# just and fair corrections



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thought I would get this in here and correct this perception -- on the thread about the young dog mauling , I related a personal experience with a robust male dog (import stock) that did exactly this . There was always a battle on the leash but it improved . At one point , same point each time , the dog had it in his head that he had put up with this long enough and he would raise himself and give a full mouth pressure grip on my upper arm. 
He got himself one clean lightning fast correction which allowed us to walk home in a decent détente.

Next time out approximately the same place , he latches on. To prevent him from dropping his weight and pulling backwards in a prey pump , I grabbed his collar and kept him upright.

so to this "That was in reference to Carm saying LIGHTENING correction....she said "a lot won't like this"....but she would correct the dog...even string it up on it's tip toes to keep it walking...again...no one said boo."

the dog was not strung up which connotes the dog being hung suspended . NOT . would not do this .

I grabbed that collar and he walked along MY WAY , the only way it was going to be . Just picture a dog holding on to the sleeve running along with the decoy - that was pretty much it .

That was the solution , never did this again. We finished the 5 mile walk , no problem .

You know from the wealth of posts that I have written that I am all about genetic obedience. My dogs don't wear collars. I work with barely any words . I positively motivate which is not treating or luring or bribing.

There do come times when something is in an acute situation which if it is not remedied immediately will be a troublesome , non productive chronic , dysfunctional one .

Corrections have to be bespoke or customized to the nature of the animal . You have to have a feel for what it is going to take to get the result . One size does not fit all.

so how about discussing how and what a good correction is?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well, simply put I think a "good" correction gets the desired result, nothing more and nothing less. "More" being a dog that has a "bad" reaction like coming back up the leash at the handler, or shutting down/cowering, etc. "Less" being the correction doesn't compute.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Correct is warranted by age, offense and hardness of the dog. 

What you're talking about is correcting the dog by keeping it in an uncomfortable spot that the dog put itself in to begin with. It's about timing and reflexes and having a plan in place for what to do in that particular situation. Perfect, I'd have done the same if I had the upperbody to do so. 

The other thread turned sour when **comments removed by admin** attacking female trainers for their unwillingness to get physical with a dog. While I would never condone punching a dog in the head, I am a mostly positive trainer. Not afraid to push a dog out of my lap or off my bed if they don't do what they were told.

Women just aren't as big as men so it's annoying to read the women are going to blah blah high squeeky voice blah blah. Me trying to muscle 95lb Otto is like my preteen son trying to muscle my 70lb female GSD. Isn't going to happen. Yet both dogs will GSD hang on my daughters every command and she is so stereo typical of the high happy squeeky trainer voice. LOL she did basic OB with Venus when she was 8, that's what they taught her and it works for her. Both dogs adore her and see her as a leader, my second in command when it comes to dogs.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

This blog post sums up my thoughts on and use of corrections perfectly. The Dogs Are Really In Charge: Using corrections, positively: Clicker Training Journal


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

SunCzarina said:


> Correct is warranted by age, offense and hardness of the dog.
> 
> What you're talking about is correcting the dog by keeping it in an uncomfortable spot that the dog put itself in to begin with. It's about timing and reflexes and having a plan in place for what to do in that particular situation. Perfect, I'd have done the same if I had the upperbody to do so.
> 
> ...


Please don't generalize and make it sound like all the male posters were bashing the little girls ............. rest removed by admin


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the word ortho means straight or correct , and I believe right from the very beginning the that this is the route to go. You don't ride something out , let the dog shark on you , or use you as a chew toy . That gets solved asap .

next time I have a litter intended for service I'll get some youtubeys, just like the Nicholas genetic obedience thread . I'll even invite misslesleedavis (if that is your real name , wink) and she can hang out . 

A lot of nonsense gets to be prolonged without need.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I didn't say it was everyone or you, I said that why the thread went sour and it is not childish to explain that something done by one group of individuals is highly offensive to another group.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

My impression was that 1 person made that statement (which I commented on) and the discussion continued to be productive. There were a few ridiculous comments and suggestions and then a comment about the ladies on the forum. He generalized, he shouldn't have. 

You shouldn't have either. I'm a guy. Read my posts on the thread.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Freddy and YOUR post is just why many get shut down/go off track..

Rather inappropriate remark and really uncalled for..


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Jakoda, my intention is not to derail threads or offend anyone. Are you referring to my post 5 or 8 in this thread, or something I said in the other one?

Please explain.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

my female is a stubborn b sometimes, and sometimes she gets very stern corrections from me. She's very vocal and sometimes will yelp when she *thinks* a correction is coming even when I don't correct in any way. In my mind, this is because she did something she *knew* was wrong and *knew* deserved a correction... in other words, "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time."... but she decided the crime was worth it for her. However, others who've observed us work have remarked how there is zero conflict between the dog and me. SO, I interpret that as my corrections are generally fair and deserved with this dog.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

carmspack said:


> the word ortho means straight or correct , and I believe right from the very beginning the that this is the route to go. You don't ride something out , let the dog shark on you , or use you as a chew toy . That gets solved asap .
> 
> next time I have a litter intended for service I'll get some youtubeys, just like the Nicholas genetic obedience thread . I'll even invite misslesleedavis (if that is your real name , wink) and she can hang out .
> 
> A lot of nonsense gets to be prolonged without need.


Oh PLEASE! you know no one in there right mind will make up a name like leslee. jeeze.lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Freddy, I think since you used asterisks in your word, you knew the word might be kicked out by the sensors, so, probably your best bet is to stop pretending you don't know why you might have offended. This is supposed to be a family friendly site, if you wouldn't say it in front of your six year old grand daughter, don't say it here, that's easy.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I am not afraid to take on my 85lb GSD. He knows I mean business.  I too prefer to teach what I want but there are times when correction is definitely warranted. It does depend on the infraction, the place and the dog. The correction must be clear to the dog however, otherwise you're not achieving anything at all except to teach your dog you act randomly.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thanks , I was looking for the phrase , zero conflict .


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Selzer, I was quoting the post above mine, and objecting to how it was used! 

DID ANYONE READ SUNSZARINA'S POST?????

I'm not the bad guy here, I was the one that raised the objection to the use of the offensive term. 

Hello?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I agree with the others, when the correction is given whether it is verbal or physical and the behaviour ceases you made your point. If it continues or the dog wilts or becomes aggressive there's an issue.

Also, the level of correction has to be justified by the offense. I think that’s the biggest thing to remember as a trainer and a good example was in a recent thread where the trainer was encouraging the owners to correct the dog using a choke collar if I remember correctly while giving the command regardless of whether the dog was obeying or not! The dog shut down and no wonder! 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2-training-method-concerns-3.html#post5200394


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Freddy said:


> DID ANYONE READ SUNSZARINA'S POST?????
> 
> I'm not the bad guy here, I was the one that raised the objection to the use of the offensive term.
> 
> Hello?


Yes, I read it. And then I went back and looked for the other thread because I missed it the first time around (I hardly ever read the Aggression subforum, it just makes my head hurt) and figured it'd be good for some mid-afternoon lols while I had my coffee. It did not disappoint in the drama department, that's for sure.

Fwiw, I do agree with SunCzarina's original point that there's frequently an unpleasant amount of sexism on this board, which is exhausting and annoying and something I would prefer people to have evolved past in 2014. I tend to just ignore it because I don't have the energy to go all Tumblr Social Justice Warrior all the time constantly, but that doesn't mean I don't see it.

But that's way off topic for this thread.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Agreed, and there are usually a few frequent bad actors. Most of the time I navigate around it, this time I made a comment because I was the original one that criticized the punch in the head comment. 

On this thread I merely reacted to an inappropriate comment, and I'm rewarded by criticism from a mod, and a snarky comment by Selzer.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think if you are going to use a verbal or physical correction, you have to measure it properly, so that it isn't so weak that it is a question or a nag, and it isn't so strong that it is abusive, or in the case of verbal, which can also be abusive to some dogs, doesn't make the dog shut down or hide. 

It does depend on the circumstances and the temperament moreso than the age of the offender.

I agree with Carmen, that you don't dwell on it, you get positive afterwards and keep going. 

If a dog is hard, they should be able to recover from a solid physical correction and learn from it. This does not mean the dog NEEDS strong physical corrections, but the dog will not be totally ruined by such corrections. 

If a dog is soft, the dog will not recover from a strong physical correction quickly. It will likely carry that correction, moreso than why it happened, and it will effect the dog's trust in the person who did it. This is the main problem with soft dogs. They can have serious issues with physical, and sometimes even verbal corrections, and they will employ fear-behaviors that can include avoidance, shutting down, and even aggression. If this dog is punished for accidents in house training, it can make house training a nightmare. If the dog is punished strongly around other children or dogs, it can have problems in those areas.

A dog that is neither hard nor soft should be able to handle/recover from corrections. But, I think that if you you strong corrections for ordinary misdemeanors, you are likely to help your dog develop a tolerance for correction and an immunity to correction in some respects. You might have to up the ante to get the desired results, and cause a dog to actually challenge you where it may have been totally unnecessary.

The dog listens to me, but not my husband -- yeah, the dog knows that you mean what you say. You can do this with or without physically correcting the dog, by just not allowing the dog to follow through with rewarding behaviors for something you don't want the dog to do. 

I think that in most cases we can outwit dogs, and especially puppies without physically striking them or using a correction collar to deliver a correction. 

