# Are we/us/they not being tough enough??



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Hey guys!

Not sure if this is the appropriate forum to pose this question/discussion/novel, and I haven't been on this forum in a long long time, so I don't know if traffic is still decent or if any of the breeders/working line people from when I was more active are still here, but thought I'd give it a shot on this slow afternoon of mine. If I get some responses awesome, if not, oh well lol. 

I've become much more active in the LE world as of the last year and a half or so. It's brought me to the Netherlands, England, and Belgium where I worked for my friend's company to choose dogs for single and dual purpose detection and patrol, trained with multiple KNPV clubs in the Netherlands and Belgium, and have been participating in the selection and training of several dogs, working with the company owners who have literally trained hundreds of dogs in sport and LE combined. These adventures and being a little Padawan in this world has really made me wonder about the GSD, breeders, and where the breed is going. The great dogs for single purpose detection are mostly springers, cockers, and labradors....dual dogs are usually mals, dutchies, or gsd crosses (usually with mali)....rarely does a pure gsd pass, usually it fails the hunt test or the environmental test (of this particular company).

My friend's company is incredibly strict about it's standard. There are plenty of times I absolutely love a dog for it's qualities in fight, and then it craps the bed on environmental, or is awesome environmentally but fails the hunt drive etc...It made me think of breeders and buyers and our/their standards.

I have met so many breeders who say they are strict and would wash a dog. Then saw a dog/bitch come along that they put a certain amount of time, energy, money, into...realized the dog was only so-so, or actually had a significant undesirable trait, but because of time and money, or pride, excuses were made, pedigrees were "matched" and dog/bitch was bred again and again and again....even if the puppies weren't stellar (in all honestly I personally will never buy a puppy now unless I watch the parents train or personally know and trust the breeder OR a person I know and implicitly trust, knows and trusts the breeder, unfortunately I think it's rare to find someone to trust, by chance.)

So my question to breeders is, have you washed dogs? Why? Have you bred dogs/bitches that you may have known in your heart/head you shouldn't? I also don't think it's only a breeder thing. I think an educated buyer should have a standard too, should try to (kindly) educate those that are trying to learn, try and drive the demand away from nervy, drive-lacking, non-working, dogs. The buyer needs to stick to his/her standard too, don't let looks, or one trait, cancel out what he/she may KNOW isn't good.

What do you guys think? Do you think too many excuses are made and bad dogs that shouldn't be bred, are? Do you think a good amount of breeders that breed crap, know deep down their dogs aren't ideal, but whatever...it's a paycheck? Or do you think it's more a case of breeder blindness, they're in denial of their dogs or don't really KNOW where their dog's weaknesses are? 

I will add two semi-off topic points to this. In my previous threads from over a year ago I was a HUGE proponent of titles on breeding animals, specifically IPO or working the dog in some venue. I still strongly believe this, but I also am seeing the problems in the IPO working world. I agree IPO is still SOMETHING, but a title alone has very little meaning when looking at a dog's nerve strength, means honestly nothing when it comes to hunt drive, and if trained a certain way and tested a certain way, can also not mean much about fight drive. I am NOT trying to knock sport, it is SOMETHING, and I 100% support breeders using it as a way to test and learn about their dogs. But, I wonder if sometimes the title can become another one of those excuses to breed a not-so-stellar dog/bitch, and if it's something to be wary of, just like anything else.

Point 2, I know, without a doubt, that just because a dog is a LE K9, or someone trains LE K9's, or is even a handler, doesn't mean they are stellar, their dog is stellar, or their training is stellar. Just like the sport world, I've been in it enough to meet some terrible police K9's that I can't believe are working the street, some handlers that are dumber than a box of rocks, and some training that is as confusing and unclear as it comes. I also know that saying a dog is a LE K9 impresses a lot of people and can become another excuse to breed something not so awesome. 

I've come to wonder if really a big problem is the inability to objectively look at breeding stock and make decisions, and honestly look at what we SHOULD NOT breed instead of breeding for one or two traits (prey drive, fight drive, etc) when there are known big problems (lacking nerve strength, lacking hunt drive, lacking environmental soundness). I think it is SO easy to breed something you don't believe is great, if you know you can move the puppies.

Anywho, curious everyone's thoughts on this topic. Hope all those I've talked with in the past are still around and you're all doing well!! I could talk about this ad nauseam for days, and still have more to say/ask, but I'll stop this novel here and first see if anyone is interested in discussing. :-D

Dani


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Hi Dani. IMO it's a different place here than it used to be. I took a break for about two years and jus recently checked in. 
Wow your really in the dog world now.
My view of what I like is the same. The breed in my opinion really needs better nerve strength no matter what flavor of GSD one likes. Everything follows nerve. Thats not to say there aren't good pet dogs without the greatest nerves but everything is easier and better for all when dogs have a solid nerve base.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Hey!!! Glad you checked in just in time!!

You and I have/had very similar thoughts on what's best. All around, Jack of all trades, what the GSD was always supposed to be, German Shepherd Dog. Unfortunately, my travels and little bit more experience have just furthered my thoughts as well. Nerve is the number one issue we see, lack of hunt drive being next on the list. A particularly nice GSD we tested was awesome, I loved him. Beautiful hunt drive, very nice bite work, nice possession, nice searching...thought for sure they'd buy him. Took him off property and he freaked out environmentally. Scrapped him. That was my first, "wow, you have to be harsh. You have to be strict, even when you don't want to be."

I understand most pet homes, or homes in general, don't really care about hunt drive. But to me it seems like kind of one of the lost traits, super rare to find (at least to the level we test for it). Also biddability, or the dogs willingness to please it's owner. I think sometimes this is mistaken for nervy/neediness. Until I worked a dog that didn't really care about me, and would rather run away with his toy by himself, I realized how incredibly frustrating a dog is that isn't biddable. I also realized that a dog I thought was biddable, was actually just quite needy, although I'll take slightly needy over disinterest in me lol!

KNPV training has to be at the top of my all-time-favorite-dog-training experiences. There were a handful of nice GSD's in that world too, talking with the club members and trainers, nerve was a problem, but more so was fight drive (KNPV is a very high demand sport and they aren't kidding around with the stress those dogs are put under). Which again, not a big deal to most homes, but I think it's really important in completing the well-rounded-ness of the GSD, and I don't think fight drive is the same as a dog going into defense. A dog that just enjoys the fight is different, imo, than one that is pushed into it...if that makes sense.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I was lucky enough to participate a couple different weekends of workshops with some KNPV trainers. They were generous in their knowledge and brought a dog over for a friends kennel(Dutch Shepherds). They have returned to the US a few times to work with LEO K9 teams and share their methods of working dogs.

I wish there would be more interest in the style of training here in the US. I think the methods they use are better when it comes to protection training, and the dog definitely needs heart and fight drive to excel. Hunt drive is very much part of that....I love the way they do the search exercises. 

IPO for me, lately, has become somewhat disappointing. The training style has taken over the dog, and only now and then do you see a dog that has something special.
Not to say the podium dogs are not special, but there is so much effort into training away or training into....the actual dog itself has been masked. I like a dog that shows itself for who it is and not get banged on for the sake of 'points'. 

I do know personally and train with breeders that have washed more than a few dogs from their program(that they have bred themselves). For one reason or another, the dogs aren't up to the standard the breeder strives for to reproduce. The dogs can excel at certain sports, but for breeding purposes, not going to do it. I applaud them for their discernment and even though it is so inconvenient and disappointing to wash a dog after investing a few years into a dog, there is always a good reason to find that dog a great place where it can excel without reproducing. 
These breeders are far and few between however. 
Too many have no clue about how to match up lines to produce balance, they go with the flavor of the month because it may market the pups faster. 
Breeding is an art. I am in awe of the ones that are getting it right over and over.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

You can "like" posts now!! Too cool! lol

The whole format has changed here too. 

Jane,

I am always intrigued by a breeder that has a dog he/she raised, trained, fed, cared for etc...and they've spayed/neutered him/her because they washed the dog. It just speaks volumes to me about the objectivity of the breeder. I have to further like the dogs, and I'm not saying that a breeder HAS to have washed dogs/bitches, but usually a breeder that is willing to do that has some nice dogs, because they are naturally stricter with their standards which leads to a certain quality, I've found. 

ETA: And I completely agree about KNPV. It's an awesome sport, I'm trying to do some KNPV stuff with my dutchie puppy, but the resources are of course limited. I also want to test him for hunt drive when he's mature enough and see if I can handle him as a detection dog for my friend's company. We'll see what he turns into though. ;-)


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

DaniFani said:


> and I don't think fight drive is the same as a dog going into defense. A dog that just enjoys the fight is different, imo, than one that is pushed into it...if that makes sense.


I thought fight drive was totally different than prey or defense drive. But fight drive would show itself at a later stage in life. After the dog has been worked in prey, and defense. Once that dog matured you was able to see its fight drive kind of like a certain swagger. Like I will rip your throat out I am a bad ass and I know it. Some dogs no matter what would never have that and some will. But it could also be squashed or not develop in a dog that was improperly trained. Or never trained past prey drive. Or never worked in defense.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@DaniFani what "company" are you talking about? Just curious.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> @DaniFani what "company" are you talking about? Just curious.


Lol, I'm not going to post my personal information on a public internet forum nor the company I work for. What I've been up to was to update old internet friends around here it doesn't really have a whole lot of bearing on the discussion. I definitely didn't put it out there to have a genital measuring contest like a lot of you guys like to immediately try to do (hence 'company' being put in quotations in your post)....plenty around here know me in real life and can vouch for me, or you can just choose to not believe me or whatever. You were one of the last people around here I had a "discussion" with about a year ago. I had just gotten back from a Europe trip and you tried to tell me that a LE K9 couldn't be "real" and still be social, I believe Lou Castle also came on and tried to explain how/why you were wrong. Something about how your big bad k9 can get a "bad look" from someone and would light up or something....I can't remember the details.

I looked back at your most recent post on here, your new k9? Chosen by an "elite group"?? That's part of what I do with the company, and then on the side when we have extra time in the Netherlands I go train with a couple of KNPV groups....heck, maybe one of them trained and certified your k9 (it's techinically a certification, not a title)?? There aren't that many of them, do you know the KNPV group that got your K9's KNPV certification? Or the handler for that matter? The Netherlands is pretty small, everyone knows someone. I have a picture somewhere of me and one of the most decorated KNPV handlers around and all his trophies. Super duper guy. Tried to talk me into getting a mali, I got a dutchie instead. ;-)


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@DaniFani, what an interesting response??? A PM would have sufficed if I knew you were so "sensitive." 

First off, I never said a LE K-9 couldn't be "real" and be social, that is just silly. Sociableness is very high on my list for a LE K-9. 

Your memory is poor and it seems that it may cause you to remember things rather inaccurately. Regarding Lou Castle, I'm not a fan and the guy never impressed me. Long posts do not make someone a good handler or good trainer and I believe he is neither. 

It's a shame that you are so sensitive. I put company in quotes because you kept referring to it as "my friend's company." The dog world is a small one and I thought that I might know your "friend." I don't see any reason for you to be so defensive as it was a honest question. I am always eager to find new vendors and people that supply quality dogs. That was the reason for asking about the "company." There were no ulterior motives, no hidden agenda, just a question on a dog forum. Don't get all wrapped around the axle about nothing. 

