# Whining after walks



## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Kaiser always whines when getting up from lying down after we take our walks, even if it's only for 2 miles at a time. Because of this I've cut down our walks to no more then 2 miles, but he continues to whine after walks. I'm tempted to take him to the vet, but he's fine otherwise. I don't think I'm exercising him too much; 2 miles seems quite tame to me for an 8 mo old GSD. Was wondering if anyone else has experienced this before?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

He may have a bout of Panosteitis, he's at the right age for it. Are you supplementing with vitamins/oils? If not C, E(natural human grade) and salmon oil should be introduced.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I was really hoping it wouldn't be pano.  I thought pano comes and goes? The whining after walks has, I believe, been constant. I do supplement vitamins/glucosamine, though off the top of my head I am not sure if it contains Vit C/E, I will have to check. I have salmon oil, I just hate giving it because it stinks terribly and he wont take capsules (which I also have). Guess I will have to suck it up and give it again.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Pano can last for a few weeks or months. Vitamin C will reduce the length of the bout(it has anti-inflamatory properties) Start with 500 mg and up the dosage over a week to 2000mg split between meals. Try to get natural C with rosehips or citrus bioflavanoids. Many of the multi vitamins don't contain enough to help when needed. E can be given every few days, and only necessary if you are giving a fish oil. My dogs love the salmon oil gelcaps, they eat them as if they are a treat!


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I guess I will have to find some Vit C/E then since right now he gets a multivitamin. He will lick the capsules so they become mushy, but he refuses to eat it. He loves the bottled kind though. Should I be walking even less then 2 miles if it is still causing him to whine?

ETA:
He does love his flirt pole, should I just substitute that instead?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would do some tracking right now for mental exercise and limit his physical. The flirtpole may be worse than walking because he may skid or jump randomly making it worse. You can put the capsule in the back of the mouth by gently blowing on the dogs nostrils/they will open easier. Put it in the back of the throat as far as you can,cup your hands around the muzzle to keep the mouth closed and gently blow again, causing the dog to swallow. I have to do this to Kacie, because she won't eat a C. I also bought a pill crusher at Walmart for about $3 I use it when I feed ground meat.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I guess now would be a good a time to start teaching him to track then... google here I come.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Verivus said:


> Kaiser always whines when getting up from lying down after we take our walks, even if it's only for 2 miles at a time. Because of this I've cut down our walks to no more then 2 miles, but he continues to whine after walks. *I'm tempted to take him to the vet, but he's fine otherwise.* I don't think I'm exercising him too much; 2 miles seems quite tame to me for an 8 mo old GSD. Was wondering if anyone else has experienced this before?


My experience is that these dogs are typically pretty stoic about pain, and if there is this type of whining, there is real pain.

I don't know if you've seen a vet for this before, but I would want a diagnosis of what this is. Pano, HD, ED, tick disease, etc.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Well I took him in today for x-rays. Thank you Lisa for the push. Look at his hips; they made me cry the whole drive home. Even taken from my crappy phone you can see how bad they are. Everytime I look at them I cry. He's only 8 freaking months old.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I am so sorry those hips are such a mess :hugs:

When I saw my girl's hip xrays, I almost fainted I was so sick to my stomach knowing the pain that she must have been in. She had hip surgery at 14 months. 

For now, I would get some joint supplements and start megadosing until you see improvement, while you are evaluating what to do. 

:hugs:


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

The vet said only THR or FHO would help.  The only clinic in town that does it quoted me $5k a hip. I don't even qualify for that much in CareCredit. I could sell everything I have and still not have enough. I am looking into water therapy, but other then that I am at a loss. Some people on PDB suggested putting him down, but I don't want to do that.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

The FHO should be cheaper, but prices are so high everywhere. I don't know about other avenues for funds. 

