# Vet muzzled my puppy?



## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

So Bender went to the vet today for some shots. He is 16 weeks old and 37.5 lbs. He is the goofiest, most loving puppy ever. He is also teething (just lost his first tooth on Monday ^_^) so he has been extra "chewy" with his front teeth.

Anyways, we've been to this vet 3 separate times. Had 3 separate vets and 3 separate techs. I used to work at this vet 3 years ago as well. Bender has been totally fine and happy about this place. He has always been weird about his left ear and hollers when you stick something down into it, but so far he doesn't have any infections. Well, so the vet tech came in and took his temp, he did fine. She checked his ears with q-tips, he did fine (did the little holler once and was fine). She checked his mouth and body, and he was fine. Then gave him some Panacur. 

The vet then came in and went to his ears. I said "Be gentle with that left ear, he can be over dramatic." After I said that, she REALLY went to town bending just that one ear and looking deep in it, stuck a q tip in his ear and he freaked out. His other ear, she just poked the q-tip in and he was fine. Then she went to check his mouth and he let out a growl. To me, it sounded just like the sound he makes every single time we play. Anytime we play tug, anytime I am brushing him and he wants to bite the brush, and any time he is wrestling with another puppy. She then says "we need to muzzle him" and she muzzled him and he just sat there looking at me, seeming very confused. She gave him his shots and then proceeded to tell me my dog is aggressive and will most likely have to be muzzled every time he comes in???? She said "German shepherds are weird like that, they typically have to be muzzled."

I understand not wanting to take a chance, but he is seriously just a goofy puppy. I think she freaked him out with the ear thing, and he has been shaking his head on that one side since we've been home and walking lopsided, but I think calling him aggressive is a little much? When I worked there and we had to muzzle dogs, usually after the muzzle was on they were still thrashing around and trying to kill everyone. He just sat there looking at me across the room. I am worried that if he gets muzzled when he is there every time, he will develop a negative association with that place. After that vet left, another one came in (my friend) and proceeded to play with him on the exam table and gently wrestle with his head. He was fine.

Am I being overly sensitive? Or should I try not to have her be our vet? There are like 5 vets in this facility.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I'd try another vet. I don't think that it's appropriate to muzzle a 4 momth old.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mine is full grown and has never been muzzled by the vet's choice. I asked them to muzzle her one time, because she was very sick and I didn't know how she would react. She did fine. I think that I would ask to see a different vet. Did they put it in his records that he needs to be muzzled?


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

I would be finding a new vet if I were you, sounds like the vet is very insensitive and incompetent when it comes to knowing how to handle or have knowledge of GSD's


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## Piper'sgrl (Apr 20, 2012)

i agree, change vets..no vet should say that about any breed. Way to stereo type. She should know better, the pup is 4 months old and probably was just a little uncomfortable but by no means aggressive. I would try to go to a different vet that will be more regular instead of having to see a different vet each time. Then no one really knows your dog as well.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Ok...the dog growls at someone and just because its 4 months old you expect the vet to put her body at risk? Sure...find another vet if you want, but I wouldn't take a chance with a growling dog either. The dog probably can't do that much damage...but any damage to the vet's hand probably puts her at risk for not being able to do her job. Who knows...maybe its a tiny scratch, maybe its a little blood, or maybe the tooth nicks a nerve of some sort and the vet can't move her thumb for a week?

There is a world of difference between YOUR dog growling while playing with YOU. And YOUR dog growling at ANOTHER person. At my club...no dog is allowed to growl, no matter what age. My dog can growl while I'm playing tug with him, but if he even lets out a little one towards another dog or human, he will get corrected.

This vet is incompetent? Seriously?!?!? Because she wants to muzzle a GSD? You realize that vet probably sees a bunch of unruly, untrained, aggressive dogs on a daily basis. If putting a muzzle on is what the vet needs to do her job...let her do it. It doesn't hurt a dog any to have a muzzle on.

I love people making judgement about a vet and a puppy's intentions over a 4 paragraph post.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I have much more of a problem with the Q-tip than the muzzling.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

The vet is incompetent for saying that "German Shepherds are weird like that, they typically have to be muzzled"... which is untrue if she is seeing a bunch of GSD's that are aggressive than unfortunately she is obviously going to have a negative bias against them, but to imply that they are all like that and need to be muzzled is ridiculous... Diesel never once growled at anyone including the vets (which she loved) and Penny never has either, and Im sure a lot of other people will agree


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Umm, Martemchick, you may have missed it but I stated in my first post:
"I understand not wanting to take a chance"

I used to work at this exact vet, and nobody else that I worked with would have muzzled a dog for that. We muzzled dogs who were snapping, trying to bite, etc. The vet just graduated and has only been working there a handful of months. I just started seeing her around October-ish because I work at the building next door, so I am friends with all the employees there. I am facebook friends with the other vets. I also take my dog to work with me every shift and all the other vets (since they are my friends) see him regularly and all know what's going on with him. I was more mad at her generalizing my dog as an aggressive dog and saying he's just like every other german shepherd. I will admit, when I worked there it was almost guaranteed that the shepherds would be the most freaked out ones, but we didn't jump the gun and muzzle them. We just had to be very calm and relaxing to them and it helped a lot. 
I am also bothered by the vet's aggressive ear exam, I don't understand that.

