# 3 way composite?



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Der deutsche Schäferhund in Wort und Bild : Stephanitz, Max von, 1863- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I can't even begin to actually read this book but from what little I am able to gather v stephanitz seems to be suggesting breeders alternate between thuringian, wurttemberger and swabian? The first few decades of the va1 list seem to support that as well? 

"On 22 April 1899, Stephanitz founded the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (S.V.) with his friend Artur Meyer. *Three sheep masters*, two factory owners, one architect, one mayor, one innkeeper, and one magistrate joined them as co-founders."

This is really interesting because 3 way composite is a very old method used to maintain vigor in sheep...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Each of those three types brought in certain traits that von Stephanitz used to develop a type he wanted. One type brought in prick ears and were true herding stock, one brought in size, etc. Stephanitz was not a very successful breeder and some of his beliefs were not scientifically valid and were actually racist. I also think he was a hypocrite or self promoting with all his talk about keeping the breed a working breed and then using foundation dogs with weak temperaments to get a certain physical type. It got so bad in the early years that there is a story that von Stephanitz realized working ability had been sacrificed for looks and at a seiger show, he came out where the dogs were gathered and started firing his pistol and ran off most of the dogs.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Several aspects of the book are troubling. Despite the fact that I don’t readily read german I can see it was written to promote/market the breed in a pre-mass media era. No mention of dobe seems a little suspicious? Kind of makes me wonder how much role gsd played there?








I can easily imagine little jagdt sire x gsd dam may = protodobe? Of course that’s a gross oversimplification, but plausible nonetheless. I wonder how much common mtdna ancestry gsd and dobe share? Thumbing through the book a few old gsd heads resemble modern eurodobe to my eye. Anyway given the timelines I find it difficult to imagine stephanitz wasn’t aware dobe existed, so why no mention? Perhaps he didn’t want to promote the competition?








Speaking of competition, pg 127 “Abb. 108. rough haired shepherd wurttemburg” is even more problematic. Germany’s working AT cult was well established before stephanitz even put pen to paper. I’ve long suspected that’s where where gsd inherited the black and tan/black and red?
Anyhow, cool to see the old snapshots of giant schnauzer, beauceron, briard, bouvier, rott, etc.

Getting back to 3 way composite, it really does appear they were doing like swabian x wurttemberger/thruingian and wurtemberger x thuringian/swabian (etc) for the first few decades at least.
I reckon in the beginning there were three wool barons. One in swabia, one in thuringia, and one in wurttemberg. In order to maintain their status they had to occasionally trade genetics, or their flocks would wane. Each outfit had a locally adapted strain of sheepdog. The shepherds who did all the gruntwork couldn’t read or write, but I assure you they knew enough to trade pups back and forth amongst themselves when delivering/recieving the boss’s fresh wool genetics.
I only personally “discovered” this last night, but I’ve already contemplated it enough to boldly proclaim_ with utmost certainty _“*three sheepmasters*” is “_the secret code_” for “_the secret formula_” handed down from the founders. There is absolutely no doubt about it in my mind.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

Ok, see Bloodlines and Pedigrees for the long stuff. Just some notes here. 

Anton Eiselen of v d Krone was the Swabian Southern Germany Herding 'Old Blood' guy. Swabia was the ancient name of the area of Southern Germany stretching from the Jura Mountains to the norther Alps and back. Swabia was renamed Wurttemburg in 1806 when the counts of Wurttemburg ascended to the status of princes. So you'll find Wurttemburg and Swabia used interchangeably. The Swabian is called 'Old Blood' or sometimes 'Old Breed' because written records of them go back 800 years and the old Master Herders say the verbal record goes back more than a thousand years. Some genetic studies indicate that Swabian dogs are foundation genes for European herding dogs rather like Arabian horses are for saddle horses. Some beeds derived from their foundation Swiss and Benese Mountain Dogs, Saint Bernards, Belgian Shepherds, Kuvasz, Greek Tatra, Italian Maremma, and the Pyrenees Herding dogs to list a few 

Sparwasser was Stephanitz' favorite Thüringen kennel though v Hanau was already very successful producing prick-eared herding dogs with their Pollux x Prima cross when Stephanitz entered the picture. Their success pretty much got his goat, just as Horst v Boll did later with his success in producing police, herding and 'ambulance' dogs--and so becoming the most popular sire, eclipsing even Pollux in the first twenty years of the breed. 

