# Leon and Lady, the brazilian GSD couple



## Leon big boy

Hi folks, this are my Babies. 
Leon - male, 71 lbs, and Lady - female, 44 lbs.
They born at same day but are not brothers.
I got them with 30 days old and they will be 6 months next week.
I Hope you enjoy their pics.
Sheers.


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## Deb

You've raised both of them since they were four weeks old? Are they from the same breeder, with different parents?


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## KaiserAus

Cute puppies!!

They must be a handful!


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## Nigel

Nice looking pups!


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## LBethO

Lovely! They have a lovely look to them.


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## Leon big boy

Deb said:


> You've raised both of them since they were four weeks old? Are they from the same breeder, with different parents?


Yes, I have. No, I got them from different breeders.


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## cloudpump

Leon big boy said:


> Yes, I have. No, I got them from different breeders.


Is that the norm there? 4 weeks old?


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## Leon big boy

cloudpump said:


> Is that the norm there? 4 weeks old?



Friend, in fact the breeders here in Brazil give the dogs between 60 to 90 days for warranty issues, vaccines, etc. These dogs I caught with people who had a couple in the house and gave babies and who usually sell them even to pay for the dogs care, as maybe should be my case, at least for some litters, since some people, including relatives of mine are already asking me to reserve cubs.

When I got these puppies, they were already eating dry food. Actually the Leon I caught up with about 5 weeks and the Lady a few days later.


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## cloudpump

Leon big boy said:


> Friend, in fact the breeders here in Brazil give the dogs between 60 to 90 days for warranty issues, vaccines, etc. These dogs I caught with people who had a couple in the house and gave babies and who usually sell them even to pay for the dogs care, as maybe should be my case, at least for some litters, since some people, including relatives of mine are already asking me to reserve cubs.
> 
> When I got these puppies, they were already eating dry food. Actually the Leon I caught up with about 5 weeks and the Lady a few days later.


So you plan to breed your two dogs together? 
Curious, I hope this translates well. In our culture, dogs stay at least until 8 weeks for the most part. Also, there's a push to prove a dog is breeding worthy by titling. I'm sure you see it on this forum. I'm curious what it's like in Brazil. Differences? 
Different cultures interest me.


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## Leon big boy

cloudpump said:


> So you plan to breed your two dogs together?
> Curious, I hope this translates well. In our culture, dogs stay at least until 8 weeks for the most part. Also, there's a push to prove a dog is breeding worthy by titling. I'm sure you see it on this forum. I'm curious what it's like in Brazil. Differences?
> Different cultures interest me.



My friend, I think it's not so different here. There are many people who only buy registered breeders, with title, history, etc., which I also consider to be the most appropriate, even for the congenital diseases.
It happens that in my case I did not buy the dogs to procreate but rather to guard my house. It is a risk I assumed, I have this notion, and for that reason I have been giving supplements like condritin and glucisamine to them to help prevent dysplasia. I am also not aiming to make money with them procreating because its that is laborious and I have my professional activities, but as they evolve and if they have perfect health maybe allow that they have a litter or two before castrating them. I have not decided on that yet.


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## cloudpump

Do they have the genetics to protect your house? Are German Shepherds popular in your country? Or is it more common to own other breeds?


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Beautiful pups.


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## Leon big boy

I did give them a good Bath, so more pics! rs


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## Deb

Very pretty! Try not to let your girl be bred on her first season, she will still be too young.


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## Leon big boy

Deb said:


> Very pretty! Try not to let your girl be bred on her first season, she will still be too young.


OK Deb. I know that. Certnaily If she gets pregnant Will be Just for next year. 

Thanks for advice anyway! :smile2:


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## squerly

They are both pretty dogs, lucky you!


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## Zelle

nice looking dogs  how old are they again? one still has down ears...hopefully the ears will stand


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## Leon big boy

Zelle said:


> nice looking dogs  how old are they again? one still has down ears...hopefully the ears will stand


They will be 6 months old next week. I Hope too!
Some people say that big Shepherds take more time to stand ears, until 6 to 8 months. I Hope so. Sometime seems that Leon's ears até Just getting up but their grow up, becomes heavier and fall again. I really dont know.

Somebody know If they can stand yet or know dogs that take só much time?


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## Zelle

Maybe you can tape them? I read somewhere in this forum on how to do this...I just forgot which section Dx



Leon big boy said:


> They will be 6 months old next week. I Hope too!
> Some people say that big Shepherds take more time to stand ears, until 6 to 8 months. I Hope so. Sometime seems that Leon's ears até Just getting up but their grow up, becomes heavier and fall again. I really dont know.
> 
> Somebody know If they can stand yet or know dogs that take só much time?


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## Fodder

Even looking back to his baby pictures - they do not look to have the correct shape or form to stand. Very heavy, rounded, set low and far apart. I think you may get some lift to them, but I would not get attached to the idea of erect ears.... I also would not bother taping if it were me. Taping helps ears that are struggling and need a little support. His look like they're happy and comfortable right where they are, no struggle 

Have they ever stood all the way up, even briefly?


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## Leon big boy

For those who liked, more pics from Leon and Lady.

They do 6 months Tomorrow. :smile2:


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## Mudypoz

Beautiful pups! I think Leon is precious with his ears just the way they are.


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## Leon big boy

Thanks my friend. Here is onde more picture from Leon. You guys can Tell me If he is overweighted? If so, How can I Help him? Just Reduce the food or someting else?


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## wolfy dog

He looks too heavy to me. Just cut down on his food. How much are you feeding him per day?Do not exercise him too much as this can hurt his structure. They probably get a lot of exercise by playing with each other. Do you send one-on-one time with them without the other pup present?


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## Leon big boy

wolfy dog said:


> He looks too heavy to me. Just cut down on his food. How much are you feeding him per day?Do not exercise him too much as this can hurt his structure. They probably get a lot of exercise by playing with each other. Do you send one-on-one time with them without the other pup present?


3 cups/day each. No, usually i play with both at same time.

I Think i Will give them 2 cups each to see If Works, what you Think?


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## wolfy dog

Maybe cut down with 1/2 cup. To prevent too close bonding with each other, there are plenty of threads her about raising two pups. They look lovely by the way.


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## Leon big boy

Wolf dog, I reduce for 2 cups/day but he still grwoing. Now 78 lbs with 6 months and 4 days.
What can i do? Reduce even more?
Here is a pic with my son 12 years old.


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## wolfy dog

He does need to grow, just not getting fat. Pet him with a flat hand over the sides and spine and you should be able to feel the ribs and back bones. What brand do you feed him?


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## Leon big boy

Usually i Give them Corn metal, chicken legs and Rice. I made theiry food myself.i give pills whith condroitin and glucosamin too.


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## wolfy dog

Corn meal instead of 'metal' I guess? This is not a good food for your dog. Rice is better but not ideal. The raw meat (never feed cooked bones) is great but it has to be balanced out: you also need organ meat. I believe the ratio is 50% meaty bones, 45% muscle meat and 5% organ meat. Research raw feeding on this forum. This is as much I can help you with.


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## wolfy dog

Just as a precaution: you know male dogs at six months are able to sire puppies? He can mate with her as soon as she is in her first heat, which can be expected anywhere from the 7th month (to stay on the safe side) on.


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## Leon big boy

For those who remember, here they are. Leon and Lady, now with 8 months.
Leon 82 lbs, Lady, 53 lbs.
You Think they are in good shape?
Sheers


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## ilovemygsd

You have a gorgeous pup! I would cut back on the kibble and take him for a couple of walks a day. When he is old enough, get him running so he will not have any problems with his joints. Fetch, soccer and other games will build a bond between you and your pup!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Beautiful pups.


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## carmspack

" gave babies and who usually sell them even to pay for the dogs care, as maybe should be my case, at least for some litters, since some people, including relatives of mine are already asking me to reserve cubs."

"I am also not aiming to make money with them procreating because its that is laborious and I have my professional activities, but as they evolve and if they have perfect health maybe allow that they have a litter or two before castrating them. I have not decided on that yet."

awww NO .


