# Question on my puppy's food..



## Blacklisted559 (Feb 24, 2019)

So we have had our puppy now for about three weeks now. She is a pure breed and the breeder was feeding her the Royal Canin for GSD puppy. So I continued to feed it to her, after looking at the ingredients the byproducts and corn I was kind of put off on it. So I like the ingredients of Blue bufflo wilderness and it has an increase from the 28% she gets to 35% protein as well. Any thoughts or suggestions for the switch? I have also heard good things about the Royal Canin brand... I just want her to be big and healthy.... any advice would be appreciated


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

You're smart  A lot of people here feed Fromm Large Breed Puppy Gold. I used it for my last two GSD pups and would highly recommend it.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

FROMM's :thumbup:

Family (5th generation) owned and operated. They run ALL areas of their business.
*"Owning and operating our plants allows us to have full control over the quality and safety of the products we produce. This encompasses everything including, sanitation and pest control, facility maintenance, employee training, sourcing of ingredients, in-house lab analysis, preparation of meat and produce, formulation and blending, processing, packaging, warehousing and distribution. 


*Our Approved Supplier Program ensures that ingredients have been tested by our suppliers and are secure and unadulterated until they are received at our plants. The ingredients are sampled and not unloaded until our own on-site testing labs can verify the safety and integrity of the received load. In process testing is also done at our labs to confirm our formulations are complying with guaranteed analysis as stated on our labels. "


https://frommfamily.com/products/dog/gold/dry/#large-breed-puppy-gold 


Moms


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I like the Victor foods. They don't kill your checking account. Are sourced and made here in the U.S. Zero recalls that I know of off hand. And they tell you exactly how much protein from meat/vege/grain in each food.


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## mmags (Nov 30, 2017)

Royal Canin GSD puppy is fine if it is working for your pup and no issues, why switch? Corn isnt the devil and by-products are just organ meats. I would stay away from Fromms even though many here recommend it. Family owned, and friendly people dont really mean anything when it comes to a properly formulated diet. Fromms currently doesnt have any Veterinary Nutritionists full time on staff formulating their products and multiple dogs have been diagnosed with DCM eating their foods. Their animal protein %'s are also low. I like Victor personally and it has always worked well for my dogs.


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## Colorado (Nov 25, 2007)

mmags said:


> I would stay away from Fromms even though many here recommend it. Family owned, and friendly people dont really mean anything when it comes to a properly formulated diet. Fromms currently doesnt have any Veterinary Nutritionists full time on staff formulating their products and multiple dogs have been diagnosed with DCM eating their foods. Their animal protein %'s are also low.


Just curious, Fromm's has both grain free and grain inclusive formulas. Have the DCM diagnoses been with the grain free foods or both?


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## mmags (Nov 30, 2017)

I am not 100% sure, Id have to go check. What is being shown is that its not as simple as grain free or not, its coming down to proper formulation of ingredients working together. Fromm has shown they do not know how to properly formulate their full line of products which would keep me away. They also dont conduct any feeding trials.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

The most recent official message I've seen concerning DCM is a recommendation to avoid foods that contain peas (including pea protein, pea starch, etc.) in the top 10 ingredients. You (the OP) mentioned considering Blue Wilderness as a new food. A quick check of the ingredients of the Blue Wilderness Large Breed Puppy formula shows peas as 3 of the first 10 ingredients (they are 3 of the first 5 actually) ... aside from not trusting Blue Buffalo as a company, I would rule that food out immediately just by a quick glance at the ingredients.

I'm not a huge fan of Royal Canin, personally, but if it works for your dog then maybe stick with it. You could do much worse. If you do decide to change, I would echo a couple of other previous posters, and recommend you take a look at Victor's foods. They have a pretty broad line, including a few high protein, grain-inclusive foods if higher protein is what you are looking for.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mmags said:


> Royal Canin GSD puppy is fine if it is working for your pup and no issues, why switch? Corn isnt the devil and by-products are just organ meats. I would stay away from Fromms even though many here recommend it. Family owned, and friendly people dont really mean anything when it comes to a properly formulated diet. Fromms currently doesnt have any Veterinary Nutritionists full time on staff formulating their products and multiple dogs have been diagnosed with DCM eating their foods. Their animal protein %'s are also low. I like Victor personally and it has always worked well for my dogs.


Corn may actually be the devil. And by products are not "just organ meats".

RC is owned by Mars, who also own Pedigree and various others. They don't have vets on staff they OWN Banfield.


