# On-lead Frustration reactivity?



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

There seem to be a lot of quality resources for people with fear-aggressive and dominance-aggressive dogs out there, from classes to books that are really helpful.

But, what about the dog who hasn't got fear issues, is pushy but not terribly dominant.. the dog who throws a fit because he wants to say hello to another dog, feels the lead and can't-- and reacts? Basicly, "I wanna go say Hi to that doggy.. Aaaaah! Leash won't let me?? But I wanna-- I wanna!! Aaaaaahhhh!!!" (In real-life, it sounds a lot more like "Woo-woo, woo-woo-woof!!" and is accompanied by a lunge that could forcibly unearth a small oak) Dog is leaning forward, bouncing, play-bowing, ignoring owner who's at fault here(that would be me..), and basicly trying to bounce until the other dog might come play, regardless of what the handler wants.

So far, I have only found one online article about this:
http://www.moellerdog.com/resources_aggression.htm
Are there other links, articles, or books out there about this?

I am trying to use the methods for fear-aggressive dogs, because that's all I have books for (FeistyFido) and links about. It is helping, I am using a halti and clicker training when we see a dog. Notable improvement!!







But, the problem is still there. So, a trainer is going to take Grimm for 3 weeks, then work with me and Grimm together for 2 more weeks. What adds to the problem is that my hands are weak, my leadership skills are not bad, but my dog feels my weakness on walks, and wants to control and get a doggy-play-meeting going. The trainer will *not* be using purely positive methods. I am OK with that.. this dog has a very strong mind and character compared to me. Mismatch or not, I have toughened up NILIF, incorperated training into our daily living situations, and in all but this we are doing well. I hope and pray that three weeks (with the trainer) of learning that he can walk by another dog and not get to meet it helps. His corrections would effective and over in a split second, unlike my weak, ineffective ones that make things worse by annoying, aggrevating the dog rather than making things clear and cut-and-dry for him.







I myself will forever train everything using positive methods, but clearly I need this trainers help here, even if his methods are to show Grimm "Ah, no, you DO have to just calmly walk right by the other dogs without getting to initiate a playfest." After a year of my ineffective handling, this has become a habit for Grimm that needs to be unlearned. Grimm himself is getting much better at self control in other areas.. I can see his maturity (slowwwwly).

Are there books and links anyone can reccomend for frustration reactivity? Or training excersises that can help his frustration tolerance? (we do tons of sit-stay-focus-then "Okay!" release before he goes through doorways, gets his waterbowl set down, foodbowl, gets treats, toys, can come out of his crate, etc etc in our daily living. I will try any exercises reccomended that can help him build up his frustration tolerance.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Frustration on-lead reactions*

OK, this kinda fits it, too..
http://watchandtrain.com/dogtraining/blo...rustration.aspx
'barrier' frustration.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Sounds to me like maybe Grimm's just an adolescent.







I bet if you keep working on teaching him some self-control (as well as working with the trainer) that you'll have a well-behaved pupper in no time.

Here's a couple articles I found that might help you out:

http://www.canineuniversity.com/articles/training/train_10.html
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/selfpg.html

Info on Doggy Zen:
http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Levels/LevelBehaviours/TL26Zen.html
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002c/song.htm
http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/buildbeh_topic5A.html


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Goooood articles, Jamie!! Thank you! I am bookmarking these to read. Thank you especially for the encouraging words. I just currently don't know anyone with a dog who throws tantrums at not getting what he wants.







The encouragement helps! I hope with time and training, that he can accept when he can't get to meet other dogs on-lead when he wants.

Off to go read...


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Brightelf, you are not alone..........Ava has a complete meltdown when she wants to play and I wont let her....I might as well not exist at that time.........


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

I know dogs who throw tantrums. And I see tons of others that do the same. Actually, most of the dogs we run into are either reactive or tantrum dogs.







Very few are calm and well-behaved. Which makes my job all the more difficult.

