# Heavy handed???? I need help!



## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

i visited a local trainer today with my 6 month old working line GSD. he trains police dogs for local k-9 units as well as state police, he's been doing it for 26 years. he wants us to go there for 8weeks for $1000 for obedience and we would "have to" get a prong collar. the guy seemed a little heavy handed with his corrections with the prong collar on the dogs at the class. he put a prong collar on my dog and made him sit from like 20 feet away...wolf barely sits for me from a foot away lol but this guy was like an enforcer. anytime he went near wolf, wolf would hang his head, put his ears back, and seem scared, which he's never done before...is this normal for training a GSD??? i was very uneasy about it, but i'm a big softy and totally baby my dog lol. the guy kept telling me it was ok, my dog was fine, and "if i train POLICE dogs like this, it's definitely not illegal and it's not hurting them." 
my main goal is to work on obedience with wolf and eventually get into schutzhund....but i was just wondering if this is normal in training a GSD? am i just being over protective? are there other methods that are equally as effective? o0oh and the part that really bothered me was he kept trying to get me to leave my dog there with him for a week! he said he'd have my dog fully trained in that week. i told him no way! i could never part from my baby for a week lol let alone with a stranger! i'm conflicted...he had so many awards, certificates, testimonials, champion wins, etc, so this guy obviously gets results...but i don't want my dog to be broken or become afraid of me either. help???


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

$1000 seems pretty pricey for 8 weeks, for someone just getting into it all, is it group or private training sessions? 

As to the heavy handed part, you know it's hard to say. I started Schutzhund with my dog early last summer.

At first it did seem a bit heavy handed then what* I* was used to....at first. I wasn't used to using a prong collar on a dog and was worried about it. With proper guidance from the trainer he showed us that there is a balance. It depends on what you're working on, the drive, the individual dog's temperament and of course lot's of positive praise too, when the dog gives us the behaviour we want.

Having said that, my dog is rather soft with her handler. My trainer is big man, powerful presence but when he senses he's being a bit too much for her he softens himself a bit. In other words she really doesn't cower when he's handling her.

It's so hard to make a judgement call when you're new at this and I'm sure some more experienced folks will be along to help but I thought a beginner's view point would help you too.

In the meantime why not check out other trainers/clubs to get a better feel for it all? Watch the dogs and how they react. 




LissG said:


> i visited a local trainer today with my 6 month old working line GSD. he trains police dogs for local k-9 units as well as state police, he's been doing it for 26 years. he wants us to go there for 8weeks for $1000 for obedience and we would "have to" get a prong collar. the guy seemed a little heavy handed with his corrections with the prong collar on the dogs at the class. he put a prong collar on my dog and made him sit from like 20 feet away...wolf barely sits for me from a foot away lol but this guy was like an enforcer. anytime he went near wolf, wolf would hang his head, put his ears back, and seem scared, which he's never done before...is this normal for training a GSD??? i was very uneasy about it, but i'm a big softy and totally baby my dog lol. the guy kept telling me it was ok, my dog was fine, and "if i train POLICE dogs like this, it's definitely not illegal and it's not hurting them."
> my main goal is to work on obedience with wolf and eventually get into schutzhund....but i was just wondering if this is normal in training a GSD? am i just being over protective? are there other methods that are equally as effective? o0oh and the part that really bothered me was he kept trying to get me to leave my dog there with him for a week! he said he'd have my dog fully trained in that week. i told him no way! i could never part from my baby for a week lol let alone with a stranger! i'm conflicted...he had so many awards, certificates, testimonials, champion wins, etc, so this guy obviously gets results...but i don't want my dog to be broken or become afraid of me either. help???


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if you want to get into schutzhund why not find a club near you and take him there?


I doubt I'd pay 1000 bucks for 8 lessons myself. You don't have to scare your dog into making him obedient, but you can't baby him either.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

LissG said:


> anytime he went near wolf, wolf would hang his head, put his ears back, and seem scared, which he's never done before..


No way in hades would I take my dog to someone who had that effect on him. 

I want learning to be a fun, motivating, enjoyable experience for my dog, a way for us to bond with each other and to become partners. Not a joyless, soul-killing experience in which he learns to obey like a fearful robot.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Killian gets corrected at training for some dominate behavior, he gets all sad looking and pathetic, but the trainer develops a relationship with the dog. Just like Parent and Child, you reprimand your kids when they do wrong, they get all sad looking and sometimes they say, I hate you mom, I know I did when I was a teenager, but the difference is our trainer gives him positive reward interaction so he isn't scared of him, for every bad, they need a good. You can't baby the crap out of him. However, if you don't like it, leave. YOU have to be comfortable. If you feel like your baby'ing your dog, get a veteran dog owners opinion. Usually they can tell you if you are.... 

