# Vets take on foods



## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

We went to the vet today for second shots, and I mentioned I wanted to switch our pup from Royal Canin to either Orijen or Go Natural Salmon....The lady who assisted the vet had lots to say about foods. She also used to breed (weiner dogs and another breed....can't remember now)....She stated that dogs are actually omnivours not carnivours and ppl seem to think dogs should be on raw diets and meats.....she stated cats are in fact carnivours, but dogs strive on a balanced diet consisting more of veggies and greens. She said she has seen an increase in dogs becoming sick/having medical issues from raw meat diets. I told her I have heard good things about Go Natural and Orijen, and she summed it up as best as she could for me that a lot of these smaller manufacturers of foods don't have the same inspection testing that many of the bigger ones do like royal canin....so for instance the smaller companies are not necessarily doing all the proper testing...working with vets etc.... and that when you hear about batches of foods that are causing dogs to get sick, that it's usually from these smaller companies. I'm not sure what to believe of all this....She said she used to feed her dogs royal canin but because of all the proteins, her dogs didn't handle it well....So she switched over to Hills Science diet and her dogs did great....She than switched over to Wellness (?) and loved that too, so her dogs are now on that. I have been researching a lot, but there are so many different takes on foods. They shouldn't have grain, then some say grain is good.... Does anyone have any articles on foods?? I remember someone mentioned a site where you can see ratings or discussions on different foods, was wondering if you could post a link for me. And whats your take on this?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Did you ask her where she got her degree in nutrition? I"ve had Jax on a raw diet for about 2 years now. Had a Chem 17 done on her for kicks and giggles and it was perfect.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

So says the vets assistant...

1. Dogs are carnivores, not omnivores. That's a fact.
2. A well (and properly) balanced raw diet is the best diet for a healthy carnivore.
3. Ask 10 people and you'll get 10 different opinions about the best kibble for a dog. The best one is the one that works.
4. Completely wrong about small companies, quality control, and recalls. Just look up the whole Diamond fiasco from a few years back. That's no small company.
5. Don't take too much stock into what a vet's assistant has to say about dog nutrition any more than what a mailman or a police officer has to say on the subject. We're all know-it-alls and we all know whats best. A vets assistant is no different. Educate yourself and go from there.


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## Geeheim (Jun 18, 2011)

Is this the site you are looking for? -Dog Food Reviews

I use that site all the time. Lots of great info on there.


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks Lucy....I always thought dogs were carnivores...but after she said they weren't I guess I believed her seeing this is my first dog ever! I'm so overwhelmed with all the food choices. Isis had coccidia, and her pills are done but her stool is still extremely soft, so I'm wondering if its the food. Maybe its to rich for her, and that's why I wanted to switch her. Our breeder suggested Go Salmon as her other dogs did great on it, and I was also considering Orijen as many others have talked about it as well. I think I'm just going to do my own thing and see what works for her. There are so many contradictions in regards to foods and what is best for them.


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

Geeheim said:


> Is this the site you are looking for? -Dog Food Reviews
> 
> I use that site all the time. Lots of great info on there.


Yes thank you! Perfect timing lol kiddos are sleeping and I finally have time to read up on it lol


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

GSD84 said:


> I think I'm just going to do my own thing and see what works for her.


That would be my advice. Do your research, try something out, and go from there. 

Don't use a food because you read good things about it on the internet. Feed something that works best for your puppy. You're only going to find that out by trial and error. 

Good luck!


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

That is almost word for word what the new vet at the old clinic I went to said re: high end, non-grocery store brands. Apparently, according to this vet Orijen hasn't been around very long so doesn't have the track record and testing of more dependable brands like SD, Iams & Purina. I wasn't aware that 25 years wasn't very long and it has passed the same AAFCO feed trials that SD, Iams & Purina did.

DogFoodAnalysis has ratings for food if that is the site you are looking for.

My personal feel on the issue of grains is that while dogs are not obligate carnivores like cats they are carnivores. A few grains here and there aren't going to kill the dog but they are most assuredly not necessary and Shania has done best with grains limited to the PB&J toast she weasels out of my mother each morning.


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## Cetan (Oct 8, 2011)

I prefer DogFoodAdvisor, I like the formatting and user comments. both are good sites though. 

Any vet that's pushing Science Diet... They probably get some sort of kick-back from the company.

I'm going to go with what my breeder is using when I pick him up. He's the expert, and I'm sure after all his time working with the dogs, he knows what works best for his dogs. It's not that I don't want to be educated about dog food... it's just it's like everyone says. "10 people will recommend 10 different brands" and "The best brand is the one that works for your dog."


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

...She told you dogs are not carnivores and eat mainly plant based foods? 

I would have gotten up and left that moment. She needs to take a look in a dog's mouth and figure out what those sharp teeth are meant for.


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## Geeheim (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, DogFoodAdvisor is another good site. I forgot about that one. =)


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Wild Wolf said:


> She needs to take a look in a dog's mouth and figure out what those sharp teeth are meant for.