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## Leon big boy

carmspack said:


> " gave babies and who usually sell them even to pay for the dogs care, as maybe should be my case, at least for some litters, since some people, including relatives of mine are already asking me to reserve cubs."
> 
> "I am also not aiming to make money with them procreating because its that is laborious and I have my professional activities, but as they evolve and if they have perfect health maybe allow that they have a litter or two before castrating them. I have not decided on that yet."
> 
> awww NO .


I did not understand. What is the problem my friend? If i Give some cuba to my relatives ir even sell some for who can Care nicely and need them for protection as I do what is the big Deal?

I dont judge other people so easly like you. If you love your dog, take good Care If them, and give ir sell some cubs for who Will do the same i dont see where is the problem, but i respect If you disagree ir dont like.


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## carmspack

I wouldn't care who you are - President of the World and I would still say the same thing.

I advocate for the dog .

I am against indiscriminate , casual breeding .

And yes I am going to say it -- especially since you are in Brazil -- where headlines were made when
the visuals were improved for the World Cup , by having hordes of stray dogs rounded up , and what?

Brazil has a very very very big problem . "Brazil’s canine population. While exact numbers are hard to pin down, estimates suggest that there are hundreds of thousands of stray dogs in the country, with one report even suggesting there may be as many as 30 million abandoned dogs and cats. And until recently, the treatment of such animals by local councils could be far from humane."

It is a harsh existence. Dogs are disposed of, as one person I know who brings some of them into Canada for rescue said - many die of lead poisoning . By that they meant , the bullet . 

If your relatives would like a pup I am sure there hundreds to choose from , already existing and desperately needing a home and care.

You do not need to contribute to the problem .

the pups are lovely -- good pets .

the male with the down ears may be a good pet-dog , but he is not a good GSD.

looks like there might be some confidence problem

conformation is not ideal

you have the stigma of the down ear - even as a pup he showed to have heavy and wide set ears --

and what is his bite ? looks like a lower jaw that is weak and the teeth don't meet in a scissor bite

is there a gap between his upper and lower teeth?

he has too many things against him to be a stud material - not taking all other things into consideration

the female looks to be a better representative -- if you are going to breed at least choose a better GSD
breed representative for her and go forward with some improvement.

the diet is poor --- lots of carbohydrates - corn and rice -- 
you would be better off buying a decent kibble 

the children are lovely.


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## Leon big boy

Thanks Carmem. Very good pointer of vire. 
I sureley Will take them in consideration.

Every dog, like us, as his strongness and weakness features. Its Very rare to see perfection in Nature, as you know.

You have made Very good perspectives about the dogs.

They are completely diffetent in everything. Leon is 
big, strong, calm and very patient but can bem Very agressive when he see a treath, I Saw tath myself.
He talks to me like a human do, barking and claiming when he needs someting.

Lady is small but Very athletic and agressive. It looks more like a real dog, more instinct and confidente that Leon's.

They likes Very much each other, and seems Very happy in our home.

I just Think that this genetic difference between them coul give Nice pups with the strongness of each. Im really curious about that.

Well, i Will let you know when that happen, If they really breed some pups.

Thanks for the opinons and advices.


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## Momto2GSDs

I agree with Carmpack.

Please reconsider breeding this pair.

Also note what Wolfy Dog said back in April: your female will have her first "heat" soon and will be able to breed. Watch for signs and keep them completely separated......at ALL times.


*THE DECISION TO BREED OR NOT TO BREED 

THE FACTS:* It is extremely important to learn the facts and possible consequences in advance if you are contemplating breeding your dog. In today’s overcrowded world, we-the wardens of our domestic pets – must make responsible decisions for them and for ourselves. Please review the following points carefully. 


*QUALITY:* Most dogs, even purebred, should not be bred. Many dogs, though wonderful pets, have defects of structure, personality or health that should not be perpetuated. Breeding animals should be proven free of these defects BEFORE starting on a reproductive career. German Shepherd Breeding should only be done with the goal of IMPROVEMENT – an honest attempt to create puppies better than the sound, wonderful parents they come from. ignorance is NO excuse! Once you have created a life, you can’t take it back - even if it’s blind, crippled or a canine psychopath! 


*COST:* German Shepherd Dog breeding is NOT a money making proposition, if done correctly. Health care and shots, diagnosis of problems and advance genetic testing to determine quality and breedability, extra food, proper facilities, stud fees, advertising, etc. are all costly and must be paid BEFORE you sell any pups. An unexpected Caesarean or emergency intensive care for a sick pup, or even a litter of sick pups as often happens with parvo, will make break – even litter become a BIG liability. 
*
SALES:* First-time German Shepherd breeders have no reputation and no referrals to help them find buyers. Previous promises of “I want a dog just like yours” evaporate. Consider the time and expense of caring for pups that may not sell until 4 month, 8 months, or longer…what WOULD you do? Send them to the pound? Dump them in the country? Sell them cheap to a dog broker who may resell them to research labs or other unsavory buyers? Veteran German Shepherd breeders with a good reputation often don’t even think about breeding unless they have people waiting for the puppies, with cash deposits in advance for an average-sized litter. 


*JOY OF BIRTH:* If you’re doing it for the children’s education, remember the whelping may be at 3 AM, or at the vets on the surgery table. Even if the kids are present, they may get the chance to see the birth of a monster or a mummy, or watch the dog they love scream and bite you as you attempt to deliver a pup that is half out and too large some bitches are not natural mothers, and either ignore or savage their whelps. Bitches can have severe delivery problems, or even die in whelp. German Shepherd Pups can be born dead, or with gross deformities that require euthanasia. Of course, there can be joy, but if you can’t deal with the possibility of tragedy, don’t breed. 
*
TIME:* Veteran German Shepherd breeders of quality dogs state they spend well over two hours a day, every day, for months, to raise an average litter. The bitch CANNOT be left alone while whelping, and only for short periods for the first few day after. Be prepared for days off work and sleepless nights. Even after delivery, mom needs care and feeding, pups need daily checking, weighing, socialization, and later grooming and training, and the whelping box needs lots and lots of cleaning. More hours are spent with paperwork, pedigrees and interviewing buyers. If you have any abnormal conditions such as sick puppies or a bitch who can’t or won’t care for her babies, count on double the time. If you can’t provide the time, you will either have dead pups or poor ones that are bad tempered, antisocial, antisocial, dirty and/or sickly – hardly a buyer’s delight. 

*HUMANE RESPONSIBILLITIES:*It’s midnight…do you know where your German Shepherd puppies are? There are more than FIVE MILLION unwanted dogs put to death in pounds in this country EACH year, with million more dying homeless and unwanted of starvation, disease, from automobiles, abuse, etc. A quarter or more of the victims of this unspeakably tragic situation are purebred dogs “with papers. “ The German Shepherd breeder who creates a life is responsible for the life. Will you carefully screen potential buyers? OR will you say “yes” and not think about that little German Shepherd puppy you held and loved now having a litter every time she comes in heat, which fills the pounds with MORE statistics – YOUR grandpups? *Would you be prepared to take back a grown puppy if the owners could no longer care for it? *Or can you live with the thought that the baby YOU caused to be brought into this world will be destroyed at the pound? 
http://germanshepherd.co.in/german-shepherd-breeders


*Want to become a breeder?* 

Snippets from: Pedigrees - German Shepherd Guide 
*Experience* comes from first hand involvement in the breed. One should seek to attend breed specific events, conformation shows, IPO (Schutzhund) trials, other sport trials and national and/or international events. While observing the breed in action first hand, make note of the names of each dog you see (the good and the bad) so you can reference their pedigrees later. Take note of the good traits, the bad traits, the strengths and the weaknesses of each German Shepherd you observe. Start conversations with experienced handlers, reputable breeders and enthusiasts at these events. Ask them about the dogs, get as much detail as they are willing to provide. Many breed enthusiasts will enjoy in-depth discussion on the breed or certain dogs. Take notes, so that on your own time you can view a pedigree and match traits to certain dogs while putting together the information you gathered from reputable people. 
There is no better way to gain experience than to take a dog from basic obedience to advanced sport training. 

