# What to say to people against breeders?



## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

So I've got a question, it's just something I'm curious about. The way I see it, rescue is great. I'm not denying that great rescue dogs are just as possible as great purebreds, and that sometimes buying from a breeder doesn't turn out all too great. But I personally want to know what lineage my dog has to prevent bad genes that will run up my vet bills later, and I want to raise that dog myself so I know he hasn't had some wacky past that ruined him which I only find out later.

When I told a friend about the litter I'm waiting for is coming later in the year, and how another one of similar parentage won't be coming until next summer, she said "well but if they're a breeder, aren't they having puppies constantly?" in a kind of derogatory way. I said that good breeders don't crank them out like puppy mills, and only do a few litters a year.

When I told another friend I was getting a puppy, she asked if I was getting a rescue, and when I said a breeder, she made a horrified, scandalized face at me.

I mean, it doesn't really bother me. I'll just as soon ignore it. I just was wondering what you guys say when people react and say things like that, if anything.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't say anything. I have a shelter adoption, a rescue we found on the road and a byb. I've fostered, I've eval'd, I've pulled from shelters. I wanted one from a good breeder. Buying from a good breeder is not adding to the pet population. It's not killing a dog in a shelter that I wouldn't adopt anyways.

I've done my share and I don't need to defend my decision to anyone. What have you done?

That's what you say...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Some people say that as long as there is a pet overpopulation problem, we should not be breeding pets under any circumstances.

But think about dogs that save lives... SAR, Police k9, military dogs, bomb-sniffing dogs. Not to mention the dogs that make people's lives easier... guide dogs for the blind, assistance dogs for the disabled, etc. Working dogs that herd or guard livestock, can make or break a rancher's livelihood. These are dogs that need a high level of certain instincts and attributes, and those are not often found in random-bred shelter dogs. They need careful selection, and the best way to do this is to breed so that these attributes are hard-wired.

That is the main point that I bring up when talking to anti-breeding people. There are other points to made such as predictability. If you need to be reasonably assured of a certain physical type or temperament, you get a better chance of it with a well-bred purebred whose ancestors are known and carefully selected for these attributes.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

With the amount of unwanted dogs we kill every year in this country I can't say they are all wrong. 

And I breed.

This is just one of those things that everyone has to find their own comfort level and be happy with the decision they make at this point in their life, knowing that not everyone will agree with them.

Not really much help am I? LOL


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Since I have a shelter dog, I don't get too many scandalized looks when I say that Gryffon came from a breeder - usually the question that comes up is why did I choose a breeder from the States instead of finding one locally - I just say that I was looking for specific bloodlines (working lines), for a specific purpose, and had very specific requirements of the type of breeder I would be willing to buy from. 

In your case, people equate all breeders with puppy mill type puppy producers - it's great that the general public is becoming more aware of the bad ethics of many breeders, and are more rescue/adopt oriented, but there still needs to be work done in educating people about good, responsible breeders vs. BYB, and glorified puppy mills: i.e: breeders who on the surface seem responsible/reputable, but have mega breeding females, several litters on the ground at the same time on an on-going basis, breed and market to the uneducated pet buyer looking to buy prestige, say they will take pups back anytime if it doesn't work out, but never do, etc . . .


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If I had anything derogatory to say it would be to the rescues that keep pulling nervy fear bitey maladjusted disease bags from kill shelters and sinking god awful amounts of money into them so that they might have a Facebook feed feel good story instead of plucking the best of the best that could easily turn out to be great family home dogs. 

Somewhere around 80-90% of dogs born every year don't survive long enough to see their first birthday. It's a triage situation. Pick the best and the brightest. 

Heart worm positive? Pass
Bad allergies? Pass
Aggression? Pass
Nervy and fearful? Pass
Injured? Pass


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Baillif said:


> If I had anything derogatory to say it would be to the rescues that keep pulling nervy fear bitey maladjusted disease bags from kill shelters and sinking god awful amounts of money into them so that they might have a Facebook feed feel good story instead of plucking the best of the best that could easily turn out to be great family home dogs.
> 
> Somewhere around 80-90% of dogs born every year don't survive long enough to see their first birthday. It's a triage situation. Pick the best and the brightest.
> 
> ...


This. So much of this. I volunteered for a rescue for a while that did exactly this and ended up leaving because I just got so frustrated with it. And they were so horrible about acting like the dog just needed some family attention and that would magically fix all its problems. People would ask them about the dogs and the employees would just say that all their dogs would be great family pets when in reality there were three major fear biters, one extreme allergy case that needed ridiculously expensive meds, one with Pica that needed constant monitoring, and several others with severe behavioral issues that would benefit most from heavy work with a behavioralist. 

I just wasn't comfortable talking to any potential adopters about them because we were instructed to "always present the dog's good side". And apparently leave the issues for the family to find out on their own when their dog compulsively eats something that kills it, chews through a solid wall to escape a room, or bites one of their children? 

No way.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I've had dogs from breeders from rescues and from shelters. I love all my dog no matter where they have come from and people being against either breeders or rescues really ticks me off. 

If I choose to spend my money with a dog from a breeder that is my choice. 

If I choose to spend my money training and helping a fearful nerve bag that is also my choice. 

It is my money and my time. Anyone who wants to sit in judgement of me can kiss my behind. I'm old enough to not care what others think anymore.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I adopted my first dog from the local shelter, my second dog was purchased from a BYB, and finally I have Delgado who came from a reputable breeder.

I don't feel like I need to explain anything but if they really push I simply explain that I've already 'rescued' two dogs and I love/loved them with all my heart but I wanted a dog that I would get from a young pup that had a SOLID foundation behind him in his breeding.

I'm not against rescues, my parents have been fostering for a rescue for a few years and I just signed up to be a volunteer with them as well. They have their place but purchasing a dog from a good breeder shouldn't be a black mark against you


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Hmm, all good answers so far! I'm not against rescues by any means myself for the record. I'm glad to hear all these good answers for future use.

I did admittedly feel a little defensive though in other respects, because the actual first thing people said to me was start grilling me with frowny faces about what I'm going to do when I'm not home etc., meanwhile I'm quitting my full time job (not financially crucial) to raise him properly, lining up dog daycares in case I ever need to be away for too long and so forth, while their dogs are at home barely going out really, one who is so obese you can't feel a rib if you try and waddles (they refuse to admit she's fat) and is obviously depressed. Like go lie under the end table in the corner behind the couch with her face between her paws depressed. But it's ok, because they're small dogs.
Grr haha I love my friends but that annoyed me a little. Vent over. Sorry.


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

I think like any other instance in life is that you should be able to get a dog from wherever your heart desires. People are so fast to judge what others do because "they" believe their way is the only way. I would dismiss their comments and continue to be a great dog owner no mater where it came from. THAT is what stops dogs going to shelters is if you actually have a dog you love and are able to manage.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I rarely say anything. I have a 30-second canned elevator spiel for those times when I feel like making an exception, but generally I regard this viewpoint with the same weary distaste that I have for people who say any other profoundly wrong-headed thing about dogdom ("I want to adopt a puppy so I can raise him to be nice," or "my doodle breeder told me it doesn't matter if the parents have been OFA'ed because hybrid vigor means they can't be dysplastic," or whatever other thing makes me quietly reach for the nearest vodka bottle).

There's too much of a chasm of ignorance for me to have the energy to bridge that, most days. I'm tired and burned out and generally I just don't even want to muster up the minimal effort needed to destroy the other person's position.

So as a rule I don't say anything.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I agree with the others. I think it's wonderful to find a great family pet at the shelter and I'd encourage anyone to go that route first. 

But there are people who compete or use dogs as a profession and to them the genetics mean a lot.

Also, if we stopped breeding, we'd lose all these wonderful breeds and their attributes that makes them so naturally good at what they're meant to do (Border Collies for sheep herding for example). 

I don't worry too much about defending my choices to other people


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dont get me wrong im not against rescues or adopting in general. Its a great thing when done right. Its adding to a problem when done wrong.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

I am trying to avoid the conversations with ignorant, opinionated people regardless what topics they choose.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The majority of people still believe that its nurture over nature when it comes to dogs. They don’t understand how the genetics of a dog play a part in their personality and temperament and how many of the issues you do see in dogs, are just hard-wired and not due to a past life experience.

Most people that know me don’t question me. I don’t really hang out with people that have mutts…not because I don’t like them, but it’s because I’m always doing something with my dogs that draws me towards people with purebreds. Most people that have asked me, always start by asking what I do with my dog, and when the answer involves dog shows/trials/IPO and SDA training, they don’t really question why you don’t have a shelter dog.

I will admit that if you’re not really doing sport/work/showing with your dog, part of me believes that you should look towards a shelter dog or a rescue (if you do want a specific breed). I cringe when someone wants a shepherd for the “status” and not really for the breed characteristics. The truth is, our breed has gone in so many different directions because people don’t do their research, and just want a dog that looks like X but acts like Y. If you really look at it, if you want a dog just for “companionship” most breeds would do…especially a rescue.

And I don’t care to be questioned about my opinion. It’s just how I feel about these things. I’ll still talk to someone, help them when I can, and consider them a friend or an acquaintance if they do have a GSD just for “companionship” or spend $5000 to import a GSD for that reason. I’m not here to tell anyone what they should and shouldn’t do with their money. But sometimes, I do wish people would think about what they need out of a dog and then decide what kind of dog fits that.

I’ll also tell you that with my bitch (a breeder return due to health problems with the original owner), the feeling of giving her a home is light years above my male who we bought as a puppy. It’s just a different feeling knowing you’re giving a dog that’s been through some problems a home. I won’t go into the story too much, but she was taught to suppress her prey drive…even though we knew it was there…and the moment she actually bit the flirt pole, after waving it in front of her face for 2 months…was easily the best feeling I’ve ever had in my short dog training career. Knowing that you’ve helped a dog come out of its shell, knowing that the dog now trusts you enough to do something it was taught not to do before, is light years better than any feeling I’ve had with my male.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Yeah, I don't have the time to re-educate every idiot on the planet. Since I have fostered, transported and done home visits for rescues, worked in an open admission shelter and purchased from breeders, I generally just make a generic comment about how nice dogs can be found anywhere and leave it at that. 
Sheilah


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What I say to people against breeders and purebred dogs is I want to know how involved THEY are in rescue and what experience gives them the right to get on a soapbox about my decisions? I have purebred dogs and a dog that has been bred but I also have rescue dogs, foster for rescue, help place dogs that need to be rehomes, and am always referring people to reputable local rescues. Most people who have made snotty comments to me about my purebred dogs have no involvement in rescue themselves other than maybe adopting one dog ever.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Without good breeders, all that would be left are poorly bred dogs and mutts.

I would have plenty to say about rescues and the idea of rescues, but I will keep that to myself.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I guess I've never had someone look at me in askance because I didn't rescue. Maybe it's not that vogue around here as it seems to be in other areas of the U.S. It really irks me when people use the 'you are killing a dog at the shelter when you buy a puppy" because a) umm no I'm not and b) I wouldn't be taking one from the shelter just because I didn't purchase a dog. I just wouldn't have a dog. I have a cat and a small dog and need to make sure any BIG dog I bring in will be good with that. I just don't trust that I will get the accurate information from someone trying to get me to adopt. Not from the local rescue people.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You were excited about the puppy you are anticipating and these people are trying to steal your joy. They are jealous and mean spirited. They are dementors. Don't give them another thought. 

You do not have to justify how you obtain your dog. It is nobody's business. Justifying it puts you on the defensive and that makes them win, even if your arguments for it are better. Doesn't matter. You will not change their minds. You will only let them know that they've gotten under your skin. 

Instead, you now have more information about those particular individuals. File it away. They are probably people you do not want to share personal information with.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I haven't really ran into that myself. Probably because everyone close to me knows the story of Riley and why I went to a breeder this time. 

FYI, going to a breeder does not prevent bad genes. You just get better odds.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Its when emotion overcomes logic that the whole rescue thing turns sour for me. Unfortunately it happens too much. You have people that know nothing about training or evaluating the dog infront of them acting like they have a clue.. Merge that with a holier then thou attitude and it all falls apart.

They say the road to **** is paved with good intentions..I tend to believe that .


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Folks: the only truth I've indelibly learned in 30+ years of working in an ER is that the dumbest people are also the loudest. You have to tune them out. 
I rescued because I can't afford a breeder. I am aware, after all these years, of the downside to every option, and I'm intelligent enough to make a choice. I also won't whine about the consequences. 
The only time I feel I have to justify my behavior is if I'm stuffing a chocolate cream pie down my craw while a child dies of starvation on the ground next to me.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I caught some flak from family and friends for getting my dogs from a breeder. We are the second home for both of our dogs too. One friend even said... Purebred dogs, so sweet and so dead, when we were wondering about a limp on one of our dogs that turned out to be a paw abrasion. She was referring to hip dysplasia.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I haven't been asked this question in a long time but my response would be.......

It's not my fault that there are dogs in shelters. I did not put them there. I want a purebred dog and I want to buy one from a reputable breeder that breeds dogs that fit the breed standard health and temperament wise. I want to know the health background of my puppy's family and I want to increase my chances of having a nice, healthy, sound, stable dog. 

I love people that rescue, I think it's great and I wish more people did it rather than purposely buying mutts or designer dogs. I would like to adopt a medium sized Border Collie mix or some kind of medium fluffy mix but I want purebreds right now that are from good breeders.


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

I stopped rescuing adult dogs a few years back after I rescued a boxer/mastiff. I took Apple to obedience school, worked to rehab her but Apple was not safe with being around children. She was excellent with my kids but became dangerously protective to the point she put my kids and their friends in danger. I sought a behaviorist advice and it was her opinion Apple would NEVER be safe around kids. It broke my heart to admit I failed this beautiful creature. She was my baby but my kids safety had to come first. My behaviorist worked diligently to place Apple in an ADULT only home. 
I would love to rescue but I can't risk my kids safety! I buy from a reputable breeder because it is best for me and my family. There are a lot of great dogs in a shelter but there are also a lot that are not suitable for a family. I will still take sick puppies and nurse them back to health, neuter/spay, take to obedience school and find a forever home for them. But as long as my kids are small I choose to know my pets background and temperament and that is what I say to those who judge me for having purebreds.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I will admit that if you’re not really doing sport/work/showing with your dog, part of me believes that you should look towards a shelter dog or a rescue (if you do want a specific breed). I cringe when someone wants a shepherd for the “status” and not really for the breed characteristics. .


I find that laughable. Where do you think folks get their basis for their wants and needs in a dog? From folks from shelters and rescues running around with sport/working or showing those dogs? No - they get it from the average Joe on the street with a well trained GSD. When they research (via internet) they'll see video after video of working dogs. 

The number of people who own GSDs on this forum as companions, FAR out number the folks who actually utilize their dogs for work. They are in the majority. By leaps and bounds. A majority of those folks have no problems with the dogs they selected...for what ever reason. BTW - I have no idea what 'status' I'm in because I have a GSD. I wasn't aware there was such a status. 

You can't condemn people for wanting a breed based on the description AKC provides regarding the breed:

*AKC Meet the Breeds®*

The German Shepherd Dog is hailed as the world's leading police, guard and military dog, however, this dependable breed is more than its 9-to-5 job. Consistently one of the United States most popular breeds according to AKC® Registration Statistics, the German Shepherd Dog is also a loving family companion, herder and show competitor. The breed is approachable, direct and fearless, with a strong, muscular body. The GSD may be most colors, but most commonly is black and tan.


If I was looking for a dog for my family, based on this description alone, I'd put the GSD into serious consideration.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I would say,
Were i get my dogs is absolutely non of anyones business, and if it was a rescue that asked, I guess i would have to answer that with a question about why dogs in korea and the states are far more important then dogs in ontario.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Yay! What shepherdmom said.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree Lilie, there's no better companion dog than a GSD! I honestly wouldn't have any other breed. It's very presumptuous to assume that unless people want them as 'working dogs' that their traits aren't appreciated. I'm sure some people are in over their heads, but since when do people always make the best choice - and since when are their mistakes a reflection on us? In martemchik's defence, he did say "a part of him believes" so it's quite likely that if he met us and our GSDs, he'd understand that we admire them for the same reasons, and have no interest in dogs that "act like Y." 

As far as telling people why my current dog came from a breeder - that's none of their business. I get this from my family too, being called an elitist because I'll only have GSDs, lol. But since I've also adopted adults in the past, they know I'm not against "saving" them, and giving them a second chance - even though they questioned me on my current choice, they're not comfortable with where the conversation leads, which is usually me wondering if having such easy access to shelters doesn't promote the whole BYB problem right there. It's just as bad to have someone say that, lol, trust me.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

when it's a dude i say. "ha, the same shelter that you found your wife? ha, no thanks."


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

If the dog is loved, well taken care of, gets the attention and exercise it deserves/requires then who cares if it's in a pet home, working home or show home?!

I am a pet home, I have a GSD, I love the breed and I would like to have more in the future, I am an excellent GSD owner, my dog is very well behaved and he is trained, but because I am a pet home I don't deserve a well bred GSD from a reputable breeder? That's crap.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

If I am going to get into that conversation, I always start by explaining the difference between a reputable breeder and a byb. Usually that alone changes the ideas in their head because most don't know there is a deifference. Then I usually just tell people that if they want a dog that they can generally predict temperment, activity level, health, etc. Then a breeder is well worth it. I also tell them the reasons breeders exist for working dogs, sport dogs, show dogs, health of the breed etc. As I am looking at rescuing, I see no issues with it as long as you know what you are looking for and how to look for it. That and you also recognize the possibility of things coming up that you never knew about or expected and not rehoming the pup because it wasn't what you wanted. 

Obviously things happen with breeding too. There is always that one that has problems the others didn't, or temperment that was just off. But generally speaking, if going through a good breeder, you will know what you are getting. 

I am going to start something here... I know it... but this just brings up some other question.. like well what if we were for breeding vs rescues. Like genuinely good breeding and maybe rescues were done away with. Then, if you think about it, we would be left with well bred dogs with the right intentions..

