# wait... she left a ball. in the yard. to obey a recall before I even said a word?



## glowingtoadfly

My intensely drivey little pocket rocket ball obsessed wolfbat dropped her ball and came dashing to me when I opened the back door. This is the girl so obsessed with her ball that she had trouble letting us pick it up eleven months ago when we brought her home. The girl so ball obsessed that losing her ball used to cause mouthing tantrums, who has not mouthed on a walk since January. She has apparently figured out that I want her to come when I open the back door. Apparently her bond has become so strong that she will leave her ball behind. This is the girl who tried to jump off a boat when she dropped her ball in the water and had to be held back.


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## ZoeD1217

That's great!!! It sounds like you're making lots of progress! 

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## glowingtoadfly

She is getting there. I am very proud of her. Thanks!


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## glowingtoadfly

Today she did great on her walk in the woods with her brother. She didn't bark at any dogs, unlike him  She also used to bark like crazy at other dogs so there is another reason to be proud.


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## glowingtoadfly

Today when Skadi was chewing on my blanket, instead of physically moving her, which prompts a resource guarding response, or going to distract her with a treat, I tried putting her in a down stay each time she felt the urge to destroy and guard. It worked. She was able to be distracted from chewing on the blanket to listen to a command. Even when her brother Grim moved towards her when she had the blanket and prompted a growl, the down stay worked to stop her from lunging and barking at him. I was very proud of her. I think we will be working more on this command with both of them. I used a ball to reward her for holding the command. Although this object sometimes causes her to resource guard from him, sometimes causing scuffles, I think I am going to keep trying, just continuing to be very careful and cautious about letting the ball become a bone of contention between the two.


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## brembo

2 years old? She's beginning to leave the puppy-brained nonsense behind and be a German Shepherd proper. Stay on top of the obedience and manners, the things these dogs can do when mature and bonded is breathtaking.


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## glowingtoadfly

I hope so! Today she fussed when asked to on our walk, allowed me to cuddle in bed with her (she sometimes has handling issues), and was good with her brother. She did just "miss" playing tug with my husband and make him bleed though, as she sometimes does. She gets overenthused. Grim has become quite the puller, but he is learning heel and bringing his dinner along on our walk helped him. I need to find some higher value treats than the ones we have to make sure I have his attention when bicycles and other dogs go by. He's nine months, getting bigger, and is a lunger when he wants to chase.


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## SuperG

From a cheesy TV show when I was a wee lad...." I love it when a plan comes together "

I appreciate your excitement....it is so nice when the bond grows.


SuperG


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## glowingtoadfly

I'm just hoping he outgrows barking and lunging at other dogs with training the way she did. She used to bark and lunge every single time we saw another dog, then go belly down when she met them, wanting to play. I worked on focus with lots of liver sausage and freeze dried chicken and eventually she became much better. He is more of the bark, lunge, and snap when the other dog gets too close type so we are very careful with him. I'm wondering if at nine months he could be going through a fear period. His interest in bicycles is much like her interest in squirrels- a deep desire to chase.


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## glowingtoadfly

Bringing Grim's dinner along on our walk this evening made a huge improvement in his focus. I practiced calling his name and feeding him each time he looked at me, and the " fuss" command (heel). At the beginning he had his nose planted in the hand that held the treat and would heel for ten steps. By the end of the walk we were working on walking next to me while looking at me and he did it a few times. His pulling improved too. One thing we will need to work on is that he is reactive to bicycles-he pulled me towards a bicyclist and growled while lunging. I was able to pull him away, but from now on, my husband and Skadi will be the ones walking next to the bike trail, and I will need some higher value treats. He was able to look at me in expectation of a treat a few times when he saw a bicyclist, so he is beginning to associate bikes with "checking in" with me. It can't happen fast enough, so more focus work for Grim. Skadi did really well, but then again, she has been doing well on walks for months.:wub:


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## glowingtoadfly

Thanks, Super G! I agree, bonding is great.


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## glowingtoadfly

Tonight's walk went pretty well, with two mild setbacks. We hike them on the nature trails near the river by our house sometimes, and sometimes on the bike trails. Tonight we chose the nature trails, because although we picked up a tick a few days ago, both dogs have their tick medicine now. Grim, again, did very well with loose leash walking and was able to stop pulling and walk at my side when directed while on the trails. We ran into five cops on bicycles asking a person, possibly a vagrant, for some ID. The trails are quite narrow and Grim's reaction to bikes was discussed in my previous posts- intense interest while they are moving, possibly a play growl due to the bike putting him in prey drive, possibly reactivity. I pulled out my treats and directed him to "fuss" through the group of people. He was able to keep his nose planted in the palm of my hand as we walked, and although he pulled away to look at the people once, he was able to be redirected to the treat with a command. Skadi did well too, although just before this she decided to bite Grim's leash and growl, then take Andrew's hand in her mouth. We redirected her successfully onto a ball, which she happily carried home. That is the first time that has been neccesary in months. Grim completely blew me off and pulled as hard as he could to get to a small dog across the street though. I need some liver sausage or freeze dried beef...EDIT! Just now, she obeyed a recall into the house from a fascinating rough and tumble play session with her brother... And I didn't even have a treat or ball in my hand. When he first came home, I had posted that she mouthed me when I tried to break up a play session and bring her inside. I started always feeding them treats upon coming inside, and she is doing better!


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## glowingtoadfly

Due to a long day at work for me, my husband took just Grim for a walk. He noticed that Grim is much better behaved without Skadi there ( less pulling and barking at other dogs) and seems to stick close by and not pull. I have noticed the same thing- her presence seems to inspire him to bark and react. His presence inspires her to want to take walks instead of begging to come home and play ball or tug though. Hmmm.. Maybe briefer walks with higher value treats when they are together.


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## glowingtoadfly

Today we took the dogs out together. Halfway through the walk I clipped both leash attachments to the front clip of Grim's freedom harness. He didn't pull and started offering more heeling behaviors, and he was easier to control. I wish I would have tried that before. Three times, he saw a bicycle, thought about lunging, then refocused on the treat in my hand and sat for me. Skadi had no mouthing incidents on the walk and did not need to be redirected to her ball once despite the fact that we walked past one of her favorite places for offleash fetch, but didn't go. Hand shyness has been a mixed experience lately. Affectionate and soliciting of petting one minute when she is standing, grumbly and growly when she is lying down. This weekend she allowed and solicited some lying down cuddles. Today, she lay down with her body touching me and growled and took my hand in her mouth when I petted her in one place, yet allowed me to briefly rest my hand at the base of her tail and give her a scritch. More clicker training for hand shyness, I have been slacking lately...


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## glowingtoadfly

Today, we were able to walk much longer with Grim and Skadi because he can't pull with both leash attachments clipped to the front of his freedom harness.( big thank you to our behaviorist for suggesting this equipment- while Skadi could not tolerate the harness, Grim does very well on it) (Skadi does fine with a thunder leash) I was beginning to lose my patience with his pulling because while he was picking up heeling for treats fast, by the time we were halfway along on our hike, I had almost run out of treats to redirect him from pulling to a heel or loose leash. Then I would have barely anything left for the last half of our hike. Today we were able to walk them far enough to tire them both and still have enough food for the entire journey. Each time he looked back at me of his own volition, I marked it with "yes", if I couldn't reach my clicker, and rewarded him generously. Each time he didn't strain against the harness and walked with a loose leash, he was marked and rewarded. Each time he turned around, looked at me, and sat, he was marked and rewarded. Grim is starting to become a better trained dog. Skadi mouthed Andrew before our walk. She had been crated for a long time because Wednesdays are my long day at work and I do not trust anyone with my mouthy girl. He stepped on her leash and she stopped and was able to walk with no mouthing after that. Huge thanks to our behaviorist for this technique. Now both dogs are tired and happy, Skadi on the living room floor, and Grim on the bed beside me. A goose hissed at us on our river hike and both dogs wanted to chase, but we met no other animals besides that, and it was lovely. I blame the threat of rain.


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## glowingtoadfly

Today, we took them to schutzhund training. Skadi only growled once at the helper, and he touched her head while she was tugging a few times. This is huge progress. The first few times she growled each time she was handled while tugging. Our work at home of handling her while we are playing ball or tug with her until her growls subside is starting to pay off. Grim is nine months old and is barking and lunging at strangers sometimes. We were apprehensive about allowing him to train at all, because recently this has intensified due to the nine month fear period. We were able to socialize him a bit and get some good advice on how to handle it when he shows this behavior. (Don't speak to him while he is barking to tell him it is ok as this rewards the fearful behavior, walk him past the object or person causing the fear, have two leashes on him and have a willing helpful friend walk him with me if possible) The helper walked him around the field away from me and he did fine. He was able to tug but was just a bit more hesitant.


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## glowingtoadfly

....and Skadi laid in my lap in the backseat on the car ride home with only one growl and gentle taking of my hand in her mouth when I petted her. She actually laid in my lap and let me put my arm around her in the close quarters of the backseat with another dog. This is the girl who would not allow any touching from me in the backseat of the car in the first months after we brought her home, who had to ride in the backseat alone while my parent's lab had to be put in the front seat because she was snapping and growling aggressively. She rides nicely with her brother and seeks out affection from me now. I am very proud of her.


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## glowingtoadfly

To work on Grim's reactivity to strangers and strange dogs, pulling, and lunging at bicycles, I decided to walk him back and forth in front of the house and work on focus and heeling, rather than take long hikes with lots to react to. I brought his dinner and a clicker out and he was so focused on me that he didn't even notice a bicycle going by. We worked on fetch and recall in the backyard too. He has an ambling fetch style that is very different from lightning fast, excited Skadi. He waits for the ball to stop and then trots over to it, picks it up, and trots back to me.


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi took a long hike alone with me to a pet store and did beautifully. No mouthing, and she was very well behaved. She loved the pet store so much she didn't want to leave. Grim is still in the fear period. I took him to a bench outside of a local store and we worked on focus while people walked by. The high value treats helped. He barked and lunged at a girl on the walk home though. We will keep working on it.


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## glowingtoadfly

Hooray! I bit the bullet after weeks of training in front of the house and the open pantry and took Grim on a socialization hike to a nearby pet store. I might add that we walked on a bike, dog, jogger, and family crowded bike trail. He only reacted once to another dog at the beginning of our hike and quickly got used to the crowd on the trail. I brought his dinner along and heavily rewarded focus and no reactions. He did great in the store, ignoring a poodle that barked at him, although he was a bit shy and didn't want to go up to the register at first, I adopted a "nothing to see here " attitude and he was a model citizen. We will definitely try it again.


