# How many of you acquired pedigree purebred GSDs?



## onyxkaiser (May 21, 2014)

And how many just have "purebred" with no pedigree?

Or a mixed breed?


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

I have a purebred but no pedigree because I was stupid and payed the byb before getting his paperwork only to find out that dad wasn't registered. :/ I know he's pure though.

*-*Summer*-*


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Delgado's a purebred with pedigree, Canadian Kennel Club registration


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Purebred with papers.


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## graciesmom (Jun 10, 2006)

Jazz is a pedigreed purebred and registered with the Canadian Kennel Club.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Many of people have said "Ty is all GSD" and there is even a rumor of him coming from czech lines lol. No papers though no tatoos in his ear, nothing.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

Purebred with pedigree.... and cute as a button too!


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## Girth (Jan 27, 2011)

One mix from a rescue organization and the other two pure with no papers off craig's list.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

All 3 are show dogs, so yes, purebred. Registered with AKC, have a 5 generation pedigree printed for each dog. 


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Purebred with pedigree.. I believe CKC. His breeder was a very smart BYB or didn't know what kind of dogs he had.. either way, Titan is wonderful.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I have two purebred dogs both with CKC, AKC, UKC registration.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

I own 3 purebred GSDs, registered and with papers. 

IMO every dog has a pedigree. Some purebred, some mixed. I know some refer to "having a pedigree" as a status symbol but I look at it more as a pedigree shows the family tree, lineage or ancestry. Every dog came from somewhere and every dog has ancestors.

Not all dogs have papers, are registered or are purebred.

Just my 2c.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

I pure bred dog here.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Cruz........pure bred with pedigree.

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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

5 purebred papered GSD.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't understand why it matters. The papers do not make a dog or a pet any better. People who own purebred dogs are not necessarily any more knowledgeable, nor does it guaranty that they are better owners. Papers should be considered for showing and breeding purposes, beyond that a dog is a dog, and some of the best have been mongrels. On the other hand, people who have registered dogs are in no way responsible for, nor insensitive to the problem of dogs in shelters. I don't understand why we need a public, stand up and be counted show of whose dogs have papers and whose dogs do not. 

Sorry. I know I am probably reading way too much into this, but I think there is a chasm between those who rescue and those who buy from breeders already, and I just do not see the merit in displaying our dogs' breed-authenticity.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> I don't understand why it matters. The papers do not make a dog or a pet any better. People who own purebred dogs are not necessarily any more knowledgeable, nor does it guaranty that they are better owners. Papers should be considered for showing and breeding purposes, beyond that a dog is a dog, and some of the best have been mongrels. On the other hand, people who have registered dogs are in no way responsible for, nor insensitive to the problem of dogs in shelters. I don't understand why we need a public, stand up and be counted show of whose dogs have papers and whose dogs do not.
> 
> Sorry. I know I am probably reading way too much into this, but I think there is a chasm between those who rescue and those who buy from breeders already, and I just do not see the merit in displaying our dogs' breed-authenticity.


Agree. A great dog is a great dog, regardless of pedigree. And sometimes in spite of it.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Hans is CKC. Canadian.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

My younger male, Varick, has a pedigree and AKC papers. My first GSD, Harley, does not. 
I like pedigrees; they tell you a little bit about your dog's history, and what to expect in regards to health and temperament.


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## DixieGSD (Aug 22, 2012)

Pure but no papers. She looks and acts like a german shepherd tho lol


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

selzer said:


> I don't understand why it matters. The papers do not make a dog or a pet any better. I don't understand why we need a public, stand up and be counted show of whose dogs have papers and whose dogs do not.
> 
> Sorry. I know I am probably reading way too much into this, but I think there is a chasm between those who rescue and those who buy from breeders already, and I just do not see the merit in displaying our dogs' breed-authenticity.


Sheesh. Can't a poster just do a survey without someone getting all offended and reading too much into it?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sunflowers said:


> Sheesh. Can't a poster just do a survey without someone getting all offended and reading too much into it?


Yes, and no. Why is it public? Don't you have to set that deliberately? I do. Mine always come out as general surveys that you cannot read how each person answered. 

I am not offended, but I don't like the premise. Do we have a person that has a new pedigreed dog and is excited by it and thinks its grand and wants to line up with other pedigreed dogs?

Do we have a poster who has a dog with no papers and wants to know if people will hold that against him?

Do we have a poster who has a shepherd mix from a shelter and thinks like the PETA people that people who want purebred dogs are like Nazis or KKK people?

