# 60 minutes



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Wonderful reporting on the elite dogs in our military with some good factual information in terms of type dogs, uses, and requirements to be successful for this vocation. As a German Shepherder person it saddens me, but was not surprising at all. The good thing is sometimes it takes reporting like 60 minutes to open up the eyes of many of our breeders. To that I say Thanks!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, a great informative segment, and Corbin is a true Hero! Sad to see the GSD isn't represented like the Mal but I do understand why. 
This site was overloaded during the show, so many people hitting on it? 
Expert military dog trainer, K9 trainer, guard dog trainer |Trikos


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I have it set on my DVR. Looking forward to watching it.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, a great informative segment, and Corbin is a true Hero! Sad to see the GSD isn't represented like the Mal but I do understand why.
> This site was overloaded during the show, so many people hitting on it?
> Expert military dog trainer, K9 trainer, guard dog trainer |Trikos


and yr opinion on this outfit? i notice they don't breed or they don't advertise it?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think it is a worthy business. Former Navy Seal and the guy has a heart, not a show-boater. 
He also takes retired military dogs for placement as K9 LE's or will place them in a forever home. I didn't get the feeling he is in it for the $ or ego boost.

Well spoken in the interview and you could tell he didn't see the dogs as equipment or tools, but as a partner to be utilized with the talents of a good K9.
Are you able to view the segment x11? Hopefully it will be on Hulu


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Here is the link: Sniffing Out Bombs: Meet America's most elite dogs - 60 Minutes - CBS News

I see a lot of working malinois who look like they have gsds bred into the lines and there are a lot of gsd x mal working dogs.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I just watched the show thanks to your post. Molly even watched part of it, she's in a small pen in our living room recovering from surgery. The Sheriff in my county uses the Malinois also.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

CBS morning news is doing a segment/ interview with Mike Ritland this morning.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for the heads up, I enjoyed that. I had a little trouble with the CBS link. Here's a YouTube I was able to watch.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=FsnPAQ137fY&desktop_uri=/watch?v=FsnPAQ137fY


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## GSD FOREVER (Apr 8, 2013)

Great 60 minutes episode. Gsd's are the very best protection. I have a warning sign at my home: "warning this property is guarded by the german shepherd protection service." I want a sign that says "hey thugs, yeah, come on in, i have a surprise for you!" 


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Unfortunately, the segment on the elite protection dogs clearly indicated that the Belgian Malinois is found to be superior these days by the military. Many of us that work in LE are aware of this being the trend for quite some time. The legacy of the GS and the reality of today's breed are very much different for the most part.


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## Rockchipper (Feb 22, 2012)

I was speaking with a helper this weekend. He has mals. He feels that they too will be weakened now that they are on all the tv shows.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

It was a good show. 

My worry is that the Malinois will become what the Doberman was in the 70's, the Rottweiler was in the 80's, and the Pit Bull is today... a breed that is sought after by bad people for the wrong reasons, and bred indiscriminately by byb's to make a buck... I foresee lots of poorly-bred, unstable Mals running the streets, ending up in shelters, biting people, and getting a bad name.

I dearly hope that this does not happen. It's really up to the breeders to be extremely careful who they sell to, and it's up to all dog-savvy people to educate the general public about this breed. They are a fantastic working dog and belong in the hands of knowledgable, responsible people who have a job for them. I would hate to see this breed get ruined!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Freestep said:


> It was a good show.
> 
> My worry is that the Malinois will become what the Doberman was in the 70's, the Rottweiler was in the 80's, and the Pit Bull is today... a breed that is sought after by bad people for the wrong reasons, and bred indiscriminately by byb's to make a buck... I foresee lots of poorly-bred, unstable Mals running the streets, ending up in shelters, biting people, and getting a bad name.
> 
> I dearly hope that this does not happen. It's really up to the breeders to be extremely careful who they sell to, and it's up to all dog-savvy people to educate the general public about this breed. They are a fantastic working dog and belong in the hands of knowledgable, responsible people who have a job for them. I would hate to see this breed get ruined!


 
Unfortunately it's already happening. After the seal team stuff and pits getting harder to rescue and breed regulation and all. In some bad neighborhoods in LA you're already seeing GSD's and such. Pits are fading out. You know they are not coming from stable dogs either.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I personally think that Mals are being used more because of their size and less because its getting harder to find good GSDs. If the military wanted, they could breed GSD and make them exactly what they want. A mal is smaller, easier to carry, cheaper to maintain (less food), and yes, quite driven. But I've also seen Mals that are less driven than my boy and after speaking with the owner was surprised to find out that there is also a show/working division in that breed.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I personally think that Mals are being used more because of their size and less because its getting harder to find good GSDs.


 

This^ Plus I'm still seeing a lot of GSD's in both LE and military.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

martemchik said:


> I personally think that Mals are being used more because of their size and less because its getting harder to find good GSDs. If the military wanted, they could breed GSD and make them exactly what they want. A mal is smaller, easier to carry, cheaper to maintain (less food), and yes, quite driven. But I've also seen Mals that are less driven than my boy and after speaking with the owner was surprised to find out that* there is also a show/working division in that breed*.


I've seen some SL's and they are a bit on the nervy side, won't leave their handlers side or get very anxious when they have to do something independently.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> This^ Plus I'm still seeing a lot of GSD's in both LE and military.


True there still are a lot of GSDs, a local police department just got two new LE dogs and they were both GSD. They didn't even consider Mals (our club donated towards the purchase price).

