# Shine gone from coat, itchy



## BrunoWagner (Apr 28, 2015)

Hi folks,

I have been feeding my dog raw food for about 8 months now and, until now, he'd been doing great. He loves chow time, he put on some much needed weight, he is very regular with his bowl movements, and his poop seems to have a perfect consistency (not too soft, not too hard). The latter was a mess when he was on kibble and he would not eat nearly enough because either he didn't like it, or it upset his stomach, or both. No matter which brand I tried.

A little bit of background on him. He is 5-1/2 years old and very active and healthy. Only in the last few days I began to notice that his coat has lost some of the shine that he used to have and lately he has been scratching a lot. He is on Frontline Plus and has no fleas or ticks. My concern is that some signs of deficiencies in his diet might be beginning to rear their ugly heads, and I wanted to tackle them ASAP. So I figured I'd tell you the ingredients of the recipe I make him to see if you can spot something that might be missing, which might be causing the above-mentioned symptoms. So here it goes.

Raw Chicken (70% of total food ration)
Other (30% of total food ration)
Other is made up of:
Veggies, 2-1/2 lbs. (green beans, broccoli, and carrots)
Apples, 12 oz.
Large eggs, 5 (with shells pulverized and added)
Flax seed, 6 oz.
Yogurt, plain, 6 oz.
Kelp powder, 2 oz.

I was giving him rice for a bit, but he could not digest it so well and I was noticing a lot of mucous. So a few months ago I replaced the rice with more veggies and the new recipe seems to go through him great.

Any thoughts? Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks already for reading.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

raw chicken what?

raw chicken frames or ground raw chicken without bones?

no organ meat listed 

no other meat -- chicken is iron poor -- you need to get some red muscle meat in there

flax is generally GMO -- 80% of America's crops as stated in an article I just finished reading 

broccoli -- I have problems with that for a canine --- affects thyroid -- and has isothiocyanate which gradually and accumulatively affects liver function (like cirrhosis)

all your vegetable sources are fibrous , and carbohydrate 

mineral levels low and we don't know if even the macro minerals are sufficient ? no essential fatty acids.


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## BrunoWagner (Apr 28, 2015)

Hey, Carmen. Thanks for posting the reply. I appreciate your input. 

The chicken I give him is usually chicken legs without the bones. I had read that weight supporting bones are not good for some reason.

What do you mean by this, "mineral levels low and we don't know if even the macro minerals are sufficient ? no essential fatty acids." Can you give me some practical advise on that?

I was feeding him organ meats, but then I read how many toxins can be transmitted through them; specially liver and kidney. Are there any supplements the nutrients that they get from the organ meat?


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## BrunoWagner (Apr 28, 2015)

Does anyone else have anything to add? Carmen's response was not detailed enough for a non-expert on raw food.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Carmen will respond with more details, I'm sure. In the mean time you may want to read more within the raw feeding section of the forum. I am not qualified to answer. I'll be waiting for her reply myself.

Lynn & Traveler


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Monica Segal just posted today about an unbalanced raw diet one of her clients was feeding that she found in a popular magazine 

You might want to get in touch with her. She can help you balance your current diet and she also offers balanced recipes in her books/booklets.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Monica-Segal/216331401727910?fref=ts

https://www.monicasegal.com/Raw_Food_Recipes_2nd_edition_e-Booklet.html


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## CroMacster (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm not an expert. But I've based my diet on the information found on the forum. 

80% muscle meat
10% bone
10% organ (only 5% from liver)



BrunoWagner said:


> Hey, Carmen. Thanks for posting the reply. I appreciate your input.
> The chicken I give him is usually chicken legs without the bones. I had read that weight supporting bones are not good for some reason.


This really only applies to large animals like cows. Chicken and poultry bones are all soft enough for your dog to munch away. For a raw diet to work well you need the bones. Crunching on the bones is also good for their teeth.



BrunoWagner said:


> I was feeding him organ meats, but then I read how many toxins can be transmitted through them; specially liver and kidney. Are there any supplements the nutrients that they get from the organ meat?


Just feed them organs. Liver and kidneys are just fine for dogs as long as you are buying from a good source



BrunoWagner said:


> no essential fatty acids." Can you give me some practical advise on that?


Add in some fish oil of some sort. I know some popular options are Grizzly salmon oil and SHemp oil. General consensus seems to be to add some Vit E along with this.

In regards to the Itching...

