# SAD INVISIBLE FENCE STORY-FOR EDUCATION :(



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Invisble Fence story- Crosspost Please
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I received this from a friend. I'm not a big fan of invisible fences either - have seen many dogs break right thru them chasing after rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks or other dogs. 

Permission to Cross Post granted and encouraged!!

I have never been a big fan of Invisible Fencing, but today I am sick at heart. Images of a young girl with blood dripping from her face, of another young girl opening her front door to discover the body of her dog laying on her front yard as well as the sound of the shot from the police revolver that killed the dog haunt me.

Like many of the homes in our area, our neighbors had decided to use invisible fencing. The boundary ran nearly to the sidewalk on one side and the road on the other side of the home. The owners had very carefully trained their dog to respect the boundary and although we no longer used the sidewalk when walking our own dogs past the house, we never saw the dog cross the boundaries - only bark and charge up and down the length of the yard.

Unfortunately, Invisible Fencing doesn't prevent anyone - human or animal - from crossing into a yard so protected. A child might think twice about opening a gate to enter a yard fenced by "visible" material, but most won't think at all before stepping a few feet onto someone's grass. Most folks might think twice about crossing a whole lawn to enter someone's backyard, but who thinks about stepping one or two feet off a sidewalk?

So yesterday afternoon, on the way home from school, one of the children in the neighborhood who knew the dog well stopped to say 'hello'. He walked onto the grass to greet the dog. He was accompanied by a girl who adores dogs and she, too, walked into the yard to greet the dog. Then, the girl bent down to kiss the dog. And the dog bit her, tearing her lip badly.

The girl's mother called the police and an ambulance. One of the policeman saw the girl covered in blood while her mother screamed "That dog tore her face off". The police then went to the house where the dog lived. The dog was protective of his property, knew he had done something wrong and also knew the police were acting in a threatening manner. He growled and menacingly charged the police; but never ever crossed the boundary of his yard.

He was standing in the middle of the yard when the policeman shot him. Shortly after, the young teenaged girl who lived there realized something was going on and opened her front door only to find the dog's body with police cars in the street and police standing in the road.

You could say that no one should ever approach a dog they don't know. That no one should ever put their face close to a dog they don't know well. That no one should ever enter another person's yard without their express permission and in the owner's presence.

You can argue that the police should have waited for Animal Control. You can argue that the dog was a Mastiff mix, that the police considered it a bulldog and dangerous. You can argue, as do the neighbors who knew the dog well, that the dog was actually just a big loveable teddy bear of a dog. You could argue that the dog was large, looked mean and threatening, as large dogs frequently do. You could even argue that Invisible Fences don't always work - as the police believe happened in this case. However, my husband was working outside and saw the children inside the yard.

Each of those arguments have some truth to them. But what you can't argue with is that Invisible Fencing is basically no protection at all, especially when it is run up to your property lines. It doesn't protect your dog from animals entering the yard. It doesn't protect your dog from humans entering the yard. It leaves your dog to do the protecting. And while that little girl, now awaiting plastic surgery, might have petted a dog through a "real" fence and still been bitten, it is doubtful that it would have been her face that was damaged. It is also doubtful that the police would have felt they needed to shoot the dog on the spot if it had been contained by a "visible" fence.

I am writing about this tragedy primarily for the rescue community. I give all of you permission to print it and put it into the packages you give your adopters, to warn them that Invisible Fencing may be cheaper than 'visible' fencing but it might not be so cheap in the long run!! To beg them that, if they must use it, to at least limit the area to just their backyards, not to run it to their property lines.

Samantha DiMaio-Leach, Jacksonville FL Sheltie Rescue, Canine Cushing's Auto-Immune Care,

Orange Park FL


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

First of all I don't care if the child knew the dog and adored him/her they should not have gone up to the dog he was protecting his territory.

I feel bad for the child and the police had NO right to shot the dog.

I have invisable fence and love it. My lab charges to the boundry line barking but never breaks through. 
People walk bye the do look but aren't stupid enough to come in and pet my dog espeically if we aren't out there.

It is a sad situation but parents need to strees to children not to walk up to dogs unless they have permisssion from the dogs owner.

I know you are only posting for information, I am not trying to be insentive but the dog wasn't in the wrong


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

I totally agree with you! This poor dog did not deserve to die


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

With an invisible fence a dog should not be left unsupervised, otherwise this is one of the worse case scenario's that may result. Especially if the dog runs up and down the fence charging! That is so dangerous, as well as unfair to those using the public sidewalk. 

I think the police took care of it appropriately, and prevented a repeat incident. This may be seen as a bit harsh, but people have to be taking these incidents seriously, and there are going to be some horrible consequences if not taken care before a serious bite happens. This was not a snap, nor was the child bitten as it entered the yard, it was while they were petting the dog (as I am reading it anyway), it was a bite to the face requiring plastic surgery! So sad








Regardless of the dog's relationship with it's family, and history, it bit a girl in the face and it sounds like a pretty bad bite. When the police come to see the dog, it reacted by charging them which I am sure didn't help the case. 
Why would the owners think that a invisible fence would be appropriate in this case? Obviously charging at people just over the barrier is asking for a problem. What if he decided to push through the fence one day? Who would be at fault then?
At the very least they could have posted a no trespassing sign and a warning dog sign, and definitely should not have encourage any children to come pet the dog, as children will do exactly what happened after they are comfortable or invited in.
But like the OP said this argument could go round and round. A lesson learned the very hard and sad way.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: littledmc... and the police had NO right to shot the dog.





> Quote:...He growled and menacingly charged the police


There was no way for the police to know that the dog was contained via an electric fence.

