# Breeding top east with top west???



## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

I know that you guys don't get along. You know, the guy who breeds Czechs/DDR's with the guy who breeds West Germans. Seems to me that if breeders were really about the "best german shepherds possible" (Cuz that's all I read on these boards from the likes of all those high and mighty breeders who beat the crap out of anyone who asks any question on this board) then someone would be doing this. Breeding in the straight back, athleticism, and work ethic of the East with the black and red large frame of the west. IF someone is doing this already, please let me know. That's the person I'd like to buy dogs from.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

so based on your opinions of the lines, working line breeders should mix the lines just for black and red large frames? i dont think a pretty dog is their first priority.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Doesn't have to be their first priority, but some working lines are just butt ugly. It's not a sin to want a pretty dog.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

When you breed temperament and conformation should come first; then color dogs should compliment each other.you can find good and bad in any line. Most working lines have a lot of drive! Doesn't mean; they can't be great family dogs.a lot of show lines have little drive I hear; I know not all. The shepherd is a great dog! Sadly not all. The old timers; got together to work show and have fun and to try and better the breed.we all can learn something new each day. And we must never forget we are all different. Good luck to all we all love dogs. Bill

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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Czechs/DDR's with the guy who breeds West Germans" is not at all uncommon -- most of my pedigrees are this ! West German does include working lines and show lines .


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## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

Most working lines have been mixed already like Carmspack mentioned. It has happened more and more over the last 30-40 years. Finding pure DDR blood of Czech blood or West German is increasingly harder to do. I say don't mix the lines but have nothing against those who do.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I know that you guys don't get along. You know, the guy who breeds Czechs/DDR's with the guy who breeds West Germans. Seems to me that if breeders were really about the "best german shepherds possible" (Cuz that's all I read on these boards from the likes of all those high and mighty breeders who beat the crap out of anyone who asks any question on this board) then someone would be doing this. Breeding in the straight back, athleticism, and work ethic of the East with the black and red large frame of the west. IF someone is doing this already, please let me know. That's the person I'd like to buy dogs from.


 I'm sure if you search the internet both locally and a far you'll find this type of breeder.. Also check pedigree database's classifieds.. All kinds of breeders, kennels and dogs for sale..


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

So you want what, Enzo Manepo? He was a great working dog himself. Unfortunately, the only offspring of his that I personally saw was dysplastic.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Xeph said:


> Doesn't have to be their first priority, but some working lines are just butt ugly. It's not a sin to want a pretty dog.


Eye of the beholder.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

What I get is the OP wants a DDR/WGSL mix......he should talk to Robin Huerta...she is doing this

he says "black and red large frame"

As far as working lines, many breeders combine West German/DDR/Czech/Belgian/Dutch lines....

Lee


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

This is as close as I've found on the internet of what I'm talking about. I think with a couple more generations of selective breeding, we could end up with a Shepherd with the looks of the "show" dogs with the drive, athleticism, and straight back that was a staple of the breed in the earlier years. No more frog dogs or dogs that look like their butt is about to scrape the ground.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

JasonSwanny said:


> I know that you guys don't get along. You know, the guy who breeds Czechs/DDR's with the guy who breeds West Germans. Seems to me that if breeders were really about the "best german shepherds possible" (Cuz that's all I read on these boards from the likes of all those high and mighty breeders who beat the crap out of anyone who asks any question on this board) then someone would be doing this. Breeding in the straight back, athleticism, and work ethic of the East with the black and red large frame of the west. IF someone is doing this already, please let me know. That's the person I'd like to buy dogs from.


Breeding the top east with the top west would be a terrible way to go about breeding. If there is a specific quality you want to incorporate from a specific line of GSDs, then you want to take dogs from the one line that are correct/moderate in that trait for their lines, and breed the dog to a dog known to produce the what you are looking for to improve. And then you will want to pick the best puppy and breed it back into the lines, which you selected for health and temperament so that you are less likely to create more problems. 

The chances of getting what you want by breeding the extremes of both, or even the top dogs in both venues over-simplifies breeding.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

JasonSwanny said:


> This is as close as I've found on the internet of what I'm talking about. I think with a couple more generations of selective breeding, we could end up with a Shepherd with the looks of the "show" dogs with the drive, athleticism, and straight back that was a staple of the breed in the earlier years. No more frog dogs or dogs that look like their butt is about to scrape the ground.



Sorry - but the dog with the "looks" of the WGSL is not going to be an agile, athletic dog....they are big, they are long, they are not anything near or like the early dogs!!!! there are plenty of good looking working line dogs who ARE agile, who do have "straight backs" (and usually conformation of dogs in photos is manipulated to some degree) - and have drive...