It could be a number of things. Adding in some Omega 3 fatty acids could help. If it's a yeast issue it would be wise to stop giving any yeast promoting foods like apples or carrots. Anything high in sugar content. Or it could be the eggs. Trying some elimination diets could help you determine the cause.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Basically everything carmspack said. Times 100.

You need much more variety. And you must get organs in there! I feed mostly red meats with just a bit of poultry, bone and a good portion and variety of organ meat. Liver, kidney, Heart, Tripe, Lung, Pancreas, Intestine. The whole she-bang. I think that malnutrition from missing out on the ammino acids, vitamins, minerals and other nutrients found in organ meat is going to be far more dangerous to your dog then build up of toxins. Which is a negligible risk as is. 

I am a fan of including fruits and veggies in a raw diet but 30% is a bit high for my taste I like to keep it around 15%. Most of the veggies my guys get are various grasses (wheat grass, barley grass, alfalfa), leafy greens (spinach, parsley), and sea vegetables (spirulina, chorella, kelp). The fruits that are a regular part of the diet are berries, and papaya. Apples, pears, and melons every so often. Cruciferous vegetables are on a limited basis. I'll do pumpkin, carrots and sweet potato like twice a week. I avoid nightshade species and legumes. 

In addition to the Meat, organs, bone, greens and fruit I feed. I also include healthy fats like coconut and salmon oil. And dairy. Raw goats milk, yogurt, cottage cheese etc. Also weird stuff like gelatin, fermented fish stock and insect powder. 

One thing I have found helpful has been to use online recipe analyzers. I plugged yours into a pretty decent one. It does not have an option for eggshells so the calcium is off. You will have to add that in manually. These probably aren't the most accurate in the world but it's a good baseline.

Here's your recipe:
Dog food 

I put it as 8 servings so look at the entire recipe and divide as needed.

For comparison here is a science based guide for dog nutritional needs. The committee that came up with it include representatives from some of the top institutions. Cornell, Texas A&M, Davis. Forget recipes found online or in magazines. This is the place to start if you want to create a homemade diet. 

There are 2 major things that stuck out to me about your meal plan right away. The first being iron. Like carmspack said chicken is low in iron and you aren't feeding any liver or leafy greens to make up for that.

The guide is based on a 33lb active dog needing 1000 calories per day. That dog would need 7.5mg of iron. 1000 calories worth of your diet only provides 5.1mg of iron. 

The lack of organ meat really concerns me in your meal plan. The choline appears to be awfully low, the guide's minimum is 425mg yours only provides 60mg.  This is why organ meat is important. A mere 3 oz of beef kidney has a whopping 436 mg of choline! That was the second one. 

I didn't go through everything but I went ahead and picked a few nutrients at random to check as well. The guide calls for 1.3mg of riboflavin. Your recipe would provide half that at .7 mg. The pup in the guide would need 1.5mg of copper. Your recipe has 0.4mg. Looks like you only have 1/2 the amount of zinc as well, the recipe analysis says 6.8mg the guide calls for 15mg. Now don't think that your recipe is woefully devoid of all nutrients You had abundances in some. Like Niacin. Your recipe provides 20mg and the guide calls for 4mg. 

Overall I wouldn't consider what you are feeding to be a balanced diet. If you want to continue down the path of home prepared meals you should probably get back to the drawing board. 

Since you're in Charlotte - check out Atrium Animal Hospital. Right off of Pineville-Matthews rd. Across from Carmel Commons. It's kinda behind/beside Charlotte Catholic. I can't think of the road name. It's a great raw-friendly vet practice. They actually prefer their clients to do a home prepared diet to commercial. If you feel overwhelmed it might be worth it for you to get the guidance of a local expert, Dr. Hombs helped me fine tune my own raw meal plan for a growing puppy. 

Good luck!


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## BrunoWagner (Apr 28, 2015)

First of all, thanks to everyone that replied. Nutritionally, what I'm feeding my dog is becoming more clear the more I read... understandably.

The main reason why I don't feed organ meat, is because (a) I had read about the chemicals in them, but (b) also because I can't reliably find it. The grocery stores near me have a lot of chicken gizzards and chicken livers, but beef liver is REAL expensive and the other organs you mention appear on the shelves now and then, but not reliably. 

Voodolamb, since you seem to know Charlotte pretty well, where can I get some organ meat near me? I live less than 5 minutes away from that vet you mention.

As for the veggie to meat ratio, if I feed my dog less veggies, his poop gets very dry and he whimpers when he poops. I really feel I have hit the Goldilocks spot for his vowel comfort. He has always had tummy issues until now. He seems to be running like a well-oiled machine.

