# Many working dogs with sloping backs - why?



## axiom

Despite the claim that the working line German Shepherd retains the original, straight back, there are countless examples of Show line-type backs. I have to post three more times to show you an example (lol).

Does anybody know why this phenomenon was able to reach the working line breed nonetheless?


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## Xeph

"Straight back" is marketing hype and nothing more. A GSD is supposed to have bend of stifle and good angulation fore and rear. They're not supposed to be built like Malinois.

A GSD with proper angulation will have a slightly sloping topline (not the same as a curvature of the spine). In addition to that, just because the topline drops, that doesn't mean the back isn't straight. Straight is not synonymous with horizontal or parallel to the floor


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## mycobraracr

I guess that depends on "sloping" or "straight" back. As already stated, "straight backed" is just a marketing ploy.


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## Baillif

Start making them jump the 1.2m hurdle in mondioring and tell me again how it's just a marketing ploy.


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## LoboFloppyEars

Every breed has a breed stack, and the GSD breed stack has the dog with it's leg pulled back. This creates a slope back effect and some show line breeders have created a look where a dog will always look like this when walking and not stacked.

Ever notice how when any breed of dog stretches and pulls their leg(s) back their back slopes?


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## carmspack

show us examples of these roach backed working line dogs.

the topline has many portions - including withers , and croup -- and the back .

the ideal is a harmonious smooth line -- not table flat .
Here is my Kilo who was French Ring Brevet, competed in Campagne - BH and AD 
ready for ring 1 --(club folded - no local trials) -- who jumped many a palisade and hurdle

the back has to have some elasticity - 

go to http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/175652-good-conformation-folder.html


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## cdwoodcox

A lot of people will say it is just the way they are stacked, or posed for a photo. However, if I catch my dogs in a natural stack they retain their straight back. If I try and stack them myself they look and act as if I am crazy. If I try and stack them to a point of angulation they are just like no thanks. It looks and seems really unnatural and uncomfortable for them. So, I really can't figure out why in the world we would take an unnatural/uncomfortable position and make that the desired thing. A natural stack in my dogs looks much different than what I see people doing with their dogs.


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## lhczth

Three working lines in various positions of being in a show "stack" and a top winning dog from the mid 20's. The third dog is over stretched a bit. The GSD should not be flat and Horand is a bad example to use since the last dog I picture is probably the closest Max got to his ideal. Notice the dog's high withers going into a level topline. He is in a more natural position, but is definitely not flat. 

I do agree some working line dogs are being shown looking like show lines. No idea why.


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## carmspack

hahaha -- didn't post kilo link Carmspack Kilo
saphire has a beautiful natural stack of her Gus - totally spontaneous -- I'll see if I can get her to post it.


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## Sunsilver

What I'm seeing in many WL dogs with V rated conformation is excessive slope of the croup. Here's one of the most popular studs of recent years:

Of course, the stack exaggerates the slope, but it would still be there if the dog were standing naturally.

Bomber vom Wolfsheim


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## Sunsilver

Photo of Bomber:


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## konathegsd

Sunsilver said:


> Photo of Bomber:


Stunning


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## Sunsilver

Here's his litter brother, Bandit - full brother, same litter:


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## Tennessee

Because they are capable of accomplishing the tasks that are demanded of the role to a level at least adequate as determined by the organization, and have the personality traits necessary to give at least adequate trust that they will carry them out under pressure. Simple as that. 

Keep in mind also that not every working dog you see is being run by special operations forces handlers with decades of institutional experience. There is wildly different levels of ability, professionalism, competence, and experience across this country. From podunk PD that let a deputy who really liked dogs and did internet research acquire a puppy and train it himself as the counties K9 unit (that's a true story going on right now, the dog is little more than probable cause on a leash) to SEAL Team 6 helicoptering in to Pakistan and taking down Bin Laden with Cairo the Malinois.

That being said I suspect your real question being: why if slope backs are a bad thing are dogs with what you see as sloped backs doing working jobs?

Because to a certain point it doesn't negatively affect the dog and the trait is so ingrained into the breed at this point that you'd be very hard pressed to find a nearly square GSD, any GSD. (Yes I know GSDs are longer so they'd be more accurately described as a rectangle than a square but I'm talking as close to a square as a rectangle can get). Much less find a perfect stud and dam pair in all other aspects that throws great pups, that are also very squared off, to make these pups in the first place. 

