# Why is it so necessary to some to title a dog?



## GSDluv22

My question is why is it a MUST to some people to title a dog? If the dog has a good pedigree, health tested, hips/elbows and a good temperament isn’t that the most important things? I want to breed to improve on structure and temperament. I see too many broken down shepherds with no confidence. I also live in a small town and there’s never any events around so I don’t even know how to get a dog titled. Im genuinely curious. Please no rude comments because I know everyone freaks out over breeding. I just want the information.


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## Steve Strom

Its something tangible. It shows capabilities in the dog that have been judged by someone other then the breeder. Without something like that, its just word and the opinion of the breeder. A breeder who actively does something formal/judged with their dogs gains knowledge from it and makes their word and opinion that much more valuable. Does that make more sense?


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## LuvShepherds

People aren’t freaking out over breeding, but want to make sure someone new to breeding gets experience and does it responsibly. We usually suggest finding a mentor to learn proper breeding methods. Backyard breeders and puppy mills don’t title their dogs, so titling is just one indication that puppies from those dogs might be well bred. Pedigree is another tool used to judge good breeding prospects, as are getting all recommended health clearances. If you want to breed healthy puppies with good temperaments you need to start with the best parents you can find. The dogs should be trained and have sound temperaments. It takes about 3 years to title a dog, so dogs being bred won’t be too young if they are titled. It also shows they are capable of working. Breeding dogs should be as close to breed standard as possible, taking line differences into account. It is time consuming and expensive to title, so some breeders use titled males and untitled but trained females, or test their females in other ways.


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## Chip Blasiole

Firstly, titling a dog in one of the protection sports should be something you enjoy and you need a good dog and access to very training, which is not very common. Also, a good dog and a great dog is a combination of genetics and a handler’s skill. The cream of the crop are similar to Olympic athletes in that the genetics have to be there, a sophisticated training team has to be there, and commitment has to be there. How do you determine a pedigree is “good” and that temperament is “ good” without training a dog to a high level. Again, the Olympic analogy is relevant. 
If you have to ask this question, you have no business breeding and will never improve the breed. Not trying to be rude, just honest.


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## Steve Strom

Banned, Lol.


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## LuvShepherds

Steve Strom said:


> Banned, Lol.


That was fast. First post, too. Well, we still gave good answers, LOL.


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## David Winners

Repeat offender


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## WNGD

David Winners said:


> Repeat offender


I was going to ask why were they banned....


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## David Winners

Many, many banned accounts


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## Pytheis

It’s _so weird _that said person keeps coming back with new accounts to stir things up, even months later.


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## David Winners

Pytheis said:


> It’s _so weird _that said person keeps coming back with new accounts to stir things up, even months later.


Years later


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## WNGD

How do we know it's the same person? Same sign up name or IP address?


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## Pytheis

WNGD said:


> How do we know it's the same person? Same sign up name or IP address?


They go by IP address.


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## middleofnowhere

Back to titling dogs --- because knowledgeable people who are seeking to purchase a pup would like to know that the parents have been titled. It shows the breeder is doing something more than just breeding dogs with the intent of making money. It shows that they do something with their dogs and that the dog has some level of talent in the case of performance titles, that it meets the breed standard in the case of conformation titles.Involvement. 
In my case, it was a condition when I bought my first dog. (as in "bought my first dog" not got my first dog). The dogs loved the work whether or not we ever got a title.


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## Chip Blasiole

Consider that some breed for police dogs and are not at all involved in titling their stock or minimally so. Actually, some of the better stud dogs are extreme and would not likely be able to be titled, depending on the sport. Such dogs will produce some dogs very similar to them that are not good sport candidates, produce some that are very good sport candidates, and some duds. IMO, a problem in IGP is people breeding top level podium dogs to each other due to their reputation as a top sport dog, but those top dogs are typically not the strongest dogs. A lot has to do with training, how the dog matches up to the handler's training program, and some are just not serious dogs but have great obedience, tracking and look great on a sleeve with huge grips but no real pressure applied in IGP.


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## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> Consider that some breed for police dogs and are not at all involved in titling their stock or minimally so. Actually, some of the better stud dogs are extreme and would not likely be able to be titled, depending on the sport. Such dogs will produce some dogs very similar to them that are not good sport candidates, produce some that are very good sport candidates, and some duds. IMO, a problem in IGP is people breeding top level podium dogs to each other due to their reputation as a top sport dog, but those top dogs are typically not the strongest dogs. A lot has to do with training, how the dog matches up to the handler's training program, and some are just not serious dogs but have great obedience, tracking and look great on a sleeve with huge grips but no real pressure applied in IGP.


I don’t know of many breeders here in America or abroad, who are breeding to podium dogs simply because they are podium dogs. I also believe that if a dog is so extreme that he can’t be titled, he probably shouldn’t be a breeding candidate. The vast majority of breeders not titling their dogs are breeding terrible dogs. I also find the my dog is too real to title statement as marketing trash from people too lazy to work their dogs. It’s one thing if a dog has a career a police or military dog and then was used for breeding. It’s entirely different for a dog that has never been evaluated objectively by a third party to be used. Even then, all police and military dogs aren’t created equal. The breeds producing the best working dogs have a titling system.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t know of many breeders here in America or abroad, who are breeding to podium dogs simply because they are podium dogs. I also believe that if a dog is so extreme that he can’t be titled, he probably shouldn’t be a breeding candidate. The vast majority of breeders not titling their dogs are breeding terrible dogs. I also find the my dog is too real to title statement as marketing trash from people too lazy to work their dogs. It’s one thing if a dog has a career a police or military dog and then was used for breeding. It’s entirely different for a dog that has never been evaluated objectively by a third party to be used. Even then, all police and military dogs aren’t created equal. The breeds producing the best working dogs have a titling system.


You have to breed the extreme dogs if not for any other reason than to keep the genetics alive. Aggression would be all too easily lost if you didn't.


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## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You have to breed the extreme dogs if not for any other reason than to keep the genetics alive. Aggression would be all too easily lost if you didn't.


A dog that is so extreme he can’t be controlled should not be used.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> A dog that is so extreme he can’t be controlled should not be used.


It is such breeding practices that have produced the two dogs at your feet. Today, it is not so common, hence the number of Labs in GSD clothing. Really think about the genetics and recessives involved or , and no disrespect, discuss breeding and genetics with a trusted breeder who is producing dogs with the right stuff. It's a balancing act.


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## UnlimitedGSD

If you don't title (which includes the much more important element of training) - you don't really know your dogs. I had a dog, nice pedigree, passing health... dog was a sh*t show outside of my property. He would never have earned a title. But as a buyer, you'd never know if I bred him and just told you he was great.
IMO, there is also the $$. It's relatively cheap to just x-ray a dog and then breed it. What are people paying you for as a breeder? The time and expense I put into training and trialing my dogs is what they are paying for - to ensure the quality of my dogs. People will argue that the quality doesn't change just because I train/title, but look at a pedigree full of great dogs without titles and then look at a pedigree full of backyard bred dogs and point out the difference?
There is more to the breed than health and temperament. There is working ability, conformation, bidability, nerve, drives etc..


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## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is such breeding practices that have produced the two dogs at your feet. Today, it is not so common, hence the number of Labs in GSD clothing. Really think about the genetics and recessives involved or , and no disrespect, discuss breeding and genetics with a trusted breeder who is producing dogs with the right stuff. It's a balancing act.


Point to the dog in Cion’s pedigree that is so extreme they couldn’t be controlled.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> Point to the dog in Cion’s pedigree that is so extreme they couldn’t be controlled.


It wasn't a specific comment as much as a generalization regarding generations of breeding GSDs. I have not seen your dog's pedigree, nor do I need to, but there are many dogs with no titles or minimal titles even in the best of hands that are used prolifically in breeding programs and appear in many pedigrees. There was much truth to Chip's post.


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## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It wasn't a specific comment as much as a generalization regarding generations of breeding GSDs. I have not seen your dog's pedigree, nor do I need to, but there are many dogs with no titles or minimal titles even in the best of hands that are used prolifically in breeding programs and appear in many pedigrees. There was much truth to Chip's post.


There is a difference between minimal titles and no titles, a big one at that. The sire of Cion is an extreme dog. He is not an easy dog to train or handle. While he is a titled dog, he is not a points dog. He is not a dog you will ever see at a national competition. The fact that he is titled proves that he can be trained and controlled however. Show me a pedigree of a great working dog with no titles in, and show me a pedigree of a great working dog filled with titles. Tell me which one is more common.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> There is a difference between minimal titles and no titles, a big one at that. The sire of Cion is an extreme dog. He is not an easy dog to train or handle. While he is a titled dog, he is not a points dog. He is not a dog you will ever see at a national competition. The fact that he is titled proves that he can be trained and controlled however. Show me a pedigree of a great working dog with no titles in, and show me a pedigree of a great working dog filled with titles. Tell me which one is more common.


I have nothing to disagree with here.. but..

I know of a litter that will be bred the next time the bitch comes into season. The bitch herself has only a BH, not due to the dog but due to the owner's time restraints. The sire is a working dual purpose patrol dog and a proven producer. I was privy to the sire's pedigree and there wasn't a title to be seen. If I were in the market, I would seriously look at this litter.


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## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have nothing to disagree with here.. but..
> 
> I know of a litter that will be bred the next time the bitch comes into season. The bitch herself has only a BH, not due to the dog but due to the owner's time restraints. The sire is a working dual purpose patrol dog and a proven producer. I was privy to the sire's pedigree and there wasn't a title to be seen. If I were in the market, I would seriously look at this litter.





Bearshandler said:


> It’s one thing if a dog has a career a police or military dog and then was used for breeding. It’s entirely different for a dog that has never been evaluated objectively by a third party to be used.


I would have to personally see the female and test her, or really trust the breeder. I would also need to see and interact with the sire. That would be a unicorn pedigree among shepherds.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> I would have to personally see the female and test her, or really trust the breeder. I would also need to see and interact with the sire. That would be a unicorn pedigree among shepherds.


I was kind of surprised at the sire's pedigree myself. He was a Czech import and maybe that has something to do with it. 

The bitch is fine, another Czech import, and I have no doubt she would earn your stamp of approval.


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## Chip Blasiole

There are many variables. I know of one GSD that obtained his IGP 3, but in trying to fix issues in the blind, the training was poor and the dog because extremely handler aggressive, like an in the ED injury to the handler, and the dog was sent back to Germany to be used as a stud dog. It sounded like a case of making a good dog unstable due to poor training. Dogs can be extreme in other drives like prey and food drive and trying to title them is not worth the effort and the owner knows the dog has very good genetics. It also depends on the sport a dog is being trained for. Most KNPV dogs that are good police dog candidates only are trained to a PH1 and then sold as a police prospect. Those are mostly Mal X's but also some GSDs. IMO, IGP is not a good way to assess a dog's working ability and leads to dilution of the breed due to being bred to win at IGP and no real test of the dogs' nerves and aggression.. A good trainer who knows the bloodlines they are working with can tell if a dog is breed worthy without titling the dog. Also, remember that all show line GSDs have to have a title to get their pink papers and I haven't seen one worth breeding, yet they are competing in the same sport as the working line GSDs. I also think too many GSD breeders have put way too much emphasis on physical traits since the development of the breed in the working and show lines.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I'm sure there are untitled litters that are great. 

But it is probably a very small percentage and for the average person looking for a puppy, even the average breeder, titles should remain a gold standard.

And not TKN, CGC, RN

I see dogs pop up from time to time with 10 title abbreviations after their name but most of them are bottom level, and/or remote submit, one try, stuff that most pet owners could achieve if they put their mind to it.

I think there is a lot to be learned and value in non protection sports titles too. I've learned an incredible amount about my dogs in the sports we do. Strengths, weaknesses, how that dog learns, how that dog works with its person. Can the dog work in an environment the handler doesn't control. How does the dog travel. Respond to new environments, at night, etc. Feedback on the dog from a person who has nothing to gain or lose by giving it- and a judge who has seen a LOT of dogs perform.

That's really valuable. 

There are plenty of sub par dogs out there. It is should be the responsibility of both the breeder and the buyer to try to breed the best. The buyer can influence by getting educated and buying from better breeders.


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## Chip Blasiole

The big problem to me with the GSD is that the breed's native sport and national club do such a great disservice to the breed and it is about money not the breed.


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## ChickiefromTN

So let's talk about the average person getting a puppy. What is their idea of "the best?" What if we took a puppy that Chip thinks is "the best" and gave that to the average puppy buyer? Would they be happy with the dog because it's the best? Would it fit their idea of the best? What percentage of GSD's are actively involved in sports and attempting to get titled? I would love to title my dogs. The closest club for IGP is over 3 hours away. That doesn't fit into most puppy owners schedules. Not to mention the whole issue of club politics. What if my dog is highly trained in PP but not sports, so no title. Does that make the dog not worthy of being bred?

I really haven't completely thought this whole topic through, but my instincts have me leaning more towards Chip's point of view. I think we would all agree on the health issues/testing being a prerequisite. Then most will agree GSD's were intended to be versatile dogs that can excel in numerous capacities. Solid nerves, but then comes the issue of what balance of drives is "the best?" My girl is a pretty intense dog. She would probably be a lot more than the average pet owner could deal with, but she could do well in sports. What about dogs that are proven to be able to "work" in real life but aren't titled such as service dogs? I think limiting breedability to sports is a pretty narrow focus.

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## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> Dogs can be extreme in other drives like prey and food drive and trying to title them is not worth the effort and the owner knows the dog has very good genetics


That may be true for a few breeders, but it is not for most. There are breeders that neither of us think highly of that use such excuses. If you want to go through the effort of breeding the dog, you should be willing to prove your dog has what it takes.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> That may be true for a few breeders, but it is not for most. There are breeders that neither of us think highly of that use such excuses. If you want to go through the effort of breeding the dog, you should be willing to prove your dog has what it takes.


The venue is not always there.


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## UnlimitedGSD

Bearshandler said:


> If you want to go through the effort of breeding the dog, you should be willing to prove your dog has what it takes.


absolutely! There is no rule that says every good dog needs to be bred, if you want to do it, walk the walk....


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## Steve Strom

Bearshandler said:


> That may be true for a few breeders, but it is not for most. There are breeders that neither of us think highly of that use such excuses. If you want to go through the effort of breeding the dog, you should be willing to prove your dog has what it takes.


Sometimes in these threads, I think it comes down to certain areas like No. Cal or So. Cal or other areas, we have access to a lot of different things. Venues, people, dogs. It gives you a different perspective about all of it. Different then just reading about it. Bottom line for me is don't tell me your dogs are capable of one thing when you've never done it and all your dogs do is something else. Trick titles and cgc's mean thats what you can tell me about your dogs. Maybe thats still a dog I want, but I want that kind of honesty.


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## Bearshandler

ChickiefromTN said:


> So let's talk about the average person getting a puppy. What is their idea of "the best?" What if we took a puppy that Chip thinks is "the best" and gave that to the average puppy buyer? Would they be happy with the dog because it's the best? Would it fit their idea of the best? What percentage of GSD's are actively involved in sports and attempting to get titled? I would love to title my dogs. The closest club for IGP is over 3 hours away. That doesn't fit into most puppy owners schedules. Not to mention the whole issue of club politics. What if my dog is highly trained in PP but not sports, so no title. Does that make the dog not worthy of being bred?
> 
> I really haven't completely thought this whole topic through, but my instincts have me leaning more towards Chip's point of view. I think we would all agree on the health issues/testing being a prerequisite. Then most will agree GSD's were intended to be versatile dogs that can excel in numerous capacities. Solid nerves, but then comes the issue of what balance of drives is "the best?" My girl is a pretty intense dog. She would probably be a lot more than the average pet owner could deal with, but she could do well in sports. What about dogs that are proven to be able to "work" in real life but aren't titled such as service dogs? I think limiting breedability to sports is a pretty narrow focus.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Its not about limiting breeding dogs to sports. Its about limiting breeding to dogs with proven working ability. It has already been said multiple times here that a dual purpose patrol/detection dog for instance, will probably have the working ability to be a good breeding dog. There is also the fact that every good dog doesn't need to be bred. The difference between sport and pp is there is not objective measure for a pp dog. It could be a dog that just gets hyped up and bites a sleeve in the backyard. The average dog owner is by no means obligated to do sports or any other work for that matter. They also shouldn't be breeding dogs. The average pet owner is someone I pass everyday on the street who asks about my "fluffy looking shepherd" or tells me they have had shepherds for 40 years but didn't know they came in black. Conceptually, it seems to me that you make the case that anyone who thinks their dog is breed worthy should be breeding their dog, or that everyone has a right to be breeding their dogs.


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## Chip Blasiole

This debate is more a GSD thing than with other working breeds like Mals, Mal X's and DS's especially in Europe where females are not titled that much. I agree that sports, some way more than others, such as IGP vs. KNPV, are a test of handler skill, access to high level helpers/decoys, and that many of the exercises in sports are of no use in predicting working ability and some are actually counter to it. For example, PSA is all about controlled aggression. A very serious, stable, confident dog with forward aggression and very high prey drive is not going to stay under control when decoys are threatening the dog with clatter sticks during obedience or goading them to bite when they are not supposed to. Yet, that type of dog makes a great police dog. I know one breeder of Mal X's who said they would never breed a PSA 3 dog to another PSA 3 dog (of which there are not many) because you are likely to produce dogs that might excel at the sport but lack working ability. Too many breeders breed for GSDs to excel at IGP and I think that has harmed the breed.


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## Thecowboysgirl

ChickiefromTN said:


> So let's talk about the average person getting a puppy. What is their idea of "the best?" What if we took a puppy that Chip thinks is "the best" and gave that to the average puppy buyer? Would they be happy with the dog because it's the best? Would it fit their idea of the best? What percentage of GSD's are actively involved in sports and attempting to get titled? I would love to title my dogs. The closest club for IGP is over 3 hours away. That doesn't fit into most puppy owners schedules. Not to mention the whole issue of club politics. What if my dog is highly trained in PP but not sports, so no title. Does that make the dog not worthy of being bred?
> 
> I really haven't completely thought this whole topic through, but my instincts have me leaning more towards Chip's point of view. I think we would all agree on the health issues/testing being a prerequisite. Then most will agree GSD's were intended to be versatile dogs that can excel in numerous capacities. Solid nerves, but then comes the issue of what balance of drives is "the best?" My girl is a pretty intense dog. She would probably be a lot more than the average pet owner could deal with, but she could do well in sports. What about dogs that are proven to be able to "work" in real life but aren't titled such as service dogs? I think limiting breedability to sports is a pretty narrow focus.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


For one thing, there are TONS of "service dogs" out there "working", who have absolutely no business doing it because it is completely unregulated. These days, telling me your dog has a Companion Dog title just about tells me more than saying it is a "service dog", because at least I know exactly what the dog had to do minimally to get that title and that it did it 3 times for 2 different AKC judges.

I live in a pretty remote area and still manage to title my dogs. 

If a dog is truly a service dog there is absolutely no reason why it can't go easily earn some AKC titles to prove it.


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## ChickiefromTN

Bearshandler said:


> Conceptually, it seems to me that you make the case that anyone who thinks their dog is breed worthy should be breeding their dog, or that everyone has a right to be breeding their dogs.


That's not at all what I meant to imply. I'm not a breeder, but I know a handful of breeders. It just seems that so many people think that a dog being titled in sports is the ONLY way to produce a quality dog and I just think that's a pretty narrow-minded view. 


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## MineAreWorkingline

ChickiefromTN said:


> That's not at all what I meant to imply. I'm not a breeder, but I know a handful of breeders. It just seems that so many people think that a dog being titled in sports is the ONLY way to produce a quality dog and I just think that's a pretty narrow-minded view.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Excellent point.


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## BigOzzy2018

There are great dogs that are titled and worth breeding if done for the right reasons but....there are crap dogs titled and should not be bred period but it’s done all the time. So for me a title is nice but does that title really show what the dog has done to earn that title? Nervy dogs with poor temperament can get a IGP title but that dog will be bred because it has a title. I’ve seen it many times. 
my boy parents are not titled and look at my boy....excellent temperament, nerves, drives etc. The rest of his pedigree is titled but guess what I did not buy him because of his parents but because of his grandparents.

so in the end titles don’t mean squat but nice to have on the right type of dog.


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## WNGD

One of the issues is that your average pet quality GSD buyer doesn't necessarily want to part with 2500-$3000

They want a balanced, friendly, never chew/bite, pre-trained, never illness, perfectly proportioned wonder-dog for BYB prices. How much are fraserglen puppies?


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## Bearshandler

ChickiefromTN said:


> That's not at all what I meant to imply. I'm not a breeder, but I know a handful of breeders. It just seems that so many people think that a dog being titled in sports is the ONLY way to produce a quality dog and I just think that's a pretty narrow-minded view.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I don’t think anyone here thinks the only way to produce a good dog is through sports titles. What I am against is breeding unproven, untested dogs. The conversation about breeding untitled dogs always seems to be I don’t have a convenient way to do sports. It’s never the dogs have been proven in other ways like police work and such. It’s not that titles make a quality dog, but they are a good starting point.


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## Jen84

WNGD said:


> One of the issues is that your average pet quality GSD buyer doesn't necessarily want to part with 2500-$3000
> 
> They want a balanced, friendly, never chew/bite, pre-trained, never illness, perfectly proportioned wonder-dog for BYB prices. How much are fraserglen puppies?


What is average price of BYB dog, $1000 ?

If German Shepherd lives until at least 10 years, that is $100/year versus $250/year.

Puppies are a crap shoot and you want to put all the odds in your favor. Paying an extra $150/year (which is a couple bags of dog food) is worth it to support a reputable breeder versus a hack.


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## Thecowboysgirl

You can certainly make an argument for why titles don't mean anything for proving a dog. I guess my question is, if you know your untitled dog is a great dog, how do you know that? What pressure, stresses, and neutral third parties confirmed your opinion?

There are probably some breeders out there with enough lifetime experience that their word on their untitled dog would be sufficient. 

But if you aren't that person, why WOULDN'T you title your dog?


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## Jen84

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I guess my question is, if you know your untitled dog is a great dog, how do you know that?





Chip Blasiole said:


> A good trainer who knows the bloodlines they are working with can tell if a dog is breed worthy without titling the dog.





Thecowboysgirl said:


> But if you aren't that person, why WOULDN'T you title your dog?


$$$$$


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## ChickiefromTN

I agree it can be a good starting point, but then let me ask what sports titles "count?" I see sports people talking down other sports all the time which saddens me. Is it only the protection and ring sports that can prove a dog? What about agility or dock diving? What about carting? I had to mention that because I never knew such a sport existed until just a few days ago. In the real world a carting title could be a lot more practical than an IGP title. _sigh_ I think a lot of times it comes off as a kind of snobby attitude that turns pet people off. And I'm NOT calling anyone here snobby, I'm talking about what I read in FB groups every day.

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## Chip Blasiole

Jen84,
I am titling my dog. He has his PSA PDC and were are preparing for the PSA1. It is a very challenging sport. Only one GSD in the almost 20 year history of the sport has ever obtained a PSA3.


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## BigOzzy2018

Chip Blasiole said:


> Jen84,
> I am titling my dog. He has his PSA PDC and were are preparing for the PSA1. It is a very challenging sport. Only one GSD in the almost 20 year history of the sport has ever obtained a PSA3.


So because it’s a challenging sport and your dog might earn its title it’s breed worthy? Now if you can title your dog in multiple venues and do well plus have a nice pedigree to back it up then I say sure.


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## BigOzzy2018

I personally love to see multiple titles on breeding dogs. Shows me the dogs are versatile. Now I know it takes a lot of training just to do one sport but other venues are not so challenging imo.


