# Considering a green dog for IPO



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Hi All,

My current dog has gotten IPO2 and will be going for IPO3 in a few months. However, when I purchased him I bought him from a BYB not knowing any better. Fortunately this BYB bought a Stormfront's Brawnson progency with a nice pedigree so while the father side is all pet / BYB "lines" the mother's side certainly has nice genetics for IPO.

Anyway, with that said, the dog is not an IPO dog. It took a lot of training and effort to get him here to this point and it's all on club level. 

Now that I am so involved with IPO I would love a dog that is more suitable for the work.

Now a short word on integrity: I bought my first dog as a pet and only later discovered IPO. As a pet he's great. I also made many training mistakes on him. So he is the product of MY decisions. As such, I am responsible to provide him a great life and that is exactly what I intend to do. I want to ADD a dog, not REPLACE a dog. I understand he is this way because of my choice (in purchasing from a BYB) and MY training.

With that said, I've been considering puppies vs young green dogs. I do not want to import, I'd like to buy a dog within the US. 

I am considering a green dog since I work full time and will not be home during the day. I also don't have the energy to housebreak a puppy.

So, if you could, tell me about the advantages vs disadvantages of a puppy vs a young dog. And, how much could a green dog cost compared to a puppy? Finally, anything else I should consider? The only thing I do not want is a titled dog. Not even a BH. I'd like to do it myself.

Any advice will be appreciated


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

No potty training, already health certified, dog can be started right away. 

It depends on how much they cost. Some breeders will charge you the puppy price because the dog hasn't done anything great, others will charge 2000-5000 bucks. I paid 1000 Euros for Nala when she was 15 months old and she really is one of the best females you could possibly get. 

Shop around. Do you have a helper that can go with you to test the dog?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Going with a green dog vs a puppy is always a concideration and a personal decision. There are pros and cons to both. I have done both from nothing to IPO3 many times.

Green dogs are not for sale because they are perfect. They are for sale because there is a problem. If there was not a problem they would be keeping him/her. The question has to be, what is the problem, why is he/she for sale. The answer to that question will determine if you want to deal with that problem. Puppies are always a gamble, pick good genetics and take your shot. But because of that gamble, green dogs are always more expensive. I usually find green dogs (10-18 months) with good potential usually run $4000 - $8000 depending on the amount of training/foundation/potential/genetics the green dog shows....You can greatly reduce the risk with hips/elbows (over a puppy) as they can be xrayed and get an idea at the 10 month age and they can get "a" stamped at 12 months.... Buying a green dog (especially if he is a strong dog) you will probably want to keep the 2 dogs separated, kennels or something. You don't want to buy a nice prospect/green dog and then bring him home to be dominated by the older dog...you also don't want him looking up to / learning from the older dog if he is not exactly the strongest dog. (no offense)

100%, go look at the dog yourself. If you can bring your helper to work the dog. Do not buy from videos or pictures and know that the seller will ALWAYS exaggerate how great the dog is. Videos and pictures can and usually are manipulated to make the dog look great. If you have no option, tell them to make a video by turning on the camera and do not stop the video at all, let me see the mistakes. If they are editing the video, they are hiding something....no starts and stops....Remember the dog is for sale for a reason, find out what the reason is and decide if that is a reason you can/want to work with.


Good luck with your search, very excisting times 

Frank


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

schh3fh2 said:


> Going with a green dog vs a puppy is always a concideration and a personal decision. There are pros and cons to both. I have done both from nothing to IPO3 many times.
> 
> Green dogs are not for sale because they are perfect. They are for sale because there is a problem. If there was not a problem they would be keeping him/her. The question has to be, what is the problem, why is he/she for sale. The answer to that question will determine if you want to deal with that problem. Puppies are always a gamble, pick good genetics and take your shot. But because of that gamble, green dogs are always more expensive. I usually find green dogs (10-18 months) with good potential usually run $4000 - $8000 depending on the amount of training/foundation/potential/genetics the green dog shows....You can greatly reduce the risk with hips/elbows (over a puppy) as they can be xrayed and get an idea at the 10 month age and they can get "a" stamped at 12 months.... Buying a green dog (especially if he is a strong dog) you will probably want to keep the 2 dogs separated, kennels or something. You don't want to buy a nice prospect/green dog and then bring him home to be dominated by the older dog...you also don't want him looking up to / learning from the older dog if he is not exactly the strongest dog. (no offense)
> 
> ...


