# my buddies pitbull



## beowolf

a buddy of mine has acquired a shelter dog but when I tried to introduce it to my German Shepherd (9 months old) it got really aggressive, snarling and growling. It didn't go well so my dog and I left. I guess it's done the same thing with another dog and he wisely used a muzzle during that occasion.
The dog is less than a year old, still a pup, he seems very people friendly but I think it was sheltered because it was a dog fighter or something.

I'd like to try another meeting between the two dogs as long as the pitbull is muzzled. I certainly don't want my dog attacked and I don't want to be in the middle of a dog fight but given that these dogs are both less than a year old how serious can this pitbulls problem be? As I said he's really affectionate with people but so far he's met a few dogs and reacted aggressively...my dog just looked at him as if he had some mental problems or something...

any advice?? This dog has learned to live well with his cats at first he chased and chomped on one, but now he doesn't mind them at all. Will this dog ever be able to be around other dogs?


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## DCluver33

beowolf said:


> a buddy of mine has acquired a shelter dog but when I tried to introduce it to my German Shepherd (9 months old) it got really aggressive, snarling and growling. It didn't go well so my dog and I left. I guess it's done the same thing with another dog and he wisely used a muzzle during that occasion.
> The dog is less than a year old, still a pup, he seems very people friendly but I think it was sheltered because it was a dog fighter or something.
> 
> I'd like to try another meeting between the two dogs as long as the pitbull is muzzled. I certainly don't want my dog attacked and I don't want to be in the middle of a dog fight but given that these dogs are both less than a year old how serious can this pitbulls problem be? As I said he's really affectionate with people but so far he's met a few dogs and reacted aggressively...my dog just looked at him as if he had some mental problems or something...
> 
> any advice?? This dog has learned to live well with his cats at first he chased and chomped on one, but now he doesn't mind them at all. Will this dog ever be able to be around other dogs?


Pit Bulls are Dog Aggressive, it's in their genes. This is something that can't be "trained" out of them, but it can be managed IF you are willing to give it a shot. I'd start by telling your friend to check out this site: Pit Bull Chat: A Pet Pit Bull Community 
Some Pit Bulls can't be around other dogs, for your dogs safety and his dog's safety I wouldn't have them together. Period. I'd have him start NILIF with the Pit Immediately. 
If for some reason you do what to try to put them together (which I would advise not too) I'd invest in a break stick and learn how to use it properly


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## codmaster

Some pit bulls are DA - many are not and are very good around other dogs (there are a number of them in our obedience club and I trust a number of them around my GSD a lot more than a number of other breed dogs).

And i would guess that your dog can be trained to tolerate other dogs, but since he is already aggressive i suspect that it would take a pro to do it reliably.

BTW pits are no worse at DA than a lot of dogs - the problem is that they are so good at dog fighting! (the ones that are DA, that is)


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## DCluver33

codmaster said:


> Some pit bulls are DA - many are not and are very good around other dogs (there are a number of them in our obedience club and I trust a number of them around my GSD a lot more than a number of other breed dogs).
> 
> And i would guess that your dog can be trained to tolerate other dogs, but since he is already aggressive i suspect that it would take a pro to do it reliably.
> 
> *BTW pits are no worse at DA than a lot of dogs *- the problem is that they are so good at dog fighting! (the ones that are DA, that is)


you're right not all Pit Bulls are DA, BUT it is in their genes regardless, whether or not it shows up is another story (usually around two years of age) plus they are more prone to DA than other breeds.

the OP said his buddies Pit was DA not his GSD, but continued meeting that end up like the first one will make him (the GSD) aggressive if not fear aggressive.


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## codmaster

DCluver33 said:


> you're right not all Pit Bulls are DA, BUT it is in their genes regardless, whether or not it shows up is another story (usually around two years of age) plus they are more prone to DA than other breeds...


Just curious, what breed are you referring to as a "pit bull"? There are a number of breeds often referred to as pit bulls.

Are you saying that every individual in all of those different breed of dog has DA "in their genes"? Where did it come from such that every individual dog of each breed has it?

Would you happen to know why, if they have it in their genes, every individual dog in all of these breeds are not DA? 

From the little I know about pit bulls, some of the breeds included in that designation, have not been bred to fight for many many years, if in fact that breed has *ever* been bred for that. 

So you can see why I am curious as to the source of your information that "pit bulls" have it "in their genes" to be DA. 

I guess that the ones I know - both Bull Terriers and Staffordshire Terriers - must be genetic throwbacks, since all of them have been such dog friendly dogs.

They do have a very bad reputation as you are aware.


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## DCluver33

codmaster said:


> Just curious, what breed are you referring to as a "pit bull"? There are a number of breeds often referred to as pit bulls.
> 
> Are you saying that every individual in all of those different breed of dog has DA "in their genes"? Where did it come from such that every individual dog of each breed has it?
> 
> Would you happen to know why, if they have it in their genes, every individual dog in all of these breeds are not DA?
> 
> From the little I know about pit bulls, some of the breeds included in that designation, have not been bred to fight for many many years, if in fact that breed has *ever* been bred for that.
> 
> So you can see why I am curious as to the source of your information that "pit bulls" have it "in their genes" to be DA.
> 
> I guess that the ones I know - both Bull Terriers and Stafford shire Terriers - must be genetic throwbacks, since all of them have been such dog friendly dogs.
> 
> They do have a very bad reputation as you are aware.


all the "pit bull" breeds: the Amstaff (american bully), Stafford shire Terrier, Bull terrier, and especially the American Pit Bull Terrier (the one closest to the original Pit Bull) all have genes in them to fight, but the APBT is the one still bred closest to the dogs that were bred to fight, the other "pit bull" breeds are trying to get as far away from that as possible, but it still exists in some dogs. Out of the four or so "pit Bull" breeds the APBT is the one that you most likely find DA, even though they will all have it in their genes in some form or another, it's just a matter of it will show up or not. 

Not all "Pit Bulls" are DA of course, if they are properly trained, socialized, and in experienced hands. in the wrong hands they can be very dangerous just like GSD's aren't for everyone neither at "pit bulls" 

If you go to Pit Bull Chat: A Pet Pit Bull Community you will find tons of information from people who have owned the Pit Bull breed for many many years and have done thorough research on them.  go check it out it's a great site


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## valreegrl

DCluver33 said:


> Pit Bulls are Dog Aggressive, it's in their genes. This is something that can't be "trained" out of them, but it can be managed IF you are willing to give it a shot. I'd start by telling your friend to check out this site: Pit Bull Chat: A Pet Pit Bull Community
> Some Pit Bulls can't be around other dogs, for your dogs safety and his dog's safety I wouldn't have them together. Period. I'd have him start NILIF with the Pit Immediately.
> If for some reason you do what to try to put them together (which I would advise not too) I'd invest in a break stick and learn how to use it properly


LOL  And I don't mean that in a condescending way but in a stereotypical, media driven way. 

And since you are a GSD owner you should tread lightly in this area as GSDs were the "Pit Bulls" of the 80's......

"Pit Bull" is a social class not a breed, and encompasses upwards of 30 different actual breeds. So deeming the entire class DA is ludicrous. 

Now to give my opinion on the OP's question......
Deeming this dog DA on two introductions is inappropriate. How long has the dog been in his new environment? Has he properly settled in yet? How did you do the introduction? What exactly was the dogs' reaction, from both sides? Without a full picture one cannot accurately state that the "Pit Bull" is DA. Could possible just be reactive which is completely different than DA but misdiagnosed often. 

And IT IS possible to train DA dogs to become accepting of other dogs. It takes intensive behavior modification but it can be done, I have seen it done many times.

I would allow this dog to settle in his environment first. Get a good training foundation started and consult a trainer/behaviorist. 

And let's leave the mislabeling of breeds to the media. They do a good enough job without everyone jumping on the bandwagon


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## katieliz

dog aggression is not something that is "in the genes" of any breed.


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## sitstay

> dog aggression is not something that is "in the genes" of any breed.


I have been told by breed-type knowledgeable folks, and read in more than just sensationalistic media reports, that the types that make up the "Pit Bull breed" were actually breed to be animal aggressive. Those traits were encouraged in breeding practices, while also selecting for submissive attributes with people. They are supposed to be very "user friendly" dogs. Some "lines" are more gamey than others. Some dogs can be socialized early on and love other animals. Some dogs will never tolerate other animals, regardless of how well they are socialized. And some dogs tolerate other animals well until the hit early adulthood and then they decide that they really would rather not be tolerant at all anymore.

Bad Rap, the uber-reputable rescue in California, has some wonderful information on their web site that really addresses a lot of the misconceptions. Check them out at: Untitled Document 
Sheilah


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## DCluver33

gee thanks guys for making me feel like I don't know squat about pit bulls just because I own a GSD. I have friends that own pit bulls, I'm apart of a pit bull forum. I believe I said later that not all pit bulls are dog aggressive, but it is in their genes wether or not it shows up or not  go check out that site I posted and ask questions.


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## Elaine

beowolf said:


> The dog is less than a year old, still a pup, he seems very people friendly but I think it was sheltered because it was a dog fighter or something.
> 
> I'd like to try another meeting between the two dogs as long as the pitbull is muzzled. I certainly don't want my dog attacked and I don't want to be in the middle of a dog fight but given that these dogs are both less than a year old how serious can this pitbulls problem be?
> 
> any advice?? This dog has learned to live well with his cats at first he chased and chomped on one, but now he doesn't mind them at all. Will this dog ever be able to be around other dogs?


By no stretch of the imagination would I try and get my dog to get along with this dog. The first meeting went badly and you are questioning if the dog has been fought. 

If the dog has been fought, the chance of him ever being dog safe is slim to nill. Even if he hasn't, putting your dog in the position of a potentially bad experience with another dog, could ruin your dog's attitude towards other dogs. For some dogs, it only takes one bad experience and they are ruined for life.

It's your job to protect your dog and this is one of those times to protect him.


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## DCluver33

DCluver33 said:


> gee thanks guys for making me feel like I don't know squat about pit bulls just because I own a GSD. I have friends that own pit bulls, I'm apart of a pit bull forum. I believe I said later that not all pit bulls are dog aggressive, but it is in their genes wether or not it shows up or not  go check out that site I posted and ask questions.


I am by no means an expert in any breed.


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## rvadog

katieliz said:


> dog aggression is not something that is "in the genes" of any breed.


You have know idea what you are talking about. 

Would you agree that different breeds have different personality traits even though they may have been raised the same? 

Ok so now we agree that personality and behaviors can be similar within a breed and therefore must be genetic.

Would you agree that certain lines of terrier are very bad with cats and certain lines of GSD's are not great with strangers?

So now we've established different types of aggression is heritable.

Ok so why is it a leap that American Pit Bull Terriers, a breed created and designed to fight other dogs might have a greater chance of inheriting genetic DA than a Golden Retriever?

Dog's bred to fight other dogs (even if its removed a few generations) are genetically predisposed to be DA. Doesn't mean it's automatic just means it's much more likely.


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## valreegrl

rvadog said:


> You have know idea what you are talking about.
> 
> Would you agree that different breeds have different personality traits even though they may have been raised the same?
> 
> Ok so now we agree that personality and behaviors can be similar within a breed and therefore must be genetic.
> 
> Would you agree that certain lines of terrier are very bad with cats and certain lines of GSD's are not great with strangers?
> 
> So now we've established different types of aggression is heritable.
> 
> Ok so why is it a leap that American Pit Bull Terriers, a breed created and designed to fight other dogs might have a greater chance of inheriting genetic DA than a Golden Retriever?
> 
> Dog's bred to fight other dogs (even if its removed a few generations) are genetically predisposed to be DA. Doesn't mean it's automatic just means it's much more likely.


Of course genetics plays a roll in dogs' personalities, and having a predisposition to DA is possible. However, DA is a learned behavior and I would hope as a trainer you would pass that knowledge on.


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## rvadog

That's absolutely not true.

DA *can* a learned behavior. I promise that know one had to teach the best pit dogs to hate other dogs. They come out of the womb with aggression.


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## Konotashi

Pit bull _is_ a breed. It's short for American Pit Bull Terrier, just as Am Staff is short for American Staffordshire terrier. People just 'misidentify' dogs such as the American bulldog and staffies and such as pit bulls, so it's pretty much been accepted that they're also pit bulls, but they're NOT.

And dog aggression is a genetic trait, as well as environmental. Yes, some breeds are more prone to dog aggression than others. In nurture vs. nature, neither can completely void the other one. *Each* plays a vital role in the personality of an animal, and in humans. I hope that makes sense.


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## chicagojosh

Cody and my buddies Pitbull pup (4-5 months) get along just fine...He also got along well with a pitbull / black lab Mix

I wouldn't label the whole breed as dog aggressive, that's for sure


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## rvadog

chicagojosh said:


> I wouldn't label the whole breed as dog aggressive, that's for sure


First off the dog is 4-5months old. I know of many a dog that turned "on" at 18 months (to people or dogs).

Second no one is accusing the whole breed of being aggressive. My point is to ignore that your dog is genetically predisposed to DA is like getting a GSD because you like Rin Tin Tin and then never socializing and ignoring that GSD's *can *be predisposed to being snotty with strangers.


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## chicagojosh

RVA dog are you serious????,

1st off (haha) YOU said "they come out of the womb aggressive" how on gods green earth are you NOT accusing the breed of being aggressive? read your own dang post!

if you want to be scerrred of pits go fot it. I know some nice one's and one's that are older than 4-5 months as well. I've also known DA pits. SO...like I said you can't label the whole breed DA.


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## LaRen616

I know 10 pitbulls personally and all 10 of them are NOT DA.

But I have heard stories and seen a couple of DA Pits as well.

But I do not believe the whole breed is DA.


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## DJEtzel

I personally wouldn't try to get your dogs together again if the dog acted this way. He may or may not be dog aggressive, but the possibility is obviously there and I wouldn't put my dog in that position, even if the other dog were muzzled. That's not fair to the other dog, and if he has to be muzzled to be around yours, what's the point?

American Pit Bull Terriers and the like included in the term "pit bull" have mostly originated from dogs that were bred to be aggressive towards other dogs. SOME Pits get these genes, some don't. Some have had the genes bred out of them which is great. Those that DO have the gene, were born aggressive. This doesn't mean that they're aggressive as puppies, but they always have the gene and nothing you can do (socialization/training) will stop them from becoming DA upon maturity. I know TONS of Pit Bulls, some of which grew up to be great with other dogs, some of which were NEVER good with other dogs (even from 8 weeks) and some that were great with other dogs until 1-2 years and then became Dog Aggressive. There's no way to tell in a puppy how it will turn out.


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## valreegrl

rvadog said:


> That's absolutely not true.
> 
> DA *can* a learned behavior. I promise that know one had to teach the best pit dogs to hate other dogs. They come out of the womb with aggression.


You are nuts! 
And your comments are exactly the reason why "Pit Bulls" are being executed each and every day by tens of thousands. And another reason why we have such a high perpetuation for dog fighting in our communities. 

I invite you to audit the HSUS newly integrated "Pit Bull" Awareness with curriculum disproving your theory. DA is environmental period.


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## chicagojosh

valreegrl said:


> You are nuts!
> And your comments are exactly the reason why "Pit Bulls" are being executed each and every day by tens of thousands. And another reason why we have such a high perpetuation for dog fighting in our communities.
> 
> I invite you to audit the HSUS newly integrated "Pit Bull" Awareness with curriculum disproving your theory. DA is environmental period.


:thumbup:


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## LaRen616

valreegrl said:


> You are nuts!
> And your comments are exactly the reason why "Pit Bulls" are being executed each and every day by tens of thousands. And another reason why we have such a high perpetuation for dog fighting in our communities.
> 
> I invite you to audit the HSUS newly integrated "Pit Bull" Awareness with curriculum disproving your theory. DA is environmental period.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> DA is environmental period.


Can you elaborate by what you mean, exactly?


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## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> Can you elaborate by what you mean, exactly?


I mean that DA is learned/environmental. Dogs, no matter what breed, do not "come out of the womb" aggressive. I don't care if it's a "Pit Bull", GSD or Poodle for that matter. 

Of course with long lines of "fighting dogs" there could be a predisposition for aggression but without nurture of that trait it would be nonexistent. 
Environment is a huge contributing factor to aggression, especially if the dog is predisposed genetically.


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## codmaster

Konotashi said:


> Pit bull _is_ a breed. It's short for American Pit Bull Terrier, just as Am Staff is short for American Staffordshire terrier. People just 'misidentify' dogs such as the American bulldog and staffies and such as pit bulls, so it's pretty much been accepted that they're also pit bulls, but they're NOT.
> 
> And dog aggression is a genetic trait, as well as environmental. Yes, some breeds are more prone to dog aggression than others. In nurture vs. nature, neither can completely void the other one. *Each* plays a vital role in the personality of an animal, and in humans. I hope that makes sense.


 
If you believe that DA is a genetic trait in "pit bulls" then you must also agree that a lack of "people aggression" is equally genetic in them since the fighting dogs cannot have any people aggression as there are people in the pit with them as they fight and any dog showing ANY PA would be destroyed and never allowed to breed. Following along that line, why are there so many cases of "pit bulls" savagely attacking people? Doesn't seem likely given their genetics, does it?

Could every PB who attacks people either be highly trained to overcome their lack of PA or maybe just a genetic throwback (exception to their genes)?

BTW, do you think pit bulls are genetically more DA than GSD's? Akita's? Or how about more DA than almost any other Terrier?


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## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> I mean that DA is learned/environmental. Dogs, no matter what breed, do not "come out of the womb" aggressive. I don't care if it's a "Pit Bull", GSD or Poodle for that matter.
> 
> Of course with long lines of "fighting dogs" there could be a predisposition for aggression but without nurture of that trait it would be nonexistent.
> Environment is a huge contributing factor to aggression, especially if the dog is predisposed genetically.


You're absolutely wrong. Pit bulls were BRED to be Dog Aggressive. It is a genetic trait that some dogs get. Many dogs come out of the womb aggressive so to speak and no amount of socialization or training will change them from maturing into a dog aggressive dog. There are very few other breeds if any that were bred to be aggressive and would come out of the womb DA. THOSE are cases of environmental, learned aggression.


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## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> If you believe that DA is a genetic trait in "pit bulls" then you must also agree that a lack of "people aggression" is equally genetic in them since the fighting dogs cannot have any people aggression as there are people in the pit with them as they fight and any dog showing ANY PA would be destroyed and never allowed to breed. Following along that line, why are there so many cases of "pit bulls" savagely attacking people? Doesn't seem likely given their genetics, does it?
> 
> Could every PB who attacks people either be highly trained to overcome their lack of PA or maybe just a genetic throwback (exception to their genes)?
> 
> BTW, do you think pit bulls are genetically more DA than GSD's? Akita's? Or how about more DA than almost any other Terrier?


MOST pit bulls that attack people are not human aggressive. They are a result of unknowledgable owners leaving children with dogs or teasing/taunting dogs, or ignoring/not understanding warning signs. I can almost guarantee you there are more yorkies attacking people than there are Pit Bulls in the united states every year, they just aren't reported because yorkies can't do the damage a pit bull can. The difference between any other attack and a pit attack is that a pit won't stop once it starts and has jaws that can inflict a LOT of damage.


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## hunterisgreat

Pits were/are bred for dog fighting. The best fighters (they have to be DA to fight) are bred again. Process repeats. Those lines become more dog aggressive. That is the basic premise of selective breeding. DA can be a learned behavior, but it ABSOLUTELY is also a hereditary predisposition. A good friend has 2 pits. One comes and plays with my dogs. The other is highly DA. He raised both. How do you explain that? I have 2 dogs. One is DA sometimes. The other is absolutely not DA. I've had both since 9 weeks and raised them using the exact same formula with training tailored to their unique personalities. How do you explain that?

There are pitbull kennels focused on reversing the DA. They certainly believe it is genetic. 

Why do APBT's handlers always get so touchy and unwilling to admit that APBT's are in fact, a product of a history breeding for dog fighting? Of course they are lovable to a loving handler... they were never breed to be people aggressive. Infact many fighters use other breeds to guard their prize dogs, who would otherwise willingly follow a thief out the door. Anecdotal accounts of a friends pit that is sweet and nice doesn't reverse decades of selective breeding.


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## DJEtzel

hunterisgreat said:


> Why do APBT's always get so touchy and unwilling to admit that APBT's are in fact, a product of a history breeding for dog fighting? Of course they are lovable to a loving handler... they were never breed to be people aggressive. Infact many fighters use other breeds to guard their prize dogs, who would otherwise willingly follow a thief out the door. Anecdotal accounts of a friends pit that is sweet and nice doesn't reverse decades of selective breeding.


Did you mean why do APBT OWNERS get so touchy? 

Because IME most that are TRUE, GOOD pit bull owners go out of their way to let people know about the possibilities of the breed, what they were bred for, and what they're capable of to ensure that no pit bull ends up in the wrong hands. Maybe these are just the owners I know though, and myself. I certainly wouldn't recommend someone with other dogs or a newbie to dogs/training to adopt a pit bull breeder from anything other than a reputable breeder because of the potential for that dog. Heck, _I _won't adopt a pit bull puppy as much as I love and admire the breed because _I _can't handle the thought that he may grow up to be DA and have to manage that at this time in my life.


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## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> You're absolutely wrong. Pit bulls were BRED to be Dog Aggressive. It is a genetic trait that some dogs get. Many dogs come out of the womb aggressive so to speak and no amount of socialization or training will change them from maturing into a dog aggressive dog. There are very few other breeds if any that were bred to be aggressive and would come out of the womb DA. THOSE are cases of environmental, learned aggression.


To be honest, APBT were BRED to be ANIMAL aggressive (ex: bear hunters) and only in recent times with the onslaught of dog fighting did that materialize into DA. 

I am a FIRM believer that DA is environmental well above genetics. The two studies stated where two dogs were raised in the same environment/and or from same age and one is DA and the other is not is definitely not sufficient for an argument without the EXACT environment controlled which could never happen. 

"....no amount of socialization or training will change them from maturing into a dog aggressive dog" THIS is what is false. If this statement were true then you must believe that DA cannot be trained out of dogs, which is untrue. I have been a part of and witnessed many many DA dogs that can and do co-exist with other dogs happily. Behavior modification has come a long way 

FYI: Although "Pit Bulls" do have a high bite pressure they do not cause any more damage than another similar dog of that pressure. Their jaws DO NOT lock which is another misconception.


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## chicagojosh

based on the logic that a pitbull puppy who's parents fought will come out of the womb DA... then wouldn't a GSD puppy who's parents are Sch trained...come out of the womb attack peoples arms? LOL

a puppy to agility parents comes out the womb over jumps and through tunnels?

a puppy from a SAR dog comes out of the womb searching for dead body's?

the dock diving puppy...comes out the womb and makes a mad dash to a lake? 

I don't buy it...maybe I'm naive, but INDIVIDUAL dogs have INDIVIDUAL personalities. I'm not totally denying a genetic influence, but some of these posts seem pretty far fetched


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## valreegrl

We could go back and forth about this forever so sometimes its just better to disagree. And no hard feelings whatsoever, it's can be very touchy subject. 

I just invite you to watch the upcoming Pit Bull awareness video called "Beyond the Myth". It sites many many studies for both sides allowing people to make an educated decision.


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## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> To be honest, APBT were BRED to be ANIMAL aggressive (ex: bear hunters) and only in recent times with the onslaught of dog fighting did that materialize into DA.
> 
> I am a FIRM believer that DA is environmental well above genetics. The two studies stated where two dogs were raised in the same environment/and or from same age and one is DA and the other is not is definitely not sufficient for an argument without the EXACT environment controlled which could never happen.
> 
> "....no amount of socialization or training will change them from maturing into a dog aggressive dog" THIS is what is false. If this statement were true then you must believe that DA cannot be trained out of dogs, which is untrue. I have been a part of and witnessed many many DA dogs that can and do co-exist with other dogs happily. Behavior modification has come a long way
> 
> FYI: Although "Pit Bulls" do have a high bite pressure they do not cause any more damage than another similar dog of that pressure. Their jaws DO NOT lock which is another misconception.


