# I dont like this type of training.....



## GuardianShep (Apr 19, 2010)

I downloaded a training session video, and saw that the two germans they were showing are very obedient and focussed, but, i felt that there were not dogs..they have become semi-robots.they obey every command to the word, they are always looking the trainer,eagerly waiting for him to utter the next command.. as soon as he commands,at that instant, they both hurry to obey that whther it be 'sit','stay',crawl,run,fetch,jump hurdles,do hurdle track..anything they have been trained in..
this video was not a k9 or a police training session.

i appreciate such methods of training for working dogs-search and rescue,to help people with disability,army/police dogs.. where they will be mentally and physically working to the 99% efficiency. other that these working dog scenarios, i dont think a dog must be trained to be like a robot. the dog must be left to be himself, be a dog, use his brain instead of obeying the word his trainer says.

i dont know how it is with others. but, with me, i have had two GSD,and i have a 2.5month old male GSD puppy now. (ill not talk bout the puppy now as he s still in his learning phase. lets talk bout the older ones) my older GSDs came to my house as puppys, done a lot of destruction(landshark), been socialised extremely well, and they both (even my current puppy) is taught only two commands - sit, no.

sit is the first command which i teach.its not like a command, we do that word casually, and let him understand that we(i and my mom) are the controllers of anything - playtime,water fun,..anything at all..later on, i never have to use sit command, he knows.ive always wondered how they know..

no is the only command i use to control my dog. 'no' means = stop doing what he s doing. whther it be barking,diggin,biting,fighting,tugging,chewing...
both my elder dogs were socialised well, and are great with kids(i have lot of kids staying nearby who come to our house to play - we are the one with a german  ) the dogs, both were protective of our territory and more protective when the kids are here. they both played continuously with the kids but ALWAYS had an eye on the kids, and the world outside. i felt very safe bout leaving the kids with my dogs outside playing while i am inside. our property is fenced - so no one will go out. anything other than that, my dogs knew how to take care. they can be submissive, and commandeering at the same time. 

they both were all that a german shepherd needs to be(these are the certain subtle things which awed me.. the more i think bout them, the more i love geman shepherds). and i hope my current puppy will grow up to be like them.

i dont know how they understood all those small things..i never taught them much..they were left to learn on their own. and thats why i never like those dogs who are eagerly looking at the lips of their master waiting to obey anything his master says..

i have read that 'positive reinforcement'(i dont remember whether this is the right name) is a good method - appreciate and encourage good behaviour. i came to know that this is what i actually unknowingly did with my dogs. its not actually a command-obey thing.. its somthing what we unknowingly do with our children. never command, but, whenever the dog does an act that is expected of him, praise him. then the dog will try to do the same if the same situation arises anytime later.


im sorry to have made this long..
i certainly would love to know what others think on this matter and how you have trained your german. please comment and educate me..i might be able to train my current puppy better 
thanks for reading


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i personally prefer my dogs be as trained as i can possibly get them. I shouldnt have to repeat a command which our male has always had issue with. I dont want robot dogs but i want the dogs who listen and are behaved and obey the first time. I want the dog i can totally trust 150% to obey no matter what. Its for their safety and those around them. I dont need them by my side waiting for my next command but they are expected to listen and obey when they are told to do something. Beyond that, they're dogs. They can be dogs.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

jebinelias said:


> i certainly would love to know what others think on this matter and how you have trained your german. please comment and educate me..i might be able to train my current puppy better
> thanks for reading


Nope, you really don't want to know what I think......see I have a bunch of those obedience-trained dogs who like to watch me so they can stay actively involved in whatever game we're playing. No robots here, just a bunch of well-trained dogs. 

Believe it or not, good training at a high level is GOOD for dogs, and improves your relationship with your dog.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

jebinelias said:


> I downloaded a training session video, and saw that the two germans they were showing are very obedient and focussed, but, i felt that there were not dogs..they have become semi-robots.they obey every command to the word, they are always looking the trainer,eagerly waiting for him to utter the next command.. as soon as he commands,at that instant, they both hurry to obey that whther it be 'sit','stay',crawl,run,fetch,jump hurdles,do hurdle track..anything they have been trained in..
> this video was not a k9 or a police training session.


