# Help!



## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Teagan is a happy dog. Energetic without being crazy, full of life and happiness.

She has hip dysplasia, a bone chip in one of her hips, arthritis in both her back knees and an old untreated cruciate tear in one of her back knees as well.

She has started having accidents in her crate. This has been going on for months, and I've put them down to her having 'bad days'. 

However, even on her bad days, she still wants to walk/run/etc. She does roll a lot on her walks but no obvious limping etc. 

She is now having accidents, pee and poop, on a daily basis, sometimes more than once a day. 

I am getting her checked out Wednesday for a bladder infection, but I know in my gut this is her back end problems. It's like she was prior to getting diagnosed.

What seems to be happening is she'll squat to pee, can't (pain, I assume) and ends up having an accident later. 

She is on several supplements and a max dose of aspirin (metacam is too expensive right now). 

I am going to talk to the vet about quality of life issues, but I don't know how to judge this. She seems full of go still, but I assume pain/inability to go normally is causing these accidents.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How about a higher grade pain killer?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I don't want her on morphine/opiates and I'm not sure if there's anything better in the NSAID category - was going to talk to my vet about this. Do you have any idea?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What is rimadyl? Aspirin is not an NSAID. i think there is a whole family of pain relievers that would help without going into the heavy drugs.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I've read that aspirin is a NSAID. I'm confused!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think it is but I am not a vet or an expert in any way. I do know there are other meds out there to manage pain that are NSAIDS and either work differently than aspirin or work better. 

Ask your vet and they will be able to tell you the specifics.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

Actually, asprin is a NSAID, but there are others out there that are much more effective to treating inflammation which could be causing pain, Rimadyl being one as well as Deramax and others. If I were you, I would ask your vet for a stronger NSAID for the pain. You need to be careful though for long term use of certain NSAIDs. Liver function needs to be monitored.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Money is a bit of concern as well but I can manage something more than aspirin, for sure. I will talk to my vet. 

I don't see this as being the time but then I have all these quality of life concerns as well. But she seems too full of life to let her go at this point. I'm hoping the vet will be able to shed more onto this as well. 

We are willing to clean up her accidents, I don't want anyone to think that, I just hate that she's having them. It worries me.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Bella has the poops if she ever has a UTI. It's weird but it happens. 

It could be something that massage, acupuncture or chiropractic could help with if not. It could be something like spinal??? I don't know and don't want to guess too much! 

Tramadol is an opiate I guess, but I really liked it for pain. Kramer would have a wild reaction to it so I didn't give it to him until the end, when he had enough pain I guess to absorb it, then he was perky! 

He had metacam a few times and what I really liked with that was that I could dose him at like half his weight, or even less. Like a dose for a 15# was enough to make him feel better. So it was expensive but I was able to stretch it though I only used it for an acute incident. 

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Pain2.htm is a really good series of articles about pain. It gives you some great other things you can do in I guess stage 1, 2, 3 of pain. In the senior section there is info on pain management. They are really getting into this more now. 

There is also a quality of life scale in this section of the board that some might hate, some might like. 

I saw her getting to protect-she looked totally engaged and happy! 

Good luck with the vet visit.


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## London's Mom (Aug 19, 2009)

There's a new pain med for dogs called PREVICOX. It is much milder on the dog's stomach, liver and kidneys. I would not use Rimadyl or aspirin on either of my dogs. They are both tough on their kidneys, liver and stomach. Of course, if it is the dogs final year, then the pain management is weighed against the liver damage.

Ask your vet about PREVICOX.

It is so hard when your dog is in pain. It is tough to deal with emotionally. You really feel for them. Good luck.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks guys. 

Jean, she has been on Metacam before, but I found it very expensive at the time and frankly while I wish it wasn't difficult to afford it was, but things are a bit better now so maybe we can revisit that or a different med. 

And that's just it re: the protecting pics - she was having a ball! And being physical and she was fine, so it's confusing. She tried to pee there a couple of times, we didn't see anything in the snow, and then she had an accident when we got home, which worried me as well. 

But she still seems engaged with and enjoying life. 

I'm mostly just confused and scared right now. 

London's Mom, thanks, I will ask about Previcox. She gets coated aspirin right now so that her stomach is okay.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

So sorry to hear about Teagan. 

Do you have her on Ester C? That helps alot with inflammation. 

I am thinking something else is going on though...my Massie had severe pain in her hips and did not have accidents in the house. It's possible Teagan has some sort of spinal/nerve involvement so she doesn't know when she really has to go or can't send the right signal from her brain to the appropriate area in her body.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks Ruth. 

She is on Ester C. 

