# Electronic Collar Signal Detector?



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Disclaimer: This is not a discussion on whether or not electronic collar training is right for some people. That's a different topic.









I am a professional trainer and am looking for something I can use that would pick up the signal transmitted when the buttons on a remote are pressed. Ideally, it would be something similar to interference with a radio station signal that causes a radio to emit buzzing. Because timing is crucial in e-collar training, having something like this would make it a lot easier for me to show clients (who are interested in e-collar training) exactly when I'm applying stimulation, vibration, or whatever, during a demonstration.

Although I haven't tried it yet, interference with a radio or baby monitor or even a walkie talkie might work, but I suspect that e-collars are made to operate at frequencies that would NOT interfere with such devices, so I'd be willing to make something if necessary.

Anybody got any ideas, or experience in this area?

Thanks.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

According to my trainer those things shouldn't interfere with the collars.Older,much older model may but not new ones.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I think you misunderstood my post. I want the remote to interfere with some kind of radio or walkie-talkie, or something, so that my clients can tell when I press a button during training, does that make sense?


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't remember exactly but I am thinking the old collar I had was near 30 MHZ. I will try to see if I can figure something out for you. If you can find the frequency you can program that into a scanner and when you use the collar you should get some kind of signal.... MAYBE


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Rapnek74:

The manufacturer of the collars I use said they run on 27 Mhz FM. Does that help?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGAccording to my trainer those things shouldn't interfere with the collars.Older,much older model may but not new ones.


Wouldn't it work the same way?? No clue just asking.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

If you have a scanner.... Turn it on in the search mode from 27 MHZ to 28 MHZ. When you push the button on the control (E Collar) you should be able to hear a buzz or something coming from your scanner when you are on the right frequency. You may have to hold it for a while to find the right frequency since it's a pretty broad band. It will probably not be directly on 27.000 MHZ but something between there and 27.995 MHZ. 

I can't remember exactly what it did when I tried it but I seem to remember it making a buzzing sound from the speaker on the scanner. It could have been a beep. 

Once you find the frequency you should be able to program that frequency into the scanner and hear it every time you push the button unless it jumps frequencies due to power level or the ability to add another collar. 

Hopefully this helps. If I had my scanner hooked up in my new truck I would try it and let you know. If you can't figure it out or need something else shoot me a pm. I will try hooking my scanner up or something if it will help you.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

It sounds like what you need to do is contact the manufacturer of your E-collar and find out what frequency it is on (The carrier wave/radio wave). When you find out what frequency it is on then you probably want to get a scanner and tune in to the same frequency. You might want to try to borrow one first to see if it works and if it gives you the results you want. When you press the button it will probably deliver static or a tone or a set of tones when listening to a scanner tuned to the appropriate frequency.

If it’s on 27 Mhz as you now say the manufacturer has indicated you might be able to use a common CB receiver to detect the signal of your radio collar transmitter. When you press a button you’ll probably get a noise on the CB it’s tuned to a similar channel.

CB channels and frequency
http://home.att.net/~wizardoz/cbmw/channels.html

27 Mhz is just the band ( a rough frequency range) contact the manufacturer and see if they use a specific frequency. However nowadays they often use frequency hopping so it can be difficult and may not be possible to pinpoint a specific frequency. I don’t know if dog collars are so advanced that they are using frequency hopping yet; but it is entirely feasible.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

A CB receiver is on AM mode while it the E Collar will be transmitting on FM mode. It may make some kind of interference but I don't know for sure. If you give me a few minutes I can check that for you. I have a CB in my truck that will go from 25 MHZ to 28 MHZ on AM or FM... not your normal CB radio since they are set for AM mode only.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

It may also be on digital signal instead of analog signal... A different beast and a different problem. Sometimes you can't win for losing. The older Analog scanner would not pick up the signal from an E Collar if it's on a digital signal.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

My scanner will detect signals whether it’s AM or FM. I don’t know if it’s a fluke with my scanner or not. Oddly enough on my scanner the signals sound very similar whether it be AM or FM mode; this defies much of my understanding of radio electronics.



> Originally Posted By: rapnek74It may also be on digital signal instead of analog signal... A different beast and a different problem. Sometimes you can't win for losing. The older Analog scanner would not pick up the signal from an E Collar if it's on a digital signal.


 I would think that you’d get some sort of report/noise on the scanner whether it be a tone , a buzz or static; that could be symbolic of the signal that is going to the radio collar receiver; whether or not it's digital, analog, FM or AM.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Rapnek74:

You are right. I have a very old Realistic CB, and it has AM, USB and LSB. No FM. I tried it and no dice.

Do all scanners run FM 27 Mhz?

FWIW, I doubt e-collars run digital.

I was thinking maybe go to a hobby store and buy a 27Mhz FM receiver crystal since RC cars seem to run on this frequency. But, then what? How do I get sound? Or, would I then be limited to a light bulb of some sort.

