# No prong collars allowed?



## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

I have been checking out some options for different training classes around here since Bruno has excelled and enjoyed Nosework so much and have noticed that many of them state 'No Prong or Pinch Collars allowed'. Is that common? Would it affect your decision to take a class?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

It wouldn't make a difference to me. imo you should be able to control a dog with a flat collar.

Maybe they are a bit prejudiced against prongs or have seen pinch and prongs used badly and simply don't want to deal with them.

I can't see some one using prong for a dog doing nose work any ways.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I don't like when it's a 'one size fits all' type of class, a trainer should be able to change directions and work with multiple types. What works for one dog may not work for another


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Are you asking specifically about not using prong collars during a Nose Work class? I think many of them don't allow them because they are not allowed at trials. So, if a Nose Work class stated "no prongs" I would not be deterred. We don't use them in our classes. If it was a regular obedience class, I would probably not attend, but that's just because my dog responds really well to the prong and not so well to other correction devices.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

I remember taking Nara through obedience classes in VA and they would not allow prongs. At the time, Nara was still a puppy, and I wasn't using prongs. It wasn't until she grew older, matured and was big and strong and pulling on walks that we started with a prong per her breeders recommendation. This seemed to be the easy way out for us. I was against the use of prongs up until that point, but I tried the prong on myself before trying it on Nara. It didn't hurt, and once she was wearing it, the pulling stopped instantly. It was a "miracle." Over time, I realized the prong was a crutch, because as soon as it came off, Nara was smart enough to know it and resort back to her pulling ways. Teaching HEEL was a better option, and I also hired a positive reinforcement behaviorist to work with us. She was the one who recommended the Softouch Concepts no-pull Sensation and/or Sensible harness. I bought one for Paw Paw, our bred-to-pull Siberian Husky, and also one for Nara. So, like the "crutch" of a prong, the harness was also a crutch that worked when they wore it, but didn't work when they were back on a flat collar. Back to HEEL training.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

I actually meant other classes besides nosework (obedience, dock diving, etc). But prong collars are actually required in the nosework class I am in right now. We don't really use them during the search itself but the class I'm in is really big on control - the dog must be under control as he/she is waiting for their turn to search. This means dogs must remain in a sit/down, quietly waiting and not showing interest in the other dogs who are sitting next to them and also on their approach to the search area (no pulling allowed) - this was more of an issue once they learned "the game" and rarely needed now that they know 'the rules'.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I met one of the women who's part of the Waukesha scentwork group (not sure if this is one you've looked into or not). We were talking about something else, and I believe she said that since they train under a trademarked name ("K9 Nose Work®") all policies apply, verbatim, no exceptions, and maybe that includes collar restrictions?

In a more general sense, I think almost every all-breed training place I've been lately doesn't allow them. The agility/pool facility in New Berlin prohibits them on the grounds, and I saw someone get yelled at in the parking lot when I stopped to check the place out. I was thinking about taking my dogs swimming there over the winter, and remember making a mental note to leave everything even remotely "chain-looking" in the car out of sight so I don't get yelled at. I don't really agree with this policy, but since they're the only dog pool in the area, I'll go anyway.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

WIBackpacker said:


> The agility/pool facility in New Berlin prohibits them on the grounds, and I saw someone get yelled at in the parking lot when I stopped to check the place out. I was thinking about taking my dogs swimming there over the winter, and remember making a mental note to leave everything even remotely "chain-looking" in the car out of sight so I don't get yelled at. I don't really agree with this policy, but since they're the only dog pool in the area, I'll go anyway.


This was one of sites where I saw it! I don't think my dogs need a prong collar to go swimming but I thought it was odd to ban them from being used during a private swim session.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

MayzieGSD said:


> This was one of sites where I saw it! I don't think my dogs need a prong collar to go swimming but I thought it was odd to ban them from being used during a private swim session.


Ha! Yeah, I was really excited when I saw their website - non-frozen winter exercise? Yes please. They definitely enforce the policy, even in the parking lot. No prongs, no chains, no chokes, probably no fursavers or look-a-likes either.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I took nosework classes with Andrew Ramsey, which at the time were at his house. All the dogs were crated, and brought out one at a time to work, and then returned to their crates. For the search we could use either a flat collar or a harness. 

