# PSA vs. French Ring?



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Yup, more ringspam, haha.

I was wondering what the major differences between PSA and French Ring are.

Some of you may know I've been looking into FR recently.

I tried reading the rules for PSA, but I'm on my phone and it wouldn't download the .pdf file.
From outward appearances, it seems like PSA is (a lot) closer to FR than SchH.

The breeder I've picked out is also active in PSA with her dogs, so would that give me a better standing at getting a FR suited pup? (And I understand 100% there are a ton of variables aside from a sire or dam's titles that will determine this). 

Would like to add, since I will be getting a GSD, and if I do decide to pursue FR, I will be hopeful, but not expecting, to reach the higher levels of ring.

Any and all input is appreciated.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Probably the main differences are the jumps/palisade and esquive in ringsport, which is not part of PSA. If you are going to do FR with a GSD, get a dog from a breeder who breeds dogs specifically for FR. There are not many in the states. FR is primarily for Malinois, but GSDs bred for the sport can do well. 
While I personally don't care that much for schH, if you are just starting out, you might consider that sport because the accuracy involved in the obedience will make you a better handler/trainer. PSA and FR don't require the polished obedience that SchH does.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't think PSA is anything like FR other than decoys wear a suit which is about where it ends and really means nothing but anything. That's like saying FR and IPO are similar in that they require dogs.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I have worked ring dogs, but never PSA trained dogs.

In my view, I would put KNPV, PSA at one end of the spectrum, IPO, ZVV at the other, and Mondo/FR somewhere between. Somewhere between KNPV/PSA, and Mondo/FR I would place SDA.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Off topic but....W. Oliver, that pic is the best. Hmmmm. low cost BC maybe??


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Dont know that much about FR, so ill compare PSA to IPO... PSA is truly trying to put as much real pressure on a dog as possible, be realistic, and force the dog to have been truly taught behaviors vs conditioned or pattern trained. Both sports ar dominated by mals and dutchies. I started PSA bc many folks I train with urged me to, as they said I had the rare GSD well suited for PSA.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

it's a sport, don't fool yourself. Screaming making noise isn't pressure to a dog that's seen it every training day for 3 years. Stuffing a hidden sleeve in their mouth while they bark in a car isn't "real", it's just a conditioned exercise like everything else in dog training SPORTS. sending your one dog on a decoy, then having another one yell and scream and make all sorts of attraction to while he pretends to hit you isn't real either. It's just a conditioned behavior like is taught in every other dog SPORT.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The thing I noticed about PSA there seems to be a lot more environmental pressure. Those guys are REALLY creative with trying to throw the dog off track with different objects and noises.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Question:

But even in 'on the street' police or protection work aren't the responses there from conditioning as well? It's just a matter of what the dog is conditioned for, yes?



crackem said:


> it's a sport, don't fool yourself. Screaming making noise isn't pressure to a dog that's seen it every training day for 3 years. Stuffing a hidden sleeve in their mouth while they bark in a car *isn't "real", it's just a conditioned* exercise like everything else in dog training SPORTS. sending your one dog on a decoy, then having another one yell and scream and make all sorts of attraction to while he pretends to hit you isn't real either. It's just a *conditioned behavior* like is taught in every other dog SPORT.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Konotashi,

This is a site I've looked at in the past showing different PSA videos.

The variety of situations these guys come up with in OB and protection, like dogs having to do long downs in kiddie pools filled with water and floating objects, umbrellas, leaf blowers going, ATVs running around the field, multiple decoys running around and hollering!

Some Videos here:

Media Gallery | PSA K9


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

crackem said:


> it's a sport, don't fool yourself. Screaming making noise isn't pressure to a dog that's seen it every training day for 3 years. Stuffing a hidden sleeve in their mouth while they bark in a car isn't "real", it's just a conditioned exercise like everything else in dog training SPORTS. sending your one dog on a decoy, then having another one yell and scream and make all sorts of attraction to while he pretends to hit you isn't real either. It's just a conditioned behavior like is taught in every other dog SPORT.


