# Earthborn Holistic grain free formulas and puppies



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I know there has been recent discussion on this food and I know there are quite a few people here who feed these formulas to their puppy/puppies.

It's been discussed here in plenty of threads, so we know that there aren't many choices when it comes to grain free formulas for large breed puppies because of the calcium amounts, so I decided to do a little research. 

Ingredient wise, it looks like a good food, but they don't mention the max calcium percentage amount on their bags or their website for any of the Earthborn Primitive grain free formulas. 

I decided to email the company and see what they said. I got a response from one of their VP's of marketing and she came back with this response...

*"The nutritional analysis that we have on this food does not have the maxium levels of calcium/phosphorus. Sorry that we cannot supply you with this information."*

I'm not telling anyone to not feed their grain free formulas to their puppy, but keep in mind that the max calcium % is either unknown or, for whatever reason, they just don't want to tell me what it is. Just something to keep in mind if you decide to go with this brand with your puppy.


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## schroedes (Sep 10, 2010)

Thanks for checking that out. I almost just ordered that food for my pups but I couldn't find that info either. I found that one of their grain free formulas had around 2% calcium. I ended up going with Metric for now. Seem like a pretty good company.


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## schroedes (Sep 10, 2010)

Oops, I meant Merrick


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

When I contacted them...they gave me ratios of 1.63 for Primitive, 1.38 for Great Plaines & 1.36 for Ocean/Pacific(?).
*At least these are the numbers that stick in my head*....I know that I commented on the patios right after I had heard from the company, that's also when they told me the correct caloric count for the food...because the website was incorrect*.

I've been using this product for a few months now...and weaned 3 litters on it....everyone looks great, and I have nothing negative to say about the product.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I know it's expensive, but Orijen is really the only GRAIN FREE i'd ever give to a puppy. All of the other ones have too much calcium. 

Now for adult GSD's or other large breeds, there are plenty of good choices (earthborn holistic being one of them).


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

robinhuerta said:


> When I contacted them...they gave me ratios of 1.63 for Primitive, 1.38 for Great Plaines & 1.36 for Ocean/Pacific(?).
> *At least these are the numbers that stick in my head*....I know that I commented on the patios right after I had heard from the company, that's also when they told me the correct caloric count for the food...because the website was incorrect*.
> 
> I've been using this product for a few months now...and weaned 3 litters on it....everyone looks great, and I have nothing negative to say about the product.


Yeah... you came to mind because i know you've mentioned you feed earthborn grainfree to your puppies. 

About those ratios... based off what that earthborn rep said in her email and the wording they use on the website when it comes to calcium in their guaranteed analysis... "not less than"... i think those percentages are minimum amounts that they gave you, not max. 

I know it seems like a good product and it probably is... i'm just a little paranoid about feeding about feeding high calcium food to puppies, but that's me. I just started this thread to put this information out there.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Perhaps...I can't speak for the other person.....but I did ask her about it being the max amount and not the min amount....because I was considering the food as a primary switch here.
She did further comment...as a grain free food, they are one of the foods with a lower calcium ratio comparatively.
I'll still continue to feed the food because I am very happy with how all the dogs are doing.
Paul...you know that I'm no food guru, and I'm not "pro" this or "con" that.....Orijen is a good food, and I did use it for about 2 months....my pups/young dogs did not do well on it. They had "softer stools" than I would have liked and their weight was very inconsistent.....so it just didn't work for me.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Yeah... I'm not trying to say everyone should be on the Orijen bandwagon. Orijen is actually very overpriced, but I still feed it. The only reason I feed Orijen is because Natura was sold to P&G and I got my dogs off the Innova. I was a big Innova fan prior to the P&G takeover. 

I wish more companies would come out with grain frees that are suitable for large breed puppies... it seems like a wide open market since Orijen is so overpriced. It's just really the only one I'd feel comfortable feeding a puppy.

If you want to look further into it... pm me and I can give you the reps name and email that I spoke with if you're interested.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

thanks for this thread, you got my attention since I just switched to natural balance small bites potato and duck, grain free. Pup 11 weeks old is inhaling his food like they do, so the small bites are just for another month until he chews better. This food has been amazing since we got it last week. Skin cleared up, good stools and he is keeping it down. Large bites were tough to digest.

I would love to get to the bottom of this. Not a lot of good articles out on the web on this. It seems to be an unknown on the calcium maxs on most foods. Lots of forum discussions on different sites on this, hard to find facts.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

kr16 said:


> thanks for this thread, you got my attention since I just switched to natural balance small bites potato and duck, grain free. Pup 11 weeks old is inhaling his food like they do, so the small bites are just for another month until he chews better. This food has been amazing since we got it last week. Skin cleared up, good stools and he is keeping it down. Large bites were tough to digest.
> 
> I would love to get to the bottom of this. Not a lot of good articles out on the web on this. It seems to be an unknown on the calcium maxs on most foods. Lots of forum discussions on different sites on this, hard to find facts.


A lot of the companies will only list the minimum amounts on the bag.

One example of a grain free with good ingredients, but high max calcium is Wellness and their Core formulas. According to their website:



 Why is CORE Dog listed as appropriate for maintenance but CORE Cat is listed as all life-stages including cats and kittens?
 We feel very strongly about providing only proven nutrition to your dog. *Research has shown that large breed puppies should not be fed a diet that is over 1.3 &ndash 1.5% Calcium or they run a significant risk of developing bone abnormalities. If we listed our CORE Dog diets as suitable for all life stages, we would be irresponsible &ndash knowing inevitably that large breed puppies may be fed these diets (by no fault of their loving owners).* In contrast with the CORE Cat diet, there is no supporting evidence that kittens suffer any bone abnormalities from higher calcium levels. We still strived to maintain low mineral content in CORE Cat diet to reduce the occurrence of FLUTD.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

if we go by wellness, orijens content is to high ughhhh might have to try non grain free and see how he does.


