# Craiglist and puppies.



## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

Just ranting a bit, sorry it's long! 

Why do breeders, or should i say BYBs? sell their puppies on craiglist. 

An in-law of mine had recently purchase a 5 week old Chihuahua puppy for only $150.00. I have tried talking her out of it until my face turned blue. I've tried to push her to a Chihuahua rescue and have noted that they are way too over populated. Even explain how California just recently went through with trying to re-home a bunch of Chihuahuas that they had to spread them across the united states for them to go to a rescue. 

At first she wanted a sheltie, i know a couple of reputable sheltie breeders that compete in AKC shows and their dogs have agility titles, and herding titles. But her gripe was they charge too much. She does not want to spend more than $150.00 on a dog!. I said you get what you pay for in a long run. So she ended up changing her mind on a sheltie and was looking high and low for a chihuahua only because she saw a really well behaved one at canine good citizen class. I've told her that the owner probably put alot of work into that dog and it probably came from a reputable breeder if not from a rescue or shelter. Of course anything i say goes into one ear and out the other.

Well while visiting this in-law about a couple months ago, it was just her and I while Hubby went out with the boys. She out of the blue says " I found a chi for 150.00 on craig list want to come with?" 

I could not say anything, i was speechless but i went with her anyway to look at this chi. Upon arriving at this breeders place i saw many red flags. Number one, the in-law did not ask for health papers or any of that,nor the breeder gave her any health papers, vet records etc etc.. It was a quick exchange, almost like you're trading in for a car. Sad sad sad thing to see. The breeder showed no concerned where this puppy was going and how it was going to be taken care of. Number two, the father of this Chi that the in-law was getting growled at ME! yes GROWLED at me and my in law is totally oblivious to that!. All i could do was bite my tongue.

Several weeks later upon having this pup, the in-law found out the breeder's dogs have never seen a vet!!. Also this new pup just recently injured herself because the breeder was puppy sitting while the in-law went on vacation. When she came back her precious new pup now has a broken leg.

I see bad bad bad things happening. I didn't say anything because anything i say will just go into one ear and out the other and i didn't want to create tension. I figured that once things start happening she'll see the mistakes she made. I told my Hubby that she made the bed now she has to lay in it. All i can do right now is try to support her if she's having trouble with this puppy. At the same time it bugs me to no end that this puppy was bought off of craig list!. The breeder ended up selling the parents because the husband supposedly had developed allergies. 

Of course my in-law probably doesn't see anything wrong with getting puppies off of craiglist or even a newspaper. Just the other day, she knows i'm looking around for a 3rd dog but i didn't mention what breed. She says to me " there's a German Shepherd up on craig list for $200". I just kept quiet and shook my head. She even pointed out that there's a sheltie for sale for 100 in the newspaper.

I really wish Craiglist would ban selling puppies on their site. It just really bugs me to see that. 

Am i the only one that think it's nuts for people to think it's ok to sell puppies on there and for people to buy it from the list?...


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I thought craigslist did have a policy about selling dogs? I know alot get flagged and removed because it is against the rule.

The only exception I think is for a rescue dog and an adoption fee.


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## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

GSDolch said:


> I thought craigslist did have a policy about selling dogs? I know alot get flagged and removed because it is against the rule.
> 
> The only exception I think is for a rescue dog and an adoption fee.


Maybe not in every state?.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

it's in every state, but they pretty much count on other customers to police the site by flagging the ads. 

plus, people like that generally don't care about the rules. when one ad gets deleted, they just post a new one.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

On Craigslist, SELLING animals is prohibited, but you can charge a rehoming fee.

We had to rehome 2 chocolate lab mixes on there (just sent the youngest to her home a few minutes ago) because their owner died and his family wanted to take them to the pound. My mom couldn't allow that to happen, so we put a few ads on CL for them and found the both good homes. My mom told them that if they didn't want them or it didn't work out, that she'd take them back.

So dogs on CL aren't always bad - just when the BYBs use it to sell their pups....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Good home is the key, and most byb's just want the $ so aren't very particular where their pups end up. They probably end up on CL again, and again. 
My local CL has so many "police" it is surprising there are any ads at all.
And there are those that post nasty comments constantly.
But we also have several rescues, too. So there are many advocates for the animals in my land, luckily. So many still slip thru the cracks...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Even though selling animals is prohibited they do it because it works. Unfortunately!


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Well.. I got Zeva on CL. I paid 300 for her and yeah, that's a lot. She was a BYB, which I didn't know at the time. 

