# Question about police tracking



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I seem to have read that the police k9s will sometimes come out and help to locate wandering alzheimer's patients or other lost folks who aren't bad guys. Do they use the same dogs to track down this type of person as to track a bad guy trying to elude them?

If so, how does the dog know to act differently if he finds the person ahead of his handler?

I would think if someone was lost in a wildnerness area they would call SAR, not the police k9s, but I thought I had read that the actual police k9s sometimes help find lost people and was just wondering about it


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would say the majority of missing persons are rapidly resolved by police both with and without k9s. Their tracking dogs are on lead and they can control before they get to the person. Not all police tracking dogs bite. Down here a lot of the bloohounds don't bite folks and are often used. 

They have dogs loaded and ready to go at all times unlike SAR who may need to wrap things up at work, go home, get changed, get the dog etc.....Early in the incident is important for SAR but having LE as first line makes a lot of sense.

A primary difference is LE K9s typically train on fresher tracks than SAR trailing dogs so as the time goes on the SAR dog is often a better resource for figuring out a direction of travel to help direct the air scent dogs and ground searchers.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I track quite a few missing / endangered persons each month. I am called out to track missing Alzheimer's / Dementia patients and autistic children that wander off. I respond to these calls while working my normal shift or get called out at all hours of the night to go and track missing persons. 

I have had many successful tracks of missing alzheimer's, endangered, suicidal subjects or autistic children. The longest distance was over a mile and was predominately hard surface through neighborhoods and into the woods. The longest search was three hours for a missing woman with early on set dementia. 3 hours of tracking / trailing through a swamp, which turned into an area search, because I was determined to find this lady and wouldn't give up. She was missing for two hours before I was called out to search. It took nearly an hour to walk her 3/4 mile out of the swamp because of the tough conditions. 

All of our dogs are "find and bite" as our primary objective is tracking felony suspects. Boomer tracked an armed robbery suspect Saturday night, directly to his car. He then alerted to the car for narcotics. A subsequent search of the vehicle based on Boomer's narcotics alert, led to us recovering Marijuana, two guns, the clothing worn in the robbery, the cash stolen from Papa John's and other drug paraphernalia. The subjects were ID'd in 2 other robberies, a 7-11 and a Church. Saturday was a good night, two apprehensions and 15 felony charges between the two suspects, based on Boomer's work. 

When searching for an endangered person, I keep the dog close. I watch the dog and focus on the "proximity alerts." Obviously, tracking a missing person requires different tactics than tracking a violent felon. We use our Patrol Dogs for both, we just modify our handling techniques.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The state police train their K9's around my area...different places every Thursday I see them somewhere. Usually 6 or more teams get together at the fire station before they disperse to train. 
I would love to volunteer to be a 'victim' but my schedule doesn't allow it and approaching them would be odd. They were in my back woods a month ago, and dogs track other handlers...so I think they do need different people to "track". 

If I were a victim, I'd be carrying a very nice tug toy/ball...lol

From what I know, we don't have an active SAR team within an hours drive.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

It is nice to hear that LE is training for trailing /tracking.. It isn't the discipline that most like due to the running and logistics in setting trails etc... 

Great job Slamdunc!!!!! 

I find it interesting how dome areas are all about the trailing /tracking and other areas (like a county near me) aren't at all... It, to me, is an important discipline and one that if neglected severely hampers the success a department can have..


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Hineni7 said:


> It is nice to hear that LE is training for trailing /tracking.. It isn't the discipline that most like due to the running and logistics in setting trails etc...
> 
> Great job Slamdunc!!!!!
> 
> I find it interesting how dome areas are all about the trailing /tracking and other areas (like a county near me) aren't at all... It, to me, is an important discipline and one that if neglected severely hampers the success a department can have..


Thanks!

I am running a patrol school now with 2 green dogs and 1 green handler. Tracking / trailing is a large component of my Patrol School. Tracking / Trailing is our bread and butter. You can't catch people if you can't trail them. 

We do hard surface scent discrimination trailing training. We are in our second week of the school. All of our tracking / trailing training so far has been in Walmart parking lots or Mall parking lots. Traffic, and folks walking across the track creates a realistic environment for the dogs. Tracking / Trailing (we do both) on grass or vegetated surfaces is easy. I do not progress to grass or woods until the dog can follow a track for at least a 1/2 mile on asphalt. Then going to grass is super easy for the dogs. We knock out the hard surfaces first and lay a foundation in busy streets and parking lots. 

