# WUSV video



## gsdsar

Ok, who has seen it? Deb Zappia and her dog Eros and the epic take down on the long bite!!!!

I can't figure out how to post video, but it was a sight to behold!!!

I showed it to everyone at work today! Had to explain what was going on, but everyone loved it!!!

A 98 in protection at worlds. That's super impressive!!!

Thoughts? Can anyone link the video?


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## JakodaCD OA

I loved it,,soooooooo cool it gave me goosebumps)

Sorry I am computer illiterate!!


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## lalachka

WUSV 2014 Iron von den Wolfen and Debra Zappia long attack - YouTube


Wow Wow Wow 
What a dog


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## GatorDog

Atta boy Eros


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## d4lilbitz

That has to be an awesome feeling for Deb and her dog to do that at the world's!


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## Jax08

It was awesome! Eros is a BEAST! Looks like he almost took him down the second long bite as well.


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## gsdsar

Thanks Lala for the video!! 

It's got to be an an ain't feeling for her!! At the WORLDS!!! I mean come on!!! Unreal!!! I don't know her, but that dog is a beast!!!!


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## onyx'girl

I love the helpers expression








USA is certainly representing this year!!


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## Jax08

gsdsar said:


> I don't know her, but that dog is a beast!!!!


Both Deb and Eros are great.  He's really something to watch.


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## Jax08

I LOVE this picture! Have to love a helper that enjoys seeing the dog win, even at his expense. 



onyx'girl said:


> I love the helpers expression
> 
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> USA is certainly representing this year!!


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## GatorDog

I'm just glad they're both ok!


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## Jax08

It must have knocked the wind out of him. Eros flipped him. Good helper!!


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## onyx'girl

GatorDog said:


> I'm just glad they're both ok!


No kidding....


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## gsdsar

Yup, that helper did a great fall. It could have gone very wrong. His look of "joy" is awesome. You know when you got best by a good dog!!!

I especially loved Eros taking the sleeve a prancing off!!! So frikking awesome!!!


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## Jax08

He took the sleeve home to Momma. LOL


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## onyx'girl

Karlo would have taken the sleeve and bashed it back into the helper for more game. I wonder if that would have lost him points?


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## RocketDog

onyx'girl said:


> I love the helpers expression
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> 
> USA is certainly representing this year!!



Me too. Almost as much as I loved watching Eros take him down.


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## misslesleedavis1

That was very cool!


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## Nikitta

WOW! That was so cool. What a gorgeous dog.


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## Castlemaid

Wow! That is one heck of a take-down!


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## Colie CVT

That's one way to win the sleeve!


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## cliffson1

Some judges would have disqualified the dog for leaving helper and going back to handler.


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## Jax08

Why Cliff? Even though the helper released the sleeve?


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## onyx'girl

I would hope the dog would guard/stay engaged with the helper or until commanded by the handler to return to handler. Isn't that what this 'game' is about?


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## GatorDog

I highly, highly doubt that if the sleeve is slipped, the judge expects the dog to keep engaging. Not only is that pointless, but it's dangerous.


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## GatorDog

I think this is just one other instance of the whole idea that people are going to have something negative to say whether you fail or succeed.


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## lhczth

Totally agree Alexis. Far safer that Iron took his prize and left instead of engaging the downed helper. He would definitely have been disqualified if he had spit out the sleeve and bitten the man.


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## onyx'girl

Why is it dangerous? I'm not posting my thoughts on this particular situation( I am in awe of this team)
but the whole scenario. I'm not talking about anything more than guarding/not biting.

I know most dogs do return to their handler after the sleeve is slipped. My question back in post #16 was if the dog pushed the sleeve back to the helper, that would probably disqualify as well? My dog seldom returns to me when the sleeve is slipped, he will when I command him, but his choice is always to push it back on the helper.
I guess we'd better work on that.

Edit: I wasn't trying to be negative at all, just curious about the scenario. I hope my post wasn't taken as negative to this team.


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## Jax08

I'm very new to all this but isn't that what we train? The sleeve is slipped and the dog returns to the handler? Exactly as Eros did?


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## Liesje

Kudos to Deb and her dog! Sounds like she (and the other Americans) are putting up some amazing scores. Hard work paying off!

What happens after this happens in trial? Does she repeat the long bite? I've never seen a trial take down in person.

