# East German vs Czech



## k9trainersj

So I am wondering if someone can put in simple terms the main differences between a dog of East german lines vs Czech lines. Also, why does it seem people mix the two so frequently? 

I know the obvious difference between german show line dogs and working line but not east german vs. czech. Thank you for your time.


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## k9trainersj

Hoping this post went through.... ?


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## Nigel

It came thru, just not much traffic lately. I have a Czech dog, that's the extent of my knowledge with them, one dog:smile2: I'm not sure if it's a Czech thing or not, but one thing I have noticed with him vs my other three gsds is how fast he transitions from high stimulation to completely relaxed, unbelievably quick.

This is a recent thread with more knowledgable people explaining the difference. Hope this helps.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/personal-protection-dogs/530930-czech-vs-ddr-bloodlines.html


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## Sabis mom

It did, hopefully someone smarter then me will answer you. But I am not sure there is much difference anymore.


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## k9trainersj

Well I don't know if it is coincidental or not but my pup seems to also go from playing hard to crashing in the floor. He is supposed to be half east german and half Czech. Only thing I knew about the two was they were both mostly working lines.


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## gsdsar

So, to put it simply. While the Iron Curtain was up, there was no intermingling of lines behind it. So dogs within the DDR and the Czechlosovakia were part of a closed program. These dogs had a very specific purpose, border and "person" control. 

They tend to be sharper, have a defensive edge, thicker in bone and stature. 

They are frequently mixed because they were "developed" with a similar purpose in mind but have different lineage. So they tend to mesh well. 

At this point, with the collapse of the USSR, the lines have been fairly well integrated into the common west German working lines. It is difficult to find a true/pure dog if either specific line. Though it can be done. 

I have had a WGWL/DDR cross and now a DDR/Czech dog. One had more prey drive and was more active. My boy now the DDR/Czech dog is much lower on prey, but is much more environmental aware and us more suspicious. Though very even. But these are 2 dogs out of many and my experience may be different. Both were very slow to mature and drives developed later(12-18 months).


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## k9trainersj

Thank you gsdsar. I appreciate your bit of information. That all seems to relate to my Axel though I know it is still very early. Hopefully he keeps the wonderful temperament and personality he seems to have so far.


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## k9trainersj

Here is my Axel!


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## MineAreWorkingline

k9trainersj said:


> Well I don't know if it is coincidental or not but my pup seems to also go from playing hard to crashing in the floor. He is supposed to be half east german and half Czech. Only thing I knew about the two was they were both mostly working lines.


Is this your dog? 

Litter from Knurri's Peik and Gretchen vom Haus Baysden

I'm by no means an expert but I'm not seeing 1/2 Czech. Maybe a breeder could chime in.


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## wolfstraum

No Czech - DDR on top, WGRWL on bottom


The focus on breeding was slightly different in the CR and DDR.....the CR dogs were bred for pure aggression for border patrol....dogs who are promoted as "border patrol breeding" and goes back to them is VASTLY different from the Czech dog in it's "heyday".....looks counted NOT at all...just drive/aggression.....lots of prey aggression as they were meant to find prey (people trying to get across the border!) and take them down....my source of info is a guy from the CR whose best friend was a trainer in the CR Army, who still trains police dogs there, but comes here for two three month visits a year...he brings dogs here for police departments, customs and sport homes...

DDR dogs were more balanced, kept suspicion and civil aggression but were also bred for conformation.....not alot of prey/toy drive....the Czechs brought DDR dogs into their breedings, but not vice versa....

My dogs are pretty much a blend of DDR-Czech-Belgium and some WGR......I have only done one WGR litter, and find I prefer what I get with the blends of lines....Talking to a few European breeders - each "type"/country ran into bottlenecks in their gene pool, and many breeders are picking up breedings in other countries - thus you see Belgian x Czech crosses, WGR Belgian crosses etc.....I bred to two males who were both Czech/Belgian crossed on both sides!


Lee


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## k9trainersj

His sire is a previos puppy from Gretchen and Peik. The Czech comes from my puppy's dam.


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## k9trainersj

My pups dam comes from this dog. I'm no expert and far from it. Maybe the more I look my dog is 1/2 east german, 1/4 Czech and 1/4 west german?


