# Too much Obedience



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Too much obedience ealry on can inhibit them later on.


This statement was made in another thread. I have heard it before, but I don't really understand it. What does that mean?

Not too many commands?
Not too much time spent training?
Not too much correction?

All my guys have loved to work on obedience, even as little, little guys. I have had to teach Grizzly "all done" because he just wants to keep working. If you keep obedience fun, work on the basics that they can handle, and end before they are tired how can it be too much?

Has anyone had this happen, inhibited obedience from working too much when young? Can you give an example?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think if you take the pup to obedience classes, make the pup heel when out for casual walks, make the pup be quiet when they are having a fun vocal session(not just random barking), keep the pup from actually showing its true personality because you are inhibiting the drive due to over corrections.....that long sentence is too much obedience.
Short 5 minute fun training sessions is fine, leave the pup wanting more every session.

Trying to keep pup from the zoomies or growing in their personality is going to inhibit them. I've seen it a few times at training, a new person comes in and the dog is afraid to show itself. Looks to the handler way too much instead of thinking for itself.
Independence is key as far as I'm concerned, but it has to be balanced, look to the handler for direction when asked but think on its own when 'on its own' and should be comfortable in doing so.
A pup should have manners however, and that can be shaped thru praise when doing the right thing, not corrected for not knowing what you expect.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You can do a lot with a pup motivationally and I don't think it inhibits them


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Funny story... I had Luka trained up to CDX level (though we never trialed--long story) and we had been working hard on obedience. We went for a walk down to the University Farm and there happened to be a herding class going on! We stopped and watched the Border Collies and Kelpies working sheep, and then the instuctor called out to me... "Let's see your Shepherd!"

"Who, me?"

"Yeah, come on out and let's see what she does!"

So I handed to leash to the instructor. Luka sort of sniffed the sheep as the instructor walked behind them. Luka kept looking at the instructor, then at me, like "What am I supposed to do?" I could see the wheels turning in her head, and then she suddenly decided "Oh! This is a proofing exercise!" And she proceeded to do a beautiful heeling routine with the instructor and refused to even LOOK at the sheep. 

You might call that an instance of "too much obedience."


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

This concept hit me when we started herding lessons. I had taken Stosh through advanced obedience thinking about competing in it until we tried herding. It was an obstacle to overcome the focus on me and get him to obey from a distance and think independently. Like getting him to down from a distance while I was moving away from him and not taking hie eyes off the sheep. It's kind of like the difference between 'coaching' and 'obeying'. I'd say the first few months of herding was trying to get him to work on his own, keep his focus on the sheep, but hear what I was saying. If I knew we were going to love herding so much I would have stopped with basic manners/obedience. Onyx'girl explained it really well


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I think as long as it's kept positive and motivational, a dog can do lots of obedience and not be inhibited by it. But if you do too much in the way of corrections and compulsion, and don't balance it out with rewards, you can bring the dog down.

When I got my first GSD (10 yrs ago) I wasn't familiar with motivational traning and took classes at an AKC-style school when she was maybe about a year old. The dog I had at the time was a very soft dog with little food or toy drive. It was a lot of correction and not much reward for the dog. Eventually it got to the point where she would shut down as soon as she knew it was obedience time. She hated it and I could never fix that and she was pretty much ruined for obedience. It was a combination of her soft temperament and my heavy-handed training. 

But it also taught me a great lesson - to always keep my dogs "up" and happy to work, using what the dog likes...praise, food, toys, whatever works. And to adjust my training style to the individual dog.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

phgsd said:


> But if you do too much in the way of corrections and compulsion, and don't balance it out with rewards, you can bring the dog down.


OR if you constantly reward and encourage calm low-key behaviors, you might end up with a calm low-key dog when you're looking for more! 

Obedience in and of itself doesn't bring a dog down. Anyone who believes that, I'll just let them play with 13 year old Ianna for a while


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

It sounds like people are saying, "No bad training for your puppy", not "Too much obedience."


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I think if you take the pup to obedience classes, make the pup heel when out for casual walks...


Why do you feel those things are an issue? Assuming that heeling on a walk is different than competition heeling (which would be pretty much impossible to do on a walk anyway).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think dogs can get bored with obedience, some dogs. Sometimes they shut down. I think the bond between pup and owner should be developed with a lot of praise, positive stuff, training a game, always stopping when the pup wants more, not too serious. 