If you have some questions about my dog, go ahead and ask. If you need any info on my training or what I do, go ahead and ask. I have nothing to hide and plenty of people know me as well in the "real world." My name and info is out there.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Edit...nevermind....not worth it....can we get back on topic??


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Not being sensitive, just joking (albeit harshly) due to our encounters and strong disagreements in the past. I disagree with a lot of your ideas and statements around dogs and training from back then, still do. We'll just leave it at that. There are a million and one ways LE K9's are found and trained. This thread is about breeding and breed standards. If you really do want info or a discussion on something else you can PM me. Although I still think if you had really wanted vendor info you would have just pm'd me from the get go. ;-)


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

The breeder who bred my new pup trains K9s professionally. Some of her own dogs go into LE and make it. She has Czech and DDR lines. One of her studs was a working K9 in the Czech Republic.

Weberhaus German Shepherds - Home


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> Hey!!! Glad you checked in just in time!!
> 
> You and I have/had very similar thoughts on what's best. All around, Jack of all trades, what the GSD was always supposed to be, German Shepherd Dog. Unfortunately, my travels and little bit more experience have just furthered my thoughts as well. Nerve is the number one issue we see, lack of hunt drive being next on the list. A particularly nice GSD we tested was awesome, I loved him. Beautiful hunt drive, very nice bite work, nice possession, nice searching...thought for sure they'd buy him. Took him off property and he freaked out environmentally. Scrapped him. That was my first, "wow, you have to be harsh. You have to be strict, even when you don't want to be."
> 
> ...


Yes, I totally get what you mean about defense drive vs fight drive. I'm not sure a dog has to be all that stressed in fight drive--he's having a pretty good time in the brawl. My context is brawling over the tug or the sleeve. I think you can see the beginnings of it in puppies. They just really get into the fight. It's fun in and of itself.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

sometimes you GSD people are all crazy. it's not that serious. they're just dogs!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Dani.....I read your post and just smiled to myself. I thought back to you posts in years past BEFORE you went out and actually saw and experienced some things outside of Internet and sport. Now the world looks a little different , huh? 
Not trying to be malicious, I'm just amused....lol.
The sport world and real world have some points of agreement in breeding, type, and performance, but they are traveling in different directions( least the sport world is) and the gulf is widening. I'm been saying this for many years, and a lot of my sport friends are starting to acknowledge this and many are still blind to the light. 
Anyway, I won't belabor the point, but I am glad you have broaden your horizons. It's never bad to be exposed to additional information,imo.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Meh. In my experience the people consistently at the highest level of the sport world are picking exceptional dogs that would do great in real world applications. 

Weaker handlers are probably finding they are getting better scores with weaker dogs, hence the whole idea of "point dog."

They're doing better with weaker dogs and breeders start watering down dogs for clientele.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Haha, cliff!!! I was hoping you'd come around, I can't tell you how many times I have thought back on our conversations or conversations around here and smiled or outright laughed. Someday I hope I know as much as I knew in the beginning. hahahaha

Bailiff, eh....the top scoring dogs at the last nationals were my least favorite dogs, some of the lower scoring ones I liked better. Everything was about the obedience, which was superb and awesome to watch, but it was just the obedience. Only one Nationals and it was a west coast one so entries were lower. However, if the dogs only competing at the highest levels are the "good ones," well thats a pretty narrow gene pool. And I don't think a gsd should be so incredibly difficult to handle, that it requires an experienced handler and all the time in the world to train. Maybe I'm wrong, but weren't they supposed to be able to work and then turn it off? Adapt to their environments and lifestyles? I don't know if I believe that a "quality" gsd should have to have a super experienced handler or family, then again I've worked so much helping pet homes I do understand the "pet home" mentality can be frustrating and ridiculous (in some cases) for any breed to thrive.

I also will say that some of breeding (or maybe a lot of breeding) is about personal preference. Maybe that's wrong, right, or neither...but I personally like a dog that slows down and thinks, who's brain isn't spinning a 100 mph, who still brings speed, agility, and power, but can do it while thinking. I guess I can't make blanket statements about top level dogs because I'm not one, but I like a dog that thinks and solves problems. Not one that goes head long into a task and jumps off a roof, because he was so focused on the end goal at the bottom to realize, he's jumping off a roof. I know some people love that dog that's 100 mph brain and never stops and will jump off the cliff if his ball is thrown there. Both dogs may be capable of completing the same task....I just prefer one over the other. As I'm sure everyone does.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Many high point dogs I don't consider exceptional, especially for real world, but they do have superb training/trainers. There are some great dogs in the top sport echelon, but there are also some great dogs with mediocre handlers that some folks don't see the value in as far as breeding,imo.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Cliff, I agree that not all high point dogs are exceptional, some do have exceptional training. Folks like you with years of experience can see the difference and know what you are looking at. I also agree that the people that are consistently at the highest level do pick exceptional dogs that would do well as dual purpose dogs. These folks also have experience and know what works. 

I agree that the breed has changed with the SL and some sporty WL dogs. That is part of the reason that many serious working line folks are going to Malinois, Dutch Shepherds and crosses. Not everyone can handle a high drive dog, inexperienced folks do not see the value in a high drive dog with good prey and serious aggression and fight drive. It takes time, years, not one or two to see the differences. It also takes training a lot of dogs, from pups to adults and seeing those dogs work to gain some real insight. We all value certain traits in dogs, I think at the end of the day, we like dogs that can work regardless of breed or pedigree. A good working dog is a good working dog in my book. However, a GSD with these traits is really an awesome dog. 

A friend once said in regards to Harley riders: "$20,000 and a thousand miles doesn't make a person a biker." Similar to working dogs in the real world. It takes a whole lot of experience working a lot of different dogs to begin to get an understanding of what is needed. The more I work, test and select dogs the more apparent this is. I got bitten really nicely in the stomach testing hunt drive on a dog on Thursday. Doing towel throws and testing hunt and prey drive is part of my selection criteria. It comes right after seeing how social the dog is, geez I do evaluate dogs on how social they are....Go figure, it's the first test that I do. :surprise: Then gunfire with no stimulation. Next is hunt drive for a rolled up towel. It's all fun and high praise at this point. One dog dropped the towel and nailed me really well in the stomach and even in prey it made me say "ouch." I should text you a picture of my stomach, it was a good bite. :wink2:


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> @Cliff, I agree that not all high point dogs are exceptional, some do have exceptional training. Folks like you with years of experience can see the difference and know what you are looking at. I also agree that the people that are consistently at the highest level do pick exceptional dogs that would do well as dual purpose dogs. These folks also have experience and know what works.
> 
> I agree that the breed has changed with the SL and some sporty WL dogs. That is part of the reason that many serious working line folks are going to Malinois, Dutch Shepherds and crosses. Not everyone can handle a high drive dog, inexperienced folks do not see the value in a high drive dog with good prey and serious aggression and fight drive. It takes time, years, not one or two to see the differences. It also takes training a lot of dogs, from pups to adults and seeing those dogs work to gain some real insight. We all value certain traits in dogs, I think at the end of the day, we like dogs that can work regardless of breed or pedigree. A good working dog is a good working dog in my book. However, a GSD with these traits is really an awesome dog.
> 
> A friend once said in regards to Harley riders: "$20,000 and a thousand miles doesn't make a person a biker." Similar to working dogs in the real world. It takes a whole lot of experience working a lot of different dogs to begin to get an understanding of what is needed. The more I work, test and select dogs the more apparent this is. I got bitten really nicely in the stomach testing hunt drive on a dog on Thursday. Doing towel throws and testing hunt and prey drive is part of my selection criteria. It comes right after seeing how social the dog is, geez I do evaluate dogs on how social they are....Go figure, it's the first test that I do. :surprise: Then gunfire with no stimulation. Next is hunt drive for a rolled up towel. It's all fun and high praise at this point. One dog dropped the towel and nailed me really well in the stomach and even in prey it made me say "ouch." I should text you a picture of my stomach, it was a good bite. :wink2:


It's refreshing that you are so transparent and don't "hide behind a keyboard" with a holier than thou attitude. Thanks Jim


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cloudpump said:


> It's refreshing that you are so transparent and don't "hide behind a keyboard" with a holier than thou attitude. Thanks Jim


Odd post. Who is hiding?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What is so odd about it?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

It's odd for someone to not have the guts to say who they think is "hiding behind the keyboard". We of course are free to guess but I prefer being above board when making comments. Own it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think when someone does not want to divulge their company they are associated with when it comes to LEO involvement, it should be respected. Transparency has it's place, and so does discretion.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jack's Dad said:


> It's odd for someone to not have the guts to say who they think is "hiding behind the keyboard". We of course are free to guess but I prefer being above board when making comments. Own it.


Maybe it is a part of discretion between the two parties.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Let's get back on topic and leave the snarking in your heads and off the board. 

Thank you,

A very tired Admin who is not in the best of moods, Lisa*


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Jack's Dad said:


> It's odd for someone to not have the guts to say who they think is "hiding behind the keyboard". We of course are free to guess but I prefer being above board when making comments. Own it.


I apologize for inciting you in my post to slam. It really was not a backhanded insult to anyone. If that's what was inferred so be it. It seems the OP stated clearly that they have experience and it was interesting to read their post, being that I'm so new and inexperienced. So again, my apologies to you, for accidentally insulting anyone.

OP. I'm curious if the advancement of information on the internet about dogs is just allowing more people to actually get information on a dog, rather than just going on heresay. So it appears more dogs are weaker than they used to be? Pardon me for being so new to this.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> I apologize for inciting you in my post to slam. It really was not a backhanded insult to anyone. If that's what was inferred so be it. It seems the OP stated clearly that they have experience and it was interesting to read their post, being that I'm so new and inexperienced. So again, my apologies to you, for accidentally insulting anyone.
> 
> OP. I'm curious if the advancement of information on the internet about dogs is just allowing more people to actually get information on a dog, rather than just going on heresay. So it appears more dogs are weaker than they used to be? Pardon me for being so new to this.


I am also learning. I always read Slam's posts on the subject because he know what he is talking about. I'm very curious about the OP's experience, and would like to hear more about the company. Also how someone who is new to this type of training like the OP was can move into a professional job in the field.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

cloudpump said:


> I apologize for inciting you in my post to slam. It really was not a backhanded insult to anyone. If that's what was inferred so be it. It seems the OP stated clearly that they have experience and it was interesting to read their post, being that I'm so new and inexperienced. So again, my apologies to you, for accidentally insulting anyone.
> 
> OP. I'm curious if the advancement of information on the internet about dogs is just allowing more people to actually get information on a dog, rather than just going on heresay. So it appears more dogs are weaker than they used to be? Pardon me for being so new to this.