To poke holes in all those leaves they were designed to eat... DUH!!


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

Lol this is not our clinic lol... Was a different one than the one we usually go to. The vet was good. The assistant not so good lol


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> So says the vets assistant...
> 
> 1. Dogs are carnivores, not omnivores. That's a fact.
> 2. A well (and properly) balanced raw diet is the best diet for a healthy carnivore.
> ...


 
I have to disagree that dogs are not omnivores. A dog will eat just about anything it's fed. Including horse manure, christmas presents, and even McDonalds.:crazy:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

mthurston0001 said:


> I have to disagree that dogs are not omnivores. A dog will eat just about anything it's fed. Including horse manure, christmas presents, and even McDonalds.:crazy:


So what's that have to do with their biological makeup? I'd probably eat some pretty nasty stuff too if I was hungry enough. It doesn't mean my body was made to eat that stuff.

Dogs are most definitely carnivores.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Dogs are carnivores by design but they have been eating garbage for 10s of thousands of years so they have evolved to be able to digest more than just meat. Just look at the contents of any dry dog food whether it is 'high end' or not. Even the grain free dog foods contain a lot of non-meat ingredients.
Vets are in the bag with Science Diet, everyone knows that.
Dogs thrive on high-meat-content diets that also include a wide variety of vegetables as long as they are not allergic to them. But research is important to exclude those vegetables that are toxic. By "vegetables" I also mean fruits and nuts. For example, the only safe nut is peanut and even that can be a problem for some dogs.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Seriously though, nobody knows what food is best but everyone thinks they might. It's a messy and confusing world full of studies, facts, and theories that can point a thousand different directions. Like Paul said earlier, find somthing that works for your particular dog and stick with it.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Perhaps she meant that dogs are not obligate carnivores. Cats are obligate carnivores.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

Vets' nutrition courses are provided by the big name dog food companies (like Science Diet and Purina). They also may see a lot of dogs whose owners started feeding raw or homeprepared because they heard it was good, but didn't do their research so that they are feeding an imbalanced diet.
Most vets are going to disagree with homeprepared diets and maybe even higher-end foods like Orijen. (I had a vet tell me that a dog will have smaller stool on Eukenuba than on a homeprepared diet. I'm sure if you're feeding something with more grains than Eukenuba it'd be true in that case, but I seriously doubt it'd be smaller than the stools from a rawfed dog.)

I'm not saying we should just shove a vet's opinion on nutrition out the window, but at the same time I don't take it as the end all, be all. I strongly disagree with most of them on that subject.
I don't like confrontations, so I don't do much in the department of discussing it with them, though. My brother was there last time and began muttering that one line from the Blue Buffalo commercial ("don't be fooled by the pet food companies" or something like that), I was like "do you have to do that?!"


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I might add that usually when dogs get sick from raw diets it's the owner's fault for not being clean enough. Seriously some people don't wash the dog bowl after feeding raw. How gross is that? My boss has 5 dogs and two fosters right now and three of them eat raw. They have small solid stools and great coats. They eat Primal right now. 

Purina feline DM (diabetic maintaince) was the first commercial dry cat food to be recalled due to melanine poisoning. My vet and I were shocked by an "old school" American company can't even process in the USA. I asked what should I do?
She told me to look for the highest protein possible. That's when I found EVO. I don't need insulin for my cat anymore. At the time Nutura was a small local based company that owned it's own processing plants. Now it's owned by Proctor and Gamble. Evo will continue to be small time (so they say). Innova, Cal Natural, Natural Balance...may be marketed to big box stores. If they haven't already been.

I have recently switched my dogs over to Orijens Regional Red meat and they love it. My dogs have never been too food motivated, well at least the GSD. Now she can't get her rear-end on the floor fast enough to be presented her meals. I haven't noticed to much of a change in the cleaning of the poop area either. 
I'm fairly confident that even being a Canadian company; that they don't ship anything overseas to be processed. That was my main concern. Purina processes in China. So no, I will not use their product.
Where does the company process? And, how do they do it? Those are big questions in my book.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

lol dogs eat roadkill if they get the chance. Not washing the bowl after feeding isn't going to make them sick. Shoot, mine never left anything to wash out of the bowl except drool anyway.

The main reason dogs get sick on raw is that people don't research and feed a balanced appropriate diet.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Vets get ONE sememster of nutrition. ONE SEMESTER - 3 hours a week of nutrition in 4 years of school (3 class, 1 clinical year)....Nutrition covers ALL species....dogs, cats, horses, cows, birds, exotics.....

Hills give all the vet schools tons of freebies, sponsers class activities, a few scholarships....lots and lots of presence in the vet school experience....LOTS! Somewhere I have/had tote bags, hats and t-shirts from a Hills sponsored class picnic 

Vet clinics sell their stuff.....draw your own conclusions!