The supplements will bring some relief. I know, this really sucks.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

*Quality of Life*

Kaiser is now 8 months and has severe HD; he must have a THR or an FHO done on both hips. I cannot afford a THR even with Carecredit when I'm only making $12k a year and it's $5k a hip. I'm waiting on a call back regarding the cost of an FHO. My concern is will he have a good quality of life even after having the FHO done, assuming I can afford it? Will he always be in pain, albeit reduced, even with surgery? What do I do if I can't even afford an FHO? Is it kinder to put him down? I don't know what to do. 


The picture was taken from my phone, but the vet will put it on a disc for me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Do you have a contract with the breeder? Just wondering if they replace the puppy or refund money. If they refund the purchase money, that might go a long ways for the FHO's


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## Veronica1 (Jun 22, 2010)

Panzer also has severe bilateral hip dysplasia. His hip xray is posted in the health section, but I don't know how to link to it.

We got the diagnosis at 18 months, arthritis was also present. THR was not an option for us either.

His FHO was $450, including everything, even after care meds & follow up visit. You should call around for estimates, as the first few vets I called were double that cost. Get recommendations from friends, coworkers, etc and call! 

His quality of life now, about 10 weeks post-op, is great. They said total recovery would take about six months, but after only TWO WEEKS, he was allowed to return to most normal activities. For the first couple of weeks, he had to be leashed outside even in the fenced-in yard, no running allowed. After that, the vet said it was time to start rebuilding the muscle.

It is recommended that we also have the other hip done - they can only do one at a time. If we decide to have the other side FHO'd, it will be in the spring. You don't have the weather concerns we do in Michigan, so your choice of season may not be a factor. We just wanted to avoid recovery during snow/ice.

From our experience, I would absolutely recommend the FHO. HD isn't a death sentence in most cases, especially since your pup is so young. In the meantime, keep him lean as excess weight will make it worse. Pain can be managed with dog aspirin, or veterinary meds, which would buy you a little time to save up.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm sorry about your pup. I was in the same position 24 years ago with my Massie. 

I know the FHO is much less expensive and has been a success for many gsds. 

Do you currently have your dog on supplements? That can help a lot too.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Wow, my heart goes out to you, your dog is only 8 months old and you have had nothing but major health problems, can you call around to University Veterinary Clinics and see if they can offer you a deal as a learning procedure? I feel really bad for you.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I just wanted to add more to my response. Massie was diagnosed with severe bilateral HD at 10 months old. The FHO was not an option I was given so they did another minor surgery that is no longer performed. I then put her on supplements and we did lots of walking, hiking and swimming to help maintain her strength and quality of life. 

When she was 5 I had a THR done on one hip only. Massie lived to be almost 12 years old, travelled all over the U.S. and Canada with me and was a very active dog. She died of something completely unrelated.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Verivus said:


> My concern is will he have a good quality of life even after having the FHO done, assuming I can afford it? Will he always be in pain, albeit reduced, even with surgery? What do I do if I can't even afford an FHO? Is it kinder to put him down? I don't know what to do.


I feel your pain. That x-ray makes MY hips hurt.  If you get the FHO done, he should have a good quality of life and be pretty much pain-free once healed. But if you can't afford the surgery... ugh. That's a tough one and I empathize.

I had to go through the exact same thing with a puppy I owned. Around 12 weeks of age, she went from a bold confident pup to one that was fearful, nervous, and skittish. It got worse after walks. We didn't realize what was going on until we had the x-rays done at 11 months of age and saw severe dysplasia, bone spurs and arthritic changes to the joint. We agonized over what to do as we absolutely could not afford the surgery (they didn't have care credit back then), we were young, and didn't make much money. Eventually the decision was made for euthanasia. I cried for weeks before and after, but I couldn't see letting her go on, obviously in pain, and only getting worse as time went by.

