# Challenging / Charging others



## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Hi Guys,

*Is my dog a bully?*

It's been a while since I've brought my dog to the dog park, but this time he challenged/ charged each dog he met. Upon seeing another dog, he waited until approx 5ft distance, and then charged head first, hackles raised, at the dogs face. if the dog showed nervousness or fled, he chased them. If the other dog stood it's ground, my GSD would move on and ignore the other dog. In our 20 minute visit, he chased one doberman who cried and looked scared. He was about to pin her, but recalled at my command. The next time we saw this dog, the same thing happend The other dogs (including a very old, small female) didn't react to his "challenge", so he stayed beside me and ignored the other dog afterwards.

The only thing I can relate it to is "bro culture" that you see in movies, where a guy jumps forward saying "come at me" and sees how the other reacted. 

*Am I over thinking this, or is he showing signs of aggression/ being a bully?*

As some back story: Sitka is a 2.5 year old, male, neutered, 75lb GSD. He has always been very nervous of other dogs; when I used to take him to the park he would approach dogs, but as soon as they looked at him, he'd run away with his tail between his legs. Every trainer I have worked with says he needs to boost his confidence, but I'm afraid this is a boost too far.

Pic for attention/reference


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I would think no more visits to the dog park. This could turn ugly quickly, and either your dog, the other or both can be seriously hurt. Best of luck.


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Great looking dog! Sounds like he’s a bully, nervous and reactive. Dog parks aren’t a good place to take dogs that aren’t chill. Hikes with another dog(s) started out on leash usually keep them out of trouble as long as you keep moving.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

If he's not comfortable meeting other dogs but he's often put in circumstances where he has to,he may feel he needs to drive them away.It may be best to find a different place to exercise him where he could enjoy his outing and not feel anxious.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

A confident dog walks quietly among the chaos. They have no need to roar and posture, they know they are in control.
The dogs that charge and bark are the fearful, insecure ones. They bluff and posture because that's all they have.

Your dog sounds very typical of a neutered male. When we take away the hormones we remove a part of their identity. They no longer fit in with the plan. 
Stop with the dog parks and up the training.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> A confident dog walks quietly among the chaos. They have no need to roar and posture, they know they are in control.
> The dogs that charge and bark are the fearful, insecure ones. They bluff and posture because that's all they have.
> 
> Your dog sounds very typical of a neutered male. When we take away the hormones we remove a part of their identity. They no longer fit in with the plan.
> Stop with the dog parks and up the training.


This ^


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If he was always nervous with dogs he may be always uncomfortable around dogs. I would not put him in a dog park it is not where he would grow confidence. His confidence may grow as he excels in a skill and matures but will not be a dog park dog where dogs are often loose and all energized up.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

... duplicate post


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sitka has matured into a very handsome boy!

Go back and reread your thread about Sitka being bullied at the dog park (2017)! The majority on this forum then said to keep your dog away from these situations, and you listened. It was wrong then and it's wrong now! Unless of course your goal is to have a dog that needs to be "managed" the rest of his life!

Because you listened to them back then though, if you want your dog to be okay around other dogs, it'll take some work. He's matured and gained some confidence, but is still fearful of other dogs. Precisely because you chose not to let him work through it then, when he was younger. The absolute only way to get him over that now is to have him around other dogs, and guide him as to what is and is not appropriate behavior. 

If he's bullying other dogs, buy him a muzzle! I saw this work well recently with a 3 yr old GSD male who was a bit of a bully, running up and biting other dogs in the hind quarters.

The idea is simple, expose him enough to having strange dogs around that it becomes a non-event. Might seem counter intuitive to you (and many others), but it works, I've seen it work miracles countless times!

Or go yet again with the, and majority, conventional wisdom that got you here in the first place...

If you do go back and reread your thread, pay particular attention to the behavior "predictions" of the people advising you to avoid other dogs, or allowing them to be pressured too much. 

My dog has a CGC certificate, which she passed easily first try and without any classes. She's absolutely fine with any strange dog we meet anywhere, provided they are, and we go off-leash all the time at the river, the beach, and recently in dog parks all over in five states (so far, we're still on the road!)! And she's gone almost daily to a dog park since she was 6 months old, so there's that...


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Your dog is uncomfortable at the dog park. He feels threatened and is putting on a show to protect himself.

I'm sure it's not a fun experience for you either as you have to be constantly on guard, waiting for bad things to happen.

Why go to the dog park? 

Go do something that is fun and rewarding for both of you.