I think it is possible to make a dog shut down. 

My best obedience dog, in the beginning would run and hide in her crate when I got the leash. That was awful. She was doing great in classes but the instructor wanted us to do a 30 minute down stay. The thirty minute down stay may have been ok for her if I would have approached it differently. But I screwed up. She did it perfectly the first night while I was having dinner. The next night I tried again, and she broke it about 20 minutes in. I was not as patient back then, and well, she did it the first night so I corrected her with a nasty tone an put her back in a down roughly. I know, bad. Well, she broke it again, and it was frustrating. I sharpened my tone and tried again. Well, the final answer is I learned that I needed to adjust my thinking and I could get whatever I wanted from this dog. 

I could have her run alongside my bike and sit when I stopped, heel off lead all over town, drop on recall, drop from across a parking lot, I could run up and jump over her, CD in three ring appearances, everyone first place. I put her on a down stay for her CGC supervised separation at a show and she never moved a muscle. We did not take classes or practice for the CGC, we just took the test at a show. 

She was a great dog, but trying to force her to do a thirty minute down stay, well, I went about it wrong and could have ruined her.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Because baby puppies(til at least 8 months) should be able to sniff and engage in their surroundings when out for a casual walk. A five minute formal heeling would be as much as I'd expect for this age, anything more will shut them down or make them not want to comply. A puppy class that is fun, with expectations is one thing, a puppy obedience class for a SchH dog is not something I'd do(or at least bow out of certain exercises, which I did when taking Karlo to one).
It really boils down to the dog and the confidence/threshold the dog has. My dog has a pretty high threshold and is willing to try anything I ask of him without coercion.
I love that he is confident, but doesn't challenge. If he challenged me, then I would take that into consideration and modify my training methods.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Ruthie said:


> It sounds like people are saying, "No bad training for your puppy", not "Too much obedience."


Bingo...I've done a LOT of OB classes. Kind of an adict. It's night and day between "working dog" obedience training and "intermediate A at the local OB club" obedience training.

One is geared towards bringing the best out of your dog...the other is generally geared towards the pet owner looking to make their dogs not jump on their guests.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

holland said:


> You can do a lot with a pup motivationally and I don't think it inhibits them


I agree with Holland.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I see a difference in a ton of formal obedience and doing basic foundation. For example I have no problem having fun teaching a puppy the front and basic positions and how to hold focus/eye contact in those positions. I don't really use commands or words, I just want the dog to know that these are happy/fun/great/safe places. Doing this sort of imprinting and some very basic commands...I simply don't see how that would be an issue for anyone. I'm not saying it HAS to be done, but I don't agree that it is in any way detrimental or excessive. What else are we supposed to do with active puppies who are so willing to play/engage and are like sponges for learning? I will only do so much because there are some things I prefer to teach with more pressure and compulsion and that has to wait, but I think building a great foundation can only help later on and at the very least helps develop the relationship with the puppy. JMHO


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

IMO, it depends on the individual dog how much you should do and yes, that includes motivational training.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I know someone who trained so much with food only and did not transition to a toy so now their puppy has lost some of the great drive it had to start. To me what is over-training or drive killing is when the person does to much correction for ob training or even inadvertently squashing the drive by doing more structured ob than you start with in Sch.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Does one have to "transition"? I tend to start with food, since I tend to start with the stuff I described right away (and I'm not talking about over-training and squashing a dog, just 2 minutes a day, maybe) and then add tools and methods as the dog develops. Add toys, at collar corrections, add a prong, etc. If my dogs will take food rewards at 7 weeks they still do at maturity. Sometimes we switch between toys and food multiple times in the same session. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. The reward itself is not killing or squashing the drive, that would be the handler. I've seen in my own dogs that sometimes it takes a while for something to become valuable to them as a release or a reward object but once it is, it never loses value, unless I suppose I were to make very negative associations with it but that hasn't happened (and I DO use compulsion training).


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Because baby puppies(til at least 8 months) should be able to sniff and engage in their surroundings when out for a casual walk.


Maybe we have a different viewpoint of what heeling on a casual walk is. Bison still gets to sniff and engage, but he has to stay within a 2ft radius of my left side. If there is something particularly interesting or smelly that he wants to check out, I give him a release command then the "heel" command when we walk again.

I am already working with Grizzly on walking on my left side, not in front, not on the right... that doesn't mean he can't enjoy the walk.



