# What type of guard dog training is this?



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

A while back I went to visit a distant relative of my husband, and it was the first and last time that I did. She had a GSD and she had to lock him up in a room before we could enter her home. Once we were inside, she let him out and he more or less just watched us. Then when we were ready to leave, she had to lock her dog up again, she said that he would attack us if we were to attempt to leave while he was loose. She said that he was trained this way. I always wondered if this training was common in guard dogs. Then a few weeks ago an acquaintance of mine said that he was attacked by a GS while visiting a friend because his friend left the room and he stood up and walked across the room and the dog attacked him for not remaining seated, he said that the owner stated that his dog was trained like this. What the heck type of training is this?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

The stupid kind.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

^^^
Couldnt have said it better myself


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Never heard of such a thing. Keep in mind a lot of people (maybe this is the case and maybe not, I'm not judging anyone) think they have a PPD that will fight an attacker/intruder and what they have is a noisy pet. IMHO


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The kind where I would demand the dog was put up behind a locked door before I came to the friend's house!


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

An untrained, un solcialized GSD, no special training, they'll do that naturally if you let them


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

This is a GSD that is unpredictable with weak nerves. This type of behaviour should not be bragged about. Ugh....

Can't help but feel bad for the poor dog. He/she just needs strong leadership & training. Not to be locked in a room when someone visits to cause more of a panic & the need to be suspicious when it's unwarrented.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Dare I say, this is also a eauthanized dog.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Then a few weeks ago an acquaintance of mine said that he was attacked by a GS while visiting a friend because his friend left the room and he stood up and walked across the room and the dog attacked him for not remaining seated, he said that the owner stated that his dog was trained like this. What the heck type of training is this?


This is bad yes, but does it have anything to do with their herding characteristic?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

ken k said:


> An untrained, un solcialized GSD, no special training, they'll do that naturally if you let them


Er, speak for yourself/your dogs! Sounds like a dog with some major issues to me. Definitely not properly trained, but perhaps something no amount of socialization can "fix". Just not a stable dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

BGSD said:


> This is bad yes, but does it have anything to do with their herding characteristic?


Absolutely not. I can't believe how often unprovoked bites are explained by "herding".


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Absolutely not. I can't believe how often unprovoked bites are explained by "herding".


Yes, I've heard 'herding' come up a lot too. Haven't quite figured out what it's supposed to be in terms of behavior.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

ken k said:


> An untrained, un solcialized GSD, no special training, they'll do that naturally if you let them


This was exactly my thinking. In both cases (these are 2 different dogs) the owners were proud of their dog, claimed to have paid a trainer to teach the dog that no one (who wasn't a part of their household) was supposed to exit the room in their presence, something about a thief not being able to exit with any of their property. I thought that this was insane. 

As far as the herding theory, I don't think so. My dog has strong drive, and he would chase anything that moved we have worked with him a lot on this, but he still can't seem to stop wanting to chase cars, however only when he was a puppy would he ever try to bite what he was chasing.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If the dog was, indeed, trained to react in that manner.... then why does the dog have bad nerves?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

gagsd said:


> If the dog was, indeed, trained to react in that manner.... then why does the dog have bad nerves?


I don't believe that the dog had bad nerves, just mean. Truly mean.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Just playing Devil's Advocate, but it sounds like a dog taught to "guard" in the literal sense. 

Non-family= bad guy.
Bad guy moves= bite

Maybe complain about the handling by the owners.... not the poor untrained, poorly trained, weak-nerved, gansta-type, POS, poorly bred dog.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Sounds to me like something said by a "trainer" who had to justify something for the money he charged and that was what they came up with.
There are other threads on this forum about people who have had the exact same issues with their dogs and have been here looking for help.
I guess it depends on what side of the fence you're looking from.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BGSD said:


> This is bad yes, but does it have anything to do with their herding characteristic?


No.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I highly doubt the dog was actually trained in this manner. Sounds like an untrained and unsocialized dog that they tell themselves is a guard dog. 

Kind of a useless guard dog if it's locked up in the room when someone comes in the house. They're not gonna wait while you go let the dog out if they plan on doing anything.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Rerun said:


> I highly doubt the dog was actually trained in this manner. Sounds like an untrained and unsocialized dog that they tell themselves is a guard dog.
> 
> Kind of a useless guard dog if it's locked up in the room when someone comes in the house. They're not gonna wait while you go let the dog out if they plan on doing anything.