Keep the ideas coming. I need to do something quick, because I can't believe the demand I'm getting for e-collar training.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I realized after thinking about it..... AM and FM are the just he way they are transmitted.... AM moves out and up and will reflect while FM is only line of sight... It shouldn't matter.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

With that being said... My E Collar transmits on a frequency of 27.150 MHZ. At that frequency I received a "machine gun" type sound coming from my CB receiver speaker. I have a tune control where I can tune my CB for an off frequency signal so I was able to tune it in to that exact frequency. 

It made the same sound on shock or beep.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootDo all scanners run FM 27 Mhz?


I don’t think so; though I think most do. You would have to check the specifications of the scanner.

You might want to just go to a RadioShack or some similar electronic specialty store and take your transmitter and dog collar with you and tell them what frequency you have and ask them for help and if you could try out their scanners or radios to see if it can detect your transmitter before you make a purchase.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

You should be able to go to any pawn shop and purchase a scanner for little to nothing if you don't have one. Just make sure it covers the frequency you are wanting. My scanner will cover that frequency and it is several years old.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74With that being said... My E Collar transmits on a frequency of 27.150 MHZ.


What brand collar are you using?


> Quote:At that frequency I received a "machine gun" type sound coming from my CB receiver speaker. I have a tune control where I can tune my CB for an off frequency signal so I was able to tune it in to that exact frequency.
> 
> It made the same sound on shock or beep.


My CB, with the AM, USB and LSB, has channels 1 - something. When I tested it, I did NOT have an antenna hooked up because this unit is from the 1970s and I couldn't find the antenna. Do you think an antenna matters?

But, what a PITA it would be to have to make a portable box for everything like the CB, antenna, and power suppy, and I still have to be around power, too, you know? It sure would be nice if I could find something handheld for the sake of portability.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Another alternative would be to get a second collar and bridge a neon light on the electrodes so people can see the light eliminating when the button is pushed. If you’re good with electronics; you could disconnect the coil and hook in a buzzer.

Why can’t you just use a collar that has the tone feature for a demonstration? Don’t most Ecollar’s have tone and shock options?

If not you might consider using a more advanced model for your demonstrations. They even have some hunting versions that have extra loud beepers (and IIRC that can make animal calls).

I use a sport collar system. My system has a range of 1 ½ miles and has a lifetime guarantee and I can control up to six dogs with one transmitter.
http://www.sportdog.net/Gear/E-Collars/Specialty-Gear.aspx


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I have the Sport Dog... It's the 400 yard (?) version. With no antenna you still should get some kind of report if you are right beside it... just don't key the mic up on the CB with no antenna hooked up. You may have to have the mic screwed in/on to get noise from the speaker. 

The other model I tried years ago was a Tri Tronics if I am remembering correctly. It's been years and I was trying something stupid (don't ask) when that happened. 

The only way it will work with the CB is if you are on frequency that your CB can receive. The frequency my collar is on is between channel 18 and 19.... I could still hear it on 18 or 19, just not as loud as when I tuned my CB to an off frequency mode.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Ok... I put the wrong channels down but you get the point. Just turn the channel until you hear something or you don't.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

This is an add-on beeper for sport dog.

So I suppose if you had a sport dog training collar system you could use this beeper as a demonstrator to your students.

http://www.sportdog.net/Gear/E-Collars/Accessories/SD-AB-Add-A-Dog-Beeper.aspx

Beeper Tones:
1. Low Volume Hawk
2. High Volume Hawk
3. Bobwhite Quail
4. Triple Beep
5. Low Volume Beep
6. High Volume Beep
7. Double High Volume Beep
8. High Falling to Low Volume
9. Double High Falling to Low Volume


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DogGoneAnother alternative would be to get a second collar and bridge a neon light on the electrodes so people can see the light eliminating when the button is pushed. If you’re good with electronics; you could disconnect the coil and hook in a buzzer.


Problem here is that the second collar would not work with the remote used to control the collar on the dog, and even it it were a multi-collar remote, training people on how to be effective with e-collars requires they understand timing, so fumbling with switches or different buttons on the remote isn't ideal, you know what I mean?



> Quote:Why can’t you just use a collar that has the tone feature for a demonstration? Don’t most Ecollar’s have tone and shock options?


Not all do, and the ones I prefer to use do not. With that said, even if I was to use one with tone, tone is usually only enabled when stim is disabled. And, I am not doing demos, I am actually teaching with a collar on their dog, so there's also the issue of size of receiver. While I specialize in GSDs, the dogs I deal with range in size from Lakeland Terriers to St. Bernards. Combine all that with the delicate issue regarding the use of e-collars in itself, and you can see that using a collar other than the one that was specifically matched to the dog in terms of size, strength, and reason for using an e-collar to begin with, needs to be handled in a certain way that doesn't make the clients uncomfortable, you know what I mean?

