# Someone else's post got me thinking about accidental litters



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

It really never ceases to amuse me how many families accidentally have two purebred, registered dogs of the same sex and accidentally don't have either one fixed and accidentally leave them together when the bitch is in heat and accidentally don't get a mismate shot, so they can accidentally list them in the paper for a couple hundred bucks a pop and accidentally make a tidy profit. 

Because, you know, if you say "oops" it makes you a better person than those nasty breeders who do all those unnecessary tests and shows and events, just so they can jack up the price. 

"We're not breeders, we just had this accidental litter between our two AKC registered dogs and we feel terrible about it. . . that'll be four hundred dollars please." 

For the love of God, just tell the truth. It seemed like an easy way to make extra money without having to. . . you know. . . do work.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

:thumbup:


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

So you know how you see that stuff on craigslist and you're like, if I ever saw this idiot in person I would...


They walk in the dog food store I work at ALLLLL the time asking me questions and trying to post for sale papers on our bulletin board....


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Emoore said:


> of the same sex


I mean different sexes. If they could do it with the same sex they deserve whatever profit they can get.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I mean different sexes. If they could do it with the same sex they deserve whatever profit they can get.


:blush: I've been hoping for some puppies from Sherman and Kaos but neither one of them will cooperate!! As to your OP I agree 100%.....our Craigslist and rescues are full of "accidental" litters.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I know. I always tell people, "There are no OOPS". 
Did you take BIOLOGY in high school and do you realize that two animals of opposite sex WILL breed? Ever hear about the birds and the bees??
I've caused a couple red faces over those questions (in that context).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Candice, just wanted to say, I love your signature!!!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

This is exactly why I get uncomfortable when people espouse waiting until after maturity to spay/neuter. I don't think the general public is savvy or responsible enough to keep intact animals without an accidental pregnancy occurring at some point... I think most of the regular posters HERE are, but I don't think we are representative of the pet-owning majority.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sorta like people who "didn't plan" to get pregnant, it "just happpened". Um, if you're having sex without using birth control it's only a matter of time! If you're not planning NOT to get pregnant then you ARE planning TO get pregnant whether you want to think of it that way or not. Barring known fertility issues, of course.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sorta like people who "didn't plan" to get pregnant, it "just happpened". Um, if you're having sex without using birth control it's only a matter of time! If you're not planning NOT to get pregnant then you ARE planning TO get pregnant whether you want to think of it that way or not. Barring known fertility issues, of course.


Yeah, no lie. My sister-in-law had uterine cancer after her first two were born and was told she could not conceive again. Now she's 40 with an 20 year old, an 18 year old, and a 12-week old.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

And we know that it wasn't accidental how? 

Accidental litters happen... and not everybody knows about the mismatch shot. 

Heck, it could have happened to me if I hadn't noticed that Indra WAS in a silent heat. I have NO idea if something happened or not but they've never been outside long enough to actually "mate" without me noticing unless it happened over night but even then, I believe, that I would have noticed. 

If she's was studded by one of them, I wouldn't even know who the daddy is. Silent heats are tricky and from now on I'll keep a book and as soon as I noticed I kept them separated. 
When Indra went out of heat, Nala went into heat. It was like they are going hand in hand. She's still not in standing heat yet and I crate her over night. Yukon is only interested in sniffing and licking her butt and pee. No attempts on studding. With her, I KNOW whats going on because she actually has discharge. With Indra there is nothing that showed she was in heat. 

Now have somebody inexperienced that wouldn't know the signs, wouldn't know what to look for and wouldn't know when the boys are acting weird around the girls. 

It's an aweful lot of judging involved. I don't like accidental litters as much as anyone else but I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ps: before anyone says anything. If you've ever seen a dog in heat, you know when they are in standing heat so no worries about Indra being studded. There is no prego Indra with unregistered pups out of untitled parents 

Just saying that it can happen to the best of us. It can even happen to the best breeders out there.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mrs.K said:


> And we know that it wasn't accidental how?
> 
> Accidental litters happen... and not everybody knows about the mismatch shot.
> 
> It's an aweful lot of judging involved. I don't like accidental litters as much as anyone else but I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt.


One might be accidental. But the 47 ads on my local Craigslist for purebred, AKC-registered "oops" litters listed at several hundred bucks a pop aren't all accidental. And then when one e-mail address has a couple of different accidental litters available at the same time, one does start to wonder.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Emoore said:


> One might be accidental. But the 47 ads on my local Craigslist for purebred, AKC-registered "oops" litters listed at several hundred bucks a pop aren't all accidental. And then when one e-mail address has a couple of different accidental litters available at the same time, one does start to wonder.


That I agree with.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

May I be so dumb as to ask what a "standing heat" is?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I thought pets couldn't be sold on Craigslist?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDGunner said:


> May I be so dumb as to ask what a "standing heat" is?


It's when the bitch doesn't fight the males off anymore and is ready to "receive".


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

This is why I don't want female dogs, I will have no clue about silent heat, standing heat or whatever else you call them.

Zeus was never neutered but I also did not allow unspayed females around him, he died a virgin.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I thought pets couldn't be sold on Craigslist?


It's against the rules, but people do it anyway.  Some communities are good about flagging off prohibited pet sales, others are not.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Yeah, no lie. My sister-in-law had uterine cancer after her first two were born and was told she could not conceive again. Now she's 40 with an 20 year old, an 18 year old, and a 12-week old.


What a blessing!


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> ps: before anyone says anything. If you've ever seen a dog in heat, you know when they are in standing heat so no worries about Indra being studded. There is no prego Indra with unregistered pups out of untitled parents
> 
> Just saying that it can happen to the best of us. It can even happen to the best breeders out there.


Um...Shasta went through two heat cycles and I have NO idea when she was in standing heat. Her behavior never changed from normal through the whole heat.


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## BlackCat (Sep 22, 2011)

Well, the wierdest story I've ever heard was the one the "breeder" gave to Austin German Shepherd Rescue about the litter she gave up to them. My Bay & Kyrie came from a litter of five and I have photos of the dogs purported to be the parents. The lady giving the puppies up told the rescue she couldn't sell them because she couldn't register them due to the fact she didn't know the exact date of conception. WTF?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

paulag1955 said:


> What a blessing!


The baby is a huge blessing. The pregnancy was a nightmare.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> And we know that it wasn't accidental how?
> 
> Accidental litters happen... and not everybody knows about the mismatch shot.
> 
> ...


Almost sounds like someone is getting their oopsie arguments all in line. I don't buy it. If you have a sexually mature female, there is no reason to leave her loose with a sexually mature male while you are not around. There is something called responsibility. With currently ten sexually mature females, I have yet to have a silent heat. I have had heats with less discharge, but there have always been signs. And males do not go from 0 to tied in 4.3 seconds. Sorry. It takes DAYS for the dog to be interested in the female and whenever she urinates, paying particular attention to it, licking it up, urinating over it, paying attention to her, grooming her, etc, etc, etc. 

