# Full Bite?



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Here is one that I know at least one person will answer.








Do you think there should be so much emphasis on a full bite in SchH Protection? If you do, please explain why. Meaning, what does the full bite mean to you? If you don't think it is necessary or given too much weight in the score etc, please state why you feel this way.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Ah Anne, it is noce to see a post about dogs. My uneducated person will sit back and read.

Val


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Anne, Good question. I think that there is Too much emphasis placed on the full bite in today's judging. Having said that I do think that a full bite is both desirable and necessary. However, I think that more focus is placed on the bite by the judge than the engagement by the dog. I see dogs that have fullbites that skip along, merely going along for the ride. I see dogs with no power and assertiveness in the engagement. But, if the bite is full then they are rewarded to the highest levels. I see strong dogs that may readjust there bite a fraction while trying to dominate, get penalized while the dog who finds comfort in the sleeve gets rewarded. To me this is setting the table for breeders to breed for the prey monsters and thus an imbalance. JMO


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Clifton I think you are absolutely correct. I hope with the article Lance had in the Nov/Dec issue of the UScA magazine things will change back to the more original way of judging a dog.

Rick


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Not long ago, someone sent me a video of a SchH 3 dog doing protection in a trial. The dog had been heavily penalized by the judge for what was called "pulsing" on the sleeve. As I watched the video, each time the dog was hit with the stick he countered by trying to torque the sleeve. This was a smaller Mal and so he was not able to fully counter but the grip did not slip. Every time the dog did this the judge wrote on his pad. The dog was penalized for fighting back which to me said a great deal about the ignornace of that judge.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

^^ I've seen the same sort of thing in trials.

Too often, the dog who grips full, but doesn't *bite*, just goes along for the ride, and shows now power, fight or commitement in his work, but hangs on, is praised over the dog who's bite is maybe not completely full, but he is *biting* not griping, and who shows power and commitment throughout, doesn't just go along for the ride and take the helper's stick hits but instead responds to that pressure and threat by fighting back against the helper. That's not the way it should be.

So yes, I do feel too much emphasis is put on fullness and calmness of the bite alone, without looking at the overall dog and why he is biting the way he bites. Certainly dogs who bite frontal and have chewy bites should be penalized, as those things stem from insecurity. But at the same time, that insecurity will be evident elsewhere in the dog's work not only in the bite. 

But it seems too many judges are looking at specific minutia, like the grip, and judging the whole performance based on that, rather than looking at the dog himself and the overall picture the dog presents. Though I suppose it's much easier to just glance and see a bit of daylight at the back of the mouth, points off, or see the muzzle of the dog move a bit, points off, than it is to read the dog to understand why he is doing what he is doing.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Interesting discussion. For someone who lacks the knowledge and experience to opine but is keen on learning as much as possible, could someone explain why a full bite is desirable and necessary. I always hear so much emphasis placed on the importance of a "genetically full grip" in schutzhund. I have read discussions where a full grip is viewed as being indicative of good nerve and that if a dog does not have full grips it is lacking in confidence or nerve. Is this true in all circumstances?

An interesting counterpoint came up in a recent discussion on another board. The discussion involved the differences between "sport dogs" and "police dogs." It seemed that the general consensus was that most police dogs could do schutzhund but that a large portion of schutzhund dogs could not do police work. Obviously there were disagreements and, like many dog related subjects, I have no basis to opine. However, a canine officer weighed in and noted that some of the dogs that become police K9s had been washed out of schutzhund because they did not have full grips. The officer stated something to the effect that a full grip was not of utmost importance for a police K9 and that sometimes shallower bites cause more damage. If full grips are not necessary in real world police service, why is so much emphasis placed on full grips in schutzhund? Thanks for your time and patience.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

SchH is about the only dog sport that i can think of right now that judges the bite so precisely. yes, there are others that judge the fullness and grip of the bite but dont deduct points for thrashing or "pulsing" as mentioned before. i like a nice full deep bite but since i do not participate in SchH or SchH trials its not a concern for me. i dont like dogs who "typewrite" or transfer. i like a dog that is commited to the bite no matter what the target. since im not into the SchH sport scene i cant give a hard opinion on it but from what i've seen and have learned i think they should focus more on the dog's commitment and stability rather than the strict fundamental's. rather than penalizeing a dog for thrashing, penalize the dog for lack of commitment while still focusing on a nice full bite.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A full calm grip comes from the foundation of our breed. Shallow grips and thrashing would do a lot of damage to the sheep and are not always as effective in controlling the animal. The grip should be full, calm, and hard and used to dominate and over power the sheep (helper). A shallow grip that lacks calmness is as faulty as a dog that has a full calm grip, but lacks power and doesn't try to dominate its opponent. It is unfortunate that many of our judges are incapable of evaluating power and fight or a dog that is actually trying to dominate and control the helper.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I agree with Lisa. The best dogs I have ever worked were exactly what she described. The dogs should fight with their body, I am not really talking about thrashing the sleeve, I am talking about a dog trying to dominate and over-power the helper by countering the threat and attack from the helper. I suppose that some dogs actually really are "pulsing" although I find that word to be ridiculous in the context of SchH. 
I do not see many of these types of dogs, ( like what Lisa is talking about), much anymore although I know they are out there. The other side of this is the training but that's not the topic at the moment. I think, like Lisa, that what the dog does on the sleeve is the biggest indicator of his genetics.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:The dogs should fight with their body, I am not really talking about thrashing the sleeve, I am talking about a dog trying to dominate and over-power the helper by countering the threat and attack from the helper.


What about the dogs that have full, calm grips but instead of torquing (counter) the sleeve will grip/crush it harder on the threat/attack from the helper.. I don't know if you would consider that fighting with their body?

