# E collar on off leash hikes?



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Hi guys, 
I know its too soon to be thinking about exercising Gandalf more after his health issues are just starting to improve but couldn't help myself... I have always loved taking my dogs to the nearby woods to just run off leash and play. On his good days I've taken Gandalf and its so amazing to see him running happy and free. He is very good with recalls in general, he stays by our side most the time and thank god when he does chase wildlife he always comes right back and never ever goes near the water (we have lots of gators here in Florida...). He will always run to the edge and then stop. One of my proudest moments with him was we saw a herd of deer just a couple feet away, I told him to come and he did even though I know every fiber in his being wanted the chase! However... we do have dirty nasty poop issues. He loves to eat animal poop. I haven't been taking him in the woods and letting him off leash because with all his digestive issues I really wanted to know EXACTLY what had been going into his system everyday and ruling out parasites and what not... He also likes to pretend hes a golden retriever, if we see another person or dog in the woods he runs right up to them and this freaks a lot of people out. It freaks me out too, a lot of those people walk their dogs back in the woods because they are aggressive dogs that can't handle the sidewalks with other people and dogs in the neighborhoods. Gandalf has a solid recall except in these certain circumstances. I think a lot of his recall issues will just come with maturity... we train a lot and hes been to plenty of obedience classes, in November hes taking his CGC test as long as he is in better health. I was thinking of maybe getting him an E collar for the off leash hikes in the woods, do you think this might be a useful tool for the issues we are having? Would an E collar be enough to keep him by my side when we see another dog or if he goes after some really fine smelling poop? I have also never used an E collar... how would I go about training here? 
Thanks again :grin2:


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Sounds like you're getting excited and looking forward to Gandalf's better health. Yay to that!
And as to ecollars, doing your research months ahead of time, is a good thing. 
First, I'd say, don't bother if you don't need. Personally, I like Larry Krohn's take on ecollars. He has tons of free youtube videos and a small book, but the gist of it, is train the dog first with reward based training, and only once your dog knows exactly what a command means, add the ecollar.
So I'm guessing you'll have no need of an ecollar for awhile anyway.
In the meantime, use a long-line for any iffy situations, so you always have control of your dog, even when giving him a little freedom.
Keep turning recalls into party time, excited party time, fun wow, favourite treat toy or game time. Use the long line to reel him in for failed recalls.
I use an ecollar for off-lead, and find it beats keeping a dog on a leash forever. The training phase was quick for my previous dogs (gsd's), but my current dog (free-range village dog) has been tricky (I still leash him up when he gets too much into chasing things, but his recalls are awesome).
Don't even think of getting a collar at a big box store.
That's it. You have so much time to do your research, ask away.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

islanddog said:


> Sounds like you're getting excited and looking forward to Gandalf's better health. Yay to that!
> And as to ecollars, doing your research months ahead of time, is a good thing.
> First, I'd say, don't bother if you don't need. Personally, I like Larry Krohn's take on ecollars. He has tons of free youtube videos and a small book, but the gist of it, is train the dog first with reward based training, and only once your dog knows exactly what a command means, add the ecollar.
> So I'm guessing you'll have no need of an ecollar for awhile anyway.
> ...


That's right ever since he was 8 weeks we have been practicing recalls and when he comes its a huge party with treats and love. He really has a great recall 99% of the time. Its just those random times when there's another dog he thinks is friendly or if there's  ! We don't have much of a yard so the woods is a great time for him to stretch his legs and really run and play ball and frisbee.... I can't imagine doing that on a long lead even hes too big and too fast and I want to just see him run free! What collars would you recommend? Do you give a verbal cue as well before you buzz? Do you then reward when they look back at you?


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Not a trainer, so keep in mind my answers are conversational only, not a how to.

I use a mini-educator, and that's because I want one with very low levels (levels so low they can be felt at a comfortable range, a tingle, massage, sensation) but will go high (in case of needing to stop a blown recall mid-chase).

Basically, start out under low distraction with the lowest level the dog responds to (google finding working level on an ecollar).
Then, with a long line, use that level, and tap the button and turn (Larry Krohn & others explain better) to 'condition' the dog to the collar. The dog should be comfortable and not stressed by this training, the dog should just be learning that his behaviour controls the collar (he needs to learn he can turn it off by doing something). Call your dog, have a fun party.