I know that some day I am going to wander off and I want these new guys to track well, so they can find me. :grin2:


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Hineni7,
You have to keep in mind all the tasks that a Patrol Dog must do and tracking is just one of them. 

Our Patrol dogs do:

Building searches
Obedience
Agility
Article / Evidence searches (mostly for other cops keys or cell phones lost in the woods.)
Aggression work and control
Area Searches
Apprehension work
Vehicle takedowns
Officer Safety
Tracking / Trailing

Our Narcotics dogs do:
trained in Marijuana, Meth, Heroin, Ecstasy, Cocaine and Crack Cocaine.
Search vehicles, buildings, luggage, lockers and boats and ships. 

Our Swat dogs:
Perform Covert searches and guided searches of high risk warrants and high risk subjects.
Cover Perimeter and are exposed to Flash Bangs, gas and the LRAD
specially picked to search confined spaces like crawl spaces and attics. 

Boomer is a Dual Purpose Patrol / narcotics and SWAT dog. He does all of the above and then some. He waves to kids at demos while wearing sunglasses, opens the car door (a very bad trick) and has entertained thousands of people. 

It is hard to be proficient in everything we do, but tracking is super important. If you can't find em; you can't catch em.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Whether or not LE dogs are trained scent discriminating seems to very by department from what I have been seen. 

I know one department who said point blank - GSDs cannot discriminate, only Bloodhounds can. Even after they tested a GSD who flawlessly worked a very complex urban track with contamination. This was a friend's dog (she eventually became LE for another department) and they set up the problem to mess up the dog but it did not.

Do you also worked aged tracks? How tight are you on trailing when it comes to allowable distance from the footfall track? We have had great arguments on that one with one group allowing fringe scenting the other wanting the dogs truer to the track.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Slamdunc said:


> I track quite a few missing / endangered persons each month. I am called out to track missing Alzheimer's / Dementia patients and autistic children that wander off. I respond to these calls while working my normal shift or get called out at all hours of the night to go and track missing persons.
> 
> I have had many successful tracks of missing alzheimer's, endangered, suicidal subjects or autistic children. The longest distance was over a mile and was predominately hard surface through neighborhoods and into the woods. The longest search was three hours for a missing woman with early on set dementia. 3 hours of tracking / trailing through a swamp, which turned into an area search, because I was determined to find this lady and wouldn't give up. She was missing for two hours before I was called out to search. It took nearly an hour to walk her 3/4 mile out of the swamp because of the tough conditions.
> 
> ...


Thanks Slamdunc. Amazing work that you & your dogs do.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Nancy,
We do more "trailing" than tracking with our K-9's. There is no doubt that a good single purpose Bloodhound with an experienced handler can trail better than a dual purpose dog. Those dogs are built for it. I don't think that a GSD can't do an excellent job, it is just training time allocated to tracking vs other disciplines. 

If all I did was track with Boomer he would be an outstanding tracking dog. 

We allow our dog to trail and go where ever the scent takes them. As you know, many factors affect the scent or trail, wind, rain, temperature, terrain, time of day, humidity, etc. The rafts are often carried off the actual track and our dogs are allowed to cast and work the scent cone as the dog sees fit. He has the nose and the super senses. I simply follow the "compass." Many of our dogs will short cut a track and may be a good distance off the actual track, but hot on the odor and working. Our dogs can fringe and we will follow them as long as they are working the odor. 

The oldest track that I have run is 8 hours, in a torrential downpour. It rained about 2" that day and poured for most of the track. It was a burglary where the suspects fled out the back door of an apartment. I figured it was a zero chance of tracing anything. But, I felt really bad for the victim and just wanted to try everything. The track was about 2/3's of a mile through a heavily populated apartment complex. Boomer tracked to the building the suspect lived, the track ended there. I checked the next 4 buildings on that street with a negative indication. Through some additional work I was able to determine that the suspect lived in a apartment on the 2nd floor. Normally, for criminal tracks I don't do aged tracks. Everyone has a cell phone and most suspects that do run from an unplanned event "phone a friend" and get picked up. Even in our rural areas.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Thecowboysgirl,

Thanks! 

Most days it is a really fun and a very rewarding job. 

