# Tracking Question - Well sort of for sport but who knows



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok so you know due to my ankle Tilly is not being worked in air scent anymore. Honestly, she is more of a trailing dog who works true to track if she hits it when she is working an air scent problem (that is we had to go crazy setting up problems else she would find and take advantage of the track turning an area problem into a quick find)

Now I know that trailing is not going to cut it for someone with a bad ankle! No fantasies here and people just don't understand trailing at SAR speed is so much harder on a handler than working an offlead air scent dog.

But I want something fun to do with Tilly that may pan out. Here is where she is on lead trailing. No issue with a mile long 3 hour old trail through the woods including crossing a parking lot with people and dogs..including finding the start given an LKP of a vehicle.

Standard tracks and crosstracks only worked <1hour. Works well. Pulls into harness. Deep nose. Commits. Easy to read a negative. Can cross roads.

Asphalt. We actually did that for about an eight of a mile with two turns and she did pretty good. Her first owner actually started her as a pup on asphalt but did not do HITT.

I am thinking of playing with her with hard surface, then proceeding to urban tracking-it may not pan out for SAR but it would sure be fun and keep her engaged. Any good resources, suggestions? Steve White is across the world from me. . She is detail oriented and seems to be good at working out complexities like contamination etc. And, of course the older and more difficult, the slower the dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I train all of our patrol dogs in my school to hard surface track on asphalt and concrete. It starts out as nose to surface and a modified Steve White's HITT, except we add a scent article to the water. This method does create a comfort zone on asphalt and nose to surface training methodical training method. However, as we progress, the dog naturally begins to air scent and work both the ground disturbance and the air scent. The dog will trail, however many will continue to track nose to surface when the surface odor is stronger than the air scent. 

I do this everyday and have been very successful at teaching K-9 teams to hard surface track. Since I have started the HITT wth scent in the bottle, then tracking in drive our apprehensions have drastically increased. 

The HITT and odor in a bottle is the first phase, then we got to run aways and agitation. I'd be happy to go into detail and explain what we do.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would love some insight. I have looked at some of Steve White's youtubes and have some familiarity with the method. I think I recall the original Steve White training did use a scent article in the water but it looks like the USPCAk9 articles are not accessible now.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Won't your dog pull as hard tracking as she does trailing? Mine pulls harder tracking, air scent slows her down, and yes it's hard on ankles, knees, backs.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

She pulls into her harness but is not that hard fore me to manage and is very forgiving. But I can restrict what we do in terms of terrain. I am doing outside of team training just to give us something to do fun together. I am just doing HRD with the team with Beau.

The last thing I want is to be "that handler" who should not be out there. I could keep up but the tendons, ligaments, scar tissue have finally killed my stability. Word of wisdom for tracking. Never play with a dog who is not unclipped. I was teasing up a friends dog after she found me, threw the toy and viola. 5" plate. all kinds of mess down there.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Ouch, I feel ya, 3 rods and 9 screws in my spine. Good luck with tracking! I actually prefer the nose to the ground, linear tracking to air scent trailing. I'll look up Steve White.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

if it were not for all the holes in the woods from where trees rotted out and the wear and tear trying to walk along a contour line when the ground falls off to the left of me....I can last about an hour on a contour and I am fried.

I made the decision a short while after coming back from training with foot all black and blue and swollen from one of those darned holes and took a week before it was not hurting....My husband has rods and screws in his spine. That was rough. I can imagine. That must make going through deadfall kind of rough.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I have a bunch of videos on hard surface tracking on youtube. It is how we start all of our patrol dogs in the K9 school.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Serpentines help to slow the dog down and teach the dog that the track will change direction. For this we generally track with the track being down wind. Or the wind at our back. The tracks are baited to start, then the bait is phased out and replaced with a person a the end. Then the water is phased out and we do the track layer does "run aways" with agitation.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Very nice. I will subscribe. Do you set your tracks or do you have a different person. I really think, with a dog already used to working with article it would be strange for me to set my track.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

What kind of aging can you get on these tracks with a good dog? Depending on conditions, 24 hours plus works in the woods but a much harsher environment and, of course, potential for massive contamination. 

Trying to figure if developing this skillset could be good for SAR or limited to police tracking. Maybe I can master it for mentoring future handlers.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

NancyJ said:


> Very nice. I will subscribe. Do you set your tracks or do you have a different person. I really think, with a dog already used to working with article it would be strange for me to set my track.


Thanks!

For our patrol dog training we have someone else lay the tracks. I also do not let the track layer go along on the track. Since we are doing scent discrimination tracking, if the track layer accompanies the handler, the dog should turn and indicate to that person. I've seen this happen and dogs short cut tracks to get to the track layer. As we progress, the track layer is always at the end of the track. For us, this gets the dog driven to find the person / suspect at the end of the track. I'm sure this is very similar to what the SAR folks do, except our dogs are in drive to bite when they find the track layer. 

We will work the hydrated tracks for a month or so, and get the dogs up to about a 1/2 mile. This is done in very busy shopping centers and on busy streets. We start from day one in busy areas and the dogs learn to ignore cars, trucks, other people and odors and focus on the correct scent.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Not sure if your question is specifically tuned to the method of tracking, or, how long an urban trail can be run successfully? But I will chime in on the latter. I've run 48hr urban trails successfully - however, as with all things odor related, environment/weather/etc plays a role on how successful one will be. Urban tracks/trails (aged) are rarely straightforward due to the way wind plays against buildings, cars, asphalt/concrete, etc.. But the dogs are definitely able to adapt and run successful trails with considerable aging attached..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well this all sounds promising. Several years ago I ran urban trails about 3-4 hours and did stuff like boxing intersections etc but in recent years we have focused on having more track sure trailing dogs first.

Yes buildings are crazy as is asphalt etc. (Sez the cadaver dog handler who has seen some wild scent transport) ... But maybe we could redeem the situation and come up with a useful specialty dog


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

NancyJ said:


> What kind of aging can you get on these tracks with a good dog? Depending on conditions, 24 hours plus works in the woods but a much harsher environment and, of course, potential for massive contamination.
> 
> Trying to figure if developing this skillset could be good for SAR or limited to police tracking. Maybe I can master it for mentoring future handlers.


We do a lot of hot tracks with this method. Depending on weather the water evaporates pretty fast. Concrete soaks it in really fast. This is why I went to the scent article in the water, that gives extra time and allows the dog to work older tracks. As we progress we may age the tracks for about an hour. AS we progress, there is no more agitation from the track layer and no more hydration. The track layer leaves a scent article and takes off. At this point we age the tracks longer, but no where near what you may do in SAR. Next we have no scent article but make the dog take scent from a car door handle or tree the track layer leaned on. 

95% of the tracking we do is in an urban environment, neighborhoods, apartment complexes, streets and highways. After about a month into training I will introduce grass, woods and vegetation. The dogs find woods and grass super easy to track in after having a foundation on asphalt for the first month or so. I put a lot of time and emphasis on hard surface tracking and everything else seems to come together really easily and nicely. For us, I find it much easier to start on asphalt and go to grass then vice versa.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I bet you have seen some crazy scent movement, lol... It astounds me constantly what the dogs noses are capable of... I love that Slamdunc teaches with the person at the end (seems unusal for most LE that often do ball tracks) - what a difference in dogs when they get a subject at the end of a trail vs. just a toy.. I do believe a blending of track sure but efficient trailing (getting to the subject as quickly and honestly as possible) is possible, and the best form... You would make a great trailing handler Nancy.. Winter might be a concern if your dog is a hard puller and there is ice, but your experience and the safer footing urban allows should lend itself to your success


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, honestly our dogs get a bite too. Just a toy! And she likes to lick everyone. And loves kids and has worked with Autism and Downs subjects too.

And she is not a crazy hard puller until she gets close then she is crazy. She pulls into her harness with determination and eases up when she gets into a rough spot and has to cast around to recover the track. Ice. Not much here. For what we have I have those slip on things that are small enough to carry in your pack.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Hineni7 said:


> Not sure if your question is specifically tuned to the method of tracking, or, how long an urban trail can be run successfully? But I will chime in on the latter. I've run 48hr urban trails successfully - however, as with all things odor related, environment/weather/etc plays a role on how successful one will be. Urban tracks/trails (aged) are rarely straightforward due to the way wind plays against buildings, cars, asphalt/concrete, etc.. But the dogs are definitely able to adapt and run successful trails with considerable aging attached..


The oldest successful urban track that I have run is about 8 hours old. It was from a burglary in an apartment complex and I was able to locate a foot print at the back door. It rained at least 2" that day and was pouring when I started. I figured there was no way I would get anything, but I felt bad for the victims dn gave it a shot. I tracked about a 1/2 mile to an apartment building where the track ended. I checked the surrounding building and they were all "negative." After some further investigation, I was able to locate the suspect in an upstairs apartment of the building I tracked too. 

I am fascinated by 24 hour aged tracks and older. Do you leave the track layer at the end? Are these tracks run blind to the handler?