That said, what veggies would you guys recommend I substitute the broccoli and carrots for? What leafy greens are best? What kind of veggies are safe to feed?

BTW, Voodolamb, I will read that guide you sent me the link for, I just want to know ASAP so I can make the changes.

Finally, the itching seems to have gone away by itself. I think it might have been caused by a bath I gave him with a all-natural dog shampoo I made with too little oils and aloe. I made a new batch with bumped up levels of these and he seems fine now. I tend to jump the gun sometimes. I love my buddy and since he can't tell me how he feels, I tend to read too much into his mere passing discomforts.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hi -- your intentions are good and I am sure you will make the changes that you need to give your dog the diet he needs .

the issue with weight supporting bones applies to large , heavy animals with dense bones -- cattle as an example

newbie raw feeders will give ground hamburg type meat or stewing meat , or chicken breast meat and then provide a knuckle or marrow bone as the bone portion of the diet . However, this is a recreational bone which I am not crazy about giving . Dense bone will chip , and this is not digestible . Or the dog's teeth may chip .

Poultry and rabbit and the soft parts of a pork rib are good choices for meaty bones. Raw . Turkey and chicken necks , an old layer hen cut into portions , 1/4's - is the basis of a good meal.

then you do add heart , beef , pork , chicken -- 
chicken gizzards -- grab them -- a source of hyaluronic acid , chondroitin and 
glucosamine

well to save myself some time , have a look at this 

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/why-organ-meat-is-important-for-the-raw-fed-dog/\

by the way Sh-Emp does have natural Vitamin E included thanks to the hemp oil - in there by design !

I will give more later ...


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> The main reason why I don't feed organ meat, is because (a) I had read about the chemicals in them, but (b) also because I can't reliably find it. The grocery stores near me have a lot of chicken gizzards and chicken livers, but beef liver is REAL expensive and the other organs you mention appear on the shelves now and then, but not reliably.





> Voodolamb, since you seem to know Charlotte pretty well, where can I get some organ meat near me? I live less than 5 minutes away from that vet you mention.


If you are really really worried about the chemicals, there is always the option of purchasing organic. Also you can opt for calf's liver vs cow. Young animals have less time to build up toxins in their tissue. There are also other aspects of the diet that can help with your concerns. Personally I am not sure how much I buy into the alternative type treatments so you will have to research and decide for yourself. Montmorillonite clay is often used to detoxify the body, I know I've seen it listed on a handful of commercial foods for dogs. Chorella is one I know for a fact has some clinical studies to back up the detoxing claims. 

As for local sources if I told you, I'd have to kill you. Just kidding  The trick is going to be to head to the uhh shall we say more ethnic areas of Charlotte? Some stores I frequent are:

Compare foods (off Arrowood) - They have a good butcher section with lots of variety including organ meats. Goat's meat is on sale this week $2.99 per lb 

Save-a-lot (Albemarle rd) - Awesome spot for some alternative chews. Last trip I nabbed raw chicken feet, raw cow hooves, raw pigs feet and even raw sow's ears. Plus they have calf liver really cheap in their freezer section. Really good prices on turkey necks and really cheap big bags of frozen chicken leg quarters - like 10lbs for around $5. They also carry 'chitlins' year round. They don't make a huge part of my guys diet as they aren't the biggest nutritional bang for your buck. I think they're actually classified as muscle meat instead of organ but alas that's a place you can buy them. I do occasional get them and stuff them with a raw grind to make sausages for funzies. 

Wal-mart (S. Tryon) - Go ahead and laugh. Beef heart and beef kidney can be found regularly and cheaply. They also always have tongue in stock. Plus the normal chicken hearts & gizzards, livers, necks and what not. 

That really big Asian super market that's name I can't think of (Sugar Creek & N Tryon) - Live fish. Lots of alternative cuts in meat at really good prices. Kidneys, brains, feet and more. I got a whole pig uterus for like $3. Pretty good price on rabbit too. 

4pawsholistic (selwyn) - great little pet store. They do carry a frozen green tripe grind. It's also were I get my raw goats milk and fermented fish stock.

Craigslist - I buy quail off craigslist regularly. You can get them really cheaply. Last week I bought 30 nearly grown organically raised corturnix for $25. That's like 2 weeks worth of meat, bone and organ in the perfect ratio  They are actually very easy to humanely slaughter and dress. Seriously - it takes 30 seconds. Sharp scissors, nip the head off over the sink and hold upside down to drain the blood, no plucking needed they have delicate skin that can be torn and pulled off with fingers. Head and skin off then given to the pup or into the freezer they go. (I do feed the head - it's usually gone in one bite). They are very quiet if you need to wait to process them. They only need about 1 sq foot of space per bird and char-meck classifies them as an exotic not livestock. I actually have a few living out back in an old wire dog crate. They were a bit smaller then I would like so I'm fattening them up a bit. 