Thanks Frank! That information is greatly appreciated. Same to Mrs. K! But I can only quote one post at a time 

That is part of the reason I want to buy in the US. I don't believe videos, and have seen many people on this site and others overpay for what is a very average dog. That's why I was considering doing just that - going with our helper and TD to check out the dog for ourselves. 

The price scares me! $4000 but I guess it does even out since you'd pay for the assurance that health is sound and temperament is there, and that the dog hasn't been "ruined" by some event during its developmental stage.


Good point about the dog being for sale for a reason  That's honestly something I overlooked - people will obviously keep the best dogs around especially breeders.

Decisions decisions...

And Frank - no offense taken! I do not pretend my current dog is something he is not. I understand his limitations and love him regardless (even if I do want to strangle him sometimes  )


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Puppyhood goes by so fast, and who doesn't work full time? 
I don't think 'not having the energy to housebreak a puppy' is a very good excuse when you are going to be taking a dog to IPO3! 
Much more time and energy will be put into training than worrying about housebreaking. My pup came fairly housetrained when I picked him up from the breeder...he only had 3 accidents total and had excellent manners in the house.
Franks post is the main reason I'd go with a puppy from a good breeder and not even research looking for a good green young dog. 
You could always send a young pup to someone for foundation/housetraining if you really don't want to deal with that fun stage!


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Puppyhood goes by so fast, and who doesn't work full time?
> I don't think 'not having the energy to housebreak a puppy' is a very good excuse when you are going to be taking a dog to IPO3!
> Much more time and energy will be put into training than worrying about housebreaking. My pup came fairly housetrained when I picked him up from the breeder...he only had 3 accidents total and had excellent manners in the house.
> Franks post is the main reason I'd go with a puppy from a good breeder and not even research looking for a good green young dog.
> You could always send a young pup to someone for foundation/housetraining if you really don't want to deal with that fun stage!


Funny  You know we all have the things we prefer to spend time on. I will gladly (and have been) wake up at 4AM and go tracking before work. I'll also come home and do obedience after a day's work every day. I will gladly drive 2 hours each way twice a week to spend 20 minutes doing bitework. 

What I don't like, is dealing with messing in the house, taking the dog out every freaking hour to potty, coming home to a soiled crate. Taking them to the vet back and forth, etc etc. Sorry, I just don't. Will I do it with a puppy? Of course, I'll put all my energy into it, but I am certainly entitled to my preferences. Don't you agree? That's why I am considering an older dog. I certainly do not work close enough to come walk the pup in the middle of the day nor am I able to telecommute...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

schh3fh2 said:


> Going with a green dog vs a puppy is always a concideration and a personal decision. There are pros and cons to both. I have done both from nothing to IPO3 many times.
> 
> *Green dogs are not for sale because they are perfect. They are for sale because there is a problem. If there was not a problem they would be keeping him/her.* The question has to be, what is the problem, why is he/she for sale. The answer to that question will determine if you want to deal with that problem. Puppies are always a gamble, pick good genetics and take your shot. But because of that gamble, green dogs are always more expensive. I usually find green dogs (10-18 months) with good potential usually run $4000 - $8000 depending on the amount of training/foundation/potential/genetics the green dog shows....You can greatly reduce the risk with hips/elbows (over a puppy) as they can be xrayed and get an idea at the 10 month age and they can get "a" stamped at 12 months.... Buying a green dog (especially if he is a strong dog) you will probably want to keep the 2 dogs separated, kennels or something. You don't want to buy a nice prospect/green dog and then bring him home to be dominated by the older dog...you also don't want him looking up to / learning from the older dog if he is not exactly the strongest dog. (no offense)
> 
> ...


I disagree somewhat with the bolded part. 

