# E-Collar Training - Need Advice



## cmscott (Jun 29, 2011)

Hello all,
Posting today to elicit some advice on E-collar training. I want to start using the E-collar to proof the behaviors that my boy already knows as well as fine tuning his off-leash behavior. I teach behaviors with reward-only methods in the beginning. Then I will use leash corrections to instill obedience and now I am at the point where I want to proof certain behaviors that I am sure he knows cold. 

All things considered, he is pretty darn obedient. This is my first GSD and I can't really say that I've had to deal with any substantial behavioral issues. At least ones that I haven't been able to handle. I can honestly say that mostly stems from all of the great advice I've found on this forum. 

I am leaning towards the e-collar for a few reasons:

1.) It will allow me to issue a correction at a moments notice, essentially I want him to learn that I am _always_ in control. IMO, people sometimes look to the GSD to be in control, whereas my experience has been that they do much better when they know that you are the one making the decisions. 

2.) I think it will allow me to very effectively put things in black & white for my dog. I've struggled with this as a newbie dog trainer. Desired behavior = treats/toys/praise. Undesired behavior = correction. (talking about behavior that he knows cold) My boy does well with black and white and I think that an e-collar will allow me to turn that corner with consistency. 

3.) My dog is a pet first and foremost. However, I want a high level of training and obedience in my pet.

My boy is medium-high drive with A- nerves (he is still only 10months) and an A+ temperament. I am confident he will be able to handle an e-collar correction though he is not a "hard" dog.

Leash corrections just seem to be annoying to him in that I feel that I am only effectively correcting him about 60% of the time. Most of the time he is just like WTF?


Thoughts? I would love to hear from both the E-collar lovers and the haters. I know you guys are out there. Tell me why I am an idiot or why I am spot on! I would love for someone to tell me to go back to the drawing board before I venture into the E-collar world without the proper knowledge.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

timing is everything in the world of correction.

i'd work on getting the timing down with the prong collar, so if/when you transfer to an e-collar, you'll be ahead of the game.

i can't remember where i read it (forgot to bookmark it), but there's an excellent write up on how to properly introduce your dog to an e-collar, and also how to properly use one. From the writeup, the e-collar is an annoyance that your dog has the ability to turn off. it was a really good writeup, i hope someone can direct you to it, and apologize for not being able too.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Look up Lou Castle's website


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## cmscott (Jun 29, 2011)

I have Ed Frawley's E-collar video and I have read a good amount of Lou Castle's stuff. They seem to have diverging theories that have made a bit more confused. Both sound logical and I am sure they both work but I lean towards Ed's Frawley's because it seems to be more "precise" in that Lou Castle's method of engaging stimulation before the command might confuse my dog and create a higher probability of associating the stim with environmental factors and not me. Whereas, using a "nick" as a correction is much more analogous to a leash pop and would play better into creating a nice black & white world for my dog.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

that's it !!

thanks Michelle

Fit An Ecollar


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

One way uses the E as a form of guidance and the other purely as a correction. I prefer Lou's methods.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

cmscott said:


> Hello all,
> Posting today to elicit some advice on E-collar training. I want to start using the E-collar to proof the behaviors that my boy already knows as well as fine tuning his off-leash behavior. I teach behaviors with reward-only methods in the beginning. Then I will use leash corrections to instill obedience and now I am at the point where I want to proof certain behaviors that I am sure he knows cold.
> 
> All things considered, he is pretty darn obedient. This is my first GSD and I can't really say that I've had to deal with any substantial behavioral issues. At least ones that I haven't been able to handle. I can honestly say that mostly stems from all of the great advice I've found on this forum.
> ...


 
Hi cmscott

I really don't understand why you are even considering using a shock collar on your 10 month old, especially as you say he is pretty obedient anyway. 

As this is your first dog, it sounds to me like you are doing really well with what you're doing. 

What behaviours to you want to proof ? 
_____________
Sue


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## cmscott (Jun 29, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Hi cmscott
> 
> I really don't understand why you are even considering using a shock collar on your 10 month old, especially as you say he is pretty obedient anyway.
> 
> ...


Well, eventually I plan on proofing all of them. I tend to have the view regarding E-collars that they are not reserved for problem dogs. I am considering them as a training tool because I feel they allow a trainer to have excellent consistency. I really look at them as a "wireless leash".

And I haven't even bought one yet so he will be closer to a year before I would really begin using one.

Off-leash recall is what I am focused on proofing first. Off-leash training seems to be the best application for the E-collar but it also seems that it would be good all around because I would be able to improve consistency substantially. 

