# Question for people who have dogs with "issues"



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Many of us deal with dogs who have issues like reactivity, fear, aggression, shyness, etc... Some of you may be familiar with my struggles with my nearly two year old GSD Niko. He's been through the gauntlet of classes, day care, outings and now we are approaching the final session with the private trainer we hired to help us deal with his reactivity. Niko has made progress in his reactivity and he will listen to my direction when he is in a situation that he is not comfortable with. We have learned that he is better when I can keep his mind busy in a scary situation (for instance he is more comfortable to be on the move in public and engaged with me, rather than just sitting on a park bench watching the world go by). The problem arises when I give him the chance to decide how to react to something; he invariably makes the "wrong" choice and starts to bark/lunge.

So to sum up, I can certainly "manage" him in all kinds of situations, but can I ever really believe that someday he will be able to control himself without my input? *When did you guys come to accept "the dog that you have" versus "the dog that you wanted?"* Did you wait until a certain age? Until you stopped seeing progress? Until you had tried all methods (I have gotten advice such as using a prong or e-collar, which I have not wanted to use)? Is it better to never accept that the dog is the best he/she can be? Is it giving up to decide that your dog will just never be able to fill in the blank? And also, as the owner are you too biased to be able to make that determination yourself? Is it a question that needs to be answered by someone like a trainer you have worked with for a long time?:help:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I started to accept that Jax was never going to play with dogs again last year when I watched have ZERO interest in a puppy that wanted to play. This year I accepted that Jax would probably always need to be managed around other dogs and we are working on correcting her lunging, barking fits and on "Look".

I don't think you will stop seeing progress. I think you need to find a method that works for your dog. If the anxiety is so bad then maybe the method is that you severely limit the contact with whatever he is scared of.

btw Leah...if you are close enough to Binghamton, I know an excellent trainer that might be able to help you.

eta: I'm also learning what sets her off. Which seems to be when we first get somewhere so I need to learn to stay on the outskirts until she settles and having dogs come right up in her face. She'll take it the first time but it quickly gets old with her.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

How about accepting the dog you have right now? Think like a dog and live in the moment. 

You can accept Niko as he is right now and still work on things with him. Did you stop growing and changing at 18, 21 or 30? Or are you constantly learning and growing. It's no different for dogs (especially ones as intelligent as a GSD). He's still young and likely not fully mature yet. You _can_ teach an old dog new tricks.

He may never be a social dog or a competition dog so you adjust your goals to what he can accomplish today and push him a little further as you go along. Steady progress and growth.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I got Shenzi free from Kijiji at 3 years old, knowing the dog had issues that was even cemented when i met the dog and she bit me. (no puncture, but there was a bruise).
I knew what I had in front of me.
A little over a year later, she is doing great. elevator, hallways, checking the mail, she is great. But she definantly has a bubble and I keep people out of it. I've started to look at it as I will not stress her out because OTHER people want her to be something shes not. She's everything I wanted (now). she cuddles, shes trained, she makes me laugh. She doesnt need to make other people laugh to make me happy.

I think if your dog is manageable and safe under your control, further training is up to you. Are you willing to continueally stress out your dog, put an ecollar on it potentially making it worse? 

I have also learned to pick my battles. Shenzi does not need to like joe moron cooing over her head, but she will accept my friends into my apartment without assault. She will on her own accord spend individual time with my friends, petting, fetch, LIGHT wrestling, she initates contact with my friends. I don't force that on her, she initates contact only (its a strict rule in the house that visitors are not to approach her) but it is nice to see her having fun with someone who is not me or my bf. 

Pick your battles. Its tough having a dog with issues. I gave you a lot of nonsense, but I needed to vent. I accepted she is who she is and I couldn't 'fix' her when I talked to someone about their battle and how they had reached a plataeu. This person was going to lengths I wouldn't,and stressing the dog out as a result. The dog apparently went of feed and everything. I'm not willing to do it. So I quit trying to fit her in a mold she won't fit in.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm about a three hour drive from Binghamton. And we are actually really happy with the trainer we are using, but are not sure if we are ready to spend another $500 for six more sessions with her. How can I know if Niko has made it as far as he is capable of? And if another six sessions go by, and by some miracle he decides he can tolerate her two dogs (can't see that happening really, based on the last session), can I really expect him to generalize and realize that other dogs can be okay too?


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I believe you accept and love the dog for what s/he is at this present point in time, and remind yourself of how far the dog has come over time. I do not believe you ever give up, but you have to set realistic expectations for yourself.

Dante is only 11 months old, but very shy and skittish - very weak nerves, but not reactive in the barking/growling/lunging sense of the word. Very friendly, and social with people he knows well. I accepted him from the day I got him because I knew what I was getting into, but I have always had hopes and dreams for him. He has exceeded them in some (many) aspects, and not yet met them in others. If he stopped progressing today and never made any progress on the weaker areas, I would still be thrilled with how far he's come and what kind of dog he's turned out to be. I think if you stop believing in success, the dog will stop progressing because you will stop progressing, whether you mean to or not.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I personally disagree with a lot of the training theories here presented for reactive dogs, and if I'd paid a trainer $500 for 6 sessions and by the end my dog still couldn't be in total control around the trainers two dogs, I would most definitely NOT pay another $500 for that trainer.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i read somewhere when your dog isn't
doing what you want you have to ask yourself
what am i doing wrong.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> i read somewhere when your dog isn't
> doing what you want you have to ask yourself
> what am i doing wrong.


this is true in a lot of instances but you can't change genetics.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

$500???!!!! My trainer isn't cheap but isn't near that!


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

First, let me just say that I feel your pain. I too have worked with my dog on similar issues. We went through just about every class available and went to a private trainer. I can't say at this point that Willow is that perfect dog that most people dream of having but she is my dog so that makes her perfect to me. Plus I haven't given up yet!!!
From my perspective Willow has made tremendous progress since I first started working specifically on the reactiviy and with a private trainer. When we started Willow was not able to walk down the street, spot another dog and not react. It didn't matter how close or how far that other dog was. Now, she can definitely walk by another calm dog in the area and stay calm and watch me. If the other dog is barking at her then we turn around and go another way. It is too soon for that at this time and I am aware and fine with that. 
I keep Willow to routes that I know where I am at, where dogs live, etc. I try to eliminate the unknown if possible. My goal is to be able to take her out on trails and to parks but at this time that is a definite no unless I am meeting someone for a specific training session. My next training option is a class through our local Humane Society. It is set up for dogs with Willows exact issues. It takes place out in parks, trails and even downtown and allows all the dogs to walk along together in a variety of different places with different sights and sounds. I have high hopes for this but I am trying not to think it will solve all of Willow's problems. 

