# Number of protection dogs



## jarn

....maybe it's b/c we're talking GSDs, but i'm fascinated by the number of people who have PPD or guard dogs. 

....can i be all nosy? where do you generally live? what is your motivation for having one? 

(i know when i got luc a friend said 'i've noticed women get large dogs, to protect them' and i was SOOOO insulted. i got a large dog b/c he could keep up w/me physically. also b/c he's a smart dog and i respect that. nothing wrong if you do have/want a PPD/guard dog, i'm just curious







)

percentage wise - most GSDs would be pets - but how many people got them w/a thought to this ability?


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## angelaw

This is one reason I bought Hardy. Yes we have guns, but they're always locked up since we have a son still at home. I live out in the boonies and my DH works night. I want a deterrent that will give me time to get the safe open. Yes I have other gsd's, but Hardy had the attitude I was looking for.


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## SeriousConfusion

We got a German Shepherd dog because they give the allusion that I will be safer.
I was robbed at gun point when I was in high school and that was in a nice neighborhood. Dh is in the Army and goes away for extended periods of time and quite often. I have a loaded 9 mil in the dresser and just finished taking an NRA Basic Gun Pistol course with it for extra confidence. I currently live in a very nice neighborhood but I am a young female and I'm paranoid. When we finally decided that our lives were stable enoug, finally bought our first home and have a yard for him to play in, we figured if we're going to get a dog, we might as well get one that will make us feel safer and will help protect our home.

He's been barking away salesmen and Jehova's Witnesses ever since


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## Emoore

Not me, if anyone bothers my dogs, they'll need protection from ME, not the other way around.


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## Marshmallows

I didn't get a GSD because I wanted protection I just loved the breed and my 4 -H leader happened to be involved in Schutzhund. I went to a couple of training sessions with her and was hooked.
Although fast forward several years and after my male passed away and my husband went on night shift I realized how much comfort I got having him around.


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## selzer

Fact is that living out in the boonies alone without a dog, makes you more vulnerable. The idiots want an easy target, they will go down the road where there is no dog. 

Yes, part of what attracts me to the breed is the understanding that they have a certain amount of guarding behavior. It makes it harder, because you have to work more on socialization and all that. They are not fluff balls that love everyone. 

Part of me really likes that. 

I sleep easy at night knowing my dogs will let me know long before any intruder gets near my doors or windows. 

So I guess that it is one of the reasons I chose the breed. I chose this breed because of their loyalty and intelligence, but I always wanted big dogs. That is just me.


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## BucksMom

I'm home alone alot also. We live in a safe place but there are lots of campers and out of towners around and you just never know.
I feel very safe with my two boys.


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## Liesje

My dog is NOT a protection dog and has NO formal training in protection or SchH (I don't really consider SchH actual protection work anyway), however, I am aware that she offers a certain level of visual deterrence. My DH is more pleased with this. He says he feels better about me going for long walks at dusk now that she is with me. She is not guardy or possessive at all and she doesn't even bark; anyone can walk in our house and she will probably hide. However she is very alert, very discerning, and I have no doubt that she would not hesitate to step in if someone were actually hurting ME (but I think this is true with most dogs in general). I didn't choose the breed for the protective aspect, it's just a nice perk!


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## Castlemaid

jarn, do you mean a dog that might protect you if things get bad, or are you talking real bona-fide, professionally trained protection dogs, or sport dogs?


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## jarn

both, i guess. 

the bona fide mostly, b/c i've noticed on different forums people talking about training bona fide PPDs and i'm always curious why they would need them, to be honest, but figured it was rude to ask....

....but i was also curious how many people chose GSDs for their protective qualities but don't have PPDs or an otherwise trained guard dog.


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## lish91883

2 of my shepherds of Personal Protection Training. Sierra came from the shelter with it (thank god I had a trainer that knew what to look for) and with Blue I started the work with him. I'm a single female and I live totally alone. I also have no neighbors, but with 6 dogs, not really that worried anymore. lol 

Plus having a PPD made my mom feel better about me living alone.


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## DSudd

Rocky can be protective to an extent, he has not really been trained to act this way, I just think it is the GSD instinct. We got him because I grew up with GSD's and I know they are good dogs. I think just people knowing he is around makes them feel "protected" even though that is not his job.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: jarn
> 
> the bona fide mostly, b/c i've noticed on different forums people talking about training bona fide PPDs and i'm always curious why they would need them, to be honest, but figured it was rude to ask....


You'd probably be surprised to learn how many of those "bona fide" PPDs and PPD trainers are anything but.









We have 6 GSDs currently. 3 currently training in SchH, 2 retired from SchH, and 1 washout who's just a house pet. All of our SchH trained dogs go through additional, more "real life" training than is required for SchH trials, mainly to further test their temperament. One of our retirees also had some more formal PPD training. I *know* he will protect for real, both from the training and because on a couple occasions he's done so. I also know the washout would never consider it, and would be hiding under the bed. The other 4 are harder to say as they've never been really tested in that venue. 2 I'm confident would indeed protect for real, the other 2 I strongly suspect would as well.

We have GSDs because I grew up with them and for me there is no other breed. We have working lines because to me those are real GSDs, not a shadow of the GSD, and we participate in SchH because it's fun and a good test for the dogs. Their ability to protect, or rather to work in general, is for me one of the major attractions of the breed. That said, if an ax murderer comes through the front door, I'm not going to expect or even want my dogs to deal with that threat. I'll do that myself, and in fact would rather they hang back and stay out of the way so as to give me a clear shot.


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## jarn

so do people live in areas of high crime? hopefully that doesn't sound silly. i guess to me having a trained PPD just sounds so....hardcore....and i'm curious why people would feel driven to the length of training a PPD. 

i guess - i'm single, i'm female, i live alone - but i also live in a city, and while my area is nicely bumping up it's crime rate/street activity as other nearby areas gentrify - i never feel threatened, though the higher population maybe plays a role in that. so i'm curious what would be so threatening that a PPD would be deemed necessary. 

maybe it's the same difference b/tw canadians and americans w/respect to guns - i know lots of ppl who have guns (for hunting) but the only person i've ever met who kept a gun in the house for protection was a drug dealer (long story! blech, worst night ever) while my impression is that's not true in america. there seems to be a difference in expectations. 

this is very interesting though! thanks everyone


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## jarn

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: jarn
> 
> the bona fide mostly, b/c i've noticed on different forums people talking about training bona fide PPDs and i'm always curious why they would need them, to be honest, but figured it was rude to ask....
> 
> 
> 
> You'd probably be surprised to learn how many of those "bona fide" PPDs and PPD trainers are anything but.
Click to expand...

that's probably true. i'm having some disagreement w/my trainer (who also does PPD, and while we're not doing it, i wonder how well that training occurs) and can see where sometimes, ppl are full of it. (not that i'm currently disgruntled or anything! heh)

what you're saying makes sense. i do respect that GSDs as a breed are working dogs - one reason why i like GSDs better than golden retrievers, say - seeing the protection aspect promoted outside of PSD or MWD etc has just been something about the breed i didn't expect, so it's very interesting to me.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: jarnso do people live in areas of high crime? hopefully that doesn't sound silly. i guess to me having a trained PPD just sounds so....hardcore....and i'm curious why people would feel driven to the length of training a PPD.


I think it more has to do with personal preference. Many people like this sort of dog training and do it as much as a hobby than anything else. Others find true comfort in having such a dog because it makes them feel safer. And for many it's a macho ego thing.

I don't think living in areas of high crime has much to do with it. Anyone can be victim of a crime. Chances may be higher in some areas, but there is always a chance. And people who live out in the boonies are just as likely to be victimized as those in a high crime area, because their seclusion makes things easy.. no one around to see or hear. Let's face it, if someone is attacked the police aren't going to be much help. Even if the victim did miraculously have an opportunity to call the police and the police took the call seriously, the attacker is going to get things over with quickly and isn't going to wait around for the several minutes it will take the police to arrive. And in today's society you certainly can't count on a bystander to step in and be a Good Samaratin, even if there is a bystander around to notice. You're on your own. I think most people who have PPDs for legitimate reasons look at their dogs the same way people who have guns for protection view their firearms... much better to have it and never need it than to need it and not have it.


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## Emoore

Another reason having a PPD seems odd to me is that there are so many places that you may be attacked that you can't even bring a dog.


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## jarn

well, and if you're doing it as a hobby - why would you train a PPD as a hobby instead of a SchH dog? 

