# Puppy attacked at dog park



## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

Same story we've all heard a million times which is exactly why I never go, unless I see that it's empty. Well last night I was there with my 5 month old puppy and some guy came into the dog park shut the gate behind him and literally just dropped the leashes of two dogs that he owned, without any warning! How can people be SO stupid?!? So he had a yellow lab come up who seemed friendly, and then his other dog came up (a rott) and literally went straight for my dog and attacked him. We broke it up and my dog was terrified, tail tucked and obviously shaken from the experience. I immediately took him to the vet and they found that he had a puncture wound on the inside of his back right leg near his groan, and some bruising around the area as well. Vet said he got lucky and he didn't have to get any stitches or anything, so it turned out to not be as bad as it could've been, I guess. But I was and still am SO upset!! If you own a rott, how can you be that irresponsible with it! Stupid effing owner! I did at least get his info, and he will be paying for his $300 vet bill. 

I wanted to see if anyone could give me advice on how to deal with my puppy now, and how I can make this as least traumatic as possible for him going forward. I have been taking him to puppy training where he does get to socialize and will be continuing with it going forward, but if anyone has any recommendations I would really appreciate it. My dog was really lethargic and noticeably in a mood last night after it. I was trying to be sweet to him but also not trying to make a big deal out of it, thinking if I didn't make it a big deal then he might not think it was a big deal but that's just my own logic.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Keep him at a distance from other dogs for a little while, pretend like nothing happened. Try to just let it fade away.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Sorry that happened...glad he is okay. 

When my pup was around 6 months we were walking around the lake. It's a common path many people take. There was a lady in front of me walking her pit and talking on the phone. She was probably 100 ft and walking slow. When we had closed in on distance, and were about 30 ft I moved to the left to pass. Her dog turned around, broke free and attacked my puppy. I got him away by kicking at it. He came back on three times before this lady got to pull him off. My pup was terrified. No injuries though. She was using a gentle leader as a muzzle so he wouldn't bite she said...really???

To hel get over it, I used lots of praise, treats, and tug rewards. He's very stable and has a great temperament so it only took one more greeting with a dog to get over it. We train on the OUTSIDE of the dogpark...never going in, even when empty just because situations like your's could happen.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I am so sorry this happened to your pup. I had a similar experience, except my pup wasn't physically injured. I was walking my 4 month old GSD pup and my 2 year old beagle mix. They were leashed. A guy on the school grounds was playing ball with his very large OFF leash yellow lab. The owner had no control over his dog. The dog came running straight at my two much smaller dogs. He knocked them both over. The idiot stood there doing nothing, but calling his dog. Finally my husband grabbed the lab by the collar and told the dude to get his dog on a leash.

I was furious. My dogs were traumatized. They bounced back quickly. I think what helped the most, was continuing our walk like nothing was wrong. We passed other dogs on the way, had our dogs ignore, focus on us, and kept walking. When we got back to my house, there were two large dogs coming up the street. I knew the dogs and they are very friendly to my dogs.

My two had a nice meet and greet with their old friends, so the walk ended on a positive note. If you have an opportunity to go for a walk with a friend who has a stable dog, that would be great. Make sure you know the other dogs well and give your pup as many positive experiences as possible.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

that sucks. next time your dog gets a puncture wound just keep an eye on it and some vetericyn‎.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My older golden was attacked by a full grown Rott when he was about 4 months. My pups head was in the Rotts mouth, it took forever for the Rott to let go. It costed a couple thousand dollars

To be fair it is a dog park, the guy didn't really have to give you warning or ask permission to let his dog off leash. This is why it's so important for us to watch and protect our dogs. 

For mine I just continued taking him to training, never went back to the dog park until very recently(for him to swim only). I did not act like anything was wrong and we kept moving forward.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

Stevenzach, it really is crazy how stupid people can be with there dogs. After a night like last night, I feel like people should have to pass a written test to own a dog, specially a big dog. Just like getting a drivers license. Nothing against big dogs, but there are too many irresponsible owners and I'm still steaming from last night.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

llombardo, I get that it's a dog park and that he doesn't have to warn me but if you own a rott, common sense should tell you to be cautious around a dog that it has never met before. There was no watching, or anymore protecting that I could've done.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

First I am very sorry this happened. No fun and lots of stress.

It occurs to me that dog parks are probably good for one thing, more business for the vets (though I'm sure most would rather dogs not get hurt...it does add to their business).

You said you've heard this a million times, so you know this sort of thing is prone to happen in off leash areas of dog parks. For this reason it's always "enter at your own risk" for you and your dog. Too many variables, with the other dogs and owners you don't know and can't control. 

I'm glad the rottie owner has agreed to pay and agree with others, help your puppy get over it by living in the moment, moving on and staying away from dog parks.



dhaney81 said:


> llombardo, I get that it's a dog park and that he doesn't have to warn me but if you own a rott, common sense should tell you to be cautious around a dog that it has never met before. There was no watching, or anymore protecting that I could've done.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

dhaney81 said:


> llombardo, I get that it's a dog park and that he doesn't have to warn me but if you own a rott, common sense should tell you to be cautious around a dog that it has never met before. There was no watching, or anymore protecting that I could've done.


doen't the dog park have a puppy section?


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

No, this one doesn't


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

dhaney81 said:


> llombardo, I get that it's a dog park and that he doesn't have to warn me but if you own a rott, common sense should tell you to be cautious around a dog that it has never met before. There was no watching, or anymore protecting that I could've done.


I agree, but our dogs are our responsibility. Dog parks are at our risk. Just because it's a Rott didn't mean a thing. The dog might not have ever had an issue before. We have to be careful about putting profiles on dogs because of the breed, because we have a breed that others think the same way about. 

It's done and over with, thankfully your pup is ok. The answer is to move forward and don't go back to the dog park. You can't control other owners or dogs.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

You need to create positive experiences with other dogs... If your dog never has contact with other dogs again, and that was his last experience of other dogs, he could become dog aggressive... It has certainly had some influence on him.. Best way is to socialise in little groups you trust.. And try avoid strange dogs..


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I agree, but our dogs are our responsibility. Dog parks are at our risk. Just because it's a Rott didn't mean a thing. The dog might not have ever had an issue before. We have to be careful about putting profiles on dogs because of the breed, because we have a breed that others think the same way about.
> 
> It's done and over with, thankfully your pup is ok. The answer is to move forward and don't go back to the dog park. You can't control other owners or dogs.


Powerful dogs. German Shephard's included need to be watched more carefully I believe...

Just my opinion...

I also get annoyed with little dogs and their owner allowing them to harass and nip at any dog... It substantially adds to the problem..

However there is a bigger responsibility with taking a dog with great power to a dog park.

Dogs simply aren't created equal. We cant pretend a lab, GSD, Rot, Pitbull and maltese are the same.

