# High Drive, Low Drive, Training



## Safari64 (Apr 29, 2019)

Hi everyone!


I have seen a few posts regarding Drive does not equal Energy. 



I have read that a higher drive can make training easier as they are easily enticed by their drive. ( I may be misunderstanding what I read). I thought I remembered actually reading that a High Drive can be more difficult as well and worse around kids than a low drive. 



How does drive affect going for a hike? 



Is a low drive difficult to train but less likely to nip at kids running around?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IMO most people looking for a great active companion are wanting a medium drive dog. Low drive is not what I would want to work with or even hang out with and super high drive is probably too pushy and too demanding for most pet homes. My dad got an adult female that is medium to medium high drive. She is very good, but sometimes the pushing to play can be a bit much. They do love her, though. If she had been much younger she might have been too much dog for him.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Lower drive dog lets me take a nap, might even join me, while my higher drive dog drops things on me. Kind of like water boarding only with toys.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Nigel said:


> Lower drive dog lets me take a nap, might even join me, while my higher drive dog drops things on me. Kind of like water boarding only with toys.


LOL great description!

My advice would be forget about you assessing a drive category and what you want..choose a reputable recommended breeder (post in "choosing a breeder" section would be good). Tell the breeder about your wants, your life, and your vision of your life with the dog. They will know how to most accurately place one of their puppies.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Safari64 said:


> Is a low drive difficult to train but less likely to nip at kids running around?


And just as a general FYI any GSD pup or Lab pup or whatever pup is likely to do this. It's a family convo of expectations and a plan on how to handle/redirect etc


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Nigel said:


> Lower drive dog lets me take a nap, might even join me, while my higher drive dog drops things on me. Kind of like water boarding only with toys.


Love the analogy. Made me laugh !!!


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

CometDog said:


> LOL great description!
> 
> My advice would be forget about you assessing a drive category and what you want..choose a reputable recommended breeder (post in "choosing a breeder" section would be good). Tell the breeder about your wants, your life, and your vision of your life with the dog. They will know how to most accurately place one of their puppies.


Exactly. Figure out what you from a gsd and find one that meets your expectations.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Think of drive as an innate, genetic thing that a dog can't ever "turn off". A dog with high prey drive, for example, will always be excited by prey. And that can translate to balls or any small creature running and making noise, kids included! But that doesn't mean for one second that they can't be trained to differentiate! 

High defensive drive is a completely different thing though, so "drivey" versus non "drivey" doesn't do it Justus. 

IMHO any dog that is high energy but low drive is a poorly bred dog! You don't want that!

What, as others have mentioned, you really want is a medium drive dog, then set appropriate boundaries and train them! So many people don't for some reason like to tell a dog NO. When in fact, that's the best thing they could possibly do! And mean it when you do, without being angry or out of control!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I wouldn't concern myself with drive, I would find a reputable breeder and be honest and open about what you expect from a dog and what you can and cannot provide.

My working dog was probably low drive but had off the charts protection drive, so it worked really well. My current dog has is lower drive but crazy hunt and prey drive and she is a happy mess most would not live with. My old man was high drive but super biddable so we made it work.
Drive needs to be balanced and measured with other traits.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

thresholds are also something that is important...drives are described from low to high, thresholds are as important for control as well. I want a high drive, medium to high threshold and a thinking dog. The main drives that are important to me, are pack, food, hunt and fight. Total package when balanced.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Drive and energy seem to go together and I think it's hard to tell at 8 weeks what the dog will be. See what the parents are and roll the dice. I got a lot more than what I asked for and apparently at 8 weeks the breeder thought my pup was medium drive because she wasn't as interested in biting the stupid rubber chicken as exploring. She is very high drive and energy.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I believe you also have to look at the resources that are available to you as well as far as training and extracurricular activities / sports that you might be interested in. Although I rescue my dogs, at the time I acquired my most recent dog I was getting ready to embark on a job that used primarily positive reinforcement and clicker training - which were new to me and i needed practice... during my search it was important that I find a dog that was highly food motivated and complimented that training style. That was one of my assessments when I met him.

You mentioned hiking... I hike quite a bit... but there is a difference in a 2-3 mile leashed hike in a park (which all of my GSD have been fine with regardless of energy and drive) vs 10-20 mile off leash hike with challenging terrain, lots of wildlife, etc.