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with gsdsar's assessment . I have found my east german dogs to be slower to mature, not much prey drive but alot of play drive. A tad more laid back (this could be mine) than my 3/4 czech / 1/4 east girl who has high suspicion, again not much if any prey drive, but alot of play drive..She's 8 years old and has more energy than a puppy but also has developed an 'off' switch as she matured... My new puppy will be 3/4 east and 1/4 czech and male we'll soon see what the differences are


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## MineAreWorkingline

k9trainersj said:


> My pups dam comes from this dog. I'm no expert and far from it. Maybe the more I look my dog is 1/2 east german, 1/4 Czech and 1/4 west german?


I don't know. As I said before, I am no expert, but I am not finding Mambo in your dog's pedigree although I found some WGSL, especially on the sire's side.


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## k9trainersj

MineAreWorkingline said:


> k9trainersj said:
> 
> 
> 
> My pups dam comes from this dog. I'm no expert and far from it. Maybe the more I look my dog is 1/2 east german, 1/4 Czech and 1/4 west german?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. As I said before, I am no expert, but I am not finding Mambo in your dog's pedigree although I found some WGSL, especially on the sire's side.
Click to expand...

That may be bc my dog is not from the litter you posted. The sire and dam to that litter are my dog's grandsire and grand-dam. He is NOT from that litter.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Maybe if you posted a link to your dog's pedigree or parents, people can help you out better.


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## wolfstraum

a full pedigree or a mating result would certainly be easier


Mambo is a mix.....

his sire is 3/4 czech and 1/4 WGR, his dam 1/2 each....quite a few red flags in his pedigree, which reportedly were borne out, for less than stellar hip production - to really see what your pup is, the whole pedigree would be useful



Lee


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## Jen H

I am going to be of no help, just my observations of my Zulu. He is from German(Dad) and Czech(mom) lines. I see the high prey drive, the crazy play play play!!! Then zonk out! His face is thin and he is more lean. Both his parent are Shutzhund lines. But, to me he is still my little fluff butt even though he is getting his "man" hair (adult hair) at 14 weeks!


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## k9trainersj

Well I'm not really questioning my pups pedigree as it is what it is at this point. My pup is just a family pet now. I just was curious to the difference as people are always taking about theits being Czech or theirs being east german. 

I will see if I can figure out how to do a link. I'm newer to this site so can't work it all that well yet.


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## cdwoodcox

Good luck. I tried getting Apollo pedigree to link and could never get it to actually link a functioning page. I thought about just posting a pic but they came out junky so I gave up. 
Apollo pedigree has some German, Czech Republic, and some Slovak republic. But there are a whole lot of nothing listed ancestors. I assume those are American bred German Shepherds or mixed lineage Shepherds. Athena and Apollo actually share a grandsire 4 generations back. But Athena has no listed Czech or Slovak lineage. Apollo is a lot thicker boned dog, tighter coat, not nearly in as much of a hurry as Athena or Rosko. More deliberate in his actions if that makes sense, he comes across as more laid back, but when he goes after a ball, or the flirt pole, etc... it is a lot more intense. He attached to us humans much quicker than I expected. 
I don't know I suppose all the differences I see between these two of mine could also be found in siblings. Assuming someone has a pedigree like my dogs. Nothing fancy no 5 generations of sch Champs. Just run of the mill dogs in lineage then it is probably just the parents that one needs to be concerned with meeting. Since the mix mash of lines ends with them.


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## MineAreWorkingline

cdwoodcox said:


> Good luck. I tried getting Apollo pedigree to link and could never get it to actually link a functioning page. I thought about just posting a pic but they came out junky so I gave up.
> Apollo pedigree has some German, Czech Republic, and some Slovak republic. But there are a whole lot of nothing listed ancestors. I assume those are American bred German Shepherds or mixed lineage Shepherds. Athena and Apollo actually share a grandsire 4 generations back. But Athena has no listed Czech or Slovak lineage. Apollo is a lot thicker boned dog, tighter coat, not nearly in as much of a hurry as Athena or Rosko. More deliberate in his actions if that makes sense, he comes across as more laid back, but when he goes after a ball, or the flirt pole, etc... it is a lot more intense. He attached to us humans much quicker than I expected.
> I don't know I suppose all the differences I see between these two of mine could also be found in siblings. Assuming someone has a pedigree like my dogs. Nothing fancy no 5 generations of sch Champs. Just run of the mill dogs in lineage then it is probably just the parents that one needs to be concerned with meeting. Since the mix mash of lines ends with them.


Did you add Apollo's pedigree to a database such as pedigreedatabase? It makes it a lot easier to link.