They sound like happy, well trained dogs. This is how I want my dogs to be. Just because they are drivey and focused while being worked, does not mean they don't get to hang out and be just goofy dogs when not being worked.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is called engagement and focus and can be very useful when a complex routine is coordinated between dog and handler. This really can't be compared to interacting in household living with the dogs.

Yes, you are right. One way of helping to reinforce desirable household behavior is to catch the dog doing something right and praise it. Positive reinforcement can train a good number of things.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

"They sound like happy, well trained dogs. This is how I want my dogs to be. Just because they are drivey and focused while being worked, does not mean they don't get to hang out and be just goofy dogs when not being worked."

Yes, when I am working my dog, when I toss in some obedience in our walks, I want a whole lotta focus and a whole lotta response. Snappy responses are great! 

The dog's attitude is best when it is "I know this! This gets her what she wants and me what I want!" To me it's striving toward mutual rewards.


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## GuardianShep (Apr 19, 2010)

DunRingill said:


> ...... who like to watch me so they can stay actively involved in whatever game we're playing. No robots here, just a bunch of well-trained dogs.
> 
> .......
> 
> Believe it or not, good training at a high level is GOOD for dogs, and improves your relationship with your dog.


i get your point.
in the end,no one is right and no one is wrong completely.






Samba said:


> It is called engagement and focus and can be very useful when a complex routine is coordinated between dog and handler. This really can't be compared to interacting in household living with the dogs.


hmm.yeah.hav seen such action in first hand as i have a police canine training academy near my home.their job demands such attention.yes,it cant be compared to house training or agility.



Samba said:


> Yes, you are right. One way of helping to reinforce desirable household behavior is to catch the dog doing something right and praise it. Positive reinforcement can train a good number of things.


i didnt know this was what i was doing untill i read it somewhere.works great with the dogs ive interacted with.






middleofnowhere said:


> Yes, when I am working my dog, when I toss in some obedience in our walks, I want a whole lotta focus and a whole lotta response. Snappy responses are great!
> 
> The dog's attitude is best when it is "I know this! This gets her what she wants and me what I want!" To me it's striving toward mutual rewards.


'I' think that getting a dog to think like that "ill get what i want when i do what he wants" will make him reward oriented. so, i guess, we can agree to disagree..


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

jebinelias said:


> 'I' think that getting a dog to think like that "ill get what i want when i do what he wants" will make him reward oriented. so, i guess, we can agree to disagree..


for most of our dogs, the "reward" they want is praise from their owners! A pat on the head or a "good dog" is also something I'm happy to give. My dog will even work for a smile - he loves to make me happy. Some people hear "reward" and automatically assume that the dog is working for treats.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Another reward that dogs will work for is interaction and attention from you. 

When I started classes, I thought teaching my dog to pay attention to me was the most brilliant thing I have ever heard!! 
Genius!! Just love it!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

A well-trained dog with a job is a happy, healthy canine! 

Training has numerous benefits. You should always strive to challenge and stimulate your dog's mind, body and spirit. Just like people, dogs need to work to feel good about themselves and drain energy. Certain commands people train their dogs helps keep them safe, as well. Take the 'recall' for example - if you are out and about and your dog runs in the direction of traffic, a recall keeps him safe and alive.

Dogs are domesticated animals, which means that they were bred by humans to be a certain way. This breeding makes dogs want to be with us, to please us, and to work for us. It makes them happy. As for the highly trained/highly focused working dogs - as long as they come home every night and curl up with their family I think they are okay. Usually, those highly trained animals have a lot of 'off' time to just be a dog.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Sorry, but I have to agree with everyone else... A dog who watches his owner eagerly waiting his next command is a dog who's focused and engaged and likely a dog who's well behaved all around. Training establishes a bond as well as authority in a humane manner and actually minimizes conflicts around the house.

Now, a sit down stay come heel routine might be enough for most breeds to fulfill their mental needs but not for (well bred) GSD's. These dogs need much more training than that or 10x more exercise... To keep the GSD happy you have a certain ratio of mental stimulation, physical stimulation, and of course love and petting but those are unfortunately secondary... if you give him less mental stimulation you need to give him more physical stimulation and vice versa...