To some, drive is drive.... and to say (or try to figure out) that you’d like a dog with high food drive, high play drive, moderate defense drive, low hunt drive and low prey drive because you like to hike... it’s much easier, as folks have suggested, to tell a breeder that you’re looking for a hiking partner and let them figure that out for you.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I have a dog with low prey drive. Low food drive, low lots of drives. She's interested in people and other dogs and has a decent amount of energy. If she gets bored she'll get destructive. But it's pretty hard to work with her. She loses interest or gets distracted very easy so it's a lot of work to keep her engaged. I taught her commands but it's not as nice to work with her as say my other dog who has insane ball drive decent food motivation. I'm not quite sure on prey drive and such. If she could she would chased but I've made that a no-go so now she watches or points. And out of the two she is a lot more fun to work with. Considerably higher drives as compared to the little to no drive dog. That said the low drive dog would make an excellent family dog/hiking companion on temperament but she's from a not great breeder and if she didn't have the desire to be with people she'd be awful. I personally would avoid low drive dogs unless you also want a low energy couch potato breed that isn't a GSD. Not a GSD but the lab I was fostering would've been awful if he had low drive with everything else staying the same. 

I also agree with others though it depends on what drives. I agree in Fodder that you'll want lower prey drive. Dogs going after wildlife is one of the biggest issues you can have when hiking. Depending on where you are and what wildlife you have.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

As an avid hiker, on popular trails, I would suggest a moderate to higher energy level with moderate to low overall drives. With the higher drive dogs, you have to be "on", as you can't train for every situation and higher drive dogs come with responsibility. A lower drive dog makes for a more relaxing hiking experience. 

A lower drive dog may be a little harder to engage and train, but they need a lot less training. They aren't going to need to be trained, or trained as much, to leave wildlife alone or to not invade somebody's picnic or to not interrupt somebody's ball game. On the other hand, if safety is a factor, such as hiking remote areas, one will most likely find a higher drive dog more useful. 

Do be careful to listen to whatever breeder you choose. Make sure that you understand what they are telling you. I recently spoke with somebody who was unhappy with their GSD puppy. They sought a lower drive, lower energy dog and that is exactly what they got. Problem is that was not exactly what they expected or thought they were getting. Make sure you know what low drive, high drive, low energy, high energy, low thresholds, etc., looks like. You just might get what you asked for and it might not be what you wanted.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

For hiking, especially in more difficult terrain you'll want a dog that is environmentally sound and has a bit of social-ness about them. Aloof of is fine, just not reactive. I rarely encounter people on hikes so when we do I want it to be uneventful. My dog can alert, however reactivity would be unacceptable. Trails can have boulder fields, river crossings through rough water or over the water on dead fall, you want a dog that can moto on through without missing a beat, same goes for guns, storms, and city traffic, all should be a non issue.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Dogs can be high drive and have an "off switch" allowing them to settle in the house and their owners can take a nap. High drive doesn't have to be off the wall, crazy and not being able to settle down. I have two dogs that I would describe as very "high drive." When we are out, working, playing, tracking, doing bite work or detection work the drives are always high. when I come home they have no issue settling down and relaxing. 

High drive dogs are easy for me to train because I know how to manipulate the dog's drives and take advantage of the drive. I enjoy working dogs "in drive." Even with my high drive dogs, I spend time building and shaping drives. "Capping" or impulse control is a big part of training, especially when working with high drive dogs. I would much prefer to work with a high drive dog than a low drive dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I consider Deja high drive but only when I am working with her. In the house or on a walk down town she is nice and calm but alert. The moment I ask her something, doesn't matter how or in which language, she goes into gear. Her drive and off button are in good balance. She is perfect for me. Given, she is now 5 years old but even in her adolescence I never regretted getting her. For decades I have made the mistake of thinking that high drive would exclude a pet home. I was so wrong and have missed out on many years of having a WL GSD!
If you want low drive, get a show Golden retriever. The WL Goldens will drive you nuts.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

DO NOT get a show golden retriever because you think it will be low drive. Just like in show GSDs, drives vary. If you want a low drive dog, find a breeder that produces low/medium drive dogs and tell them exactly what you want. I have no idea why people on this forum seem to think golden retrievers are easy puppies, low drive, low energy, etc. It just isn’t true in a well bred dog, field or show.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Pytheis said:


> DO NOT get a show golden retriever because you think it will be low drive. Just like in show GSDs, drives vary. If you want a low drive dog, find a breeder that produces low/medium drive dogs and tell them exactly what you want. I have no idea why people on this forum seem to think golden retrievers are easy puppies, low drive, low energy, etc. It just isn’t true in a well bred dog, field or show.


