# Having Second Thoughts on Returning...



## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

So my male had his birthday last month, and it marks our year together. I was there when he was born, I did some of his Biosensor tasks... all his puppy baths, his vaccinations. We've been through months and months of pano, gastric surgery, sleepless nights watching him on IV, shows, training, long drives in the car; we've been through a lot.

Due to his health problems, I removed him from my breeding program. That's not what I'm having second thoughts on. I was all set to rehome him to a pet home, but his breeder blocked me and insisted that he be returned to her. We had a tousle about that and I finally just threw up my hands and said OK. It isn't ideal; she's only one person and the dogs don't have a 'family' atmosphere. My boy is used to being part of a family. I don't think he'll have a problem making the transition, but the home I had picked out had 400 acres, kids, other dogs, horses etc. 

Anyway, the closer the date comes to the 'hand over' the more I'm having all these crazy thoughts of just keeping him as a pet as I'm rather attached. I need to have folks either talk some sense into me or... well, not. I already have two pet dogs that I can't breed/show (one isn't even a GSD) and right now I have five total. I don't have acreage or anything, or kennels. They all live in my home and are housedogs. I am financially able to care for five dogs (barely), and the longer I have five the easier it feels for me to adjust to the extra. I thought four residents was my limit, but my boy gets along really well with everybody so he's 'invisible' in the sense that I never have to worry about him.

This will be my first 'washed' dog, and I'm not used to it. I know the intelligent thing to do is to let him go and look to the future. I also know that the sentimental dog-lover in me is screaming "but he's your big fluffy mandog! How could you?!"

So somebody talk sense to me. I know I won't use him, nor do I need a pair of testicles in my home with intact females.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Neuter him and keep him.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Neuter him and keep him.


If you really want to keep him then I agree with MRL


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

If the breeder won't let you let him go to a good home like you described - neuter him and keep him as a pet. You are already attached it sounds like and letting him go back to where he will have no "family" to have fun with and be loved seems sad.


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## FirstTimeGSD (Jul 31, 2012)

I had to give up a dog once that I had become attached to....never again. Sounds like you've outlined all the reasons to keep him (financially able, gets along with other dogs, does not interfere with your day to day life...). Keep him


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## FirstTimeGSD (Jul 31, 2012)

Out of curiosity...if the dog is a washout, why is the breeder so insistent on either you keeping it or the dog going back to them?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if you have a place like this " I don't think he'll have a problem making the transition, but the home I had picked out had 400 acres, kids, other dogs, horses etc. "

I think that is so ideal and in the end a better choice . He will get the one on one attention he needs.
If you want to be a breeder you have to be able to steel yourself and place animals. Sometimes it takes a while to find them the right place - and that is the only way to do it because you are doing it for them and not to them.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I guess for me it would depend on what was going to happen to him if returned, is he going into a kennel? Is the breeder going to place him in a nice home?

Will he be treated the way "I" would treat him? If no, I would neuter him and keep him.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Neuter the dog - bet she won't want him then...
Do you have his papers? Is he in your name?
Do you have a contract specifically saying you cannot sell him? Saying no matter what she gets him back?

There are ways around it, and I would not give the dog back to her as his quality of life will diminish. Be creative. He should go to the pet home with 400 acres, not to live out his life in a kennel.

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" I was all set to rehome him to a pet home, but his breeder blocked me and insisted that he be returned to her. "

do you co-own the dog ?

once you own the dog it is your dog. she did not share in your medical expenses. I assume you are cutting your losses and not asking for some health quarantee to kick in.

I can definitely see where a breeder will want to know how their young stock is doing -- just for their record of what they are producing to make other or better choices in the future . I can definitely see where the breeder would be concerned about where the dog is being homed to so that the dog is not treated as some flawed disposal object and given to anyone . I do not in one second think that would be you. I see caring and concern for the dog.

neuter the dog


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I guess for me it would depend on what was going to happen to him if returned, is he going into a kennel? Is the breeder going to place him in a nice home?