There is a whole market for green dogs which is more profitable than just selling puppies so there doesn't have to be a problem. I know breeders that specialize in selling dogs to the police. The police doesn't take puppies, so the good prospects are kept up until they get the A stamp and than sold. 

So it's not necessarily because the dog has an issue. 
However, you are right, many do sell the dog because there is a problem, be it personal or with the dog.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Not all green dogs are problems....there are a few people who raise out a puppy specifically to sell as green dogs, or get back a pup whose family insisted they understood what they were getting, did the research, wanted to do the sport etc. I have kept back and sold quite a few pups as green dogs - in my case, as I am not in a big active club to sell puppies to members, it has been a way to get youngsters into good working homes! At least 6 or 8 pups were kept back specifically to raise out a bit and all are title....I did the same with my K litter - but due to an accident, the one male is now on co-ownership and another returned due to new baby etc....is doing HGH as I am not in a position to train...he was started as a pup before the reality actually set in on the buyer who was going to do schutzhund, then life got in the way. I am sure there are other small breeders out there like me who raise up a pup to 6 or 8 or 10 months old with the express desire to get them into a working home. Of course, the price is going to be a good bit more than the 8 week old puppy price. Maybe in Germany this is more common and breeders with kennel facilities just raise up unsold pups until they are 'green' dogs...but here it is not so common.....

And yes, I have seen a lot of dogs whose owners are 'washing' them out sell as green dogs or even LE prospects....dogs with training issues....which is going to make it that much harder to find the dog kept back on purpose and raised to be sold to a working home..

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Thanks Frank! That information is greatly appreciated. Same to Mrs. K! But I can only quote one post at a time
> 
> That is part of the reason I want to buy in the US. I don't believe videos, and have seen many people on this site and others overpay for what is a very average dog. That's why I was considering doing just that - going with our helper and TD to check out the dog for ourselves.
> 
> ...


I would honestly shop around. Nala was a lucky catch. 

The breeder had promised two females to a good friend of my parents (same guy who trained and took Asko vom Siegelgrund to the Nationals in Germany before he was sold to the US). Only that that friend had quit SchH all together by the time he got Nala. 
He saw her potential right away and Mom knew that I was looking for a dog. Even had advised me not to buy another dog and to concentrate on Indra but when they saw her potential they were like "Get her! You'd be stupid not to take her." 

There are dogs like that out there. The best thing you can do is to take it slow. If you want a dog "Now!" you are going to end up with something mediocre. 
Take your time and you will find the perfect match and do shop around. Take a trusted helper or handler with you. 

Also, if anyone says they have great connections and can help you find a dog or sell a dog but won't tell you who that connection is, no matter how long you know these people, tell them politely that you are not interested. Some people are only out to make a quick buck and they will take advantage of any situation, no matter how good and great they are on the field, they are nothing but brokers and "Dog Dealers" when you look behind that facade.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think good ballparks. The 5-6K range is what I was finding looking (shortly about 2 years ago) at young adult prospects from stock bred for police service. When I was looking a big issue was DOD was snagging good dogs making it competitive; I don't know if that has dropped off now or declining police department budgets have opened up that market.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Just a suggestion to throw in the mix if you do decide to go the puppy route you could hire someone to help with potty chores, petsitter/dog walker. That would decrease the frequnency of accidents and does help speed up the potty training process if you can't be there.

Good luck with your search puppy or young adult. 



ayoitzrimz said:


> Funny  You know we all have the things we prefer to spend time on. I will gladly (and have been) wake up at 4AM and go tracking before work. I'll also come home and do obedience after a day's work every day. I will gladly drive 2 hours each way twice a week to spend 20 minutes doing bitework.
> 
> What I don't like, is dealing with messing in the house, taking the dog out every freaking hour to potty, coming home to a soiled crate. Taking them to the vet back and forth, etc etc. Sorry, I just don't. Will I do it with a puppy? Of course, I'll put all my energy into it, but I am certainly entitled to my preferences. Don't you agree? That's why I am considering an older dog. I certainly do not work close enough to come walk the pup in the middle of the day nor am I able to telecommute...


