# (another) impulse control thread



## RosiesPaw (8 mo ago)

Well, as we're getting to the 1 year mark we've definitely reached some training goals and I'm thrilled for someone with a GSD/Husky/Akita who has no real idea what they're doing 

Impulse control is always a big one. Rosie is very much food motivated and a lot of our training has been based on treats. since starting out we've always done a bit of training at meal time. the progression has been sit->sit stay->floor->floor stay->sit focus->come heel stay-> the release word is always OK

we've gotten to to the point where she can lay in front of the food bowl with a meal, knuckle bone, etc and wont touch it until released. She will sometimes, but rarely, break sit/stay etc and back off to me with a whine- maybe it's too hard for her to not dig in and she'd rather back off than eat without permission? This isn't really of concern, because over all, the impulse control with food is good at this level.

We're also working on general sit or floor (down) stay. It's pretty darn good in the house. Outside before or after a walk, waiting in front of the gate or front door unleashed, she's top shelf and the large majority of the time waits until OK is given.

Other than at this point, unless we're playing a game, her impulse control outside is nearly non-existent. In the yard, she comes when called (it's dropped the past 3 weeks as she's hit adolescence, so we get her if she doesn't follow command). It's what's going on outside the fence that has her and us beat. People walking by, dogs, whatever, she breaks her command and bolts to the fence. In the yard it's got to be worked on, but it's not a safety concern. there have been however, 3 instances in the past month or two when she was let out of the car or house before the gate was closed while someone was walking by and she bolted to them. Excluding one time when i bellowed a deep, deep resounding *NO*, each of these instances she blew off the command to stay and then the command to come. In this instance, one of us has walked over to her, leashed her up and walked her back to the house. 

Any thoughts on what we can do here other than making sure the gate is always closed? She's been pretty great on the off leash/leash dragging walks around the neighborhood (where i'm on high alert and holding a stores worth of treats), but it's that surprise thing moving by gets us.

thank you


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

RosiesPaw said:


> she blew off the command to stay and then the command to come. In this instance, one of us has walked over to her, leashed her up and walked her back to the house


If I remember correctly she's been doing this all along and there's no reason in her mind why she should ever obey when she finds something more interesting than listening to you.If you don't want her to blow you off you'll have to prevent any opportunity for her to do so. Correct her for disobeying a known command. Fairly and firmly enough so she is very unlikely to do it again.Leashing her and walking her indoors is not an adversive that she wants to avoid.


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## RosiesPaw (8 mo ago)

dogma13 said:


> If I remember correctly she's been doing this all along and there's no reason in her mind why she should ever obey when she finds something more interesting than listening to you.If you don't want her to blow you off you'll have to prevent any opportunity for her to do so. Correct her for disobeying a known command. Fairly and firmly enough so she is very unlikely to do it again.Leashing her and walking her indoors is not an adversive that she wants to avoid.


your memory serves you well, it has however, gotten, in our opinion much better.

I'm not sure and asking, what could be the appropriate preventative measure or strong correction? Keeping her on a long lead? Start e-collar training? i'm truly at a loss of where to move with stronger corrections and preventative measures


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

RosiesPaw said:


> your memory serves you well, it has however, gotten, in our opinion much better.
> 
> I'm not sure and asking, what could be the appropriate preventative measure or strong correction? Keeping her on a long lead? Start e-collar training? i'm truly at a loss of where to move with stronger corrections and preventative measures


Herman Sprenger prong collar works very well.

If your dog shakes off prong correction like terminator then you are not correcting hard enough.

If you are constantly having to correct you are not doing it right. What you'll find is that once the dog understands you'll rarely have to correct them very hard after that.

Nagging corrections are worse than a few solid corrections. The intensity of the correction is going to depend on the dog.

That is my experience.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

Eventually, you shouldn't even need a collar. 
High drive working line German Shepherd.

















Pics for you @dogma13 😉


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## RosiesPaw (8 mo ago)

hanshund said:


> Herman Sprenger prong collar works very well.
> 
> If your dog shakes off prong correction like terminator then you are not correcting hard enough.
> 
> ...