Cloudpump,
IMO, dogs are not weaker today in general, they are however different. If we are speaking about the GSD and generalizing, then yes, there are less "hard" and not as driven GSD's as there were 20 - 25 years ago. IPO is really not the problem, breeders who do not work dogs are the problem. There are plenty of working line GSD breeders in the US that excel at IPO and produce GSD's that are suitable for LE work. Cloud pump, you have first hand experience with a couple of them. This is nothing new and relates directly to many of Cliff's posts. He has experience with dogs for a lot of years and can see the changes. I remember WGSL dogs imported from top BSZS winners that made exceptional dual purpose dogs back in the 90's. I had a 3/4 WGSL x 1/4 ASL dog that was an exceptional working dog with V rated conformation back in the late 90's. I'd like to have him today, he had the drive and aggression of 4 dogs. 

When it comes to finding suitable dogs for LE with the right set of traits, temperament, nerves, aggression and social enough, they are easy to find. They may be a Malinois, KNPV Mali mix or a GSD X Mali cross, but they are clearly available. They may take a more experienced, skilled and "harder" handler to work, but they are exceptional dogs. There are plenty of dogs out there to be found with all the right stuff and plenty of GSD's that have it. You just have to know where to look and what to look for.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I have seen some high scoring accomplished dogs that are being bred and have some pretty major weaknesses.

That being said breeding can be a funny thing..
I have seen some God awesome dogs out of lackluster bitches. When you where in the Netherlands I'm sure you have seen some of the malinois and dutchy bitches they use. They definitely aren't all super dogs. Many have a nice pedigree and that's it..
I would love to bring some KNPV blood bitches into my Malinois breeding program. Trouble is that dang FCI pedigree..lol.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Let me preface this by saying that I am coming at the breed from a completely different angle as many on this board. I am still coming from a working perspective, but not the "needs to bite" working perspective.

I am seeing a lack of nerve strength across the board. Show lines, working/sport lines, American, European, doesn't matter. Strong nerves are difficult to find.

I am a handler looking for a mobility service dog. I need an animal with high thresholds towards environmental stimuli and that leans towards socially open. Sharpness is a liability (sharpness vs willingness to bite are not the same thing).

I cannot find a dog that can do the work I need it to do, and I believe that is in part because, contrary to what some die hard IPOers may believe, they've created specialist animals just as much as show line people have done.

Dogs that are too high in prey with low thresholds...impossible to live with, want to chase every blasted thing that moves, OCD issues.

Dogs that are too reactive to environmental stimuli.

Dogs that are too sharp and cannot cap.

It's a problem.

Do I think our breed is ruined? Not by a long shot. Has there been hyperfocus in IPO just like with show lines? Absolutely. It makes it very frustrating to find a GSD capable of work other than biting.

And lots of the GSDs I have seen working as service dogs...shouldn't be service dogs.

I have washed my last 4 prospects (three were GSDs, one was another breed). Service work chews up dogs and spits them out like rotten lettuce, but it still shouldn't be so excruciatingly hard to find a utilitarian working animal.

People need to remember that work goes beyond dogs that can chomp chomp


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are plenty of good GS out there, but unfortunately there are more people breeding for the fringes or extremes! A well bred GS should have the genetics to do IPO or service work or LE or family dog. 
The OP should be able to get the type of dog he is looking for if he gets the right pup in a well bred litter. Jackie, why do you have to look to working lines for service dog, you should be able to get service dog from the dogs you breed. ( For people who show or do sport, every dog in litter will not be show quality or podium champs....why shouldn't the other pups be able to be good service dogs or guide dogs or family dogs IF the litter is well bred???? )
If show dogs can't be service dogs we have lost our way, if sport dogs can't be working dogs, we have lost our way....breeders that don't breed for versatility in the breed have lost their way to my way of thinking. That's my rant for 2017 on this topic....see you in 2018 if it's Lords will.&#55357;&#56898;


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Bitework says alot about the dog if you know what your looking at. If your dog lacks the basic nerve to do it then you shouldn't breed him or her.
I see a ton of GSD that would make good service dogs. Generally not the ones you want to breed to but the inevitable average pups that make up large parts of many litters. Breeding GSD to be service dogs will just be an excuse to produce more weak nerve bags.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Slamdunc said:


> Cloudpump,
> IMO, dogs are not weaker today in general, they are however different. If we are speaking about the GSD and generalizing, then yes, there are less "hard" and not as driven GSD's as there were 20 - 25 years ago. IPO is really not the problem, breeders who do not work dogs are the problem. There are plenty of working line GSD breeders in the US that excel at IPO and produce GSD's that are suitable for LE work. Cloud pump, you have first hand experience with a couple of them. This is nothing new and relates directly to many of Cliff's posts. He has experience with dogs for a lot of years and can see the changes. I remember WGSL dogs imported from top BSZS winners that made exceptional dual purpose dogs back in the 90's. I had a 3/4 WGSL x 1/4 ASL dog that was an exceptional working dog with V rated conformation back in the late 90's. I'd like to have him today, he had the drive and aggression of 4 dogs.
> 
> When it comes to finding suitable dogs for LE with the right set of traits, temperament, nerves, aggression and social enough, they are easy to find. They may be a Malinois, KNPV Mali mix or a GSD X Mali cross, but they are clearly available. They may take a more experienced, skilled and "harder" handler to work, but they are exceptional dogs. There are plenty of dogs out there to be found with all the right stuff and plenty of GSD's that have it. You just have to know where to look and what to look for.


Did no one preserve those good wgsl dogs? Are they just gone?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Xeph,
I am a little confused, perhaps I do not understand the needs that you have for a service dog? AS Cliff mentioned, and I know that you breed very nice dogs and if I am not mistaken don't you also do herding with some of your dogs? They seem to be pretty versatile dogs. 

I am going to post my views and preface it by saying they re not directed at you. It is a general statement based on what I see on dog forums. I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your accomplishments with your dogs and breeding. This post is genuine and in no way meant to offend you. I have followed and enjoyed your posts for years.

Biting and aggression is not everything, but on dog forums it seems to be the "Holy Grail" of working dogs. Everyone wants the uber tough GSD to be _laying_ at their feet all day or thinks they have it. Of course that super hard, super aggressive dog also has to have the proverbial "off" switch because most folks won't train, exercise or condition their dogs they way they need to. The "high prey" drive dogs get bashed because they can't settle, contain or control themselves. I have three here at my home and they all relax and settle. Even the crazy Dutch Shepherd X Malionis I have is easy to travel with and settles very nicely. He is just as easy as Boomer, my high drive GSD to travel and hang out with. I have taken three road trips to Fla in the past 5 months and Boru has come on every trip. 

I wonder what you do test and select potential service dog candidates? What is your evaluation process like? How much time do you spend testing dogs? I went to test potential dual purpose Patrol Dogs on Thursday, it took 5 1/2 - 6 hours to test 6 dogs. I am pretty thorough when testing and nerve, temperament and environmental strength are big on my list. I saw a super nice 12 month old female GSD that was social, friendly, outgoing and had strong nerves. The dog handled pressure and also had high prey and toy drive. Although, this dog would bite it had to be pushed. I was close on selecting this dog, I really liked her and she could be a service dog or a decent patrol / great narcotics dog. 

You said:
*I cannot find a dog that can do the work I need it to do, and I believe that is in part because, contrary to what some die hard IPOers may believe, they've created specialist animals just as much as show line people have done.

Dogs that are too high in prey with low thresholds...impossible to live with, want to chase every blasted thing that moves, OCD issues.

Dogs that are too reactive to environmental stimuli.

Dogs that are too sharp and cannot cap.*

These are breeding issues and should not be blamed on IPO. What you describe are dogs that have poor temperaments and lack the nerves to deal with higher drives or stress. Unfortunately, many American bred dogs and ASL dogs fall into the category of too reactive and too sharp. Poor breeding creates dogs that lack the nerve strength to deal with environmental stimulus. Anytime you breed for a certain trait, color, look or structure you will have issues because it is not breeding for the total dog. I'm sure you have seen many SL "champions" or Grand Champions that are complete spooks. Should these dogs really be promoted and bred too? 

I know several GSD breeders that easily produce working and service dogs on a regular basis. I have a female here that is Narcotics certified, will do IPO with super grips, tracks like a machine and would be an ideal service dog candidate. She is not dog aggressive, people friendly, solid and confident. I would trust that dog anywhere. She is high drive and has high prey drive and needs exercise. She settles very nicely in the house and does cap and turn off. Dogs like her need to be managed and appreciated for what that drive brings. She is from very high end IPO lines and her breeder produces GSD's that work in many venues, from service dogs, SAR dogs, IPO and LE work with each breeding. 

I'm thinking that you must be starting with puppies for your service dog. Honestly, washing out 4 dogs is a lot. I'm thinking there must be a disconnect in your evaluation process or training. Sometimes training needs to be adjusted to fit the individual dog. It is very rare for us to wash a dog, I've had to ponder a few things in training and make adjustments for certain dogs but they excel when trained correctly. It shouldn't be that difficult to find a dog for service work. I realize that you are a conformation breeder which does put you into that 'specialty" breeding category, you are not breeding for a "utilitarian working animal" either. Again, I respect and admire your accomplishments and all the effort, time and hard work that you put into your dogs and breeding program. I think you just need to either adjust your selection process or your training process to find the right service dog. I see plenty of young GSD's that could cut it as service dogs, they often are not the dogs that I would select as Patrol dogs but are great single purpose dogs.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Bitework says alot about the dog if you know what your looking at. If your dog lacks the basic nerve to do it then you shouldn't breed him or her.
> I see a ton of GSD that would make good service dogs. Generally not the ones you want to breed to but the inevitable average pups that make up large parts of many litters. Breeding GSD to be service dogs will just be an excuse to produce more weak nerve bags.


No, I don't think so. A true assistance dog needs to have solid nerves, strong temperament and confidence. Service dog training is no joke and very serious work. Service dogs need to be sufficiently hard and resilient to handle the pressure of the training. It is not for every dog and many GSD's would fold under the pressure. A good service dog needs to be strong enough to handle some serious pressure in training with out any aggression. Weak, nervy dogs, dogs with environmental issues will not cut it in a professional service dog / assistance dog program, IME.

There is a tremendous amount of work that goes into training an assistance dog and it is not all checkers and treats, trust me.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Did no one preserve those good wgsl dogs? Are they just gone?



No, there are some excellent WGSL dogs out there. It really depends on what you like, want and need. You really need to know where to find them as they are not as plentiful as they once were.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> Cloudpump,
> IMO, dogs are not weaker today in general, they are however different. If we are speaking about the GSD and generalizing, then yes, there are less "hard" and *not as driven* GSD's as there were 20 - 25 years ago. *IPO is really not the problem*, breeders who do not work dogs are the problem. There are plenty of working line GSD breeders in the US that excel at IPO and produce GSD's that are suitable for LE work. Cloud pump, you have first hand experience with a couple of them. This is nothing new and relates directly to many of Cliff's posts. He has experience with dogs for a lot of years and can see the changes. I remember WGSL dogs imported from top BSZS winners that made exceptional dual purpose dogs back in the 90's. I had a 3/4 WGSL x 1/4 ASL dog that was an exceptional working dog with V rated conformation back in the late 90's. I'd like to have him today, he had the drive and aggression of 4 dogs.
> 
> When it comes to finding suitable dogs for LE with the right set of traits, temperament, nerves, aggression and social enough, they are easy to find. They may be a Malinois, KNPV Mali mix or a GSD X Mali cross, but they are clearly available. They may take a more experienced, skilled and "harder" handler to work, but they are exceptional dogs. There are plenty of dogs out there to be found with all the right stuff and plenty of GSD's that have it. You just have to know where to look and what to look for.


