# Intact Behaviors (humping, marking, sniffing, pulling etc). Need TONS of help :(



## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Just a note, I am a big advocate of positive reinforcement and try to do it as often as I can. He's learned some pretty incredible stuff. He is food motivated (only) when in the house (unfortunately that's as far as it goes), play motivated when in the back yard, but nothing motivated when out in the wild. I can throw a big steak in his face and he literally won't even look at it. He will go out of his way to looking around the steak if I obstruct his view. The only thing I've recently been able to find as a reward for him while walking (which has became super difficult since he's so obsessed with going off and smelling things), is sniffing. If I stop and say wait, he's now trained to give me eye contact until I say "break" or "go sniff" and then he books it to the nearest sniffing location. I couldn't achieve eye contact with food or his favorite toys otherwise. I fear I am reinforcing the sniffing too much by letting him do it, but it's the only training tool I have while walking!

Well he is about a year and 3 months now. He is an east german (DDR) shepherd so he's smaller and I've decided to wait until 2.5-3 years until neutering him since I've read many times that DDR males are slow to mature. Well, along with the obsessive and compulsive need to sniff, he's gotten into marking. And I only allow him to do it when I release him to sniff on walks. But he catches me off guard sometimes. And the worst thing is, he doesn't lift his legs ever (I have to wash his paws multiple times a day) so I won't notice he's marking unless I hear it or smell it. He just stands casually. And the reason why it is becoming a problem is because he's starting to do it in public (not in the house though). Even if there are no dog smells, if I'm walking and another dog comes up and they calmly greet eachother, he will sniff the dog politely while peeing standing casually (all over his front paws of course).

Another issue, when I take him to the dog park now he's a lot less interested in the dogs (he used to love playing with the other dogs) and more in the scents. He will just sniff and sniff the ground until a dog runs by him. Then he will chase them for a second and get back to sniffing the ground. Sometimes he even licks the ground! 

And then there is the humping. At the park, he fixates on 2 specific dogs. If they are there, he will NOT do anything else except try to mount them. I give him timeout on the side as a punishment (no other punishment except not letting him play). Hopefully he gets it because I grab him AS SOON AS he tried to mount or mounts and pull him off to the side. There is no stopping him though, he is on a mission. I've spent an hour pulling him off before and each time I release him, he B-lines it to the dog. I even try to play with and distract him but he doesn't care about anything else. One of the dogs he's obsessed with is male and the other female. And the female was never in heat. I don't know how to train him out of that. Or if it will ever just pass. He went two months without seeing that one girl and the instant he saw her, he was already on her rear. Sigh...

Any help on any of these issues would be amazing. I wish I could get him to be more food/play motivated because I simply CAN'T walk with him anymore. Even on an EZ harness, my hands get sore from the pressure he puts on because he is so eager to go sniff. I always back up when he pulls and I wait for eye contact. He will even heel nicely and line right up with me if I stop and ask for it, but the moment we move he's on the end of the leash. Loose leash walking used to be great but now that his hormones are taking over and he gets all stressed out and whiney, I can't train him. He's not paying attention.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

I always want to add this little story in. Last time at the park, some guy saw me struggling with his humping. He walked up to me and tried to give me a training tip. "Next time he does that, quickly pull him off and take him to the ground on his side and say "NO" with a growl. It will help you put some submissiveness into him.." I just said... OK thanks. And left the park. I'm not a fan of that kind of mentality (dominance/submission) and especially not pinning my dog to the ground. Especially with GSD's being prone to having joint issues!

If anyone has a more "negative punishment" (in training speak. aka take something away to punish) way of punishing this behavior, I'd very much appreciate it.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Your dog doesn't need the dog park if he sees it as Humpytown.  A really great idea would be to sign up for obedience classes followed by something more fun that continues to teach control and teamwork such as agility. Teach him to potty on command and have him drain on your property before walks. No drain, no walk. Walk BRISKLY and stop for nothing. Use a prong collar to assist while you train new habits. He is at the "I brain a have?" stage which is why structure is so crucial. With classes, he will learn to work under distraction and you will learn ways to cut through the testosterone fog. 

If he is so into sniffing, see if you can work him in tracking. It's a positive outlet for something he clearly enjoys. There doesn't need to be formality involved; you can go as complex as a schutzhund track or do basic K9 nose work. 

What do you use for treats? What other rewards have you tried? Have you tried clicker training?


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Honestly, it sounds like he might need more correction. Nothing over the top but a lot of dogs, especially GSD's, only can last so long on *purely* positive reinforcement. Once they know what's expected of them, I don't think there's anything wrong with correcting them when they decide to not do the right thing. 

Have you read the thread on here about "Mind Games?" That might be a good thing to start. I would also take DianaM's advice about more classes, more structure, and a prong. Maybe someone with more experience will come along and comment as well but I've never heard of a male marking without lifting his leg... isn't half the "marking behavior" marking higher than other dogs? Not solely obviously but that is interesting...


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Clicker training is actually my preferred way of training. I do it as much as possible when reasonable. But when I don't have it on me I use "Yessss" as the click. He's learned some incredible things. I use low and high reward treats when necessary. But when we are outside of the house, no treat is high enough to grab his attention. I use anything from low (kibble) to high (fresh cooked chicken, sausage, cheese, hot dog, steak, freeze dried liver, non dried liver, etc) value food rewards. If he is out of the house and I even try to stuff it in his mouth, he will spit it out. But in the house he goes nuts for it and will offer up 10 behaviors before I even ask for one! So food isn't the right reinforcer in this case. The release is the only thing positive enough for him to pay attention to me when we are out.

