# E-collar Help!



## AndrewWNY (Mar 13, 2015)

Hey guys. I have an 11 month old male. I read through Lou Castles protocols 4 times. And watched every video I could find before buying a dogtra 2300. I verified that it works on my own arm just fine when it arrived in the mail yesterday. I set out to start using it but I couldn't get passed step 1. He shows no signs whatsoever that a stimulation is occurring until it is well into the 80's (scale of 0 - 127). Once it is in the 80's he yelps like he was hurt, and understandably so. I started over from level 0 and went up again. I adjusted the collar multiple times, tried exercising him so he was more relaxed. Moved him to pavement with no distractions and still no response until it was at a level where it hurt him and he yelped (around 80 again). I got so frustrated because he is tough as nails, which I respect, and here I am just hurting and confusing him. I don't understand why he won't show me SOMETHING that he feels the stim before it is beyond his pain threshold. I'm very tuned into him and am well aware of the subtle signs Lou mentions. He does nothing, just stand or sits and watched the grass blow. I know Lou Castle says that this is a rare occurrence. But how many of you have experienced this? I'm really disappointed by the whole situation. My only alternative is to do as Lou recommends and start working him with the protocols on a lower level and go up from there if he isn't responsive. 

My questions for you guys. Has this happened to anyone else? And what level does YOUR dog typically operate at? I know every dog is different. But for you guys who have tougher GSD's what level typically works with low to moderate distractions? I'm going to try again when I get home and am debating how low of a setting to start, since I have no sign that he's outwardly feeling it I will have to go through 15 leash pulls through every setting and would like to start somewhere reasonable.


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## Aimeanda (Aug 14, 2014)

Have you tried working back down one by one after he first shows signs he feels the stim? I recall Lou saying that once they feel it at a higher level they may be sensitize to it at a lower level. I would try that. Also have you joined Lou's forum? He's very helpful and responds pretty quickly to questions. 


My dog works around 20 on the dogtra 1900 without distractions and up into the 30s with some distractions, but I wouldn't call him super tough.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I would email Lou from his website. He is very responsive and helpful. He has a wealth of information and is probably the best person to get direction from. JMO


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Is the collar tight? Do you have the long probes on? GSD's have a thick coat, so you need to make sure the collar is contacting the skin.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I started Deja on the Dogtra 300 yesterday after she has been wearing it for about 10 days. It should fit pretty snug. On the lowest level, just above 0 while she was relaxed lying down, doing nothing in particular and NOT looking at me. She got up and investigated what that was. So I knew that she felt it. It took level 60 when she left the trail of a newly spotted deer (he was heaven-sent at the best moment when I was ready). So I guess you have to test his starting level when he is 100% relaxed and not looking at you.


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## AndrewWNY (Mar 13, 2015)

Yes, I read that too and was hoping after the yelp he would become sensitized at the very least. I tried working back down from 80 and he shows no signs of stimulation as soon as I drop into the 70's or below. I started over at 0 and worked back up to 80 again as well. Both directions up and down. In the 80's he yelps, 70's or less he just ignores it entirely. Thanks for the number info. I'm considering starting at maybe 15 or 20 and taking him through the protocols at that setting and see how he does. I'll stay positive and give it an honest effort but I just can't help but think if he doesn't flinch or show any signs below 80 that it's going to be a pointless training tool for us for extreme distraction work. He already listens well without big distractions. But when he needs it most under severe distraction he has proven he can ignore it. I don't think it will be an influential tool unless I'm willing to crank it high. And I really don't want to shock him to the point that he is hurt. Because that is NOT conducive to training.


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## AndrewWNY (Mar 13, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> Is the collar tight? Do you have the long probes on? GSD's have a thick coat, so you need to make sure the collar is contacting the skin.


The collar is very tight. I tried all different tightness settings to the point that it was definitely too tight. Initially I thought that was the problem and the stimulations were inconsistent due to inconsistent contact. But I definitely ruled that out by tightening the collar and clearing the hair away from the probes. I have the short probes though. Do you guys use long ones?


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## AndrewWNY (Mar 13, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> I started Deja on the Dogtra 300 yesterday after she has been wearing it for about 10 days. It should fit pretty snug. On the lowest level, just above 0 while she was relaxed lying down, doing nothing in particular and NOT looking at me. She got up and investigated what that was. So I knew that she felt it. It took level 60 when she left the trail of a newly spotted deer (he was heaven-sent at the best moment when I was ready). So I guess you have to test his starting level when he is 100% relaxed and not looking at you.


Are you following Lou's protocols for regular training at a low level, and then out on trails, if she takes chase, turning it up to 60 with the constant stim and recalling her? Or are you just nicking her when she doesn't listen and not doing Lou's method? I've talked to a few people who have had great success just nicking the dog on a high level when they don't listen during recall. I know this limits the scope of the collar and 
is not following any training protocols. But I've hear if recall is all that is of concern this approach works.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I use the long prongs. I only use it for chasing wildlife. Last night was the first time when she gave chase after a deer at the right moment when I was ready (as soon as her focus on me stopped and she sped up). I had to turn it up higher during this chase. I have decided not to give a command before the stimulation so she won't associate it with me. As soon as she turned towards me, I stopped the stim and called her and it worked beautifully. Then she stayed around me, was pretty relaxed and I played with her.
For all other training issues I use the positive training techniques. It is tempting to use the E-collar but I won't. My goal is to walk her off leash on the trails without chasing animals.