If you have a bitch who is in "standing heat" (which some bitches do not ever enter -- not by the definition that the bitch will stand without aggressing), but if you actually have one that is within the three day window of optimum fertilization, and you bring a seasoned dog into the house, leave them together while you are practicing with your rock band, it may happen without anyone being the wiser. 

But frankly, I don't buy the oops litters at all. At least not between two registered canines of the same breed. The inexperienced owner of a young bitch might underestimate the cunning of the rangy, mangy, border collie mix that lives down the road, and that would be an oops. Might a breeder leave bitch and dog together and have a litter, sure. They are fools if they leave a bitch and dog together that would not make a good match. And it is really not so much as an oops, but more of an if-it-does-happen-it's-ok kind of a deal. 

If you choose to keep a bitch intact, than you cannot approach it with the attitude that accidents happen. If you do, the accident is no accident, it was allowed. 

As for the general population, people who are not wasting away within the confines and attitudes of breed forums, I think the majority of them either get their bitch fixed, or want to have puppies. How many people who are not dog-forum-junkies, are our there questioning the practice of spaying bitches? People spay bitches because it is very much more convenient to have a female that does not bleed on carpets, couches, floors, etc. And for the general population, keeping a bitch intact past the first heat cycle is normally done because they are not averse to the idea of having puppies. And if the bitch is a purebred, they probably WANT to have puppies -- at least once. Even people with mixes often want her to have just one litter for whatever behavioral reason they have heard and believed. 

So I just don't believe in the purebred oops at all. In fact, I find the idea that someone is incapable of managing their intact bitch far worse than someone who chooses to breed their bitch. At least in the latter, the individual is taking responsibility for their action.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> As for the general population, people who are not wasting away within the confines and attitudes of breed forums, I think the majority of them either get their bitch fixed, or want to have puppies. How many people who are not dog-forum-junkies, are our there questioning the practice of spaying bitches? People spay bitches because it is very much more convenient to have a female that does not bleed on carpets, couches, floors, etc. And f*or the general population, keeping a bitch intact past the first heat cycle is normally done because they are not averse to the idea of having puppies. * And if the bitch is a purebred, they probably WANT to have puppies -- at least once.


This is kind of what I was getting at, but I've never owned a bitch so you phrased it much better than I could have.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Candice, just wanted to say, I love your signature!!!


Thank you! A little testament to my daily life with a senior and a puppy!! 



selzer said:


> If you choose to keep a bitch intact, than you cannot approach it with the attitude that accidents happen. If you do, the accident is no accident, it was allowed.
> 
> So I just don't believe in the purebred oops at all. In fact, I find the idea that someone is incapable of managing their intact bitch far worse than someone who chooses to breed their bitch. At least in the latter, the individual is taking responsibility for their action.


:thumbup:


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> It's when the bitch doesn't fight the males off anymore and is ready to "receive".


Thanks!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> *Almost sounds like someone is getting their oopsie arguments all in line. I don't buy it.*


Thank you very much for the insult! And that one, I do take personally. Very personally! 




> If you have a sexually mature female, there is no reason to leave her loose with a sexually mature male while you are not around. There is something called responsibility. With currently ten sexually mature females, I have yet to have a silent heat. I have had heats with less discharge, but there have always been signs. And males do not go from 0 to tied in 4.3 seconds. Sorry. It takes DAYS for the dog to be interested in the female and whenever she urinates, paying particular attention to it, licking it up, urinating over it, paying attention to her, grooming her, etc, etc, etc.


Nope, nothing. No signs at all. When I ACTIVELY searched the house for a sign I found two tiny little sprinkles. If I hadn't looked for it, I wouldn't have found it. The only reason why I actually started looking was because of Judges behavior. He started humping E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G. 
I am pretty sure that some can remember my posts on Facebook about him realizing he's actually a male. First time I looked I didn't find anything at all and I was like "She's not in heat, what the heck is going on with him." Then I inspected the house from top to bottom and that's when I found some teenie tiny sprinkles. 

It's her *second *silent heat. She's two years old, you'd think she had a normal heat. So far, she hasn't. Since this is the second time. I even told my mom and team mate that she's got to get into heat sometime because it's been half a year. So keeping a book about her "heat" will keep me prepared for the next time. Her first heat was very late anyways. She was over a year old and I was like "Okay, it's her first heat, second heat will be different." ... guess I was wrong. 

They have not been out of sight long enough for accidents to happen.

Paperless German Shepherds are worth absolutely nothing. Not where I am from and do you really believe I would let anything happen "ON PURPOSE" while Indra isn't even OFA'ed? Are you serious? They wouldn't even get AKC papers. 
They'd make some nice working pups, come from strong genetic backgrounds but how many breeders are out there with the same lines, registered and titled? Anyone on here should know me well enough that I wouldn't let that happen. I'm waaay too oldschool for having an unregistered litter, without any kind or form of certification or OFA results. 

All I am saying is that accidents happen. **** happens. It's a fact of life. Accepting and knowing that they can happen is important to actually prevent them. If you don't accept the fact or knowledge that if you don't try to prevent them you WILL have an Ooops litter later down the road, is what makes it dangerous. You can't be blind to the fact that there will never be any oops litters.

As soon as I noticed that she was in heat she got separated. 
Nala is separated as well. There isn't anything else anyone can do, other than keeping them separated and crated during the critical time.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I have yet to have a silent heat.


Just because your dogs don't have it, doesn't mean that others haven't experienced it and I believe, others on here have gone through silent heats before. If I remember correctly there have been topics about it previously. 

It's new for me too. Thank god Nala has a normal heat. She's very clean but at least you find blood drops around the house without having to actively search for them. I wouldn't want to deal with two females like that. Not sure how her third heat is going to be like... :help:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> This is exactly why I get uncomfortable when people espouse waiting until after maturity to spay/neuter. I don't think the general public is savvy or responsible enough to keep intact animals without an accidental pregnancy occurring at some point... I think most of the regular posters HERE are, but I don't think we are representative of the pet-owning majority.


YES YES YES! I totally agree!!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's all the more reason to watch out if you have an intact female...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs. K, you do not wait around to see blood spots in the house, LOL! Some bitches are VERY clean, and clean up after themselves, that is not a silent heat. That is a clean bitch. Sorry. You go with a kleenex and check her for spotting, not every day, but when you notice her paying attention, when the timing is right, if the boy is acting more attentive, if the girls are acting different. Not hard to figure out your bitch is in heat. 

