# Just Need Some Advice



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Alright, So I'm not sure how much more of this I can just sit and watch happen, but I don't know if there's anything that is legally wrong with this situation, maybe you guys can offer some advice...

Here's the deal. I'm leaning towards calling my neighbor a BYB and I think something needs to be done about it. She and her family have two Malinois, and they just had their third litter in 2 1/2 years, according to my Mother (I was back and forth between here and California for school, so she's kept better track than I have). They're kept walled off in the side area of their backyard and no attempt whatsoever has been made to separate them and keep them from breeding. Granted, I've seen the bitch when she was whelping one of the previous litters and the conditions were adequate from what I could tell (I'm no expert), but why no move has been made in the direction of sterilizing at least _one_ of the dogs is beyond me. I've never seen the dogs inside the house except for when the bitch is whelping puppies, but it doesn't seem as though they're being starved or mistreated. Though it's becoming quite apparent to me that all this family is interested in is making money off the puppies.

My Mother is well acquainted with the neighbor and I've talked to her many times myself. We've both hinted to her about spaying the female, even about free clinics at the Humane Society, though she should darn well be able to afford it after selling all these litters, yet she just had _another_ one! It's just getting ridiculous. She keeps saying, "Ohhh, I know, I need to get her spayed, I'm going to, blah blah...", and just shrugs it off. The family seems nice, as I said, my Mother is more acquainted than I am, but it doesn't justify what's happening with the dogs. I'm not sure if it's my place to call someone since no abuse is taking place, per se, nor do I really want to start a war with the neighbors, but this has to stop.

Do I just continue to turn a blind eye and frown upon what's happening? What would you guys do?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

There's not really anything you can do. THey are doing absolutely nothing illegal and you are barely acquianted with them. Stinks, but I think that's the fact. The people obviously KNOW what they should be doing, but aren't interested in doing it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I also don't think there is anything you can do. Not against the law to be a backyard breeder.

They aren't going to stop, it's making money for them....


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Well they may be making some effort to seperate them when the female is coming into heat, even if you don't see it, because females typically come into heat every 5 - 6 months. So in theory she could be whelping a full litter twice a year. Thus, in 2 1/2 yrs they would've had 5 litters. I don't think 3 is unreasonable in that time period, so it sounds like a couple heats have been skipped which is at least a break for the female in between litters.

There's nothing they're doing wrong legally. Nothing you can do. If you don't want to ruin your neighbor relations, this is one of those times where you keep your opinion to yourself unfortunately. It's clear you've discussed spaying, it's clear they have the money to do it, so they may just be trying to be polite and keep the waters smooth by saying they keep meaning to get it done. If they meant to get it done, they would.

Not everyone has the same standards of breeding practices that many here do. Many big breeders aren't whelping inside either (although you actually note that they do move her in for whelping), and people recommend them left and right. Many of them breed every heat (twice a year) and they remain on the "good" list. Many don't get their dogs any kind of titles other than CGC and obedience titles. Is that enough? Who is really to decide that?

As long as they are fed, watered, and have shelter, let it go.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That seems an odd breed to be a BYB for so I would maybe talk to them from the point of, that it is a specialized working breed and that lots of times those dogs find their way to shelters. So conversationally asking about their puppy return policy, and printing/showing them this site: ABMC Belgian Malinois Rescue - Rescued Belgian Malinois which, who knows...might get them interested. 

They aren't doing anything wrong, but they aren't doing anything right. That's the stinky part.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Yeah, that's the thing, they're not doing anything outright illegal, and I don't want to start a war with them, as I said. I honestly couldn't care less what they think of _me_, but my Mother is friends with them, and I don't want to stir anything up for her.

I've just never seen the dogs anywhere but in the side yard. The neighbor even admits that neither she nor her husband walks them or does anything with them. I'm not even certain that the bitch is with the new litter right now as when I take Koda and Riley for walks and I pass by the house, I'm pretty certain I can see _two_ dogs barking and running behind the gate, not just the Male, so that means the bitch isn't inside with the puppies right now, and I know they're not 8 weeks yet. Eh, whatever...