She came w/ worms and fleas, both of which have been resolved. She said she was trying to sell them for 600 but w/o papers, could not get that much. 

She said she was training Zeva to be a service dog but had to give her up do to taking on an ill aunt. 

She did come crate trained, like she said, she did know sit, down and shake. She was 1/2 potty trained. 

She's a wonderful dog, and I don't think I paid to much for her. I would do it again in a heart beat. 

yeah, maybe the lady was looking out to make a buck, but I got a great dog at a great price. I've rescued 2 dogs already, I kinda feel I did w/ Zeva too because who knows where she would have ended up if I didn't see the post as soon as she posted it. I couldn't be happier w/ her. So far she's very healthy and happy. Non aggressive and seeming to be a well built, well balance dog. 

We are thinking about adding another one at some point and I'm going to try and find a shelter dog or a rescue, but if one comes about on CL looking for a new home, I would most likely go w/ it if he/she was ok w/ Zeva and the family. 

It's not the dog's fault that the owners are buttholes and are trying to make a buck. 

All the flagging does is make ppl get desperate to dump off animals and then end up in shelters and in ditches on the side of roads.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

BYB's use Craigslist because it works and it is free. It is one of my pet peeves that Craigslist makes it so easy for the bottom feeders to make a quick buck. 

As long as people continue to give money to these idiots, they'll continue to use Craigslist as their advertising avenue of choice. As long as they can keep selling pups (no matter how "discounted" they claim their price is), they'll keep producing them. And THAT sucks for the animals and the community that is flooded with them
Sheilah


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

sit said:


> BYB's use Craigslist because it works and it is free. It is one of my pet peeves that Craigslist makes it so easy for the bottom feeders to make a quick buck.
> 
> As long as people continue to give money to these idiots, they'll continue to use Craigslist as their advertising avenue of choice.
> Sheilah



Guess that's me, feeding the idiots. Some people, believe it or not, don't know any better. I know for a fact that my other two girls had to have come form BYB and just lived out their breeding cycle and were dumped off in shelters.

I don't think that I should be looked down upon because of where I got my dog and here, when ppl mention CL, that's the feeling I get. I shouldn't have to hide where I got her for fear of ppl thinking poorly of me or my dog.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

FuryanGoddess said:


> Guess that's me, feeding the idiots. Some people, believe it or not, don't know any better. I know for a fact that my other two girls had to have come form BYB and just lived out their breeding cycle and were dumped off in shelters.
> 
> I don't think that I should be looked down upon because of where I got my dog and here, when ppl mention CL, that's the feeling I get. I shouldn't have to hide where I got her for fear of ppl thinking poorly of me or my dog.


I don't think you should be ashamed of where you got your dog, either. But now that you know there are better options, options that support good shelters and rescues, wouldn't those other options be your first consideration next time you add a dog to your family?

My frustration with Craigslist doesn't come from people who unwittingly support the really, really poor breeding practices that dominate that site. People like you, for instance, that just wanted a nice puppy. My frustration comes from knowing that as long as that system continues to work for these breeders, they'll continue to pump out puppy after puppy. Which leads to many of the dogs they produce not having optimum lives, and can lead to many regional shelters and rescues picking up the pieces.

I was certainly not looking down on your puppy! I am sure your puppy is awesome. But the way Craigslist is misused by bottom feeder breeders sucks.
Sheilah


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I understand that. the way i look at it, BYB were around LONG before CL. They found a away. In parking lots w/ a box of dogs. Impulse buying, even more so cause the kids are there, looking, crying, and begging. 

Shisters will always find a way to make the money.. that's what they poor all their energy into instead of finding real jobs. 

To be fair, my hubs said the lady we got Zeva off of looked pretty low income so she must not have been making too much.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

FuryanGoddess said:


> I understand that. the way i look at it, BYB were around LONG before CL. They found a away. In parking lots w/ a box of dogs. Impulse buying, even more so cause the kids are there, looking, crying, and begging.
> 
> Shisters will always find a way to make the money.. that's what they poor all their energy into instead of finding real jobs.
> 
> To be fair, my hubs said the lady we got Zeva off of looked pretty low income so she must not have been making too much.


Yep, Craigslist is just the latest advertising stop for BYB's. The site surly did not create the problem. BUT...Craigslist makes it that much easier for them to make a few bucks, which in turn encourages them to continue breeding. They don't even have to spend the few dollars that a newspaper ad would cost. Less overhead. Think of Craigslist as a virtual parking lot, to continue on with your own analogy. 

