# IPO and K9 police training



## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Hey guys im just wondering what is the different between IPO 1/2/3 and K9 unit for police training ? I maybe wrong but it seems like dogs who go to IPO training only attack sleeves when they see it but police dogs will kick someone's ass w/o sleeves or the thick jacket.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

I think that's the point....


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

How many training sessions of either side have you been on? How many dogs of either side have you seen work?


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

martemchik said:


> How many training sessions of either side have you been on? How many dogs of either side have you seen work?


None just by posts here on the forum. am i wrong ?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It all depends on the training. IPO dogs have to bite sleeve or be DQ'd in trial. IPO dogs can also learn to bite suit/hidden sleeve...all depends on the training and clarity that the dog has.


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

*Training*

Go to a class and observe, if they allow it. Their dogs who are trained to disarm(carrying a weapon), they also have contraband smellers, and then there are those who take down dangerous people and will keep the person down until called off. There are rescue dogs, and cadaver dogs. endless possibilities with this breeds intelligence and drive.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

difference in agitators -- which are not "helpers" , not friends before and not friends after .


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Ace GSD said:


> None just by posts here on the forum. am i wrong ?


Yeah. You have to go to trainings, see the dogs. You'll see, and hopefully the helper will give you some idea of what kind of dog you're dealing with.

It’s all about training. And most sport people could care less if their dog is a “real” dog or not. It’s all about sport and points. So why does the dog need to be trained to actually bite?

Police dogs are started the same way sport dogs are. Sleeve, jacket, suit. Doesn’t matter. They’re started with a flirt pole and a bite pillow. They get more pressure put on them to see if they’ll hold up in a “real fight” but you can do that just as easily in IPO training…just ask a helper to do it and they will. Advanced dogs can have a hidden sleeve slipped to them and see if they’ll bite it. I have a more “sleeve focused” dog because he was started late and truly does look at it as a game. He’s still got plenty of fight drive, and he doesn’t slip off the sleeve when weird pressure is put on him, but he’s 100% sleeve focused. He’s bitten a hidden sleeve before. It’s a fun exercise…most dogs will do it if the helper presents it correctly.

There are inherent genetic things that police K9s and military dogs need to have over sport dogs. It doesn’t mean that a sport dog can’t have those things as well…but at the end of the day, a sport dog doesn’t have as high of an expectation as those dogs do, so there’s no reason to train the way that K9 or military does. I do the sport for fun, for myself, and to have some idea of what my dog is capable of. But lives are never at stake when my dog is “working” so there’s really no need to train him to that level or test him to a level that might make him break and then I can’t enjoy what I like to do with him if he doesn’t have the genetic capability to take whatever the helper (or myself) decide to throw at him.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Yeah. You have to go to trainings, see the dogs. You'll see, and hopefully the helper will give you some idea of what kind of dog you're dealing with.
> 
> It’s all about training. And most sport people could care less if their dog is a “real” dog or not. It’s all about sport and points. So why does the dog need to be trained to actually bite?
> 
> ...


Thanks guys for the info cause i saw a lady post the other day . She had 2 german shepherd who go through IPO training but when some drunk guy get in her car and she was so afraid even yelling.. the dog just sat there. So i was wondering what does the police do differently . I guess genetic and hidden sleeve does make sense.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

That sounds like that dog, not the average sport dog. If someone tried to enter my car with my IPO dog it wouldn't end well for them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Ace GSD said:


> Thanks guys for the info cause i saw a lady post the other day . She had 2 german shepherd who go through IPO training but when some drunk guy get in her car and she was so afraid even yelling.. the dog just sat there. So i was wondering what does the police do differently . I guess genetic and hidden sleeve does make sense.


This thread? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-your-dog-likely-never-going-protect-you.html
Didn't she say that her dog she expected to protect her never barks at training either? I think she's still in the beginning stages of training in the sport, as her dog is only 16 mos old. I wouldn't take her experience as the normal behavior of most dogs that I see training in the sport.
I did a protection challenge when my dog had only a BH....we'd never ever trained for the scenario's presented and my dog lit up when we did the carjack exercise. Usually he's crated in the vehicle but this time he was in front with me(not my ride, nor was my dog familiar with it) and when the perp hit the hood of the vehicle as he approached my dog was in his face before he could even get a hand in the window. There was no bite allowed in that exercise....but I have no doubt my dog would have gotten a taste if he could have. And he wasn't all crazy cujo acting, just showing some intimidation and low growl until the guy banged on the car.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Freddy said:


> That sounds like that dog, not the average sport dog. If someone tried to enter my car with my IPO dog it wouldn't end well for them.


Have you ever tested the dog in this situation? 

David Winners


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Have you ever tested the dog in this situation?
> 
> David Winners


Cuz if ya haven't tested it, ya can't say what will happen.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> This thread? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-your-dog-likely-never-going-protect-you.html
> Didn't she say that her dog she expected to protect her never barks at training either? I think she's still in the beginning stages of training in the sport, as her dog is only 16 mos old. I wouldn't take her experience as the normal behavior of most dogs that I see training in the sport.
> I did a protection challenge when my dog had only a BH....we'd never ever trained for the scenario's presented and my dog lit up when we did the carjack exercise. Usually he's crated in the vehicle but this time he was in front with me(not my ride, nor was my dog familiar with it) and when the perp hit the hood of the vehicle as he approached my dog was in his face before he could even get a hand in the window. There was no bite allowed in that exercise....but I have no doubt my dog would have gotten a taste if he could have. And he wasn't all crazy cujo acting, just showing some intimidation and low growl until the guy banged on the car.


