# Uh oh...here come the requests for Mali pups...lol



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

This is kind of a ridiculous test, imo. I think the GSD would have skid-addled if any more pressure was put on him. Interesting, none the less. I love the FB comments of all the people that are just certain THEIR dog would attack. I think most would take the route of the cane corso.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=681957538548002

ETA: The guard dog "tips" to test your dog at the end, are awesome. ;-)


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

lol i watched this today only i did not read the tips, the Mal looked off on a different planet lol in my opinion the one who did the best was Moose, he thought about it first then acted on it, and he did not have any protection training, infact i wonder what the mal would have done with out his handler telling him what to do, to be fair it should be a redo lol, the mal should just be left to its own devices before we can actually judge who did what the best


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

That owner looked more alert than the mal. I'm not sure who's training who


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Not impressed with the malinois. Very weak hit, no fight. Nice pet, though. Not an equal test either, with the owner there telling him what to do and acting suspicious. 

I liked the GSD. What I'd expect from a good GSD with no training.

Cane corso... pffft.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I didn't like any of them....honestly people liked the performance of the GSD?? I didn't take that GSD backing up, as him "Trying to decide." I took it as fear, with a pretty weak, unsure and unconfident grip, that would have been gone had the guy shouted a bunch and really went at him. I wasn't impressed with any of the dogs, but I think people will listen to the news casters and think, "wow, mali performed." I agree all the tests were kind of silly. Not really threatening, or "real" but I don't think the GSD was anything at all to write home about...none of them were.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sure, GSD wasn't anything special, but was better than the mali, in my book. And he had no training. Most intruders won't fight the dog. 

At the tail end of the malinois test the dog took off up the stairs- was he called or was he running out of fear? Not impressive. Weak grip, no defense or fight.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I don't think that was a fair test for the Mal at all. The owner had to know that someone was going to test them that day, hence he wasn't scared or suprised at all. When someone breaks into your house, you aren't going to be calm, tension is in there air, whether displayed or not there is some fear and your dog picks up on that.. not allowing for that kind of scenario doesn't allow for a true reaction. Not only that but the guy came in with a sleeve which the mal knew he should bite from "protection" training, especially being in the early stages. AND was focused on direction from his handler. Without the true fear factor and surprise of the intrusion, it's impossible to test a true reaction. 

To be honest, IMO, the cane corso and GSD reacted as most well behaved dogs probably would. I was disappionted that the GSD owner said "I wished he would have been more aggressive." It's not your dog's job to protect your house from intrusion. It's a nice deterrant and a some may respond but that's not the reality and if they wanted that reaction they should have trained for it. 

Not only that but the guy coming in to "test" isn't going to be exposing the same feelings as one that doesn't know the dog is there, or is trying to get past the dog. This guy came in, not scared at all, expecting him there, and the dogs also probably picked up on that vibe and reacted to the "non-threat". An intruder, who hears the dog but enters is still going ot be weary and nervous, especially because they likely wouldn't come with a sleeve to protect themselves or the knowledge of training dog behavior to begin with.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

It did not seem very fair, the cane corso was a big puppy, the GSD was a shelter wup and the mal was trained and with handler....i wonder how the cane corso will act once he has peeked maturity, the mal when he has no dad to give him direction. Weird situations.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

I thought that an untrained GSD did have it in him to attack was pretty good.

I however think the guy intruder was overly attentive to the dogs. With the GSD he actually waved him back. I'm assuming an intruder wouldn't take that chance. It would have to be a pretty ballsy intruder to keep walking through a house with a dog barking though. 

And I don't have dogs for protection. I'd hope they'd deter a break in with their bark, but that's about it.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

It seems up in the air as to whether their dog will bite an intruder to most dog owners. Some dogs are just very serious and others well, just are not. My guys are not serious dogs, however i can count of them barking which is good enough for me.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I was wondering what others expect their dogs to do if any intruder comes in when owners aren't there. My dogs aren't loose in the house when I'm not home. People know I have dogs, that's usually enough in itself. They don't know how they are kept when I'm not home. I do expect the dogs to do something if I'm HOME and an intruder comes in. That's a totally different scenario, though. I don't think the test on the mal, with handler, was a good one. I wouldn't be holding my dog back if a scary person just walked into the house. The mal didn't seem too confident, I would have been curious to see what would have happened if the handler wasn't holding onto him. Cane corso was only a puppy, kind of unfair to put him in that situation, imo. 