So yes.. The fact that it was a Rott does mean something...

you can get away with letting loose a little maltese early and carelessly... (Not ideal or good behaviour, but there is little chance of catastrophic injury)....
You cant get away with enetering a dog park, and just letting a riled up rott/GSD do what it likes...

If I ever go to the dog park, I try work my GSD's on leash, and bring them in slow every time... If I feel they are too excited to get into play.. I dont let them until they pay attention to me, sit down and relax.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

I agree that we shouldn't put profiles on a breed of dogs, but understanding that you own a dog that can do serious damage to another dog or even another person is a whole different thing. Walking into a dog park with a rott/pitt/gsd/doberman or any breed in that category, and just dropping the leash with no care for any other dogs in the dog parks, is the absolutely crazy and stupid. Idiots like that guy are exactly why those dogs get negatively profiled the way they are. Not the dogs fault at all either, it's 100% his fault. 

You're right though, I do need to move forward and stay away going forward, or leave as soon as someone else comes.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

dhaney81 said:


> llombardo, I get that it's a dog park and that he doesn't have to warn me but if you own a rott, common sense should tell you to be cautious around a dog that it has never met before. There was no watching, or anymore protecting that I could've done.


I am sorry this happened. I know you will take care that this doesn't happen again. And for getting over it, I would work on lots of positive experiences with other dogs NOW.

Regarding the quote: So this applies to Rotties and not the rest of us???? As GSD folks often complain about labels applied to GSDs I have to object to the way this was worded.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

middleofnowhere said:


> Regarding the quote: So this applies to Rotties and not the rest of us???? As GSD folks often complain about labels applied to GSDs I have to object to the way this was worded.


I have had more than one person who has been in the IPO sport, including a very high level trainer, for many years say to me

"Watch that dog. It's a male Rottweiler."

So, given the characteristics of some breeds, there sometimes is reason to word something in such a way.

Is this one of them? Maybe. Maybe not. But there sometimes is a reason to give a warning that singles out a breed.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

Middle, you're right. I added to that quote talking about rotts, pitts, gsd/s, doberman's in a post after that one. Big dogs get a bad rap because of irresponsible owners.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

dhaney81 said:


> Middle, you're right. I added to that quote talking about rotts, pitts, gsd/s, doberman's in a post after that one. Big dogs get a bad rap because of irresponsible owners.


And irresponsible dog owners flock to dog parks. 

In reality all dog sneed to be watched in that setting. It can be a free for all.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm sorry your puppy got attacked and am glad he wasn't seriously hurt. I agree with moving forward like nothing happened. Give him positive experiences around other dogs in a controlled setting like obedience or agility classes. 

I avoid dog parks and the like, especially with a powerful dog like a GSD. Anything could happen there, and people can be just as aggressive and out of control there as the dogs. This happened not too far away from me 

Man shoots woman's pit bull at Pasadena-area dog park


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I agree with the others. It sucks when it happens to a puppy, but the more neutral or positive experiences he's had and will have around other dogs, the less likely this will have any lasting affects on him. You remaining calm and matter of fact, or even happy and upbeat, can go a long way towards diffusing anxiety on his part. 

I had a scary experience happen at our last flyball practice two weeks ago. Our club practices at a humane society, and volunteers are always walking shelter dogs around the edge of the field and to several fenced areas at the side and back of the field to play ball. 

We were doing full runs with one dog in each lane, and I was down on one knee, holding onto Halo getting ready to send her, when out of nowhere a pitbull comes up from behind and is suddenly in my face. I'm trying to grab the dog's harness to fend it off and keep it away from Halo. It was dodging away from me, focused totally on Halo, who was snarking right back at it. I assumed it had somehow gotten off leash, but apparently it had been in the fenced dog park at the back of the field, and the latch failed and the dog escaped. 

By the time the volunteer got to us, the dog had circled around and latched onto Halo's shoulder. It was pulling and shaking it's head, she was screaming and trying to bite it, and I just hung on, holding her head away so things wouldn't escalate. Fortunately, my teammate in the other lane is a former vet tech with a lot of dogs of her own who is not afraid to break up a dog fight. She got ahold of the dog and was able to pull it away, get it back on leash, and help the volunteer get it into the building, while another teammate ran over and checked Halo for wounds.

Amazingly, we couldn't find anything. I expected blood and puncture wounds, if not ripped skin, but apparently her dense coat protected her from injury. People from the shelter came out to see what happened and if she was okay. Turns out this dog had just been released to the shelter the day before, and hadn't even been evaluated yet. I continued to hold Halo during all this, and then I finally let go and had her do some stuff for treats. I didn't want to just put her away in the crate after this, so we went ahead and finished the exercise, doing another 3 or 4 runs. Halo seemed totally fine, playing flyball with her usual enthusiasm. 

Our team captain wanted me to update her the next day, so I sent her a text that I didn't see any limping, or note any tenderness or swelling. She commented that she was "really impressed at how quickly she bounced back mentally". My teammate who got the dog off told me at the time that I did exactly the right thing by staying calm. I admit to not feeling AT ALL calm at the time, although I didn't panic either, and we continued practice as if nothing had ever happened rather than freaking out about it.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Depends on the dog park. A lot of them have a small dog section which is by weight, under 20 pounds or so. Little puppies can then go to the small dog section.

Some dog parks have one area for all dogs, regardless of age or size.

I've not seen all the dog parks in my area but the ones I have seen mostly flat partial dirt/grass combo fenced with 8 foot chain link. They are under a 1/2 acre usually as well. 

There is a dog park not too far from me where you can 'rent' an area for X amount of time and no one else can enter with their dogs during the time you have reserved it.

That's a good idea IMO. Great for training off leash under distraction and letting those who don't have large yards to exercise their dogs let 'em run.




huntergreen said:


> doen't the dog park have a puppy section?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Dang! Discharging a weapon, 3 rounds, in a park full of people, including kids, and the guy isn't charged? "It's my right" he says? Really his right to shoot a puppy that all witnesses say wasn't being aggressive and endangering those around him?

wow crazy and wrong on a lot of levels. 

I can see that happening around here too, I see as many people fights as I do dog fights at one of the parks I used for training (outside the fence, just to train OB under distraction).




osito23 said:


> I'm sorry your puppy got attacked and am glad he wasn't seriously hurt. I agree with moving forward like nothing happened. Give him positive experiences around other dogs in a controlled setting like obedience or agility classes.
> 
> I avoid dog parks and the like, especially with a powerful dog like a GSD. Anything could happen there, and people can be just as aggressive and out of control there as the dogs. This happened not too far away from me
> 
> Man shoots woman's pit bull at Pasadena-area dog park


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Lykoz said:


> Powerful dogs. German Shephard's included need to be watched more carefully I believe...
> 
> Just my opinion...
> 
> ...


just my observation, a dog on a leash inside a dog park causes more problems than it prevents. once the leash is off, all goes back to dog fun.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Lykoz said:


> Powerful dogs. German Shephard's included need to be watched more carefully I believe...
> 
> Just my opinion...
> 
> ...


i am going to disagree. all dogs need to be watched. regardless of the breed, big or small. it is up to the owner to make sure his/her dog is suitable for a dog park.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Depends on the dog park. A lot of them have a small dog section which is by weight, under 20 pounds or so. Little puppies can then go to the small dog section.
> 
> Some dog parks have one area for all dogs, regardless of age or size.
> 
> ...