This was at a schutzhund club? My club would definitely frown upon something like this. Was there a point of the exercise relating to ipo or just for fun? 

I secretly love to test my dogs out in different scenarios on my own time.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

simba405 said:


> This was at a schutzhund club? My club would definitely frown upon something like this. Was there a point of the exercise relating to ipo or just for fun?
> 
> I secretly love to test my dogs out in different scenarios on my own time.


No this club trains more PSA stuff...I just go to their events to get my dog doing different things. We never train with the club or know what scenarios will be presented during the challenges. The hardest one for my dog was the passive bite on a decoy quietly walking away several yards from where we were. My dog was confused when I told him to bite, but caught on quick! Looking foward to this year(every year is a different theme, the first one I did was a zombie theme, last year was commando, this year is the madhouse. The Michigan K-9 Challenge


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> No this club trains more PSA stuff...I just go to their events to get my dog doing different things. We never train with the club or know what scenarios will be presented during the challenges. The hardest one for my dog was the passive bite on a decoy quietly walking away several yards from where we were. My dog was confused when I told him to bite, but caught on quick! Looking foward to this year(every year is a different theme, the first one I did was a zombie theme, last year was commando, this year is the madhouse. The Michigan K-9 Challenge


Lol wow that's actually really really really really cool. 

Psa will never be popular enough because of the type of dog required but seems way more fun for the handler than schutzhund.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

This is really cool... Does it cost alot


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I just realized there's a psa club in my neighborhood. sounds too good to be true and no ipo club ever replied to me but I just emailed them.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I just realized there's a psa club in my neighborhood. sounds too good to be true and no ipo club ever replied to me but I just emailed them.


If you think schutzhund clubs are full of egos and stuck up people then psa takes it to a whole new level. Not as relaxed as schutzhund


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

no, lol, just stating a fact. I'm looking for a club and can't get one to reply. 

so I guess no chance for a reply, huh?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

lalachka said:


> no, lol, just stating a fact. I'm looking for a club and can't get one to reply.
> 
> so I guess no chance for a reply, huh?


Sure they could reply. They might not reply after they find out your dog's Pedigree lol. Or after an evaluation. 

Basically don't want to waste their time. Not as social as schutzhund club. But that's just my own experience.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

simba405 said:


> Sure they could reply. They might not reply after they find out your dog's Pedigree lol. Or after an evaluation.
> 
> Basically don't want to waste their time. Not as social as schutzhund club. But that's just my own experience.


Lol that's why I put everything in the initial email. maybe that's why I don't get replies. whatever, I won't beg anyone. if my unpapered dog is too low class for them their loss. my dog is amazing. 

here's my email

lol wow, I went to get my email and saw that they replied and said to call them. I'm about to



hi, i'd like to join your club. I have an 18 month old shepherd with no papers. he's untrained. I'm looking for something to do with him.

what are the requirements to join? how much is it? how often do you meet? can I come out to get him evaluated to see if he's suitable? he might have some nerve issues, like he barks and lunges and some people and almost all dogs but never bitten anyone. he will bark and lunge at a dog but would then be fine if the other dog is. I'm assuming he's insecure and trying to scare the other dog away but once he sees the dog is not a threat he gives a play bow.

I would love to learn all about him and dogs in general. i was hoping that joining a club would let me do that.

thank you 
Natalie


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

wow. I'm going to see them. I'm so glad I read this thread. I thought there's no way there's s club here and there is. and they do IPO too. I'm excited. he said that any dog will be able to do something so I'm assuming this is his way of saying that I can join. but he will be evaluated next week and we go from there.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

please join a regular akc type obedience class and get basic training and control.

PSA or IPO clubs ?? for a mature untrained , nervy , out of control dog with an inexperienced handler is no place for any work which opens the door for aggression.

it has not one thing to do with the dog being unpapered . It does have to do with liability and waivers .

Your dog just does not sound like a candidate for this work.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ace, I'm sorry for derailing your thread. I do thst all the time and to all threads)))))) So it's not personal lol


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

this is my evaluation of him, nervy and out of control. 3 trainers saw him, said he's a gem, he's a good dog, no one said anything about him being out of control. they said his reactivity is a habit. habit that I must've formed because I don't know what i'm doing so I want to learn. 

but I will let the club decide whether he's suitable or not. I just want to do stuff with him. they say he's not suitable - I will keep looking.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

also, I say he's not trained because I have high standards. he has basic training. it's not bomb proof that's why I say he's untrained.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Congratulations Lala!


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

lalachka said:


> ace, I'm sorry for derailing your thread. I do thst all the time and to all threads)))))) So it's not personal lol


im enjoying the posts keep going pls


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

If I hadn't gone and tried with my dog, she wouldn't be where she is now. Generally speaking, most people would probably have laughed at the idea of a white shepherd doing protection work. Leia bombed her instinct test hardcore. You can't do much with a dog who simply sits or stands there, staring off into space without wanting to engage the helper in any fashion. She was getting close to five years old too when we started. 

The car brought out the defense, and within a few sessions, we didn't need that any longer, and now I can hardly hold her back when she knows what we are going to do. I most certainly was and am an inexperienced handler, however without going out and getting experience, how else can you become more experienced?  