....my understanding is that the two are different. i've read that SchH dogs are trained to bite the sleeve, and if you want to move a SchH dog into a PSD, or presumably a PPD, you need to do a lot of work w/hidden sleeves etc. i'm not 100% on what civil drive is, so ppl who know what they're talking about (aka not me!) can correct me, but my understanding is that civil drive is essentially the dog's willingness to attack someone unarmed/unprotected, and that this is the opposite of what SchH dogs are trained to do. 

is that right? i'm sure if there was an actual attack upon an owner, that would largely be moot, b/c the dog would probably step in, but i guess i am confused why you would train PPD as a hobby or expect a SchH dog to act as a PPD (though, they'd probably be better at it than an untrained dog). i may have a whole bunch of misunderstandings here that need to be cleared up though!


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## Chris Wild

Yes, SchH dogs are trained to bite a sleeve because it's one of the rules. That doesn't mean SchH dogs aren't really biting. Some SchH dogs are working in prey, biting a "toy". Some are working in aggression and are capable of being quite civil. They only bite the sleeve because they've been taught that is what they're supposed to bite. If the dog bites anywhere but the sleeve, you get tossed out of the trial. So when doing SchH it's pretty important to make the dog is sleeve sure. But take away the sleeve, and a lot of SchH dogs will still bite. Some SchH dogs would never make a PPD no matter how much additional training they go. Some would make the transition quite easily, with very little additional training being needed. Depends on the individual dog's temperament, and it's training.

People do all sorts of things for hobbies that I don't understand or wouldn't do myself. Everyone has different preferences. SchH is more stylized and there are required obedience and tracking components. Some people just like protection training and don't want to get into all the tracking and obedience, or they prefer a less strictly regimented protection training. Different strokes for different folks.


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## jarn

context and personality. that makes sense. 

i can kind of see that, though not in a protection trained sort of way, w/luc and teagan. luc's behaviour is strongly w/in context in terms of his 'protectiveness' (and he's learning i decide), but he's far milder than teagan, whose body language i can only describe as looking for a collision. (bless her heart, sometimes she reminds me of me) not that either of my dogs are SchH or PPD, obviously, but personality wise i can see what you're saying.


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## DanL

We started doing protection training with our GSD mainly as a challenge to him and to me as a handler. Add in the fact that I'm gone a lot at night, I wanted to know my wife would be safe. Evaluating his ability and building his confidence to deal with potential situations is what our goal is now. With a Great Dane who has a bark that shakes the house, and the visual impact of a dog her size along with the GSD, I feel pretty good about people leaving us alone. Teaching him to bite properly and be disciplined about it makes me feel better about him not reacting out of fear. At this point the training is developing his drives, his confidence and his bite grip. We're not working any situations beyond his training level but you can see him growing week to week. It's not a short term, take an 8 week course type of venture, it's a long term investment. 

We originally looked into doing Sch, but the only Sch club near us is over an hour away and they were a pretty closed group. I got a snobby vibe from some of the members when we went to visit, and they never seemed to be taking new members or prospects, even though they only had about 8 members. They wouldn't answer emails either, so I decided they were happy with their little group and didn't pursue it further. I did notice they now have a line on their website saying they are accepting new members, but it doesn't really interest me at this point.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DanLTeaching him to bite properly and be disciplined about it makes me feel better about him not reacting out of fear.


Yup. 

The other thing that many people don't really think about when they think protection training, but is the most important component of all is control.

If one is going to look to a dog for protection, either by training it thus or just trusting to it's natural instincts, control is imperative. Training gives control. An untrained dog can't be relied upon to truly defend.. it might, but it also might not. You don't know if you don't test it. But even if the dog does step up to defend, and untrained dog is going to be completely lacking in control. That means good luck trying to get your dog to disengage when you need him to. Even a dog with the best general obedience training in the world isn't likely going to hear and obey his handler when placed in a true life or death situation.

Training removes unknowns. People who assume their dog will protect just because it's a GSD or a SchH dog or whatever, have a false sense of security. If they ever are in a situation where they need the dog, and they expect the dog to protect them, they may be in for a big surprise when the dog bails and runs the other way. Put a dog through training, and you have a much more accurate assessment of what your dog will and will not do in that situation, and thus any sense of security you gain from the dog is going to be more based upon reality.

I agree very few people need a PPD. Even fewer have the resources and dedication to get a good dog, put it through good training, and keep up with the required maintenance training. For most people an imposing looking dog with a protective reputation and a big bark is enough, as a deterrant is all that's required in 99.9% of cases. But if someone expects more out of their dog than that, formal training is going to give them realistic expectations instead of a false sense of security, and it's going to give them the control needed to get through a situation if the dog ever is called upon to protect.


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## angelaw

Exactly. I have a few with schutzhund training, only 1 do I know would protect in real life. Oxana doesn't have a mean bone in her body, would just lay there and look at them, lol. She's a sport dog. Hardy has been tested and we continue to do refresher training from time to time. But as you said, CONTROL is the key.


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## big_dog7777

Jarn,

You are asking good questions. I have had at least one GSD for the last 10 years of my life. I got one as soon as I had a place of my own and could afford one, and have never looked back. My first GSD was a German Showline, and he was an amazing dog. He taught me how much I could trust a dog provided I put in the time to train and socialize him. He was naturally protective from about two years of age. No growling or hackles, he was extremely confident in all situations. If a strange man was anywhere near my property I would know immediately and if the guy was weird or did not look right in any way he wanted at him or wanted him gone. A door could not be open in the house without him watching it until it was closed. Through his training I learned more about the breed and what a real GSD is meant to be and do. When it came time to get another pup, I went working line. I had always been intrigued by SchH, and when I got her home her athleticism and focus blew me away. I knew I had to get her into something, so I checked out the nearest SchH club and got completely addicted immediately. I just added an adult male working line GSD to train as well. For me, a GSD can give me everything any other breed can (with the possible exception of a bird dog, and even some GSD's can do that) but hardly any other breed can give me what a GSD can. I get all the companionship and affection any other breed can give me, but along with that I get deterrence and possibly reaction if something happens. There are people in this world that have no respect for human life that will take away everything that my family and I hold dear in the blink of an eye. In order for them to accomplish this they will need to go through two GSD’s with protection training (primarily SchH but transitioned into “real” world as well) and a 300 pound man with a 9mm Berretta. Common sense would dictate that they would move on to an easier target, and that is all I’m looking for. If someone is prepared to handle those defenses and skilled enough to do so, it means that I have done something to someone which has made me a target for the wrong people (which I do not intend to do) and I’m a gonner anyway.


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## jarn

well the more i have luc, and now teagan, i can see the deterrance aspect. 

i have to admit, last month the police arrested a gang that was mugging and assaulting people in the park where i take the dogs to go potty (though we stay in one corner of the park) and i never worried b/c a)i don't carry valuables when we're out for a walk; b)i don't act like i'm scared (years of feeding and trapping feral cats in nasty downtown alleys (always wear shoes b/c of the needles) taught me that attitude is everything, and most people, other than drunks, will leave you alone if you leave them alone); and c)i had a large dog with me. 

teagan moves forward at every strange dog and person she sees. i described her as looking for a collision, and that's the best way i can think of to put it. from the short period of time i've had her, she has displayed a willingness to engage. 

i guess i just don't worry about being in a situation where i'd need this, but you guys are really raising some good points, so thank you!


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## DanL

There is a woman at our club who has a real nice Mal. On the field the dog is a beast, very well trained, immaculate obedience. The woman came home one day and this guy who had done work on her house a few weeks before was getting out of her pool! He apparently was working on another house down the street and used her pool to cool off. The man started approaching her when she was asking him what the heck he was doing. She didn't like how he was coming towards her. She gave the dog the "secret word" and the dog didn't move. The dog knew that the pool was a fun place where she and her human friends would swim, so she didn't think of the guy as a threat. Now she's trying to make the dog more civil and try and teach her that protection doesn't end on the field- work with hidden sleeves, work off of the field, etc. 

Here you have an example of a dog that is outstanding when someone has a suit on, but will not engage a real threat in real life.


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## jarn

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild The other thing that many people don't really think about when they think protection training, but is the most important component of all is control.
> 
> If one is going to look to a dog for protection, either by training it thus or just trusting to it's natural instincts, control is imperative. Training gives control. An untrained dog can't be relied upon to truly defend.. it might, but it also might not. You don't know if you don't test it. But even if the dog does step up to defend, and untrained dog is going to be completely lacking in control.


that to me would be the biggest pay-off of SchH/protection training - the dog would be very well-trained and under control. the few SchH dogs i've seen in real life are extremely impressive, extremely self-confident, and extremely well-behaved. 

dan - does adding in a civil component to the training effect how well the dog performs in SchH? is this confusing to them b/c of differences in the two, whether it's the bite locale or other holding behaviour? (edit: i have read elsewhere that SchH and PSD work aren't that compatible....maybe i'm wrong in thinking PPD work would be similar to PSD work and therefore the same issues would arise - curious as to opinions (man i'm nosy about something i'm not even doing with the dogs! sorry....))