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I am certainly taking my time with this search. I've spent the past month just thinking if I am ready to get another dog. I will gladly spend a year searching. I might even just take up a "keep your ears open" attitude about it and see if some opportunities come up... 

Not sure, but as Frank said: "exciting times!"


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Just a suggestion to throw in the mix if you do decide to go the puppy route you could hire someone to help with potty chores, petsitter/dog walker. That would decrease the frequnency of accidents and does help speed up the potty training process if you can't be there.
> 
> Good luck with your search puppy or young adult.


That is also true, but I don't trust anyone! and the people I do trust live too far away hehe  Kidding. Good suggestion though


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm with you on the trust issue! 

If you do go that route I would take a look at PSI (Pet Sitters International www.petsit.com) listings of petsitters/walkers in your area.

...and even then I would still do a lot of due diligence, insurance, references and a couple of test runs to make sure it's all good. 




ayoitzrimz said:


> That is also true, but I don't trust anyone! and the people I do trust live too far away hehe  Kidding. Good suggestion though


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I am certainly taking my time with this search. I've spent the past month just thinking if I am ready to get another dog. I will gladly spend a year searching. I might even just take up a "keep your ears open" attitude about it and see if some opportunities come up...
> 
> Not sure, but as Frank said: "exciting times!"



Yep, the keeping your ears open, is the best way to find a dog sometimes. I had completely given up looking for a dog when Mom called and said "Get that female, NOW!" 

Even though I may never title her because of the distance, she is exceptional and I will title her in something and may it just be lure coursing.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

While Frank is right that it is usually buyer beware, like Lee has pointed out, there are people who keep back puppies to grow up and bit and sell later. There is a market for green dogs in this country and the fact that buyers have to go over seas to get them makes no sense. Why can they look over seas, but a young dog available here must be for sale "for a reason"? 

I have considered raising up a male from my next litter to sell later. I will never keep another male to title (I like working bitches), but know that there is a market for these young dogs. 

Figure 2-4X a puppy price for a really nice young dog. Take your time and get experienced help to test the dog for you.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

lhczth said:


> Figure 2-4X a puppy price for a really nice young dog. Take your time and get experienced help to test the dog for you.


When I did this with Grim, I had two different police trainers in my discipline evaluate him, got x-rayed and blood panels and exam (I paid for the panels and exam) and got an agreement 30 days no questions asked to return him. Obviously I did most of the work up front and we both felt good about the agreement we had. I am not sure if most would do the 30 days but he offered. I already knew he had another 'taker' (one of the police officers who evaluated him for me)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm raising a puppy right now for a friend that held him back and there's nothing wrong with him. The reason the breeder held him back was because she got a ton of interest for active family pets, agility, obedience, etc but the pedigree is more appropriate for Schutzhund so she held back the two best puppies. We are taking our time with them. She is in no rush to sell them just to get money or have them gone and we don't mind hanging onto them until they find the best home where they can be worked to their potential. I'm just crazy and like to have a puppy around. The breeder is a good friend of mine so I offered to take one. I would have bought him myself already except that I bred my dog and always planned to get one of his puppies when they are ready in July and I'm not crazy enough to have two puppies in my house at once!

I considered a green dog before I got Pan but found that the biggest thing is finding dogs that were raised the way I raise them, meaning in the house so they are calm in a crate, sleep through the night, potty trained, OK around other dogs, not kenneled dogs. It's hard to find a green dog that was born in a home and raised in a home and doesn't have something wrong with it. Of course a dog with good temperament, nerve, and off switch should transition from kennel to home fairly quickly but in the end I got a baby puppy again because there was so much more to choose from.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

lhczth said:


> While Frank is right that it is usually buyer beware, like Lee has pointed out, there are people who keep back puppies to grow up and bit and sell later. There is a market for green dogs in this country and the fact that buyers have to go over seas to get them makes no sense. Why can they look over seas, but a young dog available here must be for sale "for a reason"?
> 
> I have considered raising up a male from my next litter to sell later. I will never keep another male to title (I like working bitches), but know that there is a market for these young dogs.
> 
> Figure 2-4X a puppy price for a really nice young dog. Take your time and get experienced help to test the dog for you.