Sure I know that I can't compete with Leia. It doesn't bother me, but I am learning a lot with her. I am also learning a lot with my puppy who is a lot of an airhead most of the time, but once he gets a game, he gets it and loves to just fly headfirst into it. True, neither of them are dogs bred for high working drive, but it still gives me a chance to learn and it takes adapting with them, which I hope only helps me learn more so that one day when I can have a dog who could compete well that I will be more ready than I am now. 

Guess that is just my take on it lol. The helper I was working with (who sadly moved upstate because of going to school at WSU the next two years) didn't mind what the dog you were working with was or came from. He knew some dogs could be a challenge, could be different and he never minded the challenge if he could get the dog to engage. Everybody has to start somewhere after all.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Congratulations Lala!


Thank you))))) This will be interesting if he's accepted.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

collie, I like challenges in my job. I think anyone who truly loves what they do love a challenge. that's what it's all about, figuring out the tough stuff. 

anyway, I think Carmen has an issue with my dog doing bite work. though it'd be interesting to try that's not my reason for wanting to join. I just want to be around people that love training dogs and are good at it so I can ask a million questions and learn all I can. I'm also interested in people that understand aggression. I'd like to learn all about my dog, what makes him react, how that's dealt with, which aggression is appropriate, which isn't. 

I think this is the place to go for that. I'm hoping it is anyway.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

as a matter of fact, if they tell me I can join but can't do bite work I will join. I just want to be around people that know shepherds and understand aggression


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

lalachka said:


> as a matter of fact, if they tell me I can join but can't do bite work I will join. I just want to be around people that know shepherds and understand aggression


o yeah i totally agree lol id love to be around those people


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Ace GSD said:


> o yeah i totally agree lol id love to be around those people


yep. I'm really excited. I've wanted to join a club for a while. 
if thy tell me he can't join because of nerves i will ask to join without bite work. 

but i have a feeling I'm exaggerating his issues. I always do that with everything. I'd rather make it look worse than it is than better than it is.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I think the trainer I was working with just loves working with dogs.  He is good at it too honestly. I learned a lot simply watching how he worked with each dog, listening to his explanations about what he was doing and why. Talking with him about dogs that he had worked with in the past. He has had all kinds of dogs, worked with all kinds of breeds, at all different levels. You could just see the joy when a dog figured something out that they hadn't before. He would get just as excited as you did when your dog did something well. 

He had mentioned if we couldn't get Leia to give him something in the car, that it probably would have been all we could do, but she tracked him as he walked in front of the car and started to bark when he got to the opposite corner of the hood. She lives to do things that I like, just loves getting to be with me. She takes the job of protecting very seriously. Though she is also my most social dog too.

Joining even to just get to learn is always fun! My golden likes playing tug, but he is a wizz at tracking and I have done the most obedience with him. So I still did learn some things that I could just use in general with my dogs through just learning and watching and asking. Plus getting to sit and watch the dogs work is so much fun. You get to learn what makes a dog excel in one aspect, how other dogs differ, etc. Watching different breeds work is really cool too since they all have different ways that the drives come out.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

that's amazing. I love people that are good at what they do and love it. I don't care what it is, but there's something beautiful about watching someone do something he loves and he's a master at. I can watch for hours. 

yeah, I'm hoping that there's someone like that over there, that loves dogs and working them, knows all about it and doesn't mind answering endless questions and explaining the theory behind the methods.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Ace GSD said:


> o yeah i totally agree lol id love to be around those people


Careful..alot of them are that annoying macho type that care about fight drive.. Especially some of the girls...


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

My girl is a real beginner at ipo, she is raring to go when let out of the car and i can hardly hold her back. But at this point she knows the game, its all situational.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I don't believe a thin nerved dog should be doing bite work. Even the non protection aspects of schutzhund can be stressful to a dog that is not solid. People love to bad mouth schutzhund and talk about how boring it is or how pointless the patterns are. People rail on and on about how much more real PSA or Police training is. That is fine but a dog that is not solid will quickly be exposed in schutzhund. And that is really the purpose of the sport. To separate the wheat from the chaff. To expose the dogs. To evaluate the dogs next to each other against a known set of standards. If you are going into the sport with a dog that you already know is weak you are setting both your self and your dog up for failure. Schutzhund does not strengthen your dog. The only thing it does is shape what is there into a measurable picture.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Careful..alot of them are that annoying macho type that care about fight drive.. Especially some of the girls...


hahhaha i will be careful


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

robk said:


> I don't believe a thin nerved dog should be doing bite work. Even the non protection aspects of schutzhund can be stressful to a dog that is not solid. People love to bad mouth schutzhund and talk about how boring it is or how pointless the patterns are. People rail on and on about how much more real PSA or Police training is. That is fine but a dog that is not solid will quickly be exposed in schutzhund. And that is really the purpose of the sport. To separate the wheat from the chaff. To expose the dogs. To evaluate the dogs next to each other against a known set of standards. If you are going into the sport with a dog that you already know is weak you are setting both your self and your dog up for failure. Schutzhund does not strengthen your dog. The only thing it does is shape what is there into a measurable picture.


So true....I see more than a few nervy dogs that can't handle the IPO style of training move to other bite sports. Or their handlers decide IPO is too much structure/dedication/commitment and change because the handler can't deal with all 3 phases. Not knocking on SDA, but that is one sport that doesn't need the total commitment like IPO. Tracking is an option, not a must.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"anyway, I think Carmen has an issue with my dog doing bite work"

actually I have an issue with any dog that is not totally sound and stable and under good and responsible management doing bite work . Period. 