Also would have liked to see the GSD actually bite (he was out of camera range), don't think there was anything threatening about the dog biting as the guy was backing out of the house, he looked like a dog on a toy, no countering, no menacing, no true aggression...from my limited knowledge and what it looks like (still working on reading a dog during bitework/protection). 

To clarify, I don't mean the guy had to be threateningly yelling at the dog, even yelling out in extreme pain, I'm betting would have startled the GSD to stop biting. Decoy doesn't have to be threatening, just startling (in this scenario to be more "real")...which most intruders would be. 

ETA: I'm also guessing, if the guy had turned around and ran out, the GSD would have chased and maybe had more confidence in the bite (prey instead of defense)...maybe even the Cane Corso would have given chase if the guy had turned and run, which a lot of intruders would do if they came up on a dog they didn't know was there.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

I personally don't want my dog to bite, especially when I'm not home. I know he'll bark, and hopefully that will be deterrent enough. If it goes any farther and they actually enter, I will take care of that. But bites mean I get opened up to lawsuits and my dog is opened to the possibility of being seriously hurt if the intruder has some sort of weapon that he fights back with. 

A friend of my parents was sued when the robber jumped their fence and was severely bitten by their GSD. The man was charged with breaking and entering, but his lawsuit went through and my parents' friends had to pay his medical bills and "pain and suffering" as well as deal with vicious dog labeling and threats of confiscation by animal control. It was ridiculous.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Pax8 said:


> I personally don't want my dog to bite, especially when I'm not home. I know he'll bark, and hopefully that will be deterrent enough. If it goes any farther and they actually enter, I will take care of that. But bites mean I get opened up to lawsuits and my dog is opened to the possibility of being seriously hurt if the intruder has some sort of weapon that he fights back with.
> 
> A friend of my parents was sued when the robber jumped their fence and was severely bitten by their GSD. The man was charged with breaking and entering, but his lawsuit went through and my parents' friends had to pay his medical bills and "pain and suffering" as well as deal with vicious dog labeling and threats of confiscation by animal control. It was ridiculous.


So the dog bit him outside after he broke into the house? What state was this?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This is ridiculous. The deterrent is the bark. If someone is stupid enough (or drugged up enough) to enter your house while there is a big dog barking then you had better hope your dog backs off and runs for safety. 

I had a fear aggressive, rescued gsd who acted like Cujo when you came to my door and continued to act that way when you came in the house. I loved him but he was a HUGE liability. I much prefer Rafi who barks and growls but is friendly once people come in the house.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Gib_laut said:


> So the dog bit him outside after he broke into the house? What state was this?


There are many stories like this in CA and other states of the sort. Not leaving it to just dog bites either but even when the intruder hurt himself as he was breaking into the house, sued for the injury on their property and won. Pathetic really.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> There are many stories like this in CA and other states of the sort. Not leaving it to just dog bites either but even when the intruder hurt himself as he was breaking into the house, sued for the injury on their property and won. Pathetic really.


Do you have a link to at least one of these many stories?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I do not. I read them years ago in the paper. I lived in cali at the time and remember the uproar.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Gib_laut said:


> So the dog bit him outside after he broke into the house? What state was this?


It was in Louisiana. The man jumped the fence and broke a window to get into the house when the dog found him in the backyard and bit him on the arm. Fractured the guy's arm, tore a lot of muscle. He bashed the dog over the head enough that it let go, and managed to get himself inside the house. Hung out long enough that they came home, found him, and called the police on him.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Well when someone can verify a story of a burglar commiting a crime and actually winning in court then I'll be a believer. 

I mean of all the robber sues home owner for dog bites stories there has to be at least ONE that's verifiable right?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I think Blanketback knows a few but in Canada. they have really dumb laws about dogs there. 

I don't want my dog biting anyone but I still can't believe in any country a dog will bite during a burglary and it not be justified


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

the mal saw a sleeve and was playing

irl most people are not going to break into a home with a 100 lb gsd barking at them 
or a 130 lb mastiff


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Some one posted that video here some time back. I believe it was those trainers showing the misconception of "guard dogs". Thing that always got me was these guys are trainers and were producing this video stating that your dog would fail to protect your house, they still went in with a sleeve and no owners present except for the Mal.