Now what I don't like to see is a dog who obeys every command but does so slowly and unsurely (is that a word?) - in other words a dog who's scared to death of getting corrected and was probably trained using heavy compulsion. When I see a dog focused on his owner and eagerly performs what he's asked to do I know the dog was trained "correctly"... A compulsion trained dog will be that dog who looks everywhere BUT at his owner during a down stay, things like that (although that can also mean a highly distractable dog)


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

let's make excuses for lower levels of training. Don't worry, it's not uncommon. Breeders make excuses all the time to lower the bar and can rationalize it in all sorts of ways.

High levels of training are just that, your dog is engaged with YOU eagerly and happily. it may look robotic to you, it's how you rationalize not training to that level, but still insist your dog is trained somehow "better" cause they aren't "robots". 

But if your dog isn't looking at you, itsn't engaged with you, and isn't listening to you, it's because they don't really care about you at that moment, they don't find you that interesting, and they really aren't very well trained. 

I gotta chuckle a bit when some think my dogs are somehow less dog and more robot than theirs. They can screw off with the best of them and I havne't met a dog that was "more" dog anywhere yet. If you have one, I'd like to see it.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

The happier my dogs are...the quicker they respond. They don't respond quickly because they are afraid or submissive or robots. They respond quickly because they are engaged and amped up in drive. They get excited, they move fast. When they start losing focus and engagement, they began performing commands slower, looking in other directions, etc.

They are all house pets too. One is laying at my feet sleeping right now.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

About "robotic" dogs not being "normal" dogs - I go to two formal training sessions a week, and that is for Schutzhund training. We take turns working our dogs with others helping and giving feedback, and alltogether one hour of actuall training time, one-on-one with my dog. At home, I throw in a little bit of focus work and obedience work here and there, so let's be generous, and say a total of one hour of impromptu obedience outside the formal training sessions. 

So two hours a week of focused obedience work, the rest of the time, I have house-dogs allowed to pull on the leash, play fetch, chew sticks, chase squirrels, cuddle on the sofa, play and wrestle with each other, dig holes. So they are "normal" dogs for the rest of the week. 

A week has 168 hrs.

Out of 168 hours, they have about 2 hours of formal focused work. So the unatural training is less than 1.2% of their time.
That is far from making them into robots, but it goes a long way in getting my dogs primed to always be ready and willing to listen and want to interact with me at a moment's notice.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

also, the dogs in that video don't fit my definition of "robotic" I have seen obedience videos where the dogs are flat, mechanical and stiff. They move, literally, like robots.

by your own statement, the dogs were eagerly awaiting the next command - to me that says they are enjoying what they are doing.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

jebinelias said:


> i felt that there were not dogs..they have become semi-robots.they obey every command to the word, they are always looking the trainer,*eagerly *waiting for him to utter the next command.. as soon as he commands,at that instant, they both hurry to obey that whther it be 'sit','stay',crawl,run,fetch,jump hurdles,do hurdle track..anything they have been trained in


To me, the word EAGERLY is the key.

I've seen dogs doing the exact same thing described above but their ears were back, head down, you could almost FEEL them cringing.

THAT type of dog has been trained in a way I would NEVER train my dogs.

My boy Mauser will THROW himself into a Down if I ask him ... while I'm holding his ball, because he KNOWS I'm going to throw it for him. 

Reward based training (with correct use of negatives) is the only way I will train my dogs.

With some dogs you will get that "I will do ANYTHING you want" attitude with this type of training. Other dogs aren't as demonstrative but as long as they are happy, it's good.

I don't work enough with my dogs to get the instant obedience nor do I really want that (right now). I don't compete so I don't care if I have to tell them Sit twice.


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## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

A perfect training session for me would be my dog getting all happy and attentive with lots of focus when I say "Lets go to work" or get a treat bag. Then we can go between periods of strong attention and quick little play sessions. I think that teaching the dog that training time is fun time will always work out the best. Also, if you can teach them to go from 100% crazy playing to calm, attentive listening a second later your dog will learn a lot of self control.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

jebinelias said:


> i get your point.
> in the end,no one is right and no one is wrong completely.
> 
> <snip>
> ...