Well, and she doesn't seem to limp or anything else I associate with pain. 

I want to get x-rays to check out her spine/hip area and see if there's any spondylosis or something else going on. 

I am confused by her symptoms, to say the least! We wondered for a time if it is was willful accidents, but I don't think so. Not after watching her try to pee outside and then going inside (and she'd had plenty of tries, and I thought she went with one of them, but I guess I was wrong).


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## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

Our Kayla suffered from DM and we always used a towel under her stomache in front of her rear legs...we used it when she went up and down steps and to help her steady herself when she had to go potty...both pee and poop...she adjusted to it right away...We walked with a leash in one hand and the towel in the other. I think it helped keep her steady...worked for a long time.

Judy


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I've wondered about DM, but she's not showing signs of weakness back there. That's a good idea though, with the towel, to help her out. 

I did move to the house we're in now so we could have more space (Teagan and the cats need to be rotated out) and b/c it is a bungalow which I thought would be better for her as she aged.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

suggestions for pain,,meloxicalm or tramadol, (the meloxicam is the human form of metacam),,if your vet will write a prescription for you, EACH of these are 4-10 dollars a month at Walmart..VERY cheap, 

The meloxicalm comes in 7.5 mg's,,,I used to give my female who weighed 70 lbs, and 1/2 daily,,a months' worth will last 60 days..
just as effective as metacam..

Hope this helps


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thank you. I never thought about Meloxicam being cheaper. I'll talk to the vet about this! 

I'm thinking we can make some real improvements. I hope we can manage her pain and make her comfortable until it is time. She's right here with me now and I just can't imagine now having her.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Overall , chiro & accupuncture will help your dog feel better. Piddle pads make accidents easier to deal with. Doggie diapers can be made from a pair of women's traditional underwear (thongs wouldn't work.) Cut the seam at the front of the crotch for the tail, put a pany liner or light days pad in the crotch, slip these on & knot the waist to fit. They help with urinary incontenence.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thank you. I don't think she's incontinent, but it's the same effect, though she pees quite a bit when she does have an accident. 

She tears pads up, unfortunately, or I would use the piddle pads.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Well, I drop her off tomorrow morning and I am nervous! This is so they have time to do the x-rays etc while I am at work. 

I'm driving my boyfriend crazy with my worrying about her. He thinks she's fine, but I notice sensitivity when I touch her hips etc and I know that a high drive, harder dog is more likely to probably hide pain than other dogs, but he's taking her at face value, even though she's having these accidents.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

If your vet hasn't run a full blood panel (CBC), it might be helpful. 

Is her stool yellowy and/or greasy looking? Is she lethargic at all? I'd like to ask the vet to rule out pancreatitis. Something just tells me this is a direction we should look in. 

Jarn, can I ask you a question? And I don't want you to feel like I'm questioning your judgment. I think you and I have known each other a long time and you know me better than that. 

But if you're already worried about quality of life issues and posting dear Teagan's thread here and not in the Health thread, why NOT opioids if they can help her?

We often have a strong desire to avoid narcotic pain killers for our dogs --most often, we worry that they might get addicted. So what? If our dogs are geriatric, very ill, or at such a place as you think Teagan is where you think that pain issues may ultimately lead to her demise, is addiction really such a concern? 

Of course we need to be careful with narcotics. They're not for most dogs. They do have side effects. But they are a very useful class of drugs. They don't have the GI tract and kidney side effects that NSAIDs do. 

Plus, since opioids have been around for hundreds of years (ok, merely decades for some) they're available in generic and human form. Therefore, they're very inexpensive. 

I understand that some people just don't want narcotics in their homes. They have kids or other members of their households that they don't want exposed to this sort of drug. Narcotics can be harder to get (depending on your vet), and you have to go in for a refill more often -- at least in the USA you do. So I understand if you have personal preference for not using them.

But if the reasons are veterinary, perhaps you can discuss them with your vet. They might be Teagan's best hope. I know that Teagan is a tough cookie, and if anyone has the will to go on, it's her. I've always admired your girl. I'm terribly saddened by this. I'd just like to make sure that she has all options available to her. 

I'm sorry if this post upsets you. I just wanted to raise an issue that might be helpful.









.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

No, not upsetting. 

One of the reasons why I don't is I'm worried about her being too 'drugged', also, b/c she's so aggressive with an attack history, b/c she needs to be rotated from the cats, b/c of all the extraordinary things I need to do to contain her aggression, I will not take the same steps for her others might. Maybe that's horrible and unfair, but it's how I feel. 

She did have an infected anal gland, so we have meds for that. Otherwise, 
her x-rays all looked good but the other vet will look at them too. Her hip dysplasia remains mild, no arthritis or spondylosis in the spine, and no real arthritis in her knees either.

