# Wits end with JRT (NON-GSD)



## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I just need to vent. 

Because I know the answers really...you may have helpful advice that would be wonderful. 
I have posted about him before. 

Last October. We pulled a JRT out of a kill shelter. He had no time left. My DH has a soft spot for them. 

He is our 4th dog. He is not like our first JRT. I am training and training. 

He has dug out of our fence 7 times. He goes to near by highway. 

I am working on dog whistle recall. 

He chews trash and my kids toys. He goes cujo when getting them away, (i use treats and I am working on leave it and drop it) he gives things up for my DH. I worry he will bite my kids, he has bitten me many times, not breaking the skin, but it hurts. 

He is marking in my house. EW! 

He does other stuff, getting on the table, etc. But those above are the top 3 things. 

ALL of are shelters are full in my area. I have called for help, to keep fostering and training. While they help me find him a home. 

My DH is close to PTS, because of his aggression, and running into traffic. 

I know we did this to ourselves, we rescued one to many. I have 3 super good dogs, and BRUNO our JRT. 
I trained the other 3. He is my biggest challange. 

Sometimes I think if he were gone I would be bored..I would like to find out. I do love him, he is just ruining our lives.


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

Is he neutered? This could make a difference in the marking.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Yes, he is neutered. I got him from an AC, he had to be. I would have anyway. He is 2 yrs old they think. Was found running loose. I think he is a runner. 

I took him back for a recheck, because there was still a stitch sticking out. They cut it back said it would go away. He sniffs at the area often, does not lick it a lot or anything. 

I told the vet at the clinic, he is aggressive and marks. Is it because of the neuter? They said no. 

I almost had a new home for him. The family had 40 acres, they have not called me back. They are a friend of a friend. I just told the guy, if you do not have a fence I do not know if he will come back???? Also I told him of the marking and the possession issues, he has 2 small kids!









What kind of home does he need. OH, and also...he is aggressive to cats!!

It is all so overwhelming...should I put him down? NO, I KNOW, I should not. I am a rescue volunteer!!









Now I am part of the problem, not the solution.


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## oregongsdr111 (Nov 20, 2005)

Is this a private party rescue?
If not have you looked into JRT Rescues, even ones out of your area?

We had a particular one at our Shelter, and he was one of the few dogs of my life at the shelter that I really disliked. I found a person that works agility with a club, and she took him (foster for a day)to a meet. 

A 13 year old boy adopted him. I was invited to a meet to see how the agility works, and there was Dexter. He was fab. He did everything that kid asked himto do. As I was watching I was having flashbacks to how many hours I spent chasing that little sucker around the shelter. Every meal, potty walk, or cutomer visit he leaped out and it took many of us to catch him. It was like a three stoges skit several times a day. His tranformation from his shelter days, to the agility ring was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. 

He may just need that one on one time to get it. 
Wishing you, and him the best.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

If there's not a way to take him out to potty on a flexi or only when supervised, I'd put up a hot wire along the bottom of your fence. I know you've got kids, so a hot wire may not be doable, and if that's the case I'd buy one of the mid priced Invisible Fence units and just string the wire along the bottom of your fence. You can bury it if you want, but you can also just run it along the bottom and periodically attach it with U brads. Turn the intensity to where the dog has to be pretty close to the fence for it to activate and make sure he wears the collar when he's loose in the yard. He'll get zapped when he tries to fool with the fence. This is the fastest and best way I know to keep him from getting out, because it sounds like that's a life and death situation.

What training techniques are you using with the resource guarding? Do you have Jean Donaldson's book "MINE!"? If not, that's where I'd start. 

Re marking - will he wear a belly band? That's not a training tool, but it'll at least stop stuff from getting messed up while you're working with him.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Yes, this is a private rescue. AND all JRT rescue are full. I have contacted them. I am going to again, to see if they can at least list him, the closest is in Omaha. 

The one that used to be in KC, shut down, the guy had a spinal injury, and the one in St. Louis never got back to me. 

If anyone know of any other let me know. 

I was smiling at your story of Dexter Paula, because I SO understand. 

I have looked into Earth dog, they have one this month at Purina Farms i think it is near St. Louis. 

He is very high drive, this is what he needs. 

I just wish I found my 13 yr old boy who would do this for Bruno. 

If not, maybe I can, it is just very unrealistic for my family and my other dogs. 

I know, I know, I should have thought of that, before I pulled him.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

We have thought of the hot wire....My DH just said that yesterday. 

I do worry about my kids. 

AND the E-fence I am always running my mouth about how it is unhumane because I do not trust people to use it right (and know people that are not), BUT....this is life and death, he is going to get hit!! You should see my yard, it has garden stones practically around the whole bottom!! He has even dug into the neighbors yard. AND I do not want to PO them, that would blow it for all my dogs, I have 2 to many pets!! (they are licensed though, the 3 I can have, he is licensed). 

We may have to get and E. Not a hot wire. My other 3 are timid rescues, well they have come far. Shadow would lay on his side and pee, if something in his yard shocked him!! 

It would set them all back. 

On the resource guarding (he does not do this with his food), I get a treat, and do like a trade, say drop it. He does. BUT I have to have that treat every time. 

The marking....I do not know when he is doing it. I have my eye on him ALL the time. I think it is when He is barking at squirrels at the window. 

We are going to have to rip our carpet up!! 

I cannot see him wearing a belly band. For now, he is being kenneled alot, which I hate...but...I just do not know what else to do. 

We walk him and I took him to the park. He needs more than that though.


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## eggo520 (Oct 28, 2007)

I am so sorry to hear about your situation







I know what it is like to try and find a (virtually) untrained dog a new home, especially in this economy. Your JRT sounds like a dog who is strongly in need of direction and focus, like the kind that comes with advanced obedience training, agility, flyball or some other dog sport. Have you tried NILIF with him? One of my dogs was on that for awhile and really helped him listen to me and pay attention. I wish I had more advice for you. Just hang in there, take it day to day and try not to get discouraged! Your training and rehoming attempts are much more than a normal family would probably have done. Most people would likely just dump him at a shelter. Keep us updated!


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Thank you Emily that helps so much. 

That is what my DH keeps wanting to do. What not that is what everyone does...problem solved. 

I am fighting that with all I have....because I rescue, I volunteer for rescues and no kill shelters. My other 3 are rescues. 

It is against who I am. He is not disposable. I could not live with myself. 

I am trying NILF. He does such a pretty sit for his dinner, to go outside. He does have wonderful qualities. My 5 yr old can carry him around like a sack of potatoes. 

What if I posted him in agility or what do we have, dont we have a working dog part of this forum??? Shame, I never go there...

Would they laugh me outta there? Like Paula said he needs an agility person. He needs work!


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Maybe try contacting local trainers to see if they would be interested in him? I know a lot of rescues will put up courtesy postings on their website if they are full, and maybe you can tag along to adoption events? Just some ideas!


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

I agree that he needs a job - agility, flyball, something like that.

Have you tried putting posters at your local agility club?


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

My first question is do we have a local agility club??? 

I will look. 

I posted him here in sports. 

Fingers crossed.


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## Puddincat (Dec 14, 2008)

Contact the Dog Whisperer!! He sounds like he would be a good project for him!!!

I understand what you are going through. I too have been in bad situations with rescues that can be little terrors. The thing I always kept in mind was that it was not the dog's fault. He needs a trainer. Badly. I would call around and see what you can come up with. Maybe go on Petfinder.com and try to find help. If you can find some people that want to help in your area, you may be able to help this little guy.
I wish I lived near you- I would help with training and walking to get that excess energy out. It's too stressful in a family situation.
Good luck, and thank you for pulling him from the shelter.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MTAussieMaybe try contacting local trainers to see if they would be interested in him? I know a lot of rescues will put up courtesy postings on their website if they are full, and maybe you can tag along to adoption events? Just some ideas!


Thank you for this advice. 

Also Puddincat. 

I am in contact with a trainer I know through MOGS that works at Pete and Macs. 

I just agree with dd and others he needs a sport. Walking is not good enough, he is too intense. 

YES he would be a wonderful Dog Whisperer episode!!! I bet he would give him a run for his money!! He would be one he would have to take back to his kennel or whatever he calls it.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm sorry the little guy is such a PIA. I do understand how you feel. 

The simple solution to him escaping the yard would be to get a tie out and a stake and put him on that when he goes out. I had to do that when Chama was a pup and kept jumping the (short) fence at the place I rented. 

It would be worth trying the belly band to save your carpets and keep him crated less. You can use white vinegar and water in spray bottle to spray the spots. That will neutralize the smell and clean your carpet. 

