# I think I got ripped off by a breeder.



## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

Ok so I bought Simba a couple of days ago. I went to the breeders facility, he is a hobby breeder and stays at home for the time being. The reason I'm suspicious is the fact that he does not hip test or title. He says his dogs are show/work lines, and they are kept in (clean) kennels. I saw the father, also named Simba, and he was a very phenomenal well trained dog. I called some people who purchased from this breeder, and they said they bought two dogs from him, one lived to 15 with no problems, the other is a puppy. When approached about the hip testing, he told me that he used to hip test, but some dogs still got HD, so he stopped. He also said he didn't want to have to wait until two years old to breed. When showing me the puppy I was to buy, (the last one left) he explained to me how tough he was. To prove this, he decided to pick him up from the skin of his neck, (you know that way of carrying from the hair) and noted how the puppy is "holding in his pain". When asked about why he doesn't title, he explained that titled dogs are not smart, they are just trained, and how he once bought a 10 thousand dollar schutzhund dog before, and how he was garbage. When asked if for whatever reason we cannot keep the dog, will you take it back? He said no, but will help replace it. What do you think? Have I been ripped?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

You haven't been ripped off. He was straightforward with you about all he does/doesn't do with his dogs. You knew he didn't title or check hips, and you bought the puppy anyway. That isn't his fault. If health tests and titles were important to you, then you should have looked elsewhere for a puppy.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Depends on how much you paid for the pup, does he register with the AKC?
The "holding his pain" comment is bizarre.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> You haven't been ripped off. He was straightforward with you about all he does/doesn't do with his dogs. You knew he didn't title or check hips, and you bought the puppy anyway. That isn't his fault. If health tests and titles were important to you, then you should have looked elsewhere for a puppy.


If he is right, I do not care about that stuff. My concern is not of its importance to me, but it's relevance to health.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I agree with Gypsyghost, he was upfront with you and you still bought the dog.. You knew what you were getting... That being said, you might have the best dog ever born (actually I have 2) who does everything you ever want is long lived and healthy... The time to do the research is BEFORE the purchase of a pup, not after as the cool off period can be pretty quick once you start reading and learning what else is out there... Hope the pup is amazing for you


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

Gretchen said:


> Depends on how much you paid for the pup, does he register with the AKC?
> The "holding his pain" comment is bizarre.


I paid 2,000 dollars, we have the AKC reg. (Didn't fill it out yet) and pedigree. I thought it was pretty unusual too.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

Hineni7 said:


> I agree with Gypsyghost, he was upfront with you and you still bought the dog.. You knew what you were getting... That being said, you might have the best dog ever born (actually I have 2) who does everything you ever want is long lived and healthy... The time to do the research is BEFORE the purchase of a pup, not after as the cool off period can be pretty quick once you start reading and learning what else is out there... Hope the pup is amazing for you


I bought the pup because I admired his behavior, and if he was to turn out like his dad I would be extremely pleased. I am overall happy with the puppy as of now. What made me suspicious is the "look how tough he is, doesn't cry when I carry him " statement


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

My main question is, is he right about hips and titling and the puppy holding in his "pain"


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Raquan said:


> My main question is, is he right about hips and titling and the puppy holding in his "pain"


In my opinion, no. He's not right. Titling your dogs proves their temperament. Schutzhund dogs are most definitely not stupid. Checking hips proves that you are not breeding dysplastic dogs. It doesn't guarantee the puppies will have solid temperaments or good hips, of course, but it gives a better chance than breeding a nerve bag with hip dysplasia.

But still, he didn't rip you off by making these statements. He said them, you still bought the puppy.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

what did you pay 2K for??


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> Raquan said:
> 
> 
> > My main question is, is he right about hips and titling and the puppy holding in his "pain"
> ...


And I have no regrets


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Raquan said:


> I paid 2,000 dollars, we have the AKC reg. (Didn't fill it out yet) and pedigree. I thought it was pretty unusual too.


 Six years ago our female was $1200 and males went for $1500 for working line GSDs. The parents were registered with AKC. The price included 4 free training sessions and a few future vaccinations.
Maybe you paid a bit more than most considering you don't have a health guarantee. What was your gut feeling? Were the kennels clean? Did the dogs look healthy? Did the pup get any socialization and seemed well cared for?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Raquan said:


> And I have no regrets


That is wonderful for you.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

Gretchen said:


> Raquan said:
> 
> 
> > I paid 2,000 dollars, we have the AKC reg. (Didn't fill it out yet) and pedigree. I thought it was pretty unusual too.
> ...


I forgot to mention, there was a two year health garentee. The kennels were clean, parents together and puppies in a separate dark room. He had a sort of agility course for the dogs. The dogs look healthy for sure, his dad is beautiful. That's an amazing price you got!