Listening to some helpers they prefer that in the dog vs. the ones the torque..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: The officer stated something to the effect that a full grip was not of utmost importance for a police K9 and that sometimes shallower bites cause more damage.


I find this amusing since one full, powerful grip with a nice strong counter will do more to control a bad guy than a bunch of nippy ones. I also know that not all K9 handlers know what they are talking about. 
Nowadays, us tax payers have to pay to put the bad guys back together again. Therefore, might be better to have police dogs that can really control the bad guys without all the damage. We are broke afterall, it's time to be more frugal.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: What about the dogs that have full, calm grips but instead of torquing (counter) the sleeve will grip/crush it harder on the threat/attack from the helper.. I don't know if you would consider that fighting with their body?


That's coming from the same place in the dog and IMO is also fight. Nothing wrong with that at all. 

Edit to add......as long as the dog is going into the helper.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I also want to add in my response to Leesa that lots of this is a "it depends" kind of situation. Behaviors that can look a lot the same can mean different things depending on what is going on at the time. I like dogs who will try to stop the helper and that requires the dog to pull backwards. However, I personally, do not like to see dogs who pull away when they are threatened. Having said that, if you work a really good dog too hard, ( and also in other situations), they will pull while they are in front of the helper. It is kind of hard to describe, sort of a you have to feel the result of what you do as the helper kind of thing.
Anytime a dog kind of punches into the helper and bites down harder in response to a threat, I think of that as a counter. It is an aggressive act in response to an aggressive act from the helper. However, some dogs will bite really hard when they are a bit afraid. sometimes the hardest bites come from insecurity or a touch of fear. For me, I want to feel a dog do these counters with a level of confidence where they don't feel like they really need to add anything more aggressive to that behavior and can out quickly after they do that. The weaker dogs, ( or maybe the dogs not trained right), will get a bit TOO aggressive where they counter but when they out you see a bit too much of their teeth, if you know what I am saying. What I mean is, it is clear the threat bothered them and even though they fought back, they still look a bit rattled by what went on there.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

The dogs that grip harder (fight back/counter), almost have a calmness to them.. coming from confidence not lack of nerve nor do they become hectic or frantic after the out..

I understand what Anne is saying..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

just out of curiousity...how does one become a judge? is there a certain level of practical expertise they have to attain so they can properly judge the actions of the dog? It doesn't sound like it from what everyone is sayng.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Oh and what I meant about fighting with the body was in relation to the torque of the sleeve.There are dogs who thrash the sleeve , kind of like from the neck up,I consider that a more hectic response to a threat than a counter. I am talking about dogs who use their entire body to do that.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:There are dogs who thrash the sleeve


I've seen this behavior in "some" Mals and Pit Bulls.. It's like they want to rip the helps arm off..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Mals are...well.... a different breed. Some people call what they do prey aggression and although that term is a bit redundant, I can see why they use it. The problem with some Mals, is they fight everywhere, whether they are being threatened or not. That can have a way of escalating into other problems with those dogs. I have worked GSDs who do that also. Sometimes, it is genetics and sometimes it is because the training is so bad. There is never a place where the dog gets a chance to calm down and this will almost always lead to an out problem. 

I was working a Pit Bull for a while last year. Yes, they do that and it is because they are bred to fight. They do that behavior too much and if they are not worked right, will just whip themselves into a frenzy. I know there are Pits that do OK in SchH but they are not really bred for it.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

This discussion is very interesting and enlightening. I have not participated in schutzhund, but hope to in the future. Bear with me because I am trying to learn. I would imagine there has to be a middle ground, i.e. the dog does not bite frontal but does not take the sleeve all the way to the back of its mouth. A 3/4 grip for lack of a better term. Perhaps something like this is what the K9 officer in the thread a mentioned above was referring to. How would a confident dog with a powerful, calm, 3/4 grip that counters and fights the helper be scored? Should such a dog be scored significantly below a like dog with a full - jammed to the back of the mouth - grip and, if so, why? Thank you for tolerating my naive curiosity.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ike v Husekke(sp), owned by Carlos Rojas and arguably one of the best tracking dogs in past 20 years was good example. T-Floyd had this dog(for Carlos) for first two years in country and competed in Nationals with him at least twice. The dog was from KNPV background in Holland and I saw T and Chris Carr work on this dog's grips many days. The dog had a very hard bite,(caught him myself at the time), but he would start out with full mouth grip but once the stick hits started he would shift to 3/4 to 7/8 grips. This dog bit hard!! and was rock solid in nerve, but I always believed the imprinting he got overseas (KNPV training) was part of his shifting of grips. I personally know this dog to be ultra sound, but with scoring the way it is, he would always score high eighties/low nineties in C. I remember in 2001 Nationals in Taunton, Mass, and he was given an 88. The judge took points on all the grips, and I remember thinking I had just taken a bite off this dog and his bite was Hard!! Something is wrong here to punish him that much in score.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: jmdjack...explain why a full bite is desirable and necessary. I always hear so much emphasis placed on the importance of a "genetically full grip" in schutzhund. I have read discussions where a full grip is viewed as being indicative of good nerve and that if a dog does not have full grips it is lacking in confidence or nerve. Is this true in all circumstances?
> ...


In response to this, and also to check my own understanding with those with more experience... 

As you all know by now, I am pretty new to SchH, but I have been a dog owner and observer for 14 some years. From what I have observed of dogs, a confident dog will commit with biting with his whole mouth and will not let go unless he didn’t get a good bite the first time. A bite that is seated in the back of the mouth allows the dog to use his jaw muscles to grip. The dog then uses his body to create leverage and fight.