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## AndrewWNY (Mar 13, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> I started Deja on the Dogtra 300 yesterday after she has been wearing it for about 10 days. It should fit pretty snug. On the lowest level, just above 0 while she was relaxed lying down, doing nothing in particular and NOT looking at me. She got up and investigated what that was. So I knew that she felt it. It took level 60 when she left the trail of a newly spotted deer (he was heaven-sent at the best moment when I was ready). So I guess you have to test his starting level when he is 100% relaxed and not looking at you.





wolfy dog said:


> I use the long prongs. I only use it for chasing wildlife. Last night was the first time when she gave chase after a deer at the right moment when I was ready (as soon as her focus on me stopped and she sped up). I had to turn it up higher during this chase. I have decided not to give a command before the stimulation so she won't associate it with me. As soon as she turned towards me, I stopped the stim and called her and it worked beautifully. Then she stayed around me, was pretty relaxed and I played with her.
> For all other training issues I use the positive training techniques. It is tempting to use the E-collar but I won't. My goal is to walk her off leash on the trails without chasing animals.


Well ironically that is my goal too. So 60 was enough to stop her in her tracks and make her turn toward you? My only fear is he won't know what the stimulation even means if I don't train it on low with recall drills. But you're using it to stop her, and then recall. You're not focused on making the stim necessarily mean recall. Just that the stim means stop. Are you saying a "No" or "stay" when she begins the chase, or saying nothing. Just teaching her that taking off running after something means a whack.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

AndrewWNY said:


> The collar is very tight. I tried all different tightness settings to the point that it was definitely too tight. Initially I thought that was the problem and the stimulations were inconsistent due to inconsistent contact. But I definitely ruled that out by tightening the collar and clearing the hair away from the probes. I have the short probes though. Do you guys use long ones?


The long ones are needed, in my opinion.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

AndrewWNY said:


> Are you saying a "No" or "stay" when she begins the chase, or saying nothing. Just teaching her that taking off running after something means a whack.


My reasoning is that if I were to say a command she would learn that she CAN chase as long as she doesn't hear me saying a command. I think the correction has to come from the universe without a verbal warning from me and just be the result of her own actions.
I am just starting this whole thing after planning and thinking this through and through but the first one yesterday was a success. The result was just what I had hoped for; the stim confused her so she stopped and looked at me. That is the time I got her focus back on me so I could call her and she came. (she was off leash)
I don't know how different your collar is from mine. Even the highest level didn't hurt my neck although I felt it really well. And Deja may be more sensitive to the stim than your dog. I think the key is to stim before they are loaded with adrenaline to the point that they won't feel anything anymore.
PS: after the initial test level inside our home, I took her out on a long line and when she was not paying attention to me when I turned around, I gave her the stim (lowest level) until she came back to me. The reason for the long line was so she wouldn't get startled and bolt because of the new sensation but she didn't. I wanted her to learn this in a safe way. So now I work her off leash in these wildlife habitats.
If anyone can add more advice that would be great. I guess we are both new to this.


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## AndrewWNY (Mar 13, 2015)

I figured out a large part of the problem yesterday! The first part of the problem is he shows no signs whatsoever that he feels the stim. But he feels it because I worked on leash pulls without saying a word on level 20 or so. Eventually he came to me without pulling the leash, and just pressing the stim button. But now I have another problem. Does anyone have a dog that will ignore the continuous stim even at a very high level if dog is sniffing or distracted, and then all at once act like a bomb went off? He definitely has a MAJOR delay in the stim perception if he is pre-occupied at all. I know the idea is to work without distractions but he's an 11 month old dog. So distractions are everywhere. If he has a scent or anything that distracts him, and I hold down the continuous stim button even on a very high setting, he does not perceive it. But if I continue to hold it down for 10 to 15 seconds he suddenly yelps 10 to 15 seconds later after I first started pressing it. The whole time I had it held down, just there is a major delay in his brain processing. Without knowing me, my posts may seem like i'm an incompetent fool. But I assure you I am not and this isn't user error. He surely has a much higher perception of stimulation and no doubt about it, a major delay when he is distracted. Is this delay a known issue in some dogs?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

So the dog wasn't scratching at the collar or blinking or anything like that at lower stim levels?


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## AndrewWNY (Mar 13, 2015)

Baillif said:


> So the dog wasn't scratching at the collar or blinking or anything like that at lower stim levels?


