# Please help..



## SkyeCaitlin88 (Oct 25, 2010)

I will flatly put out there..
I have never owned a German Sheppard, and have NO idea how to know if the puppy I am planning on buying is fit for our family or not! 
Ok.. Now that I got that out of the way!
My husband and I have been contemplating getting a dog for years, and have finally decided the time is right for our family!
We have agreed that a German Sheppard will be perfect for our family!
We have never fully trained a dog ourselves, and plan on using a local obedience place for lots and lots of help!
http://oscarspetresort.com/training.asp
We actually found our German Sheppard accidentally!
We just moved to Lancaster (Amish country) and are having a deck built on the back of our house, by a wonderful Amish man!
I called one day to let him know that our permits went through, and on the message machine, it also said, something about German Sheppard puppies!!
The ones that message was referring to are gone! They belonged to his brother, but amazingly, his own AKC German Sheppard JUST had babies (10/11/10) and he is willing to sell us one, with papers, for 500 because he loves our large family, and we are already paying him an arm and a leg for the deck 
We went today to see the puppies and they are adorable!!!
He keeps the mom and puppies outside in a LARGE almost shed like contraption that is lifted off the ground, with a door out the back into a fenced area!(he’s VERY good with his hands, I can tell he made this himself!)
I’m VERY confused as to what I need to ask for from him to make sure I am getting a good, healthy dog...
He is a great guy, is very adamant about who is getting his puppies, and keeping them till they are at LEAST 8 weeks!!
What questions should I ask him?
What paperwork should I expect from him before I purchase the dog?
Any other info you can give a future, nervous, German Sheppard mommy?!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Trying not to jump to conclusions but you're in puppy mill country. Please be sure to check out the breeder and background of the pup carefully. 

How many dogs does he have? Any references? Are the sire and dam on site? Does he work his dogs or just breed for resale? You mentioned the dam is AKC registered, how about the sire? 
Have they had x-rays sent to OFA? (that's to check the parents for possible hip and elbow problems) 
Does his kennel have a name? (doubting they have a website if they're Amish...but maybe?)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some people will probably come on to say that the Amish in Lancaster PA are notorious puppy millers. 

I got one of mine from an Amish fellow with a great shed set up, pups were on wood chips and they had lots of room, it was clean, and their two kids were playing with the puppies. 

He had two bitches and they were in a huge fenced in field. I thought it was an ideal set up for puppies. 

But there are some things I did not know. At no time while I was there, did I see any King Charles Spaniels. And I was in his home to fill out paperwork. They were no where where I could see them, but a month later he was advertiseing King Charles Spaniels. And I think later I saw other breeds advertised as well.

So the question was, was there some huge barn out back or down the road where all the bitches and dogs were kept in terrible condition, and only puppies are brought up when they are about ready to go?

Some things sound good, he wants to keep the pups for at least eight weeks, they are AKC -- if he is pumping out a lot of dogs, AKC will likely inspect at some time. 

I would ask the following questions:

1. What breeds of dogs do you breed?

2. How many litters per year do you usually have?

3. Will the puppies be seen by a vet and given any shots?

4. What lines are the parents, could I see their pedigrees and any health certificates? 

I called the boy's breeder back a few years later to let him know how the dog was doing. He acted like he really did not want to talk to me, and that he got sick and had to sell all his shepherds. These were the only breeders I have ever been to that asked if I was going to keep the dog in the house.

You can never tell really with people. Some Amish people are great people. We have had work done by them and it was excellent. My neighbors are Amish, they have a dog, a farm dog, that has the absolute best life imaginable for a dog. Other Amish people have a very different attitude about critters, how they should be kept, etc. 

The dog I got was out of a titled German showline imported male, and the dam was out of imported German showline sire and dam. He was a nice dog. Did he come out of a puppy mill? I am leaning that way.

The reason we do not support Millers is not because the dog may be unhealthy or have issues, but because, by supporting them we are encouraging them to breed their dogs over and over again. We are conserned with the health and conditions that the adult dogs live in 24/7, 365 days per year. If your Amish people did not come from Lancaster County, I would probably not be so skeptical. I guess you could ask to see the kennel and adult dogs. If they are in good condition, and in good conditions, base your decision on that.