I agree and they proved their point.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> the mal saw a sleeve and was playing
> 
> irl most people are not going to break into a home with a 100 lb gsd barking at them
> or a 130 lb mastiff


Was that the point of the video? Was the discussion about *if* a person would break in? Or was it about *what* the family dog would *do* if someone actually *broke in*? 


Everyone knows that most burglars won't choose any house with ANY breed of dog (actually small yappy dogs are a huge deterrent because they alert and rarely shut up)....however, thanks for reiterating that...I guess.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> however, thanks for reiterating that


i do not know what the point of the video was because it was so inane

you are welcome


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> This is ridiculous. The deterrent is the bark. If someone is stupid enough (or drugged up enough) to enter your house while there is a big dog barking then you had better hope your dog backs off and runs for safety.
> 
> I had a fear aggressive, rescued gsd who acted like Cujo when you came to my door and continued to act that way when you came in the house. I loved him but he was a HUGE liability. I much prefer Rafi who barks and growls but is friendly once people come in the house.


 
Wrong you want the dog to move forward and engage the threat to give you time to get away or take other action. Anything less speaks to a lack of nerve and would be a washout. 
If I just wanted a noise maker I would stick with the Chihuahuas. Cheaper and easier to keep..lol.


All the dogs in the vid were washouts as far as protection goes, I believe this very vid has been discussed in a previous thread.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

If no one is home and someone broke in, I want my dog to run and lock himself in the bathroom. Nothing in my house is worth injury to my dog. 

Run to the bathroom, lock it, and then pretend to play dead like a good boy.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Wrong you want the dog to move forward and engage the threat to give you time to get away or take other action. Anything less speaks to a lack of nerve and would be a washout.
> If I just wanted a noise maker I would stick with the Chihuahuas. Cheaper and easier to keep..lol.
> 
> 
> All the dogs in the vid were washouts as far as protection goes, I believe this very vid has been discussed in a previous thread.


If you're looking for a protection dog, that's what you want, but I don't want my dog to be a home or personal protection dog. I'd prefer he backed off if the person is determined enough to break into the house after hearing him bark. Yes, it speaks to a lack of nerve, but I would rather he back off than possibly be injured. As someone else said, nothing I have in my house is worth having my dog potentially injured over.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Thats fine, just realize your dog is not backing off because he knows he is more valuable to you then the flat screen. 
He is backing off because he lacks the necessary nerve and aggression to preform a function the breed is supposed to be capable of.

This forum is dedicated to the GSD, which is ideally capable of PP and Guarding functions. Its not called the shelter mutt or the labradoodle forum. These dogs should be capable of these tasks regardless of your personal wants or feelings on the subject. 
This common idea that we should expect the dog to run or back off because its not worth the dog getting hurt is probably one of the reasons the breed is were it is. 

Consistently lowering the bar, one of the reasons most GSDs are capable of being no more then pets. Which begs the question, what is the difference between my GSD and some friendly mutt I can find at the local pound.

Answer: Beyond coat color...NOTHING. 

About as useful as a Lab thats afraid of water.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> If no one is home and someone broke in, I want my dog to run and lock himself in the bathroom. Nothing in my house is worth injury to my dog.
> 
> Run to the bathroom, lock it, and then pretend to play dead like a good boy.


omg I agree for once


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Thats fine, just realize your dog is not backing off because he knows he is more valuable to you then the flat screen.
> He is backing off because he lacks the necessary nerve and aggression to preform a function the breed is supposed to be capable of.
> 
> This forum is dedicated to the GSD, which is ideally capable of PP and Guarding functions. Its not called the shelter mutt or the labradoodle forum. These dogs should be capable of these tasks regardless of your personal wants or feelings on the subject.
> ...


I agree. He doesn't have the nerve to be a protection dog. I accepted that a while ago. And I know he's not backing off because I value him more than my computer. He'll either back off because he's scared, or he'll see it's a person and be super friendly and try to get them to throw the ball. 