Obviously I don't think we should get rid of rescues but it just brings up other things if people are going to argue one way or another.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I find that laughable. Where do you think folks get their basis for their wants and needs in a dog? From folks from shelters and rescues running around with sport/working or showing those dogs? No - they get it from the average Joe on the street with a well trained GSD. When they research (via internet) they'll see video after video of working dogs.
> 
> The number of people who own GSDs on this forum as companions, FAR out number the folks who actually utilize their dogs for work. They are in the majority. By leaps and bounds. A majority of those folks have no problems with the dogs they selected...for what ever reason. BTW - I have no idea what 'status' I'm in because I have a GSD. I wasn't aware there was such a status.
> 
> ...


Do you purposely skip parts of what I write? Or is it just an issue with comprehension?

I don't condemn anyone for going to a breeder, and I don't care that most of the people on here have their dogs as companions. All I'm saying is that when you do think about it on a deeper level...any dog is capable of being the companion the majority of this forum needs. I don't care that their decision was to purchase a purebred from a breeder, people make that decision for themselves, I was just stating that sometimes you look at the shelter overpopulation issue and think that if even a few more people that just needed "companions" went with a shelter or a rescue...we would make some dent in the issue.

A LOT of people buy purebred dogs for status. People love going around talking about how the sire or dam of their dog is an AKC champion or a Sieger. People also love bragging about how the sire or dam has IPO titles even when they have no idea what any of those things are. If you think that doesn't exist...you need to meet more people with dogs. We see it all the time on this forum...a new member comes on to brag about their puppy coming from this dog or that bitch, thinking it impresses people. Or the ones that like to brag about how the sire or dam (sometimes both) are active police K9s.

If you believe that people are spending upwards of $3000 on a purebred SL GSD for any reason other than the fact that they can tell their friends they bought a GSD for $3000 you're kidding yourself.

And the fact that people are just looking for a "family pet" out of a GSD is a large part of why we have all these "family pet" breeders that aren't breeding to the standard anymore. And yes, many of them can look just as good and reputable as the list that gets thrown around this forum.

And just a heads up...based on that description, the only thing "above" any other breeds description is the fact that the GSD is the worlds leading police, military, and guard dog. And that its one of the most popular AKC breeds. A TON of breeds can be described as a loving family companion, herder, show competitor and approachable, direct, fearless, with a strong muscular body (although I'm not sure why that last part should have anything to do with picking a dog).


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

martemchik said:


> If you believe that people are spending upwards of $3000 on a purebred SL GSD for any reason other than the fact that they can tell their friends they bought a GSD for $3000 you're kidding yourself.


Not exactly $3,000 but my co worker is strictly a pet owner and she is on her 4th GSD from a show breeder and each dog she purchased was $2,000. I have never heard her boast about where she got her dogs, in fact she doesn't like telling people how much she spent. Temperment and health were the most important things to her as well as appearance and that is why she paid that much money.

When I get a Doberman puppy I will be spending between $2,000-2,500 for a puppy from a reputable breeder. I will not be boasting about how much I spend because the price actually makes me a little sick but I want to increase my odds of having a healthy, stable dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Maybe it's a regional thing? In my area, we GSD owners are very admiring of each others' dogs, both SL and WL alike, but we've never mentioned price. I honestly don't know how I'd react to such an intrusive question, lol. Hmm.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Not exactly $3,000 but my co worker is strictly a pet owner and she is on her 4th GSD from a show breeder and each dog she purchased was $2,000. I have never heard her boast about where she got her dogs, in fact she doesn't like telling people how much she spent. Temperment and health were the most important things to her as well as appearance and that is why she paid that much money.
> 
> When I get a Doberman puppy I will be spending between $2,000-2,500 for a puppy from a reputable breeder. I will not be boasting about how much I spend because the price actually makes me a little sick but I want to increase my odds of having a healthy, stable dog.


You don't have to boast about it. You don't have to tell anyone. The fact is, anyone that is somewhat involved with dogs knows how much a purebred anything costs. So when you get a purebred, you're sending out a signal that you spent around that much money. It's partially why a BYB can stay in business...people buy a dog for cheaper, but others think they've spent thousands. Status.

And pointing out that some people don't do it for that reason, doesn't mean many others do. It's the same reason people buy a Lexus over a Toyota, or a Mercedes over a Chevy. When you see the car, you make a judgment about that person's status.

Again...my whole point was that in reality, many people just don't need a purebred dog of any kind. Purebreds were bred in order to do some sort of job using their natural instincts. At the end of the day, if you don't need your dog for that job, any dog will do. It's just simple logic. I don't care that people still buy purebreds, like I said, I'll still help every single one of them and I'll still be their friend, you'll never hear from me that someone made the "wrong decision" by purchasing that dog. I'm just saying that if someone wanted a GSD to be their loyal bird hunting dog...we'd turn them in a different direction...why is it that hard to turn someone towards a shelter dog if all they want is a companion?

Anytime money is involved, I can just as easily make the statement that if you plan on spending $2500 on a dog, why not get a $200 shelter dog and have $2300 left for any medical issue that might come up. Also...an older dog will give you a much greater chance of finding a "healthy/stable" dog because you'll already know that dogs medical issues (at that moment) and you'll also be able to gauge it's temperament (which is at this point probably fully developed). Anyone that knows anything will tell you no matter how much you spend on a puppy...its a crapshoot. You can raise your odds of getting what you want...but at the end of the day you're still risking a lot more than if you were to look at an older dog. That's just a fact.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Again...my whole point was that in reality, many people just don't need a purebred dog of any kind. Purebreds were bred in order to do some sort of job using their natural instincts.


Which is precisely why this is my breed of choice. Call it their natural instincts, their traits, the breed disposition, whatever - name another breed that's even close? And with a mixed breed, that's a huge gamble if you're looking for a dog that behaves as a GSD does.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> Which is precisely why this is my breed of choice. Call it their natural instincts, their traits, the breed disposition, whatever - name another breed that's even close? And with a mixed breed, that's a huge gamble if you're looking for a dog that behaves as a GSD does.


No...I get it. It's why I got a GSD in the first place. That's why I don't want people to think I'm judging.

But your last statement makes my point...at the end of the day, why does someone need a dog that acts like a GSD if all they're going to use it for is a companion that lounges around the house and gets a 20 minute walk twice a day? Don't care that this is why the majority of people get the dog...I get it, it's our society today. But if you truly do look at the "reason" you have/need your dog...a mutt would do.

I'll even say it about myself...the only reason I got into bite sport, was because I purchased a GSD. My GSD wasn't purchased with the intent to do bite sport, it was just something that life led me to. If I had any other type of dog, I'm sure I would've found something else to do with my time and money and the fact that bite sport wouldn't be part of my life wouldn't affect me much because before I had a GSD I had no idea what that was. So in all technicality...my statement is hypocritical. So I don't want people to think I'm being high and mighty because I currently do bite sport. It's not about that at all. It's just about the fact that many people (including myself) would get by just fine without a purebred GSD or anything else for that matter.

Here's the thing...most people won't admit it (I will). When you buy a purebred, without the intent to use it for what it was bred to do, you're basing your decision mostly on the LOOK of the dog and the reputation that breed has. A GSD...looks like your local K9, GSD is known to be a great guard dog, people will be scared of it/offers you a level of protection, ect. The look, reputation, ect...gives the owner a level of status/respect. I'm not saying this is a terrible reason to buy a dog, but if you deny that reasoning, I feel like you're somewhat lying to yourself. I'll admit that I purchased my GSD partially because of those reasons. I knew what just owning a dog that looks like a GSD looks, gives me all the things that society tends to believe about the breed...even though my dog might not be trained to do some of those things or have the temperament that people believe the breed is supposed to have.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Maybe you just need to expand on your idea of others' expectations? It's not simply bitework vs indoor lounging, lol. The actual specifics of the GSD: a respecter of territorial boundaries, a guarder, a self-thinking animal, aloof yet also sociable - you're not going to find that anywhere else, and you'll be sorely disappointed if you think just any dog will do, once you've been spoiled by GSDs.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Actually, what does it matter if you don't use it in its traditional venue. A lot of people want a loving, PROTECTIVE, family pet. The German Shepherd was bred to be naturally protective (even if we're just talking alerting) ... isn't that fulfilling one of its primary jobs? Protection of its family? Wasn't that what the herders wanted and not just a mover of sheep?

I'm sorry, but I'm picky. I don't have the time and space for several dogs. I'm lucky I browbeat my husband into the second one (my GSD). I want what I want, EXACTLY what I want. A mix won't cut it because it won't have all the characteristics I was looking for (and can get) from a purebred. This is my 5th GSD...yeah I know what I like and will not settle.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> Maybe you just need to expand on your idea of others' expectations? It's not simply bitework vs indoor lounging, lol. The actual specifics of the GSD: a respecter of territorial boundaries, a guarder, a self-thinking animal, aloof yet also sociable - you're not going to find that anywhere else, and you'll be sorely disappointed if you think just any dog will do, once you've been spoiled by GSDs.


I think you can find that other places. And again...it will lead you to a purebred dog lol. So that's where my argument probably falls apart. But a lot of those things are probably easily found in many herding breeds or even livestock guardians.

I've actually been telling myself that at one point, when other life things get in the way (family/kids/work) I'll probably end up not doing bite sports and therefore not really need a GSD...but who am I kidding...the chances of me getting a mixed breed are very small after owning a GSD...because like you've said, it's going to be hard to find a dog that can live up to the expectations that a GSD has set. I think at that point I will be rescuing or hoping for another breeder return lol...but in all technicality my "need" from a dog will be able to be met by most any dog.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Actually I doubt I would own another dog other then gsd. I am not planning on being a pet home next time but I am a pet home now

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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Galathiel said:


> Actually, what does it matter if you don't use it in its traditional venue. A lot of people want a loving, PROTECTIVE, family pet. The German Shepherd was bred to be naturally protective (even if we're just talking alerting) ... isn't that fulfilling one of its primary jobs? Protection of its family? Wasn't that what the herders wanted and not just a mover of sheep?


I'm not arguing with that fact...but have you met other dogs that are protective? Dogs that alert and bark at a person that comes up the driveway. Even when that breed might not be known for that, or it might even be a mutt. My in-laws westie barks at the door anytime someone is there. I was just at a trial where the people had labs on the premises which would bark at anyone that pulled up the driveway. There are also plenty of GSDs that wouldn't bark and would allow anyone into their home. So when you're buying a puppy...you have to consider the fact that your dog might not grow up to be the SV or AKC definition of the breed.

My thinking is that the GSD isn't the ONLY breed out there that can accomplish what is needed from a dog in your "average family."


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm sure I'll end up adopting seniors at some point, when my own future looks relatively brief, lol - but honestly, I don't believe that there's another breed that can hold a candle to the GSD. Martemchik, if you do end up with another breed/mix, I know you'll still love that dog, but I'll put money that the following one will have you going back to the GSD


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Do you purposely skip parts of what I write? Or is it just an issue with comprehension?


Dunno. Could be a comprehension problem. I quoted the specific area of your comment that I wanted to comment on. Is that hard for you to comprehend? I can try to make it easier for you to understand, if you'd like. I'm helpful that way.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Here's the thing...most people won't admit it (I will). When you buy a purebred, without the intent to use it for what it was bred to do, you're basing your decision mostly on the LOOK of the dog and the reputation that breed has.


I call BS on this one. That may be why you buy a dog. It's not the way I choose a dog. 

The average pet owner gets a dog because that is what is convenient... They are selling it out in front of the Walmart in the paper or craigslist. 

My first shepherd/akita came when I was 20 years old and we just bought our first house. My husband said lets go get a puppy. Guess what she was the absolutely first puppy listed in the paper that day. It had nothing to do with her breed. We went looked and said oh cute and that was it. After that we continued to get Shepherds because she was outstanding. I've still to this day never had a better dog. 

Most people I talk to tell me they got their shepherd because they knew someone who had one growing up or they had one growing up. I would venture to say it has nothing to do with the looks of the GSD and everything to do with their larger than life personalities. I have had many dogs over the years and not one of them has had as much personality and intelligence as the GSD.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

So if there are multiple breeds (still talking purebreds here so apparently rescue is STILL off the table) that will fulfill that role, why in the world wouldn't you pick the one then that is aesthetically pleasing to you, taking everything else into account? A Rottweiler won't do for me .. don't like them or dogs similar to them. I like a GSD's personality, looks and brain. They are distinct and unique *shrug* . I've had a GSD since I was 10 years old .. and that's a lonnng time ago now. I like everything about them, even if they are never 'fulfilled' by participating in the sport scene (which is NOT work .. it's play) ... they don't know that. They are perfectly happy in their role with a caring, knowledgeable family.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> Most people I talk to tell me they got their shepherd because they knew someone who had one growing up or they had one growing up. I would venture to say it has nothing to do with the looks of the GSD and everything to do with their larger than life personalities. I have had many dogs over the years and not one of them has had as much personality and intelligence as the GSD.


Isn't that the same thing I wrote about? The perception of the breed? You were young, you met one, you perceived the WHOLE breed to be like that single dog. Same thing with anyone that just looks up the Wikipedia definition of a few breeds, and then goes with what is said on there.

If someone is looking for a particular breed of dog...they're usually doing it because they have some sort of perception of how this dog should act. Be it an actual dog they've met, online research, or just the common "societal" knowledge about the particular breed...be it true or not. Therefore it has EVERYTHING to do with how a dog looks (basically the only way your average person can tell breeds apart is looks) and equating that a dog that looks like the dog you knew 20 years ago, will act just like the dog you knew 20 years ago.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Galathiel said:


> So if there are multiple breeds (still talking purebreds here so apparently rescue is STILL off the table) that will fulfill that role, why in the world wouldn't you pick the one then that is aesthetically pleasing to you, taking everything else into account? A Rottweiler won't do for me .. don't like them or dogs similar to them. I like a GSD's personality, looks and brain. They are distinct and unique *shrug* . I've had a GSD since I was 10 years old .. and that's a lonnng time ago now. I like everything about them, even if they are never 'fulfilled' by participating in the sport scene (which is NOT work .. it's play) ... they don't know that. They are perfectly happy in their role with a caring, knowledgeable family.


Or...you can think about the fact that I'm sure there is a mixed breed rescue that can fulfill that role...and is actually more likely to fulfill that role because you'll be able to test the dog and see what its temperament is like rather than risking it on a puppy that can turn out a million different ways. To think that the characteristics we all value in our GSDs...don't exist in other breeds or even mixed breeds is kind of small minded.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

In one sense I agree with you - you'll certainly find individual characteristics, but only in _individual_ breeds. Please show me another breed that has ALL the characteristics of a GSD rolled into the same package.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> In one sense I agree with you - you'll certainly find individual characteristics, but only in _individual_ breeds. Please show me another breed that has ALL the characteristics of a GSD rolled into the same package.


100% agree...but that goes back to my original point. How many of us (myself included) NEED (in the most basic/Webster dictionary of the word) all those characteristics to be present in a companion?

And on top of that...how many of us can say our current GSD has all those characteristics? Are they all by the book definitions of the breed? If so...which book are we talking about? And who's judging if those characteristics truly are present in the dog?

If you look at a 3 year old dog...foster for a while...you'll be able to have a much more complete picture of that dog's temperament than reading a pedigree of a potential puppy.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Well, I've had 2 GSDs come to me as adults with unknown backgrounds, 1 BYB puppy, and now this current SL guy - and I can say without a doubt that they're obviously all the same model. Not all _exactly_ the same, for sure, but you couldn't ever mistake them (personality wise) for labs or pyrs or BCs or bulldogs or any other mixes I've ever known - which all happen to be dogs that I'm not personally interested in, since they don't suit _my_ personality and they wouldn't fit so perfectly well with my lifestyle.


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

I donn't know if anyone's saying they need this or need that. In all my experience with GSDs (raising seven, puppy sitting for many more, and attending exclusively GSD classes which summed to meeting and getting to know hundreds of dogs over the years), they have been fairly consistent. 

I'm not saying it's impossible to get that from any other breed, mix, mutt, whatever you happen to get. But stereo/breed types exist for a reason, and in my case at least I would go back to the GSD because they have proven themselves as a breed to me. That many dogs being consistent to each other and the breed are not a random occurrence.

You can foster a younger or older dog from a shelter, maybe it won't work out, but maybe they will be amazing! We had a mix that was wonderful and protective, no German Shepherd in her, and so did my parents. 
But I go with the GSD because the chances of consistency of character and traits has been proven with hundreds of dogs before my very eyes. If you round up hundreds of shelter dogs and compare them to each other, the consistency in traits etc. is going to be less.

I think people tend to lean towards getting something they know and are familiar with, rather than take a higher chance of who knows what, even though it could be completely fine or great. Not all GSDs are the same, but the likelihood in my opinion and experience is pretty high. I guess I don't see why deviate if you know exactly what you want, and have a 97% (arbitrarily picked percent) chance of getting it with your breed.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Oh I may be small-minded, but I'm not alone.  I guess I SHOULD be faulted in knowing exactly what I want and KNOWING that I, personally, would not be happy with a mix, when I want a GSD. *shrug* sue me. Like I've said, I'm on my 5th ... I don't think there is any other breed or mix that I would be happy with, and wouldn't that be unfair to the random dog I got instead of what I actually want?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Galathiel said:


> Oh I may be small-minded, but I'm not alone.  I guess I SHOULD be faulted in knowing exactly what I want and KNOWING that I, personally, would not be happy with a mix, when I want a GSD. *shrug* sue me. Like I've said, I'm on my 5th ... I don't think there is any other breed or mix that I would be happy with, and wouldn't that be unfair to the random dog I got instead of what I actually want?


:thumbup:


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yeah, I'm not losing any sleep over it either. Being called small minded by a fellow GSD lover, or by being called an elitist by my own family. So be it


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> Yeah, I'm not losing any sleep over it either. Being called small minded by a fellow GSD lover, or by being called an elitist by my own family. So be it


Just hope you never get called a small minded elitist! If that happens I'm sure there is a rule somewhere that says you'll have to give away any GSDs you have and then you're not allowed to have any more. It's a rule. Someone said it on a forum.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Just hope you never get called a small minded elitist! If that happens I'm sure there is a rule somewhere that says you'll have to give away any GSDs you have and then you're not allowed to have any more. It's a rule. Someone said it on a forum.


To be polite, I say please do not preach to me and STFU. Pretty much ends the need to debate the topic.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Evidently, I _am_ a small minded elitist! But the good news is, nobody wants my GSD because he's a SL  Bwaahaahaa!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Meh, never called anyone small minded. Just said that its small minded thinking. But whatever, anytime you have a theoretical discussion on here, there's always a group that turns it personal. As if I'm referring to a single person thinking that way. I even agreed that the chances of getting a GSD type temperament in a mix is unlikely, but its not unimaginable that there is a dog out there somewhere that has it.