 
Isn't that what training is? Conditioning. Why does our military train every scenario possible? Maybe to condition troops to it? Why do they actually shoot each other with simunitions? Maybe to get conditioned to being shot and still fighting? 

Oh and lets not forget about pressure. Yelling and screaming has little to do with pressure. If that's what you think then you know very little. Pressure is all about the internal presence and mind games a decoy puts on.

You guys kill me sometimes.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

PSA and IPO are both sports, but there are distinct differences in difficulty, thus caliber of dogs involved. One sport is a patterned routine that the dog knows better than the handler in many cases affording a great familarity and comfort, as opposed to PSA which includes a multitude of exercises that are often selected the day of the event. So it is difficult to work on that specific weakness for weeks preceding the event as is often done in IPO. The general difference( and I can name many), is weak dogs are not going to pass PSA, KNPV although they are sports....many many weak dogs pass IPO tests. Simple as that.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

The more I read about PSA, the more I like it.

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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Went to the first Canadian PSA trial recently. A high level PSA dog can handle a lot of pressure, not even comparable to schutz. The good news crackem is a dog thats done lots of PSA probably wont run into much it hasnt been "conditioned" too lol. Saw some dogs get run too despite all the training.
IMO you cant take a weak dog to PSA 3. Sch 3..I think we all know the answer to that. cough *WGSL* cough.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

there is no doubt that weak dogs get passed with weak helpers using favorable judges that often have ties to money, breeding rights or some other form of politics. No denying that. Though I think at the higher levels where things are usually done a bit more fairly, that's not such a problem. and if PSA attains the longevity and size of IPO, wait to see the problems it is sure to develop in time. 

I'm quite confident I could take any mediocre dog and compete and trial and pass at any of the sports. I could probably take a couple dogs with much more drive than nerve and get them thru as well. I'm also confident I can spot a weak dog with a sleeve and stick.

It isn't about which sport is better, harder, whatever. They are sports. I can't think of many sports where a dog can run in and bite and be pulled off that bite and spin and bite repeatedly and still win a "national championship", but to each his own. you train for exercises to compete in a sport. it has become apparent to me that many know a lot about their SPORT but still don't know about dogs.

anyway, back to PSA vs. French Ring, besides the suit there isn't a lot to compare. Different exercises, different decoy pressures different ways of trying to "expose" a dog etc.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Blitzkrieg1, 

I have a showline and I find your thinly veiled comment irritating. Show us that you can take your Working Line gsd to PSA 3, PLEASE. 

In the last 2 years, I have seen many working lines come and go in our group, saw them in trials too. The fact that there isn't a GSD from *whateverline* that has achieved PSA 3 tells you a lot. This sport was designed for Mals and they are great at it, but at the same time, only 3 out of 10 Mals will make it, many of them have weak nerves too. 

The only GSD that I would bet money on to title all the way to PSA 3 would have been Packen's Gnash. I've never seen a GSD as hard hitting as him.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Nice post Joise! (and Cliff!)


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thinly veiled?  Oh yeah it is ole Blitzie......Pres. GSDIE, he's _trying_ to be sneaky. LOL!

Good post. 

BTW- In studying PSA that's what I was told. Very, very hard to get to PSA 3, even for the malis.

On the sport in general - I had heard something about prize money being introduced into PSA(anyone else hear this???) Now the question is how will that change the dynamics? 

This is a breeder I spoke with who breeds GSDs (and malis) and participates in PSA with both breeds, but as far as I know none of her dogs are PSA 3, still, interesting that this breeder chose PSA for her GSDs too. 

Announcements





Josie/Zeus said:


> Blitzkrieg1,
> 
> I have a showline and I find your thinly veiled comment irritating. Show us that you can take your Working Line gsd to PSA 3, PLEASE.
> 
> ...