1/2 acre? thats not a dog park. for fun, google wanatage nj dog park. the one closer to me is only 5 and 1/2 acres.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> just my observation, a dog on a leash inside a dog park causes more problems than it prevents. once the leash is off, all goes back to dog fun.


I would say you are correct in scope. Dogs are often more defensive. Act differently when on leash.. Sometimes more protective of owner.

But that would be a misrepresentation of what I am achieving. And it is dependent on the dog park. A dog that is on my leash, I have more control of. I can correct my dogs behaviour, and avoid some dogs altogether.

Furthermore I would walk outside the dog park, and not introduce a over stimulated dog to new dogs.

If the dog park is large, I can walk in a completely different section of the park.

Suffice to say what state your dog is in.. And what state other dogs are in will influence what happens substantially. 

Most owners have no control of their dog's at a dog park.. A leash is a form of control.

The best most logical point is that in most cases.. Dog parks are just a bad idea altogether.



huntergreen said:


> i am going to disagree. all dogs need to be watched. regardless of the breed, big or small. it is up to the owner to make sure his/her dog is suitable for a dog park.


Obviously all dogs need to be watched... That is an obvious statement.

Agreed.

But the same way you cant be negligent and take a dog-aggressive dog to a dog park..

Breeds are DEFINED.. or Bread according to certain Characteristics.
We chose our dogs BASED on those characteristics.

We always quote the GOOD characteristics of a dog... We can say we like GSD's for such and such a reason, because of the SHARED characteristics, or what the breed represents...

But for every good there is also bad.. Or a risk profile...

Some people might not understand why somebody would pick a small non-working style dog with very few characteristics, other than just be a pet..

The reason people pick such dogs has a lot to do with Risk Profiling.... 
I dont care how aggressive a little toy dog is... It is not really a danger to a GSD or Rotweiller.... 

People need to understand that a Rotweiller is a higher risk dog than 90% of all breeds. 

In fact on a strictly actuarial basis... When talking about human attacks... A Rotweiller is 4 times more likely than a GSD to do serious bodily harm, or kill...

A pitbull would have an even higher risk profile than a rotweiller...

A labrador's risk profile is significantly less than a GSD's..

We are talking statistcs people... Numbers... Facts... Not hearsay opinions on temperament... Nobody can disagree with stats and facts.. I dont care what your opinion is.

So yes I can judge dogs by breed... 

I can also say that a powerfull dog can kill a small breed very quickly if something goes wrong...

So yes you need to be more visible and alert... If the little dog misbehaves and bites my dog.. Well thats unnacepptable... But its happened... And nothing came of it..
But god forbid my dog unleashes on the little criter... I will have huge bills to pay... Possibly a dead dog... And more issues with regards to my dog's livelihood...

Its a completely different level in reaction times... Visibiity and readiness to engage, and prevent bad situations from happening. 

I love all breeds... But I also respect the direction each is bread for.

To anyone who has an issue with dogs types having specific characteristics... Should not own pure-bred dogs... The whole point of selective breeding, is to create predictable traits.

If you are not familiar with the attached risk/profile traits of your breed... Then you are careless.

Part of it is training.. Part of it is your dogs individuality...
But you must also understand any dog can get picked on... Any dog can be attacked... Any dog can attack...

What have you done to mitigate these things? And if it does happen, how are you going to deal with it?


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> 1/2 acre? thats not a dog park. for fun, google wanatage nj dog park. the one closer to me is only 5 and 1/2 acres.


Please show me the std. dimensions all dog parks have to adhere to?

Every single dog park is different across the world...

Dont make generalised statements.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

Lykoz, how would you recommend I handle walking passed a dog with my dog, or if we see one from 20-30 ft away and he tries to pull me the opposite direction? 

My dog prior to this was pretty good and curious to meet other dogs if we were close up, but if we were 20-30 ft and he sometimes would try to run. So he clearly already had some dog issues. Exactly why I'm in puppy classes


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

dhaney81 said:


> Lykos, how would you recommend I handle walking passed a dog with my dog, or if we see one from 20-30 ft away and he tries to pull me the opposite direction?
> 
> My dog prior to this was pretty good and curious to meet other dogs if we were close up, but if we were 20-30 ft and he sometimes would try to run. So he clearly already had some dog issues. Exactly why I'm in puppy classes



I am not a professional trainer. So I just want to clear that up. I don't like giving training advice on this forum anymore because there are more qualified people that can do that here, and they are very hypocritical if I say something they believe to be incorrect. I will give you my thoughts, and thats all they are. If somebody has better advice, that is great. 
You can post a better answer. No need to break this one down. I am not stating it is the right way.

You can get more professional advice on dog socialisation strategies from accomplished trainers. My approach is a reward-based system. And I follow advice strictly from people who have a similar philosophy to that. Trainers often disagree about everything... So you need to research the different training styles and come to a conclusion on your fit. I think All-positive trainers are naive and unrealistic. I think people who train pets without some sort of reward based system, is not an ideal fit for pet dogs. That is my personal opinion.

There is a lot involved with what you want to achieve in socialising your dog.
Some trainers like Michael Ellis and Mark Keating talk about getting engagement on your dog with you first.. And then keeping that engagement under distraction of other dogs... I.e. Make it that your dog is more interested in you, than the play of other dogs.. You can close the distance as the dog is not being distracted so much by other dogs.. Initially you would avoid other dogs to train altogether... And replicate your training closer to other dogs, as the dog becomes more comfortable with focusing on you. I have links to what I believe is some good current affordable courses online. If you would like the links, PM me.

Another approach would be just to let the dogs have fun and reinforce each other with play... If you take the second approach, your dogs may have a great time with other dogs. But don't expect to easily un-train them to not be distracted by other dogs.. I have this problem myself, due to often frequenting dog parks in the past daily.