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Raquan said:


> I forgot to mention, there was a two year health garentee. The kennels were clean, parents together and puppies in a separate dark room. He had a sort of agility course for the dogs. The dogs look healthy for sure, his dad is beautiful. That's an amazing price you got!


Sounds good to me, hope your pup turns out amazing like his father.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I'm confused. If there is a health guarantee, and everything was clean and you liked the dogs and you like your puppy, why are you concerned that you have been ripped off?


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> I'm confused. If there is a health guarantee, and everything was clean and you liked the dogs and you like your puppy, why are you concerned that you have been ripped off?


The fact that the puppy holding in his pain is not true. Either the breeder is uneducated, or eager to sell, both not good characteristics. Even though he informed me he is not eager to sell.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Breeding before 2 years old and no OFA of hips/elbows is irresponsible to the breed. So is no work/show title to a lesser degree. That breeder shouldn't breed GSD's imho. I wouldn't have paid $2k for that pup. Hope it turns out to be great pup!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

ausdland said:


> Breeding before 2 years old and no OFA of hips/elbows is irresponsible to the breed. So is no work/show title to a lesser degree. That breeder shouldn't breed GSD's imho. I wouldn't have paid $2k for that pup. Hope it turns out to be great pup!


The not wanting to wait until two years to breed, is what struck me also. I would definitely have a problem with that.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

This person doesn't sound like a good/responsible/educated breeder to me, but that is different than someone ripping you off. That is all I was saying.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

At this point, if you are not returning the dog, you deal with the dog you have in front of you. This baby deserves to be well taken care of and taught house rules and obedience trained. The bond you can form is dependent on you. Buying a puppy is not like buying a car. There are a lot of unknowns when dealing with a live animal. Even the best breeders may produce a dog with health or temperament issues.

Many on the forum would not consider my breeder a "good" one. I absolutely adored my boy's mother. I would have bought her. I see many traits in my 2.5 year old GSD that I saw in her. If you liked the sire of your puppy, that is a good thing.

Good luck with your new family member.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Raquan said:


> If he is right, I do not care about that stuff. My concern is not of its importance to me, but it's relevance to health.



Noble concern......but that ship has already set sail since your window of opportunity has passed. Your concerns regarding health tests would be part of your due diligence before you put your money down......

Buyer's remorse will be of no benefit going forward until you get another GSD..... Did you get ripped off ?....I'm guessing in a year from now.....you wouldn't sell your dog for $10K.


SuperG


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

As others have said, you didn't get ripped off because the breeder was entirely upfront with you. 
However, if what you are asking is "is this breeder full of poop?" the answer is "YES"

The picking the puppy up by the scruff of the neck is an old old old wives tale. It was believed that if a puppy squealed when picked up, he was a "weaker" pup. And one that was still was a stoic solid pup. In the end, however, it doesn't mean anything at all. It means that the puppy didn't squeal when it was picked up at this time.

As for the hips and elbows, he's definitely full of it. Yes, a dog that has good hips/elbows can still produce a puppy that has issues. That's because it is not entirely proven what causes HD and ED. That is part of why testing ALL breeding stock as well as as many siblings, prodigy, cousins, aunts, uncles as possible is so important. As an example, you have dog "A" with good hips. All known relatives have good or excellent hips. Dog "B" has excellent hips but many of the known relatives have fair or poor hips. Which dog is the best choice for breeding with the greatest likelihood of producing healthy pups? So to say "I don't check" merely means "I don't want to know if any of my dogs have an issue. I'm going to just breed them" The only way to know if a dog has HD is to xray. Many dogs will not show symptoms until in their senior years, long after they have been bred.

For the not wanting to wait until 2 years old to breed, again, highly irresponsible. That means "I dont' care that this female is still a baby herself and still growing. I'm going to breed her anyway"

As for the titles. Can a dog get titles simply by being repeatedly worked so that it basically memorizes a pattern? Yes, that is true. Do some dogs take many many attempts to earn a title while another "better" dog may achieve it on the first try? Yes. But that is part of the importance of titles - what you learn about the dog while striving for that achievement. You will learn the dog's weaknesses and strengths. You will learn what you need to improve in the next generation of dogs to get what you are looking for and have info to help decide what is the best pair to breed.


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## SadTales (Jul 20, 2016)

Personally I wouldn't of paid $2,000 for a pup without OFA and other things i'm looking for. What he was saying though, complete nonsense in terms of holding the puppy by the scruff and "holding his pain" ... Pups are carried by the scruff, so that feeling is 'natural' for them, so, chances of them not squealing is probably pretty high.