I'd guess that being a smaller dog there are just a lot less issues...less hip problems, dog is full size much faster so it can be used much faster (I know GSDs grow fast but not nearly as fast as Mals to get to their adult weight), I bet they have longer life spans and therefor can work for more years. Financially speaking its probably a better decision. I think many police departments will take time switching because many of their trainers are so used to working with GSDs that they probably will not want to relearn how to deal with Mals and the intricacies of training that breed.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Any one who has spent time in a military vehicle or military air can tell you that smaller is better. That being said, 99% of the military dogs I came across where all GSD's.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I believe what the man on sixty minutes said, I believe what I see today and that is the third most popular breed in world can no longer consistently supply LE/military with good dogs. Size has very little to do with why these agencies don't use GS as much as Mali's. it's the ability to work under stress and health issues. Ask anyone that trained military or police dogs why the Mali is becoming used so much. Why is German police and military using Malinois....surely it is not because they don't have available German Shepherds in Germany. For some it is hard to acknowledge what the breed has become, but for people like police/military, they don't deal in wishes and fishes, they want the best working animal they can get .....simple as that. I know one of the breeding kennels that provides the military many of their dogs, Mike Suttle of Loganhaus kennels. He breeds GS and Malinois for military uses. He KNOWS why the military has relied more on Malis than GS these days.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Our local police still use GSDs, at least according to their web site. I'm sure with the military, size does play into it. When rappelling with a ruck sac, m16/203, and a dog, I know which one I'd pick.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

OH, don't worry. The Mal is already going down the pooper. Just takes a little popularity and TV air time to ruin a breed. I've seen quite a few of the showline type Mals lately that are just as bad if not worst than the showline type GSD's people complain about. A guy just came out to our club with his new Mal he got because of his BYB GSD. The dog cowered behind the owner with it's tail tucked between its legs when the helper tried to get the dog to play with the tug. The military might have an easier time finding Mals that fit their niche because there are a handful of good Mal breeders who are producing what they want. But they too are just one TV show away from being in a worse state than GSD's IMO.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The GS has a giant population to chose from, the BM is very small in numbers, the Mals are becoming or have become the go to dog. I am not a BM fan, other than immense respect for their working ability....but it is easy to see why the GS is not the supreme utility dog anymore....not even the best sport dog in the sport that was made for them. Check out statistics when these two breeds compete head to head. As long as people have their heads in the sand ( especially breeders ) about the loss of working ability of this breed, the pendulum will not swing back. There is a reason that the breeding kennels that the military has invested in is primarily Mals. I understand the sentiment, and the emotions, but the stats are what they are.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i have witnessed arguments here on this board where people flatly deny that there are more mals than gsd in leo & mwd, cos they know someone who knows someone who works near a millitary base or police station and they seen a bunch of gsd running around.

i guess the first step in any solution is acknowledging there is in fact a problem.....but then again what problem? a good show line gsd is worth a lot more money in puppy sales and stud fees than two dozen working mals currently serving on the line.

carry on.





cliffson1 said:


> The GS has a giant population to chose from, the BM is very small in numbers, the Mals are becoming or have become the go to dog. I am not a BM fan, other than immense respect for their working ability....but it is easy to see why the GS is not the supreme utility dog anymore....not even the best sport dog in the sport that was made for them. Check out statistics when these two breeds compete head to head. As long as people have their heads in the sand ( especially breeders ) about the loss of working ability of this breed, the pendulum will not swing back. There is a reason that the breeding kennels that the military has invested in is primarily Mals. I understand the sentiment, and the emotions, but the stats are what they are.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

The fact is that for dual purpose dogs it is easier to find the ball drive we need in mals and dutchies along with the temperament for patrol work. They are cheaper and plentiful overseas. Germans have done away with DPO/WPO and sport is watered down. Those who breed for KNPV are producing what we need in general.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Thx ladylaw!.....nice to get facts on this subject from someone who deals with it daily.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

ladylaw203 said:


> The fact is that for dual purpose dogs it is easier to find the ball drive we need in mals and dutchies along with the temperament for patrol work. They are cheaper and plentiful overseas. Germans have done away with DPO/WPO and sport is watered down. Those who breed for KNPV are producing what we need in general.


I didn't even think of that but as an accountant I always follow the money trail. And that's right, the German imports have a much larger market, with people willing to pay much more for a sport dog than a police department can afford to pay for that same dog to become a patrol dog. And we all know that those sport people aren't switching to Mals out of principle rather than performance. People like to work with breed X and they'll continue to do it and they have the money to afford those good GSDs where the police departments don't. Simple supply and demand, so the police departments will go with a substitute since they don't have a strong feeling towards breed X.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Police often pay as much as 7500 dollars for dogs....go to any site that sells to police/military....like AK9 and see how much police will pay for dogs. Or better yet talk to a vendor that supplies to police/military ....you can get a good sport dog for 5, or 6000 dollars....so that is not primary reason ....sure some PD have limited budgets, but many pay top dollar.....Ladylaw gave primary reason and it is supply and demand....that is there are more of the Mals that are capable percentage wise of doing this work....so they meet the supply.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A local police department was just trying to raise $15000 to get a dog. I'm assuming an older what would be considered "green" dog. They ended up having a few very large donations and are now getting two dogs. I'm not sure how much of the $15000 is actually the price of the dog and what part is for training of the handler for the first few months, but I know a person that was offered $15000 for her "green" dog that is about to go for his SchHI this summer.