This would be my question as well.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be inclined to neuter the dog and rehome him to a great family like the one you described wanting to place him at originally. My feeling is that if you're going to become a breeder, you might as well get some practice making the tough decisions and rehoming dogs to whom you've grown attached. From what I hear, you'll be having to do a lot more of that down the road, and at least this one _can_ be happily rehomed. Some can't.


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## Diesel and Lace (Apr 15, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> Neuter the dog - bet she won't want him then...
> Do you have his papers? Is he in your name?
> Do you have a contract specifically saying you cannot sell him? Saying no matter what she gets him back?
> 
> ...


This right here. I would think any breeder who knows the dog is a wash would not want him as part of the breeding program and maybe if they were able to speak to and see where the dog could potentially go (400 acres????) they would agree that it was a great idea. There is something not right in this scenario about the breeder wanting him back when you have laid out the best possible option for him to be a family pet in the ideal situation.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I know, it frustrates me too! The dog is mine outright, AKC and UKC in my name. He was given to me without a contract and no verbal agreement as to placement if he didn't work out as a stud.

She says she gave him to me 'in good faith' and that he is HER dog. That I have no 'right' to place him anywhere. She will not place him; she will keep him. In communicating with me via e-mail she's accused me of emotionally abusing him by treating him as a 'reject' and that it will take her six months or more to 'rehabilitate his ego' after all the 'abuse' I've put him through. Shocking to read that... didn't know what to think! She has two bitches from the same litter. I said the same thing when she told me I couldn't place him in a home of my choosing, I asked why she wanted him if she wasn't going to breed him. She said that she was the best home; I lived with her for almost a year, and I just didn't enjoy the way her dogs were kept. They were fine and happy, but I like my dogs to be with me, out in the house, playing and sleeping on the couch instead of in a kennel. She is very busy and when I worked for her I was finding ear infections, lameness, vomiting in kennels etc that she wouldn't notice. That's just my preference, though. I just prefer a personal relationship with my dogs.

He is still an excellent show prospect. He'll do well in the ring. I can continue to show him, but I will not breed him.

I would LOVE to place him in a _proper_ pet home, I'd feel comfortable with it. But is it worth creating an enemy in an already small community of ASL showfolk? I have seen what she's capable of, and frankly it scares me. I have the legal upper-hand, but she has much bigger balls than I do.


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## skier16 (Feb 21, 2013)

If the paperwork is in your name I would tell her to kick rocks and do what you think is right. If you dont like the ways her dogs are kept and noticed issues she didnt, I would move on and find someone else.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

yep he is yours so do what you want to do- give him away give him away to a pet home...turn the papers in to AKC/UKC as put with a rescue (of sorts) or just keep him in your name!!!! Let him go 'on vacation" for the duration!!!! There was an incidnet of a puppy going to rescue at 5 months, the breeder tried like crazy to get her back, papers IN HER NAME!!! and the rescue would NOT return the pup.....she did not have the resources to go into a legal battle...she still owned the dog (was holding papers for payment I think!)....rescue spirited the dog away and one of the BOD kept her himself!

There is already bad blood between you...giving him back will let her say you dumped the dog on her....or whatever she wants to say to make you look bad....do what is best for the dog!!! Then you can look at yourself in the mirror and say you did what was right for the dog.

Lee


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

marbury said:


> He is still an excellent show prospect. He'll do well in the ring. I can continue to show him, but I will not breed him.
> 
> I would LOVE to place him in a _proper_ pet home, I'd feel comfortable with it. But is it worth creating an enemy in an already small community of ASL showfolk? I have seen what she's capable of, and frankly it scares me. I have the legal upper-hand, but she has much bigger balls than I do.


These two things are tough. 

If he's an excellent show prospect (as in, he can win), then somebody somewhere is going to be real tempted to breed that dog despite all the issues you've outlined and the fact that a dog with such issues really should not be bred.

I am _guessing,_ based on this post and some of your earlier ones, that the dog's original breeder might also be tempted, particularly given that her program produced this dog in the first place and so there is a non-zero chance that she views the problems as not necessarily dealbreakers.

So that points toward returning the dog, especially if he's not yet neutered, as very much an Unwise Decision.

On the _other_ hand, if you want to stay active in a small social scene then personal politics are also a potentially major consideration.