There is no particular enlightenment in the PSA group of trainers . Those that participate don't come out with an aura of enlightenment or knowledge and for sure the group would not have specialized knowledge of GSD !


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I can think of how the obedience could show a nervy dog based on some of the exercises for the BH but I am curious to how the tracking could show that. I dabbled in that with my golden because he has a nose for finding things, but I haven't really tried with any other dog of mine yet. I know that the different sports are time consuming and take dedication and a dog that can handle it, though I do think even if you have a dog who can't really get far, you can still learn a lot through working with the dog. 

The trainer I worked with was not affiliated with any club in the area. I have visited the local club in the past and I know my older female wouldn't be worth paying their dues to join because we likely wouldn't go far due to my inability to dedicate that kind of time. However when I was hanging around the club I had no dog at that time, but it still let me see and learn things. But I ask lots of questions and live to learn. 

But yeah. How the tracking could show a dog with weak nerves is what I am curious to an explanation about. As a tech, I treat any dog trained in a protection sport with the same caution and respect I would of a K9 officer. The dogs may not be of the same "caliber" but I would treat them the same in any case. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

tracking wouldn't matter where nerves are concerned, though the dog should show confidence when working individual of the handler. My comment on tracking was that IPO IS 3 phases, 'protection sports' don't focus on that, or have the precision of obedience required.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Colie CVT said:


> I can think of how the obedience could show a nervy dog based on some of the exercises for the BH but I am curious to how the tracking could show that. I dabbled in that with my golden because he has a nose for finding things, but I haven't really tried with any other dog of mine yet. I know that the different sports are time consuming and take dedication and a dog that can handle it, though I do think even if you have a dog who can't really get far, you can still learn a lot through working with the dog.
> 
> The trainer I worked with was not affiliated with any club in the area. I have visited the local club in the past and I know my older female wouldn't be worth paying their dues to join because we likely wouldn't go far due to my inability to dedicate that kind of time. However when I was hanging around the club I had no dog at that time, but it still let me see and learn things. But I ask lots of questions and live to learn.
> 
> ...


Because tracking becomes an obedience exercize in Schutzhund. The dog has to track whether he wants to or not. It has to be precise. He has to track if the weather is bad or if it is dry out. He has to stay on task and his mind cannot wander from his task. He has to correctly indicate on articles and work independently with out handler help. This is much more stressful than you realize. Get up and track your dog every day under different weather conditions and see if your dog will keep wanting to track. You will see how much pressure is put on the dog over time.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

nerves in tracking do matter though . 

quote "I can think of how the obedience could show a nervy dog based on some of the exercises for the BH but I am curious to how the tracking could show that."

a dog sniffing around for his own pleasure is different . A committed track , which is high obedience , requires analysis and decision making and focus . A nervy dog tends to have difficulty working away from the handler (think nerve and clingy) , will be distracted by environmental stimuli , will feel the pressure and respond by shutting down or faking it , or being a non-starter .


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nerves always matter, but I've seen some pretty nervy dogs that find a certain comfort zone footstep tracking where they can tune out the bogeymen that haunt them in obedience.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Nerves always matter, but I've seen some pretty nervy dogs that find a certain comfort zone footstep tracking where they can tune out the bogeymen that haunt them in obedience.


Agree
My dog that could never do protection due to her nerves would probably V an IPO FH track...though reporting in and the temperament test before doing the actual track would DQ her.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

vehicle based bites, over picnic tables, through boxes and around obstacles in building searches, bite suit bites, and other fun scenarios when the weather prevents outside training. I'd say he's pretty versatile.





David Winners said:


> Have you ever tested the dog in this situation?
> 
> David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

once again. my dog hasn't been deemed nervy by anyone yet. that's why I'm going there, to learn about my dog. the nervy, fear aggression and all the other labels are labels I put on him myself after reading the forums. 

I'm going to see someone else this weekend to ask for an evaluation. anything I want to do with my dog is strictly so I can learn all about him and make his life comfortable. I need people that understand the breed and aggression to help me do that. 

everyone calm down.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

They were responding to my question there.  I was curious since I wanted to know how it would show a dog that had weaker nerves. My golden is actually nervous around new people at first, especially children, but when we were doing some tracking he was very focused. He will track when asked no matter what the conditions are and he is able to find things when asked or not when his nose is set to things. 

Learned something new! I had a feeling it would deal with having to focus down and ignore distractions. My golden and older female shepherd are good at focusing on the task at hand, moving around or ignoring distractions. Leia has a more even set of nerves than Myles, but Myles responds to pressure by focusing down on the task at hand. So it may depend in ways on the dog itself and how it responds to pressure in the end. 

Only way to know for sure is to test the dog and see how it responds. Even if the test is as simple as seeing how they react to being around new people in a new social setting. So you don't really know for certain unless you try. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

robk said:


> I don't believe a thin nerved dog should be doing bite work. Even the non protection aspects of schutzhund can be stressful to a dog that is not solid. People love to bad mouth schutzhund and talk about how boring it is or how pointless the patterns are. People rail on and on about how much more real PSA or Police training is. That is fine but a dog that is not solid will quickly be exposed in schutzhund. And that is really the purpose of the sport. To separate the wheat from the chaff. To expose the dogs. To evaluate the dogs next to each other against a known set of standards. If you are going into the sport with a dog that you already know is weak you are setting both your self and your dog up for failure. Schutzhund does not strengthen your dog. The only thing it does is shape what is there into a measurable picture.