Agreed! i just saw a local news blurb yesterday of a woman's golden retriever taking on a guy who was robbing her and doing some damage. Same can also be said of showline gsds. People often suggest them to those who are considering the breed as if they would be guaranteed an easier dog and that is not always the case.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Pytheis said:


> DO NOT get a show golden retriever because you think it will be low drive. Just like in show GSDs, drives vary. If you want a low drive dog, find a breeder that produces low/medium drive dogs and tell them exactly what you want. I have no idea why people on this forum seem to think golden retrievers are easy puppies, low drive, low energy, etc. It just isn’t true in a well bred dog, field or show.


Good to know. My opinion was based on my observations over the years.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> Good to know. My opinion was based on my observations over the years.


The ones I've been around are more low-key as in won't destroy your house like your untrained bored GSD will. But way less biddable and less focus. The ones I've been around most recently completely break the golden retriever stereotype. Don't bond very well to people, aggression issues, just all around not good temperaments. And they're being bred and sold like crazy because goldens are supposed to be good family dogs. 

Kind of funny most of the poorly bred german shepherds I've seen are some of the friendliest well behaved dogs I've met while the goldens are kind of awful. (Although my friend has had nothing but terrible experiences will poorly bred GSDs. She manages to meet all the nervy out of their mind ones.) 

Based on my experiences I can see so many of the reasons GSDs are in such high demand. Both of the poorly bred GSDs I've had would make awesome family dogs and people who meet them would love to have dogs just like them in temperament and both were gorgeous. Shelby has the german red and tan while Brutus was a good looking black and tan. Brutus could've done some serious tracking work in the right hands and was super smart and sweet. Shelby the low drive one, maybe herding, that seems to be the only real drive she has.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Higher drive dogs will always want to interact and do things with you and are capable of going with the energy of the house naps and all. Different levels of different drives, shut off switch and balances that make differences. Good to go to clubs,show events and meet dogs see what you may like and what fits.


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## Safari64 (Apr 29, 2019)

Wow. I have reread these replies at least 3 times each. Thank you so much for the info. 



I was already contacting breeders and I am going to trust them to know what will work. I was just asking more for understanding and this has given me a lot to think on. The more I learn about German Shepherds the more I love them. 



One of the breeders I was talking to said that I would be looking for a medium drive and that some of their pups could end up working.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Safari64 said:


> Wow. I have reread these replies at least 3 times each. Thank you so much for the info.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't be afraid to shop around. There are a lot of good breeders out there. I have bought from breeders that I would not hesitate to recommend or to buy from again. Then again, if I were in the market, I would not have a problem buying from a completely different breeder if they had what I was looking for.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

A dog being social with people and dogs has little to do with his / her drive. 

A dog capable of thinking in drive is critical (for me). 

High energy is usually associated with high drive, but not always. 

Get out and meet some dogs, see what you like, and then go to the breeder that produces what you like. It's hard as a beginner to know what you want, until you see it. 

Once you see a really nicely bred GSD that meets your needs, you'll know it. A great shepherd is unmatched, you will never want another breed type.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have a medium energy, high drive dog. 90% of the time he is off and resting, but even with his eyes closed, he is just waiting to go into drive. He can go from dozing to ON in an instant. 

I have noticed people who might have GSD experience but not a lot of buying experience don’t really understand how to find the right breeder, what to ask and how to evaluate. All puppies look cute and picking a puppy at 5-6 weeks is almost impossible for most people. An example, a neighbor wanted a purebred puppy. I told them everything I would look for in a breeder. Then I saw they had a 4 month old puppy. Where did they get him? On Craigslist. He’s an Ok dog. He looks like a petline, probably 3/4 ASL with some other line thrown in. They got him at 9-10 weeks. He has a very narrow face and his back is straight, without a lot of slope. He’s purebred. They claim to have a full pedigree but were not interested in showing it to me. He’s a nice dog, he doesn’t eat their cats and he is pretty good off leash. But he’s not anything I would have recommended for them. They wanted a watch dog. He’s not. They wanted a hiking dog. He is probably that but doesn’t seem to have much energy. The point of this long story is that I told them about drive, thresholds and energy, explained about good breeders and BYBs. They nodded and said thank you but very obviously did not understand a word I said. When it came time to buy, the man wanted a dog that day. If he was going to drive 2-3 hours, he wasn’t coming home without a dog. He also refused to pay over $500 for a dog.