Good luck.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you are getting the dog for $500, that is cheap. You cannot expect all the ducks to be in a row. That is, you are not going to get everything you want, like OFA certificates on sire and dam, titles on sire and dam, warranty on puppy -- I actually did get a hip guarantee. You might get some of everything you want, but not all. If you want it all, you will probably pay 2-3 times as much for starters.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Oh my gosh!!!! His brother had just sold off all of his puppies, but fortunately his dog had just had puppies?!?! What a coincidence!!!

*sigh*

Like Whiteshepherds said, trying not to jump to conclusions or be prejudiced in any way, but you are in the middle of puppy mill country and it is not at all uncommon for Amish people to raise dogs as a cash crop. 

To make sure you're getting a healthy dog, you want to look for at least hip certifications and preferably elbow certifications as well. Puppies should have their first set of shots and possibly the second set before going to their new homes. Most reputable breeders offer a 1-2 year health warranty that will offer a complete or partial refund if the dog is diagnosed with genetic disorders before a certain age. 

To ensure that your dog has a good temperament for a family pet, you want to make sure that the parents have some sort of titles, whether it be in agility, obedience, Schutzhund, etc. 

Honestly, for a puppy out of non-titled,non-OFA'ed parents with "papers" $500 is a bit on the medium to high end, so don't think you're getting a deal. Look around this forum for some of the articles about choosing a reputable breeder.


Please read http://www.wildhauskennels.com/breeder.htm about choosing a good breeder. 

This dog will hopefully be your companion for the next 10-15 years. Don't rush into anything.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But just because sire and dam ARE a-stamped, titled, does not mean that they are as they look? A-stamped is the german hip rating. 

I do not know anywhere you can expect to get an AKC registered dog that does have ofas and titles on sire and dam and health guaranty for $500.

And if anyone has two sets of shots in a eight week old puppy, I would not purchase it. I read some protocol the other day that said first set should be given at nine weeks, then every four weeks for two months, and rabies at six months. 

Usually I do first shots at 6-7.5 weeks old, and then every four weeks. Worming should be done several times prior to picking the pup up, and then every time you take him to the vet for shots.


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## SkyeCaitlin88 (Oct 25, 2010)

This dog is his only dog, it is a family dog, and this is her second litter. He said he doesnt breed her for a living, but wanted her to at least experience motherhood. I didnt even think to ask how old she was 
The mother was onsite, adn when we got there, jumped out of the 'shed' and laid on the ground in front of the door. I assumed trying to "shepard" us away from the babies?
Jonas has 3 little girls himself, and all the girls were playing with the puppies!
There was a barn, that we walked through, but it was only horse and buggy equipment, and lots and lots of wood! (he is a deck builder)
The mother dog is named Lassie, and is beautiful, even with 3 extra adults there, and Jonas kids handeling the squealing puppies (who are 2 weeks old now) she still let me pet her and was very friendly.
The only thing jonas mentioned that confused me, is that Lassie had to be debarked? Iguess his neighbor was complaining that she barked VERY loud at night, and as not to argue with them, had this done.
Im nervous asking all these questions because it seems to me he is just selling a family dogs puppies? But I guess I deserve my questions to be answered for a dog I plan to keep for years to come, right?!
So good questions would be-
Do you have paperwork on the dam and sire to prove they are AKC?
Have they had x-rays sent to OFA? Do you have the OFA certificates on sire and dam?
Do you have titles on sire and dam?
Is there a warranty on the puppy?
Do you offer a hip guarantee?
Will the puppies be seen by a vet and given any shots?
What lines are the parents, could I see their pedigrees and any health certificates?


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

SkyeCaitlin88 said:


> I will flatly put out there..
> I have never owned a German Sheppard, *and have NO idea how to know if the puppy I am planning on buying is fit for our family or not! *


I think that first you need to know is the GSD a fit for you. How much excercise can you give a dog daily? GSDs are a very active breed. Are you okay with shedding and grooming, especially if you get a long haired GSD? GSDs shed and a long haired GSD needs more grooming than the normal haired GSD. 

I think that you should do some research on the GSD. Even what Animal Planet has on the GSD may help. You may want to look into some breed basic books or go to GSD sites and read about the cons and pros of a GSD.

And like everyone else said, don't rush into this. We are also here to help you.


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## SkyeCaitlin88 (Oct 25, 2010)

He also said normally his dogs are 695?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

You would be much better off contacting a rescue. They can match what you are looking for with the right dog or puppy. Seriously, you are in the middle of puppymill country and this sounds way too suspicious to me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

For 695, he should have the sire and dam ofa'd or a-stamped.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

SkyeCaitlin88 said:


> This dog is his only dog, it is a family dog, and this is her second litter. He said he doesnt breed her for a living, but wanted her to at least experience motherhood.


