# Ugh. Pups an CL



## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Been on the lookout for a female German shep pup. As close to 8-16 weeks as we could get. 

Been looking for awhile with no luck. I don't care about AKC. To me, they just part of the family. Hence why breeders no good to me. I can't see spending more than a couple hundred for a pet. If a job dog, yes. But someone to slobber all over me. Be by my side through good an bad. An always there to talk to. 

Also because we have cats, and they don't take well to big animals. A pup their size, an they can get used to the new addition as they grow. 

And I prefer to adopt from someone who had an accident litter, or anything other than a backyard breeder. Though I would still get from a byb because I know I am in a position to take on responsibility such as a dog. Dunno if next person if I pass up, is In the same position..

But for $500 for a pup out of 7???? That's all profit. 

Oh well.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

oh yeah that is definitely profit. I paid $150 for Shasta. She was an accidental litter result. plus the cost of gas to get there to pick her up so total $190. If i'm spending more than $200 on a pup, i'm going to a breeder who's done health testing and such on the parents and has proof of it.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Yeah Arlo was an accident litter too. $200 for him plus $15 in gas. 

His parents were on site, so I got to see his future look which helped a lot. An today he is a great looking dog. Everywhere we go, compliments, even from other gsd owners. Had a few ask me if I was going to breed him lol I'll pass on that..


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Yeah Arlo was an accident litter too. $200 for him plus $15 in gas.
> 
> His parents were on site, so I got to see his future look which helped a lot. An today he is a great looking dog. Everywhere we go, compliments, even from other gsd owners. Had a few ask me if I was going to breed him lol I'll pass on that..


 
yeah i got to meet Shasta's parents. Her mom was kind of a washed out sable and her dad was a monster GSD from germany. He had gorgeous black and red pigment and he was just massive! I havent seen a shepherd his size in a very long time. He was just HUGE. i couldnt believe it when we pulled up how big he was. Size of a small horse.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> yeah i got to meet Shasta's parents. Her mom was kind of a washed out sable and her dad was a monster GSD from germany. He had gorgeous black and red pigment and he was just massive! I havent seen a shepherd his size in a very long time. He was just HUGE. i couldnt believe it when we pulled up how big he was. Size of a small horse.


Nice! I heard the term "king shepherds"? Apparently 90-150 lbs range. Mine is 90 at 9 months now. 

Glad you got to see Shastas parents too. Really puts you at ease to see the blood of the family. Puppys are cute when young but they change like humans lol. 

Was this in co?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Nice! I heard the term "king shepherds"? Apparently 90-150 lbs range. Mine is 90 at 9 months now.
> 
> Glad you got to see Shastas parents too. Really puts you at ease to see the blood of the family. Puppys are cute when young but they change like humans lol.
> 
> Was this in co?


 
Yeah Shasta's dad was 100lbs after being put on a diet. Any smaller than that he would have been underweight. And i agree its nice to be able to see the parents. Nope, not in CO. This was here in NC. I wish it had been in CO but i dont see too many litters in CO that arent from breeder. Had a neighbor in CO for a couple years who had a king shepherd. That dog was monsterous! He was a 170lbs and he was in good body condition. He was so sweet but seriously not a dog people approached willingly unless they already knew him!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

What's the difference between an accidental litter and a BYB? And I've seen some oops litters where the parents were siblings...definitely want to see the pedigree if that's the case. 

Why not adopt a puppy from a rescue or a shelter?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I definitely would never pay for a byb accidental litter. Taking one for free is acceptable, but buying one is just encouraging them.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

BowWowMeow said:


> What's the difference between an accidental litter and a BYB? And I've seen some oops litters where the parents were siblings...definitely want to see the pedigree if that's the case.
> 
> Why not adopt a puppy from a rescue or a shelter?


 
lol i would consider an accidental litter as one where the dogs were kept seperate and somehow, they managed to be romeo and juliet. In Shasta's case, her parents were kept seperate. Owners had to go out of town for a family emergency pretty quickly and asked friends to take care of the dogs, continuing to keep them seperate. Shasta's dad chewed through a wall and a couch to get to her mom while between house/petsitter visits. And considering the size of Shasta's dad, i dont think much would have stopped a very determined male of his size. a BYB is someone i would consider who refuses to alter their dogs and has litter after litter (like the people down the street from me and their beagles) and doesnt do any health testing, and just keeps letting the dogs go for every heat cycle for the money they can get from the litter. But everyone has a different definition. The $150 i paid for Shasta covered the costs for puppy shots and mom's vet care and checkups while she was pregnant and food cost for caring for mom's increased food needs and the puppies. Beyond that they may have made about $20-$40 to keep.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

People like you are the reason BYB's exist. People like you who don't care about AKC, health testing, guarantees, breeder support, and all that other good stuff you most likely will never get from a BYB are the reason they exist and continue to breed.

If you don't want to spend the money from a responsible breeder, which is completely understandable, why not just go through a rescue or shelter? There are new dogs posted everyday in the urgent and non urgent section, but you're still looking for that bargain pup from someone selling their litter off CL? Why?