Don't feel bad. Adolescence can be a tough time for both dog and owner. All three of the dogs in our Level 2/3 class are all adolescents and have started pushing their limits a bit. But with some work, I don't doubt those three will be fine. Same with your Grimmy.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Do the tanturm dogs ever stop being tantrum dogs? Has anybody ever had a dog like this get better? Maybe you're right Jamie, and this is very much an adolesent thing, plus needing training and maturity to kick in.

Betsy, Ava and Grimm are about the same age, too.







I am hoping that dogs like Grimm CAN learn to settle and calm when they cannot do or get something they want.

Off to read those articles..


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Ava does calm down......it just takes a while of waiting until she will watch me......it is getting better......but it is such a bummer I see these nice calm dogs and mine is a basket case........I have been assured she will be an awesome dog....we are starting our CGC classes tomorrow night, wish us luck! I want to get her into agility, but we need her to calm around other dogs first.....


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## krispifsu (Dec 23, 2007)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Did you notice your dogs act like this as puppies too?

My pup barks like mad when she sees other dogs or people that she cannot get to. I give her a stern 'No bark' and not let her meet the people/dogs when she is barking/hyper...and praise and let her meet people when she sits and is quiet.

Sometimes people look at me like I have this crazy, ferocious puppy. And I hate sounding like those owners that excuse their dogs' poor manners by saying "Oh she's just friendy/excited/happy/loves people" and allow their dogs to misbehave when they shoudn't...but she's still a learning puppy.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Betsy, they said she will be better-- did they seem to think maturity would help, or a specific type of training for Ava to learn to self-calm and control herself?

Kristin, actually, as a puppy, Grimm was slightly this way with other dogs, but mainly-- he would be digging in a snowback, and of course the snow would move away from his paws.. then he would discover a frozen puddle of ice, and try to dig through that too.. when it wouldn't budge the way the snow had for his paws: tantrummmm!!! Or, he would pick up what he thought was a stick, but it would be a tree root and refuse to budge for him..... tantrummm!! The tantrums were not barking, but hysterical chimp sounds and struggling to get the things he wanted to move to move for him.









I am really interested to hear if anyone has had any progress in working on this in their dogs?


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

_"Do the tanturm dogs ever stop being tantrum dogs? Has anybody ever had a dog like this get better?" _

Not just better, but the behavior is practically gone. My daughter (12yr) can even walk my big boy (supervised of course) without getting pulled around, using only a regular collar.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

If that was a tantrum-throwing dog, that's encouraging. What helped?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Patti,

Last night Rafi was doing this at his agility class because he wanted the other dogs to pay attention to him. He would bark in this high pitched bark and jump up in the air because he was frustrated that all these dogs were running around and no one was playing with him! I could get him to refocus on me but he really wanted those other dogs! So I can empathize with what you're going through. It seems like big puppy behavior to me so I trust that it will go away as he matures. I'm also continuing to use the clicker and having him focus on me when we see another dog so that he associates looking at another dog with getting positive attention from me and doesn't get fixated on the other dog.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Ruth, it sounds like you are getting a better response with the clicker.. I am too, but, I am not yet getting an easy time getting him to look at me. A few problems are that i cannot surrently use any high-value treats due to intestinal issues, i can only use dry kibble.. not the best going into a high-distraction situation







and I think you are right, age plays a big role. There is a strong element in Grimm's barking-lunging display of "But, I WANNA!!!"









Ruth, Rafi is adorable, adorable, adorable.. i peeked at his Dogster page!! I wonder if he has Malinois in him or is really pure GSD? Luxurious coat on that handsome boy.







Since you got him so recently, have you noticed any changes in his ability, due to classes or training or whatever methods, to better control his impulses and handle frustration?


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Actually the trainers I have worked with just chuckle and tell me she will mature...I do think it is age partly, and then drive as well...she really likes to be involved in everything.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Odd result of our rutine: Normally, when we see another dog, I get his attention, work him a lil, click and treat all through it.. and at the end, as the other dog recedes into the far distance from us, Grimm gets a mondo-cuddle-icious chest-scritch snugglefest. 