Once your dog gets that lesson, you can tap a split second before or at the same time of a command, (remember, if the level is really low, it's a signal, not a punishment), and then move to no e-collar tap unless there is no compliance. 

I hear you about long-lines being crap compared to off-leash, I agree (and my slightly mangled left hand is a reminder--fast dog (mine's only 40lbs) + long line + a moments inattention--equalled tendon damage), but you will always be juggling safety with freedom. Part of owning a dog. And you just make your decisions according the environment, your dog, and changing situations.

I still, and will always leash my dog under some circumstances even in places where I mostly run him off-lead.

Also, when you are playing with your dog (ball, frisbee) you can avoid the need to correct your dog by using engagement (playing with, fun training, mutual fun) to keep your dog with you, and making sure you spot 'distractions' before your dog does. When a 'distraction' appears, call, leash, and reward your dog before your dog realizes something is on the horizon. Make sure you have some fun games to play while on lead. I use this in places where I can see long distances (like an empty park) and I'm going to be active with my dog (play & train), but in the woods when I let him do 'dog stuff' things are different and I want the ecollar for back up.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I like the e collar technology mini educator also.My dogs like to roll in nasty things when we're out on off leash hikes and reinforcing the 'leave it' a few times with a low level stim has proved 100% effective.The basic premise is disobedience is uncomfortable but compliance is hugely rewarded.This article gives a good overview.
K9Handler.com/E-Collar Basics - K9Handler.com/


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Food for thought. Using an ecollar wrong can cause issues. I've seen it ramp a dog up and cause a fight.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> I like the e collar technology mini educator also.My dogs like to roll in nasty things when we're out on off leash hikes and reinforcing the 'leave it' a few times with a low level stim has proved 100% effective.The basic premise is disobedience is uncomfortable but compliance is hugely rewarded.This article gives a good overview.
> K9Handler.com/E-Collar Basics - K9Handler.com/


That is a very thorough article. I so much wish I'd had this when I was starting out. I highly recommend printing it out to read, using a highlighter, re-reading. It really is thorough.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Food for thought. Using an ecollar wrong can cause issues. I've seen it ramp a dog up and cause a fight.


A worthy warning--this would be the case if it's used as a punisher. Dog runs towards dog, blows off recall, gets to the other dog, owner panics and hits the button, dog ignores, owner turns up the ecollar, dog freaks and attacks the nearest thing which happens to be the dog he was greeting<---*absolutely do not do this and avoid circumstances where this might happen.

*It needs to be used as a part of training, not a last resort surprise punisher. 

Any other ways this thing could go terribly wrong? OP is asking before doing, so there is plenty of time to think, question, run through scenarios.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I only use the E collar to prevent wildlife chases, never for other issues like other dogs or eating 'stuff'. BTW: running to the edge of the water? Aren't gators fast enough to grab a dog like that? I have seen videos of crocs snatching animals near the water. How about pythons and all the other creepy non-native species in your state?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Yes it can go wrong if the dog gets the impression that the other dog is causing him discomfort.In other words,that the stim is coming from the environment or object.Like island dog said,using it to proof known commands before venturing out is important.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> I only use the E collar to prevent wildlife chases, never for other issues like other dogs or eating 'stuff'. BTW: running to the edge of the water? Aren't gators fast enough to grab a dog like that? I have seen videos of crocs snatching animals near the water. How about pythons and all the other creepy non-native species in your state?


