# Towards Personal Protection Dog, allow strangers to pet and fondle puppy or not?



## lone Ranger

Two GSDs raised... 60 y.o. Man... I travel in remote areas of Australia, with $250-500K in equipment. He will be a near constant companion except in the city at times, and will travel with me in the Bush. Best Mate, but there is a Security Function he needs to fill. That will be his job. He will be mostly just deterent, but must bluff well enough to do a security function. We cannot travel interstate with guns in Australia, so he will be headed towards a PPD function. When I am not around, NO ONE approaches him..

*For a certain degree of Social Aggression*, should I allow him to be touched by strangers? You know, everyone want to pet and love up a puppy.. Or should it be a bond with just me handling him (definitely at first). 

I am looking for your Security Minded Advice. I am thinking: If anything have strangers make him a little uncomfortable? He will be large for a GSD, Black, intimidating already. I am just thinking I do not want him to be looking to strangers for affection, but be more mistrustful, for the security function he will perform. Your thoughts?

Thank you from Australia


----------



## llombardo

The standard temperament for a GSD is...Temperament is confident, fearless but aloof; eager, alert, and willing to work. If the dog comes from a good background it will have all the traits you are looking for. If you just want the dog as a deterrent, then you are off to a good start. Others will chime in, but my belief is that you don't want a dog that will bark at everything or attack everything..you want a dog that can tell the difference between good and bad. My GSD loves people, but she doesn't go out of her way to approach strangers, if its family then she turns into a excited puppy. She was heavily socialized with other dogs, cats, people, little people, etc. When she was younger I allowed anyone that asked to pet her, but again I must say that if we go to the pet store now she doesn't approach them, but they(mostly the workers because they have known her since she was a puppy) will approach her and she will accept it. She doesn't bark at everything, so when she does bark I know something isn't right.


----------



## x11

i would have thought the standard thing is to have yr dog exposed to as many different people as possible in order to develop confidence socially regardless of PPD or not. unless yr dog is going to live it's whole life in the same backyard and never leave it and it attacks everything that approaches regardless.

i don't mean they all should molest yr dog but the pup should be exposed to neutral strangers of every race, color and creed jmo especially children.

best done with like minded folks if possible.

my guess is having yr pup a little uncomfortable around starngers will be greatly counter-productive to a PPD, i would want a PPD prospect to be comfortable around everyone and everything and go from there. 

power comes from strength and strength comes from confidence and confidence is most easily destroyed by having a puppy uncomfortable around strange people or strange things. all jmo.

seems you have a lot of things to sort thru which is fine, hope you get them sorted *before* you get this pup. 

please feel free to put me on ignore or just say don't post on yr threads if you think i am being rude or whatever. just trying to help yr pup and you with what little experience i have gained - not an expert. most experts you will have to pay for advice, the rest of us help out where we can.


----------



## lone Ranger

Thank you x11,

I am trying to resolve this now, because I am picking up the pup, visited twice, at 10 weeks in January 15. 10 weeks, because I am living the "Dances With Wolves" a bit, out with horses, last frontier in Oz (Australia). Ten weeks old because I am doing a 10 day Yellowstone dead of winter trip by SnowCat and snowmobile to see the wolves in action where the animals gather around the thermal events.. He will be in some basic obedience training with the Breeders whom I trust, and I will go get him as soon as I return, and he will be with me at work at Bushtracker, and home, ALL the time.. I am doing this study pre work now, as I leave for Yellowstone end of December. 

*I am gathering as many opinions as possible, so I can do this properly.* I can judge a bit by the posts on this Forum, and hopefully reach a consensus of opinion. He will bond with me 24 hours a day, 24/7. He will seldom be left in a yard on my horse property.. After the first few months he will get plenty of socialization, I am just unsure on the first 5 months or so, about greeting everyone with lick and tail wag to get petted and attention. I thought maybe I should keep him a bit out of the public coddling at first.. *Maybe this is a middle ground.* I will have children socialize with him, there is no reason to have ANY hostility around children. I was just unsure about adult strangers.. I can see two views and possibilities on this. 

Maybe I will do both, isolation while bonding, then more public exposure and for sure children interaction in friendly play.. Never know, I might have Grandchildren some day, likely with 3 kids of my own now grown. 

Thank you for your frank answers, even blunt you are to the point and I can see your experience showing through.. No offense taken, here or on the other Thread. 

lone Ranger, on Oz..


----------



## lone Ranger

Just a followup: Not a brag but, I am as successful as I am, 48 Employees, because I do not do things haphazardly. I try and plan, gather information from experts like you, and then calculate my course as scientifically as possible. This pup means a lot to me, and I have three weeks to decide how to handle him. I am gone to Yellowstone dead of winter on Expedition to see wolves in action around the thermal events end of December, and will not be back to pick up the pup until he is 10 weeks old Jan 15. I trust the Breeders, and they will teach him basic obedience in my absence.

I live "Dances with Wolves", out on the last frontier in Australia.. Love Shepherds as my best mate, and don't want to make any more mistakes. I respect your advice on this matter.

lone Ranger


----------



## GSDElsa

I think when your dog is a PUPPY you should absolutely let strangers handle them. Puppies should think people are AWESOME and puppies should be well socialized. As your dog matures and that natural aloofness starts to get developed, then avoid from strangers getting touchy-feely. You want your dog to not be friendly, but you don't want your dog to not know how to interact with "good" people either. But young puppies is another story....as long as you are comforatble with the person I say let them play. Obviously if you have reservations about the person for whatever reason then pass.


----------



## llombardo

lone Ranger said:


> Thank you x11,
> 
> . After the first few months he will get plenty of socialization, I am just unsure on the first 5 months or so, .


This is the most important time for socialization. A GSD is not a dog that you don't want socialized. Socialization is the key to getting a well rounded dog, well that and the genes. This dog will bond with you in training and just being with you...they know who there owners are. There is also no reason for this dog to be hostile around adults either...your looking for a lawsuit, because if this dog bites it will mean business. Just this dog going into an alert mode is enough for people to back down. People run the other way when they see mine, its actually very disturbing. I've also had people ask me if its okay to walk past me, which is really crazy, but the whole time my dog doesn't make a peep, but she watches and she watches very intently. I'm interested in hearing what your breeder said to do with the pup?