Hang in there with Niko. 

P.S. If this is the best that Willow can be then it is not the end of the world for either of us. We can limit our walks to about 3 subdivisions that I am very familiar with and life will go on. I have absolutely NO problems with Willow around the house or in the yard. She is very well-behaved and very friendly to people.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If your dog has made progress in the first six classes -- all dogs are individuals and rerun's dog might be able to do cartwheels with other dogs after six weeks, and your dog might not, and that may be more the dog than the trainer. Hard to say. But if your dog has made progress in the first six classes, and you are wondering whether it makes sense to pay another $500, then I think you should ask your trainer to outline approximately what she intends to do with your dog for those classes. I mean, if it is more of the same, and that might be what the dog needs, but maybe you can do those things on your own, in public. But if she has a plan that involves two people and maybe her dogs, well then you should be able to decide if it makes sense to continue. 

$83.33 per class for individual classes is probably pretty reasonable in NY.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> I'm about a three hour drive from Binghamton. And we are actually really happy with the trainer we are using, but are not sure if we are ready to spend another $500 for six more sessions with her. How can I know if Niko has made it as far as he is capable of? And if another six sessions go by, and by some miracle he decides he can tolerate her two dogs (can't see that happening really, based on the last session), can I really expect him to generalize and realize that other dogs can be okay too?


That's really expensive. The going rate for private training here is between $60-$80 a session. Still less than what you are paying, but if it is working then I suppose it is worth it. I would say if you haven't seen enough improvement in these 6 sessions try 6 more and see where you end up. Just know the sessions are to help teach you things and push situations further, practicing at home on a daily basis is the key. If after the next 6 sessions and daily practice you are not much further, then I would seek out a different trainer or behaviorist and give them a shot. 

Just because one session did not go well doesn't mean the next one will be the same. Sometimes they have off days just like us. Train positive and happy and project confidence. The more you doubt it won't work then it won't. Try to not get frustrated while in class, I know it can be hard but stop and take a deep breathe and try and relax. All your feelings travel down the leash and into your dog. So if your tense your dog will be tense. 

Best of Luck!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sue - My trainer is in NY and she's at $50-$60/hr.

Leah - If you are seeing results, then stick with it! I know you aren't using any compulsion methods with Niko so it may take a bit longer. And like Jamie said, he's still really young. Your other choice is to quit training and isolate him?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

$50-60/hr, $60-80/session, $83.33/class, it depends on a lot of things. Is the trainer driving to your home, or does she have a facility with equipment, etc? Is the trainer accredited with the APDT? How long is a session or class? How comfortable is she with you and your dogs? How far do you have to travel to get to her? 

Frankly, I would probably pay $100/hour if my trainer had a stair step of children and was willing to sign a release.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Rerun said:


> I personally disagree with a lot of the training theories here presented for reactive dogs, and if I'd paid a trainer $500 for 6 sessions and by the end my dog still couldn't be in total control around the trainers two dogs, I would most definitely NOT pay another $500 for that trainer.


 
Ain't that the truth! Wish I heard that about a year ago!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

selzer said:


> $50-60/hr, $60-80/session, $83.33/class, it depends on a lot of things. Is the trainer driving to your home, or does she have a facility with equipment, etc? Is the trainer accredited with the APDT? How long is a session or class? How comfortable is she with you and your dogs? How far do you have to travel to get to her?
> 
> Frankly, I would probably pay $100/hour if my trainer had a stair step of children and was willing to sign a release.


Hour long class. APDT. Masters in animal science. Helped start up the SchH club in our area. Has several titles on her dogs. Has agility equipment outside and in. Training room. Larger training area. I travel 45-60 minutes to her facility. Very comfortable with my dog and Jax with her.

Rebecca's Canine Academy

And most importantly....everything she has taught me has improved Jax's obedience and is starting to help her dog reactivity.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Rerun said:


> I personally disagree with a lot of the training theories here presented for reactive dogs, and if I'd paid a trainer $500 for 6 sessions and by the end my dog still couldn't be in total control around the trainers two dogs, I would most definitely NOT pay another $500 for that trainer.


I should have given more detail as to why I am very happy with my trainer. She has helped us immensely with advice on helping Niko to not react to about a dozen different situations. We have spent the last five months (our training sessions have been about one per month, and that time in between has been dedicated to socialization outings). She owns two guide dog washouts (due to health reasons) who are very stable and she has been using them in the past four sessions and we've been building up Niko's tolerance of them, which has helped him when he sees other dogs now out in public. We can pass by houses with barking dogs behind fences or tied out. I would not feel good about sharing a sidewalk with strange dog (although we haven't tested it). 

The last session we had at her property which has a large, fenced in area with small trees and shrubs in it. She let her dog Huck off leash in the area, then had me release Niko into the area. Niko raced in, got in the dog's face and barked like a maniac.  This dog was completely non-reactive and made evasive movements. I called Niko back to me, and he came. Repeatedly. I even put Niko in a sit stay, went over to Huck and fed him treats and petted him, then went back to Niko and gave him treats. Niko never went "red-zone", he always listened to me and came back to me the first time I called him. The same with my husband who was also there. 

I don't know of any other trainer who would have enough faith to let her dog be approached by a potential threat like that. As it was, whenever I held my tongue and let Niko decide how he wanted to interact with Huck (and not call him back to me) Niko was a jerk. Once he grabbed Huck's tail and once he nipped him on the muzzle (no blood). So Niko makes bad choices and cannot seem to read other dogs submissive body language. He is, however, fully under control around other dogs UNLESS they are coming at him with intent to harm or intimidate. The only times I haven't been able to reach him is when we were on leashed walks and an off-leash dog rushed us (this has happened multiple times).




selzer said:


> $50-60/hr, $60-80/session, $83.33/class, it depends on a lot of things. Is the trainer driving to your home, or does she have a facility with equipment, etc? Is the trainer accredited with the APDT? How long is a session or class? How comfortable is she with you and your dogs? How far do you have to travel to get to her?
> 
> Frankly, I would probably pay $100/hour if my trainer had a stair step of children and was willing to sign a release.


The first session the trainer drove to our home (30 min drive). The next two times we met in public places in a town mid-way between us. Another time we met closer to her home in a borrowed fenced in yard. This last time we met at her property (she doesn't have a residence there, it's just land). So we are both often driving to meet each other. Options in this part of Allegany/Cattaraugus County are limited. I chose to go with a trainer who does not use compulsion. I don't know if she has any fancy certificates, but we read the same dog training books.  She has been the best trainer we have worked with so far.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Personally, Leah, it sounds like this trainer has done a lot for Niko and for you. If your goal is to be able to take Niko out and have him be non reactive. I honestly think this trainer will help you if ypu dont think you can do it alone. And continued controlled exposure to a dog who doesn't react to his antics could really help him learn that the reactions don't get him what he wants. JMO based on what I know of your issues and the training you've done so far.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> i read somewhere when your dog isn't
> doing what you want you have to ask yourself
> what am i doing wrong.