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Difference between French ring and PSA is the creativity behind scenarios in PSA, in my opinion. There is also some variation in the exercises. Either way, a dog that does well in French ring will probably do well in PSA. It's up to you, the handler, to decide what you prefer. Lucky you to have that choice of clubs to train with! Have you seen NVBK and KNPV exercises? Those look pretty exciting, too- some are pretty creative, but we have no clubs that I know of in the US. 

I will choose a PH-1 or Ring titled dog over a schutzhund titled dog any day... for breeding or to own. Just what I like, personally. But I am a working mali owner, so that is perhaps where my bias comes from.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Josie/Zeus said:


> Blitzkrieg1,
> 
> I have a showline and I find your thinly veiled comment irritating. Show us that you can take your Working Line gsd to PSA 3, PLEASE.
> 
> ...


 
Well I have the half sister to Gnash..so you never know  I may give it a shot.

Whats irritating about my comment? Most WGSL dont have the workability of WLs, thats a given.

The SV rules make it necessary for these dogs to be titled if they are to breed, as such you have many with Sch titles they should never have earned, sport watered down, politics, money etc. This was what I was referring too.

I have seen some that can work but in general its fairely lack luster. 

I dont blame the dogs they are what they are, I blame the breeding. Also, we can agree to disagree about many PSA 3 dogs having poor nerve.

I dont know your dog or what he is, perhaps he is a great dog..we are speaking in generalities here and generally SLs have poor workability. 


Gwen..you bring a common phrase to mind. Ignorance can be assuaged, stupid is forever... Good luck. 



Back to PSA and FR.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Josie/Zeus said:


> The only GSD that I would bet money on to title all the way to PSA 3 would have been Packen's Gnash. I've never seen a GSD as hard hitting as him.


Cool, thanks Josie. Both Gnash and Creasy are 100% engaged in IPO, will swing by in about 1.5-2 years time after Gnash retires from IPO.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Back to FR & PSA, not for you! Zee wittle Chihuahua he bites! LOL!!!!!

I'm so hurt. ow, ow, ow.

There, there you feel better now? 

:rofl:






Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Well I have the half sister to Gnash..so you never know  I may give it a shot.
> 
> Whats irritating about my comment? Most WGSL dont have the workability of WLs, thats a given.
> 
> ...


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Went to the first Canadian PSA trial recently. A high level PSA dog can handle a lot of pressure, not even comparable to schutz. The good news crackem is a dog thats done lots of PSA probably wont run into much it hasnt been "conditioned" too lol. Saw some dogs get run too despite all the training.
> IMO you cant take a weak dog to PSA 3. Sch 3..I think we all know the answer to that. cough *WGSL* cough.


I'm sorry, and I may have missed it, but have you ever taken a dog to Sch3?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

One thing to also consider is the TYPE of people that dominate each sport. There is a different dynamic in each sport. Certain people overall are more drawn to certain sports. for good or bad.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> I'm sorry, and I may have missed it, but have you ever taken a dog to Sch3?


Nope, you? 
I assume your trying to discredit my statement. Our club has seen a few WGSL imports with SCH 3 one dog didnt even know revere. But thats anecdotal evidence so worth nothing.
Do I need to pull up youtube clips of Sch 3 WGSL dogs that are clearly poor in the nerves / drive dept? 
Or do I have to wait till I get to Sch 3 before I can say SL for the most part lack the workability of WL? I guess that would assume I am not a person that can use my eyes to see, my logic to reason and my ears to hear.


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## Catterman (Jun 30, 2013)

crackem said:


> it's a sport, don't fool yourself. Screaming making noise isn't pressure to a dog that's seen it every training day for 3 years. Stuffing a hidden sleeve in their mouth while they bark in a car isn't "real", it's just a conditioned exercise like everything else in dog training SPORTS. sending your one dog on a decoy, then having another one yell and scream and make all sorts of attraction to while he pretends to hit you isn't real either. It's just a conditioned behavior like is taught in every other dog SPORT.