Also, she spent about 5 minutes telling me my desire to get him neutered at 2 was incorrect and that 1.) My dog will probably get cancer, 2.) My dog has a high likelihood of scaling the fence and escaping to impregnate a bitch and then will get hit by a car (she really said this..), and 3.) He will pee all over the house when he begins to mark. I just sat there saying "Thank you, but I will wait till he is two" and after a few times of saying that, she said okay, your choice and that I was ready to check out. I was really annoyed by the whole time spent with her. The techs were great as always. My friend was one of the techs and she even said "Steph doesn't neuter her dogs at 3 months, she does it when they are older and they never get out." 

IDK I guess I am just venting now.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

mandiah89 said:


> The vet is incompetent for saying that "German Shepherds are weird like that, they typically have to be muzzled"... which is untrue if she is seeing a bunch of GSD's that are aggressive than unfortunately she is obviously going to have a negative bias against them, but to imply that they are all like that and need to be muzzled is ridiculous... Diesel never once growled at anyone including the vets (which she loved) and Penny never has either, and Im sure a lot of other people will agree


So your TWO...against the dozens or hundreds that the vet has probably seen?

My boy never needs a muzzle...but I've been told that on Monday when I go to get his hips OFA'd they WILL put a muzzle on him because they do it without anesthesia and the dog ends up on his back (many don't like that).

It's really not surprising...I took my boy to our vet this year and after his physical the vet was shocked that he was still intact. He was amazed at how well-behaved and calm he was for an intact GSD. All that told me was that the vet sees crazy, aggressive, intact male GSDs more than he sees well trained dogs. I don't call him incompetent because he feels that way...its just based on his experience with the breed. And there is no reason for a vet to think any of our animals are against the status quo of what they've seen through their career.

Many German Shepherds do not like getting touched by strangers...be it because of the way they were raised (not socialized to it) or because of their personality.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

So I'm a little curious. You know- context is everything in these kinds of stories.

*You:* "Be gentle with that left ear, he can be over dramatic."
*Vet:* <immediately starts jabbing around/in that ear without saying anything>

Really? Did the vet say anything like, "Hmmm- do you think he might have an infection or something down in there? Maybe he has something in there that is bothering him. Let's see if we can take a look..." <starts prodding>

To me, that is sooooooooo much different than the vet silently just poking around for no good reason after you say to be careful.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

sjackson310 said:


> Also, she spent about 5 minutes telling me my desire to get him neutered at 2 was incorrect and that 1.) My dog will probably get cancer, 2.) My dog has a high likelihood of scaling the fence and escaping to impregnate a bitch and then will get hit by a car (she really said this..), and 3.) He will pee all over the house when he begins to mark. I just sat there saying "Thank you, but I will wait till he is two" and after a few times of saying that, she said okay, your choice and that I was ready to check out. I was really annoyed by the whole time spent with her. The techs were great as always. My friend was one of the techs and she even said "Steph doesn't neuter her dogs at 3 months, she does it when they are older and they never get out."
> 
> IDK I guess I am just venting now.


Most vets will push neutering/spaying. Most of their clients aren't responsible enough for intact ownership so they push it. It's also a crazy profit maker for them. It's probably the equivalent of an appendectomy for humans. The simplest surgery they can do, and they charge as much as they can for it.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Yeah, my older shepherd he LOVES LOVES LOVES the vet because that's where he was raised since I took him with every day. He only growled once and that was after being stuck in the neck 5 times while being cornered into the wall, cause nobody could find a good vein lol and immediately after he growled he licked her in the face.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Wildo, I wish I could say she said something like that. She gave a weird face (kind of resembled a "hmmm let's check it out" face) and then grabbed the long q-tip, reached her non dominant hand around his neck/body and back around to the base of his ear, then with her other hand she was pulling the ear apart to separate it and get the hair outta the way (he's a coatie so he has ear floofies) and while this was happening he was trying to wiggle outta her grasp and was doing the freaked out whine that german shepherds do, and then she twirled the q-tip back and went deep into his ear and spun it for a couple seconds, and pulled it out. The whole time he was freaked out.

Then she said his ears look very clean, asked how often I clean them, and said she doesn't know why his left ear is so sensitive. Then went on to his mouth and he was kinda ticked off ever since the ear exam apparently because that's when he let out a growl. When I say growl though, it wasn't the type of "I am going to bite you" growl, it was the kind they make when their mouth is open and they are inviting play with another puppy. It kinda sounded like a howl mixed with a growl, mixed with a dying cat sound.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

get yourself some Zymox and treat the ear .


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Carmspack, before I quit working there, I stocked up on meds in case I ever needed them. And I usually just have to say "Hey can I pick up some _______" and they let me have it  Point of me saying all that, I have Remicin and I gave him a prophylactic dose of it as soon as we got home


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

good , at least then if you return to that vet , the ear won't be a source of tension --- maybe get onto a better footing with the vet .


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Yeah, idk, he has always been so weird about that one ear. They ran tests and everything, all is clear. But I will treat it for a week anyways.
I think I will just have my normal vets look at him.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Here's my little squirt at the vet


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> This vet is incompetent? Seriously?!?!? Because she wants to muzzle a GSD? You realize that vet probably sees a bunch of unruly, untrained, aggressive dogs on a daily basis. If putting a muzzle on is what the vet needs to do her job...let her do it. It doesn't hurt a dog any to have a muzzle on.
> 
> I love people making judgement about a vet and a puppy's intentions over a 4 paragraph post.


 
There really is nothing wrong with muzzling the dog but for the vet to generalize GSD's is an issue.._She gave him his shots and then proceeded to tell me my dog is aggressive and will most likely have to be muzzled every time he comes in???? She said "German shepherds are weird like that, they typically have to be muzzled_."


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I've had 4 GSDs, none of them ever had to be muzzled at the vet's office. I guess they were 'atypical'. 

