# Your thoughts appreciated



## MommaBoss (Jul 16, 2010)

Well I found a nearby Schutzhund club and am looking forward to going this Saturday morning! I'm wondering what you think about the first piece of advice I received and that is to mostly keep my puppy in his crate as opposed to around the house with the other dogs and children. The reasoning is that he will be super-amped up when he gets out and will have more of a drive to do the 'work,' so to speak. As far as particulars, the idea is to keep the pup crated during the day unless I am actively training him. Has anyone done it this way, and how did it turn out for you and your pup. Mine is just about 6 months old.


----------



## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

I haven't done that with my dogs (two Schutzhund III's and a soon to be Schutzhund I). I can't just stick a dog in the closet like a set of golf clubs.

And keeping him away from other dogs, children, and other people will cause lots of problems bigger than "not being driven enough to work."


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Agree with Hunther's Dad
I don't follow that advice either. Either the pup will have what it takes or it won't and crating it to build drive is not how I want my dogs to live. 
Crating for a bit after learning a lesson is recommended so the pup can process what it just learned. I do that and before training. He'd be a spinning mess if I crated him constantly.
And his muscle tone would be nil.
I don't let my pup play with just any dog, but interaction with dogs and people is important.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't do it. If the dog needs to be isolated and confined just to build up drive then I'd rather find something more suitable for that dog's temperament. 

I DO crate my dog before and after heavy training for rest. Going to training means a lot of travel, so by default the dog is crated in the van and well rested, and also rests on the way home. At home, I crate for 20 mins or so after a long track or more intense training.

Otherwise, my dogs have free reign of the house and yard, access to lots of toys, and the other dogs.


----------



## MommaBoss (Jul 16, 2010)

Thanks for the input. After thinking it over, that's really not the kind of life I had imagined for my dog. He sticks to my side like glue while we're in the house, and now I must admit I think I've gotten so accustomed to it (and love it) that I'm codependent!!! He will either succeed at Schutzhund or not, but either way he'll go through the obedience and tracking training and probably make some doggie-buddies along the way. As far as progressing all the way to the bite work, I'll leave that option undecided for now since it's really up to Boss as to how far he wants to take it. I do believe I need to get him involved in something more than playing fetch in the backyard to work his mind and release his energy. I saw how motivated he was several times 'herding' our Yorkie, but I've been unable to find out about any herding clubs close by....Va Beach is not as oriented to farming as other central Va communities, although we do have a large area of farmland in southern Va Beach but that farmland is more for crops than cattle. For now, I'm looking forward to exploring something new this Saturday morning and we'll see how it goes!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Go for it, use your own instincts....the bond you share with your dog is the most important thing and when that is strong and he is willing to please, whatever venue you train in will be enjoyable. If it isn't then do something else. Wish you luck, please update!!


----------



## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Just a note.. Boss did GREAT for his first time in protection work!!!!! That boy is going to LOVE what he does... has great prey drive... look forward to seeing you out there on a more regular basis ( we have a LOT of slackers... lol... as you saw today, there about 4-5 others that just come whenever). Gimme your email and I will send you pics of Boss, or if u do Facebook, i will have them all posted!


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Just my opinion on the crate idea. purposeful crating can be an excellent tool. Some would say its use is for building drive. I use crating as an exercise in focus and how I want to shape the dogs use of its drive. For example if my dog is getting all his needs met and fun,etc from interacting with everyone else in the house, it may not leave much left over to work with ME- or my ability to access what motivates him. This has been very helpful to me when I am building or enriching my working relationship with my dog. I will do more crating for a short period of time - say a week or so just to help the dog realize where it can best channel its energy. I have done extra crating as a pup matures into a young dog and starts to "challenge" - so its has to work for its affection, food, play, etc. Again only for a specific time period. Crating allows me to isolate the desired behavior and mind set. I do not crate all the time some hard core craters do. However my puppy is crated if and when I cannot be 100% supervising him. My dogs are also crated for an hour or so before I bring them out for a training session so they can rest up and sometimes crate them after a session, especially tracking or an intense bitework session with the hopes they can settle and maybe "soak in" the lesson. 
I have seen a few dogs that are quite unfocussed and clearly get their joy from everything else, except the handler- or dogs who have not developed a high drive state needed for schH those dogs may benefit tremendously from intentional crating as a part of heir training. But again its a tool and doesn't need to be a forever routine.
In the big picture, my dogs must live in my life and intentional crating can be a great idea if used in a balanced manner.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Stark goes everywhere with me and has been socialized up the wazoo since he was 8 weeks old with dogs, cats, kids, people, horses, sheep, different sounds, textures, places, etc...

