# Schutzhund and Service Dogs?



## DianaM

Can a self-trained service dog also participate in schutzhund? Obviously this question assumes the dog is 100% sound for both tasks and also assumes that schutzhund would not be undertaken as a sport, nor would it be the primary goal. Is this a liability concern? Is this a training concern? This would be for a physical assistance dog (body/mobility support, picking up objects, carrying objects, etc).​


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## AbbyK9

That is a very good question.

I believe that a dog can be trained to do several things, tell the difference between them, and be good at all of them. For example, my Ronja is a Therapy Dog and knows that when her bandana goes on, we're going visiting. She also knows that when I bring out the green harness, we're going to do bite work and she gets really excited and is ready to work. The fact that she has been trained to bite a sleeve on command does not keep her from being a great Therapy Dog, nor does it make her a liability as a Therapy Dog, especially as she knows the difference in how she's dressed (bandana for visits, harness for bite work).

That said, I think ours is a very different situation from that of a Service Dog. A Service Dog isn't on duty only for a few hours, like my Therapy Dog is, but for most of the day when wearing its vest or harness. That is a lot to ask of any dog - to focus and perform all day long for their disabled handler. 

I don't think it would be confusing to the dog to also train in Schutzhund, BUT I think it's an awful lot to ask of any dog because the Service Dog work is so involved and requires so much focus on commitment, and so is Schutzhund. I think it would really tax a dog to have to do both.


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## DianaM

> BUT I think it's an awful lot to ask of any dog because the Service Dog work is so involved and requires so much focus on commitment, and so is Schutzhund. I think it would really tax a dog to have to do both.


I think so too, but I wonder if that would depend on what the service dog is expected to do and also how the training in schutzhund is accomplished and also if the dog finds all phases enjoyable. This would not be a situation where the dog would be titled at 24 months of age, pushed for every possible point, and done because it must be done. Of course remembering that the dog's first task is to be a service dog which means schutzhund ends if it affects the first line of duty. I suppose the same question can be asked of agility or rally, except there is a bit less bitework in those and safer in the eyes of John Q Legal. 

I know some therapy dog organizations prohibit anything with bitework which is why I ask. If a problem arises with a working service dog and it comes to be that the handler and dog train in schutzhund, could there be legal issues?


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## AbbyK9

I believe it's the Delta Society that does now allow dogs with any kind of bite training to register through them as Therapy Dogs, even if the dog would otherwise pass the test with flying colors. Personally, I think a dog can be good at a sport - including a protection sport - and still make a good Therapy Dog. 

Of course, it's possible that I am a bit biased on that point, considering my Ronja's training and background. When I got her, I had no idea that she had ever been trained to do any kind of bite work - it wasn't until I got a hold of the ACO's who seized her from her previous home that I got some level of information about her previous training. We have been keeping up with her bite work and obedience because she very, very much enjoys both, but I honestly could not imagine a better Therapy Dog than her. Heck, she LOVES to be HUGGED by complete strangers. As in, full body HUG. I have never had another dog who did more than tolerate a hug, but Ronja will actually "ask" for them.

AS far as legal issues go with Service Dogs trained also in Schutzhund - someone with a legal background would have to answer that. I honestly wouldn't know.


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## DianaM

Good info, Chris, and Ronja's reaction is pretty much how I would envision a TRUE GSD- able to do it all. Bitework and therapy work or schutzhund and service work, I think that is a very good test of good nerves and a clear head.  



> I have never had another dog who did more than tolerate a hug, but Ronja will actually "ask" for them.


What a sweetheart! :wub:


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## AbbyK9

> Ronja's reaction is pretty much how I would envision a TRUE GSD- able to do it all.


I agree, that's what a true GSD should be - able to do a big variety of things and able to do all or most of them well. To avoid confusion on this thread, though, I need to point out that my Ronja is a Malinois, not a German Shepherd. 

We use Ronja for public demos when we do our reenactments / living history events and people are impressed by how she goes from being friendly and pet-able to working mode. 

We do a demo where we walk her around for people to pet, then put her in the harness and give the "watch him!" command as DH goes to put on the sleeve. Then she gets to get her bite (he will run and she will go after him), he will walk her back toward the crowd as she hangs on to the sleeve, and I will have her "out", take off the harness (and have DH put the sleeve away), and walk her back around for people to pet.

Of course, this is done AFTER we give a long talk about how she is a special dog because she is now a Therapy Dog and how people should NEVER approach a working police or military dog or attempt to pet them because they will be (and are expected to be) protective of their handler, vehicle, etc.