Look at is this way, Ive seen more SchH dogs that won't bite someone w/o a sleeve or do muzzle work than i have seen PSA dogs that wont. Yes, it is a sport, but it is geared more towards police/PP. Personally, my dog isn't involved in any sport but has been and will continue PP work. There's no doubt that he will bite you with or without equipment b/c he's done it. (Decoy got too close without sleeve while working him). PPD's, police K9's, and most PSA dogs will bite you w/o equipment. A large portion of SchH dogs will not. Most have never seen a suit, hidden sleeve, or a muzzle. 

With that said, iv'e seen, more than id'e like to admit, ACTIVE working police K9's that have no business being in service b/c they sucked. Somehow, crap dogs make it through and become police K9's. We had 2 from the same PD bring their newly purchased police dogs that actually crapped themselves and laid in it when the decoy simply walked around them and kicked a pile of leaves that were 50ft away from the dogs. Needless to say, they soon sold the dogs as single purpose dogs (narc work was awesome) and bought 2 of our best Mals we've had in a while. The 2 GSD's that they initially bought shouldve never been considered dual purpose dogs like they were said to be.


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## Catterman (Jun 30, 2013)

http://www.rsv2000.de/export/sites/default/en/media/image/rsv-general/figure-1.png


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Nope, you?
> I assume your trying to discredit my statement. Our club has seen a few WGSL imports with SCH 3 one dog didnt even know revere. But thats anecdotal evidence so worth nothing.
> Do I need to pull up youtube clips of Sch 3 WGSL dogs that are clearly poor in the nerves / drive dept?
> Or do I have to wait till I get to Sch 3 before I can say SL for the most part lack the workability of WL? I guess that would assume I am not a person that can use my eyes to see, my logic to reason and my ears to hear.


Trialing for it next weekend with my weak showline, actually. Proud of it.

I just think its funny how often I see that the people who discredit Schutzhund titles as so easy to obtain are most often the people who have never trialed before. 

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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> Trialing for it next weekend with my weak showline, actually. Proud of it.
> 
> I just think its funny how often I see that the people who discredit Schutzhund titles as so easy to obtain are most often the people who have never trialed before.


Good for you, and good luck!!

I've never trialed before myself, but I'd _never_ try to argue those titles are easy to get. If I ever put a SchH1 on my next dog, that will be a proud day for me.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good luck with the trial Gator dog!

As to the topic in general I don't think Konotashi is planning on getting into the PD when she gets her gsd.....

The fact of the matter is whether its advanced AKC OB or one of the protection sports, Frisbee dogs, agility people who are dedicated enough to get off their behinds get involved and have dogs that can get titles are already head and shoulders above the general pet owning public.

I am inspired by those who can achieve these goals with their dogs...PSA fr schh it did take work effort and dedication.

It proves nothing by raining on someone else's parade. :shrug:


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> Trialing for it next weekend with my weak showline, actually. Proud of it.
> 
> I just think its funny how often I see that the people who discredit Schutzhund titles as so easy to obtain are most often the people who have never trialed before.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No need to get defensive. This thread isnt about anyones parade last I checked?
Im actually into schutzhund. This thread was a comparison of sports, my answer was in that vein.

You trialing for schutzhund 3 tells me more about you as a trainer and doesnt tell me much about your dog. Maybe he is weak maybe, maybe he is average and maybe he is strong.. There are exceptions to every generality.

It changes nothing about the reality in terms or SL and WL. 

Were did I say it was easier to get a schutzhund title? Its probably one of the harder sports to compete in which is why Im there. 
However, there are many dogs that have Sch titles that have no business with a working title. Some of its good training, some of it poor judging, some outright corruption. You dont learn this on the internet, you learn it by training with and talking to people that have been in the sport for decades.
Worked quite a few security patrol dogs in inner city neighborhoods, never came across a SL. 