Genetic aggression cannot be trained out of a dog. Whether it be towards people or animals. It can be managed well within reason, but cannot be changed. 

If a dog is Dog Aggressive because of environmental/nurturing circumstances, YES, it can be a modified behavior, but NOT genetics. 

I know that Pit bull do not lock their jaws, but because of their jaw style they DO cause more damage. They bite all the way through, shake, and eventually re-grip to do the same. They don't snap a bite and then stop. 

BTW, have you read the dog attack fatalities report from 2010? While their were many pit bull attacks on the list, there were also TONS of huskies, and I believe somewhere around 90% of the victims were less than 9. Hmmm, maybe that's saying something.


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## hunterisgreat

DJEtzel said:


> Did you mean why do APBT OWNERS get so touchy?
> 
> Because IME most that are TRUE, GOOD pit bull owners go out of their way to let people know about the possibilities of the breed, what they were bred for, and what they're capable of to ensure that no pit bull ends up in the wrong hands. Maybe these are just the owners I know though, and myself. I certainly wouldn't recommend someone with other dogs or a newbie to dogs/training to adopt a pit bull breeder from anything other than a reputable breeder because of the potential for that dog. Heck, _I _won't adopt a pit bull puppy as much as I love and admire the breed because _I _can't handle the thought that he may grow up to be DA and have to manage that at this time in my life.


I can understand the ones that are true advocates of the breed and responsible.. but there is a difference between showing what a APBT CAN be or accomplish, and flat out denying that they tend to be DA... the worst being when a naive handler convinces themselves their dog is no more DA than anything else. Denying a simple truth is dangerous for everyone involved, and ultimately leads to more restrictions of the breed they seek to protect. 

I'm fine with people having them so long as they acknowledge what they are getting, the possibilities the dog my be predisposed for, know how the dog *may* react when it sees another dog run or a dog fight start, and take appropriate measures. I'm ok with someone having a highly people aggressive dog so long as they take the measures to protect people from that too. My dogs have pretty high civil drive (male particularly). I take measures to make sure it is never a problem. I expect all dog owners of any breed to do the same.


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## chicagojosh

the whole statement that DA can't be untrained is completely wrong. my trainer has trained many, many, many DA dogs into nice friendly dogs. seen it 1st hand, heard testimonials from others in my OB class.


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## DJEtzel

chicagojosh said:


> based on the logic that a pitbull puppy who's parents fought will come out of the womb DA... then wouldn't a GSD puppy who's parents are Sch trained...come out of the womb attack peoples arms? LOL
> 
> a puppy to agility parents comes out the womb over jumps and through tunnels?
> 
> a puppy from a SAR dog comes out of the womb searching for dead body's?
> 
> the dock diving puppy...comes out the womb and makes a mad dash to a lake?
> 
> I don't buy it...maybe I'm naive, but INDIVIDUAL dogs have INDIVIDUAL personalities. I'm not totally denying a genetic influence, but some of these posts seem pretty far fetched


All of these things you listed are trained to the specific dog. It is like comparing apples and oranges. People bred the pit bulls that would kill other dogs the fastest and the most brutally. They culled the nice ones, so they bred for genetically aggressive dogs that did so on their own accord. If you found a dog that naturally ran and agility course with enough ease to qualify and bred it to another like individual, enough times through the generations you would have puppies coming out of the womb with the natural tendency to do so.


----------



## hunterisgreat

valreegrl said:


> To be honest, APBT were BRED to be ANIMAL aggressive (ex: bear hunters) and only in recent times with the onslaught of dog fighting did that materialize into DA.
> 
> I am a FIRM believer that DA is environmental well above genetics. The two studies stated where two dogs were raised in the same environment/and or from same age and one is DA and the other is not is definitely not sufficient for an argument without the EXACT environment controlled which could never happen.
> 
> "....no amount of socialization or training will change them from maturing into a dog aggressive dog" THIS is what is false. If this statement were true then you must believe that DA cannot be trained out of dogs, which is untrue. I have been a part of and witnessed many many DA dogs that can and do co-exist with other dogs happily. Behavior modification has come a long way
> 
> FYI: Although "Pit Bulls" do have a high bite pressure they do not cause any more damage than another similar dog of that pressure. Their jaws DO NOT lock which is another misconception.


ABPT were never bred for hunting. They were bred for BAITING, which is totally different than hunting. Its pit fighting with a different species.


----------



## DJEtzel

chicagojosh said:


> the whole statement that DA can't be untrained is completely wrong. my trainer has trained many, many, many DA dogs into nice friendly dogs. seen it 1st hand, heard testimonials from others in my OB class.


Once again, this depends on the reason for a dog's dog aggression. If it was raised to be DA/not socialized (environmental) then YES, it can be changed, which is what your trainer is doing. If those dogs were genetically bred to be aggressive towards dogs though, you would not be able to train it out of them, only manage it.


----------



## hunterisgreat

DJEtzel said:


> Genetic aggression cannot be trained out of a dog. Whether it be towards people or animals. It can be managed well within reason, but cannot be changed.
> 
> If a dog is Dog Aggressive because of environmental/nurturing circumstances, YES, it can be a modified behavior, but NOT genetics.
> 
> I know that Pit bull do not lock their jaws, but because of their jaw style they DO cause more damage. They bite all the way through, shake, and eventually re-grip to do the same. They don't snap a bite and then stop.
> 
> BTW, have you read the dog attack fatalities report from 2010? While their were many pit bull attacks on the list, there were also TONS of huskies, and I believe somewhere around 90% of the victims were less than 9. Hmmm, maybe that's saying something.


Its purely the tendency to shake that makes them more damaging. We have been having a professional trainer & club member working a pit at our schutzhund club as a PPD for a client. What makes him hard to do much bitework with is not his bite force, it is his thrashing, which hurts. The point of a GSD bite is to subdue/control someone, not inflict maximum damage. Thats why they do not thrash


----------



## chicagojosh

how is it apples to oranges? i'm just using different breeds, and different things they were trained to do...

people breed the best SCH dogs too. so again... is the SCH pup coming out looking for the closest arm to bite? if you ask me NO. that pup still needs to be trained to bite the sleeve...

the SAR pup still needs his handler to train him to search... he doesn't out of the womb or months later realize he should be off looking for a corpse...

even just look at simple things "all" dogs are trained to do like "sit". every dog on the planet know's "sit" so over and over and over again people have bred dogs that were trained to "sit". YET, when a puppy is born, us human's need to teach him that command...


----------



## chicagojosh

DJEtzel said:


> Once again, this depends on the reason for a dog's dog aggression. If it was raised to be DA/not socialized (environmental) then YES, it can be changed, which is what your trainer is doing. If those dogs were genetically bred to be aggressive towards dogs though, you would not be able to train it out of them, only manage it.


 
Scout is a pitbull that is in my OB class. Scout was rescued from a place that was fighting pits. Scout has made HUGE improvments. he was in fact in a down/stay next to Cody for 2-3 minutes. he's not perfect yet, but is well on his way...

I'll never agree a dog comes out of the womb doing anything besides being a puppy. I've seen far too many examples that prove otherwise


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> based on the logic that a pitbull puppy who's parents fought will come out of the womb DA... then wouldn't a GSD puppy who's parents are Sch trained...come out of the womb attack peoples arms? LOL
> 
> a puppy to agility parents comes out the womb over jumps and through tunnels?
> 
> a puppy from a SAR dog comes out of the womb searching for dead body's?
> 
> the dock diving puppy...comes out the womb and makes a mad dash to a lake?
> 
> I don't buy it...maybe I'm naive, but INDIVIDUAL dogs have INDIVIDUAL personalities. I'm not totally denying a genetic influence, but some of these posts seem pretty far fetched


Most of those are very much trained things that have nothing to do with what the dog wants to do. They all have to have certain drives to do any of the above work though. A SAR dog must have good hunt drive to succeed. Any complex training requires food or prey drive (otherwise your only option to motivate the dog is compulsion and that produces poor results). Schutzhund dogs in prey drive when they bite that sleeve, so the first comparison is not accurate. A dog that is attacking helpers because he is trying to kill them, is a dog that will be removed from Schutzhund training. Many top scoring schutzhund dogs have very little or no civil aggression and consequently won't be an effective PPD. A PPD must have good civil aggression towards people to be effective. Dog fighting requires dogs with high civil aggression towards dogs. Even out of a SchH3 x SchH3 breeding, its extremely rare to have all SchH3 quality puppies.


----------



## hunterisgreat

DJEtzel said:


> Once again, this depends on the reason for a dog's dog aggression. If it was raised to be DA/not socialized (environmental) then YES, it can be changed, which is what your trainer is doing. If those dogs were genetically bred to be aggressive towards dogs though, you would not be able to train it out of them, only manage it.


I'd have said fear based DA is fixable. Gene based DA is not. It can only be managed. If you want a DA APBT attack another dog at a dog park, you can literally see the switch come on and the dog is totally acting on a primal drive bred into him.


----------



## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> Once again, this depends on the reason for a dog's dog aggression. If it was raised to be DA/not socialized (environmental) then YES, it can be changed, which is what your trainer is doing. If those dogs were genetically bred to be aggressive towards dogs though, you would not be able to train it out of them, only manage it.


Case study..."Pit Bull" ceased from a dog fighting ring in Trenton, large breeding program. Particular male was chained WITHIN reach for the first year of his life (from puppy) of another "Pit Bull". They fought every day but with limited injuries and their chains were JUST within reach of each other. This particular dog was not only predisposed to DA genetically but environmentally as well.

Said dog was confiscated by authorities and remanded to shelter during trial for another year where he cage fought every day until moved to solitary area. 

After trial dog is pulled into behavior mod program receiving EXTENSIVE treatment for 2 years. 

Today, dog is in rescue living 24/7 with a female APBT while receiving supervised play/socialization with a small pack. 

This is just one case in point.


----------



## rvadog

chicagojosh said:


> how is it apples to oranges? i'm just using different breeds, and different things they were trained to do...
> 
> people breed the best SCH dogs too. so again... is the SCH pup coming out looking for the closest arm to bite? if you ask me NO. that pup still needs to be trained to bite the sleeve...


How many Schutzhund dogs have you worked or trained? You honestly don't think top level schutzhund dogs are actively looking for something to bite and hold in their mouth at 6 weeks?

Your posts in this thread tell me you know nothing about how dogs mature, genetics and inherited traits.


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> how is it apples to oranges? i'm just using different breeds, and different things they were trained to do...
> 
> people breed the best SCH dogs too. so again... is the SCH pup coming out looking for the closest arm to bite? if you ask me NO. that pup still needs to be trained to bite the sleeve...
> 
> the SAR pup still needs his handler to train him to search... he doesn't out of the womb or months later realize he should be off looking for a corpse...
> 
> even just look at simple things "all" dogs are trained to do like "sit". every dog on the planet know's "sit" so over and over and over again people have bred dogs that were trained to "sit". YET, when a puppy is born, us human's need to teach him that command...


Sitting isn't a drive-backed behaviour. Searching is (hunt drive). SchH biting is (prey, defense). PPD biting is (defense, civil aggression towards humans). Dog fight biting is (civil agression towards dogs, prey, defense)

If a given dog doesn't possess the drives for a given type of training, he won't do well in that.


----------



## rvadog

valreegrl said:


> Today, dog is in rescue living 24/7 with a female APBT while receiving supervised play/socialization with a small pack.
> 
> This is just one case in point.


I think I would argue that the above dog probably received excellent training and the above statement is an excellent example of good management. This dog could very easily slip back in to DA with poor management.


----------



## DJEtzel

chicagojosh said:


> how is it apples to oranges? i'm just using different breeds, and different things they were trained to do...
> 
> people breed the best SCH dogs too. so again... is the SCH pup coming out looking for the closest arm to bite? if you ask me NO. that pup still needs to be trained to bite the sleeve...
> 
> the SAR pup still needs his handler to train him to search... he doesn't out of the womb or months later realize he should be off looking for a corpse...
> 
> even just look at simple things "all" dogs are trained to do like "sit". every dog on the planet know's "sit" so over and over and over again people have bred dogs that were trained to "sit". YET, when a puppy is born, us human's need to teach him that command...


It's apples to oranges because all of these things were TAUGHT to dogs. Dog aggression for fighting was not TAUGHT it was just selectively bred. If the dog didn't want to fight it was killed. If it fought well they bred it and the offspring that fought well were bred as well. They never had to train any of this.



chicagojosh said:


> Scout is a pitbull that is in my OB class. Scout was rescued from a place that was fighting pits. Scout has made HUGE improvments. he was in fact in a down/stay next to Cody for 2-3 minutes. he's not perfect yet, but is well on his way...
> 
> I'll never agree a dog comes out of the womb doing anything besides being a puppy. I've seen far too many examples that prove otherwise


Well, all of my experiences, knowledge, and research on the preed proves otherwise. You don't have to believe it, but it is obvious that you don't have a lot of knowledge or experiences on the breed, either. 

Also, what is the point of your anecdote about Scout? Many genetically predispositioned DA dogs, and environmentally DA dogs can be trained to leave dogs alone in close proximity, but when allowed to meet, they will not simply ignore the dog and will still attack. I have trained DOZENS of DA dogs against lunging, growling, trying to attack dogs that were walking by, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't attack giving the opportunity.


----------



## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> Case study..."Pit Bull" ceased from a dog fighting ring in Trenton, large breeding program. Particular male was chained WITHIN reach for the first year of his life (from puppy) of another "Pit Bull". They fought every day but with limited injuries and their chains were JUST within reach of each other. This particular dog was not only predisposed to DA genetically but environmentally as well.
> 
> Said dog was confiscated by authorities and remanded to shelter during trial for another year where he cage fought every day until moved to solitary area.
> 
> After trial dog is pulled into behavior mod program receiving EXTENSIVE treatment for 2 years.
> 
> Today, dog is in rescue living 24/7 with a female APBT while receiving supervised play/socialization with a small pack.
> 
> This is just one case in point.





rvadog said:


> I think I would argue that the above dog probably received excellent training and the above statement is an excellent example of good management. This dog could very easily slip back in to DA with poor management.


What is to say that this dog DID recieve DA in his genetics? There is no way to tell this, which is why anecdotal evidence is thrown out the window. This dog may very well have become aggressive because he had the opportunity to fight with another male as he was maturing and had no training. 

OR, once again, it is all about management.


----------



## valreegrl

rvadog said:


> I think I would argue that the above dog probably received excellent training and the above statement is an excellent example of good management. This dog could very easily slip back in to DA with poor management.



Agree. But where do we draw the line? 
Do we call a DA dog DA for life and behavior mod useless in these situations?


----------



## chicagojosh

hunterisgreat said:


> Sitting isn't a drive-backed behaviour. Searching is (hunt drive). SchH biting is (prey, defense). PPD biting is (defense, civil aggression towards humans). Dog fight biting is (civil agression towards dogs, prey, defense)
> 
> If a given dog doesn't possess the drives for a given type of training, he won't do well in that.


 
OK... well im not saying a dog with a great SCH pedigree shouldn't do better at SCH than a non SCH dog IF THEY BOTH ARE TRAINED IN SCH. but is he coming out of the womb ready to bite sleeves...certainly not. I know dogs that came from SCH parents that "don't have the drive" to do SCH....explain that one?

dogs are individuals


----------



## gsdraven

valreegrl said:


> Case study..."Pit Bull" ceased from a dog fighting ring in Trenton, large breeding program. Particular male was chained WITHIN reach for the first year of his life (from puppy) of another "Pit Bull". They fought every day but with limited injuries and their chains were JUST within reach of each other. This particular dog was not only predisposed to DA genetically but environmentally as well.
> 
> Said dog was confiscated by authorities and remanded to shelter during trial for another year where he cage fought every day until moved to solitary area.
> 
> After trial dog is pulled into behavior mod program receiving EXTENSIVE treatment for 2 years.
> 
> Today, dog is in rescue living 24/7 with a female APBT while receiving supervised play/socialization with a small pack.
> 
> This is just one case in point.


Is this dog left alone with the female? Or is he always supervised when with other dogs?


----------



## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> What is to say that this dog DID recieve DA in his genetics? There is no way to tell this, which is why anecdotal evidence is thrown out the window. This dog may very well have become aggressive because he had the opportunity to fight with another male as he was maturing and had no training.
> 
> OR, once again, it is all about management.


Many many questions and no way to answer  

My opinion and your opinion are just that. We can both site research to the contrary and may never know/have a solution. But it makes life interesting and people to strive for a better dog world. 

But I will strive to find an answer for the dogs


----------



## DJEtzel

chicagojosh said:


> dogs are individuals


Exactly, some dogs DON'T inherit genes from their parents that their parents had been bred for. 

I know dogs that have come from fighting rings. Two litters were recently brought into my shelter after being confiscated. Two moms- neither dog aggressive. One litter had puppies that as puppies were perfectly fine with other puppies/dogs. The other litter had puppies that were coming close to killing each other at less than 8 weeks. We had to seperate the entire litter because they were causing deep puncture wounds on each other and getting sick as a result of infection from so many bites in such a small amount of time. These puppies I have no doubt got someone's genes that made them DA. Whether that be a gene from their father or a recessive from their mother, I don't know. It is apparent that these dogs were not raised for a mere 7 weeks to be outright vicious though.


----------



## valreegrl

gsdraven said:


> Is this dog left alone with the female? Or is he always supervised when with other dogs?


Both. The female he lives with in a very large inside/outside run. The pack work is supervised.


----------



## sitstay

*From www.realpitbull.com*

*Not A Breed For 
Everyone
**(And no breed is!)
* Studying breed trends over the course of the 20th century, there is a clear 
pattern that shows popularity for any breed is extremely detrimental. 
Popularity manifests itself in a variety of problematic ways: over-breeding 
without regard to health or temperament; dogs sold to whoever forks 
over the money regardless of their suitability as owners; and lots of 
people without a real understanding of their breed of choice creating 
problem dogs that generate a negative effect that spills over to the public 
(by way of attacks); and lots of dogs ending up in shelters.

Popularity for Pit Bulls has been and will continue to be disastrous. A 
breed that should only be in the hands of but a few is now in the ends of, 
well, everyone. Many people who make decent dog owners make really 
bad Pit Bull owners. And there are lots of decent dog owners out there.

But just because not everyone should own a Pit Bull doesn’t mean no one 
should. This is a strong point that can be validated many ways, but two 
extremes that do not necessarily agree with this point are waging war 
right now and a win on either side will mean a loss for the American Pit 
Bull Terrier breed.

There are two ends of a broad spectrum: both are extreme, and both 
could ultimately spell disaster for the breed. One end believes no one 
should own Pit Bulls and the world would be a better place without them. 
This camp is working to destroy the breed through fear tactics, half truths, 
and lies. The other end of the spectrum believes Pit Bulls potentially 
belong in any dog-loving home, and can and should be in the public eye 
represented as the perfect breed of dog for lots and lots of people. This 
latter line of thinking seems to permeate large segments of the pro Pit Bull 
faction lately. This is a huge concern, as well-meaning people push the 
breed into the spotlight, declaring them, "the same as any other dog", 
and the perfect play pal for kids, teens, dogs, cats, horses, hamsters, 
whatever.

One tell tale sign of this latter segment - let’s call them the Pollyanna Pit 
Bull Brigade - is their pushing of the notion that Pit Bulls are the same as 
all other breeds, no more and no less prone to aggression - any sort of 
aggression - than any other breed. This is too general a sentiment to 
even warrant being taken seriously, but it is doing damage nonetheless. 
Suffice it to say, if all breeds were the same, we would not have breeds, 
we’d just have dogs. Any dog could be trained to do any task to extreme 
efficiency. Shetland Sheepdogs could be trained in attack police work to 
perform like German Shepherds, and Siberian Huskies could be trained to 
herd sheep like either of the aforementioned herding breeds.

Pit Bulls are gluttons for human attention, love bugs supreme, and the 
real representatives of the breed don’t have an ounce of human-
aggression in their blood. It is insulting to any self-respecting bulldog fan 
that anyone would suggest Pit Bulls are no more and no less prone to 
human-aggression than any other breed. The breed should be rock solid 
and never show signs of unwarranted human aggression. In fact, the 
breed is so human-friendly that even sometimes when you wish they’d 
show some aggression (i.e. someone breaking into your home), you 
shouldn’t bet the bank that they’d do more than wag their butts and 
scramble to give a kiss on the lips. They aren’t guard dogs! (If you want a 
guard dog, get, hmmm, maybe a Rottweiler, or a Cane Corso - breeds 
bred for the task!)

Conversely, because of their history, Pit Bulls may be more prone to 
showing aggression directed at other dogs than say, a Beagle which is a 
breed bred to run in packs with - not fight - other dogs.

What’s so difficult to wrap your head around, here? Still, many folk want to 
insist "Pit Bulls are just like any other dogs". You wouldn’t insult the 
German Shepherd folk, or the Siberian Husky folk, or the Rhodesian 
Ridgeback folk by insisting that their breeds are "just like any other 
breed". Besides, it’s just not true.

Pit Bulls like all breeds are prone to their own breed-specific traits, 
idiosyncrasies of temperament, and likely to demonstrate certain 
behavioral tendencies. There ARE genetics involved in the manifestation of 
behavior, after all, an inextricable intertwining of nature vs nurture so that 
two breeds of different genetic makeup raised in the same environment 
will show different temperaments and behaviors. The same environment 
acting upon two unique beings made up of different genes. Environment is 
important. Unbelievably so. But without genetics, there would be no 
behavior to mold to begin with.

Since breeds are unique, just like people, it is a simple leap of logic to the 
mindset that says, "Not all breeds are suited to all people". When people 
who are mentally, personality-wise, environmentally, financially, 
educationally unsuited to a breed but obtain said breed with false notions 
of what that breed is all about, the end result can be truly disastrous.

When lots of people, as in the case of the Pit Bull, own a breed but are 
not necessarily properly suited for it, you have lots of problems, all over 
the place. Welcome to the Current Era and the Pit Bull Problem as we 
know it.

And here we are back to that Pollyanna Pit Bull Brigade that pushes 
popularity of the breed and insists Pit Bulls are just like any other dog - 
what breed IS 'just like any other dog???' The answer? None. This line of 
thinking when propagated creates for situations in which inexperienced, ill-
prepared dog owners end up with Pit Bulls they cannot manage.

The answer to the problem is simple: stop pushing Pit Bulls on the general 
public. Stop promoting them as "just like any other dog". Pit Bulls need to 
become LESS popular, not more. The breed is already too popular. That’s 
its problem. And until we find a way to drastically reduce numbers and 
shout from the rooftops what the Pit Bull IS and IS NOT, we’ll continue to 
see the downward spiral of one of the most magnificent creatures to ever 
live: that goofy silly special talented loving breed we call the America PIT 
BULL Terrier.


----------



## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> Exactly, some dogs DON'T inherit genes from their parents that their parents had been bred for.
> 
> I know dogs that have come from fighting rings. Two litters were recently brought into my shelter after being confiscated. Two moms- neither dog aggressive. One litter had puppies that as puppies were perfectly fine with other puppies/dogs. The other litter had puppies that were coming close to killing each other at less than 8 weeks. We had to seperate the entire litter because they were causing deep puncture wounds on each other and getting sick as a result of infection from so many bites in such a small amount of time. These puppies I have no doubt got someone's genes that made them DA. Whether that be a gene from their father or a recessive from their mother, I don't know. It is apparent that these dogs were not raised for a mere 7 weeks to be outright vicious though.


Environment?
LOL  

It's another great case of genetic DA but who is to say that those same puppies in a different environment would have the same behaviors? 

I see your point and hope that you see mine as well.