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

BowWowMeow said:


> What's the difference between an accidental litter and a BYB? And I've seen some oops litters where the parents were siblings...definitely want to see the pedigree if that's the case.
> 
> *Why not adopt a puppy from a rescue or a shelter?*


If the pups are born, they are going somewhere.. Either in my care or who knows where. 

I have no problem with a shelter. Just none to be found in my area


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I definitely would never pay for a byb accidental litter. Taking one for free is acceptable, but buying one is just encouraging them.


to each their own. I understand your opinion. Shasta's mom was altered a couple days after the puppies were weaned. She still had the shaved belly and some stitching when i met her.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

adamdude04 said:


> But for $500 for a pup out of 7???? That's all profit.
> 
> Oh well.



Even $5.00 for an oops pup is all profit. They haven't spent a penny on the parents beyond what they would normally for their pet, so it is all greed. If they want me to do them the favor of taking on the lifelong responsibility of one of their oops pups, be magnanimous and give the pup away for free and be glad someone else is happy to do it. I know of quite a few who had almost an entire litter still living with them a year later.
Then that oops pup, becomes an oops parent, and so on and so on...


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

adamdude04 said:


> If the pups are born, they are going somewhere.. Either in my care or who knows where.
> 
> I have no problem with a shelter. Just none to be found in my area


Yeah, well, if they are born and no one buys from them, they most likely won't continue to breed their dogs either. Good thing there's always someone looking for a bargain, so they do continue to breed. Hopefully your bargain doesn't turn into a health or temperament disaster.


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## My2Furkids (Sep 21, 2010)

First of all, the word you are looking for in most of your OP is "AND" meaning, additionally. Second of all, your signature says you live in Denver, and I don't for a SECOND believe there are no shelters in your area. Get off your ass, do some research and get a dog the responsible way instead of looking for the easy way out with some idiot who decided to let their (not health or temperament-tested) dogs have puppies.

/Rant.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

There are many dogs listed on this forum that desperately need homes...some are very young, good with cats & other dogs. I have also seen females with new born puppies.
I'll bet, if you contact some in your State or surrounding areas...there will be a dog, fitting your criteria.
Take a look...it definitely would be worth the effort.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Both Riley and Zena were adopted from the Pikes Peak Humane Society. My mom sent me a picture message of a 7 year old female GSD at the humane society who is available for adoption tomorrow. I would go get her if i was in CO. Shasta was my accidental litter pup or BYB pup for those who wish to go that route. Shelby is my rescued from an abusive rescuer dog. I fully intend on getting my working line male from a breeder in the next few years. i dont know what Shelters are in Denver though as just driving in Denver kinda scares me some lol. I cant really judge as my dogs come from a variety of situations. i say search where you're comfy looking. You can get a good companion anywhere.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I spent about 30 seconds and found:

http://members.petfinder.org/~CO171/index.html

Snow Capped Shepherd Rescue - Home

German Shepherd Rescue of Central Colorado


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Just want to reiterate. If you buy from these people who sell puppies on Craigslist for a few hundred bucks out of non-tested, non-titled parents, you are not only setting yourself up for a higher chance of health and temperament problems than if you had gone to a good breeder, you are also DIRECTLY CONTRIBUTING to pet overpopulation with your hard-earned dollars. Specifically you are supporting the kinds of people who produce the huge majority of the purebred dogs that end up dead in shelters.

I like you Adam, but I really wish you'd spend some time in your local shelter before you make this decision. I don't think you fully realize what a poison backyard breeders are. Hope I wasn't too unclear on this.

Edited to add: This year I personally have pulled 6 purebred GSDs under the age of 1.5 years out of animal shelters. The 2 rescues I work with have pulled nearly 50. That's just the ones under 2 years or so. They're out there; you just have to look and not very hard.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

bocron said:


> I spent about 30 seconds and found:
> 
> http://members.petfinder.org/~CO171/index.html
> 
> ...


 
snowcapped is a good rescue and GSRCC has a sister branch i believe in california as well. Unless i'm thinking of the other GSD rescue based out of castle rock. 

Emoore, if i lived in Texas, i would definitely be adopting one of those shepherds! I'm not a fan of Texas but i always see some of the nicest shepherds down there in rescues and shelters.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Heck, if you're dead set on buying a puppy off Craigslist, you can usually find one 10 or 12 weeks old or so whose idiot owner forgot to check with their apartment's "banned breed list" before bringing home a puppy. I see those a few times a month. But please don't support a backyard breeder.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Heck, if you're dead set on buying a puppy off Craigslist, you can usually find one 10 or 12 weeks old or so whose idiot owner forgot to check with their apartment's "banned breed list" before bringing home a puppy. I see those a few times a month. But please don't support a backyard breeder.


 
i've been seeing a lot of those out here recently. its driving me nuts. Some idiot posted about a puppy they just spent $1500 on and their townhouse doesnt allow dogs in general over 30lbs full grown so they're "rehoming" the puppy for $1000. I was ticked.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> People like you are the reason BYB's exist. People like you who don't care about AKC, health testing, guarantees, breeder support, and all that other good stuff you most likely will never get from a BYB are the reason they exist and continue to breed.
> 
> If you don't want to spend the money from a responsible breeder, which is completely understandable, why not just go through a rescue or shelter? There are new dogs posted everyday in the urgent and non urgent section, but you're still looking for that bargain pup from someone selling their litter off CL? Why?