Lee


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm gonna jump in and say that I think dogs are carnivores. Let them choose a carrot over a meaty bone and you tell me which one they'll take. I guess after the bone is gone, they probably would eat the carrot so I guess they are omnivours? But have we made them that way? 

Speaking of food & vets, it wasn't a vet but at Petco yesterday the girl I was talking to - holy cow! She was helping me find treats for Knuckles because the kind I had (cheap grocery store type) was giving him diarrhea). After I got the treats I wanted she started in on food and I swear she had stock in Blue Buffalo, she even pulled some out of her pocket as a treat for Knuckles - and literature for me!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

well, sometimes Rayden will take a sweet potato chuck over a bone lol A member of my kennel club uses sweet potato as a training treat for her Grand Champion St. Bernard. 
I think that the woman meant obligate carnivores, like cats. Dogs will happily and willingly gather their own fruit and veggies. Just yesterday I had to stop Singe from ODing on persimmons. He was hoovering them up as fast as he could find them in the grass.

About PetCo, the dog food companies hire reps to visit stores and plug their specific brand of food.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Dainerra said:


> well, sometimes Rayden will take a sweet potato chuck over a bone lol A member of my kennel club uses sweet potato as a training treat for her Grand Champion St. Bernard.
> I think that the woman meant obligate carnivores, like cats. Dogs will happily and willingly gather their own fruit and veggies. Just yesterday I had to stop Singe from ODing on persimmons. He was hoovering them up as fast as he could find them in the grass.
> 
> About PetCo, the dog food companies hire reps to visit stores and plug their specific brand of food.


Anyone that has been around coyotes knows that they don't eat only meat. They will gladly eat other things, and it is not because meat is scarce.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Around here, coyote scat has blackberry seeds in it whenever they are in season.

But I don't believe dogs are true omnivores. Dogs are not "obligate carnivores" like cats, who will die if they do not get meat in their diet. Dogs can survive on a meatless diet, though I'd argue whether they thrive. 

While dogs *will* eat anything and everything, their teeth are designed for gripping, tearing, and shearing meat as that is what they evolved to eat. Their bodies are built for killing prey, and given the choice, they will choose meat over plant material. Bears, pigs, and humans are true omnivores--they can thrive on both animal or vegetable protein. True omnivores have (in addition to meat-processing teeth) flat-topped molars designed to grind up vegetation. Dogs don't have these. 

While I don't think it's wrong to give grains, vegetables, and fruit to dogs, I don't think they require starches in their diet. I feed raw and I do give a powdered "green" supplement along with it, as I notice my dogs like to eat grass. That doesn't mean they would thrive on a diet of grass, however.


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

Dogs are what we call opportunistic feeders. Yes coyotes will eat anything they can and would rather eat a tasty toy dog over a salad. We have a coyote problem here.

Yes Hills pushes their food hard on vets and vet techs. I did the vet tech thing and they pushes Hills on use too. We got discount food and stuff. Hills does lots of research it's good food but not the best. But they are one of the only brands that make prescription food.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

As much as I'm not a fan of taking a vets advice on food, I'm also not a fan of those rating sites. They're based purely on the OPINION of the creator. I don't know of one site that the creator has a degree in animal nutrition. So why take a dentist advice over a vet assistance? At least one of them actually works with animals. :/

I personally find my dog does great on a food with *gasp* CORN!!!!! I feed a food that's used and sworn by for many hunters. The food is EU certified, no GMO ingredients and never been recalled. (Which can't be said for most other brands) Just because it's got corn doesn't mean it's Kibbles N' Bits quality or lacks any meat. It's far from that! Good balance of fat (20%) and protein (24%) but a bit of corn to help maintain hard keepers. Chance did great on it too, and no he didn't die from any health problems.

I'm incredibly happy with the food! My girl is growing at a steady rate (She's 8.6lb now! ), her big girl coat is coming in beautiful, she's got a nice shine to her coat and she's sooo soft!!! Her skin is clean and healthy, her eyes are clear, clean non-smelly ears, beautiful teeth and she has two small, firm poops twice a day like clockwork!

THAT is what matters.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Also a note that the vet assistant wasn't necessarily recommending Iams, Science Diet, Purina, ect. If you re-read the post you'll see they (the vet assistant) now feeds WELLNESS and is HAPPY with it. I think they just don't feel strongly about feeding an all meat diet or a kibble that has no grains at all.

Grains aren't a new thing in our pets diets, they've been there waaaaaaaay before kibble was ever created. They ate whatever we ate and most people back in the day weren't wealthy enough to feed meat on a regular basis to the family, much less to their dogs. Grain free foods CAN be a shock to their system. Even some with grains, just smaller amounts. You are what your mother ate. And she is what her mother ate. If you've got generations of eating crap, there is a good chance your dogs going to have problems eating Orijen because it's so rich.

I'm not saying go out and feed Ol' Roy but grains aren't the end of the world in a dogs diet. They're not going to die from the grains themselves.


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