----------



## llombardo

lone Ranger said:


> *I asked this in the general puppy section, but would also like the opinion of Professionals please.. [/U]
> 
> *


*

This is crazy:crazy:So us regular people who own a GSD don't know what we are talking about? You didn't like the answers in the original posts? I highly doubt that your going to get anyone to say that your new puppy doesn't need to be socialized. This is a forum, some people have years of experience with this breed. How do you think the rest of us learn? Yep us regular folks know how to read and research too..*


----------



## GSDElsa

I think he wanted the opinion from PPD/K-9 trainers since that is what his dog will be and raising that type of dog can indeed be very different than your average dog owner  I don't think he meant any offense by it (and I'm not a PPD trainer, as you can see I still took it upon myself to comment lol)


----------



## Freestep

My opinion is that a PP dog needs to have a good sense of discrimination, needs to know who is a bad guy and who is just a guy minding his own business. The only way for a dog to learn discrimination is to meet as many people as possible, from an early age. Introduce him to people of every age, sex, appearance and color... kids running and playing like kids do... teenagers being teenagers... bicycles, joggers, strollers, horses, skateboards, other dogs, policemen and other uniforms, men in hats, men with beards, babies, etc. etc. etc.

Only then is a pup going to learn that most people are just fine, so he doesn't need to fear or feel defensive over the benign day-to-day activities of normal people.

Then, at a certain phase of maturity and training, you will introduce a "bad guy", and the dog learns to recognize what a real threat looks like. Because he already knows what isn't a real threat, your dog is not going to go off half-cocked over every stranger walking by.

It is, of course, very important that the dog have the correct temperament for this kind of work. Confident, clear-headed, stable, strong-nerved and biddable. If the dog is the least bit insecure, nervous, or fearful, he's not a good candidate as a PP dog. He'll look intimidating from behind the fence, but you can't count on him to protect you when push comes to shove.


----------



## lone Ranger

GSDElsa said:


> I think he wanted the opinion from PPD/K-9 trainers since that is what his dog will be and raising that type of dog can indeed be very different than your average dog owner  I don't think he meant any offense by it (and I'm not a PPD trainer, as you can see I still took it upon myself to comment lol)


Very good GSDElsa, you are right on... Further, the answer gave me pause to reflect, and it struck a chord of truth here... llombardo, that is exactly it, no offence. I did a very good job, or got lucky with my personal Companion Dakota. He almost senses what I am thinking. Sadly he is moving slower and slower these days and getting ready to check out. This pup means a lot to me, and I am gathering opinions to do the job right. I did not know if PPD/K-9 or Professional Security Trainers might have a strong opinion on this or not, so this question so I can weigh up the responses......

GSDElsa, I thank you, and it feels right to me.. I was just not sure, and had never tried not having people socialize with my pup when young, hence appealing for help to do it all right. If it does not work out, I am happy to find him a good home and start again, I just want to do the best of my ability to do it right. Hence the appeal to you other GSD Owners. *Thank you..* So far your response is going to be my course of action. You seem correct on my reflection, and that is how I raised Cody. 

Due to luck or my training: On a lead or chained up, he was on duty. Off lead, he only burred up if he sensed my concern or aggression, or I gave him his command. In ten years, he never hurt anyone, did not have to.

lone Ranger in Oz...


----------



## lone Ranger

Thank you, so far the concensus is the same... I have never held a pup to myself and not let strangers handle him, pet him, say hello puppy style.. *I did not know if this could be an advantage some how, hence this Thread.*

I was looking to see if that might make him a little more wary or protective or bonded to me. My loyal Dog Dakota raised in the manner like you suggest, Cody was only really on duty when chained up in a truck or something. When loose he was the big boofy anybodys friend, ready for a scratch or pat. Both of my Shepherds have not hurt anyone. I am just looking for the right approach starting from the puppy stage for the best outcome.. 

I am getting older, and would like a bit more of a protective dog looking out for me, but certainly not a menace to the Public. Just alert and a bit wary around strangers. Cody at times, would not let them get out of their car until I told him it was alright. That is what I want, a bit of attitude... And to make sure I did not just get lucky with Cody. 

I have to ask, to get your cumulative experience and judgement...


----------



## x11

what is the training plan beyond the puppy phase, what level of protection do you require, a tough looking dog that will bark/growl on command a dog that put people in hospital on command or die trying...? 

no such thing as an untrained PPD.

you say you plan ahead, so far its a few weeks ahead at most, if yr dog is actuall going to be capable you should have a complete training schedule from birth to retirement already in place for this to work and to avoid certain dissappointment/disaster or both. do you know how much damage these dogs can do and most likely to the wrong person and the full time committment owning/training one especially from the puppy phase.


----------



## Wolfgeist

Your best bet is to actually go through some protection work training with an experienced trainer. THAT is the only way to ensure your dog will carry through with a response to a serious threat, and not back down in uncertainty or fear. (And actually know what to do, on a foundation of obedience for you to control what essentially becomes a weapon) 

If you need a true protection dog, you'll need an experienced trainer. A lack of socialization doesn't create a good guard dog, it creates an uncertain/unconfident dog that won't know how to respond. Most dogs that are reactive to people and bark and growl would sooner flee than confront a threat... it is the well socialized, exposed, TRAINED dog that takes on the threat with confidence as your partner.

Make sense?


----------



## lone Ranger

Thank you Wild Wolf, and x11... The truth outs now, you are both in line with what I thought all along, but I wanted to make sure I was on the right track.. *Call this "Reality Check"..* I told my Wife, who was concerned about the interaction with children (hoping for Grandchildren I think), I told Her that the more training a dog got, the more reliable they actually were. 

Now this was based on my limited experience (2 GSDs), But I thought a dog that was aroud people all day, all the time like this one will be, *the more training he had, the more stable and reliable he would be. * I told Her that based on my experience, the more training he had, the less likely he would have a random aggressive response.. It would only be on command.....

Wild Wolf, I fell in love with the GSDs after "Dances With Wolves".. German Shepherds are one of the smartest and as close as I could get. I am going on a dead of winter Yellowstone trip to get close to see them in action. At last report, 98 in 10 packs inside Yellowstone, and about 300 kills. They have discerning taste too, predominately Elk.. heh he.. Yours somehow looks like your pen name.... Maybe it is the snow background, and my leaving in less than 3 1/2 weeks...

Best regards from Oz...