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## Safari64 (Apr 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> I have a medium energy, high drive dog. 90% of the time he is off and resting, but even with his eyes closed, he is just waiting to go into drive. He can go from dozing to ON in an instant.
> 
> I have noticed people who might have GSD experience but not a lot of buying experience don’t really understand how to find the right breeder, what to ask and how to evaluate. All puppies look cute and picking a puppy at 5-6 weeks is almost impossible for most people. An example, a neighbor wanted a purebred puppy. I told them everything I would look for in a breeder. Then I saw they had a 4 month old puppy. Where did they get him? On Craigslist. He’s an Ok dog. He looks like a petline, probably 3/4 ASL with some other line thrown in. They got him at 9-10 weeks. He has a very narrow face and his back is straight, without a lot of slope. He’s purebred. They claim to have a full pedigree but were not interested in showing it to me. He’s a nice dog, he doesn’t eat their cats and he is pretty good off leash. But he’s not anything I would have recommended for them. They wanted a watch dog. He’s not. They wanted a hiking dog. He is probably that but doesn’t seem to have much energy. The point of this long story is that I told them about drive, thresholds and energy, explained about good breeders and BYBs. They nodded and said thank you but very obviously did not understand a word I said. When it came time to buy, the man wanted a dog that day. If he was going to drive 2-3 hours, he wasn’t coming home without a dog. He also refused to pay over $500 for a dog.



This is a terrific example of what I am trying to avoid. I have a thread in the Choosing a Breeder forum asking for recommendations. I have absolutely no idea what to look for in a puppy, I am trying to talk to breeders who will listen to my situation and work with me. 



Also, I am not in a hurry to get a dog. I am in the process of finding a house and moving. If I can be set up by Summer and get a dog after that then great. I would prefer everything to line up nicely. If it doesn't then I will probably wait until next Summer. I don't think I want to start potty training a puppy in the snow. Depends on the house I guess. 



For now I just want to research a lot and possibly get on a waiting list of a good breeder. Although, it is so tempting to just sign up with people the deposit keeps me from jumping in.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Safari64 said:


> This is a terrific example of what I am trying to avoid. I have a thread in the Choosing a Breeder forum asking for recommendations. I have absolutely no idea what to look for in a puppy, I am trying to talk to breeders who will listen to my situation and work with me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The breeders I deal with always want to know what the goals are I have for my future puppy. There is a lengthy questionnaire so they can discern if one of their pups would be a good fit. I would certainly make a list of what you want, your lifestyle and what you expect from a pup that won't stay a pup long, but become a teenager in a blink of an eye. 
I see so many people(local in a GSD fb group) that have no idea what they were getting into with this breed. 
Don't take this personally, but..... If you don't want to potty train a pup in the snow, it kind of says to me, that you aren't really going to put forth a ton of effort in training general manners or go to the level this breed requires. I don't enjoy potty training a dog in the snow either, but all dogs do need to be given a huge amount of time and commitment.....this breed is so smart, many of the dogs are smarter than their owners.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> Don't take this personally, but..... If you don't want to potty train a pup in the snow, it kind of says to me, that you aren't really going to put forth a ton of effort in training general manners or go to the level this breed requires. I don't enjoy potty training a dog in the snow either, but all dogs do need to be given a huge amount of time and commitment.....this breed is so smart, many of the dogs are smarter than their owners.


Ouch, I’m taking this personally and I’m not even the OP, lol. I find not wanting to and not liking to as one in the same.... much different from I won’t...

I read the OP’s comment as an expression of ideal circumstances / timing. I don’t even live in the snow and I’d try to avoid a winter pup too just because I don’t like being cold or wet. Since it “depends on the house” there could be other reasons attached to this preference. I at the very least hear willingness in the statement.

They’re here and theyre not rushing... let’s give them a chance.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I live in snow country for 7 months out of the year...waiting for a pup that is perfect timing for a great breeding is hard to find. I lucked out with one, another two pups I had to potty train in the worst weather ever. It shouldn't be a deal breaker when choosing a breeder and then a breeding. That short window of time is just that...and the commitment level of taking on a puppy is huge, regardless. 
Gambit never saw anything but snow until he was almost 4 months old..it was hard to get him to pee on grass!


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## Safari64 (Apr 29, 2019)

onyx'girl said:


> Don't take this personally, but..... If you don't want to potty train a pup in the snow, it kind of says to me, that you aren't really going to put forth a ton of effort in training general manners or go to the level this breed requires. I don't enjoy potty training a dog in the snow either, but all dogs do need to be given a huge amount of time and commitment.....this breed is so smart, many of the dogs are smarter than their owners.



That is a pretty big jump of an assumption. 



If you don't enjoy potty training a dog in the snow either, then that means you don't want to. Same as me. I don't understand why that makes you think I wouldn't invest time and commitment into a dog.