I understand that statement but I do not agree with it under all circumstances. I think that statement works for people who do not know what they are doing with raising their dog, and who have done no research and done no training. It is a dumbed down sound bite for the general public. 



cshepherd9 said:


> First, let me just say that I feel your pain.
> 
> Hang in there with Niko.
> 
> P.S. If this is the best that Willow can be then it is not the end of the world for either of us. We can limit our walks to about 3 subdivisions that I am very familiar with and life will go on. I have absolutely NO problems with Willow around the house or in the yard. She is very well-behaved and very friendly to people.


Thank you.  It sounds like we are in very similar situations. I too will be perfectly happy with Niko (and certainly love him no less) if we end up managing him the same way you do Willow. If your next set of training classes do not impact her reactivity with other dogs, will you stop them or try another tactic? How will you determine when she is the best she can be in that area?



selzer said:


> But if your dog has made progress in the first six classes, and you are wondering whether it makes sense to pay another $500, then I think you should ask your trainer to outline approximately what she intends to do with your dog for those classes. I mean, if it is more of the same, and that might be what the dog needs, but maybe you can do those things on your own, in public. But if she has a plan that involves two people and maybe her dogs, well then you should be able to decide if it makes sense to continue.


Good point, after the next session (of which Rosa will be a part so that the trainer may observe the interaction between Rosa and Niko), if we decide to continue on, these will be important questions to ask. Thanks Sue!


I really appreciate everyone who has shared their experiences. I am wishing Niko could just tell me: "Mom, I know you mean well but I really don't want any more friends." Or "Mom, I think I want to make a friend, but I'm scared and need a bit more time to feel comfortable." 

We did have some positives in the training session. Niko walked on leash (loose) in front of the trainer's second dog (who is less submissive, thus why Niko was leashed) and also following the other dog. He made no move to get at the other dog and listened to me when I asked for his attention. I was encouraged by this. The trainer told me not to be discouraged by the session. She is hopeful that the next session will show some progress. I suppose if he shows no progress, then I may have my answer right there.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

To answer your original question - I think a lot of it depends on the dog and the problem. For reactivity, I'd perhaps look at it as a life long progression, but not something that I have to accept as a "given." Grace was very reactive towards people and other dogs when we first got her but can now (and for years has been able to) attend large off leash functions with hundreds of people and other dogs perfectly safely. She will always be a somewhat "edgy" dog in that she's a little sharp, but she was fully capable of replacing her learned fear aggressive reactions with learned low-key reactions. 

It seems like so much of this type of training is replacing old habits with new ones and it really does take a long time to replace a habit, especially when the dog gets periodic reinforcement for the old one (in spite of all our best efforts). Sometimes it helps me to consider my own bad habits (procrastination, for example) and look at the time it has taken me to reduce (although not eliminate - clearly) that one. Like canine reactivity, it's a reaction to anxiety and when I decide to put something off, my anxiety lessons, which is highly reinforcing. For a reactive dog, when the other dog backs off or we as handlers remove the dog from the situation, anxiety lessons and that's very reinforcing for the dog. Sometimes it's just unavoidable though. 

I'm not a big fan of flooding as a methodology but I do think having a ton of positive experiences helps reduce reactivity. At some point it was simply impossible for Grace to maintain her former level of vigilance and she started to have experiences where she was less vigilant and nothing bad happened. I think of it like gradually releasing the steam as the temperature cools. I think dogs like this can make tremendous progress, but it may take a while and progress can be slow.


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> Thank you.  It sounds like we are in very similar situations. I too will be perfectly happy with Niko (and certainly love him no less) if we end up managing him the same way you do Willow. If your next set of training classes do not impact her reactivity with other dogs, will you stop them or try another tactic? How will you determine when she is the best she can be in that area?


That is a good question and I don't really have an answer as yet. I am kind of playing it by ear and working on things as they arise. I know I am definitely going to try the reality class and I have already contacted a new trainer about the possibility of getting Willow involved in Tracking. I have read and gotten some advice from others here on the forum that getting involved in a sport can boost a dogs confidence. I will say that before I even read this, I kind of had the inkling of the idea rolling around in my head when about 2 months ago Willow found a trail and followed it right by a dog sitting out in its yard and she never lost the trail and never acknowledge the dog across the street. At that time there was no way she would have passed that dog without reacting but she never even looked up (and she knows this house and this dog and is always on alert when we walk by even if that dog is not outside). So it is a possiblity that I am looking into. Also, the sport classes wouldn't really be to help with the reactivity, I just think it would be fun for both of us... if she can handle it.
After that, I am out of ideas. I guess I can work my way through every trainer in Indy or I will file bankruptcy whichever comes first :wild:


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I don't think that dog's that are "reactive" to other dogs and/or situations are ever "cured" of their problem(s).....especially with many of the methods being used today......"controlled" might be a better word....not cured.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I guess it depends on what's meant by reactive. It can be a broad term. But I disagree that a dog who is reactive can't be cured. I have seen dogs that eval'd as highly reactive that ultimately became quite unreactive. But I think it depends on a number of factors - the main one being the degree to which genetics play a role. I'd agree that a dog with genetically weak nerves is always going to have weak nerves and you're looking more at management than true change. But a lot of the dogs I deal with are simply very poorly socialized or have had previous negative experiences. I have seen these dogs transform into unrecognizable versions of their former selves given the opportunity. I have also seen owners blame all their dog's problems on genes because it's easier than putting in the time and effort to change the dog's behavior - and their own.


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

my rescue was super reactive when we got her at 1.5 years old-she would pounce and nip young dogs and start fights with bigger dogs. i accepted this and worked with her-now at 7 years she's at the point where she will ignore other dogs and i trust her 99.9%


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I mean "reactive" dogs....not social misguided dogs, or dogs with minor behaviour issues, that owners seek help with.....calling them reactive.
I'm speaking of truly "reactive" dogs.....*most of today's "politically correct training methods" do not "cure" reactive dogs.

*True reactive dogs are not cured (with most methods)... their responses can be controlled or "masked" by handler interaction......but genetics will always "pop it's head up in the end".*

Edit to add: I'm not here to argue or debate the issue.....just voiceing a learned opinion.
People should train or seek guidance from whom ever they need & use what ever methods work for you...