In your case... how is your pup doing now? Does he appear to be in pain? Is he sore after walks? How is his attitude... is he happy? Some dogs have a higher pain tolerance than others, and some dogs remain very stoic even when you'd think they must be suffering. If your dog is happy and doesn't appear to be suffering, you may want to take a wait-and-see attitude. There are supplements that you can give (gluscosamine/chondroitin, fish oil, MSM, vit. C, etc) as well as anti-inflammatory and pain medications. You'll have to severely restrict exercise (which is difficult with an active breed like GSD) and make sure he stays on the lean side. If you have a place where he can swim, that is excellent exercise that does not harm the joints.

Have you talked to the breeder, and do they give a hip guarantee? Perhaps if they give you a partial refund that may help offset the cost of surgery.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Please call around. Not all vets are that expensive. We got a pin inserted into a puppy's hip Monday that was less than 1/2 the cost of the 1st estimate we had received. 
You may find a good vet who just doesn't charge as much.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Wow, $450? I was literally just quoted ~$2500 per FHO, which is better then $5000 but still hard to come up with. I will have to call around and see how much the price varies. Unfortunately there are no vet schools around here.  Freestep, he only seems sore and in pain after walks. Otherwise he seems quite happy, which is why I don't think it is fair to consider euthanasia for him at this point.

ETA:
I do have a contract with the breeder, but it is replacement only and I do not want to send Kaiser back.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Oh,wow,those are bad. I'm so sorry that it wasn't just pano. Did you let Kaiser's breeder know?


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

For what it is worth, I had a 55 pound non-GSD for 13 years with bilaterally severe hip dysplasia and she never had any surgery. I kept her weight down, exercised moderately and supplemented like crazy. Over the years, I used the Glycoflex line of supplements, Nupro Joint supplement, Duralactin, high omega 3 fish oils, home prepared food mix to replace canned food and also gave Tramadol (prescription pain med) if she seemed ouchy. My Piper was stoic with pain and I worked hard to keep her comfortable. Kidney failure took her in the end, not complications of hip dysplasia. She was my first home-bred AKC champion and I cried when I got her OFA report at two years of age. I never saw it in her movement and was blind-sided by the report. She was spayed and lived her 13 years as my beloved pet. 

I currently have a GSD that I rescued/adopted and who was recently diagnosed with bilateral elbow dysplasia. I have not yet looked at his hips. Since he also has mild inflammatory bowel disease, I give him both Dasuquin with MSM and Duralactin Canine every day. No limping and lots of playful attitude. We only do the non-steroidal prescription medications if he is having a flare. At this point, he is comfortable and seems to be holding his own with just supplements and no other medications. 

There are lots of other forum members here with hip dysplasia experience that can help you both.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Jane, I did shoot an email off to the breeder today. I haven't received a response/call yet. I am worried that if I cannot afford the surgery will he still be able to have quality of life? Would he suffer? Or would it be something manageable? But I started another thread for that. sigh.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'll go look for your other thread so that we can keep the joint stuff together there.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

From your thread in health:



WVGSD said:


> For what it is worth, I had a 55 pound non-GSD for 13 years with bilaterally severe hip dysplasia and she never had any surgery. I kept her weight down, exercised moderately and supplemented like crazy. Over the years, I used the Glycoflex line of supplements, Nupro Joint supplement, Duralactin, high omega 3 fish oils, home prepared food mix to replace canned food and also gave Tramadol (prescription pain med) if she seemed ouchy. My Piper was stoic with pain and I worked hard to keep her comfortable. Kidney failure took her in the end, not complications of hip dysplasia. She was my first home-bred AKC champion and I cried when I got her OFA report at two years of age. I never saw it in her movement and was blind-sided by the report. She was spayed and lived her 13 years as my beloved pet.
> 
> I currently have a GSD that I rescued/adopted and who was recently diagnosed with bilateral elbow dysplasia. I have not yet looked at his hips. Since he also has mild inflammatory bowel disease, I give him both Dasuquin with MSM and Duralactin Canine every day. No limping and lots of playful attitude. We only do the non-steroidal prescription medications if he is having a flare. At this point, he is comfortable and seems to be holding his own with just supplements and no other medications.
> 
> There are lots of other forum members here with hip dysplasia experience that can help you both.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I just wanted to send my good thoughts and vibes out to you in this time of need. Its just not fair that these animals have to endure things like this 

You will be in my prayers to find a light at the end of this tunnel. I hope your breeder offers you the money back for your dog as a replacement so you can use that towards the surgery


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Here's the new thread. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/173447-quality-life.html#post2346880


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Verivus said:


> Freestep, he only seems sore and in pain after walks. Otherwise he seems quite happy, which is why I don't think it is fair to consider euthanasia for him at this point.


