# Why use Treats/Toys in Training?



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Drive me NUTS when people refuse to use treats and toy in training as a motivation for our dogs. And I never understand their reasoning (my dog should do it because I said so) just as they don't understand me (using food/toys is NOT a bribe!).

Just found this great video that I think explains about what is motivating to our dogs and why it helps:

Enjoy! Motivation in Dog Training (click here)  from Perfect Paws


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## kleinenHain (Sep 20, 2007)

Great video, I wouldn't train without food. Thanks for posting!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

These are usually the people who nags (or worse "tsst") their dogs to death AND the dogs still don't listen. 

I wonder why ...


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinThese are usually the people who nags (or worse "tsst") their dogs to death AND the dogs still don't listen.
> 
> I wonder why ...


Good video.

My family sometimes complain that I use treats or toys as a bribe and that Benny just works for "whats in it for him" and that a "real dog would find reward in just pleasing me! I just ask if they would go to work just to obey their boss iof there was no paycheck!


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Good answer!

I just ask if they would go to work just to obey their boss iof there was no paycheck![/quote]


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I suspect that it's from seeing people that use food or toys all the time in training and never actually train the dog. These people lure the dog all the time never expecting the dog to learn the exercise so when there is no food or toy, the dog gives the handler the finger.

There are a couple of dog schools here in town that do this and the dogs learn absolutely nothing.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

You mean like this guy and everyone that trains with him?
http://www.bradpattison.com/


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.You mean like this guy and everyone that trains with him?
> http://www.bradpattison.com/


*Do not make your dog do a sit/stay for food. It is the same thing as using a treat as they are sitting for the food, not for you.*








Yeah, and I work for the money not for the joy of sitting in an office all day. That's wrong why?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax was the first dog I trained and I was taught not to use treats. She would listen most of the time but I noticed when she heeled that she drug herself around like "ok..if you are going to make me"

then I read an article on what dogs need to survive. Turns out they need food first, then us...so makes sense to use what motivates them to get them to do what we want.

So I started using treats in agility. Her participation was so much better! Then I added a clicker last week. Holy Shmoly!! She was actually paying attention!!

So if it ain't broke....


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Masi will train with food, but it's not a high motivator for her,,a tug/frisbee/ball now that ramps her up and she's ready for anything, 

She's the first dog I've had that food wasn't a high motivator , so it's been kinda cool using tugs/frisbees which really get her going)


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## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinThese are usually the people who nags (or worse "tsst") their dogs to death AND the dogs still don't listen.
> 
> I wonder why ...


THAT annoys the crap out of me. People who use one method of training - usually something heavy-handed and very little positive motivation - on a dog, and it doesn't respond at all. And they keep using it, and the dog keeps doing whatever it's doing.

If the method you're trying doesn't seem to be working...why wouldn't you try something different?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:If the method you're trying doesn't seem to be working...why wouldn't you try something different?


Well said...







Specially cause that's usually going hand in hand with anger and frustration during training, which is NEVER a good thing.

The key is what MOTIVATES your dog. What makes them have that bounce in their step, willingness to learn, and loving to partner with YOU to learn new things as well as do the old. If my dog was a crazed maniac just for praise, then that's all I'd need to motivate her (but it's not







) and if food does it, the I use food, and for those of us that know to add a motivating toy, even better...........


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

The anti-treats people expect the dog to comply with humans out of "respect," "love," or some other such nonsense, as if dogs are just born respecting humans.

Eeeeh! WRONG!

In fact, puppies learn to respect their moms because she feeds them, keeps them warm and makes them feel protected. So they think she's swell. 

The Psst! crowd look at the pack structure and say "we need to act like a pack leader" but we haven't provided food, protection and warmth since the day that our pups arrived. Sticking a bowl of food on the ground isn't quite the same as snuggling up and letting a puppy suck at our teats. Ya know? (And Brad says we should further remove the connection between us and food. Genius!) 

Mom plays with her puppies. My puppy's breeder posted wonderful photos of the puppies climbing all over her. So when she needs to correct them (which is proportionate to the "crime" committed -- something the Pssst! people also don't understand), they have a history of play, trust, and respect as a backdrop to that one correction. Plus, there's a correction; then it's over. No grudges. Correct and move on. 