The dog is kept loose all the time, they only put him into the room if they invite you into the home. Anyone else who goes in there uninvited or when the owners aren't home, I honestly feel sorry for. In my opinion, both of these dog's are walking lawsuits.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Considering how many acts of violence are perpetrated by people shortly after being let into the home (angry exes who want to come in "just to talk", the date who won't take no for an answer, bad guys posing as repairmen, etc) vs. how many people invade a home with the intent of doing violence. . . . this is a very stupid "guarding" strategy.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

Liesje said:


> Er, speak for yourself/your dogs! Sounds like a dog with some major issues to me. Definitely not properly trained, but perhaps something no amount of socialization can "fix". Just not a stable dog.



no i`m not speaking for myself, its my opinion just like your`s and everyone else, and no my dogs are not like that, although i`m not a breeder, i do have around 40 years of owning and training the GSD, and i`m entitled to make a comment without the "speak for yourself/your dogs" comment from you, everyone on this planet has a different way to train a different way to evaluate a dog


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I don't believe that the dog had bad nerves, just mean. Truly mean.


Mean is an emotion, isn't it? I thought that dogs don't have human type emotions. they act instinctly or via their training.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

My roomate pretended to fight me the other night. He wanted to see if either dog would stop the situation. My sweet lovable female, who is very affectionate with him, gave him a pretty good bite and bloodied his arm good... dripping blood


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

So my two sense is that people automatically think
I buy/adopt a GSD = I have a built in guard dog

I've heard it come out of peoples mouths several times over the course of my life. Once while at a breeder looking at pups and meeting the people a couple came in and said "we were robbed a week ago and now we want a GSD to protect and guard our home"

So we have established that if GSD's are left with no type of training and free reign to do as they please these behaviors sort of manifest on their own. Except without boundaries and limitations.

It sounds like the dog was doing what it was meant to do "guard/protect" but without any kind of boundaries and limitations from the owner. Hence her having to lock him up each time someone comes over and leaves. The owner prob liked that fact that he did this and rewarded the behavior one time and that was it.


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## webzpinner (Mar 7, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Mean is an emotion, isn't it? I thought that dogs don't have human type emotions. they act instinctly or via their training.


Actually, a study done by a State University in California discovered that dogs show an emotional range similar to an human baby. They feel basic emotions such as anticipation, trust, comfort, anger, fright, scared, and sad/depressed. More advanced emotions: love, jealousy, remorse, disappointment, and contempt are beyond dogs. 



hunterisgreat said:


> My roomate pretended to fight me the other night. He wanted to see if either dog would stop the situation. My sweet lovable female, who is very affectionate with him, gave him a pretty good bite and bloodied his arm good... dripping blood


That's imprinting the idea in the dog that your roommate is a questionable person, and NOT a good idea. GSD's have a looooong memory for such things. It's "funny" now, but if sometime the two of you are in an heated argument and he throws his arms up in frustration, the dog could mistake that as a threat and attack. BIIIIIG lawsuit and a euthanized dog. Not a good outcome.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Mean is an emotion, isn't it? I thought that dogs don't have human type emotions. they act instinctly or via their training.


Where did you get that idea from? I don't know about your dogs but mine are not robots.My dogs like some people and dislike others. They get excited when I walk in the door, my dog was depressed after his surgery, if I pay more attention to one-they will get JEALOUS of each other, and push each other away from me to be in the front and center. Why do you think many breeders match dogs to their owners? If they were all the same this wouldn't be necessary. All GSD's could qualify to be K9's as well because they'd all just need training and be good to go. There would be no such thing as nervous dogs because that is an emotion as well. No dogs with fear issues. That is one of the funniest things that I have ever heard.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> My roomate pretended to fight me the other night. He wanted to see if either dog would stop the situation. My sweet lovable female, who is very affectionate with him, gave him a pretty good bite and bloodied his arm good... dripping blood


Not a good idea, not in front of a GSD, my boy doesn't put up with it either-we had a similar experience with him.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> My roomate pretended to fight me the other night. He wanted to see if either dog would stop the situation. My sweet lovable female, who is very affectionate with him, gave him a pretty good bite and bloodied his arm good... dripping blood


:hammer: WOW!