----------



## Wolfgeist

lone Ranger said:


> Thank you Wild Wolf, and x11... The truth outs now, you are both in line with what I thought all along, but I wanted to make sure I was on the right track.. *Call this "Reality Check"..* I told my Wife, who was concerned about the interaction with children (hoping for Grandchildren I think), I told Her that the more training a dog got, the more reliable they actually were.
> 
> Now this was based on my limited experience (2 GSDs), But I thought a dog that was aroud people all day, all the time like this one will be, *the more training he had, the more stable and reliable he would be. * I told Her that based on my experience, the more training he had, the less likely he would have a random aggressive response.. It would only be on command.....
> 
> Wild Wolf, I fell in love with the GSDs after "Dances With Wolves".. German Shepherds are one of the smartest and as close as I could get. I am going on a dead of winter Yellowstone trip to get close to see them in action. At last report, 98 in 10 packs inside Yellowstone, and about 300 kills. They have discerning taste too, predominately Elk.. heh he.. Yours somehow looks like your pen name.... Maybe it is the snow background, and my leaving in less than 3 1/2 weeks...
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards from Oz...


I hear you, my friend. Spent 10 years visiting Haliburton Wolf Center 2-3 times a month to research and observe. The sable west German shepherds make me feel close to wolves somehow, they look very wolflike. Wolves were the reason I chose the GSD as my breed so many years ago.

Should also mention got to watch a wild pack in Algonquin, Ontario...


----------



## Castlemaid

I merged the two threads - much better to have all the answers in one place.


----------



## lone Ranger

CastleMaid,

I regret that you have done this. It was not accidental that I did this, I was looking for perspectives from two different directions. One a Sporting/Family/ or Personal Dog and one from the perspective of a Trainer in Professional K-9 or PPD category. 

I have raised two GSDs, and this new pup I get on Jan 15 at 10 weeks old, I wanted to raise the best way possible for my needs. This is Research: I thought I might see perspectives from two different angles on this, that I could get a feel for Domestic vrs Professional training angles... There was a reason I put it in two places... I only have about 3 weeks left before I fly out on Expedition to see the Wolves in action in the dead of winter in Yellowstone. I am back about the 14th of January, and pick up my all black Working Dog style European bloodline GSD on the 15th, already in obedience training twice a day, at 10 weeks.

Thank you for your management of this wonderful Forum, but I accept this merger with regrets...

lone Ranger in Oz, living "Dances with Wolves" as best as possible out on the "Last Frontier" with horses, in Australia.


----------



## x11

you "regret this merger".....lawyer?


----------



## lone Ranger

Lawyer?  What, "regret this merger" too big of words for you x11? :laugh::laugh::laugh: Actually Director of Bushtracker. I have not called you any bad names x11...:laugh::laugh:

For your interest, I am Director, Inventor, Outback 4x4 self sufficient live in trailers, Military independent load sharing suspension, body armour, watertight to cross rivers to 1.2 metres, United Nations grade refridgeration running on Solar, Water Sterilization systems, and a whole lot more. 48 Employees, Number One in Australia in 4x4 Caravans, and backed up to July 2013 in Deliveries of custom Orders..... Modern Wagon Train gear towed by diesels in 4x4 remote regions.. Not a Brag, a Blessing of the Lord.. Free Website, Free Forum, patterned after this style of Forum with Categories of Interest, 16 years going now. Bushtracker

*x11, I only LOOK stupid....* Western Gear living like 1880s... Pot belly stove in house, Travelling with horses and GSDs, Born 150 years too late my 1/2 blood Lakota Sioux Grandfather said... 

For any of you GSD Owners that have been helping me, *my gift to you*, free viewing of my Website to see pictures of very remote country on the Last Frontier in Australia. www.bushtracker.com and my Owners Forum on www.bushtrackerownersforum.com or there is a link to it on the Website. This is not spam, I am not selling anything, I am booked out, this a gift to you to see some interesting gear and country in Australia, free of charge, not spam..
My way of saying thank you and returning something to you for your help.. Free armchair travel to Oz, you are welcome.

Kind regards, "Dances with Wolves" out on the Last Frontier in Australia...


----------



## sparra

Great website....will pass it onto my brother....he has a 4x4 business in Tamworth....sells suspension and does specialised conversions of 4X4 vehicles. I could definitely put one of your vans on my wishlist.....travel the outback in style and comfort.....luxury!!!!


----------



## lone Ranger

No wonder I liked the look of your GSD there Sparra....

I got some new pictures today of the large German Working dog line, of "Zulu" his Sire and "Bindi" his Grandmother... (Both have long complicated Registration name besides). The Sire of my pup here in Australia, looks a lot alike, just a little heavier coat. Glamour Coat they call it here, not a long hair, not bushy around the base of the ears, just a plusher coat... 

Anyway, Sparra, he has that same look, "really good" yea that look... 










My Pup is a four week old floppy ear black fuzzball with the tonge hangin out.. He does have a few white hairs chest spot like his dad in the picture, and appears to have the Glamour coat... Hope he is big and carries that "look"...


----------



## carmspack

the quality that you are looking for is intrinsic , inherent in the dog and can not be subverted or corrupted by strangers greeting the dog as a youngster -- because generally people do not once the dog starts getting bigger and no longer puppyish .

All the dogs I have , and now my partner is crime or is it crime-prevention Mike Clay , prepared for police service or personal protection , are allowed to receive the attention from strangers who admire the dog , want to ask questions etc. Never , does the dog seek out attention . The dog and then carries on. 
Now then , the one thing we don't do is to make the dog inhibited in contact . The dog may not be corrected by the interested person should the dog be a bit rambunctious . They are told ahead of time .


----------



## KatsMuse

Hi Lone Ranger!

Sent you a private message... This is where I would go/contact, if I need a decent PPD dog and advice.

 Kat


----------



## lone Ranger

I would like to thank all of you... I am convinced..

I will raise him like I did Dakota, and let him socialize with people as a puppy...

I was only looking to see if there was a way to improve the development towards a more personal Dog..

I am convinced, Thank You all...


----------



## x11

ranger be great if you could make the effort to type in the;

"long complicated Registration name "

and if possible a link to the pdb - genetics will have a good say (but not necessarily final) in the type of work the dog may/may not do.