I'm glad to hear that, and I agree, don't even start thinking about euthanasia as long as he seems happy and reasonably comfortable. Dogs tend to hide pain extremely well, so you'll need to be really tuned into him as things progress and watch for changes in behavior or attitude.



> I do have a contract with the breeder, but it is replacement only and I do not want to send Kaiser back.


Some breeders will let you keep your pup AND give you a replacement, not sure if you'd want to do that. Have you told the breeder about Kaiser's hip status? Might want to make an appeal to them, and ask if they could give a partial refund to go toward his surgery? You never know. You should at least talk to them if you haven't already, they will want to know.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Maybe you could visit Panzer's surgeon! What a sad x-ray, I am so sorry Kaiser and you have to go thru this. I hope the breeder will help you to help him, but he is a Czech import? That may complicate things.


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## lifeisgood (Dec 27, 2011)

I took one look at that x-ray and just cringed. I'm entering week two of rehab with our 8 mo. old, Kona, after TPO. Once he heals from this he will have FHO on his other hip. I'm so sorry for what you are going through emotionally. I was just there. After all of the reading I have been doing, it is entirely possibly for pain management to be successful. That quote blows me away...we just paid 3200 for TPO and are looking at 2500 for FHO. I'm not even throwing in the cost of all of the toys my husband keeps purchasing to keep him entertained! My heart truly goes out to you.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

LARHAGE said:


> Wow, my heart goes out to you, your dog is only 8 months old and you have had nothing but major health problems, can you call around to University Veterinary Clinics and see if they can offer you a deal as a learning procedure? I feel really bad for you.


Ditto that, university hospital, I'm fortunate to have one close by me, also it never hurts to have a second and third opinin and price list. Also see if your local vet clinic will allow a fund drive bucket for people too put their loose change in for that procedure, some clinics allow for that for animals in need.

I was told when my border blew out her knees years ago that dogs do have an amazing ability to cope with physical limitations, much more than people do it seems. My dog let me know when she wasn't feeling well, just by the amount of activity she would perform and the speed she would do it. I was informed about a non steroidal anti-inflamitory pain med that I could give oraly just as needed (called Meticam, you could probaby get some for your dog, through the vet office) It seemed to work miracles with my border. Wishing the pup well...


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Freestep, I really can't have another dog right now. Maybe in 1/2 a year, but not right now. Jane, he is an import so the broker partner handles all the U.S. inquiries and he's in Phoenix (2 hours from me) which isn't so bad. I doubt he would want to do anything other then replacement though since that's all he offered with the dental situation. Right now I'm looking into FHO costs in my area to see what I can afford to do. I live in AZ; there are no vet schools here.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Chrissy, I am so very very sorry He is such a beautiful puppy and to have had these health issues is just a sin

I would hope the "breeder" would refund your purchase price , but I know how that can work

If you decide to go surgery and hold off, I would find a good Physical Therapist to build up as much muscle tone on him as you can..More Muscle can only be a good thing to hold that joint in better place..

I feel so bad for you and him please keep us updated


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm so sorry that you're going through this, but I can't definitely feel your pain. My pup went through and is still going through the exact same thing. In fact, his x-rays were almost identical to yours, and he had his first surgery at only 6 months old! I have an awesome vet who is also an orthopedic specialist and he performed the FHO for just under $1100. Another specialist quoted me around $2400 per hip. My vet's fee included the surgery, all meds, post op x-rays, and follow up visits, and he even allowed me to make payments with a down payment. I paid it off in 6 weeks, but he allowed me up to 3 months. We will be doing the other hip in about a month or so, as my vet wanted to give him as much time to heal as possible. He will be 11 months on the 31st and is healing nicely.