Some people just have a problem anytime someone even infers that something they do isn't perfect. OR seeing their statement/opinion somewhere near a negative adjective.

Trust me, if I wanted to call someone a name, I'd put their sn out in front of it and call them the name.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Athena'sMom said:


> I stopped rescuing adult dogs a few years back after I rescued a boxer/mastiff. I took Apple to obedience school, worked to rehab her but Apple was not safe with being around children. She was excellent with my kids but became dangerously protective to the point she put my kids and their friends in danger. I sought a behaviorist advice and it was her opinion Apple would NEVER be safe around kids.





martemchik said:


> I don't condemn anyone for going to a breeder, and I don't care that most of the people on here have their dogs as companions. All I'm saying is that when you do think about it on a deeper level...any dog is capable of being the companion the majority of this forum needs.


No, not ANY dog. Read the quote above.



> A LOT of people buy purebred dogs for status. People love going around talking about how the sire or dam of their dog is an AKC champion or a Sieger. People also love bragging about how the sire or dam has IPO titles even when they have no idea what any of those things are.


 Yes, a lot of people do that. I see it in all breeds, but to tell you the truth, the biggest snobs I've seen lately are the Labradoodle, Goldendoodle, or other "designer" breed people. They paid $2500 for a MUTT, but by God, they are going to tell everyone how great this non-shedding, hypoallergenic, low-maintenance breed is. Too bad they've been lied to by unscrupulous breeders and they can't figure out why the dog is shedding and matting and looking more like a Komondor than anything else, and why the kids are sneezing every time the dog comes near.



> And the fact that people are just looking for a "family pet" out of a GSD is a large part of why we have all these "family pet" breeders that aren't breeding to the standard anymore.


 That's not the fault of the GSD, or the people who want a "family pet". It's the unscrupulous breeders who allow themselves to be swayed by what sells. There have always been unethical people in every profession and every walk of life, and breeders are no exception. There have always been far more BYBs than there are reputable breeders.



martemchik said:


> Again...my whole point was that in reality, many people just don't need a purebred dog of any kind. Purebreds were bred in order to do some sort of job using their natural instincts. At the end of the day, if you don't need your dog for that job, any dog will do. It's just simple logic. I don't care that people still buy purebreds, like I said, I'll still help every single one of them and I'll still be their friend, you'll never hear from me that someone made the "wrong decision" by purchasing that dog. I'm just saying that if someone wanted a GSD to be their loyal bird hunting dog...we'd turn them in a different direction...why is it that hard to turn someone towards a shelter dog if all they want is a companion?


I see what you're saying, and to some extent I agree, but read the first quote in this post again.

Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but when I want a dog with a reasonably predictable set of traits, I look at purebreds from reputable, ethical breeders. With shelter dogs, mixed breeds, and purebreds of unknown origin, you just don't know what you're getting. You can try to avoid that by adopting an older dog whose size, appearance, temperament, and energy level is already known, but there may still be things lurking in the shadows that you won't know about until it's too late. 

Still, if a family is looking for a dog and any old dog will do, I always recommend shelter/rescue first. I also recommend that they have some kind of assessment done, either from the rescue, or if the shelter doesn't have the resources to do temperament assessment, have a trainer or behaviorist look at the dog first.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Come on now...we can all name off a situation that wasn't the general case. In that case it was a crazy rescue dog...and in 100s of others that are documented on this forum that are in the same boat with purebred GSDs. Including ones that *gasp* come from reputable breeders. Stuff happens...and dogs don't work out. But you can't use ONE example as the rule when we all know that there are way more success stories than failures. The MAJORITY of dogs out there right now are mutts and are living perfectly great lives with little to no temperamental issues.

And the part about purebred for status…that’s why I included all purebred dogs. Absolutely everyone gets all dogs for those reasons. My favorite ones when it comes to labradoodles are those that love to tell people that theirs are the “first generation” because they’re more sought after for some reason. I don’t think there’s anything “wrong” with it. It’s just the truth about our society. We get things because we want people to think something about us. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with admitting that. I’m also not afraid to admit that most any breed could provide me with the companionship that my two GSDs provide me.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Snapdragon said:


> So I've got a question, it's just something I'm curious about. The way I see it, rescue is great. I'm not denying that great rescue dogs are just as possible as great purebreds, and that sometimes buying from a breeder doesn't turn out all too great. But I personally want to know what lineage my dog has to prevent bad genes that will run up my vet bills later, and I want to raise that dog myself so I know he hasn't had some wacky past that ruined him which I only find out later.
> 
> When I told a friend about the litter I'm waiting for is coming later in the year, and how another one of similar parentage won't be coming until next summer, she said "well but if they're a breeder, aren't they having puppies constantly?" in a kind of derogatory way. I said that good breeders don't crank them out like puppy mills, and only do a few litters a year.
> 
> ...


Why do you feel the need to explain yourself as long as you know what you're doing is the right thing? Who's to say they would understand your reasoning anyways? You know what your doing and why and really, that all that matters.

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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> . We get things because we want people to think something about us. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with admitting that. I’m also not afraid to admit that most any breed could provide me with the companionship that my two GSDs provide me.


 
No, I've never gotten a specific animal so that other people will think a specific way about me. Never. 

I currently have 5 dogs of differnt breeds. Each a purbred. My GSD makes a much better companion than any of the other dogs. Totally different.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Come on now...we can all name off a situation that wasn't the general case. In that case it was a crazy rescue dog...and in 100s of others that are documented on this forum that are in the same boat with purebred GSDs. Including ones that *gasp* come from reputable breeders. Stuff happens...and dogs don't work out. But you can't use ONE example as the rule when we all know that there are way more success stories than failures. The MAJORITY of dogs out there right now are mutts and are living perfectly great lives with little to no temperamental issues.


 Which is why I always recommend shelter/rescue for most people wanting a family dog.

For me personally, I like a bit more predictability. That's why I choose purebreds from ethical breeders. And so do a lot of other folks. For me, it has nothing to do with status. I don't think that *most* people get a dog as a status symbol. Those types are definitely out there, but I don't think it's the #1 reason that dogs are bought. For most people who choose purebreds, it's based on either physical appearance, or temperament traits. Many people have fond memories of the purebred they had growing up, and they want another one based on those memories. Sometimes that works out, sometimes it doesn't.

I see dogs of all ilk all day, every day. Purebreds and mixed. I could name several examples of crazy rescue dogs, as well as crazy purebreds. Unfortunately, most of the purebreds I see are from BYBs, so they're not good examples of their breed.


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## shantinath1000 (Mar 18, 2014)

I think the best would be to ask yourself why you feel the need to justify your choice. The short answer is, you don't need to justify your choice. My wife and I had a rescue GSD before (great dog) and one from a breeder now. I have found that the following questions often can put a pause and lead to some thought on the part of the people who are against breeders. Do they have kids? If so did they adopt them? Why have kids when there are so many kids that need adoption?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lilie said:


> No, I've never gotten a specific animal so that other people will think a specific way about me. Never.
> 
> I currently have 5 dogs of differnt breeds. Each a purbred. My GSD makes a much better companion than any of the other dogs. Totally different.


Why do you keep answering as if I'm talking about you? Do you think you're the majority? Do you think any of us are in the majority of pet owners? Come on!

Just because YOU don't do something for a certain reason, doesn't mean that most people don't have a different reason. The majority of us on this forum don't do things like the average pet owner, that's just a fact you'll have to accept.

If you've never felt that added amount of respect for walking down the street with a GSD...I can't explain it to you. But there are very few breeds out there that get the kind of respect a GSD gets...and it's basically only because they're known as K9s, military dogs, guard dogs, ect. It has nothing to do with THAT particular dog, it has everything to do with society's perception of our breed. Most of the GSD people I know, are very proud of the fact that their dogs are the same breed as those high level working dogs, and it’s definitely a minor reason of why they got the dog. Those other dogs have given our breed the reputation and respect it deserves…and that’s what most people know of the GSD. And of course, when a lot of people start deciding on what dog to get…a GSD will come to mind, if only because of those minor experiences with a K9 or maybe even watching a Rin Tin Tin movie. Lots of people equate the fact that because a dog looks like another one…it will act just like another one which isn’t 100% false but we all know that it’s also not 100% accurate.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Freestep said:


> For me personally, I like a bit more predictability. That's why I choose purebreds from ethical breeders. And so do a lot of other folks. For me, it has nothing to do with status. I don't think that *most* people get a dog as a status symbol. Those types are definitely out there, but I don't think it's the #1 reason that dogs are bought. For most people who choose purebreds, it's based on either physical appearance, or temperament traits. Many people have fond memories of the purebred they had growing up, and they want another one based on those memories. Sometimes that works out, sometimes it doesn't.


I’m just making the connection that the way a dog looks (its breed) is automatically a status symbol. I think many people buy purebred for status do it subconsciously. You might not think its status…but it kind of is. Maybe status is the wrong word for it…but it’s like, the fact that a GSD sits in your house makes it less likely to get robbed over a chihuahua’s house. That’s a level of status/respect. Other people (especially dog people) understand that owning a powerful breed such as this one is much more difficult than some other more “pet friendly” breeds…or something smaller. There’s just a different level of responsibility that comes along with it. Maybe a better way of putting it is that even if its not your main reason for buying that breed...you automatically get the status in society that comes with it.

I just bought a 5 series BMW wagon. I bought it because it’s a very utilitarian car for my situation and is extremely useful. On top of that, very few car makers out there make large wagons. It’s mostly the European brands, and even then your choices are limited. So the car is of course practical…but I would be lying if I didn’t say I love the fact that it’s a BMW and an automatic status symbol in our society.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its when emotion overcomes logic ...


 I notice that a lot in about half of the population.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

These days no one needs a purebred anything or a dog, for that matter. Except maybe farmers, cops and disabled people. I'm sure I missed a few categories. 
Sport is a hobby and hobby doesn't equal a need. My hobby is having a Shepherd and enjoying learning all about him. It might roll over into doing sport (another hobby) and it might not. 

Why is it that people must feel like others don't need a breed and they do? Also a way to feel better than someone else since we are into analyzing psychology. 

These days dogs are a hobby for 99% of people. Almost no one truly works their dogs, works as in 'needing dogs to survive'. 

As far as status. I bought my dog from a puppy mill masking as a farm for $300 and I gladly tell anyone that asks. People go to bybs because they don't understand spending 2k for a dog. Some later change their mind, some don't. 
They don't do it so that people will think they have a 2k dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Oh yeah, forgot about rescues. I would've rescued a Shepherd if they didn't come neutered or with a neutering clause and their application left me a hope of being approved


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Did von Stephanitz really


> _need_


 a German Shepherd?


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

shantinath1000 said:


> I have found that the following questions often can put a pause and lead to some thought on the part of the people who are against breeders. Do they have kids? If so did they adopt them? Why have kids when there are so many kids that need adoption?


I love it! And when it comes down to it, most of us don't really NEED children, do we? The world's population is (debatably) too high already, so why have your own children? Why not adopt? :laugh:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

McWeagle said:


> I love it! And when it comes down to it, most of us don't really NEED children, do we? The world's population is (debatably) too high already, so why have your own children? Why not adopt? :laugh:


Because we are all so breed worthy.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

Hahaha, play nice now!


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

here's what i say. i say what's important is not whether you rescue or buy a dog. what's important is that every single person who gets a dog, gives the dog they get a good and safe home, and that they make a commitment to care for the dog for the entirety of his/her lifetime.

there will always be breeders (with varying degrees of ethics). there will always (for the forseeable future anyway), be rescues.

what's important is that as many dogs (and kitties), as possible get good, safe, lifetime homes.

jmho.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

You're absolutely right, Katieliz! If more people did that, and were responsible for their dogs & cats (ie keep animals in heat confined), we soon wouldn't need nearly as many rescues.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> *Just because YOU don't do something for a certain reason, doesn't mean that most people don't have a different* *reason.* The majority of us on this forum don't do things like the average pet owner, that's just a fact you'll have to accept.


Exactly!!!! Yet you continue to make statements that attempt to include the entire GSD community because of something YOU do or someway YOU feel!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

katieliz said:


> here's what i say. i say what's important is not whether you rescue or buy a dog. what's important is that every single person who gets a dog, gives the dog they get a good and safe home, and that they make a commitment to care for the dog for the entirety of his/her lifetime.
> 
> there will always be breeders (with varying degrees of ethics). there will always (for the forseeable future anyway), be rescues.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

I didn't read through this whole thread. But I was one of those people condemning those that purchased dogs from breeders. I thought rescuing was the way to go and to a point I still do. As the end of the day it's truly a crap shoot when you decide to add a dog to your family.

However that being said when you decide rescue you are accepting 1000000 unknowns. When you decide on a breeder you can kind of load the gun in your favor. 

But people still have well bred dogs with behavioral problems while others get one rescue after another with zero issues...

And I have to say there are rescue communities that brain wash you. Make you feel that purchasing a dog it's literally condemning another dog to death. Well here is my perspective. The good breeders, the ones that take time to place their puppies in specific homes and are interested in how they turn out, their puppies are not the ones flooding the shelters. These puppies go back to the breeder if it doesn't work out with the family.

I have learned after much research that as with anything there's the good, the bad, and the ugly to any situation. 

My first rescue experience was awful. I didn't know it until later on but the rescue I got my first dog from was a dog hoarder with cages of dogs stored in his basement. They did not get out enough. They did not get proper medical treatment and if they didn't get out of there fast enough they generally died some tragic form of death. 

And my Avery, whom I love more than words can describe, had some genetic fear issues that I wouldn't wish on any dog. {and he was not one of the basement dogs}...




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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

lauren43, thanks for sharing your experience and your viewpoint, which is pretty much exactly the reality of the situation.

finding a knowledgeable, reputable, ethical breeder...in the hands of the novice owner...sigh...pretty hard. so much misinformation out there.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

*"When I told another friend I was getting a puppy, she asked if I was getting a rescue, and when I said a breeder, she made a horrified, scandalized face at me."*

That's what great about opinions and beliefs....you cited her as a "friend" and even though there might be a differing of opinions...the "friends" should still remain intact.

I look at it this way....short term as well as long term. A puppy is born, it will end up somewhere..doesn't matter if it's from a breeder or a shelter...the dog's fate is mostly in the hands of the human. If the human is lacking and the dog ends up in the shelter..well....the shelters have more dogs to be rescued. the onus is on the owner..not a breeder or a shelter. I would submit...if all owners were of conscience and proceeded properly with the dog, the shelters would be drastically "understocked". So, whether one rescues a dog versus buying from a breeder, if the human dutifully fulfills their responsibility...the dog's fate is all the same. I understand at times there are extenuating circumstances but I think you get my drift.

I most likely could "rescue" a dog ( talk is cheap ) because I love all dogs...but I have never have....and to those that do...I believe there is a common trait shared...for the love of a dog....and with that, friends should remain friends.


SuperG


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Alot of rescues work hard at convincing people to adopt not shop and that is great, but some cross the line by calling all breeders monsters. I would encourage my parents to adopt, they are older and seeking out an older dog who is house trained and pre vetted would be ideal but if they buy from a breeder then that is their choice.
I have dealt with many rescues that have thrown the memes out about breeders being terrible and the infamous "so you are going to buy a puppy, which one of these shelter dogs would you like to kill first" poster, its disgusting but its becoming more and more impossible to stay outta peoples business these days, with social media and this kookie idea that you can just blurt out and criticize everything someone does. Its sad. It is the choice of the person who will home a dog forever to choose were they get the dog. 

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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I’m just making the connection that the way a dog looks (its breed) is automatically a status symbol. I think many people buy purebred for status do it subconsciously. You might not think its status…but it kind of is. Maybe status is the wrong word for it…but it’s like, the fact that a GSD sits in your house makes it less likely to get robbed over a chihuahua’s house. That’s a level of status/respect. Other people (especially dog people) understand that owning a powerful breed such as this one is much more difficult than some other more “pet friendly” breeds…or something smaller. There’s just a different level of responsibility that comes along with it. Maybe a better way of putting it is that even if its not your main reason for buying that breed...you automatically get the status in society that comes with it.
> 
> I just bought a 5 series BMW wagon. I bought it because it’s a very utilitarian car for my situation and is extremely useful. On top of that, very few car makers out there make large wagons. It’s mostly the European brands, and even then your choices are limited. So the car is of course practical…but I would be lying if I didn’t say I love the fact that it’s a BMW and an automatic status symbol in our society.


I have to agree with some of your ideology, and yes I'm sure there are some who get certain dogs as status symbols but I never looked at a GSD as a status symbol. I agree that I think most people buying any GSD's are probably into this breed with a misconception that all GSD's are guard or protection dogs and buy one to protect what they have. To me whether or not the dog will protect anyone or anything is still a "reason" other than a status symbol for buying a GSD.

I also agree, some people don't "need" a dog like this nor can handle a dog like this. But then again, people don't need to do a dog sport or other activities either, but they do because they enjoy them. Same for a breed of dog. Some people enjoy certain breeds for their differences whatever that may be, mostly looks really. You have to admit, GSD's are handsome dogs. If dog breeds were so close and intertwined, there just wouldn't be that many breeds. GSD's make good companions on top of all the other attributes. Your not going to get the same thought or feel of protection and yet a companion out of a Begal hound, but you will get a great rabbit dog. Same thing with a mutt dog. But I feel most people go into buying a GSD out of the mindset of protection, "guard dog".


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Not sure if it's the same elsewhere, but while looking into GSD rescues a couple years ago, every one was either not good with kids or good with children over 12. Guessing this had more to do with liability than the actual temperament of those dogs.


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## 45yearsofGSDs (Sep 19, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> I didn't read through this whole thread. But I was one of those people condemning those that purchased dogs from breeders. I thought rescuing was the way to go and to a point I still do. As the end of the day it's truly a crap shoot when you decide to add a dog to your family.
> 
> However that being said when you decide rescue you are accepting 1000000 unknowns. When you decide on a breeder you can kind of load the gun in your favor.
> 
> ...