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## 3K9Mom

Training is one thing. Temperament is something else entirely. In a litter, there are confident high drive dogs that are usually ideal for ScH, and there are the dogs that are a bit softer, with lower drives, especially those who adore people and are willing to tolerate A LOT from humans. These are better candidates for SD work. 

Excellent breeders, evaluators for assistance dog programs, service dog trainers and those of us who have done self-training for a while know that you MAY be able to make a service dog out of a high drive dog, but he's probably not going to thrive in that situation. You may be able to push a softer dog in ScH, but he likely won't thrive either. 

When I say "soft," I don't mean a dog with bad nerves either. My GSD pup has nerves of steel. He is smart, has a good work ethic, and is very trainable. But he doesn't have that great drive that makes an amazing ScH dog. Many of his littermates do. They showed it very early, and they're doing good work already. The breeder, with assistance of others who are knowledgeable, helped us select THIS puppy because he would THRIVE as a service dog. And he is thriving. He loves the work. 

Do I sometimes wish he had stronger specific drives? Yes. For example, when it comes to training certain tasks, crazy ball drive would be helpful. But my experience is that as helpful as those drives can be on occasion, they work against us and our training far more often. 

Yesterday, we got out of the car; a squirrel ran by about 5 feet away. Celo turned quickly toward it, and I told him, "Nope." And he walked with me in the opposite direction, satisfied that he had better things to do. He's only 8 months old. That was a bit of training and a lot of temperament at work.

I suppose that you can have a dog that is a moderately good ScH dog and a moderately good service dog. And actually, that's sort of what the GSD was bred to be -- rather good in a lot of things. . It takes some work (and skilled breeding) to find GSDs that are truly excellent at a particular job. 

IMO, if you want a dog that's _great_ at both, you'll almost never find it. K9 units, ScH dogs, PPD dogs... they just require stronger drives than what an SD does. 

A therapy dog like Ronja, I can understand. Ronja has a job to do for a couple hours, and then goes home. But as Chris astutely pointed out, a SD is 'on' most of the time, but much of the work is tedious -- standing around while the handler shops for clothes at the mall, lying at the airport and on an aircraft for hours, sitting at a doctor’s office while people come and go, going to work or school on a daily basis, etc. All of these situations have lots of unknown factors... children, strangers, unusual noises. We have to train SDs not just to tolerate these (which most ScH dogs will do easily), but to even avoid being too alert to what's going on around them, because they have to attend to their handler. (Aware is what we want, but alert can be counterproductive). 

Different jobs require different temperaments. Different jobs require that we emphasize different skills in training. SD GSDs aren't "less than" ScH GSDs. I think they have temperament and skill sets that higher drive dogs often don't have. Some of us are athletes and some of us are doctors... just different skill sets. 

I'm sure there are a few dogs -- in the hands of talented experienced handlers -- who can do both very well. And I'd love to meet them, especially the trainers, from whom I'm sure I could learn a lot. But I think these gifted individuals are rare.


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## Liesje

I think that would be a LOT to ask of a single dog.

Considering how vital the SD is to its owner, I would worry about doing SchH and injury. I'm not saying injury is common in SchH, but it *does* happen, and while a SchH competitor can wait it out or retire the dog and work a different dog, the disabled owner would be without a dog that performs tasks necessary for normal daily life.

Also I agree with the others about the temperament and drive being different. Not better or worse, but different. I think that many dogs can go either way as long as they are mentally sound and stable dogs, but the owners are encouraging different traits in the dogs, some that might conflict what is best for SD work vs. SchH.


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## TitonsDad

I'm going to warn you way ahead of time that this very topic got blown up in a thread of mine a while ago. I suggest holding back and biting your tongue with some of the members here and what they will say. 

Anyhow, I've come to the realization that I can only choose one or the other. I chose to do Shutzhund since Titon's owner has encouraged me to do so since Titon is one of the best puppies (German Shepherd) that he's had in his classes for a while now. He thinks Titon would do fantastic. (Titon's dad is a National SchH3 Champion from Czech.). Must be something in his blood that gives him that awesome drive.

As for the service part of Titon, I chose to do very BASIC things at home that he can help my wife and I with. Doorbell, baby crying, oven timer, phone ringing, etc. This in no way will allow him to become a certified service dog by any means. 

