# Questions Re: Breeder contract, papers, etc



## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

Hey all,

First I just want to say that I'm in no way being intentionally critical about this breeder and their kennel. I have no other dealings with kennels to compare this experience with.

I will try to hit the powerpoints and shorten this as best as I can.

First, the breeder said the litter would be from X and Y sire and dam. Then, as how nature goes at times, they said the breeding didn't go well so the pups will be from X and Y sire and Dam. 

The breeder said they purchased a dam from Germany with a confirmed successful breeding. The pups they show are said to be 8 weeks the middle of this month....but they had an issue getting a export stamp from the kennel club in Austria that is necessary to get her AKC registration.

Ok, np I understand in real life...real life happens. They went on to say they had to Fed EX the papers back to them and they have been stamped now, but with the language barrier they were not able to make them understand to express mail them back to them

They continue on saying they have the receipt from them (the kennel club I assume ?) showing that they were stamped and charged their credit card. 

The slow return to them (the breeder) will make it difficult to have the AKC part done before the pups leave there, but the contract will state that the pups will receive their AKC registration. It may just take an extra month to get the paperwork done.

Ok, I don't really consider myself a naive person by nature, so this all sounds like 'sometimes things just happen'. 

Then I ask will they (the breeder) be providing all health documentation for the sire, dam and the pups, as well as pedigree certificate/s once we arrive. Also a comprehensive sales contract.

The breeder responds with this first.. "Hima came here from Europe and I have all of her documents. Her pedigree is stunning. Every dog in both mom and dad's pedigree have been health tested and had breed worthiness surveys done . Hips and elbows x-rated and certified".


Then followed with.."I have included a link to the father's pedigree and will have the Dam's post on the database shortly, but I do have a certified paper copy of it. It is a top rate breeding.

And then.. "I can forward the contract and some of Hima's info later today. I do not have The father's health info. We never receive such paper's with a breeding from Germany or Serbia, Austria. What we do have is a confirmed mating with 2 registered dogs from the kennel club there. This is nothing like AKC where anyone can breed any dog they want without health testing.. Over there the kennel club is our "police" and they ensure that the dogs have met all qualifications for breeding". 

"Hima's registration is already being held up due to missing a simple Export Stamp. Even something that minor is enough that the papers had to be returned and corrected"

Ok, again, I am not making any accusations that there is 'foul play' etc...just one of the reasons I'm here, to gain more GSD knowledge and seek advice.

The breeder then sent they were having issues with their scanner/copier (been there done that 😔 ) and yesterday sent 3 pics of what I can only assume, is the passpot and pedigree? 🤷‍♀️

I will attempt to attach the contract as well as the 'passport/pedigree'. 

My main things with this, is to toss my 'situation' here and hopefully have people that are more knowledgeable than myself, see if there's anything 'amiss' and or what would be appropriate to ask and see proof wise etc...

Is this a typical contract? If not, what is missing and what should I be concerned about (if anything)...

I don't want to overstep any boundaries, but I also want to be assued my new addition to the family comes from who they say, and that the Sire and Dam are clear in everything stated to me.

This isn't a small purchase..both in price, care and responsibility. 

I apologize for this being so long. I also apologize to the mods if this isn't the appropriate thread to post this.

Thanks in advance,

Shauna


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

"the amount of the deposit will be deducted from the remaining purchase price". So if I do the math. Let's say the purchase price is $3000 and the deposit is $1000. The remaining fee is $2000, deduct $1000 so the cost of the dog according to the contract would be a total of $1000. Or am I math challenged? I find this a vague contract in three languages and a complicated and cumbersome way of getting a dog. Are you in the US and why go oversees?


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> "the amount of the deposit will be deducted from the remaining purchase price". So if I do the math. Let's say the purchase price is $3000 and the deposit is $1000. The remaining fee is $2000, deduct $1000 so the cost of the dog according to the contract would be a total of $1000. Or am I math challenged? I find this a vague contract in three languages and a complicated and cumbersome way of getting a dog. Are you in the US and why go oversees?



Hello, yes I understand the deposit and it being applied to the balance once I go to pick the puppy up. Price per pup is $2500 and I paid the requested $300 deposit a few months ago.

I am in the US and the breeder is approximately 3 hrs from me. 

I'm not sure why they purchased the Dam from another country.....I just assumed that's a 'common thing' with breeders. 

So you think the contract is "vague"? May I ask why? 

I requested them to send me the contract they use, so I could see of anything jumped out at me that would be different than what I've been told in various emails. 

Is that the only thing you see in my post that's questionable? Just asking because there is a lot more than the contract. 

Thank you


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A few points that I find vague: "any related registration papers" "normal health problems". There is no guarantee of genetic issues. Paragraph 5, "the dog cannot be bred before 24 months". (no mentioning about health testing for breeding).


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

that is probably the most used contract in the GSD world............have seen this same contract - modified to specifics from alot of breeders.......basically it was the contract I started off with and which I have expanded, made changes relevant to my needs.

As far as the paperwork being somehow suspicious versus just screwed up????????? Super common.....I have jumped through hoops when importing a bred female to get all the paperwork in the country of origin...then more paperwork hoops with AKC.....IF this breeder has imported bred females previously, they are probably not overly concerned....it just takes time to send stuff back and forth and get all the i's dotted and t's crossed.......getting copies of everything along with the contract should give you some sense of security....the language of the deposit/full price could be rewritten to be more clear, agreed.

Frankly - probably 2/3 or more of the dogs i have bred over 20 years are still in my name at AKC because most people don't bother to transfer them into their own names. I would not be terribly worried about the paperwork given the info you posted. It will be there, just will take a bit longer than normal.

Lee


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> A few points that I find vague: "any related registration papers" "normal health problems". There is no guarantee of genetic issues. Paragraph 5, "the dog cannot be bred before 24 months". (no mentioning about health testing for breeding).


Heya, so are you meaning there is a lack of any related registration papers? I apologize, but what would that entail? What would I ask the breeder?

When you say "normal health problems" is that also something that should be included?

Is it 'standard' for a breeder to have a guarantee of no genetic issues? 

Health testing in the event (after I have spent many many many hours and days learning everything I can to make an informed decision whether to breed or not) I want to breed at some point in her life? 

Sorry, I just want to make certain I'm on the same page with u 🙂


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am not an attorney. It was just my 2 cents on the internet. Others are probably more experienced in reading these type of contacts.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

wolfstraum said:


> that is probably the most used contract in the GSD world............have seen this same contract - modified to specifics from alot of breeders.......basically it was the contract I started off with and which I have expanded, made changes relevant to my needs.
> 
> As far as the paperwork being somehow suspicious versus just screwed up????????? Super common.....I have jumped through hoops when importing a bred female to get all the paperwork in the country of origin...then more paperwork hoops with AKC.....IF this breeder has imported bred females previously, they are probably not overly concerned....it just takes time to send stuff back and forth and get all the i's dotted and t's crossed.......getting copies of everything along with the contract should give you some sense of security....the language of the deposit/full price could be rewritten to be more clear, agreed.
> 
> ...