All the tracks we run are blind to the handler once we phase out the water. That is a key component for us, as the handlers are forced to read their dogs. 

I need to get back with some SAR people and train. I've definitely adopted some of the techniques I use from them. The aged tracks intrigue me. Occasionally we will get called for a missing child that has been gone for hours or a dementia patient. Honestly, for us it becomes more of an area search than a track or trail at that point.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Hineni7 said:


> I bet you have seen some crazy scent movement, lol... It astounds me constantly what the dogs noses are capable of... I love that Slamdunc teaches with the person at the end (seems unusal for most LE that often do ball tracks) - what a difference in dogs when they get a subject at the end of a trail vs. just a toy.. I do believe a blending of track sure but efficient trailing (getting to the subject as quickly and honestly as possible) is possible, and the best form... You would make a great trailing handler Nancy.. Winter might be a concern if your dog is a hard puller and there is ice, but your experience and the safer footing urban allows should lend itself to your success


I've found the person at the end is really important for us. We do segmented tracks when we start the run aways. First leg may be 300 - 400 yards, then a find, second leg is another 400 yards and so on. We quickly get to 1 mile long urban hard surface tracks by running segments. The dogs get finds and rewards as they go, then the track layer agitates and takes off. I find this to be an easy way to develop stamina, drive and increase length of tracks. Then we do longer segments, until we are running one leg of about a mile. The dog and handler may very well wind up going 1 1/2 miles to 2 miles with missed turns and wind. 

I find the dogs trained this way will trail and even air scent and some of the dogs move pretty quickly. The dogs are allowed to air scent, trail or track and will shift through all three depending on the strength and source of odor. Naturally, the wind, environment, and weather play a huge factor. I don't care if the dogs air scent, trail or track as long as they find the person at the end. The other thing I want is a strong proximity alert when getting close. That is really important for us.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We will set the problems where the end can be accessed by the subject without going near the original track and set it the day before.

Sometimes, someone will go camp out at the finish so a dog can work a large scent pool -- I learned from HRD that a good source and a 30 minute aged problem is a lot easier than something out for 24 + hours.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Slamming said: "..... 
I am fascinated by 24 hour aged tracks and older. Do you leave the track layer at the end? Are these tracks run blind to the handler?....." 

We reinsert the tracklayer when time to run the trail.. And yes, the vast majority of the time (unless working a technical drill) the trail is single blind, occasionally double blind to expose weaknesses... 

Aged tracks used to scare me, but I've run enough of them in practice and deployment to know that scent/odor survives longer than we expect, quite often.. It will blow and move places, especially urban tracks due to the buildings, cars, etc, but it slides into the crevices, along buildings, finds vegetation and moisture.. Certainly heat and dryness play a role in how viable the scent trail is, but even a hit day, once it cools down can produce quite a bit of odor for a dog to trail. 

Probably because of your job demands, aged trails more than a few hours seem unattainable.. Especially if going off fear scent or no scent article for discrimination purposes.. I admire greatly what you and LE in general are able to do with so little odor information for the dog or confusing odor information).. As SAR, we train for what we get called out on, and that quite often is minimum 24hr old or more.. 

I love your open mind and desire to learn nuances of odor Slamdunc.. I have found alot of LE in my area, just assume anything over 2hrs aged is impossible to trail.. I find myself spending hours most days reading, practicing and observing what odor does and how dogs react to it.. I think I'm addicted to learning scent behavior and the dogs abilities, lol..


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Sorry Slamdunc .. Phone changed your user name to slamming without my consent!!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Your way of extending the track/trail and overall idea of the end result outways the 'how' is pretty much how I see it. I've done the extension tracks with runaways and it really reinvigorates a dog who may be flagging a bit due to the intense focus it takes to work odor, especially aged odor.. I will often have my subjects lay a trail, let it age, then, while I'm running it they start laying a hot track from the end spot of the aged trail.. When the dog gets to the hot track, no matter how long the trail was, they perk up and run like a fresh dog and the rewards are that much sweeter.... 

During training, we try to keep the dog trailing /tracking as much as possible so the dog doesn't just air scent to the subject aborting the trail, however, winds shift and sometimes that happens.. Bottom line, if a person is lost, they don't want you running their track, they want to be found NOW, lol.. So I am of the opinion the dog knows where the odor is and how best to use it to our purpose and find the person as fast as possible, however that may be (tracking, air or trailing blown odor)..


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu0x_bwbTcY
> 
> 
> 
> I have a bunch of videos on hard surface tracking on youtube. It is how we start all of our patrol dogs in the K9 school.


Why do track the dog on a correction collar, to slow him down?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Nancy J said: Well, honestly our dogs get a bite too. Just a toy! And she likes to lick everyone. And loves kids and has worked with Autism and Downs subjects too.

Lol! That is so true! Just a different type of bite for different reasons haha

I have found proximity alerts very important too, although for very different reasons.. My life isn't at risk, as yours is if tracking a felon.. But proximity alerts allow us as SAR, to be even more alert and look for other clues of the person's whereabouts, as well as possibly prep for the find.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

@Slamdunc Sorry if this is a stupid question, but when you eliminate the water and lay a concrete track, are you scuffing the way you do for beginners in IPO?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

ausdland said:


> Why do track the dog on a correction collar, to slow him down?


In training I will use the prong collar to slow him down, but my dogs can do virtually anything on that collar. I have done actual street tracks on a prong collar as well. There are times when I want that extra control. Keep in mind that Boru is trained to "find and bite." I need to be very careful tracking through shopping centers, neighborhoods and the areas we work to not have an unintentional bite. I also need to have control in case a subject complies and gives up. 

Prong collars used correctly are not the terrible device that some people seem to make them out to be. I can track, do building searches, obedience and even bite work on a prong.  It's not a big deal to the dog at all. Depending on the type of track and area, I may use a harness, flat collar or tactical ballistic vest that functions as a harness as well.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

gsdluvr said:


> @Slamdunc Sorry if this is a stupid question, but when you eliminate the water and lay a concrete track, are you scuffing the way you do for beginners in IPO?


Not a stupid question at all. 

No, I don't scuff at all. When we transition to grass in the training, we do not scuff either. I just walk normally. Dogs noses are so good that scuffing is really not necessary. The only thing I may do, if I want to help the dog on a track is occasionally touch the asphalt or concrete. I may do this when crossing busy streets, like 4 lane roads. Odor is like "wet paint" and putting a palm on the street leaves odor for the dog. We will also carry a water bottle and occasionally spit some water on the track. That is about all that we do. 

We use a GPS app on our phones, like Motion GPX or some jogging app to record our tracks. The track layer will record the track and get a satellite image of the route and text it to the person going along on the track with the dog and handler. In the event the handler makes a mistake we can offer some guidance. We can then compare the actual track to the route the dog and handler went.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't mean to sidetrack the thread, but I appreciate the way you guys detail the training aspect of these things. Thanks.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The typical pattern for us is that after the person goes missing, family and friends institute their own search and when they start getting frantic, they call the sheriff. The sheriff goes out, runs a dog and if they come up empty they call us. We had one in the past year that turned out ok but I bet a good urban dog may have located him or at least helped us focus our resources.

If a trailing dog has a good direction of travel we will jump skip with air scent dogs ahead of the trailing dog but if we have a good LKP the trailing dog always gets first stab at it.

I know from HRD it is definitely important to have training single blind as soon as the handler knows the dog is on its game -- then double blind down the road. The only time I set a problem for Beau is when I want to work on something. Like a problem or speed drills. Right now he is doing this thing where he will run to the source and then "shop around" and I thought he was working the fringe to be sure. Had an MT tell me, nope he does not want to get put up and is goofing off. He would always work his way back to the source and indicate. So now I am doing speed drills and if he hits source and does not indicate, he just gets put up for awhile. They are not stupid animals


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

That is funny about Beau! I know after I work my boy HRD he is really slow to come back to me (after he has made his finds) and lakes behind because he knows the game is over.. Never after trailing - he is usually pretty tired as I don't run short tracks often (almost always they are 3/4mile minimum but usually 1.5mile or more).. 

A great app for trailing /tracking is The Mantrailing app. Free gives you a limited amount of runner and dog trails which you can overlap to see how close to the track you were. For $5.23 a year, you get unlimited and you can set it up so that if you want to work double blind but are drifting too far off track, your phone chirps at you are signals you. Allowing you to either course correct (dog is crittering or just off odor and hunting, or heavy winds natural terrain has odor pooled further off track than expected, either way you are given a little warning) or continue on.. It has a bunch of information slots offered so you can add as much info as you need/want including weather conditions.. I showed this app to our border patrol unit and they love it..