Of course my vet was kinda old school-pretty unflappable ... I think he was more cautious of my cat than any dog I ever brought in! (with good reason .. she was a Siamese who did not appreciate anything the vet did and frequently swiped at him).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I take my dogs to a large animal hospital that has many vets on staff. For routine stuff I never request a specific vet, so my dogs have seen probably a dozen different vets. Some seem to love GSDs, others not so much. One always prefers to muzzle my dogs. Honestly I don't care. It won't kill the dog to be muzzled for 30 seconds during a vaccine or blood draw. They should probably have that experience anyway, in case they ever get hurt and require a muzzle to be treated or carried to safety. I don't think any of my dogs *need* to be muzzled, and I always offer to hold my dog's head and make a muzzle with my leash. I've also had a vet make really uninformed comments about GSDs but it's never been enough for me to leave the animal hospital and go somewhere else. If I don't want to deal with her I just ask for someone else. I don't really care what she thinks of GSDs or what her past experience has been, she just has to draw blood and give some shots.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Any time I am at the clinic with any of my animals, I do not stand back and allow the vet tech to handle my dog. I am the one assisting the vet. If the vet needs an experianced hand to do a specific procedure, then I'll stand with my animal, but out of their way. 

If any of my dogs growled at the vet (or tech), I would be the one suggesting a muzzle. I don't want anybody hurt due to my dog's behavior. 

I know it's hard, but try to only concern yourself with their medical opinions on your dog. That is what you're paying for. If you trust your vet's medical advice, then stay. If you don't, then find another vet. 

The clinic I use love my GSD. He is aloof and always looks as though he is ready to eat their face. But he has never made a sound when being treated. They allow me to handle him while the vet treats him. It works for us. 

I do get an ear full when the vet is treating my Lacy - who much like your pup - is (was) very mouthy. I even got training advice. I just smiled and nodded. I trust his medical advice - that is what I am paying for. His training advice? Not so much. But I'm not paying for that.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

I would understand the vet muzzling the pup to get a better look at the ear without fear of getting bit (since you said he can be sensitive about the left ear, the vet probably wanted to check it more carefully to see if there was infection or something... should have told you first though), but just because he growled (if it was a puppy play growl) and is a GSD? Um... yeah. I would avoid that vet.

My vets always talked to me about neutering my dogs as well. Just listen to them and politely decline whenever they bring it up. No reason to argue or stop seeing them because of this.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I only skimmed through the responses. 

I have no problem with muzzling. I actually said to muzzle my dog at our visit last week. No reason not to. It's not going to hurt the dog. I think everyone should train their dog to accept the muzzle and move on. I don't know what the big deal is.


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## TommyB681 (Oct 19, 2012)

bashing a vet for being safe..


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Liesje said:


> I take my dogs to a large animal hospital that has many vets on staff. For routine stuff I never request a specific vet, so my dogs have seen probably a dozen different vets. Some seem to love GSDs, others not so much. One always prefers to muzzle my dogs. Honestly I don't care. It won't kill the dog to be muzzled for 30 seconds during a vaccine or blood draw. They should probably have that experience anyway, in case they ever get hurt and require a muzzle to be treated or carried to safety. I don't think any of my dogs *need* to be muzzled, and I always offer to hold my dog's head and make a muzzle with my leash. I've also had a vet make really uninformed comments about GSDs but it's never been enough for me to leave the animal hospital and go somewhere else. If I don't want to deal with her I just ask for someone else. I don't really care what she thinks of GSDs or what her past experience has been, she just has to draw blood and give some shots.


This! Exactly this.
Sheilah


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

On Riley's last shot visit he growled when the vet walked in. A very quiet short growl. The vet started petting him and all was well. Riley wagged his tail and was fine, but I still got the "your dog is showing agression and it will only get worse" lecture. He didn't muzzle him though. 

My last vet was convinced my small shepherd/chow/poodle mix was part Rottweiler and he muzzled him every time we went in. The dog was 25 pounds and only gave kisses. We did change vets.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I am luck that I work for my vet. And they always trust me with my dogs. Also, if there is worry about a clients GSD, I get called in. 

I have no problem muzzling if its safer, but they know I can read a GSD and most if the time I take a less is more approach and the dog is fine. 

I hate to say this, but I prefer to muzzle Rotts. I know this, so I usually have another tech handle them. She can read and handle them waaaay better than me. 

I do think that as owners it's up to us to prepare our dogs for anything. That may mean getting them used to a muzzle. If they are used to it, it is a non issue and you don't have to worry about it when someone asks to muzzle them. 

We should also be preparing our dogs for the things that happen at the Vets. Looking in ears, staring in the eyes, picking up feet, laying in side, trimming nails, standing still with someone reaching over them. All these things happen at a Vets and we should make sure our pets learn to be comfortable with them. 


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> I hate to say this, but I prefer to muzzle Rotts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Back in the day almost every cocker spaniel that came in should have been muzzled. They were just mean. They had to shoot a sedative into one of the dogs mouth to get it to calm down..It was crazy:crazy:


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Most vets will push neutering/spaying. Most of their clients aren't responsible enough for intact ownership so they push it. It's also a crazy profit maker for them. It's probably the equivalent of an appendectomy for humans. The simplest surgery they can do, and they charge as much as they can for it.