I've never taken a group class of any kind where prongs were allowed, which is fine by me. I figure I can use whatever I want on my own time. But I prefer to do initial training without any special equipment, although I have used the front hook Sense-ation harnesses, which I like for a dog that's still learning to walk nicely on leash, or gets really excited going in and out of a class.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

WIBackpacker said:


> Ha! Yeah, I was really excited when I saw their website - non-frozen winter exercise? Yes please. They definitely enforce the policy, even in the parking lot. No prongs, no chains, no chokes, probably no fursavers or look-a-likes either.


I am totally going to try it.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I took nosework classes with Andrew Ramsey, which at the time were at his house. All the dogs were crated, and brought out one at a time to work, and then returned to their crates. For the search we could use either a flat collar or a harness.
> 
> I've never taken a group class of any kind where prongs were allowed, which is fine by me. I figure I can use whatever I want on my own time. But I prefer to do initial training without any special equipment, although I have used the front hook Sense-ation harnesses, which I like for a dog that's still learning to walk nicely on leash, or gets really excited going in and out of a class.


This is funny because no pull / front clip harnesses are not allowed in the training place we go to because they consider them damaging to a dog’s structure/gait. 

I suppose crates would help for the waiting portion... minus the impatient "talking"


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

MayzieGSD said:


> I am totally going to try it.


Neat! Maybe we'll see you there (wearing flat buckle collars of course).


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

MayzieGSD said:


> This is funny because no pull / front clip harnesses are not allowed in the training place we go to because they consider them damaging to a dog’s structure/gait.
> 
> I suppose crates would help for the waiting portion... minus the impatient "talking"


Our club also does not allow harnesses (unless for carting/draft practice). Not only does it affect structure, but they are quite easy for a dog to back out of. Since we are on a super busy street with a 70kph speed limit we don't want dogs getting loose on their way in and out.

Prong collars, or any other type of neck collar, are allowed. In fact, we sell them. They aren't required, or even our first option, but for large dog that doesn't pay attention to the handler and pulls them all over the place we will recommend one.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Bad Advice*

My Zeus is a remarkable animal that just so happens to have a mind of his own.

Despite this, all the trainers we trained with up until he was about a year old advised us to avoid a prong collar. So, Zeus, the nucklehead that he is pulled us all over freaking creation and frustrated us to death.

Then we went to a Shutzhund gathering and saw every dog, young or old or even puppy on a prong collar. Some had two. The members took on look at my handling of Zeus and said he should have had a prong on him since 3 or 4 months old.

So, at a year he got a prong and we noticed almost immediate positive changes in how he acted on walks and in training. Now, he's still a nucklehead. And, only I and not the wife can handle him. But with the prong on him at least he's safe now and, however begrudgingly, he now obeys commands and avoids corrections.

I can't tell you if your dog needs a prong. But I can tell you that had we used a prong from the start we'd have a much more easily handled dog today.

Best,

LF


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## XindisMom (Jun 14, 2015)

I'm a novice when it comes to living with a GSD. When my father, a pro GSD trainer, suggested the prong collar and I bought one and he showed me how to use it, it changed our lives for the better. 

However, I'm paranoid about using it in public because I know some people think it's abusive. 

It's challenging for us who have "strong - willed" GSDs. 

But, some doggies need a firm correction in order to learn dog manners.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

MayzieGSD said:


> I have been checking out some options for different training classes around here since Bruno has excelled and enjoyed Nosework so much and have noticed that many of them state 'No Prong or Pinch Collars allowed'. Is that common? Would it affect your decision to take a class?


I wouldn't work with anyone that takes issues to correcting a dog. Amateurs.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Longfisher said:


> My Zeus is a remarkable animal that just so happens to have a mind of his own.
> 
> Despite this, all the trainers we trained with up until he was about a year old advised us to avoid a prong collar. So, Zeus, the nucklehead that he is pulled us all over freaking creation and frustrated us to death.
> 
> ...


Amen


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I would not go to a No Prong All Positive class. I think positive is so important for training but their are times my GSD loses focus and a prong gives enough correction to get his attention back. I use a black one. It is subtle and I think most people don't notice it.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't like trainers who are unwilling to use the tools necessary to help the dog and owner succeed.