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

How do you define a "reactive" dog though? I would think you'd be looking at the behavior. How do they react? Unfortunately since genetically reactive dogs and poorly socialized dogs can behave exactly the same way (actually, the latter can be a lot worse), how does one distinguish the two? Especially when background is not known? 

If the definition of a "reactive" dog is one that is genetically weak nerved and cannot be changed, the you're defining the dog with the answer to the question - that is, the definition of a reactive dog is one that cannot be changed and therefore a reactive dog cannot be changed. Which is circular. 

Not trying to nitpick but it's an important distinction. If we look at the term "reactive" as indicative of a certain type of behavior, then that's going to include both dogs who CAN be cured and dogs who can't.

ETA: My concern is when we generalize based on the behavior, without knowing the cause (and often we can't know the cause) then we encourage people to give up on changing dogs who really can be changed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> I don't think that dog's that are "reactive" to other dogs and/or situations are ever "cured" of their problem(s).....especially with many of the methods being used today......"controlled" might be a better word....not cured.


I agree! Jax will never be "cured" but if I can get her to the point that she will ignore other dogs instead of being proactively boneheady then I will be one happy camper.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I think "learned" reactive behaviours or "environmental" behaviours can be cured.
BUT...I believe that "true genetic" reactive issues cannot....
I think at best...owners can learn to control them, train them and even partially "disguise" them....but I don't believe one can honestly "cure" them.

Jax.....it can be done, I've owned a mature "dominant persona" female....she "learned" that "ignoring "the impulse to fight or behave dog aggressive, was in her best interest.....she was not "cured"...but she was definitely controlled.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Personally, Leah, it sounds like this trainer has done a lot for Niko and for you. If your goal is to be able to take Niko out and have him be non reactive. I honestly think this trainer will help you if ypu dont think you can do it alone. And continued controlled exposure to a dog who doesn't react to his antics could really help him learn that the reactions don't get him what he wants. JMO based on what I know of your issues and the training you've done so far.


She really has helped us out a ton, and I have felt the strengthening of my bond with Niko as a result. She had some good tips for us on that growling issue btw him and Rosa too. She has been worth every penny. I guess we will have to trust her judgement on whether another set of sessions will help.

I have been pondering the basis of Niko's reactivity for months now. I am not one to cut myself slack or go the easy way out, so I am inclined to blame myself for Niko's issues, especially since his breeder is adamant that her line is solid and his littermate enjoys all manner of people and dogs and so on. Also, Niko is the first dog I have ever raised from a puppy, and only the second dog I have ever owned or lived with. So I have made mistakes, obviously. However, I know some very excellent dog owners from this forum who have done everything right with their dogs and had reactivity problems. We can assume that these dogs have a genetic component to their failings. 

I'm not prepared at this point to categorically state one way or the other the cause for Niko's reactivity, thus my dilemma on determining when I should accept his faults as unalterable and switch into management mode rather than rehabilitation mode.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm not on this board much anymore, so forgive me if a lot of this has already been addressed - but what is Niko like otherwise? Is he a frighty dog in general or are his issues specific to other dogs?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How did you do it Robin? As far as correcting in a compulsive manner, prong collar ramps her up. We're working with an e-collar for undesirable behaviors but she reacts to strongly to it to use it for actual training. We're playing the Look game. I think she's making progress. She let me take charge and didn't react to an off leash dog yesterday who ran at her (not aggressively)


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Behaviour modification to me is.....*Action-Reaction*....if (this) action is displayed....then (this) reaction is enforced....no gray area....and always enforced.

What is the Look game?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's teaching her to look at objects and then look away. LAT (Look at that). You point to something and when they look, reward. But hold the reward behind them a bit so they have to turn their head away for the reward.

What did you do for a reaction? A correction? Using what?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

pupresq said:


> I'm not on this board much anymore, so forgive me if a lot of this has already been addressed - but what is Niko like otherwise? Is he a frighty dog in general or are his issues specific to other dogs?


Niko has always been a loud talker.  Since he was a puppy, he has barked at everything: geese flying overhead, every time he exited the door of the house or truck (at nothing really, just announcing his presence). This was the beginning of our seeing him as reactive. He went to puppy social hour, which ended up being too small of a class to do any good since the other puppy was too small to play with him although Niko wanted to play. After that it seemed like the things that would make him bark increased all the time until it was high pitched voices, me leaving something in the yard that wasn't there before, the neighbor's garbage cans... And there was no more interest in playing with any other dog except for Rosa.

We have worked through much of this, the dog thing is a sticking point, as well as meeting strange people. Niko seems to have an established circle of human and canine friends and does not wish to enlarge it. Even after having gotten to know his trainer and taking many treats from her, he has absolutely no interest in being petted by her (which she doesn't press). I have a hard time with Niko when we come upon people out on our morning run which normally we never see anyone (we live in the woods, very sparsely populated area which has presented socialization challenges that we did not anticipate). When it's hunting season and we see people in the woods off the road, Niko barks his head off at them, and wants to pull towards them. Of course, in town when we see people he is not like this. We can easily share a sidewalk with strangers as long as I keep his focus on me. But meeting new people is very hard, the person has to bear with being barked at by a large, scary dog until Niko gets over it. Which takes some time. And also he will bark at people that he already knows when they come over to the house, at least until he realizes who they are, then he's happy to see them.

I do think his reactivity is fear based. His trainer likened his dog-dog interaction as being like the belligerent frat boy that doesn't know his manners, which is an evolution of how he had been previously behaving in his puppy classes (extreme avoidance of other puppies). With the increased socialization, I have seen his confidence level in non-dog situations increase, as well as increased confidence in me to help him make the decision not to react to something (like a group of noisy teenagers or a barking dog in a yard). But I fear his dog phobia may be a hurdle we cannot overcome. I just don't want to give up on him before knowing for sure, and I don't know how to figure that part out.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Jax....send me an email...


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Okay, that's very helpful. So basically he's a dog with a fairly low excitement threshold and (consequently) and a low tolerance for novelty. 

What I find with dogs like this is that they have all this anxious energy which they discharge into the (neurotic) behavior. That discharge feels good to them (like biting your nails or whatever when you're anxious) and it becomes self reinforcing. It can escalate in the same way that other maladaptive coping strategies do so that the behavior that once helped them cope is now creating more problems. It starts driving itself, especially when the behaviors are antagonistic to other dogs, often generating the exact reaction the source dog fears - and of course has no conception that it's creating that situation.

So how to deal? I come back to that idea of burning off the energy/letting off the steam. You need to combine strategies that drain off that anxious energy with experiences that recondition their expectations. Sounds like your trainer is doing a good job with the latter. 