Now, as he finishes a rutine with me when seeing a dog, he hurls himself bodily sideways against my thigh, grinning up at me, leeeeaning into the hugs and scritches. Ears pinned was back like a Whippet, tongue lolling, he grins and starts the snugglefest himself at the end of our rutine now LOL!









The problem is still there... he is still dangerous for me to walk due to the tantrums sometimes that still happen... but I am trying hard to change his focus from tantrum to working-treats-look at me-get hugs.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*



> Originally Posted By: BrightelfIf that was a tantrum-throwing dog, that's encouraging. What helped?


Well, mainly the Halti work you've already incorporated- but instead of always refocus the dog on me, I would also turn around and walk away from the other dog- this acts as a punishment, since the dog is removed from what he wants so badly. 

But instead of always using treats for good behavior, occasionally I would also give my dog the ultimate reward- the one he wanted all along = let him play with other dogs. I believe giving the dog what he wants- if he behaves- has a much stronger effect on establishing the behavior you want to see (since it has the highest value), then any food reward or alternate. 

I bet you would make alot more progress, if you would allow Grimm to play with other dogs too as reward, but I understand it might not be possible given the circumstances you're in. But maybe you could try and figure something out to make it possible.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Mädchen, that's an idea, actually. Granted, I myself can't do this alone, but, I may ask at an animal shelter here for help. As you probably already know, Germany is ahead of USA in often having trainers on as a floating staff for their animal shelters, to rehab dogs with problems and issues before they get placed in homes. Grimm is *just* now starting to 'get it' that when he so desperately wants to greet a stranger that has stopped to talk to us, that he must first sit his butt down, and give me focus before I say "Frei." Ok, his butt muscles are twitching, but, he can and does hold his sit-stay now, looking at me for his release to go hurl himself bodily on the ground, paws waving in the air, at the feet of the Oma or Opa admiring him. (too bad he's so shy, huh?







)
So, maybe we can work on this with other dogs in a controlled class setting for a month or so (busfare is costly, it is far away). The trainer is a positive clicker trainer who has met Grimm before. It's an idea.. thanks Mädchen!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*



> Originally Posted By: BrightelfRuth, it sounds like you are getting a better response with the clicker.. I am too, but, I am not yet getting an easy time getting him to look at me. A few problems are that i cannot surrently use any high-value treats due to intestinal issues, i can only use dry kibble.. not the best going into a high-distraction situation
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rafi says thanks for the compliments. His coat has come in magnificently in the 11 weeks he's been here! People with mals who have met him say he definitely has mal. He is much smaller than a gsd--probably weighs 60 pounds and will top out at 65. He is also redder like a mal. But who knows? He is a sweetie and that's what counts! 

As for his behavior, treats are the key to his heart. I can even call him off chasing a bunny for a treat! But it is much harder to call him off chasing other dogs! And he does that thing like Grimm when he sees another dog--he'll sit and look at me but he is constantly checking back on the other dog. He is now better (he knows the protocol) if the dog is across the street or up the street or a decent distance away but if the dog is really close then he still goes nuts. And Chama has decided that age 13 is an excellent time to become dog reactive so now I've got two of them acting out simultaneously!









I do think he will calm down as he matures. And Grimm will too. Grimm sounds like he has such a great temperament and is doing so well with his training. I think the main thing for you is to figure out how to manage him in a way that is easier for you, with your hands. Have you tried rigging something with a leash around your waist to help control him? I'm also still recommending the front clip harness. It makes a HUGE difference with Rafi in terms of my ability to control him when he starts flailing all over the place! 

Oh--and Rafi also wants to run over and kiss every person he sees. When I don't let him or the person crosses the street or something he looks sad and puzzled like, "You mean they're not a member of my fan club?"


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Ruth, I'll look into the front clip harness.. but am leery. I am petite, and Grimm is a plunging, bucking, snorting rhinocerous with fur.