As a training methodology, I try to apply the premack principle (Premack's principle, or the relativity theory of reinforcement, states that more probable behaviors will reinforce less probable behaviors.) Trying to get the attention to be the lower probability behavior and the higher one will be the release. When he wants to sniff, I can't feed him a food treat as the end result. Just won't happen. So the food treat in this case isn't part of the equation and I added the "go sniff" behavior in it's place as the end result. Or perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps I have to work on getting him to take a treat (the lower probability behavior) and then letting him sniff once he does. And in time the treat will be considered a high probability behavior when outdoors. And eventually become the only reinforcer he needs? Not sure if that is how Premack works exactly, but it sounds good in theory haha

The park is only Humpy Town (lol) when one of those 2 dogs are there. Otherwise he will play a bit and sniff a lot. I've considered doing formal agility. I built my own adjustable weave poles and practice those with him out back all the time (learned via clicker training with the reward being his tug toy at the end). He's quite good at it. I only take him to the dog park on special occasions now that he is very well socialized with people and dogs. I take him there when I feel like I haven't gotten him out and about enough in a while to meet new people/dogs. But I agree, I don't think he needs it. I'll see if there are any good/affordable formal beginner agility classes around here that I can take him to.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

sashadog said:


> Honestly, it sounds like he might need more correction. Nothing over the top but a lot of dogs, especially GSD's, only can last so long on *purely* positive reinforcement. Once they know what's expected of them, I don't think there's anything wrong with correcting them when they decide to not do the right thing.
> 
> Have you read the thread on here about "Mind Games?" That might be a good thing to start. I would also take DianaM's advice about more classes, more structure, and a prong. Maybe someone with more experience will come along and comment as well but I've never heard of a male marking without lifting his leg... isn't half the "marking behavior" marking higher than other dogs? Not solely obviously but that is interesting...


I have strayed from pure positive and done a little correcting, but nothing physical. I give him feed back every day by using "ah ah!" and he gets it. If he gets too close to the food on the table and I say that, he will back off knowing thats not the right thing to do. If he is about to book it outside and I say it, he stops. It isn't the same correction most people do. It isn't a punishment, just telling him what he is doing is not what I'm expecting. My punishments come in the form of taking away whatever is fun to him. If he nips, I remove myself from play time, the fun stops. If I ask for a sit and he doesn't sit but wants the treat in my hand, I ignore him. But in distractions, telling him "ah ah" isn't enough. When walking briskly on a walk and he pulls, I've tried giving a quick snap on the leash (EZ walk harness) which corrects him by reminding him that I am there for a quick moment. Sometimes it lasts a few minutes but most of the time it stops him for about half a second.

The marking without lifting is still marking. That is just how he pees. He's never raised his leg and it begs the heck out of me. Because ever since we got him at 8 weeks, I've been wiping his paws with grooming wipes 9/10 times he goes to the bathroom. He hits is paws almost every time. He marks the same way. I know it is marking because if I'd let him, he'd pee for a second on a patch of grass, move on, and pee again, repeat while walking down the sidewalk now.


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## sabledog (Mar 13, 2012)

Do yourself a favor, get a pinch collar, and give a solid correction.

Eta. What you're doing isn't black and white. The dog needs to know what's wrong, not just what's right. None of this has to do with the dog being intact, it has to do with training.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Just an FYI, the behaviors in your title are not specific to intact dogs. I own a private dog park and dog daycare and see those behaviors just as often in neutered dogs as intact dogs (actually more common in the earlier neuters).


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

My boy is a mutt, but an intact mutt, and I totally understand where you are coming from. You can train, train, train, give corrections, all of it -- but they are so obsessed with sniffing and marking. 

My boy loves to lick where my spayed females pee. He loves to sniff.... everything. As DianaM suggested, I think scentwork might be a good way to go for us perhaps, considering his over the top interest in sniffing... *everything.*.

I've considered neutering prior to my original plan of 18 - 24 months. He just gets so fixated on sniffing. When walking, at class, anywhere, everywhere,,, sniff, sniffy, sniff. I don't know if he is sniffing after females, or just sniffing because things smell so great, but it is hard! I don't want to keep "correcting" for sniffing. 

I am going to try a nosework class of some kind to try to direct this behavior into something positive, but if it just purely sexual, I will just go ahead and neuter. For us, this nonstop desire to sniff everything is a detriment. My dog is not being disobedient with the sniffing, it's as though he is just crazy driven to do it. That may sound naive on my part, but he really is borderline obsessive once he gets to sniffing and I have to constantly bring him back into focus -- and he looks at me like, -- OH! Sorry, mom! This guy can focus like no other any other time -- working in the house or yard, but other environments? No. Gotta sniff.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

bocron said:


> Just an FYI, the behaviors in your title are not specific to intact dogs. I own a private dog park and dog daycare and see those behaviors just as often in neutered dogs as intact dogs (actually more common in the earlier neuters).