Other days, not so much. When the job stops being fun I will be out. Going to work now and I will be seeing where I stand in our State Retirement system.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

So do you have an outer limit on fringing? I know the further they fringe the harder it is to recover a lost track. I know some who have gotten off 100-200+ feet but then some old bloodhound handlers who only allow 2 leash lengths in training. Perhaps on older tracks (ours are normally 12-24+ hours) the trail gets broken up even more over time. 

In all fairness, I work a cadaver dog and am training and air scent dog so am not expert on trailing and tracking .


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Slamdunc,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I appreciate all the work you and other LE's perform for us regular folks. 

Lynn & Traveler


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Jocyon said:How tight are you on trailing when it comes to allowable distance from the footfall track? We have had great arguments on that one with one group allowing fringe scenting the other wanting the dogs truer to the track.


I have a (personal) issue with this line of this thinking (not saying that you believe this or aimed at you Nancy  ) .. I am of the opinion that those that try to be so astringent in their 'trailing' and their dogmatic insistence that the scent MUST be within a certain amount of distance from 'actual track' (and who knows for sure unless only working known tracks in training) have the wrong mindset... Whether it is LE or SAR, we are trying to save people's lives by finding them, or for apprehension... Why are we using the dog if we 'know' where the scent is??? 

ASCT has done alot of research through well known universities about scent and how far it can blow... For instance: For each mile per hour of wind odor can drift 10ft! For every degree of a slope odor can drift 14ft! Now add aging, contamination, bldgs that 'breathe in and out', rain, heat, humidity or lack of, cars, terrain which can 'allow or encourage' scent drift (like asphalt, concrete, open fields, large bodies of water, rivers, etc) or be caught and held, etc... 

When we as humans interfere with our interpretation and assumption of where scent is and then restrict the dog to that limited scope, we substantially limit the chances of success... Personally, I think it is arrogant of us as humans, although natural to do... It takes faith and proven success in trainings and actual deployment to 'blindly' follow your dog.. But if you can read the dog well, you will know if he/she is working the scent or not... 

Yes, sometimes air currents can reek havoc on the scent picture.. The dog gets a waft of fresh scent and follows it only to be led into a scent pool, or nothing, BUT, that is where reading your dog comes in, and knowing where the last true 'trail' marker was at so you can get back to it and on your way... I know that if I was lost and scared, hurting and cold I want the dog that trails and uses ALL of their abilities (including air scent when appropriate) to shortcut the trail and find me, rather than the overly astringent dog team that follows my crazy 5mile trail within 6ft of my actual footfall... Lol.. 

I am not saying I expect to say a trail dog air scenting and griding for a scent cone.. I will give an example : a few days ago I was working a 17hr aged double blind trail.. It was in the wilderness with mtn rises on either side and a river in between.. A fire road cut in between the mtns and river... My boy worked the trail mostly on the river side even though the subject had crossed the river (which we did too about 150ft down stream of her crossing) and worked the hillside across the fire road... We found our subject.. The hillside she worked was sloped, the scent drifted down the hill, skated across the gravel road, rolled down the hill across the river and settled in the flat and heavily treed area (which also gets a ton of fog in the night and morning hours).. When we compared gps trails, he was mirroring her movements parallel to the trail the whole time... This was a double blind trail. I had no clue where she was or how she got there and was done solo... 

Anyhow, just my thoughts and perspective on being to scripted on trails... IPO, definitely, SAR or LE, absolutely not, trust the dog he knows his nose and the scent..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think some of these questions arose from those we have had concerning air scent dogs. We train scent specific on the air scent dogs but setting up solid double blind problems and getting reliability statistics is more of a challenge due to the many problems with having consistent studies. 

Our observations have been that as as distance increases discrimination seems less reliable. The scent picture would have to change as distance increases by the sheer fact that heavier parts of it would travel less far than the lighter components. The raft theory, I understand, is less accepted though still the volatiles remain. Of course it is all fascinating. At which point is the dog just finding any person out there and not the specific person? Of course even discriminating human vs non human is a form of discrimination and upon the find there would be some matching-or could the dog possibly say "not me person" and reject if it was the wrong person. 

I have certainly had distance alerts on cadaver at greater than 1 mile distance ....... Deb Palman had an interesting paper on that. But cadaver is less differentiation than specific human scent (though maybe not-just a different kind of differentiation. Rambling on........sorry don't mean to sidetrack......

