# 8 Month Old Growls When Eating



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

I have watched the Ed Frawley videos: Establishing Pack Structure and Basic Obedience Training.

I am using Ed's techniques in establishing pack structure and my boy is doing great with sit, down-stay's, waiting when I go in and out of doors, waiting calmly when I open crate or gates.

He is completely non-aggresive around my 2 year old and 6 year old kids and other people.

I have taught my 2 children to leave him alone while eating and they do.

The only time he growls is when he's eating. I make him stay calm and sit before I open his crate to feed. I say "go" he walks over to his spot about 8 feet from his crate, I say "stay", then I put the bowl down in his crate, he has complete control, then I release him and say "go" and he walks into his kennel and eats, I close the door and leave him in there until he's finished which only takes a minute or two. 

I've noticed that whenever he eats, and anyone else other than me approaches him or even walks by his kennel, he will growl and start inhaling his food as if its the last time he will ever eat. He will growl when my wife or kids just walk by even if they are 10 feet away. I've noticed that if I don't take the bowl out right when he's done eating, he will grab the bowl if they get close to him growl and then take it outside through the dog door. (the dog door is installed directly behind his crate which allows him access to his outside dog kennel which is 50ft by 12ft. The crate itself is mounted to the wall and I part of the crate out to allow him to pass through the dog door.

It worries me, especially with my two year old. He never, ever growls unless he has food or a high value item like a bone. 

The only thing that ever causes him aggression is when he has possesion of food. What can I do to help my situation? It's as if he changes into a different dog when he's eating, then changes back when his bowl is empty.

Thanks for any help.


----------



## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

It's called resource guarding, and some dogs can get pretty possessive with food and sometimes toy, items. I have to ask - why are you feeding an 8 month old in a crate? The only time I ever did this was when I was training my dogs to go INTO a crate and feel comfortable about it. When that was accomplished I fed them in the kitchen, outside, wherever. Just curious......

Are you this guy's primary caretaker? It sounds as though your family has never been involved in feeding or training him - just you. Has he always growled at them as they walk by, or is this something new? If so, I think you should have them immediately share the feeding responsibilities (not the baby of course) using the same techniques he has learned from you. Make him sit or down (NILIF - nothing in life is free) then put down his bowl and walk away. That way he sees them also as being the providers of the good stuff, not competition for it. Some people go back to feeding by hand, the way they might with a small puppy - again the idea is to show your dog that you (they) control the food. It's yours, not his, you are providing for him. (Bones, bully sticks, are something else. They are EXTRA highly prized, and even my dogs might resist having them taken away. I never do - but if I had to, I would exchange them for another attractive food item - such as braunschweiger luncheon meat e.g., they love that.)

Basically I would a) stop feeding him in a crate which, as you say, has access to the outside. You need to stop that nonsense of him running outside with the bowl. b) Get your wife and older child more involved with this chap's routine. He needs to understand that they are above him in the pack, not subordinates, and this behavior will not be tolerated. If necessary, put a leash on him so that you can immediately correct unwanted behavior (such as growling when they pick up his bowl.) 

Good luck - I'm sure others will have ideas (better than mine perhaps LOL)!
______________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:
Conor GSD


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

Anja1Blue said:


> It's called resource guarding, and some dogs can get pretty possessive with food and sometimes toy, items. I have to ask - why are you feeding an 8 month old in a crate? The only time I ever did this was when I was training my dogs to go INTO a crate and feel comfortable about it. When that was accomplished I fed them in the kitchen, outside, wherever. Just curious......
> 
> Are you this guy's primary caretaker? It sounds as though your family has never been involved in feeding or training him - just you. Has he always growled at them as they walk by, or is this something new? If so, I think you should have them immediately share the feeding responsibilities (not the baby of course) using the same techniques he has learned from you. Make him sit or down (NILIF - nothing in life is free) then put down his bowl and walk away. That way he sees them also as being the providers of the good stuff, not competition for it. Some people go back to feeding by hand, the way they might with a small puppy - again the idea is to show your dog that you (they) control the food. It's yours, not his, you are providing for him. (Bones, bully sticks, are something else. They are EXTRA highly prized, and even my dogs might resist having them taken away. I never do - but if I had to, I would exchange them for another attractive food item - such as braunschweiger luncheon meat e.g., they love that.)
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the reply. I was instructed by Ed Frawley (Leerburg) to always feed him in his crate. 

As for having other family members feed - the Establishing Pack Structure video states for the pack leader to do all these things, and then when a child 8 years or older is ready to be trained in how to deal with the dog, I can do so. My daughter is 6 and still needs some training from me on how to give commands/timing.

Leerburg instructs to teach children to NEVER disturb any dog who is sleeping, eating, or caring for puppies.

I've been given a lot of advice, anything from "just leave dogs alone when they are eating" (which we do, but he still growls if people simply walk by) to "you better get this under control or it could develop into something worse".


----------



## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Perhaps then it would be better for you, since you are following his protocols, to contact Ed directly and ask for his advice. You have an 8 month old dog which is growling at family members, and getting away with it. What happens when he is much bigger and stronger and perhaps decides that it's not only food he objects to them being around (like maybe, you.) I would be interested in what he has to say. 
_____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

For now, I would feed and take a couple of weeks where no one would walk near the crate while he was eating. Give him a rest and allow him to stop being concerned about this. Whether you've done everything "right" or not, he is showing you that there is something missing/not right with how things are working there. 