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## glowingtoadfly

Pictures of my beautiful babies.


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## ZoeD1217

They are both very beautiful! 

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## glowingtoadfly

Thanks! How is Zoe?


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi and Grim found a nest of baby bunnies. I think the bunnies are uninjured, but they are going to the wildlife center at the humane society anyway. Needless to say, there was a lot of squeaking, chasing, and mouthing of the unlucky bunnies. I had to drag Skadi inside and bribe them both with cheese.


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## ZoeD1217

glowingtoadfly said:


> Thanks! How is Zoe?


Zoe is a big ol brat  I saved up for private lessons. Now just to find time to do them. 

I'm fairly certain Zoe would squish baby bunnies. They sure are cute! 

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## glowingtoadfly

Grim was galumphing about with a baby bunny in his jaws while Skadi kept flipping another one over to hear it squeak. One of them dragged most of the bunnies out of the nest and put them in the neighbor's window well for fun. I ran inside to get the cheese. We were playing with the flirt pole when it happened and I noticed that neither dog was chasing it anymore....


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi recently chipped her tooth on a table at an outdoor coffee shop, spat a chunk of tooth out, grimaced, then begged to play ball again.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Good girl!


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## My2shepherds

On the subject of playing ball I have a 4 month old that loves to play basketball with my boys. She will wait for them to shoot let the ball bounce once and them come up under it to bite at it and send it bouncing again..Well not too long ago she tried this and the ball got wedged in her mouth wide open.... now if you can picture a pup with a basketball (fully inflated) stuck in her mouth....she started whinning of course so I held her still and noticed that her fangs were caught in the ball.. I told my youngest son (12 yrs old and more than a little naive) to go get me a knife (figuring my only option was to burst the ball) He immediately has tears in his eyes and says "What are you going to do to her!!????" (like I said..... naive) By the time he got the knife and got back to me she had dislodged the ball herself but very slightly chipped the tip of a fang...:laugh:


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## glowingtoadfly

I have a feeling we will have quite the collection of ball related stories...The little spaz gets the funniest look in her eye when she sees one. Soft, loving, yet absolutely intent.


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## My2shepherds

They do kind of go into a "zone" when they see a ball in your hand... It would be hilarious to know what was going on in their minds...


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## glowingtoadfly

Probably, for Skadi, similar to a hormonal teenager seeing the object of their desire, a crystal meth user, or a starving person seeing food for the first time in days, judging by her expression.


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## My2shepherds

I owe you a big thanks... I have been having trouble getting my Athena to look at the phone long enough to get pics.... don't know why I did not think of it before but using a ball to get her attention would be perfect because she immediately downs and stays without command until I throw it.


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## glowingtoadfly

At least you know what motivates her!


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## ApselBear

****Weak stomachs, read nothing more here.

We used to have a border collie named Jag that was an ace at finding baby bunnies and young bunnies. He loved playing with them. Wouldn't kill them though while he was playing with them, but, the second we would try to get them away from him, he'd snap them in two. Quite a learning experience as a little kid...


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi and Grim have been hunting for bunny fun all day. Sniffing where the nest used to be with excited and disappointed faces. The wildlife person at the humane society said that the bunnies were a little thin, but unharmed superficially...


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## glowingtoadfly

We are trying prongs on Grim and Skadi. Let the I-told-you -so's commence...I do not feel great about using corrections. I must say, however, that Grim was able to stop barking at my dad and quickly became friendly after I corrected him. This video describes my feelings about it, and about the woman who saw me correcting Grim for being reactive last night and told me with fanatical and judgemental eyes to watch the dog whisperer...


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## glowingtoadfly

DaniFani asked me to elucidate my reasons for trying a prong collar after being so against them, so here is my answer..My reasons for using a prong are simply that I want to be able to tell Skadi that she can't be nippy anymore, and I want Grim to understand that he is not allowed to bark at visitors anymore. I want to extinguish the biting especially. Skadi's attitude has been much less sassy, and Grim was able to meet family members and after initial barking, he warmed up and was able to solicit treats and affection. Pulling on leash is also at a record low for both dogs. I wish I would have told that woman where to go however.. I still, unlike Cesar, allow my dogs to sniff and explore ahead of me without believing the wish for freedom is a bid for dominance.


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## DaniFani

I don't think you are going to get an "I told you so" from anyone around here. I think most said, "if you can do it, great! However, if you can't there are LOTS of other tools in the toolchest." The defensiveness of tools always seems to come when those that use them are accused of not be connected to their dogs, being abusive, or bad handler (usually stated as, "too lazy to do it the 'right way'").

I'm so glad it's working for you. *Anything* that allows a handler to obtain better communication with their dog is great. If that's achieved without a prong/ecollar etc, great!! Just important the dog is happy, behaves, and the owner/dog relationship is good.

I think you would do yourself and your dogs a service by trying to remove such emotion and guilt from a tool. You've used it....the dog's haven't cowered, shut down, peed themselves....they don't look at you as a "bad person" or "less of a handler." They probably come running and are just as excited to see you as before. 

Read your dogs appropriately, comparing putting a prong on as the equivalent to chaining them to the floor of a cave, in the dark, and putting a big block over the entrance is a bit extreme (especially considering the REASON the dragons are locked up is because *they killed a 3 year old human child*, I tend to feel more sympathy for the parent of the dead toddler in this fictional situation than the lady that has to contain her dragons...).

Anyway, look forward to the updates! You still training at club?


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## Gwenhwyfair

I didn't read anyone say "I told you so" either. 

I wished you well and said I respected your ability to shift gears.

To add to Dani's points it has been my experience with horses and now dogs that it is not good to layer negative feelings into your training. Whether it's guilt, frustration, anger or anything in that vein it's best to set that aside. When I start to feel those emotions I will stop training, put the horse up, take the dog home. 

Really it's not anything to feel guilty about. Training is a journey and you learn as you go along. We all have tried things that didn't work and had to learn what worked and what didn't for each animal we train.


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## lalachka

horses need to be trained? how's that done?


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> horses need to be trained? how's that done?


Lol why would you think horses wouldn't need to be trained? It's extremely involved, time consuming, expensive, and involves alllll kinds of tools and techniques. Some of the "compulsion" or "pressure" I've seen horse people use on their horses would make some around here cry lol.

Gwen, I was doing some trail riding with a friend (her horses not mine)...one of my first experiences in my late teens with horses that weren't "rented" by the hour lol. I was talking to her and her horse was standing behind her. The horse nipped her shoulder, and without missing a beat in our conversation she turned around and PUNCHED that horse in the nose. Then kept going with our conversation like it didn't happen. She noticed the look on my face and said, "you ever been bit by a horse...that s*** hurts like heck, I don't put up with it." lol!!! The horse barely moved from the punch. I was stunned lol.


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## glowingtoadfly

Nobody said "I told you so". I was bracing myself for it though. The video was intended to kind of make fun of my own melodramatic feelings about the prong as well as illustrate them.. Especially with a dog who many find intimidating and another who appears cute but bites... Guess that didn't come across. I thought the cheesy music would give it away. Yes, training my dogs positive-only was something I was very invested in, and of course I am still using positive reinforcement. I am getting over the feeling that I have failed my dogs somehow by trying this.


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## Blitzkrieg1

That happened to me the bruise on my chest was quite interesting. When the animal is 800lbs why screw around?


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Lol why would you think horses wouldn't need to be trained? It's extremely involved, time consuming, expensive, and involves alllll kinds of tools and techniques. Some of the "compulsion" or "pressure" I've seen horse people use on their horses would make some around here cry lol.
> 
> Gwen, I was doing some trail riding with a friend (her horses not mine)...one of my first experiences in my late teens with horses that weren't "rented" by the hour lol. I was talking to her and her horse was standing behind her. The horse nipped her shoulder, and without missing a beat in our conversation she turned around and PUNCHED that horse in the nose. Then kept going with our conversation like it didn't happen. She noticed the look on my face and said, "you ever been bit by a horse...that s*** hurts like heck, I don't put up with it." lol!!! The horse barely moved from the punch. I was stunned lol.


 
lol i don't know why, it just never occured to me. i figured they're born knowing how to ride people)))))

lucky you and everyone that haas a horse or gets to ride one)))))

lol and nice story

i don't want to derail a thread but i'm interested to hear about the methods and compulsion. i know i can google))))) but i'd rather ask and talk about it


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## glowingtoadfly

I don't mind talking about horses... Yes, Dani, we go to a small gathering of diehard folks on a farm in WI. I'm sure they will be pretty surprised when we show up with prongs. They are aware of how I felt.


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## DaniFani

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> *That happened to me the bruise on my chest was quite interesting.* When the animal is 800lbs why screw around?


If you just read this part and pause it sounds like you are saying you bit someone on the shoulder and got punched in the chest. Hahaha


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## DaniFani

glowingtoadfly said:


> Nobody said "I told you so". I was bracing myself for it though. The video was intended to kind of make fun of my own melodramatic feelings about the prong as well as illustrate them.. Especially with a dog who many find intimidating and another who appears cute but bites... Guess that didn't come across. I thought the cheesy music would give it away. Yes, training my dogs positive-only was something I was very invested in, and of course I am still using positive reinforcement. I am getting over the feeling that I have failed my dogs somehow by trying this.


Oooh, well in that case it's quite funny and I retract my sentiment about the emotion and all that.


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## glowingtoadfly

Yes, just imagine Sarah MacLaughlan as Skadi is demand barking and growling while nipping. She immediately lets go when I correct her. It's amazing.


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## glowingtoadfly

I'm so emotional that I get metafeelings, or feelings about feelings. I'm aware of this and know that it's pretty ridiculous.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I don't know if it's meta feelings but I felt crumby for awhile when going to the prong too.

Like you said...it fades after time. Usually when you see that it's actually making a positive difference with your dogs. 

It does seem counter intuitive but my relationship with Smitty actually got much better when I learned how to properly use a prong collar.

I rarely use it anymore.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh yeah, there's a lot to training horses. There's also all the controversy about the different methods and trainers too. Just like with the dogs.