By using toys, play and treats, I attempt to recreate a bit of what my pup's mother and littermates offered him -- a relatively stress-free, safe place in which to learn. Good things happen here. If you mess up seriously enough, there may be a correction commensurate to your crime -- so inflicting bodily harm for stepping out of a heel position isn't appropriate -- but then it's back to life as usual. Our life together is fun. It's not just treats and play. We train and work *much* of the time. But he thinks it's play and he has a good time. 

I can't be my puppy's mom. But I can be his partner. I can lead him down wondrous paths. I can keep him safe -- and that starts by making him feel safe WITH ME. Irrational or inappropriate corrections are guaranteed to make my dog feel unsafe. (Or frequent corrections. If I'm correcting frequently, then there's something wrong with what I'm teaching or how I'm teaching it.) With that, I'll never have a dog that will be accurate and consistent. He'll perform as long as I'm there to insist on it. But will he stop at the curb's edge, not rushing into the street, when I'm not there (or too far away to enforce it)? Why would he? 

Respect is something that is *earned,* and imo, undergirding respect is trust. 

These so called professionals don't understand BASIC learning theory. Praise is a secondary reinforcer. By itself, it has no meaning. We have to pair it with something the dog really likes. It's like money. Money is just green papery/cloth stuff. Intrinsically, it has no value. Its value comes from what it can get you. Would you give a puppy a $20 bill for a good sit? Probably not. Well, praise means about the same thing to him unless it's paired with what he does WANT -- treats, play, tummy rubs, etc. Eventually (a long time out), you can fade out the treats because he knows that the praise means the good stuff is coming later. He TRUSTS that, but if he hasn't ever received the good stuff during training, then praise is rather meaningless.

So my dogs who stop at the edge of the street and wait for me to show up do so they know in the deepest part of their brains that what I will give them is better than whatever lies on the other side of the street. It's something I've drilled over and over just in case they ever get loose. It may be a treat, playing with me, a toy, possibly all three... or very likely, I'll let them cross the street anyhow now that I'm with them, but they KNOW that complying with that rule will be worth it. 

It's all about trust, which has to be earned. It always has to. Corrections without good stuff is one of the easiest ways to ensure you'll never get it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomThese so called professionals don't understand BASIC learning theory. Praise is a secondary reinforcer. By itself, it has no meaning. We have to pair it with something the dog really likes. It's like money. Money is just green papery/cloth stuff. Intrinsically, it has no value. Its value comes from what it can get you. Would you give a puppy a $20 bill for a good sit? Probably not. Well, praise means about the same thing to him unless it's paired with what he does WANT -- treats, play, tummy rubs, etc. Eventually (a long time out), you can fade out the treats because he knows that the praise means the good stuff is coming later. He TRUSTS that, but if he hasn't ever received the good stuff during training, then praise is rather meaningless.


Exactly, that's what irks me about so-called "trainers" like Brad - he lacks the most basic understanding of what motivational training is all about. And if you're slamming something you don't understand, especially something that's proven to work and is based on learning _science_, why should anyone pay attention to you? And yet people do.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Because he has a tv show and we don't?


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I used to visit his message board when I first got Dakota.

All I can say is that the members on his board are mini-Brads armed with even more dislike of treats. You couldn't even mention the "t" word in any discusion without being mobbed.

giving a dog treats will cause them to seek out children and steal the food from their hands

giving a dog treats will cause them to hunt down children to lick or bite their faces because they have traces of peanut butter on them and you use PB as a treat in a kong

giving a dog a treat causes them to beg

giving a dog a treat causes food aggression

Don't get me started on what they think about NILF

I've stopped watching that show. The way he would badger his clients because they used treats was horrible. It's fine to believe in a certain method and promote it, but, to downgrade all the other methods and close the door on them too closed minded for me.

