# Engagement and Focus



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I see so many new owners who are having issues with keeping the puppy's focus on them and resort to correcting the puppy rather than building a relationship. 

Sooo....what games did you play with your puppy to teach them engagement and focus?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Good article on the theory 
Building Engagement Through Play! | Denise Fenzi


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Most puppies like to follow you around,so I used to simply walk around,jog,zig zag,etc.so puppy would remain interested in my movements,and treat him whenever he returned to my side after veering off to inspect something interesting.A flirt pole is a great tool to teach focus also.Feeding time is an opportunity to require eye contact and a sit before setting down the bowl.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You used a flirt pole for focus? How interesting. And could you please explain how you did that?


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## CDR Shep Mama (Mar 14, 2015)

Shep looooves playing find it. I'll hide a little tiny treat in one of my pockets, hands, under my hood, etc and let him sniff to find it. It's a great way to get that physical interaction while challenging his brain.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Another excellent article
Hiking with Fido - Hikes with Dogs on Southern California Hiking Trails: Everyday Training: Engagement

EXACTLY!!!!!


> How can you train a dog a command if that doesn't pay attention to you?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I always combined approaches. Engagement through handling, reward, and also negative reinforcement and punishment. With a puppy I would use an attention command like "ready." 

From a handling perspective you should be energetic and interesting and avoid gap in action where a dog would want to check out. Take a lesson from Vegas and be like one of those high end slot machines. Little payouts often, big jackpots infrequently but still present for exceptional behaviors, be flashy, make interesting noises, be fun. If you take frequent long boring pauses of inaction while you're thinking about what to do you're basically inviting the dog to check out on you.

Rewards and play of course help. Make rewards an event. Payout sizes need to vary it isn't just one behavior one treat that is super boring. Sometimes five sometimes three sometimes one. Don't pay all at once pay machine gun style. Dogs would rather have 3 treats fed one after the other than 10 all at once. 

Checkouts with a puppy I would nag punish. Some people just ignore them and you could but I don't. This is an art form though and can easily go wrong. I just refuse to compete with outside distraction. I do my best to help the dog avoid that issue but push comes to shove I don't tolerate it.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> You used a flirt pole for focus? How interesting. And could you please explain how you did that?


We also use the flirt pole for focus... We ask Bash to sit, down, stand, etc. Once in a stay, we start to move the lure and then say "watch me". Once he does, we give him his release word and he gets to chase the lure. Works really well!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Interesting. That's the exact opposite use of a flirt pole if your dog is going to train in sport.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Helps to have clear beginnings and ends to your sessions too "ready" to start "done" or "that's it" or something similar to conclude it too so that the dogs learn that attention needs to happen within that space of time.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Interesting. That's the exact opposite use of a flirt pole if your dog is going to train in sport.


It's used to build drives in sport, right? Sorry if that's a dumb question. We've never done any dog sports before!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yup. The dog barks, the object moves.  I would never have thought to use it to stop prey drive. Very interesting use.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Scenario: 

You walk into a new place with your puppy. Obviously the puppy's attention will not be focused on you. You do not have a flirt pole with you.  What specifically do you do to get your pup's focus back on you?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good thread.

How about move a few steps back, quickly away from the pup, maybe make a noise, the pup will focus on you to follow then reward. 

Question is, since pups have a short attention span, how long do you keep this up?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Scenario:
> 
> You walk into a new place with your puppy. Obviously the puppy's attention will not be focused on you. You do not have a flirt pole with you.  What specifically do you do to get your pup's focus back on you?


I usually use the "watch me" command for Bash, then reward heavily. I don't know if that would work for other puppies, but it's probably Bash's most solid command right now. If that doesn't work (at training, it sometimes doesn't because other puppies are so exciting!), we do "leave it" and reward heavily. Sometimes, just a rapid succession of "puppy puppy puppy" if it's someplace really exciting, then heavy rewards again. We probably look like idiots trying to make ourselves more exciting than all the other things in the world, but you do what you have to do!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Scenario:
> 
> You walk into a new place with your puppy. Obviously the puppy's attention will not be focused on you. You do not have a flirt pole with you.
> 
> ...


When we went to a new place we were there so puppy could acclimate to new sights and sounds so spent the majority of that time quietly observing.We would practice obedience commands randomly for a few minutes.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hmmm...so both dogma13 and GypsyGhost are going right into obedience commands. My puppy just got frustrated for lack of focus, to many other exciting things, and went to the kitchen. No fun!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Was my idea wrong?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nothing is wrong, Gwen!!! Whatever works for you.  