If you think about it, a metal bit in the horses mouth is sort of like a prong. When you pull on the reins it causes the bit to move in the horse's mouth applying pressure to different pressure points. There are many different kinds of bits, some that apply more pressure and on different points of the horses mouth. As with dogs some horses are 'softer' and some 'harder'. 

The entire bridle applies pressure at different points as well (again depending on the type of bridle and bit) but usually when you pull back on the reins it also causes some pressure where the bridle leather goes over the top of their head behind the ears (the poll). 

It's not usually painful for the horse (unless the rider is being very harsh or rough), but it's a discomfort a sort of physical compulsion.

There's just volumes and volumes of books and knowledge and different tools and techniques for training horses.



lalachka said:


> lol i don't know why, it just never occured to me. i figured they're born knowing how to ride people)))))
> 
> lucky you and everyone that haas a horse or gets to ride one)))))
> 
> lol and nice story
> 
> i don't want to derail a thread but i'm interested to hear about the methods and compulsion. i know i can google))))) but i'd rather ask and talk about it


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yes, they can bite HARD. Been there, felt it! LOL!

I always tried to use gentler methods but if you've got 1000 pounds of onery horse rearing or kicking endangering itself and people around it, sometimes you gotta get them in line.

The funniest thing I had happen though, was the horse that trained itself in a way.

My trainer was boarding her young warmblood mare at my place years ago. The goofy mare would rear almost every time I went into the stall with her. That's dangerous, she or I could get really hurt.

My barn was a shed row style and the roof line slanted slightly down towards the back to shed rain water. Usually plenty of height for the average non-rearing, average height horse (she being a warmblood was growing to be a big mare). Anyhoo I didn't know what to do, really didn't want to do anything to my trainer's horse. One day I went in the stall with her and she happened to be toward the back, where the roof slanted slightly. She decided to put some extra oommpphh in her rear that day, went way up and managed to smack her head good on a rafter right above her. 

She dropped down, startled, looking at me wondering how 'I' had done that to her. LOL! She never reared in the stall again. 

I called my trainer immediately and told her what happened, worried for the mare and my trainer busted out laughing. 





DaniFani said:


> Lol why would you think horses wouldn't need to be trained? It's extremely involved, time consuming, expensive, and involves alllll kinds of tools and techniques. Some of the "compulsion" or "pressure" I've seen horse people use on their horses would make some around here cry lol.
> 
> Gwen, I was doing some trail riding with a friend (her horses not mine)...one of my first experiences in my late teens with horses that weren't "rented" by the hour lol. I was talking to her and her horse was standing behind her. The horse nipped her shoulder, and without missing a beat in our conversation she turned around and PUNCHED that horse in the nose. Then kept going with our conversation like it didn't happen. She noticed the look on my face and said, "you ever been bit by a horse...that s*** hurts like heck, I don't put up with it." lol!!! The horse barely moved from the punch. I was stunned lol.


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## lalachka

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oh yeah, there's a lot to training horses. There's also all the controversy about the different methods and trainers too. Just like with the dogs.
> 
> If you think about it, a metal bit in the horses mouth is sort of like a prong. When you pull on the reins it causes the bit to move in the horse's mouth applying pressure to different pressure points. There are many different kinds of bits, some that apply more pressure and on different points of the horses mouth. As with dogs some horses are 'softer' and some 'harder'.
> 
> The entire bridle applies pressure at different points as well (again depending on the type of bridle and bit) but usually when you pull back on the reins it also causes some pressure where the bridle leather goes over the top of their head behind the ears (the poll).
> 
> It's not usually painful for the horse (unless the rider is being very harsh or rough), but it's a discomfort a sort of physical compulsion.
> 
> There's just volumes and volumes of books and knowledge and different tools and techniques for training horses.



This is fascinating)))) I don't know half the words but it's still so interesting)))

I never knew there was metal in their mouse. I was obsessed with horses as a child, asked my mom to give birth to a horsie and then it'd live on our 1 ft by 3 ft balcony on the 9th floor. 

Anyway. So yeah. I'm sure there are many arguments about training horses as well)))))


I'm jealous of everyone that has access to a horse


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## Blitzkrieg1

I have aspirations of getting involved in the sport of kings...its the next logical step from ipo..lol.


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## glowingtoadfly

I was obsessed with horses as a child. Now I just want Grim to stop being scared of scooters parked on the sidewalk. He is doing well. He was able to eat some cow organs from the seat of the feared object. He has been doing well with LAT with strangers. Skadi has chosen to be Andrew's dog. She looks at him when I give her a command sometimes. Grim prefers to be next to me at all times. He has a touch of SA, and cries whenever I walk away from him when he is crated.


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## glowingtoadfly

Maybe when I am retired I will have time for horses. Right now, two young shepherds have my full attention. I was wondering, with Grim's slight shyness and reactivity, is it OK to continue IPO with him? I have read that anything that builds confidence for a shy dog is good. My husband is skeptical that schutzhund training is for Grim, as he has appeared inhibited by his shyness at the last few practices. I am convinced that he will grow out of it, because he didn't appear to be this shy or reactive at first. I think he is going through a fear period and was under socialized at his first home. He chases the flirt pole and his toys at home, but at practice he appears much more inhibited. I think going to practice socializes him more, my husband worries that it stresses him out too much and he doesn't have enough drive. I think he has drive, he just wasn't given enough attention as a puppy...


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## DaniFani

glowingtoadfly said:


> Maybe when I am retired I will have time for horses. Right now, two young shepherds have my full attention. I was wondering, with Grim's slight shyness and reactivity, is it OK to continue IPO with him? I have read that anything that builds confidence for a shy dog is good. My husband is skeptical that schutzhund training is for Grim, as he has appeared inhibited by his shyness at the last few practices. I am convinced that he will grow out of it, because he didn't appear to be this shy or reactive at first. I think he is going through a fear period and was under socialized at his first home. He chases the flirt pole and his toys at home, but at practice he appears much more inhibited. I think going to practice socializes him more, my husband worries that it stresses him out too much and he doesn't have enough drive. I think he has drive, he just wasn't given enough attention as a puppy...


Honestly, I think you need to act like you don't know this dog's past. I think, from reading your posts, you are so consumed with what happened to them before they came to you. It's getting in the way of you training your dogs. Every action of the dog has to be explained, dissected, and discussed and it usually comes down to "he's this way because he's in a fear period and he was under socialized." 

I think it's two things. The dog is just genetically on the lower threshold more reactive/nervy side and he has learned he can get away with murder with you guys and does as he pleases (barks at everything). I don't think his past has much at all to do with his current state. Especially if it was a lack of socializing...to me that seems one of the easiest things for genetically stable dogs to bound back from. I see plenty of sport dogs that got very little "socialization" as pups and have little to no issues with environment or new things in it. You describe an extreme fear of bicycles among other things, and something about having him eat food off the seat, etc. To me that's all genetic nerviness, not because he wasn't socialized at a pup. 

It's just who he is. He has learned time and time and time again, through NOTHING happening from the bicycles, that they are nothing to be fearful of, and yet he still is. A genetically stable dog, may be startled by something they've never seen before but once it's apparent there is no threat there, there should be a very quick recovery and no more surprise or startling.

That's why nerves are SO important in working dogs irl. They are going to see things all the time they've never seen before, and they need to be able to adjust quickly and move on.

I think if he's going into avoidance a little and won't really play on the training field, that's genetics. Drive is drive....it's either there or it isn't. Just because he plays in the home doesn't mean there is a high drive of any kind. Just like, just because a dog has a insane obsession to a ball, doesn't mean they are "high drive."

He is barking at other dogs and doing as he pleases, but now is better when there is punishment for that...imo it's him just not understanding the rules. He understands what gets him a reward, not what isn't allowed. It's not surprising that he's starting to listen even from a little pressure of the prong, he needed the clarity of not only what got the reward but what got punished.

So, to answer your question. If you have a good IPO club, I would say absolutely keep going. Obedience can do nothing but good for this dog, he can track, and they can always work him over prey with very little pressure. Stop basing so many decisions on a past that I honestly think has very little to do with the dog you have in front of you. I also think "fear phases" are a self fulfilling prophecy. If they exist I think they are very minute. I think they are kind of an excuse for more reactive/lower threshold/nervy dogs, but that's just my opinion.


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## glowingtoadfly

I wouldn't say that the fear of the scooter was extreme.. He just barked at it a little and quickly recovered. I also think he isn't afraid of bicycles. He lunges at them because he wants to chase them.


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## glowingtoadfly

I also think some of the barking is excitement, not fear. I guess that I didn't know what to make of it when he started barking at everything. My sister in law was just telling me that her collie barks at everything too, but people look at you differently when it is a shepherd.


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## DaniFani

glowingtoadfly said:


> I also think some of the barking is excitement, not fear. I guess that I didn't know what to make of it when he started barking at everything. My sister in law was just telling me that her collie barks at everything too, but people look at you differently when it is a shepherd.


The more I think about it, the more I think he just needs more clarity that chasing and barking aren't allowed. Kind of like the punk, jerk of a teen, that hasn't had any consequences for pushing the envelope over and over. Have you videoed any of the barking/lunging on walks? I'd be curious to see it. I understand if you don't want to post it, but sometimes it helps me to watch back videos of myself training and see things I can't see "in the moment."

It means nothing that the collie barks, it shouldn't be allowed. The prong and the people at your club will really help you out with the communication and teaching him the barking isn't allowed. You'll keep up with the positive reinforcement, but now you can make it clear to him what isn't allowed. 

His drive may wake up a little bit at training. However, just because he isn't super interested in the flirt pole doesn't mean he can't do really well in other areas of the sport. Dogs with lower drives can be more difficult to train in sport, but plenty do it. Just have to find the right motivators.

I look forward to hearing more, the club will help you learn how to communicate properly through the prong. How to properly apply the correct amount of pressure (I doubt it will take much for either dog), and when you should be applying it.


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## mego

If it means anything as sort of comfort, mine lunged and barked at skateboards for a long time but it was all excitement for her. If I took a skateboard in the grass and rolled it at her she wouldn't pay any attention, but the scrape across the concrete got her super excited -- then i realized I used to drag sticks across the ground to make a similar scraping sound when she was a puppy and it would always really excite her. 

A heel command and a prong correction for lunging has taught her to not be so excited about skateboards and now she doesn't even look at them. She was never afraid, but when I THOUGHT it was fear and would click and treat for calm it didn't do anything, it kind of just reinforced that they are really good things to be super excited about lol.


