# Does the dog know it is food?



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If I were to give her an entire rabbit as food, would she recognize it as food or do I have to open up the carcass? I am very slowly thinking about raising rabbits or guinea pigs for this purpose, even though I have had and cherished them as pets


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Inga finds, kills and eats rabbits.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I always gave skinned rabbits and every raw fed dog I have had has accepted it just as well as they would a chicken quarter. 

Some picky dogs may need time to adjust to eating full hide meals though.

Personally I always liked to tan the hides and sell them to crafters. It covered the cost of rabbit feed and upkeep. So free dog food. yay.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

voodoolamb said:


> Personally I always liked to tan the hides and sell them to crafters. It covered the cost of rabbit feed and upkeep. So free dog food. yay.


I need to clear some mental hurdles for this but I admire you.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

voodoolamb said:


> I always gave skinned rabbits and every raw fed dog I have had has accepted it just as well as they would a chicken quarter.
> 
> Some picky dogs may need time to adjust to eating full hide meals though.
> 
> *Personally I always liked to tan the hides and sell them to crafters.* It covered the cost of rabbit feed and upkeep. So free dog food. yay.


Aw man, I missed an opportunity a couple of weeks ago.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> I need to clear some mental hurdles for this but I admire you.


Honestly... the hardest part is the dispatching. Once you get over THAT hurdle handling the carcass is no worse than cutting up a chicken. 

Atleast that's how it's been for me.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Honestly... the hardest part is the dispatching. Once you get over THAT hurdle handling the carcass is no worse than cutting up a chicken.
> 
> Atleast that's how it's been for me.


That has been my experience, as well.

If you're considering getting into rabbits, perhaps consider the dual purpose breeds. Silver Foxes were my favorite, back when I was into them. Look into sprouting fodder, too - once you get the hang of it, it's very efficient and healthy.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

voodoolamb said:


> Honestly... the hardest part is the dispatching. Once you get over THAT hurdle handling the carcass is no worse than cutting up a chicken.
> 
> Atleast that's how it's been for me.


How about CO2 gas?


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> How about CO2 gas?


Asphyxiation takes a couple of minutes and probably isn't very pleasant. I think it might be more humane to quickly break their neck so it's over in a few seconds.

Which sounds barbaric, but it IS over within a handful of seconds.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Kyrielle said:


> Asphyxiation takes a couple of minutes and probably isn't very pleasant. I think it might be more humane to quickly break their neck so it's over in a few seconds.
> 
> Which sounds barbaric, but it IS over within a handful of seconds.


Agree. If you look up "broomstick method", you will see a very simple option.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> How about CO2 gas?


WARNING: Discussion about putting small livestock down for use in pet food to follow...

C02 is a possibility... but it is tricky. You have to be fairly handy in order to build a chamber (and it can be dangerous if not built correctly) and more importantly if not done correctly (and some would argue even i done correctly) there is a very real concern for causing pain and distress. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15901358

Also according to the AVMA euthanasia guidelines - Rabbits have prolonged survival times when exposed to CO2

https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Documents/euthanasia.pdf

Personally, I am much more comfortable with cervical dislocation for rabbits 2.2lbs or less (I prefer the hopper popper to the broomstick method) or with a bolt gun for rabbits larger than 2.2lbs. (The larger rabbits have thicker muscles on the neck that may make cervical dislocation difficult and less humane) These both offer near instantaneous and painless deaths. 

I'm a big believer that if at all possible our food animals should have a peaceful death - as such I always made sure to handle and interact with my kits so that when the time came for them to become food, it was just another day for them and they didn't see it coming. 

Also... If you really are squeamish about doing it yourself... Maybe check any local homesteading/farming/raw feeding groups in your area and see if you can strike up a partnership with someone... You raise the rabbits, then they do the dispatching and the two of you split the harvest.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Also... If you really are squeamish about doing it yourself... Maybe check any local homesteading/farming/raw feeding groups in your area and see if you can strike up a partnership with someone... You raise the rabbits, then they do the dispatching and the two of you split the harvest.