Hope your friend went to the doctor because dog bites need to be treated properly or they can get infected. Also when your friend goes to the doctor they will have to notify AC that your dog bit him. Now your dog has a bite record. Also, now your dog is probably not safe around your friend. If she was worked up enough to seriously bite(cause bleeding) your friend that does not go away with a GSD. My brother was wrestling around with my GSD and by accident made him yelp. It took a few months of work before he would go near my brother.

I hope you are blowing smoke if not you need to be more responsible.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

stupid is complimentary compared to what it really
is. i also think the owner is choice for having
a dog trained that way.



Emoore said:


> The stupid kind.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

why would you do something that dumb????



hunterisgreat said:


> My roomate pretended to fight me the other night. He wanted to see if either dog would stop the situation. My sweet lovable female, who is very affectionate with him, gave him a pretty good bite and bloodied his arm good... dripping blood


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

You know...for me my dog is a visual aid. It is to me, much more intimidating if I have a calm dog who listens to me and watches the visitor/traveling salesman/religious person etc.

Better yet if she knows the visitor...come up all sweet and lovey dovey.
I don't want to put her in that position of a "fake fight"


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm sorry, Hunter, but I have to agree with everyone that it was a stupid move and very irresponsible. If your roommate is someone who is normally around and non threatening, I'd question your female's ability to judge true threats from fake ones unless your roommate is an exceptional actor. She should have been conflicted about going after someone that lives with her. I hope real damage wasn't done to her and her training.


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm not even touching the aggression upon entering.:surrender: With the fact that the dog is trained to attack someone leaving so they cannot steal valuables...if the dog is trained to attack someone entering, and someone enters and has made it to the point that they are about to leave with their property, unfortunately the dog is most likely dead or seriously injured.  Training the dog to attack someone leaving the house is just begging for problems.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

ken k said:


> An untrained, un solcialized GSD, no special training, they'll do that naturally if you let them


Pretty sure you get a lot of disagreement on that last statement.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

ken k said:


> no i`m not speaking for myself, its my opinion just like your`s and everyone else, and no my dogs are not like that, although i`m not a breeder, i do have around 40 years of owning and training the GSD, and i`m entitled to make a comment without the "speak for yourself/your dogs" comment from you, everyone on this planet has a different way to train a different way to evaluate a dog


er, isn't that what speak for yourself means ???


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> My roomate pretended to fight me the other night. He wanted to see if either dog would stop the situation. My sweet lovable female, who is very affectionate with him, gave him a pretty good bite and bloodied his arm good... dripping blood


After how many beers? That's one real intelligent roommate.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Exactly. GSDs naturally attack (unprovoked) anyone that tries to leave? Um, OK.... glad mine are not "natural" then....


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

PaddyD said:


> After how many beers? That's one real intelligent roommate.


LOL... seriously. I'm really hoping that was a joke.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

thats REALLY stupid and dangerous. Thats not training. Thats a neglect to train and socialize properly.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I reread my post and made sure that I had mentioned that the GS had to be put up before you entered the home and upon one exiting the home. I would think that an untrained dog that was not socialized would attack you once let out of the room and upon seeing you in their home. This dog came out of the room and just watched us-it was rather eerie. Then when we stated we were leaving-that's when the owner said not to make a move to leave until she had confined him, lest he attack us-as he was trained to do. I have observed a few unsocialized dogs before, and they generally do not want you in their "territory" period. not just upon entering and exiting. I am confused by the whole thing. Could these dogs indeed have been trained like this? What trainer would teach something like this? One dog trained this way was from Ohio, the other from New York-is this a common training? Or do the owners themselves do this?


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I can't imagine why unless it was an impound lot dog.
I wouldn't want a house dog to act like that.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

This reminds me a little bit of a dog my next door neighbors had... She was an American Eskimo dog, and she was ok if you were in the house but even with people she knew (including me even though I was there almost daily) she would attack your ankles/legs whenever you tried to go in OR out the door. It wasn't something she was trained to do. She was a very high strung dog.




hunterisgreat said:


> My roomate pretended to fight me the other night. He wanted to see if either dog would stop the situation. My sweet lovable female, who is very affectionate with him, gave him a pretty good bite and bloodied his arm good... dripping blood


A friend of mine and I did that once, I was pretending to attack her and her dog (BTW it was a friendly Lab mix not a GSD) ran over and jumped on me and nipped... At the time we thought it was kinda funny though because then my friend turned around and pretended to attack me, and the dog jumped and nipped at me again.  
Yeah I know it's not very smart (we were kids at the time.)