----------



## lone Ranger

From talking with 28 Breeders and a half dozen Trainers, here in Australia a lot of people go for genotype and not knowing more, my priority was phenotype, looking for the larger boned European Working Dog type of GSD.. 

Looking at the Gene pool for tempermant, in my view was still just the luck of the draw, maybe 50/50 like in horses. It is a help, but I had no reference point and bought this Dog before I found this Forum... 

I went for him from his attack mode stance, here in stalking mode, ready to pounce...










Alright here is a cut and paste copy, 5 generations back, I can only put it in this format, it is in PDF and I cannot even put a link to photobucket with it. Here are all the GSDs in his line back 5 Generations, see if you can make anything out of it.... Dog and Bitch lines, all I could do...
EX (AUST) Turnberry
Stands Alone
ANKC/N161920
Andacht Britany
Turnberry Super
Impose
Troy von der
Noriswand
SZ/2040827
Turnberry Smart
Cookie
Andacht Mariah
SG Kim vom Kaibach
SZ/1901148
SchH3 FH
V2 Natz von der
Römerau
SZ/1806910
SchH2
V Gilla vom Kaibach
SZ/1819670
Andacht Letsgo
Krakin
SCHH1
EX (AUS) AUST. CH.
Lesko vom
Wildsteiger Land
SZ/1900372
Venesthorn Foxy
Dazzler AZ
Maraya Ebony Jade
Maraya black falcon
AUST/4100046085
SARITON
CARERRA
AUST/1323377
Jaimon Druze
AUST/1170677
Manisar Hyacinth
AUST/1099519
Osenbruck Ebonie
AUST/1338219
Bluemax Greek Flyer
AUST/1029869
BLUEMAX ZIGGY
Maraya Sharna
Sampenny Silver
Shadow
AUST. GRAND
CHAMPION Crossfire
Claim To Fame 'A' 'Z'
Bscl.1
N/1223804
Sampenny Cher
Schwarzstihl Mariah
SARITON
CARERRA
AUST/1323377
Schwarzstihl Shaka
SCHH3
VA10 Orbit von
Tronje
SZ/2037762
SchH3
VA8 Neptun von Bad-
Boll
SZ/1959513
SCHH3
V2 Yassko von der
Roten Matter
SZ/1869422
SchH1
V26 Eibe von Bad-
Boll
SZ/1891841
SCHH3
VA4 VA1(N) Natz
Pallendon Reggae
VH3
V3 Mike vom
Estherlager
NHSB/2347723
SchH1
V Babette von Tronje
SZ/1959640
vom Steigerhof
SZ/1841632
BHP3
VA6 Bertha's Oline
SZ/1959638
VZH IPO 1
V (NL) Essie vom
Estherlager
NHSB/2064451
VH2
V Haswin von Haus
Hanne
SZ/1959601
SchH3
VA Lupo vom
Klosterbogen
SZ/1799709
VH1
V Kelly von der
Herderskring
SZ/9014240
SG Ute vom
Endebruch
SZ/1836828
SCHH3, IPO3, FH
VA3 Hoss vom
Hasenborn
SZ/1753395
SchH1
V Hera vom Nassauer
Berg
SZ/1772856
SchH3
VA1 (N) Hagadahls
Arex
SchH3/FH
V Wobo vom
Lärchenhain
SZ/1824926
SchH3
V Chico von der
Lohner Heide
SZ/1751110
SchH1
VA4 (NL) Joga vom
Nieuwlandshof
SZ/1824916
BSCL.1
Cornelia vom
Fiemereck
SZ/2008846
SchH1
V, FIN SIEGERIN-94
Winecke's Vanta
N/30562/93
SCHH3
V Janko von der
Wienerau
SZ/1738053
Winecke's Bibbi
SZ/9108771
SchH2
Sabrinana vom
Fiemereck
SZ/1896576
SCHH3
VA1 Kimon van Dan
Alhedy's Hoeve
SZ/1788156
SCHH3
VA4 Mark vom Haus
Beck
SZ/1669141
IPO1
V Candy van Dan
Alhedy's Hoeve
SZ/9003736
SchH3/IP2
V Häsel vom
Fiemereck
SZ/1797958
SCHH3, FH
2X VA1 Uran vom
Wildsteiger Land
SZ/1526684
SchH3
V Zasta vom
Fiemereck
SZ/1696021

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​


----------



## x11

you know this ped has a lot of straight up show dogs? did you even contact actual working dog breeders in the 28? australia would not actually hav 28 legit working dog breeders, prolly more like 10 max and about 5 that are not just off-shoots of someone else's kennel. this info is easy to find out just look at the breeders in australia that compete in shuts, definately not 28 breeders more like the 5 i mentioned.

not judging yr pup btw.


----------



## sparra

Your pup is very cute!!!
Don't recognize any names in his pedigree so doesn't look like he is related to my bloke but yes......the blacks are very striking (though I am probably biased )
Good luck with your pup and your business.....have a great time in Yellowstone.....don't get eaten by a wolf or anything silly.....


----------



## sparra

KatsMuse said:


> Hi Lone Ranger!
> 
> Sent you a private message... This is where I would go/contact, if I need a decent PPD dog and advice.
> 
> Kat


I would be interested to know what you found??


----------



## lone Ranger

Well, not being as well schooled in the GSDs Gentypes as you, not knowing about this Forum, not living in America with such vast resources, I did the best I could to get a Pup as close as possible before Cody dies. There are probably only 2-3 just working dog Breeders and no male pups available. They are often spoken for before they are born.

x11 I did the best I could, am going to get a second one in about 18 months, or sooner if this little fellow does not work out... But I have faith he will be just fine. Your comments are exactly why I did not want to put on the Ped, you cannot compare our resources here with what is in your 300 million people pool.  *The last person wanting what I want, waiting for the perfect bloodline, waited 18 months for a pup, and that is no guarantee.* Sire and Dam are flat backed very good x-ray scores. This was the best available in Australia that I could find and I wanted black.

This is replacement Therapy for me losing my Mate... Cody on medication is still limping, and will only do a short run and frolic play before he slows right back to a trot. He cannot beat his companion desexed Bitch Tonka to toys I throw anymore. He knows it and does not bring them too me for play, he is in trouble. I was hoping to capture some of his personality as the pup mimics the Alpha Dog before he passes on. *So I did the best I could*, but if he is not right he can be moved on or live at my horse property and I will go back shopping for a better pup. Actually, I want two of them, and don't care if I have a whole wolf pack at the property.

x11, if you have any more bad news about his Ped, please don't tell me. I am hoping for the best.


