# Managing a serious, protective dog



## shehulk (Jan 18, 2010)

I love my dog to death and for the past year, I haven't had to really deal with his social aggression. My ex-husband is anti-social so, it was fine for all three of us to be under house arrest. I now have a boyfriend who practically lives at my house and my dog isn't cool with that. He's jumped up to bite bf's face (either missed or was just trying to make a point) and now it's clear, I need to get serious about his protectiveness. I simply avoided all public spaces for the longest time because I have a hard time controlling the dog. It's as if he constantly thinks I'm in danger and he takes his job as my protector way too seriously. With me, however, he's a total goofball. 

Rehoming him was something I thought was a real option and a great solution but it's unlikely I'll find him a home that's experienced enough to deal with him and even if they were experienced, who would want the stress?

I know I'll never get rid of his tendencies but how do I teach him when it is and isn't appropriate to be protective? My strategy in the past year has consistently been: keep him from any and all situations/environments that can trigger aggression. Unfortunately, it takes very little for him to turn it up and I kinda need to get on with my life. All I want is to be able to take him to the vet and sit in the waiting room without making a scene, take him on walks and be able to say Good Morning to neighbors (he usually snaps out of his sit in that split second when I greet people) and get him to welcome house guests and if plural is too much, just at least be ok with the boyfriend. Am I asking for too much?

Any advice? In general, I'll admit I've been really soft with him so discipline is an issue, he doesn't take me seriously. So I need to work on that. I also work from home so he's very attached - could that be a contributing factor in his protectiveness? 

I'm also looking for a good trainer but would love to get some pointers in the interim. Thank you!


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

shehulk said:


> I'm also looking for a good trainer but would love to get some pointers in the interim. Thank you!


I think having the support/guidance of a good trainer is the key. I am equally as confident others on this board will offer sound advice for developing your dog, but during the interim, if your dog isn't crate trained, I would suggest working on that.....and having the dog put away while visitors are around.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Nothing in Life is Free

To me, this isn't protective, this is a dog that's been allowed to do what it wants and is using inappropriate behavior to control the situation and/or guarding a resource.

You need to fairly lay down the ground rules. I would make sure the dog has a very structured life with earned privileges and freedoms and not expected ones. Check into NILIF. Nothing is free. He is not allowed to interact with others. You might also consider starting to postivitely train him to a muzzle.

You can get opinions on here but without actually *seeing* what goes on we are just guessing (myself included). You need someone who can watch the behavior and tell you exactly what is going on and help you decide on a plan of action. I wouldn't just try a little of this and a little of that because it could make things worse.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You need to step up your leadership so that he knows he doesn't need to protect you or that you aren't his resource to guard. 

There is a great book called Click to Calm which could help you a lot. Another good one is Control UnLeashed. I would also find a good positive training class and start taking him there. 

I would also condition him to a muzzle and keep it on him while you're working on training him.


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## shehulk (Jan 18, 2010)

Thank you for everyone's thoughts. gsdraven, you're right that trying things piecemeal isn't a good idea. I'm trying to take a step back to think about ALL the things that I do that make my dog this way. Fundamentally, I believe he's a working dog that doesn't have to earn anything because I give him everything freely so there's very little desire to please me though he always want to be with me. 

BowWowMeow, you're right about setting up leadership. To him, I'm his favorite ragdoll! LOL I'm not sure about the muzzle though. Someone once described it as like duct tape and the last thing I want is for him to be uncomfortable during training...I guess I'll just have to make sure no one else is around when we train?

W. Oliver, yeah, he's crate-trained. It just gets a bit tricky when my boyfriend isn't just spending a few hours here but practically lives here. I guess it's time we scaled that back a bit so my dog is given more time to adjust.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Just want to stress the importance of getting a very experienced trainer to help you--stat.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

there are wire cage muzzles - nothing like duct tape or velcro! Would be a very good idea that he learns to wear one while you work on your problems....