Have you done any trials with exercising him a LOT first? Exercise is probably the easiest way to burn off some of that anxiety. Does he seem to cope better when he's tired? 

In reference to some of the other posts - I think there's a difference in strategies that seek to manage the problem behavior through aversive conditioning and those that seek to eliminate the problem by helping the dog relax so that the problem behaviors are irrelevant. This isn't anything to do with being "PC" or not. I have used both techniques and I think both can work, in a sense, but one gives you a dog that you manage behaviorally and one gives you a dog who can relax himself (ideally, anyway). Sort of the difference between learning not to bite your nails by snapping a rubber band on your wrist every time you start to do it and learning not to bite your nails by learning to recognize the antecedent mental state and substitute a more adaptive coping technique. Obviously dogs can't be taught to recognize antecedent states in the same way people can, but handlers can work with their dogs to short circuit that process to get a different outcome. It's a lot tougher but I do think it's doable for many dogs.


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> It's teaching her to look at objects and then look away. LAT (Look at that). You point to something and when they look, reward. But hold the reward behind them a bit so they have to turn their head away for the reward.


 This is what I have been doing with Willow and seeing good results so far. I started with a prong and corrections but it didn't work and to be honest Willow pulled away from me for awhile. It is very depressing to realize that your own dog doesn't like you. 
Since I have switched to the positive and the Look at That game. Not only has her reaction improved but also her bond with me. The first thing the new trainer did when we met was watch Willow and I together for about 20 minutes doing various things and just evaluated Willow and she told me things about Willow that I wasn't seeing, like the fact that she is a sensitive dog and that she was anxious. Once she pointed out to me what to look for it was very obvious but I didn't know what I was looking for. So, while Willow may have some genetic issues alot of her issues may actually be my doing but since I had never had a dog like her before I didn't know what to look for or how to deal with it. For me this whole process has been about my own education. My trainer gave me a list of books to read as I told her I was very interested in learning and I have been making my way through a slew of information.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

pupresq said:


> Have you done any trials with exercising him a LOT first? Exercise is probably the easiest way to burn off some of that anxiety. Does he seem to cope better when he's tired?
> .


Thank you for your insight! Niko gets lots of exercise. The training session I described in my previous post was last night. Yesterday Niko and I ran 6 miles in the morning at an 8 min/mile pace. Then he went with me to town so I could get the mail and we walked around town for about 45 minutes hoping to see some of his triggers and work with him on them. Then we came home and he played outside with Rosa and my husband for an hour. From 1 pm to 4 pm he napped. His training session was at 5 pm. So he was probably re-charged from the morning, but he gets particularly snarky when overtired, so it is a delicate balance to get him to the right level of exhaustion.  As far as I can tell, some days are better than others for him dealing with anxiety. I cannot definitively put down a reason as to why that is. We have a pretty well-established routine for his social outings (they always follow our runs), and some days will be better than others. I don't know why that is.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Hmm... Well, you're doing a lot of things right already, which is great but makes it harder to find where you can improve. You say you follow a routine - I'm a fan of routines with dogs, but is there any possibility that the routine is cuing him and ramping up his anxiety that way?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I will Robin! Have a job to get out tomorrow and much to do tonight! Thanks!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

robinhuerta said:


> What is the Look game?


The Look At That! game is from Leslie McDevitt's book Control Unleashed, often abbreviated as CU. Here's a previous post I wrote about the LAT game: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-aggressive-lunging-children.html#post2089178

Her concept of working with dogs who are fearful or stressed is along the lines of what pupresq is talking about here:



pupresq said:


> In reference to some of the other posts - I think there's a difference in strategies that seek to manage the problem behavior through aversive conditioning and those that seek to eliminate the problem by helping the dog relax so that the problem behaviors are irrelevant. This isn't anything to do with being "PC" or not. I have used both techniques and I think both can work, in a sense, but one gives you a dog that you manage behaviorally and one gives you a dog who can relax himself (ideally, anyway). Sort of the difference between learning not to bite your nails by snapping a rubber band on your wrist every time you start to do it and learning not to bite your nails by *learning to recognize the antecedent mental state and substitute a more adaptive coping technique.* Obviously dogs can't be taught to recognize antecedent states in the same way people can, but handlers can work with their dogs to short circuit that process to get a different outcome. It's a lot tougher but I do think it's doable for many dogs.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> Thank you for your insight! Niko gets lots of exercise. The training session I described in my previous post was last night. Yesterday Niko and I ran 6 miles in the morning at an 8 min/mile pace. Then he went with me to town so I could get the mail and we walked around town for about 45 minutes hoping to see some of his triggers and work with him on them. Then we came home and he played outside with Rosa and my husband for an hour. From 1 pm to 4 pm he napped. His training session was at 5 pm. So he was probably re-charged from the morning, but he gets particularly snarky when overtired, so it is a delicate balance to get him to the right level of exhaustion.  As far as I can tell, some days are better than others for him dealing with anxiety. I cannot definitively put down a reason as to why that is. We have a pretty well-established routine for his social outings (they always follow our runs), and some days will be better than others. I don't know why that is.


You have a very energetic dog. Mine is about the same age and she would probably sit down after 2 miles at that pace. Some shepherds are very high energy like that and that is just how they are built. He seems to be a good match for you in that respect. You have made a lot of progress and you should keep that in mind: he does progress .... even though he is still a work in progress. Your own intensity may be rubbing off on him and you may be feeding each other's 'drive'. Work on mellowing out together and being calm in situations that get him excited. Make a 'small deal' out of everything and he will pick up on it. My dog started out as slightly excitable and fearful. We are presently sitting next to the breezeway screen door watching a thunder and lightning storm, she is actually asleep. Some people talk to their dogs a lot (as in too much), sometimes just plain shutting up is a good alternative. (no offense) the boredom is very calming.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

pupresq said:


> Hmm... Well, you're doing a lot of things right already, which is great but makes it harder to find where you can improve. You say you follow a routine - I'm a fan of routines with dogs, but is there any possibility that the routine is cuing him and ramping up his anxiety that way?


It's certainly possible. He seems to like our outings to town, he sniffs and mouths his harness (only wears it in the car) and seems to know when I intend to take him somewhere (something about cutting up hot dogs I suspect). So he knows when we are going to do something special, and it could trigger some anxiety in spite of it seeming like he is eager to go... 

That is one area I do need to work on. I am such a creature of habit, I really like to do the same things every day in the same order. :crazy: It's hard for me to be spontaneous. So normally Niko gets his run in the am, then we come home and I walk Rosa separately. Then I do some stuff around the house (clean the litter box, prepare my husband's lunch, cut up the hot dogs for Niko, fill the treat bag and get the extra poop bags because he always manages to poop when we go somewhere) and finally I get Niko into the entry way so I can put his harness on. Then we got to the truck and drive to town.