Thanks for the ideas, though. Definitely food for thought.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Check with friends.... lots of people have scanners laying around the house. If not the pawn shop will have them. The hand held scanner would be perfect since you could give them the scanner to hold and they could hear the report when you push the button. Sometimes you can get them for around $25 at a pawn shop if no friends have one for you to borrow. 

If it's a Bear Cat scanner, lots of them have a sticker on the front which show you the frequency range they cover.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Just found this clip. Almost exactly halfway through, she puts on an e-collar and turns on a "monitor". Interestingly, we're ironically on the subject of CBs and scanner ourselves, and I thought I detected squelching or something in the background when the assistant turns on the "monitor". Is that a CB? Or a scanner? Great video, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EORY0W_Jlxk


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

It could have been either one... It was picking up a CB radio, that's for sure but a scanner will pick them up also. I would say it was probably a scanner due to the noise it made when he/she turned it on. 

I have never heard a CB make that noise unless it had some type of a roger beep installed. It appeared to be hand held so the chance of it having a roger beep are slim to none.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

OK, checked local pawn shops. Nothing in at this time. But, Walmart has this. Not a bad price, I'm thinking.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8402519

Specs are here. Does it sound like it would allow me to find, then preset a frequency? [Just looked at the manual. Sure does.] Think this will work?

http://www.uniden.com/products/productdetail.cfm?product=BC72XLT&filter=Handheld


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Going by the initial advertisement it doesn’t. However looking in the manual makes me suspect it would cover the 27 Mhz range. However I didn’t notice anything about tuning steps. Sometimes scanners work in a series of steps and they can’t tune in on frequencies that are inbetween these steps. I suspect that the training collar frequencies are located on steps ( frequencies) that are inbetween citizens band radio frequencies. This reduces the amount of interference and jamming between CB’s and remote control devices. I think in the US that is the way the frequencies are allocated. Since we don’t know the exact frequency that your radio is on its moot anyway. 

This was the frequency range that was indicated in the owner’s manual. It seems to suggest that the frequency coverage should be enough to listen in to your dog collar transmitter.
25.0-27.995

Like I said before probably the best thing to do is to go to a store that has a scanner in stock. I don’t know if Wal-Mart stocks them but I think RadioShack often does. Like I said before the best thing to do is to actually test it before you purchase it. Otherwise it might not work for the application you have in mind.

Like I said before I recommend you take your dog collar transmitter into a store that has a scanner or other radio listening devices and test the scanners or radio receivers that cover the citizens band range and see if you can receive your dog collar transmitter on the radio.

Don’t you have a world band radio for emergencies? One that includes the weather band, TV band, CB band, AIR band, short wave band? You wouldn’t have to have all those bands; is just a lot of those old emergency radios included a CB band. While it may be an inconvenience that you have to manually tune most of those types of radios; most of them are tuned with capacitors and essentially have unlimited steps so they can easily pick up the frequencies that are between normal channels many of the digitally tuned radios skip over these frequencies.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

I have an ICOM scanner IR-C2 and I was able to receive the signal of my pro-dog collar transmitter with my scanner on 27.250megahertz.

I got out my emergency world band radio but found the CB band isn’t working. Its old; so the electrolytic capacitors are probably dried out (probably much like its owner).

It sounds like a broken static tone


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DogGoneGoing by the initial advertisement it doesn’t. However looking in the manual makes me suspect it would cover the 27 Mhz range. However I didn’t notice anything about tuning steps. Sometimes scanners work in a series of steps and they can’t tune in on frequencies that are inbetween these steps. I suspect that the training collar frequencies are located on steps ( frequencies) that are inbetween citizens band radio frequencies. This reduces the amount of interference and jamming between CB’s and remote control devices. I think in the US that is the way the frequencies are allocated. Since we don’t know the exact frequency that your radio is on its moot anyway.
> 
> This was the frequency range that was indicated in the owner’s manual. It seems to suggest that the frequency coverage should be enough to listen in to your dog collar transmitter.
> 25.0-27.995
> ...


I've called around and in my area, not many places stock scanners, and the Radio Shack near me has one in stock, but it does not have a low enough frequency. I figure for 98 cents shipping from Walmart, that would be the most I would lose, cause at least I can return in at a local store.




> Quoteon’t you have a world band radio for emergencies? One that includes the weather band, TV band, CB band, AIR band, short wave band? You wouldn’t have to have all those bands; is just a lot of those old emergency radios included a CB band. While it may be an inconvenience that you have to manually tune most of those types of radios; most of them are tuned with capacitors and essentially have unlimited steps so they can easily pick up the frequencies that are between normal channels many of the digitally tuned radios skip over these frequencies.


I have one of the ones that you crank up for power that someone gave me. I'll go check it out.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Can you purchase a duplicate collar from the manufacturer (one that would operate at the identical frequency as the collar on the dog)? So you would activate both at the same time.The light normally comes on or you could attach something to the probes to generate sound when they are active.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

No, because each remote is paired to a different receiver with "codes". And, I can't use the same collar on every dog. Different dogs often call for different collars, both in terms of receiver size, as well as model. Additionally, there's something to be said for an owner receiving a brand-new collar that was custom spec'd and fit specifically for their dog, you know what I mean?

