# West German show line vs DDR working line



## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

I'm curious if a west German show line dog would be considered to have more genetic health issues than a DDR dog? I've found an attractive show line dog but temperament/health are a priority for me.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't think there is a clear cut worse/better in regards to health that can be generalized to the different lines. 

You'd have to study the health history of the individual dogs in the pedigree of the dog you are interested in, whether Show or DDR, to make an educated choice.


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## Trix (Jun 22, 2017)

I agree with castlemaid. It depends more so on the pedigree than what type of GSD. Any poorly bred GSD is more likely to have health issues. Any line with a long history of strong testing and good pairing will be the best bet, regardless. 

Health and temperament were my number one priority. In the time frame I was looking, the best pup and breeder I could find were a showline GSD. He is solid in every aspect across the board. 


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

health of the puppy is dependent on the parents test results rather than the country of origin. In general i would wager the average working dog has better health than the average showline dog but again much more dependent on the individual breeders practices. 

What are you looking for to do with your dog in terms of show sport or work?


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

One thing to note about the ddr dogs as far as temperament goes is it takes a long time for them mature. I've spoken to people who's dogs weren't matured until 3+ years old. Consider that in regards to what you want out of him. 

My pup is 1/2 ddr and takes after that side physically. He's big and heavy boned which looks good but I worry about his joint health and it takes a lot of effort to keep him from going all out and jumping all over the place. His drives are moderate and surprisingly balanced but I credit that to the Czech half of him because from what I'm told most pure ddr dogs are overly defensive and have lower toy/prey drives. Those are some other things to consider based on what you need/want the dog for.


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## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

girardid said:


> health of the puppy is dependent on the parents test results rather than the country of origin. In general i would wager the average working dog has better health than the average showline dog but again much more dependent on the individual breeders practices.
> 
> What are you looking for to do with your dog in terms of show sport or work?


primarily interested in sport, home protection, companion.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Jharpphoto said:


> girardid said:
> 
> 
> > health of the puppy is dependent on the parents test results rather than the country of origin. In general i would wager the average working dog has better health than the average showline dog but again much more dependent on the individual breeders practices.
> ...


 definitely cut out the ddr then. Takes too long to mature and prey/toy drive is too low. My money would go for mallinois for sport


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

as temperament goes is it takes a long time for them mature.

Would you mind elaborating on that please?


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Jharpphoto said:


> primarily interested in sport, home protection, companion.


You will have a difficult time finding a dog with true protection ability in the WGSL's.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

All the lines have good health, temperament and strengths. Just have to make sure you get a good dog.


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## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> You will have a difficult time finding a dog with true protection ability in the WGSL's.


In your opinion, would a WGSL dog with proper training make a suitable home protection/companion dog?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Certainly, all GS with good training will make good home protectors, if you have the right dog.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Apex1 said:


> as temperament goes is it takes a long time for them mature.
> 
> Would you mind elaborating on that please?


This was one of the best explanations I got for this question "His natural instincts and drives kicked in before his rational brain caught up. She said it was quite common so finding someone really familiar with the lines is important. These are not your typical GSD" 



Jharpphoto said:


> GSDguy4EVER said:
> 
> 
> > You will have a difficult time finding a dog with true protection ability in the WGSL's.
> ...


It's not the proper training that's most important. It's the proper dog. It takes very strong genetics to get a protection dog.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> This was one of the best explanations I got for this question "His natural instincts and drives kicked in before his rational brain caught up. She said it was quite common so finding someone really familiar with the lines is important. These are not your typical GSD"
> 
> 
> 
> It's not the proper training that's most important. It's the proper dog. It takes very strong genetics to get a protection dog.


Bingo Gooseman90!

I like to think in hypotheticals. If an intruder came into my house and my family's life was in danger, and if I could randomly pick one dog from either the German Sieger Show or the German Bundesieger Trials to help defend us... well you already know which lot I would stake my life on.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Jharpphoto said:


> In your opinion, would a WGSL dog with proper training make a suitable home protection/companion dog?


