# Sudden fear aggression at 4 years old?



## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I apologize for the length but I'm panicking a bit because today, Sasha decided that people were scary again. Really scary. We were out doing some Christmas shopping and we went into the first store. Sasha loved everyone in this store and was a big hit with the kids as well as the adults. I always take cookies with me and she had a good, relaxed time doing tricks and getting pets. Second store we go into a lady from behind me starts talking to Sasha, typical "oooh, what a pretty puppy" type talk, and I turn around to tell Sasha to sit so the lady can give her a treat and before I could even turn around Sasha flipped out. Basically she did a pretty scary "bark and hold" (which she's not trained to do) right there in the shoe store. Although this obviously scared the **** out of this poor lady (and me too to be honest), I got Sasha's attention back and got her to calm down. Usually in the past when she gets nervous of a person, if she sees me give them a treat for them to give to her, then she's fine. She'll take a treat from them, sniff them, and then be totally fine. However, this time she wasn't having any of it and was still very jumpy and grumbly with the lady so I didn't push it. Sasha just kept staring her down and growling whenever she moved, even to move away from us! But the last thing I wanted to do was rush her out of the store and reward her actions. So I waited for her to calm down, talked to the lady for a moment (apologizing profusely), and left the store. I figured maybe it was the way the lady approached her (she was staring straight at her, kind of bent over, stupid lady probably didn't know any better ) and it would probably be an isolated incident, so I kicked myself for not being more aware and moved on. Well it wasn't and Sasha fully lost it, even expressing her anal glands, on every other person that came within 5 feet of us for the rest of the time until I finally did some obedience within view of people to attempt and "end on a good note" and took her home. 

When we first adopted her (at a year and a half), she definitely had more fear but we've worked really hard to get her through it and she's come a really long way. She goes pretty much everywhere with us as our area is very dog friendly and she loves her trips to our favorite stores. 
So a little bit of a run-down/my hypothesis...
- We recently moved and now my boyfriend and I are living apart for a few weeks until our new house is ready. This means she has been through a move and is also separated from me part time. This is probably a stressful factor.
- It's the holidays (obviously) and I know everyone is running a little higher right now. Another probable stressor.
- And the big possible factor is that she hadn't been off his family's property for a about a week and a half. (Other than for walks out on isolated country roads.)

So I guess my big questions are:
1) Can dogs regress that quickly if she is used to being around new people every single day and then she goes a little over a week without being around any new people?
2) Do we start over at square one now with the fear aggression? I'm not sure how to go about this because she is very intimidating and I don't feel good working on this in a public place that is unpredictable with her recent outbursts. When she barks at people she doesn't hold back and it is quite a scene. 
3) We are still saving up money to amputate her leg and could her pain be making her feel more vulnerable and putting her in a "I'm gonna get them before they try and get me" type mindset? 

I'm really upset about this because her love of people was always something that we could count on. We know she's a dog still and would never be careless about this but she's consistently loved people. Please help! Any suggestion's or advice would be greatly appreciated... We will do whatever it takes to get her through this.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this dog does not sound safe to take in to public. To express her anal glands shows you the extent of her fear -- that is being terrified for her life scared , and it seems that her response is to lash out in fear aggression. I don't think a dog that is nervous of people "loves people" . Don't put yourself in a position where something awful will happen and you will be liable .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I'm still getting over the fact that you took a GSD to a shoe store
I just can't see that happening in Australia.....you are allowed to take your dogs into stores Christmas shopping?? 
How do you supervise your dog while trying on shoes??
I live in a remote area and our nearest country town for Christmas shopping is chaotic at this time of year......I think you should just leave her at home....


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I have never understood the "take my dog everywhere" attitude. Why? Going to the park, for a run, etc. Good to take the dog. Going in stores, to big noisy festivals, games, etc.? I don't think most dogs would enjoy that. And why can't I enjoy an outing knowing that my dog is happy and safe at home?

I agree that your dog absolutely should not be put in those positions.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I fully agree that she won't be put in situations like this at least until we can trust her but I think what truly baffles me, and I think I'm having a hard time explaining is that she really does love people! Or did. I work at a local feed store and she goes to work with me and is wonderful with all the people that come in. I have worked in daycares, boarding facilities, and training centers for years and while I'm not a huge training expert, I do know dog behavior very well and am comfortable, and good at, reading dogs. If I had ever seen this type of fear or anxiety before, she would never have been put in this situation. I do know better than to set up my dogs for failure or any type of incident. But we've joked that while people are the most nervous of Sasha because of her breed, she is by far the most human social dog we have. 

