# Do you think an untrained GSD will protect you?



## Ilovemypuppies

I have heard both, I personally think that an untrained GSD will protect you if you are in trouble. I am not saying that all GSD's have that protective instinct. All dogs are different. I also want to hear why or why not if you have the time. And of course you can tell of personal incidents where your dog has protected you.
BTW i am new and haven't quite figured out how to put the poll thing up:crazy: so bare with me please.


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## Emoore

Not to sound like a Congressman, but it depends on your definition of "protect."


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## Lakl

I would think it would also depend on the dog.


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## chelle

Emoore said:


> Not to sound like a Congressman, but it depends on your definition of "protect."


Yes, this. 

Too many variables... At home? Yes, he will bark and look ferocious and if I didn't give him an "ok, thanks," the barking and posing would go on. Attack? No, I doubt that very, very much.


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## GregK

Against an all out attack? No.


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## Lucy Dog

Depends on the individual dog. Some would, some won't.


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## Syaoransbear

If it's at night, absolutely. Daytime, probably not, but I haven't met any skeevy people in the daytime like I have at night.


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## mycobraracr

The GSD I had growing up did. She had no formal training but was very protective. Granted I was a child and she was very motherly. I think it has to do with the dog and most importantly your bond with the dog.


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## Warrior09

Hachi & Bella are both barkers not biters LOL


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## sashadog

I've found out recently, Sasha "protects" mostly out of fear so I question her willingness to take on a true attack if her barking and lunging doesn't work like she wants it to. Strangely enough though, I really believe that my Cattle Dog would defend me to the death. This is the same dog that got hit by a car and jumped up and "attacked" the number before realizing that she was kind of sore  She doesn't back down from much and is my constant shadow. 

Probably just depends on the dog as well as their stability and nerves. My friends GSD (5 y/o male), untrained in protection, has attacked an intruder but he is confident and stable. Sasha, not so much....

Do you think age has anything to do with it? Older dogs more likely to follow through on a threat because their possibly more confident?


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## Ilovemypuppies

> Do you think age has anything to do with it? Older dogs more likely to follow through on a threat because their possibly more confident?


I don't think that little eight week puppies would attack someone but I think 9 month GSD's would probably attack if threatened.



> Not to sound like a Congressman, but it depends on your definition of "protect."


For example, someone tries to break into your home or someone tries to attack you when you are out on a walk.

I do believe that it depends on the dog, but some people (might be you) think that any untrained GSD won't attack if there owner is in trouble. I just wanted to know what you all thought thanks for the input


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## Good_Karma

I have a very strong bond with my 2 1/2 year old male GSD. He watches me like a hawk. We train together, run together, we are home together 100% of the time, and he comes with me on every trip I take to town.

If someone attacked me I am pretty sure Niko would bark, and then run away. He has never been trained in personal protection, and I know he loves me, but I do not think he would protect me. I'm not entirely sure that even with training he would protect me. I hope he never gets the chance to prove me wrong.


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## Konotashi

I have another question - when you say trained, what kind of training are you implying? Schutzhund training? Or personal protection? I would hope that a PP trained dog would protect, but a SchH trained dog is trained for the sport and the sleeve, not necessarily real world situations. Though I do think that SchH is a good foundation to see if your dog can/will protect you and has the nerve to do so.


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## bianca

I don't think Molly would 'attack' but I had an incident a couple of months back where someone was outside my house at night. DH is a paraplegic and was in bed so I threw Molly's collar and lead on and when I took her outside she straight away went cujo toward this man. 

She has never reacted to a person before like this so I don't know. Maybe it was fear on her part? But I didn't let her get too close to the man to find out exactly what she may have done. She did look and sound intimidating though.


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## Caledon

I don't know if she would. She loves people. I think any dog can protect as you read about it all the time. 

When I was a teen my family had an irish setter. Dog loved everyone. One day when I was walking him in the park I was approached by two older boys, who walked accross the groomed grass towards me The dog transformed into a growling, lunging barking force. Never ever did he display this before or after this day. I believe he protected me.


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## Emoore

Ilovemypuppies said:


> For example, someone tries to break into your home or someone tries to attack you when you are out on a walk.


Well, GSDs aren't like handguns; a GSD is most effective before an attack ever happens. 99% of home invaders or assailants are going to pick an easier target than one who has a German Shepherd or two. The dog's mere existence is extremely protective. If the dog barks, that's even more protective. If the assailant is on drugs, is mentally ill, or is out to get you specifically, most dogs are likely to put up some sort of resistance, but if the bad guy starts punching, kicking, stabbing, shooting--- your untrained dog is going to back down quite quickly and is likely to be killed if the bad guy is armed.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Ilovemypuppies said:


> For example, someone tries to break into your home or someone tries to attack you when you are out on a walk.


But still - as she said, define "protect". What would you expect your dog to do (or not do) under those circumstances? Stand in front of you and bark aggressively? Attack the perp?


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## Lilie

If we spend our time socializing, training, guiding, creating a solid relationship with our dogs....why would you think your dog would turn tail and run in the event that his/her 'pack' was in danger? 

Assuming that the dog in question has a solid foundation and doesn't have fear issues etc. 

I would expect my dog to stay and fight, if I was fighting. I would expect my dog to run...if I were running. I would expect my dog to follow my lead.

No, I don't think my dog would go for the jugular and hold the thug down till he stops moving. Nor do I think my dog will grab a "sleeve" and hold on for dear life. But I do think my dog will defend his family to the best of his ability.


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## Witz

The hypotheticals in this subject are beyond anyone's ability to assume or predict the behavior of a dog to respond. 

Even the trained personal protection dogs can be overwhelmed by a given situation. You best bet is to consider your dog a deterrant, not a protector, unless you are willing to develop the skills, which have to be backed by strong nerve, to allow the dog to have the confidence that he/she is tougher then the bad guy. And this can take a long long time. If you own a dog that just has a nasty personality, who is just waiting for a fight, well they are probably difficult to live with.


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## robk

I think it depends on the dog and the circumstances. The right dog under the right circumstances on his own turf would probably protect you. Most dogs probably wouldn't.


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## chicagojosh

hmm, I think Cody would protect me. As someone else mentioned his guard is up more at night time. 

I feel if a if someone entered the house without me home, he'd rip them up. Our poor pizza delivery guy gets a heart attack everytime from Cody's bark and stair down from the window.

I also feel if I was out and someone tried to mug me he would attack. Especially if he could hear in my voice i needed him. If i was getting the upper hand in the conflict I could see him barking, hair up and ready to attack, but probably just circling the guy if I already laid into him... 

now, if a gunshot is fired...he'd probably run like **** and bail on me lol. he HATES fireworks.


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## GSDAlphaMom

Back in the 80's with my first gsd the k9 offiicer I was traning drug detection dogs with suggested a test on my dog. Note this was a companion dog(friendly/good nerves) and not a dog we were training in drug detection. I had made a comment I didn't know what he would do if someone broke in so at his suggestion...

One night I went to bed and put him on a lead next to the bed (he slept there anyway), shut the door and pretended to sleep like any other night. The police officer crawled to the door and just cracked it open. Jack (gsd) went ballistic trying to get to him. 

Even though he knew I had him on a lead he said it was pretty scary. I joke now that if someone ever tried to come in my house they would probably drop dead of a heart attack with 5 of them barking at them. That or it would be a pretty awesome scene watching them try to get out fast enough to out run them. Fortunately I live in a safe neighborhood, but you never know.


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## Chicagocanine

It really depends on the dog, and the situation.


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## Lilie

I wonder if somewhere there is a forum with a thread that reads, "Will your untrained spouse protect you".


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## KentuckyGSDLover

I can't really vote because there are so many variables. Yes, I believe many untrained GSD will protect/defend you, even when you don't want them to. Why it is unwise to have an untrained GSD, period.


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## Emoore

Lilie said:


> I wonder if somewhere there is a forum with a thread that reads, "Will your untrained spouse protect you".


I wonder if our dogs get on the internet when we're gone and start threads like, "Will your owner take care of you when you're old and need $5000 in surgery."


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## Lilie

Emoore said:


> I wonder if our dogs get on the internet when we're gone and start threads like, "Will your owner take care of you when you're old and need $5000 in surgery."


I know mine gets in the freezer and eats all the ice cream. Most likely, he eats it while surfing the net.


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## Good_Karma

Lilie said:


> If we spend our time socializing, training, guiding, creating a solid relationship with our dogs....why would you think your dog would turn tail and run in the event that his/her 'pack' was in danger?
> 
> Assuming that the dog in question has a solid foundation and doesn't have fear issues etc.
> .


Niko has dog fear issues, not really people issues. He does bark at strangers and not let them get close until we establish a relationship, but I don't think he is being protective, I think he's just being reactive (fear I guess). Maybe I am wrong. The one time he had a chance to choose fight or flight (my husband dropped the leash when a dog charged them) Niko chose to run for home. That's what I am basing my assumption on.


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## Tim Connell

Lilie said:


> I wonder if somewhere there is a forum with a thread that reads, "Will your untrained spouse protect you".




Hah! Very good!


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## Tim Connell

Emoore said:


> I wonder if our dogs get on the internet when we're gone and start threads like, "Will your owner take care of you when you're old and need $5000 in surgery."



 Funny!


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## Emoore

Tim Connell said:


> Funny!


It wasn't really meant to be. I wonder how many people who expect their dogs to lay down their lives to protect their masters, would be willing to cut into their own lifestyle to pay for a needed surgery or procedure. How many people expect their dog to take a bullet for them but dump him at the shelter because he snapped at the kid who was pulling his tail?


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## Tim Connell

It seems there is a wide variation in what would be deemed "protecting you". 

Would it be:

Displaying a confident posture toward someone, causing them to avoid you?

Barking, causing them to avoid you?

Biting?

An untrained dog has some similarities to an untrained human when confronted with a violent confrontation...it's sometimes anyone's guess until the chips are down.

Even trained dogs sometimes face issues when engaging "for real", so regardless of trained vs. untrained, it's always dog and situation dependent.


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## Tim Connell

Emoore said:


> I wonder if our dogs get on the internet when we're gone and start threads like, "Will your owner take care of you when you're old and need $5000 in surgery."


Actually, it was the visual you portrayed of the dog utilizing the computer that I found amusing. 

Perhaps that is what they do when we are not with them!


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## Ilovemypuppies

> It wasn't really meant to be. I wonder how many people who expect their dogs to lay down their lives to protect their masters, would be willing to cut into their own lifestyle to pay for a needed surgery or procedure. How many people expect their dog to take a bullet for them but dump him at the shelter because he snapped at the kid who was pulling his tail?


 It is really sad that people want there dogs to protect them but they aren't willing to protect their dog. I hate seeing all those perfectly good, loving dogs put into shelters because there owners got bored with them or they were 'vicious'. And the dog probably trusted the owners


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## doggiedad

:thumbup:



Lucy Dog said:


> Depends on the individual dog. Some would, some won't.


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## doggiedad

maybe not.



Syaoransbear said:


> >>>> If it's at night, absolutely.<<<<
> 
> Daytime, probably not, but I haven't met any skeevy people in the daytime like I have at night.


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## DharmasMom

Emoore said:


> It wasn't really meant to be. I wonder how many people who expect their dogs to lay down their lives to protect their masters, would be willing to cut into their own lifestyle to pay for a needed surgery or procedure. How many people expect their dog to take a bullet for them but dump him at the shelter because he snapped at the kid who was pulling his tail?



So true. And just for the record, I would eat Ramen noodles and watch nothing but the local channels if that is what was necessary for me to do to take care of Dharma. So she can post that on her internet forum tomorrow while I am at work. 

As for the original question; who knows? I think she would to the best of her ability but she is not trained for all out protection so I would not expect her to. Just because she would try doesn't mean she would be successful.


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## gsdfan81

It depends on what kind of temperment and drives the dog has. You can't train a dog for personal protection if the drives aren't there. It doesn't matter if its a German Shepherd or not. So if the dog has the right drives it will probably attempt to protect you, even though the training is not there. The training just develops and tempers the drives with obedience.


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## GregK

Emoore said:


> I wonder how many people who expect their dogs to lay down their lives to protect their masters, would be willing to cut into their own lifestyle to pay for a needed surgery or procedure?


Right here, dude. And don't expect any of my crew to lay down their lives to protect me.


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## Jack's Dad

Emoore is a dudette.


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## GregK

my apologies, Emoore.


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## Debbieg

We had a situation on New Years Eve when one of my sons came home at 3:00 am from his job at the Bowling Alley and allowed a stranger into the house to use the bathroom. (My son knew the person who was walking to his home after a party but still had several blocks to go)

Annie, (sons pitbull) began whipping her tail excitedly against the wall "Yippee a stranger is in the house!" She thinks all people are "live vending machines"
Jake (DH's Borzoi) slept through all the commotion

Benny stood between our bedroom and the bathroom barking and not letting the person out until I called him off.

Of course DH yelled at me to "Get my ****dog to quiet down; it is 3 am! 
I said "Benny is the only one acting appropriately and gave him a piece of cheese! Happy New Year to us!

I guess Annie and Jake were acting appropriately for a Borzoi and a Pitbull.

I do feel secure with Benny. Don't know what he would do if I was physically attacked but he is definitely a deterrent and I feel safe walking him on the unlit bike path in the pre dawn hours.


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## Emoore

GregK said:


> my apologies, Emoore.


None needed.  I call everyone dude regardless of gender.


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## cuttingedge

Here are two short stories for you to think about:

when I was growing up my mother used to breed Shepherds so we always had them in my family. I remember one time when I was about 12-13 I walked into the Kitchen at night with a friend and were play fighting. Out of a dark corner came Buff our older male and within what seemed like a second he had my friend on the ground by the neck. Did not cause a lot of damage but without a doubt he would have had nobody stopped him.