If you are going by some book, every six months or so, get ready for an oops. Bitches do not ALWAYS stay on schedule, especially young bitches. They can be brought in by another being in heat, the herd effect. So you have to be careful, that is all. It isn't that hard, really. 

The reason people say "oops!" is because they bred the bitch early or before OFAs or before titles or whatever. They do not generally say oops when they have a mature, titled, health screened bitch get pregnant. Why should they? They then list the sire and the dam and their pedigrees etc. 

They wouldn't get AKC papers because of a lack of OFA, or is that because you don't have papers yet on the male or female? If you have either pink papers or AKC full registration papers on sire and dam you can get AKC on the pups regardless of titles or OFA. 

I will not have an oops litter. I am sure of that. Not worried about it at all. And I wasn't even when I had two intact males. Because it ISN'T that hard to manage intact animals. People get in trouble when they WANT it to happen, or if they simply do not care if it does. People who want it not to happen, make sure it does not.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Dearest Selzer... you really think I didn't do that and don't know how to check a bitch that is in heat? I would be really dumb if I hadn't checked her with a Tissue. 

I was watching her because it was "that" time of a year. I live with that dog 24/7 since I am home all day long. 

NOBODY NOTICED! That includes our Obedience Trainer since we had obedience training during her heat cycle. She couldn't clean herself up during those two hours. Nor could she clean herself up during team training. We WOULD have noticed if she had shown any signs of Estrus! 
The only reason why I noticed was because of the males. If they hadn't changed their behavior, I would have not known that she was in heat. I was WAITING for her to go into heat. Even talked to my mother about it. 

As for AKC. They are not AKC registered. Indra has pink papers, Nala has pink papers, Yukon has pink papers (still waiting on those) but they are not registered so they wouldn't get papers. Even if Indra was OFA'ed. I don't want a litter. 

Have you seen her? Do you live with her 24/7 a day? I know my dog and she is not the type of dog that constantly cleans herself. Nala on the other hand is. 

You are right. It's not that hard to know when a dog is in heat IF there are signs of it. Keeping Book is just one more way for myself to record when they've been in heat. If she doesn't go into heat I know when to go to vet to check if something suppresses her heat cycle. I am going to watch the males behavior when it's THAT time of the year again since she doesn't. 

And you MAY want to read up on Silent Heats. It's not that uncommon. 

You are ASSUMING things.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Look, you said the boy knew she was in heat. Therefore, you knew. You did not let her get pregnant, good job. You said you found some spots when you were looking for them. Whatever. 

I don't buy that you can have a male and female together who get to the point of natural mating without ever noticing anything. I have seen the process too many times for that, sorry. It isn't rocket science.

And, if you want to be a breeder, I think that maybe you should be a little more confident about being able to manage your intact animals. If you cannot, then maybe you should get your bitches fixed. If your bitch has light heats or silent heats, you know that, and you can adjust for it -- so you have no excuse for having any accidental pregnancy.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Everyone isn't perfect or devious....mistakes happen for real. Anyway, some of the on purpose breedings are worse for the breed, imo. The dogs won't pass to their progeny your intentions or lack thereof, they will pass the genes the dog is made up of. Still, everyone should be vigilant about staying on top of their program.....but the unforgiving attitude is very sanctimonious.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> Look, you said the boy knew she was in heat. Therefore, you knew. You did not let her get pregnant, good job. You said you found some spots when you were looking for them. Whatever.
> 
> I don't buy that you can have a male and female together who get to the point of natural mating without ever noticing anything. I have seen the process too many times for that, sorry. It isn't rocket science.
> 
> And, if you want to be a breeder, I think that maybe you should be a little more confident about being able to manage your intact animals. If you cannot, then maybe you should get your bitches fixed. If your bitch has light heats or silent heats, you know that, and you can adjust for it -- so you have no excuse for having any accidental pregnancy.


Who said I am not confident in managing them? I manage them just fine but I don't really want to have to deal with her having a silent heat, constantly because you have to watch extra carefully. You've got kennels, I don't. 

We are talking about the general public, Selzer. You notice. I notice because I've seen it too many times myself which is why I noticed that she was in heat. We know when something is up, even if there are no obvious signs of Estrus. The general public doesn't have that common sense and they haven't seen it as many times as you and me or other breeders. 

We are talking about people that think of fear biters as protective dogs and the "He's friendly" Fraction. 
They probably don't even know that there are different stages within the heat and that there are certain days that you SHOULDN'T let them get together and that it's NOT play when the male nibbles and groomes and is trying to impress the bitch.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The unforgiving attitude? Sorry, but it is just amazing how many oops litters happen out of two AKC registered dogs of the same breed. I don't buy it. People like the idea of rescuing dogs, people don't like the idea of buying from an established breeder. People are ok if you make a mistake and your dogs breed, people think you are the scum of the earth if you breed your dogs on purpose. People are claiming oops litters because they then do not need to go the whole nine yards. They can just say Whoops! and every one will accept them with open arms because they are human. 

In our current climate, it is more acceptable to accidently (on purpose) let your dogs breed, than to go through all the steps and breed a litter, with forethought, with health checks, etc. 

People will qualify that they bought their puppy from someone who had an oops litter, simply because we all know how bad it is to go to a BYB, or to go to any breeder for that matter. But it is perfectly acceptable to buy a pup out of an accidental litter. How many mistakes is a person allowed. If they have an accidental litter every six months are the still oops?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Exactly Selzer. It perpetuates this idea that people who are purposeful and conscientious in their breeding program, people who put time and effort and sweat into breeding quality dogs are breeders-- and HSUS and PETA have made it clear that breeders are uncaring, callous individuals who only care about their dogs for what they can get out of them. That's why so many ads for puppies begin with "I am not a breeder. . ."

But who can blame an oops? It was an accident. You're not supporting one of those evil breeders who charges so much for their dogs and only cares about profit. You're helping to give a good home to a puppy who was born by accident. You're a good person.

And I just frickin' don't buy 47 ads for purebred, registered "oops" litters on Craigslist. One or two, sure. But 47? I don't like liars. And I really don't like liars who make a profit off pumping out puppies and selling them to an unsuspecting public.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I know that oops litter is like waving a red flag to you but I gotta tell you I've never had the impression that someone thought it was more acceptable to buy a pup from an oops litter.

I don't think you will find any disagreement with the oops litter every 6 months but I didn't think that was the type of situation you were chastising Mrs. K for.

OP yes. The back and forth between you two no.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> Who said I am not confident in managing them? I manage them just fine but I don't really want to have to deal with her having a silent heat, constantly because you have to watch extra carefully. You've got kennels, I don't.
> 
> We are talking about the general public, Selzer. You notice. I notice because I've seen it too many times myself which is why I noticed that she was in heat. We know when something is up, even if there are no obvious signs of Estrus. The general public doesn't have that common sense and they haven't seen it as many times as you and me or other breeders.
> 
> ...