What I can say from personal experience on two different GSD's who were bit at a young age:

One puppy was bit a long time ago when I was at a schutzhund training club... I was in the puppy socialisation and basic obedience classes... My Puppy was too playfull and slightly older dog bit it.. I pulled that dog out of those classes.. Partly because I was naive and stupid, partly because I didn't want it to happen again and in part because that club gave up on my dog immediately when he was not willing to chase or exhibit much drive for further training... Suffice to say that dog was not really socialised with foreign dogs again.
Anyways.. I had 3 dogs at the time.. And although that specific dog was gentle caring and protective around my own dogs... God forbid it came within range of any other dog... It was extremely dog aggressive with other dogs. I believe the experience remained in him, and I didnt show him that other dogs can be good too.. In its older years I finally managed to control his dog aggression better.. I could take him for walks and heel by my side without a leash (tested it) However generally I kept leash for safety reasons to avoid volatile situations. Suffice to say that dog would listen to everything I said immediately.. I had much less experience in training too.

A second GSD of mine got bit when it was still a puppy by an aggressive labrador at a dog park.. I carried on taking that dog to the dog-park.. And he is actually very good with all most other dogs... I can trust him at a dog park.. My previous GSD I would never even dream of it... However I am still not able to have that dog obey me off leash and keep a heel consistently with other dogs playing around... He might be enticed to do it in play when I have a toy... But simply put, it is not consistent. His play behaviour has been re-inforced strongly.. So I am trying to keep away from dog parks, and build up the commands again with less distractions.

So basically if you dog-park visist's or puppy-class visits are just letting the puppies play with each other... You will have a harder time training them.. They like the play more than what you have to offer... So they will always, in my opinion be distracted by other dogs.. If however you are their favourite thing, and you maintain that relationship with the dog, as the distractions become more and more, you will likely have a better communication with your dog.

I think (today) that socialisation has to be in a manageable environment...
The dog has to be comfortable engaging with you, whilst other dogs are around. 

It took me a long time to accept the fact that dog parks are a bad idea. I still go sometimes for my selfish reasons (I like watching my dogs interact). But I am in a high awareness mode, avoiding situations before they happen as best I can.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

Really appreciate all the advice Lykoz! I understand people on here can be critical sometimes but I also feel like I can tell who on here knows there stuff and who doesn't. You may not be a trainer, but I can tell you have a lot of knowledge.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

dhaney81 said:


> Really appreciate all the advice Lykoz! I understand people on here can be critical sometimes but I also feel like I can tell who on here knows there stuff and who doesn't. You may not be a trainer, but I can tell you have a lot of knowledge.


Thanks for the kind words.

Here is a video by Michael Ellis speaking about introducing puppies to new environments/distractions, eg. dogs/people etc.

In short you need to have a goal, or a reason in socialisation. People think they are doing good by their dog and 'socialising' it just because it interacts with other dogs and people. This is not necessarily the case. Controlling the environment as best you can is important.






If you google around on Michael Ellis material, you will see how great a trainer he is. Many people regard him as one of the best in the industry.

Edit: Active link incase video does not work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EORq7MOOioA&feature=player_embedded


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Lykoz said:


> Please show me the std. dimensions all dog parks have to adhere to?
> 
> Every single dog park is different across the world...
> 
> Dont make generalised statements.


that statement was directed to gwen. 

who is this newb telling me what i can and cant post?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

huntergreen said:


> that statement was directed to gwen.
> 
> who is this newb telling me what i can and cant post?


Tsk tsk lolol

Most here know I really hate dog parks. They do indeed keep trainers and vets busy. I won't risk my dogs well being...period.

1. Once you enter most dog parks they are use at your own risk.

2. People don't come in with their dogs and warn you that they are about to take leashes off....it's a dog park, breed makes no difference. 

3. Your doing what so many of us here try to avoid being done to us, labeling a specific breed as aggressive. 

4. If having your dog play with others dogs is important to you, find someone who has a very stable dog and arrange play dates with just that dog. I really don't feel dogs NEED or MUST play with other dogs to be happy. I play with my dog and I am what he lives to be with, not other dogs.

5. A stable dog will recover from this situation without lasting effects. Forgive me if I missed it in your posts but has your dog shown a change in how he/she reacts to other dogs since this incident?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

dhaney81 said:


> Really appreciate all the advice Lykoz! I understand people on here can be critical sometimes but I also feel like I can tell who on here knows there stuff and who doesn't. You may not be a trainer, but I can tell you have a lot of knowledge.


Personally, I'd like to see more real world proof of knowledge and ability rather than just watching of YouTube videos and retelling of information that is already widely available without any proof or back up that the methods were used and to what extent they were used and what outcomes were achieved.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Personally, I'd like to see more real world proof of knowledge and ability rather than just watching of YouTube videos and retelling of information that is already widely available without any proof or back up that the methods were used and to what extent they were used and what outcomes were achieved.


I am sorry you feel that way.

I found the video, and posted it after. I knew Ellis had work on this.
My comment below that is extensive and based on personal experience over large time frames. You can read it if you like.

Thank you for the critique. I will keep it in mind.

I also would love to hear your approach, in answering the dhaney81 direct question to me.

Maybe you have a much better approach. As I clearly stated. I am not a professional trainer. That is my opinion, and that is how i try engage and work my dogs today.
Maybe highly qualified and successful professional dog trainers of substance can come and help her on a free forum? I know Michael Ellis would charge an arm and a leg for his personal time to answer her specifically on the subject of dog training pertinent to her problem. I also dont believe he would engage on a free forum like this.

I also cited published work (more affordable) of some very good trainers to head her in the right direction, to expand on what I said.

Have a good day.
I tried to answer a question, specifically adressed to me as best I could.
Sorry If I did not meet your standards.

To dhaney81..
See what I am talking about with regards to giving dog training advice? Even as simple as it was...


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Personally, I'd like to see more real world proof of knowledge and ability rather than just watching of YouTube videos and retelling of information that is already widely available without any proof or back up that the methods were used and to what extent they were used and what outcomes were achieved.


i read a few books, seen some videos, but i still use a pro trainer.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> i read a few books, seen some videos, but i still use a pro trainer.


That is great. I am sure you have found a great trainer and are doing great work.

I have used pro-trainers before.
Some places don't have access to the level of training that is satisfactory. I have been unimpressed by many people I paid to work with me in the past.

I see this as a personal hobby. And I like building my knowledge and applying on my own dogs.

World class trainers cost a substantial sum from your bank account, and are equally scarce to find.

The dog training world is unregulated. Anyone can enter and be a 'professional'.

So selecting a profesional trainer without prior knowledge on dog training, is a mistake in my book.

Sure they could guide you a bit... But they could equally send you completely on the wrong track.

If you found somebody really good thats great...
But for every 10 pro-trainers... only 1 will likely be really good...
Again, my personal opinion.

I know Micheal Ellis is good. Simple as that.
I think I can think critically enough that with the right information at my disposal I can get better each day and apply it.

Dog training is about personal development in my opinion. Dogs just feed off the experience you have amassed in communicating with them.

