# Well that didn't work! The prong collar lessons



## Sabis mom

I was going to buy a prong. Then an acquaintance of my handed over one he bought and never used. 
I have watched the videos, read everything I could find. I was careful to fit it properly and keep it in the right place. It doesn't slide, slip or move. It sits right under her jaw, chain directly behind her ears. I attached the leash and went through the teaching her to yield to it and worked on it in our basement playroom.
Then I sucked up my positive attitude and headed out. Got to the gate, she tried to pull through, I corrected and the fight was on.
She yelped first which made my stomach turn, but I was told to expect it. Then she went rodeo on me. She tried to back out of it, she threw herself on the ground, she tried grabbing the leash, she barked at me, she tried pawing it off. I just let her fight and tried not to put pressure on the leash. 
She gave up fairly quick and we proceeded out on our walk. She isn't giving me much attention, but she walked nicely on a loose leash and showed some respect. We passed a bird, she looked but kept walking. We worked on some obedience and she was quick and responsive. After 20 minutes I was feeling pretty good. Then we saw the dog.
I kept walking gave her a couple of reminders, and should have been warned by her compliance I guess. 
She doesn't care about corrections when other dogs are involved apparently. The other dog was ignoring her, not adding any fuel. 
To be fair her response was limited to barking this time, and I managed to put her in a sit and keep her there. But when we were still walking, she lunged, I corrected and she went nuts. Up on her back feet, air snapping and snarling, diving and lunging. It was only when I put her in a sit that she came in off the ledge. 
I think I waited to long to correct her? Either way clearly that backfired. Her response was worse then normal.


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## Steve Strom

One thing stands out to me. You just put it on and went out to see what would happen. If you're going to work on something or introduce something like the collar, it needs to be controlled and done in a way that you can do one thing at a time. I would have gone through some introduction time with the collar and no distractions first. This is something to think about. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUNg-Vmdme4


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## voodoolamb

> I think I waited to long to correct her?


Sounds like it. My DA pit bull would get more revved up and reactive if I gave a physical correction while he was in the zone so to speak. 

Pain and adrenaline just put him more into drive. I physically could not give him a hard enough correction to get him out of it. I had to correct for showing any interest in other dogs period. He didn't get to look at them.


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## Baillif

Watching every video and reading every book doesn't really prepare you for the real thing. Next time more work inside and then don't give the dog so much room to dart and discover a hard pop on his own before he's ready.


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## Steve Strom

> I attached the leash and went through the teaching her to yield to it and worked on it in our basement playroom.


I kinda missed what I was trying to say Sabis mom. More along the lines of what Baillif is saying, teaching her to yield to a tight line whether its a prong or not isn't the same as a pop. The feeling on her neck, the emotion from you, the physical action of it all is different in her perception.


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## Fodder

adding to what the others have said... there's also no need to suck up your positive attitude - if I'm understanding you correctly. my attitude when working my dogs is the same whether I have a clicker and treats or a prong collar on. my goal for all training sessions is to be fun, upbeat, positive and engaging. dogs live in the moment... if the need comes to correct them, I do what I need to get their focus back on me, then return to the positive as quickly as possible. no anger, frustration, grudges or anything.

I never leave my house expecting or looking for the opportunity or reason to correct. engagement and rewards is always a priority.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Well I am sure there might be better ways to do this but I am introducing it to my puppy on a double ended lead, one clipped to his regular collar. That way if he loses it over something or charges out and I don't want him to hit the prong that hard, I can catch him on the flat collar and then correct him on the prong if I need to at whatever level I choose vs his just hitting the collar full force. What you described was exactly what I didn't want my puppy to do

I have been working him in low distraction environments and actually haven't had to catch him with the flat, but it does make me feel better knowing I could.

He isn't reactive to other dogs but just recently realized how big and strong he is and did rear up like an idiot flailing around when we passed my neighbor's dog (that he knows and plays with) this is obviously not acceptable behavior, he was just being a fool and he will do the same thing on his head halter so I knew it was time to kind of lay down the law and let him know his little rearing routine won't fly with me. I think he learned it because she ran up to him offleash once and they started trying to play while I was walking him.

I took him to the park where I can see other dogs coming and put the right amount of space where he gets a little excited but not too stupid and I can let him know with the prong that he can't be throwing his weight around with me.


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## Jenny720

I have not had any bad reaction to the prong and my dog is dog reactive. I correct before as a reminder to keep himself together


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## LuvShepherds

Patience and practice. It takes a while to learn how to use one. I make sure my dog understands what it's going to feel like when he gets to the end of the leash. We used it in the yard with no distractions for about a week before I tried it on a walk. I also use it in obedience, in a controlled environment.


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## Sabis mom

Well, thanks for the feedback.

Let me clear up a few things though.
I have been using it for 3 days in the basement and the yard. I didn't just 'slap it on and go'.
I never let her run to the end of the leash and figure it out herself. She was walking nicely beside me on a few inches of slack. 
I am fairly sure that I misread her initial compliance when she saw the dog and waited to long to correct, because when she saw the bird she looked but didn't react. 

I will go back to just the yard for now, and keep trying.
I don't have access to a trainer at the moment, she isn't spayed so no one around here will work with her. So I read and watch, because that's all I can do. I realize that it isn't a perfect system but it's all I have.


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## Sabis mom

Fodder said:


> adding to what the others have said... there's also no need to suck up your positive attitude - if I'm understanding you correctly. my attitude when working my dogs is the same whether I have a clicker and treats or a prong collar on. my goal for all training sessions is to be fun, upbeat, positive and engaging. dogs live in the moment... if the need comes to correct them, I do what I need to get their focus back on me, then return to the positive as quickly as possible. no anger, frustration, grudges or anything.
> 
> I never leave my house expecting or looking for the opportunity or reason to correct. engagement and rewards is always a priority.


Fodder, I have some issues that make being out and about uncomfortable. 
When I add the fact that Shadow explodes in a blink, and that she has done permanent damage to my shoulder with her foolishness, yes I need to suck up a positive attitude. Not perhaps in the sense that you are thinking but in that I need to muster all my spirit as it were, because I don't want to get upset and have her feeding off that.


