# No papers and this is the best GSD



## gregalabama (Jan 5, 2011)

It pains me that this dog of mine has no papers to akc him "official" If anyone knows how I can make him "oficial" please email me to buchanan . greg AT gmail dot therest. He is one year old and has a great 'tude, and he is right at 100 lbs. (1 year old) I went to the yearly dog day and he was the attention getter, the other shepherds couldn't compare. What can I do???


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I don't really understand what you are trying to ask.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

What a lovely dog. He looks very happy. He doesn't need papers to make him official unless you plan to show him in conformation or breed him.


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## gregalabama (Jan 5, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I don't really understand what you are trying to ask.



get papers for him so I can breed him. He is by far the best GSD.  I know he is mine, but look at him, he is the best one, and as far as the AKC see's, he is a mutt...


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

Me either. Are you trying to find out how to replace his registration papers? Or was he never registered and you want to have him AKC registered?

ETA: Nevermind. opcorn:


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## gregalabama (Jan 5, 2011)

AddieGirl said:


> Me either. Are you trying to find out how to replace his registration papers? Or was he never registered and you want to have him AKC registered?
> 
> ETA: Nevermind.


I bought him from people that don't keep up with papers... I got him in centerpoint (Birmingham) area of Alabama.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

gregalabama said:


> get papers for him so I can breed him. He is by far the best GSD.  I know he is mine, but look at him, he is the best one, and as far as the AKC see's, he is a mutt...


What makes him the best GSD? What does he have to offer to the German Shepherd breed? Have you had his hips checked?What kind of titles does he have?Has he been test for other health issues?Are you willing to take back any of his offspring at anytime no matter what? Are you going to offer a guarantee?Are you willing to keep in contact with buyers if they have any issues with their puppies? Are you going to make sure his offspring don't end up in shelters or rescues? Why are you breeding?

We all think our dogs are the best. I think my dogs are the best. But that is NOT a reason they should be bred. AKC papers mean nothing. The only thing they mean is that the dog is a purebred. Nothing else.


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## gregalabama (Jan 5, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> What makes him the best GSD? What does he have to offer to the German She Why are you breeding?


I'm not yet b breeding him, but look at the boy, he's perfect. I feel it would be an injustice not to breed him.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

gregalabama said:


> I'm not yet b breeding him, but look at the boy, he's perfect. I feel it would be an injustice not to breed him.


So? Yes he is a nice looking GSD, but looks are NOT the only reason you should be breeding him. No, it wouldn't be an injustice.

If I were looking for a puppy. I would rather have a ugly GSD that was healthy, smart, great temperament, and great trainability, than a pretty one that is unhealthy, behavioral issues.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If both his parents are AKC registered then his litter could be registered. And if his litter is registered, then he and his littermates can be registered. But if the litter wasn't registered because one or both parents weren't registered, then there's nothing you can do. 

And no, it is not an injustice to not breed every good looking dog out there, no matter how much we love them. We all think our dogs are "the best", but most of them are not truly breeding material.

If you think he's a great representative of the breed why don't you go back the people you bought him from and get another dog from them. Are they still breeding the parents? A puppy out of him would only have half his genes.


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## gregalabama (Jan 5, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If both his parents are AKC registered then his litter could be registered. And if his litter is registered, then he and his littermates can be registered. But if the litter wasn't registered because one or both parents weren't registered, then there's nothing you can do.
> 
> And no, it is not an injustice to not breed every good looking dog out there, no matter how much we love them. We all think our dogs are "the best", but most of them are not truly breeding material.
> 
> If you think he's a great representative of the breed why don't you go back the people you bought him from and get another dog from them. Are they still breeding the parents? A puppy out of him would only have half his genes.



They have no papers.... I guess I'll slice him  He's really the best. Even AKC GSD owners tell me that.. Ohh well,.... (here's where I hush my mouth....)


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## Floppy (Feb 26, 2011)

gregalabama said:


> They have no papers.... I guess I'll slice him  He's really the best. Even AKC GSD owners tell me that.. Ohh well,.... (here's where I hush my mouth....)