I dont grasp how this became about SL vs WL? Honestly, if you work dogs and are around people that work dogs you know what it is. 

Some sports test the dog more some the handler This thread is a SPORT comparison some sports are more suited to certain breeds / lines of dog..dont take my word for it though.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Cool discussion.

I'll stay out of PSA vs FR because I have never titled a dog in either. I plan on getting into PSA when I have the opportunity.

WL vs SL however; I haven't seen any red and black dogs in Afghanistan. The GSD is still well represented, but in my experience, they are all WL dogs.

David Winners


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *crackem:* it's a sport, don't fool yourself. Screaming making noise isn't pressure to a dog that's seen it every training day for 3 years. Stuffing a hidden sleeve in their mouth while they bark in a car isn't "real", it's just a conditioned exercise like everything else in dog training SPORTS. sending your one dog on a decoy, then having another one yell and scream and make all sorts of attraction to while he pretends to hit you isn't real either. It's just a conditioned behavior like is taught in every other dog SPORT.





Catterman said:


> Look at is this way, Ive seen more SchH dogs that won't bite someone w/o a sleeve or do muzzle work than i have seen PSA dogs that wont. Yes, it is a sport, but it is geared more towards police/PP. Personally, my dog isn't involved in any sport but has been and will continue PP work. There's no doubt that he will bite you with or without equipment b/c he's done it. (Decoy got too close without sleeve while working him). PPD's, police K9's, and most PSA dogs will bite you w/o equipment. A large portion of SchH dogs will not. Most have never seen a suit, hidden sleeve, or a muzzle.


It is also about the training,and working the dog on different equipment...if the training routine is feed the dog the sleeve and then slip it, the reward is the sleeve, not the fight. I don't think many SchH trainers even think about suit or muzzlework. 

I like to see the control and balance a dog has. The exercises in IPO don't do much to showcase the fight drive with the transition to calm(other than the transports) 



> With that said, iv'e seen, more than id'e like to admit, ACTIVE working police K9's that have no business being in service b/c they sucked. Somehow, crap dogs make it through and become police K9's. We had 2 from the same PD bring their newly purchased police dogs that actually crapped themselves and laid in it when the decoy simply walked around them and kicked a pile of leaves that were 50ft away from the dogs. Needless to say, they soon sold the dogs as single purpose dogs (narc work was awesome) and bought 2 of our best Mals we've had in a while. The 2 GSD's that they initially bought shouldve never been considered dual purpose dogs like they were said to be.


Makes me wonder how some of these trainer/ brokers keep up their reputation for selling K9's. There is one fairly local that is known for selling less than stellar temperamented dogs to depts. But still in the business.


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## maxgsd (Dec 13, 2012)

Come join the PSA facebook page and ask around. There happens to be someone there now asking how cane corso's do and if any have made it to psa 2 or 3. In ten years only 10 dogs have made it to PSA 3 that in it's self tells how tough a sport it is.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/50032954114/


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

maxgsd said:


> Come join the PSA facebook page and ask around. There happens to be someone there now asking how cane corso's do and if any have made it to psa 2 or 3. In ten years only 10 dogs have made it to PSA 3 that in it's self tells how tough a sport it is.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/50032954114/


A while back I found the YouTube video Porter Tribute, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPkTEnMJKG0&feature=youtube_gdata_player, and I've been interested in PSA ever since. Great control, and lots of pressure applied to the dog. PSA 3 is a huge mountain to climb. I have no doubt that Porter would have performed in real life.

That's an amazing team IMO.

David Winners


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I love that video too....Porter was amazing!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I've seen this video as well. Great video and a very nice dog. 


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Our club is hosting the West Regional trial in Ocy. I can't wait!!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Holy cow?

Really guy, even for you this is bit much. 

You're the one who brought it up, and then go on and on about it below.