My brother is the general public. He has never had a litter of puppies. He has had up to two intact bitches and a dog living in his home without kennels (he did have crates). 

And he never had a pregnant bitch. 

I still think that the vast majority of registratable oops litters happen accidentally purpose. I think people figure it out quite fast that they can sell their puppies quicker and get away without having the knowledge or the background work done if they just say oops. This includes John Q Public, in fact it mostly is John Q Public. 

Again, even most of the people that come on saying whoops were planning to breed at some point, but not when the pup was 8 or 10 months old, etc. They are John Q Public until they come on looking for help with the litter. John Q Public has no clue what they are getting into, but they bought their dog for $400 and they think it will not be that difficult to get their purchase price back and then some.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> The unforgiving attitude? Sorry, but it is just amazing how many oops litters happen out of two AKC registered dogs of the same breed. I don't buy it. People like the idea of rescuing dogs, people don't like the idea of buying from an established breeder. People are ok if you make a mistake and your dogs breed, people think you are the scum of the earth if you breed your dogs on purpose. People are claiming oops litters because they then do not need to go the whole nine yards. They can just say Whoops! and every one will accept them with open arms because they are human.
> 
> In our current climate, it is more acceptable to accidently (on purpose) let your dogs breed, than to go through all the steps and breed a litter, with forethought, with health checks, etc.
> 
> People will qualify that they bought their puppy from someone who had an oops litter, simply because we all know how bad it is to go to a BYB, or to go to any breeder for that matter. But it is perfectly acceptable to buy a pup out of an accidental litter. How many mistakes is a person allowed. If they have an accidental litter every six months are the still oops?



What differs them from you? You've got the CGC and the RN on most of your dogs. Does that make them breedworthy? How do you determine that your dogs are breedworthy and have what it takes to be bred? What makes them breedworthy? Have you ever seen them under real pressure? 

What makes anyone, that isn't familiar with your experience think the same way of you as of any other BYB? 

You have one dog that is titled and you imported that one. 

So what exactly do your dogs to better the breed? 

These are questions that somebody could ask about your breeding program...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> People will qualify that they bought their puppy from someone who had an oops litter, simply because we all know how bad it is to go to a BYB, or to go to any breeder for that matter. But it is perfectly acceptable to buy a pup out of an accidental litter.


I think you give the general public way too much credit for giving any of this as much thought as you think they do.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> .....but the unforgiving attitude is very sanctimonious.


I realize that we live in a morally relativistic society, that what's true for me might not be true for you, and we're not supposed to use words like "right" and "wrong" and "good" and "bad." I guess I'm a backward *******, but I just think lying to sell dogs (or anything else) is plain wrong. I'm just a simple country girl, but I think that not telling the truth so that people will feel better about buying your product is a bad thing. I'm sorry if that offends you. 


I could see one or two happening on occasion. 

With 47 "I'm not a breeder but. . ." ads on my local craigslist for registered pups, some of which have two or three litters available at the same phone number at the same time. . . . somebody's lying. It makes me angry.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Deleted because one of the posts I referred to was deleted.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Emoore said:


> I
> I could see one or two happening on occasion.
> 
> With 47 "I'm not a breeder but. . ." ads on my local craigslist for registered pups, some of which have two or three litters available at the same phone number at the same time. . . . somebody's lying. It makes me angry.


I agree with you. I've never noticed the ads reading oops type breeding, I'm going to have to look now.

Reminds me of someone that married into my family. Multiple pregnancies and all were accidents. It was all I could do not to roll my eyes.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think you give the general public way too much credit for giving any of this as much thought as you think they do.


Right on Whiteshepherds. The general public doesn't care about most of what is discussed on dog forums. IMO


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

OK it's not 47 anymore, that was before Christmas.  

You'll also see people posting, "Wanting to adopt a registered (whatever breed) puppy, 6-8 weeks old. I do not want to go to a breeder." Maybe it's just me but I see that a lot.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Not dirty, valid questions. 

How do you differ the BYB from somebody without working titles? CGC and RN are not working titles. Even the Showline dogs in Germany have to be titled. 

What makes these dogs so different from others without working titles? 

How many breeders on here have been labeled as BYB even thought their dogs came from strong genetic backgrounds simply because they had no titles on their dogs? So how can you justify calling others as BYB's if you yourself breed with dogs that have NO working titles? 

How can you be outrages over oops litters if you purposely breed dogs without working titles? A CGC is not a working title. A RN is not a working title. 

What makes these dogs different from others?

If I would breed Nala and Yukon, even though I know that they have a strong genetic background with top notch lines, with just a CGC and RN... there would be an outrage on this Forum because they are not titled (yet health certified).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> Not dirty, valid questions.
> 
> How do you differ the BYB from somebody without working titles? CGC and RN are not working titles. Even the Showline dogs in Germany have to be titled.
> 
> ...


First you have to get a CGC and an RN. Then you can talk about that if you want. Most of the dogs I have bred have CDs or at least RAs, but so what? That is not what this thread is about. My dogs are health screened. I title all my dogs, not just the ones I breed. Someone who cannot even get a CGC or RN, but can put the titles down, that is a bit much I think.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Emoore said:


> OK it's not 47 anymore, that was before Christmas.
> 
> You'll also see people posting, "Wanting to adopt a registered (whatever breed) puppy, 6-8 weeks old. I do not want to go to a breeder." Maybe it's just me but I see that a lot.


I've seen that... Never really connected that with a future litter or two or three but I can see that.

I've done some informal rescue and I know whenever I have a registered dog for placement for a rehoming fee people come out of the woodwork offering to take them and of course they will be more then happy to neuter or spay, no reason for me to.

Riiiiiggggghtt...


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Accidents happen even with the best intention. I know two people who had an "oops" litter. Fortunately, it was a match that was planned for the future, but happened 6 months to 1 year sooner than expected. One of these people is in The Netherlands where matches must be approved by the breed club. So the breed club had to come and visit the home and do an approval post-breeding instead of pre-breeding. The other was in Ohio, and the owner of the bitch didn't even realize her girl was in heat.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> That is not what this thread is about.


Wasn't my intention, either. 

I have respect for people who proudly say, "I am a breeder" and are eager to talk about their bloodlines and their program. This thread was about the folks who insist they're not breeders but seem to sell an accidental, AKC litter every year or two.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> First you have to get a CGC and an RN. Then you can talk about that if you want. Most of the dogs I have bred have CDs or at least RAs, but so what? That is not what this thread is about. My dogs are health screened. I title all my dogs, not just the ones I breed. But whatever. I do not have to justify something to someone who puts their dog down for dog-dog aggression. Someone who cannot even get a CGC or RN, but can put them down.