I will never do sport, not with this dog for sure but probably with any dog. I'm not interested in it. I also know that sport doesn't strengthen the dog, it exposes what's there. 

I want to be around people that know the breed and understand aggression so they can help me with my dog. the only reason I'm trying to join a club because that's the only way for me to be around those people consistently. 

I think I repeated this many times. so what's the issue? I thought a club will evaluate my dog and if he's deemed nervy then he won't be able to do bite work (which is not why I'm joining so I don't care) and we will only do those things that he's suitable for.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Colie CVT said:


> They were responding to my question there.  I was curious since I wanted to know how it would show a dog that had weaker nerves. My golden is actually nervous around new people at first, especially children, but when we were doing some tracking he was very focused. He will track when asked no matter what the conditions are and he is able to find things when asked or not when his nose is set to things.
> 
> Learned something new! I had a feeling it would deal with having to focus down and ignore distractions. My golden and older female shepherd are good at focusing on the task at hand, moving around or ignoring distractions. Leia has a more even set of nerves than Myles, but Myles responds to pressure by focusing down on the task at hand. So it may depend in ways on the dog itself and how it responds to pressure in the end.
> 
> ...


Oh I see. in any case, before the club replied, I had a session this Sunday with someone who will evaluate him (hopefully, I will ask him to) 
so hopefully I will know this Sunday what my dog is all about. he's seen him before and never said anything good or bad, now I will ask for his input.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You really shouldn’t allow anyone to test your dog’s nerve the first time they see him. They shouldn’t push him past doing some prey stuff. Also remember, this will be your dog’s first time doing something like this, in a new environment, and he might not have any idea what’s going on. You’ve probably taught him some things that are contradictory to what is expected of him and so the first time is usually always weird (with an older dog). IMO…the evaluation process takes weeks, and even if there are “nerve issues” at the beginning, a good helper might be able to work through them.

I’ve never read anything that would scream to me that your dog doesn’t have what it takes for YOU to learn what Schutzhund is all about with him. I’m sure he’s not next year’s national champion, but I’ve never seen anything that could say he’d be destroyed and turned into a huge liability by doing IPO type training.

The only thing that could prevent your dog from doing bite work at this point…is lack of prey drive. If your dog is 100% disinterested in a tug toy, or a flirt pole, it will be tough. But anything else…could probably be worked past. And even prey drive can be brought out if you stick with it.

I wouldn’t take any advice from people hundreds of miles away that think they know your dog from a few internet posts.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

he has some prey. doesn't like tugs too much but goes nuts for balls and sticks and rocks. I'm sure the fact that he doesn't like tugs has to do with my lack of skill. he will tug on stuff, like ball on string, string of the ball just not the tug. if I let the tug drag on a string them he will go crazy catching it. he almost smashed into a fence catching it last night. don't know how he didn't break a leg. 

my worry is aggression. he does have some. if a person ignores him he's fine. if they don't and look at him and walk towards him while saying stuff - he will bark and lunge. not all the time but sometimes. 
and dogs of course. so he has problems for sure. but I was told his reaction is a habit, he's not invested in it, it's pretty easy to distract him. 

I'm sure all his problems are learned, from dumb handling. I cringe when I remember the things I've done. 


but omg, I didn't realize evaluating him would mean bite work. I'm clueless lol, I thought he'd see how my dog acts around new things and new people. 

thank you, I do know that bite work should be in prey for a while, I'm hoping the guy knows that too lol. but really, I'm not that interested in it. actually, lol, it's hard for me to watch my dog be stressed (later on in defense) so I'm not too excited about it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I mean…there’s little point in evaluating for the other phases if the dog won’t bite. Basically, 99% of people aren’t going to keep coming to IPO practice if their dog isn’t doing protection. Some will still work for tracking and obedience, but it’s quite rare. And very few people stick around and learn from other dogs when theirs isn’t capable. Just human nature to lose interest when your dog isn’t doing it.

Here’s the thing…your dog might have some confidence issues. That’s why he shows the aggression, so be very careful letting people try to get him to scare or show that aggression. You want to build his confidence and see if that decreases the aggression issues. A confident dog…is much less likely to randomly react to non-threats. The fact that your dog just barks and lunges but doesn’t bite, says that he’s not confident. He’s trying to scare the person into leaving the situation, and doesn’t actually want to “deal” with the situation. 

Don’t allow anyone to do any stick hits, don’t allow anyone to get horizontal with the dog, make sure the helper is a friend, a toy, not a threat at all. It really should just be a prey drive test. The reason your dog doesn’t tug…is that he’s young, and you have no idea how to transfer his prey drive into a reward system. If he does go after tennis balls, balls on a string, and does like it…means that its possible to get him to do it more.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If you have no interest in bitework anyway, I really wouldn't think a PSA club is the right place for you Lalachka. I think that part of it is their priority.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I haven't tried it, so it's not my top priority. maybe once I try it I will like it. but where else can I find people that know about aggression? it wouldn't be the AKC club, would it? lol I know it's not the pet trainers, I decided against them a long time ago. 

