# Trouble with Ben



## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

I have a one year old German Shepherd with some Shiloh in him. He has been extensively trained, in classes and privately. He is the sweetest mush and very loving. But only with us. Over the past 3 months he has become increasingly aggressive. It is at the point where he growls, barks, and snaps at strangers as well as people he knows. He cannot be around children at all. 
We have tried everything, including contacting the breeder. We cannot keep him because we have a friendly neighborhood with kids and nice people who visit and come into the yard. We cannot have our closest friends to visit because they have 2 children. We went to a breeder in the first place because we couldn't have a vicious dog, but that's what Ben has become. I am diabetic with health issues, and wanted Ben to be a service dog for me. My 15 year old son has Aspergers, ADHD, OCD, and severe anxiety. On the positive side, we have a 7 pound toy poodle whom Ben loves. He plays gently with her, and she is the boss. He also has 2 best dog friends in the neighborhood. 
Does anyone know a home that might take Ben?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Are you able to contact the breeder? One of the reasons I use only responsible breeders is because they always help with issues and will always take a dog back!


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Are you able to contact the breeder? One of the reasons I use only responsible breeders is because they always help with issues and will always take a dog back!


Hi MaggieRose, I did contact the breeder. She quickly escalated to hysteria (I have to find out what happened, you have to talk to my husband, we have to come to your house (5-1/2 hours away) tomorrow morning, what have you done to him....). There were red flags with her from day one that I ignored because I wanted a dog so badly - I am so stupid!). I don't know if she would have taken him back, she never said so, but she did mention euthanasia, and if she hadn't killed him he would have lived his life outside in a kennel. I couldn't do that to him.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Contact a rescue immediately to keep him out of the hands of this person. That is his best chance.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

So sad  Have you contacted any rescues in your area? The reality is, it will be hard to rehome as is. But if you could maybe get someone experienced with GSD's and aggression issues to evaluate him and give an opinion on whether he could be rehabilitated in the right home?


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

Here's what we've been dealing with so far: our local humane society won't take him because of his aggression. One of our trainers and the vet say he should be put down. Another trainer says try a rescue but the humane society says the waiting lists at rescues are so long they won't take an aggressive dog. We called the Tufts Animal Behavior clinic and can see Dr. Doddman, but that's $500 and it would be so complicated we wouldn't be able to consistently follow through.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Have you done any bloodwork to rule out medical issues? Have you tried finding someone familiar with GSDs to evaluate him?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Have you tried contacting German Shepherd Rescue of New England? They may be able to help.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> Have you tried contacting German Shepherd Rescue of New England? They may be able to help.


They won't take owner surrenders, but they might be able to recommend a behaviorist.


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Have you done any bloodwork to rule out medical issues? Have you tried finding someone familiar with GSDs to evaluate him?


We haven't done bloodwork, great suggestion. Our vet has prescribed Prozac, which he will start tomorrow. As for the behaviorist, I need to find him a home as quickly as possible because I just can't risk keeping him any longer.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Is he neutered? What have you done to curb the behavior? What have the trainers been having you do? 

You are in a tough spot. Honestly, I don't have good advice for you. I am not a fan of giving advice on aggression in this media. But I do wish you well.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

jenniferyohalem said:


> I am diabetic with health issues, and wanted Ben to be a service dog for me. My 15 year old son has Aspergers, ADHD, OCD, and severe anxiety.


Maybe he is over stressed and cannot handle these issues. GSD's are very sensitive. A complete different, predictable home may work for him. This is not meant as an offense, just a different look, more form the dog's point of view.
Have you tried the approach that if he sees a stranger, to feed him treats? So he will start to associate these with something good.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jenniferyohalem said:


> We haven't done bloodwork, great suggestion. Our vet has prescribed Prozac, which he will start tomorrow. As for the behaviorist, *I need to find him a home as quickly as possible because I just can't risk keeping him any longer*.


Here is the problem with this statement. And I don't mean to be harsh but this is the reality.

There are not exactly homes lined up to take a dog that by your own admission is so aggressive towards your family and friends that you can not have them to your house. That is aggressive towards children that he can not be around them at all.



> *he growls, barks, and snaps at strangers as well as people he knows.* He cannot be around children at all.
> We have tried everything, including contacting the breeder.* We cannot keep him because we have a friendly neighborhood with kids and nice people who visit *and come into the yard. We cannot have our closest friends to visit because they have 2 children. *We went to a breeder in the first place because we couldn't have a vicious dog, but that's what Ben has become. *


I'm sorry but these situations make me angry. If Ben is this aggressive then you need to do the right thing by him and either work with a behaviorist or euthanize him. I'm sorry that you are in this situation, I truly am and I truly understand what it is like to live with a human aggressive dog as we had one, but WHY would you think it's ok to put another person in this situation? Why do you think someone else would take on this responsibility and liability?