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

NancyJ said:


> The typical pattern for us is that after the person goes missing, family and friends institute their own search and when they start getting frantic, they call the sheriff. The sheriff goes out, runs a dog and if they come up empty they call us. We had one in the past year that turned out ok but I bet a good urban dog may have located him or at least helped us focus our resources.
> 
> If a trailing dog has a good direction of travel we will jump skip with air scent dogs ahead of the trailing dog but if we have a good LKP the trailing dog always gets first stab at it.
> 
> I know from HRD it is definitely important to have training single blind as soon as the handler knows the dog is on its game -- then double blind down the road. The only time I set a problem for Beau is when I want to work on something. Like a problem or speed drills. Right now he is doing this thing where he will run to the source and then "shop around" and I thought he was working the fringe to be sure. Had an MT tell me, nope he does not want to get put up and is goofing off. He would always work his way back to the source and indicate. So now I am doing speed drills and if he hits source and does not indicate, he just gets put up for awhile. They are not stupid animals


Very interesting! 

We have a similar situation with missing children and even worse with missing adults. Some people wait hours to call us and that drives me crazy. 

We use a passive indication and "opposition reflex" at source for detection work. Granted our dogs are close and usually on lead. Slight leash tension backwards causes the dog to push it's nose to source or pull forward and "lock up." This way the dg will not leave the source. We reward and praise at source so our dogs will rarely leave it. The passive alert dogs do a lock and stare and go nose to source, we won't pay until they really push to the odor if possible. 

I must say I hate putting out aids for HRD training. The smell can be really strong. We work threshold odors and go from paperclips that have odor to large loads, kilos or 100 lbs of weed. I like dope work, easy to handle, doesn't go boom and doesn't stink too bad. I give you a lot of credit for doing the HRD stuff. Not for me.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

HRD (source) does stink bad, lol.. We work Q-tips, the lids and of course the jars... 
Have 
Nancy, your description of an urban callout sounds familiar.. Similar to one county I work with. Another County I work with is faster to call us in as they don't have a K9 team with their department, so we get first go and have had great success.. Sometimes more resources doesn't mean faster or better..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Beau is very dedicated about having his nose on source when he gives his FTR and has gone to great gymnastics to do so. In this scenario he finds it right away and then leaves and works the fringe (I thought) before coming back to it.

EDIT and I do always reward at source unless it is where I can't get. On a rubble pile we work the dog naked and mark with a yes and reward at the base because we really don't want to be playing tug on a bunch of rocks


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Hineni7 said:


> HRD (source) does stink bad, lol.. We work Q-tips, the lids and of course the jars...
> Have
> Nancy, your description of an urban callout sounds familiar.. Similar to one county I work with. Another County I work with is faster to call us in as they don't have a K9 team with their department, so we get first go and have had great success.. Sometimes more resources doesn't mean faster or better..


Yes, but at some point you have to go to larger finds. :grin2: That is what I don't like. 

I remember putting out a size 7 foot in a ceiling tile in a building. Once it thawed the whole building stunk. :surprise: That was one of the last times.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

People are all wowed by the q-tips but those little suckers can put out a ton of odor. The one that still impresses the heck out of me is cremains. [and we have proofed against animal cremains and I go wow]

I don't do forensic stuff but know folks who have searched walls that have been bleached and painted over. We did some rags at a seminar that had gone through the wash with oxyclean.

The odor really doesn't bother me that much. Except for some adipocere mixed with dirt. or really bad anaerobic stuff.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Do you know Edwin Grant (NC retired I think Game Warden?) He is mentioned in Kochers book for backtracking. He is famous for his trailer of sources. Lord if he is ever in a wreck ..... they would be talking about it for decades


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

NancyJ said:


> Do you know Edwin Grant (NC retired I think Game Warden?) He is mentioned in Kochers book for backtracking. He is famous for his trailer of sources. Lord if he is ever in a wreck ..... they would be talking about it for decades


I don't know him, but that would be a bad wreck to have to work.

We take paperclips and dropped them in mason jars with narcotics aids. The narcotics aids are sealed in two layers of plastic bags. The dogs have no issues hitting on the paperclips. We also do "rubs" and simply rub a plastic bag with an aid in it on a car door handle. The dogs have no issues hitting on that either. It is really amazing how accurate their noses are. I can run car on the street for dope and before I go in the car to search I know which passenger or driver has dope by the external alerts. I can tell by the alerts inside the car if it's some ones pants or butt. A good dog is really amazing. Actually, all dogs are amazing, a well trained dog is outstanding.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I don't have any large source although my team does.. Makes for using buildings that WILL NEVER be used again, except for training, lol.. 

I've always wondered how bad it would be if I got into an accident traveling with source, lol.. And mine isn't really self explanatory (placenta, blood, adipose, carpet from suicide, teeth, no legs, feet hands, etc ) so more science project stuff, haha..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Honestly, for us it is the big stuff that can sometimes be more challenging. It is hard to replicate the full thing in training though we have been blessed with enough opportunities over time to realize there are some consistent differences. You can get some real distance alerts with HRD too so reading when a dog has odor but is not near source vs when he just can't just cant access it (like in a tree) vs when he is at source is one of those learning curve things.

http://emainehosting.com/mesard/pdf_documents/Distant Alerts.pdf


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I've read alot about distance alerts for HRD, although I haven't experienced any with my dogs, or flanking with someone and there's.. I've recently had experience with flood stage Rivers and bodies and have learned alot, fast..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I had one that I can't really go into because we don't talk specifics but it led me to correctly call a steep hill and point towards the river about a half mile away where the find was made. Beau had fixated on a tree at the top of the hill.

It is harder to say "I don't think there is anything HERE" when your dog has odor but you can't pinpoint, than anything else I think


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I can imagine how hard that is.. I've had two cases where I've had to give specific explanations for what my dogs where alerting to, but in a less specific area.. Most non dog people try to understand, but don't fully grasp the intricacies odor does and how it can move. Thankfully, both these situations, great teamwork by all involved has rendered some answers - proving the dogs right.. Still, I don't know that I have the skill to call it accurately by my dog alert/fixating /pointing at a tree.. That is awesome!! Still have a lot to learn, that is for sure!


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> In training I will use the prong collar to slow him down, but my dogs can do virtually anything on that collar. I have done actual street tracks on a prong collar as well. There are times when I want that extra control. Keep in mind that Boru is trained to "find and bite." I need to be very careful tracking through shopping centers, neighborhoods and the areas we work to not have an unintentional bite. I also need to have control in case a subject complies and gives up.
> 
> Prong collars used correctly are not the terrible device that some people seem to make them out to be. I can track, do building searches, obedience and even bite work on a prong. It's not a big deal to the dog at all. Depending on the type of track and area, I may use a harness, flat collar or tactical ballistic vest that functions as a harness as well.


Just curious. I thought to keep the dog from pulling too hard. I've accidentally forgotten to switch from pinch to harness, did slow her down a bit but didn't stop her from tracking. I don't think a pinch is a terrible device but do think tracking the dog or letting it pull against the pinch is not using the tool as intended, and I've done both..


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I've always been of the mind to use as little as possible (force) as much as necessary (change). That being said, my dogs aren't apprehension dogs and I can fully see the desire to ensure safety of the public and bad guy if he surrenders.. 

I use a harness always for many reasons, one being the ritual brings the dogs mind to order.. Harness on =working. They carry themselves differently and conduct themselves as professionals when in harness.. Off harness, they know they can play (unless doing obedience or on a short lead)...


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Hineni7 said:


> I've always been of the mind to use as little as possible (force) as much as necessary (change). That being said, my dogs aren't apprehension dogs and I can fully see the desire to ensure safety of the public and bad guy if he surrenders..
> 
> I use a harness always for many reasons, one being the ritual brings the dogs mind to order.. Harness on =working. They carry themselves differently and conduct themselves as professionals when in harness.. Off harness, they know they can play (unless doing obedience or on a short lead)...


A ritual does not need to include equipment like a harness or a long line. I use a harness and a long line for building clearing, tracking, article searches, area searches, etc. My ritual for tracking is not equipment dependent, that is I bring the dog to the starting point or scent pad and place the dog in a down and give a tracking command once the dog is settled in. Part obedience, part starting ritual. I can track my dogs on any collar or harness that I have. Sometimes a run turns into a track, like after a vehicle pursuit. We do a lot of different disciplines with our dogs, apprehension work, tracking, building searches, area searches, detection work, etc. My dog needs to work with what ever piece of equipment or leash is on him. I go with what I have and that changes depending on the call and environment. I've done real world tracks on a 6' leash and prong, 30' lead and harness and a ballistic vest. The dog needs to work regardless of what is on his body or around his neck.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Beau works HRD a variety of ways from naked, to harness, life vest, radio collar with bell, or prong, onlead and offlead.....but our ritual is call to heel, sit, and then the such command. Early on we started (at the suggestion of an MT) a short obedience routine after breaking him and before working him


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

ausdland said:


> Just curious. I thought to keep the dog from pulling too hard. I've accidentally forgotten to switch from pinch to harness, did slow her down a bit but didn't stop her from tracking. I don't think a pinch is a terrible device but do think tracking the dog or letting it pull against the pinch is not using the tool as intended, and I've done both..


