# Advice: help me evaluate this litter



## the.siegel (Mar 15, 2020)

[Please note that this topic has been moved to Bloodlines & Pedigree and the poster is seeking input on the _pedigree_ of the litter listed below.]

Hi all,

I have been in contact with a breeder and they have so far been outstanding, extremely helpful and have assisted in finding the right dog for me.

I wanted to get expert advice on the the litter below, the breeder will soon pick out the most suitable puppy from the litter. My plan is to use the dog for avalanche rescue training, mountain guiding and potentially IPO1. I prefer a high drive and a dog that is not afraid of new situations. Visually I want a heavy-boned dog, blocky and large face. I have little experience with titles, DNA and line breeding and was looking to you for some help.

Vello x Rue (first litter from top)
or
SIRE // Pedigree Database
DAM

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts

Thank you,
S


----------



## K9SHOUSE (Jun 8, 2003)

There are several concerns for me. It appears their background is in cattle. Cattle can be mass farmed, but GSD'S should not be. Way to many dogs for breeding and current litters for me. I like smaller breeders. They appear to import and then breed. Nothing wrong with that, but most breeders do that small scale and with reference to bettering their breeding program.

Three big passes for me:
1. They breed dogs for police. Where are these dogs and their police handlers as proof? They should be showing these as brags or proof of quality. Titles they have put on dogs themselves?

2. Language used in site is worrisome pertaining to protection, guard, police dogs section. Also, how are guard and protection dogs ready "for immediate " delivery? Is there screening of homes?

3. In their video tour, why are they not showing the puppies in the breeding area? Even if the mother was not at her best, you should still show the pups rushing up to the video. HUGH marketing opportunity and emotional manipulation of buyers. This is not even ATTEMPTED to be staged.

What I see and don't see would tell me this breeder is not the right one for me. Some of these things may be able to be cleared up visiting there, but I feel based on your other posts, this may not be a breeder for SAR if that is what you want.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Are you part of a rescue team? If so, I would be talking to them about potential working prospects. If you are not a member of a team, I would find one first before getting the dog. 

If your interest is in IPO/IGP, I would look for a breeder that actually has dogs out there being titled and/or is titling dogs themselves. 

Something to keep in mind, not all SAR teams allow their search dogs to have "protection" training and that includes IPO/IGP. You will probably have to decide which of these areas you want to pursue depending on where you live. 

I tend to prefer smaller breeders that are actively working/titling their breeding stock and not just importing and/or making puppies. I, personally, would keep looking.


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

I noticed most of their dogs are RPD3 and tried to figure out what that is...it's an in-house title...meaningless IMO 
When breeders use marketing ploys like this it really sends up red flags to me.


----------



## K9SHOUSE (Jun 8, 2003)

I suggest you search for this kennel within this website. There have been a couple threads that can provide information on them.


----------



## the.siegel (Mar 15, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your responses. As far as I can see, the dogs are all titled, most of them are not imported and their breeding process couldn't be more transparent with videos on Facebook and Instagram. RPD means retried police dog, and their website shows a lot of activity around their work with the SFPD. 

I understand the scepticism towards larger breeders, but to be honest I prefer their customer service and provided information over breeders that haven't updated their website since 2001. I am a little perplexed about some of the comments, not sure what their background in cattle farming has to do with their current operation. Most mom/pop breeders I have spoken to have other jobs as well. 

Anyways, if someone could please help in reviewing only the pedigree I would highly appreciate it.


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

RPD3 doesn't mean retired police dog


----------



## the.siegel (Mar 15, 2020)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> RPD3 doesn't mean retired police dog


So what does it mean?


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

as I posted above, it's an "in-house" title or evaluation - meaningless IMO.
I can say that my dogs are OTTGD4 and SSLP8 - it means nothing


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

almost 4K for a male puppy (and for some reason they price males/females differently by $500!!) out of an untitled bitch...I charge half of that for puppies out of two IPO 3, breed survey'd dogs... wow


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

the.siegel said:


> Thanks everyone for your responses. As far as I can see, the dogs are all titled, most of them are not imported and their breeding process couldn't be more transparent with videos on Facebook and Instagram. RPD means retried police dog, and their website shows a lot of activity around their work with the SFPD.
> 
> I understand the scepticism towards larger breeders, but to be honest I prefer their customer service and provided information over breeders that haven't updated their website since 2001. I am a little perplexed about some of the comments, not sure what their background in cattle farming has to do with their current operation. Most mom/pop breeders I have spoken to have other jobs as well.
> 
> Anyways, if someone could please help in reviewing only the pedigree I would highly appreciate it.