That whole process may be ramping him up to believe that the food is much more important than it is. On your mark, get set...GO! is how I read that. I wouldn't stick my hand in this guy's face either. 





*
---> http://www.4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf
---->In addition to this great PDF (that you need to click on) she has written a book called MINE! about resource guarding.*


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

tuffloud1 said:


> It worries me, especially with my two year old. He never, ever growls unless he has *food or a high value item* like a bone.
> 
> 
> Thanks for any help.


Okay
You are already starting to equivocate.
It is not just food, it is also a high value item. So he is resource guarding. I will give advice that will be argued against by just about everyone. Put him on free feeding. Put his dish out and keep a couple of cups in it at all times. When he finishes it put 2 more cups (not scoops) in it. He may pig out for a day or so but once he sees there is always food it will not be so 'special' to him. He can eat only so much and he will not overeat for more than a day or so if at all.
People say that they can't do that because their dog would eat themselves to death. That is nonsense. Dogs don't want to kill themselves. Once they are secure in the knowledge that food will be available they learn quickly to control themselves.
Sure, they pig out like a college kid the first time away from home. But dogs are smarter than college kids, they know when to stop.


----------



## Maria99F4 (Dec 30, 2011)

I agree with paddy D. How ever I have never had a proublem taking anything from my dog. He just waits paccently for me to return it to him. But if he is growling when he has food and you have young children it's Deffinatly a proublem that needs to be corrected right away. When I was younger I had a dog that did the same thing. She did bite me one time I was just walking past her. after that happened I would give her her food and she lost the aggression with everyone.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I agree with Paddy too. Food is not a high value anything in this house because it's just there. Granted, I have since had to stop free feeding because of the puppy, but even still - it's just food to them, no big deal. 

I also did what isn't a popular habit on this forum - I (and everyone in my family) put our hands in the food bowl, petted, took away the bowl/gave it back.. everything under the sun. But I can step over my dogs now while they eat with no problems, I can get into the cabinet that is right by their food bowl with no problems. Food is just food in this house. 

I never really understood feeding a dog in a crate. I know people suggest it, but it makes no sense to me. I would rather my dogs eat in the kitchen/dining area where the rest of the family (pack) eats. Even the cat food is just a few feet away from the dog food. A crate, to me, is a place to rest/sleep. Humans don't get shoved in their bedroom to eat, why would you do it to a dog? JMO, of course.


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> I agree with Paddy too. Food is not a high value anything in this house because it's just there. Granted, I have since had to stop free feeding because of the puppy, but even still - it's just food to them, no big deal.
> 
> I also did what isn't a popular habit on this forum - I (and everyone in my family) put our hands in the food bowl, petted, took away the bowl/gave it back.. everything under the sun. But I can step over my dogs now while they eat with no problems, I can get into the cabinet that is right by their food bowl with no problems. Food is just food in this house.
> 
> I never really understood feeding a dog in a crate. I know people suggest it, but it makes no sense to me. I would rather my dogs eat in the kitchen/dining area where the rest of the family (pack) eats. Even the cat food is just a few feet away from the dog food. A crate, to me, is a place to rest/sleep. Humans don't get shoved in their bedroom to eat, why would you do it to a dog? JMO, of course.


The more I think about it, the more this makes sense. Ed Frawley has a great deal of knowledge, however it seems that many people use the "dogs in the wild would" thing. Well our dogs aren't in the wild. So why would we try to keep some of that instinct inside them?

It makes a lot of sense to just keep his bowl full in the kitchen, monitor it for awhile around the kids of course. I never have him off leash in the house yet, he acts way to hyper and blockheadish still. Once he is used to eating in the kitchen, then stop keeping food readily available? Does this sound like a good plan?

Also I have his water outside the dog door on his deck I built for him, it's an automatic refill one attached to the spicket. He has never growled over water so I don't find it necessary to put water in the kitchen. He is very slobbish when he drinks. Now that I think about it, he probably doesn't guard because there is alway water at all times available.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

tuffloud1 said:


> The more I think about it, the more this makes sense. Ed Frawley has a great deal of knowledge, however it seems that many people use the "dogs in the wild would" thing. Well our dogs aren't in the wild. So why would we try to keep some of that instinct inside them?


but even dogs in the wild eat as a pack.... they don't go off and eat on their own. Sure, they fight over food, but they still eat together in the same proximity.



> It makes a lot of sense to just keep his bowl full in the kitchen, monitor it for awhile around the kids of course. I never have him off leash in the house yet, he acts way to hyper and blockheadish still. Once he is used to eating in the kitchen, then stop keeping food readily available? Does this sound like a good plan?


If he doesn't continue to eat more than he needs, you could continue to leave food out. I always freefed my dogs until this puppy arrived and I might end up doing it again if he outgrows his "I have to eat everything in the house" stage. My Golden still wants to eat when she wants to, which is always different times of the day, because she is used to just always having food there. She prefers to eat a few bites here & there, throughout the day. Her bowl is usually always full (the puppy knows to not eat out of her bowl). So I guess I still am free feeding in a way - there is always food out, it's just not for the puppy!


