# Dominance over your working line dog.



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Greetings everyone,

I had a long conversation with a friend of mine who participates in Schutzhund with her dog, and she made me quite concerned when she told me that it is not okay to establish a leader/dominant role over your dog, especially a Schutzhund prospect. This concerned me, because I am a firm believer that an excellent dog has an excellent leader. I had full intentions to raise my dog (who I will enjoy Schutzhund with) knowing that I am her pack leader or "Alpha". She said specifically that a working dog has to be dominant in order to preform properly. I just can't bring myself to believe this to be true, it seems very unreasonable to me.

My question to you all, especially seasoned trainers and breeders of working-line German Shepherds, is whether or not you establish dominance over your working dog from day one. Please provide examples if you're willing!

Rest assured that I am well versed in what true, healthy leadership is and what being a tyrant is. 

Thank you in advance!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

The whole "dominance/alpha" thing is highly over-rated IMHO. Raise your dog. Feed your dog. Exercise your dog. Make sure your dog knows and follows the house rules and gets plenty of good training. 

Cesar Millan is making millions of dollars off of "being the pack leader" because most people haven't got the first clue about giving their dog enough exercise, making sure it knows and follows the house rules, and don't do any training. Do those three things and 95% of dogs will acknowledge you as their alpha/leader/emperor/whatever term you want to use. The other 5% of dogs, you don't want. 

The dog certainly doesn't need to be dominant over you to do SchH properly. If he was, he'd be sending you out to bite the decoy. 

Now, there are some very good points to be made about not squashing drives, raising a pushy, confident puppy who's not afraid to put his mouth on people, but I'll let more experienced folks chime in about that.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Firm and fair is how we rule in our house. I think that you CAN kind of crush a dog with overly dominant/alpha type behaviors. Obviously letting the dog "win" in activities (ie tug) is important to building drive and motivation. They need to be happy and excited about working...and if they lose all the time it will be very hard to get those behaviors. But I think working dogs need strong leaders at the same time. If you let them walk all over you, you will get yourself into trouble. 

I guess it comes down to on exactly what context your friend is talking about. I personally don't like the "dominance" idea in general. I am a believer of variations of NILIF. My dog is my partner. I expect certain behaviors, but don't look for some kind of submission from them. I think there is a happy medium.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> The whole "dominance/alpha" thing is highly over-rated IMHO. Raise your dog. Feed your dog. Exercise your dog. Make sure your dog knows and follows the house rules and gets plenty of good training.
> 
> Cesar Millan is making millions of dollars off of "being the pack leader" because most people haven't got the first clue about giving their dog enough exercise, making sure it knows and follows the house rules, and don't do any training. Do those three things and 95% of dogs will acknowledge you as their alpha/leader/emperor/whatever term you want to use. The other 5% of dogs, you don't want.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your contribution! I know of Cesar Millan, but I do not believe entirely in his methods. My own method for training is a mix of many wonderful techniques/methods, and modified from my experience with both dogs and wolves.

The reason I started this thread was because it made me consider what you just mentioned - damaging drives/confidence. I am wondering where that balance is for a Schutzhund prospect. This will be my first time raising a Schutzhund pup.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'll also add that if this is a sport prospect to be very careful with bite inhibition....no corrections....just redirect.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

When I first got Odin at 8 weeks the first club I went to had instructed me not to give him any rules or boundaries at all, and not to worry about obedience.

Needless to say I tweaked it a little bit because first and foremost he's my companion, not strictly a working dog. Like GSDElsa mentioned I just made sure to be both firm and fair when I did need to place limitations, I made sure we had basic house rules and kept OB light and fun. I think we kept a good balance as he was growing up, he likes to go out and work and train and we're not having major power battles either.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I've seen dogs that need to be (attempted to be) dominated, but more dogs that dont... All are SchH dogs


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> I'll also add that if this is a sport prospect to be very careful with bite inhibition....no corrections....just redirect.


Can you possibly give a good example of an appropriate redirect?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

IMO, you should be a good leader and generally make sure you control the resources with your schutzhund dog. And you may not want other people--your vet, your vet techs, your neighbors or strangers to do things that your dog might not appreciate (roll him over and look at his belly, say). You don't want your schutzhund dog looking at you to do every little thing--you want him/her to be confident and fairly free (confident to act on his/her own)--boldness is good and shouldn't be shut down.

So there is some difference between how I would treat my schutzhund dog and, say, my Jack Russell. But that does not mean that I don't think my schutzhund dog shouldn't respect that my resources are my resources (no, you may not steal the ball/tug/sandwich out of my hand, for example).


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

There are some good threads on the biting little monsters around here....

But if he's chewing on your hands, clothes--whatever....take a puppy rag or his favorite toy and encourage him to bite that instead and make it fun and much more interesting than your flesh


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Excellent advice, everyone! If you find time to really go into detail for me, I would really appreciate it. I want to do right by my girl. I want her to be my 24/7 companion, best friend, etc while still being wonderful in Schutzhund. I also wanted to do competitive Obedience in the winter months, as well.

Any advice is greatly, greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

you know what is funny - what with the enormous difference between Sch folks and AKC show people -- I got exactly the same advice from the show people as we hear from the Sch people. "Don't dominate your dog, encourage him/her to be pushy etc. etc. etc. (not so much the bite stuff in the show folks but you get the idea.