This anti-prong business set me and my rescue dog back many years. 

This is a trainer that is unwilling to utilize all the tools available as needed depending on the individual dog before them. Therefore they are not willing to adjust, learn and adapt for the sake of the dog or the owner. 

If you can go with a different trainer I would do so. Not because you need a prong but because that is a trainer that will allow people and their dogs to fail because of their emotionally driven views on prongs and the like.



MayzieGSD said:


> I actually meant other classes besides nosework (obedience, dock diving, etc). But prong collars are actually required in the nosework class I am in right now. We don't really use them during the search itself but the class I'm in is really big on control - the dog must be under control as he/she is waiting for their turn to search. This means dogs must remain in a sit/down, quietly waiting and not showing interest in the other dogs who are sitting next to them and also on their approach to the search area (no pulling allowed) - this was more of an issue once they learned "the game" and rarely needed now that they know 'the rules'.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think it depends on the dog. I've pretty much stuck with mostly positive training classes. Robyn and Apollo both were trained on a flat collar, no prong. Midnite needed the prong in the beginning, but I never really corrected him. None of them need it now.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's a very rare thing to see a prong on a puppy. 

None of the classes or training I've actually participated in have had prongs used on a puppy and these are IPO trainers btw.

A 3 month old puppy is still a baby. My 9 month old doesn't need a prong at this time, mostly because I've been working with a trainer and he doesn't need a prong for foundation work. It most likely will come into the mix later....

Prongs are just fine for certain applications but if folks see prongs on 3 month old puppies, that's not good nor appropriate.





Longfisher said:


> My Zeus is a remarkable animal that just so shappens to have a mind of his own.
> 
> Despite this, all the trainers we trained with up until he was about a year old advised us to avoid a prong collar. So, Zeus, the nucklehead that he is pulled us all over freaking creation and frustrated us to death.
> 
> ...


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

No prong allowed is most classes I've been to. I've seen a lot of owners looking upset & nervous getting dragged around by their dogs, and upset dogs in headhalters spending most of their class time trying to wipe that thing off their face.
I have nothing against either depending on the dog and situation, and while I haven't tried a front-hook harness myself, I may next time around. 
It's impossible to clicker train a dog if you need both hands wrapped around a leash and all your adrenaline and weight focused on keeping yourself upright. I'm not sure why physical control and personal safety isn't a top priority. And, oh yes, dislocated shoulders happen too. 
Once that is taken care of, clicker away. 
I love clicker training, but until you get your dog under control, you can't attend those classes--catch 22.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup. Our Aussie never needed a prong collar. Partly because she is soft and partly because I had learned how to establish a foundation when she was a puppy.

There are some Aussies that may need one.

The problem is when trainers get so black or white with their methods and tools.

That mindset sets people and their dogs up to fail way too often.



llombardo said:


> I think it depends on the dog. I've pretty much stuck with mostly positive training classes. Robyn and Apollo both were trained on a flat collar, no prong. Midnite needed the prong in the beginning, but I never really corrected him. None of them need it now.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Prongs are just fine for certain applications but if folks see prongs on 3 month old puppies, that's not good nor appropriate.


Depends on how the tool is used and the temperament of the pup.

3 months old is not a baby or at least a pup/dog at 3 months old can be a little terror. It's not inactive gooing and gaaing. It has teeth. It is fast. 

It is learning about the environment, the owner's capabilities, what it can and can't do. A prong can be a simply communicator to behave.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've trained around some pretty strong WL puppies and they were not using prongs on 3 month old puppies.

However, I did say "very rare" and as such if there is some sort of extreme situation going on, never say never.

However, using a prong on a 3 month old puppy as a standard training procedure is not appropriate. I don't want people coming onto this site thinking IPO trainers are slapping prongs on every 3 month old puppy or to impute from LFs post it's normal and therefore Ok. It's not.




MadLab said:


> Depends on how the tool is used and the temperament of the pup.
> 
> 3 months old is not a baby or at least a pup/dog at 3 months old can be a little terror. It's not inactive gooing and gaaing. It has teeth. It is fast.
> 
> It is learning about the environment, the owner's capabilities, what it can and can't do. A prong can be a simply communicator to behave.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It's a very rare thing to see a prong on a puppy.
> 
> None of the classes or training I've actually participated in have had prongs used on a puppy and these are IPO trainers btw.
> 
> ...


