# Resource guarding



## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

I have a nine month old male Czech German Shepherd. His mother is 75% is Jerramy the rest is Czechoslovakia. I’ve always wanted a German Shepherd and did a lot of research and decided that the working Line appeared to have more solid temperament, nerves and less health problems. It was also convenient because the importer of the dog is also the trainer. I wanted a good family dog around my three children who are six, 10 and 14-year-olds. I also wanted the dog for protection , or a deterrent because I live in a nice area and there is a lot of break-ins for property crime. Overall, the dog is a wonderful dog with obedience. We have done a little bit of protection in terms of agitation and chase. he recently developed significant prey drive with tennis balls playing fetch. He appears to have a low threshold for reactivity. He is very protective. We have always noticed that he guarded his food since about 14 weeks old. He will growl and snap without making contact. The trainer used prong correction and also Exchange with high-value treats when he was a young puppy however the progress was not acceptable and he recommended leaving the dog alone when he eats which we have done. We are not experienced a German Shepherd owners. Recently we travel to our summer home and noticed that he started guarding toys. My daughter and I were in the garage sitting and my daughter decided to pet her dog while he was laying down with a toy and after about a few minutes he turned around and snapped at her without making contact. I came down on him like a Ton of bricks . We also recruited a police officer canine trainer to work with the food aggression since we thought our previous trainer did not give us good recommendations to handle it. He’s pretty good with the release command while he’s got a bone or food and he will release toys on command however, it’s hard to rely on my six and 10-year-old to be consistent with these commands. He also had a stick in the backyard and I walked up to him and started petting him and he turned stiff and showed some teeth . I corrected him and he had slight redirection on the leash. He will also growl when you touch him when he’s eating. We are currently not giving him access to toys and he releases stuff that belongs to us on command. We are exchanging chicken with bones during his meals by throwing them in his bowl but he still turns stiff when you touch him but he’s not growling or snapping. I know what you are all thinking . Why would I buy a dog like this with three young children that are crazy in the house. No matter how hard I try, I don’t trust the dog around my children. The trainer said my dog showed great discretion and not biting my daughter and I have a great dog. I find this unsatisfactory. I have also had other trainers come by and everyone recommended rehoming the dog. I am very Confused on what to do because on one hand he’s a great dog with obedience and protection of the home but I don’t seem to be able to get over resource guarding risks in my head with the potential bite of my family members or friends that come over. By the way he loves all children and all human beings. Any suggestions


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

No toys or food around ever when the kids are home. Don’t allow the dog to go near the kids toys, don’t allow the kids to eat when the dog is out. Feed in the crate and strict rule with the kids not to go near the crate. Keep crate locked not just bolted when you can’t supervise. And put crate in another room where the kids won’t bother him. just take proper precautions because kids are kids. Don’t trust how good your kids are or the fact that your boy loves them. 

This dog has given fair warning many times of what his perceptions are so it’s time to make sure that there are no opportunities for mistakes until you get this sorted out. It sounds like a combination of temperament issues and perhaps mis handled training. Also, you may have put too much emphasis on your needs for protection and not enough on your needs for rock solid temperament when you spoke to the breeder. Or it is just a mismatch through no one’s fault.

But it doesn’t sound like this dog is a good choice for a first time owner with an active young family.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Appreciate your input. I agree with what you recommend


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

There are many threads on here with excellent advice on resource guarding.Try the search function on here or even Google "resource guarding German shepherd" which will pop up other discussions on this board.
Basically what almost always happens is the more you try to correct the dog,the more he feels the need to guard.Give him zero reason to feel anxious and it almost always fades away.Feed him in his crate or in another room and don't bother him.Call him to you instead of approaching him to trade up for another toy or high value treats- then give him back the toy or stick immediately.Playing 'two ball' also reinforces the concept.Throw a toy,when he brings it back and drops it,toss a second toy.He always ALWAYS gets something when he gives something.
This has always worked for me.It sometimes takes a week and with some dogs it takes months.Get your kids on board to help,they will enjoy two ball and learn to always call and never take,always give


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

I am so sorry that you are dealing with this. You got a dog to protect you and your family and now you have to protect yourself and your kids from the dog.

This is not some starving dog off the streets where it's understandable that he would be a little tetchy about his food until he learned that he always gets enough food.

Your dog has totally wrong genetics to be a family dog.

The problem with management--like crating when eating, keeping toys away when the kids are around, etc.--is that management always fails. One of the kids pokes his fingers through the locked crate while the dog is eating. A neighbor kid tosses a ball into the yard by accident while your kids are out with the dog.

For your sake, your kids' sake, and the dog's sake, I would find this dog a good home without kids. Is his breeder a decent, responsible person you can return him to who would do this?

If he nails one of your kids, the doc you take the kid to will be required by law to report the bite to animal control, which will then land on you like a ton of bricks. The dog could be hauled off to some cesspit of a dog pound and killed by strangers after a two-week quarantine.

And if he bites someone else's kid, you could also be facing a huge lawsuit.

It's just not worth the risk.

You also might look into getting a family-friendly, calmer Malinois from Ruidoso Malinois for protection:

http://ruidosomalinois.com/

In my experience, she is completely honest about her dogs and will tell you right away if a dog is not good for your situation.

Good luck, and I wish you all the best.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Mvp said:


> I have a nine month old male Czech German Shepherd. His mother is 75% is Jerramy the rest is Czechoslovakia. I’ve always wanted a German Shepherd and did a lot of research and decided that the working Line appeared to have more solid temperament, nerves and less health problems. It was also convenient because the importer of the dog is also the trainer. I wanted a good family dog around my three children who are six, 10 and 14-year-olds. I also wanted the dog for protection , or a deterrent because I live in a nice area and there is a lot of break-ins for property crime. Overall, the dog is a wonderful dog with obedience. We have done a little bit of protection in terms of agitation and chase. he recently developed significant prey drive with tennis balls playing fetch. He appears to have a low threshold for reactivity. He is very protective. *We have always noticed that he guarded his food since about 14 weeks old. He will growl and snap without making contact. The trainer used prong correction and also Exchange with high-value treats when he was a young puppy however the progress was not acceptable and he recommended leaving the dog alone when he eats which we have done. * Huge mistake on the trainer's part. The prong color would have only made things worse.At 14 weeks old, when this issue exhibited itself, hand feeding would have been the way to go. A resource guarder needs to be desensitized. He needs to learn that you only give and never take away. And you definitely do not punish. Higher value treats would not be necessary. Hand feeding, along with obedience enhances the bond and encourages trust between human and dog.We are not experienced a German Shepherd owners. Recently we travel to our summer home and noticed that he started guarding toys. *My daughter and I were in the garage sitting and my daughter decided to pet her dog while he was laying down with a toy and after about a few minutes he turned around and snapped at her without making contact. I came down on him like a Ton of bricks . * Coming down on him like a ton of bricks will not help. A resource guarder tends to guard EVERYTHING. Now you know he guards toys. Put the toys away. Expect him to guard whatever he has. Tell him drop it, or leave it, before you approach him.We also recruited a police officer canine trainer to work with the food aggression since we thought our previous trainer did not give us good recommendations to handle it.* He’s pretty good with the release command while he’s got a bone or food and he will release toys on command* Why are you asking him to release his food or bone? They are his. You gave them to him. Leave him alone. If it's his toy, leave that alone too. He should only have to release things that are not his. Otherwise, you are just playing games that are going to make his resource guarding worse.however, it’s hard to rely on my six and 10-year-old to be consistent with these commands.* He also had a stick in the backyard and I walked up to him and started petting him and he turned stiff and showed some teeth . I corrected him and he had slight redirection on the leash. He will also growl when you touch him when he’s eating. * If he has something in his mouth, assume you need to tell him to drop it, before you touch him. Of course he growls if you touch him when he is eating. I thought you said you were leaving him alone while he eats.We are currently not giving him access to toys and he releases stuff that belongs to us on command. *We are exchanging chicken with bones during his meals by throwing them in his bowl but he still turns stiff when you touch him but he’s not growling or snapping.* Again, stop messing with him, while he's eating. There is no need to exchange food, bones, or throw anything in his bowl. Just stop.I know what you are all thinking . Why would I buy a dog like this with three young children that are crazy in the house. No matter how hard I try, I don’t trust the dog around my children. The trainer said my dog showed great discretion and not biting my daughter and I have a great dog. I find this unsatisfactory. I have also had other trainers come by and everyone recommended rehoming the dog. I am very Confused on what to do because on one hand he’s a great dog with obedience and protection of the home but I don’t seem to be able to get over resource guarding risks in my head with the potential bite of my family members or friends that come over. By the way he loves all children and all human beings. Any suggestions


 A resource guarder can be desensitized and reconditioned to learn to trust you. He needs to learn that you will NOT take his stuff away from him. That is why he guards it. He fears you are going to take it. If you do, you prove him right and all trust is destroyed. IMO, you can never completely rehab a resource guarder. I know. I have one. He was resource guarding at 12 weeks. You can never, ever let your own guard down with a resource guarder. You cannot forget and unthinkingly grab something away. So yes, he might do better in a home without children. Otherwise, it is imperative that you allow no room for accidents.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Thank you. I have a lifetime temperament warranty for return. I have watched all the videos on resource guarding and I am willing to try it for months if needed. I just think the dog genetically has a low threshold for reactivity and feels threatened. He definitely wants to fight other dogs and this morning my neighbor was walking by and the dog reacted going towards my neighbor until I grabbed him . Because I am very OCD I want to make sure I exhaust all my options, I am having a animal behaviorist PhD come by tomorrow for an evaluation. I will let you know what she says


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Mvp said:


> No matter how hard I try, I don’t trust the dog around my children. The


This is the only thing you said that stood out to me. Kids are my line in the sand. Good or bad, right or wrong you have a right as a parent to be concerned about your children. It doesn't matter if others see it your way or not, if you don't feel that your children are safe, rehome the dog.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Wow, this is really tough! :-(

I personally would find it hard to live with the mental stress of making sure everything is put away, and making sure that one of my young kids did not do something like pick up his ball while he's within sight.

Since your dog's alternative is not Death at The Shelter, but is rather a return to his breeder, I would be very tempted to do that...
and try for a proven, gentle family-friendly dog if I ever got another one.

I also agree with the "desensitization" method rather than corrections...today our dog was drinking and my daughter stood close by him and poured more water into his bowl while he was drinking, and he ignored her. He *knows* that the only reason we ever approach his bowls is to put water in or to put food in, so he feel totally unthreatened and will just keep eating/drinking even with our hands close to his bowls. We don't pet or touch him while he's eating/drinking...why should we? There are 23.75 other hours of the day when it's easy to pet him and play with him, we don't need to bother him while he's eating and drinking.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Appreciate your story of your resource guarding dog. The problem is I don’t know what he may guard and what if my kids happen to want to pet him if he has a “pencil “ next to him. It’s very hard to watch my kids and the dog all the time


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This is my brutally honest take. This dog is too much for you. You need a watch dog, who barks when something is off. You have a formidable dog at your hands that is probably better suited for more serious protection work and less suitable as a dog with young kids in an inexperienced home. He needs a home where he can thrive. I also have questions about the trainer. Don't see this as failure but as a lesson. There are nice, laid back GSDs around. For most petty criminals it is sufficient to be deterred when a dog has upright ears and barks. I don't rely on my dog for actively protecting me. She might or might not. But her looks are enough. A hard criminal will shoot her first, I am sure. I just decided not not be worried or scared but use common sense.
I would return the dog before he is worse or bites so you can enjoy your peace and harmony.


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

Sorry, wrong dog for you.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Yes he is a formidable dog. I wish more thought about placement would have taken place for a family dog/ protection dog. I think I got the first pick of the liter. I told them my house is busy and loud with kids and deliveries like the New York stock exchange . I was told they would find a dog with medium defense and prey drive. Surprisingly, the hectic household doesn’t phase him, but he’s always alert and ready to go. He gets serious quick. My friend was by a few weeks ago and was pissed off at a Wells Fargo bank teller and he was describing his interaction with the teller and telling the story to me in an angry way. My dog looked at him and started growling. I said no and it was over. We still speak that way to each other and my dog accepts it. My trainer did always tell me “ you need to train your dog down “ . I now think I know what he means


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

There are a couple of things that your pup has going for it right now. He has not bitten anyone yet. He is young. Your trainer saw something in this pup and took note that even though the pup snapped, he purposely did not connect.
Your breeder sounds like you can return him.

All of the above makes for the best position for this pup to find another more suitable home.

And then there is the down side, he is in the hands of a busy mom who is new to the breed. There are learning curves for all new owners and often times huge time consuming curves while learning how to work through the issues. How much time do you really have to devote to this pup. When your kids have to get to a sports practice or boyscouts ect or come home and surprise you with mom, I need you to do.......by tomorrow because coach called a special team meeting. But you had already sched a training session for your pup. Who gets put on hold? The pup will because a pup is not your child. 

Your willingness to give it your all and exhaust all options is admirable but if you do decide to try to train and work through it, , as you do, the pup is getting older, more methods being tried that may or may not work or be what the pup needs and as he is going though that he is also going through the “teen” stage where typically they test boundaries. His “came up the leash attempt” says to me he is already at that stage.

My personal opinion, I would contact his breeder and tell him/her what is going on what he has demonstrated (especially his attempt to come up the leash) and that you don’t feel you can trust this pup and keep your kids safe at all times. He /she probably has trainers or is a trainer herself, knows her lines and the best way, method to work the pup through it. Imho bringing in a behaviorist who may or may not know the breed or the lines would be at a disadvantage. Especially since there is still the possibility that even with more training, you will still need to manage to some extent even if successful and end up returning the pup anyways. 

I just remember how incredibly busy I was with my three. Often times having to change into my supermom suit to get all three to their clubs, sports, drs appts. That’s the physically challenging stuff, then there’s the mentally challenging things like the teen years, sibling issues, issues with peer pressure. I can’t imagine dealing with all that and trying to work through my own boys da/reactivity, teen months, training etc. I would have been a mess no good to anyone and he, don’t even want to think about where he would be at if we had gotten him at that time. 

Where does this pup who has some serious needs of his own fit in. How committed you want to be often won’t coincide with how committed you realistically can be. Your children need to come first.

Let yourself off the hook, I think you pup will do fine if put in the right home. I think your breeder is in the best position to find that home. By what you just described, he sounds like he has good/maybe great potential.

Sorry so long winded. I just got caught in a slew of thoughts.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Rehome the dog, or the children. 

That dog is more dog than you can handle, and is unsafe for your children. The best thing for the dog, and your family, is to return him to the breeder. They can generally work with the dog and place them in a home that fits the dogs needs. Because at this point, neither the dog, or your family is getting what they need. 

As others have said, using a dog for home protection is a lark. Unless the have been extensively trained in PP. invest in home security systems and don’t rely on a dog to do it for you.

We have 3, and I would never expect them to prevent someone breaking in or harming me. I think they are a deterrent for someone wanting to do a smash and grab, but someone bent on robbing you or harming you are not going to be intimidated by a barking dog. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I just wanted to add that my resource guarder is now seven years old and much, much better than he used to be. Still not perfect and never will be. In addition, my resource guarder is a 30 pound hound mix. My shepherd doesn't have a mean bone in her body.

My kids are grown. The youngest was 14, when we adopted the resource guarder. The dog was always manageable, because I didn't have young children. I expected my older kids to understand respecting the dogs' threshold. Were my kids young, this dog definitely would not have been a good fit for our family. As others have said, "Kids first." There is no shame in admitting your family and the dog are not a good match. At the end of the day, you both deserve better.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Mvp said:


> Yes he is a formidable dog. I wish more thought about placement would have taken place for a family dog/ protection dog. I think I got the first pick of the liter. I told them my house is busy and loud with kids and deliveries like the New York stock exchange . I was told they would find a dog with medium defense and prey drive. Surprisingly, the hectic household doesn’t phase him, but he’s always alert and ready to go. He gets serious quick. My friend was by a few weeks ago and was pissed off at a Wells Fargo bank teller and he was describing his interaction with the teller and telling the story to me in an angry way. My dog looked at him and started growling. I said no and it was over. We still speak that way to each other and my dog accepts it. My trainer did always tell me “ you need to train your dog down “ . I now think I know what he means


And this dog is ONLY 9 months old. This is just the start. Fasten your seat belt! Have you realized your liability? Is he included in your home owners insurance? Be wise. I think you know what to do based on this last post.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

This dog is young and would likely thrive in a serious working home. Best to do it now before a real bite happens and a difficult decision needs to be made. I have seen even experienced trainers rehome a dog that they could not handle or just didn't enjoy dealing with. A female likely would have been a safer decision. This dog likely would do best in a very structured training oriented home. Everybody wants a good protection dog but the qualities that go along with that don't fit into every household.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mvp said:


> Thank you. I have a lifetime temperament warranty for return. I have watched all the videos on resource guarding and I am willing to try it for months if needed. I just think the dog genetically has a low threshold for reactivity and feels threatened. He definitely wants to fight other dogs and this morning my neighbor was walking by and the dog reacted going towards my neighbor until I grabbed him . Because I am very OCD I want to make sure I exhaust all my options, I am having a animal behaviorist PhD come by tomorrow for an evaluation. I will let you know what she says


Here's my advice - call your breeder. This is not the right dog for you. You needed a nicely balanced dog and a dog with a high amount of Czech is not that dog. The Czech working lines were bred to guard the border. High suspicion, high fight. I love them. But I WANT a working dog.

Second, skip the PhD and find a trainer that trains these dogs. Find a police department K9 trainer or a Schutzhund club trainer. 

click on the regions for clubs
https://www.germanshepherddog.com/events-new/


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Do NOT neuter him before you give him back to your breeder. Neutering won't fix this issue anyways as being intact is not the problem.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Yes I read the research trials. Agree with no Neutering


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Do you have his pedigree? I would love to see it if you can PM it to me.

I just want to stress that "resource guarding" is possession. It's instinct. And I don't agree that it's based in fear. If I have a chocolate bar and someone tries to take it from me, I'm going to be angry. It's MINE. I OWN it. That's not fear. That's possession. Can it be fear? Yes. But this dog doesn't sound fearful. He sounds angry.

When you have a dog that is bred to guard the borders of a country, for generations has been bred to have a higher level of aggression and suspicion, and you plunk him in suburbia and then try to take his chocolate bar....nothing good is going to come from that.

I do agree that you have to earn his trust. My young female has high possession. She's not coming back with anything in her mouth and she's not opening her mouth. BUT she's never shown aggression with me. I work on a lot of trading, two ball, and let her know that I"m not just going to take something. Her sister was growling at a young age. Her owner worked on building that trust in different ways. Neither of these girls are guarding out of fear. It's straight up YOU WILL NOT TAKE MY BALL.

But I also think he's not in the right home. He can be trained but his genetic instincts will always be there.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> When you have a dog that is bred to guard the borders of a country, for generations has been bred to have a higher level of aggression and suspicion, and you plunk him in suburbia and then try to take his chocolate bar....nothing good is going to come from that.
> He can be trained but his genetic instincts will always be there.


OP, this is so very true. He could be the loaded gun in your home.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Appreciate everyone commenting. I feel like I have contributed to making his food aggression worse after reading your inputs. The latest trainer did correct with a prong collar. He is a police canine trainer. The trainer at my permanent residence did prong correction initially and recommended dropping food in his bowl and walking away. I would have never guessed that my dog would snap at my 10 year old while being pet on the head while he had a toy. I am wondering if improper training of resource guarding , lead my dog to protect the toy . In any event, we had the dog behavioral list come by today and she feels that my dog is very easily excitable with barking and protection. She feels like he may have a component of fear. I agree with the groups comments that it wasn’t much help. She did feel that it was a bad match keeping the dog with my family. I reached out to the breeder and told him I would like to expedite the return of my dog and he agreed reluctantly to take the dog back . He stated that all dogs have resource guarding and this is normal behavior. He feels like I should’ve listened to him and work through the issues with dropping food in his bowl and desensitizing him and playing fetch with toys in his possession. My gut feeling is the dog has wrong genetics for my family as mentioned by other commentators. He is a formidable dog. I can’t live with this stress daily wondering if my dog is going to mess up. I have decided to return him early next week and thank you for your help


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Mvp, I know this is heartbreaking from my own experience. I am sure most of us have ended up with the wrong match at some point and we wish we never had to do that. It is wisdom, not failure to return him so your family and the dog can have a successful life. I am sending you my heartfelt thoughts. You will be happy after the initial pain. Be well.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I think it's really crappy of the breeder to say it's your fault. And no not all dogs resource guard. 

I know this isn't the outcome you were hoping for, and I know it's hard. But I absolutely agree that I think in the long run you and your family will be happier. Wishing you peace.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, like Jax said, resource guarding is instinct. It is about survival. Sure, some things we do can make it worse, but it doesn't cause the guarding in the first place. Some dogs will be resource guarders and some won't.

I remember my first family puppy. I put my hands in her bowl. I picked her bowl up. I dropped food in her bowl - all to prevent her from being a resource guarder. My kids were young and I needed to ensure she was a safe dog. Well - stupid me. I was ignorant of the fact that those are the 'what not to do' things. Fortunately for me, that puppy was not, nor ever would have been a resource guarder. It wasn't in her. I did no harm.

Please rest assured that you didn't cause your dog to be a resource guarder. The instinct was already there.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Thank you


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Agree with Sabis Mom, that breeder knows his dogs and shouldn't have sold you one to start with. Don't feel guilty but push through.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I offer the same sentiments as Wolfe dog and the others. And please don’t beat yourself up with questions wondering of the what if. You did nothing wrong and did what was right, hired a trainer to help you. Learning as we go is the best we can do when new at something. You are a good person.

When it’s time, I hope you find that perfect pup that fits right in


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

I've got a resource guarder. He's 18 months old. (I feel like I'm at a AA meeting or something. "Hi, I'm John. I have a resource guarder." "Hi John!") About a year ago, we were playing fetch in the backyard. On a break, I reached in to pick up the frisbee and he bit me and drew blood. It was fast. I was surprised. Later that afternoon, when I went to feed him his dinner meal, he must've had some of that residual "feeling" and bit my hand while I was putting down his food. Twice in a day. Again, I was surprised. For a long while after that, he would growl at me if I didn't put his food down fast enough. I couldn't get near his bone. Or his toys.

It's been a year now. I've been working on him since he bit me. He's much better now. Doesn't growl at me when I place his bowl down. Allows me to pet him while he eats. I can take his toys away. I haven't tried a raw bone in a year so I don't know how that will turn out. That's a high value treat so he may give me some "attitude." But overall, much better.

It's a long process and takes some effort. There isn't an instant fix for this. You have to be willing to do the work. What I did...as far as getting close to him while he was eating...I would walk by him 5 - 10 times pretending I was doing something else. When he got used to me doing that and stopped growling at me, I would then up the ante and walk by and barely touch him with a slide of my hand on his back. Then, I would literally step over him to get to the other side. He got used to that. Eventually, he would allow me so close that I would throw high value treats into his bowl while he was eating...every meal. He realized that I wasn't reaching in to steal his bowl but to offer yummier foods. I also from time to time, hand fed his meals. All small steps. You do it until he gets used to it, then move to the next step. This whole thing took months. 

When I was playing fetch, I figured out myself that I had to use more than 1 ball/frisbee. Like someone above said, he gets one for giving back one. Sometimes it's still hard to get him to give up a ball/frisbee. But during the year of training, I also taught him to "drop it" and "leave it." As long as I have another one in my hand, he'll drop it automatically. If we're just playing with just one, he'll drop it with some coaxing, but again...it's a work in progress and he's shown much improvement. He used to bite my whole hand if I had a treat. I've taught him "gently" and he will take it gently with his front teeth.

I once commented here in the forums about his resource guarding problems some time last year after the incidents...and most everyone said, "just don't bother him when he's eating. Put the bowl down and walk away." If I did that, I wouldn't have been able to work on it. If you want to keep your dog, you have to set boundaries for your dog AND your children. You have to put in the time and work. You have to realize that you may have set backs. The time and work is also about bonding with you and getting him to understand you and your house rules. But if you stay the course, things should get better. They (yours and mine) will always be resource guarders but with work they can be very manageable. 

Another option, is to do a long term board (not these 2-week b&t) and train with a reputable trainer. Get back a dog that is more manageable.

Having said all that...your problem is that you have 3 young children. Most children that young are dumb (no offense). They'll do things that you told them not to do. You may tell your kid not to touch the dog while he's eating and the next day, your kid will touch the dog. So I'm probably going to agree with everyone and say that maybe you have to rehome him and get a dog that is "friendlier." By the way, resource guarding isn't limited to GSDs. Other breeds have the same problems too. My friend's Lab was more vicious than my pup. Anyway, good luck...and keep us updated please.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> I reached out to the breeder and told him I would like to expedite the return of my dog and he agreed reluctantly to take the dog back . He stated that all dogs have resource guarding and this is normal behavior. He feels like I should’ve listened to him and work through the issues with dropping food in his bowl and desensitizing him and playing fetch with toys in his possession. My gut feeling is the dog has wrong genetics for my family as mentioned by other commentators. He is a formidable dog. I can’t live with this stress daily wondering if my dog is going to mess up. I have decided to return him early next week and thank you for your help


 You have made a very wise decision. I am sorry the breeder is being a jerk about it. Lots of dogs do NOT resource guard. The greediest Lab I know will peaceably let kids and other dogs swipe his food and then look imploringly at his owner, saying "See? They took my food, now you have to give me more." Which his owner does. (Some Labs are horrible resource guarders, though.)

There is nothing you could have done to make this dog a safe family dog. You did not fail as a dog owner. It's not that he is "too much dog" for you or too "formidable." He has the wrong genes to be a family dog. He's a totally wrong match for you and your family. So please do not let the breeder make you feel guilty about this.

It's sort of like a lady who marries a guy who turns out to be a gambling partying man. If she is a gambling partying woman with no kids, it might be a great match. But if she is a steady working woman with kids who likes staying home in the evenings, it will be a terrible match. It's not that the guy is "too much man" for her or that she is a failure as a wife.

You will still need a good dog for protection, and I recommend that you get an adult dog instead of a puppy. It will cost more but puppies are a total crapshoot. Just make sure that the adult was not returned to the breeder because of behavior issues. Unfortunately, many breeders will lie about this. The last GSD adult return I looked into for a client was returned because he tried to kill a sweet family dog he grew up with, for no reason other than genetic aggression that flipped on at the age of two years. My client did not get the dog.