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## Galathiel

ChickiefromTN said:


> I agree it can be a good starting point, but then let me ask what sports titles "count?" I see sports people talking down other sports all the time which saddens me. Is it only the protection and ring sports that can prove a dog? What about agility or dock diving? What about carting? I had to mention that because I never knew such a sport existed until just a few days ago. In the real world a carting title could be a lot more practical than an IGP title. _sigh_ I think a lot of times it comes off as a kind of snobby attitude that turns pet people off. And I'm NOT calling anyone here snobby, I'm talking about what I read in FB groups every day.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


One thing is still looking at what that breed was designed to do ... GSDs weren't created to be carters. It might be fun to do, but doesn't really show that THAT particular GSD typifies the qualities that you look for in a GSD other than basic obedience and a strong back.


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## Thecowboysgirl

If you can't afford to title a dog, can you afford an emergency c section or other possible veterinary care?

Can you afford to take back a pup that didnt work out?

I don't buy the money excuse.


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## ChickiefromTN

Thecowboysgirl said:


> If you can't afford to title a dog, can you afford an emergency c section or other possible veterinary care?
> 
> Can you afford to take back a pup that didnt work out?
> 
> I don't buy the money excuse.


I don't think lack of money ever came up. For example, I have first deposit down on a new pup right now. It's not a "cheap" pup. The sire is titled, the dam is not. I've seen video of the dam working. I know the kennel they come from. The breeder knows exactly what I am looking for in a pup and I completely trust her judgment to pick out the one that will best suit my needs. She may or may not title the dam in the future. She can afford any medical care the pups or dam may need and she will take any pup back in a heartbeat if needed. She is actually my dogs "godmomma" in case something ever happened to me and my husband because she would find the perfect home. So I'm not really sure what this particular dam not being titled has to do with $$$. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Thecowboysgirl

ChickiefromTN said:


> I agree it can be a good starting point, but then let me ask what sports titles "count?" I see sports people talking down other sports all the time which saddens me. Is it only the protection and ring sports that can prove a dog? What about agility or dock diving? What about carting? I had to mention that because I never knew such a sport existed until just a few days ago. In the real world a carting title could be a lot more practical than an IGP title. _sigh_ I think a lot of times it comes off as a kind of snobby attitude that turns pet people off. And I'm NOT calling anyone here snobby, I'm talking about what I read in FB groups every day.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I am sure that depends on who you ask. Everyone but me on here will probably tell you only bitesports count.

My dog's breeder titles in many AKC venues. Obedience, tracking, agility, nosework, (my autocorrect tried to make that housework LOL).

I base my opinions on titling my own dogs in AKC and other venues in obedience, tracking, rally, and dock diving.

And if you can't make it to a club you can train and title in all of those things I mentioned without training with anyone else. I did. 

We do a lot of WCRL rally and while it is fun, and I'm proud of my dog's work, I wouldn't really consider it a title I'd brag about if I wanted to breed. It's just too forgiving. Although when we get our next multi level championship I'll be proud, because from where we are at on up it does get harder.

CD is a great start but CDX is better.

My dog's sire was an OTCH and that is no joke. I respect the heck out of my breeder and her dog for achieving that. We'll never get there, but if my dog had a better handler than me I bet he could.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Jen84 said:


> $$$$$



This is when money came up


----------



## ChickiefromTN

Thecowboysgirl said:


> This is when money came up


Oh! I didn't even see that one 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Chip Blasiole

As I said, some people have connections and trustworthy people they can import from, see some video and know how a dog has produced and that information is more valuable than any title or titles. Again, not as true with the GSD due to the decline in the breed, IGP, and the SV. The best police dogs of other breeds are not even registered.


----------



## Jen84

double post


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## Jen84

Thecowboysgirl said:


> There are probably some breeders out there with enough lifetime experience that their word on their untitled dog would be sufficient.





Thecowboysgirl said:


> If you can't afford to title a dog, can you afford an emergency c section or other possible veterinary care?
> 
> Can you afford to take back a pup that didnt work out?
> 
> I don't buy the money excuse.


I'm saying if a breeder doesn't have the exceptions in your first quote, and they are not titling their dogs, then they are BYB who are only in it for the money. These types have NO clue how to train a dog let alone title or evaluate their dog's temperament accurately.


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## Steve Strom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I am sure that depends on who you ask. Everyone but me on here will probably tell you only bitesports count.


Not me. I agree with you. My only point is AKC obedience doesn't mean bitework or vice versa. Which ever one you do tells me what you know about and what the dogs are capable of.


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## WIBackpacker

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Everyone but me on here will probably tell you only bitesports count.


False. 

Since this isn't a single-purpose breed (ex: the working border collie), there will never be consensus on what constitutes the One True GSD. 

There's plenty of room under the gigantic umbrella of the GSD breed for different types of dogs. 

Don't care for a breeding? Don't buy one.... 

Want to prove your dog can do something? Go out and do it....


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## Chip Blasiole

There are plenty of untitled dogs by highly skilled breeders and handlers with some of the best genetics possible that are not remotely backyard breeders. “The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind.”


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## UnlimitedGSD

Breeders who don't title mostly ride on the coat tails of other dogs in the pedigree rather than the ones they are breeding.


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## Chip Blasiole

Again, this might be more of a GSD thing whose market is partly pet homes. I think breeding GSDs as pets in the sense that a total novice can raise and manage a dog has also been detrimental to the breed. The GSD was originally a herding dog, then a police and military dog, then an overly popular pet dog along with being a show dog and a sport dog of a sport that lost its value. It has happened to many if not most breeds but there are dogs out there that are seriously intense and stable but they are dwindling.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I have a question to those of you doing bite sports. Chip, Steve? Unrelated to the other discussion, just curious.

Would your dog do the stand for exam in AKC obedience?


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## Thecowboysgirl

Jen84 said:


> I'm saying if a breeder doesn't have the exceptions in your first quote, and they are not titling their dogs, then they are BYB who are only in it for the money. These types have NO clue how to train a dog let alone title or evaluate their dog's temperament accurately.


 Gotcha. Good point.


----------



## UnlimitedGSD

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have a question to those of you doing bite sports. Chip, Steve? Unrelated to the other discussion, just curious.
> 
> Would your dog do the stand for exam in AKC obedience?


I have an IPO 3 dog who has an OTCh in Canada and an AKC utility title.... Another male who is IPO 3 (we only did one leg of novice) Neither had any issue with it.


----------



## Steve Strom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have a question to those of you doing bite sports. Chip, Steve? Unrelated to the other discussion, just curious.
> 
> Would your dog do the stand for exam in AKC obedience?


Yeah. He has a limit to what he'll tolerate, but he can be gone over like that. Its not too different from some of the temperament checks they do while scanning the chip or tattoo pre-trial.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think anyone here thinks the only way to produce a good dog is through sports titles. What I am against is breeding unproven, untested dogs. The conversation about breeding untitled dogs always seems to be I don’t have a convenient way to do sports. It’s never the dogs have been proven in other ways like police work and such. It’s not that titles make a quality dog, but they are a good starting point.


People who can’t do protection sports can title in obedience. Almost everyone can get to an obedience dog club.


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## Kazel

UnlimitedGSD said:


> If you don't title (which includes the much more important element of training) - you don't really know your dogs. I had a dog, nice pedigree, passing health... dog was a sh*t show outside of my property. He would never have earned a title. But as a buyer, you'd never know if I bred him and just told you he was great.
> IMO, there is also the $$. It's relatively cheap to just x-ray a dog and then breed it. What are people paying you for as a breeder? The time and expense I put into training and trialing my dogs is what they are paying for - to ensure the quality of my dogs. People will argue that the quality doesn't change just because I train/title, but look at a pedigree full of great dogs without titles and then look at a pedigree full of backyard bred dogs and point out the difference?
> There is more to the breed than health and temperament. There is working ability, conformation, bidability, nerve, drives etc..


I know dogs with absolute trash temperaments that can and have been titled because of training or drive. A title is a good indicator of merit but not a guarantee or end all be all. I’d rather have an untitled dog from good lines that work in some capacity than a dog bred to extremes, or faults excused that I consider a no go just because they can title. For example excessive prey drive or dogs that are genetically other dog aggressive.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I think AKC is a joke. That let any dog breed as lond as it has “papers.” They do way more harm than good. A valuable trait of working line GSDs is mistrust of strangers. I could probably train my dog for the AKC stand for exam. He is being trained for downing in front of a seated decoy in a suit who will shake a can curtain and toss prey objects to get your dog to break his down. I can do off leash obedience with my dog within a small circle of club members with no concerns. The decoy can pet the dog. Come around the vehicle and the yard and the dog displays aggression instantly. What his intention is, I don’t know other than him biting a hidden sleeve in a carjacking scenario in the PDC. He is not Fluffy and he is not Cujo. I think he has a good balance. He is not dog aggressive. I just don’t take chances with dogs with genetic aggression around strangers. His reactivity is very specific and territorial and his obedience is very reliable.


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## Fodder

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think AKC is a joke. That let any dog breed as lond as it has “papers.” They do way more harm than good. A valuable trait of working line GSDs is mistrust of strangers. I could probably train my dog for the AKC stand for exam. He is being trained for downing in front of a seated decoy in a suit who will shake a can curtain and toss prey objects to get your dog to break his down. I can do off leash obedience with my dog within a small circle of club members with no concerns. The decoy can pet the dog. Come around the vehicle and the yard and the dog displays aggression instantly. What his intention is, I don’t know other than him biting a hidden sleeve in a carjacking scenario in the PDC. He is not Fluffy and he is not Cujo. I think he has a good balance. He is not dog aggressive. I just don’t take chances with dogs with genetic aggression around strangers. His reactivity is very specific and territorial and his obedience is very reliable.


is that a yes or no?


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## Bearshandler

I think there is some disingenuous information being pushed here. I’ll repeat the best working dog breeds all have selection tests. There is French ring, Belgian ring, schutzhund, and KNPV. There is also mondioring. Dutch shepherds, mals, and German shepherds all developed and maintained their working abilities through a selection test. For the people who insist that there are many great breeders breeding great dogs without titles, why haven’t you named them?


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## Jen84

"For the people who insist that there are many great breeders breeding great dogs without titles, why haven’t you named them? "

I don't know about "many great", but @carmspack and @cliffson1 are members here.


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## Steve Strom

Fodder said:


> is that a yes or no?


Does it really matter? Lol.


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## Fodder

Steve Strom said:


> Does it really matter? Lol.


to me, no. but it was a simple question...


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> "For the people who insist that there are many great breeders breeding great dogs without titles, why haven’t you named them? "
> 
> I don't know about "many great", but @carmspack and @cliffson1 are members here.


Your list of great breeders that don’t title their stock is 2? I know that at some point relatively recently( based on program age) that Carmen stopped trialing her dogs. Maybe someone who actually talks to her can ask.


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## WNGD

Jen84 said:


> What is average price of BYB dog, $1000 ?
> 
> If German Shepherd lives until at least 10 years, that is $100/year versus $250/year.
> 
> Puppies are a crap shoot and you want to put all the odds in your favor. Paying an extra $150/year (which is a couple bags of dog food) is worth it to support a reputable breeder versus a hack.


Hey I'm not arguing for a BYB, just pointing out that the cost differential means they will always exist for the many buyers that just want a pet quality buddy, whatever that means to them. Titles for many people means show ring prancers and regardless, half the dogs out there claim sire was grand Champion of the Universe and Dam's great Aunt's sister can do a cartwheel .......

Tell someone you spent $1000 on a cat and half of them will tell you to drive down any farm road in the Spring and they're free.


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## Jen84

WNGD said:


> Hey I'm not arguing for a BYB, just pointing out that the cost differential means they will always exist for the many buyers that just want a pet quality buddy, whatever that means to them. Titles for many people means show ring prancers and regardless, half the dogs out there claim sire was grand Champion of the Universe and Dam's great Aunt's sister can do a cartwheel .......
> 
> Tell someone you spent $1000 on a cat and half of them will tell you to drive down any farm road in the Spring and they're free.


Hey no worries. I wasn't trying to argue either. I was just pointing out that most newbies aren't only ignorant of dogs, they're also bad at making simple decisions.


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## onyx'girl

Carmens program is pretty well proofed and she knows what she wants in what she produces. She no longer can train/trial or even breed now so she has others she trusts that are keeping her lines going.

I know a few breeders that don't title their own dogs but breed 'titled dogs' from previous foundation or pay to have dogs titled with respect to the person training and titling to put good foundation and proof the genetics, and what is being produced is pretty nice, all around do anything asked GSD's. 
I know a breeder that is a police K9 handler, breeds without titles or health tests and the dogs are not producing good health...temperament is there but only for experienced handlers. And being rehomed because the dogs aren't a good match or have issues.
I put much of the responsibility of this breeds future on the buyer. Do your homework, buy from a good breeder that produces a foundation line of well bred dogs. 
I believe titles are important, and know that I won't suggest easily a litter from dogs that don't hold working titles.
Even then, the breeding match may not be compatible. Way too much that goes into a good breeding program besides 'titles'. Breeding really is an art.


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## Jen84

Bearshandler said:


> Your list of great breeders that don’t title their stock is 2?





Jen84 said:


> I don't know about "many great"


I listed two "great" breeders. I ,personally, don't know about "many".








Carmspack Gus G


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Carmspack Gus G




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> I listed two "great" breeders. I ,personally, don't know about "many".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carmspack Gus G
> 
> 
> Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Carmspack Gus G
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pedigreedatabase.com


Carmen has a developed a program for over 40 years, including some unbroken lines that go all the way back to the beginning of her program. She stopped titling her dogs because of physical concerns. I don’t think she matches the typical profile of a breeder not titling their dogs. My point is most of the people breeding untitled dogs are not producing great dogs. Just because a few can produce great dogs without dogs doesn’t make it the ideal way to do it. I’m familiar with dogs from Carmens program. They used to be quite common here. I don’t know that I have ever seen a dog produced by Cliff.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think AKC is a joke. That let any dog breed as lond as it has “papers.” They do way more harm than good. A valuable trait of working line GSDs is mistrust of strangers. I could probably train my dog for the AKC stand for exam. He is being trained for downing in front of a seated decoy in a suit who will shake a can curtain and toss prey objects to get your dog to break his down. I can do off leash obedience with my dog within a small circle of club members with no concerns. The decoy can pet the dog. Come around the vehicle and the yard and the dog displays aggression instantly. What his intention is, I don’t know other than him biting a hidden sleeve in a carjacking scenario in the PDC. He is not Fluffy and he is not Cujo. I think he has a good balance. He is not dog aggressive. I just don’t take chances with dogs with genetic aggression around strangers. His reactivity is very specific and territorial and his obedience is very reliable.


AKC registering purebred dogs has little to nothing to do with AKC obedience, which is what I was bringing up.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think AKC is a joke. That let any dog breed as lond as it has “papers.” They do way more harm than good. A valuable trait of working line GSDs is mistrust of strangers. I could probably train my dog for the AKC stand for exam. He is being trained for downing in front of a seated decoy in a suit who will shake a can curtain and toss prey objects to get your dog to break his down. I can do off leash obedience with my dog within a small circle of club members with no concerns. The decoy can pet the dog. Come around the vehicle and the yard and the dog displays aggression instantly. What his intention is, I don’t know other than him biting a hidden sleeve in a carjacking scenario in the PDC. He is not Fluffy and he is not Cujo. I think he has a good balance. He is not dog aggressive. I just don’t take chances with dogs with genetic aggression around strangers. His reactivity is very specific and territorial and his obedience is very reliable.


If it is such a joke your dog should be able to breeze thru novice. 

Mistrust of strangers ok...I appreciate a GSD being a GSD but I know what I like and I don't want a dog who isn't steady enough to understand that in a ring at a dog show the judge does this and he is expected to stand there and do nothing. The obedience judges' exam doesn't even include balls, so it's really not invasive or threatening.

My dog doesn't care for people coming around his truck or yard either. He puts on a good show. That's all I want him to do. He will also stop it and allow someone to enter if I tell him to.


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## Chip Blasiole

What is the value of a GSD letting a stranger walk up and touch him. The breed as a police dog was valued for mistrust of strangers.


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## Chip Blasiole

AKC philosophy, breeding requirements and temperament tests are all part of the same batch of of bad apples. There is nothing wrong with a super social dog or a dog with mistrust. The trend of breeding super social dogs is leaving the demand for police dogs wanting. I am confident I could train my dog to pass the AKC test but see no value in it.
Putting on a show is not what is needed in a police dog. Maybe a pet, which is part of the problem. What does a show ring have to do with police dogs? The demand for more aggressive less social police dogs has increased due to breeding practices that think the breed should be a golden retriever.


----------



## Jen84

Bearshandler said:


> Carmen has a developed a program for over 40 years, including some unbroken lines that go all the way back to the beginning of her program. She stopped titling her dogs because of physical concerns. I don’t think she matches the typical profile of a breeder not titling their dogs. *My point is most of the people breeding untitled dogs are not producing great dogs.* Just because a few can produce great dogs without dogs doesn’t make it the ideal way to do it. I’m familiar with dogs from Carmens program. They used to be quite common here. I don’t know that I have ever seen a dog produced by Cliff.





Bearshandler said:


> *I think there is some disingenuous information being pushed here*. I’ll repeat the best working dog breeds all have selection tests. There is French ring, Belgian ring, schutzhund, and KNPV. There is also mondioring. Dutch shepherds, mals, and German shepherds all developed and maintained their working abilities through a selection test. For the people who insist that there are many great breeders breeding great dogs without titles, why haven’t you named them?


I thought your point was "disingenuous information" is being pushed. I personally don't see it but I would encourage you or others to point it out.

I agree with your other point about "most" people breeding untitled dogs are nothing but BYB producing crap. And that breeding untitled dogs is not ideal just because a few exceptions can do it.

As far as Carmen goes, you proved one of Chip's points:



Chip Blasiole said:


> A good trainer who knows the bloodlines they are working with can tell if a dog is breed worthy without titling the dog.


----------



## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> AKC philosophy, breeding requirements and temperament tests are all part of the same batch of of bad apples. There is nothing wrong with a super social dog or a dog with mistrust. The trend of breeding super social dogs is leaving the demand for police dogs wanting. I am confident I could train my dog to pass the AKC test but see no value in it.
> Putting on a show is not what is needed in a police dog. Maybe a pet, which is part of the problem. What does a show ring have to do with police dogs? The demand for more aggressive less social police dogs has increased due to breeding practices that think the breed should be a golden retriever.


The faults of AKC for the breed in America are their aversion to protection dog training and the fact they don't allow breed clubs to place any breed specific requirements on breeding like schutzhund. They allow a very fee flowing breeding philosophy which doesn't afford breed clubs the opportunity to protect their breeds. Nothing they have done is directly responsible for what we have today however.


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> As far as Carmen goes, you proved one of Chip's points:


First off, I never said that point was wrong. Carmen is an upstanding breeder, and if you read what I said about her program, there are not many Carmens in this world. Also if you read what I said, Carmen started off titling her dogs, for over 30 years in fact. I do not believe she wants her program and her dogs being held up as the reason dogs don't need to be titled and tested before breeding.


Jen84 said:


> I thought your point was "disingenuous information" is being pushed. I personally don't see it but I would encourage you or others to point it out.





Chip Blasiole said:


> his debate is more a GSD thing than with other working breeds like Mals, Mal X's and DS's especially in Europe where females are not titled that much.


It is being implied that other comparable working breeds don't have or use selection tests.


Bearshandler said:


> Dutch shepherds, mals, and German shepherds all developed and maintained their working abilities through a selection test.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> There is a difference between minimal titles and no titles, a big one at that. The sire of Cion is an extreme dog. He is not an easy dog to train or handle. While he is a titled dog, he is not a points dog. He is not a dog you will ever see at a national competition. The fact that he is titled proves that he can be trained and controlled however. Show me a pedigree of a great working dog with no titles in, and show me a pedigree of a great working dog filled with titles. Tell me which one is more common.


There are lots of working dogs, military and LE, that have no titles. Most of the dogs with SCH titles I've worked washed out.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> There are lots of working dogs, military and LE, that have no titles. Most of the dogs with SCH titles I've worked washed out.


There are more titles than schutzhund. Most dogs that are successful in both schutzhund and personal protection these days are parallel trained. Most schutzhund training is overly specialized and to focused on the routine, in my opinion. 


Bearshandler said:


> It’s one thing if a dog has a career a police or military dog and then was used for breeding.


----------



## David Winners

UnlimitedGSD said:


> Breeders who don't title mostly ride on the coat tails of other dogs in the pedigree rather than the ones they are breeding.


Or they are breeding dogs that work on the street or in the sandbox.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> There are more titles than schutzhund. Most dogs that are successful in both schutzhund and personal protection these days are parallel trained. Most schutzhund training is overly specialized and to focused on the routine, in my opinion.


Most working GSDs have no titles at all. While I appreciate dog sports, most of them started as a test. Can the dog do the work?

A dog that is successfully working daily with a handler finding bombs, drugs, bad guys, is a proven dog. There is no routine. No predictable end to the exercise. 

Imagine the stress on a dog that has to work after a firefight. Handler stressed to the max. Search for bombs after a real world bite.

The real test is the work, not the test.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Most working GSDs have no titles at all. While I appreciate dog sports, most of them started as a test. Can the dog do the work?
> 
> A dog that is successfully working daily with a handler finding bombs, drugs, bad guys, is a proven dog. There is no routine. No predictable end to the exercise.
> 
> Imagine the stress on a dog that has to work after a firefight. Handler stressed to the max. Search for bombs after a real world bite.
> 
> The real test is the work, not the test.


I feel like you didn’t read what I said.


----------



## Jen84

Bearshandler said:


> I said, Carmen started off titling her dogs, for over 30 years in fact.


I feel like you didn't read Gus' pedigree.


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> I feel like you didn't read Gus' pedigree.


I was under the impression, based on the information missing in those entries like registration numbers, health testing, and pictures, that those entries just poorly maintained. It looks like someone couldn’t be bothered with putting the rest of it on the database, or are you implying that the information on her dogs in the database is missing because it doesn’t exist?


----------



## Jen84

Bearshandler said:


> I was under the impression, based on the information missing in those entries like registration numbers, health testing, and pictures, that those entries just poorly maintained. It looks like someone couldn’t be bothered with putting the rest of it on the database, or are you implying that the information on her dogs in the database is missing because it doesn’t exist?


I'm implying that Carmen titles some of her dogs, but she doesn't title all of them.

I am also pretty sure that Mike Diehl bred her "untitled" female to Stormfront after she passed all their tests.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Bearshandler said:


> The faults of AKC for the breed in America are their aversion to protection dog training and the fact they don't allow breed clubs to place any breed specific requirements on breeding like schutzhund. They allow a very fee flowing breeding philosophy which doesn't afford breed clubs the opportunity to protect their breeds. Nothing they have done is directly responsible for what we have today however.


They are averse to protection training of the protection breeds, don't allow any specific breed requirements on breeding, promote a philosophy that doesn't protect their breeds, but nothing they have done is directly responsible for what we have today? I don't get it. The SV is bad enough but at least they have some requirements.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Schutzhund/IGP is a terrible criterion to assess a dog's working ability. About the only sport that has value for testing working ability is KNPV and as I said, most of the better dogs only get a PH1 and barely pass, not because they are weak but because they are strong. Someone who tests KNPV dogs for purchase says his experience is that the more highly titled dogs with higher points are the weaker dogs and rarely pass his tests for a dog.


----------



## Chip Blasiole




----------



## Chip Blasiole

Back to AKC test, here is my dog just after the seated decoy next to him put a cone on his head. Clearly, he is under obedience which is different than someone walking up to him in public or being in the yard or vehicle.


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## Jenny720

I have not met any breed of dog that is a 100% trusting of any stranger it’s in a dogs dna. One pet does not mean a dog is trusting of a stranger. There is a lot more to trust even for a dog. A clear minded dog accesses the situation and is guided by the owner.
German Shepherds are one of the most versatile breeds. It’s part of the breed trait. The breed will continue survive because of this but yet it will always have some sales pitch attached because of it. Titles show the the dog can be trained in a venue of the breeders interests. Dogs that work save lives and earn pay checks, depended upon- have their work record proving their stock. A breeder who does nothing with their dogs at all are considered backyard breeders and is reflected most often in the price.


