# Your thoughts on raising a working GSD.



## SystemCritical (Nov 30, 2011)

If anyone has followed. I have a 14 week old male GSD. He is a blend of Czech working line and American show line. He physique and drive lean more toward working than anything else. I am no expert when it comes to GSDs. I am having him evaluated for PSA/Schutzhund work today. When we bought him the breeder even said he was geared toward “work” and he was going to be a handful, so we were aware of that.

Here is where it gets tricky. We had been putting too much pressure on him and we started seeing a negative effect. In the last week we stopped all correction and he has really turned it around. He is full of life again, bouncing, playing, serious drive, and confidence, but it’s like living with a dang snapping turtle! I understand the concept of not correcting for biting and +R for good behavior but my wife and daughter are not happy and are questioning this method. When he is with me it is more work oriented and I can redirect his drive. Granted he still gets me every now and then when we are roughhousing but for the most part I can stay one step ahead of him. My family on the other hand want to be a little more lovey-dovey and they are catching the brunt of his mouthiness. Well heck, as you all know if you sit cross-legged on the floor in shorts and no shoes on your asking for it. My wife is still very supportive and being open minded but I understand her concerns. I just wish I had some answers for her. Will this subside with training? When do we introduce pressure and correction? Hopefully tonight’s visit will get some questions answered and quench some of her concerns.


Oh and before anyone chimes in on obedience. We work on obedience three times a day for about 10-15 min and he does well. He’s just a snappy little buggar….


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

SystemCritical said:


> Granted he still gets me every now and then when we are *roughhousing* but for the most part I can stay one step ahead of him. My family on the other hand want to be a little more lovey-dovey and they are catching the brunt of his mouthiness.


My first thing is STOP the roughhousing - you are teaching him its ok to put his mouth on you in that way. He needs to learn that when you play it is with a tug/ball/rag, and that is all he is allowed to put his mouth on - not skin.

You can teach your wife and daughter both how to play tug with him, then they can redirect him too. Make up 10 or so toys, by attaching a dish towel (long one for drying) to a rope or a leash and leave them all around your house, and everyone should have one when interacting with the puppy.

Also, if this is going to be a working dog/family pet you are going to have to have a LOT more control of this pup. That means controlling his environment to avoid ever having to correct him. If he does something out of line, technically its your fault for not managing him better. My pups have VERY limited access to my child when they get home and for the better part of the first year. In that time I teach them where their mouth is allowed, no jumping, manners, etc. The only interaction is my pup on a leash with my holding it and my son either walking with us, or petting him. 

When the pup is in the house, I have him follow me around on a leash and do my marker training for the "leave it" command around my son. Once they get this command, they can be neutral around my son (meaning they choose not to interract) then they can have more access during play sessions, he can start playing fetch with them, or getting them to dig the sand at the park(I love hearing my son say "Dig", then laugh his head off when the dogs literally sit there digging to China:wild.


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## SystemCritical (Nov 30, 2011)

N Smith said:


> My first thing is STOP the roughhousing - you are teaching him its ok to put his mouth on you in that way. He needs to learn that when you play it is with a tug/ball/rag, and that is all he is allowed to put his mouth on - not skin.
> 
> You can teach your wife and daughter both how to play tug with him, then they can redirect him too. Make up 10 or so toys, by attaching a dish towel (long one for drying) to a rope or a leash and leave them all around your house, and everyone should have one when interacting with the puppy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input!!!!

Well we do most of that now, or at least I do. I just have to get the family more in the game. He only is out of his kennel when he is either training or can be 100% supervised. He pretty much stays engaged with his toys and tugs at this point and doesn’t get into too much trouble. I don’t leash him to me because he pretty much stays with me all the time. If I leave to another part of the house he typically follows and if he doesn’t I call him which is reinforcing recall. He’s pretty good with that too.

As far as the roughhousing goes, let me clarify. When I do this I have a tug or ball and make sure he hits on that. Sometimes he just misses as all pups do. Where I am confused is if we are teaching him not to put his mouth on skin then wouldn’t a correction of some sort make sense? I mean, from a dogs standpoint, aren’t we reinforcing it by giving him a tug or toy without any correction? Let’s see, I bite Dad’s arm, and I get a tug….. sweet, I’ll do it again.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

SystemCritical said:


> Thanks for the input!!!!
> 
> Well we do most of that now, or at least I do. I just have to get the family more in the game. He only is out of his kennel when he is either training or can be 100% supervised. He pretty much stays engaged with his toys and tugs at this point and doesn’t get into too much trouble. I don’t leash him to me because he pretty much stays with me all the time. If I leave to another part of the house he typically follows and if he doesn’t I call him which is reinforcing recall. He’s pretty good with that too.
> 
> As far as the roughhousing goes, let me clarify. When I do this I have a tug or ball and make sure he hits on that. Sometimes he just misses as all pups do. Where I am confused is if we are teaching him not to put his mouth on skin then wouldn’t a correction of some sort make sense? I mean, from a dogs standpoint, aren’t we reinforcing it by giving him a tug or toy without any correction? Let’s see, I bite Dad’s arm, and I get a tug….. sweet, I’ll do it again.


I can see why you would think that. It's supposed to be "I bite Dads' arm, WRONG ... I bite on tug, RIGHT." Use very negative vibes when he is wrong and very positive ones when he is right.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Eventually, with a bazillion repetitions, his little brain will be re-programmed to redirect to a toy. He'll get to the point that if he wants to play and engage, he will pick up a toy and bring it to you.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

You will quickly find that the most fair, and easy way to train a dog is to set them up to succeed. Its smooth sailing from there really. The better you are at setting them up to succeed the faster they will be trained and actually the better the understanding your dog has of whats expected. they will also have more reliable obedience and behavior because they stop trying other things.