Rescues are not going to take this dog. Not a chance. To many dogs that are not aggressive in need of home and to high liability. They don't need to be sued and they can't tie up a foster with an unadoptable dog.

I know my post is harsh. But this is the reality of the situation.


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

I am not trying to pass Ben off on anyone, which is why I was so brutally honest about what his issues are. We have been told similar things about the rescue organizations, and about how hard it would be to find him another home. Someone suggested we might want to try Tufts' behaviorist, Dr. Doddman, as a last ditch effort, for our own piece of mind, not because it would definitely work but because putting down our well-loved puppy is such an abhorrent thing to try to wrap your head around. Someone else suggested I try this forum because there might be someone who knows, or is, someone willing to take Ben. Or someone who might have suggestions we haven't heard or thought up. I mean no offense to anyone. I'm just trying to find some hope for my dog.


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

We do that literally thousands of times, in set up scenarios and in real ones.


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

Ben was a fearful puppy when we first got him. We, and the trainers, initially thought it was due to his age. But he only got slightly better over time and discussions were had over whether or not he would become fear-aggressive. Around 9 months old he started becoming slightly more aggressive. We noticed it first with our other dog. It was recommended we have him neutered, so we did (even though our breeder had a fit that we did it before he was 18-24 months old). He has only become progressively worse. We have only ever used positive reinforcement with him.


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

Your point about him being overly stressed in our home is valid. He has never seen any of us in crisis, but I will talk with my trainers and vet about your advice. Thanks.


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

Our trainers have us practicing coming in and out of the house, the doors, rooms, calling him to us, acting extra happy, not having people look him in the eyes, not having people look at him at all, not having people bend down toward him, giving him lots of praise, love, treats, exposure to different people/places/scenarios/other dogs.....We have worked with him since we got him. Only a little every day because all this exhausts him, and never without baby steps first, him feeling comfortable, and then more baby steps. Both my husband and I are experienced GSD owners and have had many rescue dogs plus a few purebreds.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

jenniferyohalem said:


> I am not trying to pass Ben off on anyone, which is why I was so brutally honest about what his issues are. We have been told similar things about the rescue organizations, and about how hard it would be to find him another home. Someone suggested we might want to try Tufts' behaviorist, Dr. Doddman, as a last ditch effort, for our own piece of mind, not because it would definitely work but because putting down our well-loved puppy is such an abhorrent thing to try to wrap your head around. Someone else suggested I try this forum because there might be someone who knows, or is, someone willing to take Ben. Or someone who might have suggestions we haven't heard or thought up. I mean no offense to anyone. I'm just trying to find some hope for my dog.


What about managing him? I have had aggressive dogs in the past, have a dog aggressive female GSD right now, and we manage her. What about fencing your back yard, privacy fence? Cage him when you have guests. And no dog parks for him. Leash and muzzle him (and learn to use a prong collar) as an alternative to caging him, and instruct everyone to just leave him alone, no guests approach him (but I would crate him if I wasn't confident of my own ability to control him). And by all means give him LOTS of work and exercise, and work with a trainer (a good GSD trainer) with him.

Aggression of this sort can turn into a vicious circle... You and your husband are expecting trouble from him, so you are uptight, he senses that and feels he has to guard and protect... 

I just noticed his age. This is the age when GSDs, if they feel they don't have the correct leadership, may try and take things into their own hands (paws). How did you react when he first started this behavior?

I really don't think that this dog is beyond help, I just wonder whether you and/or your husband maybe don't have the experience and correct assertiveness to handle a juvenile GSD, I don't mean to be mean, just honest. Did you research GSDs before you got him? Just wondering.

Susan


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

jenniferyohalem said:


> Ben was a fearful puppy when we first got him. We, and the trainers, initially thought it was due to his age. But he only got slightly better over time and discussions were had over whether or not he would become fear-aggressive. Around 9 months old he started becoming slightly more aggressive. We noticed it first with our other dog. It was recommended we have him neutered, so we did (even though our breeder had a fit that we did it before he was 18-24 months old). He has only become progressively worse. *We have only ever used positive reinforcement with him.*


And this does not work with all dogs. 

Susan


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

jenniferyohalem said:


> Our trainers have us practicing coming in and out of the house, the doors, rooms, calling him to us, acting extra happy, not having people look him in the eyes, not having people look at him at all, not having people bend down toward him, giving him lots of praise, love, treats, exposure to different people/places/scenarios/other dogs.....We have worked with him since we got him. *Only a little every day because all this exhausts him*, and never without baby steps first, him feeling comfortable, and then more baby steps. Both my husband and I are experienced GSD owners and have had many rescue dogs plus a few purebreds.