If this were my dog, I think the reaction would depend on the situation. In a trial or doing a trial routine, especially on a helper he's never seen, I do think he would come back to me with the sleeve. There's just not enough pressure there and no "relationship" of pressure/provocation from a trial helper to keep him there. If it were in training, and with a helper he *knows*, depending on how he was being worked, there might be a problem, but that's why in training I attach a line before the sleeve is slipped or call the dog back. In training we worked hard to balance out the defense/prey and he was always a dog that we encouraged TO carry and hold because he typically did not want to do it (likewise if you wave a sleeve around and then kick it off to the side he won't even glance at it). Can you call your dog if this happens in trial? Granted, my dog never hit like that on a long bite and I don't trial at this level so I never anticipated a problem.


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## Jax08

Yes, Lies. She repeated the long bite.


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## Liesje

Wow, how nerve-wracking! I bet the dog loved it though  I hope the full routine (and her obedience) shows up on YouTube.


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## Jax08

Lies - sending you a PM


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## DaniFani

I'm not sure why it's being dubbed dangerous to stay and guard a disarmed/passive decoy? Isn't this the worlds? Aren't these supposed to be the best of the best, most under control, awesome dogs ever? Aren't they supposed to view the threat as a threat? Don't we expect a dog to stay engaged with the threat (even though passive), until called off? Isn't that the point of the sport, to expose a dog's ability to engage, and not view the whole thing as a game/training exercise? 

I also don't understand the disdain for critiquing and discussing a dog during it's competition at the worlds? It's not like we are critiquing a noob's club training video. These are the dogs that are going to be bred, are being bred, and (I thought) were being critiqued via things like trials, to determine where this great breed everyone is so worried about is going....

How is this much different than when we slip the sleeve, kick it to the ground, and expect the dog to remain engaged with the decoy...even if he's passive (at my club at least, we do a lot of bark and holds on passive decoys, maybe other clubs don't do it because it's dangerous?). 

We also have plenty of dogs that will go up and push the decoy with the sleeve...remaining engaged. We have dogs that will run back to their handler, but it's kind of a cool thing to see the dog want to remain engaged, imho. Same way I think it shows some strength to stay engaged with a helper instead of a sleeve five feet away on the ground. No one (or maybe I'm reading this wrong), is saying this is a bad team. People are just discussing this one aspect. That's how we learn, right?

However, I'm new to all this, know nothing, am still learning, and will probably be told I'll never be as amazing a trainer as the handler of the dog...so keep my noob mouth shut lol.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I think it comes down to training. If in training the dog carries the slipped sleeve to the handler then thats what he will do. If he is trained to be more man oriented then thats what he will do in most cases.

I watched a LE K9 be worked by an IPO helper. He carried the sleeve after it was slipped and was infact very equipment oriented. Yet the handler states he has a street bite and has done suit work and hidden equipment. 

I think they know the difference between trial and real life.


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## GatorDog

DaniFani said:


> I'm not sure why it's being dubbed dangerous to stay and guard a disarmed/passive decoy? Isn't this the worlds? Aren't these supposed to be the best of the best, most under control, awesome dogs ever? Aren't they supposed to view the threat as a threat? Don't we expect a dog to stay engaged with the threat (even though passive), until called off? Isn't that the point of the sport, to expose a dog's ability to engage, and not view the whole thing as a game/training exercise?
> 
> I also don't understand the disdain for critiquing and discussing a dog during it's competition at the worlds? It's not like we are critiquing a noob's club training video. These are the dogs that are going to be bred, are being bred, and (I thought) were being critiqued via things like trials, to determine where this great breed everyone is so worried about is going....
> 
> How is this much different than when we slip the sleeve, kick it to the ground, and expect the dog to remain engaged with the decoy...even if he's passive (at my club at least, we do a lot of bark and holds on passive decoys, maybe other clubs don't do it because it's dangerous?).
> 
> We also have plenty of dogs that will go up and push the decoy with the sleeve...remaining engaged. We have dogs that will run back to their handler, but it's kind of a cool thing to see the dog want to remain engaged, imho. Same way I think it shows some strength to stay engaged with a helper instead of a sleeve five feet away on the ground. No one (or maybe I'm reading this wrong), is saying this is a bad team. People are just discussing this one aspect. That's how we learn, right?
> 
> However, I'm new to all this, know nothing, am still learning, and will probably be told I'll never be as amazing a trainer as the handler of the dog...so keep my noob mouth shut lol.


I'm genuinely curious as to what people expect this dog to do in this situation, other than bring the sleeve back to his handler. I can guarantee that your club isn't the only club who trains guarding on a passive helper, but this is completely different than that. When you train that exercise, how is the dog controlled? When your helper throws the sleeve to the side and asks the dog to bark at him vs. the sleeve, do you or do you not have your dog controlled by a line, to keep the helper safe? The helper was knocked to the ground, and the sleeve was slipped, not kicked away. This was an attack exercise, not a guard. Where was this dog supposed to feel a threat with the sleeve shoved in his mouth and the helper on the ground? Did you truly expect the dog to spit the sleeve and guard the helper? I honestly don't understand the logic..Truly, I'm curious.