----------



## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

I agree with what has been said, also not only is your dog uncomfortable but he’s making the experience negative for the other dogs at the park. When my dobie was young I took him to the dog beach (he wasn’t more than six months old) and there was another adolescent GSD who ran around terrorizing every dog he could get to. Constantly charging, biting and knocking into or over. His owners didn’t do a SINGLE thing about it, wouldn’t leash him would just occasionally say “oh, stop it ____!” Meanwhile my puppy is huddled behind me for protection. He has NEVER liked social situations like this with other dogs since he has matured and this experience definitely did not help! I have three dogs, they are all different breeds and have different personalities. My Dobe gets anxious when he has to stay still for extended periods of time and he does not like other dogs, but he is an ace hiking buddy. My GSD is a socialite and loves going into town, he can chill and not have to always be on the move. Gauge what activities your dog enjoys and is comfortable with. I’d give new things a chance to become accustomed to, but this doesn’t seem to be that type of situation.


----------



## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Agree with others on stopping the trips to the dog park. Maybe try putting him in situations where he meets the same dogs each and every time, and these are dogs that have been chosen because their personality matches or complements his.

For example, he ignores dogs that don't care about his stupid posturing. That's good. Find more dogs like that and expose him to them, and make sure it's a repeated exposure to the same dog. That will show him that posturing doesn't work. He'll have to think of a different strategy. And repeated exposure to the same dog will breed a familiarity with that dog. That becomes comforting in a way. It's stable. Regular.

It's like when you go to that cafe/coffee shop/bar/whatever on a regular basis, and the staff knows you by sight and say hello every time and bring you your "regular" without you having to order it specifically. You see your neighbors there and say hello to each other. You're a regular. That's a nice feeling being a regular, isn't it? Dogs are just like that. They like "being a regular" and seeing other regulars, too.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’m often perplexed with people who own this breed, and get concerned when they don’t thrive in a dog park environment. GSD’s are not supposed to be social breeds. Neither are they supposed to be aggressive around other dogs that pose no threat. They are supposed to be cool headed working around other dogs, but not interacting with them. Sure, there are the few oddball GSD’s that are super social, but they are few and far between. 

What do I expect from my 4? That they can all walk past any dog, and be aware it is there, without having a reaction. Whether it be excitement over seeing a new dog, fear of seeing a new dog, or aggression over seeing a new dog. When I don’t get the behaviors I expect from them, I know it’s time to up the training, not flood him/her with a ton of new dogs. 

My dogs play with their family. Humans and furry 4 legs. And that’s all. I would much prefer a walk through the woods, a hike up a mountain, or a car ride to the car wash with my brood over a dog park any day.

Then again, I’m as aloof and unforgiving of rudeness in others as GSD’s are, which is why I own the breed. They fit my lifestyle to a T.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@atomic excellent post!Doing things with our dogs that they naturally enjoy and excel at is a pleasure.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

From what you are saying, he is acting out of fear and trying to drive the other dogs into avoidance. If you keep letting him repeat this behavior, it will become a habit. Like someone else mentioned, find dogs that don't react to his bad behavior and let him interact with them to learn proper doggie social skills. 

Do NOT let him work things out with other dogs. Letting him interact with other dogs with poor social skills will only result him learning the same bad behaviors that they exhibit or worse. You don't need to pay vet bills for your dog or someone else's dog. More importantly, you don't need to enhance his fearful behavior by letting more ill mannered and bullying dogs have access to him.

All dogs are not created equal and neither are their playstyles. German Shepherds tend to dislike "in your face" kind of dogs even if the other dogs are friendly. GSDs have a strong sense of personal space that they don't like to have invaded. Be on the lookout for such rude behavior from other dogs. Your dog will be labeled aggressive and at fault when he responds with aggression to a friendly dog up in his face.

I am not sure if your dog is neutered but that can be a contributing factor. Neutering can increase fear aggression and anxiety. Some things to keep in mind.


----------



## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Thank you everyone!

To be clear, I have stopped bringing Sitka to the dog park, this was the first time in months, and I noticed this charging/challenging behaviour for the first time. Sitka's training has been going great lately with ignoring dogs on leash, basic commands, quick recall, etc. I brought him to the park to see how his training would be when there were so many distractions around. And I was pleasantly surprised that he did listen to my commands 80% of the time...

But I agree with everyone's advice; most of you have reiterated what I suspected - that he is posturing as a fear-driven defense. I do not subscribe to the "let them work it out" philosophy. I think that doing too much of that when he was young contributed to his nervousness now, as he was pinned down and bullied a lot. Unfortunately, I can't go back, but I have learned better now. Sitka has never been a social dog - with people or other dogs - and I don't expect this of him. I know two dogs that he is very comfortable with and has been playing with since they were puppies, and that's enough.

