# Breeder making me feel like a bad parent



## peppsmom (Oct 4, 2014)

Hi everyone!

First time GSD puppy owner (had adult rescue dogs before) and I've been in for a ride! I wanted to run a few things by a group of people with experience, I hope this is the right area.

I have a gorgeous, wonderful 12 week old female pup I got from a "old-fashioned" "family dog" breeder, bred to be lower drive. I did a lot of research and couldn't find anything except people singing this breeder's praises, (including on a very popular facebook page with loads of testimonials). 

First thing, the breeder asked us to pick the puppy up at 7 weeks. I had always heard 8, so I did a little research and the internet seemed a mixed bag, but most said 7 was okay. We brought her into a family with 2 cats, 2 adults, no kids, large-fenced yard.

We have 3 repeating "issues" that are making me feel like a bad parent, and I'd LOVE some thoughts from other people.

The issues are a) behavior b) poo and c) size/weight. I'll list out some issue details, and then give more details as to her routine at the bottom. 

A) BEHAVIOR: Day two of our puppy ownership and the mouthing began in full-force. We had a two day car ride, so we figured she was just wound up and tried to pull over more to run and play. Now we're at week 12, and while the mouthing is seems to be getting a little better, it was AWFUL at week 8 and I emailed the breeder. The response I got back was "our puppies *don't *bite"-- the implication being _I_ had screwed her up. This hurt my feelings, but I tried her advice (a tap on the nose and a noise) which only riled the puppy up further...(she plays very aggressive and roughly) so I ended up doing more redirection, "being a tree", yelping, training "nice kisses"-- ignoring her-- the works. It's a bit better except a few times a day where she still gets crazy. But the breeder just kept insisting that "her puppies don't do that" and that they're "gentle" and I must be doing something wrong, which really made me feel terrible. She also really chases the cats and tries to jump on them and barks and such, to which I got a " You need to protect the puppy from the cats, not visa versa" Tell that to my cats!

B) POO: We have had SO MANY poo problems from the beginning! Puppy has been on and off pudding poos with lots of post-poo straining, with 2 incidents of true diarrhea between week 7 and now (week 12). To spare you the billions of tiny details, she is being fed premium food, we've added pumpkin, we've done on and off chicken and rice, we've added a ProBios supplement, we've seen the vet 3 times (no parvo, 1 round deworming last week, 2 rounds of metrondizale, fecals look fine), we've increased and decreased food to test if was over/under feeding, etc. No treats anymore except boiled chicken pieces. Breeder says when I ask for advice? "All our puppies are healthy with healthy poo, no allergies, no issues, ever." o_0 She has a great appetite, and does not "behave sick" at all. 

c) SIZE: Puppy seems to be of a healthy weight (can feel ribs, tummy lifts, but still has a little belly fat, etc, and vet seemed to think she was a healthy weight). She's 12 weeks and 27 or 28 pounds. Breeder says: "All our puppies are around 35 pounds (including females), and she was the same weight as the rest when you picked her up, so yours is behind the curve." So now I'm all worried that she's malnourished or behind the curve and I just feel terrible!


So, I feel like a terrible parent, and the thing is, I don't know what else I could be doing at this point. My partner works from home, so she's had lots of attention and training. Here's more about us and her lifestyle thus far:

-She's done great on crate training and average/well on potty training. 

-When not too terribly distracted, she does great on sit, lay down, rollover, recall, nice kisses, go get it, bring it back, and drop it (sometimes). She's bad at recall when distracted, but she's a puppy, right? 

-She has tons of toys. We did raw marrow bones and stuffed kongs too, but after all the poo trouble now we're just doing elk antlers. We play tug, ball, run around and play with her all the time.

-She gets two (at least) nice long walks per day, sometimes three. She isn't very good on her leash/harness. Lots of times she refuses to budge and just lays down. if we really pull her for a bit she'll usually get going and then walks fine the rest of the walk...its just getting started that is miserable!

-She does great with other dogs and puppies and people. We've been going to a puppy kindergarten class with 10 other puppies that have all proved they have 2nd round vaccines at least. 

-The biting is on and off really bad! Blood drawing, ripping pants, tearing about like a wild thing, not listening. We've tried stopping, toys, redirection, 30 second-2 min time outs in a different puppy-proofed room, little nose pops, requesting "nice kisses"-- and I think we're slowly getting better..but still really hard biting when she gets wound up.