I use treats and I use toys and I use praise. And I'm proud of it.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

always give a GOOD BOY sometimes treat(and he may drop it and not care) and I admit he sometimes will blow me off and NOT do anything.I am not in competition mode but admit that treats are an
important part of working with -crazy dog -darn a thinking GSD fun BUT food is part of it!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> giving a dog treats will cause them to seek out children and steal the food from their hands
> 
> giving a dog treats will cause them to hunt down children to lick or bite their faces because they have traces of peanut butter on them and you use PB as a treat in a kong
> ...



Amazing how little these folks think of the inherent nature of dogs, that they're so aggressive that they'll attack just because you happened to feed them the "wrong" food What's the right food? Kibble? The pet food industry must love these folks.

Wonder why they even open their homes to canines in the first place, if they're so dangerous. 

And what do they think about BARF diets? Should I even ask?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Many years ago I had a so-called friend who had a Chow/Belgian mix. Pepper was stubborn and his owner used the "he should do it because I'm the leader" theory of dog training. 

One time I baby-sat for Pepper for a week and used dried hot dog treats which he loved. He'd fall all over himself to come when I called him. 

When his owner got back, she got so mad that Pepper would come when I called him she never spoke to me again. Pepper continued to blow her off when she called him. It was very sad.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

I have used treats to train our dogs and to reward good behaviour but once the behavior is learned I do wean off the treats and reward with praise and petting. When I got Quynne, the training classes had closed for a summer break by the time she had the required vaccinations. So I trained her with treats until she recognised the verbal command and weaned off the treats. 

When we started formal training there were many pups who were "starting from scratch" and the trainer had us all using treats again (almost excessively to the point that the behaviour was not being associated with the reward). I also used squeaky toys to get her attention. Quynne then began to respond only when she got a treat, so I began backing off the food treats ond back on to verbal reward and she got back on track.

So do I fit the category of not using treats? I think they have their place and it is very important but I do want the dog to behave responsibly not just because a food treat is going to be offered but because she knows what I require and that I will reward verbally and/or physically.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I saw that Brad guy's program one time on Animal Planet. I was really confused as to why the first thing he made the lady do was throw away all the dog treats.

Now it makes sense.

And then he spent the rest of episode doing relationship counseling which was really creepy. Seemed like in the episode the one person the husband hated more than his wife was Brad so he spent the whole hour not talking to the two of them. It was a strange show LOL.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Luckily, in all my involvement in dog training (agility, obedience, Dog Sport, Schutzhund, dock diving, rally-o, pet therapy, and conformation) I have only ever met one person that told me "I used to not believe in this food and toys stuff but now I've come around."


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

My dogs always get good stuff, and they also learn that sometimes, they have to just because I said so. But that is far different than never using toys or food.

sometimes I'd just like to tell those people that think their dogs are working to please them, that their dogs don't like them that much and it's obvious..

That being said I have 3 dogs. One is a good blend of working for rewards and for me. I have another younger one, that is crazy for the food, crazy for the ball, but also is very sensitive to me. I'm not a perfect trainer, there are instances where my dogs know there is no reward coming or that i'm telling them something and I mean it. This dog will do anything and everything at all times and does find huge amounts of joy just being near me.

My other one also loves to work, and I think she likes me, but other times, she could give two shits less about me. She'll bring toys back to me to play and shove them at me to play, but if I don't, she's gone. if i'm in a room doing something and i'm not doing something with her, she's gone finding her own thing. She'll bring a kong to me when we aren't doing stuff if I call her, but if don't engage with her actively, she's 15 feet away and will lay down on her own.

She's so intense and focused. as with anything it has pro's and cons. it's nice because she can't see that i have food or a ball because she fixates on it so much she doesn't hear or do anything. You know the Flinks drive and focus stuff, bring to a sit, and if you leave the ball out and tell to platz, she'll hold the most intense sit and stare for a minute. Put the ball behind my back or out of site and say platz, down, sit, back up, stand, stand, pull the ball back out and she just stares in whatever pose she is in. 