^ Good advice. I enjoy raising & breeding, and monkeying around with fodder and such - I don't enjoy the end. I've done this, and the arrangement is great because the other person gets great quality stuff to put in their own freezer after only a single afternoon of work. Win/Win.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

WIBackpacker said:


> ^ Good advice. I enjoy raising & breeding, and monkeying around with fodder and such - I don't enjoy the end. I've done this, and the arrangement is great because the other person gets great quality stuff to put in their own freezer after only a single afternoon of work. Win/Win.


That would work for me; head in the sand and not knowing who you feed for your dog's dinner.


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

When I used to raise meat rabbits (I need to get back into it) I used the broomstick method most of the time, I did use a pellet gun to the base of the brain a couple of times, but I prefer cervical dislocation better. I was always worried I would miss the spot with the gun. Of course that was for us to eat, you wouldn't want to use the gun for feeding dogs. You should check out the forum RabbitTalk.com lots of people on there butcher there own rabbits


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## kekipi (Oct 31, 2016)

Broomstick worked well for me when I did meat rabbits. If you are going to be processing regularly there's a neat metal contraption that attaches to a sturdy table that accomplishes the same thing....sort of like a large metal hook where you hold the rabbit then slide the head/neck quickly into the hooked area to dislocate. I bred satins, which were not quite as fast gaining as a new Zealand but had gorgeous fur for selling. Would love to get back into it at some point, though I have to say that the old "breeding like rabbits" thing was a bit misleading.....surprisingly finicky breeders at times, and there's nothing quite so unexpectedly traumatizing as going out to check on a doe and seeing that she ate pieces of the kits :-/


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## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

I raise coturnix quail. Not for the dog, although a few have accidentally found their way into his belly in the course of this dog thing they call "raising a puppy." I guess that answers the question of whether he knows they are food? LOL. We primarily eat their eggs (as does the dog), but I have considered raising them for meat for the dog too. We just don't have the room where I currently live to have that kind of operation. 

Dispatching them is fairly easy though (you just cut the head off with sharp scissors) and takes about a second. I was a bit squeamish the first time but it's really quick for them so that makes it better in my opinion. I looked for the most humane method and after doing it for awhile now I'm a fan of the sharp scissors...it's fast for them and fast for you. Their necks are about a 1/4" inch thick so it is really just a quick snip and they're gone. Then you dip them in a hot water bath to release the feathers, slice down the backbone and pull out the innards and voila. The innards are great for the dog too. One standard jumbo quail dresses out to about 10 oz of meat and bone so they can be a decent meals if you're looking for a little variety. Plus, they are cheap, quiet and easy to raise, plus you get the side benefit of eggs. And perhaps a tad less monstrous to raise for meat than cute little bunnies  

Anyway, I applaud any effort to feed home-raised meat. It's typically going to be healthier just by default and you have the opportunity to really play with the feed quality to make your meat source even more nutritious


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

I've been looking into raising rabbits for meat. Considering the colony method since I have the space. I use to raise them for 4H, but have never gone the meat route. Dispatching would be the hardest part. Butchering doesn't bother me and since it would be for dogs I'd likely just skin and freeze. I like the idea of raising my own meat. Also thinking about raising chickens as well, already have a few for eggs. I actually know someone who would dispatch and take care of the plucking. I have considered quail, but during my research wasn't able to find a hatchery that would ship chicks.


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

If you are raising them on site I would recommend processing first. Anything I'm raising on the property for food I process first then feed. I don't want them thinking about the free buffet on the property. So if it has hair and is running around they know they are not suppose to enjoy a meal. One safety step. It seems to work for me they know its food running in front of them but, they also know the rules.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

We do have the property but it is so darn hard to kill them. I hate myself for being such a hypocrite to buy anonymous meat. I admire people who raise their own meat. I have to look for someone where I can bring the animals and pick them up as dog food. It would be nice to have a barn with bunnies or guinea pigs though and give them a good life first. Quite the Christmas spirit.....


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> We do have the property but it is so darn hard to kill them. I hate myself for being such a hypocrite to buy anonymous meat. I admire people who raise their own meat. I have to look for someone where I can bring the animals and pick them up as dog food. It would be nice to have a barn with bunnies or guinea pigs though and give them a good life first. Quite the Christmas spirit.....


