# Just an example of "who" can pass the BH



## Mrs.K

I do not want to bash the handler. However, the dog walking behind her, is pretty much unacceptable. I am not so worried about the fact that there is no focus whatsoever but I had the feeling that the dog was going on a walk instead of actually working. A dog doesn't have to have the perfect focus but walking behind the handler, trying to go around the handler... going from the sit into the downstay, rolling in the gras, when she re-calls the dog he actually passed her and then went around her to finally sit in the front...would you want a dog like that passing the BH?
In my opinion that dog was nowhere near ready to do the BH. 

** video removed by Admin**


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## GSDElsa

I guess I don't really see the problem. Certainly not perfect, but the BH is not an obedience title. It is a TEMPERMENT TEST...like the CGC on steroids. It was not perfect, but the point is to evaluate if a dog has the control and temperment to move onto an Sch1. While the dog lagged, he did not go off sniffing on his own or run off during the off-leash heeling. He appropriately ignored the people standing around him while he was heeling through "the crowd." It certainly was not a performance that showed a great deal of finess, and there were a lot of mistakes. It likely would have been a very low score if it was based on points. But it's not. It's pass/fail and the dog more or less did what he was supposed to since it's not an obedience title.

Sometimes you confuse me. You had no problem with the Golden getting an SchH1 based on his protection routine, but this you find huge fault in? I don't want to bring that issue up again since it's been hashed to death, but it just makes no sense.


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## Samba

I have to agree since it is not a scored obed test that it seems passable. I have seen dogs in obedience make similar errors and still pass even. 

I am picky about my dog's obedience so I wouldn't necessarily want them performing in that manner on a BH. But that is only with future Obed in mind, not the requirements for the B.

I have not been versed in the aspects of judging a B. What are passing criteria?


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## Mrs.K

It is not _just _a temperament test. It is Basic Obedience test and testing them how they act in public places as well around other dogs and people. And you need the BH in order to be eligible to compete in Agility, Obedience, SchH (in Germany) without the BH you can't do it. 

There are rules in place for the BH and the rules clearly state that the dog cannot walk in front of your or behind you. 

It was not only "not perfect" the dog was not ready for the BH. There were so many things wrong with it that he should have never passed the BH in the first place, in my opinion.


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## Mrs.K

Plus she is talking to him, giving him signals, even clapping her hands.... big NO-NO!


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> I guess I don't really see the problem. Certainly not perfect, but the BH is not an obedience title. It is a TEMPERMENT TEST...like the CGC on steroids. It was not perfect, but the point is to evaluate if a dog has the control and temperment to move onto an Sch1. While the dog lagged, he did not go off sniffing on his own or run off during the off-leash heeling. He appropriately ignored the people standing around him while he was heeling through "the crowd." It certainly was not a performance that showed a great deal of finess, and there were a lot of mistakes. It likely would have been a very low score if it was based on points. But it's not. It's pass/fail and the dog more or less did what he was supposed to since it's not an obedience title.
> 
> Sometimes you confuse me. You had no problem with the Golden getting an SchH1 based on his protection routine, but this you find huge fault in? I don't want to bring that issue up again since it's been hashed to death, but it just makes no sense.


A golden doing the SchH1 has nothing to do with this performance shown in this video. 

The dog was not ready for the BH, plain and simple. Talking, giving hand-signals, clapping is not acceptable. He was behind the handler, not acceptable. He went from sit into down, rolled in the grass which is a fault as well.


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## ayoitzrimz

I still like what my trainer said one time: his dog's obedience routine is near perfect. He's been proofed to death and trained extensively. Attention, focus, desire, it's all there and yet he doesn't have a BH yet.

Someone asked him one time why he didn't do the B on him yet and he said because he didn't feel the dog was ready to compete period. The way he rationalized it is that the dog doesn't know it's just a BH and not a real trial, the dog knows he's on the field with a judge and as far as the dog is concerned this could be the world championship. He didn't want to trial him until the dog gave his absolute best.

Some people might disagree, but I think it's a good point to at least consider.


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## Mrs.K

ayoitzrimz said:


> I still like what my trainer said one time: his dog's obedience routine is near perfect. He's been proofed to death and trained extensively. Attention, focus, desire, it's all there and yet he doesn't have a BH yet.
> 
> Someone asked him one time why he didn't do the B on him yet and he said because he didn't feel the dog was ready to compete period. The way he rationalized it is that the dog doesn't know it's just a BH and not a real trial, the dog knows he's on the field with a judge and as far as the dog is concerned this could be the world championship. He didn't want to trial him until the dog gave his absolute best.
> 
> Some people might disagree, but I think it's a good point to at least consider.


It is why Yukon and I don't have the BH yet either. My helper (back in Germany) said we are ready to take the BH but I just don't feel ready yet and Indra is still too young. She's not 15 mo. old yet so we can't take it.


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## JKlatsky

First how old is that video? Are those gunshots in the BH? 

I suppose it depends on HOW you think SchH should be scored. 

Many people get involved with dogs they already have that are probably not suitable for actual competition but it's the dog they have and they are interested. So they train and eventual success in a BH is nice goal. And then they will eventually graduate to a more capable dog. To me the BH is not really a title but rather an entry point into further SchH training. It proves the dog is safe and under control of the handler- pretty? probably not- I think that is part of why the BH is simply a Pass/Fail. This dog would probably never pass a SchH title- and that's OK. People in trial also have to make choices about what they need to do to get their dogs through. You think if I notice my dog's attention is fading I don't start whispering to help him out?? Of Course I do! Do you know how many cues are built into the top level handlers routines? Tons. The only difference is that it is done with so much finesse that you hardly notice. Yes there was a lot of obvious handler help there...but really at that point what do you do? Helping your dog is the fair way to go- to the Dog. 

And trust me. No one, not the people watching, not the judge, probably not even the handler was fooled into thinking that this dog was somehow a top prospect because it managed to squeak by and pass. I knew a lady with a Dobe that went for her BH so many times that she was becoming a name...nice as can be and trained ALL the time. Finally a judge gifted her the BH and even said in the critique that now she could retire the dog. Everyone knew. But personally, I like that feeling of comradery...you knew watching that the routine stunk...but you couldn't help rooting for her and hoping maybe this time she'd actually make it through. 

On the other hand, my personal pet peeve right now is that club level SchH routines are being judged like they are at the BSP. Tell me how a dog can fundamentally complete every exercise and not pass because stylistically it wasn't pretty?? It happens. I've seen dogs receive insufficient on dumbbells when they waited, went out quickly, got the dumbbell and returned quickly to a front sit...but they whined while waiting, regripped the dumbbell, and bumped the handler, and were crooked in their positions. Pretty? No. But a completed exercise? Yes. I think too much emphasis is being placed on perfection. There's a reason for the different levels of competition. Club/Regional/National/World competitors should look different to my mind.

I think this striving for excellence is all fine and good...but realistically, sooner or later...you actually have to trial the dog and it would be nice if it was before the dog was geriatric. People get bogged down in the minutiae.


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## Mrs.K

The video was uploaded last year December. 

I agree, there is too much perfection expected. Like I said, it is not about perfection but following the rules would be nice. I.e I don't care about the focus, he can heel losely but he shouldn't be behind you, he shouldn't go from a sit into the downstay and if you have to help the dog, at least don't do it that obvious. You don't have to be perfect to pass the BH but that wasn't just 'not perfect'... 

Does that make sense?


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## gagsd

Mrs.K said:


> ..... it is not about perfection but following the rules would be nice.


Agreed.


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## clearcreekranch

Mrs. K, what you are saying makes sense to me. Since I am a newbie and I watched my first BH trial recently, I can say that I was disappointed that the judging was not a lot tougher. Sure, I wanted the people I knew to pass, but I also wanted their dogs to be held up to the higher level that I thought we were training for. I do not expect Wolf to pass, if his obedience isn't what it should be to go on to the next level(I will keep training until he gets there). I guess none of this should come as a surprise, since I too have see the horse show world do something similar at different shows. There has been many times that I think that none of the horses in the arena should get a ribbon, never mind the firsts, seconds and thirds that are handed out because "they paid their money to be there".


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> A golden doing the SchH1 has nothing to do with this performance shown in this video.
> 
> The dog was not ready for the BH, plain and simple. Talking, giving hand-signals, clapping is not acceptable. He was behind the handler, not acceptable. He went from sit into down, rolled in the grass which is a fault as well.


Actually it does. Take your arguments you're giving here, and insert them into the Golden thread about the "issue" people had with the Golden's protection performance, and it's basically the exact same argument people were giving for 15 pages straight.


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> Actually it does. Take your arguments you're giving here, and insert them into the Golden thread about the "issue" people had with the Golden's protection performance, and it's basically the exact same argument people were giving for 15 pages straight.


No, it definitely isn't. The rules were more than just bended. She broke the rules by giving hand-signals, clapping and talking to the dog while no rules were broking by the golden! 

The golden is simply participating in a sport and the only thing that is wrong (what people think is wrong) is that he's the wrong breed. 

But no rules were broken. Are you trying to compare every argument to the Golden topic now? This performance is just not good enough to pass the BH, especially since *obvious rules* were broken! 

And if you don't know the rules, look them up. To me, the BH is a little more than just a temperament test, Justine. And too many dogs are given a free pass nowadays, that shouldn't pass. 

Again, it's not about perfection. The Golden wasn't perfect either, but no rules were broken, while in this performance, way to many rules were broken and they simply shouldn't have passed.


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## Mrs.K

And by the way Jack is better than quite a few Shepherds I've seen. 

I've seen a couple of Shepherds at the Greg Doud Workshop that showed worse performance than Jack.


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## holland

The golden is an old thread why even bring it into this one-move on


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> No, it definitely isn't. The rules were more than just bended. She broke the rules by giving hand-signals, clapping and talking to the dog while no rules were broking by the golden!
> 
> The golden is simply participating in a sport and the only thing that is wrong (what people think is wrong) is that he's the wrong breed.
> 
> But no rules were broken. Are you trying to compare every argument to the Golden topic now? This performance is just not good enough to pass the BH, especially since *obvious rules* were broken!
> 
> And if you don't know the rules, look them up. To me, the BH is a little more than just a temperament test, Justine. And too many dogs are given a free pass nowadays, that shouldn't pass.
> 
> Again, it's not about perfection. The Golden wasn't perfect either, but no rules were broken, while in this performance, way to many rules were broken and they simply shouldn't have passed.


I don't remember specifically everything in the golden video. However, a blatent rule violation was committed by the helper in the beginning of his SchH1 video during the bark and hold. Since it was in the first few seconds of the video, it sticks out in my mind. At one point, the Golden stopped barking at which time the helper gave verbal encouragement to the dog and made a slight forward movement with the sleeve to get him to start barking again.

