They're up probably about 20% of the time. They stand perfectly when he runs, but usually come back down a few minutes later into the flying nun position. They were up before teething, so I hope they will come back up on their own! They are very tall and thin ears. I taped them again today just to assist them. The crease is beginning to set in his ears the wrong way. 
On a positive note I have had another male who's ears didn't stand until almost 10 months, so I know it is possible!
This was before teething!







And this is now!







This was the other male who ears stood at 10 months!







His ears were much worse than either one of our pups!


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## julie87

He is handsome and I'm sure they will go up! 


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## VanBuren shepherds

julie87 said:


> He is handsome and I'm sure they will go up!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Thank you! I'm positive yours will also!


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## Maxx

If you're still feeding your dog, Royal Canin, you should change it. It really is a poor quality dog food. Just because there's a picture of a GSD on the bag doesn't make it a good food. I think Carmen was completely accurate with her original diagnosis. Besides being wary of vets, you shouldn't completely trust pet food stores. I think they all have corporate deals with the dog food companies so they have to really market (sell) these dog foods, even subpar ones.

Ask on the forum. I believe in less or no grains and no corn. If there's any corn (including corn gluten), pass on that food and consider another one. 

Raw is best, imho, but the next best alternative is a kibble with decent ingredients.


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## julie87

Maxx said:


> If you're still feeding your dog, Royal Canin, you should change it. It really is a poor quality dog food. Just because there's a picture of a GSD on the bag doesn't make it a good food. I think Carmen was completely accurate with her original diagnosis. Besides being wary of vets, you shouldn't completely trust pet food stores. I think they all have corporate deals with the dog food companies so they have to really market (sell) these dog foods, even subpar ones.
> 
> Ask on the forum. I believe in less or no grains and no corn. If there's any corn (including corn gluten), pass on that food and consider another one.
> 
> Raw is best, imho, but the next best alternative is a kibble with decent ingredients.


I switched her to to Blue Buffello LBP thank you for your concern


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## Maxx

julie87 said:


> I switched her to to Blue Buffello LBP thank you for your concern


Did you look at this site before? 

What we DONT carry, and why

I think even though it's a pet store site, it's probably one of the best I've come across. 

I would look at the 'what we carry' section and choose one on that list that is available at your (local) pet store(s). 

I was buying crappy brands for a while and even though I thought I found a decent one (Natural Balance), the brand looks like it's had recalls, too. I haven't found the one I get (Small Breed/Small kibble) on the list, though. Knock on wood. But, the brands that store carries sound like a much safer choice. My problem is my dog has health issues and prefers a smaller kibble (I think). I'm going to look at one of those for the next time I buy dog food. 

Anyway, that's just my two cents. It can't hurt to have a more quality food. It might not get the ears to stand up but I think it would help with overall health for the long term and who knows, it could contribute to stronger structure.


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## julie87

On our walk today


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## x11

cuuuuute


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## julie87

One year old now, ears are up most of the time  such a gorgeous lady she is!


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## zzena

wow, she is beautiful. just curious, how much does she weigh?


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## julie87

She is exactly 60 pounds  


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## Cheyanna

60 pounds? She is smaller than Fiona, but looks bigger.


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## julie87

It's only the picture that makes her look bigger









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