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## Chip Blasiole

That might be true but with a large GSD with a powerful bite that has been trained to fight you have a different dynamic. People at my club can pet my dog but most are probably not comfortable with it and I rarely allow it. Once a dog has been taught to bite and the dog genetically has some aggression, I don’t trust the dog as he might pick up on some very subtle body language and things could get sketchy. I have no need or desire for strangers to pet my dog. The AKC stand for exam is a pet test.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Chip Blasiole said:


> They are averse to protection training of the protection breeds, don't allow any specific breed requirements on breeding, promote a philosophy that doesn't protect their breeds, but nothing they have done is directly responsible for what we have today? I don't get it. The SV is bad enough but at least they have some requirements.


None of that has any bearing on AKC obedience, tracking, or other performance titling venues, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I was referring to the GSD as a working dog operational in police or military work. The AKC has no value in preserving the traits required for that kind of work so it has a bearing on the breed genetics they promote and preserve. The SV is not much better.


----------



## WNGD

Regarding that oft-repeated GSD-are-Golden-Retrievers, they have moved in that soft direction as more and more people ill fit to own a working breed have moved to owning them.

Does anyone else wish GSD were not as popular for the pet market as they are?
Because they're sure not for everyone, even those that already have them and German Shepherds that are bred to the breed standard in temperament etc are not suited for many families (exercise and training requirements falling short).


----------



## Jenny720

Chip Blasiole said:


> That might be true but with a large GSD with a powerful bite that has been trained to fight you have a different dynamic. People at my club can pet my dog but most are probably not comfortable with it and I rarely allow it. Once a dog has been taught to bite and the dog genetically has some aggression, I don’t trust the dog as he might pick up on some very subtle body language and things could get sketchy. I have no need or desire for strangers to pet my dog. The AKC stand for exam is a pet test.


The Akc stand for exam is a training test not a pet test. I get that might be more challenging when a dog has more suspicion which varies in all lines. I had a dog that was trained to be a police dog and failed the test only because he would not release. He was a incredible serious dog and strangers can pet him but of course he only cared if someone threw a ball or a stick. He would not hand him over his heart and trust and is a heavy trait deeply embedded in the breed. He also was my first German Shepherd. My daughter was in a club in middle school -different police officers brought different dogs to the class once a month. Not that the young students of the club were allowed to pet the k9s but they could be pet and would not be brought into a group of more then a hundred kids if they were not. There are risk in having a dog that can be trained to seriously to bite- the risk grows in regards to the level of suspicion and thresholds and that can vary there is a range. It certainly does not mean a dog with lower suspicion and higher thresholds can not be trained to have strong bites - nerve and drives are factors. I have no desire to have strangers petting my dogs and if there is no warm up period I don’t. Training to Standing still for a judge to goes over them transfers over to vet visits, unplanned circumstances In the wild world.


----------



## Steve Strom

David Winners said:


> Most working GSDs have no titles at all. While I appreciate dog sports, most of them started as a test. Can the dog do the work?
> 
> A dog that is successfully working daily with a handler finding bombs, drugs, bad guys, is a proven dog. There is no routine. No predictable end to the exercise.
> 
> Imagine the stress on a dog that has to work after a firefight. Handler stressed to the max. Search for bombs after a real world bite.
> 
> *The real test is the work, not the test.*


Exactly. That's the bottom line. That's why you can also see sport washouts work in law enforcement. There's no absolutes in any of this. Everything you do in titling or breed tests shows potential. I think that's all its ever been.


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## MineAreWorkingline

WNGD said:


> Regarding that oft-repeated GSD-are-Golden-Retrievers, they have moved in that soft direction as more and more people ill fit to own a working breed have moved to owning them.
> 
> Does anyone else wish GSD were not as popular for the pet market as they are?
> Because they're sure not for everyone, even those that already have them and German Shepherds that are bred to the breed standard in temperament etc are not suited for many families (exercise and training requirements falling short).


Agree and disagree. GSDs have been in the top three AKC most popular breeds for decades. They are the world's most popular breed. Have little doubt that most of that is rooted in the GSDs natural ability to guard and protect. 

There has been a shift though the past decade with humane organizations, shelters and rescues pushing the "it's all in how you raise and train them" mantra in order to pimp dangerous dogs into family homes. The last time I checked, about half of the human fatalities by dogs in the US were by adopted shelter and rescue dogs. But I digress. 

My point is I don't think breeding for pets is as much of a problem today as is the general populace's faith in the resources that they respect that are putting out a dangerous and fallacious message. Where pet people were once more aware of the breed's predisposition for aggression, today's pet owner seems to be totally unaware of the genetics of behavior reliant on BFAS for critical information vs Scott and Fuller. I see this as a much bigger problem.


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## Chip Blasiole

I think the heart of the problem has to do with breeding for pets, showing, IGP, and popularization of the breed. The breed was originally breed as a herding dog. I doubt in the early days of the breed, families looking for a pet dog sought out GSD herding lines. As the need for herding dogs declined, the breed was promoted as a police and military dog and breeding selection practices were tweeked. After WWII the breed was promoted on TV (Rin Tin Tin) as these super dogs capable of anything you expected. Their reputation as a protective dog also contributed to the breed's popularity. All along, the SV progressively over focused on physical traits increasingly loosing valuable working genetics and diluting the breed's working ability. Eventually the SV totally changed the pillars of the breed to black and red show dogs. In America, there was only the conformation ring. So you ended up with dogs like Lance who were not working caliber dogs. The AKC didn't help by providing "papers" showing the breed was "purebred" which means absolutely nothing other than a narrowing of the gene pool and many totally unstable dogs with genetic health issues being bred for profit because they were "German Police Dogs" who can be trained to be anything you want them to be.
Compare that to the KNPV program of breeding Dutch Mal X's. At one time, both breeds were very similar, but the Dutch were solely focused on working ability, didn't care about structure and uniform type. They had no registry and papers and out crossed to other breeds when new traits were needed to be brought in or improved. The Non FCI Dutch Mal X's are some of the best working dogs out there and now, even they have been breed more and more to be super social dogs with a loss of aggression and dominance. In the hands of the typical pet family with no ability to train such a dog and give him a challenge, those dogs are horrible pets, but great working dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Good point. It wasn't so long ago that pet people equated GSDs with police dogs.


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## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> They are averse to protection training of the protection breeds, don't allow any specific breed requirements on breeding, promote a philosophy that doesn't protect their breeds, but nothing they have done is directly responsible for what we have today? I don't get it. The SV is bad enough but at least they have some requirements.


Ultimately, the breeders breed the dogs and they mostly control who gets their hands on them. They haven’t done anything to help, and generally don’t, but they don’t view it as their position. With limited registrations, they have given breeders more tools, though ultimately it’s still up to the breeder. There are loopholes, but that will always be the case. About half the shepherds in America, and the vast majority of the rest of the world follow SV protocols. That is were most things with the breed come from.


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## Chip Blasiole

One estimate is that there are currently about 10 million GSDs alive today. What percentage do you think are great examples of the breed as a working dog?


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## Jenny720

Probably a lot more then you think.


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## Steve Strom

And here we are, through all this adversity and decimation of the breed, we still have access to the bestest breeders and everyone of us has the awesomest, best dogs ever, right?


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## WNGD

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Agree and disagree. GSDs have been in the top three AKC most popular breeds for decades. They are the world's most popular breed. Have little doubt that most of that is rooted in the GSDs natural ability to guard and protect.


I'd guess that 90% of owners like the idea that their dog could potentially "guard and protect" if the situation presented itself but don't train for that or have any idea if that's true or are actually buying with that in mind. Look even on this board where people come asking for breeder recs; they say they are looking for good family pets and maybe do some sports work or Schutz that again, 90% of them will never do. Pet owners want soft dogs to be their friends, sleep on their beds and magically walk and play with them and their kids/family perfectly. BYB are just giving them that at the expense of the breed standard. They really want more of a Golden Retriever in a GSD body and that's what they get sometimes. The problem is when they actually get more of a GSD. Just my opinion.


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## MineAreWorkingline

WNGD said:


> I'd guess that 90% of owners like the idea that their dog could potentially "guard and protect" if the situation presented itself but don't train for that or have any idea if that's true or are actually buying with that in mind. Look even on this board where people come asking for breeder recs; they say they are looking for good family pets and maybe do some sports work or Schutz that again, 90% of them will never do. Pet owners want soft dogs to be their friends, sleep on their beds and magically walk and play with them and their kids/family perfectly. BYB are just giving them that at the expense of the breed standard. They really want more of a Golden Retriever in a GSD body and that's what they get sometimes. The problem is when they actually get more of a GSD. Just my opinion.


So we as breed stewards have an obligation to set the record straight or lose the breed as we know it. Too much time wasted on advocating for health testing while turning a blind eye to temperament.


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## LuvShepherds

Chip Blasiole said:


> Back to AKC test, here is my dog just after the seated decoy next to him put a cone on his head. Clearly, he is under obedience which is different than someone walking up to him in public or being in the yard or vehicle.


There is more to AKC than basics. A breeder friend titled her dogs in Utility and Open before she retired. Those don’t count?


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## Chip Blasiole

No, they are pansy tests. WNDG has a grasp in that 90% of GSD owners will protect when the reality is about 10% will protect. We have become a politically correct soft society. The evidence of that is how many posts are about a dog’s color, he doesn’t like me, he is nipping at my children, etc. Poorly bred dogs with incompetent owners. This is a “feel good” forum and has little to do with the GSD as a working breed.


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## Chip Blasiole

If it hits the fan, you are going to want a GSD that can fight as well as being well armed. Not a GSD where you want to know how large he will be or why he doesn’t like me or why he is so fearfully reactive, etc. Like it or not, these concerns are the trash dump of a breed almost ruined by many factors.


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## Steve Strom

To be honest, PSA as preparation for civil war isn't an angle I'd considered.


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## Chip Blasiole

I don’t know if that is directed toward me but it is irrelevant. A dog’s genetics and his training are most relevant. PSA is all about controlled aggression with the vast majority of dogs in PSA are highly motivated to bite for a variety of reasons . Having a dog that is truly civil is an asset in a “civil war.” What is your point?


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## BigOzzy2018

Chip Blasiole said:


> No, they are pansy tests. WNDG has a grasp in that 90% of GSD owners will protect when the reality is about 10% will protect. We have become a politically correct soft society. The evidence of that is how many posts are about a dog’s color, he doesn’t like me, he is nipping at my children, etc. Poorly bred dogs with incompetent owners. This is a “feel good” forum and has little to do with the GSD as a working breed.


Why don’t you take your dog and do those pansy tests. Oh no wait you want a real dog that does real work in the real world. Ah, that’s right you don’t have one. 
Police dogs, military dogs, service dogs, HRD herding, and seeing eye dogs are real dogs doing real work. 
Your just like the rest of the sport dog enthusiasts (me included) who like to have fun in the real world with a nice dog.


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## BigOzzy2018

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Why don’t you take your dog and do those pansy tests. Oh no wait you want a real dog that does real work in the real world. Ah, that’s right you don’t have one.
> Police dogs, military dogs, service dogs, HRD herding, and seeing eye dogs are real dogs doing real work.
> Your just like the rest of the sport dog enthusiasts (me included) who like to have fun in the real world with a nice dog.


Oh if you don’t like this feel good forum why do you post here?


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## Thecowboysgirl

Chip Blasiole said:


> If it hits the fan, you are going to want a GSD that can fight as well as being well armed. Not a GSD where you want to know how large he will be or why he doesn’t like me or why he is so fearfully reactive, etc. Like it or not, these concerns are the trash dump of a breed almost ruined by many factors.



This has absolutely crossed my mind. That I chose the wrong time to decide on a softer dog. But you know, at the end of the day, whatever. Most dogs won't do much or anything unless they are trained. And I'm not going to train in any bite sport. So it really doesn't matter, my dog wouldn't know how to fight regardless of what line it was. 

But, we are well armed. So all he has to do is be the first alarm system, and I know he is really good at that.


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## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> No, they are pansy tests. WNDG has a grasp in that 90% of GSD owners will protect when the reality is about 10% will protect. We have become a politically correct soft society. The evidence of that is how many posts are about a dog’s color, he doesn’t like me, he is nipping at my children, etc. Poorly bred dogs with incompetent owners. This is a “feel good” forum and has little to do with the GSD as a working breed.


Politically correct and soft have nothing to do with each other. If you take a snap shot of dog owners in the America, and the world in general, the questions you see here are what comes up. People don’t think I have great dogs because of bite, drive, or any ability on the field. It’s whet they see. Beautiful dogs in “rare” colors who don’t pull me when I walk, sit when I say, aren’t afraid of the random things happening around them, and a general temperament and training that allows me to go pretty much anywhere with them and maintain control, leash or not. Your never going to be able to compare true working dogs( man work) with every day dogs people want. The vast majority of the world doesn’t want that. Just the other day, I got a comment that Cion looked like a wild dog while we were walking. He was literally just moving about, checking his surroundings and enjoying a morning walk, not out of control, pulling or anything of the sort. People don’t know what a real working dog looks like or is even remotely like on regular basis. Their ideal dog sleeps all day in the house without chewing up anything, pees in the yard, plays fetch for 10 minutes, enjoys a walk around the block, and barks at strangers walking in the yard or knocking on the door. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you have to acknowledge that not only is what you(me) want is a lot different, but there are few people like us.


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## BigOzzy2018

Bearshandler said:


> Politically correct and soft have nothing to do with each other. If you take a snap shot of dog owners in the America, and the world in general, the questions you see here are what comes up. People don’t think I have great dogs because of bite, drive, or any ability on the field. It’s whet they see. Beautiful dogs in “rare” colors who don’t pull me when I walk, sit when I say, aren’t afraid of the random things happening around them, and a general temperament and training that allows me to go pretty much anywhere with them and maintain control, leash or not. Your never going to be able to compare true working dogs( man work) with every day dogs people want. The vast majority of the world doesn’t want that. Just the other day, I got a comment that Cion looked like a wild dog while we were walking. He was literally just moving about, checking his surroundings and enjoying a morning walk, not out of control, pulling or anything of the sort. People don’t know what a real working dog looks like or is even remotely like on regular basis. Their ideal dog sleeps all day in the house without chewing up anything, pees in the yard, plays fetch for 10 minutes, enjoys a walk around the block, and barks at strangers walking in the yard or knocking on the door. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you have to acknowledge that not only is what you(me) want is a lot different, but there are few people like us.


I understand all that and have and still do experience the shock and awe from people on how well behaved my boy is when out and about in public and then see how he is on the field. I competed for those so called pansy tests and got his title, I compete in Dock diving and got his title, he’s a therapy dog as well, we were training in PSA but decoy moved no one near me, he excelled at it and we now do IGP whether you like it or not my boy loves it and excelled at that too. So just doing one sport does not make your dog the epitome of the GSD. It’s a versatile breed and should excell at many venues not just one. 

it saddens me to see the decline of what the GSD should be and most should not own one but not much can be done except Hope quality breeders can sell to more experienced homes.


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## David Winners

Everyone has their idea of the ideal GSD. Carmen Dugan, Kenny Licklider and Mike Diehl will have a different opinion than Koi Pham, Nate Harves, Stefan Schaub, which will differ from SV, AKC, which will be different than herders, service dog trainers, agility competitors, pet owners...

Knowing what you want in a dog, and being honest with yourself, is the first step. Figuring out where to get that dog is the second. Finding the trainer that can accomplish your goals is the third. Putting in the time, money and effort to get where you want to be is where the rubber meets the road.


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## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don’t know if that is directed toward me but it is irrelevant. A dog’s genetics and his training are most relevant. PSA is all about controlled aggression with the vast majority of dogs in PSA are highly motivated to bite for a variety of reasons . Having a dog that is truly civil is an asset in a “civil war.” What is your point?


The reality is if something goes down your dog is going to be of little value. I grew up with and around the criminals and degenerates people fear so much. One big mistake here is a barking dog is a good deterrent. Sure a barking dog will protect your house from a random breakin. Most of those breakins weren’t all that random. Those houses were staked out and planned. Most are based on specific things they want from you, whether you actually have them or not. The biggest targets were houses with guns. These dogs on their own were useless. Untrained dogs that could easily be bribed with food to accept them rummaging through a house with a wagging tail. Trained dogs that would simply get their head beat in with a baseball bat. These breaking were done usually with at least on armed person(gun) even if the dog did get a bite on somone else, he was probably losing his life. Most robberies on the street were the same thing. These were stick ups. Unless you’re dog was taking down multiple gunmen, at best he was watching you get robbed. I don’t care honestly if my dogs bite for real or not. I’m more than capable of handling myself with whatever random crazy person has decided to test my mettle. The reality is the better armed and prepared person is going to win a conflict, and if someone wants you, it is highly unlikely that dog is making a difference. The reality is “real” dogs have a place in real conflicts, but they are a loaded gun with a child’s brain in regular homes. Some people maybe able to manage, but I don’t think the benefits out way the liability. If it’s what you want, it’s what you want, but I don’t think you derive any benefits from it other than a false sense of security.


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## Bearshandler

People love to complain that IGP is too easy now. The two reasons given for rule changes is accessibility and to lessen dog injuries. Whether you chose to believe those are the actual reasons or not, there is truth in those two statements. The fact is sports are the primary driver of working dog homes and breedings. The market for sports is just much larger than that of real working dogs(man work.) Without those sports, the breedings of the working dogs you love will go down dramatically. Without those sports, I’m confident in saying those working dogs would dwindle to almost non existent. The thing IGP does is drive more interest in the breed. You want to know what you do to help the breed? How many people have picked up a sport or outlet for their dog from you? How many have become better trainers or handlers because of you? How many have bought working dogs because of you? How many are inspired to love the breed because of you? Are you someone who complains online and constantly belittles? Or are you someone who goes out and makes a difference in the real world?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> The reality is if something goes down your dog is going to be of little value. I grew up with and around the criminals and degenerates people fear so much. One big mistake here is a barking dog is a good deterrent. Sure a barking dog will protect your house from a random breakin. Most of those breakins weren’t all that random. Those houses were staked out and planned. Most are based on specific things they want from you, whether you actually have them or not. The biggest targets were houses with guns. These dogs on their own were useless. Untrained dogs that could easily be bribed with food to accept them rummaging through a house with a wagging tail. Trained dogs that would simply get their head beat in with a baseball bat. These breaking were done usually with at least on armed person(gun) even if the dog did get a bite on somone else, he was probably losing his life. Most robberies on the street were the same thing. These were stick ups. Unless you’re dog was taking down multiple gunmen, at best he was watching you get robbed. I don’t care honestly if my dogs bite for real or not. I’m more than capable of handling myself with whatever random crazy person has decided to test my mettle. The reality is the better armed and prepared person is going to win a conflict, and if someone wants you, it is highly unlikely that dog is making a difference. The reality is “real” dogs have a place in real conflicts, but they are a loaded gun with a child’s brain in regular homes. Some people maybe able to manage, but I don’t think the benefits out way the liability. If it’s what you want, it’s what you want, but I don’t think you derive any benefits from it other than a false sense of security.


Agree and disagree, but I have multiple dogs for good reason. Regardless, good luck beating down multiples and good luck shooting them all. Gonna bet LE will be here before the last dog falls.


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## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> The reality is if something goes down your dog is going to be of little value. I grew up with and around the criminals and degenerates people fear so much. One big mistake here is a barking dog is a good deterrent. Sure a barking dog will protect your house from a random breakin. Most of those breakins weren’t all that random. Those houses were staked out and planned. Most are based on specific things they want from you, whether you actually have them or not. The biggest targets were houses with guns. These dogs on their own were useless. Untrained dogs that could easily be bribed with food to accept them rummaging through a house with a wagging tail. Trained dogs that would simply get their head beat in with a baseball bat. These breaking were done usually with at least on armed person(gun) even if the dog did get a bite on somone else, he was probably losing his life. Most robberies on the street were the same thing. These were stick ups. Unless you’re dog was taking down multiple gunmen, at best he was watching you get robbed. I don’t care honestly if my dogs bite for real or not. I’m more than capable of handling myself with whatever random crazy person has decided to test my mettle. The reality is the better armed and prepared person is going to win a conflict, and if someone wants you, it is highly unlikely that dog is making a difference. The reality is “real” dogs have a place in real conflicts, but they are a loaded gun with a child’s brain in regular homes. Some people maybe able to manage, but I don’t think the benefits out way the liability. If it’s what you want, it’s what you want, but I don’t think you derive any benefits from it other than a false sense of security.


Tell that to the soldiers, marines, airmen, police and other government agencies that utilize thousands of dogs everyday. 

Have you seen war? Were you a handler in the middle of things going down? 

Every advantage is just that.


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## ChickiefromTN

David Winners said:


> Every advantage is just that.


I was contemplating a similar response, but this pretty much summed up what I was going to say.


Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> People love to complain that IGP is too easy now. The two reasons given for rule changes is accessibility and to lessen dog injuries. Whether you chose to believe those are the actual reasons or not, there is truth in those two statements. The fact is sports are the primary driver of working dog homes and breedings. The market for sports is just much larger than that of real working dogs(man work.) Without those sports, the breedings of the working dogs you love will go down dramatically. Without those sports, I’m confident in saying those working dogs would dwindle to almost non existent. The thing IGP does is drive more interest in the breed. You want to know what you do to help the breed? How many people have picked up a sport or outlet for their dog from you? How many have become better trainers or handlers because of you? How many have bought working dogs because of you? How many are inspired to love the breed because of you? Are you someone who complains online and constantly belittles? Or are you someone who goes out and makes a difference in the real world?


Real working dogs and most sport dogs come from different places. The market will still be there for real working dogs regardless of where SCH, IPO, IGP, PSA fall. Uncle Sam and law enforcement pay top dollar for top tier dogs.


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## Jen84

David Winners said:


> Real working dogs and most sport dogs come from different places. The market will still be there for real working dogs regardless of where SCH, IPO, IGP, PSA fall. Uncle Sam and law enforcement pay top dollar for top tier dogs.


Out of curiosity, roughly what percentage of these dogs are German Shepherds ?


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## David Winners

Jen84 said:


> Out of curiosity, roughly what percentage of these dogs are German Shepherds ?


20% if I had to guess. The kernels I worked in had up to 600 dogs in one location. They turned over a hundred dogs a month to US military, law enforcement, and other governments.


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## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Tell that to the soldiers, marines, airmen, police and other government agencies that utilize thousands of dogs everyday.
> 
> Have you seen war? Were you a handler in the middle of things going down?
> 
> Every advantage is just that.


I’m not nor have I ever been a handler in the middle of a war. The harassment of ships in the gulf is far less threatening than troops in the field. I don’t believe anyone we are fighting over there has the capabilities to sink a Carrier. We do not live on a battlefield however. Most of the people here are not handling dogs for police work or living in a situation where their day to day lives depend on their dog. They are not knowingly walking into situations where their lives are in danger. While I don’t doubt what you have seen happen, I also speak from experiences. When things have gone down with me, the calibers were smaller and the shooters worse, but the results are just as real. I’ve seen people I cared about die just like you. Those are stories we swap over a drinks , not the internet.


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## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> I’m not nor have I ever been a handler in the middle of a war. The harassment of ships in the gulf is far less threatening than troops in the field. I don’t believe anyone we are fighting over there has the capabilities to sink a Carrier. We do not live on a battlefield however. Most of the people here are not handling dogs for police work or living in a situation where their day to day lives depend on their dog. They are not knowingly walking into situations where their lives are in danger. While I don’t doubt what you have seen happen, I also speak from experiences. When things have gone down with me, the calibers were smaller and the shooters worse, but the results are just as real. I’ve seen people I cared about die just like you. Those are stories we swap over a drinks , not the internet.


I appreciate that more than you know. 

All else aside, I'll have a dog with me, regardless.


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## tim_s_adams

Me too David! Thank both of you guys for your service!!!

Speaking more about "ideal" dogs, my personal perspective is that mine's the best! End of story LOL!!!