I agree...with everything you've said in this thread (and you and I have been on opposite sides before) 

I also want to add...I've worked in a lot of venues before my current profession...vet clinics (large and small animal), business offices, starbucks, university research labs, and I have to say...nothing grinds my gears more than someone coming in that "used to work there" and may know a few people....sometimes they are sweet and keep quiet while I or the new person do OUR job...but most of the time they are super judgmental, think they can do the job better, and are either very outspoken about this or go and complain to others about how when THEY worked there blah blah blah....I am assuming you aren't a vet, like a PP said...if you don't like her get another, but you are paying for her medical opinion. She muzzled your dog for her own safety(I would have TOLD her to muzzle my dog if it growled at her). And I literally laugh out loud EVERY time I hear "it's not an angry growl, it's a play growl."......I don't care if the dog stood up on its hind legs and shook my hand, if he growls...I protect myself or those dealing with him, especially in a medical setting....


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Actually spaying an animal is a very complicated procedure. Yes it's common but it full of risks, and vets actually lose money keeping costs down so people can afford it. 

I have been in spays that are far more than routine. It can actually be quite scary. 


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Actually spaying an animal is a very complicated procedure. Yes it's common but it full of risks, and vets actually lose money keeping costs down so people can afford it.
> 
> I have been in spays that are far more than routine. It can actually be quite scary.
> 
> ...


 
I agree. It makes sense logically and I have shadowed a vet before and watched a few spays, as well as the vet telling me this.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

If the dog growled at her she has a right to muzzle it regardless of age....a 4 month old GSD puppy can still give a nasty bite......you said he sat there fine with the muzzle on so I don't really see what the big deal is....


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I guess I don't see a problem with having to muzzle the pup. If the vet felt uncomfortable, then fine. He should have been muzzled. I see a bigger probem with all the extra digging in the ear without telling you why, the stereotypes which only means lack of knowledge, and the push to neuter early. Those are the things that would really tick me off! Not so much the muzzling. That's their call if they feel comfortable with your dog or not, and you shouldn't take offense to that. Plus it is not a bad thing to get him used to wearing one. It will be a lot harder down he road to get a dog 3 times his size to accept it  !!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I dont agree that the vet needed to get "aggressive" about checking that ear. She could have done so more nicely and I also dont agree with the stereotyping of "aggression only gets worse". Jumping on the 4 month old puppy aggressive traing irks my patience. HOWEVER, I do agree that a better safe than sorry approach is a good thing. Plus you add in the fact a dog SHOULD know that being muzzled isn't a bad thing. You really never know if it'll be needed. My first GSD was very aggressive with our first vet and I really can't say I blame her any. He didn't handle her nicely and was very heavy handed with her. He was rude and assumed his word was law basically and treated me like dirt but when my husband was in with me, he ignored EVERYTHING i said and spoke to my husband, despite her being MY dog. My husband would wait in the waiting area and the vet would walk out of the room and tell him or get his permission for something. We switched vets and she adored them. never had to be muzzled for anything. The male we just recently had to have put to sleep used to love vets and be perfectly fine with them until a bad experience. He had to be muzzled from that point on at the vets office and I was always asked to hold his head. I'd rather he have been muzzled than in the position he could have bitten someone. But i KNOW my dogs. Shasta has never growled at a person. She's almost 3 and I've only recently heard her growl for the first time. She loves going to the vet because she always gets loves and treats. The vet can do no wrong in her eyes. She's never been muzzled but I also have no doubts she'd be fine with it anyway because she's such an easy going girl. 

Request a different vet that you and your pup feel more comfortable with. Dont leave the practice altogether unless the quality of care drops in your standards. I usually prefer a senior vet assist a junior vet that new out of school with my animals. 

Also if a vet pesters me about speutering my animals before I'm ready, I remind them they're MY animals and I'm responsible enough to handle containing a bitch in heat or controlling an intact male. I've NEVER had any issues with unwanted litters.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

My last visit at 11 weeks my vet made me sign some garbage that if they get bit I will pay for their rabies treatment??? They passed blame onto cook county requiring it. 
#1 they should have their own insurance for that. #2 they greet my puppy by asking for face licks= Huge liability for me. Im gonna finish up my shots this week and find a new vet. And Im gonna rub their rudeness in their face by requesting a muzzle for my friendly puppy and requesting they not ask for kisses. 
It offended me that they had me sign that form, just like you are offended by the muzzle. But Ill take the muzzle vs my signed away rights.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think a vet that is afraid of a 16 week old puppy probably needs another job. PetsMart offers a grooming deal up through five months old. Or up to five months old. The point is to get the puppies used to handling so that when they are 65 - 70 pounds they are not a royal pain in the backside to manage them. 

Sixteen week old puppies are not remotely scary. Even if they use a variety of vocalizations. 

I am glad that Carmen came on and suggested treating that ear. It really sounds like something is going on there. Maybe its middle ear? The pup seems kind of young to have so much trouble in the ear area. Just going in deep with a q-tip would have probably got me going, though I would expect a vet to look more closely at something I said was bothering the dog. I would want them to use the funky probe thing and actually look at the whole canal, not just try and fish gunk out. But then, I am spoiled. If the puppy is shaking its head and acting off balance and is very sensitive about that ear, it sounds like a problem. 

I have never gotten my dogs used to a muzzle. I muzzle them when I think it makes sense to do so, and make no bones about it. I have no problem with a vet muzzling my dog, but the suggestion is far more likely to come from me than to come from them. So far no growling at the vet's. If I think something is going to be seriously painful, I will muzzle the dog so that there is no chance that my dog will bite anyone. I would be almost as upset about my dog biting someone, than I would be about the person's injury. I just don't want my dogs to ever feel that that is an option. Once they do bite, and the world does not come to a crashing halt, the next time they are in a situation, it might be that much easier to do the bite thing.