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## Fodder

^ok, my apologies, I definitely understood it to mean the opposite of what you're saying above.


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## Chip18

Sabis mom said:


> Well, thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Let me clear up a few things though.
> I have been using it for 3 days in the basement and the yard. I didn't just 'slap it on and go'.
> I never let her run to the end of the leash and figure it out herself. She was walking nicely beside me on a few inches of slack.
> I am fairly sure that I misread her initial compliance when she saw the dog and waited to long to correct, because when she saw the bird she looked but didn't react.
> 
> I will go back to just the yard for now, and keep trying.
> I don't have access to a trainer at the moment, she isn't spayed so no one around here will work with her.* So I read and watch, because that's all I can do. *I realize that it isn't a perfect system but it's all I have.


LOL ...well cue me! :laugh2:

You seem to already realize your mistake (late timing) but for others the potential problem with "Prongs" ... *put drive in or take drive out* it got elaborated on by Slamdunc:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7828833-post521.html

Some trainers have seen people struggle with "Prong Collar" corrections even with eyes on instructions and "apparently" decided "screw it" just use a Pet Convincer" :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfiDe0GNnLQ

And you may find something useful in here:
Teach your Dog to ignore other dogs.  - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

Keep us posted.


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## SuperG

Sabis mom,

First, I can appreciate the frustration as I have been down the path of dealing with a reactive dog.....it was a new experience for me and I made myself vulnerable to all the "fixes" and the "guarantees" many trainers offered.
Because of my basic nature....I pursued the least aversive methods first....these methods may work on a very mild reactive dog but didn't seem to be the ticket for me and my dog...so I proceeded to the next method and "guarantees"....basically about the same story....some improvement but still not acceptable as far as I was concerned. I even compromised my "basic nature" and did the e-collar method ....once again...some improvement but still not what I was willing to accept as a final solution. Actually, the biggest improvements in her reactivity came through all the obedience work we did...the more obedient she was....the easier it was to keep her check with her reactivity....made sense to me. But, still not there yet,

My good fortune brought me across a gentleman ...a retired LE K9 handler who still trains LE dogs....I told him my story and he took me under his wing....he had me attend some K9 training sessions and worked with me during their lunch breaks. This is where I was introduced to the dominant dog collar and the proper way to use it for dog reactivity. I have found the answer as the two trainers who deal with me seriously know the breed and how to deal with this issue....plus it's great being around a bunch of high drive dogs which most all of them had similar reactivity issues as mine earlier on in their training...if not a ton more. Being in that environment was living proof...the "guarantee" was right there in front of my eyes. 

Now to bore you more...some observations and realizations. My use of the prong to correct this problem most likely was just ramping the dog up unless I caught the dog well before she was about to light up. The correction from a prong if she was full on...would probably need to be more severe than I was providing...and worse yet..when I would get closer to that level...I was anything but calm and composed....my emotions were running high as well...it was a lose/lose situation. The use of the dominant dog collar and application is entirely different......no yanking...none...just steady upward pressure AND in doing this....it had an effect on me...I was keeping my cool....

I had heard in here at times thoughts such as ..." a few potent well-timed corrections is infinitely better than many ineffective lesser corrections"....I understand that now...I obviously didn't then. Yeah, I might annoy my dog using lesser prong pops at times but it isn't to deal with issues like reactivity...more just to keep the dog in line with obedience skills if she is having an off day.

I also remember Slamdunc stating that most handlers think their dogs are more severe in their reactivity than they truly are.....this I have found to be true in my situation...I base it on the fact that the amount of full corrections I have had to use with the DDC is incredibly less than any other method previous......I'm talking like a total of 6-10 full uses of the DDC to date...and the results are better than all the rest of the methods combined...yeah, much of it could have been handler error on my behalf but I was under the tutelage of "professional" trainers...that's the excuse I'm going with:grin2:

Just a suggestion, if you could check around with your local LE and find out who or where they get their K9 training done...it might open some doors and help you out tremendously. I know they aren't necessarily in the business of training JQP's dogs....but if you are lucky enough to find something like I did....I'd give it a try. Like I said above....these folks truly know the breed and know their training and they don't patronize you or sugarcoat your failings in the process...I like this fact.....plus they are incredibly nice people...especially to ones with GSDs and Mals.

SuperG


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## Mary Beth

Oh my, I do understand. My Sting would have been just as bad but finished off his antics with one mighty lunge that would have pulled the leash out of my hands (easy with his 126 lbs to my 100 lbs) and got to the other dog. There are no trainers in my area so I have to learn like you do. Lucky for me, my neighbor whose lab/pointer is a handful told me she uses a front ring harness. So I researched them. The harness and method I have been using for over 5 years is the Walk In Sync by Colorado trainer Alecia Evans  https://dogwalkinsync.com/ She developed the method and harness because her first dog, a big lab, was a strong puller. The harness and leash also includes free videos to show how to use it. I had nothing to lose as it comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. My Sting isn't a puller but a lunger - one second sitting so nicely, the next second lunge . It did work. When he saw another dog - the harness seemed to push him back - actually it is based on the theory that a dog does not want to push against something - since his impulse to lunge was checked I could then either turn suddenly or if that wasn't possible - have him sit. I don't have to worry about timing corrections or if they are too hard or too light. To me it is like using a hackamore on a horse instead of a severe bit. It works for me and so, I just wanted to suggest it is another alternative.


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## Sabis mom

Wow. some really good ideas.

Shadow is not mildly reactive. And she isn't playing. In response to another dog I get pulling, lunging, snarling, frothing at the mouth. She will pull hard enough to literally be almost on her side trying to get at them. She will flip herself completely over. I had thought when she was younger maybe it was just excitement, nope. Thank goodness she was muzzled. I found out she could walk, and jog, backwards when I tried the 'just keep walking'. She has focus.
I have been using an easywalk harness, but she can snake her way out of it.
I stopped using a choke when she choked herself unconscious. 
I tried a halti, but I was concerned about neck damage when she starts flipping around. Because if you control the head you control the horse, I thought it seemed plausible that the same was true for dogs. Not.
I taught her not to chase cars using an empty pop can with some rocks in it. I tied it to her leash just a few inches from her. Every time she lunged it rattled and snapped her out of it. It worked well, and fast. But with dogs it just made her angrier.
So the prong was sort of do or die for us. I will keep working in the yard and try to master this.
It did apparently work to stop the bird chasing, so clearly the hunting of birds is just a game. The hunting of dogs is life or death.


