# Trying to figure out what type of GSD we need...



## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

My wife and I are starting our search for a German Shepherd puppy, and we are trying to figure out which type of GSD (and breeder) we should be looking for. Hopefully i can give you guys enough information about our situation, so we can get some recommendations.

For a little background, my wife and I live alone, with the exception of our 17 pound male Chiweenie dog. He is 12 years old and is a total lap dog. We aren’t big outdoor people, although we have a huge park at the end of our street that is perfect for walking dogs. It is 418 acres and almost 5 miles of wooded area and walking trails. We also live on an acre of land in Colorado.

We want another dog for a few reasons. First, personal protection. Second, my family had a GSD when i was growing up, and i thought he was the best dog ever. He did have hip dysplasia, so health is a key concern. And third, i want to do more activities outside, since we live in an ideal area, and i figure a GSD will push us in that direction. One thing i know for certain with these dogs is if you don’t exercise them mentally and physically, they can become very destructive around the house.

My original thought was to get a ddr pup. I don’t have any plans of working towards titles like IPO, which i understand the West German lines are more appropriate for. But i am not really sure, which is the reason for this post.

So in conclusion, we are looking for a male puppy, plan on training him personally, and with assistance (if needed), and will be taking him to the park daily, plus having him with us when we are out driving in our Jeep. This will be a family pet first. We really don’t want a dog that will be too aggressive to strangers, or other dogs. I don’t think we want a dog with super high drive either.

I am not sure if this paints a good picture, so let me know if you need more details.

Thanks guys!

Rob


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

When you say you want a dog for personal protection, what do you mean? Will the dog be trained as a personal protection dog? Do you just want a dog that will scare people away by barking or one that will actually fight a person if they aggress toward you? There is a big different in temperament between the two types and everything in between. A dog that will just bark is kind of like having an unloaded gun. IMO, there really aren't any DDR dogs left. There are some that are similar to those dogs of the past but most of the similarities are in terms of type and not temperament.


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Hey Chip, I think a barking GSD would be intimidating enough. We live in a very good area so threats are pretty minimal imo.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

robmypro said:


> My wife and I are starting our search for a German Shepherd puppy, and we are trying to figure out which type of GSD (and breeder) we should be looking for. Hopefully i can give you guys enough information about our situation, so we can get some recommendations.
> 
> For a little background, my wife and I live alone, with the exception of our 17 pound male Chiweenie dog. He is 12 years old and is a total lap dog. We aren’t big outdoor people, although we have a huge park at the end of our street that is perfect for walking dogs. It is 418 acres and almost 5 miles of wooded area and walking trails. We also live on an acre of land in Colorado.
> 
> ...


I have a two year old working line female and had the same type of concerns when we got her. As for protection, she is very protective. Good with people, though aloof with some folks. As a 12 week old pup she tried to kill every strange dog that wandered into her line of sight. Obedience training helped somewhat, along with continued training. I had a police dog trainer and he assured me her reactions were not not fear driven, but protection driven. At around a year, she started relaxing with distant strange dogs, but she doesn't tolerate strange dogs running up to us on walks. She's Czech/West German working lines mixed. When I say Czech I mean lots of Czech plus Belgium and Slovak dogs. You will see that in lots of pedigrees, and some may advise that you want a tighter Czech dog, or to get a West German dog, but mixing does occur. I'll leave that to breeders to argue about. But, don't get me wrong, she's a wonderful, stable (abeit intimidating when needed) dog. If you get a working line be prepared to socialize a s much as possible. I'm finding that the more unfamiliar places I take my dog, the better she gets in processing unfamiliar surroundings. And, in truth, I was a bit lax in socializing at first. Good luck.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think it is best to get a dog that fits your current life style. Getting a dog to push you in a different one is like buying clothes that are too small in order to get motivated to lose weight. A working line dog (what you mention as DDR) needs more than being a deterrent and a walk. They require a life style. Any GSD will look intimidating to a non-dog person. My gut feeling tells me that you will be happiest with a show line from a breeder who takes health and temperament both seriously.


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> I think it is best to get a dog that fits your current life style. Getting a dog to push you in a different one is like buying clothes that are too small in order to get motivated to lose weight. A working line dog (what you mention as DDR) needs more than being a deterrent and a walk. They require a life style. Any GSD will look intimidating to a non-dog person. My gut feeling tells me that you will be happiest with a show line from a breeder who takes health and temperament both seriously.