Personally, I would have chosen your option to get attention over obedience.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

We are working on this right now, and being excited, silly to keep the pup engaged....food rewards at this time over tug due to teething. 
Running away from pup to bring back the attention if pup starts sniffing,ignoring me. Restrained recalls are done as well. 
Pup is too young to expect focus on me for too long, short sessions, and age appropriate expectations for now.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah O.K. 

I was taught to create the behavior then name it later.

Also, taught to use the flirt pole as you described (IPO trainer).

I look forward to having a puppy to train again, maybe later this year, next year for sure.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

one place that l train, many handlers use a smaller type 'fishing pole' with ball on the end of it for training the younger dogs, tease them up and then get the focus, give a command and reward with the ball in the commanded position. Pups need to be done with teething and able to target somewhat, so it isn't done with the real young dogs, but is an excellent method and then the pole is eliminated as the dog gets more experienced at targeting.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So, here is my opinion...

First, it all depends on your pup on how long you need to work on focus. If I were in a puppy class, the last thing I would be worried about is obedience. If the entire class is spent on working to keep my puppy's focus, then it was still time well spent. How long? If your puppy is shutting down, then it's time to go home.

Second, I was taught the first thing you do when you come in a strange place is get the puppy on the food. Teach the puppy to push into your hand for the food. Move back and forth so the puppy is following you with its nose in your hand ON the food. 

Play keep away with the food. Show them the food, close your fist and jump back a step. Once the puppy is following you, then start turning around so he has to come around you to find you. The object is to get your puppy to search for you and the food. They WANT to see your face. They READ your face. They INTERACT with your face! 

Toss a piece of food out a short distance, tap the puppy's butt after it gets the food and call him back. Run the other way. It's a game. Soon you can toss the food and the puppy will come right back to you.

If you do not have the attention of a dog, you can not train them. You can not train a dog looking the other way. It is up to you to teach the puppy that YOU are the most interesting thing in the room and all rewards come thru you.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> hmmm...so both dogma13 and GypsyGhost are going right into obedience commands. My puppy just got frustrated for lack of focus, to many other exciting things, and went to the kitchen. No fun!


Not formal OB commands,just simple things like sit,come,and walking around quickly back and forth for a minute so he could practice what he learned at home in a new situation.I'm talking a total of maybe five minutes spread out over an hour's outing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

But "Sit" and "Come" are formal commands. Maybe not competition level at this point but they are commands and are obedience. And what do you do if he refused to sit because he's to distracted?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jax, I like that engagement game of yours


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

yeah...me too. I have one of the best trainers in the U.S.  Very fortunate.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I had one trainer that did a follow me exercise and an auto check in. In both scenarios the pup was rewarded when it looked at you(auto check in) or came to you after sniffing around(follow me-done off leash).After a while there is only seconds of them not doing one or the other. The flirt pole was great in teaching the pup focus, drop it and wait.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> But "Sit" and "Come" are formal commands. Maybe not competition level at this point but they are commands and are obedience. And what do you do if he refused to sit because he's to distracted?


None of my puppies ever refused because I would stand in front of them,say their name,and have a treat ready.I do see your point though.I actually agree your way is better and would be more successful with an excited puppy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

llombardo said:


> I had one trainer that did a follow me exercise and an auto check in. In both scenarios the pup was rewarded when it looked at you(auto check in) or came to you after sniffing around(follow me). After a while there is only seconds of them not doing one of the other.


How does that teach focus? You are allowing the dog to sniff around and do what it wants. So I go out to a trial field, and my dog is sniffing around because that's what I've allowed. We go into the store and he's sniffing around because I've allowed it. I want zero seconds of them sniffing around. I want the focus on me. I can't teach a thing if they are doing something else. I can't compete if I dont' have their attention from the second I bring them from the car.

Please expand more on this method and how it works in the long run?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogma13 said:


> I actually agree your way is better and *would be more successful with an excited puppy*.


I don't know as 'more successful with an excited puppy' is the key. I think it's about making the puppy more excited to be with you and focus on you. If I have a mild puppy I still want him excited to work with me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

one problem l've had with me tossing food, is the pup will continue to search for more, so l try to only have food come from my hand, unless we are using target plates. The dog should always have to move for the reward, up or pushing into the handler, never the handler going to the dogs mouth with the treat if the reward is given during movement. 
One other thing we do, once corrections are brought in, always bring the dog back into drive after the correction, circles/ turns/ ups.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's why you lightly smack their butt to bring their attention back to you, Jane. I wouldn't do it in an outside area where I couldn't easily see the treat. And I would keep the pup on a 6' leash so they can't wander off until they get the idea of the game.