But at 16 weeks, I think that you are still in the socialization period where good socialization experiences are way positive, and bad ones are way negative. On the one hand, that ear needed to be looked at. On the other hand, you really do not want to make the vet visit very unpleasant. I think that I might request a different vet after this. The vet seems unreasonably biased against the breed itself. 

A little more than a week ago, I took a pregnant bitch into a 24 hour clinic because she was in labor and had not produced a puppy. There was a whelp-assistant there, and a vet. I think the three of us were the only ones in the building. It was deserted. 

When the whelp-assistant checked my girls temp and then her junk, she did not ask me to hold her head. But all was fine. The vet came in, and she was going to see if she was dialated, and she told me to hold her head. There was no talk of a muzzle. I was a little surprised, but did as I was told. Odie is a real lady and she won't hurt anyone. 

They then took her into the other room for x-rays, and they did a quickie ultrasound to check heartbeats, and brought her back with compliments as to her behavior. As the night wore on, the vet did two more ultrasounds on her. By the time the repro vet came in in the morning, the vet really emphasized how nice the bitch was. 

Might this person have been a bit wary of GSDs? Maybe. Maybe she has seen a lot of them that are not so good. Maybe she knew that dogs sometimes freak out at vets, and sometimes if they are in pain, or having a problem, they might be more reactive. I really don't know. There is nothing wrong with a vet being safe. 

But sixteen week old puppies are babies. Its like handcuffing a four year old kid. 

Yes, the dog might need to be muzzled in the future at the vets, especially if he has negative experiences at the vet. And a few shots are not bad enough to make an ordinary dog freak out.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Okay, I see there is some confusion. And I left something off.
Him being muzzled isn't the worst thing in the world, and like I said, he didn't even react to it or try to get it off. I forgot to mention though, I was holding him when the vet came in and she said "I am going to call someone in to hold him" and I said "oh it's fine, I'd like to be the one to hold him" and she said "I don't want him to think you're doing any of this to him" and I said "i think it will be fine" and she got on the phone and called in for assistance anyways and had a tech hold him. Maybe that's why she was so short with us? So I stood about 3 feet away against the wall while she had the tech standing there (doing NOTHING but making sure the dog didn't fall off the table) and then when she started grabbing the q-tips, I made the remark to be careful with his ear, then all that other stuff happened. The tech only held Bender during shot administration. Which he took like a champ.
And for whomever said an owner is just trying to justify their dog's growl to be playful when it really isn't - well, I am pretty sure the owners know their dog more than an offended internet poster. Yes, I work at the store that this vet is attached to (PetSmart and Banfield) and I DO know most of the employees. They also know my dogs. They wouldn't have invaded my dogs space like she did with the q-tip without even telling me. Or as much as she did. Also, his ear shaking, lopsided walking happened AFTER she did that, not before. It lasted about an hour after we got home and now he is fine again. I wish she woulda taken out an otoscope but the thought didn't cross my mind at the time because I was shocked at what was going on.

But I digress. My dog didn't care about the muzzle I am assuming because he always has his gentle leader on. He wasn't phased, didn't "try" to bite the vet while it was on, or make a peep. Just sat there looking at me. The vet can take whatever safety measures she wants, but I think the whole experience was overall crappy. She was very short with me. She did not know I used to work there either, or that I work next door now. Unless someone told her afterwards or she figured it out by my friend (the tech) telling her about how I treat my dogs. She is brand new and hasn't been graduated for a year even yet. My personal opinion is that she needs to work on her customer service skills and respect when I say no to something (neutering in 3 weeks) and my dog being vet aggressive (although if this is how all his visits go from now on, he just may be soon). He got poked 4x in the butt one week ago when he had giardia and he didn't give a hoot. Okay I am just ranting again... I am staying at the vet office, but will request the other vets when they ask if I have a preference.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sjackson310 said:


> Okay, I see there is some confusion. And I left something off.
> Him being muzzled isn't the worst thing in the world, and like I said, he didn't even react to it or try to get it off. I forgot to mention though, I was holding him when the vet came in and she said "I am going to call someone in to hold him" and I said "oh it's fine, I'd like to be the one to hold him" and she said "I don't want him to think you're doing any of this to him" and I said "i think it will be fine" and she got on the phone and called in for assistance anyways and had a tech hold him. Maybe that's why she was so short with us? So I stood about 3 feet away against the wall while she had the tech standing there (doing NOTHING but making sure the dog didn't fall off the table) and then when she started grabbing the q-tips, I made the remark to be careful with his ear, then all that other stuff happened. The tech only held Bender during shot administration. Which he took like a champ.
> And for whomever said an owner is just trying to justify their dog's growl to be playful when it really isn't - well, I am pretty sure the owners know their dog more than an offended internet poster. Yes, I work at the store that this vet is attached to (PetSmart and Banfield) and I DO know most of the employees. They also know my dogs. They wouldn't have invaded my dogs space like she did with the q-tip without even telling me. Or as much as she did. Also, his ear shaking, lopsided walking happened AFTER she did that, not before. It lasted about an hour after we got home and now he is fine again. I wish she woulda taken out an otoscope but the thought didn't cross my mind at the time because I was shocked at what was going on.
> 
> But I digress. My dog didn't care about the muzzle I am assuming because he always has his gentle leader on. He wasn't phased, didn't "try" to bite the vet while it was on, or make a peep. Just sat there looking at me. The vet can take whatever safety measures she wants, but I think the whole experience was overall crappy. She was very short with me. She did not know I used to work there either, or that I work next door now. Unless someone told her afterwards or she figured it out by my friend (the tech) telling her about how I treat my dogs. She is brand new and hasn't been graduated for a year even yet. My personal opinion is that she needs to work on her customer service skills and respect when I say no to something (neutering in 3 weeks) and my dog being vet aggressive (although if this is how all his visits go from now on, he just may be soon). He got poked 4x in the butt one week ago when he had giardia and he didn't give a hoot. Okay I am just ranting again... I am staying at the vet office, but will request the other vets when they ask if I have a preference.