Again, I recommend Ruidoso Malinois because she often has calmer family-friendly adults and she is totally honest about whether her dogs are a good match for you. This kind of honesty is rare in the dog world. If I had a buck for every time a dog seller lied to me about a dog, I would be an extremely wealthy man.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

@tc68 If I could superLike your post, I would! It is a practical guide to overcoming resource guarding. 

I love that your dog went from one who would bite you, to one will now allow you to stroke his back and put your hands near his food, etc.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

GSDchoice said:


> @tc68 If I could superLike your post, I would! It is a practical guide to overcoming resource guarding.
> 
> I love that your dog went from one who would bite you, to one will now allow you to stroke his back and put your hands near his food, etc.


Thanks. I appreciate that. My whole point of that was that it can be "fixed." Just need a lot of patience, time, and effort. By the way, I also use a prong collar. But where I think the OP and his trainer went wrong is trying to correct resource guarding on a months old puppy with a pop of the prong. My own obedience class trainer said the same thing....to pop the prong as many times as it takes to get the dog to submit. I tried it once and I found it made my puppy angrier and besides I didn't want my dog to be "beaten into submission." I felt like I was abusing my dog doing that. So I decided to go a different route and try things that would make him trust me more and not fear me. I tried to read up or do my own research about this, but I didn't find anything that I really liked. So I decided to take little pieces of the different strategies to form my own battle plan. The key is...little steps at a time.

One more thing, my 86 year old mother used to happily feed his dinner meals every day and when he started to growl at her (she stopped feeding him which broke my heart because I loved that my Mom wanted to bond with him too), that was when I decided to work on the problem and not "drop the bowl and walk away" like some people here and others suggested. That doesn't help solve the problem. You're just kicking the can down the road. And as my dog was getting bigger, I certainly didn't want him still exhibiting that behavior. A 6 months old GSD with resource guarding behavior is much different than a 6 years old with the same. The other thing was I knew if I "buried my head in the sand" and not worked on the problem, there would be an incident and then I would have to give up the dog or put him down or whatever. The thought of that was hard to deal with because he was already a part of the family and we've all become attached to him. The "fixing" isn't done...it's a work in progress. But I'm happy with what I've accomplished so far. If someone is really interested in knowing what I did, pm me or just ask. I'll be more than happy to share. Just remember, I'm no expert. I just did things that worked for my dog and me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mvp said:


> He stated that all dogs have resource guarding and this is normal behavior. He feels like I should’ve listened to him and work through the issues with dropping food in his bowl and desensitizing him and playing fetch with toys in his possession.


Yes. This is exactly what I would have done and DO with my young girl.



Mvp said:


> My gut feeling is the dog has wrong genetics for my family as mentioned by other commentators. He is a formidable dog. I can’t live with this stress daily wondering if my dog is going to mess up. I have decided to return him early next week and thank you for your help


And YES. He's just not the right fit for your family and lifestyle. He should be in a working home where he can become what he was meant to be. And you need to get a lower drive, lower possession dog that is balanced to meet your needs.

There is no shame in any of this. Don't feel guilty for doing right by the dog or by your family.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Mvp said:


> Appreciate everyone commenting. I feel like I have contributed to making his food aggression worse after reading your inputs. The latest trainer did correct with a prong collar. He is a police canine trainer. The trainer at my permanent residence did prong correction initially and recommended dropping food in his bowl and walking away. I would have never guessed that my dog would snap at my 10 year old while being pet on the head while he had a toy. I am wondering if improper training of resource guarding , lead my dog to protect the toy . In any event, we had the dog behavioral list come by today and she feels that my dog is very easily excitable with barking and protection. She feels like he may have a component of fear. I agree with the groups comments that it wasn’t much help. She did feel that it was a bad match keeping the dog with my family. I reached out to the breeder and told him I would like to expedite the return of my dog and he agreed reluctantly to take the dog back . He stated that all dogs have resource guarding and this is normal behavior. He feels like I should’ve listened to him and work through the issues with dropping food in his bowl and desensitizing him and playing fetch with toys in his possession. My gut feeling is the dog has wrong genetics for my family as mentioned by other commentators. He is a formidable dog. I can’t live with this stress daily wondering if my dog is going to mess up. I have decided to return him early next week and thank you for your help


I wouldn't fault the breeder at all Mvp. As I read through this, I think you actually got what you asked him for. Rotdoc and Jax said it pretty well. There's a lot of things you have to just experience. Now you'll have a better idea of what to ask and look for. Good luck.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I still would love to see the pedigree.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Upon further digging, I was told by people in Europe close to the matter that “” our type of dogs need to be in an outdoor kennel and not in the home to minimize territorial conflicts“. I admit I am not experienced in handling German Shepherd dogs, but the trainer/importer knew my family situation with three young children and probably should’ve been more realistic knowing the temperament of these dogs. He also told me that no 10-year-old child or any child should walk up to a family dog and pet the dog when he has a toy. Try preventing that in a busy household . Yes I feel guilty with my decision because there is 98% great behavior out of this dog. He is an excellent watchdog. Am I correct by saying that the bad 2% in a dog that’s going to be 100 to 110 pounds with a history of snapping at my daughter is concerning? From what I gather here, it never really is curable and Has to be managed throughout life. This is going to be hard with young children


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Jax, for respect of parties and to be respectful and professional I cannot disclose the breeder or Pedegree. I however studied your comments very closely and appreciate your expertise


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Listen - there is nothing "bad" in this dog. It's not something to be "cured". It's not something to be "managed" It's not a defect. Working sport people, K9 officers - all would probably love this dog. Our breed is supposed to have aggression. Supposed to have possession. Some dogs have been bred with more of that. 

This is simply a dog in the wrong home. Yes, the traits he is showing in a home where people don't want that and don't know what to do with that is concerning. It's a recipe for disaster and it's neither your fault nor the dog.

People in Europe raise their working dogs differently than we do here. Are you in the states? Why did you import from Europe? Soooo many good dogs right here. My boy's breeder has some great females available in a litter right now, the dam is my boy's sister. 

Are you sending this dog back to Europe? Who is he going back to?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Temperament is a package of things. You don't always get an exact measure of any single piece. There's ways to train and influence even that 2% you're thinking of, but sometimes, maybe not, or at least not so easily. Yeah, there's kennel dogs and dogs that come out of the womb respectful of kids. There's a lot of opinions, preferences, and just simply likes vs dislikes. I have 2. The older one is one of those born respectful of kids dogs. Been perfect with my family since he walked in, but I don't trust him with strangers in the house and I don't plan on trying to change that. Thats my preference. Is this the first dog you've tried raising with your family?


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

No , I’m returning in states Jax. Your statements all makes sense because my German Shepherd protection training group all seem to want that aggression and possession. However, I am the only one with small children in the group.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

First large dog I’ve tried for the family. I have had boxers before prior to my family


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh Boy. We had Boxers. So very very very different. But our one female Boxer is the one that would bite you if you messed with her boy. Have you looked at getting a working line Boxer?


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Jax, no I haven’t. I’m still fixated if I can salvage my current situation . Seems like everybody says it’s not a good decision because I have little children in the home. Wrong genetics but not necessarily the dogs fault


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Mvp said:


> Upon further digging, I was told by people in Europe close to the matter that “” our type of dogs need to be in an outdoor kennel and not in the home to minimize territorial conflicts“. I admit I am not experienced in handling German Shepherd dogs, but the trainer/importer knew my family situation with three young children and probably should’ve been more realistic knowing the temperament of these dogs. He also told me that no 10-year-old child or any child should walk up to a family dog and pet the dog when he has a toy. Try preventing that in a busy household . Yes I feel guilty with my decision because there is 98% great behavior out of this dog. He is an excellent watchdog. Am I correct by saying that the bad 2% in a dog that’s going to be 100 to 110 pounds with a history of snapping at my daughter is concerning? From what I gather here, it never really is curable and Has to be managed throughout life. This is going to be hard with young children


You seem to be getting really bad info. There may be some dogs not suited to be pets but the BREED STANDARD originally called for a dog that was a family dog. Specifically NOT kept kenneled away from the family and one that could be trusted to be mindful of the WHOLE family children included. 
I say again, the breeder mismatched this particular dog. Whether through communication error or poor judgement I would never place a dog in a home with children that needed small children to remember rules in order to be safe. That is insane.
Not ALL dogs resource guard, not all dogs by a long shot. Is it more common in working lines? Perhaps. But of 6 dogs from the same line that lived with me for varying lengths of time only one displayed any resource guarding at all. And they were definitely WL dogs, and dogs that worked. 
I believe the issue could be corrected and/or managed, I would not even try with kids in the house. I don't think the dog is bad or defective but he certainly does not belong in your home situation. I do not believe you did anything wrong. I don't think anyone caused this.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Big no on Ruidoso Malinois. Google it. 

You are far more likely to find a GSD breeder who can produce a solid-social family type dog than a malinois breeder. Malinois that don't have the drives for work skew toward skittish/fearful far too easily. A solid-social- driven malinois is an incredible companion and working animal, but you more than likely won't get one of these unless you are deep in the working dog world and know the right people.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Mvp said:


> First large dog I’ve tried for the family. I have had boxers before prior to my family


At 9mos old, you've missed opportunities to shape a lot of things that are easier at 7weeks then they will be at now, especially because things have become a little bit on the established side with him. If its something you want to do, you can change his perception of things with your family, but if it was me instead of the idea you can make him suddenly love and respect your kids, my focus would be more along the lines of showing him how to behave period looking to kind of reset his attitude, then reintroduce interacting with the kids. If he's obedient, it can give you a chance to see how it goes. Don't swing too far with trying to correct him for things. Don't fall into a routine of constantly trying to stop things. Spend your time showing him whats correct.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Even if your kids were absolutely trustworthy not to ever pat him while with a toy etc, you could not guarantee that one of their friends wouldn’t. This kind of temperament would absolutely dampen the natural laughter, exuberance, tumbles and wrestling that comes with kids and their friends. You would be giving up a lot and Looking back at what was missed due to the need for management. 

Parental gut instinct is extremely reliable with no apologies required.

I’m not in the rehome or return by nature but will reiterate you are making the right decision for your family.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Saco said:


> Big no on Ruidoso Malinois. Google it.
> 
> You are far more likely to find a GSD breeder who can produce a solid-social family type dog than a malinois breeder. Malinois that don't have the drives for work skew toward skittish/fearful far too easily. A solid-social- driven malinois is an incredible companion and working animal, but you more than likely won't get one of these unless you are deep in the working dog world and know the right people.


You don't want a Mal. I've been around nice, social, friendly Mals, but the things that have been a problem with your Shepherd are more likely to be an even bigger problem with a Mal. More like what Jax has mentioned, they aren't wrong, but it won't be something you'll like.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> At 9mos old, you've missed opportunities to shape a lot of things that are easier at 7weeks then they will be at now, especially because things have become a little bit on the established side with him. If its something you want to do, you can change his perception of things with your family, but if it was me instead of the idea you can make him suddenly love and respect your kids, my focus would be more along the lines of showing him how to behave period looking to kind of reset his attitude, then reintroduce interacting with the kids. If he's obedient, it can give you a chance to see how it goes. Don't swing too far with trying to correct him for things. Don't fall into a routine of constantly trying to stop things. Spend your time showing him whats correct.


Steve, there are three little kids involved. Your advice would work for a dog-savvy, assertive owner without kids running around in a family. Too much risk involved here. If the OP has decided to re-home the dog, we won't help her by making her feel guilty with the 'what ifs' and 'should haves'.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, I sent you a PM.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Mvp said:


> He also told me that no 10-year-old child or any child should walk up to a family dog and pet the dog when he has a toy. Try preventing that in a busy household . Yes I feel guilty with my decision because there is 98% great behavior out of this dog. He is an excellent watchdog. Am I correct by saying that the bad 2% in a dog that’s going to be 100 to 110 pounds with a history of snapping at my daughter is concerning? From what I gather here, it never really is curable and Has to be managed throughout life. This is going to be hard with young children


I'm sure it is an agonizing decision, but it sounds like you're doing the right thing. Far better to prevent an accident than to deal with the aftermath. Most likely your dog wouldn't have much of a chance if he acquired a history of biting children. Not to mention the damage that could be done to your daughter/children. Hopefully the breeder will be able to re-home into a situation that is more suited to him.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Steve, there are three little kids involved. Your advice would work for a dog-savvy, assertive owner without kids running around in a family. Too much risk involved here. If the OP has decided to re-home the dog, we won't help her by making her feel guilty with the 'what ifs' and 'should haves'.





> I’m still fixated if I can salvage my current situation .


He, or she should have something to think about when they make these decisions. Information is what they're looking for. I raised 3 kids with dogs, the OP is a capable adult. I'm comfortable discussing different possibilities, good and bad. I'm of the opinion that they'll understand whether its something they can and want to do.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, 20 some years ago, I was considering getting our first family dog. I had two kids at the time. They were 2 and 6 years old. A family member had been handed a young adult Springer Spaniel. Having asthma, he was unable to keep the dog. I took her. She lasted less than 24 hours in my home. My two year old walked to her, saying her name. The dog growled right in my child's face. Nope! She was out of here. Another family member, with no young kids, took the dog and had her for the rest of her life. Dang dog bit him multiple times. Well, bless his heart. Better him, than my 2 year old.

So I repeat.... Kids first. Always!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Mvp said:


> He also told me that no 10-year-old child or any child should walk up to a family dog and pet the dog when he has a toy. Try preventing that in a busy household .


Just to clarify this a little, there's a huge difference in a dog giving something vs you taking something. One idea for shaping behavior between a kid and a dog, is the dog brings it to the kid, and gives it to him. Not the kid goes to the dog and takes it. Its just one of those subtle ways you create a better perception in the dog of his place compared to a kid. Absolutely easier at 7 weeks then 9mos.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And I'm not taking a position either way Mvp. What I'm talking about is a lot of work and you have to be realistic about what the end result may be. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to do all this. For me, it can be as simple as "If I don't like it, I'm not going to do it" It sounds like you're going back and forth, so discussing it to make a decision is why your here, right?


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Mvp said:


> ...My German Shepherd protection training group all seem to want that aggression and possession. However, I am the only one with small children in the group.


Any chance someone in your club would be interested in him?


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Returning the dog to the breeder tomorrow at noon. I have a four hour drive. Good news is my friend is coming for support. Kids already crying but understand, surpringly. My police officer k9 Trainor wants to bring a balanced police gsd by for a day to show my family what a balanced dog is really like . I might take him up on the offer. Just to see.I will say every one of you are great people. Great support here!


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

He sounds like a nice working dog.

Returning him to the breeder is the easiest option. Keeping him means stepping up OB, management, and changing your lifestyle with the dog. It's totally doable, and in a way that would keep everyone safe- but make sure this is a project you want to take on with three young kids already. 

There are some really nice young adult shepherds in rescue that would be completely safe with young children and a good deterrent just with the look and barking alert. The first shepherd I adopted fit that description and while she wasn't going to be a top sport dog, she was still a great shepherd and I trusted her without question with any human of any age. "Genetic" obedience and eagerness to please. Excellent family dog. 

Also, it sounds like there are mounting problems if this dog is dog-aggressive, human reactive, and carries what sounds like some handler aggression- just not a good fit.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Mvp, I am so sorry it came to this. I understand how difficult this decision was and how painful it is for your family. You are doing the right thing. In the long run, I am sure you and your dog will be much happier. There is a better match out there for both of you.

HUGS!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you should also visit clubs and breeders to really see different dogs before you choose another.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> my German Shepherd protection training group all seem to want that aggression and possession. However, I am the only one with small children in the group.


Excellent point. This is why is why a club is the wrong place to look for a suitable GSD--they want the traits that are a disaster for you and your family. Club members often have contempt for a solid family GSD who is not a sports maniac. If you want a solid family GSD that can protect, get one from a breeder who aims to produce these kinds of GSDs. You might give Patchwork Shepherds a try, although they almost never have adults available. This is a good sign--they take their dogs back if needed but people are not unhappy with their dogs and returning them.

Patchwork Shepherds

Good luck, and I hope all goes well with the return.

BTW, I no longer have little kids running around all the time, just occasional grandkids, but I still would not want a dog like the one you are so sensibly returning to the breeder. Others would, and that's fine. But I think a dog should be a joy, a compatible treasured companion, not an incompatible nightmare.

Your kids are lucky to have you as a mom, your soon-to-be-returned dog is lucky to have you as an owner who understands that he needs a different home, and your future family-friendly dog will be lucky to have you and your family as his home. Good luck, and God bless.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Jax, I will do that. I’m interested in seeing this police dog next week that my police k9 trainer says is balanced. He said my Child can take his food bowl and hit him in the head and he would just look at her calmly. He says the dog is extremely well-balanced. It will be interesting to see different temperaments and I agree with you. Any thoughts on a three-year-old police dog that did not make the Academy because there was not enough gusto in the dog?


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> You don't want a Mal. I've been around nice, social, friendly Mals, but the things that have been a problem with your Shepherd are more likely to be an even bigger problem with a Mal. More like what Jax has mentioned, they aren't wrong, but it won't be something you'll like.


I don't want most Mals either, but I've known four of them I would have taken in a heartbeat--wonderful, family-friendly, stable dogs. But their owners wouldn't have sold them for any price. And if I ever buy a Mal, I would most likely buy one from Ruidoso,


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mvp said:


> Any thoughts on a three-year-old police dog that did not make the Academy because there was not enough gusto in the dog?


No, I have no thoughts on that. And really, neither should you at this point without meeting him. Not enough gusto could mean many different things.

Where are you located at? Someone here could recommend breeders and clubs for you to meet.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> Any thoughts on a three-year-old police dog that did not make the Academy because there
> was not enough gusto in the dog?


You might want to check him out. The best dog I ever had was kicked out of two police departments because he would not bite people just because he was told to. No real danger, no bite. But he protected me and my girlfriend multiple times and was 100% trustworthy in public. He had judgment--a rare trait in GSDs today.

However, it's possible that the "no-gusto" PD is fearful or a nervebag, so have him carefully evaluated if you do consider him.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> You seem to be getting really bad info. There may be some dogs not suited to be pets but the BREED STANDARD originally called for a dog that was a family dog. Specifically NOT kept kenneled away from the family and one that could be trusted to be mindful of the WHOLE family children included.
> I say again, the breeder mismatched this particular dog. Whether through communication error or poor judgement I would never place a dog in a home with children that needed small children to remember rules in order to be safe. That is insane.
> Not ALL dogs resource guard, not all dogs by a long shot. Is it more common in working lines? Perhaps. But of 6 dogs from the same line that lived with me for varying lengths of time only one displayed any resource guarding at all. And they were definitely WL dogs, and dogs that worked.
> I believe the issue could be corrected and/or managed, I would not even try with kids in the house. I don't think the dog is bad or defective but he certainly does not belong in your home situation. I do not believe you did anything wrong. I don't think anyone caused this.


Bravo! Very well said indeed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Mvp said:


> Jax, I will do that. I’m interested in seeing this police dog next week that my police k9 trainer says is balanced. He said my Child can take his food bowl and hit him in the head and he would just look at her calmly. He says the dog is extremely well-balanced. It will be interesting to see different temperaments and I agree with you. Any thoughts on a three-year-old police dog that did not make the Academy because there was not enough gusto in the dog?


If a dog washes out, I wouldn't want him. Right now I don't think you want something that's kinda hard to figure out. You may have to spend a lot of time figuring out what it is this dog can't handle, which is pretty close to what you had with the first one.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Mvp said:


> Jax, I will do that. I’m interested in seeing this police dog next week that my police k9 trainer says is balanced. He said my Child can take his food bowl and hit him in the head and he would just look at her calmly. He says the dog is extremely well-balanced. It will be interesting to see different temperaments and I agree with you. Any thoughts on a three-year-old police dog that did not make the Academy because there was not enough gusto in the dog?


You need to realize by buying a balanced dog (whatever that is), you are buying the product of intense training. This could have masked genetic flaws that can pop up if you give him a pet life unless you keep up the training, classes, exercise, mental stimulation. Please get away from the police dog /working lines if you want a regular pet GSD. Consider giving up your dog a lesson that you don't want to repeat. Sorry. Are you set on GSDs? What about a Collie (smooth or rough). They are kind and sensitive but protective when needed and make great pets.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I think the right GSD is always a good choice. But I think that at this time it would be productive and educational to spend time talking to breeders AND owners. Spend time at shows, events and trials. Ask at local vet clinics if they are seeing any GSD's that they like, because vets see them at their worst a lot. Heck, stop owners on the street. Lots of breeders on FB and the like. 
There is NO reason why a GSD cannot be a family dog! None. But you need to be honest with yourself and the breeder, and find a breeder who lives with what they produce. Imports and brokers might be the right choice for some things but a hard NO when you are looking for a dog that is essentially a family pet. Breeders who keep what they produce, who work a dog they created to an end goal, who have generations of their product underfoot, who put hands on every pup, every day. Those are the ones you want.

Rescues only work if they are foster based, especially with this breed because they tend to display either over the top or not at all behaviors in kennel environments and they don't cope well with losing their people.

Post your area and the forum members can certainly point you in the right direction.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My 2 cents .....

I have some advantage as I spoke to OP long long before he got the dog - I know where the dog came from....at that time advised caution and full disclosure to the broker.....but an 8 week old pup is cute and not always easy to read for even the most experienced or ethical breeder.....

It was imported by a broker - the breeder is not even who the OP was told was the breeder but another kennel....I know the pedigree ........I personally have met and spent time with a couple dogs IN the pedigree....FWIW - the dog is less than 40% Czech - mostly WGWL....

There are huge red flags for issues like these in the pedigree...the dog is definitely a product of his genetics..and no child should be put in danger in favor of "management" or "training" with a dog like this.....

I am pleasantly pleased to see most posts supporting the return of the dog. The broker will have this dog placed in a heartbeat with a much more suitable situation. I applaud the OP for his common sense, even as I know how hard it is for him personally, in returning the dog.


Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> I think the right GSD is always a good choice.


 AGREE - with research and caution!





Sabis mom said:


> SNIP
> 
> Post your area and the forum members can certainly point you in the right direction.


I see the process of recommendations here very very very flawed - pretty photos of huge commercial operations do not mean that a breeder is "good".....cliques are as bad here as in jr. high school.....there are some very very opinionated people who have nothing on which to base their opinions but some stupid high school level mean girl feud!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@wolfstraum, hate to put you on the spot but is resource guarding really as common as it seems? And are GSD's really not good with children?

I am only asking because it seems that there have been a lot of these issues lately and in my, limited, experience I have seen resource guarding in a very small number and great with kids for the most part.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I guess it is less likely to hear success stories here when it comes to resource guarding. Another reason could be the fascination with the sable coated, Czech and DDR lines, that (from what I have learned) tends to produce more intense temperament, which seems too much for the average family with children. Not to the dogs' fault but by underestimating what is needed to channel these drives. I know for sure that if I had Deja during the time that we had small children, she would not have been the dog she is now. If people are so keen on a protective dog, watch your children and get a more forgiving dog.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> @wolfstraum, hate to put you on the spot but is resource guarding really as common as it seems? And are GSD's really not good with children?
> 
> I am only asking because it seems that there have been a lot of these issues lately and in my, limited, experience I have seen resource guarding in a very small number and great with kids for the most part.



I think there are too many people breeding dogs who have little to no understanding of pedigrees, who only look for how many WUSV/BSP names are in a match or who just breed for the sake of convenience (close by, in club etc)...and people who make excuses for undesirable behavior.....

There was an article in a USCA magazine 15+ years ago - Ricardo Carajabal (sp??) wrote it: he had visited with one or both of the Martin brothers....there was one quote (said by one of the Martin brothers) that has stuck with me through the years....."if a dog so much as lifted a lip at a child, it did not see the next sunrise".............we have become too soft hearted, too complacent, too emotionally invested to be objective and critical of breeding animals. Our priorities have become warped - winning instead of soundness is valued! Breeders are more concerned with quanitity and PR than quality and discernment in selling puppies.


Lee


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> I think there are too many people breeding dogs who have little to no understanding of pedigrees, who only look for how many WUSV/BSP names are in a match or who just breed for the sake of convenience (close by, in club etc)...and people who make excuses for undesirable behavior.....
> 
> There was an article in a USCA magazine 15+ years ago - Ricardo Carajabal (sp??) wrote it: he had visited with one or both of the Martin brothers....there was one quote (said by one of the Martin brothers) that has stuck with me through the years....."if a dog so much as lifted a lip at a child, it did not see the next sunrise".............we have become too soft hearted, too complacent, too emotionally invested to be objective and critical of breeding animals. Our priorities have become warped - winning instead of soundness is valued! Breeders are more concerned with quanitity and PR than quality and discernment in selling puppies.
> 
> Lee


Bravo! Truer words were never spoken!

As a trainer, I've lost count of how many times I've had to help a heartbroken family with a fancy-pedigree GSD that they paid a mint for, and which is a hyper idiot or nutso aggressive.

I remember the old days when many GSDs had what I call the kid gene--a genetic temperament that prevents the dog from harming any child, even if the kid swipes his food or toy, pokes him in the eye, gives him a strangling hug, or whatever.