 She needed to "at least experience motherhood" a second time? Did she not get enough of an experience the first time? He doesn't breed "for a living" but I bet that extra $5000-$7000 per litter comes in handy, huh?





SkyeCaitlin88 said:


> Im nervous asking all these questions because it seems to me he is just selling a family dogs puppies? But I guess I deserve my questions to be answered for a dog I plan to keep for years to come, right?!
> So good questions would be-
> Do you have paperwork on the dam and sire to prove they are AKC?
> Have they had x-rays sent to OFA? Do you have the OFA certificates on sire and dam?
> ...


Yes, you deserve to ask as many questions as you can come up with for a dog you're going to spend the next 10 years of your life with and $500 for.


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## SkyeCaitlin88 (Oct 25, 2010)

There was also only 6 puppies! I dont know if that matters tho..


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## SkyeCaitlin88 (Oct 25, 2010)

Anyone use Facebook that would like to be my offical GSD go to?!


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Do you know how much GSD puppies bite? They are called land sharks for good reason! German Shepherds are also nicknamed German Shedders because they shed nonstop. Also "velcro dogs" because they stick to their people. They need interaction with their family. They need tons of exercise both mentally and physically. They need training their whole life. They need jobs.

This breeder doesn't sound reputable to me but its your money. If the sire/dam don't at least have hip cert then I would walk away if I were you.

Also, AKC papers don't mean anything about the quality of the dog. They don't even prove a dog is purebred. Just becuase the pups are cute (all puppies are cute) and play with his kids means nothing. Puppies are not aggressive. A cute playful pup could grow into a fear aggressive bag of nerves no matter how much training and socializing you do.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I would not get the puppy. I think you have alot more research to do before you get a GSD, especially if you are asking if a GSD is right for you. Spend a few months on this board. I thought I was ready- and I have had a few surprises with my pup!! GSDs are different than any other breed. They require a TON of exercise, a TON of training, and TONS TONS TONS of socialization. I am lucky that I am home every day to provide these things for my pup. If I worked a normal day job there's no way I would be able to properly raise my baby GSD. I socialized the heck out of my puppy. He met/meets/has contact with any where from 10-30 people per week besides us, and we go a MINIMUM of 3 places per week, not counting walks. And I am slowly working through fear issues with him. If I had a day job I would not be able to keep up with his socialization and training and he would for sure become dangerous. Without the titles you can't prove temperment. And that's exactly where I went wrong when I got him. I thought I don't need titles because I don't plan on using him in sport...boy was I wrong, and now it's costing me!

I would be scared because at least in my area, the Amish account for nearly all the puppy mills. It sounds as if that may be true for other parts of the country as well. I also would not support a breeder who breeds his female so she can experience motherhood...that tells me he didn't breed for the RIGHT reasons at all. And what's with the de-barking? Maybe if he would have trained her properly there wouldn't be barking issues.....?? _Is_ she trainable?? Those are just some other questions floating through my mind!! Taking her voice box out to curb nusiance barking tells me that he doesn't take the time he needs with the dog....and if she can't be trained not to bark all night, then maybe that's not the kind of GSD you would want...

I have learned from my experiences with breeders, and now look at the WHOLE picture instead of what I WANT to see. So I am trying to open you up to those possibilities. Cause puppies are cute, and love is blind...and sometimes we don't look at what we don't want to see. Consider all the possibilities!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I've been having a long facebook-chat conversation with the OP.  We're discussing lots of things.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i'm a facebook user every single day. As far as your puppy decisions go, its entirely up to you if you want to spend $500 on that puppy. Would i recommend it? Only if you can handle the possible health issues that can come up quickly and without warning in a puppy mill dog. I have my Shasta. She's a PB. I've met both her parents. Her litter was accidental as her mom was scheduled to be spayed. I paid $150 for her. She's technically from a BYB. She's 6 months old now and one of the sweetest dogs. She's very well behaved for her age and wicked smart. Would i do it again if i came across another PB GSD pup for that price? Probably not. I have no health certs for her. I do have vet references in regards to her parents and she came with her first set of shots done and a 20lb bag of food. But i also know what i want in a dog and i have an idea of the breeder i'll be going to when that time comes. To get the quality dog i want i fully understand i'll be paying a minimum of $1000. I suggest you wait, do your research and get a good quality GSD pup. In the meantime, look through rescues. A rescue is usually easier for a first timer without the obnoxious puppy stages.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

DO NOT BUY FROM THE AMISH! or from a petstore...