Jean - That's the thing, they don't seem to be particular about who they sell their puppies to, and last I heard, they were selling them for $200-$300, somewhere in there. That's not asking much, a lot of people could pay that, and that will attract a lot of people who probably don't know how much work Malinois are. As you said, I wouldn't doubt that a lot of their dogs end up in shelters due to them being sold to people who couldn't handle them.

Like you all have said, I guess there's not much that can be done, nor will I try to test the waters. _I_ personally wouldn't subject my dogs to this, but I suppose other people don't share a similar mindset.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Ahh, everything's getting moved! I didn't know if this qualified for the breeding section as I'm not the one doing the breeding, but I suppose it does! Thank you for moving it to the appropriate section.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You may get more opinions from breeders here though. 

Bitches do not have to stay with their litter 24/7 until the litter is eight weeks. The first few weeks, yes. By week four the bitch can be let out on her own for short periods. The pups begin weaning. By six weeks, the bitch really does not need to be with the pups at all. I like to keep them together, but other breeders like for her to be separated by this point. 

I agree that your mother's neighbors are doing nothing illegal and just because you think that they should do something differently, it would be advice that is not asked for and not wanted and probably not well-received.

If you see their dogs or puppies mistreated, starved, beaten, left without shade or water, than call animal control. If they are not abusing or neglecting them in a way that breaks the law, do not. 

I want to say, that it is not hurting their bitch to have puppies. Even a number of litters. She is not sad or misused because she is having litters. It is perfectly natural, and it is not like a human having three pregnancies in 2 1/2 years. The bitch is only pregnant for 9 weeks, not nine months, and she then has a litter, not a single 7-10 pound baby. There is pain involved in whelping, but it is not the same as childbirth. Most bitches enjoy their litters, not necessarily whelping them, but taking care of them. They enjoy mothering them, they feed and clean them, yes, but they will also play with them. 

While BYBs on the whole make a huge contribution to the unwanted pets in shelters and euthanized this year, this individuals 21 or 42 dogs throughout her bitch's life span or lack thereof is not going to make or break the problem of dogs in shelters.

If this is something that you are very worried about, then volunteer at your local rescue or shelter, particularly any community dog events, there may be a venue their to educate people on what the differences are between good breeders and BYBs and puppy mills, and to encourage people not to breed.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Selzer, thank you for the information. I'm not well versed on the subject of breeding, it just seems to me that her bitch is always pregnant, but if it's not overload, then I suppose it's not as big of an issue as I thought. I'm not going to call Animal Control as it doesn't seem that the dogs or puppies are being mistreated, it just seems like all the dogs are being used for is having litters and making money, I don't think that's right, but I guess there really is nothing that can be or should be done the more that I think about the situation. I guess it just annoys me as this isn't what I envision when I think of responsible breeding practices.

I don't believe the puppies from this litter are 4 weeks yet, so I'm not sure what the status is with the bitch being away from them, but I suppose they have some handle on what they're doing. As you said, if the bitch enjoys her litters, I guess the one bright side to all of this is that she gets to have so many as it seems like it's her only purpose.

Volunteering to educate others (As well as myself) on ethical breeding practices sounds like a good idea, maybe it will cancel out the annoyed feelings I currently have towards my neighbor.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Or frustrate you even more, LOL, but at least you will meet other like minded individuals and work toward a goal. Some of the people you talk to will hear what you have to say and maybe change their mind when thinking about letting their dog have a litter. 

My oldest brother is the worlds worst dog owner. His wife killed their rough collie giving it horse wormer. The smooth collie mix got hit in the road and had a dislocated hip, needed surgery, they never did the surgery, the dog still limps a little. That was maybe five years ago. They never let their dogs inside the house. They can come up on the porch and look inside. In the winter they sleep in the heated garage. 