WGSL *cough* < remember?  :crazy: 

If you don't want to get into 'generalities' and drag the thread totally off topic then don't go there to begin with.

Geez.




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No need to get defensive. This thread isnt about anyones parade last I checked?
> Im actually into schutzhund. This thread was a comparison of sports, my answer was in that vein.
> 
> You trialing for schutzhund 3 tells me more about you as a trainer and doesnt tell me much about your dog. Maybe he is weak maybe, maybe he is average and maybe he is strong.. There are exceptions to every generality.
> ...


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Went to the first Canadian PSA trial recently. A high level PSA dog can handle a lot of pressure, not even comparable to schutz. The good news crackem is a dog thats done lots of PSA probably wont run into much it hasnt been "conditioned" too lol. Saw some dogs get run too despite all the training.
> IMO you cant take a weak dog to PSA 3. *Sch 3..I think we all know the answer to that. cough *WGSL* cough.*





Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Well I have the half sister to Gnash..so you never know  I may give it a shot.
> 
> Whats irritating about my comment? *Most WGSL dont have the workability of WLs, thats a given.*
> 
> ...





Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No need to get defensive. This thread isnt about anyones parade last I checked?
> Im actually into schutzhund. This thread was a comparison of sports, my answer was in that vein.
> 
> You trialing for schutzhund 3 tells me more about you as a trainer and doesnt tell me much about your dog. Maybe he is weak maybe, maybe he is average and maybe he is strong.. There are exceptions to every generality.
> ...



Lol, really?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

(Just double checked this is the sport section)
Lol I dont get it because in this section of the forum, I dont expect it to even be a discussion.

Ill spell it out once more for those that are having trouble connecting the dots. I was talking about PSA as compared to other sports. My POINT was PSA is a sport that will likely expose a weak dog unlike Sch in which weak dogs are often titled for various reasons. 

However, Im a people pleaser so lets pretend that SL and WL are the same, have the same general workability.. They both have the same chance of getting to PSA 1-3 or even FR 1-3.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Josie/Zeus said:


> Blitzkrieg1,
> 
> I have a showline and I find your thinly veiled comment irritating. Show us that you can take your Working Line gsd to PSA 3, PLEASE.
> 
> ...


No, it doesn't say a lot. It simply says that the resources are not there. 

If you want to be succesful in one sport, you cannot afford to meddle in another just to achieve the PS3. 

Those succesfull in SchH, preparing for the Worlds, will probably not be found training for a PSA3 right now. 

Plus, try to find PSA out here... it's basically impossible. This is not just a matter of not having the dogs for it, but a matter of demographics!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I will mention there is a member on here that posted her SL male on a suit that looked good. As much as you can tell anything about a dog through clips he looked pretty decent. Thats as good as gold right there. I hope he gets bred and makes other black and red dogs of working calibre. . Could he handle the envronmental pressure of PSA? Only she knows.. Generalities folks.

Fyi PSA is growing K. My breeder and others advised me that to be competetive in one sport you must focus on it and exclude all others. From what I have seen people that do both generally are in it for titles and to create something in their dog that sport competition wont create.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Um I hate to say it but there are dogs in every sport that have no business with a title whether it Schh psa fr rally etc. The reasons might be different but it's the fact of life. The bottom line is imo that the more popular a sport is the "easier" it is to a certain extent at the lower levels because not everyone doing it is trying to achieve going to world's. Let's face it. .. how many dogs go to the psa nationals at each level? Basically a psa 1 as long as you finish you are pretty much on the podium. Now compare that to schh. Sure you can say there are dogs at the club and regional level that are weak but let's face it. ... If the dog is at wusv and from a country where schh is popular is not going to be run of the field and isn't a crappy dog. And it would be apples top oranges to say if the dog that wins wusv is better or worse than a dog that wins psa nationals.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

GSDElsa said:


> Um I hate to say it but there are dogs in every sport that have no business with a title whether it Schh psa fr rally etc. The reasons might be different but it's the fact of life. The bottom line is imo that the more popular a sport is the "easier" it is to a certain extent at the lower levels because not everyone doing it is trying to achieve going to world's. Let's face it. .. how many dogs go to the psa nationals at each level? Basically a psa 1 as long as you finish you are pretty much on the podium. Now compare that to schh. Sure you can say there are dogs at the club and regional level that are weak but let's face it. ... If the dog is at wusv and from a country where schh is popular is not going to be run of the field and isn't a crappy dog. And it would be apples top oranges to say if the dog that wins wusv is better or worse than a dog that wins psa nationals.