Couldn't disagree more...and it depends on what "drive" you are talking about. Fight? Prey? Hunt? Possession? Biddability? Food? In my opinion there is EXTREME "drive" in todays sport dogs, extreme to a fault. (only quoted you because this is a common belief I don't subscribe to, the rest is not geared towards you, just general comments).

When it comes to choosing LE or working dogs, it is so different from department to department and sometimes even between handlers within a department (if the handler has a big say). 

Depends on the expectations of the dog. Handler help, for example. Is it a department/handler that is okay with every step of the search the handler pointing and saying "Fido, search, here, search, this, search." It's fascinating to tell a handler don't tell your dog anything other than search, then step back...the dog will look exactly where the handler pointed and then sit back and look at it's handler like, "ok....show me where to look, I checked that wheelwell...what next? I just want my ball, I'll sniff where ever you point for my ball" Vs the dog that the handler say's search and the dog literally searches the entire vehicle unprompted, and then the next and the next, mouth closed, nose engaged, truly hunting..... It's a neat site to behold and I truly believe there are less dogs out there that will search that way, but plenty that will if the handler is holding their paw through the whole search. All comes down to different strokes. Depending on how you train and your expectations, there may in fact be a ton of dogs available, they just wouldn't meet another person's expectations.

I think that natural hunt drive is hard to find. Enough hunt drive to be helped along, sure, and they may find drugs/weapons/articles etc...but the handler is just as much a reason the dog found it that the dog is. 

Breeding for ipo alone does not foster hunt drive, imo....at least the kind of hunt drive I consider exceptional. So many think aggression is the sole attribute to look for in a "workable" dog, hunt drive is equally important (more if it's a single purpose detection), and once you see the dog that will search until it drops, without needing handler help, the other pales in comparison. Just like meeting a dog that truly wants to fight for the love of the fight, is different than a dog that is just playing a game.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> I apologize for inciting you in my post to slam. It really was not a backhanded insult to anyone. If that's what was inferred so be it. It seems the OP stated clearly that they have experience and it was interesting to read their post, being that I'm so new and inexperienced. So again, my apologies to you, for accidentally insulting anyone.
> 
> *OP. I'm curious if the advancement of information on the internet about dogs is just allowing more people to actually get information on a dog, rather than just going on heresay. So it appears more dogs are weaker than they used to be? Pardon me for being so new to this.*


I don't think so. The dog world has always been small. Information on the internet is still, heresay, imo. 

Don't ever apologize for being "new."  Even handlers of multiple LE dogs can learn something.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

DaniFani said:


> *Couldn't disagree more...and it depends on what "drive" you are talking about. Fight? Prey? Hunt? Possession? Biddability? Food? In my opinion there is EXTREME "drive" in todays sport dogs, extreme to a fault. (only quoted you because this is a common belief I don't subscribe to, the rest is not geared towards you, just general comments).*
> 
> When it comes to choosing LE or working dogs, it is so different from department to department and sometimes even between handlers within a department (if the handler has a big say).
> 
> ...


Of course, you couldn't disagree more. :wink2: 

How much have you done in IPO? How many dogs have you raised and trained from a pup to an IPO 3? How many clubs have you belonged too? How many dogs have you decoyed for from pups to IPO 3? How many dogs have you decoyed for in IPO? How many dog shave you trained to FST (foot step track)? How many dogs and handlers have you trained to do hard surface tracks in the real world? How many patrol dogs or MWD's have you trained and worked in the real world? How many dogs have you trained in detection work? Howe many green handlers and green dogs have you trained in patrol work and detection work? 

It is a serious question. I'd like to get a good read on your experience level. Unfortunately, I do not recall us having any conversations besides this thread as you claim you remember. You claim to have disagreed with me in the past and that is fine. Everyone has opinions, some can back them up with actual hands on experience working dogs. There are plenty of people that I may disagree with from time to time, but I respect their achievements and accomplishments with their dogs. We can disagree, you can strongly disagree and have your opinion by all means. It is the internet after all. Please don't be offended that I asked a few questions, I didn't use any quotation marks. :grin2: Just trying to get a read on what you base your opinions on.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I have seen some high scoring accomplished dogs that are being bred and have some pretty major weaknesses.
> 
> That being said breeding can be a funny thing..
> I have seen some God awesome dogs out of lackluster bitches. When you where in the Netherlands I'm sure you have seen some of the malinois and dutchy bitches they use. They definitely aren't all super dogs. Many have a nice pedigree and that's it..
> I would love to bring some KNPV blood bitches into my Malinois breeding program. Trouble is that dang FCI pedigree..lol.


Oh KNPV, just like anything else, isn't foolproof. The certification requirements are just so complex, the tests so stress-inducing, the article finds more difficult, the water works, the bike attacks, etc....Is is just all around more impressive than IPO. I also think ring sport is impressive. Ring sport call offs are insane. But a certification or title alone, as always, doesn't tell you everything. It also doesn't tell you some things, like if the dog is social or not, handler aggressive or not...etc. 

Some don't care about that. Adlerhorst is known for putting out some very handler aggressive dogs. I believe one of Reever's dogs attacked a handler's 3 year old and the child had to have it's leg or arm amputated. Reever is obviously very well respected and successful, but as I said in another post....different strokes for different folks. People like what they like. 

But when it comes to breeding (LE, IPO, KNPV, etc...aside)? Why breed the dog that would come up the line at you, for example? It doesn't make the dog harder than one that wouldn't, imo (and I'm not talking about a dog reacting to unfair corrections/training, I'm talking about that dog that actually wants to get you). It's a flaw just like nerve (imo), and if bred should be bred knowledgeably and carefully with the correct "match." I guess that's what's up for debate though.  I mean, should we breed that dog? Is breeding a handler aggressive dog just as bad as breeding an environmentally unsound dog? At what point is the line drawn? What is okay to breed (even though it's undesirable) and what isn't? 

Handler aggression is just an example I went to, I would ask the same questions for weak nerve, lack of hunt drive, unbalanced prey drive etc....


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> Of course, you couldn't disagree more. :wink2:
> 
> How much have you done in IPO? How many dogs have you raised and trained from a pup to an IPO 3? How many clubs have you belonged too? How many dogs have you decoyed for from pups to IPO 3? How many dogs have you decoyed for in IPO? How many dog shave you trained to FST (foot step track)? How many dogs and handlers have you trained to do hard surface tracks in the real world? How many patrol dogs or MWD's have you trained and worked in the real world? How many dogs have you trained in detection work? Howe many green handlers and green dogs have you trained in patrol work and detection work?
> 
> It is a serious question. I'd like to get a good read on your experience level. Unfortunately, I do not recall us having any conversations besides this thread as you claim you remember. You claim to have disagreed with me in the past and that is fine. Everyone has opinions, some can back them up with actual hands on experience working dogs. There are plenty of people that I may disagree with from time to time, but I respect their achievements and accomplishments with their dogs. We can disagree, you can strongly disagree and have your opinion by all means. It is the internet after all. Please don't be offended that I asked a few questions, I didn't use any quotation marks. :grin2: Just trying to get a read on what you base your opinions on.


Lol, oh lord the amount of PM's I've gotten regarding people's annoyance with you is hilarious, and you're proving so many of them right. You'll probably dismiss that because you don't have their resumes, but I find it hilarious and you are proving so many of their points lol. I'm not putting my resume on here. You can have the discussion or not. The people that matter know what I do, what I've done, where I work. You do not matter to me, your "gage" on my experience, doesn't matter to me. You can participate or not. I really don't care. Believe me or not, dismiss every point I've made because I've not told you what you want to know about ME instead of the discussion at hand, which is breeding, the breed standard, and workability. I could tell you I've trained 17 dual purpose dogs, went through 18 single purpose detection academies, I could tell you I worked for Adlerhorst, Vom Licht, or for a kennel in Rotterdam. I could tell you I've trained dogs for TSA, went through training programs in Norway, or put 15 dogs on the street in the midwest. I could tell you anything I wanted, it could be lies, truths, half truths, or fantasy. See how it just doesn't matter, this is the internet, my friend. You caring about what I do and my resume, means absolutely nothing to me. Plenty of the people I'm discussing things with know me in real life and some don't know me from Adam, some how I can have equal discussions with both. My ego isn't wrapped up in what they think of me....we can talk or not....means squat to me.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

DaniFani said:


> Lol, oh lord the amount of PM's I've gotten regarding people's annoyance with you is hilarious, and you're proving so many of them right. You'll probably dismiss that because you don't have their resumes, but I find it hilarious and you are proving so many of their points lol. I'm not putting my resume on here. You can have the discussion or not. The people that matter know what I do, what I've done, where I work. You do not matter to me, your "gage" on my experience, doesn't matter to me. You can participate or not. I really don't care. Believe me or not, dismiss every point I've made because I've not told you what you want to know about ME instead of the discussion at hand, which is breeding, the breed standard, and workability. I could tell you I've trained 17 dual purpose dogs, went through 18 single purpose detection academies, I could tell you I worked for Adlerhorst, Vom Licht, or for a kennel in Rotterdam. I could tell you I've trained dogs for TSA, went through training programs in Norway, or put 15 dogs on the street in the midwest. I could tell you anything I wanted, it could be lies, truths, half truths, or fantasy. See how it just doesn't matter, this is the internet, my friend. You caring about what I do and my resume, means absolutely nothing to me. Plenty of the people I'm discussing things with know me in real life and some don't know me from Adam, some how I can have equal discussions with both. My ego isn't wrapped up in what they think of me....we can talk or not....means squat to me.


You quoted me, I was very content to let it go. I'm sorry your PM box is filling up....:grin2: This is not about ego and dog training never should be. 

I agree with part of your OP and it is the same thing that I have been saying for years. Not that it matters, but to knock some K-9 handlers as "dumber than a box of rocks" when you have never done the job is annoying. Not all K-9 handlers are "stellar" as you say, but you don't have to be Michael Ellis or Ivan to be a good cop and very good handler. Yup, not all K-9's are the epitome of the breed or the best working dogs, but they are functional patrol or detection dogs. We do not need the best point dogs, BSP champions or KNPV national winners to be effective patrol dogs. Often times the high scoring dogs do not make the best patrol dogs. 

If you work for a vendor that holds handler classes then you will most certainly see the less than "stellar" handlers. Unfortunately, the Depts that send handlers through vendor classes are lacking in experience. I often feel sorry for the handlers that buy a dog trained by a vendor and go through a 2 - 10 week class for certification. Yes, those handlers are often lacking in training and stuck with what the vendor teaches them. It happens in my area with the smaller PD's and Sheriffs Offices. After they get their dog they often come and train with us to correct the issues. Not every PD has in house training and multiple handlers. 