Hi and ty for the reply. 

So I shouldn't be concerned about the sire not having any health records and or from which kennel he's at? 

I was told that both have certified hips n elbows and DM clear etc etc....but there is nothing, that I know of, that I can see on paper confirming that.

Are the things the breeder said about the European kennel clubs not supplying records as they are our "police" to ensure the dogs are 'good to go, no written proof needed'? 

If so, that's not a problem.....but, everything I've put into my post are things that I hope aren't 'red flags'....just want to have available everything that one with experience purchasing these dogs, would require before and at the day of purchase.

If everything I've stated from the breeder is standard and the majority of experienced buyers wouldn't have an issue with, then that's what I'm looking for. 

I'm just a thrown off when they are guaranteed to be DM cleared and scored hips n elbows...but yet there's nothing on paper indicating that.

Mind you, if I had been dealing with this breeder over several years and purchasing...I wouldn't be nervous. 

There are no 100% guarantees in nature, but I do believe in trying to minimize the risks as best as possible ✔


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> I am not an attorney. It was just my 2 cents on the internet. Others are probably more experienced in reading these type of contacts.


lol, same here.....just wanting any and all advise/opinions on the things specific in my original post, and figured what better place than a huge GSD fourm 🙂


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm no expert, but in most contracts I've seen the seller warranties the dog for hip and elbow dysplasia or other genetic maladies for at least 2 yrs. And they usually stipulate whether you have to send back the dog or can keep it if something like that happens, clearly outlining the terms of replacement of the dog or puppy.

For that price, you should have easy access to all health documents of both parents before making your decision to buy. 

Images of foriegn documents are all but worthless, unless you happen to speak the language, because you can't cut and paste said text into a translator app.

I don't know. Given all these changes and oddball arrangements and mishaps, if it were me I think I'd be tempted to forfeit the deposit and look elsewhere. But that's just me...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

That's why I asked if he signed and paid yet.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> "the amount of the deposit will be deducted from the remaining purchase price". So if I do the math. Let's say the purchase price is $3000 and the deposit is $1000. The remaining fee is $2000, deduct $1000 so the cost of the dog according to the contract would be a total of $1000. Or am I math challenged? I find this a vague contract in three languages and a complicated and cumbersome way of getting a dog. Are you in the US and why go oversees?


You're attempting to deduct the deposit twice LOL!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When dealing with paperwork from overseas, it is common to have delays. I wouldn't worry about that. I purchased one dam from Germany, a Vegas daughter, yours is linebred on Vegas. And there was some delay. That bitch will be 14 soon, so it was over 10 years ago, that I got her, and we worked on the paperwork immediately, and still it wasn't back before the puppy was ready to go home. That was ok, the woman who got the puppy helped me with the purchase and transfer and was understanding about the paperwork delays. 

I wouldn't be too concerned about the health testing. It is true that the dogs that are registered through the SV have to have that testing to be bred. It isn't like the US where we have an all-breed registry, they have a breed club that maintains the stud books. So ours maintains the stud books for 200 some breeds, and theirs has one breed per club. It is a different philosophy. So they can be very particular in their requirements for breeding. 

As for a hip/elbow guaranty, most aren't worth the parchment. Are you going to keep a dog for two years, and then turn him over to be euthanized if he doesn't pass health testing, only to get another puppy that may have similar if not worst issues? I think American breeders offer the guaranty or really warranty because buyers in America expect it. Most require the dog to be returned to the breeder before they are sent a replacement, once there is a replacement. Getting money back for hips/elbows that do not pass is pretty much unheard of. But I cannot think of any dog I have ever owned that I would send back to the breeder after having for 2 years, however bad the hips are, and however much money they may refund. Because going back to the breeder for bad hips or elbows, generally means euthanasia. So, you can hold out for a piece of paper to say that hips and elbows have a warranty, but I would regret losing a great dog for a meaningless piece of paper.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm no expert, but in most contracts I've seen the seller warranties the dog for hip and elbow dysplasia or other genetic maladies for at least 2 yrs. And they usually stipulate whether you have to send back the dog or can keep it if something like that happens, clearly outlining the terms of replacement of the dog or puppy.
> 
> For that price, you should have easy access to all health documents of both parents before making your decision to buy.
> 
> ...


Hi Tim,

Thank you for the reply!!

Ok, I do like the sound of 'genetic guarantees' being worded into a contract, more than what this particular contract states. I don't like a contract that is mostly or all beneficial to the seller....but to the buyer as well. With the pups interest included. 

That just seems to me like good business practice 101. But, I'm new to 'this world' so I don't know what's common, acceptable and or what honest experienced GSD owners would want from a kennel/person when purchasing a new pup.

This breeder is the only one's within a reasonable distance that didn't 'snarl' at me when I asked what would the process be IF after gaining adequate knowledge, I wanted to breed.

I think the ones that have acted like I'm wanting to run a backyard puppymill, and were not very pleasant towards me, has a lot to do with some wouldn't want 'competition' so close....but that's just my opinion. 

When I first started looking for breeders, I never considered ones that would have a puppy flown to me. Idk, I haven't really read up on the risks, if any, of that. And, I'd definitely want a well worded contract that would give me assurances.... if there were any issues (damage to the pup etc etc).


I've spent well over $10k on having a wooden privacy fence installed, more for adding topsoil and grass seed to make the area more 'smooth and comfortable', doggie doors, chew toys, water and food bowls etc....not to sell puppies....but to have a better environment for the addition to this family. 

Would I like the option, as a responsible adult to possibly get into breeding? Idk, maybe....I'd have about 2 years+ to prepare and decide. 

Every responsible GSD breeder (or any breed) had to start somewhere. 

Sorry, got off topic lol. Still a little bitter from basically being insulted from them? Sure am 🙂 

Anyway, I am on the fence so to speak about what to do. I don't have 1.5 mil in the bank (I wish) so $300 is a lot of money to walk away from, BUT, if the sire and or dam have 'issues' and there isn't a genetic guarantee, that could possibly cost me a lot more in the long run....including heartache. 