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

My old roomate (Hundreds of years ago) acted like he was going to hit Loki's foster mean kitty and Loki got a bit upset with him. Didn't bite him but pushed him back into his bedroom and blocked his path.

Yep, over a mean little black mamba kitten.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Where did you get that idea from? I don't know about your dogs but mine are not robots.My dogs like some people and dislike others. They get excited when I walk in the door, my dog was depressed after his surgery, if I pay more attention to one-they will get JEALOUS of each other, and push each other away from me to be in the front and center. Why do you think many breeders match dogs to their owners? If they were all the same this wouldn't be necessary. All GSD's could qualify to be K9's as well because they'd all just need training and be good to go. There would be no such thing as nervous dogs because that is an emotion as well. No dogs with fear issues. That is one of the funniest things that I have ever heard.


Unfortunately, many people exhibit some use of the following - _*an·thro·po·mor·phism* the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, *animal*, or object_.

And the closer they are to their dogs, it seems that the more common it occurs at least in the people that I have seen. One very visible example of this is when an owner dresses their dog up.

The reaction of dogs to various stimuli depends on their basic genetic instincts and whatever training that they have to modify this behavior. Can we breed for different amounts of various doggy instincts, of course. 

Do you really think that a dog "thinks" of fear in the same way that humans do? With the understanding of "the future" that most humans do? Dogs will react to the current situation with the instinct of self and pack preservation.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

codmaster said:


> And the closer they are to their dogs, it seems that the more common it occurs at least in the people that I have seen. One very visible example of this is when an owner dresses their dog up.


You talkin' 'bout *me*????


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Unfortunately, many people exhibit some use of the following - _*an·thro·po·mor·phism* the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, *animal*, or object_.
> 
> And the closer they are to their dogs, it seems that the more common it occurs at least in the people that I have seen. One very visible example of this is when an owner dresses their dog up.
> 
> ...


There's one born every second.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

gagsd said:


> You talkin' 'bout *me*????


LOL! Is that a herding hat or a party hat?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> The kind where I would demand the dog was put up behind a locked door before I came to the friend's house!


No kidding...


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

gagsd said:


> You talkin' 'bout *me*????


I don't dress my dogs up, so maybe he was talking to you-LOL. I love that pic of your dog-great hat.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> There's one born every second.


 
Heh! Heh!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gagsd said:


> You talkin' 'bout *me*????


Nope - very cute!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Codmaster, do you own a dog?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

That topic sort of like reminds me of the one over at the other forum. Both make my brain hurt... seriously, how can people be that stupid.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not believe a dog can be _mean_.

Scared, unsocialized, reactive, yes. Mean, no. I think there is a disease maybe a bit of epilepsy that is rage syndrome, but that is not mean, just a disease. 

I think that most of the noise dogs make, growling, barking, lunging, snapping, snarling, barking are mostly them trying to chase away a threat. 

I think that often when a dog bites with none of these, they are still very fearful, just more fearful of the noise making growling, barking, snapping, snarling, etc. and they bite out of desperation. 

I think we create dogs that we then label mean. I think that is unfortunate. 

Dogs have a range of emotions that I do not think are quite human, but are similar in in some ways deeper more raw than what we feel: Lonliness, fear, excitement or anticipation, trust/loyalty/devotion, jealousy. 

I do not know that all dogs can be rehabilitated. I think it is awful what people do to dogs.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> I do not believe a dog can be _mean_.
> 
> Scared, unsocialized, reactive, yes. Mean, no. I think there is a disease maybe a bit of epilepsy that is rage syndrome, but that is not mean, just a disease.
> 
> ...



I think what many people forget is that dogs are animals. If a Leopard attacks a human everybody says "It's a Leopard being a Leopard." now if a dog would do the same thing we say it's dangerous and should be put down. 

A dog is a dog is a dog and dogs are animals, just like Leopards. Only difference is that we have domesticated them for hundreds of years and humanize them without realizing what they really are. 