*Research* is the key to recognizing influential dogs in the breed; Knowing what they produce, and identifying what traits come through which lines. Use tools such a the Pedigree Database and the Working Dog.eu database for pedigree information. From there, join reputable forums or online groups with which you can search for information pertaining to certain dogs by name, ask specific questions, and get involved in discussion of various bloodlines and influential dogs. Make connections with quality, knowledge breeders and enthusiasts so that you can get into discussions on certain dogs and pedigrees. The more you read and discuss, the more you will learn and remember. Eventually, after some effort, you will begin recognizing older influential dogs in a pedigree and will know what traits and attributes they could bring to a pedigree. There is a tremendous amount of dogs, and an even more tremendous amount of pedigrees to research and learn about. 



Moms


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## Momto2GSDs

Should You Breed Your Dog Flow Chart: Own Responsibly: Should You Breed Your Dog?-- A Flowchart



From a member here:
By Akatruly 11/29/16 http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/feeding-our-puppy/675578-puppy-wont-latch-onto-nipple.html

I finally came to accept that it was too late. I never realized how hard it is to take care of a litter. I mean, I knew it wasn't easy but didn't think too much of it. I always just imagined a dog having perfectly healthy babies that will grow up to be perfectly healthy adults. I now have so much respect for breeders because I don't think I'd ever be able to handle this again. It was definitely an emotional roller-coaster. I cried so many tears over her as I saw her gasping for air, and even then, I was still in denial and thought I could save her, until I knew I had to be strong. I put her with her mother hoping that it isn't too painful and that she passes away in peace. I just couldn't look at her suffer anymore. 
I was that one person who used to think that breeding wasn't a privilege that only the top breeders should have, but boy was I wrong. Maybe if she would have been in the hands of a prof she would have made it, or maybe if I fed her just a little more she wouldn't have become hypoglycemic. *I have come to the realization that dogs should not be bred, unless they are in the hands of a professional. *I would never be able to do this. As much as I can wish that when I get up, I'll see her suckling on her mom with her 6-other brother’s, I know this won't be the case. 
I can only hope that this beautiful angel passes in peace.
I didn't even name her and I can't say a goodbye without a name.
So I'll say goodbye my beautiful Bella.

Moms


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## carmspack

"I just Think that this genetic difference between them coul give Nice pups with the strongness of each. Im really curious about that."

ahhh - no , not really . 

to even think in those terms each one needs to be as close to ideal as possible .

wouldn't vouch for temperament -- doesn't "look right" -- a bit of that underdog look -

what was the threat?

in order to know the genetic differences you need to know the genetics --- as far back into the history of each one , male and female , as you can go .

you start to collect "big data" on what each family has produced 

you don't know hips -- no infomation . Giving the dog your pills with glucosamine does nothing.

the diet you are feeding is so inflammatory --- expect problems 

you don't know temperament -- 
the "breeders" didn't know temperament 

dogs were given up much too soon , does not appear like they cared about too much 

the male may not be purebred 

but you will do what you will do and life will go on ..


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## thegooseman90

I'm late to the party I guess but wanna cast my vote for the "DO NOT BREED" section. I know all of the tedious aspects of breeding were mentioned above but these dogs should not be bred for a few more reasons. 1) I'm gonna guess that male dog isn't a purebred gsd. Idc what the breeder said that dog looks mixed. Even if he is here's reason number 2) you don't have a clue about the breed and therefore have no clue what you're breeding from or the goal of where you wanna go. Even if you started with superior genes I have a feeling they'd end up mediocre at best after a few years of breeding. If that sounds mean I'm sorry but it's true. 3) you seem to be a little in the dark as far as feeding goes, so I can't imagine that you're an expert in anything related to these dogs. Nothing wrong with being new and needing help but there's certainly something wrong with being new and deciding to breed your dogs just because. Learn the basics, then learn more. Then get better breeding stock, if you really wanna breed.


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## Leon big boy

People, thanks for the advices. Bye the way, someone asked me about their Bites, so i taked some pics for you evaluate and give your impressions.


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## wolfy dog

Doesn't look like the ideal scissor bite. You are still trying to convince us that your dogs should be bred. Why don't you just enjoy them for who they are and if you want another pup, get one who is already born. Invest that time in enjoying, raising and training them. They look lovely but I would never breed them.
You have gotten all the arguments and good advice to know what to do.


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## Leon big boy

wolfy dog said:


> Doesn't look like the ideal scissor bite. You are still trying to convince us that your dogs should be bred. Why don't you just enjoy them for who they are and if you want another pup, get one who is already born. Invest that time in enjoying, raising and training them. They look lovely but I would never breed them.
> You have gotten all the arguments and good advice to know what to do.


Thanks for the opinon. I am not trying to convince nobody my friend. I Just post the pictures to get evaluations and learn from people with much more knowledge as you and the Others.

Bye the way, why you Think they dont look ideal?


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## wolfy dog

Example scissor bite 
https://www.google.com/search?q=dog+scissor+bite&tbm=isch&imgil=DKIgN5ckMIaKNM%253A%253BmIom69Xm5vWMcM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fjanedogs.com%25252Fdog-mouth-bite-terminology%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=DKIgN5ckMIaKNM%253A%252CmIom69Xm5vWMcM%252C_&usg=__Xmt2P99p4f6bLfTP6iUktP7YU-0%3D
or
https://janedogs.com/dog-mouth-bite-terminology/


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## Leon big boy

My Friends, i know Leon have a Lot of imperfections for standart and I agree that he shouldnt breed, but i Stiller Think that he is becaming a beatiful dog, dont tou agree?
Look att his big eyes! Some times he seem human expressions :laugh2


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

He is a very handsome boy and you know his personality which adds to his how beautiful he is.


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## Leon big boy

Hi folks, Leon is 11 months today and has reached about 100 lbs. My son Arthur is 12 years old and 94 lbs. He is a fine Young Boy too, :laugh2:


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## Deb

Both are handsome young boys.


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## Shepherd55

He is a very good looking dog.


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## Leon big boy

Some more pics of my Babies. Lady Very pretty girl too.


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## Leon big boy

People, i was curious about that picture because Leon seems a little more bigger than i expected for his age (one year) and i measured 67 cm and 47 kg.

I know that his ears Stiller down but i thougt that could be to some genetic reason from the crossing in the breed beginning, like Wuttenberg dogs for example.

Well, as his size is praticcally at the top of the breed and he should Stiller grow up a little, you really Think that he could not be pure? Maybe some from a king Shepherd?


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## thegooseman90

He doesn't look pure to me and I'm gonna say the ears won't stand if they haven't by now. At this point, 1 year old, he's just about done growing. He may thicken up and put on a little weight. As far as what he's crossed with that's anyone's guess. Only way to know is to DNA test him.


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## El_rex

Leon big boy said:


> People, i was curious about that picture because Leon seems a little more bigger than i expected for his age (one year) and i measured 67 cm and 47 kg.
> 
> I know that his ears Stiller down but i thougt that could be to some genetic reason from the crossing in the breed beginning, like Wuttenberg dogs for example.
> 
> Well, as his size is praticcally at the top of the breed and he should Stiller grow up a little, you really Think that he could not be pure? Maybe some from a king Shepherd?


I'm not sure if he is purebred, does he look more shepherd-dish if you force his ears up? If he is not 100% GSD, maybe there is Leonberger in him (pardon the pun!). I'd say his face doesn't scream a mix, but his body a bit off i.e the spine and the angle of the hips is hinting leonberger. He is also quite heavily built to be a full GSD (in my opinion), at least for 1 year old he is too heavy.
My dog is even taller than yours (27 inch, 69 cm), but I wish he had some of yours weight...


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## Leon big boy

thegooseman90 said:


> He doesn't look pure to me and I'm gonna say the ears won't stand if they haven't by now. At this point, 1 year old, he's just about done growing. He may thicken up and put on a little weight. As far as what he's crossed with that's anyone's guess. Only way to know is to DNA test him.