-E


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## 3K9Mom

TitonsDad said:


> I'm going to warn you way ahead of time that this very topic got blown up in a thread of mine a while ago. I suggest holding back and biting your tongue with some of the members here and what they will say.
> 
> Anyhow, I've come to the realization that I can only choose one or the other. I chose to do Shutzhund since Titon's owner has encouraged me to do so since Titon is one of the best puppies (German Shepherd) that he's had in his classes for a while now. He thinks Titon would do fantastic. (Titon's dad is a National SchH3 Champion from Czech.). Must be something in his blood that gives him that awesome drive.
> 
> As for the service part of Titon, I chose to do very BASIC things at home that he can help my wife and I with. Doorbell, baby crying, oven timer, phone ringing, etc. This in no way will allow him to become a certified service dog by any means.
> 
> -E


I haven't a clue where the warnings are coming from, so I won't comment on those. 

As for lines and breeding, it's not about pedigree. My GSD SDIT has the pedigree and then some: Cullen vom Haus Mansfield pedigree information - German shepherd dog 

It's about temperament. COULD my dog be a ScH dog? I'm sure he could, if you look at his pedigree alone. But it's about looking at the puppies in the litter and who they are as little creatures. What is best for them? In what jobs would they thrive? You refer to Titon's owner (I'm not sure who you are then?)... but clearly he seems to understand what's best for Titon. If he's a high drive dog, then ScH may a good match for him. We have to look at the whole picture. 

That's what I was trying to explain to Diana. She understands the GSD soul very well. We can train a GSD to do a lot, but will he thrive in that role? Shouldn't we pick the dog that is best suited for the job we need him for, if we prefer one job over another? If we want a specific dog, then is it best that we choose the job that is best for him rather than trying to push a square peg into a round hole? 

Or perhaps, is it better that we actually perhaps consider getting two dogs -- one for each job? Depending what work the SD needs to do, it may be preferable. Depending on the family's budget, this may be possible, especially if the SD is obtained as an adult (whose health and temperament are well established). 

And just for clarification, there is no such thing as a "certified" service dog.

Service dog agencies may (or may not) issue their own documentation. 

But there is no official certification for service dogs. An SD should pass a Public Access Test administered by a disinterested (or at least, objective) third party, but even this doesn't happen as often as it should. Sometimes, it's because the self-trainer lives in a remote area and can't find anyone to administer it. Sometimes, it's because the self-trainer isn't aware that this test is an option (it's a nice protection for the PWD and the public to know that the dog is truly sound). Sometimes, it's because the dog almost certainly wouldn't pass. And surely, there are likely a plethora of other reasons as well. It's not mandatory, after all. 

The PAT is the MINIMUM an SD should be able to do for public access. This doesn't include task work. 



IAADP Minimum Training Standards for Public Access

Public Access Test - Assistance Dogs International

ADI's webpage lists additional minimal standards based on the type of work (tasks) the dog does (listed in column on left of page):

Assistance Dog In Public Training Standards - Assistance Dogs International

But that's as close as it gets to certification on a national level. Some municipalities may have their own requirements. 

Anyhow, no arguments, no conflicts (this section of the board doesn't usually lead itself to arguments anyhow .... ). Just my opinion.


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## Anja1Blue

This is an interesting topic! The simple answer would probably be yes, if the dog has the necessary temperament. Having said that though, a couple of things in your post stand out. Firstly, you say SchH would not be undertaken as a sport, and since it is a sport I'm not sure what you mean by that.... the second is that it would not be a "primary goal." However, with 3 disciplines that is going to be very hard to avoid, since tracking alone can take up hours in a week depending on how far you have to go to find a suitable place to work. Someone in my old club calculated that it took 2000 hours to train for a SchH (now called VPG)1, assuming you started when he/she was a puppy. Most of the clubs in my area (I was a member of DVG, so these are the ones I am familiar with) train twice a week, and members are expected to show up and to compete in club trials. If you don't, you might find yourself on the outs with other members.......I can't speak for other places, but that's what they are like here.)

As a number of people have already pointed out, a service dog already has a full time job. Adding to it the considerable effort needed to participate in SchH I would say it's probably not a good idea...even when I wasn't at the club I was out in a park somewhere either tracking or practicing OB........it takes a lot of time to get it right, and it's hardest at the beginner level - laying the foundation is what takes the most hours. 

If you are really interested in pursuing it though, I would suggest visiting some clubs in your area, and talking to people there. Explain your situation and see what they say. 

___________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 - waiting at the Bridge


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## Liesje

I would get one dog to be the SD and another dog to do SchH. I don't have an SD but I have one dog that is my "pet" dog (and my heart dog), one dog that is for SchH, and one dog that does other performance events but doesn't have the temperament for SchH. No dog should be expected to excel at it all, much less have the drive and energy to be a full time SD *and* put in the hours needed for SchH performance.