I dont believe in somebody else doing all the work for me.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Lykoz said:


> That is great. I am sure you have found a great trainer and are doing great work.
> 
> I have used pro-trainers before.
> Some places don't have access to the level of training that is satisfactory. I have been unimpressed by many people I paid to work with me in the past.
> ...


well for me it was past tense, and mostly for solid obedience. you are correct, choose your trainer wisely.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, I doubt I can 'prove' anything.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I just would like to know what people have done, what they've trained in, what their experience is beyond teaching a dog to sit. Don't necessarily have to have titles or awards but they help to prove that at least you practice what you preach and have a reasonable skill in dog training.

Many of us have at least said we train our dogs in x, y, z or have done certain more advanced things with out dogs. It's just interesting when you have members that want to spread training advice without saying how they've been successful in training a dog themselves.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I just would like to know what people have done, what they've trained in, what their experience is beyond teaching a dog to sit. Don't necessarily have to have titles or awards but they help to prove that at least you practice what you preach and have a reasonable skill in dog training.
> 
> Many of us have at least said we train our dogs in x, y, z or have done certain more advanced things with out dogs. It's just interesting when you have members that want to spread training advice without saying how they've been successful in training a dog themselves.


Did you not read this?



dhaney81 said:


> Lykoz, how would you recommend I handle walking passed a dog with my dog, or if we see one from 20-30 ft away and he tries to pull me the opposite direction?
> 
> My dog prior to this was pretty good and curious to meet other dogs if we were close up, but if we were 20-30 ft and he sometimes would try to run. So he clearly already had some dog issues. Exactly why I'm in puppy classes


Or this?



Lykoz said:


> I am not a professional trainer. So I just want to clear that up. I don't like giving training advice on this forum anymore because there are more qualified people that can do that here, and they are very hypocritical if I say something they believe to be incorrect. I will give you my thoughts, and thats all they are. If somebody has better advice, that is great.
> You can post a better answer. No need to break this one down. I am not stating it is the right way.


I said I was not a professional and that it was my opinion..
I did not say my way was better...
I did not plagiarise anything... I cited many sources of my information..
I cited my personal experience..
What more do you want?

If you want to add something... Please answer her question. And stop trolling me. 

She asked for my take on it... And I gave it..
Please by all means... Give her a better answer...

So far nobody else has tried to answer that question. If I gave incorrect advice... Post some better advice... I think that advice is very good.. Maybe I am wrong?

I dont train my dogs in "anything"... I have no desire to get a paper right now to certify something...
I train my dogs for play for fun... I train my dogs because I enjoy it. I train my dogs because its a beautiful thing having a relationship and communication with your dog. I train them because I like them engaging in various aspects of my life.

I dont appreciate you nitpicking posts for some agenda you have against me. Read my posts in context and in full from start of thread... Maybe I should put a disclaimer for you in my sig?.. (I wont so dont ask)
Thank you.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I just would like to know what people have done, what they've trained in, what their experience is beyond teaching a dog to sit. Don't necessarily have to have titles or awards but they help to prove that at least you practice what you preach and have a reasonable skill in dog training.
> 
> Many of us have at least said we train our dogs in x, y, z or have done certain more advanced things with out dogs. It's just interesting when you have members that want to spread training advice without saying how they've been successful in training a dog themselves.


for myself, my gsds were pets. with kyra, i was in over my head. included with the purchase of the pup, came basic obedience and shutzhund training as most of this breeders dogs went to police forces. kyra thrived on the training. when the breeder stopped breeding, i kept up obedience and tracking as a hobby, never competed. that being said, imho, it gives me a good background to practice training between training sessions with a pro trainer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

huntergreen said:


> 1/2 acre? thats not a dog park. for fun, google wanatage nj dog park. the one closer to me is only 5 and 1/2 acres.


5 1/2 acres? That's not a dog park. bahahahaha

This is


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

very nice jax, is that a funny looking oversized gsd i keep hearing about?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

King Sheppard. You like?


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

actually, it is a nice picture.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Wow, that dog is a horse....


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

In regards to the one members question on how to train their dog from pulling away from other dogs...there isn't nearly enough information to give any kind of real advice. The age of the dog isn't known, the way the dog reacts isn't known, and so there is no way to figure out WHY the dog is doing what its doing.

This is exactly the problem with online videos and forum dog training professionals. They don't realize that 99% of the time, the person asking the question, can't read their dog and doesn't realize why the dog is reacting the way it is. They've probably read an article or two, maybe seen a video, and now think that their dog is doing exactly what is described in the video or the article. So now, when they ask for advice, they're telling you what THEY believe is the issue, and like I said, what they think is probably not the case and they're just making their dog fit whatever the most recent video they watched.

It's super interesting how some people blindly follow a single trainer, one that they've never met, one that they've seen videos of but not really ever discussed any kind of in depth training philosophy with. I guess to me, that just doesn't make sense. I like to meet people, know what exactly it is they're looking for, why they're doing what they're doing, and what they see out of various dogs that makes them do one thing or another. But hey, to each their own, some people like to gain practical knowledge and experience, other's think that reading books and watching videos will get them to the same place. Unfortunately, I don't think any high level competitor, professional dog trainer, TV dog trainer, or anyone else who's name is easily recognized as a force in dog training, got there by reading books and watching videos.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes and some even smaller. 

I've seen the pics of some of the off leash dog parks others have access to here on the site. They look more like nature preserves! 




huntergreen said:


> 1/2 acre? thats not a dog park. for fun, google wanatage nj dog park. the one closer to me is only 5 and 1/2 acres.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> King Sheppard. You like?




Lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I learned about Micheal Ellis after working IRL  with two trainers (IPO) who follow his methodology. I was loaned a Leerburg video by one of them of Micheal Ellis. Watching it helped me understand my timing issues better.

Now I'm a ME fan...I must admit, because his methodology worked for me and my dogs.  

Last year I was working on IPO tracking with my trainer and Ilda. Hope to get back into it soon. I don't know if I can get a BH with her but I'd like to try. 






martemchik said:


> <snipped>
> 
> It's super interesting how some people blindly follow a single trainer, one that they've never met, one that they've seen videos of but not really ever discussed any kind of in depth training philosophy with. I guess to me, that just doesn't make sense. I like to meet people, know what exactly it is they're looking for, why they're doing what they're doing, and what they see out of various dogs that makes them do one thing or another. But hey, to each their own, some people like to gain practical knowledge and experience, other's think that reading books and watching videos will get them to the same place. Unfortunately, I don't think any high level competitor, professional dog trainer, TV dog trainer, or anyone else who's name is easily recognized as a force in dog training, got there by reading books and watching videos.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yes and some even smaller.
> 
> I've seen the pics of some of the off leash dog parks others have access to here on the site. They look more like nature preserves!


i am am pretty lucky with the 2 parks available to me. they have a donation box but their is no charge. the wantage park drilled a well so there is always fresh water. that and the trails we have for hiking makes this area a dog heaven. before the DP were available, we used to use the the top area of the ski slope. maybe the size of the DP has to do with incidents of dog aggresion and peoples poor opinion of them.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

dhaney81 said:


> llombardo, I get that it's a dog park and that he doesn't have to warn me but if you own a rott, common sense should tell you to be cautious around a dog that it has never met before. There was no watching, or anymore protecting that I could've done.