Lee


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## shehulk (Jan 18, 2010)

VALOR said:


> Since you are in southern California I would contact Anne @ Adler Stein Kennels-German Shepherds-German Shepherd Puppies-Working Line German Shepherds if you are looking for a trainer experienced with German Shepherds. She is extremely familiar with the dogs and reading signals the handler sends to their dog etc..


That's my dog's breeder and yes, Anne's great but also super busy and has little patience for human stupidity! LOL


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Anne is on this forum and I'm sure would be very motivated to help one of her dogs' owners learn how to handle the dog.  At the very least I'm sure she could give you recommendations for reputable trainers.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Any advice? In general, I'll admit I've been really soft with him so discipline is an issue, he doesn't take me seriously.


This is part of your problem. 
He takes things into his own hands because he probably thinks he is your leader instead of the other way around. When you start showing authority to him(NILIF included), I bet he'll be happy to give up the role/though he already has the behaviors instilled so working with a trainer will help you manage him.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Does Anne know how bad things have gotten with your dog?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think everyone has covered this pretty well, and I definately think you need to contact Anne. 

You may get a good tongue lashing, but I'm sure she'll be more than happy to help turn things around with him..


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

shehulk said:


> BowWowMeow, you're right about setting up leadership. To him, I'm his favorite ragdoll! LOL I'm not sure about the muzzle though. Someone once described it as like duct tape and the last thing I want is for him to be uncomfortable during training...


I'm no expert but the above says a lot. If you are more worried about his comfort than the potentially serious problem he can cause then I think you need some training before you do much more with him.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

You would need to get him used to the muzzle and make it a fun thing to wear before you delved into using it for an attitude adjustment.

But again...this is definitely a situation where I think you need to get some serious help and not try too much on your own since it sounds like it's already gotten a bit out of control.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Amen to the above...a snap to the face is nothing to sneeze at. 
It's only a few inches down to the fragile neck and those arteries running through there.
Even if he has not bitten "yet", it's coming. Please take the advice given here very seriously.



> He's jumped up to bite bf's face (either missed or was just trying to make a point)


Curious what your interpretation is of the "point" he was trying to make...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

actually after him jumping and snapping at a humans face, he'd be seeing the point I'd be making..


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## shehulk (Jan 18, 2010)

> Curious what your interpretation is of the "point" he was trying to make...


That he can scare the crap out of this strange man he found in his house!

*JakodaCD OA*, Anne knows, I've been testing her tolerance. I get a lashing every time. Trying to arrange in-kennel training with her but before and after training, I need to improve my behavior.


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## shehulk (Jan 18, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm no expert but the above says a lot. If you are more worried about his comfort than the potentially serious problem he can cause then I think you need some training before you do much more with him.


You're right. It's time I take this very seriously...I need to be able to control him and not be so soft!


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

As someone who will carry a scar on my face from a dog for the rest of my life, let me just say you need to get this under control now...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm sure Anne can whip (not literally LOL) you both into shape


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

shehulk said:


> That he can scare the crap out of this strange man he found in his house!
> 
> *JakodaCD OA*, Anne knows, I've been testing her tolerance. I get a lashing every time. Trying to arrange in-kennel training with her but before and after training, I need to improve my behavior.


You could send him away to 50 kennels but you're right, until you start taking his behavior seriously, he will be a danger to everyone, including yourself. It is not "protection", it's quite possibly fear based aggression and lack of training/leadership on your part.
A dog who needs to "scare the crap" out of someone is afraid himself and if he makes himself big/mean, the threat will (usually) go away.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Shehulk, I also have a dog with "tendencies" and I also hate telling the darling boy "no."

What I have found, is that I am not being at all fair by not setting limits and being CLEAR about acceptable behavior.

It sounds like you love this dog, so I wish you the best on your quest!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

gagsd said:


> What I have found, is that I am not being at all fair by not setting limits and being CLEAR about acceptable behavior.
> 
> !


