# Please help me....



## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Hello,

I have a 9 months male German shepherd. I take him to the training for basic obedience. My trainer is number one trainer in the USA. He put a choking collar around his neck and told me to give him correction. My dog is not neutered yet but I am planning on neutering him this Tuesday. Two weeks ago he started becoming aggressive towards me. One day he was sitting next to me on the couch, trying to sleep, so I went to pet him on his back and face and all the sudden he growled at me and bit my finger but I was fast enough to hold the leash and give him a correction. He almost cried from pain and me too. yesterday, I was sitting on the couch, my dog was laying down on the floor and also was sleeping or trying to sleep. His head was in between his arms. I went to pet him on his back, and all the sudden he attacked me. He jumped on the couch and started biting me. I could not push them off, I had to scream for my father to come and he had to kick my dog to get him off of me. He gave serious deep cuts on both hands and one of them is swallow. I really dont know what to do. My dog is fine most of the time, when I take him to walk in park he is good, in backyard he plays with me, I noticed that he acts weird when he is laying down on the floor or couch. Should I give him away? please help


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

That's very very scary behavior and you should be extremely concerned. First of all, you should asap get a good personal trainer involved. Secondly, there is something about you that is causing him to react that way, be it dominence or fear aggression, whatever. I highly suggest that you immediately stop touching him AT ALL. Don't make any eye contact AT ALL for the time being, until and if you can get this fixed. In addition to fixing the dog's behavior, you need to be thinking of your own safety! He bites when you touch and will probably do so at some point when you're even near. Keep a decent and respectful distance, no touch and no eye contact... get a trainer. I hope this resolves well.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i am no expert on training but have had shepherds all my life. first i will say to you that you have a very serious problem, a problem that you MUST NOT GIVE AWAY TO SOMEONE ELSE. i know other people who have more experience than i do will post here with their opinions but for now here is mine...first of all a complete veterinary work-up is in order to make sure there is nothing physically wrong with your dog. it seems that from what you describe his aggressive behavior is always when he's been sleeping or trying to sleep, so i strongly suggest that for now you NOT bother him or touch him at those times. if you want him to come to you or move somewhere call his name to wake him or get his attention and go from there. i don't know who your "trainer" is but there is no "#1 trainer in the usa", there are many good ones and many not so good ones, and some really, really foolish and bad ones. severe correction methods are no longer fashionable in the training world and positive motivation is the way it's done now. there is alot of training knowledge on this board and i hope others post their opinions here, but i will say that my personal belief is that unless you find there is a very good reason for him attacking you, a reason that you can without a single doubt identify and correct, then you will need to make absolutely certain that this never happens to you or anyone else again, and the only way to do that is by humane euthinasia. if a german shepherd dog has a faulty temperment and the owner cannot trust them this is the only solution. having a dog like this (if it is a genetic faulty temperment), is the same as having a loaded weapon that you never know when it's going to go off. PLEASE, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU PASS THIS PROBLEM ON TO SOMEONE ELSE.

also, make sure you see a doctor and get antibiotics for your wounds, i can tell you from personal experience that they can become infected with a life threatening bacteria very, very quickly. has your dog has his puppy shots? also, where did you get him...if you got him from a breeder have you spoken to them?

please be careful with this dog.


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Hey, sorry for the barrage here... On rereading your story, it seems to me that he is asserting his dominence and being a bit territorial about his place on the floor or couch. That's my guess. 

Also, when I wrote the no touch/no eyes/keep a distance comment, I should have also mentioned that even while doing those, you must remain confident, upright in posture and not show (and preferably even feel) fear. He'll likely get worse if you cower, but staying away in an uninterested manner is appropriate. He may even try to get more affectionate just because you're being coy.