PS: I would never pay a grand for an 8 weeks course. My suggestion is finding a ScHh club near you! Good Luck!


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I have a feeling I know who you went to see.
But no...I wouldn't let someone treat my dog like that, I would find a different place to train. What are you looking to do with your dog? Basic ob or schh or...?  Maybe we can give you some other suggestions.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No this does not seem the norm for SchH training. First off, 6 months is still just a baby.  Now I'm no national competitor (would like to be with my up and coming dog) but at 6 months my Schutzhund dogs were just playing with food and toys. If Schutzhund is your goal I would join a Schutzhund club; police dog training is not Schutzhund training. When I take obedience, rally, or agility at our local club (not SchH) I pay $100 for 6 weeks. Also I do not let anyone train my dog much less try to correct them for me. My dog, my training.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Wow, that's a lot of $.
My trainer is also a police k9 trainer. He was a K9 cop for 30 years and head of the K9 dept. He travels the country training the police academy trainers. He's called in to K9 depts when they have problems. He does training on the side when he has time and he only charged $500 for 6 sessions.

His training was nothing like you described. And I personally would never have left Gunner to be trained without me.


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

I definitely did NOT leave Wolf there! I'd never leave him with anyone! I told the trainer that right now all I'm lookin to do is get the obedience down pat. Eventually I'd like to get into Sch, but he's just a baby.
GSDGunner-can you PM me the name/number of your trainer?? I didn't feel comfortable there at all, the price seemed high but the real thing that's stearing me away is the way he treated my dog... I know I can't baby him, but I don't want him to fear me, or anyone. I don't want him to cower. I want it to be a relationship building experience.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

LissG said:


> I definitely did NOT leave Wolf there! I'd never leave him with anyone! I told the trainer that right now all I'm lookin to do is get the obedience down pat. Eventually I'd like to get into Sch, but he's just a baby.
> GSDGunner-can you PM me the name/number of your trainer?? I didn't feel comfortable there at all, the price seemed high but the real thing that's stearing me away is the way he treated my dog... I know I can't baby him, but I don't want him to fear me, or anyone. I don't want him to cower. I want it to be a relationship building experience.


Done!
I love my trainer. He really knows this breed so well. Gunner loved him too. He's a great man.


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

Thank you again!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't mean leaving him there but what you described sounds like your dog cowers with him? So he must be correcting him or handling him to somehow give the dog that reaction? Personally, I don't hand my leash over to anyone unless they are helping me with something (sometimes my dog has two lines on during protection) or for some reason I am physically incapable of handling my dog at that time (hasn't happened to me yet but I've helped a friend who had a temporary injury). I am my dog's advocate even if the trainer supposedly knows more and has more experience. I appreciate someone there to critique me as I go but no one handles the dog but me.


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## rgollar (Dec 19, 2010)

No way would I let some one treat my dog like that. Training in my opinion needs some correction. But not to the point that the dog cowers to the trainer. I want my dog to want to do what I ask, not be scared into it. I think training your dog with trust and fun builds such a good bond not intimidation. This is just my opinion and I am by no mean an expert. Good luck in your decision.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

LissG said:


> the guy seemed a little heavy handed with his corrections with the prong collar on the dogs at the class. he put a prong collar on my dog and made him sit from like 20 feet away...wolf barely sits for me from a foot away lol but this guy was like an enforcer. anytime he went near wolf, wolf would hang his head, put his ears back, and seem scared, which he's never done before...is this normal for training a GSD??? i was very uneasy about it...


 I think you answered your own question here. You need to be an advocate for your dog. Don't let someone do something to your dog that makes you uncomfortable, no matter who they are or what they tell you their credentials are. There's a lot of ways to train your dog and no 6 month old puppy needs to be made to cower or be frightened by a strange man for basic training. 