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## brittanyS (Dec 11, 2018)

I've got a five month old puppy that was on Fromm Large Breed Puppy food when I picked him up from the breeder. I wanted to keep him on it, but he had chronic loose poop and the vet suggested trying an elimination diet and prescribed Royal Canin HP, so that's what he's on now. He seems to be handling it much better. I suspect he's actually allergic to the chicken in the Fromm, so that's not necessarily a poor reflection on Fromm and could just be an issue for my puppy. I will say that my puppy seems to like the taste of the Royal Canin much better than the Fromm.

A friend of mine who is now a veterinarian shared a link to this website Questions You Should Be Asking About Your Pet?s Food ? Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School which provided some guidelines on how to choose a good food for your pet. It's kind of a rabbit hole that you can get lost in, but I thought it probably had some good advice as the article is written by a professor at a veterinary school.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

I'm echoing what others say: 1)that* if RC works for your dog, then don't change*. I used RCGSD (mixed it with TOTW Pacific) for my previous one because it was the only one he would eat and he had EPI so changing around was very difficult. While many consider it not a good food, I had no choice. But the good thing is it worked for him and he was able to live to almost 12yo on it. However, for the quality of food that it is, it's quite expensive at around 66 bucks per bag. 2)now I feed Victor for my current dog. Love the brand. Relatively cheaper for a better quality food. Good luck.


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## mmags (Nov 30, 2017)

Yes Mars owns RC and Pedigree but Im not sure your point? Its a business like any other brand and they are diversifying their portfolio to increase profits, nothing wrong with that. Any dog food company is in it to make money, thats the fact. You are wrong about your last statement. Royal Canin has multiple research and testing facilities that test the foods for safety and conduct feeding trials on dogs to see how the food is utilized in regards to digestion, palatability, and disease prevention. You are also wrong about the veterinary statement. Yes Mars owns Banfield, that is not connected to this conversation at all. Banfield is a vet office/hospital chain. What I said was that Royal Canin employs Veterinary Nutritionists and PHD Vet Nutritionist that formulate their diets properly. Most of these "holistic" and family owned companies do not have qualified individuals formulating their foods. They easily dupe people into believing marketing tactics to buy their foods because it appeals to humans. Also, if you are going to claim corn is the devil, provide data to back your statement in relation to K9s because there is plenty of data showing its safety. Royal Canin only uses organs for their by-products, please provide factual evidence showing that is not the case if you're going to make a statement like that.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

I agree with Ken - if it works for your dog, stick with it. A lot of people are confused as to what is safe to feed right now. I'm personally feeding Muenster Milling brand to my two GSDs. If updated guidelines from the FDA with cardiologist recommendations come out, I'll follow them. I already have a dog with a heart condition and would like to do my best to prevent further damage to her or my other two.

@Colorado - as far as I know, it has been both with and without grain.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

mmags, have you read the sworn deposition testimony of a Mars employee about their ingredient sourcing and contamination that was leaked to Susan at TAPF and discussed in here? I think Moms posted a thread about it. You might want to read it before you go to the mat for this company -- maybe it won't matter to you, but you might want to get to know the publicly available details about their sourcing.

We've also posted links to company docs in the past about jobs in China with Mars Petfood division doing R&D and ingredient sourcing. In fact, here's one of those right now, in RC's Shanghai facility -- it leaves no doubt that RC sources raw materials in China:
https://jobs.mars.com/job/Shanghai-RC-Raw-Material-Buyer-and-SQA-Developer-31/505164901/

One of the key responsibilities of this person working in Shanghai: "Find suppliers and Develop wet raw materials to fit Royal Canin needs in term of nutritional profile, product performance, Quality and Food Safety and price."

Again, you may not care about country of origin, but a lot of other consumers do. The melamine deaths of dogs fed many different brands of dog food a few years back were due to contamination of Chinese-sourced ingredients.