I was just wonder Slamdunc's perception as most LE I have met tend to be more on the gradient of track-sure vs trailing on even their scent discriminatory trailing dogs-though even they argue back and forth on that.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Here is a pretty interesting article that tracks (hahahah pun intended) the theme of this thread:
Man's Best Friend: The Importance and Impact of Truth in K9 Handling - ITS Tactical


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Jocoyn said: ".... Our observations have been that as as distance increases discrimination seems less reliable. The scent picture would have to change as distance increases by the sheer fact that heavier parts of it would travel less far than the lighter components. The raft theory, I understand, is less accepted though still the volatiles remain. Of course it is all fascinating. At which point is the dog just finding any person out there and not the specific person? Of course even discriminating human vs non human is a form of discrimination and upon the find there would be some matching-or could the dog possibly say "not me person" and reject if it was the wrong person. "

I would agree, in general... But environment, terrain etc while track is being laid and up until track is run and completed play a huge part in the actual trail outcome... I've watched my dogs run almost dead on footstep for footstep (Comparing gps tracks post find), and if watched them work trails parallel to the laid track but well off the actual foot fall... These trails are almost always laid in well contaminated areas (the trail I posted about earlier started in a campground area went deep into woods and back into busy campground area and along well traveled gravel fire road) so it is scent discrimination or my dogs would 'find' anyone who had crossed over their trail... This would include urban trails as well.. 

I run blind (single blind for me is when I know some component of the track, be it general area of ending, a landmark that is passed, or I have to 'break the blind' on a double blind... Double blind for me is just that, I have zero knowledge other than PLS of where subject is, often who it is, nor any other component of the trail) trails 40% of the time, double blind 40% and known/technical 20% on average with negatives thrown in the mix several times a month ... I have 2 dogs and both are run on separate trails.. So I personally believe, I get a good idea of how my dogs (not saying all dogs) run, and the distance they can operate in given conditions from the actual track... 

I think alot of confusion comes from the difference between tracking and trailing.. Tracking is very close to actual track if not on top of it.. Trailing is recognized the dog can use whatever resources he needs to find the person, be it air or ground scent... My job as a SAR handler is to find that person and helpy dog however they find the strongest source of scent.. If that means while on the trail of the person the wind suddenly blasts them a whiff of the person and my dog pulls off the track and beelines to them because of that air scent, then that is what I do... Many strict tracking handler's would call that a fail, as would some organizations that certify dogs.. I call that an epic win and success.. I'm not tracking in sport (I do know this isn't what is being suggested, I'm just clarifying my perspective and reasoning)... 

I certify through ASCT and IPWDA, as well as in house... I am both exhilarated and terrified when I get a call... I am not successful in all my trails, I have to break blind at times and I record most of my trails for reevaluation afterwards... I personally believe it is easier to train a trail dog before it becomes air scent as opposed to air scent before trail for the very purpose of the dog learning to lock down the specific scent on the ground, as opposed to riding air currents solely.. But again, these are just my personal observations and opinions... 

I also often have 2 people hiding in their end spot, about 20 to 30ft away, the subject is the only one to socialize with the dog IF, they are chosen... Time and again my dogs will run to the correct person, even over a cherished person... Have they made mistakes? Absolutely.. Are they pretty consistent about whom they find? Yes.. 

I too am fascinated by scent and it's way of flowing and the dogs way of detecting it and following it... Also very curious as to Slamdunc thoughts on this matter  

Great article reference Karin!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Nanaimo police dog tracks down woman missing for 4 days in wilderness | Globalnews.ca


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

The RCMP are freaking awesome at trailing /tracking (although that article wasn't about trailing specifically, it was an air scent find) and I use a similar style of training for my dogs... So glad that lady was found, great news


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Think I should have clarified a similar style of training that the RCMP use for teaching trailing.... Reread what I typed and it could have looked like I used helicopters, lol!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Hineni7 said:


> .
> 
> I think alot of confusion comes from the difference between tracking and trailing.. Tracking is very close to actual track if not on top of it.. Trailing is recognized the dog can use whatever resources he needs to find the person, be it air or ground scent... My job as a SAR handler is to find that person and helpy dog however they find the strongest source of scent..


I do understand the distinction but some dogs are more prone to work the fringe than the area of strongest scent and those working in the fringe are more likely to loose the trail. Now how do we know they are on the fringe. I am going to have to take the word of a number of bloodhound handlers I have hid for. 