And yet many folks have contempt for me because my specialty is family/companion dog training and not sport dog training. I have nothing against dog sports, but I think kids matter more than sport titles.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I have two small children, a two-year-old and an almost 4-year-old. I couldn't be any more pleased with how Asher and Levi (WGSL and white shepherd) have behaved around our kids. I supervise when they are together, of course, and practice common sense, but the GSDs have never showed any worrisome or inappropriate behavior. I love working line dogs. However, if you decide to get another GSD, you might want to at least consider the showlines. My WGSL is wonderful at home and out in public. He's four and hasn't had any major health problems so far. I don't think he's a dog-park kind of dog (or maybe I'm just not a dog-park kind of person), but he's non-reactive to leashed dogs, I can take him anywhere anytime, walk him with my two little kids in tow, and if I desire, can let anyone pet him. I spent a lot of time training him, of course, and we attended training classes for about his first two years. He went through a landshark phase and all the normal puppy stuff, but we've had no serious issues with either of our dogs and no problems with how they interact with the kids.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> I think there are too many people breeding dogs who have little to no understanding of pedigrees, who only look for how many WUSV/BSP names are in a match or who just breed for the sake of convenience (close by, in club etc)...and people who make excuses for undesirable behavior.....
> 
> There was an article in a USCA magazine 15+ years ago - Ricardo Carajabal (sp??) wrote it: he had visited with one or both of the Martin brothers....there was one quote (said by one of the Martin brothers) that has stuck with me through the years....."if a dog so much as lifted a lip at a child, it did not see the next sunrise".............we have become too soft hearted, too complacent, too emotionally invested to be objective and critical of breeding animals. Our priorities have become warped - winning instead of soundness is valued! Breeders are more concerned with quanitity and PR than quality and discernment in selling puppies.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I always knew Bud did not like children or puppies, but he would just go away. He knocked a little girl over once because she cornered him and he wanted away. And he actually paused as he was leaving to look back and make sure she was ok, so it was definitely not an aggressive thing. And yes I should have moved faster to prevent it. He did display food aggression and we attributed it to him being starved as a pup and having to fight random loose dogs away from his food. 
I got rid of one dog out of all the rescues we dealt with, and yes euthanized, because he went for a child. It's just an unforgivable crime in my books. 
Maybe there are folks willing to deal with it. I won't. Kids will always be my line in the sand, and it makes me very sad that a breeder would dare to excuse it. At the end of the day it means fewer children who will ever experience the bond with their first best friend. There is something very special about a good GSD and their child.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

The Exchange with the breeder could not have gone better. He showed up with a retired police officer who has multiple acre horse property and other dogs. Now I have confidence that my dog will thrive in the right household. Thanks for all your help


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My WL female resource guards to dogs...quite violently. She has never been aggressive to people but will clamp down and refuse to have a toy taken from her. It was never the clamp and freeze like I'm gonna haul off and bite you, but she would lock on to something just to let you know there is no way you are taking it unless she willingly gives. I've always felt that her intensity was enough that I would not allow anyone outside the family to interact with her with toys. Anf family only with rules and supervision. She was taught an out and my step kids could play with her that way. And they could not play with her till the youngest was 10 or 11 after she had gone thru a boot camp with me for being to sloppy with her teeth playing. 100% no food aggression with her with ppl. 

My adopted white cross dog was a resource guarder big time and we were able to work with him and keep him in our family and he did become a GREAT family dog. My 4 y/o white shepherd is not posessive of things or food at all. When I read OP's post I thought, they probably need a dog like him. He is big, has a big booming bark with a hard stare that easily intimidates people. Great watch dog. But very soft and tends toward being submissive toward family. Super easy to handle. Recently put to quite a test when my step daughter and her newborn baby moved in. He has been a delight. Incredibly gentle and appropriate. He has gotten a lot of guidance from us but the right stuff was there where the baby was concerned.

He will gladly gently and delicately plop his toy into the hand of a child and then back up so they can toss it.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> The Exchange with the breeder could not have gone better. He showed up with a retired police officer who has multiple acre horse property and other dogs. Now I have confidence that my dog will thrive in the right household. Thanks for all your help


 Very happy to hear this! And thank you for letting us know. All too often we're left hanging and never find out what finally happened.

It's great to know that what you did was right for the dog as well as your family. Wolftstraum was right--the breeder placed him in a heartbeat with a much more suitable situation.

We will be very interested in hearing about your next dog/puppy if you are inclined to tell us about him. And pics, we love pics here.

Just for fun, you might enjoy checking out the pics of the Patchwork Shepherds breeding dogs with kids, because they show perfectly what a family with kids should be looking for. Also, this description of one of their stud dogs is interesting: "Not a dominant male and has no problem sharing his food or toys with anyone."


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Jonrob, thank you! I will check out your GSD breeder . I should have waited for wolfstraum, but the family wanted it now! And to answer wolfy dogs question,, yes, we prefer a German Shepherd dog. The kids and us love them. Will take my time after comments. Should have listened to Lee- pedigree expert!!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Future puppy buyers : "The Whole Family Wanted It Now!" "I should have listened...waited..."

Cautionary tale....!


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

A few have requested my area for future recommendations for a new dog. My area is Arizona and California. Thx


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mvp said:


> A few have requested my area for future recommendations for a new dog. My area is Arizona and California. Thx


Are you still interested in a working line?


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

I think you all know my family dynamics.btw, I have 16 surveillance cameras,alarm system, a well lit property and multiple guns. I’m over the protection dog thing as wolfy dog said. Crazy house , toys all over the floor, three young kids and friends over...kids like to hug and squeeze the dog and give kisses. They want to sleep with the dog etc....they want to take him to the beach without a muzzle or dog fight. They like German Shepherd. I am going to continue close observation with the kids and have strict rules and obedience. I don’t think we are the working type of family. Jogging and bike rides with the dog and evening walks and mental stimulation and hide and seek games along with tennis ball fetch is what we were doing with my old dog . That won’t change . Doubt I will do protection work.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jeepers - where on earth do you live that you need all that security?

You can still have a nicely balanced working line. I have two of them.  

If you are interested in shipping - 
I've met several of Lee's dogs. Sandra King in NY (sturmfalken) breeds nicely rounded working lines that live with little kids. Not sure when her next breeding might be but I really like the Bruna kids. Jody Potter (sitz von der hose) breeds nicely balanced dogs that would do well in an active pet home such as yours. 

There are several nice show line breeders on the west coast. You can do a search on the forum for those.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Scottsdale,,,, lot of homeless,, break ins during the day. Six on my block this summer. I’m already talking to Lee. I trust her dearly. I just wanted to throw this out there since people asked.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

THANKS MVP!

I have a game plan for him......a repeat breeding where I have seen what I was looking for, and where several are in similar busy homes with kids, horses, other dogs - and enough progeny out there to know that stability, discernment and great temperaments are going to be there.........

Lee


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Don't get hung up on lines, good dogs can be found within each.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I’m really happy that all worked out and am glad you have the guidance that is being offered.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If you have something going with Lee, you should just wait. Trust in the breeder and knowing they honestly have your interest at heart, is a big deal. I still think that to some extent there were probably some things with the other dog you may have missed as they got started, so even with the next one I'd think about creating the right foundation with him and the kids. Even with good qualities like respect and discernment, obedience matters.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> I have 16 surveillance cameras,alarm system, a well lit property and multiple guns.


Bravo! I truly admire a person who takes a hard cold look at reality and takes serious steps to protect his family.

You might be interested in these books about keeping yourself and your kids safe in what can be a very ugly world:

http://www.amazon.com/Protecting-Gi...vin+de+becker&qid=1564255271&s=gateway&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gav...vin+de+becker&qid=1564255271&s=gateway&sr=8-1

The author knows what he's talking about, and there are some real surprises in the one about protecting kids.



Mvp said:


> I’m over the protection dog thing as wolfy dog said. Crazy house , toys all over the floor, three young kids and friends over...kids like to hug and squeeze the dog and give kisses. They want to sleep with the dog etc


That is the kind of GSD they should have. That is the kind of dog I had as a kid, although mean mom wouldn't let him sleep in my bed. (He was a farm mutt who was 100% trustworthy with everyone, a great watchdog, and only tried to bite once--a flying run and leap that would have made a Schutzhund champion look feeble--when a stranger tried to force his way into the house after my mom opened the door. She grabbed the dog and the guy beat it.)

BTW, there's research that shows that kids who grow up with a canine buddy are more likely to be successful financially and otherwise as adults.

As for the protection thing--a barking GSD is a real deterrent. At a minimum, it will give a warning that will give you time to get your guns and send the kids to a safe room. The usual scum will generally avoid places with a dog like this. Why bother when there are much easier places to rob? And if someone is seriously after you personally, they will just shoot a protection trained GSD dead.

I am quite sure you could get an excellent GSD puppy from Lee. But if you don't have to wait a long time to get what you need, that would be great.

Here is why I like Patchwork Shepherds.

1. Patchwork pics of their breeding GSDs show kids hugging, mashing into, and leaning into the dogs--and the dogs look relaxed and happy and often lean into the kids. (I've dealt with other breeders who claim their dogs are great and then show you pics of tense, uncomfortable GSDs leaning away from kids. Bad news! I asked one hotshot guy who ran a totally different kennel to send me a video of a GSD he was selling--which he claimed was great with kids--which showed the dog with his own little kids. He hemmed and hawed and said he was too busy. He didn't trust the dog with his own kids! He went right on my "not recommended" list.)

2. This is how Patchwork describes what they breed for:

"We focus our attention on breeding dogs that make amazing family companions and that are loving and easy to train along with having supreme beauty." 

"Here we try to raise beautiful dogs with sound temperaments. Our dogs all are well socialized with kids and other animals. You can also view any of our mothers with their puppies and none of our dogs are going to be aggressive in any way but they will still protect if we are not around. I believe that the most important thing to look at when deciding to breed a dog is temperament. Never compromise on that at all."

Patchwork Shepherds

3. I have spoken with the lady who runs Patchwork and I have been very impressed--no hard sell, and happy to freely answer my questions.

Best of luck where ever you get your new GSD!


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Steve , I’m sure I missed things with my last dog . I was new. I read , watched videos and everyone had a different opinion. Prong collar, shock collar, good boy and treats etc etc. my dog was tough. Not sure I could do anything about his genetics, high possession, Low threshold for reactivity , and aggression from the top and bottom of his Pedegree . Just to make things clear, he did eat alone for months and nobody bothered him. It was when my daughter was petting him while he was next to a toy and he snapped at her head that really made my decision . Again I want to thank everyone in this forum for guiding me in the right direction , especially Lee and wolfy dog who reached out to me. You ALL are good people here!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Regarding a GSD living with kids. They might not be so into the 'squeezing and hugging', rough housing. Their original task was to keep order in the herding chaos and protect the flock. This can transfer to roughhousing kids. Please ask the breeder to 'idiot proof' the pup by gently squeezing, pulling etc at puppy level of course so the pup gets imprinted on the stupid things people tend to do. Good luck on 
finding the right dog. Take your time. Now you know.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Yes wolfy dog. That will help. But I will continue to tell the kids not to hover over the dog, squeeze, etc. I did that daily with my other dog but it will help to have an idiot proof puppy


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> Mvp said:
> 
> 
> > I have 16 surveillance cameras,alarm system, a well lit property and multiple guns.
> ...


This breeder gives me a big ole MEH impression. All their dogs are imported, most of them within the last year? How do they know what they are producing when they just bought all these dogs from overseas and they don't do anything with them themselves?

They say they breed to the SV but they don't want to do Sch. Doesn't the SV require Sch titles to breed?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Mvp said:


> Yes wolfy dog. That will help. But I will continue to tell the kids not to hover over the dog, squeeze, etc. I did that daily with my other dog but it will help to have an idiot proof puppy


My WL girl loved being hugged by the kids. I have pictures of her being the happiest dog in the world with them both laying in the dog bed with her hugging her. She isn't a real touchy feely dog either. 

Those dogs are out there. Hopefully you have better luck next time


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> They say they breed to the SV but they don't want to do Sch. Doesn't the SV require Sch titles to breed?


It sure does


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Just to add two more things that I noticed on the website for Patchwork shepherds. 2 of their litters are sired by dogs in Europe. I wonder if they traveled overseas and handled the sire? How well do they know the owner of the sire? Adding to my wondering how much do they really know about what they have and what they are producing, as these dogs are all so recently imported.

And second- they let puppy buyers pick their own puppy. It is my understanding that the breeder should match the appropriate puppy with the appropriate home as much as possible based on what the breeder observes in their litter before it goes home. Thus preventing SOME of the types of inappropriate match-ups that the OP already had and had to return their dog. 

I'll contrast that with m now 4 y/o dog who has dogs by his breeder's kennel name going back to DOB 1991 in his pedigree so lots of generations of dogs she bred, handled, owned, showed etc. She knows her dogs. 

When I bred goats I could see traits popping up. I had one buck who liked to try to beat me up and wouldn't you know it, bucklings by him were twice as likely to try and ram a person even if they were handled properly. I castrated him for that and another undesirable trait of his. I never had another buck or buckling sired by any other buck try to challenge me or ram me. Only him and his bucklings whom he had never met (dairy bucks don't live with the herd because the smell ruins the milk) 

I guess the only way for a new breeder to avoid the learning curve would be to be mentored by a really established breeder who could guide their choices until they do have a couple generations that they really know.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Schutzhund Schmutzhund. Did you even look at the pictures CG?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Mvp said:


> Steve , I’m sure I missed things with my last dog . I was new. I read , watched videos and everyone had a different opinion. Prong collar, shock collar, good boy and treats etc etc. my dog was tough. Not sure I could do anything about his genetics, high possession, Low threshold for reactivity , and aggression from the top and bottom of his Pedegree . Just to make things clear, he did eat alone for months and nobody bothered him. It was when my daughter was petting him while he was next to a toy and he snapped at her head that really made my decision . Again I want to thank everyone in this forum for guiding me in the right direction , especially Lee and wolfy dog who reached out to me. You ALL are good people here!


We all do. We've learned some things the easy way and some the hard way over the years. Everything will be easier this time.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Schutzhund Schmutzhund. Did you even look at the pictures CG?


You're right, I should have looked at those more....


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Just to add two more things that I noticed on the website for Patchwork shepherds. 2 of their litters are sired by dogs in Europe. I wonder if they traveled overseas and handled the sire? How well do they know the owner of the sire? Adding to my wondering how much do they really know about what they have and what they are producing, as these dogs are all so recently imported.
> 
> And second- they let puppy buyers pick their own puppy. It is my understanding that the breeder should match the appropriate puppy with the appropriate home as much as possible based on what the breeder observes in their litter before it goes home. Thus preventing SOME of the types of inappropriate match-ups that the OP already had and had to return their dog.
> 
> ...



Obviously someone who has gathered some showline longcoats and is geared to buyers looking for pretty coated GSDs....there is nothing of the serious student or knowledge of the breed in this website - it is a commercial operation with marketing to gain attention through photographs of pretty coated dogs.


My last named litter (R litter - both sire and dam my breeding and the first I have done on both sides) is the 3rd and 5th generation of dogs I have owned, bred and trained. I have a littermate to the dam and the sire right here in my living room, sleeping on my bed or in the bedroom, and going to work with me every day. The linebreeding in the Rs worked to produce the type of the dog linebred upon, who was a super female, cited by the koermeister as "a genetic treasure".....a dog I KNEW as I bred and lived with for 14 years. 

I can only think of a handful of people in the US in working lines who "have a couple of generations that they really know"



Lee


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> I can only think of a handful of people in the US in working lines who "have a couple of generations that they really know"
> Lee


I find that _very _concerning...


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> I will continue to tell the kids not to hover over the dog, squeeze, etc.


The kids should be able to do just that--with a GSD that loves it.

Having the type of dog that would require enforcing strict rules to make the kids keep their distance blows the whole thing.When my little brother had a rough day at school, he would come home, lie next our big farm mutt, hug and squeeze him, and sometimes fall asleep on the floor hugging him. The dog loved it and it kept my brother sane.

Getting a puppy that requires idiot proofing against kids would also blow the whole thing. You need a puppy with the kid gene, which prevents him from harming a child and makes him welcome attention from kids. If you have to rely on idiot proofing a puppy, you are looking at the wrong lines. You need to be able to rely on the puppy's genetics. If you can't, you will likely end up with the same problems you had before.

Here's something I posted on another thread that directly relates to your situation:

"Genetics, I learned the hard way, is the most important thing when it comes to temperament and behavior. Socialization and training are very important but their results are determined by genetics.

If you don't believe this, check out the Russian tame and aggressive foxes. The Russians have developed two lines of fur farm foxes, one very tame and the other very aggressive. When they implanted aggressive-fox embryos into tame-fox mothers and had the tame-fox mothers raise them, guess how the pups turned out? Very aggressive.

Some info here, for those who like a scientific point of view:

Foxes | Kukekova Lab
"
BTW, I would never recommend Patchwork as a place to find a Schutzhund dog. This breeder is for people who are not into dog sports and are looking for a stable, easygoing, kindhearted family GSD who will love the kids and not hurt them.

One of the best things about GSDs is that the breed has been so versatile. Some GSDs (fewer and fewer) make great service dogs, others great sport dogs, others great police/military dogs, and so on. The problems arise when there is a mismatch between the owner and the dog, and when great GSD family and service dogs become harder and harder to find because so many breeders have contempt for them and their breeders.

Another BTW--it is usual and customary to import pregnant females. It's done all the time by working line and showline breeders, who often brag about it. This works well if the overseas owner of the sire knows the sire well and is completely honest about him and what he has produced or is likely to produce.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Have to disagree with you on this @JonRob. Children need to learn rules and respect them when it comes to any breed of dog. Sure, some dogs will tolerate it, but generally snap at some point when they’ve had enough of the loving a squeezing and pulling small children do. 

My children are trained just as much as I train my dogs. The same way I teach my kids to respect other kids and adults boundaries. I have rescued family dogs that just randomly went after a family member. The more info the owner shares, the more you realize the dogs was harassed and bullied by the child that dog bit. They came into my home, with my children, and I have never had a repeat bite. Why? Because my children respect dogs boundaries and know what is acceptable behavior and what is not. Plus they are never left alone unsupervised with any dog. 

Sure, genetics play a big role in what you end up with. But it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that everyone (dogs included), can only be pushed so far before they say enough is enough. A dog with bad genetics can be taught to interact with children at their comfort level, as long as the children are taught how to respectfully interact with animals.

You can have the best breed GSD in the world, and you stick it in a house with a child when is always poking it, pulling its fur and tail and ears, poking eyes, and generally being a nuisance to the dog, and it will eventually get fed up with that child, and the owners not stopping that child from those behaviors, and leave them to play unsupervised, and the dog will likely correct the kid itself, generally via a bite if they don’t have a way to get away from the child. 

I looked into Patchwork, and yes, they have some very attractive dogs, but I don’t see anything beyond that. I wouldn’t purchase from this breeder. You say the are breed to be gentle in home animals, but where is the proof of that? The long rambling explanation of why they say they are breeding for children safe pets? 

Anyway, off my soap box I guess, and good luck to any parent who trusts their new puppy enough around their small children because a website said it’s okay.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Jchrest said:


> Children need to learn rules and respect them when it comes to any breed of dog.


Sure they do, and mean/hurtful behavior by kids should should not be tolerated. My favorite story about this one comes from 1928 by a dog writer named Albert Payson Terhune:

"When I was six years old, my father gave me a pointer puppy. It occurred to me that it would be vastly amusing to pick the pudgy youngster up by his long ears and swing him to and fro in pendulum fashion. I did so. The puppy squealed most entertainingly. My father came out on the lawn, behind me. I did not know of his presence until he lifted me high in the air by my own ample ears, and swung me to and fro. It hurt horribly, and I bellowed like a smitten bull-calf. He set me down, without a word, and went back into the house. As I stood there howling and wishing he were dead, it dawned on me by degrees that the luckless pointer pup had suffered exactly the same pain from my playful antics as I had suffered from my father's punishment. I remember it as vividly as though it had happened yesterday. It impressed me as no lecture or spanking could have done. For some reason, it cured me forever of any impulse to cause suffering in others for my own amusement. I think I began, unconsciously, my study of dog nature from that hour."

From:

http://www.math.ttu.edu/~wlewis/xmasdog.htm

Of course, if this happened today, Terhune's father would be arrested for child abuse and Terhune would have spent the rest of his life whining about how he had been victimized and his life was ruined instead of becoming a very productive writer. I think his dad did the right thing.

But MVP has had such a bad experience that he's worried about the kids even hovering over the dog, for Pete's sake. Hovering and hugging are not abusive if the dog has the genes to love it. If the dog doesn't enjoy this, he's not a good bet as a family dog. I am assuming that MVP's kids are not little sadists.

I'm surprised that you're not impressed by the Patchwork pics of kids hugging and mashing their GSDs and the the dogs taking such obvious joy in it. I am impressed. Those are true family dogs.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I have learned so much useful info throughout the years that have helped me and came to depend on info given in threads such as this.

I feel the need to clarify that there is no such thing as a “kid gene”. Proofing a dog or pup is just away to help a breeder see which genes have been inherited and expressed in the pup or litter. Idiot proofing is providing pup or dog specific scenarios (that idiots would do) not a nice term but ......that would challenge and give insight as to how the pup or dog naturally reacts. Helping to prove that the intended breeding was successful with what the breeder was breeding for.

I hope I got this right and hope if not someone corrects it.

@JonRob, from posts I have read, I know you have a lot more experience than I but as I stated, I have depended on info such as this one to help me though and understand issues I was faced with and I am concerned enough about other novice/newbies like me who are reading this thread and gathering info.

I checked some of the pedigrees of sires and dams of that breeder. One dam has lines that my boy WL shares. I would definitely want a pup idiot proofed and the pedigree looked at. Not saying the lines are good or bad,just that I know who my boy is and he shares some of the genes.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’m old school with my children, I would have done the same, and then hand them the phone if they said they wanted to call CPS. My sisters kids have actually called on her, for nothing more than physical discipline. My kids haven’t. I don’t beat them, but I spank them when their behavior necessitates a spanking. I do it in public. My son decided it was fun to bite his older brother, and terrorized him for a week. Time out, spanking, talks, none of those worked. So I watched him like a hawk, and the next time he bit his brother, I bit him. He never bit another kid after that. Spare the rod, spoil the child. 

Back to the topic, I don’t look at pictures and assume we are seeing everything that is happening to get those pictures. Show me videos, and welcome me into your program to see how you handle the dogs, how the dogs react in real life situations, and then I would consider it. But just pictures of dogs being smashed by a kid and putting up with it? Nope, not going to win me over.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Whatever the genes, there's always some variance in individual temperament influenced by experience and our input. It just makes sense to respect what a dog is capable of until you know for sure what your dogs good and bad qualities are. I'd tell my kids the same thing with a Lab, Shepherd, or a patchwork of anything else.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Jchrest said:


> welcome me into your program to see how you handle the dogs, how the dogs react in real life situations, and then I would consider it. But just pictures of dogs being smashed by a kid and putting up with it? Nope, not going to win me over.


Patchwork is happy to have visitors, so MVP could do this. And the dogs in the pics are not "putting up with it." They are relaxed, happy, and often delighted.


Heartandsoul said:


> there is no such thing as a “kid gene”.


Ah but there is. Best example I can give you is a 5-month-old GSD, sweet dog but totally unsocialized with kids, who met a small boy who unexpectedly crouched down, grabbed his muzzle with both hands, went nose to nose with the dog, and stared hard into his eyes. Yeah, stupid thing to do. And the dog blinked once, then just melted, wagged his tail nonstop, and cuddled up to the boy. No one taught him to do that. 

Again, check out the genetics of the Russian tame and aggressive foxes. The biggest mistake I made in my early years as a dog trainer was underestimating the power of genetics.



Heartandsoul said:


> Proofing a dog or pup is just away to help a breeder see which genes have been inherited and expressed in the pup or litter. Idiot proofing is providing pup or dog specific scenarios (that idiots would do) not a nice term but ......that would challenge and give insight as to how the pup or dog naturally reacts. Helping to prove that the intended breeding was successful with what the breeder was breeding for.


That kind of thing should always be done but it's called temperament testing, not idiot proofing. Idiot proofing is intended to try to teach the pup to tolerate certain things. Temperament testing is done to see what the pup naturally tolerates.

As I tell everyone, including MVP, puppies are a total crapshoot. You can get a rotten dog out of very good parents. Throwbacks happen, depending on how the chromosome strands swap their genetic info. But you sure increase your chances of getting a good family dog if you get a pup from parents who are good family dogs.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

JonRob said:


> 3. I have spoken with the lady who runs Patchwork and I have been very impressed--no hard sell, and happy to freely answer my questions.


 I have met some Patchwork dogs.
Sheilah


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Just for my own interest I checked the Patchwork website. You are required to choose your pup at six weeks. Too early to determine temperament as they do change a lot in the next few weeks and can put too much pressure on potential owners.
They are sold on a spay/neuter Are you required to alter them, against the new research on how health is affected? Full registration is $750 more?
I would go and see the dogs in person before deciding. Are you not in too much of a hurry now? 
I am not bashing the breeder, just a word of caution to carefully interpreting contracts.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> > welcome me into your program to see how you handle the dogs, how the dogs react in real life situations, and then I would consider it. But just pictures of dogs being smashed by a kid and putting up with it? Nope, not going to win me over.
> ...


JonRob do you have some relationship with this breeder?

I wouldn't buy a dog from any breeder period if that breeder doesn't do anything with their dogs. Which as far as I can tell Patchwork doesn't do anything with their dogs. I don't honestly care if they title in Sch or not. My dog's parents only had a BH and tracking title from Sch but literally dozens of other performance events, AKC OB, UKC OB, AKc tracking titles, nosework titles, conformation CHs, flyball, agility. So these she has travelled all over wih these dogs, seen them be touched by strangers, seen them in stressful or highly charged environments. 

The lab I have came from parents with conformation CHs, OB titles, something in hunting but not sure because that's not my thing. most importantly (for me) dogs who had consistently produced working service dogs and full siblings from previous litters were already working as SDs. 

Re the lab breeder it was also someone I contacted on the recommendation of a dog sport judge I know who is very involved with a very big local Labrador breed club and she is very involved with that breed. I am not, which is why I reached out to her for a recommendation after visiting a breeder *I* came up with on my own and having her try to sell me a super fearful year old wreck of a dog for top dollar as a service dog prospect. Um, no! That dog would not have even been a decent pet!

I neglected to mention the INCREDIBLE amount of health testing and genetic screening both of these bredders do on their dogs (that's the 2 breeders for my 4 y/o and my 16 mo old.

When breeders like this exist, why oh why would anyone settle for less??


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Heartandsoul said:


> I have learned so much useful info throughout the years that have helped me and came to depend on info given in threads such as this.
> 
> I feel the need to clarify that there is no such thing as a “kid gene”. Proofing a dog or pup is just away to help a breeder see which genes have been inherited and expressed in the pup or litter. Idiot proofing is providing pup or dog specific scenarios (that idiots would do) not a nice term but ......that would challenge and give insight as to how the pup or dog naturally reacts. Helping to prove that the intended breeding was successful with what the breeder was breeding for.
> 
> ...


I don't know if there is a kid gene or not. I know my girl sure loves my step kids and tends to be pretty loving toward any kid or baby she's ever encountered. I feel pretty confident in saying she would never bite or threaten to bite my kids in anger, no matter what they did to her. She DID bite one of them by accident being stupid with a tug toy because she's a nut. I honestly can't imagine my white dog doing that same stupid accident bite. He just doesn't lose his head like she does. She is almost 13 and they are young adults now so I think I'm safe to say this at this point.

