# switching to all beef?



## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Don't know what to do here, started raw about 2 weeks ago and his stools have been nothing but water and bones. My pup is 40 lbs and starting to think he may have a chicken allergy. Going to go to butcher today and try all beef for a day or two and see what the results are. I'm planning on ground beef, heart, liver and kidneys.
I have tried using yogurt, pumpkin and probiotics while on the chicken only diet but all with the same results. He only has had 2 poops in the last two weeks that had any formation at all. Although he is not dehydrated at all this can't be good. 
Even with kibble (both wellness and BBlbp) he has had soft poops but at least they were formed. I haven't taken a stool sample to the Vet as I give him DE once a day but if he continues to have the runs with the beef that will be my next step.
Any recommendations would be appreciated!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You need to get his digestive system settled down. I would try boiled or cooked ground beef, pumpkin, yogurt and probiotics and leave out the heart, liver and kidney. You might also look into digestive enzymes. 

Were you feeding just chicken parts or were you also feeding organ meats and other things? Some dogs need their raw foods ground when they first start because their systems are just not ready to deal with the bones when they have been eating kibble. 

Then I would have your pup checked for coccidia and giardia (they can be hard to find).


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

For his lunch meal I was feeding him chicken livers and sometimes beef livers pureed in a blender, mixed with pumpkin,yogurt,DE and a human probiotic. I bought some pre-ground chicken from the butcher when I first started with the same results (about 2 1/2 days)

Morning meal is a drumstick, evening meal is a chicken quarter.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I don't think I fed any organ meat for the first 2 weeks. Then when I did, it was on tablespoon of chicken liver and my dog had diarrhea. After that no organ meat for a few more days, then chicken liver again. It look a while for him to get used to the organs and I had to take it really slow. Maybe your dog is the same. Did you ever post exactly what you are feeding your dogs?

The first week my dog was on raw he got only chicken parts. Not ground, just like you'd buy to cook for yourself.

Also, this was the method prescribed by the people at the Yahoo group Rawfeeding. They recommend no organ meat at all in the beginning.


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Yes thats what I feed him about everyday, sometimes I'll throw an egg into his lunch meal along with fish oil every other day but thats the basics.
I'll discontinue the raw organ meat for now, although his favorite treat if broiled liver cut into little squares.z


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

My dogs love liver, too, but if I use too much of it for training, I can expect to get up in the middle of the night for an extra potty (runny poo).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Organ meat will make soft poops. I am lucky and can feed my weeks organ meat in one meal though I don't do this to puppies. They get theirs in 3 meals. Many dogs can't handle this. 

I would stay away from organ meat for at least a couple of weeks. If you are feeding leg quarters and backs there is a small amount of organ meat attached anyhow. Stick with this and nothing else (no eggs or organ meat) for awhile and then slowly introduce a tiny bit of organ meet. 

I would still have your pup's stool checked. Elena gets part of a slice of liver for lunch 3 times per week with her fish oil and an egg and her poops are nice and firm. The other days she gets ground meat or heart and some yogurt with her fish oil. If you are getting soft poops you are either feeding too much total, not enough bone, too much organ meat or there is something else going on.


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, will eliminate the organ meat for a while. I have a call into the Vet to see if I should bring in stool sample. Will be hard to get now as its just brown water and bones.

This is the first time I've done raw and I am very enthused about feeding him it for the health benefits etc but didn't read very many posts about problems when 1st introducing raw. Hopefully lack of organs will dry up the stools and I'll introduce a little at a time further down the road.


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Today for lunch I gave hime 1/2 can green tripe, along with pumpkin, kelp help, probiotic and DE. 4 hrs later he actually had a bowel movement that I could actually pick up! Today is the first day that I haven't given him yogurt.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think you need to research the diet better. Feeding RAW without proper balance is dangerous. 
Do as suggested by Lisa: 
_You need to get his digestive system settled down. I would try boiled or cooked ground beef, pumpkin, yogurt and probiotics and leave out the heart, liver and kidney. You might also look into digestive enzymes._
As young as your pup is, if he is truly pooping "brown water", he can become dehydrated fast. 
Beef bones normally aren't a part of the RAW diet. They are very dense and not easily chewed. Pork neck bones, turkey necks or young lamb, veal would be available as RMB's if you can't feed chicken. I really don't think chicken is your puppy's problem, the balance you are feeding may be the cause.
FWIW, a chicken leg 1/4 is perfectly balanced if the back is attached, and the portion weighs about one pound, so that is about right as well.
If you can get fresh(frozen) green tripe, it is much better than the canned. Why are you giving DE daily?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

mkinttrim said:


> For his lunch meal I was feeding him chicken livers and sometimes beef livers pureed in a blender, mixed with pumpkin,yogurt,DE and a human probiotic. I bought some pre-ground chicken from the butcher when I first started with the same results (about 2 1/2 days)
> 
> Morning meal is a drumstick, evening meal is a chicken quarter.


I see a couple of issues with this.

First - you can't just feed one of these or two of those - especially to a growing puppy. You *MUST MUST MUST* feed by *weight*.

