# Cody's pedigree



## bcdudley (Sep 1, 2011)

This is my first GSD. Looking for comments on what kind of dog he will turn out to be and what type of training I should be heading towards. I am starting out with just engagement training now. It looks like he has a very strong line on one side, but not the other. I don't know enough to say that for sure though. 

The parents:

Ezra von der burg Rubin - German Shepherd Dog

& 

Loujuan's Man in Black - German Shepherd Dog


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The mother's side is German Show lines, the sire's side American show/pet lines. 

Can't go wrong with engagement training. Make sure you socialize you new baby well, and aim at having a lot of fun.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Someone pleeeease go over the genetics of the coat colors on the sire's side?? What colors (technically) are Man in Black and his sire, and what produces what? and what color(s) would Man in Black throw? Some day maybe all that will sink in....I can handle the normal colors OK but can't wrap my brain around this one!

and to the OP, what color is your pup?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yup. Kind of a hodgepodge. Mother is all German Show lines. The father is American/UKC show lines on his sire's side, and show/pet lines on his mother's. Looks like your puppy's grandfather is a liver. You're probably looking at a lower drive, active pet/companion. I'd be on the lookout for nerve issues from his sire's side, since nerves are often the first thing to go if you're not actively screening for them. This could manifest as fear aggression or shyness. I don't know anything specific about the sire's lines, but fearfulness and nerves are the thing I often see in more randomly bred dogs. Or his nerves could be great. 



DunRingill said:


> Someone pleeeease go over the genetics of the coat colors on the sire's side?? What colors (technically) are Man in Black and his sire,


Man in Black is a bicolor; his sire is black and liver. I'm thinking he could throw anything depending on what he was bred to. He doesn't appear to have sable genes but could throw sable if he were bred to one since sable is dominant. He could throw black and tan, bicolor, white, or liver. We don't know what recessive genes he may be carrying for color.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I am confused (no surprise) I thought Ezra was a male name.
Either way, good luck. Don't count on genetics being entirely responsible
for how your dog will turn out. Count on yourself and how you work with him.
Pictures please.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Emoore said:


> Man in Black is a bicolor; his sire is black and liver. I'm thinking he could throw anything depending on what he was bred to. He doesn't appear to have sable genes but could throw sable if he were bred to one since sable is dominant. He could throw black and tan, bicolor, white, or liver. We don't know what recessive genes he may be carrying for color.


OK so on the sire's side, granddad is a white and grandma is black and liver.....so how do you get a very dark bicolor (almost black!) from that? Not questioning the possibility, just saying I don't get it. I thought M-i-B might have been a very dark sable (looking at that first picture) but now I can see very dark bicolor. Hey for years all I had was standard black&tan saddle patterns, that's simple!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

DunRingill said:


> OK so on the sire's side, granddad is a white and grandma is black and liver.....so how do you get a very dark bicolor (almost black!) from that? Not questioning the possibility, just saying I don't get it. I thought M-i-B might have been a very dark sable (looking at that first picture) but now I can see very dark bicolor. Hey for years all I had was standard black&tan saddle patterns, that's simple!


White is a masking gene. So a white dog is actually a black or black and tan or bicolor or whatever dog, with an additional gene that masks their "true" color and makes them white instead. So if you breed a white to a nonwhite, you can get any color because you don't know what color the white is masking.

I did a bit of a search and MIB is owned by kennel Zwinger von Uber Land. They state he is a carrier for both white and liver. I honestly didn't know it was possible for a non-white, non-liver dog to carry both white and liver genes.


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## bcdudley (Sep 1, 2011)

Here is a picture of him yesterday. The breeder called him a black and red. Looks more tan to me. This was an accidental breeding. Normally Ezra is bred with a different male, but this time, the man in black got to her over a 8' fence. Some of the litter mates were all black. 3 were the same colors as Cody. The breeder has a web site, but I do not know if it is appropriate to post it.

I got him as a family pet only. I have no intention of showing him or doing any type of professional work with him. That being said, I would like to get him involved in some type of training and let him be all that he can be.

He does not seem to show any fear of anything so far. Yesterday, I was out working in the yard throwing some old lumber around. Every piece I threw would make a loud crash. He showed no reaction at all when they would crash. On the contrary, he was right in the middle of it.