A dog who lacks confidence will strike then back off and strike again. He uses the front half of the mouth and may readjust the grip with tiny bites that look like chewing. His body language is tentative, side-stepping, head tilting, and backing up.

I can see how avoidance and fight behaviors can be confused if you don’t look carefully. IMO there are many trainers, behaviorists, and I am sure SchH judges too that rely solely on learned techniques and don’t really learn to read dogs.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't think they are supposed to be scored significantly lower. The ones who shift or loosen the grip, especially during the defense work are the ones who should lose bigger points. My main complaint is dogs who just hang there, ( with a full but not particularly strong bite ), and are given V scores 

Every dog I considered to be the most confident, all had very full bites and yes it was a hard bite. I think mostly, if we are considering what SchH is supposed to be doing as far as a test, a dog with a full , hard bite, is displaying a certain balance of drives and also strong nerves and that balance is what has made the GSD such a great working dog. Dogs with a less than full grip many times are showing aggression but maybe lack a bit in the confidence area. Training can certainly cause some problems in that regard but the great dogs somehow manage to overcome most of the mistakes made in training and always seem to bite full and hard. That has been my experience anyway.
The fuller the bite, the closer the dog is to the helper . Many times the less secure dogs will not want to re-bite fuller because again, that takes the dog closer to the bad guy. So, you can maybe consider that aspect as well. If we are talking about the dog fully committing to the bite, well, all the way into the helper is about as committed as you can get as long as the helper is presenting the correct picture and has the ability to test the dog. 
Lots of people think SchH doesn't show you much about a dog. Well, I will say that's a bunch of BS unless you don't know anything about dogs. The problem has been when people IGNORE what SchH is exposing and give undeserved points or titles etc. You do have to see it in person though because there is a great deal to see about the dogs that the scores will not tell you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Maybe the one taking the bite should be the judge.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Oh no...that would not be the answer AT ALL. lol


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: can see how avoidance and fight behaviors can be confused if you don’t look carefully.


First, I think I agree with just about all of your observations. As far as this comment, I think people have been told that certain avoidance behaviors are really fight. One of the most common is the dog who pulls strongly away and around to the back of the helper. That is avoidance, especially when you consider they are doing this when the stick is raised. People have to consider that dogs who avoid do so with a great deal of power and maybe that is what has created this confusion. (Try to put a cat in a bucket of water and see how much fight you get)
Ideally, you want a dog who stands his ground and stays in front of the helper in the face of pressure and threats. That , to me anyway, is an indication of courage and character vs moving to a place where the helper cannot continue to threaten the dog. I can't count the number of people who have misunderstood that behavior. They see the helper there struggling to bring the dog back to the front and they think wow , look at that fight. Well it is a fight but they are fighting hard to avoid the pressure not to overcome it.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: Every dog I considered to be the most confident, all had very full bites and yes it was a hard bite. I think mostly, if we are considering what SchH is supposed to be doing as far as a test, a dog with a full , hard bite, is displaying a certain balance of drives and also strong nerves and that balance is what has made the GSD such a great working dog. Dogs with a less than full grip many times are showing aggression but maybe lack a bit in the confidence area. Training can certainly cause some problems in that regard but the great dogs somehow manage to overcome most of the mistakes made in training and always seem to bite full and hard. That has been my experience anyway.
> The fuller the bite, the closer the dog is to the helper . Many times the less secure dogs will not want to re-bite fuller because again, that takes the dog closer to the bad guy. So, you can maybe consider that aspect as well. If we are talking about the dog fully committing to the bite, well, all the way into the helper is about as committed as you can get as long as the helper is presenting the correct picture and has the ability to test the dog.
> Lots of people think SchH doesn't show you much about a dog. Well, I will say that's a bunch of BS unless you don't know anything about dogs. The problem has been when people IGNORE what SchH is exposing and give undeserved points or titles etc. You do have to see it in person though because there is a great deal to see about the dogs that the scores will not tell you.


Thank you for that Anne!!

SchH can still teach us a lot about our dogs... It's just to many people want to ignore it.... and not see the forest before the trees..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

You're welcome.

It seems that every time I say something, I think of something else to add . What I just said about avoidance. Just about any dog can be ruined and that mostly happens when the dogs are young and worked WAY too hard by people who just don't seem to understand when to do what and how hard is too hard. I think I am lucky in that I had good teachers, people who really understood dogs and therefore, I speak from the side where I do not experience some of these things. Anyone wearing equipment can overpower a dog and bring out avoidance behaviors. The better dogs will show less effects from this but they do show them. A very big portion of the dogs is avoidance behavior. It is the helper and handler's job to avoid avoidance but unfortunately, a large number of trainers fail in this regard. They are simply too hard on the dogs too soon and even the best dogs need to be built back up after a big fight with the bad guy. They ALL need that. Even the best dogs need this just like the best prize fighters aren't sparring with people who beat the snot out of them all the time. I am sure you know what I am saying


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> 
> > Quote: can see how avoidance and fight behaviors can be confused if you don’t look carefully.
> ...


Anne,

This is exactly what I was talking about when I made this comment. I could see how someone could mistake this being a fighting behavior just for the reason that you said. 

My mix, Moose, does this backing up and around behavior when playing with Bison. He does these quick chewy "attacks" at the loose skin on Bison's face then backs up and swings his body behind Bison. People who have observed them think that Moose is really a fighter. No, he is scared. He has week nerves and he intimidated by Bison. IMO the backing up or repositioning of the body like that is to provide a quick escape. He knows (or fears) that eventually Bison will over power him and wants to be able to make a quick exit. When Bison makes any move to "fight back" he turns and runs away or backs up and does the play stance and growls, kind of like "Hey, remember we are just playing here."