I remember a post from a while back where someone imported a dog from Germany for 5 figures...it was just a green dog, about 1 year old and clearly not trained in any type of advanced protection or even Schutzhund. The forum ripped apart the video of the dog biting a flirt pole and taking a sleeve and the person left knowing they probably over paid for the dog. Sure...a knowledgeable person would've known to only pay $5000 to $6000 but then there is a whole slew of people that think its cool to import a dog and will pay anything for it.

I once met a lady at a dog park that imported a GSD bitch. I asked her why she imported and she said she just wanted a cool/good pet. Told me the price she paid for her too...$5000. That dog was no different than my boy or any other well bred GSD you could get in the United States. She wasn't getting her because of a special pedigree, or because she was doing some sort of special work with her. She got her because she could afford to and then she could tell people that she had an imported dog. Basically, the "cool" factor. Sadly the police departments have to compete with that cool factor and as of yet, the Malanois hasn't entered that point.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Check out KNPV videos and you'll understand why malinois are the breed of choice for military/police.

There is no question that there are GSD out there that are capable of the work, but malinois are much more specifically bred for the work these days. I believe the "breed test", if that is the right term, for malinois is KNPV or ringsport which fairly directly transfers over to what is needed for a military/police dog.

There already are pet malinois out of show-lines. They are a very different dog. I hope those looking to get a malinois will go to the show lines and not working lines. That would be an ideal solution to what people are worried about.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Police often pay as much as 7500 dollars for dogs....go to any site that sells to police/military....like AK9 and see how much police will pay for dogs. Or better yet talk to a vendor that supplies to police/military ....you can get a good sport dog for 5, or 6000 dollars....so that is not primary reason ....sure some PD have limited budgets, but many pay top dollar.....Ladylaw gave primary reason and it is supply and demand....that is there are more of the Mals that are capable percentage wise of doing this work....so they meet the supply.


Lol dogs capable of dual purpose work are generally above the 7k mark. They are definitely not a cheaper option. Like Cliff says more mals capable of working to a level required by Military and LE. Size is just an added bonus not a deciding factor. I believe Mike Suttle said that he stopped breeding GSDs a while back and only does mals and dutchies. There is a message there for those who want to hear it.

That being said I think the money will keep a lot of breeders in GSDs. You cant just go out and start breeding LE quality Mals and sell them for 5k each.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Ringsport is cool, but I do not think it transfers over all that well to real life.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

SOrry, I should specify I'm talking about French Ring. Not familiar enough with stuff like Mondio to comment on that.


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## Rockchipper (Feb 22, 2012)

Well I hear the message. GSD not bred to LE/Military standard sooooo

What are the solutions then? A different breed test? More serious/civil GSD?
Cliffson do you have any ideas?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Rockchipper said:


> Well I hear the message. GSD not bred to LE/Military standard sooooo
> 
> What are the solutions then? A different breed test? More serious/civil GSD?
> Cliffson do you have any ideas?


I would love to see KNPV or a similar sport that put actual pressure on the dogs but if wishes were fishes.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

KNPV is more than sport... it prepares the dogs for K9 patrol and many of the dogs after titling will be sold for just that. Most often, the goal of the handler is to train for titles and then sell the dog to a working career LEO or security handler(crowd control at the soccer games!). 

The KNPV decoys and handlers aren't into the larger GSD structure, they prefer the smaller pocket rockets! 
I had a conversation with a couple KNPV trainer/handlers and they thought the GSD's were wrought with health issues as well as the temperament(courage) downslide. Of course that was just two opinions....
They did suitwork with a few of our dogs and were impressed with them, but I could tell they were not into working the larger GSD structure.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Rockchipper....I have proposed solutions for years on this forum....but alas there are too many people in denial about the downward trend in working abilities as you can see from this thread. But two things come to mind readily....1). Get rid of lines based on color, angulation, big heads, side gait, and sport drives, 2) minimize people's likes in breeding and encourage breeders and judges to reward functionality over aesthetics.
I could write a book on other aspects as can a few others on the forum....but I think the above would go a long way if those two things were the focus of breeders and judges.
But I really don't want to go into this discussion because it always denigrates to people getting defensive and think their personal dog is slighted. Take care.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> believe Mike Suttle said that he stopped breeding GSDs a while back and only does mals and dutchies. There is a message there for those who want to hear it.


A recent video on Mike Suttle/ Logan Haus: 

Greenbrier County dog kennel breeds the world's most elite work - Beckley, Bluefield & Lewisburg News, Weather, Sports


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## slumdawg11b (Apr 4, 2013)

Those guys were out with us for one day in Afghanistan (dog teams i mean) they said they wouldn't go out with us after the first day because the area was to volatile and too many ieds. Wtf, over. But the dogs were great to have around for morale if not Anything else. I'm glad to have my own. 

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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Here are some vids of Mike Suttle testing dogs for patrol purposes in protection, posted on another forum. This gives you a good idea about how much pressure these dogs are required to handle. These dogs are green and being tested for acceptance into his program I believe. He said these ones did really well. Apparently they get one try at this test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnFZSYndHSo&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPncb5_P80Q&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO3f7rD1GRk&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cftn_C54ULc&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A

What do all these dogs have in common?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

high thresholds --- not angry -- control after with even a nice young girl outing the dog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeLu5MBOOjU&list=UUsBwSSZg7-4FkkW1pWhuM8A


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

No matter what the breed was meant for...the pet/sport market will still drive the breed to a greater extent than the working/military/LE market ever will. There are way too many breeders that could care less if their dogs are ever working in that capacity, and the pet market cares more about "AKC champion" than "K9" when it comes to the sire/dam. Only recently have I really seen an influx of people that are starting to look for Schutzhund titles in breedings rather than AKC champions.