LOL.... nope, no CGC... even though she easily could get it, they are actually working dogs and one is ready to certify and will be certified as soon as I've got the Crew Boss. That is all I am waiting and working towards to. Without Crew Boss, no certifications and the Crew Boss has requirements and you need a certain amount of experience as a Grid Searcher for the Crew Boss, which doesn't happen over night.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Emoore said:


> This thread was about the folks who insist they're not breeders but seem to sell an accidental, AKC litter every year or two.


Well, those folks are not only breeders, but bad ones, and liars too.

But accidents do happen, even to responsible people. One of my dogs is an accident. Very nice pedigree on paper, just wasn't planned. It turned out to be serendipitous, in our case. Luka's my perfect companion, and her litter sister Lark is an incredibly accomplished bitch, as are many of her siblings and offspring. 

I agree that backyard breeders or irresponsible pet owners fail to make the right choices at every turn, and so by the time their dog has puppies, it's not one "accident" but a series of bad choices that led to a predictable situation.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Wasn't my intention, either.
> 
> I have respect for people who proudly say, "I am a breeder" and are eager to talk about their bloodlines and their program. This thread was about the folks who insist they're not breeders but seem to sell an accidental, AKC litter every year or two.


Mine either, however it does leave a bad aftertaste in my mouth if you talk about BYB's and oops litters and can't even answer a simple question what makes your own dogs so different and more breedworthy than others. Especially if they don't have any significant titles and honestly, a CGC, RN, RA or whatever else doesn't proof breedworthiness. NOT if a SchH1 doesn't proof that a dog is breedworthy. It only proofs that the handler has taken time to title the dog. But not that the dog is breedworthy.

And if you can't answer that question of what makes your dogs breedworthy... I'd be very careful labeling others as BYB's.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Just call me Switzerland.


If you guys want to fight, I will hold your money.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Nah... I'm out. I made my point.
.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> everyone isn't perfect or devious....*mistakes happen for real. Anyway, some of the on purpose breedings are worse for the breed, imo. *the dogs won't pass to their progeny your intentions or lack thereof, they will pass the genes the dog is made up of. Still, everyone should be vigilant about staying on top of their program.....*but the unforgiving attitude is very sanctimonious.*


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> OK it's not 47 anymore, that was before Christmas.


Well people will come to a rescue because they want cheap (and yes right before Christmas, too!)
It must be some cruel twist of fate that makes females go into heat at the perfect time to sell the "Christmas puppies" in time for that holiday


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## Ponypip123 (Apr 2, 2010)

Originally Posted by *cliffson1*  
_everyone isn't perfect or devious....*mistakes happen for real. Anyway, some of the on purpose breedings are worse for the breed, imo. *the dogs won't pass to their progeny your intentions or lack thereof, they will pass the genes the dog is made up of. Still, everyone should be vigilant about staying on top of their program.....*but the unforgiving attitude is very sanctimonious.*_


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> _everyone isn't perfect or devious....*mistakes happen for real. Anyway, some of the on purpose breedings are worse for the breed, imo. *the dogs won't pass to their progeny your intentions or lack thereof, they will pass the genes the dog is made up of. Still, everyone should be vigilant about staying on top of their program.....*but the unforgiving attitude is very sanctimonious.*_


What he said.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree with part of what Cliff said-who knows maybe even the planned litters don't better the breed-if oops litters really bother you don't look on craig list for your dogs and don't buy a pup from unplanned breedings-oh and Mrs. K I agreed with you but you didn't make your point by ridiculing what selzer does with her dogs-she is doing something with them if you don't feel its enough don't buy one of her puppies


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

ENOUGH. Anymore posts that attack another poster's ideas, dogs, breeding program, etc and we will start issuing real warnings. Attack ideas not people and, please, stop taking everything people post as personal. If they don't direct the comment to you then don't make assumptions. 

Sorry to the rest of the posters that the personal bickering was allowed to go on for so long. 


ADMIN Lisa


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Just call me Switzerland.
> 
> 
> If you guys want to fight, I will hold your money.


Thumbs up..


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

holland said:


> I agree with part of what Cliff said-who knows maybe even the planned litters don't better the breed-if oops litters really bother you don't look on craig list for your dogs and don't buy a pup from unplanned breedings-oh and Mrs. K I agreed with you but you didn't make your point by ridiculing what selzer does with her dogs-she is doing something with them if you don't feel its enough don't buy one of her puppies


It wasn't ridiculing. If I am a potential puppy buyer I would want that question to be answered from any breeder. So any breeder should be prepared to answer the question what makes the dogs breedworthy. And I never attacked her. I specifically said that* if somebody doesn't know what kind of experience she has*, what makes them think any different of her than of other BYB's? Because all she's got on her dogs is the CGC, RN, RA. So how does she determine which dog is breedworthy and which one isn't? However... if you can't answer that question than maybe you shouldn't be too quick to label others as BYB's and work on your own program first.

It's a simple question. If you are breeding and don't put working titles on them, heck even if you do put working titles on them, you've got to be ready to answer that question I don't think that's bashing or attacking because that is one of the first question I would ask a breeder when I'd inquire about one of their pups and one of the hardest questions to answer. 



> What differs them from you? You've got the CGC and the RN on most of your dogs. Does that make them breedworthy? How do you determine that your dogs are breedworthy and have what it takes to be bred? What makes them breedworthy? Have you ever seen them under real pressure?
> 
> *What makes anyone, that isn't familiar with your experience think the same way of you as of any other BYB?
> *
> ...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ya know, this is turning into "my dogs are better than your dogs", "I'm a better breeder than you are", "I've got this and you don't"..

STOP, Lisa is right. Who gives a rat's patootie? Wasn't this about "silent' heats?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I'm not a breeder. I'm *always a potential puppy *buyer and any breeder should be happy to answer that question. It gives them a reason to brag about their dogs.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I had a female that had obvious heats every six months, with the tall tale signs. During that time I would keep her in the house(when I was at work, etc) to avoid the males and in ten years she did not have one pup. 

One time, she was in heat and I failed to recognize the signs. Left her in the chain link kennel. A chow mix came to visit, somehow managed to break her out of the kennel(chewed holes in the chain link). My neighbor called to tell me she was out and they kept and eye on her-she went to my front door, accompanied by her suitor, and stayed there the remainder of the day. IF she accepted him, it didn't take, thank goodness!

The two dogs I have now are altered to prevent making puppies.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I'm not a breeder. I'm *always a potential puppy *buyer and any breeder should be happy to answer that question. It gives them a reason to brag about their dogs.


That's a good point. Some breeders title, some don't, and while we talk about BYBs not bothering to title, some may have a very good reason not to. For example, if their dogs are going straight into SAR, LE, service, or other real-world work, it doesn't make any sense to waste time training for SchH or AKC obedience or whatever.