Have you tried clicker training? JRTs are so smart that I imagine that might be just the thing to do--teach him something new every day! Here are some great ideas and tips: http://www.clickertraining.com/library


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Thanks for the link Ruth. I will read up. I have seen with clicker training where you can teach dogs to turn on and off lights! 

I E-mailed a Springfield MO Agility person to see if they know of anyone that can help. 

I acually called our MO AC, they are working with adoption coordinators now, it is not the AC I pulled him from that was Olathe KS. They are trying to PTS less, the MO one. 

I hung up.


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

My friend has hunting dogs that had a knack of digging/escaping the fence area.

I told him to dig a foot or two away from the fence, and put an electric fence in). He did this, it solved this issue.

Just a thought, I don't like them, however it worked for him.

Good luck


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Daisy, there's these folks: http://www.pacificnwjackrussellrescue.com/

I don't know if they have a place for him. They say they're desperate for fosters, but if they do have room at the inn, let me know. 

My trainer specifically has a class series for terriers. That's how challenging terriers can be! It's not just Bruno, and it's not just you.







(My trainer is fostering a JRT now and keeps asking me if I want a terrier to go with my hound, herder, spaniel mix pack







Uh, no. I like my marriage too much.







). 

If he lands out my way, I'm sure JRT rescue knows of her and others like her. He probably could be rehabilitated in the hands of a trainer that understands the terrier mind. I don't really. I had a terrier mix once. She was a great dog. But she definitely had her own way of doing things.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Jasper007My friend has hunting dogs that had a knack of digging/escaping the fence area.
> 
> I told him to dig a foot or two away from the fence, and put an electric fence in). He did this, it solved this issue.
> 
> ...


That is what my DH wants to do. E-fence is about $1700 to install. The previous owners of our house had the same issues. We have stuff here to put up a hot wire, for less. 

I am just worried about my other 3 and my kids. 

I have seen dogs that have been through this. They just look so scared of their own yards. BUT if it keeps him alive....

3K9Mom, I E-mailed that rescue, thank you.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

http://www.gamedayphotosbyvinnie.com/Dog%20Shows/635474

He needs stuff like this.


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## eggo520 (Oct 28, 2007)

Something else I just thought of, and I don't know if anyone else here has had success with it, goes back to the digging. My DH once had a dog that loved to dig out of her outdoor pen. He ended up securing wooden boards (about 1-inch thick, 12 inches wide, 5 feet long) flat on the ground around the inside of the fence (lined the perimeter with them).

This meant that the dog had to start digging 1 foot farther back from the bottom of the fence, which meant a LOT more effort than she really wanted to put out. She stopped digging once she got underneath the board and met with more dirt. And we didn't have to put up a hot wire, e-fence or anything like that. Maybe something worth trying?


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

That does sound worth a try Emily.









On the sport link I posted above, I E-mailed them too, but I think he would have to have papers. 

JRTCA registered.


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

I think you can get the electric fence, supplies, ditch digger and everything at Lowes, and do it alot cheaper?

The collar would go on the pup, and you and the kids would be safe.

Good luck with whatever you decide, you are trying, and thats what counts


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

That's what I was suggesting in my post too. If you have a physical fence, you don't need to spend all the money to have an Invisible Fence professionally installed. You just need to buy the unit, one collar, and a roll of wire. You can run the wire along the bottom of your existing fence - it doesn't even need to be buried as long as it isn't going to cause problems when you mow the yard. It's not free, but it's not that much and can easily be done in an afternoon and will not shock your other dogs or kids.

I'm all for the non-shocky alternatives, but this is a good fix if the choice is between this and him winding up hit by a car.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

OHHH! OK, 

I just got it. Tell me like I am 3. When you and Jack were saying wire, I kept thinking hot wire....

You mean there is a cheaper alternative, since we have a fence...I get it.

AND they sell it at Lowe's??? 

The dry cleaners JUST called me....$102 to clean my drapes that he peed on!!







I might as well go buy new ones! New spring color, why not!!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I'm sorry. I'm going to be really abrupt here. And I may infuriate some of you. 

There are a lot of *very kind-hearted and creative *suggestions about how to resolve digging issues. 

But Kelly wrote this: 



> Quote:
> 
> worry he will bite my kids, he has bitten me many times, not breaking the skin, but it hurts.
> 
> he is just ruining our lives.


This is not a good situation. Kelly has kids. She has other dogs. She is in way over her head. Digging is, honestly, the second (or third) of her worries. Yes, digging out of the yard needs to be resolved, but there is a big picture we need to look at. 

Bruno will, imo, never be happy where he is. And I don't see how Kelly and her family will ever fully trust him. So how will they ever be happy together? 

Is there any way that we can help her remove Bruno and find him a home where he can get what he needs? I realize that many reading this may not realize that there was another thread about trying to modify his behavior up in the "dog" threads some while ago. It sounds like his behavior has gotten even worse. 

I know that at this forum we see -- too often for my taste -- owners who don't want to put any time into their dogs. They come up with a lame excuse for wanting to rehome a dog. In that sort of situation, the problem often seems so simple to fix. Seven, ten, or twenty members all offer rather easy solutions, but the owner doesn't want to hear it. They just want help getting rid of their dog. 

I don't know Kelly personally, but this really doesn't seem to be that sort of situation. She's open to all suggestions. But we need to listen to what she's saying too. 

IMO, Bruno needs to find a new home, and quickly. He's learning that lashing out in frustration is acceptable. At some point, he's not going to be adoptable. 

Is there anything we can do to help? As a group, we've worked miracles for GSDs. Can we do that for this little JRT?


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

OK. Before I came back here ONE more time today, I had a MAJOR crying session. I am still pretty much in tears. 

I called where we pulled him...the AC, they said we do not take dogs back....not sure if I really would have done it anyway. She said he needs someone to devote time to him....IT JUST HURT. 6 MONTHS...I have given. 

Our first girl JRT, we got her when she was a pup. She was different. Bruno is to far gone for me (it hurts to say that). He is 2 yrs old set in his ways. 

The last phone call from the cleaners about the curtains, really pushed me over the edge. I called my vet too, the same vet that had to put our girl JRT down for us...because she fought a neological illness for 4 yrs. That is why we pulled this guy with 3 other dogs already, we never got over her. Adopting Shadow helped me a lot, but my DH needed another wiggle butt around. He is that for us. He can be a joy. 

BUT it is taking to much away from my kids and my other dogs. 

The vet said they are sending a list of trainers, and they will do whatever else we need. Because the Olathe AC and my vet said he cannot go to just any home with the aggression issues. 

Then ANYWAY I come back here and see this heart felt post...from 3K9Mom. I do not know how you guys do it...sometimes it is like you read minds. 

I needed to read that someone understood me. The lady on the phone at the AC really at first acting like I was giving up on this guy, like everyone else has. I am trying SO hard not to. 

Thank you for understanding me. To just give up on him and turn him in some where goes against everything I am. 

I feel like I would need to leave rescue if I did something like that...I could not live with myself.









BUT, I posted to find him a home in the sports section...a Mod had to take it down. He is Non GSD. It is against the rules. I understand that.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom....IMO, Bruno needs to find a new home, and quickly. He's learning that lashing out in frustration is acceptable. At some point, he's not going to be adoptable.


I agree.

Is there an online board for JRTs that is equivalent to what we have here?


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

my daughter has a JRT that is in some ways similar.Sad but true this dog NEEDS a person who is totally focused on this dog and wil TAKE control.JRT's sometimes are not family dogs but will follow ONE strong leader.This leader needs to make sure the feisty JRT does not terrorize others.Seems like a dog that needs a single owner/family-may NOT be possible.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

This leader is my DH, no matter what I do. BUT he works 60 hrs a week, and is out of the house a lot.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Lori, I get where you're coming from







but Kelly has been trying to place him to no avail and sadly there aren't a lot of people looking for a dog like this. Yes, a miracle may happen, but in the mean time I think it's important to find stopgap measures that will keep him from being dead. JRTs are the #1 small dog I see PTS. The supply far exceeds the demand.







And while I hear Kelly's frustration and hurt in her posts, I'm not sure that this situation is hopeless - only that what is going on now is hopeless. 

Kelly - _specifically_ what training techniques have you used with this guy? What books do you have? 

I think trying to find a JRT group that will take him is a great idea, but in the interim, let's see if we can help make the situation any better.


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## kshort (Jun 4, 2004)

Kelly,
This is kind of way out there, but it worked for our dog. Had one that wanted to dig out constantly. My husband finally cut a hole in the fence about 4" tall and 12" long - just enough for him to see out - and at about the height of his eyes, so he could stand there and look out. Believe it or not, it worked! He just wanted to see what was going on. Not sure it would be so simple with Bruno's issues, but 'ya never know.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know you put a lot of thought into whether or not to adopt him and I also know you haven't taken this situation lightly. I don't have any great advice, but know that my thoughts are with you. I hope you can find a solution soon that will make everyone more at ease and happier.