I haven't attended that many SchH events, but I have observed the same types of subtile avoidance behaviors by some of the dogs on the field or in videos on the web.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:One of the most common is the dog who pulls strongly away and around to the back of the helper. That is avoidance, especially when you consider they are doing this when the stick is raised.


I don't know if I agree with this 100%.. I believe it to be true in some dogs, most definitely... 

But I also think it can be a learned behavior from the helper or one that is taught.. The dogs not avoiding the pressure, but has learned to win or get what it wants or get the upper hand so to say..


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthA full calm grip comes from the foundation of our breed. Shallow grips and thrashing would do a lot of damage to the sheep and are not always as effective in controlling the animal. The grip should be full, calm, and hard and used to dominate and over power the sheep (helper). A shallow grip that lacks calmness is as faulty as a dog that has a full calm grip, but lacks power and doesn't try to dominate its opponent. It is unfortunate that many of our judges are incapable of evaluating power and fight or a dog that is actually trying to dominate and control the helper.










? where did the sheep idea come from. haven't you watched dogs herd? they dont bite full on any animal, thay nip at heals and bite at noses.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

The GSD's that I've seen herd would grip on the sheeps sides or neck area?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

To bite with a full grip and have the courage to fight like heck if challenged is very desirable in a dog who is going to work a large flock of strong, heavy sheep. The dog is going to have to have solid nerves and not get all thrashy or some sheep are going to be damaged. To do this while in high drive and still be oh so responsive to the owner is necessary. You are going to need a fair degree of prey drive too in order to pursue your task all day.

When people poo-poo schutzhund and "schutzhund dogs" I sometimes get a bit flabbergasted. You can criticize the sportness of it all or the manner that is used to get "points" in competition, but I am always amazed at what a test it really is and how well it covers the skills from the German Shepherds' oldest job and the traits desirable in these dogs from the beginning.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:
> 
> ? where did the sheep idea come from. haven't you watched dogs herd? they dont bite full on any animal, thay nip at heals and bite at noses.


Apparently you have not watched dogs herd or else you are talking about Border Collies. There is a difference.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:But I also think it can be a learned behavior from the helper or one that is taught..


That's certainly possible and I have seen people apply pressure and then encourage or allow the dog to go way behind them. Just watched some guy do that the other day. I have to say though, I feel that the people who teach this have a basic lack of understanding as far as training protection goes....and of course that is simply my opinion on the matter. I have trained too many dogs without seeing any benefit in allowing that behavior and mostly found that it leads to other problems.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=PlayList&p=41085F017812418C&index=11

Not a single full grip....


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Not a single full grip....


...and no obedience either, so what's your point?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Is he a poor quality dog because he has no grip?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

He is a poorly trained dog. Doesn't mean he is poor quality, but he is for sure way overloaded.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

In addition...looks like he has bad aim. He is griping fuller when he re-bites.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Why does he not bite initially with a full grip?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

And this, to me, is why the quality of grips is so important. It demonstrates the dog's ability to switch from an intense, aggresive bundle of energy to a calm, focused, self-assured state back to this aggresive state (after the out). Also, I will add that I believe that a dog must be a little unsure to make good guarding. So it is a switch from being unsure and on edge in the guarding to completly sure and confident in the grip. 

In regards to this particular dog, it is my understanding that the dog is only worked in one state, aggression. Thus you do not see this switch from from edgeyness to being completly self-confident. He is always fighting the helper in the same manner, he always thinks the helper has the ability to hurt him. What I see in his grip is the dog fighting the helper as opposed to dominating him. On the grip the dog should know that he has control, the dog must know that whatever the helper does to oppose him is useless. To the dog the blind is a dangerous place, the guarding is dangerous but on the grip the dog has control, anything the helper does can be defeated by biting harder. There is no reason for the dog to "fight" the helper on the grip. Fight brings hecticness, because when you are fighting that means you do not have control. On the grip the dog already has control, thus it is a calm and deliberate action as oppossed to the raw and violent action of guarding.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Fight brings hecticness, because when you are fighting that means you do not have control. On the grip the dog already has control, thus it is a calm and deliberate action as oppossed to the raw and violent action of guarding.


No, not in the really good dogs it doesn't bring "hecticness". Fight is simply an escalation in power and is a response to a higher level of threat or stick hits. I suppose you could claim it is the dog feeling like he needs to re-establish control if you wanted to disect it to that degree. The dog in the video was fighting for no reason, just like what I said about Mals fighting everywhere. He is overloaded and when a dog is overloaded, there is always too much aggression going on. ...that's what overloaded is and that is why the grips are terrible. Too much defense work will do that to the grip as you already mentioned but while there are dogs who hang on without fighting who are good dogs, the ones who do fight do not all look like that dog on the video. I can assure you of that.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

[


Vandal said:


> > Quote: Fight is simply an escalation in power and is a response to a higher level of threat or stick hits.
> 
> 
> You know Anne, I am not sure that we disagree. I think that it is perhaps inherent in this form of communication that ideas are expressed a little at a time. Also, I do not think that most people (myself included) are able to express fully what they are attempting to communicate.
> ...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Fights are, by nature, hectic and frantic as each side attempts to establish control.


I know what you are saying but I don't really agree with this quote, especially if the dog has been trained or re-enforced when he counters. Police are trained how to escalate levels of force. It is kind of the same with what we teach the dogs where they respond to aggression from the helper with more of their own. Dogs trained correctly with the right genetics will escalate just enough to keep control of the fight. The dog in the video escalated out of control and is a better example of what you are saying. No one has taught that dog how to take control of the fight by countering, they just load him and set him free.... or so it seems. 
A dog trained to counter or hit back "knows" that he is in control of the fight and would therefore not become hectic. Hectic behavior is insecurity. Because of the confidence teaching this to the dog achieves, he will be more likely to out cleanly after the attacks and threats, ( all but one out comes after a drive and threat from the helper), since he feels in charge of the fight and therefore can "safely" let go when commanded. Just like a trained fighter, and also trained police, there is a method the dog has available to him to control his adversary and that makes it far less likely that he will feel insecure, out of control or hectic. That’s the point in teaching a dog to counter. 