So that works to my advantage, can't use balls or treats in trials anyway, but she's also very aware if i have any of those things on me. Getting her to believe that I have them even when she can't tell is the not difficult, but something I always have to be on top of. If she doesn't think there's something in it for her, well good luck to me. But she's a blast, i love all of them.
It's so different from my other 2. One brings me stuff cause she's been trained one brings me everything just because i'm convinced she just wants me to have it and it makes me happy. She is absolutely a dog I would say can work to make her owner happy.

It's not just those instances, but these are easy to use to illustrate what i'm trying to say. So, what was my point? who knows, but aren't dogs fun to watch and learn from and try to teach a few things too?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: QynI have used treats to train our dogs and to reward good behaviour but once the behavior is learned I do wean off the treats and reward with praise and petting. When I got Quynne, the training classes had closed for a summer break by the time she had the required vaccinations. So I trained her with treats until she recognised the verbal command and weaned off the treats.
> 
> When we started formal training there were many pups who were "starting from scratch" and the trainer had us all using treats again (almost excessively to the point that the behaviour was not being associated with the reward). I also used squeaky toys to get her attention. Quynne then began to respond only when she got a treat, so I began backing off the food treats ond back on to verbal reward and she got back on track.
> 
> *So do I fit the category of not using treats?* I think they have their place and it is very important but I do want the dog to behave responsibly not just because a food treat is going to be offered but because she knows what I require and that I will reward verbally and/or physically.


Not at all, that's exactly how you SHOULD use treats. They're a _training tool_, once the behavior is learned, you're no longer training it. You can continue to reward occasionally if you want, even forever, but you don't HAVE to, the dog is working for you, and it's not dependent on the presence of treats. If you do need to always have treats on you for your dog to obey, you're doing it wrong! Unfortunately, it's a common misconception that if you use food to train your dog you have to always have it on you or they'll just stop obeying, which drives me nuts! Those people simply don't understand the concept. Obviously, Brad and his minions would fall under that category. 

Ideally, the rate of reinforcement is very high for new behaviors, or if you're increasing the criteria of a learned behavior by generalizing to new situations and adding distractions, but then you switch to a variable reward system, and eventually phase out treats (or reward just once in awhile if you want to). By pairing praise/and or petting (secondary reinforcers) with food (a primary reinforcer), you give praise meaning - words are not inherently rewarding to dogs, but they learn to associate them with food rewards, which ARE. When you start training another new behavior, the rate of reinforcement goes up again, _for that behavior_.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinSeemed like in the episode the one person the husband hated more than his wife was Brad so he spent the whole hour not talking to the two of them. It was a strange show LOL.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Did you see the one where Brad put a fake baby on the sofa, then when the dog went to *investigate* the DOLL, Brade used that as evidence that the dog would ATTACK a CHILD? 


(Because the dog had been fed treats)



















That was the first and last episode I watched.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Wow, what an idiot!


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I saw that episode! I couldn't stand watching him. I thought that his style with people was almost worse than his style with the dogs. I don't think they were learning much of anything, and were certainly not that comfortable. It was just weird. 

I think that food and toy rewards are great. I care far more that my dog is having fun learning with me than I do that they are doing it "just for me". I think if you phase out the food the dog will perform anyway. I choose to continue to treat occasionally, jackpot if he does something great, and try to make it as much fun for him as I can. Dogs don't see much point in "sitting" or "heeling". It doesn't have much relevance to them. Much like your job can seem pointless at times







So why not reward them for it, and make it fun?

Also, I like to use real life rewards, and play games. Like chase. My chihuahuah didn't have much of a recall. Finally, I figured out one of the best things to do (besides treating), was to every once in a while, randomly, to chase him around the yard or the house when he came really fast when called. He LOVES this game, and is very reliable now. 

I think if anything this makes my dog respond to me more, even without food in my hand. I think of him as my partner, not my servant or robot.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I'm glad Ive never seen an episode! I'm not allowed to watch shows that make me throw things at the TV. for some reason hubby refers to as "TVs are expensive"

rofl


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

A question to all of the "treat" advocates here - what do you use when the dog refuses treats?

