# Please help- Male 20 month GSD bite the dog walker!



## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Hi all

My dog is 20 month old, 90lb pure bred male GSD (not neutered). I did some training for him earlier when he was a puppy, but not much after her got age 6-7 month, me and my ex boyfriend were together since he was 8 weeks, my ex was spoiling him over the weekends, I broke up with the BF 2 month back and two days later my sister came to my house in which the dog have not seen here in like 10 month, he blasted from the garage inside the house, chased her and bite her arm, we had to take her to urgent care and she got 2 stitches and luckily animal control was not called. 
I immediately started to look for solutions and contacted several trainers here in LA and was referred to someone like 30 mile away in which they were very recommended, I signed him up on same day for 3 weeks boot camp (around $3500) and he stayed there for 3 weeks and I would go there every 4-5 days to get trained with him as well, they trained him good on obedience like sit, down, place, come, heel ... and since I brought him home 2 weeks I have been doing what they trained me to do with food of course.

Chase have a dog walker since he was 6 month old, he comes every day walk him for 30 min, sometimes twice a day while I'm at work except the weekends. Yesterday I was playing a ball catch with him in the backyard just before the dog walker time to come in as he seemed bored and I wanted to exercise him and I was home anyway, the dog walker showed up in the backyard like that I did not hear him coming and Chase went to him barking and was on high alert, then he was happy and the dog walker played a bit with him and took out for a walk. Today again I was staying home sitting room when dog walker opened the door (he has a key) and chase was happy to see him, the dog walker got in the kitchen to get the leash and came close to Chase food plate which was on the floor and chase started to growl at him, I immediately got up and said NO NO and tried to hold his pinch collar to correct him the way how's the trainers taught me but Chase just snapped and looked like he wanted to bite me then dog walker started to stop him by holding his collar and he just was mad and bite him on his hand, we pushed him back in the yard, closed the door and rushed the walker to the urgent care, he got few stitches on his hand and the dr gave him med, he didn't fill out the animal control papers.

I called the trainers at the boot camp and they told me not to call the animal control and they will give him more training but seemed to want to make more money, I then called another trainer who initially didn't agree to take him before I sign up to the bootcamp because the dog was not fixed. He was nice and promised to called the bootcamp people so they give me more free training, I then took him to the vet to check him out to roll out any issue causing this aggression, signed him up to be neutered next week and I asked the vet to give me some med to calm him down until next week and they advised me to call a behaviorist they know. 

My dog is very sweet boy however he is full of energy alpha male, when I walk him outside he is always on major alert, he looks around and is very alerted to every single person or dog walk by, he used to bark at other dogs but the training fixed this problem a lot but he still kind of like: I'm in control, I'm the master type of attitude that he always in! I'm working on showing him that I'm the one who control everything and he needs to respect and listen, I have been training him all day long like sit, down, NO, stay ... 

I'm very upset, I love him so much, I don't want him to hurt anyone else, I don't want them to put him down, I feel very bad, I don't know what went wrong and I have been crying all day, this is costing me so much money and I'm not sure if the below plans will work or should I make the decision that Chase is just aggressive and he wont be a normal dog and do something about it?

Here is the plan:
1- He is on some calming med now until next week, he usually sleep in my bedroom but I'm going to keep him out of the bedroom from now on and lock the door, as I don't want him to snap at me while I'm sleeping!
2- neuter him next week and I hope after 2-4 weeks this would calm him down? is it too late? have anyone here neutered his/her male GSD and saw improvements?
3- Go see the behaviorist as soon as he passes his post op time, may be a week or two
4- take him back to the bootcamp trainers or go to a different one here in LA? what else would they train him for?

Chase is very protective and I'm very concerned that is not seeing a difference between a stranger that showing sign to hurt me or family/ dog walker ..., is there any hope for him, please enlighten me, give me everything you have learned that helped your dogs, I don't want to give up on him but again I have responsibility here and I need to be realistic if a dog bite twice in a month and half period, then what are his chances of ever changing that? how does anyone can make a heart breaking decision to let him go because such dog is just a dominant alpha police line type of GSD as per boot camp trainers!

Please please help me, if you love your dog and have any advise to help me and Chase I would be forever grateful for you for spending the time to just type me an answer. 

I'm willing to spend more on training and on the behaviorist and of course no more dog walker and I will do the walk/ jog with him.

They crated him at the boocamp but I have never crated him here, I guess I need to buy a huge crate .

Thanks
Linda


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Stop wasting money on bootcamps. Take him off "calming meds." Find a professional trainer experienced with GSDs and work with them. Some people here can likely recommend good trainers in CA.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I believe what you saw was the dog coming up at the handler when corrected physically in a way the dog feels is unfair. 

Then you saw misdirected aggression when the dog walker tried to help you, the dog switched the aggression to him.

Where did you go wrong? I don't know. The household dynamics have changed and the dog is growing into his adult personality. I would have him neutered ASAP, and I am not a fan of neutering. 

I don't think boot camps are generally a good thing, because the owner usually needs as much training as the dog. The dog has zero confidence in you as his leader, and is making bad choices because he is a dog. So, you and the dog need to learn together. 

Trying to physically over-power this dog isn't going to work. He has shown that he will bite. This doesn't mean he is going to get it into his head to bite you while you sleep. Not at all. But if you try to physically punish him, force him off the bed or furniture, force him into a position he does not like, he will bite. 

He will, unless you get him back under control. The way to do this -- you will need a competent trainer. I think it can be done, without physical force, by improving your own stature, being consistent with training, follow through, clear commands, praise and correction with proper timing. Ditch the dumb prong collar -- this dog isn't going to listen to that. You need to make following what you want the dog to do, what the dog wants to do. You need to make him think you are better than chopped liver. You can do this. But it will be work. 

Sometimes it will mean ignoring his desire to push you into giving him a treat or playing with him. You need to use treats to get his A-game out of him, and when you get that, then he gets something good. Reward him with a game of fetch, and then more training. Have him constantly attentive to you, trying to please you. Ignore or reprove substandard performance. Training is the key, but it has to be good training. Think quality time. 

Stand up straight. Not, "no-no." NO! You need to feel bigger, stronger, tougher than this dog without ever proving it physically. 

You love the dog, we get that. But the dog has bitten two people already, and you are right to be concerned. We need to get you hooked up with someone who knows what they are doing with a dog that is willing to stick up for himself. 

Maybe this is a case for Dave Winners. You might try PMing him. Not sure what the rules are for new members though.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

So sorry you are having to go through this. I just wanted to say, many times when people have dog bite problems and post here - you can see pretty quickly what has gone wrong. Some won't take any suggestions to help and some take every suggestion and end up with a hodge podge of methods that can clash. 

You have been very responsible with this dog. You have done what many won't or can't do to ensure the best for him and that's great! I agree with getting him fixed because if you don't - you will simply not know if that will be of help or not. 

It may seem that the situation is hopeless right now but you also show that you are ready and willing to keep trying. Your pup is so lucky to have you for an owner. Anyway, don't despair - I think it would do you good to relax and enjoy the holidays and give yourself a break so you can regroup. Just keep your dog in normal routines that you know there's no problem with. Keep him away from people and calm to avoid unexpected conflict until you get a qualified trainer. 

In the mean time, there will be good advise here and perhaps a referral to someone in your area. IMO you need to learn what questions to ask a trainer in order to pick the right one for your dog with this specific problem. If you can get referrals actually contact the referrals to hear what they have to say. You want to be sure this time..... There's plenty of places as you've learned that will be happy to continue taking your money and not delivering the results you need. 

You might want to put up a separate post with how to select a trainer so people who know can give you specific suggestions on this and your title will draw their eye to the question.

Best of luck to you and your pup.


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Thanks a lot Stonevintage, yuriy and selzer .

I'm willing to do what it takes to help him, my only concerns are would fixing a male GSD calm him down specifically at 20 month old, the vet thought he is a bit old and may be too late for the calming down effect, he is scheduled next week, what options do I have anyway other than trying everything I can possibly try.

Today I took him for a walk and he was so excited to go out but as soon as we left the house I see him on full throttle alert status body language wise!! he is been like that for a while but it increased after the boot camp, he then kept look behind us, there was a woman walking a dog, he looked fearful and his attention was all about that dog no matter how much I tried to feel relaxed and enjoy the walk with him, I stepped on the side 30 feet away to let this woman with her dog pass us and then my dog started barking at the other dog. Not sure if this is a fear of something he recently got! or was the food or the other dogs smell on the walker that agitated him yesterday. 

Whatever the case, I do need help ASAP, I will try to PM Dave Winners and see if I can, I'm not a new member but I don't post usually.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Is your breeder able to offer any insight or trainer recommendations?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Grabbing a lot of dogs by the collar is asking to get bit Linda, a leash can give a different impression to dogs like that. Try a drag line, a leash with no handle and be prepared to control and manage what he has access to. The crate helps with that too.

Neutering. I've seen it make a difference, and not make a difference in behavior. When you take away the testosterone, you're changing something, so it probably comes down to what the root cause of the dogs behavior is. In your case, I'd do it and see.

There's a trainer in the LA area, Christopher Smith. I think he's on Facebook as Chris the Dog trainer? I'm not on Facebook so I'm not sure, but I think he'd be someone who could help you.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

If you can afford it, check out Sean O'Shea. He's in the LA area and he is The Good Dog Training and Rehabilitation on facebook. Perhaps talk to him on facebook.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Personally i would get a dog trainer willing to work with you in your own home. $3500 could have been hours of lessons, at home, real situations, not just working on obedience. 

Is he usually resource guarding his dish/food? Anything else? Beds, treats, toys, couch, etc.? If so that is something entirely different. 

I dont know if this helps, but body language is what i tend to use with dogs. Blocking, leaning forward just slightly, usually humans dont notice subtle body language cues, but dogs pick up on them. I guess since i work as a dog groomer and at the very same time i also get to watch sometimes 20 dogs of all breeds and personalities because we also are a doggy day care, i have to learn to communicate with them other than using pinch collars and leashes! 

Perhaps he is getting too much for free? And he needs to go to square one, and nothing is free.. He needs to work for everything.

Maybe he has lots of pent up energy.

Maybe he needs a job, and good brain stimulation. 

Could be so many things, and more than likely many things. Those are just some initial thoughts!

Luckily he has you and it sounds like your dedicated to him no matter what it is, which is awesome!  Good luck to you! I hope that you keep us updated.