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

katieliz said:


> there is alot of training knowledge on this board and i hope others post their opinions here, but i will say that my personal belief is that unless you find there is a very good reason for him attacking you, a reason that you can without a single doubt identify and correct, then you will need to make absolutely certain that this never happens to you or anyone else again, and the only way to do that is by humane euthinasia. if a german shepherd dog has a faulty temperment and the owner cannot trust them this is the only solution.


Unfortunately, what she says is true. I DO hope that a great and at-your- house personal trainer or as suggested a complete evaluation by your vet with you describing in detail what goes down happens really fast. We adopted a rescue dog a few months ago, before we got our puppy Max and he bonded well with me, but there were a couple of scary biting moments before he accepted me. Two days later and zero provocation, he viciously attacked my fiance' and tore her face and arms up very badly... 27 stitches in the cheek!!! I called the rescue people and my excellent Vet, both did not hesitate to tell me that he needed to be put down and that he was a ticking time bomb. What a sad set of events that was. Sarah is still extremely traumatized emotionally over the attack and still has nightmares about it.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Take your dog to the VET! Have a thorough evaluation done on him. Anything from thyroid to epilepsy could cause episodes that are unprovoked with no warning.

If the cause can not be found, and he continues to attack, then please follow katieliz's advice and do what is kindest for him.


----------



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I absolutely agree with Jax.

The very first step here needs to be an appointment with your veterinarian. Explain to the vet what has happened and in which situations it has happened, and request that the vet do a thorough exam to rule out any physical causes of this behavior. A good dog, when in pain, can lash out, and before you address it as "behavior", you need to make sure that it's not medical.

In both the situation you describe, you woke the dog up while he was sleeping. I guess my next question would be, has he ever acted this way with you when you went to pet him while he was awake? If not, it may just be that your dog was asleep, and your sudden petting, rubbing, touching, leaning over him, whatever may have startled him awake and this is his first reaction. 

I can tell you for a fact that my Malinois is the sweetest, cuddliest Velcro dog you can imagine, but she is also a very deep sleeper and she does get startled if someone were to walk up and pet her when asleep. Think about what you would do if you were fast asleep, and someone is suddenly bending over you, touching you. You'd wake up and, in your half-awake state, probably freak out and scream or push the person away. That's very much what my Malinois does if she is startled when asleep, except, being a dog, she would snap instead of push. Easy solution - we leave her alone when she's asleep or call her name to wake her up. (Simple, too.)

Lastly, I think your household needs to work on leadership roles. You have a young male dog who is just starting to enter his "teenage" phase and who will be testing the boundaries quite a bit as he goes through this. Now is a good time to really step up NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) training with him to establish where you rank in the household and where he does. No more sleeping on the couch, either, for the time being!

I would also find a better trainer. Dogs are incredibly smart, and anyone who slaps a choke collar on the dog and then "corrects" the dog for doing the "wrong" thing without ever having taught the dog what the "right" thing to do is, is no trainer.


----------



## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

We are not touching him when he is on the couch or sleeping. He has had all his puppy shots including rabies. Is it necessary to go see the doctor and get antibiotics for my wound? Also, he bit my dad last week while my dad was trying to pick up a piece of chicken to feed it to him. Also my dad got a deep cut. 
My dog knows us, I don t know about faulty temperament but he gets happy when he sees us. And when I walk him he always walks by my side and follow me wherever I go. So neutering him will not fix the problem right? 
I will take him to the doctor to do a full check up on him. 
The trainer name is Carlos Rojas, he has put a choking collar with spikes around my dog's neck and told me to give him correction. I don't know I don't want to put him down


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

If he's only doing this when he's sleeping, then this is called sleep aggression and there's very little you can do about it other than crate him when sleeping or make sure you wake him up from a distance before touching him. This is an extremely common problem in greyhounds.

If he's doing this when he's awake but lying down, then this is just plain bad dog behavior and I would set him up for correction and correct the snot out of him. You can praise him for being good once he doesn't react badly.