EXCELLENT POST!!! I think the problem, at least partially, stems from the fact that many, if not most breeders are portrayed more as puppy mills and they are sold and shipped out like mass produced cars. I have been fortunate with my rescues, as all have been through owning them for 45 years as well as all of my felines. The people I have known that were breeders, were all very careful who they placed their puppies with and had an extensive list of requirements for ownership.

Now, having said all that, my particular preference has always been to adopt. Generally because the dogs are usually done puppyhood and can be retrained to unlearn bad habits. But as far as companionship/guard & protection dogs, they've all been predictable, loyal and easily trained. Just my very humble opinioneace::gsdhead::gsdhead:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

SuperG said:


> *"When I told another friend I was getting a puppy, she asked if I was getting a rescue, and when I said a breeder, she made a horrified, scandalized face at me."*
> 
> That's what great about opinions and beliefs....you cited her as a "friend" and even though there might be a differing of opinions...the "friends" should still remain intact.
> 
> ...


 

Super Good , SuperG !


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

katieliz said:


> here's what i say. i say what's important is not whether you rescue or buy a dog. what's important is that every single person who gets a dog, gives the dog they get a good and safe home, and that they make a commitment to care for the dog for the entirety of his/her lifetime.
> 
> there will always be breeders (with varying degrees of ethics). there will always (for the forseeable future anyway), be rescues.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Katieliz. That's the bottom line.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Funny I had an "opposite" expression of opinion from a life long friend. She had purchased a Yorkie from a breeder. (Yeah I know but it as cute and I kinda loved the hair clip on the top of the Yorkies head!:blush: The dog didn't!

Anyway unsolicited she 'apologized' for spending so much money on a dog to me??? I thought nothing of it myself. But I later realized that they have had rescues for the last 35 years, so for them dropping big bucks on a dog was a big deal!

For me my first dog was a Band dogge, I wanted a BullMastiff/APBT mix and I was not going to wait forever for one to show up. So I purchased one from a BYB,

Then I lost a Boxer/Pitt (Rescue) mix in an accident and wanted another but could not find one so I got a PB Boxer from a breeder.

Then we got Rocky (GSD) failed foster parent, never looked at GSD but he has turned into a great dog (Not without challenges) but I'm sold on the breed!

Never would have experienced a GSD had I been "hard core" on Breeder dogs. So my record for the four dogs I have owned is 50/50!

Next dog don't know where it will come from rescue or breeder? I only know that I want another Boxer. Don't really care where she comes from myself.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

For those of you who are “disgusted” by shelter/rescue opinions of breeders, I think you need to take a moment to understand how they may have arrived at that opinion. 

And, just for the record, I do think there is such a thing as a reputable, ethical breeder. But, I don’t think they represent the majority of breeders out there.

So, what do people in rescue/shelter experience all the time… they experience being asked to step in to take in dogs from breeders who have kept their dogs in horrible living situations. They also take in dogs from municipal shelters or direct owner surrender where the breeder is known via intake info or microchip data… and yet, when the rescue/shelter contacts the breeder, the breeder has - more often than not - a sob story about how they cannot take back the dog. *So, yes, the slice of the breeding world the shelter/rescue world sees everyday is not pretty. *

I think folks in all-breed rescue/shelter rescues are realists. 

They understand that the vast majority of dogs produced every year in this country are not coming from reputable or ethical breeders. And, the vast majority of people purchasing dogs every year have no idea that there are any differences between breeders … these buyers see AKC (if even that) and they look no further – they probably believe that as long as it is a AKC dog, it will auto-magically conform to breed descriptions and whatever memories they have had of the breed. 

And, when the dog doesn’t perform as imagined… guess where a lot of these folks go to get rid of their dogs? That is the sad state of the matter. 

At the end of the day, I have to say that I agree with the sentiment of katieliz’s post. All dogs deserve lifelong homes regardless of where they come from.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Baillif said:


> If I had anything derogatory to say it would be to the rescues that keep pulling nervy fear bitey maladjusted disease bags from kill shelters and sinking god awful amounts of money into them so that they might have a Facebook feed feel good story instead of plucking the best of the best that could easily turn out to be great family home dogs.
> 
> Somewhere around 80-90% of dogs born every year don't survive long enough to see their first birthday. It's a triage situation. Pick the best and the brightest.
> 
> ...





Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its when emotion overcomes logic that the whole rescue thing turns sour for me. Unfortunately it happens too much. You have people that know nothing about training or evaluating the dog infront of them acting like they have a clue.. Merge that with a holier then thou attitude and it all falls apart.
> 
> They say the road to **** is paved with good intentions..I tend to believe that .


Yup....and......yup......


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

This. What Sparra quoted is why I tend to stay away from rescues. I admire their dedication and compassion to the dogs but sometimes they tend to go overboard when it is kinder to put the animals down in some cases. 

Also, I am particular on what type of dog I want so I would certainly feel better getting a pup from a reputable breeder with a known pedigree rather than adopt a rescue dog with no pedigree and not knowing the potential character traits and looks. I wouldn't mind getting a rescue cat, but for me that's entirely different from getting a rescue dog, particularly when I plan on taking that dog almost anywhere with me, and the cat would stay at home. So yeah, I just don't think I can take the risk.  But I do agree that I am a little embarrassed to say how much I spent for a pedigree dog from a breeder, I do not feel like boasting at all, nor that I feel that it makes my "status" any better either. I feel very embarrassed that I invested so much time and money into selecting a (hopefully) well bred dog rather than instantly going to the pet shop or a backyard breeder to pay a minimal price for the same breed like many of my friends do.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> All dogs deserve lifelong homes regardless of where they come from.


Could not agree more. Dogs don't ask to be born. Anything that is wrong with a dog is human error or negligence, then the dog pays the price. I don't care what it is. Society itself needs to be looked at.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

> Originally Posted by Baillif View Post
> If I had anything derogatory to say it would be to the rescues that keep pulling nervy fear bitey maladjusted disease bags from kill shelters and sinking god awful amounts of money into them so that they might have a Facebook feed feel good story instead of plucking the best of the best that could easily turn out to be great family home dogs.
> 
> Somewhere around 80-90% of dogs born every year don't survive long enough to see their first birthday. It's a triage situation. Pick the best and the brightest.
> ...






sparra said:


> Yup....and......yup......


I joined this thread to support the guy who was getting bashed for buying a dog from a breeder only to find even more bashing those of us who choose rescue dogs. How do you all think this makes those of us with rescue dogs feel? 

Cause what I'm getting here is my dogs shouldn't live because they are not the best and the brightest. My 7 year old who is missing her tale should have been put down because she was old and injured? Or maybe you think I should have put Ivan and my puppy down because they were scared? Oh and poor wiggles her only crime was to be an all black dog in a shelter full of other dogs. 

Just because you all want the best and the brightest doesn't mean that is what those of us with rescue dogs want. The dogs we choose are the ones we connect with and yes that's emotional so what? If I choose a dog that makes me feel good.... well duh! 

So now can we all go back to helping the OP without tearing down someone else?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I dunno Martemchik, maybe you are projecting here a little. Did you get your GSD because you wanted to rise to a certain status and owning a pure bred dog, did that for you? Does owning a formidable dog breed give you status, or did you buy the dog for that reason? Do you let your friends and acquaintances know how much your dog costs, or how much better it is than the other dogs around? And since you are working in IPO, I guess, are you now feeling that your kind of GSD has a right to be reproduced? But all the rest of the rabble out there, well, _they_ should really go to a shelter, because they really don't need the dog for any _real _purpose.

Just because that may be where you are coming from, does not mean that that is the way it is for everyone else. And if your friends act like that, well maybe it is because birds of a feather flock together. But of course people training in schutzhund/IPO might be very interested in who is who behind their dogs, and they probably think others are interested as well. The same is true within the show-people. It is not all about what a great dog is behind theirs, it is about what those great dogs carry forward onto their progeny, and how that might make a difference in working with/showing and training their dogs.

I work with and train with people that have purebred dogs of many varieties. Some are show people. Most are pet people. No one comes across as thought they got their dog for any sort of status. 

Martemchik, maybe what I wrote offends you. I hope it does. Because that is how you come across to a lot of the people who enjoy their purebred companions. 

All the reasons that people get a purebred for work/sport/show are true also for companion dogs: health, structural suitability, temperament, drives, character, and beauty. There are dogs in shelters that fit these for all but conformation show homes -- that is really the only venue you cannot participate in without a pedigree and all equipment present and accounted for. So, Martemchik, why not put your money where your mouth is, and go and get a shelter dog, instead of telling everyone else what _they _should do.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

opcorn: This just got good, real good.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Shepherdmom, why all the fuss? So what if someone else knows they don't want a ___ GSD? Better to face it head on, lol. We can still love and appreciate the 'imperfect' ones, nobody's saying we shouldn't.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Another point I forgot to make in favor of ethical breeders: 

When you purchase a dog from a good breeder, you have a support system for the life of the dog. If anything comes up in your life... you lose your home, death of a family member, any big life change that means you can no longer keep your dog, a good breeder will take the dog back. Even if something simply doesn't work out--the dog ends up being "too much" dog, kid develops allergies, or it just isn't a good fit, the breeder will take the dog back. You don't get that with shelter dogs or BYBs. You might get it with some of the better rescues, but you don't always know who is running the rescue at any given time, policies may change, the organization may go defunct, there may not be enough foster homes, it can be complicated and emotionally exhausting. And it's emotionally draining enough if you have to give up a pet.

When I purchase an animal from a good breeder, I know I'm not totally screwed if something happens and I can't keep the animal. It's nice to have a support system.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> I dunno Martemchik, maybe you are projecting here a little. Did you get your GSD because you wanted to rise to a certain status and owning a pure bred dog, did that for you? Does owning a formidable dog breed give you status, or did you buy the dog for that reason? Do you let your friends and acquaintances know how much your dog costs, or how much better it is than the other dogs around? And since you are working in IPO, I guess, are you now feeling that your kind of GSD has a right to be reproduced? But all the rest of the rabble out there, well, _they_ should really go to a shelter, because they really don't need the dog for any _real _purpose.
> 
> Just because that may be where you are coming from, does not mean that that is the way it is for everyone else. And if your friends act like that, well maybe it is because birds of a feather flock together. But of course people training in schutzhund/IPO might be very interested in who is who behind their dogs, and they probably think others are interested as well. The same is true within the show-people. It is not all about what a great dog is behind theirs, it is about what those great dogs carry forward onto their progeny, and how that might make a difference in working with/showing and training their dogs.
> 
> ...


GO BACK AND READ MY POSTS...I know you also sometimes have comprehension issues.

I never told ANYONE where they need to get a dog.

My point was...none of us truly NEED a purebred. So if you feel like calling me out that's fine. You probably read like 2 of the posts I made and decided to skip the rest.

Don't admit it, I don't care. The fact is. Owning a purebred dog, tells other people something about you. Same as owning a rescue or a mutt does. There are preconceptions that come with doing either one that society will automatically think of when they see the dog.

No one that buys a luxury vehicle will admit that "I bought this car because I want people to know I can spend $70000 on a car." But everyone that sees the car will know that the person is able to spend that much money on a vehicle and will make a judgment about that person.

Deny all you want that "keeping up with the jones" doesn't exist. It does.

Anyways. I don't feel like I need to answer a lot of the points you brought up, as most of them were answered in other posts that you chose to ignore. Like the one where I said that eventually I'll probably stop doing IPO and end up adopting/rescuing a dog. It will be tough to go away from a GSD, but it might happen.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*But think about dogs that save lives... SAR, Police k9, military dogs, bomb-sniffing dogs. Not to mention the dogs that make people's lives easier... guide dogs for the blind, assistance dogs for the disabled, etc. *
i havent read this whole thread but wanted to say that many shelters are overflowing with dogs that can do sar and bomb sniffing and drug detecting as well as assistance k9s
there are prisons that take dogs from shelters and train them to do the above things or at least assistance and services
all they need to be is stable and for sar and drug or bomb work have ball drive


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Another point I forgot to make in favor of ethical breeders:
> 
> When you purchase a dog from a good breeder, you have a support system for the life of the dog. If anything comes up in your life... you lose your home, death of a family member, any big life change that means you can no longer keep your dog, a good breeder will take the dog back. Even if something simply doesn't work out--the dog ends up being "too much" dog, kid develops allergies, or it just isn't a good fit, the breeder will take the dog back. You don't get that with shelter dogs or BYBs. You might get it with some of the better rescues, but you don't always know who is running the rescue at any given time, policies may change, the organization may go defunct, there may not be enough foster homes, it can be complicated and emotionally exhausting. And it's emotionally draining enough if you have to give up a pet.
> 
> When I purchase an animal from a good breeder, I know I'm not totally screwed if something happens and I can't keep the animal. It's nice to have a support system.


If you go to a good rescue, they also take the dogs back.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LifeofRiley said:


> For those of you who are “disgusted” by shelter/rescue opinions of breeders, I think you need to take a moment to understand how they may have arrived at that opinion.
> 
> And, just for the record, I do think there is such a thing as a reputable, ethical breeder. But, I don’t think they represent the majority of breeders out there.
> 
> ...


I have nothing against rescues in general, and I have encouraged people to check out shelters or rescues. But, I think the shelters and rescues are as responsible for whatever pet-overpopulation problems there are as breeders are.

Decades ago, when someone dumped a dog in a shelter, they knew what would happen to it. It would die, probably a pretty gruesome death. They used to electrocute them in Cleveland when I was a kid, and EVERYBODY knew it. People weren't dumping their dogs at shelters because they got a new carpet or furniture, because they wanted to go camping and didn't want to be bothered with the dog.

But now, a lady who dumped her dog at a shelter and changed her mind in the parking lot, only to find her dog already euthanized is shocked. And others are outraged. It made the crumby news it is so far out of the current thought. 

People nowadays believe that if you take Fluffy to a shelter, someone will come and rescue him, they will fix his health issues, they will foster him and train away his bad habits and quirks, they will be understanding of his aggression and will be able to manage him. They will take care of him and then find him a beautiful home where people will love him. 

The general opinion is that kill-shelters are barbaric, and no-kill should be the only thing out there. And children are being raised to believe that if Fluffy is a nuisance, we can drop him off and get another dog. 

It is the attitude of the general population that has caused whatever pet problems we are experiencing. Not the supply or the demand. In fact, shelters have been known to IMPORT puppies from other countries to supply the demand for puppies. And there again, people must be provided puppies. Shouldn't they be steered toward perfectly nice adolecent or adult dogs that are likely to be euthanized??? Really? But no, if the people cannot get a puppy from the shelter, then they will go to a breeder. They won't wait. We must have puppies for them. Let's import them from Puerto Rico and Mexico, and wherever else to supply the demand for puppies. 

And then there is the the idea that every dog ought to be saved. Sorry, but if someone turns in their 15 year old dog, it really sucks that the dog's family could have had him all that time, and at the end they dump him, but maybe the kind thing to do is to put the animal down with respect and without pain. If the dog has serious issues, or aggression issues, maybe putting the dog down will free up resources for the bajillions of perfectly perfect dogs in shelter (so they say) that are put down for lack of space. 

I don't think we can go back to a place where people expect the dog to be killed if they dump it at a shelter. But it makes about as much sense to blame the No-Kill shelters and Rescues for the problems as it does to blame breeders. I think that both breeders and the shelter/rescue communities have to stop pointing their fingers at the other group, thinking "if only THEY would do such and so..." and instead, think, what can I do. What can WE do to improve the current state of affairs.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

This thread is exposing our own basic natures, lol. I know for myself, when I see someone driving an expensive vehicle, I'm not oohing and aahing over it one bit - I'm snickering behind my hand, thinking about those dreadful payments the owner is locked into, and thinking about much better investments that they could have made. To each their own 

I don't need a _purebred_ dog, I just need one that has all the characteristics of a GSD. How handy, to have a breed that has these traits! Anyone who denies that different breeds bring different things to the table doesn't know dogs very well.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Why do people take this so personally? I didn’t see anyone blaming anyone in this thread. But of course, one amazing breeder has to defend the whole group because for some reason they thought people were blaming breeders for the pet overpopulation problem. I don’t think there is a single person on this forum that would blame breeders for the problem, they wouldn’t even put 100% of the blame on BYB or any of the other derogatory terms we throw around about any breeder that doesn’t live up to the standards this forum has set.

I threw out one idea, that might slightly lessen the issue. Decrease the problem by an insignificant percentage. My idea was more that if people do go to shelters, instead of running to the newspaper or to craigslist looking for that lovely purebred they remember from their one encounter 40 years ago, it might even reduce the hated BYB or whatever else there is out there who shouldn’t be bought from. It will never happen, it’s a farfetched idea, but for some reason, people think it will occur tomorrow and then the greatest of all breeders will be put out of business and our great breed will die off in a generation.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Martemchik, I disagree. I think that the easier it is to adopt a dog, the easier it is for people to dump theirs - so neglecting to monitor intact dogs, or enjoying the puppies they produce, has zero repercussions. The great revolving door of dog ownership.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> No one that buys a luxury vehicle will admit that "I bought this car because I want people to know I can spend $70000 on a car." But everyone that sees the car will know that the person is able to spend that much money on a vehicle and will make a judgment about that person.


I have a very expensive vehicle. Spent a horrendous amount of money on it. I sweat every month when I make a payment. But it had NOTHING do do with what I hope OTHER people think when they see me driving down the road in it. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that it can pull and stop my 3 horse slant load trailer. And the fact that it can pull a trailer with our John Deere tractor with the front end loader on front and a brush hog on the back through the pasture without getting stuck. But if we DO get stuck, we have 4 wheel drive to get us out. And it can pull a full trailer load of hay. And it can pull a trailer with an UTV and dog boxes on it. And I can travel over 800 miles one way to visit my folks without having to worry about breaking down when I'm on my own. 

Tell me...where are these folks you speak about that have no lives at all and judge folks on what they drive and the dogs they own? Where are these folks? What does it mean that I have two feral cats? What status does that give me? Oh...and I walk to the mail box in my PJ's at night. What does that mean? Oh yea, and sometimes, late at night when nobody else is home, I'll turn the music up real loud and dance with my dogs! What status does that give me? Should I leave the blinds open when I do that?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The fact is, the anecdotes that baliff posted, and the ones that selzer talked about, are small percentages of what actually happens. Those are just the ones that make the news and we all hear about. The majority is quite successful, and most rescues pull decent/level headed dogs that are easier to adopt out. Sometimes you get one that will pull the bad case, try to fix it, and if it works out great, it’s a great publicity stunt for the rescue/shelter. If it fails, it’s a terrible publicity stunt and the whole thing gets questioned. Five days later, no one even remembers it happened. It’s the risk these rescues take when they pull a dog like that, they know what they’re getting into, trust me, those people are smart enough to weight the risks with the rewards.