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## Steve Strom

> I have been using it for 3 days in the basement and the yard. I didn't just 'slap it on and go'.


I didn't choose my words very well, I was hunting around for that video. My only point was the leash pressure stuff really doesn't have much to do with the way you went out to use the collar. If you were going to go that route with it, which to me seems like a waste of time, you needed to stick with that use. 

That video shows a pretty simple intro to the entire action of a correction. You can end up with the collar itself not being that important. A fursaver will get the same reaction from your dog as a prong or anything else. The total picture of it will keep it clear for her.


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## SuperG

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow is not mildly reactive. And she isn't playing. In response to another dog I get pulling, lunging, snarling, frothing at the mouth. She will pull hard enough to literally be almost on her side trying to get at them. She will flip herself completely over


Sounds just like how my girl was.....pretty intimidating and certainly sending her best signals to the other dog.....you don't want to mess with me attitude no doubt. Has she ever come up the leash at you during her antics? or blindly bitten you during her bouts of directed aggression at the other dog?

SuperG


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## Steve Strom

Sabis mom said:


> Fodder, I have some issues that make being out and about uncomfortable.
> When I add the fact that Shadow explodes in a blink, and that she has done permanent damage to my shoulder with her foolishness, yes I need to suck up a positive attitude. Not perhaps in the sense that you are thinking but in that I need to muster all my spirit as it were, because I don't want to get upset and have her feeding off that.


How about an ecollar? Its easier on your shoulders and the impersonal nature of it makes it less stress for you and less for her to feed off.


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## Niexist

It's funny how different dogs react differently to a prong. For instance I only put on the prong when doing Fus training, and for the most part just to keep Judith from straying off, or pulling while trying to Fus. She's a very calm pup, and my trainer says she has great focus, so I've never experienced her trying to pull against the prong collar even once.


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## Sabis mom

Steve Strom said:


> I didn't choose my words very well, I was hunting around for that video. My only point was the leash pressure stuff really doesn't have much to do with the way you went out to use the collar. If you were going to go that route with it, which to me seems like a waste of time, you needed to stick with that use.
> 
> That video shows a pretty simple intro to the entire action of a correction. You can end up with the collar itself not being that important. A fursaver will get the same reaction from your dog as a prong or anything else. The total picture of it will keep it clear for her.


I did watch the video, thanks for that. I will watch it a few more times tonight. I get the concept. I just thought it was 'nicer' to let her know what she the prong was.



SuperG said:


> Sounds just like how my girl was.....pretty intimidating and certainly sending her best signals to the other dog.....you don't want to mess with me attitude no doubt. Has she ever come up the leash at you during her antics? or blindly bitten you during her bouts of directed aggression at the other dog?
> 
> SuperG


Yes. She will redirect. It's funny though, she nailed me good a few times and I responded not well. Even freaking out, she will now temper her snaps at me to something that stings but doesn't do damage. But on the whole she has no problem biting people. 



Steve Strom said:


> How about an ecollar? Its easier on your shoulders and the impersonal nature of it makes it less stress for you and less for her to feed off.


I tried the ecollar a few years back. I screwed up and she got collar wise. If I put one on her even now, she just glues herself to me and will not leave. I over did the recall training because it seemed inconceivable to me that she got it in two tries.
This dog is smart. Really smart. And she has me totally trained.:frown2:


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## Muskeg

I'd suggest trying the e-collar again, except layer it over leash pressure and corrections this time and leave it on her for a few days if you have to get her un-collar wise. I don't do the low stim stuff with the e-collar, I use it as a correction, once the dog knows and understands corrections and the command I'm pairing it with.


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## Sabis mom

I described Shadow as a sweet, smart dog with no coping skills.

Even mild, harmless stimulus gets a completely over the top reaction.

I have never believed and still don't that this is an aggressive dog. Or a dog that is a waste. I believe that this is a dog who honestly believes that she is in mortal danger from other dogs and is going on the offensive, fighting for her life in her mind. I hesitated over the prong because I didn't want to add to that sense of fear with a painful correction. 

But...

If I can't control her, we are at a standstill. I need to be able to walk her to convince her no harm will come to her and in order to walk her I need to be able to control her.
Again, I have owned this dog literally all her life. I have studied her and watched her reactions all her life. She is genuinely afraid. I have no doubt that in the hands of a better person she could be something spectacular. Catch 22. In the hands of a more experienced person she may well have been put down that first night, and maybe I did her a disservice by keeping her alive, but that ship has sailed. I love this little dog beyond all reason, have from the second I first held her in my hands.
So here we are, doing the best we can.


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## LuvShepherds

Why aren't you using a trainer? We can only help so much on a message board. When you don't know how to use a training tool and your dog is acting out, the only solution is a good trainer who can observe you and your dog and help you figure out the best way to teach her that other dogs are not a threat.


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## Sabis mom

LuvShepherds said:


> Why aren't you using a trainer? We can only help so much on a message board. When you don't know how to use a training tool and your dog is acting out, the only solution is a good trainer who can observe you and your dog and help you figure out the best way to teach her that other dogs are not a threat.


Because even if I had the money to pay for a trainer, the trainers in this area mostly fall into two groups. Clicker or teach her who's boss. And the first thing they all say is get her spayed then come back. I have been told that she is just poorly bred and should be put down, I have been told to get rid of her, I have even been offered a replacement.

No trainers.


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## SuperG

Sabis mom said:


> I have been told that she is just poorly bred and should be put down, I have been told to get rid of her, I have even been offered a replacement.
> 
> No trainers.



That sound harsh.....hard to believe you have to deal with that.....I'd reach out farther.

SuperG


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## DutchKarin

I just wonder if you work really hard on consistency and clarity that you won't get her through the adjustment period. I think that she did not generalize the work you did inside with the prong to going to the outside. It was as if it was a brand new thing to her. (Dogs are bad at generalizing on their own) I just wonder about staging some walks with a friends' dogs at a distance that you can help her get used to the idea of "behave and do your job or get a correction."
Consistency and persistence.