It took awhile though, and because of the condition of the other hip, recovery has still been hard on him. But he gets better maneuvering every day. I wish you weren't so far...you would love my vet.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm really sorry - those are the worst hip x-rays that I have seen posted here on this forum that I can remember. My reaction was to cringe too. Can't believe an 8 month old would have hips this bad. 

I'm glad to hear that he does not seem to be in pain, and that others have had good results with TPO. I hope it will help your boy too. Best wishes.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Sorry, completely off topic, but... Is anyone else seeing that I have Chelle's white GSD as my avatar pic?? Maybe my iPad is acting flippy, but that is not my pic or my dog?? Lol.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It is your iPad, I see a cute LC head!


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Thanks! So weird...


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## Ronda (Aug 23, 2010)

Verivus said:


> Jane, I did shoot an email off to the breeder today. I haven't received a response/call yet. I am worried that if I cannot afford the surgery will he still be able to have quality of life? Would he suffer? Or would it be something manageable? But I started another thread for that. sigh.


 
Hi Chrissy,

So sorry about your pup's hips. Just wanted to share my experience with both hd and the fho procedure. 

I got my rottweiler Holly when she was 2.5 yrs old. I got her because her owners were moving to where they could not have her and she had so many health problems that nobody else wanted her. She had bilateral HD (left hip was rated Severe and the right was rated Moderate to Severe), had already had surgery on one elbow to deal with the ED, and had already blown out her left cruciate. The hips were diagnosed at 7 months old. She was having trouble standing up, running was pure bunny hop, and stairs were out of the question. Her owners did not have the money for the THR so they opted for meds. 

When I got her at 2.5 yrs old she weighed a little over 100lbs, was eating Science Diet JD (joint formula), and took pain relief (rimadyl or tramadol) a few times a week. She was also kept relatively quiet so her hips were not aggravated. I took her off the crappy Science Diet JD, REDUCED her food, and started slowly to exercise her more. 

After about 3 or 4 months, it was like a different dog...she weighed a lean 83lbs, was playing ball for the first time in a long time, and we never touched the rimadyl or tramadol. I did give her cosequin and msm daily. The only time she seemed bothered by anything was if we really overdid the fetching, she loved to fetch and it took her awhile to learn to self limit a little...and she wasn't horrifically painful or anything after a too hard session, just a little more stiff the next morning. 

I had her for a glorious 2.5 years. She was the best dog...she didn't know she got the crappy end of the genetic stick and with some management, it didn't even really affect her life much. Sadly, she blew out her other cruciate just trotting in my backyard...vet said not suprising as her first cruciate blew so early that her actual structure was the culprit not any twisty, fast moves and that this was inevitable. I would have done the surgery but because she had such a messed up hind end, the vet didn't feel that she would be able to manage the recovery because of the stress that it would put on her left hind which had the worst hip. I tried for a week to see how we would manage after the surgery with getting her up and down and it was horrendous. This was the first time my live life to the limits girl was depressed and misreable. 

I let her go a week after she blew the cruciate and it makes me cry today just writing this....BUT, I just wanted to let you know that it is sometimes possible to manage the HD in such a way that your dog can still have a pretty full, enjoyable life. I did lots of things with Holly that I was originally told she would never do... we hiked (5 miles max but hey, who wants to go farther anyways!), we swam, we jogged, she got to play fetch daily, she chased around the nutty poodle, and she was happy.