We all read the “rescue turned me down, what idiots” threads on this forum. We get a few a month. So we all start thinking that the whole rescue community is terrible. Well no…we just don’t get people making posts that say, “I just got approved to adopt a rescue.” Why? Because happy stories aren’t as fun, and they sound conceited. Just look at the amount of threads and responses to the threads in the “braggs” section. People generally don’t like to do that. They’d rather complain about things, those threads are much more fun…just human nature. It’s why one bad product review online carries more weight than 10 good ones. It’s why we’re not allowed to talk bad about breeders on this forum, but we can scream from the mountain tops about how great one is.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think you've got it wrong about making derogatory comments about breeders. IMO, we can't say bad stuff because it's unfair to them to criticize them when they're not here to defend themselves. Wow, that would be a tremendous amount of locked threads too, lol. But take my pup as an example: I could bellyache about how he has a food intolerance, how he has seasonal allergies, boo hoo hoo my breeder sucks. But the only other dog to her knowledge that has allergies is the sire's brother, and all the other puppies from that litter are fine. Huh, maybe it's just _life_ that my guy isn't 100% perfect? Fine by me, I'm not either, lol.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I have a very expensive vehicle. Spent a horrendous amount of money on it. I sweat every month when I make a payment. But it had NOTHING do do with what I hope OTHER people think when they see me driving down the road in it. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that it can pull and stop my 3 horse slant load trailer. And the fact that it can pull a trailer with our John Deere tractor with the front end loader on front and a brush hog on the back through the pasture without getting stuck. But if we DO get stuck, we have 4 wheel drive to get us out. And it can pull a full trailer load of hay. And it can pull a trailer with an UTV and dog boxes on it. And I can travel over 800 miles one way to visit my folks without having to worry about breaking down when I'm on my own.
> 
> Tell me...where are these folks you speak about that have no lives at all and judge folks on what they drive and the dogs they own? Where are these folks? What does it mean that I have two feral cats? What status does that give me? Oh...and I walk to the mail box in my PJ's at night. What does that mean? Oh yea, and sometimes, late at night when nobody else is home, I'll turn the music up real loud and dance with my dogs! What status does that give me? Should I leave the blinds open when I do that?


No one JUDGES you. But people have preconceived notions about the things they see. If I saw your truck (I’m assuming a heavy duty one) I’d assume that you own a ranch or a farm of some sort and use the truck for that. I’d assume that you are some sort of a farmer/rancher and that its very useful for you in regards to your job or possibly hobby. It just gives me a little information (based on my prior experience) of what you might do for a living and how well you do it. So it’s nothing negative, or positive, but it’s just a piece of information about your life. If I saw a truck like that parked in my community…I’d be more likely to ask what my neighbor does with something like that. Find out more about them. Or maybe I’ll assume they’re a contractor and use it for that. That’s all I’m saying. The things we own, give people a slight insight into the lives we chose to live…they can take that information and make a judgment (negative or positive) about that information, but that’s usually based on their prior experience and nothing to do with you.

The same goes for a luxury vehicle. It’s just a piece of information about that person. Some people will think bad of it, others will think good of it. It’s their experience that will cause that “judgment.”

But like what blanketback said about their thoughts about a luxury car. They think the person is stupid for buying it and not making a better investment. That’s still based on the information they gathered just by looking at that vehicle and knowing that it probably cost more money than your average car. Other people will think…man, that person must be financially sound enough that they were able to comfortably afford that car. I just read an article about how Warren Buffet bought a new Cadillac. Do you think he should’ve made a better investment? Or is he one of those that can comfortably afford a Cadillac over a Chevy and not think twice about it?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> I think you've got it wrong about making derogatory comments about breeders. IMO, we can't say bad stuff because it's unfair to them to criticize them when they're not here to defend themselves. Wow, that would be a tremendous amount of locked threads too, lol. But take my pup as an example: I could bellyache about how he has a food intolerance, how he has seasonal allergies, boo hoo hoo my breeder sucks. But the only other dog to her knowledge that has allergies is the sire's brother, and all the other puppies from that litter are fine. Huh, maybe it's just _life_ that my guy isn't 100% perfect? Fine by me, I'm not either, lol.


That's part of it...but its mostly the fact that a negative comment leaves people (board owners) open to legal liability. So an untrue negative comment...is really bad. But an untrue (or slightly exaggerated) positive comment isn't the worst thing in the world. And because we really can't substantiate the claims people make on this forum...the negative ones aren't allowed. No one is going to get mad over a positive lie...but a negative lie or even a negative truth...might affect business and make someone mad.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Well who bloody cares, lol??? My neighbor got an Alpina at an auction for a fraction of the price - he says it's a chick magnet. Lol, good for him! My only judgement call is that Lilie is a chicken, because I get my mail in my PJs too, only in BROAD DAYLIGHT  What can I say? LOL.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> Well who bloody cares, lol??? My neighbor got an Alpina at an auction for a fraction of the price - he says it's a chick magnet. Lol, good for him! My only judgement call is that Lilie is a chicken, because I get my mail in my PJs too, only in BROAD DAYLIGHT  What can I say? LOL.


100% agree! You shouldn't care! But...I've talked with people who do say it affects their life...even if subconsciously.

Like...I used to work in sales, and the upper level guys would say that it's a good first sign when you pull up to a client meeting in a nicer car/well taken care of car, because it shows you're success in the field and people are more willing to work with other successful people. If you were going to invest thousands of dollars with someone, and they pulled up in a fast and furious looking vehicle...what would your first impression tell you?

Same with a possible contractor...if they pull up in a newer truck/van...you know they are successful enough to be able to afford a new vehicle when they needed one. Or...you could also think that they're making too much money off their customers and are spending it on things they don't need because a 30 year old truck would do just fine.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That's very true, and if I needed to make a good first impression on someone, then I'd make a point to try my hardest. There's a fine line between not caring because it's not important, and not caring because you're oblivious, lol.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I vote Lillie you should leave the blinds open.  It might bring joy into peoples lives who are so stuck on status they care what others pay for dogs.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I know of a few rescue people who are so vulgar and nasty they turn people to breeders. Its a bad cycle

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> My only judgement call is that Lilie is a chicken, because I get my mail in my PJs too, only in BROAD DAYLIGHT  What can I say? LOL.


Broad daylight, you say? Is this a double dog dare? Cuz I'll even wear my camo crocks......


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> But, I think the shelters and rescues are as responsible for whatever pet-overpopulation problems there are as breeders are.
> 
> Decades ago, when someone dumped a dog in a shelter, they knew what would happen to it. It would die, probably a pretty gruesome death. They used to electrocute them in Cleveland when I was a kid, and EVERYBODY knew it. People weren't dumping their dogs at shelters because they got a new carpet or furniture, because they wanted to go camping and didn't want to be bothered with the dog.
> 
> ...


There are so many distortions and inaccuracies in this that I don't even know where to begin.

But no, if that's meant to be a representation of average reality (rather than cherry-picking of outlier anecdotes), it is not even close to true.

It certainly isn't anywhere close enough to the truth to be a useful guide for improvement.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lilie said:


> Broad daylight, you say? Is this a double dog dare? Cuz I'll even wear my camo crocks......


Camo crocs! omg those must be insane.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> I vote Lillie you should leave the blinds open.  It might bring joy into peoples lives who are so stuck on status they care what others pay for dogs.


I can do it! Ok...I really can't. Because it's awful dark outside and I've seen too many scary movies that don't end well. You know the ones where the lady is doing all her lady stuff with the blinds open and the dude with the machette is standing outside looking in and she doesn't see him because he's standing in the dark.......well, if I didn't have a SL dog I would. But the machette man would come in and my dogs would just strike a stacking pose with their hump backs all humpity and he wouldn't be impressed and I'd be all bummed.....


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Ewwww...but definitely no worse than my beat-up birk mary-janes, with the flopping unglued sole on one and the kicked-out toe on the other. I'm guessing a tie here 

ETA: if it's _that_ dark out, go naked! Yeah, there's a dare for ya!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> ETA: if it's _that_ dark out, go naked! Yeah, there's a dare for ya!


I have to cross a road. Ya'll would be hearing the news tomorrow morning " A hybrid of the Chupacabra and Bigfoot was sighted in Pearland, Tx. late last night. Witnessess say the creature was dancing with a German Shepherd dog and was thought to be attempting to sing 'Another Brick in the Wall' by Pink Floyd. However, it was difficult to listen to the screetching noises made by the beast."


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

LOL, I have to cross a road too! Worst case scenario, the neighbors end up putting in some nice conifers. Win win!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Merciel said:


> There are so many distortions and inaccuracies in this that I don't even know where to begin.
> 
> But no, if that's meant to be a representation of average reality (rather than cherry-picking of outlier anecdotes), it is not even close to true.
> 
> It certainly isn't anywhere close enough to the truth to be a useful guide for improvement.



I like the way you truncated my post. But the fact remains, like I said in my post, that the reason for dogs in shelters is due to the attitude of dog owners. If dog owners considered the commitment of dog ownership before getting a dog, and worked with it and trained it before the dog was having serious problems, then people wouldn't be dumping them at shelters when the honeymoon period is over, when they get new carpet or furniture, when they accept another job and have to move, when the neighbors complain about the barking in the back yard. 

And when you have the idea that Fido will probably be pulled by a rescue, will be fostered and trained, and maybe even made into a service dog, it makes it so much easier to drop him off. Waa Waaa for the shelter workers, and never look back. 

And if Fido is too aggressive or has medical issues or too hyper or too scared or is just big and black and there is no room, they will never know that he was shunted off into the back room and given the needle. 

The no-kill shelter/rescue popularity has created in people that attitude. Sure, 40 years ago, people pretended to themselves that Fluffy was just so sweet, or so cute, or so whatever that SOMEBODY would pull him in the 3-5 days they were given. But they _knew. _And people didn't go through dogs like underwear in those days.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I joined this thread to support the guy who was getting bashed for buying a dog from a breeder only to find even more bashing those of us who choose rescue dogs. How do you all think this makes those of us with rescue dogs feel?
> 
> Cause what I'm getting here is my dogs shouldn't live because they are not the best and the brightest. My 7 year old who is missing her tale should have been put down because she was old and injured? Or maybe you think I should have put Ivan and my puppy down because they were scared? Oh and poor wiggles her only crime was to be an all black dog in a shelter full of other dogs.
> 
> ...


Why do you take everything so personally. This is my first pure bred dog from a breeder.....all of mine have been rescues in one way or another......
Nobody said anything of the sort.......calm down and stop takng things as a personal attack.......


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

selzer said:


> I have nothing against rescues in general, and I have encouraged people to check out shelters or rescues. But, I think the shelters and rescues are as responsible for whatever pet-overpopulation problems there are as breeders are.
> 
> Decades ago, when someone dumped a dog in a shelter, they knew what would happen to it. It would die, probably a pretty gruesome death. They used to electrocute them in Cleveland when I was a kid, and EVERYBODY knew it. People weren't dumping their dogs at shelters because they got a new carpet or furniture, because they wanted to go camping and didn't want to be bothered with the dog.


Selzer, do you honestly believe that the existence of selective intake shelters and rescues is the root cause of people seeing their pets as disposable? 

If yes, that really does make me laugh out loud.

There are plenty of parts of the world – and communities in this country – that do not have a good network of selective intake shelters and/or rescues. And, trust me, these places are not panaceas of responsible pet ownership where people decide to just keep Fluffy because they wouldn’t want Fluffy to be killed at the shelter. Unwanted pets are turned out on the street or rural area to fend for themselves, shot and, yes, dumped at municipal/county pounds in areas of this country that euthanize a very large percentage of healthy animals they take in due to low adoption traffic. 

I really don’t know what data you could possibly be basing your theory on – i.e. that the presence of selective-intake shelters and rescues in a community results in higher pet relinquishment rates. 

So, let’s take a closer look at what the available data tell us are factors that lead some communities to have higher shelter intake rates than others:

Communities with low pet sterilization rates tend to have relatively higher shelter intake rates. 
Communities with relatively high poverty rates tend to have higher shelter intake rates. 
Shelters that sterilize intact pets prior to their release tend to have lower future intake rates.
Source: http://www.shelteroverpopulation.org/SOS_Chapter-1.pdf

And, by the way, nationally, we have seen dramatic declines in both shelter intake rates (public and private) and euthanasia rates. "Decades ago" more dogs were being brought to shelters and more dogs died in shelters in this country.

The shelter and rescue world has helped achieve these outcomes in the following ways:

Spaying and neutering animals prior to adoption, raising awareness about spaying/neutering and helping to fund low-income spay/neuter programs. 
Raising awareness/changing perceptions about the adoptability of shelter dogs/cats thereby increasing the number of households who choose to adopt. 
Getting shelter dogs out of “pounds” that people found depressing and wanted to avoid and into facilities that are community-centered, education-oriented and dog/user friendly which again, increases the adoption rates.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

In response to the OP, and as I admit to not reading all 13pages of comments at this point, I would point out the following to anyone who is anti-breeder. 

First of all, the plight of dogs in our shelters is horrible and inexcusable. And the desire to save them all is very understandable. However, with 8million or so dogs being put to sleep every year (a number I read/heard randomly in various places) it's simply not possible. But to all those well meaning people who have been brainwashed by PETA and other animal right's groups to be anti-breeder I offer the following. 

If you really look at the kind of dogs in the shelters, you'll find that the overwhelming majority of them are mixes. Not even designer/poodle mixes, but the OOPS kind of mix. Breeders don't breed OOPS dogs, irresponsible dog owners breed OOPS dogs. The kind that neglect to get their dogs altered, and then neglect to watch their females when they're in heat, and then go to all their friends nearly bragging that their dog is going to have puppies and those self same people who are anti breeders and want to save all shelter dogs nearly trip over themselves to go see and play with (and maybe even adopt!) one of the, most likely free, oops puppy. I know this description doesn't apply to everyone, but I dare say most. 

Irresponsible owners are the source of shelter dogs, not responsible breeders. And why should purebred dogs, with all their predictable size, temperaments and abilities, be forced to go extinct while all breeding is put on a temporary hold so we can deal with the consequences of the million or so irresponsible owners who put out an OOPS litter every year? It's GOOD to have purebreds, so you can find the best possible match for your family and lifestyle. And while you may try your best, you don't REALLY know what you're getting with a shelter dog, unless you get one from a rescue who's fostered the dog for a while. But then, that's not a shelter dog, it's a rescue . . .

I don't put down people who choose to get a rescue. On the contrary, more power to them. These dogs need a home and they are willing to provide one. BUT! I don't want people looking down on me because I would rather my next dog NOT be the product of an irresponsible owner who didn't want or expect to raise a litter, probably didn't socialize the pups right, and quite possibly sent the puppies home entirely too early because they didn't know better! (They aren't nursing anymore, why not?) 

I think the best way to highlight the point is to point out the extreme of what most people are suggesting. If EVERYONE altered their dogs (except the irresponsible owners who clearly don't do as they're supposed to) and EVERYONE stopped breeding and EVERYONE ONLY got their dogs from shelters, 20years from now dogs would be nearly extinct in this country (except for the oops litters from people who don't know what they're doing) and the only people who can have dogs are those with enough money to import from other countries. Any young dogs you could find would be the result of accident after accident after accident with likely no predictable sizes or energy levels or trainability or health. 

On the other hand, if EVERY pet owner altered their pets and ONLY got their dogs from responsible breeders who only breed healthy dogs with good nerves and sound structure, that would lead to a bright future indeed!

Of corse, no one is going to stand there that long and listen to all that, so I'd probably just tell them that I wanted to support a responsible breeder who tries to breed better dogs, because once we stop the irresponsible dogs owners who fill the shelters in the first place, dogs in the future have to come from somewhere . . . 

If these people wanted to end the overwhelming number of dogs in shelters, they need to place that outrage away from breeders and ONTO people with accidental litters. It should be as uncomfortable as walking around with a 2nd nose. If accidents were rare it'd be one thing, but with things being the way they are, we need to be WAY more diligent about making sure that each and every one of us don't contribute to the problem, or inadvertently condone irresponsible behavior by cooing over a litter of accidental puppies. 

Side note: I know that purebreds end up in shelters and need help too, but they are by far in the minority. Unless you start talking about pit bulls, which seem to be abundantly everywhere. Poor things.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

On the note of treating dogs as disposable items, since I just noticed that was said, I have this to say . . .

I think it's fair to say that the more you pay for something, the more you value it, because when you shell out a large amount of money, it'll probably even hurt a little bit. Unless you're one of those lucky people who think nothing about dropping $1,000 on something. Most of us aren't like that. 

With so many people having accidental litters, there are a plethora of FREE puppies that impulse "buyers" take home when they had no idea they were even going to come home with a dog that day. This was not very well thought out and when they realize that this puppy is going to start eating everything and peeing everywhere (this person probably didn't bother to buy proper dog supplies like a crate, a pen, or chew toys) they decide that this free puppy isn't worth the trouble and they dump him at the shelter. They literally had nothing invested in the dog. 

Dogs adopted FROM the shelter have a little financial hump to them, that low adoption fee of $60 or so, maybe a little more from rescue groups, provides SOME reason to stop and think before adopting. People who go through these groups are well intentioned and maybe a little less impulsive than people who just happen to go home with a dog. Well, maybe. You could go to the shelter thinking you'll just look, and then just not be able to leave without that poor dog in the corner. That would still be impulsive. But my point is that $60 is still not that big an investment, especially these days where people trip over themselves to drop several hundred dollars on the newest smart phone because they just have to have it. If something goes wrong with this dog behaviorally, or he just becomes inconvenient, there wasn't that big an investment in the dog to begin with so there probably wouldn't be as much psychologically keeping the owner from returning the dog to the shelter/rescue. 

Then there are the purebreds. Starting at at least $500 and averaging at least $1,000 or more, these dogs are a SERIOUS investment. People have to think long and hard before just dropping this much money on a cute pup. And when they finally shell out the money, it probably even hurts a little. I know it'd hurt me. At this point, whenever the owner looks at the dog, they see a $1,000 investment. It's not hard to imagine that someone would "throw out" something they got for free or let that $60 go, but $1,000? I don't think there are many other than the very well off who would just throw out the equivalent of $1,000. 