Check out this puppy:











She's close to your puppy's age in these videos. Beyond the really cool stuff she can do, notice how happy she is to work with her person. And notice that this is achieved by using rewards - food, toys and play. Agility people call this "foundation training". Basically it's building a good working relationship with your dog, encouraging them to want to work with (instead of intimidating them into doing it) and teaching skills which are important for anything you might want to do in the future. It's not terribly impressive if someone can get your puppy to sit from 20' away if he has to intimidate him into doing it. While dogs can be successfully trained that way, it comes down to what sort of interactions do you want to have with your dog? Do you want to look at everything as a battle between you and the dog or would you like training to be mutually enjoyable for both of you?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Emoore said:


> No way in hades would I take my dog to someone who had that effect on him.
> 
> I want learning to be a fun, motivating, enjoyable experience for my dog, a way for us to bond with each other and to become partners. Not a joyless, soul-killing experience in which he learns to obey like a fearful robot.


^ What she said.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

6 months old is a baby! And with those methods, your puppy is only going to HATE obedience and it's not going to be easy to fix. Also, way too expensive!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Just wanted to add that we're taking scentwork classes from a former MWD trainer. He trained hundreds of patrol and detection dogs at Lackland AFB before moving the the Bay Area, and he trains and competes in Mondioring with his malinois. What you described is not at all the kind of training he does, not now, or when he was training military working dogs either.


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

I honestly didn't know...there were about 10 people there with their GSDs assuring me that THIS is what they need in order to be trained, they're all working lines and their driveyness need THIS to be taught, and they swore up and down about how amazing this guy is. The trainer was assuring me also. I just didn't know if it really WAS normal and I was just being over protective or not, but I'm glad my instincts were right. They (people+trainer) were telling me that I babied my dog because I didn't use an e-collar or prong collar, and i was babying him by asking if it was ok, if he was being hurt, etc...while i was there I was thinking "ok-these are all adults, they all have GSD, they're all more experienced then me, I don't think they'd put their dog in harm...MAYBE they are right...better consult the GSD forum" LOL. I do NOT want my dog to be afraid of me, ever. I don't have kids, he IS my kid lol. I don't mind correcting him but I want to work WITH him, not have him cowering and scared. That's just awful.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> ...You need to be an advocate for your dog. *Don't let someone do something to your dog that makes you uncomfortable, no matter who they are or what they tell you their credentials are.* There's a lot of ways to train your dog and no 6 month old puppy needs to be made to cower or be frightened by a strange man for basic training.


Yes. I went thru a somewhat similar experience, but Bailey was even younger, around 4 months I believe.

It was pure compulsion training and it was much too early. He was immediately fitted with a prong, something I had *never* used before, knew nothing of, and we were both expected to just go with it.

It was just wrong, I knew it was, but I did come back here and talk about it... to be reassured basically what I bolded above. Trust your gut.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

My opinion.

Many roads lead to Rome. If you want a well-behaved, well-trained dog, there are many ways to reach that goal. Some of those ways are old school, like the trainer you talked about. Some are touchy-feely, like the all-positive/all-the-time trainers that seem to spring up everywhere these days. And then there's something middle-of-the-road that uses both positive reinforcement and corrections.

As far as I'm concerned, corrections have their place ... that place is once the dog has learned a command but chooses to ignore it. When you teach something new, positive (clicker/rewards) is the best way to go. I would rather take longer training and have a dog that WANTS to work with me and WANTS to offer me behaviors, than get a quickly trained dog by yanking and pushing him around.

And I'd never pay $1000 for 8 lessons.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

If you aren't comfortable with the training methods, the odds of you sticking with the training are slim. I'd find a trainer I liked working with.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No offense to this trainer, but if I had a dime for every person that supposedly "trained police K9s for 30 years" I could quit my job. I've trained with some people that advertise themselves as K9 trainers. Just like any type of training (or anything, really) there's a huge spectrum between legit people that know what the heck they are doing and people that think b/c they've trained a working dog they are a K9 trainer. You say the other "people" there swear by it...what credentials do they have? Are they handling active K9s? Have they earned working type titles like Schutzhund? How did you come by this particular trainer and choose him over others? Can he demonstrate high levels of training and titles/certifications with his own dogs?

To me the whole thing just sounds like a rip-off, a supposedly legit police dog training training 6 month puppies for $1000. I'd run not walk, personally.


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> You say the other "people" there swear by it...what credentials do they have? Are they handling active K9s? Have they earned working type titles like Schutzhund?


They were customers, it was a group training class. He'd work with one dog while everyone watched, then another, then another. They were there for obedience, like me, and looking to do SchH, agility, or some other protection type sport after mastering obedience.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Do you know if any of them compete and title their dogs? I ask because I see a lot of bad trainers who people "swear by" but the people that train with these trainers often never achieve or attempt anything beyond a BH level. Most of the time it is not the dog that is the problem but the bad combination of the trainer and the handler. If you want to do Schutzhund later on you'd be better off looking for a trainer or club who really knows the sport and gets results rather than someone who just says they offer that type of training.