Thanks for the advice. Would this be a west german line or an American line?


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Rionel said:


> I have a two year old working line female and had the same type of concerns when we got her. As for protection, she is very protective. Good with people, though aloof with some folks. As a 12 week old pup she tried to kill every strange dog that wandered into her line of sight. Obedience training helped somewhat, along with continued training. I had a police dog trainer and he assured me her reactions were not not fear driven, but protection driven. At around a year, she started relaxing with distant strange dogs, but she doesn't tolerate strange dogs running up to us on walks. She's Czech/West German working lines mixed. When I say Czech I mean lots of Czech plus Belgium and Slovak dogs. You will see that in lots of pedigrees, and some may advise that you want a tighter Czech dog, or to get a West German dog, but mixing does occur. I'll leave that to breeders to argue about. But, don't get me wrong, she's a wonderful, stable (abeit intimidating when needed) dog. If you get a working line be prepared to socialize a s much as possible. I'm finding that the more unfamiliar places I take my dog, the better she gets in processing unfamiliar surroundings. And, in truth, I was a bit lax in socializing at first. Good luck.


Sounds like a great dog. How much exercise do you give her?


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

BTW, the main reason I was leaning towards a DDR dog is for health reasons. HD really sucks and I just don't want to go there. But, I also understand the trouble that a working dog can get into if you don't work them. Trying to find the right balance.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

robmypro said:


> Sounds like a great dog. How much exercise do you give her?


Nearly every day she gets about an hour walk, plus yard workout (tug toys). Couple times a week we spend an hour or two at a local park for exposure. Always training when we're walking s well. In the house with us a lot so she's constantly played with to do our stupid human tricks lol. I don't do sport like IPO. I bought her hoping to get into SAR but she's too driven otherwise I think.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

robmypro said:


> Thanks for the advice. Would this be a west german line or an American line?


Either one would work for you.

I agree with Wolfy Dog. Buy a dog based on your current lifestyle. Not an imagined one.


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Rionel said:


> Nearly every day she gets about an hour walk, plus yard workout (tug toys). Couple times a week we spend an hour or two at a local park for exposure. Always training when we're walking s well. In the house with us a lot so she's constantly played with to do our stupid human tricks lol. I don't do sport like IPO. I bought her hoping to get into SAR but she's too driven otherwise I think.


That doesn't sound too bad but I really need to think if we have the time or inclination to make that commitment.


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Either one would work for you.
> 
> I agree with Wolfy Dog. Buy a dog based on your current lifestyle. Not an imagined one.


Yeah, you are probably right! Would I be a bit safer getting a West German puppy, since health concerns are a priority?


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

I guess another question would be, what are the primary differences between the West German and American GSD lines? I am very cautious about getting an American German Shepherd, mostly due to heath concerns.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

robmypro said:


> I guess another question would be, what are the primary differences between the West German and American GSD lines? I am very cautious about getting an American German Shepherd, mostly due to heath concerns.


I have no idea what myths you've encountered. There are common health issues in the German Shepherd breed, regardless of lines. You need to find a good breeder who health tests. Please do some research into the WGSL and ASL's. Visit some breeders. And make your choice. After you meet some dogs, you may decide a Golden Retriever is actually what you want.


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I have no idea what myths you've encountered. There are common health issues in the German Shepherd breed, regardless of lines. You need to find a good breeder who health tests. Please do some research into the WGSL and ASL's. Visit some breeders. And make your choice. After you meet some dogs, you may decide a Golden Retriever is actually what you want.


We had a GSD growing up, so it isn't really a myth. Our dog had HD and I don't want to go there again. And because I have owned one in the past I know what I am getting into. Not wanting a Golden!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

All. Lines. Have. HD. ALL. That is NOT an American line only thing. That is a myth. 

Good luck in your search.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

What Jax is trying to get across to you is that any line can have HD and any line can have health issues common to the _breed_. It isn’t that a working line dog won’t get HD. In fact, if you got a working line pup from a crappy breeder because you think it’s really just show lines that have it, you’re way more likely to get a dog with HD than if you went to a good show line breeder who health tests and knows what they’re producing.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

robmypro said:


> We had a GSD growing up, so it isn't really a myth. Our dog had HD and I don't want to go there again. And because I have owned one in the past I know what I am getting into. Not wanting a Golden!