Cliff hit it on the head, until the breeders and judges change, not much can be done about the breed as a whole. Judges can affect a generation of dogs, breeders can do the same by pushing their studs on every female that comes into heat in their tri-state area. As an owner...I have one dog I buy every decade, and sure I can "support" a breeder by choosing to give my money to them, but at the end of the day, I'll still just have the one dog. There are of pockets of people breeding well rounded, utilitarian dogs, and its just getting harder to find them. Sad part is that it probably takes some heavy involvement in the dog world to figure out who those people are.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Tough dogs with high thresholds able to take a lot of pressure.....he wants really strong dogs that will bring the fight to the target.....in looking at this training you can see where many of our breed will not make it. He is looking for more than prey drive and rock solid nerve. Strong courage is also a necessity. The ability to punch back....I was going to get a puppy from one of his females that didn't make it with military(Javir daughter), this was a really really nice female. She competed at our trial a couple years ago. Some of his dogs are social, many of them aren't....but they work like **** or he doesn't use them....I have been to his place and seen some of his dogs work.
My post is about Loganhaus dogs and video.....these dogs represent a segment of our breed, but certainly not all of it, but we certainly must retain breeders that have some pups in a litter capable of this kind of work.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Tough dogs with high thresholds able to take a lot of pressure.....he wants really strong dogs that will bring the fight to the target.....in looking at this training you can see where many of our breed will not make it. He is looking for more than prey drive and rock solid nerve. Strong courage is also a necessity. The ability to punch back....I was going to get a puppy from one of his females that didn't make it with military(Javir daughter), this was a really really nice female. She competed at our trial a couple years ago. Some of his dogs are social, many of them aren't....but they work like **** or he doesn't use them....I have been to his place and seen some of his dogs work.
> My post is about Loganhaus dogs and video.....these dogs represent a segment of our breed, but certainly not all of it, but we certainly must retain breeders that have some pups in a litter capable of this kind of work.


I wish he had more GSDs but there is a reason he doesn't like you already stated. If there were more shepherds capable of passing his tests Im sure you would see a lot more represented. It makes one begin to consider a Mal..


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Blitzkreig....look.. I am a German Shepherd person first and foremost. There are some good dogs and good breeders out there.....it's just getting harder to find. It really annoys me that the truth about this breed has become so difficult for some to accept. I could tell people all the breed politically correct things in my posts and half the people would be happy and the other half wouldn't know the difference. Then when many are exposed to the health issues and temperament deficiencies, you start hearing all the abuse, neglect, care, diet, reasons for these shortcomings. In some cases these issues are valid, but in far too many cases the reasons for the increases in shyness, mega, EPI, spinal, spondylosis, torsion, dm,hyperactivity, lack of nerve, and hips and elbows are due to the short term and long term breeding practices. So people act like the emperor has clothes and dislike being told that breeding for aesthetic things and structural perfection has done great damage to the breed. So everyone carries on; the breed continues to slip, in functionality as a utility dog and ultimately as working/family dog. But someone has to speak to these things as loudly as the ones that promote the current culture in the breed. This certainly doesn't endear me to the mainstream, and I realize that.....but the breed culture has to fundamentally change in order for us to see the German Shepherd noble and courageous again. There are others that also see the decline in the breed, they too must speak out,IMO, or the breed will end up like the collie or poodle.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Blitzkreig....look.. I am a German Shepherd person first and foremost. There are some good dogs and good breeders out there.....it's just getting harder to find. It really annoys me that the truth about this breed has become so difficult for some to accept. I could tell people all the breed politically correct things in my posts and half the people would be happy and the other half wouldn't know the difference. Then when many are exposed to the health issues and temperament deficiencies, you start hearing all the abuse, neglect, care, diet, reasons for these shortcomings. In some cases these issues are valid, but in far too many cases the reasons for the increases in shyness, mega, EPI, spinal, spondylosis, torsion, dm,hyperactivity, lack of nerve, and hips and elbows are due to the short term and long term breeding practices. So people act like the emperor has clothes and dislike being told that breeding for aesthetic things and structural perfection has done great damage to the breed. So everyone carries on; the breed continues to slip, in functionality as a utility dog and ultimately as working/family dog. But someone has to speak to these things as loudly as the ones that promote the current culture in the breed. This certainly doesn't endear me to the mainstream, and I realize that.....but the breed culture has to fundamentally change in order for us to see the German Shepherd noble and courageous again. There are others that also see the decline in the breed, they too must speak out,IMO, or the breed will end up like the collie or poodle.


I agree but as martemchick stated money drives the breeding practices. With the SV, AKC and CKC being the registries that most un educated buyers take at face value ( I know I did up until recently ) that wont change. I was at a breeders place recently and asked why they didnt title the male they were using, he was actually quite nice. I was told that there was no real need as 99% of buyers werent interested in bite sports and were just buying a pet. All their litters are sold every year..

I guess in the long run the drift between quality dogs that have utility and glorified pets will continue. Personally I will not compromise on the quality I require in my dog but many buyers even if they do have expectations get attached to the dog and just decide to keep it issues and all. As far as I am concerned any dog / pup with nerve or health issues needs to be immidiately altered, PTS or homed to a place were they will never procreate by the breeder but why should this happen? There is no monetary incentive.