Here are the rules:
1. *"Hold and bark" (examination level 1-3)*
*The helper stands –not visible for handler and dog- with slightly angulated sleeve, motionless and without threatening body posture in the assigned blind. The sleeve serves as body protection. The helper is to watch the dog during the hold and bark. Additional motivation (agitation) as well as help of any kind are not permitted. The helper is to hold the soft stick on his/her side, pointing down. If a dog bothers or grips the helper, the helper may not react with any defensive movements.*
　
a. *When the dog reaches the helper-blind the handler is required to stand still. At this point no further verbal or visual commands are permitted.*
*　*
*　*
a. *Description of the exercise: The dog must confront the helper actively and attentively and bark continuously*

Just calling a spade a spade.

I'm not sure how I'm turning every thread into an argument about the Golden? First time I recall, and the two issues parallel one another IMO.

ETA: I think I also remember her clapping her hands once while he was running the blinds.


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## GSDElsa

holland said:


> The golden is an old thread why even bring it into this one-move on


To point out the rules are allowed to be broken only when you're on the breaker's side


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## Mrs.K

Really Justine? The SchH1 video was a training video, not the SchH1 itself. That's the difference in case you have not noticed. The rules can be broken during the training as we all know but not in the trial. Just for your information


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## GSDElsa

Perhaps I was wrong in my supposition that this was his SchH1 trial video...I remember it sure looking like one.


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> Perhaps I was wrong in my supposition that this was his SchH1 trial video...I remember it sure looking like one.
> YouTube - Dear Jack vom Eifelgestüt SchH1


Because she was training towards the SchH1 but it's not the trial itself. They were going through the routine. A trial looks different. 
Best indication is that there is not a single Judge present plus I talked to Simone, Jacks Handler.

This is what a trial looks like:





see the difference?


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## JKlatsky

Alright. Mrs. K- you asked if I would want a dog passing a BH like that. And my answer to your question would be - Doesn't bother me in the least. They won't be competing with me on a higher level- they are not making SchH more difficult for me- and really I don't see the harm since the judges I have talked to indicated that the BH is, well, "Just the BH". It's not like it's the travesty you see in some of the SchH trials. And it takes courage to even get out there and trial. I think too many people armchair quarterback. 

And as far as the bit with the Golden goes- I do see the parallels and agree that if you're for high standards they have to be imposed across the board but really I think the point has been made and we can probably let that go now and focus more on this specific video that was presented for discussion.


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## GSDElsa

I think the point has been made and we can probably let that go now and focus more on this specific video that was presented for discussion.[/QUOTE]

Agreed


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> I think the point has been made and we can probably let that go now and focus more on this specific video that was presented for discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed
Click to expand...

Especially since it is now *clear *that Jacks video is not a trial video but a training video which makes quite a difference. 
And those that ever took a trial or ever been at one should have actually noticed that from the beginning...so yes I agree as well...


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> Agreed


Especially since it is now *clear *that Jacks video is not a trial video but a training video which makes quite a difference. 
And those that ever took a trial should have actually noticed that from the beginning...[/QUOTE]

Well, since you've never actually trialed in SchH youself 

Actually, I just plain didn't remember. I think I watched the first minute of the video, had seen enough, and that was that. I guess I assumed considering the way she titled the video as "SchH 1" and not thinking much farther than that...usually people title their videos as to what you're watching.


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## GSDElsa

JKlatsky said:


> Alright. Mrs. K- you asked if I would want a dog passing a BH like that. And my answer to your question would be - Doesn't bother me in the least. They won't be competing with me on a higher level- they are not making SchH more difficult for me- and really I don't see the harm since the judges I have talked to indicated that the BH is, well, "Just the BH". It's not like it's the travesty you see in some of the SchH trials. And it takes courage to even get out there and trial. I think too many people armchair quarterback.


And to go farther...since it is pass or fail. What is passing and what is failing? Is it 70 points as if it was a trial? Or 50 because it's a simple pass/fail? Even a judge doing a "fake" mental calculation of all the missed points. OK...few points off for him heeling behind her. Few points off for the clap...few points off for him rolling the grass. You do ONLY need a very sorry performance of a 70 to pass SchH obdedience. Takes a lot of screw ups to get less than that without more difficult things such as the dumbbell retrieve, etc.


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> Especially since it is now *clear *that Jacks video is not a trial video but a training video which makes quite a difference.
> And those that ever took a trial should have actually noticed that from the beginning...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, since you've never actually trialed in SchH youself
> 
> Actually, I just plain didn't remember. I think I watched the first minute of the video, had seen enough, and that was that. I guess I assumed considering the way she titled the video as "SchH 1" and not thinking much farther than that...usually people title their videos as to what you're watching.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter that i did not trial myself. I've seen more trials than most people on this forum. Every single day on the training field, almost every single friggen weekend at a trial for more than ten years... it would be sad if I couldn't differ a trial from a training session. 

It would be sad if I didn't know the west-german bloodlines and big dogs from back then. I grew up with those names. There was no other theme on the dinner table or BBQ. We lived SchH and I know quite a few people personally and ever since I was a child.


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## Smithie86

I have seen multiple levels of BHs done. The focus that has been stated by FCI, SV, USA judges was that the main focus was temperament. There is a minimum scoring that is done. Did the person in the posted video know that this was posted as an example?

And with training, as you are getting ready for trial, you really do not want to do things in training that would not be done in the trial.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Back to the *ORIGINAL* topic of this thread.

If the BH rules say the handler is not allowed to talk to the dog during the test and the handler does - a rule has been broken.

If the BH rules say the dog must maintain a certain position during heeling and the dog does not - a rule has been broken.

Since I didn't watch the video and I don't know how a BH is SCORED then I can't say if the team lost enough points to fail or not.

While it is just a Pass/Fail test there is still scoring involved.


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> And to go farther...since it is pass or fail. What is passing and what is failing? Is it 70 points as if it was a trial? Or 50 because it's a simple pass/fail? Even a judge doing a "fake" mental calculation of all the missed points. OK...few points off for him heeling behind her. Few points off for the clap...few points off for him rolling the grass. You do ONLY need a very sorry performance of a 70 to pass SchH obdedience. Takes a lot of screw ups to get less than that without more difficult things such as the dumbbell retrieve, etc.


They have to have 70% to go into the roadtest. 

You get 15 points for the heeling on the leash, 10 points for the sit, 15 points for the heeling without leash, 10 points for the platz,hier,fuss (re-call), and 10 points for the downstay. For the entire obedience part you can get 60 points. You have to get at least 42 points (70%) to pass the obedience part.


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## carmspack

I guess I have a more generous attitude . What I see is a young lady handler . I see a dog that is under control taking direction from handler , with nerves stable enough to not be bothered by gun fire . The dog is not so much walking "behind" as lagging a few steps . I think the dog is exhausted . Every time he goes to motion from static you can see he is pacing. When he is lagging he is pacing. That is a sign of exhaustion . He is making the effort , after a few steps picks up the speed into a trot. You can see the dog breathing heavy , tongue out, maybe some foamy flecks . Instead of drilling the dog into perfection I would start conditioning him physically , working on some motivation (for this dog) . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## gagsd

A BH is 60 points, and then the traffic portion if dog and handler pass the obedience.

42 out of the 60 points must be earned to pass the obedience.

However, much is at the discretion of the judge.

score sheet


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## carmspack

when you have heat and humidity conditions are close , as if there is not enough oxygen to go around.


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## JKlatsky

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Back to the *ORIGINAL* topic of this thread.
> 
> If the BH rules say the handler is not allowed to talk to the dog during the test and the handler does - a rule has been broken.
> 
> If the BH rules say the dog must maintain a certain position during heeling and the dog does not - a rule has been broken.
> 
> Since I didn't watch the video and I don't know how a BH is SCORED then I can't say if the team lost enough points to fail or not.
> 
> While it is just a Pass/Fail test there is still scoring involved.


Just as a note. SchH has a lot more interpretation in it's judging than say AKC. There is room for a dog to fail an exercise and still pass and there is also room for a judge to penalize a handler for handler help (talking/hand signals, etc.) and still pass the dog. The only broken "rule" I've ever seen actually dismissed was the presence of a reward on the handler during the routine. 

A judge focusing more on the temperament and control of the dog and not necessarily the absolute correctness of the obedience has the room to take maybe 1/2 a point for each instance of obvious handler help- or maybe just 2 points total. It depends on how important he perceives it to be. A judge also has the ability to take 1/2 a point for each crooked sit/basic position in a heeling routine. Consider how many sits there are in a heeling pattern. A judge focused on that can kill your score on an otherwise lovely routine. Much of the scoring is pretty subjective- and of course you NEVER argue with a judge. Most of the SchH competitors I know do try and know their judges.


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> Doesn't matter that i did not trial myself. I've seen more trials than most people on this forum. Every single day on the training field, almost every single friggen weekend at a trial for more than ten years.


And should a temperment test for SchH be so elitist that someone who has been around it that much needs 10-15 years to get a BH on a single dog? I don't think so.


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## Mrs.K

gagsd said:


> A BH is 60 points, and then the traffic portion if dog and handler pass the obedience.
> 
> 42 out of the 60 points must be earned to pass the obedience.
> 
> However, much is at the discretion of the judge.
> 
> score sheet


yes, but there are a couple of things not even a judge can't look away from, especially since that video has been posted publicly on the internet. 

When she put the dog into the sit and walked away and on the way, she came back, the dog went into the down, rubbed and rolled around far enough that she shouldn't have passed that exercise. It's in the rules. He went away from his position for more than one dog length. 

She talked, clapped, gave signals. The overall performance was not good enough to get 42 points. They literally gifted her the BH. 




> when you have heat and humidity conditions are close , as if there is not enough oxygen to go around.


Not a good enough excuse for me. If it is too hot and I have to worry that my dog can't perform, than I don't perform. 



> What I see is a young lady handler . I see a dog that is under control taking direction from handler , with nerves stable enough to not be bothered by gun fire


And what kind of example is setting that? Just because she's a young handler doesn't mean you have to drag her through a trial and gift her the BH when the dog isn't ready. Almost every rule in the book was broken. 

And even young handlers should know that you don't break almost every rule in the book and should learn that if you trial, there are rules to follow and if you don't follow them you don't get the points and possibly fail.


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## gagsd

GSDElsa said:


> And should a temperment test for SchH be so elitist that someone who has been around it that much needs 10-15 years to get a BH on a single dog? I don't think so.


That was somewhat uncalled for, IMO.


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## elisabeth_00117

I have to say, that if Stark performed like that dog did in the video I would not be estatic with his performance but I would surely be proud of him. I wouldn't be totally bothered with it.