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## Sayan35 (Oct 15, 2015)

Regarding the bite, both of you made the wrong move. You do not grab a dog in defense mode by the pinch collar. It is asking to be bitten the dogwalker should know better. Afterall he was the trigger.
Wether it was resource guarding or Chase warned him from getting to where you are is something you need to find out.

Imo Chase has become protective of you. Not uncommon specially for the GSD to become protective when someone get sick, going through emotional stress or someone leaves.

It is certainly correctable, find a knowledgeable trainer to train you, to train your dog.

Chase is lucky to have you,


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

I don't know what to do!! today I took him for a walk and he kept looking behind him and was extremely alert and he was like fearful of something. I came back home and went to garage and out of sudden he started running around like a mad dog for no reason, barking and jumping and running in circles and extremely agitated, I quietly back off and left the garage leaving the whole backyard and garage for him as I knew something bad going to happen if I try to do something in which I'm not trained to do it! I then let him there for an hour and I then mixed the calming med with some tuna and put it outside, he ate it and he is in the garage resting now but still very alert like the calming med is doing nothing! its Christmas day no one is open!
I texted 3 trainers including the boot camp trainer to see what I should do, I'm in the verge to call animal control as I don't think I have the energy or the personality to fix him, I wanted to see if anyone there can take him, take care of him, I will pay him, give him full year of his medical insurance, I don't want anyone to hurt him but I don't think I'm qualified to take care of him anymore, I'm so disappointed in myself and feel extremely guilty. I only got a call from the boot camp trainer and the other 2 didn't even care! the trainer told me that my dog bit 4 trainers at the bootcamp when he was there for 3 weeks, I had no idea!!!! he told me he did this first 2 days and then got better and nothing after that. 

I think my mistake was I took a while to start training him, I did train him a bit when he was between 9 weeks to 4 month, then after that he was getting spoiled by the ex and me too, I'm paying for these mistakes now and feel very upset and guilty for doing so.
Chase is 5th generation purebred, his actual name Nando von den oher Tannen (we call him Chase)
His dad Leo von der Zentrische = Leo von der Zenteiche

His mom Olivia von Tronje = Olivia von Tronje

His brother Noah von den Oher Tannen = Noah von den Oher Tannen

His sister Nanni von den Oher Tannen = Nanni von den Oher Tannen

These people did amazing job training and taking care of their dogs! I totally messed up and this poor dog is paying the price.
I asked the trainer to find a place for him where someone is able to lead him and take care of him, he told me there is a place for GDS here in CA and he will call me back with info. I don't know what I need to do today or tomorrow just keeping him separated from me, feed him and see if I can find a place for him.

Totally devastated!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I have nothing to offer, other than I am so very sorry.

As previously mentioned, have you spoken to your breeder? Your breeder knows his/her dogs. Please call your breeder for advice.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Lisa Maze is a trainer sorta near your area you can try her. There is a trainer near long beach named Karin Chan that might be able to help too. Meanwhile if I were you I'd chill the **** out. Stop the walks if you feel you are losing control of the dog. Get a crate or contain the dog in another room if you have company over. The dog can't do much damage if you keep it away from trouble. That will buy you time to find a trainer that can help you.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If you really feel like he's too much for you and you can't handle him and can't work with another trainer, then call Coastal or GSROC and explain the situation. They might take him or they might have a good trainer who handles aggression. Most rescues won't take a dog with a bit history but it's not clear he's biting out of aggression or because your methods aren't right for him. I sent you a PM with information on one I have used with my rescues. You sound scared and that won't work. You need to be confident and in charge. 

He comes from good lines. Can you contact the breeder you got him from? If you love the dog and want to keep him it's not too late but you don't need a gentle, all positive trainer, you need someone skilled in behavior modification who has a lot of experience with aggression. Those boot camps are not the place for a family dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Uh Wow!!
I see I'm late to this party!

I see "Sean O'Shea" has been mentioned because of your location. More details here and yeah with this dog "you" need to lose the "Prong Collar" it can be a two edged sword!

But you can start over while you look for help and seeking competent help is "highly advised!" See I just got a rescue in the GSD link.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

No more bites use a muzzle if you need to. And you can find muzzle conditioning clips at solidk9training.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

You can try and contact Marley's Mutts Dog Rescue. I don't know if they will take a dog that has a bite history and I don't know how far they are from you. I wish you luck.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Uh Wow!!
> No more bites use a muzzle if you need to. And you can find muzzle conditioning clips at solidk9training.


This is the one thing Chip that seems to be a universal problem. I will never understand when an owner (new or someone that's raised the dog from a pup) is so ready to rush through (denial then acceptance) and then rush the dogs off "stating he BIT ME", *sending thest dogs to their deaths - no option - they failed, so the dog dies*

But these same people won't bother to muzzle the dog until their heads get straight and they can explore their resources. Remove the potential for a bite - how to these owners seem to seem that washing their hands immediately of the dog "they love so much", sending them to their deaths is a more responsible choice to putting a muzzle on them? 

I think these people are acting like a bunch of 10 year olds. It's not working out perfectly - it makes me mad/sad so it just needs to go away......right now.....


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

I would wait a week at least before calling around to see who would take him. Once you have let him go it would be very difficult if not impossible to get him back. You need to make sure you would be at peace with your decision to rehome him and that you can picture your life happily without him. 

I agree two bites is bad, two bites that required stitches is worse, but this dog is by no means without hope. It might be that you need to forge a better bond with him built on mutual respect and that you have to manage situations he is put in for the rest of his life but not impossible. Please have a recommended behaviorist come observe you and the dog at home. This is definitely not the type of gsd who can be sent to camp to solve his problems, he obeys the handler he respects. He learned to respond to his handler at camp but from the picture you have painted he does not respect you. You cannot man handle this dog as others have said, he needs to do it for his devotion to you.

My boy Lobo is also a super alpha. Three weeks ago we had a behaviorist come to our home to help us address his aggressive resource guarding (particularly food) in one visit and $100 dollars later we had a new plan to help him. This is a dog who has been in obedience classes since 12 weeks (he is 19 months) so dont feel completely defeated about not having taken chase to classes. There is no doubt in my mind that he was at a point that he would seriously injure someone over food but just three weeks, some advice and one trainer visit later he is a completely different dog around food. Dont get me wrong we are still working daily with him but he is leaps and bounds better. Please get a few other opinions (some behaviorist offer free consultation) before giving up on you boy or you ability as a handler.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> This is the one thing Chip that seems to be a universal problem. I will never understand when an owner (new or someone that's raised the dog from a pup) is so ready to rush through (denial then acceptance) and then rush the dogs off "stating he BIT ME", *sending thest dogs to their deaths - no option - they failed, so the dog dies*
> 
> But these same people won't bother to muzzle the dog until their heads get straight and they can explore their resources. Remove the potential for a bite - how to these owners seem to seem that washing their hands immediately of the dog "they love so much", sending them to their deaths is a more responsible choice to putting a muzzle on them?
> 
> I think these people are acting like a bunch of 10 year olds. It's not working out perfectly - it makes me mad/sad so it just needs to go away......right now.....


Well yeah they screwed up with the "wrong" but they "tried" to find a "competent" trainer and that went wrong to because yet again they had the wrong dog for 90 percent of the trainers out there. 

That is what I hear from people that "do" work with dogs such as this! But if you're new with a "Red Zone" dog ... it kinda sets you back!

If send away trainer is still a possibility and the OP is in LA?? Then there "is" hope:

This dog sounds like uh ... a "serious" handful but there is hope! Meet Gus:

What You Don?t Know Can Hurt You (And Your Dog) – Solid K9 Training

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU1On4PNbsI

That's how its done Homie style.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If your trainer is a dominance theory trainer he is missing something huge. He probably couldn't handle a real aggression case. Dominance theory is bull****.

Anytime I hear someone talk dominance or alpha or that kind of thing I know they are clueless. 

Your dog is probably an owner empowered fearful wuss and you guys have it twisted.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well yeah they screwed up with the "wrong" but they "tried" to find a "competent" trainer and that went wrong to because yet again they had the wrong dog for 90 percent of the trainers out there.
> 
> That is what I hear from people that "do" work with dogs such as this! But if you're new with a "Red Zone" dog ... it kinda sets you back!
> 
> ...


I'm just trying to communicate - muzzle is a good idea.....


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

OP, I just pm'd you the name of one behaviorist and one trainer that have good reputations for working with difficult dogs in Los Angeles. They're known in the breed rescue world there to get results. (I haven't used either one, but I still have rescue contacts there and got names for you.) Hopefully Bailiff and others can also PM you some names of other people who have good reputations.

This problem should not be dumped on a rescue. No rescue has people knocking on their door asking for dogs that bite.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I'm just trying to communicate - muzzle is a good idea.....


No problem (this time!!) 

I understand what you are saying. I'm just "speculating" that putting a muzzle on "this" dog may be a problem??

People need to use a muzzle "before" a problem dog is able to learn ... "hey if I bite the crap out of someone ...it gets them out of my face!"

I "had" a bubble dog and he was muzzled before he ever got the chance to bite the crap out of people. 

Just "throwing" a muzzle on "this" dog ...may not be so simple??


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Have you contacted the breeder? Have you considered returning him to the breeder? He has a very nice pedigree, and unless you imported him, the breeders ought to be willing to take him back and assess him. 

Sometimes the drugs act differently with different dogs. Also, 20 months old, he could be having the beginnings of some form of epilepsy. Not sure. But the running around in the garage is odd, all of the behavior is a little odd, like he could have encephalitis or a tumor in his brain or epilepsy, or something that is causing him to heighten his fear responses, and act aggressively. Medications or something he may be injesting that you do not know about might also cause a response like this. 

Call his breeder before animal control, please.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

What OP ends up doing is on them. I will say this though. When you know about dogs, I mean really know about dogs, most of these events that seem like such unpredictable crisis's are really not that big a deal. You know how to prevent them, or fix them, or manage them as they come up and it is what it is. So you can put the dog down, find someone to help you and teach you the right way to live with the dog, or try to pass the problem dog off on someone else, in which case if it ends up going to the wrong place it will probably end up dead anyway.

I would encourage you to learn though. Some day you will want another dog and if you remain ignorant chances are you will at some point encounter this kind of dog again, especially if you keep getting shepherds. Ignorance can cost you more than the life of one dog in your lifetime.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> What OP ends up doing is on them. I will say this though. When you know about dogs, I mean really know about dogs, most of these events that seem like such unpredictable crisis's are really not that big a deal. You know how to prevent them, or fix them, or manage them as they come up and it is what it is. So you can put the dog down, find someone to help you and teach you the right way to live with the dog, or try to pass the problem dog off on someone else, in which case if it ends up going to the wrong place it will probably end up dead anyway.
> 
> I would encourage you to learn though. Some day you will want another dog and if you remain ignorant chances are you will at some point encounter this kind of dog again, especially if you keep getting shepherds. Ignorance can cost you more than the life of one dog in your lifetime.