I sincerely wish you luck in your training and career. Perhaps, you will be the next Debbie Zappia and compete and train at a high level. Until then, keep an open mind and soak up as much knowledge and information as you can. You don't know it all just yet. Best of luck to you.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

DaniFani said:


> Lol, oh lord the amount of PM's I've gotten regarding people's annoyance with you is hilarious, and you're proving so many of them right. You'll probably dismiss that because you don't have their resumes, but I find it hilarious and you are proving so many of their points lol. I'm not putting my resume on here. You can have the discussion or not. The people that matter know what I do, what I've done, where I work. You do not matter to me, your "gage" on my experience, doesn't matter to me. You can participate or not. I really don't care. Believe me or not, dismiss every point I've made because I've not told you what you want to know about ME instead of the discussion at hand, which is breeding, the breed standard, and workability. I could tell you I've trained 17 dual purpose dogs, went through 18 single purpose detection academies, I could tell you I worked for Adlerhorst, Vom Licht, or for a kennel in Rotterdam. I could tell you I've trained dogs for TSA, went through training programs in Norway, or put 15 dogs on the street in the midwest. I could tell you anything I wanted, it could be lies, truths, half truths, or fantasy. See how it just doesn't matter, this is the internet, my friend. You caring about what I do and my resume, means absolutely nothing to me. Plenty of the people I'm discussing things with know me in real life and some don't know me from Adam, some how I can have equal discussions with both. My ego isn't wrapped up in what they think of me....we can talk or not....means squat to me.



I can only hope you show more professionalism at your job. There are ways to answer questions or not answer them that still show respect to people.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Deb said:


> I can only hope you show more professionalism at your job. There are ways to answer questions or not answer them that still show respect to people.


:thumbup:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Sorry, For all who have sent out notifications and PM's, I have been out training my dogs and not hanging on the internet today. 

Let's please keep this discussion civil. It is possible to have differing opinions based on different experiences and discuss these differences without turning them into personal attacks. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well, I have a question. Or maybe a few questions. I keep reading how police departments are moving away from GSDs. I know many many service dog agaencies won't use GSDs now or at least not any more

(Side note, I sure would love to know more about the Fidelco breeding program)

Now I keep meaning to buy the Stephanizt book and still have not but am I correct that the dog was supposed to be able to be a herding dog, a police dog, or a service dog? So if it is not the go to dog for 2 of those, then maybe something IS wrong with at least a decent amount of the dogs being bred or the focus of the breeders?

I have heard that service dog orgs like labs better at least in part because they transfer handlers better. But don't most if not all law enforcement k9s and MWD change handlers at least a few times, from vendor to officer ect...and they handle it obviously?

My dog worked for about 8 years, and she really worked (service dog), flew all over the country, traversed big cites, camped in a hospice house for 2 weeks.....NOTHING fazed her. She did her job no matter what. Hot, cold, hungry, tired, while being accosted by the general public. She never misplaced aggression or protection in all those years and she is a protective dog. And they say GSDs can't be pared with people who have PTSD because they sense the handler's panic and try again to protect them from the handler's percieved threat which might just be the TSA security agent who isn't a threat at all. My dog never made that mistake, not even close, she absolutely a hundred percent knew I was wrong about stuff sometimes. In fact sometimes there was a real threat and *I* didn't respond appropriately but in that case SHE did. Basically she was so sure of herself and her perception that she did not need me to tell her what to think of people and situations.

Is that super uncommon? Do dogs like that exist out there?

I may be back with more...I think I had another thing I wanted to bring up but that is it for now


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well, I have a question. Or maybe a few questions. I keep reading how police departments are moving away from GSDs. I know many many service dog agaencies won't use GSDs now or at least not any more
> 
> (Side note, I sure would love to know more about the Fidelco breeding program)
> 
> ...


Serviced dogs is a "broad area" but much like my online quest to find k9 Boxers doing that job in "America" I went on a hunt. It was a 50/50 result. I was looking for any "American Line" Boxer and I did find one ... but that dog had retired. I did find the rest and they are all Euros ... but hey they are "Boxers" so I'll take it. 

Then "seeing eye dogs" came on my horizon and I found that, to no ones surprise by and large "Labs and Goldens" have supplanted, WL GSD's in those jobs. But ... I was surprised to learn that WL GSD's are "still" being breed by some "Trainers and Breeders" specifically to continue to do that job also! 

It does take a "special" owner and "special" WL GSD's to do "that" job Seeing Eye/Service Dog, but they are still out there. There was a "PSA" on air a few years ago ... and it showed a Vet with a "Seeing Eye" GSD ... I was stunned and impressed! 

So "WL GSD" are out there and "still" doing the service dog thing ... you just gotta dig deep to find them.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I have definitely seen a change in the breed over the last 2yrs I've owned them.. Discernment skills seemed to have lessened in the by and large.. However, while I have only owned one GSD that needed to be watched and had environmental issues with loud noises, and the rest have had good skills in every area I've needed them to, I have also been one to train and socialize... But seeing the difference in what was 25yrs ago to now, you just expected to buy what seems to have to be hunted for by prospective buyers endlessly today: discernment, health, drive etc... I've been lucky I guess, or I just instinctively knew (and a lot of prayer) to go to breeders that bred for what I wanted to do... 

All in all, I know the GSD's we remember and long to see as the norm are out there.. I do think it there is a distinct difference between sport and real life... Although the expectations of health, discernment, drive, intelligence etc is probably equal.. But sport is hard placed to emulate real life pressures and scenarios.. But a balanced temperament and healthy body should be able to do both.. My two cents, lol


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well I recently started hearing this "hectic in drive" term and my immediate thing was ah ha! THAT'S what I don't like about her, she is hectic, that is absolutely the perfect word for her. Of course I don't really know what that term means to people more experienced than me.

Despite how phenomenal she is I had big misgivings about getting another wl dog and ultimately I didn't. There are things I don't like about my new dog, I guess no dog is perfect. He is young and he and I have a long way to go yet so I just can't compare them apples to apples. Most of the time I honestly prefer him to her. So far the things I don't like about him are easier to deal wth than the things I don't like about her. I guess a couple years from now I will know what I really think of them compared to each other.

Honestly, my old yellow dog about blows them both out of the water. He was everything, fearless, friendly, trustworthy, absolutely mellow and chill, absolutely willing a d happy to participate in anything, and crap your pants scary if he felt someone threatened me or my kids and he too never let loose on anyone who wasn't really a threat or that he didn't have good reason. Of course, he did like to kill stuff. Like, really, really liked to kill stuff. So that was a bummer lol


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Guess I am lucky. I train with K9 handlers that also bring dogs in for the PD and then breeders/brokers that supply dogs to K9 departments on a regular basis. I, myself, have supplied SAR, detection and one SD (I have a nice young male right now that is very suitable) and all of us also do IPO. The dogs are out there, though not as common as they once were, unfortunately, and the really good dogs are too expensive for most working (non sport) venues. The doom and gloom does get tiring. I agree with Cliff about too many breeders not paying attention to balance and maintaining a utilitarian working dog. I agree with him on many things.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have been lucky to have two dogs from breeders that have focus on their program for more than one generation. They don't just look at a litter as a sales point, but as having a puppy for future breeding stock. 
Not all pups would or will be able to match the criteria, yet these breeders do have foresight and knowledge of pedigrees to at least bring dogs into the world that are fairly balanced and versatile. 
I also have a dog from a breeder that just put two dogs together to make puppies. It is night and day the difference in temperament, health and versatility in the dogs I have.
I am on a local FB page and no longer preach, but see over and over and over the way people are basically ruining the breed. First it is the breeders, then it is the way the training is going. I am still fairly a newbie when it comes to knowing dogs, but I do know that there are far less good breeders local to me than the ones I would ever suggest or purchase a puppy from.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Bitework says alot about the dog if you know what your looking at. If your dog lacks the basic nerve to do it then you shouldn't breed him or her.
> I see a ton of GSD that would make good service dogs. Generally not the ones you want to breed to but the inevitable average pups that make up large parts of many litters. Breeding GSD to be service dogs will just be an excuse to produce more weak nerve bags.


Your last sentence makes it clear you understand NOTHING about service dogs and the work they do.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Your last sentence makes it clear you understand NOTHING about service dogs and the work they do.



And, sadly, it almost appears to be the exception to find a GSD that can be a good service dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I have not read very many of the posts. 

OP in a lot of ways I agree with you. I've said for a long while now that people aren't testing their dogs enough. Remember my threads http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...breeders-since-no-dog-perfect-how-do-you.html
and
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...show-weakness-bad-nerve-still-earn-title.html

I've been saying people aren't truly testing their dogs. I agree with some of the others that the "Top" scoring dogs are often some the ones I like the least. Then I look at the focus of a lot of sports and what it's really testing. In most cases it's not the dog/genetics. Lately when looking at upcoming litters from breeders all I see is a list of the dogs accomplishments and scores. Nothing about the dogs actual drives and temperament. That alone tells me what their focus is. Or on the flip side, you get the "these dogs are suitable for LE.PPD. top sport, family pet, SD, agility and so on" from people who have probably never seen what it truly takes for some of these things. 

I don't consider myself a breeder yet. My first litter is only 9 weeks old. What I can tell you, is that yes, I have washed dogs. I've handled a decent number of dogs who I have never listed, and I've decoyed a lot more from multiple venues including LE. I know what I look. I thoroughly test my dogs. No trial fields are not enough. The way I look at it is, a title is only a validation of my training. Not a test of my dogs. I agree that things like hunt drive are being lost. Not enough people care about it. As long as the dog can pass that phase is all that matters. For me. that's not enough. 

This is all I have at this point as I'm running off very little sleep, and am very scatter brained at this point.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Slamdunc said:


> I wonder what you do test and select potential service dog candidates? What is your evaluation process like? How much time do you spend testing dogs?


Months and months and months is spent testing and evaluating. From puppyhood (if he animal is obtained as a little) until 12-18 months of age (the dog should be capable of working by age 2). Evaluation of the dog consists of looking at how it handles environmental stress, how it adapts to and takes on new information.

The standard fare, such as texture sensitivity (can the dog walk across slick floors? Shiny floors? Highly textured floors? Open grating?), interaction with the public (is the dog an animal that is open to interaction, but does not seek it? Is it too reactive to people passing by, whether that is seeking attention or shrinking away?), and settling in new environments (can the dog lay quietly and fall asleep, or is it constantly on alert and watching everything? Is it capable of naturally relaxing, or must it be taught?).

The washout rate for owner trained dogs is approximately 80%. The washout rate for program dogs is 50-60%.

The kind of work the dog will be doing also matters when you are evaluating an animal. A dog that does not respond super readily to outside stimuli (namely, obnoxious people) is useful as a guide, but it's practically useless as a hearing ear dog. Size is immaterial to an alert dog, but is important for a mobility dog.

A dog can wash out of one venue of work, but be well suited to another.



> I went to test potential dual purpose Patrol Dogs on Thursday, it took 5 1/2 - 6 hours to test 6 dogs. I am pretty thorough when testing and nerve, temperament and environmental strength are big on my list. I saw a super nice 12 month old female GSD that was social, friendly, outgoing and had strong nerves. The dog handled pressure and also had high prey and toy drive. Although, this dog would bite it had to be pushed. I was close on selecting this dog, I really liked her and she could be a service dog or a decent patrol / great narcotics dog.