Ahhh, there are several ways to use a prong collar. It's use is not limited to giving corrections. 

I have used the collar to slow a fast dog down, but for our tracking some speed is ok. Dogs can track faster than we can run, think of hunting dogs tracking a deer. They run full speed and will stay on track, clearly faster than we can keep up with or train our dogs to track. I do not like to run on tracks as I do not want to move faster than I can accurately shoot while holding a leash. I will jog while tracking, but will not track at an all out run. It''s not practical, effective or safe. 

You can connect the leash to both rings of the prong and it will not give a hard correction or adversely affect a strong dog. Dogs need to be conditioned to the collar like anything else. Working on a prong with both rings connected to the leash is not much more than a flat collar to my dogs. A dog pulling against a prong is not a big deal if handled properly. Nothing to worry about and it will not effect drive or working ability, given the dog is sufficiently hard and fairly resilient.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Oh I wasn't saying that you have to have specific equipment for a ritual, or to work a dog.. Just was stating what and why I use mine. I ran my girl for the first three months of her training of her flat collar.. She is a freaking speed demon and pulls like a mac truck so I know it is possible. 

Also, while when we as SAR are deployed with an urgency, it is altogether different than your circumstances most of the time. Even upon our deployment, we work quickly - slowly.. Of that makes sense. I'm sure your deployments are much more charged due to the nature of many of them, thus your dogs are used to many scenarios and 'wardrobes' equipment. 

Honestly with my dogs, if 8 put the blinker on having been on the hwy, the whining begins.. They believe we are going to work, so I probably could run them with baling twine around their tail and still get the focus, lol.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Hineni7,
I understand completely. For what we do, we have a lot of different tasks or jobs to do. I do not make a ritual out of equipment, even so Boomer knew when the 30' line came out he was going to do something. Our deployments can be fluid and change on the fly, so I just go with what I have. I do carry a 15" line on my tac vest, that helps to go from a vehicle take down to a felony track when the mope gets a jump on us.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You take your dog to the "starting point" or " scent pad" .... more typical challenge we will face is a highly contaminated general area to cast the dog to find the track. When I did trails with Tilly I would drop the scent article walk her to it and down her in front of it. Then cast her to find the track.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I try to prescent my dog(s) before harnessing, then do a scent inventory before rescenting them and casting... Usually have a general idea of DOT before I have finished the scent inventory and sometimes before.. They are so amazing!


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

NancyJ said:


> You take your dog to the "starting point" or " scent pad" .... more typical challenge we will face is a highly contaminated general area to cast the dog to find the track. When I did trails with Tilly I would drop the scent article walk her to it and down her in front of it. Then cast her to find the track.


We do similar things with casting to find the track or to get a negative. The areas we typically track in are highly contaminated. 

I ran a track for an armed robbery yesterday from the front door of a check cashing business, only info I had was the suspect ran out and went left. Wednesday I tracked a bank robbery suspect from the last place the gps tracker had him in a car. We had no starting point, except a vague area from the GPS tracker and a witness sighting. I started with no LPS or scent pad. I casted my dog down a hedge row until he head snapped and committed to a right turn. We then went through the apartment complex, past the location and direction the eye witness gave us and took a slightly different route. I track through a heavily contaminated area, heavily contaminated by Police and residents at this point. My track ended at the building the suspect was later apprehended in. My dog's track was part of the PC for the search warrant. He was found hiding inside the dishwasher by our SWAT team.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

That is awesome! Also why though, I find your view of tracking /trailing refreshing compared to most LE. What a difficult job to track off fear scent, as suspects, witnesses and victims and give off this odor and the dog has to wade through and select 'one'. But because no scent article (usually) is available, my experience with most LE (of big cities near me) say trails disperse within a few hours... Perhaps fear odor due to its high charge of endorphins, sweat with adrenaline, it evaporates/decomposes/dissipates faster, I don't know. But tracking through heavy contamination at any point is always difficult, but moreso, imho, when no scent article is available - regardless of aging.. Nice work!


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Hineni7 said:


> That is awesome! Also why though, I find your view of tracking /trailing refreshing compared to most LE. What a difficult job to track off fear scent, as suspects, witnesses and victims and give off this odor and the dog has to wade through and select 'one'. But because no scent article (usually) is available, my experience with most LE (of big cities near me) say trails disperse within a few hours... Perhaps fear odor due to its high charge of endorphins, sweat with adrenaline, it evaporates/decomposes/dissipates faster, I don't know. But tracking through heavy contamination at any point is always difficult, but moreso, imho, when no scent article is available - regardless of aging.. Nice work!


Thanks. Tracking is our bread and butter and so much rests on successful tracks. I put a lot of time and effort in becoming a better tracking handler and training our dogs to be better trackers / trailers. 

Fear scent, adrenaline, pheromones is something we can not recreate it training. Once a dog has a track to an apprehension, and even better a bite of a non compliant felony suspect, it tracks better. The dog quickly recognizes that odor and is energized on future tracks. 

The fear scent and adrenaline of a suspect running is much more than what a witness gives off. Two or three suspects running together is synergistic and really easy to track for a dog. The odor is super strong. One person running is like a drop of cologne, two or three people running is like spilling the whole bottle.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

That is interesting.. As SAR we don't really deal in fear scent knowingly.. Usually the person doesn't know they are lost until they are lost. The fear scent may occur, but usually well up the trail (and might be why the dogs seemingly rev up at times and is assumed a scent pool.. Huh l will have to think about that next post deployment) and possibly well dispersed after it has aged due to delay on being called in, for whatever reason. 

I can imagine after a bite in an apprehension of a criminal the dog begins to love tracking, lol.. So did you stop at the building due to loss of trail, or for more tactical purposes? Hiding in a washing machine, lol.. Bad guys.. Too funny


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I used my dog to track to find the original flight path and possibly any evidence that was dropped. One of our dogs had tracked previously and was in the area. I thought Boru might get a good track and give us some more info. Initially, the FBI was looking at a different building and apartment and the information flow was not the best. It was a little chaotic and I was tasked with finding the suspect vehicle and starting from there. I tracked with the original dog team as we were on scene pretty quickly and had the area locked down. My track past the original dog and handler's locations and led to a different building which turned out to the correct one. At the building I had a loss of track indication and a negative in front of the building. It wasn't prudent to push it any further as the suspect was known to be armed and he knew we were there. 

I am told that Schizophrenics give off a lot more endorphins than a normal person. We deal wth quite a few.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you for going into further detail about the track.. That is interesting about schitzophrenics giving off more odor..perhaps due to the mania that occurs.. I've been told that altzehemier patients often give off less odor, although I haven't noticed a change in my dogs ability to follow a trail on them to success - but haven't worked that many either.. I believe that could be because of the slower pace they do (at least compared to one who has a destination to get to and wanted to get there now, with a purpose ; they tend to wander, and take there time, even if a given place was on their mind to attain) and perhaps less sweat... Just a theory though... Need more data


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am glad I started the conversation! Drinking some coffee before I fully read the last posts but one thing I am coming to is seeing elements of old school trailing and old school tracking coming together here. [using the best of both]

The big issue for me of trailing without an early focus on the track is fringe dogs who, when they lose it, are so far off they can't recover. But I hear terms like scent inventory and getting a negative at the start if they can't find the track and I am thinking of those bloodhound friends.

So, do you train a negative alert [I know some did to definitely say "it's not here" or do you just rely on lack of body language and commitment for a negative? I know that is what I rely on for my HRD dog. If I don't see any body language....


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I do both for a negative. I would like trained indication, but both my dogs are pretty honest and I can usually read them well. So at the start, if no DOT can be found I like them to give me their passive indication.. On the trail/track, should broken chain odor occur or loss of track, I am usually just reading their body language


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have a while before I get to that point (just starting tomorrow am, no gopro LOL even more money to spend-just ordered her a harness) but I may be tapping you for how to train that in the future.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Well I will happy share anything I know and have learned... Hope it is reciprocal as I have many HR questions ... GoPros are great, although they can give that fish eye appearance at times. Kudu Pivot glasses are really nice (I don't own any, yet, but am saving for some) because no fish eye, and whre you look is what is videoed (as opposed to the brim of your hat, lol, done that before).. Love reviewing videoed trails though... Always learn so much.. I know you and Tilly will rock trailing/tracking


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Absolutely! Always good to get different perspectives.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Tomorrow we are getting a baseline because she does have a foundation on vegetative surfaces but one question since you are using a clothing article in the water (I recall that was called SIAB) for hydration, how long do you put the object in the water before spraying, what do you use? I would use a shirt or head scarf?, How do you decontaminate before next use if you have a new tracklayer?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

NancyJ said:


> Tomorrow we are getting a baseline because she does have a foundation on vegetative surfaces but one question since you are using a clothing article in the water (I recall that was called SIAB) for hydration, how long do you put the object in the water before spraying, what do you use? I would use a shirt or head scarf?, How do you decontaminate before next use if you have a new tracklayer?