I do usually use treats when training my 23 month male GSD and he seems to like and repond well to them, BUT sometimes, usually when he is very excited at the training class, he will refuse themall (and don't tell me to use a High value treat as a couple of trainers did as i was using little chunks of chicken and/or pieces of cheese as well as the normal freeze dried liver as treats on different occasions). So then what do you use as a treat under those circumstances? He will sniff it and turn his head away.

Praise will work then as well as reasonable leash corrections to get his attention but treats are refused.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

treats don't have to be food. they can be a prized toy or whatever. some dogs also prefer more low-key praise when they are already in a heightened situation, like class. 

also, if he already knows what you are teaching him, just phase out the treats. esp if he isn't interested in them.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: codmasterA question to all of the "treat" advocates here - what do you use when the dog refuses treats?
> 
> I do usually use treats when training my 23 month male GSD and he seems to like and repond well to them, BUT sometimes, usually when he is very excited at the training class, he will refuse themall (and don't tell me to use a High value treat as a couple of trainers did as i was using little chunks of chicken and/or pieces of cheese as well as the normal freeze dried liver as treats on different occasions). So then what do you use as a treat under those circumstances? He will sniff it and turn his head away.
> 
> Praise will work then as well as reasonable leash corrections to get his attention but treats are refused.


That's when I use voice and relationship and no leash corrections, because to me (my dogs) the dog is stressed if they aren't eating. I have one who is always too stressed to eat. Or for others, too distracted. So I had to train her with voice and relationship. Toys-she didn't care. 

I think the leash corrections seem to be counterproductive because the dog is kind of checked out. When you think about how you were in school, if the teacher made the lesson more fun, more interesting, and got you engaged in it, it was better than the teacher who stood over you, maybe giving you a little smack on the head, where you just pretended to be with them. 

It's a lot harder to engage them of course!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Well, the treat has to be good. But also the dog has to be HUNGRY - as in "skip a few meals hungry" if need be so he sees food in training he is not going to pass up the chance to eat.

Also, the dog could be stressed and not just excited. IMO the first goal of training in the case should be to get the dog calm down and think clearly enough to take treats from you. And when he is doing that in front of other dogs, then the "real" training starts.


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

I agree with everyone, I ALWAYS use treats to train BUT it backfired on me. He usually will not do a lot of things I ask him if I do not have a treat, especially if distracted.
Last night he FAILED his TDI test and one reason was b/c he would not sit when I was telling him to and he would ignore me (I did not have treats). Just to prove to the evaluator he always sits I used a treat and he sat everytime. I would like him to listen to commands such as sit and down even if I do not have treats and I am going to start doing it without treats and more "good boy" and treats and being excited. It was really embarrassing.

I am going to post the other reason he failed in another topic.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

There comes a point with some dogs where you have to put a bit of pressure on them when they KNOW how to do something, but choose not to. They need to learn that they HAVE to.

I always teach new behaviors using food, because you can repeat the behavior many times and quickly with the dog still interested. Once the behavior is learned, I start to integrate a toy as the reward instead of food. Shanes toy drive is really starting to come out, and I found the perfect tug toy yesterday that he LOOOOOVES! and it is now "the special toy" meaning he only gets to play with it when we are training, when we are not, it is put away out of sight. 

Shane is very young, so we havent introduced any corrections besides verbal ones, like a "uh uh!" or "No!"


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: DozerI agree with everyone, I ALWAYS use treats to train BUT it backfired on me. He usually will not do a lot of things I ask him if I do not have a treat, especially if distracted.
> Last night he FAILED his TDI test and one reason was b/c he would not sit when I was telling him to and he would ignore me (I did not have treats). Just to prove to the evaluator he always sits I used a treat and he sat everytime. I would like him to listen to commands such as sit and down even if I do not have treats and I am going to start doing it without treats and more "good boy" and treats and being excited. It was really embarrassing.


It sounds to me like you failed to go to a random reinforcement schedule and phase out treats gradually. For example, if you lure your dog every time, he's going to become dependent on the lure. I lure just long enough that the dog will follow it into position a few times in a row, then I get the lure out of that hand and treat from the other hand. With a smart puppy like a GSD, that's usually in the very first training session. He learns that even though there's not a treat in my hand, he'll still get one. From there, you can have a bowl of treats on a counter or shelf, so they're not even on your person and you have to go get it. He'll learn that the reward may not be in your hand and visible, or even anywhere on you, but that doesn't mean that he won't be rewarded.