What if there was no e-fence? What if the dog charged at the officer and he didn't shoot. And the dog rushed past him and went after the girl again?

Then would we be yelling that the officer SHOULD have shot the dog??

It is OUR responsibility as dog owners to properly contain our dogs. And not only for their own safety but also for the safety of others.

If Average Joe was walking past your property and saw a 'loose' dog (no VISIBLE signs of containment) charging at me barking they would probably think they were about to be attacked and run, risking injury to themselves.

The main issues why I would NEVER use an electric fence are because they do not protect your dog from someone or something coming INTO their area and because they do not show people that your dog is properly contained.



> Originally Posted By: littledmcFirst of all I don't care if the child knew the dog and adored him/her they should not have gone up to the dog he was protecting his territory.


These are CHILDREN. What they KNOW and what they DO are two totally different things. At my first house the neighborhood kids thought nothing of climbing the fence to get into my yard to retreive their toys. They thought nothing of reaching through or over the fence to pet the dogs. Even thought I told them MANY times NOT to do those things unless I was out in the yard WITH the dogs.

And then there was the time I came out of the bathroom to find a 3-4 year old girl sitting in my livingroom playing with the dogs. She walked in through the front door!

Kids will be kids and as adults it's OUR responsibility to protect them.

It's not the kids fault. It's not the dogs fault. It's the owners fault for using the e-fence.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I feel bad for everyone involved. When we moved in here, I thought about in visible fence then decided against it becuase someone presented the argument that if Luther saw the mailcarrier as the enemy (he did) and he was shocked crossing the line, the shock would reinforce Luther's thought that the mailcarrier was the enemy. Soooo we have chain link - 6 ft tall nice and strong.


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## ninhar (Mar 22, 2003)

> Quote: I have invisable fence and love it. My lab charges to the boundry line barking but never breaks through.
> People walk bye the do look but aren't stupid enough to come in and pet my dog espeically if we aren't out there.


You are playing with fire. It is irresponsible to have a dog outside on an invisble fence if the dog isn't supervised. Imagine for one minute being on the other side of the fence and being charged, that could be absolutely terrifying to someone. 

The owners failed this dog by leaving him out unattended. The dog lost, the child lost. How sad.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

"It's not the kids fault. It's not the dogs fault. It's the owners fault for using the e-fence."

So true









I never liked them.....


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

The only time I've seen it effctively used is to augment a regular fence to stop little dogs from digging out


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

gotta tell ya, as much as i luv storm, i would never trust him with an invisible fence. his prey drive is way too high. although i've never tried it, i seriously do not think it would contain him should he see another dog out in the street. i just wouldn't trust it. i do have chain link and was considering running the invisible fence a few feet from my chain link just to keep him from charging the fence and scaring the begeeze out of people, but other then that, i wouldn't trust just the fence alone. i'd be afraid that he'd also run out in the street and get hit by a car.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

That's a very tragic incident. 
Besides the probs. mentioned, the fence also fails to work everytime the battery runs low. We have dogs in the neighborhood with an invis. fence and they're very good about staying i.t. yard---unless the battery runs low. Then you can see them walking along the street- while it's not that busy of a road, it's narrow & winding and hard to see ahead.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

I am not playing with fire my dogs have been on invisafence for 3 years and never have gone over there boundries. 
They are nevr left outside unless one of us are home and if we are in the house we can see what they are up too. 

The onlt time the battery would die is if you don't replace it when you are suppose to

The dog may have charged the police officer but as it was stated it didn't over the line and didn't deserve to die


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: littledmc
> The dog may have charged the police officer but as it was stated it didn't over the line and didn't deserve to die


So the cop should have waited UNTIL the dog crossed the line? How do you know that the cop KNEW there was a line to be crossed. The dog charged AT the cop. That is reason enough for the cop to do what he did. 

Should the dog have paid with his life for the bite? No probably not it was not entirely his fault. However, the dog DID charge the cop and that is usually a death sentence for a dog.


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## HarleyGirl52874 (Jun 16, 2006)

As Lauri stated kids are kids and they may know the right thing to do but don't always do it. But a spin to that is, too many parents don't educate their kids enough about other peoples dogs. 

I have had Suesse out in public so many times and parents just let their kids run up to her to pet her. Now she isn't mean, or aggressive at all, but put in her perspective, to see this thing come charging at her can be a bit unnerving. I don't care how solid your dogs nerves are, or how friendly they are.

My son has always been around dogs, but even at a very young age, he knew better to run up to a strange dog and stick his hand or face in its face.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcThe dog may have charged the police officer but as it was stated it didn't over the line and didn't deserve to die


But that's the problem with e-fences ... the police didn't KNOW there was a line the dog wouldn't cross.

How many times are they supposed to let the dog charge at them? How are they supposed to KNOW the dog won't complete the charge one of those times. Are we supposed to tell the police to allow a dog to charge within X amount of feet before they are allowed to defend themselves?

My complaint about e-fence has nothing to do with whether or not it keeps a dog contained. Properly used – it does.

What is does NOT do is keep things (other dogs, people, kids, coyotes) OUT and it does NOT let people know your dog IS contained.

Even if you put up a sign – how am I to know WHERE the e-fence is? How do I know that your charging dog WILL stop at a certain point?

If a dog is charging me and I do not see a PHYSICAL barrier between me and them – I am going to take action to protect myself.


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## HarleyGirl52874 (Jun 16, 2006)

Thinking about this more, that as some have said the police should not have shot the dog.

Same line as cop is chasing a criminal, the criminal stops and puts his hands in his pocket, cop shoots criminal, come to find out criminal didn't have a weapon. 

The cop didn't know, and was protecting himself.