Little weight more? I notes that Leon have been close following this Chart in the last colum (First colum its age in months). For that If he is not overweighted maybe he can Get about 20 lbs more. Dont you Think do?

Bye the way, he seems overweighted for you guys? I pratticaly can Fell his ribs like knifes and he moves and jumps Very well for his size.


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## thegooseman90

Leon big boy said:


> Little weight more? I notes that Leon have been close following this Chart in the last colum (First colum its age in months). For that If he is not overweighted maybe he can Get about 20 lbs more. Dont you Think do?
> 
> Bye the way, he seems overweighted for you guys? I pratticaly can Fell his ribs like knifes and he moves and jumps Very well for his size.


 If he was pure then he's already 15 pounds above standard, which is 88 lbs on the high end. If he were to gain 20 more lbs he'd be way over standard. I'm going to stick to my thought that's he's mixed with something. As the another poster mentioned he's built very heavy. If you're feeling his ribs as sharply as you say then you need to feed him more. Don't focus on numbers as much as his health. If he's 103 and never gains another pound he's still a pretty big dog.


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## Jenny720

He looks like he is a purebred gsd to me. There are breeders out there who do not breed to the standard and there are breeders who breed to standard and still can get a pup that is of larger size. His ears might be to thick and heavy is why they did not stand.


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## Kazel

Jenny720 said:


> He looks like he is a purebred gsd to me. There are breeders out there who do not breed to the standard and there are breeders who breed to standard and still can get a pup that is of larger size. His ears might be to thick and heavy is why they did not stand.


He could just be a fairly poorly bred GSD, and the picture angles could have something to do with it. 
It's just weird though, when I look at his pictures he has a thickness about him that makes me think mixed. Just structurally it seems like there's something else in there. There are some mixes than end up looking very close to purebred especially if the breeds are similar so it's very possible he could be mixed.


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## Leon big boy

​


Kazel said:


> He could just be a fairly poorly bred GSD, and the picture angles could have something to do with it.
> It's just weird though, when I look at his pictures he has a thickness about him that makes me think mixed. Just structurally it seems like there's something else in there. There are some mixes than end up looking very close to purebred especially if the breeds are similar so it's very possible he could be mixed.


Sorry, but what you mean by "the picture angles could have something to do with it"? Im brazilian so im not sure If i understood quite well.


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## thegooseman90

Jenny720 said:


> He looks like he is a purebred gsd to me. There are breeders out there who do not breed to the standard and there are breeders who breed to standard and still can get a pup that is of larger size. His ears might be to thick and heavy is why they did not stand.


 if you look at the headshot his ears are rounded. They aren't even pointy. So it's not just that the ears don't stand. It's also not just him being over standard its his build. The female looks pure but the male looks mixed.


----------



## Jenny720

thegooseman90 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> He looks like he is a purebred gsd to me. There are breeders out there who do not breed to the standard and there are breeders who breed to standard and still can get a pup that is of larger size. His ears might be to thick and heavy is why they did not stand.
> 
> 
> 
> if you look at the headshot his ears are rounded. They aren't even pointy. So it's not just that the ears don't stand. It's also not just him being over standard its his build. The female looks pure but the male looks mixed.
Click to expand...

I have seen where you were talking about Leonberger - body wise but have seen quite a few german shepherds one may question if a mix or not they can be over place the regarding looks sometimes. Yes the female has a more of the gsd look. I have seen purebred gsd german shepherds with St Bernard type heads. Can he be a mix it is possible but he looks like a gsd to me. I am not sure where the dog came from but maybe the owners can trace the dogs heritage down.


----------



## Leon big boy

These ears seem pointy? Big and large ears from big dogs usually dont seem pointy. No matter the Breeder says is a pure GSD.

If i get his ears up looks much more pointy. I Will do that and take a picture later.


----------



## Jenny720

The ears do not look rounded to me. He looks like a gsd. Not sure how old he is but if your Breeder can help you tape is ears they may be able to stand..


----------



## Leon big boy

Jenny720 said:


> The ears do not look rounded to me. He looks like a gsd. Not sure how old he is but if your Breeder can help you tape is ears they may be able to stand..


His ears Dien definitively dont bother me. When he was a little puppy his ears closed down and i had usually to clean a dirty secretion inside but now they are a little more stand and exposed to the Air so i dont need to do It anymore.


----------



## Jenny720

Leon big boy said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ears do not look rounded to me. He looks like a gsd. Not sure how old he is but if your Breeder can help you tape is ears they may be able to stand..
> 
> 
> 
> His ears Dien definitively dont bother me. When he was a little puppy his ears closed down and i had usually to clean a dirty secretion inside but now they are a little more stand and exposed to the Air so i dont need to do It anymore.
Click to expand...

Our chihuahua ears did not stand they were paper thin. I left them alone. Surprising they are the cleanest ears in the house. I do not think they were ever dirty.


----------



## Kazel

Leon big boy said:


> ​
> Sorry, but what you mean by "the picture angles could have something to do with it"? Im brazilian so im not sure If i understood quite well.


I meant it could just be the way the picture was taken and his posture might make him look a little different than he actually is. Like with his head lifted up and back. Sometimes the way pictures are taken and the way the animal is posed end up making whatever you're taking a picture of look much different.


----------



## Leon big boy

Here is Leon lying down and when can ser his ear and dont seem rounded to me.


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## Jenny720

That is a nice clear photo of his ears- easier to see he has nice shaped ears. A very handsome german Shepherd!


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## Leon big boy

Kazel said:


> I meant it could just be the way the picture was taken and his posture might make him look a little different than he actually is. Like with his head lifted up and back. Sometimes the way pictures are taken and the way the animal is posed end up making whatever you're taking a picture of look much different.


Ok, there are some more pics. What you Think now?


----------



## Leon big boy

This PIC you can see his face expression and note that the ears stand a little but not fully because they seem too heavy. And i Gave him condroitin and glucosamin everyday until 8 months old.


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## wolfy dog

Could he have Akbash in him or something familiar? Also his double dew claws in the back are un-GDSy. Both dogs look great though. Enjoy them, whatever secret is running in their blood!


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## Jenny720

Oh wow is that a back dew claw or a double dewclaw in the back. That sucker is long you want to make sure it does not get caught on something and rip off. I have heard although not common german shepherds can be born with back dewclaws or a double dewclaws and have it removed. My aunt husky had a double dewclaw in the front on one paw had it removed or it fell out I am not sure I think the dog pulled it himself. I believe the beaurceron has double dewclaws I seen them in person there is some purpose in certain breeds not sure what that is though. Maybe you can find out more about the lines of your dog who has double dewclaws or back dewclaws.


----------



## wolfy dog

Jenny720 said:


> Oh wow is that a back dew claw or a double dewclaw in the back. That sucker is long you want to make sure it does not get caught on something and rip off. I have heard although not common german shepherds can be born with back dewclaws or a double dewclaws and have it removed. My aunt husky had a double dewclaw in the front on one paw had it removed or it fell out I am not sure I think the dog pulled it himself. I believe the beaurceron has double dewclaws I seen them in person there is some purpose in certain breeds not sure what that is though. Maybe you can find out more about the lines of your dog who has double dewclaws or back dewclaws.


The nail can also curve into the foot itself. I would have it removed.


----------



## Pytheis

Great Pyrenees have double dewclaws as well. It's one of their traits. Honestly, the male doesn't look quite purebred to me. The first breed that popped into my head was saint bernard, but that doesn't seem to fit either. Who knows! It doesn't matter too much anyway. I know you love him for who he is, and that is the most important thing.


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## Leon big boy

Thank you guys by the dew Claws concern.
I Will take him to the Vet to see wath he says about that.

The most important thing is that are beatiful and healty dogs Very integrated with my Kids and good Company too.

Its a bit funny to see Leon so big running and jumping the obstacles in the garden. Sometimes seems he Will dont get It as seems so big but i see that is a Very strong dog too. Other day o Tried to pull the leash and my arms still hurt a little.