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## cdwoodcox

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Did you add Apollo's pedigree to a database such as pedigreedatabase? It makes it a lot easier to link.


 Not yet. I joined pedigreedatabase a few hours ago. Once they approve my membership I'll try and add pedigrees. Right now all I have are the pedigrees I bought from AKC and downloaded to my computer.


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## k9trainersj

Did this work?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2530373-axel-vom-haus-jackson-2016


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## Susan_GSD_mom

wolfstraum said:


> The focus on breeding was slightly different in the CR and DDR.....the CR dogs were bred for pure aggression for border patrol....dogs who are promoted as "border patrol breeding" and goes back to them is VASTLY different from the Czech dog in it's "heyday".....looks counted NOT at all...just drive/aggression.....lots of prey aggression as they were meant to find prey (people trying to get across the border!) and take them down....my source of info is a guy from the CR whose best friend was a trainer in the CR Army, who still trains police dogs there, but comes here for two three month visits a year...he brings dogs here for police departments, customs and sport homes...
> 
> DDR dogs were more balanced, kept suspicion and civil aggression but were also bred for conformation.....not alot of prey/toy drive....the Czechs brought DDR dogs into their breedings, but not vice versa....
> 
> My dogs are pretty much a blend of DDR-Czech-Belgium and some WGR......I have only done one WGR litter, and find I prefer what I get with the blends of lines....Talking to a few European breeders - each "type"/country ran into bottlenecks in their gene pool, and many breeders are picking up breedings in other countries - thus you see Belgian x Czech crosses, WGR Belgian crosses etc.....I bred to two males who were both Czech/Belgian crossed on both sides!
> 
> 
> Lee


One other quality of the Pohranicni Straze lines, explained to me about my Czech boy, they were also bred to bond strongly and exclusively to one handler. My boy was starved, neglected and abused the first year or so of his life, so had no opportunity to bond with anyone, until I met him. The bond was literally immediate, strong and enduring.

Susan


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## ChemDevil

I'm following this thread with great interest, as I've had the same sort of questions. As it turns out, our dogs are related. Duke comes from the most recent litter of Gretchen vom Haus Baysden and Knurri's Peik, born in April. Small world...


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## wolfstraum

The pedigree listed is a mix of lots of stuff - 

The sire starts out as DDR, but then WG showlines show up in the 4th or 5th.....the bottom is mostly WG working and some czech....with a big unknown chunk there too.....lots of known dogs in 4 and 5 - but coming forward, especially on the bottom, kind of random matches


Lee


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## k9trainersj

ChemDevil said:


> I'm following this thread with great interest, as I've had the same sort of questions. As it turns out, our dogs are related. Duke comes from the most recent litter of Gretchen vom Haus Baysden and Knurri's Peik, born in April. Small world...


Wow... small world! We really should chat. I do not know how to work this site well but if you know how to send a private message please do so with your email address if you would like to talk. I am in close contact with your dog's sire (Peik) owner. I would love to be in contact with you so we can watch our dogs grow.


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## k9trainersj

wolfstraum said:


> The pedigree listed is a mix of lots of stuff -
> 
> The sire starts out as DDR, but then WG showlines show up in the 4th or 5th.....the bottom is mostly WG working and some czech....with a big unknown chunk there too.....lots of known dogs in 4 and 5 - but coming forward, especially on the bottom, kind of random matches
> 
> 
> Lee


Some of those dogs on the dam side I entered which is why there is little info on them. I am working on obtaining more information on them.


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## k9trainersj

Jen H said:


> I am going to be of no help, just my observations of my Zulu. He is from German(Dad) and Czech(mom) lines. I see the high prey drive, the crazy play play play!!! Then zonk out! His face is thin and he is more lean. Both his parent are Shutzhund lines. But, to me he is still my little fluff butt even though he is getting his "man" hair (adult hair) at 14 weeks!


Your pup is adorable! I like the solid blacks a lot myself.


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## ChemDevil

k9trainersj said:


> Wow... small world! We really should chat. I do not know how to work this site well but if you know how to send a private message please do so with your email address if you would like to talk. I am in close contact with your dog's sire (Peik) owner. I would love to be in contact with you so we can watch our dogs grow.


I'd love to chat offline. I tried to respond to your PM, but apparently my post count is not high enough on these forums to use that feature. (It is kind of strange, BTW, to not be able to RESPOND to a message because of low post count...) If you send me your email in a private message, I'll just email you directly.