Or you are contributing to the continuation of Puppy Mills in the USA. The Amish are a major part of this because dogs are really just farm stock to make $$$$$ from like the chickens and sheep would be. No temperment/health concerns when you just want to have as many puppies as you can as fast as you can to sell sell sell (and kill the adults when they can no longer breed).

Puppymills - Information about puppy mills and how to shut them down.

YouTube - PetShopPuppies's Channel





 




 
Some MUCH better information on finding a good breeder (and supporting them with your money) are:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

Just click on that!


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

All the questions you listed above are great, my first gsd is now 6 months old, please dont' rush into this, especially if you've never fully trained a dog yourself. do some research and talk to different breeders and people who own GSD's this forum is a great place for info. 
I know when I first started looking at GSD's talking to other owners and breeders one of the questions they all asked me was had I ever trained a dog and what kind of dogs had I ownded, so I would be leary if the Amish man you are talking to is not interested in if you've trained a dog or owned dogs before. I've always owned high drive border collies, and I know from personal experience when people asked my about my border collies I talked with them as much about their quirks as their good points, so people didnt' automatically think smart dog easy to train and keep, 
I also am a little leary about his dog being debarked.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Franksmom said:


> All the questions you listed above are great, my first gsd is now 6 months old, please dont' rush into this, especially if you've never fully trained a dog yourself. do some research and talk to different breeders and people who own GSD's this forum is a great place for info.
> I know when I first started looking at GSD's talking to other owners and breeders one of the questions they all asked me was had I ever trained a dog and what kind of dogs had I ownded, so I would be leary if the Amish man you are talking to is not interested in if you've trained a dog or owned dogs before. I've always owned high drive border collies, and I know from personal experience when people asked my about my border collies I talked with them as much about their quirks as their good points, so people didnt' automatically think smart dog easy to train and keep,
> *I also am a little leary about his dog being debarked*.


 
oh i didnt even see that part! debarking is illegal. its considered cruelty. many vets will NOT do it. and if they do and are caught they're license is on the line. i personally wouldnt want to get a dog from anyone that had their own dog debarked. I'm also curious who did the procedure to debark her. Dogs bark all the time and neighbors complain but people dont debark their dogs. They just dont put them in a situation they can bark constantly or they get a bark collar and slowly train the dog not to bark. There are a lot of red flags regarding this whole situation for me. he's giving you a discount because he's doing work for you. is his dog housetrained or does she spend all her time in her own enclosure there? i'd rather spend the money on a quality dog from a quality breeder even if it means i have to save for it. I love my dogs. I wouldnt trade Riley, Zena and Shasta for anything but i do often wish i'd gotten them from a breeder with proven dogs who are titled and certified. I dont have the breeder support that would be nice to have. But i'm also picky about my dogs too. I cant stand untrained dogs. They annoy me and make me want to smack the owners. Plus you never know what kind of temperment issues you may encounter passed from the sire. if i remember right, you only met the dam. Sure she was nice but what about the sire? I'd be worried about what he'd pass on if i werent able to meet him or at least see pictures and know how he interacts with people and other animals.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MaggieRoseLee, I know how compassionate you are on this. But I must say that saying that EVERY Amish person selling puppies is a puppy mill, is a blanket statement that might not be true. 

To the OP, if you cannot come up with the money to pay for health issues for your pet, or to euthanize a pet if it becomes necessary, then do not get a pet. Buying a pet from a reputable superstar breeder will not guarantee you a healthy puppy. Shtuff happens. It may make the risks better at not having some of the genetic problems. 

Frankly, if you are going to regret not getting this puppy, and you can see that the pups are being well taken care of and socialized, then go ahead. That one pup is not going to make or break Amish puppy mills. The overall attitude might, but we do not KNOW this guy is a puppy mill. 

What we DO know about the Amish is that they are a close knit community, and they use and sell animals as farmers have throughout the centuries. They do not look at their horses as pets, but most of them take good care of them because their survival depends on them. The dogs, sheep, cows, and horses of the Amish I know are better taken care of than some of then my sister in laws pet horses were. 

What is disturbing is not knowing whether there is a puppy mill behind these puppies somewhere. Buying from BYBs, well it is not ideal, and does nothing to support and maintain the breed, but the sire and dam are not doomed to live in cramped unsanitary conditions until they outlive their usefullness at which point they are unceramoniously dumped or more likely terminated. 