:thumbup: This is also my experience.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

bboylayz said:


> I have strayed from pure positive and done a *little correcting, but nothing physical*. I give him feed back every day by using "ah ah!" and he gets it. If he gets too close to the food on the table and I say that, he will back off knowing thats not the right thing to do. If he is about to book it outside and I say it, he stops. It isn't the same correction most people do.* It isn't a punishment, just telling him what he is doing is not what I'm expecting*. My punishments come in the form of *taking away whatever is fun to him.* If he nips, I remove myself from play time, the fun stops. If I ask for a sit and he doesn't sit but wants the treat in my hand, I ignore him. But in distractions, telling him "ah ah" isn't enough. When walking briskly on a walk and he pulls, I've tried giving a quick snap on the leash (EZ walk harness) which corrects him by reminding him that I am there for a quick moment. Sometimes it lasts a few minutes but most of the time it stops him for about half a second.
> 
> The marking without lifting is still marking. That is just how he pees. He's never raised his leg and it begs the heck out of me. Because ever since we got him at 8 weeks, I've been wiping his paws with grooming wipes 9/10 times he goes to the bathroom. He hits is paws almost every time. He marks the same way. I know it is marking because if I'd let him, he'd pee for a second on a patch of grass, move on, and pee again, repeat while walking down the sidewalk now.


Sounds like your dog is doing a great job of training you. Reminds me of my pushy self confident male GSD. Doesn't sound like your dog has the respect level for you that he should have.

He "nips" you and you just move away from him? That is his "punishment" - I couldn't see that working for many dogs - some it might but not the ones who think it is ok to "nip" their owners (other than little puppies of course).

Same with marking - my guy likes to do it a lot as well. A quick pop with his leash and a "No" or similar command will work wonders - but you have to watch him like a hawk and get him just as he starts it or gets into position.

Sounds like you might have a dog who NEEDS a physical correction or two to gain back his respect for you,

Just an opinion (based on some experience with three very head strong pushy confident dogs (I would say "Dominant" but ewe know what reaction that would bring from a number of people on this forum!).

Good luck and keep us informed with what you end up doing with your dog.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Sounds like your dog is doing a great job of training you. Reminds me of my pushy self confident male GSD. Doesn't sound like your dog has the respect level for you that he should have.
> 
> He "nips" you and you just move away from him? That is his "punishment" - I couldn't see that working for many dogs - some it might but not the ones who think it is ok to "nip" their owners (other than little puppies of course).


The nipping was just an example of how I'd "punish" it. But he doesn't do that to me. Not since play nipping when he was a puppy. And that's exactly how I corrected it back then. I'd say he has plenty of respect for me. If he didn't, he wouldn't ever listen. It's definitely a distraction issue not a respect issue I'd say. In the house, I can get him to do competition style heeling just for permission to exit the open door! He will listen if I tell him to wait. And he'll give eye contact as long as I ask for it until I release him. He has focus on me like no other in a stress free environment.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

bboylayz said:


> *The nipping was just an example* of how I'd "punish" it. *But he doesn't do that to me*. Not since play nipping when he was a puppy. And that's exactly how I corrected it back then. *I'd say he has plenty of respect for me.* If he didn't, he wouldn't ever listen. It's definitely a distraction issue not a respect issue I'd say. *(see below - about your control - and need for any help!)* In the house, *("a classical line in Obedience training = "But he does it in my house!)* I can get him to do competition style heeling just for permission to exit the open door! He will listen if I tell him to wait. *And he'll give eye contact as long as I ask for it* until I release him. *He has focus on me like no other in a stress free environment*.


Have you ever heard (in your training experience), of the concept of "Proofing"? 

If not, try to look it up. If you have, maybe you should try applying it to your dog?

You said in an earlier post -"If he nips, I remove myself from play time, the fun stops.".

*Now you are saying that he doesn't actually "nip" you, you just made that up?*

*Sounds like you have your dog under great control in your mind and don't really need any help with him. Certainly not with that level of focus on you that you mention just above. *

*I mistakenly thought that he blew you off in a really distracting environment (outside of your house and back yard). *

*So it really seems like that you are doing a great job with him!*

*So good luck with him!*


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Have you ever heard (in your training experience), of the concept of "Proofing"?
> 
> If not, try to look it up. If you have, maybe you should try applying it to your dog?
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if any of that was sincere and that was just a load of sarcasm or not. I'm leaning towards the fact that that was all sarcasm sprinkled in with littler bits of good advice, like practice proofing. And yes I try and practice proofing but the difference between being in the house and being out are HUGE for him making proofing very very difficult.

And I yes, he doesn't nip anymore. He used to when he was a puppy. And I removed myself from play time if he did. So no I didn't lie. I was giving an example of "negative punishment' (as opposed to "positive punishment" which most people would call a "correction").

I don't see why your comments are becoming more and more abrasive. I don't think anyone is on this forum here to make enemies and get into arguments. I'm simply trying to give you guys a picture of what I've tried, and my relationship with my dog so you can better understand my situation and provide some help.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

And if that wasn't sarcasm, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

But if you want to see what level I have him on in and outside of the house, I can take videos so you can see what he's like. I mean, outside of the house, he isn't dragging me down the road. He just doesn't want to pay any attention to me unless we are stopped.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

If he is ignoring you in most situations outside of the house, I would have to disagree with your saying that he does respect you. If he truly respected you, he would be a bit more eager to listen to you in all situations. I'm not saying that he'd be perfect or never get distracted but the picture you've painted is one where he basically ignores you outside the house. In the house, you're the coolest thing around and he knows how to get what he wants but when you leave the house, he gets what he wants without you (sniffing, marking, meeting other dogs, etc.). 