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## big_dog7777

Jarn,

Apparently you and I are following each other around the board today and posting! LOL Anyway, the end result of all the training is amazing, but for lots of people that train in SchH the journey of training itself and the knowledge you attain about your dogs temperment (and yourself for that matter) ends up being the biggest draw. 

As far as one type of work (PPD, SchH or PSD) affecting another it depends on the dog, handler, and quality of training. Bernard Flinks, a very well known SchH handler and trainer and K9 cop in Germany works his dogs in both. His opinion was that the right dog, with the right training, could be transitioned from sport work to PSD work in a weeks time and that he prefers to work this way because of the increased control he has with a dual dog. Now, he is REALLY good at both types of training, but it can be done.


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## jarn

heh....so it seems! 

can you transition back? from PSD to SchH? i guess so, if you train the dog right, you could work them back and forth, you'd just have to be careful that they'd repositioned (so to speak)? 

i definitely see SchH as being a really amazing bonding thing to do with your dog, and a very cool part of GSD heritage. for me, i'm way too new of a handler, luc is most definitely not an appropriate dog for it (too soon to say about teagan), and it would seem that some of the SchH trainers around here are kinda big jerks to dogs (re my other thread). besides, to be totally selfish about it - i have for next summer a very specific running goal that will take a lot of training. i had decided after two months of having luc to give it up and focus on him, but luckily, after tearing a couple of ligaments in my ankle, my distances dropped down to where luc was able to train w/me, so he'll build up w/me and i can do the training and have luc with me. i'm putting in separate runs for teagan. during that timeline, i want to focus on basic and then advanced obed. with them, and i think that's realistic and won't be too boring....at least i'm hoping to have my cake and eat it too! if it doesn't work, the dogs come first, but i'm going to give it a try (though the thought of teagan w/more muscle blows my mind).


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## DanL

jarn, I really don't know about the civil part and Sch because I don't do Sch. There is a triangle of prey, defense, and civilness that our trainers try to balance by using different approaches with each dog to help balance them out. Some dogs are more civil from the start, while others need to have that drawn out of them. One way to do that is, bluntly, to piss them off. Cracking a whip at their feet, smacking them on the nose with the handle, etc. 

I think transitioning back from protection type training to Sch would be difficult, at least how we train and if the dog didn't come from a Sch background to start with. Our dogs are trained to bite any part of the body they can get to. Dogs that are more advanced are purposely given leg and back bites along with sleeve work. We don't do a blind search and then have the dog do a bark and hold. It's a search and bite, no bark and hold at all. So to retrain those things would be a reversal of what the dog has already learned. I'm sure it could be done with a good dog, since really, it's all about obedience, but I think it'd be easier to take a Sch dog and start working him in protection type training. Where any dog will drop off no matter it's training background is when you really start pushing the dog's limits and making him have to go from defense into fight mode. That is where the line is drawn between a true protection dog and a sport dog. I've seen dogs at our club being smacked right in the face and head with the whip handle over and over to make them break off the bite, and they don't. Or being wrestled to the ground and tied up in the decoys legs and being flipped around. Not a lot of dogs will stay on a bite when they are pushed that hard. Of course, we don't do that to every dog either, there are many levels of dog we train with, from beginners to dogs that have PSA certification. It'll be a long time before my dog is tested like that, if ever. We'll just keep working him and letting him get better and at some point his potential will be reached, and that is where he'll be maintained. Like one of my trainers said, you can't fit 32oz of dog in a 16oz bottle. Some dogs have bigger bottles to fill than others and you have to know when your dog has reached his limit.


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## K9mom

Well, I love the GSD breed for their loyalty and ease of training amoung many other things but I will tell you that the illusion that the dog would protect me is good enough. My theory has always been that if an intruder continues to come into my home with GSD signs outside and a GSD barking when they make a sound, that intruder has every intention on continuing into the home and either killing the dog or you or both. That intruder probably has a knife or gun and the dog would be no match anyway. For those middle of the road "guys" the illusion should be enough as it is easier to move onto someone else without the dog.
When I raised pups for a Guide Dog school, they used to press the idea that training your dog to listen well on command will make someone else question what your dog really knows and what their reaction would be. For example:
A stranger knocks on your door, your dog barks and you put the dog in a sit or down stay to your side and open the door (the dog is in a stay and no longer barking per your command). That person doesn't know A) If that dog is trained to attack on command as he listened so well to your other commands or B) Will the dog attack without command C) If the dog has no protection skills and is just well behaved. Better to keep that stranger guessing.
When I lived in a rough end of town, the "kids" (maybe 14 to 20 yr olds) would bark at my dog and I when we walked by their houses. I took that for a short period of time, then when I heard the first kid bark, I would cross to their side of the street ever so confidently and say, oh, did I heard you say you wanted to pet my dog? They would all scatter. Finally the barking stopped and they would ride their bikes/skate boards, etc by me and ask if the dog bites. I would hold the dog tight (as if to hold him back) and say, "only if he needs to. Do you wanna try to get close to me and find out?" I would ALWAYS get a NO WAY! response and they would take off. They never knew for sure what my dogs would do but they respected the dogs enough not to try.
Also, when we first moved to "that" neighborhood, I had just gotten home from Christmas dinner with the dogs and (out back was a barn/garage with woods behind it) one of my dogs was restless, uneasy, jumping up to the window sill. I thought maybe he was gonna be sick so I leashed him to let him out and when I cracked the door, he slammed passed me so fast I had to drop his leash or I would go butt over tea kettle down a flight of stairs. He jumped all the way to the bottom slammed the screen door open at the bottom and ran barking to the barn (where there where dirt bikes, a car, snow mobile, tools, etc) as I watched a siloette run around the back of the barn into the woods with my dog in hot pursuit. I was screaming for him but no response, i am thinking oh my god he's gonna kill my dog. I screamed for my neighbor to call the police and finally my dog returned all fine but on guard. I knew **** well someone was in the barn for a bad reason. The cop walked into the barn took his flashlight alone,walked about 30ft into the woods, turned around and said, "I think you saw a deer". WHAT!!!!!!!!!!! Last I knew deer didn't walk on two legs and hang out in barns, alone. I guess it was Rudolph stealing toys for children. After that night, I NEVER go outside at night without one of my dogs. 

Sorry, I'm long winded tonight!
Tina


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## jarn

> Originally Posted By: K9MomWhen I lived in a rough end of town, the "kids" (maybe 14 to 20 yr olds) would bark at my dog and I when we walked by their houses. I took that for a short period of time, then when I heard the first kid bark, I would cross to their side of the street ever so confidently and say, oh, did I heard you say you wanted to pet my dog? They would all scatter. Finally the barking stopped and they would ride their bikes/skate boards, etc by me and ask if the dog bites. I would hold the dog tight (as if to hold him back) and say, "only if he needs to. Do you wanna try to get close to me and find out?" I would ALWAYS get a NO WAY! response and they would take off. They never knew for sure what my dogs would do but they respected the dogs enough not to try.


that's why people always think luc's too nice to be a GSD!

did/do your dogs have any protection or SchH training, or formalized obedience around this? i wasn't sure if you had or if you just worked the "scary GSD" angle.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DanL
> I think transitioning back from protection type training to Sch would be difficult, at least how we train and if the dog didn't come from a Sch background to start with.


With good dogs and good training it's not difficult at all. Especially if the dog learned SchH first and then moved onto other types of protection work. In other words he learned to bite the sleeve first, then he learned to bite elsewhere. Harder if the dog's foundation is to bite anywhere and later he's taught about the sleeve, but still do-able.

Dogs are very situational. Proper training for this type of situation means that if the sleeve is there, they'll bite the sleeve. If there is no sleeve, then they'll bite elsewhere. The sleeve serves as a trigger for the dog so he knows what context he's working in on that particular day. 

This is where people get confused or think SchH dogs can't also be "real" protection dogs. Just because they'll bite a sleeve when it's present doesn't mean they won't bite if there is no sleeve. Granted that is true of some SchH dogs. But it's certainly not true of all of them. There are also many dogs who successfully cross train in SchH and Ring or other protection sports that utilize suits instead of sleeves, and who compete in SchH and also work as PSDs or PPDs. 