How many of us have had a WL with HD? * _raises hand_ *
As Jax said, it’s a health concern of the _breed_. A reputable breeder of _any_ line will do its best to health test their dogs stacking the cards in their favor but that is not full proof either. There are genetic, hormonal, diet and exercises factors that contribute to HD.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I would stay away from American GSDs as they are essentially either BYB or show lines and if you want a dog that will at least present the image of protecting, your odds will be decreased. As I said, so called DDR dog are largely a marketing strategy, although there are some DDR lines that more closely resemble the original DDR lines. Keep in mind that the DDR dogs were selected to be more defensive and dominance was a valued trait. I don't think you would likely end up with an extremely serious DDR dog, but I don't think the health differences between so called DDR dogs and West German dogs are different. What is more important is knowing what the parents have produced as well as the other dogs in the pedigree. If you have a sense of what a breeding will produce in terms of health, temperament, etc., you are more likely to get the dog you want rather than boxing things into American, DDR or West German.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes, visit breeders, meet their dogs, check references from people who have full adult dogs from this breeder . Look at the dogs' behavior when they meet you. Best is if they will approach you and then kinda ignore you. Observe the interaction between breeder and dogs. Tell the breeder about your lifestyle and how they can pair you with a pup. Realize that any GSD needs a lot of exercise, playtime, training, patience!! and understanding. Maybe you are best off with a nice retired breeding dog.
Regarding health: my Deja (6) is from working lines but I also had two dogs from the same breeder with health issues before I had her. The breeder stands behind his dogs and has proven to breed great dogs. Every breeder will encounter issues at some point. The thing to do is to find out how honest they are about it.


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> All. Lines. Have. HD. ALL. That is NOT an American line only thing. That is a myth.
> 
> Good luck in your search.





Pytheis said:


> What Jax is trying to get across to you is that any line can have HD and any line can have health issues common to the _breed_. It isn’t that a working line dog won’t get HD. In fact, if you got a working line pup from a crappy breeder because you think it’s really just show lines that have it, you’re way more likely to get a dog with HD than if you went to a good show line breeder who health tests and knows what they’re producing.





Fodder said:


> How many of us have had a WL with HD? * _raises hand_ *
> As Jax said, it’s a health concern of the _breed_. A reputable breeder of _any_ line will do its best to health test their dogs stacking the cards in their favor but that is not full proof either. There are genetic, hormonal, diet and exercises factors that contribute to HD.


I guess I thought that by being selective with the breeder combined with a working line lowered the odds of getting a dog with health issues. But it sounds like breeder selection is the determining factor more than what line you decide on. Basically, two separate topics. Pick the type of GSD you want first, based on temperament, traits, intended lifestyle, etc., and then start the breeder search to find one that is serious about breeding. Thanks again for clarifying, guys. Not trying to be difficult! 



Chip Blasiole said:


> I would stay away from American GSDs as they are essentially either BYB or show lines and if you want a dog that will at least present the image of protecting, your odds will be decreased. As I said, so called DDR dog are largely a marketing strategy, although there are some DDR lines that more closely resemble the original DDR lines. Keep in mind that the DDR dogs were selected to be more defensive and dominance was a valued trait. I don't think you would likely end up with an extremely serious DDR dog, but I don't think the health differences between so called DDR dogs and West German dogs are different. What is more important is knowing what the parents have produced as well as the other dogs in the pedigree. If you have a sense of what a breeding will produce in terms of health, temperament, etc., you are more likely to get the dog you want rather than boxing things into American, DDR or West German.


Gotcha. I am starting to wrap my brain around this! Thanks. 



wolfy dog said:


> Yes, visit breeders, meet their dogs, check references from people who have full adult dogs from this breeder . Look at the dogs' behavior when they meet you. Best is if they will approach you and then kinda ignore you. Observe the interaction between breeder and dogs. Tell the breeder about your lifestyle and how they can pair you with a pup. Realize that any GSD needs a lot of exercise, playtime, training, patience!! and understanding. Maybe you are best off with a nice retired breeding dog. Regarding health: my Deja (6) is from working lines but I also had two dogs from the same breeder with health issues before I had her. The breeder stands behind his dogs and has proven to breed great dogs. Every breeder will encounter issues at some point. The thing to do is to find out how honest they are about it.