The average WGSL dog, even with proper training, would probably not be suitable for home protection. I'm sure there are some WGSL that can do home protection, I just haven't seen one myself in person. If you do find one, please share with us. I believe strong-nerved dogs, whether showline or workingline, should be promoted and their genetics passed on.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> The average WGSL dog, even with proper training, would probably not be suitable for home protection. I'm sure there are some WGSL that can do home protection, I just haven't seen one myself in person. If you do find one, please share with us. I believe strong-nerved dogs, whether showline or workingline, should be promoted and their genetics passed on.


It depends on what variant of home protection you're discussing. My partner's late WGSL female had an exceptionally "mean" sounding bark - very deep, very growly (albeit due to her nerves, clearly she was feeling quite defensive). Anyone who walked by or near, or ever knocked on the door and we opened it immediately asked us to close the door because she intimidated them due to the sound of her bark, and then upon sight her size. I think that's all the OP is asking for. They aren't looking for a PPD, and IMHO a WGSL would be more than suitable for being a sound alarm and deterrent.

Reports show that the average robber will not enter a house with a dog simply because of the sound aspect. I think that's good enough in most cases, granted you live in a good neighbourhood with a low crime rate of B&E.


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## Trix (Jun 22, 2017)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> The average WGSL dog, even with proper training, would probably not be suitable for home protection. I'm sure there are some WGSL that can do home protection, I just haven't seen one myself in person. If you do find one, please share with us. I believe strong-nerved dogs, whether showline or workingline, should be promoted and their genetics passed on.




Out of curiosity, out of the last decade or so, how many times in all of GSD’s in that period, do you think it’s made a difference whether the dog was a show line or a working line, to an intruder. 

First - let’s think about how many houses are robbed with people home each year. Percentage wise - pretty low. 

Then - let’s think of how many of those houses had large dogs? I’m sure a ton less, as most intruders aren’t going to break into a house with a large dog, likely not a lab, and even less likely with a GSD. 

Lastly, in regards to the number of intruders that have broken into a house with a GSD, how many times I wonder has it seriously made a difference whether the dog was a show line or working line? 

I’d LOVE for you to find even one example, in the history of the forums, where an intruder broke into someone’s house and their show line cowered and the intruder got everything he wanted, Be it theft or to harm the home owners. 

The intruders not gonna break in and say “oh, it’s got an angled back, he won’t bite.” Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? 

Yes - I’m sure some people might sleep better with their “working line” dogs guarding the house, but when you look at the big picture and statistics, the odds of it making a difference are probably about that of being struck by lightning. 

Of course - if you are military or police it may make a difference. 


That being said - I’ll wait for you to find examples. I may start a new thread out of curiosity to see if it’s virtually ever happened. You know - someone’s house was broken into and their ASL did nothing and they “wished they had a working line.” Im sure id get a lot of speculation, but probably no examples. 

My 5 month old GSD is only 55 lbs, and I’m positive he’s intimidating enough, both in bark and appearance, that any intruder patrolling houses would absolutely pass over mine. 


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Trix said:


> Out of curiosity, out of the last decade or so, how many times in all of GSD’s in that period, do you think it’s made a difference whether the dog was a show line or a working line, to an intruder.
> 
> First - let’s think about how many houses are robbed with people home each year. Percentage wise - pretty low.
> 
> ...


Internet forums are certainly not the place to find objective evidence regarding home invasion statistics. Anecdotal accounts,whether true or not, would be virtually unverifiable. You are the one assuming statistics regarding home invasions, so I think the burden of proof should be on you to produce such evidence.

My answer to the OP was based on my own experience with GSD's and is admittedly subjective.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Trix,

Here are some videos from Youtube. Disclaimer- I have not verified the truth of these videos.


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## Trix (Jun 22, 2017)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> Internet forums are certainly not the place to find objective evidence regarding home invasion statistics. Anecdotal accounts,whether true or not, would be virtually unverifiable. You are the one assuming statistics regarding home invasions, so I think the burden of proof should be on you to produce such evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> My answer to the OP was based on my own experience with GSD's and is admittedly subjective.