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## kshort (Jun 4, 2004)

Here are a couple of forums...

http://www.therealjackrussell.com/wwwboard/forum.php

http://ajrtforum.proboards12.com/


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Do not know the names of the techniques. 

I am working on his recall with a dog whistle, when he hears it he usally comes running. BUT today he did not when he got out, BUT it was trash day, and my DH still got him, because I watch him in the yard and knew the second he was gone. 

I use treats to get him to give up what he has, I say drop it, and he does...but I need a treat EVERY TIME or he goes cujo. When I see him after something, I say leave it, it works sometimes. 

He sits to go outside, for treats (and is shakes now, lifts his paw), and for his food bowl. He sits to get his harness on. 

He goes in his kennel just fine, and stays there. 

When he is sleeping he has to be left alone or he growls at you. 

We had a very bad day today. I am fed up. I have a MAJOR house to run and clean. He has paralized me. I am locked in rooms with him. I am forced to watch his every move. We have a 4 bedroom house! I am a stay at home Mom with all that goes along with that, cooking, volunteering in my sons class. I have 3 human boys! 13, 6 and 5. My 13 year does not live here, but I am still responseable for him. He has chose to live with his father. 

He catches me off guard. He is smart enough to wait until he has that opportunity. He opens doors to get to stuff now, up on tables, He figured out how to go through the cat door to the basement...

ME, my DH, and my children (it was my other 3 dogs, but I have let them know they do not need to disapline him, that is when Shadow bit him)...are constantly saying, Bruno, Bruno, Bruno....while my other 3 dogs, lay up against a wall just looking...









It is CRAZY, I just do not know how to tell you.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I have said this before in previous posts about this dog and I will say it again - there is venting and there is needing advice (and I think this is a good place for both!







) . I hear your frustration and definitely understand what it's like to be in over your head with a dog and upset about what it's doing to the rest of our life. But there's an emotional reality and then there's the practical reality. Emotionally it sounds like you're fed up, but practically there are still things that can be done to help. 

Have you bought Jean Donaldson's book? That is a great place to start. It sounds to me like many of the things you are doing currently are reinforcing some of his bad habits - like in his mind you guys have a sequence that plays out when he's asked to give something up. 

Have you tried clicker training? It can work wonders with a dog like this. Is there a good clicker class in your area? It's not a great technique to self teach because it's easy to mess up when you're first starting.

I don't think it's a question of working harder as much as working differently. What you're doing now isn't working and you're feeling frustrated with him that you're giving and giving and he's not meeting you halfway. But the problem is he doesn't know. There's a failure of communication going on here. With better communication you might find that things could be so much better.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I understand the situation you are in.
Some of the offenses are serious, other not that serious.

95% of dogs will get into the trash. Best to keep trash somewhere where the dog cannot reach it. When my dogs were puppies, I got into the habit of having the trash in a small can on the refrigerator.
It is easy.

He does not distinguish between his toys and kids' toys. Most dogs don't. Can the location for the children's toys be limited to spaces the dog does not have access to? children's play rooms? A rescue friend of mine taught the grandkinds to keep their toys where they belong. if they leave them on the floor, they belong to the dogs, like it or not. It worked.

getting on the table is not nice but not a deadly sinn either. Maybe an adhesive foil on the table would do the trick. Or an electric mat.

I think it is a great success that he trades the item for a treat, give yourself some credit for teaching him that. it is OK to use it. 

You can also use the teathering method in the house.

I would use electric fencing for this dog instead of pts. Also an e-collar might be a useful tool in his training.

Usually in rescue we tether dogs that have housetraining and discipline issues. Maybe an indoor kennel would work for him when he is not supervised.


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## eggo520 (Oct 28, 2007)

I agree with 3K9Mom that this dog needs to find a new home. But let's be realistic here...in this economy people aren't exactly itching to take on new costs, I mean dogs.







It sounds like Kelly is doing everything she can (e-mailing rescues, calling shelters) to find this dog a home. In the meantime, I think most of us here are trying to offer stopgap measures to help improve the situation in the immediate future. Fosters can often put out a ton of effort to find a dog a new home, but in reality it all depends on that person willing to take on a new dog. Wanting to find a dog a home "quickly" doesn't always mean it will happen


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What we have here is a failure to communicate! Cool Hand Luke

I would not have a terrier of any kind without a significant stipend and valium but then again I looooove my Chow mixes. But they are a slightly







slower moving dog (in most situations) so you have time to think in between behaviors. 

I may be wrong but it seems like you do not or do not feel like you do. You are reacting. 
I like to break behaviors down to address them better. That way you are ready at the first sign of a behavior instead of after when it's too late. 

I also like to have if this, then this scenarios. If my dog tries to bite me I will do this-it gives me a better chance of reacting well and gives the dog consistency. 

I am not sure if you have leashed him to you during the day when it can be the two of you but that has always helped me. Tremendously! Actually for a while it backfired because Ava wanted to be leashed to me-and would push buttons until it would happen. 

I still am playing behavioral whack-a-mole so no perfection here. 

I agree it helps to vent but the reality is that it is what it is for right now. Your inner drill sargeant or motivational speaker needs to come out and take over because dogs are scared by our wimpy selves and react according to their nature. I have been filling a leadership vacuum lately and watching how each reacts to me when I fall short-from fear to confusion to delusions of granduer! Keep up the good work. Your mindset needs to reflect a keeping with this attitude- I firmly believe dogs get when we give up. 

And if you want to get weird there's always reiki and communicators!










Eta-nice breakdown Rebel.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No advice, just support from another who did have to give up a foster because our home wasn't a good place for him, even though I loved him dearly and he(I believe) loved me. I hope some of the other forum links will be able to help you. Another option would be a 4-H club? Some of them have dog obedience and you could check and see if there is someone looking for a dog to work with in this. My local one, the kids do agility as well as obedience so it may be worth a try. Good luck w/ Bruno.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

This day was SO bad. 

It turned from venting to needing to make a decsion. For my family (kids and dogs). 

Shadow is picking up bad habits from Bruno. He never growled before Bruno got here. BUT my other 3 some how get that I am boss. I do not have to be 6' 5" like my DH. They just respect me. So, I am keeping Shadow and the others in line. 

Bruno is SO intense that he does not care. 

I am not the person for him. 

The final blow came late tonight, while I was trying to watch DWTS. My 6 yr old was upstairs calling Daddy on his cell, he knows his #, but not our home,







He told his daddy that he was tired of everyone being mad at Bruno,









This cuts deep for me. What have I done? I rescued one to many. DO you know, I know you all do, how many sweet dogs are dying every day. I have turned this house upside down for this dog. 
My cat is confined to a room, she is 11 yrs. old, my first pet of all of them. 

My DH wants to take him to this new AC that just went private, they have a new adoption center. My decision (if they have room), is if I tell them his issues will they put him down? OR if I do not this process for Bruno, starts over....

I do not know if this is what I want. I e'd Omaha, and begged them for help, they are full. 

It is going to be a sleepless night.


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

At the risk of being flamed, I think you should consider turning him over or having him PTS yourself. You had good intentions, but this dog has serious temperament flaws... and you know something? There are plenty of sweet, non-aggressive dogs that are capable of living with a family and deserving of care... can't save every dog, unfortunately. 

If you hadn't intervened he would have been PTS for sure. You tried to give him a shot at life but... it's not working. There's only so much you can do.

This dog may not be completely beyond help with appropriate, firm training, the right home (one without other pets or children) and a behavior modification plan, but I don't think that it's worth the aggravation and pain (not to mention danger) to your family, including your resident pets, to keep him until a suitable home 'appears.' What if it never appears? Do you have to sacrifice the health, happiness and safety of your family for this dog?

It's very possible that he will end up being put down due to his aggression issues... and that's because a dog with those issues is going to be practically impossible to place safely. I don't think you should lie about him... don't want to run the risk of him hurting someone else.

It's unfortunate, but I think your family and your pets come first.

Flame away.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Before taking action, can you have the dog evaluated by an experienced JRT person? I don't disagree with some of what Nat's saying but I've also learned that one person's Cujo is another person's Terrier gone astray that can be fixed. I have been out to evaluate a LOT of dogs who were about to be PTS for biting and found fixable problems and behaviors that were being misinterpreted. A GSD who was going to be PTS for "attacking" people turned out to be a misguided Schutzhund lines dogs who thought it was a game and loved to grab loose clothing. I'm not saying that this is what is happening here but JRTs are scrappy little dogs who love to grab things and worry them in play or drive.