Prongs not used on puppies here either. I think that they are introduced around 7-9 months age if needed.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yup. Our Aussie never needed a prong collar. Partly because she is soft and partly because I had learned how to establish a foundation when she was a puppy.
> 
> There are some Aussies that may need one.
> 
> ...


I think that you have to stand your ground with the trainers. Midnite had to see several, most were positive and didn't like the idea of the prong, but they also knew me. I did take Midnite to aN all positive training class with a prong on. They never turned me away and continued to give me ideas with him until he got where he is now.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE

How to fit a prong for any one out there

People should use there common sense obviously and use only tools and techniques that they are comfortable with and confident using and appropriate for the age and temperament of the pup/dog.Who decides this is generally the owner or trainer. 

Still I like to dispel the myth that 3 month puppys are babies. There is a world of difference in mobility and ability. People should see there pup as a little predator. That's what it is. I guess it's practical versus emotional.. What it is, versus what people see or have been conditioned to see.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I have to agree with Gwen here. Trainers need to be flexible. I've had a dog (ridgie mix) that did great with a choke chain. I seldom had to tug it. She learned to heel the day I crashed into her and went flying over her when she ran in front of me to chase a squirrel. It is a training technique I don't recommend, but it worked.

I had another dog (beagle whippet mix) that if you just looked at her wrong she withered. I used a wide martingale style collar with her and her longer neck.

My two year old GSD got his prong at about 7 months old. Even now, if he wants to chase a critter on the other side of the fence, he knows he can yank that leash right out of my arms when he is only in his martingale. He is more respectful in the prong collar. 

by the way, we took our 3 month old and our two year old out on their first pack walk in public. Big guy was wearing his prong, and hubby had his leash. I had the pup on her harness. I'm starting out now letting her see that I expect her to walk near my left leg. Having gone through it with my older dog I know have a better idea of how long it will take for her to get a clue.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

One method does not fit all Car2ner. :thumbup:


As an aside, if you see, hear, know of a "trainer" who habitually, as a norm, slaps a prong collar on 3 month puppy don't walk away, run!!!!

My first trainer was IPO, protection, police K9 trainer with **many ** years of experience and one of the first things he said was many people with large breeds are too hard on puppies too soon and it often caused problems down the road. They don't have the attention span or retention to learn at that level yet.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Depends on the trainer. There is a PO trainer locally who willnot allow prong or choke chains. Very strict. Good that your trainer respected your needs though!




llombardo said:


> I think that you have to stand your ground with the trainers. Midnite had to see several, most were positive and didn't like the idea of the prong, but they also knew me. I did take Midnite to aN all positive training class with a prong on. They never turned me away and continued to give me ideas with him until he got where he is now.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I am here to say that I don't know if I would have Newlie now were it not for his prong collar. When Newlie first came to me, he was wearing a flat collar and I could tell pretty quickly that it was not going to work. So, I had a harness left from my previous dog and put him in it. On our very first obedience class, they said "no harnesses," so I put him back in his flat collar for his second class. On the way across the parking lot, he came darn near to pulling me down, but I managed not to fall and still keep hold of the leash and not let either one of us get hit by a car.

Newlie's subsequent trainer is the one who put him in a prong collar and it really made a huge difference. Newlie is extremely strong or at least it seems so to me. There is no way that I can control him without a prong collar. And the really funny part about it is that Newlie loves the collar. He gets mad when I take it off and can't wait to put it back on again.

Whenever I take Newlie to the kennel where I occasionally board him, they always make a big production of taking the prong off and handing it back to me like it's something distasteful, like rat poop I had fastened around his neck. Too bad. I just smile and go right on. 

