# Just need to hear some opinions



## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

Just a warning-this will be long.
I've posted about Ketchup before. He had pretty sersious food aggression issues as a very young pup. Nothing I've ever seen before.
Before people assume I'm a first time owner, I'm not. I have considerable experience with dogs of all types, particularly German Shepherds and working dogs. I don't say this to brag or make myself sound good I just really want people to appreciate the severity of the situation.

A background on him: He is a neutered male, 19 months old. He gets a lot of exercise (mininum 2 hours of walking every day) with one and a half hour runs mixed in 4/5 times a week. He is intellectually stimulated with a lot of training, agility, search and find it games etc. He has always had a lot of people in his life and they have always treated him well.

I worked with Ketchup, doing everything I knew and with the help of a couple other trainers we worked out most of the aggression issues. He has dog aggression but this too is not something I feel can't be fixed. 

Ketchup's problem is the human aggression at completely uncalled for times. Now everyone knows that dogs give warnings and that they bite for a reason. Whether that be because there aren't boundries and they believe they are the alpha, they feel threatened, they are responding to pain, they are guarding etc. but Ketchup is the first dog that I have seen bite with no warning and completely out of the blue. I thought maybe I was missing something so I a couple close friends who work with dogs come and check him out. They were bitten (eventually, this doesn't happen instantly) both at a time when they had already gained his trust and were very calm and he was calm. It's almost like he flips a switch and then he instantly backs off and then seems confused almost like he doesn't know what's just happened and doesn't understand why people are upset.

Finally I decided to have a behavourist come look at him. Things were going well, when I explained the problem they said 'dogs bite for a reason. We are here to figure out what that is'. Two hours later the man was bitten. Hard. Ketchup drew blood but as always backed off and looked confused. The behavourist looked at me and his partner and shook his head. He said only once in his career had he seen a dog that snapped for no reason with no warning signs. He said this dog had a neurological disorder and that with age the problem got worse until the family couldn't even get close to their own dog and it had to be put down.

So what now? Will this get worse with age? Obviously I am taking the dog to the neurological clinic to be assessed and he is going for ANOTHER complete check up because I still think it might be a medical issue (he has always had stomach problems and perhaps it's related like a thyroid issue or something). He has been to three vets and each of them say he is fine but I know dogs are often misdiagnosed. 

So what I'm looking for here is advice/ shared situations. Has anyone ever experience this before? Was it a medical issue? Could you solve it with medication? I can't give up on my dog. I will not give him to someone else only for him to hurt them and end of being put down as a result.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Rage Syndrome perhaps?

Rage syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The dog will suddenly act aggressively to anyone nearby, but minutes later will be calm and normal. It does not seem to remember or realise what has taken place and may act immediately friendly to the person(s) that it previously attacked. Attacks such as these have not stopped with training because it is a problem that the dog seemingly cannot consciously control.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_Syndrome#cite_note-bullterrier-0 The attack will happen without apparent cause."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_Syndrome#cite_note-ditto-1


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

BR870 said:


> Rage Syndrome perhaps?
> 
> That's exactly what the behavourist thinks and from what I've read about it, it sounds spot on.
> Do you know if this is something that can be managed or treated with medication?


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

I have no idea. I've only read about it. However if it is indeed a seizure disorder, perhaps it can be treated with anti-seizure medications.


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

thanks for the help. After you mentioned it I read this http://ezinearticles.com/?Unpredict...-Syndrome---A-Neurological-Disorder&id=998912 which seems pretty close to what we are going through. It really is hard because it's like 98% of the time he's the best dog in the world and that 2% he's the most dangerous and I don't trust him myself let alone with kids or strangers. I hope the neurologist can help us here.


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## Lmilr (Jan 12, 2011)

I have no advice really but just want to say good luck and I hope that the neurologist can do something for him.


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

thanks, I will keep everyone updated and tell you what the results are


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a Golden Retriever who behaves in a simular way as your boy, but he isn't as aggressive. He does exhibit strange behaviors when he becomes overly stimulated. Things such as he'll drop his toy in the grass and tear all the grass out around the toy, he'll do this for 1-2 minutes. If you call him, he doesn't respond, if you physically attempt to stop him, he'll snap at you. Sometimes he'll stand very quiet and stare at the ground. This lasts for less then a minute.

If he is very excited he'll run around with his ball in his mouth, he'll bring the ball to you, when you attempt to take the ball he'll snap at you. Again, this only happens when he is overly excited brought on by outside stimulus. Other times he plays fetch with out any problems. 

He is 11 years old now, I've had him since he was a puppy. In his entire life, I've seen him have 2 actual seizures. Our vet dx him with a neurological disorder. However, because it isn't severe and because I can keep him contained (we live out in the country) we've elected not to start him on meds unless it gets worse.
The vet did suggest we have him PTS when he was first dx. We made the decision to watch and wait. Again, he has no people aggression, and he welcomes any dog into 'his' back yard with out a problem. He is the alpa dog of our 'pack'. 


Otherwise, he is a happy healthy senior. He has his quirks (terrified to come inside) but we've made allowances for them.