----------



## x11

relax ranger, i am not trying to bring you bad news. 

i thought you were on a different journey in yr original posts is all, now you talk about this deal as "...replacement Therapy for me losing my Mate... ".

thats totally cool but is not what i thought you originally asked for help with. 

neither journey is right or wrong or better or worse.

you assume i live in the states.

best wishes.


----------



## carmspack

working GSD in Australia - von Forell -- Law Enforcement Dogs | Law Enforcement Dogs . Your little black guy is show lines - but looks like a good solid build -


----------



## sparra

x11 said:


> you assume i live in the states.


Ahha......so you are an Aussie pretending to be an American.......I knew it!!!

My friend has a Von Forell dog......he is a very nice boy.....our dogs are closely related which is not hard to do here in OZ.


----------



## x11

Ahha what? pretend what?......you know what?????


----------



## lone Ranger

Carmspack,
Thank you for the lead to Von Forell.. If I lived in Melbourne, it might be a good thing to get involved with them, their Bloodlines, their training, but that is 2,200 kms away. I am going down there in March, might touch base and see their dogs... I hate ordering a pup blind, most like this are spoken for before you can see them, and 2,200 kms is a bit of a drive. 

Carmspack, Show lines? I had no idea. Without this Forum and not knowing the Ped, I did what I could. The ones in the Pedigree could see pictures of, most did not qualify to be Show Dogs as they were too tall for one. The dogs I saw at the Breeder were oversized to Show dogs, bigger bones, and more of the flat back style, where the Show Dogs in Australia normally have the drop off on the back, sort of arch back down angle to the hips.. And fairer bones. Not knowing better that is what I got in Cody ten years ago. *If this little Black Fellow does not have the protective and alert tempermant with high drive, that I am looking for, I will soon get another..* He is to be a Best Mate, but he has a job to do. 

Interestingly, back on track, Law Enforcement/PPD Owners have commented reservations on having too much public handling of the puppy by PM to help. The same with the PPD Trainers I contacted by email. They are more reserved about this puppy public socialization bit. And I can see both sides. There seems to be a little different view, not wanting the puppy to look to everyone for affection and entertainment.. *But be a little selective on who pets and handles him as a pup. Let there be a lot of interaction with children, but a little less affection from just general public, maybe only friends and family. *

*There does seem to be a middle ground opinion here... Thank you *


----------



## sparra

x11 said:


> Ahha what? pretend what?......you know what?????


Relax.....I was just joking around....hence the wink and the smile.....never mind.....


----------



## lone Ranger

*Important summation, info sharing here on the forum:*

*Wow, I have discovered something here... There is an undercurrent from Professionals that do not want to be in conflict with the Moderators or catch flack from the GSD pet owning Public for their views...(*no offence intended, I am just trying to describe a category of general GSD pet Owner) 

The Professionals are not adding to this Thread much. Their view is a little different, and I have gotten it in about the same substance from about 8 sources now, by Messaging, and email through Bushtracker, from Police, Guard, Security, and PPD Professional sorts. They did not want to go Public, for reservations about flack for "political correctness" or conflicts with Moderators for showing a side they did not want the public to see?? (guessing on my part)... That is a little sad for this Forum, but when I encounter it I am going to paraphrase the results for others like myself to benefit from. Here are their points, I will not copy, *I am paraphrasing their results as their answers were amazingly consistant: *

1) Go out of your way to have all children, be able to come up and love the puppy. This is an important function, the puppy should never perceive the Children as anything but fun and attention, and be very comfortable with them at all times. Children are NEVER a threat...

2) Socialization is at various levels, and *no it is not in your best interests to have just any Adult come up and fawn all over the puppy*. Only allow ones that ask permission, or Friends and Family, and of course ALL Children. Asking permission is an important part. It introduces the dog to people that you think are alright.

3) The GSD trait is to be a bit aloof anyway, do not expose the puppy to just anyone approaching and being overly friendly, it is not in your best interests for any kind of security or protection. *Strangers just coming up without permission can end up being a distraction to the dog, further can work against you, as most with Criminal Intent are well practiced at looking friendly and normal before they strike...*

4) Only allow people that you are comfortable with approach the puppy, not just any random stranger, and again by permission... Anyone you have any misgivings about, or something not right with them, do not allow them to approach or handle the puppy.

5) Finally on Liability, it seems that they agree that the more Training the dog has, the less likely there is to be any kind of random aggression without your command. They just will not take it on themselves to randomly lash out at someone, unless of course their Handler/Owner is attacked or commands them to respond. In other words, they all seem to say that the more training the dog has, the safer he is. 

The exception is Military and Police extreme attack trained dogs, some do not think they can return to the public because of potential misuse or accidental use of their commands, and sadly they say if the Handler does not get them, they are often "put down"... ****...

Anyway, in summary: *If you want a dog that is a little more protection oriented, then the answer to this Thread from the Professionals is a little more reserved than what has been stated here.* Sadly the Professionals when invited to post their answers on the thread, declined and hinted or expressed reservations about putting their answers here due to backlash or some unspecified friction.. One final quote that really stood out, and I actually got their permission to quote them, (they said it was not their original, possibly from the Breeds Developer) Quote is something like this: "You cannot expect your German Shepherd to protect the Sheep from the Wolves, if he is friends with the Wolves"

I hope this has been a help, I thank all of you that answered this Thread. I think the guidelines above are realistic and I accept them as the way to go.. 

Personally I think this Forum is GREAT.. And it is helping me a lot. Only weeks til I get my 3rd and hopefully best GSD... Parents are big boned, low 2/3 to 0/0 hip and elbow x-ray scores, and kind of flat back and oversized to the show dogs maximums..

Kind regards, lone Ranger out on the "Last Frontier" with GSDs and Horses...