I do want as much input as possible from ppl here, and definitely those that are experienced and what exactly they would need/want from a seller, in order to complete a sale, would be more than welcome.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

selzer said:


> When dealing with paperwork from overseas, it is common to have delays. I wouldn't worry about that. I purchased one dam from Germany, a Vegas daughter, yours is linebred on Vegas. And there was some delay. That bitch will be 14 soon, so it was over 10 years ago, that I got her, and we worked on the paperwork immediately, and still it wasn't back before the puppy was ready to go home. That was ok, the woman who got the puppy helped me with the purchase and transfer and was understanding about the paperwork delays.
> 
> I wouldn't be too concerned about the health testing. It is true that the dogs that are registered through the SV have to have that testing to be bred. It isn't like the US where we have an all-breed registry, they have a breed club that maintains the stud books. So ours maintains the stud books for 200 some breeds, and theirs has one breed per club. It is a different philosophy. So they can be very particular in their requirements for breeding.
> 
> As for a hip/elbow guaranty, most aren't worth the parchment. Are you going to keep a dog for two years, and then turn him over to be euthanized if he doesn't pass health testing, only to get another puppy that may have similar if not worst issues? I think American breeders offer the guaranty or really warranty because buyers in America expect it. Most require the dog to be returned to the breeder before they are sent a replacement, once there is a replacement. Getting money back for hips/elbows that do not pass is pretty much unheard of. But I cannot think of any dog I have ever owned that I would send back to the breeder after having for 2 years, however bad the hips are, and however much money they may refund. Because going back to the breeder for bad hips or elbows, generally means euthanasia. So, you can hold out for a piece of paper to say that hips and elbows have a warranty, but I would regret losing a great dog for a meaningless piece of paper.


Good evening Selzer,

I probably should have made it more clear in my original post. The bottom of my totem pole worries, is the paperwork in order to have my pup registered immediately. 

It's in the contract that they will be able to be registered, and I have no problems if it takes a few weeks after the purchase to acquire the needed docs. Since it's worded in the contract, I'd have a legal leg to stand on IF I were given endless excuses.

How do I know who the sire is for this litter? The breeder offered me a link of pedigree for a sire....but how do I paper trail the Dam and sire of this litter? 

I'm not saying this breeder is being dishonest, I'm just saying sometimes things aren't always as they are told. In the GSD world and life in general. 

Let's say after a year or so of learing about breeding etc, I decided to breed. Not backyard, but actually having quality GSD that fits the, from what I've seen, average price of $1500-$3500......and I do everything I can to ensure the bloodline is kept up to what is expected.......then asked to provide pedigree and paperwork from both the Sire and Dam, only to have someone that really knows their stuff find out, idk, the Dam's father was not who I claimed, and come back and accuse me of being dishonest. Then what?

That would not be great for me on a personal level nor a professional level. 

I've stated that there are no 100% guarantees in nature, but I would feel more comfortable seeing that the actual Dam and Sire of a pup I buy, didn't show any signs of negative test results. 

As for a guarantee, I wouldn't just toss a puppy in a office to be executed.....that's absolutely horrible. 

I did not know American breeders were the only ones that give any type of guarantees/warranties. 

I would however, appreciate some type of assistance from a seller seeing as how 1, if they offered a guarantee, and 2, I had expressed I MAY want to breed at some point. 

Idk what all breeders do, I'd like to think some do not just execute the puppies, if returned.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The sire has hips and elbows done through the sv. I don’t see any certifications for the dams hips or elbows. I checked the OFA here and the SV.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> The sire has hips and elbows done through the sv. I don’t see any certifications for the dams hips or elbows. I checked the OFA here and the SV.


Hey, it's pretty late and I'm exhausted...so forgive me if I'm missing something obvious....so are u saying the sire for the pups is 'good' but the Dam has no record? Who is the sire? The Dam is apparently Hima and the stated sire is 






Hondo wolf hisarberg


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Hondo wolf hisarberg




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

This is 1 email saying these are the parents etc


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Shaunal76 said:


> Good evening Selzer,
> 
> I probably should have made it more clear in my original post. The bottom of my totem pole worries, is the paperwork in order to have my pup registered immediately.
> 
> ...


Simple rule: If you don't trust the person you are working with, don't buy a dog from him or her.

No doubt that some breeders will keep a dog with HD/ED, but what kind of life is that? Living at a breeder's home with 11 or 12 other dogs, or 50. Those of us who keep pups in order to build our line of dogs, and keep our elderly retirees, and keep dogs we've produced who were weak in body or mind. Eventually, we go from respected dog breeder to hoarder. Giving the dog back to the breeder may mean euthanasia, it could also mean worse than death, living as a hoarder's dog. It may very well be that its better to put an animal out of its pain than to try to fix it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

OP, you really don’t trust this breeder. The contract is fine, the delays are normal. If you want to breed you want to find a breeder to be your mentor, start with co-owning a female, learn a thing or two. Right now you just afraid to be screwed, don’t trust anyone, share private emails and information on the internet with strangers, have no idea what puppy with what genetics you are buying, think that a yard is the most important thing for a shepherd...


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

I think it’s great that the OP is trying her best to prepare/puppy proof the yard etc. 
From my experience, it’s a very very rare, almost impossible situation when you purchase your 1st pup and end with a quality dog that will pass all health clearances and be great as far as conformation and temperament to be considered worth breeding.
You can do all your internet research but without a mentor and joining breed clubs it’s probably not going to work.
If it’s your 1st GSD you might not realize how much work it takes to raise/train the pup, it might be very discouraging for some people.
Looking back you might say, what was I thinking about!)


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

selzer said:


> *Simple rule: If you don't trust the person you are working with, don't buy* a dog from him or her.


Good morning 

Well, if I went by that "Simple rule" in life, I wouldn't have gas in my car, food in the fridge....the list goes on.

I highly doubt most people on here (if they're being honest) and in this world, just throw caution to the wind and not require proof, paper trails, have to know the person selling and form some type of natural trusting bond, before buying a vehicle, house,......dog.

To be honest, your 2 posts sorta confused me concerning guarantees and what to do/not do with a 'sick' pup. Idk, either way, there is no perfectly correct answer unfortunately.


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## poconoman (Dec 7, 2020)

Bottom line is this. ALWAYS do tons of research BEFORE taking the dive. Regretting and not trusting the breeder AFTER the fact is a big bad on your part. At this point, there's nothing you can do other than losing your deposit if you're so unsure of this breeder. So, the question remains: Should you go through with this, get the pup and have fun? OR, no pup and lose the deposit? It's really that simple.