Herm Sprenger and a couple of come to jesus moments has done wonders for walking. 

Can you explain how to apply this to an off leash scenario?


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

RosiesPaw said:


> Herm Sprenger and a couple of come to jesus moments has done wonders for walking.
> 
> Can you explain how to apply this to an off leash scenario?


I'm not sure what you are asking?


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

RosiesPaw said:


> In the yard it's got to be worked on, but it's not a safety concern. there have been however, 3 instances in the past month or two when she was let out of the car or house before the gate was closed while someone was walking by and she bolted to them. Excluding one time when i bellowed a deep, deep resounding *NO*, each of these instances she blew off the command to stay and then the command to come. In this instance, one of us has walked over to her, leashed her up and walked her back to the house.


Okay, I read it again. I think I know what you are asking.

I am not sure if you have proofed your commands in other areas beside your yard?

You need to be able to enforce your commands CONSISTENTLY.

In the case of the car, I would do as you did and mark with a NO!, walk over and correct her. Then ask her to perform a command such as down and praise her. If I had no leash and collar on her at the time I might just mark with NO! and smack her bum. Nothing outrageous, just let her know that what she did was wrong. If you are using NO as a marker then you should follow up with some consequence.

Then learn from the experience and try and be more prepared.

Depending on the context, I may do what I said above or I may mark with NO! and correct her. Then bring her back to the car and tell her to "stay" again. Let her stay for a while and then walk back over and praise/reward her.

It doesn't sound like her stay or recall command is solid. I would work on that in different environments/distractions using a long line. Cut the handle off so it doesn't catch on anything and let her drag it.

I also use a lot of play to teach impulse control such as throw ball and have dog in down position. Then give release cue. You can add duration as dog gets better. Or, have dog perform a command and reward with ball, tug, etc.

I don't really do much drill type obedience. I mostly just live life and praise the things I want and correct what I don't want.

I do initially teach dog commands with food/toys and fade to praise/petting. I still occasionally give food treats too whenever I feel like. Mostly pet and praise though.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

RosiesPaw said:


> your memory serves you well, it has however, gotten, in our opinion much better.
> 
> I'm not sure and asking, what could be the appropriate preventative measure or strong correction? Keeping her on a long lead? Start e-collar training? i'm truly at a loss of where to move with stronger corrections and preventative measures


You know your dog and how sensitive or determined she is. It's really not possible for anyone online to know what is appropriate. Your NO! and a collar pop _firm enough to stop her in her tracks_ might be all the adversive she needs.No nagging!A prong takes a minimum of force. The tips are round and it's like dozens of fingertips poking her neck at once. It's very uncomfortable only when popped.Otherwise it lays flat.hanshund gave good advice.
Recalling immediately is so important for her safety. It's non negotiable. E collar training is a good option if you can get some hands on help. It's easy to screw it up.


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## RosiesPaw (8 mo ago)

hanshund said:


> Okay, I read it again. I think I know what you are asking.
> 
> I am not sure if you have proofed your commands in other areas beside your yard?
> 
> ...


thank you for the clear explanation, you got what i was asking, which was "how to enforce a command when she is not on leash beside me if walking over and getting her isn't enough?". your explaining that i yes, I need to go to her, say no, maybe a smack on the bum, but then return her to the car, and give the stay command followed by praise/reward makes a lot of sense. this is an outline and something i can work with. sometimes it helps to have some directions shared =)




dogma13 said:


> You know your dog and how sensitive or determined she is. It's really not possible for anyone online to know what is appropriate. Your NO! and a collar pop _firm enough to stop her in her tracks_ might be all the adversive she needs.No nagging!A prong takes a minimum of force. The tips are round and it's like dozens of fingertips poking her neck at once. It's very uncomfortable only when popped.Otherwise it lays flat.hanshund gave good advice.
> Recalling immediately is so important for her safety. It's non negotiable. E collar training is a good option if you can get some hands on help. It's easy to screw it up.


i understand that no one online can really know what's appropriate for my dog - one reason i've been off the internet, looking for tips and what not for the past few months is that i've been able to get a lot done by continuing to get to know my dog with less thinking, more doing- right now i'm laid up with covid and thinking more... i'm wondering about options and ideas more than hard and fast answers. I guess i'm not communicating well via internet.

the "NO" and a collar pop which stops her in the tracks has made walking a dream, she's become engaged and more aware. rarely does she require a snap while on leash these days.