Now onto the FHO, its a salvage surgery at best...my poodle had one right before he turned a year due to an injury...you would never know it to look at him....granted he is much smaller than your guy but he zips around, jumps 4+ feel in the air, and is still a crazy freak at 10yrs old. Just this year I have noticed the cold has started to bother him and I have started him on cosequin. I would think that your pup's left hip is already so out of the socket that a FHO wouldn't be much different on that side. The good thing about a FHO is that you can do it anytime, so you can wait awhile and make your decision...I had actually considered doing one on Holly when she got older if the hips had started causing problems, we just never got that far. I can also tell you that a FHO at my vet is around 2k. I have seen it done for much, much less though, so this is a shop around type of surgery.

Once again, so sorry about your pup, you've been thru so much with him in such a short time. I hope you keep us posted on him and what the breeder's response is, I hope they find a way to make this right.:hug:

Ronda
Ohen z AlpineK9 "Saphira"


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/173341-whining-after-walks.html
the other thread about poor puppy Kaiser


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

An FHO for $450?!?!?! How is that even possible?!?! That's incredible. I'm jealous! 

Ronda had a good post in the other thread - you can wait to do it a bit - get him nice and lean and work on the muscle tone. I think that is huge when it comes to any ortho surgery. If they are strong going in, they are strong coming out. 

Now, he obviously has some pain, so perhaps some supplements would help and water exercise would be really beneficial. But those butt/thigh muscles are what help to hold that hip in place (yikes - as much as it can there with his). 

I have a dog who had an FHO, and honestly, I have to ask at the vet office which leg it was that had it done because she's a monster - jumping, running, pivoting...she's a mix and only 47# at time of surgery, so that helps (that's a super lean weight too) but her hips were pretty bad and she's done well for a few years now - she's 6.5. Other than being a lunatic  she's got a great quality of life. 

I feel bad but - I love that you "get" that you should not take another dog even if it were free while you are working on getting your current dog all set.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I paid $800 for an FHO for a foster and it worked like a charm! The dog was walking around after 2 days! The recovery and aftercare was easy. She seemed pain-free after surgery. A non specialist doing the surgery will cost much less. Some vets have experience with FHO even though they are not pathos specialists. My area tends to be quite expensive. You definitely need to shop around, $2500 is way too much.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Castlemaid said:


> I'm glad to hear that he does not seem to be in pain, and that others have had good results with TPO. I hope it will help your boy too. Best wishes.


Sorry, I meant FHO since that seems to be the more affordable surgery. Either way, whatever you choose, all my best.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Thanks guys for the support. I don't think I'll be finding an FHO quite as cheap as $450, but I will do whatever I can to scrape together enough money for it. The breeder has yet to call or email me so we'll see what he says, but I don't expect a lot of support really other then another offer for replacement which I don't want. Can you imagine having a dog in recovery AND a bouncy energetic 2 month old? NO thanks, I think I'd die from exhaustion lol.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Thanks Ronda for sharing your experience. It's comforting to hear others' stories dealing with HD and it gives me an idea of what I can do. Never thought I'd have so many problems with this dog, but what can I do other then try and fix it? I will be going with the FHO since I know he is in pain already, along with joint supplements and see how he does.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Here are some ideas to earn/raise money: http://www.imom.org/fa/pdf/fundraising.pdf


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Lakl said:


> Sorry, completely off topic, but... Is anyone else seeing that I have Chelle's white GSD as my avatar pic?? Maybe my iPad is acting flippy, but that is not my pic or my dog?? Lol.


Wow, weird! Hope it went back to normal.

I am so sorry for what you're going thu, Verivus. I don't mean to deviate from the discussion, but I do not understand xrays. Could someone post what a "good" hip xray should look like?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

chelle said:


> I do not understand xrays. Could someone post what a "good" hip xray should look like?


Kaisers:








Karlo'[email protected] yrs:








and just to add a very, very poor positioned x-ray that the vet MIS-diagnosed as "severe" HD(Onyx at 6 months):


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

As you can see in Jane's pics comparing the x-rays, Kaiser has NO hip sockets. The femoral heads are just sitting in limbo, if you will.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

My dog Massie pretty much had no hip sockets either. 