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## poconoman (Dec 7, 2020)

A vehicle, house, toaster and a lawn mower are unanimated objects. These things don't have lives. If they break, they can be repaired or replaced. They don't feel anything. A pup is a living soul. Comparing a pup to an unanimated object is like the pup is disposable. Doesn't have feelings. Can be thrown away.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Shaunal76 said:


> Hey, it's pretty late and I'm exhausted...so forgive me if I'm missing something obvious....so are u saying the sire for the pups is 'good' but the Dam has no record? Who is the sire? The Dam is apparently Hima and the stated sire is
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just went on the documents you posted. Hondo has health testing done through the SV. Hima doesn’t. Hima also doesn’t have anything in the OFA database. Hima is sired by Jax dei Precision. Her dam is Merci vom Kapellenberg. Everything the breeder has said checks out on a surface level. The health testing missing is a giant red flag to me.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Here’s my take on all of this. I wouldn’t buy from this person. There’s a lot of questions I would need answered. In general because of all the paperwork issues that tend to pop up, I wouldn’t buy an import or a puppy out of an imported pregnant female if it wasn’t someone I knew I could trust. I don’t say that based off internet. It would have to be someone I know, that I know has been through the process, or was vouched for by someone I know. There’s too much money and red tape involved. It’s a thin line between the reasonable issues that always come up and the stories you could get from a scammer. If I was provided a working prospect, I would want to see some sort of guarantee. It’s true most require you to send the dog back. All don’t. As an example, the breeder I bought my puppy from doesn’t ask you to send them back. You basically get the dog fixed and get a free replacement. I don’t agree with anyone saying you already put down a deposit so you might as well go through. For the rest of what you owe you could pay for a working line puppy in full. The point I do agree with is these are the types of questions you should ask before you start spending money.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

Lexie’s mom said:


> I think it’s great that the OP is trying her best to prepare/puppy proof the yard etc.
> From my experience, it’s a very very rare, almost impossible situation when you purchase your 1st pup and end with a quality dog that will pass all health clearances and be great as far as conformation and temperament to be considered worth breeding.
> You can do all your internet research but without a mentor and joining breed clubs it’s probably not going to work.
> If it’s your 1st GSD you might not realize how much work it takes to raise/train the pup, it might be very discouraging for some people.
> Looking back you might say, what was I thinking about!)


Thank you for your reply. It seemed sincere and I really do appreciate that.

Yes I am trying my best to prepare and hopefully it's money well spent for a long long time.

I do understand that there are no guarantees in nature and sometimes unforeseen things happen even with the best of 'preventive planning/maintenance etc'.

I would still feel more comfortable taking a pup from a mom and dad that has been verified and given the 'all is good' pass.

After I learn what I can about breeding, I may not go that route..or I may. I do know one thing, I'll have about 2 years to make that decision. 🙂

Again, thank you for one of the helpful replies I've received.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

Shaunal76 said:


> Thank you for your reply. It seemed sincere and I really do appreciate that.
> 
> Yes I am trying my best to prepare and hopefully it's money well spent for a long long time.
> 
> ...


I was in your shoes many years ago when I decided that I want to get a show quality AKC full registration female Shar Pei with high hopes of breeding her later. I fell in love with the breed actually pulling a few Pei from the shelters and fostering so I wasn’t that new with the breed. Found a well known breeder, who picked a pup for me from the current litter. The pup was shipped. She was great! She finished her CH around 2y.o and had all the health clearances done. Then she was bred and had 5 pups. I kept one. She lived with us for 14 years along with her daughter who lived till 12+, both were absolutely great dogs. I miss them every day!
I got lucky. Little that I knew, a couple of years after I got my dog, the breeder got greedy. She became a hoarder and basically her kennel turned into a puppy mill that was finally reported, dogs were taken away and went to rescues and the breeder was actually jailed for something else. Life is unpredictable!
Forgot to add the important part. When I bred her, the stud’s owner happened to be a judge and the editor of a breed club magazine, a secretary of a breed club and what not and she was mentoring me since. I joined the club and got involved.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Doubt means no to me. I understand the breeders to be hesitant if you start talking about breeding. Maybe get involved in the sport, go see events, look at dogs you like and talk to their owners about their breeders and the temperament of the dogs. IMO if you are not experienced I would not go for an import or semi import. I would consider this a $300 course in 'How to find a good pup'. This amount is nothing compared to health costs down the road. If you get a pup, put it on Pet insurance asap. Where are you located? This can help us help you find a breeder that you trust more


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Even if the breeder you deal with owns both the female and a male, there is no way short of DNA testing the adults as well as the pups to know who the father is. Just because there is a male in the same home, doesn't mean he is the father. At some point you have to trust what you are being told.

Personally, I don't see any problem here. I own a pup from an imported pregnant female and yes, there were delays with getting papers. The registration organizations are different and it takes a while to sort everything out and get papers from one country to the other.

But if you don't trust the breeder, then you don't need to buy from them. I just feel like you are making more of this than it actually is. And you know where she lives.

If you are thinking of breeding in the future, there are lots of threads here about how to go about that to insure that you are doing the right thing, and that you would be considered a reputable and good breeder.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sigh, you have a long way to go before being a breeder. And you seem to know that. Yes, you want to have your ducks in a row before purchasing a dog for breeding purposes. You want there to be health records, and definitely you want for the dog to be eligible for registration. 

[Omitted enormous post because it probably wouldn't be read]

One last thing, and that is, you have difficulty trusting the breeder, how much difficulty will you have in trusting people to take the puppies that you help come to be? Because it is nothing to trust someone to sell you a dog, compared to letting someone take a puppy away with them, and trusting that person to give them a good home with appropriate training and leadership. By eight weeks, you are attached to these little guys, and you want for them to be loved and treated well. You have to make a LOT of judgement calls. And you will make mistakes and when you do, it will be the dogs that suffer. Your puppy that suffers. The more demands for potential buyers you have will make it that much harder to place your puppies, but it will not make it any more sure that the puppy is going to be successful with them. It will not ensure your pup is not abused or neglected or dumped in a shelter. You can demand a raw diet, for instance, and two weeks into that, the new owner gladly listens to their vet and changes to kibble. You will not know anything about it. Even if it is written in your contract. You can write into the contract that you have a right of first refusal if the new owner chooses to rehome the puppy. But, 3 years down the line, they may not even have your contact information, they may not even consider you, when they are moving to Texas and need to give the dog to relatives. How in the world are you going to be able to trust people with the puppies you have? Do you really think a piece of paper will make any difference at all? People will leave a puppy in a garage and then get rid of it for scratching the car. They're out there, perhaps everywhere, and they get breeders to trust them with their pups. 