Actually - you’re the one stating that “WGSL would probably not be suitable for Home protection.” So - I believe the burden of proof lies with you. 

Of course, the reason I told you to “prove it” basically, is because I agree with you, that it’s probably not even possible. The amount of home invasions with large dogs at home is such a small amount. 

It’s very similar to gun owners. I’m a proud gun owner. I love to go to the range. I own several rifles and handguns. It’s a hobby to me. Then - you get the gun owners that are so “gun-ho” they legit think they are going to need their guns some day for personal protection. They legit act like their chance of needing that gun is like 1/10, instead of 1/1,000,000. 

I love that people take pride and passion in their dogs. It’s a great hobby, I love my GSD. But let’s be realistic, the sole appearance of having a dog will deter intruders far more often than not. Then you look at the odds of any of that actually happening. Well... theory is great, but I’m more of a “percentages and averages” kind of a guy as opposed to being a fear monger. 


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I dont know what the percentage is but I personally was one of those people who was a victim of a home invasion/robbery where it was obvious the house was occupied and there were large dogs in the yard. They came in through the dog door. Dogs hid on the porch and the only thing that saved us was a gun. It happens more often then you'd think, criminals do pretty crazy things. When you are the victim of a home invasion numbers don't really mean anything. 

But to answer your original question in my experience working lines have just as many health issues as show lines. If you want to do sport and home protection your best bet is a working line, don't get set up on the whole 100% DDR hype. The most important thing is finding an individual breeder who works and trials their dogs in what you are interested in, that could be working or show line.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

astrovan2487 said:


> I dont know what the percentage is but I personally was one of those people who was a victim of a home invasion/robbery where it was obvious the house was occupied and there were large dogs in the yard. They came in through the dog door. Dogs hid on the porch and the only thing that saved us was a gun. It happens more often then you'd think, *criminals do pretty crazy things*. When you are the victim of a home invasion numbers don't really mean anything.
> 
> But to answer your original question in my experience working lines have just as many health issues as show lines. If you want to do sport and home protection your best bet is a working line, don't get set up on the whole 100% DDR hype. The most important thing is finding an individual breeder who works and trials their dogs in what you are interested in, that could be working or show line.


Bolded is especially true of the meth heads we see in our area, logic and reason are out the window.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I believe that any dog that loves it's people will do it's level best to defend them. Defending property is a different game all together. Health is on the breeder not the line or type, as far as genetics go.
The rest is a crap shoot.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@OP....I have owned and bred WGSL and DDR dogs. I have trained many of both. Send me a pm and I will give you my opinion of the pros and cons of each in reference to health.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

@cliffson1 I’ve often wondered this... so many people come here looking for advice. Why don’t you just post some of your knowledge publicly so more can benefit from it?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

A dog that "loves" it's people will not necessarily defend them. A dog with solid genetics, and balanced drives might protect. 
By the logic of love, I could go out and get any puppy and be defended if need be. Which is a dangerous assumption


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I have literally been in hundreds maybe even closer to a thousand homes of strangers in my life. Doing drywall and paint you enter a lot of homes. Of those homes probably half of them have had dogs. Of those probably half of them were nice dogs. The other half were complete jerks to us. In all of the homes with dogs that would bite simply because they didn't want you there the majority were mutts. Usually the purebred dogs of any breeds were quite nice to be around. Except chows and chihuahuas.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> I have literally been in hundreds maybe even closer to a thousand homes of strangers in my life. Doing drywall and paint you enter a lot of homes. Of those homes probably half of them have had dogs. Of those probably half of them were nice dogs. The other half were complete jerks to us. In all of the homes with dogs that would bite simply because they didn't want you there the majority were mutts. Usually the purebred dogs of any breeds were quite nice to be around. Except chows and chihuahuas.