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> If he doesn't continue to eat more than he needs, you could continue to leave food out. I always freefed my dogs until this puppy arrived and I might end up doing it again if he outgrows his "I have to eat everything in the house" stage. My Golden still wants to eat when she wants to, which is always different times of the day, because she is used to just always having food there. She prefers to eat a few bites here & there, throughout the day. Her bowl is usually always full (the puppy knows to not eat out of her bowl). So I guess I still am free feeding in a way - there is always food out, it's just not for the puppy!


The only concern I have about free feeding is a dogs digestive system is designed in away that they evolved to have to "wolf" their food down because they didn't know when they would eat again. The meal spacing seems like it would be way apart. What do you think about this?


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I think it really depends on the dog. I've never had problems with it, never had an over-eater either, but I know some dogs can be. I think it's worth a try on your part just to see how your dog reacts to it. Like Paddy said, the first couple days he'll probably go nuts eating, but I'm thinking he'll ease off after he realizes "hey, it's still going to be here when I get up from my nap". 
I think the thinking of "don't know when they will eat again" isn't always true. My dogs, as most, know they will eat again - they know where the food bin is and they know it's where I get their food from. If the bowl is empty, they know I will fill it up... it's the least of their worries. 
Throw the "wild wolves" scenarios out the window. You have a dog, not a wolf


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

PaddyD said:


> He may pig out for a day or so but once he sees there is always food it will not be so 'special' to him. He can eat only so much and he will not overeat for more than a day or so if at all.
> People say that they can't do that because their dog would eat themselves to death. That is nonsense. Dogs don't want to kill themselves. Once they are secure in the knowledge that food will be available they learn quickly to control themselves.


I don't think this generalization can be applied to all dogs. It may very well be true for some dogs, but until you've had a dog that would eat until they exploded you have no idea how dangerous having food always available could be! 

One time Keefer broke into a new bag of food that was laying on the garage floor (we now keep them up on a shelf until they're ready to go into the bins) and ate who knows how much. This was AFTER he'd already eaten breakfast. His sides expanded to the point where he looked like he'd eaten a small calf. Seriously. I left for work shortly after this incident and he looked fine at the time, (in fact, he seemed happy as a pig in poop to have gotten all that extra food) but my husband was home in the office and I asked him to watch him during the day and make sure he was okay. I think I had him pick up the water too, so Keef wouldn't drink a bunch. 

Tom called me about mid-day and asked what the signs of bloat were. Yikes! I looked it up really quickly on the internet and read them to him over the phone. Keefer was showing no signs of distress, no panting, pacing, or air licking, but Tom mentioned how big his mid-section was. When I got home I was shocked! He was literally twice as wide as normal. He still seemed perfectly fine, but I debated on whether or not to take him to the vet anyway because he was so swollen up. A couple of enormous poops later, the next day he was back to normal. I'm sure he had no idea that what he did could have been life threatening, even if he had actually bloated and torsioned - dogs aren't going to make that kind of leap of logic. 

If anything, Halo is even MORE into food that Keefer is. Given the opportunity, there is no doubt in my mind that she would eat until she bloated. And then she'd do it again.


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> I think it really depends on the dog. I've never had problems with it, never had an over-eater either, but I know some dogs can be. I think it's worth a try on your part just to see how your dog reacts to it. Like Paddy said, the first couple days he'll probably go nuts eating, but I'm thinking he'll ease off after he realizes "hey, it's still going to be here when I get up from my nap".
> I think the thinking of "don't know when they will eat again" isn't always true. My dogs, as most, know they will eat again - they know where the food bin is and they know it's where I get their food from. If the bowl is empty, they know I will fill it up... it's the least of their worries.
> Throw the "wild wolves" scenarios out the window. You have a dog, not a wolf


I really like the idea of free feeding in the kitchen until he realizes food is not a high value item, then feed once a day. However to say that I have a dog and not a wolf doesn't seem logical from a feeding standpoint.

It is a scientific fact that dog's digestive systems are identical to wolves. They are simply not designed to eat a nibble here, a snack there. Psychologically yes, conditioning a dog to live with people makes sense. Feeding however is a biological function, you can't really change what is ideal for their digestive system.


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't think this generalization can be applied to all dogs. It may very well be true for some dogs, but until you've had a dog that would eat until they exploded you have no idea how dangerous having food always available could be!
> 
> One time Keefer broke into a new bag of food that was laying on the garage floor (we now keep them up on a shelf until they're ready to go into the bins) and ate who knows how much. This was AFTER he'd already eaten breakfast. His sides expanded to the point where he looked like he'd eaten a small calf. Seriously. I left for work shortly after this incident and he looked fine at the time, (in fact, he seemed happy as a pig in poop to have gotten all that extra food) but my husband was home in the office and I asked him to watch him during the day and make sure he was okay. I think I had him pick up the water too, so Keef wouldn't drink a bunch.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the story, what would you suggest to get his growling while eating under control?


