# Just Decided to Become A Breeder.



## Louise Lai

I got my first GSD puppy a few months ago, and I have decided that I would really like, in the future, to become a breeder.

I've had a few ups and downs with my boy, but, on the whole, he's been wonderful to have and work with. 

I've started getting into working with my dog, although my knowledge is still limited. I've joined a Schutzhund Club, and we have a long way to go yet, but it's strengthened my love of the sport and the breed.

I'm still pretty young (22), and in school, so I don't want to rush into anything, but I'd really like to become a breeder in about 5-10 years or so. Right now, I just want to soak up as much as I can and work with my dog.

Can I get some straightforward advice on how to get started? What to read, what to learn, etc?


----------



## x11

my suggestion is bookmark your desire to become a breeder and just go get some general life knowledge. 22 years old....


----------



## FirstTimeGSD

I think for now you should just enjoy your dog and focus on learning everything you can learn about the breed before you even think about actually breeding.


----------



## Louise Lai

I don't plan on starting right now. Like I said in my first post, I'm thinking more like...10 years down the road. But it's something I want to work up to. If I don't think about it now, 10 years down the line, I won't know any more than I do right now.

FirstTimeGSD, I'm trying to learn. I'm just asking for pointers on where to start said education, and all I'm getting are disparaging responses about my age.


----------



## Liesje

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/thinking-about-becoming-breeder/193412-getting-started.html


----------



## lhczth

Your SchH club is a good start. I would read as much as you can on the history of the breed. Train, spend time around dogs, watch, listen, spend time around breeders and other trainers, watch, ask questions, listen.


----------



## robk

Louise,
Welcome to the forum! This is a great place to learn. You will read a lot of great stuff here and be exposed to many aspects of the breed from people here who have decades of experience. 

Rob


----------



## Louise Lai

Thank you for the advice and welcome! I've actually done quite a bit of lurking, but finally decided to get some personalized advice.


----------



## martemchik

Go to your club...a lot.

Go to shows and trials...a lot.

Talk to people that know things about dogs, get objective opinions on your dog and other people's dogs. Reading will get you some information, a little more in depth on pedigrees, but really the best way to learn is to go and see things happening. See dogs in real life, understand all the "terms" that are used. Start learning correct conformation and correct drives.

You don't have to plan on being a breeder, hopefully 10 years from now you have a dog that is breed worthy and someone will take you under their wing and show you the way. Like the other posters have said, you don't really have to have this plan now, just learn as much as you can about the breed and how to do things responsibly.


----------



## Jack's Dad

If you plan to do anything, why not at 22?
It's a lot better to have plans and goals when you are 20 something than at 40.

You can change your plans if you choose but never let anyone discourage you. 

Lisa gave some good general advice. I think the thread Lies posted is pretty much useless. Sorry Lies.

There are a number of very knowledgeable people on here that can help you if they choose to. Keep reading threads on breeding and training and you will figure out who knows what they are talking about, and then there is the rest of us.

Read Iceberg Breeders. That thread will give you an idea about the complexities of breeding. It's a good long read.

Best wishes to you.


----------



## Louise Lai

Thank you, Jack's Dad. I'll find it.


----------



## GSDElsa

Good luck in your quest! You are in the right from of mind planning on learning from this dog and absorbing as much information as possible and then seeing where this crazy GSD life takes you. Sounds like a great 10 year plan if you can keep on track and find some great local people to help guide you!


----------



## Louise Lai

Well, I think the breeder I got my puppy from might be willing to help guide me a little. She's in my club.

And thank you for your positive wishes. I'm a biology major, so I understand genetics and all, I just need to get more familiar with the specifics of dog/GSD breeding and such.


----------



## Liesje

Jack's Dad said:


> I think the thread Lies posted is pretty much useless. Sorry Lies.


No worries, I didn't actually read most of it, it just looked like the same questions.


----------



## katieliz

(imho)unfortunately too many people are breeding german shepherd dogs already. maybe in 10 years something will have worked out, but in general the breed is full of health and temperment issues, and kill shelters and rescues are overflowing with shepherds needing help. there are definitely ethical breeders out there that you could learn from, but the sad reality is that there is an endless supply of shepherds needing homes out there, and more than enough people breeding already. 

no breeder bashing here, just a hard look at the reality of the situation. and, as i began with, jmho...just remember please, that you are responsible for every single one of those little lives you arrange to create. thanks for giving it careful consideration.