I have a good friend who had a litter and the puppies mostly went to work-contacts that she knew well. The one she gave to someone she did not know was returned to her at 1 year old, emaciated, a week after the person asked her to get papers for her. She called me and asked. I told her if she gave the dog to them, and now they want papers, they probably bred her and want to sell the puppies. I'd say no. So they dropped her off, in that condition. I told her she probably is pregnant and she should probably have her spayed immediately before we know for sure. She did. The reason was the health of the puppy, in her emaciated condition, a litter may or may not have survived, but if it did they would take so much from a critter that was still developing. In this case the puppy regained her health and was rehomed to a family member and is doing good. The point is, you have to learn to get a feel for people, and trust them with your puppies, and if you can't get the feel for a breeder, to say yay or nay to, how will you with puppy buyers? That is so much more difficult.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Shaunal76 said:


> Um, ok. So just curious, do you consider finding a huge GSD fourm with lots of registered memebrs, posting questions etc on it to the members, as A form of me trying to do research?
> 
> Just like anyone, I'm not sure of anything from someone I do not know, if it's not in writting.
> 
> I'll just pass on your other post....too early to respond to every...well thought out and properly researched post like that.....🙄


No, you can't expect that everything on this forum is coming from experts or experience. You just can't. The thousands of members are over 20 years in the making, and the vast majority are not here. We have more active members than most GSDs sites maybe, but a lot are brand new to the breed, in that honey moon period, and excited about everything GSD, but with little experience. Some are keyboard jockeys who have plenty of opinions but little knowledge. There is no one going out and checking up on member's backgrounds and dog-histories. For all we know, half of the people here, could be convicts passing time. [They do not let them surf the nets, do they?] 

There are no shortcuts. To research the breed you have to meet dogs and find out what lines they are from and talk to a LOT of people that own them. You need to read some books. And to research breeders, well, I don't know. I would say figure out what you want to do with your dog, and talk to folks who have dogs that are doing that, that you like the look of, and ask them where they got their dog. I am not that interested in what breeders do with their dogs, I am more interested in what other people do with their dogs. Because at that point, I'd be an "other people" with their dog. 

Another thing goes with what Lexie's Mom said, and that is, a reputable breeder, even two years ago, might not be that good today. Life changes, the loss of a spouse or a child, or even a parent, might hurdle someone into a deep dark place. With some folks it doesn't take much to turn that corner, so just buying a dog from the breeder of someone you met with a great dog, may not be good enough. I think visiting the kennel/home and meeting the sire, dam, any other relatives of the sire and dam, or siblings of the puppy you will get is probably a good idea. How does the breeder seem to care about his dogs? What kind of questions is he asking you? Is he just trying to sell a puppy, or is he trying to figure out whether you are going to train and care for the dog properly? Don't be impatient with story telling. Listen to the stories he tells you about the dogs, listen to everything, and tell a few of your own if you can. See, this is what I mean about it being mostly about people. We shouldn't go into dogs because we don't like people. We have to be very tolerant of people. We have to be people-people. Because how else will you ever take the measure of people? The answers are in the stories. Learn to listen properly. It's a life-skill.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> Doubt means no to me. I understand the breeders to be hesitant if you start talking about breeding. Maybe get involved in the sport, go see events, look at dogs you like and talk to their owners about their breeders and the temperament of the dogs. IMO if you are not experienced I would not go for an import or semi import. I would consider this a $300 course in 'How to find a good pup'. This amount is nothing compared to health costs down the road. If you get a pup, put it on Pet insurance asap. Where are you located? This can help us help you find a breeder that you trust more


East Tn between Knoxville, Nashville and Chattanooga.

Yes, as I've stated, I am not planning to breed...I am going to raise my pup, enjoy her and during those first 2 years I will actively gain as much knowledge about breeding as I can....then make a sound judgment on what to do.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

Pawsed said:


> Even if the breeder you deal with owns both the female and a male, there is no way short of DNA testing the adults as well as the pups to know who the father is. Just because there is a male in the same home, doesn't mean he is the father. At some point you have to trust what you are being told.
> 
> Personally, I don't see any problem here. I own a pup from an imported pregnant female and yes, there were delays with getting papers. The registration organizations are different and it takes a while to sort everything out and get papers from one country to the other.
> 
> ...


The delayed papers in order to have a pup registered, is not on top of my totem pole of 'worry'.

What I am a little nervous about is being told the sire and Dam have been tested hips n elbows and DM cleared...but there is no paperwork backing that up.

I did ask how would I know who are the parents, but that's me being curious IF there is a way to find out.

New to this, so that means I have very little knowledge on how things work/go.

It's taken me 5 years to be able to have another pet after my Max died a horrible diabetic death. He was a schnauzer and I had him for 12 years.

So hear I am attempting to learn what I can from the ones that are actually on here to help....and who read my entire posts.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

selzer said:


> Sigh, you have a long way to go before being a breeder. And you seem to know that. Yes, you want to have your ducks in a row before purchasing a dog for breeding purposes. You want there to be health records, and definitely you want for the dog to be eligible for registration.


Yes.
And yes, I've made it perfectly clear that I will have 2+ years to decide what I'd like to do.

There is no perfect answer to the other things you mentioned. Im not a breeder, and I'm going to assume there isnt any breeders that can prevent unfortunate and bad things happening to the pups they sell....if they were to be honest.

Nothing wrong with me posting my worries/concerns/questions I have, before making a purchase.

But, that's every fourm I'm on or have been on. 🙄

Anyway, moving on to the next post..


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

selzer said:


> No, you can't expect that everything on this forum is coming from experts or experience. You just can't. The thousands of members are over 20 years in the making, and the vast majority are not here. We have more active members than most GSDs sites maybe, but a lot are brand new to the breed, in that honey moon period, and excited about everything GSD, but with little experience. Some are keyboard jockeys who have plenty of opinions but little knowledge. There is no one going out and checking up on member's backgrounds and dog-histories. For all we know, half of the people here, could be convicts passing time. [They do not let them surf the nets, do they?]
> 
> There are no shortcuts. To research the breed you have to meet dogs and find out what lines they are from and talk to a LOT of people that own them. You need to read some books. And to research breeders, well, I don't know. I would say figure out what you want to do with your dog, and talk to folks who have dogs that are doing that, that you like the look of, and ask them where they got their dog. I am not that interested in what breeders do with their dogs, I am more interested in what other people do with their dogs. Because at that point, I'd be an "other people" with their dog.
> 
> Another thing goes with what Lexie's Mom said, and that is, a reputable breeder, even two years ago, might not be that good today. Life changes, the loss of a spouse or a child, or even a parent, might hurdle someone into a deep dark place. With some folks it doesn't take much to turn that corner, so just buying a dog from the breeder of someone you met with a great dog, may not be good enough. I think visiting the kennel/home and meeting the sire, dam, any other relatives of the sire and dam, or siblings of the puppy you will get is probably a good idea. How does the breeder seem to care about his dogs? What kind of questions is he asking you? Is he just trying to sell a puppy, or is he trying to figure out whether you are going to train and care for the dog properly? Don't be impatient with story telling. Listen to the stories he tells you about the dogs, listen to everything, and tell a few of your own if you can. See, this is what I mean about it being mostly about people. We shouldn't go into dogs because we don't like people. We have to be very tolerant of people. We have to be people-people. Because how else will you ever take the measure of people? The answers are in the stories. Learn to listen properly. It's a life-skill.