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

tuffloud1 said:


> I really like the idea of free feeding in the kitchen until he realizes food is not a high value item, then feed once a day. However to say that I have a dog and not a wolf doesn't seem logical from a feeding standpoint.
> 
> It is a scientific fact that dog's digestive systems are identical to wolves. They are simply not designed to eat a nibble here, a snack there. Psychologically yes, conditioning a dog to live with people makes sense. Feeding however is a biological function, you can't really change what is ideal for their digestive system.


How about feeding twice a day? Or maybe 3 times... smaller portions? Then he still has food multiple times a day instead of having to feast just on one? 

I do agree with the digestive systems, but I'm basing my opinion on having 10+ dogs in my life that have never wolfed their food, not one of them. Table scraps, yes, but never their dogfood. (I can't speak for RAW feeding, I have never done that) This is just my experience, but as I said, I know that other people have had dogs who would eat until they burst. I might be wrong, but I think there are more dogs that will eat until they are full vs dogs that will eat until the food is gone.


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> How about feeding twice a day? Or maybe 3 times... smaller portions? Then he still has food multiple times a day instead of having to feast just on one?
> 
> I do agree with the digestive systems, but I'm basing my opinion on having 10+ dogs in my life that have never wolfed their food, not one of them. Table scraps, yes, but never their dogfood. (I can't speak for RAW feeding, I have never done that) This is just my experience, but as I said, I know that other people have had dogs who would eat until they burst. I might be wrong, but I think there are more dogs that will eat until they are full vs dogs that will eat until the food is gone.


I actually do still feed him twice a day, morning and night. I planned on tapering down to once a day soon. From 8 weeks to about 5 months, I was feeding 3 times a day. It wasn't until about 6 months when he started the growling while eating thing. His composition is great, a couple ribs barely showing, I have kept him very lean, which is best from all the research I've done.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Once a day feeding is not a good idea, stick with twice a day (unless you are going go the free fed route).


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Once a day feeding is not a good idea, stick with twice a day (unless you are going go the free fed route).


Why?


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

tuffloud1 said:


> Why?


If I fed my dog once a day he would inhale his food and most likely puke up yellow gunk...just my dog tho.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Feeding once a day is 'asking' for bloat to occur. Some will disagree with this but that is the common thinking that I have read and heard from vets. GSDs are one of the breeds most likely to get bloat and there are many in this forum who have had the unfortunate experience to lose dogs from it.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

at 6, or even 2, the kids are old enough to have interactions with the dog. Waiting until they are 8 is just, to me, sitting up problems. Right now, the dog is obviously viewing them and your wife as below him, with you at the top. Do you think when your child is 8 he will magically say "Oh ok. You are the boss now"? 
Let the 6 year old give him commands. Simple stuff like sit and stay. You are there to enforce for now. Or you put the dog in a sit/stay and let the kids put the bowl down. 

Personally, I think there is a big similarity between bothering a dog while he eats until you create a problem with him wanting to guard his food and isolating a dog until he doesn't know how to react to having people around. I'll use an example my grandmother gave when I had my first child. Live life as usual. TV on, other kids playing, running the vacuum, everything. Let your child get used to hearing everyday noises, even when it's time for a nap. Then you don't have to worry because the baby wakes up at the slightest pin drop.
The same goes for feeding the dog. My kids have always fed the dogs. I don't bother the dogs while they are eating, but I don't go out of my way to leave them alone either. If we need to go into the room, then we do it. Simply and matter of factly and then out again. I open drawers and cabinets over their heads. I make them move if they are in my way. 
I think the main reason it's never been a problem is that I never made it an issue. No stress or worry - just a fact of life. 

I've dealt with dogs that didn't like you near their food. I did what many here also recommend - I dropped extra yummy stuff in their bowls whenever I was nearby. Again, though, no fuss, talking or excitement. Just walk in, drop a bite of cheese, and back out again. Sometimes I didn't drop anything. But, always with the same attitude. If the dog growled or started to wolf his food, it was ignored or at most "what ya upset about you goofball??" and then on my way. It sounds like this pup has always been isolated at feeding time (crated or not). So he doesn't know how to react to people coming around or know what they intend to do. 

I do think that your first step is going to have to be getting the whole family involved in the pack. Give the kids jobs based on their abilities. Let the 2 year old help brush the dog. Or put the dish on the floor at feeding time. At training time, let the 6 year old give him commands that he already knows, even if you need to repeat them to get him to obey.
What part does your wife have with the dog? I know you said that you are following a specific training routine, but why THIS routine? Doesn't the whole family have to live with the dog? I can see if you were planning on a police dog or even a high-level competition dog that needs finely honed skills answerable only to you. Is there a reason that only you are head of the pack? I can tell you that dogs, even young puppies, have no problem learning that the whole family are "leaders" and need to be obeyed.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

^ What Dainerra said.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I completely missed the 8 year old old part. I have NEVER heard of that... EVER. Thats insane.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

It's too late to edit. 

To sum up what I was trying to say, you need to teach your pup from the beginning to live in the "real" world. If you have kids, then he needs to get used to dealing with them. If you are married, then the dog and spouse need to know how to live and work together. 
A dog can't just be kept in a bubble until a certain age and then magically know how to behave. The same is true with children. They don't have some magical training ability that clicks on a 8 years old. Some children have more ability at 5 then some adults I've met.