Unfortunately, it takes more than a few hours to evaluate a potential service dogs (that's why programs have puppy raisers). I wish it only took a few hours :-/ Would save a lot of frustration and heartache.



> You said:
> *I cannot find a dog that can do the work I need it to do, and I believe that is in part because, contrary to what some die hard IPOers may believe, they've created specialist animals just as much as show line people have done.
> 
> Dogs that are too high in prey with low thresholds...impossible to live with, want to chase every blasted thing that moves, OCD issues.
> ...


IPO is a sport. People are breeding for high point dogs and flocking to podium animals for stud service. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. People blame plenty on show lines only being bred for motion. The same applies here.



> Unfortunately, many American bred dogs and ASL dogs fall into the category of too reactive and too sharp.


Yup. 



> Poor breeding creates dogs that lack the nerve strength to deal with environmental stimulus. Anytime you breed for a certain trait, color, look or structure you will have issues because it is not breeding for the total dog. I'm sure you have seen many SL "champions" or Grand Champions that are complete spooks. Should these dogs really be promoted and bred too?


There's a reason it took almost a decade and a half for me to breed a litter. There's a reason I repeated my first litter, and a reason I didn't breed to an American dog for my bitch's last.




> I'm thinking that you must be starting with puppies for your service dog.


Two were puppies (first and fourth), the 2nd and 3rd were adults.



> Honestly, washing out 4 dogs is a lot. I'm thinking there must be a disconnect in your evaluation process or training.


Yup. It's a lot. Also not a surprise. Welcome to service dogs. Washing out a crosseyed dog with bilateral DJD that is OCD with lights, screams, and eats AN ENTIRE DECK, is not a disconnect. Washing out a dog that refuses to remain contained (broke several different crates) and nearly takes out the eye of another dog in the home is not a disconnect. I shouldn't need a reinforced metal box to hold my *service dog*. Washing out a dog that tries to bite me in the face (with no known trigger) is not a disconnect. Washing out a dog that hackles every time you take him into a new environment and goes into extreme avoidance when trying to vest him is not a disconnect.




> It shouldn't be that difficult to find a dog for service work.


Shouldn't be, but is



> I realize that you are a conformation breeder which does put you into that 'specialty" breeding category, you are not breeding for a "utilitarian working animal" either.


If you believe this, then you haven't been paying attention to me or my goals.



> I see plenty of young GSD's that could cut it as service dogs, they often are not the dogs that I would select as Patrol dogs but are great single purpose dogs.


How many SDs have you worked with? Not known of, but worked with? It's an honest question.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

So in keeping with the theme of the OP and a lot of other posters since. What do we do to test our dogs if IPO is more of a title of training and not a test of the actual dog. How does one prove their dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> So in keeping with the theme of the OP and a lot of other posters since. What do we do to test our dogs if IPO is more of a title of training and not a test of the actual dog. How does one prove their dog.



My two cents. I think some sports do a better job at focusing on genetics rather than training. But most importantly it comes down to breeders. No sport with a fixed set of rules is going to perfectly test everything about your dog. I can name a hundred dogs that look great on a trial field but would crap themselves in other situations. Schutzhund was never designed to be the end all be all. Just a test, a start. Now, people seem to take IPO as the only form of achievement and nothing else on the planet matters.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My male sired a litter, and it wasn't sport dog oriented as far as breeding goals went. The breeder has produced many service dogs/SAR dogs over several generations. The bitch is certified in SAR. 
Yet for this particular breeding, they wanted a more serious dog that was titled in IPO. 
They wanted a thinker, with good hunt drive and fight drive was not a deterrent.

I was honored to have my dog chosen(per my dogs breeder contact/recommendation)

The litter was very consistent in temperament and size. There was only one female, however. 
I follow the progress of this breeding match and the dogs are doing very well. Hunt drive and biddability is evident. At a year old there are a few doing service work(one is already in service for a disabled vet), two are training in SAR and one is nosework titled. I think the breeder was spot on in the goals for the breeding. Conformation was very high on the list for the sire, even though my dog is somewhat over the standard, he is balanced and agile/athletic.
There are no dogs in the litter doing IPO, yet if they were introduced to bitework, I bet they'd turn on with ease. It is genetic. 

This type of dog may not be what sport people seek out, but the versatility and temperament is evident in this particular litter. That said, I am still waiting for those to get prelims done, yet the people that have these pups aren't concerned about hips and elbows at this time. 
Not all breeders breed for sport, but they at least should have something other than pet homes as goals. I worry when the 'pet home' is pushed in a breeding or litter announcement. All dogs bred should be able to be placed in a pet home, in the least.
I think any good breeder of whatever line should strive for whatever is asked of a puppy. But the training should be fair, and the pup should not be pushed as a piece of equipment to please a human. I see dogs doing flyball, disc competitions and I cringe because the body is pretty fragile. It may look great at two, but at 6 the dog is dragging butt from the extreme sport that many GSD's are not cut out for.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I will add this:
"That word "sport" always means competition for the highest, that is true, but this competition reaches its high-water mark in "exhibitions" which, just because they demand no real capabilities lead people only too easily astray..."- Capt. Max Stephanitz


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I think with any breed, breeding is often done with the high winning dogs, be it in conformation, IPO, herding or any other sport done. If there is a fault in something with the dog, it is done with the determination that it can be fixed in the next generation. I think sometimes they don't actually take in the aspect of the whole dog in the goal they have in mind which is the next dog to have in the running. And often the next generation is bred with the same expectations of fixing something with the next generation, thus not always 'fixing' the problem they have seen. This is not just with GSDs, but with all breeds.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

That is a completely accurate assessment


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol they have labs doing it. As long as the dog has decent environmentals, is reasonably social and high thresholds he can do that work. Plenty of pups fit that bill.
I have one sitting in my kennel now.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol they have labs doing it. As long as the dog has decent environmentals, is reasonably social and high thresholds he can do that work. Plenty of pups fit that bill.
> I have one sitting in my kennel now.



Do the work of a service dog? Have you trained any service dogs to know that? Often it's not until the dog has matured that you know if the dog can work as a service dog. I would not begin to say I know a dog can do IPO because I have never trained one to do it. Unless you can say the same, I'd be hesitant to think you can identify a dog that can be a service dog. Decent environmentals, reasonable social and high thresholds do not make a service dog. There's quite a bit more to it than that.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

To have a dog truly function as a service dog takes good nerve. Weak nerve will show and will flunk earlier on, sure some dogs who aren't as strong may show decently at first but service work really wears on a dog long-term mentally and will break down a weaker dog. I know several dogs who started off strong but the farther they got into it, the worse they got until they eventually had to be washed. My last SD was one of those, he would still work despite beginning to stress, he internalized it to the point where he got stomach ulcers, as soon as I retired him the issues totally went away. A service dog will be exposed to situations many dogs will never see, things that most people not even think to test their dogs with. Service work will expose your dogs' weak points.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

SDs need to deal with randos running up and hugging them. They need to constantly be on the look out for things like errant shopping carts and idiots not paying attention to where they are going. They need to be able to use escalators in a pinch (escalators are not ideal, elevators whenever possible, and stairs before that). and be able to deal with being jostled about on busy shopping days.

They need to be able to squeeze themselves into ridiculously small spaces and go to sleep amidst the various smells of food and differing levels of noise. They cannot be sensitive to lights, textures, or sounds.

If it is a job that requires "intelligent disobedience", the dog must have the wherewithal to INSIST that the handler is WRONG and they need to stop trying to do whatever it is they're trying to do. They need to be socially open enough to allow an unconscious handler to be taken by strangers. They need to ignore other dogs that yap at them, try to go after them, or otherwise impede their work, and they need to do it WITHOUT prompting.

It's not an easy job. You know what makes it look easy? A sound dog that is trained well. Those are hard to come by for the work that has been requested.

In the most serious access challenge I ever had, my friend Lindsay and her SD, Grady, were out with Strauss and me. The altercation involved 5 people and two dogs. Our dogs who disliked each other but needed to look out for us focused on US while Lindsay (because I was useless) tried to settle the situation.

In the case of a GSD SD, that doesn't mean I want a dog that doesn't want to bite. It just means I want a dog that doesn't have biting as its first inclination. My dog was required to lay in silence while somebody screamed at me and tried to invade my space. The correct response for a service dog is to do nothing but wait.

I want a dog that discerns, not a dog that is reactionary. And while I can TEACH the dog not to be reactionary, if that component is genetically there, it is still something I need to be aware of.

Nerve strength is paramount in a good service dog. You can't pick a random animal and go "He can do it!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WOW this got crazy fast?? Round two I guess?? But lots of great input from "Service dog Trainers/Owners ... I was surprised that WL GSD were still, being bred to do this job??? Special dogs and owners required ... Labs and Goldens are just easier to deal with.

And no not any run of the mill, dare I say top level WL GSD can do that job but "apparently" some "WL GSD's" still do. Still if I were a newbie I'd be kinda stunned .. I've not seen another board where members seem to just "drive that bus" over there chosen breed??

On Boxerforum our disagreements are on whether or not the Euros are indeed "Goofy at all??" Just a slight interlude ... carry on all.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

When breeders stop breeding for what they like, and start breeding for what they NEED, the breed will return to its versatility. 
When breeders are experienced in working the dog in one of two areas ( sch or herding ) the breed will return to it's versatility 
When breeders are knowledgeable about bloodlines/dogs to include their recessive/dominant traits, the breed will return to its versatility
When breeders stop breeding FOR shows, sport, or pets, the breed will return to its versatility
When breeders stop breeding for the purpose that every dog in litter is capable of doing one specialized thing,the breed will return to its versatility 
The above is symptomatic of the majority of breeders I see today. All of these things have led to a decline in the breed in my honest opinion.
The biggest problem with the breed today is the lack of integrity of breeders to the BREED rather then themselves.....plain and simple!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I don't disagree with you.

I have show lines. The assumption is that I breed for show. That is incorrect. I enjoy showing and will never pretend I don't. It is something I am good at and is a hobby that makes me happy. My breeding decisions are not based on what we do in the show ring. When it comes to real evaluation, I prefer looking at what my dogs are doing in the pasture (and in every day life).

I have plans to cross into working lines (and people I talk to in order to make that cross as safely as possible). I have people approaching me for service dog prospects. I have been honest when placing my older animals and telling people outright that the dog(s) I may have available are not suited for service work presently.

I'm on my first generation of breeding. I am not where I want to be. If we could all get there in one generation, breeding wouldn't be a necessity very often. I want dogs that can do more than one thing. I don't want specialists.