----------



## x11

apologies for being disparaging. just seen the hurt and its hard to forget. does not mean you will be anything but an awesome ethical breeder as i hope you will be.

go slow and good luck.


----------



## Louise Lai

I know there are a lot of puppies being bred, but it seems to me that there is always a high demand for well-bred puppies. I want to get involved in rescue, too. But I really don't want the only GSDs available, the only GSD that everyone sees and knows, to be the results of a backyard breeder or puppymill out to make a quick buck.

And apology accepted, x11. I understand. I'm just trying very hard to do this the best way possible.


----------



## katieliz

louise, do you know which lines (german show, german working, american show, czech/ddr) you're interested in, apologies if i didn't see it...i am the first in four generations of my family to not breed, takes a long, long time to know your stuff, it can be difficult and heartbreaking and it can cost you lots and lots and LOTS of money. if you do it right, it must be your life's work. imho.


----------



## Louise Lai

katieliz said:


> louise, do you know which lines (german show, german working, american show, czech/ddr) you're interested in, apologies if i didn't see it...i am the first in four generations of my family to not breed, takes a long, long time to know your stuff, it can be difficult and heartbreaking and it can cost you lots and lots and LOTS of money. if you do it right, it must be your life's work. imho.


Well, mine is German Show, but I'm really interested in Czech lines. And most things worth doing take a lot of time and effort. I understand there's a lot to learn, and I'm trying to get started so I don't get too over my head in the future.


----------



## ohdev

A good, and interesting, place to start right now would be learning all you can about the genetics of our breed, and how to read a pedigree. There's tons of threads on how the structure of a pedigree can make or break the dogs you produce, and how even the placing of an individual dog on one can shape the progeny. The people here are very knowledgeable and can teach you a lot, I suggest reading a lot of old threads and searching for certain terms as well and soaking up everything you can, that's what I've been doing!

Oh, and get familiar with the breed standard from the SV as well I'd say. It'll help when reading critiques of dogs, there's a great illustrated one by Linda Shaw.

THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD OF THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG

I think your age is an asset really, I myself am 21 and I think it gives us both much more of a chance to really experience and learn as much as we can about these dogs, and to reach out to those older and more experienced to make sure we learn and do the right way. My favorite people to learn from on here include Cliffson, Chris Wild, Christine from Blackthorn, Carmen (Carmspack), and Lisa Clark (lhczth), just to name a very few! I also follow the Alta-Tolhaus group blog on Blogger, it's amazing to see the variety one breeder can produce, and really shows you how versatile a well thought out, and carefully bred GSD can be.

Get as much exposure to as many dogs as you can, look at their training if you can, examine their pedigrees if you like something about them, look at their father and mother, and their progeny if there are any. Ask lots of questions too! I think the most important part is to get out there and work with as many dogs as you can, but you'd already on that track since you've joined a club.

Good luck!


----------



## cliffson1

Welcome Louise, I started out at about17 years old and have never looked back....stay in your club, get underneath some knowledgable people in your club and listen and learn, go to as many live events as possible....trials, shows, (obedience and conformation), and train as much as you can. Find a mentor that is knowledgable and OPENMINDED, there are many negative, narrow minded people in the breed. And lastly, study the history of the breed so as to have point of reference of what the breed should be....good luck!


----------



## marshies

Not a breeder, no knowledge. Came in, and wanted to comment because we are in a similar place in life. Don't know how much value it adds...hopefully some.

I think as a puppy buyer, I would expect my breeder to have EXTENSIVE knowledge about the working ability of even a show-line puppy. My breeder had this knowledge, and matched me with the perfect dog in terms of drive, endurance, personality, etc. To that extent, as a puppy buyer, I would expect to see handling, showing, and working history of many kinds. I think it's harder than it seems. 

When I got my dog, I had lofty goals of taking her to great places in our training. I still do dream, but have had to scale back alot of training because real-life as a 20 year old starting my career is taking precedent. I love her, I just won't be able to do competitive OB with her. You might find the same, given our similiar age.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Louise, where did your pup come from if you don't mind me asking? Would love to see his pedigree. I am in southestern Oklahoma and always looking to check out breeders in the region.


----------



## Kyleigh

Louise, 

I know absolutely nothing about breeding (other than it takes a male and female to have puppies!)