Stephanitz side-lined both the Saxony and Northern 'land race' dogs pretty early, sticking with the Swabian x Thuringian cross v Hanau used, which, probably because he insisted on inbreeding on Horand, which Eiselen told him not to, produced dogs of very shy temperament with little or no herding drive, but very, very pretty. Especially very pretty heads and faces and 'prick' ears. Looking at West German working line breeding and Czech breeding would indicate that Saxony and Northern 'land race' genetics tend to be anchors for 'nerve'. After Stephanitz died in 1933 Hitler took over as Breed Warden and added Saxony Cherusker v burg Fasenental and Nestor Wiegerfelsen and in so doing, in essence founded the west German working line. 

Prick ears came predominantly from the Thuringen

Swabian bring herding, genetic pre-disposition to work partners with people towards a shared goal, versatility, balance, moderation, sociability, high bite threshold, large size, heavy coats (remember, they're mountain dogs) a lot of lighter colors, sable, mostly, superb herding dogs, great search and rescue, this is where both community police and guide dogs come from

Saxony and Brunswick (central Germany) intensity, nerve, herding, middling bite threshold, wiry, heavy coats, favored colors, brindle, merle, liver, greys, some sables-- these genes used in Belgian and Dutch Shepherds and the old Queensland Blue (and Red) Heelers. 

Thuringian (eastern Germany) intensity, high aggression, hardness, low bite threshold, zero herding, dominant terrier like dogs, extreme prey drive. Small, dark colored, black and black and tan come from them. Very stiff prick ears They were stable dogs, so did not need the heavy coat of the herding dogs 

Northern 'land race' dogs. These dogs came from different regions in the north of Germany and varied from something almost a wolf through hunting dogs to excellent herding dogs like Greif. Tended to be large, often used to pull small carts, there are pictures of them being used in wartime to pull the wounded on wheeled, and sometimes even sled-type litters, otherwise, what you see is what you get. Generally good nerve. Sort of use at your own risk. 

Pylax v Eulau, the dog that started it all, was a Northern 'land race' dog who looked very like a wolf and was very large. The herding people said he looked more like he'd eat their sheep than herd them. 

Horand v Grafath, SV 1 was a mix of all four, 25% each. 

The trick, in German Shepherd breeding, is to decide where you want to go with the breed. If you want herding plus versatility, you just about have to base in Swabian. If you want Bite work, you need a base in Saxony and Thüringen. Czech added Northern 'land race' dogs and the Pohrinici Strasse even added wolf, because their dogs got too in-bred and they had difficulties with Juvenile Renal Dysplasia (killed whole litters). If you want guide dogs or other service dogs, you base in Swabian but add Saxony to keep the size down a little, not to mention reinforce nerve. 

Sounds simple, doesn't it? It isn't. German Shepherd dogs have to be one of the most complex breeds out there to breed. If you don't learn about the originating genes you're going to find yourself doing a lot of trial and error--well, you will anyway, because you will have to find which families of dogs will provide you with the heredity you want in some kind of consistent (prepotency) manner. 

Good luck.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

kayhawk said:


> Ok, see Bloodlines and Pedigrees for the long stuff. Just some notes here.
> 
> Anton Eiselen of v d Krone was the Swabian Southern Germany Herding 'Old Blood' guy. Swabia was the ancient name of the area of Southern Germany stretching from the Jura Mountains to the norther Alps and back. Swabia was renamed Wurttemburg in 1806 when the counts of Wurttemburg ascended to the status of princes. So you'll find Wurttemburg and Swabia used interchangeably. The Swabian is called 'Old Blood' or sometimes 'Old Breed' because written records of them go back 800 years and the old Master Herders say the verbal record goes back more than a thousand years. Some genetic studies indicate that Swabian dogs are foundation genes for European herding dogs rather like Arabian horses are for saddle horses. Some beeds derived from their foundation Swiss and Benese Mountain Dogs, Saint Bernards, Belgian Shepherds, Kuvasz, Greek Tatra, Italian Maremma, and the Pyrenees Herding dogs to list a few
> 
> ...