And to answer the "go with us everywhere" question, this came about mostly out of necessity. When I was growing up the dogs were truly mine as my family were not dog people. We didn't have a fenced in yard and to keep my family from letting them out unattended, which they would do, the dogs got in the habit of just coming with me everywhere. And when I moved out on my own, the roommate situation meant the dogs were better off coming with me. Luckily, we live in an area where this is hardly strange and the dogs have up this point, really loved it. 

I do take the blame for this incident and feel terrible for putting her in the situation but... now what? I agree that this is a big deal and needs to be taken as a real sign from her but I need to know where to go from here. Is this trainer worthy? Or something we can handle with super slow desensitization?


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Oh, and they don't go with us place where I feel it would be too stressful for them or for us. This was a quiet local store. She'd been there many times before...


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I would engage her in an organized activity that she really enjoys to build self confidence. Maybe agility or tracking? I would back off for some time from introducing her to people in stores to let this incident fade in her memory. And would re-introduce slowly, maybe just walking around cheerfully. I would avoid series introductions with many different people. I would not enjoy either being hugged and petted by 4-5 strangers every time I visit a store. The way you described it, it did not sound like fun, but more like a military exercise


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

RebelGSD in case you missed this in the original post "3) We are still saving up money to amputate her leg and could her pain be making her feel more vulnerable and putting her in a "I'm gonna get them before they try and get me" type mindset? "
pretty well precludes agility or tracking .

Why does her leg need to be amputated?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Sorry, missed that one. Yes, the pain can make everyone cranky.
I would just back off with social life then until her health/pain is under better control. She cannot speak for herself but clearly she did not enjoy her last outing. If I were in pain I would not be hugging strangers at the store either.
Btw I did foster a tripod who moved like a cat and was much more agile than most four legged dogs. That is an exception though


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Some things to think about. First you said "Sasha decided that people were scary again. Really scary." and "When we first adopted her (at a year and a half), she definitely had more fear but we've worked really hard to get her through it and she's come a really long way"
So somewhere along the way the "people loving dog" ? " Usually in the past when she gets nervous of a person" , had, has , some issues , which were covered by conditioning her into accepting people and getting a biscuit treat as a reward. But when an animal is stressed it will always revert back to its natural state , which was a fear of people. Something is pressuring this animal into this state whether it be the performance of sit pretty for a treat to amuse onlookers , when whe would rather not, or pain , where she would prefer some distance and rest and privacy , and not be dragged to bustling stores, probably with sensory overload with canned muzak and lots of lighting and high lighting . 

" stupid lady probably didn't know any better ) " but you are in a public space . I and others are pretty surprised that your dog was even able to get so much public access . The store has to ensure the safety of its patrons. The patrons of that store are there to buy shoes, not to be dog experts . 

"Well it wasn't and Sasha fully lost it, even expressing her anal glands, on every other person that came within 5 feet of us for the rest of the time until I finally did some obedience within view of people to attempt and "end on a good note" and took her home. "
This is the extent of the dogs terror . Instead of quietly going away with some sensitivity to the dogs state she keeps getting exposed to people and she keeps blowing her tanks , and then gets obedience on top of it , being shamed with public watching , when in such a distressed state this is more stress. 
I think you are lucky that your dog did not bite you .

Please be sensitive and realistic about your dogs inner workings . She is a fearful dog who tried her best to cope till the last straw broke the camel's back.

Create an area at your home where you can leave her to get some rest . I would not take her out into public and force her to be friendly. I think you will be sorry if you tried . 
I think the dog will be what the dog is and was . I think you need to realize this and take measures to ensure that no harm comes to her by her biting someone -- for any reason.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with Carmen, the dogs genetic temperament can't be trained out. You have to manage such a dog and not put her in positions where she is over her threshold. Sad that dogs like this can't live the life that _we_ want, but the can be happy and well adjusted in their own little world. Onyx is this way, and I wish so much I could take her out and about, but she clearly can't deal like a dog with solid nervebase could.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Carmen, her leg needs to be amputated because she was diagnosed with fibrosarcoma about a year ago and since then has also developed some pretty bad muscular issues because of the location of the tumor and damage done by the initial biopsy. Financially, and in my opinion the best option for Sasha, is to amputate her rear leg. As far as getting her involved in structured activities, we did some agility until the cancer "happened," and she loves obedience work so we do as much of that as possible. Since we've gotten her I've done several obedience classes and I was getting ready to possibly start doing some fun competitions with her but the vet bills drained all our dog funds so that's been put on hold for a while. She passed her CGC test with flying colors and obedience work really seems to be fun for her. I believe the pain has been getting worse however and we will need to figure out a way to do something soon. I would be inclined to believe that her being in pain definitely isn't helping the situation. 