I will also say for what feels like the millionth time there is NO CAUSATIVE FINDING as to DCM yet -- just hypothesis and corelations. I know statistics are hard to understand for those who haven't taken a college-level math or science class in perhaps a long time -- but corelations are not proof of causation as to anything, no matter how often people post otherwise on social media. They are grounds for hypothesis and further research -- but attempting to announce that we should draw definitive conclusions at this point is simply not supported by the research yet. We have to wait for more science to be done before we know what's really going on. The last paper listed a range of potential variables that were suspected of being in play. For a while, the chatter was all about taurine. Then peas. Then potatoes. Now breed is in play too. So is the recommended feeding amount (esp. under-feeding to prevent weight gain in dogs with slow metabolisms). They're still trying to figure it out.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I want to follow up with the link to the taurine spreadsheet so that people can see how odd the raw data is -- marginal taurine results are showing up across the spectrum, and even occasional dogs fed Purina Pro Plan, Science Diet, and even few RC dogs have also now shown up with that blood result. Merrick (Purina-owned) is also now represented among low taurine results. We have a good discussion thread already about this, but I know people often don't want to wade through that long thread -- even though it's a good one.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...gOJjsh4cziKZwdA6GEbXTUFJ_M/edit#gid=582733736

In terms of reported DCM, there are a total of 4 dogs reported in this data set with DCM eating Fromm on this summary -- literally, four dogs. Acana has twenty-two. That's how scant the data here is -- researchers are extrapolating from a small pool, and that's why they not yet sure how (or even whether) food contributes to DCM. All they can say is that it "could be" a contributing factor.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...gOJjsh4cziKZwdA6GEbXTUFJ_M/edit#gid=732744787


Per the "about" tab: The researchers are also crystal clear that the data does not mean that any food listed caused DCM, or even that low taurine did. "The science is not to that point yet."


This might be the most useful view of all -- filtering out the Golden Retrievers, who are suspected of having a breed-related issue -- the only Fromm-related low-taurine result in this list is a Goldendoodle (i.e., a Golden mix) and a mixed breed feed 3 brands of food:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...GEbXTUFJ_M/edit#gid=582733736&fvid=1031554703


Note how the look of the data changes once you start controlling for other variables (like breed)? This is why drawing conclusions from early corelations is so challenging!


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## mmags (Nov 30, 2017)

I am aware that correlation does not equal causation. My problem with Fromm is that so many tout it as such a great food here but with no real data to back it up. Fromm admitted they do not have animal nutrition experts on staff, and their response to the taurine scare was to simply throw taurine into their foods, which was stated to not be the solution as the ingredients in formulations are stopping the absorption in the first place. Im pretty sure they're also the only dog food company that puts cheese in their foods. The point is greater than one company though. Many feed Pro Plan and RC with great success and long lives. I just dont see why if someone is feeding RC with good results that they should need to switch because some forum members tell them corn is bad and anything sourced overseas should be avoided. You have no clue if a dog fed RC their whole lives will be worse off than a dog fed something else.


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

IMO RC uses cheap and crappy ingredients. You could do much better for the money. You don't need to be an animal nutritionist to see that.For example corn is a very cheap filler in dog food and often associated with food allergies in dogs. I would prefer to see healthy whole grains instead. I don't even feed my horses corn due to aflatoxins. http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.co...cal-care-aflatoxin-induced-liver-failure-dogs RC uses alot of cheap and crappy ingredients IMO. 



Here's the RC GSD puppy formula: Chicken By-Product Meal, Wheat Gluten, Corn, Oat Groats, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken Fat, Brewers Rice Flour, Brown Rice, Natural Flavors, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Fish Oil


1) Chicken by-product meal is the first and ONLY meat related ingredient. (But where's the muscle meat??? I'm not 100% against by-product meal but only if there are sources of meat or meat meal in the top ingredients too. Dogs eat MEAT. They don't leave the meat and eat just the scrap parts)
*What Are Animal By-Products?*

Animal by-products are what’s left of a slaughtered animal after the parts intended for human consumption have been removed.
This meat processing scrap (known as offal) is considered inedible by many cultures and includes waste material like:


Feet
Backs
Livers
Lungs
Heads
Brains
Spleen
Frames
Kidneys
Stomachs
Intestines
Undeveloped eggs
*Brewers*' *rice* is the small milled fragments of *rice* kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled *rice*. *Brewers*' *rice* is a processed *rice* product that is missing many of the nutrients contained in whole ground *rice* and brown *rice* thus reducing the quality. (why not use all brown rice? Because it is cheaper to throw in cheap crap like brewer's rice).


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hmmmm, 
Here's one of "The Big Guy's" (Hill's) that make claims of safety checks of their pet foods, but it appears that they are not so truthful! :shocked: 

I wonder how many other big named companies are not truthful in all their claims????

"Hill’s Pet Nutrition is facing a slew of consumer lawsuits linked to their January 2019 excess Vitamin D recalls. 