He doesn't like the dog park, and I don't blame him! My choice to get a GSD in the first place was as a hiking/camping partner, and protection, NOT to have a dog that his bestfriends with strangers and strange dogs. And I've got just that  

I'll stick to the mountains, lakes and trail hikes that we both enjoy!

Thanks again everyone!


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

^ my dog was a confident puppy. I gave her too much freedom and also took her to dog parks. She’s very high energy and approaches ‘in your face.’ Well she got mauled by a cattle dog when she was 5 months and bit a couple times at the dog park. She’s too drawn to unknown dogs and hyper aware. She’s not confident around dogs her size or larger. 
She’s spent a year on leash recovering from injury and learning not to react to other dogs. May be the best thing I’ve ever done for her. I don’t think she’ll ever be a confident dog around unknown, off leash dogs but she’s less drawn to them and more drawn to me. I’ve learned to manage her environment better and will not make the same mistake with the next pup.


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> All dogs are not created equal and neither are their playstyles. German Shepherds tend to dislike "in your face" kind of dogs even if the other dogs are friendly. GSDs have a strong sense of personal space that they don't like to have invaded. Be on the lookout for such rude behavior from other dogs. Your dog will be labeled aggressive and at fault when he responds with aggression to a friendly dog up in his face..


This is so true! When I first got Rumo, I thought he might be aggressive because he would growl at some other dogs when meeting them. As I became more experienced, I noticed a pattern...he growled at other dogs that did not "behave" - the ones that barked excitedly in his face, lunged around too quickly, or tried to jump playfully on his back. A dog that greeted quietly and politely, or a dog that gave a play bow, was always welcome. 

If dog parks were full of dogs with "good manners", he would be fine there - unfortunately ours are not! Ours tend to be full of dogs that will not come when called, and also there seem to be "cliches". The regulars form "cliches" and they gang up on newcomers, barking and chasing and bullying them.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

SitkatheGSD said:


> ...
> He doesn't like the dog park, and I don't blame him! My choice to get a GSD in the first place was as a hiking/camping partner, and protection, NOT to have a dog that his bestfriends with strangers and strange dogs. And I've got just that
> 
> I'll stick to the mountains, lakes and trail hikes that we both enjoy!
> ...


I truly wish you luck with that strategy, if that's what you choose. But to be clear, I didn't suggest continuing to visit dog parks per se. I suggested, and still do, that you help your dog get beyond his fear based posturing with other dogs. Maybe it's different where you're at, but I run into off leash dogs all the time in the mountains, at lakes and on trail hikes. We've encountered them many times just walking through the neighborhood! And you hear people complaining about it all the time! 

Just a few weeks ago I visited my brother and brought my dogs. He has a fully fenced backyard, and my dogs and his were in it when his new neighbors let their 3 little dogs out. Their dogs immediately ran to the adjoining fence barking, and they dislodged a fence board and came running through into my brothers yard! Could have been a catastrophe, but our dogs just greeted them in stride, as the terrified owners rushed to rescue them. Point is, things happen. 

And just like you can't teach a dog a long down stay by practicing sitting. You also can't teach a dog to tolerate other dogs, or how to effectively communicate with them, in isolation. It really does require practice and training and other dogs. It doesn't need to be a dog park, though that is a venue many people who don't have multiple dogs or friends with stable, well behaved dogs use. And it can effective and useful.

I'm not sure where the idea that the only way you can take a dog to a dog park is if he's a super social, friendly to everyone and every dog type, but that's nowhere near reality. Many dogs go and use the dog park without ever interacting with any other dog, and that's perfectly fine! My own dog is very selective about who she plays with, and she goes weeks without playing with any other dog at all frequently. She's not a pointy-eared lab ?

But whether you choose a dog park, or friends with trusted, stable dogs, I truly hope you see the value of not just ignoring and avoiding the problem! In my view a dog behaving as you've described is a liability waiting to happen, be it camping or hiking or whatever...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@Tim has a good point. I thought about it earlier but didn't want to get into it but since he did, you will meet a lot of dogs out on trails. IME, a lot of people have extremely dog aggressive dogs that they take out on these trails. I don't think they should as it is an accident waiting to happen and I am not interested in dragging a 90# injured dog out of the woods and to my car. I find it to be a serious problem. There isn't a lot you can do about other people's dangerous dogs in isolated or remote areas but you should be prepared for a possible encounter. Not all dogs you will meet will be dog aggressive and a lot of people go on these trails so that they can give their dogs a break and let them off leash. The more traveled the trail, the more off leash, friendly dogs. The more isolated the trail, the more aggressive the dogs, sometimes off leash too.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Tim has a good point. I thought about it earlier but didn't want to get into it but since he did, you will meet a lot of dogs out on trails. IME, a lot of people have extremely dog aggressive dogs that they take out on these trails. I don't think they should as it is an accident waiting to happen and I am not interested in dragging a 90# injured dog out of the woods and to my car. I find it to be a serious problem. There isn't a lot you can do about other people's dangerous dogs in isolated or remote areas but you should be prepared for a possible encounter. Not all dogs you will meet will be dog aggressive and a lot of people go on these trails so that they can give their dogs a break and let them off leash. The more traveled the trail, the more off leash, friendly dogs. The more isolated the trail, the more aggressive the dogs, sometimes off leash too.