-She like NEVER lays down and relaxes with us, which is tough because even when she's exhausted from puppy playtime she'll just go and go and go til you can tell she's crazy with exhaustion, so we have to crate her or put her in another room to make her nap, but it stinks cause we'd love to have her just nap at our feet you know? We could certainly never cuddle her (like near our faces or lay down next to her EVER) or we'd get nipped hard. Maybe when she first wakes up in the middle of the night for like... 2 minutes before she wakes up properly. 

-The poo thing is driving me CRAZY! She makes little pudding piles, and strains after and its the saddest thing. We might get a log or two in there, and then back to pudding. Vet seems mystified. I'm mystified!


So, am I a bad parent? The breeder is making me feel awful, and on one hand I feel like she has set unrealistic expectations, but on the other hand, her facebook pages seems full of people talking about how gentle and perfect their puppy is (nice to babies, gawd I couldn't imagine my pup around a baby!) So what gives? Despite my best efforts, have I created a malnourished, ill, under-sized naughty puppy? Or is the breeder not giving me a fair shake? 

Thanks for reading and your help in advance!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

You are not a bad owner. 

Your pup sounds like a normal GSD puppy. 

Use the crate liberally. When they get over tired they get stupid and throw tantrums and bit worse and are monsters. Put her in the grate for a while to take a nap. She is a baby, when she gets older she will settle next to you, right now she needs a bit if forced rest. 

As for the poop, see if your vet will send a fecal culture. She may have a bad bacteria. He puppy food may be too rich, switch to an "all life stages" or adult food and see if that helps. Feed her more frequently is smaller amounts. 

The biting, yeah. They do that. Nothing works right away. Keep doing what you are doing. Keep a leash on her, if she gets too bitey and redirection does not work, put her in the crate for a bit. Yelling/yelping can stimulate them more and cause more biting.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would get a fecal to rule out worms. Over feeding can cause icky poop and so csn a food that is to rich . Other then that you have a normal pup that felt comfortable with you almost immediately. It usually takes more then a day for the biting to start


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Holy MOLLY!!! I thought MY breeder was GOOD at being consistent in producing puppies that fall within a certain criteria, but your breeder is amazing!!! NEVER heard of one that had 100% uniform puppies in behaviour, health and growth rate. Must have some magic touch that is being kept a secret from all the other GSD breeders. 

First, RELAX!!! No way any of this is your fault, and geez I'd like to meet this breeder who produces nothing but perfect dogs with no drive, no health issues, and standarized size and growth rate. 

I think that you just got a pup with more energy and more drive than what the breeder is used to. Sounds like a pretty normal GSD puppy to me, and one that people who are looking for active dogs with drive would absolutely love to have - but I understand that you were hoping for something quieter and lower key. 

I don't know what to suggest about the runny poops - might just take some tweaking to find what works for your pup. Though a good breeder woudn't make the ludicrous claim that ALL her pups are PERFECT and it MUST be you, LOL. Breeders who are confident and comfortable with their own breeding program will actually try and HELP instead of blame. 

Weight. Congrats for having a normal pup! Looks like the poop issues aren't really serious health issues if she looks fine. All pups are different, and develop to the potential of their genetics. Your pup I guess was just insistent on inheriting the more normal working dog genes of energy, drive, and average size. 

At this point, if you feel that this puppy is NOT what you enlisted for, and don't feel that it will be a good fit into your household and family, you may want to make the decision to return it. Though I have a gut feeling that you are pretty much attached to the little devil by now, and will want to keep it. There is no right/wrong decision here. It has to be a decision that you feel will be best for the pup and for you. 

Wanting the pup to be something that he is not is not fair to the pup. Keeping a puppy that is just too much for you and your family many not be fair for you and the family. 

So if you decide to keep the pup, you will have to learn how to handle, work and train, contain and enjoy and appreciate a dog with more energy and drive than you were initially planning on. 

Quick advice on biting - redirect! Always have toys and tugs at hand, all over the place. When puppy gets hyper and tries to bite, stuff a tuggy toy in his mouth and play tug!!! Pup will learn that the right way to interact with a human is with a toy - but it will take time!! Lots of repetitions. Biting usually abates after they are done teething, around six months of age. So along with the tugs and toys, make sure you all have a lot of patience! 

Do NOT hit your pup on the muzzle! We just recently had a couple of stories from people who disciplined their pups by hitting them on the muzzle, and now as adults, when someone reaches to pet the dog, the dog snaps at the hand, thinking that the person is going to hit them. 