They do not contain their dogs, not at all. The rough collie (that is no more) was kept on a chain because he was a purebred and they were going to use him for breeding. But the mutts from the pound, Dixie and Maggie, just run around their little five acres, chasing the Amish and the Garbage men, herding their chickens, and whatever else they can think of. 

Both of these dogs are the calmest, sweetest, well-tempered animals I have ever met in my life. Is it because they have plenty of exercise? Is it because they know that they are the dogs and the people are the people and everyone is 100% ok with that? Is it because my brother and sister in law ARE doing some things right by these dogs? 

I really do not know. I can be frustrated, but it is their choice not to have these dogs inside the house. The dogs seem happy, not fat or skinny, and well adjusted, even when there are dozens of people there for a party. 

There are probably things that I do with my dogs that they do not like either. We pretty much keep our thoughts to ourselves.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Haha, after reading what you've said about your brother and sister in law, and some of the things they've done (Or not done) with their dogs, my mouth honestly dropped, but you're right...Unless it's outright neglect, you can't do much.

I haven't said anything to these neighbors. The only thing I've done is let them know about a _free_ spay/neuter clinic that Animal Control does on such-and-such dates, and I've only done that because the Mom has talked about getting the female spayed, though she obviously has no intention of doing so. I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise. It's not like I've walked up to their house, rang the doorbell, and been like, "You need to sterilize your animals right now! You people are irresponsible and shouldn't treat your dogs this way!", you know? Haha. Just one subtle hint, nothing since.

Ahh, well. People have different ideas on how to treat their animals, just as parents have different means of raising their children, I suppose.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Gah...I asked the neighbor if I could see the puppies today. They're out in the "run" (fenced off back yard area) with the bitch and the father. No protection from the elements (It's Arizona, and freaking hot), they're drinking out of a disgusting, dirty kiddie pool for water. There's feces all over the back yard. It's just gross. I thought she brought them inside, she did that for the last litter I saw. She says they're 6 weeks right now and that two of them have died, she didn't get into specifics as to how though. I asked her if she had a whelping box at any point and she said they did, but when the bitch stopped cleaning up after them, she didn't want to deal with them being in the house anymore so she moved them outside.

I don't know, they're not _completely_ neglected, I guess. But no real shade from the sun, the pool they were drinking from was absolutely sick. It just didn't seem right to me. Darn cute puppies, but I'm not going to ask to see them again, It's just going to piss me off more.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No shade, Arizona, poop everywhere, dirty water, I would call animal control. Pups that age should not be running around unsupervised with the sire either. Too many possibilities for problems, though no law.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

yes, I think shade and CLEAN water is a requirement everywhere. scummy water in an old swimming pool doesn't count. I know that FL requires dogs have a place to get in out of the sun, so I'm sure AZ does as well


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

The only thing that could give them any sort of shade was an old truck hitch that was lying around in the run with them, I saw some of the puppies trying to hide out under there, but it didn't provide much. The sire seems gentle enough, but I don't know him. He didn't seem to be aggressive, it's my understanding from talking to the neighbor that the bitch is the one that gets rowdy. I know nothing about breeding though, so if you guys say it's not a good idea to have him back there with the pups, then I believe it.

It was disgusting though. It looked like a weeks worth of poop was back there, the kiddie pool was filled with brown water, they had what looked like pie tins for dishes, but no food in them. I don't know what's going on. Can one anonymously call Animal Control? I really, really don't want to start a war with these guys, I'd prefer they not know it was me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The pie tins do not bother me. My pups eat their food pretty darn fast. 

It is hard on the bitch with young pups to be with another adult. She has to protect her puppies. Not all males want to play with the puppies. It should only be allowed under supervision in my opinion. 

If there is a clear reason for a complaint, then I would make the complaint. I am not for "reporting" anyone. But animals left without shelter, clean water, etc, is something hard to turn a blind eye on. And their having poop lying all around is a health issue.


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