I believe that the crate plays an important role in a dogs life, but I don't think it can "help" a dog with drive. Like Jane said, either the dog has it or doesn't.

Stark for example is a great dog, he is a tone of fun and can do a bunch of different things really well. We have done obedience (rally courses), agility, and now schutzhund. Is he going to reach a SchHIII? Probably not, the drive isn't there.. do I care.. nope! We have fun training (even though I am totally frustrated sometimes!) and the bond that we now have from 'working together' is so much more than what I thought it would be, plus he has so much fun and we are both learning in the process!

From the pictures posted from Cullen's Dad it looks like he did great and had a tone of fun! Good for you for trying something new!!!


----------



## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

::cough:: Cullen's MOM lol


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Oooops!

Sorry Cullen's Mom!!! I knew you were a women too! DUH!!!


----------



## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Haha.. it's ok... just wanted to make sure !!!


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Sarah'sSita said:


> Just my opinion on the crate idea. purposeful crating can be an excellent tool. Some would say its use is for building drive. I use crating as an exercise in focus and how I want to shape the dogs use of its drive. For example if my dog is getting all his needs met and fun,etc from interacting with everyone else in the house, it may not leave much left over to work with ME- or my ability to access what motivates him. This has been very helpful to me when I am building or enriching my working relationship with my dog. I will do more crating for a short period of time - say a week or so just to help the dog realize where it can best channel its energy. I have done extra crating as a pup matures into a young dog and starts to "challenge" - so its has to work for its affection, food, play, etc. Again only for a specific time period. Crating allows me to isolate the desired behavior and mind set. I do not crate all the time some hard core craters do. However my puppy is crated if and when I cannot be 100% supervising him. My dogs are also crated for an hour or so before I bring them out for a training session so they can rest up and sometimes crate them after a session, especially tracking or an intense bitework session with the hopes they can settle and maybe "soak in" the lesson.
> I have seen a few dogs that are quite unfocussed and clearly get their joy from everything else, except the handler- or dogs who have not developed a high drive state needed for schH those dogs may benefit tremendously from intentional crating as a part of heir training. But again its a tool and doesn't need to be a forever routine.
> In the big picture, my dogs must live in my life and intentional crating can be a great idea if used in a balanced manner.


I agree with this. I don't necessarily think with my puppy that it's about deprivation to increase drive, but rather making sure that when my puppy has drive and energy to expend he does it with me and I help him focus and channel it into activities. When most people have the puppy out and about in the house...they're not really paying attention to it or interacting with it. They either expect it to nap in the same room while they are on the computer/watching TV or they give it a toy and expect it to occupy itself while they are doing what they need to do. To my mind this is counterproductive as the dog learns he doesn't need you to have fun and he can make his own games.

As far as limiting exposure to the other dogs/kids...well I don't know about kids but I do let my puppy have free run with the other dogs. I actually limit their interaction pretty heavily in the beginning. My reason for this is that my dogs are hardwired to communicate and interact with the puppy. And it's easy for the puppy to play with them and get what they need from them. BUT I need my puppy to get all of that from me, and he has to learn how to do that. It's easy for a puppy to get "doggy" and that can be difficult down the road. How many posts do we see about "Help...My dog won't listen when there are other dogs around!" I want my dogs to get along with each other but always respond to me individually and I find that easiest to achieve when my puppy learns I'm #1 first and then I add in the other dogs. 