I'm interested in learning what makes my dog react and when a reaction is appropriate. I just want him to be comfortable. 

who can help me? I will go there. a club was suggested to me by a few people. you know one of them lol


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Lala, in another thread you mentioned that you are having trouble engaging your dog. I bet the club will help you.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Lala, in another thread you mentioned that you are having trouble engaging your dog. I bet the club will help you.


yep)))) I have some games he loves but I run out of imagination and tools. I'm following ME videos but when I try what he does I don't get the same results lol


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I mean…there’s little point in evaluating for the other phases if the dog won’t bite. Basically, 99% of people aren’t going to keep coming to IPO practice if their dog isn’t doing protection. Some will still work for tracking and obedience, but it’s quite rare. And very few people stick around and learn from other dogs when theirs isn’t capable. Just human nature to lose interest when your dog isn’t doing it.
> 
> Here’s the thing…your dog might have some confidence issues. That’s why he shows the aggression, so be very careful letting people try to get him to scare or show that aggression. You want to build his confidence and see if that decreases the aggression issues. A confident dog…is much less likely to randomly react to non-threats. The fact that your dog just barks and lunges but doesn’t bite, says that he’s not confident. He’s trying to scare the person into leaving the situation, and doesn’t actually want to “deal” with the situation.
> 
> Don’t allow anyone to do any stick hits, don’t allow anyone to get horizontal with the dog, make sure the helper is a friend, a toy, not a threat at all. It really should just be a prey drive test. The reason your dog doesn’t tug…is that he’s young, and you have no idea how to transfer his prey drive into a reward system. If he does go after tennis balls, balls on a string, and does like it…means that its possible to get him to do it more.


yes!!! that's why I'm into tugging. lol ME. trying to use tugs as rewards. and I'm not able to get him to go crazy for the tug like that. 

I will be the 1% lol. I will stick around even if he can't do bite work. I'm really not going there for that. I just need some guidance from people that know what they're doing. 

yep, I won't let them stress him but when we tug I've messed with him and he's ok. he's not a bad dog, he can take a lot. let's see where this goes. 

yep, he doesn't want to bite. he just wants people to go away. you read him pretty well.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I mean…there’s little point in evaluating for the other phases if the dog won’t bite. Basically, 99% of people aren’t going to keep coming to IPO practice if their dog isn’t doing protection. Some will still work for tracking and obedience, but it’s quite rare. And very few people stick around and learn from other dogs when theirs isn’t capable. Just human nature to lose interest when your dog isn’t doing it.


That's completely not true. You don't have to do bite work to get titles. We have dogs that are just there to get tracking titles. We also have dogs that refuse to track so they get the schA titles etc. 

Also an evaluation at my club wouldn't involve bite work. There are actually clubs out there that will bring out a whip and start agitating the dog the very first time? 

An evaluation is just seeing if your dog has prey drive and if it's environmentally sound. Then we work from there. 

Lala, If it's a psa club you are wasting your time and theirs. They don't have time to sit around and answer your 100 questions that pertain nothing to the sport. It sounds like you are basically looking for a trainer and not a club.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> So true....I see more than a few nervy dogs that can't handle the IPO style of training move to other bite sports. Or their handlers decide IPO is too much structure/dedication/commitment and change because the handler can't deal with all 3 phases. Not knocking on SDA, but that is one sport that doesn't need the total commitment like IPO. Tracking is an option, not a must.


Every sport has its flaws.

The main one with ipo is that it allows some really bad dogs to hide behind the structure and routine. The routine is pounded into the dog. I've personally seen dogs perform great in practice but at trail if the helper does something out of the ordinary, the dog falls apart. For some dogs, the conditions need to be perfect and the routine normal or else the dog is in trouble. 

There are dogs that have ipo titles that if you're honest, have no business getting that title. 

I do agree that ipo is the best overall test of the breed but there are glaring flaws. 

To me the most important quality in a dog is nerve strength. Sports that focus on the protection phase does a better job of shifting through the nerve strength of dogs better than ipo.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> That's completely not true. You don't have to do bite work to get titles. We have dogs that are just there to get tracking titles. We also have dogs that refuse to track so they get the schA titles etc.
> 
> Also an evaluation at my club wouldn't involve bite work. There are actually clubs out there that will bring out a whip and start agitating the dog the very first time?
> 
> ...


I have a trainer. 

I told him what I'm looking for and he said to come. never know, everyone is different. some clubs might like to answer questions about why things work the way they do and explain drives and aggression. 

I want to learn about my dog and dogs in general. where is that done? aggression in dogs.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

besides, I'm not wasting anyone's time. I'm paying for it and it's not that cheap. 

what'd the issue? they feel like I'm not suitable or we have incompatible goals or thy don't want to educate me - we go our separate ways. I don't know what i'm looking for. I'm trying different things. I want to learn


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

See…I don’t get why people care what others are doing with their “subpar” dogs. Very few helpers/TDs are going to push a dog that’s clearly going to be a liability to do protection work. Sure…if the handler is “powerful” in the club, they can probably get them to take a questionable dog and train it, but it’s highly unlikely with a novice handler. The problems for the club, TD, and helper are just too large. If that dog does end up biting someone, you don’t think some reporter out there will connect the club to the dog? Easy. Bad publicity…helper stops getting work, TD starts losing customers, club gets bad press. Never a good thing.

Anyways, I guess I’m part of an IPO club where we tend to accept more people. Just yesterday there was an American dog there. I mean, he’ll never be what a WL or even a GSL is…but he’s doing the work, the handler was happy to learn, and the helper got his $10 for the work. So who cares? My dog was delayed by a whole 5 minutes because of that session?

