# What type of Vitamins



## B_White (Dec 9, 2008)

Hello all,

I have been slowly transitioning "Bear" our rescue dog over to raw and I am stuck on one thing. So I figured I would through it out on this forum.

What type of supplements do you feed your dogs? I am looking at supplementing with Vit C, E, Fish Oil, and glucosamine. Would human form be good enough?

Also I wanted to say that the raw feeding has been great for him. He didn't have the best life in his previous life prior to Brightstar taking him in. His hair is almost fully in, he is very very active now, almost no dog breath and glimmering white teeth. 

Thanks in advance


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## RavenSophi (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello and thank you for adopting and taking the time to research RAW and switch him over. 

You should definitely supplement with glucosamine it is wonderful for their joints. Fish oil is very good, it feeds the brain and the skin, of course helping out itchiness etc. If you feed fish oil remember to supplement with Vit E as the fish oil uses up the Vit E and then your dog will have Vit E deficiency. If you start with Vit C start slow as it can be a little hard on the tummy, start with little amounts and build it up to the specified amount. 

I don't have time right now to go into the quantities but I'm sure someone else here...*winks at onyx'girl* would be more than ready to help you!

Oh another good thing, remember to feed liver after your dog is fine with Chicken backs and MM. The liver contains copper and that helps to retain your dogs pigment.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

I feed raw and use the Nupro Silver with Joint Support supplement. I have raised 6 of my dogs on this and really notice the difference when they aren't on it. It has everything needed for a complete and balanced diet. It is especially great for kibble feeders because lots of vital enzymes and nutrients are lost due to over processing of the kibble. It is also good for people who home cook, but also for raw feeders. I hear the Missing Link is another good one, but haven't tried that yet.

For omega's, I use a product called Ultra Oil. It contains hemp seed and fish oil. 3V caps are good also. I don't see any reason why you couldn't use a human grade supplement, but you just have to make sure you get the dosages right. It would probably be alot more cost effective to go that route. If you do decide to go with the Nupro, you don't need the extra vit C because it has it in there. 

You can go to nutro.com and research the product if you'd like. I think others on the board use this one or at least have heard of it.

Good luck with your baby!!


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## Toffifay (Feb 10, 2007)

I just started my dogs on Nupro Silver, too. It's only been a week, but they sure love it! They lick the bowl clean..


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

When people ask me what supplements should they use I ask them back - what supplements does your dog NEED.

How old is Bear? Does he show signs of joint problems? If not, using any joint help supplement right now really won't make much of a difference.

How much variety do you have in his diet? What different proteins are you feeding?

The only supplement I use with ALL my dogs is Salmon Oil. I use this because I cannot afford to feed my pack grass-fed red meat animals as it is too expensive. And I can't feed them enough fish because a couple of them won't eat it. So we go with the SO for the Omega 3s.

Other than that I currently don't use anything. None of my pack NEED supplements.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Wanted to add ...

One thing to watch out for in the 'combo' supplements is the ingredients:



> Quote:NUPRO Joint Support also contains Norwegian kelp, flaxseed, nutritional yeast culture, desiccated liver, bee pollen, garlic, calcium citrate, lecithin and lactobacillus acidophilus.


Those first three ingredients can be big allergy triggers.

Here's another:



> Quote:Missing Link Canine Ingredients . . .
> <span style="color: #FF0000">Flaxseed</span>, <span style="color: #FFCC33">Rice Bran</span>, <span style="color: #FF0000">Primary Dried Yeast</span>, <span style="color: #CC6600">Cane Molasses</span>, Sunflower Seed, Freeze Dried Beef Liver, <span style="color: #FF0000">Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal</span>, Dried Carrot, Ground Beef Bone*, Dried Fish Solubles, <span style="color: #FF0000">Ground Barley Grass, Dried Kelp</span>, Freeze Dried Oyster Powder, Zinc Monomethionine, Lecithin, <span style="color: #FF0000">Chromium Yeast, Selenium Yeast</span>, Niacin (Vitamin B3), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Garlic Powder, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Folic Acid, and Vitamin B12 Supplement.


The reds are potential allergy triggers, the yellow is a CARB and the organe is a sugar.

Again - waaay more junk than I want to be feeding my dogs. The whole reason I feed raw is so that *I* control what goes in them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Quote:
> If you feed fish oil remember to supplement with Vit E as the fish oil uses up the Vit E and then your dog will have Vit E deficiency.


Lauri..what is your opinion of the above? Is the deficiency enough to supplement for or will they get the necessary Vit E from the diet? It must also depend on what you feed, correct?

Is it beneficial to start glucosomine/chrodroiton (spelling?) when they are young to deter joint problems later? I worry about this because that's why we had to let my collie go.

What about antioxidants? C? or E? Is one better than the other?


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

I wrote to Nupro about the yeast in their supplement. They claim that because it is made from a culture, that it doesn't trigger allergies like regular yeast. I haven't met too many dogs that have allergies to the Nupro, but Storm does seem to itch a bit when I give it to him, then when I take him off of it, the itching isn't as bad, so it might be an allergy to the Nupro. The other 4 are okay on it. I guess you just have to try it and see.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

We have been feeding the Nupro Silver Joint for years, both when we fed kibble and now on raw. We've been very happy with it and never had any allergy problems at all, so we continue to use it with our raw diet.

We also supplement with Ester C, Vit E and fish oil.