Another valuable use for the crate has to do with typical manners training and avoiding it. A SchH puppy should be forward and pushy with it's play. You want a dog that wants to do things, is into whatever is out, wants to bite and tug, and is curious. Manners training can be counterproductive. When my puppy is out in the house...if I'm not 100% engaged with him...my laundry gets dragged around the house, he checks out what's on the counters, he gets on all the furniture, he gets into cupboards, he plays in the water bowls, he jumps at me and bites at my pants to get me to play...this can be rough if I want to do something else. I could teach him to "turn off" but if I'm not as equally focused on teaching him how to "turn on" I can end up with a dog that has drive...but has so many boundaries about his relationships with people that he has difficulty in training. This is not to say that the SchH puppy cannot have rules and manners, they can. But manners have to be taught through Action commands rather than "Don't" rules. For example...Sit when I pet you...instead of Don't jump. It's hard when a puppy is very free in the house to rein in that urge we humans have to say "Don't" or "No".


----------



## MommaBoss (Jul 16, 2010)

This is weird, but Boss seems to have taken on a new persona since our training on Saturday....he's turned into a 'wild' man. He's completely over the top while playing with our two and a half year old Bulldog and it's to the point of constant jumping on him, mouthy, barky type of rough housing. He's not trying to hurt the other dog, but on the other hand he just won't leave him alone and I worry that one of them will get hurt. He already had this inclination but it seems to have intensified since Saturday. Also, I've noticed a big change in the way he plays with me now. Any manners he used to have are practically gone and he jumps at me/the ball like he's gonna get it at any cost if I don't throw it. In the house today, he was barrelling through like a bull in a china shop and even snatched my son's chicken leg off his plate at dinner! (I now know he loves KFC) I chased him a million laps around the kitchen island and ultimately had to scold him to get him to stop....weighing the damage of the scold vs. the damage a chicken bone could do to his internal organs....


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Crate him! help him with his drives. Set-up more success in the house. Seriously, it will make the training easier in the long run!


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

MommaBoss said:


> Also, I've noticed a big change in the way he plays with me now. Any manners he used to have are practically gone and he jumps at me/the ball like he's gonna get it at any cost if I don't throw it.


Now see for me I think this is GREAT!! Because what you get to learn now is not how to stop it...but how to control it and channel it into exercises!!

You might look into starting to teach the game that Ivan Balabanov uses. 





And when he gets to be too much...well that's why I use my crate. Great SchH puppies do not always make great pets...BUT Great SchH dogs usually do  As they grow, with training SchH dogs are the best. Mine all live in my house and are super well behaved but they take time to get there. Agree with Sarah. It's all about setting them up for success and creating habits. If he can only be loose in the house when he is calm and behaving himself...then he will begin to associate that behavior with that environment.


----------



## MommaBoss (Jul 16, 2010)

I totally see what you're talking about with the crating to protect drives and bring focus. I was just shocked at how quickly his play changed from a "laaaateeeeedaaahhh, I'll trot over to you and wait for you to throw it, to I want that ball and I'm gonna get in your face and take it from you!!" Yes, I think that's great too and I'm excited about it, but we have a world of hard work and training ahead of us. One other thing I'll mention on the crating issue that I've noticed and dovetails with what Jklatsky was saying is that if I don't crate him when I'm not giving him 100 percent attention, the children and their friends become the 'dog trainers' and will scold him or say 'no' rather than tell him what they DO want him to do. I am trying to train my children (and their friends) now not to give negative feedback and if they do, to heap on the positive several times over!


----------



## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

LOL... we have that with Cullen sometimes. He can get rough with our senior, so , they are allowed small bouts of time hanging out, but they are separated most of the time. I keep them around each other enough to not wanna hate or fight, and still want to play, but not enough that one could get injured, and never unsupervised. Cullen lives in my office, and is only let out when with me personally ( though, i have had to scold the humans when I come home and he is lounging anywhere he pleases. 

Boss will get better, I Promise. Cullen has gotten now to where he KNOWS where his room is, and I can leave the door wide open with no barrier and he will not come unless called, or someone is at the door ( he DOES have to protect us from EVERYONE ya know )


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Crating will not build drive if drive is not there to begin with. It's true that to a large extent a dog either has it or he doesn't. But at the same time, use common sense and watch your dog. If the dog looks bored and acts unfocused at training, then I would think about tightening things up a little bit at home. It's really just NILIF or what Susan Garrett calls "Ruff Love".