I had her THR done by a specialist in Phoenix but that was 20 years ago.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Verivus said:


> As you can see in Jane's pics comparing the x-rays, Kaiser has NO hip sockets. The femoral heads are just sitting in limbo, if you will.


That was confusing -- I just kept going back and forth looking for where they were supposed to "fit" in. 

Thanks for posting that, Jane.

Verivus, I'm sorry.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

My first GSD had hips almost identical to the OP's dog. Very scary. She was a year old, had shown no signs at all of any issue, got back from a show, opened her crate to take her out and she came out limping. I decided to xray her the next day and got about the same as yours. Both the vet and I couldn't beleive she showed NO problems at all, even showing and doing Search and Rescue training.
I had FHO done on the first hip, then 12 weeks later the second hip. She healed quickly and in fact went on to do Search and Rescue for 9 years after that. No pain, no problems running, jumping or swimming.


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## Veronica1 (Jun 22, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> An FHO for $450?!?!?! How is that even possible?!?! That's incredible. I'm jealous!


 
I was very fortunate to get a referral from a co-worker to this vet. He's an old "country vet," not a specialist, but very experienced. We just had bloodwork done at our regular vet (who doesn't do the FHO), so this vet saved us a couple hundred by not repeating the bloodwork.

For $450, he even treated a hotspot that appeared two days before the surgery AND cut Panzer's nails. 

Really worthwhile to call around. I'm about 2 1/2 hours from a teaching university, and they quoted $2400. 

OP - Now that you know what those hips look like on the inside, isn't it absolutely amazing they function at all, let alone demonstrate athletic ability! Our initial vet said that dogs bear 75% of their weight on their front legs, so can't think of dog hips in same terms as people hips.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Veronica said:


> I was very fortunate to get a referral from a co-worker to this vet. He's an old "country vet," not a specialist, but very experienced. We just had bloodwork done at our regular vet (who doesn't do the FHO), so this vet saved us a couple hundred by not repeating the bloodwork.
> 
> For $450, he even treated a hotspot that appeared two days before the surgery AND cut Panzer's nails.
> 
> ...


Yes, teaching universities can very well be much more expensive than you expect. Been there.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Thank you guys for sharing your stories and giving me the emotional support I need right now. I am going to schedule an appointment to see an orthopedic specialist and see what they recommend I do. I made a whole long post on another board that I just can't type again, lol, but honestly I do appreciate it.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Verivus said:


> Thank you guys for sharing your stories and giving me the emotional support I need right now. I am going to schedule an appointment to see an orthopedic specialist and see what they recommend I do. I made a whole long post on another board *that I just can't type again*, lol, but honestly I do appreciate it.


Copy and paste


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

copy and paste it!! I see that happening often on the boards I frequent...there are identical threads on many boards. I would shop around, though. I hope you can find a reasonably priced solution.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

*C&P, don't know why I didn't think of that.*

"Wow, you guys are all so amazing; I only came here looking for advice and emotional support, but you guys have gone above and beyond. I honestly appreciate it, your offers of help brings tears to my eyes. I think Abby is right, I will take my boy for a consultation with an orthopedic specialist and see what they recommend. For a bit of good news, I talked to the vet I work for today and he is willing to do the FHO if I feel that is the next step. I will get an estimate tomorrow for the procedure; if I decide to get it done while I'm still working there I will get a 50% discount on the total cost so hopefully it is a lot cheaper then $2500. I had thought something like an FHO was for a specialist only, but apparently it isn't. In the event I do decide on surgery it probably won't be for another month or more so I have time to find a place for him to swim to help him get more fit.