There is a video of a young girl working a dog in Schutzhund obedience. I'm pretty sure that she was training and working with dogs long before 8.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Now I'm analyzing. Sorry. The "bubble" comment made me go back and read the OP. 



> I make him stay calm and sit before I open his crate to feed. I say "go" he walks over to his spot about 8 feet from his crate, I say "stay", then I put the bowl down in his crate, he has complete control, then I release him and say "go" and he walks into his kennel and eats, I close the door and leave him in there until he's finished which only takes a minute or two.
> 
> he will grab the bowl if they get close to him growl and then take it outside through the dog door. (the dog door is installed directly behind his crate which allows him access to his outside dog kennel which is 50ft by 12ft. The crate itself is mounted to the wall and I part of the crate out to allow him to pass through the dog door.


 Is the dog always outside/in the crate? You seem to have a cool set up, but I'm just asking because you mentioned you bring the food TO his crate, it sounds like he's already in it at feeding time - is the dog allowed outside of the crate, in the house? I'm assuming he is because you are up to the idea of feeding him in the kitchen, but I just had to ask. 
The part about him grabbing the bowl and_ taking it outside _when he feels threatened worries me. Don't take this the wrong way, but it reminds me of a wild animal locked in a cage.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Dainerra said:


> There is a video of a young girl working a dog in Schutzhund obedience. I'm pretty sure that she was training and working with dogs long before 8.


Yep, she was competing at 7 years old:


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Kitty, I didn't think of it that way.  I was just using bubble to describe him ALWAYS eating in his crate. The same concept applies, I think. If you always eat alone in your crate in an empty room, then how would you know what behavior is expected when someone comes in? What do they want? 
It sounded to me like no one usually comes in until he is finished eating? So, what happens when people come in? The bowl is taken away. He doesn't want it taken away, so he growls. It's basically a patterned behavior. It wasn't intended, but dogs and kids always seem to learn what we don't mean to teach the fastest.

I agree that it sounds like the dog spends all of his time in his crate. And the OP already said that he is the "only pack leader" which implies that the rest of the family has, at best, minimal interactions with the dog. I think that sets the family up for a multitude of problems.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Yep, she was competing at 7 years old: Samantha 2010 WDC Schutzhund-Obedience - YouTube
> 
> Samantha 2010 WDC Schutzhund-Protection - YouTube


I just love those videos.  She is so amazing. I think she is so lucky to have such a great start. I'm kind of jealous!


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> Kitty, I didn't think of it that way.  I was just using bubble to describe him ALWAYS eating in his crate.


I didn't mean that you did  It's just the bubble comment is what made me go back and read the OP and thats when I picked up on the set up he has. I guess I just skimmed his original posts because I didn't even catch the 6/8 year old comments. I should have said that to begin with.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Kittilicious said:


> I didn't mean that you did  It's just the bubble comment is what made me go back and read the OP and thats when I picked up on the set up he has. I guess I just skimmed his original posts because I didn't even catch the 6/8 year old comments. I should have said that to begin with.


That's ok! I didn't even catch the full idea of "bubble" until I read your post 
I do hope that the OP comes back. It can be hard to get the full grasp of what someone is doing from a few online posts. There are so many things you might not think to mention unless you are asked!


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> Now I'm analyzing. Sorry. The "bubble" comment made me go back and read the OP.
> 
> 
> Is the dog always outside/in the crate? You seem to have a cool set up, but I'm just asking because you mentioned you bring the food TO his crate, it sounds like he's already in it at feeding time - is the dog allowed outside of the crate, in the house? I'm assuming he is because you are up to the idea of feeding him in the kitchen, but I just had to ask.
> The part about him grabbing the bowl and_ taking it outside _when he feels threatened worries me. Don't take this the wrong way, but it reminds me of a wild animal locked in a cage.


No he's not always outside/in the crate. I let him in the house, but ALWAYS on a leash. He is way to much of a blockhead right now to let him off leash in the house. I don't want bad behavior to develop by allowing him to get away with jumping up on the furniture, getting into things.

Today, the whole family spent alot of time with him. This morning my wife fed him in the kitchen, no growling. This evening, my daughter fed him in the kitchen, no growling. I actually had the prong collar on him with leash standing by while she held the bowl while he ate out of it and he didn't show any signs of aggression/growling. We even dropped some food on the floor and my wife brushed the food with her hands to him and he didn't growl one bit.

I think this is just a matter of conditioning him to be around us while eating, you guys are probably right.

The wife and kids have always played with him in the backyard when he's easily manageable in a wide open space, but they haven't been involving in feeding, grooming, walking. From this point on I will involve them.

I also had my daughter give him a bully stick today, then I took it away, handed back to her to give again. Then finally had my wife and daughter taking it away without any issues. 

I'm kind of dissapointed in the Ed Frawley videos from Leerburg at this point.

Everything he pretty much says goes against what you guys have recommended. He also doesn't recommend having your puppy interact with any other dogs, strangers at all, meaning no dog parks.