Whenever I take Newlie to a kennel or a groomer, they always swear they know how to put the prong back on, but 9 times out of 10, they don't. Usually, they have it too loose, hanging around his neck like a necklace. One shake of the head and he would be out of it. But yesterday, when I went to pick him up from the groomers, I had the opposite experience. I have been taking Newlie there every since I've had him, and they are very good, but they must have had someone new working there. Anyway, the prong wasn't hanging, so I took the leash and we went home. Later that night, I went to take the prong off, and OH MY God, it was entirely too tight!! He wasn't retching or having trouble breathing or anything or I would have noticed sooner, but still the poor boy had to have been miserable. I had to cut his little scarf off and then try to get the prong off while he was fussing and muttering at me. I felt so bad afterward, but I learned a lesson. I will check his collar each and every time I have to leave him someplace and I am going to call his groomer next week so that they can show the new person how to put on a prong.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Find yourself an actual trainer that has provable results. Forget the positive only idiocy or behaviorists. These are useless for actual results.
Prongs are a tool nothing more or less. Used properly they are not a crutch nor is there any magical age where it becomes appropriate to use. The same goes for e collars. Depending on your goals these tools can be used on young dogs if the user knows what they are doing.
Remember most sport training or dogs doing tricks for food in a sterile environment is completely different from functional obedience.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Find yourself an actual trainer that has provable results. Forget the positive only idiocy or behaviorists. These are useless for actual results.
> Prongs are a tool nothing more or less. Used properly they are not a crutch nor is there any magical age where it becomes appropriate to use. The same goes for e collars. Depending on your goals these tools can be used on young dogs if the user knows what they are doing.
> Remember most sport training or dogs doing tricks for food in a sterile environment is completely different from functional obedience.


This thought process is no different then positive trainers refusing to use a prong. Not all dogs do well with prong or e collar and not all do well with positive training. Some need a mix of everything, some need one or the other. I've had good results from positive only on a few dogs and good results using a prong. The key is an open mind and using all tools available, then being able to move forward without those tools(treats, prong, etc).


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

llombardo said:


> This thought process is no different then positive trainers refusing to use a prong. Not all dogs do well with prong or e collar and not all do well with positive training. Some need a mix of everything, some need one or the other. I've had good results from positive only on a few dogs and good results using a prong. The key is an open mind and using all tools available, then being able to move forward without those tools(treats, prong, etc).


Yes!! I only offer private pet dog training and start with the newer techniques until I figure out the dog; whatever the dog needs and the owner is willing to use. I refuse to work with someone if they are not willing to make it succeed.
In the past I was all for positive only but quickly learned after my first WL GSD that that was not realistic. However, I won't work with front clip harnesses or haltis/gentle leaders. I prefer regular harnesses for the short nosed dogs though.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

When Mayzie was a puppy, we went to positive only / treat based classes and I remember the instructor for one of the classes seemed afraid of her. Which was ridiculous.
She was a 5-6 month old puppy who loved people! But this lady was used to dealing with smaller, easier dogs. So when I see a place that says 'no prongs or pinch collars', it makes me wonder if they are really experienced trainers. So seeing that made me kind of hesitate to sign up.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

llombardo said:


> This thought process is no different then positive trainers refusing to use a prong. Not all dogs do well with prong or e collar and not all do well with positive training. Some need a mix of everything, some need one or the other. I've had good results from positive only on a few dogs and good results using a prong. The key is an open mind and using all tools available, then being able to move forward without those tools(treats, prong, etc).


Actually there is not one single dog that those tools wont work with....when the user has a clue. Aggressive, anxious, hard, soft, high drive, low drive doesnt matter. Only exception possibly being a dog under 5lbs in which the tools simply wont fit.

Where an earth did you get the impression that since I use those tools I dont use motivators as well..

What I say is based on results and experience not supposition. 

I find that often my perception of success and good results are far different then what most people percieve as such.
A good measure for this is how long the training took and what type of control was achieved.

2 months or 8 classes should be the max to achieve full off leash control under distraction for a dog over 6 months.

If you did not achieve this your probably getting gipped. 

As always happy to post video..


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## RiggZ (Oct 22, 2014)

The prong collar is highly misunderstood. By trainers and owners. You cannot use them at a Nose work trial, which to mean makes no sense, because you can use a choke chain. To me, choke chains are the harsher of the two. But, whatever. I also do Nose Work. I usually go to class with either a thin slip, a fursaver, or a flat collar. I wouldnt let it deter you from taking the class. Nose Work is fun! You can get a pretty good response from the dog with a thin snap choker type collar. i use Leerburgs Dominant Dog collar. I like that its thin and light and stays right behind the ears.


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