NOT TO MENTION! They would be contractually obligated by responsible breeders to return the dog to them and NOT dump it at the shelter. There are plenty of unethical breeders turning out puppies to make a quick buck off unknowing buyers who didn't do their homework, but they tend to lack breed type, because they don't really take care who they throw together. These dogs also tend to be cheeper. I saw an ad in the paper the other day for German Shepherds for $250. I was like WTF?! How the heck are they affording THAT!? Clearly they're cutting corners somewhere. And if something ends up wrong with the pup down the line, the breeder is most likely not going to take them back and it's more than likely THIS gsd who'll end up in the shelter over the gsd who cost 4x's as much. 

So why are dogs treated like a disposable commodity? 

Because they cost less than a cell phone or even a lap top (make that a tablet, these days) and they're too freakin' cheap, that's why . . .

If the minimum purchase price for any puppy anywhere, including a shelter rescue, was $500, there would be fewer impulse buys and it would be more likely only people who are serious about bringing a dog home and doing right by it would actually go out and get one.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sparra said:


> Why do you take everything so personally. This is my first pure bred dog from a breeder.....all of mine have been rescues in one way or another......
> Nobody said anything of the sort.......calm down and stop takng things as a personal attack.......


What makes you think I'm taking it as a personal attack? 

Actually I'm LMBO at Lilie. I think the slasher movie you are talking about is Machete Kills with Danny Trejo.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LifeofRiley said:


> Selzer, do you honestly believe that the existence of selective intake shelters and rescues is the root cause of people seeing their pets as disposable?
> 
> If yes, that really does make me laugh out loud.
> 
> ...


It is not the shelters/rescues, and it is not the breeders, it is the attitude that many irresponsible dog owners have that causes dogs to be dumped in shelters. 

What I said is that it is just as reasonable to blame no-kill shelters and rescues than it is to blame breeders. The vast majority of dogs dumped in shelters are adolescent or elderly dogs. Not bitches with pups or puppies under 3 months. Certainly there are some, but the majority of dogs in shelters are dogs that have been owned by someone who failed to bond with, train, manage properly, so they dumped them. 

If you think that the idea of foster homes, etc, doesn't make it easier to dump a dog, I think you are sorely mistaken. I think people would try a little harder to either make it work or find the dog another home if they thought the dog would be euthanized, like the lady in the parking lot boo-hooing because she changed her mind, and her dog was already dead. Sorry. That is what people should think. They are dumping their dog. There is nothing pretty or sterile about that. So getting the dog out of the pounds and into modern shelters can be counter-productive. 

But the facts remain that the people who are responsible are the people who drop their dogs off, not people who do not spay/neuter, not people who have one litter out of their bitch, not people who breed for the pet market or the show fancy or for working dogs or for sport. 

Instead of villifying people by calling them irresponsible for not altering their pet, say it like it is, and villify the people who dump their dogs, villify the people who are irresponsible with their dogs and have supposed oops litters, especially if they dump them on rescues or shelters. But villifying people for going to a breeder rather than a rescue or shelter, is totally unhelpful. It only makes people less likely to ever purchase a pet from a shelter or rescue.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

selzer said:


> If you think that the idea of foster homes, etc, doesn't make it easier to dump a dog, I think you are sorely mistaken.


If you think that that the average person who relinquishes their pet to a high-kill shelter is even aware of (or cares) that there are rescues who pull and foster dogs, I think you are sorely mistaken... lol.

Most dogs in selective-intake shelters and rescues are adoptable dogs that have been pulled from high-kill shelters (with little publicity or fanfare), they are not from owners who sought out a "no-kill" rescue to relinquish their dog to.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LifeofRiley said:


> If you think that that the average person who relinquishes their pet to a high-kill shelter is even aware of (or cares) that there are rescues who pull and foster dogs, I think you are sorely mistaken... lol.
> 
> Most dogs in selective-intake shelters and rescues are adoptable dogs that have been pulled from high-kill shelters (with little publicity or fanfare), they are not from owners who sought out a "no-kill" rescue to relinquish their dog to.


Well, I talk to people. Or rather, people talk to me. They talk to me about dogs. They tell me stuff. Sometimes that stuff blows my mind, and I just nod and smile or frown, whatever is expected. But the fact remains, that I have talked to a lot of people who have told me that they have taken dogs to the shelter, and only would because it no-kill. They have told me what they think will happen. Whatever. I think we all pick and choose to a certain extent what we believe, especially if to believe otherwise may mean that something we wouldn't like is happening. People DO relinquish pets with the expectation that they are fostered, and rehomed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

People are made fully aware that their animal could be euthanized at surrender. FULLY AWARE. And they still CHOOSE to leave them. Their expectations are what they want to happen so they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. 

That lack of responsibility is in no way the fault or responsibility of no kill shelter or rescue OR any of their fosters.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, their lack of responsibility is not the fault of breeders whose dogs are not the ones being relinquished either.

It seems I struck a nerve. People do not like to hear people say they are responsible for dogs dying in shelter. 

The people at fault are the ones that dump their dogs, no one else. But the rescue/shelter communities LOVE to blame breeders. And we are all supposed to accept it and make excuses why our dogs deserve to be bred and our puppies are worth more than the yayhoo down the street who is mixing pit bulls with JRTs. 

It is not the breeders. It is clear that if puppies are not produced, puppies will come from outside the country to fill the gap, and the puppy mills will breed even more to supply the demand.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Excuse me, Sue, but what you said in addition to that was that it was somehow the fault of rescues and no kill shelters. For a reason I can't even wrap my brain around.

I most certainly did not say it was not the fault of the people dumping their dogs. I have never said that. And I most certainly did not say it was the breeders fault so don't even go there with me.

As a person active in rescue and someone that has fostered, I will certainly have a nerve struck by having it implied it's somehow my fault dogs are dying in shelters simply because I had the audacity to help so some scumbag with no responsibility can have the "expectation" that their animal will be safe and warm at my feet. 

And yes, that is basically what you said so stop trying to twist it. You've come out with some real whoppers lately.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

CarolinaRose said:


> I don't put down people who choose to get a rescue. On the contrary, more power to them. These dogs need a home and they are willing to provide one. BUT! I don't want people looking down on me because I would rather my next dog NOT be the product of an irresponsible owner who didn't want or expect to raise a litter, probably didn't socialize the pups right, and quite possibly sent the puppies home entirely too early because they didn't know better! (They aren't nursing anymore, why not?)


This is why I would prefer to go to a reputable breeder than a shelter. Once again, I have nothing against shelters/rescues but from my experience I would rather not take the risk. I have a friend who has adopted from a shelter and their dog is a bit of a mess. Very timid, and very aggressive to strange dogs and people. He's a Poodle Maltese cross or something of the like. He proves very difficult to take out walking in public, and what I mean in public, is taking him for a walk down the street or to the beach. He goes crazy, growling, urinating and bites at others who walk close. But at home in the house he is a reasonable friendly dog, once he has gotten to know you, and my friend is content to keep him at home. However, I have a different expectation when I go looking for a dog. I want a dog to be able to go places with me and that's why I would go to a reputable breeder instead of to a shelter. Of course there can be lovely take-it-wherever-you-go types of dogs at shelters too, but I would rather not take the risk of getting the wrong dog because I do not know its environmental and genetic background. 

And also, just something else to mention, with some shelters people I know that have talked of, they say that some shelters say anything to get you to adopt an animal, even if the animal is nothing of what they described. I had another friend who adopted a cat, the shelter said she was a smoochy, cuddly girl who loves people and well, the cat is the complete opposite. She dislikes being touched or held and the only contact she has with her owner is just really being in the same room and will occasionally rub against the owner's legs at feeding time, and will sleep at he foot of the bed, but that's just it. Talk about misrepresentation. But yeah, of course not all shelters/rescues are like this. 



CarolinaRose said:


> Then there are the purebreds. Starting at at least $500 and averaging at least $1,000 or more, these dogs are a SERIOUS investment. People have to think long and hard before just dropping this much money on a cute pup. And when they finally shell out the money, it probably even hurts a little. I know it'd hurt me. At this point, whenever the owner looks at the dog, they see a $1,000 investment. It's not hard to imagine that someone would "throw out" something they got for free or let that $60 go, but $1,000? I don't think there are many other than the very well off who would just throw out the equivalent of $1,000.


This also makes sense. It's like with my mum's and her friends' pure breed Arabian horses. The expensive ones, with great bloodlines and type are treated like gold, they are very careful to place them in squeaky clean paddocks and to insure them. Oddly enough, the "precious" horses are the ones that are always trying to injure themselves. :crazy:


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## 45yearsofGSDs (Sep 19, 2013)

Wow, this is a touchy subject - hope I didn't stir anything up in here!!!! I think it's just a preferential sort of thing. I've had my Sadie for almost 8 years and Bear for 5. I have always worked with them on a daily basis. Both were unwanted an untrained. It really all depends on what the person wants. For me, it's not so much a status thing, german shepherds are simply my breed of choice because of the good luck I've had with them and me taking them out of ungodly and inhumane situations. Both national and regional organizations, I think, are guilty of painting breeders and "bad guys" and use their messages with the shock factor in mind and IMHO, that's where a big part of the problem lies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> Excuse me, Sue, but what you said in addition to that was that it was somehow the fault of rescues and no kill shelters. For a reason I can't even wrap my brain around.
> 
> I most certainly did not say it was not the fault of the people dumping their dogs. I have never said that. And I most certainly did not say it was the breeders fault so don't even go there with me.
> 
> ...


What I said, from the beginning is that it is just as reasonable to blame rescues and no-kill shelters as it is to blame breeders for the problem. Both are wrong. Ya'all are twisting it. Like when Life of Riley truncated my post to leave only the points that I was using to support my argument and not the argument itself.

You _can _say that people are less concerned with what happens to the dog nowadays when they dump them at no-kill shelters. You can. And it is the attitude that people have, the disposable dog attitude, just go out and get another one, that leads to people dumping dogs in shelters and shelter populations rising. 

Look at what you see on Animal Cops, where the dog goes to the shelter, and they fix his multiple burn or stab wounds and HW and cut off his leg and then someone adopts him, and he is running around an expensive manicured fenced in yard with his new adorable owners -- THAT is what John Q Public thinks happens with Farley when they dump him at the shelter.

The only people that are responsible for dogs in shelters are the jerks that dump them. 

And I have been saying that all along. Whatever, you all have a nice night now. 

Whoppers?!? LOL!


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

One of your dogs that you bred ends up in a shelter you don't think you have a moral responsibility for not placing him properly?


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Sue and I are close to the same age. I grew up in a rural community and like her I don't remember anyone taking their dog to a shelter. I don't think our community even had one.

What I do remember are dogs being hit by cars. A lot of them.

I remember dogs that lived their life on a chain.

I remember problem dogs being euthanized via a shotgun.

I remember dogs being dumped on a country road.

I don't remember the vet care we have today so I'm assuming most of the dogs did not live as long. People did not spend thousands to fix a medical issue. 

The person today that dumps their dog at a shelter telling himself that someone will adopt him is the same person that dumped their dog 40 years ago on a rural road and told himself that the dog would live free and happy or some farmer would be happy to give him a home.

Some people suck. And the suckiest people seem to be the master of self delusion, then and now.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I also remember in Southern Illinois which was quite rural there was a major problem with feral dog packs. They were pretty much shot on sight by everyone...........................

Unwanted or dumped dogs have always existed. Blaming shelters and rescues as being part of the problem, or even alluding to that, is not right in my opinion.

I abhor our euthanasia figures in this country. It saddens me to type it, but the dogs are facing a far kinder death (if there is such a thing) than they did in my childhood. 

And yes most of the dogs were intact, and so many litters were disposed of at birth. Drowning is not a fast way for a pup to go.

I dont know what the answer is except euthanizing or putting sucky people in a shelter. I do think that there is plenty of blame to spread around, and I dislike that the people that are trying to clean up the mess are having fingers pointed at them. 

Some of the best and some of the worse people I know are hobby breeders and considered reputable.

Some of the bet and some of the worse people I know are involved in rescue.

Some people breed for the "right" reasons. Some people rescue for the "right" reasons.
Some people breed for the "wrong" reasons and some people rescue for the "wrong" reasons. 

Some people breed dogs that I would not and some people rescue dogs that I would not..............


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

Betty said:


> One of your dogs that you bred ends up in a shelter you don't think you have a moral responsibility for not placing him properly?


1st I must say that I know nothing about this person, or their breeding/placement program. HOWEVER! Every source of responsible breeding I've ever read states that responsible breeders REQUIRE that owners who are no longer capable or no longer WANT to care for their dog MUST give the dog back to the breeder. This is usually in that adoption contract itself, and I've seen many an adoption contract thanks to breeders being nice enough to post them on their site, and it's always there. 

If a dog STILL ends up in a shelter (UNLESS the breeder put it there for show and in fact has no interest in taking the dog back), the fault lies ENTIRELY with the adoptive owner for breaking the contract and taking the easy way out, dumping the dog at the shelter for free and NOW rather than shelling out money to potentially ship the dog back to the breeder so the breeder can place the dog in another carefully screened home. 

Again, irresponsible owners. Just because people don't want to take responsibility for their actions does not in any way make them less responsible.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

CarolinaRose said:


> 1st I must say that I know nothing about this person, or their breeding/placement program. HOWEVER! Every source of responsible breeding I've ever read states that responsible breeders REQUIRE that owners who are no longer capable or no longer WANT to care for their dog MUST give the dog back to the breeder. This is usually in that adoption contract itself, and I've seen many an adoption contract thanks to breeders being nice enough to post them on their site, and it's always there.
> 
> If a dog STILL ends up in a shelter (UNLESS the breeder put it there for show and in fact has no interest in taking the dog back), the fault lies ENTIRELY with the adoptive owner for breaking the contract and taking the easy way out, dumping the dog at the shelter for free and NOW rather than shelling out money to potentially ship the dog back to the breeder so the breeder can place the dog in another carefully screened home.
> 
> Again, irresponsible owners. Just because people don't want to take responsibility for their actions does not in any way make them less responsible.


No way less responsible, but I do think breeders and rescues have a responsibility to place properly and follow up on any dogs that may of fallen between the cracks...............................



Taking dogs back is often one of the requirements that people put on their definition of a responsible breeder.

But that is an individual thing. And what people say and what people do are often two different things.

I know I stopped referring to a breeder that I had referred to for years when one of their dogs (nicely bred and pedigreed) ended up on Craig list for far less then they had sold the pup for and they could not "afford" to buy the dog. And yes their contract covers the dog being returned.................. Says all the right things.

But that is one of my triggers, it may not be for others.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Great posts, Betty.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> I like the way you truncated my post.
> 
> The no-kill shelter/rescue popularity has created in people that attitude. Sure, 40 years ago, people pretended to themselves that Fluffy was just so sweet, or so cute, or so whatever that SOMEBODY would pull him in the 3-5 days they were given. But they _knew. _And people didn't go through dogs like underwear in those days.


I quoted the parts that were most egregiously incorrect. I don't believe I distorted the main thrust of the post by doing so, but yes, I edited it down to the parts I wanted to focus on, because the rest wasn't as enormously inaccurate.

It is absurd to say that "the no-kill shelter/rescue popularity" is to blame for creating or encouraging that attitude. You might as well blame it on expanding social acceptance of minorities or the popularity of the Internet; it would be about as accurate. Which is to say: not at all (although if you were dead bent on doing so, you could cobble together an equally strained and inaccurate argument that "well now more adoptive homes are available" or "well people see dogs getting adopted to nice homes on Facebook and therefore they're willing to dump dogs in kill shelters ten states away"), and in fact correlated with (not causative of!) _decreased_ rates of surrendered pets.

We used to have tens of millions of perfectly healthy, adoptable dogs and cats being euthanized annually in this country. Now we've cut it down to less than 10% of what the number was in the 1970s and early '80s (when, of course, no-kill was completely unheard of and rescue barely existed). You really think we've decreased euthanasia rates tenfold in the last forty years because people have gotten _less_ responsible and are dumping way more pets in shelters now? Really? _That's_ the position you want to stake out and defend here?

And it is totally inaccurate to say that shelters and rescues are as responsible as breeders are for the problem. One of those groups is actively producing dogs. The other is not.

tl;dr: base arguments on facts not anecdotes plz.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sue, I'm not twisting your words. I'm addressing a whole paragraph you put in your post. You put the words out there for the world to see. They are right there. So instead of backtracking on them when called out over them, own them.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It's the ease and availability of convenient drop-off centers for unwanted dogs, and that false idea that "no-kill" means 'no animal will die' that allows people to dump them without the guilt they _should_ be feeling. Like what Betty says about how it was done decades ago - this is how cats are still being treated in my area, because the shelters are overrun with cats, they no longer take them in, period. So people dump them in nice residential areas to 'find new homes' or dump them off in the woods so they can 'take care of themselves' and it's really sickening. But so common! IDK how you can make people keep an animal for its entire lifetime though, when the prevailing thought is that they're disposable. Which is the cycle: get them, dump them, get another - you can do that in less than an hour!


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Blanketback said:


> It's the ease and availability of convenient drop-off centers for unwanted dogs, and that false idea that "no-kill" means 'no animal will die' that allows people to dump them without the guilt they _should_ be feeling. Like what Betty says about how it was done decades ago - this is how cats are still being treated in my area, because the shelters are overrun with cats, they no longer take them in, period. So people dump them in nice residential areas to 'find new homes' or dump them off in the woods so they can 'take care of themselves' and it's really sickening. But so common! IDK how you can make people keep an animal for its entire lifetime though, when the prevailing thought is that they're disposable. Which is the cycle: get them, dump them, get another - you can do that in less than an hour!


I have followed this thread closely as I have good friends in the rescue community. I work professionally with desperately poor people. Their children sleep on the floor in hallways of their apts., etc. They live on the edge of being homeless. 

I have known entire families living in someone's garage. Not just pets are temporary--jobs, housing, cars, etc. They get evicted, furniture was put on the curb, they come home with most of their stuff gone. Food, gas, and heat are in short supply. 

They get a chance to get free small breed puppy or a cat. They want their CHILDREN to be HAPPY. They have no vehicle or money to drive to vet to get neutered. That is way down the list when you have no food. When circumstances change, dumping the pet is just another loss piggybacking on a trail of many losses.