----------



## Leon big boy

Pytheis said:


> Great Pyrenees have double dewclaws as well. It's one of their traits. Honestly, the male doesn't look quite purebred to me. The first breed that popped into my head was saint bernard, but that doesn't seem to fit either. Who knows! It doesn't matter too much anyway. I know you love him for who he is, and that is the most important thing.


These extra Claws are Very caracteristic from mountain dogs. I got Leon in Rio and there are a big portuguese colony so maybe he has some blood from Estrela Mountain dog. German mountain dogs Also have these Claws só can bem from them too. I really dont know, but im Very pleased by every opinions, Very interesting.
Thank you guys.


----------



## Kazel

Leon big boy said:


> These extra Claws are Very caracteristic from mountain dogs. I got Leon in Rio and there are a big portuguese colony so maybe he has some blood from Estrela Mountain dog. German mountain dogs Also have these Claws só can bem from them too. I really dont know, but im Very pleased by every opinions, Very interesting.
> Thank you guys.


Great Pyrenees has actually been the breed running through my head. My uncles has a Pyrenees mix that is quite similar body structure wise, same ear type, has extra toes as well and somebody I know has a Pyrenees/GSD mix that looks a lot like this guy, is Black and Tan with down ears and thick body. If there's an extra toe: bigger dog like that in the area he's from it's very likely that's what he's mixed with. Some photos make him look more pure, but then other seem to scream mix. Extra toes and what seems to be a lot of extra neck fluff seem to stand out as mixed as well as the ears down.


----------



## Leon big boy

Well, i apreciate all the opinions but im not conviced that hes not pure or pure.
There are some clues for not pure but the main caracteristics is from a pure breed, except for the ears, that could be a genetic fail. Its dificult to see a dog with the perfection to the standart and i have the impression that If his ears were stand this discussion probabily wouldnt hapen, do you agree?

No matter what, i still Think he us a beatiful dog and with great personality. Friend, calm, but still work for take Care from home as he has a strong bark, as you should expect.


----------



## thegooseman90

Leon big boy said:


> Well, i apreciate all the opinions but im not conviced that hes not pure or pure.
> There are some clues for not pure but the main caracteristics is from a pure breed, except for the ears, that could be a genetic fail. Its dificult to see a dog with the perfection to the standart and i have the impression that If his ears were stand this discussion probabily wouldnt hapen, do you agree?


 please don't take this as an insult but he's not an example of "perfection to the standard" He's perfect the way he is, and it's obvious to everyone here you love him, but he's not a perfect gsd. And just so we're being fair I feel the same way about my own pup(who I know is pure) and he does have standing ears. Without a pedigree the only real way to know is to have him DNA tested if its that important to you.


----------



## Leon big boy

thegooseman90 said:


> please don't take this as an insult but he's not an example of "perfection to the standard" He's perfect the way he is, and it's obvious to everyone here you love him, but he's not a perfect gsd. And just so we're being fair I feel the same way about my own pup(who I know is pure) and he does have standing ears. Without a pedigree the only real way to know is to have him DNA tested if its that important to you.


As i Sad i apreciate and thanks for all the opinions. I didnt make the question expecting to be taken as pure. I got what i expected that is Very good opinions and Very Nice observations about him that Help me understood even better the dog and have clues for better take Care of him. I have learned a Lot with people in this fórum and a thanks Very much all you guys. :smile2: 
in some more time i LL put some more pics here for you guys ser his growning.


----------



## Leon big boy

People, despite his ears, Leon structure dosent seem Very similar as this King Shepherd?


----------



## wolfy dog

This will remain a question for the entire life of the dog. Only his mom knows...


----------



## Kazel

Leon big boy said:


> People, despite his ears, Leon structure dosent seem Very similar as this King Shepherd?


Perhaps, that would indicate he's still mixed though if he has the body structure of a king. Personally I'd still think he's mixed even if his ears stood up. It's not just the ears, the rest of his body shape seems not GSD. His jowls, face, neck. Could even be a little farther back. Perhaps one of his parents is pure and the other is a GSD mix.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Leon big boy said:


> People, despite his ears, Leon structure dosent seem Very similar as this King Shepherd?


King Shepherds where created by crossing German Shepherds primarily with working line Great Pyrenees and a few other breeds in an effort to create a dog that looked liked a German Shepherd but with increased size while still maintaining its propensity for protection.


----------



## Leon big boy

wolfy dog said:


> This will remain a question for the entire life of the dog. Only his mom knows...


Woody dog, when i got Leon, i have seen his parents and look like truly GSDs but he was a little different from his brothers. Bigger and fluffy. 

Maybe he got his genetic by an ancestral or maybe his father os not the one i Saw. Who knows. Only his mom know, your right! rs


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## konathegsd

What does his pedigree say?


----------



## Leon big boy

konathegsd said:


> What does his pedigree say?


They dont have It.


----------



## Leon big boy

Guys, looking this pics from Leon as a little puppy, about one and Two months old, somebody can see as helping a clue for a possible mix?


----------



## Diegotxe

I’m pretty sure at some point someone mentioned that you could try dna testing. You can post pics all day everyday of Leon , but no one will be able to tell you 100% if he’s mixed or not. You’ve already gotten response to where some think he’s mixed and some think he’s pure just based off looking at a few pics. If you can’t get his pedigree, try the testing.


----------



## Pytheis

I still think he has some sort of mix. Say one parent is full GSD, the other parent is 1/2 GSD 1/2 great pyrenees/saint bernard, etc. Then the pup would be 3/4 GSD 1/4 ?? which could explain how he looks pure to some and not to others. It could be even more shepherd and less other breed.

His ears seem not quite right to me, maybe too heavy and big, and he looks very thick in the body for a purebred puppy. He reminds me more of the larger breeds mentioned above. I'm just guessing though. It would be interesting to get a DNA test and see what that says!


----------



## Leon big boy

Diegotxe said:


> I’m pretty sure at some point someone mentioned that you could try dna testing. You can post pics all day everyday of Leon , but no one will be able to tell you 100% if he’s mixed or not. You’ve already gotten response to where some think he’s mixed and some think he’s pure just based off looking at a few pics. If you can’t get his pedigree, try the testing.


The test can be a good sugestion. I LL try to know someting about.
I didnt have post some pics but no one as a little puppy and i was thinking that maybe someone is very familiar with puppies appearence and could have some other opinion about the other breeds.

Sorry If my posts bother someone. Its Just curiousity.


----------



## Leon big boy

For example, there is a GSD from an India Guy Very similar to Leon except for his ears.

Can you guys Tell If he dosent look pure too or he is not so similar as i tought?

The big difference is Just the ears?


----------



## konathegsd

That dog looks much more gsd to me than Leon does


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## tim_s_adams

I think he's got some leonberger in him. The structure of his head isn't quite right for even a King Shepard.

See this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonberger

But you know, nao e importante, ele esta bonito!


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## Leon big boy

tim_s_adams said:


> I think he's got some leonberger in him. The structure of his head isn't quite right for even a King Shepard.
> 
> See this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonberger
> 
> But you know, nao e importante, ele esta bonito!


Aha! This is what I was waiting for! His Head always seems a little larger to me at the top and his ears a little more apart than usual.

I Took a picture from him eating and we can see his massive Head larger and rounded at the top, and i got these tão pics from leonberger Head e looks Very similar shape.

Leonberger is from Wuttenberg who is the same region that they got dogs to Mix with Turíngia dogs and make the Firsts German Shepherds, so now i believe that Leon can really got some genes from leonberger from some ancestral or maybe a nearest Leonberger relative, dont you Think so?

Now i believe that Leon isnt a German Shepherd but a LeonShepherd! Ahahah

Thats why i love this forum! Thank you guys and give your impressions!


----------



## tim_s_adams

Ta mesmo ne?


----------



## Leon big boy

tim_s_adams said:


> Ta mesmo ne?


É verdade. Muito boa a sua dica do Leonberger.

There is a picture from Leon as a puppy that at the time seems some weird for a GSD puppy, mainly his Head shape.

What you guys think? Seems a normal GSD puppy or you Think like me?


----------



## Leon big boy

Leon now likes to play at a little children pool. He also seems dont ler Lady to get whitin, rs
Any of you have some advice that i should take about the pool? There is some risk?