I use a worn sock or a worn T shirt. We use new, one or two gallon spray bottles like for weeds. The bottles are only used for tracking. We use bottled water or filtered tap water. We do not use straight tap water as it has chloramines and will kill the bacteria or odor on the scent article. Distilled or bottled water is great. We use the scent article for one day and then empty the bottle. If you leave the scent article in the water it will start to stink after a couple of days. 

All of our track layers have their own bottle. But, if you empty it out and rinse it then I don't see a big issue with sharing it, and refilling with fresh water and a new scent article. We put the article in and start laying the track right away. Once the article is wet the odor is in the water.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)




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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)




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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know I watched a bunch of your videos but missed the one with the bottle. Have to buy a new sprayer and some distilled water.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We got off to a good start. First track on asphalt was about 50 feet with one turn and quick find after turn. Food drops about every 5 feet. She was very precise.

2nd track was about 100' with a curve and food drops every 10 feet for so with 3 articles. Not as precise in once section in the middle but I kept her on about 5' and only went forward when her nose was in the track. Afterwards I learned my tracklayer had contaminated that area with his own scent when he was working his air scent dog. Ok. Not fair to the dog at this stage in the game but once we got past it she got dead on the track and finished it.

Went out and got my 1 gallon sprayer and my water. Now to come up with my training progression. I will be honest in that it has been 2004 since I really did any trailing with a dog and I gave away my books. My memories were straight, add turn, crosstracks, Splits, track crossing over itself (for dog to pick freshest), terrain obstacles, age, distance, contamination at start, finding the start, complexities of building and traffic ( I recall cars could throw scent every which way and of course buildings but with HRD....at least we have that experience to throw in) [oh yes and now add serpentines]

Would love insights on a good book with training progressions? (maybe even if it does not have the SIAB and HITT stuff in it) / sequencing of same /additional challenges /etc.

I am also thinking since she already has down some basics starting with HITT without the SIAB should be adequate. Actually more of a help for me to reinforce "stick with the strongest scent" and to see the track during that phase of training.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Please let me know if you find a good book on adding/building complexity to tracking. I don't recall the title of the one my trainer recommended. I want to get back to tracking next winter and try for a TDX if I can keep tracking and trailing clearly seperated.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I personally like Jeff Schettler Tao of Trailing.. But, I might add, that we don't know where the strongest source of odor is except by observing the dog.. I know you know this, but I say it for anyone else lurking and enjoying this thread .. The deep nose that is preferred for IPO and on the track does not necessarily mean that is where the strongest source of odor is - just where we as humans believe it should be.. Any canine species is capable of trailing /tracking at fast speeds and with a nose slightly below shoulder height and above (air scent)... 

Anyhow, sounds like your girl did a great job and you are having fun Nancy .. I would definitely agree that your experience and knowledge of how odor moves in HRD will help in trailing..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Schettler is one of those polarizing figures. I have heard folks either love him or hate him. I follow his facebook page and even got a first edition, signed of his first book when he was pretty much giving it away. Alas. I gave it away to a trailing person.

A NAPWDA MT who is also a border patrol agent pulled a fellow on our team back into a more track sure dog and the bloodhound handler who was mentoring him objected and left, but her life was taking other turns. Once the teammate used, of all things, Johnson's old tracking dog book with his handling he handily passed our team test, the NAPWDA trailign test, and made his first find all within 6 months. 

So I know odor may not be strongest on the footfall path but trying to find that balance, and at a speed, that will actually find somebody before they are in the next county is such a delicate balance! 

I have been kind of waffling for months with Tilly thinking "she is a trailing dog" not an airscent dog and putting most of my energy into helping another teammate certify his awesome air scent dog and working with Beau. She was so happy to be pulling into a harness today.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

To me, the number one thing that gives me stomach flips is how far off the footfall track to allow. I understand the human odor definitely can be strongest in areas like brush/shade vs open ground and it can move downhill and rain can move it as well.....

I have just seen too many dogs get hopelessly lost in the fringe. Fortunately Tilly does not seem to be a fringe kind of dog. [some seem more inclined than others]. It is nice to have the ground disturbance to help carry through gaps in the human odor.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I think any 'method' or 'teacher' will have the following and those who despise, lol.. I believe that if we take what we like from those who offer their experience and discard the parts that don't work for our particular dog/situation, we can form a pretty solid functioning system... I've had my dogs right on top of tracks days old and when compared by GPS, they looked almost seamless... And I've run tracks where the winds, humidity, terrain, whatever, caused the odor to be 100m to the side, parallel to the track, including the bulges and turns, but just a distance off to the side.. Again, GPS correlation shows the dog working almost perfectly to the track laid, 100m to the side. So I know the odor was there in force... 

I've tried to think of a way to have the tracklayer lay a visible representation of what odor is doing. Having talked to a very experienced and fellow trailer (and very experienced in HRD and air) about this she thought maybe a fog machine (portable) with powder detergent and some sort of fluorescent ink/oil(?) that would allow the trailer, to visually see why the dog is off the track (footsteps) and where scent pooled.. Obviously it won't be as accurate as we would like as we aren't even fully sure what secofoc9the dog locks onto or how to make a pseudo of odor, but, if it lends a visual to how easily odor moves from where we believe it to be, it can help us help our dogs by either not interfering, or understanding better their behavior changes.. Obviously refinement on the idea is needed.. Hard enough to get tracklayer let alone carrying a fog machine! LOL! 

Glad Tilly got a track  I bet she was thrilled and a hoot to watch.. She sounds like a natural


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I have huge admiration for you Nancy.. Seriously.. I know how easy it can be for me to suddenly and without provocation doubt my dog as I try to analyze why she/he did something, and I've been solely a trailer before going into air.. To have been an air scent handler and have so much liberty in directing your dog and using your eyes other than just observing your dog (as they may be out of visual range until the refind alert) and then to have to blindly trust your dog is HUGELY hard.. At least from those I've talked to that have done this.. As a trailer, we are definitely more than just an anchor on the end of the line, but we are solely dependent upon the dog. We make note of body language changes and mentally mark or use a way point in order to retain a tricky trail if odor runs out for some reason, but we don't have the luxury of griding and using our own visual abilities to scan and find the person.. Our eyes are on our dog.. Or ducking, diving, being smacked by branches etc, lol! 

So I can understand the butterfly issue in the gut.. I know you will rock this though!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I completely appreciate the insights you bring as one who has fully taken the plunge and become so knowledgeable in a relatively short time. It has been gratifying to see that!

I think the foundation must be set in conditions in which we have some confidence about odor and then "trust yer dog" along with many hours of taking the knowledge of scent theory, internalizing it, and become an equal half of the partnership. I posted here hoping you would respond! 

What I get most of all when working with the dog is realizing the combination is better than either one alone - the synergy - the partnership that has stood the test of time.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you.. It has been a wild ride and a crash course in some ways.. It ironically helped having two dogs at the same time. Both having vastly different body language and approach, but both with strong trailing skills and hunt drive.. Running a minimum of two trails a day most days quickly tacks on experience and the opportunity to learn from mistakes and correct decisions... But I am always learning and have always enjoyed reading your posts and learning from them. 

I love your last paragraph. I like to think that odor and the trailing dog and handler have a symbiotic relationship.. The coupling of odor to a dog in hunt, attached to his handler with unspoken words telegraphed through the line, a picture is painted of someone's movement long passed.. Really quite beautiful, and truly powerful and connecting..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Track three this am Hydrated. Two dogs being walked in neighborhood and our cat following us. Honestly my husband will be harder to train than her. She is chilling in the house now finding every squeaky toy so I will give her some time with that before feeding her and putting her up for awhile.


Only thing. I can tell when she has air scented subject. Normally I would let her take me in that way. Should I? On an unknown track I think i would but would mark last known point and recover at that point of the head pop does not result in find.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I would let her for you can't control the wind or where odor goes, or how she detects - no matter how hard we try (I've had wind do a complete 180 from when the track was laid to when it was run - so from behind me to right into the dog) and she isn't wrong, she is doing her job  

I have found too, humans are wayyyy harder to train then the dogs, lol!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes, of course. Set up is everything. I recall how heartbroken when a friend set up a challenging 3 mile over night trail (this was 2004) through all kinds of terrain. Only to have me start the dog, have her pop up her head and take me straight to her. 

Her track had doubled back on itself and the dog did what the dog was supposed to do. She was a great little dog (Cyra). Too bad she wound up dysplastic and I had to wash her. 

I think the serpentines will be very useful to avoid this problem.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Awwww.. Yeah, I have had that happen as well and it is frustrating, especially when you are wanting to work a specific aspect, or study the behavior of the dog on trail.. I try hard to not have my subjects do horseshoes due to the ease of the air scent if winds change.. But some people really don't understand the skill of track laying, lol.. 