Though now only our 3 young dogs get the fish oil as we noticed it seemed to aggrivate arthritis in our 3 seniors, so we stopped with the fish oil for them. I've heard that for some unknown reason this isn't uncommon for fish oil to aggrivate arthritis.









Our 3 seniors also get additional joint supplements (glucosamine, chondritin, MSM).


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> 
> > Quote:
> ...


I would say it all depends on how much oil you are giving a dog.

I have to say that while I have also heard about giving Vit E with fish oil I have never seen anything that explains the facts behind that statement. Does anyone have any links?



> Quote:Is it beneficial to start glucosomine/chrodroiton (spelling?) when they are young to deter joint problems later? I worry about this because that's why we had to let my collie go.


IMHO it's not really helping _prevent_ problems. Joint problems are caused by either hereditary conditions (hip dysplasia) or injuries.

If your dog has neither than using those supplements won't really do anything.

Now, if your dog DOES have a problem then yes, I would definitely use them.



> Quote:What about antioxidants? C? or E? Is one better than the other?


Back to my opinion ... if you feed a varied diet then you really don't need to supplement the basics.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

From 

http://www.oilofpisces.com/vitamine.html

"Fish oils are beneficial in the prevention of cancer and cardiovascular disease. They do, however, oxidize very easily and therefore add to the oxidant stress on the body. An experiment was recently carried out by the U.S. Department of Agriculture to see if an increased intake of vitamin E could counteract this detrimental effect of fish oils."

Also omega-6's and omega-3's need to be in the correct balance. If they aren't it will trigger an inflammatory effect and can aggravate arthritis. A lot of kibbles do not list their omega 3 and 6 percentages on the bag. But the ratio is 5:1 to 10:1 omega-6 to omega-3.

I usually use the pump-type of Salmon Oil - it also has the vitamin E in the correct balance so it saves giving 2 pills.

I have one dog with HD who gets "Joint Strong" and Ester C. Although she doesn't show any pain I want to be sure I'm doing all I can for her. The JointStrong made an amazing difference in my parents' newfoundland. She tore her ACL and was in a lot of pain and nothing else helped her. Last month she started being unable to get up and was in a huge amount of pain again. I asked them if they'd changed anything and my mom admitted that they'd stopped giving her the Joint Strong. Once they started giving to to her she was back to normal. So I feel like it's something that really works.

If I am doing a lot of training I will also supplement Kessy with K9 Go Dog or Superfuel. Other than that she just gets the salmon oil.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

This is where it gets confusing ...

From the same website (emphasis is mine):



> Quote:The researchers noted substantial increases in blood plasma levels of EPA (from 0.110 to 0.734 mmol/L) and DHA (from 0.283 to 0.515 mmol/L). They also observed an average drop in triglyceride concentrations of almost 30%. Vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) levels rose by about 50% after supplementation with 100 mg/day (50 IU) of alpha-tocopherol-acetate and by about 69% after supplementation with 400 mg/day (200 IU). The increase in alpha-tocopherol level was accompanied by a significant decrease in gamma-tocopherol level. The researchers evaluated the effect of supplementation on lipid oxidation (TBARS) and protein oxidation (carbonyl groups). They did not observe any increased protein oxidation, but did find a small but statistically significant increase in TBARS concentration after fish oil supplementation; they dismiss this finding as being likely to be clinically irrelevant. The size of the increase did not change with increased vitamin E intake. *The researchers conclude, �If fish oil consumption does not cause an increase in oxidation as measured by protein carbonyls, then an increased intake of vitamin E [during fish oil supplementation] is not necessary.*�
> Higdon, Jane V., et al. Supplementation of postmenopausal women with fish oil rich in eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid is not associated with greater in vivo lipid peroxidation compared with oils rich in oleate and linoleate as assessed by plasma malondialdehyde and F2-isoprostanes. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 72, September 2000, pp. 714-22
> Wander, Rosemary C. and Du, Shi-Hua. Oxidation of plasma proteins is not increased after supplementation with eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 72, September 2000, pp. 731-37


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I don't know if this is on topic but the fish oil I feed Jerzey (human 1200 mg pills) says to take 1-2 pills, 2x a day. Currently, I just feed her two in the morning with her kibble. I'm still torn as to whether or not this is an appropriate dosage... considering she is 80+ lbs I felt like half a human dosage would be sufficient since she's nearly the weight of an adult human!









I guess I need to look into getting Vit E after reading that study. I always heard things but hadn't actually seen anything definitive before. Thanks so much for the link, phgsd!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangThis is where it gets confusing ...
> 
> From the same website (emphasis is mine):
> 
> ...


Hm, missed that part. How can we even _know_ that?!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

One study says YES, one study says NO to the need to add Vit E.

That's helpful.


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## RavenSophi (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> I have to say that while I have also heard about giving Vit E with fish oil I have never seen anything that explains the facts behind that statement. Does anyone have any links?


I am at work at the moment, my research is at home. I will post some links etc when I get home.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Like all medical studies I'm sure there is never a conclusive answer.


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## B_White (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks all for your input it is greatly appreciated, and informative.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

Some fish oils have vit e already added in. when I had my Shadow on the 3v Caps, they had added vit e in them.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: crazyboutgsd'sSome fish oils have vit e already added in. when I had my Shadow on the 3v Caps, they had added vit e in them.


Yeah... I tried to find one at Walmart that already had Vit E but had no luck.







I can just get them next time around, I guess.


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