Any breeder should be happy to tell anyone why they do things the way they do, and asking a GSD breeder "Why don't you title in SchH?" is a fair question deserving an honest answer. It would concern me if a breeder dodges the question.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Freestep said:


> That's a good point. Some breeders title, some don't, and while we talk about BYBs not bothering to title, some may have a very good reason not to. For example, if their dogs are going straight into SAR, LE, service, or other real-world work, it doesn't make any sense to waste time training for SchH or AKC obedience or whatever.
> 
> Any breeder should be happy to tell anyone why they do things the way they do, and asking a GSD breeder "Why don't you title in SchH?" is a fair question deserving an honest answer. It would concern me if a breeder dodges the question.



:thumbup:This makes a lot of sense. I also agree that accidents can happen even to the most careful of breeders and we should not judge. ( unless it becomes a pattern)

I plan on getting another GSD and will be getting a male because Benny is intact. I believe I have the diligence to keep a female and a male apart during heat, even though our dogs live in the house. I am just not sure family members do. I would not want to spay until at least age 2, if at all.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> For example, if their dogs are going straight into SAR, LE, service, or other real-world work, it doesn't make any sense to waste time training for SchH or AKC obedience or whatever.


Totally off topic but SchH dogs actually make great SAR dogs. I've seen it in Germany that SchH dogs have been faster titled and certified as area search dogs (and I'm not talking about the RH Sport Dogs) than green dogs. They already know how to work, they already have the obedience, directionals and generally bring everything it takes to be trained within half a year/year, whereas others, without having the foundation in the dog or as handler take two to three/four years to train their dogs. Not including about all the stuff you need to learn as the handler (Grid Searcher) yourself.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> They already know how to work, they already have the obedience, directionals and generally bring everything it takes to be trained within half a year/year, whereas others, without having the foundation in the dog or as handler take two to three/four years to train their dogs.


You may be right about that, actually--there's no reason a person *shouldn't* be able to both SchH and SAR, if they want to. If a service or assistance dog, maybe not so much. I've heard some LE people say that they prefer green dogs over SchH titled dogs, but I suppose that's a matter of preference from dept. to dept.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Freestep said:


> You may be right about that, actually--there's no reason a person *shouldn't* be able to both SchH and SAR, if they want to. If a service or assistance dog, maybe not so much. I've heard some LE people say that they prefer green dogs over SchH titled dogs, but I suppose that's a matter of preference from dept. to dept.


Time and Money. I am seriously considering doing SchH with Nala but I have Indra in SAR. The main SAR training happens on the weekend just like SchH. I tried to compromise with French Ring because the club is much closer but even that doesn't work. You can only commit to both if both of them is within one hour and you can work with the SchH people on SAR and with the SAR people on SchH. It works in Germany because you've got everything within your city limits (if you are lucky) but out here with multiples hour of driving you can't make it to both within one day. That is why I am definitely going to continue with the training at Debbie Zappias and see where it leads me. No SAR with Nala for now, just Obedience with Debbie and then there are certain things I can do myself. I can do the tracking, I can do the "Revier" even though I don't like working with Objects and not having blinds but nowadays it doesn't matter as much as in the past. So I can do some things by myself or with my teampartner (she titled a dog in SchH back in Germany) but the protection phase... well that I can't do myself 

LE is a different purpose. I can understand why they want green dogs. SchH and SAR is almost going hand in hand if done right.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...whatever


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ya know, this is turning into "my dogs are better than your dogs", "I'm a better breeder than you are", "I've got this and you don't"..
> 
> STOP, Lisa is right. Who gives a rat's patootie? Wasn't this about "silent' heats?


Actually, this is about accidental litters listed on Craigslist, so I am trying not to make it a thread about what I do or don't do with my dogs, and what makes one breeder a BYB and another not a BYB. This thread has nothing to do with that. It has more to do with whether people really cannot manage intact animals, or if they really want puppies, and find that it is more acceptable to say whoops, then to explain why they bred animals that are too young, not health screened, not titled (and yes, there are titles other than schutzhund), etc.

I am currently being crucified for my opinion that I would rather someone take responsibility for having bred a litter without all the ducks in a row, than for someone to say whoops, we got puppies coming. I would buy from the former, but never from the latter. 

I guess maybe I touched a nerve.


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## jcojocaru (Nov 8, 2010)

I have a potential accidental breed. I bought two puppies to match what I wanted to breed but did not do the research in time. I didn't know about "heat", therefore didn't know to look out for it. I kept my dogs together (now 1 year 2 months) to have company with each-other. Bailey is now pregnant and supposedly very close to birthing pups. Due to unforeseen circumstances, I am financially strapped and cannot afford too many vet visits, x-rays, ultrasound etc.

I chose my dogs by appearance, temperament, and health history of their parents/older generations, so either way I am highly confident that if the pups are indeed born, they will be healthy and just what I expected them to be. I will probably end up selling them however possible, carefully, to people who seem responsible for not too high of a price. 

What I want to say is, accidents are possible. Sure it was due to me not being better informed, but it was not intentional. You can't judge others according to your own personal standards. You have to understand just because you're educated doesn't mean you're always more correct than others. It is only natural for animals to mate regardless of age. It happens in nature, and it happens in your home. What I think is screwing up the breed is people trying to play God and create the dog they want.

After this litter, I am giving it up because I do not want to put my dog in such a situation and especially not myself. It is far more difficult and stressful than I thought it could be.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

jcojocaru said:


> You have to understand just because you're educated doesn't mean you're always more correct than others. It is only natural for animals to mate regardless of age. It happens in nature, and it happens in your home. What I think is screwing up the breed is people trying to play God and create the dog they want.
> 
> After this litter, I am giving it up because I do not want to put my dog in such a situation and especially not myself. It is far more difficult and stressful than I thought it could be.


I think it is very wise to give it up. I think your assessment of what is messing up the breed is, however, a bit off.

Putting together ANY purebred dogs is already, in a way, playing God - yes. There are known genetic diseases and temperament issues carried on recessive genes which are more likely to get together and express themselves because ANY breed has a limited gene pool. 

Knowledgable breeders know about certain dogs in the pedigree, maybe back even in the 80s or ealier who were wonderful dogs but carried health issues. Unless you know that you don't know about the possible problems that may be created when two great dogs are put together. I had one of those dogs....and I paid the price of the wrong breeding for 11 years. Even a good breeding is not a guarantee but at least there is due diligence.

Dogs in the wild may be more inherently robust due to genetic diversity and the fact that the weak don't have a chance and are culled by nature.

I do hope everything works out and the puppies are born healthy and mom is ok. I really would have her at a vet right now -- I know you don't have the money but you could lose her.