The only time I have seen him a little scared was of a hair dryer after a bath and last night, my 6 yo daughter put a laundry basket over her head. He wasn't so much scared, but confused. He would bark at her and go up to investigate. Once he figured out it was her, he was back to his normal playful self. 

He does not seem to be an extremely high drive puppy like Endy I have seen in the Michael Ellis videos, but he does have his moments where he gets that way. He loves playing fetch and frequently carries a kong tennis ball around in his mouth wherever he goes.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Sounds like you've got a nice puppy! He's very cute.

By the way you linked to your entire photobucket account. Not sure if you meant to do that.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Hmmm. I'm actually questioning how a bicolor came out of that breeding since a liver has no black pigment. I'm not sure how the genetics work with livers, but to breed a liver to a white and end up with that kind of amazing bicolor pigmentation on a resulting dog seems odd to me....bicolors are rare enough as it is, but to find it in a showline with that cross?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm not up on judging conformation, but a pet peeve of mine are weak pasterns - usually a genetic fault, but sometimes due to poor nutrition and little exercise, so it can be improved on. 

One of the pictures of the sire's ancestors, great-grandfather, Chino II, has very weak pasterns in that picture. Weak pasterns can impact a dog's ability to move well, can limit endurance, and can cause pain and other issues with their feet. A dog with such week pasterns should never be bred - hoping it is not so much genetic and more so due to a lack of excercise, wich looking at the overall condition of Chino, could well be. 

So watch the pasterns on your pup, they will probably be fine since the rest of the pedigree is strong in that area and I only see the one example of poor pasterns, so hoping the small influence from that grandpsire will be overidden from the others. 

If your dog does have weak pasterns, it can be improved through nutrition and exercise.

Edited to add: Oh, just saw the pic of your little man - very cute, nice colour, and the pasterns seem fine to me. :thumbup:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

bcdudley said:


> Some of the litter mates were all black. 3 were the same colors as Cody.


I'm willing to bet they were bicolors, not black. At that age a bicolor pup would look all black with just a few brown hairs around the toes and anus. I'm not trying to argue or be rude, Dun asked about color and the odds of MIB throwing bicolor pups are much higher than solid black ones. It would be very odd to have blacks but no bicolors.


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## bcdudley (Sep 1, 2011)

Nope, I corrected it. Just meant to post the pic. Thanks.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Emoore said:


> White is a masking gene. So a white dog is actually a black or black and tan or bicolor or whatever dog, with an additional gene that masks their "true" color and makes them white instead. So if you breed a white to a nonwhite, you can get any color because you don't know what color the white is masking.


OK. Is the white masking gene a recessive, so if you breed a white to a non-white, you can only get white pups if the non-white carries (but doesn't show) that masking gene? 



> I did a bit of a search and MIB is owned by kennel Zwinger von Uber Land. They state he is a carrier for both white and liver. I honestly didn't know it was possible for a non-white, non-liver dog to carry both white and liver genes.


So I guess he's been used for breeding and has produced both whites and livers....otherwise how would you know for sure? ohhhh we're reaching the point here my head starts to hurt


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## bcdudley (Sep 1, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I'm willing to bet they were bicolors, not black. At that age a bicolor pup would look all black with just a few brown hairs around the toes and anus. I'm not trying to argue or be rude, Dun asked about color and the odds of MIB throwing bicolor pups are much higher than solid black ones. It would be very odd to have blacks but no bicolors.



I think they did have some white and brown around the toes. I was only there for about an hour, so my memory may not be great on that.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

DunRingill said:


> OK. Is the white masking gene a recessive, so if you breed a white to a non-white, you can only get white pups if the non-white carries (but doesn't show) that masking gene?


 I _believe_ (somebody please correct me on this) that it's incomplete dominance? So you can breed a white to a nonwhite with no white genes and get some white puppies and some colored puppies. But to get white out of a dog like MIB you'd have to breed him to either a white or a carrier? I think that's correct but somebody let me know if I'm wrong. 





DunRingill said:


> So I guess he's been used for breeding and has produced both whites and livers....otherwise how would you know for sure? ohhhh we're reaching the point here my head starts to hurt


You are probably correct.


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## bcdudley (Sep 1, 2011)

Here is what the breeder says about 'Mack" aka M-I-B.