That’s why we train outside the dog park fence. They get to see and experience being around other dogs, in different mind sets, and learn to ignore them and focus on me (or DH). Okay, I even laughed at that one, DH hasn’t ever seen a dog park, let alone taken them and trained with them ?.

Anyway, I also have a long lead on mine when I was hiking with them. We’ve past many a dog, and even if the dog was yipping, lunging, or barking/growling, my guys just ignored them. It took a very long while to get Lyka there, but she’s got it down now! Crios was difficult because he wanted to play with everything that came by, but he learned to ignore them and pass by too. As soon as I’m healed up and given the okay, I’ll be doing the same with Seiran, and forcing DH to take Floki and do the same with him. 

They get plenty of interaction amongst each other, and we introduce them to new environments to keep it from getting boring, but I still don’t see the need to have dog friends for them. They can be trained to ignore and avoid rude dogs, and if one off leash charges them, they will meet my wrath and walking stick.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm sort of annoyed with all the negative crap about less then ideal dogs. 
Sabs and I for a time would utilize a quiet corner of a huge off leash area to train in. We were by ourselves and doing fine. Sabs was always willing to ignore strange dogs until they got in her face. Minding our own business, working on obedience and some loser woman and her crazy lab see us way off in the distance and head straight at us. Asked her nice three times to call her dog, and then we left and what does the cow do but follow me home! Ranting the whole way about MY vicious dog. 
I routinely hike isolated and lonely trails with my current crazy mess, I have yet to cause an issue. In fact I seldom see people and the last time we saw a dog "he's friendly" was several hundred feet from his owners and barking and snapping at my ON LEASH dog that I was holding by the collar!
It has been my experience that people with dogs that may have issues who drive for extended distances to get away from other dogs and people generally are aware that they have an issue and take measures to safeguard everyone. It's the idiots who own the perfect dogs that let them wander off leash and remain loose in yards who are the issue.
Shadow has now been attacked SEVEN times! Pretty impressive for a dog who is never loose. I can promise you that she instigated not a single one of those attacks. I can also promise that at least three of those dogs were "usually really good. I don't know what happened."

OP your dog is not cool with other dogs, and he doesn't need to be. He just needs to learn to ignore them and pay attention to you.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Looking for a post-dog park place to exercise Jupiter, I took him to the elementary school before six am on the weekend. It's a nice big space and I found a corner to use the 100' lead and play fetch. Turns out other people use the school too--they started to filter in and let their dogs off leash and hung out in a big clump just like a dog park. Mostly labs, but a collie and two little white yappers, too. Of course half of them had to run over and meet Jupiter. One mixed-breed dog actually chased him around and nipped at him while he was playing fetch (luckily Jupiter tends to ignore such distractions). The little yappers streaked away from their owner, who smoked and yelled ineffectually at them, and it's lucky for them that Jupiter is neutral to dogs, because they were completely out of control! As were the others who ignored their owners to come over.

There were no issues, but it's striking how little control people have over their off-leash dogs, and how they think that's okay.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I'm sort of annoyed with all the negative crap about less then ideal dogs.
> Sabs and I for a time would utilize a quiet corner of a huge off leash area to train in. We were by ourselves and doing fine. Sabs was always willing to ignore strange dogs until they got in her face. Minding our own business, working on obedience and some loser woman and her crazy lab see us way off in the distance and head straight at us. Asked her nice three times to call her dog, and then we left and what does the cow do but follow me home! Ranting the whole way about MY vicious dog.
> I routinely hike isolated and lonely trails with my current crazy mess, I have yet to cause an issue. In fact I seldom see people and the last time we saw a dog "he's friendly" was several hundred feet from his owners and barking and snapping at my ON LEASH dog that I was holding by the collar!
> It has been my experience that people with dogs that may have issues who drive for extended distances to get away from other dogs and people generally are aware that they have an issue and take measures to safeguard everyone. It's the idiots who own the perfect dogs that let them wander off leash and remain loose in yards who are the issue.
> ...