Agreed. I have never seen a dog of Anne's personally, but from what I've gathered about her breeding program is that she is breeding nice, strong dogs. Probaby the type that feel lost and like they have to take over when they are not getting clear and consistent leadership.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSDElsa said:


> Agreed. I have never seen a dog of Anne's personally, but from what I've gathered about her breeding program is that she is breeding nice, strong dogs. Probaby the type that feel lost and like they have to take over when they are not getting clear and consistent leadership.


This is true of so many dogs and people misinterpret their behavior, which is why they often wind up in shelters and rescue.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

So, what is bf doing in all of his?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

(sorry to keep posting  )

I think you are on the right track by admitting you have an addiction to soft leadership 

I would try and set up a REGULAR schedule with Anne...(or whoever). I think that will be the biggest key to it all....to make sure someone is keepingtrack of how you are coming along.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Agreed. I have never seen a dog of Anne's personally, but from what I've gathered about her breeding program is that she is breeding nice, strong dogs. Probaby the type that feel lost and like they have to take over when they are not getting clear and consistent leadership.


I have one and I told the OP in an earlier thread that my dog is the exact opposite of what she is describing. He has the most stable nerve of any dog I have ever owned. I was asked just recently out in public by a young man who thought Jack was just about the best dog he had ever seen,"why is he so calm?" 
I suppose he could have been a problem if I spent my time worry about his comfort level. I'm not going to say he's not spoiled in certain ways but not in the things that count. Too many people believe that you just can't give them too much loving. IMO, you absolutely can, to the detriment of the dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's not too much loving that is the problem, it's lack of leadership. You can be a good and firm leader and love them to pieces and spoil them!
We incorporate this into our interactions with our dogs.
http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/mindgames.html
Dog owns _nothing._ And works for it's "good things" (food, treats, walks, space, etc.)


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> It's not too much loving that is the problem, it's lack of leadership. You can be a good and firm leader and love them to pieces and spoil them!
> We incorporate this into our interactions with our dogs.
> http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/mindgames.html
> Dog owns _nothing._ And works for it's "good things" (food, treats, walks, space, etc.)


A lot of people use that (I just love him/her soooo much) as an excuse to not lead and allow them to become behavior problems. Some time it's done with kids also. I don't consider that truly loving. Semantics I guess.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well there's a difference between unhealthy "love" that sets no boundaries.
We love our dogs to pieces and in fact most sleep with us but they have strict boundaries and guidelines. None of them act the way the OPs dog is acting. None would dare to!

I'd venture to guess most the folks on this board set great boundaries and do great obedience, etc., yet love their dogs and even "spoil" them!
Most would agree that setting boundaries for your dog and making him/her follow them _is_ love, since not following those boundaries can get a pet injured or even killed. 
Same with kids


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

lots of good opinions already but i just want to say that, depending upon your success (or not), with training, i think you are going to have to modify your expectations for this dog (and probably the lifestyle you'd like to get on with), and completely manage his environment, while you see what you can accomplish with respect to training and managing leadership. with a dog like this (and i speak from experience, i have one), you must protect other people and you must protect the dog from getting himself into the kind of trouble which can cost him his life. and there are so many shepherds (well all breeds actually), in need right now that rehoming him to a safe and loving environment may be unrealistic. big market right now for bait dogs, research animals, etc., so please be very careful in that respect. good luck with the training and leadership issues, and in the meantime, i cannot stress strongly enough, please *completely manage his environment*.


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## shehulk (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks again everyone.

The core problem is me, always has been. There's something about me, the way I behave around the dog that makes him behave in the unpleasant ways I described in my original post. When Anne takes the leash (or even if Anne was simply around), his behavior changes (in a good way). When my dog and I are alone, everything is great. There must be something I do when we're around other people that sends him the wrong signal. He's just a wonderful dog handled by an inexperienced (and admittedly, nervous) human! For example, he usually hangs out calmly in the family room (french doors closed) and wouldn't bark if my boyfriend walked near the door. If I'm in the room with my dog, however, and my boyfriend so much as appears within sight, my dog starts to bark. 