Yeh, really unfortunate. I have had my own bad experience at a dog park when Cruz was about 5 months. Nothing serious, just intimidating for him. But, that's the bad thing about dog parks, they don't have to let you know when they cut their dogs loose, it's also usually policed by the patrons who use the park, who really have no authority. One of the biggest problems at ours was people with small dogs coming into the big dog side of the enclosure. Of course with retractable leashes! Big no no. Too many dogs running full speed and it just makes the perfect situation for something bad to happen. Then there is the absentee owners who cut their dog loose, then go join a group of other humans ignoring their dogs. Not to mention the people who know their dog is aggressive and still coming into the park only for it to end the same way every time, usually bad. No, I go still. I get there and observe who is in at the time and how many. Too many dogs or I see a group of people just standing and talking not watching their dogs, we don't go in. Cruz is hyperactive when he's around other dogs. Not a mean stitch in his body but he is rough. But he is still intimidated when another dog gets all over him and I'm afraid one day he may take things into his own hands and go back at the other dog. I think it's a long lasting effect on him from the bad run in we had way back. That's why I try to pick the times we go in and when we don't. I seldom go anymore. We have more fun playing at the middle school football field. No worries about aggressive dogs or health concerns.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I think that is a good point and is a big part of the problem Steve.

The small dirt lot type DPs are nothing but cauldrons of stress.

If you are in one that is crowded you have to be so very, very watchful to protect your dog.

If dogs aren't misbehaving the people crowded in there are. See the article posted earlier where a man shot a puppy in the park? Tempers flare, arguments break out. I am not exaggerating when I say I've witnessed numerous screaming, yelling arguments at one of the busier parks.

It's not a peaceful, natural setting. 





huntergreen said:


> i am am pretty lucky with the 2 parks available to me. they have a donation box but their is no charge. the wantage park drilled a well so there is always fresh water. that and the trails we have for hiking makes this area a dog heaven. before the DP were available, we used to use the the top area of the ski slope. maybe the size of the DP has to do with incidents of dog aggresion and peoples poor opinion of them.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

martemchik said:


> In regards to the one members question on how to train their dog from pulling away from other dogs...there isn't nearly enough information to give any kind of real advice. The age of the dog isn't known, the way the dog reacts isn't known, and so there is no way to figure out WHY the dog is doing what its doing.
> 
> This is exactly the problem with online videos and forum dog training professionals. They don't realize that 99% of the time, the person asking the question, can't read their dog and doesn't realize why the dog is reacting the way it is. They've probably read an article or two, maybe seen a video, and now think that their dog is doing exactly what is described in the video or the article. So now, when they ask for advice, they're telling you what THEY believe is the issue, and like I said, what they think is probably not the case and they're just making their dog fit whatever the most recent video they watched.
> 
> It's super interesting how some people blindly follow a single trainer, one that they've never met, one that they've seen videos of but not really ever discussed any kind of in depth training philosophy with. I guess to me, that just doesn't make sense. I like to meet people, know what exactly it is they're looking for, why they're doing what they're doing, and what they see out of various dogs that makes them do one thing or another. But hey, to each their own, some people like to gain practical knowledge and experience, other's think that reading books and watching videos will get them to the same place. Unfortunately, I don't think any high level competitor, professional dog trainer, TV dog trainer, or anyone else who's name is easily recognized as a force in dog training, got there by reading books and watching videos.


It's a puppy... A clean slate... Reacting how any puppy would who has been socialised in puppy classes and dog-parks.. And is distracted by environment...
I have had 8 dogs in my life... They all react like this to new stimulus.

It is pretty textbook behaviour.... 

Puppy is interested in his surroundings more than the owner...
You build engagement.

You are right I have not had correspondence with Michael Ellis directly...
But dont assume I have not had correspondence with trainers I so "blindly follow".

I am a member on Leerburg's Online University.

I have had correspondence with Ed Frawley directly and other professional answering my questions.

They engage, users and actually help them with their problems.

Also I have been to dog classes before... Considering I have had 8 dogs altogether... I think I have been to more classes than you.

I found them to not be as beneficial as you make out, comparing to what I am doing now.

Let me ask you... How many GSD's and/or dogs for that matter have you owned?

Please tell me you are not on your first? ( A little birdie suggested this might be the case)

Being spoonfed by a trainer and doing nothing yourself to increase your knowledge breeds very bad cumulative knowledge.

I sure didnt gather my knowledge as a Physiotherapist going to classes twice a week for an hour..

I am not a professional. But she asked for help and I helped.

Drop it already.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You challenge me but then tell me to drop it?

Nice...

My puppies have never run away from other dogs. I'm sorry that all of yours have reacted to stimulus in this way, it is not how I expect my GSD puppy to react.

I don't think amount of dogs says anything about how many classes you've been to. For the first 2 years of my dog's life I took him to a training club 3 times a week to work him in obedience and agility. I titled him in AKC obedience and rally. I have now moved on to IPO training and have been going to training twice a week for the past 2 years. So I wouldn't be so sure about your claim that you've been to more "classes" than I have.

I'm sure the little birdie will also tell you that I'll never be impressed by your pet manners classes so no matter how many you've gone to, it won't mean a thing to me.

Knowledge is useless if you don't know how to apply it. You can read books about dog training until you're blue in the face, doesn't mean you can actually teach a dog anything you've read.

But you're right, the 3 trainers that I work with who have taken their dogs to the USCA nationals are probably not worth working with or listening to. Emailing random people half way across the world is the way to go.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

martemchik said:


> You challenge me but then tell me to drop it?
> 
> Nice...
> 
> ...


I knew it. 1 dog. First time pet owner. 
As far as I am concerned the trainers titled your dog, not you. 

I am sure you know everything. 

Good luck
Bye.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I count two...

Trainers titled my dogs?!? What? That's your come back? Trainers titled my dogs?!? Do you know how training/trialing works?


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I count two...
> 
> Trainers titled my dogs?!? What? That's your come back? Trainers titled my dogs?!? Do you know how training/trialing works?


Stop trolling... Learn something kid... Then start throwing hissy fits.
If you dont like what I post... Post something better.
I was asked to post so I did.. She wanted my opinion I gave it.

I did not state it was correct.. I was clear... My experience on dogs is not just the current way I chose to go about it.

I am not an expert.. I never claimed to be.