I understand that the pack leader should be the center of the dogs universe and other people and dogs can be a distraction. I get that other people petting your dog might make him seek praise from others which takes attention away from the pack leader. This is confusing to me when I've read so much advice in German Shepherd training books/articles about how you're supposed to socialize your GSD pup like crazy with whatever you want him to be used to in your day to day life - people outside the family, other dogs, cats, whatever.


----------



## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

always take what you can from training videos/books and customize according to your dog/personality/goal. I use some of leerburg's training techniques but not all. i socialize my dog and let strangers and children pet him. but my dog is not a sport dog (yet) nor is he a protection dog. for now he's just a pet and is socialized as one.

I do try to teach him to ignore other dogs though, unless I want him to play with that other dog. You decide what is best for your dog. Read books and videos for other trainers and customize your socialization and training to what fits you and your dog. No one trainer is 100% right. And you will make mistakes and learn from them and i believe that's ok too.


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

nitemares said:


> always take what you can from training videos/books and customize according to your dog/personality/goal. I use some of leerburg's training techniques but not all. i socialize my dog and let strangers and children pet him. but my dog is not a sport dog (yet) nor is he a protection dog. for now he's just a pet and is socialized as one.
> 
> I do try to teach him to ignore other dogs though, unless I want him to play with that other dog. You decide what is best for your dog. Read books and videos for other trainers and customize your socialization and training to what fits you and your dog. No one trainer is 100% right. And you will make mistakes and learn from them and i believe that's ok too.


Thanks for the advice. It's funny because I just started thinking the same thing. It's probably best to take what works for me and throw out what doesn't when it comes to the various training methods.

Luckily, I DID socialize him alot earler on with other dogs, kids, people. It wasn't until I watched the Leerburg videos that I started isolating him. 

I tried having him off leash in the house tonight, following him around of course to see how he behaved. All he does is go from room to room looking for food. It's like he's on a mission, he keeps making his rounds like crazy. He gets so worked up that he can't settle down. He'll go from that to stopping by the dog bed I just bought him and try to rip it apart and hump it.

I don't know what the deal is with the food searching in the house. I feed him 2 1/2 scoops twice a day (5 scoops total). He is right around 75 pounds and is very lean.

Here's a couple of pictures for fun -


----------



## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

he's gorgeous, could it be he's just enjoying his new found freedom?? LOL I know when i let me pup out in the morning the first thing he does is a sniffing round around the house, just to make sure everything is in order i guess lol


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

He's beautiful!!! 
I wouldn't say he was looking for food... he was just sniffing around, enjoying it - he was being a dog  Unless there are major reasons to, leave the leash for walks. 
Oh.. and the pack leader - everyone can be one. It doesn't mean just YOU have to be it. My cats have more authority than my dogs do in this house. 
Yeaaa for the dinnertime, too! Thats FABULOUS news!!!



> It wasn't until I watched the Leerburg videos that I started isolating him.


I need to look this guy up.... why does he think dogs need to be isolated? I don't get it.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Glad you're making progress! The newer Leerburg videos featuring Michael Ellis are very good, and there are a lot of free short video clips by Ellis on the Leerburg youtube channel that might be of interest to you. I've never seen the older Leerburg stuff, but I've heard enough about his recommendations to know that it's not right for me. 



tuffloud1 said:


> No he's not always outside/in the crate. I let him in the house, but ALWAYS on a leash. He is way to much of a blockhead right now to let him off leash in the house. I don't want bad behavior to develop by allowing him to get away with jumping up on the furniture, getting into things.


I do have young puppies drag a lightweight leash around the house, but by 8 months old a dog should no longer be so out of control that they need to be constantly leashed in the house. It does sound like that's because he's not been integrated into the home and family and taught manners right from the beginning as he should have been, but at this point all you can do is learn from that mistake and do better in the future. 

Remember that reinforcing the kind of behavior that you want will increase the likelihood of him offering up that behavior more frequently. Teach him to go to a mat and settle. Reward him for laying calmly on the floor. Teach him to get off the furniture, and to sit politely when meeting people rather than jumping on them. For some of this you may need to leash him, to prevent him from practicing bad behavior while you teach him what you DO want him to do. Teach him impulse control - this game is wonderful for that:


----------



## squeakermama (Nov 2, 2010)

I agree with free feeding. It's worked for me in the past with other dogs. Down side is the dog looks bloated and may have loose stools for a few days but they soon realize that the food is there. 2nd idea would be having the family take turns hand feeding the puppy at every feeding for a few weeks. No bowl, no create. Just small hand fulls of food in an opened hand until gone.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

tuffloud1 said:


> I actually had the prong collar on him with leash standing by while she held the bowl while he ate out of it and he didn't show any signs of aggression/growling.


Please do NOT use a prong collar for this issue!! You could make the problem much worse.

Dogs have very limited means of communicating with us. Vocalizations are their most common way.

When your dog growls when he's eating he is telling you that he thinks you might try to take his food (or whatever he has) and he's telling you to back off.

Some people would say MAKE the dog submit - I used to think that way, too.

Now I try to work WITH the dog instead of against them.

The way I deal with a resource guarding dog is to show the dog there is no REASON to guard something. I want them to learn that not only will I NOT take away what they value but I'm going to GIVE them something of even MORE value!!