> A five minute formal heeling would be as much as I'd expect for this age, anything more will shut them down or make them not want to comply.


I think it depends on the dog and the trainer, five minutes might be way too long.



> A puppy class that is fun, with expectations is one thing, a puppy obedience class for a SchH dog is not something I'd do(or at least bow out of certain exercises, which I did when taking Karlo to one).


I start puppy obedience with Grizzly on Sunday. I train at a center where the focus is on pet obedience. The trainer is very flexible and is ok with people having their own agenda. There are leader dogs and theraphy dogs in her classes because the trainers can do their own thing by modifying the exercises. It was a fantastic venue for working on Bison's focus. 

This type of training is very important to me because it gets the dog used to being inside with other dogs and lots of noise and distractions. I think this is one of the important thing that SchH does not provide and with my aspirations of doing therapy work, we need that.



> It really boils down to the dog and the confidence/threshold the dog has. My dog has a pretty high threshold and is willing to try anything I ask of him without coercion...


The reason that I wonder about this advice to not do OB with a puppy is because of this same reason. If you have a good dog, one that wants to work, and you aren't pushing him/her beyond what she/he wants to do when young, it doesn't make sense at all. How can you do too much obedience? 

It seems like good imprinting at a young age would go a long way. Why wait?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

overdoing it is just as the word is....overdoing. I'd rather not overdo and possibly have to make up for lost time(which I have done and am doing) vs correcting or fixing a problem from the overdo. I am one that isn't real fixated on obedience, and am softer in my management. So I am the problem, not my dog. I should be a bit harder, but find it hard to do. :help:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Stosh said:


> This concept hit me when we started herding lessons. I had taken Stosh through advanced obedience thinking about competing in it until we tried herding. It was an obstacle to overcome the focus on me and get him to obey from a distance and think independently. Like getting him to down from a distance while I was moving away from him and not taking hie eyes off the sheep. It's kind of like the difference between 'coaching' and 'obeying'. I'd say the first few months of herding was trying to get him to work on his own, keep his focus on the sheep, but hear what I was saying. If I knew we were going to love herding so much I would have stopped with basic manners/obedience. Onyx'girl explained it really well


Oh please...

That is the same urban legend you hear in SAR. 

It's not the obedience, it's how people manage their dogs. 

If you can't even trust your dog half an hour alone in the house, if you can't take them on off leash walks because you fear he might run away, if you constantly micromanage a dog without having trust in what they are capable off and what they already learned, it's setting a dog up for failure. 

My bitch is pretty advanced in obedience, actually, she's beyond regular "Advanced" classes yet, she works on distance, even out of sight, and she's not dependent on me in the least but my dogs enjoy a lot of freedom and they are allowed to range within sight when we are on off leash hikes. She's doing that ever since she's three months old. Not a lot of people would trust their dog off leash, ranging, romping, running within sight. 

If a dog is micromanaged for most of his life, how is he supposed to be independent?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vandal said:


> IMO, it depends on the individual dog how much you should do and yes, that includes motivational training.


And, IMO, even more so the individual doing the training.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lhczth said:


> And, IMO, even more so the individual doing the training.


Yep, you have got to know your dog and what is right for the dog. It's a learning process for both, the handler and the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> And, IMO, even more so the individual doing the training.


Yeah, I'm having a hard time imagining *any* dog where it would be inappropriate to do fun and motivational basic obedience foundation as a puppy apart from the handler really screwing it up....


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

What I meant as using food as a drive squasher is as much the person and how they use food. Also you can see in a dog if you engage with food and they have to stop and eat it can calm them compared to playing with a toy. Again it goes back to some people are okay playing rough with there dog and not worrying about how their hands look and others not wanting to look like they played with a gator. 

However the other person posting talked about doing AKC or petsmart type obedience training. From my expereince with these 2 near me they do more to squash the drive in a dog to make it a housemate then OB like we do in Sch where it is fun and encourage and build drives.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> However the other person posting talked about doing AKC or petsmart type obedience training. From my expereince with these 2 near me they do more to squash the drive in a dog to make it a housemate then OB like we do in Sch where it is fun and encourage and build drives.