So, it sounds like the handheld scanner is the best option so far because it would work for all the different collars I use, and is actually significantly cheaper than a duplicate collar, although I was really hoping to find something cheaper, or even make something myself. But, roughly $90 isn't unpalatable, you know what I mean?


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RebelGSDCan you purchase a duplicate collar from the manufacturer (one that would operate at the identical frequency as the collar on the dog)? So you would activate both at the same time.The light normally comes on or you could attach something to the probes to generate sound when they are active.


I think with most manufacturers you can purchase additional collars. The additional/replacement collars don't come preset. The transmitter and collars have different codes because many of them use the same frequency. So to prevent commands being received by the wrong collar there are thousands of codes. So there is a way to get the transmitter and collar on the same code. IIRC I think with mine you hold a transmit button down while you turn the collar on and hold the on button for several seconds until the indicator light flashes an acknowledgment that it has learned the code from the transmitter. I don't think you can switch collars between brands. There are some models even within brands that can't be interchanged. So you would have to contact the manufacturer of your collar and see if they have a replacement collar for your transmitter. 

It would be possible theoretically to hook a buzzer to the collar by jumpering into the shock coil. However that would void your warranty and be a task that I wouldn't recommend to a layman. In other words is not practical.


It sounds like for his purposes the best solution might be to buy a scanner that covers 27 MHz or to buy an emergency radio that has CB frequencies. It looks like there is hardly any emergency radios made anymore that has a CB band receiver. So in the end it looks like a scanner might be the best solution for him.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Check on craigslist.com Just run an add looking for a hand held scanner in your area if you don't see one listed. When you go to pick it up take your collar with you and search it to see if it works. If it does then you're set. If it doesn't then you don't have to buy it. I am sure that you can get one for $50 or less. If I still lived in SC I know I could get one from some of the Fire/Rescue or Police guys. When everything went to digital back home they all had to buy new scanners to keep up with them. Should be the same way around your area. If craigslist doesn't work out for you just stop by the local fire department or EMS base and ask. You might luck up and save a lot of money.... Just be sure to take your collar with you when you go so you can check before you buy. If you're cheap like me you always try and save some money.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

The scanner you have listed above from Walmart should work. The only reason it wouldn't be if it had the CB radio frequencies blocked... kinda like they do with cell phone frequencies. It says you can scan amateur band which is going to be ham band radios so it shouldn't have anything blocked in the CB frequency range either. 

At least, like you said, you can always take it back to Walmart if it doesn't work. 

Lots of Truck Stops have them also if you are near an interstate. If they have a shop that works on CB radios there then they may have one there used. The tech may even be able to tell you something that would work we haven't thought of.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

OK, so I found a Radio Shack a couple of towns away that stocked a couple of their own brands. What I found was that although it works, I did not expect that it only works in very close vicinity, as in 1. MAYBE 2 feet without any obstruction. Even the handheld scanner clipped to my belt only works reliably if the unit is worn on the same side as the hand in which I hold the collar remote, otherwise even my body appears to block the interference.

I originally would prefer something I could set down nearby while I showed them how to use the remote effectively. Sure, wearing the scanner COULD work, but might not be the ideal way to go, especially if the client is a woman wearing a skirt without a belt because when they take their hands-on turn during the lesson, I can forsee issues with them holding the collar remote in one hand, the dog's leash in another, and then having to hold the scanner in their third hand.









I picked up the cheapest model they had anyway to try it out, since they have a 30-day return policy, but for $100, I would prefer to have what I REALLY want, does that make sense?

After more research, I have discovered that some remote control cars are operated on the 27Mhz frequency. I also found that you can buy the receivers for these types of cars at hobby shops. Apparently, the receivers ahve an input for power and an output. It seems that when the receiver gets a signal it then outputs its own signal which is how the cars are told to go and stop, as well as turn.

So, I was thinking that maybe one of these receivers from a hobby shop, coupled with a couple of battery packs and a mini-buzzer from Radio Shack might provide everything I'm looking for. I could use an electronics project box to make something about the size of a scanner but since the RC car receiver would provide a greater range, I could then have something portable that can easily be worn on a belt, but also be able to be set down in a training area, as well.

So here's the dilemna. All told, in parts required to make such a device would probably equal the cost of a scanner, and if I throw in my labor, it would likely exceed the cost. I'm also not sure if an RC car receiver would really pick up a strong enough signal to "trigger" signal output, and I'm thinking that the best way to find out is to take an RC car that runs on that frequency and see if anything happens when a collar remote button is pressed. My kids have two cars, but they run on the 49Mhz receivers.

Anybody out there have a 27Mhz car they would be willing to try it on?