I just wanted to say that you are NOT a bad parent. Coming here and asking for advice because you are upset proves that you care and want to do the right thing. The main take-home lesson is that you did NOT get the pup that was advertised - so you have to decide if you wan't to adjust your expectations to fit the pup that you do have, or if you want to bring the puppy back and try again. 

Though to tell you the truth, puppies that don't chase and don't bite are rare, even if the breeder tries to tell you otherwise.

Curious too as to how you ended up with such a high-energy pup from a breeder that breeds for low-energy - did she evaluate and pick the puppy for you? Or did the breeder let you pick your pup?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I do not understand this desire and obsession by some of these "old fashioned" breeders with size. If your vet isn't worried, and the puppy appears healthy weight-wise, I wouldn't worry at all about it. Dog's grow at different rates, my male put on weight/grew like crazy the first 7 months, everyone said how "huge" he was going to be and then he slowed down significantly around 9 months and ~78-80 pounds. Now at a year I'd guess he's in the low 80's. Different lines produce different size (and my male is of the working line/svelte/athletic , size/weight) but my point is that all dogs grow differently. Also, it's rough on their joints/body to grow and gain weight super fast.

See a vet for the poo-issues. Find a good trainer to help with obedience (although most of what you've described is pretty normal and trainer will help YOU gain confidence and give you some more control down the line/as the pup grows). And ditch the breeder, the fact that she's making you feel this way makes her/him completely unhelpful and ridiculous. Stick around here, there are lots that can understand your problems, but try and find someone irl (trainer) that can assist you.

Good luck, they are a great breed. :-D


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with your pup except I would have vet check a fecal.

Your breeder sounds a bit "off "though... like they don't want to help and just foist all issues on the new owner.

Do you want to share the kennel name?

Best


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I think all German Shepherd puppies bite. They are called Land Sharks for a reason. It gets better with training and time. I had plenty of ripped towels and pants. 

My puppy did well on eukanuba large breed puppy food(sp?). I tried to switch to a premium brands and he would get pudding butt. After trying several foods, I now have him on a grain free salmon food. ( I read some dogs don't do well with chicken kibble.) He is 16 months now. So, far he's dong pretty good on the new food. He also gets probiotics and pumpkin. I'm very familiar with the pudding butt fight. I'm stating to think the premium foods may just be to rich for some GSD's...idk. 

I would not worry about the size. Everyone tells me my GSD is to skinny. Except the vet who tells me he is an ideal weight. He is 26" tall and weighs 73 pounds. 

It's funny the breeder says her puppies don't bite. Well, it's from her and it is biting...lol...seriously all puppies bite. GSD's are just a bit more intense biters as puppies.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Please don't post the kennel name - the Board has a no-breeder bashing rule, so better for your breeder to not be named. If people would like to know who the breeder is, please PM the poster.


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## peppsmom (Oct 4, 2014)

Thank ALL of you so far! 

I don't want to share the breeder's name (honestly, while I don't like what they are saying they haven't been rude, and her other clients seem happy.. I don't want to cause a problem... but if someone really wants to know I will disclose in a PM!) 

I do love the little rascal. I have no desire to "re-home" her- we are adapting every day to her exhausting ways =). The breeder just made me "fearful" that since it "wasn't supposed to be this way" that I was doing something wrong. 

My partner and I are super active, lots of hiking, busy outdoors people (live in the mountain west US) and wanted a "family dog" who was kind to strangers and animals and our cats and potential future children, but we are quite active so we did not list "couch potato" as a desired quality. We also said we were unconcerned with size or coloring, we just wanted a healthy dog. 

I hope I answered all your questions... please keep your responses coming, it is so helpful to hear your tips and that this is normal!


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## DonnaKay (Jan 20, 2014)

Lot's of good information and knowledgeable people on this forum, so you came to the right place. 

Puppy biting = normal. I had scratches, bites and bruises all over my hands and arms, ripped pants and shirts when mine was a baby. Looked like I had been in a serious knife fight. LOL. We worked hard on the stopping the behavior but once she was done teething, the biting stopped. 

Pudding butt = trial and error with finding a food that works best for your pup. When trying a different kibble, switch over slowly and watch pup's energy level. Low energy is a good sign that she isn't tolerating a new food. Better yet... go raw! Lot's of good info here on feeding raw, if you're interested.