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## DaniFani

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I think it comes down to training. If in training the dog carries the slipped sleeve to the handler then thats what he will do. If he is trained to be more man oriented then thats what he will do in most cases.
> 
> I watched a LE K9 be worked by an IPO helper. He carried the sleeve after it was slipped and was infact very equipment oriented. Yet the handler states he has a street bite and has done suit work and hidden equipment.
> 
> I think they know the difference between trial and real life.


I get that. I just don't think it's a bad thing for the dog to stay an engage. If some judges, as Cliff says, would disqualify the dog for returning to helper....maybe it's something that can be discussed. It's more stressful to stay and engage, not as stressful to return to handler. I think it's worth discussing. :shrug:


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## GatorDog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I think it comes down to training. If in training the dog carries the slipped sleeve to the handler then thats what he will do. If he is trained to be more man oriented then thats what he will do in most cases.
> 
> I watched a LE K9 be worked by an IPO helper. He carried the sleeve after it was slipped and was infact very equipment oriented. Yet the handler states he has a street bite and has done suit work and hidden equipment.
> 
> I think they know the difference between trial and real life.


THIS! This is IPO. This is not real life. This is a sleeve. Not an armed criminal. And an unsleeved helper on his back will pose no "threat" to a dog. He's trained to carry it back. I honestly don't understand any other points in the other comments.


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## DaniFani

GatorDog said:


> I'm genuinely curious as to what people expect this dog to do in this situation, other than bring the sleeve back to his handler. I can guarantee that your club isn't the only club who trains guarding on a passive helper, but this is completely different than that. When you train that exercise, how is the dog controlled? When your helper throws the sleeve to the side and asks the dog to bark at him vs. the sleeve, do you or do you not have your dog controlled by a line, to keep the helper safe? The helper was knocked to the ground, and the sleeve was slipped, not kicked away. This was an attack exercise, not a guard. Where was this dog supposed to feel a threat with the sleeve shoved in his mouth and the helper on the ground? Did you truly expect the dog to spit the sleeve and guard the helper? I honestly don't understand the logic..Truly, I'm curious.


Truly. I like dogs that, with sleeve in mouth...push into the decoy or at least keep an eye on the helper. This dog got the sleeve and scaddadled. Not an eye back, not a glance, just took off. We do guarding out of the blind and off lead for dogs that are more advanced (is this not an advanced dog?). We do all kinds of exercises outside the "norm" of the IPO trial structure. Two days before a trial one dog ran to a decoy hiding in bushes and did a guard.

My question to you. If this is something that some judges will DISQUALIFY for, it isn't horrendous to expect the dog to stay or at least discuss that aspect. So are these hypothetical judges just plain wrong? Why would they see fit to disqualify? Disqualify is a big bad word, not just a point deduction, but out of the running. Isn't something some would disqualify for, worth discussing?


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## DaniFani

I don't get it. On one hand us sport people are constantly defending the sport as not being "just a game," not being "robotic" and yet now those are the very defenses for a dog being critiqued and discussed. I don't understand. 

I guess I should just say, "dog was amazing" and leave it at that.


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## robk

I, for one, am glad that the dog did not drop the sleeve and attack the downed helper. That would have been a disaster. What the dog did is really the only thing that it should have done.


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## GatorDog

DaniFani said:


> Truly. I like dogs that, with sleeve in mouth...push into the decoy or at least keep an eye on the helper. This dog got the sleeve and scaddadled. Not an eye back, not a glance, just took off. We do guarding out of the blind and off lead for dogs that are more advanced (is this not an advanced dog?). We do all kinds of exercises outside the "norm" of the IPO trial structure. Two days before a trial one dog ran to a decoy hiding in bushes and did a guard.
> 
> My question to you. If this is something that some judges will DISQUALIFY for, it isn't horrendous to expect the dog to stay or at least discuss that aspect. So are these hypothetical judges just plain wrong? Why would they see fit to disqualify? Disqualify is a big bad word, not just a point deduction, but out of the running. Isn't something some would disqualify for, worth discussing?


That is personal preference. I, on the other hand, don't see any point in allowing my dog to molest the helper with the sleeve in his mouth, let alone a helper who may or may not have gotten hurt with a catch like that. It's personal preference and definitely not something that I would consider faulting a dog on, because I know this dog and I know his training and I know he's not allowed to do so. So how can you base judgment off of a dog when the trained behavior after slipping the sleeve can't even be pointed in trial?