Is this person such a big player that you can't realistically stay active in that fishbowl without getting gobbled? Someone so unpleasant must have alienated other people before you -- what happened to them? Did they stick it out (in which case you could befriend them and support each other against whatever nastiness this person might dole out) or were they driven out of ASL showing in your area?

If it were me, I'd rehome the dog to a loving pet family, because I think that is pretty clearly the morally right thing to do in this situation. But I also don't care about continuing to stay active in a small and tightly connected social scene, so it's easy for me to say that. _Doing_ it might be much more difficult.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

she has NO rights to him legally, I would rehome where YOU want to if that is your decision.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I guess for me I wouldn't want the expense of showing a dog that I feel would bring health issues to the table if bred. I would neuter him, regardless, and immediately and either keep him or place him where I want him. I would cut off contact with his breeder ... her accusations are unfounded and hurtful. The only good faith going on around here is yours.


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## Diesel and Lace (Apr 15, 2013)

I dont know a lot about showing only went to showing so I really dont know or understand the politics involved this is just my suggestion in order to head off any false accusations or have issues going forward in your local area. Advertise to the club you are associated with that you are looking to rehome the dog as a pet only and list the reasons why. Note it cannot be bred due to the issues which puts it out there what is going on so you are the first one to admit the issues. You do not have to rehome the dog to anyone in that group but then you put it out there and the reasons why so you cannot be slandered later when you rehome to where you want to put the dog it will actually make you look better when you disclose the home you found for the dog. IDK if that would work but its an idea?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"If he's an excellent show prospect (as in, he can win), then somebody somewhere is going to be real tempted to breed that dog despite all the issues you've outlined and the fact that a dog with such issues really should not be bred."

I feel that no dog with health issues should be in the show ring . That is supposed to be the showcase of the best of the best.
It seems like there are a lot of problems with this breeder . Is your dysplastic female from her also (so sorry if I got it mixed up). You realize that if you take this dog into the show ring it will be on your dime and on your time but it is THEIR kennel which is getting the promotion.

I would neuter and put him out to the farm family.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

I think you should place him in the home you found after he is neutered. I would not trust that his breeder doesn't want him back to show and then breed him. She is trying to bully you, and that is not right. Carmen has the right idea, neuter him and tell her that and I bet she no longer wants him back.

My dogs are all mine. Even if there comes a time I need to place one, it will be solely my decision on where they go. I love them, and while I can only have so many dogs, I owe it to the ones who don't work out to find the best possible home for them no matter what anyone has to say about it.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

marbury said:


> I would LOVE to place him in a _proper_ pet home, I'd feel comfortable with it. But is it worth creating an enemy in an already small community of ASL showfolk? I have seen what she's capable of, and frankly it scares me. I have the legal upper-hand, but she has much bigger balls than I do.


If the ASL community is small, they probably already know about this breeder and how she can be, and if she badmouths you, everyone will probably take it with a grain of salt.

Neuter the dog and tell the breeder you are keeping him. Then give him to the pet home you had selected for him. How is the breeder going to know the dog's physical location? If she makes trouble for you, you have the law on your side. You want what is best for the dog.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

The breeder may want the dog back to euthanize it. 

I doubt they want it for breeding with known health issues and I doubt they want to keep it and feed it for 10 to 15 years in a kennel. I doubt they want it for a family companion.

If they euthanize it, then they don't have a dog out
there somewhere with their kennel name attached to it with medical issues.

Obviously I don't know that's the case but it's a possibility.

It's one of the reasons I do not like contracts. Breeders should do the ethical thing without contracts.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

carmspack said:


> I feel that no dog with health issues should be in the show ring . That is supposed to be the showcase of the best of the best.
> It seems like there are a lot of problems with this breeder . Is your dysplastic female from her also (so sorry if I got it mixed up). You realize that if you take this dog into the show ring it will be on your dime and on your time but it is THEIR kennel which is getting the promotion.
> 
> I would neuter and put him out to the farm family.


Yep... the very same. She's spayed and is guaranteed kept; she's my first shepherd and I wouldn't rehome her for the world. 

My other fear is that MY kennel name is in his registered name. I told her explicitly that I wanted it removed, but I have no leverage to make that happen once the paperwork has been handed over.