Steps should be taken to minimize this trait as much as possible without sacrificing what makes a GSD a GSD, but in the grand scheme of things it's here to stay OP. Put your money where your mouth is, just like alot of us did myself included, and financially reward breeders who breed dogs of solid temperament with good structure. Encourage others to do the same as well, but also recognize that some slope is inherent to the breed at this point.


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## astrovan2487

I have yet to see any decent breeders advertise the straight back. As others have said, its a a catch phrase to get uninformed buyer's attention. Just like how so many throw around terms like "100% DDR" and "old fashioned" GSDs. 
Now I do see reputable breeders of working lines claim their dogs do not have as much angulation or slope as the show lines, this is common, but they dont use the term "straight back." My working line has a fairly sloped back but nothing like the extremes of the show lines you often see. She is healthy, extremely athletic, and capable. This is pretty common, most working lines at club have some angulation. There is nothing wrong with it in moderation.


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## Saphire

As per Carmen's request


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## cdwoodcox

This is about as close to a stack as I can get. Athena. It's hard to get natural stacks. They don't stand still long enough.


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## mycobraracr

Same dog, a couple different stacks and a free stand over our male. As a bonus her jumping 6ft+ wall. 

unnamed 1 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
1014113_549412965226536_3038970775282230485_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
8-26-2015 park 001 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
Industrial 8-27-15 041 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


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## GypsyGhost

My West German WL bitch out of a V rated dam and SG rated sire.


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## cdwoodcox

I found a pic of Apollo. Where he does show some slight angulation.


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## konathegsd

The other day at the park I noticed a LOT of the gsd's had zero angulation. They looked like malinois with the rear higher. 

My pup kona also has very little angulation.


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## cdwoodcox

Yep, both of my German Shepherds have little or no angulation. I even tried to stack Athena a few posts up to the point of some angulation. You can see it didn't work. It looks painful, and I should never attempt it again. Some dogs with the right training and build it looks OK. Some dogs just don't have that. Or something like that. 
Anyway I prefer the straight back. The angulation in the above working lines does look OK. Nothing real extreme. Actually nice looking angles.


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## Baillif

Palisades don't count. Palisade is a climb. Broad jumps don't count either as a fast dog can get very little air and clear 4 meters without really having good jumping ability. The 1.2m hurdle is the hardest and most demanding jump of the three at maximum height.


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## Sunsilver

THIS is what zero angulation looks like!

Do NOT say your GSD has zero angulation!

Post-legged quarter horse:


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## konathegsd

Sunsilver said:


> THIS is what zero angulation looks like!
> 
> Do NOT say your GSD has zero angulation!
> 
> Post-legged quarter horse:


I have seen many gsd's that look like that unfortunately


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## carmspack

kona don't look at the quarter horse's topline -- look at the legs --


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## luvumall

Louis Donald's article "Back of the German Shepherd" provided me with tons of (seemingly) fact-filled info. Now, when someone starts on about straight vs sloping I just ask them something about the lumbar or thoracic sections of the back. Separates the wheat from the chaff pretty quick. Is anyone else familiar with this article? Any opinions on his work?


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## Sunsilver

Yes, the hind legs are what I'm talking about!


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## Solamar

Reading this got me curious. Woke my dog up and asked her to stand, she sat. Told her UP and she put her paws on me. Put my hand under her belly to attempt to put her in a position to examine her topline. After a minute of her wiggling around, she gave me a bizarre look, walked away and went back to sleep. I got a good chuckle at myself...


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## WateryTart

cdwoodcox said:


> A lot of people will say it is just the way they are stacked, or posed for a photo. However, if I catch my dogs in a natural stack they retain their straight back. If I try and stack them myself they look and act as if I am crazy. If I try and stack them to a point of angulation they are just like no thanks. It looks and seems really unnatural and uncomfortable for them. So, I really can't figure out why in the world we would take an unnatural/uncomfortable position and make that the desired thing. A natural stack in my dogs looks much different than what I see people doing with their dogs.


Disclaimer: I have a show line dog. And I should make clear that she is a pet dog and not a show dog in part because she lacks the angulation to make her successful in the ring, so you will not see a pronounced slope in her topline, although it is more sloped than when she's just standing rather than free stacking.