Dogs do what WORKS for them. If biting you and ripping your arms of your family members apart gets him fun & attention then hes going to keep trying it. 

You don't even have to correct. Just make it stop working. 

If your puppy is that sensitive to corrections that it shuts him down, then you need to keep this in mind when you are training with him in the future. Serious corrections won't be necessary, positive reinforcement will be your main driver. You just have to get the hang of molding your dog and shaping the behaviors you want to erase the bad ones, instead of correcting the bad ones.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

SystemCritical said:


> He is a blend of Czech working line and American show line.




??? 

Did the breeder have a reason for mixing these two bloodlines? 




> My family on the other hand want to be a little more lovey-dovey and they are catching the brunt of his mouthiness.





>


It's nearly impossible to be lovey-dovey with a drivey GSD pup! All the pups I've raised have gone through a phase where you can't even touch them without being bitten. Thankfully they grow out of this, but the family needs to understand that unless the puppy is asleep, it's going to be a while before they can pet and love on him without getting mauled. Right now it's all about keeping yourself armed with a toy or tug at all times, in order to re-direct his snapping little teeth.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

You know I really don't mind them biting me or rough housing. Its not like we are going to have issues with pack order from it. I have a 13 week old right now who has no problems taking full mouth bites on my forearm. They grow out of it.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Ace952 said:


> You know I really don't mind them biting me or rough housing. Its not like we are going to have issues with pack order from it. I have a 13 week old right now who has no problems taking full mouth bites on my forearm. They grow out of it.


Oh I agree completely. I let my puppies bite all over me. I teach them how to fight me this way so when they are adults and they are biting sleeves they know how to counter, buck back, thrash and fight as much as they can so they can win. 


I don't have kids so I can get away with this.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I do have a "kid" around....and we still have it happen. (nipping or biting on appendages or clothing).
Poor Michael!....happily...he just says "no puppy"....and walks away...or grabs a toy and throws it for them.....no one is *mauling* the child.
*They do grow out of this stage*


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## SystemCritical (Nov 30, 2011)

Freestep said:


> ???
> 
> Did the breeder have a reason for mixing these two bloodlines?


 

This could be a whole new thread. My breeder has 25 years of experience and DNA tests all his dogs. He is blending the lines to work back towards the original GSD conformation, temperament, lifespan, etc. He has taken criticism for doing this but I believe his theory is sound. The original breed was split into distinct lines from what I have read and although they have specific traits and uses I liked the idea of having a more well-rounded GSD. I have talked to a few other owners of his dogs and they are very happy.

It all makes sense to me and I may take some flak for it but that’s ok. I didn’t want a show line that had no backbone if it came to it yet I didn’t want a dog with so much drive that he couldn’t be a family pet. I think I found the right breeder for what I wanted. Only time and training will tell.


Overall I think he is going to be great and my wife thinks so too. Just have to get everyone on the same page and get some professional training started.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

SystemCritical said:


> This could be a whole new thread. My breeder has 25 years of experience and DNA tests all his dogs. He is blending the lines to work back towards the original GSD conformation, temperament, lifespan, etc.


I take it he raises American show lines, and is trying to toughen them up a bit? Interesting theory, doesn't always work in practice... what is your dog's pedigree? Perhaps those with better knowledge of bloodlines can comment.

I would be worried about nerve strength in such a cross.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

If he has been doing this for 25 years, I would imagine your breeder would already have a line developed that he wouldn't be doing immediate Czech to American Showline crosses. 

His dogs would already be established a few generations in. 

Do you get what the other member "carmspack" was saying when they said a "hybrid" of traits?

You have a czech line with the potential to be a VERY hard dog. Then you have an American showline which tend to be more on the softer end of the spectrum. Mixing the two is like putting cheese with cinnamon. It just doesn't make sense. 

Thats why your dog is more concerned with corrections and it shut the drives down.
You should see the type of things I have to do to my 14 week old puppies to get them to stop attacking my older dogs. And half the time they don't even take it seriously and just keep going. 
They are VERY hard dogs. 

I am not against working and show crosses by any means. but you should do it carefully, to preserve a "type" and have an already pretty hard showline to bring to an already hard working line.

I have seen some really amazing crosses that had a lot to offer. They were not soft by any means, had good conformation, and had a LOT of working ability.


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## SystemCritical (Nov 30, 2011)

4TheDawgies said:


> If he has been doing this for 25 years, I would imagine your breeder would already have a line developed that he wouldn't be doing immediate Czech to American Showline crosses.
> 
> His dogs would already be established a few generations in.


Yes, you are correct. I should have not been so literal. My mistake and I apologize. He has been blending lines for many years and my dog is a result of that blending. Is is not a direct cross between Czech and American show line. I meant to say he has those lines in his pedigree but predominantly Czech a few generations back according to him.

I'll have to post some of his pedigree for ya'll to look at. I have the Dam's but magically the Sire's is missing. I am picking up one from the breeder on Sunday.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

SystemCritical said:


> Yes, you are correct. I should have not been so literal. My mistake and I apologize. He has been blending lines for many years and my dog is a result of that blending. Is is not a direct cross between Czech and American show line. I meant to say he has those lines in his pedigree but predominantly Czech a few generations back according to him.
> 
> I'll have to post some of his pedigree for ya'll to look at. I have the Dam's but magically the Sire's is missing. I am picking up one from the breeder on Sunday.


Oh ok gotcha. In that case definitely post the pedigree I would be interested in seeing it


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