Dogs not only need to know what is right but also receive a CLEAR definition of what is wrong. Don't you ever remove yourself from a playtime simply because you're done playing? Or take him away from other dogs at the park because it's time to leave? How is that different in his mind than removing him or yourself because he did something wrong? You know have a mature, strong, male GSD and from the sounds of it, it might be time to adjust your training methods to suit your maturing dog?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

bboylayz said:


> I'm not sure if any of that was sincere and that was just a load of sarcasm or not. I'm leaning towards the fact that that was all sarcasm sprinkled in with littler bits of good advice, like practice proofing. And yes I try and practice proofing but the difference between being in the house and being out are HUGE for him making proofing very very difficult.
> 
> And I yes, he doesn't nip anymore. *He used to when he was a puppy*.*That is not what you said!*
> And I removed myself from play time if he did. So no I didn't lie. I was giving an example of "negative punishment' (as opposed to "positive punishment" which most people would call a "correction"). *How about calling it "Showing the dog that he did something he was not supposed to do at the time" - so he learns that?*
> ...


 * And so you have!*


Proofing means exactly this - you teach a behavior in a distraction free environment (like your house or back yard) THEN you introduce the dog to increasingly higher level of distraction (i.e. other dogs, people, noise, etc. etc. etc.) and INSIST on the same reliable behavior that you once saw in the distraction free environment.

Many many trainers today do not believe in "Proofing" and instead will make up all kinds of excuses for an unreliable trained dog! 

Because "proofing" includes corrections when the dog doesn't behave reliably and does something that he is supposed to already have learned.

For example, a person who I train with will not let her husband come to a show or even a training class, because "The dog will not listen if he sees her husband" Ridiculous!

This dog needs training and Proofing!

Sounds like your dog knows things and will do them when he wants to or feels like it, BUT not in a heavy distraction environment. Hence my suggestion that you "Proof" him, BUT realize that to make the concept work you will have to correct your dog and MAKE him obey. Simply taking the dog out of the environment with distractions WILL NOT WORK with some dogs (Like mine for example!) 

But remember the concept of increasing the level of distraction gradually.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

sashadog said:


> If he is ignoring you in most situations outside of the house, I would have to disagree with your saying that he does respect you. If he truly respected you, he would be a bit more eager to listen to you in all situations. I'm not saying that he'd be perfect or never get distracted but the picture you've painted is one where he basically ignores you outside the house. In the house, you're the coolest thing around and he knows how to get what he wants but when you leave the house, he gets what he wants without you (sniffing, marking, meeting other dogs, etc.).
> 
> Dogs not only need to know what is right but also receive a CLEAR definition of what is wrong. Don't you ever remove yourself from a playtime simply because you're done playing? Or take him away from other dogs at the park because it's time to leave? How is that different in his mind than removing him or yourself because he did something wrong? You know have a mature, strong, male GSD and from the sounds of it, it might be time to adjust your training methods to suit your maturing dog?


Maybe there is a slight respect issue, but I think I'm painting the picture worse than it actually is. I'm pointing out the worst case scenarios. When he is tuckered out from an hour of play out back, he is much more manageable. I think its puppy eagerness. After all, he is only a year and 3 months old. Is it even a possibility that it could just be that? He's a puppy with raging hormones? I don't want to make excuses, but I don't want to rule everything out either. I'd say he is easily distracted. Like I said, he don't even eat a piece of cheese or peanut butter if I stuff it down his throat when he spots a dog to play with in the distance. He would just start to pant and just stare.

But yes, I will try and change up my training methods slightly and see if that makes a difference. But I don't want to create a scared and anxious dog at the end of the day from too much physical correction.

Again, the part about me removing myself was just an example of how I'd end playtime if he misbehaved. I could easily just remove him as well. Don't harp on that detail. It was just an example. I don't give into his every desire. In fact, I rarely do! For example, when he whines, he never gets anything. Ever. Period. I wait until the whining subsides and stays quiet for a while before I do anything he wants. For example, car rides. If we park the car and he flips out out of excitement, he can throw a tantrum whining like "i wanna play i wwanna play!" for a while. Sometimes a few seconds, sometimes a few minutes. If it goes on, I wait it out and wait for it to me completely quiet before making a move. Still working on this but its getting better.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

sashadog said:


> If he is ignoring you in most situations outside of the house, I would have to disagree with your saying that he does respect you. If he truly respected you, he would be a bit more eager to listen to you in all situations. I'm not saying that he'd be perfect or never get distracted but the picture you've painted is one where he basically ignores you outside the house. In the house, you're the coolest thing around and he knows how to get what he wants but when you leave the house, he gets what he wants without you (sniffing, marking, meeting other dogs, etc.).
> 
> Dogs not only need to know what is right but also receive a CLEAR definition of what is wrong. Don't you ever remove yourself from a playtime simply because you're done playing? Or take him away from other dogs at the park because it's time to leave? How is that different in his mind than removing him or yourself because he did something wrong? You know have a mature, strong, male GSD and from the sounds of it, it might be time to adjust your training methods to suit your maturing dog?


Amen!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

bboylayz said:


> And if that wasn't sarcasm, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
> 
> But if you want to see what level I have him on in and outside of the house, I can take videos so you can see what he's like. I mean, outside of the house, he isn't dragging me down the road. *He just doesn't want to pay any attention to me *unless we are stopped.