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## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> Consider that some breed for police dogs and are not at all involved in titling their stock or minimally so. Actually, some of the better stud dogs are extreme and would not likely be able to be titled, depending on the sport. Such dogs will produce some dogs very similar to them that are not good sport candidates, produce some that are very good sport candidates, and some duds. IMO, a problem in IGP is people breeding top level podium dogs to each other due to their reputation as a top sport dog, but those top dogs are typically not the strongest dogs. A lot has to do with training, how the dog matches up to the handler's training program, and some are just not serious dogs but have great obedience, tracking and look great on a sleeve with huge grips but no real pressure applied in IGP.


Chip, hold on to your hat, but I have to say I agree with you on this. ( except for IGP, and that's because I don't do that myself and can't speak to it ).


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## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Everyone has their idea of the ideal GSD. Carmen Dugan, Kenny Licklider and Mike Diehl will have a different opinion than Koi Pham, Nate Harves, Stefan Schaub, which will differ from SV, AKC, which will be different than herders, service dog trainers, agility competitors, pet owners...
> 
> Knowing what you want in a dog, and being honest with yourself, is the first step. Figuring out where to get that dog is the second. Finding the trainer that can accomplish your goals is the third. Putting in the time, money and effort to get where you want to be is where the rubber meets the road.


I have a bit of a skewed and maybe wrong perspective. I spent fully half of my years on this earth with a dog for protection, warning, comfort and companionship. No humans involved.
I started doing patrol work before we had access to radios, cellphones, vests or weapons. I had a dog. That's all. I worked in a cesspool, they sent me to places they knew were dangerous. With a roll of quarters in case I needed to use a payphone. I really never worried about a title, or for that matter a pedigree. I needed a partner who would not cut and run when crap got real. When I got stabbed I dropped the leash. When I got my head split open my dog untied herself to get to me. When I got jumped in the parking lot the dog busted through the rear window in the truck. 
My dogs have never let me down. Even this little genetic nightmare proved she would bite if we were in trouble.
So when I look for a pet, I look for that very real ability to get in the game. I don't like bite sports, and I cannot imagine that most of the dogs I've worked would do well in them. Although I think Billy's new owner did try. 
I'm really cool with all the challenge a dog wants to throw at me, we will figure it out. But I don't do it for a trophy, or bragging rights and I won't do it for spectator amusement. 
I look for titles when I have nothing else to compare, but much beyond that I want to see the dogs, talk to the breeder and look at the history. If someone could show me a pedigree of real deal working dogs I would be totally cool with that. I could not care less about kennel clubs, breed clubs or anything of the sort. 
And I am a pet home.


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## LuvShepherds

Whether people like it or not, there is a wide spectrum of owners, and it’s no one’s business whst someone else does or doesn’t do with their dogs. I was just asked for a breeder recommendation from someone who plans to keep the puppy in a yard with no training and no activity. I refused to give a recommendation, but I did not criticize or tell them not to get a puppy, even though that was my opinion. They did eventually find a breeder who would sell them a puppy.

My friend who breeds and titles her dogs in Open and Utility is just as proud of her lines and accomplishments as someone who does PSA. Just as someone else with Agility titles or hunting titles is proud of their dogs and what they have done. I agree with whoever said 90% of owners don’t do what they planned to do or said they planned to do when they got their dogs. but that isn’t any of our business. It’s theirs. If someone is selling a dog as titled, that is different, but many people are happy with agility or AKC titles. It’s all about what they plan to do with their dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> Whether people like it or not, there is a wide spectrum of owners, and it’s no one’s business whst someone else does or doesn’t do with their dogs. I was just asked for a breeder recommendation from someone who plans to keep the puppy in a yard with no training and no activity. I refused to give a recommendation, but I did not criticize or tell them not to get a puppy, even though that was my opinion. They did eventually find a breeder who would sell them a puppy.
> 
> My friend who breeds and titles her dogs in Open and Utility is just as proud of her lines and accomplishments as someone who does PSA. Just as someone else with Agility titles or hunting titles is proud of their dogs and what they have done. I agree with whoever said 90% of owners don’t do what they planned to do or said they planned to do when they got their dogs. but that isn’t any of our business. It’s theirs. If someone is selling a dog as titled, that is different, but many people are happy with agility or AKC titles. It’s all about what they plan to do with their dogs.


It's our business when the breed as we know it ceases to exist. If breeders of all breeds don't breed to the standard, there will be nothing left but a variety of pariah dogs adapted to particular environments. There will be no breeds left from which to choose. Pariah dogs are a natural default for when selective breeding choices are no longer practiced. Think about it, many conformational and behavioral traits are recessives and that is one of the reasons inbreeding is frequently used, to set traits so that a dog has no other traits to pass on. Start breeding haphazardly and you stand to lose many traits forever barring a mutation.


----------



## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It's our business when the breed as we know it ceases to exist. If breeders of all breeds don't breed to the standard, there will be nothing left but a variety of pariah dogs adapted to particular environments. There will be no breeds left from which to choose. Pariah dogs are a natural default for when selective breeding choices are no longer practiced. Think about it, many conformational and behavioral traits are recessives and that is one of the reasons inbreeding is frequently used, to set traits so that a dog has no other traits to pass on. Start breeding haphazardly and you stand to lose many traits forever barring a mutation.


It’s not haphazard just because breeders use different titles. My first purebred had a Sch 3 father and an AKC mother, but was from Vom Kirschental. Ideally, the parents should have had herding titles. So why does one type of title mean a dog Is closer to standard than another?

I was taking issues with criticizing dog owners in a thread about titles.


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## tim_s_adams

Sabis mom said:


> I have a bit of a skewed and maybe wrong perspective. I spent fully half of my years on this earth with a dog for protection, warning, comfort and companionship. No humans involved.
> I started doing patrol work before we had access to radios, cellphones, vests or weapons. I had a dog. That's all. I worked in a cesspool, they sent me to places they knew were dangerous. With a roll of quarters in case I needed to use a payphone. I really never worried about a title, or for that matter a pedigree. I needed a partner who would not cut and run when crap got real. When I got stabbed I dropped the leash. When I got my head split open my dog untied herself to get to me. When I got jumped in the parking lot the dog busted through the rear window in the truck.
> My dogs have never let me down. Even this little genetic nightmare proved she would bite if we were in trouble.
> So when I look for a pet, I look for that very real ability to get in the game. I don't like bite sports, and I cannot imagine that most of the dogs I've worked would do well in them. Although I think Billy's new owner did try.
> I'm really cool with all the challenge a dog wants to throw at me, we will figure it out. But I don't do it for a trophy, or bragging rights and I won't do it for spectator amusement.
> I look for titles when I have nothing else to compare, but much beyond that I want to see the dogs, talk to the breeder and look at the history. If someone could show me a pedigree of real deal working dogs I would be totally cool with that. I could not care less about kennel clubs, breed clubs or anything of the sort.
> And I am a pet home.


Now that is intense! And "real"! Thanks for sharing... Well said!!! I'm another "pet" home, who feels slighted a bit by folks training for thos or that title!

My dog proves herself in real world situations onna daily basis. She's impeccable, and given a buffer of time to train, I'd gladly put her in an straight up competition with ANY of your dogs!

Bring it, let's schedule it! I'm game, and so is my dog!

Final word, talk is cheap! Bring it!!!


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## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> All else aside, I'll have a dog with me, regardless.


True indeed. I left with a friend for three months while I did some training in New Hampshire. The night I dropped him off, I felt the strongest bout of loneliness I ever had. My home has never felt so empty


tim_s_adams said:


> Now that is intense! And "real"! Thanks for sharing... Well said!!! I'm another "pet" home, who feels slighted a bit by folks training for thos or that title!
> 
> My dog proves herself in real world situations onna daily basis. She's impeccable, and given a buffer of time to train, I'd gladly put her in an straight up competition with ANY of your dogs!
> 
> Bring it, let's schedule it! I'm game, and so is my dog!
> 
> Final word, talk is cheap! Bring it!!!


You know what? I’ll take you up on that offer. Not only do I like competing, I need to teach fun stuff every once in while. Choose a trick or task neither of our dogs do now, a timeline, and we’ll come back with some video of our training results. I’ll use Bear. You should make it another thread


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## tim_s_adams

My dog can learn anything, so you pick, I'm game. Though I warn you we may have to go back and forth for a bit because she does already know several.

What is choice #1?


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> It’s not haphazard just because breeders use different titles. My first purebred had a Sch 3 father and an AKC mother, but was from Vom Kirschental. Ideally, the parents should have had herding titles. So why does one type of title mean a dog Is closer to standard than another?
> 
> I was taking issues with criticizing dog owners in a thread about titles.


I don't think people realize how short lived sheep herding played a leading role in this breed, nor do they realize how steeply entrenched bitework is in prey drive. 

Certain titles mean more because of the nature of the beast. If we esteemed one title as much as the other, then at what point do we really deviate from the breed standard? I have a friend that trains gundogs that trained his Mal to point birds. My friend is exceptionally talented in that venue and I have little doubt if he wanted to, he could title ...let's say...prove his Mal is a darned good bird dog? I have seen Poodles and Goldens titled in bitework... so tell me again.. just what is it that a title in bitework is supposed to mean? 

Nobody is saying, at least I am not, that you should not go out and have fun with your dogs or that you shouldn't be proud of any accomplishments in alternative venues... but Chip is right.. we can't judge the workability of a breed based on most titles available today, nor should they necessarily be used as proof of anything.


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## tim_s_adams

tim_s_adams said:


> My dog can learn anything, so you pick, I'm game. Though I warn you we may have to go back and forth for a bit because she does already know several.
> 
> What is choice #1?


Then we'll start a new thread...


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## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> I would be totally cool with that. I could not care less about kennel clubs, breed clubs or anything of the sort.
> And I am a pet home.


At the end of the day, I don’t care for politics and things of that nature. I care about having a dog I enjoy living with and working with.Whether that’s a dog from Thomas Lapp or one I picked up off the street.


Sabis mom said:


> But I don't do it for a trophy, or bragging rights and I won't do it for spectator amusement.


None of those drive me to it either. Ultimately, it’s the process more than the end result. Not that I think this was directed at me.


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## Bearshandler

tim_s_adams said:


> Then we'll start a new thread...


We’ll have someone else choose.


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## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> True indeed. I left with a friend for three months while I did some training in New Hampshire. The night I dropped him off, I felt the strongest bout of loneliness I ever had. My home has never felt so empty
> 
> You know what? I’ll take you up on that offer. Not only do I like competing, I need to teach fun stuff every once in while. Choose a trick or task neither of our dogs do now, a timeline, and we’ll come back with some video of our training results. I’ll use Bear. You should make it another thread


Shadow not only opens her crate door to go in, but has recently taught herself to close it once she is in. Not latched at all, she just uses her paw to pull it open and then closes it. Who else has a dog that puts itself away?


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## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow not only opens her crate door to go in, but has recently taught herself to close it once she is in. Not latched at all, she just uses her paw to pull it open and then closes it. Who else has a dog that puts itself away?


They will occasionally put themselves away, but they don’t close the door. Bear nudges it open.


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## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> They will occasionally put themselves away, but they don’t close the door. Bear nudges it open.


I will try and get a video of her doing it and you can show Bear.


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## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> I will try and get a video of her doing it and you can show Bear.


He is quite the imitator. 🤣🤣 I should have recorded him jumping to get his ball out a tree earlier.


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## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't think people realize how short lived sheep herding played a leading role in this breed, nor do they realize how steeply entrenched bitework is in prey drive.
> 
> Certain titles mean more because of the nature of the beast. If we esteemed one title as much as the other, then at what point do we really deviate from the breed standard? I have a friend that trains gundogs that trained his Mal to point birds. My friend is exceptionally talented in that venue and I have little doubt if he wanted to, he could title ...let's say...prove his Mal is a darned good bird dog? I have seen Poodles and Goldens titled in bitework... so tell me again.. just what is it that a title in bitework is supposed to mean?
> 
> Nobody is saying, at least I am not, that you should not go out and have fun with your dogs or that you shouldn't be proud of any accomplishments in alternative venues... but Chip is right.. we can't judge the workability of a breed based on most titles available today, nor should they necessarily be used as proof of anything.


To this I gotta say bull hockey! The titles might not be a be all end all, but they certainly show bidability, impulse control, etc.! They indicate a lot about the dog and its heritage!

Is it everything? No! But it's a heck of a lot better than nothing IMHO!

So maybe I'm just confused about what you're saying. Are you saying that titles mean nothing, or that titles aren't everything. Because the former I disagree with, while the latter is my mantra!

My dog is PERFECT! She has a CGC only, and is not likely to ever be titled in any other arena. That being said, I'd gladly put her up against any dog, for obedience tricks, or any other venue other than bite sports-where she'd have a total deficit, having never been schooled, trained, or worked in that venue!

Anyway, challenge me, we're good!!!


Bearshandler said:


> We’ll have someone else choose.


Right on! I just thought you and I talking privately might help. But if you'd rather a 3rd party mediate, that works too!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Bull hockey? When you are self admittedly confused as to what I am saying? Whatever you are having tonight, let me know, I'll have one too... smile!


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## David Winners

A title tells you something about the dog. It tells you something about the trainer and handler. Imo, it's not definitive. You need to see the dog work to get a better picture.


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## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> I have a bit of a skewed and maybe wrong perspective. I spent fully half of my years on this earth with a dog for protection, warning, comfort and companionship. No humans involved.
> I started doing patrol work before we had access to radios, cellphones, vests or weapons. I had a dog. That's all. I worked in a cesspool, they sent me to places they knew were dangerous. With a roll of quarters in case I needed to use a payphone. I really never worried about a title, or for that matter a pedigree. I needed a partner who would not cut and run when crap got real. When I got stabbed I dropped the leash. When I got my head split open my dog untied herself to get to me. When I got jumped in the parking lot the dog busted through the rear window in the truck.
> My dogs have never let me down. Even this little genetic nightmare proved she would bite if we were in trouble.
> So when I look for a pet, I look for that very real ability to get in the game. I don't like bite sports, and I cannot imagine that most of the dogs I've worked would do well in them. Although I think Billy's new owner did try.
> I'm really cool with all the challenge a dog wants to throw at me, we will figure it out. But I don't do it for a trophy, or bragging rights and I won't do it for spectator amusement.
> I look for titles when I have nothing else to compare, but much beyond that I want to see the dogs, talk to the breeder and look at the history. If someone could show me a pedigree of real deal working dogs I would be totally cool with that. I could not care less about kennel clubs, breed clubs or anything of the sort.
> And I am a pet home.


You certainly aren't a pet home, at least not by my definition.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow not only opens her crate door to go in, but has recently taught herself to close it once she is in. Not latched at all, she just uses her paw to pull it open and then closes it. Who else has a dog that puts itself away?


I did, I did! I did it for trick dog titles with my old girl. Gave her some joy in her old age


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## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> You certainly aren't a pet home, at least not by my definition.


But my dog is just a pet. I don't do much other then take her with me. I have no real need to.
I barely teach my dogs the basics, lol. I encourage idiocy in all its forms. We are a household of dogs on furniture, zoomies and couch vaulting. I randomly give commands and often get ignored. I just don't much care. Basically they serve as furry, freeloading room mates and I am cool with that. 
I am really shocked at the number of people on this forum that are dismissive of the herding genetics. It is those traits that provide the foundation for the all purpose, ultra trainable dog that we all love. From that stem the loyalty, intelligence and protective nature. Even the searching and tracking come from there.
It is no accident that the herders as a group have proven to be the most versatile of all our furry friends.


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## WNGD

Sabis mom said:


> I started doing patrol work before we had access to radios, cellphones, vests or weapons. I had a dog. That's all. I worked in a cesspool, they sent me to places they knew were dangerous. With a roll of quarters in case I needed to use a payphone.


I think you totally misunderstood what the roll of quarters was for ....


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## WNGD

LuvShepherds said:


> Whether people like it or not, there is a wide spectrum of owners, and it’s no one’s business whst someone else does or doesn’t do with their dogs. I was just asked for a breeder recommendation from someone who plans to keep the puppy in a yard with no training and no activity. I refused to give a recommendation, but I did not criticize or tell them not to get a puppy, even though that was my opinion. They did eventually find a breeder who would sell them a puppy.


Respectfully disagree.

I tactfully would help them understand that perhaps a GSD is not the breed for them, to do more homework; for the good of their family and the dog. It's just another viewpoint for them to consider and the result is either a better educated owner or a happier family situation that at least entered eyes wide open.

If you think enough about it to not give a recommendation, why not offer a respectful rationale since they thought enough of you to ask?


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## Jenny720

Sabis mom I deleted what I typed because I could not say it better. The herding genetics are what makes the breed who they are. It has been so deeply embedded it can not be erased. Without these traits it is a different breed all together. It truly makes them a stand out one of a kind dog. There is no end to the loyalty and what they would do for you- it’s not a myth.


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## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't think people realize how short lived sheep herding played a leading role in this breed, nor do they realize how steeply entrenched bitework is in prey drive.
> 
> Certain titles mean more because of the nature of the beast. If we esteemed one title as much as the other, then at what point do we really deviate from the breed standard? I have a friend that trains gundogs that trained his Mal to point birds. My friend is exceptionally talented in that venue and I have little doubt if he wanted to, he could title ...let's say...prove his Mal is a darned good bird dog? I have seen Poodles and Goldens titled in bitework... so tell me again.. just what is it that a title in bitework is supposed to mean?
> 
> Nobody is saying, at least I am not, that you should not go out and have fun with your dogs or that you shouldn't be proud of any accomplishments in alternative venues... but Chip is right.. we can't judge the workability of a breed based on most titles available today, nor should they necessarily be used as proof of anything.


I agree with that point, about using titles today to judge workability but disagree about dropping herding as a standard. Except the breed is what it has become, whether we like it or not. If there are no longer any titles that judge the breed effectively, then it will not be judged correctly. How many threads do we have here about herding roots and behaviors grounded in herding that cause problems for the average newbie owner with a puppy that bites or chases or won’t listen or barks too much? Aren’t those behaviors all grounded in herding? The only reason herding was short lived is that most people don’t have sheep or cattle. We did not abandon herding, it abandoned our dogs, because culturally and economically, it made no sense for most people to live on ranches and own livestock. So, if that is the case, why not breed out herding abilities and move our dogs to the working dog group? The fact is, most herding dogs never see a sheep or a cow in their lives, but other breeds don’t use rigorous titling as a guidelines for breeding? Why not? What standards were used to breed your ACD or your Mals? Well, maybe the Mals have working titles. The reason we don’t want to give up on herding is that those are the traits we also like in our dogs. Technically, can’t we say that any German Shepherd not used for herding is not fulfilling its purpose in being bred? How many people here have ever worked their dogs for a career? Very few. More title their dogs in sports, but the vast majority of the thousands of members who have come through this forum are pet owners who never do anything with their dog except fun activities, if that.


----------



## LuvShepherds

WNGD said:


> Respectfully disagree.
> 
> I tactfully would help them understand that perhaps a GSD is not the breed for them, to do more homework; for the good of their family and the dog. It's just another viewpoint for them to consider and the result is either a better educated owner or a happier family situation that at least entered eyes wide open.
> 
> If you think enough about it to not give a recommendation, why not offer a respectful rationale since they thought enough of you to ask?


You have no idea. The most recent interaction was the end of years of discussion, not the beginning. It’s become a head-desk or car into a brick wall kind of moment. She has had German Shepherds for over 20 years. I have known her online in a non-dog venue for a long time. The first one did alright in her yard, so she got a second one from a BYB out of state. Before she did, I researched breeders for her, found several who were within a day’s drive for her and prioritized which ones were the best match. I had no idea then she was going to keep the dog confined outdoors and alone with one other dog all day and night. Instead, she was out of state, found a puppy while she was there for $400 and brought it home. I won’t post details on the open forum but feel free to PM me if you want the longer version. 

Four years ago, when the dog was middle aged, it began attacking their other dog that was a mix I can’t mention, except it had some Lab. At that point, she refused to do anything to fix the behavior and limited the dog to half the yard so the other dog could have room to be alone. The dog died before it hit old age, I’m sure due to lack of exercise or attention. I invited her to a small group of friends who have as much as 30 years or more of GSD experience each and they all told her the same thing. Bring your dogs indoors, exercise and train them, give them a reason to live beyond tormenting each other. She got angry and quit the group, which was for the best because they kicked her out at the same time. They told her she was abusing her dogs, So, when she told me she found a puppy from the same BYB as her dog who just died, I decided I was not ready for another fight that would go nowhere. It’s very sad, but I can’t fix everyone and I don’t want to try,


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## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> But my dog is just a pet. I don't do much other then take her with me. I have no real need to.
> I barely teach my dogs the basics, lol. I encourage idiocy in all its forms. We are a household of dogs on furniture, zoomies and couch vaulting. I randomly give commands and often get ignored. I just don't much care. Basically they serve as furry, freeloading room mates and I am cool with that.
> I am really shocked at the number of people on this forum that are dismissive of the herding genetics. It is those traits that provide the foundation for the all purpose, ultra trainable dog that we all love. From that stem the loyalty, intelligence and protective nature. Even the searching and tracking come from there.
> It is no accident that the herders as a group have proven to be the most versatile of all our furry friends.


Where you fall outside my definition of pet home is your experience level and understanding of behavior and motivation. 

Fama was a fantastic pet, and spent many years in that role. I wouldn't consider my home a typical pet home because of my experience and willingness to do what it takes to provide a happy life for my dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> So, I agree with that point, about using titles today to judge workability but disagree about dropping herding as a standard. Except the breed is what it has become, whether we like it or not. If there are no longer any titles that judge the breed effectively, then it will not be judged correctly. How many threads do we have here about herding roots and behaviors grounded in herding that cause problems for the average newbie owner with a puppy that bites or chases or won’t listen or barks too much? Aren’t those behaviors all grounded in herding? The only reason herding was short lived is that most people don’t have sheep or cattle. We did not abandon herding, it abandoned our dogs, because culturally and economically, it made no sense for most people to live on ranches and own livestock. So, if that is the case, why not breed out herding abilities and move our dogs to the working dog group? The fact is, most herding dogs never see a sheep or a cow in their lives, but other breeds don’t use rigorous titling as a guidelines for breeding? Why not? What standards were used to breed your ACD or your Mals? Well, maybe the Mals have working titles. The reason we don’t want to give up on herding is that those are the traits we also like in our dogs. Technically, can’t we say that any German Shepherd not used for herding is not fulfilling its purpose in being bred? How many people here have ever worked their dogs for a career? Very few. More title their dogs in sports, but the vast majority of the thousands of members who have come through this forum are pet onwers who never do anything with their dog except fun activities, if that.


Hmmm.. not so sure of what I have said that makes you think that I don't support herding. I do, very much. What I don't support is this chaotic prey drive seen in so many sport dogs of today. I want to see mega attraction to the sheep...and that is a large part of what is missing and IMO... one of the breed's greatest downfalls. But let me repeat... bitework IS entrenched in herding/prey drive. It's no accident that GSDs, Mals, Dutchies, and other herding breeds have dominated the bitework venue for decades.

But to clarify further... what do titles tell us about appropriate prey drive and attraction to sheep and livestock? Unless it is a herding type venue.. I would venture to say very little...


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## Jax08

Just my opinion....trialing to earn a title is just my worst training day. It's the day I find the holes that I need to fix to move on. But what trialing really shows is how a dog handles stress. Can you drop the dog in a strange place and have them perform like they do on your home field? Or does the dog fall apart? Did the dog fall apart because of the handler nerves (showing the dog is to handler sensitive)? Lack of preparation? Or just genetics. Or did the dog handle it with ease? 

I don't feel the titles are important in themselves. They just show you have trained the dog. What is important is what you find out about the dog in the training and that the person, should they choose to breed the dog, is honest about what they are seeing vs just pushing a dog thru the titles to say they are breed worthy. 