Any suggestions on how to mix it up?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

At what point in the outing does he have problems? I actually think routines are great for dogs and can be helpful in these situations, you just have to be careful what you're cuing them to. The other thing is that what you're dealing with is essentially arousal and arousal thresholds which is neither inherently positive or negative. So his excitement can be happy or it can be anxious/neurotic, but they're all different parts of the same general trait. So he could be getting happy and excited about an outing and raising his arousal level, which then quickly morphs into a less desirable anxiety discharge. Are there aspects of the outings that go well?


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## Alyalanna (May 28, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> That is one area I do need to work on. I am such a creature of habit, I really like to do the same things every day in the same order. :crazy: It's hard for me to be spontaneous. So normally Niko gets his run in the am, then we come home and I walk Rosa separately. Then I do some stuff around the house (clean the litter box, prepare my husband's lunch, cut up the hot dogs for Niko, fill the treat bag and get the extra poop bags because he always manages to poop when we go somewhere) and finally I get Niko into the entry way so I can put his harness on. Then we got to the truck and drive to town.
> 
> Any suggestions on how to mix it up?


I have a different problem with my lab but it might give you an idea of how to mix up your schedule. Many Saturdays we will wake and, after my morning stuff, we will head to the dog park. The problem is that as soon as Bru sees me pick up that leash (she doesn't normally have the leash put on around my complex because she is glued to my hip so she equals leash with fun) and walk down the stairs she doesn't want to go to the bathroom but wants to immediately head to the car. Since the dog park is a bit of a drive away she is desperate to go when we get there. So I have to work on tricking her but I try to do it various ways. Sometimes I walk down with her and then come back upstairs for the leash. Sometimes I walk down with her and put the leash in the car then let her go to the bathroom. Sometimes we walk around the block so she thinks that is the outing. Anything that I can do that throws her off the track of what we are really doing.

You might try that with walking Rosa first (if Niko won't go insane waiting). Or a small thing could be cutting up a whole package of hotdogs at once and having 1 'serving' size bags in the fridge or freezer so you can just grab and go. You could also try putting on the harness after Niko is in the car or when you arrive at your location. 

 Hope that helped give you a few ideas. 

Now back to my history paper.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just a side note on the hotdog thing...I had a vet check for Jax the day after training using hot dogs as a treat. Ran a chem 17 just for baseline because she's young and healthy and her pancreas level was 3000 over the highest normal level!

Use lower fat treats! Chicken would be good.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Leah - have you tried adding DHA fish oil to his diet? There is a link somewhere on the other board about a study with with fish oil and aggressiveness.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I got over the fact that my dog wasn't the classic German Shepherd when he was about a year old, and I knew that even though issue after issue had surfaced from within him, that our love for him was just as strong as could be, issues and all-he is my boy. Now I know that he is an opportunity for me to learn so much more about dogs than if he'd been normal. He is 2 1/2 years old now, and I don't think that he is the best that he can be. I know that with our help he will overcome any remaining issues, and just as he has improved so much so far-he will continue to improve. I am one who will never accept that he is as good as he is going to get.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

pupresq said:


> At what point in the outing does he have problems? Are there aspects of the outings that go well?


We've come a loooong way with all the work we've done so at this point it has to be something pretty big to set Niko off. A week ago was the last big problem. We took a different street than normal and walked by a house that had a TON of chickens in the yard. Niko has a high prey drive, so he barked at them, I think out of frustration because he was leashed and couldn't go across the street to see them. But then he cooled down and refocused and I was happy when an elderly couple called out to us from their front porch to say hello. This would have made him bark in the past but he was fine with it. Then at the very next house an off-leash dog came running out at us barking and snarling. So Niko responded in kind and I did not manage the situation very well. I wasn't able to get in front of Niko, all I managed to do was hold him back by his harness. Fortunately the other dog wasn't as serious as Niko, so it ended up running away (and yes, I can see how Niko has been reinforced in his behavior, but I can't really blame him too much for his reaction). I think I was more shaken than Niko because as I composed myself he gave me a kiss.:wub:

Some successes: Some outings he will not bark at a single thing. We have walked by playgrounds with screaming kids. Large dump trucks, semis, school buses are okay. People working at a garage, we walked right by them and he was fine (this was after the dog incident!). He took a treat from a lady who works at the library, although he did bark at her first but stopped after about a minute and took the treat and then didn't bark again after that.



Alyalanna said:


> You might try that with walking Rosa first (if Niko won't go insane waiting). Or a small thing could be cutting up a whole package of hotdogs at once and having 1 'serving' size bags in the fridge or freezer so you can just grab and go. You could also try putting on the harness after Niko is in the car or when you arrive at your location.


I could try that with the hot dogs (or whatever I use) and walking Rosa first. The harness I use on Niko is just for safety in the truck, so he has to be wearing it in the vehicle. I could put it on him when we are in the truck, but by then I imagine he has a pretty good idea that we are going somewhere.  



Jax08 said:


> Just a side note on the hotdog thing...I had a vet check for Jax the day after training using hot dogs as a treat. Ran a chem 17 just for baseline because she's young and healthy and her pancreas level was 3000 over the highest normal level!
> 
> Use lower fat treats! Chicken would be good.


Wow, good to know!!!! He gets boiled chicken for his dinner, so I was trying to give him something higher value. I've been thinking about experimenting with Liquid Smoke flavor in the dog treats I make, maybe I can dose the chicken with it to make it more interesting than his dinner.



Jax08 said:


> Leah - have you tried adding DHA fish oil to his diet? There is a link somewhere on the other board about a study with with fish oil and aggressiveness.


I have thought about fish oil, but I got confused because I thought someone said that if you give fish oil you need to also give another vitamin supplement along with it and I wasn't clear on the dose or which vitamin was needed. So I thought it best to not mess with it. I get nervous about supplements, I don't want to create an imbalance or toxicity... And I can't be convinced that Niko has any real aggression. I think he can be a jerk, wanting to scare off things that scare him before they get close. I think that he has difficulty reading other dogs body language. But I don't think he's aggressive. I hope that is not just wishful thinking on my part, but the trainer we are using agrees with me.



Germanshepherdlova said:


> I got over the fact that my dog wasn't the classic German Shepherd when he was about a year old, and I knew that even though issue after issue had surfaced from within him, that our love for him was just as strong as could be, issues and all-he is my boy. Now I know that he is an opportunity for me to learn so much more about dogs than if he'd been normal. He is 2 1/2 years old now, and I don't think that he is the best that he can be. I know that with our help he will overcome any remaining issues, and just as he has improved so much so far-he will continue to improve. I am one who will never accept that he is as good as he is going to get.


