# How much of a dog's grip is Genetic?



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

How much of a dog's grip is Genetic? Can it be trained and developed? If it is genetic, does it start to get strong after a certain age or is it always strong from puppyhood?

Thanks,
Rob


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

I was just having this discussion with Ezra's breeder the other day... Its certainly her opinion and I share it that genetics certainly do have an effect on grip. Ezra, just 12 weeks old, already goes for a full deep grip. It is highly noticeable when compared to Abbie's grip.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

My girl does not have a very strong grip at all. I hope it improves with her Shutzhund training.


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

Genetic and can be affected by training. I could see differences in puppies I've had through the years from the time I got them. Also had a few to train that had no early foundations to develop grip...it was there. I also believe there is relation to temperament as well. And my hardest gripping dogs showed a desire to exercise that grip on their kong, basically akin to a powerlifter loving the most exerting lifts, or a boxer or football player putting their all into the physical effort of their sport. These dogs also showed alot of fight in the work.
Sue


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Yup. Mostly genetic, but can usually be adjusted to some degree through training. I'd say the same goes for a dog who pulls vs pushes into the helper, or the nerve threshold. I supppose a lot of things apply here.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

justde said:


> Genetic and can be affected by training. Sue


Very true. Affected by training via positive or negative.

Good training that can cover up issues in the bite and nerve or bad training that can impact bite and nerve.....


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

If the grip is genetic, how much of it is muscle verses mental?


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

robk said:


> If the grip is genetic, how much of it is muscle verses mental?


That is a good question. In terms of how full a grip is, I think we are talking mainly genetics. Now firmness of a grip I think is also partly genetic, but I beleive it is more mental than muscle. I dog that bites hard does it because he means to bite hard.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

It is ALL genetic. I have found this out first hand now. 
I have a czech dog who is 17 months old and he never had the full, hard deep bites as a puppy. Now through training we have developed full mouth bites but he is still hectic and thrashing. As a pup he never countered automatically. Mainly 1/2 & 3/4 bites. Now in training again, you can help the dog develop it but under stress they will do what is genetic.

Now on the flip side

I have a 14 week old female who has genetically full, strong, calm hard grips. She is 3/4 WGWL and 1/4 czech. When I got her and took her out and played with her, she went for full mouth bites. If I pull away she naturally releases and goes for a full mouth bite, pressure & no feeding is necessary. She is on it like a shark. She is calm and can be cradled and is perfectly fine. This makes things sooo much easier when it comes to training.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IMO it is all genetic and, baring abuse, can not be ruined through training. Less than full grips can be helped through good training depending on the reasons. If a dog has a poor grip due to nerves than the problems will show up when the dog is put under pressure. 

I know people like to claim that full grips are a "sport" thing, but they come from the herding influence of our breed's foundation. A full grip that is hard enough to control and over power the sheep was desired. Chewy or hectic grips would do damage and shallow soft grips would not be enough to control an animal that often had its own mind and far outweighed the dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The necessity of full grips for full points is a sport thing,imo. Full grips are not always hard grips. You have full and hard and you have full and full. Full grips can be trained but under stress the dogs will revert to their genetics,imo. But there are many thoughts on this, I guess.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The reason that I ask is because my pups grip is pure garbage. I have not really been working him that hard in any area as I have not been able to take him out to our club since October and I have not wanted to train him wrong on my own. (he is 7 & 1/2 mo old) I recently introduced him to a leather tug which he attacks with vingence. However he has no bite strength. I can always just pull the tug out of his mouth with very little effort. He bites full but not hard. Is this a develpmental thing because the leather tug is unfamiliar to him and he really don't know how to bite down? Will his strength and bite grow as he matures? Or is a strong bite probably something that I will never have with him if he doesnt have it at an early age?
Thanks,
Rob


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

How is he with other tug toys? Does he have anything going on with his teeth or gums? Could be he is not frustrated enough, could be he feels overpowered. You could try to let him win as soon as he bites it, then slowly build up the pressure (letting him win each time). Or you could pull the tug right out of his mouth so he learns he must bite hard to keep it. Maybe take him back out to the club and let your helper evaluate it.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

robk said:


> The reason that I ask is because my pups grip is pure garbage. I have not really been working him that hard in any area as I have not been able to take him out to our club since October and I have not wanted to train him wrong on my own. (he is 7 & 1/2 mo old) I recently introduced him to a leather tug which he attacks with vingence. However he has no bite strength. I can always just pull the tug out of his mouth with very little effort. He bites full but not hard. Is this a develpmental thing because the leather tug is unfamiliar to him and he really don't know how to bite down? Will his strength and bite grow as he matures? Or is a strong bite probably something that I will never have with him if he doesnt have it at an early age?
> Thanks,
> Rob


"...my pups grip is pure garbage." Im sorry but that was funny...lmao!!! I busted out laughing when I read that sentence.

Now with that out the way...

How was he when you were going to club training? What were you using before the leather tug?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

he is young .
you may be giving cheap bites .
he may not have fight drive.
he is young.
let him win .


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

One dog I know takes his time to mature and just now started to actually tug. He would bite but there wasn't much of a grip or anything. Now, boy...it's on. 

Other than that, I've never been around dogs that wouldn't tug from an early age on.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The more valuable it is, the more the pup will want to possess it. I would make him work harder for it. Backtie him and tease him up before he wins it. I'd encourage him to calmly hold it when he finally wins. Better calm than thrashing/shaking it. 
Leather gets slimy, have you tried a french linen or burlap/jute?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> The more valuable it is, the more the pup will want to possess it. I would make him work harder for it. Backtie him and tease him up before he wins it. I'd encourage him to calmly hold it when he finally wins. Better calm than thrashing/shaking it.
> Leather gets slimy, have you tried a french linen or burlap/jute?