There are behaviors that have to be dealt with immediately and with little confusion as to whether or not that was acceptable. With some dogs, a strong EH! followed by not allowing the dog to be rewarded in any way, including attention, until the dog stops and sits and pays attention to what the handler wants is enough. With other dogs, and depending on the dog, it might not be.

Not very helpful when people tend to think the pup in front of them is hard, defiant, stubborn, and definitely one of the ones that will need the strongest of corrections. Perhaps that is just the human condition, where we believe our situation is always one of the worst. I don't know.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

selzer said:


> Freddy, I think since you used asterisks in your word, you knew the word might be kicked out by the sensors


No that was me. I do what I want to make a point.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sorry Freddy, I missed that in the post you quoted. My bad.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

No problem, Selzer. Thanks.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Back to topic. I agree with Selzer, I think she is saying there is no "one size fits all" level of correction. So many variables.

My male had a serious screw loose when he was younger, and still just a little (which I like). During table training he would get so amped up that when his thick leather lead bounced within range he bit and chewed through it. This happened several times. 

My female is soft enough that my tone of voice is a correction. 

If I corrected these two dogs the same way, my male would be out of control and dangerous and my female would never come to me again.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well have blown past some of the bickering and think this is a good topic.

I think a fair correction is one that is timed properly, not infused with emotion, understood by the dog, and does not harm the dog or shut them down or push them to aggression.

I have had a real learning curve with this, having been told I was not being fair to my own dog. And I am not a yank and crank kind of person but am just dealing with one a little pushier than others I have had. You know our breed is terribly forgiving (I guess most dogs are) of bad handling. And it is important when we feel we HAVE to correct a behavior to make sure it is done in such a way the dog understands why it was given. And it must be given for the benefit of the dog.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

"I think a fair correction is one that is timed properly, not infused with emotion, understood by the dog, and does not harm the dog or shut them down or push them to aggression."

To me, that says it all. I was told by a well known trainer near Bowling Green, KY that I "nag" my dog when he was younger. I overcompensated and quickly realized that was going nowhere as well. Fortunately I don't have a seriously handler aggressive, or soft dog and we were able to work through it.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

I agree with a good correction being swift, well-timed, just and fair. Punishment should be equal to the crime and the force used should always be just enough to stop the behavior, never enough to really hurt the dog. Also that punishment should always end after the dog gets it. Absolutely never using a dog as a release for anger/frustration/sick enjoyment. I'm a small gal but I'm not opposed to or afraid of getting physical/rough with corrections. I would be ruthless if it was warranted.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Note: If you have to use *** or ^%%$# to bypass the censors find another way to express yourself. We are all getting very tired of editing posts because people are incapable of making a point without the censored words. Thank you, ADMIN Lisa


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

carmspack said:


> Corrections have to be bespoke or customized to the nature of the animal . You have to have a feel for what it is going to take to get the result . One size does not fit all.
> 
> so how about discussing how and what a good correction is?


I tend to think less is more. If I can get the desired result with just a slight change in my body position, or eye contact, then I'll consider that a correction that worked. If that type of correction doesn't work, then I'll amp up my correction. 

However, I am in the mindset that I have to make sure that I've made my command perfectly clear to the dog. I don't want to correct the dog because I haven't been clear.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

SunCzarina said:


> Women just aren't as big as men so it's annoying to read the women are going to blah blah high squeeky voice blah blah. Me trying to muscle 95lb Otto is like my preteen son trying to muscle my 70lb female GSD. Isn't going to happen.


The first professional trainer I worked with many many years ago, was a very small man. If I had to guess I would say 5'6" maybe 100 lbs. Training and corrections are not about strength, all about technique. He was very successful with his training and would take on the worst of the worst, many being large very powerful aggressive dogs. 

I won't ever buy into us gals lacking strength to train our dogs....that's a cop out.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I agree sometimes you can come across a very dominant head strong usually male GSD that will test all your abilities and patience, I've never experienced this but know someone that has, mainly in the show ring as opposed to just walking for exercise, the best solution for her was to admit she was not capable of handling him and found another handler (a man). This dog worked brilliantly for the new male handler.

My concern with comments Lonefisher made is that he was referring to a strange dog, he had no idea of the dogs temperament, background, training etc and Lonefishers only reaction is to punch the sweetness out of dog. 

My other concern is that this is a world wide website, often when I google something about GSDs, this website always pops up. Unfortunately there are some people that own a GSD because they think it is a tough police type dog and it makes them feel bigger handling such a dog, these people may think they have to get violent with their GSD because they read it here and they can and it makes them feel like a big man. 

If Lonefisher and boomer to some extent find they constantly have to give their dogs 'hard corrections' or punch them, then they need to look at themselves first, do more training with their dogs and build a closer bond with their dogs. Having a close rapport with your dog means you won't have to get violent with him.

I am a great believer in a person's 'aura', dogs are very much in tune with our auras and if a dog shows a dislike for a person, I tend to watch very closely as dogs are never wrong about people.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saphire said:


> The first professional trainer I worked with many many years ago, was a very small man. If I had to guess I would say 5'6" maybe 100 lbs. Training and corrections are not about strength, all about technique. He was very successful with his training and would take on the worst of the worst, many being large very powerful aggressive dogs.
> 
> I won't ever buy into us gals lacking strength to train our dogs....that's a cop out.
> 
> ...


Males and females are different. 

I think on the whole women tend to be turned off at the idea that they need to physically show a dog who is in charge, but would rather build a relationship with a dog, and train/teach the dog how to behave without force when possible. 

That is not to say that all men are spewing dominance theory and alpha rolling their dogs. But I think that we are different in general. 

I agree that women can definitely be in full control of a dog. But I prefer to win the battle in the mind of the dog rather than in its body.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*No One Said Constantly*



Harry and Lola said:


> If Lonefisher and boomer to some extent find they constantly have to give their dogs 'hard corrections' or punch them, then they need to look at themselves first, do more training with their dogs and build a closer bond with their dogs.


To my recollection, no one, and certainly not I, used the term constantly. That's a product of your over-reactive imagination.

My comment was about a particular situation where a poster said the dog was biting her so hard her bones crushed. I also related punching a dog where he was attacking me.

OR DID YOU MISS THAT PART?

The corrections I now use with my Zeus would be hardly noticeable by the average bystander and immediately after he complies (which IS IMMEDIATELY CUZ HE KNOWS THE NEXT CORRECTION WON'T BE ALL THAT FORGIVING) he gets a "good boy". I think I give a hard correction twice a week now and that dog and I are on the street exercising at least 2 - 3 hours a day.

Finally, that darned dog is completely devoted to me.

***COMMENT REMOVED BY MOD***

LF


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't mind taking the word 'constantly' out of my comment.

If Lonefisher and boomer to some extent find they have to give their dogs 'hard corrections' or punch them, then they need to look at themselves first, do more training with their dogs and build a closer bond with their dogs.

I don't know what ***REMOVED BY MOD*** means? I assume it is some form of verbal abuse?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

selzer said:


> Males and females are different.
> 
> I think on the whole women tend to be turned off at the idea that they need to physically show a dog who is in charge, but would rather build a relationship with a dog, and train/teach the dog how to behave without force when possible.
> 
> ...


"Technique" is not specific to physical corrections. Training involves bond and connection which to me is just one more technique. 

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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Longfisher said:


> To my recollection, no one, and certainly not I, used the term constantly. That's a product of your over-reactive imagination.
> 
> My comment was about a particular situation where a poster said the dog was biting her so hard her bones crushed. I also related punching a dog where he was attacking me.
> 
> ...



If you have to keep issuing corrections for the same behavior, you're clearly not doing it right.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

selzer said:


> I agree that women can definitely be in full control of a dog. But I prefer to win the battle in the mind of the dog rather than in its body.


I agree. I don't buy the male / female difference. If that were true then women wouldn't be training horses..and lions..and tigers...and bears..Oh My!


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> I don't know what F.O.S means? I assume it is some form of verbal abuse?


First two words are "full of," I assume you can fill in the rest.

In short: yep, you guessed correctly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I notified on this, so no reason to comment. Maybe if we all do not respond to this on here, they won't shut down this thread.



Longfisher said:


> To my recollection, no one, and certainly not I, used the term constantly. That's a product of your over-reactive imagination.
> 
> My comment was about a particular situation where a poster said the dog was biting her so hard her bones crushed. I also related punching a dog where he was attacking me.
> 
> ...


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Can someone post a video of a hard correction vs a soft correction?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I think a fair correction is one that is timed properly, not infused with emotion, understood by the dog, and does not harm the dog or shut them down or push them to aggression.


Timing really is everything in this case. Some of the best corrections I've given I haven't even thought about..... Just reacted and those are the ones that have stuck with the dogs. If I over think, or hesitate then its all over. Dog doesn't understand why he is being corrected.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saphire said:


> "Technique" is not specific to physical corrections. Training involves bond and connection which to me is just one more technique.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I do not understand what you are saying, could you give me a few more sentences?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> Timing really is everything in this case. Some of the best corrections I've given I haven't even thought about..... Just reacted and those are the ones that have stuck with the dogs. If I over think, or hesitate then its all over. Dog doesn't understand why he is being corrected.


LOL, Once upon a time, I had a young male about 2 years old, who liked to jump on me. I needed to have a surgery on my wrist so I really needed to stop this behavior because he used to jump at leas once, and usually on my arm. 

It was if anything a affectionate thing with him. It wasn't aggressive. But I was working on it, and I really got it down. I thought. Four on the floor. And remind him not to jump. Good boy. We went about 2 weeks without any jumps. Yay! 