----------



## Leon big boy

Hey guys, nobody answer anymore?

Its not a joke. Is safe let the dogs play alone in the pool considering that they still Young?

I think that they Will not drawn but there is any other risk ?

If is a stupid question im Sorry, but there are so many things that i found thinking wrong.

Thanks anyway.


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## tim_s_adams

They should be fine using this pool, my puppy loves them also!


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## Leon big boy

I took the lion to go and buy bread. I do not usually do it but the problem was my poor arms in pain. It seems like I'm pulling a horse!


----------



## Leon big boy

People, since Leon was a little puppy i found a growth table and i Saw that Leon's weight have been folowing the last column, that is, for a dog that when Full grown Will reach about 60 kg or 130 lbs (the First column is age in months).

For example, in the 60 kg column at now (12 months) Leon should be 48 kg and he is 47.5

ALL of you has seem that he has a thick built structure but you guys believe that he really can reach near 130 lbs?

Sometimes i try to reduce his food for precaution to Prevent overweight but i see that he seems getting thin, weak and is Coat gets worst.

In fact i am not concerned in numbers but 60 kg seem too much for me to a healty dog and i am in doubt If i reduce a little his food or let him eat what aparently seems ok for his condition.

What you guys Think? Somebody can Help me about this dilemma?


----------



## wolfy dog

Can you feel his ribs when you pet his side with a flat hand?


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## Leon big boy

wolfy dog said:


> Can you feel his ribs when you pet his side with a flat hand?


Yes, easily. In fact much more easily than the female who is 20 kg less (same age).


----------



## Leon big boy

Wofy dog, Maybe this picture can Help to see his condition.


----------



## ASSHEPHERD

Leon big boy said:


> I did give them a good Bath, so more pics! rs


the female is the lighter one????


----------



## Leon big boy

ASSHEPHERD said:


> the female is the lighter one????


Yup. Leon 47.5 kg and Lady 27 kg.


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## thegooseman90

His weight doesn't matter. There's no need to post numbers after you said you can easily feel his ribs. Feed him more


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## ASSHEPHERD

Leon big boy said:


> Hi folks, this are my Babies.
> Leon - male, 71 lbs, and Lady - female, 44 lbs.
> They born at same day but are not brothers.
> I got them with 30 days old and they will be 6 months next week.
> I Hope you enjoy their pics.
> Sheers.


 almost german shepherd


----------



## ASSHEPHERD

Let me tell you he?s over weight way a lot


----------



## thegooseman90

ASSHEPHERD said:


> Let me tell you he?s over weight way a lot


 read the post again. He says he can easily feel the dogs ribs. That's not overweight by a long shot. You can't just look at numbers and make that call. He's over standard but not overweight.


----------



## ASSHEPHERD

71 lb should be a adult shepherd, in this last picture I could see his mix looking at his neck and the side of his head


----------



## ASSHEPHERD

thegooseman90 said:


> ASSHEPHERD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me tell you he?s over weight way a lot
> 
> 
> 
> read the post again. He says he can easily feel the dogs ribs. That's not overweight by a long shot. You can't just look at numbers and make that call. He's over standard but not overweight.
Click to expand...

I mean over weight for a pure shepherd of his age


----------



## Leon big boy

ASSHEPHERD said:


> almost german shepherd


The Male? Im not worried about that, even his ears. The beatuy in life is his little imperfections wich made every been unique.

Im Just concerned with his healty and help prevent diseases like displasia dont Feeding them too much.

In fact i love these Kids Just the way they are, rs


----------



## Leon big boy

ASSHEPHERD said:


> I mean over weight for a pure shepherd of his age


I Think Leon's genetics is not pure. Maybe 2/3 GSD and 1/3 Leonberger.

I have seem some pics and vídeos from Leonbergers and he certnly have someting of It.


----------



## tim_s_adams

Forget the chart and just look at the dog! If you can easily feel the ribs with the flat of your hand you should feed him a bit more. From a broadside view you should not be able to see more than the last two ribs, and his hip bones and/backbone should not be poking out. Leonbergers are built more broadly across the back, so the usual waist that GSDs should have should probably not be present on a mix like Leo.


----------



## Leon big boy

Leon big boy said:


> People, since Leon was a little puppy i found a growth table and i Saw that Leon's weight have been folowing the last column, that is, for a dog that when Full grown Will reach about 60 kg or 130 lbs (the First column is age in months).
> 
> For example, in the 60 kg column at now (12 months) Leon should be 48 kg and he is 47.5
> 
> ALL of you has seem that he has a thick built structure but you guys believe that he really can reach near 130 lbs?
> 
> Sometimes i try to reduce his food for precaution to Prevent overweight but i see that he seems getting thin, weak and is Coat gets worst.
> 
> In fact i am not concerned in numbers but 60 kg seem too much for me to a healty dog and i am in doubt If i reduce a little his food or let him eat what aparently seems ok for his condition.
> 
> What you guys Think? Somebody can Help me about this dilemma?



Just recovering my doubt...

So, just Feed Leon's by ribs criteria? Its better a few thin for reduce displasya risk or Feed him to get the best appearence condition?


----------



## thegooseman90

Are these the first dogs you've ever owned? Feed them and keep them healthy, don't try to match the charts or what standards say. You don't want him extreme one way or the other. Not too fat, not too skinny. This isn't rocket science. Youre hung up on his size and how big he may get. Proud to have a large dog even. But stop worrying with numbers and focus on his condition.


----------



## Leon big boy

thegooseman90 said:


> Are these the first dogs you've ever owned? Feed them and keep them healthy, don't try to match the charts or what standards say. You don't want him extreme one way or the other. Not too fat, not too skinny. This isn't rocket science. Youre hung up on his size and how big he may get. Proud to have a large dog even. But stop worrying with numbers and focus on his condition.


Yes, they are. I dont Feeding them to match Charts. I Just looked at the Chart to have some Idea about his evolution expectation, but i agree with you. They are Just numbers and healty is real life.
Besides, im proud of both dogs. Of course Leon call more atention by the more kind of desiases that he can have associated to his size, and to me its a bit funny to see him so big playing and his lovely temper, rs
Lady seems a truly dog with pure instinct but Leon seems a bit more shy and emotive with us, even with his expressions, rs


----------



## El_rex

ASSHEPHERD said:


> 71 lb should be a adult shepherd, in this last picture I could see his mix looking at his neck and the side of his head


My 1 year 10 moths dog is 78 pounds and he is too skinny, which was suspected by the vet and then confirmed by members on this board. 
OP's dog does not look overweight. Its all relative to the dog.


----------



## Leon big boy

Instead Just thing about weight, there is dog body structure to support him that is important, no?

For example, im 1.84m and my feet number is 44 wich is 12 at usa.

Look at Leon Paws size compared to my feet. Pretty big too for Just one year, no?


----------



## Diegotxe

His paws look large because he is a large pup. He is not a small breed dog so yes overall he will have large paws compared to your feet. 

Like others have said , go by his weight by his ribs. He will be fine. I monitored my first gsd weight by doing same thing. He was a healthy size, my vet always complimented how fit he looked. You don’t want to over feed. That can cause problems. You will not be compromising his growth if that is what you are worried about. You can also feed supplements as well


----------



## Leon big boy

What kind of supplements are Fine to him? Just the most important, of course.

As i Sad before i give them food that i prepare myself. Usually chiken legs or pig meat with corn meal, Rice and a beet and carrot and a Pit of Salt.

The industrial dog foods here in Brazil seems to have poor qualitaty to me because the feed dyes and preservativs are from poor quality and people say that reduces dogs life. Of course your dog food in usa should be much better and this shouldnt be a problem.

Ps: i always freeze the meat before cook to more safety.


----------



## Diegotxe

I gave mine glucosamine and chondroitin supplement and fish oil gel pills, mixed in with food at breakfast. His fur coat was beautiful. Always got compliments. 

