# Barf bad for puppies?



## MoRooney (Aug 20, 2008)

Long story short my brother took his 6 month old doberman to the vet for a check up and the vet found that his calcium and phosphorous were WAY to high. She indicated this was due to his diet and went on to explain to my brother that this can be very bad on the puppy as it will make his bones grow to fast causing big problems in the future. He is/was feeding BARF which consisted of chicken carcass as the RMB and ground beef,turkey, and lamb as the MM. I am feeding the exact same thing to my 12 week old GSD so I am very concerned I am harming his development. Any ideas on what I can do to prevent this? Any ideas as to why this happened? Thanks


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Many people have raised puppies on raw. I have raised my Chinese Crested girl from 12 weeks of age on raw. My friend is a Rottie breeders and she WEANS her pups to raw.

Done right it is a safe and natural way for a puppy/dog to eat.

First I would want to know exactly what were the values on the report. At 6 months of age does your brother SEE any growth-related problems? How big is the Dobe at 6 months and how does that compare to other 6 month old Dobe puppies (I don't know Dobes)?

What exactly was he feeding and in what amounts?


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

I have raised puppies on raw, some from weaning, some from 8 weeks. I have not had a problem with any of them growth wise. I feaed a "prey model" diet using meaty edible bones - ie chicken quarters, pork brisket or spare ribs, lamb necks, fish, tripe and organ meat. Too much bone makes the calcium aspect too high, too much meat and the phoserous is too high. Green tripe had a near perfect calcium phosphorous ratio. I do feed the pups more meals with meaty bones as oppsed to meat only meals and have not had a problem. There are also ground products you can add to the diet to get some "species" you don't have access to like bison, vension etc with bone mixed in. I have found that the poop is a good indicator of whether or not your diet has a proper balance of meat/bone for that dog, Too much bone - constipation too little soft stool or diarrhea.


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## Annikas Mom (Jun 10, 2004)

It is a fine balance for sure but I also start my pups on raw at weaning or when I bring them home from a breeder. I also would like to know what the values are, some vets hear raw and go off the deep end... I am not sure how much research you have done on raw to know what the ratios need to be. You could feed a pre-mixed balanced raw diet if you are not 100% sure of what and how you should be feeding. Variety is very important in a raw diet. Laurie's website is a great resource for raw feeding!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

BUN and creatinine values can appear unnaturally high if a raw-fed dog has recently eaten before a blood test.

Would that be the same for Calcium and Phosphorous? If the pup had eaten recently, is it possible that these levels might appear to be "too high" (because the norms are set for a kibble fed dog)? 

Maybe a fasting blood test would be in order. 

I had my GSD pup blood tested frequently throughout his puppyhood (I was terrified I was doing BARF wrong) and his blood tests always came back fine. But he used to get car sick riding to the vet's office, so his blood tests were always fasting bloodwork. 

Just a question for the experts. I honestly have no idea.


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## MoRooney (Aug 20, 2008)

I do not know the exact value of the reports off hand I will post them when I have them, all I know is the vet said they were way off. That being said I know this vet really does not like him feeding raw in the first place. As for what he gave the dobe, it was 1.5 to 2 Lbs of food per day which consisted of chicken carcass as well as ground beef,turkey, and lamb. He would feed the dobe twice a day splitting the RMB and MM between meals. My guy is going to the vet this next week anyways for his next round of shots but I'm worried the vet may be over reacting due to the fact that she disapproves of the BARF diet.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I missed that - WHY did the vet do bloodwork on a 6 month old pup?

I'd be willing to bet money that it wasn't until AFTER they heard what the owner was feeding that they insisted on the bloodwork.

Does the Dobe show any signs of growth problems? At 6 months if there was a problem that bad it would be noticable.


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## MoRooney (Aug 20, 2008)

No the dobe looks good but the other day he was very lethargic and was shaking a lot so my brother took him to the vet and she insisted on blood work because she thought he may have had a liver problems. Turns out he is healthy but she was very concerned about his calcium and phosphorous levels.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

I do diets differently than most everyone here. 