Hes generally very good with wildlife, like I said when he sees a herd of deer I can recall him off and he comes right to me. He will occasionally chase a flying bird which might go over a lake, but he always stops well before the waters edge. I grew up in this same wildlife area swimming in these lakes and rivers every single day, I ran barefoot everywhere here. I regret it as an adult and realize how stupid that was... but this dog exercises more caution than even I did as a kid. The gators in this area are not fed and not used to humans in these areas. I don't think its the gators we should be worrying about as much but the poisonous snakes that you won't even see before you step on one. I'm looking into a desnaking class here this month as well, not sure it could absolutely backfire but its worth considering I figure. We don't have pythons and crocodiles here this isn't the everglades lol. Just like yall up north might run into a bear.. or cougar or whatever we all take our own risks everyday. **** we could be walking and get struck by lightning randomly. I'm willing to take this risk to let my dog live.... he has a 99% good recall, he doesn't get too close to the waters like I said. He KNOWS his commands, just sometimes his immaturity gets the better of him. I can't stand those parents that bubble wrap their kids and don't let them play outside. I worried about these same risks for my other shepherd too but he died suddenly of cancer. I was thankful when he died that we had all those wonderful memories and times together playing in the woods... As far as the dogs go I got it loud and clear do not use the collar to avoid dogs. We have ran into dogs twice in these woods. The first time I looked around me in the field, saw we were clear and went to unhook his leash... and there behind me was a man with two large mixed breed dogs. He must have snuck up on us because he was not there a second ago... he watched me unhook Gandalf and didn't make a noise or say hey wait. Gandalf stared at the dogs and I said "stay" then he broke the command and ran up to them full body tail wag and giving them kisses on the face. The dogs just looked perplexed not aggressive. After I ran and leashed Gandalf back up the man said thats strange my dogs are extremely dog aggressive... I was grateful that day nothing happened. I wonder now if I could have recalled him with a come. Because the second time we ran into a man with his off leashed giant aussie mix, the dog I know is extremely dog aggressive. Gandalf started running at it like he did the last time but I said COME and he turned around mid run and came right back to me and I leashed him up.  Whenever I do have the chance and see the dog coming I ALWAYS leash him. I wouldn't rely on a device instead of a leash if I can avoid the scenario. I guess my main ideal use for the e collar would be if he went after poop, I can never see poop... he always finds it first. Since our encounters with those two groups of aggressive dogs I take a different route with him now that I know most people don't know about. I feel like our dog run ins will not happen nearly as often. It's not right either that my dog has to suffer and stay leashed up his whole life because of a couple bad apples... I would like to train more with off leash dog situations but all the dog classes in my area including schutzhund classes you have to keep your dog on a tight leash.. and theres many dog aggressive dogs in these classes with muzzles. My last shepherd I took him to the same classes and they had off leash training, they have since all changed their policies. Maybe too many dog attacks? My boy is extremely well trained.. he knows how to heel (we use fuss) perfectly by my side, he can do a 10 minute down stay with distractions (again not sure what happened that one scenario but we practice in classes and outside often) and he knows a multitude of other commands. He has been socialized in every situation.. he is completely comfortable and confident in his self. All of our trainers including Ed Reyes one of the best schutzhund trainers in our area said he was impressed. My boy is only 8 months old.. I have no doubt as he matures he will only get better I just want to avoid the poop for his stomachs sake lol! Is there another better method than an e collar to train him to avoid poop? He is generally 100% on leave it, he just can't help himself when it comes to poop...


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Buy Larry Krohn's booklet "Everything I now about E-collar Training" on Amazon. It is only $10. Read it once, then again. Then buy a high quality collar and start training.

I use e-collars when we are hiking, or I should say my dogs are wearing them. But I rarely actually use the e-collar. Because the dogs are already trained. I have the e-collars for an emergency scenario, and also to keep up with training, as needed. 

Remember, it's not really the actual level of "shock" that matters, it is what the dog perceives. A dog in a state of high drive will need a higher level correction than a dog just sitting in your living room. Larry talks about this in his book and also about "act of God" corrections. Read it, do it, and you won't make a mistake with the training. 

You MUST be patient and you MUST make sure the dog has a clear understanding of the process of punishment, reward, and communication with the collar. 

I never train a command using the collar, but I do and would again use "act of God" corrections to save a dog from a potentially deadly action (chasing cars, chasing deer, etc.) I do try to pair these with a verbal marker, but if I don't have the timing perfect, I am still not letting the dog practice an addictive and highly adrenalizing activity like chasing wildlife.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Regarding the poop, because if poop is your only problem, then,

with the ecollar, find the poop before your dog does, then as your dog goes toward the poop, you tap tap on the collar at low that is sufficiently unpleasant that your dog doesn't proceed. No commands. You are teaching the dog that poop sniffing causes tingles, and avoiding the tingles is as easy as not eating poop. That's one way. (I've never done this, and would rather just do an ordinary leave it).