It's hard for me to believe that it's a huge common belief that the GSD is expected to back up or run for safety if there's an intruder. On the contrary, I run into possibly hundreds of people who get GSD's expecting their dog to protect them and attack intruders whether they have had protection training or not. I would say it is far more likely that the decline in the working ability of the breed has something more to do with unscrupulous breeders throwing together dogs without regard to the integrity of their bloodline to make a quick buck from the uneducated consumer market. Or dog owners who don't want to put in the work needed to keep a working GSD and create a market for a lower drive, more "manageable" dog like the Shiloh shepherds.

I also agree the German Shepherd should ideally be a breed that is capable of doing protection work should you need that of them, but in the real world it just will not always happen with every pup. Even excellent breeders have pups that wash out of protection. It is not nearly as common, but it does happen. 

Finally, I got a German Shepherd because I wanted a German Shepherd. That's why I didn't get a shelter mutt. Regardless of whether he had the drive or nerve to be a protection dog, he was born and needed a home, so I gave it to him. I still wholly support breeders that strive to produce excellent shepherds capable of doing anything asked of them. Even if my dog didn't turn out that way, doesn't mean I don't believe that the breeders should do their best to work towards that ideal, driven working dog. But I'm also not going to fool myself into thinking that there will ever be a world where every German Shepherd is an ideal example of the breed. 

I love my dogs more than anything, but I don't anthropomorphize. Not any further than as a joke anyways. I realize that Kaiju is not a capable protection dog who is backing off because that's my preference. He is a low-medium drive pet dog who will never be capable of doing any protection. While a great companion, he is not a good technical example of the breed and will never be bred, hence why he is neutered. I feel like you may have read a bit more into my words than necessary. I feel like everyone on the forum would enjoy the breed being the best it can be. A strong, intelligent, versatile worker with solid nerve and a dependable temperament. While that is the goal, not every GSD will fit this. I still support breeding for an ideal worker, but I'm not going to be unrealistic. Besides, I don't think I ever said my dog was capable of protection in any of my previous posts.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Crank is 12 weeks old and would have bit that guy. You need to get a real malinois.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Crank is 12 weeks old and would have bit that guy. You need to get a real malinois.


I keep watching that video and being so disappointed in how halfhearted the Malinois' bite was. It looked like he even sort of let go and then nibbled a couple times before running back. I'm glad I got a chance to go out to a PSA club and see an actual hard-hitting Malinois. It's definitely an experience to see one in real life!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

All were crap. Also not comparable as the mal handler was present. If I were present and commanded it I'm 99.99% sure there'd be a brutal bite and fight ensuing.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Crank is 12 weeks old and would have bit that guy. You need to get a real malinois.


Omg. You named him after meth. Lol.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Thats fine, just realize your dog is not backing off because he knows he is more valuable to you then the flat screen.
> He is backing off because he lacks the necessary nerve and aggression to preform a function the breed is supposed to be capable of.
> 
> This forum is dedicated to the GSD, which is ideally capable of PP and Guarding functions. Its not called the shelter mutt or the labradoodle forum. These dogs should be capable of these tasks regardless of your personal wants or feelings on the subject.
> ...


I agree with a majority of what you have stated here. 

Unfortunately, reality is different. Unless owners are ready to put down those washouts, there will always be "below standard" dogs of all breeds. Then it boils down to peoples opinions of the value of those washouts. To you or alike types of owners, the value is calculated differently than the pet owners calculation of value. It's hand in hand with the reason they want the dog. That's the value. You value a dog along breed standards. Anything less is less valued. Where as a pet owner values that same dog differently. Thus site is full of both types of owners.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If that guy came into my house he would leave (or maybe not) with a few malinois hanging off him.

This type of protective behavior is bred, not trained. When it comes to malinois, the key is control, they know how to bite, bark and hold, and clamp down at 5 weeks. 

My 15 week old female malinois already thinks she's all that and will challenge anyone or thing, confident, sassy little lion. 

So, yeah, most people don't want that in a dog because you need to control this type of behavior, train the dog, socialize the dog, work the dog every day. That's why I laugh when someone says a dog must have been "trained" to be mean... nope, usually they are "bad to the bone" from birth. "Bad" being a subjective term. I like this kind of dog.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Omg. You named him after meth. Lol.