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Blitzkreig....look.. I am a German Shepherd person first and foremost. There are some good dogs and good breeders out there.....it's just getting harder to find. It really annoys me that the truth about this breed has become so difficult for some to accept. I could tell people all the breed politically correct things in my posts and half the people would be happy and the other half wouldn't know the difference. Then when many are exposed to the health issues and temperament deficiencies, you start hearing all the abuse, neglect, care, diet, reasons for these shortcomings. In some cases these issues are valid, but in far too many cases the reasons for the increases in shyness, mega, EPI, spinal, spondylosis, torsion, dm,hyperactivity, lack of nerve, and hips and elbows are due to the short term and long term breeding practices. So people act like the emperor has clothes and dislike being told that breeding for aesthetic things and structural perfection has done great damage to the breed. So everyone carries on; the breed continues to slip, in functionality as a utility dog and ultimately as working/family dog. But someone has to speak to these things as loudly as the ones that promote the current culture in the breed. This certainly doesn't endear me to the mainstream, and I realize that.....but the breed culture has to fundamentally change in order for us to see the German Shepherd noble and courageous again. There are others that also see the decline in the breed, they too must speak out,IMO, or the breed will end up like the collie or poodle.


I'm with you, Sir. 

If more people treated the GSD as the working breed it was created to be, we wouldn't have this issue. Too many people out there that are looking for a Golden Retriever in a GSD costume. "Show only" breeding, etc. is what has ruined certain segments of this breed.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

simple as this, you will get the dog you deserve. 

for the most people that buy gsd they want and buy a dim-witted safe pet in a color size and shape they find cool - and good luck to them if they are looking after their dog and have not received the poison chalice of genetic poor health. 

i for one will not be-grudge any decent person taking care of their dog just cos they have different goals to me. 

my generosity does not extend to the breeders that create these dogs just cos they know thats where the market is.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Blitzkreig.....you and many others (including some I wouldnt expect) are missing my point.....I am not talking about breeding for bite monsters. I have written more than anyone on this forum about dogs capable of seeing-eye work being within realm of excellent breeding. I am talking about breeding sound solid nerved dogs with courage and confidence. They dont have to be huge bite dogs....but sound strong nerved dogs do VERY well in the pet/family environment if they are good GS owners. We also dont want to address the fact that all owners dont want a working type dog or a dog of constitution.....thats fine but by nature that is what a German Shepherd should be. Why do we give a pass to breeders that breed dogs that can stand very little pressure without peeing, tail tucked, worried look in their eyes, and unsure of going into new places without hackles up. Why are we breeding down to pet owners idea of what this breed should be.....you can breed good strong GS and supply families and pet people too. But by nature the breed is active but should settle easily, but when somebody tells me they want a GS that will sit on the couch with them and greet everyone with kisses, I tell them that is not what this dog is and so I dont breed for it. You cant reconcile aloof and confidently standing its ground(which is what they ought to be by definition in the breed) and running up and kissing everyone which is the opposite of that. There is no reason a breeder should settle for producing sound confident strong dogs, the family/pet reason is bogus because sound confident dogs live in families all over the world. I'm sorry there are too many breeders BYB, and reputable that are breeding dogs that shouldnt be bred and hiding behind they are providing for the pet market. Rubbish!


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

cliff how do you deny the democratic right for people to make mney legally and ethically any way they want - if that means cashing in on the heritage of a breed of dog then so what?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Blitzkreig.....you and many others (including some I wouldnt expect) are missing my point.....I am not talking about breeding for bite monsters. I have written more than anyone on this forum about dogs capable of seeing-eye work being within realm of excellent breeding. I am talking about breeding sound solid nerved dogs with courage and confidence. They dont have to be huge bite dogs....but sound strong nerved dogs do VERY well in the pet/family environment if they are good GS owners. We also dont want to address the fact that all owners dont want a working type dog or a dog of constitution.....thats fine but by nature that is what a German Shepherd should be. Why do we give a pass to breeders that breed dogs that can stand very little pressure without peeing, tail tucked, worried look in their eyes, and unsure of going into new places without hackles up. Why are we breeding down to pet owners idea of what this breed should be.....you can breed good strong GS and supply families and pet people too. But by nature the breed is active but should settle easily, but when somebody tells me they want a GS that will sit on the couch with them and greet everyone with kisses, I tell them that is not what this dog is and so I dont breed for it. You cant reconcile aloof and confidently standing its ground(which is what they ought to be by definition in the breed) and running up and kissing everyone which is the opposite of that. There is no reason a breeder should settle for producing sound confident strong dogs, the family/pet reason is bogus because sound confident dogs live in families all over the world. I'm sorry there are too many breeders BYB, and reputable that are breeding dogs that shouldnt be bred and hiding behind they are providing for the pet market. Rubbish!


Cliff I am not disagreeing with you that the GSD should be a stable dog, I was using bitwork as an example as I do believe all GSDs should be capable of it. Many of which are not especially under any kind of pressure or are fear biters. I have no issue with them being used for seeing eye dogs or in any other form of work. Would you disagree that in many cases a dog that is completely incapable of bitework usually due to a temperment flaw are also incapable of being a service dog.
I value confidence, courage, drive, workability, on/off switch and health primarly in a GSD. I think a dog with the right mix of those traits would be capable of excelling at bitework, pet and service work. I have no issue with people wanting a pet as long as they provide the activity and stimulation the dog needs. I think the ideal GSD makes a reliable family guardian / companion. 
I personally value a more intense serious type dog but I have no issue with a more laid back dog as long as it has a healthy dose of the above requirements.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

I guess we also must take in mind some type of dogs are better for more specific work, a little and fast dog, easy to train with great endurance that is going to work in hot climate in middle east, either sniffing after bombs all day or taking out an enemy as quick as possible is more likely easier to found in the malinois. However there are many other jobs and places where such qualities isn´t the most important, dual purpose policedogs, SAR, securitywork etc where a good GSD is doing a great job also.