Lisa while you and Lee are correct. I think this practice of holding back pups, raising, imprinting, siocializing and selling as "Green dogs" is MUCH more prevelent in Europe than in the U.S.

They may be a few people in this country doing it but for the most part the breeders/ competitors I know, if they held back a pup to grow up to be 12 months old. If it was THAT awesome, they would keep it for themselves (I know I would).... I think in this country the dog with a "reason" is for sale much more than the dog that was held back, properly socialized, properly imprinted and developed and then sold, plus, in my experiences, that dog I believe would be a lot more money.... My point was only the dog is for sale for a reason. My young dog I have now I got when he was 10 months. He is a great dog, but there was a reason he was for sale. The reason was perfectly acceptable for me and I have not had one single issue with him at all....

I sold a 14 month old (only young dog I have ever sold) because we just didn't mesch... he had super drive, nice tracking, perfect calm grip...he just didn't have enough fight in his heart for me.....Great dog, but he was for sale for a reason.....That reason was not a problem at all for the person who bought him....


When I said there is a "reason" he is for sale, I did not mean to imply it was a big problem....Just a "reason"


Frank


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I was looking for a green dog a few months ago. The price range was my biggest deterrent. All the ones I was looking at were between $5k-$8k. I was looking in Europe as it does seem to be more popular there. I have some friends that always get green dogs and have great luck with them. They have does this for about a thousand years now and have many friends and connections to find the right dogs for them. I think a green dog is a much easier way to go. 

There are breeders here that hold back dogs to see how their breeding's are matching up. I was told by one breeder they often do this so they can see first hand what they are producing. No second guessing on how someone is raising the dog if you do it yourself. That being said even the green dogs in the states seemed triple or more the puppy price. I ended up going the puppy route and just want him to grow up already haha.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Yes - I agree Frank....there are many many more working breeders in Europe who look at the cash aspect of a litter and hold a few back to sell as green dogs....just look at the dogs available through a few big brokers here! Those brokers advertise LOOKING for green dogs in Europe on the database to resell. There are just not that many breeders here comparatively. I could sell green police prospects all day long if I wanted to keep males back and raise them...I know several NAPAWDA Master Trainers here and they ask me often for dogs. The issue is - just like with clubs, training and helpers!!!! - this is a huge country and statistically there are very very few people in the sport, breeding and training!! Finding the people who actually breed, rather than produce pups from imported dogs who haven't really worked dogs, understand their lines etc is even harder to find! In 50 square miles in Germany, Belgium or Czech Republic, you will find more breeders, clubs, helpers than in the state of Texas or California or New York!

I will definitely try to keep back a young male from my next litter for sale as a green dog, along with a female for myself. What is hard to find is, as Lisa points out, a home raised working prospect. One who is OK with kids, cats, other dogs, has gone to the store, to an AKC club for puppy agility and manners, and who will settle in the house rather than a kennel raised young dog. A friend who is a State Trooper has taken a few pups to raise for me so I can separate a pair, and he imprints tracking (he put a sch3 on my Pike dtr, so knows the process besides doing K9 work) and clicker. 

And, as Lisa says, few people do this. Personally, I have always been geographically challenged for tracking and training, and personal resources, so big competition is beyond my comfort zone....but I like to train and have sold a couple of dogs specifically because some one else COULD train and do better with the dog than I could have! I am sure I am not the only one in this position....now, with decent training 200+ miles in any direction and physically impaired, I will raise out the best prospect for sale later in my next litter.

We need more helpers/clubs!!! LOL I have access to two farms, one with a nice outdoor field for blinds, and another 200 acre farm - lots of fields for tracking, a big indoor arena for winter work...but no helper!

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I considered a green dog before I got Pan but found that the biggest thing is finding dogs that were raised the way I raise them, meaning in the house so they are calm in a crate, sleep through the night, potty trained, OK around other dogs, not kenneled dogs. It's hard to find a green dog that was born in a home and raised in a home and doesn't have something wrong with it. Of course a dog with good temperament, nerve, and off switch should transition from kennel to home fairly quickly but in the end I got a baby puppy again because there was so much more to choose from.