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## Xeph

Are we talking about these dogs being mentally able to do both, or legally? Legally it is usually advised that a service dog not be involved in any sort of bite sport (which sucks, because future puppy could be great at it).


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## robinhuerta

Not sure what the reference to a "liability" is?...but I'd like to share a true story.
We know a young girl who is wheelchair bound, paralized from the waist down...who we gave a very special puppy to. She was in total need of a "certified service dog"...not a therapy dog. Angie (her story name)...needed a dog to open doors, drawers, pick up objects, pull her chair at times, "brace" her for transportation in and out of her chair, retrieve the phone, protect her, etc...etc...
And Angie belonged to our club, and LOVED the sport of Schutzhund. She asked us (because Lobo was our breeding), if we would help her ALSO train him for Schutzhund.?!......we did! He did OB on & off leash chairside, he learned to search both blinds, he had a very nice bark & hold, AND HE BIT!!..quite nicely!
Her only obstacle...was tracking. She tried herself, but found it extremely difficult.
EVERYONE who knew her, were amazed that this young girl and her "service dog"....pushed their way towards the goal of a Schutzhund title.....they had more "fans" then they will ever realize.
Sadly....Angie decided, that if "she" herself could not track the dog....then she would stop at the level she & Lobo maintained......although many of us offered to teach the dog the tracking exercise.....she never finished.....
Point being.....it takes a SPECIAL dog, to trully live in both worlds....but it is possible....just not common.
Robin


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## ladylaw203

Liesje said:


> I would get one dog to be the SD and another dog to do SchH. I don't have an SD but I have one dog that is my "pet" dog (and my heart dog), one dog that is for SchH, and one dog that does other performance events but doesn't have the temperament for SchH. No dog should be expected to excel at it all, much less have the drive and energy to be a full time SD *and* put in the hours needed for SchH performance.


 \
I agree and here is the reason. Can a stable dog do both? Most certainly. The problem is that many,many titled sport dogs are total unstable nerve bags because a weak dog can be trained to pass. A fact. Schutzhund is an arbitrary routine that can be trained. I have evaled titled sport dogs for many many years for potential police work training and wash out a bunch for temperament issues. So no, SD should not have this training because you run the risk of the handler and trainer not knowing how to properly evaluate the dog


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## Jason L

My household setup is similar to Lies: three dogs, one is a schH prospect, one trains in agility, one is just a chilled, mellow house dog that you can hug and squeeze and cuddle. I think one sport/job is more than enough for a dog. He shouldn't spent his whole day working. He should have time to relax, hang out, goof around when he is not training. And of course, like everyone said, schH, done correctly, takes FOREVER so you would also have to take that into consideration.


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## Xeph

> Not sure what the reference to a "liability" is?...but I'd like to share a true story.


I've been told that in some cases that can be treated as though they were a "concealed weapon" and it is better for the SD community as a whole to withhold from doing protection sports.

There are of course SchH titled SDs out there, but they're usually hidden away in the wood work


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## Liesje

There are some therapy dog and SAR groups that do not allow bitework trained dogs.

I think if the question is "can a dog do both?" the answer is "yes". I think there are a good many dogs that are sound and could be trained to go either way - they have the potential for both. However, if the question is "should a dog do both?" or "can we realistically do both?" my answer is "no". Too much to ask of one dog and one handler.


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## onyx'girl

I believe this is another example of a service dog/ SchH dog owned by Jason Lake. Though I don't know for sure he is his service dog:
http://www.prodogz.com/prodogz.html

At my local (AKC affiliated) kennel club, there aren't even supposed to be "protection trained" dogs on premesis. So because Karlo is training in SchH, I could not take him there to play in agility. I trust him more than my other two who have no protection training.
I think some people make too much of the protection training because they think the dog is a loaded weapon that will go off randomly....


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## ladylaw203

onyx'girl said:


> I think some people make too much of the protection training because they think the dog is a loaded weapon that will go off randomly....


 
Again, the problem is that the stable well trained dogs do not,but there are a lot of dogs with lousy temperaments being trained and just because someone trains a dog in protection does not mean they know what they are doing so you wind up with a dog that is a liability. that is why folks make rules in some fields to not allow any dogs with bitework training. Would have to evaluate them all thoroughly


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## Liesje

I agree, Jane. I think a nerved up dog is nerved up regardless of training and if you back that dog into a corner (literally or figuratively) it will bite regardless of whether it's a Schutzhund dog or not. In fact in some cases I think the bitework training might help, it gives the dog and outlet, gives the handler more control, and trains the dog how to have more control and more confidence because in most cases, these dogs are biting out of fear not training or lack thereof.