I appreciate all the input and advice given about Sasha. I have taken it all to heart and really needed to hear it from people that are experienced with this breed. She has never been at this recent level of fear so I was taken a little aback with how to deal with it. All other "outbursts" have been very manageable and mild. 

But with our limited knowledge about her lines, her history, and even her current health situation, we are learning new things everyday. I'm counting my blessings that this situation didn't end very differently and from now on, our life with Sasha is once again going to be very different than what we thought. But I guess that's part of owning a dog, huh? I don't think I've ever had a dog throw me so many curve balls... it's hard to keep up sometimes. Again, thank you all for being so tolerant and helpful as I stumble through what is Sasha


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am terribly sorry to hear that . 
In the meantime you are going to have to understand that your dog probably feels her vulnerability and wants distance. Give her peace and quiet out of the public so that she isn't stressed ,depleted of energy so that her immune system doesn't crash and allow the cancer to spread .
Do you have a vet that can address alternative health management until you are ready to take the next step.
If so ask them about concentrated curcumin , or the benefits of some cancer retardants such as the tocotrienols of complex vit E , such as gamma tocotrienol 3 . 
Ask about mushroom powders , marine phytonutrients , ellagitannins . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I am terribly sorry to hear that .
> In the meantime you are going to have to understand that your dog probably feels her vulnerability and wants distance. Give her peace and quiet out of the public so that she isn't stressed ,depleted of energy so that her immune system doesn't crash and allow the cancer to spread .
> Do you have a vet that can address alternative health management until you are ready to take the next step.
> If so ask them about concentrated curcumin , or the benefits of some cancer retardants such as the tocotrienols of complex vit E , such as gamma tocotrienol 3 .
> ...


I'm not sure our vet is familiar with any of the alternative treatments simply because she's wonderful and I think she would have brought them up without me asking about them. Is it something I could research and try on my own or do I need to find someone to work with? CSU does have a "holistic healing" department but it's pretty new and the oncology vet we've been working with said they mostly deal with pain management. We are game for pretty much anything as long as it won't keep us financially from saving up for her surgery if still necessary. We just don't want to keep draining our funds just to keep ending up in the same position  

I do agree with you though about giving her space and time to be relaxed. At home she has her own area, bed, and crate (which she loves) and we don't ask much of her at home other than just being well mannered. We'll just continue this and limit her "outings" to stress-free situations. It's times like this I wish we had those collars on the movie "Up" that lets dogs speak english  It would make all this so much easier...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

something as simple and inexpensive as MSM can be a pain killer .Fibrosarcoma | Pet Clinics in Royal Oak, Michigan, Animal Hospitals in Oakland County, Michigan - Clawson, Ferndale, Birmingham

curcumin *
12 AGGARWAL​​​​ET AL.​
*Second, curcumin has also been to shown to suppress the invasion of tumors
through the downregulation of matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs) and cell surface
adhesion molecules​​​​134_,_208_,_220_,_301_,_302_,_340_,_346_,_500–507 Third, curcumin suppresses the
angiogenesis of tumors through the suppression of angiogeneic cytokines.508–512​
Fourth, the anti-inflammatory effects of curcumin contribute to its antitumor​activity as well.39–

Carmen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

..... and then after I went to bed I kept thinking about this --- very common to Leonbegers , Labs. 
I then had a A HAH ! moment . Many of these sarcomas are at the injection site . In another thread I provided some links where there are recommendations to vets to vaccinate in an area that can be sacrificed .


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

As I read this thread, what strikes me is how hard this dog has tried to be social, to be friendly and schmooze with strangers, all in order to please you. The fact that she had fear issues when you got her, and you were able to bring her to a place where she could go out in public and "love" people, is nothing short of extraordinary. What a good dog. She was able to put aside her fears.