I am hesitant to go the E collar route due to the ease of messing it up and still, I'm just unsure what else to do. It's like, would working on recall in the real world with a long lead would mean taking her to the town center or the shopping plaza, letting her walk ahead, recall, collar pop if disobeyed? I've never seen anyone doing this, so it seems almost odd to me. Not to mention, I'm afraid of her running down a trail or creek bed and getting lost.

thank you


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

RosiesPaw said:


> thank you for the clear explanation, you got what i was asking, which was "how to enforce a command when she is not on leash beside me if walking over and getting her isn't enough?". your explaining that i yes, I need to go to her, say no, maybe a smack on the bum, but then return her to the car, and give the stay command followed by praise/reward makes a lot of sense. this is an outline and something i can work with. sometimes it helps to have some directions shared =)


*"I need to go to her, say no, maybe a smack on the bum"*

Just for clarification, you need to mark the bad behaviour with NO! - FIRST - then correct. This is important.

Think of it as taking a picture of the moment she breaks her down/stay. The "NO" marker is the picture you've taken. Then you go to her and correct her. The marker is allowing you to delay the consequence but she will still connect the consequence with breaking the stay. The marker is giving clarity to what you are correcting her for.

It is the same for "Yes" marker or clicker. You are taking picture of correct behaviour and it allows the reward to be delayed.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

I first learned this from Michael Ellis and I'm pretty sure Haz did too. Haz's video on this is a good quick reference.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

@RosiesPaw 

The other thing is that just because your dog understands your command in the yard/house doesn't automatically transfer to new environments. The fair thing to do is to teach the dog commands using treats/toy in different environments so they fully understand what you want. This shouldn't really take long. Then, once the dog understands command in different environments you can begin holding the dog accountable with appropriate punishment. 

Maybe you know all that already but it is something to think about. No harm in going back to learning phase if you think your dog doesn't fully understand what is expected.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

a verbal correction, followed by an approach with a physical reprimand, used on a dog that doesn’t have a clear understanding of your expectations can very easily lead to keep away behavior. put her on a long line and go back to basics.
when measuring improvements, in cases of breaking a command or failing a recall to take off after a stimulus - it’s not as simple as, she only did it 4x this week instead of 5x… giving chase is highly reinforcing (highly!). if she got a point for each time she responds perfectly, and loses 20 points for each time she doesn’t - do the math. or….. think of each success as a deposit into the bank account, the fence is your overdraft protection plan but you’ve still gotta learn to manage your money.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

RosiesPaw said:


> It's like, would working on recall in the real world with a long lead would mean taking her to the town center or the shopping plaza, letting her walk ahead, recall, collar pop if disobeyed? I've never seen anyone doing this, so it seems almost odd to me


Only if you're going to spend a lot of time in the town center off leash with her in the future. Practice in environments where you are going to spend time.That's how I worked with all my dogs - a long line so they can sniff and explore, then call them back and reward. There's no other way I can think of to have the dog understand he must always comply.When introducing the e collar they still need that line to guide them until they understand what the vibration or static means.If you were ever to take an advanced OB class that's exactly what they teach and encourage you to practice. Taking classes would be a good idea for you. Hooking up with a classmate to practice with one day a week would make the training lose the oddness.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Here's a video that demonstrates long line recall practice. She uses a stuffed dog at the beginning (silly) to show what not to do. This dog is already trained of course but this is the process.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Bo's impulse control 😅


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> Bo' impulse control 😅


Lol, no drool that’s a plus!


