# I'm not sure if this is possible/a good idea...



## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Do you think a dog could be trained just for the bark and hold aspect of ipo?

The dog I would consider this for is pretty low drive (I got her mostly to be a best friend and didn't want to get in over my head with a really high drive dog). I don't plan to train her in ipo because of her lower drive and because I think she might actually be well suited to therapy work (a lot of local organizations won't let a dog who has any bite training do therapy work). However, I frequently end up walking her after dark due to my schedule and, while I don't really think anyone would mess with us simply because she's a gsd, it would be comforting to know that I could ask her to bark in the intense continuos way of the bark and hold (ie not just looking at me and offering up a single bark for a "speak" command) if I ever felt threatened.

Do you think this is possible or just a really bad idea? I know my knowledge of ipo is really limited, but I was just watching the local club practice and thought this would be super awesome to be able to do.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

It's not a bad idea, but it is improbable based on the ways I've seen training handled. I've wanted the same deterrent for a long time, for the same reasons. Granted, my schutzund-related experience is limited to spectatorship and videos, but from the few visits to clubs I've made the dogs are focused on the person with The Sleeve, and the vocalization comes from intense drive to obtain said Sleeve. John T Smith out there in the wild blue yonder is not likely to be walking about attempting to lure in vulnerable ladies with a full bite sleeve on... although that sure would make it easier to identify potential creepers!

That said, there are very likely to be _other _ways to train than the limited methods I've been seeing. I'm riding your coattails here to see for myself what shenanigans my crew and I can get up to. I doubt a dog without much drive would care enough to put on a good show either way, though.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Training an alert bark is absolutely possible.
You will however fprobably find that training this sort of bark on your own won't work. While it's possible for an owner to train what is essentially a "speak" command that involves strong, consistent barking rather than just a single bark or two, the dog won't direct it at who you want it directed at in the circumstances you'd want to use it in real life because the dog's understanding of the exercise and motivation/mental state surrounding a "speak" won't transfer to that situation. You'd need to get the help of a trainer, one familiar with protection training and things like the hold and bark, to teach it properly for the use you have in mind. 

The local SchH/IPO club is a good place to start looking for such a trainer. Most clubs keep their membership limited to those who want to fully participate in SchH/IPO, but they might be willing to entertain a part time membership for the purpose of teaching just an alert bark, or there may be a trainer/helper at the club willing to work with you outside of club to accomplish it.


----------



## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

marbury said:


> It's not a bad idea, but it is improbable *based on the ways I've seen training handled.* I've wanted the same deterrent for a long time, for the same reasons. Granted, my schutzund-related experience is limited to spectatorship and videos, but from the few visits to clubs I've made the dogs are focused on the person with The Sleeve, and the vocalization comes from intense drive to obtain said Sleeve. John T Smith out there in the wild blue yonder is not likely to be walking about attempting to lure in vulnerable ladies with a full bite sleeve on... although that sure would make it easier to identify potential creepers!
> 
> That said, there are very likely to be _other _ways to train than the limited methods I've been seeing. I'm riding your coattails here to see for myself what shenanigans my crew and I can get up to. *I doubt a dog without much drive would care enough to put on a good show either way, though.*


Yeah the little bit of training I've seen didn't look like it would transfer very well. She's not _without_ drive, though. She works well for a tennis ball, and has been doing pretty much exactly the kind of bark I want at other dogs right now (we're working on it *sigh*)


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Chris Wild said:


> Training an alert bark is absolutely possible.
> You will however fprobably find that training this sort of bark on your own won't work. While it's possible for an owner to train what is essentially a "speak" command that involves strong, consistent barking rather than just a single bark or two, *the dog won't direct it at who you want it directed at in the circumstances you'd want to use it in real life* because the dog's understanding of the exercise and motivation/mental state surrounding a "speak" won't transfer to that situation. *You'd need to get the help of a trainer*, one familiar with protection training and things like the hold and bark, to teach it properly for the use you have in mind.
> 
> The local SchH/IPO club is a good place to start looking for such a trainer. Most clubs keep their membership limited to those who want to fully participate in SchH/IPO, but they might be willing to entertain a part time membership for the purpose of teaching just an alert bark, or there may be a trainer/helper at the club willing to work with you outside of club to accomplish it.


Yeah I could just see teaching her a super intimidating bark just to have her turn around and bark at me instead of the threat lol. Do you think there is an age limit on training her to do this? I like the idea of getting a trainer, but I don't know if it would confuse her to work on this in addition to her obedience and cgc? If she won't get too old to learn it, I might wait and try a trainer after her cgc.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I think you could accomplish this if you really want to. Here's some clips from Bart Bellon explaining his theories on the bark and hold. Note he is simply using a ball and the dogs desire to get it to train the bark. 