I am not in favor of dumping a true problem dog on an unsuspecting home but if you tell a shelter that a dog is a biter, no matter what the context or intent, typically they have no choice but to euth the dog for liability reasons.

If you have him evaluated by an experienced Terrier person then you'll have an unbiased assessment to help you make your decision on what to do next.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Several years ago I took in a JRT for training and it sounds like he was pretty much like the dog you describe. He was definitely running his household, and had them afraid to do any sort of correction. If he got a hold on the remote control, they couldn't take it from him or they'd get bit. If they were sitting on the couch with a blanket over them, and the dog was laying on the blanket, they had to wait until he chose to move because if they tried to move he'd bite them. He wasn't housebroken, either.

I had to be pretty tough with him. I'm all for as positive as you can be, but when a dog has learned the wrong behaviors to the point of biting (and all of what you describe ARE learned behaviors, things that he's found out work for him to get what he wants) then you sometimes have to just plain force him out of the mindset that he controls the world.

First of all, I would highly recommend an exercise pen. This is a pen that's made of stiff wire, with eight panels that are each two feet wide (they come in various heights) and can be folded up and easily stored or moved. They're GREAT for using indoors (I have several). If needed, you can put a top on the pen so that a dog can't jump out. With a JRT you could probably get away with a 42", but you may want to go with a 48" and then you could use it with larger dogs too (great for confinement after surgery, or if one has diarrhea, etc.) Here's an example of an exercise pen:

http://www.dog.com/item/midwest-pet-exercise-pen/

This will help alleviate your concerns about crating him all the time, and will keep him confined so that he can't pee anywhere he's not allowed. He NEEDS to be confined all the time. If he's peeing in places he shouldn't, or chewing on things that he shouldn't, that's a management issue and is 100% under your control. 

Now, once you have him confined, you have to set up some parameters for leadership. You have some options that weren't available before, once you have the ex-pen set up. You can train THROUGH the wire to avoid getting bit. Use something long enough to put through the wire that he wants to grab onto, and then teach him a "give" command (or "leave it") by giving the command and then pushing the pen into him, forcing him to let go. It doesn't have to be harsh, but if he needs a bit more correction you have that option too. You can follow this with a treat too, but the treat should NOT be visible beforehand. The problem with trading a treat for something he has is that the treat has become part of the cue.

Now, if he growls or snaps at you from behind the ex-pen, you have some options. First, there's no need to jerk your hand back - he can't get to you. Jerking your hand away (a completely natural behavior) only encourages dogs to bite, so if you can avoid that you're a step ahead. If he growls or bites, pop the fence up against him a bit harder. Let him see that you're not going to accept that. You might use a sound like "EHT!!" but I wouldn't get too vocal with him. Getting loud with an excitable dog usually only results in the dog getting more worked up.

Be sure to use lots of praise - calm, quiet, but happy praise - when he does what you want (like letting go of an item) EVEN if you've had to force him to do so.

Once he's letting go of things, you can start to work with him inside the pen. Wear a heavy leather glove, and do the same work as before. IF he bites you, it won't hurt and you won't have to jerk your hand away (again, that's a real important thing for him to learn - that you're NOT going to back away if he bites at you). You can use a piece of dowling - maybe three feet long - to help control him. The dowling can be used to push him a bit (literally) if you need to move him around. It can be used to bop him lightly if really needed (not that I'm big on bopping, but when you have a little dog with the mind of a huge dog, sometimes you have to just be tougher). He can learn that the piece of dowling is something to be respected - not to the point of cowering from it, but with an understanding that it's an extension of your hand that won't give in to being bitten.

He's going to need a LOT of exercise, but since he manages to get out of your back yard I would quit letting him out there. Instead, consider a very light long line. Parachute cord works well for a little dog. If you have room, use 50' or so, and tie one end so you don't have to mess with it. Go out with him and take a handful of throw toys (not one, but several). Throw a toy as far as you can so he can race after it, and then you run the opposite direction. As he runs back, throw a second toy away from him and then you run in the opposite direction - and continue doing this, picking up toys as needed. You want to know where the limits of his line are, but with 50' of line he can run nearly 100' if you have it tied in the right place. 

You may want to try frisbees - JRT's can be great frisbee dogs.

What I saw in the dog that I worked with, and what I'm reading from what you've written, is that these are both dogs that need way more exercise than they're getting, and need a very strong, fearless leadership. These types of dogs should never be allowed to dominate humans or it just escalates - they've got tough temperaments and need tough (but still loving) handling. The JRT you have should never EVER be allowed loose in the house because he's already learned to do whatever he wants. He shouldn't be allowed around your kids because every time he dominates someone (by making them afraid) it just teaches him to be more dominate. He probably shouldn't be allowed around your other dogs (at least not freely) if you find that they're picking up his bad habits. 

I think you CAN fix this problem but it will take more management than he's had so far. The ex-pen will help tremendously, as will the controlled exercise. And I commiserate with you on the biting - I only got bit once by the JRT who stayed with me, but I remember how much it hurt and I had a scar for years.

Good luck - 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: NatAt the risk of being flamed, I think you should consider turning him over or having him PTS yourself. You had good intentions, but this dog has serious temperament flaws... and you know something? There are plenty of sweet, non-aggressive dogs that are capable of living with a family and deserving of care... can't save every dog, unfortunately.
> 
> If you hadn't intervened he would have been PTS for sure. You tried to give him a shot at life but... it's not working. There's only so much you can do.
> 
> ...


I agree with this Nat. 

That is why I am up at 3 AM. 

I am thinking I should do the PTS. It is only fair. The shelter prob. will not take him anyway, then PTS with his habits...

Thanks for your input Pupresq, all of it. 

Melanie, I wish I had the time you talking about to devote to him to do all those things. 

My entire home has been a kennel for 6 months basically. My kids rooms are shut, toys in there, bathroom doors shut, he can open the bathroom doors now. 

I use gates. 

I even tried the tethering tonight that Jean suggested. It was like being tied to a bucking bronco. 

I need to try to get some sleep, he is sleeping with me, maybe that is why I cannot sleep, if you bump him he growls, but I am never afraid to move him. 

It is the taking stuff away part I am afraid of, he has bit me to many times. I am afraid because it hurts, and I am afraid I am going to hurt him back.









Sorry to bring this sad situation here to chat. I hope sleep helps. I just do not know what I am going to do for sure yet.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Kelly, I got up and noticed my computer was still on.

I know you're still awake, heartbroken with the choices (and lack of options) you're facing. Know you're not alone. I'm here thinking of you, thousands of miles away, my friend; you're not alone.







If only all dogs had someone who loved them and agonized over their fate as much as you have with Bruno. 

You and your family are in my prayers.


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

My heart goes out to you. As horrible as this is, I know the strength and love are within you to find the best solution for you and your family.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I wonder if you could write a letter to Ceasar Millan. Tell him you are on the verge of putting him down. Maybe he will take him?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqBefore taking action, can you have the dog evaluated by an experienced JRT person? I don't disagree with some of what Nat's saying but I've also learned that one person's Cujo is another person's Terrier gone astray that can be fixed. I have been out to evaluate a LOT of dogs who were about to be PTS for biting and found fixable problems and behaviors that were being misinterpreted. A GSD who was going to be PTS for "attacking" people turned out to be a misguided Schutzhund lines dogs who thought it was a game and loved to grab loose clothing. I'm not saying that this is what is happening here but JRTs are scrappy little dogs who love to grab things and worry them in play or drive.
> 
> I am not in favor of dumping a true problem dog on an unsuspecting home but if you tell a shelter that a dog is a biter, no matter what the context or intent, typically they have no choice but to euth the dog for liability reasons.
> 
> If you have him evaluated by an experienced Terrier person then you'll have an unbiased assessment to help you make your decision on what to do next.


I agree. 

My neighbor died-she was only in her 40's-and had a Scottie. He was terrifying to the whole neighborhood. 

Her sister asked if I could find a rescue for him. Bite history and all. I told them it was unlikely anyone would help, but found a Scottie rescue and called them. 

I told them what had happened and finally said, I have to tell you, he bites. 

The woman laughed. She laughed! She said what breed rescue is it that you do? I told her, she said, well in our rescue it is rare for us to get one that DOESN'T bite. They have work around contracts, etc. The people adopting these dogs understand their Scotties. 

Breed specific evaluation-an agility club is likely to have at least one breeder of JRTs-will give you the information that you need to make an informed decision. 

We here think he sounds like a nut/temperament case because most of us are not JRT people. However, having watched those little buggers in the agility classes I have been in, I would never say eh, he's just off. I think there are continuums of normal for different breeds and that true fanciers understand this. If I posted some of the things that a couple of my dogs do, I am sure I would get the same advice. 