Any other thoughts would be welcome.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

If you're using Dogtra Ecollars just ask them for a "Sound Box. " T hey'll need the codes from the collar that you're using but they work very reliably for both the stim and the vibe modes. When you work with a client's dog, you use your Ecollar on them that is keyed to the sound box. 

Back when I used TT's I had a $99. CB radio from Radio Shack that would pick up the signal from the transmitter but it wasn't reliable and would only work at fairly short distances. Itb was just a matter of pressing and holding the continuous button on the transmitter while I tuned the CB through the various channels until I heard the noise. But sometimes there was interference from people who actually thought that these radios were for talking to each other. THE NERVE! lol

I don't know if the CB radios will work with modern Tri-Tronics units, I haven't used one for years. 

If you're using some other brand, I'd try the CB route. 

You could always order an extra collar unit, keyed to your transmitter and get a device from Radio Shack that turns electrical current into sound. I forget what they're called but I built one before I found out about Dogtra's sound boxes. It worked very reliably.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleIf you're using Dogtra Ecollars just ask them for a "Sound Box. " T hey'll need the codes from the collar that you're using but they work very reliably for both the stim and the vibe modes. When you work with a client's dog, you use your Ecollar on them that is keyed to the sound box.


I spoke to Dogtra already; they have nothing in the form of what you mention.











> Quote:Back when I used TT's I had a $99. CB radio from Radio Shack that would pick up the signal from the transmitter but it wasn't reliable and would only work at fairly short distances. Itb was just a matter of pressing and holding the continuous button on the transmitter while I tuned the CB through the various channels until I heard the noise. But sometimes there was interference from people who actually thought that these radios were for talking to each other. THE NERVE! lol
> 
> I don't know if the CB radios will work with modern Tri-Tronics units, I haven't used one for years.


Me, neither. Guess that goes to show what we think of them, huh?











> Quote:If you're using some other brand, I'd try the CB route.


As my previous post stated, and as you pointed out, I'm not all that happy with the scanner I just got because of the distance limitation. 



> Quote:You could always order an extra collar unit, keyed to your transmitter and get a device from Radio Shack that turns electrical current into sound. I forget what they're called but I built one before I found out about Dogtra's sound boxes. It worked very reliably.


I would rather have something universal because I work with all size and types of dogs these days, and by having something keyed to only one transmitter limits me quite a bit, unless I want to sit on a bunch of different collars, you know what I mean? It would be ideal to have a universal device that I could use with the clients' own transmitters. That's why I'm thinking about an RC receiver module.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

A shot in the dark but.... Are you sure you are on the correct frequency? What I am trying to say is if you stopped the scanner on the first time you heard something then it's possible you are off frequency. When I did it yesterday I started getting noise from the collar around 27.100 MHZ but the actual signal was transmitted on 27.150 MHZ. If that is the case then you need to tune the scanner closer to the actual signal frequency and your range should increase greatly. 

On that low of a frequency you could be getting bleed over before you get to the correct frequency. I could hear the tone from the collar on several CB channels but couldn't hear it clearly but on one. 

Another shot in the dark is the amount of squelch that you are using. You may need to turn it way down to allow the signal strength to be high enough to be heard. 

I see no reason you shouldn't be able to be at least a hundred yards from the collar with the scanner and get report from the scanner... A hundred yards would even be low in my estimate. One thing you want to remember is since the transmitter uses FM instead of AM it can be stopped by objects in the path... You wouldn't want to be inside a building with the scanner and outside of the building with the collar remote.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74A shot in the dark but.... Are you sure you are on the correct frequency? What I am trying to say is if you stopped the scanner on the first time you heard something then it's possible you are off frequency. When I did it yesterday I started getting noise from the collar around 27.100 MHZ but the actual signal was transmitted on 27.150 MHZ. If that is the case then you need to tune the scanner closer to the actual signal frequency and your range should increase greatly.
> 
> On that low of a frequency you could be getting bleed over before you get to the correct frequency. I could hear the tone from the collar on several CB channels but couldn't hear it clearly but on one.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I suspect he picked up a harmonic (aka bleed over) and wasn’t on the actual frequency.

If you’re picking up a harmonic, the harmonics have a tendency to be weak and have a very short range. Whereas the actual frequency (signal) should have a much greater range.

Often scanners have signal strength meters. If you’re on a harmonic ( bleed over) the signal strength meter will probably read below and drop off quickly within a few feet; whereas on the actual frequency the meter should peg in close proximity and probably still have a fairly good signal hundreds of yards away. 

Often there is several detectable harmonics when using a scanner in close proximity to a transmitter. 

Sometimes I can even pick up harmonics from a receiver. That's much like how a radar detector detector works.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I wish that was the case. I've checked and double-checked and triple-checked, unfortunately to no avail. For example, I get signal from 27Mhz all the way up into the 28 range. Interestingly, althought the spec is 27Mhz, the strongest interference is at 28.045. At least, that frequency is what gives me actual tone mixed in with interference static, instead of just static. And, today I tried it with 3 different transmittiers of various models, and manufacturing dates varied as much as one year.