BUT they were good, good kids to the animals. And I made sure there was never anything inappropriate or weird going on. And I never would have let-- nor would they have tried, one of them just grab her and hug her outside while she was jacked up on a ball. They certainly could pet her when she had toys and there was never a hint of impropriety there. They never ever bothered the dogs while they were eating except that I did recruit them far into the program to do "random acts of food love" with the resource guarder.

I think my girl is an example of a basically very good dog who lived with respectful, well supervised, basically very good kids. She had plenty of outlets as far as exercise and mental stimulation, and there was a lot of love. As far as she was concerned ---well as far as they are all concerned actually, she was a"one of the girls" (two human girls and a dog girl) and I have pictures of the 3 of them together where the looks on their faces so obviously say just that. But it didn't happen totally by accident, shot in the dark, with no effort. The dog grew up with tons of appropriate children before them. I knew she loved kids and i knew she loved these kids and they loved her before we all moved in together. And we maintained common sense boundaries.

I would never ever buy a dog from a breeder just because they have pretty pictures of kids hugging dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> The kids should be able to do just that--with a GSD that loves it.
> 
> Having the type of dog that would require enforcing strict rules to make the kids keep their distance blows the whole thing.When my little brother had a rough day at school, he would come home, lie next our big farm mutt, hug and squeeze him, and sometimes fall asleep on the floor hugging him. The dog loved it and it kept my brother sane.
> 
> ...


Customary to import pregnant females, I don't doubt that it is. I know of two other breeders who've done it very recently. Those two breeders are much more established, been doing this for decades, and I have heard plenty of people say good things about them. Someone like that I WOULD expect would know the person who person, the sire himself, his lines, the dam's lines or some combination of all the bunch well enough to be able to import that pregnant female and have some knowledge of what she would be producing.

This Patchwork breeder appears to have bought a whole bunch of dogs very recently. All of them (I think?) are long coats. Long coats aren't THAT common so seems like they were definitely doing that on purpose. And if you're looking for that first, then other things (which I think are more important) are going to come second. And it seemed like all the dogs came from different kennels? Which kind of stands to reason if they were specifically looking for long coats. None of that seems to indicate strong relationship between buyer and overseas kennel (s)...longevity in the breed....

I of course am only speculating from their website and who knows, maybe they are the best dogs in the world and maybe the breeder does have long meaningful relationships with those or some of those kennels and totally knows what they have. There might be TONS of stuff about that breeder that isn't what it seems at first glance, but I don't see the evidence from what I can see


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I probably got caught up in semantics. “Kid Gene” implying that there has been one gene in the DNA identified as the one gene that determines how a dog behaves towards kids when it is actually many that make up the Temperament /traits necessary for level headed discernment and discretion in the behavior towards children.

JohnRob is right, I should have used the term temperament testing. But I still feel that temperament testing is the beginning of proofing although maybe proofing is a term that only applies towards training specific behaviors and Irregardless of temperament.

In any case, the recent curve the thread has taken has been interesting and the op is in good hands.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Wow, learning a lot here by some smart people. I’m not in a hurry. I trust Lee’s judgement in pedigrees and her dogs. Everyone seems to have some very good points # jonrob et al..


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> JonRob do you have some relationship with this breeder?


Nope. But I've kept tabs on Patchwork for years, looking for legitimate serious complaints or problems, because my specialty is family/companion dog training. So far I have not found any issues. 

I have a very short list of breeders who I recommend to people looking for a family GSD. I got serious about this years ago after a very nice lady called me in tears because she had just seen a "reputable" GSD breeder--with fancy titled German lines breeding dogs--about buying one of her adult male GSDs. When the lady's toddler bumbled past the dog's crate, the dog smashed into the crate door, snarling and trying to bite the boy. At which point the "reputable" breeder started screaming at the lady, saying it was her fault because the boy "invaded" the dog's territory and "threatened" him. The poor lady thought she might have done something wrong. I had a long chat with her and reassured her about who had the problem. I also found her a very sweet GSD puppy that was bred by a nice couple with two sound, good-natured, health-tested GSD family dogs with no titles whatsoever. The puppy matured into a wonderful family dog. And yeah, the kid hugged the dog all the time, which made the dog totally bliss out. (BTW, I don't charge a dime for finding good dogs for good people.)

Then there's another "reputable" breeder I know of--also with fancy titled German lines breeding dogs--who routinely produces nasty temperaments. She has a lot of returns for sale on her website (although she doesn't admit that's what they are), and you often see families trying to resell the GSDs they got from her. 

I could go on and on with horror stories like this.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> I wouldn't buy a dog from any breeder period if that breeder doesn't do anything with their dogs. Which as far as I can tell Patchwork doesn't do anything with their dogs. I don't honestly care if they title in Sch or not. My dog's parents only had a BH and tracking title from Sch but literally dozens of other performance events, AKC OB, UKC OB, AKc tracking titles, nosework titles, conformation CHs, flyball, agility.


One of the most important jobs a GSD can have is that of a sound family dog. That is real-world doing something that matters a lot. One of the reasons I recommend Patchwork to people looking for family/companion dogs is because they don't focus on titles. They focus on producing GSDs that make great family dogs.

Titles guarantee nothing as far as getting a good family/companion GSD is concerned. Worse, the traits that make for a high-performing Schutzhund dog are inconsistent with those needed for a good family/companion dog.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> When breeders like this exist, why oh why would anyone settle for less??


Because genetics matters. And what you consider less is a lot more when someone is looking for a good family/companion dog.

If you want a tracking dog, you look at breeders who strive to produce good tracking dogs.

If you want a military dog, you look at breeders who strive to produce good military dogs.

If you want a family/companion dog, you look at breeders who strive to produce good family/companion dogs.

There ought to be room for everyone here. Different people want GSDs for different reasons, and folks should look for breeders who are striving to produce what they want.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

JonRob said:


> Nope. But I've kept tabs on Patchwork for years, looking for legitimate serious complaints or problems, because my specialty is family/companion dog training. So far I have not found any issues.


 Not to quibble, but the demographic that purchases from this breeder is not really knowledgeable about who they would complain to if they did have complaints. The owners are the type to do a puppy class at Petsmart and call it good. 


They are local to me. If I remember correctly, they use to breed for coated, white dogs. 
Sheilah


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Heartandsoul said:


> I probably got caught up in semantics. “Kid Gene” implying that there has been one gene in the DNA identified as the one gene that determines how a dog behaves towards kids when it is actually many that make up the Temperament /traits necessary for level headed discernment and discretion in the behavior towards children.
> 
> JohnRob is right, I should have used the term temperament testing. But I still feel that temperament testing is the beginning of proofing although maybe proofing is a term that only applies towards training specific behaviors and Irregardless of temperament.


 You got the concepts mostly right and that's what matters.

Temperament testing may or may not be the beginning of proofing. I would add that if a puppy has to be seriously proofed for his new home, he's going to the wrong place.

Also, I found an even better example of the kid gene (and yes it's more than one gene). If you haven't heard about Fama the Bomb Dog, you might be interested. Check out the thread "Fama... the next chapter" here and google Leerburg Fama Bomb Dog for her story. Once you start reading her story it's hard to stop. Fama regularly bit people, but I just learned today that she had the kid gene:



David Winners said:


> Straight out of the Army, Fama would wade through a screaming kindergarten class on their knees in a loud gymnasium without so much as a raised lip or single sign of stress. You put her in a room of adults talking loudly and she was immediately looking for someone to bite.


She was a truly awesome dog and I was very saddened by her passing.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

JonRob said:


> You got the concepts mostly right and that's what matters.
> 
> Temperament testing may or may not be the beginning of proofing. I would add that if a puppy has to be seriously proofed for his new home, he's going to the wrong place.
> 
> ...


I got a lot more than the concepts right, and understand a lot more than I express. I just did not use correct terminology. Could give a few examples of my own. And am looking forward to David’s input.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

sit said:


> Not to quibble, but the demographic that purchases from this breeder is not really knowledgeable about who they would complain to if they did have complaints. The owners are the type to do a puppy class at Petsmart and call it good.
> 
> 
> They are local to me. If I remember correctly, they use to breed for coated, white dogs.
> Sheilah


I like their about me page on the website.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

JonRob said:


> Nope. But I've kept tabs on Patchwork for years, looking for legitimate serious complaints or problems, because my specialty is family/companion dog training. So far I have not found any issues.
> 
> I have a very short list of breeders who I recommend to people looking for a family GSD. I got serious about this years ago after a very nice lady called me in tears because she had just seen a "reputable" GSD breeder--with fancy titled German lines breeding dogs--about buying one of her adult male GSDs. When the lady's toddler bumbled past the dog's crate, the dog smashed into the crate door, snarling and trying to bite the boy. At which point the "reputable" breeder started screaming at the lady, saying it was her fault because the boy "invaded" the dog's territory and "threatened" him. The poor lady thought she might have done something wrong. I had a long chat with her and reassured her about who had the problem. I also found her a very sweet GSD puppy that was bred by a nice couple with two sound, good-natured, health-tested GSD family dogs with no titles whatsoever. The puppy matured into a wonderful family dog. And yeah, the kid hugged the dog all the time, which made the dog totally bliss out. (BTW, I don't charge a dime for finding good dogs for good people.)
> 
> ...


Have you ever trained and titled a dog in Schutzhund? Any formal obedience or activity? I've seen a good number of family dogs besides my own training and trialing. The titles aren't everything. Its the experience that matters.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Mvp said:


> Wow, learning a lot here by some smart people. I’m not in a hurry. I trust Lee’s judgement in pedigrees and her dogs. Everyone seems to have some very good points # jonrob et al..


Something to think about here Mvp, you are probably feeling that trust because she primarily breeds dogs that came from her previous breedings. It would be pretty tough for you to keep tabs on breedings from a constant influx of new imports. Thats where you start getting statements about "Our dogs don't do a,b, or c, but you can believe me when I say they could"


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I believe many (possibly most) members here wouldn't be comfortable recommending a breeder they had zero experience with or direct knowledge of the dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't think the GSD is a prefect family dog for every family. I would go as far as saying that the GSD is not a suitable pet for the majority of homes in the areas I have lived.

No GSD should live in a home without serious rules concerning animal respect and welfare. Little Johnny the 5 year old terrorist that pokes the dog with a stick deserves to get bit. Little Johnny isn't at fault if his parents don't manage the situation if he isn't old enough to understand, don't teach him to respect animals, don't teach him that they are dangerous, don't teach him that the dog isn't smiling but rather that it's about to bite you in the face, don't care to educate themselves on the breed of dog that they are bringing into their home for 10 plus years, and don't blame themselves (but rather their breeder) for their poor decisions.

My mother told me at a very early age, and repeated it every time she saw me do something stupid, that if a dog bites you, it's your fault. You either failed to recognize the situation in which you put the dog, you failed to recognize or heed the warnings the dog was giving you, or you failed to realize what kind of dog you were dealing with.

Every single time I've been bitten, I could have avoided it, or I put up with it because it was worth it. I'm smart enough to not git bitten anymore. I probably shouldn't have said that.

The kid gene is confidence. 

If you want a dog that cares about nothing but hugs and Scoobie Snacks, get an "English" Lab, Doodle, Frenchie, OE Mastiff, Saint Bernard Dog, (insert any companion breed here).

If you want a protection type breed, you have to pay your dues and do the work. This includes education, training your kids and dogs, managing the situation, more education, screwing up, getting help, etc.

I have a problem with breeders that breed soft GSDs. There is a difference between friendly and soft.

I don't understand people that want soft GSDs. Get a lab. 

YES, there are dogs that are big enough jerks that they shouldn't be pets in the average family home and they should be returned to the responsible breeder from which they were purchased without any hard feelings from either party.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> She was a truly awesome dog and I was very saddened by her passing.


Thank you very much.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> I like their about me page on the website.


It's telling for sure


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Wow! From some of the posts on here, one would think there are several different breeds of German Shepherds. There isn't. There is one breed. There is one written standard and all reputable breeders should be breeding to meet that standard. 

As Dave stated, German Shepherds make excellent family dogs for the right family but not every family is right for this breed. If someone doesn't want, or can't handle, expected breed behavior, the solution is not to start breeding dumbed down dogs that no longer fit the breed criteria but to look for an appropriate breed that does suit one's lifestyle.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Have you ever trained and titled a dog in Schutzhund? Any formal obedience or activity?


Nope, nothing with titles, and that's the point. That's not my specialty. My specialty is family/companion dogs, especially fixing problem behaviors. I don't tell people how to train Schutzhund dogs. It's not my thing and I have never claimed expertise in this kind of training.



Steve Strom said:


> The titles aren't everything. Its the experience that matters.


Experience at what? There's no way Schutzhund training would make me a better family/companion dog trainer. For that, I have my experience training family/companion dogs.

Case in point: A family asked for my help because their sociable dog began growling at visitors about a month after their baby was born. They were afraid the dog would hurt the baby and had been strongly advised by a fancy-pants animal behaviorist to have the dog killed.

Would teaching a Schutzhund dog to have a more crushing bite helped me figure out and fix the problem?

How about teaching a dog to weave better through the agility poles? Or teaching a dog to perform in the obedience ring?

It was my experience training family/companion dogs that enabled me to figure out what the problem was and tell the owners how to fix it. Which they did, and very easily once they understood what to do. And that dog would have taken a bullet for that baby.

People have contempt for what I do because there aren't titles for it. But I could not care less. The only opinions that matter to me are the dog's opinion and his family's opinion.

The kind of training I do requires a thoughtful, intelligent, flexible approach because every dog and situation is different and different methods are needed for different dogs. That's one of the reasons I like it so much. It keeps the neurons in my old brain firing. I would be bored to death practicing the same routines over and over to get a title. It's great for others but not for me.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Wow! From some of the posts on here, one would think there are several different breeds of German Shepherds. There isn't. There is one breed. There is one written standard and all reputable breeders should be breeding to meet that standard.
> 
> As Dave stated, German Shepherds make excellent family dogs for the right family but not every family is right for this breed. If someone doesn't want, or can't handle, expected breed behavior, the solution is not to start breeding dumbed down dogs that no longer fit the breed criteria but to look for an appropriate breed that does suit one's lifestyle.


Are GSD guide dogs dumbed down? I don't think so.

I totally respect Dave's preference for the military style GSD. We need those dogs, and I was a huge fan of Fama from the day he started writing about her.

But as I have said before, one of the GSD breed's outstanding qualities has been its versatility.

It takes nothing away from those who prefer harder GSDs if someone breeds softer GSDs that make good service, therapy or family dogs. There will always be plenty of hard GSDs, especially in today's world.

I think we would all do better to respect these differences instead of insisting that only the type of GSD we prefer should be bred.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

sit said:


> Not to quibble, but the demographic that purchases from this breeder is not really knowledgeable about who they would complain to if they did have complaints. The owners are the type to do a puppy class at Petsmart and call it good.


How did you manage to access Patchwork's sales records to determine the demographics of their puppy buyers? They ship their puppies all over the country.

Also, I would have a hard time finding anyone who didn't know about the Internet and the fact that there are numerous websites where consumers can post complaints.



sit said:


> The owners are the type to do a puppy class at Petsmart and call it good.


If true, that's an important piece of information. Yes, the Petsmart training is very low level and incapable of handling puppies with behavior problems. So if Patchwork puppy owners are getting good results with such low-level training, that indicates that their puppies have very sound, easily trainable temperaments.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

JonRob said:


> Are GSD guide dogs dumbed down? I don't think so.


dumbed down? no, watered down, absolutely.... currently being phased out of many programs? yep

present day guide dogs of any breed aren’t what they were in the 40’s 50’s 60’s etc. the guide dog user has changed quite a bit too, as have training techniques and our society/culture.

different story for a different time. bottom line, prey drive, aggression... no room for that in the GD world, those dogs simply don’t make the cut. so are certain traits bred out... yes they are.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JonRob said:


> Are GSD guide dogs dumbed down? I don't think so.
> 
> I totally respect Dave's preference for the military style GSD. We need those dogs, and I was a huge fan of Fama from the day he started writing about her.
> 
> ...


I think you missed the point. My point was nobody should be breeding their own personal preference. Breeders should be breeding to the standard. If that doesn't suit someone, then perhaps they should choose another breed or create another one. 

Guide dogs are specifically bred for traits that are desirable for their work, they are not being bred with an eye for the breed standard. The reasons are many as to why GSDs aren't being used in this venue in great numbers. Can the GSD guide dogs perform satisfactory in other work venues as required? If not, then you tell me, are they being dumbed down?

There is no breed of dog that can be a good family companion to all families.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

JonRob said:


> How did you manage to access Patchwork's sales records to determine the demographics of their puppy buyers? They ship their puppies all over the country.


I think because most knowledgeable GSD people wouldn’t be buying a dog from them based on their website. As others have said, their “about me” page was quite informative. Therefore, by default, the market for their dogs is for people without a lot of knowledge for the breed. 

Whether they ship all over the country or not is irrelevant. In fact, that proves my point. The market for that type of dog is huge. The people on this website don’t represent the majority of puppy buyers out there. And the majority of people out the don’t know how to tell a good GSD breeder from a bad breeder (not saying Patchwork is necessarily bad, just making a general point about the buying public). This is in no way an indictment. Just that most people aren’t as dog obsessed or as GSD obsessed as this board. LOL So I wouldn’t use that they ship all over the country” as proof they are good breeders. I know many bad breeders who do the same thing. 

Case in point, I almost bought from a different breeder who ships everywhere before I realized the warning signs of what to look for. I was uneducated. Some very nice people here took the time to share their experiences with me about that breeder in PMs. Sure, I lost my $500 deposit for that breeder, but that was a small price to pay to know I now have a dog with a sound temperament. 

Patchwork may produce some nice family dogs, but their website gives me pause knowing what I now know about good GSD breeders. You don’t know what you don’t know until you know.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

JonRob said:


> Nope, nothing with titles, and that's the point. That's not my specialty. My specialty is family/companion dogs, especially fixing problem behaviors. I don't tell people how to train Schutzhund dogs. It's not my thing and I have never claimed expertise in this kind of training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Come on, no one has contempt for you or anything you say you do. I'm just looking for whats given you your perspective about some of the things you've said. With all due respect, I think you've limited yourself and kept to a pretty narrow range of dogs and training. Pretty similar to a breeder stating what their dogs are capable of, without ever having done any of it. Sometimes it's better to just say "I don't know"


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Come on, no one has contempt for you or anything you say you do. I'm just looking for whats given you your perspective about some of the things you've said. With all due respect, I think you've limited yourself and kept to a pretty narrow range of dogs and training. Pretty similar to a breeder stating what their dogs are capable of, without ever having done any of it. Sometimes it's better to just say "I don't know"


I see your point. A friend focuses his dog training business on family dogs. In the last couple of years he started training his dogs in bitework. He felt by expanding his experience, he could be that much more a better trainer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lou??? Is that you?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think people who are looking for a soft GSD, watered or dumbed down, whatever you call it, are basically wanting a Golden Retriever with the GSD look.
The beauty, mystic and reputation of a GSD gets this breed in trouble quite a bit because many potential owners don't know what's going on inside these dogs; their needs for training, work, human companionship and vet costs.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

wolfy dog said:


> I think people who are looking for a soft GSD, watered or dumbed down, whatever you call it, are basically wanting a Golden Retriever with the GSD look.
> The beauty, mystic and reputation of a GSD gets this breed in trouble quite a bit because many potential owners don't know what's going on inside these dogs; their needs for training, work, human companionship and vet costs.


I agree. When I was looking at the "About Me" page on the Patchwork site, it seems like they are pushing "german shepherds are just like doodles and my pictures prove that" again, not bagging on them, just seems a little off...


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I think you've limited yourself and kept to a pretty narrow range of dogs and training.
> 
> Sometimes it's better to just say "I don't know"


If you think family/companion dogs are a "narrow range," you haven't worked with very many of them.

I am not going to say "I don't know" about things I have a great deal of experience with, have worked with very successfully, and know a great deal about.

If I started prattling on about training Schutzhund dogs, you'd have a valid complaint. But I don't.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> A friend focuses his dog training business on family dogs. In the last couple of years he started training his dogs in bitework. He felt by expanding his experience, he could be that much more a better trainer.


Trainer of what? That's like saying that that the best way for a board certified heart surgeon to become a better heart surgeon is for him to start doing brain surgeries. 

Specialization is what makes a person excellent in their specialty. That is well known in any field. Which is why you don't see the top Schutzhund trainers focusing on solving family/companion dog behavior problems.



wolfy dog said:


> I think people who are looking for a soft GSD, watered or dumbed down, whatever you call it, are basically wanting a Golden Retriever with the GSD look.


A softer GSD--and these dogs are not stupid or "watered down"--is nothing like a Golden Retriever or Lab in temperament.

But I have no time for this. I have dogs to train. The only reason I have spent so much time on this is because I truly admire MVP for doing the right thing with his previous dog and for trying to find the right dog for his family. The more information he has, the better he can deal with his situation.

There will always be people who will be outraged that a breeder dares to strive for the kind of GSD that they personally don't prefer. I have never understood this but they are welcome to their opinions. I have no interest in convincing them otherwise. But some of the lurkers here now know that others have a very different point of view.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

JonRob said:


> If you think family/companion dogs are a "narrow range," you haven't worked with very many of them.
> 
> I am not going to say "I don't know" about things I have a great deal of experience with, have worked with very successfully, and know a great deal about.
> 
> ...


You've missed every point. 


> Which is why you don't see the top Schutzhund trainers focusing on solving family/companion dog behavior problems.


Say's who?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What's that saying something to the effect that you don't know what you don't know until you know it?


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

JonRob said:


> Which is why you don't see the top Schutzhund trainers focusing on solving family/companion dog behavior problems.


Boy, that is simply not true. I have a West German working line GSD who is a pet. I’ve done obedience and agility with him for fun, but he’s primarily a companion. 

He was attacked by another dog and developed fear reactivity to other dogs on leash...made worse by my own apprehension. 

So what did I do? I sought out one of the top working line trainers (he does shutzhund/IPO/IPG) to help me. Ivan Balabanov’s training center was a few hours away from me. That training center helped me with a “pet” problem...walking a dog on leash who went ballistic at the sight of another dog. They don’t just train for sport. They train so you can manage your dog. You should see Michael Ellis videos, where he shows you how to use food to train, or how to get your dog to love his crate. I don’t know where you get the idea that they only train for sport. 

I now see a trainer who is a retired cop who taught canine handling to other cops for 18 years in Florida. He’s just closer to me than Ivan so I can go more frequently.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> Steve Strom said:
> 
> 
> > I think you've limited yourself and kept to a pretty narrow range of dogs and training.
> ...


No one here is going to bash you for "only being a pet trainer." In all honesty, the challenges presented to a pet trainer are more varied and require some real imagination at times. Pet owners are typically far more difficult to educate, as they want you to fix the problem for them and get on with their lives without changing anything on their part.

I have worked in a lot of areas in dog training, including hunting, military, sport, service dogs and lots of pets. Every single new experience makes me a better trainer in other fields. More tools means more possible solutions. If you think a military trainer can't learn from Kikopup and be a better trainer, you're missing the boat on shaping behaviors in ways you just might not know about.

Is there a better way to understand aggression than to experience it in a controlled environment with as many different examples as possible? 

The ultrasound was first used in medicine to detect brain tumors. It's now widely used by cardiologists. More tools in the box.

Edited because my phone can't read my mind.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

JonRob said:


> How did you manage to access Patchwork's sales records to determine the demographics of their puppy buyers? They ship their puppies all over the country.


 I have no idea what their sales records look like, obviously. I am basing my opinion on the people who own a Patchwork dog that I have run into while out and about in the community. I live 20 minutes down the road from their location. I have run into Patchwork dogs at food truck rallies, farmer markets, kids soccer games, local parks...you get the idea. They have been breeding for over ten years and there are a lot of their dogs floating around this area.


I love dogs and I love the breed, so I talk to people. I ask where they got their dog and what they are doing with it. The Patchwork dogs that I have met in person, rather than on the internet, have been a little on the soft side. Because of the noisy and crowded environments of some of these meets, there have been a few dogs that seemed totally overwhelmed and stressed. The owners had no idea they were putting their dogs in a bad position. In general, they aren't knowledgeable enough to recognize the signs of stress. 



Some of the owners had done Petsmart training. Some had done no training. They all seemed to be loving owners. The dogs were all well cared for. None of the owners were interested in recommendations for local dog sport trainers (like agility or dog dancing, or more advanced obedience). 



That has been my real life experience. 

Sheilah


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Thx jonrob


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> Nope, nothing with titles, and that's the point. That's not my specialty. My specialty is family/companion dogs, especially fixing problem behaviors. I don't tell people how to train Schutzhund dogs. It's not my thing and I have never claimed expertise in this kind of training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly disagree that titling dogs in any venue is not applicable or relevant to training pet dogs. It's SO relevant. Not every pet dog trainer has put any titles on a dog, that's true. But what you learn about timing, correction, reward, temperament, how to apply those to different temperaments, how dogs respond to distractions and learn to perform despite whatever else is going on- that's ALL totally relevant to pet dog training.

And this is not specific to Schutzhund (sorry IGP sounds so dumb, but I know it isn't called Sch anymore) but im my opinion anything you compete and title your dog at-- you learn how to get your dog to do what it needs to do in the absence of rewards, training tools, collars, etc., because they aren't allowed at trial, and at the end of the day isn't that what a pet home wants. They want a dog who will just do what they ask whether or not they have a particular tool on the dog or have hot dogs in their pocket.

The better you get at teaching a dog to do whatever endeavor you're titling in is repetition where you get to perfect your timing, rewards, corrections, body language, communication, recognizing all those from the dog too and then getting the dog to perform in the absence of a lot of that.---those things make a pet dog trainer WAY better at what they do. 

Best of all you get to proof all your skills on a dog who worst case scenario doesn't get a Q that day instead of proofing on someone's aggressive dog who might hurt the baby if you get it wrong. That's why I think it matters.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> Are GSD guide dogs dumbed down? I don't think so.
> 
> I totally respect Dave's preference for the military style GSD. We need those dogs, and I was a huge fan of Fama from the day he started writing about her.
> 
> ...


Soft dogs don't usually make good service dogs... I guess depending on what kind of soft and your definition because I've heard different ones. 

My GSD who was a great service dog I would not describe as soft in any way.

From my own research the breeders producing GSDs who are making it as SDs are mostly working line breeders--- not the breeders producing the type of GSDs that these folks are complaining about saying it's a golden with uppy ears or whatever.