My neighbor's Scotty-we ended up tranquilizing him while he was crated, putting two brooms through the crate to carry him to my car in case he woke up while we were carrying him, and I took him to meet the rescue people. I kept in touch with them-they said, very typical Scotty, very bright. He was adopted by a couple who RV'd all over the place and he was still a bite risk, but they love the breed and all that comes with it, so don't care. 

Like I said, I would never want one, and they were not truly intended to be just pets. They are a working breed, and not the kind of work I like! 

Not sure if you've found these sites: 
http://www.therealjackrussell.com/index.php
In MO-a breeder that might be able to help you: http://www.jrtcabreeders.com/Breeders/Hunter_s_Moon/hunter_s_moon.htm
http://www.therealjackrussell.com/rescue/index.php

http://www.mwjrtc.org/aboutMWJRTC.htm

Not sure where you are at: 
http://www.stlouisagility.org/
http://www.showmek9.com/
http://www.dogpatch.org/agility/agpage4.cfm

Oh-and the tethering-of course he was a bucking bronco! He knew what was happening. A dog in survival mode, who isn't sure who the leader is, who has a propensity to take that role anyway, is not going to passively accept leadership from someone that they know...if they wait them out...will eventually revert to inconsistent leadership. Not being critical of you, just understanding that need to relax on a dog, and having a dog that you can't do that with. Why do you think Kramer was an only dog for 9 years!


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

I think she tried a TON more than most folks would ever consider reasonable. This dog had so much more chance than most... Don't we wish all adopters would be so accomodating? 

About the breed eval... yes, very true. On the other hand, what are the chances that someone who knows the breed will also WANT such a feisty little JRT like, today? Or in the near future? This may or may not be acceptable from a JRT point of view, but whatever the evaluator says, who will in the end take responsibility for this dog for the rest of his life?

Who will you be comfortable placing such a dog with? He bites. This is not a joke. This is a huge liability. And a danger for anyone's family who has this dog. Sad as it is.









I have to agree with Nat 100% on this one.


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

I think JR lovers LIKE them feisty. We used to have one living near us, he hunted down all the squirrels in the neighbourhood and killed them. He bit other dogs, including ones in his family. His owner was proud of him. I think getting someone knowledgable with the breed to eval this guy is a wonderful idea.

Also the fact that he has never broken the skin in biting shows he has great bite inhibition - he isn't vicious, he knows exactly what he's doing. Which means it's probably fixable by someone who loves JRTs.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

True that. 

And I am not sure if obedience classes have worked or not but that might be another option until he can be gotten into rescue or rehomed with a terrier experienced handler-and can be a way to meet people with experience in the breed. 

http://www.therealjackrussell.com/breed/baddog.php
But when you read that and say okay, not a fit, but a typical terrier...there is a chance for this dog with people who love the breed. 

I don't know.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Excellent article Jean!!!!! Sounds like this little guy is acting in line with the breed characteristics. Daisy...please contact JRT rescues. They can give advice and direction...maybe help you get a good eval by a JRT savvy person....and even if they are full...at the very least...courtesy post. 

You know how GSD's that fall into inexperienced hands (I know you say you had one before...but sounds like an easy one...and not the typical hellion..lol) ....get a bad rap.........when sometimes all they need is someone that knows the breed and how to handle them and all their traits..........


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

OK, he might or might not be a normal JRT. That doesn't cahnge the fact that he isn't happy where he is now, his family isn't happy, and nobody volunteered to take him yet. Chances are not looking so great that someone will in the near future. In the meantime Daisy has a family, has kids, has a house, a family... And still gave 6 months for this situation to work tself out. She tried a million things. It's not working. 

And honestly I don't know how JRT rescues are, but the GSD rescue I'm with would not take this dog, were he a GSD, because he bites. Biters are next to impossible to place. And as I mentioned, a huge liability. That part doesn't bother anyone?


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

From a GSD standpoint...biters are hard to place...and yes...a liability. 

But from a small dog standpoint...it's more acceptable. I see "biters" posted all the time on the rescue forums...and they get pulled. (as depicted in Jean's story - rescue reply) Yep...those little ones get away with alot more. 

If it were me...I would contact every JRT rescue I could find...and at the very least...get their feedback, opinions, advice etc........

(I could be wrong...but I only see where she contacted AC...and one rescue which was full? and no good eval done? Eval by a JRT person would be a huge benefit as well)


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Unfortunately dogs don't have calendars, and don't realize that we have timelines in our mind for how they should progress. So this little guy is not aware that 6 months have passed without him doing what he needs to do. For us, 6 months is a long time-and people still problem solving do understand that, and the upside down-ness that it is causing in everyone's lives there. But I think people are also very hesitant to say that a dog that they've never met should be put down without all avenues exhausted and evaluations done. Like I said, I don't know. 

I am not sure if obedience classes have been done and if that would be a magic ticket, or not. I know they have helped me, and I am hoping to get back to them this year with some of mine. 

I only have terrier-Scotty rescue- "experience" of one dog. Totally different expectations there from GSD rescue regarding bites. 

http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/NY537.html is another contact to try in terms of the people to talk to type thing. I always found the JRT people to be kind of like their dogs, so would always find myself thinking, did I just get yelled at?







But being persistent with them seemed to get through.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Thank you for understanding AndreaG. 

What you are saying is true and fact and how we feel. 

I am a zombie this morning. I feel sick. There are people on this thread that understand, thank goodness. AND people on this thread still giving me advice, thank goodness. AND people seemly trying to talk me out of taking him in today, they do not open until noon. 

I have E-mailed EVERYONE...BEGGING For help. St.Louis, Omaha, JRTCA, ...

The new Private AC, told me they would sit down with me and talk about him...but they are not NO kill. 

This is killing me. I rallying, I save, I have read about, watched on tv, dogs struggling to live. I got him OUT of a kill shelter, concrete, chain link fence cage. He was there for 5 wks, they told me they passed him over twice. 

I am suppose to wake me DH up at noon, so we can take him. 

What kind of message am I sending me kids if I do this. If dogs are a problem get rid of them??









Thanks for being here, all of you. Sometimes I wish I would not have started this thread. I feel I need to answer to you all now. Justify what I am doing. AND he is NOT a GSD. 

This makes me think of Bella the Sable that was in the wrong hands, now she has a owner that looks like Santa or was it Captain Kangaroo? I talked to the MOGS pres. about her...they funded her in Wis., she was foster by a person from this board. 

See I have GSD connections now. I do not have JRT connections. Plus, he is turning on people, not just dogs. 

Went I went to the Omaha JRT rescue site on Petfinder. They have about a dozen or less. Mostly no kids, no cats, Possesion issues, food issues, etc. He is like them. I am starting to wonder if he had sport would he change?? Would having an outlet help?? 

I have more thinking to do. I cannot see myself doing this. I want to vomit. I would seriously drive him to Omaha myself OR St. Louis if they would help me. I live near KCI airport, so I am hours away from those places, but I would do it.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I totally agree Jean.

Kelly - even if a JRT person evaluates him, that's no guarantee that a rescue will take him but it's a start







. It would give you solid unbiased information about his behavior. They might be able to recommend some new techniques that you have NOT tried that would help a lot. They might be able to put you in touch with a rescue group or a possible home. I know when I get called out to look at a GSD, even if I'm just evaluating if I see a dog in dire straights I'm going to do what I can to help (the "vicious" GSD I mentioned above came home in my car with me). I don't see what there is to lose by approaching it this way and potentially a dog's life to gain.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Just wanted to say, and this is the last thing I should be worried about right now. I am not trying to take credit for Bella in that statement above, just reread, kinda looked that way....I had one conversation, there were many people that did much more.


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## oregongsdr111 (Nov 20, 2005)

Kelly,
I can tell you are exhausted, and burnt out on this dog. It happens. 

One of the benefits of belonging to a rescue is that many times when you get a dog that just will not work out, no matter what you have tried, you can move them into a different foster home. 
If there is a rescue in your area maybe you could join with them. If they are full they might have an easy dog they would switch out.

I know I have had to move some of the GSD's I have taken in. We hit a wall, and then as I get irritated with the dog it regresses, or develops a different behavior altogether. I can put that dog in a different (experienced) foster home, and they build off of what I have accomplished, and go beyond because they have not been through the head butting. Sometimes it is a male vs female issue.

I have also taken in dogs that people have said were killers, destruction mongers, escape artists, and child haters. After a few weeks I am still seeing a sweet, happy dog that is free roaming my house, and taking treats from the service station attendants. 