So today, I had to 18hr old trails to run. My tracklayer told me the general area of the PLS for the first track. I arrive to have campers, trailers and off road bikers everywhere and on top of my PLS (or so I thought). I scent my girl and as I walk her around the best I can she is mobbed by loose dogs.. Everybody is calling their dog who ignores them fully, but nobody walks up to grab their dog. Many had already asked what I was doing and had questions about SAR and so they knew I was working.. Finally, we make our way through the maze of dogs and I think my girl has grabbed the track.. But she stops and looks like she wants to give me a negative but doesn't finish with the indication (a sit). However, we have dogs barking and somebody screaming "Rose! Rose! Rose COME!" and Rose of course running up behind my girl. So I figure the body language is indicitive of the chaos going on around us.. I wait patiently and my girl starts trailing, but, now I am wondering if after all this distraction we are on my tracklayer scent OR just the freshest track that has been laid by the quantity of people here.. She doubles back and heads up a path head popping to the north end of the forest road and along the river. She weaves her way to the road, again head popping upstream, crosses the road, gives a negative on a path and trail that I figured my tracklayer might take, and jogs down the road south... Veering off the road up a side little known path and to my subject.. Yay, right.. Sort of.. So I talk with my tracklayer and explain the chaos and try to get an idea of what she had done. The app we use for trscklaying is outstanding, but in the chaos I had forgotten to start my track so no comparison could be done.. 

As it turns out, the PLS was NOT the PLS! The actual PLS was north and along the river upstream of where I started her.. So my girl air scented herself to the closest part of the trail, and made her find. I was irked at my tracklayer for giving me terrible directions (she confessed she was way off on her description) but more irked that I misread my girls negative, although I have never had the constant interruption of dogs and motor bikes every time I tried to start her.. So I worked a negative problem y giving her a scent article of someone who has not been in the forest for over a year and cast her for the trail.. She cast herself and gave negative body language and then her sit... You boys trail was gorgeous and almost perfect on the track.. Not bad for 24% humidity and a warm 80F,18hr aged single blind (knew general end spot)..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Very impressive for the dog to work through all that. And for your for realizing you misread the negative. I think many times people get lucky and don't figure out they messed up. 

I am looking up your app. I would like for my tracklayer to be able to send it to me and to know how precise it is. At least in open sky conditions. I find GPS in phone tend to be pretty accurate as long as you are moving.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thanks.. I was impressed at my girl for sure.. Very mad at myself... Seems human error is more prevalent with me, lol. I agree, luck and air scenting into the trail is definitely factors at times - which is ok if a life is saved, but not something I want to practice or train for, lol! 

The Mantrailing app is awesome and they, the developers are always listening to their users and refining it. Having the tracklayer able to send their track to you before the trail is run is wonderful. Being able to check if you feel your dog is off, or whatever, besides the end result in seeing how close odor was to the track is awesome.. I do wish it gave a satellite view as well, but I'm sure it will happen sooner or later.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am looking but I think I would have to buy it for every tracklayer. May have to just compare GPS traces afterwards.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

The free version allows for I think 5 tracklayer tracks. So if you bought it for $5.23 a year, and whomever laid your track used the free version and deleted their track after sending it to you, you probably won't have a problem.. Just a thought.. I bought it for my main tracklayer, just to be sure, but I can see how if you have a lot of different tracklayers it could be a problem if they don't have the app. I used to use Endomondo, but you can't have an overlay error feature and it was more of a 'show me the track' post run..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We ran two tracks tonight. One was a hydrated fresh track on asphalt and the other aged 20 minutes, without hydration track on concrete. 

The hydrated track she was all over the place and the older track she was dead on. 

I think that there was just so much air scent on the hydrated track because of how fresh it was I could have cut her loose and she would have ran to my subject. My old rule of thumb was not to run < 20 minute old tracks because in SAR we would not get them that hot. She had to work on the older track with her nose down to get odor.

A lot of this is me regaining my bearings on trailing.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> Thanks.. I was impressed at my girl for sure.. Very mad at myself... Seems human error is more prevalent with me, lol. I agree, luck and air scenting into the trail is definitely factors at times - which is ok if a life is saved, but not something I want to practice or train for, lol!
> 
> The Mantrailing app is awesome and they, the developers are always listening to their users and refining it. Having the tracklayer able to send their track to you before the trail is run is wonderful. Being able to check if you feel your dog is off, or whatever, besides the end result in seeing how close odor was to the track is awesome.. I do wish it gave a satellite view as well, but I'm sure it will happen sooner or later.


I am looking to start Mantrailing..which app is this?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Lol.. It is called: The Mantrailing (app) and believe it is on all OS 's .. Welcome to the awesome fun of mantrailing


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Sounds like your confidence in trailing is coming back Nancy .. It is amazing how a hot trail can, sometimes, be more difficult than an aged track. But odor has subtleties and intricacies that our study noses can't understand, lol.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We are working up my training progression now. . Sooooo many variables.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Stubby noses not study noses (stupid smartphone changes things without permission!) 

Variables, ah, yes, the very things that keeps trailing in the 'practice' rather than 'perfection'... Ran two technical trails today, urban. Left, right, left, right etc at each intersection. First dog had a half mile trail and he ran it beautifully. Even when the subject threw in an extra' right ' and full block he wasn't thrown and kept working.. But then the winds changed.. No longer to mourning back it was now blowing full into us. 

My girl came out and began her track and ran the first half mile with great precision. The next series of blocks though had grassy alleyways and larger yards. She head popped to the correct left turn, but opted to continue forward one extra block, then left. The wind blowing into us at 14mph steady with 20mph gusts not helping.. She cut up and then did another left following the blowing scent. I knew what was happening and did not want to interrupt her flow of work-out the problem. She would stop, and look back, then move forward again only to stop and look back. I had feeling her subject was only a block over and up one, which she was, but my girl was on track, but working backwards on that block yet getting full blasts of fresh odor through the grassy alleyway.. When she finally gave a negative (body language vs trained indication) I cast her back over the block she had just worked backwards and she grabbed the trail again, nose to the ground and finished strongly - her subject was walking away from her and she blocked her path and sat for her treats.. 

Odor is truly amazing in how it moves, and hides, but more amazing is how the dogs work it... I am always humbled by their talents..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh to only see the world through a dogs nose for a bit. I bet it is fascinating.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

NancyJ said:


> Oh to only see the world through a dogs nose for a bit. I bet it is fascinating.


While we label our dogs with names, I wouldn't be surprised it they "name" us with our smells. Could you imagine having a friend that instead of thinking of her as Sally, you think of her as "coffee smell" and maybe Joe would be "sugar donut" and the teen down the street "too much aftershave". :grin2:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Training is going well. Working on increasing age and distance and contamination. We also are doing well with starts and direction of travel. Most recent track had a jogger run over it after it had been set and it did not phase her. We also did our starts in the contaminated area of a frisbee golf course.

I am not sure if she shows a strong body language and wants to leave the track showing she is near the subject (I guess they call these proximity alerts) if I should unclip her and let her air scent in* (or keep on lead in unsafe area), leaving my flanker to mark the track, or whether I should put her back on the track and encourage her to finish. I am thinking the former. For a head pop I would just note it, note the wind direction, and call into the IC for planning.

*thing is she has a solid recall/refind alert.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

You're using subjects instead of articles for her find at the end of the track? Or are you trailing?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes. Subjects. Terminology trailing/tracking means so much different to different people. I am How about this. Technically you would say trailing based on most common usage. I want her to follow the scent trail of the subject. SAR. She is naturally pretty tight to the track. She is already scent discriminatory..we have decided to apply this to search and rescue as opposed to sport but build on her performance on hard surfaces. Work with her as a lower threshold dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Aha based on SWGDOG terminology I would use "trailing" as we start with a scent article. with more of our focus on the ground disturbance and foot odors (Gerritson, as well as Bowling) vs simply the airborne rafts (Syrotouk)


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

:thumbup: Me too but I'm new. Tracking was just a foundation, we've transitioned to trailing. Appreciate this thread.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There is a lot of variation and many different schools of thought on the topic!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Personally, I would leave her on line into the subject.. Right now, on short aged problems you may not see this occur, but I've had it happen many a time where the proximity alert is a quarter mile away or more.. Just scent pool, or direct line eddy of odor to the dog gives that fresh scent, but as I'm sure you know we'll Nancy, with HRD, alerts can happen a loooong ways off in certain conditions... But that is my line of thought.. She has a sold refund alert, so... Could be ok


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well would you encourage her to get back on and work the track or let her work out the airscent onlead, leaving the flanker to mark the spot. Working out an airscent from a great distance onlead is probably more time lost than actually working out the rest of the track. 

I have seen clear COB and headpops at that distance but never the full blown "let me rip the line out of your hands" excitement unless we were very close.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I personally would have the flanker mark the spot.. This is the tricky side to trailing.. We don't know where the strongest source of scent is at, or why it is there.. I have had long distance proximity alerts, but usually the dog is working a parallel path to the track, even if it is 100m off of the actual footfall... Moreover, the dog needs to be allowed to follow the odor however it comes to them and learn from the mistakes, if they happen.. Same for us, as we learn to read our dogs better when it is a true wind carried odor vs. blown odor comingled with fresh odor from subject.. 