Filed on February 26, 2019 in the Central District of California, pet owners versus Hill’s Pet Nutrition; a class action lawsuit. The lawsuit states they bring this suit against Hill’s for (bold added):
“_their negligent, reckless, and/or intentional practice of misrepresenting, *failing to test for*, and failing to fully disclose the presence of *toxic levels of Vitamin D* in their Contaminated Dog Foods (defined below) and for selling Contaminated Dog Foods that are adulterated and do not conform to the labels, packaging, advertising, and statements throughout the United States_.”​This lawsuit quotes several claims from the Hill’s website including these two (*that the recall proved are not accurate claims*):"

(g) “We conduct* final safety checks daily* on every Hill’s pet food
product *to help ensure the safety *of your pet’s food.”


(h) “Additionally, *all finished products are physically inspected and tested for key nutrients prior to release* to help ensure your pet gets a consistent product bag to bag.”


Above Article: 
https://truthaboutpetfood.com/seven-...pet-nutrition/





Truth About Pet Food presents things we would never know about! Susan Thixton's site is definitely an education on pet foods! 


"*no pet owner will know which pet food will contain rendered decomposing drowned animals from Hurricane Florence."* 

"Decomposing animal tissue in ANY food (human food or animal food) is a direct violation of the Federal Food Drug and Cosmetic Act.

_“§342. Adulterated food – A food shall be deemed to be adulterated-_

_(a) Poisonous, insanitary, etc., ingredients_
_(3) if it consists in whole or in part of any filthy, putrid, or decomposed substance”_

*Sad, but true…No one at FDA or North Carolina Department of Agriculture (or any Department of Agriculture) enforces this law." *

*https://truthaboutpetfood.com/milli...ing-livestock-animals-allowed-to-be-rendered/ 
*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wouldn't feed Royal Canin and I would not feed 35% protein to a puppy. 

I am currently feeding Earthborn Holistic, but only the Meadowland Feast to puppies. You want the proper protein to fat ratio for puppies, as well as calcium/phosphorus ratio. 

Yes, some foods have by products that you and I would not find tempting. But from the time that dogs were domesticated, they have eaten the parts of critters, you and I would not eat. No one here bats and eye about feeding bully sticks to dogs. But how many of us would eat bull penises. Dogs don't care, it's just meat to them. And organ meat like spleen and heart and lung and liver is all stuff that they not only will eat, but probably like, and when feeding raw, need both organ meat and muscle. Eggs, that's not a problem. Intestines -- ew. But again, with processing, it probably not as bad as it sounds. 

Why I don't approve of Royal Canin is because the ingredient list does not merit the price tag. You can get a better list of ingredients from Kirkland, Victor, or Diamond Naturals, at a much better price per pound. So, you're being robbed feeding Royal Canin because they have a cool marketing scheme where they can make minor changes to the formula and call Rottweiler36 or GSD24, and you think that they have created a formula for your dog specifically. The answer is that in just German Shepherds, one 2 year old dog may not do nearly as well as another 2 year old dog on the same food. 

It's just a racket. We get spoofed because the GSD on the label is cute. Or because the food says grain-free. Or the food says Holistic, or Organic, or made from free-range chickens, or we put prayer on our ingredient list, or we use special unicorn flatulence that improves health and obedience.


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## Colorado (Nov 25, 2007)

selzer said:


> I wouldn't feed Royal Canin and I would not feed 35% protein to a puppy.
> 
> I am currently feeding Earthborn Holistic, but only the Meadowland Feast to puppies. You want the proper protein to fat ratio for puppies, as well as calcium/phosphorus ratio.


Hmmm...question. I picked Victor Nutra Pro to start with my new puppy. It has 38% protein, 18% fat. An older Q & A I found on dog food advisor said you should aim for a 2 : 1 protein to fat ratio. In this case 38% seems fine? I do get that some dogs don't like that high of a fat content but that is a separate issue.

Am I missing something? Is there another reason you say you would not feed 35% protein to a puppy? After over thinking this and too much research I thought I had settled on a decent choice. Thanks.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Colorado said:


> Hmmm...question. I picked Victor Nutra Pro to start with my new puppy. It has 38% protein, 18% fat. An older Q & A I found on dog food advisor said you should aim for a 2 : 1 protein to fat ratio. In this case 38% seems fine? I do get that some dogs don't like that high of a fat content but that is a separate issue.
> 
> Am I missing something? Is there another reason you say you would not feed 35% protein to a puppy? After over thinking this and too much research I thought I had settled on a decent choice. Thanks.