Maybe that is my inexperience talking as a handler and "trainer" and the inexperience in the sport/trial world but if I squeaked by with a pass for my BH, hey.. we squeaked by and know what to work on in the future.

Sorry, I don't see what's wrong with this video. Sure there are points to work on and things to improve upon, but who doesn't have things to work on with their dog? training style? handling skills?

JMO.


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## GSDElsa

gagsd said:


> That was somewhat uncalled for, IMO.


I'm trying to make the point that it's a temperment test, not a title where anyone is going to know how well or bad you have done--at what point do you just GO FOR IT just to get the experience and know what to do less or more of the next time?


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> And should a temperment test for SchH be so elitist that someone who has been around it that much needs 10-15 years to get a BH on a single dog? I don't think so.


What are you trying to say Justine?

You don't know anything about my teenage life. When I was 13 years old, I got run over by a car and sat in a wheelchair for more than one year. I underwent surgery and after that I had other things to worry about than titling a dog. Furthermore us kids participated in Horse Shows and later on I participated in Martial Arts, successfully since I was not only the German Vice Champion but also the South German Champion. 

It was a matter of interest and has nothing to do with Schutzhund Elitists. 

I have Yukon for almost two years now and while we are ready for the BH I can't take it. Even if I wanted to take it I couldn't. Not possible without his papers! And Indra is to young. 
I have the statement that he is my dog for the AKC but I still don't have the papers yet.


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## elisabeth_00117

GSDElsa said:


> I'm trying to make the point that it's a temperment test, not a title where anyone is going to know how well or bad you have done--at what point do you just GO FOR IT just to get the experience and know what to do less or more of the next time?


When yous top shaking in your boots and wanting to puke every time your trainer or club members mention signing up... oh wait! That's me!


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## GSDElsa

elisabeth_00117 said:


> When yous top shaking in your boots and wanting to puke every time your trainer or club members mention signing up... oh wait! That's me!


Haha, that's how I feel right now! I was going to do it in May...hmmm...I don't think so! Elsa certainly isn't a star--we're not as bad as the video, though, so we can pass! lol. Actually I was gonig to sign up, but excuses excuses Elsa seems have to backtracked 2 years in OB work since the puppy came--jealousy issues. So now I dont' want to do it unless she gets her act back together, pronto.

When you're a newbie, it definitely is intimidating especially considering how good some of the obedience is on some of the dogs at the club. Kind of make me want to cry myself to sleep at night! :crazy:


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## Whiteshepherds

Whether she passed or failed I thought the handler looked very relaxed and it was nice to see. Sometimes the handlers look so stiff it's distracting....and now back to your debate.


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> What are you trying to say Justine?
> 
> You don't know anything about my teenage life. When I was 13 years old, I got run over by a car and sat in a wheelchair for more than one year. I underwent surgery and after that I had other things to worry about than titling a dog. Furthermore us kids participated in Horse Shows and later on I participated in Martial Arts, successfully since I was not only the German Vice Champion but also the South German Champion.
> 
> It was a matter of interest and has nothing to do with Schutzhund Elitists.
> 
> I have Yukon for almost two years now and while we are ready for the BH I can't take it. Even if I wanted to take it I couldn't. Not possible without his papers! And Indra is to young.
> I have the statement that he is my dog for the AKC but I still don't have the papers yet.


I made that comment because YOU said eariler in the thread you dont' think you and Yukon are ready to take it. I don't think that's it's right that someone who has been around SchH their whole lives should feel that way about a simple BH. Hence the commont about should it be so "elitist" that you don't feel like you can (should?) do it?

Elizabeth and I...our excuse is great (promise...ours is the best!)...we still have that deer in the headlights look on our faces. :rofl:


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> I made that comment because YOU said eariler in the thread you dont' think you and Yukon are ready to take it. I don't think that's it's right that someone who has been around SchH their whole lives should feel that way about a simple BH. Hence the commont about should it be so "elitist" that you don't feel like you can (should?) do it?
> 
> Elizabeth and I...our excuse is great (promise...ours is the best!)...we still have that deer in the headlights look on our faces. :rofl:


No, you don't understand. Being around SchH has nothing to do with me feeling not being ready. I would be ashamed if my dog showed a performance like that and I wouldn't want it gifted to me either. I know when I am good and I know when I am bad. 

Again, it doesn't have to be perfect. I would be okay if he didn't have the focus but I do know when I don't deserve it either.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

Some people prefer to take a test when they KNOW they can ace it - whether it's a test for them or their animal.

Other people will take a test when they think they can PASS.

Another thing to keep in mind - maybe that performance was excellent for *THAT* dog.

One more thing - here in the US many clubs will let a less-than-stellar BH performance slide if they know the dog is not going on any further in the sport.


----------



## Mrs.K

Whiteshepherds said:


> Whether she passed or failed I thought the handler looked very relaxed and it was nice to see. Sometimes the handlers look so stiff it's distracting....and now back to your debate.


That is very true. She looks very relaxed. However, i am not trying to bash the girl. What bothers me is the way you can get through it. It's more about the judging and that a dog, with that kind of performance can get through and pass. 

Again, no "Girl bashing".


----------



## elisabeth_00117

Mrs.K said:


> That is very true. She looks very relaxed. However, i am not trying to bash the girl. What bothers me is the way you can get through it. It's more about the judging and that a dog, with that kind of performance can get through and pass.
> 
> Again, no "Girl bashing".


But you are kinda bashing her.. her hard work with her dog.

Like Lauri said, maybe THAT is as GOOD as it gets for them?

Stark is not a great sport dog and his heeling is well.. less than stellar, he's slow and he lags... THAT video represents what Stark and I would look like on a average training day... hence not wanting to trial even though we could probably pass.

If this was my video I posted and was proud enough to post on the internet, I would feel very hurt that some stranger took it and is using it as this type of example.. just sayn'.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Mrs.K said:


> Again, no "Girl bashing".


Didn't think you were bashing the handler at all, np.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

Mrs.K, you asked the poster this question on her Youtube account:

You﻿ passed the BH like that? ﻿


mrsk2503 5 hours ago

How is that not bashing her? You basically insulted her, the dog, and her work.

I enjoy reading your posts, but lately... wow...


----------



## Whiteshepherds

I thought Mrs. K was trying to make a point. All BH's aren't created equal. 

It's sort of like doctors...one of them got the lowest ranking in the class, but he still got his degree.


----------



## lhczth

JKlatsky said:


> Alright. Mrs. K- you asked if I would want a dog passing a BH like that. And my answer to your question would be - Doesn't bother me in the least. They won't be competing with me on a higher level- they are not making SchH more difficult for me- and really I don't see the harm since the judges I have talked to indicated that the BH is, well, "Just the BH". It's not like it's the travesty you see in some of the SchH trials. And it takes courage to even get out there and trial. I think too many people armchair quarterback.


I agree. It is just a BH. IMO they are a total waste of time and really have served no purpose over the years other than to attempt to appease the anti's. 

I didn't watch the video. I have seen dogs pass that definitely should not have passed due to temperament and didn't agree with that, but have no problems with poor obedience in an otherwise sound dog.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

Whiteshepherds said:


> I thought Mrs. K was trying to make a point. All BH's aren't created equal.
> 
> It's sort of like doctors...one of them got the lowest ranking in the class, but he still got his degree.



I understand the point she was trying to make even though I don't agree... but the comment on the Youtube account that she made? Insulting. If I read that on my account, after working my butt off for months and months and months... I would be heartbroken.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

lhczth said:


> I agree. It is just a BH. IMO they are a total waste of time and really have served no purpose over the years other than to attempt to appease the anti's.
> 
> I didn't watch the video. I have seen dogs pass that definitely should not have passed due to temperament and didn't agree with that, but have no problems with poor obedience in an otherwise sound dog.


This is where I get nervous.. Stark has so-so temperament, he's reactive - better with age, but I know certain things can set him off.. could he pass a BH on a good day? Yes. Should he? Who knows.


----------



## lhczth

I am talking dogs that were so panicked by their handler going out of sight that they paced and had diarrhea. Others that tried to bite the jogger. One dog that ran back to his kennel and still passed.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

Okay, isn't that bad.... lol. Possibly a bark or two for the jogger (still working on it)... lol.


----------



## VomBlack

elisabeth_00117 said:


> When yous top shaking in your boots and wanting to puke every time your trainer or club members mention signing up... oh wait! That's me!


Lol, I can relate.. i'm afraid that even when we're ready i'm going to be so nervous I ruin it for the both of us. Even the CGC made me a little nervous even though I knew there was nothing we really had to worry about. :crazy: Our trainer is saying we should be ready for the BH this summer, and I may just go for it because really what's the worse that can happen? We fail, know what we need to work on and then we're better prepared.


----------



## Mrs.K

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Mrs.K, you asked the poster this question on her Youtube account:
> 
> You﻿ passed the BH like that? ﻿
> 
> 
> mrsk2503 5 hours ago
> 
> How is that not bashing her? You basically insulted her, the dog, and her work.
> 
> I enjoy reading your posts, but lately... wow...


No, it's not insulting, it was made out of sher surprise and seriously, if you put that up in the public, as so many on here have stated over the past year, you have to be able to take critique. If I was insulted anytime anyone critiques me, I'd be sitting in an asylum home. 

There is nothing insulting about my comment.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

This handler did not post this for you to critique. She posted it on her Youtube account for others to view - not to critique. Especially not to bring to a forum and have others critique.

I am not going to get into a "cyber-war" with you over this.

I simply think it was/is rude and uncalled for.


----------



## Fast

lhczth said:


> I am talking dogs that were so panicked by their handler going out of sight that they paced and had diarrhea. Others that tried to bite the jogger. One dog that ran back to his kennel and still passed.


That's a problem with the judge, not the test.


----------



## Mrs.K

elisabeth_00117 said:


> This handler did not post this for you to critique. She posted it on her Youtube account for others to view - not to critique. Especially not to bring to a forum and have others critique.
> 
> I am not going to get into a "cyber-war" with you over this.
> 
> I simply think it was/is rude and uncalled for.


I am not having a cyber-war with you. I am not sure what you think but i am in no way offended or in any way worked up. If yo put something up, you have to live with the fact that others may comment on it. It's public. She may have not put it up for anybody to critique... but how many articles, books, breeders get critiqued on here every single day. Any person that comes on here is critiqued whether they like it or not. If I put a video up I very well know that somebody else may critique it. 

The difference is that I know what my weaknesses are. I know that I am in no way perfect and I know that I would not want to have the BH gifted to me. I rather walk off the field, failing instead of ever getting it handed just because I failed it for the 10th time again. I want to achieve something and not getting it handed or gifted just because somebody feels sorry for me. That would be insulting and no matter how small or insignificant something is, I'd want to earn it.