There is one thing you didn't do that needs to be corrected immediately. You didn't post a pic! We LOVE pics, especially puppy pics!! Hop to it!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Did your vet do a snap test for Giardia? That is often treated best with Pancur (or safeguard, same drug). That can cause stinky poo diarrhea as can coccidia (which is much easier to detect). 

The rest sounds like a normal GSD puppy. When she is being a brat, just put her away. If she doesn't want to redirect to a toy, put her away. Things will get better. 

Oh and ignore your breeder.


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## peppsmom (Oct 4, 2014)

You guys are so awesome, I feel 300 percent better already! Thank you so much, truly truly. I don't think we've done a snap for giardia, I will do so. Does it make sense that she'd be so up and down if it was giardia? Good poo / pudding poo back to back and on and off? 

Here are some pictures. I think she's the cutest but I'm certainly biased! =)


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

she is soooo cute! and I agree with the others And yes, giardia can come and go like you are seeing.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

About pudding poop ... Is it possible she is getting into the cat food or cat poop? Cat food kibble can set off their tummy.
Your baby is just fine. The biting will get better eventually. You have to go thru the land shark stage. Not much you can do. With Fiona I acted like she killed me. I mean way over the top acting and then I would go lock myself in the bathroom. I still do it when she accidentally gets me while playing.
Don't worry about size. She is where Fiona was at that time. Fiona is now 29 months and 60 pounds. Perfect for her hips.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

If the breeder is quick to criticize...I would hope they are just as quick to offer solutions....have you employed any of the breeder's advice for these specific problems?

SuperG


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

peppsmom said:


> You guys are so awesome, I feel 300 percent better already! Thank you so much, truly truly. I don't think we've done a snap for giardia, I will do so. Does it make sense that she'd be so up and down if it was giardia? Good poo / pudding poo back to back and on and off?
> 
> =)


When Riley had Giardia the poo shot out of his butt like water. Kaleb never had Giardia. 

She is a cutey!


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## peppsmom (Oct 4, 2014)

We definitely tried everything the breeder said first. The nose tap to try and help with biting was very unsuccessful. She got way more riled up and just played rougher. The thing with most of suggestions was we had already tried them and the insinuation that we haven't tried hard enough..or that if we were doing what they said it just wouldn't be happening. that's really why I got so frustrated in the first place, because all I was really looking for was a "that's normal it'll pass with persistence" you know?


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## peppsmom (Oct 4, 2014)

Oh and def not cat food/poo eating troubles, we've been keeping the kitties upstairs most the time and she hasn't been up the stairs yet.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with Lucia's suggestion of tug. It really helps a pup get that need for biting out of its system. Flirtpole also helps but be careful. Soon, though teething will begin so you have to be cautious on the tugging. I'd never tap my puppy's muzzle like that...it just increases the frustration and adds conflict. Redirect to a toy or soothing chew. 
Most pups want to chew when they begin the teething stage, so fresh raw knucklebones given when you can supervise are also a good way to get out that need to gnaw away.


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## peppsmom (Oct 4, 2014)

I will definitely try more of that. Thank you. Those that thought giardia, wouldn't metronidazole clear that up? We've been on two regiments of that.


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## jetdog (Oct 9, 2005)

Very strongly agree with getting her checked for giardia! Stools can go from good to mushy to pudding poo and back again. And if it is giardia, she might need to be treated more than once, so definitely retest once she's done with treatment - seems like many pups need 2 or 3 rounds of giardia treatment to get rid of it completely. We had a pup we bought have mushy poo, no blood, no vomiting, just softer poop - and he had giardia. Even after treatment and testing negative a few times he continued with on and off mushy poo - we think the giardia did a number on his young puppy digestive system, but his stools did normalize within another couple weeks, and he did very well on NutriSource large breed puppy food.

No breeder produces 100% perfect uniform puppies all the time, unless he/she has some kind of super special secret powers that the rest of us would like to have! Puppies have very individual personalities and drives, even littermates can be very different from each other...

Your pup sounds very normal for her age and the mouthing thing is going to continue to be an issue for awhile. It's just a stage most Shepherds go through and she will begin to get the right idea about being gentle and biting on the correct things, it just takes a TON of patience and time. And repeatedly showing her the desired behavior by redirecting her to a toy or chewy, and ceasing all fun activity immediately by getting up and turning your back the instant she mouths/bites. She will learn that biting = end of playtime/attention and that's no fun.

Don't let your breeder intimidate you, it's sounds like you are genuinely trying with your pup, and that's what matters... Your breeder just has a bad case of "Oh my gosh it can't possibly be my fault, all my pups are perfect" syndrome. 