While Dog Food Adviser is well intended, I would not use it as a sole source for information. It's great for the basics, but I wouldn't rely on it as the bottom line. 

This is an article I recommend reading to understand feeding choices: https://ivcjournal.com/feeding-large-breed-puppies/


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Colorado said:


> Hmmm...question. I picked Victor Nutra Pro to start with my new puppy. It has 38% protein, 18% fat. An older Q & A I found on dog food advisor said you should aim for a 2 : 1 protein to fat ratio. In this case 38% seems fine? I do get that some dogs don't like that high of a fat content but that is a separate issue.
> 
> Am I missing something? Is there another reason you say you would not feed 35% protein to a puppy? After over thinking this and too much research I thought I had settled on a decent choice. Thanks.


I've been feeding GSD puppies, protein:fat ration around 26-27%protein:15-17% fat. Too high or too low in protein can cause nutrition deficits that cause problems like down pasterns, while overage in calcium can cause calcium deposits in the joints. I do feed an adult kibble, but the other three varieties of the food I feed have higher protein and lower fat, and I contacted the company to verify that the lamb is suitable for puppies.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Both my Gsd pups were on fromm gold large breed puppy. I had no growth issues, solid stools, no itchy skin and both grew to be muscular energetic athletic dogs. I like the calcium/phosphorous/ and protein levels for growing pups. Depending on your local feed store - many have buy 12 bags get one bag free program through fromm.


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## Colorado (Nov 25, 2007)

Femfa said:


> While Dog Food Adviser is well intended, I would not use it as a sole source for information. It's great for the basics, but I wouldn't rely on it as the bottom line.
> 
> This is an article I recommend reading to understand feeding choices: https://ivcjournal.com/feeding-large-breed-puppies/


Please understand that I'm not trying to argue I'm trying to learn. I went into this assuming everything I had done with my previous dogs was wrong or based on recommendations that have now changed. Hence the overthinking and too much research. From the article you linked:



> Most nutritionists recommend that large, fast growing puppies eat diets containing at least 30% protein and 9% fat (dry matter basis).


I'm reading at least 30%. That particular recommendation doesn't talk about a max protein content.



> In another example, a major OTC adult maintenance dry diet contains 22% protein [...snip...] the protein content is adequate but a little marginal for growth.


Again this seems to suggest that 30+% protein is the target?



> A dry matter content of about 30% protein, 9% fat, 1.5% calcium and 0.8% to 1% phosphorus. The calcium : phosphorus ratio should be between 1:1 to 1.3:1.


The final summary mentions 30% again but this time seems to cap it with "around". That's the first time a cap is suggested--appearing in the summary which is odd. There are references so I guess I could follow the trail but--sigh--why is this such a black art?

Interestingly that line in the summary suggests a max on the calcium to phosphorus of 1.3:1. Most other places give a range of 1:1 to 1.8:1. As it turns out the Victor Nutra Pro has a 1.2:1 ratio but again no one seems to agree on anything. Or rather they agree in general terms but the details are all over the place.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Colorado said:


> Please understand that I'm not trying to argue I'm trying to learn. I went into this assuming everything I had done with my previous dogs was wrong or based on recommendations that have now changed. Hence the overthinking and too much research. From the article you linked:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It actually does quote a protein range, shortly after the intro:

“A common misconception found in many internet articles is the claim that dietary protein should be controlled in large breed puppies to prevent skeletal abnormalities. This theory was disproved some years ago (Nap, 1991). Most commercial puppy foods contain more protein than is thought necessary, but studies have shown that protein contents of 23% to 31% (dry matter) do not have a deleterious effect on growth. “

The calcium to phosphorous ratio is due to absorption rates of the body based on how the two interact with other growth processes and hormones in the body. Past a certain point, a ratio that’s unbalanced from that range affects skeletal growth:

“The maintenance of a constant level of calcium in the blood as well as an adequate supply of calcium and phosphorus in cells is critical for the function of all body organs, but particularly for the nerves and muscle. Therefore, a complex system of regulatory hormones has developed that helps to maintain adequate supplies of these minerals in a variety of situations. These hormones act not only on bone but on other tissues, such as the intestine and the kidney, to regulate the supply of these elements. Thus one reason that bone health is difficult to maintain is that the skeleton is simultaneously serving two different functions that are in competition with each other.”

- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK45504/ 

While the above article is in regards to humans, the underlying processes of growth and physiological pathways of calcium and phosphorous are the same. Research from specialists has shown that there is an ideal range, and this is why AAFCO must put whether or not the food is safe for specific breeds at specific stages.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mmags said:


> I am aware that correlation does not equal causation. My problem with Fromm is that so many tout it as such a great food here but with no real data to back it up. Fromm admitted they do not have animal nutrition experts on staff, and their response to the taurine scare was to simply throw taurine into their foods, which was stated to not be the solution as the ingredients in formulations are stopping the absorption in the first place. Im pretty sure they're also the only dog food company that puts cheese in their foods. The point is greater than one company though.* Many feed Pro Plan and RC with great success and long lives. I just dont see why if someone is feeding RC with good results that they should need to switch because some forum members tell them corn is bad and anything sourced overseas should be avoided*. You have no clue if a dog fed RC their whole lives will be worse off than a dog fed something else.


Because the problem with these foods is that they may be fine, until they are not and with cheap, unverified ingredients and sourcing the results could be catastrophic.
It's been confirmed for better then 10 years that no pet products from China are safe, that's why most reputable pet stores will not stock them and in light of the past monkey business with China selling to other countries who in turn export to Canada and the US I simply what full disclosure.
And lets be honest Mars and Nestle have proved less then forth coming, and in some cases downright deceitful. And for those who may not be aware RC is owned by Mars. And their testing involves, or did, blind taste tests with dogs. Not really science if you consider what some of our dogs would choose to eat.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I said corn may be the devil, I was asked for proof. Pretty much the only corn grown in the US that is not GMO is sweet corn, and you can bet it ain't going into dog food.
https://www.naturalhealth365.com/gmo-genetically-modified-organisms-2128.html


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Femfa said:


> It actually does quote a protein range, shortly after the intro:
> 
> “A common misconception found in many internet articles is the claim that dietary protein should be controlled in large breed puppies to prevent skeletal abnormalities. This theory was disproved some years ago (Nap, 1991). Most commercial puppy foods contain more protein than is thought necessary, but studies have shown that protein contents of 23% to 31% (dry matter) do not have a deleterious effect on growth. “
> 
> ...


Not trying to argue, but do you think that the studies on the specifically targeted down pasterns in German Shepherds? I mean, it is not that common that every dog whose protein is out of line gets the condition. I have stayed within a range that long-time breeders have used, and I have avoided the condition in my dogs. But whether the lines do not have the genetic component of that going on, or if I have successfully avoided it is unknown. 

Still, sometimes it is better to go with what experienced breeders have found over veterinarians, because the breeders' focus is on one dog breed, where veterinarians are seeing 200+ dog breeds and mixes and cats and birds and reptiles, etc. Their knowledge base is wide, but in a lot of cases more shallow because of how wide it must be. Since this condition only shows up in some dogs, studies might not have captured it. It does seem that changes in protein in affected dogs has improved the situation. 

Also, pano seems to be improved when feeding more appropriate levels of protein and fat. Sometimes. 

I think that a strong dog food company, like Fromm might have a better handle on this than veterinarians because they have a dog in the fight, and have feedback that might really help them. Most dog food companies I wouldn't trust either to be thorough about data/feedback.


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## Colorado (Nov 25, 2007)

I hope you can see the source of my confusion. That one article says:


> ...but studies have shown that protein contents of 23% to 31% (dry matter) do not have a deleterious effect on growth.


and:


> Most nutritionists recommend that large, fast growing puppies eat diets containing at least 30% protein...


and under the summary recommendations:


> A dry matter content of about 30% protein...


So in a single source I'm seeing 23-30%, at least 30%, and about 30% with no specification on what "about" means.

I suppose I should not be surprised. I mean dietary recommendations for humans are as wide and varied as the people making them. Just as example, throughout my life eggs have been considered part of a well-balanced breakfast then very bad for you then the yolks were bad but the egg whites OK, then bad again, to more recently just fine in moderation. 

In terms of my choices I guess I am feeling OK. Once I get him fully transferred to Nutra Pro I want to rotate in other proteins. Victor has a number of grain-inclusive products that have protein percentages in the 23-26% range. On average that will put the diet in the "about" 30% range. Not sure what I can do beyond that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Colorado said:


> I hope you can see the source of my confusion. That one article says:
> 
> and:
> 
> ...