Dogs are just as much predators as Cats or Leopards, or Snakes. If a cat bites or scratches us it can be just as dangerous because of all those bacterias. 
I know people that lost a hand or an arm due to blood poisoning from a cat bite. 

If we keep in mind that they are, while domesticated, animals things would run a lot smoother.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> If we keep in mind that they are, while domesticated, animals things would run a lot smoother.


I completely agree. My personal view of working with animals, is that anything that goes wrong is ALWAYS the fault of the human. We're the ones that took the animal out of their natural habitat. We're the ones that bred them and domesticated them. We're the ones that expect them to learn to live in a completely unnatural way, and abide by our rules. If the animal (dog, cat, horse etc) is having trouble with this, the responsibility always falls on the human.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Thats just a lawsuit waiting to happen.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Whiteshepherds said:


> LOL! Is that a herding hat or a party hat?


That was his "elf" costume for Halloween.
I think this year he will go as a "police dog".

I think it was Mrs. K who reminded us that dogs are animals and sometimes do animal things. It is natural. 

_German Shepherds should have aggression..... it is not a four-letter word.
_They should also be protective.
Now to what extent, and how it is allowed and developed, depends on genetics and training.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

German Shepherds should have aggression..... it is not a four-letter word.They should also be protective.
Now to what extent, and how it is allowed and developed, depends on genetics and training.[/quote]


Thank you Gagsd for saying this, I whole heartedly agree. I can't stand when someone has a GSD and expects him to behave like a poodle. As a matter of fact I am going to address this issue in a new thread.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> German Shepherds should have aggression..... it is not a four-letter word.They should also be protective.
> Now to what extent, and how it is allowed and developed, depends on genetics and training.



Thank you Gagsd for saying this, I whole heartedly agree. I can't stand when someone has a GSD and expects him to behave like a poodle. As a matter of fact I am going to address this issue in a new thread.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say they should have aggression. I'd say they should have defensive drive... more specifically, they should react to a challenge with a defensive response rather than avoidance or submission. The defense shouldn't come out as appropriate though


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Thank you Gagsd for saying this, I whole heartedly agree. I can't stand when someone has a GSD and expects him to behave like a poodle. As a matter of fact I am going to address this issue in a new thread.


I wouldn't say they should have aggression. I'd say they should have defensive drive... more specifically, they should react to a challenge with a defensive response rather than avoidance or submission. The defense shouldn't come out as appropriate though[/QUOTE]

Yes, but defensive drive is a level of aggression. A docile dog has none of this. Just my opinion.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Yes, but defensive drive is a level of aggression. A docile dog has none of this. Just my opinion.


aggression is offensive, which is not the same as defensive


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

IMO a good GSD has aggression and fight, not *just* defense. But I personally prefer dogs with a higher threshold than some. I have a high defense dog who responds to threat with a good deal of fight but he has a higher threshold. I take him to my office, to parades and public events, to my husband's elementary school for a dog trick demo, to the pet store, to family outings, etc and he is happy and safe. He would never just attack someone for walking out my front door. The level of defense and fight should be appropriate for the level of threat. A friend that I've invited over is *not* a threat to me or my dog, and neither is them coming in the door or going out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> I think what many people forget is that dogs are animals. If a Leopard attacks a human everybody says "It's a Leopard being a Leopard." now if a dog would do the same thing we say it's dangerous and should be put down.
> 
> A dog is a dog is a dog and dogs are animals, just like Leopards. Only difference is that we have domesticated them for hundreds of years and humanize them without realizing what they really are.
> 
> ...


A leopard is a leopard, a mountain lion is a mountain lion. But when a mountain lion attacks a jogger, they go and shoot the mountain lion. It is not normal for mountain lions to attack humans -- they usually avoid humans. Unless they are protecting their young, or they are not right. 

They avoid us and usually it is enough to make attacks very rare.

Now a domestic animal is chosen and bred to be managed by humans and unprovoked attacking of humans is an indicator that something is seriously wrong. Something either in the breeding, in their nerves, or in the handling of the animal. 

Yes, you can have a dog from puppy to death and never be bitten by that dog. And that is how it should be. And in most cases, the dog should not bite anyone else. 