I greatly favor homes that want to "try all the things" with a puppy they get from me over homes that only want to do a single thing with them. Explore. See what your dog can do. It's just as good for me and my knowledge as it is for you and your dog. Show me what I have, because I can't keep everything.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jackie, I try to never assume anything...lol, but I make assessments on what people do and present.
I think many people don't realize subconsciously how much their likes affect their decisions. 
Case in point.....about 10 years ago the GSL dogs did so bad in performance at the Seiger show, the SV and like breeders proclaimed that they needed to rejuvenate the temperament by only breeding the best tempered dogs and not the weak ones. What they meant was the best tempered German Showlines to improve the temperament.
I wrote on another forum back then, that you folks are deluding yourself because the best tempered GSL dogs carries the SAME genetics as the weak tempered Showline dogs. They are all first cousins by genetics! Well, it's a decade later and these lines are AT best the same and many say they are still declining!
My point is that they were not going to go away from that black and red color that dug them in the hole in the first place. They need genetic diversity and there is none in the GSL for them to improve the temperament, and bringing in sables, bicolors or blacks would have changed the black and red paradigm.
The problem with specialty breeding is that it is very difficult to breed back to the middle AND still be engaged in the specialty unless winning in the specialty is not as important as the direction you are seeking. In other words, to move in the right direction with breeding choices, inadvertently means selecting genetics that have little appeal to the specialty judges.( and this is show and sport)
The second thing is that to my way of thinking, any reputable breeding program MUST be based on a female line that is ROCK solid in nerve from both sides of the dam's pedigree. Now if that female is show quality or sport quality in addition, I think you have a start as long as the direction you pursue never compromises on the nervebase! That is next to impossible to do in the show world and becoming also elusive in the sport world as we become captivated by extreme drives and movement to compete in the these worlds. I can't remember the last time I have seen a nice show specimen that was rock solid in nerves both phenotype and genotype!!!
So, I understand your intent, but from my knowledge of breeding I just don't see how to accomplish both:crying:.
I understand both the show world and sport world in terms of love, commitment and addiction.....but I really believe you can't serve two masters....


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> So, I understand your intent, but from my knowledge of breeding I just don't see how to accomplish both


Maybe I can't.

But I'll try anyway.

Strauss probably spoiled me. And he wasn't pure anything, in terms of his lines. It's a shame when the best dog you've ever had...is the first one you ever had.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

My favorite dog in my house right now is one that is routinely ignored in the show ring.

And if I have to choose between work and show for the GSD, I'll choose work, and get myself a Cardi to show *shrugs*

That said, I've been eating a giant bitter burger as of late, so, it's whatever I suppose.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Xeph,
I haven't trained any SD's from start to finish yet. Years ago I did some training with one of the CCI guys who also did SchH at the time. Recently, a friend started a company training service dogs for veterans with PTSD and mobility issues. He has asked me to partner with him and begin training SD's. He has placed a few dogs already. He has a very unique approach as the dogs he supplies are also field hunting dog trained. He feels that many veterans may also want to hunt and can use a retriever or a pointer to get the guys back outside and active. He has done this and it is a well accepted idea for him. I may get involved this year and start training. There is some cross over between hunting dog training and SD training, believe it or not. I have experience training / working dogs is several venues, but neither of those. He is anxious for me to come aboard, honestly I am not sure if it is something that I want to delve into. Training a service dog requires a very special person with a very unique set of skills.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I may have read that last sentence in Liam neeson's voice.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I may have read that last sentence in Liam neeson's voice.


That was funny!:smile2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LOL Liam Neeson


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

@Slamdunc, I do hope you decide to try it to see if it's something you enjoy. The rewards are amazing and it really changes the lives of the people who receive a dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> I understand both the show world and sport world in terms of love, commitment and addiction.....but I really believe you can't serve two masters....


:thumbup:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I am not sure I understand why....why you can not serve two masters. I knew lots of breeders with national champion goats. (that being conformation) who were also powerhouse milkers, which is their "work"

Might it take longer? Seems to me the bottom line is the motivation of the breeder


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Serious question. How much training is involved to milk a goat? I know nothing about goats.

Breeding dogs for show vs IPO and the training are very different and then there are service dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Cowboy.....cause you will love one and hate the other.
Folks, I don't mean serving show vs sport.....I mean show/sport vs balance!
If you love show you will place higher premium on movement than other facets...if you love sport, you will place a higher premium on drive than other facets, and thus the imbalance starts and temperament starts declining.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> Serious question. How much training is involved to milk a goat? I know nothing about goats.
> 
> Breeding dogs for show vs IPO and the training are very different and then there are service dogs.


Believe it or not if you are milking by hand it's not as easy as it seems lol. And way less so if the d*** goat won't cooperate and tries to kick over your milk pail on purpose. There are does who will hold back milk from you if they are also nursing kids and you will never know what she is really producing even on milk test because she can hear them in the next stall so she won't let you have it. 

But obviously there is a limit to the comparison. I'm just saying that at least in that instance there is such a thing as form and function occurring simultaneously. 

And furthermore there are high producing milk goats who are lazy primadonnas and won't get off their butts to go and forage in a field and they will literally starve themselves to death if you don't feed them posh alfalfa so if you want a pasture based system you have to also take into account the "temperament" so to speak of the goat.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> @Cowboy.....cause you will love one and hate the other.
> Folks, I don't mean serving show vs sport.....I mean show/sport vs balance!
> If you love show you will place higher premium on movement than other facets...if you love sport, you will place a higher premium on drive than other facets, and thus the imbalance starts and temperament starts declining.


I wonder if the biggest problem of all then isn't that due to our current society most german shepherds are not actually working jobs anymore. I would assume that in the beginning a lot more of them were actually working all day most days. Because I am assuming any of the extremes would either fail at or just be miserable working partners to the point that they would not be bred

Side note, can someone who knows please explain to me (if it can be explained) what hectic in drive means? Or link a video? I am curious


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> cliffson1 said:
> 
> 
> > @Cowboy.....cause you will love one and hate the other.
> ...


A quick explanation since I'm at work. Drive is generally the ability to focus on a specific task for long piersods of time. Energy can also come into play here. Hectic behavior can sometimes look like high drive however the dog loses its ability to think and focus. There is more to it than that, but in a nutshell...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

mycobraracr said:


> A quick explanation since I'm at work. Drive is generally the ability to focus on a specific task for long piersods of time. Energy can also come into play here. Hectic behavior can sometimes look like high drive however the dog loses its ability to think and focus. There is more to it than that, but in a nutshell...


LOL loses ability to think or focus, yep, that's my girl!!! I guess I will never know if it is a training issue or just her genetics. I certainly didn't know there was such a thing as "capping" when she was young, so...

Her work as a service dog she is quiet and serious as a mouse.

But in any adrenalized situation sometimes she just mentally combusts, she totally unravels.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

@Cowboysgirl

Glad I don't have goats. My two working line GSDs are way more mellow than those goats appear to be.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LOL Jack's Dad. Let me tell you. If you don't passionately love the goats, you will passionately hate them. I am not sure there I an in between


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> And furthermore there are high producing milk goats who are lazy primadonnas and won't get off their butts to go and forage in a field and they will literally starve themselves to death if you don't feed them posh alfalfa so if you want a pasture based system you have to also take into account the "temperament" so to speak of the goat.


Well, it's not a "Goat" thread but "that" is quite interesting!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> A quick explanation since I'm at work. Drive is generally the ability to focus on a specific task for long periods of time. Energy can also come into play here. Hectic behavior can sometimes look like high drive however the dog loses its ability to think and focus. There is more to it than that, but in a nutshell...


Hmmm yet again "interesting" that kinda sorta describes a "typical Boxer." 

I just saw it as "lack of focus" and rolled with it. AL anyway don't know about the "Euro's. Live and learn ... thanks.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Actually there are dogs with tons of drive to work, but at some point their nerve strength is not good enough to maintain that level of drive and focus for the drive and they implode. You can see this is sport dogs too. The ones that get diarrhea when they compete, travel or are put through the stress needed to reach the podium. 

They had a thread in a group on FB where someone asked how people deal with digestive upsets when traveling with their dogs to national events. In my head all I could think of to say was get a better dog. My old girl Vala as been all over this country with me, flown to WA state to be bred and then to Germany. After 12 hours in a crate, in the belly of an airplane, handled by a bunch of unknown people, she came out of the crate, did her thing (no diarrhea), scratched off and then climbed into a strange crate in a strange car. THAT is nerve strength. Too many accept less if they can win.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Actually there are dogs with tons of drive to work, but at some point their nerve strength is not good enough to maintain that level of drive and focus for the drive and they implode. You can see this is sport dogs too. The ones that get diarrhea when they compete, travel or are put through the stress needed to reach the podium.
> 
> They had a thread in a group on FB where someone asked how people deal with digestive upsets when traveling with their dogs to national events. In my head all I could think of to say was get a better dog. My old girl Vala as been all over this country with me, flown to WA state to be bred and then to Germany. After 12 hours in a crate, in the belly of an airplane, handled by a bunch of unknown people, she came out of the crate, did her thing (no diarrhea), scratched off and then climbed into a strange crate in a strange car. THAT is nerve strength. Too many accept less if they can win.



This is exactly why we took Kimber and Xander to AK with us. We travel all over for trials and seminars, but I hadn't flown with the dogs. So we took them to see how they'd handle it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I actually wasn't surprised by how well she did. I think you can see it just in how they handle travel itself when they have to potty some place new or sleep in the truck or hang in a hotel. Flying to WA was probably harder on Vala since I wasn't there, but she was fine.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I don't know. On the outset I agree. I dog should not get stress diarrhea . A dog with better nerve would be indicated. 

But then I remember a good friend and mentors dog who responded to 3 international disasters, worked his heart out, never had a GI issue, gets BLOW OUT GI issue in NY for the Westminster KC dog show tribute. This dog was rock solid. Something stressed him that day. So not sure that's a good indicator of nerve strength. 

My own USAR dog, just doesn't poop a lot while traveling. But poos up a storm at home. Sometimes, with lots of work, its loose. 

I would be more worried about the dog that refuses to eat.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Actually there are dogs with tons of drive to work, but at some point their nerve strength is not good enough to maintain that level of drive and focus for the drive and they implode. You can see this is sport dogs too. The ones that get diarrhea when they compete, travel or are put through the stress needed to reach the podium.
> 
> They had a thread in a group on FB where someone asked how people deal with digestive upsets when traveling with their dogs to national events. In my head all I could think of to say was get a better dog. My old girl Vala as been all over this country with me, flown to WA state to be bred and then to Germany. After 12 hours in a crate, in the belly of an airplane, handled by a bunch of unknown people, she came out of the crate, did her thing (no diarrhea), scratched off and then climbed into a strange crate in a strange car. THAT is nerve strength. Too many accept less if they can win.


A dog with nerve strength like this could probably do any job asked of it.