Through training and you mentioned RCMP (TTD, no?) you still focus on your dog working the strongest human scent and everything I understand is that unless there are conditions such as burn off in a field, rain, etc., the strongest scent is typically close to the footfall track (I gather from countless observations) and you want in early training to set up low wind early day scenarios where the track and trail are close so you know your dog is working strongest odor.. 

Yes it can leave the track. We had someone dinged once on a certification test because the subject crossed the powerline clearcut and the trail was worked at 2pm. Dog lost odor, handler boxed the area in the shade and correctly recovered the trail but got hit for getting too far off the track.

TTD high speed and reading a negative and casting to recover the trail is the first skill the handler (and their flankers!) really needs to master. 

So many approaches that vary widely, RCMP, Kocher, Schettler, Johnson, that I know of.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

You bring up some good points Nancy and I am enjoying our conversation  Because I do everything off my phone, I will just make points on comments rather than trying to copy and paste, answer, copy and paste, answer, etc... 

FRINGE SCENT: yes, it definitely seems like some dogs, often those that come from air scent, or are natural air scent erst tend to ride the 'fringe', or what we consider to be fringe.. But, and this is the key, imho, how do we know that it is fringe? Maybe at that point in time it is the strongest source of scent.. Wind currents run low too, terrain features might 'bump' the scent up, over, down, however.. We have no way of knowing for sure.. I guess if 10 dogs were run over same trail at same time of day, same day, and their trails recorded so one could see the variants between dogs an average might be gathered... IF we know the dogs are following the human scent and not the dogs trail before... Really hard to know for sure.. 

For me, the proof is in the find and subsequent debrief.. If my dog(s) are finding the subjects and running mostly parallel to the trail, I know they aren't 'air scenting' in the typical grid or zigzag, figure 8,etc pattern, they are following the trail using the strongest source of scent for them... Most of the time, they are pretty close to the track, but Hills, ravines, rivers, dense forest and open plains, blogs, cars, homes, asphalt and concrete all make a huge difference how scent blows and lands.. 

For most K9 handler's, the visual of a smoke bomb is used to show how scent blows and to use the wind to our advantage.. So how can that demonstration be used and then someone be dogmatic about how scent stays in one place?? Yes, there are more dense layers and more sticky components in the volatile mixture we call scent, but no one is certain what part the dogs are 'locking' onto for scent discrimination... We assume, we study, we test and we use anecdotal evidence to conclude but we really don't know.. Or there wouldn't be such debate (just reminding that this is all being said in a friendly and conversational tone.. Text can sound harsh when not intended ) 

-TOO FAR OFF TRACK DING: honestly, that bothers me immensely! Why? Well, your friend did their job and recovered the track and finished the test.. That is more real world conditions (losing the trail) then a dog staying glued to a track the whole way... I take issue with the fact that we test and train for real life scenarios... To be dinged or failed because one was 'too far' off a trail when they are still working and their dog is in odor, or, they are recovering the trail but still within their allotted time is wrong.. In a real life scenario you don't know where the person is and if your dog finds the person that is all that matters (or get correct DOT) 

I have a good friend who was testing on a 12hr aged trail. The night before and all night, they had 30mph winds.. When she got there to test, her dog cast, got correct DOT and trailed a few yards with head pops to the left and towards the road. He suddenly turned left and headed about 30m to his left and up the road about 10m and to a car where he put his paws up and wagged and tried to get in... My friend noticed SAR gear in the back. The evaluators asked what she was going to do and she said she would cast him from here.. She did and the dog caught the exit trail from car to hiding place.. In my mind, a successful test; dog got correct DOT, was working trail but strongest scent pulled dog to fresher trail and a find.. She was failed.. The previous nights conditions were not factored in, nor the fact it was a horse shoe track and one end of the track blended with the other.. Nope, it was a fail.. 

In my mind, this is one of the biggest problems SAR face: forgetting why we are here, to save lives.. Not be IPO tracking.. Certainly rules should be in place but let the dog work... If correct DOT us gotten, the dog is working trail and not obviously air scenting and griding, and the dog makes the find... That is real world when double blind.. Using all resources to your advantage to save lives... Just my thoughts... 