Thanks, everybody... I'm going to reply that I changed my mind and will keep him. Then we can go from there.

My local kennel club knows all about her already. They tried to warn me before I moved in to work her kennel, and I didn't believe them. Now I do! Not sure how much clout she carries in the national scene, but when it comes to ANYTHING at the Perry, GA fairgrounds I can guarantee she has a say in it.

The only major drawback to the family I found is that they already have two of this breeder's dogs; one with HD and neutered, one is my male's bitch littermate. She placed two dogs with them and STILL wasn't comfortable with having him placed there! I was so confused and upset. They're such a fantastic family, both very stable with kids and their own horse barn, and they just moved from their previous property (I visited when I was picking up and dropping of their HD dog for training pre-diagnosis, when he was being shown) to a new HUGE property I haven't seen yet. So she'd know exactly where he was if I placed him there. I'd bet she'd try to tell them I had no right/ownership if I did any time soon.

Thank you all! I'd better get used to spending more of my paycheck each month on dog food, lol. Five dogs eat a TON! I feel like I go through almost as much food as the kennels I've worked at, and we would have 20+ dogs!


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I definitely agree with the others... Neuter the dog, let that family with the acreage take him. She's just playing chicken with you... call her bluff. If he's neutered, I highly doubt she's going to want him. I doubt she's going to give him a good home from what you've said, and she has NO legal ties. Do what's best for the dog and she can take that where she wants. In the end, the dog will be happier and you'll be able to sleep at night knowing you did the right thing. He needs a family home.... no breeding, no showing. He's got issues, and that's ok for a neutered pet... but not in the show ring.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> The breeder may want the dog back to euthanize it.
> 
> I doubt they want it for breeding with known health issues and I doubt they want to keep it and feed it for 10 to 15 years in a kennel. I doubt they want it for a family companion.
> 
> ...


Oh, that is DEFINITELY not in the equation here. She wouldn't even euthanize her dog when it couldn't walk, couldn't control her functions, and stopped eating. She just wants control over the situation, and this is her way to get it. She has NO problem breeding dogs with health problems; she just doesn't tell other buyers. In my research she's produced a significant and diverse number of issues in her progeny, from auto-immune to HD to temperament to allergies. Whether this was accidental or disregarded I have no way to tell. I hope that it was accidental and unfortunate.

I should add that she doesn't think he has any issues. She does not believe that the ortho specialist was right about his x-rays, doesn't believe that pano has any genetic factors, thinks his temperament is fine, and thinks that his unidentifiable gastric complications that resulted in four fewer inches of intestine is somehow my fault. To her, all the issues he's had are my fault, as are all the issues of all the dogs that have been diagnosed with issues. "Raised improperly", "wrong diet", and "overmedication" are all frequent accusations. I worried I was in that category, that I was doing something wrong since both the dogs I got from her had such issues. But I have another dog, raised the same way, with zero issues. So...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

marbury said:


> Oh, that is DEFINITELY not in the equation here. She wouldn't even euthanize her dog when it couldn't walk, couldn't control her functions, and stopped eating. She just wants control over the situation, and this is her way to get it. She has NO problem breeding dogs with health problems; she just doesn't tell other buyers. In my research she's produced a significant and diverse number of issues in her progeny, from auto-immune to HD to temperament to allergies. Whether this was accidental or disregarded I have no way to tell. I hope that it was accidental and unfortunate.
> 
> I should add that she doesn't think he has any issues. She does not believe that the ortho specialist was right about his x-rays, doesn't believe that pano has any genetic factors, thinks his temperament is fine, and thinks that his unidentifiable gastric complications that resulted in four fewer inches of intestine is somehow my fault. To her, all the issues he's had are my fault, as are all the issues of all the dogs that have been diagnosed with issues. "Raised improperly", "wrong diet", and "overmedication" are all frequent accusations. I worried I was in that category, that I was doing something wrong since both the dogs I got from her had such issues. But I have another dog, raised the same way, with zero issues. So...


Given all that, I would never give a dog back to her.
There ought to be a law against that kind of breeding.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Please keep him =/ I am sure he is attached to you as well.


