# Early article indication?



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Both my dogs went through a phase in tracking, where they would down as soon as they got whiff of the article. Depending on the wind and the conditions, sometimes only two feet away, sometimes up to five or six feet, up to maybe 10 feet away. 

Easily fixed by encouraging the dog to continue working up to the article itself and rewarding lavishly - but it got me wondering - that is two dogs of mine now that are doing this. How common is this? Have you had dogs that indicated early? 

More common when they are tracking into the wind? Is it me? :wild:


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Many reasons, need to see video to trouble shoot. Most common is too much scent or too big an article. Cut it in half and wash would be a quick suggestion without knowing the root cause.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's common with beginning detection dogs too. Once the dog reaches a certain volume of odor it responds. It's something they need to learn to work through. Instead of decreasing the odor so the solution is easier for the dog, I would do as you mentioned and help the dog through it a few times until it understands the situation. JMO, and I don't do IPO style tracking so I may be wrong.

David Winners


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I was just curious - my first thought about using smaller articles for training, is that I already use the IPO regulation size articles. If I cut them in half to make less scent for training, then at trial with a full sized article, won't the odor just be stronger and again mislead them into early indication?

The good thing about it though is that I know that they are using their nose to find the articles, and not their eyes. But I found it odd that both my dogs were/are doing this, and I don't think that it has been an issue that I am aware off with the other club dogs. So there is the clear possibility that somehow my handling is causing this. 

Though the last time Gryff indicated early, I knew that the article was a few paces up the track, so it's not that I was giving him handler help - was I? Maybe just the way I was handling the line made him _think _ that I was telling him to down? It could have been completely innocent from my part. 

Gryff is so sensitive to me - a small step instead of a full one, a tightening of my hand around the tracking line - he is aware of it, and is always reading my movements. 

Keeta - not so much, she is an entirely independent entity who will follow her own mind and shut me out. Yet same early indication issue, even when someone else laid the track for her, using unusual articles - so I was running the track blind and couldn't have given her cause to indicate early. 

Tracking isn't my favorite thing, but I enjoy analysing the dogs and trying to see things from their point of view.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think you probably cued him. I would only run blind tracks with him, and be sure the track layer is there to let you know the dog is right. They can be so sensitive to our posture and movement that we can cue them without knowing it. 

I agree that diminishing the odor in training may lead to early indication during trial. I would go the other way and be sure that no matter how large the odor pool is, the dog will still work all the way to the article. 

David Winners


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Common issue. I just tell my dogs they are incorrect and encourage them to work to the article where they receive big praise and their reward.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Castlemaid said:


> If I cut them in half to make less scent for training, then at trial with a full sized article, won't the odor just be stronger and again mislead them into early indication?


Nope, new articles are used in a trial. Only IPO 1 lets you use your own articles, anything higher is with new articles. In training we feed on the articles so it becomes a a huge scent cone. Washing them clears off the extra scent, cutting them in half is not going to mess up the dog in a trial at all. Dog should indicate 1/4 size or double the regulation size as if there is no change.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Oh and do not use the same articles every time you track. Many people select 2-3 articles and use them over and over again for years. I'd suggest to make ~20 articles and keep them in your car, randomly select 2-3 that you will using that day.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I want my dogs to learn to track to the article no matter what. Vala blew a 100 pt track for her 3 when she indicated early. We reward the dogs for indicating so it is natural for them to want to indicate. They must learn that they are only rewarded when they indicate the article itself. I use small articles to increase intensity.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Changing articles is a good idea. I have two cases of articles. Well over 100 of different materials and sizes. I rotate through them.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Some good ideas here - I do use a number of different articles, sometime unusual items, like a cardboard wrapper, a plastic tube, etc. 

Gryffon's done bind tracks too with articles that belonged to the person who laid the track and indicate fine, so it is not really an article per say issue, probably just being too eager to get it right.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

To me it's not a mistake or a problem on itself. It's not something to be corrected but as you pointed, a phase. In learning anything the dog goes through different steps and to me an early indication tells me the dog is going from repetition to understanding. I've seen it not only in both of my tracking dogs, but on the area search dogs too. I do exactly as you have done and so far I've assumed it's something they just outgrow with keeping the training.

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think randomizing the food, changing out the articles, and not always giving a food reward when the dog indicates helps. Praise rewards are just as informative as a food drop. A seminar I went to had the advice of trading out articles often with other handlers and using unscented ones as well. 
I've been doing blind tracks more often than not lately and it really helps me learn more about my dog! Today we tracked alone, with my articles(though some were new, in a different container), another eye opener after doing so many tracks laid by another with strange articles. Gryff and K are very similar in the line handling sense. I've been observed often loosening the line or cueing the dog unintentionally, and he reads every nuance of my movements on the line....It does feed him information, even when I don't know I'm doing it.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't make my articles visible at all and cut them into thirds.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

GatorDog said:


> I don't make my articles visible at all and cut them into thirds.


Excellent! But then you are aiming away higher than your typical forum trainer


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Articles don't have to be regulation size, they can be scrabble piece size, or a glass marble if you want to make it difficult....typical forum trainer :thinking:?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jane, it isn't worth it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

lhczth said:


> Jane, it isn't worth it.


 
Don't worry about it Jane, I'm proud of my status as a typical forum trainer.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Castlemaid said:


> Don't worry about it Jane, I'm proud of my status as a typical forum trainer.


Majority of us are typical forum trainers here, some have potential to go beyond that and it should not be a touchy subject to see and acknowledge that!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Go beyond, as in post our training video's to prove we are actually in the field training?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> I don't make my articles visible at all and cut them into thirds.


At what point in their training did you start doing that?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> Go beyond, as in post our training video's to prove we are actually in the field training?


Nope, it is the quality of the dog and training put together.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> At what point in their training did you start doing that?


When I knew that she knew articles and indicated normal ones reliably, I made them very small and buried them. It's about indicating the scent now, not the visual. 

I personally don't use scrabble pieces, marbles etc...? Dog won't ever see that in trial. They might, however, not be able to see the article. So that's why tiny, non visual ones work for me.

I also don't choose to post videos to "prove" anything to anyone. I do it to share the learning process with my dog, and learn from each video that I post myself. Just sayin..

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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

A little late to the party here, but same at our club - just something most dogs start anticipating.

THink about it - most people make a big deal of an article whether they want to or not. You DO get excited when the dog first finds these things, so the dog picks up on that. You probably reward the article indication so the dog wants to get his reward faster, like anticipating the command (the article is the command). It becomes worse for dogs that either air-scent a lot and pick up the article scent downwind OR look ahead and see the article ahead. 

Some dogs are extremely focused (both sight and smell) on the next footprint, and really don't see the article until they are right on top of it, and it never becomes a problem. My dog is NOT one of them hehe.

But either way, at our club, it's pretty common. 

Some things that helped:
1. By and large make sure the dog understands indication. If they only do articles on the track, teach them articles OFF the track. Teach them they must go TO THE ARTICLE and indicate for a reward. It becomes very easy to make it black and white that way
2. When the dog indicates early, I would just encourage him to find the article and reward him there. Then (later on in training) I would not reward if he falsely indicated
3. I would attach a verbal command other than "such" to indicate the article. Something like "show me" or something like that. Reason is: dog picks up the scent downwind and indicates early. What do you tell him? Such? and then what? he passes the article and you correct him for an article he in his mind already indicated? That just causes confusion. I use "no no, show me" and he knows he's not quite there but he needs to find an article for me. I don't use it anymore, more of a crutch when we were working on articles

Anyway, hope that helps! it is pretty common at least where we are


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