The only hesitation I have is for your ankle.. If your girl pulls even half as hard as my girl.. Holy carumba! You end up being a kite at the end of a strong wind.. Lol..


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

An addendum... Outside of horseshoe style tracks, or where a subject backtracks, OR, and this one probably pertains to you more than anything, in an urban environment and the winds are funneled via an alleyway or a large parking lot.. Most of the long distance proximity alerts don't turn into an air scent problem. The dog alerts and speed picks up, head pops in the direction of fresh odor but the dog is most often obedient to the odor on the trail.. Outside of again, a blast through an alleyway where the fresher track can be reached and the full track gets sliced and the dog skips a portion and goes to the next part of the track.. That is where a good tracklayer is important and they don't lay box type trails where the dog can air scent through an alley or open area and cut the track..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I had a close alert where my subject was under a bridge. We got on top of the bridge and the dog started dancing and as soon as she could get off to the side and under was the day I realized I need to wear gloves dang that hurt. She pulls into the harness normally but is manageable but when she gets close she will take your arms off.

Our challenge this weekend is going to be crossing deer trails and beds and through some known hog contamination areas. She has a fondness of game odors we need to 'get over'. 

It is a property where a teammate hunts and he gets to do a lot of dog training there between hunting seasons. (Well I think you can shoot hogs year round but they usually do that at night from the pictures I have seen him take).


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Yes, those proximity alerts, the ones where their whole bodies tingle and electrical currents and sparks are seen off their hair...yes, those, I would let go, especially if down a steep hill or danger...been there, done that, lol..

Does she have a good "leave it" command? My boy used to be very animal oriented, and on a rare occassion my girl, but I can tell by their tail set (it usually lowers) when they are 'dual' trailing. At that time I give a 'focus' command and they shape up quick and return to their subjects odor trail. What really sucks is when grouse, deer, or a chipmunk/squirrel darts out directly in front of them... "Leave it "and "focus" are shouted and they get back to work quickly, but usually the prey instinct kicked in first and my shoulder just about leaves its socket on the first dive.. They are a bit revved up due to adrenalin dump for the next 30 seconds, but a "Good girl/boy, focus" is usually all it takes to steady them once again and keep them working with a smooth flow..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh yes. She will leave it but I want her to learn animal odor does not 'pay' in the first place. And I think running fresh human tracks right over some deer beds and a quick find right after should help. 

Beau is the best darned dog on this. I still recall on a real search a teammate frantically calling me on the radio because he had disturbed a group of about 5 deer and he was worried about Beau. They thundered by us about 100 feet away and Beau did not even notice them. He would not notice a freight train if he was working. We have walked right up on bedded does and have them take off in front of us. Not a problem . Tilly. Tilly would have to be called off.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Wow, Beau sounds amazing! My dogs are good, but they would still react to instinct, although easily refocused. If I saw it in advance or they were grazing aways away, then no reaction, but suddenly darting in front of them, well... I remember having an aged trail laid for me. The next day I want to the PLS (this was double blind) and the whole area was just turkey tracks, feathers and turkey poo...my girl seemed revved up and I was worried she was turkey stalking, but she made her find almost on top of the tracks. Just the beginning was a bit off, and I could probably attribute that to the turkey horde scratching about and mucking up my PLS, lol..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Went well today. Of course the two tracks we ran were fresh (20-30 minutes). The first track went through a deer bed and a game trail and the only place she was not a steamroller was at the dirt road crossing but my subject had actually spent a lot of time walking around the spot at the dirt road so till was actually having to cross an older track left by the subject to continue to finish the newer track. She worked it out and then tightened up after she committed to the new direction of travel across the road.

Second one was through a lot of human and deer contamination. For that we gave her the start and she had to work through one small area of contamination and then took off like a rocket even though it was hot and the sun was beating down on the track. She did a little quartering on the track but not much and was pulling so hard my arms are hurting. Wow. When did little Tilly get so strong?. I guess after working older tracks and stuff on concrete and asphalt. ........


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Parts of my body are saying. Fresh trail. In the woods. NOWAY! It is one thing to step over some deadfall with a walking stick while working a cadaver dog. Another with 70lbs of drive pulling like a speedboat. Seriously my goal for her is old complicated urban stuff. If I did not know more complex and older problems did not slow a dog down ..........zowie.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Lol, my girl still wants to run 48hr aged tracks.. So, I think alot of it has to do with the drive in the dog.. Since my girl turned 3,she has slowed to a steady jog (except proximity alerts then it is run) so I have to do a slow run to keep up.. That is slow for her.. Take care Nancy, urban has its own dangers but rural/woods will kick your butt with nasty hidden stuff like you described


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Ran (hobbled, had two blisters on heel and toe) two, five day old tracks (well, 4 days and 21hrs and 4days and 23hrs) today. Single blind, so had a general idea of DOT, but double blind hot track connected to end of aged track. Both dogs did amazingly well, especially since when trails were laid there were no campers, but holy canoli! Tons of campers when we ran it.. What I find interesting though, is that there seems to be a pretty big difference in 'warm' trails (24hrs of less) and cold trails in distance from actual footprints.. In warmer trails, my dogs are usually not as 'clean' or on top of the tracks. More drift odor then when it is cold tracks.. Then, I see a much closer, almost on top of the track run (excluding some days where weather or terrain plays a huge role).. 

Today's trails were just about on top of the tracks the whole way.. So, it tells me, or at least I interpret it this way, the odor they follow when a hot or warm trail is not necessarily the same substance (same smell, but different organic material?) as what they follow when the trail ages. Rafts, oils, glands, gases all contribute, and all are different weights and stickiness.. Obviously survivability and decompress rates change with dry weather and other conditions, but.. . Both trails were in the sun, crossed Gravel roads, went up and down hills, and had water crossings (river) (well, my girl was able to stop the hot trail before the river crossing). Out of the 1500+ trails run, I have found this more and more true, although it is just this year I have been pushing the aging aspect as far as I can.. I want to know how viable it is to run whatever aged track so I know my dogs abilities.. And since they aren't known trails I can't influence their decisions and muck up the results... But I find it very interesting that it is the reverse of what I would figure. Aged trail further off track, hot trail, right on top... Nope.. Well, not always, but consistently moreso.. 

Sorry, I rambled a bit.. Just working out my thoughts..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Your observation is consistent with Gerritson and with a book I am reading by Bowling.

Breaks down component odors

The crushed vegetation (longest duration)

Foot odors (Syrotouk kind of poo pooed that and considered nothing but rafts but Gerritson/Haak has some interesting info in K9 scent training as does Bowling). These do not deviate too far from the track, last longer than airborne rafts odor but less time than track odor. I am hoping the more old tracks and tracks on concrete we work the more focused she is on this element of human scent. Could explain why she runs so tight. 

Airborne raft odor which as we know can travel great distances.

Those are some impressive ages on your tracks. I would be delighted to get up to 24 hours on concrete and asphalt. Gerritson/Haak also says the chemicals in FRESH asphalt are a showstopper in terms of killing the odor. I would like to see because I know police hide small amounts of drugs in side of gas tanks and the dogs find them.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

What book are you reading Nancy? I would love to get it! 

I've done successfully 24hr double blind urban and about a 52hr single blind urban, however, I haven't noticed the same closeness to track I described in urban. I have had trails run straight through gas stations and my dogs had no problems, but, the thing I have seen difficulty in is after a large lawn of fresh cut grass. Was doing an urban trail and it ended (unknown to me) at the municipal Court/Library. They were mowing the large lawn and wow, what a change in behavior from strong solid pull and confidence to a bit bewildered, confused, still got it done, but definitely with a puzzler aspect to it.. Haven't trailed over or through fresh asphalt (or concrete, lol) but outside of caustic damaging odors, the only ones I've heard 'kill' scent or at least the dogs noses for a bit is cigarette smoke (haven't noticed that one, my girl while jogging a trail jogged by a lady smoking and put her nose on the end! Out the cigarette out, oops.. Lady laughed and met girl sneezed and trotted on and made find) and car exhaust... Interesting


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

As to the aging times, thanks.. 8 days is the longest thus far we have successfully run (by my girl) in a rural/but contaminated by campers setting.. Weather over those 8bdays included rain, sun, wind, but temps were moderate, no higher than 70's. Scent is more resilient then I previously believed, as these trails were all single blind with a double blind hot track of a half mile at the end (the trails were no less than 3/4mile and up to 1.5miles) and gps confirmed post run.. When a life is at stake, I am willing to try most anything with no promises, just my best straight forward, honest truth/results. But practice, I want to see how far my dogs can go just for my own knowledge and to see how odor changes over time... My confidence in trails more than 48hrs (and even then sometimes depending on weather and location /terrain) will remain guarded just because of the quantity of variables, however, I run mostly aged trails no less than 16hrs old with a connecting hot trail (to keep the dogs thinking about freshest track rather than whatever chemical breakdown the aged trails offer) as my usual practice.. Several times a week minimum.. I try to get urban in several times as well, and vary those from 5hrs to 24hrs as a norm..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Gerritson/Haak - K9 Scent Training and Bowling Police K9 Tracking (don't let the title mess with you it is about scent discriminatory tracking)...