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## Bman0221 (May 3, 2010)

It sounds too me like you have already made up your mind.. Keep the dog and have him netured, or neuter him and re home to the family you have picked out. 

Based on your own statments here the breeder sounds a little shady to me anyway. At the end of the day if you really care about the dog, you need to do whats best for him and it seems like you already know in your heart what that is.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Y'know... somehow it's a lot easier to see how ridiculous the situation is when I type it all out like that. Somehow I can justify her choices when it's just all jumbled thoughts in my brain, but when I write it out it just sounds awful.

I do want to say that I don't honestly believe that she's a malicious breeder. She knows a lot about lines and is great with early development. I believe that lately she's been distracted, and that has negatively affected her ability to properly raise a litter. She's had some successful breedings and has produced two dogs with "excellent" hips, so many things have gone right.
I think it has more to do with not being willing or able to take on new information from people. She brought a 1.5 y/o dog into the show ring and was shocked when the judge said he only felt one testicle. She'd never thought to check. (Don't worry, he was neutered and placed!) So that to me seems like more of a lack of knowledge about what _could _go wrong than anything else. More of an assumption that all the dogs will be great dogs, a bit of kennel blindness.
I believe that is why she accuses me of being 'overly critical'; I consider myself _appropriately _critical. That doesn't make her necessarily a 'bad' breeder, just one with things to learn, just like me.

Once this is all over I hope to never have to work with her again. I have wished her well and I fully expect her dogs to beat mine in the ring. Her program is upwardly mobile for looks, and her dogs do look great. Every generation is richer, better boned, with stronger ears and heads. Very beautiful, especially the males. And she is wonderful at getting new folks in the ring, and providing support (to a point) for pups sold. But I have such a bad taste in my mouth, I just want to be shot of her. I was hoping giving the male back would be a good way to 'wrap up'. It will be more difficult and I fully expect another tussle about me changing my mind.

*sigh*

Thanks again, everybody!


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Here is the AKC dog name change form. 
http://images.akc.org/pdf/ADCG01.pdf
Change his name to remove your kennel name, neuter him and give him to the nice family.


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## dioworld (Feb 1, 2012)

Keep the dog if you can, i'm afraid she's going to euthanize the dog.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

but he's your big fluffy mandog. how could you??? you said it yourself. neuter him and keep him. you are already all the way in with this dog, i can tell by how you talk about him. keep it at the five until they leave on their own, their lives are so short...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> Neuter the dog - bet she won't want him then...
> Do you have his papers? Is he in your name?
> Do you have a contract specifically saying you cannot sell him? Saying no matter what she gets him back?
> 
> ...



That is exactly what my suggestion was about to be. Neuter him and then offer him to her. I'm sure she'll wash her hands off him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If she thinks he is neutered, maybe she will be happier to just let you rehome him. 

I think you are right to rehome the dog. 400 acres does not give me the warm fuzzy feeling that it gives others. It is unfortunate that a lot of people with acreage around here do not bother with fences, and their dogs get themselves killed running deer or going into the road. 

Still, if the people are good people, then the dog will probably have a good life with them. 

You cannot give the dog back to live in the situation that you know is not healthy, where health concerns go unmarked and untreated. Can't do it. 

I think the thing to do is to either make her want for you to do the re-homing, like if she wants the dog to breed or to show, being altered takes that out of the equation. It will tick her off that you went and did that, and you can probably say with honesty that the vet suggested neutering him (surely, some vet somewhere has said that to you at some point), so you did, make it sound like there was a reason. 

Or, if she will want to take the dog whether or not he is neutered, then just call her and tell her you changed your mind and chose to keep him. 