But now, that leg must be causing her pain, enough that her tolerance to stress is greatly reduced and she is easily overburdened by additional stressors. Where she was able to handle the social outings before, she simply cannot now. 

I don't think this dog should ever be put in a situation where she is expected to "love" people; she does it because it pleases you, not because it pleases her. Of course, you had no way of knowing this, to all appearances, it looked like she had simply "gotten over" her fears and insecurities. But now you know. It's too bad that dogs can't simply tell us in plain English how they are feeling about things. Now that you think back on it, you can probably think of times where she was trying to tell you "I'm not sure about this, I'm feeling very insecure", and you simply told her "It's all right Sasha, you can do this", and she said "Okay Mom, for you, I will do it."


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes FreeStep. 
you don't need " It's times like this I wish we had those collars on the movie "Up" that lets dogs speak english  " Sashadog , the dog has been communicating with you in DOG . No English needed . Please look at it from your dogs view point.

The day that she had the incident might have been a perfect storm , just too much of everything, not feeling well, pain , too much social pressure -- headache -- yes dogs can and do get stress headaches and migraines . That the dog blew its anal sacs shows you the extreme distress it was in. 

Don't make your outings stress free to you , be sensitive to what is stressful to the dog.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I am looking at it from the dogs point of view and I said that comment about "Up" because in this case, that would've made things a whole lot simpler and I would also love to know exactly how she's feeling/coping with her cancer. I am desperate to understand just what's going on with her physical and mentally but I'm still learning and this is my only real "GSD resource." 

When we first adopted her, I guess I *wrongly* believed that at a year and half she was still coming out of a fear stage in which random things warranted barking at before investigating but we worked really hard with her, never letting her outbursts mean that she got to run away but not pushing it either. Just standing close to that scary rock until she got up the nerve to sniff it and realize on her own that it wasn't something to be scared of. She's never had outbursts at random people like this so thats why I was so surprised this time. Yes, every once and a while while we were out on a walk a big man in a hat and large coat would make her nervous but we've never had an issue like this before. I just took her out with me like this over the past couple years to make sure that her fear issues wouldn't translate to humans. I thought we were doing well, but I pushed her too far. 

Unfortunately this recent situation was too much for her and I failed to recognize her initial anxiety. It won't happen again. I appreciate all your advice and comments but please also know that I'm trying very hard to do whats best for her and I already feel bad for putting her in a situation where she was under so much stress. I don't need to continue to be reminded how blind I was to the true situation. Please, encouragement and advice from this point on? That is what would be truly helpful


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

sashadog said:


> I appreciate all your advice and comments but please also know that I'm trying very hard to do whats best for her and I already feel bad for putting her in a situation where she was under so much stress. I don't need to continue to be reminded how blind I was to the true situation. Please, encouragement and advice from this point on? That is what would be truly helpful


I hope my post didn't make you feel bad... like I said, you had no way of knowing. You were doing the right things in helping her overcome her fears, and she is such a good dog for trying so hard and wanting to please you so much. Sasha herself was being very courageous in spite of her own feelings, being stoic, and somewhat masking her own fears. I am sure it appeared that she had simply gotten over it, and was not feeling any stress when asked to be social. Hindsight is 20/20.

Even we humans often suck it up to face things that make us feel uncomfortable, so much so that we can fool other people into thinking we're more outgoing or fearless than we actually are. I guess even dogs can fool us humans sometimes.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Sashadog...everything you have done in the past and present, is because of the love you have for your dog....I applaud you for your commitment.
Now...with what you have learned and "experienced".....you will offer a "better" less stressed life for her.....again, because you love her.
We all make mistakes especially because of lack of experience and out of blind love......realizing what mistakes we have made, and learning from them.....creates an "eyes wide open" kinda love.
JMO
Best wishes to you and Sasha.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Thank you everyone... I think I took everyones posts a little harder than was meant. I was a bit frustrated as it was and shouldn't have taken the comments so personally, sorry about that... too much stress at once got to me  Thank you for all your support and I am happy to report that she is enjoying the holidays up in the mountains and loving running around the woods and lounging in front of the fire, with no strangers in sight  Good break for all of us! 

We are getting in touch with a trainer after the holidays and are going to figure out what she needs and how we can make a more peaceful life for all of us. Thank you once again for helping us during a rough patch and I will keep you all posted.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Excellent ! -


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