I hope you don't feel like I was doing that! That Shadow was attacked while on leash is not ok! 

BUT! But I truly don't think that's the case here. Sitka was a little timid with other dogs when young. And based on advice offered here on this forum, he was not allowed to find his groove, so to speak. 

In my view, for what it's worth, I don't think you are doing any dog a favour by taking them to a dog park or any other venue where they're interacting with other dogs, letting them get bullied a bit and then keeping them isolated thereafter! Of course they won't spontaneously recover from that. It's sort of an all or nothing proposition! 

Given a little time, he and most other dogs WILL find that they can hold their own. Doesn't involve fighting, and it doesn't involve trauma. But it does build confidence, and it does teach them how to interact with their own kind. 

On the other hand, if you take your dog to a dog park or expose them to other dogs they don't know and they get bullied a bit and you end it there or isolate them "for their own good", what do they learn? That other dogs really ARE a threat and scary! And that sticks with them!

Again, IMHO it's all or nothing. If you have a situation where you can and are willing to keep your dog isolated and protected their entire life, by all means go for it! For me, not only would that not be possible, but it wouldn't be desirable. 

For my lifestyle a dog needs to be well versed in dealing with any other dog...be they aggressive or no, deal with it. And I've got to say, not just this current dog, but every single dog I've ever had has done remarkably well at doing so. Having them be around as many new and unknown dogs from an early age, IMHO, is what makes that workable and possible later on in their life. And I have never had to have a dog visit a Vet for stitches due to a dog fight, ever! So there's that...


----------



## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Again, IMHO it's all or nothing. If you have a situation where you can and are willing to keep your dog isolated and protected their entire life, by all means go for it! For me, not only would that not be possible, but it wouldn't be desirable.


Thank you, I appreciate your feedback. Sitka is not and was not isolated though... As I said, there are some dogs I know he plays well with one on one, so it's not all dogs. And after 2 years of constant training he only reacts on leash if the other dog is too close and stares / makes prolonged eye contact.

We go hiking and camping all the time and I have since he was a pup - that 's the reason I decided to get a dog in the first place! We've never had an issue with on or off leash dogs on trails because 99% of the time we can avoid close contact all together, and his recall on the trail is excellent. In the woods, he rarely ventures more than 5ft from me, checking back constantly. 

And he's not vicious or aggressive YET - we have had many encounters in the neighbourhood walking on leash where an off leash dog runs up - often its the small yappy ones, but we did get charged by another offleash GSD that must have broken out of the back yard. In these situations Sitka has always stood tall and not reacted back to the other dogs at all.. just let them sniff him and then continued walking with me. He's never bitten anything, or anyone, ever.

From my experiences, and other peoples comments, I think it's the dog park atmosphere that's the problem. We live a very quiet life, with only one or two visitors (human and/or dog) at a time; most of our days are spent hiking, or Sitka sleeping on my feet while I study (Grad school life zzzzz). I hate parties and large groups of strangers, and I think Sitka feels the same about the dog park .. I may try to find him more well-behaved play partners though.. 

Any one have any connections around London, Ont?


----------



## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Agree with many others: I really think your dog is just uncomfortable with the entire situation. Sounds like he isn't really playing, I would guess the park is simply not fun for him, and it sounds like a nervous experience for you as well. I would kind of forget about the dog park (even though I go to them) and just pick something else he seems to enjoy carefree!


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Sitka sounds like a good dog who just isn't into doggie play groups. 

It's OK if your dog doesn't like to interact with other dogs- friendly or not. It doesn't even necessarily indicate a temperament "issue". 

Sabs- preach, sister!


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

*Notification*



Sabis mom said:


> I'm sort of annoyed with all the negative crap about less then ideal dogs.
> Sabs and I for a time would utilize a quiet corner of a huge off leash area to train in. We were by ourselves and doing fine. Sabs was always willing to ignore strange dogs until they got in her face. Minding our own business, working on obedience and some loser woman and her crazy lab see us way off in the distance and head straight at us. Asked her nice three times to call her dog, and then we left and what does the cow do but follow me home! Ranting the whole way about MY vicious dog.
> I routinely hike isolated and lonely trails with my current crazy mess, I have yet to cause an issue. In fact I seldom see people and the last time we saw a dog "he's friendly" was several hundred feet from his owners and barking and snapping at my ON LEASH dog that I was holding by the collar!
> It has been my experience that people with dogs that may have issues who drive for extended distances to get away from other dogs and people generally are aware that they have an issue and take measures to safeguard everyone. *It's the idiots who own the perfect dogs that let them wander off leash and remain loose in yards who are the issue.*
> ...