Then I had the surgery. That night when I went to feed everyone, the boy ran up and jumped right on my surgery. 

I did not think. I don't know how I did it. But I picked his eighty pounds up and flung him up against the fence yelling DON'T JUMP! 

It worked. I don't know that that dog ever jumped on me again. Two of my fingers in that hand are still numb and it has been years. It was like a lightbulb went off in his brian -- "oh yeah, you didn't want me to do that, uh, ok."

Now if I had to think that out, I could have never pulled it off. If someone saw it, it would be like me watching the Positive Only trainer body slamming her Great Dane puppy to get him down.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Harry and Lola said:


> I don't mind taking the word 'constantly' out of my comment.
> 
> If Lonefisher and boomer to some extent find they have to give their dogs 'hard corrections' or punch them, then they need to look at themselves first, do more training with their dogs and build a closer bond with their dogs.


I missed what this was in reply to, but I'm a girl and I find that there are some dogs a loud voice or a growl and they will be crushed, but there are other dogs you do have to physically be tougher with. Buddy is big old and grumpy and has earned senior status and I let him get away with a lot but he will push me around if I let him. More than once I've had to physically grab his scruff and remind him he doesn't just get to push past me to go outside. He must sit and behave just like the other dogs. Physical to me doesn't mean I would ever hurt him in any way. If I scruffed Ivan and pulled him down into a sit OMG he wouldn't come near me for a week, so it really depends on the dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

FROM Board Rules

5. Do not use defamatory statements or statements that attack the character of another;

6. Do not make abusive, hateful, harassing, or threatening statements;

16. Since this is an open forum and we have members of all ages the using of acronyms, replacing letters with other letters or symbols to avoid being censored will be considered as breaking the rules. We can not and will not put every possible acronym or modified word on the censored list. The use acronyms, replacing letters with other letters or symbols as a work around the censor rules we will consider it a violation of the rules and you will be treat accordingly.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> LOL, Once upon a time, I had a young male about 2 years old, who liked to jump on me. I needed to have a surgery on my wrist so I really needed to stop this behavior because he used to jump at leas once, and usually on my arm.
> 
> It was if anything a affectionate thing with him. It wasn't aggressive. But I was working on it, and I really got it down. I thought. Four on the floor. And remind him not to jump. Good boy. We went about 2 weeks without any jumps. Yay!
> 
> ...


Haha yes, that type of situation is exactly what I'm talking about.  Somehow they never forget that lesson.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hey David, just curious but when did you become a mod? Congrats and condolences....


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Back in February... and thanks, I think


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:laugh:


........on topic that's the 'dark side' of negative reinforcement, one that causes me the most worry, am I being fair. 


It's the reason I stay away from e collars, not because I think they are bad tools but I'm so worried about being ham handed with the thing. I just hate being unfair to my dogs so try to stay positive as much as possible and will always want a dog that has a strong desire to please, biddable to lessen the need for negative reinforcement.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

So, I just don't understand.... It's okay to pick up a dog and throw it against a fence if it jumps (non aggressively onto your injured wrist) but it's not okay to hit/punch/whatever, a dog latched onto your bicep, breaking skin, and not releasing... At all. Not saying what you did is wrong at all, just trying to understand how that is okay... But everyone is up in arms over the word "punch." 

I understand it's 6 months old, my dog is six months old. He's 62 pounds, has a full set of adult teeth and a deep strong grip. If he latched into my bicep it would hurt... A lot. I'm assuming in reaction to the pain, in the heat of the moment, I would hit/kick, to stop the damage/injury to my upper arm. I guess I don't understand what an "appropriate" reaction would be.... Especially when picking up and throwing a dog against a fence is OK.... In the heat of being attacked/injured, I'm going to instantaneously try and reach the end goal of the dog releasing my body part. 

For the record, my advice on corrections in general is of course fair and appropriate levels WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF A TRAINER.... I don't think anyone's advice is to correct to the point of shutting a dog down or damaging the the dog. I've never had to give my dog a hard correction, unless you count me stepping on the lead and my dogs momentum correcting himself from jumping on my son. That goes back to carm's point of genetic obedience. This current pup wants to please me, we have a great relationship, he is always tuned into me, and I do my best to teach him my expectations clearly. 

Carm, sorry I misinterpreted the "picking the dog up"..... I was agreeing with the" lightening speed correction" and most importantly, jumping right back into positive and moving on quickly. I thought it was a given that we shouldn't do anything beyond what a dog can handle. I said it a few times. My "advice" is more of "this is what I think I'd do in the heat of the moment.... Or.... This is what I've done that worked with my dogs." With my ultimate advice with aggression and biting always being seek an experienced trainer.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> :laugh:
> 
> 
> It's the reason I stay away from e collars, not because I think they are bad tools but I'm so worried about being ham handed with the thing. I just hate being unfair to my dogs so try to stay positive as much as possible and will always want a dog that has a strong desire to please, biddable to lessen the need for negative reinforcement.


My daughter's Beagle (that is living with me at the moment) is the only dog that I've ever had the evil thought of using an e-collar. He is so VOCAL. However, he has never been taught not to be. So when I get home...Vocal...when I go to the barn...Vocal...when I'm feeding...Vocal...when I get up in the morning...Vocal. 

Oh yea...I'd love to zap that little sucker. But in reality, he's over 10 years old. He's never been taught not to be vocal. So it's a very hard road I'm traveling on with him. But, I'm determined.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is not just nor fair 

"
My male had a serious screw loose when he was younger, and still just a little (which I like). During table training he would get so amped up that when his thick leather lead bounced within range he bit and chewed through it. This happened several times. "

You can not create a frenzied frustrated state , and correct the dog for damaging your leather leads to get to the decoy.

that is your fault.

a soft correction and a hard correction can both be wrong if you don't get the desired effect.

a good timed correction the dog doesn't even know it came from you , the handler . the dog thought he produced it , he was responsible by his actions.

when I do take my dogs out they are with fine slip collars and fine lead . I don't want them to feel it . Then the equipment is used like a bit in a horses mouth . The slightest movement of wrist , imperceptible to anyone looking will give a message --- guidance , yes ! on NO.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"That goes back to carm's point of genetic obedience. This current pup wants to please me, we have a great relationship, he is always tuned into me, and I do my best to teach him my expectations clearly"

that dog was jaw dropping stunning good looking bi colour. 
He was fearless , social / neutral , never a concern. He was worked by some good decoys who all liked him , several offers to purchase .

He was never bred . ??? why ? because he was difficult to work . Like driving a manual truck , all power . I had to exhaust myself making an impression on him to "yes" do it . He was Czech --- which I bet the "mauling" dog is .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> So, I just don't understand.... It's okay to pick up a dog and throw it against a fence if it jumps (non aggressively onto your injured wrist) but it's not okay to hit/punch/whatever, a dog latched onto your bicep, breaking skin, and not releasing... At all. Not saying what you did is wrong at all, just trying to understand how that is okay... But everyone is up in arms over the word "punch."
> 
> I understand it's 6 months old, my dog is six months old. He's 62 pounds, has a full set of adult teeth and a deep strong grip. If he latched into my bicep it would hurt... A lot. I'm assuming in reaction to the pain, in the heat of the moment, I would hit/kick, to stop the damage/injury to my upper arm. I guess I don't understand what an "appropriate" reaction would be.... Especially when picking up and throwing a dog against a fence is OK.... In the heat of being attacked/injured, I'm going to instantaneously try and reach the end goal of the dog releasing my body part.
> 
> ...


Nope, it was not right at all. Sorry. It was a reaction in the heat of the moment. It was not thought out. It was not planned. It just happened. 

I did not hurt the dog. But, I did something that completely gave him a Oh - Yeah moment. I generally do not set dogs up so I can proof them/correct them. I don't like that. Lots of people do it. But the important stuff has enough natural set-ups, that I suppose I do not have to proof a behavior, by unnaturally setting the dog up. 

The dog was a full-grown adult dog. He wasn't a six month old puppy. There is a big difference, really. That dog I knew since he was 7 weeks old. I was training him, teaching him not to jump on me. And that was working. Only that day he decided to do it anyway. I probably didn't do something or did do something different than the training days, on the day of my surgery. Doesn't matter. What happened, was lightning-quick, and very clear, on something we were already working on, making progress on. 

He was NOT doing it out of fear or aggression or dominance etc. It was a bad habit. And the dog was maybe not hard, but was certainly not soft. You could hit him over the head with a 2x4 and he would say, "Ok, let's try that again!" Not that I ever did that. But he never held onto negative actions. If I stepped on his foot, he wasn't skittish about my feet. After training him for two years, I knew him inside out, which I don't think happens with 6 month old puppies, because they haven't reached their adult temperament, not even close yet. 

I would never suggest anyone do what I did with that boy. If you have time to remember it and to work out how to do it, it wasn't quick enough. It is not one of my prouder moments in dog training that is for sure. 

But I don't think it was anything terrible either.

It is not like telling someone to punch their dog. A punch is aggressive, what I did was really not so much aggressive. It was more like when you help a dog to sit, after telling them. Ok, a little more aggressive than that. But it wasn't like given the dog an uppercut or kicking a dog. It was a little more than a body block, but not like hitting the dog in the head so it goes reeling.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> He was NOT doing it out of fear or aggression or dominance etc. It was a bad habit.


