# Pedigree Abbreviation Questions....



## jafo220

I just got my dogs Pedigree from AKC today. I had them go back 3 generations. Since the abbreviation key on the back is so thorough, my only questions on this are from a few dogs that are a ways back. The pedigree is showing 4 seperate German bloodlines. Some of the dogs though have strange registration numbers. Whats strange is instead of "DN" starting the number it is an "SZ". Also there are several, with the German lines that start with a "DL".

What are these designations for? Do they identify different Kennel Organizations?

To me, it's interesting. There are lines starting in Germany and one from Canada then to the US. Makes me wish I would have gotten the four generation pedigree. I'm just relieved that there were plenty of Hip and elbow check abbreviations on here. Not a gaurantee but it affords me alittle piece of mind that he comes from decent bloodlines with good hip and elbow confirmations.


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## Lucy Dog

This should help answer some questions.

German Shepherd Dog abbreviations, Definitions, and German terms | How to read German pedigree


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## jafo220

Thanks for the link. The desigantions in front of the registration numbers is what I'm curious about. The link you gave me is almost exactly what on the back of the pedigree. But some of it isn't, so thanks! 

Do you know if all pertinent information or abbreviations are on the pedigree? For example, if a dog was a showdog, would it show on the pedigree or would you have to dig further in a database somewhere to find it? Do they miss abbreviations sometimes that may be recorded somewhere else?


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## jafo220

I've done some investigating and say with confidence that the pedigree you recieve should be only taken at face value. In other words it's a good starting point as it gives you "some" information on lineage. They do not necessarily show all titles and such on the pedigree, or at least the one I got from the AKC.

As for what I'm finding is reaffirming my suspisions with Cruz's drive and natural tendancies when we're playing. I'm finding the abbreviation SHH on a quite a few relatives pedigree profiles. From the abbreviation lists, more than one, SHH relates to Schutzund training. 

Just thought I'd update my findings. I'm using the pedigree database on line. It's nice because now I can go even further back into his pedigree and so far I've been back to the mid 1980's. This stuff is cool.


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## Liesje

DN and DL are AKC numbers; SZ are German. AKC will only show titles they recognize. For example my dog has about 20 titles but I don't think a single one would show up on his AKC pedigree since I compete in almost every venue *but* AKC.


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## lyssa62

so a lot of SZ numbers will be german ...would this still mean a pet line? Also on Roxy's pedigree 5 generation there are a TON of SCH #'s


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## Lucy Dog

lyssa62 said:


> so a lot of SZ numbers will be german ...would this still mean a pet line? Also on Roxy's pedigree 5 generation there are a TON of SCH #'s


The SZ #'s are all german registration numbers.

When people refer to "pet lines", they're most talking about washed out american lines. No titles, pets that have bred pets that have bred more pets. No titles in any venue. No real goals. Stuff you'll typically find on craigslist for $400/pup.

If you're seeing sch titles and SZ numbers, those are not what's considered pet lines.


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## Liesje

lyssa62 said:


> so a lot of SZ numbers will be german ...would this still mean a pet line? Also on Roxy's pedigree 5 generation there are a TON of SCH #'s


Not a lot but all. If the dog is registered in Germany, the registration number starts with SZ. It doesn't matter what line.


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## jafo220

Liesje said:


> Not a lot but all. If the dog is registered in Germany, the registration number starts with SZ. It doesn't matter what line.




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Thanks for the coversation on this and reaffirming the "SZ" designation on the registration number, but I still have some registration numers starting with "DL"???? The further I went back on his bloodlines, the more I seen SCHH1-3. This stuff is interesting.

But it relieves me to know Cruz likely has the skills to train with Schutzund. I'm interested and am going to look into it. He needs an energy outlet big time!


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## jafo220

Liesje said:


> DN and DL are AKC numbers; SZ are German. AKC will only show titles they recognize. For example my dog has about 20 titles but I don't think a single one would show up on his AKC pedigree since I compete in almost every venue *but* AKC.




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Would this be due to the owner not updating pedigree info with the AKC? I noticed when registering on the database, it says it's up to the owner to keep the database updated on it's dogs titles ect. It's a great site though.


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## Liesje

jafo220 said:


> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
> 
> Thanks for the coversation on this and reaffirming the "SZ" designation on the registration number, but I still have some registration numers starting with "DL"???? The further I went back on his bloodlines, the more I seen SCHH1-3. This stuff is interesting.


I'm not sure what you mean. DL------ is an AKC registration number. The dog can have whatever titles it earns regardless of how/where it is registered. The AKC registration doesn't have anything to do with Schutzhund titles, other than saying it's likely a Schutzhund title is not going to show up on an official AKC pedigree, since the AKC does not award or recognize those titles, if that's what you mean.