I also make purchases online. mypetcarnivore and hare-today have both gotten here in good condition - even in our summer heat. 

Also just ask the manager/butcher at what ever store you usually go to. I'm sure most would be willing to order you something. Harris Teeter has been awesome about ordering stuff for me in the past. 



> As for the veggie to meat ratio, if I feed my dog less veggies, his poop gets very dry and he whimpers when he poops. I really feel I have hit the Goldilocks spot for his vowel comfort. He has always had tummy issues until now. He seems to be running like a well-oiled machine.


That's the most important thing! Finding something that works for your dog.  Actually though you are feeding less veggie then I first thought. I didn't take into consideration the yogurt eggs and flax. You're probably closer to 20%. My bad. I shouldn't be doing math so late at night LOL



> That said, what veggies would you guys recommend I substitute the broccoli and carrots for? What leafy greens are best? What kind of veggies are safe to feed?


Variety here is the key. What I do is the greens and fruit I want to feed daily I purchase the powdered forms in bulk. Wheat grass, barley grass, alfalfa, spriluna, chorella, kelp and spinach. I also get freeze dried fruit powders. Berries and Papaya. I mix the greens and fruit 2 to 1. Ends up costing less then $1 per day and I just add a scoop to yogurt or ground meat. 

The rest of the veggies I feed are basically what I am making for myself that day. If I have a hankering for kale chips I'll toss some of the stems and leaf scraps into the food processor to mix in with the dog's dinner. If I make myself a salad for lunch I save a handful of the spring mix. If I have carrots on hand as a snack for myself I'll share. When I make zucchini noodles the dogs get the cores or any parts with brown spots. 

Honestly it would probably be easier to list what's NOT good to feed. Cruciferous vegetables can effect thyroid function so I avoid feeding them daily. But If I have broccoli for dinner then they'll get a few stalks. Just not EVERY day. In addition to being pretty carby, Legumes are high in phytates and lectins, the former interfering with absorbtion of minerals and the later causing some pretty nasty digestive and inflamation issues. Not something I want to be feeding daily but I'm not going to freak if they have a few spoonfuls of peas here and there. The alkaloids in nightshade plants can cause issues in large amounts so again, not something that will get fed daily. But no freak out for the occasional cherry tomato snackage.



> BTW, Voodolamb, I will read that guide you sent me the link for, I just want to know ASAP so I can make the changes.
> 
> Finally, the itching seems to have gone away by itself. I think it might have been caused by a bath I gave him with a all-natural dog shampoo I made with too little oils and aloe. I made a new batch with bumped up levels of these and he seems fine now. I tend to jump the gun sometimes. I love my buddy and since he can't tell me how he feels, I tend to read too much into his mere passing discomforts.


Honestly that probably was the issue. I doubt his diet was the cause of such sudden itchiness. But his passing discomfort was probably a blessing in disguise with the way it is making you rethink your meal plan


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You can't pick and choose what you feed on a raw diet. You either do it correctly, with organs and edible bones, and other protein besides chicken, or you don't do it at all.

The coat is a clear sign that he is not getting adequate nutrition.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Did you ever think that it just might be pollen season? It could just be dander from seasonal allergies causing the dull coat.

It doesn't sound like the diet is balanced but I would be seasonal allergies over food as he's been fine for 8 months and suddenly has issues during pollen season.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

OP, why not start with a commercial raw, or raw + a base mix to balance, while you get the hang of sourcing and working on a complete diet? It will give you some breathing space to learn.

By the way, don't overlook slaughterhouses in rural communities. I've got a dog that can only eat beef ($$$$). He's allergic to almost everything else. My best resources are an hour's drive outside the city. Some of them sometimes sell at farmer's markets in they city (so they'll bring me an order on market day), but others require a drive out into the country. Sometimes I have to compete with fishermen for the beef hearts (they use them as bait), so when I want those, I call ahead to reserve them if it's a weekend. If you are _very lucky _a conversation with a proprietor may reveal they grind up the bits that mainstream consumers don't want and sell that mixed organ grind at a deep discount. The only way to know is to get to know them and ask.

Making friends with avid hunters during the Fall might also land you some low-cost deer or elk meat, once their own families' freezers are full.


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