Because he is obedient thus far, I just feel that I won't have to use it much once he becomes "collar-literate". I just want him to know that I can reach out and touch him at all times. He is starting to realize that he is much faster and more agile than I am. 

Bottom line: Dog training is a breeze if you are consistent. I feel that few other training methods would allow me to reach a level of consistency that matches the E-collar.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

cmscott said:


> Well, eventually I plan on proofing all of them. I tend to have the view regarding E-collars that they are not reserved for problem dogs. I am considering them as a training tool because I feel they allow a trainer to have excellent consistency. I really look at them as a "wireless leash".
> 
> And I haven't even bought one yet so he will be closer to a year before I would really begin using one.
> 
> ...


If you think that dog training is a breeze if you are consistent, that's all you really need to be.

It sound like you've already decided what you're going to do - but just incase you're open to suggestions: 

I honestly think all you need is kind treatment, consistancy and most of all make yourself the centre of your dogs world. Have fun with him, play tug, ball, hide and seek, chase, football etc. Don't control your dogs walks off road - allow him freedom to explore, by using a long line, or a good quality extended lead (not many people on here like those - but I think they're great if used safely) call him back to you regularly and play with him and really praise him - give him a really tasty treat, if he values treats - mine doesn't. 

Keep your leashed walks interesting by changing direction regularly, speeding up and slowing down, so he has to pay attention to you - talk to your dog, don't walk in silence, and praise him when he's doing what you want, such as walking nicely. 

Make sure your recall is 100% at home - then 100% on a long line before you let him off leash outside where there are distractions. 

Make sure he knows a rock solid leave it, wait, stop and sit, and practice when on a long line. Pay attention to your surroundings, so that you can act before problems arise. 

GSD's love their owners so much they don't tend to roam far - you'll find that if you run away from your dog, he'll soon be after you.

Give it your best shot first - and you'll find you won't need a shock collar.

Enroll him in agility or whatever sport you think he'd be good at, if you want to - he'll then get used to having other dogs and distraction around. 

Take him to shopping malls, or wherever you can where he will see lots of people, dogs, prams, bikes etc. great places to practice diverting his attention to you.

Do you intend to enter competions or will your dog be first a foremost a family pet? 
_________________
Sue


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

cmscott said:


> Well, eventually I plan on proofing all of them. I tend to have the view regarding E-collars that they are not reserved for problem dogs. I am considering them as a training tool because I feel they allow a trainer to have excellent consistency. I really look at them as a "wireless leash".
> 
> And I haven't even bought one yet so he will be closer to a year before I would really begin using one.
> 
> ...



good plan


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Everybody's situation is different. I had to have an remote collar because I live on a farm and wild critters are all over my yard all the time. I can't have a dog going one on one with a raccoon or a possum or a stray cat. My GSD pup was pretty good on recall but not when he was in pursuit of a coyote. 

Military precision isn't my thing now, and when it was I got it using treats, but competitions are in a controlled environment. I've watched all the Sit Means Sit videos and they really get results using remote collars. There are down sides to using remotes and IMHO, nagging a dog into quicker responses isn't worth it. On the other hand, if your dog ever refuses to recall, do what you gotta do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Marnie said:


> Everybody's situation is different. I had to have an remote collar because I live on a farm and wild critters are all over my yard all the time. I can't have a dog going one on one with a raccoon or a possum or a stray cat. My GSD pup was pretty good on recall but not when he was in pursuit of a coyote.
> 
> Military precision isn't my thing now, and when it was I got it using treats, but competitions are in a controlled environment. I've watched all the Sit Means Sit videos and they really get results using remote collars. There are down sides to using remotes and IMHO, nagging a dog into quicker responses isn't worth it. On the other hand, if your dog ever refuses to recall, do what you gotta do.


:thumbup:


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I agree with Marnie,

I started using Ecollar on Koda at 10months. He will not leave the cat alone, he will chase and nip him. E collar fixed that problem quickly. We only used the ecollar for a good week, it's packed away now. I'm sure we will use it again.

The e collar did not cause any damage whatsover on Koda, he is a stable solid dog, his drive and temperament remains the same.


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## BlackJack (Jun 23, 2011)

I just completed Immo training with Lou Castle;s protocol, with nothing but great results from it. His recall has never been better, I put him into a long sit or down now, his sit/stay and down/stay is vastly improved. I even some control over him when he is highly aroused. I currently work with a level 12 out of 127 on a Dogtra 1900NCP, only regret is I didn't spent the extra 50 or so for the fast recharge model.