Same thing as where the dog is concerned. Although it is a very sad sitiuation all the way around, for the young girl, the dog, and the dogs owner.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I did not like invisible fences before I read this story. IMO they are inhumane. 
This is just another reason they do not work. 

I saw a booth at a Shelter fund raiser last weekend. I could not even believe they were there. 

You buy this collar put it on your dog, there is an invisable fence, the dog goes to far and it shocks them!








Right this is the fence we are talking about here?????
WHAT??? Really?? 
Who thought this was a good idea?? 

Someone creating a home association where visable fences are not allowed??









We went to a friends house that had this. Their dogs were in this weird state of mind. They would not even go near where the invisable fence was, they were not even wearing the collars. 
They watched my boys play just over the line, it made me so sad, I whispered in their dogs ear, you are not wearing your collar go play!


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

No PHD here, but I do think I can read dogs fairly well. 


No, I choose to train pain free.


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## ninhar (Mar 22, 2003)

> Quote:I am not playing with fire my dogs have been on invisafence for 3 years and never have gone over there boundries.
> They are nevr left outside unless one of us are home and if we are in the house we can see what they are up too.


You stand at the window or door and watch them the entire time they are outside? You watch as they charge the fence line scarring the heck out of anyone who doesn't know they will stop at their property line? 

In the email posted by the OP, someone was home at that dog's house also. And when she came out it was too late. Like that owner, you are playing with fire.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2008)

If the fence is invisible so is any protection for your dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: HarleyGirl52874As Lauri stated kids are kids and they may know the right thing to do but don't always do it. But a spin to that is, too many parents don't educate their kids enough about other peoples dogs.
> 
> I have had Suesse out in public so many times and parents just let their kids run up to her to pet her. Now she isn't mean, or aggressive at all, but put in her perspective, to see this thing come charging at her can be a bit unnerving. I don't care how solid your dogs nerves are, or how friendly they are.


So true. I always assume that everyone else doesn't know anything about handling dogs, so ALL the responsibility is on ME, even on my own property. My Kenya does not have a bite history but she is somewhat nervy and does not like little kids, they make her nervous. If they are too close and doing weird things I can see her tail tuck and her eyes dart around. I can't imagine containing her with an e-fence that goes up to a public sidewalk where kids pass and leaving her unattended! Yes she is my dog and it's my yard, but lordy I could not sleep at night if I had that attitude about dog ownership. She is MY dog, I KNOW that she is uncomfortable around children so it's MY responsibility to make sure the situations are controlled. If she is approached by children, it is only with my permission. I typically let older children pet her after I've explained how. I don't let any kids under the age of five near her, because I cannot discipline someone else's child and I can't expect a child that age to understand what I'm saying about how to treat a dog. She had a bad experience with a toddler (which I accept the blame for even though the parent stood by and laughed) so since then I have been working on making small children a positive experience. Recently a toddler came running up to her and even though I didn't know him I grabbed him by his arm and said "no touch!" before he grabbed Kenya. Again the father just laughed while I carried his kid away from my dog, but whatever. Even Coke, who LOVES little kids and is very gentle, very forgiving if they jump on him or pull on him, I NEVER leave unattended with anyone! 

I am no stranger to GSD bites, I was bit in the face by a GSD when I was a toddler. Now I probably deserved it (jumping on a sleeping dog or something like that), but my grandma should have known better than to leave a toddler with a large, unpredictable dog (the dog in question was no angel).

In some respects I am thankful that I rent and that my yard has no fence. I have learned to contain my dogs knowing that there are always going to be children in my yard (there is a toddler living in our duplex and a ton of little kids next door). I cannot put up a fence or an e-fence because I do not own the property. Likewise I cannot say "this is my yard, they shouldn't have challenged my dog" because it's NOT my yard. When the toddler in our duplex comes out to play, I immediately move my dogs inside. If him or any other child asks to play with my dogs, I take Coke out on a leash, show them how to pet, and help them throw sticks and things for him to fetch. I am always holding the leash, no one touches the dog unless I say so. When I'm done, me AND the dogs go inside.

I'm not inherently against e-fences, I just don't think I could ever use on in good conscience when the boundary was right on the edge of a public sidewalk and I knew my dog would bark and pace on the line.


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## HarleyGirl52874 (Jun 16, 2006)

" My Kenya does not have a bite history but she is somewhat nervy and does not like little kids, they make her nervous. If they are too close and doing weird things I can see her tail tuck and her eyes dart around."

That is my Suesse. We are working slowly on younger kids, she is not used to them because we don't have any, my son is 14 so those little things puzzle and confuse her. Which is why I take her to all of my sons football games. But ya know what Lies, I have started to somewhat disipline others kids, or should I say correct them on how to approach a dog. I try to let them know that no she may not bite, but other dogs possibly will. Had to explain that to a younger kid the other weekend.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcI am not playing with fire my dogs have been on invisafence for 3 years and never have gone over there boundries.
> They are nevr left outside unless one of us are home and if we are in the house we can see what they are up too.
> 
> The onlt time the battery would die is if you don't replace it when you are suppose to
> ...


Yes, but the story said that the invisible fence line went all the way to the edge of the property. If the officer stepped just off the sidewalk into the yard (which he probably did) then he would have been already over the boundary line where the dog could cross. The officers didn't know that the dog was contained. 