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## robinhuerta

Todays Schutzhund is primarily a sport.....not as it was designed to be from the past.
ALL dogs bite....there are countless bites reported year after year from ALL breeds of dogs, and I could bet money that if & when a dog "titled" in the sport of Schutzhund, was reported....it would be at the lowest percentile of ALL dogs/breeds listed.
Our "beloved" un-trained, un-stable, nervy dogs (any breed) cause most of the injries reported.
As for a SD being a "liability" because it has/was trained in the sport of Schutzhund....is the thoughts and actions of people who clearly should not be involved in the sport.
Schutzhund is a sport today...and it is about confidence & control.....not aggression.
Schutzhund is supposed to teach the dog confidence to work under some pressure, the ability to be under control from it's handler at all times, and to have the ability to react in threat........no where is it taught that it's ok to bite "people & strangers" at bay.
My husband is a helper for both organizations, and would never teach/condone the teaching of any dog not sound in mind, nervy or from owners that just want PP.....to bite period. That to him...is a liability. I do not have issues with anyone who "trains"" PP dogs...that is their decision....we will not do it.
We have had our dogs go to Service homes, Schutzhund homes, Show homes, Police Depts, and most important, caring loving family companion homes.
I do not understand why any responsible owner, could not or would not be encouraged to do as many possitive, mind & body stimuli activities with their dogs.....including the sport of Schutzhund?
as everyone has one.....this is my opinion....nothing more.


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## Liesje

While it is a sport I think there is a very large spectrum. I have no intention of going to any national competitions or being on podiums but even doing SchH on a fairly recreation basis, I can't imagine doing everything I do with him AND being a full time service dog. For me it's not a question of whether the dog is capable, mentally, but that I think that would be too much to ask of my dog. Not to mention the time and money it takes. I often feel like I should have tracked one more track during the week, done one more 10 minute obedience session...I can't imagine being disable and training the dog for service work or bringing a trained dog with me 24/7 on top of that and not burning out the dog. I'm sure that one or both types of work - either the SchH or the service work - would suffer. Like all sports (human and canine) I think it depends on the level of involvement/commitment and how much that might negatively effect the dog and handler. Like some kids can play soccer, softball, and do gymnastics, but some kids do gymnastics on a much higher level 4-6 hours a day. It's not that they wouldn't be good at soccer or softball instead, but there's just not enough hours in the day or energy in the body.


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## robinhuerta

Yes...it would depend on THE dog & handler/owner....one can, and another cannot....
But, my opinion is......it is up to the individual owner & dog....to honestly know what they are capable of....not a forum.
Each dog, like each individual is capable of different types and levels of things.....what works and is fun for one person and canine.....may not be possible or tollerated by another.
I would never choose to discourage anyone, from doing anything productive in their lives.....we should/will realize our individual limits.
JMO...again..


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## 3K9Mom

My understanding from folks I know that do ScH is that they don't do any bite inhibition work with their pups. Bite inhibition is something I work with on my SD pups/dogs, from day one. 

SDs are trained to never pick up (to consume) food from the ground or floor: not just while we're walking along (heck, even my beagle is trained to do that), but also when the dog is sitting under a table, not being observed by anyone. Anyone have any idea how much food is under a restaurant table? All sorts of fascinating tidbits, including about two dozen vanilla wafers at a nice restaurant -- apparently some parents brought them for their child and felt no compunction to clean up after themselves when they spilled. My pup has been trained to ignore all of that, all of the time, no matter what. 

I KNOW you can train a dog to track without doing food drops, but even Glen Johnson said that it's likely that more than half of the dogs learning tracking aren't natural retrievers and will learn tracking more easily if we use food, like hot dogs, in initial training. 

I don't do ScH with my GSDs (obviously), although we do track with one of my other dogs. But I see several lessons -- very important lessons -- that SDs have to absolutely know where the training is at odds with ScH training. Which do we train first? When do we bring in the training that conflicts? A puppy or adolescent that is trained on conflicting training may very well end up simply being a very confused dog that then washes out of SD training. The probability of a self-trained SD washing out is high anyhow. Why would anyone risk it? 

When the dog is an adult, established in his SD job, then perhaps he can manage learning conflicting training: you don't pick up food ever, except in this big field, when you're on the end of a long line. 