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## RosiesPaw (8 mo ago)

hanshund said:


> @RosiesPaw
> 
> The other thing is that just because your dog understands your command in the yard/house doesn't automatically transfer to new environments. The fair thing to do is to teach the dog commands using treats/toy in different environments so they fully understand what you want. This shouldn't really take long. Then, once the dog understands command in different environments you can begin holding the dog accountable with appropriate punishment.
> 
> Maybe you know all that already but it is something to think about. No harm in going back to learning phase if you think your dog doesn't fully understand what is expected.


I appreciate your help and comments. We've spent a good amount of time since we first starting leaving the property practicing basic OB on leash in different places with different stimulus. I think more than anything, we've been lacking in punitive follow through and spent more time "nagging" than making a clear command/reward system with certain things.



Fodder said:


> a verbal correction, followed by an approach with a physical reprimand, used on a dog that doesn’t have a clear understanding of your expectations can very easily lead to keep away behavior. put her on a long line and go back to basics.
> when measuring improvements, in cases of breaking a command or failing a recall to take off after a stimulus - it’s not as simple as, she only did it 4x this week instead of 5x… giving chase is highly reinforcing (highly!). if she got a point for each time she responds perfectly, and loses 20 points for each time she doesn’t - do the math. or….. think of each success as a deposit into the bank account, the fence is your overdraft protection plan but you’ve still gotta learn to manage your money.


this makes a lot of sense. I work as a counselor in a school with young children and talk with teachers about how many of our students with myriad behaviors and trauma responses built in (always in fight or flight) simply can't cognitively understand what the expectation is and that we need to get back to basics- maybe the child needs, along with understanding and clear communication, a 1:1 aide for a while, a sticker chart, or a consequence at times- this is the long line in my line of work  thanks for describing this in a way that I understand.



dogma13 said:


> Only if you're going to spend a lot of time in the town center off leash with her in the future. Practice in environments where you are going to spend time.That's how I worked with all my dogs - a long line so they can sniff and explore, then call them back and reward. There's no other way I can think of to have the dog understand he must always comply.When introducing the e collar they still need that line to guide them until they understand what the vibration or static means.If you were ever to take an advanced OB class that's exactly what they teach and encourage you to practice. Taking classes would be a good idea for you. Hooking up with a classmate to practice with one day a week would make the training lose the oddness.


Thank you also for this explanation and example video with Scooby lol. 

After our AM walk and some OB refresher/expectation setter, we went to a new to Rosie, exciting paved trail system around a marsh. Lots to explore on the long biothane lead we've had sitting for a while. this place is filled with tall, stiff grass, countless birds, voles, mice, and people. all of her favorite things. we rocked!

long story short, i've realized that her poor behavior is largely indicative of me slacking in both keeping up with and expanding our training department. As I was more proactive, even just today, her response and recall has been sharper. I think that really making those few corrections with HS this morning, and wildly rewarding + behavior, was a good move. Just now, and maybe it was too much to ask or setting her up to fail, but i directed to her to sit/stay just inside the gate, closed the gate, walked out of site to the mail boxes, and she did indeed move not an inch til released. I've gotta keep it up =)

Going through 2 new, completely different jobs in the past few months has taken a toll and also been my excuse to be a lazy trainer. Gotta stay sharp and up to date. anyhow, i'm rambling.

thank you all for these tips and reminders


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I totally understand how you want to just walk,chill,and decompress. As opposed to yet more work with Rosie.My husband worked with special needs children too.I'm glad you're back on track


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

RosiesPaw said:


> I appreciate your help and comments. We've spent a good amount of time since we first starting leaving the property practicing basic OB on leash in different places with different stimulus. I think more than anything, we've been lacking in punitive follow through and spent more time "nagging" than making a clear command/reward system with certain things.


No problem. I just want to say a few more things in regards to what I said about walking up to dog and smacking it in the bum. Fodder brought up a great point and the one thing I didn't mention was that my "No" marker has already been conditioned and the dog understands what it means. That is important and is one reason I don't have issues with keep away. I wouldn't mark with No and walk up to the dog and smack it if it was the first time he heard the word.