----------



## Liesje

My dog lagged during his BH and he passed. He was under control. He did all the exercises. He did not show any fear or hesitation, nor distraction, or any aspects of temperament that should disqualify a dog. It was insanely hot and humid. Unlike a lot of SchH people I do not and have never (in any venue) had a "home" field, we had to travel to another state just for a BH so everything was new to both of us. No, it was not pretty but it was passable. I don't lose sleep over it. Last fall we did the FO which is basically a BH for SDA and he did just fine, exactly what I trained for and how I would hope he would trials, so I know we can do it.

Who really cares if the dog in the video passes or not? You do not need to be perfect to pass a BH. Maybe one judge passes and another would have failed it. It makes no difference to me. If the performance in the video is indicative of the dog's usual OB, they will have a lot of work before actual SchH trial but that's up to them, not me. Maybe all she wanted was to simply pass a BH on that dog. Who cares?


----------



## Mrs.K

> Maybe one judge passes and another would have failed it.


And that is exactly what I am talking about. It's completely subjective. It pretty much doesn't matter if it is a BH or a SchH or an Obedience trial. If the Judge likes you, you'll get through. If he doesn't like you, you'll fail and that's not right. People fail trials for less and that is just not right. 

It doesn't matter why you want to pass a BH, at least go by the rules. It doesn't have to be perfect but when almost any rule is broken, you shouldn't pass. That is the bottom line. 

And exactly what can you be proud of if you get it handed or gifted?


----------



## Liesje

I guess it depends on how it's judged. Our judge required a certain score to pass. So at the end he gave each person their critique and score. If you had enough points, you passed. However if you absolutely could not do any exercise, you failed (even if you would have enough points without it). For example, one dog would not do the long down, it got up every time the owner tried to move away. Of all the dogs doing BHs that day, that dog actually had some of the best heeling and overall attitude, but it could not perform the long down exercise.

If the scoring is really an issue, do some research on the judges. If you don't like how a judge scores, don't enter that trial. Happens all the time, not jsut SchH either. I don't show my dogs under judges that are known for only nodding at American line GSDs.


----------



## Catu

I'm with Mr. K here. There should be a minimum required, but I don't know, maybe the girl got the bare minimum to pass acording to the score sheet so for the rules she did, though I'd NOT be proud of the dog.

Now, being Devil's advocate... Diabla has got 96 and 97 points in obedience in different trials, yet in another trial Diabla behaved just like the dog in the video. The reasons... I had a broken teeth and Diabla picked all that pain and stress from me and wanted to be anywhere but in the field... certainly you would not find THAT video of her on YouTube.


----------



## holland

I think when people post videos to you tube -then they are indicating that they are open to comments being made-people often post their good performance-but you don't often see people posting their not so good performances. Think it is great that she did that


----------



## Xeph

> as so many on here have stated over the past year, you have to be able to take critique


"You passed the BH like that?" is not a critique. It's an insult, and a very, very insensitive comment to make.


----------



## Mrs.K

Xeph said:


> "You passed the BH like that?" is not a critique. It's an insult, and a very, very insensitive comment to make.


Than we have to agree to disagree. To me it is a straight forward, valid question and not an insult.


----------



## crackem

I don't care about the BH so much. It's a temperment test and basic obedience. If a dog can lag it's way thru, perform the exercises and shows it is stable, it should pass.

This is the test that anyone with a decent dog with basic obedience should be able to take and pass.

What gets me, is that this is somehow detrimental, yet that video of the golden performing at the level it did was just fine and dandy. If anything, the bh should test what it is supposed to, basic OB and temperment and the actual working trials should still test what they're supposed to.


----------



## Xeph

But you mentioned the word "critique".

Critique: *1. * A critical review or commentary, especially one dealing with works of art or literature.

What you did was not a critique, but if you'd like to keep thinking that, go ahead.



> To me it is a straight forward, valid question and not an insult.


Uh, what about to HER!?


----------



## Mrs.K

Xeph said:


> But you mentioned the word "critique".
> 
> Critique: *1. * A critical review or commentary, especially one dealing with works of art or literature.
> 
> What you did was not a critique, but if you'd like to keep thinking that, go ahead.
> 
> 
> Uh, what about to HER!?


If there is one thing I hate in this world it's people that smile into my face and say how great I did while I know that I sucked! 
If you can't appreciate honesty and appreciate a lie over that because feelings could be hurt than we will probably never be friends because I can't do that. At least you know what to expect. :help:


----------



## Mrs.K

crackem said:


> I don't care about the BH so much. It's a temperment test and basic obedience. If a dog can lag it's way thru, perform the exercises and shows it is stable, it should pass.
> 
> This is the test that anyone with a decent dog with basic obedience should be able to take and pass.
> 
> What gets me, is that this is somehow detrimental, yet that video of the golden performing at the level it did was just fine and dandy. If anything, the bh should test what it is supposed to, basic OB and temperment and the actual working trials should still test what they're supposed to.


Again, the Golden Video was NOT a trial video. It was a TRAINING VIDEO. Big difference between a training video and an actual trial, no matter how trivial the trial is.


----------



## crackem

It's not trivial, it's temperment test and basic obedience test. The dog passed. There was nothing wrong with the test or the performance. It's not a breeding test.


----------



## Vandal

So, if you had posted the trial video and we didn't all break out in simultaneous congratulations you would have been ok with that?

You are somewhat of a study in contradictions. That dog is not a breed commonly seen in SchH, just like a Golden. Shouldn't this handler be congratulated for passing with a breed not suited just like the Golden? She was just enjoying her dog after all.

I am betting the Golden looked better in that training video than in the trial. It's a rare occurrence it works the other way around. So, for me, makes no difference if it was training or the trial. The deficiencies were quite obvious and not something that continued training could fix.


----------



## Xeph

> If there is one thing I hate in this world it's people that smile into my face and say how great I did while I know that I sucked!


NOBODY is saying that it couldn't have been better (depending), but you just don't seem to get it that you offered her NOTHING constructive. Only what is (most likely) a hurtful insult.

You didn't offer suggestions for improvement or tell her what was nice about the routine.

And YOU may hate people that smile in your face when your routine sucked, but not EVERYBODY feels that way. I know if somebody said something like that to me after my performance, and they didn't know me, I would be SUPER upset.



> than we will probably never be friends


Totally ok with that.


----------



## carmspack

Mrs K I made mention of the young ladies youth because you were so critical of her performance and you have had some rather bitter inflammatory statements on the kids or dogs thread where you said you would take kids and drop them off to the pound - not exact words but intentions true . 
Another line of defense that you mentioned many a time in the "golden" thread was so big deal , schutzhund is for pleasure , you like to do it as a hobby , everyone should be accommodated. 
A very direct contradiction to your current sentiments.

I have judged obedience. I take special pleasure in spending time with young kids to encourage them , to get them interested so that we have a next generation that will take over . 
She was young. Possibly her first dog , her first attempt . I don't know the nation that this trial was taking place at but it looked steamy hot and tropical. Maybe schutzhund and trialing is still in its infancy there. Possibly there is a huge learning curve for everyone . You have to nuture interest or it whithers.

The dog clearly was out of condiiton. Your response was that you would , yourself, wait for better conditions , more suitable weather . Wouldn't work for a real working dog -- . Who knows how old the dog was and whether the handler had any guidance in training , and probably no sophisticated training techniques or training DVD's.

This is not shameful or the end of the world. She had a good relationship with her dog. She had poise . The dog was in control . The dog showed he was tired or taxed by the weather . 

PASS. Good luck in your continued training . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## clearcreekranch

elisabeth_00117 said:


> When yous top shaking in your boots and wanting to puke every time your trainer or club members mention signing up... oh wait! That's me!


And me


----------



## Xeph

> And me


I'm there too. I'd actually like to put a BH on a dog, but #1 I'm terrified and #2 I have a very very hard time remembering the pattern. 

I tend to stick with AKC because the pattern is called for me, and thus there's less anxiety involved, which means a better performance out of myself and my dog.


----------



## clearcreekranch

Xeph said:


> I'm there too. I'd actually like to put a BH on a dog, but #1 I'm terrified and #2 I have a very very hard time remembering the pattern.
> 
> I tend to stick with AKC because the pattern is called for me, and thus there's less anxiety involved, which means a better performance out of myself and my dog.


I was hoping that this Schutzhund stuff would make me less nervous about showing my horse, but NOT!

Ok, I have not done my BH with Wolf(maybe next month) and it will be hot and humid and I do know that we will be less than perfect, but we are going for it! But boy, are we NOT going to put it on UTube!

But something that helps with remembering the pattern(at least during training sessions, LOL) is walking it without your dog over and over and walking it in your head before you go to sleep. Cures insomnia.

Now with that said, I am supposed to start doing reining with my horse(which is patterns) and heaven help me, there are 12 patterns and I am not to shy to say it, I AM OLD and I have what my husband calls "old-timers" disease. Can't imagine walking those patterns, but that's what my horse trainer teaches people to do, too.


----------



## Xeph

> is walking it without your dog over and over and walking it in your head before you go to sleep. Cures insomnia.


People tell me that, and I kept doing it, and after over 7 years, I still don't have it, lol.


----------



## clearcreekranch

Xeph said:


> People tell me that, and I kept doing it, and after over 7 years, I still don't have it, lol.


Yea, and what do I know? Haven't actually signed up yet.:crazy:


----------



## elisabeth_00117

We are just starting to see progress with Stark's reactivity (within the last few months) so I don't want to push our luck.

Once I feel comfortable with Stark's behaviour then I think we will be trying for it.. hopefully this summer.

In the mean time, we have our first herding test coming up (HIC), a few rally things coming up as well.. plus we will continue to train in schH.

I'm super nervous for all of those things though!!!


----------



## selzer

I think to post that after watching someone's u-tube is in very poor taste, and maybe even a bit of jealousy.

So, Mrs. K, how many of your own dogs -- not your parents' dogs, but the ones that you have raised and trained on your own, how many of them have you put a BH on? 

I think that it was not a perfect performance, but I am never looking for a perfect performance. I really like getting scores in the ninetys and the higher the better. In obedience I love getting 190, and am certainly ok with scores in the 180s. That would totally embarrass other people. Some people would say that a dog that cannot get at least 190 is not ready. But 170 is passing. A dog that can get a 170 is perfectly ready. 

If you trialed here, and I was in the crowd, and for some reason we were face to face, and your dog sucked in there, I would still say, good going, or nice job if you passed, and if you did not, I would say nice try, don't worry, you'll get there or something else like that. I would not say, Gee your dog sucked, I can't believe you take him out in public. 

Now, if I knew you really well, and I knew you wanted honesty -- not everyone does, then I might provide some Constructive criticism, or some commiseration. 