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## glowingtoadfly

It's good to know that I'm not the only one who possibly mistook excitement for fear.


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim didn't lunge at any bicycles today!


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## glowingtoadfly

We actually had a lovely walk. I am beginning to become very fond of the prong collar.


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## ZoeD1217

We have our first private class next Monday and I'm going to ask about a Prong and if it's something that could help with Zoe and her barking and lunging on walks. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## simba405

glowingtoadfly said:


> We actually had a lovely walk. I am beginning to become very fond of the prong collar.


What about all those articles you linked about aversives? What about your hero lady that killed her cat?


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## glowingtoadfly

I am still using positive reinforcement techniques. I haven't abandoned them and they make working with the prong easier because I can give commands of what to do, thus avoiding too many corrections..


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## glowingtoadfly

ZoeD1217 said:


> We have our first private class next Monday and I'm going to ask about a Prong and if it's something that could help with Zoe and her barking and lunging on walks.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I still keep good distance from Grim's human and canine triggers to avoid having to correct him. He was able to walk by many bicycles on the bike trail today without lunging! I also use LAT and counter condition a lot. Today he was able to approach and eat treats from a motorcycle parked on the sidewalk with only a few barks. He was very brave and seemed to take it very much in stride!


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## simba405

So are you using the prong to correct or just as a tool to better control the dog?


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## glowingtoadfly

I correct Skadi for nipping. It works well. I also correct Grim for being reactive if it happens at close range and I need to control him. I also avoid Grim's triggers coming too close to maximize his positive associations with the triggers. The prong has been mostly useful for pulling. I corrected Grim for barking at my dad when they were introduced and soon after Grim was eating treats from my father's hand. My dad was walking him for me, which was impossible before. The same thing happened with my husband's family- my father in law was able to walk him. Grim's body language remained confident during the walk. The one drawback I have noticed is that when both dogs are pulling into the prong they tend to skulk a bit. I dislike the pain induced skulking.


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## simba405

Good for you. Amazing how a dog behaves when it starts to respect you. Still loves you but respects you. 

That lady that killed her cat (honestly don't know her name) isn't as smart as you thought eh?


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## glowingtoadfly

I have nothing against Karen Pryor.. I try to be as positive as possible with my dogs. The prong is really just a little extra impetus for some teenaged working line shepherds to learn how to behave.


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## glowingtoadfly

ZoeD1217 said:


> We have our first private class next Monday and I'm going to ask about a Prong and if it's something that could help with Zoe and her barking and lunging on walks.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's worth trying. I was really scared to try an aversive. I have discovered that a little bit goes a long way, and that I don't feel as awful as I thought.


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## ZoeD1217

glowingtoadfly said:


> It's worth trying. I was really scared to try an aversive. I have discovered that a little bit goes a long way, and that I don't feel as awful as I thought.


I'm not really against using them I just want to make sure I do it right. I feel bad sometimes for not feeling worse about it. If that makes sense. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## glowingtoadfly

I know what you mean...


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## glowingtoadfly

We had a really good walk today. Grim was able to turn away from a dog at close range with no barks, lunges, or growls.. He barked at a flag. He didn't bark at any motorcycles, show any fear of the bus shelter, or bark or growl at anyone.


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi is doing well at schutzhund but her bite needs work.


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## glowingtoadfly

... And Dani- Grim always goes crazy for the flirt pole at practice, just less crazy than for his flirt pole at home. He plays with the bite pillow but he seems inhibited. He didn't know how to play with toys when he came to me.


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## DaniFani

So so happy to hear you are progressing. I really hope you go all the way and title both dogs, at least a BH. I think it would be such a cool accomplishment for everything you've been through and your hard work. We learn so much from our dogs, especially the ones we got before we even thought about being in the sport.


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## glowingtoadfly

I've been told I can be a little melodramatic about my dogs flaws...


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## glowingtoadfly

I've also realized that perhaps Prozac and a behaviorist were not neccesary in Skadi's case. I just had never dealt with shepherds before. Although many of the behaviorists suggestions were absolutely invaluable.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I got a little of a head start growing up on a little farm. From cows, occasional bull, chickens, rabbits, cats, dogs, horses....you learn to take things in stride I suppose.

We all have to go through a learning process and adapt to the different animals and temperaments as well.

It's a journey for all of us and like you I used to be P.O. aversive free and that worked great for some dogs, then I got Smitty and was totally flummoxed by him.

I still use aversive free as much as possible and if it means my results are a little bit slower then o.k. 

I also recognize now that sometimes our dogs, clever creatures that they are, will try to take advantage of us too and you know what, that's unfair to us. We talk about being fair to the dogs which really is important but that's a two way street too. I've been learning the difference between honest misunderstanding and the 'talk to the paw' attitude they sometimes give us.

To a certain extent setting boundaries for these dogs is actually acknowledging their amazing intelligence and abilities to be....little stinkers sometimes.


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## Blanketback

Emily, in my family I'm considered the 'big meanie' because I use a prong. I know how people think of them, and the emotions behind it. But the point I can never get across to them is the importance of losing the negativity that they're holding towards their misbehaving dogs. I'm telling you this so that hopefully you'll forgive yourself for joining us on the dark side, lol. 

But think about it: my dogs have always had the pleasure of a constantly positive life experience. There are always going to be the "GAH!" moments where they're disobedient, but a quick correction and compliance rectifies everything. The trouble, IMO, of avoiding the aversives - and here I think you can relate - is that there's the underlying negativity that the dogs are so in tune with. How does this affect them? If you're _____ (frustrated, angry, resentful, embarrassed, etc, fill in the blank) with your dog then they _will_ know it. I don't think this is fair to them. I think being the 'big meanie' is actually being the kinder owner, since that negativity isn't present. Does that make sense to you?


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi is currently lying in the backyard miserable. The tooth half that she cracked was removed, her ear infection was treated, and her toenails were clipped, all under anesthesia. Poor little girl. Yes, I can see the benefits of clear communication working well with her already. She no longer nips me now that I am correcting her for it. The last thing I wanted to do was have her wear a prong around the house, but my husband and I were at a loss for how to stop the behavior. She is just a very testing, I-do-what-I-want kind of dog.


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## Blanketback

I-do-what-I-want is more of a I-do-what-I-can-get-away-with, IMO. Her nipping is a good example. Since you've put your foot down, she's not doing it because she can't get away with it.  Congrats!


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim didn't bark at any close range humans at training today.


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## glowingtoadfly

How is Skadi more affectionate now? She doesn't seem shut down at all and actually seems happier.


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## David Winners

glowingtoadfly said:


> How is Skadi more affectionate now? She doesn't seem shut down at all and actually seems happier.


It's crazy what a dog having a leader can do for your relationship. 

Ever watch 2 dogs play? They bite the heck out of each other. Far harder than a typical prong correction. They aren't made of egg shells and glass. 

David Winners


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## glowingtoadfly

I am shocked by the difference in her behavior after two weeks.


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## glowingtoadfly

Though I do not think that positive training is without boundaries, or treats dogs as though they are made of glass.


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## David Winners

I guess my point was that good dogs aren't fragile, mentally or physically, and they can take fair punishment workout harming the dog or your relationship. 

David Winners


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## glowingtoadfly

That makes sense.


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## glowingtoadfly

So far, the relationship and bond has actually improved immensely. I am gaining confidence as a handler because of this. I think that the time I spent researching positive training was not wasted and has made the transition easier on the dogs because I am still rewarding them for doing things right, using markers, etc. The engagement and focus and play training we are learning at practice has been really helpful. I think a lot of the problems I have been experiencing are just being a Shepherd inexperienced handler and not my dogs. I have good dogs with quirks, sure, but they are really just high energy...


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## glowingtoadfly

glowingtoadfly said:


> I've also realized that perhaps Prozac and a behaviorist were not neccesary in Skadi's case. I just had never dealt with shepherds before. Although many of the behaviorists suggestions were absolutely invaluable.


This is NOT to say that Prozac is not neccesary in some cases. I just think that in Skadi's case we may have read testing authority as anxiety.


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## Blanketback

I'm really enjoying this thread, and I especially like the honestly. Your revelations about how your techniques are changing, and how this is affecting your relationship, is a great read. Thanks! 

The one thing I have to mention, only because it burns my butt every time I see it in print, is the connection you've made between "...researching positive training was not wasted and has made the transition easier on the dogs because I am still _rewarding them for doing things right_..." is part of training PERIOD, not just something that the PO trainers use exclusively. This drives me nuts!!! This is how we _all_ train!!! To me, this is more PO propaganda to make those of us that use aversives seem like cruel monsters. Sorry Emily, I'm not bashing you personally, but I just have to point this out.


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## glowingtoadfly

I was just saying that I learned a lot, not commenting in any way on all those who use aversives.


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## Blanketback

No, I wasn't clear: I know you weren't commenting on those who use aversives. I was pointing out that you made a connection between rewards and positive training, as if that was a specific technique employed (invented, lmao) by positive trainers. You can't be blamed for this, because _every_ time I read anything by PP/PO/AF/howeveryoucallit trainers, they always equate +P/corrections/aversives/howeveryoucallit training as somehow disregarding rewards entirely, and it's always portrayed in some 'yank & crank' light. This isn't your fault! I can't stand to read most of this stuff because it's so slanted in that way, like some sort of brainwashing, lol. 

I'll quote from William Koehler's 1962 _The Koehler Method of Dog Training_ pg.21:

"There will always be more emphasis and clarity to be had in the contrast between punishment and reward than from the technique of "only good," and if they obey, "still more good." And there is more meaning and awareness of living in a life that know the consequences of both favorable and unfavorable action. So let's not deprive the dog of his privilege of experiencing the consequences of right and wrong, or, more definitely, punishment as well as praise."

See, even Mr. Evil was saying that rewards/praise was an important part of dog training, way back over 50 years ago.  If you mention his name, everyone thinks of harsh severe compulsion though. Well, people who know dogs know what works, and they know what he's talking about. I'm happy for you that you're getting a glimpse of this now too.


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## glowingtoadfly

"Purely Positive?" "Balanced?" Another Perspective | Dog Star Daily
I've posted this article before, but here it is again..


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## David Winners

I think the important thing is that you are progressing with your dog because you have an open mind. 

That's something we can all aspire to. 

David Winners


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## glowingtoadfly

Probably the forums contributed to that, so for that I thank you, and others, Blanket back.