My Grandparents had shepherds since they built their house in the early 50's and I remember always beeing outside with the dogs playing.
One day my Uncle and Cousins were in town from Colorado and I was outside with the pups Hansel and Gretel and my Uncle and cousins came outside and started coming towards me. Big male shep took down uncle and was on top of him barking at his face and the female had my cousin in the fetal position and was holding him by his leg. Neither was trained in anything but basic obedience. I am sure that 80% of this breed would give their lives to save the owners against an attack. They are smart and can sense when someone means harm to their pack. My current Shepherd Katama is an 85 pound male which I have trained in obedience and just started training in Bitework. He is great with people that he knows but if some unknown person were to come in to the house especially at night watch out. I have proven this with willing participants and his mere presence is enough to scare most would be intuders away. Should they make it past him (not likely) they will have some mysterious red dots on their chest/ head area we all know what comes next.


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## pets4life

gsdfan81 said:


> it depends on what kind of temperment and drives the dog has. You can't train a dog for personal protection if the drives aren't there. It doesn't matter if its a german shepherd or not. So if the dog has the right drives it will probably attempt to protect you, even though the training is not there. The training just develops and tempers the drives with obedience.



great post


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## 2GSDmom

None of my GSDs have been trained in bite or protection work. Yet, not one of them has failed to step up when needed. It has been my experience that the breed's penchant for this trait is strong enough that it takes precedence regardless of specific training--training merely brings out and refines the existing ability.

We used to joke that our 1st GSD loved people so much that he'd happily show the burglars where we kept the silver, just to be helpful. However, one fine summer evening, as a group of my siblings and cousins sat out on our porch, a bunch of local boys drove up in their pickup, hooting and catcalling. Now, most of us knew they were just joking around, but one of the younger girls became frightened. No sooner had we noticed her distress than we heard a strange, bone-rattling rumble. From around the side of the house paced our GSD, teeth completely bared (I had jno idea his teeth were THAT BIG), the hair raised not just on his hackles, but all over (it made him look twice the size, and he was large to begin with). He planted himself in front of the stoop and the boys took one look, hopped back in their truck and sped away (they later said that was the scariest thing they'd ever seen). The moment they were gone, the dog turned back to us, tail wagging, tongue lolling, looking like a goon--totally back to normal.

It had never made a difference to my dogs whether it was myself or another who needed protecting---they have always seemed to have great discernment. I think that is the true mark of their remarkable talent-- to rise to the occasion when warranted, then blow it off, returning to companion as easily as they became protector. I love that switch--it's too cool for words.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

I absolutely believe Sasha would protect me. I mean that in every sense of protection (meaning reacting with the appropriate level of aggression given the situation). 

For instance, when this guy was following me in town, catcalling and being a jack, at first she listened when I told her to leave it-at this point I wasn't scared, merely annoyed. As he kept trailing me, getting closer, I started getting more nervous and finally she stopped dead in her tracks, turned around, gave him the stare down and started this low growl/snarl. It wasn't over the top it was just a very assertive, "Stop." type message. It was effective and as soon as he started walking away we continued on our walk and she was fine, smelling things, taking treats, engaging fully in what we were doing. The danger had passed.

Another situation: My shoulders and my back are always messed up because I sleep on my stomach. When my brother gives me a massage it causes pain, which I appreciate because it eventually makes it better, but at that moment I'm in quite a bit of pain. Sasha knows my brother isn't a threat, yet there I am in pain. She does not freak out, she doesn't growl, she just comes over and lays beside me. I am not signaling danger to her, yet she can tell something is off and wants to be there to watch the situation. 

If someone full on attacked me I have no doubt she'd step up unless I could stop her. I honestly don't know if I would want her to put herself in danger to protect me, but I believe she would give her life for mine. To be fair I would do the same for her.


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## Audsys

My two GSD experiences-

First one was when I was younger, about 14 (26 now) my grandmother owned this huge, black bitch who was actually the runt of the litter when it was given to her by her breeder friend. I would see her during the holidays when my family came to visit and she always remembered me and was really generous with the licking all over. She was really affectionate with me, but aloof to everyone else who was visiting.

One night, we woke to the a scream and the GSD barking her head off. My grandad and dad grabbed their guns and flashlights and headed out. They found out that some people were trying to get into our house by removing the rubber sealant thing that holds window panes in place. They had their tools all set out when the GSD must have sniffed or heard something from all the way across the property and went to investigate.

The next day, a few hours after filing a police report, we got a call saying that one of the would be burglars wanted to sue us for our dog. The cop said that he had sustained a minor injury on his lower back, but off the record he said that he literally had been bit in the butt as he tried to climb over the fence making his escape. We come from a country where cops really side with the communities they work in and after a making sure that the dog didn't have rabies, the entire thing went away.

So yes, I am sure that particular GSD would 'protect' my family in case of a break in.

Second thing that happened was with my GSD, Amigo (spanish for friend), we were out walking on the local beach. It was deserted at 6pm so I let Amigo off leash. He went off sniffing the water's edge while I walked to this water fountain 30 feet away for a drink. Out of nowhere the biggest boxer I have ever seen comes bounding towards me, barking and ears down, leash dragging uselessly on the ground. I see no owner around and am yelling in a firm voice at this oncoming dog to 'sit' or 'down' hoping it will stop.

At this point, I reach into my jacket pocket for my pepper spray, nervous as **** that I am actually going to have to use it. The dog is 15 feet away and I'm struggling to remove the the safety tab. I then see this mass of wet black and tan fur come out of nowhere and collide into this boxer. The boxer then falls down and Amigo chases it away with a few barks. No biting involved just a massive fur missile out of nowhere. He then jogs back to me, dripping wet, and just gives me the cocked head GSD look as if to say 'what in the world were you doing?'

The owner comes up to us about 10 minutes later, Boxer in tow. It's a tiny woman walking the dog for her husband. Wherein the Boxer is heavier and much stronger than her. She confesses that it really isn't good with strange men and it simply got away from her when she let him out of the car.

While I do not expect Amigo to protect me from a home invasion, all I really ask is that he bark his little four year old head off if there is anything suspicious going around the house. Since it is my house, with my wife, and my dog, then it falls to me to make sure I can adequately defend it.


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## Bridget

I have such faith in the morality and intelligence of GSDs that I believe even an untrained one that was a stranger to me would protect me if he saw that I was in trouble. Guess that sounds completely insane.


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## Marnie

My dogs do a lot of posturing and barking but it is 99% bluff. For that I'm thankful. Wouldn't want to leave it up to a dog to decide who is a threat and who is an innocent stranger. 

The only experience I have of a dog attacking, was with my previous GSD (no protection training). We entered the barn at night to check on a mare due to foal. Some guy was in the tack room pulling saddles off the racks to steal. I yelled and my little collie went after him and got his pant leg. He kicked her, she yelped and the GSD was on him, biting both his hands and getting him on the cheek. I'm pretty sure the GSD would not have gone after the guy if he hadn't hurt the collie. He would have barked and chased but probably not bitten.


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## GSDolch

I don't know.

I don't expect every GSD or dog I have/know to do so. But I know that my Bailey Girl will. She has, twice.

I remember the first time..I also remember getting lots of flack for people on here (I don't believe they post anymore) saying she was going to be a dangerous dog, that I didn't know what I was doing, etc etc.

I was at the park, the sun was setting, she was walking infront of me, we were walking under a bridge, I see two hands on either side of me, next thing I know Bailey has ahold of dudes leg, she lets go, he runs off. She is solid black, and we were in a dark spot so either he didn't see her, or didn't think she would do anything.

She was only about 6-8 months old. I am GLAD that she did that. I may not be here if she had not. Oh, and for those who said she was going to go all crazy psycho....about 10yrs later she still waiting for the moment to do it, but im _sure_ she is gearing up for it! 

The second time there was no bite and she listened to me. She had no formal training, just the basics. She was older to, probably about 2 or so. The cops got the wrong house, came to ours, lights outside, etc etc. My ex went to see what was going on, I was in the bedroom, cop came to the window that was open (had a fan in it) and Bailey did that low deep growl from the chest that says if you come in im gonna eat you. Well, I knew it was a cop and ha, I also knew who it was! Told her it was all fine and she settled down. She stayed alert by my side, but she didn't do anything.

I *hope* that future GSDs of mine act the same way. But I don't *expect* it.


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## Ilovemypuppies

Thank you guys so much for you stories. I had an untrained German Shepherd named Bear and he had NEVER in his life showed any kind of aggression to ANYONE, but one day we were camping out at our new property that had a creek on it and our new neighbors came through the woods and started talking to us from across the creek and they looked like they were about to come over but then Bear started barking and growling a little bit they stopped dead in there tracks and we tied Bear up. He was about one years old or younger. That same day he met many new people and loved them all. I know he wasn't acting out of fear. There was something about those people that didn't sit right with me and he knew it to.


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## katdog5911

I definitely think most gsd will do something to try and protect their person... Stella is only 7 months old and extremely mellow and sweet so who knows how she will be but I had shepherds growing up and they were never trained in protection...they just did it on their own. One probably saved my father's life more than once. My dad had to chase a group of teenagers out of a pool one night and they weren't too happy about it. So they threatened my dad and tried to circle him and who knows what would have happened if his dog hadn't been there. He must have sensed danger because he went bananas. The group of teens didn't linger. This sort of thing happened more than once. The dog even tried to rescue my dad from drowning one time....even though my dad was not really drowning...he just went diving under water. But the dog thought he was in trouble, jumped into the water and tried to pull my dad out! The truth of the matter is the dog almost drowned my father...lol...But my dad displayed his bite marks(from the dog trying to pull him up) proudly....


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## JKlatsky

It depends on the dog. As with almost any other breed of dog. It just depends. I think a confident dog with a sound temperament can be expected to act appropriately in a situation. 

And it also depends on what you mean by protect. Will an untrained dog alert you to an intruder? I think most of the times yes. 

Will an untrained dog bark aggressively when it perceives a threat? Maybe. You'd be surprised how many dogs come out to Schutzhund training and get very nervous when approached aggressively by the helper. I think environment plays an important role in this. IME, A dog with a barrier is more likely to bark aggressively. Like a door, or a fence, or even a leash can help a dog to feel more confident in asserting itself. 

Will an untrained dog actively pursue and engage an attacker? Probably not. I suppose there are exceptions, but I certainly wouldn't make that the rule.


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## Karenzv

My family had a german shepherd when I was 10 years old. Colonel had no formal training..he was just the family pet. He knew his job was to protect me & my 5 siblings. One day a guy came to fill the tractor's fuel tank and was walking up to the house and my little brother was sitting beside the sidewalk playing..the man patted my brother on the head as he walked by. Colonel jumped up and grabbed the guy's hand...didn't bite down hard enough to break the skin, just held his hand until we told him to let go. He also would position himself in front of us, if my dad raised his voice to scold us.


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## Pooka14

Pooka's not trained (other than to sit, shake paw, give a kiss, and house trained haha), but he has tried to protect me. I say try because we were never in any serious danger, but the unknown caused him to go into protect mode. For example, my husband used to be on second shift. One night when he came in he was covered in ink and starch so Pooka couldn't smell him so all Pook knew someone was in the house. I woke up to Pooka standing over me growling at the bedroom door. Pook didn't move until he saw it was my husband and even then it took him a few seconds to stand down (because of the chemical smell rolling off Brian) and allow my husband to come near the bed.

He often stands between me and anything he perceives to be a threat.


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## Chicagocanine

My Golden Retriever Ginger "protected" me several times. I don't know that she would ever have bitten anyone to protect, she had a very soft mouth (as a Golden should) and was well-socialized so I know she would not have bitten anyone for any other reason; even if she was in pain she didn't. 
However what she did when there was a perceived threat (in all but one case I either felt at the time or after the fact that it was a real threat) was stand square in front of me and bark until the person left. Ok, actually there were two cases it wasn't a real threat. One was the ATTS temperament test. There is a part where a weirdly-dressed stranger first comes out in the distance(non-threatening), then comes a little closer yelling things (threatening) and finally runs towards you waving and yelling at the dog (aggressive.) Ginger stood there in front of me totally ignoring the guy in the first two parts, then as soon as he actually became aggressive she stood her ground and barked at him. The other time she raised hackles and barked at someone who was not actually a threat was when we were out for a walk at night. I was meeting my brother at a certain place, so as we were walking she saw a guy wearing a hooded poncho standing on the corner as we walked towards it. I have to admit my brother tends to look somewhat menacing in general (he has that sort of stance/walk, he also gets mistaken for a cop a lot) so I don't blame her for barking at what she thought was some weird-looking hooded poncho-wearing stranger who didn't yield as we approached. I guess between the rain and the dark she didn't recognize him, but as soon as we got close enough she went directly from hackles raised and barking into her usually wiggle-butt greeting. So she wasn't right all the time, but the other few times she did bark at a person (very very unusual for her) it seemed like they were an actual threat.


----------



## 4TheDawgies

Depends on the dog, the age, and whats happening.

My male Loki saved me from a potential robbery, rape, break in, whatever. A guy tried to break into my apartment 2 years ago and quickly changed his mind when he was met with Snarling teeth smashing against the sliding glass door.

I called the police and they found the guy, he had two warrants out for his arrest (they wouldn't tell me what). The officer just pet Loki, smiled at me and said I was very lucky to have a dog like him.
I have never forgotten what Loki did for me.


----------



## Draugr

I think a dog will certainly growl/bark and "look" scary to 99.99% of the populace - even though it's a reaction based in fear.

Escalating to attack?

Dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years to not progress to the "attack" part of their prey drive. It takes a lot of intense training for them to do so on command - or severely denigrated genetics.

Yes, I certainly realize and accept that there are exceptions. But in general, no, I do not believe a GSD who is not trained in personal protection will protect you any further than typical canine fear reactions that are interpreted by most of the population to be "I'm going to bite you, grrrrr!"

Now, that's talking about neutral ground. On home turf? I think a lot of dogs are far more inclined to progress to attack when encountering a very real threat on their home turf.


----------



## 3ToesTonyismydog

Absolutly!!! Some say GSD's were breed to herd but I am a firm believer they were breed to herd and protect, something the other headers can't do. If a GSD gets to much socializing with a huge number of people, then you can count that one out. 

Tony and I were coming from the lake (in the suburbs) and in the middle of the road were 2 coyote's. Tony let out the most god awful growl that I have ever heard in 50 years. He then went nuts trying to get to them. I had to grab him by the collar and roll up the windows. Crap he went crazy and we almost went into a ditch. It was something I have never heard come out of a GSD and I have had GSD's for 50 years. Oh I am older but won't tell ya that and I am a male.


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## JPF

My take: no one here knows till it actually happens. And "it" happening is really rare. Most people's examples are mere intimidation which is all you should ever expect. Just the sight of a gsd is enough to freak out most people even if they as soft as tissue paper.


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## tmnamba

I don't mean to be negative in any way. How ever, I don't think an untrained GSD will protect you. I definitley think it will scare off many would be criminals but put in a situation where you are both in fear for your life, I believe that an untrained dogs fight or flight emotion would kick in and 90% that are not trained to be comfortable in a truly scary situation would choose flight. 

They all make great watch dogs and deterrents just not protection dogs.


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## pets4life

dogs snarling and barking at a threat? i dont consider any of this real protection unless the dog fights the person sorry. 

A poodle or any dog really will bark and snarl at a person that trys to hurt or attack you and put on a bluff dogs will bark but unless the dog holds its ground and bites and trys to fight the attacker i dont consider it real protection. Any dog is going to bark and bluff you dont need a gsd or special dog for this it just what all dogs will do if they love their owner they will put on a show for them before they bolt out of fear.


My friend who is a pp trainer on the west coast has the most scary presa u would think she would rip your face off she doesnt even bolt but she wont bite either. I do know a couple of gsds and cattle dogs that will bite without training and have done it.


----------



## pets4life

also i wanted to correct my statement i dont think it is super rare for a dog to actually bite when its in a bad situation a dog like a gsd but i think to fight and protect yes it is rare, a nasty bite would probably be enough though 

and i am not saying all dogs who bark are bluff we all know many of these fearful dogs even if u are walking on leash with them and attack their owners they will still nail you so to some that is protection also. To some that might be protection. But to me i am just looking at protection as a dog that will bite anyone who trys to hurt you for real.


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## Seer

Witz said:


> The hypotheticals in this subject are beyond anyone's ability to assume or predict the behavior of a dog to respond.
> 
> Even the trained personal protection dogs can be overwhelmed by a given situation.


Emmore the dudette with the Clintonisation line, depends on what you mean by protect.

These two are the most accurate for me. But my personal favorite of all time adapted for my own personal theatrics.....

Understand that my barking lunging dog will in fact give me the necessary time to draw this here pistol and protect them.


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## WaterBound

Honestly I have seen some dogs do nothing while their owners got knocked out . I have even seen the bad people play with the dog afterwards. Maybe those owners just did not love their dogs enough.

It all depends on the dog itself and especially if it is untrained like your scenario.


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## chelle

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> ....If a GSD gets *to much socializing* with a huge number of people, then you can count that one out.


Mmmm, I didn't know there was such a thing. Color me guilty. So all that work was for naught? What a drag.


----------



## Falkosmom

WaterBound said:


> Honestly I have seen some dogs do nothing while their owners got knocked out . I have even seen the bad people play with the dog afterwards. Maybe those owners just did not love their dogs enough.
> 
> It all depends on the dog itself and especially if it is untrained like your scenario.


Care to share what you have seen?


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## GSDLVR76

Yes, she would. She has already proven on two different occasions that she would protect us. First time happened when I was walking her and a man stopped us and he got a little to close for her comfort and she positioned herself in between me and the man and let him know with a firm bark to back up. Which he did with a quickness. The second time happened when we were camping and we heard her starting barking like crazy and she took off around the side of our truck and I yelled for her, she stopped. My husband went around the truck to see what was there and there stood a man who had been watching our kids through the bushes. I think he crapped his pants.


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## codmaster

tmnamba said:


> I don't mean to be negative in any way. How ever, I don't think an untrained GSD will protect you. I definitley think it will scare off many would be criminals but put in a situation where you are both in fear for your life, I believe that an untrained dogs fight or flight emotion would kick in and 90% that are not trained to be comfortable in a truly scary situation would choose flight.
> 
> They all make great watch dogs and deterrents just not protection dogs.


 
Fight or flight is a choice that dogs (and people!) might have to make at some time in their life.

Many dogs (esp breeds like a GSD) will choose to fight for someone close to them.

But even mommy dogs MAY decide for flight even if they have little puppies. I saw one of them at a very big well known kennel when we were looking for a puppy!

Hard to be sure what any one dog will do in a real crisis until it happens (same as with a person - can anyone be absolutely sure what YOU would do faced with a real serious physical threat to you and/or your family? Don't be sure until it happens!!! (Hopefully never does of course!!!)


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## arycrest

I honestly don't know what the Hooligans would do!!! Nothing dramatic has ever happened except for them barking at strangers walking down the street or at people acting weird, it's hard to tell. Of course if the chips were down and my life were threatened, I'd hope they would come to the rescue, but am not sure they would.

BUT people have always shown them a great deal of respect only because they happen to be GSDs who might bite them (based on remarks I've heard over the years from various strangers).


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## chib

Sorry for the old bump but.

I strongly think my GSD would protect me if I was ever in trouble...

If someone approaches me awkwardly or fast he instantly starts barking and lunging towards the person in total anger. I have had him almost attack a friend when meeting up with me on a walk, A friend my dog knew as a puppy but still decided to show aggression. 

People cannot approach him without my consent on leash, He will instantly start barking and raises his fur with teeth shown if they try to lean down to say 'hi'.

With women it's a different story, He is almost always friendly and loving with any female aside from those that are nervous around him. I

I have done tons of socialization with him but there's certain things in his bloodline that just seem to stick with him.


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## d4mmo

chib said:


> Sorry for the old bump but.
> 
> I strongly think my GSD would protect me if I was ever in trouble...
> 
> If someone approaches me awkwardly or fast he instantly starts barking and lunging towards the person in total anger. I have had him almost attack a friend when meeting up with me on a walk, A friend my dog knew as a puppy but still decided to show aggression.
> 
> People cannot approach him without my consent on leash, He will instantly start barking and raises his fur with teeth shown if they try to lean down to say 'hi'.
> 
> With women it's a different story, He is almost always friendly and loving with any female aside from those that are nervous around him. I
> 
> I have done tons of socialization with him but there's certain things in his bloodline that just seem to stick with him.


the dog you describe is not a dog that can deal with a situation where he has to protect you very well. if he is barking and lunging for things like that it is likely he has a weak temperament.

yes your dog may bite someone if they threatened you, but i assure you if the offender screams or punches or kicks or fights your dog he will quickly choose flight. a dog who can not deal with a small amount of stress can not handle a situation like that..


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## Lykoz

No an untrained dog will not manage to protect you from a real actual assailant...
They will bark... They may even bite.. But essentially they will be unsure of themselves and crumble to the pressure quite easily.

It's like throwing one of you people into a street fight thinking you will protect your friends..
When the going gets tough and when people actually get hit or see a friend getting hit they freeze or run with no training.

Few actually would get stuck in from the general population naturally and would only get stuck in if their 'group' has the advantage.
Dogs are the same.. Increase the pressure and you will hear bark bark and then cry cry...

The only untrained dogs that will actually hold their ground are probably a danger as pets anyways.
If you want a real life personal story with this and dogs message me. Don't want to share publicly.

Real attacks are vicious an untrained dog does not have the nerve to actually defend you.

They may try but you will be surprised how easily they can be made to cry uncle.

This is why police work so hard in training the dogs they use.
Even ipo/schh work is not indicative of real fight drive...

I like west German lines because they are bred for prey drive and play... Even the ipo cert dogs.. It's a game to them, and many would buckle under real pressure. For me personally I like that it's a game and a sport, which is why I respect those lines.

The dogs with real fight drive are not the ones most people own.

Now is any dog good protection? I believe that.. But will an untrained dog fight to protect you? Maybe.... But very unlikely.


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## Reef LeDoux

*Yes. They will protect you.*

Mine have protected me twice. They did not back down!!
Those 2 are long passed away, but my new GSD is only 6 months old and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't either. The difference between a trained GSD and untrained is the act they would use to protect you. For example a trained GSD is trained to grab and hold (arm/leg) an untrained GSD is using instinct to fight. 
And yes they are born with that instinct. If they "think" someone is going to harm one of their pack, they will fight.


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## Lilie

Lykoz said:


> No an untrained dog will not manage to protect you from a real actual assailant...


You are wrong. Some dogs might, some dogs might not. I had an untrained (protection) stable, very friendly dog bite a man in the face when he attempted to rape me in my youth. After the incident she remained a very friendly dog with no behavioral problems at all. Can't say as much for my attacker. 

The best we can hope for is that we'll never have to find out.


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## Kyleigh

I think it depends on the bond with you and your dog (or the family and the dog), and the nerves of the dog. 

My first dog was a mutt - shepherd, lab and plott hound were the top three breeds when I did the DNA. She weighed about 85 pounds. Abby was the dog I learned all my mistakes from ... she was obedience trained, but that was it ... she was an awesome dog, and didn't require a lot of work, but I had no previous dog experience, and was winging it with her for most of her life! (I just thank god she was an awesome dog LOL)

She "protected" me on two occasions. The first time I was walking near the river (not a secluded area) but it was winter and it was dark at 6 pm. She was black and brown brindle, and hard to see at night. She was off leash, in a heel position. 

Out of nowhere this guy jumps out of the bushes right in front of me. Before he / I had a chance to do anything this HUGE LOUD growl comes out of my dog and the next thing I know she's got her paws on his shoulders and he's on the ground screaming and yelling. I almost pooped my pants!

I started to walk away and called her to me ... and she came instantly. Slipped her leash on her and we just kept walking. I had no idea what to do afterwards so I did nothing. 

The second instance I was playing chuck it with her in the baseball diamond. It was late at night (about midnight) and I saw two "figures" start coming towards the diamond. I called Abby to me, slipped the leash on her and we walked away from them and the diamond. For some reason they started running towards me and Abby. I took the leash off her (my thinking at the time was that if anything was going to happen, I wanted her to be able to run away ... not hold her there with me to "protect me" ... but save herself). 

They must have been drunk or stoned or something because they certainly weren't thinking very clearly ... they came running at the two of us, screaming and yelling and making all kinds of noise. I just kept walking really fast, and looking back to see that Abby was following. 

They got closer and the next thing I know she's running circles around them barking and snarling, snapping her jaws and just causing chaos. 

They wouldn't stop making noise ... but she was keeping them from getting closer to me ... and she was far enough away from them to not get kicked or punched. 

All of a sudden there's three cop cars - lights flashing and cops are running at us. I run towards the cops and I'm yelling HOLD ON HOLD HOLD ON ... that's my dog - she's not aggressive, she's just stopping them from coming after me. 

I called her to me (admittedly it took 2-3 times before she either heard me over all that noise, or realized it was ok to leave them alone) ... as soon as she stopped running around them in circles the cops were on them. I leashed her up, gave her a big hug and waited for the consequences (I was pretty sure I was going to be in huge trouble for not having full control of my dog, and the fact that she was off leash). (I live it Ottawa Ontario Canada - no guns, and VERY strict leash laws in the city!)

Turned out they had been chasing the guys (on foot) and lost them and someone had called 911 for me (no cell phones back then LOL). They didn't realize it was the same two guys they were chasing til they got them!

Abby was a star for the night, and while I thought I was in trouble, all went well!

Kyleigh, my GSD has "stood up" for me on a couple of warranted occasions and while she's 25 pounds lighter and about 6 inches smaller than Abby was, I have no doubt that she would stand guard for me. I really hope I don't have to see if she will "protect" ... it's a scary feeling and while I'm happy my first dog followed her instincts and was able to "protect" me, I never want to have to put my dog in that position.


----------



## Ace GSD

I think some will protect some will not but the untrained ones wont have a good grip and they might flee if the attacker kick them or something.
Even the trained one might wont bite if they see no sleeve.. maybe they think biting sleeves are games  .
I only have 1 GSD so far and never do IPO but those are my thoughts . what do you guys think ?


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## BeachLvr

Regardless of what we would all like to believe without protection training probably 98% would not protect their owner. Some may appear to but that could just be that the ability flee is blocked or perceived as blight. Flight or fight.


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## Lykoz

Reef LeDoux said:


> Mine have protected me twice. They did not back down!!
> Those 2 are long passed away, but my new GSD is only 6 months old and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't either. The difference between a trained GSD and untrained is the act they would use to protect you. For example a trained GSD is trained to grab and hold (arm/leg) an untrained GSD is using instinct to fight.
> And yes they are born with that instinct. If they "think" someone is going to harm one of their pack, they will fight.


Oh really? We're you actually assaulted? Hit for example... To the point that you could not handle yourself and needed protection from a dog?
They are NOT born with that instinct... Different lines of gsd are completely different in how they are bred.