The SchH clubs I've trained at have all used bite suits and muzzle work from time to time, and also taught things such as out off the active helper, biting the passive helper on command instead of barking, call offs from attack, etc.... Not because these things are required in a SchH trial, but because they make for good training, are ways to add more control and to further test the dog, and they're just fun and add a bit of variety to training days.


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## jarn

chris, can i ask another question then? i was watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5cS0CxjBs&mode=related&search=

i presume AWDF stands for American Working Dog Federation (or something like that) and that this is a relatively high level of SchH competition. 

the reason why i'm asking is - coming from a rugby background, a lot of the bites in this video look sub-par. (maybe i'm totally wrong here). but they look that b/c as the dog gets closer to the decoy, it breaks stride in preparation for the bite/hit rather than just going in and going for it (i thought that the best bites were the pit bull at 00:27 - what a gorgeous dog! - and the Mal at 02:08, the GSD at 03:42, and the what i think is a Mal at 05:50). the dogs that went for it had far more effective hits and really engaged to decoy and took him out/pushed him hard. the rest of the dogs kind of just latch on and go along for the ride, or that's how it looks. 

is this common? would it be that most of the dogs in this video wouldn't be good PPD/PSD prospects but the few that go for it could transition? 

(i'm just curious - when i was in high school and my team started doing the tentative tackles, we stuck them into constant tackling practice, so they'd lose the tentativity/fear (b/c somewhere in the subconscious i think that's what it is), and when i watched most of the dogs in this video, that's what i thought of)


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## Chris Wild

You can't tell anything for certain by looking at a video of courage tests. You've got to see the dog work, preferably on multiple occasions and in training, not just trials.

A lot of dogs who do flying leaps at decoys are working solely in prey. Some dogs gather before the bite out of hestiation. Obviously that's bad. But some strong dogs also gather a bit in order to launch themselves at the decoy and power into him, rather than just fly at him. Though if a dog gathers one can usually tell why it's doing so and which category the dog fits into.

If the helper makes an odd movement or breaks his stride coming into the dog, that can also make dogs pause a bit and leave the ground later.. they hesitate and replan their attack mid stride because they want to make sure what he's going to do and where he's going to go before committing to the bite.

Much of it is also breed tendencies. Mals as a whole are known to be fliers on long bites. But many of those fliers actually lack true commitment to the fight and are working mostly in prey. GSDs, who tend to be more likely to work out of aggression and have more commitment to fighting, generally don't fly through the air but rather launch straight into the helpers center of mass trying to bowl him over. And a Rottie, no matter how nice or serious it is, just isn't likely to be a flier. Rotties just aren't.

Also, dogs can be artificially taught to fly on courage tests by helpers always backing up at the last minute in training. Likewise, dogs can be discouraged from flying on courage tests by helpers who dodge them during training. A flying dog is an easy one for the helper to get out of the way of since the dog is in the air and already committed to it's trajectory. So training can also play a large part in what the dog does as he learns from experience what does and doesn't work. 

Some people encourage flying courage tests because they look cool and are crowd pleasers. Others try to discourage flying courage tests because they can lead to missed or poor bites in trial if the helper and dog don't have their timing perfectly in sync and the helper starts to turn while the dog is still mid-air and can't adjust, and because flying courage tests lead to a lot of spinal injuries in dogs, and more than a few broken helpers as well.


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## jarn

okay....it's true there were a few small gathers that had little effect on momentum, i can see those being a replan/repositioning. i was just surprised HOW many dogs did it, and did it significantly IMHO. 

i see what you mean about the mals being fliers. the first one i mentioned at 02:08 doesn't hesitate on the bite, but also doesn't actually have much push afterwards. 

i thought the GSD was the best, b/c not only was there no bite hesitation, but he used his body and weight to take the decoy down - as you've said, the centre of mass. but of course a GSD would be smart







i also thought the pit bull, pound for pound, had a really powerful bite/hit.

is that one way of testing SchH dogs? for the decoy to purposely try to mess up their strides? 

would flying courage tests even be the best hits? i liked it when there was no stride break, but i would think a closer and maybe lower hit would bring more power, to move into the bite/hit closer in than from a bit further out (loss of momentum/power in the air)?

....this is so off-topic from the original discussion, but it is interesting







.


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## Wildtim

Hate to burst your bubble but the GSD that took the helper down didn't do so out of any amazing prowess of his own. He knocked the helper over because the helper got caught flat footed and couldn't make the proper turn to absorb the dogs momentum, I saw other dogs in this video come close to doing the same thing for the same reason. Not that it isn't a great dog or a great helper but sometimes it happens when you deliberately have a head on collision full tilt with a dog.


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## jarn

well, you'd be the one to know, i'm just learning (or trying to).


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: jarn
> 
> is that one way of testing SchH dogs? for the decoy to purposely try to mess up their strides?


I'm not quite sure I'm following your train of thought here, in terms of how the helper trying to mess up the dog's strides would test anything? It's natural for a dog to hesitate and wait for the last possible second to commit if his target is dancing around. That doesn't prove anything except the dog is smart to wait to make sure his target will be where he thinks it will be before launching.

In SchH the helper work is not only supposed to be safe, but also fair and consistent. Meaning the helper should work each dog the same way, not pull something out of his hat to try to screw the dog up. The idea is to ensure a level playing field, with each dog being shown in a consistent manner so they can be judged compared to one another. The helper isn't supposed to help the dog, but he's is supposed to present the dog with a fair, consistent, predictable opportunity for the dog to show what he's got. This is the opposite of some of the ringsports where the helper is supposed to screw the dog up as much as he can. Including dodging on long bites. And most ring dogs I've seen when sent down field in a courage test scenario DO miss the initial bite if they go high because they commit early (the typical flying Mal) and then the helper just steps out of the way once the dog is mid air. One of the reasons ring dogs are taught to do so many leg bites.. much harder to make the dog miss if he keeps his feet on the ground longer and a helper can't get both of his legs out of the way as easily as he can dodge his upper body out of the way.









I don't know all that much about rugby, but in football someone who dives from far away is likely to miss a tackle if the ball carrier zigs once the tackler is midair. Whereas waiting until he knows what path the ball carrier is going to take and has the ball carrier within reach before attempting the tackle is just smart and going to have a much higher rate of success. Same goes for a dog after a helper.




> Quote:
> i liked it when there was no stride break, but i would think a closer and maybe lower hit would bring more power, to move into the bite/hit closer in than from a bit further out (loss of momentum/power in the air)?


There has to be a stride break for a dog to gather it's real legs under him in order to propel at an upward angle to hit the helper, rather than continue just moving horizontally along the ground. The best hits IMO are dogs who do this, using not only their forward momentum from running full tilt but also the power in their rear end to smash into the helper.. not launch at him with abandon from 20 feet away the same way they would if someone was standing there holding a ball.

Of course, it's important to be able to see the difference between a dog gathering a bit in order to power into the helper, and a dog gathering because he's hesitating and not fully committed to the attack. Usually the differences are pretty obvious once you've got a bit of experience and have seen some examples of both so you can compare them.


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## jarn

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: jarn
> 
> is that one way of testing SchH dogs? for the decoy to purposely try to mess up their strides?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not quite sure I'm following your train of thought here, in terms of how the helper trying to mess up the dog's strides would test anything? It's natural for a dog to hesitate and wait for the last possible second to commit if his target is dancing around. That doesn't prove anything except the dog is smart to wait to make sure his target will be where he thinks it will be before launching.
> 
> In SchH the helper work is not only supposed to be safe, but also fair and consistent. Meaning the helper should work each dog the same way, not pull something out of his hat to try to screw the dog up. The idea is to ensure a level playing field, with each dog being shown in a consistent manner so they can be judged compared to one another. The helper isn't supposed to help the dog, but he's is supposed to present the dog with a fair, consistent, predictable opportunity for the dog to show what he's got. This is the opposite of some of the ringsports where the helper is supposed to screw the dog up as much as he can. Including dodging on long bites. And most ring dogs I've seen when sent down field in a courage test scenario DO miss the initial bite if they go high because they commit early (the typical flying Mal) and then the helper just steps out of the way once the dog is mid air. One of the reasons ring dogs are taught to do so many leg bites.. much harder to make the dog miss if he keeps his feet on the ground longer and a helper can't get both of his legs out of the way as easily as he can dodge his upper body out of the way.
Click to expand...

oh, okay. i was wondering if the helper was supposed to present a variable target for the dog.

this has been really interesting for me, i've learned a lot! thanks!


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## DanL

Don't the decoys in ring work get points as well, for making the dog miss?