I have gotten a couple of notifications about the highlighted portion of this post. I think you are saying that off leash dogs without recall and manners have idiot owners. It could be interpreted to mean that all dogs that are off leash have idiot owners. You may want to clarify your statement a bit.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

"It's the idiots who own the perfect dogs that let them wander off leash and remain loose in yards who are the issue."

I take this to mean that people whose dogs are off-leash and not under perfect control are the issue. Which IME is 90% of them. The dogs are not perfect, not even close, and while idiot is a harsh word, the point is these owners are irresponsible. IMO if your dog is off-leash and anytime there is a problem with an on-leash dog, yes, you caused it.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

A quick statement about socialization, which is what this is really about.

It is important for the dog to experience things growing up. That includes being around other dogs. That doesn't necessarily mean playing with other dogs, and it certainly shouldn't include fighting with other dogs. Your dog knowing that you will step in and deal with a situation is part of that socialization. It's you who are the protector against other ill mannered dogs. If you spend much time outside with your dog, the opportunity to demonstrate this to the dog should happen regularly IME.

The best case scenario is to have the dog around other stable dogs a lot while interacting/training with you. This will make the presence of other dogs a commonplace thing and not so novel. It will also develop the habit of the dog looking to you for interaction and direction while under distraction. I know it's not always easy to come up with a group of well mannered dogs, but it really is the best way to work on this.

If you choose to do a "puppy socialization" class, be sure that it isn't just a bunch of puppies allowed to do whatever they want in a confined area. This is the opposite of what the dog needs. It should be a skill building exercise, not a free for all.

Check out Stonnie Dennis on YouTube for an example of a great puppy program.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CactusWren said:


> "It's the idiots who own the perfect dogs that let them wander off leash and remain loose in yards who are the issue."
> 
> I take this to mean that people whose dogs are off-leash and not under perfect control are the issue. Which IME is 90% of them. The dogs are not perfect, not even close, and while idiot is a harsh word, the point is these owners are irresponsible. IMO if your dog is off-leash and anytime there is a problem with an on-leash dog, yes, you caused it.


Equipment can and does fail. No dog is ever under perfect control. I have seen far more out of control dogs on a leash than off a leash.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Equipment can and does fail. No dog is ever under perfect control. I have seen far more out of control dogs on a leash than off a leash.


I typically have a backup collar on a dog at all times when working on leash. I use slightly over-sized DD collars for this, even when working on a flat leash. The time a collar fails is inevitably the time you need it most. I also buy very good equipment (leashes, harnesses etc.) which cuts down on the frequency at which equipment fails. I get some strange looks when people see a dog with a prong, a flat collar, an e-collar, a DD collar and a harness on all at the same time, and it's dragging a long line behind it while on a short leash 

While moving to off leash training is always my goal, sometimes I have to manage a dog, and I do use equipment to train and reinforce some behaviors. 

When I am fortunate enough to get a puppy (that isn't already screwed up) to work with, I use a leash very little, and I typically use a very thin slide leash just to guide the dog a bit. I try to be more fun than anything else in their environment. That usually keeps them pinned on me and not looking for something else to do.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Equipment can and does fail. No dog is ever under perfect control. I have seen far more out of control dogs on a leash than off a leash.


That's like saying good drivers shouldn't wear seatbelts.

A leash can theoretically fail. Recalls usually fail. If you're the 1 in 1000 who can pull it off, that's truly wonderful, but it does not describe the usual situation. The usual situation is the owner repeating come over and over while the dog ignores it, and either comes in for a sniff or to play or to fight. 

I personally have never seen an out of control dog on a leash except on Youtube, but I have seen hundreds of out of control dogs off their leashes. The great majority of people can keep their dog away from people or other dogs using their leash. I don't care if it's barking, staring, posturing, or lunging. 

Just keep it away.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I typically have a backup collar on a dog at all times when working on leash. I use slightly over-sized DD collars for this, even when working on a flat leash. The time a collar fails is inevitably the time you need it most. I also buy very good equipment (leashes, harnesses etc.) which cuts down on the frequency at which equipment fails. I get some strange looks when people see a dog with a prong, a flat collar, an e-collar, a DD collar and a harness on all at the same time, and it's dragging a long line behind it while on a short leash
> 
> While moving to off leash training is always my goal, sometimes I have to manage a dog, and I do use equipment to train and reinforce some behaviors.
> 
> When I am fortunate enough to get a puppy (that isn't already screwed up) to work with, I use a leash very little, and I typically use a very thin slide leash just to guide the dog a bit. I try to be more fun than anything else in their environment. That usually keeps them pinned on me and not looking for something else to do.