None of these stories circulating around have any merit...

None of you were actually assaulted... Because if the dog fought the assailant and the assailant protected and stood his ground the dog would cry and run in most cases.

I don't get how you people can be so naive to think that all the selection of dog and work done by people training police dogs to stand and fight an actual assailant is meaningless. Why work to build the dogs confidence systemetically when YOUR DOGS ARE JUST BORN TO DO IT ALL!!!!

I have many stories just like the ones you guys are posting...
BUT those stories were not REAL ASSAILANTS...
You were not compromised.

Here is a REAL POLICE DOG AT THE WHITE HOUSE, Getting beat by skinny kid...





THIS IS A DOG THAT KNOWS HOW TO HANDLE PRESSURE I WOULD IMAGINE... He is working security at the white house for god sakes... 
Even if that dog maybe had flaws, I dont know... 

But WHAT makes you people think... your UNTRAINED DOG would behave ANY BETTER?
What would YOUR DOG DO if it was kicked and punched? Do you really think your DOG has the fight Drive to Re-engage?
People get punched in the face and they apologise... Why would a dog be different...

Your untrained PETS...
WERE BRED TO BE PETS! They have training to be PETS...
Everything else is just blind conjecture and absolute pretentiousness...

When a pet dog protects the family its all over the news, its rare and its story worthy... You don't hear of all the failures..

Here is a little girl that know more than most of you:





Flaw of the video? Dogs are likely not hers.
So lets move on.

This is a video of actual owners CLAIMING THEY HAVE PROTECTION DOGS





Too much rubbish circling around here.
The poll rubs me the wrong way...
That 70+ % of you actually think a non-trained, un-specifically bred dog, with right lines will fight to protect you..


----------



## Lilie

Lykoz said:


> None of you were actually assaulted... Because if the dog fought the assailant and the assailant protected and stood his ground the dog would cry and run in most cases.


Really? You were there when I was snatched in a pool, held under water and stripped of my bathing suit bottoms? You were there when my dog jumped into the pool (along with my best friend, she's no coward either) swam over and bit the man in the face. WHILE I was struggling to breath? You were there when the man held his face screaming while blood poured from it? 

If you were there, then why didn't you help? Because it takes no courage to sit in front of a computer screen and babble your total BS. As usual, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## Lykoz

Lilie said:


> Really? You were there when I was snatched in a pool, held under water and stripped of my bathing suit bottoms? You were there when my dog jumped into the pool (along with my best friend, she's no coward either) swam over and bit the man in the face. WHILE I was struggling to breath? You were there when the man held his face screaming while blood poured from it?
> 
> If you were there, then why didn't you help? Because it takes no courage to sit in front of a computer screen and babble your total BS. As usual, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


Not going to get into this story.
It is too personal for public discussion.


----------



## Reef LeDoux

Lykoz said:


> Oh really? We're you actually assaulted? Hit for example... To the point that you could not handle yourself and needed protection from a dog?
> They are NOT born with that instinct... Different lines of gsd are completely different in how they are bred.
> 
> None of these stories circulating around have any merit...
> 
> None of you were actually assaulted... Because if the dog fought the assailant and the assailant protected and stood his ground the dog would cry and run in most cases.
> 
> I don't get how you people can be so naive to think that all the selection of dog and work done by people training police dogs to stand and fight an actual assailant is meaningless. Why work to build the dogs confidence systemetically when YOUR DOGS ARE JUST BORN TO DO IT ALL!!!!
> 
> I have many stories just like the ones you guys are posting...
> BUT those stories were not REAL ASSAILANTS...
> You were not compromised.
> 
> Here is a REAL POLICE DOG AT THE WHITE HOUSE, Getting beat by skinny kid...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THIS IS A DOG THAT KNOWS HOW TO HANDLE PRESSURE I WOULD IMAGINE... He is working security at the white house for god sakes...
> Even if that dog maybe had flaws, I dont know...
> 
> But WHAT makes you people think... your dog UNTRAINED DOG would behave ANY BETTER?
> 
> What would YOUR DOG DO if it was kicked and punched?
> 
> Your untrained PETS...
> WERE BRED TO BE PETS! They have training to be PETS...
> Everything else is just blind conjecture and absolute pretentiousness...
> 
> When a pet dog protects the family its all over the news, its rare and its story worthy... You don't hear of all the failures..
> 
> Here is a little girl that know more than most of you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flaw of the video? Dogs are likely not hers.
> So lets move on.
> 
> This is a video of actual owners CLAIMING THEY HAVE PROTECTION DOGS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too much rubbish circling around here.
> The poll rubs me the wrong way...
> That 70+ % of you actually think a non-trained, un-specifically bred dog, with right lines will fight to protect you..


Well Since you asked... 
The 1st act of protection was when my ex husband and I were young he was/ is a police officer and asked a k-9 officer if he could bring our dog to train with the Police K-9s, to teach our dog protection. The officer told him "they dont need to be taught to protect". They came to my house (called me first) and the handler (had all the protective gear on) and attacked my husband in the front yard. Our GSD went crazy at the window I opened the door and let him out. HE ATTACKED! The handler was yelling kicking and throwing arms the dog did not turn and run. 
2nd time years later different GSD My youngest daughter was home alone about 10 years old 2 GSD's were in the back yard 1 in the house with her. A guy (stranger) who had just been in a fight with someone else in the neighborhood was running and screaming thinking the other was still following with a gun. He was on drugs and bloodied, beating on the glass front door, my daughter was screaming for him to leave. He opened the door and came in the GSD attacked. And did so until every cop in our city showed up! He said he came to our house because he wanted help and knew an officer lived there.. YES THEY WILL PROTECT.


----------



## llombardo

Lilie said:


> Really? You were there when I was snatched in a pool, held under water and stripped of my bathing suit bottoms? You were there when my dog jumped into the pool (along with my best friend, she's no coward either) swam over and bit the man in the face. WHILE I was struggling to breath? You were there when the man held his face screaming while blood poured from it?
> 
> If you were there, then why didn't you help? Because it takes no courage to sit in front of a computer screen and babble your total BS. As usual, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


I'm so sorry you went through that and I'm happy that your dog protected you. 

If they are loyal to you I feel they will protect you. Part of being a GSD is to do anything for their owner, including die for them if necessary. 

Give me real life situations over stupid set up videos anyday.


----------



## Lilie

Lykoz said:


> Not going to get into this story.
> It is too personal for public discussion.


You got into it already by calling those who felt their dogs protected them liars. You made it public. Don't crawl back now.


----------



## Lykoz

Lilie said:


> You got into it already by calling those who felt their dogs protected them liars. You made it public. Don't crawl back now.


No I wont comment. You posted that while I was writing my post.
Didn't call people liars. Just unrealistic.

The one or two rare cases (that can still sometimes be argued) is not 77%...
That is ridiculous.

Anyways I believe all dogs offer protection.
But they will back down if put under real pressure.

A lot easier if the odds are stacked in their favour, and assailants panic.
Pack mentality.... Dogs get brave when they are chasing or at an advantage.

That said I am glad your dog saved you.


----------



## Lykoz

Reef LeDoux said:


> Well Since you asked...
> The 1st act of protection was when my ex husband and I were young he was/ is a police officer and asked a k-9 officer if he could bring our dog to train with the Police K-9s, to teach our dog protection. The officer told him "they dont need to be taught to protect". They came to my house (called me first) and the handler (had all the protective gear on) and attacked my husband in the front yard. Our GSD went crazy at the window I opened the door and let him out. HE ATTACKED! The handler was yelling kicking and throwing arms the dog did not turn and run.
> 2nd time years later different GSD My youngest daughter was home alone about 10 years old 2 GSD's were in the back yard 1 in the house with her. A guy (stranger) who had just been in a fight with someone else in the neighborhood was running and screaming thinking the other was still following with a gun. He was on drugs and bloodied, beating on the glass front door, my daughter was screaming for him to leave. He opened the door and came in the GSD attacked. And did so until every cop in our city showed up! He said he came to our house because he wanted help and knew an officer lived there.. YES THEY WILL PROTECT.


Your husband was a police officer?

I wonder the type of dog a police officer would own...
What line was it? 
Most people in that 70% range dont own the type of dogs I think he had.

And I wonder if that dog was completely untrained.


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## misslesleedavis1

Off course an untrained dog may protect you. It depends on the dog though. My Tyson is not protecting anything because he's not got confidence and he's a nervous wreck, looks good though  and I don't think any mugger looking for a quick snatch n grab is going to approach the girl with the menacing looking GSD. Too many people have untrained dogs they depend on for some sort of protection, lots of breeds including the GSD are geared to be naturally protective (upon many other wonderful qualities) doesn't mean all of them are but not all of them are going to sit back and not take action either.


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## SuperG

Lykoz,

The other flaw of the second video besides the untrained dogs not being hers is it is an advertisement....they would have "fired" the untrained dogs if they would have shown any protection.

Yes, can't disagree with the notion that all too many think this "protection" ability of any dog is simply innate. No doubt many dogs can be trained for the task but I'm of the opinion they don't come out of the box as a natural protector.

Obviously, the simple presence of a formidable breed such as a GSD does carry some weight as a deterrent, thugs generally target the weakest hence someone with a GSD by their side is not a criminal's first choice.

SuperG


----------



## Lykoz

SuperG said:


> Lykoz,
> 
> The other flaw of the second video besides the untrained dogs not being hers is it is an advertisement....they would have "fired" the untrained dogs if they would have shown any protection.
> 
> Yes, can't disagree with the notion that all too many think this "protection" ability of any dog is simply innate. No doubt many dogs can be trained for the task but I'm of the opinion they don't come out of the box as a natural protector.
> 
> Obviously, the simple presence of a formidable breed such as a GSD does carry some weight as a deterrent, thugs generally target the weakest hence someone with a GSD by their side is not a criminal's first choice.
> 
> SuperG


I agree with what you say.
dont think the first video is a manufactured commercial. It was a study by the little girl.
I trust kids a bit better when it comes to these things.
Could be wrong. But I dont think she fluffed or fired dogs.

That is how I certainly expected an untrained dog to react.

Also on protection... Yes they offer protection. Maybe I am being too harsh.
But as I said before, its more of an illusion of protection.
I dont think the OP was referring to the idea of attackers being intimidated by dogs, and not 'going for it'..

They wont fight for you when pressed in most cases.
Some will. But very few.


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## Baillif

They're out there. They're very rare but there are dogs out there that will enter a fight under pressure and press even without formal training. There are people who accidentally train a dog for situations like that without realizing it.

If some of you saw me doing a puppy or young dog bitework agitation session you'd be like holy crap that's how I/my neighbor/my friend/ my relative walk my dog down the street and it sees a stranger. Some dogs just like to fight. I've seen some bad ass protection dog candidates end up in clueless pet homes and get at home accidental bitework sessions.


----------



## Lilie

llombardo said:


> I'm so sorry you went through that and I'm happy that your dog protected you.
> 
> If they are loyal to you I feel they will protect you. Part of being a GSD is to do anything for their owner, including die for them if necessary.
> 
> Give me real life situations over stupid set up videos anyday.


I agree. I do think a person is foolish if they rely on their dog for their sole protection. As an adult, I protect my dogs.


----------



## SuperG

Lykoz said:


> I agree with what you say.
> dont think the first video is a manufactured commercial. It was a study by the little girl.
> I trust kids a bit better when it comes to these things.
> Could be wrong. But I dont think she fluffed or fired dogs.
> 
> That is how I certainly expected an untrained dog to react.
> 
> Also on protection... Yes they offer protection. Maybe I am being too harsh.
> But as I said before, its more of an illusion of protection.
> I dont think the OP was referring to the idea of attackers being intimidated by dogs, and not 'going for it'..
> 
> They wont fight for you when pressed in most cases.
> Some will. But very few.


The first video is the WH footage ....the second video is an advertisement for Bobs Dogs...and if you go to their site...the little girl is there as well.

Bob's Dogs

SuperG


----------



## Lykoz

SuperG said:


> The first video is the WH footage ....the second video is an advertisement for Bobs Dogs...and if you go to their site...the little girl is there as well.
> 
> Bob's Dogs
> 
> SuperG


Ok here is another one:


----------



## martemchik

Lykoz said:


> This is why police work so hard in training the dogs they use.
> Even ipo/schh work is not indicative of real fight drive...
> 
> I like west German lines because they are bred for prey drive and play... Even the ipo cert dogs.. It's a game to them, and many would buckle under real pressure. For me personally I like that it's a game and a sport, which is why I respect those lines.
> 
> The dogs with real fight drive are not the ones most people own.
> 
> Now is any dog good protection? I believe that.. But will an untrained dog fight to protect you? Maybe.... But very unlikely.


How many west German dogs have you seen work? In either Schutzhund or in real protection work? How many training sessions have you attended? Do you train your own west German lines in protection? Do they think that it's all prey and that its play? I'm sorry that your dogs believe its a game, seems like a training issue more than a genetics issue.

I'd love for someone to tell my bitch and her siblings (who are 100% west German WL and are actively being trained in protection) that it's a game. I'd love for someone to come up to me and threaten me when I have her with me. She'd have some fun playing a game.

So many assumptions based on so little real life experience...


----------



## Lilie

Lykoz said:


> *None of you were actually assaulted*... Because if the dog fought the assailant and the assailant protected and stood his ground the dog would cry and run in most cases.
> 
> *I don't get how you people can be so naive to think that all the selection of dog and work done by people training police dogs to stand and fight an actual assailant is meaningless.* Why work to build the dogs confidence systemetically when YOUR DOGS ARE JUST BORN TO DO IT ALL!!!!