 
*Respect! *
*What do you do to make him pay attention to you?*


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

codmaster said:


> * And so you have!*
> 
> 
> Proofing means exactly this - you teach a behavior in a distraction free environment (like your house or back yard) THEN you introduce the dog to increasingly higher level of distraction (i.e. other dogs, people, noise, etc. etc. etc.) and INSIST on the same reliable behavior that you once saw in the distraction free environment.
> ...


Just because I talk in present tense when I give an example, doesn't mean it is actually happening. He doesn't nip anymore! Why would I lie about this!!

I understand proofing. But like I said, stepping it up and just stepping out to my front lawn is enough for him to get super anxious/excited so it is tough to proof well! I haven't given up, I still try. I need to somehow find a middle ground. Or something worth him paying attention to me for once we step outside.

What do you suggest as far as a correction besides inflicting pain on my dog? Is there any middle ground? The last thing I want to do is spank my dog when he doesn't listen to me right away. I know some people are OK with that, but I for one am not.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

With Dakoda, a stern voice is sometimes enough. Other times, try tapping two fingers on his neck (not hard, but firmly). It may work if you make a strange noise to get his attention, then praise him when he focuses on you. 

Just a few ideas that have worked for me and friends in the past


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Just to go back to technicalities since everyone is seeming to dwell on it, I said exactly this: "If he nips, I remove myself from play time, the fun stops. If I ask for a sit and he doesn't sit but wants the treat in my hand, I ignore him."

It was present tense writing to explain a hypothetical situation. I could have easily replaced "he" with "a dog". It would read: "If a dog nips, I remove myself from play time, the fun stops. If I ask for a sit and the dog doesn't sit but wants the treat in my hand, I ignore him."

The point I was trying to make was that this is how I handle corrections (whether it is right or wrong). Just trying to paint a picture of how I have trained in the past and am looking for some pointers on, which you guys have provided. But again, HE DOESN'T NIP ANYMORE. He has absolutely no signs of aggression to me, anyone else, or any other dog. But yes, maybe he doesn't respect me in a alpha/beta role kind of way and maybe that is part of the problem.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> With Dakoda, a stern voice is sometimes enough. Other times, try tapping two fingers on his neck (not hard, but firmly). It may work if you make a strange noise to get his attention, then praise him when he focuses on you.
> 
> Just a few ideas that have worked for me and friends in the past


Thanks!


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm curious what everyone's idea of respect is and controlling respect. I've always looked at it as: to be "dominant" or simply the one in charge, you must have control over resources. Resources can mean anything from food to access to play or access to meeting new people/dogs. Is this completely incorrect? I've always seen it as as long as he doesn't get what he wants unless he checks in with me, he isn't controlling the situation. At the end of the day, I've always won and gotten him to do what I want before he does what HE wants (and no, he doesn't always get to do what he wants just cause he wants to do it. i get the final decision on what he can and cant do), but it's always a battle to get to that point. My goal is to make a distraction no longer distracting. Maybe the problem is in my definition of respect in a dog's world and so I've always looked at it wrong (which may be why I've always strayed away from any traditional corrections).


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

bboylayz said:


> Just to go back to technicalities since everyone is seeming to dwell on it, I said exactly this: "If he nips, I remove myself from play time, the fun stops. If I ask for a sit and he doesn't sit but wants the treat in my hand, I ignore him."
> 
> It was present tense writing to explain a hypothetical situation. I could have easily replaced "he" with "a dog". It would read: "If a dog nips, I remove myself from play time, the fun stops. If I ask for a sit and the dog doesn't sit but wants the treat in my hand, I ignore him."
> 
> *The point I was trying to make was that this is how I handle corrections (whether it is right or wrong).* Just trying to paint a picture of how I have trained in the past and am looking for some pointers on, which you guys have provided. But again, HE DOESN'T NIP ANYMORE. He has absolutely no signs of aggression to me, anyone else, or any other dog. But yes, maybe he doesn't respect me in a alpha/beta role kind of way and maybe that is part of the problem.


But it's not working. That's why your asking for other suggestions. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's about what works on the individual dog in the situation you're in. When training dogs, the best trainers have a ton of tools, techniques, and options so that they can pull out whatever combination a certain dog may need in order to succeed. 

And you say that maybe you're painting a picture worse than it is but then you say that even stepping out onto the front lawn hypes him up to the point of ignoring you? At this point you've raised a solid, confident dog and now it's time to introduce more structure. Corrections aren't about inflicting pain, they're about enforcing rules and reminding him that there are actual consequences for misbehavior. It sounds like he's caught onto the routine and has decided that "the consequences" that he gets right now are worth going ahead and doing what he wants to do anyway. That means it's time to change it up...


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

sashadog said:


> But it's not working. That's why your asking for other suggestions. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's about what works on the individual dog in the situation you're in. When training dogs, the best trainers have a ton of tools, techniques, and options so that they can pull out whatever combination a certain dog may need in order to succeed.
> 
> And you say that maybe you're painting a picture worse than it is but then you say that even stepping out onto the front lawn hypes him up to the point of ignoring you? At this point you've raised a solid, confident dog and now it's time to introduce more structure. Corrections aren't about inflicting pain, they're about enforcing rules and reminding him that there are actual consequences for misbehavior. It sounds like he's caught onto the routine and has decided that "the consequences" that he gets right now are worth going ahead and doing what he wants to do anyway. That means it's time to change it up...