I guess I just like to see more people get involved with any sport, and if its Schutzhund, that’s even better. I do SDA also. It’s cool, it’s fun. At the end of the day, just more bite work sessions for my dog and more fun for me.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote "yep, he doesn't want to bite. he just wants people to go away. you read him pretty well"

and they do . Smart thing to do . But if they don't , chances are he will , to make it go away. Or he would go away to avoid . 

you have a trainer ?? 
So why not work with them?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

yeah I was just going to ask. where do I take my mutt to? how do I know what I want to do if I can't try anything?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

carmspack said:


> quote "yep, he doesn't want to bite. he just wants people to go away. you read him pretty well"
> 
> and they do . Smart thing to do . But if they don't , chances are he will , to make it go away. Or he would go away to avoid .
> 
> ...


Have you seen this dog do this? Have you evaluated this in person? Or are you just talking based on some posts by a person who has very little experience evaluating dogs?

You also don't have a pedigree to read so you can tear the dog apart through that, so I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion about this dog.

Until you've laid eyes on a dog, seen it react in person, there is ZERO you have to say about what it would do and what it wouldn't do. I know this is something you love doing based on pedigrees...but that's all crap too.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> quote "yep, he doesn't want to bite. he just wants people to go away. you read him pretty well"
> 
> and they do . Smart thing to do . But if they don't , chances are he will , to make it go away. Or he would go away to avoid .
> 
> ...


I'm going there this Sunday. why can't I do both? my trainer is hours away and I can't afford to train every week.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Lala, just go. It will be OK, I promise!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Lala, just go. It will be OK, I promise!


of course I'm going. just wondering what the forum thinks my nervy mutt is suitable for.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

your trainer should have given you some insight into the nature of your dog . Can they not recommend a club, any activity that gets you out into a social group that does training, basic , tracking, agility ?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> your trainer should have given you some insight into the nature of your dog . Can they not recommend a club, any activity that gets you out into a social group that does training, basic , tracking, agility ?


I haven't asked. I'm going this Sunday to ask just that and as a coincidence this came along. he's also a sport competitor.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

lalachka said:


> of course I'm going. just wondering what the forum thinks my nervy mutt is suitable for.


A pet


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> A pet


?? he will be a pet whether he's doing any work or not. 


martem, I just figured out why they don't want subpar dogs joining. because then it's not as elitist anymore if any mutt can do it. you know, pedigree, ddr, I'm cool.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lalachka said:


> ?? he will be a pet whether he's doing any work or not.
> 
> 
> martem, I just figured out why they don't want subpar dogs joining. because then it's not as elitist anymore if any mutt can do it. you know, pedigree, ddr, I'm cool.


Ewwww....DDR dogs in IPO. Not cool.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Ewwww....DDR dogs in IPO. Not cool.


Lol why? I just threw some words together. I was going to add checzh but wasn't sure how to spell it lol. 

Seriously though, I can't understand why I'm getting this reaction. if I have a dog not suitable they will tell me that, won't they? so why is it such a gsd world crime to take an unknown (both pedigree and nerve) dog there? 
I can't come up with a reason.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Like I said…more than likely, they’ll tell you. They’re not going to risk their club, their reputation, over helping a novice handler turn an unfit dog into a Schutzhund dog. It’s not worth the few hundred dollars they’ll get from you to lose their reputation if something bad happens with your dog. 

The person telling you the dog should just be a pet…has 3 posts under their belt. I wouldn’t worry about what they’re saying.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I will post back next week. bad or good. no matter what they say, I have the best dog in the world. I will bite anyone that bothers us so he doesn't need to learn anyway))))))


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I got him evaluated. Nothing special, low to medium drive. This wasn't the club eval, I asked my trainer to do it. 

We couldn't get a reaction out of him. His reactions to people are random. That's why I was hoping for a club. Also my dog is on his best behavior while at the trainer's

He also said the club won't benefit him because of the drives. Not sure I will go. Thinking about it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Actually when he was trying to get him to react I thought he was trying to hide. Trainer said he was neutral. To me it didn't seem that way but he def knows his stuff. More confused than I was before today


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

No reaction, meaning he wouldn't chase what the trainer was using, tug or rag or whatever?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> No reaction, meaning he wouldn't chase what the trainer was using, tug or rag or whatever?


There was two parts. Yes, that was the prey part and I understand that he has low prey. Though I'm a little confused there too. I will record him chasing the ball later on. To me that's most def prey. But I don't care that much about this. 


I'm more concerned with the aggression part. 

I'm going through all this because I want to understand his aggression. He reacts to people sometimes so I asked him to see if we can get him to react so he can hopefully tell me why this happens. 

So he got in our faces and whipped me even lol. To me my dog's reaction didn't look neutral. 

My friend was there with her dog and they also didn't think he was hiding. But I thought he was. Am I crazy or is everyone else is?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

He acts diff when he's there. He's not comfortable and is on his best behavior. We got him to react to a dog because he reacts to any dog and it took one pop to shut him up. It's never that easy when we are alone lol


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

One thing to keep in mind, you've spent all this time teaching him to focus on you and ignore strangers, right? For sure you haven't let him know its ok to chase something presented by a stranger standing if front of him.

If you want to continue, I'd concentrate on the chasing and never mind the other stuff. He needs to learn a lot of things are ok for him to do now.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Omg good point. I go out of my way to teach him t ignore people. 

But what about that neutral stuff. I'd like to understand what sets him off and which reactions are normal. I dint want to correct him unfairly. 