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## jcojocaru (Nov 8, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> I think it is very wise to give it up. I think your assessment of what is messing up the breed is, however, a bit off.
> 
> Putting together ANY purebred dogs is already, in a way, playing God - yes. There are known genetic diseases and temperament issues carried on recessive genes which are more likely to get together and express themselves because ANY breed has a limited gene pool.
> 
> ...



yeah I do understand all that, that's why i'm giving it up at least until I know all the details within breeding, and can afford it... This honestly was an accident due to my lack of knowledge. I accept that it is my fault. I wish I could have her at a vet... But i'm going to have to wait until either she gets worse (she hasn't gotten any worse these last 3 days), or something fortunate comes my way so I can afford it. I was set financially, but got hit by the worst string of luck in my life. i don't want to lose Bailey but if I end up in debt I will lose everything including both Bailey and Max.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

jcojocaru said:


> yeah I do understand all that, that's why i'm giving it up at least until I know all the details within breeding, and can afford it... This honestly was an accident due to my lack of knowledge. I accept that it is my fault. I wish I could have her at a vet... But i'm going to have to wait until either she gets worse (she hasn't gotten any worse these last 3 days), or something fortunate comes my way so I can afford it. I was set financially, but got hit by the worst string of luck in my life. i don't want to lose Bailey but if I end up in debt I will lose everything including both Bailey and Max.


Don't beat yourself up to bad. We all make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them.

My dad was a beagle breeder when I was growing up. He lived it 24/7 (actually I think we all did). He doesn't do it anymore, but he told me that he very seldom would break even doing it. Sure, he would talk about how he would make some good money on a couple of good litters, then all of a sudden, something would go wrong that would drain money....or he would lose his bitch or a whole litter of pups. I never will forgot one morning we went out to feed the dogs.......and a rattlesnake had crawed up the ramp of the kennel and ate all the newborn puppies. The snake was so fat with puppies, it couldn't get out of the heat box. The poor mamma was outside the kennel running just barking and whining. My dad had to rush her to the vet b/c she had gotten bitten a few times. 

I think you almost have to have nerves of steel to be a good breeder. I would imagine you have to be prepared for anything. 

I still think the best option for you is to get in touch with some sort of rescue person to help you.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nobody I think is being beat up on this issue for their opinion on accidental litters, different people look at it from different perspectives and that's fine. Its the then projection that its only for money, it was really on purpose, you shouldn't have intact dogs if you can't prevent this, the refusal to acknowledge that accidents occur. These attitudes are sometimes based on no knowledge, actually wrong, can be mean spirited, and are only "projections" of YOUR feelings on this subject. Has nothing to do with being from the country or the city. How many times have we seen somebody jump on a post with a chastisement, and then when the facts come all the way out its more to it then the assumed chastisement addresses. Then more rational people come on, to bring it back to center....and the same people do it over and over again. Kinda makes you say....hmmmmm. We all make mistakes, but most people let their mistakes form their learning curve.....and others????? I mean what's the difference in the novice that hasn't learned and is over their head, and the person who refused to learn from their mistakes, or the people who when shown factually that their opinion is faulty, refuses to budge. Do any of these scenarios benefit the breed??? Can you justify any of these things because we have "passion" for the breed. 
I just think we can be helpful, as opposed to judgmental, more factual as opposed to opinionated. I don't think that's polictically correct, I think its decent.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Lakota came from an accidental on purpose litter. The old "we love our dogs and just wanted to have a litter". All the pups were given away free to friends/family. The woman came to my house to interview & screen me even after her husbands friend (who took a pup) and her brother in law recommended me. They took back a pup from a family member and kept one themselves.
I don't think they would ever do it again and they got all thier dogs spay/nuetered.
She keeps in touch, and just sent a text message to wish Lakota a happy birthday today.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I believe I have gotten just as many "OMG your shepherd is so beautiful" looks as I have the "why didn't you adopt/rescue a dog" looks.

I do think that in today's world it is much more preferred to go to a rescue and pull a dog or go to that family that accidentally bred their dogs and get one from them. It's kind of like "rescueing" them from their situation. Then you get stuck with a poorly bred dog for 10+ years trying to manage all of its issues. People hear "I paid $1000+ for my dog" and equate it to 5-6 adoption fees.

My next dog, will be a female as I have an intact male. He doesn't leave the apartment without a leash on. I have been around a female that had just gotten over her heat, and this was a different dog. There was no holding him back once he realized what was going on. (I blame the bitch owner for brining her to the dog park so soon after her heat). I put him on a leash and nothing happened, but it was a pain to keep him on a leash.

To the guy that just had the "accident." I'm not going to change your opinion on nature, but just a heads up, in nature wolves don't breed young. In fact only 1 wolf and 1 wolf bitch breed in every pack. The alphas. Dogs are not wolves. They are put together in homes by humans so no matter what "you are playing God." And if you are to play God, wouldn't you prefer to put together two excellent specimens, rather than two dogs off the street?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

martemchik said:


> I believe I have gotten just as many "OMG your shepherd is so beautiful" looks as I have the "why didn't you adopt/rescue a dog" looks.
> 
> I do think that in today's world it is much more preferred to go to a rescue and pull a dog or go to that family that accidentally bred their dogs and get one from them. It's kind of like "rescueing" them from their situation. Then you get stuck with a poorly bred dog for 10+ years trying to manage all of its issues. People hear "I paid $1000+ for my dog" and equate it to 5-6 adoption fees.
> 
> ...


I learned not to listen to these bleeding hearts anymore. There are a lot of bleeding hearts in the rescue world. I've been called a dog killer by these people because all my dogs came from a breeder. Because of people like me there are so many dogs killed each and every day. 
Those with common sense actually will agree with you. I don't have the time to go from Shelter to Shelter to look for that one dog that might be able to do the Job. I rather go straight to the source. 
I've had six fosters since I moved here and none of these dogs had what it takes. I thought about keeping one because he had an extreme food and prey drive but he simply lacked the hunt drive. 
I talked to mom about it, that I wanted another dog to work with and she said to wait till next year and then they came across Nala and thats how I got her. 

Again, the bleeding hearts disagreed. I don't care. It's my life, my money, my dogs. If it was up to them I'd have a house full of 15 year old Senior dogs. 

It's one reason I quit fostering. First, fostering took the time away from working my own dogs. Secondly, there were just too many issues with the rescue itself, third... the bleeding hearts just don't make it fun...


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## jcojocaru (Nov 8, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I believe I have gotten just as many "OMG your shepherd is so beautiful" looks as I have the "why didn't you adopt/rescue a dog" looks.
> 
> I do think that in today's world it is much more preferred to go to a rescue and pull a dog or go to that family that accidentally bred their dogs and get one from them. It's kind of like "rescueing" them from their situation. Then you get stuck with a poorly bred dog for 10+ years trying to manage all of its issues. People hear "I paid $1000+ for my dog" and equate it to 5-6 adoption fees.
> 
> ...