If I hold the transmitter as high above my head as possible, I get about 5 feet. At normal height, I only get 1-2 feet reliably. It seems to me that they've manufactured scanners and the transmitters so well as to avoid interference as much as possible, so when people like me who want to take advantage of the interference, it's not easily done.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

That's impossible... It's not interference you are looking for, it's an actual signal. 

Something does not sound right to me. 

Lets start over... 

Put your scanner in scan mode with the lower limit as 27.000 MHZ

Put your upper limit to 28.000 MHZ

Start the scan

Push and hold the button on the remote to shock the dog... or tone what ever you may have.

When the scanner stops on that frequency you should push "hold"

Manually advance the scanner up through the frequencies until you get a strong signal. 

That should be all there is to it.



Or am I just stupid? Could be but it worked for me several years ago. 

One thing to add... I don't know if your scanner picks up digital or analog signals. I guess if your scanner only picks up digital signals and if it were an analog signal from your remote then your scanner may not pick it up. I haven't take the time to understand the difference in analog and digital signals. My scanner will not pick up a digital signal. 

Too bad I am not close to you. This thing is starting to tick me off.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Have you tried scanning the entire band to make sure that it is 27.something MHZ? 

I guess it would be possible that it could be on a different frequency than the maker says.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74That's impossible... It's not interference you are looking for, it's an actual signal.
> 
> Something does not sound right to me.
> 
> ...


You are NOT stupid. This is what I did. And, I stepped up and down until I found the strongest "interference". By "intereference", what I mean is that the e-collar signal is really picked up by the scanner like interference; loud hissing and maybe a tone of some sort, depending upon the frequency I set it on. For example, at 27.xxx, I get loud hissing, such as a squawk on a CB. But, at 28.045Mhz, I actually get a tone mixed in, and it is louder than at any other frequency.



> Quote:One thing to add... I don't know if your scanner picks up digital or analog signals. I guess if your scanner only picks up digital signals and if it were an analog signal from your remote then your scanner may not pick it up. I haven't take the time to understand the difference in analog and digital signals. My scanner will not pick up a digital signal.


I believe that it is analog, because there are other really expensive models out there that advertise "digital" in their feature stacks.



> Quote:Too bad I am not close to you. This thing is starting to tick me off.


I apologize for that.







But, have you actually tried what I'm doing? I'd be VERY surprised if your transmitter caused your scanner to emit noise when you press a button on your transmitter at more than 5 feet.

FWIW, I tried a couple of different Radio Shack models, and it was the cheaper one that enabled me to get a reliable signal from the e-collar remote at 2 ft. The more expensive one, billed as one that included the ability to be used at car races, was more money, yet it had a crappy display. That one was only reliably emitting a tone at 1 ft., if that.

Lou Castle actually mentioned in his post something about distance issues when he tried this with a CB during his investigating of something similar.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74Have you tried scanning the entire band to make sure that it is 27.something MHZ?
> 
> I guess it would be possible that it could be on a different frequency than the maker says.


Yes, I have. There is signal at several places in the 27Mhz range, but I don't remember if it worked through the entire 27 range. What's really interesting is that on the more expensive scanner that I tried, as mentioned in my post above, the strongest signal came at 27.035Mhz.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

I am not sure I understand your post. I know that Dogtra use to sell devices called "sound boxes" that we used in class to determine if and when a client was pushing the button. It looked like a small radio.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't know if it helps, but if you are only using it for demonstration purposes you could use one of the collars that emits a tone when the button is pressed.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: If you're using Dogtra Ecollars just ask them for a "Sound Box. "





> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI spoke to Dogtra already; they have nothing in the form of what you mention.


I've got two of them and I know of others who have them as well. Are you an authorized Dogtra dealer. Perhaps they only supply them to registered dealers? If you are, shoot me a PM with your information and I'll give them a call on your behalf. No promises, cause I'm just a dealer. I bet there's some miscommunication going on. 


Earlier I wrote,


> Quote:If you're using some other brand, I'd try the CB route.





> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootAs my previous post stated, and as you pointed out, I'm not all that happy with the scanner I just got because of the distance limitation.


I know but right now it's all you've got. I got around this by having the owner walk along with me as I worked the dog. When the owner was working the dog, I hung the CB on their pocket and then I'd walk along with them. 



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot I would rather have something universal because I work with all size and types of dogs these days, and by having something keyed to only one transmitter limits me quite a bit, unless I want to sit on a bunch of different collars, you know what I mean? It would be ideal to have a universal device that I could use with the clients' own transmitters. That's why I'm thinking about an RC receiver module.