I agree, a problem dog will teach you so much more about raising a dog than a well-adjusted dog. Is there anything specific that makes you believe that you can eventually make your dog "perfect"? Just by knowing how much he has improved? If you hit a plateau in your training, how will you handle it?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I got over the fact that my dog wasn't the classic German Shepherd when he was about a year old, and I knew that even though issue after issue had surfaced from within him, that our love for him was just as strong as could be, issues and all-he is my boy. Now I know that he is an opportunity for me to learn so much more about dogs than if he'd been normal. He is 2 1/2 years old now, and I don't think that he is the best that he can be. I know that with our help he will overcome any remaining issues, and just as he has improved so much so far-he will continue to improve. I am one who will never accept that he is as good as he is going to get.


Now THAT is a nice outlook and it makes me feel like a lazy slug because I am satisfied with my dog. Time to take another look.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Leah - 400 IU Vit. E with fish oil.  I'll send you the links of what I buy. Look on the other board (or ask Lisa) about the study of aggression with fish oil. DHA helps your brain with concentration, etc.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> When did you guys come to accept "the dog that you have" versus "the dog that you wanted?


I am going to respond to this thread before I read any of the other posts.

Leah and a few others on this site know what I have been going through with Stark, in both his behavioural issues and in training. I have shared openly what we have struggled with (and what we excelled at) with this forum over the two years Stark has been with me.

I will say that I have honestly not accepted Stark for the dog he is. The main reason being, I don't think he knows who he is at this time.

Stark (and Niko) are still very young dogs and I think have a lot of maturing to do. I think, at least in regards to Stark, he is very much figuring out what his role is in life and in his environment. 

Having a reactive dog is hard and frustrating and very depressing some days. I don't think those who have had to deal with this type od behaviour really understand what the owners (who actually care and are working to help their dogs with this issue) go through on a daily basis. I really don't.

It's all well and good to spit out advice and tips and such but unless you have dealt with it, found something that has worked for your dog (not all methods will work for every dog all of the time) then it can be very overwhelming and maddening in some cases to hear "what you aren't doing or what you are doing wrong".

When I started researching breeders in my area, I found a lot of them that were very disappointing. Mostly BYB's and those who were breeding pets once or twice.

Stark's breeder has stable dogs, nice pedigrees and she knows her dogs. She is working and titling them to the best of her ability (only a few have titles but she is activitely training and involved) and performing all the proper health testing needed (and wanted) on her breeding stock. So, Stark comes from a good starting place. No other realitives of Stark have these issues.

Socialization has never been lacking in Stark's life. Not from the breeders home or mine. We live in the city where he is exposed to different people, sounds, smells, environments, etc. on a hourly basis. We live in a high rise so meeting new dogs, people and such every time we step out of our door is unavoidable. 

Training classes have been happening from the day he came home and have continued even now at 2 years old. We have been involved in many venues and will continue to be.

Stark is not reactive dogs, but to people. Not everyone, not every time, it is sporatic and hard to determine who he will react too. He has never bitten anyone. He is a barker. He will bark and lunge when he is uncomfortable with someone either approaching or staring at him. He tends to react more so in tight spaces such as a hallway or elevator more so than outside.

I had big plans for Stark, and if I am honest, still do. We train in schutzhund and have taken several agility classes and I would like to trial in both of those. We are going to do some herding this summer as well and I would like for him to work sheep if he shows any promise. 

Our reactivity influnences what we can do and where we can go which is very hard because I want to do it all with him.

This is where I am not yet ready to accept Stark for what he is right now. I am not ready to say, "he is reactive so he can't do it, let's just stop". I can't do it yet. It causes stress when we are out and about at these places and I know he may react at any time but we still go out and do it.

We have been working on different methods to manage/fix? his reactivity and so far he has been pretty good but still has episodes where he reacts.

Do I want a dog without reactivity issues? Yes, I do. Do I want a different dog other than Stark? No, I don't. Am I disappointed in how things played out? Yes, a little if I am being honest. I wish we could walk down the street and not worry about who was approaching, where that person went and just enjoy our walk but that is not the life Stark and I lead. Every time we step out of our front door we are working on his reactivity and that can be tiring; for both of us.

I guess I am not really ready to aceept that Stark will always be reactive and that we will have to change our plans or experience less because of his behavioural issues.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Sounds like Stark is one very lucky fella! Keep up the work with him and I bet he will surprise you someday.


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## Tessa99999 (Apr 16, 2010)

This is definitely a tough post for my to respond to. My GSD also has issues, and we are far from perfect. There have been huge improvements though in a short amount of time. I don't really believe that we will never be able to improve on something. I don't believe in giving up on the idea of us being able to do something in particular or it being too hard. I do try to be reasonable with my short term goals though. I highly doubt that my dog will ever be a happy-go-lucky really friend lab like dog, but I do think she can be a safe and moderately friendly dog. Keep up the good work. It takes tons and tons of time. Keep your goals reasonable. Try not to get frustrated (as hard as it is at times) it doesn't help your cause. Celebrate your successes no matter how small, and try to learn from your mistakes.

It's really hard work. I know. I'm not even there yet, but I truly feel that it can be done.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Celebrate your successes no matter how small


Amen!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Sounds like Stark is one very lucky fella! Keep up the work with him and I bet he will surprise you someday.


Thank you.

I know he has the potential to do it all but his reactivity is very limiting - at this point in time.

I hope that one day we can have a zillion letters after his name to show the world just how awesome he is - even though I already know that he is.


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## Tessa99999 (Apr 16, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I guess I am not really ready to aceept that Stark will always be reactive and that we will have to change our plans or experience less because of his behavioural issues.


This almost makes me cry. I feel the same way with my reactive dog. I am not ready to give up. I do not want to experience less because we "can't do it." Keep up the good work. I know it will pay off in the end! It is so worth it!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Tessa99999 said:


> This is definitely a tough post for my to respond to. My GSD also has issues, and we are far from perfect. There have been huge improvements though in a short amount of time. I don't really believe that we will never be able to improve on something. I don't believe in giving up on the idea of us being able to do something in particular or it being too hard. I do try to be reasonable with my short term goals though. I highly doubt that *my dog will ever be a happy-go-lucky really friend lab like dog,* but I do think she can be a safe and moderately friendly dog. Keep up the good work. It takes tons and tons of time. Keep your goals reasonable. Try not to get frustrated (as hard as it is at times) it doesn't help your cause. Celebrate your successes no matter how small, and try to learn from your mistakes.
> 
> It's really hard work. I know. I'm not even there yet, but I truly feel that it can be done.