Since you feed raw I’m sure more knowledgeable members can comment on what you might need additionally. I’m not familiar with raw feeding. I’ve always bought commercial and just add fresh food occasionally. Although I don’t think corn meal is good and I think you need some organs as well in your boys diet.


----------



## Diegotxe

You could also check out the Health and Wellness section of the forum. There are some threads you could read that may benefit you


----------



## Leon big boy

Diegotxe said:


> You could also check out the Health and Wellness section of the forum. There are some threads you could read that may benefit you


Ok. Nice tips. I gave them condrotin and glucosamin until 8 months old where the growth is more fast. I Think that now they grow more slowly so i dont Think is needed indeed, right?


----------



## Diegotxe

It helps support joints and as they age to slow deterioration. You can feed him just in lower doses. There are companies that make them in ‘life stage’ bottles. For puppy, adult and senior that way you don’t give too much or too little. Or just one product that tells you how much at what age. You can easily get it on the internet. That’s how I bought mine. There are threads you can look up that other people created that have suggestions on what other members use. I forget the brand name I was using for my dog, he passed years ago. I’ll be asking my breeder next week what she recommends when I pick up my pup.

Oh and there are currently a couple threads going right now regarding raw feeding. You should read them! Other members have posted what raw foods they feed to help keep a balanced diet. It sounds like yours could use a slight improvement with variation, no offense.


----------



## Leon big boy

Diegotxe said:


> I gave mine glucosamine and chondroitin supplement and fish oil gel pills, mixed in with food at breakfast. His fur coat was beautiful. Always got compliments.
> 
> Since you feed raw I’m sure more knowledgeable members can comment on what you might need additionally. I’m not familiar with raw feeding. I’ve always bought commercial and just add fresh food occasionally. Although I don’t think corn meal is good and I think you need some organs as well in your boys diet.


I read something about corn metal and Rice and they seem a good food complement. Of course i always use a least 50% as meat, Otherside their Coat start to Fall. I make sure that the corn meal is well cooked to Prevent digestive problema and its known that Kibble has corn meal too.


----------



## Diegotxe

Depends on the brand. There are many grain free dog foods available now. Or ones that have more meat to grain ratio. They aren’t perfect, but they are better than a lot of crap that’s being marketed and sold, or why people switch to raw. Think about dogs in the wild. Their primary source of food is meat. Rice and corn meal really aren’t going to cut it. To me, what your feeding is basically what you can buy in a cheap or affordable kibble form. Your pup isn’t fully getting what he needs. I highly suggest you check out the Raw Feeding topics that are going on right now so you can see the variety of foods fellow members are feeding their dogs.


----------



## Leon big boy

A simple solution for my tired arms: fasten the tab on the shorts belt.


----------



## Leon big boy

Here is dogs food for today. Chicken and Rice cooked. They Love It!


----------



## wolfy dog

Best to give the chicken raw. I hope you don't give chicken cooked with bones in it?


----------



## Leon big boy

wolfy dog said:


> Best to give the chicken raw. I hope you don't give chicken cooked with bones in it?


Yes i do, but only quarter legs. Why?


----------



## wolfy dog

Cooked bones become too hard and can cause internal injury. Raw bones are fine. What is that yellow color in the pan? Read up on raw dog food on this forum.


----------



## Leon big boy

wolfy dog said:


> Cooked bones become too hard and can cause internal injury. Raw bones are fine. What is that yellow color in the pan? Read up on raw dog food on this forum.


I give them big bonés to Leon that have a very strong Bite. That Yellow is the chicken fat.


----------



## Kazel

Leon big boy said:


> I give them big bonés to Leon that have a very strong Bite. That Yellow is the chicken fat.


The problem is the way cooked bone splinters and break apart. These splinters can pierce your dogs stomach, intestines, esophagus, etc. which can kill them, it doesn't matter if the dog has strong jaws or not. Generally you don't have that problem with raw bones. So feel free to keep feeding them the chicken and rice, but it is much safe to not cook the chicken. More natural for the dog to eat uncooked bones and meat if that helps you look at it differently


----------



## Leon big boy

Kazel said:


> The problem is the way cooked bone splinters and break apart. These splinters can pierce your dogs stomach, intestines, esophagus, etc. which can kill them, it doesn't matter if the dog has strong jaws or not. Generally you don't have that problem with raw bones. So feel free to keep feeding them the chicken and rice, but it is much safe to not cook the chicken. More natural for the dog to eat uncooked bones and meat if that helps you look at it differently


Ok. Well i always try to make sure that they dont compete by the food for give them time to eat so they usually eat calm and more slowly. Each one eat his food apart from the other.

I Think that this can Help to give them time to break ALL bones until convicted that can swallow.

This makes any Sense for you?


----------



## thegooseman90

Leon big boy said:


> Kazel said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the way cooked bone splinters and break apart. These splinters can pierce your dogs stomach, intestines, esophagus, etc. which can kill them, it doesn't matter if the dog has strong jaws or not. Generally you don't have that problem with raw bones. So feel free to keep feeding them the chicken and rice, but it is much safe to not cook the chicken. More natural for the dog to eat uncooked bones and meat if that helps you look at it differently
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. Well i always try to make sure that they dont compete by the food for give them time to eat so they usually eat calm and more slowly. Each one eat his food apart from the other.
> 
> I Think that this can Help to give them time to break ALL bones until convicted that can swallow.
> 
> This makes any Sense for you?
Click to expand...

No it doesn't make any sense. The problem isn't how quickly they eat the bone. Cooked bone is very hard and splinters when the dogs bite into it. That's the danger of cooked bone. The softer uncooked bone doesn't do that and it doesn't matter how quickly or how slowly the dog eats it. 

Also the dogs have different stomachs than us and there's no dangers of feeding them raw meat. Easier on you and safer for them. It's a win win.


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## Leon big boy

People, i thougt that as Leon is more then one year old his growth would be almost completed but i measured his weight one week ago 47.5 kg and now 48.5 kg, and he is eating the same portion. 

Dont you guys Think its weird he still gain 1 kg/week? I thougt his weight gain rate would slow when he completed one year old.

Other thing is that he dosent seem more fat but bigger. His ribs stay as the same.

I should reduce his food or this growth can be considered normal?


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## Leon big boy

Leon big boy said:


> People, i thougt that as Leon is more then one year old his growth would be almost completed but i measured his weight one week ago 47.5 kg and now 48.5 kg, and he is eating the same portion.
> 
> Dont you guys Think its weird he still gain 1 kg/week? I thougt his weight gain rate would slow when he completed one year old.
> 
> Other thing is that he dosent seem more fat but bigger. His ribs stay as the same.
> 
> I should reduce his food or this growth can be considered normal?


Here is a picture from now. He doesnt seem overweighted to me. Do you agree?


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## tim_s_adams

I think most all of the advice about Leon's weight and what his body structure should be has been based on what a German Shepherd should look like. But if Leon does have Leonberger in him, and he sure looks like he does to me, the normal body structure would and should be quite different. A typical Leonberger weighs 140-150 pounds, and they go up to 170 pounds. They are much more muscular than a GSD, so none of the ribs should be visible. This will make judging his proper weight a little trickier, but you can tell by looking at him that he's nowhere near being fat! He looks good to me, and while most dogs don't gain significantly in height or length after a year or so in age, he should continue to put on weight until he's 2 year old.


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## Leon big boy

This Fine boy is really growing up, dont you Think so? Im 1.84m, or 72.4 in. Remember, Leon is one year and 10 days old.


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## Leon big boy

Leon seems still growing a little to me. Seems that his muzzles on his chest and front legs sometimes seems larger and stronger then I expected. O know he is very Strong boy but do you guys that know many more GSDs think this feature is normal to an oversize GSD or is more a clue that he should not PB indeed?


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## wolfy dog

He looks good to me. He is still a lanky teenager and will fill out more for a few more years. Keep him intact if you can for his health. I like him.


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## Leon big boy

Lady is starting to enjoy get into the wading pool as Leon!


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## Leon big boy

Today Morning, Lady happy to see me, Leon 
jealousy dont let she comes, she gets angry and Leon give her a gentle roar...:grin2:


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## wolfy dog

I would not tolerate this. This is going to get worse and might very well end up in a huge fight. He is bullying her. You really need to step up here.