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## Baillif

Keeping an open mind is important to becoming a better dog trainer. There are a lot of things I was told shouldn't be done or couldn't be done for whatever reasons that just turned out to be wildly untrue. Lots of things considered taboo in dog training are because of lack of understanding, fear, and outright ignorance. 

A lot of trainers that are popular are popular not because they are anything special but because they have programs and systems that are easily marketable especially to beginners.

There is no substitute to going out on your own studying the science behind learning theory and training a crap ton of different dogs and going to clinics and watching world class trainers do their thing. You will learn things no books or DVDs or forums can teach you.


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## Blanketback

If I was able to help you at all, then that makes me happy  so thank you for that, Emily!


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## glowingtoadfly

Guess what Baillif? Grim was approached by an offleash Labrador at close range. Of course the Labrador's owner was sitting on her porch yelling "he's friendly!", while my husband and I are replying " well, Grim is not." ( last time Grim was approached by an offleash dog barking, growling, and a light nip ensued and the loose dog went yelping up the trail) Grim didn't bark at all and was able to walk away from the lab. I have been combining LAT with corrections if Grim starts to react for both humans and dogs. I never thought Grim would get better so quickly.


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## martemchik

It's the weekly Saturday morning beatings...you're welcome.


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## Baillif

glowingtoadfly said:


> Guess what Baillif? Grim was approached by an offleash Labrador at close range. Of course the Labrador's owner was sitting on her porch yelling "he's friendly!", while my husband and I are replying " well, Grim is not." ( last time Grim was approached by an offleash dog barking, growling, and a light nip ensued and the loose dog went yelping up the trail) Grim didn't bark at all and was able to walk away from the lab. I have been combining LAT with corrections if Grim starts to react for both humans and dogs. I never thought Grim would get better so quickly.


Positive punishment done timely clearly and correctly in combination with counter conditioning makes things happen very quickly. Leash reactivity should be a 1 week fix at max not a 1 year fix. Its not uncommon to fix in a session or two.


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## glowingtoadfly

I may have spoken too soon about the prong helping Skadi's nipping. Today when I corrected her for it, it just amped her more and made her nip more. Ugh! It could also be the Prozac taper... I guess I spoke too soon about progress.


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## Baillif

If you correct too late in the behavior it can do that. You have to punish at the beginning of the behavior if you punish too late the punishment that has to be used has to be much more intense. At least that's what I suspect happened.

When you don't see a behavior for a while and let your guard down it can creep back up. You should consider a change to e collar.


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## glowingtoadfly

She's fast... I suspected it might be timing.


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## glowingtoadfly

Yeah, she already had my hand in her mouth and was pressing down. I think it was her messed up little way of telling me she had to use the bathroom because I took her straight outside when she wasn't listening and that's one of the first things she took care of. Now she's tired from all her challenging and is taking a nap on the couch.


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi, it's a good thing you're cute. Now stop trying to rule the house you sassy little monster.


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## Baillif

Its not a challenge its just dogs like that can get all stimulated and mouthy or nippy if you havent made it clear that if done uninvited it leads to undesirable (for the dog) outcomes. Make sure you arent causing it unintentionally by petting in a frantic or fast way or talking excitedly to the dog. For some dogs putting a little bit of energy into an interaction is like pouring gas onto a dying fire.


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## glowingtoadfly

She was biting my foot playfully yet painfully ( a puppy habit she is mostly out of) I corrected her for it and she moved onto my arm and hand and the other dog, going from one to the other while snarling and squealing. The other time I reached over to pet her and she nipped.. She only seems to like touching, even gentle slow touching, on her terms and she isn't shy about saying so. Although she was really cuddly this morning and just snuggled into me, she's moody.


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## glowingtoadfly

At training, they told us to work on the bond so my husband is taking a class online in relationship building. Hopefully he can give me some pointers about how to build a better relationship with her.


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## glowingtoadfly

Martemchik is going to scold me for writing about her negative behavior and making her seem worse than she is, I'm sure. She's a lot of dog but her excitable nature makes her really fun to play tug and ball with, and she is so motivated to learn. She just isn't the easiest girl to live with if you skip morning walks. It's probably partially my own fault for not taking her out.


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## glowingtoadfly

I took Skadi to the beach. She tried to have a tantrum when we left.(she hates leaving the beach).. but her prong stopped her from getting out of control and getting mouthy. She also had fun at a coffee shop even though she did try to dig a hole in the gravel patio. She met a puppy and completely charmed my friend from out of town and a few strangers. Then she played ball in a fountain. She walked almost four miles, played fetch in water twice, and still had the energy to chase her brother around the yard when she got home.


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## glowingtoadfly

I could not be happier with how she did today. Tantrum controlled, no mouthing, friendly to everyone.. Here she is with my friend.


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## glowingtoadfly

Baillif, I don't think we are ready to try the ecollar. I want to watch the leerburg relationship games video first and see if I can't work it out with the prong. She is already listening to no much better.


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## glowingtoadfly

What is people's problem with antidepressants? I seriously thought I had a fear aggressive dog. Now I am getting trolled on this board for being honest about my experiences. What gives? Quit trolling me on other people's threads and telling me to get a golden retriever and say what you have to say in my thread, respectfully. End rant.


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## glowingtoadfly

Nobody cared about the fireworks. Grim maybe cocked an ear once. Nice walk today. He completely ignored the neighbors in favor of the kibble mixed with lamb in my treat pouch. The boy is doing well.


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim was able to quietly sit by the side of the nature trail to let another dog pass today. Only one tiny woof. He saw dogs from across the street. No barks. He didn't bark or growl at anyone. In fact, someone remarked on how friendly he seemed. We are still working on taking treats from family members and friends. He was able to eat some lamb and kibble from the ground when my friend put some near her feet, but he barked at her when she offered some from her hand.


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## glowingtoadfly

The issue with lunging at bicycles is completely gone.


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## glowingtoadfly

Video of flirt pole in back yard.


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## glowingtoadfly

martemchik said:


> It's the weekly Saturday morning beatings...you're welcome.


Thanks Max.


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## Steve Strom

Its harder with a buggy whip, but you really want to get that more under control. All that awkward jumping, the way you're taking it, swinging it so high, your pup could get hurt and you may get accidently bit. You want to use it more like in this video. Not everything he's doing, but 1 dog, keep it lower with the dog going forward on any jump. Don't yank it from them, teach them to out it. 





 
There's probably other vids, but that's about the best one I can find right now.


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## glowingtoadfly

Thanks, Steve. At practice, they said I'm not supposed to teach Grim an out yet, just let him have it. I was actually trying to engage him in tug, not yank it from him. ( or her). I was more trying to engage them in play and exercise them than anything. Maybe I will try one at a time.


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## Steve Strom

Yeah, listen to who you're training with. I'm just looking at a video, but I'd really work them one at a time.


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi's out could use some work.. It is Grim who struggles with gripping. Yeah, they love to tug the flirt pole with each other so I can't even get it in the air.


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## Steve Strom

I think the key is a quick rebite.


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## glowingtoadfly

Seeing as working Skadi can get you accidentally nipped even when there isn't another dog around...


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## Steve Strom

Well, the idea is rebite the tug, not you. Lol.


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## glowingtoadfly

She gets very excited to play!


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## glowingtoadfly

...


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## glowingtoadfly

Last night, Skadi saw a bunny, pulled the leash out of my hand, and took off after it. She ran into a car. The emergency vet found no broken bones, and we have seen no signs of internal trauma. She is limping a little and got a shot of methadone last night, and a prescription for Rimadyl. True to form, immediately afterward she took off for her favorite nature trail and had to be lured back to me with a ball. Keep her in your thoughts. Next week we are going up to the cabin, so some low impact swimming should help.


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## glowingtoadfly

No signs of internal bleeding. Just a slight limp on her right side. She was very disappointed to miss out on ball today.


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## glowingtoadfly

She is still hanging in there. No ball until tomorrow. Poor girl!


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## Blanketback

Poor Skadi! I hope she's better soon, that sucks. 

I think you'd be better off playing flirt pole with only one dog at a time too. I also agree about keeping it down on the ground, and out of the air. Think rodent, not bird, lol. I think this might be part of the leaping problems you're having, because the leaping is part of your game - try to remove that. I wish I had a video camera to post my flirt pole sessions, to show you what I mean.

In a nutshell: our game has my guy chasing the "rodent" through the grass, in jerky circles on the ground. When he catches it, he does parade around, and I'd use the "drop it" command to get the game going again. I also taught "back up" so I had a hope in heck of getting it moving again, lol. Now, he's a pro at this, he's only interested in the chase, so once he gets it, he does a tiny lap with it, but drops it on his own, and will jump back from it too, so I can resume the action with it. It's so much fun for both of us! 

Thanks for posting the video, it was fun to watch  I like how you've moved your garden bench up in front of the beautiful flowers, lmao. Yup, you've got to be creative to have GSDs and gardens sharing a yard! I have rocks as large as I can move (small boulders!) in front of my favorites, acting as 'splash pads' if you know what I mean....and to think I was once worried that he wouldn't lift his leg ever...sigh...


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## glowingtoadfly

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Blanket back, for all your comments on me. It is I, Macro Z Gildaf Von Schraderhaus, Queen of Biting Things, Fetcher of Ball. Now I will tell you about mine recent adventures. Before the rude car dared to hit me while I was dashing after that delicious looking rabbit, some young gentleman bowed to my lupine features by howling at me out of a car window, and some young ladies dared to compare my delicate countenance to that of a fox. I am obviously lupine in features. Someone actually dared compare me to a Husky because of my delicate tail. Its curvature is obviously from my DDR/ Czech/ West German heritage, not a lowly sled mutt. I met a very rude female husky once and I told her that I was the Queen of Biting. She sniffed at me, so I pounced her. The Lady pulled me away. Of course. The Lady is always pulling me away from Things of Fun, like my beloved Lake. I am such a tragedy. Now that I am limping on my delicate toes, I think I will go attempt to trounce my irritating half- brother in a rousing game of Snappy Face and dream of the day I can squeeze a ball or flirt pole between my gleaming, sharp teeth, which show I am most certainly the Queen of Biting. Oh, and only The Gentleman is allowed to handle my proportionate, muscled hindquarters. I will live up to my name if The Lady attempts that. I will only deign to be touched by mine own human I have chosen as First Human.