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## cmscott (Jun 29, 2011)

Hello All,

So I just bought a Dogtra 1900NCP today and I was hoping to tap some of the endless knowledge on this forum for exactly which type of training theory I should use going forward.

I have done a solid amount of research on e-collar training theory and I have read the Lou Castle stuff and I have Ed Frawley's E-collar DVD and I am stuck because both theories seem logical enough to me to seem like reasonable options but I can't really decide on which is best.

I see the the two different theories that most people advocate as: 

1.) Ed Frawley: The people who use the "nick" feature as a correction for not obeying a command. Typically the stim is used in concert with the NO command. 

2.) Lou Castle: The people who use the "continuos" feature by applying stim while the command is given and releasing the stim as soon as the desired behavior is executed.

After quite a bit of research and going back and forth, I was leaning towards the Lou Castle Camp until I recently came across another theory that seemed to be a hybrid of the two:
(Note: Credit goes to JKlatsky on the forum for where I came across this idea.)

3.) The stim is loaded much like a clicker in that the dog is heavily treated when the stim is applied. The idea being to create an association in the dogs mind where the stim means: PAY ATTENTION - IMMINENT TREATS! In the post I read, there was a decreased likelihood of your dog developing neurotic behaviors using this method. I am really intrigued by using the E-collar to positively motivate attention.

Theory 1.) Stim=correction

Theory 2.) Stim=negative motivation

Theory 3.) Stim=positive motivation

Sorry, I was a Philosophy Major in college so I get tied up in theories, regardless of what they seek to explain. Clearly dogs have been effectively trained using all three, and quite frankly they all seem like a pretty good way to go. 

I was hoping someone could set me straight. I'd really love to hear from people who use the E-Collar as a positive motivator.

Thanks in advance. I don't know what I would do without this place. 

- cmscott


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never used an e-collar or a prong. to proof my dogs
i do whatever they learned over and over and for off leash
and distance control i use hand signals.


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## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

I started using an e-collar on my dog when he was around 10 mos old. I originally started using it because it was "playing" with the horses. Even though we had done proper introductions on leash. My one horse is somewhat younger and likes to "play" back with the dogs if they start so it's important for the dogs just not to start play behavior with them. My other dogs were very good about this but Lucas didn't seem to get it. The e-collar fixed that very quickly and he rarely needs it around horses now. He was even a barn dog at a stable in Florida for several months. 

Now we do use the e-collar off leash. He didn't need it but like others I feel like it was like an insurance policy. In NY my family lives on 170 acres and there's critters etc. I don't worry about him chasing them unless it's towards the road. Then I need to KNOW he's going to listen.

My method of using the e-collar is using it as a correction. I rarely have to use a nick. I usually only have to use the audible beeping noise if anything. My dog's set at a 1.5 level out of 5 which feels like a vibrate if you shock yourself. Granted, if you crank it up to 5 it hurts like heck. I don't use it to train new behaviors, only for off leash behaviors and to ensure I have control of him no matter what.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

For recall, there are 2 things that can help to improve it - one is to have your dog getting used to different stimuli from environment, so that the more he gets used to different ones, the less he would react; and another is to get him used to pay more attention and follow you, simply by often walking around without paying attention to him and only calling him sometimes, as well as disappear from his sight if he doesn't pay attention and come when called, so that he realized that if he doesn't pay attention, he will lose sight of you.

I'm not familiar with e-collar training, although I'm also interested to learn as I've got an e-collar. I've got it for correction actually, for excess barking as well as some undesired behaviors like going after stuffs I don't want him to destroy or are even dangerous to him. This is coz I can't find another way to change these behaviors, and if I address/correct it, he would just continue doing it anyways since he would associate the punishment with me and not the action/stuff, and so he would just do it when he knows I'm not near.

Maybe you can try the intensity of the shock/stimulation before putting it on your dog? But well, dogs' skin is probably less sensitive than ours.

I would take the dog's temperament and confident into consideration before trying e-collar thought, to make sure it wouldn't have any traumatic effect and it does help the dog to be better trained.

By the way, I've read about some experiments done with e-collars from wikipedia, and they were interesting. It seems that if dogs can know when they might expect corrections then they won't get stressed in the long run (like if they get corrected very time they approach sheeps), but if they can't understand why they get corrected (by being corrected randomly), then they can feel constantly stressed in the environment that they got randomly corrected. There was also a study that showed that dogs that were trained for recall using e-collars were stressed during their walks off-leash compared to the ones that weren't trained with one (but you have to read it to understand the details).