I think I got all my ignorance out of the way in one shot!

I only had 5 stitches in one finger! It seems my little finger was permanently bent (can't fully extend it) but I don't count that! 

The value of Crate training uh what's a crate?? The proper way to break up a Dog Fight ...stitches on that one! And proper management (I dare you to try it??? that was me to Rocky) Yes that one is where the stitches came from!

Good times, Good times.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> No problem (this time!!)
> 
> I understand what you are saying. I'm just "speculating" that putting a muzzle on "this" dog may be a problem??
> 
> ...


Yes, obviously it should be done as a precaution at the first signs, but I thought we were talking here about how to deal with this dog until a proper trainer can come in to the picture...... It's a slippery slope to make any suggestion here isn't it? Others will always move the conversation outside of immediate goals - just to prove... what?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Yes, obviously it should be done as a precaution at the first signs, but I thought we were talking here about how to deal with this dog until a proper trainer can come in to the picture...... It's a slippery slope to make any suggestion here isn't it? Others will always move the conversation outside of immediate goals - just to prove... what?


 Well I do "expect" people to use some kind'a of "common sense" I don't post anything "confrontational??" 

I think everybody is on the seek "competent" help bandwagon?? The muzzle is a good idea if the dog needs to be around people but in retrospect, you are correct if putting one on does prove to be an issue ... I did indeed point to how to do it, my bad??


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well I do "expect" people to use some kind'a of "common sense" I don't post anything "confrontational??"
> 
> I think everybody is on the seek "competent" help bandwagon?? The muzzle is a good idea if the dog needs to be around people but in retrospect, you are correct if putting one on does prove to be an issue ... I did indeed point to how to do it, my bad??


No not "your bad" I thought it was an excellent idea. This poster, since she got the phone call today from the "boot camp" trainer about the bites the dog inflicted on the trainers there is afraid of her own dog. Last I heard from the OP - the dog was outside and she was inside the house and in fear of going out to the dog.....

If the owner is in fear, and the dog's future is undecided, I think a muzzle is a great idea for the dog, not just around others, but with her also.... She has lost confidence in her own dog and is in fear of him. I would certainly muzzle my own dog around me if the trust bond was broken. Sitting duck with no leader......


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> No not "your bad" I thought it was an excellent idea. This poster, since she got the phone call today from the "boot camp" trainer about the bites the dog inflicted on the trainers there is afraid of her own dog. Last I heard from the OP - the dog was outside and she was inside the house and in fear of going out to the dog.....
> 
> If the owner is in fear, and the dog's future is undecided, I think a muzzle is a great idea for the dog, not just around others, but with her also.... She has lost confidence in her own dog and is in fear of him. I would certainly muzzle my own dog around me if the trust bond was broken. Sitting duck with no leader......


Ugh OK my head is starting to spin here! Looking back the dogs training was abandoned at 7 months, he was finally sent off to boot camp where he was crated and came home and was no longer crated??

The dog "apparently" has resource guarding issues?? The dog walker is a collar grabbing fool and apparently everybody she has tried to associate is just as uh ..."stupid!" And now she is terrified of her own dog??

I think that sums it up??


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Ugh OK my head is starting to spin here! Looking back the dogs training was abandoned at 7 months, he was finally sent off to boot camp where he was crated and came home and was no longer crated??
> 
> The dog "apparently" has resource guarding issues?? The dog walker is a collar grabbing fool and apparently everybody she has tried to associate is just as uh ..."stupid!" And now she is terrified of her own dog??
> 
> I think that sums it up??


Read post #1 here and then post #11 by the OP.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Read post #1 here and then post #11 by the OP.


On it!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK ...it got worst! The dog tracked down and bit her sister! I thought the real crazy was the garage one hour and I will my drug my dog and maybe call AC thing??

And I'm not counting the biting the Dog Walker and "Trainers" thing! And not to mention $3500 dollars down a rat hole!!

Man I have not been here long but this is about as bad as it gets!

OP one simple question can you/will you put a muzzle on this dog?? If you can do that then there maybe hope for you and this dog??


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

OP all these posters mean well and have dealt with difficult dogs in the past. They have helped me a lot with my dog. 
I would private message any of them, Baillif sounds like he knows someone that could help you near your location, otherwise has a wealth of knowledge on dog training. 

Why not decide now to dedicate your life to this dog? *Buy a baskerville muzzle*, they are cheap as dirt and work amazing. My dog wears hers when i have guests over, and when im out in the public with her. She lives. You can find it on amazon. Why use a muzzle. its called peace of mind. Also it helps relax you, which sounds like you need! I know i need it sometimes. You know they cant bite anyone when they wear a muzzle. When they wear a basket muzzle, they can eat treats, drink water, pant, even play with sticks on walks, etc. 

As for the garage incident, bring it up with _*another*_ _*vet*_. This anxiety medication business is sketchy,* i would call a holistic vet *near you, i find them to have more passion for the animal itself than just it being another case. Perhaps they will have more insight! 

*Dont give up on this dog.* I insist. You have come this far, you know what he is capable of, and think of how much more he is, if you can figure out if this is a medical issue or a case of behavioral.* i would keep a leash on him at all times, he would eat one kibble at a time from my hand. He would earn his attention- even if its just a down, he would get his mind focused on me before a walk, meaning we would do a heel session before we walked. He would be in his crate when i cant keep 100% tab on him. He would get a **** ton of exercise, i would find a game for him to play- nose work is great for any breed dog with drive. 
*
Feel free to private message me if you need support or to vent! I know how it is! 

*I would find another dog trainer!*


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Great posts on the muzzle suggestion. My pup will still have situations to go through in the future that may involve an experience to which I can't afford to assume how she will react. I think I'm going to get a muzzle and train her to it so it will be there as a tool, if needed. The baskerville muzzle sounds like a good choice. Thanks!


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Update: 12.26
Hi guys, thank you all for taking the time to respond to me, I spent the whole Christmas day on my boy (Chase!), when I gave him the calming med (Acerpromazine) in the morning, an hour and half later he got the madness, he was panting, jumping all over, looking outside the glass door (my garage has a glass door overlooking somehow busy street) and there was no one around, walker or runner or whatever, he was like he heard some noises in his head and looking outside, very scary!, I kept him locked and started looking for GSD rescue places and yes I got to this point where I felt I can't possibly help him, then when I looked up the LA GSD site I found info on a trainer his name Eran (www,manofdogs.com) with a phone #, he volunteer there so I figured what I'm going to lose anyway, its Christmas day and no one going to answer me, I texted that number and 15 min later the trainer called me and 2 hours later he was at my house, he stayed for nearly 2.5 hours working with me and Chase, this trainer is amazing as he was reading my dog body language and most of it he was scared and fearful!, probably the boot camp in Canoga Park abused him and treated him like a slave as since I brought him back he would lower his head looking with fear in his eye when I try to pet him!! at the end Chase was relaxed and happy and we agreed that I hire him for more training classes all at my house or in my neighborhood where Chase can learn how to react to me, people and how to control himself. He suggested that I cover the garage glass door and window so Chase does not spend the day looking at people and cars, barking and getting agitated not at this stage, plus he ditched the prong collar and gave me the chock one? not sure what they call it and asked me to buy him a muzzle which I'm ordering tonight.

Chase is way better today and I'm hiring this trainer for long time until I bring out the best of Chase and of course I will use the muzzle in public as I can't possibly take another chances on him.

Please keep your suggestions and ideas coming.


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

selzer said:


> Have you contacted the breeder? Have you considered returning him to the breeder? He has a very nice pedigree, and unless you imported him, the breeders ought to be willing to take him back and assess him.
> 
> Sometimes the drugs act differently with different dogs. Also, 20 months old, he could be having the beginnings of some form of epilepsy. Not sure. But the running around in the garage is odd, all of the behavior is a little odd, like he could have encephalitis or a tumor in his brain or epilepsy, or something that is causing him to heighten his fear responses, and act aggressively. Medications or something he may be injesting that you do not know about might also cause a response like this.
> 
> Call his breeder before animal control, please.


His breeder didn't really care! she took two days to reply to my text and when I texted her back asking her to let me call her, she called back saying I'm glad you find a good trainer and she would help to find me a trainer in LA! I don't know why would anyone return a dog to a breeder, wouldn't be this cruel, the breeder will for sure ends up killing the poor dog! I'm going to work with the new trainer i found yesterday and put a muzzle on him when someone visit and keep training him as long as I can.


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Lobo dog said:


> I would wait a week at least before calling around to see who would take him. Once you have let him go it would be very difficult if not impossible to get him back. You need to make sure you would be at peace with your decision to rehome him and that you can picture your life happily without him.
> 
> I agree two bites is bad, two bites that required stitches is worse, but this dog is by no means without hope. It might be that you need to forge a better bond with him built on mutual respect and that you have to manage situations he is put in for the rest of his life but not impossible. Please have a recommended behaviorist come observe you and the dog at home. This is definitely not the type of gsd who can be sent to camp to solve his problems, he obeys the handler he respects. He learned to respond to his handler at camp but from the picture you have painted he does not respect you. You cannot man handle this dog as others have said, he needs to do it for his devotion to you.
> 
> My boy Lobo is also a super alpha. Three weeks ago we had a behaviorist come to our home to help us address his aggressive resource guarding (particularly food) in one visit and $100 dollars later we had a new plan to help him. This is a dog who has been in obedience classes since 12 weeks (he is 19 months) so dont feel completely defeated about not having taken chase to classes. There is no doubt in my mind that he was at a point that he would seriously injure someone over food but just three weeks, some advice and one trainer visit later he is a completely different dog around food. Dont get me wrong we are still working daily with him but he is leaps and bounds better. Please get a few other opinions (some behaviorist offer free consultation) before giving up on you boy or you ability as a handler.


Lobo is so handsome ! he is very close in age to Chase. I'm going to find a behaviorist but I don't think in LA it will cost $100, probably 3-4 times more!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Man ... what a way to spend Christmas day this was ... "everybody!" But if this member and this dog now have a glimmer of hope ... "We done good!"