I have a rescue GSD that has a pretty strong fight or flight reaction. Pretty dramatic when she is scared. We have worked with an ecollar and initially she freaked. I kept her at low stim and she got used to it. I know it was not hurting her (at a 8 or 10 I can stim myself and barely feel it). She wears a bark collar when I'm not here and she has access to the outside. It is at the lowest stim level. First couple of times it totally freaked her out. Now she takes the collar fine and at times barks through the stim but doesn't do that incessant barking. She is fine now with it. Just kept with it because she needs to do her job.

One other thing I thought of is that the cheap chinese made prongs are a bit sharp. I would only work with a Herm Sprenger. The prongs are not sharp and the quality is so much better. Those cheap ones scare me.

Good luck.


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## Sabis mom

The comments have been repeated numerous times Super G.

We will continue to work with the prong, I will keep trying to get better at it. We went for a walk today and did ok. But no other dogs appeared. I won't give up on her, she isn't giving up on me.


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## SuperG

Sabis mom said:


> We will continue . I won't give up on her, she isn't giving up on me.


Never doubted you for a second...you've got a great heart for the dog you share your life with....

SuperG


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## Sabis mom

Couple more short sessions today. Mostly in the yard, working on paying attention. She did good. All the birds flying around and she stayed focused on me. Went for a little tour around the block. Worked on her ignoring people, she still wants to watch them, ears are flicking, but she kept her eyes forward and stayed on a loose leash by my side.
It amazes me that she can split her focus like that. I can't trick her with direction changes or speed changes, but she is clearly paying attention to the person walking behind us. 
In the yard, I get her to focus by tucking a toy under my arm and she does fantastic off leash. But I haven't been able to translate that to outside the gate, obviously on leash.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Leerburg has online classes & one is leash reactivity with Tyler Muto, which I believe instructs you on using both the prong and e collar for this problem.

I'm pretty sure there isn't an interactive one coming up where you actually send in your video for critique, but self study costs less and might give you some new skills?


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## LuvShepherds

Sabis mom said:


> I described Shadow as a sweet, smart dog with no coping skills.
> 
> Even mild, harmless stimulus gets a completely over the top reaction.
> 
> I have never believed and still don't that this is an aggressive dog. Or a dog that is a waste. I believe that this is a dog who honestly believes that she is in mortal danger from other dogs and is going on the offensive, fighting for her life in her mind. I hesitated over the prong because I didn't want to add to that sense of fear with a painful correction.
> 
> But...
> 
> If I can't control her, we are at a standstill. I need to be able to walk her to convince her no harm will come to her and in order to walk her I need to be able to control her.
> Again, I have owned this dog literally all her life. I have studied her and watched her reactions all her life. She is genuinely afraid. I have no doubt that in the hands of a better person she could be something spectacular. Catch 22. In the hands of a more experienced person she may well have been put down that first night, and maybe I did her a disservice by keeping her alive, but that ship has sailed. I love this little dog beyond all reason, have from the second I first held her in my hands.
> So here we are, doing the best we can.


You're right, if you can't control her you can't do anything with her on leash. Since you can't seem to find a trainer who will work with you or an unspayed dog, I'll share what we paid to find out. I hope you can use it. Our puppy was leash reactive due to my mistakes. When he was very young, I didn't correct him because I was trying to use positive training. Big mistake. I also didn't remove him from scary situations because I didn't realize what triggered fear. He didn't seem fearful he seemed confused, so I thought more exposure would help. But I let him get too close to his triggers without giving him an escape route.

The trainer said to flood him with so many dogs he couldn't react to them all in a crowded place with exit routes. We went to a popular dog walking park with a lot of empty spaces. I watched for him to start to react, and immediately turned around and walked away toward an area with no dogs. Every time he began to react, I removed the threat. I did that for almost two hours. Then I found a dog he liked, to walk with us. That solved the problem and he gained confidence. It's not a one time solution, we still do this desensitizing on a regular basis.


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## Slamdunc

Steve Strom said:


> One thing stands out to me. You just put it on and went out to see what would happen. If you're going to work on something or introduce something like the collar, it needs to be controlled and done in a way that you can do one thing at a time. I would have gone through some introduction time with the collar and no distractions first. This is something to think about.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUNg-Vmdme4


Steve,
That is an excellent post and video. I really like Joanne Plumb's stuff.


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## Sabis mom

LuvShepherds said:


> You're right, if you can't control her you can't do anything with her on leash. Since you can't seem to find a trainer who will work with you or an unspayed dog, I'll share what we paid to find out. I hope you can use it. Our puppy was leash reactive due to my mistakes. When he was very young, I didn't correct him because I was trying to use positive training. Big mistake. I also didn't remove him from scary situations because I didn't realize what triggered fear. He didn't seem fearful he seemed confused, so I thought more exposure would help. But I let him get too close to his triggers without giving him an escape route.
> 
> The trainer said to flood him with so many dogs he couldn't react to them all in a crowded place with exit routes. We went to a popular dog walking park with a lot of empty spaces. I watched for him to start to react, and immediately turned around and walked away toward an area with no dogs. Every time he began to react, I removed the threat. I did that for almost two hours. Then I found a dog he liked, to walk with us. That solved the problem and he gained confidence. It's not a one time solution, we still do this desensitizing on a regular basis.


I have a dog park a block away. But do I want to take her there with the prong on? Or just her muzzle and harness? 
Shadow has been attacked on leash a few times, so I don't blame her for being dog aggressive. It also seems like dogs react oddly to her. Dogs that I KNOW are good with other dogs attack her.
Thank you:smile2:


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## Steve Strom

Sabis mom said:


> I have a dog park a block away. But do I want to take her there with the prong on? Or just her muzzle and harness?
> Shadow has been attacked on leash a few times, so I don't blame her for being dog aggressive. It also seems like dogs react oddly to her. Dogs that I KNOW are good with other dogs attack her.
> Thank you:smile2:


I think nervy, fearful dogs are targets. Bluntly, but respectfully, make up your mind. If you're going to train her, put the harness away and train her. Stick with something. Be smart about what she can handle and use some distance. Don't throw her into the middle of a bunch of dogs. Some people like flooding like that, its too tough for me.