"get what I want when I do what he wants" often means the dog is rewarded by the interaction and activity. Do you seriously think my Flyball Grand Champion was racing flyball for a COOKIE? She'd spit the cookie out and give you a look like "you're crazy, get that out of my face!"

The whole "agree to disagree" thing implies some common ground of understanding, and I'm not sure we have that here. If you've never done any real training with a dog, how can you be so sure you understand what everyone else here is saying?

I seriously doubt anyone watching my 8 year old dog fly over jumps in the obedience ring is thinking "Oh that poor robo-dog, he's only doing that because he HAS to!" Anyone can see when a dog isn't enjoying what they're doing, they don't hesitate to show it.


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## GuardianShep (Apr 19, 2010)

sorry for the delay in reply

first of all, i havent seen all the dogs in the world and how they are trained. i was just commenting generally on HOW MUCH A DOG DEPENDS ON HIS TRAINER and HOW MUCH HE DEPENDS ON HIS SENSES/INSTINCTS/PREVIOUS TRAINING, IN THE ACTIVITY HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN ACTIVE PART OF..because, after seeing that video i mentioned (i know that the dogs in the video enjoyed that session 100%),i was thinking what these dogs would do if put in a real life situation.will they look back to their trainer and wait for him to utter the command, or, will they act??

i dog who relies more on the trainer is a robot (i know that the term 'robot' is overrated, but i cant think of a better word)
a dog who relies mostly on his previous training to act according to the situation he is put in - is better (not because he is more intelligent or anything of that sort, but because of the self confidence he has due to the good training he got.)


for example(just an example) : a decoy is used in a training session. 
a dog in that session knows what he s supposed to do..
but, outside training classes,a dog should act based on what he knows and should not rely completely for the trainer to speak out the command(if the trainer is injured,he'll not be able to)


i completely understand the nessesity,advantages and disadvantages of training a german and i m never against a well trained animal,let alone a GSD.even the most highly trained dog is never something other than a dog.he gets his own time to be all cuddly and goofy and playful..

i thnk i mentioned once, i have a canine training academy here near my house.i participated in those classes initially when my first dog was a puppy.i was a regular visitor mostly with my dogs (to let him play with those stranger dogs after their sessions), and sometimes, i go alone.i have seen obeidience classes, house training classes, police training sessions, agility, decoy, detection work, training with an already trained dog.. etc..so, even though i m not a qualified trainer, im not new to training.also i know that my dogs were not the best trained ones in the area.


lastly,if there was any way i could upload the 220MB video which sparked of the thought, i wud have done that..


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

DunRingill said:


> Nope, you really don't want to know what I think......see I have a bunch of those obedience-trained dogs who like to watch me so they can stay actively involved in whatever game we're playing. No robots here, just a bunch of well-trained dogs.
> 
> Believe it or not, good training at a high level is GOOD for dogs, and improves your relationship with your dog.


I would tend to agree. All that shows is that the dog has been worked with a lot and has a very strong relationship with the trainer/owner. I have seen the exact same behavior that you describe in a jack russell doing tug training. They reward the dog with the power of plaing tug. and it is an EXTREME positive reinforcer. Especially for dogs that become obsessed with paying fetch or tug or whatever. The tug being the reward The dog CRAVES that positive reinforcement and desires to please the trainer and follow the commands and focuses on the trainer because he craves to play tug. they love it. 

So I would say DunRingill is right you really dont want to know what we think, it seems you've already made up your mind. and what a wasted existence to have a dog only ever be trained with the word no, they must be awefully bored.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not trying to start a flaming argument war with you I really am not but you really need to educate yourself before posting like that. I would like to help point you in the right direction with the following videos. Keep in mind I am neither afiliated with any of these nor do I get anything out of these videos other than the benefit of the training advise. 




 <---leerburg the power of tug




 <--- playing tug with your dog really watch the amount of focus this dog has for the commands.