Beyond the showing and breeding and working sections (if you are looking for specific traits out of specific lines/dogs), whether dogs are purebred with pedigrees or mixtures should not make any of us feel any way about the individuals who own them or their dogs. It is nobody's business how we acquired our dogs and whether they have papers or not. And, as I have said, I think there is enough animosity between the groups, the showline and the working line, the rescues and the shelters, the shelters and the breeders, and so forth. It doesn't help any of us really. Not as a breed it does not.

If the poll wasn't public, I wouldn't have thought another thing of it.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Gus is an authentic (whatever that means) purebred registered with CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) Germany Shepherd.
I don't see anyone dissing those that are not.

Carmen.....Gus is authentic right?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

selzer said:


> Yes, and no. Why is it public? Don't you have to set that deliberately? I do. Mine always come out as general surveys that you cannot read how each person answered.
> 
> I am not offended, but I don't like the premise. Do we have a person that has a new pedigreed dog and is excited by it and thinks its grand and wants to line up with other pedigreed dogs?
> 
> ...


If you don't like the premise of the thread, don't participate. There are lots of threads I don't like...I skip them.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

This is downright silly! Most of the ones who responded also posted. I don't mind whoever it is knowing that my dog has papers. if this subject bothers them, they will avoid it. I don't really see the controversy.


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

Athena and Sinister are both AKC. I like knowing their pedigree and health background.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I voted "purebred pedigree" but in reality I have two purebred GSDs (AKC, UKC, USCA registered) and two mixed breeds.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I don't have a problem, my guy is a rescue OS WL GSD no papers.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Purebred with pedigree.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

GSD-Purebred-with papers (AKC), although it took almost two years to get them.

Toy Poodle-Purebred with papers (AKC)

Australian Shepherd-Purebred, no papers
Sheilah


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I like pedigrees; they tell you a little bit about your dog's history, and what to expect in regards to health and temperament.


I agree, I have three purebred(doesn't mean well bred!) and only one has pedigree/papers. 
The two that are not papered are mysteries as far as their quirks and lines go. I can assume anything, but without proof, it is just assumtions.
I would love to know the genetics behind both of them, and I tried my hardest to trace it, both dead ends. 

You'd think anyone who is breeding would be of the same mindset and also keep track of where their pups end up. But the passion for the breed must not be part of some breeders agenda.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, I have three purebred(doesn't mean well bred!) and only one has pedigree/papers.
> The two that are not papered are mysteries as far as their quirks and lines go. I can assume anything, but without proof, it is just assumtions.
> I would love to know the genetics behind both of them, and I tried my hardest to trace it, both dead ends.
> 
> *You'd think anyone who is breeding would be of the same mindset and also keep track of where their pups end up. But the passion for the breed must not be part of some breeders agenda.*


:thumbup:


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## SoCal Rebell (Jun 3, 2009)

The 3 Ps purebred, Pedigree and papers. And to know lis linage going back 5 generations for health reasons. Most important no cross breeding.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> You'd think anyone who is breeding would be of the same mindset and also keep track of where their pups end up. But the passion for the breed must not be part of some breeders agenda.


I know, right?

Sometimes the opinions on this forum are rather baffling. :shrug:


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

For all who insist on full bred with papers and familial lineage. List yours. And prove you are worthy of owning even a goldfish. Cant or dont want too? No wonder. Not many groups as snotty and self serving as the hoity toity dog breeding world. Other then horse showing/breeding "people".


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Skywalkers Mom said:


> For all who insist on full bred with papers and familial lineage. List yours. And prove you are worthy of owning even a goldfish. Cant or dont want too? No wonder. Not many groups as snotty and self serving as the hoity toity dog breeding world. Other then horse showing/breeding "people".


Another one of these bizarre posts from you.... once again, what is the point of this??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Skywalkers Mom said:


> For all who insist on full bred with papers and familial lineage. List yours. And prove you are worthy of owning even a goldfish. Cant or dont want too? No wonder. Not many groups as snotty and self serving as the hoity toity dog breeding world. Other then horse showing/breeding "people".


I would insist on it after having dogs with health and temperament problems because their breeders refused to breed responsibly. Has nothing whatsoever to do with snotty or self serving, but preserving the breed. Not sure if worthy of owning a goldfish proof is necessary for supporting a good responsible breeder.

Purebred or 'fullbred' doesn't mean well bred.....


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Skywalkers Mom said:


> For all who insist on full bred with papers and familial lineage. List yours. And prove you are worthy of owning even a goldfish. Cant or dont want too? No wonder. Not many groups as snotty and self serving as the hoity toity dog breeding world. Other then horse showing/breeding "people".