But you better be an expert when you are as hypocritical as you are...

And frankly you are not.

When the big trainers decide to answer her question I will keep quiet...

But none have attempted to... 

This is a forum... Obviously if she got 1 to 1 help and they saw the dog it would be better.

You have completely derailed this thread attacking me.
You scower looking for my posts.. And moderators are just ignoring it. I don't know why.

You got upset because she valued my opinion based on my previous posts that were contradictory to others.

People are free to justify the way they think any way they like.

People know I am not a professional... So what does it matter to you what I say? 

Again nobody else attempted to help the OP on that question...

You still have not even attempted...

And do you know why? Because you have experience with a single, probably working line dog.. And you have been spoonfed from the start how to train it...

Which means "theoretically" you handled it right from puppyhood.

How can you systematically and critically analyse something that is going wrong?

Have you even ever visited a dog park ? Ill bet not.. Because it would throw off your training...

She has a dog that has been influenced by dog parks, and puppy day-care...

You have never been there or experienced such things... So how could you possibly answer the question?

I answered something I have actual experience in.

I did no answer it as a professional. I did not answer it as a know it all...

I clearly said, that is my opinion... And cited experiences of two seperate dogs, I had a very similar issue with...

So no... You have learned nothing but to copy paste what your trainer did for you...

People like you just dont get it...

I have boxed before.. worked with some pretty good trainers.. 
But when it is all said and done... You are alone in the ring... And it does not matter how good your trainer was... Your opponent changes. 

You are right... Each dog is different... So if you have only owned one dog... where does that leave you?

The reason I chose online education is two-fold.

1) They are brilliant.. Undisputedly brilliant.
2) I dont have access to great trainers with world championship credentials in my country. I would rather learn good fundamentals than trust an iffy trainer.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

boys and their pissing matches...lol
Should we all have an attachment of our resumes in our signature to prove we are who we say and that we even own a dog?
FWIW, not many 'big trainers' post on forums. They keep their secrets to those that will pay for them.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

sure, you go first onyx! lol


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> boys and their pissing matches...lol
> Should we all have an attachment of our resumes in our signature to prove we are who we say and that we even own a dog?
> FWIW, not many 'big trainers' post on forums. They keep their secrets to those that will pay for them.


My point exactly...

I never post my experience... Because it is exactly that.. a pissing game..

And my experience is actually not substantial at all... I state that clearly.

I pride myself on having a knack for critical-thinking and discerning relatively good from terrible information. But thats where it ends... 

But I don't need a first-time dog owner critiquing everything I post.

Somebody asked for my opinion and I gave it only to be harassed from that point on.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Two dogs buddy, see. There are two of them. If you'd even tried to follow anything I've posted, you'd know I have two dogs as most people that are on this forum do know.

I'm not sure how it matters what lines they are...they're dogs. I guess I'm a worse dog trainer because I purchased dogs that I knew were capable of what I wanted to do? Tell that to all the world level competitors...I'll let you in on a secret, your idol Michael Ellis, is as successful as he is with his dogs because the dogs he buys are genetically capable of what he needs from them, he doesn't just make them that way.

Yes, I did have enough knowledge that when I got my dog, I knew I needed help. So I got help. Now I know more than enough to raise a pet. I've moved on to much more advanced training, and I haven't "updated" this forum on what it is that I do, but those that matter, know what I do. I don't post videos, or have a website to prove what it is I do because I don't need to. I spent all day today training dogs (9-4) and if you can do the math, you'd realize I wasn't just training my own dogs.

I've said my opinion on that person's situation. There's just not enough information. And when you try to fill in holes and assume certain things, you end up giving incorrect information. I don't like to do that because in general, people that come to the forum for help, don't know how to really figure out if what they have been given is being implemented correctly and if it's actually affecting their dog in a positive manner. They might see improvement the first day, but that is usually because they're actually doing something rather than nothing. It's like working out for a week, or eating healthy for a week. You see results, but those results are inflated because of the fact that you've done nothing for years before that.

I'll give you one tip for the future, don't belittle other people's achievements before you've accomplished them yourself. Like I don't ever question a dog/handler that has achieved a title higher than what I've achieved, it just doesn't seem right to question someone who has achieved more than you have. You won't make it far in the dog world if you're constantly belittling people that have clearly (in just 4 years of dog ownership) accomplished way more than you have in decades. And I'll be one of the first to tell you that I've accomplished very little.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

martemchik said:


> View attachment 272241
> 
> 
> Two dogs buddy, see. There are two of them. If you'd even tried to follow anything I've posted, you'd know I have two dogs as most people that are on this forum do know.


Ok so since you say titling is so important... Have you titled both of them?



martemchik said:


> View attachment 272241
> 
> I'm not sure how it matters what lines they are...they're dogs. I guess I'm a worse dog trainer because I purchased dogs that I knew were capable of what I wanted to do? Tell that to all the world level competitors...I'll let you in on a secret, your idol Michael Ellis, is as successful as he is with his dogs because the dogs he buys are genetically capable of what he needs from them, he doesn't just make them that way.


I know that... The OP probably does not have working line dogs... As good as the working lines are at getting Cert's etc... The considerations are not copy pasted for other dogs. Experience with working lines esp. from a Novice doing dog sports does not replicate with the pet owner, having trouble after her dog was bit and with socialisation/Engagement problems. CONTEXT... Dont forget about CONTEXT..



martemchik said:


> View attachment 272241
> 
> Yes, I did have enough knowledge that when I got my dog, I knew I needed help. So I got help. Now I know more than enough to raise a pet. I've moved on to much more advanced training, and I haven't "updated" this forum on what it is that I do, but those that matter, know what I do. I don't post videos, or have a website to prove what it is I do because I don't need to. I spent all day today training dogs (9-4) and if you can do the math, you'd realize I wasn't just training my own dogs.


Good for you.. You have a lot to learn.



martemchik said:


> View attachment 272241
> 
> I've said my opinion on that person's situation. There's just not enough information. And when you try to fill in holes and assume certain things, you end up giving incorrect information. I don't like to do that because in general, people that come to the forum for help, don't know how to really figure out if what they have been given is being implemented correctly and if it's actually affecting their dog in a positive manner. They might see improvement the first day, but that is usually because they're actually doing something rather than nothing. It's like working out for a week, or eating healthy for a week. You see results, but those results are inflated because of the fact that you've done nothing for years before that.


Its a forum... instead of attacking me.. Ask her the information you want... And she can fill you in. So you can help her... This attacking of me is scaring people from posting on the forum, incase they get attacked. I get private messages all the time. Of people asking me to say something in a post, because they are afraid to speak up, because people like you are attacking them.



martemchik said:


> View attachment 272241
> 
> I'll give you one tip for the future, don't belittle other people's achievements before you've accomplished them yourself. Like I don't ever question a dog/handler that has achieved a title higher than what I've achieved, it just doesn't seem right to question someone who has achieved more than you have. You won't make it far in the dog world if you're constantly belittling people that have clearly (in just 4 years of dog ownership) accomplished way more than you have in decades. And I'll be one of the first to tell you that I've accomplished very little.