I'm confused. So your reaction / correction was warranted because the dog was jumping out of play, but would not be warranted if it was out of aggression / fear / dominance. So if a dog is playing with you too rough, it's OK to slam it into a fence, but not if it's trying to fight you for real.

Could you clarify this? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> If Lonefisher and boomer to some extent find they have to give their dogs 'hard corrections' or punch them, then they need to look at themselves first, do more training with their dogs and build a closer bond with their dogs.


Lol OMG I just got grouped with LF. I'm kinda devastated.... 

Anyways when I give a hard correction I have to look at myself in the mirror but everyone else on here is talking about hard corrections. What about them? This entire thread is about giving a correction hard enough to get the dog to stop what it's doing. The hypocrisy... 

I've never punched my dog. I don't constantly correct my dog or did I tell anyone likewise. Please find where I said any of this? If you can't then your reading comprehension skills need work. 

Anyways I've corrected my dog hard twice. Once was when he tried to lunge at a little dog barking behind a fence. The other was when he was taking stuff off the coffee table that was head height to him. To me a "hard" correction is one that stops the dog immediately from whatever he was doing and the dog goes "Whoa that really hurt!" most often hard enough that the dog yelps. 

If a situation arises and I don't have a prong to correct and the dog deserves it, I would without hesitation "punch" him or pick him up and slam him into the ground etc. Of course the circumstances would have to be extreme to warrant such a correction but if I needed to, I wouldn't hesitate for even a split second. 

I also will say I've never dealt with a soft dog and would never want to. Imo a soft dog should never ever be bred. Dogs like that should just be put out of the gsd gene pool. That's the type of dog that would probably faint if a robber broke in.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> Nope, it was not right at all. Sorry. It was a reaction in the heat of the moment. It was not thought out. It was not planned. It just happened.
> 
> I did not hurt the dog. But, I did something that completely gave him a Oh - Yeah moment. I generally do not set dogs up so I can proof them/correct them. I don't like that. Lots of people do it. But the important stuff has enough natural set-ups, that I suppose I do not have to proof a behavior, by unnaturally setting the dog up.
> 
> ...


But you still didn't answer my question. You're walking along, and this six month old (out of nowhere or at the very least, unexpectedly, latches onto your bicep... Breaking skin... And NOT releasing... I am saying, int eh heat of the moment, the first time if that happened to me, I would give a fast hard correction, I don't know if it'd be hitting, kicking, smacking.... But it would be stern (there would be emotion, especially if the dog isn't letting go and is breaking skin). I just don't understand how now everyone is saying, "yes appropriate level of corrections would be correct." So, what's appropriate in that situation... A dog (or puppy) with a full set of adult canines, 60ish pounds, latching onto your upper arm, and not releasing. What. Do. You. Do. 

Yes, ideally this would never have happened. But she didn't set the dog up, she didn't see any signs, they were on a walk.... Walking along... And the dog does this.... And saying "impossible... There must have been signs... Etc" is a cop out to the question. I think everyone describing the corrections they'd give were talking about what they'd do, in the heat of the moment, the first time. Everyone, at the time, said it was wrong to react that way. Okay... So what should she have done to get the dog off her arm? What should she do the next time? It's not like it's something she sets up like a fear of bikes, cars, dogs, etc.... It's just on a walk, and "out of nowhere." 

Now I think all that can be said when offering advice on corrections is to find a trainer because we don't know much about the pups temperament, why he's doing this, etc...You can't learn how to train via the Internet. You really need to have someone help you in person. 

But in the heat of the moment with the dog mauling thread.... I think I'd react similarly to you with your dog against the fence Selzer... Which I don't think is that terrible... Considering the dog is biting my flesh, with adult canines.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I know Sue doesn't need me to speak for her. I can totally understand what happened. She just had surgery. She was probably on pain meds. plus the tenderness of the surgical site. Of course she reacted when the dog jumped on her arm. I don't think there was any thought, just reaction. That's what happens when people are in pain. At least that is probably the reaction I would have.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

SunCzarina said:


> Correct is warranted by age, offense and hardness of the dog.
> 
> What you're talking about is correcting the dog by keeping it in an uncomfortable spot that the dog put itself in to begin with. It's about timing and reflexes and having a plan in place for what to do in that particular situation. Perfect, I'd have done the same if I had the upperbody to do so.
> 
> ...


None of your posts have been towards me but with every post you make it gets harder and harder to take you seriously. Most of them are you taking personal shots at people or throwing a temper tantrum. If you have to call names and use cuss words to make a point then you clearly didn't have much of a point to begin with.

Since this thread is about corrections I'll have to say you know nothing about the appropriate correction to give your dog or even how to train your dog because even after 6 YEARS, YOUR DOG IS STILL WALKING YOU. You seriously think pushing your dog off the bed is a correction?


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I like this statement:

Corrections have to be bespoke or customized to the nature of the animal . You have to have a feel for what it is going to take to get the result . One size does not fit all.

Our previous dog only needed verbal corrections and seldom at that. She was a rescue and in 3 homes prior to ours and only wanted to please, she showed major remorse if she thought she did something wrong.

Our current GSD is high spirited and very independent. Initially she was corrected using a prong collar in our training classes. There got to be a point where I felt the trainers wanted to "break" her, over correct her to conform to their methods. We loved her personality and spirit. I took some advice from here and books I read and "redirected" our dog when the situation called for it. Now that she's almost 4 yrs old, I really don't recall any recent corrections, if she is being stubborn we will encourage her in a fun way, and the use of the "down" command is helpful, but I don't think of it as a correction.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> I also will say I've never dealt with a soft dog and would never want to. Imo a soft dog should never ever be bred. Dogs like that should just be put out of the gsd gene pool. That's the type of dog that would probably faint if a robber broke in.


A dog that is attuned and sensitive to its handler is a completely different thing from a dog that lacks courage.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

carmspack said:


> He was never bred . ??? why ? because he was difficult to work . Like driving a manual truck , all power . I had to exhaust myself making an impression on him to "yes" do it . He was Czech --- which I bet the "mauling" dog is .


My Buddy is Czech. Stubborn and like a Bulldozer.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I have heard the term 'handler sensitive' used before when describing a dog. What exactly does that mean? Good, bad or depends? I have alway been curious.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"My daughter's Beagle (that is living with me at the moment) is the only dog that I've ever had the evil thought of using an e-collar. He is so VOCAL" 

You can't change a breed characteristic -- that's Beagles for you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Im not going to weigh in on this because a few of you have already said what id have said and nothing id say would convince anyone else any differently from what they've already settled into believing.

What I will say is I hate hate hate the word correction because it is such a vague euphemism. What are you actually doing? Is it -R is it -P with a no reward marker is it +P? All i see is the c word over and over and its confusing. At least boomer has the stones to go right out and say he will punch a dog if its called for.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Merciel said:


> A dog that is attuned and sensitive to its handler is a completely different thing from a dog that lacks courage.


I think our definition of soft might be different. To me a soft dog is one that will shut down over an unfair or overly harsh correction. A hard dog can brush it off and recover quickly. 

If you never have to correct the dog and raising your voice is enough to stop him in his tracks then no thanks. Sensitive to the handler to me just means a dog that listens well.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> So, I just don't understand.... It's okay to pick up a dog and throw it against a fence if it jumps (non aggressively onto your injured wrist) but it's not okay to hit/punch/whatever, a dog latched onto your bicep, breaking skin, and not releasing... At all. Not saying what you did is wrong at all, just trying to understand how that is okay... But everyone is up in arms over the word "punch."


I may be getting this out of context, I missed the other thread you all are talking about... but if a dog latched onto my bicep and was not releasing not only would it get punched it would more than likely get PTS. That is not OK.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Courtney said:


> I have heard the term 'handler sensitive' used before when describing a dog. What exactly does that mean? Good, bad or depends? I have alway been curious.


As with many terms in dog training, different people will define it differently, but to me, a "handler sensitive" dog is one that is, as the term suggests, sensitive to its handler's moods, verbal cues, body posture, etc.

For example, at the extreme end of the spectrum, there are some Shelties and BCs I know who will wilt if their handlers address them in sharp tones, move into them too quickly (on a left turn, for instance), or are visibly disappointed with their performances in any way. It can be difficult to keep a dog working and motivated if the dog is too worried about getting things wrong, and this is one of the reasons that some people, even people who would classify themselves as positive trainers, prefer not to work with _extremely_ handler sensitive dogs. You really do have to be careful not to crush their enthusiasm sometimes.

However, to me, a more moderate (but still strong) level of handler sensitivity is a huge HUGE plus. I would never want to train a dog who is not interested in working with me or responsive to my cues. The whole point of doing dog sports, for me, is to have that connection -- it's why I gravitate so strongly to herding breeds and don't run bull terriers.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Oh come on Bailif, I want to hear what you think.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Merciel said:


> As with many terms in dog training, different people will define it differently, but to me, a "handler sensitive" dog is one that is, as the term suggests, sensitive to its handler's moods, verbal cues, body posture, etc.
> 
> For example, at the extreme end of the spectrum, there are some Shelties and BCs I know who will wilt if their handlers address them in sharp tones, move into them too quickly (on a left turn, for instance), or are visibly disappointed with their performances in any way. It can be difficult to keep a dog working and motivated if the dog is too worried about getting things wrong, and this is one of the reasons that some people, even people who would classify themselves as positive trainers, prefer not to work with _extremely_ handler sensitive dogs. You really do have to be careful not to crush their enthusiasm sometimes.
> 
> However, to me, a more moderate (but still strong) level of handler sensitivity is a huge HUGE plus. I would never want to train a dog who is not interested in working with me or responsive to my cues. The whole point of doing dog sports, for me, is to have that connection -- it's why I gravitate so strongly to herding breeds and don't run bull terriers.