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## Steve Strom

Slamdunc said:


> Steve,
> That is an excellent post and video. I really like Joanne Plumb's stuff.


Yeah, thats a pretty simple little drill. I'm surprised its still online.


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## Sabis mom

Steve Strom said:


> I think nervy, fearful dogs are targets. Bluntly, but respectfully, make up your mind. If you're going to train her, put the harness away and train her. Stick with something. Be smart about what she can handle and use some distance. Don't throw her into the middle of a bunch of dogs. Some people like flooding like that, its too tough for me.


Steve, I won't fall down sobbing. Be as blunt as you like. 

I avoided the flooding route, I used it with horses and IMO it is more likely to shut down a truly frightened animal then fix it. A lot of people recommend it though, and at this point I am over my head, with a dog who probably spends half her life frightened and on edge.
I liked the harness for taking the strain of my arm and shoulder but it wasn't fixing anything.
We did another round with the prong this morning and one just now. I see improvement. She is willing to ignore people, and birds. Cats and bunnies still put her on her toes. But she turned willing away from a dog half a block away after a firm correction. Some ear flicking but she didn't try anything. 
We did some obedience and she is getting closer. Stubborn witch.


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## LuvShepherds

Steve Strom said:


> I think nervy, fearful dogs are targets. Bluntly, but respectfully, make up your mind. If you're going to train her, put the harness away and train her. Stick with something. Be smart about what she can handle and use some distance. Don't throw her into the middle of a bunch of dogs. Some people like flooding like that, its too tough for me.


I flood from a distance not in the middle of a pack of dogs. Maybe flooding is the wrong word. I will change it to "exposure." The point being if I expose my dog to one dog that is barking and out of control, he will focus on that dog and I have a problem to deal with. If we are in a park with ten or twenty other dogs at a distance we can approach and recede over and over again where my dog never gets too close and never reacts because I can walk away before he gets into full reactivity. I watch him for signs and if he starts to show fear or aggression or lunging, I turn around and we walk away. That forces him to focus on me and develop trust. He has gradually learned that dogs on leashes in a park are not a danger and he barely reacts at all anymore.


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## Steve Strom

You aren't over your head. You're just hunting around looking for a fix. Stick with obedience. You tell her to sit, she has to sit. Eventually no matter what else is going on. At some point she has to just deal with whatever, but its a lot easier to make the obedience solid, then slowly add the problems like any other distraction.


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## Steve Strom

LuvShepherds said:


> I flood from a distance not in the middle of a pack of dogs. Maybe flooding is the wrong word. I will change it to "exposure." The point being if I expose my dog to one dog that is barking and out of control, he will focus on that dog and I have a problem to deal with. If we are in a park with ten or twenty other dogs at a distance we can approach and recede over and over again where my dog never gets too close and never reacts because I can walk away before he gets into full reactivity. I watch him for signs and if he starts to show fear or aggression or lunging, I turn around and we walk away. That forces him to focus on me and develop trust. He has gradually learned that dogs on leashes in a park are not a danger and he barely reacts at all anymore.


At a distance with a plan though LS. Not just putting on a muzzle and going into a dog park is all I meant.


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## LuvShepherds

Sabis mom said:


> I have a dog park a block away. But do I want to take her there with the prong on? Or just her muzzle and harness?
> Shadow has been attacked on leash a few times, so I don't blame her for being dog aggressive. It also seems like dogs react oddly to her. Dogs that I KNOW are good with other dogs attack her.
> Thank you:smile2:


Dogs react to the signals she is giving off. As an example, my female growls at dogs that she thinks are invading her space. I use a controlled cageless kennel to dogs it when I'm out of town. My dogs are used to it. The owner told me my female has very good dog communication skills and her growls aren't aggression but are her way to taking to other dogs. The other dogs respect her and she has never had a problem there. Somehow your dog needs to develop skills so she is not making herself a target.

I don't like dog parks because you are turning over a fearful dog to a set of random circumstances. Unless the dogs are all friendly and have good dog skills, you can make it worse. Once you remove the leash, you have no control over what the dog experiences. All it takes is one attack to cause even more problems than you already have.

I find it much easier to train when someone shows me what to do and I can copy it. Since you can't access a trainer, you need to become skilled on your own. There are very skilled trainers here offering to help you. Steve is one. So is SlamDunc. Listen to them and others and ask questions. I'm not a trainer but I have trained a lot of my own dogs with varying levels of success.


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## LuvShepherds

Steve Strom said:


> At a distance with a plan though LS. Not just putting on a muzzle and going into a dog park is all I meant.


Definitely! I also take a lot of time with my dogs. It can be repetitive and boring for me, doing the same thing over and over again. My GSDs are smart dogs, but they learn and reinforce by rote. The more I do something right, the more solid it becomes but it takes a long time. I watched a Jeff Gellman video and he said it takes about one year to be solid on a challenging task. That is in line with what my trainer says. If we can prevent our dog from being reactive for a year, we can be sure the behavior has been learned.

A muzzle is just a piece of plastic. We need to learn to use it correctly.


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## LuvShepherds

Typo in my cageless kennel post: "dogs it" should be "dog sit."


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## Sabis mom

Steve Strom said:


> You aren't over your head. You're just hunting around looking for a fix. Stick with obedience. You tell her to sit, she has to sit. Eventually no matter what else is going on. At some point she has to just deal with whatever, but its a lot easier to make the obedience solid, then slowly add the problems like any other distraction.


So keep doing what I'm doing? Baby steps, stay on top of the obedience, keep distractions at a distance for now? I can edge her closer to the dog park without taking her to it.

We are out 3-4 times a day for 15-20 minutes, staying close to home, gradually increasing distance from her safe place and trying to avoid dogs getting to far into her zone.
I see no signs of stress or fear, in fact when I pick up the prong she gets excited and wants to go. I think the fights we had the other day were part surprise and part just bratty 'don't tell me what to do'.