BTW I know it is hard to write about this stuff because, like I said earlier, I post something and then I think of something else I want to add.


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## LuvWorkingGSDs (Aug 24, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Ike v Husekke(sp), owned by Carlos Rojas and arguably one of the best tracking dogs in past 20 years was good example. T-Floyd had this dog(for Carlos) for first two years in country and competed in Nationals with him at least twice. The dog was from KNPV background in Holland and I saw T and Chris Carr work on this dog's grips many days. The dog had a very hard bite,(caught him myself at the time), but he would start out with full mouth grip but once the stick hits started he would shift to 3/4 to 7/8 grips. This dog bit hard!! and was rock solid in nerve, but I always believed the imprinting he got overseas (KNPV training) was part of his shifting of grips. I personally know this dog to be ultra sound, but with scoring the way it is, he would always score high eighties/low nineties in C. I remember in 2001 Nationals in Taunton, Mass, and he was given an 88.
> 
> *The judge took points on all the grips, and I remember thinking I had just taken a bite off this dog and his bite was Hard!! Something is wrong here to punish him that much in score.*


This anecdote brings to mind another question. Should the helper have some 'input'? Is it really possibly for a judge watching a dog he/she has never seen to properly score a dog in one event? Is it possible to tell everything you need to know in order to evaluate the dog without feedback from the receiving end? Or is the visual feedback from the handler engaging the dog enough for the observer to properly understand?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Actually I have seen judges talk to the helper, but only to confirm what they already see. If one knows what they are looking at they do not need input from the helper. A judge has one moment in a dog's career, so to speak, to make an evaluation. They can not guess that the dog has bad training, that the dog is having a bad day, that the dog had exceptional training that helped cover up issues, etc. All the judge can do is evaluate the dog on that day during that moment in time.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Art, I understand what you're trying to say but I think the analogy is flawed. You stated:

"To me, when the dog is gripping, the outcome is already known. Yes the helper can fight but the dog has complete control and can respond without threat of harm. "

Without threat of harm? Stick hits are not only a threat but they are harm. On the reatack the dog has the bite but still gets hit. So in a dogs mind although he has the bite and a bit of control the helper is still able to harm him. 

As for fighting the helper. I don't like the weak dogs that try to go behind the helper to avoid the fight. Although I'll take the one that puts both paws on the helpers hip and tries to tear his arm off







Another type of dog I like to see and have only seen a few is the strong dog that the helper can't handle. The dog ends up behind his back and he can't pull him around and the dog has to be outted from there. Many poeple watching start talking how the dog is showing avaoidance... Then when the dog outs he quickly jumps back out in front of the helper with a strong B&H. The look on the helpers face and the speed at which the arm comes back in front for protection never fails to get a huge laugh.









I think many people (who don't truely know) hear the term "calm grip" and think any dog that torques the arm doesn't have a calm grip. This is not he case at all. With the advent of youtube those who didn't have first hand knowledge of some of the great dogs out there from the past can now see them. Look at how many of the "Pillars" of the breed out there gave that little extra torque.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

"Although I'll take the one that puts both paws on the helpers hip and tries to tear his arm off







"

Asko Lutter @ 4:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gBy8fKpGas 


"Look at how many of the "Pillars" of the breed out there gave that little extra torque." 

Troll http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogp_VUIdqWM&feature=related 


Fero http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qsauHAA5E&feature=related


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

From someone that knows absolutely nothing about Schutzhund....That first link you posted sure was fun to watch. the other two links looked slow and unsure of themselves compared to him.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Glad you liked him Jax. Your comment just goes to show that each person see something different. It also depends on the person's experience and ability to read a dog. By the way both Fero and Troll were both great dogs and highly sought after studs that have had a major impact on the breed. Odds are 1 or both of these dogs are in your dogs pedigree. By the way that's a good thing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

my puppy is a pound dog! who knows what's in her?!? Supposedly border collie! LOL and I think she's weak nerved so I doubt I'll ever be able to do something like this with her. But someday, when my kids are grown and I have more time...

It is great to read everyone's threads on here and be able to learn now though!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

btw....Fero and Troll seemed to have similar styles, maybe a less direct frontal??. Whereas Asko Lutter seemed to have a more assertive? aggressive? style. Which is preferred in the breed?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

One big reason you see such similar styles between Fero and Troll is that Troll is a son of Fero. Though IMO with much better nerve, and far better bites (at least in the videos I've seen, those included).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I"ll look up more videos this weekend to look at them. It was so much fun just watching those! All I could think was "those helpers must have nerves of steel to have those dogs bearing down on them like that!"


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: Another type of dog I like to see and have only seen a few is the strong dog that the helper can't handle. The dog ends up behind his back and he can't pull him around and the dog has to be outted from there. Many poeple watching start talking how the dog is showing avaoidance... Then when the dog outs he quickly jumps back out in front of the helper with a strong B&H.


I know exactly what your talking about.. Was even watching some videos of the stronger well known dogs that did the exact same thing... Which I why I don't always see that behavior as avoidance..


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It can be hard comparing the dogs in some of the videos since the trial work has changed a bit over the years. The courage test/long bite has changed and they went to a soft padded stick instead of the reed stick.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Was even watching some videos of the stronger well known dogs that did the exact same thing... Which I why I don't always see that behavior as avoidance..