I have my method documented in detail on my website:

Food Guarding

Using this method I can even reach into my dog's mouth and remove a piece of food if necessary (for example - if one is trying to swallow a chicken wing without chewing).


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm glad I never watched training videos or used anyone else's advice. I'm glad my 2 year old was able to push my dogs' butt out of the way as he walked past her while she was eating. I'm glad she always realized she was a dog and the kids were superior to her. That old dog has me sooo spoiled.


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

```

```



Lauri & The Gang said:


> Please do NOT use a prong collar for this issue!! You could make the problem much worse.
> 
> Dogs have very limited means of communicating with us. Vocalizations are their most common way.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. This sounds like a good method, I will give it a try.

Does anyone have advice on keeping him calm in the house? I use positive reinforcement when he lays in his place by giving treats. This works as long as I keep tossing them between his paws, he will stay there. However when I have no more treats to give, he will come to me and start nudging my hands looking for more.

It's kind of sporadic with him. He will lay and be calm for a little bit, 5 minutes or so, then he will come over to me or the family and start this curled snout yappy bark and "play bite" to get us to play with him and get wild. Once and a while he'll jump up on the couch if we ignore him.

I can't think of anything to stop him from doing this other than giving him a correction and telling him "no". I understand using treats as a positive reinforcer, I always have, however when he decides to cross boundaries, how can I get him to behave without negative reinforcement?


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't think that negative reinforcement Is a bad thing. Tell the pup what he is doing right and let him know when he is wrong.
Take him out and work with him and get him tired. Don't just feed him treats while laying in his space, teach him to be there. Increase the time that he is there before he gets a treat. Start off for a short period of time and build. Work with him for a while and then stop. My dogs don't have to stay in their spot all the time, it is where I send them when I need them out of the way.
If he gets hyper and over-excited, I would put him in his crate. I'm not sure if that would work in your case since it has access to the outside. Think of it as putting a child down for a nap. Let him relax and then bring him back out.

I'm glad that you are checking out different methods. All dogs and families are different. Everything must be adjusted to fit individual personalities and situations. Good luck!


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

tuffloud1 said:


> Does anyone have advice on keeping him calm in the house? I use positive reinforcement when he lays in his place by giving treats. This works as long as I keep tossing them between his paws, he will stay there. However when I have no more treats to give, he will come to me and start nudging my hands looking for more.
> 
> It's kind of sporadic with him. He will lay and be calm for a little bit, 5 minutes or so, then he will come over to me or the family and start this curled snout yappy bark and "play bite" to get us to play with him and get wild. Once and a while he'll jump up on the couch if we ignore him.
> 
> I can't think of anything to stop him from doing this other than giving him a correction and telling him "no". I understand using treats as a positive reinforcer, I always have, however when he decides to cross boundaries, how can I get him to behave without negative reinforcement?


Has he just been doing this since you took him off leash in the house? If you are suddenly changing things with him, he's probably just trying to figure it out. 
One easy way that I get my dogs to settle is belly rubs. Just nice, calm rubs that relax them. I'm ignoring them, but my hand isn't. They just seem to know that "ok, mom is saying is quiet time". If I get up and still want them settled I just tell them "stay". Usually they are relaxed enough that it's like "oh, ok, I didn't really want to get up anyway". 
I know a lot of people here seem like every moment is a training opportunity, but I don't look at it that way. There are times to teach them and times that just doing your normal everyday routine is training them, without you even thinking about it. Sometimes, IMO, a person can go into training overload with your dog. Your dog will get used to your routine... if you are sitting in the living room and the tv is on and you are quiet - eventually they learn that that means it's snuggle up at your feet and be quiet. Just like they learn that you putting your shoes on means your leaving. Dogs are smart


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

When Ozzy was a puppy, I'd feed him some of his kibbles, I'd pet him, I'd put my hands in the bowl, I'd call him from the bowl and once he came to me he could go back to eating. I didn't want a food aggressive dog, even if he is just a Pomeranian. Now he can have a bully stick (which he loves more than anything I've yet to find), and I can take it right out of his mouth or call him away from it. He's reluctant, but he does come. 

I like PaddyD's idea for free feeding for a little while.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think that perhaps you need to realize Ed Frawley is not a god, there are a lot of people who do not agree with him...and most of all...what Ed Frawley says is obviously not working for you. So no matter how much you seem to want to idolize him, you need to do something different.


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> I think that perhaps you need to realize Ed Frawley is not a god, there are a lot of people who do not agree with him...and most of all...what Ed Frawley says is obviously not working for you. So no matter how much you seem to want to idolize him, you need to do something different.


I idolize Ed Frawley? I watched a couple videos by him per the recommendation by many GSD owners, that's about it. This makes him a "god" in my eyes? How would you know what or who I idolize? I must have missed something.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sorry if I'm wrong, it's just the way you kept kind of going back to "but Ed Frawley said..................."