Thank you for taking a moment to respond to my question


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> I may be gettineveryone ut of context, I missed the other thread you all are talking about... but if a dog latched onto my bicep and was not releasing not only would it get punched it would more than likely get PTS. That is not OK.


It's six months old..... Which is why everyone was in an uproar. I think it's just a crazy out of control puppy, with no structure, super excitable, and an inexperienced handler. My six month old is crazy excited all the time. I could see him in this situation with a handler that wasn't providing structure. He loooves to bite. He'll play bitemy jjacket sleeves, heck I was trimming his nails last night and he wanted to play tug with the Clippers. Doesn't change that he is 60+ pounds, has all his teeth, and if latched onto my bicep, it would hurt and he could leave me needing stitches. My gut reaction in that minute would be to hit....get the dog off my arm... Any animal (humans included) be attacked and in pain, will do everything to end that. 

PS.... Don't use the word "punch".... It makes everyone jump on the" you're a dog abuser train " and then everything is derailed from there. Go read the thread it's insane. Lol

PPS... Puppy is Sox months old this week and is around 60 pounds... Still holding out for him to only top off at 85 lol!


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i dont even get why everyone or anyone would be on board with punching a dog in the head or skull
it is bone
self defense lesson 1 is hard to soft, soft to hard
not hard to hard or soft to soft
that means
fist to stomach not fist to jaw or face (bone)
or you will hurt yourself worse than you will hurt your opponent even if it is a dog 
but whatever i guess
to each his or her own 

also fani your post reads as a bit of a taunt
is that how it was intended?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

David Winners said:


> I'm confused. So your reaction / correction was warranted because the dog was jumping out of play, but would not be warranted if it was out of aggression / fear / dominance. So if a dog is playing with you too rough, it's OK to slam it into a fence, but not if it's trying to fight you for real.
> 
> Could you clarify this? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.


What I did is kind of like what the teachers would do to a seventh grade punk that mouthed off while walking down the hall in school. At least in my day at school which probably dates me a bit. But usually a male teacher might grab the boy and shove him up against the wall, and say, CUT THE CRAP! And yes, both feet would be off the ground. 

That is kind of what I did with that dog, and I do not necessarily think it was right to do for playing/greeting me. But if the dog was jumping on me because it was terrified of say a huge tractor in the field next to his kennel that he never saw before that was making a crazy noise. No, I hope I wouldn't have done the same thing. Though, on that day, at that time, in that situation, I just don't know, because it was hours after that operation. 

Correcting a dog for a fearful response is something I just am not sure I can do properly. If the dog is jumping up and biting me because that tractor thing making that horrible noise is getting closer -- that is something I do not want the dog to do. But would correcting the dog by punching, tasing or throwing it up against a fence, provide the desired result? The only way it could is if I am more scary than the tractor thing. 

The difference is the dominant-aggressive dog. I have not really dealt with a lot of dominant-aggressive dogs. None, really. I have had dominant bitches, and have had bitch-fights, but never dominant aggression toward a human. If you don't count my first GSD, and the longer I am around dogs, the more I think I had him pegged totally wrong. While he was working line/pet line, a bi-color, BYB dog, I think he was neither dominant or all that aggressive. I think he was owned by someone who lacked experience and made mistakes, and that later on he was in chronic pain. 

So not having dealt with a dominant-aggressive dog, where human aggression is coming from dominance, I can't say if I would use the approach I did on my dog or not. To let a dog get to 2 years old and then suddenly, do an eye-opening correction on a dominant-aggressive dog, sounds like it could be a recipe for getting bitten. The dog in that thread was biting -- puppy with adult teeth. Yeah. I just can't be afraid of a pup that young. But still. If the dog is biting the owner because it has learned to control the owner by biting it, stepping toe to toe with such a dog, I don't know, I expect you would have to be ready, willing and able to go pretty darn far if your correction -- punch whatever did not provide the desired result, and escalated the situation. 

Not knowing what that puppy's malfunction was, I really can't suggest a dominant-aggressive response to dominant-aggression, when the dog could be in one drive or another, or simply afraid and saying "GET ME OUTTA HERE!!!"

In my experience dog heads are pretty darn hard, and they can take substantial blows to their head, that would knock me on my butt. I don't want to get in a fist-fight with a dog. And, thankfully, it has never been necessary.


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## KaiserandStella (Feb 27, 2014)

I don't there is anything wrong with an adrenaline fueled-survival response to being attacked, accidentally injured, or latched onto by a dog/older puppy. Not an ideal or rational response but it's not wrong/evil given the causation. Peoples reactions to real world scenarios are sometimes not perfect. To me a correction is a physical (leash pop, nudge, poke, tap, block etc) or verbal (No, Hey, Stop etc) reprimand. I'm not a pure positive kind of person. Not adverse to getting physical but I've never punched a dog and never will. I don't think punching is very effective. Kicking can be effective if well placed (belly/side/groin) Some dogs will only get amped up and bite down more with a panicking human punching and kicking. I wouldn't advise others to do that.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> i dont even get why everyone or anyone would be on board with punching a dog in the head or skull
> it is bone
> self defense lesson 1 is hard to soft, soft to hard
> not hard to hard or soft to soft
> ...


Which one/part? About not using the word "punch," no I'm serious... I think that word alone shut that whole thread down... It's reopened now. 

I agree with your sentiment about punching. First thing I thought was, "punching a dog in the head would hurt my hand waaaay more than it would hurt my dog lol." Honestly, I think my 6mo would shake it off almost immediately, I think a prong would have a more "stunning" effect on him. Punch? I swear he slams his head into things during rough housing waaaay harder than any punch most could deliver. And he barely notices when he does it to himself lol. He smacked his face on the door frame racing through when he was only 4 months old.. Caused his one lip to swell for a day. Crazy dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

In my personal experience I find that corrections don't mean much unless the dog knows why it's being corrected. Therefore I use positive training for a good amount of time, until the dog understands what I'm looking for. I have not used a prong that often and when I do the dog(Midnite is the only one I use one with ) corrects himself. I have never gave him a pop or yank. When he is in the process of correcting himself I will tell him what I'm looking for. For example, heeling...he goes ahead and must feel the pressure, checks back with me and I tell him to heel and he does .


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

thing is
if you have such little control over a leashed dog that it is biting you that is an issue right there
the dog likely knows you are not in charge at all and it can eat your leg or arm just for the heck of it
there is some foundational issues going on that need to be addressed before the symptom of biting you on a walk is addressed


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> It's six months old..... Which is why everyone was in an uproar.
> 
> Ahh knew I had to be missing something. A puppy that is different.
> 
> ...


LOL Good luck with that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> *But you still didn't answer my question. You're walking along, and this six month old (out of nowhere or at the very least, unexpectedly, latches onto your bicep... Breaking skin... And NOT releasing... I am saying, int eh heat of the moment, the first time if that happened to me, I would give a fast hard correction, I don't know if it'd be hitting, kicking, smacking.... But it would be stern (there would be emotion, especially if the dog isn't letting go and is breaking skin)*. I just don't understand how now everyone is saying, "yes appropriate level of corrections would be correct." So, what's appropriate in that situation... A dog (or puppy) with a full set of adult canines, 60ish pounds, latching onto your upper arm, and not releasing. What. Do. You. Do.
> 
> Yes, ideally this would never have happened. But she didn't set the dog up, she didn't see any signs, they were on a walk.... Walking along... And the dog does this.... And saying "impossible... There must have been signs... Etc" is a cop out to the question. I think everyone describing the corrections they'd give were talking about what they'd do, in the heat of the moment, the first time. Everyone, at the time, said it was wrong to react that way. Okay... So what should she have done to get the dog off her arm? What should she do the next time? It's not like it's something she sets up like a fear of bikes, cars, dogs, etc.... It's just on a walk, and "out of nowhere."
> 
> ...


I don't know. I've not been in that situation. The individual has made a video of the behavior, was having trouble uploading it, maybe after seeing the pup in action we might have a better idea.

I do not know what I would do in the heat of the moment, but I would not set the situation up again so I could follow instructions to punch the dog. I would probably put a muzzle on the dog when walking and build up the bond by changing my leadership style and increasing the training. 

The puppy seems to spazz and bite ankles and then arms. While unpleasant for sure, I just don't see how pounding is the best advice to change the dynamics. 

I have a dog that is just a year old. I think on Monday. But she looks like a 10 month old puppy. I can picture her in this situation, and I cannot picture myself punching the dog to get her to release. I think that if I could grab the collar and lift her off her front feet, I might try that to get the dog to release. 

I got my hand in the middle of a fight once and got bit up pretty badly. But I did not react by hitting or punching. I walked to my car and drove it straight at the dogs, and they stopped to look at me, and I scooped one up and into the car before they had a chance to resume their hostilities. I had to go to the ER on that one. But I did not punch or hit. But then again the dogs did not latch onto me and not let go. There were two dogs though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

KaiserandStella said:


> I don't there is anything wrong with an adrenaline fueled-survival response to being attacked, accidentally injured, or latched onto by a dog/older puppy. Not an ideal or rational response but it's not wrong/evil given the causation. Peoples reactions to real world scenarios are sometimes not perfect. To me a correction is a physical (leash pop, nudge, poke, tap, block etc) or verbal (No, Hey, Stop etc) reprimand. I'm not a pure positive kind of person. Not adverse to getting physical but I've never punched a dog and never will. I don't think punching is very effective. Kicking can be effective if well placed (belly/side/groin) Some dogs will only get amped up and bite down more with a panicking human punching and kicking. I wouldn't advise others to do that.