You are absolutely right. Respect all achievements. I dont need a piece of paper or to prove anything to anyone... The little piece of paper is meaningless... Its the dog that matters and how it enriches your life..
Here is an achievement just as significant as yours.. With no title. 
And she didnt even need a working line GSD to do it!
Great little girl isnt she.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My male that I've had since 8 weeks of age is titled in various AKC venues. He'll be going for his BH in April and his IPO1 in May. My bitch I only got a year ago at 2.5 years old and she was taught some very bad habits for sport/competition. She lived with an elderly woman and was basically taught to suppress all her prey drive. A dog that for 2 months completely ignored a flirt pole (avoidance behavior like you wouldn't believe) and wouldn't dare play tug with a human for fear of correction is now doing this...









It's not that I think titles are the end all be all, but at the end of the day, a title proves that your dog can do what you claim, and on a strange field/strange environment. This is a very difficult thing to explain to someone that has never experienced it, but a trial environment in any sport is very nerve racking and not the easiest thing to get through without having a highly trained animal.

Again, your boy Michael, wouldn't be anywhere near the world renowned trainer he is, without his work in the Schutzhund world and achieving of some very high level titles. 

Your distinction between pet and working line dog is comical to me. My dogs are pets first and working dogs second. I definitely purchased my first dog as a pet, never intended to do anything with him, but ended up competing and finding a new hobby. I'm very lucky that he's capable of doing the sport and everything I ask of him.

I have a ton left to learn, but I prefer the hands on method and not the reading and YouTube watching. I much prefer to be working with the 20 or so dogs I do every Saturday than reading about how other people have taught their dogs to sit.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'd like to add...the age/number of dogs owned argument has gotten really old really fast on this forum. I've more than likely seen/trained with/and helped train more German Shepherds than 99% of the people on this form that are more than twice my age.

I used to belong to the local GSD club that had over 200 members with most people owning at least one if not two German Shepherds. I now train with a smaller group of people, but again, 20 or so dogs every weekend, a smaller group than that during the week. I've also attended various trials, regional, and even a national level event. Getting to watch those dogs work, learning/seeing how people train and figuring out what people have the issues they do (more than likely through training).

So when you want to question someone based on the fact that you've owned more dogs than them...remember, many of us train with and have experience with way more dogs than just the ones we own. No major trainer has gotten there because of their own dogs, its because of the dogs they've helped train and the people they've worked with. I'm probably one of the few members on this forum that has physically helped someone that came onto this forum with a problem dog. Yup, that's right, I didn't just type away, I told this person that I'd meet with them and if I couldn't help them, I'd find them the people that can.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

My "boy" Michael as you put it.. Is a Professional trainer.. He is judged completely differently to me.

I know what titles are for.. I dont need them in my life.. And unless you want to breed your dog, be a world champion, or a professional trainer... They should not mean anything to you either.

I have nothing to prove in the dog training world, neither do I want to.. I am in it because I enjoy it.. My suggestions are that of layman.. I have never stated otherwise. (For some reason, you cant grasp this)

I dont claim to be better than anyone.

You need to take a hard long look at yourself before you judge other people. I am only engaging you.. Because the forum moderators have let you attack me for too long.

Just get off my back..

TBH I dont want to speak to you..


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I have an issue with misinformation on this forum, you've been spewing a lot of it lately, so I felt like calling you out on it and pointing out to another member that some of the things that make you sound "respectable" are just someone being loud without much actual fact behind it. Mostly this is based off of other discussions we've had on threads where you proved that you don't actually have much knowledge of things and just have opinions based on other people's opinions and not actual experience in whatever it is you're talking about (like the mistreatment of animals and how the United States justice department deals with it).

For someone who doesn't have an issue personally attacking someone and their credentials or knowledge, you sure do have a thin skin for it when someone does question your opinion or knowledge. This isn't just based off of this thread either, I'm witnessing you do it in another one currently as well.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I have an issue with misinformation on this forum, you've been spewing a lot of it lately, so I felt like calling you out on it and pointing out to another member that some of the things that make you sound "respectable" are just someone being loud without much actual fact behind it. Mostly this is based off of other discussions we've had on threads where you proved that you don't actually have much knowledge of things and just have opinions based on other people's opinions and not actual experience in whatever it is you're talking about (like the mistreatment of animals and how the United States justice department deals with it).
> 
> For someone who doesn't have an issue personally attacking someone and their credentials or knowledge, you sure do have a thin skin for it when someone does question your opinion or knowledge. This isn't just based off of this thread either, I'm witnessing you do it in another one currently as well.


You have a lot to learn. And if you listened to what I am saying, instead of attacking, you would benefit, significantly in life.

I am not misinforming anything.. Have you ever considered that you might be the one who is wrong?

I picked one specific training situation I believed I could answer... Directed, specifically at me. And I think I answered it pretty well..
There are MANY MANY training questions on this forum I don't chime in for at all.

I rarely answer training questions... 

I will post on overall training 'approaches' for pet dogs..
An opinion on this is vital for EVERY pet dog owner. If you go all-positive/blanaced/Yank and Crank... 
You will be fed significantly different information. 
So I research this thoroughly...

As for the actual training.. I dont comment much.
You should learn from that and comment less too.

I am getting information from private messages, about 4 short years ago, you had big problems with your dogs, and had to find some type of professional help.

Some of us, start off more educated before we get a pet... And through each generation of dogs, our management improves.
You are on your first Rodeo. Please understand that.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Wrong about what exactly? Your lack of real life experience and just watching of YouTube videos and book reading? And apparently a few emails back and forth with a trainer.

In America...you're what is popularly referred to as an "armchair quarterback." Someone that thinks they know how to do something better than someone who is actually doing it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

how bout you boys go out and work your dogs for a bit, get off the technology. I bet your dogs are whining to have some active aggression controlled by some rewarding ball play!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Well, my dogs are all tuckered out from a day of obedience and bite work training already. I like to give them the nights off when they've had such a great day.

And if Lykoz does live where he claims to live, it's like 3 or 4 in the morning there, so it might be pretty difficult to do anything. Although he might just put on a YouTube video for them to watch and learn from...


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> how bout you boys go out and work your dogs for a bit, get off the technology. I bet your dogs are whining to have some active aggression controlled by some rewarding ball play!


Hahah well said.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> how bout you boys go out and work your dogs for a bit, get off the technology. I bet your dogs are whining to have some active aggression controlled by some rewarding ball play!


Onyx'girl, you angling for a moderator spot? lol JK!


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