# Are puppies training to be K9s allowed to socialize?



## Gretchen

My friend and neighbor, who has 2 Huskies, a puppy and adult, lives in the same condo unit with a police officer who is training his 6-7 month old GSD to be a police dog. The city he works for is supporting him. The dog may specialize in explosives detection.

The Husky owner is a very friendly, fun outgoing person and has asked the officer if he wanted to take all three dogs to a private, nearby beach. He declined and in general does not seem interested in his dog getting to know his neighbors, the huskies. We seldom see him either. My friend is wondering if this is a standard part of training a dog to be a police dog, minimal socialization, or maybe the officer is just not interested in this particular neighbor?


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## Courtney

We have a dear friend with FEMA SAR Task Force One. He does not allow his dog to "play" with dogs outside of his home, same with a military k9 handler we know with Ranger Batt.


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## Gretchen

Courtney said:


> We have a dear friend with FEMA SAR Task Force One. He does not allow his dog to "play" with dogs outside of his home, same with a military k9 handler we know with Ranger Batt.


Thanks for responding. I'll tell my friend her neighbor's behavior is normal for what his dog will be doing.


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## Courtney

I'm sure those here with service dogs can give you more feedback


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## Castlemaid

In general no, they are not. They are raised to ignore other dogs, and to always turn to their handler for play, reward and interaction.


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## Gretchen

Castlemaid said:


> In general no, they are not. They are raised to ignore other dogs, and to always turn to their handler for play, reward and interaction.


That makes sense. It's hard to resist a GSD though! If I see him around, I'll leave them alone.


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## crackem

i used to believe all that stuff too. "If you let a dog play with another dog, they'll be more fun than you, and your dog won't listen." 

"You have to train your dog to only focus on you, letting them play with other dogs is dangerous". 

"what happens if you're out working and your dog sees another dog?" "it will want to run off and play and get distracted and not work"

I have since come to a totally different conclusion. I think it's something that people might believe, but isn't actually real. one of my dogs loves, and I do mean loves to play with other dogs, all dogs, big and small anytime any place. that said, a dog could be humping her, and has tried when we were doing work and she didn't even blink at the other dog.

I think any dog worth a darn can easily focus on the task at hand regardless if it plays with dogs or not.


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## elisabeth_00117

The pups/young dogs going into work around here are not allowed to "play" with other dogs, but we do socialize with them. We usually have our dogs out off leash each with their handler and a toy and just interact with our dogs. 

I follow the same with my youngest, not really by choice now but she would much rather play with me than other dogs. 

Just two days ago we were at my breeders home with about 11 young dogs all off leash in her pond on her property and Zefra was just running around off lead kinda looking like, "where's the ball? what's the fuss about?"


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## Elaine

It may have nothing to do with the dog being trained as a K9 and everything to do with not wanting to have a play date with just some dogs he doesn't know. I certainly wouldn't let my dogs go play with the neighbors dogs because I don't trust the neighbors or the dogs. This is in the same category as someone running up to you on the street yelling "want to play? my dog is friendly." No way.


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## Liesje

Elaine said:


> It may have nothing to do with the dog being trained as a K9 and everything to do with not wanting to have a play date with just some dogs he doesn't know. I certainly wouldn't let my dogs go play with the neighbors dogs because I don't trust the neighbors or the dogs. This is in the same category as someone running up to you on the street yelling "want to play? my dog is friendly." No way.


That's what I was thinking. I'm not an LEO and don't train K9s but I'm selective about what dogs my dogs interact with. As they get older I become less selective. If a dog is good with other dogs, then they are good with other dogs. I don't believe that changes. Pan wasn't really allowed to meet any other dogs until he was over a year old and now he has many dog friends of all sizes and breeds. It's really more me than my dogs. I'm just not much of a dog person and don't care to socialize with other breeds of dogs or their owners just because.


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## Zeeva

I've posted about meeting a K9 officer and his dog once. I was so excited to ask him if Zeeva could play in the park with his dog. I thought Zeeva could learn a thing or two from these type of intelligent and obedient dogs. He said "no--he bites people" or something along that extent. I expected K9 dogs to be sociable and friendly because they are around people all the time. But it is my understanding now that this is not necessarily the case. K9 dogs are supposed to be extremely obedient to their handler and in order to be this way, they need to find their handler more interesting than any other distraction. I remember when I let Zeeva run around in the park, the officer put his K9 in a down stay while Zeeva went buzerk (but not close to the K9). My responses to the post also included some who said that it really depends on what type of duty the K9 performs. Some K9s can be taken to schools and around children...Pretty interesting


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## Elektra2167

Our dogs do not routinely play with the other dogs at training. They get plenty of "play" time with the other dogs in our pack at home. That is their release place. Even when we are on a scene, and not necessarily actively working, the dogs are and have to act like professionals, even during down time. Their play / relax time is at home. All other times they are in work or train mode. At training if they are not actively doing a problem, they must wait patiently till the other dog is done. So in implementing this routine as standard daily practice, the dogs learn when play time is, and when it isn't. The other reason some handlers prefer not to have their dogs routinely play with other dogs, and they are taught to ignore them, is because it can be very dangerous for a working dog to encounter and engage with an unknown dog. Even an on lead tracking dog can encounter the frantic purse dog that charges at them. The working dogs have to have the focus to ignore those annoyances.