Personally I prefer a club atmosphere because I feel there are more "minds" there to observe and offer critique rather than just one person acting like they are the god of training and telling everyone what to do with their dogs. In a club you will train your own dogs but get help and support from the training director and other members.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

LissG said:


> I honestly didn't know...there were about 10 people there with their GSDs assuring me that THIS is what they need in order to be trained, they're all working lines and their driveyness need THIS to be taught, and they swore up and down about how amazing this guy is. The trainer was assuring me also. I just didn't know if it really WAS normal and I was just being over protective or not, but I'm glad my instincts were right. They (people+trainer) were telling me that I babied my dog because I didn't use an e-collar or prong collar, and i was babying him by asking if it was ok, if he was being hurt, etc...while i was there I was thinking "ok-these are all adults, they all have GSD, they're all more experienced then me, I don't think they'd put their dog in harm...MAYBE they are right...better consult the GSD forum" LOL. I do NOT want my dog to be afraid of me, ever. I don't have kids, he IS my kid lol. I don't mind correcting him but I want to work WITH him, not have him cowering and scared. That's just awful.


Prongs are not evil. In my case, I was angry because I had never worked with one, didn't know how to use it, fit it, nothing and I was expected to just jerk the thing and "know." What a crock! Now that I've learned about prongs, I like the prong. But only because I am confident with placing it and using it. 

Heck, you might be overprotective  but better that than blindly trusting someone.

These type of classes may bring "quick" results, but for our "pet" dogs, (non-show, etc) I can't see why we need to go with that.

I clearly remember many dogs in my class, mostly GSD's, and they were very well behaved, executed the commands nearly flawlessly.. But I also recall several others, mostly non GSD's, who were not doing as directed and their owners were being yelled at and both dog AND owner just looked like deer in headlights. Some were pups younger than Bailey. It was just wrong on several levels. As the newcomer, I was getting yelled at.. a LOT! It was real trial by fire stuff. (This class brought in new people every Monday night, so some had been there for weeks, even months) NOW I know what the training goal was - a proper heel and sit *beside* the owner. Bailey kept sitting sideways and wow did we catch **** over that.

It's too easy, when we doubt ourselves, to fall into the trap of hey, this guy is a super duper trainer, look at all he/she has done, they MUST know best!? I mean, we're rookies, right? Who are WE to doubt super-duper-trainer-person? 

But bottom line is that as the owner, we must train in the fashion WE are most comfortable with. Whether that's positive reinforcement, compulsion training, what have you, the dog KNOWS if the handler is confident. I was totally NOT confident with what was going on, but allowed myself and Bails to be yelled at for a bit, then we went to the side of the ring to just watch. We never went back. 

Some days I flirt with the idea of going back, since Bailey's older now, I know what to expect, know how to use the prong AND I believe we can deliver it. Yet on the other hand, the trainer was a nasty person whose methods were ridiculous with a new member. I have NO respect for the fact that he threw the prong on and expected me to use the prong properly, (thru osmosis, or ?) and even less respect that he wanted me to do that, a complete novice with a prong, with a four month old dog. Even LESS respect that we were yelled at like that. I'm not a scardy cat kind of woman , I've been yelled at plenty,,, but come on. 

Again, trust your gut. Get more info and use the training method that YOU can feel totally confident with!


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## LissG (Jun 18, 2011)

chelle said:


> I have NO respect for the fact that he threw the prong on and expected me to use the prong properly, (thru osmosis, or ?)


Hahahaha I'm glad I'm not the only one who has gone through a situation like that, I don't feel so bad anymore... But now that I know better, I'll NEVER ever let anyone do that to me or my Wolf again :nono:. I'm not going back there, I'm going to keep looking and trust my gut.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

LissG said:


> Hahahaha I'm glad I'm not the only one who has gone through a situation like that, I don't feel so bad anymore... But now that I know better, I'll NEVER ever let anyone do that to me or my Wolf again :nono:. I'm not going back there, I'm going to keep looking and trust my gut.


Yes, keep looking and learning. We ended up with a class that primarily used rewards- based training, but Bails was on a prong for the heeling work. It was a great compromise.

Bailey just sent you a friend request.  Haha, I'm not the only one who has a fb page for their dog, yay!!!!!


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## Anastasia (Oct 7, 2011)

If you are looking for obedience training you may want to check into Home

She is in Marlton so not to far from you. She came highly recommended on this board.


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