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

tuffloud1 said:


> Does anyone have advice on keeping him calm in the house? I use positive reinforcement when he lays in his place by giving treats. This works as long as I keep tossing them between his paws, he will stay there. However when I have no more treats to give, he will come to me and start nudging my hands looking for more.
> 
> It's kind of sporadic with him. He will lay and be calm for a little bit, 5 minutes or so, then he will come over to me or the family and start this curled snout yappy bark and "play bite" to get us to play with him and get wild. Once and a while he'll jump up on the couch if we ignore him.


Did you watch the video I linked to? That will teach him impulse control, it's basically a default leave it and watch, where you're not actually giving him any commands, he learns that the way to earn what he wants he needs to make good choices, even without you having to say a word. 

When my dogs were puppies I wore my treat bag around the house from the time I got home from work until bedtime, so I was always ready to reinforce the kind of behavior I liked. This is called capturing behaviors - you mark and reward behaviors spontaneously offered up by the dog, rather than asking for them. Gradually, you move from a high rate of reinforcement to a random rate of reinforcement. This builds a very strong behavior, similar to the way a slot machine works. Because we never know when the reward will come or how big it will be, we keep playing, hoping to get the jackpot. 

The fastest way to extinguish demand or attention barking is to completely ignore it. Don't look at him, don't talk to him - he's the invisible dog, he does not exist. If it's worked in the past it will take longer, and it may even get worse before it gets better as he tries harder and harder. This is called an "extinction burst". But if everyone in the household is on board, it will work. And in the meantime, use management to prevent him from practicing bad behavior. If he jumps on the couch, keep him tethered to you or to a wall or heavy piece of furniture so he can't. Step on the leash if you need to. 

I personally don't have a problem with telling a dog "no", but in this case I'd be spending a lot more time teaching him "yes". Yes - this is what I expect of you, yes - this is the behavior that will earn whatever you value. And especially with a dog who has been getting attention (even looking at him and saying "no" when he acts up is attention) for acting up, I think it's particularly important to teach him that this is not going to work anymore. By the time my pups were 3, 4, 5 months old they'd lay on the floor and stare at me for hours if I tossed them a treat from time to time because they knew that pestering me did not work to get them anything they wanted, calm attentive behavior is what worked. Even though your pup is older, there's no reason you can't start teaching this now.


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

So it's the third day he's been off leash in the house. I have to say, letting him roam freely is the best decision I have made. He is doing awesome!

He lays down when we are all sitting on the couch, he does follow me EVERYWHERE, but I'm fine with that as long as he is behaved.

The first day, he was jumping on the furniture and trying to get in the trash every once and a while. I put some coins in an aluminum can and shake it everytime he jumps on the couch or tries getting in the trash. It has worked awesome, after just a couple days he hasn't done either at all. This works leaps and bounds better than correcting him on a leash.

I have been having the girls hand feed him and he is perfectly fine eating right out of their hands, however, for some reason when the food is given in his bowl, he still growls, especially at my 2 year old. Once he is finished with his food, he is back to his old self. He is completely non aggresive towards the family, only when eating out of his bowl or when he has a bully stick/bone. I can have my 6 year old hand him the bully stick without any problems, but once he has it, he gets weird if she comes near him. I can take anything away from him without him growling at me, but the others cannot.

He's a joy other than the feeding out of bowl to have in the house off leash. He goes in and out of his dog door for water or to go to the bathroom. Sometimes when we are all laying on the couch, he will go into his crate by himself (I leave the door open) and lay down.

I had his nails grinded at my local grooming place and he totally fine with the lady and man who were grinding his nails. He was also fine around all the other dogs there.

I'm going to continue to have my girls hand feed him whenever possible. The free feeding thing for awhile makes sense as well. He acts as if he is STARVING. It's crazy, he practically inhales his food like a maniac when I feed out of the bowl. And he is constanly on the prowl looking for other food. I'm already feeding him over the maximum recommended amount of Canidae All Life Stages. He gets 3 cups twice a day.


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I am so happy to hear about his progress. Keep us updated.


----------



## mtmarabianz (Jan 7, 2010)

I never understand why "people" make such a big deal about this.

Op stated "only takes a minute or two to eat"

Why not leave the dog alone? In peace to enjoy his food?

I know I take longer than a minute or two to eat, but I sure like to be left alone when I eat; ie, no hands in my food, people standing over me, stress when I eat.

& as a former reader/follower of Frawley, one thing I took from his feeding message:
people create the problem.

Just my .02, 

& I don't feed my dogs together, no stress, peace, & no problems with food/feeding.
Just the way it is, guess the message is Clear to them as well!!


----------



## tuffloud1 (Jun 13, 2011)

mtmarabianz said:


> I never understand why "people" make such a big deal about this.
> 
> Op stated "only takes a minute or two to eat"
> 
> ...


I see what you are saying. The only reason I want to try and condition him is because I have a 2 year old and 6 year old. If they get bit, I fail as a father.

It's not ok for my girls to bite someone if one of them gets near each other while eating or takes their food. This behavior is unessesary and out of line. The dog doesn't have a reason to growl, which is a warning sign before biting. If my family can't walk into the same room without him growling when he's eating, that's not ok with me, which is why I am making a "big deal" out of this.

I have taught them not to go near him while he eats unless I am there helping to condition him. I am glad that his aggression is only with food, however if it develops into something more, that would be a shame.


----------