To the OP ... I award a "Houndy":










Nuff said!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Very good news!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

First, do what you are doing and stick with a good trainer. This cannot be fixed on this site. Ace can make dogs act crazier as they feel "out of control". I've seen it personally. Be very careful with it.

in edit. I see you did. 




Beachgirl said:


> Update: 12.26
> Hi guys, thank you all for taking the time to respond to me, I spent the whole Christmas day on my boy (Chase!), when I gave him the calming med (Acerpromazine) in the morning, an hour and half later he got the madness, he was panting, jumping all over, looking outside the glass door (my garage has a glass door overlooking somehow busy street) and there was no one around, walker or runner or whatever, he was like he heard some noises in his head and looking outside, very scary!, I kept him locked and started looking for GSD rescue places and yes I got to this point where I felt I can't possibly help him, then when I looked up the LA GSD site I found info on a trainer his name Eran (www,manofdogs.com) with a phone #, he volunteer there so I figured what I'm going to lose anyway, its Christmas day and no one going to answer me, I texted that number and 15 min later the trainer called me and 2 hours later he was at my house, he stayed for nearly 2.5 hours working with me and Chase, this trainer is amazing as he was reading my dog body language and most of it he was scared and fearful!, probably the boot camp in Canoga Park abused him and treated him like a slave as since I brought him back he would lower his head looking with fear in his eye when I try to pet him!! at the end Chase was relaxed and happy and we agreed that I hire him for more training classes all at my house or in my neighborhood where Chase can learn how to react to me, people and how to control himself. He suggested that I cover the garage glass door and window so Chase does not spend the day looking at people and cars, barking and getting agitated not at this stage, plus he ditched the prong collar and gave me the chock one? not sure what they call it and asked me to buy him a muzzle which I'm ordering tonight.
> 
> Chase is way better today and I'm hiring this trainer for long time until I bring out the best of Chase and of course I will use the muzzle in public as I can't possibly take another chances on him.
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Beachgirl said:


> His breeder didn't really care! she took two days to reply to my text and when I texted her back asking her to let me call her, she called back saying I'm glad you find a good trainer and she would help to find me a trainer in LA! I don't know why would anyone return a dog to a breeder, wouldn't be this cruel, the breeder will for sure ends up killing the poor dog! I'm going to work with the new trainer i found yesterday and put a muzzle on him when someone visit and keep training him as long as I can.


It's not cruel to return a dog to a breeder if the dog is not a good match. Did she say she would put the dog down?

What She offered to do is appropriate at this stage, help you find a trainer. Since you live in Cali and she is in GA there's not much else that can be done unless you want to return the dog.

As Bailiff said this sort of thing doesn't come out of the blue.


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Ugh OK my head is starting to spin here! Looking back the dogs training was abandoned at 7 months, he was finally sent off to boot camp where he was crated and came home and was no longer crated??
> 
> The dog "apparently" has resource guarding issues?? The dog walker is a collar grabbing fool and apparently everybody she has tried to associate is just as uh ..."stupid!" And now she is terrified of her own dog??
> 
> I think that sums it up??


I agree on the collar grabbing fool and that everyone I was associated or hired was stupid, as I said I fully take responsibility for not training him much earlier.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> First, do what you are doing and stick with a good trainer. This cannot be fixed on this site. Ace can make dogs act crazier as they feel "out of control". I've seen it personally. Be very careful with it.
> 
> in edit. I see you did.


Aww "ACE" ...the crazy running around in the garage thing thing!!!

Yet another reason why "I" feel trainers/behaviorist that recommend "drugs" as a solution for problems are "clueless!" 

You mention "ACE" and derivatives there of on a "Boxer" forum (and for the record ... back in the day, Boxers were herder dogs also) and you best have a "flame proof on!"


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Beachgirl,

The best thing you can do is work with your trainer and keep Nadia in the loop. She knows her dogs. This stuff happens it's best to stay in touch with your breeder and understand that she has a family, kennel so don't get too angry if she doesn't get back with you right away.

If she can recommend another trainer meet with him/her as well. 

The best thing is to have a trainer that knows German Shepherds and dealing with aggression. 

Nadia may be able to get you set up with a trainer that works in IPO because those trainers know shepherds and know how to read dogs. Keep that in mind if you don't get results with your new trainer.


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> No not "your bad" I thought it was an excellent idea. This poster, since she got the phone call today from the "boot camp" trainer about the bites the dog inflicted on the trainers there is afraid of her own dog. Last I heard from the OP - the dog was outside and she was inside the house and in fear of going out to the dog.....
> 
> If the owner is in fear, and the dog's future is undecided, I think a muzzle is a great idea for the dog, not just around others, but with her also.... She has lost confidence in her own dog and is in fear of him. I would certainly muzzle my own dog around me if the trust bond was broken. Sitting duck with no leader......


I actually don't believe for a second that my dog bit 4 trainers at the bootcamp unless of course they promoted him to do so by hitting the **** out of him! my dog or any dog would want to defend himself.
Out of desperation I scrambled around to find a trainer when my dog bit my sister (now this bite was not based on aggression but the fact that he last seen her when he was 6 month old, this is like 13 month back, plus he didn't have much training to fix his over protective personality), to me this was a shock and I didn't expect it, this dog grow up very fast and out of sudden he is a huge 90 lb over protective male GSD. what someone like me would do when finally found a trainer that do bootcamp and have glorious reviews on yelp! how would I know which training is good or not (yes I know now!). 
The trainer that was assigned to me who brought Chase back to my house after the training was using his key chain as a sound to have Chase listens to him and when my sister asked him wow he listens to just the sound of that thing, he replied to her saying well if he doesn't I would hit him with it!!! 

Looks like the training he got was based on fear, I hope this have not affected him permanently.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Just because a dog hasn't seen someone in a while doesn't mean it makes sense for it to go ahead and bite the person. 

What you are calling protective is fear. A protective dog watches carefully and will bite only if the owner is threatened.


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Beachgirl,
> 
> The best thing you can do is work with your trainer and keep Nadia in the loop. She knows her dogs. This stuff happens it's best to stay in touch with your breeder and understand that she has a family, kennel so don't get too angry if she doesn't get back with you right away.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I trust Nadia and she is a great breeder, she never failed me. I love Chase he is everything to me. 

I'm not angry, sorry if I sounded like that, it has been very difficult for me. I would for sure recommend Nadia and her dogs for anyone. Her dogs are the most beautiful dog I ever seen and they are so perfect in every way you can imagine, Chase may not be the perfect example behavior wise but this not her problem, its my problem and mistake! 
When I said that why would return the dog to a breeder as I don't know what they will do to him other than put him down, I have no idea what their options are.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah, I understand. You mentioned she didn't get back to you for a couple days and didn't care but I know you were probably feeling stressed.

I know this is a scary problem and it is serious and that should not be taken lightly. 

But....do take a breath....

Don't become overwhelmed trying to get this fixed especially over the Internet.

One step at a time. Keep Nadia up to date on how things are going. Let her help you.

If the new trainer isn't getting results it's o.k. to go with another trainer, especially one that she recommends. I know of a IPO trainer in LA that may be able to help. I'll send information over PM tomorrow, just keep it in case you need it. 

This problem didn't happen overnight so it will take some time to correct it.

Hang in there, your dog has a good pedigree, if his genetics are good it should help him bounce back and be the wonderful dog you always wanted.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Baillif said:


> Lisa Maze is a trainer sorta near your area you can try her.


Lisa is terrific, but if the OP is in LA, she's not even remotely close. Lisa is here in the Bay Area, which would be nearly 400 miles away.


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yeah, I understand. You mentioned she didn't get back to you for a couple days and didn't care but I know you were probably feeling stressed.
> 
> I know this is a scary problem and it is serious and that should not be taken lightly.
> 
> ...


Thank you!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok cool. My last post was in response and in fear of you taking the dog to Animal Control. I did not want to see the dog put down before the breeder had a chance to give him a chance. 

It sounds like you found someone whose method the dog responds to. Some of the meds to calm do the opposite on some dogs. My parents' dog had epilepsy and the vet gave him valium. Valium made Cujo pretty hyped up. If you are feeling good about the trainer, I would probably ditch the calming medication as it doesn't seem to be working. Or, you can call the vet that prescribed it, and describe the response the dog had, maybe they have heard of something like that, and have another choice that works on dogs that don't seem to get the desired effect from the drug.


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## Sayan35 (Oct 15, 2015)

I am glad you found hope and perspective for you and chase.

Regarding the breeder: Imo the breeder has some responsibility in this case.

As a breeder of high energy WL GSD's you must make sure the buyer has the experience to handle such dog. Otherwise you are setting buyer and your progeny up for failure.
You must keep notes on health, nerve stabillity and overall demeanour, this information is vital to evaluate the lines you are breeding. If by any reason you fail all the above, when there is trouble you must offer support all the way.

Please keep posting on your progression with Chase.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Beachgirl said:


> what someone like me would do when finally found a trainer that do bootcamp and have glorious reviews on yelp! how would I know which training is good or not (yes I know now!).


 LOL ... it's called *"The School of Hard Knocks"* ... welcome aboard! 

You did make some mistakes you realized it and you looked for help! You did do what any "reasonable right thinking person would do" turn to the "Pro's."
Unfortunately with this dog ...it sounds like you got what you paid for, a high drive serious freaking dog! That fell out side the "type" of dog that "most" trainers are capable of dealing with!

But no to your point "you" would not know that! They did and they "lied to you" about there capabilities! That is not your fault! 

You got some very bad advise from multi sources and you "assumed" that these sources knew what they were talking about .... apparently not however! 

And it seems also that your dog had a bad reaction to the "ACE" derivative?? 
Biology "stuff" but "herder" breeds can have a problem with it!

It's a boiler plate rule for "Boxer" owners:

Acepromazine (ACE) as a Anesthetic - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

It seems your dog falls into this group?? The solution is simple ..just say "NO" to Ace for "your" dog! 

But the bottom line for "me" who have been if a "trainer" advises "supplements" for behavioral issues ... for "me" that says I have no clue what I am dealing with here so let's drug the dog! 

Yeah ... that did not work out to well! That was a "red flag" and "now" you know! But bottom line you did do what I recommend to people "out think your dog!" You just had a seriously bumpy ride getting there! 






Beachgirl said:


> The trainer that was assigned to me who brought Chase back to my house after the training was using his key chain as a sound to have Chase listens to him and when my sister asked him wow he listens to just the sound of that thing, he replied to her saying well if he doesn't I would hit him with it!!!
> 
> Looks like the training he got was based on fear, I hope this have not affected him permanently.