Leesa, can you maybe post a link to the dogs you are referring to?
I am specifically talking about dogs doing this when they are threatened.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

If I can find them, yes... We've had this discussion before on here, about dogs pulling behind the helpers, which in turn made me start looking more closely at the videos on the Banholz site...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I hesitate to put someone's dog up here to demonstrate what I am talking about but since the dog was clubbed over the head in a seminar.....he has an excuse for this behavior. Actually, they ALL have an excuse because mostly this comes from people who work the dogs too hard before they have been taught how to hit back or fight.
Like I said earlier in this thread,certain behaviors look the same and it comes down to what you are seeing and feeling as the helper. Even in this video you can't see or feel what I am here as the helper. You can see when I raise the stick how fast the dog swings out of the front. Then, I give him a couple of seconds to collect himself and just looking at him makes him move away again. This dog is consistently worked TOO HARD. THAT is why he does this. He is actually not a bad dog, just has had terrible work.

http://www.adlerstein.com/DDA.wmv


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Zahnburghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=PlayList&p=41085F017812418C&index=11
> 
> Not a single full grip....


This was a crazy dog to watch in person.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Zahnburghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=PlayList&p=41085F017812418C&index=11
> 
> Not a single full grip....


This was a crazy dog to watch in person.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

People talk about training and sport being used to cover up things in the dogs. Some have expressed concern before that somehow weak dogs get by in titling because of this or that. I am sure this occurs.

As in the example above, I seem to more often than not run into training that fails to reveal strength in the dog. Too often dogs worked high, hot and a heck of lot, dogs over pressured before learning to use their power or trained while not in good drive. I think I too often got to fail a dog's genetics rather than the converse. Bummer!!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I was just outside working and I was actually thinking the exact same thing Carla. I think too many dogs are just worked over and over the same way in training, being driven and hit, driven and hit and any dog in his right mind will start to get out of the way of that.
Only before a trial do I allow the helper to hit my dog and I do not very often let them drive the dogs unless I am teaching the helper or I want to see something. It makes no sense..... to me anyway.

This fits into the thread about owners affecting genetics and that story I told there about the SchH dog. SAD what they did to that dog and what a waste of what could have been a really good dog. Still is but no one will ever see it.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

This is for Leesa so she can stop sifting thru the Banholz site.








http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2TdQ6wmbHE


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

What were we looking at again? the hot handler in his shorts!!










This is one of their newer vids! but yes this is what I'm talking about.. I don't see that being avoidance.. I see a strong dog trying to man handle the helper..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Well, I like that dog and I don't view it like what I am talking about either. He fights when he gets hit, he isn't trying to pull out of the front immediately like the dog I showed in the other video and he is comfortable looking the helper right in the eyes.... (easier to see that on the WUSV video). 
Obviously, that is a very powerful and serious dog. I am talking about dogs who immediately start moving away when the stick comes up. Most of these other dogs, ( like Gator), do it after the helper stops and then they go right back to the front of the helper...like what was already mentioned.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It doesn't look like a direct response to threat or escalation. In this dog, it looks more like a behavioral tactic. It was not so pronounced or predictable either. A different picture.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

So in the video of you working the dog.. Did the dogs grip shift at all? 

I want you to know I will now be watching dogs more closely in the work to see if I see this behavior of avoidance or true fight..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

No his grips did not shift, his entire body shifted and you can see it in the dog's eyes. 
You just want me to know? lol.....Does this mean you will be getting back to me with your findings? You may have to go down there to Mexico with the "hot handler" to conduct your study. Just research of course.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I was just curious, because it didn't look like it.. And his issue doesn't look to be to bad.. He's not fighting the hel! out of you to get out of the way or behind you..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Like I said before, there is an element of fight in it but why they are fighting is the question. I am talking about the dog I was working in the video right now. I have to tell you , there is no way that is "true fight". It is flight. It's a good enough dog that he still wants to be there biting but all the pressure that dog has endured, not to mention a stick hit over the head that was so hard the dog rolled up in a ball, all have contributed to why he tries to get out of there. Again, all dogs have a huge amount of avoidance behavior. It doesn't have to mean it is a bad dog or a weak dog. It means the dog is worked too much in defense with too much pressure. They all have to have some relief from that and that is why the helper also uses prey drive. Very few dogs will handle constant pressure without showing some form of avoidance. If you worked dogs as the helper, I am pretty sure you would understand it because you can see it in the dog's eyes and feel it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I hear Mexico is lovely this time of year!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:And his issue doesn't look to be to bad.. He's not fighting the hel! out of you to get out of the way or behind you..


You have to consider that I am putting hardly any pressure on the dog and he moves out of there like that. I just barely face him and show the stick very quickly.
I had worked this dog the night before, so, I knew he was going to have a reaction. If I had turned and really pressured him hard, you would have really seen it.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

First I'm a complete NOVICE to Schutzhund, so plz don't jump me if I'm blind... but Gator definitely impressed me! Not only clean 100% of the time, but calm and totally under control between bites. Attentive to his handler, yet alert to the helper and focused... I've seen so many video's of dogs who almost drag their handlers to the start point, and seem frazzled waiting for the helper to move so they can come back on a bite... Gator seems to be a dog that I could actually live with, ride to the store in my car, and go hiking with, not just a dog who does a sport. I do understand that it's like any other animal. A horse who is a wiz at Gran Prix probably isn't a horse you'll take out trail riding to look @ the scenery... personally I don't want a dog who's ONLY a sport dog, and wish I saw more dogs like Gator. 

*Shrug*
Don't know the dog, so there's no bias in that way, but am I missing something... LOL


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

No, I would say you are quite accurate. I've seen a few pics with him sitting with small kids and I work a dog in my club out of similar bloodlines. Nice dog, like an old style GSD. Wonderful temperament.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:You have to consider that I am putting hardly any pressure on the dog and he moves out of there like that. I just barely face him and show the stick very quickly.