Did you meet the mother, was she friendly, and healthy looking? 

You said the kennels were clean, and you got 2 yr health gurantee, and the father of the litter was amazing, I think your puppy will be perfectly fine and a quality pup, despite the breeder being a hobby breeder.

I say for the future, get your pups hips tested and elbow tested.
Any who. It seems like you're very happy with your pup, as long as he didn't sell you a nerve bag pup for that price, with any health issues, you're fine. I spent $1,800 on my pup, and despite him being healthy, he has very bad nerves.. Very bad (fear aggressive already at 4 months.)

Focus on that bond  enjoy your adorable puppy, saw your picture of him, gorgeous dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The title does not make the dog more or less intelligent. The dog is what it is. Does the breeder know what it is? That is the question. I have a schutzhund titled dog that is less intelligent than some of my other dogs. She is more intelligent than some of them. The titling process helps people with many dogs know what they have in that respect only -- those aspects that titled (assuming schutzhund here) tests: courage, nerve, biddability, instinct, and so forth. It certainly does not mean the bitch won't walk through her poop or lay in it, or that other dogs you have had figured out the doggy door quicker, or could work themselves out of situation sooner. But it can give you plenty of information. I did not title mine, so I worked with her my self and took her to some classes. 

The point is the guy did not lie or misrepresent when he told you the statements he told you. He bought a schutzhund dog that he felt was stupid. Very possible. 

He's mixing show lines and working lines. This means the pup you get is going to have a mixture of traits that both are bred specifically for, only you do not know what they will be. Your dog can have the energy and drive of a working line dog, or the energy and drives typical of a show line, and so forth. It might look somewhere in-between a show and a working line. It might favor one or the other. 

As for HD and ED, yeah, you can get bad hips or elbows even out of good/excellent and normal. Furthermore, the Germans have been testing hips for many generations, and you would think if they could eliminate it by breeding it out, it would have happened, but it has not. So, the guy has a point. I don't know if we want to throw out the baby with the bathwater though. More information is better. 

Waiting for 2 years. For a female that seems more important than for the male, as her body and her demeaner has a lot more to do with the process than the male. This could be a deal breaker for me if it was the bitch. The dog, well it would be depend on the reason. It won't hurt a dog to be bred earlier. And they used to hip score at 12 months and breed regularly prior to 2 years. 

The thing is, there are no guaranties, only warranties. All the breeder can guaranty you of, is that the dog will get ill at some point and will pass away if it isn't put down sooner, or meets with an accident. Good breeders work toward making that moment of loss be as far away as possible with decent health along the way. The problem is, it is a living breathing creature, and a lot of the dog's health has to do with what you feed it, when and whether you neuter, what pesticides you put into it, what you allow it to get into and do. And, what the genetic cards have in store for it. 

You did not get ripped off. You are happy. Be happy. The time to question the breeder was before you took a pup home.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

The title of this thread: *I think I got ripped off by a breeder.
*and the quote below - 


Raquan said:


> And I have no regrets


do not make sense.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> The title does not make the dog more or less intelligent. The dog is what it is. Does the breeder know what it is? That is the question. I have a schutzhund titled dog that is less intelligent than some of my other dogs. She is more intelligent than some of them. The titling process helps people with many dogs know what they have in that respect only -- those aspects that titled (assuming schutzhund here) tests: courage, nerve, biddability, instinct, and so forth. It certainly does not mean the bitch won't walk through her poop or lay in it, or that other dogs you have had figured out the doggy door quicker, or could work themselves out of situation sooner. But it can give you plenty of information. *I did not title mine so I worked with her my self and took her to some classes.*


Titles are what most responsible breeders strive for so they can assess the breeding stocks strengths and weaknesses to make breeding decisions. It tells them so much about the dog so they can choose the right partner to complement theirs. Importing a titled dog does not give a breeder that info. Nor does it prove anything if said breeder uses 'title's' as a marketing tool. 
As far as this situation goes...no way would I give money to someone that is shortcutting this breed. I want to support responsible breeders that try to get it right. Not those that won't health test or work their dogs for whatever reason. There are plenty of good breeders that do it right, and way too many that just breed for...greed


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

look at previous posts. he's just ruffling feathers guys.