But, I wanted to add my two cents here ... You're young ... and you have passion -that's AWESOME!!! There is no better combination when you are embarking on something new and exciting. I'm going to go on a limb ... no kids? Maybe single ... or if in a relationship ... with someone that likes / loves dogs too??? (I hope so!)

I'm in my 40s, single, never married, no kids.

I've done things in my 20s and 30s and still do in my 40s that I would never have been able to do had I been married / with kids. (Not that there's anything wrong with the other side of the fence ... but there's certainly some limits!)

When I was in my early 20s, I co-founded and ran a ferret rescue. I worked full time, went to University at night to get my degrees. After 12 years of ferret rescue, I stepped down and handed the reins over to the next "younger" generation. They are doing awesome. 

I landed my dream job, and got an african grey (dream bird), and then launched into working with federal parolees and dogs. I used my dog and my friend's dogs to work with the parolees (I tried for 3 years to get something going with the city / province to no avail, so I reached out to my friends). 

I left that after 10 years, and have been kind of aimless in my next serious "quest".

I've slowed down some, but I teach young woman at risk how to quilt (we make some beautiful quilts) - one evening, and one afternoon on the weekend. They LOVE Kyleigh. I'm working at getting a similar group of young woman and dogs together to teach these girls confidence, poise, etc. 

NONE of this has anything to do with breeding ... but what it has ... the passion and youth that you have now. 

Go hang out with all the clubs, meet people, get down and dirty ... and FOLLOW YOUR DREAM. Don't let ANYONE hold you back. 

I wish you all the best in your pursuits of your passion!


----------



## lhczth

katieliz said:


> (imho)unfortunately too many people are breeding german shepherd dogs already. maybe in 10 years something will have worked out, but in general the breed is full of health and temperment issues, and kill shelters and rescues are overflowing with shepherds needing help. there are definitely ethical breeders out there that you could learn from, but the sad reality is that there is an endless supply of shepherds needing homes out there, and more than enough people breeding already.
> 
> no breeder bashing here, just a hard look at the reality of the situation. and, as i began with, jmho...just remember please, that you are responsible for every single one of those little lives you arrange to create. thanks for giving it careful consideration.


There area lot of GSD being bred, but we are sorely lacking in breeders breeding for GSD (and people like Cliff and Anne know what I mean). There is a high demand for dogs in the working sector and for breeders with the knowledge and experience to supply these dogs especially in the USA. Most working dogs are coming out of Europe.


----------



## Louise Lai

lhczth said:


> There area lot of GSD being bred, but we are sorely lacking in breeders breeding for GSD (and people like Cliff and Anne know what I mean). There is a high demand for dogs in the working sector and for breeders with the knowledge and experience to supply these dogs especially in the USA. Most working dogs are coming out of Europe.



^ Exactly. This. Yes. Could not have said it better. I don't want to breed for pets. I mean, I want to produce dogs that will be good companions, but that can work like they're supposed to as well.

Also, Kyleigh, I am single. I'm kinda planning on being single. I've had such horrible experiences with dating that I'm reluctant to put myself out there again. I'll be happier single. Thank you so much for your encouragement. It means a lot.

And I'm definitely going to start studying pedigrees and educating myself even further on the breed standard and history. Self-improvement. Gotta love it.


----------



## lhczth

I was 21 when I first started working dogs. Got my first GSD when I was 22 with a desire to eventually breed. I had already started breeding horses, but I started riding when I was 11 and training when I was 13. I didn't actually have a litter until I was 41. Go into this with the desire to learn and to do no harm. I don't believe in learning to breed or to be a good breeder by breeding (though obviously you will always be learning). I think you should know the GSD extremely well before you start to breed.


----------



## Louise Lai

lhczth said:


> I was 21 when I first started working dogs. Got my first GSD when I was 22 with a desire to eventually breed. I had already started breeding horses, but I started riding when I was 11 and training when I was 13. I didn't actually have a litter until I was 41. Go into this with the desire to learn and to do no harm. I don't believe in learning to breed or to be a good breeder by breeding (though obviously you will always be learning). I think you should know the GSD extremely well before you start to breed.


I agree. I'm here to learn. Of course, I'm out there learning as well, I just know there are so many people here with experience and a wealth of knowledge that I was willing to accept direction. I've gotten some good advice, and I don't plan to jump into anything too soon. I want to have/train/work a couple more dogs before I think about breeding. Especially working line dogs, since that's where my interest lies, and my boy is show line.