I just want to thank your for sharing your background knowledge! I also, would like to ask, how you feel about outcrossing occasionally? 

I had very good luck with this, back many years, and wonder seriously if AKC would allow for that on some level, if it wouldn't/ couldn't inject enough genetic diversity to carry the breed forward many years...


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

It may come to that. Dutch Shepherds, for instance, well, and Malinois, too, come from much the same base of four genetic sources, with maybe a few more genetic add-ins, but they would both bring back more of the Saxony 'Old Blood' that Stephanitz side-lined back in the beginning. Lines that would provide new 'blood' without really diverging much of any from the original mix of genetic types. (Tervuren too.) If you stick with dogs heavy with herding heredity, that should act to help preserve good German Shepherd character--if carefully done, with attention to giving real priority to herding character, that old misnomer 'genetic obedience' and nerve, Nerve, NERVE. 

But--how about using some of the in breed 'lines' first? Bring the colors back that were once integral to the breed. Open the colors back up to the original variety. Did you know that Horand v Grafath was the dreaded 'blue'? In those day they called them grey and tans, but 'a rose by any other name'. How about reintegrating some of the old white lines that date to eras before Hitler took over the breed? Take a good hard look at any of the old herding 'land race' dogs you can find. What about the old German Alt Deutsch (sp?) dogs some of the Germans are trying to bring back? 

Now, true, the addition of the old Northern 'land race' dogs to the Czech zPS dogs give them a somewhat different character, but I think that may be because they used 'wolf' type dogs as well as herding dogs because health concerns, along with working concerns, were so paramount for them. Mostly, today, people just give lip service to health but don't really prioritize it at all. Just wait until like Stephanitz and the zPS, people start losing whole litters, or have bitches who lose their litters before they're even born due to JRD. They'll start to learn to pay more than mere lip service to health. 

There's a term called Associative breeding, where you try to match up individuals with your dogs who are not related, but who contain the qualities you most want to retain/reinforce in your dogs, and don't (as much as possible) add any characteristics you don't want. But you don't look just at the individual you're thinking about. You look at all his siblings, his (or her) parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, great aunts and great uncles, and cousins and you get as much info on as many generations as you can find. You have to be rigorous, disciplined and knowledgeable to be able to do this effectively. You have to have some kind of understanding about what you want and what the dogs really are. The best way to do this, of course, is to get your hands on as many dogs of the lines you're considering as you can and work them at what you do. 

I'm not going to tell you that Associative breeding is easy. It is a hundred times tougher than in or line breeding. But you're going to have to do the same thing to outbreed effectively, because at its heart, out-breeding IS Associative breeding. It is, however the best way to promote and maintain genetic health in the breed while still retaining the breed's unique character. Well, I think, anyway. Because if we keep going on the way we are, pretending that each 'line' breeding we're doing exists in some kind of vacuum, as if no inbreeding (well, backmassing, really) has preceded it, while we lurch from one bottleneck to another, it's going to catch up with us, big time, sooner or later. Just take a look at British German Shepherds, some time. Visit a few of their websites. Dogs that can't stand up. EPI, JRD and Epilepsy running rampant, oh, I can't go on.

The plain fact of the matter is that Horand carried some bad stuff. So did Tell v d Kriminal Poleizei--I can't prove it, because when Tell was alive, nobody knew what vWildebrand's was, but I do believe that he's the source for that. All we have is anecdotal evidence for this stuff, but when Horand was in-bred upon, we got Epi from his progeny, and Stephanitz saw all the markers for JRD--which didn't have a name then, either--as well as the symptoms for what we would now call Mega E. The result is that when we in-breed on these dogs, we're distilling these genes so that they will appear more often and in deadly combinations. And if the dogs are symptomatic when we breed them, that means that their epi-genes are compromised and compromised epi-genes are heritable. 