But stacking in a position similar to a show stack is far from unnatural for her. This photo was taken at a dog park with me about twenty feet behind her, and I happened to have my camera up when she stopped trotting, turned, and struck this pose. She adopts this stance regularly. In fact, I stack her exactly like this when we're in conformation class (she's my practice dog). I wouldn't stretch her out any more than she is here. So I don't think that it's either unnatural or uncomfortable.


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## Jenny720

Lol! Yeah Who the heck wants to sit still but now after some time I swear Max will give me a nice show stand just to make me happy and does it often. I find it a natural pose and I'm not talking about the exaggerated stretching of the dogs you see at some shows. I like some angulation.. Our poor chihuahua has legs like that horse- straight as a pin - no angulation. Even though our chihuahua can keep up with the big guys with his back by leg paddling. the vet said he will have some serious issues with his back legs in his older years. Our chihuahuas legs resembles quite a few of those gsds from yester year with the butt in the air and many sunken backs. Max is American showline and moderate. He is jumping and a 4 foot tic tack toe board at a kids play ground in the park. He has not much room to get traction and has to be very precise not to hit his head on the monkey bars above him. His conformation does not hinder his athletic ability. People
Don't seem to get no anglulation is just as bad as over angulation. Moderation.


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## Jenny720

Luna a wgsl at 7 months in a stand and a natural stack.


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## carmspack

Baillif said:


> Palisades don't count. Palisade is a climb. Broad jumps don't count either as a fast dog can get very little air and clear 4 meters without really having good jumping ability. The 1.2m hurdle is the hardest and most demanding jump of the three at maximum height.


palisades , broad and hurdle - all 3 are required at some point -- 20 points each 

the point is the (my) dog with his conformation and athleticism could successfully and comfortably tackle all 3 without injury .
a dog with a roach back will not allow the shoulder to open for that full body extension which includes a flex in the back , and not just reach with the fore quarters.

a roach back keeps the top line compressed .

a bad back on a working dog is like having a horse with a bad foot -- so a roached back for a working dog is to be avoided 

by the same token extremes in angulation either lacking or in excess impair function.

a dog with extreme rear can not make the , "climb" on the palisade. The dog has to pop up a good portion like a spider man to grab on to the top . The dog needs some thrust from his rear.


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## carmspack

luvumall said:


> Louis Donald's article "Back of the German Shepherd" provided me with tons of (seemingly) fact-filled info. Now, when someone starts on about straight vs sloping I just ask them something about the lumbar or thoracic sections of the back. Separates the wheat from the chaff pretty quick. Is anyone else familiar with this article? Any opinions on his work?


compare the anatomical illustrations with Linda Shaw's reference book </title> <link rel="profile" href="http://gmpg.org/xfn/11"> <link rel="pingback" href="http://shawlein.com/wordpress/xmlrpc.php"> <title>SHAWLEIN.COM


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## cdwoodcox

WateryTart said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of people will say it is just the way they are stacked, or posed for a photo. However, if I catch my dogs in a natural stack they retain their straight back. If I try and stack them myself they look and act as if I am crazy. If I try and stack them to a point of angulation they are just like no thanks. It looks and seems really unnatural and uncomfortable for them. So, I really can't figure out why in the world we would take an unnatural/uncomfortable position and make that the desired thing. A natural stack in my dogs looks much different than what I see people doing with their dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Disclaimer: I have a show line dog. And I should make clear that she is a pet dog and not a show dog in part because she lacks the angulation to make her successful in the ring, so you will not see a pronounced slope in her topline, although it is more sloped than when she's just standing rather than free stacking.
> 
> But stacking in a position similar to a show stack is far from unnatural for her. This photo was taken at a dog park with me about twenty feet behind her, and I happened to have my camera up when she stopped trotting, turned, and struck this pose. She adopts this stance regularly. In fact, I stack her exactly like this when we're in conformation class (she's my practice dog). I wouldn't stretch her out any more than she is here. So I don't think that it's either unnatural or uncomfortable.
Click to expand...

 Show stacking my dogs was never something I have had interest doing. Except to participate in these posts. Probably obvious from my pic of Athena. My dogs will sometimes stop and naturally be in a stack position. But I still don't see a lot of angulation. There is probably some I just never paid attention to it. What does your dog look like in a normal stance, not natural stack? I'll post pics of all 3 of my dogs standing freely. This is why I said they have straight back. But maybe most dogs look straight back free standing. Athena is just now 15 months and in just the past two months has really started to fill out or thicken up. So she is kind of at an in between stage right now. 
I remember watching a dog show last year. The thing that stuck out most about the German Shepherds to me was the rear hocks. They were probably very angulated top lines. But, the rear hocks is what I noticed more.