Absolutely nothing at all. I watch him like a hawk. No blinks, eyebrow raises, head change looking down, nothing. I'm watching all of these dogs in videos shaking and scratching at a setting of 2 and 3 on the Dogtras. He just doesn't care. 
Like I said I know he feels it because I was getting recalls with just pressing the stim eventually. So I I have a working level for now under no distraction. But now I'm just stumped because when he's distracted he ignores it completely.
I know the working level must change based on distractions, but therein lies the dilemma. If I turn it up high, it takes a long time until it kicks in to his brain that he is receving the stim (because apparently his brain doesn't process environmental stimuli in front of him and the collar around his neck at the same time). 10 seconds later he yelps like he got assaulted once his brain tunes into the collar stim. He eventually gets this stim this way, but it is way too harsh. 
if I keep it low while he is distracted it never kicks in. He will ignore it for 20 minutes if I sat there and held it. Even with a leash tug. 
Distractions have proved collar levels that either are ignored, or slightly higher and are too harsh. And regardless even at the right setting still result in this extreme delay.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

So let me get this straight. The dog yelps after he stops being distracted while your finger is still on the button or is the dogs yelp delayed 10-15 seconds after you've stopped pressing it?


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## AndrewWNY (Mar 13, 2015)

Baillif said:


> So let me get this straight. The dog yelps after he stops being distracted while your finger is still on the button or is the dogs yelp delayed 10-15 seconds after you've stopped pressing it?


While my finger is still on the button. 
The continuous button times out so I usually hold it for a few seconds, let off and hold it again. He yelps while my finger is on the button, and has been on the button for many seconds. I visually verify that the collar light indicates it is receiving the transmission as well the entire time. While I'm holding it he will just continue to sniff, and many seconds later while i'm still seamlessly depressing the button he will jump and yelp.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah that kind of thing is normal. A dog especially when sniffing can devote so much of its nose and brain to that activity and it will shrug the stim off until it stops focusing on the smell and then bam. It isn't that the dog isn't processing it. Levels change based on the state of the dog.

Are you using a long line too?


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## AndrewWNY (Mar 13, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Yeah that kind of thing is normal. A dog especially when sniffing can devote so much of its nose and brain to that activity and it will shrug the stim off until it stops focusing on the smell and then bam. It isn't that the dog isn't processing it. Levels change based on the state of the dog.
> 
> Are you using a long line too?


I'm very happy to hear that. Yes, a long line too. Should I just stick with the level of around 20 and if he is distracted than I reel him in manually a little bit more for now? I don't see a point in turning up the stim when he is distracted if he doesn't feel it until he's not distracted anymore. Because than suddently it's too harsh.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah just reel him in and pair it with low level stim. Don't give him the option of being wrong at first.


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## AndrewWNY (Mar 13, 2015)

Just a long update for anyone reading this thread. Everything has turned out amazing with this collar. After the rocky start, he now responds to the e-collar on a very low stim around 15 out of the 127 setting. My only thought is he just took a lot longer and higher stim to condition to the e-collar, and he thought he could ignore it and power through it. At first he would still ignore it on 15 setting sometimes, even with a leash tug if he was on a scent, but I would slowly increase the stim while holding the continuous button until he came back to me. By the time I got to a setting of 40 or so he would give in and come running. Now that he is aware and used to the feeling, and he knows the stim will increase in intensity the longer he waits to come back to me on recall, the faster he comes back. He knows he has no choice now. Even in high drive mode he listens on a setting of around 15 now and has been 100%. I've tested him with the neighbors dogs and every other situation imaginable. I'm so impressed with this tool. I have NOT created a velcro dog at all, and recall is all i'm using this for. So i'm very happy about that. I've just created a very attentive dog that still romps through the mud, but is keen to any voice command I give him no matter how far away he is or what the situation. This e-collar has really benefited my life and our relationship. These dogs definitely need more than just positive reinforcement. We already had a superb bond, but somehow this e-collar has definitely brought him to a new level of respect and created an even stronger bond toward me. It's hard to describe, but he still had the bratty defiance thing going on once in a while before the collar, but it's like this was the final straw which made him realize I am his ultimate care taker and master and he has accepted that now and seems even happier for it. And it hasen't taken one ounce of his drive away. He still sprints and romps and tears through life like a bat outta ****. It just transformed him into a more mature adult personality and less of a rotten teenager. It's by far the best investment I've ever made in training. This thing is a life changer. I can't describe how happy I am with this thing and his change in attitude.

I've even marked boundaries in my yard which I asked about on another thread on how to do. Every time he crosses a boundary I stim on a super low setting and call him to me. It's that simple. He no longer crosses the boundaries now toward the neighbors land or into the street. I didn't set out flags or anything. Just mentally marked spots and stayed consistent and he obey these boundaries at all times off leash now. 

I did switch to the 1 inch prongs which have made a huge difference in terms of contact through his fur as well. 

Long winded, but helpful for newbies like myself. Stick with it. I can't think of a better investment I've made in a long time, in any facet of my life.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Awesome to hear! Similar success at this end. Deja off leash, collar on as always when outside, even in a fenced area. Around a corner of a grove, face to face with three deer who ran. She never chased and came back to me without the use of a stim and stayed next to me. (I would never have been able to accomplish this with a clicker, treats or toys). Then one stopped and froze in eye contact. Deja, still next to me moved one muscle like if she were getting into hunting mode, and I gave her a stim of 30 on the Dogtra. That was I think the once and for all "you don't ever chase!". After that she was open and relaxed, just the way I wanted this E collar issue to work and we ended with a Chuck It session.


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