Well yes, and fortunately my dogs weren't "off the street", I chose them very carefully. I searched for a long time to get what I wanted so I guess in that sense I did nothing wrong. My mistake was in not having the knowledge to do what was right.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Have you posted pedigrees of the dogs? Do you plan on titling/working them? I'm not judging, I think its fine that you wanted/want to be a breeder, you just had some misconseptions on what it takes and what you should be doing. Maybe now you have learned what its going to take, and when you have the ability to do that you can start.

Mrs. K, I also don't care that they say that, but they do. It's sad that someone has to defend their purchase of a dog. I do a lot of things that the "regular" pet owner does, but I also do akc shows and trials. They don't understand that it takes a special dog to do those kinds of things, much less understand that it takes a VERY special dog to do the things that you do with your dogs. Their dogs are a pet, my dog was going to be my pet, but has become my hobby.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

paulag1955 said:


> Um...Shasta went through two heat cycles and I have NO idea when she was in standing heat. Her behavior never changed from normal through the whole heat.


She's your only dog, right? 

If you have males and another bitch in the house, you notice the change. 

The males start going nuts for the female and you have to make sure that they are separated at all times. Some males are more determined than others. I'm lucky that all Yukon does is whining, moaning and more whining. He's literally hyper-sensitive and super-focused on every move Nala does and the whining is truly pathetic. It goes on almost 15 hours a day. Right now, I got him down to half a day. It's on and off. 

Also, she changed her behavior towards Indra. She's became more possessive, there is a little more aggression involved which is why I separated them as well. Meaning, Yukon and Indra are together and Nala is in the crate. Then I rotate and have her out while the other two are in the Crate. 

Also, for Yukon it's a perfect opportunity to work him through her heat and for him to ignore a female in heat. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't stud her once he's got the opportunity, it simply means that he stays focuse and concentrated with me, ignoring her while I work him. I put the platform right in front of her crate and he's been working nicely.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> She's your only dog, right?
> 
> If you have males and another bitch in the house, you notice the change.
> 
> ...


Is Judge allowed out with Nala or is he separated too?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> Is Judge allowed out with Nala or is he separated too?


Would you let a 15 month old intact male together with a female in heat?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Would you let a 15 month old intact male together with a female in heat?


Sorry I meant is he allowed to be with Yukon and Indra or does he have to be separate? Does he get along with Yukon?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> Sorry I meant is he allowed to be with Yukon and Indra or does he have to be separate? Does he get along with Yukon?


He was only allowed to be with Yukon as long as I was there. When I left the house I had to separate them. Either I crated him or I split the house in two halfs and Yukon had one, Judge had the other.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> He was only allowed to be with Yukon as long as I was there. When I left the house I had to separate them. Either I crated him or I split the house in two halfs and Yukon had one, Judge had the other.


You are writing in past tense, do you still have Judge?

Curious question, how old are all your dogs?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Indra turns two, Nala turns two in June, Yukon turns eight in November.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Hu? What happened to judge?


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

OK, I had an OOPS litter, 35 years ago I had 2 Belgian Tervs, male was pointed and had CDX, female group placing CH CDX, pedigrees were good, she was co-owned with her breeder, her breeder tried to breed her twice, had to do AI as she wouldn't stand, no pups, extensive testing and a determination of sterile bitch.....I was less vigilent, and for those that think it takes time..NO WAY...passing her coming out of the kennel, him going in, he jumped her and they were locked!!! 7 healthy pups...My only OOPS, and I have had intacts but prefer spaying the females, I hate the worry and stress..

Gemma at 2 has heats every 16-18 weeks, she si intact until the breeder has her litter, i will be spaying her then, but I am extremely careful as her and Ty are full siblings!!! It won't be happening!!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> He was only allowed to be with Yukon as long as I was there. When I left the house I had to separate them. Either I crated him or I split the house in two halfs and Yukon had one, Judge had the other.


You are talking of Judge in the past tense and you haven't said anything about him on the board lately. Did you find a home for him in a warmer climate? Or did you release him to the rescue that offered to take him?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

If I want to talk about him, I will talk about him. Not everything is this Forums business. There is such a thing as a private life.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> If I want to talk about him, I will talk about him. Not everything is this Forums business. There is such a thing as a private life.


Gotcha...

There wasn't any need to be nasty. It was just a question given your other posts about Judge in which you discussed rehoming him somewhere warm, a rescue offering to take him or euthanizing him. If you don't want ppl asking questions then maybe you should keep more things private instead of blasting your life all over the board.:shrug:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Gotcha...
> 
> There wasn't any need to be nasty. It was just a question given your other posts about Judge in which you discussed rehoming him somewhere warm, a rescue offering to take him or euthanizing him. If you don't want ppl asking questions then maybe you should keep more things private instead of blasting your life all over the board.:shrug:


It wasn't nasty. Merely stated my wish not to talk about it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> If I want to talk about him, I will talk about him. Not everything is this Forums business. There is such a thing as a private life.


That is true, but when you draw people in talking about his deformity, ask about things like the possibility of raising money for him, etc., people develop a sense of concern for the dog and want to know. They want to know why you are getting new dogs when an existing dog has an unresolved problem. because it is not a mindset most folks here seem to have. You kind of make it their business when you talk about your dogs.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> That is true, but when you draw people in talking about his deformity, ask about things like the possibility of raising money for him, etc., people develop a sense of concern for the dog and want to know. They want to know why you are getting new dogs when an existing dog has an unresolved problem. because it is not a mindset most folks here seem to have. You kind of make it their business when you talk about your dogs.


I guess they just need to live with the fact that it is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS, whether they like it or not. Nobody can make me share something if I don't want to. Whether they agree or not, there is no need to know and with that, I would really appreciate if that wish was honored. Once* I AM READY* I'll talk! Period!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

When you post about him, asking people for advice on what to do about him and then suddenly he's 'gone' - what do you expect people to do??


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

How about moving on? He's not your dog. So no need to worry about him. Worry about your own dogs, not mine. If I want to talk about it, I'll talk about it. I have not posted about any of his issues for a while and I said before in another topic that I will not ever share any of my dogs health issues on this forum ever again. So move on. There is nothing more to be said.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> That is true, but when you draw people in talking about his deformity, ask about things like the possibility of raising money for him, etc., people develop a sense of concern for the dog and want to know.


Wait... she was not trying to raise money from here, right?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*This thread has become entirely too personal. Get back on topic or the thread will be locked. *

ADMIN Lisa

**********


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

** post removed by Admin**


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