He's a great looking dog! But I think slicing is good decision. I don't think he'll care whether or not he's been bred as long as he has a good life


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Floppy said:


> He's a great looking dog! But I think slicing is good decision. I don't think he'll care whether or not he's been bred as long as he has a good life


I agree. It's not like he experiences great joys of fatherhood if all of the puppies leave him relatively soon after birth.

But more importantly, if you breed him and the puppies don't turn out as well as you think, like health and temperament problems, it might taint your image of the great dog that you have. Why mess with something that you love so much and risk it being remembered not so perfectly?


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

There are litterailly thousands of purbred GSD's in shelters across the country. They were bred by someone with the same mentality as you (IMHO). "My dog is the best and I want to carry that on" or "I just want one puppy out of him/her". What about the other puppies in the litter? I consider myself a reputable breeder, and right now I have a two year old from the first litter at my house waiting for his next home. (He has one, just have to get him there). That is what a reputable breeder does. None of my puppies will ever end up in a shelter. Can you guarentee that??? Can you guarentee the he will not pass on hip displaysia, IBD, eye problems, DM, etc? How does he compare to the standard?? What titles have to put on him to prove breed worthiness?? (And you can enter him in AKC classes, did you know that??) Did you know he can be worked and titled in Schutzhund?? But titles are not everything, either. They are just part of the package we look for in a quality GSD.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

gregalabama said:


> They have no papers.... I guess I'll slice him  He's really the best. Even AKC GSD owners tell me that.. Ohh well,.... (here's where I hush my mouth....)


Good for YOU! And welcome to the world of 'responsible pet ownership'!

I have papered dogs (lot's of it  )with TITLES, fame and glory...:wild: But I always spay/neuter cause I don't know enough to be a responsible breeder... http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html <-- click that to see what's involved.

And if I was NOT a responsible breeder I can just go to the GSD Rescue Information - German Shepherd Dog Forums on this board to see tons of purebred, smart, many PAPERED GSD's that are in rescues and shelters and are getting put down every day in the USA.

I'm not adding to that number and the only way to KNOW it is with the spay/neuter.

BTW, you still can't breed your boy, but you CAN register with the AKC if you want to really show off your dog and start up training with Obedience/Agility/Herding/Rally/Tracking......


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

When the dog is neutered, you can get performance papers from AKC so that you can go to obedience - agility - tracking events. BUT he must be neutered (or as you say "sliced").

The GSD was the second most registered breed last year in AKC - that means over 100,000 puppies born to registered litters and does not count the secondary registration organizations. I would *guesstimate* that 80% of those litters are from pet owners or puppy mill commercial businesses, and probably 2-4% of those dogs will end up in a shelter euthanized before they are 2 years old. Many pet owners love their dogs, and do not know the standard, understand the standard or why there is a standard, and as dawnandjr say, just want a puppy from their dog without any forethought or concern about the fate of the rest of the litter. 

He looks like a nice pet black and silver, and many many people love that look. I had a black and silver female in the late 90's and I cannot tell you how many people wanted a puppy from her! I loved her but she did not meet the standard and was spayed. 

Enjoy your dog, do something with him when he is neutered, and learn about the breed and when you want another GSD, you may understand what responsible breeding is all about.

Good luck!

Lee


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## AgileOllie (May 13, 2011)

gregalabama said:


> I'm not yet b breeding him, but look at the boy, he's perfect. I feel it would be an injustice not to breed him.


INJUSTICE?? Injustice is the THOUSANDS of "perfect" dogs just like yours who are killed in shelters EVERY DAY because of mentalities like yours.


Sorry everyone else, I know I'm new here, but this irks the crap right out of me.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

AgileOllie said:


> Sorry everyone else, I know I'm new here, but this irks the crap right out of me.


It does me too!!!