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## Chris Wild

Yes, in ring the decoy is supposed to try to screw the dog up and take points away from the dog at every opportunity. If that means working each dog differently in order to make it screw up, so be it. In SchH, the helper is supposed to provide even keeled, consistant work in order to allow the dog to be tested on a level playing field. The helper is supposed to give the dog every opportunity to earn the full 100 points, and from there it's up to the dog to show what he's got. Of course, the helper should never help the dog along, just make sure everything is done by the book so the dog has a fair chance. The two sports have two different ways of looking at it.


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## novarobin

> Originally Posted By: jarn
> 
> i have to admit, last month the police arrested a gang that was mugging and assaulting people in the park where i take the dogs to go potty (though we stay in one corner of the park) and i never worried b/c a)i don't carry valuables when we're out for a walk; b)i don't act like i'm scared (years of feeding and trapping feral cats in nasty downtown alleys (always wear shoes b/c of the needles) taught me that attitude is everything, and most people, other than drunks, will leave you alone if you leave them alone); and c)i had a large dog with me.
> 
> i guess i just don't worry about being in a situation where i'd need this, but you guys are really raising some good points, so thank you!


Jarn, I think you and I are very similar people. I do think attitude has alot to do with it. 
I have never been a nervous person. When I finally got my own house, I got a labrador retriever. He is definitely not a protection dog. The only thing he is good for is alerting me to noise and maybe his bark would be a deterrant. 

My bf has a GSD, Kaper. He was bred and trained to be a PSD, however, they had problems with his tracking and he did not pass his qualification. 

I take Kaper running with me and I must say, I love the feeling. People literally cross the street when we are coming (any runners would know how sometimes people just don't want to share the sidewalk with you, no problems with that now). I love how alert he is to everything going on around us. I have never had a situation where he has had to act, but I do feel he would, just by the way he acts I seriously doubt anyone would try anything anyway. I never felt unsafe going on my own, but with him I feel really safe. Now when I take my lab, people will walk right up to him and pet him without even asking. 

At home, Kaper is protective. I do believe that if someone came into the house, Kaper would act. If he didn't, he would at least let me know someone was there. And like someone already said, if someone keeps coming after hearing him bark (and Chatham too), I am in serious trouble. 

I think in my city(East coast Canada), a PPD would be an excellent idea. We have a relatively low crime rate, break and enters are common but we have seen an increase in home invasions (ie, people are home when they break in) in the past couple of years. Not one that I know of had a dog. Most of the victims were older people who lived on their own. Some were even during the day. The people who did the invasions were drug users looking for some quick cash. I cant' remember how often they were armed. No guns that I know of. That is the ideal situation for a PPD whether he attacks or not. Like someone already pointed out, they are looking for an easy target. A barking dog, especially a large breed like GSD, is not something they want to contend with. 
I would like to point out that these did happen in what one would consider "nice neighborhoods". Is it likely to happen around here, no, but no one is completely safe. 

I didn't get a GSD for protection, but I definitely enjoy the thought of it.


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## jarn

yup, a dog is (usually) helpful for clearing the sidewalk when running! i'd be lying if i said that wasn't nice









whereabouts down east are you? i have family from new brunswick (small place that doesn't really exist anymore, but a lot of family lives around petticodiac) and nova scotia (my dad grew up inland on a tidal river not far from the bay of fundy). 

my area is getting worse - and i've noticed it since i got luc, i guess b/c i'm out more, even though i ran before. the street/drug activity has definitely increased, as has the obvious prostitution (still not bad i don't think, more that i've actually picked up on it). there was a shooting 200M from my house wednesday night, which bothers me since i walked teagan by the restaurant where it happened aobut 20minutes before hand. but there - i don't know that i feel protected by the dogs, but i would have been HORRIFIED if something had happened to teagan. that really bothers me. my neighbourhood is still largely a nice working class neighbourhood, but one of toronto's more notorious neighbourhoods is just south and it's gentrifying, so things change here. but i really do believe it's mostly attitude. if you act frightened, like a victim, then you'll be one. yes, anyone can get caught in crossfire, but as an overall deterent, attitude is good. 

chris - does french ring have the same sort of obedience/tracking exercise SchH does? that's interesting they seem to have such different takes on the bitework.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: jarn
> chris - does french ring have the same sort of obedience/tracking exercise SchH does? that's interesting they seem to have such different takes on the bitework.


There is no tracking in french ring.
There is obedience but it is not as complicated as SchH, nor is the same level of precision required. It's more "does the dog mind" than "does the dog mind perfectly, always in correct position and showing enthusiasm and focus". Same goes for the obedience during the protection phase. Ring just requires basic control, not the level of precision needed in SchH. Ring also has some physical agility tests going over walls and jumps as in SchH, but the Ring obstacles are a bit more difficult (higher walls, etc..).

Some will argue the less strict obedience of Ring is more sensical and practical for "real life". Others will argue that the greater precision needed in SchH is a better test of temperament and training. Neither is necessarily more controlled than the other, just different rules and different expectations of the dog.

You can find the rules for both SchH and Ring on-line if you want the nitty gritty details and differences.


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## lhczth

Coming in late to this.

Yes, one trained PPD that also does SchH (it is possible) and at least one more that would do PPD and will be trained eventually. BUT I use them more as a deterrent. Anyone getting past them would face Mr. Colt or maybe Mr. Ruger.









I live in the middle of no where. I have GSD because I have always loved the breed. I train SchH because I love it. Do the PPD training for practical purposes and because it is something more to do with the dogs.


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## Castlemaid

Wow! Great questions, great answers! Not a day goes by that I don't learn new stuff on this board. 

I do Schutzhund for fun, however I'd never consider my dog to be a protection dog. First, I didn't get her for that, I got her as a companion, and I see it as MY job to protect her. The visual deterent of a large dog is just a free bonus that came with the package.

If things got really sticky, mine would run (and I'd be right behind her!) That's fine with me. If I can't protect her, she has every right to try and protect herself. 

Jarn, I'm wondering, on this other board, where there are so many PPD dogs, I wonder, how many of these dogs actually ARE trained protection dogs. How many people set out to find and buy a fully trained dog (which will cost probably 10,000 or more) and commit to maintenance training, or how many people did the intensive/time-consuming training themselves with a puppy acquired for specifically protection? 

What I'm thinking is that there are a lot of people out there with nerve-bag fear-barkers at the end of the leash that bark blindly and histerically at anything that moves, and the owners, not knowing any different, brag about their "naturally protective, bad-a** protection dog. So are these protection dogs REAL protection dogs, or just dogs that act agressive, with no real training.


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## DanL

Castlemaid- you hit the nail on the head. People think because their dog barks and might take a fear nip out of someone that the dog is protecting them. How many times do you hear people talking about their 6 to 10 month old pup protecting them? A lot, but a dog that young is just not mature enough to protect. The defense and fight drives are not there yet. 

We have a lady at our club who has a bloodhound that she swears protects her kids. Yeah right. The dog is a slobbery sweetheart. It barks at strangers, thats all. My Dane pup does the same thing. Is it intimidating to have a dog that is over 6' tall on it's hind legs barking at you? Sure, but she'd never protect us. Just like the bloodhound, if you ran at her, she'd run away. 

A guy at our club has a nice looking white GSD he rescued. It will never be a protection dog, but he keeps working him to try and get him better. He's doing a lot of things wrong, pushing the dog too far too soon, and he won't listen to the more experienced people when they give him advice, but what can you do. I've seen the dog go into complete avoidance when the decoy does so much as crack the whip. The dog will be running at the decoy, the decoy cracks the whip, the dog peels off to the side and never engages, just barks. The dog will try and take cheap bites, more to try and get the bad guy to go away, rather than to engage him. He sure barks up a storm, but he's like a 14 year old challenging someone to a fight- a lot of talk, and when go time comes, he really doesn't want to be there. Will that dog protect? In the sense that it's a big dog with a big bark and it will take a cheap shot chunk out of someone, and if that's what you call protection, yes. If someone challenged the dog? Not on your life.