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## martemchik

It really depends on the school of thought the instructor or trainer are using. Some do socialize in order to get their dogs more neutral, others do the whole ignore all dogs thing so that they never even think about playing with another dog. I completely agree about the not allowing the dog to play where they do work though. I've noticed my dog understands that when we go to training, its training time and not play time, he is much more attentive there than anywhere else we go. So maybe a police officer that needs his dog like that in all situations doesn't want the dog to think its okay to play in x environment.

About the officer taking his dog to the park, was this a dog park? Because that is something I would never recommend. A dog that is trained to bite and that has a known (taught) aggressive streak should not be trusted around other dogs in such an uncontrolled environment. It takes a split second for a dog to do something that can get the other dog angry or feel threatened and there is no way the officer will be able to stop it in time.

Also...lets be serious, not all those people know exactly what they're doing and most are training just off of experience. There isn't one program in the United States that trains all the dogs and many smaller towns have no way of affording a training program that produces dogs on a consistent basis. Not all of these dogs are the best trained, and as much as we all think they should be bullet proof and the best examples of our breed, they aren't always the best trained. I'm not really blaming the dogs or the handlers because the dogs have an extremely difficult job and its hard to train it for every situation it can see out in the field.


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## Liesje

I think this is more an issue of priority than dogs/training. I do several types of protection/bitework training with both my GSDs and both are trustworthy with other dogs. I foster puppies so I can't have dogs that are super dog aggressive and territorial. I've never had a fight, either between my own dogs or any foster or friend's dog. At flyball we have mass chaos and dogs in high drive running everywhere. I expect my dogs to be under control and not picking fights with other dogs, but it's just not a priority for me to let my dogs interact with any random person who stops me. Now I'm not an LEO but I would imagine if anything there dogs demonstrate even *better* control, temperament, and training than mine do. If someone asks me about our dogs playing, if I say no it's because I don't like *their* dog not because mine are trained to be aggressive toward dogs or anything like that.


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## NancyJ

Elektra2167 said:


> Our dogs do not routinely play with the other dogs at training. They get plenty of "play" time with the other dogs in our pack at home. That is their release place. Even when we are on a scene, and not necessarily actively working, the dogs are and have to act like professionals, even during down time. Their play / relax time is at home. All other times they are in work or train mode. At training if they are not actively doing a problem, they must wait patiently till the other dog is done. So in implementing this routine as standard daily practice, the dogs learn when play time is, and when it isn't. The other reason some handlers prefer not to have their dogs routinely play with other dogs, and they are taught to ignore them, is because it can be very dangerous for a working dog to encounter and engage with an unknown dog. Even an on lead tracking dog can encounter the frantic purse dog that charges at them. The working dogs have to have the focus to ignore those annoyances.


Yes, I was on a search this Sunday and we were fortunate the yard dogs were all on chains and barking at us as opposed to running free but we have encountered that as well. At 9, Grim doesnt even pay attention to them, or to the deer who stamped at us or the turkeys who ran in front of us. Not one bit. Beau is learning and he really just wants to go say hi, but all the fun is controlled......and does not involve playing with or paying attention to strange dogs. We have had loose dogs charge us and the working dog has to ignore both the dogs and the people blocking them. Grim knows the minute he gets out of the truck what it is all about. Beau is quickly learning.

EDIT my dogs are not K9s but one is a cadaver dog and one is in training to be one.


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## Natural Beauty Farm

At 6/7 mo old, I do not want my pup that I have put so much time, effort and money into becoming dog aggressive because of a play date where another, older, larger dog was too aggressive. Not many pups have the temperament to come through one bad experience with flying colors, even litters bred for "police work". Off leash play time is a formula for trouble until around age 2 when they have the skills and training to handle random events.


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## robinhuerta

We have had several of "our" young dogs find their futures as working Police K9s.
Every young dog had been socialized and raised around other dogs...(our dogs).
Several actually had *puppy show careers* before the decision to sell them to the Police departments.
*However*....none of our dogs visit play groups or dog parks. They are socialized around other dogs, but are not "pack" followers....they are "human" followers.

*if you've ever seen our dogs in person....you would easily understand what I mean, and their strong, secure development with my husband... Carlos...over anything and anybody.*
So I think that yes...Police K9s or any service dog...needs to be well socialized, but not allowed to be over stimulated by outside sources....as a reward or relief.
JMO


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## blackshep

Can I side track this a bit?

Are police K9's dangerous to the general public? Like if they were out patrolling and a kid asked to pet it, would that be dangerous?

I always thought the dogs were trained to chase/bite on command, not make those decisions themselves? 

My friend thinks GSD's are man eaters, I don't feel they are, and even trained K9's should be safe in public, I thought?