Someone running at him and passing within a foot. Does he have the right to react?
I still won't let him of course,I just won't pop him for it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its too tough to think in terms of normal. When you start talking about nerves, then getting into thresholds, it just bogs down. In general terms, and not everyone will agree with me, they don't have the right to do anything except what I tell them they can, and that includes the freedom when and where to just be a dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Its too tough to think in terms of normal. When you start talking about nerves, then getting into thresholds, it just bogs down. In general terms, and not everyone will agree with me, they don't have the right to do anything except what I tell them they can, and that includes the freedom when and where to just be a dog.


I like this approach. I just have to decide on something and stick with it. Right now I'm confused and change the rules everyday


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

On a diff note, my dog's canines are filed down. It's noticeable like someone noticed it. 
Is it the bones or the tug toys? What am I messing up his teeth with? He's 18 months


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd say the bones. Tugs are generally behind the canines when their biting.


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

I like the person who said"I dont care what anyone says I have best dog ever and will bite anyone......"
Good answer. But yes that always comes up, if you are a good dog owner you, Love, Live with, Grow with, and Learn together, without pain and sorrow hopefully.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

carmspack said:


> quote "yep, he doesn't want to bite. he just wants people to go away. you read him pretty well"
> 
> and they do . Smart thing to do . But if they don't , chances are he will , to make it go away. Or he would go away to avoid .
> 
> ...


 
Isn't this what your training situation discovered ?

quoting your account of it "Actually when he was trying to get him to react I thought he was trying to hide"

The dog wasn't neutral . He went in to avoidance.
He leaps and yaps at random people who for whatever reason disturb him ---- and they go away -- mission accomplished . If they were to continue to advance as your trainer may have trying to engage the dog , bring him out , the dog felt the pressure, shut down and "was trying to hide" which is avoidance.

Your understanding of the dog can be well accomplished with basic training .


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Dog went into avoidance. Probably stared off into space. 

Although some dogs the first time a stranger tries to play with it will go into avoidance because they have been taught to not interact with strangers. I've seen grown dogs and puppies not go for a tug or rag the first time but get more comfortable and are playing the second time around.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> Isn't this what your training situation discovered ?
> 
> quoting your account of it "Actually when he was trying to get him to react I thought he was trying to hide"
> 
> ...


My question was why the trainer wouldn't tell me that. Why tell me he was neutral. I asked him, was it fear? He said no, he was neutral. 
Why not tel me he went into avoidance if he did and I read him right


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I will ask him when I see him next time. No one can tell me why he said what he said. 
I'm wondering who read the dog wrong. It can't be him. But why do I think I saw him trying to hide?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

To quote he said 'no, he was neutral. That's what we are looking for'


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't know.
I don't know your dog . 
I can only go by your accounts and the email that you sent around to different clubs .
I don't know your "trainer" , their experience or talent or their designs. Do they want to remain employed by you? They may tell you something more positive .

"dog men" are few and far apart .
Some can go to every helper seminar there is and still not chance or be enlightened.



Finding good talent is not easy .


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

at the end of the day i would go by what the trainer said because he saw your dog in person and everyone here is just going off descriptions.

at the same time just because someone calls himself a trainer doesnt mean anything. some trainers couldnt tell you the which side is the dogs butt and which side is its mouth.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> I don't know.
> I don't know your dog .
> I can only go by your accounts and the email that you sent around to different clubs .
> I don't know your "trainer" , their experience or talent or their designs. Do they want to remain employed by you? They may tell you something more positive .
> ...


I'm not naming my trainer but you do know and respect him. I need him way more than he needs me. 

I will ask him. I didn't think to ask then, only later as I slept on it I started wondering.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

simba405 said:


> at the end of the day i would go by what the trainer said because he saw your dog in person and everyone here is just going off descriptions.
> 
> at the same time just because someone calls himself a trainer doesnt mean anything. some trainers couldnt tell you the which side is the dogs butt and which side is its mouth.


Not the case here That's why I'm so stuck on this. I went through 6 trainers, I know all about clueless ones and all that. This one knows what he's doing.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Lala, maybe you should start a thread for your boy. I'd read it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Lala, maybe you should start a thread for your boy. I'd read it.


Lol I can talk about him for hours but not sure even you want to read all of it))))))

In two words, he's the best dog ever born lol

I might start s thread when I think of something interesting.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Like I said...be very careful giving up after the first time. Your dog wasn't comfortable, you're expecting something from him that he's never done before. If you're willing to put in the work, I'm sure you'll see more drive come out of him. It's not very rare that an 18 month dog doesn't know what to do with a prey object the first time out. Keep going, give him praise, let him get comfortable in the situation and see what happens.

I also don't like when people say "the club won't be good for him" when they're not part of the club and it's not the club saying it. Plenty of clubs out there accept any and all dogs. If the handler is willing to pay, and willing to put in the work...no reason not to accept a member.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Lol I can talk about him for hours but not sure even you want to read all of it))))))
> 
> In two words, he's the best dog ever born lol
> 
> I might start s thread when I think of something interesting.


I found it really useful to start a thread devoted to my dogs because I kept derailing threads, sometimes by accident. I agree with Max here too. I wouldn't put much stock in a club that didn't accept my dog, flaws and all.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I found it really useful to start a thread devoted to my dogs because I kept derailing threads, sometimes by accident. I agree with Max here too. I wouldn't put much stock in a club that didn't accept my dog, flaws and all.


Yeah, I don't want to keep derailing. I will start a thread and reply there


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