I'll admit that I don't like invisible fences. I hate that the dog died. That is a very sad, horrible situation for all involved. But I will say that they were kids. I have a niece and nephew and if a dog bit one of them severely enough to have plastic surgery, there was blood running down their face, and there was no visible sign of containment for the dog, I can't say that I would not be yelling for the police. Furthermore if the owner said that it was the kids fault you can bet that I would be more than a little angry. 
With an invisible fence running all the way to the public sidewalk you are asking for trouble and blaming children that don't know any better is not putting the blame in the right place. It's the owner of the dog that is at fault. Should the parents teach their kid not to mess with dogs they don't know? Sure. But that doesn't mean the kid will listen. How many times have any of us done stuff as kids that our parents told us not to?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Sad all the way around.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: HarleyGirl52874" My Kenya does not have a bite history but she is somewhat nervy and does not like little kids, they make her nervous. If they are too close and doing weird things I can see her tail tuck and her eyes dart around."
> 
> That is my Suesse. We are working slowly on younger kids, she is not used to them because we don't have any, my son is 14 so those little things puzzle and confuse her. Which is why I take her to all of my sons football games. But ya know what Lies, I have started to somewhat disipline others kids, or should I say correct them on how to approach a dog. I try to let them know that no she may not bite, but other dogs possibly will. Had to explain that to a younger kid the other weekend.


I think that is our problem as well. I've only had Kenya for a year and she is almost five, but we don't know any real little kids so we only first encountered them in the past few months. In her previous home, the children were high school age boys and the mother competes with her dogs so I assume they were dog savvy kids.

The point and you and I prove is that it doesn't really matter who is at FAULT, but that it is our responsibility to address the issue and make sure it does not become a liability. Maybe it's someone's fault for not bringing Kenya around more little kids, maybe it's the kids' fault for acting weird, maybe it's the parents' fault for letting kids run up to dogs and poke their eyes....but it doesn't really matter because it is what it is. Some dogs just are not inherently accepting of kids. It's the owner's responsibility to know the dog's limits and use careful management. Using a e-fence along a public sidewalk where kids walk home from school is bad management. But I feel terrible for the owners, hindsight is always 20/20....


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje It's the owner's responsibility to know the dog's limits and use careful management. Using a e-fence along a public sidewalk where kids walk home from school is bad management. But I feel terrible for the owners, hindsight is always 20/20....


I agree my e-fence is far away from street/side walk so the dogs when they do charge they are NO where near the people. My lab isn't all that good with kids. Brady on the other hand is awesome with kids. Most of the time the dogs do charge is because there are outher dogs walking bye. 

My question would be where were the owners when this happend?
if they weren't home shame on them


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSDadIf the fence is invisible so is any protection for your dog.





> Originally Posted By: kutzro357They are for containment of the dog.



And that's rather the point isn't it? It does nothing else and the jury's still out on even that much. Owners are responsible not only for keeping dogs contained they are responsible for keeping them safe.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Very sad. I don't really like e-fences. Too many stories like these. I'm sure they can work with some dogs in some situations, but NOTHING and NO ONE is foolproof. The idea that you can leave a dog unsupervised behind one just doesn't sit well with me. It would probably be fine under total supervision along with an e-collar as backup just in case the dog does blow the fence (and yes, some dogs DO blow the fence regardless of training because NO DOG is ever 100% perfect).

Okay, what's with all the anonymous posting??


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

That is weird earlier those anonymous posts were from GSDad. 
How did it change??


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

On other threads too.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Yeah, I went back and searched a few, he seems to be unregistered everywhere...


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&topic=64921

There's his thread on Hazel.... GSDad, where'd you go?


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

How would all his posts do that? 

He did it or someone else? 

On suggestions he was having trouble with someone, but I thought it was a troll. 

Weird.

I like him. Hope he is not gone away.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> Kids will be kids and as adults it's OUR responsibility to protect them.
> It's not the kids fault. It's not the dogs fault. It's the owners fault for using the e-fence.


 I completely agree with this, and I have invisible fence in the front for a blanket security. My dogs are supervised when out front and one is not good with small children & she hates the sheltie's non-stop circle barking next door. We are vigilant in watching them when they are out in the garage, front yard. We have the e-fence for a deterrant, and Onyx is so intimidated by it that she stays in the garage, won't venture out unless I coax her. Couple weeks ago, local news had a choc. lab that was very ill due to infection on the neck from the owner never removing/checking the e- collar tightness and was blaming invisible fence company. It is the owners responsibility to make sure the dogs are safe! I talked w/ someone today haven't seen her forever, her daughter was attacked by a GSD when she was 7, and is afraid of dogs now. Dog was put down(2nd bite incident) and I told her it was the owners fault, not the dog, not her child...She is still thinking of sueing the owner for her daughter to have plastic surgery to take care of the scars on her back and arm( she has no moneybecause it is her neighbor, she is hesitant.


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## pjindy00 (Feb 19, 2007)

Sad story for everyone involved, but I agree, the dog's owner is to blame. Dogs, like any other animal, are unpredictable, and even our most reliable and well trained dogs may have that once-in-a-lifetime moment. An invisible fence can have certain uses, but using it as the only boundry between your dog and passers-by is not, IMO, responsible dog ownership.

If I saw a loose dog charging at me while walking my dogs, if I had a means of defending me and my dogs, I would do so. My dog has had issues with on-leash dog aggression, most of which we have worked through, but it was caused by aggresive, loose dogs (before I adopted her). I will not place her in a position of being attacked again if I can do anything to prevent it. Invisible fences do not give anyone a sense of security - the dog inside them only knows it cannot cross an invisible line. Anything outside of that has no clue what's going on.

I believe in very remote areas, or used as a secondary boundry, or with constantly supervised dogs they can serve a purpose, but outside of those situations, the dog will quickly learn that they have to defend that line, and without teaching them NOT to do so, they will eventually be given the opportunity to hurt someone/something. 