Yes, hence my saying one way to gather information.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Maybe you should do some of your research on the SV. The male and female would not have been bred if they had not been health tested with hips and elbows approved. My understanding is that if they were not tested and approved, the puppies would not be able to be registered with the SV.


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## Torr (Jun 29, 2021)

Shaunal76 ~ I appreciate the fact that you are willing to go through all sorts of hoops and what not to get a pup that meets your expectations. If you find the perfect Sire and Dam and all the health records meet your expectations ,and whatever else you desire, There is no guarantee you are going to get the dog of your dreams. I wish you the best!
As for me, i just wouldn't pay over 1200 tops for a proven quality pup.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Shaunal76 said:


> Yes.
> And yes, I've made it perfectly clear that I will have 2+ years to decide what I'd like to do.
> 
> There is no perfect answer to the other things you mentioned. Im not a breeder, and I'm going to assume there isnt any breeders that can prevent unfortunate and bad things happening to the pups they sell....if they were to be honest.
> ...


"First time shame on you, second time shame on me." Maybe it's part of the nature of internet forums. Maybe it's you. I am not sure what "pretend elitism" is, seems kind of redundant, but you can't expect folks who make GSDs a huge part of their life, and part of that an attempt to preserving the breed, to listen to things like, "I will have 2+ years to decide," like that makes you top of the list of breeder-wannabes, and welcome you with open arms. Most of the folks here think you should leave breeding to the professionals. I am one of the few that think people should work to become an expert on everything Dog/GSD and breed along the way to that goal -- it's a lifelong goal, there is always more to learn and improve. So I feel I am a little more open to potential breeders. 

What I figure, is that if you find a dog with all the ducks in a row, like what you want, you'll never get full registration, unless you import. And if you import without either going there to see the dogs or have someone who is experienced in importing excellent dogs, that has all the GSD contacts over there, than you are going to get garbage. They make them in Germany too. And guess what, you don't get a contract. And if you do, how are you going to get it enforced? 

Whatever, lots of folks come here with the ultimate goal of breeding their purebred dog. Don't feel bad, when I came here, the folks said that the best thing to happen was that my bitch would die and all her pups too. That was before they campaigned to make us friendlier by banning people left and right. Like, the beatings will continue until morale improves. So no one will tell you they hope your dog dies here, now, probably. But, if you can't handle a few posts that are less than completely positive about your intentions, how are you going to deal with potential customers who ask you why they should pay you $1500 for a puppy when they can get one for $400 down the street? If you become a breeder, you will have a lot more hurt than your feelings being twinged by a bunch of strangers on an internet forum. Breeding isn't for the feint of heart. It's bloody hard, if you care. And maybe we get a bit passionate about the breed and about breeding, and maybe that isn't a bad thing.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Torr said:


> Shaunal76 ~ I appreciate the fact that you are willing to go through all sorts of hoops and what not to get a pup that meets your expectations. If you find the perfect Sire and Dam and all the health records meet your expectations ,and whatever else you desire, There is no guarantee you are going to get the dog of your dreams. I wish you the best!
> As for me, i just wouldn't pay over 1200 tops for a proven quality pup.


I would love to know where you are getting a quality pup for $1200.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> I would love to know where you are getting a quality pup for $1200.


I don't know about Canada, but in the US, there are definitely areas, states where things are much more expensive and states where things are much less expensive. If the area is a less expensive area, most things are less expensive including dogs. I don't know how the internet can even the playing field with dogs. Because a lot of the people selling over the net are mills. So, I think a lot of prices do depend on location.


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## Torr (Jun 29, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> I would love to know where you are getting a quality pup for $1200.


A lot of the price is in your ability to negotiate. For many things that have a price tag, that doesn't always mean "The Price Is The Price" Dogs included. This really applies to things that are sold subjectively. Take for instance, an all White GSD vs an All Black GSD. History seems to show that all blacks are typically sold in a higher regard - and price range, quite often.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> I don't know about Canada, but in the US, there are definitely areas, states where things are much more expensive and states where things are much less expensive. If the area is a less expensive area, most things are less expensive including dogs. I don't know how the internet can even the playing field with dogs. Because a lot of the people selling over the net are mills. So, I think a lot of prices do depend on location.


Right. So for a working line the difference between 1800 and 2500.



Torr said:


> A lot of the price is in your ability to negotiate. For many things that have a price tag, that doesn't always mean "The Price Is The Price" Dogs included. This really applies to things that are sold subjectively. Take for instance, an all White GSD vs an All Black GSD. History seems to show that all blacks are typically sold in a higher regard - and price range, quite often.


No quality breeder breeds for color, and no informed buyer would buy based on color.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

While I understand your need for reassurances, they don't really mean squat. By the time you know you have a health problem with a dog, there really isn't anything to do about it other than deal with it.

I think this thread got all sideways because you mentioned breeding your dog. That hits a nerve because there are just so many unethical breeders out there. My mother was a breeder for decades. She started by co owning a female with an experienced breeder and made connections on the show and trial circuits. She worked and trained a lot of dogs and found out what she liked. She then started building a program with an educated goal in mind. 20 years in she was still leaning on her mentors making breeding decisions.

I ended up being a dog trainer on the side for my entire adult life. I was also a handler, trainer and kennel master in the Army. That led to me being a trainer at a large kennels that provides dogs to Special Operations, many government agencies and police departments. All this is to say that I know the kind of dog I want because I have experience with hundreds of dogs.

My current pup is 16 months old. I made the decision about where to get that dog on my relationship with his breeder. I have spent hours on the phone with her and we have a history of talking dogs. I am good friends with the owner of the sire and I kept up with them for 8 years. I had a really good idea of the kind of dog I would get.

What you currently lack is experience in dogs. When you get out and work dogs, watch other dogs work, talk to the owners and trainers about dogs and learn about the breed, it gives you information that you can use to make educated decisions about breeders, lines, particular dogs and particular temperaments.

I think you are putting the paperwork before the dog. You haven't stated your goals for your pup. Do you want to show? Compete? What venue?

The way to get the dog that you want is to first know what you want in a dog, and then search out breeders that are producing what you want in a dog.