It's funny you mention Chows. My ex-mother-in-law had to put her Chow down many years ago for biting a stranger that came into her property. I don't know the whole story, but I was disappointed because the dog was not a vicious dog.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> It's funny you mention Chows. My ex-mother-in-law had to put her Chow down many years ago for biting a stranger that came into her property. I don't know the whole story, but I was disappointed because the dog was not a vicious dog.


this is one thing many people don't think about when wanting their dogs to protect the property. In too many places in the world, if a dog bites a trespasser, the owners and dog, not the trespasser, could be the ones in trouble. I'd like my dogs to do a bark-and-hold. When we have workmen over we always put the dogs outside, in their crates or we have them leashed until we meet and greet the workmen. 

with trespassers, I'm pretty sure both of my dogs would alert bark, my female the fiercest. But if the "bad guy" called their bluff, he would find out that my male is the one who would be the one he'd have to contend with.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GypsyGhost said:


> @cliffson1 I’ve often wondered this... so many people come here looking for advice. Why don’t you just post some of your knowledge publicly so more can benefit from it?


Good question! The primary reason is because over a long time and much experience I have found that the breed is plagued with many genetic issues in health, behavior and temperament. The specialization of the lines has led to strengths and weaknesses in these areas. I cannot in good faith only write about the good and leave out the bad because of fear of hurting someone’s feelings. It’s not about people’s feelings to me, it’s about the dog and the breed. You never see me attack individuals on any forum, and I always maintain that nothing is absolute, BUT after dealing with hundreds and hundreds of dogs over forty years, in training, breeding, and researching pedigrees/genetics, there are certain strengths and weaknesses that inherent in the breed and especially in the lines. I have been critical of show lines and working lines alike. I have been critical of the lack of genetic diversity that when severe enough leads to physical and mental aberrations outside the norm for the breed. Yet the lines proliferation has increased these maladies and folks ask about their dogs and dog lines and I will NOT ambush them with only saying or cautioning them with the good but omitting the bad because of hurt feelings. Soooo it’s better to tell them in private the good and the bad from my perspective. Doesn’t mean I’m right, but my perspective is not based on owning 1 or 2 two or even 5 or 6 dogs or training only one kind of dog linewise or dealing with problems from my dog at home or dogs in a shelter( I’m not knocking the former just saying my opinion is based on large sample sizes of what I give it on, otherwise I don’t speak on something).
So that is why I go private with information on lines and pedigrees, though many people will benefit, there are some who feel this breed is only warm and fuzzy and DO NOT want to hear the underbelly of the breed unless it doesn’t pertain to them. I can’t in good conscience only give the good about things from my experience, and for those that feel I don’t know what I’m talking about, I really don’t see why they get offended because if folks don’t see any validity in what I write, they won’t pay attention to my post anyway. 
Anyway, I’m still glad to help privately anyone if they feel I’m worth it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Jharpphoto.....I hope the info helped?.


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## Jharpphoto (Oct 27, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> @Jharpphoto.....I hope the info helped?.


Many thanks for your info sir.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Btw, I don’t want my answer to Gypseyghosts guestion to derail this thread, or even start any dialogue. I answered their question, I’m aware of the realities of this forum and I choose to offer any analysis privately for those that are interested....otherwise good Luck Jharpphoto on your new puppy if you go that route.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Jharpphoto said:


> I'm curious if a west German show line dog would be considered to have more genetic health issues than a DDR dog? I've found an attractive show line dog but temperament/health are a priority for me.