Some dogs and some people just do not click. JRT's are not an easy breed. If you were closer I have a person here that is equal to a JRT whisperer. Some of her tricks for extreme biters are to keep the dog muzzled, and keep the dog connected to her at all times unless the dog is in the kennel. It can be a really ruff battle of wills with a JRT gone wild. I can see how this type of behavior in a dog would be hard in a family with children. It can be like taming a gator. 

I think the dogs only hope is a breed specific rescue, evaluator or trainer. I also think that most of us in rescue have been seen as lunch meat by our dogs. It goes with the territory at the rescue / foster level. If a dog cannot be broken, and a breed savvy behavior assessor states the dog is a danger, at that point a decision must be made. That is also where being part of a rescue comes in handy. A group decision is made. No one person has to carry all the burden, and or guilt over the decision.

Best of luck to you and the dog.

It can be a danger for you to keep the dog much longer as the dog can sense what you are feeling. Who have you been working with or contacted so far? Maybe if some of us as rescue representatives contacted these folks we might be able to help??


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

I'm not sure if I missed it, but what kind of corrections is he getting for bad behaviour? Does he seem to "get it" when he gets a correction?

Have you tried giving him time-outs?

Have you tried contacting the Omaha rescue just to see if they would do an eval? They might have some hands-on advice for you.

I have had good advice from breed specific rescues.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqI totally agree Jean.
> 
> Kelly - even if a JRT person evaluates him, that's no guarantee that a rescue will take him but it's a start
> 
> ...


Where do I find this JRT person? 

or rescue? No one is responding. I contacted the first one, after Shadow bit into Bruno. Found out then that the one from here is closed because the guy got a spinal injury, I called and talked to him. 

I have had to offers to possilbly list for me IF I keep him here. One never put him up on Petfinders. 

As far as the JRTCA they are wonderful. If you are registered with them. They do all they can. BUT rescue resources for JRT? I am finding out are slim to none. 

Jean the link you sent for the one in NY. Only has 2. But How would I get him there? I am going to contact them.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Kelly,

I understand how difficult this is for you and you are absolutely right to compare him to Bella. It wasn't just that Bella was having problems with other dogs, she was also going nuts! She was going to be pts and now she's doing great. So, it really can happen. 

I think you need to take a series of very deep breaths. Get an exercise pen like Melanie suggested. Get a tie out for him like I suggested. And get him a muzzle and some heavy gloves for you. Those are 4 very small things that, at the very least, will keep everyone safe and give you more control over him. Then just push, push, push until you find a JRT person to eval him. You can do this! Give him that one chance and give yourself the satisfaction of knowing that you really did do everything you could do for him.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Do you have a local earth dog group? Terrier trials? You should also try contacting any local agility resources and asking if they've got JRT people.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Paula when I am calling and E-mailing and begging. 

That is what I am offering a trade to foster and volunteering...

Also I think he does sense my feelings, he has turned up the volume and is on full tilt of trying to destroy stuff.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqDo you have a local earth dog group? Terrier trials? You should also try contacting any local agility resources and asking if they've got JRT people.


Not local. Everything is in St. Louis at Purina Farms. There is a earth dog comp to anyone and everyone in April was thinking about taking him to..before all this. 

I have contacted 3 agility people. One with JRTCA.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think I posted a link to a breeder in MO-breeders can help too. And their national rescue page. I know when people post multiple links I overlook or get overwhelmed by them.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Try the earth dog folks even if they're further away. They may know someone who lives closer to where you are.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I was just looking back through things I missed, I also contacted Pacific Northwest that 3K9Mom sent me. 

I will look at yours again Jean, I just saw Breeders, I did not see a rescue section. 

I did contact the earth dog people.


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## oregongsdr111 (Nov 20, 2005)

Another suggestion,
Have you made up a letter that you can mass mail to every rescue listed on petfinder and 1800saveapet within 100 miles. Many times all breed rescues have a specific person in the foster system that loves one breed over another. Most will have a chi lover, cocker lover, ect.

Also hit the Rat Terrier groups. Many of the Terrier groups know each other and have access to inside numbers. Our shelter has a state rescue book that has rescues by breed. Mass e-mail every breeder you can find on the internet. Some times breeders also rescue. I don't have any other ideas so I will leave you alone now. 

One more thing on a side note. Please make sure even in these desparate times that you get references on any place you find. We have several rescues in Oregon that would take in this dog, but the dog would be better of euthanized than with them.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986I was just looking back through things I missed, I also contacted Pacific Northwest that 3K9Mom sent me.
> 
> I will look at yours again Jean, I just saw Breeders, I did not see a rescue section.
> 
> I did contact the earth dog people.


In MO-a breeder that might be able to help you: http://www.jrtcabreeders.com/Breeders/Hunter_s_Moon/hunter_s_moon.htm
There are breeders on this board who help dogs who aren't theirs. It is worth a try. Would be something if he was their breeding! 


http://www.therealjackrussell.com/rescue/index.php
Has national rescue network information as well as local.

http://www.mwjrtc.org/aboutMWJRTC.htm
A JRT Club

Great post Paula. Especially the caution, knowing where the dog is going. 

I would also spreadsheet where I contacted, who I contacted specifically and what result. 

I would even do that with behavioral things I tried with Bruno. What I did, when I did it, how long I tried it, and what worked. In counseling we call it solution based. 

You said you see that on the petfinder pages they have all those no dogs, no cats, no kid icons. YES. That doesn't mean they are bad dogs. That means they are who they are.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

in line with this...I was just at the petstore and there was a lady with a little Tiebetan Spanial...my son asked if he could pet her...and the lady said...she doesn't like kids and she bites...lol.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> If you were closer I have a person here that is equal to a JRT whisperer.


Paula, would your friend take this JRT on as a project, if we were able to fly Bruno to her?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

just wanted you to know I feel your pain. I have a good friend here in CT who has had JRT's for 15 years or more, she is a judge, was heavily into rescue, in fact head of rescue and it burned her out. She never refused a dog in need, some were great and were placed easily, others have been with her for years, others not placeable. 

Bruno is your typical dog that would end up in my friend's rescue.
They are ALOT of work to begin with, not to mention ALOT MORE work when you try to rehab..The majority of JRT's in rescue go with the requirement of no small kids, no cats, no small animals because JRT's are known for just the behaviors your seeing in Bruno. Certainly not all, but they can definately take over your life very quickly. They have a mind of their own and when they decide to do something, they are gonnna do it. )

It's why most all JRT rescues are full and few and far in between.
If you'd like to email me privately, I'd be glad to give you my friends email /phone number and maybe she could direct you to someone in your area.

If I had all you've got going on, I honestly don't want to even think about how I'd deal with this dog. Not saying he's a bad dog, but you know he needs a highly strict regime and someone who is going to be on him 24/7. 

GOod luck with your decision, not an easy one, but you need to do what's best for YOU and the dog.
Diane


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Diane, I did PM you. I think you gave me an E-mail before that I have since lost...I actually think that person E-d me back. 


It is done. He is at an AC that went private March 1st. They said they would do all they could to find him a home. That they have adopted out 3 JRT's this month already. 

Once his pic goes up I am going to still contact the rescues to try and go pull him if he is not adopted. 

It is the most horrible thing my DH and I have been through. I screamed at one point for him to turn around and go home. I have been crying for 2 days. 

I am still in shock, that I had to do this. I feel like a monster right now. I know I am forever changed, I have condemed so many owner turn in's. Now I know how things can fail. 

I am walking in a parade this weekend in support of a rescue. Now to tell you the truth I feel like there is this scarlett letter on me, this is going to take a long time to shake if ever. 

I keep thinking what he must be thinking, I know that is silly. 

They asked me his living conditions for the questionare, I said he is spoiled rotten he slept with me last night, the lady smiled and said OK, that is good, I will put that, don't worry, we will find him a good home. 

It is so weird to come home, leave doors open, not put up gates....

It just hurts so bad right now. I will still be working for him, from here, to get him a home, I will not forget him. 

After his pic goes up on their sight, if anyone wants the link, let me know I will PM it to you. 
I do not know what else to say, i AM in tears.


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## oregongsdr111 (Nov 20, 2005)

You did what you had to do.

I do think that you should join up with a rescue. 
You need that type of support behind you, and the dogs you are pulling.


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## oregongsdr111 (Nov 20, 2005)

Kelly,
I was just told that you are covered in the rescue area.
I am sorry, I misunderstood the situation.
I thought you were pulling these little ones, and trying to adopt them out. I just hate to see anyone all alone.

I now understand that this was to be your personal dog.
Take care. My thoughts are with you.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

That kinda stings, but, I derserve it. 