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## tim_s_adams

I'm not so sure...I'd stay out of it and let them work it out. Seemed to me lady was letting her opinion be known pretty effectively LOL!

I think more often than not, people cause more problems than they solve by interfering.


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## wolfy dog

A leader dog would not tolerate this chaos in his personal zone so I won't either. I have seen this in my own dogs. You only give him more power that way. Lady does not look comfortable in that situation and actually shows fear aggression in the beginning of the video, especially.


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## tim_s_adams

But in the end, when no one is watching, they stay together...and we can't, nor should we try to control that. I didn't see anything Leon was doing that was overly dominant. And I did see Lady vehemently defending her rights...good for her! That this would ever result in an open all-out fight is doubtful, unless humans interfere...

Wolfy, I mean no disrespect here, I just disagree.


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## Leon big boy

wolfy, I agree with Tim a lot, they never had a serious fight where one really hurt the other. Leon loves Lady and never bit her, since Lady is more nervous and sometimes takes a little bite on him, in fact he has some small scars on the snout and side of the shoulder, right where she claimed their rights! are great friends. if I let just one at the Kennel the other come beg me to let it go and it's quite funny because they love to play with each other and Lady sure does a lot more bullying in him than he does in her. It's like any couple, have their little mad discussions in the background but att the end they love each other.


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## wolfy dog

I guess I have been lucky and in the 30 years that I have always had multiple dogs, I have never seen this level. Some posturing and lip raising, that's all. Maybe I am wrong, I hope so. Scars, by the way, are not a good sign to me. Keep in mind they are siblings. Male-female is better than same gender but still...


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## Leon big boy

And what about this little couple fight? I have seen dozens, always like this...


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## Sabis mom

Is she coming in heat soon? I ask because while some of that video looks like fighting, some of it looks like she is being flirty and coy. 
Personally I didn't see anything that would make me interfere, at least not beyond a "knock it off!" I would watch it though. The first video he has clearly pushed her as far as she's going. Good girl for standing up for herself. In general males seem to mature slower, so while he is still in puppy mode she is pretty much through with that.


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## wolfy dog

She looks flirty at the end of the video. The rest of I don't like. Too much teeth and no relaxed play. But each their own in accepting of this I guess. I don't allow this.


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## Leon big boy

Sabis mom said:


> Is she coming in heat soon? I ask because while some of that video looks like fighting, some of it looks like she is being flirty and coy.
> Personally I didn't see anything that would make me interfere, at least not beyond a "knock it off!" I would watch it though. The first video he has clearly pushed her as far as she's going. Good girl for standing up for herself. In general males seem to mature slower, so while he is still in puppy mode she is pretty much through with that.


Yes, I think so. Last heat was in August so probabily Next month.

I love Lady personality. Very Smart and strong girl and seems a bit more intelligent too.


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## Leon big boy

wolfy dog said:


> She looks flirty at the end of the video. The rest of I don't like. Too much teeth and no relaxed play. But each their own in accepting of this I guess. I don't allow this.


Wofy, they always play like this. Leon goes on floor and Lady get in top kidding but as shes a bit more agressive, maybe some of those bitches with bit more testosterone, she gets excited.
They loves to play each other.


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## tim_s_adams

When I look at these dogs I don't see any sibling resemblance at all, so I had to go back to the beginning of the thread to double check. Here's what was said:


> They born at same day but are not brothers.


So, not siblings!

That being said, to me it looked like teenage rough play, with a little flirtation at the end as mentioned. In this video Lady did not seem any more upset than in the last one. It could just be her style, or it could be something brewing. If she's coming into heat that could explain some amped up behavior on her part as well. But to me, they seem to get along pretty well. Both dogs look very healthy! Cute video!


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## Apex1

I know zero. I do want to get another GSD once I feel I am where I need to be with my current one. When I watched the video it seemed to me that when Leon pushed Lady to far Lady layed down the law and Leon accepted it. It didn't seem that bad to me. I know other things matter like crate and rotate and individual time to avoid jealously? Just hoping to learn more as I have a male and would intend in getting a female in the future.


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## Sabis mom

GSD's specifically, play rough and tend to be vocal. A couple of healthy young ones can sound like a war going on. In general males will accept rough justice from females. 
I will caution that it can be like throwing matches on tinder to try and add more dogs to the mix. These particular two have achieved a balance and I wouldn't allow another dog to play with them together.


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## Jenny720

It looks like lady is only using her charm when she thinks she might be in trouble of loosing the game. You just have to be able to be sure things do not escalate as it does look like lady is pushed to her Max. Leon is bigger so she has to put more into it. Luna’s will come over give kisses and act all innocent and coy until max lets his guard down and she can snatch his ball. She does this only if she is in a position she feels she can’t easily steal his ball. It is interesting how smart they are. She is not in heat it’s just part of her plan. They can play rough and also get on each other’s nerves and over step boundaries each other’s boundaries if things are escalating - in playing things can get heated I make sure I step and stop anything from getting out of hand. Most of it is a lot of noise and scary teeth. I just make sure I don’t let it get to a point where I can’t stop it.


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## Leon big boy

Guys, these two pratticaly born together. They know perfect each other and Thats way Leon is so confident in give his troath to Lady' theets.

Its like kidding or fight to a brother. You know perfecty How far he can go, dont you?

They have excellent temper, Leon its Very patient and friendly Guy, and he loves stay with Lady and her too. I tottaly thrust these two because I know them and they see me like a leader and a father. Dogs Just need love and respect to grow excellent company, like us.

Lady seems to enjoy play as a dominant girl and is Very afirmative too. Leon's let she gets excited with that but not too much, of course. For me never Go beyond that and thay enjoy to play like this só i dont interfere.


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## konathegsd

These are dogs not children. Two litter mates can grow up together from birth and later kill each other in a fight.


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## Leon big boy

konathegsd said:


> These are dogs not children. Two litter mates can grow up together from birth and later kill each other in a fight.


I understand. Even so Im not worried as ALL the agressive behaviour on their kidding comes from Lady who is the female and half size of him. Leon only Roar as warning and she of course turn back.

I dont see any risk there as the Male never want to upset the female and Lady of course know she can't let the big boy to much nervous! :grin2:

I Think they are quite balanced


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## wolfy dog

If one dog (Leon) comes on too strong, the dog that's overwhelmed (Lady) can seemingly take the initiative to retaliate, looking deceivingly confident, which is actually what I am seeing here. But in reality that dog can be overwhelmed. Once they are more mature, things can get ugly in a flash of a second and maybe nothing will ever happen. You'd be the judge.


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## Leon big boy

wolfy dog said:


> If one dog (Leon) comes on too strong, the dog that's overwhelmed (Lady) can seemingly take the initiative to retaliate, looking deceivingly confident, which is actually what I am seeing here. But in reality that dog can be overwhelmed. Once they are more mature, things can get ugly in a flash of a second and maybe nothing will ever happen. You'd be the judge.


Ok wolfy, i Think i got It.
I LL pay more attention to supress this behavior. Thanks!


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## Leon big boy

Hi people, for those who like, here you got some pics as they are right now.


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## Leon big boy

Hi people, this night Leon and Lady have breed.
I Hope they have healty Babies Soon. They are 17 months old.

Any suggestion?


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## GatorBytes

I suggest that you have a mod remove your post and start a new thread, as this is going to turn ugly and opinionated on a "pictures" thread and will get locked


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## Sabis mom

Yes, I have several suggestions.
Take Lady in and get her spayed right away. Then get Leon neutered. She is to young to be having puppies and the last thing you want is to lose her to complications. Clearly you are unable or unwilling to keep intact animals separate so get them both fixed.


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## wolfy dog

As predicted. Good luck, I hope she' ll make it. Even spaying now is riskier. What a mess you made and then to post pictures like we needed proof... We would have totally believed you without the pictures. Don't call this an accidental breeding; it was planned/allowed.


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## Castlemaid

I'm going to lock this now. No way it isn't going to go off the rails.


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