The situation I have on my hands is the result of cumulative, nuanced behaviors on my part that over time have shaped my dog's behavior. Bottom line, I'm a poor handler, he feels it and reacts. This is a clear case of mismanagement that I'm now desperately trying undo!

My lack of confidence creates a lack of confidence in the dog and thus follows a chain reaction of dangerous behaviors. I've always understood this intellectually - but I trip in the practical application of this understanding. Anne has been a huge help since I got him as a puppy but she only sees a fraction of my behavior when we're in front of her so clearly, in addition to that advice, I need greater self-observation and self-correction.

I think I'm going to write down for myself all the different kinds of interaction we have and think about how I behave in each situation and how that might have been impacting him for the past year. Sounds like a bit much but that might be where I'll find my answers! I'm pretty sure once I behave in a way that reassures him I have things under control, we'll be fine. Or so I hope! lol

Thanks again everybody!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm glad you have the understanding and the insight about how your behaviour and personality affects your dog's behaviour and personality - but bottom line, even if your dog is sent away for a year to the best trainer in the world, once he gets back to you, he will revert to his previous behavioural patterns. So any training you want to undertake, it will mostly be about you learning how to be an effective handler/leader. For these type of situations, although it can be pricey, getting a trainer/behaviourist coming to your house to observe you interact on a normal, daily basis with your dog and helping you see and understand how all the little stuff you do and don't do sets the tenor of pack dynamics among you, your dog, your boyfriend.

The trainer can give YOU homework and exercises to work on, set manageable goals, and work from there.


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## VALOR (Dec 5, 2010)

Another idea is to use video in these situations so you can observe your behavior and what is triggering your dog to react. I know many trainers are using video extensively, just a thought.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

shehulk said:


> Thank you for everyone's thoughts. gsdraven, you're right that trying things piecemeal isn't a good idea. I'm trying to take a step back to think about ALL the things that I do that make my dog this way. Fundamentally, I believe he's a working dog that doesn't have to earn anything because I give him everything freely so there's very little desire to please me though he always want to be with me.
> 
> BowWowMeow, you're right about setting up leadership. To him, I'm his favorite ragdoll! LOL I'm not sure about the muzzle though. Someone once described it as like duct tape and the last thing I want is for him to be uncomfortable during training...I guess I'll just have to make sure no one else is around when we train?
> 
> W. Oliver, yeah, he's crate-trained. It just gets a bit tricky when my boyfriend isn't just spending a few hours here but practically lives here. I guess it's time we scaled that back a bit so my dog is given more time to adjust.


GET THE MUZZLE! 

Takes a day or so to get him used to it and then you will notice that YOU will be much more relaxed when you are training him to be more social. Also lets your training partners be MUCH more socialble and safe as well. It is not a difficult thing to get him to accept a muzzle!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I soooooo agree with the suggestion of getting a video of what goes on..

GREAT idea! Your lack of confidence/nervousness, he picks right up on it..

Getting a video and showing it to someone (maybe anne) can help with situations that happen when a trainer or someone else isn't around. It can give a clear picture to a good trainer on how to handle things.

I'm kinda not surprised when you hand him off to someone (anne say), that he behaves totally different, kinda like kids, angels with someone else who they aren't sure of and are in control, vs knowing what they can get away with at home.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i have almost the same exact problem. and i am always so uneasy when my boy is around other people that i'm sure he feels it. i cut myself some slack tho, because even tho there are those who say part of the problem is lack of socialization or training on my part, i know that he had the same exact upbringing as my seragirl (except a year later), the same puppy kindergarten, the same exposure to life situations. and yet there is no doubt in my mind that sera would never exhibit any aggressive tendencies...and i always doubt the cashman's behavior. born on my birthday, sleeps with his head on my chest, my heart dog, double velcro dog...but i totally manage his environment (including a muzzle on the rare occasion that it's needed). it does seem as tho he believes it's his purpose in life to make sure everyone knows they better not look at me sideways. no one has been able to change his mind about that.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

shehulk, I just want to say - Kudos to you for realizing that you are part of the problem. Too many people are unable, or unwilling to admit this to themselves. People like that, cannot be helped. I truly expect you to be successful. Best of luck to you.