I own both a WGSL dog (8 months) and a Czech/DDR dog (9 years). I did extensive research on the pedigrees of both dogs and was far more concerned with the breeder and their program than WGSL vs. DDR. You want to make sure the breeder knows what they are doing. Ask them for information regarding health issues with their dogs and previous pups. Ask for references from clients and do your own research. My WL girl was plagued with health problems from a year old (Inflammatory Bowel Disease) despite there not being a hint of it in the lines. My WGSL boy has not had any issues (though he is only 8 months), and his breeder has tons of happy customers and no signs of genetic issues in the lines. Both are great dogs with great drive. It's all about the breeder.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> Good question! The primary reason is because over a long time and much experience I have found that the breed is plagued with many genetic issues in health, behavior and temperament. The specialization of the lines has led to strengths and weaknesses in these areas. I cannot in good faith only write about the good and leave out the bad because of fear of hurting someone’s feelings. It’s not about people’s feelings to me, it’s about the dog and the breed. You never see me attack individuals on any forum, and I always maintain that nothing is absolute, BUT after dealing with hundreds and hundreds of dogs over forty years, in training, breeding, and researching pedigrees/genetics, there are certain strengths and weaknesses that inherent in the breed and especially in the lines. I have been critical of show lines and working lines alike. I have been critical of the lack of genetic diversity that when severe enough leads to physical and mental aberrations outside the norm for the breed. Yet the lines proliferation has increased these maladies and folks ask about their dogs and dog lines and I will NOT ambush them with only saying or cautioning them with the good but omitting the bad because of hurt feelings. Soooo it’s better to tell them in private the good and the bad from my perspective. Doesn’t mean I’m right, but my perspective is not based on owning 1 or 2 two or even 5 or 6 dogs or training only one kind of dog linewise or dealing with problems from my dog at home or dogs in a shelter( I’m not knocking the former just saying my opinion is based on large sample sizes of what I give it on, otherwise I don’t speak on something).
> So that is why I go private with information on lines and pedigrees, though many people will benefit, there are some who feel this breed is only warm and fuzzy and DO NOT want to hear the underbelly of the breed unless it doesn’t pertain to them. I can’t in good conscience only give the good about things from my experience, and for those that feel I don’t know what I’m talking about, I really don’t see why they get offended because if folks don’t see any validity in what I write, they won’t pay attention to my post anyway.
> Anyway, I’m still glad to help privately anyone if they feel I’m worth it.


This is exactly why I think it's helpful for people to post publicly. We can all - including the person posting - learn from the ensuing discussion.

Let's use this as an example: Large but truncated sample sizes can still give you misleading results. 

Let's say I'm looking for a representative sample of pine cones. I haven't narrowed anything down farther than that - just pine cones. On the western side of a given forest, there are lots of trees that drop long skinny pine cones. On the eastern side, the pine cones are shorter and very fat. I pick 500 pine cones from the western side of the forest and conclude that based on a more than adequately sized sample, pine cones on average are 6.8" long and 1.5" wide. A lot of people will look at my results and say, "Okay great, she got a big sample size, it must be a reasonable conclusion." Except it isn't, because I've completely disregarded the vast array of 3" long and 2" wide pine cones across the forest.

But if I publish this research and someone says to me, "But hey look - I've been to that forest. I've seen the short fat pine cones on the other side. Do you think maybe it would be a good idea to include some pine cones from both sides of the forest and then reevaluate?" then I have the chance to self-correct. I have learned something new. And maybe that person can still benefit from my knowledge of the long skinny pine cones on the west side of the forest, because just because it isn't the whole story doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Science is inherently self correcting and I think the forum can be, too.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree Watery Tart, you are right?.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

kimbale said:


> I own both a WGSL dog (8 months) and a Czech/DDR dog (9 years). I did extensive research on the pedigrees of both dogs and was far more concerned with the breeder and their program than WGSL vs. DDR. You want to make sure the breeder knows what they are doing. Ask them for information regarding health issues with their dogs and previous pups. Ask for references from clients and do your own research. My WL girl was plagued with health problems from a year old (Inflammatory Bowel Disease) despite there not being a hint of it in the lines. My WGSL boy has not had any issues (though he is only 8 months), and his breeder has tons of happy customers and no signs of genetic issues in the lines. Both are great dogs with great drive. It's all about the breeder.


I will admit. The WGSL I owned many years ago did not have any physical health issues- skin and coat were healthy. No joint issues and she was not really roach backed. Her main issue was weak nerves. To her, a plastic bag rolling across the lawn was a threat. The Czech/West german workingline dog I had did have skin issues. He would develop these lipomas that would ulcerate.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> I agree Watery Tart, you are right?.


That I am, and I'm glad you recognize that. :grin2:


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