Currently, you are putting the cart before the horse. Go to the clubs around you and finds dogs you like. Look into their pedigree and their breeders. Make connections and gain knowledge. It's a long haul game that only starts with your first dog. As you gain experience and knowledge, you will develop opinions about what you like in a dog and what you don't. I know it's not what you want to hear, but it just takes time and experience to get into the breed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What David said. And don't plan on breeding your first dog. Sure make sure everything is right and that you could breed, paperwork-wise, but there are so many things that can stand in your way of breeding him. Excellent hips or A-stamped on parents does not mean that YOUR pup will pass OFA or penn-hip, whichever. Hopefully the testicles are in place when you purchase, but they may not drop until 4 months, maybe longer, maybe not at all. Then you have the first test to your ethics, and you start questioning whether retained testicles are hereditary or just the luck of the draw, it was cold out when the ring closed and your boy was holding them up. Because they go up and down, and if that ring closes when they are up, you have a cryptorchid or monorchid dog. Which most folks who know wouldn't breed because it is a disqualifying fault. 

So your dog drops his testicles, his ears go up without help, his hips pass the x-ray, and you've gotten titles on him to boot. Your ready to breed. Now what bitch are you going to breed. Oh yeah you should really start with a bitch because dogs are a dime a dozen, because dogs can breed a dozen or more bitches in a year's time. So, there are lots of guys out there saying, use my dog, I just want a puppy, no stud fee, etc. The breeder is the dam's owner. So you get your bitch-pup and she comes into heat ok, her x-rays look good, pass OFA, her ears are up, she has no disqualifying faults, and you are ready to find a match who complements her personality, her structure, her pedigree. 

If you own the dog too, and raised him from a pup, the chances of him being the best match for your bitch are slim. But if you use an outside stud you have to trust the owner of the outside stud to let you know what is in your dog's lines, and if he has any major malfunctions. And some people aren't very ethical. And some, hmmmm, aren't unethical, but perhaps kennel blind. They think that if the dog produced EPI or MegE or DM, they think its the bitch. DM is genetic and you can test your dog to see if it is a carrier or clear or affected. And if it is affected and you breed to a clear dog, the pups won't be affected, but some or all will be carriers. If you breed a carrier to an affected dog, you get affected dogs and carriers. If you breed a carrier to a carrier you can get affected dogs and carriers. Some people are not going to tell you everything. They are going to say, yeah you can breed to my boy, if you want, no, he isn't tested. And that, I think is a problem with testing. If the dog fails OFA, you will get the information, but the information may or may not be listed, or you listen to your vet and decide whether or not to send them in. So if you test and you win, you dog is clear, ofa good or better, normal, whatever, than everyone knows it is listed on the OFA or whatever website. But if your dog loses, you can choose not to disclose. And, you can do this because you don't want to dissuade people from using your dog, or because you may think that it wasn't a good test, good positioning, etc. That is pretty extreme form of kennel blindness, but it happens. 

So let's say you found a great dog for your bitch, he has the full complement of testing and is awesome. On top of that let's say he doesn't have an nasty character flaws. And, let's top that off with the dog is a know producer, so he wasn't sterile when puppies were conceived by him in the past. You set it up, you drive 200 miles, you take off work, you breed your bitch. Let's even say you did progesterone testing for the last week and a half every other day and then every day at $100 a pop. You go down there, your bitch does not tear the dog's face off, and you get a tie. And you wait for 20 - 60 minutes for that to be over while you and the breeder exchange stories. And you take your bitch home and mark the calendar. 

Nothing happens. It happens. The stud contract includes a repeat mating if there is no litter, and you repeat all that. And no puppies. Maybe it's the dog. He's a known producer. Maybe you need to go to stud B because Stud A did not produce puppies, that's a second stud fee. And your bitch is a year older. Now your expenses are mounting and you decide not to progesterone test, this stud is closer and you will just breed every other day after she starts flagging, and stop when he loses interest. It doesn't happen and your bitch is getting closer to 4 or is 4. 4 is not a problem, but 5 is. If your bitch gets to be older than five without producing a litter, she shouldn't be bred. Because having a first litter older than five tends to have a lot more complications. And yes, some of those complications can mean you lose your bitch. So the clock is ticking. Some of us like having our own dogs because it is more convenient, and as long as neither sire nor dam has disqualifying faults, at least for that first litter, it may make sense to have the match of convenience before putting all your eggs in one basket. 

Oh and if you go the dog route or the bitch route, you can't come on here and say you want to stud your dog or your looking for a stud for your bitch, that's kind of against the rules. I suppose that by watching people's posts and videos, you might find someone that you may want to PM with a proposed mating. I suppose there is some of that going on, but if it does, it's pretty hush-hush. In fact, most breeders will sell to established breeders a pup on full registration, but they sell to the general public dogs on limited registration. Only they can change that down the line. Some simply won't for any reason, and some might require OFA ratings and titles, and then will be willing to change your registration to full. If they are alive. Actually, getting to know the breeder of your female is probably your best bet if you do want to go down the road of breeding. Keep following back with him or her, and tell of the dog's successes, and maybe down the line, they will be able to find or suggest a stud dog for your bitch. If you get to know them, they can tell you who in the neighborhood not to do business with. Some of that is political, like if you are all members of the same club, people are liked, people are disliked. But some of it is also experience-related. Someone didn't have a litter and they did not provide a repeat mating. No repeat mating when the litter had just one pup and that went for the stud fee. The guy is on the outs with the AKC and the dogs can't be registered. And so forth. A good relationship with the person you buy your pup from can be huge. There is this too, a good breeder may give you a high-flyer -- a pup that they would've kept that they believe will do good in the conformation ring if they know you well enough to trust that you will go that route with their pup. Otherwise they will keep their best puppies, or save them for the people already established in the venue of their choice. Breeding GSDs, there is a kind breaking into it. It's a lot more than buying a dog and buying a bitch and breeding them to make 1500 to 2k puppies. You have to pay your dues. You have to be someone that people want to trust with their lines. 

Your first dog, that should be the dog your have fun with, that you go try stuff with, that you get your feet wet with, that you go to shows or trials with, that you splatter all over your facebook page with. That is the dog that teaches you the most usually. For shepherd owners, the first one is often the toughest to raise. Sometimes not, but the tough ones teach us the most, partly because we need to learn the most. We have to find a good trainer, which can be a great place to get connected with people in the know. With people who show, and people who trial and people who breed. You can brush elbows with the GSD-elite. Yeah we used to go out after training classes with dogs in the car and get to know each other. Some of the owners aren't going to be GSD owners, but usually people up on training. You keep going to training classes and you keep meeting people. If you want to be a breeder, having friends who breed other breeds can be beneficial because when you are scared to death at 2 am with your bitch panting and pushing, you can call those people, because they have been there. And they love dogs. And good people who have regular contact with you, who get to know you, they want you to succeed.