Hmmm..... Let me try to explain this in easy to understand terms. Oh, I know...pressure. The dogs that you are picturing in your little mind are dogs that do this day in and day out. It's their job. They are taught to do it and they do it well. And they enjoy it. 

The dogs that us naïve people have are (were) dogs that don't (didn't) live under that constant pressure. 

I'm sorry, I assumed that was pretty obvious to most folks.


----------



## Lykoz

martemchik said:


> How many west German dogs have you seen work? In either Schutzhund or in real protection work? How many training sessions have you attended? Do you train your own west German lines in protection? Do they think that it's all prey and that its play? I'm sorry that your dogs believe its a game, seems like a training issue more than a genetics issue.
> 
> I'd love for someone to tell my bitch and her siblings (who are 100% west German WL and are actively being trained in protection) that it's a game. I'd love for someone to come up to me and threaten me when I have her with me. She'd have some fun playing a game.
> 
> So many assumptions based on so little real life experience...


IPO does not put the required pressure on a dog to be fight proof.

They can perform perfectly well without fight drive.
That is basic knowledge.

I would love you to go to a police k9 dog training unit and tell them your dog can do the work their dogs do.
Is your dog even IPO certified that you think its that easy?
Have bullets been fired whilst you train your dogs? Do they need to be?

Sport - Real life: Two different things.

Not saying IPO dogs cant...
But German Show lines are not bred specifically to fight real assailants.


----------



## martemchik

Lykoz said:


> IPO does not put the required pressure on a dog to be fight proof.
> 
> They can perform perfectly well without fight drive.
> That is basic knowledge.
> 
> I would love you to go to a police k9 dog training unit and tell them your dog can do the work their dogs do.


Again...what is your opinion about this based on? Have you witnessed IPO not put the required pressure on a dog to be fight proof? I'd love to know how many times you've personally witnessed a helper not put enough pressure on the dog. Also, what is enough pressure? And how much experience do you have putting said pressure on a dog, or witnessing police departments put pressure on their dogs?

You have seen videos of IPO trials correct? So that's what you're basing that on. Have you been to training sessions? Seen how and what people do in training? See what kinds of things people proof their dogs with?

Basic knowledge? From written articles? From YouTube videos? Nice basis of knowledge to be making statements like that.

And when you were talking about West German dogs you meant the show lines? They're bred to have tons of prey?!?!?! Wow. This is news to me. I think I need to read more articles, my knowledge base is way off. WGSL are prey monsters...this is enlightening.


----------



## GatorDog

Lykoz said:


> IPO does not put the required pressure on a dog to be fight proof.
> 
> They can perform perfectly well without fight drive.
> That is basic knowledge.
> 
> I would love you to go to a police k9 dog training unit and tell them your dog can do the work their dogs do.
> Is your dog even IPO certified that you think its that easy?
> Have bullets been fired whilst you train your dogs? Do they need to be?
> 
> Sport - Real life: Two different things.
> 
> Not saying IPO dogs cant...
> But German Show lines are not bred specifically to fight real assailants.


There are German show lines and German working lines. And there are plenty of West German working line dogs that are used for police work as well. My IPO trained and titled West German working line female has bitten hidden equipment and experienced similar training to that of police dogs. Blanket statements like yours are just constantly proving your lack of any real experience. If you think all police dogs are in it just for the fight and lack any use of working in prey, you're mistaken.


----------



## SuperG

I would never anticipate that my dog would protect me....never make it part of my plan...except for possibly using the dog as a quick diversion to tip the scales a bit more in my favor if I came into a dire situation. The unknown element of whether your dog will attack an assailant...in the assailant's mind... might just give one the "moment" to change the outcome.....a momentary distraction of sorts.


SuperG


----------



## martemchik

And now K9s have become bulletproof?!?! Wow. This is just amazing. How do those police departments make their dogs bulletproof? I'd love to know this new technology and science. Is this some specialized breeding program that breeds bulletproof dogs? They must be amazing. Why have I not heard of these dogs before?


----------



## Lykoz

GatorDog said:


> There are German show lines and German working lines. And there are plenty of West German working line dogs that are used for police work as well. My IPO trained and titled West German working line female has bitten hidden equipment and experienced similar training to that of police dogs. Blanket statements like yours are just constantly proving your lack of any real experience. If you think all police dogs are in it just for the fight and lack any use of working in prey, you're mistaken.


Yep... Absolutely correct.

German Show lines and German Working lines...
Not the same thing.

I said show lines, most times. If I made a typo at some point, and forgot to write it in full I am sorry.

I never say never. But people need to wake up, and realise for what and how their dogs are bred.
Not absorb the rubbish people around them push on them.


----------



## martemchik

Lykoz said:


> Yep... Absolutely correct.
> 
> German Show lines and German Working lines...
> Not the same thing.


And the show lines (that you have) are the prey monsters? They work in just prey? They all think its a game?


----------



## SuperG

martemchik said:


> And now K9s have become bulletproof?!?! Wow. This is just amazing. How do those police departments make their dogs bulletproof? I'd love to know this new technology and science. Is this some specialized breeding program that breeds bulletproof dogs? They must be amazing. Why have I not heard of these dogs before?


Because it's top double secret.....


SuperG


----------



## Lykoz

martemchik said:


> And now K9s have become bulletproof?!?! Wow. This is just amazing. How do those police departments make their dogs bulletproof? I'd love to know this new technology and science. Is this some specialized breeding program that breeds bulletproof dogs? They must be amazing. Why have I not heard of these dogs before?


Not shoot at the dog  :thumbsdown: :groovy: :rip: :halogsd:  :gonefishing:

Just the sound might put the dog off.
Surprised that confused you... lol.


----------



## martemchik

Lykoz said:


> Not shoot at the dog  :thumbsdown: :groovy: :rip: :halogsd:  :gonefishing:
> 
> Just the sound might put the dog off.
> Surprised that confused you... lol.


I wasn't. I'm just shocked that you assume that most dogs would be scared off by gun fire. Especially prey driven dogs. Prey driven dogs are less likely to stop fighting/biting when there are things going on around them. The more defensive dogs are the ones that tend to need more help to get through new situations. But you already knew this through your vast experience with training dogs in protection/sport/real K9 situations.

I guess that's why most police departments are going to Malanois...they're super low prey drive dogs.


----------



## Ace GSD

martemchik said:


> And now K9s have become bulletproof?!?! Wow. This is just amazing. How do those police departments make their dogs bulletproof? I'd love to know this new technology and science. Is this some specialized breeding program that breeds bulletproof dogs? They must be amazing. Why have I not heard of these dogs before?


My dog is not bullet proof and he doesn't need to be cause he can catch bullets with his teeth


----------



## Lykoz

martemchik said:


> I wasn't. I'm just shocked that you assume that most dogs would be scared off by gun fire. Especially prey driven dogs. Prey driven dogs are less likely to stop fighting/biting when there are things going on around them. The more defensive dogs are the ones that tend to need more help to get through new situations. But you already knew this through your vast experience with training dogs in protection/sport/real K9 situations.
> 
> I guess that's why most police departments are going to Malanois...they're super low prey drive dogs.


Dont put words in my mouth...

Did not say they did not have prey drive.
Grow up kid.
Get your first dog titled and then act like an experienced practitioner that knows it all, on everything dog.
My comments are adressed to pet owners. So if you want to add value... Explain the difference. And stop piggybacking on these personal attacks, just for the sake of it.


So I guess you think every persons' pet dog, or american line gsd has fight drive?
Is that why you chose to quote me on that one sentence?
Are you that naive? Or am i putting words in your mouth?

When I select a dog from a breeder, I try and have some knowledge of the traditional characteristics in those dogs lines.
I get one suited to my lifestyle and what I want it for.
I dont assume it is bred in a different way than they really are.
I dont assume they have an inherent pre-disposition to act in a way they were not bred for.


----------



## SuperG

Ace GSD said:


> My dog is not bullet proof and he doesn't need to be cause he can catch bullets with his teeth


Ninja dog....nice !

SuperG


----------



## mycobraracr

martemchik said:


> I wasn't. I'm just shocked that you assume that most dogs would be scared off by gun fire. Especially prey driven dogs. Prey driven dogs are less likely to stop fighting/biting when there are things going on around them. The more defensive dogs are the ones that tend to need more help to get through new situations. But you already knew this through your vast experience with training dogs in protection/sport/real K9 situations.
> 
> I guess that's why most police departments are going to Malanois...they're super low prey drive dogs.



:thumbup: People don't realize there are many aspects to prey drive. It's not just chasing. It's also catching, fighting, killing and so on. Don't get me wrong, I think a balance in the GSD is what's needed, but decoy some trials(not directed at you Max) and you'll see that a purely defensive dog is the first one ran off the field.


----------



## Ace GSD

SuperG said:


> Ninja dog....nice !
> 
> SuperG


Yess ! $5000 stud fee if you interested :happyboogie:


----------



## martemchik

Lykoz...you made the statement that West German dogs are all prey and play. How is that for pet people? You're discussing actual protection work. You're making blanket statements about a line of dogs. I'm trying to figure out where you found out this information and why you feel the need to spread it.

I'm not talking about the part where "pet dog protects me." I don't care about that. You can go back some pages and see that I know for a fact most dogs won't protect their handlers. But it has nothing to do with prey or defense drive. It has to do with the dog and the training it has received.


----------



## martemchik

mycobraracr said:


> :thumbup: People don't realize there are many aspects to prey drive. It's not just chasing. It's also catching, fighting, killing and so on. Don't get me wrong, I think a balance in the GSD is what's needed, but decoy some trials(not directed at you Max) and you'll see that a purely defensive dog is the first one ran off the field.


For sure!

I have 2 dogs. One is definitely balanced towards prey, the other is balanced towards defense. The differences in how they work are pretty cool and extremely fun to handle the two of them because of how different they are. I can also tell you which dog is more prone to come off the sleeve if the situation changes and which dog I'd be more worried about running (not that I am as the defensive dog has plenty of prey).

It's also really fun knowing that the dog that is more likely (still not likely) to run, is also the dog that would bite you sleeve or no sleeve.

The lack of understanding of prey/defense/fight drive when people haven't actually seen it in action is really unfortunate, and the spreading of those thoughts and ideas needs to be called out and stopped.


----------



## Lykoz

martemchik said:


> Lykoz...you made the statement that West German dogs are all prey and play. How is that for pet people? You're discussing actual protection work. You're making blanket statements about a line of dogs. I'm trying to figure out where you found out this information and why you feel the need to spread it.
> 
> I'm not talking about the part where "pet dog protects me." I don't care about that. You can go back some pages and see that I know for a fact most dogs won't protect their handlers. But it has nothing to do with prey or defense drive. It has to do with the dog and the training it has received.


Your comments have nothing to do with the topic.

You spotted a single typo not separating WGWL and WGSL.
That line was not even a major part of any argument I made.

So yes sorry for clustering both together.
I wrote that in a very large comment.

Its easy to snipe a mistake I made.
Does not change the arguement I am making.

You are so commited to attacking me in every thread each time I make the slightest error, that again you are missing that you agree with the points I am making with regards to untrained pet dogs, from just any line or breed, will not protect their owners in most cases under pressure.

So since you have more experience on working lines, take over and explain the differences, instead of attacking me on that one small detail I left out.

You know more on that aspect? Fine...
So then explain the difference.

Focus on the thread. You know the general consensus of what I am saying, you agree with.

Out of all the long comments I wrote, you sniped a small paragraph, because we simply don't get along.
You are the one that has changed this to a working line discussion.

I was pointing out, that non, real working dogs are not ideal candidates to protect their owners under real pressure. It is more rare than 'common'.
I know you agree with that.


----------



## SuperG

Ace GSD said:


> Yess ! $5000 stud fee if you interested :happyboogie:



Hmmmmm...crane style or tiger?

I prefer tiger as my bitch's pedigree is long on dragon style. She's able to..in one quick deft move..slip the prong off her neck, put it on my neck and be 15 feet up in the nearest tree in the blink of an eye. 


SuperG


----------



## martemchik

Lykoz, the part about an untrained dog protecting people doesn't need to be discussed further. This is how these threads go...most of us will tell people that the dogs are unlikely to protect you, and then a small few people will come on and tell their life experience where the dog has. Then people argue. But your incorrect facts and statements need to be corrected.

I'm sorry that upsets you, but that's how we learn. We get corrected. I've been corrected plenty of times on the ideas/opinions I've gained from this forum, from the internet, and just reading things and not quite understanding them. It doesn't upset me, it's how learning happens.

When you make statements like "West German dogs are all prey and think is play," someone new might see that and think that you know what you're talking about. Without someone to correct that statement, they might take that statement as fact. So now they have done research and learned the wrong thing. Sorry that it makes you mad that I'm the one that constantly corrects you, but stop making statements that are wrong and then I won't have to.


----------



## Baillif

I was going to say something similar to what martem finally did, but decided against it because it's a fight that happens over and over without people ever resolving it because it's one of the least understood aspects of dog behavior. 

I'll just say this. When wolves or lions or any predator decides to stick it out and go after dangerous prey it's because prey drive involves a measure of aggression. What level of aggression that is depends on the organism and the genetics of the organism not just the training involved. Nobody trains a mongoose to fight a cobra or the honey badger to fight the cobra or whatever. It isn't oh I'm on defense I'm afraid for my life it's I wanna catch you kill you and eat you and drag your carcass off somewhere.

That's prey drive. The hardest bites the best grips the hardest hits the most devastating attacks all occur in prey. There are of course varying degrees of fight and aggression mixed into this drive that determine what it end product of the attack looks like. Training of course plays a factor too.