Well they managed to do so much wrong that I understand why you freak at that. But it is actually based on a sound principle!

How it should have worked is here:
Dog Training and Obedience Articles | Self Correction - Carpentersville, Illinois

But ...no idea what his goals were??


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Sayan35 said:


> I am glad you found hope and perspective for you and chase.
> 
> Regarding the breeder: Imo the breeder has some responsibility in this case.
> 
> ...


I agree that any breeder of such dogs have responsibility to whom they sell these dogs to, they should make sure to at least educate the buyer of how to handle the dogs and get training as soon as these puppies come home. In Chase case he had several issues since I got him when he was 8 weeks, first I found out he has some kind of hernia when the vet checked him for some etching issues, vet assured me that they will go by itself and if not they will fix it plus they found that he has some bend in his tail a sign of he may got bitten or injured before I get him, it was not something you can see it but at the bottom of his tail which you can feel it, something that someone later told me that with this issue this dog will not be able to compete in these IPO or whatever they call them, 2nd few month later another vet found he has some kind of a bony growth on one of his leg not the part he walk on so its not affecting his walking, the vet said it looks genetic and it was and still of half golf ball size, so the poor dog has three issues two of them may be genetic and who knows if the 3rd one is also genetic. Now I don't know if his extremely alpha high energy is also genetic.
I have scheduled more training with the trainer who saw him two days back but I don't know if I feel this may not work I may just call the breeder to see what they can do. I don't want this dog to get hurts or hurt more people.

I'm drained financially! I pay around $1000 every month to the dog walker to walk him mid day when I'm at work and some days the dog walker comes twice if I see that I will be home late so Chase gets enough exercise and see people during the day, I have hired several trainers so far and still have to pay the new one for indefinite time and not even sure if this will work or not.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

At this point it doesn't matter Chip. What's done is done. BG understands what happened.


Beachgirl I will be sending you the IPO trainer information shortly. Check your private messages a little later.

Also, Beachgirl, don't worry about some of the comments here. I suggest you focus on getting you and Chase on the right track.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I would be curious just to how much actual exercise this dog really gets. Even though it is a show line, not a high energy working line, just having a big back yard, tossing a ball around on occasion and leash walking is not enough.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I just PMd you trainer information.

He messaged me said he would be glad to help you out. 

Give him a call and maybe get a feel for if he's the right trainer for you. He is very experienced with German Shepherds.

He can also discuss exercise needs in more detail as MAWL suggests.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Even better.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sayan35 said:


> I am glad you found hope and perspective for you and chase.
> 
> Regarding the breeder: Imo the breeder has some responsibility in this case.
> 
> ...


But this is not a high energy WL GSD. The pedigree shows German Show Line all the way. Very nice GSL pedigree.

From my experience, which is limited to a few lines, German show lines, a litter might have an outlier that needs a more experienced handler, a dog that might excel in schutzhund, police work, etc, but as a pure pet might be a bit much. But the vast majority of dogs in the litter tend to be moderate energy, moderate drive dogs, that really can make it in most pet homes, even inexperienced pet homes, though they may have a bumpier journey.

I am sorry, but no. I do not think the breeder is at fault when the owner is having trouble after the dog is 20 months old, and they are now looking for help. The breeder should listen and give advice, tell them what to look for in a trainer, yes. But if an owner puts a dog on a chain in the back yard, or leave it in a crate 20 hours a day and at 20 months the dog gets loose and bites the mail man, or chews on a slipper, that isn't the breeder's fault. 

Look what you are saying, if breeders are accountable for every dog who's behavior reflects a failure in training, management, leadership, exercise, then no breeder will ever place a puppy into inexperienced hands. That may sound good to some, but really, we all have had our first GSD. And, people should be able to buy our breed for the first time.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

eh, IMO, not worth it Sue...or maybe start a thread about it in general? I'll have a couple of things to say.


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## Sayan35 (Oct 15, 2015)

@Selzer.

You are right i mist the pedigree.
I have been breeding WL Gsd's for decades.
However it does not matter if they were showlines. It is still my reponsibility to insure that my dogs go to a good home where they can thrive and be all i wanted them to be.
Buyers were verified thoroughly on experience,commitment, and why they wanted a Gsd in the first place. Many left without a pup.
For first time owners it's not enough to want a dog. A Gsd requires a Gsd owner not just a regular dog owner.
If by any reason i misjudge a buyer then i owe it to the dog i bred to do every thing in my power to help. I will even take the dog back if the situation was hopeless. 

I strongly believe that if every breeder made the same effort, then there would be much less Gsd in trouble.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Start another thread then in general. Stop second guessing over the internet.

You do NOT know both sides of this story, you do NOT know this breeder and you do NOT know the dog owner.

*The most important thing is that the dog owner stay in touch with this breeder and get the training help she needs*.



Sayan35 said:


> @Selzer.
> 
> You are right i mist the pedigree.
> I have been breeding WL Gsd's for decades.
> ...


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Very interesting thread. I'm just glad the OP seemed to have found a good trainer that works for her. Wishing the OP luck and looking forward to positive updates as Chase progresses in training. 

only one other comment.. get him off the Ace. Twice OP has seen Chase go bonkers and act like a nut job shortly after using Ace. Clear sign that it's having the opposite effect.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sayan35 said:


> @Selzer.
> 
> You are right i mist the pedigree.
> I have been breeding WL Gsd's for decades.
> ...


 Sayan, everyone, every breeder has made a mistake along the way in placing dogs. No one is perfect. Sometimes, we do second guess ourselves and let a dog go. Of course people leave without dogs. No decent breeder sends dogs home with whoever will give them the money. What is important is what happens after the owner realizes they are overmatched. 

If the owner contacts the breeder, the breeder can make some suggestions, help find a decent trainer, offer to take the dog back. I think the breeder in question was offering to help find a trainer. I think that makes the most sense at this point. So lets not trash her on that.


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

selzer said:


> . But if an owner puts a *dog on a chain in the back yard, or leave it in a crate 20 hours* a day and at 20 months the dog gets loose and bites the mail man, or chews on a slipper, that isn't the breeder's fault. .


Excuse me!! why are you shifting the subject and trying to create something that NEVER happened, where did you get the dog put on a chain in the back yard and leave it in a crate for 20 hours from????? didn't you read my posts, do you need a reading glasses, may you do? I don't even have a crate on or even chain anywhere. My dog is been treated the best way anyway can ever imagine! don't try to shift the subject to create something else away from what is this post is about, No matter what, some day, someone will benefit from my post and my experience, not all people who read this will post so please keep this post clean away from some harsh accusations that never happened.


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would be curious just to how much actual exercise this dog really gets. Even though it is a show line, not a high energy working line, just having a big back yard, tossing a ball around on occasion and leash walking is not enough.



He gets a 30 min walk in the morning and another 30 min walk mid day around noon and 3-4 times a week he gets another 30 min walk or play ball in back yard around 3:00 PM and he gets play ball for 15 min, energetic ball catch in back yard around 5:00- 6:00 PM every single day. PLUS weekend hikes.
What does your dog get?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Beachgirl said:


> Excuse me!! why are you shifting the subject and trying to create something that NEVER happened, where did you get the dog put on a chain in the back yard and leave it in a crate for 20 hours from????? didn't you read my posts, do you need a reading glasses, may you do? I don't even have a crate on or even chain anywhere. My dog is been treated the best way anyway can ever imagine! don't try to shift the subject to create something else away from what is this post is about, No matter what, some day, someone will benefit from my post and my experience, not all people who read this will post so please keep this post clean away from some harsh accusations that never happened.


 I was responding to the poster that says that the breeder is always responsible. Would the breeder be responsible in the above scenarios.

Too much discipline (abuse), restriction (abuse), etc, will cause issues in dogs. The same is true of going the compete opposite: no discipline, too much freedom. Dogs need structure. Some of the best behaved, adjusted dogs are crated or kenneled regularly. And some of the worst behaved dogs are given the run of everything. I wasn't knocking you. I was saying that by 20 months along, the problems an owner is having with their dog may not be the fault of the breeder.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Beachgirl said:


> He gets a 30 min walk in the morning and another 30 min walk mid day around noon and 3-4 times a week he gets another 30 min walk or play ball in back yard around 3:00 PM and he gets play ball for 15 min, energetic ball catch in back yard around 5:00- 6:00 PM every single day. PLUS weekend hikes.
> What does your dog get?


What does the quantity and quality of the exericise my dogs get have to do with your dog growling, biting and being out of control to the point where you are frightened of him? Alternatively, it can have a lot to do with your dog's actions.

You came here for help. People can't help you if you pick and choose what information to divulge when more is needed. I hope you are more forthcoming with your trainers without the attitude.

And you still did not answer my question, how much off leash exercise is this dog getting? Many don't consider on leash exercise as exercise for a large, high energy breed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Beachgirl said:


> He gets a 30 min walk in the morning and another 30 min walk mid day around noon and 3-4 times a week he gets another 30 min walk or play ball in back yard around 3:00 PM and he gets play ball for 15 min, energetic ball catch in back yard around 5:00- 6:00 PM every single day. PLUS weekend hikes.
> What does your dog get?


 Dogs have different exercise needs. For a typical 20 month old dog, this does not seem adequate, though I currently have 4 20 month old dogs, and they do not get as much as that. They are not having issues though. So it is not an issue for my dogs. 

When you have a dog with issues, you want to look at upping their exercise. And this is the thing, you are talking physical exercise. To tire an intelligent dog out, you need to do mental as well as physical exercise. 

Teach the dog agility -- exercises his body and mind. 

Teach him tricks -- fun/bonding/exercises his mind

Do obedience training with him -- make those walks more than just walks, back up and call him front -- do obedience routines throughout the walks. 

Play hide and seek with the dog. Make a game of finding you or finding objects. Teach him to put his toys away. Teach him to find his toys. 

Get him out there doing nosework, tracking, herding -- things that will use his instinct, intelligence, while working with you and exercising. This will exercise mind and body, and build the bond.

Try not to get defensive, because we are truly trying to help you and your dog.


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What does the quantity and quality of the exericise my dogs get have to do with your dog growling, biting and being out of control to the point where you are frightened of him? Alternatively, it can have a lot to do with your dog's actions..