I am all for supporting good breeders who do the job right. But Craigslist is not the place to go for a puppy, and breeders that "advertise" there should not be supported.

I am glad that your pup has landed in a good home and that you love her. But I hope that you wouldn't encourage anyone to buy from a CL breeder, even if your experience has been a positive one so far. 
Sheilah


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I refer ppl looking for GSD puppies on CL to rescues and shelters. It's all I can do.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The lady you got Zeva from, may have looked low income, because unfortunately, it fits the stereotype...breed to make $ even if it is just a couple hundred. When I was volunteering weekly at adoption events, you wouldn't believe the amount of people who came in to scope out prospective "breeding" stock(even though the SPCA has contractual spay/neuter policy)...If I lived in the land of puppy mills I would probably go a bit crazy and it wouldn't be good.
I still cannot believe that millers are not extinct.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

PA is a bad state for mills, from what I understand


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

not to be stereotypical, but any area with a large Amish population tends to be heavy on the puppy mills. So, yeah, PA definitely fits. 

I agree that there is nothing wrong with getting a dog from Craig's List. You can even rescue one without supporting a puppy mill or BYB. There are many posts from people looking to rehome a single dog. There have been ads linked here to the rescue section. One was a foreclosed house; the buyer arrived to find that the old owners had left 4 GSDs penned in the back yard. That is a legit use for Craig's List. 

Also, in the case of your pup, the woman probably profited the entire amount. It's doubtful that the bitch had any vet care while pregnant. No worming or first shots for the pups. No vet check-ups. The food was probably the cheapest she could get and fed them as little as possible. I know that is the way people around here do it. And, of course, they always say they are at a discount.

Our wal-mart parking lot has an empty lot between it and the next occupied store. That lot is full in all but the dead of winter with people selling pups. $250 will get you everything from a Husky to a GSD to a Borkie (beagle/yorkie). There is a car lot/repair shop in town that always uses its sign to advertise the owners latest litter of pups. They breed yorkies and yorkie mixes. Since they seem to have litters 365 days a year, who knows how many dogs they have???


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## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

FuryanGoddess said:


> I don't think that I should be looked down upon because of where I got my dog and here, when ppl mention CL, that's the feeling I get. I shouldn't have to hide where I got her for fear of ppl thinking poorly of me or my dog.


Don't feel bad, at least you know the difference of a bad or good/decent breeder. My in law in the other hand she just wanted a puppy and it was a spur of the moment kind of thing. If a family gets a dog she needs to get one, if they start getting a 2nd dog she feels the need to get another one.

I really feel bad for this Chi though, it's not her fault that she was born and it's just drives me crazy that this in law went this route. If she can't afford more than 150.00 for a dog how is she going to afford vet bills?. I haven't heard from her in a past few days after she said she needed to take the pup in to the vets because of a injured leg. I got this gut feeling that she's thinking about returning the pup back to the breeder. But we'll see if my gut is right or wrong .

I don't think anyone is looking down on you.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

> If she can't afford more than 150.00 for a dog how is she going to afford vet bills?


See, this always made me scratch my head. There is NO way on this Earth that I could swing 1700+ for a dog. I have a house, three kids and only my hubs works. I'm a stay at home mom. BUT we CAN afford a 150-200 dollar vet bill once a year. HUGE difference. You STILL have to take a 1700+ dog to the vet so that's even more money. That is more than out of our price range and truthfully, I don't think money always buys the better dog. How many people have been injured by good bred dogs? A lot, I"m sure. I'm also sure that a lot have been injured by muts or BYB dogs. 

Sure, genetics play a part in dogs temperament, that's proven, but it's not the ONLY thing. 

My hubs first dog was a GSD/Husky mix. Good dog, but he got killed, hit by some guy in front of my hubs, and never stopped. It was the one and only time that he crossed the road and he was following the scent of another dog that had crossed our yard. 

We decided to call the man he got the dog from to see if he had any more pups, the guy just had two dogs and they had pups when the bitch went into heat I guess. Anyway, there was another litter, we got the dog, same parents, totally different temperament and behavior. Yeah, they shouldn't have been having pups all the time, that's not the debate, the debate is, that you can have totally different personalities w/ the same parents. They were not litter mates but they were still full blooded brothers. 

We did find a new home for that dog, he just didn't fit our family and I had my first child. We got Sadie the next year and have tried to stick w/ GSD's since. 