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I love Susan Garret. I learned a lot from her video called "Crate Games" fun way to help with self control, etc and fun!!!


----------



## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I've never done that either. If a dog has the drive, it has the drive no matter what.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have used Susan Garrett's Ruff Love program to build the training relationship. Also, I do crate some prior to training, not so much for drive, but rather energy and desire is higher. This is in the beginning of foundation work. Once all is established, it is different.


----------



## DevinM (Aug 2, 2010)

I have an unrelated question I wanted some help with.
I have a WGSD, I'm not a breeder & am not interested in starting a kennel or anything, but wanted to know, if I breed my wgsd with let's say a sable or a tan gsd, it shouldn't effect the breed since there both GSD's, correct ?


----------



## Stogey (Jun 29, 2010)

DevinM said:


> I have an unrelated question I wanted some help with.
> I have a WGSD, I'm not a breeder & am not interested in starting a kennel or anything, but wanted to know, if I breed my wgsd with let's say a sable or a tan gsd, it shouldn't effect the breed since there both GSD's, correct ?


This question might be better served in the Breeding Section of the Forum 

Oh and welcome aboard !


----------



## MommaBoss (Jul 16, 2010)

Samba said:


> I have used Susan Garrett's Ruff Love program to build the training relationship. Also, I do crate some prior to training, not so much for drive, but rather energy and desire is higher. This is in the beginning of foundation work. Once all is established, it is different.


 Pardon my stupidity , but how do you define 'drive?' I thought drive IS energy and higher desire. I'm not trying to pick at words but am wondering if we all are talking about the same thing?? Since Boss did so well during the protection training last Saturday (showed much energy and high desire), I thought he had the 'drive,' but now I just wonder if there is something I am missing. I just don't want to make any mistakes with him. I think my trainer was saying the same thing that other posters have said about the crating in that it is better to crate him if I'm not actively playing, training or supervising rather than letting him wear himself out playing with the other dogs and then too tired or unfocused on his time and training with me. Please clarify this 'drive' thing. Is drive in schutzhund more about all three classes: obedience, tracking and protection or something else?


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Drive and energy are very frequently confused but are not the same thing. 

A dog can have energy, be bouncing off the walls, and have no real drive. These dogs are often characterized as hyper. Maybe they can run all day long...but they have no aptitude for the work. A dog can also have a quiet intensity that doesn't seem energetic but actually be quite high in drive. Think about the dog that locks in on the rag. Maybe he's not squealing and jumping, but he is very focused on the object and seeks to grab it when he can. 

You also need to understand that there are a number of different drives that can utilized in training. Food drive, Prey drive, Defense drive...are all commonly referred to when discussing a dog's drives. Also understand that there are a number of different theories and interpretations. To further complicate matters there is also the discussion of thresholds. 2 dogs equal in the level of their prey drive...1 can get to that maximum level very quickly with less provocation (lower threshold), and the other takes more work to get to that same level (high threshold). It is very complicate and I certainly don't always understand it. 

Try reading some articles. 
Schutzhund Village
Understanding Drives


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

In my opinion this article is one of the betters defining those concepts as "drive" "nerve" thresholds" and "energy".

(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have done it and I no longer remember why but I did it for a set period of time and I can't even remember if it helped. It is something you can always experiment with. Also just because of the distance to training my dogs were crated


----------



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

After housetraining was done I pretty much stopped the whole crating all the time thing. The dog earned his free reign of the house with his behavior and he gets it. I do crate him for about an hour before training and up to an hour after but other than that he has free reign of the house and goes everywhere with me. 

It hasn't killed his drive. I don't, however, keep tugs / balls / other non-chew toys laying around - those are special and I only bring them out during training.

Haven't had any problems with drive or intensity, however my dog was called a mal in a shepherd's body numerous times, so I don't know if it's the best example lol


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

My Ari dog hasn't been crated since he was about 4 months old. If that has lowered his drive and energy levels..... then thank goodness!!!


----------