You can bash people night and day but say something about their dog or their kid or their mother and then the poop will hit the fan. Bashing someone's performance, possibly their first try at this, is completely unthinkable. 

Do you know this person. Do you know that this dog was not rescued, beaten, starved, and shot three times? Do you know that this person did not have to go through extensive socialization to get this dog to ignore people instead of shirk away from them? Do you know that the dog was not rescued from being euthanized in a shelter? Do you know anything about the dog or the handler? 

If someone comes onto the site and says whoo hoo my dog just passed his CGC! Should make the comment, "any dog can pass a CGC, it is a piece of cake"? 

Well, you can make whatever comment you like. It is also ok to say how we feel about that comment. So few people do ANYTHING with their dogs, we do not have to put up our dog-show-snobby (some dog show people are really snobby) noses and chase the away from continuing to work with and test and trial their dog.


----------



## lhczth

Fast said:


> That's a problem with the judge, not the test.


I agree and never said it was a problem with the test (even if I consider it a waste of time).


----------



## lhczth

I have removed the video. The more I thought about it the more I realize that being picked apart on a message board is very unfair to that handler and her dog. 

Please feel free to continue the discussion.


----------



## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> *Mrs K I made mention of the young ladies youth because you were so critical of her performance and you have had some rather bitter inflammatory statements on the kids or dogs thread where you said you would take kids and drop them off to the pound - not exact words but intentions true . *


You didn't take that serious, did you? Everybody on that topic was joking and so was I. You really think I'd take a kid and drop it off the pound? 



> Another line of defense that you mentioned many a time in the "golden" thread was so big deal , schutzhund is for pleasure , you like to do it as a hobby , everyone should be accommodated.
> A very direct contradiction to your current sentiments.


Yes, everybody can give it a shot and if you are good enough to pass than pass, but breaking every rule in the book is a difference. If you have fun doing it, do it but don't expect to pass just because somebody feels sorry for you. 



> I have judged obedience. I take special pleasure in spending time with young kids to encourage them , to get them interested so that we have a next generation that will take over .
> She was young. Possibly her first dog , her first attempt . I don't know the nation that this trial was taking place at but it looked steamy hot and tropical. Maybe schutzhund and trialing is still in its infancy there. Possibly there is a huge learning curve for everyone . You have to nuture interest or it whithers.


No, it's definitely not in infancy over there. I know, my father was there giving Seminars like 18 years ago. Those that do Schutzhund have even more big bucks than in the States. And just somebody is young doesn't mean that you have to get everything handed. What ever happened about truly earning and achieving something? Especially kids have to learn what it means to deserve, earn and achieve something and that life is hard and sometimes even harder and that they should not expect everything to be handed to them. It is what is wrong with our society. Everything feels entitled to everything, and nobody wants to work for it anymore. 



> The dog clearly was out of condiiton. Your response was that you would , yourself, wait for better conditions , more suitable weather . Wouldn't work for a real working dog -- . Who knows how old the dog was and whether the handler had any guidance in training , and probably no sophisticated training techniques or training DVD's.


Very true, but would you let somebody pass the SAR certification if the dog was completely out of condition and would the performance would suck big time and you should actually be disqualified for it? Would you really let me pass? Probably not. And you wouldn't care if I was 15 or 30 years old because it's about saving lifes and not about personal feelings. 


> This is not shameful or the end of the world. She had a good relationship with her dog. She had poise . The dog was in control . The dog showed he was tired or taxed by the weather .


You were the one that said the Golden should do Schutzhund because he lacked everything but yet you'd let a dog pass like that? It's the same contradiction that you guys blame me off, isn't it? 



> PASS. Good luck in your continued training .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> So, if you had posted the trial video and we didn't all break out in simultaneous congratulations you would have been ok with that?
> 
> You are somewhat of a study in contradictions. That dog is not a breed commonly seen in SchH, just like a Golden. Shouldn't this handler be congratulated for passing with a breed not suited just like the Golden? She was just enjoying her dog after all.
> 
> I am betting the Golden looked better in that training video than in the trial. It's a rare occurrence it works the other way around. So, for me, makes no difference if it was training or the trial. The deficiencies were quite obvious and not something that continued training could fix.


First of all, it wasn't SchH, it was the BH that suits any breed. Any dogbreed can get through the BH. There is no protection phase, no tracking, it's basic obedience and is simply an entrance to SchH. In Germany you have to do the BH no matter what route you are going. Doesn't matter if you want to participate in Agility or Obedience, BH is simply a requirement and not only for Schutzhund people. 

Secondly I could say the same thing about you. And while you are betting, you are clearly wrong. Jack is a Star who definitely earned his BH and the SchH1. 

It wasn't earned and if I was one of the people that failed because of less, I'd be beyond pissed.


----------



## Mrs.K

clearcreekranch said:


> I was hoping that this Schutzhund stuff would make me less nervous about showing my horse, but NOT!
> 
> Ok, I have not done my BH with Wolf(maybe next month) and it will be hot and humid and I do know that we will be less than perfect, but we are going for it! But boy, are we NOT going to put it on UTube!
> 
> But something that helps with remembering the pattern(at least during training sessions, LOL) is walking it without your dog over and over and walking it in your head before you go to sleep. Cures insomnia.
> 
> Now with that said, I am supposed to start doing reining with my horse(which is patterns) and heaven help me, there are 12 patterns and I am not to shy to say it, I AM OLD and I have what my husband calls "old-timers" disease. Can't imagine walking those patterns, but that's what my horse trainer teaches people to do, too.



Here is the kicker. I actually did Reining back in Germany and I did the entry level. The easiest pattern that is out there. I had a perfect ride, absolutely perfect, the best one of the day. The Judges actually said that in front of all people, however I was disqualified because I started at the wrong side. So I had a perfect ride but I didn't get a ribbon and that is how it should be. I screwed up and I knew it. 
However, I still placed the fourth rank as an Allrounder because I did good in Trail, Horsemanship and Pleasure.


----------



## Jax08

Thank you, Carmen and Anne, for your knowledgeable evaluation of these videos. It certainly helps people like me to view it openly and fairly.


----------



## cliffson1

Some Judges wouldpass the performance, some Judges would not. I do not view the BH as a competition, I do the Sch titles as a competition. (Hence the P/F as opposed to numerical score). Lastly, in judging you do not view breaking the rules, you look at the exercise and the intent of the exercise and whether the person is doing the exercise and and the degree of completeness in doing it.


----------



## Zahnburg

It is very easy to sit on the sidelines or watch on the computer and criticize someone's performance. It is an entirely different thing to actually be out on the field with your dog, and people who have never been on the field with their dog have no right to say anything to someone who is actually out there doing it.


----------



## Mrs.K

Zahnburg said:


> It is very easy to sit on the sidelines or watch on the computer and criticize someone's performance. It is an entirely different thing to actually be out on the field with your dog, and people who have never been on the field with their dog have no right to say anything to someone who is actually out there doing it.


I am on the field. And we've participated in quite a few trials even without the BH. There is one thing we could do and that was THS at some Clubs. 



 and we've been quite good at it. Don't know if there is something similar in the US. I am not in the Video, it's just an example so you know what I mean since I don't have any idea how you translate that into english and there is no wikipedia entry in english either. Like I said, I have never titled a dog but that doesn't mean I've never participated in a trial.


----------



## Zahnburg

Well where is the video?


----------



## Zahnburg

Of you and your dog


----------



## Samba

Are there guidelines for judging the B and other schutzhund obed? I know about the rules.

I have not often experienced erratic judging in AKC obed. For the most part, i know what is going to be ticked when it comes to points. No extra credit for style either. Is there more latitude per judge in schutzhund?


----------



## Mrs.K

> Of you and your dog


I don't have videos since I didn't have a video camera at that time, I had a "Spiegelreflex Camera" but lost every single picture because my old computer crashed recently and we had to buy a new one. I am just looking through my albums if I actually have some of them online but I deleted my German account. 

I participated in one dog-race where Yukon placed third, one THS match where we place 6th out of 13, another Obstacle match(not Agility), where he went around the tire and we placed 8th out of 10 and the third one I did we placed 4th out of 9.

Oh and the one I did at our own club I was literally disqualified (off the record) because I was late and missed the running part, yet I still participated in the rest of it just for the experience and they let me.


----------



## lhczth

Hard to compare SchH OB and AKC OB. One is strictly about points, the other involves the character of the dog. Yes, the judging in SchH can be subjective. Dogs that show a lot of temperament often will get more points for the same exercise than a dog that is more technically correct, but is lacking in power, drive, temperament, personality, etc.


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## Zahnburg

I hope you have a video camera now as I am sure everyone is anxious to see video of you and your dog when you trial. 

Yes Samba, there are guidelines for the judging. I did a little math and I could see that team making enough to pass.


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## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> *Doesn't matter that i did not trial myself. I've seen more trials than most people on this forum.* Every single day on the training field, almost every single friggen weekend at a trial for more than ten years... it would be sad if I couldn't differ a trial from a training session.


So have you trained and trialed in SchH or not? Your story seems to change to suit you. I seem to remember you saying in the Golden thread that you didn't train in SchH but watched your parents.


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## Jax08

My bad...looking back on previous posts you have consistently said you train in SchH but you don't trial in it.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> So have you trained and trialed in SchH or not? Your story seems to change to suit you. I seem to remember you saying in the Golden thread that you didn't train in SchH but watched your parents.


No, it does not change at all. We've been always there. We've been always with my parents, watching and that never changed. We always watched. We were always with them, doesn't matter if training or trials. Us kids did basic obedience, raised puppies and socialized dogs, which is my specialty and I always said that. That is why I can watch a dog and I know exactly what is done wrong. We've been out at the Kennel every single day. In fact it's been part of our duties to care for, clean the kennels and feed the dogs. Each of us always had a dog but sadly, I always chose those that god sold later down the road (except for Rekja). Yukon is the first dog I was ever allowed to keep out of my parents kennel. 

However, I competed in Horse Shows and Martial Arts. And I always stated that as well. Once I got Yukon I started training with him. We did Obedience, Agility, THS and Schutzhund (which we did as part of his rehabilitation), once he started biting I stopped doing Schutzhund with him but I kept training Zenzy and Indra until my helper retired. 
I trialed a couple of times in THS but never titled him because I don't have his papers. 

Anyhow, since we came to the US we went to the Greg Doud Workshop twice but my main focus is on SAR and I have that stated a dozen of times. If you want to know I am with the Oswego County Search&Rescue Team in New York. In May I am taking the Bill Dotson Seminar, in June I am going to earn my DEC patch and in August I am hoping to title the RH 1 IF we are ready and within the next two years I am hoping to get her certified in Wilderness SAR.