I do not know if we should become more understanding as to the fact that these are animals and accidents will happen. I understand that this is true, but I am afraid that with more license for animals being animals, ignorant owners will tally up more and more bites, and more and more dogs with poor nerves will be bred and reproduce. I think that if people felt that the world would not come to a crashing halt if their dog bit someone, they would not be as careful. 

Yes, when you work with dogs, vet, groomer, boarding kennel, trainer, you might in the course of you work be bitten.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> IMO a good GSD has aggression and fight, not *just* defense. But I personally prefer dogs with a higher threshold than some. I have a high defense dog who responds to threat with a good deal of fight but he has a higher threshold. I take him to my office, to parades and public events, to my husband's elementary school for a dog trick demo, to the pet store, to family outings, etc and he is happy and safe. He would never just attack someone for walking out my front door. The level of defense and fight should be appropriate for the level of threat. A friend that I've invited over is *not* a threat to me or my dog, and neither is them coming in the door or going out.


I have a dog exactly fitting that description. We differ in what words we use to describe that behavior. Responding to a challenge with a return challenge is defense in my eyes. Attacking something that is not threatening is aggressive behavior or fight drive in my eyes with a caveat. hard to tell without seeing it, and even harder with the grey definitions of fight drives. A guard dog or ppd should operate more in defense. A police dog should operate more in fight drive


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Grey is right, I guess. I would never label an unprovoked attack as "fight drive". To me it sounds more like the dog is unstable. I see defense as what happens up to the point where the dog bites, and fight is what happens once the dog is on the man/sleeve/suit/whatever. A lot of dogs are high prey or high defense and love to bark and bite but don't really have much fight or power behind it.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I may be getting this wrong, but I have heard "social aggression" in the GSD defined as the dog who is actively looking for a fight, just because.
He wants to be the head honcho and is willing to bust heads (anybody's) to show it.

Screw loose? Maybe.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Grey is right, I guess. I would never label an unprovoked attack as "fight drive". To me it sounds more like the dog is unstable. I see defense as what happens up to the point where the dog bites, and fight is what happens once the dog is on the man/sleeve/suit/whatever. A lot of dogs are high prey or high defense and love to bark and bite but don't really have much fight or power behind it.


Very recently, a world level schutzhund trainer and competitor explained it to me this way. Prey will make the bite happen, defense will make it a full hard bite that won't let up. A pure prey bite is the weak bite you described. The second you introduce defense by locking eyes, squaring of, cracking a whip, etc, the intensity if the bite goes way up. Fight is willingness to engage a non-threat (a running perpetrator. A guy that isn't making threats that the dog understands, but thehandler wishes to be bitten). To the naive eye, that looks the same as aggression (inappropriate aggression to be clear). If thedog was told to bite, it *was* a provoked, albeit by the handler, bite. That's fight in my eyes. You would never have fight without defense, but I think you could have defense without fight.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

World level or not there's a few things I really don't agree with. I've seen some dang full, hard prey bites and some nippy defense bites with no follow up. I absolutely do not believe that a dog must bite unprovoked in order to show fight drive. There's a difference between fight drive and simply picking a fight.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> I may be getting this wrong, but I have heard "social aggression" in the GSD defined as the dog who is actively looking for a fight, just because.
> He wants to be the head honcho and is willing to bust heads (anybody's) to show it.
> 
> Screw loose? Maybe.


Social aggression to me, is a dog that has fight drive for any human. They don't seek affection or really care much for strangers. That does not mean he will bite people for no reason IMO


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> World level or not there's a few things I really don't agree with. I've seen some dang full, hard prey bites and some nippy defense bites with no follow up. I absolutely do not believe that a dog must bite unprovoked in order to show fight drive. There's a difference between fight drive and simply picking a fight.


Compare how a lion kills a baby gazelle, and how it attacks a hippo or elephant. The latter has defense where the prior is pretty much prey only.
Fight drive is willingness to bring the fight because he wants to fight. Defense is a threat response

None of the drives fit perfectly into our fabricated compartments except prey. They others all blur together


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't care about lions. I disagree with this:



hunterisgreat said:


> *Attacking something that is not threatening* is aggressive behavior or *fight drive* in my eyes


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't care about lions. I disagree with this:


I should have been clearer in what I meant. How about:

Being told to bite something regardless of threat or no threat and willingness and desire to do so is fight drive

Biting something of no threat without being told is inappropriate aggression

Biting something threatening with or without being told is defensive drive

The above can and do overlap as multiple drives can mbe exhibited at once


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I should have been clearer in what I meant. How about:
> 
> Being told to bite something regardless of threat or no threat and willingness and desire to do so is fight drive
> 
> ...