----------



## chicagojosh

rvadog said:


> How many Schutzhund dogs have you worked or trained? You honestly don't think top level schutzhund dogs are actively looking for something to bite and hold in their mouth at 6 weeks?
> 
> Your posts in this thread tell me you know nothing about how dogs mature, genetics and inherited traits.


 
I'm not a SCH trainer, my OB trainer is and I've learned a lot from her. I've learned that even a puppy with SCH pedrigree dating back to the dinosaurs may not have the drive to be a SCH dog itself. thats why they test dogs prior to beginning training genius. care to expalin that?

Aren't all 6 week old puppies looking for something to bite? that's called being a puppy/teething.

Man RVAdog you make some great points LOL. I've learned so much from you smart !#@ remarks. Let me know the next time a 6 week natually just starts to do real bitework...i won't hold my breath.

I keep to myself what your posts tell me about you so I don't get booted from the board.


----------



## LaRen616

:lurking:


----------



## gsdraven

valreegrl said:


> Both. The female he lives with in a very large inside/outside run. The pack work is supervised.


Maybe I worded my question wrong. Is he in the same outside run as her? Are they left loose together unsupervised?


----------



## valreegrl

sit said:


> *Not A Breed For
> Everyone
> **(And no breed is!)
> * Studying breed trends over the course of the 20th century, there is a clear
> pattern that shows popularity for any breed is extremely detrimental.
> Popularity manifests itself in a variety of problematic ways: over-breeding
> without regard to health or temperament; dogs sold to whoever forks
> over the money regardless of their suitability as owners; and lots of
> people without a real understanding of their breed of choice creating
> problem dogs that generate a negative effect that spills over to the public
> (by way of attacks); and lots of dogs ending up in shelters.
> 
> Popularity for Pit Bulls has been and will continue to be disastrous. A
> breed that should only be in the hands of but a few is now in the ends of,
> well, everyone. Many people who make decent dog owners make really
> bad Pit Bull owners. And there are lots of decent dog owners out there.
> 
> But just because not everyone should own a Pit Bull doesn’t mean no one
> should. This is a strong point that can be validated many ways, but two
> extremes that do not necessarily agree with this point are waging war
> right now and a win on either side will mean a loss for the American Pit
> Bull Terrier breed.
> 
> There are two ends of a broad spectrum: both are extreme, and both
> could ultimately spell disaster for the breed. One end believes no one
> should own Pit Bulls and the world would be a better place without them.
> This camp is working to destroy the breed through fear tactics, half truths,
> and lies. The other end of the spectrum believes Pit Bulls potentially
> belong in any dog-loving home, and can and should be in the public eye
> represented as the perfect breed of dog for lots and lots of people. This
> latter line of thinking seems to permeate large segments of the pro Pit Bull
> faction lately. This is a huge concern, as well-meaning people push the
> breed into the spotlight, declaring them, "the same as any other dog",
> and the perfect play pal for kids, teens, dogs, cats, horses, hamsters,
> whatever.
> 
> One tell tale sign of this latter segment - let’s call them the Pollyanna Pit
> Bull Brigade - is their pushing of the notion that Pit Bulls are the same as
> all other breeds, no more and no less prone to aggression - any sort of
> aggression - than any other breed. This is too general a sentiment to
> even warrant being taken seriously, but it is doing damage nonetheless.
> Suffice it to say, if all breeds were the same, we would not have breeds,
> we’d just have dogs. Any dog could be trained to do any task to extreme
> efficiency. Shetland Sheepdogs could be trained in attack police work to
> perform like German Shepherds, and Siberian Huskies could be trained to
> herd sheep like either of the aforementioned herding breeds.
> 
> Pit Bulls are gluttons for human attention, love bugs supreme, and the
> real representatives of the breed don’t have an ounce of human-
> aggression in their blood. It is insulting to any self-respecting bulldog fan
> that anyone would suggest Pit Bulls are no more and no less prone to
> human-aggression than any other breed. The breed should be rock solid
> and never show signs of unwarranted human aggression. In fact, the
> breed is so human-friendly that even sometimes when you wish they’d
> show some aggression (i.e. someone breaking into your home), you
> shouldn’t bet the bank that they’d do more than wag their butts and
> scramble to give a kiss on the lips. They aren’t guard dogs! (If you want a
> guard dog, get, hmmm, maybe a Rottweiler, or a Cane Corso - breeds
> bred for the task!)
> 
> Conversely, because of their history, Pit Bulls may be more prone to
> showing aggression directed at other dogs than say, a Beagle which is a
> breed bred to run in packs with - not fight - other dogs.
> 
> What’s so difficult to wrap your head around, here? Still, many folk want to
> insist "Pit Bulls are just like any other dogs". You wouldn’t insult the
> German Shepherd folk, or the Siberian Husky folk, or the Rhodesian
> Ridgeback folk by insisting that their breeds are "just like any other
> breed". Besides, it’s just not true.
> 
> Pit Bulls like all breeds are prone to their own breed-specific traits,
> idiosyncrasies of temperament, and likely to demonstrate certain
> behavioral tendencies. There ARE genetics involved in the manifestation of
> behavior, after all, an inextricable intertwining of nature vs nurture so that
> two breeds of different genetic makeup raised in the same environment
> will show different temperaments and behaviors. The same environment
> acting upon two unique beings made up of different genes. Environment is
> important. Unbelievably so. But without genetics, there would be no
> behavior to mold to begin with.
> 
> Since breeds are unique, just like people, it is a simple leap of logic to the
> mindset that says, "Not all breeds are suited to all people". When people
> who are mentally, personality-wise, environmentally, financially,
> educationally unsuited to a breed but obtain said breed with false notions
> of what that breed is all about, the end result can be truly disastrous.
> 
> When lots of people, as in the case of the Pit Bull, own a breed but are
> not necessarily properly suited for it, you have lots of problems, all over
> the place. Welcome to the Current Era and the Pit Bull Problem as we
> know it.
> 
> And here we are back to that Pollyanna Pit Bull Brigade that pushes
> popularity of the breed and insists Pit Bulls are just like any other dog -
> what breed IS 'just like any other dog???' The answer? None. This line of
> thinking when propagated creates for situations in which inexperienced, ill-
> prepared dog owners end up with Pit Bulls they cannot manage.
> 
> The answer to the problem is simple: stop pushing Pit Bulls on the general
> public. Stop promoting them as "just like any other dog". Pit Bulls need to
> become LESS popular, not more. The breed is already too popular. That’s
> its problem. And until we find a way to drastically reduce numbers and
> shout from the rooftops what the Pit Bull IS and IS NOT, we’ll continue to
> see the downward spiral of one of the most magnificent creatures to ever
> live: that goofy silly special talented loving breed we call the America PIT
> BULL Terrier.


I agree with many aspects of this post. "Pit Bulls" NEED to become less popular. And people pushing a "rosy laxy-daisy" idea of the breed are making a mistake as well. 
But the same can be said for GSDs.


----------



## valreegrl

gsdraven said:


> Maybe I worded my question wrong. Is he in the same outside run as her? Are they left loose together unsupervised?


Yes. They are in the same inside/outside kennel. They sleep together, eat together, play together. This was a reason why he was moved to the "undisclosed" place, further socialization in a specialized way. They ONLY deal with DA "Pit Bulls" and have studied the "breed" social class/behavior for many years. 
Part of the program is a "buddy" then moving upwards into a small pack then larger pack.


----------



## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> Environment?
> LOL
> 
> It's another great case of genetic DA but who is to say that those same puppies in a different environment would have the same behaviors?
> 
> I see your point and hope that you see mine as well.


Well, reports back on 3 of the 4 puppies say that they have the same behaviors in a wide range of different homes, including those were competition training have been enacted, but I do see your point.


----------



## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> Yes. They are in the same inside/outside kennel. They sleep together, eat together, play together. This was a reason why he was moved to the "undisclosed" place, further socialization in a specialized way. They ONLY deal with DA "Pit Bulls" and have studied the "breed" social class/behavior for many years.
> Part of the program is a "buddy" then moving upwards into a small pack then larger pack.


This sounds like the most uniformed, unintelligent facility to be dealing with pit bulls, imho. They obviously do not know or care enough about the breed. 

When trying to rehabilitate aggression from a breed so prone to it with such a bad rap, the last thing you want to do is set them up to fail, which is what this facility is doing. No person in their right mind leaves a dog aggressive dog unsupervised with other dogs, especially of the same history. I am shocked at the thought and hope I never come across anyone doing this or I would probably explode.


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> You're absolutely wrong. Pit bulls were BRED to be Dog Aggressive. It is a genetic trait that some dogs get. Many dogs come out of the womb aggressive so to speak and no amount of socialization or training will change them from maturing into a dog aggressive dog. There are very few other breeds if any that were bred to be aggressive and would come out of the womb DA. THOSE are cases of environmental, learned aggression.


*Actually, you are absolutely wrong!* If we follow your reasoning and actually believe that pits "come out of the womb aggressive", then how would you explain the fact that so many pits are very dog friendly? 

There is a big male pit bull in our obedience club who is my 3yo male GSD's (who has major issues with some other male dogs!) best friend. You should see them playing together.

Care to explain that one?

People like you and your grossly mistaken view of pits are why so many people fear and hate the breed.

BTW, do you also believe that Doberman's will "turn on their masters" because their brain gets too big for their skinny little heads?


----------



## sitstay

valreegrl said:


> I agree with many aspects of this post. "Pit Bulls" NEED to become less popular. And people pushing a "rosy laxy-daisy" idea of the breed are making a mistake as well.
> But the same can be said for GSDs.


Isn't that the point that others have tried to make? To say that it all comes down to training and/or socialization is to have a "rosy laxy-daisy" idea of the dog?

The simple fact is that MANY, many Pit Bulls are wonderful companions that would never hurt a fly. But there are also Pit Bulls that have never been trained to be animal aggressive at all and are still very much so.
Sheilah


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> This sounds like the most uniformed, unintelligent facility to be dealing with pit bulls, imho. They obviously do not know or care enough about the breed.
> 
> When trying to rehabilitate aggression from a breed so prone to it with such a bad rap, the last thing you want to do is set them up to fail, which is what this facility is doing. No person in their right mind leaves a dog aggressive dog unsupervised with other dogs, especially of the same history. I am shocked at the thought and hope I never come across anyone doing this or I would probably explode.


And you are an expert in DA - how?


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> *Actually, you are absolutely wrong!* If we follow your reasoning and actually believe that pits "come out of the womb aggressive", then how would you explain the fact that so many pits are very dog friendly?
> 
> There is a big male pit bull in our obedience club who is my 3yo male GSD's (who has major issues with some other male dogs!) best friend. You should see them playing together.
> 
> Care to explain that one?
> 
> People like you and your grossly mistaken view of pits are why so many people fear and hate the breed.
> 
> BTW, do you also believe that Doberman's will "turn on their masters" because their brain gets too big for their skinny little heads?


Are you rediculous? I'm not wrong at ALL. Not 100% of dogs inherit traits from their ancestors, dude. Not EVERY single pit bull is going to be Dog Aggressive, and I never said that. Dogs that DO have such a gene will always be dog aggressive, regardless of when it actually shows up in their personality.


----------



## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> This sounds like the most uniformed, unintelligent facility to be dealing with pit bulls, imho. They obviously do not know or care enough about the breed.
> 
> When trying to rehabilitate aggression from a breed so prone to it with such a bad rap, the last thing you want to do is set them up to fail, which is what this facility is doing. No person in their right mind leaves a dog aggressive dog unsupervised with other dogs, especially of the same history. I am shocked at the thought and hope I never come across anyone doing this or I would probably explode.


LOL!

Honestly, there is lots of behavior modification WELL before getting to this point. Which INCLUDES supervision when integrating. Their program has been successful many times over and of course is "undisclosed" for reasons pertaining to your comment. 

Without seeing this in action I would suspect one cannot give an educated comment otherwise.


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> OK... well im not saying a dog with a great SCH pedigree shouldn't do better at SCH than a non SCH dog IF THEY BOTH ARE TRAINED IN SCH. but is he coming out of the womb ready to bite sleeves...certainly not. I know dogs that came from SCH parents that "don't have the drive" to do SCH....explain that one?
> 
> dogs are individuals


I already said before that its extremely rare to have a full breeding that are all suitable for the task you're breeding for. I never said APBTs are ALL DA, just that its a much higher frequency than other breeds.

And YES, puppies are born with a desire to bite a sleeve (or anything else for that matter)... its the DRIVE that you are identifying in a pup, not a learned behavior obviously. DRIVES are genetic. You use the drives to accomplish your training goals


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> And you are an expert in DA - how?


I'm sorry, when did I say I was? 

I have dealt with hundreds of Dog Aggressive dogs and owned dog aggressive pit bulls all of my life, so I have done tons of research. They're a breed I respect, love, and admire. I know a lot about their personalities, genetics, and history. I know a lot of people that are working to better the breed. I know that what I quoted is the LAST thing a pit bull needs in its life, and any respectable pit bull owner/breeder would say the same.


----------



## valreegrl

sit said:


> Isn't that the point that others have tried to make? To say that it all comes down to training and/or socialization is to have a "rosy laxy-daisy" idea of the dog?
> 
> The simple fact is that MANY, many Pit Bulls are wonderful companions that would never hurt a fly. But there are also Pit Bulls that have never been trained to be animal aggressive at all and are still very much so.
> Sheilah


I am agreeing with the fact that "Pit Bulls" cannot be managed by everyone, just like GSDs which is where the "roxy laxy-daisy" comment came from. NOT with the fact that they need to be labeled possible DA from the womb.


----------



## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> Without seeing this in action I would suspect one cannot give an educated comment otherwise.


I would never want to see such a thing. It is an idiotic move ime and I can't believe and never will that it hasn't lead to disaster yet. I am familiar with a TON of rehabilitative moves to integrate pit bulls into a pack and have no qualms about that, but it needs to be done under supervision.


----------



## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> I would never want to see such a thing. It is an idiotic move ime and I can't believe and never will that it hasn't lead to disaster yet. I am familiar with a TON of rehabilitative moves to integrate pit bulls into a pack and have no qualms about that, but it needs to be done under supervision.


Again, because you believe DA CANNOT be trained out. 

We are both in the same spot, opposite sides of the fence. The difference being I am open to solution.


----------



## sitstay

codmaster said:


> *Actually, you are absolutely wrong!* If we follow your reasoning and actually believe that pits "come out of the womb aggressive", then how would you explain the fact that so many pits are very dog friendly?
> 
> There is a big male pit bull in our obedience club who is my 3yo male GSD's (who has major issues with some other male dogs!) best friend. You should see them playing together.
> 
> Care to explain that one?
> 
> People like you and your grossly mistaken view of pits are why so many people fear and hate the breed.
> 
> BTW, do you also believe that Doberman's will "turn on their masters" because their brain gets too big for their skinny little heads?


I am glad that your GSD has a good friend, but you shouldn't assume that just because the big male your dog plays with is not DA that any other Pitty raised in the same way would also be non-DA. There could be many different contributing factors to that dog's behavior: genetics, training, AGE. A littermate to the Pit you reference, raised in exactly the same way, might not be other-animal tolerant. 

It can also be said that people who insist on the "I can train/love/socialize DA out of EVERY Pitty" is also contributing to why so many people fear and hate the breed. To put a halo on them, IMHO, is every bit as dangerous to the breed as is demonizing them. One side expects too much and the other side expects nothing.

I have worked with some very breed knowledgeable folks over the years, and they all say that the best interests of the breed lay in being realistic about the breed. 
Sheilah


----------



## chicagojosh

hunterisgreat said:


> And YES, puppies are born with a desire to bite a sleeve (or anything else for that matter)... its the DRIVE that you are identifying in a pup, not a learned behavior obviously. DRIVES are genetic. You use the drives to accomplish your training goals


so based on the DRIVE vs learned behavior theory. how is it explained when a puppy with SCH pedigrees does not have the drive to do SCH?

I was talking to my trainer about Cody and protection and or SCH. I explained his mom's side is ALL SCH dogs. She said that doesn't mean jack. We need to test CODYs drive, as he's the one we'd be training not his great grandma...


----------



## DJEtzel

chicagojosh said:


> so based on the DRIVE vs learned behavior theory. how is it explained when a puppy with SCH pedigrees does not have the drive to do SCH?
> 
> I was talking to my trainer about Cody and protection and or SCH. I explained his mom's side is ALL SCH dogs. She said that doesn't mean jack. We need to test CODYs drive, as he's the one we'd be training not his great grandma...


Your trainer wants to see if Cody inherited that drive from his mom or not, because (as with DA) it is entirely possible that he didn't inherit the drive.


----------



## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> I am agreeing with the fact that "Pit Bulls" cannot be managed by everyone, just like GSDs which is where the "roxy laxy-daisy" comment came from. NOT with the fact that they need to be labeled possible DA from the womb.


With their history, you cannot act as though they will always be perfect angels. You have to be aware of what they were bred for and what is in their genes to be 100% responsible with them and proactive. With the light they have on them right now, they do not need people going around saying they can't be aggressive and this and that. You have to be realistic and handle them well.


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> so based on the DRIVE vs learned behavior theory. how is it explained when a puppy with SCH pedigrees does not have the drive to do SCH?
> 
> I was talking to my trainer about Cody and protection and or SCH. I explained his mom's side is ALL SCH dogs. She said that doesn't mean jack. We need to test CODYs drive, as he's the one we'd be training not his great grandma...


Your trainer is wrong in saying it has no bearing, but right in that she meant there is no guarentee he will be able to be SchH3 titled... there is a high chance the dog will have good drives. There is also always a chance that it won't. Expecting any dog born of SchH3 parents to be SchH3 quality is unrealistic. Likewise, expecting a dog born of a long line of unworked dogs having the same possibility of being SchH3 titled as a puppy from the above breeding is equally unrealistic.

As I'm stating for the 3rd time now, it is extremely rare that all the pups in a litter are of SchH3 quality even when the parents are titled.


----------



## valreegrl

sit said:


> I am glad that your GSD has a good friend, but you shouldn't assume that just because the big male your dog plays with is not DA that any other Pitty raised in the same way would also be non-DA. There could be many different contributing factors to that dog's behavior: genetics, training, AGE. A littermate to the Pit you reference, raised in exactly the same way, might not be other-animal tolerant.
> 
> It can also be said that people who insist on the "I can train/love/socialize DA out of EVERY Pitty" is also contributing to why so many people fear and hate the breed. To put a halo on them, IMHO, is every bit as dangerous to the breed as is demonizing them. One side expects too much and the other side expects nothing.
> 
> I have worked with some very breed knowledgeable folks over the years, and they all say that the best interests of the breed lay in being realistic about the breed.
> Sheilah


There has been a study done trying to prove that at the age of 3 there is no turning back. That part of the brain is calloused with a rut where neurons have run back and forth with a particular behavior and it cannot be overcome. 
Do I believe that this study has correlation with the fact that EVERY DA dog cannot be changed? Possibly. But I will wait to see more evidence


----------



## sitstay

chicagojosh said:


> so based on the DRIVE vs learned behavior theory. how is it explained when a puppy with SCH pedigrees does not have the drive to do SCH?


Because that puppy might have gotten the short end of the genetic stick, schutzhund-ly speaking?

Why do some of the most breathtakingly gorgeous people have butt ugly children? 
Sheilah


----------



## chicagojosh

DJEtzel said:


> Your trainer wants to see if Cody inherited that drive from his mom or not, because (as with DA) it is entirely possible that he didn't inherit the drive.


so DJETZEL...do you agree or disagree with: "pitbulls come out of the womb DA?"

im trying to follow all these posts, but this thread is very active

i originally objected to that post by RVAdog. i still feel my point that you just quoted validates the fact that just because a dogs parents are bred to be DA it does not make every puppy they have DA. again, dogs are individuals.

if he inherited it is the wording you used. So same goes for pits...IF they inherited the DA, and I feel even if they did it can be trained out. Again, based on things i've seen with my own eyes and testimonials from those in my OB class who once had DA dogs that they worked with and are no longer DA


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> *Are you rediculous*? I'm not wrong at ALL. Not 100% of dogs inherit traits from their ancestors, dude. Not EVERY single pit bull is going to be Dog Aggressive, and I never said that. Dogs that DO have such a gene will always be dog aggressive, regardless of when it actually shows up in their personality.


No!

You said it was *"in their genes"!* Or maybe you forgot you said that?

Now you change your tune to "not every single pit bull will be DA" - does that mean that these DON'T have it "in their genes" ?

So now maybe you could tell everyone here, just how many pits really and trully "have DA in their genes"? 10%, 20%, 30% or what?

Would this number of Pits who really do "have DA in their genes" be greater than the number of GSD's or Airdales or Pomeranians who are DA?


----------



## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> With their history, you cannot act as though they will always be perfect angels. You have to be aware of what they were bred for and what is in their genes to be 100% responsible with them and proactive. With the light they have on them right now, they do not need people going around saying they can't be aggressive and this and that. You have to be realistic and handle them well.


Yup 

This pertains to many "bully" breeds.


----------



## chicagojosh

sit said:


> Because that puppy might have gotten the short end of the genetic stick, schutzhund-ly speaking?
> 
> Why do some of the most breathtakingly gorgeous people have butt ugly children?
> Sheilah


 
right so we agree sit/stay. RVAdog is the one who said they come out of the womb aggressive and i've noticed they've disapeared from the thread too...wonder why


----------



## valreegrl

codmaster said:


> No!
> 
> You said it was *"in their genes"!* Or maybe you forgot you said that?
> 
> Now you change your tune to "not every single pit bull will be DA" - does that mean that these DON'T have it "in their genes" ?
> 
> So now maybe you could tell everyone here, just how many pits really and trully "have DA in their genes"? 10%, 20%, 30% or what?
> 
> Would this number of Pits who really do "have DA in their genes" be greater than the number of GSD's or Airdales or Pomeranians who are DA?


I think her point has been that not ALL will be genetically predisposed but the ones that are (and would love a test for that!) will ALWAYS be DA. 

I have to say, some traits run so deep in bloodlines that eventually ALL will be predisposed, so does she think the same is true at this very moment for "Pit Bulls". And if not, where is the switch?


----------



## chicagojosh

hunterisgreat said:


> Your trainer is wrong in saying it has no bearing, but right in that she meant there is no guarentee he will be able to be SchH3 titled... there is a high chance the dog will have good drives. There is also always a chance that it won't. Expecting any dog born of SchH3 parents to be SchH3 quality is unrealistic. Likewise, expecting a dog born of a long line of unworked dogs having the same possibility of being SchH3 titled as a puppy from the above breeding is equally unrealistic.
> 
> As I'm stating for the 3rd time now, it is extremely rare that all the pups in a litter are of SchH3 quality even when the parents are titled.


 
hunter so you agree with me too! I'm the one pointing out dogs are individuals here....


----------



## hunterisgreat

codmaster said:


> No!
> 
> You said it was *"in their genes"!* Or maybe you forgot you said that?
> 
> Now you change your tune to "not every single pit bull will be DA" - does that mean that these DON'T have it "in their genes" ?
> 
> So now maybe you could tell everyone here, just how many pits really and trully "have DA in their genes"? 10%, 20%, 30% or what?
> 
> Would this number of Pits who really do "have DA in their genes" be greater than the number of GSD's or Airdales or Pomeranians who are DA?


I would say pits have higher incidence of expressing DA than other breeds b/c they were bred for that. GSDs are not bred for that. GSDs are bred for civil aggression (among other things). I'd say they have a higher incidence of civil than pits. Blood hounds are bred for high hunt drive. They've got a higher incidence of that then others.


----------



## valreegrl

chicagojosh said:


> right so we agree sit/stay. RVAdog is the one who said they come out of the womb aggressive and i've noticed they've disapeared from the thread too...wonder why


No idea, but RVAdog looks to be a trainer which is what started me off in the beginning. People at a professional level cannot spat off theories as truth.