Where we came from, how we grew up, it was unheard of that people paid for pets. Maybe we're backwoods? I don't know but when you wanted a dog or a cat, you found someone that had a litter and usually got them for free. It's just how things were done.

Yes, now we know better, now we're more educated, and now we can choose as adults to help shelter or rescue animals or some poor pet on CL that the owner doesn't have time for anymore. 

I inquired last night about a 2 1/2 y M Papered GSD that is 'stuck in the crate all day because I work' and he 'needs someone to spend time with him and room to run and play'. Oh and he's free. 

Yeah, it makes me wonder what is wrong w/ the dog, but ... you know what No dog is perfect. Maybe he just needs a little love and room to run and play? We'll see. 

Some ppl on CL are overboard w/ the flagging and they are doing nothing but hurting the animals. Yes, BYB use it as a tool but like I said before.. I"m sure they'd find another way to sell their pups and if not, they'll sell what they can and then dump them off in a shelter to die.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

FuryanGoddess said:


> Some ppl on CL are overboard w/ the flagging and they are doing nothing but hurting the animals. Yes, BYB use it as a tool but like I said before.. I"m sure they'd find another way to sell their pups and if not, they'll sell what they can and then dump them off in a shelter to die.


the problem, though, is if someone buys the pups at even $150, then they are going to have a second letter of puppies. and a third litter. And since 99% of those homes aren't screened, all they care is that they have cash in hand, those pups will STILL end up in the pound/rescue. Except now instead of 7 pups (1 litter) you have 21 or more!!

so, by flagging the ads and making life more difficult for the breeders, then they are helping to ensure that they don't keep having litter after litter.

I grew up the same as you. Dogs were easy to get. The problem is that they were also easy to get rid of. In the area that I grew up, there is no leash law and people expect that their dogs will live a short life and probably die by gunshot. no biggie, they'll just get another. They love their dogs, but still treat them as a disposable commodity. A dog is a dog is a dog. This one doesn't work out? Dump him along the side of the road and pick up another.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I've seen many adds flagged by people that, to me, didn't appear to be breeders. In Pgh, there are some really flag happy ppl. 

Legit post getting flagged because of someone's proceeded bad wording.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I do tend to agree with FuryanGoddess on this one. I think there are a lot of people that go overboard with posting. My sister had an accidental breeding with her lab (neighbors Aussie got into her kennel). But when she put the pups on craigslist, they were constantly being flagged. Sure, it was not an ideal breeding, it was an accident, but she was doing everything she could to find good homes for them. She did screen, she even typed a little basic puppy training and potty training flyer to help them and made sure that if they had a problem with the puppy they would call her, she would re-home the pup or help them. She was asking a re-homing fee to cover the vet costs but that was it. But every time she turned around, her add was flagged and taken down..... I think there is a big difference between puppy mills and accident puppies, sure, she probably should have been more careful, she probably could have had her spayed earlier, but once they come in heat..... well woulda coulda shoulda.....doesnt fix the problem. She did contain her dog.......but the neighbors apparently was quite determined..... I would love to see a pop up come up whenever someone is looking for a dog that would give a check list of what to look for, and red flags......at least that would get the information out to people on what they SHOULD be looking out for. Doesnt mean they will follow it.......but at least it would be something.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

FuryanGoddess said:


> See, this always made me scratch my head. There is NO way on this Earth that I could swing 1700+ for a dog. I have a house, three kids and only my hubs works. I'm a stay at home mom. BUT we CAN afford a 150-200 dollar vet bill once a year. HUGE difference. You STILL have to take a 1700+ dog to the vet so that's even more money. That is more than out of our price range and truthfully, I don't think money always buys the better dog.


I never thought I would spend over a grand for a pup. I have a byb and a rescue~both have temperaments that limits us as far as sportwork or training goes. I wanted to get involved in SchH and neither of mine have what it takes.
So I saved for a pup from a good breeder. The initial cost of the pup isn't the big deal...what if you had an emergency? $200 a year for vet bills would be ideal, but reality raises its head too often. 
I don't think money buys a better dog, either~but, if you go with a reputable breeder who has done everything right to better the breed they are breeding, then paying a bit more is worth it. You pay a BYB $ they don't take that money and re-invest it in their program or training, etc...
I will only get a dog thru shelter, rescue or a reputable breeder. 
If there is a dog on CL that needs rehome, fine but the people breeding/selling for cash only should be flagged and buy a newspaper ad to sell their wares.
Around here there have been people getting free pets off CL and turning around and then selling them, they are getting flagged by the CL po-po!
I agree, Betsy~I wonder who makes the decision to delete flagged posts. Just because I can push the flag button doesn't mean the ad should be automatically deleted.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I have never been able to understand the whole pity party that goes on with the people who get flagged. I am sure there are people who get flagged for no reason, but the rules clearly state that breeders are not allowed. And yet, post after post pops up from people that have obviously bred the litter of puppies being advertised. 