----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> Here is the kicker. I actually did Reining back in Germany and I did the entry level. The easiest pattern that is out there. I had a perfect ride, absolutely perfect, the best one of the day. The Judges actually said that in front of all people, however I was disqualified because I started at the wrong side. So I had a perfect ride but I didn't get a ribbon and that is how it should be. I screwed up and I knew it.
> However, I still placed the fourth rank as an Allrounder because I did good in Trail, Horsemanship and Pleasure.


I know pretty close to zero about schutzhund and the BH. But I know just a little bit about obedience and rally obedience -- yeah "paleez" as some joker put it. But I know that if my dog breaks her stay it is an NQ. It does not matter if we had lost no points the rest of the test. If they break their stay, if the return on recall before I call them, if they will not stand for the exam any or just one, also if they try to bite the judge -- though that might be Excused or Disqualified rather than NQ which means no qualify. 

In rally, if you touch your dog in excellent, if you correct the dog, if you blow by a sign, if the dog leaves the ring, if you pick up the dog, if you have treats on your person NQ -- even during the awards -- NQ. 

We know those rules that will get us NQ'd. It does not matter if the little dog went flawlessly around the ring, if her owner lets her jump into her arms in celebration -- NQ and the crappy looking shepherd that squeaked by with a score of 71 gets a title ribbon. And the dog that had to redo a station gets first place. And it is 100% fair and correct. 

If the BH does not NQ you for letting the dog lag, for extra commands, for rolling over in the stay, I do not know what all the piddling and moaning is all about.


----------



## Jax08

My understanding of the BH is that the AKC equivalent is the CGC, only the BH has to be passed in order to title in SchH. It's not a competition but an evaulation of the temperament of the dog and basic obedience.


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> I know pretty close to zero about schutzhund and the BH. But I know just a little bit about obedience and rally obedience -- yeah "paleez" as some joker put it. But I know that if my dog breaks her stay it is an NQ. It does not matter if we had lost no points the rest of the test. If they break their stay, if the return on recall before I call them, if they will not stand for the exam any or just one, also if they try to bite the judge -- though that might be Excused or Disqualified rather than NQ which means no qualify.
> 
> In rally, if you touch your dog in excellent, if you correct the dog, if you blow by a sign, if the dog leaves the ring, if you pick up the dog, if you have treats on your person NQ -- even during the awards -- NQ.
> 
> We know those rules that will get us NQ'd. It does not matter if the little dog went flawlessly around the ring, if her owner lets her jump into her arms in celebration -- NQ and the crappy looking shepherd that squeaked by with a score of 71 gets a title ribbon. And the dog that had to redo a station gets first place. And it is 100% fair and correct.
> 
> *If the BH does not NQ you for letting the dog lag, for extra commands, for rolling over in the stay, I do not know what all the piddling and moaning is all about.*


What I hate with the BH is that there is too much room. I would much more prefer a system where you exactly know when you fail, as it was stated before by somebody else, with the SV BH you simply don't know if you pass or don't pass once the dog is lacking. 

While the girl passed the BH, I may not pass the BH under a different Judge with the very same performance. And that, in my book, is highly unfair. While the PO states that any rule breaking causes disqualification it also states that it is at the discretion of the Judge. But it doesn't say which rules out the other.


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## Samba

Yes, it is an evaluation, but it has obedience in it and that is evaluated or scored in a way. What does the judging paper for the BH look like? Scores? Pass/Fail? on each exercise?


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## Mrs.K

Samba said:


> Yes, it is an evaluation, but it has obedience in it and that is evaluated or scored in a way. What does the judging paper for the BH look like? Scores? Pass/Fail? on each exercise?


I already wrote that down, all in all you can get 60 points and you have to reach 70 % to be allowed to go to the road test. 

Usually, talking, hand signals and clapping is highly forbidden and leads to disqualification. As a matter of a fact you are supposed to be disqualified since it's considered FAULT and breaking the PO Regs. which was completely and blatantly ignored in this case. She should have never passed the BH like that. Other have been disqualified for much less.


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## Zahnburg

Each exercise has a point value attached to it. I believe for the BH it is 15-15-10-10-10 for the heeling on and off lead, sit in motion, down in motion/recall, long down. However, unlike other venues the judge also accounts for the entire "picture".


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## Mrs.K

Zahnburg said:


> Each exercise has a point value attached to it. I believe for the BH it is 15-15-10-10-10 for the heeling on and off lead, sit in motion, down in motion/recall, long down. However, unlike other venues the judge also accounts for the entire "picture".


Yes, but there are still rules in place where you can lose points and they are written down, it is also written that any fault leads to disqualification, talking, praising, clapping (hand-signals) is one of them.


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## Zahnburg

Mrs.K said:


> Usually, talking, hand signals and clapping is highly forbidden and leads to disqualification.


 While "handler help" is cause for point deduction I believe it is very rare for a team to be outright dismissed for such. I have seen much worse help given, including tugging ears and the like. In fact, even at big trials handlers are often dinged for "handler help", though at those trials of course, it is much more discreet.


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## Mrs.K

Zahnburg said:


> While "handler help" is cause for point deduction I believe it is very rare for a team to be outright dismissed for such. I have seen much worse help given, including tugging ears and the like. In fact, even at big trials handlers are often dinged for "handler help", though at those trials of course, it is much more discreet.


Very true. Which makes me wonder, why are the rules in place if everybody ignores them and you even get away with it while the Judge is watching you...why not getting rid of it completely since it's turned into such a farce.


----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> What I hate with the BH is that there is too much room. I would much more prefer a system where you exactly know when you fail, as it was stated before by somebody else, with the SV BH you simply don't know if you pass or don't pass once the dog is lacking.
> 
> While the girl passed the BH, I may not pass the BH under a different Judge with the very same performance. And that, in my book, is highly unfair. While the PO states that any rule breaking causes disqualification it also states that it is at the discretion of the Judge. But it doesn't say which rules out the other.


Welcome to a human society. 

With the very same credentials one person gets the job, another does not. 

Baseball -- every ump has a different strike zone. So long as he calls it for both sides he is not biased and the pitchers have to adjust. The way it is. A pitcher can walk a bunch of guys under one ump and strike out a bunch under another. 

Football -- some people call pass interference a whole lot differently. 

As for dog shows -- obedience/rally trials. It is points off for lagging, points off for crooked sits, out of position, poor finish, no finish, slow sits, no sit, and so much else. You have to get at least half the points on every exercise and a minimum of 170 out of 200 to pass. One judge might be a stickler for one thing, and another for something else. Someone who has been there for ten years, sitting, and watching and judging themselves could probably get pretty close to the judges number -- especially if they are familiar with the judges judging style. 

Rally is the same, it is a little easier to figure out that you had a really good run or if you are on the edge of NQ. I was NQ'd on points one time. That was really weird because the dog sniffed throughout the exercise. It had been raining good and she was never worked outside before. She did everything -- except lie down in the mud puddle, and we did attempt it, so that should not have been an NQ. I was not expecting a 96, but I was not expecting an NQ. I had never HEARD of a no sniffing rule. But he felt that constituted a lack of team work. That evening, with another judge, and this judge stewarding for her, she had a 96 or 97 and first place. My other puppy took second. 

But the CGC is kind of a gateway into AKC obedience, AKC rally, AKC agility, etc. You must pass all ten tests, true, but there is a LOT of leeway on those tests. I have seen some downright scarey dogs pass. That is a judgement call. We do not NEED a CGC to do any of the above, but it is a good goal and starting place. 

One should not pass the BH or the CGC without doing the minimum or by doing anything that is not allowed like wearing a prong collar. But if people do meet the minimum without doing anything to NQ, the accomplishment might encourage them to continue to train their dog and go on. Making them rigid will separate the men from the boys, but it might also mean fewer paying customers at the trials.


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## KJenkins

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, but there are still rules in place where you can lose points and they are written down, it is also written that any fault leads to disqualification, talking, praising, clapping (hand-signals) is one of them.


 
There is no where in the VDH rules for the BH that it states that any of those will lead to an automatic disqualification. No where. Those are all considered "handler help" and can be pointed off all the way to insufficient but aren't grounds for a DQ. Toys/food on the field, unsportsman like conduct, faulty temperament can and will get you booted.


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## Samba

That is what I was wondering as to how things are scored and what constitutes an outright fail because something disqualifying happened.


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## Mrs.K

KJenkins said:


> There is no where in the VDH rules for the BH that it states that any of those will lead to an automatic disqualification. No where. Those are all considered "handler help" and can be pointed off all the way to insufficient but aren't grounds for a DQ. Toys/food on the field, unsportsman like conduct, faulty temperament can and will get you booted.


----------------------------------------------------------
_Stellt der LR Wesensmängel des Hundes, unsportliches Verhalten des HF (z. B. Alkoholgenuss,
Mitführen von Motiviergegenständen und/oder Futter), *Verstöße gegen die PO*, Verstöße gegen die
Bestimmungen des Tierschutzes oder Verstöße gegen die guten Sitten fest, ist das Team für den
weiteren Prüfungsverlauf zu disqualifizieren._
-------------------------------------------------------------------

When I trained towards the BH, back in Heidelberg, I was trained by a "Leistungsrichter" (Judge) and he, as well as two other Judges (from my club) said that talking, clapping and praising is against regulation and they disqualify anybody that break that rule since it is considered fault.


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## Jax08

Could you please translate that to English?


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## Mrs.K

KJenkins already said most of it what leads to disqualification, however, the one part I put into bold is one of the most important parts. It says "Breaking/Offensing the Regulations". The other, most important part (in my opinion) of all is "Breaking the Animal Protection Law" that also leads to disqualification.


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## KJenkins

Judges are held to the same set of rules as competitors and the handler help itself is not a DQing fault. Now if they decide to be horse's asses they can certainly figure a way to fail you but it will be against the rules to DQ you. There is a big difference between DQing and failing.


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## GSDElsa

Judging is subjective, period. There is no way to change that because humans are scoring. Everyone has a slightly different eye and opinion. Even if all the alleged corruption was not there, you will ALWAYS have a variation in scoring. Nothing is going to change that. And I really don't see anything wrong with it (minus blatent corrupt actions). It's just the way it is. If you don't like it, then competitive sports judged by anything other than time are just not for you, period.


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## Whiteshepherds

Zahnburg said:


> It is very easy to sit on the sidelines or watch on the computer and criticize someone's performance. It is an entirely different thing to actually be out on the field with your dog, *and people who have never been on the field with their dog have no right to say anything to someone who is actually out there doing it*.


So does that mean everyone who posts an opinion has to back it up with their life story and experiences with dogs, complete with video's or pictures to prove that their opinion is valid......or does that just apply to Mrs K?


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## lhczth

Mrs.K said:


> The other, most important part (in my opinion) of all is "Breaking the Animal Protection Law" that also leads to disqualification.