I pointed out the "whether it is right or wrong" because I'm willing to change it up. Just trying to get more info instead of just trying the first thing I hear.

It's weird, he doesn't get to do anything when he gets hyped up. I keep him controlled and don't let him proceed on his walk until he calms down and gives me some attention. But it just takes a while longer than I'd like. So yes, I am now considering more corrections to speed up the process.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

bboylayz said:


> I pointed out the "whether it is right or wrong" because I'm willing to change it up. Just trying to get more info instead of just trying the first thing I hear.
> 
> It's weird, he doesn't get to do anything when he gets hyped up. I keep him controlled and don't let him proceed on his walk until he calms down and gives me some attention. But it just takes a while longer than I'd like. So yes, I am now considering more corrections to speed up the process.


Like I said, and have recently discovered first hand while working through a bunch of issues with our girl Sasha, I really believe that they more tools that you understand and could possibly use if needed the better off you'll be. Everything from positive reinforcement to prong collars to various Mind Games and NILF type regimens can help you and your relationship with your pup  We've even implemented massage, herbal supplements, and just started BAT training after reaching a dead end with other training methods.

Did you search for "Mind Games" on the forum yet? It sounds like you're already doing some of it but it might be worth tightening things up a bit?


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

sashadog said:


> Like I said, and have recently discovered first hand while working through a bunch of issues with our girl Sasha, I really believe that they more tools that you understand and could possibly use if needed the better off you'll be. Everything from positive reinforcement to prong collars to various Mind Games and NILF type regimens can help you and your relationship with your pup  We've even implemented massage, herbal supplements, and just started BAT training after reaching a dead end with other training methods.
> 
> Did you search for "Mind Games" on the forum yet? It sounds like you're already doing some of it but it might be worth tightening things up a bit?


Sounds like Mind Games is basically NILIF right? Just did a quick search, will look around more in a bit though. Thanks! I try to do NILIF style training in everything I do with him and although I don't know all of the specific requirements for a strict NILIF, I think what I do falls in line with it. Nothing he does he gets to do for free. But I am completely open to tightening it up. I'll review NILIF again and follow it to the T and check out Mind Games as well. I like the idea of having more tools/tricks at my disposal. Thanks!


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

This isn't me trying to prove my methods are working, this is simply to show the level of focus I have with him at home (and yes he will do these tricks even when we aren't playing and when I'm not treating him so long we as we are in a non distracting environment). This is to show the level of focus I want to eventually have with him out in the wild.

Playing in the back yard with Adobe - YouTube

Not perfect, but this is just a practice and play session. We never "just play", I'm always trying to teach him new things.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

First off, he's gorgeous!! Secondly, I think adding in some corrections will only help at this point. He obviously has a wonderful foundation but as he matures needs a different kind of motivation as an adult. And it doesn't mean that it's one or the other, just to add in a physical correction when the positive reinforcement isn't more exciting than the distractions you'll encounter. I just can't get over how gorgeous he is!!


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks! He's a DDR bi-color . Still got some filling out to do, but he's growing nice and slow (which is why I don't intend to neuter for a while to come. I want him to fully develop first)


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

A really great way to correct is to use your body. If he sniffs or pulls, walk into him like he isn't there. He will move or you will move him, but either way the head will come back up and you can continue walking. This is a form of pressure. As soon as he moves, you move away to relieve the pressure.

As mentioned, proof proof proof. If he is solid on commands outside, start from the very beginning outside as if he does not know the command. Repeat repeat repeat. Repetition builds consistency and habit but do remember to mix it up. Make games out of it.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

bocron said:


> Just an FYI, the behaviors in your title are not specific to intact dogs. I own a private dog park and dog daycare and see those behaviors just as often in neutered dogs as intact dogs (actually more common in the earlier neuters).


Same here. My son's 20 pound spayed female tries to hump my female GSD. She also tries to take my GSD's toys and food. A brat is a brat .... poorly trained and uncontrolled dogs don't have to all be intact males.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

What's worked for me regarding the sniffing and marking (the only intact male behaviors my dog displays) is to simply not allow him the chance to do so.

For a long time any time we were out in public I'd be moving too quickly for him to do that. Kept on the same route for the most part too so he would be familiar with the pattern.

Eventually I slowed down enough that he could do those behaviors. When he did I'd give a verbal correction. He caught on very quick. I taught him a command (go be a pup) for when I'd allow him to run about and do as he pleased.

Repeated this process for one other location and that was pretty much all it took for him to get the idea that anywhere we are, the sniffing/outdoor marking is not something he ought to be doing unless I allow it. There are still times he slips up because I haven't proofed it well but a simple reminder works and for the most part, where we are now with this suits my needs just fine.

I am also on board with what has been recommended here, some physical corrections may help. Nothing PAINFUL. Just some sort of pressure to sort of ground his mind and remind him what he needs to be doing. I use a pinch collar with the leash on both rings so it doesn't slide. The prongs just apply pressure then and I've never seen evidence to suggest it is painful to him. The pressure really helps to ground him though and eliminate his nervousness in public. Also works to remind him to keep his nose up off the ground - he goes to sniff - huh, what's...oh, yeah that's right, gotta keep my head up, that's good.