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## lalachka

Reply to rob

I also wondered why he ran back. I'm also a beginner, just saying what ran through my mind. 
I thought he'd guard, not attack, of course. Or, at the very least, wait for direction. 

But I don't know anything about this. Just saying what went through my mind when I saw it. 

Still, very nice take down


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## lhczth

Alexis, give up.  

No judge would have disqualified this dog and to say so is just to cause an argument and to find a way to pick on the "sport" dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1

DaniFani said:


> I don't get it. On one hand us sport people are constantly defending the sport as not being "just a game," not being "robotic" and yet now those are the very defenses for a dog being critiqued and discussed. I don't understand.
> 
> I guess I should just say, "dog was amazing" and leave it at that.


 
Id say the dog is a good dog. However, he is not focussed on the helper because he does not percieve the helper to be a threat once the sleeve is slipped. With a dog of his quality I doubt it would be to hard to change if the handler wanted too. 

The sport is a game its how you train that tells you what your dog is from my perspective.


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## GatorDog

lalachka said:


> Reply to rob
> 
> I also wondered why he ran back. I'm also a beginner, just saying what ran through my mind.
> I thought he'd guard, not attack, of course. Or, at the very least, wait for direction.
> 
> But I don't know anything about this. Just saying what went through my mind when I saw it.
> 
> Still, very nice take down


Guard what? How would you expect him to gaurd? He has a slipped sleeve in his mouth, helper on the ground. In your opinion, what should he have done?


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## DaniFani

GatorDog said:


> That is personal preference. I, on the other hand, don't see any point in allowing my dog to molest the helper with the sleeve in his mouth, let alone a helper who may or may not have gotten hurt with a catch like that. It's personal preference and definitely not something that I would consider faulting a dog on, because I know this dog and I know his training and I know he's not allowed to do so. So how can you base judgment off of a dog when the trained behavior after slipping the sleeve can't even be pointed in trial?


Where did I judge the dog? I have said, I understand most of it is training. I wanted to discuss the fact that this would disqualify under some critiques. WHY would it disqualify, WHY do some (judges) view this as a fault, and what strengths can it expose? Is it "wrong" to disqualify? Why is it "wrong?" Are we training a game? 

For the last time, I understand that a dog that is taught to run back over and over and over again, will do it on the trial field. I'm curious about that in regards to it being a disqualifying fault to some judges. That's all.


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## GatorDog

DaniFani said:


> Where did I judge the dog? I have said, I understand most of it is training. I wanted to discuss the fact that this would disqualify under some critiques. WHY would it disqualify, WHY do some (judges) view this as a fault, and what strengths can it expose? Is it "wrong" to disqualify? Why is it "wrong?" Are we training a game?
> 
> For the last time, I understand that a dog that is taught to run back over and over and over again, will do it on the trial field. I'm curious about that in regards to it being a disqualifying fault to some judges. That's all.


I don't know of a single judge who can fault this. By the rules, he can't be disqualified for the helper slipping the sleeve and anything immediately following, providing that the dog isn't out of control or dirty bites anyone. I don't even know why someone said it could be disqualified, because it cant. It's not the first time in history that this has happened.


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## DaniFani

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Id say the dog is a good dog. However, he is not focussed on the helper because he does not percieve the helper to be a threat once the sleeve is slipped. With a dog of his quality I doubt it would be to hard to change if the handler wanted too.
> 
> *The sport is a game its how you train that tells you what your dog is from my perspective.*
> 
> I'm starting to see this. It's more the training than any of the trialing, that tells you something about a dog.
> 
> I just wanted to discuss how people feel about the fact that the dog *could* lose for leaving the helper. Is the consensus that disqualifying for that would be inexcusable for a judge to do?


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## Jax08

One person quipped that some judges would disqualify for this and then hasn't come back to expand on that. While many people experienced in the sport have said this was the safest thing to do for in regards to the helper. Maybe the appropriate approach would be to send Cliff a PM and ask him to expand on his thought. And maybe send Frank a PM as well. He's a judge and has also seen Eros in person. I'm sure he can add an "official" take on this.


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## robk

The dog is trained from an early age to hold the sleeve until commanded to out it. Now he has taken it from the helper and is returning back to his handler as he has done hundreds of times in practice whenever a sleeve was slipped. He would have no basis for dropping it and gaurdng the helper.


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## lalachka

GatorDog said:


> Guard what? How would you expect him to gaurd? He has a slipped sleeve in his mouth, helper on the ground. In your opinion, what should he have done?