Part of the problem IMO, is being #1 or the best seems to be all that counts these days. I would prefer a dog like you described alot more than some champion or highly titled IPO dog. I think most people would feel that way if they ever owned one. The push to win is sapping the nerve strength from this breed. 
I don't want most of the GSDs I see in public. they are too nervous and reactive, hyper and on and on.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I asked my father how these issues were in the **** dog world. Since he's owned and hunted **** dogs for 70 yrs he ought to know. First thing he said is if a dog isn't any good, the serious hunters don't pass the dog off to others. Let alone breed it. As far as pedigrees and breeding he said that he doesn't hunt the tournaments but he has owned dogs that have consistently out hunted championship dogs. He says that championships or titles should not be a free pass to breed any dog. I asked if he thought that after 3 generations the Genetics were washed out. He said yeah but he looks at two dogs when getting or breeding pups. The parents. 
Also said that there will always be back yard breeders who will breed crap and try and pass it off as quality. But with **** dogs you don't usually own one unless you hunt or work the dog so those guys don't last cause word travels quickly. Plus sell some hillbilly a junk **** dog it may not be a good scenario for you. 
So the answer according to him is breed quality dogs regardless of titles or pedigree. If a weak dog is limped to a title it shouldn't be bred. If a strong dog doesn't compete in sports it could still produce really good dogs but it should be proven somehow. And regardless of what direction the breed is heading a strong core group can keep the integrity alive even if main stream differs on opinion. Most everything goes through fads and changes. But a lot of times it comes back to the roots. Especially when the fads and changes all implode.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Cdxwood....**** dogs are nowhere near the third most popular dog in the world. **** dogs are not utility or versatile dogs in their work. **** dogs are more like Chesapeake Bay retreivers in that they are regional dogs bred for specific purpose.
Btw, I'm not disagreeing with your father on that formula working, I'm just saying the scope and function of this breed allows many other elements to be involved in breeding.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well my dog flew all over the country with me and never got stress diarrhea....she is the same dog no matter where she is, 100 percent. I drove down the east coast with her 6 months ago and would pull over at a truck stop tk feed her in the parkinglot with the big rigs going by....she is unfazed.

Her kryptonite was my step daughter who was a just a wreck, constant drama and fighting and yelling, zero control over her emotions. I would try to put the dog away somewhere if I knew the kid was going to blow. When the daughter was in treatment I stopped using my dog when we would visit the daughter. I didn't think it was fair to keep exposing her to it. One of the last treatments she was in, one night I spent 2 hours on the phone with her trying to convince her not to check herself out, but I had not put the dog away and she listened to it on speaker phone and when I hung up the dog vomited. 

I don't know what that says about my dog. I sometimes think this is where her uclers came from unless it was just diet. When she was working for me a lot, she was happy and calm and professional and also that was when she was the healthiest. 

But the worse my step daughter got, same with the poor dog despite my trying to protect her from it.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Cdxwood....**** dogs are nowhere near the third most popular dog in the world. **** dogs are not utility or versatile dogs in their work. **** dogs are more like Chesapeake Bay retreivers in that they are regional dogs bred for specific purpose.
> Btw, I'm not disagreeing with your father on that formula working, I'm just saying the scope and function of this breed allows many other elements to be involved in breeding.


It's a disadvantage for GSD'S to be a popular breed and deemed to be so versatile. everyone sees $$$$

Mals are banana crazy and they do well in police work. I wonder if police work was the same in 1900 as it is today if german shepherds would have been bred to be more like a mal.

How much has the demand of these dogs increased while the drives, nerves, etc... been diluted. Could an original GSD function in todays world as intended.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I can tell you that the GS of 45 years ago could function in LE today, though they were different in balance of drives. The training is different to some degree and the drives different to some degree....but I still provide dogs to LE that are basically like the dogs back then.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well my dog flew all over the country with me and never got stress diarrhea....she is the same dog no matter where she is, 100 percent. I drove down the east coast with her 6 months ago and would pull over at a truck stop tk feed her in the parkinglot with the big rigs going by....she is unfazed.
> 
> Her kryptonite was my step daughter who was a just a wreck, constant drama and fighting and yelling, zero control over her emotions. I would try to put the dog away somewhere if I knew the kid was going to blow. When the daughter was in treatment I stopped using my dog when we would visit the daughter. I didn't think it was fair to keep exposing her to it. One of the last treatments she was in, one night I spent 2 hours on the phone with her trying to convince her not to check herself out, but I had not put the dog away and she listened to it on speaker phone and when I hung up the dog vomited.
> 
> ...



Or could she have been reacting to YOUR stress when these things happened?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> I can tell you that the GS of 45 years ago could function in LE today, though they were different in balance of drives. The training is different to some degree and the drives different to some degree....but I still provide dogs to LE that are basically like the dogs back then.


Can you describe the differences in drives and the type of dogs you supply? The image I get of a lot of police dogs (ones I see at work) are very hectic.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Deb said:


> Or could she have been reacting to YOUR stress when these things happened?


Absolutely...unfortunately I never achieved a zen state where all that stuff could go on and I could keep from getting stressed. My best strategy was to put the dogs in their kennels with flute music on and let them back out when it was over


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The primary differences is the amount of prey drive that many GS have today in comparison to then. I was in military dog training center that had over 250 dogs and No malinois and the GS were not over the top in prey drive. They had moderate drives in prey but not the hyperactive drive. Also you have to understand that their was NOT specific working and show lines in Europe. You could not look at a dog and tell if it's was from show or working lines. There were no sport dogs then as Sch hadn't morphed into sport. There was no Mals dominating Sch or LE to prompt breeders to breed for comparable type dogs. You seldom saw a GS that had that worried look in their eyes. They weren't perfect but they WERE German Shepherds! People never even considered thinking of them as Labs or Goldens whose ears stood up. The dogs mostly had good mettle although to varying degrees and that tail tucked under stomach or dog that couldn't quit pacing and settling down were so infrequent that I don't remember ever seeing this until the show fads started on both sides of the pond. That is not to say that all GS were fearless, BUT the type of shyness or weak nerves you see today was very very infrequent. Just like the Doberman of today, ( 90%) is NOTHING is like the Dobes of 60s or 70s.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Problem is people who think they've got the best dog in the world. I cannot count all the people on facebook groups that are looking for a stud or bitch to breed they're dog with. Why, well cause they own 3 acres and the dog is smart enough to stay on the property. Or they're dog can carry really big sticks. Or my dog is such a natural protection dog that he barks and growls at everyone that comes around. Try and tell them its out of fear, Or that carrying big sticks, and staying on the property is a stupid reason to breed and everyone freaks. I usually just send them to these forums. Tell them there's a lot of really good dogs here. At least if they come on here they're the minority. Something about ignorant people backing other ignorant people that empowers them. 
Maybe early spay and neuter is a good thing. Get them snipped before they see how big of a stick they can carry.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> The primary differences is the amount of prey drive that many GS have today in comparison to then. I was in military dog training center that had over 250 dogs and No malinois and the GS were not over the top in prey drive. They had moderate drives in prey but not the hyperactive drive. Also you have to understand that their was NOT specific working and show lines in Europe. You could not look at a dog and tell if it's was from show or working lines. There were no sport dogs then as Sch hadn't morphed into sport. There was no Mals dominating Sch or LE to prompt breeders to breed for comparable type dogs. You seldom saw a GS that had that worried look in their eyes. They weren't perfect but they WERE German Shepherds! People never even considered thinking of them as Labs or Goldens whose ears stood up. The dogs mostly had good mettle although to varying degrees and that tail tucked under stomach or dog that couldn't quit pacing and settling down were so infrequent that I don't remember ever seeing this until the show fads started on both sides of the pond. That is not to say that all GS were fearless, BUT the type of shyness or weak nerves you see today was very very infrequent. Just like the Doberman of today, ( 90%) is NOTHING is like the Dobes of 60s or 70s.


I understand what you are saying. But it seems that it's not just the high drive dogs that are the issue. If you look at the average owner, they want a lab personality in a gsd body. How many people do you see saying my dog barks at people walking in, or overeacts and have to "fix" or send the dog to place because it growled when a guest walked over and tried to pet it? They want a dog that loves everyone and doesn't have half of the gsd temperament described.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> Problem is people who think they've got the best dog in the world. I cannot count all the people on facebook groups that are looking for a stud or bitch to breed they're dog with. Why, well cause they own 3 acres and the dog is smart enough to stay on the property. Or they're dog can carry really big sticks. Or my dog is such a natural protection dog that he barks and growls at everyone that comes around. Try and tell them its out of fear, Or that carrying big sticks, and staying on the property is a stupid reason to breed and everyone freaks. I usually just send them to these forums. Tell them there's a lot of really good dogs here. At least if they come on here they're the minority. Something about ignorant people backing other ignorant people that empowers them.
> Maybe early spay and neuter is a good thing. Get them snipped before they see how big of a stick they can carry.


One person in the local GSD fb page was bragging about the size of the dogs he just bred. Nothing about anything else but that. Today he announced that he just had 10 pups from the breeding. Ugh....and yea, his dogs run the property as the best reason he had for breeding. So many were commenting on wanting a German Sheppard. He'll sell them with ease because people are so clueless. Then in 3-6 months there will be threads about health, temperament from the puppy buyers.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> One person in the local GSD fb page was bragging about the size of the dogs he just bred. Nothing about anything else but that. Today he announced that he just had 10 pups from the breeding. Ugh....and yea, his dogs run the property as the best reason he had for breeding. So many were commenting on wanting a German Sheppard. He'll sell them with ease because people are so clueless. Then in 3-6 months there will be threads about health, temperament from the puppy buyers.


Yeah, it's a difficult thing to admit that you shouldn't breed a dog. Especially when you think the world of your pet like most people do. Maybe the best approach would be to push them to a club. Let them see what good German Shepherds are supposed to be like. I own two dogs on opposite ends of the spectrum.. So I can see it in my own home. But then again I have absolutely no interest in breeding regardless of the dog I owned. So maybe that makes it a bit easier to see. Idk.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Cloudpump....yes many folks do want that. 
That is another factor....consumer demand! In those days people acquired GS dogs for home protection, security, business protection, besides working uses. It was implied when you sought a GS that you were getting a dog that was a home/family protector....that's why this aspect is in the standard. I never had people in those days looking to get a GS for house/couch ornament.
Now society has changed with litigation for dog bites, noise ordinances, closer living, people treating dogs like people, etc; yet this does not absolve the reputable breeder of breeding for standard traits as opposed to the golden with standing ears. 
You see the issue isn't about breeding dogs that are hair trigger to bite, it's about balance and nerves.
Take the show world for instance, we understand that the traits to do LE work has been bred out, but somebody explain to me why SL breeders aren't a source for guide dogs and service dogs and SAR dogs. All of the SL dogs in world that ARE NOT show quality, why aren't these folks flocking to get these dogs for these venues??? They are moderate in drives....so why do you so seldom see them??? I mean I know why, but I want folks to think this out....now whatever the reason these folks aren't using these dogs(maybe lack of nerves) the bigger question is why would reputable breeders BREED these dogs!!! I mean would a reputable breeder breed a dog that has moderate to severe hip dyplasia....so why would a reputable breeder breed a dog that has moderate to severe lack of nerve strength. 
Because of ribbons, trophies, personal likes, ego, etc., yet these breeders are no more reputable than the dysplastic breeder because both are willing to overlook physical health or mental health at the expense of the breed. Is this really reputable????? This is what I mean the integrity of breeders! It's lacking when measured against the standard. 
Lastly, I do not have a problem with showing your dog, really!; but I would not compromise the integrity of the breed to win. I would revel in having a moderate correct dog that acted like a GS in and out the ring. I would not have to make excuses why my dog shies away from folks, loud noises, things flapping in the wind, etc. 
lastly, I see the sport world moving in a similar direction, but their saving grace to the drive addiction is that they have to place an emphasis on nerves too, so they can control the drives....still we are getting more and more to where the drive is exceeding the nerves and this is not good and these dogs shouldn't be bred either....even if with expert trainer they are podium dogs.


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