Not to worry - a GSD is not supposed to be Lab like! Thay are supposed to be aloof yet approachable.

My problem is that my dog (3 1/2 yo male GSD) is too friendly most of the time - figures that most people should be his friend. OTOH, if someone pricks his protectivness then he will react with suspicion and sometimes barking.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I know he has the potential to do it all but his reactivity is very limiting - at this point in time.
> 
> I hope that one day we can have a zillion letters after his name to show the world just how awesome he is - even though I already know that he is.


It is VERY tough with a dog who is well trained and knows all the exercises but can't show him yet as he can be sometimes Dog reactive so I can't quite trust him in the ring.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I was told by a trainer that Daisy needed to be put down if my desire was to have a dog that interacted well with kids and other dogs. Socilization(Dog Park Puppy Play) was not working and her prey drive was intense enough that she knocked over small children,chased down a door to door religous visitor,knocked him down and spent all her puppy play and dog play dates in time out.I love Daisy so Daisy goes to parks in the winter ,state parks in early spring and late fall ,walks in the farmers woods and in general plays with her brother Lucky and before that Dodger. I changed what I expected. Lucky goes to the Local dog show and walks around on leash unless its to hot.Lucky does not have the same issues as Daisy so his life is different.If I could turn back time I would work with a trainer at home and find someone who likes shepherds. I believe Daisy has had a good life and I love her and she is mine.Daisy snuggles with me,I have taken food out of her mouth,she loves her groomer and her new vet and her old one. She didnt do agility or obedience but she was loved and I learned alot.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

codmaster said:


> It is VERY tough with a dog who is well trained and knows all the exercises but can't show him yet as he can be sometimes Dog reactive so I can't quite trust him in the ring.


Yes, it is very hard when you have goals for yourself and your dog and you see the potential (and others see the potential) and yet there is something holding you back that you have no control over.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Thank you for sharing that about Stark. You are one of the people who I was referring to when I said that there are really great dog owners on this forum who do everything right and still have issues.

Thanks to everyone else who has shared their story, it helps to know we are not alone, doesn't it?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I gave up with Moose when I exhausted what I could reasonably do for him. What made the final decision was when I started thinking about what Moose wanted and not what I wanted for him. It was stressful for him to go out in public. He was much happier just to be able to stay at home and to be shut up when we had company. 

We changed our thinking to do what we could to make Moose's life happy and looked to Bison, our new dog to take places and do more advanced training. He was much happier and we were too.


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## Tuckered (Sep 14, 2010)

I am SOOO happy that someone else has posted this same thing that I was just thinking last week!! Our German Shepherd has(had) leash agression. She seems to choose when her leash bothers her. We've been taking her for leash free walks in local leash free parks around us. These have helped her beyond belief. We went through the training and paid close to $1000 for it up to now, the training made a wonderful foundation for us and now we are working on it outside of that. 
Last week I was thinking the same thing, she has made wonderful progress so far, when do I accept that she may never get as comfortable as what I want to her be. I will always work WITH her, and always work to improve because with many others I believe this is a lengthy process and like people it takes time. I've begun to accept that I tell people when they have their dogs that "she may not play nice if she's on her leash", but that doesn't mean that she isn't still making progress. 
We took her to a "dog park" which made her worse, now we play fetch off leash and go for leash free walks. She does an outstanding job, and that's where the rewards come in for her and me. I think with GSD's we always have work to do with them whether it's a job for them, a trick, an activity, or training


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

if you are comfortable with your current trainer and are seeing results even if its slow i would stay with it..........i also think persistance and constant exposure over and over again is the key.........your learning something from every situation and you can go accordingly for the next situation.........its all about gaining confidence as a handler and applying things in the right combo fr each individual dog....sometimes it takes a Long time to figure it all out......i am still working with my young male, never thought he'd progress to the point he has, but its taken a long time, finding the right training help, and alot of thinking and research on my part and applying different things to the equasion until i found the right combo of stuff..........


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I'm torn on my feelings. 

She can react to some dogs in some situations (usually too close in her space). Did I do this because I didn't allow her to meet every dog we passed on the the street, was it because she was attacked a few times and I couldn't protect her (and I have protected her many times), is it in her make up? She first displayed this at 16 months in level 4 obedience training when she pinned a poodle who was always lungng at her and staring her down, that was over a year ago. I've been working on it ever since.

I've given up on my dreams, and that makes me extremely sad. I wanted to title her in everything I could. I enjoy obedience training. I got her to do obedience work and to meet other people with that same objective. Now I can't. I wanted to go for walks and meet other dog owners, now I cross the sidewalk and don't talk to them when they and I want to because I'm worried about "is this a dog she will react to".

I don't think I could ever trust her to do a down stay and not go after another dog if that dog broke the stay and got in her face. This has happened before the 16 month mark and there were no issues as she kept her down stay and just looked at the dog running around like a fool (same poodle). 

I could do Rally-O on leash. But I would have to be very careful in class to make sure we don't get too close to a dog she may react to. I can control myself but I cannot control others. I would be stressed and I'm sure Dakota would be stressed because I am.

So I'm crossing the road, stepping off the sidewalk, always watching when we go for walks, playing the LAT game, treating. I cannot let my guard down and that is making me be on edge. 

It breaks my heart because I did not get the dog I wanted, and I worked so hard, socializing, obedience classes, behaviourists, training, reading, etc. I could deal with her not getting exercises, that would be my fault as a trainer. I'm missing the off leash hikes I used to go on. I miss the dog walking club I used to go to. 

But these are my feelings. My dog is a very well loved member of our family. We all know her shortcomings and manage it. She is great with people and children both known and friendly strangers (not experienced and unfriendly stranger yet). She is great with new situations. Does she care that I cannot compete in obedience. NOPE. I care, but every day that is fading as she is perfect for me in every other aspect, and that I'm very thankful for.

My behaviouist often told the class many times to train for the dog you have not the dog you want. I just have to accept it, and I will. I will always work with her and have hope that we can pass all dogs on a sidewalk as if they were not there.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Wow! Sounds just like Baron (3.5 yo male GSD).

Usually very calm and friendly to other dogs but once in a while takes a real dislike to another dog - usually a big male who stares at him then BARK and LUNGE!

Same issues - can't really trust him altho he is getting better. Very friendly to kids and most dogs and people and even cats!

But I feel the same pain/sadness/loss because of this issue.

But we will continue to work on it and hope! Maybe when he gets to be a senior citizen he will tolerate all other dogs better.


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