I know there is not going to be total support here after what I did today, I probably need a break from here now. Concentrate on continuing to try to make this have a positive out come. 

I do volunteer for a rescue and other organizations. 

I do not go around and pull dogs. 
Lady yes, Bella found as stray, Shadow failed foster attempt, and Bruno yes (we were still grieveing over our JRT we lost 2 yrs ago, not just pulling willy nilly). 

I will not do it again. I will not turn around and get another dog if that is what you are thinking. 

I should not be posting right now, I am probably not making sense. I am to upset.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

OK, I just read your second post....

My brain is fried. Sorry Paula, I know the people you come across, GAG, I cannot believe I was anywhere on that radar today. 

There were people looking at us...the lady kept saying owner surrender....


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Kelly.


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## eggo520 (Oct 28, 2007)

Kelly your efforts to help this dog went above and beyond! Take comfort in the fact that you tried so hard for this little guy...and you are still trying! I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers this week


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986OK, I just read your second post....
> 
> My brain is fried. Sorry Paula, I know the people you come across, GAG, I cannot believe I was anywhere on that radar today.
> 
> There were people looking at us...the lady kept saying owner surrender....


You know what? They know nothing about your situation or the attempts you made to help him. You did what was right for your family.


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## Elmo's Mom (May 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: NatYou know what? They know nothing about your situation or the attempts you made to help him. You did what was right for your family.


I couldn't agree more.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Daisy1986, after that first incident, did you ever take Bruno to obedience classes?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=902188&page=2#Post902188

Did you make sure that AC knew that he nipped, and didn't bite? I sure hope that the little guy makes it.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I do not know what you are trying to do with this post now after the fact. That is really insensative Lisa. 
There is NO WAY that would have helped. I did everything they would have done. If I am wrong and you are looking for someone to blame, fine blame me. Flame me. 

No he was not taken to obedience classes. 

Shadow never attacked him again. I was able to control my other 3. Even though he would get on top of Lady's head and hump it. 

I just do not think it would have helped in this situation. I was able to successfully train 3 other dogs. AND train Bruno. He was 2 yrs old with deep seated issues. 

When I looked into the classes they were all about sit, stay, my dogs do all of that even Bruno. 
He has cat aggression, he is posessive to the point of biting, he was an escape artist (7 times), a digger (just random holes in the yard), he chewed up anything he could get a hold of and he peed in my house.

My issue was time, with kids and 3 other dogs I did not have the time to devote to him. AND no one else in the JRT world does either. I still have not heard from anyone. No kill shelters around here have waiting list of 2 months for small dogs, and 6 months for large dogs and cats. 

I have down played a lot of Bruno's behavior. I thought maybe he could have another home. That was not realistic or fair. 

I am hurting like crazy. My regret this morning is that I took him there and did not PTS myself. So, he could know love all the way out of this world. He was loved by my family. I am going crazy thinking his last night will be in a cold cage then PTS. 

I looked back at this shelter, no that I am calmer, just noticing there is no NO cats or KIds symbols. He will probably be put down. 

I did write down nip. Even though it was a bite. He bit. He pretty much attacked, when he had something he did not want you to take away. 

My family and I need to heal from this. This is probably going to haunt me for the rest of my life. I never should have adopted him from the other AC. BUT he knew love for 6 months. We gave him everything he needed and then some. 

Our house now is immediately changed. No gates (except at night, on my bedroom), my boys are playing with their toys our of their rooms, my cat is already coming out, etc. It was what we had to do. 

It is just going to hurt for a long time. I still want to go get him right now. If I see him up on the website I might feel better, but still worry. AND it will kill me to see him in a cage. 

I just know that is not going to happen. WHO should have this dog? I just do not know who I would give a dog like this, unless they were a hard core JRT person. AND they are to busy.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

Kelly, you did so much more than what 99.9% of people would have done. Again, I only WISH most, who adopt, would go halfway where you have gone. You have a family, a life, house, kids, you HAVE to think about their needs, too! Try not to beat yourself up over this. I know I would feel like a complete failure, too, in your situation, because you care so much. But again, try to focus on the others around you as well! Hugs.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Sorry Kelly, I had to stop reading after you said you did all you could. 

You never consulted a trainer like you said you knew you needed to do back in Dec. 

You have had some really excellent suggestions in this thread by many, including pupresq and Jean. 

You had your mind made up when you started this thread, and the folks here have given you permission to dump him, some even gave you permission to put him down.

Okay, so you were in over your head, it happens. You weren't the human he needed, it happens. But we all know that each trip back to the AC makes him less adoptable. You have convinced us all that he is Cujo, just a terrier that never drew blood from you. I am concerned the portrait you painted to AC. I don't believe he should be misrepresented, but you didn't have the tools to evaluate or train him. 

My girl is a terrier mix. Max is a GSD. I have to have completely different skill sets to deal with them. Because you didn't have that skill set, nor did you consult with someone that could help you develop that skill set, he pays. 

It is what it is. I understand you are hurting, but you aren't the one that slept in AC last night.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Is that how your are hanging the blame on me training? 

AND saying I did not have terrier skills? This was my second JRT. 

OR not taking the suggestions from this thread? 

I really do not think Jean or pupresq want you to speack for them. 

People think that a dog has been abused when they hold their head down or lay on their side and pee. 

I feel that Bruno was abused because of his aggression. The more I tried to dominate him the more he got mad. 

That is fine that you feel this way Lisa you can have your opinon. I think this is why I kept coming back to this thread. 

I was just waiting for someone to confirm how I feel about myself. 

Now that you are saying this though, I know it is not true. I know I did everything I could. 

How do you know a trainer would not have told me to put him down? If he was a GSD that is exactly what I would have been told. 

I am done this is a mess. I need to heal. 
If you can help him Lisa, please feel free to contact all JRT rescues again, and get him out of there.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: bsinghVA
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: NatYou know what? They know nothing about your situation or the attempts you made to help him. You did what was right for your family.
> ...


I only came back here to say thanks for everyone's support and got side tracked. 

Thanks for the PM's and sharing your stories. It has helped a lot. 

The ones that understand what I just went through are the ones that have been through similar situations. 

When you have to scarifice for the good of an entire family. 

I am going to go walk Shadow.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/MO07.html

This is where he is if they list him and you are serious about helping him. I do not know if that is within the rules or not to put up this thread. He is not up yet.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am moving this thread to the behavior section. Much important information that extends beyond chat. 

I do want to comment on training in general-for any dog and person team, obedience training in a structured, appropriate class will allow you to deepen your bond, provide the dog with rules and limits and a shared language for those things beyond the basic commands, and force you to rely on each other which gives the dog a reason to trust you. It also gives you feedback from someone watching you and your dog interact. You also have the homework concept, and pressure to work on behaviors at home or look like the Sweathog the next week. 

I do not want anyone reading this thread to walk away thinking that there is no reason to go to obedience classes if a dog has the basic commands down. Particularly if you are having issues. 

I am glad you posted that link. I am going to check it for when he is there and try to network with Lisa (I am presuming) and anyone else on this thread interested-let me know. 

Are the places you contacted already in this thread?


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I do think all training is a good idea. 

If you are serious about helping him. 

I wish someone would have said that yesterday. 

I would call today. I do not think they are going to put him up, I maybe wrong. 

I will start tracking down all I have contacted. I contacted St. Louis Rescue, that was months ago. Left a message. Wanting advice. They never called back. 314-963-4715 They have one dog up on their petfinder site. 
http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/jkrusel.html

I asked my MOGS president, who I just talked to and she is not happy with me....to post him, she never did. 

I know I contacted Omaha, told them I would trade, foster, volunteer. Their website says they are full. 

There was one in Shawnee Kansas, with Paul Kimmell, he gave me advice when my first girl was a puppy. I called him because he is still listed. He had a spinal cord injury and does not rescue any longer. He was supportive, and said I had a tough road with all I had going on in my house. 


I contacted Pacific through E-mail. 

I will check my E-mail for more...

Happy Dogs rescue, the ones that had Bella. They are full and out of fosters. 

Networked through friends, that is how I found the JRT lover with 40 acres. They ended up saying no. 

I wanted to respond to someone who said they are worried about how I sold (made him sound to the shelter) this dog. 

I was honest and should have been. 

I do not know why I am now being treated like an idoit that knows nothing about dogs. I knew when you was playing with his growls or just making noise to get me away, like when he was sleeping. OR when he was going to bite. 

He went after blow dryers, vaccums, anything that scared him. That is just noise and fear. The possesion thing was serious. 

If he got adopted. One day, they get out the vaccum, he would be gone in 80% of homes. OR peed once. OR jumped on their table.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Not sure still looking it is possible that I missed this Leslie MO, person. 

http://www.russellrescue.com/contacts.php4 I know you put this link up yesterday. 