----------



## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

As others have strongly recommended, first get a very thorough physical exam done with your vet, including radiographs of his hips and back. Even young dogs can experience pain and stiffness from arthritis, displaysia, and/or pannus. Both of the examples of aggression you cited involved him being touched on the back while he was resting/sleeping. Perhaps he was startled or woke up painful, and overreacted to the stimulus. Assuming he is healthy, your next step is to find a BEHAVIORIST, not a trainer. A good trainer will know a good deal about motivation and behavior modification, but a canine behaviorist is specially trained and focused on identifying causes and working out solutions to problem behavior, like aggression. Even if your dog woke up painful, the attack on you was simply unacceptable and very dangerous. He needs a professional,experienced behaviorist to work with both your dog and your family to try to reach a workable solution out for everyone. Sometimes that happens: you say your dog is very good on walks and such, so perhaps there is something about being inside or crowded or in close quarters that makes him react negatively. If his "trigger" can be identified and worked with properly early, hopefully you and your dog will have a good outcome and long happy life together.


----------



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Uh ... I'm confused. In your last post you said, 



> We are not touching him when he is on the couch or sleeping.


But before that, in the original post, you said, 



> he was sitting next to me on the couch, trying to sleep, so I went to pet him on his back and face and all the sudden he growled at me and bit my finger


 and


> my dog was laying down on the floor and also was sleeping or trying to sleep. His head was in between his arms. I went to pet him on his back, and all the sudden he attacked me.


So do you pet your dog when he is asleep or not?



> he has put a choking collar with spikes around my dog's neck and told me to give him correction


Are you talking about a prong collar? Chokes don't have "spikes".
http://yovia.com/blogs/dogtraining101/files/2010/01/dog_prong_collar-730056.jpg

Sounds like you're not learning much from your "trainer" if the only thing you've been shown is to correct the dog.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

abby, I "think" she meant they aren't petting him NOW, after these incidents when he's on the couch or sleeping?? (atleast that's what Im understanding)


If the bite wounds are serious, I would seek out a doctor, however, be warned a doctor by law, will have to report the bites to local Animal Control, at which time they will most likely have the dog quarantined.

I would like to know what your trainer has told you, suggested after you told him about the bite incidents? And if you haven't told him, why not? Did you get the dog from your trainer?


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

The newly described incident with your Dad makes me even more worried. The fact that he seems happy to see you has nothing at all to do with the intensely aggressive behavior he displays. That behavior is not something he seems to be able to control and sadly points to a possible fatal personality disorder. Get to the Vet as an emergency tomorrow, not Tuesday and have him hlm/her help you make the best decision for all. Really, tomorrow. I hope this turns out ok.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Where did you get your boy? What is his breeding?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

samba they said they train with carlos rojas, am wondering if the dog came from him as well?


----------



## ba1614 (Feb 17, 2010)

Man, this situation has baaaad trouble wrote all over it.

Good luck Delta, you've gotten advice from some who know much more about it than I, Please take it or your poor dog could wind up in a heap of trouble


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

ba1614 said:


> Man, this situation has baaaad trouble wrote all over it.
> 
> Good luck Delta, you've gotten advice from some who know much more about it than I, Please take it or your poor dog could wind up in a heap of trouble


The dog is already in a heap of trouble. I'm now concerned about chunks of human faces being bitten off! Not being alarmist, btw, it happens too often and it needs to be dealt with IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!! Please.