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## AuberryShortcake (Mar 9, 2010)

I don't usually respond to these kind of posts, but...
Do the world, and any furture puppies a favor and don't breed your awesome guy. Aside from the responsible breeder angle already brought up, there are enough homeless pets in this world created by people with truly awesome dogs that it would have been an injustice not to breed. Unless you have watched the life go out of a 7 month old or younger pup whose only crime was to be "bigger than we thought he would get", "Untrainable, poops all over my house", "Won't stop jumping on the kids in the back yard", "We're moving and can't take him with us", "We just don't have enough time for him, and we know you'll find him a good home". And that is just some of the excuses I have heard. And unless you plan on bing responsible neough to be will ing to take all of his kiddo's in if the owners don't want him, these things will happen. And some shelter workers will have to watch another dog die because of your selfishness. I was one of those shelter workers once, it is a miserable end for any dog, no matter how humane we try to be.

Of course, if the OP is looking to make money off of stud fees from his "awesome" dog then he doesn't care about any of this, and I have wasted my time, but for some reason this just got my goat thi morning.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

If you really want to see if he's the best GSD, you could get him a registration number with the AKC and have him compete against other "papered" GSDs... Nothing beats winning against dogs "better bred" than yours


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gregalabama said:


> They have no papers.... I guess I'll slice him  He's really the best. Even AKC GSD owners tell me that..


Well unfortunately, without papers you know nothing about his heritage and you can't PROVE that he's "the best". My dogs are AKC registered, so I can go back many generations in their pedigrees and research the dogs there If I want to. But that still doesn't mean they are worthy of being bred. 

Anyone who admires my dogs and would like one "just like them" is free to contact the breeders I got them from, but my dogs are speutered so they're not getting a puppy from me!


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

I thought I had the best GSD-numerous times.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Lets look further beyond the emotion this kind of threads brings and how many dogs die in shelters.

But the truth is that genetics is far more complicated than: 
PERFECT MOM + PERFECT DAD = PERFECT PUPPIES

Oooh, if it where so simple! But the reality is that your dog could be perfect, should be the next Sieger, BOB, VA1, IPO III, SchH III, WUSV Champion, whathever, and... produce mediocre pups because breeding is not putting 2 dogs together, is putting 2 pedigrees together and knowing exactly what those dogs brings to the table then try to be able to predict what the litter will be. Without a pedigree, and I don't mean the paper, but the knowdlege of the dog's background, your dog could be the next GSD messiah and yet shouldn't be bred.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

lrodptl said:


> I thought I had the best GSD-numerous times.


I think we ALL do


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## Ponypip123 (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that  I have the best GSD!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I have the best dog ever. Seriously. She's the greatest. She's fabulous and amazing and wonderful. OH! And best of all!!! She's not spayed!!! She doesnt try to bite anyone. She's smart as all heck. She's only a year old and already because of how she behaves people think she's older than that. Would i breed her? HECK FREAKING NO! She is NOT breeding material. She has not done anything to PROVE she's breeding material. She DOES NOT have papers. She will NOT have papers. She may be the best dog to me, but that doesnt make her worth breeding. Not a snowballs chance. I dont know enough about pedigree's, breeding, titles or any of that to even attempt to breed. Neuter your dog and move on. There are thousands of dogs in shelters who are "perfect" and all you want to do is add to the problem without proving your dog. I've had several "perfect" animals. still wouldnt breed them. I'm not knowledgable enough to even think about trying and its a subject i refuse to learn because its not something i need to know about or be tempted by.


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## JazzNScout (Aug 2, 2008)

I had a GSD with hips & health guaranteed, etc. and she had hip dysplasia and spondylosis diagnosed by the time she was 4. So even WITH the guarantees, nothing is guaranteed. 

On top of that, it is usually an injustice to breed dogs, not an injustice _not_ to breed them. Why? Because in a 6 year period, an unspayed female and an unneutered male, and all their unspayed/unneutered puppies can lead up to 67,000 dogs. 

German shepherds are dying every day along with other dogs in shelters across the country. Until that comes to an end, I say no to breeding and, no offense to anyone here, but I will not buy from a breeder again. (I also say no to pet shops, puppy mills, etc.)