Kenneled dogs are not that hard to deal with in the house. Yukon was a kennel dog for five years before I got him. So was Zenzy and so was Nala. 

Kenneled dogs are super easy to deal with in the house. They easily housebreak and sleep through the night, no issues with crating them whatsoever either. 
All my kenneled dogs have been easy going in the house, easier than trying to raise a puppy or taking over a dog that was actually raised in the house. 
Yukon maybe had a single accident in the house, Zenzy and Nala had none. 

A nice dog is still a nice dog whether they had been kenneled or not doesn't matter.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> And, as Lisa says, few people do this. Personally, I have always been geographically challenged for tracking and training, and personal resources, so big competition is beyond my comfort zone....but I like to train and have sold a couple of dogs specifically because some one else COULD train and do better with the dog than I could have! I am sure I am not the only one in this position....now, with decent training 200+ miles in any direction and physically impaired, I will raise out the best prospect for sale later in my next litter.
> 
> We need more helpers/clubs!!! LOL I have access to two farms, one with a nice outdoor field for blinds, and another 200 acre farm - lots of fields for tracking, a big indoor arena for winter work...but no helper!


Ain't that the truth.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

This really was a successful thread for me  many questions were answered and more questions were exposed hehe... I think the bottom line here is a green dog is doable, and has been done before, but like all things consider the source and make sure you know WHY this dog is "on the market" so to speak


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

For us, it might be a timing thing of the age differences inbetween dogs that Gabor kept to work, being too close. We do not keep dogs to grow out or foster out. If we keep a dog, the intention is to work and title ourselves.

At one point, he had Frodo and Quasi, then Griff (2 years younger than Frodo), then Norbo (1 year younger than Griff). Them broken arm 2 years ago through a loop into training and then a year later to take out plates and screws.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I've never owned a green dog (only green horses)... so I don't have a comparison. However, this is something I was considering for the next dog AND something I did consider before I bought Storm. My thoughts were pretty much exactly what you stated.

I obviously went the puppy route. And here's what I've found:

What I did notice with starting a pup is.... there is a LOT of work and wait time to go through. There's also a good chance of the dog not turning out to be what you are looking for... and when you're looking for your next sporting dog (which is a lot harder then just picking out a pet with the *possibility* of doing some sort of sport), this can certainly be a huge problem. Obviously, we all know the importance of good pedigree and how that helps to prevent this, but it's not 100% protection. Storm was/is stressful.... and I don't mean raising her or even training her. What I mean is... the health testing, waiting for the right time to xray, temperament testing through out the puppy-adult stage... not knowing what you're getting, praying for good results. Sure, you can get a good idea when you and your breeder pick them out and from researching the pedigree... but you certainly can't tell everything right from the start.

My hardest decision was picking out Storm with her breeder. I watched them develop from 4 weeks old until 9 weeks before we even picked out 3 to temperament test again and again to see the results. It was tough. But, it amazed me how much was STILL in the dark.

The one great thing about a green younger dog (from what I've learned over the time and through my trainer and other people in IPO) is that you can, for the most part, see what you're getting (as long as you test them thoroughly and correctly). It's a little more expensive most of the time... but, you don't have to go through teething or potty training or anything like that... you can take of running. 

The biggest turn off I had with that was.... I enjoy the tiny puppy stage, and I love the bond I have with a dog I raised. It's hard for me to agree to give that up. It also gives you a pretty clean slate.

Anyway, sorry for the novel.... I just completely understand the dilemma behind green vs. puppy and was just there about a year ago. It's an interesting thread to read so far. Good luck with your decision and future IPO dog!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have a green dog now, 15 months, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with, and will do as high level sport as the handlers ability. I also had one available last year that will be titled probably 1,2,and maybe three this year. I do agree that many times there are quirks that make a dog available.....but for me it is often no more than a younger dog pushing and I need to start working the youn ger one.


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