# Peer reviewed scientific study on clicker training horses



## glowingtoadfly

Clicker Research Challenges | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
I found the "behavioral side effects" of clicker training on the horses particularly interesting.


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## Sri

:thumbup: 

I have found there definitely is something calming about the clicker sound to my dog. We have taken him on pack walks(he is dog reactive) after a 5 minute session of clicking and rewarding calmness and focus on me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Peer reviewed where?

All I see is a synopsis of a 'study' embedded in the article. I'll look at it again but it's interesting that Karen Pryor gets all excited about having a 'scientific peer reviewed' study? I thought she already had loads of peer reviewed scientific studies to support her beliefs?

eta:



> I'm happy, therefore, to be able to tell you about the publication of what I believe is the first data-based clicker-training research paper to appear in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. The paper describes the thesis research done by Dawnery Ferguson for a master's degree in behavior analysis from the University of North Texas.


 Yeah, embellishing somewhat...me thinks. I don't know exactly how peer reviewed this is, given it's for a master's but it's about time that some studies were done. 

I've had a just a bit....of experience with this problem, loading horses.

If you want to use the clicker method and it works for you, great.

Me, I've used different methods depending on the horse. There's many, many different ways of training horses to load successfully.

Usually I've found just lunging them for a bit when they refuse to load works for a lot of horses. You load or you work. Usually they pick loading.

I had an abused off the track TB that was insanely difficult to load I used John Lyons method, which is gentle persistence in a nutshell.

I'm NOT a fan of clicker training horses because I have personally witnessed once well mannered horses turn into obnoxious spoilt 1000 pound brats and 1000 pound spoilt obnoxious brats are very dangerous.

My last farrier dropped clients who started clicker training their horses because horses that previously would stand quietly to be trimmed/shod started acting out. Not because he cared what training method the owner used it's just that the horses no longer would stand safely while he was working with them. A farrier doesn't have time to click and praise when he's got a hot shoe in tongs in one hand and holding the horses hoof in another. He can't afford to get hurt and not work, so he just stopped shoeing those horses.

Maybe these people were just not doing the clicker training correctly, I don't know but my experience has been if it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

> I’ve always liked to learn, so I wasn’t the kind of person who would simply discover one method and devote everything to it. I believe that each horse is different and different methods work better for different horses. I want to have more than just one tool in my toolbox. So I didn’t stop when I discovered clicker training. I kept searching for new methods. I discovered that Rainy excelled at clicker training while Breezy hated it. At that point I was told that I was wrong – one of my horses could absolutely not hate clicker training because all horses loved it since it was the only humane way to train. I disagreed, and that’s when I started noticing the darker side of the clicker community.
> 
> In my search for new methods, I started learning to train with pressure and release more effectively (which Breezy excelled at) and I started exploring unique techniques like SATS


 Why I Started Clicker Training, Why I Quit Clicker Training, and What I Learned From It - Riding Rain Quarter Horses

read on what happens to the author when she ventures away from clicker training...interesting read.


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## glowingtoadfly

> The authors wrote: "Target training and shaping were effective in training the five horses to load into a trailer without the use of punishment or negative reinforcement. The horses' loading generalized to other trailers and to other trainers, including the owner. Although no procedures were implemented to decrease the undesired behaviors that occurred during baseline, they disappeared soon after trailer training began."Furthermore, the authors point out, undesirable behaviors also decreased outside of the training situation. The mares who once fled to the far side of the field when they saw a person with a halter became more than easy to catch: they came up to the gate and put their heads in the halters voluntarily. They started cooperating around the barn and in other situations. They became, one might say, friendly
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have any experience with horses, besides being obsessed with them as a child and taking a few riding lessons, so it is interesting to hear from someone who knows horses. What interested me about this study, as it pertains to dogs, was that "undesirable behaviors decreased outside of the training situation". It does not seem that the horses in the study became spoiled brats, quite the opposite-they became more friendly and began to volunteer behaviors like putting their heads in halters. Something I have noticed with my own dogs is that they will both offer behaviors that have been instilled with a clicker or marker in other situations. For example, Grim wants to chase bicycles, so I have started feeding him treats and asking him to sit each time one goes by. He is beginning now to offer to look at me when he sees a bicycle. Not every time, but we are working on shaping an alternate behavior to lunging at bicyclists  There were five horses in the study, which is a small group. I'd be interested to see this study extended to dogs with problem behaviors, and have a larger sample size. I'm sure the results would be interesting.
Click to expand...


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## Gwenhwyfair

Well that's what one master's student at small TX college has come up with. As far as 'studies' I wouldn't call it ground breaking. It's a master's thesis.....