My girl who worked is WL and she was not the only puppy from her litter who was a successful SD.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

sit said:


> I have no idea what their sales records look like, obviously. I am basing my opinion on the people who own a Patchwork dog that I have run into while out and about in the community. I live 20 minutes down the road from their location. I have run into Patchwork dogs at food truck rallies, farmer markets, kids soccer games, local parks...you get the idea. They have been breeding for over ten years and there are a lot of their dogs floating around this area.
> 
> 
> I love dogs and I love the breed, so I talk to people. I ask where they got their dog and what they are doing with it. The Patchwork dogs that I have met in person, rather than on the internet, have been a little on the soft side. Because of the noisy and crowded environments of some of these meets, there have been a few dogs that seemed totally overwhelmed and stressed. The owners had no idea they were putting their dogs in a bad position. In general, they aren't knowledgeable enough to recognize the signs of stress.
> ...



Which is exactly the sort of information a breeder could find out simply by getting some AKC obedience titles. Dog shows are often noisy, chaotic, crowded and a little stressful. 

Plus you might need to stay overnight in a hotel or a campground (or you do around here where the nearest anything is a couple hours away) and then you see your dog walking around a campground at night with kids popping out of nowhere and strangers and strange noises etc etc etc.

But if you don't have that information you just carry on breeding none the wiser. And, stressed dogs bite.

Confident, calm ones are much less likely, if you know what I mean


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Which is exactly the sort of information a breeder could find out simply by getting some AKC obedience titles. Dog shows are often noisy, chaotic, crowded and a little stressful.
> 
> Plus you might need to stay overnight in a hotel or a campground (or you do around here where the nearest anything is a couple hours away) and then you see your dog walking around a campground at night with kids popping out of nowhere and strangers and strange noises etc etc etc.
> 
> ...


Or you could have to live in a motel, camp in weird spots, deal with tree branches smashing through your window, vehicles needing to be towed, running out of gas, hitch hiking. The list goes on and I can state absolutely that far to many just pets would shred under this pressure.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I skim the forum nowadays mostly because there are so many many threads that are basically the same - I bought a dog - it has issue A, issue B or issue C....I just wanted a pet....I felt sorry for it....I didn't want to spend $2000 when there are so many dogs for $xhundred/free/in shelters/in rescues.....


I will say this with total conviction - EVERY DOG I BREED is sold to a "pet home"....every single one. My contract states that the dog MUST be kept as a "member of the family"....not in a kennel or combo of kennel and crate and only out for training. A correctly tempered dog does NOT want to live in a kennel...it wants to be with it's person/people. I sell alot of pups to people who say they will title it....and don't - and a few who get hooked on training and are titling their dogs. I have sold a couple that I gnash my teeth over as I had one pup and 2 buyers and chose the one who basically conned me - said everything to make me want him to have the pup as I wanted that boy to go to a working home - and he had no intentions of following through - and sent the other buyer to someone who sold her a nervy dog with bad hips    .....but the pup is loved and the owner has the resources to care for it well..... I train and work my dogs. I have imported dogs, I have had dogs whose family has been with me for 4-5 generations. 

I get frustrated when people say that they "JUST" want a pet....do they realize they are asking for so many random possibilities? No care for the genetic combos, no temperament testing, no biddability, no health testing???? Random mixes of type - backyard dogs bred to highly aggressive working pedigrees, to pedigrees with horrible hip statistics etc etc. Dogs bred for prettiness - long coats, colors, blocky heads - skewed priorities to meet market demand! 

The internet has opened Pandora's box for people to set up clever marketing, pretty pictures and disseminate carefully chosen misleading information - heck - the AR terrorists are masters of it....playing on people's heartstrings with a horrific agenda that they carefully keep low key............

The market for working dogs and the carefully promoted mystique for DDR and Czech dogs has caused a huge glut of puppies for sale who are bred by people who import some dogs and just set up a website and go for the money!!! I see a couple of these with people who fell for the marketing...they paid as much for a dog with a mixed BYB pet pedigree with some Czech as they would to buy a dog off a very reputable breeder....and I see the cracks in the dog already.

Working titles and credentials are very very very useful...I don't limit myself to schutzhund (we all still CALL it that - no matter the new name LOL LOL) dogs but to real work working credentials as well.


Lee


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

"It takes nothing away from those who prefer harder GSDs if someone breeds softer GSDs that make good service, therapy or family dogs. There will always be plenty of hard GSDs, especially in today's world."

I think a ton of people involved with dogs for military, police, etc would disagree with that. Why do you think malinois and dutch shepherds are replacing GSDs for so many jobs? Heck it's hard enough to even find a GSD that can do Schutzhund anymore. The watering down doesnt just extend to dogs used for bite work, there is a huge shortage of domestic bred detection dogs. It's pretty well known that it's getting harder to find GSDs capable of doing that kind of work. The sole reason for that is the breed has been watered down. What is this obsession with people thinking Schutzhund/working dogs aren't also good pets? 

Quote:
"Which is why you don't see the top Schutzhund trainers focusing on solving family/companion dog behavior problems."

Huh? I can't think of a single Schutzhund trainer that trains dogs for a living that does not do a lot of work with companion/pet dogs not related to sport work. Most start out only training pets and then progress to training at a higher level.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> Thx jonrob


Don't worry about all the hopping and hand flapping--it has absolutely nothing to do with you. You are totally cool. Any excuse will do to set this stuff off on these kinds of forums.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> Mvp said:
> 
> 
> > Thx jonrob
> ...


What if Mvp had chosen a Cane Corso, Presa or Dogo and had the same issues? 

Mvp, I applaud you for having the courage to seek help and do the hard thing. This sort of thing happens all the time. Normal people (meaning not us dog nuts) don't have any frame of reference for what it takes to have a protection dog, or really even a protection type breed. There is a learning curve and it really is best to have help through that process.

I have 2 Cane Corso dogs that both ended up with me because the owners just couldn't handle them. One bit a few people. I also have a board and train here that's a 7mo GSD with some minor issues. He's starting to push his owner around.

I truly hope you find the perfect dog for your family!


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

JonRob said:


> Don't worry about all the hopping and hand flapping--it has absolutely nothing to do with you. You are totally cool. Any excuse will do to set this stuff off on these kinds of forums.


This confuses me. People have been very kind and respectful when disagreeing with you. I’m guessing you wouldn’t have said “hopping,” “hand-flapping,” and “set this stuff off on THESE kind of forums” if people were agreeing with you. 

People have very legitimate points. You don’t have to agree to be respectful. Your comment was very dismissive.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

astrovan2487 said:


> Quote:
> "Which is why you don't see the top Schutzhund trainers focusing on solving family/companion dog behavior problems."
> 
> Huh? I can't think of a single Schutzhund trainer that trains dogs for a living that does not do a lot of work with companion/pet dogs not related to sport work. Most start out only training pets and then progress to training at a higher level.


That statement does kind of gives away the actual knowledge base in this thread.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Very interesting day today for me in California. My k9 ,Retired police officer , dog trainer here brought by a three-year-old police canine certified in narcotics and street work that washed out of the program . He apparently washed out because during swat raids and a lot of stimulation, he did not do that well in those types of police pursuit settings. He states that he wanted me to see what a balanced dog looks like. Me and my wife wanted to see, for curiosity. Not sure what to think. Very high prey drive. Low defense drive,, Or appropriate threshold. Did not even bark the whole time he was here . Didn’t even really acknowledge any dogs or noises and some dogs walking up my driveway. Hard to drive with this dog in the car. Great on leash but my old dog was way better in obedience . He said he was fully trained but maybe in law-enforcement stuff . Certainly not trained inside the house or how to sit and lay down in the car . My kids pet the dog while he was eating kibble and drinking water with no issues . I upped the challenge with a rib bone. He left it for a tennis ball but came back to the rib bone and my daughter touched him and he growled slightly. A few hours later I gave him a squeaky toy to play with and My Wife patted him on the back while I he had the toy and he slightly growled. He certainly bonded with me within an hour and gave me the proverbial French kiss around the mouth for one minute . My other dog was so much more less energy. Which we loved. He just had high defensive drive and low level threshold for reactivity . This dog seems a little nervy. He urinated a little when he met my girls. My ideal dog would be a little from both dogs. Lower prey drive and low possession drive with medium defense if that’s possible in WL. I will say after seeing this dog with the above comments,, should I have waited to rehome my other dog. Boy I had second thoughts all day. Well another day with him tomorrow. Thx


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Hmmm, he sounds like a good dog for someone, and I truly hope he finds a home soon, but I don't know if it's the right fit for your family at this time. You're getting advice from people far more knowledgeable than me, and I'm sure they'll chime in. But I personally would wait for a puppy from Wolfstraum (or another breeder you trust, if you so choose. But Lee sounds like she knows what would work for your situation). You'll have to go through the puppy/training stage again but the puppy will start out as a stable/blank slate and can grow up with the kids and get used to your household. That's one of the reasons I wanted to get a puppy from a breeder instead of an adult from a rescue. Just my non-expert thoughts. I'm sure you'll do what's best for you and yours. Don't second guess yourself. I still think you made the right decision about the other dog. Doesn't make the decision any easier. Wishing you the best.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I wouldn't do what your doing with this dog Mvp. Don't put your kids in that position with a dog you don't know and that you're trying to figure out how all these different terms may apply to.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mvp said:


> Very interesting day today for me in California. My k9 ,Retired police officer , dog trainer here brought by a three-year-old police canine certified in narcotics and street work that washed out of the program . He apparently washed out because during swat raids and a lot of stimulation, he did not do that well in those types of police pursuit settings. He states that he wanted me to see what a balanced dog looks like. Me and my wife wanted to see, for curiosity. Not sure what to think. Very high prey drive. Low defense drive,, Or appropriate threshold. Did not even bark the whole time he was here . Didn’t even really acknowledge any dogs or noises and some dogs walking up my driveway. Hard to drive with this dog in the car. Great on leash but my old dog was way better in obedience . He said he was fully trained but maybe in law-enforcement stuff . Certainly not trained inside the house or how to sit and lay down in the car . My kids pet the dog while he was eating kibble and drinking water with no issues . I upped the challenge with a rib bone. He left it for a tennis ball but came back to the rib bone and my daughter touched him and he growled slightly. A few hours later I gave him a squeaky toy to play with and My Wife patted him on the back while I he had the toy and he slightly growled. He certainly bonded with me within an hour and gave me the proverbial French kiss around the mouth for one minute . My other dog was so much more less energy. Which we loved. He just had high defensive drive and low level threshold for reactivity . This dog seems a little nervy. He urinated a little when he met my girls. My ideal dog would be a little from both dogs. Lower prey drive and low possession drive with medium defense if that’s possible in WL. I will say after seeing this dog with the above comments,, should I have waited to rehome my other dog. Boy I had second thoughts all day. Well another day with him tomorrow. Thx



I honestly don't think you were fair to him. You gave a strange dog a rib bone and a toy. He doesn't know you. I'm not surprised he growled. The peeing could be submissive or excited. Depending on other factors, he may or may not be nervy. I am surprised you are giving a dog that growled at you on the first day another day? You just went thru this with the first one.

No, you should not have waited to rehome your other dog. You did the right thing by him and your family. You need to just settle and wait for Lee. Yes, balanced drives are absolutely achievable in working lines. Regardless of chatter that says otherwise.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I've suggested many times that a person looking for a good family dog should take a vacation driving through southern states or wherever there are excess dogs in kill-shelters. Take a week, take your time, don't let pure emotions get in the way and you will more than likely find a gem of a dog. 

Of course, do your homework on HW, get all necessary paperwork and vetting for transport, etc...

Can't tell much about the wash-out K9 on a one day visit with all that was going on, but excitable/nervous urination (hard to say what was going on) wouldn't be a good sign along with the reason he washed out. Gotta question the trainer if he was using this dog as an example of a balanced GSD?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

All of the things mentioned by OP regarding messing with a dog that is eating or chewing on a bone is the beginning stages of training a dog to resource guard. Rinse and repeat?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> I wouldn't do what your doing with this dog Mvp. Don't put your kids in that position with a dog you don't know and that you're trying to figure out how all these different terms may apply to.


THIS

Don't let your kids pet any dog while it's eating, let alone a dog the day you met it...oh that scared the crap out me!! It's russian roulette and I don't care what the owners of the dog tell you about it


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Mvp said:


> Very interesting day today for me in California. My k9 ,Retired police officer , dog trainer here brought by a three-year-old police canine certified in narcotics and street work that washed out of the program . He apparently washed out because during swat raids and a lot of stimulation, he did not do that well in those types of police pursuit settings. He states that he wanted me to see what a balanced dog looks like. Me and my wife wanted to see, for curiosity. Not sure what to think. Very high prey drive. Low defense drive,, Or appropriate threshold. Did not even bark the whole time he was here . Didn’t even really acknowledge any dogs or noises and some dogs walking up my driveway. Hard to drive with this dog in the car. Great on leash but my old dog was way better in obedience . He said he was fully trained but maybe in law-enforcement stuff . Certainly not trained inside the house or how to sit and lay down in the car . My kids pet the dog while he was eating kibble and drinking water with no issues . I upped the challenge with a rib bone. He left it for a tennis ball but came back to the rib bone and my daughter touched him and he growled slightly. A few hours later I gave him a squeaky toy to play with and My Wife patted him on the back while I he had the toy and he slightly growled. He certainly bonded with me within an hour and gave me the proverbial French kiss around the mouth for one minute . My other dog was so much more less energy. Which we loved. He just had high defensive drive and low level threshold for reactivity . This dog seems a little nervy. He urinated a little when he met my girls. My ideal dog would be a little from both dogs. Lower prey drive and low possession drive with medium defense if that’s possible in WL. I will say after seeing this dog with the above comments,, should I have waited to rehome my other dog. Boy I had second thoughts all day. Well another day with him tomorrow. Thx


This sounds so dangerous.... I just can't even say how much I hope you don't do any of this again with this dog or any other dog. Kids petting while eating a rib bone? It growled and then more petting with resources????


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> I upped the challenge with a rib bone. He left it for a tennis ball but came back to the rib bone and my daughter touched him and he growled slightly. A few hours later I gave him a squeaky toy to play with and My Wife patted him on the back while I he had the toy and he slightly growled.


It was worth a worth a try but this is not good at all. If this were me, that dog would be out of my house *now*. It's absolutely not worth the risk to your kids and your wife. And possibly you.



Mvp said:


> should I have waited to rehome my other dog. Boy I had second thoughts all day.


Nope, you absolutely did the right thing with your other dog. And now you need to do the right thing with this dog. As he gains confidence in his new environment, he is likely to go from growling to biting.

Compare this dog and your previous dog with one of the Patchwork sires: "Not a dominant male and has no problem sharing his food or toys with anyone." No excuses made or needed for this dog.



Jax08 said:


> I honestly don't think you were fair to him. You gave a strange dog a rib bone and a toy. He doesn't know you. I'm not surprised he growled.
> 
> You need to just settle and wait for Lee. Yes, balanced drives are absolutely achievable in working lines. Regardless of chatter that says otherwise.


You usually get what you breed for--and what you make excuses for.

That's twice now with these kinds of lines.

When taking advice, you need to consider the agendas of those giving the advice. My experience has been that the primary loyalty of many breeders is to their breeder friends, not to the puppy buyer. This is why they insist that you wait possibly years for a puppy from a breeder pal when you could easily get the puppy or dog you need from a breeder they dislike.

I have no idea what the agendas might be for folks on this forum. However, it bothers me that the folks who tell you to wait express no concern for what you are supposed to do about your significant security problems while you wait, possibly for a very long time. Every police officer I have asked about this subject tells me that a dog--particularly a GSD--is the best crime deterrent a person can get. And it doesn't have to be a protection trained dog. The mere presence of the dog makes the scum go elsewhere unless you have something that is a lot more valuable than what your neighbors have.

Also, why should your kids have to wait a long time for a puppy or dog? Having a dog can be the best thing in the world for a kid while they are growing up. They are not going to replay their childhood after you get a dog. 

It's one thing to wait years for the right sport dog. But your situation is totally different.

I think Lee breeds excellent GSDs. But planned breedings often fall through. If they do happen, the breeding may not take. If the breeding does take, the bitch may miscarry. If the pregnancy does come to term, the pups may die during or soon after delivery. Or only one pup may be born.

I would never postpone my family's security by waiting for a puppy that exists only in the mind of a breeder--no matter how good--and might not appear for years.

The K9 trainer who bought you the dog also has an agenda--he needs to unload a dog that washed out, and he needs to make some money by doing so or at least recoup his losses.

I don't breed. I knock breeders right off my recommended list as soon as their lines start showing problems. I have had to do this with breeders that I like very much personally. I don't broker dog sales. I have never made money from a dog sale. I have always refused to take money when it has been offered for breeder referrals.

My first loyalty is to the dog--I will not ever suggest that a dog be placed in an unsuitable home. My loyalty to the dog/puppy buyer is a very close second. I do not share the contempt for puppy buyers that so many have expressed on this forum.

One of the posters here complained that the Patchwork dogs she met tended to be soft. That is exactly what you need. 

My soft GSDs have protected me and others when push came to shove and there was real danger, and not out of some crazy resource possession drive. And I never had to worry about them biting or threatening a kid or some harmless stranger. They have been truly balanced dogs.

One of my girlfriend's GSDs--a soft puppy mill rescue, the sweetest boy ever, who didn't give a crap about toys and would happily have shared his food with anyone--was ready to attack a thug who was threatening to beat up his very frightened ex-wife, a total stranger to my dog. The dog meant business, and when my girlfriend told the thug she would open her car door and let the dog out, he ran off in a hurry. That was a truly balanced dog.

Genetics matters. You usually get what you breed for.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

A threat is not the same as real protection. Most dogs will bark. Most dogs will run when barking doesn't work. OP, maybe I missed it, but do you need a dog that will actually defend you and your family or is what you are looking for is a dog that is a deterrent based on size, looks and / or barking? 

My experience is that your normal, every day person is intimidated by a barking dog. The average thug, not so much. Thugs will test your dogs, most can tell which dog is bluffing.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Is the handler there with the dog through out the time and during these interactions and will he be there today. I would imagine that he is since he just wanted to show you the dog and his temperament. I would imagine that he was there when the dog gave a slight growl and appropriately handled it, offered discussion of it and other observations you made.

Don’t doubt the choices you make or your gut instinct.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Mvp said:


> Very interesting day today for me in California. My k9 ,Retired police officer , dog trainer here brought by a three-year-old police canine certified in narcotics and street work that washed out of the program . He apparently washed out because during swat raids and a lot of stimulation, he did not do that well in those types of police pursuit settings. He states that he wanted me to see what a balanced dog looks like. Me and my wife wanted to see, for curiosity. Not sure what to think. Very high prey drive. Low defense drive,, Or appropriate threshold. Did not even bark the whole time he was here . Didn’t even really acknowledge any dogs or noises and some dogs walking up my driveway. Hard to drive with this dog in the car. Great on leash but my old dog was way better in obedience . He said he was fully trained but maybe in law-enforcement stuff . Certainly not trained inside the house or how to sit and lay down in the car . My kids pet the dog while he was eating kibble and drinking water with no issues . I upped the challenge with a rib bone. He left it for a tennis ball but came back to the rib bone and my daughter touched him and he growled slightly. A few hours later I gave him a squeaky toy to play with and My Wife patted him on the back while I he had the toy and he slightly growled. He certainly bonded with me within an hour and gave me the proverbial French kiss around the mouth for one minute . My other dog was so much more less energy. Which we loved. He just had high defensive drive and low level threshold for reactivity . This dog seems a little nervy. He urinated a little when he met my girls. My ideal dog would be a little from both dogs. Lower prey drive and low possession drive with medium defense if that’s possible in WL. I will say after seeing this dog with the above comments,, should I have waited to rehome my other dog. Boy I had second thoughts all day. Well another day with him tomorrow. Thx


You took a lot of risk, meeting this dog, including risking your kids being bitten (in red). This meeting was supposed to proof what a balanced dog looks like (in blue)?
I can't believe his owner put his dog at risk of biting. Don't expect a dog not being a dog anymore by thinking you can take away a toy, food from a strange dog. The dog was in his own right to growl, which is a warning only and the guy should have never put him in that situation. How can you know that the dog bonded with you? That doesn't happen in a few minutes, it takes weeks for a new dog to truly bond. I would not take advice from this dog trainer. Could his intention have been to rehome the dog to your family? Before committing to your next dog/pup take a knowledgeable trainer with you to determine what the best dog or puppy from the litter is for your family. You may have chosen your breeder but that doesn't mean that every pup in the litter is a good match, just because you trust the breeder.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Agendas huh. Lol. You do know that a puppy, even if its from the best lines Poland has to offer, does not meet significant security needs though, right? May get stolen right along with the TV.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@*JonRob* - so what is your agenda? You are the only one showing contempt to people and dogs here while crying foul.

**removed by ADMIN**

You are promoting breeders whose dogs you don't know. You bash good breeders without actually knowing the dogs but promote a business selling Quardes progreny as appropriate for service.

You are claiming IPO trainers do not train pet dogs and know nothing about them while claiming dogs that are in IPO do not have the qualities for a pet. All of that easily disproved by just looking at the websites of many USCA national champions and the 2015 WUSV champion as well as doing simple math on the number of people actually in the sport vs how much a trainer would make training ONLY IPO clients. And the numerous pictures of these dogs surrounded by family and children....

You say Lee is an excellent breeder and you love Fama while stating "That's twice now with these kinds of lines.' They are ALL working line. So are they good? Or are they bad? You can't generalize one statement and claim excellence the next. BTW...I actually DO know many of Lee's dogs and yes, they are very nice dogs.

You claim you are a trainer but I can claim I'm Donald Duck. I'm sure a professional trainer such as yourself has a website and you won't mind sharing it to verify your credentials. Especially since you felt free to go to someone else's instagram and bully them to the point of it being illegal.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> @*JonRob* - so what is your agenda? You are the only one showing contempt to people and dogs here while crying foul.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The PMing forum members about selling & the IG bullying...wow


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Why are you looking for another dog so soon? Let the nerves and unease from the previous dog settle for you and your family before trying to introduce another dog to a family that is already shaky from the last one. Your family needs downtime to reset, otherwise they are going to relay those same emotions to the new dog.

I get the fact that you want to test a dog that comes into your home, but doing it on day one isn’t good for anyone. The dog didn’t even have time to get comfortable in your home before you started pushing him. You’re getting the behaviors you’re setting up yourself. Any dog is not going to want a high value treat be taken from them, let alone a stranger trying to take it! 

I don’t work with breeders, and couldn’t give you a referral even if I did, because I’m not sure the pup would not end up in the same situation.

My dogs are great around my children. Two rescues, one breeder pup. We teach our children hands off. Especially if they have a high value treat (bully sticks are their jam). Not because I’m afraid any of them will bite, but because my dogs have earned the right to be rewarded and left alone. 

Crios was a big time resource guarder when he first came to me. First rule, he was fed alone and no one touched his food. If I wanted the bowl, I wouldn’t just reach out and take it while he was eating from it. I would place him in a sit/stay, pick his bowl up, and add something extra yummy to it. He caught on pretty quickly that he needn’t fear his food being taken by other animals or humans. I’d let the kids know I was feeding, so they knew to stay away while we went through the training process. I can pick his bowl up mid feed if I wanted to now, and he doesn’t curl a lip or growl. He sits and looks at me like “what yummy am I getting this time.” Sometimes it’s nothing, I’ll just stir his food around with my hand, and he thinks I’ve added something. My kids can walk by him while he’s eating with zero issue. But they still know it’s hands off, and I still separate him (as well as the other two) for feed time. He guards high value treats. So he gets those high value treats in his crate. No need to stress the dog and the family out wondering if he’s going to come unglued over a bully stick. 

I’m just not understanding why you are having your children interacting with a resource guarder at all. None of mine are pet when they are eating. Not because I’m afraid someone will be bit, but because they are eating. I wouldn’t want someone to come take my plate mid meal, or start rubbing all over me. I’d growl too. 

Toys are a different matter, but not by much. We play with two of ours with toys, and my children can play by throwing the ball. They love that. But I’m the one they return the ball to. My kids don’t need to be by teeth. The dogs (except the pup) are already bigger than my children, I’m not going to setup the dogs or the children for failure. They play gentle tug with the puppy. Only DH plays tug with our 2yr old. 

Squeaky toys are not a thing in our house. I can’t handle the noise. We remove all squeakers. The kids know if the dogs are playing with a toy on their on, it’s their downtime, and they don’t touch the dogs. Neither do I. They are relaxing and unwinding, and doing nothing wrong, no reason to take the toy or be a pest to the dog. 

I can safely say that I can take anything of value from any of my three, and they are fine with it. We practice safe dog interaction, manage what could go wrong (even though it’s been over a year we’ve gotten a growl or lip curl from Crios). 

How small is your child? And why are you using her as bait? Is she old enough to know when you tell her no touching, it means NO touching? Or is she to young? If she’s too young to understand, she shouldn’t be interacting with a dog, especially a strange one. She shouldn’t be petting dogs that are eating or playing with a toy. The older my children get, the more they are allowed to interact with the dogs. 

And why a dog for home protection? Most burglars will run once an alarm goes off. And the ones that don’t aren’t going to run because of a dog. They are generally armed and won’t hesitate to shot a dog rushing them. And as much as we all like to say that our beloved scary looking dogs will defend us or the home with an intruder, most wont. Watch leerburg, (or just google the topic, there are lots out there) he has videos up of PP trained dogs not doing anything to an intruder walking into their backyard, or house. 

A loud scary sounding bark can chase away the low level scum. Get a motion recorder of a GSD. Someone approaches, hears a scary dog, and moves on to the next house.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

At 5 years old I was seriously bit by a neighbor’s dog. He tore a chunk out of my thigh and calf. I needed two feet of gauze stuffed into my thigh (a small, skinny 5 year old thigh). 

I had to be carried everywhere for months because the slightest pressure of walking caused the stitches to break open. I had to relearn how to walk. I don’t remember much about the initial pain of the bite because my body went into shock. I screamed so loud at the hospital, the nurses put a pillow over my mouth. I just remember my dad going ballistic on the nurses afterwards. 

Why? I pet a neighbor’s dog while it was eating. This was in the late 70’s when a dog was treated like a dog. They weren’t coddled. This was a **** Hound that bit me. 

There is no such thing as a kid gene. Any dog can bite under the right circumstances. I’ve never owned a resource guarder who guarded food or toys from me. I go to great lengths to ensure that won’t happen. However, a dog is a dog. I don’t trust strangers to pet my dog when he’s eating. While he won’t bite or growl at me, I don’t know what will happen if someone he doesn’t know or trust does. I will NEVER take that risk. 