From what I saw yesterday, at the "advanced Obedience" training, I have to agree with that. They looked more like they were sleepwalking with their dogs. There was no drive whatsoever and when I rewarded my dog with her ball I felt disruptive. I don't think they've ever seen a dog play like that in Obedience.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

szariksdad said:


> ....
> 
> However the other person posting talked about doing AKC or petsmart type obedience training. From my expereince with these 2 near me t*hey do more to squash the drive* in a dog to make it a housemate then OB like we do in Sch where it is fun and encourage and build drives.


Absolutely! I spent two years squashing Jax's drive because of ignorance. Now, with a new fabulous trainer, I'm tapping into her drive so she enjoys working with me.

As far as her "motivational reward", it depends on the situation. If we're in a new spot and her attention is everywhere but on me, I'll pull out her frisbee. If we're at home and I bring out the frisbee, her drive is so over the top she's all but spinning circles around me. Then I just use treats.

I don't think there is a right answer on 'to much obedience', a right kind of obedience, a right place for obedience or any other "right's".

I think it all depends on the dog, the place, the situation, the stress the dog is under at the time. Just my own inexperienced opinion based on my own dog.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

*example*

Amy-
For a clear example, think Hugo. I had no idea what SchH was before he was 6 mos old and had already put a ton of OB into him, even though the sessions were short, more motivational than not. The foundation would be different if I were to do another pup with SchH in mind. I'd let the pup be a bit more of a brat, not worried so much about inhibiting biting or jumping. 

Pups are so biddable, a ton of OB is not necessary, even for a "pet", more marking desired behaviors with command que words and play to build the bond would be less likely to squash any drives one might wish to employ later, in any venue.

Again, folks verbalize generalizations based upon experiences, and generalizations, while making for good conversation, don't take into account the individuals or their relationships which color how well the dance flows.

JMO, given free, like all others.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

szariksdad said:


> What I meant as using food as a drive squasher is as much the person and how they use food. Also you can see in a dog if you engage with food and they have to stop and eat it can calm them compared to playing with a toy. Again it goes back to some people are okay playing rough with there dog and not worrying about how their hands look and others not wanting to look like they played with a gator.
> 
> However the other person posting talked about doing AKC or petsmart type obedience training. From my experience with these 2 near me they do more to squash the drive in a dog to make it a housemate then OB like we do in Sch where it is fun and encourage and build drives.


Granted that using food uses a different drive than a ball, but that doesn't mean that you have to squash the drive while doing it. If you have a dog with drive, "making it a housemate" is not going to inhibit his/drive for work. IMO, showing clear and fair rules for living in the house has nothing to do with "bringing it" on the field.

Why do you want your dog in a crazy drive state for obedience anyway? 



> From what I saw yesterday, at the "advanced Obedience" training, I have to agree with that. They looked more like they were sleepwalking with their dogs. There was no drive whatsoever and when I rewarded my dog with her ball I felt disruptive. I don't think they've ever seen a dog play like that in Obedience.


You probably where disruptive. What breed of dogs were they? Where they GSDs? Mals? Why should they be doing obedience in drive? In indoor obedience, it is different than training outside. There is a different goal. In Schh, flashy barely controlled obedience earns points. I would guess that AKC or UKC obedience is different and DEFINATELY people who want manners on their pets have a different agenda. Why should they train like you do?

I like what Anne said on another thread. (Paraphrasing, so correct me if I am misrepresenting) You don't need to have a dog loaded in prey to have flashy obedience. You have a dog who wants to please his/her handler. I want to believe this is true. 

I am just silly enough to think that my dog can work in a drive level that is sane, have fun, and title in BOTH indoor and outdoor OB.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Sure food can squash drive if you use it in a wrong way. How often when someone goes out there on the field to train in Sch with food do they use it the same as a toy to tease the dog and get the twinkle in the dogs eye where they want to work. I say out of the people I have seen come to our club maybe 1 out of 12. Instead they give a command and when they get the result they feed the treat which can lower drive over time. For Sch. OB if you get the dog up in drive it easier to work with them and to get them to want to work. it does not have to be overdriven.

While yes I can make a dog biddable in the house I was just pointing out that most of the time when I goof and go inside a petsmart and they are training puppys and owners they do more to squash the drive in a dog then build it in my experience to create household manners. This works great for most homeowners, it does create problems for those of us who have a Sch. dog. While on the OB field of Sch. we want the dog up and energetic.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

szariksdad said:


> Sure food can squash drive if you use it in a wrong way.