In lieu of a like button :thumbup: good post!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I hear ya.....but just remember that loud mouth beagle saved your daughter from a potentially bad situation. 

Like Carmen said...that's a beagle for you. 




Lilie said:


> My daughter's Beagle (that is living with me at the moment) is the only dog that I've ever had the evil thought of using an e-collar. He is so VOCAL. However, he has never been taught not to be. So when I get home...Vocal...when I go to the barn...Vocal...when I'm feeding...Vocal...when I get up in the morning...Vocal.
> 
> Oh yea...I'd love to zap that little sucker. But in reality, he's over 10 years old. He's never been taught not to be vocal. So it's a very hard road I'm traveling on with him. But, I'm determined.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> i dont even get why everyone or anyone would be on board with punching a dog in the head or skull
> it is bone
> self defense lesson 1 is hard to soft, soft to hard
> not hard to hard or soft to soft
> ...


Do it enough times and your knuckles get protective calluses 

In all seriousness though at least in my case that is a rare form of punishment. Reserved for special cases. Example: malinois all jacked up in prey decides to crotch bite me for no other reason than it was there and prominent *wink* *wink* *nudge nudge* #ladiesman then yes i will probably take an immediate swing at the dogs head. Especially if it is the first time the dog has shown that behavior and is primed to never do it again if persuaded it is a bad idea. Could it be done with e collar? Sure if one is on the dog. Or a prong collar? Sure if one is on the dog.

For other stuff i use what you people might call a correction in training all the time. The video with Zebu contact heeling all happy? He was taught that entirely with a prong collar and a toy. Far more prong "corrections" than toy. I didn't lure that. He looks happy because he learned to avoid the prong. When the prong isn't on he avoids a slap a knee to the body or me grabbing him by his collar and doing an "intervention." In return if he carries out the behavior he sometimes gets to play. What that video doesn't show was the 15 minutes of heeling he did before for nothing but the avoidance of punishment. He doesn't get punished often because he was taught well. If you teach like you should the punishment should happen infrequently.

I teach as tactfully as i can but there comes a time when the dog knows what to do but just chooses to blow it off. And thats when punishment happens. How hard? Like others say depends on the dog, the infraction, and how many times the dog was punished and how hard previously for the same offense.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Carm, I didn't say he received a correction, I said we worked through it. After a few sessions he realized what brought the helper to him to get what he wanted, which was the sleeve. Until he exited that frenzied state he got nothing from me, or from the helper.

Does this change your opinion?


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

The leash was bouncing because I wasn't holding it. 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

M. Ellis discusses using corrections with puppies in this video. While the title is about alpha rolling he doesn't spend too much time on it, he goes on to discuss the differing levels used and at 6:45 in he tells about one particularly tough Mali puppy he was dealing with:

Alpha Rolls as a Correction Technique - Why You Should Never Use Them - YouTube


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Dog training takes finesse. Watching a skilled handler is like watching an artist. I remember struggling with my dog when I first started training him. I was yanking and cranking on him and my TD came to me and said "whats with all the harshness?" He asked for the leash and I watched him very gently turn my dog into butter in his hands. My goal since then is to become a better handler, more fair to the dog, a better communicator with the dog and watch the dog blossom. Its very inspiring when watched done right. (And yes my dog is hard enough to take a strong correction and stay engaged).


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

carmspack said:


> Corrections have to be bespoke or customized to the nature of the animal . You have to have a feel for what it is going to take to get the result . One size does not fit all.
> 
> so how about discussing how and what a good correction is?


This is the hardest part for me. It took me a lot of hours on this forum, a lot of reading, group classes with trainers, private lessons with trainers, more reading and watching videos, and most importantly, hours and hours of working with my dog to feel as if I'm just getting a clue about doing it effectively. OK, probably not effectively, but at least I'm starting to get what works for her. And I've had a dog in my life nearly continuously for over 40 years. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm a reasonably intelligent, well meaning, caring, empathetic dog owner with some solid years of experience, and I still feel like I'm stumbling around in the dark a lot of the time. This stuff is hard! Just understanding how your dog is responding to any interaction isn't instinctual for many people, myself included. But that is what is necessary to train, and especially correct, your dog, in my opinion.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

correcting a young pup and young dog for land sharking , is demanding social manners . The mother dog would put quick end to it . No excuse with teething .


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*


robk said:



Dog training takes finesse. Watching a skilled handler is like watching an artist. I remember struggling with my dog when I first started training him. I was yanking and cranking on him and my TD came to me and said "whats with all the harshness?" He asked for the leash and I watched him very gently turn my dog into butter in his hands. My goal since then is to become a better handler, more fair to the dog, a better communicator with the dog and watch the dog blossom. Its very inspiring when watched done right. (And yes my dog is hard enough to take a strong correction and stay engaged).

Click to expand...

*
just had to draw attention to this beautiful post

training is definitely not a one size fits all venture!

i grew up reading 'water dog' and trained my first dog that way 
then i learned there were better methods that help you retain your bond with the dog and build on that

when you know better you do better


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

And contrary to what a lot of trainers believe won't have an affect on bite work later.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that's right Bailiff . I do this with all my dogs going in to service . They learn biting isn't play. There is a time and a place and they apply themselves with power and control.

I don't stuff the dogs gob with toys -- which the dog could regard as a reward for the behaviour --- the message is clear , not on me, you don't do this.

you eliminate one source of conflict


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> If you have to keep issuing corrections for the same behavior, you're clearly not doing it right.


 
Really? How did you come up with that?

I can have a dog that knows heel and does it reliably. The dog may start to forge for a variety of reasons. Depending on the dog it may require corrections from time to time to maintain the proper position. Plenty of other examples.. 
Go watch a world competitor train with their IPO 3 dog that KNOWS the routine already. Plenty of corrections are still issued throughout the session. The same for LEO or whatever application you care to name.
Strong dogs with drive need reminders some more often then others.

I personally believe MOST handler sensitive dogs are the type to bale under pressure. The type of dog that only needs a verbal correction is definitely not breeding material in my books. I like dogs that test the handler from time to time.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

*edit*

Oh wait. That's just the hot wind blowing I heard. For a minute I thought someone said something.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> *edit*
> 
> Oh wait. That's just the hot wind blowing I heard. For a minute I thought someone said something.


 
Must be an echo.. Lots of those bouncing around this board.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> that's right Bailiff . I do this with all my dogs going in to service . They learn biting isn't play. There is a time and a place and they apply themselves with power and control.
> 
> I don't stuff the dogs gob with toys -- which the dog could regard as a reward for the behaviour --- the message is clear , not on me, you don't do this.
> 
> you eliminate one source of conflict


I have always felt in the minority on here in threads where people are complaining that their puppy is drawing blood and others say that this is normal and acceptable puppy behavior and just landsharking. People commenting on their scars from puppyhood. I just never understand this. It just wasn't tolerated in my household......telling a puppy not to chew on you is not going to ruin confidence for later training and if it does then the puppy wouldn't be suitable for bitework anyway. 
It is not acceptable for a puppy to be scarring it's owner......it surprises me how many think it is.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sparra I agree, I guess I'm out of the majority as well. Of all the gsd's I've had, they weren't human biting machines, maybe I was lucky? Maybe it was because I had the luxury of spending alot of time with them when they were puppies? don't know


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't know either. I have not had an issue being a pincushion and I would not consider myself God's gift to dog trainers. And I have had some dogs with plenty of drive.

I did redirect my pups however, and they seemed to quickly pick up the idea of biting the toy. Amazing how quickly the memory falls out of your head. I do recall scruffing Beau a few times with "no" and eye contact. Sure I did with the others.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Off topic continues - I have had a lot of puppies go through, and my dogs handle the puppy biting phase for me. If I have puppies that can't be around my dogs due to excessive parasite load, or sarcoptic mange, it takes a bit longer, and these are typically puppies who have not had the best pre-natal, birth, time with mom experiences, so have more mouthing "needs" than other pups might have. But as positive as I am, and with my refusal to correct a puppy, instead wanting to teach them, I still don't have the problems. Probably because I've raised a lot of puppies! But experience doesn't necessarily equal good methods. Replacement behaviors work best for me. 

Anyway, if I can get the results I want, without a physical correction (positive punishment) other than a verbal reminder, or a benign body block, or sometimes a negative punishment of turning away and ignoring until they stop something, why use them or worry if I am being just or fair? That's my goal, keep my hands away, no leash, just total mind control.  I have to live with these guys and they aren't necessarily normal or naturally biddable dogs. You would never know that to see their holiday picture series though! 

http://info.drsophiayin.com/free-poster-on-operant-conditioning has a nice poster.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

There are so many variables to keep in mind when discussing corrections. Like Baillif pointed out: what exactly do we mean by "correction." But also the fact that we all have different levels of experience, so even though we're all participating in a thread, some things will get lost simply because what's obvious to one will go over another's head and misunderstandings will occur. Another problem is people bank on their own successes, so if their first dog was easy to train with 'such and such' a method, then it's thought that this method works across the board.