See here how he can focus the bak on himself or on the ball/helper


----------



## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I love those videos! How do you translate it to a non-helpful 'helper' (aka random person with no knowledge or desire to incite response)?


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

You really can't translate it to someone else who isn't on the same program.

Videos can be good for picking up tips and tricks, but you cannot learn to train a dog by them.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Yes, it's possible. Depending on the dog it's not that hard, but I would recommend working with someone who's done it before, because you're probably going to be playing with frustrating or startling the dog to get a bark, and those are not things I'd recommend to a complete novice. I don't know anything at all about your dog, and there are some dogs out there (like mine) who would not respond well to certain approaches.

iirc Stanley Coren (who is _not_ a sport trainer, but has a good all-around understanding of dogs) did it just by opening an umbrella near a dog (this was for a Labrador Retriever that was a pet dog and had no protection training whatsoever -- the owner was a single woman in the city who wanted her dog to be able to scare off sketchy people with a loud bark).

When the dog barked in surprise, Stanley retreated with the umbrella, so the dog learned that it could make startling/unwanted things go away by barking at them, and then they used clicker capturing to get the bark on cue. Then they generalized the cue to other assistants. The cue was something like "Alert!" or "Guard!" so that it would sound like the dog was protection trained when, in fact, it wasn't.

So yes, you can train a dog to bluff. 

If you're training it like a trick -- which is to say, without trying to draw out real aggression from the dog -- then it shouldn't interfere with CGC or obedience work, and the dog's age shouldn't matter that much.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The stuff in those vids...that is Bart Bellon's LIFE. I would not bother replicating that. He has a pretty specific methodology he uses to get those results (I'm not endorsing it either, just saying).

Personally, if I wanted a dog to serve as a deterrent, I'd get a decent GSD and proof some basic obedience. A GSD will probably (and should) alert on his own if you are ever truly threatened. I would not worry about conditioning some sort of toy-based cue (barking at balls and such). Get some solid obedience because that looks pretty darn scary. Someone sees you walking your dog, you make eye contact with that possibly suspicious person, call your dog to a more formal heel or ask the dog to sit while that person passes...and they wonder if your dog can do those things for you, what else can he do? And if someone really is going to challenge you and your dog, a few alert barks aren't going to matter at that point.


----------



## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

I couldn't watch all of the videos (my computer is being super slow today  ) but what I saw looked really cool! I think I would have to work with a trainer regardless though, since I don't have any experience with this. The guy training the lab sounds cool, but with that method I would be concerned once he learned he could make scary things go away with his bark, he might develop a reactivity problem? I assume he also learned a quiet cue though, and with lots of socialization wasn't bothered by much? Definitely an interesting concept to pursue.

Maybe a GSD with really solid obedience would be enough of a deterrent (I certainly feel safer walking my 100 lb lab and he's as dopey as they come lol!), but I just thinking adding the bark would be that much more effective. Honestly I don't know that I would ever ask her to use it, since I really live in a pretty safe neighborhood and tend to walk along the more busy roads if it's after dark. I just think knowing that she had that training would be empowering and comforting 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Bequavious said:


> The guy training the lab sounds cool, but with that method I would be concerned once he learned he could make scary things go away with his bark, he might develop a reactivity problem? I assume he also learned a quiet cue though, and with lots of socialization wasn't bothered by much?


Yes, if I'm remembering correctly, there was a "quiet" cue as well.

I have to speculate a little here, because all I know about the anecdote with the Lab is what Stanley Coren wrote about in his book, but my guess is that the dog wasn't particularly reactive to begin with. My experience has been that if you have a reactive dog, you really do _not_ need to train that dog to bark at strangers. The dog will be doing plenty of that on its own, whether you want it or not!

But yes, I agree with you that for some dogs, taking that approach would likely have some unwanted secondary effects, which is why it's so important to work with someone who knows what they're doing.


----------



## Jared77 (Sep 28, 2013)

> Do you think a dog could be trained just for the bark and hold aspect of ipo?


Yes. 

I've taught a stay and bark without a bite myself and helped teach it to other Search & Rescue dogs and its the most common "alert" when working a dog on a collapsed structure. Say you live in a part of the U.S. that has issues with earthquakes. People are in the building, earthquake happens, building collapses trapping people inside it.

K9s are deployed to search the rubble pile and when they hit human scent source (coming from the trapped victim) they stay and bark. Just like in IPO. The idea is to keep the dog there and going back and forth over the rubble pile risking further collapse or injury to the dog or other search team members. And these are a variety of breeds. GSDs, Labs, Goldens, other working dogs or sporting dogs and some mixed breeds. 

Here is the *VERY basic 101* of this kind of training. The first thing is the reward "appears". The handler stays behind the dog and when it barks or shows any part of the desired behavior you want you throw the reward usually just over the dogs ears. Hence why I said it "magically appears" Similar to what Mr Bellon does when the dog is barking and then makes the ball suddenly move. Dog barks, ball moves, dog gets reward. Just as he said you start requiring more barks from the dog to get the reward. Or more complex behavior in order to get the reward. Build it up and you'll get it.