I see some back and forth on herding. I haven't made it to one of Ulf's trials yet (though I'm just a couple hours away) but it takes a tremendous about of nerve strength to move 200 sheep. I don't feel that a herding title can be compared to an IGP title. In IGP, the bites are in prey and the dogs have been bred with more and more prey. I would assume that is not desirable in herding and that a higher pack drive would be desired. Hoping next year there are no conflicts so I can go watch.


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## LuvShepherds

Jax08 said:


> Just my opinion....trialing to earn a title is just my worst training day. It's the day I find the holes that I need to fix to move on. But what trialing really shows is how a dog handles stress. Can you drop the dog in a strange place and have them perform like they do on your home field? Or does the dog fall apart? Did the dog fall apart because of the handler nerves (showing the dog is to handler sensitive)? Lack of preparation? Or just genetics. Or did the dog handle it with ease?
> 
> I don't feel the titles are important in themselves. They just show you have trained the dog. *What is important is what you find out about the dog in the training and that the person, should they choose to breed the dog, is honest about what they are seeing vs just pushing a dog thru the titles to say they are breed worthy. *
> 
> I see some back and forth on herding. I haven't made it to one of Ulf's trials yet (though I'm just a couple hours away) but it takes a tremendous about of nerve strength to move 200 sheep. I don't feel that a herding title can be compared to an IGP title. In IGP, the bites are in prey and the dogs have been bred with more and more prey. I would assume that is not desirable in herding and that a higher pack drive would be desired. Hoping next year there are no conflicts so I can go watch.


This, in bold text. Isn’t that what we all look for in a breeder? What have they seen in the dog, do they understand what they’ve seen and are they going to get puppies out of a litter that have the same traits? We put a lot of trust into people we don’t know, other than a few conversations or emails or some recommendations on a message board. Some are lucky enough to meet a breeder at a venue and watch their dogs work, but that is rare.


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## Sabis mom

In summation, I don't believe that titles are important for working dogs. I think that the average pet home will never gain access to true working stock, so titles become important. They prove that a breeder did something. That the dog handled stress and was trainable. They prove that outside a comfort zone the dog stayed focused on the task at hand and they prove that the breeder invested something into proving a dog. 
Ideally, I like to see other activities then bite work in addition. Something that shows a dog can focus on other then chase/bite.


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## Jax08

@LuvShepherds - It's hard not to be kennel blind. Really hard. And where to draw your line on your standards. I see a LOT of hypocrisy on this very board from breeders.


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## LuvShepherds

Jax08 said:


> @LuvShepherds - It's hard not to be kennel blind. Really hard. And where to draw your line on your standards. I see a LOT of hypocrisy on this very board from breeders.


And that is how I got the most amazing dog who I adore and who forced me to become a better handler, but who could not have been more wrong for my original plans. The breeder insisted he would be perfect for my plans as he was medium drive and social. Compared to her super intense highest drive dogs, maybe, but he is high drive. He is social to a point but also perhaps the most protective dog I’ve ever owned, as well. He is completely unsuited for my former goals.


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## Jax08

medium / high is often subjective. What's perfect for me that I consider medium might be to high for others. That's why I never advise people to say "medium".


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## BigOzzy2018

Sabis mom said:


> But my dog is just a pet. I don't do much other then take her with me. I have no real need to.
> I barely teach my dogs the basics, lol. I encourage idiocy in all its forms. We are a household of dogs on furniture, zoomies and couch vaulting. I randomly give commands and often get ignored. I just don't much care. Basically they serve as furry, freeloading room mates and I am cool with that.
> I am really shocked at the number of people on this forum that are dismissive of the herding genetics. It is those traits that provide the foundation for the all purpose, ultra trainable dog that we all love. From that stem the loyalty, intelligence and protective nature. Even the searching and tracking come from there.
> It is no accident that the herders as a group have proven to be the most versatile of all our furry friends.


People want a lab or golden type in a GSD body. Breeders or so called breeders are washing out the true temperament health prey and energy in the GSD so they can accommodate the need for people who want low drive Pet me pet me couch potato’s. 
it sickens me to see more and more of this. 
ultimately it’s is the BYB’s and even quality breeders who sell puppies to the unknown inexperienced people first time dog owners. 
how many posts on here about issues with puppies in every aspect. I can’t even respond to those anymore since I will be banned for going off on people who have no business getting a GSD let alone a puppy.


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## Chip Blasiole

LuvShepherds said:


> I agree with that point, about using titles today to judge workability but disagree about dropping herding as a standard. Except the breed is what it has become, whether we like it or not. If there are no longer any titles that judge the breed effectively, then it will not be judged correctly. How many threads do we have here about herding roots and behaviors grounded in herding that cause problems for the average newbie owner with a puppy that bites or chases or won’t listen or barks too much? Aren’t those behaviors all grounded in herding? The only reason herding was short lived is that most people don’t have sheep or cattle. We did not abandon herding, it abandoned our dogs, because culturally and economically, it made no sense for most people to live on ranches and own livestock. So, if that is the case, why not breed out herding abilities and move our dogs to the working dog group? The fact is, most herding dogs never see a sheep or a cow in their lives, but other breeds don’t use rigorous titling as a guidelines for breeding? Why not? What standards were used to breed your ACD or your Mals? Well, maybe the Mals have working titles. The reason we don’t want to give up on herding is that those are the traits we also like in our dogs. Technically, can’t we say that any German Shepherd not used for herding is not fulfilling its purpose in being bred? How many people here have ever worked their dogs for a career? Very few. More title their dogs in sports, but the vast majority of the thousands of members who have come through this forum are pet owners who never do anything with their dog except fun activities, if that.


Herding is not judged correctly. There is a copyrighted article on Leerburg which is an interview with Manfred Heyne in 2001. He states the HGH title no longer has anything to do with herding. He would know. He was one of the premiere breeders striving to preserve the herding lines and shepherding was his work. You can Google Leerburg interview with Manfred Heyne and find the article. The same is true of IGP not having anything to do with a dog's capacity for police work. Heyne was a shepherd, won HGH trials when they were real and participated in schutzhund and talks about the importance of prey drive and the proper grip in GSDs taking down sheep and in schH.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Well, I feel like we have established the following: titles mean nothing, IGP is not a good breed test, most people are not fit to own GSDs, most GSDs are not fit to be called GSDs, and many breeders are terrible. Did I miss anything?


🙃


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## Chip Blasiole

That sums it up nicely.


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## Jenny720

Chip I think you have to get off the internet and actually some real herding your with dogs. Don’t fight it you might be hooked. Nothing like it maybe get a farm with sheep it will be truly the gsds pack then and then it will be more real life experience. Psa is a safe environment In a planned safe setting - attempted prep work for real world / life. Nothing like spontaneous real world crap to test dogs.


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## Jenny720

I think everyone needs to go out and enjoy there dogs.


----------



## Jax08

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well, I feel like we have established the following: titles mean nothing, IGP is not a good breed test, most people are not fit to own GSDs, most GSDs are not fit to be called GSDs, and many breeders are terrible. Did I miss anything?
> 
> 
> 🙃


I NEVER said titles meant nothing. Titles mean a lot. Nor did I say IGP is a not a good breed test. Only people who don't train in that venue spout that. But, IMO, the training is a more valuable tool than the title in deciding what is breedworthy and what isn't and ONLY IF the human is honest about what is in front of them.

Wait....were you being sarcastic? See, I have a LOT of people on ignore because they rant uneducated BS so I'm probably not seeing all that garbage.


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## Chip Blasiole

I am not saying the breed no longer has the ability to herd/tend. I am saying, just like in IGP, a large portion of the genetics that made the breed so special as herding dogs and later as police/military dogs has been lost due to the SV's practices where things are watered down so that top herding dogs from generations ago were leaps and bounds above today's herding dogs. Heyne talks about how shepherds were poor people and could not afford to get a pup, train him for herding and then find the dog is lacking genetically and go out and get another one. As he mentions in the article, the HGH title is more about conformation than herding. Certain countries have banned or tried to ban stick hits in schH/IGP and a wooden reed was originally used before the padded stick. Many European countries have banned ecollars and prong collars. It all has become more of a circus show than a way to select dogs for breeding at specific real world endeavors where resilient, strong, confident dogs are needed. The nearly total eradication of social aggression from the breed speaks volumes as does the loss of genetic obedience in the herding lines. I have no interest in herding and thoroughly enjoy training in PSA, where at least there is a challenge to the dog and the training. I wouldn't say PSA is a safe environment to many dogs and there are always surprise scenarios that you can train for but don't know exactly what you will see at trial.


----------



## Jenny720

@Jax08 although I can not speak for the cowboysgirl I am 💯 sure the comment is sarcastic and in regards to Chip since it has been his continuous sermon.


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## Jax08

Jenny720 said:


> @Jax08 although I can not speak for the cowboysgirl I am 💯 sure the comment is sarcastic and in regards to Chip since it has been his continuous sermon.



ohhhh...yeah....I have him on ignore. I can't be bothered with that nonsense. LOL I can't understand why a person needs to pee in everyone else's cheerios.


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## Jenny720

@Jax08 Lol!  Me neither. Big credits for people doing things with their dogs and enjoying their dogs. It is not always the case in this world.


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## Sabis mom

BigOzzy2018 said:


> People want a lab or golden type in a GSD body. Breeders or so called breeders are washing out the true temperament health prey and energy in the GSD so they can accommodate the need for people who want low drive Pet me pet me couch potato’s.
> it sickens me to see more and more of this.
> ultimately it’s is the BYB’s and even quality breeders who sell puppies to the unknown inexperienced people first time dog owners.
> how many posts on here about issues with puppies in every aspect. I can’t even respond to those anymore since I will be banned for going off on people who have no business getting a GSD let alone a puppy.


One of the things I truly like about Ozzy is the versatility he has displayed. It is a cornerstone of the breed and something that is getting lost more and more. I have no issue with people doing bite sports, I just want to see more. Show me a dog that can herd, track, do agility or dock diving. Throw detection or rally at them. I love seeing obedience titles. As @Jax08 said it's the training, more then the titles. But I think people get tunnel vision. There is a sect of people who believe that IGP is the be all and end all.
Not a single one of my patrol partners had a title, but I can promise that every day that they worked they were pushed. There is no simulation that can match the pressure. I think Sabi would have failed in a ring because she had supreme discernment ability and there is no threat. She would have respond to someone making contact with me, but not in the same way as a threat. Bud would also have failed, less discernment and stellar obedience but if you convinced him of a threat then he saw no reason to allow your continued existence.


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## Chip Blasiole

It is funny you mention Cheerios. It is promoted as a healthy food when in reality, it is a heavily processed food packed with unhealthy ingredients and contains glyphosate which has been linked to cancer, which might be a reason to pee in someone's Cheerios.


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## Jenny720

@Chip Blasiole in regards to the Cheerios being not healthy is the one thing I can agree upon. American people have been so blinded by the sales pitch of what is healthy and what is not. One must do there own research. I implore on healthy foods. What is going on in the USA in regards to health is devastating. I have seen the amounts of people getting chemo treatment and it is unsettling. There is also a good documentary on farming on Netflix called Kiss the ground. 

To anyone reading this flav city has so many great YouTube videos. Where he also talks about how saturated fats are food for you and how it is spouted they are not.


----------



## dogma13

MOD WARNING
_If you all would like the thread to stay open less snark and more polite disagreement is a good idea_


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

It was sarcasm---and maybe a poke at all of us to stop being so negative....

I'd like to see a passionate thread about what we love about our dogs, what we are proud of our dogs for. I could go on for days about that.

_I_ don't think my dog is a pansy or his titles are pansy titles. I am proud as heck of him, even moreso that he manages to go out and score quite well despite being stuck with me and my really bad nerves and therefore sometimes me being kind of a poor partner.. He's had tons of glowing compliments from judges so it isn't just my imagination. 

You know what I love most about him? He tries SO hard for me. I mean, he really gives it everything he's got, in every training session, in every trial I've ever entered him. The effort he puts forth to get it right, despite my flubbing commands or signals or sending to the jump too late (did that last trial and you know what he managed to bang a left and get out there and clear the jump despite being the biggest dog in competition and doing it with just about the least amount of space.)

I'm proud that he is gentle enough to allow a year old toddler to try and learn to throw his ball for him and he patiently waits for the ball to the hit the ground and never tries to grab it from the toddler. There weren't supposed to be babies or toddlers in our lives but surprise! There is. So thank goodness my dogs have been great.

The #1 job most of our dogs have is as our pets, living in our homes as our companions. How well they do at that is not pointless in my opinion.


----------



## Jax08

Listen People - if you are out there training and enjoying your dog so that your dog can function in society - You are awesome. What others say matters not. Especially what a stranger on the internet says.


----------



## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> I am not saying the breed no longer has the ability to herd/tend. I am saying, just like in IGP, a large portion of the genetics that made the breed so special as herding dogs and later as police/military dogs has been lost due to the SV's practices where things are watered down so that top herding dogs from generations ago were leaps and bounds above today's herding dogs. Heyne talks about how shepherds were poor people and could not afford to get a pup, train him for herding and then find the dog is lacking genetically and go out and get another one. As he mentions in the article, the HGH title is more about conformation than herding. Certain countries have banned or tried to ban stick hits in schH/IGP and a wooden reed was originally used before the padded stick. Many European countries have banned ecollars and prong collars. It all has become more of a circus show than a way to select dogs for breeding at specific real world endeavors where resilient, strong, confident dogs are needed. The nearly total eradication of social aggression from the breed speaks volumes as does the loss of genetic obedience in the herding lines. I have no interest in herding and thoroughly enjoy training in PSA, where at least there is a challenge to the dog and the training. I wouldn't say PSA is a safe environment to many dogs and there are always surprise scenarios that you can train for but don't know exactly what you will see at trial.


I do have a question I’ve been meaning to ask. You have been disappointed with shepherds on the basis of working ability, temperament and health for what, almost 15 years? You have spoken very highly of malinois and the KNPV lines during that time. Why is it you have a shepherd? I’ve heard you complain about at least 2 dogs in that time having bad elbows and similar refrains about working abilities. For your high regard of other breeds, I don’t see why you returned to this one.


----------



## dogma13

_Confession: I laugh at the sarcastic remarks along with everyone else. Just trying to head off the angry remarks before they happen.

 _I like Cheerios


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Jenny720 said:


> @Chip Blasiole in regards to the Cheerios being not healthy is the one thing I can agree upon. American people have been so blinded by the sales pitch of what is healthy and what is not. One must do there own research. I implore on healthy foods. What is going on in the USA in regards to health is devastating. I have seen the amounts of people getting chemo treatment and it is unsettling. There is also a good documentary on farming on Netflix called Kiss the ground.
> 
> To anyone reading this flav city has so many great YouTube videos. Where he also talks about how saturated fats are food for you and how it is spouted they are not.


It was a metaphor for my opinions.
Bearhandler,
I decided to give one more chance with a GSD, but it will probably be my last after seeing so many much more talented Mals with far fewer health problems. I am very pleased with my current dog, but GSDs are, IMO lacking what a good Mal offers.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Chip Blasiole said:


> Herding is not judged correctly. There is a copyrighted article on Leerburg which is an interview with Manfred Heyne in 2001. He states the HGH title no longer has anything to do with herding. He would know. He was one of the premiere breeders striving to preserve the herding lines and shepherding was his work. You can Google Leerburg interview with Manfred Heyne and find the article. The same is true of IGP not having anything to do with a dog's capacity for police work. Heyne was a shepherd, won HGH trials when they were real and participated in schutzhund and talks about the importance of prey drive and the proper grip in GSDs taking down sheep and in schH.


Thank you. I’ll read that.


----------



## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Hmmm.. not so sure of what I have said that makes you think that I don't support herding. I do, very much. What I don't support is this chaotic prey drive seen in so many sport dogs of today. I want to see mega attraction to the sheep...and that is a large part of what is missing and IMO... one of the breed's greatest downfalls. But let me repeat... bitework IS entrenched in herding/prey drive. It's no accident that GSDs, Mals, Dutchies, and other herding breeds have dominated the bitework venue for decades.
> 
> But to clarify further... what do titles tell us about appropriate prey drive and attraction to sheep and livestock? Unless it is a herding type venue.. I would venture to say very little...
> 
> 
> View attachment 565088


That picture is perfect. If it was my dog, I’d frame it.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well, I feel like we have established the following: titles mean nothing, IGP is not a good breed test, most people are not fit to own GSDs, most GSDs are not fit to be called GSDs, and many breeders are terrible. Did I miss anything?
> 
> 
> 🙃


They are all poor tests, therefore we should not test? You did not miss what was posted here by some.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Here is an example of the incredible agility and confidence the breed can offer.


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## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> Here is an example of the incredible agility and confidence the breed can offer.


I think its more accurate to call a lot of those dogs Belgian working dogs. They are a mashup of whatever they think works best. There are many advantages you come across when you aren't really limited by breed in creating the best working dogs. One is health. I believe that there are plenty of shepherds who can compete and outwork them.


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## Jenny720

@Chip Blasiole and I took your metaphor and trampled on it - could not help but get some real hard facts in this thread


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## WNGD

LuvShepherds said:


> I agree with that point, about using titles today to judge workability but disagree about dropping herding as a standard. Except the breed is what it has become, whether we like it or not. If there are no longer any titles that judge the breed effectively, then it will not be judged correctly. How many threads do we have here about herding roots and behaviors grounded in herding that cause problems for the average newbie owner with a puppy that bites or chases or won’t listen or barks too much? Aren’t those behaviors all grounded in herding? The only reason herding was short lived is that most people don’t have sheep or cattle. We did not abandon herding, it abandoned our dogs, because culturally and economically, it made no sense for most people to live on ranches and own livestock. So, if that is the case, why not breed out herding abilities and move our dogs to the working dog group? The fact is, most herding dogs never see a sheep or a cow in their lives, but other breeds don’t use rigorous titling as a guidelines for breeding? Why not? What standards were used to breed your ACD or your Mals? Well, maybe the Mals have working titles. The reason we don’t want to give up on herding is that those are the traits we also like in our dogs. Technically, can’t we say that any German Shepherd not used for herding is not fulfilling its purpose in being bred? How many people here have ever worked their dogs for a career? Very few. More title their dogs in sports, but the vast majority of the thousands of members who have come through this forum are pet owners who never do anything with their dog except fun activities, if that.


I'd wager there are 100X the number of border collies doing agility than there are actually herding. Another dog most people shouldn't own though.


----------



## WNGD

LuvShepherds said:


> You have no idea. The most recent interaction was the end of years of discussion, not the beginning. It’s become a head-desk or car into a brick wall kind of moment. She has had German Shepherds for over 20 years. I have known her online in a non-dog venue for a long time. The first one did alright in her yard, so she got a second one from a BYB out of state. Before she did, I researched breeders for her, found several who were within a day’s drive for her and prioritized which ones were the best match. I had no idea then she was going to keep the dog confined outdoors and alone with one other dog all day and night. Instead, she was out of state, found a puppy while she was there for $400 and brought it home. I won’t post details on the open forum but feel free to PM me if you want the longer version.
> 
> Four years ago, when the dog was middle aged, it began attacking their other dog that was a mix I can’t mention, except it had some Lab. At that point, she refused to do anything to fix the behavior and limited the dog to half the yard so the other dog could have room to be alone. The dog died before it hit old age, I’m sure due to lack of exercise or attention. I invited her to a small group of friends who have as much as 30 years or more of GSD experience each and they all told her the same thing. Bring your dogs indoors, exercise and train them, give them a reason to live beyond tormenting each other. She got angry and quit the group, which was for the best because they kicked her out at the same time. They told her she was abusing her dogs, So, when she told me she found a puppy from the same BYB as her dog who just died, I decided I was not ready for another fight that would go nowhere. It’s very sad, but I can’t fix everyone and I don’t want to try,


Thanks for the additional information and context. You did the right thing then.

I'll still say that if someone asks me for a breeder recommendation for a family lifestyle that clearly doesn't mesh, I try to help them do research and clearly understand what they are in for vs the TV image of perfect dogs....as I'm sure you would. The same as I would for a pittie, a border collie or a Woldhound :0)


----------



## WNGD

BigOzzy2018 said:


> how many posts on here about issues with puppies in every aspect. I can’t even respond to those anymore since I will be banned for going off on people who have no business getting a GSD let alone a puppy.


I'm getting there and if I read between the lines, I think David is too.
It's easy to come off as a jack azz and you start looking just critical

"GSD are not for everyone"....you know the drill


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## Jenny720

A german shepherd was never a Belgian Malinois never should be. I think a lot of breeders are aiming for that only for the sake of competition


----------



## LuvShepherds

WNGD said:


> I'd wager there are 100X the number of border collies doing agility than there are actually herding. Another dog most people shouldn't own though.


Because agility is similar to herding. I hear that about BCs but I run into people who have them and their dogs are calm and well behaved.


----------



## LuvShepherds

WNGD said:


> Thanks for the additional information and context. You did the right thing then.
> 
> I'll still say that if someone asks me for a breeder recommendation for a family lifestyle that clearly doesn't mesh, I try to help them do research and clearly understand what they are in for vs the TV image of perfect dogs....as I'm sure you would. The same as I would for a pittie, a border collie or a Woldhound :0)


I did that the first time and spent far too much time agonizing over how truly inane she is, before I realized it did not matter to her at all what I thought. All she wanted was a breeder name so she could drive over and pick up a dog.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Bearshandler said:


> I think its more accurate to call a lot of those dogs Belgian working dogs. They are a mashup of whatever they think works best. There are many advantages you come across when you aren't really limited by breed in creating the best working dogs. One is health. I believe that there are plenty of shepherds who can compete and outwork them.


What is your objective evidence of your opinion? Have you ever seen a GSD display similar behaviors? The result is the proof of the pudding.


----------



## coolgsd

GSDluv22 said:


> I want to breed to improve on structure and temperament. I see too many broken down shepherds with no confidence............... I just want the information.


There are already thousands that are saying the same thing "I just want to improve them". How will you do a better job of doing that than breeders who have decades of experience and contacts for matching the genetics? What makes you think you have some magical plan that can make a better GSD? Have you thought that possibly the "broken down shepherds with no confidence" came from someone attempting to "improve the breed without knowing what they were doing? There are supposedly 10 MILLION GSDs in the world and someone wants to do something different that will improve the breed. Do you realize how that sounds.
Some people thought they had a better plan than Max Von Stephanitz to standardize a breed to be termed the German Shepherd Dog. That is why good and reputable breeders follow the standard and spend thousands of hours - not to mention dollars - to get a breeding program going.


----------



## Bearshandler

@Chip Blasiole what similar behaviors? What objective evidence could I possibly give you to change your mind?


----------



## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> I decided to give one more chance with a GSD, but it will probably be my last after seeing so many much more talented Mals with far fewer health problems. I am very pleased with my current dog, but GSDs are, IMO lacking what a good Mal offers.


Always confuses me that people come here to dis the breed. 
I watched the video. Big freakin deal. Half those behaviors would be a PITA if taught and I had a 117lb GSD that used to climb trees. He liked apples. Bud could go over a 6' fence from a sit faster then I could say no. I like BM's, have zero desire to own one but I like them. At work? Give me a GSD any day. 
To each their own. If you don't like them that's your call. But to sit in the middle of a group of breed lovers and call them down is just rude.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I think people are way off base on most of what Chip is trying to say. That's actually pretty scary IF you really appreciate this breed for what it was meant to be vs what it is becoming, or has it already gone there?

Not so long ago a well respected breeder stated that she immediately crosses off the first 10 podium dogs at the WUSV from her breeding program, often the first 20. Surely she must have a good reason for doing so while still maintaining a very high demand from selective people.


----------



## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think people are way off base on most of what Chip is trying to say. That's actually pretty scary IF you really appreciate this breed for what it was meant to be vs what it is becoming, or has it already gone there?


