# What's the diff between SDA and PSA?



## cledford (Apr 5, 2005)

I've got an adult showline male who was always strong in protection. We finally gotten a good diagnosis on a sport related injury and I'd like to return him to work, but want to skip the walls/a-frame. I'd also prefer to skip tracking with him. He was started in Austria with force so that is how he was finished. He does track, but I feel no need to keep it up with him. I've got a dedicated SchH dog so this is for fun. No need to pressure him. I know in SDA tracking is a seperate event. 

So, mainly I'm looking for a sport where I can simply do protection or OB on the flat with him. I'd like to know the differences between the 2 sports. Also, there is a PSA club starting up nearby. My main worry is dealing with a bnch of yahoos with out of control dogs who are too lazy or unable to train dogs for real and only want to do bitework for the excitement. My male is titled and I'm looking for something he can do and enjoy as his injury came from jumping. 

Thanks, 

Calvin


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Not very knowledgeable about PSA, but as far as SDA goes there would be very limited work in obedience/protection you could do that would not require jumps and a-frame. FO, PA and P1 would be it. Once you get past that, there's lots of jumping. The P2, P3, PD1 and PD2 all require the dog to go over an a-frame as well as 3 other jumps. Though the jumps are a bit lower than the SchH jump.

I don't think any area of life is completely devoid of the said "yahoos" but I've met dozens of SDA folks thus far from all over the country and haven't met a yahoo yet.... though that doesn't mean they don't exist somewhere.

As far as learning the difference between the two, looking up the websites of both and reading the rules would be the best place to start. Then of course visiting clubs in the area since there's only so much you can get a feel for just reading rules.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As far as tracking, if you want to give scent work a try while avoiding his tracking baggage, you may find the article search titles in SDA worthwhile. There are article search titles offered through the SchH organizations as well.


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## cledford (Apr 5, 2005)

You guys getting involved is helping dispell the yahoo fears







I've just gotten pretty particular about who I train with even in Schutzhund and don't want to deal with a bunch of people who are wackjobs. The occasional one is to be expected. Given some of the riff-raff I've come across recently in SchH I guess I'm a little worried about groups that focus only on the bitework. For this reason, I like that SDA requires OB with each title. 

Are the P1 & P2 equal to SchH1/2?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: cledford
> Are the P1 & P2 equal to SchH1/2?


Nope.

P2 is roughly equivalent to the SchH1 in terms of what is required in obedience and protection, and SDA considers it their breeding title (so sort of designed to be equivalent to SchH1).

PD1 would also be roughly equivalent to SchH1.

P1 is a more basic title and would fall short of SchH1 in terms of what's required of both dog and handler.

Lots of good info on SDA has been posted here in a couple recent threads about it. Good read that might help answer some questions.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Calvin,

Unlike SchH, SDA has adjustible jump heights based on the size of the dog, so as not to preclude dogs from participation based on their size. There may be a provision for lowering the jumps for dogs past a certain age, or with a documented injury that would make full height jumping unwise. Would be worth asking about.

SDA is a very new organization, and as such is still working on improving and clarifying many aspects. The SDA Powers That Be have a lot of hands-on involvement and are very approachable and willing to take feedback from the membership and those interested in getting involved with regards to ways to improve. So if such a provision doesn't exist, I'm sure they'd be willing to consider possibly making one.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I just heard today that the UKC is canceling all SDA after 2009.

http://members3.boardhost.com/dogsports/msg/1246377497.html


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Well, that's some disturbing news I hadn't heard.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Looking over the PSA website, psak9.org hard to tell if the organization is growing or contracting or if the site is just a bit stale.

But hard to tell a book by it's cover, or an organization from
it's website.

Visiting both would be a faster way to know if both are within reach.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I had heard a rumor to that effect but was hoping it was wrong. Ironically I had heard lack of growth was one of the main reasons.

I'm ignoring the situation for now and will wait and see what happens.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I knew there were some issues but didn't realize it was to the point of potentially losing UKC affiliation. Hopefully that doesn't happen. 

If it does, SDA has the membership and support structure to stand on it's own. But it would be unfortunate to not have UKC affiliation as it lent a legitimacy to SDA that hasn't existed with most other protection sports that have popped up (and then for the most part faded away) in recent years, as well as an avenue to expose the mainstream dog community to protection sports in a positive manner to help dispel the opinion that those involved in them represent nothing more than some bizarre, scary, fringe group.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Betty101 Ironically I had heard lack of growth was one of the main reasons.