I am not defending this type of animal ownership--but I do understand it. This thread IMO is a middle class perspective on the issue. Poverty is a very, very complex issue. It is very easy to judge, difficult to grasp and understand.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Betty said:


> One of your dogs that you bred ends up in a shelter you don't think you have a moral responsibility for not placing him properly?


I have in my policy that I will take back a dog at any time in their life. I am not saying it is impossible that a dog of mine will land in a shelter. People are free to give away or sell the dog I sold them. That is what happens when ownership changes hands: the dog no longer belongs to me, and I can no longer make the decisions for the dog. But the people who I sell a puppy or dog to know that if they want for me to take the dog back, I will. 

My contract does not say that they MUST anything. I wouldn't buy a dog if it had strings attached. I don't expect people to buy dogs from me with strings attached. 

If I know a dog in a shelter is mine, I will go and get it, if it is at all possible.


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## 45yearsofGSDs (Sep 19, 2013)

Moriah said:


> I have followed this thread closely as I have good friends in the rescue community. I work professionally with desperately poor people. Their children sleep on the floor in hallways of their apts., etc. They live on the edge of being homeless.
> 
> I have known entire families living in someone's garage. Not just pets are temporary--jobs, housing, cars, etc. They get evicted, furniture was put on the curb, they come home with most of their stuff gone. Food, gas, and heat are in short supply.
> 
> ...


Not only is it a very, very complex issue, it's also more common now than ever!!! :shocked:


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Moriah said:


> . This thread IMO is a middle class perspective on the issue. Poverty is a very, very complex issue. It is very easy to judge, difficult to grasp and understand.


Not sure why you are bringing this up here?

What poor person is going to have to defend getting a dog from a breeder or a rescue?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> Not sure why you are bringing this up here?
> 
> What poor person is going to have to defend getting a dog from a breeder or a rescue?


Valid point!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

selzer said:


> I have nothing against rescues in general, and I have encouraged people to check out shelters or rescues. *But, I think the shelters and rescues are as responsible for whatever pet-overpopulation problems there are as breeders are*. As I do not think breeders are responsible at all for the shelter populations, this does not say that shelters and rescues are responsible either. Though, it is true too that a lot of shelters and rescues turn down homes for one reason or another, and don't put down dogs that are seriously injured or sick, that, without an owner, probably should be put down so that the resources they have are better utilized.
> 
> Decades ago, when someone dumped a dog in a shelter, they knew what would happen to it. It would die, probably a pretty gruesome death. They used to electrocute them in Cleveland when I was a kid, and EVERYBODY knew it. People weren't dumping their dogs at shelters because they got a new carpet or furniture, because they wanted to go camping and didn't want to be bothered with the dog.
> 
> ...





Jax08 said:


> Sue, I'm not twisting your words. I'm addressing a whole paragraph you put in your post. You put the words out there for the world to see. They are right there. So instead of backtracking on them when called out over them, own them.


So I put out my original post. Where I stated that it is the people that dump the dogs, and shelters/rescues hold as much responsibility as breeders -- I do not think the breeders are responsible at all for dogs in shelters (unless the breeder dumps the pups). So in my post I am not saying that rescues/shelters are to blame at all. Again bolded, it is the attitude of the general population of people who dump dogs. It is the people who dump dogs, not the breeders. The thing is, that it is so ingrained in people that the breeders are to blame for shelter population issues, that suggesting shelter's/rescues are as much to blame is irritating because they believe the breeders are to blame. So it strikes a never.

0=0. 

Shelters/rescues hold zero responsibility = breeders hold zero responsibility. The responsibility lies with the owners of the dogs that were dumped. Which is what I said all along.

It is like blaming the gun or blaming the bullets for people getting shot and killed. I believe in personal responsibility. If I shoot someone, that's on me. If I dump a dog in the shelter, that's on me, not whoever bred the dog and sold it to me. 

For that matter, dogs from shelters and rescues land back in shelters and rescues. Not every home is a forever home. So again, if you blame breeders because people will dump their dog at some point down the line, you have to blame rescues and shelters because their placement rates aren't 100% either. 

But again, it isn't the gun or the bullets. It is the person who pulls the trigger, or leaves it unsafely around small children. And it isn't whoever a yayhoo gets the dog from, it is the person who dumps the dog who is at fault.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Merciel said:


> I quoted the parts that were most egregiously incorrect. I don't believe I distorted the main thrust of the post by doing so, but yes, I edited it down to the parts I wanted to focus on, because the rest wasn't as enormously inaccurate.
> 
> It is absurd to say that "the no-kill shelter/rescue popularity" is to blame for creating or encouraging that attitude. You might as well blame it on expanding social acceptance of minorities or the popularity of the Internet; it would be about as accurate. Which is to say: not at all (although if you were dead bent on doing so, you could cobble together an equally strained and inaccurate argument that "well now more adoptive homes are available" or "well people see dogs getting adopted to nice homes on Facebook and therefore they're willing to dump dogs in kill shelters ten states away"), and in fact correlated with (not causative of!) _decreased_ rates of surrendered pets.
> 
> ...


Both groups import puppies for people. So, yes, they are producing puppies, even though they say we have a pet over population problem here. 

But again, it is not the gun manufacturers that are to blame for what is done with the guns. I believe in personal responsibility. The only people responsible are those that dump dogs. Not the breeders of the dumped dogs.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh, I see.

So, in your worldview, the breeder (because remember, we're talking about _all_ breeders here, not just cherry-picking the ethical ones) has no responsibility for mass-producing substandard puppies, selling them at a profit to whoever shows up with a credit card in hand, providing no emotional or practical support when a novice owner can't handle a genetically disadvantaged dog, and leaving that whole mess for a rescue group to clean up.

gotcha

And your feelings on breeders who dump litters of puppies that pass their sell-by date without finding homes? Or breeders who dump their worn-out breeding stock without a second thought once those dogs are no longer profitable? Because we get a fair number of those around here too.

Just pocket the profits and leave the problems for someone else, because hey, _they_ made the choice. It might have been an uninformed or actively misguided choice (because unethical breeders can and do push people into making bad buying decisions, just like unethical car salesmen and mortgage lenders. Why tell the inexperienced family with three toddlers not to purchase a fearful, dysplastic, large-breed puppy when you can sell them _two_ puppies "to be friends with each other"?), but that's on the buyer. It's their fault! They should have known better! THOSE IRRESPONSIBLE FOOLS.

I have to say, that's pretty illuminating, in an unpleasant way.

I _also_ have to say that while I've respected and enjoyed your posts on a number of other topics, I am outright baffled by the position you're taking here.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I keep hearing about these shelters that import puppies.

Does anyone have the name of one? 

I know my Animal Control Officer in charge would be doing a tap dance all over the county if she even thought that would ever be a possibility here...........................


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Merciel said:


> Oh, I see.
> 
> So, in your worldview, the breeder (because remember, we're talking about _all_ breeders here, not just cherry-picking the ethical ones) has no responsibility for mass-producing substandard puppies, selling them at a profit to whoever shows up with a credit card in hand, providing no emotional or practical support when a novice owner can't handle a genetically disadvantaged dog, and leaving that whole mess for a rescue group to clean up.
> 
> ...


And THAT, my friends, is a back yard breeder at its finest. It is illuminating.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Betty said:


> I keep hearing about these shelters that import puppies.
> 
> Does anyone have the name of one?
> 
> I know my Animal Control Officer in charge would be doing a tap dance all over the county if she even thought that would ever be a possibility here...........................


I've heard of them as well. Puerto Rico seems to be high on the list for importing. Our local shelters were FULL of dogs and yet they had to bring dogs in from the south and from Philly area because they didn't have "adoptable" dogs. My mind was still boggled over that.

Thank you to all those people dumping their aggressive and sick dogs in the shelter.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Betty said:


> I keep hearing about these shelters that import puppies.
> 
> Does anyone have the name of one?
> 
> I know my Animal Control Officer in charge would be doing a tap dance all over the county if she even thought that would ever be a possibility here...........................


Shelters, no. Rescues, yes. I could name quite a few. Fostered for one until earlier this month, then switched to another one last week.

Little Boy Blue - Kindle edition by Kim Kavin, Jim Gorant. Crafts, Hobbies & Home Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. is a good discussion of how and why that happens, if you're interested. It's written from the perspective of a pet owner and investigative journalist who adopts one of those puppies, gets curious about the background of her dog, and spends months investigating that particular corner of the rescue world.

Like a lot of books written by "outsiders" (for lack of a better term), it started out making me feel a little uncomfortable at some of the simplifications in the author's perspective, but as she goes on and learns more, she develops a more thorough and nuanced understanding of the situation (albeit one that's still very opinionated), and I thought it was really neat how she wrote about that experience. You take the journey along with her and learn more as she does.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Merciel said:


> It might have been an uninformed or actively misguided choice (because unethical breeders can and do push people into making bad buying decisions, just like unethical car salesmen and mortgage lenders. Why tell the inexperienced family with three toddlers not to purchase a fearful, dysplastic, large-breed puppy when you can sell them _two_ puppies "to be friends with each other"?), but that's on the buyer. It's their fault! They should have known better! THOSE IRRESPONSIBLE FOOLS.
> 
> I have to say, that's pretty illuminating, in an unpleasant way.


 I'm big on personal responsibility. I'm also big on *ethical* breeding. Whose fault is it, ultimately, when a slick salesperson dupes a naïve buyer into biting off more than they can chew? Is it the salesperson's fault for doing the hard sell? Or is it the buyer's fault for not doing research and due diligence before making a decision? 

Ultimately, it's both. Selling companion animals is fraught with ethical issues. If the breeder cares about their charges, they won't sell to just anyone, and they certainly won't try to twist anyone's arm into taking a pup. However, if the buyer is ****-bent on getting a puppy, and will not listen to reason, that buyer is going to find a puppy somewhere. The ethical breeders will not sell to them, but the BYBs will certainly be happy to.

So I want to blame BYBs; they're certainly a big part of the problem. But I also have to point out that if a person who shouldn't have a puppy wants a puppy, they're eventually going to learn the right things to say, to the point where they could dupe even the best breeder into selling them a pup. Probably every good breeder has been so duped at some point.

So where do we lie the blame?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Betty said:


> I keep hearing about these shelters that import puppies.
> 
> Does anyone have the name of one?
> 
> I know my Animal Control Officer in charge would be doing a tap dance all over the county if she even thought that would ever be a possibility here...........................


I have never hear of a shelter doing it but rescues around here do.

Besides a shelter dog from Mexico is far more important then a dog in the rescues own back yard. I think they think its noble but its not noble to ignore ON pups bc "we rescued from mexico" sounds better?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Betty said:


> I keep hearing about these shelters that import puppies.
> 
> Does anyone have the name of one?
> 
> I know my Animal Control Officer in charge would be doing a tap dance all over the county if she even thought that would ever be a possibility here...........................


Yes. When I was living in Victoria, on Vancouver Island in BC, the shelter would import dogs as they didn't have enough to meet demand. The city and area has a pop. lf 350,000. 

It is a University town, a government town, and a popular retirement destination - incomes and education levels are fairly high, and most pet owners are responsible enough to neuter their pets. 

The shelter in Victoria would import dogs from places further North, like in the area I live in: a mostly blue-collar working town. The shelter HERE is the busiest in the province. Adoptable dogs are often sent to shelters in the more populous Southern parts of the province where they have a good chance of being adopted. 

In the past, the shelter here adopted dogs and cats out un-neutered, but with a 50% off coupon for a neuter (still, it cost me about 350$ to have Keeta spayed and tattooed, even with the discount). You KNOW that many ownesr won't bother with the neutering, or don't want to spend that kind of money, even if they are getting a huge discount. 

So a few years ago the shelter was able to get a low-cost clinic going, and now all dogs and cats are neutered prior to adoption. I've heard that the intake has gone down by _half_ in the following years, because of the low cost clinic.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Freestep said:


> So where do we lie the blame?


It's not an either-or. There is no one simple answer.

If you want to address the problem effectively, it's important to accurately recognize _all_ the contributing factors and understand how, when, and why they intersect. Only then can any of us hope to reach the correct answers.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

What do I say to people against breeders? I say watch a dog die of a preventable, genetic disorder. 
Then I say mind your own business. At the end of the day it is NO ONES business but mine what I do, what I think, or what I spend my money on.
I am not a young woman. In all my life I have had hundreds of dogs come through my door, and most were someone else's 'issues'. I have been dirt poor, I have lived in my car, I have worked for food, but at no point were my dogs negotiable any more then a spouse or child would have been. 
As a society we have somehow made our best friends disposable and that is revolting. As a child dogs did not get dumped. The dog that killed chickens got shot, the dog that 'lost it' and turned on the kids got chained elsewhere and we were warned away. They did not see vets or groomers, heck they only got bathed if a skunk got them, the diets were less then stellar but they ran around with kids and other dogs, went fishing and swimming and were generally happy until they died in their sleep on the porch one night. But they didn't get dumped. It is my generation who has somehow taught our children that animals rank somewhere around cell phones, chuck them out and get a prettier one.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I hope those people adopted their children. There are kids in need in the world so following their thoughts it is selfish to produce your own.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Merciel said:


> It's not an either-or. There is no one simple answer.
> 
> If you want to address the problem effectively, it's important to accurately recognize _all_ the contributing factors and understand how, when, and why they intersect. Only then can any of us hope to reach the correct answers.


:thumbup: And, the only way to do that is if efforts are made to collect data and then analyze that data. There are a lot of groups working to standardize data collection procedures across shelters nationally (and internationally) so that we can arrive at better solutions to help increase the likelihood that pets are retained in the home vs. relinquished to a shelter.

I do think it is essential for every shelter to collect intake data, including all reasons for relinquishment, so as to more effectively direct non-profit programs in their communities.

For example, as I cited earlier, it is known that communities with high poverty rates have higher pet relinquishment rates. But, that doesn't mean that all poor people are bad pet owners. Rather, it means that they may face distinct challenges in maintaining pets in their homes over the lifetime of that pet. There are data that demonstrate that certain programs in these communities will lead to lower pet-relinquishment rates. Shelters who understand that are able to advocate for programs that will help these homes retain their pets. 

One program, along those lines, that has had good results here in Chicago is the following:
Pets for Life : The Humane Society of the United States


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> I say watch a dog die of a preventable, genetic disorder.


how is going to a breeder going to prevent this?
if anything getting a mutt would be a better way to prevent it since many many breeders people have gotten dogs from seem to have preventable genetic disorders in their lines 
hd ed and megaesophagus to name but a few :shrug:
i know about these because i read about them all the time here


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> if anything getting a mutt would be a better way to prevent it since many many breeders people have gotten dogs from seem to have preventable genetic disorders in their lines


According to my vet, a mutt is going to be susceptible to everything from the breeds that contributed to his gene pool.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

according to quite a few mutt owners they are healthier than many purebreds 
i mean look at all the threads here full of allergies and joint issues and digestive issues


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> according to quite a few mutt owners they are healthier than many purebreds
> i mean look at all the threads here full of allergies and joint issues and digestive issues


Dogs are subject to any disease carried in their genetic soup. Have a look at any rescues Rainbow Bridge/ In Memory pages.

As well they are more likely to suffer the consequences of issues caused by indiscriminate crossing of incompatible breeds.

The only hope of controlling genetic disorders is through screening and planned breedings. No one is health testing Rover the local stray before he hops the fence and knocks up your neighbors little Precious.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i agree there are some things general to certain breeds or even sizes but the notion that going to a breeder is a guarantee to get a healthy dog vs rescuing or adopting is 
well a false sense of security at best
there are too many health issues specific to purebred dogs to say that breeding or buying from a breeder is the way to avoid health issues


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Merciel said:


> Oh, I see.
> 
> So, in your worldview, the breeder (because remember, we're talking about _all_ breeders here, not just cherry-picking the ethical ones) has no responsibility for mass-producing substandard puppies, selling them at a profit to whoever shows up with a credit card in hand, providing no emotional or practical support when a novice owner can't handle a genetically disadvantaged dog, and leaving that whole mess for a rescue group to clean up.
> 
> ...



The bolded, I already mentioned, people who dump dogs are the ones that are to blame, including breeders who dump dogs. But they ARE importing puppies. So while some breeders do dump a pregnant bitch or a bitch with pups, that is not as typical as adolescent dogs and elderly dogs in shelters. 

No, I believe in personal responsibility. If you bought a dog from a puppy mill or a breeder who is unable to provide support for the problems you are having than it is up to you to find the help you need from other sources. I give average people more credit than you all seem to do. You all seem to think the average pet owner couldn't manage to reheat a piece of pizza in a nuker or oven without help or instructions. 

It really isn't rocket science to raise a puppy. But if you have trouble there are plenty of places to go to get advice or help. Breeders ought to be willing to give you some help with a pup that you purchased from them, if you are having a problem, but no, I do not think that breeders who can't be bothered with helping their customers, are responsible for dogs dying in shelters. Sorry, but no. The fact is, supporting people who are having a problem with a pup makes sense in a business way. Breeders like repeat customers, and helping someone get over puppy antics, or adolescent dog woes, quickly and effectively will likely bring that customer back when they want another dog. 

People today I guess are too darn stupid to make a decision. And someone else should tell them what type of dog they should get and how many they can handle. How did they get so dumb? What happened? If you don't put a warning label on the stove, someone might burn their finger on the element. Hmmmm. Some things are just too crazy. 

No way does lack of support from the breeder exonerate someone for dumping their dog. There are too many avenues one can go down to get support. 

This site says that shelters import up to 300,000 puppies a year to meet the demand for puppies.
Would an Animal Shelter Import a Puppy? | Animalfeasance

Of course that sounds so bazaar, that I have to think it can't be correct. 

But I have heard of places importing puppies from outside the country and bringing in diseases like rabies. 

So what about shelters? Is every dog that comes from a shelter situation come without any genetic issues, health or behavioral. Do shelters offer help when people have problems? I think the answer there, is that it depends on the shelter. Some shelters simply do not have the resources. So those people are indeed smart enough to find the help they need from other sources. And if they dump the dog it isn't because the shelter failed them, it is because they did not make a strong enough commitment to the pup.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This one says they're even importing cats:
Humane or Insane? | National Animal Interest Alliance

In my neighborhood the shelter is always full of cats, will not deal with feral cats, and people dump them all the time near anything that looks like a barn in the country. 