If you read the blog I posted and the comments posted beneath it you'll find in practice it's not all it's chalked up to be in the hands of many horse owners.

Besides where's all the 'science' people are touting about clicker method?

Karen Pryor herself is all excited because this is the 'first' study?

Ya know I really, really, really don't care what method people choose. But when someone lauds something to be what it's not that gets my Baloney radar going and I don't like baloney.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I thought this lady (Rebecca @ 04/22/2014 18:01) put it well in the blog I linked above:



> It's not just the bullying behavior, but the "if it's not working for you, you MUST not be using it right" attitude.
> 
> I am a dog trainer, a horse woman, and I have spent most of my life working with and training exotic animals. I'm very familiar with the science of clicker . . . and the flaws in the research.
> 
> I see what the clicker-only revolution has done to dog training. It's come to the point that today, a group stay is considered dangerous. Why? Because people can't seem to train a reliable stay. (Also, in with the positive-movement came a belief that ANY dog can do ANYTHING but I'm sorry, some things just shouldn't be rehab projects.)
> 
> I currently have 2 dogs who are not happy clicker trainers. One gets rather annoyed when you don't tell him what you want. He HATES the guessing game, the uncertainty if it all. I have another that came to me with some issues, and from day one, we've likened him more to a horse than a dog. He seems to excel when we use the pressure and release techniques of horsemanship, as opposed to the hands-off approach of clicker.
> 
> It's not always the trainer, sometimes . . . it's the dog. But I think they're afraid to learn that their technique isn't 100% perfect. It has it's place, it works for many situations and animals. But not all. And that is OKAY. It's not just the bullying behavior, but the "if it's not working for you, you MUST not be using it right" attitude.
> 
> I am a dog trainer, a horse woman, and I have spent most of my life working with and training exotic animals. I'm very familiar with the science of clicker . . . and the flaws in the research.
> 
> I see what the clicker-only revolution has done to dog training. It's come to the point that today, a group stay is considered dangerous. Why? Because people can't seem to train a reliable stay. (Also, in with the positive-movement came a belief that ANY dog can do ANYTHING but I'm sorry, some things just shouldn't be rehab projects.)
> 
> I currently have 2 dogs who are not happy clicker trainers. One gets rather annoyed when you don't tell him what you want. He HATES the guessing game, the uncertainty if it all. I have another that came to me with some issues, and from day one, we've likened him more to a horse than a dog. He seems to excel when we use the pressure and release techniques of horsemanship, as opposed to the hands-off approach of clicker.
> 
> It's not always the trainer, sometimes . . . it's the dog. But I think they're afraid to learn that their technique isn't 100% perfect. It has it's place, it works for many situations and animals. But not all. And that is OKAY.


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## LoveEcho

Just a side note- it can absolutely be peer reviewed even if it's "just" a master's thesis... if she submitted to a journal, it's reviewed. I had my master's thesis published in a big-time peer-reviewed journal. 



Anywho, I agree with everything else, for sure. I also used John Lyons methods with my OTTB who was a very pushy, very defensive mare and had great success. When I got her she was so pushy (and dangerous) that I essentially started from scratch, on the ground, and basically practiced horsey NILIF- she didn't so much as move an inch without my say so. Boundaries are SO important with horses like that. 



I've heard from a handful of people who tried clicker training and ended up with horses displaying OCD behavior, as well... horses can be pretty prone to adopting superstitious behavior. 









Gwenhwyfair said:


> Peer reviewed where?
> 
> 
> 
> All I see is a synopsis of a 'study' embedded in the article. I'll look at it again but it's interesting that Karen Pryor gets all excited about having a 'scientific peer reviewed' study? I thought she already had loads of peer reviewed scientific studies to support her beliefs?
> 
> 
> 
> eta:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, embellishing somewhat...me thinks. I don't know exactly how peer reviewed this is, given it's for a master's but it's about time that some studies were done.
> 
> 
> 
> I've had a just a bit....of experience with this problem, loading horses.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to use the clicker method and it works for you, great.
> 
> 
> 
> Me, I've used different methods depending on the horse. There's many, many different ways of training horses to load successfully.
> 
> 
> 
> Usually I've found just lunging them for a bit when they refuse to load works for a lot of horses. You load or you work. Usually they pick loading.
> 
> 
> 
> I had an abused off the track TB that was insanely difficult to load I used John Lyons method, which is gentle persistence in a nutshell.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm NOT a fan of clicker training horses because I have personally witnessed once well mannered horses turn into obnoxious spoilt 1000 pound brats and 1000 pound spoilt obnoxious brats are very dangerous.
> 
> 
> 
> My last farrier dropped clients who started clicker training their horses because horses that previously would stand quietly to be trimmed/shod started acting out. Not because he cared what training method the owner used it's just that the horses no longer would stand safely while he was working with them. A farrier doesn't have time to click and praise when he's got a hot shoe in tongs in one hand and holding the horses hoof in another. He can't afford to get hurt and not work, so he just stopped shoeing those horses.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe these people were just not doing the clicker training correctly, I don't know but my experience has been if it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Understood and I don't mean to imply it's 'nothing'.  But as I mentioned above it's not ground breaking it's the 'first' peer reviewed study  and it was published in "Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis". 