I like to use the DD with a flat collar back up on a sturdy prong leash. I agree that good equipment is important. Pups are only leashed when there is danger present such as traffic and then it is only a simple sliplead. I don't begin leash work until they are about one year. All obedience for pups is done off leash similar to the methods of Sheila Booth in Purely Positive but without the leash. Much of what I do mirrors the methods of Stonnie Dennis as well especially regarding simultaneously training dogs / puppies.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CactusWren said:


> That's like saying good drivers shouldn't wear seatbelts.
> 
> A leash can theoretically fail. Recalls usually fail. If you're the 1 in 1000 who can pull it off, that's truly wonderful, but it does not describe the usual situation. The usual situation is the owner repeating come over and over while the dog ignores it, and either comes in for a sniff or to play or to fight.
> 
> ...


Umm, no. Recalls usually don't fail. If your dog is not recalling under distractions, then your dog has not mastered a recall. I don't know where you are getting your failed recall numbers from but I would suggest a new trainer if that is the results people are seeing. Around here in the city, most often if a dog fails its recall, it is only to linger to sniff a fire hydrant a little longer, not to bother someone else with a dog. 

Equipment isn't the only things that fail. Dogs slip out of their collars and leashes slip out of the hands of owners. I have seen this far more than I have seen a dog fail a recall. 

People where I live keep their out of control dogs leashed but sadly, some insist on bringing them to dog friendly areas such as popular parks, strip malls, etc. Be glad you don't have to deal with these out of control, leashed dogs and only see them on YouTube. It is rare for an out of control dog to be off leash around here. I guess laws and different areas present with different problems.

This is a good topic. Perhaps you should start a separate thread. It's not fair to OP to keep derailing the topic.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I can’t remember a time growing up where there was so much empasis on dogs playing with strange other dogs. To me sounds unnatural. I feel the emphasis can be counter productive. Sometimes it’s good to stay off the internet. I do remember a few people weary of karat because he would not acknowledge their dog at all on occasion he would want to put his big head over the dog but that was it. People seem to take it personal. Max does not trust strange dogs in his bubble. I have no need to change who he is. I can make sure he is behaved. I make sure I know what he is capable of. He has never harmed an animal. His behaved demeanor does not mean to push for introduction. Loose uncontrolled dogs though almost harmed me. I have not let his not wanting to greet and play with strange dogs effect the things I enjoy most with him. We have plenty of practice working out any kinks we have had and it has paid off. Let owners worry about their own uncontrolled unleash dogs this should not effect what you do with your dog. 

Obedience class is a place where you can practice obedience in a controlled environment around lots of dogs that are controlled and. Behaved. I found the beach has many distractions of all kinds not as controlled but lots of many different kind of distractions of all kinds. It is important you find a place where you are most comfortable with to practice your training around distractions. Most important enjoy the time you are with your dog . dogs have short lives make sure you build unforgettable memories- no living thing is perfect.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I have gotten a couple of notifications about the highlighted portion of this post. I think you are saying that off leash dogs without recall and manners have idiot owners. It could be interpreted to mean that all dogs that are off leash have idiot owners. You may want to clarify your statement a bit.


Clarify. Fine. If your dog is off leash and it runs at mine. It shouldn't be off leash. If your dog is off leash anywhere where it says "dogs must be on leash" you are in the wrong. If you have to repeat the word COME a dozen times you are in the wrong.
People like to yammer about rights. Well I have the "right" to express myself, that does not mean I can walk around punching people I don't like. I don't care how well behaved you think your dog is, if it is supposed to be leashed, in control, contained or whatever just do it. 

By definition an on leash dog is in control regardless of what it is doing on leash because the human is at the very least acting as an anchor. Unless you are talking about again "idiots" who leash a Saint to a six year old for example. 

In general the folks like me who go to unreal lengths to get our "out of control" dogs away from people are being responsible so to say that those people are the problem is insulting.

Just a short story: A lady I gave a puppy to told me this heartbreaking story when they applied to adopt. They lived in a small rural-ish area and had for years. They had a grown dog, exact age was I believe 4 or 5. The lived on a quiet dead end road that led to another seldom travelled road and it was at that intersection that the town placed the mailboxes. Every day mom would leash the dog and walk to the mailbox at the end of the road. One morning she could not find the leash but the dog was well trained and well behaved, well used to being off leash, so she opted to forgo the leash. At some point the dog darted across the road after a bunny or a bird and was struck by a car and killed. It was the only time the dog had ever done that. It was the only car that had travelled that road all morning.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Am I over thinking this, or is he showing signs of aggression/ being a bully?