If you've been rewarding every single behavior long past the point where you should have been randomly rewarding, he's become dependent on always being rewarded. But a randomly rewarded behavior is actually stronger, where he doesn't know when he'll get a reward and when he won't, or even what that reward might be. Think of a slot machine - the random rewards are exactly why people develop gambling addictions, and the concept is the same. You have to give the command and WAIT. If he's used to seeing the food or at least knowing you've got it, he may not comply right away. Give him some time to work it out. Start mixing in some verbal praise, delivered in a happy, enthusiastic voice, and only reward the best responses - the straightest sits, the fastest downs, etc. Work on it in a low distraction area such as around the house before trying random rewards in more distracting environments. 

You can also use real life rewards, a sit or down before letting him outside or inside, going for a walk, throwing a ball or frisbee, being released to eat a meal, anything that he finds valuable. These are just routine house manners around here, and my dogs learn very quickly how to "make" me give them what they want by following the rules. I start very young, and I expect them to be responsible for knowing what those rules are and complying, without me having to nag them or constantly reward them.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

codmaster - Dante's food drive was not that high when he was a youngster but drive for a bit of tug was through the roof. So that was what he worked for - a quick game of tug


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

> Quote: agree with everyone, I ALWAYS use treats to train BUT it backfired on me. He usually will not do a lot of things I ask him if I do not have a treat, especially if distracted.
> Last night he FAILED his TDI test and one reason was b/c he would not sit when I was telling him to and he would ignore me (I did not have treats).



This is a misuse of treats in training. 

Treats are used for a new behavior, then weaned of learned behaviors. Every second or third attempt, then randomly then once in a blue moon.

Always using treats is like always using a gentle leader pr prong collar. They all have their place in training but they are temporary.

It is unfortunate that your trainers have not taught the correct way of using treats, instead of only the beginning process.

Instead of staring no treats, start with random treating for a few days. With learned behaviors you should be ready to go with no treats within a week at most.

Good luck!

Edited to add - sorry, Cassidy's Mom Didn't see your post or I would not have added mine. Very good!


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

I have done random treating, the problem I had was he was too distracted with all the dogs and people. He will sit no problem without a treat any other time EXCEPT when I really needed him too...


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

They say that the human dog relationship all started with wolves(dogs?) hanging around people to eat their scraps. I believe that the relationship is still valid today. 

Dogs do what they do to ensure their next meal and a comfy place to sleep. They "suck up" to us because that's what works. If sits and downs result in a snack, then it's motivation to continue to do sits and downs. LOL! My girl will down just in case sit isn't enough. 

I laugh whenever I see this photo of Doerak (actually I have many like this). At some point in our relationship he learned that making this goofy face will get me up off the sofa and play with him.


















Of course I'm okay with my dogs working for food. All during our Rally routine Balto is smacking his lips asking for his reward. And if there is no food around, they are still going to do it because of just the possibility that there's a food reward.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomDid you see the one where Brad put a fake baby on the sofa, then when the dog went to *investigate* the DOLL, Brade used that as evidence that the dog would ATTACK a CHILD?
> 
> That was the first and last episode I watched.


I guess I'm glad I don't have cable anymore. This guy is scary. You know how people think that anything on TV has to be true.


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## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

Brad Pattison lives in my city and runs a few courses with his assistants in training as well. One of my friends took his two rescue dogs to him and he threw out his treats, and follows Brad's philosophy. On occasion when we were over there, my husband and I snuck his younger dog a few carrots here and there and we caused a mutiny in the household







because when our friend asked his dog to come to him, she stayed put in a sit at our feet.