I know people who do rally and competitive obedience with their SDs, quite a few in fact. It's great for an SD to have a "hobby" where he gets to take off his harness or vest and simply "play" with his handler. I had started to work my last GSD in agility, which he loved. And it strengthened our work relationship because he learned to work for me at a distance, which wasn't something that we had done a lot of in his SD training. I figured that he and I would do what we could without doing the intense training because I WAS worried about injuries. 

I got myself another dog to do competitive agility with (the one we're also tracking with right now).

I personally don't think of ScH dogs as being "concealed weapons," and I understand that dogs that are trained to bite are also trained to release. But I worry about the first time that a dog that's claimed to be a service dog, that has ScH training, has an incident in public. It doesn't have to be a bite -- a simple growling or lunging incident will do. But once the fact that the SD has bitework training becomes public, there could be an uproar. 

One of the things that we discuss a fair amount in the service dog community is that we don't just represent ourselves, but every other SD team. If my dog is even slightly dirty or smells a bit doggy, the public that encounters us that day can form the opinion that SDs shouldn't be allowed in stores because they are dirty. If I allow someone to approach my dog or let them pet my dog, I need to realize that that person (and anyone else that's watching) may think it's ok to approach another team, including someone while they're crossing a busy street, someone who is using a guide dog, or a child. If my dog is poorly behaved, people may assume it's not a "real" service dog. Then the next team that walks in that store may get met with hostility.

Most people are used to seeing labs and goldens as SDs, so those of who use GSDs as SDs already meet with some skepticism often enough. The idea that dogs who are trained in bitework may be used for SD makes me nervous, not for my sake. I understand what bitework is all about. But there is public perception -- and public perception CAN drive policy. Rights can be taken away as quickly as they're given. Too many PWD before us have worked too hard to get us these rights. We need to think carefully about being so careless with them. If people think that GSD SDs are trained to bite, we've just made it hard on ALL of us that have GSD SDs.

I don't know that any sport is worth it. ScH is a sport. My service dog has my life in his paws. His job is life or death to me. No sport is worth it. And I wouldn't want to do anything that endangers the access of the two other GSD SD teams I know personally (or others here on this forum and those I don't know). If they told me tomorrow that agility or tracking or something else might do that, I'd find something else to do. It's just not worth it. One is a sport. The other is someone's life. 

Get another dog. Find another sport. There are plenty to choose from.


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## ladylaw203

robinhuerta said:


> Todays Schutzhund is primarily a sport.....not as it was designed to be from the past.
> ALL dogs bite....there are countless bites reported year after year from ALL breeds of dogs, and I could bet money that if & when a dog "titled" in the sport of Schutzhund, was reported....it would be at the lowest percentile of ALL dogs/breeds listed.
> Our "beloved" un-trained, un-stable, nervy dogs (any breed) cause most of the injries reported.
> As for a SD being a "liability" because it has/was trained in the sport of Schutzhund....is the thoughts and actions of people who clearly should not be involved in the sport.
> Schutzhund is a sport today...and it is about confidence & control.....not aggression.
> Schutzhund is supposed to teach the dog confidence to work under some pressure, the ability to be under control from it's handler at all times, and to have the ability to react in threat........no where is it taught that it's ok to bite "people & strangers" at bay.
> My husband is a helper for both organizations, and would never teach/condone the teaching of any dog not sound in mind, nervy or from owners that just want PP.....to bite period. That to him...is a liability. I do not have issues with anyone who "trains"" PP dogs...that is their decision....we will not do it.
> We have had our dogs go to Service homes, Schutzhund homes, Show homes, Police Depts, and most important, caring loving family companion homes.
> I do not understand why any responsible owner, could not or would not be encouraged to do as many possitive, mind & body stimuli activities with their dogs.....including the sport of Schutzhund?
> as everyone has one.....this is my opinion....nothing more.


Again. I have spent over 20yrs evaluating dogs for police work and have seen a TON of titled dogs who are a liability and should never,never been trained in sport along with lousy trainers who should not even think about training a dog in any kind of bitework.Maintenance training on the out is forever even on a prey dog. What you are not getting is that who is going to evaluate all of these sport trained dogs for folks prior to them becoming an SD and make sure they are stable? Not practical. The best way is to NOT put any kind of bitework on the dogs. And I agree with the last poster. I train some SD dogs and that work is plenty without adding sport to the equation. Maintanence training is ongoing on the SD dogs and that is all they need on their plate.


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## robinhuerta

I am very glad that we have the ability to train, breed, & evaluate stable dogs.....we have also been involved for many years....I am blessed that we do not have to rely on others. I will also stand by my opinion of NOT discouarging anyone to do ANYTHING productive with their dogs......even a young girl with her SD.......if the opportunity ever presents itself again.....
_You may have your topic back_.......I will still agree to "partially" disagree....
Happy training!