And as a comparison, we have an almost 12 week old female GSD right now that just weighed in @ 19.5 lbs. and both dam and sire are good sized dogs, even a bit over standard, so don't feel bad about your girls's size, she sounds just fine.

Oh and she is adorable too!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

*Teething*



onyx'girl said:


> I agree with Lucia's suggestion of tug. It really helps a pup get that need for biting out of its system. Flirtpole also helps but be careful. Soon, though teething will begin so you have to be cautious on the tugging. I'd never tap my puppy's muzzle like that...it just increases the frustration and adds conflict. Redirect to a toy or soothing chew.
> 
> Most pups want to chew when they begin the teething stage, so fresh raw knucklebones given when you can supervise are also a good way to get out that need to gnaw away.



Bones concern me. I have given my pup 3 1/4 sawn knuckle bones from 11-15 weeks old. I can see the wear on her puppy teeth (down to nubs on her front non fang teeth, so that's no more for now.

Now, no tug? I have just started playing tug with her the last 5 days (to strengthen her back legs. We play plenty of ball, but she needed something for her back legs. As you may have guessed, we are still confined to no walks until her last puppy shots (another 2 weeks) she'll be 4 mos old tomorrow. Her first 2 bottom middle teeth are coming in - If I can't use bones because she is OCD about chewing them and I can't use tug, that leaves me with ball playing - not gonna cut it....

Gave her rawhide medium size dog chew toy, 1 time. she had it unrolled and was choking on a whole big piece when I got to her, not an option.


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## DonnaKay (Jan 20, 2014)

Oh my gosh, she is sooooo cute! What a sweet baby!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Can I ask what food she is on?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Stonevintage said:


> Bones concern me. I have given my pup 3 1/4 sawn knuckle bones from 11-15 weeks old. I can see the wear on her puppy teeth (down to nubs on her front non fang teeth, so that's no more for now.
> 
> Now, no tug? I have just started playing tug with her the last 5 days (to strengthen her back legs. We play plenty of ball, but she needed something for her back legs. As you may have guessed, we are still confined to no walks until her last puppy shots (another 2 weeks) she'll be 4 mos old tomorrow. Her first 2 bottom middle teeth are coming in - If I can't use bones because she is OCD about chewing them and I can't use tug, that leaves me with ball playing - not gonna cut it....
> 
> Gave her rawhide medium size dog chew toy, 1 time. she had it unrolled and was choking on a whole big piece when I got to her, not an option.


The fresh knucklebone generally doesn't wear down puppy teeth. It really shouldn't matter anyway as those teeth are 'milk teeth' and are only temporary. I'd still offer a fresh bone with cartilage, don't let it dry out(fridge it between chew sessions) 
Tug is still ok, but because pup is teething it may be painful and I wouldn't be as 'strong' in the tug, though play the game, pretend pup is overwhelming you and let the pup win often. 
To strengthen the back legs there are other things you can do. Perchwork or core strengthening exercises will help.... go uphill when out for walks.

I agree on the rawhide, I'll never give them to my dogs. There are many safer chew options available.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

peppsmom said:


> I will definitely try more of that. Thank you. Those that thought giardia, wouldn't metronidazole clear that up? We've been on two regiments of that.


 No. That is the least affective treatment. I dealt with giardia in 5 dogs last winter. My vet first tried the metronidazole and it was back in a few days. Treated with Panacur (Febendazole) for 10 days and it cleared it right up. I now just keep Safe-guard (same drug) around (cheaper) just in case. I don't treat without confirmation that it is giardia, but I still like to have it on hand (my vet was short last time since 5 large dogs use a lot). If the Panacur doesn't work sometimes treating with both that AND the metronidazole is required, but luckily I have not faced this nor has anyone I know.


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## peppsmom (Oct 4, 2014)

Thank you! We will bring in a fresh fecal. I've now over read on EPI and I'm terribly anxious about it! I hope it's just giardia at this point!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Your puppy is very young for EPI signs. The dogs I have known with EPI were diagnosed at 10 months or older and didn't start showing signs until that age at the youngest.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Now, no tug? I have just started playing tug with her the last 5 days (to strengthen her back legs. [/QUOTE]

Just be careful tugging. When they are teething the teeth are getting loose. I tugged a few of my pups teeth out. The first one happened at IPO club. They really bleed, but he was fine. He didn't even react when the tooth came out. He just wanted to keep tugging.


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