I'd like to add that any dog that does not meet these qualifications (minus the second one) will never be a suitable guard dog. And any dog that bites without a threat being present is a lawsuit.


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## rebelsgirl (May 19, 2005)

> This is a GSD that is unpredictable with weak nerves.


I have to agree with the above quote. I have a dog like this. If she doesn't know you, and you move quickly, she will lunge and bark, hackles raised. She hasn't bitten anyone but she could.

I have to put her away when new people come over, if I let her out, I have to tell people not to move with quickness, they have to move slowly, getting up, leaving a room or entering. Even hand gestures have to be curtailed.

Once she gets to know them, she is fine, but it takes awhile. 

She has been to obedience classes over the last year. She can't go anymore. I wish there was somewhere close I could take her and train her that understood dogs like her. She is a smart dog, but she is genetically compromised.

The only thing I can do is control the situation, by taking her out of it, or making sure she is leashed when she is around people she doesn't know. But I would never put her to sleep.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> Being told to bite something regardless of threat or no threat and willingness and desire to do so is fight drive


I still disagree. We have a few dogs in our club with nice fighting drive and they've never have been and never will be sent to bite something passive/no threat. That's like PPD work, IMO. Not something I am personally comfortable with and certainly not something I feel is necessary to observe or evaluate a dog's fight drive. Quite the contrary, I want to see a dog fighting back something that's actually fighting him! I want to see the dog take control and show his power and aggression when a real, physical threat is being applied.

IMO, being told to bite something/someone with no threat is just stupid.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Do we think that our dogs really want or like to fight? 

I am not talking about the bite sleeve, that can be a huge game to dogs. But I mean truly fight?

I know dogs use a lot of body language and verbalizations to avoid confrontations amongst themselves. 

I would think that a dog out looking for a fight, would be an odd thing in a shepherd.

ETA: Nothing wrong with a dog giving all he has when the threat is present and the fight comes to him.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I still disagree. We have a few dogs in our club with nice fighting drive and they've never have been and never will be sent to bite something passive/no threat. That's like PPD work, IMO. Not something I am personally comfortable with and certainly not something I feel is necessary to observe or evaluate a dog's fight drive. Quite the contrary, I want to see a dog fighting back something that's actually fighting him! I want to see the dog take control and show his power and aggression when a real, physical threat is being applied.
> 
> IMO, being told to bite something/someone with no threat is just stupid.


I believe we agree on behavior, just differ in our definition of defensive drive. Fighting back and showing aggression to an genuinely applied threat is defensive drive by my definition. The willingness to engage in the exchange in the first place, is fight drive by my definition. Suppose a dog that is hesitant to bite unless really pressured, then he becomes a lion in his response. That is a high defense, low fight dog, in my definitions of the words


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The way the dog is trained to "protect" is NOT the right way to train a dog and that isn' what the dog should be doing.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

selzer said:


> Do we think that our dogs really want or like to fight?
> 
> I am not talking about the bite sleeve, that can be a huge game to dogs. But I mean truly fight?
> 
> ...


Yes, there are dogs that like to fight. Most of these dogs have a inner calm..... a self-assurance...... that makes them different just to meet.

These are not the barking, lunging, hackling aggressors-- but they exhibit a great joy at the opportunity to kick some rear. The ones I have met have been kind of "Cool Hand Luke" until they get the chance to show otherwise.

Some of them ( I have been told) can also be difficult to live with, pushing the envelope, always testing the limits. I have not met one of those types.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

If you think about it, defense is all about self preservation. Fighting back is one way to preserve oneself. Another way is avoidance, and another submission, both of which we want to avoid. You can have a dog that will kill you if you threaten him and force a defense that will avoid a confrontation at all costs


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

selzer said:


> Do we think that our dogs really want or like to fight?
> 
> I am not talking about the bite sleeve, that can be a huge game to dogs. But I mean truly fight?
> 
> ...