Post on Craigslist in the Farm & Garden Section that you're looking for someone to partner with in this project. My experience has been that subforum is full of interesting people who aren't weirdly offended (like the oft-emotional & tyrannical Pet subforum). 

Raising rabbits is enjoyable... they're quiet, they can eat all of your yard and landscape clippings, and you can give them a really good life. And sprouting is pretty, and green, and nice to look at during winter.  I started sprouting lots of wheatgrass and sunflower/safflower for my chickens during the winter months, it's nice to have the greenery... and the animals love it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

WIBackpacker said:


> Post on Craigslist in the Farm & Garden Section that you're looking for someone to partner with in this project. My experience has been that subforum is full of interesting people who aren't weirdly offended (like the oft-emotional & tyrannical Pet subforum).
> 
> Raising rabbits is enjoyable... they're quiet, they can eat all of your yard and landscape clippings, and you can give them a really good life. And sprouting is pretty, and green, and nice to look at during winter.  I started sprouting lots of wheatgrass and sunflower/safflower for my chickens during the winter months, it's nice to have the greenery... and the animals love it.


Good idea!! Thanks.


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## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

I sprout for the quail, parrots and my family, it's a great source of nutrition!

Bramble, most people won't ship quail chicks because they're just too fragile. You might be able to find day olds from someone local on CL, but if you're going to go to the trouble to have the set up for day olds, might as well hatch them yourself too. Quail grow super fast - they're ready for eating by about 8-9 weeks.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I am totally with you, Wolfy. I feel like such a hypocrite buying factory-farmed meat and being too sentimental to raise my own. 

I don't know if hiring someone else to do it would completely solve my problem, though. I'd still be the one ordering their deaths. Absolutely the most humane way to raise meat, no question, it's just I am pretty much a softie when it comes to any animal I know or raised. I can hunt wild game, and fishing is OK. 

I'd be a bit afraid to try, because I don't want to end up with 100 rabbits.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I raise chickens for eggs and meat for ourselves and the dogs. We've had the chickens a few years now and a few times a year we process. I'm a born and raised city girl, was vegetarian for many years and even vegan for a while, so moving to the country and raising friendly little chickens and then picking the ones to be processed was very difficult at first, still is honestly. I'm fortunate that my boyfriend is a hunter and farm boy. He does the killing/dipping/plucker and I pick which chickens to go and I butcher them. We get a good groove going. And at the end of the day I feel so satisfied that I provided food for us and gave my chickens a great life. I often think of getting into rabbits, they grow faster (my chickens are dual purpose so I generally process at 19 weeks instead of the 8 weeks that meat chickens are processed at). But that is more cages to clean and I just haven't gotten the guts to try it yet. 
As for the 'will your dog recognize prey' question. I would have thought no until a few weeks ago. I feed raw but have never fed anything with feathers or fur still attached. I was integrating young ducks to the older flock so had gone out to the barn earlier than usual to check on them and let the ducks out into their pen. I left my one male dog out after that. This is my most trustworthy dog and he regularly goes into the chicken coop with me to do chores, he is the last dog I would have thought would eat any of my stock. So anyways, I let the ducks into their pen (6' fence around the pen) and left the dog loose in the yard. My beautiful call duck drake decided that this morning was the first time he was going to fly out of the pen. Dog got him. I went outside a little while later and there is Eli eating something amidst a pile of feathers, I hoped it was a seagull. Nope, it was my call drake. I called him off and he never touched it again. I was seriously impressed with the raw instinct a dog has, and gave me a good reminder that although we love them, they are still a little wild. He pulled the feathers away, opened the duck up and ate everything but the intestines and the head. I am not proud that my dog ate my duck, but he ate it just the way his wild ancestors would. For a dog who has not ever been fed anything like that to understand that it was food and how to get to the food. Fascinating imho. 
Needless to say, all the ducks had their wing feathers trimmed that day.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> I am totally with you, Wolfy. I feel like such a hypocrite buying factory-farmed meat and being too sentimental to raise my own.
> 
> I don't know if hiring someone else to do it would completely solve my problem, though. I'd still be the one ordering their deaths. Absolutely the most humane way to raise meat, no question, it's just I am pretty much a softie when it comes to any animal I know or raised. I can hunt wild game, and fishing is OK.
> 
> I'd be a bit afraid to try, because I don't want to end up with 100 rabbits.