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

My own dog has many titles from multiple sports, is AKC registered, has OFA excellent hips and normal elbows, is very stable, and social. To sum him up: he's a VERY nice dog. He's intact too. The problem is that he's just a very nice dog. There are a lot of excellent males out there and those are the ones that should be bred, not mine. I get asked all the time to breed my dog and it's just not going to happen.

You should love your dog and think he's the greatest, but get him neutered so he doesn't ever breed.


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## mfj (May 14, 2011)

To the original poster:

Your *inappropriate insults** is astounding! He's a good looking dog but **removed by admin insulting poster not allowed** and I honestly feel bad for him. You still haven't even gave a reason why he is "the best". Your only response is "look at him. He's the best"... How old are you now? Do the world a favor and don't breed him.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

mfj said:


> Your **removed** He's a good looking dog but you ***removed*** and I honestly feel bad for him. You still haven't even gave a reason why he is "the best". Your only response is "look at him. He's the best"... How old are you now? Do the world a favor and don't breed him.


 
whoa way to attack the wrong person....


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

You can't just "get" a registration number from AKC. Both parents have to be registered before the litter is born and the litter registered before AKC will issue papers. 
The OP stated the "breeder" didn't keep up with paperwork, so no chance of registering his dog.
I kinda wonder if this is not a bit of trolling..


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## mfj (May 14, 2011)

KZoppa said:


> whoa way to attack the wrong person....


What you talkin' 'bout Willis? Lol jk... fixed...


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

mfj said:


> What you talkin' 'bout Willis? Lol jk... fixed...


 
LMAO! I totally just saw my daughter (who is almost 4) saying that. haha. She's heard my husband say it a few times so now any time i say What you talking bout? she adds in the Willis. Its hilarious. lol.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

mfj said:


> To the original poster:
> 
> Your***removed***! He's a good looking dog but **removed** and I honestly feel bad for him. You still haven't even gave a reason why he is "the best". Your only response is "look at him. He's the best"... How old are you now? Do the world a favor and don't breed him.


Isn't it lovely how people get the best of themselves trying to educate others in these web boards, instead of just bashing and denigrating others after having being in the said forum only a handful of times?


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> You can't just "get" a registration number from AKC. Both parents have to be registered before the litter is born and the litter registered before AKC will issue papers.
> The OP stated the "breeder" didn't keep up with paperwork, so no chance of registering his dog.
> I kinda wonder if this is not a bit of trolling..


 
Yes you can get your dog registered with the AKC. You cannot breed him with the registration. It allows you to compete in AKC events.
American Kennel Club - Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Yes, that is for PERFORMANCE events only. It is what used to be called an ILP, but has a different name now. The dogs HAVE to be neutered and they are not allowed in the breed ring at any time. To be in the conformation ring, they have to have full registration papers that have the purple outline.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

This is directly from the AKC site, they are allowed in Performance events, but not Conformation events. The OP could compete in those events, but that is not really putting his "perfect' dog against other GSD. Only Conformation events make it possible to have your dog judged against others of the same breed for Championship points. Performance events puts the "team" work of owner/dog to the test against themselves, not against the breed standard 

The Purebred Alternative Listing Program/Indefinite Listing Privilege (PAL/ILP) is designed to allow dogs to participate in AKC Companion and Performance Events. The AKC Events that a PAL/ILP dog can participate in are:

Agility Trials (All Breeds)
Earthdog Trials (Small Terriers and Dachshunds)
Herding Tests and Trials ( Herding Breeds, Rottweilers and Samoyeds)
Hunt Tests (Most Sporting Breeds and Standard Poodles)
Junior Showmanship (All Breeds)
Lure Coursing (Sighthounds)
Obedience Trials (All Breeds)
Rally Trials (All Breeds)
Tracking Tests (All Breeds)


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Good for YOU! And welcome to the world of 'responsible pet ownership'!
> 
> I have papered dogs (lot's of it  )with TITLES, fame and glory...:wild: But I always spay/neuter cause I don't know enough to be a responsible breeder... http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html <-- click that to see what's involved.
> 
> ...


