# Influencial female/mother lines(working lines)....



## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

People are always talking about the top studs(past & present) & those that tend produce consistent quality. 
I'd like to get your opinions on which females seem to be producing strong, quality offspring. Which (past) mother lines still seem to be influencing the working lines today?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In the past females from the lines of Busecker-Schloss, Tiekerhook, Kirschental, Haus Himpel, did some fine breeding based on strong females.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

There are certainly some bitches that are widely recognized as having made great contributions. For example, in the working lines:

Afra Stoppenberger Land

Askia Froschgraben

Umsa Bungalow

One of the problems of looking at motherlines is that all of the analysis tools seem to track only the fatherlines.


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

Uniballer,
That is the problem I am running into. I've been trying to do more research & learn more about the influence from the mother lines. It's hard to find much info to go on. Most databases track progeny of the stud, but not always of the female.....
For example; my male has quite a few Karthago's in his pedigree. I haven't been able to find much info on the females (Randa & Mika). Though info on the males is easy to find. He also has couple Bungalow females as well (Kad & Umsa). 
Maybe it has to do with the fact that a good stud can have upwards of 60+ progeny, while even a great female will usually have less than 30.


Cliff, 
In your opinion do those same lines seem to be producing the same consistant quality they were in the past?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Tiekerhook does, the other lines are older and really aren't in the arena today like in the past. Though it is harder to track the females in terms of information...it is the key to breeding. But one of the fallacies of breeding is that the strongest, most titled female is likely to be best producer. This is often not the case and many of the harder females are not really good mothers. I beleive it really takes a "click" of genetics to get a good producing female line. And again in producing females nerves is everything.JMO


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

Cliff, 
I agree with you that the top working/sport female is not always going to be the best producer or mother. It's the same with the males in that aspect. Like does not always beget like...
I am of the belief that the female/mother lines has a bigger percent of impact in a breeding or a litter than the stud/male lines. It's not a 50/50 gimme IMO.....
Are you seeing any trends in current mother lines, that are producing strong, consistant progeny?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

As Lloyd Brackett stated many years ago ... a kennel is only as good as it's brood bitches.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

northwoodsGSD said:


> Maybe it has to do with the fact that a good stud can have upwards of 60+ progeny, while even a great female will usually have less than 30.


I think you kind of hit the nail on the head here. A female isn't popping out babies the same way a stud is spreading his sperm around. A good stud can produce hundreds and hundreds of offspring, so it is much easier to see how consistently or inconsistently a male is producing rather than a female.

Also, I think the boys tend to get more attention as well just because of the ratio of males to females at top competitions.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

A good bitch, worth her weight in gold.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

The bitch is the seed bed. She has to have everything it takes to produce and nuture the seed. I'd rather have an outstanding brood bitch than a bitch with titles that can't birth puppies.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Actually the WinSIS database can be used to track the female lines. 

Another female that has influenced the breed in more modern times would be Deika v.d. Wannaer Höhen. 
V Deika von den Wannaer Höhen - German shepherd dog


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Deika is a very very good contemporary name as is I think Pia Akbar. The Wanner-Hohen (sp) kennel is producing some nice dogs in past ten years.


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> I think you kind of hit the nail on the head here. A female isn't popping out babies the same way a stud is spreading his sperm around. A good stud can produce hundreds and hundreds of offspring, so it is much easier to see how consistently or inconsistently a male is producing rather than a female.
> 
> Also, I think the boys tend to get more attention as well just because of the ratio of males to females at top competitions.


 
Funny thing, this made me think of a couple of humans I know!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Doc said:


> The bitch is the seed bed. She has to have everything it takes to produce and nuture the seed. I'd rather have an outstanding brood bitch than a bitch with titles that can't birth puppies.


I've always heard that it never fails.  Have an outstanding SchH3 FH bitch with OFA excellent hips, great elbows, and she can't reproduce to save her life. 

Mutt in a closet will whelp 13 puppies with no prenatal care, no help, and raise them all to live.

Sometimes working at the school I do I feel like it's the same with humans.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

lhczth said:


> Actually the WinSIS database can be used to track the female lines.


The last time I looked at the WinSIS database (quite a while ago) it *said* it could trace the female lines, but it actually traced the dams fatherline. Has this changed so that you can actually trace the motherlines instead if you want?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Does anyone have any information on *Hella vom Mutzbach?*

I am seeing her pop up in some of the pedigrees that I am looking at. Haven't done all that much research on her yet, but am seeing her name come up more and more.

SG Hella vom Mutzbach - German shepherd dog


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You can trace both the sire line and the mother line in any dog. I can't remember when this was changed, but it has been this way for awhile.


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

Thanks for that info. I'll check the WinSIS database out.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

IMO really good strong bitches who can produce good females consistantly are not common in this country.....I think Lisa has based her program on a solid female and is going forward wtih females - I have 2 females who are super good producers - and am going into their second generations - Basha through Furious, Marsha Seck's Elsa (who has a super nice son in with an experienced nataional level cometitor) and now bringing Hexe into the breeding arena; and Kyra through Csabre - most breeders seem to import females bred, get a few litters from them to sell, and then get new females - Basha goes to the B litter Salztalblick -all strong females back for 5 generations - and that is what you need to look for - females who produced females who produce in turn...

Lee


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