One thing that stood out in the other thread was the idea that certain harsher human reactions (take your pick of punch, headbutt, etc) are accepted when dealing with certain (take your pick of hard, difficult, etc) dogs.

Even William Koehler says in one of his books,"...some disadvantages, the most harmful of which is...substitute meaningless discomfort for the fairness of adequate instruction and deserved correction." pg. 146 _Guard Dog Training_ Now, some people like to think of this man as cruel and inhumane, while others will use him as an example of what "real" training is. But even he wouldn't be ____ing his dog unless the dog understood why the ____ was occurring, at least that's how it reads to me. 

I can't say what I think a fair correction is without saying what I'm correcting in the first place, and saying how my dog is receiving it. In the other thread, I'd have used a stern"NO!" and stepped on the leash and waited for the puppy to settle down. If that didn't work, then I'd add a muzzle. If that didn't work, then I might add a scruff grab. It's hard to say when it's an imaginary problem with an imaginary dog. It could be something so simple, like the puppy just isn't getting enough running around time and is amped up already and actually getting outside puts it over the top, and that's why this behavior is happening. If that's the case, then the correction needs to be applied to myself, and I need to get off my butt and do something with my puppy so that its energy isn't pent up and released on my arm.


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

I think that physical corrections are dependant upon:
1. The dog
2. The level / type of training
3. The handler

I know this has all been talked before, but there isnt much discussion on the handler. 
IMO, if you are a soft person, by nature, you probably will not make a good "balanced" trainer that involves physically correcting a dog. What I mean by this, if it makes you uncomfortable to physically correct your dog, then don't do it. Your dog will pick up on your uneasiness and stress and will most likely confuse your dog. If you feel that physical corrections are not necessary and cruel, then don't use physical corrections.
If you are a strict, no nonsense type of person, then a balanced approach with physical corrections will work well. The dog will sense your confidence and clear approach.
And, like others have said, every situation / dog is different. 

Also, if a dog ever bit down on my arm with enough force to break skin and crush bone, I would not hesitiate to give the hardest correction necessary, including punching the dog in the head.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think it's also pretty obvious that things would never get to that point. The baby puppy grabs your pant leg, because it's right there. The older baby puppy jumps on your legs and tugs at your jacket. The 6 month old is latching onto your arm, drawing blood, hurting bone. Hmm, when to step in and correct the behavior?! Why wait until you can't tolerate it any more?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I get what youre saying and youre right about stopping escalating progressing behaviors, but it isnt always a straight line progression from sunshower to full blown hurricane. Sometimes its a dog that has some age related hormones flowing or is jacked up for some other reason and decides it feels like fighting you that day. Sometimes its a green dog and that kind of thing was there before you got ahold of him. Work enough dogs for enough time and eventually one is gonna go for you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if this is the case "IMO, if you are a soft person, by nature, you probably will not make a good "balanced" trainer that involves physically correcting a dog. What I mean by this, if it makes you uncomfortable to physically correct your dog, then don't do it. Your dog will pick up on your uneasiness and stress and will most likely confuse your dog"

is the GSD the breed for you ?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I hear ya. My pup's had a few occasions to learn things the hard way, but not without giving him a solid education first, though. He knows what I'm asking, and now he knows the repercussions for not following. I wasn't just making a suggestion to him, I was expecting compliance.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I personally believe MOST handler sensitive dogs are the type to bale under pressure. The type of dog that only needs a verbal correction is definitely not breeding material in my books. I like dogs that test the handler from time to time.


You couldn't be any farther from the truth. A handler sensitve dog continually tests the handler. If you've ever worked with one, you'd understand what I mean. 

Hard dogs, soft dogs, handler sensitive dogs can bale under pressure. But I certainly wouldn't say MOST handler sensitive dogs will. I could say that if a handler sensitive dog is baling, the fault might be with the handler and not the dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Just work 'around' enough dogs and it happens too....



Baillif said:


> I get what youre saying and youre right about stopping escalating progressing behaviors, but it isnt always a straight line progression from sunshower to full blown hurricane. Sometimes its a dog that has some age related hormones flowing or is jacked up for some other reason and decides it feels like fighting you that day. Sometimes its a green dog and that kind of thing was there before you got ahold of him. Work enough dogs for enough time and eventually one is gonna go for you.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Lilie said:


> You couldn't be any farther from the truth. A handler sensitve dog continually tests the handler. If you've ever worked with one, you'd understand what I mean.
> 
> Hard dogs, soft dogs, handler sensitive dogs can bale under pressure. But I certainly wouldn't say MOST handler sensitive dogs will. I could say that if a handler sensitive dog is baling, the fault might be with the handler and not the dog.



I agree. Handler sensitive can be indicative of genetic obedience. 

My particular post regarding only one correction was specific to one instance. Certain behaviors require more training, more reinforcement of 'this, not that', either by positive or negative correlation. My dog is not a very handler sensitive dog, which I've had before, and I wish he were more genetically obedient.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Carmen, would it be more correct to say that a 'good' handler sensitive dog is exhibiting genetic obedience? 

(eta : whoops I see rocket dog was going in the same direction.  )




carmspack said:


> if this is the case "IMO, if you are a soft person, by nature, you probably will not make a good "balanced" trainer that involves physically correcting a dog. What I mean by this, if it makes you uncomfortable to physically correct your dog, then don't do it. Your dog will pick up on your uneasiness and stress and will most likely confuse your dog"
> 
> *is the GSD the breed for you* ?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Baillif said:


> If you teach like you should the punishment should happen infrequently.


On that we agree entirely. 

And _whatever_ method you used to teach Zebu that heeling, I'm impressed with your results and also with your willingness to explain how you got there with such candor.

I think a lot of times, and not just on this board, people get so hung up on defending their One True Way (or cutting down other people who don't train the same way) that they are unwilling to notice or compliment when somebody who does things differently gets good results. And I think that's unfortunate. We all pay lip service to the concept that there are a thousand roads to Rome, so why not recognize its concrete examples? 

It isn't how I would have done it, but as far as I can tell, that youtube shows a happy, willing working dog.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

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I may have missed this info in a post on this thread, but coupled in with the posts from the other closed thread and all the hoopla surrounding those posts, and what is being discussed here, it raises this question. 

What, exactly, is an acceptable "physical" correction? What action is taking place by the handler to correct an overly aggressive action by the dog? So is it jabbing the dog, yanking the dog, grabbing the dog? What? I see the word physical mentioned several times and have yet to see anyone elaborate as to just what they are refering to as a "physical" correction. Again, sorry if I missed it, please point me in that direction.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the GSD , "herding breeds" , by nature are required to be IN TUNE connected with the handler, to do their work . This does not mean being submissive. Give them a bit of praise and they rev up .
If anything they try harder . 

The dog I posted as going 150/150 KNPV gsd (Gandalf Brandevoort) son of genetics that were deliberately brought in for more biddable, guidable , handler connected dog. The sire is also KNPV Met Lof 432/440 --- 

" the fault might be with the handler and not the dog." Blitzkrieg has this to learn yet.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Carmen, would it be more correct to say that a 'good' handler sensitive dog is exhibiting genetic obedience? "

not entirely. Guide dogs are sensitive to handler and will adjust . 

these are not pro trainers or handlers that are paired with them. They are people needing the services of a dog. The people have all sorts of emotional states and temperaments themselves . Some can be quite hard and clumsy handlers -- It would be DANGEROUS for the dog to bale .


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think that's a personal decision, jafo. For example, many people like the ecollar because they say that the dog's not getting the correction from the handler. But then I personally question that attitude: my belief (and I'm not saying I'm right, only that this is how I feel about it) is that I want my dog to know that the correction (say a scruff grab, since I brought it up already) is coming from me because I'm displeased with the choice he's made - he's chosen to disregard my command (say "Leave it" with my cat, as this did happen) and this is the direct result. I like the scruff grab because it gets the point across, and it's not something that will hurt the dog. Like if you accidentally punch your dog in the eye, or fracture a bone while kicking your dog, how bad would that be?!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

carmspack said:


> if this is the case "IMO, if you are a soft person, by nature, you probably will not make a good "balanced" trainer that involves physically correcting a dog. What I mean by this, if it makes you uncomfortable to physically correct your dog, then don't do it. Your dog will pick up on your uneasiness and stress and will most likely confuse your dog"
> 
> is the GSD the breed for you ?


I'm soft by nature, but I've learned that with my GSD's I have to push back or they will walk all over me. Most of the time I do feel uncomfortable physically correcting a dog, but on the flip side when I do get pushed to the point of physical correction its usually that perfect timing situation where I do it without thinking first.. The dog really pays attention and I don't have to do it again and again.

You asked "Is the GSD the breed for you?" which is actually why I responded to your post... I found it intriguing . I'd have to say probably not but I'll never give them up now.  My husband was the one who originally liked and wanted the big pushy dogs, but I've sort of grown attached. 

That being said a while back I got what I was told was a border collie/lab mix but what actually grew into a Pitt. I was one who never wanted a Pitt, not worth the risk blah blah.... He is the sweetest easiest dog I've ever met. He is the biggest couch potato, lives to please us and for the creature comforts in life. I totally dig this dog. :wub:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Hard and soft is kinda vague too. Theres hard dogs with great bounce back theres hard dogs with poor bounce back although those are a bit more rare. There are soft (usually get called sensitive in this case) dogs with great bounce back (easiest and best way to go imo) and there are soft dogs with poor bounce back and those are not fun to deal with at all because they just want to mope.