Tossing treats, for me, is a regular part of training. Do the motion (perch, back, platz, etc), toss the treat, call them back to start again.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I had one trainer that did a follow me exercise and an auto check in. In both scenarios the pup was rewarded when it looked at you(auto check in) or came to you after sniffing around(follow me-done off leash).After a while there is only seconds of them not doing one or the other. The flirt pole was great in teaching the pup focus, drop it and wait.


I do this with my dogs when we're off leash in the woods.The reason was solely so they keep coming back to check in.They run around and sniff but constantly look towards me and keep track of my direction.But we don't train for a sport either,they are just companions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogma13 said:


> I do this with my dogs when we're off leash in the woods.The reason was solely so they keep coming back to check in.They run around and sniff but constantly look towards me and keep track of my direction.But we don't train for a sport either,they are just companions.


This is what I do outside too. But I called them back and rewarded them. I don't expect anything on a walk other than don't run away from me and make me cry.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

and btw... nobody is right or wrong.  I just wanted a conversation involving ideas for engagement for all.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> dogma13 said:
> 
> 
> > I do this with my dogs when we're off leash in the woods.The reason was solely so they keep coming back to check in.They run around and sniff but constantly look towards me and keep track of my direction.But we don't train for a sport either,they are just companions.
> ...


Lol!Exactly!Must never make Mom cry


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Jax08- I'm definitely going to try that method! Bash targets my hand with his nose already (we tought "touch"), so I think it will be a great way to keep his attention on me! Thanks for that idea!

As for using obedience commands, I try really hard not to set Bash up for failure. I don't want him to think it's ok to ignore commands. If he is too excited to even pay attention to me, I start moving around and using an excited voice (this is where repeating "puppy puppy puppy" comes in to play) and food rewards.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> How does that teach focus? You are allowing the dog to sniff around and do what it wants. So I go out to a trial field, and my dog is sniffing around because that's what I've allowed. We go into the store and he's sniffing around because I've allowed it. I want zero seconds of them sniffing around. I want the focus on me. I can't teach a thing if they are doing something else. I can't compete if I dont' have their attention from the second I bring them from the car.
> 
> Please expand more on this method and how it works in the long run?


The allowing of the sniffing around is in the start of the training, by the time your done the dog is consistently watching you and right with you. This is probably not good on a trial field, but works great in everyday scenarios. I don't think you want a dog that should be engaging with a helper or decoy constantly looking at you for direction? They should be focused on what they are doing on the field away from you anyway, right?

When doing this training there are no commands, it's automatic and the dog is allowed to make a choice. I always give mine the opportunity to make the right choice before any kind of correction. The majority of the time they are spot on. 

People wouldn't believe how fast they learn how to focus on the handler with both these exercises. Reward with food is used in the very beginning but that dwindles quickly.

Even now with the pup, I carry treats with me everywhere. If he is running around playing and comes by me I treat, reward and send him on his way. He doesn't go far or stay out of sight very long at all.

I only did this training all the way through with Robyn(very successful). I'm working on it with Apollo. Midnite could use it, do he is next on the list--he prefers to just observe and watch from a distance


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I always carry treats with me too,all of my pockets are full of crumbs


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

llombardo said:


> The allowing of the sniffing around is in the start of the training, by the time your done the dog is consistently watching you and right with you.


Ok. Please explain step by step how this is done for people.

and btw...trial doesn't necessarily mean protection work with a helper. It could be agility, AKC obedience, tracking.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Ok. Please explain step by step how this is done for people.
> 
> and btw...trial doesn't necessarily mean protection work with a helper. It could be agility, AKC obedience, tracking.


With the auto check in, you just treat and mark whenever the dog looks at you without a command. What happens here is the dog decides that hey if I look at them they give a treat, good things happen when I look at them or check in. They can learn this fairly quickly. You can use this to strengthen a watch me but I just use watch me for longer focus times. At 4 months Apollo was able to hold a watch me for a minute straight with distractions. With the auto check ins you will notice that they are looking at you for praise and guidance. Then the follow me comes into play. What we did is remove all other dogs and handlers except for the team that was working. Unleashed the dog and walked away. You would be surprised at how quickly they notice your not there. Once they come to you on their own, you treat and mark then keep on walking. During one 10 minute session you will see the dog focusing more on you and sticking by you. 

I then use these things on their own and/or use them to strengthen commands. Either way it works


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