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## Castlemaid

jafo220 said:


> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
> 
> Would this be due to the owner not updating pedigree info with the AKC? I noticed when registering on the database, it says it's up to the owner to keep the database updated on it's dogs titles ect. It's a great site though.


The pedigree database is not associated with AKC in any shape or form. It is not an official site of any Kennel Club organization, just a convenient on-line tracking system that is completely user driven.

AKC will only show titles earned through sanctioned AKC matches, shows and venues, that is why titles earned through other organizations other then AKC (or CKC - Canadian Kennel Club), will not be printed on an AKC pedigree.


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## lyssa62

so the pedigree database isn't the same as the AKC? Which is more accurate then to see the ancestry? When I pull up on the pedigree database Roxy's I think great great grandpa ( so to speak) I get Maj Cantos Vom Prairie Haus -- looking back on his side there are a lot of SCH #s 

so I am not sure how when I ask people to look at the AKC they can tell me that Roxy comes from a pet line??? Anybody else wanna help?


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## lyssa62

sorry you just now answered that JUST as I was typing the question


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## lyssa62

so even if a dog out of the lineage doesn't show big star accomplishments on the AKC -- if it shows on the pedigree database there is a chance the dog is more than a pet line? OR did some of the ancestors come from pet line and just happen to be really good at this other stuff?


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## Liesje

Can you post the dog you are talking about?


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## jafo220

Liesje said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. DL------ is an AKC registration number. The dog can have whatever titles it earns regardless of how/where it is registered. The AKC registration doesn't have anything to do with Schutzhund titles, other than saying it's likely a Schutzhund title is not going to show up on an official AKC pedigree, since the AKC does not award or recognize those titles, if that's what you mean.




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What I was getting at was since the letters "sz" were. German registration, I was looking at different letters meaning different "kennel" clubs. 

As far as the titles go, I understand now. I figured the database was not affiliated with other clubs. 

Thanks.


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## lyssa62

Liesje said:


> Can you post the dog you are talking about?



was this one for me ?  I will assume so 

if you look on the pedigree database sight I am looking at 

Maj Cantos Von Prairie Haus -- that would be my dogs great great grandfather I think.


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## lyssa62

it looks to me like on the AKC papers that Roxy's mom and dad should be listed on the AKC site but I cant' find them...

the dams name is Fran Von Coco ( her name is in blue and should show up...I can't find it) ..and the sires name is Muggins Gustov neither of them show up on the pedigree database and I cant' find them on the AKC even though they are on the paper I have in front of me...a 5 generation AKC pedigree


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## Liesje

lyssa62 said:


> Maj Cantos Von Prairie Haus -- that would be my dogs great great grandfather I think.


This dog is a west German show line


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## lyssa62

so that is the earliest I can date back...Roxy's mom doesn't show up on the pedigree search site..nor does her dad  ...there is another name that will show up on AKC but not the pedigree search site and that would be Roxy's great grandpa and his name is Valentino on Prairie Haus (again this name is in blue) I thought that mean they were registered. 

also Roxy's mom Fran Von Coco does not show up nor does her dad which is Muggins Gustov....I am REALLY interested in knowing what their story is


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## Castlemaid

Since the information is not available over the internet, contact Roxy's breeder. The breeder should have in-depth knowledge of the lines and the specific dogs in the pedigree.


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## lyssa62

so I registered my Coco's Practical Magick and filled in what I could with her pedigree papers showing the 5 generations. I'm still working on it..so maybe some of the people down the line with her ancestors can get on there and add stuff. I really really want to know the history of some of her lineage.


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## jafo220

So, since Cruz has a vast long line of German lines with a majority being recognised Schutzund dogs. Would this be considered a working blood line then?


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## Lucy Dog

jafo220 said:


> So, since Cruz has a vast long line of German lines with a majority being recognised Schutzund dogs. Would this be considered a working blood line then?


Looking at your dog's pedigree: 

Coco's Practical Magick

No, these are not working lines. Not show lines either. If you go back far enough in any pedigree, you'll get those lines, but it's too far back in this pedigree to be considered that.

I'd consider him an "enjoy your cute puppy" line.

EDIT: Sorry this should have been directed to Lyssa62... I'm mixing myself up.


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## Castlemaid

jafo, can you post a pedigree or provide a link? The Titles in themselves do not indicate bloodline, as in Germany, all GSDs must be titled in order to be eligible to breed, both the working lines and the showlines. It is the lineage of the dogs that indicate what line they are from.


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## jafo220

Castlemaid said:


> jafo, can you post a pedigree or provide a link? The Titles in themselves do not indicate bloodline, as in Germany, all GSDs must be titled in order to be eligible to breed, both the working lines and the showlines. It is the lineage of the dogs that indicate what line they are from.