Jan


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Is anyone else kind of surprised that the dog has not adjusted to the presence of the boyfriend yet? I mean, Niko is wary of new people too, but once he has established a relationship, everything is all good. Do you think the OP's description suggests a genetic temperament issue?

I think once you get the private trainer to do an evaluation, you will get a huge amount of help with your problems. I wish you the very best of luck.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Some dogs take a good long time to accept a stranger into their "pack." IMO, not a genetic "issue" but yes, genetics. You have to earn their respect, it is not just a given.

There is a difference between "wary" and just plain intolerant.


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## Salix (Feb 13, 2011)

Exercise, discipline, exercise, discipline, exercise, discipline. Always exercise, always discipline. Any correct behaviour or a command successfully executed, only then and ONLY then, affection. This is my golden rule. 

I know some neighbours and fellow dog lovers think I'm very hard but I don't care what people think. I think their dogs need more discipline. Family and friends are surprised that Denver is not allowed in certain areas of the house and I can leave doors open and trust him not to enter. He is also not allowed on any furniture. 

I don't pity. I never pity. I don't feel sorry for any dog or gush outwardly. When my father grew close to my dog on visits, my dad would feel so sorry for Denver that I was hard! I told my dad (with all due respect) to cut it out immediately and get rid of that debilitating human emotion. No pity. He's the luckiest dog on the block. The best thing for my dog is for him to know his place and feel secure in the pack. I make all the decisions. I lead. He follows. We also play a lot and bond but it's only a fraction compared to exercise, discipline, exercise, discipline.

As a side note: Ironically, this is the same gift my dad gave to me when I was growing up. My dad always made it clear he was not a friend, he was a parent. Disciplinarian. I felt secure in _my _pack. I think Dad's gotten a bit soft in his older years. I love my family too.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Shehulk, there seems to be a huge disconnect b/w what you say & what you do with your dog. Posts you made in Oct 2010 indicate he had these very issues back then. Through the intervening months, (almost a year), he seems to have gotten worse rather than better.

In this thread you indicate you accepted his issues b/c you & the ex didn't get out much, ie 'were under house arrest', but in a thread prior to getting this guy you emphasized how extensively you socialize your dogs & recognize the importance of thorough socialization. Ditto the training.

You speak of a reluctance to use a muzzle with him in this thread. In fact you appear uncertain as to what that involves, yet in other threads you've stated that you muzzled him when taking him to the vet. 

Following considerable thought & research, you requested, were sold, & were thrilled to have a 'real SchH dog' but quickly lost most of you enthusiasm for it. You've also posted repeatedly the need this dog has for solid handling yet you simply can't or won't come up to the challenge. In fact your time now is much more limited than it was previously.

Do you love this dog? If so, it's possible that the best thing you could do for him is see if his breeder will re-home him for you. She'll have a network of suitable homes & connections we pet owners simply don't have.

IMO, he needs a thorough & professional evaluation to determine the depth & scope of his issues. Perhaps they're all or mostly 'you'. Perhaps not. Even the best breeders, (& I strongly believe your breeder is among the absolute best), can produce dogs that aren't exemplary examples of the breed. However soft you are as a handler, 'protecting' in the absence of a threat is completely inappropriate, if that's actually what he's doing. The necessity of muzzling to get him to the vet should never be necessary with a dog of decent temperament.