Look.. I hate to be realistic with you.. But will byb ever stop without some drastic measures put in place? Nope. 

And again.. Byb will always get rid of their litter. Half end up in shelters unfortantly after the cute age. 

Don't bust my balls because I am seeking options that fit what I'm looking for. I'm not going to go out and do something illegal, and altho I don't full support byb I understand they will never be stopped by folk such as yourself (ranting on about your post I quoted). 

And let's get something straight here.. A bargain pup? Pups go for $300 here at the shelter. That however includes added items such as food, leash, shots, an vet checkup. So really the pup itself is about $150? Bargin pup on cl or adoption center, so let's not try to bend the truth here..


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Heck, if you're dead set on buying a puppy off Craigslist, you can usually find one 10 or 12 weeks old or so whose idiot owner forgot to check with their apartment's "banned breed list" before bringing home a puppy. I see those a few times a month. But please don't support a backyard breeder.


In not set.. But I seek options. On my phone I can search craigslist in less than a minute for updates anytime I have downtime. Usually once every couple hours. Adoption sites, not so much (Cl is a list form. Adoption sites all out websites to navigate and time consuming, esp on cellphone). Granted cl gets more search time, but deff not set on. I have passed up a handful of pups because of certain situations. A couple being lack of parents on-site. Odds are those pups were adopted cheap, an resold for profit.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Anyone too irresponsible to keep their intact dogs from breeding is a BYB. I would sooner purchase from someone who admits that they bred their dogs, than someone who suggests that they just couldn't keep them apart. 

My reason for this, and for a moment I will press my agenda, is that too many intentional breedings are passed off as accidental breedings, because it is more acceptable to say, we stepped out of the room for just a second, than to say, yeah, we thought it would be fun to have a litter. 

And when legislatures get together to dream up legislation, they discuss mandatory spay/neuter laws, and extra fees for people who want to keep their animals intact. And all these litters from people too irresponsible to even admit that they allowed it to happen, drive this sort of legislation. 

The guy who wants to sell a few puppies to make back his purchase price, or to cover food or vet bill costs will at least not pretend that he cannot manage his intact dogs.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> i've been seeing a lot of those out here recently. its driving me nuts. Some idiot posted about a puppy they just spent $1500 on and their townhouse doesnt allow dogs in general over 30lbs full grown so they're "rehoming" the puppy for $1000. I was ticked.


Oh I have ran into a few of these.. "we adopted from shelter.. Landloard says no dogs. Rehoming for $1,100. Purebred about 6 months old" lol

Adopted from shelter? Rehoming $1,100???


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

adamdude04 said:


> Look.. I hate to be realistic with you.. But will byb ever stop without some drastic measures put in place? Nope.
> 
> And again.. Byb will always get rid of their litter. Half end up in shelters unfortantly after the cute age.
> 
> ...


Yes, you do fully support back yard breeders. You're willing to give them your money for one of their puppies. If that's not supporting them, I don't know what is.

You're right, they probably will never be stopped. There will always be some idiot out there breeding their pets and selling them for cheap. Does that mean, I should just shut my mouth when someone brings up the idea about buying from them? No, I'm going to give them my opinion on the stupid decision theyre about to make and the stupid people they're supporting.

When you give that $300 to a shelter, at least the money is going towards a good a cause. You know where all of the dogs who don't get sold on craigslist go and possibly die? They go to the shelter. That $300 isn't going towards some idiot who is just going to breed their dog over and over for profit. Your $300 is going to the shelter or rescue so they can continue to exist and save dogs from the idiots you're looking to buy a dog off of.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Yes, you do fully support back yard breeders. You're willing to give them your money for one of their puppies. If that's not supporting them, I don't know what is.
> 
> You're right, they probably will never be stopped. There will always be some idiot out there breeding their pets and selling them for cheap. Does that mean, I should just shut my mouth when someone brings up the idea about buying from them? No, I'm going to give them my opinion on the stupid decision theyre about to make and the stupid people they're supporting.
> 
> When you give that $300 to a shelter, at least the money is going towards a good a cause. You know where all of the dogs who don't get sold on craigslist go and possibly die? They go to the shelter. That $300 isn't going towards some idiot who is just going to breed their dog over and over for profit. Your $300 is going to the shelter or rescue so they can continue to exist and save dogs from the idiots you're looking to buy a dog off of.


Let me help you out here..

Fully supporting would be paying $500-1500 for a pup. I could buy one no problem and I would be happy with the pup. However I haven't and don't plan on doing so. 