You never pet a strange dog while it’s eating. I don’t care what the owner says. If an owner tells you to pet their dog while eating, they’re an idiot. This type of situation is entirely preventable. And, IMO, children should be taught not to mess with a dog while eating.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I watched a show on burglary once. A former burger was asked what was the best deterrent from burglars. He said a barking dog. The interviewer asked was it because they were afraid of being bit. The former burglar said no. He said a barking dog gave the owner of the house time to get their gun.

Sometimes, all you need is a barking dog. With that being said, just the look of a German Shepherd is a visual deterrent.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Mvp said:


> Very interesting day today for me in California. My k9 ,Retired police officer , dog trainer here brought by a three-year-old police canine certified in narcotics and street work that washed out of the program . He apparently washed out because during swat raids and a lot of stimulation, he did not do that well in those types of police pursuit settings. He states that he wanted me to see what a balanced dog looks like. Me and my wife wanted to see, for curiosity. Not sure what to think. Very high prey drive. Low defense drive,, Or appropriate threshold. Did not even bark the whole time he was here . Didn’t even really acknowledge any dogs or noises and some dogs walking up my driveway. Hard to drive with this dog in the car. Great on leash but my old dog was way better in obedience . He said he was fully trained but maybe in law-enforcement stuff . Certainly not trained inside the house or how to sit and lay down in the car . My kids pet the dog while he was eating kibble and drinking water with no issues . I upped the challenge with a rib bone. He left it for a tennis ball but came back to the rib bone and my daughter touched him and he growled slightly. A few hours later I gave him a squeaky toy to play with and My Wife patted him on the back while I he had the toy and he slightly growled. He certainly bonded with me within an hour and gave me the proverbial French kiss around the mouth for one minute . My other dog was so much more less energy. Which we loved. He just had high defensive drive and low level threshold for reactivity . This dog seems a little nervy. He urinated a little when he met my girls. My ideal dog would be a little from both dogs. Lower prey drive and low possession drive with medium defense if that’s possible in WL. I will say after seeing this dog with the above comments,, should I have waited to rehome my other dog. Boy I had second thoughts all day. Well another day with him tomorrow. Thx


Don't test things you aren't prepared for when they go wrong. He may react differently to almost everything you mentioned 2 weeks from now. Don't get into the weeds on drives. You want a solid dog with good nerves, confident like David mentioned. A stable dog, you can work with their drives. With a puppy, you can influence their perception of a lot of these things and I think avoid what your first experience was. This dog is what he is and you'd be right back to where you were trying to figure out how to deal with it. And you don't want a Mal.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> It was worth a worth a try but this is not good at all. If this were me, that dog would be out of my house *now*. It's absolutely not worth the risk to your kids and your wife. And possibly you.
> 
> Nope, you absolutely did the right thing with your other dog. And now you need to do the right thing with this dog. As he gains confidence in his new environment, he is likely to go from growling to biting.
> 
> ...


OMG, I don't have an "agenda". As hard as you are pushing this person to buy a puppy from this particular breeder it really sounds like you are the one with an agenda, just saying. 

MVP, I hope you don't make a hasty decision. Wasn't it you yourself who said your previous hasty decision got you in trouble?

So far what's the bigger threat to your family? To me it sounds like the biggest actual immediate threat to this family is unsuitable dogs being handled unsafely!! I think they'd be safer with no dog in the house.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Mvp said:


> Very interesting day today for me in California. My k9 ,Retired police officer , dog trainer here brought by a three-year-old police canine certified in narcotics and street work that washed out of the program . He apparently washed out because during swat raids and a lot of stimulation, he did not do that well in those types of police pursuit settings. He states that he wanted me to see what a balanced dog looks like. Me and my wife wanted to see, for curiosity. Not sure what to think. Very high prey drive. Low defense drive,, Or appropriate threshold. Did not even bark the whole time he was here . Didn’t even really acknowledge any dogs or noises and some dogs walking up my driveway. Hard to drive with this dog in the car. Great on leash but my old dog was way better in obedience . He said he was fully trained but maybe in law-enforcement stuff . Certainly not trained inside the house or how to sit and lay down in the car . My kids pet the dog while he was eating kibble and drinking water with no issues . I upped the challenge with a rib bone. He left it for a tennis ball but came back to the rib bone and my daughter touched him and he growled slightly. A few hours later I gave him a squeaky toy to play with and My Wife patted him on the back while I he had the toy and he slightly growled. He certainly bonded with me within an hour and gave me the proverbial French kiss around the mouth for one minute . My other dog was so much more less energy. Which we loved. He just had high defensive drive and low level threshold for reactivity . This dog seems a little nervy. He urinated a little when he met my girls. My ideal dog would be a little from both dogs. Lower prey drive and low possession drive with medium defense if that’s possible in WL. I will say after seeing this dog with the above comments,, should I have waited to rehome my other dog. Boy I had second thoughts all day. Well another day with him tomorrow. Thx


One more thing I didn't notice at first because the others were so much scarier. I don't let any dog I just met kiss my face--my face is nowhere near within reach of any dog I just met. I deal with new dogs constantly. Sometimes I do tell the owners that I'm deliberately ignoring their dog because I can see the dog is nervous or the dog is obviously not making social overtures to me and so I mind my own business. It doesn't mean I don't love dogs. I just value my face being in one piece at the end of every day.

Our rules are (this is for dogs we don't know OR dogs we do know in new playgroups)- no sitting down, kneeling down, squatting down. No over the head petting. If the dog is obviously making social overtures to me the first thing I'll do is just say something pleasant and make a flat palm by my leg if they want to lick my hand. Depending on the dog then a neck or shoulder scratch. when they arrive often they are overwhelmed or stressed-- like it sounds like this dog was too, and the last thing they want is some human getting all over them.

other rules we use with boarders-- depending on the dog-- even coming back for an empty bowl after a meal we look for freezing or stares. Sometimes throw a cookie to the back of the kennel before picking up bowl or I had an Akita I didn't trust where I use one of those extended grabby things for short people to pick up her bowl because she would stand by it and I am just not bending over to pick up a food bowl from an Akita where now my face is right at bite level.

Then there's another whole slew of boarder dogs I won't let kiss my face because they stink so bad and some of them eat poop. BLEH.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JonRob said:


> It was worth a worth a try but this is not good at all. If this were me, that dog would be out of my house *now*. It's absolutely not worth the risk to your kids and your wife. And possibly you.
> 
> Nope, you absolutely did the right thing with your other dog. And now you need to do the right thing with this dog. As he gains confidence in his new environment, he is likely to go from growling to biting.
> 
> ...


And my very soft, very timid rescue bit the idiot that walked into my bedroom. Because she was cornered and scared, not because she was brave or balanced. Then she bit an idiot in a parking lot. Shadow adores me, and would make an attempt at protecting me because I am her world, her safe place, her everything. But excessive fear makes any dog unpredictable. 
I have seen dogs go bonkers in cars, then cut and run when loose. Barking and carrying on in a car does not mean anything. At best it's territorial. I have seen supposed protection dogs bolt because someone kicked them.
I rescued and rehabbed for years. I NEVER pushed my dogs on anyone and I NEVER condemn someone for not wanting to take the risk. A few of my rescues ended up as service dogs or working dogs, BUT I NEVER PROMOTED THEM THAT WAY! 
The breeders promoted on here are pretty well screened since most have members here with their dogs. 
I happen to really like the dogs of a breeder who is not popular on here, and I question some of her choices. But she has produced several working K-9's, several service dogs and a couple of dogs that do that cancer detection stuff. I also speak regularly with people she has sold pups to. Sadly she won't be breeding anymore for personal reasons because I would suspect she was on the right track.
You seem to be the only one pushing an agenda, and it has seemed from the start to be mostly slamming ethical breeders. Specifically WL breeders.
And for the record, I love my little genetic disaster and she isn't going anywhere, until the day she dies. But she will be the LAST rescue I ever take on. And given how I lost Sabi there will never be another BYB, pet breeder dog in my house. Future dogs will come from one of the above mentioned ethical, WL breeders that I have come to "know" through this forum.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> * Breeders should be breeding to the standard. *If that doesn't suit someone, then perhaps they should choose another breed or create another one.
> 
> *Guide dogs are specifically bred for traits that are desirable for their work, they are not being bred with an eye for the breed standard.* The reasons are many as to why GSDs aren't being used in this venue in great numbers. Can the GSD guide dogs perform satisfactory in other work venues as required? If not, then you tell me, are they being dumbed down?/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

To the OP, if you are interested in one of Lees dogs I have one as a pet, sport dog, and working dog as well as train and see numerous other related dogs on a regular basis. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you want more info. 

ANY dog can bite a child, dont let anyone fool you into thinking otherwise. 
If you are in that dire of a need for protection a dog is a very bad idea for a primary source of protection, you will never truly know how they will react untill put in a life/death situation. I live outside of Baltimore and DC and you constantly hear stories of peoples houses being broken into and their large, barking dogs getting shot, beat, or killed by intruders who arent scared.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*All of the personal attacks, petty bickering, etc, will stop now. Anyone who continues this nonsense following this post will be put on suspension. No warnings, no "oops", nada. 
*
*
*
*Back on topic. 
*
*
*
*ADMIN Lisa*


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Just one other thing. Mvp is one of the most intelligent and conscientious people my girlfriend and I have ever met. And his family behaves perfectly appropriately and reasonably with dogs. We do not meet folks like him very often. We are so impressed with him that we have promised him lifetime training and dog support, free of charge, anytime, regardless of where he gets his next dog or whether he takes our advice. It is a promise we make to very few people. And it will be a privilege to keep our promise to him and his family.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MVP, I think you’re on the right track working with Lee/wolfstraum. There are a number of folks here with pups from her and it’s easy enough to get feedback if you’re having any questions or reservations.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

When you met, was it by any chance when the dog he was offered was there? Did you have a chance to see that interaction?


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Thank you jonrob and others for your expert opinions. Again I find this group very professional , insightful and knowledgeable. I hope I did not cause any problems. I have sent YouTube videos to some of you. Maybe I don’t express my text messages very clearly but I would never put my children at risk meeting a new dog. The trainer was a foot away with me. It really didn’t go down like that. I’m not an expert but I have been around some pretty mean Czechoslovakian dogs in my protection group for the last eight months and I know how to respectfully handle them and be around them WISELY.. Again I was the one that diagnosed all these behaviors in my dog from puppyhood. I was just given bad advice by trainers on how to fix it and time went on To my detriment. Again, I’m in no hurry. I trust Lee dearly. I just wanted to see what a police washout dog look like and I don’t like it. I’m sure there are dogs out there in the middle. My dog had to much territorial aggression and thin nerves with dog aggression and a low threshold for reactivity with high possession. This dog I met was fearing every step healing in getting corrected. I don’t agree with that type of training all the time either. Also super high prey drive and no off switch. . I was very fair with the dog and he saw that I had no stress hormones being released and he knew my demeanor was good and fair and that’s why he really opened up to me after two one hour walks and playing two ball fetch for one hour in a playful greeting manner . think Jax hit it on the head- I need a lower drive low possession dog . I don’t want a protection dog anymore. Don’t see the need. But, basic protection training I might consider such as I did before with agitation and chase. I like German Shepherds,, oh well. I enjoy walking these beautiful dogs with obedience training, hiking, beach play and above all being a good family pet especially around children. I want a dog to go everywhere with me and my family . That’s what we were looking for and somehow we went down the wrong path. If he or she barks in the middle of the night when somethings off — wonderful !!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The rib bone was the trainer's idea Mvp?


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> I hope I did not cause any problems.


Of course you didn't. Please don't waste brain space worrying about this.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

For the sake of safety, I'm going to throw a couple things out there.

A police dog wash out with some bite training could end up reacting to certain situations in an unpredictable and violent manner. Winter hits and a kid runs around the corner screaming excitedly with a snow suit on (this could be mistaken as a bite suit) etc...

Most wash outs fail because of nerves. You don't want a nervy dog with some bite training in your house with your kids.

Most K9 Officers are very good at working their specific dog. They typically know little about temperament, training, dog selection or fixing behavior problems. Their job is to work their dog in the manner in which they were trained and to not screw it up. Being a handler does not make one a trainer.

Testing the temperament of a dog should never be done using children. It's dangerous enough for adults.

Protection dogs are not a purchase. They are a lifestyle and that lifestyle lasts as long as you have the dog. It is much easier and safer to arm yourself and commit to that training than to keep a protection dog. Don't believe the fancy web sites. No dog is food in - protection out, turnkey simple. It will take a lot of work on your end.

I think you would benefit from explaining your situation to the forum and soliciting suggestions as to a good course of action. There are some active duty police officers that post here and I can send some PMs if they don't respond to your inquiries.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Mvp said:


> Thank you jonrob and others for your expert opinions. Again I find this group very professional , insightful and knowledgeable. I hope I did not cause any problems. I have sent YouTube videos to some of you. Maybe I don’t express my text messages very clearly but I would never put my children at risk meeting a new dog. The trainer was a foot away with me. It really didn’t go down like that. I’m not an expert but I have been around some pretty mean Czechoslovakian dogs in my protection group for the last eight months and I know how to respectfully handle them and be around them WISELY.. Again I was the one that diagnosed all these behaviors in my dog from puppyhood. I was just given bad advice by trainers on how to fix it and time went on To my detriment. Again, I’m in no hurry. I trust Lee dearly. I just wanted to see what a police washout dog look like and I don’t like it. I’m sure there are dogs out there in the middle. My dog had to much territorial aggression and thin nerves with dog aggression and a low threshold for reactivity with high possession. This dog I met was fearing every step healing in getting corrected. I don’t agree with that type of training all the time either. Also super high prey drive and no off switch. . I was very fair with the dog and he saw that I had no stress hormones being released and he knew my demeanor was good and fair and that’s why he really opened up to me after two one hour walks and playing two ball fetch for one hour in a playful greeting manner . think Jax hit it on the head- I need a lower drive low possession dog . I don’t want a protection dog anymore. Don’t see the need. But, basic protection training I might consider such as I did before with agitation and chase. I like German Shepherds,, oh well. I enjoy walking these beautiful dogs with obedience training, hiking, beach play and above all being a good family pet especially around children. I want a dog to go everywhere with me and my family . That’s what we were looking for and somehow we went down the wrong path. If he or she barks in the middle of the night when somethings off — wonderful !!


I was fumbling my post out on my phone while you posted.

I think you have a good head on your shoulders.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> For the sake of safety, I'm going to throw a couple things out there.
> 
> A police dog wash out with some bite training could end up reacting to certain situations in an unpredictable and violent manner. "
> 
> I wondered about that...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I think you have a good head on your shoulders.


I think so too, but I do get the idea you're getting some conflicting advice. Just some things that I would take for granted would have been really prioritized for you. Trainers, K-9s, protection group, something I'm missing.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Great post, David.

Most untrained dogs won't bite for real, but put a nervy dog who's been taught to bite on a hidden sleeve in a normal suburban environment as a family pet and I just don't see that being a good deal for anyone. 

Dog might be OK working on the street but not as a pet... it really depends. There was a recent story where a police K9 escaped from the patrol car, and got his sights on another officer, ran him down and bit that officer and was shot dead. No discrimination, just the excitement of the siren, the chase, and anyone running was fair game. 

Really sad to lose a dog that way, and so sad the dog wasn't properly contained, but the management involved for a dog like this- and this was an experienced working K9- is far beyond a typical pet.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Mvp said:


> Thank you jonrob and others for your expert opinions. Again I find this group very professional , insightful and knowledgeable. I hope I did not cause any problems. I have sent YouTube videos to some of you. Maybe I don’t express my text messages very clearly but I would never put my children at risk meeting a new dog. The trainer was a foot away with me. It really didn’t go down like that. I’m not an expert but I have been around some pretty mean Czechoslovakian dogs in my protection group for the last eight months and I know how to respectfully handle them and be around them WISELY.. Again I was the one that diagnosed all these behaviors in my dog from puppyhood. I was just given bad advice by trainers on how to fix it and time went on To my detriment. Again, I’m in no hurry. I trust Lee dearly. I just wanted to see what a police washout dog look like and I don’t like it. I’m sure there are dogs out there in the middle. My dog had to much territorial aggression and thin nerves with dog aggression and a low threshold for reactivity with high possession. This dog I met was fearing every step healing in getting corrected. I don’t agree with that type of training all the time either. Also super high prey drive and no off switch. . I was very fair with the dog and he saw that I had no stress hormones being released and he knew my demeanor was good and fair and that’s why he really opened up to me after two one hour walks and playing two ball fetch for one hour in a playful greeting manner . think Jax hit it on the head- I need a lower drive low possession dog . I don’t want a protection dog anymore. Don’t see the need. But, basic protection training I might consider such as I did before with agitation and chase. I like German Shepherds,, oh well. I enjoy walking these beautiful dogs with obedience training, hiking, beach play and above all being a good family pet especially around children. I want a dog to go everywhere with me and my family . That’s what we were looking for and somehow we went down the wrong path. If he or she barks in the middle of the night when somethings off — wonderful !!



Family friendly and appropriate dogs ARE out there, MVP. And who will do exactly what you want and be happy about it. But you have to put in the work. 

My 2 are long coats, one CKC registered, one not. The older CKC girl is my service dog, she is my stability dog and is absolutely 100% what I wanted. She saved my life, literally when I was hanging off a cliff by one arm, after falling. 

I did not choose working or show line, I believe her pedigree has both. She is NOT from Patchwork or anywhere in the US, her parents and breeders emigrated to Canada with their dogs, and chose the puppy they thought would be perfect for me. She is, although she's losing her sight due to Pannus. She has NEVER touched my friendly chickens, who hang out on the doorstep, geese, canaries, horses- she has zero prey drive except for foxes- because she's smart and knows if I say GIT IT--she goes. Otherwise at 7 and losing sight, she's 96% couch potato and 2% teacher of new pup and 2% helper to me. She has always known what I wanted or didn't. I've only ever had to say "No" to her. 

She's a beautiful, sweet dog with enough protection drive to guard the bedroom doorway when I go to bed. She gets between me and strangers in the house, but says nothing--her presence is enough. If I say it's ok, it's ok. She has never lifted a lip to anyone in any way. Kids can pull her tail, her face, and the amount of sh_t she takes from my puppy makes her a saint. When she's working, she sees and reacts to nothing except me, and that's just how she is. I trained her like I've trained all my other dogs in my life, on praise, being as she has little food drive but she wiggles for Good Girl. We all do proper Obedience training, and not at a Petsmart. I did Agility with my previous GSD, but with these two, we work around the farm mostly. 

This is Ellie.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I have been watching this thread with interest, but wasn't going to comment...but here's my 2 cents:

From my perspective, a KEY element that hasn't been really touched on in this thread is the fact that given "proper", or rather "improper" , conditioning nearly ANY puppy/dog will become a resource gaurder! And the corollary is equally valid: with proper conditioning most dogs can get over it, or better yet never develop it, as well. 

Mvp, if you're seriously considering an older dog, obviously you'd want to spend some time observing that dog in its current situation to gauge his temperment. But bringing him to a new location, then pestering him while eating or when he's got a toy in his mouth really tells you very little about the dog or his training, and puts both you and your family at risk! These dogs can do massive damage very very quickly, why tempt that?

An example: my dog went through some resource gaurding phases. Initially as a young puppy she tried frantically to resource guard me, from dogs mainly, but from people as well. With calm, consistent disuassion she got over it. With toys later on, at nearly the same age as your previous puppy, she decided that no dog could get within 20 ft of her with a toy without hearing (and seeing) her very forceful objection! She didn't attack them, but she did growl and snap and lunge at them to ward them off. And again with calm and consistent disuassion she got over it "mostly". And by that I mean we can play fetch with other dogs milling around and she'll drop the ball and watch it, but she no longer feels the need to lunge at or run off other dogs unless they actually try to grab her ball. And if I tell her I've got it, she trusts me to take care of it and will walk away. 

BUT, she is still and will always be very possessive. No adult can take a ball or toy out of her mouth, me included! And with a high enough value item, I have no doubt she'd bite even me if I tried! If I try to take a toy from her mouth she won't let go and will pull away, no growling, just absolute refusal to give it up forcefully. I love that about her! 

That being said, I consider my dog to be very stable, and I trust her explicitly when it comes to small children. She will and does let small children take things out of her mouth, or take her toy, or grab and hug her, and she shows no signs of stress whatsoever. Kid gene, perhaps. But I tend to lean toward believing it's genetics plus very careful and consistent conditioning. Being stable and trustworthy with children is a very important thing to me with any dog I have. If they aren't and/or I can't get them to be, they'd be gone! So I devoted a lot of time and attention to that when she was young! 

But testing an adult shepherd I don't know well by having anyone's children pet them while eating, or try to take a toy from them, is not something I'd ever do, nor would I allow it to happen with me present! If a trainer or a dog owner says it's okay, or worth a try, run!

I think resource gaurding and possesiveness are closely related. Most dogs with a healthy sense of possesiveness will be resource gaurders when their environment tells them it's warranted. It's up to you to ensure they don't ever perceive that behavior to be necessary (or tolerated!), not through confrontation, but by showing them consistently and patiently that it's unnecessary! 

As others have mentioned, any dog will bite given enough pressure! No such thing as an "idiot proof" dog or puppy...from any source or line! It is, IMHO, imperative to teach a puppy or dog impulse control - waiting to exit the house or car, waiting to eat or to get a treat or toy, etc., and rock solid obedience. Make it fun, make it a game, but make it a priority...

Best of luck to you with your next dog or puppy!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Mvp said:


> Thank you jonrob and others for your expert opinions. Again I find this group very professional , insightful and knowledgeable. I hope I did not cause any problems. I have sent YouTube videos to some of you. Maybe I don’t express my text messages very clearly but I would never put my children at risk meeting a new dog. The trainer was a foot away with me. It really didn’t go down like that. I’m not an expert but I have been around some pretty mean Czechoslovakian dogs in my protection group for the last eight months and I know how to respectfully handle them and be around them WISELY.. Again I was the one that diagnosed all these behaviors in my dog from puppyhood. I was just given bad advice by trainers on how to fix it and time went on To my detriment. Again, I’m in no hurry. I trust Lee dearly. I just wanted to see what a police washout dog look like and I don’t like it. I’m sure there are dogs out there in the middle. My dog had to much territorial aggression and thin nerves with dog aggression and a low threshold for reactivity with high possession. This dog I met was fearing every step healing in getting corrected. I don’t agree with that type of training all the time either. Also super high prey drive and no off switch. . I was very fair with the dog and he saw that I had no stress hormones being released and he knew my demeanor was good and fair and that’s why he really opened up to me after two one hour walks and playing two ball fetch for one hour in a playful greeting manner . think Jax hit it on the head- I need a lower drive low possession dog . I don’t want a protection dog anymore. Don’t see the need. But, basic protection training I might consider such as I did before with agitation and chase. I like German Shepherds,, oh well. I enjoy walking these beautiful dogs with obedience training, hiking, beach play and above all being a good family pet especially around children. I want a dog to go everywhere with me and my family . That’s what we were looking for and somehow we went down the wrong path. If he or she barks in the middle of the night when somethings off — wonderful !!


I was fumbling my post out on my phone while you posted.

I think you have a good head on your shoulders.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Tim, that’s interesting what you said about possessiveness and resource guarding. When I started using the flirt pole with my dog, nothing short of the jaws of life could get him to out. I tried everything. I couldn’t even pry his mouth open...it was like lock jaw. I figured I had to make him want to out. So if he didn’t out, I ended the game. He eventually figured out that if he outed, the game continued. But it’s hysterical how much he doesn’t want to give it up even now. I say OUT and he still gives three full bites on the object before he releases. Although he does consistently out every time. And he has never growled or tried to bite me when trying to get him to release. 

He brings his bones to me and chews them on my lap. He will release them to me no problem. He doesn’t resource guard his food from me. But, he does resource guard his food/toys from other dogs including his dog “sibling” by growling/air snapping. For the record, my dogs are separated when eating and my older dog is very respectful of another dogs space. 

If a dog resource guards from other dogs, will that translate to people at some point?


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

cvamoca, Ellie is gorgeous! Please don't apologize for the pic of such a beautiful dog. And she obviously has a splendid temperament.

I'm sorry she has pannus. Although it's not well known, tick diseases can cause pannus. It would be worth putting her on doxycycline to see what happens with the pannus, even if she tests negative for tick diseases. Like the ebola virus, tick bacteria and viruses that cause diseases can hide in the organs and not show up on blood tests. We had a lame GSD with pannus that was treated with doxycycline for a suspected tick disease. Even though he tested negative for tick diseases, both the pannus and the lameness vanished, although he had to remain on doxycycline the rest of his life.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

JonRob said:


> cvamoca, Ellie is gorgeous! Please don't apologize for the pic of such a beautiful dog. And she obviously has a splendid temperament.
> 
> I'm sorry she has pannus. Although it's not well known, tick diseases can cause pannus. It would be worth putting her on doxycycline to see what happens with the pannus, even if she tests negative for tick diseases. Like the ebola virus, tick bacteria and viruses that cause diseases can hide in the organs and not show up on blood tests. We had a lame GSD with pannus that was treated with doxycycline for a suspected tick disease. Even though he tested negative for tick diseases, both the pannus and the lameness vanished, although he had to remain on doxycycline the rest of his life.



Thanks Jonrob, and that's very interesting. Being as I'm taking Daisy in for her vaccine tomorrow, I'll talk to the new vet. But she's had it for 3 years now, the damage is pretty bad though she's on eye drops (Maxitrol) and tears for life. Maxitrol has Neomycin and a corticosteroid (Deximethasone) in it and it does help. We keep her out of the bright light in summer. I've always kept on top of doing Advantix, but if they still bite, they can transmit diseases, and Lyme is endemic in my area. Now they are pushing the Lyme disease vaccine on dog owners, but not on us humans! Which sucks, as I'm also likely a candidate, having been bitten several times every season the last few years.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

As someone just noted about protection training,, Even though my previous dog was young and had agitation and chase protection training, I was walking my dog and my neighbor was playing lacrosse with a large black stick and my dog started lighting up , not in a angry way , but a alertness demeanor. So I do believe protection training in a dog with the young children around can present theoretical scenarios or venues that may trigger a dog. If you remember earlier in my thread when I talked about my neighbor speaking loudly to me about a Wells Fargo bank teller that pissed him off and my dog looked at him and growled.. These were the type of scenarios that my dog went through during training. I learned my lesson and don’t see the need for this kind of training with kids around. . I was somehow persuaded to believe that this type of training produced a safer dog . I’m sure there are mixed opinions on that . But, I don’t see the need for it for my family Anytime soon.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Agendas huh. Lol. You do know that a puppy, even if its from the best lines Poland has to offer, does not meet significant security needs though, right? May get stolen right along with the TV.