Leaving a dog mostly unsupervised and allowed to charge anything is, IMO, not very responsible. My dogs have learned to completely ignore the charging dogs on the other side of our privacy fence, even when getting a ball that's rolled right up to the fence. They will bark at strangers, but do not charge and continually bark (or if they start to some training begins again). Charging dogs of any kind can pose a potential for a problem, no matter what they are behind, and invisible fences are even worse in that they won't keep anything out.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:It is the owners responsibility to make sure the dogs are safe!


Can we get this on a few billboards?


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcMy lab charges to the boundry line barking but never breaks through.
> People walk bye the do look but aren't stupid enough to come in and pet my dog espeically if we aren't out there.


I have a friend that is so frightened of large dogs that she'd probably have an accident if she was walking by your house.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Too late to edit, but we only have the E-fence to make sure, if our gate was somehow left open, or service door from garage, our dogs will(and do) think twice about what happens if they go near the boundaries. They are smart, and know that they will get shocked if they go near them. Maybe not smart enough), as they only have e-collar on when I go out front with them. But it does keep them from going in the front unless I am there with them.

Invisible fence automatically sends new batteries when ours are low, and they can tell how many times the dog has tested the boundaries. I think we paid more for this service, but it is worth it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not a fan of electric fences. I never know when I walk down a street if a dog is loose or contained by an e-fence, so I avoid them. But you cannot expect children to do that. You cannot expect adults to do that. They should not have to.

About leaving dogs unsupervised with an e-fence, I agree that it is playing with fire. Too many kids will take a stick and tease a dog through a fence. That would be hard to do with an e-fence. But a lot of dogs perceive teasing as the act of riding a bicycle, shouting to a buddy, roller skating, skateboarding, etc. When I am not able to supervise, my pups are in kennels that are surrounded by a second fence. 

If a neighborhod child opens my gate, and goes into my yard, and then opens a kennel they could get bitten or let my dog out to get hit by a car. It is possible. Would it be my fault? I think that by law in Ohio, I could not be held criminally negligent in this situation. Which is not to say I could not be sued, but it just means I would probably not go to jail. Where I am, knowing the inaccessibility and the neighborhood, and lack of children, I think I do not have anything to worry about. Would I ever leave my critters out in just the fenced area? I think not. I have left the boy in far field which is a little different as there is no access to the outside and an electric fence as well as a visible fence, and the dog does respect the wire. He does not climb or jump or dig. It is not what I ever WANT to do and will only do that as a temporary, emergency situation.


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## fourdogsrule (May 10, 2007)

I have had an invisible fence for 2 1/2 yrs now and all of my dogs stay 5 ft. from the actual line, but I also don't have it out to the road so they scare anyone. They will also get a high pitch beep 5 ft before they will actually get a zap. They are also not outside unless someone is out there with them.
Only one of my dogs will run and bark when someone or something is going by and I call him back just once and he comes immediately.
I am also looking into some phyiscal fencing, since my neighbors across the street from me don't like my dogs. But it is ok for there dog to roam the neighborhood and come into my yard when ever it feels like it and my dogs don't leave the yard.
This sitituation in horrible, but it is the owners fault for not being responsible for there dog.
Training and resposiblity (sp?) is the key to keeping your dogs and everyone around you safe.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, in my opinion, it is training, responsibility, and containment. I am sorry that you are having such a problem with your neighbor. But it is up to us to keep our dogs safe. That includes keeping them safe from invading critters. A solid fence will do a better job at this than an invisible fence, as one provides SOME protection. 

No, we should not HAVE to keep them safe from other people's dogs, but in my neighborhood it is coyotes. Invisible fence will not work on them. And I cannot blame the neighbors. 

Good that you stay out there when yours are out.


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## Katerlena (May 30, 2008)

This is a very sad story

Many years ago we had someone come to give us an estimate on the Invisible fence. He told me that some dogs will go thru the fence (I remember he said especially stubborn ones so that ruled ours out). Also I was worried about other wildlife coming into the yard. My husband put up a large stockade fence and we keep it locked (after my female had figured out how to open the door and took a dip in the neighbors goldfish pond) (they were very nice about it). 

I know some people that have the invisible fence and are satisfied with it. I think it depends on your dog’s personality, your neighborhood, your yard etc. The wooden fence was significantly more expensive than the invisible fence but our main priority was keeping the fur babies safe and the stockade seemed like the only feasible option for our situation.


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## the_stig (Sep 12, 2005)

I'd do that cop so fast if she shot my dog over that.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzerNo, in my opinion, it is training, responsibility, and containment. I am sorry that you are having such a problem with your neighbor. But it is up to us to keep our dogs safe. That includes keeping them safe from invading critters. A solid fence will do a better job at this than an invisible fence, as one provides SOME protection.
> 
> No, we should not HAVE to keep them safe from other people's dogs, but in my neighborhood it is coyotes. Invisible fence will not work on them. And I cannot blame the neighbors.
> 
> Good that you stay out there when yours are out.


Well if you like you can pay to have my 3 acres fenced in then.

My dogs are well behaved and do not brake thru I love the invisafence and I know quite a few people who love it too.
I take my dogs collars off every night. When my dogs do go out at night eith myself or my DH are out there with them and we have motion lights to light up the yard.

If idiot people don't do what they are instructed to do then they shouldn't have dogs.


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## HarleyGirl52874 (Jun 16, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: The_StigI'd do that cop so fast if she shot my dog over that.


But what if that dog was getting ready to attack the cop. The cop was doing what needed to be done to protect himself. 