----------



## showshepherds4me (Jun 2, 2010)

I agree that the dog needs to go to the vet/ Please tell the vet ahead of time that the dog bites so they can take appropriate safety measures. Second I think you may be "over dogged". This dog may need a more dominate person as the pack leader. This behavior has worked for him and he is now the dominant one. Yanking on a prong collar will not assert your dominance. As a trainer, I would never put a prong on a dog without teaching the handler how to effectively use it and after the dog has had enough training to know what the handler is asking. A prong collar with corrections is a very excellent training tool if used correctly. The old trainers used only compulsion (harsh corrections) and now reward, toys, and appropriate corrections are used. Training is a sloooooow process to get the results you want. Sometimes esp. if the trainer sold you the dog, they want quick results. Right now this dog is dangerous and should be in a crate when not being worked or played with. But IMHO this dog is not reacting to the prong collar. (I agree that it must have been a prong collar not a choke chain)


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

showshepherds4me said:


> I agree that the dog needs to go to the vet/ Please tell the vet ahead of time that the dog bites so they can take appropriate safety measures. Second I think you may be "over dogged". This dog may need a more dominate person as the pack leader. This behavior has worked for him and he is now the dominant one. Yanking on a prong collar will not assert your dominance. As a trainer, I would never put a prong on a dog without teaching the handler how to effectively use it and after the dog has had enough training to know what the handler is asking. A prong collar with corrections is a very excellent training tool if used correctly. The old trainers used only compulsion (harsh corrections) and now reward, toys, and appropriate corrections are used. Training is a sloooooow process to get the results you want. Sometimes esp. if the trainer sold you the dog, they want quick results. Right now this dog is dangerous and should be in a crate when not being worked or played with. But IMHO this dog is not reacting to the prong collar. (I agree that it must have been a prong collar not a choke chain)


Sorry, but this is waaaay beyond a collar issue. The only thing that MUST be focused on now is getting an evaluation done immediately by a behaviorist and making the right decision. Period.


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

OK, breaking out the hard reality... 

My beautiful Sarah a couple of weeks after the attack:


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Poor "sweet little Manny", the rescue dog who now lives in heaven:


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Relayer said:


> Poor "sweet little Manny", the rescue dog who now lives in heaven:


Let's try that again...


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

to the OP, about your (and your dad's) injuries needing antibiotics: YES, YES, YES! you must see a doctor no matter how small the bite. here is what happened to me. i broke up a dog fight between my two bitches and in the process sustained a VERY SMALL, i mean VERY SMALL, bite in the fleshy skin between my thumb and forefinger. it was so small that i couldn't believe i should get antibiotics, even tho i am a retired medical professional. for six days it looked fine, on the seventh day my entire hand became swollen and red (looked like a lobster claw, no kidding), i went to an emergency clinic who sent me directly to the hospital where i spent the next two days as an inpatient on IV antibiotics. this is something called septicemia or blood poisioning and you can die from it. they told me that if the IV antibiotics did not take care of it in 48 hours they would have to cut my hand open and irrigate it directly with antibiotic solution, or that i could loose my hand entirely. this incident gave me enormous respect for the damage even a very small dog bite can do. please, please see a doctor.

i also want to second the opinion that you need a "behaviorist" rather than a trainer, i had forgotten that, and there is a huge difference.

i know you don't want to loose your dog but the person who posted to this thread that you have a "ticking time bomb" is absolutely correct. 

please keep posting and let us know how you are and what is happening. whatever happens you can gain so much knowledge and support here.

what is your dog's name, can you post a picture?

even though some of what i (and others) have said might be hard for you to hear, i really wish only good things for you and your dog and hope that my worst fears about the situation are unfounded. take care (and go to the doc).


----------



## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

What Katieliz said! To add a little... please do stay in touch. You have touched the hearts of a lot of great dog people here. Through thick and thin, I have little doubt that you can count on loads of support here. Best!!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think it would help to know where the dog is from, and what background there is before thinking in our minds, oh, this is definitely not going to go well. There are dogs I can take and do well with, dogs I can take and make worse. They go to someone else (qualified - not a pet owner) and voila, they are charmers. 

And since none of us can see it, a behaviorist is definitely where to go with the dog. Do you know of any in your area? Guessing NJ. In addition to the vet, the behaviorist there is this service: PETFAX Behavior Consultation: Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University

Aggression Types | k9aggression.com has some more information. 