I've been to his dog forum and it was always the same people pushing their training method down your throat and not willing to try anything else.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: codmasterA question to all of the "treat" advocates here - what do you use when the dog refuses treats?
> 
> I do usually use treats when training my 23 month male GSD and he seems to like and respond well to them, BUT sometimes, usually when he is very excited at the training class, he will refuse themall (and don't tell me to use a High value treat as a couple of trainers did as i was using little chunks of chicken and/or pieces of cheese as well as the normal freeze dried liver as treats on different occasions). So then what do you use as a treat under those circumstances? He will sniff it and turn his head away.
> 
> Praise will work then as well as reasonable leash corrections to get his attention but treats are refused.


I'm assuming you're bringing your dog to class hungry? A dog that eats his dinner then goes to class won't be as inclined to eat treats (under most circumstances) compared to a hungry dog. Most trainers tell their classes this upfront, but I figured I'd mention it just in case.

Assuming that's not an issue, I'd look very seriously at what kind of stress your dog is under (as Jean says). It might be good stress, but it might not be. Coincidentally, I've attended two different talks by two different speakers this weekend and both of them made the point that if your dog won't acknowledge high value treats, then you need to stop, take a step back, and look at what's going on. 

I've seen owners who work well with their dogs before and after class (and both seem genuinely relaxed) suddenly tense up once it's class time and the instructor is there. Worse yet if everyone is watching them. So perhaps you have that sort of dynamic going on?

Or maybe there are other dogs in the class that make your dog unsettled? Arrive early and watch your dogs as the others arrive. Are there any dog that make him seem uncomfortable? Heck, it might even be the dog whose owner you are on really friendly terms with. 

Maybe there are simply too many dogs in the physical space? While a trainer can cram 20 labs at one time into a room and not have an issues, 10 herding dogs may feel crowded in there at the same time. Herding dogs in general need more space -- I've seen cattle dogs, BCs and GSDs look really stressed even when everyone is working hard to maintain the general "4 feet apart" rule. 

With one of my GSDs, if he didn't get enough exercise before class would get distracted and tune me out. With my current GSD (who isn't terribly food motivated), he works better when he's well rested. My beagle doesn't concentrate and gets distracted more easily when she's hungry. So I feed her before classes (which what trainers always tell you NOT to do). So what is physically going on with your dog himself may affect what kind of stress he's under. Check to see if your dog might be too hot/cold, thirsty, full, need to potty (a more common reason for distracted dogs than I think some people realize). Just observe carefully and see if there's anything you can change that might make your dog more comfortable in the training room. 

There are several good books (with lots of pictures!) that illustrate for us how dogs show stress:

CANINE BEHAVIOR - A PHOTO ILLUSTRATED HANDBOOK
by Barbara Handelman 

ON TALKING TERMS WITH DOGS - CALMING SIGNALS, 2ND EDITION
Turid Rugaas 

Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog 
by Brenda Aloff

You may be able find one or more in the library (or maybe borrow from your trainer?). ALL are very much worth owning. I refer to them often.









If your dog is very distracted and not tuning into you at all when you speak to him, check how much you talk to your dog throughout the day. In distracting situations, they have to work to pay attention to the IMPORTANT words we're saying. A clicker can help here. And, not using important words unless you use them clearly and individually -- don't speak in sentences. And don't overuse your dog's name. Hand signals also help, but don't rely on them exclusively. 

If you've evaluated EVERYTHING in your dog's environment and don't see anything that's stressful or that can be improved, then make your dog work for his dinner. Take his kibble and add some flavoring, like crushed liver, toss them into a paper bag and shake them up (Shake and Bake style). Measure into meal-size portions, and from now on, your dog will work for his meals -- breakfast (lunch if he eats it) and dinner. Training doesn't have to be particularly demanding. You can train tricks and have fun with him. So he can do "shake" 10 times for a handful of kibble. You can walk around the house and yard and let him work on walking on a loose leash (better yet, work on a no leash heel!) 

But he'll learn that work is rewarded by food. Most dogs like WORKING for food anyhow. When I just open my refrigerator and hand my kids a piece of chicken, they look at me funny, like "what's up with this?" They're used to earning their snacks. 

So if your dog works for his food at home, in the yard, at the park, etc, then when he's working in his classes, no matter how distracting, he'll expect to be rewarded for his efforts with food. Of course, you can use play and toys for reinforcers too. Those just add to the fun.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Everyone's got great suggestions and hints.