I would have used touch, but A) I didn't want to risk my touch being associated with anything that is not positive (that means nothing neutral or marginally negative (such as the pressure I'm talking about) or very negative like pain, and B) his backline isn't high enough for me to comfortably reach while walking, and he tends to walk with his neck aligned with his spine, so I couldn't just touch his head either.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok too much to read through but I have intact males and simply do NOT allow them to mark. Period. They can go in my yard or designated areas on command. You figure most dogs probably have better control of their bladders than most people.

I change things up if he is not paying attention to me, whoops sudden stop, sudden turn, using a prong, Not talking about compulsion, gets a treat for doing good on his own. Often now without heeling on any command he looks at his face to make eye contact. Have you done training where you just have the dog look at you and connect with you? 

I do have a prong and I sure think it would be preferable to pushing the dog on the ground and holding him down.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

Mind Games


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

bboylayz said:


> Well, along with the obsessive and compulsive need to sniff, he's gotten into marking. And I only allow him to do it when I release him to sniff on walks. But he catches me off guard sometimes. And the worst thing is, he doesn't lift his legs ever (I have to wash his paws multiple times a day) so *I won't notice he's marking unless I hear it or smell it*. He just stands casually. And the reason why it is becoming a problem is because he's starting to do it in public (not in the house though). Even if there are no dog smells, if I'm walking and another dog comes up and they calmly greet eachother,* he will sniff the* *dog politely while peeing standing casually* (all over his front paws of course).


This would concern me. A male dog normally will at least slightly squat (if not lift a leg) when they urinate. Also - I can't recall ever smelling my dog's urine as he released. I would be concerned he had an infection of some sort. 

A dog who pees during a greeting is generally thought of as a submissive pee and not marking.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

You and I have talked before. We both have intact DDR males about the same age. Honestly, I don't know what I would have done if we hadn't been doing classes this whole time. If I weren't getting him out of the house every week to take him somewhere and work obedience and focus in the presence of 8-10 other dogs, in the presence of distracting smells, I'd probably be in the same place you are. I'd strongly recommend getting into some fun classes like rally or agility or nosework. 

I'm actually very physical with my dog. I won't hurt him, but like DianaM said, I definitely walk "through" him, bump him with my knees, bodily place him in the position I want him to be in, etc. He wears a prong collar and if he stops to mark while we're out on a walk. . . I just keep walking. He's got until I hit the end of the leash to stop peeing or he's going to get a self-correction. Spanking is stupid and dogs don't understand it. Never spank a dog. I also still carry around little thumbnail-size bits of hot dog or cheese to reinforce desired behaviors. As a result of this combination of positive and negative, I _do _have that level of focus you're talking about while out in the street, in the waiting room at the vet's office, at the pet store with strange dogs, etc.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Ok too much to read through but I have intact males and simply do NOT allow them to mark. Period. They can go in my yard or designated areas on command. You figure most dogs probably have better control of their bladders than most people.
> 
> I change things up if he is not paying attention to me, whoops sudden stop, sudden turn, using a prong, Not talking about compulsion, gets a treat for doing good on his own. Often now without heeling on any command he looks at his face to make eye contact. Have you done training where you just have the dog look at you and connect with you?
> 
> I do have a prong and I sure think it would be preferable to pushing the dog on the ground and holding him down.


I do that with my girl too. Now when she knows there are ducks on the street to distract her sometimes she will look at me while walking because she knows she will get a treat for being good.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BTW the licking the ground is him probably smelling females in estrus. Many boys do become extremely distracted at this age and if your dog is one, you need to look at doing some different things. 
The obvious solution if you can't seem to manage him at dog parks and the like, is to go ahead and neuter. 
The chances of him being affected negatively by neutering now are pretty much past as he's post-pubertal.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I had one who was still very much into females in heat after an adult neuter and an intact male who could work side by side with one in heat. But yes licking pee on the ground, usually female, is something the boys seem to like to do.

Yes I am keeping mine intact but he will have to learn to ignore females in heat. I do not do dog parks and have no social issues with the pup yet. 

At 9 months he is starting to have more frequent erections and once in awhile air humping (which I tell him to knock it off and give a short pop for that) but he would not have opportunity to mount another dog. Good way to get into a fight.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I had one who was still very much into females in heat after an adult neuter and an intact male who could work side by side with one in heat. But yes licking pee on the ground, usually female, is something the boys seem to like to do.
> 
> Yes I am keeping mine intact but he will have to learn to ignore females in heat. I do not do dog parks and have no social issues with the pup yet.
> 
> At 9 months he is starting to have more frequent erections and once in awhile air humping (which I tell him to knock it off and give a short pop for that) but he would not have opportunity to mount another dog. Good way to get into a fight.


My girl just started her 2nd heat cycle last night. I am on high alert while walking her.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Some boys just get "into it" more than others, and all they think about is the kitty!

BTW, that comment comes from doing years of rescue and finding out that slightly post-puberty is one of the most difficult times to deal with some boys, not just owning mostly neutered and then an intact male.