Now I don't fully support, well that's where I have my limit. I'm only willing to fork out $150, Maybe $200 max. I will not buy unless parents are on site, proof of shots an such, and the characters of people "selling" the dog. 

And you want to tell me I'm fully supporting byb? Just because things aren't going your way, does not give you the right to tell me what I support.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

If you buy your clothes at Wal-Mart, you're supporting Wal-Mart. If you shop at the farmer's market, you're supporting local farmers. If you buy a "Rolex" from a guy in a trench coat, you're supporting the black market. And if you buy from a backyard breeder, you're supporting backyard breeding.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Let me help you out here..
> 
> Fully supporting would be paying $500-1500 for a pup. I could buy one no problem and I would be happy with the pup. However I haven't and don't plan on doing so.
> 
> ...


Fully supporting is giving them whatever price they're asking for. A BYB probably knows that nobody is going to pay $1,000 for a puppy whose parents weren't proven to make that puppy worth $1,000.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

So because you'll only look for a $200 bargain from a BYB instead of paying $1000, you're only partially supporting them? Lol... I guess whatever helps you sleep at night.

Listen, i'm really not trying to knock you. I hope you do find that perfect puppy. BYB's are kind of a hot topic with me. I don't want to support them in any possible way. I just hope you really look into shelters and rescues before buying a $200 pup from a litter that you found on craigslist. That's all i'm trying to say. Best of luck in your search.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Konotashi said:


> Fully supporting is giving them whatever price they're asking for. A BYB probably knows that nobody is going to pay $1,000 for a puppy whose parents weren't proven to make that puppy worth $1,000.


Oh you'd be surprised what people are willing to pay. A quick search of craigslist and you'll see all of the outrageous prices people are asking for their litters. Maybe they don't all get sold for their asking prices, but i'm sure a some of them do. 

Not to mention all the puppy stores out there getting their dogs from puppy mills charging premiums. It's crazy what people will pay for a cute puppy without any papers, titles, guarantees, health testing, etc. but they do.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Oh you'd be surprised what people are willing to pay. A quick search of craigslist and you'll see all of the outrageous prices people are asking for their litters. Maybe they don't all get sold for their asking prices, but i'm sure a some of them do.
> 
> Not to mention all the puppy stores out there getting their dogs from puppy mills charging premiums. It's crazy what people will pay for a cute puppy without any papers, titles, guarantees, health testing, etc. but they do.


There's a pet store chain in the malls around here called Puppies n' Love, also known as Animal Kingdom. They sell puppies between $1,500 - $2,800. They preach that their puppies come from reputable breeders and have health guarantees, blah blah blah. One time someone came into my Walgreens with their shirt on and I asked them how they liked working there. She almost started crying. She'd just quit because she couldn't take it anymore because it was too sad because of how the puppies came in. She stayed as long as she could to do what she could for the puppies, but she couldn't stand to see the conditions the puppies were in when they came in. She told me never to buy anything from that place. 

Before we got to that part in our conversation, I asked her why they quit carrying GSDs. (They weren't listed on the site anymore, which was a relief). She was kind of surprised, because she said that they still sold them. She said never to go off of anything that the site said because it was all a lie, given it says reputable breeders, health guarantees, etc. I figured it was a front because no reputable breeder would give their puppies to a pet store, but to hear it from someone that actually worked there was a little shocking. 

Point is, people are willing to listen to whatever people are willing to tell them if it makes them feel better, especially when it comes to parting with their money.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> So because you'll only look for a $200 bargain from a BYB instead of paying $1000, you're only partially supporting them? Lol... I guess whatever helps you sleep at night.
> 
> Listen, i'm really not trying to knock you. I hope you do find that perfect puppy. BYB's are kind of a hot topic with me. I don't want to support them in any possible way. I just hope you really look into shelters and rescues before buying a $200 pup from a litter that you found on craigslist. That's all i'm trying to say. Best of luck in your search.


I never stated I would only look for a "bargain" from a byb. And I would never pay $1000 or even $500 for a dog. It's a pet, not a material item with a fancy background.

From "breeders" I get what for my $1,000-1,500? I just want a dog. They get sick, they chew on things, they die. 

If not for my two cats, I'd adopt a 6-12 month old pup instantly. But I need their size to be small. 

And for awhile now, I have been checking into all options. Granted cl gets more searches based on it's simplicity. Navigating an adoption website on a phone isn't the easiest to do. Let alone time consuming. 

And in my experience, finding 8 week old puppies at a shelter is a "right place, right time" thing. Because at shelters they do go for $150-300 and quick. I've seen a very limited amount In the last two years (before arlo) and by the time I called or go there they were all gone. Less than a day, adopted like quick sand. 

Now if byb gets under your skin, that's cool. I respect that. However you need to learn a form of respect. I don't appreciate being called stupid, or criticized by someone who doesn't know me, know all the facts, or understand my point of view that maybe you just haven't taken the time to notice.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with Emoore, giving any money to a byb, is fully supporting a byb.

But what is that REALLY doing? Those pups have to go somewhere, why does it matter?