Will say, that if my dog is REALLY cranked and excited, she also won't eat. Or she'll take the treat and drop it. 

All this means is she's not in learning mode EITHER. If I get her TOO cranked and excited, and expect her to learn something new it's probably not going to happen. I need to back away, calm things at bit, and get her brain back into the game. When the edge is off, her appetite and ability to think and learn is also there.

It's different once she KNOWS a command. Then I can crank her up to kind of test that knowledge and her ability to listen and behave in the state of high arousal (hm, kind of like asking her to 'come' when she is tearing after a deer?)


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Treat eating is a good barometer of where the dog's head is. If you offer him something he usually likes and he won't take it, then he is telling you he is not ready for work in that particular environment. Could be excitement, could be stressed. But the point is he is not engaged. I see people who either don't see it happening or think since they are in an one hour class already that they have to power through it so they start nagging, pushing the dog's butt to get a sit, forcing them into a down, yank them around by their martingale to heel, etc. It's pointless and counterproductive and it's just going to make the dog hate training and working with you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Some great info: 

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/are-treats-bribe-when-you-train-your-dog

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/food-critics


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

The first trainer I worked with refused to use food or toys for rewards in training. I had much more success when I started using rewards instead of just corrections. You can ween them off the rewards as they learn and become more reliable and quicker with their action, but I use both food and toy ball as reward in training, the ball also brings up their drive.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I interviewed a trainer once that had this attitude, of course we never trained with him, but his idea was that a dog biggest wish should be to be with you and please you. Well that is just silly IMO, of course my dog wants to be with me, of course she would do anything for that, but that does not give a good marker as to her requested behavior. The comments on the people who train with treats only and the dogs dont respond unless they have treats is a classice example of poor leadership. We play treat lottery in my house, Ava is always willing to gamble on the big win. The thing is, a "treat" can be anything the dog love, love, loves! I always use different rewards. Hotdogs are always a BIG hit, I usually use those for new things I'm training for extra motivation. Sometimes my dog get's invited up for rough pets and loves..........that is a favorite of hers, or perhaps an ice cube (she still loves those) sometimes she gets an awesome treat of dried chicken and sweet potato........WOW JACKPOT!!! The thing is, she does what I ask, because she was trained consistently with treats, and now we play the lottery. With new tricks, we do the same thing, clicker train with treats...get it down pat, then treat sporadically for the behavior. Ava now associates my enthusiasm and excitement at her obedience with the best things in life. If I tell her what a good girl she is and pet her, she knows only good things follow that. I think the theory in the "no treating" training is to build a stronger bond with the animal.........but to be honest with you, I dont know how much stronger Ava's and my bond could be. All the way back to Pavlov's dogs.......dogs are trained through conditioning and positive reinforcements.


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## Bennett (Nov 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: codmasterA question to all of the "treat" advocates here - what do you use when the dog refuses treats?
> 
> I do usually use treats when training my 23 month male GSD and he seems to like and repond well to them, BUT sometimes, usually when he is very excited at the training class, he will refuse themall (and don't tell me to use a High value treat as a couple of trainers did as i was using little chunks of chicken and/or pieces of cheese as well as the normal freeze dried liver as treats on different occasions). So then what do you use as a treat under those circumstances? He will sniff it and turn his head away.
> 
> Praise will work then as well as reasonable leash corrections to get his attention but treats are refused.


I've had this problem, also, because my dog is reactive. In a special class for reactive dogs, I learned to move her out of a situation briefly, distract her, then get her to focus on me again and a basic, simple command such as sit or watch me. It was like breaking a spell. She'd calm a bit and then be more interested in working for the reward.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

The high value treat I have used that never fails is hotdogs....She will ignore a squirrel if I have a hotdog. I actually dont like to use them very often as I dont think they are that good for her (or me for that matter). But she goes ballistic for hotdogs. She will choose hotdogs over liver, chicken, cheese, even her duck/sweetpotato treats which she is also crazy about.


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