*yawn*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> Titles are what most responsible breeders strive for so they can assess the breeding stocks strengths and weaknesses to make breeding decisions. It tells them so much about the dog so they can choose the right partner to complement theirs. Importing a titled dog does not give a breeder that info. Nor does it prove anything if said breeder uses 'title's' as a marketing tool.
> As far as this situation goes...no way would I give money to someone that is shortcutting this breed. I want to support responsible breeders that try to get it right. Not those that won't health test or work their dogs for whatever reason. There are plenty of good breeders that do it right, and way too many that just breed for...greed


If you want to compete in schutzhund, than titles in that venue would certainly be something to look for. It isn't necessary for show-line dogs, breeders can certainly assess temperament without doing schutzhund. I think going through the process and titling dogs in any venue is worthwhile. What is also important is what others are doing with the puppies that you produce. Breeders can become so used to their own dogs' strengths and weaknesses that they may over-look things that people trying to raise and train their dogs find troublesome. 

I really don't have a problem with people sending dogs to be titled by others, or by purchasing a titled dog. In fact, if you are intending on breeding, it makes sense to buy a dog that is already started.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

What is important is what you do with the dog now that you have him.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Fodder said:


> look at previous posts. he's just ruffling feathers guys.
> 
> *yawn*


I'm curious how the 90lb neighbor with the pitbull is?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Raquan said:


> My main question is, is he right about hips and titling and the puppy holding in his "pain"


You shouldn't ever pick your dog up by the scruff. This does not prove he's tough. And you shouldnt even expect anything from the pup in the form of "toughness" until hes at least 6 months old. He is still a baby, would you test a 1 yr old child's toughness? Of coarse not. 
The hips testing is a way of predicting the offspring's chances of getting HD. If both parents are clear, chances are the pups will be also, but its not 100%. 
If you want a tough dog all I would do is expose him to as much different places, sounds, things as possible. To me (and pretty much any experienced dog owner out there) a tough dog is a confident dog, and just like with anything in life; you gain confidence by experiencing the situation as much as possible.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

selzer said:


> If you want to compete in schutzhund, than titles in that venue would certainly be something to look for. *It isn't necessary for show-line dogs, breeders can certainly assess temperament without doing schutzhund*. I think going through the process and titling dogs in any venue is worthwhile. What is also important is what others are doing with the puppies that you produce. Breeders can become so used to their own dogs' strengths and weaknesses that they may over-look things that people trying to raise and train their dogs find troublesome.
> 
> I really don't have a problem with people sending dogs to be titled by others, or by purchasing a titled dog. In fact, if you are intending on breeding, it makes sense to buy a dog that is already started.


I did not post IPO or schutzhund...I said titles. Herding, IPO, agility... 

Showline breeders don't need to title their dogs, why? 

There is more to this breed than temperament and conformation. Work ethic, hunt drive and biddability are strengths/or can be a weakness if lacking those traits. 
I'd still support buying from a breeder that actually works, and titles their dogs over one that buys titled dogs to breed. Of course looking at what they've produced previously(as well as the sire) is a given as well.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

ok...but the OP made a choice to buy untitled dogs that were not hip certified-he was not ripped off He made a choice


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

Fodder said:


> look at previous posts. he's just ruffling feathers guys.
> 
> *yawn*


If you don't have a beneficial, worthwhile input, then I don't see a reason for commenting. You're the one that's "ruffling feathers."
Good day


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with the others who have said, the breeder was upfront and told you exactly what you were getting..You did not get ripped off by the breeder. To pay 2000 for a puppy out of non health tested parents is a ridiculous price to pay..While hip/elbow tested parents are not a guarantee on puppies, it's atleast showing the breeder is responsible in his breeding program.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I paid $100 for my dog and she was health tested, papered, fixed, potty trained and had all her shots. Thank you Rescue! >


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

shepherdmom said:


> I paid $100 for my dog and she was health tested, papered, fixed, potty trained and had all her shots. Thank you Rescue! >


What kind of health tests do rescues do? 

Dogs can have severe HD and display no signs. Did they xray her hips? Does she carry DM from her sire and dam? What other tests did they do?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ most likely an owner surrender and the information was available. similar situation for me, paid $32 :groovy:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so how do you like your dog?

is he a good dog? 

what are you trying to do ? 

do you have some ulterior motive ?

If you felt taken advantage of , and I don't know why because you knew up front exactly what the breeder's practice was, then why do you not return the dog?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can't have this dog for the next dozen years gripping about something. 
Apparently this is possible as you yourself did contact a customer of this breeder --- quote "I called some people who purchased from this breeder, and they said they bought two dogs from him, one lived to 15 with no problems, the other is a puppy. "


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What kind of health tests do rescues do?
> 
> Dogs can have severe HD and display no signs. Did they xray her hips? Does she carry DM from her sire and dam? What other tests did they do?


The rescue did in fact x-ray her hips. They didn't test for DM but she went to the vet and had a complete work-up, blood work, dental and the like. It was doing the x-ray for the hips that they found she had a stone in her stomach the size of a quarter and they removed that as well.


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