You asked how much exercises my dog gets and I told you how much and then asked kindly what does your dog get out of curiosity to see what people do. My dog has super protective nature, the growling only happened one time with the dog walker who walked by his food plate, we don't know why he growled at that day, my dog is very good boy, very handsome almost to perfection! people stop me all the time to tell me, his coloring are so perfect, he is loving boy, yes he has very high energy, he is extremely intelligent, you can teach him a trick by just doing it once or twice. I may be not the right person for him, a dog like this needs very experienced owner. He needs special training that so far I was not able to provide for him. Thanks for taking the time to answer me


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## Beachgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> And you still did not answer my question, how much off leash exercise is this dog getting? Many don't consider on leash exercise as exercise for a large, high energy breed.


The ball play is off leash. The trainer that I brought on Christmas day who believes in positive communication and whatever ... told me not to play competitive with him, meaning when I'm in the backyard playing ball catch, having one ball with me and throw another one, he brings the first one and I then throw the 2nd one and so on, in the trainer opinion this is competitive play and would make the dog aggressive. And when I asked him what do I need to do, I need to have him workout and pay with him in the backyard, he said you need to have bound with him and teach him to stay calm and hang out with you! I immediately knew this trainer not for Chase, hang out!! what is the **** is he talking about? we are talking about 20 month Make GSD! just hang out doing nothing, no toys. So as you see I spent $$$$ hiring trainers and each have different opinions and along with your and the rest here, its getting so confusing.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Do you have any place you can take him swimming, do agility, or nosework?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Beachgirl, in blue, that is absolute hogwash. That is not true. Oh Gawd a positive only trainer is only going to make matters worse. 

I went through the same thing with my male shepherd (rescue though) and positive only trainers, it was an expensive disaster that set me and my dog back for years. I was confused too. 

But then I got with a really good trainer that worked with dogs in IPO, police and protection. See these trainers are really good because to work with dogs, German Shepherds especially, at that level they must be able to 'read' and really understand the dog's drives. 

*Most* positive only trainers don't have any experience with drives that a German Shepherd has and end up trying to suppress the drives rather then giving the dog a healthy outlet. German Shepherds are genetically wired to want to chase balls (prey drive), they are genetically wired to have 'appropriate' aggression (<this needs to be trained and conditioned through socialization and obedience), they often want to play tug. That's what they are bred for.

The reason it is confusing is because you are new and haven't had time and experience to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

*Please, please, please* just call the trainer I PM'd you. If he is too far away then he can refer you to someone else. Find a good trainer and then practice, practice, practice. It's the only way for you to succeed with your dog.




Beachgirl said:


> The ball play is off leash. The trainer that I brought on Christmas day *who believes in positive communication and whatever ... told me not to play competitive with him, meaning when I'm in the backyard playing ball catch, having one ball with me and throw another one, he brings the first one and I then throw the 2nd one and so on, in the trainer opinion this is competitive play and would make the dog aggressive.* And when I asked him what do I need to do, I need to have him workout and pay with him in the backyard, he said you need to have bound with him and teach him to stay calm and hang out with you! I immediately knew this trainer not for Chase, hang out!! what is the **** is he talking about? we are talking about 20 month Make GSD! just hang out doing nothing, no toys. So as you see I spent $$$$ hiring trainers and each have different opinions and along with your and the rest here, its getting so confusing.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I have dogs similar in nature to yours. I've been down the path you are going down and the confusion you feel. So I'm not trying to 'talk down' to you o.k.? This comes from a place of someone who knows how you feel. It's frustrating and scary.

So from a place of wanting to help you succeed with your dog I strongly suggest the following.

1) Please contact the trainer I PM'd you about. At least meet with him and get an evaluation.

2) Work with him or a trainer like him who has experience with German Shepherds *bred for work*. That is very important.

3) Keep Nadia in the loop. She knows her dogs and has been supportive to her other puppy owners in the past, I am friends with several.

4) Practice, practice what the trainer tells you to practice on. If you have questions or things aren't working let your trainer know so he can help you.

5) If after the above you feel this dog is too much for you and your lifestyle then at least you tried your best and consider returning him to your breeder. 

and....

The internet is a great place for advice. I learn a lot here too, but it's more for cut and dried type advice. Your problem is too entrenched with too many variables for it to be effectively and safely worked through with internet advice. 

The one professional trainer has posted also recommended finding a good trainer (Bailiff).

Many of the people posting (myself included) are not trainers on top of the fact that they are not there to really see what is going on and what your dog is doing or not doing. How you are handling him. That's why I recommend a trainer I know is good rather then telling you what to do.

With that I wish you the best of luck. I hope you can work it out and keep your gorgeous boy. If not please let Nadia know.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Beachgirl said:


> The ball play is off leash. The trainer that I brought on Christmas day who believes in positive communication and whatever ... told me not to play competitive with him, meaning when I'm in the backyard playing ball catch, having one ball with me and throw another one, he brings the first one and I then throw the 2nd one and so on, in the trainer opinion this is competitive play and would make the dog aggressive. And when I asked him what do I need to do, I need to have him workout and pay with him in the backyard, he said you need to have bound with him and teach him to stay calm and hang out with you! I immediately knew this trainer not for Chase, hang out!! what is the **** is he talking about? we are talking about 20 month Make GSD! just hang out doing nothing, no toys. So as you see I spent $$$$ hiring trainers and each have different opinions and along with your and the rest here, its getting so confusing.


There's a chance there was a little miscommunication there BGirl. No competition, calm hanging out so that you aren't just having to constantly entertain him, there's good reasons for those things. Two ball isn't really competition for a toy between you two, unless you were taking the first ball away from him, but tugging most likely would be.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

I am so sorry for your experience. I know several dogs from that litter and they are just fantastic. I love Olivia, one of her pups just competed in Eukanuba dock diving in Orlando and received Best American at a national show. 

I myself have two dogs from the kennel and obsessed with them both. 

I would work with a good trainer, who will not abuse your dog. And rule out any health concerns that could cause behavior issues such as thyroid. It can happen to any dog, any bloodline. 

Best of wishes.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Beachgirl said:


> You asked how much exercises my dog gets and I told you how much and then asked kindly what does your dog get out of curiosity to see what people do. My dog has super protective nature, the growling only happened one time with the dog walker who walked by his food plate, we don't know why he growled at that day, my dog is very good boy, very handsome almost to perfection! people stop me all the time to tell me, his coloring are so perfect, he is loving boy, yes he has very high energy, he is extremely intelligent, you can teach him a trick by just doing it once or twice. I may be not the right person for him, a dog like this needs very experienced owner. He needs special training that so far I was not able to provide for him. Thanks for taking the time to answer me


I just found it odd that out of all the questions, comments, and suggestions by other people, you only chose to target my dogs without asking anybody else about their dogs, hence my comment.

A lack of exercise, or constant confinement (leashes/fences), can cause, or manifest itself, as aggression, that is why I asked. 

I will repeat, many people do not believe that on leash exercise, or chasing a ball depending on one's skills, especially if you are a woman, is exercise for a dog with many recommending at least a chuck-it be utilized. The size of the backyard, which may seem large to you, can also be a factor if that is where you are playing ball with him.

You have been given good advice. I would take the advice of people who want to see you succeed. Gwenhwyfair has gone above and beyond to help you and your dog, please take her advice and work with her and your breeder to get the help the both of you need.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Beachgirl said:


> The ball play is off leash. The trainer that I brought on Christmas day who believes in positive communication and whatever ... told me not to play competitive with him, meaning when I'm in the backyard playing ball catch, having one ball with me and throw another one, he brings the first one and I then throw the 2nd one and so on, in the trainer opinion this is competitive play and would make the dog aggressive. And when I asked him what do I need to do, I need to have him workout and pay with him in the backyard, he said you need to have bound with him and teach him to stay calm and hang out with you! I immediately knew this trainer not for Chase, hang out!! what is the **** is he talking about? we are talking about 20 month Make GSD! just hang out doing nothing, no toys. So as you see I spent $$$$ hiring trainers and each have different opinions and along with your and the rest here, its getting so confusing.


I'm frustrated with this thread. I spent a lot of time researching the trainer who was kind enough to come out and help you on a holiday. He made progress with Chase immediately, but you are writing him off because you don't understand what he means by "hang out." Did you ask him? I PMd you the name of a trainer in your general area who I heard is very good. I see others did too, yet you haven't found a trainer? Why not? I apologize in advance if this is insensitive, but the problem isn't with the trainer. If you want this resolved, find a trainer, commit to working with the person and stick with it. Your responses are the reason I don't like to post in threads like this. In my first professional career, part of my job was to give people suggestions on how to make certain problems better and I finally got out of it because I found they wanted quick fixes without investment on their part. There are no quick fixes and there are no perfect trainers. If I was closer, I would use Eran. He looks like an awesome and competent trainer.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Actually I agree with LuvShepherds. Especially in aggression cases people want to hear that nothing is wrong and usually defend their dog's behavior. Add the internet where they get free and often really good advice (this forum) and the mess continues.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't know Beachgirl. When you posted your message for help on Christmas day, it sounded like you were in a very bad situation. I PM'd Bailiff a trainer to see if he could help. He gave recommendations. How are those working out?

I had suggested that you really choose a trainer wisely this time and actually check on any recommendations given by the potential trainer. Bailiff suggested ways to calm the situation in order to buy you the time to choose your help wisely.....

I don't see where any of that happened.....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Beachgirl said:


> , its getting so confusing.


Yes ...yes it is. But I have to say you've already impressed and astonished a lot of us, so there is that! So take a breath and relax a bit. 

But ... one thing ... I thing ... you may have "misinterpreted" what the trainer was telling you with the "Chill with the dog thing??"

This is in my post with links but I'll post it directly ...because yeah I post a lot of links.

I think it better explains the "chill" thing "Sit on the Dog"and "Place Command" first link in here on the "Chill" thing:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


And as someone else suggested also lose the "Ace" derivative, clearly it does not work for your dog. 

And as I am want to do ... I found clips on the "Resource Guarding" thing so *"keeping in mind the advise given to you by the "Pros'"* I can post them if you like?? You would at least know what to look for.

All I do is provide "information" people are free to do with as they see fit.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm frustrated with this thread. I spent a lot of time researching the trainer who was kind enough to come out and help you on a holiday. He made progress with Chase immediately, but you are writing him off because you don't understand what he means by "hang out." Did you ask him? I PMd you the name of a trainer in your general area who I heard is very good. I see others did too, yet you haven't found a trainer? Why not? I apologize in advance if this is insensitive, but the problem isn't with the trainer. If you want this resolved, find a trainer, commit to working with the person and stick with it. Your responses are the reason I don't like to post in threads like this. In my first professional career, part of my job was to give people suggestions on how to make certain problems better and I finally got out of it because I found they wanted quick fixes without investment on their part. There are no quick fixes and there are no perfect trainers. If I was closer, I would use Eran. He looks like an awesome and competent trainer.