Here is a great thread imo if you would like to further understand No marker. Pay attention to what "Baillif" is saying as he is very experienced. Although, I'm not suggesting you read to do what he does but rather to increase your knowledge:









How to teach a solid "NO!"?


How do you teach a dog an unquestioned "NO!"? And how do you teach "OUT!"? AKA get out of my face for a second. Over time I feel like a dog understands the means, but I'm curious if there's really a proper/recommended way to teach these things.




www.germanshepherds.com


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Mr.Baillif used to give the impression that he viewed his dogs merely as objects to compete and win accolades for himself. I'm not declaring that as true, but many of his posts read that way.
No as as a marker with a clear meaning is just as important as the Yes marker,agreed. I do find myself using the word in more of a warning tone of voice sometimes - the dog looks like it's thinking about putting it's paws on the counter to check out that wonderful smell, "Don't even think about it noooo....". Hey! and No! are interchangeable in our house,meaning stop that immediately.Of course my dogs are all mature and understand the nuances.


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## RosiesPaw (8 mo ago)

this thread has been such a wonderful reminder of getting back on track =) even just the past 2 days, due to MY shift in behavior, we're seeing some different things. Of course it's only 2 days but a few walks with the HS and some firmer than usual corrections (my girls a softie) that stopped her in the tracks, she's not only listening more and paying more attention to me, she's calmer and more content throughout the day. I'm thinking about walking as training in a bit of a different way in this time. Setting the tone of communication and expectation. I see a bright future ahead 



hanshund said:


> No problem. I just want to say a few more things in regards to what I said about walking up to dog and smacking it in the bum. Fodder brought up a great point and the one thing I didn't mention was that my "No" marker has already been conditioned and the dog understands what it means. That is important and is one reason I don't have issues with keep away. I wouldn't mark with No and walk up to the dog and smack it if it was the first time he heard the word.
> 
> Here is a great thread imo if you would like to further understand No marker. Pay attention to what "Baillif" is saying as he is very experienced. Although, I'm not suggesting you read to do what he does but rather to increase your knowledge:
> 
> ...


we're pretty low on power and internet today as we got hit with a very intense earthquake last night, but i'll dig through that thread a bit more when we've got some power and service.



dogma13 said:


> Mr.Baillif used to give the impression that he viewed his dogs merely as objects to compete and win accolades for himself. I'm not declaring that as true, but many of his posts read that way.
> No as as a marker with a clear meaning is just as important as the Yes marker,agreed. I do find myself using the word in more of a warning tone of voice sometimes - the dog looks like it's thinking about putting it's paws on the counter to check out that wonderful smell, "Don't even think about it noooo....". Hey! and No! are interchangeable in our house,meaning stop that immediately._*Of course my dogs are all mature and understand the nuances.*_


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm glad you're ok.Take care!


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## RosiesPaw (8 mo ago)

holy smokes! today was a special day. We got walloped with some weather today as there are a couple storms coming in off the ocean- trash barrels blowing in the street, loose tarps waving like flags, stuff like that. Rosie really digs stormy weather, so I figured we'd go on a nice long birthday walk in the wind and rain. I didn't plan to and hence didn't bring the long line, but when I saw that a park and playground that were empty aside from a murder of Crows and a dozens of Robin picking for worms, I figured it was time to put our off leash (leash dragging in this case) OB and recall work from the past few weeks to the test. She generally takes off like a bat out of heck after birds on our property and although she was dragging the leash, NOT ONCE did Rosie take off after the birds. In fact, anytime she got more than 5 feet away from me, I either said "ah uh" or "Rosie, come" and she came right to my side in heel. From heel we worked floor/platz/stay. she was golden. 

Not sure that we're (she might be, but my nerves aren't) ready to get it going when there are dogs and people out there on a sunny day, but this felt really good.

thanks for your suggestions and support 😁


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