Yes, I did notice that...


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I just want to say this is a wonderfully informative thread. Thanks for starting it, Anne!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

http://www.adlerstein.com/DDA1.wmv

This is the night before, you can see it clearly here.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Mattox,

You state:

"Without threat of harm? Stick hits are not only a threat but they are harm. On the reatack the dog has the bite but still gets hit. So in a dogs mind although he has the bite and a bit of control the helper is still able to harm him."

No. Stick hits are not harm they may be opposition but they are not harm. The dog should know the helper is not very dangerous when gripping, the dog already controls him. The helper is very dangerous in the guarding but not on the grip. What the helper can do in the blind will never happen on the grip. The stick hits amount to encouragement, the stick hit simply means bite harder. In fact I look at the stick in general as encouragement. The helper waves the stick on the courage test and people think this means threat. No. To the dog it SHOULD be encouragement. Stick=come faster.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

First, thanks for posting the great examples. I could clearly see the difference between the dog in Anne's video and Gator in the move behind the back thing. With Gator it was a power thing and with the dog in the other videos, he is clearly avoiding. Great examples.

I don't want to stray off topic, but there was some discussion of observing dogs and this somewhat silly question falls along those lines. 

One thing I noticed in the videos posted as good examples was that in the long bite all the dogs have a clear transition in body language. As they run, their ears are back and they are crouched, just before reaching the helper their ears pop forward, they slow down, and their look gets more intense. Is this just a normal body posture of stopping a run or is it a drive transition. If a drive transition, from what to what?


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Wow, in that video of Fero the grips are really bad, judging by today's standards at least. I'm not great at reading dogs in protection, and that's a short clip, but I wouldn't say he seems insecure or weak, especially based on his popularity. 

So perhaps is it bad training? Or just not a good genetic grip? Does a shallow grip and thrashing not always lend itself to insecurity or weakness?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Anne~

Yes it is more noticeable in the second video.. That's why I made my comment about his issue not being as bad.. because he wasn't fighting you as much in the first video as he is in the second..


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

So do you think this dog can over come this issue (since it's do to his training and not the dog himself) if he's worked correctly and taught the right way to fight?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

As for Fero, I have watched those videos as well. I can tell you that I have seen good dogs screwed up like that and Art posted a video of a dog similar to Fero that is doing the same thing. Both dogs , to me anyway, show a certain type of temperament. I personally do not care for the behaviors shown in both videos but I know how you get a dog to look like that. I have unfortuantely seen lots of people make dogs a little crazy like that. Years ago, the helper I worked with did a bit of that same thing to my second SchH dog. Maybe it is a bit too much prey work in an otherwise serious dog. My dog would just attack that sleeve, it was more about the sleeve than the man but off the field, that dog was very serious about protecting me. Some Malinois do that where it is all about the sleeve and they are there killing it. 
I think you can look at Fero and see a more excitable/ low threshold dog based on that video. I have NO idea what he was really like but that's my impression of him . His son Troll is a much better dog just going off the videos but you can also see a tad of that in him as well.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Zahnburg

You state:

" No. Stick hits are not harm they may be opposition but they are not harm. The dog should know the helper is not very dangerous when gripping, the dog already controls him. The helper is very dangerous in the guarding but not on the grip. What the helper can do in the blind will never happen on the grip. The stick hits amount to encouragement, the stick hit simply means bite harder. In fact I look at the stick in general as encouragement. The helper waves the stick on the courage test and people think this means threat. No. To the dog it SHOULD be encouragement. Stick=come faster."

I couldn't disagree with you more. The dog should view the stick hit as harm. Do you think the reed stick was "happy go lucky encouragement"? NO. Just because FCI buckeled under preasure to go to a padded stick doesn't change what the stick hits were meant to be. A good helper can still bring the heat with a padded stick but it takes more efforts to get about 3/4 the effect. When hit with the stick, yes the dog should bite harder and I expect that his drive will go up. 

If done the way you describe you're going to have more of that "just go along for the ride" attitude in the dog. If the dog doesn't think that the helpers still a threat then why expend any extra energy in the reattack after getting the bite?


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

As for Fero and Troll. We have to remember that this was a time when the dogs were judged differently. Back when the less precise dog that was more real and powerful would score (V score) much higher than the dog that was precise but had no power and less heart.(could never score V)


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:So do you think this dog can over come this issue (since it's do to his training and not the dog himself) if he's worked correctly and taught the right way to fight?


Well....it depends on a number of factors. The dog in that video started to hit back and I re-enforced it and it started to change things quite a bit as far as his confidence.... within a few sessions. It was somewhat dramatic actually. However, the dog has been put in some bad situations and I think it will always have an impact on him to some degree. Not to mention, he doesn't live close by, so, he is back working with a helper that is just too hard on the dog and I heard the handler is back to being hard on the dog as well. I had a little work there getting him to stop yelling commands at the dog and I have to say, THAT is very disturbing to the dogs. People need to learn to just say the commands vs bellowing them. It matters.
The handler is just not very experienced and never praised the dog. Once I got him to not yell and to praise , the dog's confidence doubled. It was amazing how much more power the dog brought once he was encouraged by his handler...people seem to forget that part in protection.
Also he needs the right helper, I think things could improve but it has to be someone who works the dog where he is pressured but always comes out on top. The pressure, has to fit the dog as well where it is not bringing that behavior out in the dog but is enough to get the dog to fight. The video during the day there was the last time I tried that with the dog because it only brought the one response...avoidance. With this dog, I got the hit back by raising the stick as I gave the bite from the guard and by having the handler praise during the guard. As I gave the bite, the dog hit back and I re-enforced it. I could not have gotten it by showing him the stick, when he was already on the sleeve, ( like in the videos), because that makes the dog move out of the front. That was all he would do. I did not want to encourage that behavior with my work, so, I found a different way to get the counter. If you keep getting the dog to avoid, that is what they will do. You want that behavior to diminish while you build up another one at the same time. Know what I am saying? 