I understand your frustration, the guy strikes me as sound also.

I tried to "break" down the "chill" thing for her. 

But unlike some newbies" she did start early to look for help and got some bad advise and followed it and her husband got hurt and yeah others got hurt. Then they spent a lot of money getting more bad "training" and "advice!"

A "Perfect Storm" as it were ... so now ... "everybody" looks to be about the same to her and they are all incompetent?

The OP did not sign up to be a "Dog Trainer" that is why she "hired" one?? But it did not work, now she knows all Trainers do not work or same way. 

So she is still kinda freaked, I tend to agree with you and others ... it sounds like she should stick with Christmas guy. 


So that is three for X-mas guy! But not our call.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would work with Christmas guy for 6-8 weeks. Keep a daily journal on the the dog's behavior, walks, exercise, training, comments, and set a goal. After 6 or 8 weeks, check back to where you were and look at where you are, and see if it is helping or not, and if it is doing what you expected.

Sometimes our expectations are unrealistic and we have to adjust them. But sometimes we just don't see the progress because we are living through it, and small changes do not look like much until they build up, and then they are huge.

You have to be open minded to become good at training. Someone said that you didn't sign up to be a trainer, but you bought a GSD. So, really, you did. ALL GSDs need training, and the person that needs to do the training is the owner. The person we pay, we are paying to train us to train the dog. 

So we have to be open to see what we are doing wrong and what we could do better. Otherwise, you are wasting your money, and wasting your dog. 

Good luck.

ETA: In therapy there is a saying about not having gotten this way overnight. You don't fix these things overnight. What you are looking for is progress. No one has a magic wand that will make this problem go away. Cesar can't come to your house and fix your dog in 30 minutes or less like he does on the TV. This is a process. A journey. There is no hurry to get to the goal, because then you just have to move the goal another 100 yards or so down and start something new. I think that sometimes it is better to take your time and get a good foundation.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's up to Linda (OP) which trainer she chooses. I agree with SV, research the trainers, have an evaluation and then choose the one that is best. That's why I suggested and evaluation first.

*Ideally* the breeder could also recommend a trainer, as she offered, that knows WGSLs better too.

But- This sounds like a PO trainer, lots of PO buzz words. "Competitive play", "positive communication".

"*in the trainer opinion this is competitive play and would make the dog aggressive."*

Playing two ball does not make a dog aggressive.

It's on Linda how she wants to proceed.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I would work with Christmas guy for 6-8 weeks. Keep a daily journal on the the dog's behavior, walks, exercise, training, comments, and set a goal. After 6 or 8 weeks, check back to where you were and look at where you are, and see if it is helping or not, and if it is doing what you expected.
> 
> Sometimes our expectations are unrealistic and we have to adjust them. But sometimes we just don't see the progress because we are living through it, and small changes do not look like much until they build up, and then they are huge.
> 
> ...


WOW ... I'm keeping track so that's four votes for Christmas guy! 

To add to the above ... OP the most important thing this dog needs right now, is as "Seltzer" said "time" and you have given him that ... much to our surprise!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's "Selzer" Chip.

And if "Christmas guy" is PO I definitely vote no, not that it counts.

Anyhoo....good luck Linda.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It's "Selzer" Chip.
> 
> And if "Christmas guy" is PO I definitely vote no, not that it counts.
> 
> Anyhoo....good luck Linda.


 Thanks, yeah, it is selzer, that's my name.

Most PO people are PM at the most. I don't really believe there is any such thing as PO. Perhaps, this trainer listened to the whole story, and decided, like I think, that trying to physically force this dog to comply and behave is going to be bad. You are not going to make a great dog out of this animal by brute force. Sorry. 

If the dog is WGSL, they do very good with good PR training. I rarely use more than a verbal negative marker or a change in tone with my dogs. Works just fine. But as with any training, you have to be consistent, and have good timing. 

I really don't have enough experience with working line dogs. This is not a working line dog. But if working line dogs cannot be managed using Positive Mostly training, then who would want them? Really? 

We have already tried the alpha roll crap, and yank on the prong collar crap with this dog (or was it the other youngster?). Hope I am not getting them mixed up. If we are getting results with a regimen of positive training methods, why not???

Just because it didn't work with one of your dogs, doesn't mean it will not work with this one. This is a young dog that needs a better bond with the owners, and trust needs to be reestablished. It can be done with any training method that is predictable, clear, well-timed, and that the OWNER is willing to try/accept/believe in. 

Positive is not permissive. Too many people do not get that, and their dogs suffer because of it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> "*in the trainer opinion this is competitive play and would make the dog aggressive."*
> 
> Playing two ball does not make a dog aggressive.
> 
> It's on Linda how she wants to proceed.


I wondered about this, if "agitated" may not have been the word intended instead of aggressive. That would make more sense as there is a bit of frustration in two ball - the minute they think they have captured the "trophy" the trophy has changed....

If this trainer meant that and "hang out" was really a kind of modified two week time out to help reset this dog - I could understand what he is trying to do.... just a little time keeping the dog out of any kind of agitated state....


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

OP- my thoughts are that at some point instead of hiring people to do the work for you, you just need to get out there, get your hands dirty, and work and manage the dog you have in front of you. It will be difficult, sometimes you'll fail or have bad days, but when you succeed, it is an incredible joy. Training is a lifetime deal, though. There are no simple fixes. 

Be aware, some of this is just management. For example, I have a bunch of family for the holidays, and one of my dogs simply does not have contact with them. Ever. It is not that hard. I want everyone both safe and happy. This dog would probably just bark at them, and I could certainly put him in OB mode and have him out and about with the family, but it's a completely unnecessary risk. Knowing your dog is half the battle.

My other dogs can go out and play fetch with the kids, and even tug. Not this one. That's fine- it's not necessary. Likewise, maybe your dog doesn't need to greet guests. That's OK. I am very clear with family that one of my dogs is not for petting. Totally OK, it would be much worse if I wasn't clear and there was an issue. You don't need to make excuses. While I'd prefer my dogs were fine with guests, I can't wave a wand and fix it. Really not an easy fix. Manage it.

I understand the difficulty in finding a good trainer. I've been there, searching for help with a type of dog I've never worked with before. I actually never ended up hiring a trainer because I never found one locally who I could work with. I sought out help from reliable, experienced sources, tried a few different things, messed up a few times, tried something else, messed up again, and then finally broke through and got it and we clicked. I still make mistakes in training, I still need advice, but I now have the tools and knowledge of the dog mind and how training works to know what I need to do- the trick is sometimes just following through and being consistent. 

There are some great books out there, too, and quite a few good videos as well. Read a couple good training books, watch a few good videos, but spend most of your time working with the dog! That is how you'll learn. Nobody can teach you that part. 

Finally, I researched ACE a lot one time because I carried it as a sedative just in case on long backpacking trips. I would never, never use it unless I had no other choice. It is a scary drug- my understanding is the dog is very aware but his body won't respond. Vets say it increases the risk of bites because the dog loses inhibitions. Not at all what I'd recommend as a daily sedative. In fact I'd consider it irresponsible of the vet to prescribe it for that use, honestly. 

But if training for the life of the dog isn't what you wanted, I'd return him to the breeder. Please don't ever send this dog to Animal Control. Shepherds in general don't do well at the pound. I'm guessing there is a clause in your puppy contract on breeder first refusal. The breeder is your best resource right now.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

"Selzer not Seltzer" my bad.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> I wondered about this, if "agitated" may not have been the word intended instead of aggressive. That would make more sense as there is a bit of frustration in two ball - the minute they think they have captured the "trophy" the trophy has changed....
> 
> If this trainer meant that and "hang out" was really a kind of modified two week time out to help reset this dog - I could understand what he is trying to do.... just a little time keeping the dog out of any kind of agitated state....


It is possible. I agree, though I'm still leaning PO.

In general (not directed at you SV)

Ideally Linda should be working with her breeder. Her breeder offered to help find a trainer and she would know how to help better then us. My guess is, knowing the breeder and the trainers she works with she would recommend a trainer involved with GSDs and IPO, for good reason.

The only reason I got involved is because I'm familiar with the breeder, her dogs and had some connections that could help.

What's done is done. I tried my best to help. Now it's up to Linda to decide.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Eran is not Positive Only fyi


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

My breeder told me that tug and flirt pole would make my fear aggressive dog worse. Not so.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would not play tug with a dog who has resource guarding/aggression issues. Resource guarding can go from food to toys to people. Tug can be used to increase confidence in dogs and it is not necessarily bad, but I wouldn't use it in this case.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I'm worried that the OP sounds desperate and we don't make good decisions when we are out of control. If she doesn't like that trainer, then find another one, but do it quickly. The longer this goes on, the more stress she is feeling and expressing to her dog. I'm more worried about the dog. The OP has options, the dog doesn't. He needs to be trained soon or she is going to want to give him up. I've been where she is with a dog that was out of control. I interviewed several trainers, talked to rescue people I respected, then chose the one with the most experience with our exact situation. The trainer isn't a warm, fuzzy type. I've talked to people who dislike his personality. I didn't care, he loves dogs and he is good with behavior problems and his methods work. That dog has passed on but I still use the methods I learned with the dogs I have now.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Consider me another vote for you to please keep working with this trainer, OP.

I don't get why so many are piling on over the fact that OP here has:

(1) found a trainer with a long track record of successfully making GSDs adoptable for the largest GSD rescue in So Cal -- no rescue bothers with a trainer who gets no results with difficult dogs because of the liability, so if they recommend him and trust him, it's because of success. Period.

(2) found a trainer who cared enough to help on a holiday, when most don't answer the phone--that says he lives for his work, and cares more about helping a dog than his time off

(3) found a trainer who seemed to "click" with what this dog needed instantly in the first session.

For what it's worth, he was one of two names *I* PM'd to her because of my GSD rescue contacts in So Cal. * All the criticism of her for actually working with the guy who called her back is probably undermining her confidence and commitment in following through*. That honestly SUCKS. 

There are people here who could and would criticize ANY training style. They seem to loathe any style that they haven't used. Or that doesn't work for their personal dog. Or that their trainer has said bad stuff about, never mind if that person has ever used it. There are MANY training styles that get results, and some are better for this dog but not some other dog. The real magic happens when someone is fluent with enough different modalities and reading different dogs to be able to intuit what will work best for each dog in front of them. 