I understand but I think the sound box is the best answer. If you make up a RC receiver module you'll be subject to interference by others using the same frequency. The draw back to the sound box is that you're limited to using just one Ecollar. But since you only need it when you're there, working with a client, it's a simple matter to switch their Ecollar for yours. Don't do what I've done a buncha times tho, and forgotten to switch back when the lesson was over. Lol

I'll start by saying that I know very little about the radio signal side of this, but I think part of the issue may be that Ecollars have computer codes so that they don't interfere with one another. It's not just a matter of them being on different frequencies.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Quote:I've got two of them and I know of others who have them as well. Are you an authorized Dogtra dealer. Perhaps they only supply them to registered dealers? If you are, shoot me a PM with your information and I'll give them a call on your behalf. No promises, cause I'm just a dealer. I bet there's some miscommunication going on.


I am indeed an authorized dealer. I sent an e-mail on Friday asking them to double-check. I specifically mentioned "Sound Box", and that other people have them. We'll see what they say.



> Quote:I know but right now [the scanner] is all you've got. I got around this by having the owner walk along with me as I worked the dog. When the owner was working the dog, I hung the CB on their pocket and then I'd walk along with them.


The reason I got the one I did was because it is loud. The plan is to use the belt clip to wear it on the side that's on the same side on which I use the remote, so the two will be close enough to trigger the intereference noise. So, even if the client just sat somewhere while I show them how to apply the collar stim and vibe effectively, they should still be able to hear it.



> Quote:The draw back to the sound box is that you're limited to using just one Ecollar.


If that's the case, then the scanner is better for my application. My clients' dogs vary quite a bit from one another, so it won't work to have a Sound Box that's "keyed" to a 1900 model, when a client's dog is too small for that large of a unit, and vice versa if a particular dog was fit with a 1900 and a Sound Box is keyed to a 280.

One benefit to a using as scanner is that at least it's portable enough that I can conveniently take it along on long walks with a client and his/her dog by simply clipping it to a belt.

Another benefit is that if I ever come across a client that already owns a different brand of e-collar, I'd probably be able to also use the scanner with their collar.

Can you tell I'm now selling myself on the scanner route, moreso than the Sound Box, even if Dogtra still makes one? 



> Quote:I'll start by saying that I know very little about the radio signal side of this, but I think part of the issue may be that Ecollars have computer codes so that they don't interfere with one another. It's not just a matter of them being on different frequencies.


FWIW, from what I have determined thus far, and mentioned it in a previous post, the computer codes appear to not affect the frequency. Like I said in that previous post, the frequency was the same for three different collars (different models, as well) with manufactured dates as varied as one year apart.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I hope you get this thing working. I have played it over and over in my head. Got my scanner out yesterday but got busy with some other stuff. If I get around to it today I am going to try it out in the truck... It's 25 degrees out there now and my truck will not fit in the garage. 

First I have got to get this house cleaned up. Susie is flying back from Michigan today and I don't want her to think I let the house go while she was out. She would put me on restriction.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74I hope you get this thing working. I have played it over and over in my head. Got my scanner out yesterday but got busy with some other stuff. If I get around to it today I am going to try it out in the truck... It's 25 degrees out there now and my truck will not fit in the garage.


If you have a scanner for your truck, you might have better luck, as far as distance from e-collar remote to scanner is concerned. 



> Quote:First I have got to get this house cleaned up. Susie is flying back from Michigan today and I don't want her to think I let the house go while she was out. She would put me on restriction.


What, are you kidding? This is GSD-related and should take precedence over anything else! Besides, who wears the pants in your household? Uh-ohh, shhhh, here comes MY wife now!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I just received an e-mail confirming Lou Castle's info on the Sound Boxes by Dogtra. Turns out they make them as needed, and they do indeed key them to one collar, which I assume explains why Lou has two; one for the lower power collar line such as the 280 series, and one for the higher 1900 series?

So, if I go that route I'd have to have one of each line of collars, as well as two Sound Boxes, which would tie up in the neighborhood of $625-$725, whereas the Radio Shack scanner I got was $99, but has the distance limitation.

I don't think the Sound Box in its current iteration is the way to go for my purposes, however, I sent them the following response which include my findings and some questions. Maybe they'll come up with something.

Dogtra said:


> Quote:I have spoken to the technicians - it would be possible to add a sound box to the units depending on their serial number. We can also program one to work with your unit.


To which I replied:


> Quote:So, are you saying that a Sound Box would only be good for one specific collar remote, and that it would not be able to be used with any other collar? FWIW, I have a handheld police scanner, and although the spec you gave me for the collars is 27Mhz, the strongest signal comes in at 28.045Mhz. I tried it on my personal collar, the two newest collars you sent, one you sent about a month ago, and another one that one of my clients bought from someone else over a year ago. Same result. Can the Sound Box be setup to work like that? Does anyone there have any pics of the device that you can send?


I'm hoping that now they know what I found, they might be able to make one that is universal, and would work with all their collars. I'll post up when they reply again.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

As far as using model remote control receivers as a detector I doubt that that would work. The output is commands that are decoded from several sub channels. There might be a hobby radio control frequency detector that might have a light, sound or meter feedback; however I don't recall ever seeing one in the 27 MHz range. 