I just want to start heading in that direction and obtain as much knowledge as I can beforehand.


----------



## Freestep

When I was your age, I thought I wanted to be a breeder, too. I started working with animals, learning, volunteered with shelters, learning, went to dog shows, learning... got my first purebred GSD, then another, and another, and somewhere in there I realized that breeding dogs is fraught with ethical issues that I just don't have the temperament for.

Even if you are the best GSD breeder in the world, you will have a large group of people out there who hate you, and despise the fact that you are bringing more pets into the world, when there are so many languishing and dying in shelters, on the streets, etc. I'm not saying this to discourage you, but this is something you should know, and be able to deal with. I have the utmost respect for breeders who are ethical, responsible and are doing it for the right reasons. Unfortunately, not everyone sees it the same way.

I do think your age is an asset, because you have plenty of time to learn and grow with GSDs. Get active in the SchH club, go to as many SV-style shows as you can, talk to as many dog-people as you can, get involved. Did you read Bethany's thread about wanting to be a breeder? Lots of good stuff there. Keep reading this forum and ask questions. Remember that the internet is full of disinformation, but as you go, you will learn how to sift the gold out of the dirt.

Keep in mind that your current dog may not be your future breeding dog, but go through the motions with him as though he were, so that you have the experience and know what it takes.

Start at the beginning. Find a copy of _The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture_, by Max von Stephanitz. He founded the breed back in the late 1800's and I believe the book was written around 1920. You can usually find a used copy on Amazon for a decent price.


----------



## lhczth

Louise, the most learning is done through doing though I also did a tremendous amount of reading. The more you do, the more dogs you work, the greater your understanding will be of the breed. Keep an open mind. We all can become a bit blind at times. That is human nature. I think it is harder now because many of those that really knew and understood this breed have died or are not as available. 

Good luck.


----------



## Louise Lai

lhczth said:


> Louise, the most learning is done through doing though I also did a tremendous amount of reading. The more you do, the more dogs you work, the greater your understanding will be of the breed. Keep an open mind. We all can become a bit blind at times. That is human nature. I think it is harder now because many of those that really knew and understood this breed have died or are not as available.
> 
> Good luck.


Reading is good. I love reading, and I welcome any reading material on the subject.

Also, I will find that book. Sounds like a good read. 

Also, I don't plan on my dog being used for breeding. He's my first one, and I plan to make all my mistakes on him.


----------



## Louise Lai

Freestep said:


> Start at the beginning. Find a copy of _The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture_, by Max von Stephanitz. He founded the breed back in the late 1800's and I believe the book was written around 1920. You can usually find a used copy on Amazon for a decent price.


I found this in ebook format for $9.00. Not bad at all.


----------



## Lilie

Louis Lai - There are some really good breeders out there. Some not so good. And some that are doing nothing but destroying the breed. 

I'd love for you to jump in and get your feet wet. Study. Study. Study. Work. Work. Work. Become one of the really good breeders. The GSD breed really needs them!


----------



## WVGSD

Louise: 

Another suggestion is to join the *German Shepherd Dog Club of America*. While it does have a lot of photos and show results from AKC conformation shows, it also shows the results of the herding trials, obedience trials and other events in which GSDs compete. I joined when I got my first GSD puppy this year and find that reading the Review each month helps with my breed education.


----------



## katieliz

hi louise, i have thought about you and your question for a few days now, and have decided that i'm probably biased in favor of not breeding because i'm involved in rescue, and that really isn't fair. i also thought about how the breed does need to continue and how in order to do that there must be breeders. here is my new thought on the subject and it's pretty simple...if you have rock solid, i mean inherently rock solid (even at your young age), character, and a well developed and implemented sense of ethics...then i say learn all you can and go for it. you just GOTTA have character and ethics built in. all the rest you can learn, but don't underestimate the time it will take. really good breeders devote a lifetime. wishing you good luck and kinda regretting my first knee-jerk response. take care.


----------



## Jrnabors

There's a lot of breeders out there already. That being said, in any career, hobby, etc. you will always find a place if you are the best at what you do. At least half of the GSD breeders out there are not offering good dogs. My dog was expensive to buy from a reputable breeder, and I would never breed this dog. She'll be gettiing spayed as soon as I can afford it. Too many bad traits. Lots of us can help improve the breed by not breeding them.


----------