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## dOg

While I'll agree there a some dogs protection trained who were probably better of not PPD trained, because they aren't stable enough, if the BH is awarded to a dog who is not stable, then something is seriously wrong, and I have yet to see that in Schutzhund.

It may have happened, but not in my limited experience.

Liabilty is more IF there is a bite incident and a suit and the victim's lawyer contends the training should increase the award. Lots of folks will argue the other direction saying bitework gives more control not less, thus should decrease the chances of an incident occurring.

As for a service dog doing SchH, I would consult the trainer who did the Service dog training on that individual dog, as their opinion would mean so much more than all of us armchair internet opiners combined, it isn't even comparable.


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## robinhuerta

Lady law,
I have no idea where you are coming up with "all of these sport trained dogs".......my story is about an individual and her SD.
I don't see the "rush" of people in need of SDs....banging down the doors to have ScH trained sport dogs?!!
Point is........there ARE stable, sound GSDs that can be taught both worlds....grant you...very few could even be considered....and NOT saying that they SHOULD.
But.....our young girl and her dog....could.
Again...happy days! Happy training!


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## Chris Wild

A dog with correct temperament can certainly do both if the time and effort is put into training both. The traits needed for these two jobs are certainly not mutually exclusive, and protection training is not going to make the dog any more likely to bite someone when performing his SD duties. If anything, a dog with stable temperament and good training is going to be less likely to do so because the training provides even more judgement, self control, handler control and confidence.

Now would someone have the time, energy, money and training resources to realistically train for both? I guess some people might, but I don't see that happening very often. Both are very time intensive, and obviously the SD work would need to take precedence over SchH work since the former is a necessity and the later a hobby. But if the person did have the time, there is nothing in the training or temperament traits in either that would preclude doing the other.

As far as liability, the concern isn't that the dog with SchH training would be more likely to hurt someone, but that if the dog did hurt someone the dog with any sort of bite training is often viewed differently by the legal system than one without. And in some areas this could get the owner in a lot more legal trouble should an incident occur. Show some scary pictures of bite training to a judge or jury, and it wouldn't be difficult for a lawyer to twist things around and convince them that the bite trained dog was a danger to the public and never should have been out in public at all, much less working in an SD capacity and having access to public areas regular dogs do not, and that by having a bite trained dog as an SD the owner was willfully and knowingly endangering the public above and beyond what would be considered the acceptable risk of having dogs in public. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, it all comes down to perception.


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## robinhuerta

3k9mom,
Our young girl's special puppy was trained as a SD first....her desire & training for ScH was after the dog was nearly an adult. She had fun training him.....HE was "special". Although the dog would never be a "sport" dog, because of his SD training and life....he was capable of passing the ScH1, and making her proud to have accomplished it.
I am not in favor of making, or promoting SD as Sport dogs......BUT I am in favor of judging each individual and dog period...
I don't group people or dogs as a "whole"......and will never discourage anyone from something productive.
Many dogs are not stable enough for the training and life of a true SD...or they just don't have it in them.......same as the "sports" of the dog world.
I am thrilled to hear when any canine can preform tasks that we consider remarkable,
such as seizure alert dogs, guide dogs, etc..etc.....
And I also agree that there are many nervy, un-sound GSD being bred and trained today.......but I am also thankful, that I can recognize a good GSD too.
Thank you everyone, for letting me post "my" story...
Have a great day!


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## Chris Wild

I really don't see much conflict in the training.

As far as bite inhibition, no people raising pups for SchH don't enfoce that, but we're also not letting them run around and chew on people their entire lives either. They are taught to redirect the teeth to appropriate objects from day one. Then more discipline is introduced as they get older in terms of what they are and are not allowed to put their teeth on. Rather than be taught to never bite anything, they are simply taught that it is ok to bite certain things under certain circumstances, but not others. And they pick up on what is and is not allowed pretty easily if the training is consistent. My 18 week old puppies being raised for SchH already understand there is no biting or nibbling on people, only toys and other appropriate objects. To me this would be a complete non issue, particularly once the dog is old enough and trained enough to be performing SD work. SDs also have to use their mouths for a lot of things, so even they would not be taught to never touch anything with the teeth. The biggest difference would be that a dog raised for SchH would be encouraged to always clamp down as hard as possible, whereas an SD would be encouraged to be more soft mouthed. But again dogs are so situational that good training could easily work through this, not just because a sleeve and a phone are completely different objects the dog is asked to grip in completely different situatinos, but because the dog would be in a completely different drive and mental state in those two situations.