Since you worked at a vet office, you probably know this stuff, but maybe she is new to how ya'all do things down your way. 

What she may have learned in vet school was to have a tech hold the dog, because 1, owners might not keep the dog from biting you or themselves, and the vet may be liable for that bite, or 2, some pet owner's anxiety actually makes the animal worse. Having a competent, experienced tech hold the dog, might actually make things less traumatic all around. 

It's funny because I have been with my clinic for 30 years or so, and it has just never been an issue, but one of the older techs, let me know that they let one of the newer techs know that I can be trusted holding my dog. 

That's odd, because I am just as happy to pass the dogs off. "Go with her." 

Who holds the dog is not a problem for me, what I don't like, ever is if they take the dog in another room for something other than x-rays or surgery. Actually, I kind of prefer to be there even for a surgery. I am not going to feint or anything. But, for simple bloodwork, do it in front of me sister. I want to know how many times you have to stick my dog.

Mostly issues with the vet, are our responses to the vet, the situation, and to our dogs. We can make it a lot harder on our dogs, and that does make it a lot harder on the vets. If we are doing fine, the dogs will generally be pretty much ok with whatever is going forward.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> But sixteen week old puppies are babies. Its like handcuffing a four year old kid.


No.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

sjackson310 said:


> And for whomever said an owner is just trying to justify their dog's growl to be playful when it really isn't - well, I am pretty sure the owners know their dog more than an offended internet poster. Yes, I work at the store that this vet is attached to (PetSmart and Banfield) and I DO know most of the employees. They also know my dogs. They wouldn't have invaded my dogs space like she did with the q-tip without even telling me. Or as much as she did. Also, his ear shaking, lopsided walking happened AFTER she did that, not before. It lasted about an hour after we got home and now he is fine again. I wish she woulda taken out an otoscope but the thought didn't cross my mind at the time because I was shocked at what was going on.


I would hardly think he was growling at her playfully if she just did what you said she did to his ear....
You need to find another vet......it doesn't matter what this vet does in the future you don't like her and won't trust her so ask for someone else.

And no....muzzling a 4month old GSD who is growling at you is NOT like handcuffing a 4 year old child.....


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## Dextersmom (Mar 11, 2013)

Gotta love the recent graduates who think they know everything and that they can conquer the world. Hopefully this vet's bedside manner will improve with experience, or she is going to offend a lot of pet owners with her attitude and lose a lot of customers. 


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

This is my own opinion and I'm not bashing anybody buttttttt......

4 month old pups still bite pretty hard. I got bit by a 4-5 month old Malinois when I took a piece of plastic out of his mouth and boy did that sting! If a vet asked to muzzle my dog, I would without hesitation and not argue or have any doubts. Even though your puppy is 100% perfect with you, you need to realize the vet doesn't know him like you do, and that growl has a whole different meaning than what you perceive it as.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Normally I have never had to muzzle any of my animals for vet care. There were a few instances we my vet came to my house on a farm call that I used a muzzle of my own choice on our previous GSD I might have used one on Apache for a home vet call but never at the vets office. If I thought for 1 second there was the slightest chance of a bite I would definately tell the vet put a muzzle on. I never had a truely agressive dog let alone an aggressive puppy.
When I brought Lakota to this vet she previously had gotten all vaccines from a different vet with no issues. For some reason she totally freaked out and is terrified at the vets office now. My vet tried working with her to gain her trust to no avail. She said well at least she's not aggressive about it. If I thought she bite out of fear I would muzzle her too.
Now the vet tech is a very nice girl but she always bear hugs the dogs to restrain them, IMO this is a great way to set yourself up for a bite, probably in the face. I always have to tell her not to do that with my dogs.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Sorry, but we NEVER let the owners hold or help with an animals treatment. Most dogs will act up around the owner and then treating is 100 times harder. I said most, so don't need 50 people saying their animals never do that. We have no problem with the owner being there, talking to the animal if it doesn't excite them, but not holding them for shots or whatever is needed.
Why? Because if the typical owner is holding their pet, then the dog bites them while being treated and they SUE the vet. Has happened over and over and over again.
OR, the dog growls or squirms away and the vet gets bit because the owner doesn't really know how to control the dog/cat/horse or whatever.
As far as muzzling, we muzzle a dog/cat if we feel there is or can become an issue. Doesn't matter what breed, if one of us can get bit, or the vet can get bit, we will muzzle for safety.
Oh, and a 4 month old puppy can't do damage? I had three stitches put in my finger/hand for a 4 month old Great Dane puppy that was according to the owner" just playing".