If a byb sells seven puppies for $200 each, at the end of the day he has $1400. Let's say he has one dog and one bitch, feeds them Old Roy, and that is about it. 

You can feed two dogs premium food for about 100$/month. Old Roy would be $40/month? 

At the end of the day, your BYB is MAKING money. Like it or not, even with his low price tag, because he is doing NOTHING with his dogs, he is making money. And his success, will encourage him to get more dogs and breed more litters. 

He is breeding his dogs to whatever pairing is available, rather than researching bloodlines, and checking the health of the dogs behind his dogs, and trying to find the best match for his bitch in conformation. But you do not care, because it looks like a shepherd it is a shepherd (BTW King Shepherds ARE NOT GSDs)

The guy has probably never read the standard, but is more likely to be breeding for oversized dogs, or colors they can hawk as rare, livers, blues, bi-colors, black, or white. Breeding dogs just for color is never a good idea. Not saying there are not good breeders of bi-colors or blacks or even whites, but if color is their leading criteria for breeding, then that is a problem. 

Maybe your friendly neighborhood BYB/oopse breeder DOES love and care for his breeding stock, and maybe they do find decent homes for their puppies, but they are doing nothing good for the breed itself.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> I never stated I would only look for a "bargain" from a byb. And I would never pay $1000 or even $500 for a dog. It's a pet, not a material item with a fancy background.
> 
> From "breeders" I get what for my $1,000-1,500? I just want a dog. They get sick, they chew on things, they die.
> 
> ...


If all you see a dog as is something that gets sick, chews on stuff, and dies, then maybe you shouldn't get a dog.

And I don't recall anyone calling you stupid.


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## My2Furkids (Sep 21, 2010)

What does getting a puppy have to do with the dog getting along with your cats??? You do know that GSDs often have pretty strong prey drives, even at 8 weeks old, right? The cute puppy you want your cats to get along with... is probably going to chase and terrorize the cats from day 1. JMO.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> There's a pet store chain in the malls around here called Puppies n' Love, also known as Animal Kingdom. They sell puppies between $1,500 - $2,800. They preach that their puppies come from reputable breeders and have health guarantees, blah blah blah. One time someone came into my Walgreens with their shirt on and I asked them how they liked working there. She almost started crying. She'd just quit because she couldn't take it anymore because it was too sad because of how the puppies came in. She stayed as long as she could to do what she could for the puppies, but she couldn't stand to see the conditions the puppies were in when they came in. She told me never to buy anything from that place.
> 
> Before we got to that part in our conversation, I asked her why they quit carrying GSDs. (They weren't listed on the site anymore, which was a relief). She was kind of surprised, because she said that they still sold them. She said never to go off of anything that the site said because it was all a lie, given it says reputable breeders, health guarantees, etc. I figured it was a front because no reputable breeder would give their puppies to a pet store, but to hear it from someone that actually worked there was a little shocking.
> 
> Point is, people are willing to listen to whatever people are willing to tell them if it makes them feel better, especially when it comes to parting with their money.


I knew that for awhile. I will 100% not buy without seeing the parents. For one, I care about looks, and two the parents just give you an idea of your pup at an older age. 

It is sad how pet shops can just sell off animals like that. But with lack of law, what can you expect, ya know?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> I knew that for awhile. I will 100% not buy without seeing the parents. For one, I care about looks, and two the parents just give you an idea of your pup at an older age.
> 
> It is sad how pet shops can just sell off animals like that. But with lack of law, what can you expect, ya know?


So do you want to see the parents because you want to know what your dog is going to look like or because you want to know what kind of temperament your puppy might have when he gets older? I'd rather have a butt-ugly dog with an awesome temperament than the most beautiful dog with the worst temperament, but that's just me.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Putting the BYB issue aside for a moment.

I don't know if you know this or not, but it is possible to raise a puppy around cats and still have him grow up to be untrustworthy around them. Some dogs have higher genetic prey drive and can't really be taught to leave small, furry, fast-moving creatures alone. 

In my opinion, the fact that you have cats should encourage you to get an adult dog that's already been proven to be good around cats, not buy a puppy and hope for the best.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> If all you see a dog as is something that gets sick, chews on stuff, and dies, then maybe you shouldn't get a dog.
> 
> And I don't recall anyone calling you stupid.


That's not all I see a dog for, but remember a dog is a pet. Just like humans, they chew on things, get older. Get sick. Live life, and die. 

A member did, a few posts back. Not directly, however it was aimed at me in regards to my posts/actions


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I think he said that cat isn't good with dogs


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Konotashi said:


> If all you see a dog as is something that gets sick, chews on stuff, and dies, then maybe you shouldn't get a dog.
> 
> And I don't recall anyone calling you stupid.


I was thinking that same thing... There's a lot more to owning a dog than just that. 

And I never called you (the OP) stupid once. I don't know you, so I would never say something like that. Even if I did know you, I probably wouldn't say that. I did call your potential decision to support back yard breeding stupid and I did call the people breeding their pet dogs without health and temperament testing and selling them on CL as stupid, but I never directed anything specifically at you.