 
Wyominggrandma...this is where he was recommended for the ILP/PAL. Never was the OP informed that they could get full registration with breeding rights. Read the posts fully please.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Um, I read all the posts, thank you.
BUT you said"If you really want to see if he's the best GSD, you could get him a registration number with the AKC and have him compete against other "papered" GSDs... Nothing beats winning against dogs "better bred" than yours " 

so, my comment was the ILP does not allow for a dog to compete in conformation events against other papered GSD. So he would not be winning against other GSD better bred than the OP, he would not be competing against other GSD for points towards Championships against the breed standard. He would be competing with his dog in performance events and not against the breed standard.
That was my comment to you jaggirl47, you made it sound like he could get AKC papers to compete against other GSD's, your post that I copied above had no mention of performance events.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> Um, I read all the posts, thank you.
> BUT you said"If you really want to see if he's the best GSD, you could get him a registration number with the AKC and have him compete against other "papered" GSDs... Nothing beats winning against dogs "better bred" than yours "
> 
> so, my comment was the ILP does not allow for a dog to compete in conformation events against other papered GSD. So he would not be winning against other GSD better bred than the OP, he would not be competing against other GSD for points towards Championships against the breed standard. He would be competing with his dog in performance events and not against the breed standard.
> That was my comment to you jaggirl47, you made it sound like he could get AKC papers to compete against other GSD's, your post that I copied above had no mention of performance events.


 
That first post you quoted is after it was recommended to the OP that he could do registration for competition in performance events. Not every competition has to do with conformation and the OP was never told he could compete in conformation. The OP was in fact informed that the dog could still not be bred with the registration. You just stated straight out that the OP cannot get his dog registered when in fact, he can.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> Um, I read all the posts, thank you.
> BUT you said"If you really want to see if he's the best GSD, you could get him a registration number with the AKC and have him compete against other "papered" GSDs... Nothing beats winning against dogs "better bred" than yours "
> 
> so, my comment was the ILP does not allow for a dog to compete in conformation events against other papered GSD. So he would not be winning against other GSD better bred than the OP, he would not be competing against other GSD for points towards Championships against the breed standard. He would be competing with his dog in performance events and not against the breed standard.
> That was my comment to you jaggirl47, you made it sound like he could get AKC papers to compete against other GSD's, your post that I copied above had no mention of performance events.


 
Also, as an FYI...that was not my post.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

That was me actually 
...I didn't realize my post would be so upsetting


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Jax's Mom said:


> That was me actually
> ...I didn't realize my post would be so upsetting


 
Didn't upset me.  I understood what you were saying.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Gee, excuse me for not being perfect. I apologize for mixing up the two posters. I don't apologize for the explanation. Alot of people think that BOTH kinds of AKC papers can compete in the conformation ring, I was just trying to explain the difference.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

It sounds better if you put it like this:

My Dog is Perfect | Xtranormal


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

ILP/PAL is not AKC registration though. It is just a listing number that allows your dog to compete in performance events.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I didn't read everyone's comments so I may be repeating what they say...
You cant have him registered with the AKC. They require proof of bloodlines and what not. In other words you would need papers from his breeder (from the AKC.) You could register him with the CKC (continental kennel club.) However the papers are pretty useless since it doesn't prove your dog is a pure bred. Im sure that someone has already said that at 100lbs at a year, your dog is above standard, and in the opinion of many on this forum should not be bred.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

To the OP:

This dog, your dog is a pet. But if you REALLY want to get into breeding, there are things you CAN do. You can take THIS dog get him sliced, and get the PAL number on him, then take him out and train him in MANY different venues. Get an obedience title on him, or two, or three. Go for tracking or herding. There are plenty of things you can do with this dog that will bring you closer to your goal, by meeting the people that will teach you to train, to trial, what to look for in a good dog, and all the other dog-issues. 