In blue, yup, very well put. I really don't want to say 'no' to any method a person chooses to use but with horses I have just seen it end up badly too many times that I just contain myself! 



LoveEcho said:


> Just a side note- it can absolutely be peer reviewed even if it's "just" a master's thesis... if she submitted to a journal, it's reviewed. I had my master's thesis published in a big-time peer-reviewed journal.
> 
> Anywho, I agree with everything else, for sure. I also used John Lyons methods with my OTTB who was a very pushy, very defensive mare and had great success. When I got her she was so pushy (and dangerous) that I essentially started from scratch, on the ground, and basically practiced horsey NILIF- she didn't so much as move an inch without my say so. Boundaries are SO important with horses like that.
> 
> I've heard from a handful of people who tried clicker training and ended up with horses displaying OCD behavior, as well... horses can be pretty prone to adopting superstitious behavior.
> 
> I guess I can think of a couple of horses who might respond well to basic clicker training, but honestly, I don't think horses really "think" like that.


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## glowingtoadfly

The Best Animal Trainers in History: Interview with Bob and Marian Bailey, Part 1 | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
Here is an interview with the founders of clicker training, who studied with B. F. Skinner. Using a sound to predict a reward goes back to Pavlov's research.


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## glowingtoadfly

Keller and Marian Breland Create the Field of Applied Animal Psychology | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
More on the founders of clicker training and the science behind it.


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## glowingtoadfly

(some) of the founders of clicker training....


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## Gwenhwyfair

There's nothing wrong with using 'less' aversives (per your link above).

Here's the thing, if you can get the results you want with your dogs more power to you.

BUT if you cannot or do not get the results are YOU going to be willing to shift gears and try something different?

Some people can (re: horse trainer I linked to), some people can't.

Time will tell.

I *generally* don't recommend clicker training with horses because it does have a tendency to back fire and can be dangerous when applied to the real world, average horse owners......


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## LoveEcho

I know and understand the history of clicker training and how it works. I'm saying I've never seen it used very successfully with horses and think for most horses there are more effective and equally humane training methods. If that is because people aren't doing it correctly (with a horse, the timing is very difficult), or the behaviors they're trying to create or curb, that depends on each scenario. 


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## Gwenhwyfair

What I don't understand is why they are trying SO hard to prove clicker training is the end all be all?

I've worked with dozens of horses that wouldn't load over the years (a couple were mine and some were owned by buddies/at the board barn and we were helping out). 

There's plenty of methods out there that work and are humane so why the need to re-invent the wheel? 

I just don't get it. 

I'd put up the John Lyon's method over clicker training any day and bet the results will be as good if not better with horses.


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## Kaimeju

Maybe Pryor is excited because it is a study of behavior modification "in the field?" The studies on operant conditioning in lab animals have limited application to dog training because none of us live in a Skinner box. Maybe this study helps alleviate those limitations. Just a guess.

I'm pretty sure the journal in question is peer-reviewed.


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## glowingtoadfly

I am just now beginning to research clicker training's history and the science behind it. I started out with my first personally owned dog, Skadi, who came home very hand shy and responded well to a clicker training protocol to teach her to accept being touched. We were instructed by our behaviorist to sit next to her when she was lying on the floor and touch the floor near her paws, and click and treat as we removed the hand. (She had a growly response to being touched, so removing the hand was negatively reinforcing, and she would flinch and look nervous when we touched the floor at first). Slowly, we progressed to clicking and treating and touching her head and feet with the same protocol. We moved at a slow pace and she picked up on this quickly and soon got to the point where she was lying down on the floor when she saw the treat pouch, expecting to work on her hand shyness and looking forward to being touched. She became very relaxed during touching in this way and not so hypervigilant. Now, she will come up to us for petting without treats involved. Sometimes she will still growl, but she has definitely improved. I'm not sure there is a better way than clicker training for this particular purpose.


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## Gwenhwyfair

This is Josh Lyons (John Lyon's son) teaching a horse to load. Note how dangerous this can be and how he teaches the horse with a mild aversive (tap of the dressage whip) but mostly just teaches the horse forward and backing up cues. Then applies it to loading on the trailer. He rewards the horse with pats and praise but mostly lets the horse figure it out *with* boundaries. The horse is not made to feel trapped by being allowed to back off the trailer.