The In-breeding comes in layers. Roland v Starkenburg was in-bred upon Horand and Pollux. Hettel Uckermark was in-bred upon Beowulf Sonnenberg, and thus Horand. His son Alex was in-bred upon Hettel and his full brother Guntar Uckermark, and thus Roland, Beowulf and Horand. And Erich v Grafenwerth was in-bred upon Hettel again, with Klodo v Boxerg adding Tell v d Kriminal Poleizei through his dam, Elfi v Boxberg, as well as 70 more lines to Horand and Pollux and guess who they went through? From Klodo we get Utz v Haus Schutting, Curt v Herzog Hedan, Odin v Stolzenfels and so on, up to Lex v Preussenblut, the sire of the R litter OsnabruckerLand, who died of the same unexplainable and unreversable bleed out that killed Tell before him and Canto v d Wienerau after him. Lex, who carried 78 lines to Tell and 246 lines to Klodo v Boxberg. Lance of Fran Jo was line-bred 3 times on Lex's daughter Rosel--who provided the dam line for both American and German Show lines, as well as West German Working lines. She also featured in the breeding of Held v Ritterburg, who carried literally 60 lines to Lex and Maja, the mother of the R litter OsnabruckerLand. Held was said to be a very balanced dog, and he was--with 31 more lines to Cherusker v burg Fasenental and 31 lines to Nestor Wiegerfelsen. And you know what the most favored breeding strategy for Held was? Breeding him to his full brother, Golf's daughters. 

The choke points in the West German working lines aren't as bad as those in the High Lines. Troll and Fero and Tom aren't nearly as bad. Yet. Don't hold your breath. And don't get me started on the in-breeding on Canto v d Wienerau--a sickly dog who died of vWildebrands (hemophilia), had a poor temperament and bad hips. It's unspeakable. A couple of years back I worked a pedigree that carried every single sire line and every single dam line back through Canto. Because they wanted to breed her and wanted to know what was there. Want to guess what the odds were that she'd bleed out during whelping? No, I didn't want to calculate them, either. 

So, when you look at that 5-5 dog, think about the 800 lines each of those 5-5 dogs carry to Roland--and maybe think again???

Just some thoughts. K


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I just want to make sure everybody understands, Kayhawk is *my* girlfriend now. You know, I was just buzzing along, unsuspectingly, like any other day... until suddenly _thwap! _I find myself completely entangled in the captivating web she wove for me. Never even saw it coming...
Please continue, your Ladyship...


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

Thank you!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@kayhawk I'm totally enjoying this! Please keep talking, I'm begging.
Several years back I was looking for a puppy and was so disheartened when breeder after breeder told me to go get a Lab, because I couldn't handle a REAL GSD! All I said I wanted was a healthy, stable, active companion that could accompany me camping, canoeing and hiking. I wanted a dog that could be trained in tracking and/or detection and one that was good with other animals and children as my intention was an off grid home in Northern Ontario. I have no children but kid friendly is non negotiable with me. Health clearances are also non negotiable.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

Sabis Mom--both Working line and showline breeders today pretty much ignore the ACTUAL breed standard. Two core statements in the breed standard are, quote "The German Shepherd dog WELCOMES the friendly advances of strangers, without making them himself." And, The German Shepherd dog . . . is fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog or guardian. . . . " These are core values of the breed which go back to the beginning, to the first written breed standards.

This is why I find 'titles' difficult. The exigencies of competition push extremes, both of temperament and of structure on the breed and its breeders in order to find success. To get those extremes, breeders are almost forced to use inbreeding, et voila! 

With the so-called 'reputable' breeders the breeders who win, at whichever venue they have chosen, all of us who would like a reasonable, balanced, decently moderate dog find getting one increasingly difficult. I grew up with a pair of retired military dogs, Rudy and Trooper and neither one could have touched the extremes so prevalent in working line dogs today. Rudy, in particular had a long, rather illustrious military career, and while he wasn't overly fond of many adults, he adored us kids. 