Lee


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfstraum said:


> Sorry - but the dog with the "looks" of the WGSL is not going to be an agile, athletic dog....they are big, they are long, they are not anything near or like the early dogs!!!! there are plenty of good looking working line dogs who ARE agile, who do have "straight backs" (and usually conformation of dogs in photos is manipulated to some degree) - and have drive...
> 
> Lee


They also come in black and tan.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry , the dog you chose as "ideal" is far from that , my great apologies to the person who owns the dog and loves the dog .







Report this image







    

not athletic, not balanced , no muscle , no tone, conformation deficient , straight front, no stifle ,low withered, far too much tuck , coat should be better . This dog would be running downhill.

agreeing with Lee Ms Wolfstraum , the dogs that look like GSL's are not athletic -- see lack of endurance in the AD tests


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

in the OP's other post, he's actually looking for a stud dog to breed to his female it seems..


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

carmspack said:


> sorry , the dog you chose as "ideal" is far from that , my great apologies to the person who owns the dog and loves the dog .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tell us what you really think Carmen.


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

Carmspack I realize that this dog isn't ideal, I said she's as close as I've found to what I'm looking for. Seems like with some time someone could pull what I'm looking for out. I'm asking for help, and like I said in the opening this is what happens on this board. Those seeking to understand are broken down instead of given real help. If it was easy to find what I'm looking for, I'd be asking google not you guys.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

people ARE trying to help.....just because they don't agree with what you are saying is ideal does not mean they are not trying to help....you were given info from a person who is VERY experienced - take it as info to learn from instead of dismissing it....

Why would anyone experienced try to tell you how to breed for something that is considered poor quality by knowledgeable people??? Given you are interested in breeding, why don't you try to understand what is correct and desirable??? straight backed is not much of a criteria....most dogs are 'straight backed' in a candid pose - stacking changes the look....

Lee


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I don't think that was intended to break either you or the dog down, but rather to point out that a structural ideal should look different.

Unfortunately it was kind of conveyed in shorthand, and I honestly can't glean much from that bullet-point description either. I can (barely) follow about half of it, but that summary assumes more knowledge than I have.


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

Wolf-
I do believe that you're trying to help, and I appreciate it. I've spent the last 2 years looking at different dogs. My in-laws had an accidental impregnation and we got Nike for free. Since that point, I've dove into GSD's full bore. She ruined me, lol. I'll have GSD's forever now. I spent the better part of a year looking for Zeus. I looked at several of the reputable/high end breeders in NM and Texas to find him. We'll have him x-rayed and titled prior to Nike's next heat. She's really incredible. My police friend who leads our club comments every time she bites that he's never seen a "show" like her. Zeus however, lacks the full bore intensity that she has. He does well in comparison to most show dogs that I've seen though. Went to a schutzhund pre-comp in Lubbock and Nike would've walked away with it in that group of 35+ dogs. I know what I'm looking for. It might not fit the cookie cutter for GSD's, but judging by the direction that this breed is headed I think that's a good thing.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

JasonSwanny said:


> I'm asking for help, and like I said in the opening this is what happens on this board. Those seeking to understand are broken down instead of given real help.


I for one am unclear what you need help with. Are you looking for a breeder who is mixing DDR with West German working lines? Or are you simply asking if they exist? Because they do exist, in fact there are a lot of them now. 

Not sure what you mean by "broken down", but you come across like you have a chip on your shoulder. Most people don't like that.


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

Freestep said:


> I for one am unclear what you need help with. Are you looking for a breeder who is mixing DDR with West German working lines? Or are you simply asking if they exist? Because they do exist, in fact there are a lot of them now.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "broken down", but you come across like you have a chip on your shoulder. Most people don't like that.


Freestep, I know there are some who are doing this, but I was asking if anyone was doing it well. It's difficult to find ones who are using VA type SL dogs. They're just so valuable to waste opportunities on.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

JasonSwanny said:


> Freestep, I know there are some who are doing this, but I was asking if anyone was doing it well. It's difficult to find ones who are using VA type SL dogs. They're just so valuable to waste opportunities on.


Oh, you mean mixing DDR with German SHOW lines.

Yes, people are doing it, but it's not a popular thing to do. Most working dog breeders don't want "show dogs" in their pedigree. They look for outstanding working abilities, period. And most show dog people want to win conformation shows, so they don't want ugly workin' dawgs messing up their VA lines. But there are some who are striving toward the goal of well-rounded dogs that do well in conformation AND work.

I know there are at least a couple people on this forum who mix working and show lines, not sure if they are using DDR dogs specifically.


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