As I said earlier, no different then a human that seems to be a threat to an officer. Yes I would be upset also if they shot my dog, but logically that officer had no idea what that dog was about to do.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: HarleyGirl52874
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: The_StigI'd do that cop so fast if she shot my dog over that.
> ...


there has been some abuses, the Maryland small town mayor had his Labs shot, one of dogs was pursued into the backyard to be shot and a case in Cali were the police again using a no knock warrant just shot the dogs and rolled in


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is no reason anyone should fence three acres for their dog. A dog does not need to roam on three acres to be happy. Though I live in the country and have many acres behind me of county property, I only own 1 acre. Some of that is inaccessible down in the ravine. There is way more front yard than back yard, and I only have the back fenced. Maybe a quarter of an acre. Within this are the kennels. 

Fencing a large piece of property would take vigilence to ensure that there are no hazards to the dogs, and that the fence did not have wear and tear that might mean your dogs are running loose. 

You can be upset, but an electric fence gives you zero protection from wild animals and other people's animals. After it happens, you can reflect on it, and decide whether it was worth the risk. You are already limiting the risk by being out there with them.


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## HarleyGirl52874 (Jun 16, 2006)

I understand that there are some abuse going on but in this case which was stated, 

"He growled and menacingly charged the police; but never ever crossed the boundary of his yard."

I don't see what the officer did was out of line or a sign of abuse. No the dog didn't cross the boundry, but like was said earlier, the officer either didn't know there was an invisible fence or if did know there was one, didn't know if the dog was gonna cross it or not.

I am not saying this was the best way to handle it, but I also don't fault the officer for shooting the dog.


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## HarleyGirl52874 (Jun 16, 2006)

Maybe no need to fence in 3 acres, but I can say when we finally get property, which we are looking at 10 but no less then 7, my goal IS to fence in all of it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am interested in knowing how old you are. If you are like, sixteen, my answer would be a little less harsh. 
But as I do not know, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. 

No way, "doing" the cop would not be appropriate in this instance as the cop did the right thing. 

Sorry, a police officer is supposed to keep the peace and protect the public. When they are called to a scene where they see a child bitten and bleeding in the face, a dog actively aggressing with nothing holding it back (that they can see), then they have to take action before another child or adult is bitten. Some of what we expect out of police officers is making judgement calls. I would have shot the dog too. Not only that, but even if I KNEW that there WAS an electric fence, I would have shot the dog. 

Think about it, no one is out there with the dog. It is running around barking, growling, hackles raised, etc. How are you as the police officer going to climb the steps to try to get someone in the house to come out and restrain their dog? 

I can tell you that there is a point where dogs reach where they will not stop to consider pain, etc., whether it be going through an electric fence or continuing to fight with another dog, or attacking a guy with a stick. This can be a protection trained dog that has great nerves and is trained in bite work, or this can be a dog that has worked itself up so bad that it is in a state. When bitches are fighting, they like see red, and they do not care. 

If that police officer DID NOT manage the situation in this way, and that dog attacked another person while they are all standing there. First off, it is easier to dispatch a dog when it is not engaged in chewing up someone -- there is less danger of bullets penetrating the victim. But if the thing attacked another person, then everyone would have been angry with the officer for not taking the shot when he had it. 

So unless you are right there, saw the injuries, saw the dog, saw the people, then you really cannot make any call to crucify the officer. Yes, police officers make mistakes. Yes, sometimes they go way too far. But from what I have heard so far, the police officer did the owners a favor. Now they do not have to make the decision to put their pet down. That is cold, yes. But they are in deep doo doo, normally, the dog doesn't come away from these sitautions. 

The owners of the dog are completely at fault. I do not buy it that the dog never aggressed at its property line before. It may not have bitten anyone, but I am willing to bet that the dog charged down barking and growling at people NEAR his property. If the dog was behind a solid fence, that behavior while not desireable, is manageable. When there is nothing between the dog and the people but a bit of invisible wire, the behavior is simply a time bomb. It is not whether the dog attacks someone, but rather when the dog attacks someone. 

Foolish. It is good that the dog is dead. THAT dog will not cause any more injuries. People, we ALL love dogs, else we would be elsewhere. It is not good enough to love dogs. Every single time someone foolishly allows their animal to bite another dog or human, another nail gets pounded into our ability to own large, powerful, intelligent dogs. Breed bans, limit laws, size limits on dogs, homeowner's insurance rates/willing to insure -- all are affected by these ignorant people's foolishness. 

I get the opinion that people are minimizing the child's injury and blaming the child for the dog's biting her and ultimately the dog's death. Dogs are considered an attractive nuisance, which is to say that children will not follow common sense and will press forward to pet a dog with or without permision. We owners have to protect children from our dogs. 

Lastly, when you place blame on the cop and on the kid, you are missing the one that needs the blame, the owner. If the owner feels that the cop acted prematurely, or that the kid should not have bent over the dog, the owner does not understand what she did wrong and will repeat the mistake. Placing the responsibility squarely on the owner of the dog will make others evaluate their containment methods to assure that their dogs are not able to do anything similar. You will never stop children from advancing toward dogs, leaning over them, petting them, etc.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why can't the police use a tranq gun when they know they are responding to a situation such as this. Then they would be covered, but not actually kill the dog.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlWhy can't the police use a tranq gun when they know they are responding to a situation such as this. Then they would be covered, but not actually kill the dog.


do you mean tasar? the officer had to make split second decision it is not fair to armchair quarterback him


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI am interested in knowing how old you are. If you are like, sixteen, my answer would be a little less harsh.
> But as I do not know, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Lastly, when you place blame on the cop and on the kid, you are missing the one that needs the blame, the owner. If the owner feels that the cop acted prematurely, or that the kid should not have bent over the dog, the owner does not understand what she did wrong and will repeat the mistake. Placing the responsibility squarely on the owner of the dog will make others evaluate their containment methods to assure that their dogs are not able to do anything similar. You will never stop children from advancing toward dogs, leaning over them, petting them, etc.