I know neutered boys can still perform and even tie with a female, but at least there's no oopsies. We've not had this happen in our our home or in rescue but I hear of it.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

Couple different things. First I think a prong collar would help you out a great deal. I understand you want positive only, but you have a dog that views you as an object that can be played with when he wants and when there is something more interesting to do, you lose value. You need to build up your value and let your dog still have down time. 
 When I walk my dogs for fun, they have to heel (which is not their competition heeling which is the german command) it is just walking nicely by my side but without the looking up at me. Then I say ok and they are allowed to sniff and mark or whatever they want as long as they don’t pull. Pulling results in more heeling. My border collie can do this all on a flat collar. My DDR/Czech/WGWL intact male, needs a prong, to self-correct, although I can do it on a flat collar it is much more relaxing for both of us with him on his prong. 
Next, to up your value and get your dog to have more focus on you with no corrections, you need to limit his outlets of energy to productive ones. Meaning he doesn’t get to play with other dogs, walk around off leash at the dog park, or eat his meals from a bowl. Your boy looks very good, but isn’t starving so if I was you I would take out his meals and make him work for every crumb, not in your house but in the front yard. If he ignores you day one, then put up the food and he gets none until the next day, if he ignores you then, go to day three. He clearly understands lots of commands and has great understanding of marker work, you just need to build up motivation. Social isolation can also work wonders, meaning crate time unless working. These aren’t long term things, just until your boy understands to focus when asked no matter where he is. Again this could all be not needed if you put a prong on him and correct him for not giving you attention and then feeding/playing with him when he does. 
NO amount of work at home will solve this issue, because you are the most interesting thing for him at home, you must get out and work him in other areas all the time, that is the only thing that will get you the focus you want. One of the other posters recommended a class and I think that is a GREAT idea. I can train my dogs myself easily, I have worked as a dog trainer for years, however I still sign all of my puppies up for basic obedience classes because I want them to learn from the first day to learn in all different environments/distractions.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

MilesNY said:


> Couple different things. First I think a prong collar would help you out a great deal. I understand you want positive only, but you have a dog that views you as an object that can be played with when he wants and when there is something more interesting to do, you lose value. You need to build up your value and let your dog still have down time.
> When I walk my dogs for fun, they have to heel (which is not their competition heeling which is the german command) it is just walking nicely by my side but without the looking up at me. Then I say ok and they are allowed to sniff and mark or whatever they want as long as they don’t pull. Pulling results in more heeling. My border collie can do this all on a flat collar. My DDR/Czech/WGWL intact male, needs a prong, to self-correct, although I can do it on a flat collar it is much more relaxing for both of us with him on his prong.
> Next, to up your value and get your dog to have more focus on you with no corrections, you need to limit his outlets of energy to productive ones. Meaning he doesn’t get to play with other dogs, walk around off leash at the dog park, or eat his meals from a bowl. Your boy looks very good, but isn’t starving so if I was you I would take out his meals and make him work for every crumb, not in your house but in the front yard. If he ignores you day one, then put up the food and he gets none until the next day, if he ignores you then, go to day three. He clearly understands lots of commands and has great understanding of marker work, you just need to build up motivation. Social isolation can also work wonders, meaning crate time unless working. These aren’t long term things, just until your boy understands to focus when asked no matter where he is. Again this could all be not needed if you put a prong on him and correct him for not giving you attention and then feeding/playing with him when he does.
> NO amount of work at home will solve this issue, because you are the most interesting thing for him at home, you must get out and work him in other areas all the time, that is the only thing that will get you the focus you want. One of the other posters recommended a class and I think that is a GREAT idea. I can train my dogs myself easily, I have worked as a dog trainer for years, however I still sign all of my puppies up for basic obedience classes because I want them to learn from the first day to learn in all different environments/distractions.


Thanks for all of this. Very helpful insight!


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

Also forgot to add, you control all toys, none are left down for him to play with alone. You decide when he can play with them. And I would do the same thing as your do with the food, no toys in the backyard, start in the front yard and work out from there. A week with no play time in the backyard you will be surprised at how much he starts to want his toys more in other places.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

MilesNY said:


> Also forgot to add, you control all toys, none are left down for him to play with alone. You decide when he can play with them. And I would do the same thing as your do with the food, no toys in the backyard, start in the front yard and work out from there. A week with no play time in the backyard you will be surprised at how much he starts to want his toys more in other places.


Makes sense. I also wanted to note that I don't ever feed him out of a bowl. Since taking him home at 8 weeks, he's worked for every bit of food. So he works for his kibble. But I like the part about doing it outdoors and if he doesn't want to eat outside, he gets nothing. I think that is particularly very very helpful advice. Essentially that would force him to do some proofing work with him outside, otherwise, no food.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

Yup, and when he is hungry enough he will work, since you already have him use to working for his dinner he will understand the concept even faster. Getting him to play with you in other places is equally if not more important because if he is anything like most of the working line dogs I know, the play will be far more motivating than the food at some point. My dog will pass over any amount of food for a ball or tug. I still find food useful for training new things because it keeps his drive level in a range where he can think more.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

MilesNY said:


> Yup, and when he is hungry enough he will work, since you already have him use to working for his dinner he will understand the concept even faster. Getting him to play with you in other places is equally if not more important because if he is anything like most of the working line dogs I know, the play will be far more motivating than the food at some point. My dog will pass over any amount of food for a ball or tug. I still find food useful for training new things because it keeps his drive level in a range where he can think more.


Right, it has already hit that point where he'd rather play than eat if there is a toy around. Which is why being outside (play time in his eyes probably) is difficult to train with food now! But I guess I've never kept him hungry enough to train outside yet. So I'll try that starting this week


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