Then why are you here?:crazy:


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Echo is purebred with no papers, Delta is AKC'd. It's been really interesting talking to others about Delta's lineage as well as watch her siblings from a previous breeding grow. After the health and temperament disaster that was Echo, I will always want to know as much about my dogs as possible, and knowing their pedigree is a big part of that.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Skywalkers Mom said:


> For all who insist on full bred with papers and familial lineage. List yours. And prove you are worthy of owning even a goldfish. Cant or dont want too? No wonder. Not many groups as snotty and self serving as the hoity toity dog breeding world. Other then horse showing/breeding "people".


wow, already with an attitude!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Skywalkers Mom said:


> For all who insist on full bred with papers and familial lineage. List yours. And prove you are worthy of owning even a goldfish. Cant or dont want too? No wonder. Not many groups as snotty and self serving as the hoity toity dog breeding world. Other then horse showing/breeding "people".


I wish my mom would have screened my dad for health issues before breeding with him, because of him I have both blood clotting genes, OCD and anxiety/fearful/nervousness around people. :crazy:

I also have Scleroderma and diabetes. I have poor genetics, I am the product of backyard breeding parents. :laugh:

Also, owning dogs is easier than owning fish, I can't tell you how many fish I have killed, I haven't killed any dogs though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saphire said:


> If you don't like the premise of the thread, don't participate. There are lots of threads I don't like...I skip them.



Sometimes people just go with the flow until someone asks why. Sometimes when someone asks why, why does make a difference. If we all didn't participate in threads that make us stop and think, then what is the point of a forum? 

Really? 

There are good reasons to get a dog with a pedigree, of course there are. But once we have our dogs, we should all be equals on a discussion forum.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Just my opinion. I dont think OP intended this being a who's better, paper or not papered dogs.. I truly think it was a curiosity and people are taking this way out of proportion. Should I then asume every person who posts about want to see pictures of the balck and tans or sables or whatever, don't care about any other colored GSD? Seriously people.. stop getting so offended over things.. it makes it impossible to post anything on here anymore. 

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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Mine is pure bred with papers but I haven't turned in the paper to the akc and now I have to pay the dang late registration fee


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

yeah, maybe she hit the public button -- however you do that, to include everyone? It looks like she is pretty new.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I hope she didn't intend that, since since the pedigree's only as good as the dogs behind it. There a _whole _lot of puppy mills in the Midwest producing pet-store pups that are "pure with pedigree," but that's not going to get you any "cool kid" points here. And they're apparently in the same survey category as people who buy world-class dogs from top breeders.

And how about a category for "pure" with _adoption _papers from breed rescue? Kind of goofy to have one category that includes both people who support legitimate rescues and people who support BYB who sell dogs out of the back of a truck in a Walmart parking lot.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Sue, for someone that just went after everyone for "chasing off" newbies, and saying that the forum should be a place that people can vent without it turning into a debate.... I'm really surprised at the hypocrisy in your posts on this thread compared to everything you were accusing everyone of a short time ago on other threads... Something about how "violent and mean" everyone was getting. Stop scaring people off, sue! Sometimes a break is a good idea.


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## lennyb (Jan 1, 2014)

Diago is pure, registered with papers and Bandit is a mixed rescue. But IMO I really don't care. I personally think people put to much importance on pedigrees. I understand wanting to know a dogs lineage and potential health issues but if the dog loves you and you love it then does it really matter? Just because a dogs pure doesn't mean they'll be stable or never develop health issues. I personally will never judge a dog by papers, colors, or lineage but by their heart and personality. JMO..


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## tottie86 (Aug 23, 2013)

Purebred with pedigree 


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## DonnaKay (Jan 20, 2014)

Purebred with papers.

Out of all the dogs I've ever had, 2 were purebred with papers (both collies) and 6 were kill-shelter rescues (one of which I believe was a pure flat-coated retriever but can't be sure and 2 were GSD mixes). I decided to get a purebred this time.

I don't see myself as a purebred lover or a rescue lover. I'm a dog lover, that simple. And that's how I see everyone here... bunch of dog lovers, specifically GSD. If you have papers, great. If you rescued, great. Either way, we're all sharing our love of GSDs and dogs. And that's a good thing. :hug:


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## Alice13 (Feb 21, 2014)

Mine is purebred but we are yet to receive her papers. Since I personally met the breeder and saw her mother and litter mates I know I wasn't cheated. Besides, I found the breeder through a common friend.