That doesn't even make sense to me. I would agree that you can use food in a way that doesn't BRING OUT drive or utalize drive, but how can it squash drive? Does it really lower the drive or is it just that the dog learns he doesn't have to use it to get the reward. Take that same dog and put it with your 1 out of 12 trainer and see if the drive is still there. 

To me, when you use food for training it is only part of the picture. Your body language and voice are a huge part of getting the drive level you want. 

Besides, we are talking about puppies here. Isn't most of the training at this age imprinting, positioning... 



> How often when someone goes out there on the field to train in Sch with food do they use it the same as a toy to tease the dog and get the twinkle in the dogs eye where they want to work. I say out of the people I have seen come to our club maybe 1 out of 12. Instead they give a command and when they get the result they feed the treat which can lower drive over time. For Sch. OB if you get the dog up in drive it easier to work with them and to get them to want to work. it does not have to be overdriven.
> 
> While yes I can make a dog biddable in the house I was just pointing out that most of the time when I goof and go inside a petsmart and they are training puppys and owners they do more to squash the drive in a dog then build it in my experience to create household manners. This works great for most homeowners, it does create problems for those of us who have a Sch. dog. While on the OB field of Sch. we want the dog up and energetic.


But again... the issue you are talking about here is squashing drive, not "too much obedience".

I still think that the statement "You shouldn't do too much obedience" with a puppy is not true. IMO, it isn't the fact that a person is doing obedience training that is the issue, it is that they are doing training that isn't correct for that dog. I think this statement gives the impression that you should barely do any obedience with a puppy and that just seems like a missed opportunity to me. The whole notion seems very "old school" to me right up there with the advice that you should never tell your puppy "no", because it will squash his/her drive. Silly. Telling my puppy "no" when he gets in the trash isn't going to squash his drive. He either has it or he doesn't.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I imagine that raising a pup for schutzhund might be a little different that for AKC obedience or petsMart type obedience. For one thing we only praise for Four on the Floor. In schutzhund one might like to see four in the air now and again. 

I think for either though if you push push push a puppy you can cause a pup to shut down. And if you drill, drill, drill something, you could create a bored, distracted puppy. 

I won't speak for schutzhund due to lack of experience, on our side of the fence, if you puppy class is not fun, you are doing something way wrong. Training adults can have good days and less-good days, but if you have little or no fun training your dog in classes, you should really re-evaluate whether the classes or the venue is not right for you or your dog.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Before I finish reading all of these great posts i'm going to chime in with my experience. 
My 2 year old is the farthest I've gotten with OB with any dog as she is MY first dog. I have always used +R, BUT I did overdo it with her. Essentially, the overtraining as a pup ruined OB for us. 
I followed Ian Dunbar (Which is a great guide for owners that want a PET) and I got great results; Denali is friendly and well behaved. HOWEVER, now that I want to move on to other things (agility and advanced OB), it is much more difficult with Denali because she doesn't like it at all. She at most will tolerate OB and she has great ball drive. 
All I did to ruin it was over train her as a pup. I did the Sit-Stand-Down drills, Heel drills, everything DRILLS. I basically bored her to death with drills despite the fact that I was praising her to heck.

I really like this thread because I am trying my darndest to not do it with the new puppy. 
Everything I do with her I do with the intention of bringing out her true driven personality so that I can harness it in the agility ring. I even let her get away with enthusiastic jumping while we are training OB and other behaviors that I completely trained out of Denali. The puppy offers tons of awesome behaviors and only a few are on queue.

As of now, I see myself making the same mistakes, but this thread has really helped focus me.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I don't think you read all of my post correctly. Food can squash drive if done wrong and I have seen done wrong multiple times. Food can squash drive if the person keeps feeding the food and not teasing. To the point the dog can go through the motion and get a reward so it puts in no effort and gets a reward. The best example is at club we had someone show up who had gotten a puppy from a local breeder who is known for the amount of drives they produce in the litters. When the person started with us the puppy had great drives we could see right away. However the person was insistent on using food and no toys for this pup in training. As they kept using food and would not transition. Along with coming on to the field with no energy themselves the puppy started to lose drive it was evident. While you can certainly teach a pup no and work on certain house manners I never said not to do it. i was saying that the way OB is often taught to people at petsamart near me does not encourage them to be a great dog on the field but to only be a passive couch potato. 