Meth plus the cranking he does on the bite and also the cranking it takes to keep him under control at some point.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Meth plus the cranking he does on the bite and also the cranking it takes to keep him under control at some point.


You better not be cranking on a baby!!! Only treats, hugs, and love!!! Otherwise your bond sucks! ;-)


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Pax8 said:


> I agree. He doesn't have the nerve to be a protection dog. I accepted that a while ago. And I know he's not backing off because I value him more than my computer. He'll either back off because he's scared, or he'll see it's a person and be super friendly and try to get them to throw the ball.
> 
> It's hard for me to believe that it's a huge common belief that the GSD is expected to back up or run for safety if there's an intruder. On the contrary, I run into possibly hundreds of people who get GSD's expecting their dog to protect them and attack intruders whether they have had protection training or not. I would say it is far more likely that the decline in the working ability of the breed has something more to do with unscrupulous breeders throwing together dogs without regard to the integrity of their bloodline to make a quick buck from the uneducated consumer market. Or dog owners who don't want to put in the work needed to keep a working GSD and create a market for a lower drive, more "manageable" dog like the Shiloh shepherds.
> 
> ...


 
My comments were not intended to be personal. Whenever this topic comes up there is always a number of posters that make excuses for the dogs or feel the need to boast about how they protect their dog. My beef is with the celebration of weakness on here that is often couched in altruistic claptrap.

If the dog you own or the dog being discussed on youtube cant live up to an important breed function why make excuses? Why try to pretend that this weakness is really in the best interest of the dog?

The dogs are what they are, keep them, love them or wash them out. Its really up to the individual but lets not kid ourselves. Weakness should never be excused or celebrated. It should be acknowledged and avoided in the future.

I too have had weak dogs, some I kept some I did not. They were what they were, making excuses or justifying their behaviors did not change the reality of what they were. Nor should one take it as a personal slight when their dog is genetically less then what he should be, just be honest.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't know what my dog would do and I don't want to find out. these days dogs won't stop a determined criminal and I'd say someone breaking into your house is determined. I don't want him to get stabbed or shot protecting my phone and $20. 

it's not about the breed and what he's capable of. it's about me not wanting to lose him. also, I don't want him to have a bite record.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> My comments were not intended to be personal. Whenever this topic comes up there is always a number of posters that make excuses for the dogs or feel the need to boast about how they protect their dog. My beef is with the celebration of weakness on here that is often couched in altruistic claptrap.
> 
> If the dog you own or the dog being discussed on youtube cant live up to an important breed function why make excuses? Why try to pretend that this weakness is really in the best interest of the dog?
> 
> ...


Ah, I understand better what you are saying. Yes, I agree with this. While the dogs we have currently will be what they are, it's always important to try to make sure future dogs are always better. Weaknesses should not be excused or passed off in some sort of anthropomorphized reasoning.

I've informed Kaiju's breeders that he has washed out of any chance of protection training - just doesn't have the nerve for it. From what I have heard, most of the others of his litter are capable, but they are still taking into account that he and another sibling do not have the nerve and are using that information to improve their breeding program.

I can get behind this. Just took me a while to understand what you meant.

At least I believe that is what you are talking about correct? That even if I don't want my dog to bite an intruder or protect my home, he should still be capable of it because that nerve is something that should be present in the breed no matter what you use them for?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Pax8 said:


> Ah, I understand better what you are saying. Yes, I agree with this. While the dogs we have currently will be what they are, it's always important to try to make sure future dogs are always better. Weaknesses should not be excused or passed off in some sort of anthropomorphized reasoning.
> 
> I've informed Kaiju's breeders that he has washed out of any chance of protection training - just doesn't have the nerve for it. From what I have heard, most of the others of his litter are capable, but they are still taking into account that he and another sibling do not have the nerve and are using that information to improve their breeding program.
> 
> ...


Correct .


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

Is it possible that the dogs can sense that the person "breaking" into their home was not a threat? I am not making excuses for these dogs, but would the outcome be different if there was a person that was really breaking into the home? Could a dog sense the intentions of a person? 
I do not know the answer, but I know my dog acts way different towards "shady" people than others.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

dpc134 said:


> Is it possible that the dogs can sense that the person "breaking" into their home was not a threat? I am not making excuses for these dogs, but would the outcome be different if there was a person that was really breaking into the home? Could a dog sense the intentions of a person?
> I do not know the answer, but I know my dog acts way different towards "shady" people than others.