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

cmscott said:


> I have Ed Frawley's E-collar video and I have read a good amount of Lou Castle's stuff. They seem to have diverging theories that have made a bit more confused. Both sound logical and I am sure they both work but I lean towards Ed's Frawley's because it seems to be more "precise" in that Lou Castle's method of engaging stimulation before the command might confuse my dog and create a higher probability of associating the stim with environmental factors and not me. Whereas, using a "nick" as a correction is much more analogous to a leash pop and would play better into creating a nice black & white world for my dog.


Mr. F's methods do not show the dog why the stim is occurring. It's easy for a dog to guess wrong, especially since his level of stim is relatively much higher. My method makes it impossible for a dog to make any mistake about why it's happening. And my work is done at the level where the dog first feels the stim.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

cmscott said:


> After quite a bit of research and going back and forth, I was leaning towards the Lou Castle Camp until I recently came across another theory that seemed to be a hybrid of the two:
> 
> 3.) The stim is loaded much like a clicker in that the dog is heavily treated when the stim is applied. The idea being to create an association in the dogs mind where the stim means: PAY ATTENTION - IMMINENT TREATS! In the post I read, there was a decreased likelihood of your dog developing neurotic behaviors using this method. I am really intrigued by using the E-collar to positively motivate attention.
> 
> I was hoping someone could set me straight. I'd really love to hear from people who use the E-Collar as a positive motivator.


You'll find very few people who are doing this. It takes a very fine touch and since the dog's distraction level can change from second to second, it's very difficult to find the proper level for every situation. I'd not advocate this method for a beginner or even for someone who's quite experienced with the Ecollar.


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## cmscott (Jun 29, 2011)

Lou - Thanks for the response. I read your critique of Ed Frawley's E-Collar DVD and then I re-watched it. I certainly have a different perspective now and I am glad that I took the time to really evaluate my options before jumping in to E-Collar training. I am going to use your method.

I do have a question though. My collar arrives today actually and I wanted your insight on how to introduce the collar to my dog. Should I take some time to let him wear it around and get used to it before I start training? 

I had planned on letting him wear it most of the day for about two weeks before I introduce the Stim and start training. Thoughts? Thanks in advance. 

If anyone else using Lou's training theory has any insight on how to introduce the collar, please share.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lou has some very very very helpful articles on his website. I would get to a seminar if you can or at least work with someone well versed in these methods. I have seen the results of some other methods and am not particularly impressed.

I can't give advice though since I pretty much have only used one (use Lou's methods) for crittering and proofing a recall. But to me it depends on the dog. Cyra needed it, Grim did not, I do not think Beau will...and all my dogs have to be reliable offlead in the woods where game abounds. (and with a cadaver dog CATS let me tell you CATS are very attracted to the odor)


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

cmscott said:


> I do have a question though. My collar arrives today actually and I wanted your insight on how to introduce the collar to my dog. Should I take some time to let him wear it around and get used to it before I start training?





cmscott said:


> I had planned on letting him wear it most of the day for about two weeks before I introduce the Stim and start training. Thoughts? Thanks in advance.


Usually I don't bother with collar conditioning before the fact. That's because I don't want to waste the time on it. But there are some people who will have a dog wear the collar for a couple of months before they start to train. 

But if I do this, I start to work on the desensitization immediately after the training session is over. The idea is to have the dog wear the collar at random times for random periods of time. Remove it randomly and put it on randomly. If you're going to be home, put it on when you get up in the morning and take it off when you go to bed. BE SURE to move it around on his neck every couple of hours or you'll get sores where the contact points rest on his neck. On days where you go to work, put it on when you come home and take it off when you go to bed. Several times during the period when he's wearing it, call him over and take it off. After a random period, put it back on. There's no set way to do this, the idea is to get the dog to to ignore its presence.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Because he is obedient thus far, I just feel that I won't have to use it much once he becomes "collar-literate". I just want him to know that I can reach out and touch him at all times. He is starting to realize that he is much faster and more agile than I am



Your dog is very young. I use an e collar regularly, and I've not been exposed to Lou's program but I've found that if you are doing schutzhund/Ipo training, timing is everything. In our club the handler is rarely the one operating the collar. 

If you are training for titles, you have 5 months before your dog is even eligible for a BH. Take your time, keep in mind your dog is very young and immature, and learn how the e collar can be a positive training tool for you and your dog. There are multiple uses for the e collar so take your time and learn how to use it correctly. De sensitation is also important, and on low levels the collar can be positive reinforcement to let your dog know they are doing what you want. 

For me, putting the ball on the counter before putting on the collar makes it insignificant. I've seen dogs that change when the collar is put on, going into avoidance and sulking around. You don't want a negative association with it.


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