----------



## Lykoz

martemchik said:


> Lykoz, the part about an untrained dog protecting people doesn't need to be discussed further. But your incorrect facts and statements need to be corrected.
> 
> I'm sorry that upsets you, but that's how we learn. We get corrected. I've been corrected plenty of times on the ideas/opinions I've gained from this forum, from the internet, and just reading things and not quite understanding them. It doesn't upset me, it's how learning happens.
> 
> When you make statements like "West German dogs are all prey and think is play," someone new might see that and think that you know what you're talking about. Without someone to correct that statement, they might take that statement as fact. So now they have done research and learned the wrong thing. Sorry that it makes you mad that I'm the one that constantly corrects you, but stop making statements that are wrong and then I won't have to.


Thing is I knew the difference.

I just did not realise immediately thats what you were referring to.
It was sooo out of scope of the point I was making in this thread.

Also no it is not discussed enough.
As you can see the stats are 77% say an untrained dog will protect the handler under pressure.

Do you 
A) Think that is realistic?
B) Think even 1/5th of those 77% even own working lines?
C) Even those that do... Does not mean they will fight for their owners, especially untrained.

You know that.
The people commenting on this post are so far confused, they would not even pick up that typo I made, or identify the point I was making.

But yes, it needed to be corrected.
You could have done that without arguing and being offensive.
You could of mentioned that WGSL and WGWL is not the same, we would have agreed, and things would have moved forward.

As for the differentiation of drives, start a new thread to discuss that.
I could learn more about it. Professionals often dont agree on the many definitions.
It is what it is. I cant make a point without generalising a bit.
If some of those generalisations may not be 100% accurate fine, but it does not deviate the point I am making about pet dogs protecting their owners in a time of assault under pressure.

Fight drive as far as I am concerned, I was referring for the ability for the dog to continue fighting under pressure and not back down.
Sorry you trade marked that term, in your use and idea of it.

Simply put, many sport dogs and most pets don't have enough fight drive to protect an individual from a committed attacker.


----------



## martemchik

Yup, the discussion on how prey/defense work in a dog (or any animal) is way too complicated for the internet. It’s also way too hard without seeing examples and being able to explain it when it’s actually happening. Most times, people will talk in extremes (100% prey or 100% defense) because that’s the easiest thing to do in order to explain it to people that have never seen it, but that rarely happens. On top of that, there are so many little things that occur within a “protection scenario” that cannot be accounted for in text. It’s also stupid to make sweeping assumptions and generalizations.


----------



## Nigel

mycobraracr said:


> :thumbup: People don't realize there are many aspects to prey drive. It's not just chasing. It's also catching, fighting, killing and so on. Don't get me wrong, I think a balance in the GSD is what's needed, but decoy some trials(not directed at you Max) and you'll see that a purely defensive dog is the first one ran off the field.


Can you see some of these differences using a flirt pole? ie dogs who'll catch the toy to posses or quickly ready for another chase vs those who attempt to kill when caught?


----------



## martemchik

Dude, people will believe whatever they want to believe. Why do you care? I haven't even voted, so clearly my vote isn't there.

Trust me, nothing you tell people will change their opinion on if their pet will defend them. Go back through all the pages, it's been discussed at length. Myself, mycobra, baliff, others, have given truthful, factual, real explanations on why this is not something a handler should expect from their pet, yet people still believe that their dog will protect them. Who cares? Most of these people will never be in a situation where their dog needs to do something. Let them think what they want to think.

If you believe that your explanation will change their minds over the explanations that were given earlier...especially when you start bashing IPO trained dogs and telling people that those dogs don't do real protection (when you have ZERO experience with that training)...then I think you're just really confused and just like to hear yourself talk.


----------



## Lykoz

martemchik said:


> Dude, people will believe whatever they want to believe. Why do you care? I haven't even voted, so clearly my vote isn't there.
> 
> Trust me, nothing you tell people will change their opinion on if their pet will defend them. Go back through all the pages, it's been discussed at length. Myself, mycobra, baliff, others, have given truthful, factual, real explanations on why this is not something a handler should expect from their pet, yet people still believe that their dog will protect them. Who cares? Most of these people will never be in a situation where their dog needs to do something. Let them think what they want to think.
> 
> If you believe that your explanation will change their minds over the explanations that were given earlier...especially when you start bashing IPO trained dogs and telling people that those dogs don't do real protection (when you have ZERO experience with that training)...then I think you're just really confused and just like to hear yourself talk.


Rubbish. 

You have a need to correct me, but nobody else?
Thing is I am one of those pet dog population guys.

If anything me admitting it might mean more to some, than somebody on the other side of the fence acting superior.
Im not here to fight with the working dog people. Or pet dog people. But the truth is the truth. This is a forum. Ideas can be exchanged, and a correct consensus brought forward.
I agree with what the Working dog people are saying on this topic. If I am misrepresenting add to the argument.
I am first to back down when I think I made a mistake. A quality you unfortunately dont share. Ego.. Leave it at the door.

Its almost like the Working Line people are on one side of the forum, the rest are on the other, and their discussions never intersect.
Its become a state of peace, because each person has a section to comment on, and they just avoid each other.

This is ridiculous for truthful comments.
Why cant I speak, interact with the other side? There are some things the Working dog people do that I am not prepared to do with my pet dogs, however their knowledge and interacting with them is invaluable. I am growing and learning by speaking like everyone else. Being corrected is good. (Not that I made a huge error, mostly a typo)
Am I not allowed to say anything about the other side, without getting attacked?
Why not just add value and explain it...

The WL people have given up on the pet people. 
I draw some attention, because I do have some basic knowledge on the other side. 
I say basic... And if I overstep the guns come out blazing.

But its ussually blazing guns from the not very experienced working line people. Except Castle (Experienced Police dog trainer), whenever I quote leerburg... He throws a temper tantrum.
But by now most people know I respect leerburg, and that a lot of my information is influenced by their way of doing things.
You don't have to like Leerburg. I respect them.


----------



## Baillif

Castle feels the way he feels for a reason.


----------



## martemchik

Like I said...the idea of "my pet will protect me" has been corrected plenty of times before. It's not worth my time to argue with someone that HAS had their dog protect them 30 years ago, and explain to them why they shouldn't expect their current dog to do the same. ESPECIALLY when I've never met the dog in person. Trust me, there are plenty of dogs WL and SL out there that would protect their owners. I'm not about to sit here on the internet and tell people that their dogs won't do something when I've never met their dogs. Would I put my life in the jaws/paws of an untrained dog if I truly needed protection? Absolutely not. Would I rather have a dog trained in some sort of protection, even if its sport? Of course. But that's been said plenty of times before.

This has nothing to do with WL or SL. It has to do with ME never meeting THEIR dog. To make the sweeping statement that if your dog is SL it won't protect you, is stupid. I train with SL that would definitely spit the sleeve and bite the helper. They'd definitely take a live bite if the opportunity presented itself. To tell anyone their dog won't do this or that, without actually meeting the dog, just based off of some over arching line their dog might or not be is really stupid.

Something you learn when you've trained more than your own dogs...you don't make any judgments until you've seen the dog and laid your own hands on the dog.


----------



## Lykoz

Baillif said:


> Castle feels the way he feels for a reason.


Stating the obvious.

Some people feel the same way about Castle.
Have a look around the working dog forum.

Anyways, constant attacks on anything is no good.
Leerburg has its merits. People like Michael Ellis would not have a working relationship with him otherwise.

Contrary to popular belief, I respect castle for what he is as a police dog trainer.
I dont respect the way he acts on that matter of Leerburg.

Anyways don't want to discuss another member.
He obviously has a wealth of knowledge. I just like other systems personally for training my pet dogs.


----------



## Kodakp

I don't want to butt in but this is what I truly believe. My Great Dane attacked a man trying to hurt me. She went after his neck and wouldn't stop going for him until I called her back. Great Danes are very loving and not bred to protect but put a loyal dogs owner under attack and bam instinct maybe takes over. Not sure og GSD since mine is a wgsl and I just got him but he did chase and kill a bird. Not sure what he will be like.


----------



## Lykoz

martemchik said:


> Like I said...the idea of "my pet will protect me" has been corrected plenty of times before. It's not worth my time to argue with someone that HAS had their dog protect them 30 years ago, and explain to them why they shouldn't expect their current dog to do the same. ESPECIALLY when I've never met the dog in person. Trust me, there are plenty of dogs WL and SL out there that would protect their owners. I'm not about to sit here on the internet and tell people that their dogs won't do something when I've never met their dogs. Would I put my life in the jaws/paws of an untrained dog if I truly needed protection? Absolutely not. Would I rather have a dog trained in some sort of protection, even if its sport? Of course. But that's been said plenty of times before.
> 
> This has nothing to do with WL or SL. It has to do with ME never meeting THEIR dog. To make the sweeping statement that if your dog is SL it won't protect you, is stupid. I train with SL that would definitely spit the sleeve and bite the helper. They'd definitely take a live bite if the opportunity presented itself. To tell anyone their dog won't do this or that, without actually meeting the dog, just based off of some over arching line their dog might or not be is really stupid.
> 
> Something you learn when you've trained more than your own dogs...you don't make any judgments until you've seen the dog and laid your own hands on the dog.


We are talking untrained dogs, not bred to work under pressure here. The dogs you experienced are obviously doing Bite work!

77% is a ridiculous number.

In fact if I worked with a helper, Im pretty sure my dog would get an ok grip on the sleeve on command after a single session.
I work tug all the time, and he goes insane trying to get the tug. I can spin him 360 on his tug toy.

That still does not mean my pet house dog can ever associate the sleeve with my tug toys without ever working it. Add pressure. Add all the other things trained dogs do, and no he would not be able to handle.

An actual attacker, is a different class of protection.

I had two loose, Staffs attack my GSD before on a walk. Dog aggressive pet dogs. I was walking on their 'territory', somebody else's gate, that was left open. One solid kick in the ribs on one of those dogs, and it cried... And both of them ran away into the house, the one I kicked crying, tail down. And Staffs are bloody tough terriers. 

Thing was I was worried they would get a bite in, and I would not be able to seperate... So I did not hold back on that kick... That is real pressure on a dog.


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## martemchik

Lykoz said:


> We are talking untrained dogs, not bred to work under pressure here. The dogs you experienced are obviously doing Bite work!
> 
> 77% is a ridiculous number.
> 
> In fact if I worked with a helper, Im pretty sure my dog would get an ok grip on the sleeve on command after a single session.
> I work tug all the time, and he goes insane trying to get the tug. I can spin him 360 on his tug toy.
> 
> That still does not mean my pet house dog can ever associate the sleeve with my tug toys without ever working it. Add pressure. Add all the other things trained dogs do, and no he would not be able to handle.
> 
> An actual attacker, is a different class of protection.
> 
> I had two loose, Staffs attack my GSD before on a walk. Dog aggressive pet dogs. One solid kick in the ribs on one of those dogs, and it cried... And both of them ran away, the one I kicked crying, tail down. And Staffs are bloody tough terriers.


 You speak of things you have no experience about. Pressure? Your dog could bite a sleeve because it bites a tug? Tugging with YOU...a person the dog has grown up with and trusts 100% is nothing like biting a sleeve on a strange person. Even without any pressure put on your dog...that person is an unknown, your dog isn't used to it. You bad mouth all these other people's dogs and yet your dog would easily get a grip after one session? Take a look in the mirror.

I've dealt with plenty of ASL dogs. Truthfully...the only dogs I've ever been worried would bite me (for no reason).

You've already shown me your propensity for wanting to fight dogs. No need to prove how big of a man you are because you beat up on dogs. I should post that private message you sent me challenging my dog to a fight. I'm sure these people would love to see it.


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## Lykoz

martemchik said:


> You speak of things you have no experience about. Pressure? Your dog could bite a sleeve because it bites a tug? Tugging with YOU...a person the dog has grown up with and trusts 100% is nothing like biting a sleeve on a strange person. Even without any pressure put on your dog...that person is an unknown, your dog isn't used to it. You bad mouth all these other people's dogs and yet your dog would easily get a grip after one session? Take a look in the mirror.
> 
> I've dealt with plenty of ASL dogs. Truthfully...the only dogs I've ever been worried would bite me (for no reason).
> 
> You've already shown me your propensity for wanting to fight dogs. No need to prove how big of a man you are because you beat up on dogs. I should post that private message you sent me challenging my dog to a fight. I'm sure these people would love to see it.


My dog was attacked by two dogs, of dangerous breed. My dog on leash. Completely warranted. I was protecting my dogs. Some other people on the forum, might have shot the dogs. I know what those type of dogs, getting a good grip can do, and how hard they are to separate. And there were two.

The full conversation that led to me losing my temper in the private message made sense.
You were claiming that your dog is John J Rambo, without even a basic IPO Cert. I am not delusional about what my dogs can or cant do. That is the difference between me and you.

And yes. Your dog probably, would not have a chance against me, if we actually went head to head. Without me wearing protection.
You are not what you claim to be.

I could be wrong about the sleeve... But I have tested my dog 'attacking' the tug with a stranger holding it. 
He goes for it with veracity. Its his favourite thing.

Obviously its a game to him and not real. Which is the point I was making earlier.


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## martemchik

So when you lose your temper you resort to violence? I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you never lose your temper with your dogs and beat them into submission. But I'm sure that's already happened. I'm also sorry for any family members that try to have a civilized discussion with you, I guess you just start threatening them with violence and end the discussion right then.

Man its fun making ridiculous assumptions...

BTW...I can say with 99% certainty, that if your dog did any kind of IPO training, the moment there was a sleeve and pressure, you'd see how serious your dog would get. I can almost guarantee your dog would work mostly in defense. You've raised it to work in prey, but when it would be asked to deal with a more real situation, it will resort to the drive it's most comfortable with, which in 99% of WGSL dogs is defense.