Other way requires something better than poop in your pocket, hotdogs? Just teach a reward based leave-it, make sure you say leave it before your dog gets to the poop, have something wonderful as a reward, and your dog will think leave it is the best two words in the english language. (you can add in the ecollar if you can't compete with poop) but it's not really sounding like you are in need of buying a hugely expensive tool for what amounts to small potatoes. It's just poop, right? 

I had a dog that LOVED fresh horse droppings, and yep, she got some, big deal. Deer chasing, however, is a big deal since it would lead her out of sight (I used the ecollar for that).


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

islanddog said:


> Regarding the poop, because if poop is your only problem, then,
> 
> with the ecollar, find the poop before your dog does, then as your dog goes toward the poop, you tap tap on the collar at low that is sufficiently unpleasant that your dog doesn't proceed. No commands. You are teaching the dog that poop sniffing causes tingles, and avoiding the tingles is as easy as not eating poop. That's one way. (I've never done this, and would rather just do an ordinary leave it).
> 
> ...




It's not just poop... this is a special case dog see my previous post (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/introductions-welcome-mat/715474-help-us-please.html) . He has been VERY sick from digestive issues, anything little is enough to set him out of whack.. he might be better in the future but he might not. Hot dogs are out of the question. He hates hot dogs anyways lol. The only thing he can even have right now is his food. He is VERY food motivated, but any poop is better than food in his mind. He has even dropped his favorite toy his ball to get poop. The only thing I could carry in my pocket to get him to leave poop is POOP! He KNOWS leave it... but poop is much better than leaving it. I can drop a fresh hot cheese burger on the ground and he won't touch it even if I walk out of the room. It is a big deal for me if he gets poop. Poop also carries parasites like giardia!!!!!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I know he has a lot of vitamin deficiencies right now which very well could be why he is so obsessed with poop? He's deficient and just trying to survive. We are working our way through this with supplements and nutrition.. i'm hoping as he heals maybe the poop thing won't even be an issue. I am just afraid of it becoming a bad habit if it isn't already. And I want him to still have fun and enjoy life even though hes sick!


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> It's not just poop... this is a special case dog see my previous post (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/introductions-welcome-mat/715474-help-us-please.html) . He has been VERY sick from digestive issues, anything little is enough to set him out of whack.. he might be better in the future but he might not. Hot dogs are out of the question. He hates hot dogs anyways lol. The only thing he can even have right now is his food. He is VERY food motivated, but any poop is better than food in his mind. He has even dropped his favorite toy his ball to get poop. The only thing I could carry in my pocket to get him to leave poop is POOP! He KNOWS leave it... but poop is much better than leaving it. I can drop a fresh hot cheese burger on the ground and he won't touch it even if I walk out of the room. It is a big deal for me if he gets poop. Poop also carries parasites like giardia!!!!!


Oops, forgot that. Well, there is the ecollar then. Some people muzzle train for that (ie. use a basket muzzle to physically prevent a dog from picking up things to eat). 

Personally, I think the ecollar would be less invasive.

And yep, some poop eating can be due to deficiency. But alot of healthy dogs think it's big fun too.

And of course you can use whatever works and suitable for your dog as a reward--likes to play, right?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Research poison proofing. Find a trainer to help with it if you need guidance. It's basically avoidance training.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

islanddog said:


> Oops, forgot that. Well, there is the ecollar then. Some people muzzle train for that (ie. use a basket muzzle to physically prevent a dog from picking up things to eat).
> 
> Personally, I think the ecollar would be less invasive.


Yes I read about the muzzle idea too.. but then people also said the dogs rubbed the muzzle in poop in a desperate attempt to eat it ... uh GROSS lol!! Then again the e collar might also make him attack poop... LOL!!! :rofl: Anyone else out there ever deal with this fun issue?


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yes I read about the muzzle idea too.. but then people also said the dogs rubbed the muzzle in poop in a desperate attempt to eat it ... uh GROSS lol!! Then again the e collar might also make him attack poop... LOL!!! :rofl: Anyone else out there ever deal with this fun issue?


I'm on a lot of dog groups, many 'force free' dog groups; so yeah, they'll tell you to use a muzzle for this and that ecollars are cruel. I pretty much have all the arguments memorized.