When you deal with large police depts, you have to have a pretty decent supply of dogs. Maybe they're good, maybe they wash and need to be replaced on demand. The cattle thing has to do with the founder citing that background for his knowledge in genetics. On the sire's side, I see Stadtfeld a few times. I've seen people post that they like that name. I see some recognizable names on the bottom half of the dam's side, others may know some of the names on the top half. Are you local? Can you go see the dogs for yourself?


----------



## the.siegel (Mar 15, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> When you deal with large police depts, you have to have a pretty decent supply of dogs. Maybe they're good, maybe they wash and need to be replaced on demand. The cattle thing has to do with the founder citing that background for his knowledge in genetics. On the sire's side, I see Stadtfeld a few times. I've seen people post that they like that name. I see some recognizable names on the bottom half of the dam's side, others may know some of the names on the top half. Are you local? Can you go see the dogs for yourself?


Thanks @Steve Strom, indeed they are often mentioned as one of the best breeders in California. I was in touch with a few others but they have no litters coming up in the next 6 months. I am planning to drive there soon to see the dogs.


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

the.siegel said:


> indeed they are often mentioned as one of the best breeders in California


by whom??


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd want to see the parents show the qualities you're looking for. Show me some serious hunt drive somewhere off the property.


----------



## the.siegel (Mar 15, 2020)

Thanks @Steve Strom. We spent a lot of time discussing my needs. Initially I was more interested in this pup but it didnt match the drive I want. 

Could you, if you have time, explain me the importance of line breeding? The stud of the littler we chose is this boy.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Line breeding is a way of maintaining qualities of previous dogs. I'm not much into pedigrees and my only real thought on breeding is as simple as breed good to good to keep it that way. Not real deep or informative, but maybe someone else will see this and fill in some blanks.


----------



## K9SHOUSE (Jun 8, 2003)

lhczth said:


> Are you part of a rescue team? If so, I would be talking to them about potential working prospects. If you are not a member of a team, I would find one first before getting the dog.


I think this is the best advice posted so far in this thread. I am sure your local SAR team can point you in the right direction for breeders and the extensive training you would need to undertake with the pup. 

To your point about breeders updating their sites, I guess it depends on the breeder. Some update on Facebook more than their website. One of the breeders near me who is probably one of the best in the country for working and selectively producing her dogs, rarely updates her Facebook. Another high level breeder is more active on Facebook, but updates her website when she has a litter. She also has a private one as many breeders do for their puppy families.

I don't have any contacts in CA to help you look into breeders or people who train police dogs there. If you are really serious about finding a dog and want to get one from an organization/breeder/trainer who supplies police or military dogs, then I suggest you compare them to the site below. I do not personally know Greg, but have met some of his dogs that are working in the field. Perhaps if you email him, he can give you a recommendation on a breeder or trainer or SAR club to contact in CA for more help.









ABOUT


Welcome to Upstate K-9 L.L.C., located in Upstate New York. We are a working Police K-9 Kennel. Upstate K-9 was founded over a decade ago. We are a relatively small stressing quality over...



www.upstatek9.com


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

OP, i believe that the section you chose to post, the title of the thread and the content of your first post may have lead to some confusion and the responses you’ve received not being specifically what you’re looking for. it’s fine, it happens... i would offer to edit and move your post to the Bloodline & Pedigree section but i think some good information has been provided in the thread as is.

just an observation.

best of luck to you!


----------



## the.siegel (Mar 15, 2020)

Fodder said:


> OP, i believe that the section you chose to post, the title of the thread and the content of your first post may have lead to some confusion and the responses you’ve received not being specifically what you’re looking for. it’s fine, it happens... i would offer to edit and move your post to the Bloodline & Pedigree section but i think some good information has been provided in the thread as is.
> 
> just an observation.
> 
> best of luck to you!