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## cdwoodcox

This also just popped up on my Google feed. Can most show dogs people on here own stand and balance freely while both pasterns are vertical?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/28/german-shepherds-dying-misery-due-intensive-breeding/


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## dogfaeries

Okay, wait. So the kennel club in the UK wants the GSDs _pasterns_ to be straight up and down. Like a fox terrier? Or do they mean the stifles? (Pasterns - front legs, stifles - back legs). Basically NO angulation? Vertical pasterns and/or stifles means _no_ angulation.


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## cdwoodcox

Here is the kennel clubs press release. 
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/pre...b-statement-on-the-german-shepherd-dog-(gsd)/


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## Jenny720

I erased what I said by accident but I think what they mean is they want the dog to stand four square. Unsupported I think they mean free /natural stack. There was post about this awhile ago. There was a gsd the won crufts last year or the year before who was extremely angulated and many people were upset which I believe led to the changes.
This is the krufts show I believe in this post that ignited these changes. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=625754


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## Chip18

Well it seems kinda like everyone is doing potato vs potatoes??? To my eye ... all the dogs represented thus far are what a GSD should look like. 

But I stumbled across a "Roach Back" unexpectedly on an episode of Cesar's Dog Nation. The dog had a pronounced "upward curvature to the spine???" I was stunned as I have not seen a single GSD in real life that looked like that ... although most of them around here are usually in pick ups and Subaru's ... going somewhere so who knows?? 

The dog seemed fine ... but I found it quite disturbing to see?? I did not really care for that look myself ... it just looked "wrong???"


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## Cschmidt88

I never understood why people obsess so much over the "slope", if you have a good eye for structure you can look past the stack and see the dog's structure as is. Even if there is a "slope" (terrible term btw) to the way the dog is stacked, the back itself can still be straight. Honestly I feel, as Carmspack mentioned, there are other issues that need attention such as roached toplines appearing in some GSDs. I've noticed an increase of injuries with them and dogs that are very short coupled along with super steep croups, often unbalanced in their angles as well. 

Also, it's continually frustrating when Horand and other foundation dogs are used as examples. They were just that, foundation dogs, they were not exactly what Max wanted in the breed but they were a starting point. Many had quite bad structure but Max was improving upon it. Here is the very last dog he put up before he passed away, you can see a clear movement away from the structure seen in Horand.
Jalk vom Pagensgrüb









But to further the example of how you can influence the initial impression of the dog with your stack, here are some of the same dog around the same age:

































Another dog:

















I like this example as you can tell, even in the more extreme stack, that the dog is not extreme in structure. You just gotta develop an eye for it. (In the mean time Linda Shaw's Illustrated Standard for the GSD is a fantastic book).


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## WateryTart

cdwoodcox said:


> Show stacking my dogs was never something I have had interest doing. Except to participate in these posts. Probably obvious from my pic of Athena. My dogs will sometimes stop and naturally be in a stack position. But I still don't see a lot of angulation. There is probably some I just never paid attention to it. What does your dog look like in a normal stance, not natural stack? I'll post pics of all 3 of my dogs standing freely. This is why I said they have straight back. But maybe most dogs look straight back free standing. Athena is just now 15 months and in just the past two months has really started to fill out or thicken up. So she is kind of at an in between stage right now.
> I remember watching a dog show last year. The thing that stuck out most about the German Shepherds to me was the rear hocks. They were probably very angulated top lines. But, the rear hocks is what I noticed more.


I wouldn't say this is exactly a normal stance for her as usually she free stacks to some degree, and she sort of stopped mid-step so she looks funny, but she is standing and not stacking in this photo and you can see her back.


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## Slamdunc

It is definitely worthwhile for people to do some research on the correct structure and conformation of a GSD. I am a working dog person, but I have handled many dogs in the show ring. I have shown my own dogs to get a breed survey and Koer rating. I have handled dogs for others at regional and the National Sieger Shows. 

Extremes in any aspect are not practical or desirable, IMHO. Extreme angulation which may be nice for a trot is not going to be great for jumping and holding up over years of working. A dog lacking any angulation is not going to hold up either. There are many pictures posted as examples of dogs with straight backs, which are supposed to be good examples of structure and conformation? Honestly, some aren't very good examples of what a GSD should be, should look like, structure, conformation or a dog capable of doing any work. 