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## LuvShepherds

Sabis mom said:


> So keep doing what I'm doing? Baby steps, stay on top of the obedience, keep distractions at a distance for now? I can edge her closer to the dog park without taking her to it.
> 
> We are out 3-4 times a day for 15-20 minutes, staying close to home, gradually increasing distance from her safe place and trying to avoid dogs getting to far into her zone.
> I see no signs of stress or fear, in fact when I pick up the prong she gets excited and wants to go. I think the fights we had the other day were part surprise and part just bratty 'don't tell me what to do'.


Do that for six months or a year. The more successes you have, the more she will like it. It's not a quick fix.


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## Sabis mom

LuvShepherds said:


> Do that for six months or a year. The more successes you have, the more she will like it. It's not a quick fix.


I am not looking for a quick fix. I feel bad that I waited so long to try this. But honestly as soft and skittish as she was as a young dog, I don't think this would have helped. I have done a lot of building her confidence and up until probably a year ago me frowning turned her into a quivering, cowering mess.


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## LuvShepherds

Sabis mom said:


> I am not looking for a quick fix. I feel bad that I waited so long to try this. But honestly as soft and skittish as she was as a young dog, I don't think this would have helped. I have done a lot of building her confidence and up until probably a year ago me frowning turned her into a quivering, cowering mess.


It would have helped but you can't go backwards. Keep doing what you have started. My special trainer said the earlier you start working on fears the sooner your dog gets over them. I found when I had one problem one time, it was usually the dog but if I had the same problem with more than one dog, I was the problem, not the dog. We tend to think we are doing the right things so we do more of the same when the dog needs a different approach.

Once I listened to the trainer that I am the problem, the dog isn't, I was more open to making distinct changes. We had a class trainer who didn't like my dog's reactive behavior in the class setting. I explained reasonably that if they didn't allow the other dogs to bark at my dog, mine would not be misbehaving. The trainer stopped the lesson, told me that there are no excuses in dog training, and I needed to fix the problem or leave. I was shocked and very upset, as you can imagine. But once I got over being embarrassed publicly, I called our private trainer for a one on one and found out the class trainer was right. Rude, but right. 

That's when I started doing what I explained above. I never needed it with my earlier dogs because they were all easy, nonreactive, mellow and confident dogs. But I did have a few problem rescues and looking back, I know it was partly my stubborn fault.

It's very hard to come in here, expect support and then hear we have screwed up. I posted a while ago about my dog barking at a child in a store and I corrected him. The consensus was that I should have walked away. When it happened again in class, and I called the trainer, he said the same thing, that the people here on the board were right and I was wrong.


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## Steve Strom

Sabis mom said:


> I am not looking for a quick fix. I feel bad that I waited so long to try this. But honestly as soft and skittish as she was as a young dog, I don't think this would have helped. I have done a lot of building her confidence and up until probably a year ago me frowning turned her into a quivering, cowering mess.


In general, because there's always exceptions to everything, clarity brings confidence. Be consistent. And I'm not a trainer. I'm a truck driver.


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## Sabis mom

Steve Strom said:


> In general, because there's always exceptions to everything, clarity brings confidence. Be consistent. And I'm not a trainer. I'm a truck driver.


Some of my favorite people are truck drivers:smile2: I work for FedEx!

Whatever you are I appreciate the advice and guidance. I just want what's best for my dog.


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## Sabis mom

And we just came back from our last walk for the day. Got within a quarter block of a yappy little dog and all I got was a huff and a bounce. I corrected, turned back the other way and she settled right in beside me! Trotted along like she'd been doing it all her life. Kids playing, nothing. Guy watering his lawn, nothing. Birds flying in front of her, nothing.
More importantly when I pick up the prong she is excited! Wants me to put it on her so we can go. Need to work on toning down the excitement, but I am pretty happy with things so far.


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## mego

new dogs i start out on 2 leashes, one on the prong, one on the flat. If they go to lunge I make sure they hit the flat and then introduce the prong slowly with the other leash and when it's a controlled situation.


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## ksotto333

Sabis mom said:


> And we just came back from our last walk for the day. Got within a quarter block of a yappy little dog and all I got was a huff and a bounce. I corrected, turned back the other way and she settled right in beside me! Trotted along like she'd been doing it all her life. Kids playing, nothing. Guy watering his lawn, nothing. Birds flying in front of her, nothing.
> More importantly when I pick up the prong she is excited! Wants me to put it on her so we can go. Need to work on toning down the excitement, but I am pretty happy with things so far.


Good for you guys! Great way to end the day.


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## Blitzkrieg1

When you use a prong you get 60/40 split generally. 60% take to the collar very quickly minimal issues, then you have the 40% that want to squeal, alligator roll, bite the leash, freeze, or in some cases nip at the handler. These are all protest behaviours, I continue the pressure through all these behaviours until the dog shows me what I want. They come as no surprise and if you just roll right through them they quickly fade.

Another little trick I will use for dog reactive dogs that want to ignore the prong completely..I have a few of those, is the other end of my leash. Dog reacts and tries to lunge...whap..other end of the leash used like a riding crop across the nose. That usually settles them down. I dont take these dogs into a dog park, though that could be done with an e collar and muzzle then just e collar if you are so inclined. However I will pass other dogs on the street right of the bat and just punish any reactivity. Initially it can be challenging but the more your dog does it the easier it gets. The key is never give up.


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## Blitzkrieg1

One last thing.
Super sensitive or soft type dogs like to use freezing and shutting down as a way to turn off the pressure whether its a prong or ecollar generally after they have tried the protest behaviours already mentioned above. For me freezing is also a protest behaviour. I will pressure a dog even harder for freezing or shutting down and that pressure will continue to escalate until the dog is moving. The worst thing you can do with a sensitive or soft type dog is give up or let off the pressure when they shut down. When you do that you just taught them something. 
Believe it or not when you force a dog out of shut down mode through pressure they tend to actually show more confidence in the end. Why? Because they truly understand how to make the pressure stop. If the dog knows what causes the pressure and how to make it stop why should he be worried?
I dont mind when a soft dog shuts down on me, if anything its an opportunity to make him more confident in the end.