Spit the sleeve and sit by him or not leave him until told while the sleeve is in his mouth. 
Leaving without a command is what stuck out to me


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## RocketDog

lalachka said:


> Spit the sleeve and sit by him or* not leave him until told while the sleeve is in his mouth. *
> Leaving without a command is what stuck out to me


Why in the heck would the dog sit there with the sleeve in his mouth? To do what, exactly? Stare him down?


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## MilesNY

Imagine how many helpers we would have if we all trained our dogs to out a slipped sleeve and attack the helper. I mean really, what would that look like here? What if he was hurt? What if he moved the wrong way and the dog perceived he should bite? This is a sport, there are rules, plenty of "sport dogs" would absolutely bite someone, but that isn't what this is about. It's about showing power and strength within the rules of the sport. These guys aren wearing a suit, they could get very badly hurt if control wasn't there.


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## DaniFani

lhczth said:


> Alexis, give up.
> 
> No judge would have disqualified this dog and to say so is just to cause an argument and to find a way to pick on the "sport" dog.


This is what I'm trying to figure out. My mistake for believing a cold statement. I don't think leaving and going back to the handler is a fault at all to the dog. I'm just trying to discuss the act of staying, and the expectation of some to do this. What staying can "show," or not show, etc..

I agree that this is something that is training (repeating, again.).

The consensus seems to be that a judge, in fact, wouldn't disqualify, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with running right back to the handler. Point taken.


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## GatorDog

RocketDog said:


> Why in the heck would the dog sit there with the sleeve in his mouth? To do what, exactly? Stare him down?


Lmao.

There's no point to sitting next to a helper with a sleeve there. And I'd love to understand anyone who says that a dog pushing into the helper with the sleeve isn't a "game".


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## lalachka

robk said:


> The dog is trained from an early age to hold the sleeve until commanded to out it. Now he has taken it from the helper and is returning back to his handler as he has done hundreds of times in practice whenever a sleeve was slipped. He would have no basis for dropping it and gaurdng the helper.


Yeah probably. I guess I'm still looking at it as mimicking real life. 

In any case, I don't want to argue. He's amazing and I just gave the thought that came to my mind when watching.

ETA yes, that's why I gave the option of staying there with the sleeve in his mouth. In case he doesn't want to out without a command. So then why is leaving without a command ok?


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## lalachka

Never mind. As you said, that's because this is what he was taught. So I guess he doesn't need the command, slipping the sleeve is the command to come back? Is that what you mean?


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## robk

2012 WUSV


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## Jax08

lalachka said:


> Never mind. As you said, that's because this is what he was taught. So I guess he doesn't need the command, slipping the sleeve is the command to come back? Is that what you mean?


Yes. Through training, he's conditioned to return with the sleeve.


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## robk

lalachka said:


> Never mind. As you said, that's because this is what he was taught. So I guess he doesn't need the command, slipping the sleeve is the command to come back? Is that what you mean?


This dogs want to take a victory lap with the sleeve, but we command them to return to us with it so we dont have to go get it from them when the stop at the opposite side of the field.


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## lalachka

robk said:


> 2012 WUSV
> 
> Fury van het Groot Wezenland took the sleeve from the helper at WUSV 2012. - YouTube


Ok lol. Amazing dogs


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## Liesje

GatorDog said:


> That is personal preference. I, on the other hand, don't see any point in allowing my dog to molest the helper with the sleeve in his mouth, let alone a helper who may or may not have gotten hurt with a catch like that. It's personal preference and definitely not something that I would consider faulting a dog on, because I know this dog and I know his training and I know he's not allowed to do so. So how can you base judgment off of a dog when the trained behavior after slipping the sleeve can't even be pointed in trial?


Agree. The helper is down, possibly hurt (OK this one smiling but I've seen videos of a helper knocked out). Also, at a huge event like this I'm guessing the dog has never trained on this helper except for maybe in practice at the event. This helper hasn't really pushed any "nasty buttons" in training or anything like that. Even my nastier dog with a LOT less training and experience would almost undoubtedly take the sleeve and come back to me. I can see a helper getting bit without a sleeve if he's actually putting some pressure on a dog (say table work or working behind a barrier with no sleeve, misjudges distance, and...oops!). I've never seen a Schutzhund dog trained or expected to do a passive attack. Even when I did SDA this was not something I was comfortable with training, I only allowed biting or guarding when the decoy was a direct threat or challenging based on his movement in/near our space. I am not a police officer and do not train LE dogs so I'd never want my dog to go after someone lying on the ground. 

There are plenty of placed to prove the bad-younknowwhatness of a dog, but an IPO routine at a world championship is not one of them.