It takes a little skill to stack a dog properly. A working dog should have some angulation, not extreme, but some. The stack can be exaggerated by drawing the rear leg back too far, or not far enough, by not having the front legs straight under the shoulder, by not having all four feet positioned properly, etc. 

Looking at a dog in a "natural stack" or just standing still often tells us very little about it's conformation. Because a dog has little angulation does not automatically make it a "superior" or more desirable GSD than one with more correct structure, and vice versa. It is so much more involved than that. 

I look at the overall dog. The truly great dogs, IMHO can easily do the AD (12 mile jog next to a bike), can jump the 1 meter hurdles with ease, clear the a frame, do very nice OB, and can do other work, in addition to having correct conformation, temperament and drives. It is a total package, not just how the dog looks or how straight it's back is. A straight back is not necessarily a desirable structure and be very leary of breeders that are marketing dogs with "straight backs." It goes along with oversized, "old style", blah blah blah. A sign of a breeder that uneducated, inexperienced and not very knowledgeable.


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## WateryTart

Slamdunc said:


> It is definitely worthwhile for people to do some research on the correct structure and conformation of a GSD. I am a working dog person, but I have handled many dogs in the show ring. I have shown my own dogs to get a breed survey and Koer rating. I have handled dogs for others at regional and the National Sieger Shows.
> 
> Extremes in any aspect are not practical or desirable, IMHO. Extreme angulation which may be nice for a trot is not going to be great for jumping and holding up over years of working. A dog lacking any angulation is not going to hold up either. There are many pictures posted as examples of dogs with straight backs, which are supposed to be good examples of structure and conformation? Honestly, some aren't very good examples of what a GSD should be, should look like, structure, conformation or a dog capable of doing any work.
> 
> It takes a little skill to stack a dog properly. A working dog should have some angulation, not extreme, but some. The stack can be exaggerated by drawing the rear leg back too far, or not far enough, by not having the front legs straight under the shoulder, by not having all four feet positioned properly, etc.
> 
> Looking at a dog in a "natural stack" or just standing still often tells us very little about it's conformation. Because a dog has little angulation does not automatically make it a "superior" or more desirable GSD than one with more correct structure, and vice versa. It is so much more involved than that.
> 
> I look at the overall dog. The truly great dogs, IMHO can easily do the AD (12 mile jog next to a bike), can jump the 1 meter hurdles with ease, clear the a frame, do very nice OB, and can do other work, in addition to having correct conformation, temperament and drives. It is a total package, not just how the dog looks or how straight it's back is. A straight back is not necessarily a desirable structure and be very leary of breeders that are marketing dogs with "straight backs." It goes along with oversized, "old style", blah blah blah. A sign of a breeder that uneducated, inexperienced and not very knowledgeable.


I'd certainly say this is true: It is way, way more involved than just seeing the dog free stacked (or even stacked). I don't even know enough to be dangerous but I know there's a lot that plays into proper conformation. And so much is about how the dog looks in motion.

I should be clear that I don't think my dog is a prime example of GSD conformation. She's my practice dog for a reason! If she were a prime example of GSD conformation, her breeder would have kept her (several of her littermates were kept back). I posted that candid of her strictly to refute the idea that stacking is an unnatural or uncomfortable position for a dog.


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## carmspack

in this very thread there are numerous examples of dogs standing unsupported , comfortably and with vertical pasterns and hocks.

I have been approached by many owners of dogs with cripplingly horendous soft or collapsed pasterns where the fore - leg is like a tube sock when which pulls off your foot when getting out of a boot.

they are literally horizontal. 

the dogs are supported by nutrition and in many a case by specially designed BRACES and cuffs . 

same for rears - dogs walking on their hocks - 

the dog is in pain , is incapacitated by walking the shortest of distances --- this is what they are trying to fix
and good on them 

high time


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## Xeph

cdwoodcox said:


> This is about as close to a stack as I can get. Athena. It's hard to get natural stacks. They don't stand still long enough.


She's incredibly overstretched here, though


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## cdwoodcox

Xeph said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is about as close to a stack as I can get. Athena. It's hard to get natural stacks. They don't stand still long enough.
> 
> 
> 
> She's incredibly overstretched here, though
Click to expand...

Yep, that's cause I have no clue when it comes to stacking. But we're just doing SCH so really no need to. She is plenty athletic and agile. So I assume her structure is fine.


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