METHODS OF TRAINING : you mentioned RCMP or ttd, kocher, Schettler... TTD and Schettler are my main source of knowledge... They mix well enough (although Schettler doesn't advise running, and I did in the beginning and jog still) and I voraciously read and study scent and others success and failures in trailing... While there are different ways to get same results the results are what we are after: success in finding the lost... If the success and consistency in that success is had, then sweet!  I am all for it. There will always be 'new' ways to do something and until we fully understand the mechanics of scent/odor and what the dog follows, debate will always be present (probably even after haha)...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You are right that the objective is to find the person or, at a minimum, for a trailing dog to establish a direction of travel. That is exactly WHY we are here so when a trailing dog goes so far afield as to NOT be able to recover a lost trail then it becomes a less valuable asset. The one who did recover was able to box just like you would box and intersection on an urban trail but would you box an entire city block?

I agree your friend should not have failed-but she should not have passed either because what was being tested was not enough. I have to go out of my way to make sure my little female air scent dog cannot pick up the track of the subject in training because she will trail straight into them. The only trailing she did was early on for scent discrimination training.

A number of years ago a friend set up an elaborate 3 mile long (with all kinds of challenges) 24 hour trail for me. Same thing. She exited about 200 yards from her entrance (she returned to that site by another path the next day) and did not take into account that the wind could change. One head pop and through a creek and over a hill and we had both looked at each other and had a good laugh.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Nancy said : You are right that the objective is to find the person or, at a minimum, for a trailing dog to establish a direction of travel. That is exactly WHY we are here so when a trailing dog goes so far afield as to NOT be able to recover a lost trail then it becomes a less valuable asset. The one who did recover was able to box just like you would box and intersection on an urban trail but would you box an entire city block?

If it was necessary, yes... Scent does tricky things ESPECIALLY in urban work.. However, as the dog handler it is my job to read the nuances and body language of my dog. Those changes can often tell me where the dog got 'lost' on the trail. I would go back to where I knew my dog had odor and recast and see if they can pick up odor from there. If I have a flanker I am telling them to mark way points where I note indications or small alerts.. Many may never be used, but on tricky trails it is important to know what your dog is telling you... 

I'm not arguing for the sloppy dog or lazy dog handler who makes an air scenting dog look like a trailing dog... As a trailing dog handler I have run well over 600 different trails with my dogs.. I vary aging, distance, location, subjects, starts, negatives etc.. As I said before, most trails are run pretty close to the track laid, but definitely not all. Certain nuances are observed and when different dogs do similar things I am confident in my assessment of what could be happening... 

For me, while I am strict about how trails are laid, so air scenting isn't likely, during training, I am also 100% happy if my dog on a double blind (and my subject did a horse shoe trail or something similar where once DOT is established and trail begun dog can air scent to end spot) uses all its resources and goes to the 'freshest scent' and find my subject.. That is their job and I would be a fool to stop them and tell them "no no doggie, follow the old trail, we only find our subjects after running the whole trail." 

Now, the subject... That is another matter. While happy with my dog doing their job I will be quite ticked off at the subject (we are talking trail layers who know better, not some newbie who has no clue) for laying a bone head trail because I want my dogs to practice trailing, not air scenting... 

I've had this very scenario happen which of course blew the double blind... So, I had the subject walk away and hide elsewhere and I cast my dog further up on the now known trail, and run the trail with the hot track being blind at the end... That is so the dogs practice trailing, but what they did to find the subject was correct: that is what SAR dogs are supposed to do... I guarantee any person actually lost would not object (nor would LE or the family members) if my dog or any trailing dog did just that.. Started a trail and aborted the trail when subjects fresh scent caressed their nose... It is a find and their job...

I would be sure to mark the head pop and proximity alert my dog gave as a way point in case it was a scent pool, or the fresh scent the dog suddenly got was a fluke chimney effect or some other air current that resulted in a loss of scent. That way we could continue the trail and still find subject... 

I think we are on the same page for the most part.. Debates on where odor is and what it is doing will survive long after we depart the fields of SAR, lol... I do believe flunking a dog for doing their job is ridiculous.. If certain components are completed (DOT established and trail begun) and weather and/ or terrain factor into the why's the dog did what it did... 