----------



## KatsMuse

The Professionals are not adding to this Thread much. Their view is a little different, and I have gotten it in about the same substance from about 8 sources now, by Messaging, and email through Bushtracker, from Police, Guard, Security, and PPD Professional sorts. *...They did not want to go Public, for reservations about flack for "political correctness" or conflicts with Moderators for showing a side they did not want the public to see?? (guessing on my part)...
*


----------



## x11

KatsMuse said:


>


 
+ 1


----------



## DFrost

Lone Ranger, you aren't being totally fair in your summation of "professionals". Most police trainers don't buy puppies so we really don't have the experience with puppies in general. we buy adult dogs. They can be tested to ensure they have the nerves, behaviors etc we are looking for. That way we don't wast 18 months to find out the dog is a nerve bag. 

PPD professionals may do it differently, but that's not my area of expertise. 

DFrost


----------



## lone Ranger

Hey, don't flog the messenger.. A couple of them indicated they also raised their own with their own Bloodline. I am only reporting on what was sent to me and they were advising me on how to do this.. Several times I invited them to put their comments on the Forum, and they declined, hinting at some kind unspecified backlash to their advice...

*On the puppy socialization I would have put it all off to just other opinions, but their comments were very consistant on their advice on socialization with strangers.* I for one am taking this on board. This was only my clumsy my attempt to paraphrase them for others benefits, but I think I have done a fair job of it. 

They have convinced me, and it made sense.. For me, I think this Thread is "Job Done"...


----------



## Lucy Dog

What makes you think these people giving you this information are "professionals" - whether it's correct information or not?

I'd think true "professionals" with real PPD training experience would at least voice an opinion in a thread like this if they were going to go out of their way and pm or email you.


----------



## lone Ranger

Lucy Dog said:


> What makes you think these people giving you this information are "professionals" - whether it's correct information or not?
> 
> I'd think true "professionals" with real PPD training experience would at least voice an opinion in a thread like this if they were going to go out of their way and pm or email you.


Lucy Dog, honestly I do not know the why. They were real, and trying to help. Most of them gave me their Credentials, or experience, or a working Website, and such.. They had their reasons, and I got about 7-8 emails on the Bushtracker emaill and PMs. At least half I invited to post on this thread, and I think 3? wrote back and voiced a degree of reluctance for some reason. Look I am new here, not trying to stir things up.. One mentioned history of conflicts "banned" (I don't have a clue what that means) and one mentioned problems with "Mods" (again no idea). *Look I do not know what it even means nor do I want to answer anything more on this. One I asked permission to quote, and they gave permission but were firm on anonynimity sp?* 

I paraphrased all their advice together. It was only noteworthy as the context of their advice was very uniform, like consistent. 

Now this is all off track, I posted something I thought might be of value. Please no more questions on the sources as they must have had their reasons.


----------



## codmaster

OTOH, my wife and I once met a very well known "old German" judge who was alo very big in the US GSD community. He and his wife asked my wife (totally not a dog person except that she really liked GSD'S) to take their big male GSD for a walk around the show wemet them at. So she did by herself! And walked around with this beautiful male dog for almost 40 minutes and then she returned as plaesed as could be - said that the dog was "GREAT". THEN we find out that this dog had once scored the highest in Protection at theirannual Seiger show and had also been trained in PP.

*THAT was what a trained dog should be* - very social and trustworthy in public BUT - anyone doubt what would he hppened if anyone had messed with my wife while they were walking around? I don't!

That is assuming of course that the dog has to also be around in public!


----------



## codmaster

lone Ranger said:


> Lucy Dog, honestly I do not know the why. They were real, and trying to help. Most of them gave me their Credentials, or experience, or a working Website, and such.. They had their reasons, and I got about 7-8 emails on the Bushtracker emaill and PMs. At least half I invited to post on this thread, and I think 3? wrote back and voiced a degree of reluctance for some reason. Look I am new here, not trying to stir things up.. One mentioned history of conflicts "banned" (I don't have a clue what that means) and one mentioned problems with "Mods" (again no idea). *Look I do not know what it even means nor do I want to answer anything more on this. One I asked permission to quote, and they gave permission but were firm on anonynimity sp?*
> 
> I paraphrased all their advice together. It was only noteworthy as the context of their advice was very uniform, like consistent.
> 
> Now this is all off track, I posted something I thought might be of value. Please *no more questions on the sources* as they must have had their reasons.


*"An opinion with no author has no value"*

*Some famous person once said that but I don't recall who said it! But it does sound like it has some value.*


----------



## bianca

Loneranger would you mind private messaging me who you are getting your pup from if you wouldn't mind please? Just out of general curiosity, nothing sinister.

I have a solid black WL boy


----------



## TommyB681

With a personal protection dog you have to be strict when they are young and in training. Showing them affection is fine and healthy but when it comes to strangers and appropriate affection be cautious


----------



## lone Ranger

*TommyB681*, 
I agree.. From what help I have been able to gather, my summation of their advice is done in those items paraphrased 1-5 in that back Post... In my journey to get a dog along the path as far as possible to well socialized but also PPD as far as I can get, those paraphrased 1-5 items are going to be my guidelines. I did not do too bad a job with my current Alpha male Dakota (Cody). He would burr up (puff up and display aggression) on command, barking, and approach a stranger coming in the gate until called off half way. I did this now and then to test him, and apologized to the strangers, no risk as Cody was *FLAWLESS* on recall. In his nearly ten years, there has really not been any extreme aggression except on command, he would go everywhere with me in public. He was only extreme when chained up in a truck or trailer, and then with him at the end of his chain going off with the bad dog bark, no one has been game to challenge him further. He was well socialized, but knew when he was on duty (chained up or in a locked yard) and was great with people and kids in public. He would go off his head on command, but never put to the test. I either got lucky with him (most probable), or know a little bit of what I am doing. My 1-5 in the Post a page back in this Thread, stands for what I will do with this next pup...

*Bianca: *I will keep them confidential until I speak with them. They know me through Reining Horse Competitions and are Hobby people not Professional puppy breeders. They breed a couple litters per year, and train for fun with Professionals and a club. The Sire, a big black Euro style dog is not theirs. They do have a fabulous stud, a bit big at 70 cm at the shoulder and 50 kg a big Sable wolf, is temporarily sterile (hopefully) due to a reaction to a new monthly flea pill. Too big to mount a Bitch they were doing A.I. when it was discovered he had no swimmers...  Anyway, I trust them.. They have no puppies available. I was given pick of the two males in this litter, my pick, with their advice. One male would just not stand still to be held, and was all over the place. The other male was more controllable, bigger muzzle -head -and feet, and seemed to pay attention to who was handling him and he was my pick even though I was looking for a shorter coat. Hard to tell at my four week pick, he may be a "Glamour Coat" not long hair but not short hair either. The Breeder has said their experience with that medium coat was that it often shed less than the short coat. That was true with mine, Cody a short coat leaves hair EVERYWHERE, and Wakan Tonka my de-sexed female has a glamour coat and sheds very little except for about twice a year and it comes off in clumps.. 