I just don't understand the logic behind it all. It doesn't matter if you intended for the dog to have puppies, you're still a breeder if the dog you own has puppies. It doesn't matter if the pups are mix-breed, you are still a breeder. It doesn't matter if you don't show dogs, you are still a breeder. The rules still apply and you should not be advertising puppies on a site that expressly for forbids that type of advertising. The excuses seem endless.
Sheilah


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I learned this on the guinea pig forum that I am a member of. They have a group of people in every area possible that spends hours every day searching for "breeder" posts. So, even though I might read the ad and it 110% sounds like a legit re-home, they know that that person posts the same ad every couple weeks to get rid of another batch of babies. 

Plus, just because an ad is flagged doesn't mean that it is automatically deleted. It is simply brought to the attention of whomever is in charge of that area and they make the decision. I am sure that they are also well aware of the people who post the same ads over and over again.

also, even though it was an accidental litter and you call it a "re-homing fee" you are still technically a breeder selling pups. It's not re-homing if they haven't even gone to their first home yet! Otherwise, all BYBs could say that they are charging an adoption fee, not selling.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Josiebear said:


> I really wish Craiglist would ban selling puppies on their site. It just really bugs me to see that.
> 
> Am i the only one that think it's nuts for people to think it's ok to sell puppies on there and for people to buy it from the list?...


"No animal sales or breeding."

However, until Craigslist approves every single ad that is posted in the pets section, there's really no way for them to enforce their rules other than their community flagging/moderation system.

Even then, peoples' ads slip through the cracks. Unfortunately, in Atlanta, puppies are often sold WAY too young (4 to 5 wks old) and people scoop them up because they're "babies," and they will "bond better." 

P.S. FWIW, I found two dogs on Craigslist:

Tobey (my EPI and cancer boy whose owners dumped him at their Vet's office for boarding...and then waited 6 months before saying, "find him a home. Do whatever with him. We don't want him. Vet's office contacted Forsyth County Humane Society to help with his placement. No one wanted him because of the way they worded his ad, "has to have daily medication and cannot be home alone more than 3 hours due to having to go potty.)

Ursel (her owners were "re-homing" her as a 5 year old dog. Lo and behold...she was almost 10 years old. She came with her scorebook and about 30 lbs. overweight. Her owners were free-freeding her Evo Red!)


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

We got Ike off of Craigslist. We paid what I felt was a very reasonable price for this dog, but higher than what I would consider an appropriate adoption fee. We saw it within minutes of it being posted and called, but by the next day the post had been flagged and taken down. 

I feel that it was a legitimate rehome situation. The dog was not in a good situation, the owners knew enough to know that he needed a better home, but Ike was an expensive dog and like most people who are not particularly pet minded, the owner wanted to get what he felt was a reasonable amount of money back on the dog and ensure a good home. I am glad we got him even though he to was worm infested and out of date on his vaccines. He's got a lot of energy and while he has a great temperament and good training, he's alot of dog for the average person. At least with us, he gets to get back into training which he loves.

Bottom line is that the intention of Craigslist is for rehoming and adoption, not for selling and that people who try to sell their puppies there, I feel, fall into 2 categories seperated only by intention.

1. People who shouldn't breed that just want to make money and hope for quick mass exposure via a popular online marketplace.

2. People who shouldn't breed but love their puppies and hope for good homes but feel (perhpas through ignorance of what is involved in finding good homes) that the popular online marketplace is a good and appropriate venue for their ads since their dogs are just "pets".

Either way, education and enforcement of existing laws is needed. I know in FL, dogs need to be sold with a health certificate and a minimum of vet care no sooner than 8 weeks. You see ads for younger pups all the time, and I would bet that if you called they wouldn't have the health certs. Get the law involved. I bet if some of these people realize that there are fines involved or money for the health cert then they wouldn't be so quick to throw a $150 puppy up on CL. A Health Cert alone costs $100 in this area.


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