Sorry... that kind of got off topic... just had to respond to that.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> So do you want to see the parents because you want to know what your dog is going to look like or because you want to know what kind of temperament your puppy might have when he gets older? I'd rather have a butt-ugly dog with an awesome temperament than the most beautiful dog with the worst temperament, but that's just me.


I look for everything. I'm in sales and marketing. My lifestyle is talking to people and that's what I do best. So getting people to talk, and spend time around them is easy for me. I can get facts, personality, and I use this in many different ways. When I got arlo, same thing. Got to meet his parents, and the owners. Now I have a good looking pup, great personality, and very smart (maybe too smart,,,)

On the pup vs cat note.. We tried a 8 month old pup with our cats. For a whole month no go. Cats would attack and hiss and just overall not be themselves.

We have a cat that lives in our basement. After well over a year, and plexi glass with holes as a "door" my cats hate, and this cat hate each other. 100% can not put them in a room together without fur flying. We tried putting the one cat in a large crate in a spare room for a day letting ours take their time. Just constant attacks and fights. 


With arlo, it only lasted a day they were ticked. Now they all lay next to each other, on each other and sleep.

I understand the prey drive.. But just getting them to accept each other is the key. I like to relax, not break up fights.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Do you think a pup or an adult would fare better against hostile cats?


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> I was thinking that same thing... There's a lot more to owning a dog than just that.
> 
> And I never called you (the OP) stupid once. I don't know you, so I would never say something like that. Even if I did know you, I probably wouldn't say that. I did call your potential decision to support back yard breeding stupid and I did call the people breeding their pet dogs without health and temperament testing and selling them on CL as stupid, but I never directed anything specifically at you.
> 
> Sorry... that kind of got off topic... just had to respond to that.


"No, I'm going to give them my opinion on the stupid decision theyre about to make and the stupid people they're supporting."

Choices, they are decisions I make. Thus calling them stupid is a reflection on how you think of me, as my choices/decisions.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> Do you think a pup or an adult would fare better against hostile cats?


Who you asking?

Arlo is 9 months now. We got him at 2 months. Cats accepted him a day or two after the night we brought him home. 

Ahhh i remember watching the cats play too lol. They would run an chase each other. An Arlo would start to run too but he wasn't fast enough. Then the cats run past him, an he would always fall over trying to quickly turn around. Then he come up on them, turn (an trip over) again just before he got to em fighting on the ground, then they both would run up to arlo, jump over him and run away again. Ahhhhh those were the days 

..now they just all sleep on the floor in the sun like lazy bums


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Just because someone makes a stupid decision, doesn't make them a stupid person. 

If I offended you, I do apologize.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

ok, to answer your question which seems to be "value for your $$" regarding what you get from a $1000 pup vs a $300 pup

$300 pup - you bring home the pup, usually with no questions asked by the breeder. Show the $$ and you are out the door. pup may or may not have first shots. may or may not have ever seen a vet. mom may/not have seen a vet or had good diet during her pregnancy and nursing. Once the money changes hands, you are on your own!

$1000 pup - interviewed by the breeder to find the pup that best matches your situation. (could be one that has already shown that pup will likely be good with cats for instance) parents are health-tested and worked to prove that they are of sound mind and body (sure things happen and animals get sick, but it never hurts to stack the deck in your favor). mom was vetted and well-fed during pregnancy/nursing to insure that the pups get a good start. pups are vet-checked, shots, and wormed before going home. breeder stands behind their pups, usually with a contract stating what they will do. if the horrible happens and you must get rid of your dog, the breeder will take the dog and/or assist you in finding an appropriate home. breeder is a lifelong source for questions, advise, and support. 

Those are just a few of the differences, but they are well worth the price difference to me.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

adamdude04 said:


> Been on the lookout for a female German shep pup. As close to 8-16 weeks as we could get.
> 
> Been looking for awhile with no luck. I don't care about AKC. To me, they just part of the family. Hence why breeders no good to me.


Congrats ! YOU shouldn't have that hard of a time with this and can easily get a pup for under $200 if you don't care about it's breeding with the genetics/temperament that's brings with it.

Shelters and rescues all over the USA are chock full of puppies that fulfill your requirements of being wonderful family pets! There ARE fairly young GSD's and mostly GSD mixes all over the place. 

Just hang out in the Urgent/Rescue section here to find some of them. Though I'm sure if you start contacting the rescues/shelters in your area you'll find a puppy that will be perfect for you.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Adamdude...maybe if you got involved with rescue for a few months...you would understand. Read the heartfelt pleas....Please take this dog...I'm having a baby...I'm moving...he's chasing the cat...He chews...He got too big...This is the shelter, we have an awesome girl...please help her, we're overflowing....maybe you would understand....especially when you have to say...I'm sorry...i can't help. Maybe after you frantically email all your contacts hoping someone has room...and no one does...you'll understand. Maybe when you look at that beautiful, innocent, confused face...then glance at the clock...and know that dog is being euthanized....through no fault of it's own...other than..no where to go...you'll understand. maybe when you wake up each day and see hundreds of new pleas...day after day...and get that grind in your stomach...knowing there isn't much you can do...and it just won't end...and you shed a tear...you'll understand. 