Others: From all I have gathered in ten years with my own 67 cm at shoulder GSD, and with professionals and on this Forum: *The better Trained a Dog is towards personal protection, the more stable he is and less likely to throw random aggression unless commanded to, or to protect his handler... That has been my overall experience...*

Kind regards, lone Ranger...


----------



## x11

well that wraps it all up nicely, how many other threads here have ever been this successful, guy who likes to do scientific research and plan every detail was looking for a PPD and came to the conclusions that a show line dog that has a straight back euro style wolf bred by hobbyists who do reigning competitions and produce oversize glamour coated dogs and receives secret advice too secret to state publicly cos the mods here have "agendas" and paraphrased items 1 - 5 from a page back are the new guidelines.......

as long as we are all happy...


----------



## lone Ranger

*X11 EYES ONLY PLEASE, my apologies to others....*

x11... Yes I have been on a learning curve to revisit all of my assumptions from successfully raising two GSDs over ten years. I have spent about 60 hours or more in the past two weeks learning as much as I can from this Forum and dozens of other sources, before I get my new pup.

*I took the best dog I could find, despite your negative judgements, and will improve on my situation as opportunity allows.*

One thing I have learned x11, is you only know how to respond negatively always on the underbelly dark side of things, never trying to be constructive, almost always destructive, rude, and critical. I will never respond to you again. Of 50 Employees, 300 Suppliers, and in all the other activities I engage in with horses, the Outback, and 4x4 exploring activities, *I have learned that you are the type that always should be avoided amusing yourself by negative, derrogatory, divisive, undermining commentary.  I doubt you could be successful in any constructive endeavour* and probably just amuse yourself with your own negativity. 

Please do not respond any more. I will gladly sign off of this Forum completely if you are ever elevated to anything beside an armchair negative critic. My only regrets is you are not local where I could tell you off in person, as I struggle to be polite and civil here, ever since your first ignorant and rude response. I will overlook any and all postings from you in the future so don't bother trying to bait me up. Politeness and professionalism prevents me from really describing you in real terms.


----------



## mycobraracr

The fact of the matter is, it's an argument that happens on a weekly basis on this forum. To let people pet puppy or not? It really seems that most people have no idea what socialization really means. It just means to expose your dog to as many things as possible. It doesn't mean that everyone and thier mom needs to touch the dog. Do you shake hands or hug every person you come in contact with? Are you not socialized? People get so confused sometimes. Not to mention you get hundreds of people that have never done protection work a day in thier life or maybe had a dog "evaluated" for a protection sport and are all of a sudden professionals and giving advice on things they know nothing about. So I understand why the "pro's" wanted to email or PM the OP.


----------



## Jack's Dad

mycobraracr said:


> The fact of the matter is, it's an argument that happens on a weekly basis on this forum. To let people pet puppy or not? It really seems that most people have no idea what socialization really means. It just means to expose your dog to as many things as possible. It doesn't mean that everyone and thier mom needs to touch the dog. Do you shake hands or hug every person you come in contact with? Are you not socialized? People get so confused sometimes. Not to mention you get hundreds of people that have never done protection work a day in thier life or maybe had a dog "evaluated" for a protection sport and are all of a sudden professionals and giving advice on things they know nothing about. So I understand why the "pro's" wanted to email or PM the OP.


I'm not an expert or professional. Just have had a lot of dogs, more GSDs than any other breed and I agree very much with mycobraracr. 

Socialization is about exposure not allowing everybody and their brother to mess with your dog.

Mine are friendly but really don't care much about strangers at all.

I also don't understand why anyone cares who the OP's sources of info. were from. I agreed with most of what, (whoever they were) said.


----------



## lone Ranger

mycobraracr said:


> The fact of the matter is, it's an argument that happens on a weekly basis on this forum. To let people pet puppy or not? It really seems that most people have no idea what socialization really means. It just means to expose your dog to as many things as possible. It doesn't mean that everyone and thier mom needs to touch the dog. Do you shake hands or hug every person you come in contact with? Are you not socialized? People get so confused sometimes. Not to mention you get hundreds of people that have never done protection work a day in thier life or maybe had a dog "evaluated" for a protection sport and are all of a sudden professionals and giving advice on things they know nothing about. So I understand why the "pro's" wanted to email or PM the OP.


*MyCobraracr* Very wise and intelligent commentary there . Thank you for your input. I tried to summarize what their input was for others to benefit...

*Jack's Dad* They must have had their reasons and not for me to guess, but I actually got a very nice Thank You note for not revealing my Source... Not that I would since I think three ask me not to. Anyway, thank you, for your commentary on my five clumsy attempts at paraphrasing their advice and help... It seems to ring a chord of truth with me and how I will go. Maybe your analysis is why they did not want to get into the "fray" as there could be so many different definitions of socialization..

*Thank you both for your wise and positive feedback..*. OP


----------



## x11

*"...I have learned that you are the type that always should be avoided amusing yourself by negative, derrogatory, divisive, undermining commentary. I doubt you could be successful in any constructive endeavour* and probably just amuse yourself with your own negativity..."