Thanks for the advice. So what are the odds of getting a GSD with health issues, assuming you pick a reputable breeder? Are we talking 1 in 10, or 1 in 2? I know it is subjective, but are health issues super common in this breed?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Oh I’d say the odds are much better than 1 in 10, much! ...but yes, health issues are common in the breed, that’s what popularity (and all that comes with it) does. Having successfully managed HD for 10yrs (dx at 3)... I honestly rather repeat that experience than deal with frustration of severe & chronic allergies. Everyone has their limits.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

robmypro said:


> That doesn't sound too bad but I really need to think if we have the time or inclination to make that commitment.


That may be your answer. On top of my work with her, she has a 104lb male Rough Collie in the backyard that she runs with most of the day, and she wears him out, and pushes him around the yard like a rag doll (sweetly! She idolizes him and vice versa). But he does reach his limit and lets her know. Then imagine a high key dog. I have seen Czech line dogs that are much more high energy than mine. It's all good, but it is a busy week or I'm not spending enough energy on her.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Also, I agree with some others about health. Go see the parents and litters. You can lookup the pedigree too (to see siblings and progeny consistency of the lines going backward). Some owners will talk with you about their dogs if you can locate them. According to my vet, several large breeds can get HD. It's comforting to see HD being tested with breeders, but that isn't a complete guarantee your pup won't get it. They can get it environmentally too if you allow them to jump and bang around too much. After their growth plates fuse, it is apparently is less of a worry. Again I refer you to the breeders or vets on that.


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Thanks again guys. Appreciate all the input. I will look at other threads to see if I can find a good breeder locally.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Here’s a recent thread that can give you an idea of the level of commitment, although lines aren’t discussed, ages are.








Daily & weekly routines - please share


Good morning, what does life with your dog(s) look like? Do you have one or more dogs? Do you train/ walk/ play together? Separately? What does your day look like? And your week? Anything that you do that is a lifesaver or makes a huge difference in your relationship with your companions? :)




www.germanshepherds.com




I’d also get familiar with the following sections of the board - general puppy stuff, puppy behavior & aggression (here’s a tip, the majority of the posts there are considered normal and not aggressive behavior at all, ie puppy biting). If I get a chance I’ll update the linked thread with my current dogs routine when I got him at 7 months.... might I also suggest looking into a GSD rescue to volunteer in the meantime, gets you out and physical, gets your hands on a variety of dogs and also lets you see some of the common behavioral issues in the breed...some due to temperament, but mostly lack of training, added bonus is that you might end up adopting


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder said:


> Here’s a recent thread that can give you an idea of the level of commitment, although lines aren’t discussed, ages are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great info. Reading that thread now.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

In the US there are a lot of scammy WGSL breeders who buy cull dogs from Germany and market the heck out of them. Some of them are also outrageously overpriced. You will be just fine with a WGSL or ASL from a good breeder, and I'd suggest finding breeders who breed nice moderate dogs not showline extremes.. I will say I would personally avoid any people who claim to have low drive dogs. There is a difference between having a lower drive for a german shepherd, as in not as intense and breeding dogs with no drive. These dogs are not very fun to train and especially in show lines they can still have very high energy requirements that is then much harder to focus due to the lack of drive. A good off switch is also key.

Basically just find a good showline breeder who does the required health testing AND is known to produce healthy dogs of the temperament you want. GSDs aren't the only breed with hip dysplasia and the "sloped" back doesn't cause it or they would be #1 in ranking. It's an issue with dogs in general whether pure or mixed.



https://www.ofa.org/diseases/breed-statistics#detail


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Thanks for the info Kazel. Is there a consensus in the community regarding good breeders?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

robmypro said:


> Thanks for the info Kazel. Is there a consensus in the community regarding good breeders?


Nope, because what’s good for you may not be good for me. Think of health and temperament testing as your good breeder baseline.... after that, there are going to be varying opinions based on individual need and experience level. That’s where seeing the dogs, being familiar with the breed standard, talking to other owners and asking the questions (why did you decide on this pairing? What do you expect out of this litter? What are some of Fido’s strengths and weaknesses?) come into the picture.


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