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## jarn

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
> 
> What I'm thinking is that there are a lot of people out there with nerve-bag fear-barkers at the end of the leash that bark blindly and histerically at anything that moves, and the owners, not knowing any different, brag about their "naturally protective, bad-a** protection dog. So are these protection dogs REAL protection dogs, or just dogs that act agressive, with no real training.


funny you should say that! i've been thinking maybe the same. 

i noticed w/luc when we were having issues w/his territorial aggression, a lot of ppl (not GSD ppl necessarily, but other dog owners) didn't understand why it was a problem if he barked/growled at ppl in the park at night - that was 'what a GSD is supposed to do' and 'great situational awareness'.

but that makes no sense. if a therapy or assistance dog did that, albeit in a different context, i'm pretty sure they'd be judged as sharp/poor nerves and not good candidates for the program.

i really wonder if a lot of the protective behaviour - especially when it's casual - that people are so happy with isn't actually a sign of some issue w/their dog. i know GSDs are smart, but i'm not sure they are that smart. i don't know though - it seems a lot of people say 'they become protective around 2 yo' and are very happy with that behaviour. 

i really wonder if that's good behaviour or if there are a lot of sharp dogs. i'm with you on that.


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## Catu

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> Much of it is also breed tendencies. Mals as a whole are known to be fliers on long bites. But many of those fliers actually lack true commitment to the fight and are working mostly in prey. GSDs, who tend to be more likely to work out of aggression and have more commitment to fighting, generally don't fly through the air but rather launch straight into the helpers center of mass trying to bowl him over. And a Rottie, no matter how nice or serious it is, just isn't likely to be a flier. Rotties just aren't.
> 
> Also, dogs can be artificially taught to fly on courage tests by helpers always backing up at the last minute in training. Likewise, dogs can be discouraged from flying on courage tests by helpers who dodge them during training. A flying dog is an easy one for the helper to get out of the way of since the dog is in the air and already committed to it's trajectory. So training can also play a large part in what the dog does as he learns from experience what does and doesn't work.


I unintentionally ended teaching a Mali to fly on the bite suit. As I'm lighter the dog learned that if he charged with enough speed and strength and with a large leap he could easily knock me down and the he used the same tecnique in other decoys. So good the suit is cushioned, because I could flight several meters with the impact too.

BTW, this dog had been trained for protection demonstrations (for the show of it) using elements of ring training. When a man entered in his house with the intention of rape the fourteen y/o daughter of his owner this same dog, trained with the suit, torn up the man's chest and send him to UCI.


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## lhczth

I think most people don't understand that their snarling, hackled, nasty sounding dog is just displaying weak nerves and not being protective. Of course most people on the other end of the leash don't understand this either so the dogs will "protect" their handlers from those types of people. A good PPD needs to be clear headed and have the same exceptional nerves as the GSD doing USAR, PSD, etc.


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## novarobin

> Originally Posted By: jarnwhereabouts down east are you? i have family from new brunswick (small place that doesn't really exist anymore, but a lot of family lives around petticodiac) and nova scotia (my dad grew up inland on a tidal river not far from the bay of fundy).


I spent a few years in Fredericton and Miramichi (if you couldn't tell by the name Chatham) . I am from Cape Breton. 




> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidWhat I'm thinking is that there are a lot of people out there with nerve-bag fear-barkers at the end of the leash that bark blindly and histerically at anything that moves, and the owners, not knowing any different, brag about their "naturally protective, bad-a** protection dog. So are these protection dogs REAL protection dogs, or just dogs that act agressive, with no real training.


I agree with that. There was a conversation on a Lab forum that I read too about if people thought their lab would attack for them. Alot of people felt that he/she would. I think they feel the same way, that if their lab barks at something in the dark bushes, he will attack whatever it is when it comes out. Almost all of the most experienced dog handlers on the board believed a lab would not. My lab definitely would not. He will bark, the hackles come up but backs up if engaged. 

Now Kaper, as I mentioned in another thread on the behavior board, is becoming very protective since Chatham and I moved in (mostly of Chatham). The problem seems to be that if we are not paying attention and someone enters the room or house, Kaper will go into protection mode until we acknowledge the person. In one situation, our roommate had been upstairs all night. When she came quietly into the basement where we were, Kaper went right up to her and barked (as he would in a stand off). It wasn't his usual bark, it was more threatening. We have been working on that but just the behavior there makes me think that he would engage someone.


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## jarn

my dad was born in sydney, but he was adopted by a family on the mainland, just down past digby. 

i had a conversation w/my friends last night, the ones w/the dogs who bite people - and they both agreed that the labX w/the 4 human bites record would 'protect' my female friend. 

....they've been going to aggression control classes, but i don't think they get it....sigh. 

honestly - i don't think it's all that fair to trade on the image of your dog breed is tough, or to put that forward, when you don't have a properly trained dog. yes, 99% of the time it might be a deterrent, but what happens when it isn't? it seems highly unfair to put your dog in that position, in addition to being possibly dangerous.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidWhat I'm thinking is that there are a lot of people out there with nerve-bag fear-barkers at the end of the leash that bark blindly and histerically at anything that moves, and the owners, not knowing any different, brag about their "naturally protective, bad-a** protection dog. So are these protection dogs REAL protection dogs, or just dogs that act agressive, with no real training.


This is absolutely, 110% true!

It also should be noted that there is no such thing as a "certified" personal protection dog in the sense that there is no national, or even regional, organization through which to do so, and no set of rules or guidelines for training that the dog's must meet. The protection sports have a rigid set of requirements to earn a title. A Brevet is a Brevet and a SchH3 is a SchH3 (more or less.. not getting into the issues of inconsistencies in judges/trials). The same cannot be said for PPDs.

Those who pander dogs as "Level 1 PPDs" or (my personal favorite) "Executive PPD" are using an arbitrary, made up by themselves and slapped on a dog label as a marketing gimmick. There is no such thing, no organization that tests and certifies these dogs and no list of guidelines that determines what a PPD is. These dogs may or may not even have any training, and if they do have training as there is no set program or evaluation process for PPDs, they are free to use this description as they see fit and one person's "Level 1" and another person's "Level 1" may be two completely different things.


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## Wildtim

OT: but every time I see "Executive protection dog" I picture a GSD in a black suit with sunglasses and a ear piece. ROFL


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## DanL

What about PSA? Isn't that a protection title? Yes, it's a sport, but the decoys there are not there to make the dog look good, they are there to drive the dog off the field.


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## Chris Wild

Yes, PSA would be a legitimate title. But as with any protection sport, a title does not guarantee a true protection dog.


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## DFrost

"the decoys there are not there to make the dog look good, they are there to drive the dog off the field."

If that's true, I'd feel safer with a dog certified by that group than I would with other groups where the decoy is there to make the dog look good.

DFrost


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## Timber1

If you have bonded closely to the dog and someone ever tries to hurt you, your dog's reaction will absolutely leave you in shock.

The key is your relationship to the dog, it has little to do with SCH training or PPD training. I susect some may disagree with the afore-mentioned, but if the dog bonds, he/she is loyal and protective. And, from personal experience, if you are ever in danger, your dog's reaction will scare the ---- out of you.

And no, it is not true with most dogs in general. Without elaborating forever, the German Shepherd dog bonds more closely with its human leader then any dog on the planet. Ask the police and military, after experimeting withthe Belgium Mal for a decade, they are now going back to the GSD.


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## lhczth

The training, though, will give you control and better prepare your dog. A good example is the case in NJ with the dog that is now sentenced to death. If the owners had control and good training on this dog maybe the dog wouldn't be sitting on death row.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Timber1If you have bonded closely to the dog and someone ever tries to hurt you, your dog's reaction will absolutely leave you in shock.
> 
> The key is your relationship to the dog, it has little to do with SCH training or PPD training. I susect some may disagree with the afore-mentioned, but if the dog bonds, he/she is loyal and protective. And, from personal experience, if you are ever in danger, your dog's reaction will scare the ---- out of you.


I agree with this to an extent.....the extent being that I don't EVER EVER want my *dog* to decide when *I* need protecting.


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## big_dog7777

Timber,

I hear what you are saying, but personally I do not want to be in shock of anything my dog does. I don't want surprises. In a time of crisis, when fight or flight is the choice I want to be able to control my dogs AND know if they will choose to run or choose to fight. The only way to know is training, and a dog that has been in stressful situations thoughout training in order to develop confidence and control is much more likely to fight.


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## Catu

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDTimber,
> 
> I hear what you are saying, but personally I do not want to be in shock of anything my dog does. I don't want surprises. In a time of crisis, when fight or flight is the choice I want to be able to control my dogs AND know if they will choose to run or choose to fight. The only way to know is training, and a dog that has been in stressful situations thoughout training in order to develop confidence and control is much more likely to fight.


Ditto!


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## GunnerJones

I find that four GSDs and unstable, irrational behaviour on my part keeps most of the bad guys away....................


keeps alot of other people away too


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## Castlemaid

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar unstable, irrational behaviour on my part keeps most of the bad guys away....................
> 
> 
> keeps alot of other people away too










works for me too!