Only recommend that for somebody that has actually the experience to do it. You can drive a dog into avoidance or into defense that way.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

On my 15 week old I use a shammie. That way she can't sink her teeth in but rather has to hold on strong.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> Only recommend that for somebody that has actually the experience to do it. You can drive a dog into avoidance or into defense that way.


You can do it with out putting pressure on the dog, it is a drive building exercise, not a pressure/put into defense exercise. If my dog went into avoidance with that, then I don't think it would be one I'd want to continue in SchH. I'd find another venue to train in.
I do agree, though...go to the club and work with your trainer if you don't know what you are doing.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> You can do it with out putting pressure on the dog, it is a drive building exercise, not a pressure/put into defense exercise. If my dog went into avoidance with that, then I don't think it would be one I'd want to continue in SchH. I'd find another venue to train in.
> I do agree, though...go to the club and work with your trainer if you don't know what you are doing.


The point is that somebody without experience wouldn't know how much pressure he is actually putting on the dog. An inexpirienced handler can do a lot wrong if he can't read his dog or simply doesn't know when to stop.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The puppy is still teething...

Agree with Lisa. The nerve and grip are genetic. Under correct pressure, some dogs that previously showed as strong start to move,shift grip due to pressure and stick......


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I believe it is genetic - my pup had incredibly full, calm grip from day one. He still has that grip months and months later, and I reinforce it with training.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

100% genetic. A good balance between prey and defense results in full and hard grips, good nerve keeps it that way under pressure.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

robk said:


> The reason that I ask is because my pups grip is pure garbage. I have not really been working him that hard in any area as I have not been able to take him out to our club since October and I have not wanted to train him wrong on my own. (he is 7 & 1/2 mo old) I recently introduced him to a leather tug which he attacks with vingence. However he has no bite strength. I can always just pull the tug out of his mouth with very little effort. He bites full but not hard. Is this a develpmental thing because the leather tug is unfamiliar to him and he really don't know how to bite down? Will his strength and bite grow as he matures? Or is a strong bite probably something that I will never have with him if he doesnt have it at an early age?
> Thanks,
> Rob


This isn't a substitute for going to check with your club but a good reference nonetheless. 
feuerhaus's Channel - YouTube


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Ace952 said:


> "...my pups grip is pure garbage." Im sorry but that was funny...lmao!!! I busted out laughing when I read that sentence.
> 
> Now with that out the way...
> 
> How was he when you were going to club training? What were you using before the leather tug?


I am glad I could make you laugh! I have noticed that working dog people tend to be too serious all the time. 

I think the problem is that I do not know what to expect out of him at this stage. We went out to the club for a month when he was around 4 months old but the club started having helpers not come out for a while right when he started teething. I decided to wait until after the 1rst of the year to bring him back out. By that time he will be 8 months old and completely done teething. When he was out there we used a tug that was too big for him but really never did anything but let him chase it around. When he caught it we let him have it. At home I rolled up a burlap sack and let him tug on it but he just started hooking his teeth in the sack and not really biting down on it so I stopped that and ordered a leather puppy tug from leerburg. He really likes it and goes for it with gusto but dosen't seem to really have a strong bite on it. As far as tying him out, I really don't want to do that by myself out of fear of him hurting himself the way he jumps around. I am afraid he will break his neck or something. Next month we are going to start back to the club so I will be able to get some guidance on what to expect. I just was curious as too what people thought about the subject.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Packen....totally agree!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I would say mostly genetic. Training can help, but I think most of it is inborn. Only so much you can do with a dog that doesn't want to work


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Packen said:


> 100% genetic. A good balance between prey and defense results in full and hard grips, good nerve keeps it that way under pressure.


THIS! 

I have two dogs - half siblings - their father has a NICE full, calm, death grip  and Stark is a chewer (weaker nerves) but my little Zefra is taking after her parents. She has had a nice full, calm, crushing grip no matter what is going on around her. Her mother is the same. Can't beat good genetics!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Wild Wolf said:


> I believe it is genetic - my pup had incredibly full, calm grip from day one. He still has that grip months and months later, and I reinforce it with training.


We need to video tape Hunter this weekend at training to show people this. 

You reinforce this with praise/play BUT it was always there - we could see that from the day he came home (even before from the photo's as a tiny puppy).

This puppy (7 months so far) is quite amazing in his grip/hold.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

There are two things that (truly) affect the grip; genetics and attitude. 

Some dog are simply unable to grip well. Even when properly motivated and in the correct frame of mind these dogs, simply, lack the ability to grip well.

On the other-hand, there are dogs that can grip well but do not because they are not in the correct frame of mind to do so.

In the first instance, this is a fault of the dog. In the latter, the fault of the trainer.

Having said this, it is possible to make "false" grips with careful and thoughtful training. However, most lack the ability to do this and more than most lack the ability to maintain it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I believe three things effect how a GSD does anything (drip, bark, heeling, you name it...). Genetics, foundation, training...in that order. When you take a dog and throw him in a new situation and put him out of balance, he will first revert to genetics, then his foundation, and then his training. That is why I feel if I want a dog to behave or perform a certain way, first I need the right genetic recipe, then the foundation to back it up, and then the appropriate training. I pretty much agree with Art. I think grip is what it is, it's genetic. In training you can eff with it but I truly believe a dog with strong genetics is going to always show a strong grip and a dog that lacks genetics for the desirable grip can be encouraged in that direction but put him out of his normal routine/training he's going to revert to genetics. I see this a lot as I have one dog with that by today's SchH standards would be considered lacking in grip and another with a grip so strong and full that no matter what crazy stuff we do in training (and often mess up) we always end up laughing about how the dog's grip never ever changes.


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