So the pain thing is a bit of a mystery, though the vet did find some abdominal pain. She couldn't see the kidneys on the x-ray. There was lots of poop and she wondered if the kidneys were hiding b/c Teagan doesn't have a lot of body fat so it is differentiated as clearly on the x-ray.

The one thing that did show on her x-ray is some possible masses that might be poop, or might not. She had a lot of poop in her, so. The vet palpitated a mass but lost it so she thought it could've been poop as well.

Anyways, so we're waiting for the bloodwork and urinanalysis. We'll see from there. I'm hoping not masses but we'll see.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Any update?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Teagan was put down on Tuesday. :cries:

All her tests came back normal but I firmly believe there was something going on with her that wasn't showing up. 

Her behaviour became dangerous, in my opinion, I believe b/c of an undiagnosed physical problem.

As you guys probably know, Teagan has mauled another dog (attempted disembowlment). So her aggression is more serious than a dog that just gets in another dog's face, she is (according to behaviourists I consulted), an experienced killer. My fault that the attack happened, but also a fact of her temperament. 

She was also spending a lot of time in the crate to rotate with the cats. We tried training for cat desensitization but I had determined she would never be trustworthy and would kill at the first chance she got, so they were rotated. 

So Saturday she started snapping at Luc. Sunday this continued (she was corrected for it) and she actually attacked him Sunday afternoon (I got her and he was fine, though she almost redirected onto me). 

I've worked with trainers and behaviourists, and I simply didn't have any other tricks up my sleeve. Going after Luc, who is a completely innocous dog (the snapping and attack were unprovoked, he was sitting quietly some distance from her). 

Going after Luc was the final straw for me. I do think she had something physical going on b/c her behaviour was uncharacteristic for her (while being perfectly in line with her temperament, if that makes sense - she's always gotten along great with Luc, but being aggressive is also her base temperament). 

I feel so bad - she was euthanized for a mix of what I believe to be undiagnosed physcial problems as well as behavioural. I never thought that would happen.

I worked with her on her aggression for the 26 months I had her, and we saw improvements, though it was also very clear to me that we had taught her to not be aggressive for me (i.e., she knew that was what I wanted) but that if the leash was dropped and she had the opportunity, I hadn't eliminated the problem at all. She was an extremely aggressive dog and we tried corrections, desensitization, and most successfully from a 'patch' standpoint, giving her a job to do instead of being aggressive, i.e., working obedience etc. 

I loved her so much - she was my problem dog, but I loved her b/c she was. I miss her so much already, and I feel horrible she's gone, but I didn't see any other option. I couldn't have her attacking the other dogs and b/c of the existing rotation/separation measures, further space for rotations wasn't available. Plus something was wrong with her for her to do that, and I didn't want her to suffer. 

RIP Teagan, you were my sweetheart and my heart, and I will miss you forever.


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## marksmom3 (Dec 17, 2007)

I'm sorry for your loss.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Oh gosh I am sorry. I know you had problems with her and you gave her a great 26 months. I imagine that abdominal pain was something other that feces. 

She is at peace now.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I just saw this. I am so sorry. How heartbreaking. I know how much you loved her and how hard you worked with her. Please take good care of yourself and the dogs and the cats.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

I am sorry for your loss. I think her pain threshold was being lowered due to what was happening to her body and if her tendency was aggression then that is how she expressed it. 

It is regrettable that Luc and the cats were the recipient of her "anger".

She is now at peace and you allowed her that plus the wonderful time she had with you while trying to sort out her problems.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks guys. It's hard.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm so sorry jarn . . . I have endless respect and admiration for your willingness and efforts to help Teagan and deal with her issues. This must be so heartbreaking for you. 

Missed you on the forum. Always enjoyed your insight, pictures, and stories, and your experience with rescues and forum discussions have always been a good learning experience for me. 

Rest in peace Teagan - your life had value and purpose, time to move on to the next level . . .


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks Lucia. I really appreciate it. 

I miss these boards too! I will have to post more.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

I am so sorry Teagan is going through this. When I read your post, I assumed she was an old dog. I was so surprised and saddened when I saw in your signature that she is only 6.5 years old. Good luck.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thank you.

She was actually 7.5 years old, I need to update the sig. But still young.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Oh...







Jarn. I'm so sorry. Teagan was such a beautiful girl. She lived a wonderful life with you, and I know how much you loved her. Yes, I know she struggled, but you stood by her. 