Out of curiosity, what does this have to do with this thread? Was the girl in the video, that was the original topic of this thread, abusing her dog during the BH? Did anyone during the many pages of discussion promote ignoring abuse during the BH?


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## holland

Zahnburg said:


> It is very easy to sit on the sidelines or watch on the computer and criticize someone's performance. It is an entirely different thing to actually be out on the field with your dog, and people who have never been on the field with their dog have no right to say anything to someone who is actually out there doing it.


 
I don't really get this statement because that also means that when you post your video of yourself and your dog at an event doing well the people on this board who have enever done schutzhund have no right to say hey that looks great?-Whether people have a right to or not if you are training in public people are going to express opinions


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## selzer

Whiteshepherds said:


> So does that mean everyone who posts an opinion has to back it up with their life story and experiences with dogs, complete with video's or pictures to prove that their opinion is valid......or does that just apply to Mrs K?


It is the internet. People with no experience post all the time about things. And others can ask them to provide their basis on what they are saying. It IS a whole lot easier to sit on the sidelines and criticize others. Until you have actually done something, yes post, ask questions, give encouragement, but don't post on someone's u-tube "_THAT _Qualified???" or whatever. 

Oh for Pete's sake, I have put CGCs on ten dogs and have seen some REALLY questionable, even scary dogs pass, and I would NEVER have said that to someone, especially someone I did not know.


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## clearcreekranch

Wow, Mrs. K. Good for you on the reining. I will be going from Western Pleasure to the reining withing the next year or so............don't know what my memory will be like then. LOL


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## cbradshaw

I am looking for someone training the AD in Muskegon Michigan Area!! Do you know anyone?
Would like to find someone to train with willing to travel up to 50 miles.


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## Zahnburg

Whiteshepherds said:


> So does that mean everyone who posts an opinion has to back it up with their life story and experiences with dogs, complete with video's or pictures to prove that their opinion is valid......or does that just apply to Mrs K?


 I think you are missing the point. I get very angry with people doing stuff like what has happened in this thread. 
This is an inexperienced handler, she is not giving seminars, she is not charging people to train with her, she is just a normal person who took the time and effort to train her dog then had the guts to go out on the field and show everyone the results of that hard work.
That field is one of the most lonely and intimidating places to be, it is only you and your dog, no one can help you and everyone is watching your every move. Not just watching but judging. 
It infuriates me that someone would have audacity to sit in their living room and bad-mouth the effort that this team put forth, particularly when the individual doing so has never even done a BH. 
If people think they can do so much better then step away from the keyboard, train your dog, then lets see the video of your trial so that people who have no idea the effort that you have put into the dog can rip you apart. Until then, don't bad-mouth the performance of other people.


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## Zahnburg

holland said:


> I don't really get this statement because that also means that when you post your video of yourself and your dog at an event doing well the people on this board who have enever done schutzhund have no right to say hey that looks great?-Whether people have a right to or not if you are training in public people are going to express opinions


Holland, 

It seems that you don't get a lot of things. As for my videos, people can say whatever they want to. I do not post them to get a pat on the back or boast, I do not post them for people to rip apart my training, I post them because I am proud of my dog and what we have accomplished as a team. The same way that I am sure the girl in the video is proud of what she and her dog accomplished as a team.


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## Jax08

:thumbup: Art!


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## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> When I trained towards the BH, back in Heidelberg, I was trained by a "Leistungsrichter" (Judge) and he, as well as two other Judges (from my club) said that talking, clapping and praising is against regulation and they disqualify anybody that break that rule since it is considered fault.


Great, so when your club is going to have a trial and you want to do your BH you know what judge(s) to invite if you want it scored a certain way.

I don't care what any judge says I will praise my dog if and when I see fit. You can praise your dog during a SchH trial anyway. There are often times I'm on the field or on a course and I have to choose between points or correcting/praising my dog. I'll correct my dog if I need to rather than let him get away with crap and hope it costs me less points. People do this stuff all the time, not just BHs and not just SchH. If you don't like it, then you are free to train and handle your dogs as you see fit and hire whatever judges you like to score the way you want to be scored.

I agree with Art and I hope we can all put as much time and thought into TRAINING our dogs than we have into this thread!


----------



## Samba

So you can do handler help like correct and praise in SchH and it is just points off?

Oh me, so used to AKC where such a thing would NQ one and possibly end the performance for that day.


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## Jason L

Liesje said:


> I agree with Art and I hope we can all put as much time and thought into TRAINING our dogs than we have into this thread!


Seriously! This is not even one of "our" dogs that we are talking about! I also agree with everything Art wrote in this thread.


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## KJenkins

Once you start with verbal corrections you are on thin ice...grab a collar except holding for the long bite and you're probably dismissed.


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## Jason L

You can always give an extra command (in your "don't mess with me" voice) and just take your points there. You can't touch the dog.


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## GSD07

I think Art summarized it perfectly, nothing to add. Mrs.K, it's time to stop piggybacking your parents' experience and start accumulating your own.


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## Mrs.K

GSD07 said:


> I think Art summarized it perfectly, nothing to add. Mrs.K, it's time to stop piggybacking your parents' experience and start accumulating your own.


It is NOT my parents experience. It is my OWN experience. Big difference. I have learned via my parents. But what I see and know is my very own experience and has nothing to do with my parents! 


> I think you are missing the point. I get very angry with people doing stuff like what has happened in this thread.
> This is an inexperienced handler, she is not giving seminars, she is not charging people to train with her, she is just a normal person who took the time and effort to train her dog then had the guts to go out on the field and show everyone the results of that hard work.
> That field is one of the most lonely and intimidating places to be, it is only you and your dog, no one can help you and everyone is watching your every move. Not just watching but judging.
> It infuriates me that someone would have audacity to sit in their living room and bad-mouth the effort that this team put forth, particularly when the individual doing so has never even done a BH.
> If people think they can do so much better then step away from the keyboard, train your dog, then lets see the video of your trial so that people who have no idea the effort that you have put into the dog can rip you apart. Until then, don't bad-mouth the performance of other people.


But she still shouldn't have passed. Just because you have the guts and are inexperienced doesn't mean you have to have it gifted or handed for FREE! And that WAS for free. 



> Great, so when your club is going to have a trial and you want to do your BH you know what judge(s) to invite if you want it scored a certain way.


I DO NOT and NEVER will invite a Judge. That is NOT my job. Furthermore, I would want to be treated fairly. If I screw up, I deserve to lose points or to be disqualified. Period!
I do not want to have anything gifted to me. Especially not with a performance like that.


----------



## Mrs.K

lhczth said:


> Out of curiosity, what does this have to do with this thread? Was the girl in the video, that was the original topic of this thread, abusing her dog during the BH? Did anyone during the many pages of discussion promote ignoring abuse during the BH?


No, it's part of the rules. People asked about the rules and that I translate what was said so I did.


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## GSD07

Mrs.K said:


> But what I see and know is my very own experience and has nothing to do with my parents!


 This is very true, it's obvious to everyone here and I'm glad you finally start realizing that. So stop mentioning your parents every other thread, pick your stuff, go on the field and prove through your hard work that your opinion is worth to take a second look at. Just like the person from the original video did.


----------



## Chris Wild

I've seen some freebie BHs essentially given as gifts. That was NOT one of those.

Was it a great performance? No. But it was within passing. 

The BH is not a test of working temperament, it is a test of basic temperament designed to be suitable for any breed, doing any activity. The dog showed sufficient temperament to pass.

It is also not a test of competition level training. It is a test of basic obedience and control. And again, that dog showed sufficient control and basic obedience to pass.

As far as the handler help, this is not a DQing violation in any way. I don't know what set of rules someone is reading if they think that clapping, extra commands, and encouragement to the dog should automatically result in dismissal and failure. But this is not anywhere in any set of rules for the BH. Nor is it judged in that manner. Each handler help results in point loss. How many points depends on the judge, and also on the level. It's going to be much more heavily penalized on a SchH title than a BH, as it should be. Even on the BH, enough of it could point one down to below the minimum needed to pass and lead to a failure. But that was not the case here, nor should it have been. 

The dog and handler deserved to pass. Simple as that.


----------



## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> I DO NOT and NEVER will invite a Judge. That is NOT my job.


OK, maybe not your job specifically but someone in your club has to do it and if it is a big deal to you, you can probably be part of that decision. When the club gets ready to plan a trial, why invite a judge you don't like or don't agree with?

I've seen a judge award a BH to a dog that on the recall tucked its tail and ran off the field to its vehicle. I won't let any club I'm in invite that judge, but I'm not on here starting threads about that dog and posting his/her videos.


----------



## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> OK, maybe not your job specifically but someone in your club has to do it and if it is a big deal to you, you can probably be part of that decision. When the club gets ready to plan a trial, why invite a judge you don't like or don't agree with?




Nope, I don't care which judge is there. Would you be part of that decision if your club was to set up a trial? I wouldn't. I wouldn't even be asked and trust me, if one of my fellow club members was the judge, they would have judged me harder than anybody else. They already made up their mind about Yukon, already wrote him off. I would have never passed if I hadn't showed an exceptional performance. 

7 out of 10 members were actually Judges at my club. My training director used to be the Teamleader of the World Championship team. They gave every new person the hardest time and you had to work hard to earn their respect. Those guys have been doing this for so long that I wasn't even born when they already were trialing. 



> I've seen a judge award a BH to a dog that on the recall tucked its tail and ran off the field to its vehicle. I won't let any club I'm in invite that judge, but I'm not on here starting threads about that dog and posting his/her videos.


Did not deserve the BH either. It is what it is. If the performance sucks, than you shouldn't be gifted with something that you did not earn. 

Everybody has a shot, but you should earn it. 
Heck, if I sucked, I wouldn't deserve it either. Doesn't matter if she's doing it in our own backyard. Or even if she just had a bad day and the judge knows that she's usually doing great, if I suck, I suck... and I have to keep training until I earned it. 

It doesn't have to be perfect but a dog running back to a car with a tucked in tail is even worse than a dog rolling in the grass. 



> This is very true, it's obvious to everyone here and I'm glad you finally start realizing that. So stop mentioning your parents every other thread, pick your stuff, go on the field and prove through your hard work that your opinion is worth to take a second look at. Just like the person from the original video did.


Yes, and if I wasn't asked every time I give my opinion why I know all these things, even though I've been saying it a thousand times over and over an over again to the very same person, I did not have to bring it up!
That is what is pissing me off. She's accusing me that my story changes every time but it doesn't and I shouldn't have to explain myself to the very same person, every single frickin time and from now on, I will simply ignore people like that.


----------



## Andy Deitz

I've read all fourteen pages here, but have not seen the video. Could someone pm a link or something. I'm curious to see it now after the long long read...