I am not pleased with the direction the breed is heading. But I see two definite and contradictory issues that are pulling it down. One is the pet breeders that are producing the watered down version but at the opposite end are the sport breeders. 
The breed should be all about balance. A dog that is so aggressive it cannot exist in a home is as much an issue for me as the one that hides behind the couch. Any dog that is a threat to a child has no business being bred. Any dog that needs a world class trainer or handler has no business being bred. This breed should not need to be kept in a kennel, a dedicated owner with a modicum of common sense should have no real issues.
I'm not talking about stupid owners, I mean owners who are willing to do the work.
But that goes for most dogs.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think people are way off base on most of what Chip is trying to say. That's actually pretty scary IF you really appreciate this breed for what it was meant to be vs what it is becoming, or has it already gone there?
> 
> Not so long ago a well respected breeder stated that she immediately crosses off the first 10 podium dogs at the WUSV from her breeding program, often the first 20. Surely she must have a good reason for doing so while still maintaining a very high demand from selective people.


It’s interesting when people make the argument they want German shepherds to be more like malinois. Generally those dogs operate at an extreme level of drive. How many people here say they want a shepherd with extreme drives? I honestly can’t think of any. I also don’t understand when people complain about the health of the breed and the turn around and say they should be going all out for working ability at the expense of health.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> I decided to give one more chance with a GSD, but it will probably be my last after seeing so many much more talented Mals with far fewer health problems. I am very pleased with my current dog, but GSDs are, IMO lacking what a good Mal offers.


Chip, will you please define "what a good mal offers" a little further for me? specifically in terms of temperament?

Some years back a reliable source reported he was over in either holland or belgium looking at available high end performance bred mals, and no pedigrees were offered. When he asked if he could buy a pedigree the breeder answered "sure, what do you want on it?." In other words it's an open genepool and performance breeders simply linebreed "head peds." Frankly because_ so inbred_ you'd never put it in writing  Shortly thereafter said reliable source linked me to a performance mal ped database and I found all sorts of _SUPER TIGHT_ backcrosses, right up front .

I guess the most important point of all that is, unless somebody somewhere purebreeds for the sake of purebreeding, performance breeders won't have anything to crossbreed. So it takes all kinds , regardless of where any of us are personally at with any of it. Genetically speaking, the more the merrier.

I wish I could remember where that database was. Does anyone recognize the database I'm describing?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> I am not pleased with the direction the breed is heading. But I see two definite and contradictory issues that are pulling it down. One is the pet breeders that are producing the watered down version but at the opposite end are the sport breeders.
> The breed should be all about balance. A dog that is so aggressive it cannot exist in a home is as much an issue for me as the one that hides behind the couch. Any dog that is a threat to a child has no business being bred. Any dog that needs a world class trainer or handler has no business being bred. This breed should not need to be kept in a kennel, a dedicated owner with a modicum of common sense should have no real issues.
> I'm not talking about stupid owners, I mean owners who are willing to do the work.
> But that goes for most dogs.


And you really can't see that is essentially what Chip is saying? Except Chip is saying that it has all been but lost today, and I absolutely agree.

Any true lover of this breed knows that a GSD is a fantastic pet for the right home, not for every home.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> Chip, will you please define "what a good mal offers" a little further for me? specifically in terms of temperament?
> 
> Some years back a reliable source reported he was over in either holland or belguim looking at available high end performance bred mals, and no pedigrees were offered. When he asked if he could buy a pedigree the breeder answered "sure, what do you want on it?." In other words it's an open genepool and performance breeders simply linebreed "head peds." Frankly because_ so inbred_ you'd never put it in writing  Shortly thereafter said reliable source linked me to a performance mal ped database and I found all sorts of _SUPER TIGHT_ backcrosses, right up front .
> 
> I guess the most important point of all that is, unless somebody somewhere purebreeds for the sake of purebreeding, performance breeders won't have anything to crossbreed. So it takes all kinds , regardless of where any of us are personally at with any of it. Genetically speaking, the more the merrier.
> 
> I wish I could remember where that database was. Does anyone recognize the database I'm describing?


This? 



Bloedlijnen.nl | Home


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I don't think so... the one I saw had no fotos and wasn't interactive, but that was a long time ago, so maybe updated?

interesting they document bsdxdsd peds? imo that's liable to encourage outbreeding depression...


----------



## WNGD

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Any true lover of this breed knows that a GSD is a fantastic pet for the right home, not for every home.


Hey that's my line (TM)


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WNGD said:


> Hey that's my line (TM)


I am older than you and have been using it longer than you.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't think so... the one I saw had no fotos and wasn't interactive, but that was a long time ago, so maybe updated?
> 
> interesting they document bsdxdsd peds? imo that's liable to encourage outbreeding depression...


It has changed hands not so long ago with all of the originators leaving. I don't know why but since the change, registration seems to be more difficult.


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## David Winners

What sport accurately tests dogs for actual work? Neither IPG or PSA actually depict real world situations. There is no detection in either sport, and that is a major role in the utilization of working dogs. The bitework in both sports is unrealistic. Tracking in IPG is an obedience exercise. While PSA and ring sports are a terrific challenge, they in no way replicate working a dog on the street or in the sandbox.

Without going on a tirade against sports, which is not my intent, testing a dog for working ability involves some high pressure bitework, testing hunt and ball drive. I certainly don't want a focused heel. I don't need much obedience in the presence of a threat. I don't even need a solid out.

Sports are about training. Form over function. A title tells me the dog can be trained and the handler put in the time. Very few military or LE dogs are titled. Even the KNPV bred dogs are green. They bite, that's it. They are selected for drive and nerves.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> What sport accurately tests dogs for actual work? Neither IPG or PSA actually depict real world situations. There is no detection in either sport, and that is a major role in the utilization of working dogs. The bitework in both sports is unrealistic. Tracking in IPG is an obedience exercise. While PSA and ring sports are a terrific challenge, they in no way replicate working a dog on the street or in the sandbox.
> 
> Without going on a tirade against sports, which is not my intent, testing a dog for working ability involves some high pressure bitework, testing hunt and ball drive. I certainly don't want a focused heel. I don't need much obedience in the presence of a threat. I don't even need a solid out.
> 
> Sports are about training. Form over function. A title tells me the dog can be trained and the handler put in the time. Very few military or LE dogs are titled. Even the KNPV bred dogs are green. They bite, that's it. They are selected for drive and nerves.


Where is the applause button?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> What sport accurately tests dogs for actual work? Neither IPG or PSA actually depict real world situations.


I think it's important to keep in context that SchH was the breeding selection which developed the breed. Obviously none of that is static. Both breeding selection as well as the breed itself have evolved since either/both were developed.

but still, context...


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> I think it's important to keep in context that SchH was the breeding selection that developed the breed. Obviously none of that is static. Both breeding selection as well as the breed itself have evolved since either/both were developed.
> 
> but still, context...


How has the SCH routine ever emulated the work done by a police dog? 

A test didn't develop the breed, breeders developed the breed. A test may have guided some that were motivated by the benefits of doing well at the test. Others were motivated by the work and benefits of producing dogs that did well at the work. 

The same holds true today.


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## berno von der seeweise

SchH was breeding selection. If it weren't for SchH, the breed as we know it would not exist. 

case closed


----------



## David Winners

That said, I totally enjoy dog sports and I am looking forward to participating.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> What sport accurately tests dogs for actual work? Neither IPG or PSA actually depict real world situations. There is no detection in either sport, and that is a major role in the utilization of working dogs. The bitework in both sports is unrealistic. Tracking in IPG is an obedience exercise. While PSA and ring sports are a terrific challenge, they in no way replicate working a dog on the street or in the sandbox.
> 
> Without going on a tirade against sports, which is not my intent, testing a dog for working ability involves some high pressure bitework, testing hunt and ball drive. I certainly don't want a focused heel. I don't need much obedience in the presence of a threat. I don't even need a solid out.
> 
> Sports are about training. Form over function. A title tells me the dog can be trained and the handler put in the time. Very few military or LE dogs are titled. Even the KNPV bred dogs are green. They bite, that's it. They are selected for drive and nerves.


It is certainly easier when you start with a green dog vice an unborn or young puppy. If you were buying a puppy with the intention of working him on the streets, what is it you look for?


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## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> It is certainly easier when you start with a green dog vice an unborn or young puppy. If you were buying a puppy with the intention of working him on the streets, what is it you look for?


A breeder that produces working dogs.


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## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> A breeder that produces working dogs.


That is not easy to identify for most.


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## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> That is not easy to identify for most.


It's just a matter of asking questions and checking references.


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> SchH was breeding selection. If it weren't for SchH, the breed as we know it would not exist.
> 
> case closed


His highness has spoken


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> SchH was breeding selection. If it weren't for SchH, the breed as we know it would not exist.
> 
> case closed


The breed as who knows it? How many titled dogs have you trained to work on the street? How many dogs have you worked and or titled?


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## berno von der seeweise

__





history of schutzhund - Google Search






www.google.com


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## tim_s_adams

David Winners said:


> The breed as who knows it? How many titled dogs have you trained to work on the street? How many dogs have you worked and or titled?


Just curious David, how many titled dogs have you trained to work on the street?


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## Kazel

Bearshandler said:


> It is certainly easier when you start with a green dog vice an unborn or young puppy. If you were buying a puppy with the intention of working him on the streets, what is it you look for?


The videos are for you, the rest is in response to others. 












Plenty of breeds have developed very excellent dogs at their jobs without the use of breed requirement tests. A herder doesn’t need to get a herding title on his dog to know that the dog will indeed herd. An LGD breeder certainly won’t be titling their dogs in protection, they’ll be out living with and protecting the stock. Breeding tests/minimum requirements are good and at some level depending on breeds I think they’re great. But for others actually doing the job is better than any test and unless you’re breeding for titles/sports, titles are less important than the dog actually being capable of the work. An AKC herding title or instinct test is worthless if I’m looking for herding dogs. An agility title doesn’t tell me if a dog can herd. But at the same time health and temperament test and outside evaluations can be beneficial. In border collies noise sensitivity can be a huge issue, but a lot of dogs have enough drive they will work through that so it has a larger impact when the dog isn’t working. Such as running off when not working during a thunderstorm.That is something minimum breed evaluations could help identify and try to steer breeders away from producing.


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## berno von der seeweise

of course I don't mean to knock scotland yard, god save the queen and all that  but the clanging food bowl is a bit gimmicky. The best individuals in any given litter will approach eagerly when the dam's food bowl clangs @ feeding time, pre-wean; so that's really not much of a test...



https://www.searchdogs.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Volhard-Puppy-Aptitude-Test.pdf


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## Chip Blasiole

About the only sport that focuses on testing dogs as police dogs is KNPV and I guess you could argue the American version of KNPV, APA, but I don't see that taking off very well. And then the dogs selected are only candidates and need further training. Berno, where do you get "so inbred" when some programs outcross to other breeds? A good Mal offers speed, agility, power, a much higher level of drive that doesn't go down with punishment and allows for a very high degree of trainability. Plus fewer health problems. Fight has practically been bred out of GSDs as well, largely due to IGP. It wasn't that long ago that police looking for good GSDs with fight could not find them and went to the Czech lines and settled for defense rather than fight. A good Mal has competitive aggression where the more you push it, the harder it pushes back. If you can't see the motivation and intensity in the video I posted and see that GSDs are not agile or driven enough to offer that behavior, you are wearing blinders. And I don't think a GSD should be like a Mal.


----------



## David Winners

tim_s_adams said:


> Just curious David, how many titled dogs have you trained to work on the street?


4 that I can remember.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> Berno, where do you get "so inbred" when some programs outcross to other breeds?


having thought about all that a little more, the peds weren't written in french, so I bet it must have been dutch? ah, shoot! according to wiki they speak dutch in belgium too, so? who knows where it was? As for the inbreeding, I was surprised by the number of son x dam matings illlustrated in the peds.

it's all pretty well greek to me? I have no bsd experience, and only the one "working line" gsd (little igor) for reference. According to my own observation, compared to the other ddr breeds I have known, that individual ddr gsd lacks prey.

so I wonder/assume maybe bsd brings the prey component to modern bsd/dsd/gsd composite breeding schemes?

as for the sport vs sport debate, in terms of traditional gsd culture ipg is more correct, but psa looks more challenging. I'm glad to see Protection Sports Association Home - PSAK9-AS is the parent org for american schutzhund. The tracking phases may not be entirely realistic enough to suit some, but it's certainly far better than none at all.


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## Chip Blasiole

Many of those pedigrees, as you pointed out, are not at all accurate, but the breeders know what they are breeding and why. That is why the KNPV non FCI lines have no papers.


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## berno von der seeweise

"head peds" _ie; _existing in the breeder's head rather than on paper. Beyond just dogs, that's pretty universal in purely performance based (beef/wool/dairy/etc) breeding programs because everything is such a constant state of flux. Here today, BBQ tomorrow  granted that sounds awfully harsh, but it's precisely that attitude which propelled mal to it's position as the top working breed today.


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## onyx'girl

KNPV also washes a lot of dogs. It isn't really sport but putting dogs into working careers. I think this thread has shown why putting titles on dogs is important. It doesn't prove a breeding program however. 

Titles take a huge commitment and training is only as good as the trainer. If you are a breeder and want titles to prove your program, do you send off the dogs(ones you have bred, not bought) for quick foundation to earn a title just to breed? Or do you take a couple years, then decide to wash the dog from your program because you don't really want to reproduce some of the traits you see through training. Not all breeders will share how many dogs they've had to wash, though. And because they've put so much time into said dog, will decide to breed anyway. 
Look at the bigger picture! If I am looking for a well bred dog to work, I look at the breeders program history first. This includes health as well as temperament.


----------



## WNGD

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am older than you and have been using it longer than you.


TM over rules you .... and I'm an old soul


----------



## WNGD

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Where is the applause button?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

onyx'girl said:


> KNPV also washes a lot of dogs. It isn't really sport but putting dogs into working careers. I think this thread has shown why putting titles on dogs is important. It doesn't prove a breeding program however.
> 
> Titles take a huge commitment and training is only as good as the trainer. If you are a breeder and want titles to prove your program, do you send off the dogs(ones you have bred, not bought) for quick foundation to earn a title just to breed? Or do you take a couple years, then decide to wash the dog from your program because you don't really want to reproduce some of the traits you see through training. Not all breeders will share how many dogs they've had to wash, though. And because they've put so much time into said dog, will decide to breed anyway.
> Look at the bigger picture! If I am looking for a well bred dog to work, I look at the breeders program history first. This includes health as well as temperament.


Some very competent breeders and trainers have good connections that they trust and import untitled dogs just for breeding because they know the dogs are super dogs, extreme, and have produced well. So there is no need to title or they have the minimum of a PH1. I am referring to KNPV Mal X's so there is no comparable program to title them in anyway. They can see what the dog is and usually the training in Holland creates issues for other sports because it is very heavy on compulsion with poor control. As David pointed out they look for drives and nerves. They can import such a stud dog and breed to certain females and get dogs suitable for sport and some suitable for police work. That way they have a market for working dogs and police dogs depending on the breeding or individuals from a breeding. Other sports are largely a hobby for participants or at the highest IGP levels there is a profit incentive, but for the most part, most sport titles have little value in terms of selection for breeding. Often it involves a countries registry's requirement that a breed have an IGP, SVV or ZVV title in order to be bred, but the title has no effect on the dog's genetics.


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## LuvShepherds

Are we assuming breeders should only breed dogs for working homes? If so, then most people would not own GSDs in the future, as most don’t plan to work their dogs and don’t want them for those purposes. Theoretically, this all makes sense and I tend to agree, but in practice it’s never going to happen.


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## Jax08

LuvShepherds said:


> Are we assuming breeders should only breed dogs for working homes? If so, then most people would not own GSDs in the future, as most don’t plan to work their dogs and don’t want them for those purposes. Theoretically, this all makes sense and I tend to agree, but in practice it’s never going to happen.


It's a sad day when GSD's can only function in working homes. I think the issue is the new flavor for pet people is "working line" because they like the look but are unprepared for the dog itself. 10 years ago, most people hadn't even seen a sable. I remember a guy stopping me to tell me how he had one of those "rare" sables. I don't feel working line breeders should water down dogs because pet people all want a "straight backed sable" and don't understand these are indeed working dogs that need mental stimulation. On the other hand, I hate that breeders are producing dogs that can't settle, are chasing their tails and have high prey aggression because that's what sport is heading for. So breeders need to breed good, balanced, dogs and potential buyers need to do their homework. I know good breeders try to weed out the people that have no idea what they are getting in to.


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## Chip Blasiole

LuvShepherds said:


> Are we assuming breeders should only breed dogs for working homes? If so, then most people would not own GSDs in the future, as most don’t plan to work their dogs and don’t want them for those purposes. Theoretically, this all makes sense and I tend to agree, but in practice it’s never going to happen.


GSD breeders should have been breeding for working homes only all along, but that horse left the barn a long time ago and isn't coming back and is the root cause for the decline in the breed. High prey is very useful in real life apprehension and detection work and is different than neurotic, hyperactive dogs with OCD features. The breed has been diluted for decades.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Chip Blasiole said:


> GSD breeders should have been breeding for working homes only all along, but that horse left the barn a long time ago and isn't coming back and is the root cause for the decline in the breed. High prey is very useful in real life apprehension and detection work and is different than neurotic, hyperactive dogs with OCD features. The breed has been diluted for decades.


So what is a practical solution? What can we do?


----------



## BigOzzy2018

Chip Blasiole said:


> GSD breeders should have been breeding for working homes only all along, but that horse left the barn a long time ago and isn't coming back and is the root cause for the decline in the breed. High prey is very useful in real life apprehension and detection work and is different than neurotic, hyperactive dogs with OCD features. The breed has been diluted for decades.


And the mals aren’t as well. Not sure what bubble you live in but I’ve see more nervy spinning insane ocd mals then I have nice balanced ones. How many of those great mals live in a kennel going kennel crazy, spinning in Holland??? Look at the shelters and rescues that are in over their heads with mals and yes GSD’s as well. Most has temperament issues health issues and severe anxiety.


----------



## Steve Strom

David Winners said:


> What sport accurately tests dogs for actual work? Neither IPG or PSA actually depict real world situations. There is no detection in either sport, and that is a major role in the utilization of working dogs. The bitework in both sports is unrealistic. Tracking in IPG is an obedience exercise. While PSA and ring sports are a terrific challenge, they in no way replicate working a dog on the street or in the sandbox.
> 
> Without going on a tirade against sports, which is not my intent, testing a dog for working ability involves some high pressure bitework, testing hunt and ball drive. I certainly don't want a focused heel. I don't need much obedience in the presence of a threat. I don't even need a solid out.
> 
> Sports are about training. Form over function. A title tells me the dog can be trained and the handler put in the time. Very few military or LE dogs are titled. Even the KNPV bred dogs are green. They bite, that's it. They are selected for drive and nerves.


When you start attending trials, watch the dogs that end up with close or exact scores and you'll see how very different dogs end up with the same points for very different reasons. When you listen to the critique, then talk to the helpers in down time it'll show you the value of the sport. I'm not disagreeing, but like I said before, it still shows potential that you can test further if someone wanted to.


----------



## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not so long ago a well respected breeder stated that she immediately crosses off the first 10 podium dogs at the WUSV from her breeding program, often the first 20. Surely she must have a good reason for doing so while still maintaining a very high demand from selective people.


Who said that?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Who said that?


If I told you I would have to keel you.


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## David Winners

Steve Strom said:


> When you start attending trials, watch the dogs that end up with close or exact scores and you'll see how very different dogs end up with the same points for very different reasons. When you listen to the critique, then talk to the helpers in down time it'll show you the value of the sport. I'm not disagreeing, but like I said before, it still shows potential that you can test further if someone wanted to.


I totally agree with this. Watching a dog and talking to the helpers will give you a much greater understanding of the dog than the actual title itself.


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## Chip Blasiole

Steve Strom said:


> When you start attending trials, watch the dogs that end up with close or exact scores and you'll see how very different dogs end up with the same points for very different reasons. When you listen to the critique, then talk to the helpers in down time it'll show you the value of the sport. I'm not disagreeing, but like I said before, it still shows potential that you can test further if someone wanted to.


That is the other thing that judging is so subjective and one judge will score something totally different than another. The guy I train with and I did go up to the decoys at our PDC trial, and while my dog scored well, but not the highest in the PDC, all the decoys we talked to said my dog had the best bite mechanics and grip of all the dogs there. But they also expected that because they know the guy who was with me who developed those mechanics, which speaks to the impact of training and how sports can only tell you certain things about a dog.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

BigOzzy2018 said:


> And the mals aren’t as well. Not sure what bubble you live in but I’ve see more nervy spinning insane ocd mals then I have nice balanced ones. How many of those great mals live in a kennel going kennel crazy, spinning in Holland??? Look at the shelters and rescues that are in over their heads with mals and yes GSD’s as well. Most has temperament issues health issues and severe anxiety.


My bubble includes very high drive Mals that are composed and healthy.


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## BigOzzy2018

Chip Blasiole said:


> My bubble includes very high drive Mals that are composed and healthy.


Of course it does.


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## Jenny720

It sounds like someone is around a lot of Belgian Malinois people that trash the gsd breed. Do they breed gsds for only the police and military in Russia where freedoms does not reign? If say Russia did put on limits who decides what breed to get just for the sake of it - I imagine those dogs would run into major issues and become unstable and anxietal issues that are prominent in the Belgian malinois breed due a limited gene pool. There are many sable show lines with straight backs that people can’t even tell the difference. Often people go on to forums such as this and only hear bashing of showlines that they are nervy, hyper and or couch potatoes and crippled which is extreme fake news. Then if they do get a show line it is actually thought that they are getting a golden and lab retriever often told on said forums. When the dog turns out to be more of a challenge then the owners dump them. Those people that dish out that kind of advise are not helping anyone or any dogs. It has been a favorite record. I know it’s raining out but wow.


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> GSD breeders should have been breeding for working homes only all along, but


Strenuously disagree, since the breed was never intended to be working only. It was always intended as a working dog that would live with its people, interact with its family and serve as a companion and guardian for mom and kids while dad was away. It was the vision from the start. It was expressly stated that these animals would never achieve their potential if kenneled away from their people.


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## Chip Blasiole

I'm not around anyone that trashes the GSD breed. I form my own opinions. There are some very nice GSDs out there, but they are not easy to find and "nice" is relative/subjective.


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## MineAreWorkingline

If anybody is trashing GSDs, it is those who don't want a working dog and want to dumb down this breed to suit alternative purposes. There are lots of breeds suited for a variety of venues, some even for "just pets". Pick one. But don't ruin this breed.


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## berno von der seeweise

I just don’t see the conflict of interest? There’s no reason you should have to pick one or the other. In fact, from a performance standpoint it appears universally agreed around here the “knpv” lines are unsurpassed, and it’s universally understood they aren’t quite “purebred.” At least not in the kennel club/conformation sense of the word. There’s no question they are purposefully bred. There’s no question they are deliberately linebred. They just aren’t subject to typical “breed purity myth.” So go ahead. Mix ‘em up, match ‘em up, any way you like. Whatever works. Why not? I can’t see any reason why those so inclined shouldn't?

With all that said, having deep dived the gsd database to it’s furthest reaches, over and over again, it’s become apparent to me that modern gsd descends from countless unique maternal ancestors, yet paternal bottleneck, after paternal bottleneck, after paternal bottle neck. After paternal bottle neck. All the way back to the breed’s very origins. Therefore, if you ask me, I say somebody really ought to try outcrossing and backcrossing knpvx sires x purebred gsd dams. I can’t guarantee it’ll work but, I sure can’t think of any good reason not to try? If I were y’all, that’s what I’d do.

It’s really quite ironic ‘cause I’m here trying to manage closed herds, and after so many generations inbreeding, I’m pretty well painted into a corner. So on a very personal level I’m staring into the same conundrum. It’s time for me to either outcross, again, or just hang it up and find something else to do. It gets in your blood, you know? Hard to let go. But if I don’t let go, one of these days they’re gonna find me out here dead in the snow. Or ate up by coyotes. And right at this moment, I can’t think of a better way to go?