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## Liesje

RocketDog said:


> Why in the heck would the dog sit there with the sleeve in his mouth? To do what, exactly? Stare him down?


You can do some work like this but again, this is a training thing, not what would happen in a big trial like this. There are things you can do with a sleeve in training other than the dog guarding, biting, or running and carrying. Not all dogs *need* to carry or hold a sleeve, but some should. Many times in training my dog has held a sleeve near the helper and they do kind of a staredown, the dog kind of bites into the sleeve or gives it a torque. Hard to explain but it really depends on the dog. Channeling some of that frustration and fight can be important even if the sleeve is not on the helper's arm and it isn't just about "winning" the object and parading it in circles.


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## Packen

Both my dogs have knocked helpers out. Best outcome is to get dog back close to you so downed helper can be helped (in some cases, carried off the field). Nice hit, way to go Deb n Eros.


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## GatorDog

Packen said:


> Both my dogs have knocked helpers out. Best outcome is to get dog back close to you so downed helper can be helped (in some cases, carried off the field). Nice hit, way to go Deb n Eros.


Safety above ego, in this case :thumbup:


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## lhczth

And, from what I have heard, the helper was walking around with his arm in a sling today so probably a good thing the dog didn't jam the sleeve into him hurting him even more.


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## GatorDog

lhczth said:


> And, from what I have heard, the helper was walking around with his arm in a sling today so probably a good thing the dog didn't jam the sleeve into him hurting him even more.


Yikes. It definitely looked like a hard hit.


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## Vandal

As usual, Lies is onto something with her comments. The courage test is about a man coming down the field threatening the handler. You could look at it this way, Eros removed that threat and went back to join his handler to see if there was anything else she needed done.


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## Vandal

And I will add, if the dog had taken the sleeve and run off the field to find the car, that would've been a cause for dismissal. He returned to his handler and there is nothing inherently wrong in doing that when the threat has been eliminated. Look at the picture of the guy on the ground .....does that look like any kind of a threat to you?


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## GatorDog

Vandal said:


> And I will add, if the dog had taken the sleeve and run off the field to find the car, that would've been a cause for dismissal. He returned to his handler and there is nothing inherently wrong in doing that when the threat has been eliminated. Look at the picture of the guy on the ground .....does that look like any kind of a threat to you?


Not only that, but he almost knocked the helper down on the second long bite too


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## Vandal

I've seen it happen, where the helper falls down and the next bite becomes a problem for the dog because it disturbed him. Some dogs won't out after that or you see the concern in the dog in some other way. The fact that he did the rest well when he was asked to do it again, says something about the dog. I like this dog. So, maybe I'm biased.


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## Liesje

I've also seen dogs stepped on. Some panic, others fight through it. I think Jane's dog was stepped on when I saw him in trial and he kept right there, but he's a powerful fighting dog.


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## REDMEN

Go Team USA! but I have to be honest, I am secretively rooting for Huber Helmut & Hank vom Weinbergblick! Already posted 99 in A & 97 in C. That team brings their A game to the big dance every year. If they can pull it off this weekend it would be 3 World Championship in three years I believe.


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## osito23

What an awesome dog! Our trainers are watching the trial in France - I bet it was a blast to see that live.


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## cliffson1

I was not DISPARAGING the dog, nor the sport, I know he is a very good dog and I applaud his long bite. My comment also was not in reference to any comparison between sport and LE or sport and real, I only said that some "Judges" would have disqualified dog for returning to handler or leaving the helper....I have seen this happen twice over the years. The judge made the point that the dog is not to leave helper unless recalled. May not be relevant here, though he left the helper, but just made an observation. Sorry for the sensitive toes of some!


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## Packen

Leaving the helper when helper is performing a test, I understand. Leaving a helper after crushing the helper, that should have dq'd the helper per say. Not the dogs fault when the adversary has tapped out. Can you post a video of that occurance, I think there may have been other stuff going on. But crushing a helper, defeating him to being a creature crying out for help while laying flat, is not grounds for a dog dq. Sorry Cliff, does not compute, video please.