"Mack" is an extreme bi-color with moderate balanced structure, very wide and deep chest and large bone structure. Excellent loving temperment, very easy to handle and live with. Sire has Several "Best Puppy" wins at WGSDCA Nationals ~ 2008. *Liver and white carrier. *


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> Hmmm. I'm actually questioning how a bicolor came out of that breeding since a liver has no black pigment. I'm not sure how the genetics work with livers, but to breed a liver to a white and end up with that kind of amazing bicolor pigmentation on a resulting dog seems odd to me....bicolors are rare enough as it is, but to find it in a showline with that cross?


OK.......so maybe I'm right to be confused! I have a bicolor here, and I know what colors are behind her and they are all DARK. Jago Lindenhalle, Mink, Ilja, lots of dark....so bi-color in the litter wasn't a surprise. But this, I'm surprised and confused.....but I only understand the genetics of coat color up to a point, and don't understand it nearly as well as some here


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Who knows? If they're not DNA testing, there could be a bicolor in the woodshed. I'd be interested to see Man In Black's littermates.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Emoore said:


> I _believe_ (somebody please correct me on this) that it's incomplete dominance? So you can breed a white to a nonwhite with no white genes and get some white puppies and some colored puppies. But to get white out of a dog like MIB you'd have to breed him to either a white or a carrier? I think that's correct but somebody let me know if I'm wrong.


OK....once we start with "incomplete dominance" that's where I get lost. Figure I'll understand it eventually if I keep working at it!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Yeah--it's definitely correct that white is a masking gene. But it also tends to drastically reduce the quality of pigment if a white GSD is bred back to a "colored" GSD (at least from what I've seen, but admittedly I have not studied the topic at length). I so really am at a loss how a true bicolor can come from a white and a liver...with the liver being back by even more poor pigment. 

I don't quite understand the genetics of a "true" bicolor....it's a rather hotly debated subject IMO. But I do know that I've never seen a bicolor result from a breeding like that.

But again...I'm not exactly "up" on WGSD, ASL, and "BYB" bred lines.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I'd be interested to see Man In Black's littermates.


Me too, but then again a lady can have more than one suitor.....


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Dam is of show lines. Your pup inherited black/tan from mom.

Dad is a BI color. His mom is a liver/BI. From mom he inherited her liver gene (not expressed) and either her BI or her black. Liver is a dilute that causes the black pigment and color to be faded to liver. 

His sire is white. From dad he inherited the white (not expressed) and either black or BI (it is masked by the white gene). 

Looking at your pup he carries black/tan from mom and either the BI or black from dad (I believe the former because of the amount of tan he already expresses). He also could have inherited the liver gene and/or the white gene. Your puppy can never produce sable unless bred to a sable. 

Looking at the mother it is highly unlikely that any of the puppies were black or bi-color in the litter. They could have been very darkly pigmented (blanket patterned) black/tans since many of those are very very dark as puppies.


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## bcdudley (Sep 1, 2011)

Thank you for all the comments. It was very interesting and informative. Certainly good info to have.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not think any of them could be black. The black gene has to be present on both sides. The dam can be black and tan but she would have to carry a black recessive. Looking at her pedigree, I do not see any black in three generations. If they are actually black, I do not think she can be the dam. 

I was hoping for a black out of Rush and Babs. Rush's sire was black, and Babs' dam had a black grandmother. But no luck. There was no way to know if Arwen carried the black recessive, and even less chance that Babs carried it. 

Someone let me know if I am wrong about that. Thanks.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I was wrong about the liver thing--I thought that once you got the liver dilution that you were more or less stuck with it. Apparently not, so it is possible to get a nice bicolor out of a liver-white pairing.

ETA: And obviously Lisa explained it nicely!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I had a couple of dogs bred like this once. They were not schutzhund prospects but made nice pets. I lucked out and they had no major health issues and the last of two lived until 13 years old.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Liver is a dilution factor that turns all black pigment to brown/liver. It is not on the same gene location as the sable/saddle/recessive black pattern.

Man in Black's mom is a "liver bicolor" -- so the pattern gene series would be the same as if she were a black bicolor dog, she just happens to also have 2 genes for liver, turning all her black hairs to brown. 

The white gene in GSDs is on yet another locus, so a white dog can have a full set of "pattern" genes--sable/saddle/recessive black -- but you can't see what pattern that dog might be because all the dogs fur is white instead of regular color. So MiB's dad could be a sable or a solid black dog, genetically--we just don't know because it's covered up with white on white so no clear pattern shows. 

White is another recessive, so the dog has to have 2 white alleles (one from mom, one from dad) to BE a white dog. 