You are braver than I am. I love fishing but not catching and unhooking them. I think the best way for me to get over this is to have so many same color/coated rabbits that culling is a given before making it to the local news. Raising beef or pork is out of the question as it will become a trained pet.
Our community is pet and rescue friendly/obsessed so I have to keep my meat farm a secret.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> You are braver than I am. I love fishing but not catching and unhooking them. I think the best way for me to get over this is to have so many same color/coated rabbits that culling is a given before making it to the local news. Raising beef or pork is out of the question as it will become a trained pet.
> Our community is pet and rescue friendly/obsessed so I have to keep my meat farm a secret.


I think you can be really successful. When you acquire the rabbits/chickens, you will already know why you have them. Just hold that in your mind, it's a different way of thinking. All the careful types of research that apply to raw feeding dogs and choosing parasite/vaccine protocols can be done for animals intended for harvest. If you focus on giving the animals a good quality of life, without any unnecessary stress, it's meaningful.

I think it also turns humans into more grateful carnivores... less likely to leave chicken on their plate and scrape it into the trash, more likely to utilize the whole animal from nose to tail. 

If you decide to take the plunge, I can PM you a few good (closed) Facebook groups where you can ask questions and receive good answers.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

WIBackpacker said:


> If you decide to take the plunge, I can PM you a few good (closed) Facebook groups where you can ask questions and receive good answers.


Please do. Thank you


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> How about CO2 gas?


I have pythons, and I euthanize their rats with Co2 in a chamber I made myself with a rubbermaid container and paintball gun CO2 bottle and nozzle fitted into container.

HOWEVER if they were easier to hold onto while alive, I'd choose cervical dislocation as my first humane choice. Whether or not the chamber is humane depends on how you make it, and how you dispense gas, You have to watch and adjust flow accordingly so they get stoned first, then faster to end it. Too fast too soon and you rupture their lungs. Too slow and they are aware they are asfixiating. Research methods and it can be done humanely if you can't bring yourself to dislocate.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> If you focus on giving the animals a good quality of life, without any unnecessary stress, it's meaningful.


This. 

It's a bit morbid, but something that I found really helped me get over the hump and being able to process my own livestock was taking a good hard look at the reality of factory farming. The conditions the animals are kept and raised in, the quality of their feed, and how they are butchered in large quantities...

It's comforting to me to know that the rabbit that is nourishing my dog grew up with ample space to play with its siblings. It was kept clean. It had a non wired place to rest it's feet. It had a diet supplemented with all the whole fresh foods that buns love. It was handled and knew affection. It received appropriate veterinary care when sick or injured. And when the end came... it knew no fear. It had as peaceful of a death as it can be.

Such a huuuuuuuuuuge difference from the life of the meat you buy in the grocery store. Anyways... that always helped me when it came time to pick who was going to freezer camp and getting them ready for that trip. 



> I think it also turns humans into more grateful carnivores... less likely to leave chicken on their plate and scrape it into the trash, more likely to utilize the whole animal from nose to tail.


It DOES. I just carried a bunch of chicken wing bones from the park where we had a little picnic back home because there was still a bit of meat on them and I figured it was better to give them to my rats then send them to the landfill! LOL

I feel so guilty tossing meat.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

voodoolamb said:


> Anyways... that always helped me when it came time to pick who was going to freezer camp and getting them ready for that trip.
> .


:grin2:

Question: how many rabbits do you have to keep to feed two dogs rabbit three times a week continuously? What kind of rabbits? Breed in a colony with a breeding male and how many breeding females? How long until the youngsters are ready for their 'freezer camp'?
Hubby wasn't too thrilled when I brought up this idea. He wants to built a barn for his tools and boat so I can design the rabbit quarters if time comes.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> :grin2:
> 
> Question: how many rabbits do you have to keep to feed two dogs rabbit three times a week continuously? What kind of rabbits? Breed in a colony with a breeding male and how many breeding females? How long until the youngsters are ready for their 'freezer camp'?
> Hubby wasn't too thrilled when I brought up this idea. He wants to built a barn for his tools and boat so I can design the rabbit quarters if time comes.