Thank you for this response. You can't argue against this, you stole the words right out of my mouth.


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## HarleyGirl52874 (Jun 16, 2006)

don't tranq guns go by weight? That could be a reason they do not carry them.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: HarleyGirl52874don't tranq guns go by weight? That could be a reason they do not carry them.


lets see, radio, pepper spray, gun, magazines, baton, cuffs, knife, tazar, body armor. Yea lets see if we can put a tranquilizer dart gun on his belt as well


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## HarleyGirl52874 (Jun 16, 2006)

I have to add, that I think my biggest problem with the child or maybe I should say any kid, is that I have taught my son not to do certain things, no matter what. One being not to mess with a dog, even if you know him with out the owner around. I guess I hold kids to the standard I have for my son and I am wrong for that.

Without a doubt it is horrible that this happened to the child, and the little girl will now probably have issues with dogs for the rest of her life, or have a fear of them that she will have to over come.

Now I fully hold the owner of the dog at fault. without a doubt there. If you know that kids are walking home from school, don't let your dog out till they are gone, or go out with the dog on leash, etc. I go through this daily after school cuz there are kids all over my neighborhood. BUT, even though I know kids will be kids and do tend to forget what they are told, I partly hold the childs parents as part of this also. Too many parents do not stress the importance of being respectfull of others, be it, respecting a dogs area and not to run up and "play" with a strange dog, to staying out of other peoples property, again I deal with on a daily basis. I have even told the parents I don't want their kids in my yard.

I mean my best friend lives behind me and I have even told her daughter to stay out of my yard unless I am out there.


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## HarleyGirl52874 (Jun 16, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: HarleyGirl52874don't tranq guns go by weight? That could be a reason they do not carry them.
> ...



Never said they should carry them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, all kids should be educated (perferably by knowledgeable parents) how to act around dogs. The problem is that all kids do not have caring parents, they do not necessarily have parents, some have only one, some have none. 

Some parents are plain clueless. Some are just trying to make ends meet and get the kid to school every day. 

When I see a parent teaching their child how to behave around a dog, it makes me smile. Unfortunately, it is far more common for me to hear a parent say "it's a German Shepherd, it will bite you." 

The bottom line is that dog owners cannot count on children's parents educating their kids well enough to make them safe around your dog. So if you love your dog, make it safe for children, whatever that entails.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Regardless of what children are taught. It is still the owners responseability to watch that dog in the front yard, (that has been zapped before, we will not go there though). 

If I remember right, one child knew the dog, so the other thought it was OK for them too. I can see even my boys doing this, if their friend knew the dog. And my boys are taught to always ask before petting a dog. So, I am not sure what they would do if they saw their friend not getting hurt and petting a dog...tomorrow would be a good time to ask,


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzerThere is no reason anyone should fence three acres for their dog. A dog does not need to roam on three acres to be happy. Though I live in the country and have many acres behind me of county property, I only own 1 acre. Some of that is inaccessible down in the ravine. There is way more front yard than back yard, and I only have the back fenced. Maybe a quarter of an acre. Within this are the kennels.
> 
> Fencing a large piece of property would take vigilence to ensure that there are no hazards to the dogs, and that the fence did not have wear and tear that might mean your dogs are running loose.
> 
> You can be upset, but an electric fence gives you zero protection from wild animals and other people's animals. After it happens, you can reflect on it, and decide whether it was worth the risk. You are already limiting the risk by being out there with them.


Never said the whole 3 acres were done in the invisafence,
I was making a statement because you said a fence was better.

As I stated before My dogs are never outside unless one or both of us are with them. 
If you don't have an e-fence you really shouldn't be making comments. I live in a small town and really don't have to worry about uninvted people coming in my yard


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: HarleyGirl52874I have to add, that I think my biggest problem with the child or maybe I should say any kid, is that I have taught my son not to do certain things, no matter what. One being not to mess with a dog, even if you know him with out the owner around. I guess I hold kids to the standard I have for my son and I am wrong for that.
> 
> Without a doubt it is horrible that this happened to the child, and the little girl will now probably have issues with dogs for the rest of her life, or have a fear of them that she will have to over come.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that response


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think a lot of people, especially non-dog owners, don't know that invisible fences exist. I only do because I worked at petsmart and we sold them. Even though I have a german shepherd now, I don't think I would have ever known they existed if I didn't work there.

To the children, there was no fence at all, and they might have been under the impression that the dog was simply friendly and tame enough to roam free on the front lawn with nobody watching. I think invisible fences are a great idea, but if you're dog is territorial I think you should invest in something that will help keep people away from your dog that is as good as what you're using to keep your dog away from people(like, uhm, your BACKyard?). These children were wrong for trespassing, but I think a lot of people don't think for a second about crossing your front lawn to get somewhere faster, or running onto your lawn to pick up a ball they might have accidentally thrown over there, or walking across your front lawn to get to your door(even though that's rude). Where I live, I'm pretty sure the first 4 feet of your property belongs to the city anyway. I see kids learning to bike and accidentally swerving and falling onto our lawn all the time in summer.

If you extend the invisible fence all the way to the sidewalk, I think that's just way too close to people that your dog might see as a threat. You can't hang a 'Beware of Dog' sign on an invisible fence.... Even if I knew the person had an invisible fence to contain their dog but their dog liked to patrol and bark like that, I'd be pretty nervous about going anywhere near that place.


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## GSDTrain (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcFirst of all I don't care if the child knew the dog and adored him/her they should not have gone up to the dog he was protecting his territory.
> 
> I feel bad for the child and the police had NO right to shot the dog.
> 
> ...


i couldn't of said it better. i have to agree with you 100%.