Gosh I hope maturity hlps him ease up some LOL! When his intestinal issues get cleared up, we actually have a trainer at a send-away situation to send Grimm to. After a concussion and being dragged on my back into traffic, this is the only solution sensible now. But until the time he is well enough to go to send-away training, he will be working with me on this positive clicker training rutine when we see a dog.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

The front clip harness was the _only_ thing that allowed me to be able to hang onto 80 pound, solid muscle Basu. I tried a prong (he actually poked holes in his neck from taking off at full speed with it on) and a gentle leader. It allows you to control the front half of their body and if they take off with it on they basically just pull themselves back around toward you. My very petite cousin had a huge lab who was pulling her down on the ice. She tried everything. I bought her one of the Sense-ation harnesses and he never pulled her down again.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Just wanted to hop back in here and add a new suggestion (not sure if I've mentioned this before or not). I just started reading <u>Control Unleashed</u> this weekend. And I'd say, if you can, pick it up. I think a lot of the stuff covered in the book would help you work on getting Grimm under control. As I'm going through it, I can't help but think "This would be good for Grimm." (As well as "This would be good for Risa," of course.)


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Thanks Jamie.. I just ordered a few (Practical DogWhisperer by Jan Fennell, and Bones Would Rain from the Sky), and next time I order I will order the Control Unleashed, as well as the TTouch doggy DVD. That's a great suggestion. I can use all the help I can get with Grimmi-- thank you!









By the way-- We saw a dog today and, for some reason, I didn't reach into my right-side jacket pocket for a treat.. I reached into my left-side pocket, and extracted a Cuz.







Suddenly, Grimm, who had begun to hackle up and consider woofing, was suddenly "Oh-- TOYYYYY????? Gotta have that TOYYYY???" ... and so we heeled away from that one rather than working it. Some situations we just think: escape! In the end, I am still trying to break what has become a habit for Grimm.

I hope everything is going well with Ris.. you are far ahead of me, as she is able to attend classes. You two make such a super team. Where Risa is now is what I aspire to with Grimm. GO Risa!!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Toys make great rewards too! And it's always good to have a dog willing to work for both food and toys.









We do the escape thing too. I had to bail out today when I failed to notice what was going on. BAD JAMIE. I knew there was a dog behind us but I didn't realize it was the dog that runs off-leash with the guy on the bike. The dog would have been bad enough but coupled with the bike and a dude. . .it was too much for Ris. Since she kept checking behind her, I started joggin with her to get her focus back on me. Which she did. But a bike is faster than I am so they quickly caught up to us. By the time I finally recognized what was going on, all I could do was quickly pull Ris off the sidewalk into the grass. And she growl/barked and lunged. Crap. After that she was overly aroused for the rest of the walk. 

We also had to pass a parade of guys coming towards us and passing us from behind. It was too much for her. Sometimes I wish I could have control over our environment better.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Hang in there Jamie, we've all had 'bad experience' walks! The other week I was walking Grimm calmly along a street, when suddenly, two dogs, a Dalmation and a white bulldog with legs mix, burst out from a hedge next to us and began fence-fighting at Grimm! Grimm, of course, reacted, and danced along all hackle-y and tense for a good full minute after that.







And, it was NOT easy to get him disconnected from the wild energy flung at him in that high-voltage instance. But like the guy and bike and loose dog thing, then the parade of guys.... Risa has so many GOOD experiences, the bad ones don't really set her back as much as you worry they might. Consistency over time is what is making an impact on her. She is learning she has a strong leader who can handle whatever comes, she is learning she has a job to do when a dog or person comes too close, and she is so much better than she was just a year or so ago! You are making progress.







So is Risa!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Frustration on-lead reactions*

Yeah, I'm usually surprised at how this stuff _doesn't_ effect her as much long-term anymore. We were accosted by an off-leash dog on Tuesday and she was still her normal self during OB class on Wednesday. She still has her moments (don't we all) but I've seen such great improvement it gives me hope that someday I won't have to be so on guard all the time. And neither will she.









I made her work on relaxing last night too.


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