Yes, very ironic. And with at least 6 new clubs currently in the making, 2 here in UKC's home state of Michigan.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Chris, I'm pm'ing you.


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild SDA considers it their breeding title


I keep hearing this on various messageboards, but there is no official position on this from either SDA or UKC - just FYI.

Dog Sport is Dog Sport - one thing people need to realize is that while dogs trained in other venues can certainly compete, *it is it's own sport*. None of it it meant to be equivalent to anything else.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yes, very important to point out that it is NOT an official SDA or UKC position about any titles being breedworthiness tests. They can be used for that, but it's not the main purpose and there's no official position of the organizations either way. 

That idea is coming from the SDA website, where under the overview/description of the titles it says:

"The P-2 and P-3 bridge the gap between Schutzhund and police dog training. 

All of the essential training exercises needed for developing a well-rounded obedient and protection-trained dog are included in these titles. Every exercise required was selected based on its criteria of being useful, practical, fun to train, necessary for testing, entertainment to watch and *identifying breeding stock*."

As opposed to the P1:
"The UKC/SDA P-1 is a protection title that specializes in training exercises that are essential for a family protection dog. 

The training exercises required for this title are perfect for introducing new people to protection training but difficult enough to interest the most experienced professional.

All of the training exercises have practical applications and teach the fundamentals for both obedience and protection training.

The P-1 provides dog owners a clear understanding of the skills a dog and handler needs in order to have a safe and dependable family protection dog. 


The P-1 is an excellent training title for providing dog- training demonstrations to the general public. The exercises are easy to understand and very entertaining to watch. This title also lays the foundation for the more advances protection titles. 

People may have their dog trained for this title by a professional trainer but elect to trial the dog themselves after taking a follow-up handlers course. This is an excellent way for new people to be introduced to protection training.

The P-1 is a routine that will help dog trainers gain membership to their club/training facility while the title will meet the protection needs of most dog owners desiring a family protection dog. This title offers fun, useful training exercises that are designed to meet the needs, interest and lifestyles of Americans and their dogs. "


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

OK, I sent an email to UKC asking what's up, if true, and if so, why?

Smells like more political correctness run amok, but I'll reserve judgement until I am told PETA beat them about the head and shoulders.

(Maybe moving Courage tourney to Sat @ Premier was not such a good idea?)


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

> Quote: Dear Dan,
> 
> Is it true that UKC is severing its ties with SDA as of December 31, 2009. UKC is always willing to give a new program a try, but unfortunately it has been well over 5 years now and the program hasn't shown growth or any signs of future growth.
> 
> ...


smells like official horned bovine to me!


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> That idea is coming from the SDA website, where under the overview/description of the titles it says:
> 
> ...


Chris, it's nice to see that you are reading the site!







There are references elsewhere about testing traits for breeding stock too - for other titles.









One thing I have always loved about the P1 is that it is on leash. Why? because if you want to do a protection title in this program you MUST be able to handle your dog on leash. No backties and e collars to make up for the fact that your dog may weigh more than you do, or be 5x as strong....If you can't manage a sudden lunge on leash, you won't get past the first level. So - yes, the intent is a family type title, _but even for a dog on the way to top titles_, you have to have some line handling skills. I see too many clubs in other sports that don't INSIST that everyone be able to hold their own dog while he is going "full force"

Christine


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: umzilla
> One thing I have always loved about the P1 is that it is on leash. Why? because if you want to do a protection title in this program you MUST be able to handle your dog on leash. No backties and e collars to make up for the fact that your dog may weigh more than you do, or be 5x as strong....If you can't manage a sudden lunge on leash, you won't get past the first level. So - yes, the intent is a family type title, _but even for a dog on the way to top titles_, you have to have some line handling skills. I see too many clubs in other sports that don't INSIST that everyone be able to hold their own dog while he is going "full force"
> 
> Christine


Agree 100%. It's something I thought was an excellent idea when I first learned about the P1.

Plus we had a lot of fun teasing the new handlers in our club when we started getting involved in SDA. "Ya know how we're always telling you to stand like a pole, and reminding you that poles don't move? SDA has a test for that!"


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

Yep! Also - the transition from heeling to lunging in the jump out attack - on leash - is VERY tricky... especially with a big powerful dog.









Christine


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Just got home from vacation and read this thread.....not happy.


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