The choice is up to you. If you trust this guy, who is more than just letting his bitch experience motherhood as this is her second litter, and he normally charges 695, then go ahead. If you would rather ensure that you are not supporting a puppy mill, then do not buy from him. And use the extra time to find a truly awesome breeder, research the breed, and decide carefully whether a GSD is right for your situation right now, and what type of GSD will best suit your lifestyle. 

I again, going to the best breeder out there will not ensure you a healthy puppy. It may ensure you a replacement pup in the event that certain things go wrong.

Good luck in whatever you decide.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm not sure what my opinion is on this. 

A few weeks ago, a man came into my work with a 5mth old all black gsd puppy that he got from the Amish, while it may go against everything I believe in, if that guy offered to sell me that puppy, I would have taken him in a second,,I liked him THAT much. 

I don't live in that part of the country, but have heard the stories of AMish puppy mills. I don't know if we should group them ALL into being puppy millers. 

My concern would be the health of the parents, and not just going on his 'say so'..

So, no real opinion one way or the other on what you should do


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## SkyeCaitlin88 (Oct 25, 2010)

Both the mother and the father are registered AKC, and he will register the puppy as well before he sells any of them! (do I have to do anything after that?)
This is his dogs second litter she is almost 5 years old. The first litter was just to experience motherhood, he said this litter, to be honest was to shut his brother up! This is his dogs last litter.
I can drop by his house any time I want, or his brothers, whos home is right across from his, to see the mom at his house, or the dad at his brothers! (obviosuly not like I can call first!! lol)
His brother has 2 females, and the male whos is the dad to my puppy. He breeds them every other year, but always to the same male?
The BROTHERS dogs are family pets, but he breeds them every other year around christmas, ARE OFA certificated. His dog, the mother is not, but he has had no issues with her hips.
I asked if the puppy would be seen by a vet and given any shots BEFORE we brought her home, he said no, but that PA law requires US to have the puppy seen with in 10 days.
He also mentioned that at any time we are not able to keep the dog, he would like the dog back, and he will give us a full refund!
All this makes me feel so much better!

What would you think?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

so the male is ofa'd, tho he says no problems with the mother, how would he know unless he xrayed her? just something to think about. 

I do like that he'd take the dog back at any time. Usually, a puppy will come with atleast one set of shots, but if he doesn't well he doesn't and I'm not crazy that he hasn't taken the puppies to a vet to be checked out..what if one had a heart murmur? 

Akc is as good as the paper it's written on, if he's registering, then no you won't have to do anything, unless he's registering the "litter" and then YOU would have to register the puppy individually in your name. He should give you paperwork pertaining to that.

I, again, am not going to say yea or nay,,its your call, go with your gut. Just keep in mind, dogs are not cheap especially if you end up with a serious health issue (just want you to be prepared)..they bite, they chew, they can be worse than having a 2 year old kid..be prepared to lose sleep the first couple weeks, clean up doggie poop/pee accidents..Just things to think about

If you do get this puppy, I would definately take it to a vet for a good checkup within 48 hours,,don't wait, do it asap. 

Puppies are sooooo stinken cute and very hard to resist, try to look at it from your head not your heart..


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

It's good that if you are unable to keep the dog, then he'll give full refund. However, the cons outweigh the pros so much.

To AKC register the puppy you buy from him, you will still have to sign and send in papers with a registeration fee.

I don't like the fact that he is breeding his dog just to shut his brother up. If this were an accident, it'd be different, but he is doing this on purpose. With so many GSDs and GSD mixes dieing in shelters, he NEEDS to be doing this to improve or help the breed somehow. 

Also, even though the father is certified, the fact that the pups won't be seen by a vet BEFORE you take him or her home is a giant red flag! 

Let me tell you something, I bought from a Backyard breeder once. I had no idea what I was doing. Turns out the puppy had some type of problem where the umbilical cord was cut and that put my puppy at risk. Had the breeder taken the mother to the vet and the vet watched over her when she cut the cord, everything would have been okay. I had to keep an eye on my puppy, because if that lump swells and turns blue, I'd have to get her to the emergency pronto, or she could die!

This is what I think and believe: I wouldn't buy a puppy from him or his brother. 

That's my 2 cents.