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## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> Nope, I don't care which judge is there. Would you be part of that decision if your club was to set up a trial? I wouldn't. I wouldn't even be asked and trust me, if one of my fellow club members was the judge, they would have judged me harder than anybody else.


I would hope I'd be asked and if I wasn't I'd probably find another club. Not that it matters all that much to me (but I didn't start a thread about it....) but when we do the SDA and/or USA affiliation, eventually we will be required to hold trials which means invite judges and everyone's input is valued and considered. I wouldn't spend the time and effort on a club that didn't care what I thought and wrote off my dogs even if every single member was a judge.


----------



## selzer

I am a newbie in my club, only been a member for about three years. But we send a list of judges and all members vote on the judges that can be asked for our shows. We have a couple of judges as members and a whole lot of those people were doing this for decades, some for longer that I have been around. 

While I have seen some questionable performances, I can accept that that is a judgement call. Wow, they made up a word just for this purpose -- never hit me before. 

The idea that your club would judge you harsher than other people in the trial is a problem in my opinion. Judging should be impartial. Yes, sometimes judges will be a little more lenient for one reason or another, but the idea that judging would be harder on you because of personalities, prejudices, being new whatever. 

I have heard two things, one that you said the judges in your previous experience would have NQd or DQd for handler help, etc., and the other that the judges in your current club would judge you harsher than others, also that your trainer said the dog was ready, but you did not think so, and that you feel your club has already written off your dog -- well, this suggests that you seem to be either afraid of judging, or maybe you feel they have some reason to hold such prejudices.

I would not stay in any club that acted that way. Clubs NEED membership. They need dues and show entrance fees. They need new blood and young people for volunteers etc. So for a club to act that way to new people is suicidal, and certainly not healthy. 

Families are not the only organizations that can be dysfunctional. Churches can be. Clubs can be. Sticking with a dysfunctional family is understandable. Sticking with a dysfunctional club is crazy. This is SUPPOSED to be something you LIKE. If it is not, something is wrong.


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## cliffson1

Isn't it curious that the people who have titled dogs in BH, Sch1,2,3 mainly say it was a passing exercise, albeit not great, and the people saying it shouldn't pass in many cases haven't done one, much less the other Sch titles. Another example of two different "type" of opinions!


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## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, and if I wasn't asked every time I give my opinion why I know all these things, even though I've been saying it a thousand times over and over an over again to the very same person, I did not have to bring it up!
> That is what is pissing me off. She's accusing me that my story changes every time but it doesn't and I shouldn't have to explain myself to the very same person, every single frickin time and from now on, I will simply ignore people like that.


Yep...I do keep asking you and you still keep missing the point. The same point Anne and Oksana made quite bluntly to you. And to be quite honest, part of the reason I ask is you just aren't that important to me so I don't remember what you've said in the past. 

And apparently you need to read a bit closer because I also posted the below because it was to late to edit my post when I asked you what your experience was..



> My bad...looking back on previous posts you have consistently said you train in SchH but you don't trial in it.


You seem to post a lot about all you "know" and feel free to insult people but when it's turned back on you, you play the innocent and the victim. Since you've joined this SAR club, you suddenly are an expert on everything based on what your parents know. You bring up your parents any time you are challenged by anyone...not just me...

Well...my dad was a plumber. Doesn't mean I can fix a toilet. 

You ARE doing to others the same thing that you claim is being done to you. Evaluate your own actions. And I know...you'll say "I could say the same about you.." That is a standard line in your posts but I"m not the one on here ripping people apart for attempting something I've never done.


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Yep...I do keep asking you and you still keep missing the point. The same point Anne and Oksana made quite bluntly to you. And to be quite honest, part of the reason I ask is you just aren't that important to me so I don't remember what you've said in the past.
> 
> And apparently you need to read a bit closer because I also posted the below because it was to late to edit my post when I asked you what your experience was..
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to post a lot about all you "know" and feel free to insult people but when it's turned back on you, you play the innocent and the victim. Since you've joined this SAR club, you suddenly are an expert on everything based on what your parents know. You bring up your parents any time you are challenged by anyone...not just me...
> 
> Well...my dad was a plumber. Doesn't mean I can fix a toilet.
> 
> You ARE doing to others the same thing that you claim is being done to you. Evaluate your own actions. And I know...you'll say "I could say the same about you.." That is a standard line in your posts but I"m not the one on here ripping people apart for attempting something I've never done.



Maybe if you had spent ten years watching your dad fixing those toiletts you knew a little bit about it. And that is exactly what I've been doing, and guess what, it pays off. If you watch for so long and you don't learn anything out of it... that would be kind of sad...even if you watch a TV documentary about rome, you learn something and that becomes YOUR knowledge! But hey, I am getting tired trying to explain how learning works and that you can actually learn something by watching somebody else doing it or why do you think so many people go to Seminars and Work Shops WITHOUT a dog and just watch. They even pay money to listen and watch. I had it for free. SAME FRICKIN CONCEPT!

And no, it is not insulting, it's straight forward, something we are known for. It is why many people think we are so rude, because we are blunt, don't hold back and say it how it is instead of smiling into your face while I know it sucked. That is insulting and playing a false game. 

Insulting would be if I said that you couldn't train a dog for #$%^ and need to go away. However, what I am saying is that the performance sucks, keep training and come back once you are ready and earn it. 

My fellow team-mate feels the same way. She watched the video and had the same opinion that she shouldn't have passed. So it is not just me. 

And if you can't remember what I've been saying for like the 20'st time "because I am not "that important", just put me on your ignore list. From now on I won't explain anything, anymore to you. 

Doesn't matter what I say, which topic it is, you are going to find anything to nitpick about. Let's just say how it is. I don't like you, you don't like me. If that is insulting or offensive to you, so be it. I don't care what you think anymore! You are just as bad as I am... for that matter. You accuse me of being insulting but I could say the same about you. But lets just say that you are just not "important enough to me" to actually worry about it. 

And with that, write what you want... doesn't bother me a bit anymore....


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## Mrs.K

> You ARE doing to others the same thing that you claim is being done to you. Evaluate your own actions. And I know...you'll say "I could say the same about you.."


So I am important enough that yo remember that but you can't remember me saying that I've been watching it all my life, training but not titling my dogs? Oh well... not even going there... 

Have a good life Jax...


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## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> Isn't it curious that the people who have titled dogs in BH, Sch1,2,3 mainly say it was a passing exercise, albeit not great, and the people saying it shouldn't pass in many cases haven't done one, much less the other Sch titles. Another example of two different "type" of opinions!


:rofl: :thumbup:


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## lhczth

If one does not like how the judging is being conducted than the best thing for them to do is get out on the field, title some dogs, meet the criteria and then become a judge themselves.


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## Mrs.K

lhczth said:


> If one does not like how the judging is being conducted than the best thing for them to do is get out on the field, title some dogs, meet the criteria and then become a judge themselves.


Nah, I won't ever become a Judge. I know to much about the SV as I would ever become involved with their politics. And I won't be a member of the SV as well because I do not support their politics but rather the people that got screwed over big time. The SV is losing more and more of their members because of the politics and people go different venues. Just take a good look at all those clubs. More than 5 Clubs in one town, but only three or four active members per club, IF they have that many active members at all... that speaks a powerful language. 

However, freedom of speech allows me to voice my opinion about anything and everything. If you don't like it, don't read it.


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## lhczth

Yup, in this country you are free to speak your mind on message boards and accomplish nothing or you can go out and actually make an effort to change what you do not like.  One is easy. The other not always so.


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## crackem

and again, the BH is used to show that a dog has an ok temperment and basic obedience. it's not a breed test, it's pass/fail.

Most dogs that show a decent relationship with the owner, have a decent temperment and can perform the exercises without touched and pushed into position, it's going to pass.

and Cliff, awesome post. I too wonder why it is that those that have titled from BH on up and some of us in multiple venues can recognize that it was a passing bh routine. Not one I would show with, but none the less, passing. But why do those that have never done any of it have such a strong opinion? It's not that hard to just send in a registration and go do one.


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## Mrs.K

lhczth said:


> Yup, in this country you are free to speak your mind on message boards and accomplish nothing or you can go out and actually make an effort to change what you do not like.  One is easy. The other not always so.


Yeah, but for that I am sitting in the wrong country. Plus my heart is with SAR and that is what I am planning to make a difference but that doesn't mean that I can't voice my opinion on something that is so blatantly obvious like that. 
And even if I wanted to, I just don't have the time to do it. Can't be in two spots at the same time. I rather spend the time training my dogs towards certification.


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## Mrs.K

crackem said:


> and again, the BH is used to show that a dog has an ok temperment and basic obedience. it's not a breed test, it's pass/fail.
> 
> Most dogs that show a decent relationship with the owner, have a decent temperment and can perform the exercises without touched and pushed into position, it's going to pass.
> 
> and Cliff, awesome post. I too wonder why it is that those that have titled from BH on up and some of us in multiple venues can recognize that it was a passing bh routine. Not one I would show with, but none the less, passing. But why do those that have never done any of it have such a strong opinion? It's not that hard to just send in a registration and go do one.


I know quite a few people that have done the BH and much more on top of that, that would have never let that dog pass. 
As a matter of a fact, I know a Judge (my old helper that retired last June) who failed an entire club because they were not ready and he had no problem in doing so. He was a very hard but fair Judge.


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## Liesje

crackem said:


> and again, the BH is used to show that a dog has an ok temperment and basic obedience. it's not a breed test, it's pass/fail.
> 
> Most dogs that show a decent relationship with the owner, have a decent temperment and can perform the exercises without touched and pushed into position, it's going to pass.
> 
> and Cliff, awesome post. I too wonder why it is that those that have titled from BH on up and some of us in multiple venues can recognize that it was a passing bh routine. Not one I would show with, but none the less, passing. But why do those that have never done any of it have such a strong opinion? It's not that hard to just send in a registration and go do one.


I agree and to me it's important to remember that it's a non-traditional breed and maybe even on its best day is not going to look like a well bred GSD from a top trainer/competitor. I would not want to show my GSDs like that but my mutt Coke? Heck I'd probably crap myself if he did THAT good, lol. If there was any chance he could pass a BH, even just squeak by, sure I'd do it with him and be happy with a performance like that. It would be a big accomplishment for him. But it's comparing well-bred GSDs to an unidentifiable mutt who is the antithesis of "intensity" and "drive".

I've only done one BH and it was all GSDs but I've done multiple FOs (like SDA version of BH) and in the SDA trials I've been in or observed, it was more common to see random breeds of dogs. I've even seen a breed I didn't even know existed until we checked in for trial (Caucasian shepherd I think he was). On of the nicest FO performances I've seen was a Malamute. There should always be some element of keeping in mind the breed and the standard and what the judge can expect to see from that dog.


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