Take four years and train your dog, trial your dog, and learn, and network. THEN, buy a bitch, either a pup or a full-grown bitch, out of specific lines, and for a specific purpose -- not just breeding. 

Good luck.


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

Emoore said:


> It sounds better if you put it like this:
> 
> My Dog is Perfect | Xtranormal



:laugh:


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

here's the deal gregalabama...and although i mean no offense to you i'm gonna be blunt. your dog is only special because he is special to you, and because as a little soul in the universe he is special. as far as the german shepherd dog breed...no. here's the rest of the deal gregalabama...there are THOUSANDS of dear, sweet, souls belonging to german shepherd dogs dying in shelters throughout the WORLD, frankly there are WAY TOO MANY german shepherd dogs already. in answer to your question, you cannot register your boy. and you SHOULD NOT BREED HIM UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

again, although this may be hard for you to believe, i mean no offense to you. you simply do not understand. you are going down the wrong road, it takes a long, long, long, long time to understand the breed well enough to be a breeder.

period. the end.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

gregalabama said:


> They have no papers.... I guess I'll slice him  He's really the best. Even AKC GSD owners tell me that.. Ohh well,.... (here's where I hush my mouth....)


Bravo to the OP for making an education and informed decision. Hopefully he will stick to it.
And the discussion continues....


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

I can totally relate to how the OP feels. I went through a short phase where I considered studding out Mac. One of the reasons I considered it was because in my mind he was the most amazing thing that ever walked the earth (my other reasons are not applicable to this discussion). I bet the OP is just excited about his boy!


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## mfj (May 14, 2011)

**personal insults are inappropriate**


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

*removed insulting comments*

There is no need for personal attacks. This is not the board to do so. 

The op said he will be getting his dog fixed.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

mfj what an inappropriate and cruel comment.


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## mfj (May 14, 2011)

*personal insults inappropriate*


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

well there's a very well documented theory that what "gets to" one the most is the thing they most detest in themself. you're way too upset about someone else's intelligence of lack thereof. hope you don't stick around here too long. just my opinion.


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## mfj (May 14, 2011)

katieliz said:


> well there's a very well documented theory that what "gets to" one the most is the thing they most detest in themself. you're way too upset about someone else's intelligence of lack thereof. hope you don't stick around here too long. just my opinion.


Excuse me for getting upset about behavior that people display that leads to more deaths of GREAT DOGS! Yeah! Excuse me! I'm sure there are others on this board that get equally upset when we hear things like what the OP is saying. Only difference is that I actually voice my opinion.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

MFJ, I have edited a few of your posts on this subject, while many may disagree with the OP, atleast most have "tact" when voicing their opinion.

If you can't offer constructive criticism, suggestions or wish to educate in a TACTFUL manner, the OP, I would suggest you not post at all.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

sorry there's no excuse for cruelty or unkindness. actually many people have voiced their opinion on this thread, difference is that it's been in a constructive, educational, or tactful manner. we have great mods here who are diligent about removing posts from those who cannot conform to the rules of the board. thank goodness.


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## mfj (May 14, 2011)

katieliz said:


> sorry there's no excuse for cruelty or unkindness. actually many people have voiced their opinion on this thread, difference is that it's been in a constructive, educational, or tactful manner. we have great mods here who are diligent about removing posts from those who cannot conform to the rules of the board. thank goodness.


*removed* The moderator made the correction and we'll leave it at that. You aren't the moderator.


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## mfj (May 14, 2011)

No offense...


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## Texas_Eva (Apr 10, 2011)

This is a place where people come and talk the breed we love and exchange advice in situations like this. I can understand a desire to see the breed preserved but there is no need to be rude to the OP, or other members.

As for the original poster, Good luck to you bama in whatever you decide to do.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

My boy Havoc is a very fancy lad. His papers are impeccable and he is not yet neutered. An acquaintance also has a papered GSD female and has approached me about breeding them. I said that I have limited registration and she said that doesn't matter she just wants purebred puppies so we can share them with family and friends.