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## LuvShepherds

Sabis mom said:


> And we just came back from our last walk for the day. Got within a quarter block of a yappy little dog and all I got was a huff and a bounce. I corrected, turned back the other way and she settled right in beside me! Trotted along like she'd been doing it all her life. Kids playing, nothing. Guy watering his lawn, nothing. Birds flying in front of her, nothing.
> More importantly when I pick up the prong she is excited! Wants me to put it on her so we can go. Need to work on toning down the excitement, but I am pretty happy with things so far.


Good work! Now, please don't assume the dogs problems are fixed. I said yesterday it takes a long time and many successes before the behavior is permanent. If you throw her back into the same setting where you had problems in the same way, the behaviors will come back, only this time, she won't trust you anymore. Please behave as if she was going to be reactive, watch her and if you see any signs, act before she does.


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## Sabis mom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> One last thing.
> Super sensitive or soft type dogs like to use freezing and shutting down as a way to turn off the pressure whether its a prong or ecollar generally after they have tried the protest behaviours already mentioned above. For me freezing is also a protest behaviour. I will pressure a dog even harder for freezing or shutting down and that pressure will continue to escalate until the dog is moving. The worst thing you can do with a sensitive or soft type dog is give up or let off the pressure when they shut down. When you do that you just taught them something.
> Believe it or not when you force a dog out of shut down mode through pressure they tend to actually show more confidence in the end. Why? Because they truly understand how to make the pressure stop. If the dog knows what causes the pressure and how to make it stop why should he be worried?
> I dont mind when a soft dog shuts down on me, if anything its an opportunity to make him more confident in the end.


After our initial little scuffle she took to the prong well and actually seems to be happier. 
When Shadow was younger she would often just freeze in place when she was frightened and close her eyes. She would stand there moaning and drooling until I picked her up and carried her somewhere else. I would guess that what I should have been doing was pushing harder, but I had never seen such an extreme reaction.
I'm not sure I have the guts to actually walk past another dog, my failing not hers. So far our walks have been short and mostly happy, but I am walking my dog for the first time ever, without either of us getting injured or stressed.
Blitz, thank you so much for your help and guidance. I was able to confidently fit the collar and I understand it's use. I definitely owe you one.
I don't like dog parks, and have no desire to take any dog to one. I just wanted to be able to walk my dog, to take her out with me, to chat with people, to go get a coffee. I am the type of person who will walk 20km just to blow off steam so it has always irritated me that she couldn't come along.
Plus after almost 18 years of having a partner at the other end of the leash, dogs who lived to be near me 24/7, I was more then frustrated with a dog who's sole purpose in life seemed to be to avoid me.
For the first time in 5 years I am looking at a normal dog, I don't care how much work this is, I will do this every day.


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## Sabis mom

In the midst of all the chaos of the last few weeks, a bright and shining star in the form of one small shepherd. 
Separation anxiety has become a reality for us, but I can deal with that. 

Found the prong in the bottom of a box, put it on her this morning and went for a stroll. Barrier aggressive dog across the alley got barely an ear flick, and we went back and forth a few times. Several people and a few small kids got hardly a glance. We visited a couple of small stores, and with permission, went in to purchase stuff. She stayed beside me, ignored other patrons and sat politely while I paid. I let her take a breather and sniff around a bit, nothing wild just sniffing on the grassy areas, but for most of our walk she stayed beside me on a short but loose leash. 

Very proud of my little girl. This is not a good neighborhood, high crime and lots of violence, so if I am going to walk around I would be more comfortable with her beside me. I don't expect her to protect me, but at least she will give an indication if anyone is near.


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## Sabis mom

I stumbled across this video just now. This dog is a much larger, much calmer version of what Shadow was. The prong was a huge help for her and watching this video I am thinking that with these type of behaviors a prong is a great solution. It's behaviors that are confused and a bit defensive. No aggression, just a lack of control. Perhaps a break down in communication? 


I seldom use the prong anymore, once in a while just to tighten up some things, or if I know I will be in a situation that may prove challenging for her but overall the tool did it's job and I ended up with a much more relaxed, confidant dog.


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## car2ner

I never used prongs before having GSDs. My big boy has one that I always hook on along with his martingale. He learned before a year old that he can pull me down the road. Since I like to take miles long walks in the neighborhood and I like to let him have as much autonomy as I can (within 6 feet). He has his head down and sniffing around so directions from me bounce right off of his skull and the prong collar gives him that bit of pressure that reminds him to keep up or hang back. Now when we cross the street I expect him to walk next to my leg and loose leashed. That I taught by using a quiet intersection and if he moved ahead we went back to the curb and started crossing the street again. It didn't take him long to figure out what I wanted. Now I have to be consistent to let him know I mean it.

My gal-dog can wear the prong collar around her neck but not attached to the leash. Since she hates blue marking paint ( a single event convinced her that blue paint meant danger ) I can use the prong collar to remind her she cannot run into the street to avoid it. She loves running free in the yard so it makes sense that she pulls on the leash to come home from walks. A prong helps there to protect her neck. Along with stopping each time she pulls hard. If we are walking through crowds in a city I'll hook on the prong. Other times I hook her martingale to a 15 ft leash to let her have as much freedom as I can on suburban sidewalks. It is always a dance between allowing a bit of freedom and still having control if situations change. You have to use the right tool for the right moment on the right dog.


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## Bentwings1

You are well on the way to having a fun dog that really likes you.

While my Aussie is a bit smaller at 57 pounds she is an extremely high drive and independent dog from herding stock.

I use a harness, flat nylon collar and a prong. The harness and flat collar are linked with a short connector line. She is an escape artist so this gives me about one extra second to release leash pressure when she decides to escape or gets tangled in the weeds.

I also use a 12” tab that the standard leash goes through. It’s easy to pick up the tab and have close order heel.

I allow leash pulling by command,...sniff or find a spot ( potty place). When it’s time to cross a street or walk nice I use the come to heel command. I use the German Fuss (foose) Command. This is a come to front with a flip to heel. Aussies are very good at twisting and turning so she likes this. 

I added a recall from distraction too. When she is pulling hard and really into something I use a recal Command, here, Whistle or a “teeee” sound. ( whistle not permitted in training classes). The flashlight works at night too. This brings her to come to front and either a release to go back or a come to heel. 