Where do all these dogs come from? BYB's, accidental litters, puppy mills. I think it's very safe to assume...most dogs from reputable breeders got assistance from their breeders if the owner couldn't keep. 

Yes...it's overwhelming...doesn't look like an end in sight. But we can all do our part...and try to make a dent. A BYB or puppymill breeds for money. If no one bought their puppies...they would STOP. Buying from them perpetuates the cycle. The arguement that "this litter is already born and needs a home" is weak. If the byb or puppymill couldn't sell it...they'd give them away or send them to a shelter...then wipe their hands of the whole business saying..."whew...this just wasn't worth it". Buying from them makes it well worth their while to continue. 

I implore you to reconsider. One by one...we can make a difference. Now back to my emails...

Thank you.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

your decision does not affect any of us personally And your right, you buying a puppy from say a byb, isn't going to stop the byb'ers from producing dogs.

Something to think about tho, you say you don't want to spend over 200$ for a puppy, ok that's fine, what happens when that puppy gets some major illness that will require a vet cost of over a thousand dollars? Are you going to be willing or able to spend that amount ? What if the puppy ends up with a lifelong illness that requires medication etc? Are you willing or able to pay for that?

I KNOW , puppies are a crap shoot, and you could end up with medical issues from one you paid say, 1000 or more for, and I KNOW , you could end up lucky with a byb puppy and never have a health issue all it's life, I guess what I'm asking is, "what if" that is not the case, and you end up with a sick dog that requires an immense amount of money to keep it healthy.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Myamom said:


> Adamdude...maybe if you got involved with rescue for a few months...you would understand. Read the heartfelt pleas....Please take this dog...I'm having a baby...I'm moving...he's chasing the cat...He chews...He got too big...This is the shelter, we have an awesome girl...please help her, we're overflowing....maybe you would understand....especially when you have to say...I'm sorry...i can't help. Maybe after you frantically email all your contacts hoping someone has room...and no one does...you'll understand. Maybe when you look at that beautiful, innocent, confused face...then glance at the clock...and know that dog is being euthanized....through no fault of it's own...other than..no where to go...you'll understand. maybe when you wake up each day and see hundreds of new pleas...day after day...and get that grind in your stomach...knowing there isn't much you can do...and it just won't end...and you shed a tear...you'll understand.
> 
> Where do all these dogs come from? BYB's, accidental litters, puppy mills. I think it's very safe to assume...most dogs from reputable breeders got assistance from their breeders if the owner couldn't keep.
> 
> ...


Thank you yes - and I think I read you are in Colorado - there is GSD rescue there that you could volunteer with. Please consider doing this, you will NOT regret it. I have been volunteering with rescue for 8 years this spring after adopting 8 years ago. I do not know the details of each of the rescues in CO, but if you want us to help research them we will. 

And we do get well bred, good tempered, healthy dogs in rescue - puppy producers that purchase good dogs and breed and breed and breed them, the puppies those puppies produce by the next puppy producer...people who purchase vanity dogs and then dump them when their interests change, etc.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> I never stated I would only look for a "bargain" from a byb. And I would never pay $1000 or even $500 for a dog. It's a pet, not a material item with a fancy background.
> 
> From "breeders" I get what for my $1,000-1,500? I just want a dog. They get sick, they chew on things, they die.
> 
> ...


 

From "breeders" what do I get for 1000? Well for starters usually a guarantee against health problems and hip disp. for 30 months, a solid temperament (may help with the cats in the house) and so much more. I am not a breeder but I do know there is not as much profit as you think, maybe a breeder will or can give you some of the costs and how it's broken down, I would think food alone for 5 or 6 dogs would be mighty expensive plus healthcare, housing etc. I honestly don't care what you pay or where you get your dog from, I just wanted to clear up the myth that there is soooooo much profit from a pup, yes from some douche that doesn't care or know what he is doing then yes but if done the right way there isn't much profit if any.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Denali Girl,
Do you know what true "profit" good breeders hope to get from their puppies?
"Black ink instead of red ink", ..great, loving, responsible homes, ...references to other great homes... & reputation.
Robin


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Denali Girl,
> Do you know what true "profit" good breeders hope to get from their puppies?
> "Black ink instead of red ink", ..great, loving, responsible homes, ...references to other great homes... & reputation.
> Robin


 
Yes this is the point I am trying to make. A good breeder may break even if things go good.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

In a thread I made, someone made a very basic outline and a rough estimate of the costs. $6,500 to breed a bitch if everything went as planned. That's not even to guarantee a pregnancy.