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks for sharing. This does sound a bit like my GS with the exception of the human aggression. It's nice to know that you made it work even after the vet suggested that he be pts. I guess I will just have to wait and see what we are dealing with and see what options are available for him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

am I reading this correctly (speed reading for lack of time) - you had friends come over to evaluate the dog and they got bitten? So how many bites has he had , 3 or 4?

sorry - dog . There is no way that I would keep a dog that 2% of the time is the most dangerous dog in the world . He is not safe in dog or human society . 

Feel safe around him ? What if he turns on you ?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

This 'sounds' like epilepsy or almost a canine Tourette's Syndrome because of his confusion afterwards. Like he is losing time. It appears you are in the early stages of discovery. Good luck in finding out what it is and a treatment for it. Be safe.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Rage syndrome has no cure because it is a brain dysfunction. Of course, you can keep the dog highly medicated in a "zombie" state so he won't bite, but not a very good scenerio.
We had a 6 month old Sheltie puppy that my granddaughter raised from 8 weeks. old. He started snapping for no apparent reason, at weird times. He finally bit her a and then I brought him to my home to see what was setting him off. Nothing. He was healing beside me, looked at me rather strange and then jumped up and bit me through my jeans. I required stitches and the dog was put down. He had had previous medical tests to see what might be causing the problems and everything came back normal, including thyroid.
I had an autoposy done and he had a brain lesions/tumor. It was still diagnosed as Rage, since the brain gets lesions that cause Rage, but he also had a tumor. Probably born with it. He was a sheltie and gave a severe enough bite to require stitches, a GSD will cause much more injury.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I agree with some of the others. I know you love your dog and would do anything for him. Unfortunately, he is a huge liability. How could you live with yourself if he seriously hurt or killed someone. Those are the kind of horror stories we read and ask, "Why would anyone keep a dog like that?" In the end, I don't think you are doing the dog, or yourself, any favors.

I am very sorry.


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

I appreciate the honest opinions. I'm going to explore every option but I need to be prepared for the worst. I think it's just when we have good days that I can't imagine it. But then the switch flips again and he's not himself. I really couldn't ever live with it if I was responsible for a dog that seriously hurt someone but this could be the worst thing I've ever done.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I really am truly sorry. I can't imagine how much this hurts. Hopefully, there would be a miracle that could fix this.

Hugs!
Jan


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

So sorry for your situation...


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

thanks again. Only dog lovers can understand what I am going through right now. It's hard to explain it to someone who doesn't appreciate the situation so it's nice to have some support here.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

*How are things with Ketchup*

I know it's been a couple of months since you've posted, but I'm wondering how you're getting on with Ketchup, and what the neurologist said. .

I'm new to the forum, but understand exactly how you feel, as I'm having the same problem. . 

Please accept my sincere apologies if I have reminded you of a situation you would rather forget. 

Jakes mom.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

as i've always been sent dogs w/aggression issues over the years i've had a couple like this come thru my home. 1 was a 7yr old sheltie and the other was 2yr old springer spaniel. both animals had to be put down after neuro workups. there were no apparent signals, there was always confusion afterwards, and each "attack" was more like seizure activity. but their behavior had been ignored and overlooked as "bad" behavior for a long time, so there'd been no treatment at all. 

hopefully w/you having been paying attention, you've been able to halt the progression and help him. 19mos is very young and may be salvageable. what did you neuro have to say? 

dw


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

My aunt's dog became realllllly aggressive, but that was because he had SIBO. He would snap completely without warning when people were just talking to my aunt, and he bit some people who he was previously friendly with. Kind of scary.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi ollie_leyna,

I'm new to this forum, can you tell me what you mean by SIBO please.


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

My aunt (and others on this forum too I'm sure) is much more well versed, but as I understood it SIBO is a complication of EPI, Exocrine pancreatic insufficiency. Basically the dog can't produce the enzymes needed to digest food. 

The common symptoms are:
Gradual wasting away despite a voracious appetite
Eliminating much more frequently, sometimes every hour or two
Stools are greasy voluminous yellowish cow-plops, but sometimes grayish
Eating their own stools, or other inappropriate substances
Increased rumbling sounds from the abdomen
Increased passing amounts of flatulence
Some dogs do not show any typical signs
Some experience intermittent watery diarrhea or vomiting
A lack of nutrients often results in temperament changes which may express themselves in fear and/or aggression


I got this list from Overview - EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency if it sounds anything like what you're experiencing and you're looking for more info.


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

Also, I don't know how old Jake is, but there's a sticky at the top of the section that addresses thyroid issues being a cause of aggression (this usually shows up in older dogs) if you want to check that out as well.


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

Time to give up on training and behavior. It sounds like you are right your dog is crying out for help. Something is wrong with him medically. Keep trying with different vets if you can. I am so sorry this has to be very hard to deal.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> Hi ollie_leyna,
> 
> I'm new to this forum, can you tell me what you mean by SIBO please.





ollie_leyna said:


> My aunt (and others on this forum too I'm sure) is much more well versed, but as I understood it SIBO is a complication of EPI, Exocrine pancreatic insufficiency. Basically the dog can't produce the enzymes needed to digest food.
> 
> The common symptoms are:
> Gradual wasting away despite a voracious appetite
> ...


I know we are now completely off the OP's problem, but it so strange seeing your message, as we have just lost our very precious Dalmation with this exact problem. She never, however, showed any signs whatsoever of aggression. Bless her.


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