Yeah, Remi was imported from Poland. He's a good boy, he's perfect for my wife and her goals, but when I asked her recently why she makes one of our females go outside with him for potty breaks, her reply "cause Remi needs a body guard" lol


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> As someone just noted about protection training,, Even though my previous dog was young and had agitation and chase protection training, I was walking my dog and my neighbor was playing lacrosse with a large black stick and my dog started lighting up , not in a angry way , but a alertness demeanor. So I do believe protection training in a dog with the young children around can present theoretical scenarios or venues that may trigger a dog. If you remember earlier in my thread when I talked about my neighbor speaking loudly to me about a Wells Fargo bank teller that pissed him off and my dog looked at him and growled.. These were the type of scenarios that my dog went through during training. I learned my lesson and don’t see the need for this kind of training with kids around. . I was somehow persuaded to believe that this type of training produced a safer dog . I’m sure there are mixed opinions on that . But, I don’t see the need for it for my family Anytime soon.


All excellent insights.

If you get a great family GSD, he will do his best to protect you and your family from a real threat without any protection training. And he won't bite the kids. Or their friends. Or neighbors playing games with sticks. Or grouchy neighbors.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

JonRob said:


> All excellent insights.
> 
> If you get a great family GSD, he will do his best to protect you and your family from a real threat without any protection training. And he won't bite the kids. Or their friends. Or neighbors playing games with sticks. Or grouchy neighbors.


I would never put that in writing as it can 'bite' you in court. Seems like a strange statement for a trainer.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

JonRob said:


> If you get a great family GSD, he will do his best to protect you and your family from a real threat without any protection training. And he won't bite the kids. Or their friends. Or neighbors playing games with sticks. Or grouchy neighbors.


And we’re back to this...lol. Most dogs won’t protect you without proper training. That is dangerous advice you’re giving that isn’t rooted in fact. People may depend on the dog only to be disappointed. The dog should buy you time to get a weapon or make a phone call. However, I wouldn’t count on an untrained dog for protection. 

Didn’t they do a 20/20 episode on this very subject? I loved the stranger that ordered the Rottweiler back to his crate and the dog went. lol


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Unfortunately - there area HUGE misconceptions that dogs will automatically "protect" people.....and that protection training makes dogs dangerous. 

The whole point of the development of schutzhund (IPO/IPG) is to test the dog for the ability to protect, to track, to be trainable....now it is more a sport, and the training has been geared for competition. The training is to demonstrate the ability and qualities that came through the genetics. Training in protection via sport also teaches the dog to be controllable and still be able to discern when a bite is appropriate and when it is not.

A dog bred without any attention to these qualities - ie "pet breeding" gives you dogs with huge unknowns in the temperament, in bidability, in discernment, in courage. Even in breeding of titled dogs, the trend is "sport dogs"....dogs fixated by prey drive on equipment and not on the "bad guy"....dogs who would run off with a sleeve while the owner was pummeled by the helper. I have seen many many many many show line dogs in training. I have seen even more working line dogs.....the trend is not breeding protective dogs or balanced dogs. I met a judge/handler/breeders with a VERY well known dog who has been used for many breedings who laughed about the dog putting them in the hospital 3 times...showing me scars!!! 

Many dogs will initially APPEAR to be protective - but under pressure will not follow through. Finding that balance, that dog whose temperament is as described in the standard, has fallen into the abyss in favor of show winnings and extreme prey/prey aggression animals that are flashy on the field. The aggression genetics are more random and not in balance or from dogs who are too independent and prone to giving you the proverbial finger. You certainly will NOT get this from someone breeding random lines for color, coat length, big heads etc etc - those breedings are genetic lottery tickets.....things will fall into place now and then - someone wins the lottery eventually right!? 

I would never feel confident in getting an ideal temperament from a source that is a commercial operation whose focus is for appearance and lack of breed standard temperament. I wonder if the one touted breeder realizes they are mixing working and show lines?

Lee


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> Unfortunately - there area HUGE misconceptions that dogs will automatically "protect" people.....and that protection training makes dogs dangerous.
> 
> The whole point of the development of schutzhund (IPO/IPG) is to test the dog for the ability to protect, to track, to be trainable....now it is more a sport, and the training has been geared for competition. The training is to demonstrate the ability and qualities that came through the genetics. Training in protection via sport also teaches the dog to be controllable and still be able to discern when a bite is appropriate and when it is not.
> 
> ...


I have a thought too--- about whether protection training makes a dog safer, more dangerous, or neither:

dog training is completely unregulated. Literally anyone can say they are a dog trainer and charge for it with absolutely no standards. I would be willing to bet that a lot of the trainers out there offering "protection training" are just as much of a crapshoot as any other type of trainer as far as how valid, of what quality, length, their experience is. how well they read dogs and know how to respond. Etc.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> Unfortunately - there area HUGE misconceptions that dogs will automatically "protect" people.....and that protection training makes dogs dangerous.
> 
> The whole point of the development of schutzhund (IPO/IPG) is to test the dog for the ability to protect, to track, to be trainable....now it is more a sport, and the training has been geared for competition. The training is to demonstrate the ability and qualities that came through the genetics. Training in protection via sport also teaches the dog to be controllable and still be able to discern when a bite is appropriate and when it is not.
> 
> ...


Remember this discussion?

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/417450-prey-monkeys.html


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have a thought too--- about whether protection training makes a dog safer, more dangerous, or neither:
> 
> dog training is completely unregulated. Literally anyone can say they are a dog trainer and charge for it with absolutely no standards. I would be willing to bet that a lot of the trainers out there offering "protection training" are just as much of a crapshoot as any other type of trainer as far as how valid, of what quality, length, their experience is. how well they read dogs and know how to respond. Etc.


Reading dogs is an innate talent. Some helpers are going thru the motion because that's what they learned. These are the helpers I try to avoid, or at least never go back to. They don't really understand why they are doing something.

A helper that can read the dog, the dog's intention and tap into the dog's individual drives is priceless. They train with their instincts based on the moment.

My boy is higher prey and the fight needs to be "real" in order to bring out the aggression. It's in there. Put the pressure on and he meets it. But working a dog in aggression creates a lot of stress on the dog. It's why they are mostly trained in prey. Why do that when prey makes it easier? Why breed aggression when you work them in prey? See the circle? It's how we ended up with prey monkeys.

Now my little one. She has super high possession. Super high prey but I've already seen her switch to aggression. The helpers that work her will need to be able to balance that prey and aggression in her. 

Did that help your question?


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

IllinoisNative said:


> Most dogs won’t protect you without proper training.


That has not been my experience or my girlfriend's experience. None of our dogs have had any protection training. But whenever one of us has faced a real threat and one of our dogs was present, the dog protected us, and, in one case, a total stranger. And these dogs (mostly GSDs) were totally safe with kids and nice strangers. That is my definition of a great family GSD. I think it's sad that so many people have no experience with this type of GSD. They are such a joy.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> IllinoisNative said:
> 
> 
> > Most dogs won’t protect you without proper training.
> ...


I'm glad you guys are safe and sound thanks to your dogs. How did your dog protect you? You may have a different definition of protection than some are speaking of. 

Many dogs will put on a great display of ferocity and anger in attempt to get the threat to flee.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

The protection dogs I worked and trained with would have done poorly in sport. I never understood sending a "protection dog" away. I still don't and don't want to. The dogs I worked could not be sent, lured or threatened away from the handlers. If an assailant moved away the dog would let go because it's job was to protect and it cannot do that if it's running away from you. They also seldom barked their fool heads off, it really serves no purpose and confident dogs don't bark like idiots.
Obedience was first, rock solid obedience long before the dogs were taught anything else. I don't understand how a nine month old puppy is working on protection training, I get that it's a thing now but I don't like it and never will. There are behaviors that are shaped in puppies and things that go into raising a secure and confidant dog but I don't believe in making immature puppies perform big dog jobs.
It seems strange to be to be provoking prey drive or aggression in a pup. It hasn't the maturity or foundation to cope.
I would never condone children provoking a dog, and I certainly believe that parents need to supervise but to say that no dog is to be trusted with children seems wrong and sad. 
The family dog should be a joy and a friend to all the family. I don't think the problem is with protection training, I think the problem is with the definition of protection training. How is it a protection dog if it needs to be locked up or left behind?
The discernment is key as Lee said, because a dog that can discern a threat is no issue in a family setting. If the obedience has been taken care of then there will be no issues.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

IllinoisNative said:


> Tim, that’s interesting what you said about possessiveness and resource guarding. When I started using the flirt pole with my dog, nothing short of the jaws of life could get him to out. I tried everything. I couldn’t even pry his mouth open...it was like lock jaw. I figured I had to make him want to out. So if he didn’t out, I ended the game. He eventually figured out that if he outed, the game continued. But it’s hysterical how much he doesn’t want to give it up even now. I say OUT and he still gives three full bites on the object before he releases. Although he does consistently out every time. And he has never growled or tried to bite me when trying to get him to release.
> 
> He brings his bones to me and chews them on my lap. He will release them to me no problem. He doesn’t resource guard his food from me. But, he does resource guard his food/toys from other dogs including his dog “sibling” by growling/air snapping. For the record, my dogs are separated when eating and my older dog is very respectful of another dogs space.
> 
> *If a dog resource guards from other dogs, will that translate to people at some point?*


My dog is much the same, but the mental image created by your "jaws of life" comment gave me a good laugh! Possesiveness is a desirable trait, depending on what you want to do with your dog. I love it, but I'm sure some folks might find it frustrating. 

As a puppy I made a HUGE game of havine my dog bring the ball or toy, dropping it and then backing up a few feet and sitting before I would grab and throw it again. It was all very animated, high energy, and fun! And, of course it's an incremental process. And her out is awesome now. But you still can't take it from her forcibly LOL! If I grab for her or the object it becomes an entirely different game of keepaway or tug...and she always wins!

To answer the question I bolded above though, in my experience no. Many dogs will justifiably guard their things of value from other dogs, but not ever from a human being. 

That being said, my point was that nearly ANY dog from any source or lineage can be intentionally, or unintentionally, taught or conditioned to resource guard from humans. Most can also be taught to understand that it's unnecessary and will stop. 

Most dogs can learn that children are off limits as well, but that takes work and is not for everyone. If a dog threatens my child once, I might choose to teach him a better way to behave, provided no actual injury occurred. I've done it with many dogs and puppies. BUT, I also really liked the quote another poster said earlier as well, about a dog showing so much as a lip wrinkle at a child not seeing another sunrise, or something to that effect. Seems harsh, but I can't help but wonder if a zero tolerance policy like that, enforced strictly for several generations, might change things for the better...

But I see that I've deviated from the most recent topic under discussion ?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> It seems strange to be to be provoking prey drive or aggression in a pup. It hasn't the maturity or foundation to cope.
> .


This sooo much. Faren was put on a helper to check her grip. She was put on another time to teach her to bark. She has both. Put her up and let her grow.

Prey is easy. It's in them. Just chase and it's a game. But she's almost a year old and I'll just now really start training with her. Seger was not ready when he started. It was an uphill from there for a very long time.

I see helpers putting young dogs into aggression, or at least they think it's aggression that they're doing, and it only causes conflict.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@Whiteshepherds



> You sure about that?
> The breed standard doesn't give priority to the guard dog over the service dog, the protection dog over the companion dog. If a guide dog isn't suitable for K-9 work and you consider it dumbed down, is a K-9 that's not suitable as a companion considered too extreme per the standard?
> 
> Fidelco Guide Dogs use GSD's. They breed per the standard. Not every Fidelco puppy will be suitable as a guide dog. Dogs that wash out of the program have found themselves moving on as family dogs, search and rescue dog, K-9's etc. depending on temperament etc. Isn't that what we want to see from the breed...versatility rather than extremes geared towards any one trait?


I am absolutely sure about that. Fidelco breeds their own German Shepherds and they even pride themselves in having bred a breed within a breed.

_"The Fidelco German Shepherd Dog

We describe them as "a breed within a breed." The Fidelco German Shepherd was created from Bavarian stock. It is an outstanding and exclusive product of selective breeding from strong working lines and has evolved to be truly a breed within a breed. Our dogs possess the characteristics of the ideal working guide; intelligence, temperament, stamina and stability. 

They are responsible for our clients’ safety at all times. This formidable task requires us to have an uncompromising focus on the quality of the breed and extensive service training, which are the hallmarks of the Fidelco Shepherd, together with thoughtful and deliberate matching and placement - Partners in Exceptional."_

Um...not sure why you are addressing me stating that the breed standard did not prioritize one venue over another. I never said that it did. I have said throughout the thread that the GSD is a versatile breed, jack of all trades, master of none. Perhaps you shoot the wrong messenger?

I never said: "If a guide dog isn't suitable for K-9 work and you consider it _dumbed down_". I said: *"Guide dogs are specifically bred for traits that are desirable for their work".* 

My comment under fire was: *"If someone doesn't want, or can't handle, expected breed behavior, the solution is not to start breeding dumbed down dogs that no longer fit the breed criteria but to look for an appropriate breed that does suit one's lifestyle."* JonRob contrived that I said guide dogs are dumbed down. It never happened, not in this thread or in any other.

Are you sure that Fidelco breeds to the breed standard? From their own words above that I copied and pasted from their site, Fidelco seems to beg to differ with your statement. 

Once again, regarding versatility, you are only reiterating MY comments about the German Shepherd's diversity. I don't know what your point is as it seems that you are making your statement as if in disagreement. I view it that we are saying the same thing.

To further substantiate, Fodder also caught JonRob's contrived drama, except she addressed the appropriate person: 

{Quote:
Originally Posted by JonRob View Post
"Are GSD guide dogs dumbed down? I don't think so."}

Fodder: "dumbed down? no, watered down, absolutely.... currently being phased out of many programs? yep

present day guide dogs of any breed aren’t what they were in the 40’s 50’s 60’s etc. the guide dog user has changed quite a bit too, as have training techniques and our society/culture.

different story for a different time. bottom line, prey drive, aggression... no room for that in the GD world, those dogs simply don’t make the cut. so are certain traits bred out... yes they are."

Please, next time double check who said what before you target somebody in disagreement and make sure who said what. I stand by what I say and refuse to defend myself from the contrived words of others.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I really wish people wouldn’t press GSD’s as a great family dog that will naturally protect you, your family, and your home. Yes, they are notoriously territorial, but that is generally relayed with frenzied barking, trying to get the threat to go away. If the threat comes closer, or challenges the dog, most run away while still doing an intermediate bark now and then.

If someone asks you “why did you choose a German Shepherd.” And your answer is “for protection” make sure you work with a certified and responsibly recommended trainer of protection dogs, and plan to spend a lot of time and money on the training. If you can’t do that, you have a pet that more than likely will not protect you and/or your family. What’s more, if you let the breeder know the dog will be trained in PP, you’re going to get more dog than what the typical animal owner is expecting. 
@JonRob, I have to disagree again. Most GSD’s that are trained in obedience for a family home setting likely will not ward off an attack, perceived or otherwise. Sure, you may get a one in a million chance of that, but I do not think it is fair to publicly announce that companion/pet GSD’s are going to protect family and home with their lives. 

OP, you are getting a lot of conflicting information. Some good, some I would run from. I’ll shoot you a PM. But the best advice I can give is to give yourself and your family time to reset, and regain confidence in yourself before bringing anymore dogs into your home.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

In the early 90's I had a beautiful GSD male, great family dog. Looking back he must have been a WL, based on his looks and temperament but I was clueless at the time. I did get him when I met someone who had an older sibling from him and I liked everything about that dog. He was great with our kids but I was not a trainer at all but he did well. One day we came home and he was outside, running up to us. The house was burglarized but he and our little mutt were unharmed. Police came and saw the GSD and told me to get that dog PP trained by a certain trainer. So we did per his recommendation. After he came home after 6 weeks, he bit a neighbor's child on the head and drew blood. There were 6 children next door and he had set his eyes on them as if they were prey. No trainer wanted to take him on (one told me that he was like a loaded gun) and I had him put down because of liability as a law suit was going to be in the works if I didn't. He had learned to bite but I think it confused the **** out of him. 
This has haunted me till this day. I so failed that dog. I wish I could turn back time now I know better but I can't. I hope to meet him again at the Bridge, if there is one, when I get there so I can make it right to him. Never, ever will I have a dog PP trained. Deja doesn't need to learn to bite. She is always with me, that's all that matters, it is plenty. 
So there, that' s my PP story. Hope the OP will read it.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Yes wolfy dog, I know. It’s a bad feeling. And I always respect you for sharing that story


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## Alonza (Jul 29, 2019)

Hi guys Im Lon and I am new guy But I am not new to raising german shepherds.
Ive helped law enforcement people and many others,
First of all Do not train using toys for reward.
These are German Shepherds ,the toys will focus the dogs attention to the toy.
And not you.
food is okay and will still keep the dogs focus on you.
Do not ever talk baby talk your GS.
Always talk sternly authoratively and if they are not focusing on you you kneel down in front of them grabbing fur on neck 
with both hands and look them in eyes and tell them what you want.
Treat and talk to them as your equal.your best freind.
You want the GS to work to please you so scratch them behind ears and ruff them up praising them.
If their bad you Brow beat them You bad bad dog and hurt their feelings.
You are not the dog wisperer guy is a idiot My dog would mop the floor with him in the first minute.
If you beat up or pin your dog to show them whos boss they will let intruder do same.
Do not let any body feed your dog but you and imediate family.
You people with food dish problems and first time trainers Your family should be intamit with the dogs mouth.
You grab a big can of kalcan a chair and a big table spoon Put the chair on one side of the room .
take the dog to other Even if trained you teach them to sit stay and lay down tapping on the floor in front of them.
reward them each time with a spoon full of food stuck in the spoon so they have to work for it.
Do it again but put a glob in your pawm of hand and close fingers letting one finger at a time out of way 
so they realy have to work for it.
and you stick your hand in dogs mouth and touch his tongue grab his nose and upper teeth playing with them.
and you grab your kids youngest to oldest babies included wipe some food in their palm and just let the dog clean it up.
And I challenge my dogs at the food dish LOL And my three sons as babies have challenged them at food dish .
and its comical Even with the dog telling them to go away growling and barking ,my kids reach in their mouth and start playing with dog . 
somtimes carrying kid off and running back to eat food LOL


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Not speaking directly to you MVP, this is more of my personal rant about what I've seen IRL and elsewhere. 

I'm always puzzled by people who say they _want _PP dogs but apparently don't have a clue what's involved in selecting/training/maintaining that sort of dog. I often wonder if they understand/appreciate what is (or should be) involved in raising/training even a strictly companion animal, much less a working dog bred for aggression. Couple that with the (men's?) desire for a BA dog (e.g., Rotts, GSDs, Cane Corsos and the breed-that-shall-not-be-named) as well as the mistaken belief that "my dog will protect me" and you have serious problem in the making, I believe. 

Then too, I wonder how many folks have actually experienced their companion becoming truly aggressive in response to a _real _threat? I don't mean agitated barking or fence charging here, but_ real aggression_ directed at making the threat stop. Without training and nothing but sheer instinct? I grew up with GSDs, working farm dogs that my grandfather kept and occasionally bred. (We'd call him a BYB now). I've only experienced ONE dog 'turning on' like that and _without any prior training at all_. It was an eye-opening and unnerving experience, though I was and remain grateful. This wasn't a GSD, by the way. It was a 160 pd IW, who I'd always thought was a genetic throwback anyway. 

I have mad respect for trainers who put in the years to acquire the understanding and skills to produce, work with and maintain such dogs. Those trainers aren't exactly thick on the ground. I also have respect for owners who acquire many of those same skills, over years, by training their dogs for sport (e.g., IPO or whatever it's called now). I've chosen a different path with my animals, but I admire what others have _mindfully _chosen to do with theirs. It takes hard work and commitment; _not _ simple wish fulfillment. 

Rant over.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fidelco isn't what it used to be. Just sayin' from the inside scoop.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@Aly, just what criteria must be met to knowingly say that a dog truly met the threat? Honest question. Everyone says that but what does it really mean. How can others gage their own experiences as to whether their dogs did or not IRL? 

I am not targeting you, but since you mentioned it, I would be interested in your and other people's viewpoints.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I had a police trained dog he was a dog that had a high threshold he never did over react. At the time we had no kids - we had babies in his senior arthritic years. He was dog that liked his own space. A great strong serious dog. He will always be one of the greats. 

I never bothered anyone of my dogs with their food. So the message was clear to them we did not touch them or their food when they ate. Clearly a non threat. If anything removed - toy from them they get major high prizes food in its place since pups. Every time a mouth has to be opened a reward placed inside. I do not feed high prized bones and when I did it was where they can not be disturbed at all. The only dog that I remember growled with their food was a poodle we rescued in the streets - Freddy- growing up he was a snarling monster every time we walked by. He was never bothered when he ate and he was never given toys or bones. He was small so was of lesser danger but it never developed into a real issue as the behavior was never practiced. 

My female watches over my kids like they are her flock when out. She is very biddeable. 

My mAle now has strong protective instincts - he was not protection trained and his skills not sharpened but i am happy with his instincts alone. Very forward type dog. He is fabulous with the kids. My heart dog. He is a bit thick headed I learned a lot with him. He is will be 5 soon and really matured so nice. 

stability, clear headed and a high threshold Are important qualities in a dog in a family who want a protective dog in my opinion. Biddeability will make the dog easier to proof training off leash with distractions.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Aly, just what criteria must be met to knowingly say that a dog truly met the threat? Honest question. Everyone says that but what does it really mean. How can others gage their own experiences as to whether their dogs did or not IRL?
> 
> I am not targeting you, but since you mentioned it, I would be interested in your and other people's viewpoints.


How I look at it is, if the dog did anything to directly change the mind of someone that was threatening in some way, that technically qualifies. In that instance. Where I disagree is when people take something simple like that and insist that dog would lay down their life for me or that they would always in any situation act to protect.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> How I look at it is, if the dog did anything to directly change the mind of someone that was threatening in some way, that technically qualifies. In that instance. Where I disagree is when people take something simple like that and insist that dog would lay down their life for me or that they would always in any situation act to protect.


Good points Steve. I am wondering if you can actually define IRL protection without defining what a threat is. I would think one is contingent on the other and would / could result in different outcomes.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp, the hard part of being as smart and conscientious as you are is that you can get whipsawed back and forth with conflicting advice. I think you should have a lot of confidence in your own judgment. Because you look at things scientifically and want to do the right thing, you have learned a great deal from your experience. These are the hallmarks of a true professional. We all have a lot to learn at every stage of our lives, but you are well on your way to becoming an expert yourself.

When evaluating advice, always test it against your own experience. If it doesn't mesh, the advice may not necessarily be wrong, just aimed at a totally different type of GSD than you want and therefore not applicable to your situation. Advice based on the idea that great family GSDs should not be bred because they ruin the breed will generally not be useful to you, just as advice based on the idea that military GSDs should not be bred because they ruin the breed will not generally not be useful to someone who is asking about a military GSD.

The reason the GSD has become the most popular--and IMHO the best--breed in the world is because this breed has within it different lines that can do so many things so well--guide dog, other service dog, great family dog, therapy dog, military dog, police dog. It is not just a "protection" breed.

As an aside, for those folks who think disabled folks should not "ruin" the GSD breed by encouraging the breeding of GSDs for service dog work: My girlfriend and I are both physically disabled, and our service dogs have always been GSDs, which we have trained ourselves. We think that the fact that we are disabled does not mean that we should not be allowed to have the best as service dogs. In addition, the presence of a service dog that is a GSD discourages predators who attack disabled people. Disabled folks with Golden Retrievers or Labradors as service dogs are much more vulnerable to attack. Our best friends are named Smith and Wesson, but we can't take them everywhere.

This really is my last post on this for a while, unless Mvp wants to hear something on this forum from me. (He knows he is always welcome to contact me directly.) At my age, I learned a long time ago the futility of trying to convince people who don't want to be convinced. And I am not so immature that I think I need to prove myself to a strangers on an internet forum. I have proven myself--again and again--to the dogs and my dog training clients. That is what truly matters.

It's a beautiful sunny cool day! Time to train the dogs . . .


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Aly, just what criteria must be met to knowingly say that a dog truly met the threat? Honest question. Everyone says that but what does it really mean. How can others gage their own experiences as to whether their dogs did or not IRL?
> 
> I am not targeting you, but since you mentioned it, I would be interested in your and other people's viewpoints.


The very best example that I can think of is Voodoo Lambs story of Mako when he was just ten months or thereabouts. I tried to find her post of it but couldn’t. I’m sure some members remember it. 

Mako had it all: clear headed, forward appropriate aggression with the heart and courage to latch on and stay in the fight while the guy was fighting back. Then showed appropriate off switch and greeted the police officer befitting a young non aggressive pup of his own accord and without needing a verbal que. There was more detail but kept it short for just the key points.

My own has never been in a situation that called for true protection but I have seen his body and facial expression shift during scenarios that suggest there may be something there along with forward defense and a modicum of suspicion. 

Whenever I wonder about the question of would he/could he, I make certain I take off the Proverbial rose colored glasses before I contemplate. Also I think of Mako’s story as a kind of guide example of clear headed untrained instinct/genetic protection. 

I do keep us out of situations areas that would be conducive to needing protection.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@Heartandsoul

I remember that. She did work him in bitework. I think the question centers around regardless of breeding, will a GSD protect without training. However, that was an excellent example of a real life threat.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Mako ~ 

https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...13-my-dog-attacked-someone-advice-please.html


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Aly, just what criteria must be met to knowingly say that a dog truly met the threat? Honest question. Everyone says that but what does it really mean. How can others gage their own experiences as to whether their dogs did or not IRL?
> 
> I am not targeting you, but since you mentioned it, I would be interested in your and other people's viewpoints.


I don't feel targeted, that's a fair and interesting question. Mulling it over, I'd say there are different factors at play --- setting aside the question of training the right dog for it, which I've never done. That said, I firmly believe that the dog's character and 'genetics' play a role. 