Anyhow, I am very curious to Slamdunc and other LE or SAR peeps perspective  Always nice to hear other perspectives and reasons behind it and other ways of doing things..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes, I can tell from your posts that you are extremely vigilant with working trails, particularly negatives, but I would say your persistence in this discipline is, unfortunately, not the norm. I see a lot of sloppy work - when you lay a trail and, after only an hour in the morning under still conditions in moist ground and the dog is off a few hundred yards I think there may be a problem. .....I understand the conditions that can move scent (one that really got me once was on a side slope after a heavy rain. WHoo boy)

I would love to see a comprehensive (we are working on this for air scent) set of training scenarios to build on based on real world searches and our own imagination. 

I would love to hear other insights as well as everything I can soak up on scent discrimination. I think Schoon and Hawk are the most up to date on that in regards to identification but not really as applied to distance.. though there is some old CIA stuff on that but they say up to 500 yards and I know cadaver dogs can target human cadaver odor sometimes over a few miles under right conditions .......while ruling out animal remains. 

Ever read Deb Palman's stuff. She has some great articles. The one on distance alerts, I have seen several times in real world situations.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Nancy said: Yes, I can tell from your posts that you are extremely vigilant with working trails, particularly negatives, but I would say your persistence in this discipline is, unfortunately, not the norm. I see a lot of sloppy work - when you lay a trail and, after only an hour in the morning under still conditions in moist ground and the dog is off a few hundred yards I think there may be a problem. .....I understand the conditions that can move scent (one that really got me once was on a side slope after a heavy rain. WHoo boy)

I probably should have clarified myself better.. When I'm talking about scent drift, outside of heavy winds during the trail laying on a hot trail, I'm talking about where aging is 8hrs or more minimum... Anyone the distance of a 'few hundred yards' on an hour aged trail, especially with the conditions you state is truly fooling themselves... It is unlikely those dogs and handler's will continue to pursue trailing as most likely their success rate (if they are honest about themselves, or it is proven in deployment) will be quite low... 

I just did a 17hr aged track (laid at 1800hrs the evening before and run at 1300hrs the next afternoon) that started double blind but ended single blind. My boy got DOT and was on the actual track (was at a high school, asphalt, grass, gravel rd) for about 3/10 of a mile before he turned right (although a head pop to the left made me think that was the track, which it was).. As it turns out, they had just mowed the whole freaking fields.. I confirmed that I thought we went the wrong direction with subject and recast him at the turn point. He then sneezed 3x and chose the field. He was off her trail by about 10ft (we had 7mph SW wind, 60% humidity and 66F) until he hit the street where a right hand turn to the next street occurred. Here he opted to a grass field about 75ft from Rd but parallel for about 50yds before jogging the actual Rd, then into a grassy pasture with trees and to his find...I was pleased with his work, excluding the wrong turn, but I was glad I read him correctly... Not sure if the fresh cut grass was an aversion at first, or if there was some drift somewhere, but he didn't give me a negative before I 'called it' and broke the blind... That isn't good and something we have to work more on... My point on this story is that after that long of aging, he was very close to actual laid track... I figured with the cut grass he would have been off more as the grass gets sprayed all over.. So conditions I expected to be worthy of distance wasn't, lol... 

Deb Palman is great! I would like to attend a clinic from her but I think she is based out of Maine still.. I'm West coast..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes I met her at a NSDA seminar - her speech was captivating and certainly the experience to back it up.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I've read some of her articles and enjoyed them immensely.. As matter of fact, my starting negative practice was because of one of her articles


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Not necessarily pertinent to the OP's original query.....but close enough. I found this of interest as this dog was able to perform a reverse track.

St. Paul police dog follows wandering boy's scent back to his home - StarTribune.com

SuperG


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I think this was a great article and was on track (haha) with Op's question.. The officer used his clothes and the scent from the kid (he had carried him around for awhile) as a scent article, so the kids didn't have contact with the dog (which follows the OP question of bite dogs doing SAR work) 

An interesting side note is having the dog backtrack the whole way... Since we teach (we being SAR) the dog to follow from oldest to freshest of appropriate trail (be it hot, warm or cold trail the freshest track will be the most recent laid and going the direction of travel.. Outside of extreme odd circumstances) for the most part, most dogs dislike being asked, or at least question going in reverse... Article search for LE probably makes it more common then SAR, although I've watched my dogs backtrack to where I hid the HR, in the beginning, lol...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Edwin Grant (Franklin NC) is a retired wildlife officer who was mentioned in Kocher's book for his great success with backtracking for recovering evidence. He backtracked to Eric Rudolph's hideout....He is also very good with HRD.


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