When I pulled the page up, I knew I had been there, BUT I contacted St. Louis underneath. No the Jerry W. guy. 

There are so many that I contacted in my sent, all the E-mails do not say where I got them. I also contacted the sporting people with JRTCA. 

Still looking, my son is at preschool right now. Do not know why I said that, I guess I feel on trail.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986I do think all training is a good idea.
> 
> If you are serious about helping him.
> 
> ...


The reason that no one said that yesterday? He was your dog yesterday. That's why people were giving you the ideas on how to help and not doing it themselves. 

We are also in other parts of the country completely, with various lack of contacts in the terrier world as well, and varying needs of dogs locally, so doing it for you would have been weird and much more difficult. 

I have to work this afternoon and am not sure I'll be able to call about him just FYI for anyone reading. 

Please, also, this thread is not about anything personal, it is about the dog, so don't worry about being on trial or anything like that! The focus is Bruno.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

OK, Jerry is contacted with link to shelter, if he can help get him out. 

Heck, if someone can take him, help him, I will go get him back. Drive him to you...I just did not have those options yesterday. 

I know I contacted Omaha too. http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/NE35.html

If you look at all of their, they just about all have no kids, no cats.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I will send this link to a call of JRT people I know. Maybe they have some ideas as far as a placemnt.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

For me this is not about anything personal or about Kelly (who I like very much) it's about Bruno. This is literally life or death for him. I was disappointed that he ended up in animal control yesterday because I think there were still many things that could have been tried that weren't, many of which were suggested on this thread and others that had been suggested before. I was also sad to see people recommending euthanasia for a dog they had never seen or evaluated. We throw around words like "Cujo" but the threads also say Bruno never broke skin and never bit anyone but Kelly - even allowing the children to "carry him like a sack of potatoes." While things like cost of drying cleaning or feelings of frustration are very important to us as people, they have little bearing on the choices a dog makes. Having worked with a lot of terriers, Bruno does not sound like a vicious or even a dominant dog. Nor does he seem particularly damaged - more like a JRT with true terrier temperament who has had little direction and no outlet. I have seen JRTs worry "prey" items (toys, scraps of cloth etc) and they sound ferocious. I think it's quite possible that this guy got into a bad behavior chain - perhaps even thinking he was being rewarded for that behavior. We can do something for a long time but if it's not a technique that works for that dog, the length of time isn't going to make it better. We have to try something else. And sometimes that means saying we simply don't know and accepting help from someone else like a trainer. 

One thing I have learned in my time working with dogs is that there is always more to learn. Even though I have taught obedience classes myself, I learn something new every time I take one. I learn something new about dogs with each new foster. Every time I think I've got it down, someone comes along and throws me a curve ball. It's part of what makes it so fascinating. I am staggered by the amazing diversity of personalities and quirks in dogdom and JRTs are VERY different from GSDs, as well as being quite different from each other. When we compare a new dog to an older one we can be setting ourselves up for disappointment because they're all different and what works for one may not work for the next. 

I would have been happy to work to find a local JRT person but did not know that was needed from me. If anyone talks to the shelter he is in, and there is something I can do to help from over here, please let me know. I will go ahead and put out some feelers. It would be good to find out whether the shelter is even willing to release Bruno (whether via adoption or rescue) before pursuing many options.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I can't seem to find the name (and hence the number) of the shelter. Can someone post (repost???) it?

Nevermind, got it: http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/MO07.html


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Called the shelter. He is up for adoption, first come first served. They work with rescues and were very nice. If someone wants to help by contacting JRT rescues in the area, it would certainly help Bruno.

I have to agree with pupresq here. I find it sad that members encourage someone to surrender a dog to Animal Control or even PTS without a proper evaluation by a trainer or an attempt to attend obedience class.
I do like Kelly and understand that she is overwhelmed by too may dogs and family, but having a dog PTS does not replace formal training. The point of an obedience class is not only for the dog to sit and down, the goals are for the owner and the dog to learn to communicate more efficiently so that the dog learns respect for Kelly. The dog learns to focus on the owner under distractions, for example. Obedience class is a formal requirement for any good rescue adoption. I don't think this is a vicious dog that kids can carry around like a sack of potatoes. Some rescues require less work to be manageable in the home, others more.

I feel that there was alot of good advice on this thread, which was rejected because the decision was already made when the thread was started. The problems have been around for months, and he could have been on the waitlist of no-kill shelters during that time. Our rescue recently took back a dog adopted from us with similar complaints. He was digging up the yard, barking when chained outside (violation of the adoption contract) was getting away when left alone in the yard, having accidents and "biting the kids" (it turned out to be mouthing because they never taught him not to mouth). The family adopted him as a puppy. He was housebroken and well beheved in the foster home at 6 months, knew basic commands. They managed to undo most of the training the pup had during the two years they had him. This is a 35lbs shepherd mix pup, totally cute, and the older children could have easily helped with the training. Everybody in the family loved to play with him but nobody did any training. They just did not have time to do any of the training suggestions the rescue made because they were busy. 

Our volunteers have jobs, families and dogs too and we made the time for the dog they dumped, again he was well behaved in the foster home and had no accidents with a little supervision. We started him on obedience again, and the no mouthing. He was adopted soon into another family with three kids, the children actively participate in the training and they are very proud that he is the star, the smartest dog, in the obedience class. 

I am not talking in the air, I took in many dogs that were discarded by their families, trained them and found them homes. I have been bitten quite a few times too (pretty badly too) and kept working with those dogs. So I do walk the walk.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I would like to add that, even though he is not a GSD, I hope Bruno will get the same help as Bella did.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I am reading this last page with my mouth open. 

I cannot believe the way you people are treating me. 

I never should have posted this here. I have been warned and warned about this forum. 

Do I need to remind you Rebel he would have been PTS in October if we had not pulled him out of the AC? 

I got one to many dogs, in over my head. 

Is this how you people treat people who are desperate? 

Try this, oh try that, for pages....AND most of it I did try. 

Because you have child care to take dogs to training, and the money. 

It was a horrible bad situation. I gave it my all. 

AND now you want to hurt my feelings, talk down to me like I am an IDOIT. AND go save him like your some kind of hero's. WHEN I TRIED. 

SOMEONE offered on this thread to buy him a plane ticket. 

THIS IS THE LAST TIME I will be hurt by the people on this forum. Do not treat owners who are in trouble like this. Good people, people trying to help. 

How dare you bring up Bella again. I case that was close to our hearts here in MO. AND throw it in my face. 

I hope you save him. I only want the best for him. If someone who is kind and has 1/2 a brain wants my help PM, I will come look for that. I will go get him and get him to you. 

This is about him. BUT you Rebel and Lisa have went above and beyond that. I am done with this forum and rescue period. 

It is about my dogs and my family. Thanks for kicking me when I am down, Rebel.


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## Sue F (Oct 3, 2007)

As a JRT owner myself, I see Bruno's issues as very workable..by someone who is comfortable with JRTs. I agree, that it is a time consuming job, but not impossible in the least. 

I certainly hope Bruno gets another chance.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

As a trainer, I have seen nothing in the description of this dog that makes me think he's not trainable or adoptable - he simply needs the right person with the experience to deal with him. I tried to give advice based on what has worked with a similar dog in the past but I believe that the decision to get rid of Bruno had already been made when this thread began. The other JRT that I worked with turned into a very nice little dog and the owners were thrilled with him. He was every bit as much of a problem as what has been described with Bruno.

I agree with those who wonder why anyone would suggest euthanasia on a dog they've never seen. Perhaps they were just saying what they felt the OP wanted them to say? I don't know.

I, too, hope Bruno gets another chance. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986.....AND now you want to hurt my feelings,
> 
> ...Do not treat owners who are in trouble like this. ...


Kelly, this isn't about wanting to hurt your feelings. But you were not the only one in trouble. Bruno was also in trouble, and his life was on the line.

I'm not a rescue person, I don't have the emotional fortitude to do that work. I'm a trainer, I'm a health and nutrition geek. I saw a dog and family that needed help in December. I saw how the situation escalated to what we have now. When I read this current thread, it offended all of my sensibilities. 

This earlier statement of yours



> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986..... The more I tried to dominate him the more he got mad. .....


tells me that a good trainer could have fixed a lot. It still might not have worked out for you or your family, but there is a level of blame and a level of deflection that was unfair to Bruno.

Bruno would never be your former JRT. The VERY good news is that it looks like he will get a second chance to be his own dog. When I called the shelter at closing time, it looked like they were in the process of adopting him out, to a family that knew JRTs.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Closing thread.


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