For me with my pup yes i taught him housemanners and did redirection and worked with him in a way that he wanted to work and kept it fun and exciting to the point when he hurt himself recently, i could take a little time off from the ob but he wanted to he was more than ready to work.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

selzer said:


> I imagine that raising a pup for schutzhund might be a little different that for AKC obedience or petsMart type obedience. For one thing we only praise for Four on the Floor.* In schutzhund one might like to see four in the air now and again. *


Funny you used this example. My DH and I were just joking today that our puppy thinks his first name is "no" and his last name is "off". 

Because of situations in our household, I HAVE to teach him not to jump. It is either that or no puppy at all. (I am actually more teaching him WHEN to jump rather than not to jump at all.) We will see in a few years how much I am screwing him up for jumps and protection.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

szariksdad said:


> I don't think you read all of my post correctly. Food can squash drive if done wrong and I have seen done wrong multiple times. Food can squash drive if the person keeps feeding the food and not teasing. To the point the dog can go through the motion and get a reward so it puts in no effort and gets a reward. The best example is at club we had someone show up who had gotten a puppy from a local breeder who is known for the amount of drives they produce in the litters. When the person started with us the puppy had great drives we could see right away. However the person was insistent on using food and no toys for this pup in training. As they kept using food and would not transition. Along with coming on to the field with no energy themselves the puppy started to lose drive it was evident. While you can certainly teach a pup no and work on certain house manners I never said not to do it. i was saying that the way OB is often taught to people at petsamart near me does not encourage them to be a great dog on the field but to only be a passive couch potato.
> 
> For me with my pup yes i taught him housemanners and did redirection and worked with him in a way that he wanted to work and kept it fun and exciting to the point when he hurt himself recently, i could take a little time off from the ob but he wanted to he was more than ready to work.


No, I don't think I misunderstood your post. I was referring back to the original subject. I wasn't saying that YOU said not to tell a puppy "no". That is just advice I read.

And maybe semantics, but I still don't believe that food squashes drive. In your example, it seems to me that the boring trainer was the issue, not the food.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> I don't think you read all of my post correctly. Food can squash drive if done wrong and I have seen done wrong multiple times. Food can squash drive if the person keeps feeding the food and not teasing.


I keep reading about how food tends to "down" drive, and I never really thought about it, but it's true--as opposed to using a toy in obedience, food tends to be calming.

At this point in my life, *I* don't have what it takes to compete in SchH or other sports--we may do AKC obedience, but time and injury constraints prevent me from doing anything hardcore. Mainly, my GSDs are companion dogs. Now, I love WL dogs, but generally speaking, they are not suited to being housepets. With this in mind, the puppy selected for me does not have over-the-top drive to begin with, and I have been doing very little drive-building with Vinca. We're training with food, encouraging calm behaviors and good manners, and I'm not afraid to tell her "No" for chasing the chickens. 

I did a lot of drive-building with Luka 8 or so years ago, as I did want to compete in SchH as well as AKC obedience. When my life suddenly changed and I was no longer able to pursue it, I wound up with this demanding, high-energy, high-drive housepet! She is, however, biddable, has an "off" switch, and knows how to relax when in the house, so it works out okay. Still, it's hard to relax and enjoy my backyard when I have this dog constantly spitting a ball at me.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Ruthie said:


> And maybe semantics, but I still don't believe that food squashes drive. In your example, it seems to me that the boring trainer was the issue, not the food.


I'm going to have to agree with him and say that food can squash drive. I've seen it with my own dogs. In no way am I an experienced Sch trainer though, but I've studied up on Michael Ellis and have implemented his training methods. The key thing with food is how you reward. 
Instead of shoveling food in the dog's mouth, he makes the dog chase the food. I'll post the video:
Leerburg On Demand Video Player | Keeping Your Puppy Engaged with Michael and Cappy


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Food is mostly used to teach correctness in obedience. The dog operates at a lower drive level when food is being used. That is why most people use it in tracking. When you teach a dog to work at a certain drive level, that is the drive level they will work at. It is not about squashing as much as teaching a dog the behavior of working in a lower drive state.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> Food is mostly used to teach correctness in obedience. The dog operates at a lower drive level when food is being used. That is why most people use it in tracking. When you teach a dog to work at a certain drive level, that is the drive level they will work at. It is not about squashing as much as teaching a dog the behavior of working in a lower drive state.