 Basically, yeah. 


SitkatheGSD said:


> Thank you everyone!
> 
> To be clear, I have stopped bringing Sitka to the dog park, this was the first time in months, and I noticed this charging/challenging behaviour for the first time. Sitka's training has been going great lately with ignoring dogs on leash, basic commands, quick recall, etc. I brought him to the park to see how his training would be when there were so many distractions around. And I was pleasantly surprised that he did listen to my commands 80% of the time...
> 
> ...


Problem solved. You know your dog, you have a realistic impression and a good handle on whats the right plan for the two of you. Keep having fun,


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

My state's law is quite clear that a dog must be on leash AND under control.


----------



## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

This is getting a bit off topic, but I’d like to add while my dogs have a great recall and they are always off leash around my property (I live out in the country) when I take my Dobie hiking in well traveled areas he is always leashed. He doesn’t like other dogs and it’s annoying to say the least when other people have their albeit friendly dog roaming off leash that wants to approach me and my dog. Even though you or someone’s else’s dog might be the socialite of the party, others might not be so keen and it’s respectful to keep them contained. 

But I also think that a dog needs to also be able to run free, in the right situation. It does something for their soul and nothing can keep a smile off my face watching them.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

atomic said:


> This is getting a bit off topic, but I’d like to add while my dogs have a great recall and they are always off leash around my property (I live out in the country) when I take my Dobie hiking in well traveled areas he is always leashed. He doesn’t like other dogs and it’s annoying to say the least when other people have their albeit friendly dog roaming off leash that wants to approach me and my dog. Even though you or someone’s else’s dog might be the socialite of the party, others might not be so keen and it’s respectful to keep them contained.
> 
> But I also think that a dog needs to also be able to run free, in the right situation. It does something for their soul and nothing can keep a smile off my face watching them.


Right? I know of few greater joys in life than to watch my dogs running free in nature's playground! I would not own dogs if I could never offer them regular bouts of freedom to be just a dog as nature intended. It's what dogs do.

I do agree that people should recall their dogs when out hiking and they encounter other people and dogs.
That is just simply a common courtesy practiced where I live.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

This is why I love taking them to the farm. The joy on their faces when they see me turn into the side road, knowing where we are headed, is just pure gold. 5 acres to run as they please, except Crios, he gets 3 acres because he eats the chicken. We take Crios on the horse rides, and he loves that. Still keep a lead on him though, his recall sucks if he finds anything slightly shiny or more fun that running next to us. He’s the derpiest dog I’ve ever owned. I’m so looking forward to the day I can permanently move there!


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Clarify. Fine. If your dog is off leash and it runs at mine. It shouldn't be off leash. If your dog is off leash anywhere where it says "dogs must be on leash" you are in the wrong. If you have to repeat the word COME a dozen times you are in the wrong.
> People like to yammer about rights. Well I have the "right" to express myself, that does not mean I can walk around punching people I don't like. I don't care how well behaved you think your dog is, if it is supposed to be leashed, in control, contained or whatever just do it.
> 
> By definition an on leash dog is in control regardless of what it is doing on leash because the human is at the very least acting as an anchor. Unless you are talking about again "idiots" who leash a Saint to a six year old for example.
> ...


The reason I asked for clarification is that your original statement did not say that.



Sabis mom said:


> It's the idiots who own the perfect dogs that let them wander off leash and remain loose in yards who are the issue.


A perfect dog doesn't do anything you listed in your clarification. I think your statement would be just as concise and far less offensive if you didn't resort to name calling and sarcasm to try and get a point across.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@ David Winners I'll try to remember that. And I guess I'll keep my less then perfect dog locked in the house.


----------



## Sweet Stella (Feb 7, 2018)

I don't go to a dog park, but I take my dogs to a school after hours behind my house every day and one of my Shepherds will, at times, do this exact behavior with dogs he doesn't know. First off, I watch him closely when a dog we don't know approaches. If he locks on I can usually call him off with a stern verbal correction, but I also have an ecollar on him at all times when we leave the house in case he charges. 

In general, he's chill around female dogs and male dogs that ignore him. He also has some neighborhood dogs that he is friendly with and likes to be around. Any male dog that tries to compete with him or challenge him, or play with him will cause him to get dominant and rude very quick. So I don't put him in those situations. 

Over the years we've found other dogs in the area which have the energy he likes/tolerates, so we hang out with them. Unfortunately, some dogs just won't work with him, it sucks, especially when you like the owner, but that's just the way it is.

Observe your dog, learn his patterns, teach him what is acceptable, have emergency measures just in case, expose him to passive/aloof dogs, then put him in situations where he'll succeed.


----------