Thanks @Fodder sent you a PM


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

this is how I evaluate a litter: https://www.searchdogs.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Volhard-Puppy-Aptitude-Test.pdf

ask around with some SAR folk about what to look for in terms of scores/numbers


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

the.siegel said:


> Thanks everyone for your responses. As far as I can see, the dogs are all titled, most of them are not imported and their breeding process couldn't be more transparent with videos on Facebook and Instagram. RPD means retried police dog, and their website shows a lot of activity around their work with the SFPD.
> 
> I understand the scepticism towards larger breeders, but to be honest I prefer their customer service and provided information over breeders that haven't updated their website since 2001. I am a little perplexed about some of the comments, not sure what their background in cattle farming has to do with their current operation. Most mom/pop breeders I have spoken to have other jobs as well.
> 
> Anyways, if someone could please help in reviewing only the pedigree I would highly appreciate it.



this is a very very very commercial kennel producing a large number of puppies....it is a breeder in that sense - but not a breeder in the sense of a person who is a student of the breed. It is a business with employees - quite a few employees...not a breeder who is hands on with every puppy they produce.....

There is always scuttlebutt about these big commercial kennels....we don't cite or repeat any of that info here...but this is a profit oriented business with a product. Think vehicle sales....they want you to buy from them and are expert in sales PR. I have seen a few young dogs from KK....none of which I would have bought or been happy to have produced.

I also have some experience with some of the bloodlines in this litter. Through friends dogs, and a dog I personally imported. And through litters I bred with some common bloodlines. I sincerely would say that I would NOT expect to get the strength of hunt drive and ability needed for a "real" SAR dog.....I have produced - out of my own 3-5 generations of breeding dogs - pups who are certified and on active SAR teams. I also am producing dogs with terrific hunt drive and natural tracking ability - no withholding food to make my dogs track! I understand where that is coming from in my pedigrees, and where it is not present in the pedigrees you are citiing. IMO - commercial breedig is breeding for extreme drive without balance and understanding, without experience raising and training generations of a family but obviously with awareness of popular names, reliance on trial results and marketing.

Lee


----------



## the.siegel (Mar 15, 2020)

Thanks @Berno, the breeder actually told me they will apply the Volhard method. This is super helpful to see the document though. thanks


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

the.siegel said:


> Vello x Rue (first litter from top)
> or
> SIRE // Pedigree Database
> DAM


I'm certainly no expert and this won't be helpful. But if you post ped links, I can't resist.
Found a couple of wild ones way WAY back there.








_SZ 48918_ (kelpie? pinscher? terrier?)









SZ 368  dutch? hyena?









_SZ 1710__ could that perhaps be a photo of el capitan?_

None of the above "unique ancestors" exert any tangible influence on the ped in question. Think of these as "cave paintings" depicting the breed's origins.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

couple more wild ones








SZ36723









SZ62739 I've always admired this photo.

Very interesting ped to study in terms of divergence of type (gwl vs akc) within the breed.


----------



## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

the.siegel said:


> [Please note that this topic has been moved to Bloodlines & Pedigree and the poster is seeking input on the _pedigree_ of the litter listed below.]
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> ...


If I read the pedigree right, this looks like a litter that was breed by someone who pays attention to male-line breeding.

It appears, that Vello's sire line is the 4th bloodline going back to Utz vom haus shutting. Further the dam of Vello is also line 4.

Rue's sire line is 4th bloodline as well and dam is line 3.

Just from the male bloodlines I would say this litter will be fairly consistent, produce super natural protection, early working, very good tracking, square dogs, and some may also have a genetic propensity for handler aggression.

This litter may also produce naturally civil dogs sometimes referred to as Type 1 dogs that don't require training to bite.

I personally love the traits of line 4.

Now, whether or not this a suitable breeding for your requirements is another story.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I’ve been on a ped kick for a couple weeks now. When you see wall to wall performance 3’s, you pretty well know a ped is going to take you back to all the usual suspects. After awhile it’s like meat and potatoes. At this point I find myself more drawn to whatever unique ancestor photos a given ped has to offer.









Not sure, but I think SHSB might be swiss?

I find the dam’s ped refreshingly diverse. There again no shortage of performance titles behind the maternal grandsire's line (usual suspects). Aside from that I see “OFA excellent," guide dog breeding stock, and a nice little trail to outbreeding, all the way down there at the bottom, where many believe (_myself included_) it belongs.

There’s a wide variety of traits in every litter. SAR instructors and experienced handlers will be more knowledgeable and forthcoming about what to look for in a SAR candidate, rather than breeders.

Fun ped! I've enjoyed looking at it.


----------