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Really? Wow...I hold both Jax and Banshee. I do leave the room for Sierra who was backing right under me. Chaos was held by the vet while the tech drew blood but that was only because he was already there. I do not let them be taken in the back after I watched some big guy very roughly manhandle Jax, which is completely unneccessary since she'll hold still and let you stand her on her head if you need too....which is the reason, I hold her. But maybe they get the vibe that I wouldn't sue for my own dog biting me. People are morons.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Exactly. We never take the dogs, welcome the owners into the room, but because alot of folks are sue happy, we have to protect outselves. 
We have let a few owners "help" hold their dogs win very special circumstances , so I will retract that we will not let "anyone" hold their own dogs, but 99% of the time we do the holding.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

As far as muzzling...I don't think it's uncommon for a vet or tech to approach a dog wrong and cause a situation where the dog growls. I had Sierra on a prong collar and was waiting in the room. The tech came in, grabbed the leash and DRAGGED her across the floor before I could say a word. I came out of my seat and the vet tech did not return to the room. I didn't make a huge deal out of it so I dont' think my reaction caused Sierra to growl at the vet a few minutes later. But it was requested that she be muzzled. I don't have a problem at my current vet's because both of these guys let the dogs come to them and take the time afterwards to treat them and pet them.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Our vet muzzles Jake, but there is a little history. When Jake was 10 months old we did have an incident where he bit the dog walker that had been coming into our home to walk him since he was 9 weeks old. We took the incident very seriously and I took him to the vet and we ran a variety of tests to see if there was a health reason to explain his behavior, but nothing was found. After working with a dog behaviorist it was determined to be a reaction out of fear/anxiety. We don’t really know what the dog walker was doing because she wasn’t very forthcoming with information. He also wasn’t feeling the best with digestive and allergy issues at the time, so maybe he just wasn’t feeling well and lost his patience.

So as a result of that, they were muzzling Jake at the vet. I feel bad for Jake, but don’t take it personally. Fortunately after a switch to home made dog food his digestive and allergy issues are gone and he hasn’t had to go to the vet in since November 2012. I hope over time they will trust him again and not feel the need to muzzle him. He is the sweetest dog. He is a little shy and apprehensive around new people and dogs, but if you don’t force the issue, he warms up in his own time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Banshee was always muzzled up until a couple years ago. She may never have bitten but sure acts like she will...so we never gave her a chance. 

I know people get insulted when they are asked to muzzle their dogs but I think they need to view it as protecting their dogs. And if your dog did do damage to a person who was just examining them and doing their jobs, how would you feel? I would be horrified.

I'm not opposed to muzzling in this case either. I would be quite torqued at the rough treatment of the ear that caused the growl though.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

sjackson310 said:


> And for whomever said an owner is just trying to justify their dog's growl to be playful when it really isn't - well, I am pretty sure the owners know their dog more than an offended internet poster.


But did you ever stop and think about how many owners probably say that same thing and then the dog ends up biting a person? Especially with young dogs, that are maturing, its hard to predict when they're going to decide to do something stupid like that.

My dog...WILL BITE. He's not trained to bite, but he has no quarrels doing so. One of my AKC obedience instructors also trains in Schutzhund...she has told me to not allow anyone but a few people at the club that truly understand dogs to correct him. He will not take a correction, or extensive touching from random people. He is fine with stand for exams (even the utility one) but if I am out of sight, and he needs to get corrected...he will fight. Any one that does correct him must be very calm and not over react to anything he does, since that might just amp him up more.

But anyways...its fine if you had a beef over the muzzle, or the extensive ear touching, or her general lack of "bedside manner." But vets say stupid things a lot, they also don't know how knowledgeable each and every individual is before they walk through the door is, or how long they've sat online doing research on each and every procedure/vaccine. My vet made me sign a paper stating that I chose to waive the bordetella booster...I found that funny, but I guess they've ran into someone who's dog got kennel cough and they probably decided to take it out on the vet that they didn't "push" hard enough for the vaccine to be done.

And yes...many of us have never had to muzzle our dogs. But our dog ownership is so small compared to what a vet sees daily. A vet sees more dogs in a day than many of us have owned in a lifetime...so their statistics are much more accurate than our personal ones. And like I stated earlier, my dog WILL see a muzzle for the first time in his life on Monday...I've got no beef with it, it will probably be safer for all involved.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Like I've said a few times, I don't mind him having a muzzle on. I just didn't like the way she approached it, or the comment she said after it was on. I found THAT to be insulting. My puppy is not aggressive, otherwise I wouldn't bring him to work with me where he meets at least 100-200 people a day and 40+ dogs a day. He probably was agitated that she hurt him by digging in his ear, I understand that. And as much as I've been doing ear/paw/mouth/tail massaging to get him used to all that, I've never jammed a q-tip deep into his ear. Everyone else who went for his ear did so much more gently and less aggressively. I am not my dog though, so I cannot tell on what level it hurt him. Maybe it was extremely, extremely painful, who knows. But he wasn't very fond of her after it happened.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'd probably use another vet, while I don't have a problem with the muzzle, I would have had a problem with her attitude and comments.

I always help with my dogs/cats when they go to the vet for whatever reason. Of course my vet is also a friend of mine, she knows I can handle whatever it is we're going to do...(I did throw out my back lugging my aussie up on an xray table last year!LOL)

With that, I have never had to muzzle my animals for 'anything', at the vets, and some have gone thru some pretty invasive stuff..until "masi"

She loved going to the vets until I had her spayed and she stayed overnite..whatever happened, and it could have been nothing, the only thing that girl is terrified of in life is my vet Techs can do anything to her, she has no problem IN the building , as soon as the vet walks in, she turns into mush, I muzzle her because she is so scared I have a good feeling, she'd nail her if she could.. Now, keep in mind, my vet comes to my house (socially), and masi loves her..so go figure.

Just a quirk of hers, and again, I have no problem muzzling her there, it actually calms her down, like it's taking her maybe choice to bite, out of her hands.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

4.3 weeks = 1 month
5 weeks is a little over a month. 
6 weeks is about a month and a half
8 weeks is almost two months. 
8 weeks is 56 days which is about 5 days shy of two months.
9 weeks is about 2 days over 2 months. 