----------



## chicagojosh

god lord do i hope RVA is not a trainer... i imagine he/she would not allow a pit in class then since it came out of the womb DA LOLOLOLOL


----------



## LaRen616

chicagojosh said:


> god lord do i hope RVA is not a trainer... i imagine he/she would not allow a pit in class then since it came out of the womb DA LOLOLOLOL


:laugh:


----------



## codmaster

sit said:


> I am glad that your GSD has a good friend, but you shouldn't assume that just because the big male your dog plays with is not DA that any other Pitty raised in the same way would also be non-DA. There could be many different contributing factors to that dog's behavior: genetics, training, AGE. A littermate to the Pit you reference, raised in exactly the same way, might not be other-animal tolerant.
> 
> It can also be said that people who insist on the "I can train/love/socialize DA out of EVERY Pitty" is also contributing to why so many people fear and hate the breed. To put a halo on them, IMHO, is every bit as dangerous to the breed as is demonizing them. One side expects too much and the other side expects nothing.
> 
> I have worked with some very breed knowledgeable folks over the years, and they all say that the best interests of the breed lay in being realistic about the breed.
> Sheilah


Never wanted to put a halo on pits or GSD's or any other breed!

I simply pointed out that PB's are not genetically DA - most of them today are MANY generations removed from the pit and dog fighting. Many pits are VERY friendly dogs - some are not, either to people or to other dogs. Sounds sort of like GSD's, doesn't it!


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> hunter so you agree with me too! I'm the one pointing out dogs are individuals here....


I've always agreed with that point. The difference is I understand pits have a much higher incidence of DA due to breeding that predisposition into them. Same thing with how they thrash in a bite. That was a selected trait in breedings b/c it wins dog fights. GSD's are bred to have deep full mouth, non thrashing bites b/c they stop criminals with the minimal force needed. Neither breed always exhibits the above traits, but they both are much higher in the specified trait than the other. 

Hound & hunting dogs are bred to track down/flush prey. Ask anyone with hounds about how they tend to wander off. Herding dogs are bred to do just that. They tend to stick close by with much more regularity. Hound owners must be aware of their tendencies and take measures to deal with them. Same as pit, gsd, etc owners need to know what their breed exhibits and be prepared to address that.

I don't think anyone said pits are ALL aggressive, but there is a very real chance a given dog is. Denying that just means they don't take measures to prevent dog fights. Which mean peoples dogs die for preventable reasons


----------



## valreegrl

chicagojosh said:


> god lord do i hope RVA is not a trainer... i imagine he/she would not allow a pit in class then since it came out of the womb DA LOLOLOLOL


HAHA! That's funny because it's true!


----------



## hunterisgreat

codmaster said:


> Never wanted to put a halo on pits or GSD's or any other breed!
> 
> I simply pointed out that PB's are not genetically DA - most of them today are MANY generations removed from the pit and dog fighting. Many pits are VERY friendly dogs - some are not, either to people or to other dogs. Sounds sort of like GSD's, doesn't it!


Well... dog fighting is alive and well on the east coast, so the run of the mill pound pit here is likely at best a few generations off.


----------



## sitstay

valreegrl said:


> Do I believe that this study has correlation with the fact that EVERY DA dog cannot be changed? Possibly. But I will wait to see more evidence


I am making no comment on how many DA dogs can be "rehabilitated". I know that some of any breed can certainly be worked with to varying degrees of success (from learning to love other dogs to simply getting to the point that they won't eat through a wall to get at the neighbor's dog). That is a debate left to another day, perhaps.

I am commenting on how dangerous it is to the entire breed, and ALL the many problems faced by that breed, to be blinded to the fact that DA was a trait selectively chosen and bred for, and because of that genetically driven behavior, very much an issue with some (but not all) of the breed. To think otherwise is to buy into a "Disney-fied" or "Pollyanna Brigade" mind set.

To walk into owning a Pitty (or any one of a number of different breeds) with the idea that you can love/train/socialize and not have to deal with a dog that MAY not be safe around other animals is to do just as much damage as the owner that purposefully sets out to create a dangerous dog by training for aggression with other animals. One extreme ignores the issue and the other one exploits it. 
Sheilah


----------



## codmaster

hunterisgreat said:


> I've always agreed with that point. The difference is I understand pits have a much higher incidence of DA due to breeding that predisposition into them. Same thing with how they thrash in a bite. That was a selected trait in breedings b/c it wins dog fights. GSD's are bred to have deep full mouth, non thrashing bites b/c they stop criminals with the minimal force needed. Neither breed always exhibits the above traits, but they both are much higher in the specified trait than the other.
> 
> Hound & hunting dogs are bred to track down/flush prey. Ask anyone with hounds about how they tend to wander off. Herding dogs are bred to do just that. They tend to stick close by with much more regularity.
> 
> I don't think anyone said pits are ALL aggressive, but there is a very real chance a given dog is. Denying that just means they don't take measures to prevent dog fights. Which mean peoples dogs die for preventable reasons


How many generations does it take to reduce a trait/feature that is not selected for in breeding?

Think about that for a moment and then think about how many generations removed from the pit itself are the PB that are around now?

Selection does work!


----------



## valreegrl

chicagojosh said:


> god lord do i hope RVA is not a trainer... i imagine he/she would not allow a pit in class then since it came out of the womb DA LOLOLOLOL


Looks like trainer to me. His link leads to a training site and what is worse, he works dog-dog aggression!
Wonder if he tells them to "put it back into the womb!"


----------



## chicagojosh

on a seperate but similiar note... Daschunds I've read are most likely to bite people. clearly they don't do the most damage, but most likely to bite.

now a daschund is a "weiner dog" not trained / bred to do anything as far as I know. so...what's their deal? generations of getting stepped on has caused this? lol what gene did they inherit? no one taught / bred them to bite people...


----------



## hunterisgreat

codmaster said:


> How many generations does it take to reduce a trait/feature that is not selected for in breeding?
> 
> Think about that for a moment and then think about how many generations removed from the pit itself are the PB that are around now?
> 
> Selection does work!


You've illustrated a misunderstanding on how genes work. Traits don't disappear because they are not selected for in a breeding. Traits disappear because they are selected to be NOT bred. Anything not selected for in a breeding, is solely changing because of genetic "wandering" and normal variations. This is why if you do not actively breed a trait OUT, it will continue being passed down, albeit with variation over time... this is not NEARLY as fast as selective breeding


----------



## sitstay

codmaster said:


> I simply pointed out that PB's are not genetically DA - most of them today are MANY generations removed from the pit and dog fighting. Many pits are VERY friendly dogs - some are not, either to people or to other dogs. Sounds sort of like GSD's, doesn't it!


But they ARE genetically predisposed to being DA, due to the traits that were selectively bred for. 

Why can't you accept that it is not an either-or situation? You seem to want to make it "Either all Pits are DA, or no Pits are DA". 

And I don't know about where you live, but here many of the poor Pits in shelters are not far removed from game-bred dogs at all. 

The vast, vast majority of Pit Bulls are very friendly to people. If not overly friendly, since they have no self preservation when it comes to putting up with a whole lot from people. They were BRED that way. It is another trait selectively bred for. That made them safe for humans in the fighting ring. Nobody wanted to have to reach in with a break stick during a fight and have the dog redirect onto them.
Sheilah


----------



## chicagojosh

valreegrl said:


> Looks like trainer to me. His link leads to a training site and what is worse, he works dog-dog aggression!
> Wonder if he tells them to "put it back into the womb!"


LOL "back to the womb with this one" lord save his students!!!

all i can say is next time i see a pitbull im picking up my 90 pound GSD and running for the hills!!!!!  that thing is liable to kill any second! what was i thinking letting Cody run with "such a crowd"


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> on a seperate but similiar note... Daschunds I've read are most likely to bite people. clearly they don't do the most damage, but most likely to bite.
> 
> now a daschund is a "weiner dog" not trained / bred to do anything as far as I know. so...what's their deal? generations of getting stepped on has caused this? lol what gene did they inherit? no one taught / bred them to bite people...


They were bred to hunt prey in burrows in the ground. Usually small dogs are poorly behaved b/c people think its not a big deal for a small dog to jump on you, or bite you


----------



## LaRen616

chicagojosh said:


> LOL "back to the womb with this one" lord save his students!!!
> 
> all i can say is next time i see a pitbull im picking up my 90 pound GSD and running for the hills!!!!!  that thing is liable to kill any second! *what was i thinking letting Cody run with "such a crowd*"


What kind of father are you?!


----------



## valreegrl

hunterisgreat said:


> They were bred to hunt prey in burrows in the ground. Usually small dogs are poorly behaved b/c people think its not a big deal for a small dog to jump on you, or bite you


This is true! Small dogs are an entire thread in itself


----------



## hunterisgreat

sit said:


> But they ARE genetically predisposed to being DA, due to the traits that were selectively bred for.
> 
> Why can't you accept that it is not an either-or situation? You seem to want to make it "Either all Pits are DA, or no Pits are DA".
> 
> And I don't know about where you live, but here many of the poor Pits in shelters are not far removed from game-bred dogs at all.
> 
> The vast, vast majority of Pit Bulls are very friendly to people. If not overly friendly, since they have no self preservation when it comes to putting up with a whole lot from people. They were BRED that way. It is another trait selectively bred for. That made them safe for humans in the fighting ring. Nobody wanted to have to reach in with a break stick during a fight and have the dog redirect onto them.
> Sheilah


There are plenty of shelter dogs with lots of scars here. Thats a big fat 0 generations off lol.

Like I said before, many professional dog men have different breeds to guard their prize dog kennels. Breeds that are bred for civil aggression


----------



## sitstay

chicagojosh said:


> on a seperate but similiar note... Daschunds I've read are most likely to bite people. clearly they don't do the most damage, but most likely to bite.
> 
> now a daschund is a "weiner dog" not trained / bred to do anything as far as I know. so...what's their deal? generations of getting stepped on has caused this? lol what gene did they inherit? no one taught / bred them to bite people...


No, they were bred to go into tight tunnels and hunt vermin. Not exactly a "turn the other cheek" profession. Here is a cut and paste lifted directly from the AKC:
"The goal was to create a fearless, elongated dog that could dig the earth from a badger burrow and fight to the death with the vicious badgers."

Do you think that there might possibly be a connection between bred for purpose and behavior?
Sheilah


----------



## chicagojosh

hunterisgreat said:


> They were bred to hunt prey in burrows in the ground. Usually small dogs are poorly behaved b/c people think its not a big deal for a small dog to jump on you, or bite you


ah, i didn't know they were supposed to be hunters. so in their case you're going with lack of training by dachsund owners?


----------



## valreegrl

sit said:


> But they ARE genetically predisposed to being DA, due to the traits that were selectively bred for.
> 
> Why can't you accept that it is not an either-or situation? You seem to want to make it "Either all Pits are DA, or no Pits are DA".
> 
> And I don't know about where you live, but here many of the poor Pits in shelters are not far removed from game-bred dogs at all.
> 
> The vast, vast majority of Pit Bulls are very friendly to people. If not overly friendly, since they have no self preservation when it comes to putting up with a whole lot from people. They were BRED that way. It is another trait selectively bred for. That made them safe for humans in the fighting ring. Nobody wanted to have to reach in with a break stick during a fight and have the dog redirect onto them.
> Sheilah


I think the question was are ALL genetically predisposed or just some? Not that ALL are DA.


----------



## codmaster

hunterisgreat said:


> You've illustrated a misunderstanding on how genes work. Traits don't disappear because they are not selected for in a breeding. Traits disappear because they are selected to be NOT bred. Anything not selected for in a breeding, is solely changing because of genetic "wandering" and normal variations. This is why if you do not actively breed a trait OUT, it will continue being passed down, albeit with variation over time... this is not NEARLY as fast as selective breeding


You have provided a great illustration of no understanding of genetics! 

It was funny to read. But maybe you can explain how you would go about the following: *"selected to be NOT bred".*

If one does not select the dogs who are the best fighters, regardless of their other virtues, then the fighting genes (if one believed that there were such a thing as "fighting genes" in the first place) will become less and less in succeeding generations.


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> LOL "back to the womb with this one" lord save his students!!!
> 
> all i can say is next time i see a pitbull im picking up my 90 pound GSD and running for the hills!!!!!  that thing is liable to kill any second! what was i thinking letting Cody run with "such a crowd"


At the dog park a pit put a 1/2 inch diameter hole in my male's thigh b/c he chased his stick into the water. Any dog that moved rapidly around this dog triggered its prey drive. Owner was off reading a book. Prime example of an idiotic owner oblivious to the drives that are behind their dog, and the resulting ignorance/denial resulting in an innocent third party going to the vet.


----------



## valreegrl

hunterisgreat said:


> There are plenty of shelter dogs with lots of scars here. Thats a big fat 0 generations off lol.
> 
> Like I said before, many professional dog men have different breeds to guard their prize dog kennels. Breeds that are bred for civil aggression


But scars cannot tell us DA though 
Maybe they tussled on the streets for food. Or bait dog. 
Can't tell bloodlines from that.


----------



## valreegrl

hunterisgreat said:


> At the dog park a pit put a 1/2 inch diameter hole in my male's thigh b/c he chased his stick into the water. Any dog that moved rapidly around this dog triggered its prey drive. Owner was off reading a book. Prime example of an idiotic owner oblivious to the drives that are behind their dog, and the resulting ignorance/denial resulting in an innocent third party going to the vet.


Yes, ignorance on owner's behalf and another reason why dog parks don't work. 
But it could have just as easily been another breed fighting your dog over a stick. Heck, my GSD and Samoyed have gone at it over a bone and neither are DA.


----------



## chicagojosh

sit said:


> No, they were bred to go into tight tunnels and hunt vermin. Not exactly a "turn the other cheek" profession. Here is a cut and paste lifted directly from the AKC:
> "The goal was to create a fearless, elongated dog that could dig the earth from a badger burrow and fight to the death with the vicious badgers."
> 
> Do you think that there might possibly be a connection between bred for purpose and behavior?
> Sheilah


of course...possibly. i've never denied genetics can be passed along/play a role etc. but it's the blanket statements i disagree with. not to mention how many dachsunds out there this day and age are actually trained/bred to hunt? i've NEVER heard of one. so that behavior I feel is really not bred in dachsunds of the 2000's


----------



## hunterisgreat

codmaster said:


> You have provided a great illustration of no understanding of genetics!
> 
> It was funny to read. But maybe you can explain how you would go about the following: *"selected to be NOT bred".*
> 
> If one does not select the dogs who are the best fighters, regardless of their other virtues, then the fighting genes (if one believed that there were such a thing as "fighting genes" in the first place) will become less and less in succeeding generations.


You are coming to an incorrect conclusion... if the "fighting ability" traits are disregarded in future breedings, you can't say anything about what will happen to those traits. They WILL change over time. Maybe go up, maybe down. They are purely at the whim of genetic variation at that point.

And you select a trait to not be bred, but not breeding dogs that exhibit the trait you seek to extinguish... like hip displasia. And even if we bred out displasia, there is nothing to stop a mutation down the road bringing it right back unless that trait is once again selected to not be bred.


----------



## hunterisgreat

valreegrl said:


> But scars cannot tell us DA though
> Maybe they tussled on the streets for food. Or bait dog.
> Can't tell bloodlines from that.


No, we can only assume the handlers weren't stupid when selecting their fight dogs.

Pit fighting scars are very very different than a tussle over food. Bait dogs are just dogs that didn't demonstrate the DA to be fighting dogs.

And no we can't tell anything about bloodlines, but we can make pretty good assumptions. I can assume the next malinois I see in a cop car has had strong working ability bred into him.


----------



## chicagojosh

hunterisgreat said:


> At the dog park a pit put a 1/2 inch diameter hole in my male's thigh b/c he chased his stick into the water. Any dog that moved rapidly around this dog triggered its prey drive. Owner was off reading a book. Prime example of an idiotic owner oblivious to the drives that are behind their dog, and the resulting ignorance/denial resulting in an innocent third party going to the vet.


 
hunter that completely sucks! but a GSD, lab or golden could have done the same thing. in my OB class there are all sorts of DA dogs in there. some pits, some not. stupid owner is certainly at fault for that one.


----------



## hunterisgreat

valreegrl said:


> Yes, ignorance on owner's behalf and another reason why dog parks don't work.
> But it could have just as easily been another breed fighting your dog over a stick. Heck, my GSD and Samoyed have gone at it over a bone and neither are DA.


IME, the number of pit initiated dog fights at the dog park is well over 10 fold the number of fights not involving a pit.

That is a diff scenario. This pit had no interest in the stick, or swimming. It wasn't a bite over competition for something, or fear. Only triggering on any fast moving dog around it.


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> hunter that completely sucks! but a GSD, lab or golden could have done the same thing. in my OB class there are all sorts of DA dogs in there. some pits, some not. stupid owner is certainly at fault for that one.


Big difference is that most dogs that are dog aggressive of other breeds are fear based. There is a higher chance a given pit that IS DA, IS DA b/c of breeding than environment, relative to other breeds not bred for baiting or fighting


----------



## hunterisgreat

I don't understand how people can accept that retrievers are great at swimming and retrieving b/c genetic predisposition, GSDs make good herding and police dogs b/c of genetic predisposition, small terriers bred for vermin control are good at vermin control b/c of genetic predisposition, ALL things selectively bred in, but reject that pit bulls are good at dog fighting b/c of a genetic predisposition bred into them.


----------



## valreegrl

hunterisgreat said:


> IME, the number of pit initiated dog fights at the dog park is well over 10 fold the number of fights not involving a pit.
> 
> That is a diff scenario. This pit had no interest in the stick, or swimming. It wasn't a bite over competition for something, or fear. Only triggering on any fast moving dog around it.


Is that because they outnumber other breeds? That "Pit Bull" can encompass over 30 breeds so their numbers WOULD outway the others?


----------



## hunterisgreat

valreegrl said:


> Is that because they outnumber other breeds? That "Pit Bull" can encompass over 30 breeds so their numbers WOULD outway the others?


That does skew that, but they are not outnumbering everything else to that degree either. I know what a pit is. No need to break out the "identify the pit bull" quiz either


----------



## chicagojosh

hunterisgreat said:


> I don't understand how people can accept that retrievers are great at swimming and retrieving b/c genetic predisposition, GSDs make good herding and police dogs b/c of genetic predisposition, small terriers bred for vermin control are good at vermin control b/c of genetic predisposition, ALL things selectively bred in, but reject that pit bulls are good at dog fighting b/c of a genetic predisposition bred into them.


I'm not saying that myself. (not sure who if anyone that's aimed at). I am aware that if Cody gets into a fight with a pit it's gonna be an ugly fight as they are often good fighters. 

I am aware also though...lots of pits are not DA. pits that are from fighting CAN be trained not to be DA, a pit with fighting parents COULD suck at fighting, and last but certainly not least. NO pit comes out of the womb looking to fight...it's a baby for gods sake! 

I'd also say not all retrievers make good retreivers, and not all GSD's can be police dogs.

once again...lets look at the individual dogs personality


----------



## valreegrl

hunterisgreat said:


> That does skew that, but they are not outnumbering everything else to that degree either. I know what a pit is. No need to break out the "identify the pit bull" quiz either


LOL! Love the quiz  
But yes, lots of factors go into this conversation. Nothing is concrete and never should be assumed so.


----------



## sitstay

chicagojosh said:


> of course...possibly. i've never denied genetics can be passed along/play a role etc. but it's the blanket statements i disagree with. not to mention how many dachsunds out there this day and age are actually trained/bred to hunt? i've NEVER heard of one. so that behavior I feel is really not bred in dachsunds of the 2000's


There is nothing wrong with saying that genetics play an important role in behavior, dogs were bred to perform certain tasks and those breeds are now genetically predisposed to perform that task. A Bloodhound has been bred to track, so they are genetically predisposed to behave in a certain way. That is why you see more Bloodhounds being used to track and not as many to herd sheep. They have a genetic predisposition to do better as trackers. 

BTW, Dachshunds are incredible little hunters. Google it and you'll be surprised. Just because you haven't personally heard of it doesn't mean that it isn't out there happening every single day.
Sheilah


----------



## chicagojosh

sit said:


> There is nothing wrong with saying that genetics play an important role in behavior, dogs were bred to perform certain tasks and those breeds are now genetically predisposed to perform that task. A Bloodhound has been bred to track, so they are genetically predisposed to behave in a certain way. That is why you see more Bloodhounds being used to track and not as many to herd sheep. They have a genetic predisposition to do better as trackers.
> 
> BTW, Dachshunds are incredible little hunters. Google it and you'll be surprised. Just because you haven't personally heard of it doesn't mean that it isn't out there happening every single day.
> Sheilah


 a hound tracking right out of the womb? is it possible for a hound to not inherit the tracking skills of its parents? is it possible for a hound to be taught NOT to wander off? are there hounds out there that do not make for a good tracking dog? 

I would answer YES to all of those. now, apply that to the Pit with DA


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> I'm not saying that myself. (not sure who if anyone that's aimed at). I am aware that if Cody gets into a fight with a pit it's gonna be an ugly fight as they are good fighters.
> 
> I am aware also though...lots of pits are not DA. pits that are from fighting CAN be trained not to be DA, a pit with fighting parents COULD suck at fighting, and last but certainly not least. NO pit comes out of the womb looking to fight...it's a baby for gods sake!
> 
> I'd also say not all retrievers make good retreivers, and not all GSD's can be police dogs.
> 
> once again...lets look at the individual dogs personality


It was a general remark regarding the agenda many people push, not even directed at anyone in this thread. If you go up to a pit owner and say "Do you have a pit bull?" the response will usually immediately roll into how lovable and docile and safe they are.

I agree mostly. Lots (the vast majority) of GSDs are not SchH-grade dogs. As far as training out DA, I would not use the word "trained", but rather "managed" if it is genetic. You cannot train away any instinct. Can you train a dog to not want to eat? No. You can manage his desire to eat, and "train" him to wait for a command to eat (but in this since this is really managing an instinct).

A dog (of any breed) that is DA genetically, was DA at 1 hour old it just didn't exhibit that behavior. Labs and spaniels don't like to swim as young puppies either, but that doesn't mean that swimming behavior isn't already there. (between roommates, and parents, we've had 20 or so labs and spaniels since puppyhood so I'm confident with my assessment)

In a fear based DA dog, you can eliminate the cause of the DA and the DA will go away. In a genetically predisposed DA, you cannot address the genetics of THAT dog, you can only choose to not breed him and address it in the breed as a whole.


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> a hound tracking right out of the womb? is it possible for a hound to not inherit the tracking skills of its parents? is it possible for a hound to be taught NOT to wander off? are there hounds out there that do not make for a good tracking dog?
> 
> I would answer YES to all of those. now, apply that to the Pit with DA


I already have.

And you just said that pits who exhibit "fighting skills" exhibit those from birth which seems to contradict what you said earlier I think, unless I've confused that statement with another.

It is possible to manage a hounds desire to hunt game, and to train him to do what you wish instead of acting on that desire, but you cannot remove the desire... it is there and always will be
It is possible to manage a pits desire to fight dogs, and to train him to do what you wish instead of acting on that desire, but you cannot remove the desire... it is there and always will be

obviously, this implies I'm only talking about dogs out of a breeding that exhibit these traits.


----------



## sitstay

chicagojosh said:


> NO pit comes out of the womb looking to fight...it's a baby for gods sake!


Well, I guess you haven't seen many litter of puppies, have you? While I am not saying that ALL Pitty pups come out of the womb look for a fight, some show a high propensity for aggression at a very young age. I sent a litter of Pitty puppies out to foster and half were euthanized before ever going up for adoption because of the aggression they were showing to littermates when they were as young as 7-8 weeks. Of the 5 pups that were eventually put up for adoption, one was returned at 7 months of age for killing the small dog it had been raised with. I lost touch with the other adopters, so I have no idea what happened to the other adopted pups. 