You can then change your mind again, and give the dog to the people that you chose to give him to. Probably neutered. You made no agreement with this person (breeder) to keep the dog or give it back to her. And unless she asks outright whether you still have him, don't say anything. If she does ask, tell her the truth. Tell her that the dog has lived in a family, and you did not want him to be a kennel dog. Tell her that you neutered him (if you did) and gave them to people who will keep him as a pet.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

reread what you wrote. you said you don't think your boy will have a problem making the transition. so, what's the problem? the problem is you you don't know what to do. do what's right for the dog.



marbury said:


> So my male had his birthday last month, and it marks our year together. I was there when he was born, I did some of his Biosensor tasks... all his puppy baths, his vaccinations. We've been through months and months of pano, gastric surgery, sleepless nights watching him on IV, shows, training, long drives in the car; we've been through a lot.
> 
> Due to his health problems, I removed him from my breeding program. That's not what I'm having second thoughts on. I was all set to rehome him to a pet home, but his breeder blocked me and insisted that he be returned to her. We had a tousle about that and I finally just threw up my hands and said OK. It isn't ideal; she's only one person and the dogs don't have a 'family' atmosphere. My boy is used to being part of a family. I don't think he'll have a problem making the transition, but the home I had picked out had 400 acres, kids, other dogs, horses etc.
> 
> ...


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

marbury said:


> I know, it frustrates me too! The dog is mine outright, AKC and UKC in my name. He was given to me without a contract and no verbal agreement as to placement if he didn't work out as a stud.
> 
> She says she gave him to me 'in good faith' and that he is HER dog. That I have no 'right' to place him anywhere.


Nonsense, he's your dog, place him where you know he'll have a good home. Be strong and do right by your guy. 
Sue


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> reread what you wrote. you said you don't think your boy will have a problem making the transition. so, what's the problem? the problem is you you don't know what to do. do what's right for the dog.


I say that because dogs are awesome and adaptable. He won't pine for me, stop eating and die. He's a normal dog and will adjust to whether situation he finds himself. My reasons for wanting him in a family are purely human. *I* would feel better knowing he's napping on a couch instead of in a 42in crate. *I* would feel at peace with placement if I knew he could run with kids around the pool instead of against a fence barking at another dog all day. Selfish reasons, really. The dogs in the breeder's care are not starved, beaten, dying, or tortured. They're just not a big part of the family. They have their own room where they stay, and mine stay with me. That's just what I like as what I hope he can continue to have in his new home. 

All the vets I know said I should neuter him and give him back, lol! I'd rather neuter him, inform her, and place him myself.


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## VickyHilton (Apr 5, 2013)

*Well, there you go!*

"All the vets I know said I should neuter him and give him back, lol! I'd rather neuter him, inform her, and place him myself.  " 

Sounds like you made a decision. 

By the way, those considerations you described as human and selfish I would say are taking the dog's quality of life into account. Not at all selfish.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Your reasons aren't selfish. They're the opposite. You're prioritizing the dog's welfare over what would be easiest for you (giving in to the breeder and avoiding potential grief down the road).


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

sounds like the "breeder" wants him back to use in her breeding program. If there was no contract and he is in your name alone, do what you feel is best. She has no say legally and AKC will do nothing if she complains to them.
If she keeps insisting, then tell her you are going to neuter him first, at the advice of your veterinarian and then will send him to her when she pays the surgery cost.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Dont make excuses for the breeder. Sounds like she is in the habit of knowingly producing junk. She and others like her are one of the reasons the ASL is so poorly regarded.

If you payed money for the dog, vetted and trained it on your own he is yours she has 0 claim. Tell her to get stuffed and move on. The last thing an up and coming kennel needs to be doing is associating with a breeder like that imo.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I get that the dog may not be breedworthy but does it have to be referred to as junk-


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

holland said:


> I get that the dog may not be breedworthy but does it have to be referred to as junk-


I was speaking in terms of the general quality of animal she appears to be producing and breeding not the individual dog in question. I think the the term junk is wholly appropriate and captures exactly thoughts on this type of individual, her practises, and the quality she produces... Yup junk.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Did she GIVE this dog to you? Did any money change hands? When giving this dog to you, why? When the deal was struck what was the understanding? It could not have been a mute agreement? You had to have talked. 

That said. It seems like this breeder has no qualms about bad mouthing you, so don't worry about her feelings. 

5 dogs is a lot. And it will hinder your ability to bring in a truly breed worthy dog if one should be made known. 

If you truly believe the dog should not be bred, and you are worried someone WILL breed the dog if out of your control, neuter him, then talk again to the breeder and see what she wants to do. 




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