I can still see in my mind the happy pictures of her, Luc and Neb. She adored her family. If she went after Luc, then yes, something wasn't right. Deep in her heart -- a place that almost certainly couldn't be reached -- she was Teagan, who would never do that, but something else had taken over. When we hurt the ones we love the most and are unable to stop it, I can only imagine how deeply that must cut. I truly believe that you did the most loving thing. You protected Luc and Neb. But you saved Teagan from the agony of watching herself harm those she loves so deeply. It's a courageous and loving thing to say "I love you too much to suffer like this," when the suffering isn't clear physical suffering, but suffering of the spirit. I know it was a hard decision, and I admire you for making it. 

I hope that makes sense. It's hard for me to write this as tears stream down my face. I just know that somewhere, Teagan is relieved to be free of the burden she has been carrying. You have set her spirit free. I grieve for your loss of your beautiful girl. I'm just so terribly sorry.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)




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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm so very sorry for your loss(


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Lori, that was beautiful. Thank you. 

It actually makes me feel a lot better. I just never saw myself in this situation. So it's a bit of a shock to be here.

Diane and Allie, thank you.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Today is the one week anniversary. RIP my beautiful girl. 

It is hard without her. I'm surprised, but neither Luc nor Neb seems upset by her passing - on some level, this bothers me, on another level, I wonder if they sensed something was wrong and have accepted it. There is a lot more freedom of movement in the house now though, b/c we don't have to separate the animals, and maybe Luc and Neb having each other helps with them mourning her not being around. I don't know.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I found this happened when Zamboni passed away. She had been sick, and while her leaving was very hard for us, Meri and Celo seemed to take it in stride. But when Camper died very suddenly (he was healthy and vibrant up until his death), Meri grieved his death for a long time. She'd sit on the back porch and look out where they used to play together. 

I think our dogs DO know a lot more than we realize. You felt that Teagan was in pain. If that's the case, then Luc and Neb probably had a lot clearer picture of what Teagan was feeling. They aren't surprised by the fact that she's gone. It may be simply, that they knew she was quite sick, and this is the natural order of things. Dogs have a better zen about this sort of stuff than we do, and accept these things more easily.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

That's sort of what I'm thinking. I'm not sure it makes it easier for me, but it helps me a bit. I guess I was prepared for some mourning and then not to really see any surprises me, though I'm glad that Luc and Neb are doing well. It just wasn't what I expected, though in some ways it confirms to me I made the right decision.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am very sorry for your loss, I remember how hard you worked with her, she could not have asked for a more dedicated mom. She probably had the best years of her life with you.
I don't know whether you have considered a necropsy, I know it is hard, but it may give you some answers and a peace of mind knowing what was causing her pain. 

I have had a similar situation when i had to put BoBo to sleep. his pal came into the room with his body, sniffed him and walked away. He did not seem to be mourning his friend - I was surprised and cannot really explain it.

Hugs to you, take care of yourself.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

I'm very sorry!


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thank you both. 

RebelGSD, I decided not to ask for an autopsy (I guess the same as a necropsy) b/c of the expense, though part of me wishes I had, b/c I'll always wonder what was going on.

I'm glad Luc and Neb aren't the only non-mourning dogs! I really was preparing for them to be out of sorts but they've both been happy and good this past week.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

jarn, I am so sorry for your loss. But Teagan had something going on whether a Necropsy would have found any thing or not, I think there are things that start simmering in dogs bodies that science hasn't found how to detect that early, but the dog knows.

Animals have much better senses than we do, you other dogs may have know her recent actions really weren't her and they were stressed. So it is a relief for them not to be under the stress, so that is why they aren't mourning.

Teagan is at peace now, she knows how much you loved her.

Val


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

why don't you try Meloxicam? its the people's form of Metacam, and its cheaper....ALOT cheaper. my vet can write me out a prescription and i can get it at walmart...its like 8.00 a bottle..........


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks Val, I appreciate it.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)




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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Teagen, run free


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i am sorry...mi-read this post............RIP Teagen


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

jarn-I am very sorry. Are you okay with moving this to In Loving Memory?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks everyone. I appreciate it.

Jean, that's fine - how do I move it?

We picked up her paw print yesterday and I just started bawling - I thought I'd been doing good but not so much then.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Teagan was so blessed to have you in her life (& you her







) - just keep remembering all the wonderful things you were able to do together.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thank you Alto


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## GSD10 (May 20, 2007)

Jarn, I am really sorry to hear about Teagan's passing. Your love for her is very obvious in your posts.







I hope you are going well.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks GSD10. It's hard without her but it's getting a bit better.


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

Jarn,

I haven't been around in a while, but when I read your thread my heart broke for you. I can remember when you got her and how much you worked with her.

I am very sorry for your loss


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