Listen to what very experienced Pit Bull people will tell you. Shoot, listen to people who are very experienced in other breeds. They will tell you that it is often easy to spot genetic traits in very young puppies. 

They might be babies, but even a baby can be a victim of their biology.
Sheilah


----------



## sitstay

chicagojosh said:


> a hound tracking right out of the womb? is it possible for a hound to not inherit the tracking skills of its parents? is it possible for a hound to be taught NOT to wander off? are there hounds out there that do not make for a good tracking dog?
> 
> I would answer YES to all of those. now, apply that to the Pit with DA


Sorry, guy. You have single-handed made my brain explode. You talk in circles, contradict yourself and then reverse course.

You know what you know and that is the end.
Sheilah


----------



## valreegrl

sit said:


> Well, I guess you haven't seen many litter of puppies, have you? While I am not saying that ALL Pitty pups come out of the womb look for a fight, some show a high propensity for aggression at a very young age. I sent a litter of Pitty puppies out to foster and half were euthanized before ever going up for adoption because of the aggression they were showing to littermates when they were as young as 7-8 weeks. Of the 5 pups that were eventually put up for adoption, one was returned at 7 months of age for killing the small dog it had been raised with. I lost touch with the other adopters, so I have no idea what happened to the other adopted pups.
> 
> Listen to what very experienced Pit Bull people will tell you. Shoot, listen to people who are very experienced in other breeds. They will tell you that it is often easy to spot genetic traits in very young puppies.
> 
> They might be babies, but even a baby can be a victim of their biology.
> Sheilah


Without saying your assessment/decision of the pups pts was wrong I do want to say how sad I am for the pups  

But I can say is that those pups, including the 7 month old, could have been managed by experience owners to revert that fate.


----------



## DCluver33

I would suggest to everyone to go check out this site: Pit Bull Chat: A Pet Pit Bull Community 

tons of facts from people who have owned pit bulls for years and have done a ton of research. get the true facts


----------



## chicagojosh

killing a 6 week old puppy...really. what is wrong with you? you should be turned in. it's 6-8 weeks old!!!!!!!!!

find it a home where it can be the only dog if its DA. don't just wipe out baby puppies!!!! for the love of god. please do NOT breed again. you're out of your mind

sounds like that was irresponsible breeding on your part. why breed them and foster them all out anyway? 

im seriously digusted by your post


----------



## chicagojosh

sit said:


> Sorry, guy. You have single-handed made my brain explode. You talk in circles, contradict yourself and then reverse course.
> 
> You know what you know and that is the end.
> Sheilah


 
i haven't said anything contrdictive. let me say again , and again what i belive.

-dogs are individuals
-genetics are influential to a dogs behaviors/drives but genetics DO NOT guarantee anything behavior wise
-DA dogs that are DA for ANY reason CAN be trained not to be

please point out my contradictions, while I soak up what an awful person you are for killing at least 3 6-8 week old puppies.


----------



## valreegrl

DCluver33 said:


> I would suggest to everyone to go check out this site: Pit Bull Chat: A Pet Pit Bull Community
> 
> tons of facts from people who have owned pit bulls for years and have done a ton of research. get the true facts


Who says either side isn't stating "true facts"? 

And that they have not owned or have much knowledge when it comes to this "social class". This is a GSD forum but many of us have other breeds as well


----------



## hunterisgreat

chicagojosh said:


> killing a 6 week old puppy...really. what is wrong with you? you should be turned in. it's 6-8 weeks old!!!!!!!!!
> 
> find it a home where it can be the only dog if its DA. don't just wipe out baby puppies!!!! for the love of god. please do NOT breed again. you're out of your mind
> 
> sounds like that was irresponsible breeding on your part. why breed them and foster them all out anyway?
> 
> im seriously digusted by your post


While its certainly very unpalatable to cull dogs, there are simply not enough homes for the number of dogs, much less homes capable of handling a large aggressive breed (be that a pit, GSD, mal, rott, etc etc)

And he could come and prove me wrong, but I *highly* doubt he bred the dogs


----------



## DCluver33

valreegrl said:


> Who says either side isn't stating "true facts"?
> 
> And that they have not owned or have much knowledge when it comes to this "social class". This is a GSD forum but many of us have other breeds as well


oh good Lord I was just posting a website that everyone can go look at.

and I understand people here have knowledge on other breeds so do I 

but I guess I was wrong in trying to help so I guess I'll just keep my nose out of it.


----------



## valreegrl

DCluver33 said:


> oh good Lord I was just posting a website that everyone can go look at.
> 
> and I understand people here have knowledge on other breeds so do I
> 
> but I guess I was wrong in trying to help so I guess I'll just keep my nose out of it.


I actually said that in jest, but I can see now that it was hard to tell in writing


----------



## hunterisgreat

valreegrl said:


> Who says either side isn't stating "true facts"?
> 
> And that they have not owned or have much knowledge when it comes to this "social class". This is a GSD forum but many of us have other breeds as well


A few mins ago I read a APBT forum where a poll showed almost everyone there wanted to keep the DA and gameness in the dog breed, and that those that want non-fighting quality APBT should get a diff breed


----------



## valreegrl

hunterisgreat said:


> While its certainly very unpalatable to cull dogs, there are simply not enough homes for the number of dogs, much less homes capable of handling a large aggressive breed (be that a pit, GSD, mal, rott, etc etc)
> 
> And he could come and prove me wrong, but I *highly* doubt he bred the dogs


By the sounds of it the pups came into rescue and were in foster, so highly doubt they are the breeder. 

And I can see the reasoning behind their decision especially since rescue/shelters are over-run with "Pit Bulls". However, my personal belief goes against that decision.


----------



## chicagojosh

hunter after all this i think you have excellent thoughts/opinions that are well thought out. and i think we are eye to eye on most of this topic.


----------



## AgileGSD

"The temperament which is considered "correct type" for an American pit bull - like the majority of purpose bred breeds - is not the best choice if your goal is a c_asual_ pet for romps at the local dog park. The pit bull is a working breed and demands much more time, energy, commitment and respect from their owners than a "generic" dog with exhibits little character. 
Having said that, any breed experiences a wide range of temperaments, and there are always a percentage of "generic" pit bulls; lazy, couch potato sorts with no desire to work or play hard. A good rescue or long time breeder can match you with the pit bull that best fits the amount of commitment you wish to give to your pet. Generally speaking, most dog rescue groups gravitate toward "easy" pit bulls, those who do not really display the challenges associated with "breed type". Therefore, a rescue can be a fantastic place to shop for your first American pit bull. 
"Typical" American pit bulls are tough and intelligent animals, historically bred for a willingness to test their mettle against larger and stronger animals and against each other. It is not uncommon for an adult pit bull to be very quarrelsome toward other dogs while being very friendly to humans, and to expect him to be otherwise is unfair to the dog, to yourself and to the community in which you live. Some dog on dog aggression, intelligently handled, is a small price to pay for the attributes of a well bred bulldog." Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


----------



## valreegrl

hunterisgreat said:


> A few mins ago I read a APBT forum where a poll showed almost everyone there wanted to keep the DA and gameness in the dog breed, and that those that want non-fighting quality APBT should get a diff breed


Wow! I guess the same can be said for some owners/breeders/trainers of GSDs as well. Imagine all GSDs only pet quality. 

But, it takes responsibility and I will really only side with breeders of this type making darn sure that THEIR dogs bred STAY in the hands of experienced people. That NONE end up in a shelter some where or in the hands of a breeding idiot. And believe me, there are breeders who keep a close watch on what they put out there so it is possible.


----------



## Lilie

valreegrl said:


> This is true! Small dogs are an entire thread in itself


Nope, not true. I've never owned a small dog that was PA and I've always had one..and I'm old!


----------



## sitstay

chicagojosh said:


> killing a 6 week old puppy...really. what is wrong with you? you should be turned in. it's 6-8 weeks old!!!!!!!!!
> 
> find it a home where it can be the only dog if its DA. don't just wipe out baby puppies!!!! for the love of god. please do NOT breed again. you're out of your mind
> 
> sounds like that was irresponsible breeding on your part. why breed them and foster them all out anyway?
> 
> im seriously digusted by your post


 I was not then, nor am I now, a breeder. I worked for many years as the foster program coordinator for a large, regional humane society. It was my job and my passion to put that mother-less litter of puppies into an experienced foster home and give them a chance at a decent life.

It was my responsibility to do right by the puppies. That included looking at behavior and making a decision about the well being of the litter as a whole, in tandem with breed knowledgeable people whose advice I sought and trusted. It was not easy to do, but it was the right thing to do. Especially when I considered the physical damage that was being done to the less genetically screwed pups in that litter. 

I also needed to make a decision about the well being of the other pets and the people who might have to some day live next door to one of those puppies that I "killed". What if one of those aggressive puppies went to a home with someone who believed that you could love/train/socialize any behavior away? I wasn't willing to take that chance.

Do you have any idea just how many good, responsible homes are available for DA dogs? Very, very few. It is easy to say "find it a home where it can be the only dog if its DA. don't just wipe out baby puppies!!!!", but until you're responsible for and successful at saving them all, don't tell me what I should or shouldn't have done.

I think you owe me an apology for jumping to conclusions like that. I have a ton of PMs that are telling me you are young (perhaps around my son's age) and that I should take your relative inexperience into account when I read what you have to say. 

But I won't hold my breath, since as said before...you know what you know. Right?
Sheilah
ETA: Would you also like apologize for the PM you just sent me? Again, was not the breeder and I really don't think I should burn in h*** for my decision. I was just trying to clean up some idiot's mess, using the tools I had.


----------



## chicagojosh

Oh, I'm sure everyone is PMing you. I doubt it's to complain about me though. they could PM me if they felt like they should.

I'm inexperianced because I believe dogs should be viewed as individuals? I'm inexperianced because I don't think pitbulls come out of the womb looking to kill other dogs?

okay....

apology? haha, yeah right. how about you apologize for not giving those pups a chance? You were supposed to be doing them right. why not seperate the DA one's from the rest of the pack? naw...lets just kill em huh? 

My trainer works with DA dogs and finds them homes ALL THE TIME. sad excuse. My friends dad just took in a DA shepherd. 

still disgusted with you.

anyone who actually did PM her to talk about me, please PM me instead


----------



## chicagojosh

sit said:


> What if one of those aggressive puppies went to a home with someone who believed that you could love/train/socialize any behavior away? I wasn't willing to take that chance.


so again, you don't believe a DA dog can be trained not to be dog aggressive.

then what is my trainer doing EVERY SINGLE DAY?


----------



## martemchik

As sad as it is to hear about puppies being euthanized, it has to happen. Chicagojosh, your trainer probably does one at a time, and I'm guessing in Chicago, so a pretty populated area (I'm from the northwest burbs myself). He trains them, gets as much of the DA out of them, and places one with a home. Think about doing this with 8, and not being an experienced trainer with the time to do it. One dog would take up days of your time, but now how about 8? She isn't the first person I've heard this kind of story about, shelters do this all the time.

The problem with adopting a pit bull puppy is that you just don't know what it will turn into. No matter the amount of socialization and training it can still be pretty DA (it is in the genetics). That's why most people rescue adults, you know what their temperment is like, or go through a very very reputable breeder to get a pit puppy.


----------



## valreegrl

sit said:


> I was not then, nor am I now, a breeder. I worked for many years as the foster program coordinator for a large, regional humane society. It was my job and my passion to put that mother-less litter of puppies into an experienced foster home and give them a chance at a decent life.
> 
> It was my responsibility to do right by the puppies. That included looking at behavior and making a decision about the well being of the litter as a whole, in tandem with breed knowledgeable people whose advice I sought and trusted. It was not easy to do, but it was the right thing to do. Especially when I considered the physical damage that was being done to the less genetically screwed pups in that litter.
> 
> I also needed to make a decision about the well being of the other pets and the people who might have to some day live next door to one of those puppies that I "killed". What if one of those aggressive puppies went to a home with someone who believed that you could love/train/socialize any behavior away? I wasn't willing to take that chance.
> 
> Do you have any idea just how many good, responsible homes are available for DA dogs? Very, very few. It is easy to say "find it a home where it can be the only dog if its DA. don't just wipe out baby puppies!!!!", but until you're responsible for and successful at saving them all, don't tell me what I should or shouldn't have done.
> 
> I think you owe me an apology for jumping to conclusions like that. I have a ton of PMs that are telling me you are young (perhaps around my son's age) and that I should take your relative inexperience into account when I read what you have to say.
> 
> But I won't hold my breath, since as said before...you know what you know. Right?
> Sheilah
> ETA: Would you also like apologize for the PM you just sent me? Again, was not the breeder and I really don't think I should burn in h*** for my decision. I was just trying to clean up some idiot's mess, using the tools I had.


I think you are being harshly criticized for your decision. Shelters are not afforded the same luxuries as every day people, even rescue, as space is VERY limited. And it's true, DA dog home are hard to come by. 

Please ignore the personal bash happening. Opinions are just that, and no need to force them down someone else's throat through bullying.


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## chicagojosh

hello martemchik,

my trainer works with many at a time. some she is fostering along. others are owned by other people. 

at least half of our group class started with her because their dog was aggressive, and our classes are very very peaceful and friendly 99% of the time.

she'll have one DA dog doing a stand/stay over two other DA dogs in down/stays...

yet Sit/Stay says "this behavior cannot be trained out" *scratches head*


----------



## chicagojosh

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/152921-6-week-old-pup-pts.html

hey sit/stay, this person found a rescue for this oh so dangerous 6 week old pit... did you really try that hard?

you didn't seperate the DA pups from the others, you won't give it a chance to be trained, you apparently didn't search too hard for a rescue. still disgusted


----------



## martemchik

I'm not argueing that its possible. But think of the commitment the owners and your trainer have gone through. Each dog has a handler, and then a very experienced person helping. It just can't be done with a litter of puppies. And I just want you to think of it that way rather than attacking someone. I've seen your other posts and you usually have something good to say or ask, and right now it looks like that story struck a nerve. You just have to realize that it happens all the time.

My SO always wanted to rescue a pit bull, now it looks like it won't happen since we have a GSD and don't want two large dogs in the house. But I've always said that it is the only breed that I would adopt only as an adult, never a puppy, for the reason I've stated earlier.


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## sitstay

martemchik said:


> She isn't the first person I've heard this kind of story about, shelters do this all the time.


This was a shelter situation, since I ran the foster program for the shelter where the entire litter of 4 week old pups had been surrendered. Not speaking to you directly, I am using the universal "you" here.

How long do you keep a foster home filled with pups that at that point aren't adoptable? Puppy foster homes are hard to find, especially when you're dealing with large litters. Indeed, I could have totally ignored what the foster parent was telling me in regards to the behavior of some of the puppies. But I agreed with her-there was a problem. I needed to look at the total picture and think about the required full disclosure to potential adopters. Just who would have been attracted to adopting a puppy that had already caused physical harm to littermates? The answer to that question is: the very people who you don't want adopting that kind of pup. 

And in the mean time, I have litters and singletons waiting for foster care. Can't leave them at the shelter, but gee, I now have a group of currently unadoptable pups clogging up one of the few foster homes I can call on for litters. So those puppies waiting for foster care end up euthanized, just so I can "save" puppies that have done physical damage to littermates. 

It stinks that choices come down to details like that. But it is the reality faced by shelters and rescues every single day of the year. Dog/animal aggression is very much a life and death issue, and when you see it in a young puppy as strongly as I have seen it, there is no doubt that there can be a strong genetic link.
Sheilah


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## chicagojosh

martemchik,

you're right, im normally a very positive poster 

this thread is driving me up a wall for things like this...

"pitbulls come out of the womb dog aggressive"

&

sit/stay feeling that killing 6 week old puppies is ok, when she did not seperate DA pup's from non DA pups, did not give them a chance to be worked with, and did not apparently put much effort into finding a home/rescue for them. Warrentswife in the other thread managed to do it...

I got attacked by both RZA dog (the pits /womb person) AND sit/stay as well


----------



## sitstay

chicagojosh said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/152921-6-week-old-pup-pts.html
> 
> hey sit/stay, this person found a rescue for this oh so dangerous 6 week old pit... did you really try that hard?
> 
> you didn't seperate the DA pups from the others, you won't give it a chance to be trained, you apparently didn't search too hard for a rescue. still disgusted


Come back and talk to me when you are dealing with over 17,000 animals a year. Until then stories of one here and one there mean nothing to the big picture as it is seen by shelters and rescues all over the country.

I should also point out that I would have been well within shelter policy to have the whole litter euthanized because of the problems seen in some of the puppies. But, puppy killer that I am, I didn't go that route. I took each pup in the litter as a separate circumstance and looked at that pup's behavior as an individual.
Sheilah


----------



## sitstay

chicagojosh said:


> I got attacked by both RZA dog (the pits /womb person) AND sit/stay as well


I never attacked you, I DISAGREED with you and used my personal experience working in a large animal shelter to explain why I DISAGREED with you.

Go back over every post, and you are the ONLY one doing any attacking in regards to me.

I am still being polite and focused with you. 
Sheilah


----------



## Konotashi

I haven't read through all of these, but it appears (from what I've seen) that people aren't really pointing out that there are individuals in the breed like every other breed, and some are arguing that every pit bull is dog aggressive, period. 

Yeah, pitties are inherently DA. No, not all are. 

GSDs are, by breed definition (for lack of better words) aloof and not necessarily 'outgoing' to strangers. However, you have the oddballs who will body slam and lick new people to death. 

There are the variants in every breed, it's no different for pit bulls.


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## sitstay

chicagojosh said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/152921-6-week-old-pup-pts.html
> 
> hey sit/stay, this person found a rescue for this oh so dangerous 6 week old pit... did you really try that hard?


The pups I dealt with were not euthanized because they were Pit Bull puppies. I had sent them to a foster home, knowing full well what breed they were. 

They were euthanized because some of them were trying to kill their littermates. 

How can you use the above referenced example as proof that I am a heartless puppy killer? 
Sheilah


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## chicagojosh

sit said:


> I have a ton of PMs that are telling me you are young (perhaps around my son's age) and that I should take your relative inexperience into account when I read what you have to say.





sit said:


> Well, I guess you haven't seen many litter of puppies, have you?


 
both of those are attacks at my knowledge/ experiance with dogs...

no one has PM'd me by the way...


----------



## Chowgal

I haven't read through the entire thread, but seeing as I have 11 years experience with APBTs. These dogs can be WONDERFUL family pets, just as ANY other properly raised dog. But then again, I've seen a very well bred pittie and a poorly bred pittie grow up in the same home and both turn out completely different. It really comes down to breeding. If the parents and grandparents were aggressive, then that dog will most likely be aggressive. And if the parents and grandparents aren't aggressive, then the pups most likely won't be aggressive. 
The 2 pitties I mentioned previously, Scooby-Doo(the well-bred male)frequently had playdates with my male miniature poodle I had at the time, and yet the female(poorly bred) Scooby-Dee wanted to KILL any animals she saw and she had to be muzzled whenever she was taken out of the house for liability reasons. 

But then a few years ago my mom and I were driving down a busy road and there was a white female pitbull standing in the middle of the road shaking. So, we pulled over and I hopped out of the truck and she came wiggling up to me as friendly as could be, but when we got her to the vet to check for a microchip she turned into Cujo over seeing the animals in the waiting room(we hadn't gone inside, we were standing by the truck in the parking lot). So we knew at that point she COULD NOT be around other animals(which is why she was rehomed as an ONLY dog, where she's spoiled). 

And then there's my best friend's pittie that he rescued. She wasn't even a year old when he rescued her and he was a little apprehensive introducing her to his 16 y/o GSD mix but she is an absolute ANGEL with other animals! She loves anyone and everyone. ~lol~ 


But back to your situation... I would advise NOT putting your dog and your buddy's dog around eachother again. And aggressive dog(no matter the breed) can do damage, weather it's muzzled or not. So PLEASE do the smart thing for your dog and NOT submit him to that risk again. And advise your friend to work with a trainer to see if there's ANYTHING that can be done to control his pitbulls aggression issues beyond JUST a muzzle.


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## chicagojosh

sit said:


> The pups I dealt with were not euthanized because they were Pit Bull puppies. I had sent them to a foster home, knowing full well what breed they were.
> 
> They were euthanized because some of them were trying to kill their littermates.
> 
> How can you use the above referenced example as proof that I am a heartless puppy killer?
> Sheilah


ONCE AGAIN...

-you did not even try to seperate the DA pups from the others, instead deemed it acceptable to kill them
-you did not feel the dogs deserved a chance at being trained, becuase hey, you also believe a DA dog can't be managed/trained
-you couldn't apprarently even find a home for even 1 of the DA pups, yet my trainer, my friend, others on this site rescue/rehome DA dogs all the time


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## Lilie

Chicagojosh - I'm kinda liking this side of you....:wub:


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## chicagojosh

Chowgal said:


> (which is why she was rehomed as an ONLY dog, where she's spoiled). .


ah, another case of a rehomed DA dog....

i rest my case


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Here is the Pit Bull rescue code of ethics. 
http://www.ourpack.org/files/codeofethics.pdf
These people know their breed better than most. Good read.

People who actually DO rescue, and do it correctly, understand that there are limits to what can be done. 

It is very easy to sit back and judge. Not so easy to actively do.

For the OP - obviously no, you don't use your puppy as the test puppy to help someone train (or not) their dog.


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## chicagojosh

Lilie said:


> Chicagojosh - I'm kinda liking this side of you....


 
LOL oh god lillie.. i don't like this side of me..it only comes out at the finest moments


----------



## sitstay

Chowgal said:


> The 2 pitties I mentioned previously, Scooby-Doo(the well-bred male)frequently had playdates with my male miniature poodle I had at the time,


One of the best dogs around other animals I have EVER dealt with was an adult male Pit Bull named Petey (for obvious reasons). During the several months he fostered in my home he was wonderful with everything from other dogs to little kittens. And he was an agility super star.
Sheilah


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## RubyTuesday

It's regrettable that so many people blithely dump *their* canine responsibilites on rescues & shelters. Those who casually dump their responsibilities are the ones that should make us angy, not the over worked, under appreciated & overwhelmed shelter & rescue people forced to make dificult & unpopular decisions.

Sheilah, kudos for all your work picking up where others dropped off.


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## Lilie

chicagojosh said:


> LOL oh god lillie.. i don't like this side of me..it only comes out at the finest moments


 
Oh admit it, some guys just can't fight sexy....


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## chicagojosh

it's been fun. i've gotta go now though. i'm off to pet some pitties


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## chicagojosh

Lilie said:


> Oh admit it, some guys just can't fight sexy....


LOL, you should see me on the streets of chicago! have a good weekend


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## valreegrl

Unfortunately most rescues are not able/have the knowledge/funds to rehabilitate so often times only "ambassadors of the breed" as put by the guidelines link given are pulled from shelters. Their DA dogs are few and far between meaning they are usually not well versed in if/how DA can be trained out, based on genetics or environment.

Same said for shelters as they are held by space and the "hard to adopt" cases are not so fortunate. And who can blame them, they cannot put all their resources into one dog when it means lots of others will reap the effects. So again, they are not well versed in DA rehabilitation either. 
We cannot go by rescue standards when discussing the breed profile. 

With that said, this thread has gone from a heated but civil discussion with parties taking into consideration the opposing side to basically bullying other's actions without the facts.