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## GSDTrain (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SyaoransbearI think a lot of people, especially non-dog owners, don't know that invisible fences exist. I only do because I worked at petsmart and we sold them. Even though I have a german shepherd now, I don't think I would have ever known they existed if I didn't work there.
> 
> To the children, there was no fence at all, and they might have been under the impression that the dog was simply friendly and tame enough to roam free on the front lawn with nobody watching. I think invisible fences are a great idea, but if you're dog is territorial I think you should invest in something that will help keep people away from your dog that is as good as what you're using to keep your dog away from people(like, uhm, your BACKyard?). These children were wrong for trespassing, but I think a lot of people don't think for a second about crossing your front lawn to get somewhere faster, or running onto your lawn to pick up a ball they might have accidentally thrown over there, or walking across your front lawn to get to your door(even though that's rude). Where I live, I'm pretty sure the first 4 feet of your property belongs to the city anyway. I see kids learning to bike and accidentally swerving and falling onto our lawn all the time in summer.
> 
> If you extend the invisible fence all the way to the sidewalk, I think that's just way too close to people that your dog might see as a threat. You can't hang a 'Beware of Dog' sign on an invisible fence.... Even if I knew the person had an invisible fence to contain their dog but their dog liked to patrol and bark like that, I'd be pretty nervous about going anywhere near that place.


we have a sign on our mailbox post that says we have invisible fencing. we got it when the fence was installed. it came free with the installment


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: littledmc
> If you don't have an e-fence you really shouldn't be making comments.


Respectfully, I disagree. I and my dogs are routinely charged by dogs on e-fences where the fence extends within inches of the sidewalk. Luckily, my dogs are not at all reactive or dog aggressive, and when we walk we are _walking_, only on the sidewalk and not up into people's yards. I actually make a point of routinely walking by these houses to see my dog's maintain their cool and keep them trained to totally ignore a pack of other dogs yapping and lunging inches from their face (and hopefully the owners will eventually see how ridiculous it is). But what if I was working with a fearful dog, or I myself was afraid of dogs?

A dog and/or an e-fence is just like a lot of other things on one's property (pool, dock, trampoline...). Even if people tresspass the owners are still liable for a lot of things that can happen. My friend lives on a small lake and her parents were sued b/c some kids broke onto their property, jumped off their dock, and got hurt b/c it was too shallow. The friend's parents were liable for not having a "NO DIVING" sign on private property. Likewise there was a case this summer where a little girl opened someone's gate, fell in their pool, and drowned. The pool owners were being sued because their gates didn't lock. Unfortunately this is just the litigious nature of the country we live in. An animal is no different and every owner needs to assume that the worst COULD happen and then manage the environment to prevent that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Quote by littledmc:
"Never said the whole 3 acres were done in the invisafence,
I was making a statement because you said a fence was better.

As I stated before My dogs are never outside unless one or both of us are with them. 
If you don't have an e-fence you really shouldn't be making comments. I live in a small town and really don't have to worry about uninvted people coming in my yard "

**************************************************
So people who don't breed dogs, don't have any business making comments to people who are concidering it?

People who don't chain their dogs, really shouldn't be making comments about chaining?

I think you can get my drift.

Several times I acknowledged that you are limiting the risk by being out there with your dog. I really do not see the point of an e-fence under those circumstances. In my front yard, my dogs do not go unless I am out there. They do not wear a bulky collar that zaps them. They listen to me when I tell them to come. They learn the boundaries again if they step over. But I do not let them be out there when I am not out there. And I only allow one out front with me at a time. If a dog will obey a fence, they will obey you. So I do not see the point. 

If the dog will not obey you, then I have misgivings about a dog not challenging the fence. However, I have seen how mine respect the cattle wire, so I am sure that there are many dogs that will NOT go through an e-fence. The problem is, that you will never know, at least not for several years, whether your dog is one of those that won't. Given the right prize -- no way would I risk it. 

Letting your dog charge the "invisible" fenceline is dangerous and inconsiderate. That is my opinion and I am entitled to share it. Some little old lady may not have read the notice on your mail box. She is not "stupid." If she fell and broke a hip because of your dog, you may or may not be legally liable, but as a human being you would have to FEEL something. 

And what about a child, being charged by a dog, scared, and darts out into the street and gets creamed by an auto? 

You may know your town. But the thing about towns is people move in and move out. Today you have no one who was fussed about your dog. Tomorrow may be a different story. 

If you are out there with your dog, train him NOT to charge the fenceline. 

And if the police see your dog charging your fenceline and open fire, then oh well, sorry, but you are at fault.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: HarleyGirl52874don't tranq guns go by weight? That could be a reason they do not carry them.
> ...


 If the cop knew they were responding to a situation like this, yes they pull out the weapon of choice from their vehicle for the situation. Um cuffs for a dog??



> Quote:Originally Posted By: Liesje Originally Posted By: littledmc
> If you don't have an e-fence you really shouldn't be making comments.
> Respectfully, I disagree. I and my dogs are routinely charged by dogs on e-fences where the fence extends within inches of the sidewalk. Luckily, my dogs are not at all reactive or dog aggressive, and when we walk we are walking, only on the sidewalk and not up into people's yards. I actually make a point of routinely walking by these houses to see my dog's maintain their cool and keep them trained to totally ignore a pack of other dogs yapping and lunging inches from their face (and hopefully the owners will eventually see how ridiculous it is). But what if I was working with a fearful dog, or I myself was afraid of dogs?


I was walking my dogs and one charged us after the owner saw her dog get all exited in the window, let it out to charge us. My dogs are reactive, and the road was icy. I raised my hands after I got my dogs under control and mouthed some harsh words to the lady after she watched the show she created. This is one time I was very glad to have them on a pinch collar...


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