If you still have a scanner or if the next time you get your hands on a scanner you might want to try different modes to see if one of the modes works better. On more advanced scanners you can change from FM to AM (though at 27 MHz most scanners only operate in the a.m. mode). Some scanners also have a wide band and a narrowband selection; I suspect the Ecollar would be on narrowband. You also might want to try the sideband mode SSB (if your scanner has one. I think it's a variation of a wideband mode).

If the Ecollar uses frequency hopping been a scanner or a typical receiver probably couldn't accurately detect it; you would probably have to resort to to a receiver designed by your Ecollar company.

It's also possible that the Ecollar may use ultra wide band frequencies; that started getting popular after I was following electronics community. So I don't know much about it; like if there are scanners commonly available to monitor them.

If you think you can do it without voiding your warranty or causing damage; you might want to open up the transmitter or receiver and see if you can spot the frequency number on the tag or if it's labeled on a crystal. I think it used to be an FCC requirement that the frequency be marked on the outside; but apparently that rule has been dropped or it's no longer observed because I've noticed a lot of the newer radio equipment comes without a frequency or channel designation.



> Originally Posted By: rapnek74 I am going to try it out in the truck


That's a good idea; however in most if not all of the US that may be against the law. The law has good intent but unfortunately it treats everyone as if they are guilty. Years ago there used to be problems with ambulance chasers (lawyers and criminals that monitored emergency responders to exploit situations); so they made it against the law to operate a scanner in a vehicle. I don't know if the law still stands or not. There was some exceptions of people that were allowed to use scanners in vehicles; governmental officials and the media were often, if not always considered exempt. We know that your intent and motive is good; however there are some situations that the law assumes guilt.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI just received an e-mail confirming Lou Castle's info on the Sound Boxes by Dogtra. Turns out they make them as needed, and they do indeed key them to one collar, which I assume explains why Lou has two; one for the lower power collar line such as the 280 series, and one for the higher 1900 series?


Glad they backed me up on that. lol. I don't use the 280 series. I have two complete sets (sound boxes and collars) so that when I travel for seminars I have a back–up in case one stops working. (Hasn't happened yet, knock wood). All the dogs I work with wear the full size collars, even if they're small dogs. The difference in sizes is not significant enough for me to worry about it for the short time that they'll be wearing them while I demo something and then have the owners do some work. 

No argument that it would be more convenient if they'd put a switch on the sound boxes so that they'd be compatible with more than one transmitter, even just two or three would increase their functionality by a large margin. I'll start nagging them about it. they've listened before but since there's not much demand for the sound boxes maybe I'll have to get them to do some custom setup with an external switch. 



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot So, if I go that route I'd have to have one of each line of collars, as well as two Sound Boxes, which would tie up in the neighborhood of $625-$725, whereas the Radio Shack scanner I got was $99, but has the distance limitation.


I don't think it would be that much. More than likely you already have a 200 series (that would include the 280 if you use those) and a full power unit. All you'd need (at present) would be two sound boxes. They're pretty cheap as I recall and two of them would be cheaper than your CB radio. But of course you'd still have the hassle of switching your collars for those of your clients when you went to work those dogs. If I'm working with someone who uses another brand, when I work the dog I put my collars on them if for no other reason than reliability. I know mine work and I do a poor mans's calibration (on my own hand) regularly with them. I don't know about someone else's tools. 

Don't misunderstand, I like the idea of using the CB radio for it's potential application with all units and all brands, but I've never known anyone to achieve anywhere near the reliability of signal reception as with the sound boxes. I hope you're the first!


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DogGone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of subject but interesting to some... MAYBE

I work EMS/FIRE. I took the scanner out my old truck and have not put it in my new truck yet. I think it became law in some states but like everything else, it's rarely enforced. On another note, the town I grew up in was really small. We only had 1 stoplight with about 1000 people. Before radios and pagers became worldwide we used a large siren mounted on top of fire department to call the volunteers to the station. The police officer on duty would sound the alarm. The public would line the street in front of town hall just to see where we were going. You would have a firetruck or two and then 10 to 20 cars following you to the scene. Radios have come a long way in a short time. We started with the siren... moved to using a CB radio (which I have the original one we purchased) then to calling on the telephone and then on to scanners and then to pagers. While I am only 35 years old I can remember all of this happening. My family were some of the founding members of the local rescue squad and were members of the fire department. 


Back to the original subject... I have not tried the scanner yet. I have been working some long hours lately and haven't had a chance.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Lou, you're right. First time out in the field and the scanner failed ALOT. Even when I walked around with both hands held high in the air, it still failed here and there, and it sure doesn't work reliably enough to train owners on how to use collars correctly. 

Re: Dogtra Sound Boxes, even dealer pricing was over $100 per box, but I really don't want to have it keyed to only one collar, either. I'm still waiting on a response from Dogtra in regards to that issue.


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