Wow, I got alot to learn in pedigree's. Can you explain what your looking at on the pedigree in the way of what indicates bloodlines, in other words what on a pedigree indicates working lines or showlines? I must not understand how to read pedigree's or know what info is just "info" and what info is important.

Here are the Sire and Dam of my dog Cruz.

Sire: Kane Vom Valdivia Shepherds

Dam: J Mika Vom Whirling Thunder

I'll also try to scan his AKC pedigree and put it in the next post.


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## jafo220

Castlemaid said:


> jafo, can you post a pedigree or provide a link? The Titles in themselves do not indicate bloodline, as in Germany, all GSDs must be titled in order to be eligible to breed, both the working lines and the showlines. It is the lineage of the dogs that indicate what line they are from.


Here is the pedegree they sent me. It only goes back 3 generations. I used this to go onto the pedigree database and went further back.


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## jafo220

I'll be back in about 30 minutes or so. Cruz is about to turn inside out for a walk.


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## lyssa62

Lucy Dog said:


> Looking at your dog's pedigree:
> 
> Coco's Practical Magick
> 
> No, these are not working lines. Not show lines either. If you go back far enough in any pedigree, you'll get those lines, but it's too far back in this pedigree to be considered that.
> 
> I'd consider him an "enjoy your cute puppy" line.
> 
> EDIT: Sorry this should have been directed to Lyssa62... I'm mixing myself up.


so you must only be able to go back 1 or 2 generations then to show a working line or show dog? I guess I am not understanding it very well..I have people telling me I have some german show line and others telling me "enjoy your pet" ...I guess it really doesn't matter and I need to have somebody in person around here explain it all to me so we can go through it together. This might be something I do get together with the breeder on so she can walk me through it.


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## Liesje

jafo, the dam is west German show lines, the sire looks like some working lines and then a line that goes back to west German show lines on the bottom (sire's mother).


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## Lucy Dog

lyssa62 said:


> so you must only be able to go back 1 or 2 generations then to show a working line or show dog? I guess I am not understanding it very well..I have people telling me I have some german show line and others telling me "enjoy your pet" ...I guess it really doesn't matter and I need to have somebody in person around here explain it all to me so we can go through it together. This might be something I do get together with the breeder on so she can walk me through it.


You've got german show lines start at 7 generations back in your pup's pedigree.

To humanize it, think of it this way... if your great great great great great grandparents were of Italian descent and everyone else in your family was a mix of something else other than Italian... would that make you Italian? When you go that far back in a family tree, it's pretty much irrelevant at that point.


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## Lucy Dog

jafo220 said:


> Can you explain what your looking at on the pedigree in the way of what indicates bloodlines, in other words what on a pedigree indicates working lines or showlines?


There's nothing that specifically will say "working lines" or "show lines" on the pedigree. You just get to know kennels and specific dogs and know which lines they come from or breed. 

Like if you see "grafental" in the dog's name, you know that east german (ddr) working. If you see "pohranicni straze" you know those are Czech working lines. These are well known kennels that breed specific lines. If you see names that sound very American, those are probably American/Canadian lines.


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## Castlemaid

Cruz's parents are in the pedigree database, so you can "mate" them, and get Cruz's pedigree:

Line-breeding for the progency of Kane Vom Valdivia Shepherds and J Mika Vom Whirling Thunder

The father side is German working lines.

The mother side is all West German Showlines.

So Cruz is a 50/50 blend of working lines and German show lines.

Some well known and famous dogs on both sides!

Edit: Oops! I see that Lies already posted.


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## Liesje

Castlemaid said:


> Cruz's parents are in the pedigree database, so you can "mate" them, and get Cruz's pedigree:
> 
> Line-breeding for the progency of Kane Vom Valdivia Shepherds and J Mika Vom Whirling Thunder
> 
> The father side is German working lines.
> 
> The mother side is all West German Showlines.
> 
> So Cruz is a 50/50 blend of working lines and German show lines.
> 
> Some well known and famous dogs on both sides!
> 
> Edit: Oops! I see that Lies already posted.


The father has show lines behind his dam, so a little more than 50/50


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## cliffson1

Lies and Castlemaid are right!


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## jafo220

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Thanks a bunch. I can understand the explanation of going too far back. The bloodline becomes deluted with other lines the closer you get to the present. 

Wow, working and show lines. It's no wonder he's a mess! Pre-maddona, and a hotshot all in one dog. Ha ha!


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## Castlemaid

I missed that Lies - but you are right. You do have to go quite a ways back though.


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## Las Presitas

@ Lucy Dog. I like your analogy of the Italian great grand parents. Should make it easy for everyone (including me) to understand 


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