But yeah there are ones that are handler sensitive and will still come up the leash at you until you convince them its a bad idea. There are plenty that will be sensitive to punishment or -R but if theres no relationship there they'll fight like tigers. Then there are ones who are just handler sensitive but anyone not holding the leash is fair game when you tell them to go. Decoy pressure wont make them run.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah yes and I recall a term when reading about service dogs for the blind that they must have 'intelligent disobedience'. If the blind handler wants to go in a certain direction but the dog sees, say an oncoming car, and stops of his own accord because it's applying it's judgment over that of the handler. Amazing stuff, training wise and aptitude wise for the dog!





carmspack said:


> "Carmen, would it be more correct to say that a 'good' handler sensitive dog is exhibiting genetic obedience? "
> 
> not entirely. Guide dogs are sensitive to handler and will adjust .
> 
> these are not pro trainers or handlers that are paired with them. They are people needing the services of a dog. The people have all sorts of emotional states and temperaments themselves . Some can be quite hard and clumsy handlers -- It would be DANGEROUS for the dog to bale .


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We need that for SAR/Cadaver as well (Intelligent disobedience) .... The dog's first obedience has to be to the odor.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't know what the technical term for it would be but in my world I prefer a dog that has some desire to 'please' me, in addition to other rewards.

Pack drive? Biddable? Genetic Obedience?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

jafo220 said:


> What, exactly, is an acceptable "physical" correction? What action is taking place by the handler to correct an overly aggressive action by the dog? So is it jabbing the dog, yanking the dog, grabbing the dog? What? I see the word physical mentioned several times and have yet to see anyone elaborate as to just what they are refering to as a "physical" correction. Again, sorry if I missed it, please point me in that direction.


These posts all fail to articulate the dog's over all mentality, the offense and the exact physical correction. 

A physical correction for one dog might be completely wrong for another dog. 

Age, mentality (hardness, attitude, physical condition etc) and offense are all factors in an effective physical correction.

If you have to keep doing the same physical correction over and over and still get the same results from the dog, it's the wrong correction. Step back and think, work smarter not harder.

For example, we had a rescue that was 2 when we got him. Luther grew up in a frat house and thought it was okay to put people in his mouth. He liked fore arms in particular. My husband tried every strong man tactic from punching him in the head to backing him against a wall to TRYING to pin him with an alpha roll. It went on for months with my husband having purple forearms. 

Luther bit me once, the second day we had him. It was playful, he was excited and I stopped it. Long story short, Luther went into training, we bonded, he would put my arm in his mouth but he never exerted pressure on me again. He still had the tendency to WANT to put people in his mouth. 

The right correction for Luther didn't come to me in a cloud of magic fairy dust, it took a while to figure out that a correction for Luther was 1. verbal 2. he didn't listen, scruff him. Scruffing him was the physical correction. Eventually my hard headed husband learned this technique with the hard headed dog and stopped getting bit.

Then there's Otto, who's also a punk. Otto and Luther are so much alike in many ways it's almost like their the same dog. Except Otto has a neck made of leather and scruffing him does nothing except hurt my fingers. 

When Otto was a teenage GSD, I should have kept him tethered more but life happens, you can't always do everything that's the right thing. There were times I had to put a towel over his eyes to break him from his cycle of insanity. Other times I had to grab him by the sides of his face and shake him - physical correction. 

One time, he was young, maybe 5 or 6 months, he ran into my 3 year old daughters room and I went behind him to find the puppy had my daughter by the footie PJs, pulling her around the room. She was laughing and he thought this was great fun. Aus. Didn't listen, I pulled his jaws apart, sat him down hard, got in his face and said NO BITES. He knew what I meant, we'd been through months of don't bite my pant legs and don't pull my socks off. Then the child also got a lecture that's not going to be funny when he's 90lbs. 

When Otto was learning to heel,I had to snap pop his prong collar so hard he'd yelp just to get his attention. He had to go to heeling CLASS for like a year, nothing any of the trainers had to offer worked. I finally found my own solution, music off my cell phone, it reminds him I'm holding the leash here. I don't think he feels the prong collar unless I crank it up.

He's 6 in May and not a walk goes by that he doesn't need a reminder not to walk me. Just one word that Otto knows will be followed by a prong pop if he doesn't listen. 

The word is the correction, if he doesn't listen it's followed by a physical correction with the prong collar. LOL lately though it's followed by my 14 month old female crossing over in front of me and biting his face. She's also issuing him a physical correction in dog language - wish the last bitch had done that to him as a pup.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

SunCzarina said:


> These posts all fail to articulate the dog's over all mentality, the offense and the exact physical correction.
> 
> A physical correction for one dog might be completely wrong for another dog.
> 
> ...




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Thats kind of why I raised the question. When using that reference, maybe an example should be inserted along with it so that it's clear to other posters just what the situation is. This includes the dogs tendancy and the reason for the handlers type of physical correction. It should not be "generalized" or lumped together because dogs are different, situations are different. My mind goes back to a dog that may be "hard" and a handler who is "soft" or just inexperienced like myself that would benefit from an explination of the situation or hypothetical situation and it's corrective measure. 

I have a pretty good trainer in this area. But there may be others who don't.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Each one teaches you something. Luther was my 4th GSD, first rescue. That dog taught me I knew NOTHING LOL. 

The trainer was gold, shepherd person herself. Her mantra was 'I'm not going to train your dog, I'm going to teach you to train your dog' Otto's breeder was on her recommendation. Such as my luck, Otto was a pup when she stopped teaching to have more time taking care of her elderly mother.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

I don't have a lot of time to discuss, but would like to share an anecdote re: corrections. 

Several years ago, I attended a herding seminar with a nationally known trainer. I had a working slot with Gavin - this was our first time herding together. We sat outside the ring and he watched a few runs definitely showing interest. The moment we stepped into the pen, he was ON. For those who haven't done any herding, just imagine trying to juggle four wildly moving sheep, a very lively GSD and one very nice man . . Oh, and everything is happening at 900 mph. With an audience. 

Our stated objective was to get the dog circling calmly and not let him grip the sheep. We eventually got to that point, but I had to learn a lesson first. I had given several lie down commands and my dog would plop down then spring back up only to repeat an unwanted behavior (coming in too fast and attempting to grip). The presenter had me stop and here came the lesson. "Your dog didn't tell you he'd been corrected." Me: "huh?" The presenter explained that he believes in correcting the dog to the point that something about their body language says 'Oh, That wasn't right? I will try not to do that again.'

This idea has stayed with me through the years. For some dogs it can be as subtle as tone of voice and their response might be something as subtle as ears flicking back, but I want to see some small sign that says my correction was perceived and that it will do what a correction is designed to do - correct unwanted behavior. Just my two cents.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

YES 

"The presenter explained that he believes in correcting the dog to the point that something about their body language says 'Oh, That wasn't right? I will try not to do that again.'

This idea has stayed with me through the years. For some dogs it can be as subtle as tone of voice and their response might be something as subtle as ears flicking back, but I want to see some small sign that says my correction was perceived and that it will do what a correction is designed to do - correct unwanted behavior. Just my two cents."

and this goes BOTH ways . A dog should also show you that your REWARD was well communicated and received . 
__________________


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Guardyan said:


> The presenter had me stop and here came the lesson. *"Your dog didn't tell you he'd been corrected."* Me: "huh?" The presenter explained that he believes in correcting the dog to the point that something about their body language says 'Oh, That wasn't right? I will try not to do that again.'


Such a simple sentence, but it makes so much sense!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blanketback said:


> ...
> 
> One thing that stood out in the other thread was the idea that certain harsher human reactions (take your pick of punch, *headbutt*, etc) are accepted when dealing with certain (take your pick of hard, difficult, etc) dogs.
> 
> ...


Headbutt, was a joke. 

I made up this eloquent post that I tried to post, when they closed that thread about headbutting a dog. The bottom line is, if you headbutt a dog, you will lose. BTDTGTTS (but not on purpose).


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

selzer said:


> Headbutt, was a joke.
> 
> I made up this eloquent post that I tried to post, when they closed that thread about headbutting a dog. The bottom line is, if you headbutt a dog, you will lose.


I can imagine you would lose painfully and may end up concussed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I can imagine you would lose painfully and may end up concussed.


We may be a hard-headed species, but if we go about headbutting dogs, we will become a stiff-necked people.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Merciel said:


> I think a lot of times, and not just on this board, people get so hung up on defending their One True Way (or cutting down other people who don't train the same way) that they are unwilling to notice or compliment when somebody who does things differently gets good results. And I think that's unfortunate. We all pay lip service to the concept that there are a thousand roads to Rome, so why not recognize its concrete examples?
> 
> It isn't how I would have done it, but as far as I can tell, that youtube shows a happy, willing working dog.


And if i had a dog where that method wasn't working or good for the dog I wouldn't do it either. The point is to get the behavior accurately and reliably while keeping the dog happy and motivated and if I cant get that doing things a certain way I wont keep hammering away at it to the detriment of the dog or my own sanity. 

There is no one true way. Maybe for each particular dog there is. I suspect even then it would be a moving target. There is a time for silk gloves and a time for iron fists and largely I see it based on knowing the dog and some trial and error. I want a dog that looks punished when its being punished and not wanting to repeat the experience that got him there. What I don't want is a dog that is so punished it shuts down, cant continue its job.


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