3 months old is 13 weeks, there are 4 sets of 13 weeks in a year. 

16 weeks is 3 months and 3 weeks old.

4 months old = 18 weeks to 22 weeks 

5 months old = 22 weeks to 26 weeks 

26 weeks is 1/2 year is 6 months old. 

This puppy was 16 weeks old. Upper end of three months old, almost four months old. A week two or three weeks old can make a huge difference in a puppy. 

16 weeks old is not remotely scary. I am sorry. Vets have to deal with full-grown dogs that are injured or terrified. If they cannot manage a BABY dog, then they have no business being a vet. 

If they quietly, calmly muzzled the puppy and and explained that what they were going to do might be scary and they do not want the puppy to be able to react with its teeth, I would be ok with that, though, they could have probably accomplished what they wanted to by taking a little time and being a little more careful with the puppy. A muzzle on a puppy that is not accustomed to it, might make them a lot more scared and upset.

If their answer is always to muzzle the dog, how will they examine the teeth, gums, refill, etc? 

I have taken 3 or 4 16 week old puppies to the vet at the same time. They are just NOT scary at that age. 

Now I have had a trainer AFRAID of a 10 week old puppy -- no growling. Definitely breed bias in that situation. 

I was at my vet's getting some help delivering Babs' last pup, a singleton last year. I was holding her head and the vet and the tech were on the other end delivering the pup. I could reach up there and feel the pup but I could not get it out on my own. So I took her in. Babs was in pain. They finally asked me if I wanted to muzzle her when she clamped onto my thumb. She did not hurt me, it did not break the skin. There was no aggression. She was just in pain. Thankfully, they got the puppy out of there quick though. Babs is 70 pounds of scary, a 16 week old puppy is a baby dog -- not remotely scary. 

Maybe an 18 - 25 week old Malinois is scary. I wouldn't know.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

selzer said:


> 16 weeks is 3 months and 3 weeks old.
> 
> This puppy was 16 weeks old. Upper end of three months old, almost four months old. A week two or three weeks old can make a huge difference in a puppy.
> 
> 16 weeks old is not remotely scary. I am sorry. Vets have to deal with full-grown dogs that are injured or terrified. If they cannot manage a BABY dog, then they have no business being a vet.


Thank you, Selzer, for pointing out that he is not even 4 months old yet. He still isn't. I was wondering if anyone was gonna pick up on that. Everyone thinks 16w=4m and then they think "oh wow, 4 months, he is almost 5 months" etc etc. He IS just a baby. Can he bite hard? Why yes, he can. The scars on my hands will show that  But like I said, I do know the sounds my VERY vocal puppy makes. The sound that came out of his mouth is the same sound he makes when we're playing on the floor and I blow air into his face and he goes "arrrghoooourrrghhh" and he keeps his mouth open as if he is gonna bite. 

I DO admit, he seemed aggravated after she was in his ear. But as a trainer, I see real aggression all the time. Even in puppies (albeit they are usually a bit older than Bender is now). I can confidently say my pup is so far NOT vet aggressive. I've seen that, too.

I just talked to one of my vets on facebook an hour or so ago and she said that the new vet is very jumpy. That's fine too. I do not like her bedside manner though. I graduate nursing school in 8 weeks, and I just got my first job today (YAY), and if I ever talked to my patients the way she talked towards me (condescending, rude) I know I'd have a complaint filed. I did hear a lady who takes my training classes say recently that she LOVES this lady, so she cannot be horrible. However, I don't think this vet enjoys having a client tell her that they don't agree with her every word. I was very polite to her the whole time, I just didn't want to shake my head and say yes during our entire interaction. Maybe she thought I was snooty, Idk. But anyways, I will see how Bender does the next time we go in. Maybe I will ask one of my vet friends to use the otoscope in his ear.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Being with the same vet clinic for almost 30 years presents problem. For one thing, vets will tend to get ready for retirement in that time. And things grow. And the idea of starting over with a new vet in your clinic is plain difficult. 

And then, bringing in a litter of puppies, and having her sprung on you, and disagreeing with everything she said -- I swear she probably went into the back room disgusted with me. 

I have seen her again though. Maybe the gals in the back, or the other vets talked to her about me. Maybe she just is a really decent person, but I have seen her several times since then and she seems ok. 

Initial impressions are important. Maybe she just needs to fine-tune her approach. Maybe.


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## Jovi_Girl (Dec 4, 2012)

A vet I've used for years (with other breeds) tried to muzzle my 15 week old. I left and haven't been back since. He said they taught him at A&M to never trust a German shepherd. Ha. 


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## tarim69 (Mar 17, 2013)

My old vet used to wrap the dogs mouth with gauze first thing.

Reason being is that every dog is different. Some get upset by having their temperature taken, others having things put in their ears. And the most well beahaved dog can get frightened by someone poking around at them.

He's been caught on the hand, the nose, the face, etc... So he wraps their mouths. 

He's certainly not hurting them and its a precaution because he often has to get his face so close to the dogs during a examine and it would be easy for a dog to catch him.

As long as its done with consideration, I dont mind.


As a side note, I'd never let anyone in a vet office mistreat my dog. I'm responsible for her and she's under my protection. A stranger just walking over and drag her across the floor....... uh, no.

I have a friend who's a trainer and some her stories about other trainers and vets = what is wrong with these people


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## AngVi (Dec 22, 2012)

I would definitely find a new vet. No way would I let them do that to my puppy.
I can understand being cautious with an older dog. But seriously at little puppy - come on.
And you wouldn't want your puppy to be afraid of the vet all together because fear of being muzzled. 


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