In my experience, extremes do not serve work well. They do, however, serve competition goals very well. Competition leads people to put both money and ego on the line. When that happens, balance tends to go out the window along with common sense. 

Try measuring some of those extreme 'titled' dogs again the breed standard. Can they 'welcome' friendly overtures from strangers? Could they lead a blind person safely? Could any of those 'prey monkeys' safely herd livestock? Let those answers, if you can find honest ones, be your guide. 

Here's hoping you're doing well. K

PS What about Sue Selzer's dogs? I've always been impressed with Sue's kindness, commonsense and practical knowledge. K


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

kayhawk said:


> Thank you!


You're far too kind. The pleasure is all mine.








I say again, I don’t claim to have any real bsd/dsd/gsd expertise, but I am quite familiar with some distantly related genetics. I am by nature leery of modern “mock up” fotos of shepherds in traditional garb, but I was hoping for any thoughts you might care to share about the type illustrated below.









"shepherd with his herd on the swabian alp west"


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

Remember what I said about concepts of 'pure' in relation to 'land race' dogs? Traces of the wavy coat still remain in modern German Shepherd dogs. Brutus, our first search and rescue dog, had a 'wave' in his coat that made him look grizzled. Then think, too, of how different that dog might look if he had been bathed and brushed up all nice. This dog's coat has seen little care. He may never have seen a bath in his life and a brush maybe only on Sundays, if then. 

Too, early --pre-German Shepherd Swabian dogs were noted for having ears that didn't always stand up nicely. Many of them tipped over at the ends. That's why the push to add all the Thüringen blood--made the ears smaller and stand up much more stiffly. The large head the Czech dog people love comes from the Swabian, and their heads were heavier with stronger muzzles (greater bite strength). I wish I wasn't such a Luddite and could post pictures for you without spending umpteen hours and untold frustration trying to get it done. I'd send you a pix of Strongheart and you'd see what I mean. But I have no clue how to put a picture on this site. I barely managed to get back on it, and it took me weeks to do. 

It is an interesting fact that, in the beginning of the breed, many, many types of herding and yard dog were included through small numbers of individuals. They didn't make it into the 'main' line and as the main line dogs were in-bred, their genetics were pretty much excluded, but some vestiges of them remain. Even on this forum, we get people talking about strange markings in their dogs--white chests and toes on predominantly black dogs--that came from the Brandenburg dogs included in the early days of the breed. Those markings were highly prized in their region and somehow, due to the mysteries of DNA they still appear every now and then. K


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Have you ever heard tell/seen double dewclaws on a gsd? Not deformities, but actual functional double dewclaws.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

Easy. Yes. But they're not common and most folks don't like them so take them off. Doesn't mean they're not lurking somewhere in the genetic soup. K


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Have you ever heard tell/seen double dewclaws on a gsd? Not deformities, but actual functional double dewclaws.


The double dewclaws appear commonly in some of the older LG dogs, one would be safe to assume that the foundations share some common ancestry.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

kayhawk said:


> I wish I wasn't such a Luddite and could post pictures for you without spending umpteen hours and untold frustration trying to get it done. I'd send you a pix of Strongheart and you'd see what I mean.


This dog?


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

No, actually the Strongheart I was speaking of just died a few years back and belonged to a friend of mine who is near ninety, now. But--those are GREAT early pix. I love the athleticism and balance there. Nothing overdone like so many of todays dogs, with their overlong upper and lower thighs and weak, long backs. (All to service the artificial 'side-gait' so desired today.) Too many working-line breeders are aping the show dogs in their conformation breeding with the idea that somehow they're breeding for 'good' conformation. IF I were to advise them, I would beg them to breed for the work, to shorten the upper and lower thighs on their dogs to increase strength and athleticism and shorten the back and loin, too, to avoid back injuries and give the dog more power in the 'fight'. 

