# Thoughts about this pairing?



## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

I am a newbie. Looking for a nice WL German Shepherd. I am considering a puppy from these two dogs and would like to know what everyone thinks about the pair as far as temperament and drives and what the resulting pups would be suitable for. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=659019-el-passo-moravia-campanella

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=720167-glimmer-moravia-campanella


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

WAYYYYYYYYY too tight linebreeding! Geez - high probability you would have a nonstop whirling dervish on your hands 

and that is at first glance.....

If you want to do sport - leave the dog in a kennel it's whole life and never interact with it other than training - as is common in Europe - that is one thing - but if you want to live with the dog....get a pup here in the States from someone who lives with their dogs.


Lee


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

Thank you for the reply. I am new to WL Shepherds and I'm trying to learn how to read pedigrees and decipher what's good and what's bad. These dogs are imported and are in the states and I told the breeder what I am looking for and she said they might produce it. I had some doubts so I came here. Not really sure what line to go with or breeder. I live in Michigan. I want a working line dog that is capable of being a companion. I understand the dog will have exercise requirements but I'm trying to figure out which line or pairing would produce a level dog capable of calming down and not requiring hours upon hours of extensive ecxercise. I'm trying to do my research but it seems as though a lot of breeders don't even know what they are doing/breeding and it is hard to find honest and good advice.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

You are totally right - many many people have no clue what they are breeding, what dogs bring what characteristics to the table....they buy dogs with pedigrees that are full of highly touted names, and put them together thinking more is better when it is quite the opposite.

If you are not hung up on a small puppy - Lisa, one of hte mods here, has a young male very suitable to an active companion home....

Lee


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

While I would not totally count out a young dog I would prefer a puppy. And I am not ready for a dog right at this moment. I will be in approximately 4-6 months I believe. I am just trying to figure out what to look for as far as lines and reputable breeders and to maybe place a deposit or have an upcoming breeding in mind. I am willing to wait for the right dog. I would prefer to have a pup within a year from now. Closer to the 4 to 6 month from now range would be ideal.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

In Michigan the only breeder of WL I can recommend is 
(Wildhaus Kennels, Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan)

I know them personally. Have known and trained with their dogs since 2003. Very good at picking pups for their buyers with excellent lifetime support. They are just went of Ann Arbor.

And to add, they also work and title their own dogs. They do tend to have a long waiting list so worth contacting ASAP.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And I do agree with Lee. That pedigree you posted is scary. Not just the drive, but I would worry about bidability or willingness.


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

I have seen them mentioned often as a reputable breeder. I just didn't think they would have any lower drive dogs suitable for active pet life.?


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

I looked at their website and it does look like they will consider active pet homes so I'll send them a message


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If breeding for high end sport dogs is the intent, then I understand this breeding. But the balance I like to see in the breed is being compromised by tight linebreedings on sport genetics. Not a breeding I would push for family life, though I am sure there will be some dogs in this litter that will do well in family. Goes down path of show breeding except with sport lines.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Amber0917 said:


> I have seen them mentioned often as a reputable breeder. I just didn't think they would have any lower drive dogs suitable for active pet life.&#55357;&#56853;


I have two dogs from the WH lines, and train with many of them. They are very good dogs, can do whatever asked. Depending on the pairing, some are sportier than others. My male from the G litter is amazing. I'll be lucky to ever have another like him. I also have the brother to the pup Lisa is selling. Awesome temperament, he is very stable, clear headed and a joy to have in my home.
What part of the state are you in?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Cliff, I am not even sure I would want that litter for sport.  Tom was not an easy dog in obedience. He just had one of the best trainer/handlers in the world. I question how willing they would be. Unwilling thin nerved dogs are no fun for anyone to train or own.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

lhczth said:


> Cliff, I am not even sure I would want that litter for sport.  Tom was not an easy dog in obedience. He just had one of the best trainer/handlers in the world. I question how willing they would be. Unwilling thin nerved dogs are no fun for anyone to train or own.


So why breed these kinds of dogs that will likely be too much for most owners? I know alot of people say they want a sport dog without knowing what goes into training and controlling such a dog. I was recently told by a very well known trainer/competitor that most of the top dogs are not suitable for home life. 

Its concerning that so many people are looking at working dogs (I was one of them) not knowing what it takes to bring up one. I'm not talking about the OP here, just a generalization. I know, there are plenty of people on here that say their dogs are working dogs that are great house pets. Are these the rule or exception to the rule? I think Cliff said it right comparing to show dogs. Focusing on a very narrow characteristic, while ignore the "big picture" seems shortsighted and does the breed an injustice. 

I for one would love a low key dog that can be happy in the house, great off switch, but has the courage the breed was created for.