It takes time but it can be done. I've done this for "passive" indications too. When they smell something they sit, down, etc and the reward "magically appears". The idea is for them not to realize it was coming from you so they don't look back at you for the reward.

Something else to think about. 99.9% of would be bad guys are opportunistic. They see their chance to get what they want and they take it. An open window, unlocked door, single female walking in a dark secluded area alone. Having a dog that would bark is more than enough to deter those people. Instead of just being you, its you and a dog that is barking. Even if its not jumping in their face barking the fact that its barking at them, they'll pass because they have to not only subdue their victim, they have to deal with an angry appearing dog too. 

As far as that last % those are the completely off the reservation folks who don't care that they have a GSD with a full deep mouth grip, taking the fight to the bad guy on all 4 extremities they are still coming to get you because they have something seriously wrong with them. And until you use lethal force to stop them they are still a threat and will continue to attempt to harm you. There's not a dog out there that will stop that person. Even the most street strong dog will only buy you time to get away or give you time to arm yourself.

Luckily those individuals are extremely rare. 

Get with a good trainer, and I'm sure they can help figure out the situation to help you train it the right way. Chris is right its not something you can just learn by watching a few internet videos.


----------



## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Jared77 said:


> Yes.
> 
> I've taught a stay and bark without a bite myself and helped teach it to other Search & Rescue dogs and its the most common "alert" when working a dog on a collapsed structure. Say you live in a part of the U.S. that has issues with earthquakes. People are in the building, earthquake happens, building collapses trapping people inside it.
> 
> ...


Oh sweet! I didn't even think about this behavior being used in SAR dogs! That's really cool 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jared77 (Sep 28, 2013)

What if instead of a "directed bark" at a threat, what if you went the other way and you take a wide stance and the dog goes between you and barks? More like the 



 in French Ring vs Bark & Hold in IPO? 

Yes I know the dog isn't barking in this video but its best example I could find to show what I was trying to explain.

Your creating the illusion of a serious dog that the person has to go through in order to get to you, rather than trying to get the dog out at the end of the leash. Envision yourself as the basket and have dog stay with you that way. You maintain tighter control and your not trying to train something out so far. 

Would be a simple bark on command and holding the collar/leash tight you could keep getting them to bark. Again I'd reward over the dogs head so they are not looking back at you for the reward you want to keep them looking out and barking. 

Just thinking out loud here.


----------



## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

No expert, but I'll give my two cents...

I don't think its at all unreasonable to capture a barking behavior in a dog, and simply encourage it in situations where you want it.

Mulder is a deathly silent GSD, hardly ever barks, even in protection work. So one day while training, by fluke of chance a car backfired and I captured the "woof woof" alert bark he gave and went from there. If I tell him his bark command under neutral circumstances, he will only "woof woof" once or twice. But if we are doing protection work and he's amped up on the decoy, if I tell him this command and encourage it continuously he will continue to bark until I release him or the exercise is over. 

Something to consider. If you are in a threatening situation, I would think even a low drive dog should be able to read the situation well enough to get worked up and bark if you apply some urgency to it (for me, during protection work, I say "get'um" in a low fast voice over and over to keep him amped).


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Bequavious said:


> II think I would have to work with a trainer regardless though, since I don't have any experience with this.


If you plan to work with a trainer, why not just join a SchH/IPO, SDA, or PSA type club and train the actual behavior? SDA would be perfect. The first level title has NO bites, it's all alert barking, showing that the dog is "forward" with the aggression/protection (don't need bites to show this) and then obedience and control which is super important even if you're asking a dog to "fake" aggression.


----------



## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Liesje said:


> If you plan to work with a trainer, why not just join a SchH/IPO, SDA, or PSA type club and train the actual behavior? SDA would be perfect. The first level title has NO bites, it's all alert barking, showing that the dog is "forward" with the aggression/protection (don't need bites to show this) and then obedience and control which is super important even if you're asking a dog to "fake" aggression.


I guess we'll have to see how she progresses and what she really enjoys. I know a lot of places in my area won't allow your dog to work as a therapy dog, if he has any bite training. I haven't gotten far enough along to really know what would disqualify you, so I might be able to do the parts of SchH without the bite work, but I might not. It would just depend on how the places I would take her feel I guess.

On the other hand, she might end up not caring for therapy work, in which case we won't be restricted. Also, if I'm not concerned about her being suitable for therapy, I might be more inclined to try to train an alert bark on my own.:shrug: We'll just have to see how it goes, though. At 7 months, she's currently the star of the (albeit, tiny) beginner obedience class :wub:

I hadn't heard of SDA before, but from a brief search, I don't think there's a club in my area. :-(


----------