Sorry to derail the discussion, all.


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## Seer

gsdsar said:


> At this point, with the collapse of the USSR, the lines have been fairly well integrated into the common west German working lines. It is difficult to find a true/pure dog if either specific line. Though it can be done.



This is the case more for the Czech line. It's still relatively easy to find dogs that all lead back into the DDR lines.


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## k9trainersj

ChemDevil said:


> k9trainersj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow... small world! We really should chat. I do not know how to work this site well but if you know how to send a private message please do so with your email address if you would like to talk. I am in close contact with your dog's sire (Peik) owner. I would love to be in contact with you so we can watch our dogs grow.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd love to chat offline. I tried to respond to your PM, but apparently my post count is not high enough on these forums to use that feature. (It is kind of strange, BTW, to not be able to RESPOND to a message because of low post count...) If you send me your email in a private message, I'll just email you directly.
> 
> Sorry to derail the discussion, all.
Click to expand...

Chemdevil- I have emailed you back but some have been returned others not. Not sure if you are getting any of them. Let me know if you are not getting them.


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## Raider0372

The Czech foundation dogs were mostly DDR. Typically they will have more defense drive compared to the W.German working line dogs.


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## cliffson1

The Czech foundation dogs of the three State breeding stations, ( in Domazlice,Libejovice,and Prackovice ) these z Pohraninci Straze dogs did have 5 DDR dogs introduced in early eighties into the program. Otherwise, Czech dogs do not have DDR dogs as foundation but developed their own lines after WW11 and the isolation of being communist government from other European countries including West Germany.


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## zetti

cliffson1 said:


> The Czech foundation dogs of the three State breeding stations, ( in Domazlice,Libejovice,and Prackovice ) these z Pohraninci Straze dogs did have 5 DDR dogs introduced in early eighties into the program. Otherwise, Czech dogs do not have DDR dogs as foundation but developed their own lines after WW11 and the isolation of being communist government from other European countries including West Germany.


Slightly OT--does anyone know the correct pronunciation of Pohraninci Straze? Something I've wondered about for many years . . .

My new pup, who should be here in January, will be 100% Czech, top and bottom. My second Czech dog. He will be doing IPO--I will post about his temperament and training. I'm used to WGWL, so it will be fun to observe the differences.


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## cliffson1

There are very few 100% Czech dogs left. Most have some West in them...but if you do have a complete Czech dog, you will definitely see some differences.


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## alexg

zetti said:


> Slightly OT--does anyone know the correct pronunciation of Pohraninci Straze? Something I've wondered about for many years . . .
> .


Z _Pohranicni straze = _Po-gra/hra(as in gram) -ni-chni (as in chair) Stra-ze (zhe) = From Border Patrol


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## zetti

alexg said:


> Z _Pohranicni straze = _Po-gra/hra(as in gram) -ni-chni (as in chair) Stra-ze (zhe) = From Border Patrol


Thank you!


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## zetti

cliffson1 said:


> There are very few 100% Czech dogs left. Most have some West in them...but if you do have a complete Czech dog, you will definitely see some differences.


Yes, 100% Czech, from Weberhaus. From the Loki x Tom breeding. I can't wait!


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## carmspack

poe ran neetch knee straw ze


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## carmspack

quote Cliff " Otherwise, Czech dogs do not have DDR dogs as foundation but developed their own lines after WW11 and the isolation of being communist government from"

not just that , but even before there was a drift of the Thuringian type GSD introduced into Czech - shared borders with north Germany, similar needs and applications of the dogs.

later on some of the Pohranicni Straze dogs capitalized on great west German Bernd Lierberg which was available in DDR breedings . 
You will see Czech dogs in the 70's with DDR Schotterhof and Buschecke, Schaferstolz and Grafental DDR lines.
The OLD DDR dogs are in the background . 
Those lines preserved old , functional working herding genetics . Example pedigree Ciro z Pohranicni straze CS


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## Julian G

cliffson1 said:


> There are very few 100% Czech dogs left. Most have some West in them...but if you do have a complete Czech dog, you will definitely see some differences.


Can you please elaborate?
I was researching all these types of dogs and am trying to pinpoint the best suited line for my living situation. How do DDR, Czech, WGWL, compare to KNPV dogs?


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## cliffson1

@ Zetti....yes your pup will be all Czech. Interesting pedigree! Good Luck!


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## RZZNSTR

This may help!


Czech German Shepherd: 9 Facts You Must Know


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