Long may you run, Chip! All you guys!!


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Sabis mom said:


> Strenuously disagree, since the breed was never intended to be working only. It was always intended as a working dog that would live with its people, interact with its family and serve as a companion and guardian for mom and kids while dad was away. It was the vision from the start. It was expressly stated that these animals would never achieve their potential if kenneled away from their people.


The GSD came from a blend of herding dogs with the blend resulting in a particular basic type that was the best for herding. Von Stephanitz standardized the breed in terms of type, mental stability and utility. Beauty was not stressed. Those early dogs worked the fields 24 hours a day and were not kenneled. He was dictatorial regarding the breed and at the time, the German people were used to following commands of military authority. He ran the SV strictly, but was not a very successful breeder which says something. If a GSD lacked in the slightest in structural efficiency for herding, intelligence or temperament, he considered the dog worthless.He did want the breed to be worthy companions, but utility and intelligence was his motto. But he was also a hypocrite. In 1903 when Roland von Starkenburg was born, von Stephanitz held the dog up as a model for the breed due to significant genetic improvement in type, but the dog had weak temperament. There is a lot of mythology about the breed's past and current status.


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## Chip Blasiole

While GSDs are crossed with Mal X's sometimes, in the early 1900's that was attempted and described as a disaster. I don't know any details or how reliable the information is.


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## Sabis mom

*Maintaining the German Shepherd as a Family Dog
Max* *von Stephanitz* believed that the ideal breeders of German shepherds would be families with only a couple of breeding dogs, in order to facilitate daily contact with the dogs as a way of carefully choosing the dogs which would enhance the breed in the future._ “All the wonderful qualities of character possessed by a good shepherd dog will therefore only be brought to light when he remains in the same hands for a very long time, preferably from puppyhood, where having obtained a footing in the house, he shares the joys and sorrows of the family…and our dog is completely ruined in mind and body wherever he is treated only as merchandise…”_
Along these same lines, he did not believe in maintaining dogs in kennels on a regular basis and argued that such would necessarily result in dogs which would be unable to perform to their utmost ability. _“Whenever the dog is kept in an enclosed kennel, he will not only degenerate physically, becoming stiff, sluggish and lazy, but will also become mentally torpid, and lose all his sharpness and vim.”_


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Don't disagree but the writer talks about a good shepherd dog which infers working and being treated like merchandise infers a dog being a pet. I have never kenneled my dogs except for occasional brief periods. I am against sport dogs being kenneled to build drive and frustration.


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## Sabis mom

But my point was the breed was always intended to live with a family. They are not an LGD that lives with its flock independent of a human. 
I'm not in the camp of "dumb them down", I just believe that they were always meant to be a partner not a tool. As such they must be stable enough for family life.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Not with every family, no breed is suitable for every family.


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## Jen84

Sabis mom said:


> As such they must be stable enough for family life.


Chip was talking about culture earlier and society getting softer. I just don't think most families today can handle a real German Shepherd who is supposed to have natural protection and hardness. And all this "positive only", training talk, isn't helping people learn how to handle them either.


----------



## Sabis mom

Jen84 said:


> Chip was talking about culture earlier and society getting softer. I just don't think most families today can handle a real German Shepherd who is supposed to have natural protection and hardness. And all this "positive only", training talk, isn't helping people learn how to handle them either.


I see the opposite issue more often. The dogs being produced are not useful as anything but a kenneled working dog.
My male was a handful. Definitely not a soft dog but overall perfectly acceptable. I never saw him so much as glare at a child, and while he was highly defensive he was also relatively easy to train. I took him out and about with me often, never muzzled. He was perfectly capable of minding his manners and when I had people over he was put away. The issues I had with him stemmed from abuse, not from breeding.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> But my point was the breed was always intended to live with a family. They are not an LGD that lives with its flock independent of a human.


Again I only have the one ddr gsd for reference, but the combination of serviceable active aggression x low prey, typical of all true Continental herding strains, isn't all that far removed from lgd. In either case, as far as lambs, kids, toddlers, imprinting 4-16 weeks is critical. The most significant difference, imo, is gsd's inherent genetic obedience. So yeah, I agree with the above.

But at the same time I do believe there is room in this world for extreme high performance "working" gsd strains. However it ain't never gonna happen with breeders who depend upon conformation orgs for regulation. So I mean a kinda disagree a little bit, too. Or at least I see both sides.


----------



## Jenny720

There are more people guilty of watering down their own dogs doing nothing with them and over feeding them. Its easy enough.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Berno,
What are you referring to regarding active aggression and low prey drive with continental herding strains?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Another problem I see in the GSD breed is that the intelligence that made them so valuable has been selected away from being replaced with traits that favor sport performance. There are still very smart GSDs out there and I feel fortunate to have one.


----------



## ChickiefromTN

Chip Blasiole said:


> Another problem I see in the GSD breed is that the intelligence that made them so valuable has been selected away from being replaced with traits that favor sport performance. There are still very smart GSDs out there and I feel fortunate to have one.


My favorite thing about my young boy is when you can actually SEE him think and problem solve. My girl is smart but is much more about instinct and drives. I've watched my boy think out some amazing solutions to problems.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## berno von der seeweise

Sorry, perhaps I should have said continental herding style. The tending breeds native to continental europe. They were all dual purpose herd/guard strains. As opposed to breeds of the british isles and wherever.










it's worth noting, since I am talking crossbreeding and this is a public forum, we're looking at several different clades in the herding group. Very different parentstocks. Herding breeds aren't just "universally interchangeable" and I do not mean to suggest they are.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Google and read some interviews with Manfred Heyne. He talks about the importance of prey drive and grip in herding as well as schH. He doesn’t make a distinction during his time. Some areas preferred a different target area to take down sheep, but the grip had to be solid yet not cause injury to the sheep.


----------



## WNGD

Jenny720 said:


> There are more people guilty of watering down their own dogs doing nothing with them and over feeding them. Its easy enough.


There are more people guilty of watering down their own dogs by doing nothing with them than there are sufficiently training and exercising them. 

People need to learn that GSD are not for everyone. Maybe not for them


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## MineAreWorkingline

Watering down dogs via environment is of little consequence in the overall scheme of things. Environment will not pass to the next generation.


----------



## Bearshandler

Kazel said:


> The videos are for you, the rest is in response to others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plenty of breeds have developed very excellent dogs at their jobs without the use of breed requirement tests. A herder doesn’t need to get a herding title on his dog to know that the dog will indeed herd. An LGD breeder certainly won’t be titling their dogs in protection, they’ll be out living with and protecting the stock. Breeding tests/minimum requirements are good and at some level depending on breeds I think they’re great. But for others actually doing the job is better than any test and unless you’re breeding for titles/sports, titles are less important than the dog actually being capable of the work. An AKC herding title or instinct test is worthless if I’m looking for herding dogs. An agility title doesn’t tell me if a dog can herd. But at the same time health and temperament test and outside evaluations can be beneficial. In border collies noise sensitivity can be a huge issue, but a lot of dogs have enough drive they will work through that so it has a larger impact when the dog isn’t working. Such as running off when not working during a thunderstorm.That is something minimum breed evaluations could help identify and try to steer breeders away from producing.


I am familiar with how to test puppies. Honestly they look at a lot of things in these tests I don’t care about. It’s pretty simple what I look for. Does he bite and with how much intensity? Is he a spook or does he have strong nerves? The other things I can work through. Those two, while I could potentially work through, are fails for me. Generally in my experience, if he has good nerves, the rest of his temperament won’t be a problem.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> I wish it were as simple. What are some of the questions you ask and to who?
> 
> I am familiar with how to test puppies. Honestly they look at a lot of things in these tests I don’t care about. It’s pretty simple what I look for. Does he bite and with how much intensity? Is he a spook or does he have strong nerves? The other things I can work through. Those two, while I could potentially work through, are fails for me. Generally in my experience, if he has good nerves, the rest of his temperament won’t be a problem.


With so many aloof and suspicious puppies in this breed, how do you determine that a pup has bad nerves vs just suspicion? Honest question. I know how I make that determination but what is your criteria?


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## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> A good Mal has competitive aggression where the more you push it, the harder it pushes back.


There are plenty of shepherds who do the same thing.


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## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> Don't disagree but the writer talks about a good shepherd dog which infers working and being treated like merchandise infers a dog being a pet.


I don’t think treated like merchandise infers pets. Most pet dogs are in their home to stay as long as the owners can manage. Working dogs and sport dogs are bought and sold far more often. Those are the ones more often living in kennels.


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## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> With so many aloof and suspicious puppies in this breed, how do you determine that a pup has bad nerves vs just suspicion? Honest question. I know how I make that determination but what is your criteria?


One is a puppy simply unbothered and uncaring about my presence. In this case me being a person they just met. A dog that isn’t cowering or hiding from me, but is more interested in the environment and what’s happening around them, specifically when I have nothing to offer like food or toys. This applies to me being neutral, or non threatening and not seaking interaction with them. A puppy that also gives me a passing sniff and then leaves to do something else would fall into the same category. If I approach one of these dogs, I would expect them to watch me without giving a reaction. I may expect to see a slight tail wag. I don’t expect to see these dogs looking away or showing signs of stress like lip licking. I would expect the dog, a young puppy in this case to accept minor affection and petting, but not necessarily the overboard puppy voice stuff. This dig stayng in the same position once I walk away is also a sign. The environmentals are another thing to look at. The interactions with the handler/breeder are something else I look at, how readily does the puppy respond to them. I would also expect a non fearful puppy with decent drive to have no problem approaching me for offered food. If I was to do something like rag or flirt pole work, I would expect him to eagerly participate. Overall, if they are aloof, I expect a young puppy to not care about me at all after a short time unless I have something he wants.


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## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> I am familiar with how to test puppies. Honestly they look at a lot of things in these tests I don’t care about. It’s pretty simple what I look for. Does he bite and with how much intensity? Is he a spook or does he have strong nerves? The other things I can work through. Those two, while I could potentially work through, are fails for me. Generally in my experience, if he has good nerves, the rest of his temperament won’t be a problem.


I would start with a Google search. The big kennels will come up. Call and talk to them about the dogs they breed. Ask for professional references. Talk to either department trainers or handlers about their dogs.

You could call VLK and ask for Luther. I'm sure he could point you to any breeders in the Midwest and left coast that are selling quality dogs for police work. I would be happy to call him for you if you wish.

I chose Carmspack because of Carmen and her program. She has produced generations of working dogs and I agree with her goals in a working dog. I am also very familiar with Gus.

If I'm testing a dog for work, I look for confidence and openness. I like to see a dog own a strange room. I look for solid nerves. I agree that most of the small problems can be easily dealt with if you have a solid temperament. I look for hunt and pray drive because detection depends on it. I also like a dog that will follow me and try and engage with me. If it's a puppy, that's about it. If it's a green dog I want to see it bite with confidence and aggression on a strange decoy in a strange location. Preferably in a suit.


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## David Winners

I'm evaluating an 8 week old mal pup Tuesday for a local PD handler. His dog was retired and had a litter. I'll be training them. 

I really like his retired dog and he's a great guy.


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## DeeJn

Chip Blasiole said:


> What is the value of a GSD letting a stranger walk up and touch him. The breed as a police dog was valued for mistrust of strangers.


Because he was TOLD to? Does having a 'mistrust' of strangers means the dog gets to ignore such a simple task? A dog may not like his nails being clipped either, but I will train him to accept it and do it IF I ASK HIM TO. Standing for a quick exam is reasonable . That doesn't mean he needs to sit there and let every stranger in a park come up and pet and hug and pull all over him. As an owner I would not ask that or allow that knowing what the dog is. However I may need the dog to chill for a couple of minutes to be looked over (helps with vet too), and that is not unreasonable.


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## MineAreWorkingline

A GSD allowing a stranger to handle it vs a GSD that has been trained to let a stranger handle it on cue are two separate animals.


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## DeeJn

David Winners said:


> There are lots of working dogs, military and LE, that have no titles. Most of the dogs with SCH titles I've worked washed out.


Even some actively working police dogs aren't the best. As someone who has worked in law enforcement and knows a few K9 handlers, some will talk about their own dogs. One guy I worked with said his dog was great at tracking, but so so at bite work. He WOULD bite, of course, but didn't really want to be there. And he he wasn't the only handler I've heard say that. Yet those dogs were active police dogs. You can tell the dogs that bite because well.. they have to bite...but aren't into it. Over the years you get to know whose dog is serious, and whose just go through the motions a bit. Even watching video of police/k9 interaction with bad guys on TV, you can see some performances by the dogs that makes you think..that dog sucks. So to me even knowing a dog is a police dog I'd still want to see him work.


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## Thecowboysgirl

DeeJn said:


> Because he was TOLD to? Does having a 'mistrust' of strangers means the dog gets to ignore such a simple task? A dog may not like his nails being clipped either, but I will train him to accept it and do it IF I ASK HIM TO. Standing for a quick exam is reasonable . That doesn't mean he needs to sit there and let every stranger in a park come up and pet and hug and pull all over him. As an owner I would not ask that or allow that knowing what the dog is. However I may need the dog to chill for a couple of minutes to be looked over (helps with vet too), and that is not unreasonable.


EXACTLY


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## DeeJn

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A GSD allowing a stranger to handle it vs a GSD that has been trained to let a stranger handle it on cue are two separate animals.


I agree. However, I was responding to a comment that made it seem like there should be no reason for a GSD to be able to do the stand for examination. Because a dog can walk into the ring and do that doesn't make him automatically any LESS mistrustful of people. He is just trained.


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## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A GSD allowing a stranger to handle it vs a GSD that has been trained to let a stranger handle it on cue are two separate animals.


I agree, and my opinion is that a GSD who is right in the head ought to easily learn to do a stand for exam as it is done in the ring.

I don't know enough about police k9s or MWD to say whether the temperament to do that work could or should tolerate it.

But in my opinion, the average GSD absolutely should be able to learn it without a ton of effort.


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## Thecowboysgirl

They all have to learn it. It was harder to teach to my lab than my shepherd! Because the lab wants to have a love fest with anyone who touches him.


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## Jax08

There seems to be a ton of opinions on titling, soo....

Just curious - how many on this thread have actually titled a dog in IPO/IGP or PSA. As a side note, since a PSA3 is so hard to achieve, a PSA1 would be the criteria along with a minimum of IPO/IGP1.

Purposely omitting @David Winners who I know has a large amount of practical experience with working dogs. 

No opinions please. Just post if you've titled a dog in one of these sports. 

Me: 2 dogs.
Seger - IPO3, Regionals. Retired for health issues.
Faren - BH earned last weekend.


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## MineAreWorkingline

From the drift of this thread, it seems many people are taking one member's comments and deliberately skewing them to mean something different and then expecting that member to own and defend the skewed comments. It's an observable forum trait.

Worst case scenario in the situation referenced, put a muzzle on it. The solution does not lie in dumbing down the breed to accommodate the most lackadaisical of owners.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I agree, and my opinion is that a GSD who is right in the head ought to easily learn to do a stand for exam as it is done in the ring.
> 
> I don't know enough about police k9s or MWD to say whether the temperament to do that work could or should tolerate it.
> 
> But in my opinion, the average GSD absolutely should be able to learn it without a ton of effort.


We will have to agree to disagree. That's not to say that there shouldn't be such pups in a litter suitable for the family home that you describe but it should not be a breeder's goal. Breed all pets and there won't be any dogs left to get the job done.


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## berno von der seeweise

I don't care what anybody says, I _know_ little igor worked his heart out to earn that MSPD11


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## Chip Blasiole

*Social aggression*
Social aggression is the only type of aggression that can be categorized as active aggression. Even though the term active aggression is used frequently, it really only applies here. The reason social aggression is called active aggression is because it really does not require any specific action as a trigger stimulus. Social aggression serves two purposes of biological significance. One is ensuring the even distribution of a species across a given territory by repelling equally strong individuals. And the other is to establish and maintain order in social units such as a pack. Social aggression is always directed at the individual's own kind. In the breeds that were created for police and military service, selection took place that expanded the direction of social aggression to also included the dog's adopted kind, humans. As an example of contrast, in the dog fighting breeds, selection took place to ensure that the social aggression would not include humans.
Let me give you a couple of other reasons why I hold this view. In virtually all older texts describing the police service dog breeds a few points were always made. They were that the dogs show mistrust and aggression against strangers and that they are very devoted and loyal with the family and very loving with children. To me this combination of qualities stem from a very strong closed pack oriented social behavior. That means loyalty and devotion to members in the pack and aggression against all outsiders, even those belonging to the same species.
This form of aggression is not very common in our dogs anymore, because many people find it to be socially unacceptable. Dogs today are supposed to be social and to a certain degree friendly. And while I see nothing wrong with a social dog, I personally also see nothing wrong with a socially aggressive dog. These dogs are not unpredictable menaces to society or vicious animals. They simply have inborn motivations that include this form of aggression. Social aggression is a trainable trait, meaning it can be directed and controlled. Naturally that requires the right handler so that accidents are prevented.
Socially aggressive dogs have an urge to be aggressive towards strangers. This can be controlled and the dog can be taught to tolerate strangers. However, the dog will not become a social or friendly dog with strangers, no matter what type of behavior modification is attempted. The only way this urge to confront a stranger aggressively when not under control would go away is if the stranger meets the confrontation and social order is established. This happens either if the person can subdue the dog and subordinate him or if the person unequivocally submits to the dog. (At that point the person is no longer a stranger but an integrated pack member).
The trend in breeding has been to breed dogs who do not have social aggression. And that may be what many people want. The point I would like to make is that social aggression is nothing that should be made out to be something evil. It is a valuable trait in dogs that are in the right hands. Such dogs do demand a high degree of responsibility and vigilance on the part of the handler. Socially aggressive dogs who are also dominant are difficult to handle and to train and should be in the hands of experts.
Armin Winkler
This is an example of temperament dilution in the breed as this trait has all but been bred out of the GSD because misinformed people including many breeders think the trait is a temperament fault, when in reality, as the author notes, social aggression is a valuable trait in the right hands for the right job. What you mainly see in today's dogs is defensive aggression which is not a part of social aggression. Such dogs, if ever found, would have to be in the hands of a skilled handler and as mentioned, the trait was commonly selected for in police and military dogs in the past when the breed was stronger. Such dogs are not pets per se. Look how the BH would make it difficult for a dog with social aggression to pass, although it could be trained, it is self defeating for such a dog. The other reason IGP has been watered down is to increase participation which involves many people who only want a dog playing a game.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip Blasiole said:


> *Social aggression*
> Social aggression is the only type of aggression that can be categorized as active aggression. Even though the term active aggression is used frequently, it really only applies here. The reason social aggression is called active aggression is because it really does not require any specific action as a trigger stimulus. Social aggression serves two purposes of biological significance. One is ensuring the even distribution of a species across a given territory by repelling equally strong individuals. And the other is to establish and maintain order in social units such as a pack. Social aggression is always directed at the individual's own kind. In the breeds that were created for police and military service, selection took place that expanded the direction of social aggression to also included the dog's adopted kind, humans. As an example of contrast, in the dog fighting breeds, selection took place to ensure that the social aggression would not include humans.
> Let me give you a couple of other reasons why I hold this view. In virtually all older texts describing the police service dog breeds a few points were always made. They were that the dogs show mistrust and aggression against strangers and that they are very devoted and loyal with the family and very loving with children. To me this combination of qualities stem from a very strong closed pack oriented social behavior. That means loyalty and devotion to members in the pack and aggression against all outsiders, even those belonging to the same species.
> This form of aggression is not very common in our dogs anymore, because many people find it to be socially unacceptable. Dogs today are supposed to be social and to a certain degree friendly. And while I see nothing wrong with a social dog, I personally also see nothing wrong with a socially aggressive dog. These dogs are not unpredictable menaces to society or vicious animals. They simply have inborn motivations that include this form of aggression. Social aggression is a trainable trait, meaning it can be directed and controlled. Naturally that requires the right handler so that accidents are prevented.
> Socially aggressive dogs have an urge to be aggressive towards strangers. This can be controlled and the dog can be taught to tolerate strangers. However, the dog will not become a social or friendly dog with strangers, no matter what type of behavior modification is attempted. The only way this urge to confront a stranger aggressively when not under control would go away is if the stranger meets the confrontation and social order is established. This happens either if the person can subdue the dog and subordinate him or if the person unequivocally submits to the dog. (At that point the person is no longer a stranger but an integrated pack member).
> The trend in breeding has been to breed dogs who do not have social aggression. And that may be what many people want. The point I would like to make is that social aggression is nothing that should be made out to be something evil. It is a valuable trait in dogs that are in the right hands. Such dogs do demand a high degree of responsibility and vigilance on the part of the handler. Socially aggressive dogs who are also dominant are difficult to handle and to train and should be in the hands of experts.
> Armin Winkler
> This is an example of temperament dilution in the breed as this trait has all but been bred out of the GSD because misinformed people including many breeders think the trait is a temperament fault, when in reality, as the author notes, social aggression is a valuable trait in the right hands for the right job. What you mainly see in today's dogs is defensive aggression which is not a part of social aggression. Such dogs, if ever found, would have to be in the hands of a skilled handler and as mentioned, the trait was commonly selected for in police and military dogs in the past when the breed was stronger. Such dogs are not pets per se. Look how the BH would make it difficult for a dog with social aggression to pass, although it could be trained, it is self defeating for such a dog. The other reason IGP has been watered down is to increase participation which involves many people who only want a dog playing a game.


Very well said and spot on.


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## Chip Blasiole

Here is a link to a KNPV stud dog competition. It is in Dutch but has English captions. The dog culture of KNPV is so much different than that of IGP and the type of dogs that come out of the program are so much more suited for real work. They are the type of dogs the majority of IGP competitors could not handle. Even in Holland, the trend has been to breed away from dogs with social aggression, but I think and some say that pendulum is beginning to swing the other way. Less aggressive dogs were in demand as the "war on terror" wound down, but social strife is clearly on the rise. Regardless, the good KNPV dogs have so much drive, social aggression is not really needed. The stud dog competition is about a dog proving that he is breed worthy. No conformation concerns, breed standard concerns, papers, etc. I would compete in the American version of KNPV, American Politiehund Association, but I found a very good PSA club minutes from from my house. PSA is challenging, but is best as selecting for dogs that will do well at PSA more so than real work.


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## Chip Blasiole

Thus there is a clear differentiation between the philosophy, practice and administration of the KNPV, primarily a police training and certification program not really a sport in the conventional sense, and the other Euro programs which have been much more sport oriented for decades. Unfortunately, under Euro social and political pressure, over many years there has been a strong tendency for these dog sports to evolve more into play sports rather than programs which seriously translate into a test of police or military service suitability. By this I mean rule changes precluding the use of the stick to test the dog, lowered heights and configurations for jumping exercises accommodate less athletic dogs and much less emphasis on courage and aggression in favor of obedience style points.
This is much more of a problem in IPO, the watered down FCI program replacing Schutzhund, than either of the major ring programs, which have on the whole held the line much better. Belgian ring since 1963 has not been under FCI auspices or control and thus much more able to maintain their integrity. While French ring comes under the French FCI national organization, they seem to have maintained control of their program much more than in the case of IPO, which has been increasingly subject to show and pet breeder tinkering and the influence of soft – that is green – political influence. Although I am not especially knowledgeable of the dynamics and politics of the French canine world, my impression is that the French in all aspects of life have an admirable tendency to pay much less attention to outside opinions and pressure and that this trickles down to the ring people to give them a lot more latitude and control, allowing them to maintain the integrity of their program.
Jim Engel, Marengo © Copyright April 16, 2016


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## berno von der seeweise

speaking of engle: http://www.angelplace.net/Book/PoliceDogBook.pdf

several interesting thuringian references therein


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## Steve Strom

Jax08 said:


> There seems to be a ton of opinions on titling, soo....
> 
> Just curious - how many on this thread have actually titled a dog in IPO/IGP or PSA. As a side note, since a PSA3 is so hard to achieve, a PSA1 would be the criteria along with a minimum of IPO/IGP1.
> 
> Purposely omitting @David Winners who I know has a large amount of practical experience with working dogs.
> 
> No opinions please. Just post if you've titled a dog in one of these sports.
> 
> Me: 2 dogs.
> Seger - IPO3, Regionals. Retired for health issues.
> Faren - BH earned last weekend.