Doesn't matter the intention. Why would any dog let a stranger into HIS house? Onto his territory uninvited? 

I used to be the type that always left my door unlocked and let people come and go. No need to use the doorbell. 

When my dog was around 8-9 months old, while I was brushing my teeth I heard him charge from the living room to the front door barking his head off. I thought he probably just saw another dog through the screen door so I continued to brush my teeth. When he didn't stop barking I went to check and my friend was standing there at the front door. She was just standing there frozen holding the screen door open. My dog didn't go outside to engage her and he didn't back up. He just stood there at the edge of the door and barked. I had to make him sit and invite her in. 

When he was around 1 years old, my friend from out of town came over. Same thing. He opened the screen door and tried to walk in. Dog ran up to him and basically did a bark and hold at the door. The guy had dogs of his own and didn't think much of it. He used his body and tried to push his way through the dog. Dog bit him in the stomach. Dog up to this point has never had any "protection" training. Never seen a bite sleeve or suit. I never left my door unlocked again. You now have to ring the doorbell and be let in.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

"Any dog"? 

Some dogs don't have the genetics for protection, period.

Of course it varies from dog to dog but generally dogs like labs, greyhounds, or goldens and others weren't bred for protective instincts. In fact in some cases it was selectively bred out of them as protection or guarding was counter productive to their purpose.

Often hunters share cabins, blinds and such they don't want their retriever protecting the duck blind, they want him focused on the retrieve, for instance.

So the question "why any dog wouldn't protect" is answered because we made them that way.





Gib_laut said:


> Doesn't matter the intention. Why would any dog let a stranger into HIS house? Onto his territory uninvited?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The flip side is: how many of us would have a pet sitter come in, without introducing our dogs to them first? Or, how many of us would agree to pet sit someone's dog, without a proper introduction? I'm not saying that any dog will protect or not - because I have no clue, lol - but I'm always going to err on the side of caution, and expect a dog to have some territorial aggression. IMO, it's a natural behavior, even if they do retreat when challenged - you have to be willing to challenge them. How many people want to do that?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's excercising due caution, which is different from the reality of if push comes to shove what will most dogs do?

The vast majority of average pet pups will bark at most, back away at worst and usually can be won over with high value treats. I recommend "Pupperonis". 

I know a Golden retreiver that doesn't even bark. He'll just roll over for a belly rub! LOL. 




Blanketback said:


> The flip side is: how many of us would have a pet sitter come in, without introducing our dogs to them first? Or, how many of us would agree to pet sit someone's dog, without a proper introduction? I'm not saying that any dog will protect or not - because I have no clue, lol - but I'm always going to err on the side of caution, and expect a dog to have some territorial aggression. IMO, it's a natural behavior, even if they do retreat when challenged - you have to be willing to challenge them. How many people want to do that?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Btw my greyhound I had years ago wouldn't bark either. He would just quietly greet new people with a tail wag. Nice dog but absolutely zero protective or guarding instincts in him.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Gwen, for arguments sake ('cause I know you're good with these, and won't get all pouty, lol) let's say someone is coming into the dog's home. The dog can read the body language, the 'intent' of the intruder. A pet sitter will probably come in with an unassuming attitude. A thief would, after deciding to work around the dog, make an effort to be confrontational. So I'm going to guess that the thief would be more successful at backing the dog away, and that the innocent visitor stands a good chance of being bitten. This is JMO, after seeing how my/family's/friend's dogs react to visitors that are truly frightened of dogs: some dogs let this go to their heads, and they're definitely more brazen around these people.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Actually a local pet sitter had a clients house robbed while the dogs were in her care. She arrived in the morning to find the dogs in the back yard when they were kept in at night. Her first sign something was really wrong. The robbers just let them out back and ransacked the house.

That's not to say a good bit of barking and making a ruckus won't deter a robber but it's because the noise will attract attention of neighbors and other people. A sheriff told me that many years ago, it's the noise the dog makes. I honestly don't think a robber would be scared of being bitten by say, a big fat old lab you know? It's the ruckus, noise and annoyance of having to deal with the dog when they want to get in and out with the items they steal as quickly as possible.