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## glowingtoadfly

My husband is ridiculously proud, of course, that Lady Wolfington has chosen him as the only human allowed to handle her injured leg. She has been oddly affectionate to both of us since the death scare, but apparently she is very much my husband's dog.


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## glowingtoadfly

( and I have nothing against huskies, I love them and would love to have one. Please, no one take the pejorative term sled mutt personally. Skadi, on the other hand, has it in for one particular husky, although she is generally friendly to other dogs when she isn't bickering with her brother)


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## Blanketback

Ah Skadi, thank you for putting paw to keyboard to reply to my post. I'll bet you're a darling girl IRL, and my Prince of Loudness would love you too. Which brings up a point, regarding our human titles: I think you've been led astray. You're not the Queen - Emily is. Your chosen First Human is the King. You fit in there somewhere, either Princess or Lady or whatever you choose, but you'll never be Queen because the throne is taken already. Please be nice to your Queen! She wears her heart on her sleeve, and in all your silly roughousing you could inadvertently puncture it. Do be careful!! In another House, you could be known as Duct Tape Face


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## glowingtoadfly

My name is Mr. Grim. I like to sit in Mommy's lap if she is sitting on the floor and put my giant head in her lap when she is sitting on the couch. When Mommy goes outside I sit by the window and stare. I claw at the doorknob when she goes to the bathroom. I amble around, trying my best to offer as many behaviors for food as I can. Ball is OK, I will sit for it, but I like to lazily catch it in the air and sometimes I miss. Sometimes I lift my leg and sometimes it doesn't make it all the way up. That's OK, I'm Mr. Grim. My nose stays down to the ground on walkies in case I find food. I like to chew on Mommy's shoelaces for attention when she isn't cuddling me. The one thing I don't like is strangers. They might hurt Mommy. Strange dogs are also suspect to me, but Mommy feeds me my favorite thing in the world, kibble, when I see them. Sometimes she even gives me freeze dried beef heart medallions. I don't need to bark anymore but I still look at them, then wrap the leash around Mommy's legs. I used to pretend I was big and scary... Wait... Am I big and scary? I don't know. This conversation with you is making me anxious. I might eat some treats from the ground, but not from your hand. Unless I know you and that you might make me chase the flappy thing. Then I may take treats and even pets from you. I want to find something to sniff and pee on. Why aren't we doing that right now? I wanna do stuff. I've got plans. Fancy plans. I'm going to make them. Scratching myself makes me feel frisky. Being praised? Frisky. Food? Frisky.


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## Blanketback

Oh wow, this is so cool that we get to do this!! Hi!! I'm Remy - nice to meet you, Grim and Skadi!! Gosh, I'm so happy to be here, it's soooo exiciting!! Rawwrl, rawwrl, whoo whoo reeeerch!! I saw your flirt pole game, and I have to admit, I'm jealous!! I want to leap like that too!! Roooo!! And your yard is so tempting!! Rahrwww, I can teach you how to ram your body under that bench and pee on the flowers, YES!! And, we can dig a bunch of holes everywhere so that you guys can get the corner area just for yourselves - that's what happened here!!! Whooooo rah!! Then you'll have so much fun with your own 'diggie spot' mmmmhhrrrr!! Mine has a bunch of things growing around it, supposedly to repel the fleas, whatever they are. That's cool, I hear they're too tiny to chase anyhow. You could come visit!!


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## glowingtoadfly

Hello, young Remy. My idiot half-brother would probably bark at you, but I, Princess of Biting, would adore to make your acquaintance. As long as you don't touch Ball. I enjoy a lively game of Tug with other dogs with Flirt Pole, and Socks, but Ball is off limits. Czech ( ha!) out my Hole, its delicious deepness, the grass I have put inside for eating, the luscious bounds of its possibilities for mud, ah, such joys! I do growl at my half- brother if he tries to dig in its delightful confines whilst my paws are moving like silken mice against the walls, their strong claws belying their delicacy. Yes, we shall frolic upon the grasses of my domain as I teach you the ways of my people. Oh, to scent-roll upon the grass and be chased and chase, to sniff noses as I go belly down in mock submission, to play Snappy Face! I could teach you the joys of yard salad as we tussled, then take you to my beloved River Forest where Squirrels in abundance taunt me from the oaks.


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## Blanketback

Oh, that's a very good start to a diggie, rawrlll! My best one was under the deck, but how was I to know that the wonderful moist, damp earth was supposed to _stay_ there to hold up the deck...snrawwwpphhh!! I'll be nice to Grim, I promise!! Phraowww, I have a GREAT idea: we can hang out someplace to swim, and I won't even look!! Moorrrpp, my water toy!! Yoowwwll!! You guys can do whatever then - I get pretty fixated on that thing, ruff ruff ruff!! But running and tugging and oh my favorite - do you like to chomp necks too??!! PHRAAAAWW!!! Please say yes!!! WROOOO!!!!


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## glowingtoadfly

Yeth, I enjoy a good neck- bite on Thkadi. My lithp cometh out when I'm shy. Plea the don't look at me! Thometimeth I like to go for walkies with other Sheperdth. Although I didn't like the way Rooney looked at Thkadi. Why do Mommy and Daddy giggle and call her Thladu? Ith it becauth she'th tho naughty? I like to call them diggieth too. Thkadi never shares her diggieth with Mithter Grim. Even thnow diggieth. I'm shy of waveth at the beach. I like to thniff at them. But they better not touch me. Waveth are odd. I'm not thcared of motorcycleth anymore though. Thothe make lamb appear. I'm altho not thcared of bus thelters anymore.


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## glowingtoadfly

This morning, I had the most delightful encounter with a small, bejeweled, thrumming creature on the front porch of my favorite place in the world. I longed to grasp the creature in my teeth and I told it so, by snapping at it most fiercely. Now I am jumping into an inland lake in the front yard of this Palace of Forested Excess, my snorts echoing most clamorously as I paddle about. Now I am playing Chase The Grim. We hiked to the Big Lake this morning and I found I didn't need Ball to chase as I found a stick of charming heft to clasp in my jaws. Young Remy, you would adore this place- the smells, the things to bite, the tiny pointy nosed chirping, humming critters! We could grasp them in our jaws, if only we could catch them!


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## glowingtoadfly

All I have to say is, I met a nice man yethterday, he extended hith hand to me, and I thniffed it inthtead of barking. I'm getting uthed to these humans. And on the beach, I chothe to sit on Mommy's lap.


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## Blanketback

Rrrrrfff...I'm not allowed to play chase games unless it's with another dog, how unfair is that??!! BRRRRmmmf! Oh, and it has to be a dog that actually _likes_ that game, or I have to "give it space" mmmrrrrrrmmrrr. Ha, what I did - woooo, I told the neighbor's cat to drink out of the birdbath! Whaa wheee, it did! IT DID! Oh, that was my favorite day, the day I was allowed to save the birds! The best part is that they have 3 cats next door, and they're all the same: big fluffy black cats! RRRReeeeechchh!! You know, they look like all the baby black squirrels rolled into one! Wooof! I don't get to chase them either, phhht, But I CAN tell the cats to get lost!! Yaaaaarrrr, that's excellent fun!! I can't chase our house cat either, so I'm super glad that neighbor cat got caught drinking out of the birdbath!! ROOOOOO!!


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## glowingtoadfly

Oh, I do tho adore it when Thkadi chathes me. I chathe her back too. Now I'm barking at the hummingbirdths. They look tho tathty. I wish one would land in my mouth. I went into the lake with no waveth this morning, and I didn't get thcared of the waveth at the Big Lake.


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## Blanketback

MMMrrrrrr, I like bluejays the best, because they're loud like me!! RRRRWWOOOOO!!


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## glowingtoadfly

A tragedy was averted yesterday, by me, Skadi. My Ball rolled to the edge of the fire pit, but before anyone could get it from me, I rescued it from being horribly scarred. The Gentleman was not pleased that my delicate snoot came so close to the fire, but Ball, I would do anything for you.


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## glowingtoadfly

Also, it was not I, Skadi, who ripped this hole in The Gentleman's shirt. It was my alter-ego, Sladu.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

glowingtoadfly said:


> A tragedy was averted yesterday, by me, Skadi. My Ball rolled to the edge of the fire pit, but before anyone could get it from me, I rescued it from being horribly scarred. The Gentleman was not pleased that my delicate snoot came so close to the fire, but Ball, I would do anything for you.


Skadi your love for ball is truly awe inspiring however the Gentleman who was not pleased appears to care deeply about your snout! fire bad for both ball and you.Its a delicate balance


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## glowingtoadfly

I tease my husband that he is a helicopter dog dad... She does seem to require that level of commitment, jumping off boats, breaking teeth, narrowly avoiding fire.


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim chasing hummingbirds!


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## glowingtoadfly

Here they are! Skadi swims with me. Grim stands on the edge of the deck crying for me to come back.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Love your pictures of Skadi and Grim. I understand the helicopter dad thing Daisy was our wild child for the first 3 ,no wait 5 years.She managed stitches at least three out of her first four summers.


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## Blanketback

What a beautiful spot to take your dogs! Oh, I wish my backyard looked like that.


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## glowingtoadfly

My mother in law keeps a beautiful wildflower garden, with wild orchids. There is even a bat house up here. Hummingbirds are regular visitors. I'm so happy we get to borrow the cabin. It is just a short hike to a state park...


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## Blanketback

I have a bat house too, but so far the bats haven't used it. I put up a birdhouse, and the silly robins made a nest on top of its roof instead, lmao! My honeysuckle vine brings dozens of hummingbirds to the back yard - I bet Grim would love for you to plant one at your place, lol.


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## glowingtoadfly

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Love your pictures of Skadi and Grim. I understand the helicopter dad thing Daisy was our wild child for the first 3 ,no wait 5 years.She managed stitches at least three out of her first four summers.


Oh good, we aren't alone in having to watch constantly.


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## glowingtoadfly

I didn't bring my camera, but today Grim got over his shyness of waves at the beach and spent twenty minutes chasing waves, play barking at them, biting the water, wading around, and generally playing like the puppy he is in Lake Michigan. A big step for a boy who as of a few weeks ago had never seen waves before.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

That's great that Grimm overcame his fear . Probably helped seeing Skadi going swimming w/ you! LOL I wish Lucky would have learned but if we take him to the lake he stands w/ his back to it.


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi in a flower collar.