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

I haven't read everything but I want to add that sometimes Rescues amd Shelters are not a option. We have all read the posts were they have denied good homes for BS reasons. I would have been denied because I live in a trailer, and I had 8 other dogs before I got Bella and at the time had no fencing up. We now have a 50x50 pen that will be doubled next summer. But as I said we have all read were people have been denied for less. I paid 200 for her and she is a byb/oops. Supposedly her parents tied during a move a door got left open somewhere. She was the last of the litter and 5months old. If I did not buy her she very well could have eneded up in a shelter. Would she be a better dog is I had got her from a shelter she would still be the same dog wether I got her there or a shelter.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> your decision does not affect any of us personally And your right, you buying a puppy from say a byb, isn't going to stop the byb'ers from producing dogs.
> 
> Something to think about tho, you say you don't want to spend over 200$ for a puppy, ok that's fine, what happens when that puppy gets some major illness that will require a vet cost of over a thousand dollars? Are you going to be willing or able to spend that amount ? What if the puppy ends up with a lifelong illness that requires medication etc? Are you willing or able to pay for that?
> 
> I KNOW , puppies are a crap shoot, and you could end up with medical issues from one you paid say, 1000 or more for, and I KNOW , you could end up lucky with a byb puppy and never have a health issue all it's life, I guess what I'm asking is, "what if" that is not the case, and you end up with a sick dog that requires an immense amount of money to keep it healthy.


Pet insurance. Doesn't cover all, but a decent chunk. And money wise, I can afford any costs. 

Otherwise I wouldn't get a pup. My arlo is like a child. Even if I don't feel like going out for a walk, I still do.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Thank you yes - and I think I read you are in Colorado - there is GSD rescue there that you could volunteer with. Please consider doing this, you will NOT regret it. I have been volunteering with rescue for 8 years this spring after adopting 8 years ago. I do not know the details of each of the rescues in CO, but if you want us to help research them we will.
> 
> And we do get well bred, good tempered, healthy dogs in rescue - puppy producers that purchase good dogs and breed and breed and breed them, the puppies those puppies produce by the next puppy producer...people who purchase vanity dogs and then dump them when their interests change, etc.


I wish I could help out at a shlelter. I applied at a couple when I was unemployed awhile back. They were fully staffed tho. Now I work too much and have too much on my plate for such terms. 

I see what you're saying though.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Really...pretty much anyone can adopt from a shelter. The better shelters may do a vet and ref check...but many will just adopt to anyone...cash and carry...due to overcrowding and lack of resources..sigh. 

And if you are a decent home...you CAN adopt from rescue. Yes..there are rules that vary from rescue to rescue...so if you apply to a rescue that requires a fence and you get turned down because you don't have one...move on and find a rescue that doesn't have that fence rule. If you get turned down because you have small children...again...move on to a rescue that doesn't have that rule. 

I have always been impressed with the people that had a true conviction of rescuing their next pet...and were adamant about never supporting a byb or puppy mill...so they went out and either accomodated the rules set forth by the rescue...or persisted until they found a rescue that would adopt to them. 

Now...if NO rescue or shelter will adopt to you (which would be pretty hard to believe unless...wow) ...I think it's time to take a good hard look at your circumstances and listen to what people are saying.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

adamdude04 said:


> I look for everything. I'm in sales and marketing. My lifestyle is talking to people and that's what I do best. So getting people to talk, and spend time around them is easy for me. I can get facts, personality, and I use this in many different ways. When I got arlo, same thing. Got to meet his parents, and the owners. Now I have a good looking pup, great personality, and very smart (maybe too smart,,,)


You are assuming people will be honest or that you are smart enough to catch them lying. Quite a gamble. As for checking out the parents, dogs will be more confident on their property in their owners presence. Take that same dog into a strange place around strange people and that dogs true temperament will come out.


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## Metalsmith (Mar 25, 2009)

Have you checked what Front Range German Shepherd Rescue(located in Colorado) has to offer? Here is their website: Front Range German Shepherd Rescue

There is a young adult female available who gets along quite well with multiple cats. Good house manners, crate trained, and gets along with other dogs! She sounds like a real sweetie. :wub: Here's a link for pretty Miss Evie: Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Denver, CO | Evie

Good luck with your search.


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

Metalsmith said:


> Have you checked what Front Range German Shepherd Rescue(located in Colorado) has to offer? Here is their website: Front Range German Shepherd Rescue
> 
> There is a young adult female available who gets along quite well with multiple cats. Good house manners, crate trained, and gets along with other dogs! She sounds like a real sweetie. :wub: Here's a link for pretty Miss Evie: Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Denver, CO | Evie
> 
> Good luck with your search.


We're fosters through them! Our Golden went on an eating strike once we brought home our foster dog and so we haven't fostered again yet because we're leaving for Christmas. I do plan to get back in touch with them and try again with a female and not a male. They're a great group of people.


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## Metalsmith (Mar 25, 2009)

> We're fosters through them!


Wow! They've got some really nice dogs! Hopefully the foster situation works better for next time. Sounds like a cool experience.


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

Metalsmith said:


> Wow! They've got some really nice dogs! Hopefully the foster situation works better for next time. Sounds like a cool experience.


I sure hope so, too! When we don't foster, I go to the doggy daycares around here and take the dogs fostered there for walks and outings.


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