I'm going to reiterate the advice of Fortunate Fields, because I think its so important. You must first understand the work in order to breed (and train) effectively for it. Where the showlines have gone wrong is that they have no work ethos. 

Look at the dogs in those photos. Those lovely, moderate upper and lower thighs can launch those dogs as the weak, long, shaky upper and lower thighs with their over-strained, fragile stifle joints never can. 

A dog operating on a weak, shaky platform of a body can never move with the kind of dominating confidence it takes to either control a man or a group of livestock. The mind and body work together. If you've ever read the thread 'The Fat Lady Sings' there's a lot of talk about the lack of solid nerve in the black/red dogs. But the dogs in the videos had such weak, shaky structures (they wobbled! when they tried to move!) They couldn't possibly have any confidence in what they were trying to do because their bodies were incapable of doing it! 

The dogs in those pix you posted are not weak and shaky. Get back to conformation like that, and you will get a lot more dogs with decent nerve. K


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> I just want to thank your for sharing your background knowledge! I also, would like to ask, how you feel about outcrossing occasionally?
> 
> I had very good luck with this, back many years, and wonder seriously if AKC would allow for that on some level, if it wouldn't/ couldn't inject enough genetic diversity to carry the breed forward many years...


I've been wishing we could allow very structured outcrossing in some breeds. However, with the genetic diversity across lines and countries in GSDs. I don't know how large of a concern it should be. Rather if we could just begin crossing lines we could potentially get some genetic diversity that way. It depends on how homozoygous the various lines are across traits particularly those we need to get some heterozygosity in. The benefit of crossing lines over outcrossing to other breeds is we don't have 3+ generations of mixed breed crosses. While we may have culls in the mixed line litters they would at least still be registered GSDs and could be easily soft culled.

I really need to start bookmarking studies. Looking into outcrossing because of the current breeding practices and current lack of genetic diversity in breeds it does not lower the COI for very long. Doing it every several generations is apparently more effective than doing several outcrosses as once. However, this really depends on the breeding practices of whoever is doing the breeding. There is also the worry of introducing new disorders and issues into the breed via outcrosses. Somebody mentioned tervs, in the US that would be a bad idea as tervs currently need outcrossed in order to increase genetic diversity due to several nasty health issues they're struggling with.

The biggest thing though is we need to focus on keeping genetic diversity, otherwise introducing it does no good. This means people would need to change how they breed. So that means things like reducing linebreeding and potentially limiting the number of times a stud could be bred. Popular sire syndrome again and again is a downfall of many species and breeds. But people keep doing it because it works great until it doesn't. 

Also the more I research the more I agree with Kayhawk and the overemphasis on titles. If you have 10 dogs in say a conformation show and all meet the breed standard it isn't necessarily #1 that should be bred to. Why? Because they all meet the standard, the judge just decided he liked #1 best. In sports it could be extensive training over true ability in the dog and some titles are just worthless. I don't care if a dog wins a conformation title to be honest. In border collies dogs who win show titles are stripped of their ABCA registration because they recognize prioritizing looks leads to a downfall in many breeds and so too does some titles. It's seen in GSDs and the over the top prey drive and in AKC herding trial dogs that are well trained but don't produce herders because it's all training and no instinct. We need to emphasize the natural aptitude of the dog not the training put into it.

I'm on a dog breeding simulator game. All dogs are born with an "aptitude" for certain dog sports. You have to train each dog, if a dog has a natural aptitude it starts its training at 90% vs. 50% for a dog that doesn't have a natural aptitude. You can still win titles with a dog without but it highlights that natural talent for something, and that talent not the training is what you're going to ideally produce from any litters. So if you breed dogs with good training but no talent expect puppies with no talent.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

This is one of the best post I have seen on a forum. I hope people with knowledge will continue to contribute. What you know is not what you are told, but what you learn.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

One of the reasons I think AI should be really heavily regulated. A studs normal life span has the potential to produce a crapload of puppies as it is. AI allows that to be doubled or more. Not to mention the extra in his lifetime. If a dog cannot breed naturally it should not be being bred anyway. And the argument about it benefitting the genepool is a farce because exactly the opposite is much more likely. If a stud is that good then he will pass that on to his offspring, the mentality that every bitch on the planet should have access is a joke. Removes all question of compatability and increases the chances of some genetic anomaly coming back to bite us in the butt in a few years.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Kazel said:


> I've been wishing we could allow very structured outcrossing in some breeds. However, with the genetic diversity across lines and countries in GSDs. I don't know how large of a concern it should be. Rather if we could just begin crossing lines we could potentially get some genetic diversity that way. It depends on how homozoygous the various lines are across traits particularly those we need to get some heterozygosity in. The benefit of crossing lines over outcrossing to other breeds is we don't have 3+ generations of mixed breed crosses. While we may have culls in the mixed line litters they would at least still be registered GSDs and could be easily soft culled.
> 
> I really need to start bookmarking studies. Looking into outcrossing because of the current breeding practices and current lack of genetic diversity in breeds it does not lower the COI for very long. Doing it every several generations is apparently more effective than doing several outcrosses as once. However, this really depends on the breeding practices of whoever is doing the breeding. There is also the worry of introducing new disorders and issues into the breed via outcrosses. Somebody mentioned tervs, in the US that would be a bad idea as tervs currently need outcrossed in order to increase genetic diversity due to several nasty health issues they're struggling with.
> 
> ...


This simulator game has me intrigued! Is it available to the general public?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> One of the reasons I think AI should be really heavily regulated. A studs normal life span has the potential to produce a crapload of puppies as it is. AI allows that to be doubled or more. Not to mention the extra in his lifetime. If a dog cannot breed naturally it should not be being bred anyway. And the argument about it benefitting the genepool is a farce because exactly the opposite is much more likely. If a stud is that good then he will pass that on to his offspring, the mentality that every bitch on the planet should have access is a joke. Removes all question of compatability and increases the chances of some genetic anomaly coming back to bite us in the butt in a few years.


AI litters tend to be smaller, and all litters in general are a mess of genetics. You hope the dogs reproduce themselves but if the right genetics don't pass on they won't, that's why heavy linebreeding is such an issue. I'd much rather be able to use a dog's semen from 40 years ago than have to heavily linebreed on all of his progeny. AI can be an invaluable, for example by getting semen from overseas. It gives you more options for selecting a mate than you could have otherwise. The issue isn't the tech we have it's the way it's used. I don't think it needs heavily regulated per say. If a dog has a max limit of offspring permitted that counts whether it's AI or live covering. Although I could see adding additional registration for the use of AI years later.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

This is for Sabis Mom. 

I think AI has its place. Is it overused? Yes, absolutely. But I don't know how it could be regulated without squeezing out the other than mainstream types who could make the best and most valuable use of it. 

Let me posit a hypothetical case for you. Say there exists a male dog. In this one dog, due to an eccentric breeder, you have a dog that contains Bernd and Bodo v Lierberg, Axel v d DeininghauserHeide, Marko v CellerLand and old Kirschental blood before it was subsumed into the German High Line, with a touch of Don v Rolandsteich, and all of them up much much closer than any other dog still alive. This means this dog is a fount of old herding genetics that make him a living treasure hoard. He is 11 years old plus, still active, vigorous and working. But. Time is running out. 

Now, second half of hypothetical. Say either Ellen Nickelsby or White Clover Farms have a girl of either Manfred Heyne's long hoarded herding lines or Ulf has a girl of his equally long hoarded and cherished herding lines. And this hypothetical girl would be a perfect complement in Associative breeding. But. Ellen's in Wisconsin and White Clover Farm is in New Jersey. Nobody in this year of corona virus is going to travel. Ulf's got to be in his eighties. Ellen's no spring chicken any more either. 

A litter of this cross would be a genetic treasure house of Saxony and Swabian herding genes with no in-breeding. AI could make it happen, and relatively economically. Certainly in relation to getting one dog to the other via travel--nobody in their right mind would entrust either dog to airline shipping--or any other kind other than personal escort which is not currently possible. Would you use AI to do it? 