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## poconoman (Dec 7, 2020)

David and Selzer. THANK YOU. That was an incredible in depth explanation and I'm sure that's just the tip of the iceberg. I have no intentions of breeding, but reading all this has made my decision conclusive. NO WAY would I ever think of breeding. Not that I thought about it, just this is an enormous task and tons of dedication. So no. I'll leave it to the professionals. And like you said Selzer, a reputable breeder would not sell on the nets. They want to know to WHOM they're selling to. Interviewed.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

Pawsed said:


> Even if the breeder you deal with owns both the female and a male, there is no way short of DNA testing the adults as well as the pups to know who the father is. Just because there is a male in the same home, doesn't mean he is the father. At some point you have to trust what you are being told.
> 
> Personally, I don't see any problem here. I own a pup from an imported pregnant female and yes, there were delays with getting papers. The registration organizations are different and it takes a while to sort everything out and get papers from one country to the other.
> 
> ...


Hey and ty for the reply.

Oh I'm doing some trusting, I just don't want to go in this possible sale 100% 'blindfolded'.

Yes, I may be making more out of this than one that has experience with these types of dealings would (?) ,.....but that's just part of, well, not having the experience 😉

My breeding thought is this, I want the option IF in 2+ years I decided to push forward.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

selzer said:


> "First time shame on you, second time shame on me." Maybe it's part of the nature of internet forums. Maybe it's you. I am not sure what "pretend elitism" is, seems kind of redundant, but you can't expect folks who make GSDs a huge part of their life, and part of that an attempt to preserving the breed, to listen to things like, "I will have 2+ years to decide," like that makes you top of the list of breeder-wannabes, and welcome you with open arms. Most of the folks here think you should leave breeding to the professionals. I am one of the few that think people should work to become an expert on everything Dog/GSD and breed along the way to that goal -- it's a lifelong goal, there is always more to learn and improve. So I feel I am a little more open to potential breeders.
> 
> What I figure, is that if you find a dog with all the ducks in a row, like what you want, you'll never get full registration, unless you import. And if you import without either going there to see the dogs or have someone who is experienced in importing excellent dogs, that has all the GSD contacts over there, than you are going to get garbage. They make them in Germany too. And guess what, you don't get a contract. And if you do, how are you going to get it enforced?
> 
> Whatever, lots of folks come here with the ultimate goal of breeding their purebred dog. Don't feel bad, when I came here, the folks said that the best thing to happen was that my bitch would die and all her pups too. That was before they campaigned to make us friendlier by banning people left and right. Like, the beatings will continue until morale improves. So no one will tell you they hope your dog dies here, now, probably. But, if you can't handle a few posts that are less than completely positive about your intentions, how are you going to deal with potential customers who ask you why they should pay you $1500 for a puppy when they can get one for $400 down the street? If you become a breeder, you will have a lot more hurt than your feelings being twinged by a bunch of strangers on an internet forum. Breeding isn't for the feint of heart. It's bloody hard, if you care. And maybe we get a bit passionate about the breed and about breeding, and maybe that isn't a bad thing.


Hello,

No true offense, but you do babble A LOT.

I will say yes, smile n nod at the person that 'seems' to be lost in a loop and taking parts of my posts and putting them together in order to....idk, make them have different meanings.

As annoying the smart alecs are, I can take it...and can dish it back......its just unnecessary time consumption, when one is simply trying to get something done.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> I would love to know where you are getting a quality pup for $1200.


Same!! That would be fantastic 🙂


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Knock off the back and forth sniping now.If you have no helpful information skip this post and move on.


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

David Winners said:


> While I understand your need for reassurances, they don't really mean squat. By the time you know you have a health problem with a dog, there really isn't anything to do about it other than deal with it.
> 
> I think this thread got all sideways because you mentioned breeding your dog. That hits a nerve because there are just so many unethical breeders out there. My mother was a breeder for decades. She started by co owning a female with an experienced breeder and made connections on the show and trial circuits. She worked and trained a lot of dogs and found out what she liked. She then started building a program with an educated goal in mind. 20 years in she was still leaning on her mentors making breeding decisions.
> 
> ...


No.

Regardless of my intentions with a pup, I feel I should have the right to know the history. Period.

I don't get treats for going in any 'right order of questioning'...and punished for asking, someone's far fetched opinion on, what's not in order.

Simple. You stated how your family became breeders. Thats nice. Congratulations.

I'm more than sure that's not the only perfect and acceptable way to become a good/great breeder.

And if the elitist would be honest, I'd bet most were not 'born into the business'....

I'm not paying $300 for GSD, Im paying $2500....I think I have a right to ask some questions.....regardless of who likes or doesn't like me mentioning I may or may not breed after I've gained more knowledge/experience etc.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*i’m just going to remind everyone that there is a Report button located by clicking the 3 dots in the top right hand corner of each post. It may be in your best interest to use this button before spending the time to “snap back” and participate in personal attacks, because what happens is this…. a lazy moderator such as myself comes along, notices the chaos, begins to edit posts line by line until it because too much, then i just delete the whole thing - poof, gone, just like that and a bunch of your time has been wasted. additionally, if you click on a persons username, those same 3 dots will reveal an Ignore feature.

you’re welcome.*


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## Shaunal76 (Sep 1, 2021)

Fodder said:


> *i’m just going to remind everyone that there is a Report button located by clicking the 3 dots in the top right hand corner of each post. It may be in your best interest to use this button before spending the time to “snap back” and participate in personal attacks, because what happens is this…. a lazy moderator such as myself comes along, notices the chaos, begins to edit posts line by line until it because too much, then i just delete the whole thing - poof, gone, just like that and a bunch of your time has been wasted. additionally, if you click on a persons username, those same 3 dots will reveal an Ignore feature.
> 
> you’re welcome.*


Ignore is awesome, thx 👍👍


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

To me, the breeder seems to have given you good answers to your questions. I think you may not be understanding the answers you have been provided. 

The SV is nothing like AKC. It's much, much better and has a lot more control of what dogs are bred. Just because a dog is purebred doesn't mean they will register it in their registry, like the AKC does. The dogs in the SV have to pass health and performance and conformation testing to be eligible to be bred. Do your research and you will understand what I and your breeder mean. 

There really should be no need for papers proving that the dogs have been tested. It's the norm in those countries. Dogs that aren't tested and approved for breeding can't have their offspring registered, so those less than acceptable dogs are weeded out pretty quickly. If the dogs are bred under SV regulations, they have been tested and approved. It's understandable that the breeder has no paperwork proving the male has been tested. That's a given with dogs bred in those countries.

Go back to your breeder and ask about all the things that are concerning you. They should be able to explain how things work with these dogs from these countries. Maybe that will help you understand what has been said already.

Best of luck with your pup.


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