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

I don't live that far from Lancaster and I would not recommend buying the pup. There are several good german shepherd breeders in the area that you would be better off going to than to take a chance of buying from a puppy mill. There are way to many red flags from what has been said and yes, it is common to have a nice set up (shed kennels) to sell the pups from pupy mills in that area. Why not give yourself the best chance of having a healthy/quality puppy and contact a reputable breeder. If you would like some recommendations, I can give you some that I know of and I am sure others from this board will help out as well.

Cheryl


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I am torn on this one. I purchased my first GSD from a petstore (I now know better) and what a nightmare she was. We loved her and kept her until she was 11 but she was never a great GSD. My hubby said she wore the GSD clothes but was not the real deal. Since then I have purchased from a good breeder and what a difference!!!! Make sure that you start your GSD adventure with the RIGHT pup.

I use facebook and you can find me at facebook.com/vtwombly. Just make sure when you friend request that you tell me your forum name so I know who you are. That goes for anyone else here that would like to be friends.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would recommend buying the puppy from him. Your paying $500, all the ducks are not perfect. You are not buying breeding stock, you are buying a pet. 

Let's see, he will take the puppy back for a full refund at any time. Hmmmmm. That is better than I or ANY of the wonderful breeders on this site will do, hope you get that clause in your contact in writing. So, Diane, if the puppy has a heart murmur, the OP can wait and see, if it does not go away in a couple of months, she can take the puppy back and get her money back.

I will confess that one of the puppies I sold I took to the vet two times, at 7 weeks, and at 11 weeks and at neither of these times did they find a heart murmur. The new owners took him to the vet at 14 weeks, and there it was. They contacted me and took him to a specialist and had an EKG done on him. They said everything was there, and developed, and it would probably be fine. I extended my full money back gurantee for a month for the heart condition so they could see what happened -- they were already attached to the little guy. 

They took him in about three weeks later and the heart murmur was totally gone. Just something the pup needed to grow out of. 

So what if the dam is not ofa'd if he will give a full refund at any time? If the puppy starts limping and you have it x-rayed and it comes out dysplastic, you can return the puppy for a full refund. That is more than fair, usually the best you can do is a replacement. OFA certified parents do not equal ofa certified offspring. 

You are not promoting breeders who are breeding for the betterment of the breed. Half of those people are being critcized by the other half for ruining the structure and temperament, and the other half are being criticized by the former for breeding incorrect dogs with insane energy levels and drives. You are looking for a pet, and pets exist in both show and working lines, and to be totally politically correct for this board, you would buy from a breeder who falls into one or the other category. In neither category will you get a good dog with all the ducks lined up properly for five hundred dollars. 

From your description of the guys situation, and the brother's situation, they are not horrendous breeders, just ordinary bybs. Actually some of the better bybs, because they are standing behind their dogs with a money back guarantee. (be sure that is in writing.)

The thing is when push comes to shove and you have that dog, you will love that dog and if it sprouts a problem down the line, you are not going to give that dog back no matter what. They are counting on that. If you are willing to give the dog back after raising it for a year, then maybe you are not such a good home and they will gladly buy it back. Fine. But really this is how it ought to be. When we have children, we do not send them back for developing physical or mental problems. We deal with them, and some of them are costly. Same with dogs. 

Good luck in what you decide. If you decide to go with this guy, visit the puppies several times, and keep your eyes and ears open. Visit the sire too. Not to catch them at anything, but to evaluate the dogs and to get a feel for the dog's situation.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

If you go ahead with this pup, get everything in writing. What he says and what he'll put on paper could be 2 very different things.


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## SkyeCaitlin88 (Oct 25, 2010)

Thanks for all your help guys


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## SkyeCaitlin88 (Oct 25, 2010)

We have decided to not get the dog!
We are going to wait a while, and research more, espically with the help of all you awesome dog lovers!!!!!
Anyone know where in PA I could start looking?!


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I think you have made a very wise choice.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Good choice. This is an animal that will hopefully be a part of your life for 10-15 years. Spend a bit of time and get a dog from a breeder that is interested in the breed for the next 100 years, not just the next litter! Many of us spend countless hours researching pedigrees, bloodlines, training methods... the list goes on and on. Save your money a bit longer and get a dog from someone who LOVES the breed and everything about dogs. The breeder should have a goal for each breeding, if they just want a dog to experience parenthood, that is not a goal, nor is wanting their kids to experience it. 
Do some research on health issues, temperament and even colors if it matters. But go in with knowledge and get the best you can!


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