His training style may not be YOUR cup of tea. It may not be what works for YOUR dog. He may not be YOUR personal friend. I don't know him personally either. All I know is the rescue people *who've worked with him* thinks he gets results.

Settle down and let them work together. He's there, looking at the dog in front of him. We aren't. What worked for YOUR dog may not be what THIS dog needs -- someone needs to make the judgment call based on the dog in front of him. 

If after a few weeks, things aren't going better, OP can keep going down the list of names sent to her, and maybe someone else will call her back. For now, she's in the hands of someone who "gets" that a life is at stake. Let him work and please stop beating up the OP for not picking someone else. He may be the right trainer, or he may not be. But he's there, has helped other dogs with issues successfully, and has a real chance of doing something here.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This all sounds good and having back up list of recommended trainers is much help if needed. I do agree with the acepromizine it is most likely doing more harm then good, find about and research the side effects of this drug.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Magwart said:


> Consider me another vote for you to please keep working with this trainer, OP.
> 
> I don't get why so many are piling on over the fact that OP here has:
> 
> ...


Well ... I do have more to say. But ... for now I will simply say ... "Thank You" and well put!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ya. As is typical with things like this people don't know the whole story. 

I've tried to remain in a supportive tone here, but that doesn't mean I haven't ignored the underlying problems.

If anyone is undermining here it IS the OP, herself.

Just because the breeder didn't drop her holiday plans and fly out to California, all heck breaks loose. What would have been a lot less undermining would have been for the two people who actually know the dog in person had continued to work together as a team.

Instead Linda starts a thread bashing the breeder based on sayan's post which had to be deleted.

Yeah, Chip, probably I won't win a popularity poll posting this. But live long and prosper.

Further, in general, *nothing against the trainer as people have stated he is NOT PO.*.

Positive only trainers have probably set more dog owners and dogs up to fail then any other dog training fad including Cesar Milan and the whole alpha business. 

I've been burned by PO and I've witnessed too many dog owners disempowered and failing because they've been guilted into failure by the PO craze. A craze which thankfully seems to be finally waning.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think everyone is just to stuck on any one method of training. Positive can work well if done right, I've done it multiple times and my most obedient dog was trained with that method. Some dogs require more, some require a mix. I think that everyone's opinions are more confusing then anything. The bottom line is that the OP needs to find a trainer that they are comfortable with and it might not even be one, it might be two or three. The OP has to decide and take whatever they feel will work from each trainer. I've been down this road with trainers and I ended up using a method from each one and got a perfect dog. The most important thing is for the OP to find out by evaluation what they are dealing with so they know what they need to do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Muskeg said:


> Finally, I researched ACE a lot one time because I carried it as a sedative just in case on long backpacking trips. I would never, never use it unless I had no other choice. It is a scary drug- my understanding is the dog is very aware but his body won't respond. Vets say it increases the risk of bites because the dog loses inhibitions. Not at all what I'd recommend as a daily sedative. In fact I'd consider it irresponsible of the vet to prescribe it for that use, honestly.


ACE is a nasty drug. No idea where the OP got her hands on it, I don't now a single vet that would prescribe it for general use, but she needs to dump it. The behavior she say 1.5 hours after giving it is no uncommon. This is NOT a "calming" drug. Period. If you want a "calming" drug then talk to your vet about prozac.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> ACE is a nasty drug. No idea where the OP got her hands on it, I don't now a single vet that would prescribe it for general use, but she needs to dump it. The behavior she say 1.5 hours after giving it is no uncommon. This is NOT a "calming" drug. Period. If you want a "calming" drug then talk to your vet about prozac.


And I believe that most vets will require a consultation with a behaviorist before they will give Prozac. At least that was my experience and I appreciated that the vet wasn't just going to drug a dog without knowing what the underlying issues are.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> ACE is a nasty drug. No idea where the OP got her hands on it, I don't now a single vet that would prescribe it for general use, but she needs to dump it. The behavior she say 1.5 hours after giving it is no uncommon. This is NOT a "calming" drug. Period. If you want a "calming" drug then talk to your vet about prozac.



Yes she should stop the acepromazine immediately. It is being misused and she needs to learn what the negative effects are. I think german shepherds are also very sensitive and negatively affected by this drug.

http://www.rileysplace.org/dogblog/...zine-aka-ace-for-thunder-phobia-or-fireworks/


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

llombardo said:


> And I believe that most vets will require a consultation with a behaviorist before they will give Prozac. At least that was my experience and I appreciated that the vet wasn't just going to drug a dog without knowing what the underlying issues are.


Whatever. The point to my post was STOP ACING THE DOG. I'm horrified that she was even able to get ACE to use in that capacity.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Whatever. The point to my post was STOP ACING THE DOG. I'm horrified that she was even able to get ACE to use in that capacity.


Oh I agree. I had a vet give it to one of my dogs many many years ago, I don't think I've heard a vet suggest it in a long time.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

yes, low doses of ace can cause the effect in which the OP has experienced - some describe this as "rage". with an "appropriate" or higher dose of ace the dogs still experiences the same (or increased) level of fear/anxiety/anger/stress/etc... however they can no longer express it physically. its a sedative/tranquilizer... appeases many owners since the dog appears calm but internally they are in agony and often confused which can then increase the fear etc.

that said, it has its place... this case is not it!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And you can plainly see that panic and fear in their eyes. We had to use something similar for a dog to get stitches once. Never again. It was traumatic for her. And seeing her panic as she came out of it was horrifying for us.

OP - if the behaviorist things the dog will benefit from anti-anxiety drugs then discuss those drugs with your vet. But not a sedative like Ace.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> Depends on the information provided. If there is video of a behavior or a good explanation then the cause of the aggression can be determined.
> 
> If people want to discover something about there dogs behaviors and are persistent then they can get answers/ theories/ techniques which will help them.
> 
> ...


Hey I got advice from an Ex Military handler ... worked out fine!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I've been burned by PO and I've witnessed too many dog owners disempowered and failing because they've been guilted into failure by the PO craze. A craze which thankfully seems to be finally waning.


Sorry that happened and with dog with "serious" scare the crap of people and attack dogs.

Yes.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I mentioned about the Ace earlier as well.

IMO. 

She doesn't have the time (complaining about costs of hiring a dog walker), hiring a dog walker when she is home.

She doesn't keep up with training and sends the dog to 'boot camp'. 

Dog comes back somethings wrong, it's boot camp trainer's fault.

She is swinging between she failed the dog, then she's spending too much money on the dog and getting really bad advice (ace for one).

Then blaming the breeder, then when I post I know of the breeder she says loves the breeder and would recommend the breeder. 

Then "sayan" posts the breeder is responsible and she agrees and starts threads bashing the breeder. 

She's all over the place and the poor dog is stuck in the middle of this.

It probably would be best for the dog to go back to the breeder.

I don't think any trainer can help because I really don't think the problem is the dog here.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Sorry that happened and with dog with "serious" scare the crap of people and attack dogs.
> 
> Yes.


Ugh my mouse sticks! I was trying to "say" PO, and dogs with serious "serious" scare the crap of people and attack other dogs issues." Are in over there heads. People, should understand that not all "trainers" operate from the same POV.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Ace can be a great option if it doesn't negatively affect the dog. I used with with my fear biter and it made him calm and approachable. I tried it once with another dog who had a fear of bathing based on the vet's suggestion and it was not a good experience. That dog will never get it again. I learned about meds from owning a very sick, elderly dog, years ago, that what works for one case won't work for another, and we shouldn't be prescribing or dissing any meds unless we are vets ourselves and trained in the use of them. It obviously isn't working for this dog and should be disposed of.

I said earlier the problem isn't with the trainer and I agree with Gwen, it's not with the dog or the breeder, either.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Ace is a very bad choice for stressed and fearful dogs. It is solely a sedative. So the dog is aware of all the fearful things happening but cannot physically react. 

Xanax is a much better choice. It actually is an anti anxiety.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Is the OP even still here  ?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Neko said:


> Is the OP even still here  ?


Heck no! Would you be? Last thing she said, she was overwhelmed by all the different/conflicting suggestions here and everywhere.....

But as you can see - it matters little.....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I do believe so?? Most likely she thinks we'er all kind of "nutty."


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Feel bad for her and the pup. That dog is related to mine.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Neko said:


> Feel bad for her and the pup. That dog is related to mine.


I'm sorry, hopefully it all work out.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Neko said:


> Feel bad for her and the pup. That dog is related to mine.


Maybe it wouldn't hurt to reach out and send her a PM? If she knows there's a relation. You might be able to give her some support and help her get some kind of focus


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> Maybe it wouldn't hurt to reach out and send her a PM? If she knows there's a relation. You might be able to give her some support and help her get some kind of focus


I am not really a trainer and don't want to add to the mess  I am very fortunate with my two goofballs.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Neko said:


> I am not really a trainer and don't want to add to the mess  I am very fortunate with my two goofballs.


I hear you Neko - well, if she's still reading, I hopes she takes the good and leaves the bad and keeps on trying. I think she just needed some time to get a new plan going and didn't allow herself that. People need "time outs" too


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Imagine what this has been like for the dog, first.

He is the most innocent and most traumatized by all of this. It his life that is on the line here, literally. He's already bitten people. 

Maybe, if everyone had said she needs to work with the breeder, find a trainer, with the breeder (which was my first and repeated suggestion) which would have been the best and safest course to validate, this thread wouldn't have turned into a tug of war of competing ideas and beliefs. The breeder is very good and cares about her dogs. The breeder offered to help! Isn't it logical when there are several people here who can vouch for the breeder, who know the breeder personally and the type of dogs she breeds that We shouldn't be undermine the breeder here?! 

When she posted the thread bashing the breeder she lost her "benefit of the doubt" with me. 

She didn't post for help, she posted to get validation that this wasn't her fault, "really". Yeah she said she takes responsibility but the second someone fed her an inch of "well not all your fault" she takes it and runs with it.

Poor dog, this poor dog. That's what I keep thinking. The human is going to be fine in the long run, no matter what.

"When someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time". Maya Angelou.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Neko said:


> I am not really a trainer and don't want to add to the mess  I am very fortunate with my two goofballs.


You also trained, learned, adapted and put the work in with your trainers and breeders.

Raising and training a dog is not something that can be foisted off to "boot camps" and "dog walkers". You stuck it out through the tough times, you learned and applied that learning daily. I remember. You and your husband deserve credit for that.

Therefore it could also be said, your dogs are very fortunate to have you!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Wondering if the OP is still lurking and if there is any update on her guy..


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