# Know what 'no' means



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Our herding trainer was surprised to learn that Stosh doesn't know what the words 'no' or 'bad' mean. As we were talking she asked about times when I've come home and he's acted guilty because he got in the trash or did something wrong and I said 'huh?'. He's never done anything like that. He doesn't know what it means to be in trouble, told he was a bad dog, or been afraid that he would be punished. Is this as extraordinary as the trainer thinks it is? We tried using twitches with red flags on the end to keep him off the sheep and when we popped them on the ground in front of his nose we got absolutely no reaction- he didn't have a clue that it might hurt or he should back away from it. So how do I teach the concept of 'no' when I've never had to use it?


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

You've never used any correction word at all?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Can you call his name, or just use the word, EH! and then the moment he stops what he is doing, "Good boy." Maybe the word "OFF!" or EASY or GENTLE to remind him to be careful. 

I don't know. I prefer Eh! to No! because it is easier to get out. 

I heard someone use the word SHAME! instead of BAD! And I like that too. I use it with my nieces too, SHAME ON YOU! and they laugh and say it too. But Shame is a harder sound that bad which lends itself to curve upward into less of a reproach. But you do not do much in the way of reproaches, so probably any sternly given word should work with your dog, even NO! or BAD! Most dogs have heard them so much that they tell you to adopt a different word in training classes.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

selzer said:


> I don't know. I prefer Eh! to No! because it is easier to get out.


I have no idea how to train them to understand it. However, I use EH, because it comes out faster and it's more of a correction than the harshness of NO!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Just the 'eh eh' sound. He's so agreeable that I haven't had to be very forceful, that was enough. The trainer had a few sheep in the pen, we were all on the outside getting Stosh to circle the pen without going in on the sheep. Naturally, he got very excited and lunged towards them and put his head inside the pen at one point to get to them. That's when the trainer realized he didn't know the word no or bad or was afraid that he would be punished for doing something wrong.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I use "eheh" "uhuh" sound. I have not used "no" or "bad"

Are you sure you have not given some type of verbal correction before? What if he was starting to pee on the floor? What did you do? Getting into trash or trying to eat food on your plate? Pulling on the leash?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Well he'll learn the word "no" learning to herd,lol I can't imagine a dog so well behaved. Mine knew what no was within 2 weeks of being home,lol. They counter surfed, grabbed things that didn't belong to them, stole food from the kids, peed in the house, bit us playfully, jumped on furniture, plowed over the kids, and destroyed one too many valuables....they know what no means,lol Stosh NEVER did these things? Wanna trade


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

It might be easier to teach him a positive to use around herding. That is, teach him a back up/get back command. Also teach him a slow/steady/down/walk up away from sheep. So instead of telling him "no!" tell him "get back" -- it's more informative too.

Also, you can teach him directionals away from the sheep. It won't transfer flawlessly to working around the sheep, but it can speed up learning when you are there.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

That's what we've been using. Today I was able to keep him off the sheep with 'get back' and a 'down'. Then I used an easy and a swishy noise to get him moving in a circle around the sheep. And I used a cattle paddle to move him forward or away from them and that worked. But the twitch with the flag on the end he totally ignored, he didn't even flinch. That's when the trainer discovered that he also doesn't know the feeling of being a 'bad dog' in trouble... because he never has been. Maybe I'm talking about two different things. I think his fearlessness is one thing. And the fact that I've never had to reprimand him harshly or make him 'fear' me is another. Anyway, it was an interesting discussion. And it was a crazy fun herding day!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am glad you had a good time. I think it is great that you have a great bond with your dog and set him up to succeed. I am glad he is a good dog. 

When I use an EH!, I certainly do not want my dog to fear me. In fact if my dog acts fearful of me, I know I am being an idiot -- that should NEVER happen. And it can be infuriating too. I have NEVER hurt this dog, and she acts like I am going to EAT her. No, that is NEVER what we want. Only bullies want the dog to fear them or put the fear of God in them, or prove they are bigger, stronger, etc. We do not want our dogs to fear us. At least I don't. 

Something Biblical: there is no fear in love, perfect love casteth out fear. I think what I want is mutual respect. I respect my dogs, they respect me. Respecting the dog means accepting them, their strengths, weaknesses, and their dog-nature and understanding their limits, and not requiring of them more than what is reasonable. There is a type of respect you can gain by being a bully, it is a fear-based respect -- not what I want. I want a respect that comes from trust and familiarity, love if you like in the capacity that dogs are capable of it.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Thanks for posting that! I'm a very even tempered, rather quiet personality and I think Stosh reflects that. The trainer is very different and has suggested that I up my energy level so that Stosh knows I'm in control. I don't think that requires a fear of me hurting him or scaring him if he does something wrong. And she isn't advocating that either, she just thought it out of the ordinary that I've raised and trained Stosh this long without him ever hearing no or bad dog. I have learned to be more definite in the commands and expect him to obey the first time but I like the way we're working together and telling him what TO do rather than what NOT to do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with you. 

And I try to set my dog up to succeed and then praise him for it. Much better than setting the dog up to fail, and correcting them. I have a trainer who I really respect, but she feels that you have to set them up to fail so that you can correct them, that way they learn. I am not really on board with that. So far, I haven't been burned.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

if you use "no" as a marker word with a correction they do get it after a fashion........i agree setting them up for success in the first place is more positive, but there are situations that you need to correct them and they need to understand what they are being corrected for and there is a consequence to their action............putting "no" first then a correction along with timing so it clicks...........


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

That's what the trainer is suggesting-- I'll give it a try


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