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim didn't bark at anyone who surprised him around a corner today ( and there were a few). The LAT is working! Here he is in his handsome new collar.


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## glowingtoadfly

They both look like they would rather be outside than inside enjoying their fancy new collars...


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## glowingtoadfly

*Grim reacting to another dog: video*





This is specifically for Dani, who asked me to get video of a reaction. I was able to get video of his reaction to both a dog in the distance and at closer range. I did not do as much to control the reaction as I usually would because I was trying to get a video for feedback.


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## glowingtoadfly

I will accept feedback from anyone on whether they think it is fear, excitement, etc... I said "ow" during the video because after I said "here" he was able to come to me for treats and refocus on me, but he took the treat pretty roughly.


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## mego

kind of hard to tell cuz the camera is shaky. 

I didn't see you correct him. I heard you say no a few times, and "here bud" a few times but didn't see what you did. he was at the end of the leash pulling and the camera was all over -- what specifically did you do?

When you repeated here bud a few times did he even come to you or were you just repeating it?


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## glowingtoadfly

He came to me, took some treats excitedly and roughly and ran back to barking. I didn't correct him, you are right. I normally would have. I really have to work on not repeating commands when I'm stressed


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## mego

Just my personal opinion, I don't think that's extreme fear or anything, just looks like over-excitement/being a butt. He calms down and goes back to walking afterwards. 

My girl sounded a lot worse than that when she was younger and it just took some pretty stiff corrections. I know a lot of people like to give treats for look at that or stuff like that but in a situation like that I don't give treats in the middle of the outburst because he is eating them while hyped up, you might want to treat him while he is calm. I would give treats after he's totally calm or start pumping treats before a reaction like that. Bark bark bark treats bark bark just didn't work for my dog. She's non-reactive now. Just my opinion.


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## glowingtoadfly

That is extremely helpful, thank you! Later in the walk we worked more on heeling when I wasn't trying to videotape him  It's good to know I'm not the only one who has dealt with this.


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## Lucy Dog

Are they wearing their prongs there or just on flat collars? 

Looks like excitement and frustration, combined with no direction other than "no no no no no...", and nothing to focus on other than whatever is getting them excited and barking. The spinning looks like frustration combined with the leash reactivity.

Stop giving so much leash. They should either be walking next to you or slightly behind you. You should be walking together... not them walking you. Get the prong on the dogs and higher up on their necks so it's fitted correctly. Get them something (ball, tug, stick, whatever) for them to focus on other than whatever they're barking at. And pop that collar if they lose focus. Correct the unwanted behavior (prong pop) and reward the good behavior (toy when focusing).


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## glowingtoadfly

They are wearing their prongs. Thank you! Usually, Grim spends about 50 percent of walks working on heel, and the other 50 percent sniffing. My husband allows Skadi to sniff a lot because she doesn't react to other dogs. I couldn't video and work on heel at the same time. Maybe I will get my husband to tape Grim heeling for me.


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## Lucy Dog

You don't have to walk an entire walk in a tight heel. That's going to be boring for both of you. Sniffing is fine as long as it's on the side of me and I'm not being dragged.

Has anyone ever shown you how to properly fit a prong? It should be snug and right behind the ears all the way up the neck. A correction while the dog is 6 feet in front of you really isn't going to accomplish much. A good correction while the dog is right next to you is going to correct the dog. 

Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar

To me, it just looks like these dogs just lack some training and guidance. Nothing that can't be fixed.


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## glowingtoadfly

I actually fitted Grim's collar this way when we first started, and it worked great. I added a link because I thought it was too tight. I will take the link back out, that would probably help him to be less all over the place. My husband usually walks Skadi, and we have actually talked about training her more on walks the way I usually do with Grim ( not shown)


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## Lucy Dog

And get and keep his attention before he has the opportunity to react to something that will potentially set him off. 

Have you laid the ground work for focus? Will he focus on you on command? I use a "look" command with my dogs and it's something I teach before I even teach a sit. He'll need to know what you're asking before you correct him for not doing what you're asking of him.

Keep the dog by your side. If you see another dog coming, get grim's attention on you and only you. His eyes on your eyes in a heel. Get out his favorite tug or anything of high value and reward him for focusing. Praise him and make it fun. Give him a reason to focus on you and only you. Walk by the other dog before he even realizes there's anyone there to even react to. It gets easier with practice and consistency.


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## glowingtoadfly

Focus has definitely been something we are working on, but I will work on it more. He doesn't quite have eye contact while heeling on command yet, but I reward heavily when he does it naturally. I have worked on eye contact during the sit a lot. I will start working more on putting focus on command. The only toy he seems interested in on walks is a ball, which makes Skadi think she is going to play fetch! My husband doesn't really enjoy it when I bring toys on walks for this reason. I think it is something to try though.


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## glowingtoadfly

Today Grim was very good at staying at my side. I just started taking a Dog Trainer Foundations course through the Karen Pryor Academy, and I have been bringing my clicker on walks and heavily rewarding heeling. We walked right by another dog on the other side of the street! Some of the exercises Grim and I have been doing together are about focus and eye contact, so that has been helpful.


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## glowingtoadfly

There is a Dead Thing under my porch. Oh, to drag it out, to scent- roll upon its deliciousness! I while away many an hour attempting to fit beneath the porch-boards so that I may luxuriate in the rat, possum, or bunny which died, probably of starvation rather than face the jaws of I, the Princess of Biting. Grim does not have my magnetized focus upon the delightful whiff of decay, he bumbles about, occasionally gazing where I gaze at the gathering of flies that feast upon my longed-for and now dead captive. When it was alive, I longed to chase it, and now, its delights are even greater, in a different way. I have watched the terrified creature turn to a feast of scents and tastes, and now I am denied its joys. Woe is me. I will gaze longer and smell longer, beneath the porch amidst the broken implements of humans who used to live here. The Gentleman hears my whines of longing but refuses to allow me ingress into the gorgeous kingdom of rot. Ah, to have opposable thumbs so that I may venture into the scented cave, the haven of my Dead Thing. To chase the ghosts of tiny creatures across the yard is my mirage, my dream of Valhalla, in which I kill and they rise again, only to be chased and shaken again and again. I catch glimpses of this Paradise when I chase my flirt pole. One day....


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim bit our drunk neighbor when he got out by accident when the neighbor was in our yard. He left a bloody puncture wound through jeans. Now I will be managing him more carefully for the rest of his life.


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## My2shepherds

Sorry to hear that... is the neighbor a friend or do you have to worry about it being reported?


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## glowingtoadfly

He was nice about it. He said it would get him attention from his lady and laughed it off.


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## My2shepherds

That's a relief to know... Had Grim shown aggression to people before or do you think this was simply circumstantial?


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## glowingtoadfly

I think it had a lot to do with the guy being drunk. He was under socialized as a pup so he is a bit fearful of / reactive to strangers, especially when they reach a hand out to him. He had been doing better on walks, but in the home on his own turf he is very reactive to visitors.


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## My2shepherds

I ask because my youngest female (6 mos) is showing some signs of fearfulness and I am getting concerned about where this could be heading. She has had the same socialization as my 7.5 mo. female who is confident and fearless. I have noticed her "hiding" in her box when outside in the kennel if vehicles pull up in the driveway or going to the back of the kennel for a bit before coming forward to greet guests she never barks or growls at them just avoids...


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## glowingtoadfly

We are currently making appointments with a trainer and a vet behaviorist.


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## My2shepherds

Hopefully that helps him and I know this is not "politically correct" but I can't say I blame him for biting someone who entered your property drunk.. lol


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## glowingtoadfly

That's what everyone has been saying.


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## My2shepherds

Yeah it is a bit of a slippery slope ... I know legally it can create some really bad situations... but if one of my girls were to bite based on the same circumstance I would not be upset with them for protecting us from what they viewed as a potential threat.


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## glowingtoadfly

We were really upset at first, but after it sunk in a bit we realized why he did it. Hopefully the trainer and vet behaviorist can help us help him figure out what is actually a threat.


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## DJEtzel

Wow. I can't believe that people are telling you what he did was ok or understandable. Not even remotely, unless the drunk neighbor was also assualting you? 

I'm glad you are finally getting professional help for your dogs who have some aggression before as well. 

I'm not sure how he "got out on accident" but if that is possible it sounds like he needs to be muzzled, even while indoors, anytime he is out of his crate, because your improper management/training is lucky not to have gotten him killed this time, but won't be so lucky next time.


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## Blanketback

Hey Emily, I'm sorry to hear about Grim's latest adventure. I definitely wouldn't be muzzling him 24/7 just because of this, but I'd be all over whatever door access he has right now, and probably consider a permanent barrier or gate type of thing, to prevent this in the future. My first GSD did something similar (although without puncture wounds - that's much more serious) when our neighbor came home stoned out of his mind one night. Good luck with the professionals.


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## glowingtoadfly

I am in agreement with you, Blanket back. DJ, we are muzzle training him, but I really dislike your tone. I just had to sign some forms about euthanasia through the vet behaviorist, and I am well aware of how serious this is, so hold the judgment, please.


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## Steve Strom

glowingtoadfly said:


> I just had to sign some forms about euthanasia through the vet behaviorist,


What did you sign?


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## DJEtzel

glowingtoadfly said:


> I am in agreement with you, Blanket back. DJ, we are muzzle training him, but I really dislike your tone. I just had to sign some forms about euthanasia through the vet behaviorist, and I am well aware of how serious this is, so hold the judgment, please.


You don't like my tone? 

Gee, I'm sorry. I don't like dogs being put in awful circumstances where they face euthanasia due to improper management or training, especially when training in your area has been offered and you've declined in the past. 

I just hope you're learning from this. I'm in the Milwaukee area occasionally. Let me know if you'd like to get together to work on his behavior. I'd be happy to help if it meant keeping him alive.


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## glowingtoadfly

I had to sign a form releasing the vet behaviorist from any indemnity should the training for aggression not work. It mentioned that the only surefire way to stop aggression forever is to euthanize. I know how serious this is, and I wasn't even the one who accidentally released him into the yard. My husband did, as I was yelling at him to watch out for grim. Also, I have always been open to training so I don't see where the idea came out that I turned down training that was offered? I'd be glad to take you up on that offer of help. PM me if you are in town!