----------



## DJEtzel

chicagojosh said:


> so DJETZEL...do you agree or disagree with: "pitbulls come out of the womb DA?"
> 
> im trying to follow all these posts, but this thread is very active
> 
> i originally objected to that post by RVAdog. i still feel my point that you just quoted validates the fact that just because a dogs parents are bred to be DA it does not make every puppy they have DA. again, dogs are individuals.
> 
> if he inherited it is the wording you used. So same goes for pits...IF they inherited the DA, and I feel even if they did it can be trained out. Again, based on things i've seen with my own eyes and testimonials from those in my OB class who once had DA dogs that they worked with and are no longer DA


And once again, I never said that ALL pit bulls are aggressive. The breed has the genes in it to be genetically dog aggressive though. That is a fact. Some dogs will get that gene, and some won't, just as you may get your mom's blue eyes, but your brother may not. Those that DO inherit the DOG AGGRESIVE GENE, will come out of the womb "aggressive". By this I mean that the dog will have always been instilled to be aggressive, whether he/she is aggressive towards other dogs at 6 weeks or 2 years. He was born to be aggressive. LITERALLY. And IME, this CANNOT be trained out of them, no matter how hard you try. You are basing your ideas/opinions on a few training classes and some friends? I've worked at two huge shelters and owned pit bulls all my life. I have seen THOUSANDS of pit bulls over the years and have SO much experience with them it is not even funny. 



codmaster said:


> No!
> 
> You said it was *"in their genes"!* Or maybe you forgot you said that?
> 
> Now you change your tune to "not every single pit bull will be DA" - does that mean that these DON'T have it "in their genes" ?
> 
> So now maybe you could tell everyone here, just how many pits really and trully "have DA in their genes"? 10%, 20%, 30% or what?
> 
> Would this number of Pits who really do "have DA in their genes" be greater than the number of GSD's or Airdales or Pomeranians who are DA?


Yes, there are pit bulls that are dog aggressive because it is in their genes- they are genetically aggressive. Not once did I say EVERY pit bull was genetically dog aggressive. This is obviously not true. 

And yes, I believe the number of pits that have DA in their genes is definitely greater than the number of other dogs that are DA for the fun of it.



codmaster said:


> Never wanted to put a halo on pits or GSD's or any other breed!
> 
> I simply pointed out that PB's are not genetically DA - most of them today are MANY generations removed from the pit and dog fighting. Many pits are VERY friendly dogs - some are not, either to people or to other dogs. Sounds sort of like GSD's, doesn't it!


Uhm, no they aren't. About 90% of the pit bulls I've had the pleasure of meeting are no more than 2 generations removed, if that. The shelters are OVERRUN with pit bulls (all over the country) that came from fighting homes and abusing homes after being bought from fighting rings. The Pit Bull breeds are nothing like a GSD.




chicagojosh said:


> of course...possibly. i've never denied genetics can be passed along/play a role etc. but it's the blanket statements i disagree with. not to mention how many dachsunds out there this day and age are actually trained/bred to hunt? i've NEVER heard of one. so that behavior I feel is really not bred in dachsunds of the 2000's


You didn't know that Dachsund's even WERE hunters, of course you haven't heard of one doing it.  That obviously plays no merit in this conversation.



chicagojosh said:


> killing a 6 week old puppy...really. what is wrong with you? you should be turned in. it's 6-8 weeks old!!!!!!!!!
> 
> find it a home where it can be the only dog if its DA. don't just wipe out baby puppies!!!! for the love of god. please do NOT breed again. you're out of your mind
> 
> sounds like that was irresponsible breeding on your part. why breed them and foster them all out anyway?
> 
> im seriously digusted by your post


You don't have any idea how rescue works. At 6-8 weeks old (like I already posted) we recently had a litter come in that also tried killing their entire litter. You have no idea how hard it is to place that kind of liability into the hands of dog owners. How would you feel if an 8 week old puppy that already killed it's sister was adopted out to your neighbor because he didn't have a dog? _I _wouldn't want that dog living next door, and yes, sometimes you can find GREAT responsible homes for these dogs. BUT, working in rescue, you need to realize that you CAN'T save them all and choose the ones that have a chance at a better life. 



chicagojosh said:


> apology? haha, yeah right. how about you apologize for not giving those pups a chance? You were supposed to be doing them right. why not seperate the DA one's from the rest of the pack? naw...lets just kill em huh?
> 
> My trainer works with DA dogs and finds them homes ALL THE TIME. sad excuse. My friends dad just took in a DA shepherd.


Your trainer doesn't work with thousands of dogs a year without pay. You need to realize the difference. The pups GOT a chance. They got taken into the rescue and put into foster homes. You need to realize the liability an 8 week old puppy killing another carries. SERIOUSLY. 



chicagojosh said:


> so again, you don't believe a DA dog can be trained not to be dog aggressive.
> 
> then what is my trainer doing EVERY SINGLE DAY?


Your trainer is either managing genetically DA dogs, or he is training dogs that are Dog Agressive for other reasons. If the dog were DA because of genetics, he would not be "curing" them. 



chicagojosh said:


> ONCE AGAIN...
> 
> -you did not even try to seperate the DA pups from the others, instead deemed it acceptable to kill them
> -you did not feel the dogs deserved a chance at being trained, becuase hey, you also believe a DA dog can't be managed/trained
> -you couldn't apprarently even find a home for even 1 of the DA pups, yet my trainer, my friend, others on this site rescue/rehome DA dogs all the time


How do you know that she didn't seperate them, exactly? 

And it's not that she COULDN'T find homes (I'm assuming here, correct me if you're wrong Sit,Stay) it's that she couldn't afford the liability of THESE dogs going into homes where they may get loose and maim or kill another dog. In rescue, you have to make tough decisions sometimes. You can't always adopt out the dog that bites the hand that feeds him around his food or the puppies that are so aggressive at 8 weeks that they can't be with another dog. Until you see this first hand though, you'll never truely understand.


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> And once again, I never said that ALL pit bulls are aggressive. The breed has the genes in it to be genetically dog aggressive though. That is a fact. Some dogs will get that gene, and some won't, just as you may get your mom's blue eyes, but your brother may not. Those that DO inherit the DOG AGGRESIVE GENE, will come out of the womb "aggressive". By this I mean that the dog will have always been instilled to be aggressive, whether he/she is aggressive towards other dogs at 6 weeks or 2 years. He was born to be aggressive. LITERALLY. And IME, this CANNOT be trained out of them, no matter how hard you try. You are basing your ideas/opinions on a few training classes and some friends? I've worked at two huge shelters and owned pit bulls all my life. I have seen THOUSANDS of pit bulls over the years and have SO much experience with them it is not even funny.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there are pit bulls that are dog aggressive because it is in their genes- they are genetically aggressive. Not once did I say EVERY pit bull was genetically dog aggressive. This is obviously not true.
> 
> And yes, I believe the number of pits that have DA in their genes is definitely greater than the number of other dogs that are DA for the fun of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm, no they aren't. About 90% of the pit bulls I've had the pleasure of meeting are no more than 2 generations removed, if that. The shelters are OVERRUN with pit bulls (all over the country) that came from fighting homes and abusing homes after being bought from fighting rings. The Pit Bull breeds are nothing like a GSD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't know that Dachsund's even WERE hunters, of course you haven't heard of one doing it.  That obviously plays no merit in this conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have any idea how rescue works. At 6-8 weeks old (like I already posted) we recently had a litter come in that also tried killing their entire litter. You have no idea how hard it is to place that kind of liability into the hands of dog owners. How would you feel if an 8 week old puppy that already killed it's sister was adopted out to your neighbor because he didn't have a dog? _I _wouldn't want that dog living next door, and yes, sometimes you can find GREAT responsible homes for these dogs. BUT, working in rescue, you need to realize that you CAN'T save them all and choose the ones that have a chance at a better life.
> 
> 
> 
> Your trainer doesn't work with thousands of dogs a year without pay. You need to realize the difference. The pups GOT a chance. They got taken into the rescue and put into foster homes. You need to realize the liability an 8 week old puppy killing another carries. SERIOUSLY.
> 
> 
> 
> Your trainer is either managing genetically DA dogs, or he is training dogs that are Dog Agressive for other reasons. If the dog were DA because of genetics, he would not be "curing" them.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that she didn't seperate them, exactly?
> 
> And it's not that she COULDN'T find homes (I'm assuming here, correct me if you're wrong Sit,Stay) it's that she couldn't afford the liability of THESE dogs going into homes where they may get loose and maim or kill another dog. In rescue, you have to make tough decisions sometimes. You can't always adopt out the dog that bites the hand that feeds him around his food or the puppies that are so aggressive at 8 weeks that they can't be with another dog. Until you see this first hand though, you'll never truely understand.


 
You said "pit bulls" are genetically DA. This statment indicates all pits are this way. You never did specify what percent of them you believe are this way.

Want to indicate what percentage of pits are born DA at this time? In your learned opinion of course. (I doubt if you will or can answer this but maybe you will).

Do you really think that a 6-8 week old puppy is DA to the point of killing it's littermates?

And that such a young puppy could not be raised to be a loving trustworthy dog????

And one last thing as I am much too busy right now to answer the rest of your somewhat interesting assertions above.

Do you think that maybe your view of pits might be slightly impacted by the fact that you seem to baseing all that you believe that you know about them from the ones that you see in rescue situations (or so it seems to me from what you have said)?

Think your opinion of GSD's would be influenced or changed if the only GSD's that you ever saw were those in resuce situations?

Something to think about perhaps!!!!!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think that someone posted a bully breed web forum and I think those are great questions to ask the bully people!


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> You said "pit bulls" are genetically DA. This statment indicates all pits are this way. You never did specify what percent of them you believe are this way.
> 
> Want to indicate what percentage of pits are born DA at this time? In your learned opinion of course. (I doubt if you will or can answer this but maybe you will).
> 
> Do you really think that a 6-8 week old puppy is DA to the point of killing it's littermates?
> 
> And that such a young puppy could not be raised to be a loving trustworthy dog????
> 
> And one last thing as I am much too busy right now to answer the rest of your somewhat interesting assertions above.
> 
> Do you think that maybe your view of pits might be slightly impacted by the fact that you seem to baseing all that you believe that you know about them from the ones that you see in rescue situations (or so it seems to me from what you have said)?
> 
> Think your opinion of GSD's would be influenced or changed if the only GSD's that you ever saw were those in resuce situations?
> 
> Something to think about perhaps!!!!!


Can you quote where I said plainly that pit bulls are genetically DA? Because if I said it that way I misspoke, it is obvious that they are not all DA, only some inherit those genes. And I have no way to know what percentage of DA pit bulls may be genetically impaired. Why does that matter?

And yes, I KNOW a 6-8 week old puppy can be DA to the point of killing it's littermates. We had very close calls and ER visits to the litter of puppies I was talking about because they MAIMED each other one evening and overnight. It was a horrific mess. 

I ABSOLUTELY feel that such a dog could be raised to be a loving trustworthy dog (with people). I don't think they should ever be trusted 100% with other dogs, but I know there are certain dogs that they MAY get along with after very slow introductions and great personality matching. The fact is though, that rescues cannot decide which deadly puppy they are going to let go to a home that may or may not keep them from harming another dog. If someone FOUND a puppy like this on the street and was experience and raised it I have no doubt it'd be great, but rescues just do not have the resources to deal with this type of thing and do not have the applicants needed to place these dogs. 

I think that the dogs I have seen in rescue could be what makes me so passionate about Pit Bulls, but I was raised with them and have a lot of friends/family with them as well which has overall influenced me to know more about them. I see a lot of GSDs in rescue as well and I don't think my view is skewed of them, either.  I see less GSDs outside of rescue than I do in it, and I see about an equal about of pits on both sides. I've actually only met a handful of GSDs outside of rescue and all but one was mean. And that was Sigurd.


----------



## DCluver33

Like I posted before go look at Pit Bull Chat: A Pet Pit Bull Community and ask questions there they will be able to answer all your questions and give you a ton of information about all the "pit bull" breeds. 

*DISCLAIMER* not saying that no one here knows anything about "pit bulls"


----------



## codmaster

"it is obvious that they are not all DA, only some inherit those genes. And I have no way to know what percentage of DA pit bulls may be genetically impaired. Why does that matter?"

So at least some pits are not genetically DA, then? It matters to a lot of people when you malign a fine breed like this, I would guess, with no facts to back it up just speculation.

Do you claim that ANY other breed also has DA being genetically passed between generations or is it just the Am pit bull terrier? Wouldn't any other breed ever bred for fighting have the same gene(s)?

BTW, if it were only a very small % of pits that have the gene, wouldn't that help to totally extinguish it over time as these particular dogs wouldn't breed together?

Also, is the DA gene a recessive or dominant gene? And is it a single gene inheritance or multi gene based? Or do you know anything about it?


----------



## DJEtzel

I am not speculating about a thing. I don't understand why those with no experience think this is all speculation. Do you know what perecent of the population have the same eye color as you?  

I never said only the american pit bull terrier had genetically inherited DA. I used the term pit bull, which engulfs dozens of breeds. Many of whom were bred into fighting game and will have genetically inherited DA pop up from time to time, I'm sure, but I am not familiar with every breed.

And once again, what's to say only a small percentage of pits have the gene? The majority of pits in the country are from game stock, so they are continuously being bred together and are concentrating their fighting genes.


----------



## blehmannwa

I have a wonderful APBT named Felony. (Her registered name was Misdemeanor.) She's my heart dog. She's great at home and we have only had one incident of fighting but it was called for. She attacked a dog that was attacking our old GSD. I did a lot of foster work for PBRC. Fel and I found homes for five pit pups.

I never take her to a dog park. I don't allow leashed greetings. I have a 100% (so far) "leave it" command that we use when she even sees another dog on our walks. We cross to the other side of the street if I see a dog that I even suspect will react to her. She turns into a frothing bit of nasty if another dog looks at her funny. It's a lot of management and never putting her into a situation that will trigger aggression. In order to be a good pit-bull owner, I have to acknowledge that my beloved, funny companion that sleeps in my bed has the potential to be dangerous. I socialized her and even used her as a demo dog but at about two years old she became unpredictable when leashed. Not all dogs get the freeze and Elvis lip, but enough did to make me very aware that Fel had DA tendencies.
I will never leave her unattended with my 12 week old male pup, ever. She has never displayed aggressiveness to a pup and is far more tolerant of males than she is of females but better safe than sorry. My neighbor has two female pits that are on a strict crate and rotate schedule but still end up at the vets for stitches a couple of times a year. I could not stand that. Her dogs got along great--until one day they didn't.

Felony has lymphoma so I monitor her very closely for mood changes. She's on steroids so she is hungry all the time--which creates some tension with the puppy's meal schedule. Thank goodness I don't need to be concerned about her weight.
Frankly, I'm not sure that I'll ever have another pit. Part of it is that my relationship with Feldog is closer than I've experienced with my other much loved dogs but part of it is that it is exhausting to manage her. I'm tired of explaining what she is and dealing with people and their opinions. BTW, I've seen the kind of aggression in very young pups that DJEtzel describes and I know the heartbreaking decisions that rescuers have to make. Pit bulls are great dogs but one has to be very realistic about their past and acknowledge that they need special handling. Even if a non aggressive pit is involved in any kind of fight, most people will blame the pit. Liability is a very real concern when placing pit bulls.


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> I am not speculating about a thing. I don't understand why those with no experience think this is all speculation. Do you know what perecent of the population have the same eye color as you?
> 
> I never said only the american pit bull terrier had genetically inherited DA. I used the term pit bull, which engulfs dozens of breeds. Many of whom were bred into fighting game and will have genetically inherited DA pop up from time to time, I'm sure, but I am not familiar with every breed.
> 
> And once again, what's to say only a small percentage of pits have the gene? The majority of pits in the country are from game stock, so they are continuously being bred together and are concentrating their fighting genes.


Not to worry - I fully understand why you don't want to answer any questions about your belief about pits. Never let the lack of facts cloud your beliefs.

But just in case, I will try again. 

You said - "The majority of pits in the country are from game stock". What do you mean by *majority* (51% or 90% or some other number)?

What is "game stock"? I assume that you mean an actual fighting dog who has been in the dog fighting ring? Is that true or do you have your own definition for this term?

And do you mean that you believe that the majority of pure bred AM Pit Bull Terriers are actual fighting dogs? Or maybe just that their parents are fighting dogs? 

And just to be clear - when you say "pit bull", what actual AKC breed (s) are you really referring to in your posts above in this thread?


----------



## sitstay

blehmannwa said:


> Not all dogs get the freeze and Elvis lip,


I love the "Elvis lip" description! I might have to start calling Tanner "Elvis", since that is his preferred method of initial communication to tell other dogs to back off.
Sheilah


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> Not to worry - I fully understand why you don't want to answer any questions about your belief about pits. Never let the lack of facts cloud your beliefs.
> 
> But just in case, I will try again.
> 
> You said - "The majority of pits in the country are from game stock". What do you mean by *majority* (51% or 90% or some other number)?
> 
> What is "game stock"? I assume that you mean an actual fighting dog who has been in the dog fighting ring? Is that true or do you have your own definition for this term?
> 
> And do you mean that you believe that the majority of pure bred AM Pit Bull Terriers are actual fighting dogs? Or maybe just that their parents are fighting dogs?
> 
> And just to be clear - when you say "pit bull", what actual AKC breed (s) are you really referring to in your posts above in this thread?


_I _would guess that somewhere between 60 and 70 percent are from game stock- which I consider dogs who are 3 or less generations removed from dogs that are actually involved in fighting. I know in the pit bull community game stock is probably veiwed a little differently, but this is my take on it. The reason I include a few generations down is because many of these dogs are on site being bred and bred and bred, sold and bred some more. You can find numerous generations of dogs from a ring raid.

Like I said ^ I believe that the majority of pit bulls (NOT american pit bull terriers) are 3 or less generations removed from a dog that fought in a ring. 

I'm not referring many AKC breeds at all. I'm _mostly_ referring to American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and American Bulldogs, while knowing that sometimes breeds such as the Cane Corso, Presa Canario, Patterdale, and varios Mastiffs may be bred with the common fighting dogs to produce different types. 
(only three of which are AKC breeds)


----------



## valreegrl

Wow, can't believe this thread is still going  

Leaving alone the "generations removed" comments as I believe that no way can you come to that conclusion dealing with strays in shelter environments. And that seems to be where you are getting a lot of your conclusions. And if you do know the background of these strays then you are way ahead of the rest of us, and please tell me how you do it. 

I do want to toss out a few examples to chew on.....

1.) Multi-dog household, 2 Mastiff-Pit mixes, 1 Pit-Boxer mix and 1 Am Staff. All were DA. All received rehabilitation and ALL live cohesively in one household without issue. FYI: Not something a "normal" household could handle by any means, but is successful. 

2.) Hate to do this, but how about the few Michael Vick dogs now certified therapy dogs. (And believe me, that hurt to toss out there as I hate to give him ANY press!) 

I am, and will always be, a firm believer that DA is environmental. It is a learned behavior just like anything else. Dogs are not born reactive, dogs are not born with tracking skills, etc. If it wasn't, why do we have bait dogs. They "teach" dog fighting, they don't come out of the womb ready for the pit. 

And one last thing, lets address the dog park issue and the comments that "Pit Bulls" are the cause of the majority of fights. 
I do believe this to be true in lots of instances, but it has nothing to do with DA. "Pit Bulls" are very intense by nature. They have an intense stare that other breeds read as aggression. It usually sets off the fight, I would say the majority of the time. 
Heck, yesterday my 6 year old daughter watched a reactive dog private and could read this. She knew EXACTLY when to diffuse to the point of sub-consciously reacting with an "Ahhhh!" at the moment the stare was about to escalate as the other dog, a Shepherd, misread the language the "pitty" was offering and froze. 

It isn't the dog, it's the people.

Additionally: The reactive "Pitty" was training for tracking and was jumped by 3 Shepherds. Environment caused her reactive behavior and is by no means DA. But this same dog turning up in a shelter would most definitely be deemed DA since her background would have never been disclosed. Another example why shelter dogs are not a good study in this conversation.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

blehmannwa said:


> I have a wonderful APBT named Felony. (Her registered name was Misdemeanor.) She's my heart dog. She's great at home and we have only had one incident of fighting but it was called for. She attacked a dog that was attacking our old GSD. I did a lot of foster work for PBRC. Fel and I found homes for five pit pups.
> 
> I never take her to a dog park. I don't allow leashed greetings. I have a 100% (so far) "leave it" command that we use when she even sees another dog on our walks. We cross to the other side of the street if I see a dog that I even suspect will react to her. She turns into a frothing bit of nasty if another dog looks at her funny. It's a lot of management and never putting her into a situation that will trigger aggression. In order to be a good pit-bull owner, I have to acknowledge that my beloved, funny companion that sleeps in my bed has the potential to be dangerous. I socialized her and even used her as a demo dog but at about two years old she became unpredictable when leashed. Not all dogs get the freeze and Elvis lip, but enough did to make me very aware that Fel had DA tendencies.
> I will never leave her unattended with my 12 week old male pup, ever. She has never displayed aggressiveness to a pup and is far more tolerant of males than she is of females but better safe than sorry. My neighbor has two female pits that are on a strict crate and rotate schedule but still end up at the vets for stitches a couple of times a year. I could not stand that. Her dogs got along great--until one day they didn't.
> 
> Felony has lymphoma so I monitor her very closely for mood changes. She's on steroids so she is hungry all the time--which creates some tension with the puppy's meal schedule. Thank goodness I don't need to be concerned about her weight.
> Frankly, I'm not sure that I'll ever have another pit. Part of it is that my relationship with Feldog is closer than I've experienced with my other much loved dogs but part of it is that it is exhausting to manage her. I'm tired of explaining what she is and dealing with people and their opinions. BTW, I've seen the kind of aggression in very young pups that DJEtzel describes and I know the heartbreaking decisions that rescuers have to make. Pit bulls are great dogs but one has to be very realistic about their past and acknowledge that they need special handling. Even if a non aggressive pit is involved in any kind of fight, most people will blame the pit. Liability is a very real concern when placing pit bulls.


Did anyone other than sit, stay and myself read this?!?!? 

It is not based on belief but fact. 

Like those websites that dcluver kept trying to get people to read.


----------



## valreegrl

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Did anyone other than sit, stay and myself read this?!?!?
> 
> It is not based on belief but fact.
> 
> Like those websites that dcluver kept trying to get people to read.


I read it 
And it is fact, and commend the owner for proper management and training of the dog. 
But, it isn't a conclusion to what is being discussed here.....that APBT and their perceived counterparts are born DA and always will be as opposed to DA is environmental.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

They were bred to be that way. Just like in any litter of dogs, there will be some more game, and some not so much. 

How do you think you get them to fight?

You could put two...say dogs that are supposed to be pack dogs, and I could be making a mistake here but Beagles - and work and work and work at making them dog aggressive and it would take FOREVER if it worked at all. Because they need to cooperate as a pack. (again, I could be wrong - but just have seen a Beagle rescue with their 30 dogs all playing together in the yard)

Yet - you see at AKC shows them sparring their terriers in the ring! Because they are supposed to bristle and sharpen up at this. And if they don't (and not just bully terriers) they consider it a breed fault. 

We breed dogs to herd, to hunt, to sit in a lap...we breed dogs to fight other dogs. 

Go on one of those forums posted earlier and ask them. Then link back here.


----------



## valreegrl

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> They were bred to be that way. Just like in any litter of dogs, there will be some more game, and some not so much.
> 
> How do you think you get them to fight?
> 
> You could put two...say dogs that are supposed to be pack dogs, and I could be making a mistake here but Beagles - and work and work and work at making them dog aggressive and it would take FOREVER if it worked at all. Because they need to cooperate as a pack. (again, I could be wrong - but just have seen a Beagle rescue with their 30 dogs all playing together in the yard)
> 
> Yet - you see at AKC shows them sparring their terriers in the ring! Because they are supposed to bristle and sharpen up at this. And if they don't (and not just bully terriers) they consider it a breed fault.
> 
> We breed dogs to herd, to hunt, to sit in a lap...we breed dogs to fight other dogs.
> 
> Go on one of those forums posted earlier and ask them. Then link back here.


Yes, but that trait needs to be "nurtured".


----------



## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> Yes, but that trait needs to be "nurtured".


What is your proof that it needs to be nurtured?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

valreegrl said:


> Yes, but that trait needs to be "nurtured".


But it is there. That is how you can nurture it.


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## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> What is your proof that it needs to be nurtured?