After I cleaned up the mess from my head exploding, I tried to explain that this kind of thinking is irresponsible and selfish. I know that some of Havoc's line are very reactive and this tendency has to be taken into account when looking at potential pedigree matches. Plus she claims that her pup's parents are both assistance dogs.( I guess that when the owner faints--they lick her back to consciousness. I don't know what would happen if they weren't there.) This woman thinks that I'm being very unreasonable for not wanting to breed my WGSL with her BYB. The fact is that I'm not a snob, it's just that I'm not a breeder. I know enough to know that I don't know anything about it.

I really appreciate Gregalabama's attitude and willingness to listen and I stand by my assertion that his dog is beautiful.


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## mfj (May 14, 2011)

blehmannwa said:


> My boy Havoc is a very fancy lad. His papers are impeccable and he is not yet neutered. An acquaintance also has a papered GSD female and has approached me about breeding them. I said that I have limited registration and she said that doesn't matter she just wants purebred puppies so we can share them with family and friends.
> 
> After I cleaned up the mess from my head exploding, I tried to explain that this kind of thinking is irresponsible and selfish. I know that some of Havoc's line are very reactive and this tendency has to be taken into account when looking at potential pedigree matches. Plus she claims that her pup's parents are both assistance dogs.( I guess that when the owner faints--they lick her back to consciousness. I don't know what would happen if they weren't there.) This woman thinks that I'm being very unreasonable for not wanting to breed my WGSL with her BYB. The fact is that I'm not a snob, it's just that I'm not a breeder. I know enough to know that I don't know anything about it.
> 
> I really appreciate Gregalabama's attitude and willingness to listen and I stand by my assertion that his dog is beautiful.


You have the correct mentality. Sorry to hear about your stubborn acquaintance. And I don't think ANYONE said that his dog wasn't beautiful. He certainly is a good looking GSD.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

blehmannwa..."After I cleaned up the mess from my head exploding,"

:spittingcoffee:

whoa, that's a great one, gotta remember that...it was close to "coffee comes out my nose" time!!!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

OP-your dog is beautiful. AKC papers do not mean much, all it says is that the dog is pure bred, not that the dog is a great dog. If you feel that your dog is great, do not let anyone diminish that simply because he doesn't have AKC papers. My dog has AKC papers, so before anyone starts their assumptions, I want to let that be known.

To breed or not to breed is your personal choice. What upsets me is for dogs with health issues or behavioral problems to be bred. I don't think having papers or not is of much importance. However, remember that there are many dogs in shelters that need a home, and to continue breeding dogs just will continue to add to these numbers. Unless you are willing to take back any puppy from a buyer who wants to return him, and you are willing to take care of any and all dogs that are returned to you or that you can't sell. Breeding is a big responsibility, I sure wouldn't want to involve myself in it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is a real problem with breeding a dog without papers. 

Several really. 

First of all, you do not have ANY evidence of who that dog really is. When you have eight un-registratable pure-bred puppies needing homes, you find out very quickly that you have the equivalent of mongrels. You cannot PROVE their ancestry, so you have pretty mutt puppies to 98 percent of the inquirers, the other 2% may know that they are purebred dogs, but have no desire to purchase a puppy without any type of registration. 

When faced with this, the unscrupulous breeder tries to add value to their dog by LYING about them. They will say, the pop is a police dog, but it is owned by the department and they are not allowed to allow anyone to breed to them, so I cannot tell you who the pop was, but he was a police dog. Yupp, everyone wants a police dog. They will buy them without papers, if you can be just a little convincing. 

The second problem with breeding non-papered dogs is since you have no idea as to the pedigree, you have no idea how closely inbred this dog is, or whether it shares close relations to the bitch in question. Without this information, you have no way of knowing what the sire and dam may carry genetically, and how likely the pups will be in presenting what is back there.