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## DJEtzel

glowingtoadfly said:


> I had to sign a form releasing the vet behaviorist from any indemnity should the training for aggression not work. It mentioned that the only surefire way to stop aggression forever is to euthanize. I know how serious this is, and I wasn't even the one who accidentally released him into the yard. My husband did, as I was yelling at him to watch out for grim. Also, I have always been open to training so I don't see where the idea came out that I turned down training that was offered? I'd be glad to take you up on that offer of help. PM me if you are in town!


I'm in the process of planning a trip or two to the area in the next month or two. I'll let you know when I'm going to be there.


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## glowingtoadfly

Thank you!


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## Steve Strom

I don't know Emily, but that doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in me. I'm an "Expert". "But don't blame me."


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## Steve Strom

> I had to sign a form releasing the vet behaviorist from any indemnity should the training for aggression not work.


I know I'm pretty cynical, but does that inspire confidence in you?


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## glowingtoadfly

Well, there are no promises with aggression. We have an appointment, we'll see how it goes. We haven't been taking him for walks yet. I'm working on counterconditioning him to a muzzle, and my husband got a beware of dog sign for the yard.


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## glowingtoadfly

I know that the vet behaviorist will probably tell us to stop using a prong with Grim. I don't know what I will do. If she tells me to, he will probably go back to a no pull harness. Vet behaviorists are trained very well at what they do.


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## lalachka

glowingtoadfly said:


> Well, there are no promises with aggression. We have an appointment, we'll see how it goes. We haven't been taking him for walks yet. I'm working on counterconditioning him to a muzzle, and my husband got a beware of dog sign for the yard.


Yep there aren't. I know someone that had a biter and I looked for trainers for her and they all say the same thing. No guarantees. 

Actually they can't guarantee it for many reasons. First of all, it's an animal. Never guarantees about anything there. And second, they can't make sure that the owners will follow everything to the letter. A dog will bite in one home and won't in another (this isn't about you, just a general)


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## glowingtoadfly

At a year and two months old, he is still very much a puppy. Hopefully we can get some answers.


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim greeted my in-laws happily and didn't bark at them and took treats from both of them for the first time yesterday. We start work with a trainer on Saturday. In other news, the yard is a mud pit.


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## DJEtzel

glowingtoadfly said:


> Grim greeted my in-laws happily and didn't bark at them and took treats from both of them for the first time yesterday. We start work with a trainer on Saturday. In other news, the yard is a mud pit.


Sounds like correcting him a week or so ago when they were over really helped!!


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## glowingtoadfly

Yeah. He also has a crush on Max's dog Toula. He can be dog reactive but for her he went up with a loose wiggly body and sniffed noses.


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## DJEtzel

glowingtoadfly said:


> Yeah. He also has a crush on Max's dog Toula. He can be dog reactive but for her he went up with a loose wiggly body and sniffed noses.


And you remember the correction he got for reacting to her a few weeks ago? You were concerned he may have a negative association, but it appears that now that he understands the rules and they are very clear, that he is comfortable to act friendly. Great to hear!!


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## glowingtoadfly

I am sitting in a quiet house with both dogs out for the first time in months. Hiring a trainer has helped so much.


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## glowingtoadfly

We are trying tracking for the first time tomorrow!


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## glowingtoadfly

*snappy face*

Snappy Face: Snappy Face - YouTube


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim has a dark side. He loves to fish sharp knives out of the kitchen sink and trot around merrily with the blade sticking out of his mouth. He knows this gets him attention and a treat in trade for the knife.


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## Hineni7

Follows his name 'Grim', lol... And YIKES!ð®


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## glowingtoadfly

Pretty much..


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## glowingtoadfly

Hoarder.


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi cuddling, something I never thought possible when she first came home scared of being touched.


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## glowingtoadfly

Eating a bone the size of her head.


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## glowingtoadfly

*circle track!*

Grim Tracking: http://youtu.be/zih24xMpwEk


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## glowingtoadfly

Today at tracking training, Grim's drive to track was complimented by our instructor. He is going to be started on L-shaped tracks tomorrow night with our trainer. Skadi is still working on straight tracks. Her food drive is less than Grim's so she gets distracted more easily from tracking. We were told by our trainer that she has the drive for schutzhund so she has been working on a bite pillow with the helper twice a week. Grim just goes for obedience and to be socialized. So, with tracking practice once a week, meeting with our trainer once a week, and schutzhund for Skadi twice a week we have been very busy, but the dogs are happy and that is what counts. Grim has been being socialized heavily three times a week at practice in his muzzle, but yesterday and on Thursday night our trainers felt he was ready to take the muzzle off. He has been fine during tracking with the muzzle off for awhile. He has come a long way from his first tracking session when he lunged at the instructor and had to wear a muzzle for awhile. Now it is slowly starting to come off more and more. I'm excited to continue tracking and obedience training with him.


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## glowingtoadfly

I think I'm completely okay with having a dog who will never take photos with Santa, who will never be loose at a family gathering, but is an excellent tracker and snuggler extraordinaire.


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## glowingtoadfly

On an unrelated note, Grim was walking, muzzled, with my parents' lab hound mix, Sebastian ( I have found that the muzzle helps with Grim's dog reactivity). Grim was doing fine and even tried to initiate play with Sebastian. Until he pooped. Sebastian then went over to sniff the poo, and Grim barked and lunged at him in a classic resource guarding response. Grim then went back to walking normally with a loose leash. What a weird boy! " My poop is MY resource!" Grim never does this with Skadi, but she is a dainty lady who hates it when her ball even touches poop.


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## glowingtoadfly

*I done goofed and now I'm covered in fluff and very confused.*

Mommy?


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim was able to pass another dog on the other side of the street while completely focusing on me in a perfect heel yesterday. Of course I was shoveling hotdogs mixed with kibble down his throat at a rapid rate. No barking, no pulling, no crazy rodeo Grim!


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## glowingtoadfly

It has been brought to my attention by my trainer that I was doing a circle track wrong. Our long lead and harness for proper circle tracking are Grim's Christmas present. He also received a water bottle buddy. Skadi got a ring ball and a dog backpack to increase her endurance during bitework. She goes in very intense and gets tired quickly.


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## Steve Strom

How were you doing a circle track wrong?


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## glowingtoadfly

I was told by some of my peers on a day the instructor wasn't there that it was okay to walk a circle track with Grim, and that I didn't need to lay more than one scent pad in the track. Actually, you are supposed to put them on a long line or let them free to discover the circle track on their own, and lay scent pads at 12, 3, 6, and 9 on the circle track and lay hotdog pieces in the toe, instep, and then heel of alternating footsteps so the dog learns to sniff the whole footstep.


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi excited to do bitework: http://youtu.be/G1oRMSP-HSk


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## Steve Strom

Oh, you were walking the track with her. Its not dependent on a harness or collar, but yeah, letting them work on their own and removing what could be conflict with you as the handler. How you approach the track, everything. Too bad Ivan's website doesn't seem to work anymore. His video on it is worth the 20 bucks.


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## glowingtoadfly

I have also noticed a marked decrease in reactivity on walks for Grim and a marked increase in sniffing behaviors since starting tracking. Skadi also sniffs much more on walks. I love tracking so far!


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## Steve Strom

Thats great, you're learning ways to work with your dogs, not fighting against things. Now you'll be able to really enjoy them.


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## glowingtoadfly

Why is it that the dogs bicker much less when they are around me alone, than when my hubby is here? I think Skadi resource guards him.


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim circle tracking properly: http://youtu.be/2_lJA6oCuss

Merry Christmas everyone!


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## glowingtoadfly

My husband and I are sick with a cold and had to go to a family gathering today, so all the dogs got for exercise was a brief track in my grandmother's yard. Both of them have been extremely calm and well behaved all day.


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim doing focus work in his new tracking harness.


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## glowingtoadfly

Well, some of the photos are of focus work. Some are of him obsessing over the animal that lives in our porch.


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## glowingtoadfly

The biting by Miss Skadi has been completely resolved since we hired a trainer. Hooray!


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## glowingtoadfly

We have decided to go with a positive reinforcement trainer for Grim and keep our old trainer for Skadi. He was able to take treats from his trainer's hand today and be off leash with her!


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## glowingtoadfly

*Grim circle tracking*

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BXq2i0VZpd8&feature=em-upload_owner
...


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim had a rough time at the Growl Club today, but we haven't been in a few weeks because of a trip to the cabin and a week off due to the dog flu. He is out of practice, and he struggled today with four other dogs there although he did beautifully yesterday with just one other dog on the walk. His toy drive is increasing from the near- daily flirt pole sessions we have been doing and I taught him rudimentary fetch tonight. He is working on "drop" right now and he actually dropped it near me a few times. I have been working on having him let go of the ball tied to the flirt pole when I grab it and say drop, but tonight he actually fully dropped the ball when we were fetching a few times! We did some obedience for the ball and he was leaping to get it, very excited to perform commands for it, and then he kept dropping the ball in his water dish to splash around with it. We had a lot of fun. He was very disappointed when it was time to put the ball away. I'm thinking of transitioning to a ball on a rope reward on walks, but due to his anxiety, his play is more inhibited on walks and he has a harder time focusing on the toy outside. He does well with food but I think it could help his confidence to loosen up and play tug on walks. Suggestions welcome...


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## Ellimaybel

I don't know, but wouldn't the ball on a rope also be distracting for the other dogs? It seems like it could be and then with the other dog/s eyeing his toy his anxiety could go up? Also might be more difficult for other handlers to keep their dogs calm if they want the ball?


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## glowingtoadfly

He is muzzled for the Growl Club, so that wouldn't work. I meant for just regular walks and socialization in the grocery store parking lot


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## glowingtoadfly

Just wanted to update as Grim had a huge breakthrough today. The neighbor who he bit is a really nice guy and I ended up making friends with him. He really wants Grim to be his buddy. At first, he came on too strong and Grim reacted by barking and crouching ( he was muzzled). Then we went for a walk with lots of hotdogs, and I instructed him to ignore Grim. Grim eventually got comfortable enough to sniff his leg. At the end of the walk he extended a hand to Grim, crouched down, and looked into his eyes while softly calling his name. Grim, instead of reacting aggressively, sniffed his hand! Grim made friends with the guy he bit and I could not be prouder!


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## RZZNSTR

Cool!


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## glowingtoadfly

GRIM ROCKED HIS FIRST SHIFT AT WORK AT THE ANIMAL HOSPITAL WITH ME! From needing to be sedated at the vet to being shy, but charming to my coworker. He did so well!


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