And shelters are IMPORTING them from other countries???

I don't worry too much about puppy mills cranking out puppies. If people would not buy from pet stores or super internet puppy warehouse sites, then they wouldn't be breeding and they would go out of business. They are supplying a demand. And the same is true of BYBs. There is a market for the dogs. They aren't going anywhere anyway. But the idea of shelters importing thousands of dogs, I see that as more disturbing than citizens trying to make a buck breeding dogs.


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## JJSMargo (Jul 3, 2014)

Well, I have owned rescues, shelter and purebreds. I think there is nothing wrong with all 3. Except, if you plan on breeding in the future, you will have to get a purebred that is the # 1 requirement among many others. I can't say that my rescue dogs were a horror, it is the "wonderful" two legged animal who put out cigarette butts on them just to say a little about human cruelty, really made them "fear aggressive bags". Geesh...I wonder why?...Purebreds, shows, competitions, etc..., all the expense, oh so now I can say "well I breed responsibly!" Lovely...Personally speaking, it is a regular pet owner with a heart, who cares and is willing to provide loving home to any animal shelter or purebred that I admire. After all, in all laws of nature I have not seen MUST BE AKC REGISTERED. Wild canines live for thousands of years and have no idea what AKC is. How about a living breathing creature that loves you no matter what you are, love it back!


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

> Originally Posted by my boy diesel
> if anything getting a mutt would be a better way to prevent it since many many breeders people have gotten dogs from seem to have preventable genetic disorders in their lines





Sunflowers said:


> According to my vet, a mutt is going to be susceptible to everything from the breeds that contributed to his gene pool.


Sunflowers is right. If you think carefully, a dog is nothing but the physical representation of his genetic heritage. Even if a dog is mixed, it isn't going to magically erase any bad health pre-dispositions that it's parents had. A lab with a history of hip dysplacia crossed with a poodle with a history of hip dysplacia can and will produce pups that in fact HAVE hip dysplacia. 

Case and point, I personally knew a MUTT puppy with hip dysplasia so bad he needed surgery just so he could walk. Again, a MUTT and a PUPPY. 

Knowing your dog's background (ie: It's pedigree) can go a long way towards making intelligent pairing between dogs to produce the healthiest puppies possible.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> i agree there are some things general to certain breeds or even sizes but the notion that going to a breeder is a guarantee to get a healthy dog vs rescuing or adopting is
> well a false sense of security at best
> there are too many health issues specific to purebred dogs to say that breeding or buying from a breeder is the way to avoid health issues


I think that is the hang up. In today's society of _Everything is guaranteed!_ it seems people forget that puppies weren't manufactured to be identical, no Perfect Puppy recipe to throw in pot, bake in an oven and come out perfect every time. No. What you do, when you go to an ethical breeder to health tests up the wazoo and keeps detailed notes about ancestors and other puppies produced is you _stack the odds in your favor_ of more likely than not getting a healthy pup.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

selzer said:


> I give average people more credit than you all seem to do. You all seem to think the average pet owner couldn't manage to reheat a piece of pizza in a nuker or oven without help or instructions.
> 
> ----------
> 
> People today I guess are too darn stupid to make a decision. And someone else should tell them what type of dog they should get and how many they can handle. How did they get so dumb? What happened? If you don't put a warning label on the stove, someone might burn their finger on the element. Hmmmm. Some things are just too crazy.


I would like to have faith in people, but my current job as a cashier, where I deal with and make conversation with people all day, lead me to think that people just go around repeating whatever soundbite they hear the most. 

Breeders bad. Shelters good!

Ask anyone what kind of dog they have (around here) and they nearly trip over themselves to make sure you know it came from a rescue/shelter and NOT a breeder. People who made the decision to go to a breeder are pretty meek to admit it. 

And speaking of warning labels, I see some pretty crazy warning labels on stuff I scan, which usually causes me to stop and go "Holy crap. The only reason this is here is because someone's already done it." And not only has it happened, but that someone most likely then turned around and refused to take responsibility for THEIR mistake and threatened to sue whatever company made the product. And of corse it's only after the company learned of this new, dumb way people might use their product that they turn around and put a warning label on it to try and keep it from happening again. 

Working as a cashier, I've lost my faith in common sense. JUST TODAY I spent several minutes trying to explain the concept of "Buy 2, get 1 free" to a customer. 

So do I trust people to know what they're doing when they declare they want a dog? NO! Are they capable of learning? Yes. But the VAST majority of them are FAR too lazy. . .


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> If you think carefully


lol i have thought carefully
thing is using genetic disease as a reply to people who are against breeders
which is what this thread is about
is a lame response because purebred dogs have many many many genetic disorders

some things are specific to certain breeds of dogs and a mixed breed would likely be healthier in that respect

not to mention the average joe is not going to visit a uber responsible breeder and therefore is likely gonna get a crap shoot where the health of its brand new purebred pup is concerned
we wont even mention temperament!

this article says it better 

Study Shows Mutts Genetically Healthier - Veterinary Practice News - June 2013


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

CarolinaRose said:


> I think that is the hang up. In today's society of _Everything is guaranteed!_ it seems people forget that puppies weren't manufactured to be identical, no Perfect Puppy recipe to throw in pot, bake in an oven and come out perfect every time. No. What you do, when you go to an ethical breeder to health tests up the wazoo and keeps detailed notes about ancestors and other puppies produced is you _stack the odds in your favor_ of more likely than not getting a healthy pup.


_i_ dont believe it is a guarantee 
if you read my response, i was replying to another poster who said you can rule out horrible genetic diseases by going to a breeder 
and my response was to them was
that is a false sense of security at best


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

Health isn't the only reason to go to an ethical breeder, it's just a piece of the pie. The main reason is because in a perfect world we want for rescues to not even exist, and for all puppies to be bred and raised with care and for the preservation and advancement of whatever breed you're talking about. 

I did skip about 13 pages of thread, so if this thread became about "breeders have healthier dogs than mutts" I honestly missed it. I'm coming from the "how do I defend my decision to go to a purebred breeder" angle that the original OP posted about. 

I agree that only mentioning health in defense of breeders is a no go. Not on it's own. But there is something to be said for the preservation of predictable traits. Not to mention the fact that purebreds are living history. Some breeds go back over 1000 years. Why should all that heritage die because irresponsible people (breeders, owners, shelters, whoever) can't do right by their dogs. Rescue pets can make great pets. No question there. But the vast majority of them are the results of accidental matings that we are trying to prevent. Yes, by all means adopt. But if I choose to bring home a purebred and support that BREED, because that breed has traits and characteristics that I like and want to see continue, I should be able to do that without every well intentioned person and their mother jumping on my back about the rescues I'm allowing to die. 

I'm not allowing them to die. I didn't breed them, I didn't dump them at the shelter. And if you're honest, someone interested in a purebred isn't in the same "market" as someone who just goes to the shelter for any dog. The person who goes to the shelter and just picks a dog is more likely to be persuaded by that individual whose dog had puppies by a "wondering man" that he's giving away for free. THAT irresponsible owner is responsible not only for the accidents he produced (the puppies), but the dogs those individuals might have gotten if not for his mixed litter. Cheap Shelter dogs vs. Free mixed breed litter are the same market. THAT is competition. Cheap Shelter dogs vs. Expensive purebreds are NOT the same market. And, yes, I hate using the word "Market" because I hate suggesting that puppies are products, because they aren't. But the word still works, unfortunately.

Ugh, I went off on another tangent. Yes, Health isn't the only reason for purebred breeders, there are a bunch of reasons to get a purebred dog. Not the least of which is "I want one." Which is why we're here. We love GSDs. Even the GSDs in rescue had to be put together on purpose, which is more than 70% or so of dogs in shelters can claim. Oy, How can I say that shelter dogs shouldn't exist without making it sound like I'm saying they're bad? I feel like I'm tripping over my words . . .


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here’s how this all goes back to what I said…people that do “attack” or question you about why you have a purebred from a breeder, don’t understand that there is a world beyond “pet/companion” when it comes to dogs. If you are the “average pet owner” who doesn’t NEED anything from their dog but companionship…those people look at your dog and think what I said earlier…a mutt from a shelter would give you the same type of love and affection and make you feel just as warm and fuzzy. That shelter dog is already there and it needs a home…so why not get it instead of (with your money) convincing someone else (even if they’re ethical) to produce more dogs? (This is not my belief, but this is the logic that people use) 

The best defense for these questions is to do something extra with your dog. Something where the dog’s natural abilities and breed characteristics come in handy and you truly can’t take a risk with a shelter dog. And you’d be amazed at how even saying you do AKC rally or obedience will get people to understand why you have that breed. Or when you’re at a dog park, and you can call your dog away and make it do anything you ask, how amazed people get and many will equate that to the intelligence our breed is known to possess. You just have to show people that your dog isn’t the “average pet” and that’s why you get a purebred. Make your pet an excellent example of what a dog should be, and people tend to stop questioning you. But the moment your dog is acting just like their un-obedient mutt, and you tell people the only reason you have this dog is because you “like the breed” is when they’ll question you.

And again…I’m not saying you shouldn’t own this breed if all you do want with it is a pet. But if you’re worried about people “questioning” your decision, don’t give them the chance to question it. People will always question decisions they don’t agree with…but when you throw in something they don’t understand (like dog shows/trials) they can’t question it.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Maybe you should ask yourself .. why would you be worried about someone's opinion on your decision that affects only you and your household? That's the issue ... worrying about what people say or think of you. The TOPIC in this case is just breeder v. rescue. I'm not sure why that question would even come up in random meetings. Don't answer ... just walk away *shrug* .. it's none of their business what you do.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Martemchik, your post just inspired an 'ah ha moment' in me: _this_ is why so many people want me to breed my dog!!! No matter which decade, or with which dog, I've always been approached - and I'll bet tons of other people on this board have too - because my GSDs have always been ambassadors of the breed. Even last week, at the river, someone commented on my boy's looks and temperament. And then on closer inspection, commented on his intactness. And then said, "You can breed him!" Nowadays my answer is just a smile. I'd rather have someone question what they said (What did I say? Why didn't she answer me? Huh, what's wrong with saying to breed her dog???) than have someone get all huffy and tune me out when I say I'm not a GSD breeder and you can't throw them together 'just because' blah blah blah. Some day someone with an intact female GSD is going to be really mad at me when I refuse to stud my male out, I just know it. Because people (around here anyhow) are only thinking about themselves, and what they want, and if they want to breed their female, then that's what they'll do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL Blanketback.

Question this past weekend to me...

"Are you going to neuter him or stud him out?"

Ummmm...neither.

Seger wasn't 10 weeks old yet and I had a person ask me about breeding. How about we just teach him to sit first?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Martemchik, your post just inspired an 'ah ha moment' in me: _this_ is why so many people want me to breed my dog!!! No matter which decade, or with which dog, I've always been approached - and I'll bet tons of other people on this board have too - because my GSDs have always been ambassadors of the breed.


I too have been approached many times. Even though my dogs aren't always ambassadors of the breed and are always neutered. It cracks me up. You can't even tell?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> You just have to show people that your dog isn’t the “average pet” and that’s why you get a purebred.


but for most owners out there no matter the breed or where they got it the dog is just an average pet!



> I too have been approached many times. Even though my dogs aren't always ambassadors of the breed and are always neutered.


this exactly!
my dogs have always been altered and just seeing them people approach and ask if we will breed them! we have had this happen with more than one of our dogs!
people are amazing in that they just see things and want it or want one like it
it doesnt even have to be doing anything spectacular :shrug:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> but for most owners out there no matter the breed or where they got it the dog is just an average pet!


Yeah...but look at what galathiel said. If that question bothers you, give people a reason not to question it. It's not hard to. Make that dog the most obedient dog they've ever seen and trust me, no one will question why you have a purebred GSD. They'll equate it to the breed, and understand that that kind of obedience is important to you, so they won't ask stupid questions or challenge your decision to go to a breeder.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree - and to take your idea further: those people will look at your awesome GSD and either a) want one exactly the same, and assume no training is involved, that they just _come_ like that or b) think you're mean because your dog "isn't allowed to think for itself." DUH, YES, I've met both types more than once! 
It's a wonder I still speak to stranger at all when I'm out with my dog, lol.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> I agree - and to take your idea further: those people will look at your awesome GSD and either a) want one exactly the same, and assume no training is involved, that they just _come_ like that or b) think you're mean because your dog "isn't allowed to think for itself." DUH, YES, I've met both types more than once!
> It's a wonder I still speak to stranger at all when I'm out with my dog, lol.


Yours didn't come like that? I would've asked for a refund...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I know, eh? I mean, with my adult adoptions I knew I was taking a chance, and with my BYB I was taking a huge risk too, but now with this guy....I tell ya, I'd be bashing my breeder all day long if I could, when you think of all the commands that didn't come built right in. Geez, I got ripped off!!!


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## Capt (Jul 22, 2014)

It's tricky to say the least. I feel so badly for all the unwanted dogs (not to mention all the other animals) in this world. My two cats are rescues. 
With that being said, if a person wants a specific purebred I can't fault them for that. Even the purebreds can end up homeless. It's truly very sad.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> those people will look at your awesome GSD and either a) want one exactly the same, and assume no training is involved, that they just _come_ like that or b) think you're mean because your dog "isn't allowed to think for itself." DUH, YES, I've met both types more than once!


 Yep! Me too... ever since I've had a dog, I've dealt with both those types, many many many times. When I was in college my GSD went everywhere with me, including my classes. Everyone loved that dog because she was well behaved and very obedient... but on the flipside, some found it "harsh" and "controlling" that I would insist on obedience from her. I found that both funny, and exasperating....


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, obviously they know nothing about german shepherds. A GSD without obedience can turn into a monster.


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## JJSMargo (Jul 3, 2014)

I find some things as outrageous really on this forum! First and foremost if you are an adult with hopefully brain and will of your own, you would think twice about providing justification to a whole bunch of folks you will never meet face to face.

Second, we would not have mutts, rescues, shelters, etc., if people did care about animals and had values and a healthy drop of humaneness in them-we would not have any of those problems. We have people who drop off dogs anywhere anytime out of convenience, or boredom, or tired, or no money, and then good folks discuss genetics, worthy v. non-worthy, " nervy fear bitey maladjusted disease bags"...Do you really have the ultimate right to? Who created the problem? Not dogs for sure.
How dare do some people even go into topic of worthy v. not worthy. Historically it was Adolf Hitler and his philosophy of "Life Worthy of living" and taking it even further attempting a human breeding program.

Listen, get any kind of dog you want: purebred, GSD, shelter, mutt you name it, but be a good loving owner that is what important and **** it, stop writing on and on and on in justifications! You do have to have some backbone in this life for God's sake and other folks who don't like and don't agree...Well, opinion is like an a*****e, everyone got one.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

JJSMargo said:


> I find some things as outrageous really on this forum! First and foremost if you are an adult with hopefully brain and will of your own, you would think twice about providing justification to a whole bunch of folks you will never meet face to face.
> 
> Second, we would not have mutts, rescues, shelters, etc., if people did care about animals and had values and a healthy drop of humaneness in them-we would not have any of those problems. We have people who drop off dogs anywhere anytime out of convenience, or boredom, or tired, or no money, and then good folks discuss genetics, worthy v. non-worthy, " nervy fear bitey maladjusted disease bags"...Do you really have the ultimate right to? Who created the problem? Not dogs for sure.
> How dare do some people even go into topic of worthy v. not worthy. Historically it was Adolf Hitler and his philosophy of "Life Worthy of living" and taking it even further attempting a human breeding program.
> ...


I think there are some legit and good opinions as well as info in this thread. Just my opinion.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## JJSMargo (Jul 3, 2014)

There are Jafo220. I never said that the entire thread is inadequate. What pisses me off though is some folks wandering into certain depths without knowledge and thinking about what they put down in writing, and some look for this childish approval from this thread's members. I love long coated GSD and had them before they were officially recognized by SV, endured **** of criticism from a K-9 club I was a member of, even managed to get into a fight with one club member. The moment they became recognized, and my long-coat was shown in several events, all of a sudden "Oh, he is such a gorgeous dog!!! Will you breed him?, etc..." However, regardless of the wave of recognition, I stood my ground firm and NEVER gave anyone any apologetic explanations trying to be a "company girl" and never felt ashamed of my dog.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

well jjsmargo, on the internet there's all different degrees of backbone, lolol...

I also think the thread is valuable.


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## JJSMargo (Jul 3, 2014)

Some posts are Katieliz. I do agree with that. Trust me on the internet, or in person I'm the same person. I own what I say and do everyday.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Only read the first page, but I just don't say much of anything anymore. I just let them judge. A friend of mine who is looking to become a breeder of a rare breed told me, "You will find out you are a bad person in more ways than you can even imagine" and she was right.

I've been lectured, scolded, "why won't you consider"-ed, all kinds of stuff. My husband - who didn't even initially want the dog and who was along for the ride as I chose our breeder and specified the kind of puppy I wanted - has gotten the same. Some of it was infuriating, some of it was ridiculous, some of it was hilarious in its stupidity.

At this point, my girl is here, and she's exactly what I wanted, and I know the work I did upfront and the relationship I forged with my breeder are what netted me this puppy. She's thoroughly won over my husband (if you ask her, the sun rises and sets on him). That's what really matters. Unfortunately I've walked out of this experience with a very negative view of a lot of rescue people, but I figure they're free to do what they want just as I am free to do what I want, and as long as those people leave me alone, I won't criticize them either and we're fine.

When people ask me where I got my dog, the default for many of them is, "Is she a rescue?" There is a big rescue culture here, which I found out when I started this process of finding a dog. I always answer honestly that she is not a rescue. I don't volunteer any info unless they specifically ask, but if they do ask if she's a rescue/which breeder, I'll tell them. Some people are fellow GSD owners who know the same people I do; others hold their nose in the air and sniff as though the puppy they were just gushing over is somehow automatically less cute because she isn't a rescue. It can get a little bizarre.

The most I think I would say if I needed to shut anyone down would be to comment, "A lot of people have let me know they feel that way" (Minnesotan for, "I've heard this eight million times and it's just as annoying when you say it") or, "We're happy with our choice" (aka, "No seriously, be quiet"). I've also felt free to just walk away from someone who won't just stop.


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