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## Lykoz

martemchik said:


> So when you lose your temper you resort to violence? I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you never lose your temper with your dogs and beat them into submission. But I'm sure that's already happened. I'm also sorry for any family members that try to have a civilized discussion with you, I guess you just start threatening them with violence and end the discussion right then.
> 
> Man its fun making ridiculous assumptions...
> 
> BTW...I can say with 99% certainty, that if your dog did any kind of IPO training, the moment there was a sleeve and pressure, you'd see how serious your dog would get. I can almost guarantee your dog would work mostly in defense. You've raised it to work in prey, but when it would be asked to deal with a more real situation, it will resort to the drive it's most comfortable with, which in 99% of WGSL dogs is defense.



Just said I thought it would get a bite on command... Did not claim anything more.
It would attack the 'toy sleeve'... Not the person.


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## gsdsar

It depends on what you consider "protect". 

If I am walking down a dark road and a man jumps out and grabs me, and my dog barks and lunges and makes contact, giving me time to get away and be safe. Then that is protecting me. Because of my dog, I am safe. 

If you are talking about engaging in a protracted physical fight with a determined assailant. Then I agree, most untrained dogs will not stay engaged. 

But it does not have to be a prolonged physical fight to be called protection. At least not in my book. If my dog reacts in a way that allows me to get to safety. Then that has protected me.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Yep. Not sure if I already responded to this but Sailor totally would have protected me. Not only would he have alerted,if I gave him an attack command and let go of the leash, he would have flown in the air grabbing the other persons arm. I'm pretty sure he would have. Sailor was really tough when strangers would come around. This is why after having an accident with him, I realized what kind of dog I had on my hands, and took extra precaution to keep him and other people safe the rest of his life. I believe he did have some training though so not totally sure if he is untrained. Maybe his previous owners did some advanced training with him? 

Captain? Haha don't make me laugh! He is the biggest BIGGEST woosy! He is all bark and no bite. *sigh* sailor would be so disappointed lol! Captain is like having a golden retriever. He cares more about playing and swimming than guarding me or the house. #EPICFAIL I love him anyway. Maybe later down the road a second dog will be in the cards for us? My husband has always wanted a Dutch shepherd... Hmmm...


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## Anubis_Star

Nope. And i don't 99% of dogs would protect their owner. And I think people are very naive and potentially putting themselves in danger if they think otherwise.

I had 2 german shepherds - zeke my older boy acted very protective, would bark etc. He was 6 at the time. And my younger boy berlin, working line, training in ipo, was about 16-18 months.

At 2 am when I foolishly stopped on the highway to see if a stalled car needed help, they both let a complete stranger get into my car. I was terrified, thought he was going to kill me. He ended up just being very drunk. But the dogs didn't do a single thing. I was screaming, I was hysterical. If they didn't sense fear from me, then I don't know what else to say.

Just because your dog barks and acts tough, doesn't mean anything when it comes down to it. When push comes to shove, most dogs will chose flight over fight

I had just been telling my coworker that night how I thought I might rely too much on my dogs to scare intruders away. That is why I think it's dangerous to truly believe your dog will protect you


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## Nigel

gsdsar said:


> It depends on what you consider "protect".
> 
> If I am walking down a dark road and a man jumps out and grabs me, and my dog barks and lunges and makes contact, giving me time to get away and be safe. Then that is protecting me. Because of my dog, I am safe.
> 
> If you are talking about engaging in a protracted physical fight with a determined assailant. Then I agree, most untrained dogs will not stay engaged.
> 
> But it does not have to be a prolonged physical fight to be called protection. At least not in my book. If my dog reacts in a way that allows me to get to safety. Then that has protected me.


I agree! i can think of 3 instances (wife) where similar scenarios have played out and our dogs reaction had kept her safe, only one incident had actual engagement and it was brief, but enough. They don't have to get into an all out brawl to help out.


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## newlie

Like most GSD's, my Newlie is a deterrent just because of his breed and appearance. I think he would do the best he could to protect me, but the main thing I want is for him to buy me time to get to a weapon. Then, we would (hopefully) be fighting together.

It doesn't seem to me that most videos give an accurate impression simply because the actors are not really scared. When people are terrified, I am sure they emit certain chemical odors which may make a dog react way differently than life on a normal day.


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## Lilie

Anubis_Star said:


> Nope. And i don't 99% of dogs would protect their owner. And I think people are very naive and potentially putting themselves in danger if they think otherwise.


You believe that 99% of dogs wouldn't protect their owners, based on your experience. Yet, folks who believe that SOME dogs would protect them based on THEIR experiences are considered naïve. 

I don't think anybody believes that their dog would take down a thug, roll around the ground Lassie style before taking out the thug's jugular. 

I think ANYBODY who depends on their dog for protection is putting themselves in danger. I don't care if the dog is trained or not.


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## Anubis_Star

Lilie said:


> You believe that 99% of dogs wouldn't protect their owners, based on your experience. Yet, folks who believe that SOME dogs would protect them based on THEIR experiences are considered naïve.
> 
> I don't think anybody believes that their dog would take down a thug, roll around the ground Lassie style before taking out the thug's jugular.
> 
> I think ANYBODY who depends on their dog for protection is putting themselves in danger. I don't care if the dog is trained or not.


I guess it also depends on one's definition of "protect". your dog barking and detering someone? sure I believe most german shepherds are capable of that.

But say someone full on attacks you, do I expect most dogs to engage and fight off an attacker? No, I don't think most dogs would do it. I mean, just think about how many ipo dogs can be run off the decoy if enough pressure is put on them. The average family dog? Without training to show them that they can win? No, I don't believe for one second. And I never did. My experience just really helped dig that home


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## charger

You Can't Fix Stupid: German Shepherd Fights Off Burglar
A bite out of crime: Dog attacks burglar | Local - Home
Congo, The German Shepherd May Die Tomorrow – UPDATES & PETITION - For the Love of the Dog

Older stories but relevant to this thread. It would depend on the dog.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

newlie said:


> Like most GSD's, my Newlie is a deterrent just because of his breed and appearance. I think he would do the best he could to protect me, but the main thing I want is for him to buy me time to get to a weapon. Then, we would (hopefully) be fighting together.
> 
> It doesn't seem to me that most videos give an accurate impression simply because the actors are not really scared. When people are terrified, I am sure they emit certain chemical odors which may make a dog react way differently than life on a normal day.


This is exactly my sentiment. I think sailor WOULD have engaged an attacker. Captain in the other hand, I doubt it, but like you said, just his breed and size, and maybe some barking would be enough (hopefully) to distract the robber for a few seconds while I grab my handgun. Or any projectile I can throw. Lol.


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## Blitzkrieg1

There are two types of PPDs that I observe and have owned.

Ones that are super social, happy, like to bite, sporty etc. 
Many Mals fall in this category. 

These dogs can be trained to bite on command and can happily switch from being social or relaxing to an abrupt attack/bite once conditioned with training and repitition.
These dogs are like guns, maybe not so useful on their own, some can even be stolen, but when in the vicinity of a handler very effective.

Then there are those dogs that have it naturally.
Naturally terratorial, suspicious, they can discern the person or action that is out of place or innapropriate to the environment and will often respond with aggression.
These dogs often have low defensive thresholds, prey and sociability is variable (not necessarily high or low), nerve often variable as well but sufficent to get the job done against most would be attackers. 

These dogs can preform the duty untrained but with training will be even more effective. 

What I percieve often happens with the stories of someones pet defending them is the dog usually has insufficient nerve for such work, yet is pushed into defence by the unexpected aggression towards their person. They respond in defense and are empowered when the attacker not understanding that he is witnessing a fear reaction shows avoidance or flight thus empowering the dog to bite or chase the bad guy away.

Not an ideal PPD, cannot be relied upon to react consistently and if pushed will run. Unless its reliable and available its about as useful as a revolver with one round in one of its chambers. Maybe it will save you or maybe it will just..."click".


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## Slamdunc

I'm not sure I would agree about what a good Malinois offers. But, I do agree with you about what happens when people think their pet dog is actually defending them. It usually is close to how you describe it. Most any dog will bite a scared person or some one that runs. Just ask your mailman what he thinks. 

Lets not get into "sport" training or "sporty" dogs and "type 1 and type 2" dogs.


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## royals17

Well, I think that it would depend on the dog. My dog, yes. Others? I don't know...


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## llombardo

I'm getting ready to paint and as I was looking at the walls and this thread came to mind. You ask why? Apparently someone must have been by my window that shouldn't have been there because Midnite shredded the wall, he had to be pretty agitated to do this damage. How does that have anything to do with protection you ask? My house wasn't robbed and he did his job, protected the house. I don't ask for anything more then that. I have three solid deterrents. I see more of an attitude in Apollo then the other two. 

I don't know what they would do in a situation where I was under attack, I haven't been able to find anyone that would test that at their own risk. I have no doubt that Midnite would protect the kids, he watches them like a hawk and doesn't leave their side. Me? Maybe or maybe not. Robyn has rounded the corner with teeth bared running at my son(she didn't know it was him) standing in the dark with a hoodie on, he came home from college after a few months and we were surprising the dogs. She was just about on him when he spoke and took the hoodie off, she stopped immediately. I have no doubt she would have bit him, that was her intention as she ran at him. She had a half acre to run the other way, it was not fear. She was removing what she thought was a threat on her property. We won't be doing the surprise thing again, he about pooped his pants. 

The bottom line is that as long as other people "think" that GSDs are guard dogs or police dogs they aren't going to mess with them. They don't know and most likely don't want to find out. They know nothing else and that lack of knowledge benefits everyone that owns a GSD whether they will or won't protect. It's to big of a gamble. They have a mental picture of a vicious breed and I'm good with that


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## Hineni7

And a quick thought... If you are being attacked who cares if it is offensive or defensive based biting or growling or distraction! If it allows you the time to defend yourself (and your dog) or get away your dog helped and was protective... FEW people are in an offensive mindset when they are being attacked - they are defensive but it gets the job done(hopefully).. 

I have experiences where my dogs have seriously saved my bacon, be it defensive thought or offensive thought it worked and I am here thanks to (God) and them... But I will say this don't mess with my dogs or an evil momma bear will turn up and do some damage ;o)


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## llombardo

Hineni7 said:


> And a quick thought... If you are being attacked who cares if it is offensive or defensive based biting or growling or distraction! If it allows you the time to defend yourself (and your dog) or get away your dog helped and was protective... FEW people are in an offensive mindset when they are being attacked - they are defensive but it gets the job done(hopefully)..
> 
> I have experiences where my dogs have seriously saved my bacon, be it defensive thought or offensive thought it worked and I am here thanks to (God) and them... But I will say this don't mess with my dogs or an evil momma bear will turn up and do some damage ;o)


Agreed. I don't care how they do it, whether they bark, growl or circle. It will throw off someone that is attempting an attack. I don't think I could leave my dog behind and run. I think of it as a partnership. I got your back you got mine kinda thing


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## gsdsar

I agree as well. While I hope my dog will engage a true threat, I can't guarantee it. However, I recently had a situation like Lombardo. 

My neighbors tree came down in my back yard. The fence was fine, but the dang thing took up 1/2 my tiny townhouse yard. I talked to my neighbor and we agreed to get it out over the weekend. Thursday I get home and am chillin when I see someone come up to front front door. I quickly throw my dog outside. When I noticed the neighbor had taken care of the tree, but left some big parts behind. 

I went to the door to find my neighbor, he asked if I had seen they had gotten tree and apologized for leaving parts in my yard, " my son and I were scared to go into your yard because it looked like your dog was going to come through the door". I smiled and said " yeah, my make is very protective". 

So no, did he engage an attacking person?, nope. But he served his purpose. His presence kept a "stranger" from going into my yard. Right now that's good enough. 

I have always thought that if someone were crazy enough to enter my home with "crazy" GSD barking, then crazy GSD would not stop them anyway, a 9mm would be needed. They are a deterrent.


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## Hineni7

^^this is important, as what llombardos experience prove... Who knows how many times the dogs reaction to possible intruder stopped what could become the actual attack... Statistics, if follow through on the perpetrators part could be documented (even though it didn't occur due to the dogs intervention) might make the dog that much more valuable as you see rape, murder, theft was aborted due to the dog being offensive /defensive towards the danger... So protection is definitely subjective and interpretive to personal experience... A final thought... Most attackers aren't going to fight thru an aggressive acting dog, regardless of offensive /defensive mindset of the dog... Even if they kicked the dog and it broke off after a bite I doubt they are going to continue on in their planned attack as they have just been injured, or a loud commotion has occurred, or they don't know if the dog is coming back for another chomp fest...


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## Steve Strom

Slamdunc said:


> I'm not sure I would agree about what a good Malinois offers. But, I do agree with you about what happens when people think their pet dog is actually defending them. It usually is close to how you describe it. Most any dog will bite a scared person or some one that runs. Just ask your mailman what he thinks.
> 
> Lets not get into "sport" training or "sporty" dogs and "type 1 and type 2" dogs.


Hey Jim, have you ever seen that video from a few years ago, police dogs having to be trained not to bite their handlers in a fight? I was amazed how easy it was for the canine to switch teams when their handler started losing. I can't find it, it may have been taken down.


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## Muskeg

It depends on the individual dog and his lines. Most malinois I see and own are actually not overly social, or maybe selectively social is a better term - individuals with roughly the same genetics (siblings) vary with sociability- but as a general rule malinois do switch on instantly. And they do certainly enjoy biting for biting's sake. Some are more clear-headed than others in a fight.

I don't have a need for a PPD that would bite someone. I engage in bitework for sport only and try to keep it clear when and where this type of behavior is OK. 