First Rott, titled in herding and carting, showed in conformation, a couple of legs in obedience, but quit and never finished.
2nd Rott, showed in conformation, started AKC obedience, stumbled into Schutzhund. Did a BH, failed protection and tracking, so did OB's.
2nd Shepherd, BH, couldn't pass protection, did OB's with him.
Doc, BH, and IPO3.


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## berno von der seeweise

I'm curious, and you're probably the man to ask, did any pohranicni straze rott lines get exported to usa?


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## Chip Blasiole

I don’t think there were any zPS rotts.


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## berno von der seeweise

there was at least one z ps rott line, went back to dvora. 

may have been more? I don't know?


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## berno von der seeweise

alright, so since we are down here in the breeding forums, this is an interesting study: *z ps rott link*

I'd heard tell of those things but never looked into it. The only info I'm able to find online published from russia? Looks like z ps rott breeding program active appx 1962-1975. Looks like they all descend from dvora, but it looks like there was _more than one_ dvora supplying rott stock to z ps? edit: google translate says dvora means yard, so berno learned a new word today... in any event, _just to bring it all back around full circle_, it looks like roughly half the dogs involved were titled


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## Bearshandler

Jax08 said:


> There seems to be a ton of opinions on titling, soo....
> 
> Just curious - how many on this thread have actually titled a dog in IPO/IGP or PSA. As a side note, since a PSA3 is so hard to achieve, a PSA1 would be the criteria along with a minimum of IPO/IGP1.
> 
> Purposely omitting @David Winners who I know has a large amount of practical experience with working dogs.
> 
> No opinions please. Just post if you've titled a dog in one of these sports.
> 
> Me: 2 dogs.
> Seger - IPO3, Regionals. Retired for health issues.
> Faren - BH earned last weekend.


I started working in the sport venue two years ago. I’ve been training and working with dogs more seriously for 15 years, give it take.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> I started working in the sport venue two years ago. I’ve been training and working with dogs more seriously for 15 years, give it take.


You don't qualify if you haven't titled.


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## Bearshandler

🤣🤣 Is COVID a good excuse?


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You don't qualify if you haven't titled.


I don't think I've done anything that qualifies me as anything? I am always curious though, when people have a strong negative opinion of something, where that comes from. Not meaning Bearshandler in that.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> I don't think I've done anything that qualifies me as anything? I am always curious though, when people have a strong negative opinion of something, where that comes from. Not meaning Bearshandler in that.


You weren't the one demanding credentials. 

I can only speak for myself but I have a friend that titled in PSA... he can't wait to get him one of those defensive dogs next time around... you know the kind... they come flying through the air from 10 feet away. 

Then there is the friend titling dog three in IGP. Ya' know... dog three won't take an unfair correction... See? If another dog takes a swipe at him... he won't back down... 

Just my opinion... titles don't show me what I want to see... and I understand the distinction between training and titling. Titles don't always say much about the trainer/handler either... at least not something always good.

Always propers and due respect to you Steve.. but sometimes the rest... perhaps just a bunch of chest thumpers?


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## Steve Strom

I don't think its chest thumping, its when things are stated so absolutely and contrary to what you've been doing and seeing, I like to have an idea of where that comes from. An opinion from reading or being told, watching videos ? What led to that perception? I'm not trying to shut down any opinions or posts, I think someones experience gives me info to understand why they think what they do.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> I don't think its chest thumping, its when things are stated so absolutely and contrary to what you've been doing and seeing, I like to have an idea of where that comes from. An opinion from reading or being told, watching videos ? What led to that perception? I'm not trying to shut down any opinions or posts, I think someones experience gives me info to understand why they think what they do.


I think I clearly explained my opinions on two people that I know personally who have titled and some of the knowledge that they walked away with for their efforts. Some people don't feel compelled to name names. Their words are enough, at least for me.

There is not much more to be said... that is nothing that although honest.. would risk a banning for me.

I stand by my comment. One insinuation against another...


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## berno von der seeweise

I just want to go on record, nothing but respect for the titles here; those of _my own invention_ not withstanding  

from a purely personal perspective, re; gsd x igp, I like to see a gsd evaluated on a bitearm, if only for the sake of the tradition. Again, purely a matter of personal taste. I like gorgonzola, too; but it's ok if nobody else does. More for me.

but it struck me, and perhaps someone more knowledgeable will be kind enough to enlighten me, that perhaps psa is at least _somewhat akin_ to knpv?


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## David Winners

The definition of good dog varies wildly. Everything is subjective, and subject to the experiences that formed the person's opinion and the intended purpose for the dog.

What I don't really approve of is someone stating inexperienced opinions as facts. People who have never worked a dog talking like they somehow should know what a working dog should be. Working a dog is far different than watching a video or reading a book. Living with that dog is another matter entirely.


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## WIBackpacker

Title “resumes” aren’t everything, but they do offer some insight on Internet forums. 

Disclaimer: the following is NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR:

After meeting more than a few people, in person, after reading their internet posts..... some skepticism or wariness over armchair quarterbacking isn’t out of line. JMHO.

I don’t think it’s rude to ask for anyone’s experience. Everyone is free to share (or not). This forum stays as anonymous as each poster chooses it to be.


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## Jax08

Bearshandler said:


> 🤣🤣 Is COVID a good excuse?


No, Sir. I just put a BH on my girl last weekend. Suck it up and take the field!


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## MineAreWorkingline

That's a whole other can of worms, David.


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## Jax08

WIBackpacker said:


> Title “resumes” aren’t everything, but they do offer some insight on Internet forums.
> 
> Disclaimer: the following is NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR:
> 
> After meeting more than a few people, in person, after reading their internet posts..... some skepticism or wariness over armchair quarterbacking isn’t out of line. JMHO.
> 
> I don’t think it’s rude to ask for anyone’s experience. Everyone is free to share (or not). This forum stays as anonymous as each poster chooses it to be.



And it seems super relevant to the topic of "why is it necessary to some to title a dog". If you haven't titled one, then you most probably won't think it's necessary. If you have, then you understand the process and what it shows of the dog.

Seems silly for anyone to object to my question, or get their panties twisted because I set criteria in my question. Nobody is twisting anyone's arm to answer.


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## Steve Strom

Yeah, thats a good point. I kinda lost track of the original question.


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## Jax08

David Winners said:


> The definition of good dog varies wildly. Everything is subjective, and subject to the experiences that formed the person's opinion and the intended purpose for the dog.
> 
> What I don't really approve of is someone stating inexperienced opinions as facts. People who have never worked a dog talking like they somehow should know what a working dog should be. Working a dog is far different than watching a video or reading a book. Living with that dog is another matter entirely.


I've been fortunate to work with some really good helpers. The one that put the foundation on Faren is an IGP helper, PSA Decoy and a K9 officer. I'm not sure if he was a k9 handler when in the military or not. It's so interesting to see the different criteria each "discipline" for lack of a better word looks for. I feel that he allows Faren to display more fight because of his experience in each and is very adept at teaching her to bring the fight vs be reactive. We've done a little to transfer Seger over to PSA and to watch him figure it out vs the "stay calm on the sleeve" of IPO is pretty cool.


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## Bearshandler

Jax08 said:


> No, Sir. I just put a BH on my girl last weekend. Suck it up and take the field!


December 6th


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## Nscullin

David Winners said:


> The definition of good dog varies wildly. Everything is subjective, and subject to the experiences that formed the person's opinion and the intended purpose for the dog.
> 
> What I don't really approve of is someone stating inexperienced opinions as facts. People who have never worked a dog talking like they somehow should know what a working dog should be. Working a dog is far different than watching a video or reading a book. Living with that dog is another matter entirely.


I think this is everything. A good dog for one may be a nightmare for the other. A “good dog” is the kind of dog the owner wants. Some may want a prey monster. Some a house pet. Some a sport prospect. Some a street ready dog. Depends on the task at hand and what the owners purpose for the dog is. The one thing a good dog is, that I think we can all agree is HEALTHY and free of genetic conditions (hip dysplasia, EPI, allergies) that plague the dog his/her entire life. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jax08

Bearshandler said:


> December 6th


Good luck!!!!  It's hard this year to find a trial. We were on edge right up until the Tuesday before. Cases up, judge for a state that would have been put on a quarantine list except it neighbors the state of the trial. It was nerve wracking!


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## Bearshandler

Jax08 said:


> Good luck!!!!  It's hard this year to find a trial. We were on edge right up until the Tuesday before. Cases up, judge for a state that would have been put on a quarantine list except it neighbors the state of the trial. It was nerve wracking!


I hope it works out. I can’t travel currently, so I’ll be out of luck for a while if not.


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## Jax08

Bearshandler said:


> I hope it works out. I can’t travel currently, so I’ll be out of luck for a while if not.


I hope so too. I feel ya. It's hard to put in all that work and then no trials. My trial was in NYS, in a current hot spot, but I live close so still the best option as all the other ones would be an overnight stay. If I stay in a hotel then I have to quarantine for 2 weeks per work regulations. Not usually a big deal because I've been home since March but there is always that job that pops up that means I have to go into the field. I figured if it was canceled, I would just continue training and hit them in the spring as they came available.


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## berno von der seeweise

Nscullin said:


> I think this is everything. A good dog for one may be a nightmare for the other. A “good dog” is the kind of dog the owner wants. Some may want a prey monster. Some a house pet. Some a sport prospect. Some a street ready dog. Depends on the task at hand and what the owners purpose for the dog is. The one thing a good dog is, that I think we can all agree is HEALTHY and free of genetic conditions (hip dysplasia, EPI, allergies) that plague the dog his/her entire life.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I don't know about a "monster" but make mine with serviceable prey, please. Gimme some ball drive. A little one that likes to chase and bite after the toys. Easy to train. I'm not saying that's what anyone else needs. That's just what works for me. My level of expertise, if you will


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## Chip Blasiole

Berno,
About the only thing that KNPV has in common with PSA is that they are both suit sports and they both target the bicep, tricep and the leg. Dogs that I have seen started in KNPV or who had a PH1 and were imported and started in PSA have a hard if not impossible time competing in PSA because there is so much control required in PSA and so little required in KNPV. Remember that KNPV is a way to select for police dogs, the the training is very heavy handed, the obedience is very imprecise, and bitework is done in a way to bring out the most drive whereas in PSA, there has to be a ton of control in all aspects of bitework or your dog will never title. The value of KNPV is that the harsh training washes out all but the strongest dogs and what you see is more about the dog than the training. PSA probably tests a dog’s environmental nerves more than most sports excluding the severe compulsion of KNPV culture.


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## Roscoe618

With my 3rd GSD in the 80's, I created my own title. Our close friend (a pro ring sport decoy in France) came to visit us and stayed for 2 years. In that time, he helped me train my imported WL gsd from 6 months to almost 3 years old. By the time he was 3, he had a very good Send out, very good Out, perfect recall, a perfect non-focused heel, a down/stay that lasted hours in a busy train station, and had to learn to stay with me on my mountain bike and dirt bike. Yes, I made him stay with me on a dirtbike almost daily from the age of 3 until his last week on earth at age 12. He never saw a leash from after age 3. My mom could have a bbq with 50 people and he was loose around them. Yet, he did not like strangers touching him. So he wore a vest all his life that said Do Not Pet. Yes, he was still allowed to walk in and out of the party because doing his job of looking out after the family kept him calm. That was the Title he got, and that is a title I hope my current 12 month old earns as well.
But to get to that level was a lot of work with a profesional decoy/handler. He taught me a lot more than he had to teach my dog. But once he synced us together, I took that dog anywhere I wanted to off leash and I did for the last 9 years of his life.
But even with all that, I am pretty sure he would have scored very low in any of the dog sports at the time. But I didn't care because I gave him his own all around title. During one of our airport visits to pick up my dad in France (my dog had a lot of traveling miles to France), a patrol k9 officer came over and asked it I would kindly move away with my dog because he was distracting the k9 too much.
Oh yeah, here is the best part....on leash he was reactive to dogs if i let him. Off leash, we can run through a pack of dogs in the wood when staying with me on my mountain bike without even caring they were there.
Having said all this, to go watch a handler work a dog in ring is a jaw dropping....it like poetry in motion.
Breeder or not, if anyone can commit the time and energy to title their it has to be a huge high. And I am sure that high crosses over to the everyday life of the dog outside the ring. That level of work will unfortunately never be experienced with the average gsd owner. Without our decoy friend living with us for over 2 years, there is no way I would have had that type of quality life with my GSD...no way.


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## LuvShepherds

Roscoe618 said:


> With my 3rd GSD in the 80's, I created my own title. Our close friend (a pro ring sport decoy in France) came to visit us and stayed for 2 years. In that time, he helped me train my imported WL gsd from 6 months to almost 3 years old. By the time he was 3, he had a very good Send out, very good Out, perfect recall, a perfect non-focused heel, a down/stay that lasted hours in a busy train station, and had to learn to stay with me on my mountain bike and dirt bike. Yes, I made him stay with me on a dirtbike almost daily from the age of 3 until his last week on earth at age 12. He never saw a leash from after age 3. My mom could have a bbq with 50 people and he was loose around them. Yet, he did not like strangers touching him. So he wore a vest all his life that said Do Not Pet. Yes, he was still allowed to walk in and out of the party because doing his job of looking out after the family kept him calm. That was the Title he got, and that is a title I hope my current 12 month old earns as well.
> But to get to that level was a lot of work with a profesional decoy/handler. He taught me a lot more than he had to teach my dog. But once he synced us together, I took that dog anywhere I wanted to off leash and I did for the last 9 years of his life.
> But even with all that, I am pretty sure he would have scored very low in any of the dog sports at the time. But I didn't care because I gave him his own all around title. During one of our airport visits to pick up my dad in France (my dog had a lot of traveling miles to France), a patrol k9 officer came over and asked it I would kindly move away with my dog because he was distracting the k9 too much.
> Oh yeah, here is the best part....on leash he was reactive to dogs if i let him. Off leash, we can run through a pack of dogs in the wood when staying with me on my mountain bike without even caring they were there.
> Having said all this, to go watch a handler work a dog in ring is a jaw dropping....it like poetry in motion.
> Breeder or not, if anyone can commit the time and energy to title their it has to be a huge high. And I am sure that high crosses over to the everyday life of the dog outside the ring. That level of work will unfortunately never be experienced with the average gsd owner. Without our decoy friend living with us for over 2 years, there is no way I would have had that type of quality life with my GSD...no way.


This is an excellent example of what has bothered me about the assertions made in this thread. Ideally, every dog capable of it could be titled and then we would know if the dog is up to the task. But practically, very few can follow a title through to completion. I could not even get my dog through a full course of obedience before age 18 months due to pano. So I got a private trainer and did obedience, advance work, scentwork and other valuable and fun training on my own with the trainer and in small group classes. By the time I could join a club, if I could find one, I didn’t want to. Where does someone who trains a dog extensively but does not title fit into the framework defined here?

There are many good reasons why owners don’t title their dogs.
1. Availability of clubs and distance - driving long distances is admirable but locations and times can be impossible to get to. I found one club that met late at night on a weeknight which did not work my work schedule at the time, and it was a long drive. Another club was about the same distance but located in a dangerous part of a dangerous city, and I was not going there for any reason.
2. Cost of joining a club and staying through titling
3. Time involved - I had other obligations that took up much of my free time as well.
4. Age and health of the owners - I met a woman locally who was wheelchair bound who trained her German Shepherd as best she could, but for some tasks, had to pay someone else to train and handle the dog. Others don’t have the stamina to train a dog fully, although they can still handle their dogs on their own. Also, age. By the time people have the free time to train, they might not be young enough to do so.

I am sure there are other reasons i haven’t thought of.


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## Steve Strom

LuvShepherds said:


> By the time I could join a club, if I could find one, I didn’t want to. Where does someone who trains a dog extensively but does not title fit into the framework defined here?


That's not the point. There's certain benefits and value to titling dogs under impartial 3rd parties when it comes to maintaining pure bred dogs. Everyone should enjoy their dogs doing whatever they want.


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## LuvShepherds

Steve Strom said:


> That's not the point. There's certain benefits and value to titling dogs under impartial 3rd parties when it comes to maintaining pure bred dogs. Everyone should enjoy their dogs doing whatever they want.


Are we reading the same thread? You and I usually agree on a lot of topics here, but I read in at least one post, that only those who title their dogs are entitled to voice expertise. I agree everyone should enjoy their dogs doing whatever they want to do, somewhat. At the same time, they should learn to enjoy what the dog NEEDS to do, which isn’t always what the owner WANTS to do. There are days during the lockdown when I don’t want to go anywhere and exercise. I just want to stay home and veg. But my dogs need exercise whether I want to or not. All German Shepherds need to do something that engages their minds and bodies.


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## Jax08

ok. Just to make something clear, no where did I "demand" resumes or only say that people who titled their dogs are entitled to voice expertise. that is ridiculous. I asked, out of curiosity, how many people had titled dogs and set criteria (a fairly low criteria) since the thread is "why is it so necessary to some to title a dog" and the question is totally relevant to the topic.

People should be able to ask questions relevant to a thread without everyone being so **** nasty about it. I'm so sick of people. By all means...everyone gets a participation ribbon. Everyone that's titled a dog, go back to watching Netflix! You aren't wanted here.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Nasty?


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## dogma13

LuvShepherds said:


> Are we reading the same thread? You and I usually agree on a lot of topics here, but I read in at least one post, that only those who title their dogs are entitled to voice expertise. I agree everyone should enjoy their dogs doing whatever they want to do, somewhat. At the same time, they should learn to enjoy what the dog NEEDS to do, which isn’t always what the owner WANTS to do. There are days during the lockdown when I don’t want to go anywhere and exercise. I just want to stay home and veg. But my dogs need exercise whether I want to or not. All German Shepherds need to do something that engages their minds and bodies.


I think it was meant that to have an opinion on titling in the various sports listed here you should have actually been involved in the sports.Not just read about it then declare this or that sport is useless.


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## MineAreWorkingline

What qualifies who to quantify what sports? What about venues that don't have titles?


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## Steve Strom

LuvShepherds said:


> Are we reading the same thread? You and I usually agree on a lot of topics here, but I read in at least one post, that only those who title their dogs are entitled to voice expertise. I agree everyone should enjoy their dogs doing whatever they want to do, somewhat. At the same time, they should learn to enjoy what the dog NEEDS to do, which isn’t always what the owner WANTS to do. There are days during the lockdown when I don’t want to go anywhere and exercise. I just want to stay home and veg. But my dogs need exercise whether I want to or not. All German Shepherds need to do something that engages their minds and bodies.


Its not any kind of personal challenge or expertise. Its about different opinions and where they come from, specific to this topic. You very well could be a much better trainer, handler, anything then me.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Its not any kind of personal challenge or expertise. Its about different opinions and where they come from, specific to this topic. You very well could be a much better trainer, handler, anything then me.


I agree with LuvShepherds, we aren't all reading the same thread... or comment...


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## Bearshandler

Which comment are we referring too? I took @Jax08 comment as a gauge of people’s experience in the sports being discussed here, which is a factor when they talk about what goes into them.


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## LuvShepherds

Steve Strom said:


> You very well could be a much better trainer, handler, anything then me.


I doubt that.

We all learn from different experiences. I would have enjoyed titling a dog back when it was called Schutzhund, but didn’t get the chance because life got in the way. Now it doesn’t interest me the way it used to. But I’ve talked to many people, I have read a lot and I watched videos. Some of what I learned was from reading posts by you and by Jax and by others here in the years I’ve been a member. It’s not the same as being in the field earning a BH or tracking, but I do know more than a newbie. I’m starting to feel like I can’t post on the topic because my opinions aren’t valid, so I don’t. I think others feel the same way.


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## dogma13

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What qualifies who to quantify what sports? What about venues that don't have titles?


Everyone is entitled to an opinion and are entitled to share it.Real experience and opinion are are not the same of course.A person with a dog that helps him round up livestock and move them from one pasture to the next is qualified to enlighten me about the process.I in turn would form an opinion which I could share, but I am not the least bit qualified. It's hearsay.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I absolutely agree, too bad herding titles weren't included... or real work...


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## Nscullin

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I absolutely agree, too bad herding titles weren't included... or real work...


“Real work” is another interesting one. To some sports are real work. They’re very real work for the dog and handler. 


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## MineAreWorkingline

Everyone is entitled to their opinion... or at least they should be...


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## dogma13

Nscullin said:


> “Real work” is another interesting one. To some sports are real work. They’re very real work for the dog and handler.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely! It's all hard work.


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## Thecowboysgirl

My dogs have the following titles. They don't fall under the sports Jax asked about. But whatever. This is what we have done to date: I had really hoped to finally try for TDX this year, but there was only one test between the few states who border each other here and I believe there were 17 entrants for 4 tracks and we entered but did not make the draw. Our club cancelled spring and fall TDX this year.

Current GSD
AKC: PCD, TD2, TKI, CGC
ASCA: BN, RAX, high scoring other breed x5
WCRL: L1 AOE, L2 AOE, L3 AOE, ARCHX
CDSP- CD-C
Dockdogs- Dock Senior
NADD 3 qualifying jumps but couldn't finish title due to COVID 
He is also task trained for service work but I don't use him in places of public accommodation.

Current Lab 
Working Service Dog, Owner trained
AKC CGC, TKN
ASCA RNX
CDSP- SN-C
Some dockdogs qualifying jumps but no title yet.

Past GSD
Working Service Dog- approx 10 years of service. Owner trained but with team certification through a service dog org including a day long public access test in Boston with head trainer of that org. 
AKC: TKA, CGC
WCRL: RLVX


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## Chip Blasiole

IMO, there are a lot of training groups/clubs with faulty training. Traveling two hours or more to train really takes the fun out of training and it becomes a chore. It’s different in Europe. Every dog that has visited our club for the past three years except one has had foundation issues and I haven’t seen one that didn’t improve after coming. We are very fortunate to have a great coach and decoy along with his wife who is also a great trainer. The one person who came with a dog without training issues actually put on a seminar and I have never seen such an impressively trained dog. I believe the dog had an IGP3 and the only problem was introducing the dog to the suit because a sleeve creates a different mindset and the handler didn’t have access to a good suit decoy. I was fortunate and hit the jackpot with the pup I got and a top level trainer ten minutes from my house. It was like it was meant to be. A lot of dogs with good genetics for sport don’t get the training to maximize their genetic potential. I feel very fortunate.


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## berno von der seeweise

looks to me like you have a WAY above avg gsd, too, Chip

"broke the clatter stick!" 










if there's better genetics around, I'd sure like a look at 'em

because that is one . formidable .looking gsd, right there...


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## CatMan900

Im actually looking into getting another puppy right now and I really require the parents to have IPO titling. Only because it shows me there is a very high chance this puppy will be trainable, protective, and very "German-shepherd like".

Every breeder is going to tell you their dogs are the best and yada yada yada. But titling is more than just their word. I searched very long and very hard when getting my first dog and I found so many breeders who really have no idea what they're doing. I even ran into a lady who told me she was trying to create a new breed by breeding a German shepherd with some other thing (I forget) and making some huge 150lb+ abomination.

It doesn't mean a dog with no titles is a bad dog. Its just a barometer. Someone can tell me their dog is capable of being a k9 and all this stuff but how do you know unless the parents were or unless they title their dog. The biggest thing FOR ME is if I look at your dogs pedigree and they don't have any IPO titles for many many generations I start to wonder if your dog is just a golden retriever mentally


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## Chip Blasiole

A dog having a sport title has no correlation to his capacity to become a police dog except in KNPV. Police dogs do not necessarily produce dogs with the genetics to become police dogs. A dog can be great at something but not a producer.


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