I think the biggest thing for me regarding whether or not surgery is necessary is his quality of life before vs after. Right now I know he is in pain. Maybe not constantly, but it does affect his QoL to some degree. I had always thought he was just a mellow pup because he never really wanted to run or jump or all the things puppies normally do unless I played on his prey drive with his flirt pole, toys, etc. I thought it was just his personality. I thought his whining while running after the flirt pole was just pano or frustration, but now I realize his hips were hurting. He can't even walk 2 miles without whining afterwards trying to get up. I want him to be able to run, jump, and be a crazy, normal dog, but is that enough to head right to surgery? Will he be able to live a normal life after recovery? I think eventually he will absolutely need it to maintain QoL because alternative treatment can only help so much, but does he need it now? So much to think about...

And for those of you who were curious, my breeder did email me back this morning. He only offered a replacement with shipping at no charge when I felt I was ready for another dog as per the contract. Honestly, I did not expect much more then that; I was surprised he even tossed in the shipping cost really since he's not even obligated to that much. I won't be ready for another dog for awhile though."


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sell the replacement to pay for the surgeries...not kidding
but they should wait til the replacement is at least 6 month so teething is pretty much over and prelims can be done. You wouldn't want to have another with the same issues.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't know if I would want to go that route. I don't even know who I would sell the dog to, much less make any money that way. I'd be so paranoid to make sure he was going to a good home I probably wouldn't make much, lol.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

His quality of life will be so much better after the surgeries. You won't even recognize him, he will have plenty of typical GSD get up and go... 
When they are in pain, it is amazing how stoic they are and he must be to the point of it being unbearable since he is whining now.
FHO's are considered salvage procedures. Most any vet that can fix a broken bone can do one, they are very commonly done when dogs come into the clinics after being hit by cars, the femoral head breaks off or gets broken in half and the easy fix is an FHO. For along time, the experts said doing it for dogs over forty pounds would not work, but thank goodness there are plenty of vets who didn't listen and lots of big dogs have FHO's all the time.
He will have no pain after the initial surgery is over because once they remove the femoral head from the bone, a "pad" of muscle is wrapped over the cut bone and it lies between the socket and the top of the bone where the femoral head was. Now instead of bone on bone pain,it is muscle on bone. After a few months the scar tissue will actually form a false joint and the leg will be as sturdy and strong as it was with the actual femoral head. In your dogs case, as in my dogs, the femoral head is not touching the socket anyway, but is free floating near the socket and still touching bone to bone when he is walking.
Get the surgeries done, your dog will have a long happy pain free future afterwards. 
The biggest help to fast healing is immediately let the dog, encourage the dog it get up and move around. Range of motion exercises are great to do. I swam my girl daily to help strengthen the leg. This is one surgery where you DON"T want them resting in the crate, you want them to get up and move as soon as they can. They will carry the leg at first, then start toe touching, then start putting the foot down.Some dogs are walking on their toes the same day,others take a bit longer. You can get one done and then do the other as soon as they are using the surgical leg.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Will the surgery affect his growth plates? My vet said I should try to wait until he's one because he's so young right now (8.5mo), but in reality his growth plates won't close until around 18 months, not 1 year.


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## Ronda (Aug 23, 2010)

I don't think it will affect his growth plates...the FHO only involves the "ball" part of the femur...I had my pup done right before a year. He took awhile to start using the leg since his was very painful pre-surgery due to an injury but once he realized that it no longer hurt, there was no stopping him. He's 10 now and wrestles with my 9 month old gsd when he decides the whippersnapper needs some schoolin'. Physically after surgery, he needed to rebuild muscle that he had lost from not using the leg but after he started using the leg, within months, you could not tell by looking at him that it was done...when he ran sometimes you could see a little skip step here and there but for the most part if I didn't tell somebody, they never noticed.

Would you mind if I showed my vets the xray of your puppy on Tuesday when I work? I'm sure they could offer an opinion or some advice. One of our vets does lots of ortho surgeries (not a specialist but does lots because people don't always have the big bucks for a board certified) and is actually the vet who did my dog's FHO 9 years ago.

Ronda
Ohen z AlpineK9 "Saphira"


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Sure Ronda, no problem with showing the x-ray. I think with so many positive FHO stories I'll be heading that route assuming his elbow x-rays are okay.


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