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## Guest

> Originally Posted By: lhczthThe training, though, will give you control and better prepare your dog. A good example is the case in NJ with the dog that is now sentenced to death. If the owners had control and good training on this dog maybe the dog wouldn't be sitting on death row.


I understand your point, Lisa, but not so sure that's the best example. Yes, it is indeed best to have your dog reliably trained. No argument there of course.

However, the man entered the property after having been told not to. People should not be required to have their dogs trained beyond obedience training to deal with trespassers. Would proper training have prevented this? Probably, because the dog would've been taught to stay. Would it have prevented the man from trespassing? Nope. What would protection trained dogs do if a trespasser entered their area? They would alert and contain the trespasser. Would the man still have swung a rake? Would he have still grabbed the woman and thrown her down? All could've happened and the woman could've just as easily commanded her dog to protect her at that point. The problem in NJ started because the man entered illegally - not because the dog wasn't properly trained. It would've more likely had a better outcome if the dog had been trained but it would not be assured to have.


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## Wildtim

No people shouldn't be required to. But if these people had the scene would have gone differently.

The guy would have been order to keep out.
The dog would have remained on a stay.
The guy enters, the dog stays.
The woman issues a verbal command to the guy to leave, the dog stays.
The guy continues, the dog stays
The dog is sent.
The guy tries to escape in great pain.
The dog is called back.

This whole sequence puts the dog in a much better position in court as it is clear that it didn't make any of the decisions on its own and was simply acting as commanded to protect its owner from a threat she perceived. The outcome might not be different but it would take an even more ignorant and dumber jury to convict the dog in this case.


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## dOg

The fact that their were pups involved certainly didn't help Congo's chances. That is a factor nobody seems to be considering, especially the pinheaded judge.


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## Guest

Good point.


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## alaman

I've got two. When wife goes out, she has one. Me too. Live in country. Got guns too but dogs can warn and can be stopped even after sent while a bullet cannot.


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## Amigo

I live in Mexico and PPD types are very popular here. Gun ownership is illegal for the private citizen but many people have them. If you use a gun to defend yourself, family or home you are in big trouble since guns are illegal but if you use a dog the law is extremely lenient.

There is a whole industry for ppd types here. Some examples of their use are upscale restaurants patrol their vale parking lots with guards using trained dogs. Areas which have a lot of high tech or jewelry stores are routinely using guards with trained dogs. You even see them escorting merchandise from delivery vehicles into stores. Wealthy people who have insurance policies against kidnapping can actually be required to have a ppd with specific training depending on the policy. 

Training for “personal protection” is easy to find here and many business and home owners have trained dogs. Protection dogs generally have specific training that is tailored for a specific need. Some only attack on command and others attack when they sense a threat or aggression others are trained only to attack when there is physical contact regardless of command or threat. The possibilities of training for a PPD are endless.

The sport dog who may bite for real was never trained to defended against a car jacking, kidnapping, multiple attackers, attacking indoors, etc. A sport dog is just that, it may be capable of biting “for real” in some situations and in others not. If one needs a personal protection trained dog generally there is real threat or high potential of danger because they are not cheap. Even with the high price its probably cheaper than being in the hospital after being attacked.

Most people really don’t need a personal body guard (PPD) and never meet one. When someone tells you I have a PPD ask them….. Will you bet your life and that of your family on it?

Sincerely


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## Stormsmom555

I feel better having 3 around. Plus they make good company.


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## rusti_knight

I didn't read every page too deeply, but I did train my dog in personal protection.

After she was fully obedience trained and under my control.

It was partially to give her a job to do, and she does it well, watching the comings and goings outside and being the first to check the door when someone is there. There is no fear response from something rustling in the bushes, she just watches and waits. Anybody who wasn't threatening wouldn't know she was trained, and that's how I like it, and that's how I intend the next one to be.

I'm a single woman and I live alone, I don't have a gun yet and even if she is mostly just my buddy, she's still a certain amount of comfort.


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## bearlasmom

Tim, i hate to interupt such a fantastic conversation here. im learning alot. i am trying to get bearla more undercontrol with her fear aggression so to speak. DH calls it that anyway. 
what i wanted to mention though was that in toronto, on, we had a dog recently come before the court that had been trained as a PPD. it did everything by the book. The Justice, did not agree however and the dog was considered nasty and dangerous. The poor soul was put down. Bearla is great as a PPD. BUT going to a vet brings another side out. her hackles raise and that is that. once the hackles come up she starts barking like a demon, its like she is a diferent dog. Take her outside away from the vets office and those in it and she is calm and will allow the vet to rub her ears etc. go back in and demon dog arises again. She will not run. sometime s i wish she would. we have ben working with her for 2 1/2 yrs now on it because she hates strange dogs that are not GSD. (she was attacked as a pup. ) i was wondering how you can control this in a PPD. she works on command easily. She takes instruction, even when afraid, but wont stop barking and trying to charge initially. i hope im not hijacking the thread here by asking these questions or making the observation. if i have, i appologise


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## Chris Wild

What you are describing would not happen in a good PPD. A dog with proper nerve, temperament and training is not going to go off in these situations. There is no fear element, no lack of confidence, and no psychotic desire to attack just to attack. A dog who shows any of those tendencies has NO business being a PPD.

Part of owning a PPD is also proper training, management and vigilance on the part of the owner to recognize situations that may cause the dog to react in appropriately. So the training and experience of the handler is an extra safeguard in situations where the dog may make a mistake in judgement.


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## jarn

what chris said is my understanding as well (funny i started this thread and now i'm wondering about doing this kind of training, though for fun).

who do you work bearla with? what sort of PP training has she had?


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## bearlasmom

Bearla does receive proper training and we are constantly vigilent of her and her actions. The only time that she ever gets upset and acts in that way is when she is at the vet. At no other time. Her bahaviorist, states that she has issues with vets and clinics because she has had nothing but bad things happen to her in the past. We are taking her in ever couple of days to be weighed and she seems to be very slowly calming down. The vet can play ball with her in the parking lot and can come to visit her at home. Try to get her in a clinic and the muzzle has to be on.


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## bearlasmom

we are working with whos walking who in ajax. The behaviorist comes to our home right now and once we get into the heavier training to have her registered as a PPD due to insurance reasons for the company that we own, she will go out there with us a few times week.


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## jarn

who's walking who does PPD training? or are you using someone else? i'm curious about who trains it in the toronto area.


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## bearlasmom

whos walking who is working with the fear aggression and then we will go on from there at a site. i am looking for one that can help me train her to be a professional PPD


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## bearlasmom

whos walking who is working with the fear aggression and then we will go on from there at a site. i am looking for one that can help me train her to be a professional PPD and i will eventually have to probably train her too be my ears, i dont know if she can be trained to do both can she?


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## Romance

bearlasmom, Don't sweat it my friend, Those of us that know you and your dog, know beyond a doubt that she receives proper training.
bearla had a trauma happen at the vet's office. and traumas to pups are not easily gotten over.
Those that don't know you or your dog are always going to have something negative to gripe at you for. I have pretty much decided to give up posting anything or any question on this board because of the outright bulling that goes on with out repercussions.


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## bearlasmom

Thank you, Bearla said to say thank you for the support as well and she gives a paw to you.















its frustrating trying to find the type of trainer that you want that can deal with the aggression issues as well as training her to be a PPD but i have also been told that i shouldnt train her to protect the family if she is going to be my ears when the menieres disease takes them out.


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## jarn

i'm not trying to be negative at all....just wondering, do you think it's a good idea to train her as a PPD if she has fear aggresson issues? i'm sure you could find someone who would do it, i'm just wondering from a safetly/liability standpoint. 

....i agree the search for trainers can be frustrating though! i've been getting help from a guy out niagara way.....

i've seen on other boards discussions about service dogs being trained in bitework, and the general consensus seemed to be that while it was possible, it wasn't a good idea, b/c of the standards service dogs need to be held to, and the public perception, if anything ever happened and the dog went off. but it isn't something i have personal knowledge/experience of. i do know that when i spoke to the toronto police mounted/dog division (to find out more info on any possible legal issues w/having a PPD), the officer there told me that it happens that their dogs go off when they aren't supposed to, so it's something to consider.


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## Chris Wild

Well, I'll probably be accused of "bullying" but my opinion is:

A dog with fear or fear aggression issues should NOT be trained in personal protection.

A service dog should NOT be crosstrained in personal protection, and a PPD should NOT be crosstrained as a service dog.


I suspect much of the difficulty finding a trainer for this isn't the lack of qualified trainers, but because most qualified trainers know better than to do either of the above.