Keep us posted.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

valuable resources for the OP jean, thank you! you are right, always important to have background info before jumping to conclusions, and i tried to word my post(s) to reflect the limited info given. my largest concern is for the current and potential human injuries.


----------



## showshepherds4me (Jun 2, 2010)

_


showshepherds4me said:



I agree that the dog needs to go to the vet/ Please tell the vet ahead of time that the dog bites so they can take appropriate safety measures. Right now this dog is dangerous and should be in a crate when not being worked or played with. But IMHO this dog is not reacting to the prong collar.

Click to expand...

_


showshepherds4me said:


> I do not think this dog has a collar issue. The dog is *dangerous *and she needs a dog professional. I was trying to explain that she did not cause the dog to act this way by putting on a prong collar.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

she may not have cause the dog to act this way by putting a prong collar on it, however, how is she 'using' that prong collar? I guess that would be my question.

I totally agree with seeing a behaviorist or talking to her trainer, her trainer is pretty well known.


----------



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Great post Jean! And I agree with Jakoda....so reading the original post...the correction caused pain. (proper correction with a prong supposed to cause pain? asking because I don't use one) Also...the prong and leash were on the dog...he was in the house sleeping...so are the prong and leash always on the dog? Has his corrections caused him pain the past? The OP was reaching toward the neck area to pet...could he be aware he has that prong on....reaching for that area of the prong...could mean a correction...which causes pain...in his mind? just wondering.........


----------



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

so...what I'm saying is...has he been conditioned that reaching for that area = pain? 

I agree...a good behavioralist.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Myamom said:


> (proper correction with a prong supposed to cause pain? asking because I don't use one)


No! A properly used prong collar is NOT supposed to cause pain. It should be no more than an uncomfortable pinch at the most but never should it be enough to make a dog react with aggressiveness.

1) Go the vet for a thorough examination!
2) Find a good behaviorist to find the cause and work with it.

Nobody is telling you to immediately euthanize your dog. None of us want to see that happen so I hope you didn't take any of our posts in that way. But the harsh reality is that a small percentage of dogs can not be fixed. Before you jump to the conclusion that yours is in that group from our post, please start with a medical exam and professional help. He could be acting this way for many reasons and NONE of us know what that reason is.:hugs:


----------



## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

I use a prong on my girl on walks and have corrected her with it, and she has never indicated any pain at all. Also, absolutely no aggression issues as a result. Scary situation - I feel for you.


----------



## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

delta7 said:


> Hello,
> 
> [...] *My trainer is number one trainer in the USA. He put a choking collar around his neck and told me to give him correction.* [...]


This statement blew me away! What the **** is that kind of training!!!

#1) Run away from this guy!

#2) take an appointement to the cet to check if your dog is healthy and he is not in pain for somewhat reason

#3) see a *NEW* behaviorist/trainer.

From what I understood from this satement, your trainer asked you to "correct" your dog without any reason? Just to show "who's the boss"?

Have you do this many times? What else your trainer asked you to do?

This is just a personnal opinion, but I think your dog learned to hate you. You mean harm to him. Each time you work together, he gets hurt for a reason or not.

He don't want you to touch him again. He is efraid of what could happen because he is punished each time you interact with him. This may be a cause of its agression.

But, you should also see a vet because he may have health problem too....

I hope you will solve this problem, keep us posted.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Her dog attacked while he was sleeping. It had nothing to do with the prong collar so telling this person that they mean to harm their dog and have made their dog hate them is entirely out of line and unfair. 

I use prong collars and can guarantee that none of my dogs hate me or are scared of me. Prong collars do NOT hurt a dog, in fact, there are studies done that show they cause less harm then choke chain correction collars. 

Would you rather be choked? Or pinched? Does a mother dog choke her puppies? Nope. Does she nip them in the neck? Yes. Do the littermates nip in the neck? Yes. Does a prong collar act like a nip? Yes.