Another problem is that each of these puppies will go to people like yourself, people who are fascinated by the breed, and probably half or more than half would probably like to make puppies out of the pure-bred unregistered dog. You cannot sell them on a limited registration -- your people would probably breed them anyway, though it might stop some people. Still you cannot offer that. And, you cannot try to convince them NOT to breed their dogs, because YOU bred yours. Kind of hypocritical to say that their dog should not be bred, but your should be. Good breeder DO offer dogs on a limited registration many times, sometimes because the pup in question has a fault, sometimes because the people they sell the dog to has not indicated any desire to go through the process of breeding, and therefore will not have gone through all the preliminary self-teaching required to do the thing with knowledge and humanity. 

If you produce 8 puppies, and four of the owners of those 8 puppies choose to breed just one time, and they have an average of eight puppies each, that is 32 puppies, born and average of two years after they were whelped. Ok, that is 32 more owners who maybe half of them want to produce at least one litter, and an average of eight puppies will mean that about 4 years after your puppies are born, there are 128 unregistrateable puppies going out to homes that probably at least half of their owners will breed them just once. So how many people do you know who wants an unregistrateable purebred puppy? And just when are some of these 128 people going to hook up and breed unknowingly brother to sister? At some point, these puppy WILL land in shelters. At some point these puppies WILL be so inbred that the recessive genes will be coming out. 

Being registered by the SV or by the AKC or by the CKC -- Canadian Kennel Club, or the reputable KC of other countries should be the very first requirement in breeding. It does not mean that your dog is breed worthy, but it does mean that you can look at the history of the dog, and that is an absolute necessity when it comes to breeding. 

At the same time, I fully understand the owner's desire to breed their purebred GSD. Without papers, he is a pet, not breedworthy, sorry. But that does not mean you cannot use him to gain knowledge and experience with the breed, and network with other dog-people. 

But if down the line, you do want to become a good breeder of dogs, you do not want to start out by breeding a litter of pups that cannot be registered. People remember that. And it will be a black stain on you, with people that could otherwise really help you.

Lastly, breeding of unregistered dogs is plain unethical. Someone somewhere did not pay for papers for their dog or the bought the dog on a limited registration and bred it anyway. One of the foundation blocks of this dog is a lie, cheat, deceit of some sort. I do not hold it against the dog, he is beautiful, love him, get a PAL and do all kinds of stuff with him. Just do not compound the problem by breeding him.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

selzer said:


> If you produce 8 puppies, and four of the owners of those 8 puppies choose to breed just one time, and they have an average of eight puppies each, that is 32 puppies, born and average of two years after they were whelped. Ok, that is 32 more owners who maybe half of them want to produce at least one litter, and an average of eight puppies will mean that about 4 years after your puppies are born, there are 128 unregistrateable puppies going out to homes that probably at least half of their owners will breed them just once. So how many people do you know who wants an unregistrateable purebred puppy? And just when are some of these 128 people going to hook up and breed unknowingly brother to sister? At some point, these puppy WILL land in shelters. At some point these puppies WILL be so inbred that the recessive genes will be coming out.


:thumbup:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Why do people constantly come on these boards to complain that their dog is perfect but they can't register or breed b/c they didn't get papers? If that is SO important, why would someone purchase a dog without the proper registration? It's a lose-lose situation, b/c now we look like elitist snobs for simply stating the truth....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think people get a dog because they want a dog. When the dog fills out and looks good, and people come up to them and ASK them if they are going to breed the dog because they would want a puppy, I think then people start thinking about it. If they paid two to four hundred dollars for their dog, they may think, wow, if I have eight puppies, that will be over three thousand dollars, kool. 

Or they start thinking that they want a puppy out of their dog because he is so awesome and he will not live forever. They want for his genes to be carried on. 

I mean, what is there to it, really Got a dog, Got a bitch, Got a tie? Now we can make back our initial investment. 

And a lot of people think THE ONLY reason to get a dog with papers is in order to breed it.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

selzer said:


> And a lot of people think THE ONLY reason to get a dog with papers is in order to breed it.


So true!
And what is worst, to have a registered dog is reason enough to breed her/him.


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