Some dogs do like to fight, Police K9's for example. A criminal running from the police has done nothing wrong personally to the dog, yet when commanded to that dog will chase and take that person down. Most K9's do not even want to wait for the command to go get em, they are making all kinds of vicious, sounds in desperation to get the bad guy, they are pulling something crazy on the leash. They sure look to me like they are quite eager to engage in a fight.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But they are trained for that. Good things happen when they bring down the bad guy. They get all kinds of praise and a play with their toy. Awesome. This is their fun thing they do with their owner. Their job. 

If that was not the make up of their life and experiences, would they want to do that?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Interesting question. My initial thought would be most would not like to fight (too dangerous to them and it would be an instinct to preserve the species), but I also think that some individual dogs would be apt to like to fight. Probably a higher percentage of these would be found in the dog species that have been selectively bred to fight or maybe even those bred to track and/or hunt dangerous game.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

selzer said:


> But they are trained for that. Good things happen when they bring down the bad guy. They get all kinds of praise and a play with their toy. Awesome. This is their fun thing they do with their owner. Their job.
> 
> If that was not the make up of their life and experiences, would they want to do that?


Yes. They are not taking street bites for a toy and a game of tug.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Yes. They are not taking street bites for a toy and a game of tug.


Yeah I agree. From what I've seen of police k9s, they couldn't give a rip about a tug, food, or handler praise when they go after a bad guy. It's all about biting and fighting. It's competition, an "I wanna beat you" attitude. It's like boxing and MMA for guys, they want to be better than the guy they're facing, they just love the fight itself. People can recognize that type of attitude in a dog, and then breed for it and hopefully get some consistency in the drive.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that it starts out with encouraging the behavior, praising it, building the drive, rewarding with the toy, etc. I think at some point, the game surpasses the praise and treats. 

Otherwise, you would have untrained dogs that chase down and attack everything that moves. And only trained dogs would be able to maintain their calm in the home and in public. 

This is just not the case. A dog like that is generally considered to have bad nerves or to be wired wrong.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

selzer said:


> I think that it starts out with encouraging the behavior, praising it, building the drive, rewarding with the toy, etc. I think at some point, the game surpasses the praise and treats.
> 
> Otherwise, you would have untrained dogs that chase down and attack everything that moves. And only trained dogs would be able to maintain their calm in the home and in public.
> 
> This is just not the case. A dog like that is generally considered to have bad nerves or to be wired wrong.


Sue, I promise, there are dogs that LOVE to fight--- that are also super house dogs, take anywhere dogs--- with no "training."

I _think,_ that maybe my young male is one of these. Certainly not the best dog ever--- but very, very nice. 
Loves to engage the helper, strong "rip your arm off" bite; but also a dog that I can take trick-or-treating in a busy neighborhood with weirdly dressed shrieking children.
He is the nicest GSD I have ever owned or had in my house. And he has been that way since he toddled around my den.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

selzer said:


> I think that it starts out with encouraging the behavior, praising it, building the drive, rewarding with the toy, etc. I think at some point, the game surpasses the praise and treats.


It's not a game. You cannot train or "build drive" that isn't there, just can't. You CAN have dogs with low threshold/low trigger and/or weak nerves or a whole bunch of problems but the extent to which a dog will continue to engage a threat is genetic. I have never once used a toy or made a "game" out of doing suspicion work, suit work, more "street protection" type scenarios with my dog. It is not something you can (or should have to) convince a dog to do. It's just in him or not.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I googled how are guard/K9 puppies chosen and one of the main things that came up was-AGGRESION. The pup has to show that he has fighting drive. Then the pup is taught what to channel this aggression toward. A pup who does not display this characteristic would never be selected for this type of work, it is either in his genes or it isn't.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Klamari said:


> It's like boxing and MMA for guys, they want to be better than the guy they're facing, they just love the fight itself.


And girls. 

<----Lady boxer here


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Emoore said:


> And girls.
> 
> <----Lady boxer here


Does your pretty lady have plenty of fight drive? I like that one, Lady boxer.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Does your pretty lady have plenty of fight drive? I like that one, Lady boxer.


I am the lady. Not sure if I'm that pretty or not, but yeah, I've got some fight drive. I've had a few matches.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I am the lady. Not sure if I'm that pretty or not, but yeah, I've got some fight drive. I've had a few matches.


hahaah-that is the least thing that I expected you to say. Good for you. Now I am curious were these street fight matches or are you a professional boxer?


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