If that last statement about many of the dogs being smarter than their owners is referring to me and my situation, then why did you say don't take this personally?


I want to invest a lot of time and training into a dog, and just as with raising children, any issues that you can deal with in their early days make things easier in the long run. Why would I choose to add an extra challenge on top of raising a pup? I am trying to give myself and the dog all of the advantages I can, which starts with a good breeder. Then good timing.


I am sorry that your post did hit me personally. I think any post you have to preface with "no offense" "don't take this personally" or any of the other things that could be said, will always result in offense. Because that was a preface with a "but" after it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I didn't mean to make it personal to you, but I do see over and over and over many owners that are frustrated with their training and their puppies temperaments. It is sad because the breeders they chose don't offer support, nor do they even understand the breed. So I do tend to be protective of this breed. I know we all started somewhere, and you are doing great by asking questions early on. 

Like I said, getting a puppy in the mild temps is not always going to happen, depending on where you live.
Don't discount a great breeding/breeder because the timing isn't compatible to the weather. That was the jist of my post, and then my own frustrations with some of the owners I see made me comment further. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it personal to you.


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## Safari64 (Apr 29, 2019)

onyx'girl said:


> I didn't mean to make it personal to you, but I do see over and over and over many owners that are frustrated with their training and their puppies temperaments. It is sad because the breeders they chose don't offer support, nor do they even understand the breed. So I do tend to be protective of this breed. I know we all started somewhere, and you are doing great by asking questions early on.
> 
> Like I said, getting a puppy in the mild temps is not always going to happen, depending on where you live.
> Don't discount a great breeding/breeder because the timing isn't compatible to the weather. That was the jist of my post, and then my own frustrations with some of the owners I see made me comment further. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it personal to you.



Fair enough. I understand.


I really do take commitments seriously and I really do want to do things right. 



This is still the research phase for me, so I will probably say a lot of things that don't sound right, but I am trying to come at things with the situation favoring me and a good pup.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I get that.... if someone didn’t want to deal with snow and their reality was that it snowed 7/12 months, then yes, that would feel a bit different. For the majority of the US, that’s not the case. OP is in Utah or Ca.... so that’s what, 3 months at the most. Reasonable to me.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Some interesting articles on drives and thresholds and whatnot...

Understanding Dog Drives | High Class K9 Protection DogsHigh Class K9


Leerburg | Understanding Drives

There was another that I actually like much more because of its thoroughness, but I'm not finding it now for some reason...I'll post it later if I locate it.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Was it this one maybe?
I saw it listed here on the forum before and I read it, it's very interesting:

(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

So...after rereading that article...
I think that besides drive, you might also be looking for "Nerves."

The one most important thing my dog has to do on trails (we love to hike) is pass other dogs / hiking groups / runners / mountainbikers in a calm safe manner. The trails are narrow, and it is not always possible to step off to the side more than a foot or two due to the terrain. So a dog that is barking, lunging, acting out, nervous, aggressive, etc would be impossible to bring hiking. 

With active kids too, it seems like Nerves is important...the ability to not overreact to jumping screaming children nearby.

Great that you are researching! Being a layman, I'd probably mumble something along the lines of, "I want our dog to be good with kids. And, we like to hike."


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

GSDchoice said:


> Was it this one maybe?
> I saw it listed here on the forum before and I read it, it's very interesting:
> 
> (Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )


That's the one, THANK you for posting it!


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## TVAnnino (Jun 12, 2019)

What is everyone’s opinion on a 7 week old puppy who’s parents have high prey/high ball drive being brought into a home with a cat? I understand that raising them together when he’s a young age is crucial, but do you think a high prey drive GSD and a cat is a bad mix or do you think they’d be able to coexist in harmony together? However, probably still separated when no ones home.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

TVAnnino said:


> What is everyone’s opinion on a 7 week old puppy who’s parents have high prey/high ball drive being brought into a home with a cat? I understand that raising them together when he’s a young age is crucial, but do you think a high prey drive GSD and a cat is a bad mix or do you think they’d be able to coexist in harmony together? However, probably still separated when no ones home.



Mine do. It just takes time and monitoring and consistency. And a cat that doesn't run helps.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> And a cat that doesn't run helps.


That would be the most important variable. You can train what you want but if a cat runs, it is pretty difficult or you need them separated. Also cats have a way of teasing the pup once he is on his best behavior or crated. Once I had a Siamese (notorious for this) who would walk over the pup's paws, touch is nose with her whiskers when he was doing well on a down-stay, would suddenly show up and climb in a tree when he was learning to heel etc. But they were good buddies.


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