# How to untrain and automatic out?



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

So Floki does an automatic out whenever we touch an item he has, including tug toys we don’t want him to out. He will play tug with the dogs, but not with us. He will latch on and death shake and not out if it’s on a flirt pole, but we can take the same tug off, and he will chase it, bring it back, and automatically drop it, or out it if we touch it. We did not train him to do this. Is there a way to get him engaged?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

That's an interesting one. Never had to deal with that. OK, a little brain storming here: maybe I would turn away and leave him as soon as he outs. Or play with the toy yourself and when he is hyped up, hold onto it when he grabs it and gently tug and praise him, let him have the toy. Teach him the command for 'out' in the meantime. Say it as soon as he opens his mouth. Then praise him for doing so. He will learn that he can out as soon as he hears the command. Is this the new dog? Maybe he is still too polite? In never use treats with these tug and fetch exercises as it will take the focus on the toy away. Keep us posted, I like to know what works.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sounds like he is engaging with you by bringing it back for you to throw again? You need to create the same drive he has when it's on the flirt pole or you can teach him a hold command.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> That's an interesting one. Never had to deal with that. OK, a little brain storming here: maybe I would turn away and leave him as soon as he outs. Or play with the toy yourself and when he is hyped up, hold onto it when he grabs it and gently tug and praise him, let him have the toy. Teach him the command for 'out' in the meantime. Say it as soon as he opens his mouth. Then praise him for doing so. He will learn that he can out as soon as he hears the command. Is this the new dog? Maybe he is still too polite? In never use treats with these tug and fetch exercises as it will take the focus on the toy away. Keep us posted, I like to know what works.


Yes, this is the newest one. I swear he’s a cat. If I throw, and he grabs it, and I give a yes or good boy, he outs it immediately. He also will do an out when given the command if he has the kids shoe or something else he shouldn’t have. I just say out, and he outs no problem. We don’t train with treats for basic commands, he is into praise way more than treats. If I’m teaching him something a little more difficult, I’ll whip out the treat, otherwise, he gets praise (yes!) and a quick rundown (brief full body pet). 

I may just suck at engaging. Lyka still does not play with a single toy to this day. I can make her, but she doesn’t enjoy it in the least, so I stopped. But Crios and Seiran have zero issues engaging. I’d ask my trainer, but he’s overseas doing some kind of training workshop. 

Seiran knows the out command, and she outs when given the command, otherwise she will tug with us (before the poisoning, she’s still not 100%). He’s watched Seiran do it, but every single time we give praise or touch his tug, he outs it. I’ve taught plenty of outs, never had to unteach an out though! 
@JAX08, he does engage with us, he’s a dream to train, picks up on things almost instantly, and you can see his brain turning while training and playing. It’s just this one thing, and he’s been like this day 1. I’ll look into training a hold, I know that’s what my ex did with his field labs so they didn’t maul a bird before returning it. I just never had any part in the training of those dogs because it was the ex’s thing. He has no problem mouth wise, he opens doors and cupboards with a paracord, so he understands pulling (tugging) to get those open. I’ll look up some hold videos now. Hopefully it can give me some pointers!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I always like to look at training from a different perspective... Train the behavior you want. You're not untraining anything or training to stop something, you simply train a desired alternative. If you want him to tug teach him to tug. As another poster said, build some excitement, tease him with it and really get him amped up wanting it. Praise him for small steps in the right direction. If he learns quickly it shouldn't be too long before he understands and plays this "new" game well! 

You can also teach a hold. But it sounds to me like that isn't really what you're after.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’ve tried a few different things this morning, with zero success. I’m going to try a rope in my hand with a tug on the end (sorta similar to the flirt pole) lure him to it, then slowly shorten the length of the rope. 

Although there is no real reason why I want him to play tug, other than how fun it is with Seiran and Crios, maybe this is just one of those times I let him be the dog he wants to be and just play the way he likes to play with me.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm not sure this will help but when I got Sabs the kids were still pretty little. She really liked to tug and I did not want her flinging a kid, so if the pressure was on her level or lower she would basically just stand and hold. In order to get her to tug you had to lift up a bit. So same game with two different non verbal cues. I didn't initially teach it, but I sure as heck rewarded her for doing it, just shaping a desired behavior.
You might try something similar? Maybe move away as he is approaching until he pushes into you? If he drops it just move away, I bet he follows you with it.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

You need to teach him to tug by doing like others said, building excitement, take the toy or tog and tease it infront of his face, building that energy. I would work on the "drop it" command too. Rollo and I play tug, and I'll say "drop it" and then I pick it up and re-engage. The "drop it" command drives him mad, so he's ready to tug like crazy when we start playing again.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Chuck94! said:


> You need to teach him to tug by doing like others said, building excitement, take the toy or tog and tease it infront of his face, building that energy. I would work on the "drop it" command too. Rollo and I play tug, and I'll say "drop it" and then I pick it up and re-engage. The "drop it" command drives him mad, so he's ready to tug like crazy when we start playing again.


Ha, that’s half the problem. He can take it or leave it, makes no difference to him. If it’s in my hand, he will stay in a sit, but if it’s in my hand too long (all have squeezie inside them or crinkled plastic that makes noise) and I try to engage with the noise and excitement, he lays down like “ain’t no body got time for that.” Really, he’s a great dog otherwise, so I feel like maybe I’m pushing something that doesn’t need to be pushed. We work together on other activities without issue, I just don’t think he’s interested in toys as much as I’m used to Crios and Seiran being into them.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Jchrest said:


> maybe this is just one of those times I let him be the dog he wants to be and just play the way he likes to play with me.


That is exactly what you should do. Especially since he appears to have potential as an outstanding service dog, and quickly releasing an object he brings to you on request would be very important if he becomes your service dog.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

That's weird. Training the out is usually the challenge... can you teach a hold command? He may simply not be toy driven. His low drive may have been a saving grace, as it allowed him to rehomed. But, as he gains confidence, you may see him showing more possession, it can take some time.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Jchrest said:


> I’ve tried a few different things this morning, with zero success. I’m going to try a rope in my hand with a tug on the end (sorta similar to the flirt pole) lure him to it, then slowly shorten the length of the rope.



I would try what you suggested above. Start out a length of rope the same as on your flirt pole. If you tie a short obedience tug to the rope, he won't be able to get a good grip because he is likely to bite the end. Try to tie something to the end of the rope that he can grip well. You could just use the flirt pole itself and gradually shorten up the line while he is tugging/gripping until you can grab what is tied to the flirt pole. Turning away from him as you reel him in might help because this sounds like a submission issue and facing him squared up is going to make him submit easier.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’m wiped out with the cooties the spawn brought home from school, but I’ll get some videos once I’m back on my feet (or behind) and see if that helps.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Teach him to Out when you say it and also to Hold when you don’t want him to drop it.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Woke up feeling a bit better today. I’m going to wait until DH is home and have him sit with Seiran, and go out with Floki and put some of the videos I watched to use and see what happens. I’ll shoot a few videos and post, see if I can get some suggestions here!

I’d like to teach him the hold, as I am prone to dropping things, and since he already has a great (too great sometimes) automatic out, I’m hoping counter training a hold will help with him auto outing with praise or touch.


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