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## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> DaniFani said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure why it's being dubbed dangerous to stay and guard a disarmed/passive decoy? Isn't this the worlds? Aren't these supposed to be the best of the best, most under control, awesome dogs ever? Aren't they supposed to view the threat as a threat? Don't we expect a dog to stay engaged with the threat (even though passive), until called off? Isn't that the point of the sport, to expose a dog's ability to engage, and not view the whole thing as a game/training exercise?
> 
> I also don't understand the disdain for critiquing and discussing a dog during it's competition at the worlds? It's not like we are critiquing a noob's club training video. These are the dogs that are going to be bred, are being bred, and (I thought) were being critiqued via things like trials, to determine where this great breed everyone is so worried about is going....
> 
> How is this much different than when we slip the sleeve, kick it to the ground, and expect the dog to remain engaged with the decoy...even if he's passive (at my club at least, we do a lot of bark and holds on passive decoys, maybe other clubs don't do it because it's dangerous?).
> 
> We also have plenty of dogs that will go up and push the decoy with the sleeve...remaining engaged. We have dogs that will run back to their handler, but it's kind of a cool thing to see the dog want to remain engaged, imho. Same way I think it shows some strength to stay engaged with a helper instead of a sleeve five feet away on the ground. No one (or maybe I'm reading this wrong), is saying this is a bad team. People are just discussing this one aspect. That's how we learn, right?
> 
> However, I'm new to all this, know nothing, am still learning, and will probably be told I'll never be as amazing a trainer as the handler of the dog...so keep my noob mouth shut lol.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm genuinely curious as to what people expect this dog to do in this situation, other than bring the sleeve back to his handler. I can guarantee that your club isn't the only club who trains guarding on a passive helper, but this is completely different than that. When you train that exercise, how is the dog controlled? When your helper throws the sleeve to the side and asks the dog to bark at him vs. the sleeve, do you or do you not have your dog controlled by a line, to keep the helper safe? The helper was knocked to the ground, and the sleeve was slipped, not kicked away. This was an attack exercise, not a guard. Where was this dog supposed to feel a threat with the sleeve shoved in his mouth and the helper on the ground? Did you truly expect the dog to spit the sleeve and guard the helper? I honestly don't understand the logic..Truly, I'm curious.
Click to expand...

I'd prefer my dog spit the sleeve and go into a B&H


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## GatorDog

cliffson1 said:


> I was not DISPARAGING the dog, nor the sport, I know he is a very good dog and I applaud his long bite. My comment also was not in reference to any comparison between sport and LE or sport and real, I only said that some "Judges" would have disqualified dog for returning to handler or leaving the helper....I have seen this happen twice over the years. The judge made the point that the dog is not to leave helper unless recalled. May not be relevant here, though he left the helper, but just made an observation. Sorry for the sensitive toes of some!


Not sensitive at all. I'd like to know when this has ever happened.


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## cliffson1

First, it was club trial both times and there was no video, second, I apolgize for the observation......everyone carry on.


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## onyx'girl

hunterisgreat said:


> I'd prefer my dog spit the sleeve and go into a B&H


ego above safety?


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## DobbyDad

Anyone know what happened on the tracking portion. Not the score, I've seen that, but what actually happened.


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## Jax08

DobbyDad said:


> Anyone know what happened on the tracking portion. Not the score, I've seen that, but what actually happened.


Politics. Critique from the judge was handler help on the articles. There was a video up, that showed NO handler help but part of it was missing so it was pulled while they try to get the whole track together. People watching the track had it scored as a 95-96.


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## Liesje

That's too bad. But IMO a low tracking score doesn't erase the fantastic OB and protection!! Kudos!


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## gsdsar

Yeah this has been an interesting WUSV. Seems to be a lot of grumbling about "cheating" or unfair advantage. 

Even with handler help on articles, would that cost someone 30pts? I don't know?


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## 148298

*Hah*

I saw this at my club today before working the dogs and we had a good laugh. Good dog. Helper was smiling at Iron in a photo still while laying on the ground. A bit "unfair" to the dog when he had to repeat the exercise after retrieving the sleeve; the dog ( & handler) were frustrated. Oh well. Go Iron!


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## lalachka

gsdsar said:


> Yeah this has been an interesting WUSV. Seems to be a lot of grumbling about "cheating" or unfair advantage.
> 
> Even with handler help on articles, would that cost someone 30pts? I don't know?


30? I thought she scored 91 and got the highest overall. No?
Also,how can handler help? They know where The article is?
And if they do, how would they help? 

Wrong thread for these questions?


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## gsdsar

She got a 70 on tracking. From what I understand the judge said there was handler help on the articles. But I have not watched the video yet of her tracking. 

She and the rest of the USA team did amazing. So proud of our people!!!!


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## lalachka

gsdsar said:


> She got a 70 on tracking. From what I understand the judge said there was handler help on the articles. But I have not watched the video yet of her tracking.
> 
> She and the rest of the USA team did amazing. So proud of our people!!!!


Oh I w as looking at combined qualification results. She got the best scores there out of everyone. 