Thank you! That is exactly what I was trying to say in my newbie vocabulary. Working with food does not decrease the amount of drive that a dog has.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I was reading through thinking what I believe Anne is saying. Food does not "squash" drive, but often what happens is when people use it, they are rewarding the dog for working at a lower or nonexistent drive level. It's not really effective as a release when you are loading up a dog and capping the drive.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

If you use food to constantly reward a lower or nonexistent drive then that is what you get out of the dog after a period. It is not a one time shot and then there is no drive.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Again, we are talking about puppies and doing too much obedience. IMO the drive level that food with happy handler in doses that do tire a puppy are the right drive level for foundation training. This is not going to decrease the drive that the dog has naturally. I am still not seeing the connection to the amount of obedience in the examples that were given.

Lies, I don't understand what you mean by loading up drive then capping it with food.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

szariksdad said:


> If you use food to constantly reward a lower or nonexistent drive then that is what you get out of the dog after a period. It is not a one time shot and then there is no drive.


Really? I don't think I buy that. If drives are due to training, then why bother with bloodlines? I could see that training at a certain drive level can habituate a dog to that level, but I don't buy that the drive disappears. It might be more difficult to access or take more time to train the dog to work at a different level, but if the dog has it genetically I don't think it is gone.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Amy, IME, I agree with both of you. I trained Jax with a prong collar. No positive reinforcement, just compulsion. I completely shut down her drive. I think by only rewarding a dog at a lower drive then you absolutely could shut down the drive. Yes, it is absolutely possible to shut down drive.

On the other side, because Jax does have nice drive, it has been possible to retrain her to tap into her drive and use that. For obedience in a familiar place, I HAVE to use treats. She's so drivey that she's out of control and the rewarding her with treats brings her excitement level down. In an unfamiliar place with distractions, I bring out her frisbee so what I'm more interesting than everything else. 

It has been extremely difficult at times to bring her drive out and hold it because of how she was originally trained. Under stress, she reverts back and shuts down easily.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Ruthie said:


> Again, we are talking about puppies and doing too much obedience. IMO the drive level that food with happy handler in doses that do tire a puppy are the right drive level for foundation training. This is not going to decrease the drive that the dog has naturally. I am still not seeing the connection to the amount of obedience in the examples that were given.
> 
> Lies, I don't understand what you mean by loading up drive then capping it with food.


I agree with you. I think that later on, food alone is usually not sufficient because at least how I train, there's a lot of the dog loading up, often through pressure/compulsion, and food does not provide the same release (IMO) as a toy. However I still always work with puppies using food and so far have continued using food with my other dogs indefinitely depending on what we are working on (and have not had issues with my dogs going flat when I switch between food and toys during the same training session), so I believe we are in agreement with regard to puppy foundation.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I agree with you. I think that later on, food alone is usually not sufficient because at least how I train, there's a lot of the dog loading up, often through pressure/compulsion, and food does not provide the same release (IMO) as a toy. However I still always work with puppies using food and so far have continued using food with my other dogs indefinitely depending on what we are working on (and have not had issues with my dogs going flat when I switch between food and toys during the same training session), so I believe we are in agreement with regard to puppy foundation.


I understand your statement in light of training older dogs particularly with compulsion involved.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> On the other side, because Jax does have nice drive, it has been possible to retrain her to tap into her drive and use that. For obedience in a familiar place, I HAVE to use treats. She's so drivey that she's out of control and the rewarding her with treats brings her excitement level down. In an unfamiliar place with distractions, I bring out her frisbee so what I'm more interesting than everything else.
> 
> It has been extremely difficult at times to bring her drive out and hold it because of how she was originally trained. Under stress, she reverts back and shuts down easily.


I think this illustrates the point I was trying to make. The drive is not gone and it wasn't too much training that caused the issue, it was too much compulsion.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes. Wayyyyy to much compulsion. 

Now, my question is, can you over train and make the puppy hate to work by never giving them a break? I watched a video (I think Leerburg) where they talked about giving the dog time off, as in weeks, from training to give the dog a break.