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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Over the years I've had all of the above. 

Right now I have one AKC registered WGSL from rescue. One looks GSD (mama was a full German Shepherd ) with no papers rescue. and two shelter mixes that are lots of stuff but no GSD.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

selzer said:


> There are good reasons to get a dog with a pedigree, of course there are. But once we have our dogs, we should all be equals on a discussion forum.


So ya mean my Czech line that goes all the way back to Horand ain't speshull?

Dang...


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

Lucie is purebred registered with the akc and we have her pedigree


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Skywalkers Mom said:


> For all who insist on full bred with papers and familial lineage. List yours. And prove you are worthy of owning even a goldfish. Cant or dont want too? No wonder. Not many groups as snotty and self serving as the hoity toity dog breeding world. Other then horse showing/breeding "people".


I have purebred dogs and I show horses. I don't have a gold fish, but I have a pond out back that has fish in it. Does that count? Do I still get to be hoity toity? I've been toity before, but never hoity toity.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Lilie said:


> I have purebred dogs and I show horses. I don't have a gold fish, but I have a pond out back that has fish in it. Does that count? Do I still get to be hoity toity? I've been toity before, but never hoity toity.


Sorry, no. 
Outside fish don't qualify.
You need the inside fish for the hoity.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> Sorry, no.
> Outside fish don't qualify.
> You need the inside fish for the hoity.


Well, if we keep getting the rain we've been getting, those fish _are_ going to be in the house. At least I'll have something to look forward to!!!


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Couch fishin would be awesome.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

DobbyDad said:


> Couch fishin would be awesome.


:lurking::gonefishing:

:spittingcoffee:


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

I was trying to make a point. Sorry that in some it didnt come thru. We raised show horses, Arabians. Too much BS involved so we switched to Endurance riding. Just love your animals in their own right and not judge the not pure bred. Actually I guess a few have proved my point and thank you.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Skywalkers Mom said:


> I was trying to make a point. Sorry that in some it didnt come thru. We raised show horses, Arabians. Too much BS involved so we switched to Endurance riding. Just love your animals in their own right and not judge the not pure bred. Actually I guess a few have proved my point and thank you.


And just what point is that? 
Oh, wait, I know. That you're judgmental! :wild:


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Skywalkers Mom said:


> I was trying to make a point. Sorry that in some it didnt come thru. We raised show horses, Arabians. Too much BS involved so we switched to Endurance riding. Just love your animals in their own right and not judge the not pure bred. Actually I guess a few have proved my point and thank you.



Wait, who proved your point? 

All everyone on this thread has said is that they love their dogs, regardless of where they come from. Not one person here doesn't love and cherish their dog. Personally, my dog's papers aren't a "status symbol," they're just a way for me to be able to do some research- mostly just for fun. I like learning about my TB's bloodlines in much the same way; it's a hobby. That being said, it is nice to at least have an idea what I'm dealing with health and temperament-wise, especially after my first dog having major issues. That doesn't mean I think my second dog is "better" than my first or anything like that.

Bear in mind that many people here also purchase dogs for sport so pedigrees really do matter... That doesn't mean they love their dogs any less than us "pet people". It also doesn't mean they are snobs- some of the kindest, most helpful people I've met on this board are very involved sport people, while some of the nastiest, most judgmental people on this board are pet owners. Those posts you make are kind of the pot calling the kettle black... You come across as being just as "hoity toity" as the people you are judging. Just take a step back, get to know some of the great folks here, and realize that every person here loves their dogs tremendously. 


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

This was the point:


Skywalkers Mom said:


> We raised show horses, Arabians.


... and the rest of you are just the common plebs.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

LoveEcho said:


> It also doesn't mean they are snobs- some of the kindest, most helpful people I've met on this board are very involved sport people, while some of the nastiest, most judgmental people on this board are pet owners. Those posts you make are kind of the pot calling the kettle black... You come across as being just as "hoity toity" as the people you are judging. Just take a step back, get to know some of the great folks here, and realize that every person here loves their dogs tremendously.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Agreed. 

When someone goes the "snob/hoity toity" way and gets all critical, it just shows that they have much to learn.

We wanted a specific type of GSD, for a specific purpose, so we set out to find one to suit our needs. Couldn't care less if others know, or like, his pedigree. I got what I needed, and if anyone has a problem with that, well... that really is their problem.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> Sue, for someone that just went after everyone for "chasing off" newbies, and saying that the forum should be a place that people can vent without it turning into a debate.... I'm really surprised at the hypocrisy in your posts on this thread compared to everything you were accusing everyone of a short time ago on other threads... Something about how "violent and mean" everyone was getting. Stop scaring people off, sue! Sometimes a break is a good idea.