Just a question. K


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Just another revenue stream...

And that's always about the money and not the breed! In general, I'm sort of anti regulation. But on this issue, yes! Regulate the **** out of it, so that serious mismatches don't happen! 

Course when money is involved, you know they will...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Many years ago I corresponded with Dr. Malcolm Willis and he said in his book “The Genetic History of the German Shepherd” that heritability based on schutzhund scores/performance wal almost nil. It is clear that his research is true. All you have to do is look at the video someone posted of a German showline Shepherd who ran from the helper several times and he was judged as recommended for breeding. It is also true with working line dogs who are podium dogs because training is such a salient factor.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

Some things are heritable, like high bite thresholds. Low bite thresholds. High prey drive. Schutzhund trainers are some of the most sophisticated, skillful dog trainers in the world. Those tremendous skills of theirs are not heritable in the dogs but some people seem to wishfully think that they ought to be. Ah, well. K


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

kayhawk said:


> This is for Sabis Mom.
> 
> I think AI has its place. Is it overused? Yes, absolutely. But I don't know how it could be regulated without squeezing out the other than mainstream types who could make the best and most valuable use of it.
> 
> ...


AI is a tool. You have good mechanics and bad mechanics.
I see the use of it, but we let a stud sire thousands of pups, who sire thousands of pups and suddenly we have the perfect genetic storm and this sire started some disaster of a disease or anomaly and now we have thousands of ticking time bombs walking around reproducing, some traceable some maybe not because you know, that pesky ethical breeding issue.
I would rather deal with regulations, or see breeders take a much more "hands on" approach to who gets it.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Kayhawk,
Clearly certain traits are heritable. But sport, particularly, can employ training techniques which don’t show the true character of the dog. IGP is the worst example, but all sports train for exercises that reflect the quality of training and the dog has to have certain genetics to pass. An example in IGP is teaching the dog to bark for a ball in the blind. You can get a nice performance but the behavior based on that training approach is not a valid assessment of the dog’s behavior.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

Chip, my point exactly. I have enormous admiration for the skill of these trainers. But sometimes it seems to me that there is a disconnect between what people want to think and what is. They seem to want to look at scores and placings and decide what the dog is from that--possibly because it is easier? than to try to see what the dog actually is. And quite possibly they don't give the trainers quite enough credit for their skills. 

In women's fashion, models wear gowns on a runway to show them off. The models are chosen to be young,tall and thin and elegant. Rich people then pay exorbitant prices for the gown. In many cases they are neither young, tall nor thin nor elegant, but they buy the gown and pay the price because they're buying the fantasy that when they wear that gown they will look like that. 

I think a lot of the time people buy that 'titled' maybe high-scoring dog's pups because they want to think that's what the dog is, because if he is, then maybe they can train him out to do that, too. And maybe they can, IF (big if here) they have the SKILL. But they can't breed the trainer's skill into the dog. They, the person buying the pup, has to learn it the hard way. By putting in the time, the effort and the understanding. A lot of people have a hard time with that concept. Maybe because it's not so easy to become that good a trainer, and it takes time and discipline. 

Trainers (and judges) work with the dogs in front of them. If the training technique is maybe not the best for showing off the dog's true genetics but the training technique produces a 'nice performance' then we find ourselves with a question of whether we task the judge with looking for more--which may not be popular, and may result in the judge getting fewer judging gigs--or making a decision to go with a prevailing culture, which will get the judge more gigs.

Cynical, yes, but this is an old argument. You have one group who truly want to see the real dog, to see what's really there. You have another group who wants to score points and sell the fantasy. (You want to really get into fantasy, look at the German High-line dogs trying to do their Schutzhund exercises!) People have been trying to reconcile that for a long time. I've been listening for twenty years and I don't know how to do it and I don't think anybody does. Not really. It seems like every time somebody tries to set up a way to display the dog's true genetics, some canny trainer finds a way to game it. One thing I do know, Training is not heritable, any more than the fifty year old rich woman can shed thirty years and make herself look like that twenty year old model by putting on her dress. K


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