Regardless, I truly believe it's in Leo's best interests & yours, to contact the breeder & see if she will re-home him for you. I don't see this situation resolving well for either you or Leo if you keep him.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The OP is in contact with me and was before this thread was started. There are some rather significant distortions and omissions in this thread, (intentional or not), but I will not be filling in the blanks. That serves no purpose. 
I will only offer this about Leo. Yes, Ruby, you are correct, sometimes breeders do not always get the dog we are aiming for and I have produced a few of those over the years. However, Leo is not one of them, he is a very nice dog but is in the wrong hands. I am looking to re-home him as soon as possible.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm glad it will turn out good for Leo, he sounds like a great dog, or at least the potential is there


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Anne, I'm very glad to hear that for all concerned. Nobody is better suited to re-homing a dog than its breeder provided the breeder is a 'good breeder', ie knowledgeable, committed & concerned.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

anne...when reading the OP's post something just seemed "missing" so i'm not surprised to read your post. glad you're going to help this boy.


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## shehulk (Jan 18, 2010)

RubyTuesday, you're totally correct in most of your observations.



RubyTuesday said:


> Shehulk, there seems to be a huge disconnect b/w what you say & what you do with your dog. Posts you made in Oct 2010 indicate he had these very issues back then. Through the intervening months, (almost a year), he seems to have gotten worse rather than better.


That's true. I simply avoided most situations that might get my dog to behave in a way that I can't manage. So instead of learning how to control my dog, I kept him out of many environments.



RubyTuesday said:


> In this thread you indicate you accepted his issues b/c you & the ex didn't get out much, ie 'were under house arrest', but in a thread prior to getting this guy you emphasized how extensively you socialize your dogs & recognize the importance of thorough socialization. Ditto the training.


Correct. After my puppy recovered from ghiarddea and cambylobacter, I socialized him with neighbors and took him to my cilent's office. He did great. And then suddenly at around 4 months old, he began to get protective and it appeared he just didn't like people. Instead of forcing him to be social, I was told that some dogs are naturally not into people so the best thing to do was to leave it. 

About the muzzle, he's muzzled at the vet only. I've never been taught how to train him while muzzled. Those, to me, seem to be very different things.

Overall, I far underestimated what would be required to handle a dog from such strong bloodlines, specifically, the kind of learning curve as well as time required for a newbie to "get" this stuff at an instinctive level. Add to that sudden life changes, you're right, I'm unable to rise to the challenge.

We're finding a new home. In the meantime, I'm stepping up to make sure we fix as much impact as possible I've made on the dog so he'll have a better chance of finding a new and far more appropriate home.



RubyTuesday said:


> IMO, he needs a thorough & professional evaluation to determine the depth & scope of his issues. Perhaps they're all or mostly 'you'. Perhaps not. Even the best breeders, (& I strongly believe your breeder is among the absolute best), can produce dogs that aren't exemplary examples of the breed. However soft you are as a handler, 'protecting' in the absence of a threat is completely inappropriate, if that's actually what he's doing. The necessity of muzzling to get him to the vet should never be necessary with a dog of decent temperament.


I have no doubt Leo has no temperament issues. When his owner is lighter and smaller than him AND not the most confident handler, I don't blame him for thinking everyone is a threat. He picks up on feelings I have that I'm not even aware of. It's unfortunate that I struggle so much in controlling him. 



RubyTuesday said:


> Regardless, I truly believe it's in Leo's best interests & yours, to contact the breeder & see if she will re-home him for you. I don't see this situation resolving well for either you or Leo if you keep him.


I'm in complete agreement. Thank you everyone for all your input. In sum, handling a working line dog all seemed doable in theory and easy to understand but the actual practical application is extraordinarily demanding. So I totally respect all of you out there who are raising happy, obedient GSDs!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Shehulk, I'm very glad that you & Anne are working together to get him re-homed. Other posts indicate you do well with dogs better suited to your personality & temperament, which I certainly understand. I've learned there are some personality types or temperaments I'm simply not simpatico with. It would definitely be an unhappy situation for all of us if I tried living with dogs (or cats) I'm incompatible with.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

If I were not so far away... I'd be begging to have your dog.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

He can come live in Georgia


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Or Michigan!!


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