If you go with the ecollar, all the advice you've been given here applies. Low levels to dissuade the dog, tap at the moment your dog 'thinks' about going for it. Be consistent--make poop less pleasant than it is now. You don't need to teach to be afraid of poop, just 'not worth the effort'.

I know you are joking, but do keep in mind if you use the ecollar harshly, with bad timing, or inconsistently, you could make things worse, or cause the dog to be superstitious of other things, etc... if you are doing low level work, you can back off mistakes. If you try to 'teach him a lesson he'll never forget' and you get it wrong, well, that'll be difficult to undo.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I have a poop eating dog, more specifically a cat poop eating dog. I loath it. I have gotten really good at brushing his teeth despite the most horrible smell I must endure while brushing. Then the deworming poops UGH. It is certainly a struggle. 

Today he went for the poop I said NO, and he freaking dropped the poop right out of his mouth! Once I recovered from my shock I put him in sit stay and disposed of the poop. Then while walking along (off leash) we have 12 wooded acres, I can read him when he is on the poop hunt, I called him and he actually came, yeah I had toy or two in the pockets and we played fetch and he got lots of praise. I could not do any of those things a few weeks ago. We are also making really good progress on cat annoying and chasing sigh..... My pup is 9 months old. 

I was using Lou Castles e collar method to teach recall. Then it was brought to my attention on this forum how my dogs love of play can be used for obedience, I jumped on it. It is proving to be very effective, I am forever grateful, I honestly could not be happier with the progress. It has only been a few weeks and we get better at it everyday. I am finding all sorts of ways to use toys and or play for reward. I get more focus from my pup, and perhaps he might have just figured out coming to me to play is way better than eating poop and getting your teeth brushed LOL. If I were a better trainer or had one, we would be much farther ahead I think. I am a first time dog owner. 

I understand your case is urgent for dire health reasons. I understand how hard it is of a thing to control. It sounds like your pup has great engagement with you and perhaps if he loves to play with you can start working on obedience thru very short sessions of play while he recovers. Use a long line instead of off leash maybe. It is amazing what a dog will do for you while you have a toy in your hand and are ready to play. Lets see if I say the same as I near adolescence  

I have noticed as he ages and I understand the training process better, as we use what we have learned in training in real life, the dots get connected in his head and he understands and wants to obey (most of the time). 

I hope the new food does the trick for your puppy and I wish him/her a long healthy wonderful life. HTH and I said prayer for your pup.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Apex1 said:


> I have a poop eating dog, more specifically a cat poop eating dog. I loath it. I have gotten really good at brushing his teeth despite the most horrible smell I must endure while brushing. Then the deworming poops UGH. It is certainly a struggle.
> 
> Today he went for the poop I said NO, and he freaking dropped the poop right out of his mouth! Once I recovered from my shock I put him in sit stay and disposed of the poop. Then while walking along (off leash) we have 12 wooded acres, I can read him when he is on the poop hunt, I called him and he actually came, yeah I had toy or two in the pockets and we played fetch and he got lots of praise. I could not do any of those things a few weeks ago. We are also making really good progress on cat annoying and chasing sigh..... My pup is 9 months old.
> 
> ...


Lol too funny its cat poop for my guy too..! So nasty!!! Love that the playing worked for your guy! We already have been incorporating his toys and more specifically his ball into training since we brought him home. It works wonders for many things.. this is just not one of them for him. His heel is awesome now. He has always had a .. fetish for things on the ground.. I think mostly due to his health issues... always being underweight and starving he has always tried to eat whatever he could on our walks. We have slowly progressed over the months to now he doesn't try to eat acorns, lint, sticks, trash. I'd say he has come a very LONG way! I like the suggestion of the poison training, I would love for him not to take treats from other people too. Everytime we go somewhere someone always tries to slip him something (usually a chicken dog treat) and I know all too well it ends in pain and medications.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> I only use the E collar to prevent wildlife chases, never for other issues like other dogs or eating 'stuff'. BTW: running to the edge of the water? Aren't gators fast enough to grab a dog like that? I have seen videos of crocs snatching animals near the water. How about pythons and all the other creepy non-native species in your state?


Anywhere near the water's edge but particularly where they would go to get a drink at the edge, are the most dangerous places hands down. That's exactly how gators hunt and they take dogs like this all the time.


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