So, man in black most likely got the bicolor pattern (which is really saddle with a melanistic modifier) from mom and the (solid/self color) recessive black gene from dad, and he got one liver gene from mom (and one non-liver from dad, which dominates, so the liver isn't expressed) and one white gene from dad (and one non-white from mom, so the white isn't expressed).

I wonder what would happen if a dog was homozygous for white and homozygous for liver.... I suspect the dog would be white with brown lips/eyerims/nose.


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I _believe_ (somebody please correct me on this) that it's incomplete dominance? So you can breed a white to a nonwhite with no white genes and get some white puppies and some colored puppies. But to get white out of a dog like MIB you'd have to breed him to either a white or a carrier? I think that's correct but somebody let me know if I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Incomplete dominance would be a blend of both dominant genes. I don't know much about dog color alleles but I'd assume that MIB would be heterozygous for the masking gene?


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## GSDGenes (Mar 9, 2006)

I've found that German mixed with American yields a dog that's easier for the average owner to deal with and live with than the German dog, but that tends to be "tougher" meaning a bit more pushy & dominant than total American dogs.



http://loujuangsd.net/

You can find out much more on the Regalwise dogs in your pedigree at these links:
http://www.hoflin.com/Online/WGS%20Museum/WGSMuseum.html
http://www.awsaclub.com/photo.htm

The owner of Regalwise is a stickler for physical and mental soundness in her dogs. Her main focus was (to my knowledge she isn't actively breeding at present time) to breed top quality whites. Her line is one of the most influential white shepherd bloodlines worldwide. She was instrumental in founding AWSA http://www.awsaclub.com/
and in getting whites recognized as a separate breed in the UKC 

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/WhiteShepherdRevisedOctober12008
http://www.unitedwhiteshepherdclub.org/

Sire of Loujan's Man in Black here:

Kerstone's Blue Collar Man,OFA Good H&E prelims, PennHIP .42/.42, BVA hips 4/4=8, OFA Cardiac
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.net/males/tank.htm

UKC Ch. REGALWISE ORION, HIC, OFA H&E
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.net/males/orion.htm

UKC CH REGALWISE GLORIANA, OFA
http://www.regalwise.com/females/Riana.html

I know for a fact that Regalwise Jeromeo who appears behind Man in Black's sire proved through breeding to colored dogs to be genetically solid black and that Tumbledown's Recidivist who also appears behind Man in Black's sire, was also proven to be genetically a solid black.

Many descendants of the Regalwise dogs in Man in Black's pedigree can be found by googling.



dam of Man in Black
Loujuan Anything But Ordinary 
Born 6/30/2007, PennHIP .48/.40 (at 7 mos), BVA Hips = 6/6 = 12, OFA Elbows = Normal
"Jada"
http://loujuangsd.net/photo3_1.html

Jada is liver & tan bicolor. Man in Black is genetically a solid black but like many other solid blacks, he has shadings of his genetic ground color showing through on his lower legs. 

The gene for black instead of liver is coming from Man in Black's white sire. The gene for White in the GSD is totally unrelated to the genes for agouti/sable, two-tone & solid black. The white gene acts as if you dropped a white sheet over a colored GSD, hiding the dog's genetic color & pattern. When a white dog is bred to a colored dog, the genetic color and pattern of the white dog reveals itself in colored progeny. 

From Loujuan's Man in Black it can be determined that his white sire carries the recessive gene for solid black. His dam carries the solid pattern gene as well & being that she is a liver, all her progeny would inherit her liver gene. 
So...
Man in Black carries the liver dilution gene and the white recessive gene. The odds of any one of his progeny inheriting his liver recessive is 50-50.
The odds of any one of his progeny inheriting his white recessive is 50-50.
Any one of his progeny could inherit one or both recessives or not inherit either of them. 

Mammoth G seems to primarily do business as Able K-9
Able K-9 Academy Working Dog Club
Able K-9 Academy German Shepherd Parents

Here are links to photos and pedigrees for dogs behind Loujuan's Man in Black's dam and other progeny of those dogs. It's frustrating that most of the dogs pictured are only listed by call name but some of those with pedigrees available are from the same dogs/lines. 

Chino II pic & ped---his sire & dam are reversed in the pedigree too btw.
http://www.ablek9.com/CHINO II AKA TEDDY PEDIGREE.jpg


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