I use a couple of very long lines in the fields. But again we practice recalls and finishes and other obedience commands.

The leash pulling is physical exercise that works most of her body. She is rock hard all over. A couple miles of this is a half day’s exercise. Plenty for me as well.

Along with this whole process we have a “watch me” command. This I find is very important when out in public. Only 4% of the dogs in the whole country get any training at all so encounters are almost a sure thing the other dog has no social or training skills. By using the watch me command and reward with treats I’m able to distract her from aggressive and out of control dogs. After a awhile you can pick them out easily and prepare to avoid them. You see someone with a retractable leash and you can bet the dog now has a 40 foot circle of uncontrollability. You see someone with a phone in their ear and a cig in their mouth you know they have no control over their dog.

So just going for a walk is a very big and important exercise. I trained it step by step before putting it together. I’ve done this way back before SCH days. Some 25 or more years with a number of different dogs. It’s not my invention, it came from a training seminar a long time ago.

I don’t always use the prong and simply hook the tab to the flat collar. This works to but occasionally I add the prong. Most dogs have noticed the right away and are very good in the exercise. The interesting thing is that I don’t yank and torture dogs with the prong. Most of the time just rattling the chain is enough. A reminder or correction is just a finger twitch even in basic training. The GSD and Aussie have such thick fur around their neck that flat collars don’t mean much.


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## Bentwings1

This is a great video. I like how he describes what he is doing and what his expected results are. A dog like this would have been kicked out of some of the classes we attended early on as the trainers simply don’t understand this type of behavior. He notes that he may have to use a different approach to dogs with more unstable temperaments 

I was taught the work a while resrbthe work a while technic he notes here. If you could spend every other day with this dog in two weeks you would have a star performer.

It takes awhile to teach a handler this.....longer than the dog.LOL.


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## Sabis mom

Shadow will never be a stable dog. But with improved communication and clear signals from me we make it work. 
I was able to go from a dog that hated walks and suffered severe anxiety leaving her "space" to a dog that is happy and relaxed on walks.
It helped to have the forum members here that were quick to call me out on the waffling and keep me focused. Sometimes we all need a kick in the pants. 

We absolutely have struggles, she hates other dogs, but last night she walked within a few feet of two barking dogs and while she wasn't happy about it she did as she was told.


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## pooch495

We love using the prong collar just because we don't actually have to use it. We used it with our dog for several weeks and it stopped his pulling. The thing is he will pull if he isn't wearing it. So we put it on whenever we go for a walk in addition to his other collar but we don't actually attach the leash to the prong collar. He thinks its attached though and won't pull 99% of the time. On those 1% of days when hes pulling we attach it to the softer setting for part of the walk and then when he stops being naughty its back to the normal collar. He's none the wiser.


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## Bentwings1

Rather than let the dog lunge into the prong either keep just a tiny bit of slack in the leash or get a 9-12” loop tab. It’s what I’ve used for a long time. You can keep it just barely loose then just rattle the chain with a couple fingers or if you have to just keep pressure on it. I don’t like to do it that way myself, but sometimes really high drive dogs need it to settle their nerves down. 

I think most trainers will teach you to hold the leash in your right hand and use your left for the control. 

I put my left hand through the handle with it folded into a slip. Then I wear an open glove year around. Often a leather one. This will prevent you from ever dropping or getting the leash pulled out of your hand. Even if you fall down the leash will not come off. All of your correction is done with your left hand while your right is ready for instant reward.

Then I keep my treats or rewards in my right pocket or right hand.

I call this a close order heel. I found it works well on almost all dogs by preventing them from getting any momentum. You can correct faster and control pressure easier. 

My Aussie had never had a leash on her when I got her. She really got really frantic at first as I didn’t have a prong. We got a cheap one at the pet store for a week or so until the Herm Sprenger came from Ray Allen. I use a quick release style. Just my preference. I’ve yet to see one come loose.

I only use it maybe once a week now just to keep her sharp. 

Two of the training centers We go to don’t like this but I sometimes think they never really get to see the dogs in the,last 5% of the curve. The really, really high drive, nervy dogs. These guys can be a hand full if not guided properly. I don’t think I’ve ever seen dogs like we trained in Sch. in regular obedience classes.

I also add a “watch me” command in the heel training and other training. It’s good to do this in your home first as it will be invaluable distracting the dog from outside things that provoke him. By training this you can direct the frantic dog to you for good things like treats or other rewards and keep his mind off the bad distractions until he is ready.

If you can train this in your home you have a huge advantage. Get your basics done at home then go to training classes to,proof and fine tune your training with dogs that at least are under some control.


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## Lynn13

Having similar issues with my GSD. Three different harnesses, a gentle leader, a prong collar. So far. In the house, with any if the collars or harnesses, he lays down and looks like you've stolen his soul. But get him outside, and it's 100% panic pulling. Gentle leader. he tried to remove by somersaulting down the side walk. 

We start one on one training this week. Bear is about 14 months and 80lbs. He has panosteitis that flares randomly so we have not been able to do any group classes in about 6 months. (Hope to get him into nosework, and once hes past the pano hopefully some agility). Never know when he'll be limping. He sent me literally flying once (had to pull gravel out of my palms, and hit one knee hard enough the bruising went to the sole of my foot. At 58, at least I found out I'm not too fragile ?). He needs to walk, alot, and we both need to be safe. Really hoping one on one with a trainer who loves GSDs will get us on the right path. He is not aggressive towards people or dogs. The leash just seems to flip a panic switch.


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## Sabis mom

Do you suppose he may associate the leash with pain?

Shadow walked in a harness for a while as a pup because she would freak out if I put her collar on. Took some thinking but I eventually realized that I had put a collar on her and hubby promptly stepped on her. Their little brains put things together weird.

Anyway, try tiring his brain out. Teach him to find things, give him puzzle toys, make him pick the correct object. 
Sometimes in our trying to tire them out we end up creating super athletes and then we are stuck with dogs that need tons of activity to wear them out. Better to tire their little brains, plus it creates fun pass-times in crappy weather.


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