A man like suttle(or military/police) that are breeding dogs for a living for a certain purpose have really nothing to gain by staying away from the unregistred KNPV dogs, why pay more for a GSD when you have a genepool of dogs breed for the desired qualities for long. However if those dogs are better also depends what type of job and what lines you use and how well you know those lines. You can´t breed GSDs for let´s say dual purpose work and not knowing the lines well to avoid healthproblems and lack of correct workingability. Hence another reason to choose a tight genepool like the KNPV dogs that I suppose he knows pretty well. I recently talked to a breeder about a GSD combination he was planning, the stud he was going to use he had meet/owned/trained most litttermates and almost every dog for six generations behind him, still something came up that made him not choose that male, how many breeders have such personal knowledge about the dog he are going to use in breedings? 

So just because the malinois is common in certain jobs/areas there are still GSDs that are in the majority in other places and jobs. For sure there are many mediocre GSDs but what to expect when also "working" people in this breed would rather choose a "pretty" dog with decent drives compared to a better worker but who don´t have the looks to be anywhere close to what winns in the showrings today.

So in short I don´t know if I want the GSD to be like those dogs that was in suttles videos, or at least it doesn´t tell you all about the dog. Keep in mind those dogs are also in most cases comming from holland and are most likely trained on a suit both there and by his place before he test them, would be unfair to take a totally green dog and expect it to perform without preparation. The strenght of a good GSD I think should be a balanced dog,yes enough prey/fightdrive and courage, but also being able to quickly switch on his nose if a criminal is jumping over a wall, or have a certain instinct for defending himself when needed. This is not qualities we see when a very high preydriven dog have been trained to hang on a suit whatever happening around him, or is it?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Again...this discussion comes down to people that understand working dogs and those that just want Rin Tin Tin. And the Rin Tin Tin market dominates those that understand what a working dog is, and what it should be, and how it should be respected and kept that way. Whatever you want to say about the breeders that are "bending" their morals/ethics and breeding dogs for the public, you can say, but its always going to happen and the money train isn't stopping anytime soon. You can tell those people all you want about what they're doing to the breed and what they have done, I'm sure they'll be upset for those 10 seconds before they take a look at their bank account and realize that life's just peachy thanks to their dogs.

It's also confusing to me why we single out ONE malanois breeder and then for some reason think that ALL malanois breeders are like him, and yet with GSD we don't do the same. We label most of them as garbage, call the few that are still breeding those working dogs wonderful, but overall call the breed destroyed. Where as I know for a fact that my neighbor's malanois is a BYB dog, bred by his GF's brother that doesn't know two craps about working dogs. That dog isn't stable, the neighbor is proud of the fact that the dog will bite strangers without thinking, and can't come within 10 feet of my boy or he'll try to rip into him (probably won't end well for the 45 lb malanois). He's a beautiful boy, but can't take a prong correction or he'll go up the leash on the handler, and he lives in a 700 square foot apartment and doesn't get to do any type of work. Another story...I have friends that really respect the fact that I have a WL shepherd. They got a malanois 10 years ago, before anyone knew what it was. The thing grew up to be a 100 lb dog and their breeder claimed that the other two siblings both went to LE homes. The dog was truly a driven malanois, they got him because they wanted a "GSD with less fur" (I'm serious) and the breeder still sold it to them! They had no idea what they were doing, never had a working dog before, and for the first 5 years of that dogs life, they failed it! They then learned what it took to keep him occupied and now he's an alright 12 or 13 year old boy. But look at that...a breeder selling a dog to people that didn't have any reason to have it.

Fact is...there are less malanois breeders so of course there will be less malanois breeders doing it "wrong." Maybe at the moment the percentage of the ones doing it "wrong" out of all malanois breeders is smaller than that for the GSD, but the GSD has been one of the most popular dogs in the WORLD for much longer than the malanois was even known to the general public. And on top of that...considering I see WAY more GSDs than mals, on a percentage basis, I see way more temperament issues in mals than I see in GSDs...at least the type of temperament issues that make the dog dangerous to the public, and not the type that make it not to standard.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> And the Rin Tin Tin market dominates those that understand what a working dog is, and what it should be, and how it should be respected and kept that way. Whatever you want to say about the breeders that are "bending" their morals/ethics and breeding dogs for the public, you can say, but its always going to happen and the money train isn't stopping anytime soon. You can tell those people all you want about what they're doing to the breed and what they have done, I'm sure they'll be upset for those 10 seconds before they take a look at their bank account and realize that life's just peachy thanks to their dogs.


 
Do you really think that the "Rin Tin Tin" crowd would stop buying GSD's if they were bred correctly? Remember these people don't know anything about the dogs to begin with. Other than that they are pretty.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> Do you really think that the "Rin Tin Tin" crowd would stop buying GSD's if they were bred correctly? Remember these people don't know anything about the dogs to begin with. Other than that they are pretty.


Oh they wouldn't. But I think the breeders got tired of hearing horror stories of underexercised, understimulated dogs, undertrained dogs, lashing out and doing something. The problem is..."Rin Tin Tin" crowd isn't willing to put in the work a well-bred GSD takes, but they want one anyways. Not calling it an excuse...I'm just stating a reason why a market exists. I'll never support that market, or a breeder that caters to that market, but many people will.