Back to the handler...., I would say he is almost as disturbing to that dog as the stick is. When I first worked the dog, he would swing way off to the other side as the handler approached, just like he does with the stick. So, if I were going to try to help that dog, he would have to improve ten fold and be able to support his dog. The handler can help things quite a bit by simply letting the dog know that he wants him to do protection. Sounds funny to some people but when I watch protection training I see very little support from the handlers and praise that doesn't really look or sound like praise. That chips away at the dog's confidence and then you see avoidance behaviors start to creep in. They have to feel like you are there with them in one way or another...if you know what I mean. Hard to explain it but I see it ALL the time where the handlers are draining the dog's confidence.

So, to sum it up...it depends on a number of things how much you can change this problem but if it was the first behavior taught, you will always be there adjusting it to some degree.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Zahnburg you state:

"In fact I look at the stick in general as encouragement. The helper waves the stick on the courage test and people think this means threat. No. To the dog it SHOULD be encouragement. Stick=come faster."

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

The helper waves the stick and YES this should be a threat. That's why the long bite is called the "COURAGE TEST" not the ENCOURAGEMENT TEST. This is another area that I whish they would go back to the old ways. Back when the helper would start out running away from the dog and then turn and run at the dog. That's when you'd see the dogs drives change from prey to fight. Or lack thereof. 

Ever see a dog during todays long bite stop and not engage? Was that because the helper wasn't ENCOURAGING enough? NO. The dog didn't have the nerves to take the threat and fight through it. It's not bad training it's a dog that should not be bred.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:So, to sum it up...it depends on a number of things how much you can change this problem but if it was the first behavior taught, you will always be there adjusting it to some degree.


I know that all to well, unfortunately.. The first lessons learned are the hardest sometimes.. And when your new to the sport you put trust in people you work with..

Anyway, thanks Anne for sharing your thoughts!!


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Many strong dogs will fight behind the back. This is because, as mentioned, the way the helper trains. Many helpers out there will work a dog and then before they slip the sleeve they will let the dog tug on the arm letting it go limp. Providing no resistance will make the arm go down to their side and eventually to the back. There the dog has power and feels very little preasure. Then the arm is slipped and the dog just won. So you can't fault the dog for this. He has now just found the best way for him to fight. He's defeated the helper and recieves very little harm and preasure there. Can't blame the dog at all.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: The first lessons learned are the hardest sometimes.. And when your new to the sport you put trust in people you work with..


I'm not trying to discourage anyone from continuing to work with their dog. So, I will just say this....years ago a freind of mine had similar bad work done with her dog before she knew better. The dog was "stick cleaned", worked WAY too much in defense and injured badly in a trial. We taught the dog to counter and of course adjusted other things and the dog went on to compete at the WUSV three times. You can make adjustments but you do have to be very careful about who works your dog and what you will allow. You also have to understand protection work as well, if not better than your helper. This is where women in particular, really need to step up and start learning.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:I'm not trying to discourage anyone from continuing to work with their dog


And I totally didn't take it that way!









Now back to the topic of full grips!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxZahnburg you state:
> 
> "In fact I look at the stick in general as encouragement. The helper waves the stick on the courage test and people think this means threat. No. To the dog it SHOULD be encouragement. Stick=come faster."
> 
> ...


 I understand what you are saying. But the fact of the matter is that yes the stick is encouraging WHEN IT IS TAUGHT THIS WAY AS A YOUNG DOG. When a dog is young and he sees stick/miss, stick/miss, stick/grip the dog learns the stick means grip. Yes, I have seen dogs slow or fail to engage on the courage test and yes to these dogs the threat was overwhelming. I also see dogs that when the stick comes up they go faster. These dogs know stick means grip. 
Do not misunderstand me and think that I am implying that the helper is encouraging the dog. I am not saying this at all. BUT, when the stick comes up it SHOULD mean to the dog to come faster and harder.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: R. Mattox
> If done the way you describe you're going to have more of that "just go along for the ride" attitude in the dog. If the dog doesn't think that the helpers still a threat then why expend any extra energy in the reattack after getting the bite?


 While I understand your line of thinking, this is simply not what happens. Just because the dog knows that he has complete control it does not mean that the dog will allow the helper to try to "punk" him. The helper resists energetically and the dog shows him that it is useless.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

I guess it's just different wording. I don't look at it as, nor teach it as encouragement. When the dog is trained it is taught that the only way to win when the helper brings the pressure is to fight harder. Doing anything other than fighting harder makes the helper give more pressure. So they learn the only thing to do is come forward, bite hard and fight. If that is what you mean by encouragement then yes I agree. 

Rick


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

As both a green helper and handler, I just want to thank everyone for participating in this thread. It has spoken volumes to me. 

Before I bust out in song ala <span style="color: #009900">Kermit</span>, let me just say again, it's nice to be here...


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Zahnburghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=PlayList&p=41085F017812418C&index=11
> ...


i thought this dog was fun to watch in the video, tell me that his guard and long bite wasnt entertaining. ragardless of his lack of OB and bad grips, nothing tells me this dog isnt the real deal. overloaded? i'd call him a crackhead...or a prey monster...


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Zahnburghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95GNM7GGKVQ&feature=PlayList&p=41085F017812418C&index=11
> ...


whats the history behind the dog?


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