You need to calculate how much (by WEIGHT) your puppy needs to eat.

For example, let's look at Spot. Spot is 4 months old and weighs 45 pounds. Spot is a very active young puppy so I would feed him at 5% of his CURRENT weight.

So, 45 pounds * 7% comes to 2.25 pounds of food being fed per day.

I would then take that 2.25 pounds and divide it up into food groups:

50% Muscle Meat
45% Raw Meaty Bones
5% Organ Meat

That breaks down to the following:

18 ounces of Muscle Meat
16.5 ounces of Raw Meaty Bones
1.5 ounces of Organ Meat


I would try that for a week and see how it went.



FYI - the #1 reason for loose stools on a raw diet is OVERfeeding.


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm giving him DE to follow up the medicine that vet gave him for roundworms a month ago (nemex). Its just a preventive measure that I was recommended to do once every cpl months. Today was his final day for it.
I'm going to hold off on the yogurt 1 more day at least. Seems to me when I started the yogurt/raw diet the runs happened so if I eliminate it and his poop improves that could be a culprit as well. 
I just read on here that organs should be included in MM and RMB's.
He definately is not dehydrated, he drinks but not excessively and he chews on ice from time to time. I can grab his loose skin around his neck and it pops right back and is very elastic.
The canned tripe is NOT what I wanted but all I can find right now. I just joined a local green tripe yahoo group and hopefully can get some fresh in their next shipment in October.


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Thanks Lauri, Yes I have been feeding him 2lbs a day including the pumpkin and yogurt. I have been reading percentages for puppies ranging everywhere from 5-10% so I figured I average it out to 7 1/2%. Jager is definately gaining weight and I haven't been over feeding that I know of. 
When giving for instance a whole chicken quarter, drumstick, back, how much of that total weight should I figure as RMB?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How many times a day are you feeding? When Karlo was growing I fed him about 1# per meal 2x's a day and he had a midday snack along with a midnight snack(he grew an average of 3# per week) I fed him 3x's a day til he was about 16 weeks~harder to make the smaller portions when you are trying to balance the meat/bone ratio's.
His weight finally plateaued at about 10 months. Now at 2.5 yrs he is fed almost 3# daily and weighs around 90#, very lean structure.


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Feeding 3X a day, most of the meat portions are given at morning and evening, lunch time consists of pumpkin, maybe a little green tripe, was giving him yogurt, kelp help and fish oil all mixed up, I would also throw in a chicken liver or piece of beef liver but I'll cut that out for now.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

mkinttrim said:


> When giving for instance a whole chicken quarter, drumstick, back, how much of that total weight should I figure as RMB?


ALL of those are RMBs so the total weight for any of those would be considered RMBs.

I would cut out all the other stuff - yogurt, DE, kelp, oil, etc. and just concentrate on the basics - RMBs, MM and OM.


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Officially cut out!


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Well I had Jager on just chicken for 3 days, had a cpl of firm poops but they were followed an hr later by soupy. Going to go to meat processor today and getting 40lb of chicken necks and 30lb of turkey gizzards. They are out of beef heart right now and the same with chicken backs. Will give him ground beef for MM until I can get the heart.


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Well it looks like Jager is sensitive to Chicken. Even when he was on kibble (wellness and BB LBP which is chicken based) he had very soft poops. When I started on raw it got even worse. I tried adding pumpkin and yogurt to help but the yogurt made it worse so he's lactose intolerant too. 
So I put him on a 24 hr fast then started feeding him beef only. His poops firmed up nicely! 
Unfortunately I doubt if I can affford to feed him all beef all the time. He seems to tolerate lamb ribs nicely but they too are expensive. I hate to go back to kibble again (beef based) but may have to.
Any suggestions?


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

*Update*

Just got back from the Vet as Jager had the runs all night last night and it had a little blood in it. After a fecal exam he had no parasites but was loaded with bacteria. Although he is pro raw he suggested to go on kibble (California Natural lamb and rice)for a while till his stomach and bowels settle down.
Jager rec'd an injection of Atropine and also has meds to take twice daily, Metronidazole and Hyosophen.
I was wondering if the bacteria could of came from the chicken? I cleaned his bowl after every meal and the chicken was thawed out a day B4 eating, like a dummy I forgot to ask Vet this.
So its back to kibble for now, I may try going back to raw at a later date as he loves it.


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I see a couple of issues with this.
> 
> First - you can't just feed one of these or two of those - especially to a growing puppy. You *MUST MUST MUST* feed by *weight*.
> 
> ...


Hello Lauri. When feeding raw, do you feed for example 5% of body weight per meal or is it divided up into separate meals during the day?
To OP, seems like chicken could be the problem, could you try turkey for a few days and post back the results?


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Yes think chicken may be the problem, the quarters I used were bought from Walmart and from other posts I've seen on here their quarters are loaded with sodium. I have him on 1/2 kibble and 1/2 beef mix right now and the medicine seems to be working as his stools are finally nice and firm.
Will definately not get any food from walmart anymore ( I rarely shop there anyhow) but will get it from a local grocery store or butcher.


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