There are so many reasons why conformation/AKC dogs are so much more popular than SchH3/working dogs, that it would take a whole new thread to start listing them all.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Oh they wouldn't. But I think the breeders got tired of hearing horror stories of underexercised, understimulated dogs, undertrained dogs, lashing out and doing something. The problem is..."Rin Tin Tin" crowd isn't willing to put in the work a well-bred GSD takes, but they want one anyways. Not calling it an excuse...I'm just stating a reason why a market exists. I'll never support that market, or a breeder that caters to that market, but many people will.
> 
> There are so many reasons why conformation/AKC dogs are so much more popular than SchH3/working dogs, that it would take a whole new thread to start listing them all.


 
And to me it sounds like breeders are not placing dogs in appropriate homes then. Not every home is suitable for a GSD weather they think they want one or not. I know you can't be 100% with your screening process but still. If good breeders truly breed for the good of the breed then money *shouldn't* be a driving factor. 

Oh one more thing, should a well bred GSD be adaptable to just about any situation? So once again why should we cater to those that want a less than stellar dog?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It doesn't matter if the GSDs come from the best breeder or a BYB, they still need the time and effort put into them. Instead of considering dumbing down the breed to cater to people who want them for their looks, why not put our collective feet down and just say no? No, you can't have certain things in life, and if you want a lobotomized GSD then you have to change your mind, period.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> Oh one more thing, should a well bred GSD be adaptable to just about any situation? So once again why should we cater to those that want a less than stellar dog?


No! It shouldn't! That's the whole point. Sorry...but a GSD cannot be treated the same way a toy breed, or a mastiff can be. I'm all for dogs having an "off-switch" and my dog has one, but there is no way he can go without a good amount of exercise and work every couple of days. You guys sure are lucky if you can keep your dog couped up for a few weeks and not have them bouncing off walls wanting to do something. They're working dogs...they need to do stuff.

I think it sucks that breeders have caterred to that market...but this is America...we get what we want and no one can tell us "NO." If someone does, we'll find someone who won't, or find away around that no. Sad fact is that each time a "reputable breeder" tells someone they can't have one of their dogs, a BYB makes $$$ or a breeder with less than stellar ethics about such a thing makes some money. That is the beauty of capitalism, where there's demand, there will be supply...quality not withstanding.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

AKC conformation show dogs are NOT more popular than SCH/working dogs.....that is a myth of the past. The AKC show conformation dog has been declining in numbers so fast for past twenty years you barely can get enough dogs in a show for a major. What is your basis for that statement? I know it can't be firsthand knowledge, where do statements like that originate?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> AKC conformation show dogs are NOT more popular than SCH/working dogs.....that is a myth of the past. The AKC show conformation dog has been declining in numbers so fast for past twenty years you barely can get enough dogs in a show for a major. What is your basis for that statement? I know it can't be firsthand knowledge, where do statements like that originate?


My club...which is pretty much all AKC conformation bred dogs. Yes, its GSDCA which is AKC, but even the dogs I see on the street are mostly American bred dogs. I'm not talking the events or the shows, I'm talking the pet dogs out there. I've only recently started seeing working line dogs in the hands of pet owners, usually they're good ol' American black and tans.

Also...I went to my region's schutzhund championship (the thing to qualify for nationals), and there were MAYBE 20 dogs going for different levels of SchH titles. I can tell you that our AKC regional specialty show/trial had about 40 dogs/bitches there (conformation and obedience combined). The AKC conformation breeders are spitting out and selling puppies left and right. Good working lines in my area are much tougher to find as the breeders are too busy training/titling to be breeding their dogs lol.

Of course it can't be first hand knowledge, I'm not worthy enough to have that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"we get what we want and no one can tell us "NO." "

I will tell you no . Have done . Look a simple repetitive thread on this forum, someone looking for , a special GSD that is extra large , passive , black and red and long coated. Bring up the standard and the importance of it for the sake of "the breed" and you get demonized because everyone has the right to get whatever they want . 
So true. 
That is one of the reasons the breed is in difficulty. The name GSD has lost its meaning because the first thing you have to ask someone is , what kind are you interested in?
Other breeds mentioned such as malinois and dutch shepherds don't have this pressure .


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Id say over 80 percent of american gsd are byb, with a pedigree. Almost all of them are black and tan saddleback, almost nobody has seen a sable like my girl.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Good working lines in my area are much tougher to find as the breeders are too busy training/titling to be breeding their dogs lol.


Maybe because they are actually proving their dogs breed worthiness and not just "pumping out puppies". But yes you could be right. My dog Heidi is actually co-owned and was supposed to be bred last heat cycle. I talked them out of ever breeding her for a couple reasons. Mostly because we are having way too much fun playing. I didn't want any down time. We are going for four different titles this year so...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

First hand knowledge doesn't come from worth...it comes from experience, but I guess if you lack that you can defer the issue by sarcasm and just say anything. I seldom see ASL dogs on the streets on, or in sport, or in work. I don't even see many competing in AKC obedience, (was at Del Valley Show couple weeks ago), not saying what you see isn't valid, but I would like to see some data to support the statement you made, or else evidence in the many places I see German Shepherds. I could be wrong, but if so it is a very well kept secret these days.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Volcano....I agree with you, but the poster specified American Show.....most of the American dogs I see these days are similar to what you see.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

martemchik said:


> You guys sure are lucky if you can keep your dog couped up for a few weeks and not have them bouncing off walls wanting to do something. They're working dogs...they need to do stuff.
> 
> I think it sucks that breeders have caterred to that market...but this is America...we get what we want and no one can tell us "NO."