So (still mulling), I think a lot of it has to do with the context (e.g., home vs. elsewhere), the threat's behavior (suspicious vs. threatening, attacking), and the dog's overall ability to distinguish between non threats (e.g., mail carriers) and what I'm calling real threats (e.g., attempted assaults, break-ins). At the lowest level, I mean that the dog chooses to do something deliberate and aggressive (e.g., barking while advancing on the threat) _to stop the threat_. At higher levels, I mean that the dog would choose to attack the threat. 

I've posted about this before, so I'll just summarize to illustrate what I mean. Same female dog, two different men, both behaving extremely aggressively towards me. One tried to grab me in the barn, at night, by coming into the stall where I was checking my horse --- over my loud objections. She came roaring in from an attached paddock, through the stall, hit him in the chest and pinned him to the barn aisle wall by the throat until I pulled her off. The second one tried to grab me off the street, late one night, while I was walking the same dog. (We were going past a wooded area, so I think he didn't see her). When I started yelling, she came roaring, hit him in the chest, knocking him to the ground where she held him, by the throat, until I gathered my wits and got her off. 

I never trained her to do anything remotely like this. (I know enough to know that I don't know how to do that, even if I wanted to). While I was grateful for her intervention it was also quite surprising and more than a little unnerving. I didn't know she had it in her; but, she did. This wasn't fear based aggression either. She was a supremely confident (even dominant) and discerning girl who simply didn't back down. I could and did trust her to behave appropriately with all sorts of children and adults, in a wide variety of circumstances. Watchful, but until these incidents, the most she'd done was put herself between me and someone whom she viewed as suspicious. But, when the circumstances warranted it, she could and did become aggressive and made the _real _threats stop.

Hope this helps.

ETA. Never had a dog, including my grandfather's hard GSDs do anything remotely like that.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Heartandsoul
> 
> I remember that. She did work him in bitework. I think the question centers around regardless of breeding, will a GSD protect without training. However, that was an excellent example of a real life threat.


I didn’t realize or maybe I just forgot that. This has become a really good and interesting thread. The question of genetically predisposed to appropriate behavior be it herding, protection, etc is fascinating and I love just watching and learning my own boy and challenging myself to read him correctly. Actually I do that when I watch other dogs also. I’ve gotten kind of good at it from years of reading threads like this.

Edit: I just checked Makos link she did not have any bitework training on him at the time but had been wondering about his ability do to his sweet nature. Also going to add Aly’s to the memory box. Impressive self discipline of hers not to bite down, extremely telling of temperament and clear head.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@Aly, just looking for clarification, when you said she had him by the throat, do you mean grabbed him with her teeth or grabbed his shirt collar? Just looking to be specific so we can all be on the same page.

Here are two incidents that come to my mind. One is my childhood German Shepherd buddy that would jump on someone and bark in their face if he felt I was threatened but I knew then and still believe today that if a bad guy, and not some kids clowning around had called his bluff, he would have run. 

Then there was the time I was walking a young dog behind a shopping mall. He was off leash and about 25 ft ahead of me. Someone in a truck going at a fairly high rate of speed, pulled up and came to a quick stop about 20 ft to my side. I could see his happy face as he slammed it into park asking if he could see my dog and jumped out of the vehicle. Now this all happened in a few seconds. As I was trying to say that it wasn't a good idea he was out and rapidly advanced a couple of steps towards my dog. He wasn't a very big fellow, probably 5' 3", and @135#. Before I could do anything, my dog was there, jumped up, wrapped his front legs around him and shoved his muzzle into the man's throat. They held that position for a second and it is burned into my memory for ever. I recalled my dog and he obeyed. The man ran to his truck and as he jumped in he mumbled forget it. Lol! Funny thing is years later, I don't know if he would protect me but I have learned that he isn't going to take any guff from anyone that thinks they are going to fool with him or his home territory.

Neither of these experiences were real life threats but I thought they were interesting based on scenarios, types of dogs, and the individual dog's behavior.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Alonza said:


> Hi guys Im Lon and I am new guy But I am not new to raising german shepherds.
> Ive helped law enforcement people and many others,
> First of all Do not train using toys for reward.
> These are German Shepherds ,the toys will focus the dogs attention to the toy.
> ...


Jesus help us all. Do not listen to the garbage listed above, unless you’re in to getting your face bit, and having your child bit. I’ve never heard worse advice, and that’s saying A LOT.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Aly, just looking for clarification, when you said she had him by the throat, do you mean grabbed him with her teeth or grabbed his shirt collar? Just looking to be specific so we can all be on the same page....
> Neither of these experiences were real life threats but I thought they were interesting based on scenarios, types of dogs, and the individual dog's behavior.


Mind you, both incidents happened very fast so I couldn't see all of it. But, when I approached, she'd _widened_ her jaws and wrapped them around their (two different guys, remember) respective _throats_. And held them like that. Lots of bruising, but no blood that I could see. Of course, neither man struggled while she was holding them, though both were yelling quite a bit. (Neighbors heard the second incident and came out). She didn't touch their clothing, although the second guy (the one she held on the ground) clearly needed new trousers by the time the police arrived...


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Heartandsoul said:


> Edit: I just checked Makos link she did not have any bitework training on him at the time but had been wondering about his ability do to his sweet nature. Also going to add Aly’s to the memory box. Impressive self discipline of hers not to bite down, extremely telling of temperament and clear head.


Yes, she was something else. I got her as a rising yearling when the original owners no longer wanted to deal with what they described as her "obstinate, out of control" behavior and frantically returned her to the breeder. I _never _found her to be remotely obstinate or out of control. Ever. She did demand clarity, fairness, and respect. I learned so much from that girl; mostly that I didn't know nearly as much about dogs and their character/behavior as I thought I did. She left a huge whole in my heart when she died.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Aly,
> ...
> Neither of these experiences were real life threats but I thought they were interesting based on scenarios, types of dogs, and the individual dog's behavior.


Yes, I agree that they're both interesting scenarios, but I'm not sure that neither was a real threat --- at least to dogs and it's _their _perception that matters, I believe. In the second instance with the stranger, nothing happened so it's understandable that you don't view it as real threat now. But, I would suggest that the second incident was a real threat despite the 'good' outcome. I think that it's a matter of the _degree _of perceived threat (e.g., known vs. unknown individual, your reaction) --- again _to the dog_. It's so interesting thinking about how dogs understand things and people, and how/why they respond as they do --- with or without formal training.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Also remember that when it comes down to it, dogs still retain some survival instincts. They are unlikely to take on something they percieve could seriously injure them. Even a good dog with real protection can be chased away by a very dog savvy individual. Seen it. Done it. 

Where being able to activate a dog on command, rather than having the dog go by himself, is so important. Along with what Sabi said about never 'sending' a personal protection dog away from your side. There should be an 'object guard' type circle around the handler. None of this stuff is easy to teach. 

Aly, sounds like a very cool dog!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Aly awesome job very much a hero! A great dog. So glad she was with you and kept you safe. Growing up my friends dog, mostly shepherd with some lab and saved us from deep dark trouble a few times. No training. She looked very much like the second rin tin tin. I remember she was a female but would lift her leg when she would pee. It was the 80’s were young kids often roamed the neighborhood fun times but and also was quite the jungle. I also had my dog he to had some shepherd in him. He was a lot of hot when it came down to it he would hide behind me or take off. They were both named Teddy. Both different but great dogs. My friends dog saved her home from being burglarized by attacking the person trying to crawl through the window and she did not back down when a bunch of teenagers try to chase her and also threw things at her. Some dogs like the trouble. She was a friendly dog to she had no behavioral issues. No doubt skills and confidence can be strengthened through training. I will always be In the boat you do never know what your dog will do just -you may have an idea. Hopefully no one will have to find out for real.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Just curious , what steps or tips to prevent resource guarding with a new young puppy ?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mvp said:


> Just curious , what steps or tips to prevent resource guarding with a new young puppy ?


I never pick a fight with a puppy. I trade toys. I never mess with them while they are eating. They get fed in their crate where nobody can bother them. I teach them the value of bringing one item back to me so they can have another. 

My 1 yr old has a ton of possession. In a home where someone wanted to fight about it, it would be a disaster. So we've played 2 ball, I trade her food for an item that I want, and she's learning that Out often gets her the ball back to either chase or tug. Sometimes I just hold her and pet her while she has the ball so she doesn't feel she needs to run away to keep it or struggle as soon as I touch her thinking she has to give it up.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Thx Jax


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Mvp said:


> Just curious , what steps or tips to prevent resource guarding with a new young puppy ?


If you have to take steps to prevent resource guarding, you have gotten a puppy with the wrong genetics to be a good family dog. Run away as fast as you can from any puppy that requires being handled with kid gloves like this.

With the puppies I've had, I cheerfully mess with their food (but never food deprive them), playfully take their toys and give them back, and gently bump into them. I scatter kibbles on the floor so the puppy and other good-natured dogs can race around together and gobble them up. They've all been delighted with this. And they learn that they lose nothing by sharing.

But I select puppies who think friends are far more important than toys or food.

Someone recently posted about a lovely one-year-old GSD she got that appears to have a wonderful temperament that would make her ideally suited as a family dog. The response from some folks here was to make her disappointed in her fabulous dog because the dog does not have prick ears. Some priorities, eh? You can see that thread here:

https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...ughts-akc-registered-1yr-old-floppy-ears.html


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> Mvp said:
> 
> 
> > Just curious , what steps or tips to prevent resource guarding with a new young puppy ?
> ...


You briefly described the steps you take to prevent resource guarding in your second paragraph. I would add that you probably work on a relationship with your dog that makes resource guarding much less likely. I believe that is the key. It's complicated to explain how to foster that kind of trust in a dog to someone who has never experienced it.

It seems that you don't care for most of the people or posts on this forum. Why do you continue to choose to participate? I'm honestly wondering. I'm in no way suggesting that you shouldn't. Just wondering why you do.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

All of my dogs are very possessive. They came out of the box like that. I have no problem whatsoever with them resource guarding anything with me. I don't really take any steps to prevent resource guarding but I do take steps not to create it.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I never found it unusual or uncommon for a new pup to resource guard. They just came from a litter, often fed from the same dish, and practiced it then to make sure they got their share. It’s an easy habit to break in a puppy. Once they realize they don’t have to guard to get their share, it often corrects its own behavior. A quick “augt” or finger snap(with a verbal no) is all that was needed for new pups. Of course older dogs will often need more than that, but to say any puppy that resource guards has bad genetics is really jumping the gun IMO (which we all know isn’t worth a breath on this forum now).


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I think it's helpful to remember that_ this is no longer a puppy_. It's now an adolescent. An adolescent that may have arrived with resource guarding issues, but unfortunately and despite the best intentioned efforts of the OP, it's practiced the behavior for some time and seems to be generalizing. I wouldn't take the same approach with a puppy that I would with an adolescent, but I'm interested to hear how others might address the issue --- _with an adolescent._


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think the problem is the term, resource guard. If you want to train a dog with anything other then straight compulsion you need something to motivate them. If you can get the results you want with praise, thats fine. If you really want to find new ways to have more fun with your training, something the dog wants is whats called a motivator to trainers out in the real world. Its a lot easier then people who haven't tried want to imply. Not fighting with them like Jax mentioned isn't really that difficult, don't listen to the stubborn naysayers you'll be deluged with, online. 

The more they want something, the motivator, the easier and more fun it can be. Praise for the right behavior in play can create more value for the praise too. There's a lot you do if you tune out people telling you, you can't,, because they themselves, can't.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JonRob said:


> If you have to take steps to prevent resource guarding, you have gotten a puppy with the wrong genetics to be a good family dog. Run away as fast as you can from any puppy that requires being handled with kid gloves like this.


:thinking: I routinely raise my puppies to prevent resource guarding. Any foundation work I can do with a young puppy that decreases the likelihood of future issues later, I do. Does that mean they don't have the genetics to be a good family dog? Of course not. It means I don't know if they have those tendencies until/unless they're actually exhibiting them. So, to be proactive, I make sure it never gets that far by building a relationship of trust. 

Most of mine probably would have been perfectly fine without a lot of the stuff I do routinely, but not all. If I were a experienced professional I might be able to figure out which were which in advance, but I still don't think any of it was a waste of time and effort, even with those that didn't technically _need_ it. 



> With the puppies I've had, I cheerfully *mess with their food* (but never food deprive them), playfully *take their toys* and give them back, and gently bump into them. I scatter kibbles on the floor so the puppy and other good-natured dogs can race around together and gobble them up. They've all been delighted with this. And they learn that they lose nothing by sharing.


With the right dog, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. As you said, it's worked for you. But with the wrong dog you could actually create problems that wouldn't have otherwise cropped up, and many people have done exactly that.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Aly said:


> I think it's helpful to remember that_ this is no longer a puppy_. It's now an adolescent. An adolescent that may have arrived with resource guarding issues, but unfortunately and despite the best intentioned efforts of the OP, it's practiced the behavior for some time and seems to be generalizing. I wouldn't take the same approach with a puppy that I would with an adolescent, but I'm interested to hear how others might address the issue --- _with an adolescent._


Another person jumped in asking about guarding with a pup, so some of us were answering that instead of the OP’s issue.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> You briefly described the steps you take to prevent resource guarding in your second paragraph.


Actually, that is what I *can* do because I select puppies that value friends more than toys or food. It is exactly the opposite of what a previous poster recommended. I would never do these things with a possessive, resource-guarding puppy, and I recommend a totally different approach to my dog training clients who are unfortunate enough to have such a puppy. But I would never own a puppy like that.



David Winners said:


> It seems that you don't care for most of the people or posts on this forum. Why do you continue to choose to participate?


As you yourself have pointed out, many people who never post here read the posts on this forum, and I am often posting mainly for them.

I have no opinion at all about most people on this forum since I don't know them. I have posted some very complimentary posts about some of them based on their exceptional posts. I also knocked myself out posting numerous posts with useful pre- and post-surgical info for someone here who had to have surgery. (I don't recall you having squat to say to her BTW.)

It is true that I have no interest whatsoever in kissing up to anyone here, and no interest in climbing the social hierarchy here and becoming a "crowned member." My girlfriend says that stuff reminds her of the girlie junior high school cliques that she avoided like the plague.

It's also true that I couldn't care less about the opinions of folks who go into a foaming-at-the-mouth frenzy because they can't hammer me into submission by posting asinine insults instead of evidence or rational arguments.

I do have an interest in presenting different viewpoints that are often politically incorrect here, in defending decent folks who are being gleefully stomped on because they did things like--gasp--dare to criticize an unnamed breeder, and in presenting correct veterinary info. For example, here's a few unpopular views I've posted: grain-free foods are a disaster that never should have happened and not the holy of holies; just because something is natural does not mean it is beneficial or harmless; it is terribly unkind to make a new dog owner unhappy with her fabulous GSD because the dog does not have prick ears; you do not treat solid tumors with antibiotics, you remove them.

There are opinions that I value above all others: the dogs' opinions, and the opinions of competent scientists, vets, and epidemiologists. A scientific approach is exceedingly unpopular here.

If you're looking for a craven kiss-up who will grovel before the "popular" members, you're banging on the wrong door.

But don't worry. The admins here will ban me soon enough, and then you won't have to read viewpoints you don't like here anymore. Of course, you could just skip my posts if they bother you so much.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’ve actually had a ton of support from @JonRob. We don’t always agree, but his passion is an admirable trait I appreciate very much. He, like myself, can have a debate or differing opinions on topics, and still be respectable to those with differing opinions. It would be a pretty boring world if everyone agreed. As for posting or being involved in the forum, I can’t speak for him, but I can speak for myself. I’ve been called a liar, told I share too much personal information, been called a fraud, attacked over PM’s, been told I am doing the worse possible thing for my dogs, been accused of just posting for attention, and my posts and comments are generally ignored for the most part now. It doesn’t make me want to tuck tail and run away with my ball. I don’t care if my opinions are the popular opinions or not. I state my opinions and appreciate feedback. I come here to learn. I come here to see adorable GSD pics, and read threads that have a wide variety of opinions and advice. I’m here for the love of the breed, and because there is always more I can learn to increase my knowledge. And for a time, it was a personal sounding board, which had its pro’s and con’s. 

I gave my advice on this thread, and sent a PM to the OP about the way I handle resource guarding in “aggressive” dogs I take on. Whether he uses my method or another’s, I think it’s still beneficial to hear all sides and opinions and decide which, or a mix of which, would work for any OP in their individual lives, as opposed to just the popular opinion on the subject.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It is the disdain for the breed that reeks in the comments, not the opinions, that is offensive.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@JonRob mods and admins can't skip posts.Debate and different points of view are welcome.It's difficult at times when we feel strongly about a subject to remain polite and respectful of others opposing views,but we must.Here are the rules that we all agree to when becoming a member here:
https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/administrator-messages/750741-board-rules.html#post9119639
I'll leave this for whomever would like to refresh their memory.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is the disdain for the breed that reeks in the comments, not the opinions, that is offensive.


Disdain for the breed? Not hardly. I think GSDs--when they are what they should be--are the ultimate in dogs. No other breed comes close. And I totally respect the versatility of GSDs; it's this breed's greatest strength. I do think there has been a significant deterioration in the health and temperament of GSDs over the past 30 years, and I would like to see that reversed.

My girlfriend and I have so much "disdain" for the breed that we have always insisted on GSDs for our service dogs, even though it has become much harder to find suitable GSDs for this kind of work.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > You briefly described the steps you take to prevent resource guarding in your second paragraph.
> ...


a

I didn't read the post you are referring to (post surgery). I kind of stick to my areas of interest and my particular forums.

Don't take my post the wrong way. I tried to make it clear that I wasn't insinuating that you shouldn't share your viewpoints. I just honestly wondered about your motivation because most of your posts that I have read are either contradicting others or defending yourself.

A scientific approach is incredibly popular around here. Lots of classical and operant conditioning. Training advice based on "how dogs learn". There is also a lot of combined experience here. Many titles earned and centuries of training dogs to do things.

I've always valued another approach. Things like training military dogs positions with a clicker and touch stick instead of using the Koehler method. 

You could share your opinion without choosing to degrade others. You think I had a terrible family dog because she was possessive, aggressive and had the inclination to bite things and people. I think I had a great family dog because she was incredible with my family and would gladly (and effectively) give her life for any one of us. 

You lack experience with working dogs. That's ok. Just don't pass judgement on the people that choose to work and live with these amazing dogs every day. You like a particular type of dog. Your experience drives your opinion. That's totally fine! Just don't bash my dog because you don't understand her. It's offensive. 

You suggest that any puppy that shows guarding type behavior is a lost cause. I say it's an easy fix and something I have dealt with in hundreds of adolescent and adult working dogs that would literally fight you for a tennis ball. Puppies are easy, in this regard.

What I'm really asking you here is to respect the opinions of others as you want your opinion to be respected. We all have different experiences from which we formulate our opinions. Share your experiences and opinions without insulting others and your message will be received much more willingly. When you insinuate that some of the regular posting members have crap dogs, you are going to get some push back. Some characteristics are part of working like GSD. They are necessary for them to do their work. It doesn't make them bad dogs. It doesn't make them exempt from family life. It just makes them outside of your area of experience and expertise. 

I don't post on "my dog has ears that..." or "my dog poops like..." or my dog had surgery and..." or "my dog should eat..." type posts because I don't know that stuff. I feed what I feed because I read those posts. 

I feel like you have valuable information that would benefit our membership. I also feel you are passionate about helping people. I just think you should work on sharing your opinion and experience rather than discounting others and their dogs. 

BTW, I'm not part of any clique, club or online organization. I was inactive on this forum for a long time because I had no time to spare. I haven't seen many posts from the "regulars" from back in the day when I was really active here, so my posting this isn't part of a collective anything. It's just my opinion and I'm trying to be helpful, not contradictory.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Jchrest said:


> I’ve actually had a ton of support from @*JonRob*. We don’t always agree, but his passion is an admirable trait I appreciate very much. He, like myself, can have a debate or differing opinions on topics, and still be respectable to those with differing opinions. It would be a pretty boring world if everyone agreed. As for posting or being involved in the forum, I can’t speak for him, but I can speak for myself. I’ve been called a liar, told I share too much personal information, been called a fraud, attacked over PM’s, been told I am doing the worse possible thing for my dogs, been accused of just posting for attention, and my posts and comments are generally ignored for the most part now. It doesn’t make me want to tuck tail and run away with my ball. I don’t care if my opinions are the popular opinions or not. I state my opinions and appreciate feedback.


Thanks, Jchrest. Keep hanging in there. Life would indeed be boring if we were all the same.

And I've never forgotten--and never will--that you were the only one here who was ready and willing to put her money where her mouth is and get off her behind and drive hundreds of miles to help a rescue GSD. The only reason it didn't happen is because the rescue group wouldn't adopt out of state.

Oh, and here's a few of my posts that show how much I dislike forum members:

About JamesandFido:



JonRob said:


> Oh what fine dogs, both of them. You are indeed blessed.


About selzer:



JonRob said:


> What a fine and decent post. You have very good sense and a kind heart.


About JChrest:



JonRob said:


> You and your grandpa are a lot smarter than many people.


About Mvp



JonRob said:


> Mvp is one of the most intelligent and conscientious people my girlfriend and I have ever met. And his family behaves perfectly appropriately and reasonably with dogs. We do not meet folks like him very often. We are so impressed with him that we have promised him lifetime training and dog support, free of charge, anytime, regardless of where he gets his next dog or whether he takes our advice. It is a promise we make to very few people. And it will be a privilege to keep our promise to him and his family.


About David Winners:



JonRob said:


> Fama was a truly awesome dog. My girlfriend and I loved your stories about her. They made us laugh, and, well, when we heard she had crossed over, that made us cry. And we are not exactly the weepy type.
> 
> When you do write your book about her, we will be the first to buy it.
> 
> God bless that dog. And you.


Pretty nasty stuff, eh?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

The current moderation / administration panel has a wide spectrum of different types of GSD people. Schutzhund/IGP, both American and German showlines, MWD, LE, breeders, rescuers, professional guide dog instructor, and people who compete either seriously or just for fun in all kinds of sports. 

Half of us would probably never buy the dogs that the other half of us adore, and that’s completely fine. 

No one gets banned for having an unpopular opinion - people get banned for breaking rules repeatedly, and refusing to course correct after being reminded of the rules.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> You think I had a terrible family dog because she was possessive, aggressive and had the inclination to bite things and people. I think I had a great family dog because she was incredible with my family and would gladly (and effectively) give her life for any one of us.


Why are you making stuff up? This is what I had to say about your dog Fama:



JonRob said:


> Fama was a truly awesome dog. My girlfriend and I loved your stories about her. They made us laugh, and, well, when we heard she had crossed over, that made us cry. And we are not exactly the weepy type.
> 
> When you do write your book about her, we will be the first to buy it.
> 
> God bless that dog. And you.


Just about everything else in your post is false, and I have better things to do than go over it point by point. Believe whatever you want.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

WIBackpacker said:


> Half of us would probably never buy the dogs that the other half of us adore, and that’s completely fine.


Exactly.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> You lack experience with working dogs.


What are you talking about? My girlfriend and I are both physically disabled, we have used GSD service dogs for many years, and we have trained service dogs for others. If a service dog for a disabled person is not a working dog, I don't know what is.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > You lack experience with working dogs.
> ...


I'm physically disabled and have a service dog as well. 

My apologies for not combining service dogs and patrol dogs into the same category. How would you prefer that I refer to dogs that bite bad people for a living or sport? I'll be sure to use whatever term you specify in future conversations with you as to not offend. 

As it stands, "working dog", on a GSD forum, typically refers to sport, law enforcement and military dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > You think I had a terrible family dog because she was possessive, aggressive and had the inclination to bite things and people. I think I had a great family dog because she was incredible with my family and would gladly (and effectively) give her life for any one of us.
> ...


Ok so pretend you hadn't read about Fama and me. I'm a new poster in the aggression forum and this is my first post.

Help!

I just got this GSD 6 weeks ago. She bit me 4 times the first week I had her. She's bitten 8 other people since then including my wife. She will guard a tennis ball with her life. The guy at the kennels that feeds her pushed her bowl into her kennel with a broom because she will attack him if he goes inside. She barks incessantly in the car. She attacks the crate door whenever I or anyone else goes near it. I really want her to be part of my family including my 4 year old granddaughter. What do I do?

What would your advice be?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Ok so pretend you hadn't read about Fama and me. I'm a new poster in the aggression forum and this is my first post.
> 
> Help!
> 
> ...


Ahh, a little role playing:

What a shame, you've made her feel completely unwanted. You should listen to the nasty people on this forum and return her right now to someone who will love her for who she truly is. I see this all the time, people get these terribly bred sport dogs that have ruined the breed, so its not your fault. YOU are wonderful! 

How'd I do David? I was going for a little good cop/bad cop all in one, with just a little Eddie Haskell to balance it.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@David Winners, I’m trying to figure out why it’s okay for a moderator to get snarky, defensive, and belittle another member, but a member who is disagreeing with some heat gets a slap on the hand or a short or permanent ban. Are mods not held to the same rules and standards as a member is? 

I get that working dogs on this forum are mostly sport or PP dogs, but to be a jerk about service animals (especially when you have one of your own) because they are trained in different situations is pretty insulting. Not to mention the term “working dog” applies more towards a service dog than a dog competing in sport. 

Definition of working dog
: a dog suitable by size, breeding, or training for useful work (such as draft or herding) especially as distinguished from one suitable primarily for pet, show, or sporting use. “https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/working dog”

To belittle someone over what the term should be used for a dog that is a service dog for the disabled is very unbecoming, and quite frankly breaks the large majority of rules dogma so kindly posted for us members to read again. 

What I’m getting out of this is that the mods can go off on a heated tangent and that’s okay, but lord forgive a member for doing the same. It’s this kind of “picking” that made me leave this site in 2015. I was hoping it was a much more civilized forum when I came back a few months ago. It’s a shame to see the same subject being beaten to the ground, and the ones doing the beating are still the “working dog” members that look down on (verbally on the forum), members that have working dogs that don’t compete. Love for the breed should cover all aspects of the breed, not just those that title and compete. Sadly, the tone of this forum is still lacking. Especially when mods jump into the mosh pit.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > Ok so pretend you hadn't read about Fama and me. I'm a new poster in the aggression forum and this is my first post.
> ...


Sorry not sorry, but this is the type of crap I’m talking about. Everyone knows who you are alluding to, it’s not hard to figure out. But he will continue to get slapped down while snark and belligerent disregard or the rules gets chuckles and pats on the back. 

So apparently this isn’t a forum for ALL members, just the elite that are allowed to run around unleashed.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I think this has run its course. 



ADMIN Lisa


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