----------



## Catu

lone Ranger said:


> *Wow, I have discovered something here... There is an undercurrent from Professionals that do not want to be in conflict with the Moderators or catch flack from the GSD pet owning Public for their views...(*no offence intended, I am just trying to describe a category of general GSD pet Owner)
> 
> The Professionals are not adding to this Thread much. Their view is a little different, and I have gotten it in about the same substance from about 8 sources now, by Messaging, and email through Bushtracker, from Police, Guard, Security, and PPD Professional sorts. They did not want to go Public, for reservations about flack for "political correctness" or conflicts with Moderators for showing a side they did not want the public to see?? (guessing on my part)... That is a little sad for this Forum, but when I encounter it I am going to paraphrase the results for others like myself to benefit from. Here are their points, I will not copy, *I am paraphrasing their results as their answers were amazingly consistant: *
> 
> 1) Go out of your way to have all children, be able to come up and love the puppy. This is an important function, the puppy should never perceive the Children as anything but fun and attention, and be very comfortable with them at all times. Children are NEVER a threat...
> 
> 2) Socialization is at various levels, and *no it is not in your best interests to have just any Adult come up and fawn all over the puppy*. Only allow ones that ask permission, or Friends and Family, and of course ALL Children. Asking permission is an important part. It introduces the dog to people that you think are alright.
> 
> 3) The GSD trait is to be a bit aloof anyway, do not expose the puppy to just anyone approaching and being overly friendly, it is not in your best interests for any kind of security or protection. *Strangers just coming up without permission can end up being a distraction to the dog, further can work against you, as most with Criminal Intent are well practiced at looking friendly and normal before they strike...*
> 
> 4) Only allow people that you are comfortable with approach the puppy, not just any random stranger, and again by permission... Anyone you have any misgivings about, or something not right with them, do not allow them to approach or handle the puppy.
> 
> 5) Finally on Liability, it seems that they agree that the more Training the dog has, the less likely there is to be any kind of random aggression without your command. They just will not take it on themselves to randomly lash out at someone, unless of course their Handler/Owner is attacked or commands them to respond. In other words, they all seem to say that the more training the dog has, the safer he is.
> 
> The exception is Military and Police extreme attack trained dogs, some do not think they can return to the public because of potential misuse or accidental use of their commands, and sadly they say if the Handler does not get them, they are often "put down"... ****...
> 
> Anyway, in summary: *If you want a dog that is a little more protection oriented, then the answer to this Thread from the Professionals is a little more reserved than what has been stated here.* Sadly the Professionals when invited to post their answers on the thread, declined and hinted or expressed reservations about putting their answers here due to backlash or some unspecified friction.. One final quote that really stood out, and I actually got their permission to quote them, (they said it was not their original, possibly from the Breeds Developer) Quote is something like this: "You cannot expect your German Shepherd to protect the Sheep from the Wolves, if he is friends with the Wolves"
> 
> I hope this has been a help, I thank all of you that answered this Thread. I think the guidelines above are realistic and I accept them as the way to go..
> 
> Personally I think this Forum is GREAT.. And it is helping me a lot. Only weeks til I get my 3rd and hopefully best GSD... Parents are big boned, low 2/3 to 0/0 hip and elbow x-ray scores, and kind of flat back and oversized to the show dogs maximums..
> 
> Kind regards, lone Ranger out on the "Last Frontier" with GSDs and Horses...


Not being a professional in PPD (though I worked at a facility that rented them when I started on my dog learning journey, so I do have some experience) I agree with very much you summarize. Without pretending my dogs to be PPD, I try to do the same. Even the SAR dog is now a problem because I allowed her to play with random strangers around the corner and now she can "reward herself" on a search bringing a stick to the nearest person. Not good.


----------



## lone Ranger

*Catu,*

Thankyou for the constructive response.. I am headed "towards" a PPD, not any kind of extreme, and like you I just want to do the right foundation to get as far as I can get with some Professional training as well. I have sound reasons, like if I am camped out in the Outback with $250,000 in rigs or more, if a 4x4 load of drunken louts show up looking for trouble or even a campfire to share, I want them to move on... somewhere else 

Also, I have a medical condition that does not allow the end extremes of exertion in a fight if I can avoid it. With "Caesar" with me, it should complete avoid the situation, even with a potential burgular in one of my Factories if I am called to attend a multiple alarms with no one else available. (gets kind of spooky, and I have entered with a 12 ga double..). 

From advice I could gather, those points seemed to strike a chord of truth, as it matched my own personal experience with the two I raised. This thread is to try and make sure it was not chance or luck, and get it right for the little black Caesar coming. Tonka my desexed bitch companion for Cody, is just worthless in this way. 

She was not raised with any PPD in mind, just a love bug pet with all strangers, and now only barks a dogs and strangers when she is locked up in the yard, but not a peep out in public in the back of my truck. Further She is useless with me out in Public or even chained up out away from her yard, friendly and looking for a pat from everyone. Cody on the other hand, was kept more aloof from strangers, and will approach for pat and scratch, but no one comes near him when chained in my truck or horsefloat. Also no one that is aggressive when on a leash if i put him on alert, and no one wants to climb over the fence in my yard.  Even my own Staff that know him say there is no way they are going over the fence to get anything when I am not there... 

I gathered and paraphrased what was sent to me by email and PPM from people that were, or still were in the K-9 or PPD related professions, that seemed to know from experience. This pup is the best dog I could find in Australia that was on the ground, and I believe their advice as they presented themselves in a credible manner. I will be getting another one in 18 months or less if this pup does not work out..

I have only shared it here to try and help others and put something back into the Forum, returning something of value. Thank you for you positive feedback Catu. Even with a trip this weekend to another Trainer to see his dogs as I might want a pup in the future, 7 hours drive, that advice stands on those 5 view points... Kind regards from Oz...


----------



## harmony

lone Ranger said:


> Two GSDs raised... 60 y.o. Man... I travel in remote areas of Australia, with $250-500K in equipment. He will be a near constant companion except in the city at times, and will travel with me in the Bush. Best Mate, but there is a Security Function he needs to fill. That will be his job. He will be mostly just deterent, but must bluff well enough to do a security function. We cannot travel interstate with guns in Australia, so he will be headed towards a PPD function. When I am not around, NO ONE approaches him..
> 
> *For a certain degree of Social Aggression*, should I allow him to be touched by strangers? You know, everyone want to pet and love up a puppy.. Or should it be a bond with just me handling him (definitely at first).
> 
> I am looking for your Security Minded Advice. I am thinking: If anything have strangers make him a little uncomfortable? He will be large for a GSD, Black, intimidating already. I am just thinking I do not want him to be looking to strangers for affection, but be more mistrustful, for the security function he will perform. Your thoughts?
> 
> Thank you from Australia


I could not go thru five pages to read this but something must be off here. I had someone want to take one of my dogs to hatti and it was ten grand(just to get it there), they did not have the money to take the dog and I donated for a good cause! There is bad places to go (and I was talking to a doctor), and I think you are full of bull hockey!!!!!!!


----------



## harmony

And I get a little smeard when someone says that :{, that is not how it goes. If you want a dog to die for you, are you ready to die for the same thing???


----------