It really depends on what breed you pick up. What rabbit you pick up will depend a lot on what your plans are. Like I said before, I liked to off set the cost of raising the rabbits by selling their pelts. So I chose a dual purpose breed. They didn't have the fastest growth or the largest litter sizes, but they had gorgeous pelts so it worked for me. 

If you are looking just for good old meat rabbits - Sometimes I think it is better to get some good old meat crosses that are adapted to your area than purebreds. 

I raised rabbits a bit differently for the dogs than I did for myself - I harvested the dog rabbits at a smaller weight because I wanted the whole rabbit to be one meal. So I usually harvested at 6 weeks, most people harvest fryer rabbits at 8-9 weeks though. 

The average litter size is 6-7 kits. So depending on how big you grow the rabbits out, you're looking at one litter a week. It's pretty common for a doe to have 6 litters a year (They can have more but they wear out, I actually prefer to do 4-5 because my breeding does pretty much became pets and fewer litters are healthier in the long term). With the amount of rabbit you plan on feeding I'd be looking at getting 8-9 does and 1 buck. I'd probably set up 3 hutches/pens with 3 girls in each and move the buck from hutch to hutch every couple of weeks to stagger the breedings.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Very interesting and informative thread. We have a huge disconnect in our food supply with most people living in large developed areas. The idea of doing anything like what's being suggested here is foreign to most. 

Ive been interested in doing this with chickens, but never sure just how much work would be involved. My free time can be limited at certain times of the year and that's kept me from following through.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My hubby and I did some counting and it will be a big farming undertaking to provide for two dogs. It will require a change of lifestyle, but to me worth it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> My hubby and I did some counting and it will be a big farming undertaking to provide for two dogs. It will require a change of lifestyle, but to me worth it.


Just remind hubby that the best price you can get for fresh rabbit for the dogs runs around $5 a lb and you will be going through nearly 12lbs a week for 2 dogs (just feeding it 3X per week). So he can either agree to spend $250 a month or go build you some hutches 

Barring any total disasters - you'll break even on the initial set up costs and stock purchases the first year. 

Once you get a system going for yourself upkeep isn't too bad. With 10 buns you're looking at maybe 20 minutes daily tasks and 2 hours once a week for a good cleaning.

There's lots you can do with rabbits that can make raising them as your dog's primary meat source super affordable. I already mentioned tanning and selling hides but other stuff you can do:

If you are using raised hutches - put some red wiggler containers under the hutches. They'll compost the waste into some of the best stuff you can ever put on your garden - use it instead of store bought fertilizers for your own veggies or to grow some greens for the buns. Both the compost and the worms can be sold as well. 

As long as you don't use pesticides in your yard - make some rabbit tractors (Easy and fairly cheap way is to buy a few $50 48 inch wire dog crates and a sun screen kennel top from amazon. Flip the crate over so the top is the bottom, and cut the sunscreen to size to cover the top. and you're done!). FREE rabbit food AND less yard to mow. (For a few years I had the right amount of buns and tractors and didn't have to mow my back yard AT ALL!!! Just had to spend 5 minutes pulling the tractors a few feet twice a day!)

Sprout your own fodder for feed. Turn 50lbs worth of food into a couple hundred. Really reduces the costs. 

Rabbit sales - If you really enjoy the buns and the intricacies of breeding - working with pedigreed buns can be very rewarding. A few sales of high quality rabbits as pets or to others in the fancy will cover grain costs to sprout fodder for the year.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thank you Voodoo! I will save all this info. I think I'd rather use the rabbits myself fro meat after a good life vs selling them for a lonely life in a cage somewhere as a "pet".

In the NW summers can get pretty hot. Can this be an issue?


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

Summer heat can be a problem, just make sure they have good airflow and of course shade. I used frozen 2 liter bottles for them to lay against when it was really hot out. Bucks can also go sterile in the heat, so that is also something to watch out for. Most people don't breed during the hottest part of summer.

Also if you do let them graze on the grass you have to watch for coccidia and other internal parasites.

I really need to get me some more rabbits now!


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