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## jennyp (Jun 18, 2011)

*Too much correction?*

Hi! I'm new to the forum. My GSD is about 5 and a half months now, I've had him since 8 weeks. I definitely think I made a mistake when I first brought him home, I was micromanaging him a ton because I was very overwhelmed. I was expecting too much too soon. What I should have done was just relax and let him be a puppy. I've been taking him to weekly classes since he was 12 weeks and practice with him daily for about 10 minutes. I'm not sure how to determine his drive level but his favorite game is Find It. He's really eager. My problem is during walks. He's very inconsistent, sometimes I barley have to hold the leash and he walks perfectly by my side and then the next day I'm constantly correcting him because he won't stop pulling. I can feel that it's not fun for him during those times and I worry that I'm bringing him down but at the same time it REALLY isn't fun for me when he's pulling. My question is- am I still expecting too much from my puppy or should I continue to correct him during walks to teach him to heel?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

jennyp said:


> Hi! I'm new to the forum. My GSD is about 5 and a half months now, I've had him since 8 weeks. I definitely think I made a mistake when I first brought him home, I was micromanaging him a ton because I was very overwhelmed. I was expecting too much too soon. What I should have done was just relax and let him be a puppy. I've been taking him to weekly classes since he was 12 weeks and practice with him daily for about 10 minutes. I'm not sure how to determine his drive level but his favorite game is Find It. He's really eager. My problem is during walks. He's very inconsistent, sometimes I barley have to hold the leash and he walks perfectly by my side and then the next day I'm constantly correcting him because he won't stop pulling. I can feel that it's not fun for him during those times and I worry that I'm bringing him down but at the same time it REALLY isn't fun for me when he's pulling. My question is- am I still expecting too much from my puppy or should I continue to correct him during walks to teach him to heel?


Welcome to the forum! IMO, no corrections on walks at that age, reinforce with voice and treats when he is walking nice. 

This section is for Schutzhund training. I suggest that you start a post in the puppy or training section you will get a lot more feedback.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Hey, that is my quote! And yes, I stand by it. I think way too much has been made of this in this thread. The issues I wanted to highlight by "too much obedience" have been addressed in the first few posts, where dogs have been under so much control with unreasonable high behavioural expectations from the time they are puppies that when out at the field, they are afraid to do anything without direction from their owners. 

Most of us here, all of those that have posted on this thread know how to work a puppy to their potential without over doing it. I was addressing the many beliefs that a pup is to be corrected for play biting, is expected to down-stay for 30 minutes, is expected to know to not go into certain areas, is expected to go on 30 minute walks and stay in a perfect heel, then gets punished when the pup has zoomies and wants to blow off energy - thus the "let the puppy be a puppy and (I should have said) have reasonable behavioural expectations of your pup.

People have issues in tracking because their dog won't go to the end of the line, often a direct result of too high expectations on the pup to stay close all the time, for example. 

Working with a pup from an early age, a lot of what we do is not obedience but shaping (as is a lot of what we do in bite-work), in how we set up the pup to offer us the behaviour we want, and we mark it and reward. Eye contact, basic position, loose leash walking, a second of sit and waiting before a treat, all these basics manipulated into everyday activities a zillion times a day and we reward the behaviour - still not what I would call obedience, but shaping.

I used the term obedience in the formal sense, in that the pup has been drilled that they cannot move or do anything until the command is given, then must do what was commanded. 

I'd give the same advice to anyone with a pup who asked, whether they wanted to do Schutzhund or not. Let the pup be a pup, build their confidence. Shaping, luring, marking, rewarding are training, but I don't consider it as obedience per se, more as a precursor and foundation work for what is expected later on.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Yes, it was your quote, but I have heard it many times. It wasn't meant to be a criticism of what you said in particular, but rather a discussion of the concept.

I got the same advice when I was a new GSD owner and took it to mean that I really shouldn't take him to classes or work with him on obedience until he is a year old. Maybe that was an extreme misunderstanding, but if I would have listened it would have been a lost opportunity.

IMO the better advice would be train in short sessions, keep it positive and fun, and quit before the puppy looses interest.

With the discussion morphing into food not REMOVING drive, that is an interesting topic for me because it is one of the few things I do have experience with. LOL.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> Yeah, I'm having a hard time imagining *any* dog where it would be inappropriate to do fun and motivational basic obedience foundation as a puppy apart from the handler really screwing it up....


I think you're right for the most part. But I do think that it can cause problems for the *owners*. I see more and more dogs that can't settle around their handlers because every time the handler is in the picture they are hyping the dog up. They get so enthusiastic about the dog and training that they never let the dog settle in their presence. In short order they have a dog that goes into drive every time the owner is around. This is fine if your dog lives in a kennel but a real pain if live in a studio apartment.


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