----------



## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Her dog attacked while he was sleeping. It had nothing to do with the prong collar so telling this person that they mean to harm their dog and have made their dog hate them is entirely out of line and unfair.
> 
> I use prong collars and can guarantee that none of my dogs hate me or are scared of me. Prong collars do NOT hurt a dog, in fact, there are studies done that show they cause less harm then choke chain correction collars.
> 
> Would you rather be choked? Or pinched? Does a mother dog choke her puppies? Nope. Does she nip them in the neck? Yes. Do the littermates nip in the neck? Yes. Does a prong collar act like a nip? Yes.


Maybe it could be helpfull when well use....but from the statement here, the trainer asked to choke the dog without any reason, this looks fair to you?

"Hey, put him this collar and choke him"....that's a great way to educate a dog! 

You seem to know how to use this collar with your dogs because it works great for you. 

But, if the reason of agressions of this dog is not related to health, I beleive it could be related to fear and from what I've read in its forst post, this dog only acts agressive toward its owner so.....

Just to make sure: *I do not blame the owner here*. I do not think he is a bad owner or something  Obvioulsy, he is trying to do something to solve the problem, and I, like others, try to help. 

From what I understand, the method of training here is wrong, no matter what the tools are.


----------



## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

The point was...that maybe this prong is not being used correctly and that the dog may now associate reaching toward that area with pain.


----------



## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Trish, by the way the post is written, I don't think english is the posters first language. I didn't read it as the trainer recommended correcting the dog for no reason at all but instead was trying to show the OP how to correct the dog when he shows inappropriate behavior. I hope that I inferred that correctly.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If that is what happened then Yes, it is unfair, incorrect and terrible training. My assumption would be that in the course of a session the trainer showed the person how to use the prong collar correctly. However, none of us know what the whole story is on this particular part of the story nor do we know a cause for the behavior being exhibited. So to say the dog is scared of the owner and thinks the owner means him harm is not a fair statement given all the assumptions that have to be made to come to that theory or any other theory in this thread.

I'll say again...the steps in this process should be

1) Vet
2) Behaviorist

Because none of us know what is causing this behavior and we can only make assumptions.

I am a firm believer that treating aggression with an aggressive correction will only ramp the dog up and make it worse and I would NOT use a prong collar to correct him. A behaviorist will be vital in this situation regardless of what the medical diagnosis is because he has learned that if he bites then he is left alone and he got what he wanted.


----------



## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Trish, by the way the post is written, I don't think english is the posters first language. I didn't read it as the trainer recommended correcting the dog for no reason at all but instead was trying to show the OP how to correct the dog when he shows inappropriate behavior. I hope that I inferred that correctly.


Oh all right! Thank you for the precision. English isn't my first language too, so maybe I mistunderstood. 



Jax08 said:


> If that is what happened then Yes, it is unfair, incorrect and terrible training. My assumption would be that in the course of a session the trainer showed the person how to use the prong collar correctly. However, none of us know what the whole story is on this particular part of the story nor do we know a cause for the behavior being exhibited. So to say the dog is scared of the owner and thinks the owner means him harm is not a fair statement given all the assumptions that have to be made to come to that theory or any other theory in this thread.
> 
> I'll say again...the steps in this process should be
> 
> ...


Exactly my thoughts, sorry if it wasn't clear


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just an FYI for the OP....I did have a foster that a prong collar was beyond his threshold and he was reactive to it. He was ONLY reactive when the prong was being used and he did no more than mouth my hand to tell me he was not okay with it. The severity of the attack on you leads me to believe there is something else going on with your dog.


----------



## ThorDog (Feb 12, 2010)

Have you taken your dog to the vet yet? Reading all the posts on aggression it could be a thyroid issue, it would be good to rule out phisical reasons for this aggression. This is just not acceptable behavior. And yes, take care of your wounds no matter how small, I got a small bite once and my whole arm inflated like a baloon (not from my dogs). Where did you purchase your dog?


----------