Then read this article on drive and focus. Leerburg | Building Drive and Focus DVD - leerburg is in business to sell videos, but they also talk a lot about the training on their website. they might actually sell more videos if they lowered their prices and talked about them on their website less, but i guess they are trying to advertise the videos better. I hope this helps you understand the concepts better. again please dont think that I am trying to flame you or start an argument, I hate when people just argue over stupid crap on this forum.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

jebinelias said:


> sorry for the delay in reply
> 
> first of all, i havent seen all the dogs in the world and how they are trained. i was just commenting generally on HOW MUCH A DOG DEPENDS ON HIS TRAINER and HOW MUCH HE DEPENDS ON HIS SENSES/INSTINCTS/PREVIOUS TRAINING, IN THE ACTIVITY HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN ACTIVE PART OF..because, after seeing that video i mentioned (i know that the dogs in the video enjoyed that session 100%),i was thinking what these dogs would do if put in a real life situation.will they look back to their trainer and wait for him to utter the command, or, will they act??
> 
> ...


It sounds like you are talking about Defense training, which is something that is VERY heavily focused on with police dogs. They do that because they really dont want a dog to do this 



That is a ridiculous dog that I would almost bet money is not still being used without a ton of remedial training.


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## JulieAG (Nov 9, 2008)

I also agree with most here that training is the foundation for building a more rewarding and loving relationship with your dog. I train my 3 year old GSD regularly in schutzhund based obedience and bite work (my club is rather casual... we do not compete). My dog LOVES to play frisbee and chase a ball, but he also LOVES to work. And whats so great about it is the training and work I've done allows me to put him in situations where he can really enjoy being a dog. He would much rather run loose, play fetch and work with me than go to some overcrowded dog park.

I currently live in an apartment complex and recently for his exercise I have been taking him to a nearby park that is HUGE... it has bike paths, jogging paths, soccer fields, ponds, tons of open space, everything in that sense. And of course with that comes with many other people, young children, dogs, ducks and squirrels. I can let him run off leash and chase his ball and know that because he is reliably trained, he can enjoy himself without being a nuissence to others. For example, a 'REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE' we can be running (or rather him running, me walking several yards behind him) and someone on a bike will be approaching. Instead of giving that biker anxiety that he will have to slam on his brakes to avoid hitting my dog at some point, I can give my dog a down command at a distance and he will drop to a down and stay there. OR a simple recall. Either way, the said biker can go on his way without being bothered by someones irritating, untrained dog that got in his way and could have potentially caused him to have an accident. And usually, these people thank and compliment me on having such a well trained dog! It's a great feeling that my dog relies on me for direction and I feel that the majority of dogs that don't have this training and relationship with their owner can enjoy being a dog to this extent. Yes, your dog may know the commands 'sit and no' but will he listen in an open environment with people, other dogs, children ducks and squirrels? This 'robotic training' can apply to real life in several ways. Not that I would ever let my dog run loose near a highway but that biker can be someone in a car. 

On the contrary my neighbor has 2 GSDs. She will bring them outside and let them drag her over to our little dog park. Then she'll turn them loose and watch them run around for about 5 minutes while she smokes a cigarette. And then they'll drag her back instead. And needless to say these dogs are rude, obnoxious and are constantly all over other dogs and jumping on people. It drives me nuts!! I'd rather have a dog, not just a pet. It's sad that shes missing out on that kind of relationship and obviously these dogs have no direction or mental stimulation. What would you rather have?


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## King&Skylar (Jun 3, 2010)

Skylar would HATE being "just a dog", left to do what she wants to do... She needs to work for me, her happiest time is training with me and the reward is me loving her and giving her praise, she started out with treat and play rewards, but if you do it right they won't become dependant on that.
Skylar focuses on me because she _wants _to, not because i made her or because she's a "robot dog"

And 2 commands sounds crazy to me... how the heck do you walk them?


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Certain breeds of dogs where created and designed to respond and have a strong work eithic for their handler. That doesnt make it a robot. If you want a dog that doesnt want to please its owner in a training or work situation, maybe get a breed like an Afghan or Great Pyrenees.


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