The dog has to think he is the king and be VERY confident in himself!

i think it is very ironic that we hear the same from such opposite type dog show people!!!!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

This is a nice article about gaining/having leadership without making a big deal out of it:

yielding


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wild wolf, are you involved in a club? 
When my pup was very young I just worked on our bond and building his confidence. He was always a good pup, so never really had to do any corrections or re-directing. He was biddable and happy, loved to play tug, ball drive was huge. 
House manners are important but over obedience was not encouraged( an example: we took a class and I opted out of the no jumping up on people lesson-though my pup wasn't a jumper like that anyway)
When you do have that strong bond, the pup will look to you for everything-so deferring to you is natural and positive.
I use high value toys for training only, he did get free time with the other dogs and plenty of toys, but his favorites were for us together training. 
Codmaster, I really don't think AKC show people and those involved in SchH are that opposite. You want your dog to engage with you regardless the venue you are training in.
I am training in SchH and am taking private lessons with an AKC obedience trainer who helping me with my handling skills and retrieves. She knows I can't use hand signals but we are meshing very well and my dog and I are growing as a team because of her help.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No I do not establish "dominance" over my dogs since that seems to imply some sort of force against their will. I establish mutual TRUST and RESPECT. My dog and I are a working TEAM, it is not a master/slave relationship.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

codmaster said:


> you know what is funny - what with the enormous difference between Sch folks and AKC show people -- I got exactly the same advice from the show people as we hear from the Sch people. "Don't dominate your dog, encourage him/her to be pushy etc. etc. etc. (not so much the bite stuff in the show folks but you get the idea.
> 
> The dog has to think he is the king and be VERY confident in himself!
> 
> i think it is very ironic that we hear the same from such opposite type dog show people!!!!


Some of us are in both places. I liked the article in The German Shepherd Quarterly I got today that exhorts the show folks to train and title their dogs to high levels. I haven't been anywhere that it wasn't still dog training, no matter the venue. Many of the principles about dogs are about dogs, not titling areas.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

don't worry about the dog dominace, you being the
alpha issue. train and socializie your dog. both of you
will fit in the pack very nicely. with training and socialize
your dog will listen to you and you'll listen to your dog.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Liesje said:


> No I do not establish "dominance" over my dogs since that seems to imply some sort of force against their will. I establish mutual TRUST and RESPECT. My dog and I are a working TEAM, it is not a master/slave relationship.


When I say dominance I do not mean being a tyrannical slave driver. Dominance and submission is a natural aspect of life in a family group - nearly all mammals use dominance and submission. 

Dominance has become such an "ugly" word for so many people... it used to be a normal term used in animal biology and behaviour.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Wild Wolf said:


> Excellent advice, everyone! If you find time to really go into detail for me, I would really appreciate it. I want to do right by my girl. I want her to be my 24/7 companion, best friend, etc while still being wonderful in Schutzhund. I also wanted to do competitive Obedience in the winter months, as well.!


Basically what you want is a lot of redirection and not very much correction. For example, a lot of people teach bite inhibition by holding the dog's muzzle closed, or ending all interaction when the dog puts their mouth on you, or saying "no," etc. If the goal is SchH, you don't want her learning that it's bad or forbidden to put her mouth on people. So instead of correcting, you always carry a toy and redirect her mouth to that.

Same thing with jumping. You don't bump her in the chest with your knee, you don't say "NO JUMP!", you don't do anything negative to dissuade her from jumping. . . . you teach her something positive (like sit for attention) instead. You play tug with her and let her win. You play with the flirt pole and let her catch the toy and keep it for a bit. 

A lot of people recommend competing in agility instead of obedience for the prospective SchH dog. Competitive obedience needs to be very precise and requires a calmer, less hyped-up state of mind. It also uses a correction to get that level of precision. Agility is more happy fun and positive, as well as encouraging a lot of enthusiasm and drive. Agility builds that "I'm invincible" mindset moreso than competitive obedience.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

My friend has a good page on his website about this. 

LEE CHARLES KELLEY

And here is a video on the subject


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Good information, Fast. So my "because I am the mother" explanation to the kids for my alpha status in the house still stands?

The sooner the dominance idea falls away the better.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

That will work for your kids, with my dogs it's "Because I have thumbs"


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## alaman (May 3, 2006)

The dog should 100% recognize the handler/owner's authority over the dog. If he jumps on someone or mouths someone or does anything the owner doesn't want done, the proper correction should be given to correct the problem.

Doing that has absolutely nothing to do with whether a dog will bite in schutzund, track, run the protection routine with enthusiasm or be great in obedience. It's simply a well mannered dog people enjoy being around. 

As for Milan, phooey.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Interesting. Apart from bite inhibition much of this sounds a lot like my interactions with MyWickedTribe. My philosophy, (borrowing from G Orwell), is that 'All _dogs_ are equal. Some _dogs_ are more equal than others. Cochise (my old Sibe) & I would bump heads as to exactly which 'dog' was most equal. He was given to trickery & mental shenanigans rather than overt aggression so our disagreements were thoroughly enjoyable & risk free. I'd remind him, "Little man, there's one Bitch in this house & you ain't her." He'd grin & agree that ohhh yeah, I was the mean dog, he was the smart dog. I do love a dog with a bit of sass to him who thinks his opinions are worth airing.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

I don't know if this video has been posted before in relation to this topic, and I don't know if this goes along with the "dominance" topic. But in terms of unwanted behaviors in working dogs, I found this on the Leerburg youtube channel.





 
So what I got from it was, no, you don't want to come down like a hammer for the bad things they do, but they are intelligent enough to know the difference between work and home, and the difference between you and the bad guy. So set boundaries and rules for both situations, and the dog will know the difference. 

I know with my non-working dog, she was taught that she was never supposed to bite any of our family. But she knows, without having to be taught anything, that biting us is different than chasing and almost biting the wacko that jumped our fence.

In my opinion, a negative marker with redirection and rewards in fine, as long as you don't get frustrated and angry and overreact to biting or jumping (and other "dominant" behaviors).


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