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## DFrost

I totally agree with Chris Wild. I train law enforcement dogs for a living. I would never select or train a dog with fear issues in any type of protection/controlled aggression. There are many reasons why this isn't really a good idea. Among them are, the dog would never be dependable and it would be a serious liability.

DFrost


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## jarn

DFrost, can i ask....in your experience w/LE dogs, how common is it that they 'go off'? 

....i can understand it happens, but after speaking to the police here and the guy mentioning it happens regularly....that surprised me.


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## DFrost

I'm not exactly sure by what you mean when you say "go off. The dog is supposed to be under control. In our program, the dog is permitted to bite on only two occasions; when it's commanded and when the officer is attacked. Control is an issue only when it's allowed to be. Certainly in high charged situations, running, yelling, gunfire, emotions and adrenelin flowing, the dog is also charged and perhaps more difficult to control. None-the-less, just arbitrarily becoming aggressive, without any provocation is not a good thing.

DFrost


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## jarn

sorry, i meant go for someone when they're not supposed to. 

i can see that it could happen, especially in highly charged situations, but i always saw PSD as falling into the 'very well controlled category'. 

the officer i spoke to said cheerfully 'at least it's the city who pays them (the people the dog went for) off'.


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## Chris Wild

As with anything else, not all PSDs are created equal with regards to temperament and training. And even a dog with excellent temperament, training and handling can still make a mistake, and a lapse in judgement on the dog or handler's part, or even a split second's failure to pay attention to what's going, can lead to bad situation.


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## DFrost

Our philosophy is: an accidental dog bite should occur no more often than an accidental weapon discharge.

DFrost


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## jarn

that makes total sense to me.


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## GoorHauskennels

Hi im new but just want to say We All Got German Shepherds Because there FREAKIN THE BEST DOGS IN THE WORLD!!!!!! Thank you.lol


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## UNCMan

I have a PPD dog. My family and I have gone through extensive training on handling our dog and it's an on going training for all of us...including Tucker! We have two daughters both under 4 but both work with Tucker on a daily basis. It's very cool to watch my 3 year old walking a 90lb GSD down the street. He's a family dog first and a PPD only when given the command to do so. It's very comforting having him protecting my family. Thank you CPI


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## pets4life

wow nice posts chris wild very informational thanks it goes exactly with everything i have experienced

I train my dog in pp because she loves it and because i enjoy it but it is very hard to find a good trainer and you need to do a lot of research to find a decent trainer and not some scum bag out to rip you off and train your dog in some messed up way before buying my dog from eurosport i asked for a dog that would be good in this.


My current trainer told me many dogs including shepherds get rejected as in he tells the owners that he wont train their dogs they dont have the proper drives for it and trying to train them would be cruel. So start off with the right dog then the right trainer.


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## dzg

Schutzhund is a sport and doesn't have much to to do with personal protection imo

Also the idea of having a PPD is ludicrous.
Does anyone on these forums practice law? Do you understand the concept of "reasonable force"?

Think about it for a minute, if someone seriously wants to do you harm then trust me they will. It just depends how bad they want to get you.

The best trained PPD is still susceptible to a machete, a bullet or a piece of meat with poison. 

I lived in Africa, people own GSD's there as guard dogs, no dog ever stopped the bad guys from a house invasion because the bad guys used lethal force on anything that got in their way. Some people had 4-5 GSD's, all dead in a matter of minutes, didn't help one bit.

At best a GSD (any GSD, not a PPD) is a visual deterrent (and that alone will stop 99% of any bad guys) and can buy you some time in an emergency situation by holding a bad guy at bay, but all it takes is a knife and the dog is gone.

Analogy - its like an umbrella, helps when the sh!t hits the fan but won't do a thing when the sewer backs up and floods the basement.


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## NWHeather

dzg said:


> Schutzhund is a sport and doesn't have much to to do with personal protection imo
> 
> Also the idea of having a PPD is ludicrous.
> Does anyone on these forums practice law? Do you understand the concept of "reasonable force"?
> 
> Think about it for a minute, if someone seriously wants to do you harm then trust me they will. It just depends how bad they want to get you.
> 
> The best trained PPD is still susceptible to a machete, a bullet or a piece of meat with poison.
> 
> I lived in Africa, people own GSD's there as guard dogs, no dog ever stopped the bad guys from a house invasion because the bad guys used lethal force on anything that got in their way. Some people had 4-5 GSD's, all dead in a matter of minutes, didn't help one bit.
> 
> At best a GSD (any GSD, not a PPD) is a visual deterrent (and that alone will stop 99% of any bad guys) and can buy you some time in an emergency situation by holding a bad guy at bay, but all it takes is a knife and the dog is gone.
> 
> Analogy - its like an umbrella, helps when the sh!t hits the fan but won't do a thing when the sewer backs up and floods the basement.


I agree with this.
You never know how a dog is going to react in an emergent situation. I feel I have a really good bond with both of my dogs, & I'd like to think that they would step up if needed, but I cannot count on that. I need to be prepared to defend myself (& my dogs). 

While I am not a dog, in many ways, *I* am the pack leader, & it's my job to protect my dogs. 

They are a good deterrant, which will deter many criminals, but if someone is **** bent on gaining access to your house, they're going to.


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## bocron

I fell in love with the GSD as a child after reading a book about a boy and his GSD. The dog in the book was a guide dog and I loved the relationship aspect of the story, so that was my original intent on getting a GSD. Now we have 8. The way I see it, if a "bad guy" is casing my area for reasons of ill intent, my house will most likely get passed by in favor of the neighbor who has no dog. (also their house is twice the size of mine and pretty fancy )


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## ladylaw203

I agree with dzg. A dog can buy me some time hopefully in a real struggle


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## jamassei

*A little police training*

German Shepard police training attack - YouTube


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## ristakrat

I acquired my GSD as a protective companion. At the time my husband and I had just moved to a new state and he was away on business frequently. 
We lived in a neighborhood and much to my husband's request and delight I took my dog with me everywhere.
We now live on a small isolated farm at the top of a mountain. As well as being a reliable personal protection dog our boy is also a fantastic farm guardian and herder. Just goes to show that with a little guidance and training there is nothing a GSD can't do!


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## hunterisgreat

My male is my ppd, my female is my ultra sport dog. She will still bite for real but I wish she had more natural suspicion. I live alone, run a few companies that have potential of causing me to have people who wish me harm either as ex employees, or as other malicious actors. He is a very strong deterrent


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## SewSleepy

H wanted a large dog as a deterrent, not necessarily for protection. I wanted a GSD because I love them 

Our OB trainer also does personal protection training and H has expressed an interest in getting her into that. I'm not sure that's really our thing. I don't think I'm a good enough handler for that.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Catu

jarn said:


> ....maybe it's b/c we're talking GSDs, but i'm fascinated by the number of people who have PPD or guard dogs.
> 
> ....can i be all nosy? where do you generally live? what is your motivation for having one?


I live in an area about 15 km away from town that used to be rural, but more and more people is coming. There is my house, my neighbour's house and hundreds of km2 of forest.

My motivation is the same of the humans of 18.000 years ago who liked to have dogs around their fires.



jarn said:


> (i know when i got luc a friend said 'i've noticed women get large dogs, to protect them' and i was SOOOO insulted. i got a large dog b/c he could keep up w/me physically. also b/c he's a smart dog and i respect that. nothing wrong if you do have/want a PPD/guard dog, i'm just curious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


I'm not insulted at all. I go to places with my dogs where I don't go without them at my side.


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## ed1911

We do bitework for Schutzhund but I wouldent consider them protection dogs. If that is what I wanted I would do scenario based bitework mostly inside my home and in areas where I thought I may be attacked.


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## elisabeth_00117

Stark is doing a form of personal protection and schutzhund (with agility and obedience and tracking mixed in) but he is in no way a "protection dog". He doesn't have the temperament for it. We are doing this type of training for fun and to exercise control.

Zefra trains in schutzhund but would also do extremely well in personal protection, but it's not something that I personally want to get into at this point in time. Probably down the road but for now, I am enjoying schutzhund and learning.

I did not get my dogs with the thought of them protecting me. I always laugh when people are terrified of Stark but are so quick to cuddle on little Zefra. Stark is my mush and would pee himself if someone came at me or him while Zefra would be excited for the fight.. lol.


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## Muneraven

Dogs are a very good deterrent when you don't make the mistake of thinking they will be able to handle any kind of threat. A "Beware of Dogs" sign and enthusiastic barkers will often make the casual burglar moved on. However, there is no ultimate deterrent like a a shotgun aimed down the stairs at unwanted visitors. That's why we have one in the bedroom.


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