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

I live in central Michigan. Close to Mt. Pleasant. I want a companion. I am aware German Shepherds as a breed have certain exercise requirements, especially working line dogs. I enjoy outdoor activities such as camping, hiking, swimming, biking etc. and I want a buddy to do those things along with me. I want a do anything go anywhere with me dog. I do have a full time job but my partner works a morning shift and I work a night shift. The dog would not be left alone very often and on my days off would most likely be accompanying me in whatever I do unless impossible. There is also a Kennel Club located near me which offers a facility in which to practice agility, advanced obedience, rally, tracking and field trials etc. as well as offers classes. I am planning on joining and participating as much as possible. I am committed to offering my future dog exercise but I am looking for a dog with a lower energy level that is not GO GO GO all the time. A dog with a nice off switch and that won't be miserable if all I can offer for a few days is a walk/bike run and some fetch, obedience training or play with a flirt pole. As often as I can I would do something more like hiking or visiting the kennel club facility but that just wouldn't be realistic as an every day thing for me.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

eddie1976E said:


> So why breed these kinds of dogs that will likely be too much for most owners? I know alot of people say they want a sport dog without knowing what goes into training and controlling such a dog. I was recently told by a very well known trainer/competitor that most of the top dogs are not suitable for home life.
> 
> Its concerning that so many people are looking at working dogs (I was one of them) not knowing what it takes to bring up one. I'm not talking about the OP here, just a generalization. I know, there are plenty of people on here that say their dogs are working dogs that are great house pets. Are these the rule or exception to the rule? I think Cliff said it right comparing to show dogs. Focusing on a very narrow characteristic, while ignore the "big picture" seems shortsighted and does the breed an injustice.
> 
> I for one would love a low key dog that can be happy in the house, great off switch, but has the courage the breed was created for.



Because so many people just jump in and start breeding without knowing or understanding what makes a working dog correct.....they see NAMES and hype on the internet and figure - wow - I am goign to breed this great litter and make tons of money!!!

I would say 90% of the people breeding have absolutely no clue about any of the individual dogs in the pedigrees of the dogs they are breeding....I would have a very very very hard time buying a puppy here because I am super cautious about so many individual dogs and how they show up in combos in pedigrees.....I like a certain type of dog - stable, sane, with drive but an off switch, a tad handler sensitive/biddable yet still hard in drive and then there is health to consider.....

And then there are the sport breeders who emphasize nothing but drive, don't care if half the litter is nervy or fearful as long as they get that over the top insane drive - dogs live in kennels and they never know about so much of the character...these breeders pass off the pups who have issues as "pet quality" and we all see the poor people who end up with them who are totally bewildered at their fearful/nervy/fear aggressive dog because he came from a "top breeder"




Lee


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> I would say 90% of the people breeding have absolutely no clue about any of the individual dogs in the pedigrees of the dogs they are breeding....I would have a very very very hard time buying a puppy here because I am super cautious about so many individual dogs and how they show up in combos in pedigrees.....I like a certain type of dog - stable, sane, with drive but an off switch, a tad handler sensitive/biddable yet still hard in drive and then there is health to consider.....
> Lee


Looks like we like the same type of dog.


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

Wolfstraum I can't send pm's yet because I don't have enough posts.


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## cbaird (Jun 23, 2015)

I agree with Lisa & everyone else. I have trained with a dog linebred like the one parent-close on Tom through ****** & Vito. The dog likes to fight everyone-helper, handler, etc doesn't matter. He is very high drive & not entirely clear headed. Has a tendency to be dirty-nail the helper wherever he can & not just a cheap shot, he bites full & starts shaking his head. His foundation training was wrong for the dog & now that his owner is training with someone else the obed is much better & the dog is not trying to eat him on a regular basis...but other dogs wouldn't have gone there to begin with. And they have not been able to fix his protection issues. Very much what Lisa was saying.
Candace


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

I updated my profile to display my location though.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Curious to know who the breeder is....
edit, nm, I figured it out.


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

I knew nothing about the breeder just ended up asking a few questions and she pointed me in the direction of this litter.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Though Tom was a result of his training to some degree, his progeny through ******/ Vito/ Bomber are so plentiful that a definite trend of traits exist. There is much more to this pedigree than Tom, imo, especially in the two dam lines. My complaint is the tight linebreeding on this vein, ( Tom), though I could see this as producing more moderate females than males. Not a breeding for me, but it is a somewhat complex mixture of genetics,imo.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Because you aren't able to pm, I'm asking here. Was the person that pointed this litter to you S. Hilla?


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

No but I was originally going to go through her and had some problems and ended up in contact with someone with dogs from the same line as the stud I almost got a pup from(the female I listed, his sister) and then posted the breeding here for advice.


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

Wolfstraum I tried to send you a pm but I'm not sure if I did it right. Let me know if you got it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

eddie1976E said:


> So why breed these kinds of dogs that will likely be too much for most owners? I know alot of people say they want a sport dog without knowing what goes into training and controlling such a dog. I was recently told by a very well known trainer/competitor that most of the top dogs are not suitable for home life.


Ignorance, don't care, or they believe the only way to compete is with a Mal in GSD clothing. Somewhere along the line, especially in the states, breeders have lost sight of what makes a GSD. They were never supposed to be hair trigger, hard to live with busy thin nerved dogs. Breeders have lost sight of balance.


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

Yes and that is definitely not what I want. I am glad to have a resource for opinions and advice from some really experienced GSD people. You have all been very helpful and I thank you!


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## Amber0917 (Jan 15, 2016)

I am willing to travel as well if any of you know of a breeder that might have dogs occasionally matching my needs. Anywhere in Michigan and most close states.


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