The whole breed, from all the lines, is going to need more than a nice comfy couch to lay on. You're perpetuating a myth by inferring that only the WL need exercise more often than bi-weekly. The novices to the breed, from looking at your post, would think that SL or BYB is a better choice because they're going to be "easier" and that's not true, not speaking in generalities like that. 

OT: Someone came to you and said that they were going to get into the housing market because they found a house where they could carry the mortgage at the same cost as the rent they're paying now. You know from your experience (accounting, getting into the market yourself) that they can only afford their rent, and that the house will add to their expenses by way of insurance, taxes, utilities, maintenance. You're going to tell them that they need a second job or they're going to have to forget it. 

So there, you've just said, "No" and it was a good learning experience for someone who would have otherwise lost his new house. How many other people are going to lose their new GSD when they can't care for them properly? Tell the truth, tell them they can't have a GSD that doesn't act like one, lol!


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## sspellmon15 (Nov 14, 2012)

Amazing


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Espo4442 (Nov 1, 2012)

Cliff,
I'm curious...do you see many examples of what the German Shepherd was and should be anymore these days? Also, why do you think even the German Kennels aren't breeding dogs of this standard? I'm sure there has to be GSD's that are on par if not better than the mals and dutch shepherds still around.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I wasn't trying to say that ASL or SL need any less exercise than a WL, that's why that sentence didn't have any kind of lines attached to it, it was just a general "working dogs." I was trying to state that its wrong to expect any working breed (no matter how watered down) to be able to conform to a very docile life. But that's what has become expected in many households that want a GSD (or any breed of dog)...do I agree with it, NO! But I see it every day.

You're right cliff...those American dogs aren't in sport or work, but I do see more of them (even the byb type) than I do working lines. Many of those byb lines at some point came from an AKC champion as that is what a lot of people like to hear rather than SchH3. But in my area...the show ring is still much more popular than a Schutzhund trial. No matter how hard it is to get a major together, they seem to be able to get plenty of dogs at the specialty shows and even sometimes have majors at the all-breed shows.

Carmen, its wonderful that you say no to potential puppy buyers. I wish more breeders would do that, but even more than that I wish people would ACCEPT that being told "no" means that either you should never own a breed like this, or your current lifestyle just doesn't fit it. Change the lifestyle...you'll get the dog. But each time a person is told no, they'll go right next door to someone that will say yes.

In a perfect world, each one of those GSD breeders would be doing it the right way, would care where their pups go, and would be breeding to the highest of standards. I guess if that's the discussion we're trying to have, then of course I agree with all of that. But come on...look at what's going on now, I listen to "reputable breeders" every week at my club talk about their dogs and know all about Schutzhund and even AKC obedience but they don't even think about putting their dogs in there as all they care about is the show ring. That's their interest, and they will swear on their mother's graves that their champion bred dogs are just as good (if not better) than SchH3 bred 5 pedigree dogs. You can't imagine how many times I've been told that their dogs would have a much easier time working than my boy (because their rear angulation is better) without giving any consideration to the fact that their dogs just don't have the will to work in the first place.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

So knowing what you know, would you buy a dog from them with all the things they say their dogs are? After all, you are more knowledgable than first time buyer......why not get a dog from them? 
I appreciate your candor and honesty Martemchik, but as you wrote this post you really make the point that though they fervently believe what they say, it's apparent to you without the "will" to do what they say their dogs can do, they probably can't. 
My point is there are many breeders that don't know, but more importantly don't know they don't know!....although they are well intentioned folks, I am sure.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ expo44.....sure I see examples of dogs like there was back in the day, there are still breeders breeding these dogs and many of them are American breeders, some of the DDR dogs, lot of the Czech dogs, and a some of the sport dogs. They are still out there, but not as show or sport winners. Sweden has a national culture of a lot of dogs like the ones in times past.....little hint, do some research on some of the criteria the Swedes use for breeding. It is multi-faceted!


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

Interesting thread 

I have a few questions, if they don't mind for those involved in training/selecting dogs for LE work.

Has the demand for dual purpose police dogs a bigger cause for the reduced use of german shepherds than the fact breeders aren't doing a very good job ? If the military/LE were after single purpose (patrol) dogs would gsds still have their poorer reputation, or are there still too many nerve issues there ?

If the above is true it just seems a little unfair to blame breeders in general (trust me I know there is a god awful **** of a lot of them) if the demands of LE/Police have changed compared to when gs were in their peak ? With scent work and the necessary ball/hunt drive now more heavily required, the prevalenence of these traits are said to be more common in mals/dutchies than gsds ? 

quote ladylaw



> The fact is that for dual purpose dogs it is easier to find the ball drive we need in mals and dutchies along with the temperament for patrol work. They are cheaper and plentiful overseas. Germans have done away with DPO/WPO and sport is watered down. Those who breed for KNPV are producing what we need in general.



How would breeders compete with that, without compromising nerves/reducing the gene pool to only dual purpose type ? There has been a lot of threads in this forum and discussions on gsd-euro about the change in schutzhund and training techniques, and consequently the bloodlines and dogs which are now successful compared to the past when the requirements were different. How the demand now is for more ball-orientated, super high prey drive- excluding other bloodlines that may have greater nerve but may not bounce off the wall for a toy. Does it just come down to gs not being originally genetically intended for producing huge amount of scent/hunt drive dogs compared to other breeds ? so again are breeders that much to blame as changing requirements ?

Hoping those involved in this sort of work can correct me where I'm wrong. German shepherds are still a popular choice where I come from for PSD work, and my choice for myself to train.

Kind regards,

Katie.


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