So what's wrong with this? The horse in the video below was loading after 45 minutes of work. 

This method worked really well with my skittish OTTB. 

Josh Lyons Trailer Loading - YouTube


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## glowingtoadfly

Kaimeju said:


> Maybe Pryor is excited because it is a study of behavior modification "in the field?" The studies on operant conditioning in lab animals have limited application to dog training because none of us live in a Skinner box. Maybe this study helps alleviate those limitations. Just a guess.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the journal in question is peer-reviewed.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I agree. Good guess...


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## wolfy dog

More than a decade ago I discovered clickering and based on the results I started viewing it as the gospel of training and denounced everything else. but after working with several strong willed dogs, and especially my own GSDs as pups, I discovered that some dogs won't let you get away with clicker training alone. So now I always start them with the clicker and go from there.


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## glowingtoadfly

I don't think clicker training horses to load is reinventing the wheel... It's a different approach, but one that is based in sound science. Correct timing is something that is difficult in clicker training and if you are using an aversive. The difference is that when using an aversive, a poorly timed correction leads to useless stress for the animal. Poorly timed clicker or marker training leads to a poorly timed treat.


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## Sri

Agree with WD. I have used the clicker, not used it ( i feel it cumbersome, managing leash treats and clicker) and started using again. The side effect of the clicker was that it was more calming to my dog. Perhaps because the clicker is a strong symbol of positive things. Praise, treats, ball every single time in the beginning. And then there are jackpots...
And the wonders of free shaping! When I first heard of shaping I scoffed at it. But now that Ive tried it its great to see my dog think and be creative and offer behaviors to figure out what it is i want. Its a great game and immensely tiring for them. In less than 5 mins my dog has learnt to love going to his mat and relaxing there. Now i can take oit the mat anywhere and he wont get off it unless i ask him to. Or walking on the treadmill. I Certainly cant teach everything with it though lots of people have taught a lot of unexpected behaviors with it. 

But i can understand that it may not be for all animals or trainers. Gwen, i dont think anyone is trying to push anything into your hands. People are just sharing what works or didnt work for them. 


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## glowingtoadfly

I am definitely not trying to push anything into anyone's hands, or out of them  I use marker words a lot more than the clicker, it is just a very helpful tool for my own dog's hand shyness, and I use it to teach new behaviors. I watched Gwen's video, and saw nothing wrong happening...


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## Gwenhwyfair

Actually no need to guess why Karen is excited about the study, it's really a rhetorical question she said it in her own words, **First** study, how long has clicker training been around? 

I don't recommend clicker training for horses, especially if there are other humane methods which are more effective, safer and faster to boot.

That's my take away from this one study.


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## glowingtoadfly

Sri said:


> Agree with WD. I have used the clicker, not used it ( i feel it cumbersome, managing leash treats and clicker) and started using again. The side effect of the clicker was that it was more calming to my dog. Perhaps because the clicker is a strong symbol of positive things. Praise, treats, ball every single time in the beginning. And then there are jackpots...
> And the wonders of free shaping! When I first heard of shaping I scoffed at it. But now that Ive tried it its great to see my dog think and be creative and offer behaviors to figure out what it is i want. Its a great game and immensely tiring for them. In less than 5 mins my dog has learnt to love going to his mat and relaxing there. Now i can take oit the mat anywhere and he wont get off it unless i ask him to. Or walking on the treadmill. I Certainly cant teach everything with it though lots of people have taught a lot of unexpected behaviors with it.
> 
> But i can understand that it may not be for all animals or trainers. Gwen, i dont think anyone is trying to push anything into your hands. People are just sharing what works or didnt work for them.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I love watching my dogs learn to think for themselves and offer behaviors because of the clicker/marker. It is cumbersome, so I attached a clicker to my treat pouch, although for proper mechanics it should probably be in my hand.. It's fun to have a dog who offers a heel and happily gazes up at me at random times in my day...


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## sparra

Gwenhwyfair said:


> This is Josh Lyons (John Lyon's son) teaching a horse to load. Note how dangerous this can be and how he teaches the horse with a mild aversive (tap of the dressage whip) but mostly just teaches the horse forward and backing up cues. Then applies it to loading on the trailer. He rewards the horse with pats and praise but mostly lets the horse figure it out *with* boundaries. The horse is not made to feel trapped by being allowed to back off the trailer.
> 
> So what's wrong with this? The horse in the video below was loading after 45 minutes of work.
> 
> This method worked really well with my skittish OTTB.
> 
> Josh Lyons Trailer Loading - YouTube


Nothing wrong with this .......and a method widely used.......


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