Because they (Pitties/Mastiff's as you brought up) are not born DA  

In that example, showing sparring as a natural trait for APBTs. Do you think they never nurtured that trait, that they came out of the womb sparring ready for the AKC ring.

Just like anything else, our dogs have natural abilities, but they will never show unless they were nurtured, or trained. Same with DA. 

Unfortunately, DA is very often mislabeled by well-meaning people who misread dog language. Often times these dogs are showing all the classic signs of fear such as turning of the head, leg lifts, licking of the lips, teeth chattering, etc. They see a "Pit Bull" teeth chattering/lip-licking in the shelter and conclude aggression.


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## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> Because they (Pitties/Mastiff's as you brought up) are not born DA
> 
> In that example, showing sparring as a natural trait for APBTs. Do you think they never nurtured that trait, that they came out of the womb sparring ready for the AKC ring.
> 
> Just like anything else, our dogs have natural abilities, but they will never show unless they were nurtured, or trained. Same with DA.
> 
> Unfortunately, DA is very often mislabeled by well-meaning people who misread dog language. Often times these dogs are showing all the classic signs of fear such as turning of the head, leg lifts, licking of the lips, teeth chattering, etc. They see a "Pit Bull" teeth chattering/lip-licking in the shelter and conclude aggression.


Then how do you explain 6-8 week old puppies trying to kill littermates? Did my shelter nuture them to do that?


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> What is your proof that it needs to be nurtured?


So many dog friendly "pit bulls", perhaps?

And how many GSD's talked about in this forun are also DA - is that in their genes as well to be DA? Or is that nutured?

Some folks say that their GSD's aggression problem started when they were attacked at the dog park. Are you suggesting that the dog would have become DA without the attack anyway because "it was in their genes"?


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> So many dog friendly "pit bulls", perhaps?
> 
> And how many GSD's talked about in this forun are also DA - is that in their genes as well to be DA? Or is that nutured?
> 
> Some folks say that their GSD's aggression problem started when they were attacked at the dog park. Are you suggesting that the dog would have become DA without the attack anyway because "it was in their genes"?


I'm not talking about german shepherds, Codmaster. And anecdotes of dog friendly pit bulls does not add any proof to my question.


----------



## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> Then how do you explain 6-8 week old puppies trying to kill littermates? Did my shelter nuture them to do that?


I truly don't feel that they were "trying to kill littermates", sadly. 

Shelters are run on a very short budget as well as volunteers. They cannot be held to the same standards when making assessments of behavior as professionals. If they were, rescues would not be necessary. 

The problem surrounding this is that shelters had become over-run with "Pit Bulls" and mixes VERY quickly. They did not understand the breed, how to handle them, their particular behaviors, etc. Only recently are we aware, through countless studies, and learning from our mistakes. Unfortunately, not everyone is on-board yet which is why "Pit Bull" advocacy groups are coming out and making a stand. 

Here is an example of how ignorance spirals, which is why I am proactively trying to get my point across as to be open to change......
A local municipality had a dog-dog case involving a Pit-Shar Pei mix and a Pomeranian. Of course you can see where this is going......the Pit mix was leashed, the Pom not. Pom ran up to Pit, Pit grabbed Pom and end of story. Now, this municipality is pushing muzzle law for all Pits and Pit-mixes. Advocates fought (us included) as to how they were going to pay to uphold/who was going to deem what is/is not a "Pit mix", etc. So they are now amending the law for ANY dog over 50 pounds to be muzzled in public. And yes, that means YOURS and MY Shepherds! 
Now tell me, a well-balanced dog suddenly needing to be muzzled by a person who doesn't understand how to train a muzzle is going to come out the other side okay? NOPE....what we will end up with is lots of frustrated dogs who NOW have the perpetuity towards dog-dog aggression as most of their "leaders" of language are now covered.

My point is, if you believe/continue to push without open to change, right in your understanding that ALL "Pit Bulls" are genetically predisposed to DA and it's only a matter of time until it is shown, then where does that leave the breed? Misunderstood by ignorant individuals pushing for breed bans all across the nation leaving the laws open to ban other breeds, such as our beloved Shepherds. They tried before in municipalities long ago when Shepherds were thought to be "born PA". See what I am getting at?


----------



## DJEtzel

valreegrl said:


> I truly don't feel that they were "trying to kill littermates", sadly.


But they were. So how do you explain it? I work here, we have a LARGE budget, and there is a trainer/behavioralist on staff. We all know a LOT about pit bulls and aggression in general. These puppies were maiming each other for no reason other than to be aggressive. It didn't matter if they were kept together in a group, paired off, or put with a puppy from another litter of another breed, they were harming dogs.

eta; once again, as I've said NUMEROUS times throughout this thread, I never said that all pit bulls were genetically DA. I said they all have the propensity to be DA as they all came from lines that fought. It is in the breed's genes.

Also, it doesn't matter if officials think these dogs are or aren't genetically DA. Some are and no one can change that. If they want to ban them because of it then they're going to. Trying to act like it isn't true isn't going to save them.


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> I'm not talking about german shepherds, Codmaster. And anecdotes of dog friendly pit bulls does not add any proof to my question.


Don't blame you for not wanting to talk about GSD's or any other breed for that matter - kind of destroys your entire diatribe about pit bulls (whatever you mean by the term pit bull, of course), doesn't it?

But just in case you do want to try to answer a question some time, is DA also "in the genes" of GSD's or other breeds or only in pit bulls?

Or is it "nurtured" in other breeds, but only inherited in pits? Or maybe both in pits?

Oh yea, is DA also "in the genes" of a pit mix or is it only in pure bred pits? 

Before you answer please consider that this may be influenced by whether the genes for DA (in your opinion) are recessive or dominant as well as whether DA is inherited (in your theory) by a single gene or if is a multi-gene inheritance.

Can you see that your theory really does raise a lot of questions? I am sure you could answer all of them rationally and convincingly if you would only take the time to inform all of us.

I wish you would also enlighten us about DA in the genes of GSD's as maybe I would feel a lot better about the sometimes DA of my own GSD and also that of a friend's GSD too. I wouldn't blame myself for it then, if I can say "it was just in his genes".


----------



## valreegrl

DJEtzel said:


> But they were. So how do you explain it? I work here, we have a LARGE budget, and there is a trainer/behavioralist on staff. We all know a LOT about pit bulls and aggression in general. These puppies were maiming each other for no reason other than to be aggressive. It didn't matter if they were kept together in a group, paired off, or put with a puppy from another litter of another breed, they were harming dogs.
> 
> eta; once again, as I've said NUMEROUS times throughout this thread, I never said that all pit bulls were genetically DA. I said they all have the propensity to be DA as they all came from lines that fought. It is in the breed's genes.
> 
> Also, it doesn't matter if officials think these dogs are or aren't genetically DA. Some are and no one can change that. If they want to ban them because of it then they're going to. Trying to act like it isn't true isn't going to save them.


Propensity from what? You can't have it both ways, either they are predisposed to DA from genetics or not. Meaning they would ALL have the DA gene if ALL coming from fighting lines. Not just some, see the contradiction?

I am no longer commenting on the puppies, without seeing first hand and assessing myself I cannot say where/if any the issue originated. 

And I am not "acting" like it isn't true, it just isn't. DA is environmental and should be handled accordingly, situation by situation. Not ban an entire breed.


----------



## valreegrl

codmaster said:


> I wish you would also enlighten us about DA in the genes of GSD's as maybe I would feel a lot better about the sometimes DA of my own GSD and also that of a friend's GSD too. I wouldn't blame myself for it then, if I can say "it was just in his genes".


^ Thank you


----------



## codmaster

Ok, DJEtzel,

One question that I hope that you will answer. it is really a simple one.

What is a "pit bull"? That is, what is the actual real breed name for what you refer to as a "pit bull"?

There is a lot of confusion about what breed these dogs really are.

Actually a second question - are you including in your discussion above about pit bulls - the dogs that are pit mixes or just an absolutely pure bred pit bull?

Thank you.


----------



## codmaster

See this what I mean about defining a "pit bull"

"Pit Bull is a term commonly used to describe several breeds of dog in the molosser family. Many breed-specific laws use the term "pit bull" to refer to the modern American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and dogs with significant mixes of these ..."


----------



## valreegrl

codmaster said:


> See this what I mean about defining a "pit bull"
> 
> "Pit Bull is a term commonly used to describe several breeds of dog in the molosser family. Many breed-specific laws use the term "pit bull" to refer to the modern American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and dogs with significant mixes of these ..."


This is what disproves the theory. Not that "Pit Bull" is a social class so much as we discussed that and some have amended their complaint to only include APBT, but that the opposing theories proof is based on mostly dogs in shelters without DNA and background.


----------



## DCluver33

codmaster said:


> Ok, DJEtzel,
> 
> One question that I hope that you will answer. it is really a simple one.
> 
> *What is a "pit bull"?* That is, what is the actual real breed name for what you refer to as a "pit bull"?
> 
> There is a lot of confusion about what breed these dogs really are.
> 
> Actually a second question - are you including in your discussion above about pit bulls - the dogs that are pit mixes or just an absolutely pure bred pit bull?
> 
> Thank you.


I think this will answer (hopefully) pretty much all your questions


----------



## DCluver33

*EVERYONE READ THIS!!!!!!*

The APBT and Aggression - General Dog Discussions

please keep in mind when reading this that this ONLY pertains to the APBT NOT the other "pit bull" breeds


----------



## sitstay

DCluver33 said:


> *EVERYONE READ THIS!!!!!!*
> 
> http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=61486


Another fact based piece from a breed experienced person, which will unfortunately be ignored by at least some of the posters to this thread.
Sheilah


----------



## sitstay

Okay, Codmaster, one question that I hope you will answer. It is a really simple one.

Why won't you visit some of the links that have been provided, read the information contained on the sites those links take you to and then come back and refute the assertions being made by these breed knowledgeable owners and trainers on those sites? 
Sheilah


----------



## valreegrl

sit said:


> Another fact based piece from a breed experienced person, which will unfortunately be ignored by at least some of the posters to this thread.
> Sheilah


I am not "ignoring" the piece, just taking it into context as I feel that DA develops through environment. I am not opposing the fact that some breeds are purposefully bred for DA but in the correct environment DA will not be an issue. 

"Pit Bull" was/is being thrown around this thread loosely, and that is what is happening all over the country. Too many dogs are being lumped into this stereotype of "breed" causing much uproar in the dog communities. I feel strongly that threads like these could quite possibly cause a mob mentality in the wrong hands thus the trickle down effect could harm the good name of many other "protective" type breeds such as Shepherd/Rotties/etc. I for one would like education before terror.


----------



## sitstay

valreegrl said:


> I am not "ignoring" the piece, just taking it into context as I feel that DA develops through environment. I am not opposing the fact that some breeds are purposefully bred for DA but in the correct environment DA will not be an issue.


I challenge you to read what BREED KNOWLEDGEABLE folks have to say on the issue of "correct environment" being enough to make DA a non-issue.

READ through the many links and then come back and refute what they have to say. Don't sit there and split hairs on what is or isn't a Pit Bull, but address how very experienced people can be so wrong on this issue.

The people that know this breed, love this breed and advocate for this breed say in plain, unvarnished English that you are wrong. 

There is no shame in being wrong. What should be a shame is the fact that so many different people have provided information during the course of this thread, and yet it all seems to fall on deaf ears. 
Sheilah


----------



## sitstay

valreegrl said:


> I am not "ignoring" the piece, just taking it into context as I feel that DA develops through environment. I am not opposing the fact that some breeds are purposefully bred for DA but in the correct environment DA will not be an issue.
> 
> "Pit Bull" was/is being thrown around this thread loosely, and that is what is happening all over the country. Too many dogs are being lumped into this stereotype of "breed" causing much uproar in the dog communities. I feel strongly that threads like these could quite possibly cause a mob mentality in the wrong hands thus the trickle down effect could harm the good name of many other "protective" type breeds such as Shepherd/Rotties/etc. I for one would like education before terror.


Pulled directly from the linked site provided by DCluver:
"This is the reason why owners and advocates of this great breed need to better understand the APBTs’ most undeniable traits rather than shrugging them off as part of the common negative stereotypes surrounding the breed. 

When the breed was developed, dog aggression (DA) in the APBT was glorified and amplified. 
The chance of an APBT being dog agressive (or at least selective) is practically certain in most cases. 

Many members of this forum, and other seasoned owners, have experienced this first hand, often on more than one occasion. Even with the best of owners/trainers, DA can add a fair deal of complication to everyday life. 

(That is not to say that your APBT is a "bad dog" or that you can't keep him/her. With good handling skills, wise decision making, and motivation; Dog Aggression is manageable.)

Because DA is so commonly a strong and definite trait of the standard APBT, such a quality should be considered even when not visible. This particular breed can indeed be a danger to other dogs and animals when in the wrong hands. 

This is why it is so strongly emphasized by the majority of users on this forum to be educated and responsible when it comes to owning this breed of dog. As said time and time again by countless frustrated users on this forum as well as other experienced APBT owners and enthusiasts: 
Ownership of the APBT is not a job for everyone.

This is the reason why some (many) of us can end up getting angry or frustrated when one (especially an owner of the breed) refuses to take to heart the fact that DA is a common trait of our breed of choice, and that even if your dog has not shown it yet, it can show up."

Yes, absolutely a mob mentality that does nothing but amplify negative myths of ANY breed is a dangerous one. But the mob mentality that refuses to acknowledge the real, ACTUAL truth is also just as dangerous. 
Sheilah


----------



## DCluver33

valreegrl said:


> I am not "ignoring" the piece, just taking it into context as I feel that DA develops through environment. I am not opposing the fact that some breeds are purposefully bred for DA but in the correct environment DA will not be an issue.
> 
> "Pit Bull" was/is being thrown around this thread loosely, and that is what is happening all over the country. Too many dogs are being lumped into this stereotype of "breed" causing much uproar in the dog communities. I feel strongly that threads like these could quite possibly cause a mob mentality in the wrong hands thus the trickle down effect could harm the good name of many other "protective" type breeds such as Shepherd/Rotties/etc. I for one would like education before terror.


:headbang:


----------



## DCluver33

sit said:


> Another fact based piece from a breed experienced person, which will unfortunately be ignored by at least some of the posters to this thread.
> Sheilah


very sad and yet so true


----------



## sitstay

valreegrl said:


> And I am not "acting" like it isn't true, it just isn't. DA is environmental and should be handled accordingly, situation by situation. Not ban an entire breed.


I can't speak for everyone that has posted information here, but I know that I do not support a breed ban at all. 

You can love and advocate for a breed, and yet still have a clear, realistic view of what the breed is and isn't. The strongest, most credible advocates for any issue are those that can see the whole picture and not just the parts they feel comfortable with.
Sheilah


----------



## sitstay

DCluver33 said:


> :headbang:


I know. I just don't get it. 
Sheilah


----------



## valreegrl

I hate to say it, and no need to BANG HEADS as I am no more frustrated with you than you are of me, but I have read MANY studies regarding this topic and I still opt to believe what I do. 

I do not go around spewing my opinion in public, but rather enjoy the discussion and hoping to gain some knowledge even from people I do not necessarily agree with. 

So I leave this discussion, not defeated but for the sole purpose that there is no longer anything to gain. I have visited your links, read what you have provided and still conclude what I believe. Unfortunately, what was once a good back and forth refuting with knowledge has now turned into an attack through "YELLING" and simple rudeness. 

Since this is a Shepherd forum that I enjoy I would rather not push and continue to live my belief and rehabilitate/train out DA in "pit bulls".


----------



## DCluver33

Valreegr or anyone else who wants to take a stab at itl- explain this one, my friend has a Pit Bull since he was 8 weeks old from a reputable breeder who DOES NOT(not yelling just wanted to clarify ) breed fighting dogs. He's 1 1/2 old and has DA despite being to every dog OB class under the sun and in Dock Diving events since he was at least 10 weeks old, never been in a fight, lives with another dog, never even seen a dog fight and is very well socialized with other dogs until his DA showed up, so how do you explain his DA when he was never in a chance to be DA through "environment"?

just curious on what your explanation would be since you seem to think that DA is environmental and not genes


----------



## sitstay

valreegrl said:


> Since this is a Shepherd forum that I enjoy I would rather not push and continue to live my belief and rehabilitate/train out DA in "pit bulls".


Well, just make sure you stay away from any thread that might talk about inherent traits in the GSD. Since you don't believe in them in the Pit Bull, I would suspect you don't believe in them in the GSD either.
Sheilah


----------



## codmaster

sit said:


> Okay, Codmaster, one question that I hope you will answer. It is a really simple one.
> 
> Why won't you visit some of the links that have been provided, read the information contained on the sites those links take you to and then come back and refute the assertions being made by these breed knowledgeable owners and trainers on those sites?
> Sheilah


Been there, done that. (ANSWERED! now your turn!))

If you like acting as a reminder, why not ask your buddy to just answer a simple question or two? Please.........!

And I guess you have figured out how to become breed knowledgable by looking at only dogs that end up in a shelter, heh? Wonder how ANYONE would know the actual background and breeding of manyof those dogs? 

Do you think think that dogs in a shelter --- 1. Act like others in a breed would act who are not in a shelter
2. Act the same as they would after being in a real home for a while?

BTW, do YOU think that GSD's also have it in their genes to be DA? It appears that someone else on the forum is afraid to (or else realizes they don't really know, or maybe that it might destroy their foolish argument) so will not answer this seemingly easy question.


----------



## valreegrl

DCluver33 said:


> Valreegr or anyone else who wants to take a stab at itl- explain this one, my friend has a Pit Bull since he was 8 weeks old from a reputable breeder who DOES NOT(not yelling just wanted to clarify ) breed fighting dogs. He's 1 1/2 old and has DA despite being to every dog OB class under the sun and in Dock Diving events since he was at least 10 weeks old, never been in a fight, lives with another dog, never even seen a dog fight and is very well socialized with other dogs until his DA showed up, so how do you explain his DA when he was never in a chance to be DA through "environment"?
> 
> just curious on what your explanation would be since you seem to think that DA is environmental and not genes


Wow! Your right, it is all in the genes. 

Haha! 

I am going to say "no idea". There are so many factors to play in this scenario that I couldn't begin to give an explanation without a proper assessment. Is it true DA or is the dog in question simply reactive? Medical issues? Etc. 



sit said:


> Well, just make sure you stay away from any thread that might talk about inherent traits in the GSD. Since you don't believe in them in the Pit Bull, I would suspect you don't believe in them in the GSD either.
> Sheilah


This is why I will no longer partake in this thread as it pertains to the original discussion. I never said there is no such thing as inherent traits, just that without nurture those traits will never "come about" or "show". 
And how hard is it to agree to disagree without getting nasty. I hope that I have handled my beliefs in a dignified way without reaching this point. And a forum, is just that, a forum. It is where people gather to "give opinion" and that has been exactly what I have done.


----------



## codmaster

DCluver33 said:


> Valreegr or anyone else who wants to take a stab at itl- explain this one, my friend has a Pit Bull since he was 8 weeks old from a reputable breeder who DOES NOT(not yelling just wanted to clarify ) breed fighting dogs. He's 1 1/2 old and has DA despite being to every dog OB class under the sun and in Dock Diving events since he was at least 10 weeks old, never been in a fight, lives with another dog, never even seen a dog fight and is very well socialized with other dogs until his DA showed up, so how do you explain his DA when he was never in a chance to be DA through "environment"?
> 
> just curious on what your explanation would be since you seem to think that DA is environmental and not genes


How DA can the dog be if he has never been in a dog fight? That would be my first thought.

How would you define DA?

My second would be that he could be reacting to other experiences in the environment as well.

Third would be that your "friends dog" never learned the doggy communication skills that he should have and thus reacts inappropriately.

Maybe your friends dog is simply one of the very rare dogs that simply have a psychological problem (i.e. the equivalent of a human serial killer so to speak).

Last thought - I wonder what the other dogs that this "reputable breeder" has produced are like? Are they DA? 

Maybe the mother dog taught the pup to become DA but also taught it to wait till it was older and bigger before showing it?

And esp. maybe you could tell us what the other pups in the litter are like? Are all of them DA? *Any *of them? Did these pit bull pups try to kill each other in the whelping box (like that other litter someone told us all about). 

Could be that is what caused your friends dog to become so DA - you think?


----------



## DCluver33

valreegrl said:


> Wow! Your right, it is all in the genes.
> 
> Haha!
> 
> I am going to say "no idea". There are so many factors to play in this scenario that I couldn't begin to give an explanation without a proper assessment. Is it true DA or is the dog in question simply reactive? Medical issues? Etc.


he's defiantly not reactive, there are no medical issues, she's had him check by three different vets. 

She's on a strict crate and rotate system with him and her other dog.

He wants to kill every dog he sees no matter if it's reacting to him or not

please don't be sarcastic with me I just wanted to know your opinion


----------



## valreegrl

DCluver33 said:


> he's defiantly not reactive, there are no medical issues, she's had him check by three different vets.
> 
> She's on a strict crate and rotate system with him and her other dog.
> 
> He wants to kill every dog he sees no matter if it's reacting to him or not
> 
> please don't be sarcastic with me I just wanted to know your opinion


My sarcasm was not directed towards you but towards the question. I had already stated I was no longer commenting on the thread as it pertains to the original discussion then you tried to call me out again. 

Again, cannot comment on the situation since I do not have a true assessment, in person, of how the dog is reacting or where it originated which is why I said "your right". Kind of a way to just lay it at rest. We agree to disagree and live our lives in peace and harmony


----------



## sitstay

codmaster said:


> And I guess you have figured out how to become breed knowledgable by looking at only dogs that end up in a shelter, heh? Wonder how ANYONE would know the actual background and breeding of manyof those dogs?
> 
> Do you think think that dogs in a shelter --- 1. Act like others in a breed would act who are not in a shelter
> 2. Act the same as they would after being in a real home for a while?


You are aware that many shelter employees and rescue volunteers are involved in various dog sports that put them into close contact with dogs of many different breeds that have never been within ten miles of a shelter or rescue, right? So, no, I am not basing all of my experience on shelter or rescue dogs. Many of us actually own dogs that we purchased from a real, live breeder. 

I am no where close to being breed knowledgeable in Pit Bulls, which is why I depend on those that are for my information. Which is why, when someone who has been working and training the APBT for decades tells me something, I tend to listen to them. And when MANY different people who have real experience breeding, training and living with the breed tell me something, I really pay attention. Even when it causes me to rethink what I thought I knew.

Having fostered more than my fair share of dogs over the years, I can tell you that most dogs act differently in a home setting than they do in a shelter. Indeed, a lot of what I have shared here comes from my own, personal experience living with Pit Bulls in my home as fosters. What about you? How many have you lived with?

In point of fact, most shelter workers and rescue people will tell you that many, many dogs come into shelters and rescues with a very well documented history. Many dogs are surrendered with their registration papers. And it was always my policy to contact breeders whenever the names were supplied. I didn't care if it was AKC or some bull**ht registry. If there was a name, I contacted them. So, no, I am not pulling my facts out of my...out of thin air. So, I hope that answers your question of how ANYONE could know the background of many of these dogs. 