Yes, she did amazing for sure


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## GSDElsa

To clear a few things up. Eros did what he is trained to do...which is once the guy no longer becomes a threat and slips the sleeve he returns to Deb. He would do whatever he was trained to do, and that's exactly what he did. If he would have been trained to drop the sleeve and go into a B&H that's what he would have done too. No reading into it too much. He's a very nice, powerful dog who has an amazing trainer with excellent control. 

I am in Deb's club so I will not comment on her tracking routine as anything I would have to say on the matter would be biased. So I'm reserving my comments in a public venue. You all can judge for yourself. I've seen on other forums people asking for Deb to comment. She is not the type of person to do so, so the peanut gallery will have to go at it themselves. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8YAk_og18Y&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL_eSZtjk8k&feature=youtu.be

Moderators, why can I never get videos to imbed properly?!?!


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## Liesje

The forum won't embed the secure links.


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## Steve Strom

GSDElsa said:


> To clear a few things up. Eros did what he is trained to do...which is once the guy no longer becomes a threat and slips the sleeve he returns to Deb. He would do whatever he was trained to do, and that's exactly what he did. If he would have been trained to drop the sleeve and go into a B&H that's what he would have done too. No reading into it too much. He's a very nice, powerful dog who has an amazing trainer with excellent control.
> 
> I am in Deb's club so I will not comment on her tracking routine as anything I would have to say on the matter would be biased. So I'm reserving my comments in a public venue. You all can judge for yourself. I've seen on other forums people asking for Deb to comment. She is not the type of person to do so, so the peanut gallery will have to go at it themselves.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8YAk_og18Y&feature=youtu.be
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL_eSZtjk8k&feature=youtu.be
> 
> Moderators, why can I never get videos to imbed properly?!?!


I'm kinda biased too, from over here in the peanut gallery, Lol. Do you know what the judge said in the critique? The video's don't show her at the articles with him? 30 points lost???


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## Jax08

Interesting that the US was in 2nd by only 18 points. If the track had been scored appropriately, in the 90s, the US would have been 1st.

I would love to see the judge's critique as well.


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## lhczth

Handler help on an article means all points gone for that article. The three articles in the IPO3 are worth 21 pts. Then another 9 pts some place to get to the 70. 

I have not watched the videos.


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## GSDElsa

What I'll share is that all the judge basically said was handler help at articles. 70 points....

The videos are what they are. Some I'm sure will have something negative to say about her and the dog, others something positive.


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## GSDElsa

Just thought people might want to see the follow-up to the sleeve slip as well.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10204824464082297&set=vb.1559521978&type=2&theater

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10204824473122523&set=vb.1559521978&type=2&theater

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10204824483722788&set=vb.1559521978&type=2&theater


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## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> Handler help on an article means all points gone for that article. The three articles in the IPO3 are worth 21 pts. Then another 9 pts some place to get to the 70.
> 
> I have not watched the videos.


Lol, I should have done a little math. Oh well, too bad they're edited out. I wouldnt want to knock her or the dog, but I would like to see what the judge called handler help at the articles, just to learn from it..


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## GSDElsa

Steve Strom said:


> Lol, I should have done a little math. Oh well, too bad they're edited out. I wouldnt want to knock her or the dog, but I would like to see what the judge called handler help at the articles, just to learn from it..


What are you talking about? There are article indications at the end of both videos. I think you're confused? The article indication is when the dog downs in the video.


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## Steve Strom

GSDElsa said:


> What are you talking about? There are article indications at the end of both videos. I think you're confused? The article indication is when the dog downs in the video.


No kidding? I thought he got he just got tired. I was just assuming what the judge was calling handler help came when SHE was at the article with him. NOT on your videos.


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## GSDElsa

Steve Strom said:


> No kidding? I thought he got he just got tired.


Are you being serious?!


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## Jax08

No. He's not being serious.

Steve - the critique as I understood it was that Deb leash checked him on the articles. That was a comment from someone there but I have not heard the critique. I have heard it was very short.


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## Steve Strom

Ahh, Thanks Jax. I was rooting for her, even though I don't know her. And I love her dog.


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## Jax08

Steve Strom said:


> Ahh, Thanks Jax. I was rooting for her, even though I don't know her. And I love her dog.


You would like her.  In the short time I've known her, I've seen nothing but ethical behavior from a person who cares deeply about the sport and her people.

And Eros just rocks. But I'm more than biased since I have an Eros son.


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## joneser

Looks like the YouTube link is private...any non-private links out there?


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## gabyeddo

That was unfair for Debbie.
She definitely got screwed over on tracking because she would be the 1st place if she got 95.
I don't see anything wrong in tracking.


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