Yes, this is one veterinarians recommendation. Maybe she is wonderful, I don't know. But she is talking about large breed puppies which probably spans everything from the size of a German Shepherd/Lab/Golden to English Mastiffs, which will be over 200 pounds at the same point a shepherd will be around 70 pounds. Dogs range in size from about 4 pounds to 260 pounds. And, yeah they are going to require different nutrition at different points. 

And this is why I suggest listening to breeders, they at least have experience feeding the breed you are working with. And we all know that you can have 3 GSDs and be feeding them 3 different foods. There is a lot of physical variation in this breed. We have dogs that never go above 79 pounds and other dogs that are easily 30 pounds above that. And you think, 30 pounds what's that? But it is 30% for a 100 pound dog, and for an 80 pound dog, its 37.5% if the math in my head is right. And some pups are fully grown heightwise by 10 months, and others continue to grow upwards until 24 months. Of course there is no one-size-fits-all food. Your best bet bet is to listen to your breeder if you trust him/her, as they have the experience with the genetics within your dog. Without that, take into consideration what other GSD breeders say and try to keep up with calorie intake, while keeping protein/fat and calcium/phosphorous ratios good. 

Read, read, read all you can. Vets are not always your best source of advice. They take something like 1 class in nutrition, and that class was developed by Purina many years ago. They will often encourage Science Diet and Iams because those companies have targeted vets in their marketing schemes. Those foods are marginally better than Generic Dog Food -- Ole Roy. And vets will openly blanch if you mention feeding raw food or homemade food. And they probably HAVE seen problems with folks doing this, because some folks just throw some chicken at the dog and think, I'm feeding raw. Others may be supplementing Ca without doing anything about phosphorous. And so much more.


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## Colorado (Nov 25, 2007)

selzer said:


> Read, read, read all you can.


I got that part covered, don't worry. If you look up overthinking in the new puppy ownership dictionary you'll find my picture. :grin2:

I think my main problem is my educational background is in the hard sciences. I am used to theories being tested and either validated or not. When I see people take a single study involving a handful of dogs and then making sweeping, definitive conclusions I can't help but think "That isn't science!" I know that's the most rigorous a field like nutrition can get but it still bothers me.

In general while I am always trying to learn more I've told myself not to overthink or panic. You want to do your best based on what you know. But if I use a diet with 28% protein and my puppy gets an issue I can't think, "OMG what did I do? I should have been at 26%!" The "science" of it is just not that exact.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

selzer said:


> Not trying to argue, but do you think that the studies on the specifically targeted down pasterns in German Shepherds? I mean, it is not that common that every dog whose protein is out of line gets the condition. I have stayed within a range that long-time breeders have used, and I have avoided the condition in my dogs. But whether the lines do not have the genetic component of that going on, or if I have successfully avoided it is unknown.
> 
> Still, sometimes it is better to go with what experienced breeders have found over veterinarians, because the breeders' focus is on one dog breed, where veterinarians are seeing 200+ dog breeds and mixes and cats and birds and reptiles, etc. Their knowledge base is wide, but in a lot of cases more shallow because of how wide it must be. Since this condition only shows up in some dogs, studies might not have captured it. It does seem that changes in protein in affected dogs has improved the situation.
> 
> ...


I would agree that in general, a breeder is going to have a better understanding of specific ailments within a breed. 
They have more connections, see more dogs, and dedicate their lives to understanding what they and others produce. It's far more specialized. Not all research we see will take into account whether the dogs are from health-tested parents, look at the pedigrees (we know there are dogs out there that have produced horrible ailments), or look at diet or exercise, just as a few examples. 

Until there's a study on the breed, done throughout P1/P2 - F1/2/3 etc... it's hard to say in regards to joint development. There's so many specific genes involved, some that interact during development and then become in conflict with one another later in life. We know that a diet too high in protein is related to arthritic problems, but too high is different for each individual. Protein quality, source of protein (animal vs. plant), etc. all play a role. An appropriate and quality diet doesn't ensure longevity, but it can help it if the genetics are there.

Unfortunately we can't always trust that a dog food company will have a dog's best interest in mind, though obviously a lot of vets don't either. If you have had the chance to look into Taurine Deficient Cardiomyopathy, Fromm is a so-called culprit. So are other high quality brands. They are aware of these issues, and no changes have been made at the moment. It may change as money is what talks. While the understanding so far is that it is only a correlation, we do also know that with dietary changes there have been improvements and in many cases, regression of the disease if it is not in late stages. There are some foods with zero known incidence as of this moment, and some with high incidence of the disease. 