What and leave the forum to you? Not today. I kind of remember going after people for educating newbies, after they brought their puppy home, when they really did not ask for opinions on the breeder. And for beating people over the head with their opinions on whose fault it was when their dog was slapped in a puppy socialization class. Expressing an opinion, and having a question about why a poll about how you acquired your dog, or rather whether or not your dog was pure and could prove it is public, is kind of a different story. I rarely look at whom I am responding to, so I am an equal opportunity offender, and tick off my friends as often as not. It dawned on me last night to check whether the OP was new or not, and at that time, I posted that it may have been a simple mistake from someone unfamiliar with creating polls.

But go on DaniFani if you must. Calling people hypocrits is kind of like calling people hoity toity, isn't it. And it generally says more about the person doing the talking than the person getting labeled.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

KNPV GSD, no papers. 

Hanging in the hotel in Oklahoma.









David Winners


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

David Winners said:


> KNPV GSD, no papers.
> 
> Hanging in the hotel in Oklahoma.
> 
> ...


And no paper in the world can make her any better than she already is!

I can't help but add a caption to this photo...

"You bad. Go for it."

Susan


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> But go on DaniFani if you must. Calling people hypocrits is kind of like calling people hoity toity, isn't it. And it generally says more about the person doing the talking than the person getting labeled.


Aww man I soooo wanted to post this last night:








But I held back because I did not want to be that guy!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

opcorn:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

But seriously all the folks registered and active on this board and there are only 13 dogs and 1( gsd/mix) without papers??


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

MODERATOR HAT ON:!:!:!:

Knock it off. Personal attacks on other members are not allowed on this board. If you have an issue with another member, take it private. 

Everyone is allowed to express opinions, as long as they do not insult or demean another member. 

If it continues, parties will receive an official warning. 

HAT OFF. 

OP, I have rescued and bought. Some with pedigrees, some without. Makes no difference to me. A good dog is a good dog. I don't need papers to prove it. 


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> opcorn:


the last time it came out the thread got closed really quick. did not get a chance to enjoy a circus...


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Heck I get them for free when they are two to three years of age Lots of folk spend a lot of money for good pups Then they find the dog way to hot to intense to smart and maybe borderline dangerous These folk got the wrong breed 
I put up with what I have to work with take my chances get bit from time to time Learning how to communicate with each other After a year I have a good dog to start with Most times I pass them along after a few years when I have confidence in the dog
When I get one that I really like I keep that one Old or young , show or high performance 
Like the one I have now 2 1/2 year old high performance stock I am the fifth owner He had issues almost dangerous He has a hard bite  Had him now eight months He is a firecracker big powerful tons of drive intelligent protective social and good looking His issues now dog aggression and swiming Classes for the aggression The swimming he has passed 50 mins straight swimming He chases rocks and fish I got lucky after fifteen years I got the one in a thousand imo 
The down side is the female has to go 

I know a good dog is were you find it Paperwork is nice but it is paper The dog is real If it is the best dog for you that's the real deal


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

I'm on this forum, and my dog is a rescue. He looks and acts like a GSD, but I can't prove it ( except with my eyes and brain...) I kinda would've liked to buy from a breeder but couldn't afford it, had to shoot craps with the gene pool. 
On the lighter side, I married a guy is purebred Polish, and I'm a mutt. My mother in law never spoke to me in 39 years because I am not purebred.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Oh yea he is registered papered pedigree on both sides Sire german shch3 ip3 Dam schhIII ip2 There is alot of shc sch ip and fh titles in his family tree


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Alright I'll play.

I have one registered, one not.

Since I live in Canada, where you cannot represent a dog as purebred without registration, I guess Shadow is just a dog, although I see nothing but GSD there.

Bud is registered, but I am not sure what that proves since mostly he just hangs around being good looking.

The dog I recently lost looked like a GSD, acted like a GSD, genetics said she was a GSD, but I don't know for sure. Since she saved my life and watched my back for 8 years I don't guess it matters.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have always had purebred dogs, the couple of what I would consider rescues (aussie and a gsd), were not registered, all others akc/stockdog/registered from breeders.

I don't think anyone should feel offended/slighted/inferior because your dog came from xxxx and not yyyy, because your dog has 'papers' or doesn't. We all love our dogs, and they could care less where they came from it's where they are 'now'..


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