Blanketback said:


> Gwen, for arguments sake ('cause I know you're good with these, and won't get all pouty, lol) let's say someone is coming into the dog's home. The dog can read the body language, the 'intent' of the intruder. A pet sitter will probably come in with an unassuming attitude. A thief would, after deciding to work around the dog, make an effort to be confrontational. So I'm going to guess that the thief would be more successful at backing the dog away, and that the innocent visitor stands a good chance of being bitten. This is JMO, after seeing how my/family's/friend's dogs react to visitors that are truly frightened of dogs: some dogs let this go to their heads, and they're definitely more brazen around these people.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I guess what I am trying to say is that for most dogs the extent of "protection" is barking and some won't even do that and the reason is they aren't bred for it.

RE: response to gib lauts statement why "any dog wouldn't".


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm just thinking that gib laut's account of his pup biting his friend isn't really all that out of the ordinary, in what I think a typical dog would do, in a high percentage of cases. If someone comes in out of the blue, and isn't directly challenging the dog, that person gets told to leave. If someone comes in and makes the dog know a huge ordeal is coming the dog's way (a friend wouldn't act like that, lol) then I'd agree that most dogs are going to choose flight over fight. That's actually how I keep the loose dogs from harming my dog - it's mental warfare and most dogs avoid it.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

No- I've learned from my experience and being around trainers who work protection and bite sport dogs that most dogs won't bite if they can retreat instead. They just don't have that strong of a guarding/protection instinct, they really don't.

That's why we see these "will my dogs protect me" videos where in the vast majority of cases the dogs retreat with just a little bit of pressure. I think one had a Rottweiler in it and the dog totally failed. He barked but that was it.



Blanketback said:


> I'm just thinking that gib laut's account of his pup biting his friend isn't really all that out of the ordinary, in what I think a typical dog would do, in a high percentage of cases. If someone comes in out of the blue, and isn't directly challenging the dog, that person gets told to leave. If someone comes in and makes the dog know a huge ordeal is coming the dog's way (a friend wouldn't act like that, lol) then I'd agree that most dogs are going to choose flight over flight. That's actually how I keep the loose dogs from harming my dog - it's mental warfare and most dogs avoid it.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Too many variables, lol  Which dog would bite first: the dog with the low threshold and weak nerves, I'm going to guess. Or, not the ones being PPD/IPO trained, lol. In other words, my dog might not be able to save my electronics -not stand up to the B&E challenger- but that doesn't mean my neighbor isn't getting jumped on or nipped if he's in my back yard looking for DH's tool box. I think you know what I'm saying.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah I agree there's a lot of variables. One of them is the breed. My greyhound had zero protection in him. 

I also think that because of the liability of a dog that bites most breeds/breeders have really selected for dogs that won't bite humans.

So from a general perspective I feel pretty comfortable saying most dogs won't bite out of a sense of guarding or protection, at all and it's because they've been bred to be that way.

A few years back a young woman was hiking with her lab and was attacked and abducted. She put up a fight as she was trained in martial arts. The lab didn't protect her at all and the kidnapper took the dog too and later let it go. 

She didn't make it, sadly, he murdered her in the end. 




Blanketback said:


> Too many variables, lol  Which dog would bite first: the dog with the low threshold and weak nerves, I'm going to guess. Or, not the ones being PPD/IPO trained, lol. In other words, my dog might not be able to save my electronics -not stand up to the B&E challenger- but that doesn't mean my neighbor isn't getting jumped on or nipped if he's in my back yard looking for DH's tool box. I think you know what I'm saying.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That's such a horrible story, the poor woman  these crimes are getting out of hand!

Maybe I'm differentiating too much. I'm not talking about true protection, but instead about a territorial aggression. One of the perks of a GSD - that the territory belongs to them and they take it seriously. If I wanted a PPD, I'd actively look for one, and not just assume it can be trained in without the character of the dog being taken into consideration. Agreed


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah it was very, very sad. Actually it was when someone found and identified her dog that gave the police an important lead in tracking the man down.. It was too late though.

Yes, that's what I meant about guarding and protecting. 