But, you know, if you want to ignore the real experiences and opinions of people who actually know more about something than you might, far be it from me to educate you on your shortcomings in those informational areas.
Sheilah


----------



## DCluver33

codmaster said:


> How DA can the dog be if he has never been in a dog fight? That would be my first thought.
> *they don't have to be. If you'd go read the links I've posted you'd understand that*
> How would you define DA?
> *DA to me is a dog that see's another dog (any dog) and want to fight it and/or kill it*
> 
> My second would be that he could be reacting to other experiences in the environment as well.
> *she could be somewhere like a quiet suburb street and her Pit would see another dog, leashed, not leashed, behind a fence, loose in the yard with or without it's owners around, and want to kill it*
> 
> Third would be that your "friends dog" never learned the doggy communication skills that he should have and thus reacts inappropriately.
> *he has been properly socialized every day with all types of dogs, big, little, hyper, calm, old, middle aged, puppy, before he became or she knew he'd be DA*
> 
> Maybe your friends dog is simply one of the very rare dogs that simply have a psychological problem (i.e. the equivalent of a human serial killer so to speak).
> *she's had him evaluated and that is not the case he's stable until he sees a dog and wants to kill it, but gets along with her Lab when properly supervised and when they can't be supervised they're each crated just to prevent a possible fight*
> 
> Last thought - I wonder what the other dogs that this "reputable breeder" has produced are like? Are they DA?
> *nope, the dogs the breeder had were not DA by any means, She doesn't breed for dog fighting as I previously posted nor does she want her pups to be DA. the breeder asked if she wanted another dog form her another litter and take her dog back, my friend said no she has learned to manage his DA.*
> *my friend knows someone who has a pup form her litter and a previous litter and neither of them are DA. they met up one day to have a play date and that's when she found out her dog was DA not even out of the car yet and my friend's Pit was ready to kill the other persons dogs who were just standing there ignoring my friends dog.* *Hair standing up, stiff body language making this sound I've never heard before in my life kind of like a screaming high pitched barking noise, clearly aggressive, and was fine with other dogs previously. I should mention the car's weren't parked next to each other, but had 7-8 parking spaces between them (rare quiet day at the park)*
> 
> Maybe the mother dog taught the pup to become DA but also taught it to wait till it was older and bigger before showing it?
> *like I said above none of her dogs are DA, and how in the world can a bitch teach it's puppy to wait until it's older to be DA?? that would be what a human would do not a dog* *so I don't quite understand your question *
> 
> And esp. maybe you could tell us what the other pups in the litter are like? Are all of them DA? *Any *of them? Did these pit bull pups try to kill each other in the whelping box (like that other litter someone told us all about).
> *the other puppies in the litter were sweet dogs, socialized with her other dogs (not pits they were a Golden, Lab, and some hound and possible mixed with JTR mix), let out to play (were NOT aggressive). these pups didn't try to kill each other in the whelping box.*
> 
> Could be that is what caused your friends dog to become so DA - you think?


*my responses in bold*


----------



## codmaster

So based on mostly this one puppy out of a litter, or more likely out of all the litters this reputable breeder has had over the years; you are believing that pit bulls "have DA in the genes"????? What about all the genes in the other pits from this very same breeder and even more so in the genes of all this poor dogs littermates? If it is in fact hereditary for pit bulls to be DA - why aren't all, or any, of the other related pits showing DA?

Certainly doesn't sound like "it's in the genes" to me.

And what about other breeds? Do they have it "in the genes". Certainly other "fighting dogs" would, wouldn't they? Or is the "in the genes" unique to the pit bull?

I assume from your talk about genes that you are aware of how inheritance works, correct? Dominant/recessive, single and multi gene inheritance?


----------



## sitstay

DCluver33 said:


> *my responses in bold*


I think we should just take a page from the other members and walk away. In our case, we might need a strong adult beverage once we do.
Sheilah


----------



## DCluver33

ugh never mind. apparently you don't want go read the facts with the links that I have so generously provided for you to read and learn.


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> Ok, DJEtzel,
> 
> One question that I hope that you will answer. it is really a simple one.
> 
> What is a "pit bull"? That is, what is the actual real breed name for what you refer to as a "pit bull"?
> 
> There is a lot of confusion about what breed these dogs really are.
> 
> Actually a second question - are you including in your discussion above about pit bulls - the dogs that are pit mixes or just an absolutely pure bred pit bull?
> 
> Thank you.


I already answered this, NEXT QUESTION! 



valreegrl said:


> I am not "ignoring" the piece, just taking it into context as I feel that DA develops through environment. I am not opposing the fact that some breeds are purposefully bred for DA but in the correct environment DA will not be an issue.
> 
> "Pit Bull" was/is being thrown around this thread loosely, and that is what is happening all over the country. Too many dogs are being lumped into this stereotype of "breed" causing much uproar in the dog communities. I feel strongly that threads like these could quite possibly cause a mob mentality in the wrong hands thus the trickle down effect could harm the good name of many other "protective" type breeds such as Shepherd/Rotties/etc. I for one would like education before terror.


This type of arguement does not harm the pit bull or any other breeds. We aren't scaring anyone into anything or lumping anything together. It is what it is and has been for decades. 



sit said:


> I can't speak for everyone that has posted information here, but I know that I do not support a breed ban at all.
> 
> You can love and advocate for a breed, and yet still have a clear, realistic view of what the breed is and isn't. The strongest, most credible advocates for any issue are those that can see the whole picture and not just the parts they feel comfortable with.
> Sheilah


Absolutely. I go to council meetings, keep up with the news, follow blogs, write letters, and keep up with the new. I am 100% realistic about the breed and have a lot of respect and understanding of them. 



valreegrl said:


> I hate to say it, and no need to BANG HEADS as I am no more frustrated with you than you are of me, but I have read MANY studies regarding this topic and I still opt to believe what I do.


I'm sorry, but this is just plain rediculous. I find it absolutely impossible for someone to have talked to the right people, read the right things, and still believe that pit bulls are not Dog Aggressive on their own from genetics. You think the wrong thing, in this case. It isn't a matter of opinion/opinion anymore as far as I'm concerned.



DCluver33 said:


> Valreegr or anyone else who wants to take a stab at itl- explain this one, my friend has a Pit Bull since he was 8 weeks old from a reputable breeder who DOES NOT(not yelling just wanted to clarify ) breed fighting dogs. He's 1 1/2 old and has DA despite being to every dog OB class under the sun and in Dock Diving events since he was at least 10 weeks old, never been in a fight, lives with another dog, never even seen a dog fight and is very well socialized with other dogs until his DA showed up, so how do you explain his DA when he was never in a chance to be DA through "environment"?
> 
> just curious on what your explanation would be since you seem to think that DA is environmental and not genes


These stories are thrown around all the time and are absolutely what we (knowledgable in the breed) use. No one arguing on the other side will care to listen though, or will justify any such story. I know DOZENS of dogs fitting this description to a T, but you know, they were nurtered into dog killers. 



codmaster said:


> Been there, done that. (ANSWERED! now your turn!))
> 
> If you like acting as a reminder, why not ask your buddy to just answer a simple question or two? Please.........!
> 
> And I guess you have figured out how to become breed knowledgable by looking at only dogs that end up in a shelter, heh? Wonder how ANYONE would know the actual background and breeding of manyof those dogs?
> 
> Do you think think that dogs in a shelter --- 1. Act like others in a breed would act who are not in a shelter
> 2. Act the same as they would after being in a real home for a while?
> 
> BTW, do YOU think that GSD's also have it in their genes to be DA? It appears that someone else on the forum is afraid to (or else realizes they don't really know, or maybe that it might destroy their foolish argument) so will not answer this seemingly easy question.


I'm sorry I have a job and a personal life and cannot be here to prove you wrong all of the time. 

I have spent a lot of time with shelter dogs, but they are by far not the only dogs I see. I grew up with pit bulls that were not rescues whose backgrounds I knew. I must have had 5 pitbulls in my childhood. I go to dog shows, talk to breeders, meet dogs. None of my thought and experienced is based soley on shelter dogs. AND, usually we do have a strong knowledge of the background of the dogs we get in the shelter actually, which is why I know which dogs were from fighting rings, backyard breeders, etc. 

And, like Sit, Stay, I also have fostered a few dogs and do see the difference from their shelter life to their home life and am basing many of my opinions from those experiences as well.

Once again, I am not talking about German Shepherds here. I am talking about a breed that I have a lot of experience with, that has NOTHING to do with the other. I don't see your correlation, but if that somehow proves me wrong, so be it. 



valreegrl said:


> This is why I will no longer partake in this thread as it pertains to the original discussion. I never said there is no such thing as inherent traits, just that without nurture those traits will never "come about" or "show".
> And how hard is it to agree to disagree without getting nasty. I hope that I have handled my beliefs in a dignified way without reaching this point. And a forum, is just that, a forum. It is where people gather to "give opinion" and that has been exactly what I have done.


You just don't understand how much your "opinion" is wrong to those that have knowledge and experience with the breeds and such a firm understanding of them.



codmaster said:


> How DA can the dog be if he has never been in a dog fight? That would be my first thought.


THIS shows just how unknowledgable you are about the breed. 



codmaster said:


> So based on mostly this one puppy out of a litter, or more likely out of all the litters this reputable breeder has had over the years; you are believing that pit bulls "have DA in the genes"????? What about all the genes in the other pits from this very same breeder and even more so in the genes of all this poor dogs littermates? If it is in fact hereditary for pit bulls to be DA - why aren't all, or any, of the other related pits showing DA?
> 
> Certainly doesn't sound like "it's in the genes" to me.
> 
> And what about other breeds? Do they have it "in the genes". Certainly other "fighting dogs" would, wouldn't they? Or is the "in the genes" unique to the pit bull?
> 
> I assume from your talk about genes that you are aware of how inheritance works, correct? Dominant/recessive, single and multi gene inheritance?


Are YOU aware of how genes work? It's obvious you aren't, because if you were you would know that not ALL offspring would inherit genes that the parents may carry, whereas you're saying for Pit Bulls to be genetically Dog Aggressive, that every puppy they have also has to be, which is complete idiocy and does not follow any laws of genetics.


----------



## valreegrl

> You just don't understand how much your "opinion" is wrong to those that have knowledge and experience with the breeds and such a firm understanding of them.
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly why I will no longer comment on the subject, you have shut down to even consider and research another side.
> Once and for all......dogs in general can be predisposed to certain behaviors through genetics, but those behaviors will not arise unless nurtured, DA included period. That is my final answer.
> 
> Consider Bloodhounds, in the 19th century they were "man killers" (PA along the same lines as DA). Would you say today that Bloodhounds carry the genetic make-up for PA and it's only a matter of time until they show that behavior?
> 
> All dogs are born with a "blueprint" of what makes up the breed genetically, but it is just that, a blueprint. Not written in stone, meant to be changed and altered throughout life.
> 
> Here you go: http://www.blessthebullys.com/id123.html
> Science changes, there was just an article in Time magazine showing that change: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1951968-3,00.html
Click to expand...


----------



## valreegrl

And another: Nature vs. nurture Happy Pit Bull

These are all articles showing that although genetics predisposed, behaviors are "mostly" environment, which is what I have been trying to get across all along. 
Disclaimer: Science continues to change and evolve and if we are not open to that evolution of change we will be stuck in a rut, along with our dogs.


----------



## GSDBESTK9

beowolf said:


> I'd like to try another meeting between the two dogs as long as the pitbull is muzzled.


Why?? :thinking: Dog aggression in Pitbulls is genetic. Once they taste a dog fight, you cannot stop them. :nono: I just don't see why you need for them to be buddies??? Plenty of other dogs out there that will be nice with your dog. My dogs NEVER play with other dogs except for my own. I understand pet owners feel their dog has to play with other, but why with a dog that you already know has dog aggression???


----------



## LaRen616

GSDBESTK9 said:


> Why?? :thinking: Dog aggression in Pitbulls is genetic. Once they taste a dog fight, you cannot stop them. :nono: I just don't see why you need for them to be buddies??? Plenty of other dogs out there that will be nice with your dog. My dogs NEVER play with other dogs except for my own. I understand pet owners feel their dog has to play with other, but why with a dog that you already know has dog aggression???


My GSD has been raised with a DA Akita. The Akita is labelled an aggressive dog because she killed a Lab, she killed a GSD mix and severely mangled a Lhapso Apso. She was 10 years old and he was 11 weeks old when they started playing with each other. I did not trust her and I did not want my puppy around her because I was afraid of what she might do to him. Well while I was at work my boyfriend at the time was secretly letting his friend bring his Akita over to play with my puppy. It happened several times before he finally told me. I was furious and couldn't believe he would do that behind my back especially because he was MY puppy. Well my boyfriend talked me into letting her come over and play with him and I can honestly tell you that she was so gentle with him. She licked his face, she walked around with him, she played with him, she let him jump all over her and chew on her. It was almost like watching a mama and her baby. They are still great friends and they see each other at least once a month, but they are never left alone together.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Well, despite the fact that your BF needed a lobotomy (and I think you said something maybe not that strong) there ARE DA female dogs who are okay with puppies for whatever reason and can accept them then as they grow. I would not have chanced it on a dog that killed 2 dogs and hurt another. 

BUT apparently in the OP's case this dog already went at the puppy I believe. So I would say, no pup for you!


----------



## DCluver33

to the OP. I don't think getting them together again is a good idea, wither the Pit is muzzled or not it went after your pup once it will probably do it again. I would strongly advise not to get them together again.

when we introduced my GSD to my friends DA lab we introduced them by scent for almost a year, they never saw each other ever. one day we decided it was time to see if they'll get along, so we took them on a walk in neural territory. after fighting my friend for a bit the Lab settled down and accepted my GSD. we were able to walk them with each other each on a right short leash ready to move away incase the lab showed any aggression what-so-ever. they were never allowed loose leash with each other, they did very well but we knew if he Lab showed any aggression it wouldn't work and we would never be able to get them together again. we did the same thing with her DA Pit took us amost a year to finally get them together and it worked, they are *never* left alone unsupervised, because her Pit is becoming more dominate and my Gsd is a dominate male and that can cause a problem.


----------



## codmaster

valreegrl said:


> And another: Nature vs. nurture Happy Pit Bull
> 
> These are all articles showing that although genetics predisposed, behaviors are "mostly" environment, which is what I have been trying to get across all along.
> Disclaimer: Science continues to change and evolve and if we are not open to that evolution of change we will be stuck in a rut, along with our dogs.


 
Very well put!


----------



## Zoeys mom

I wouldn't put them together either- why risk injuring your dog cause muzzles do come off or emotionally scaring your dog. If you allow your dog to be dealt with aggressively by other dogs you will condition your dog to think to fear other dogs- not a good idea.

On the topic of genetic DA in pits anyone who doesn't believe this has never owned an APBT. There are exceptions just like some GSD's are not aloof but one of the breed characteristics is aggression towards animals and a love of people and children. It has nothing to do with environment. I know a few dog friendly pits who play with my dogs well all the time, but most I know do not play well with other dogs. It's just how it is


----------



## pache11

This is a great experiment on breeding foxes for both decreased and increased aggression. Started in 1959 and continuing today.

Domesticated silver fox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I had grown up with GSDs since I was a baby and had no experience with pits(many different varities) untill my mid 20s. I had quite a few preconcieved notions that were wrong. Pits are generally not human aggressive unless trained to be so. Most are such babies with humans it is hard to believe they can be aggressive. DA is much more common, but has to be evaluated by both the individual and the lineage. Many are not DA, but often others can be DA without any training or apparent reason. I have seen those that are extemely AA(animal aggressive) and will kill any small animal and is not DA at all. Others are only DA when the other dog will try to show dominance over them. Others are aggressive with all dogs that are not part of their pack. 

Genetics plays a large part with this and any breed, not just for aggression, but for many traits such as herding, tracking, protection and more. Look at GSDs, how many show line shepherds bred in the US are suitable for police or protection work? Our one shepherd Sarah would catch balls just as easily with her paws as with her mouth, we could not train another shepherd to duplicate what she could do with her front feet. 

It is impossible to know the history or lineage of most shelter dogs. Alot of dogs that people suspect of being abused may have not been abused at all, but suffer from weak temperments from poor breeding or lack of socialization. 

I was wrong when I was younger about the 'pit bull' breeds. You have to carefully evaluate each individual. I do the same with each shepherd that I allow into my home. Pits are a wonderfull breed that exceptionally loyal with their owners and family. They are not perfect and suffer from many of the stigmas and poor press that afflicts many of the labled breeds. I remember when dobermans were labled as devil dogs and uncontrollable. Dobes are also wonderfull dogs that had been given a very bad rap. With that said, however, pits are capable of very dangerous damage to other dogs when unsupervised. Most other dogs do not know how to cope with a pit attack. GSDs are happy when they are put to work, most of the pit type breeds are just as happy fighting with other dogs. They were initally bred to be a fearless fighter of other animals including dogs. They are not demons, just need to be carefully evaluated and watched with their interactions with other dogs.


----------



## codmaster

pache11 said:


> This is a great experiment on breeding foxes for both decreased and increased aggression. Started in 1959 and continuing today.
> 
> Domesticated silver fox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> .........................


 
Very interesting experiment. 

If one believes that DA in pits is genetically based, then this experiment shows just how quick that inherited behavior can be altered dramatically in a population simply by selecting against it. So if one believes that MOST pit breeders (except for those still fighting them) do not want or select for DA, it should disappear (almost!) in only a few generations, I would expect.


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## sitstay

valreegrl said:


> And another: Nature vs. nurture Happy Pit Bull


From the SAME website you referenced:
*Dog Aggression*

"Our discussion on this page will focus on dog-aggression, which is common with (and should be expected from) pit bull-type dogs. Aggression toward humans is NOT typical of the breed-type and should NOT be tolerated or encouraged."





I am confused. Your writer states that DA in Pits and Pit "types" is a combination of genetics and environment and that the average pet owner doesn't have to train or socialize their Pit any differently than any other breed (I believe he used the Chihuahua as the example in that comment). 

Okay, I don't agree with him and neither does 99% of the trainers and breeders and behaviorists I have talked to and read, but he is entitled to his opinion and so are you. But how do you explain the apparent contradiction here? DA is "common and should be expected", but it is due at least in part to environment? 
Sheilah


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## valreegrl

sit said:


> From the SAME website you referenced:
> *Dog Aggression*
> 
> "Our discussion on this page will focus on dog-aggression, which is common with (and should be expected from) pit bull-type dogs. Aggression toward humans is NOT typical of the breed-type and should NOT be tolerated or encouraged."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am confused. Your writer states that DA in Pits and Pit "types" is a combination of genetics and environment and that the average pet owner doesn't have to train or socialize their Pit any differently than any other breed (I believe he used the Chihuahua as the example in that comment).
> 
> Okay, I don't agree with him and neither does 99% of the trainers and breeders and behaviorists I have talked to and read, but he is entitled to his opinion and so are you. But how do you explain the apparent contradiction here? DA is "common and should be expected", but it is due at least in part to environment?
> Sheilah


_"*For behavior to occur, environment must come into play."*_ 

Taken from SAME website and is exactly what I have been trying to get across. 

_"Aggression is a behavior. A complex behavior, to be sure, but a behavior nevertheless. And what do we know about behavior? It is influenced by environment and experience." _

Again another quote. 

_"We have all heard the stories about dogs who were not trained to be aggressive, yet still attacked someone. Remember, however, that learning occurs all the time, not just when a dog is formally trained by its owner. Dogs learn life lessons from a variety of sources, including but not limited to the owner. For example, a dog’s play, in which two dogs pounce, growl, and tussle in a playful manner, is actually ritualized aggression. When dogs play, they are practicing aggression."_

And another. 

I see the point you and others are trying to convey, but nobody will even err on the side of caution and see mine. Remember when the world was flat


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## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> Very interesting experiment.
> 
> If one believes that DA in pits is genetically based, then this experiment shows just how quick that inherited behavior can be altered dramatically in a population simply by selecting against it. So if one believes that MOST pit breeders (except for those still fighting them) do not want or select for DA, it should disappear (almost!) in only a few generations, I would expect.


The ratio of reputable breeders producing puppies to fighting rings and backyard breeders is very skewed. While some reputable breeders are successfully breeding this out, there are more than a thousand times more puppies being produced with the opposite in mind every year.


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## gsdraven

valreegrl said:


> _"We have all heard the stories about dogs who were not trained to be aggressive, yet still attacked someone. Remember, however, that learning occurs all the time, not just when a dog is formally trained by its owner. Dogs learn life lessons from a variety of sources, including but not limited to the owner. For example, a dog’s play, in which two dogs pounce, growl, and tussle in a playful manner, is actually ritualized aggression. When dogs play, they are practicing aggression."_


Which means that aggression is a genetic trait or did these puppies learn to play aggression from the breeder somehow in the few weeks before they could walk and play with each other?



valreegrl said:


> I see the point you and others are trying to convey, but nobody will even err on the side of caution and see mine. Remember when the world was flat


The mindset that dogs can be genetic DA is the cautious argument. If one understands that dogs (pitbulls in particular) have a genetic tendency to be DA then they can control the environment so that the genetric trait is not nurtured and is managed. It is not cautious to believe that pitbulls are not genetically DA and therefore they will never aggress on another animal if that trait is not nurtured.

I get trying to improve the image of the pitbull breed but sugarcoating what they have been bred to do and are capable of is not doing the breed any favors.


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## valreegrl

gsdraven said:


> The mindset that dogs can be genetic DA is the cautious argument. If one understands that dogs (pitbulls in particular) have a genetic tendency to be DA then they can control the environment so that the genetric trait is not nurtured and is managed. It is not cautious to believe that pitbulls are not genetically DA and therefore they will never aggress on another animal if that trait is not nurtured.
> 
> I get trying to improve the image of the pitbull breed but sugarcoating what they have been bred to do and are capable of is not doing the breed any favors.



I don't think I have sugarcoated the breed traits, just trying to convey that genetics plays a small part in the bigger picture. That predisposition to certain traits does not mean that the trait will "show" during that dogs life without nurture of that particular trait, no matter what it is. 
The only reason why my argument is pertaining to "Pit Bulls" is because that is where the thread started. But my belief pertains to any breed of dog/cat/etc as well as human.
Study international adoption as it pertains to nature vs. nurture.

**As with any bully breed dog, potential owners need to be aware of that breed's "possible" traits. But I have also seen hysteria that is unnecessary and unfortunate for the dogs as well.


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## sitstay

gsdraven said:


> I get trying to improve the image of the pitbull breed but sugarcoating what they have been bred to do and are capable of is not doing the breed any favors.


Exactly the point that has been made over and over again in this thread. There is nothing wrong with being a passionate advocate for the dogs, but to do so blindly is just as dangerous as those that malign and hate based on misinformation from the other extreme view.
Sheilah


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## gsdraven

valreegrl said:


> I don't think I have sugarcoated the breed traits, just trying to convey that genetics plays a small part in the bigger picture. That predisposition to certain traits does not mean that the trait will "show" during that dogs life without nurture of that particular trait, no matter what it is.
> The only reason why my argument is pertaining to "Pit Bulls" is because that is where the thread started. But my belief pertains to any breed of dog/cat/etc as well as human.
> Study international adoption as it pertains to nature vs. nurture.


The sugarcoating comment wasn't specifically directed to you, it was a general comment. The rest, I don't agree with. Genetics plays a huge role and genetics can be managed by environment but you can't change your genes.

And, I am a huge example of how important both nature and nurture are. I have lived with my step father since I was 2 years old with very, very limited exposure to my biological father and his family until I was a teen. I inherited some basic personality traits from my biological father (nature) but how I express those traits on a daily basis are largely are result from the influence of my step father. (nurture)

Edited to clarify: the traits I mentioned as inherited from my biological father are not traits that my step father or mother possess. Luckily, one of those is my love of dogs despite never growing up with pets and my family as a whole not liking dogs.


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## selzer

I am sorry if I did not go through all 25 pages and am maybe parroting something someone else said, but not all dogs NEED to get along with other dogs. If I owned this pitt bull, then, I probably would just manage him. I would train him to tolerate other dogs at a distance and keep him safe from any dog fights, but I would not try to have other dogs play with him. 

If I owned the GSD, then this is one home I would not take my GSD to. Especially a puppy. Bad experiences for puppies can last a bit longer and have more consequences. No reason for your dog to go EVERYWHERE with you and see everybody's dogs.

I too have been in training classes with pitt bulls. One in particular was big and intimidating, but the best dog and not dog aggressive at all. Many shepherds in training classes have made me more concerned. And for some reason, the chocolate labs are the only ones that ever seem to go for me. LOL!


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