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## TommyB681

in my experience not all k9s are dangerous. I have been around numerous k9s that are playful loveable dogs that are so well trained, unless commanded, there is almost no outward aggression. Others are not so social. K9s in many prisons are kenneled at the prison and are not meant to be social family type dogs


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## blackshep

So it sort of depends on the individual dog then? 

I could see prison K9's would be different, but then they aren't out in public.


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## Freestep

crackem said:


> i used to believe all that stuff too. "If you let a dog play with another dog, they'll be more fun than you, and your dog won't listen."
> 
> "You have to train your dog to only focus on you, letting them play with other dogs is dangerous".
> 
> "what happens if you're out working and your dog sees another dog?" "it will want to run off and play and get distracted and not work"
> 
> I have since come to a totally different conclusion. I think it's something that people might believe, but isn't actually real. one of my dogs loves, and I do mean loves to play with other dogs, all dogs, big and small anytime any place. that said, a dog could be humping her, and has tried when we were doing work and she didn't even blink at the other dog.
> 
> I think any dog worth a darn can easily focus on the task at hand regardless if it plays with dogs or not.





robinhuerta said:


> So I think that yes...Police K9s or any service dog...needs to be well socialized, but not allowed to be over stimulated by outside sources....as a reward or relief.


Several of my grooming clients regularly go to "doggie daycare" at a local training/boarding center. There is a playgroup of some dozen-odd dogs that run, play in the water, play with toys and people and each other all day long.

After roughly a year and a half of working with these dogs, here is what I have noticed.

The dogs are, generally speaking, friendly and fairly confident, obviously well-socialized, and in good physical shape. However, it is easy to tell which dogs are actually *trained*, and which dogs are simply thrown into the playgroup to release energy, in lieu of any training, just to keep them exercised and easier to live with. 

The dogs that are NOT trained are self-absorbed, spoiled BRATS. They are used to doing exactly what they please all day long, and become offended and sullen when a human attempts to tell them what to do. Not only that, but they are athletic and used to the dodge/evade/wrestle game, so they are particularly adept at trying to get away from me or thwart what I am trying to do (bathing, brushing, etc).  

These untrained dogs tend to have a hard time standing still and do not relax. If they only come in occasionally for grooming, it takes a long time to get them to accept the idea of being groomed, of standing still, cooperating, or at least tolerating something they don't necessarily want. While not aggressive per se, they tend to be fiesty and mouthy. It can be quite frustrating to groom these beasts.

OTOH, if the dog is in a training program apart from the playgroup, or if the owner at least works with dog and he is accustomed to being groomed and handled a lot at home, they are wonderful to work with. I have an Old English Sheepdog that comes in at least every two weeks, and his owner does a lot of brushing at home. Old English are notorious for bad temperament and a willingness to bite, but this boy is great. Because he goes to the playgroup twice a week, he is in good physical shape and therefore can jump into the tub and onto the table, and stand for as long as I need him to. Since he has burned off energy, he is calm and able to relax, and since he is groomed so frequently, he has learned to cooperate and--dare I say--enjoy the process.

There are a couple other dogs who go to the playgroup, that have also been thoroughly trained by their owners, and I only wish every dog could be so well-behaved and calm in my grooming shop!

So the moral of the story is, socializing with other dogs in well-organized and supervised playgroups, while a positive thing for the dog, is NOT a substitute for training. It may make them easier to live with because they have burned off energy and had mental and social stimulation, therefore they aren't as bored and destructive in the home. But if the dog never has anything asked of him, if he's never learned any kind of obedience, self-control, or anything with *humans*, he's not going to be easy to work with. He'll likely be great with other dogs and that's about it. 

Playgroups are a wonderful *addition* to training.


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## Freestep

blackshep said:


> Are police K9's dangerous to the general public? Like if they were out patrolling and a kid asked to pet it, would that be dangerous?


It depends on the individual dog, but I petted a police k9 the other day, a Dutch Shepherd, and he was very friendly. I used to groom a GSD who was a police k9, and he was perfectly behaved for the whole thing. So a police dog does not necessarily *need* to be dangerous to the general public in order to be a good police dog.


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## dbrk9

I think it depends on the individual dog. My puppy is very socialized and loves to play with other dogs, yet I can have her loose on our ranch and she will at times choose to do her own thing or entertain herself. 

As far as being a watch dog, she only barks when there is a reason to bark and when she does she means business. I can have her out with my other 4 dogs and they can be barking just to be barking, she will ignore them. When she barks it is for a good reason and she is only 7 months!

We have a busy horse boarding ranch, I have 4 other dogs. I believe that socializing her was very important as she is very aloof by nature. I know I have a well socialized pup to both other dogs and people including children. But at the same time know that she will alert me if something is out of the ordinary. 

I have been training her with a GSD class and the first part of training is socializing, then the dogs are put to work in basic to advanced obedience. The class is huge and takes place downtown. At any given time there are about 15-25 GSD that perform in the advance class off leash. The same ones that socialize for the first 30 minutes of class, are the same ones performing advanced obedience amongst distractions. 

The instructor is a Schutzhund trainer and retired K-9 police officer


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