Colorado said:


> I got that part covered, don't worry. If you look up overthinking in the new puppy ownership dictionary you'll find my picture. :grin2:
> 
> I think my main problem is my educational background is in the hard sciences. I am used to theories being tested and either validated or not. When I see people take a single study involving a handful of dogs and then making sweeping, definitive conclusions I can't help but think "That isn't science!" I know that's the most rigorous a field like nutrition can get but it still bothers me.
> 
> In general while I am always trying to learn more I've told myself not to overthink or panic. You want to do your best based on what you know. But if I use a diet with 28% protein and my puppy gets an issue I can't think, "OMG what did I do? I should have been at 26%!" The "science" of it is just not that exact.


I also have a background in the hard sciences, and I agree that it makes it very difficult to feel comfortable or confident in what to do because there is a lot of research - some good, some bad. But as you know, where the information comes from and how it came about is far more important than what that information might be. 

When you're looking at feeding your dog, at the end of the day you simply feed the dog in front of you. Your dog may never tolerate high protein levels, or if your dog is like mine, might do poorly on kibble formulations that are low protein (within the 23-25% range). The food you might want to feed might result in a sensitivity or intolerance, and now you're back at square one trying to find a food you approve of and feel comfortable feeding. The diet you might want for your dog based on your research may never work for your dog. So sometimes you have to take the scientific, logical thinking aspect out of some of it and simply look at what your dog does well on. Keep certain guidelines in mind for the well being of your dog, especially during growth and development, but really there are no absolutes when it comes to nutrition. There are dogs that live on scraps and live longer and look healthier than a dog fed on the highest quality kibble money can buy.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Femfa said:


> If you have had the chance to look into Taurine Deficient Cardiomyopathy, Fromm is a so-called culprit.





3/1/19 Email from Lori at Fromm's:
_Our recipes are all meat protein dominant, and we only use ingredients from suppliers who adhere to our strict quality and safety standards. Additionally, Fromm has been supplementing with taurine for many years. Each batch undergoes several inspections including raw ingredient testing, in-processing testing, and a final PCT (Product Consistency Test) which tests for everything from protein, fat, fiber and moisture to the presence of unwanted contaminates or pathogenic bacteria that could be problematic. Our final product is held on site until our PCT clears it for distribution, and only after that is complete do we allow the food to ship to the retailers._


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Momto2GSDs said:


> 3/1/19 Email from Lori at Fromm's:
> _Our recipes are all meat protein dominant, and we only use ingredients from suppliers who adhere to our strict quality and safety standards. Additionally, Fromm has been supplementing with taurine for many years. Each batch undergoes several inspections including raw ingredient testing, in-processing testing, and a final PCT (Product Consistency Test) which tests for everything from protein, fat, fiber and moisture to the presence of unwanted contaminates or pathogenic bacteria that could be problematic. Our final product is held on site until our PCT clears it for distribution, and only after that is complete do we allow the food to ship to the retailers._




If there are any “suspect” ingredients in the formula, it doesn’t seem to matter if taurine is supplemented because they are blocking the metabolic pathways for taurine to do its job. Dogs are being tested for their blood taurine levels, those levels are coming back within normal range, and then further testing through an echocardiogram shows DCM because of taurine deficiency. 

I’m not saying Fromm is a bad food. Nor am I saying this is the end-all-be-all of science for this issue. But it is an issue, and dogs on certain Fromm formulations have had the disease from diet induced taurine deficiency.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

I was also overwhelmed trying to figure out what to feedback my puppy.. My local pet store owner suggested one brand. My vet suggested another. My parents suggested yet another. And my dog trainer suggested yet another! I had no clue what to do. I tried a few different foods including Fromm’s. All were just ok. Some did cause allergy issues. Some loose stool. 

I did some research myself and kinda realized that I don’t want to feed my dog kibble that’s been on a shelf in a warehouse for a year. We now feed our dog Just Food for Dogs. Her coat is way shinier, and she’s happier. The vet said he even noticed a huge difference. Not to mention her poop is the best it’s ever been (TMI?! Haha). She eats chicken and rice and veggies right now but we’ll probably try another meal plan later. 

Obviously I know this isn’t for everyone. My SO and I don’t have kids so we spend our money on our animals haha.


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