Pretty much all anyone needs in a PPD is a "scary" looking bigger dog, control of that dog (dog isn't off sniffing the bushes or chasing a rabbit while you are being mugged), and bark at threat on command. If you are at the stage where a dog needs to engage in an active fight against someone, you have a bigger problem that a dog can't necessarily solve.

Very very few muggers/assaulters (bad guys) know the difference between a fear-aggressive dog, a reactive dog, and a serious dog. They just know a scary "police dog" is barking at them, and they'll generally leave that person, house, vehicle, etc. alone. I'd say in almost every case simply having a GSD with you is enough.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Oh I have seen some antisocial Mals, they tend to be that way because of nerve issues..jmo.
A dog that puts up a show but fails to engage is useless. Its an illusion that can implode at the worse instant and leave you in a world of hurt. 
The white house jumper is an excellent example of the type of threat a strong PPD can deal with. An individual in a crazed mind state that is not intimidated by barking dogs. They both engaged and the difference between nerve and lack thereof was made readily apparent. If you were relying on dog #1 to protect you in such a scenario you would have been in a bad place.


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## misslesleedavis1

Didn't one of the dogs engage while one of them turned around at the white house fence guy


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## llombardo

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Didn't one of the dogs engage while one of them turned around at the white house fence guy


I still think that was part of the operation.


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## misslesleedavis1

I barely got to watch it. Too blurry, I read more about what people thought regarding the dogs.


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## Slamdunc

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Jim, have you ever seen that video from a few years ago, police dogs having to be trained not to bite their handlers in a fight? I was amazed how easy it was for the canine to switch teams when their handler started losing. I can't find it, it may have been taken down.


Hey Steve,
Yes, I have experienced it and train for it with our unit. I have videos of dogs that engage the person on the bottom when deployed from the patrol car. I was told about this and never thought that my dog would do it to me. It is an eye opening experience. I have an excellent bond with my dog and no handler aggression issues, however this is a technique that requires training. I haven't seen a dog "switch" when the handler started to lose; but engage the handler if he was on the bottom when the dog was deployed after the fight started. I can post a video of my dog after training this with a muzzle several times, if you'd like to see it. 

As a general statement and not directed at anyone in particular, here is my feeling on whether an untrained dog will actually seriously defend you:

IMHO, it is really shortsighted to think that an "untrained" dog will have the nerve and ability to protect it's owner in a serious confrontation with a determined adversary that is not afraid of your dog. It is the rare, and I mean rare, like 1 in 1,000 that actually will. Because your dog barks, growls and bares it's teeth behind a fence or inside your house is not really enough to know that it will have the capacity, nerve, desire or ability to back it up when the fight becomes real. 

Sure most dogs, especially nervous, sharp, insecure dogs will bark, growl and even chase and bite a person that has turned their back or better is running away. Many dogs will put on a "big show" at the door or the window, but it is only a show. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases that is all that is really needed for a potential criminal to go an find an easier target to victimize. 

Hopefully, your dog barks and sounds an "alarm" giving you time to prepare and call the Police. Because, that is really all you can expect from an untrained dog. My dog has proven himself many times on the street, he's a very powerful, serious dog that has been in some serious situations on the street. I know how my dog will react, and I just want him to wake me up and give me a few seconds to get the sleep out of my eyes. Then I will go to work. I am not expecting my dog to fight my battles or do it by himself, after all he is only an 80 lb dog, not a 185 lb human. 

The truth of the matter is that most dogs can easily be defeated with a kong and a pocket knife. The untrained dogs would only need the kong.


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## Sabis mom

My 5lb Yorkie raised all holy **** when a break in was attempted. It was sufficient to make the would-be robbers pick a different house and the neighbors call the police. She effectively 'protected' the house.
Define protection. 
Shadow would raise enough of a ruckus to draw attention, and for a little girl she has a big bark. She would undoubtedly bite. Who she'd bite is up for grabs dependant on her level of stress, but without question she'd buy me precious time to react or escape.


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## Slamdunc

Sabis mom said:


> My 5lb Yorkie raised all holy **** when a break in was attempted. It was sufficient to make the would-be robbers pick a different house and the neighbors call the police. She effectively 'protected' the house.
> Define protection.
> Shadow would raise enough of a ruckus to draw attention, and for a little girl she has a big bark. She would undoubtedly bite. Who she'd bite is up for grabs dependant on her level of stress, but without question she'd buy me precious time to react or escape.



Buying you the time you need to react or escape is really what you need, that is a very good dog. You really can not expect much more from most dogs, especially an untrained dog, nor should anyone. Most dogs are like "mobile motion detectors" and should be a part of a good security plan, just like an alarm system. Just having a sign in your yard letting criminals know that you have an alarm system is often enough to have them pick your neighbors house over yours. 

I know that we all love our dogs and everyone one of us has the greatest dog ever, but we need to be realistic about our dogs capabilities. I find many folks incorrectly view their dog as a lion pacing through their house willing to rise to every challenge and physically confront the most determined attacker and win. It is just no the case for the vast majority of dogs, due to genetics, health, age, and training or lack of training. 

Even dogs with the best genetics work better and are more reliable with the proper training. Mike Tyson would never have been the Heavyweight Champ with out all of his training.


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## misslesleedavis1

Dexter our BC drove away a coyote once, he protected Andrew by taking a run at the angry little thing, we had a rescue dog with us that flushed her or him out if the woods. Anyways I ran like a child leaving andrew and his sprained ankle in the dust, shiggs and the rescue ran with me...if Andrew did not have brave little dex with him the coyote probably would have stuck to chasing andrew out of the territory. 
Oh and it is a very public place to go, several people have had encounters with the coyotes and now they have signs up everywhere


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## David Taggart

> how easy it was for the canine to switch teams when their handler started losing. I can't find it, it may have been taken down.


Those dogs, probably, weren't traned by one handler. I remember, in the club a dog turned onto his owner, when the decoy backed up, but the owner coninued encouraging his dog a silly way (I don't know why our instructor didn't correct him) he was combing his dog ' fur against the grain and slightly pushing him forward. At one moment dog turned back and started to bite him. It happened, that the owner wasn't an initial trainer, someone else trained the dog as well and more often. Of course, described situation is not similar to that video you mention, but it has a lot of common at the very core. For the same reason PP dogs for sale - would not be totally safe to the persons who intends to buy them even after a long period of living together. But I have met people, who really needed to have a PP dog, all of them said they need to protect theilives and have many reasons to think that their life is in constant dager . None of those I spoke had a family.


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## Sabis mom

Slamdunc said:


> Buying you the time you need to react or escape is really what you need, that is a very good dog. *You really can not expect much more from most dogs, especially an untrained dog, nor should anyone.* Most dogs are like "mobile motion detectors" and should be a part of a good security plan, just like an alarm system. Just having a sign in your yard letting criminals know that you have an alarm system is often enough to have them pick your neighbors house over yours.
> 
> I know that we all love our dogs and everyone one of us has the greatest dog ever, but we need to be realistic about our dogs capabilities. I find many folks incorrectly view their dog as a lion pacing through their house willing to rise to every challenge and physically confront the most determined attacker and win. It is just no the case for the vast majority of dogs, due to genetics, health, age, and training or lack of training.
> 
> Even dogs with the best genetics work better and are more reliable with the proper training. Mike Tyson would never have been the Heavyweight Champ with out all of his training.


 I owned a dog whose actual job it was to protect me, but outside of work when faced with any threat we ended up arguing over who was protecting who. 
The night I had to go out my bedroom window, I wanted her to go first and she was holding ground at the door. She won. I left, she followed.


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## Chai

Recently, I had just come back from a walk, fishing around for my keys at my door when I sensed someone behind me. The mail guy had seen me pull up, and thought he'd just hand my mail to me. He'd met Tchai before, played with him even. Happened in a split second, I made a little scream and jumped back, Tchai lunged forward and hit the poor guy square in the chest with his two front paws  Mail guy was knocked back, Tchai lunged again but I got him by the lead just in time. Was making the most gut-wrenching noise I've ever heard. What would he have done if I hadn't got the lead? Who knows. Probably just made a lot of noise. I think he was just acting out re-actively. Mail guy apologised profusely, admitting it was a really silly thing to do! :crazy:

I would not expect him to do any more, how can I? He hasn't been taught what to do. The odds of him having the correct guts (lineage) to really get into someone and engage is not in his favour, from what I can gather from the more experienced on here. I'm his protector, and giving me a barrier and/or enough time to react/get my pepper spray out is a lifesaver in itself. 

Buuuut, I'm starting martial arts classes soon  There's gonna be one small ninja and her GSD around here soon.


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## ILoveBella478

aceKeturah said:


> Recently, I had just come back from a walk, fishing around for my keys at my door when I sensed someone behind me. The mail guy had seen me pull up, and thought he'd just hand my mail to me. He'd met Tchai before, played with him even. Happened in a split second, I made a little scream and jumped back, Tchai lunged forward and hit the poor guy square in the chest with his two front paws
> 
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> Mail guy was knocked back, Tchai lunged again but I got him by the lead just in time. Was making the most gut-wrenching noise I've ever heard. What would he have done if I hadn't got the lead? Who knows. Probably just made a lot of noise. I think he was just acting out re-actively. Mail guy apologised profusely, admitting it was a really silly thing to do!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> I would not expect him to do any more, how can I? He hasn't been taught what to do. The odds of him having the correct guts (lineage) to really get into someone and engage is not in his favour, from what I can gather from the more experienced on here. I'm his protector, and giving me a barrier and/or enough time to react/get my pepper spray out is a lifesaver in itself.
> 
> Buuuut, I'm starting martial arts classes soon
> 
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> There's gonna be one small ninja and her GSD around here soon.


Just curious how old is he?


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Daisy and Lucky served as barriers ,deterrents and discouraged a few would be B&E artists from making it in. Chevy's barking was fierce and she was a definite deterrent. My remaining two are seniors and are retired. Lucky is hard of hearing and has mobility issues his job is to sleep ,eat and trot about as he feels. Thundy is almost deaf I think.
thunder also doesnt mind people in the house so she would probably invite the criminal in and point out the frig hoping for treats. Mine had no training but they alerted and served as deterrents.


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## Chai

ILoveBella478 said:


> Just curious how old is he?


He's 7.5 months. Do you think this was inappropriate behaviour for a young dog? Only time he's done anything like that...


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## zudnic

I believe they can be a warning system, but not a real defensive weapon. 

I was driving from Buffalo to Seattle. At about 2am I stopped at a rest area somewhere in North Dakota. The only other vehicle around was a truck driver. It was weird, he turned his truck on and then off again. My dog was on a long lead and he probably didn't see I had a dog. My other female was in the car. He slowly approached me, got about 10ft from and he says: "yeah buddy!" My dog leaped in the middle of us and was barking like crazy. I shortened the lead and she was lunging and barking at the guy. The guy turned slowly and went back to his truck. She was obedience trained, but had zero protection. She never went this crazy on anyone else, even when my Dad was almost mugged in a park. Gun on the hip stopped that one! 

Still to this day, have no clue why a truck driver wanted to come up to me at 2am in the middle of nowhere! Its still very strange. Now if he meant harm, I know my dog would have been useless in a fight. She did scare him off. That's good enough for me because I was in no mood to befriend a truck driver at 2am. Besides I'm pretty confident he wasn't after friendly chit chat. This incident made me aware it isn't a good idea to stop at rest areas alone and unarmed at 2am. I'm however glad my dog was a deterrent to a fight I wasn't really prepared to have. I.e. no gun. 

So I believe an untrained dog is a deterrent not protection!


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## reptilejason

Dogs are kinda like people. It's impossible to know if your average human, untrained in fighting, never been in a fight, will flee or fight in a confrontation. The same would go for a GSD I would think. Hopefully, that dog has never been struck, so who knows if it'll run or not. Also, does that dog know how to fight. Dogs learn to fight, hunt, etc from playing with other animals and watching their moms (atleast according to Animal Planet  A dog that was taken as a puppy and hung out on the couch with their family probably doesn't know what to do around other dogs in a fight, let alone engaging a person. 

Those are just my thoughts...


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## AussieGSD

I have no doubt mine would. He is an Aussie Shepherd, and GSD mix though. I did not think so before, but a couple weeks ago my husband's cousin came over at 5 am announced to "convince" hubs to go on a fishing trip. One of the kids let him in, and our GSD heard the commotion, came to investigate. Our dog had never met the guy before, and was ready to tear him to shreds. He had him cornered by the front door, and was blocking our kid from the "intruder". Thing is though the GSD had control, he wasn't a loose cannon. He had a stance that said make one move, even breathe and you will get bit, but you have to make the first move or I'm going to just give you this stink eye until mom comes. Our Bichon Frise though was actually trying to bite him, and did not really let off any warning before he went into attack mode. Neither of them have had any formal training. I have done basic verbal, and hand commands sit, stay, leave it, ect. 

I have more trust in my GSD saving me because of size, and overall powerful look but the Bichon Frise is the one more likely to actually act on it first that is unless they bride him with food lol


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## Phantom

I think that she would protect me if someone attacked me or a family member. I know from experience that she will turn into a scary monster if I feel uncomfortable about someone, but I do not know if she would do more than simply acting frightening. Either way, I would think most people wouldn't want to take the chance that she would attack.


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## Jenny720

Mine is still young pup but i would hAve to say yes at this stage it would be out of fear.


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## ILoveBella478

Bella would run when you get really close but she stands her grown for a while and make herself look scary she will bark and bark and snap until you get really close


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## misslesleedavis1

For the last month Shiggs has been ridiculously watchful of me, everytime a new dog comes up, she gets in between us and heads them off.
People are different though


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