Agreed, but I still say that the pressure at the PSA 3 level far exceeds top levels of schutz.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Some years ago, I was very much into Schutzhund, driving crazy miles in the Bay area to train etc. My showline hated it, he's decided to be a therapy dog instead and was great at it. 

PSA's OB is rooted from Schutzhund, I have seen a lot of good upper level dogs that are spectacular in OB. For me, that is the strength of that sport. PSA's OB is lots of distraction while the dog is focused on the handler. It is very hard! You think your dog is all that and a bag of chips till he craps on the field. You just never know!

I love the GSD breed, but after getting into PSA, I love the sport more.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Fyi PSA is growing K. My breeder and others advised me that to be competetive in one sport you must focus on it and exclude all others. From what I have seen people that do both generally are in it for titles and to create something in their dog that sport competition wont create.


Not enough though. The country is big. It is hard enough to find a place to do Schutzhund and I am no longer willed to drive 3+ hours and spend 10's of thousands of dollars on Gas money. Just not doing it any longer. It's economical suicide! 

More power to those who are doing it. I no longer care about the title craze. I work my dogs, if we title we do, if not we don't. So if anyone is willed to drive the 5-6 hours to do PSA, great for them. I'm not and I can guarantee you the growth you see is minimal compared to the size of the country!


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I had to push my showline to prove he can do it and did. Besides, he enjoyed it. Too bad we had to quit early.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Interesting points made. 

Just wanted to chime in a bit here, LOL. 

When I went to "Find a Club" on PSAK9's website, my breeder was the contact person for the only club in AZ.  
I think I might've struck gold!


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Well, sweet! Looks like good comparisons have been made by all, lol!

All I'll add is that crackem is quite accurate in stating the similarity of the two sports pretty much ends at the fact that they require a dog.

Blitzkrieg - I wonder if we've met? I was at the Canada trial as well 

Konotashi - who is your breeder? PSA is a GREAT sport.. if you get the right dog, it can really be tons of fun


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

BritneyP said:


> Konotashi - who is your breeder? PSA is a GREAT sport.. if you get the right dog, it can really be tons of fun


Grand Canyon K9


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## Jared77 (Sep 28, 2013)

Ill jump in on this one.

I've been a club level decoy for both sports.

There are are times where their paths cross and other times where they are far apart.

In French Ring the idea is to test the dog from the decoy. That's why there are no set esquieves. There are things the dog has to do, the pallisade, the jumps, heeling, guard the object, run the blinds, but its not as clearly defined as say IPO.

A perfect example. The dog runs the blinds, decoy tries to escape, fires a shot. Out. Move, 2nd shot out. Then escort/transport as 



 Watch how the decoy sets up the dog and then capitalizes on it. The dogs score goes down for every meter the decoy gets away from the dog after I think 1m (been a while since I had to know the rules so forgive me if I'm wrong). Mind you this is World Class level decoy work a VERY good dog. 

In PSA the idea is to put pressure on the dog with the decoy but mostly from their use of objects. Jugs with rocks in them, hoola hoops with caution tape over them, water, a leaf blower etc. The idea is to pressure the dog see if they give in both OB and bitework, but to also and test how clear headed they are under very intense situations.

Both are great sports since they are forcing a dog to be very strong, but not a psycho who only goes down the field and hangs on for the ride and doesn't out.


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