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you I will check this out


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Is this two separate books? I found books by each author but not the exact title book with both authors...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Two separate books sorry. Does that make sense?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Yup, that makes sense, thanks!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Good problem tonight. Was to be an hour old asphalt and concrete problem with several turns. Then the rain started pouring around 50 minutes so we said lets work it.

The first leg was on the flat and the road was draining very well with a river of water to the side. Her head went up on the track and she cast about and settled in the grass next to the river of water until it ran out. First turn was uphill she made the turn within 3 feet of the actual turn (pulled a nice negative) and stayed with the actual track which was going uphill in the direction of the track. Second turn. A section ran through the grass. then she hit the section on sidewalk that was up against a building wall. Slowed down kept right on track. Sidewalk was wet but not flooded. Got past the corner of building. Head pop in direction of subject, made third turn then trailed right to him. Conferred with my flanker that in all cases she made the decisions and I did not influence her.

Very pleased!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Wonderful Nancy! Great job! Sounds like she is a wonderful natural  A great app is The Mantrailing app for Android and iPhone. It allows your tracklayer to lay a track, export it to you, and then you can work the trail blind/double blind, but glance at the track if needed. As you walk, your trail overlays the track laid so you get to see how close to the track you were/are.. Also, if you want to go double blind totally, but have the benefit of help, the phone can have boundaries set so it chirps at you if you drift 'too far' off track (you set how far too far is), thus allowing you to decide if it is environmentally or terrain dictative to why dog is doing what it's doing, or crittering /ghost trailing, jumped track, whatever...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have it on my phone now. And am going to talk with some of my teammates about it. I like the idea of it chirping at you else I would just put the Astro collar on my tracklayer but the problem there is that depends on a flanker. Now way I could watch a GPS and hang onto the little motorboat.

What I am liking is how much she really really gets into doing this.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Cool.. Yes I have enjoyed the app immensely, although I wish they had a satellite view, but, they are always improving it.. 

It is such a delight to be partnered with a tracking /trailing machine, lol.. The immense joy they get out of it and their dedication to the trail is powerful... Truly endearing..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Our team had our annual training weekend where we all hole up in a cabin for three days and train eat train eat. from 6am to about 11pm with a mid day break.

Tilly did her first double blind asphalt search from a car on a parking lot. Success. 

We did have an issue with finding the start on a 12 hour old problem but once she was on the track it was good. I am not sure whether it was the age or she was a bit urky in the am and was eating grass. I think because I delayed her breakfast because I did not want to work her on a full tummy.

Getting good at reading her head pops vs her "close up" alerts, too.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Great job Nancy! It has always surprised me how easily dogs adapt to aged tracks.. They seem so imposing to us, but both my dogs did the big jump from 2hr old to 20hr old (not that I suggest that, lol) with little issue. My boy took a bit to get solid on his starts with aged, but once he grasped the subtleties age brings, he had it.. 

Glad your training was successful and fun


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One of the tracks took me through a drainage ditch that my teammates could jump but I don't jump ditches with my ankle. So I handed her off and walked through it. Glad I had my spare boots in the truck . She did fine though. If she is going to work with me she is going to have to get used to that.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

A hand off is a great test of a dogs drive and nature.. And know all too well about wet soggy boots, ugh! 

I had a drainage ditch 'test'. Person was hiding about a half mile up but drainage ditch flowed down. My girl got stuck in the scent pool for a bit, but worked it out and made find. Had to cast her at a street where she grabbed the trail. The ditch had too much odor for her to not want to leave and there was no exit trail as she was about 300' from track. But the slope, shade and fresh odor flowing from the drainage ditch kept fish odor coming. Person was up from the ditch but on high end of slope.. Good times


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Nancy, on the last page you said "pulled a nice negative". Could you explain what that is please. The descriptions of all of the experiences on this thread are addictive to read and I can see it in the minds eye for the most part. Tons of info to learn from also. I just don't know what that term means.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Hesrtandsoul, since Nancy is currently not online, I will answer the question my way and she can answer your question when she pops back on.. This way you get two though for one question  

A negative is basically the body language the dog gives when they are out of odor. A 'smooth' negative (possibly the one Nancy is describing with just different terminology) is when the dog, while in motion, follows the drift odor past the turn, but then without breaking stride, rolls over themselves and in a different direction. Basically telling you the trail does not go that way, it is a negative for odor. Dogs give negatives I'm NW all the time, they just move past or ignore the boxes without odor. For trailing, we keep the dog in odor as much as possible, for HRD, narcotics, EDD dogs are in negative most of the time (hopefully ). 

I'm sure Nancy will explain what she meant specifically, but this is a general answer for negatives. Hope it helps.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Oh it sure did. And your explaination makes it easy to visualize. Thank you.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Good explanation. Thanks. I think to me the term "*pull *a negative" is the body language when a dog moves from being in odor to being out of odor..maybe it is regional....and, of course, when they move out of odor they attempt to recover. 

I think reading negatives is one of the most important things one must learn when trailing She has been pretty good at slowing down and making the turn or if past it, casting herself to recover but sometimes a dog will just keep moving in the direction of travel even though there is no odor. Must be able to read that change in body language


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

NancyJ said:


> Good explanation. Thanks. I think to me the term "*pull *a negative" is the body language when a dog moves from being in odor to being out of odor..maybe it is regional....and, of course, when they move out of odor they attempt to recover.
> 
> I think reading negatives is one of the most important things one must learn when trailing She has been pretty good at slowing down and making the turn or if past it, casting herself to recover but sometimes a dog will just keep moving in the direction of travel even though there is no odor. Must be able to read that change in body language


Is there such a thing as taking in all of the dogs signals subconsciously (not consciously knowing you are doing that) but then intuitively reacting to the dog appropriately with out giving it much thought or being able to say exactly what cause you to know. With exterior searches I'm pretty good at knowing when he is out of odor but is still hunting, (not crittering all business) following his wrong path but I couldn't tell you precisely what changes of behavior I saw.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think it is pretty much that way but if there is a possibility you would ever wind up in court you would have to be able to articulate what your dog does. I also have to do that before a certification test and if a department calls us with a dog handler flanking us they usually ask as well.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I find myself narrating out loud what I see sometimes. Helps to call it as you see it, and really let it sink in. But I think as we work odor specific dogs, we learn to read the subtleties they offer us and intuitively know if they are focused, working an odor concurrently with the odor they are supposed to work (partial K'9ing), when they are searching for odor, and when they are just goofing off. Takes thousands of hours in and out of odor to learn these things, but once you can see them well, they tend to transfer well over to other dogs, for the most part


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Our instructor about a month ago talked about narrating either out loud or in our head and had us practice it with a blind hide. It helps a lot. This past Sun I entered mock NW1 trial that a training center was offering. They used the white boxes for the container search and it was the perfect whished for do-over to the ORT miss. He lingered on a box sniffing exactly as he did that had caused me to call an alert at the ORT only this time I started narrating in my head "hold off, looks like he's on it but still figuring it out, give him some more time etc" about 7 seconds of sniffing then he abruptly moves back down, in odor sniffs a box, mouths the corner lightly and I call the alert.

Had I not started that narration, I may have blown it again. Interestingly, I had not used the narrating technique for a while so I don't know what prompted me to use it then but glad I did. Lol

Just figured I'd tell of my own experience to double up what you said on how useful it is.

Oh, we nailed all four searches. He made me look real good. Lol.

The need to explain the how and why in case of a court trial is a really good motivator to learn that body language. Last night I also wanted to know what a double blind was but didn't want to bug you with another question so I googled it. Double blind is when both the judge and the handler does not know where the source is. Just in case anyone else was wondering. 

Nancy, the more I read and learn about all that is necessary to being a real life working team in any of the venues, the more in awe I am of it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We set up double blinds a good bit and flag the hide locations as we search so the person who set them can verify. Dogs typically not rewarded by the handler unless they know for sure the dog has pinpointed the hide, but we do reward the session by doing a quick obedience drill afterwards and playing with the ball. Intermittent reinforcement. The bulk of training is single blind. In training we also do intermittent reinforcement. "Good work" "find more".

The dogs are expert at reading human body language and we can even sometimes "read" the evaluator on a single blind problem. To me known problems are for the learning phase of both dog and handler and when fixing specific challenges discovered in training or to give the dog a "reward" problem so they can find something. For example, after a real search, as soon as I get home the dog gets a quick find because we cannot take training aids with us to a search.

You learn body language a whole lot faster when you have to rely on it. Single blind with someone who can point out/narrate body language is good.


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