IMO most dogs won't bite for either purpose. 

I can see it with my crew. Autumn our Aussie will bark but that's it. Smitty will bark but can be easily won over. Ilda is the one with the most natural suspicion and she won't take treats from strangers either. 

Whether even she would bite I don't know. She's been tested up to the point of standing her ground, putting up one heckuva a show at barking, but that's it. So even with her I'm reluctant to say she would bite to protect me or property or territory. I just don't know.



Blanketback said:


> That's such a horrible story, the poor woman  these crimes are getting out of hand!
> 
> Maybe I'm differentiating too much. I'm not talking about true protection, but instead about a territorial aggression. One of the perks of a GSD - that the territory belongs to them and they take it seriously. If I wanted a PPD, I'd actively look for one, and not just assume it can be trained in without the character of the dog being taken into consideration. Agreed


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## DJGinger (Jun 5, 2013)

I think Shepherd is enough for me thanks.. though Mal look deliciously less fuzzy Heh. 
I fear as this Shepherd girlie matures the answer is not to "if she will bite" but "if she can be called off" without training....
I am actually busy suppressing these urges while trying not to affect the confidence.
She doesn't approach immediately but she does not back up. Some smart arse was cutting between yards last month and when Mellie stopped 20 feet away to woofle; made a rawr-arm up- stomp. Not good idea. She went low, almost creeping or stalking but fast; right at him. I wish I could have taken pics, she was standing tall with feet placed like a sprinter at the blocks, tail flagged.
Had she decided "meh" to recall that moment (which we were _just_ out doing ..thank goodness she knew I had treats)? Or had I been all the way in kitchen? It might have been ugly. My son is non verbal, he couldn't recall without visual. She didn't bark again, she just snarled like an asthmatic evinrude and said "rawr" back.

I made a post some time ago about her machissimo attitude at young age. She is still fearless. More fearless. She only "backs" from family.. and it is pouty reluctant obedience.

She is not particularly aggressive. Squirrels, cats, loose dogs. Catch her baleful gaze, but get no action (she does hate birds... probably because they can come thru top and side fencing to steal her food. Also didn't like snake she killed and totally wants piece'o possums) She is food aggression free, though that needed some training when it first came up at 6 months. Went from begging to aloof about strangers. Makes exception for young children.

Melasa is not coming up as predicted. Much higher drive. More than my show Brittany's without the high strung sensitive streak they had. She is likely showing her grandmum's patrol lines. Daddy dog has a few whelps in service work, but the breeder primarily has about 20 of her dogs placed in law enforcement locally when there are many competing protection dog schools and breeders seeming around. I could place Melli back with the breeder but she is really is a good dog.. just maybe not the one to pass the academy test week for being a full service dog.
Plus my son's condition is all about trust and continuity. Melasa is part of his world. Another dog can be incorporated but removal .. it was rough enough when the original service dogs were poisoned. Specially his therapy dog of 4 years. We only had Sara 5 months. I do need to train her not to take food from anyone that is not family. I haven't taught a dog that in years and she is a breed with unfamiliar ways. My son has permanent preference to dark dogs especially black and tan. Melasa outgrew those markings but had them long enough to be accepted. My fiance loves her and she kisses his feet when he visits from Poland. *sigh* She stays even if flunked.

She still needs tons of training and has bad habits of youth (bitey grabby mouth, occasional jump ups), but is particularly protective of him. Is not moved by loud noises, sudden movements or threat. Since I use target training with clicker, she doesn't fear sticks either. She used to cower with men but outgrew that. 
I know I will have to find some job for her with that energy and drive if she washes out. Maybe competitive work of some sort.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I made a facebook comment on that. How often do intruders come into your house with a full camera crew? The whole set up is unusual for the dogs to start with. I don't know if my pup would bite an intruder but since he loves bite work in IPO, I think he'd go after a bad guy in a sleeve just for the fun of it. 

Now how many intruders would break in wearing a bite sleeve? hmmmm


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If you want a PPD / estate protection that does it naturally from day one I would look at this type of dog.. No one is abducting anyone with this guy on the loose. First time doing protection at 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgdZZx7SSgU&list=UU9IcHQsOCA3BAqmUdJhTpRA


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