Orijen Large puppy and puppy

Calcium (min./max.)1.5 % / 1.7 %

Orijen adult

Calcium (min./max.)1.4 % / 1.6 %


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Orijen is about as low as it gets when it comes to grain free. I don't know any other grain free formulas with a max % under 1.6%. I know Wellness says nothing above 1.5%, but I'm willing to take a risk with that extra .1%, but I don't want to go much more than that unless I had to. 

The wellness core max is 2%. I think TOTW (another fan favorite) is about 2.1%. 

A company should just come out with a quality grain free with a max % similar to Orijen and charge less.... they'd clean up.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

The Calcium percentage is not significant, the Calcium to Phosphorous ratio is. Even then the range is pretty big. Best to not make judgment/selection based on the percentage criteria alone but rather determine which food the puppy does good on.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Packen said:


> The Calcium percentage is not significant, the Calcium to Phosphorous ratio is. Even then the range is pretty big. Best to not make judgment/selection based on the percentage criteria alone but rather determine which food the puppy does good on.


Any evidence to back up that statement?

Calcium = bone growth. A puppy might like the food and has good stools with a good coat, but we all know how fast these large breeds grow in the first 8 months of life. A puppy might do well on the food, but how do you know if you're not doing damage during that growth period with these high calcium diets?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Lucy Dog said:


> Any evidence to back up that statement?
> 
> Calcium = bone growth. A puppy might like the food and has good stools with a good coat, but we all know how fast these large breeds grow in the first 8 months of life. A puppy might do well on the food, but how do you know if you're not doing damage during that growth period with these high calcium diets?


Only evidence I have is my pup (now a young adult)


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Packen said:


> Only evidence I have is my pup (now a young adult)


That's like saying smoking is safe because you've smoked for 40 years and you're perfectly healthy... Is smoking really safe because you never got sick?

Why even bother to make a statement like you don't need to pay attention to the calcium % if you have absolutely nothing to back it up other than your own young dog? :thinking:


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

All three Annamaet GF's can be fed to large breed puppies and they are 30/16's and very low ash. That is the issue when protein levels increases, ash='smineral's. 

Dr. Tim's has a GF coming out in a matter of weeks and I am guessing it is a real ALS as well.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Packen said:


> The Calcium percentage is not significant, the Calcium to Phosphorous ratio is. Even then the range is pretty big. Best to not make judgment/selection based on the percentage criteria alone but rather determine which food the puppy does good on.


I agree 100% the research on this is quite limited and seems to always revert to the weight of the puppy or dog. All the stuff on growth rates seems to always revert to weight as well. In my experience, injury and early stress on joints seem to be the thing to worry about.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Guess I am sticking with this food. I must say they answer every question I have asked since I was thinking about this brand. 

Our Potato & Duck formula contains 1.37% Calcium on an As-Fed Basis. This value is based on our typical analysis for the product. 

Sincerely,


*Heather Acuff, B.S.
*Animal Nutrition
Natural Balance Pet Foods, Inc.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

sable123 said:


> All three Annamaet GF's can be fed to large breed puppies and they are 30/16's and very low ash. That is the issue when protein levels increases, ash='smineral's.
> 
> Dr. Tim's has a GF coming out in a matter of weeks and I am guessing it is a real ALS as well.


Any idea what those exact % are for the annamet GF's? I can't find anything on their website regarding calcium or phosphorous. It does look like a good food though.

Yeah... From my understanding, that's the reason Orijen's able to keep their calcium levels so low... they use low ash chicken, turkey, etc. My guess is, a lot of these other GF's don't do that and that's why the calciums way up there and not right for puppies.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Any idea what those exact % are for the annamet GF's? I can't find anything on their website regarding calcium or phosphorous. It does look like a good food though.
> 
> Yeah... From my understanding, that's the reason Orijen's able to keep their calcium levels so low... they use low ash chicken, turkey, etc. My guess is, a lot of these other GF's don't do that and that's why the calciums way up there and not right for puppies.


 
I know that Salcha and Aqualuk have calcium on an average test basis of 1.5% or slightly below.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

sable123 said:


> I know that Salcha and Aqualuk have calcium on an average test basis of 1.5% or slightly below.


Looks like it's about on par with Orijen's prices. It's a little cheaper, but not a huge difference, looks similar to the Acana prices. 

Petfooddirect has it at $30 for 15 pounds and Orijen at $63 for 29.7 pounds.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Looks like it's about on par with Orijen's prices. It's a little cheaper, but not a huge difference, looks similar to the Acana prices.
> 
> Petfooddirect has it at $30 for 15 pounds and Orijen at $63 for 29.7 pounds.


 
I can buy it for $45 for 30lbs. Ultra I get for $38 for 40lbs.


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## ILOVEGSD (Oct 22, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> That's like saying smoking is safe because you've smoked for 40 years and you're perfectly healthy... Is smoking really safe because you never got sick?
> 
> Why even bother to make a statement like you don't need to pay attention to the calcium % if you have absolutely nothing to back it up other than your own young dog? :thinking:


Agreed. That evidence is such a joke, lol. No one in my family has been murdered, murder doesn't exist. hahaha


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