Basically there are guidelines written by the National Research Council on the nutrients required of dogs. I use these guidelines and create a diet around them. I have only worked with the adult guidelines, but know they have puppy guidelines in the same book.

I posted details here if you are interested, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428679#Post428679

You only have one chance to grow a puppy right and for me personally I wouldn't leave the lifetime health of my dog up to a guessing game of variety of foods.

One other thing- about the blood tests for nutrients- they only measure the circulating amounts of calcium and phosphorous- not what is being stored. I wonder how good of a measure these tests are at telling us a diet is good or bad?

"Fact of the Month
Healthy puppies can have ‘abnormal’ blood test results and activities"

http://www.monicasegal.com/newsletters/2008-02NL.php

"Myth of the Month
Blood test results show nutrient levels"

http://www.monicasegal.com/newsletters/2006-05NL.php


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## Tula (May 21, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: MoRooneyAs for what he gave the dobe, it was 1.5 to 2 Lbs of food per day which consisted of chicken carcass as well as ground beef,turkey, and lamb.


Please clarify, is that Chicken Carcass as well as ground beef, ground turkey and ground lamb?


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## MoRooney (Aug 20, 2008)

Yes it is. He uses the carcass as his RMB and the rest as his MM.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have successfully weaned 3 litters (my 3rd generation raw fed were born in Feb) and raised countless puppies on raw (including what is known as BARF). It is not the diet per say as it could be how the diet is being done. I would be feeding this puppy more RMB than just chicken and then chunk meat, heart instead of ground meat. Do you know if he is feeding any organ meat (liver, kidney, etc)? I also throw in things on occasion like sweet potatoes when I eat them, some of my left over's. I feed a lot of eggs, canned fish, tripe once in awhile (when I can stand to feed it), salmon body oils and Vit E. Friend of mine also feeds Vit C. 

If you already answered some of these questions please forgive the repeats. I didn't have time to read the whole thread.


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## MoRooney (Aug 20, 2008)

He was waiting to add the OM and other foods because it originally gave the dobe the runs. I experienced the same prob with my GSD. Im feeding him basically the same diet but he appears to be growing fine and enjoying his food. I am going to add OM and other foods starting next week. Thanks for the input


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Ok, he needs to check the ACTUAL WEIGHTS of everything he's feeding. If the chicken carcass (which usually has very little meat left on it) is making up more than 50% of the total amount fed - then he's overfeeding bone and that could explain those levels being off.


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## MoRooney (Aug 20, 2008)

Yea I think what your saying is right on. The carcass is pure bone so that is most likely the problem. I cant convince him to go back raw so I will adjust what im feeding. Thanks all for the input


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I have a link thats from a research study on differing lab values in raw fed dogs, I'll post it later but right now I'm not home. Seems like the problem has been figured out but its a good link to have bookmarked, I found it when my dog was having kidney problems and his BUN was crazy high.


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## MoRooney (Aug 20, 2008)

great thanks alot!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LinI have a link thats from a research study on differing lab values in raw fed dogs, I'll post it later but right now I'm not home. Seems like the problem has been figured out but its a good link to have bookmarked, I found it when my dog was having kidney problems and his BUN was crazy high.


Here's the link: http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/doddsnutrition.html

It doesn't mention levels of phosphorus and calcium, but says that except for the mentioned ones levels were the same as kibble fed dogs.

Here's the result of the research:


> Quotereliminary statistical comparisons of results for the raw and cereal-based diets found them to be essentially the same with the following notable exceptions:
> 
> 
> • Higher packed cell volume (hematocrit) in all raw diet fed groups (range of 51.0 ± 6.6 – 53.5 ± 5.6 %) versus cereal-based kibble (47.6 ± 6.1 %).
> ...


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## DanL (Jun 30, 2005)

We fed our Dane pup raw from the day she came home, and she grew slower than kibble fed dogs. It was much easier to keep her lean as well.


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