Same for food and tracking. Many people teach their dogs food refusal, and it doesn't interfere with tracking. The difference is that in tracking the handler is commanding the dog to track. Not difficult at all for the dog to learn that in this situation, when commanded to track, it's ok to eat the food on the track, but in other situations it is not.

Again, I just don't see the training being mutualy exclusive, or even particularly contridictory. But it would be more complicated, and having to train the dog not only for 2 different jobs but in some cases two different versions of similar tasks, would require a lot more time and a much more skilled trainer.


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## ladylaw203

dOg said:


> While I'll agree there a some dogs protection trained who were probably better of not PPD trained, because they aren't stable enough, if the BH is awarded to a dog who is not stable, then something is seriously wrong, and I have yet to see that in Schutzhund.
> 
> It may have happened, but not in my limited experience.
> 
> .


 Your experience is limited. Mine is not. We see a LOT of weak dogs with sport titles. A good trainer can get the dog to pass because it is a routine. We eval them for police work,which is NOT routine and many fold up. It is common knowledge among us who train police service dogs. If sport titles were indicative of a dog's ability to work, we would not have to thoroughly evaluate a SCH3 before we purchase for a police agency


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## ladylaw203

I would never advise someone to do anything as extensive as dog sport with their SD. That dog already has an important job and if the person got the wrong trainer,had the wrong dog for it to begin with etc etc it could be a real problem. I am not sure you all know how many lousy trainers there are out there that someone could get hold of. I am very careful advocating things in a venue such as this where many folks read,listen, never post but take what we say and run with it. I am not talking about someone buying a titled dog for use as an SD. I am talking about folks who might not do the right research into a trainer or a club, get some very bad advice and have a ruined SD and a liability. Again, I do not just arbitrarily say oh yes that would be great to a lot of things on these forums and lists without the disclaimer. So, as someone who has seen a lot of dogs and a lot of ooops happen,I would advise no. Do rally or something that does not involve bitework or get a second job and have fun with sport


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## DianaM

Renee, very good points. Your posts highlight the crucial importance of not only finding the right club and trainer but also finding the right breeder and the right dog and being brutally honest with the training and the dog. I agree with you that there are too many sport dogs out there who should never set paw on the field to begin with but there are good dogs out there and I would hazard a guess that those dogs are the ones that are not bred for sport but for the total dog. 



> But again dogs are so situational that good training could easily work through this, not just because a sleeve and a phone are completely different objects the dog is asked to grip in completely different situatinos, but because the dog would be in a completely different drive and mental state in those two situations.


Chris, excellent posts! I definitely believe a dog can adjust its bite pressure without too much ado. Renji can clamp down like crazy but if I hand him an egg he holds it very gingerly until he carries it to his crate. I did not train this and in fact we never worked on bite inhibition. Granted, I got him as a rescue but given his history I doubt anyone really worked on inhibition with him. When we play tug, he has a vice grip and when we wrestle I let him mouth me because he understands when to BITE and when to take it easy and not bite down at all. I think a good GSD with the right handling can learn the proper times to bite and just hold. Obviously, the puppy raising would not focus on squeaking every last point out of a trial but simply raising a good shepherd dog which is what I feel schutzhund was originally intended. I know the sport has changed over the years but I think a dog raised like that can earn a title but perhaps not with the highest score. But if the dog is thoroughly sound, the points should not matter; look at what striving for points is doing to the breed. 

Regarding tracking, yes the food issues would be a problem but I think that can be solved with situational training, a totally different harness, different locations for tracking, and perhaps waiting until the dog is more mature. Dogs are very situational so if a dog can learn to be "working" when wearing Harness A and knows he is a free dog when wearing Collar B, I think the dog can learn to take up food to track. Might it be a risk to service dog training? Perhaps. I do think if the handler has the priorities straight and emphasizes service duty above all, there could be success, again if the dog and the training are all right.

Thanks to all who are weighing in. Robin, I would love to know more about the girl and her service/schutzhund dog.


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## robinhuerta

DianaM,
I used to have a picture on my website gallery......she is in her chair...Lobo is in the blind doing a bark & hold on the helper! He is a sable GSL.
My site is down right now....I KNOW people saw the pic on the website...it was "hit" quite a few times!! I think most people did a "double" take! hahaha!
When I have my "info" re-loaded on our new site (same name)....I will make sure that it is on the front page.
Thanks again for letting me post "our lil story"!
Robin


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