Are you sure?? I have yet to see a GSD so easily exhausted. Are you sure he's not getting bored, maybe too much repetition and not enough variety? How about mixing in play time?


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

Hi Susan, thank you for responding to me. I have never had an aggressive dog before, even a GSD. I live in a neighborhood where people of all ages like to walk for exercise (though not often since we live in a rural town), where people walk their dogs, where dogs sometimes get loose. We went to a breeder because we wanted to be sure our next GSD would NOT be aggressive, because of how and where we live. We were afraid a GSD from the humane society near our house might be or become aggressive. We looked on rescue sites too. Clearly I messed up big time using the breeder I did. We are not the right people to manage an aggressive dog. We never wanted an aggressive dog. I want to save Ben's life but I can't keep him.


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

He just about manages a 1 hour training class or session. Play time is how we do as much of our training as possible. Sometimes we work, sometimes we play, but it's all about learning and being loved. It's not mushiness, but it's worked with all our dogs except Ben, even the therapy dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jenniferyohalem said:


> Ben was a fearful puppy when we first got him. We, and the trainers, initially thought it was due to his age. But he only got slightly better over time and discussions were had over whether or not he would become fear-aggressive. Around 9 months old he started becoming slightly more aggressive. We noticed it first with our other dog. It was recommended we have him neutered, so we did (even though our breeder had a fit that we did it before he was 18-24 months old). He has only become progressively worse. *We have only ever used positive reinforcement with him*.


I think you need to find a balanced trainer that knows how to use all correction collars effectively. My dog was about 6 months old when he started lunging at other dogs. I put a nylon choke on him and took his air away for a split second. NO! You will not behave like that. Positive reinforcement is great. I use it 98% of the time. But it is ok to let a dog know, unequivocally, that a certain behavior will not be allowed.

That may not work for him. It may be that he is just anxiety filled and fear aggressive. But it's worth a try.

I've read some reports on Prozac making a situation worse. I have seen a DAP collar work for a dog. It was like flipping a switch. They either work immediately or not at all. You can look those up online. Adaptil? I think that is the manufacturer.

I would take him to Tufts if you can afford. When you find a good trainer, you don't need to go weekly. Do what you can.

And crate him when people are over. Don't leave him in the yard unattended. Get a sign and put it on your gate so ppl don't just stroll in.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

how far are you from Germantown, NY?


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

About an hour, why?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fabian Robinson is there. Excellent trainer. Not cheap but excellent.
K9 Team Training - Welcome to K9 Team Training
If he can't help you, maybe he can give you recommendations after evaluating your dog.


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## jenniferyohalem (Feb 27, 2015)

Thank you very much!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jennifer, are you practicing the NILIF (check it out on the forum) treatment with him? I am a trainer and have had succes with another dog (fear based aggression) lately with severe dog aggression. Nothing worked with treats, distraction etc. Until....I tried something I never did before: the no-nonsense attitude. To make a long story short: as soon as she saw the other dog, I told her "Leave It" and kept walking. It was as if she was relieved instantly that finally someone took charge and took the burden away from her. At the end of the hour session we stood together with people and other dogs and she was calmly sitting next to her owner. It was not cured though but manageable for her owner. I am not saying that this works with your dog but I decided to share this with you after reading Susan-GSD-Mom's comment that only positive approaches not work with all dogs.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

If it it anxiety, the Adaptil that Jax mentioned may or may not help. I don't want to overstep, but I might consider WAITING before doing any type of doggie prozac unless you get the chance to talk with a *veterinary behaviorist* - not just a regular vet. A vet behaviorist I work often with tells me a lot that she sees a LOT of vets prescribe dog prozac for nervy dogs where it just makes the case far worse. The Adaptil at worst would have no effect. The Prozac could very well put the situation out of your hands. I would meet with the trainer Jax suggested BEFORE starting a medication like that. You also want the trainer to see the behavior while it is free from the influence of drugs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Pax8 said:


> If it it anxiety, the Adaptil that Jax mentioned may or may not help. I don't want to overstep, but I might consider WAITING before doing any type of doggie prozac unless you get the chance to talk with a *veterinary behaviorist* - not just a regular vet. A vet behaviorist I work often with tells me a lot that she sees a LOT of vets prescribe dog prozac for nervy dogs where it just makes the case far worse. The Adaptil at worst would have no effect. The Prozac could very well put the situation out of your hands. I would meet with the trainer Jax suggested BEFORE starting a medication like that. You also want the trainer to see the behavior while it is free from the influence of drugs.


Great advice: Prozac is over-used as a fix-all and needs to be taken along with behavior modification under guidance of a veterinary behaviorist.


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