# OK< time to have an honest discussion about correcting the "landsharking"



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

*OK< time to have an honest discussion about correcting the "landsharking"*

I recently had an exchange with a member regarding the land shark phase. 

Here it is, in case you missed it:


MadLab said:


> I can't believe that a load of Gsd owners will say this behavior is ok and normal.





Sunflowers said:


> I can't believe that someone who does not have a GSD comes on here and questions the experience of the "load of" us who do.





MadLab said:


> Sorry i just life with, bullmastiff mix, lab mix, 2 *terrier mix and gsd/malamute mix. And i walk and mind dogs for friends. What would i know about pack structure and discipline and obedience.
> 
> I know trainers/breeders who train for schutzhund with purely german working lines. I have also taken some courses with them and have been seriously researching the subject for the last 2 years. I know the good dogs should have this drive but i also know the seriousness it takes to train them properly. So many accept this biting and dominance from puppies. It's a disgrace. Can you picture the place a true GSD comes from and the upbringing they got. They were not biting there masters children. These people must have had a great knowledge to produce these great dogs but people buy them today without any real knowledge of dog behavior. My trainer used to joke about my friend with his gsd cross. He said he was 'like a learner driver driving a Porche'. I think there are a few amateurs here with pro dogs sorry Sunflower.



I am going to ask the "trainers/breeders who train for schutzhund with purely German working lines" who are here to please chime in. 

I am also going to ask people who are here and have had GSDs all their lives, and are experienced with the breed, to please give an opinion. 

Should you correct an 11 week old with methods such as the lip grip, slamming and scruffing, using a choke chain, beating, etc?

I have read Koehler. I am aware of the methods he used in the 1960s, where he advocated using a length of washer hose with a wooden dowel in it to strike a dog on the muzzle to correct some biting behaviors, or giving him "a real whaling" to stop barking.

Is this what we still need to be doing? Is this what the "pros" who laugh at us "amateurs" are doing? 
What advice can you give on controlling puppy biting to the "amateurs here with pro dogs?"


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

In the past 10 years I have had about 40 dogs living with me for various lengths of time, of various temperaments, and breeds. Also ages - including dogs who came without bite inhibition as older dogs, which is not so much fun as it sounds.  One was a 9 year old GSD who liked to snappa-snappa at my face when excited or agitated. Hello! I never knew how good my reflexes were as when she first got here. 

Anyway, I use the concepts of bite inhibition. I will use one dog as a main example: I have a dog who was a 3-4 month old puppy biting with intent and drawing blood on children in her first foster home. Not only did she like to bite, she liked to bite hard. It was so important for her to learn the concept of inhibiting the bite, not just stopping it - because if, heaven forbid, someday she didn't stop her bite, it needed to be a bite that was not a level 4 or 5. Realistically, this needs to be the case for all of our dogs, but with most dogs we are not confronted with the reality of the situation. 

Compounding this problem of her interest in biting was the fact that she was a likely Chow mix. Chows are much more cat-like than our GSDs, and as such, really aren't going to respond to corrections. I am going to say that a Chow mixed with herding breed (Terv? GSD? not sure what she is) who wants to bite is probably going to be a bit more of a pip about it than a GSD, though perhaps not as energetically bitey! And in all honesty, this was to my dog's advantage, because it forced me to respond to her in a way that is much more productive - using the methods such as here: Peaceable Paws

I use inhibition work on all pups and fosters. I use a replacement behavior with them that works. I have had a GSD puppy largely raised by humans who came with little inhibition of bite at all who turned out to be a loveable silly who stopped using his mouth as hands and just used good behaviors to get attention - he really was a nice puppy despite a mom that was not right. 

Now I will say I totally cheat. My dogs teach it mostly and I just reinforce what they do. They will get up and walk away, give a warning noise, etc, but when I am forced  to do my job, I don't grab lips, shove fingers, etc, because then with most puppies it is game on! It's either going to be fun and an exciting new challenge, or a terrifying person (another one!) who is trying to kill me, and neither thing is something that a typical pet dog owner wants. 

I am sure if I were training for Schutzhund, I would do differently! But I am trying to provide safe, balanced, happy dogs who are used to structure and consequences, to other homes, or keep the dogs that I have out of trouble. Non-physical methods can provide that. 

I know this is long, and I used a non PB GSD as an example but I think the time and effort that has been put into all of the dogs here has to count for something. 

ETA - that Chow mix is one of my best puppy raisers too - she is awesome at teaching them bite inhibition, and a very good sport for holiday pics!


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

OMG, that is one of the cutest dogs I've ever seen.

Thank you so much. So this is what you recommend:

The Four R’s of Teaching Puppy Bite Inhibition

1.Remove: 
When your puppy bites hard enough to cause you pain, say “Ouch” in a calm voice, gently remove your body part from his mouth, and take your attention away from him for two to five seconds. You’re using negative punishment – just like the pup’s mom and littermates. If he continues to jump and grab at you when you remove your attention, put yourself on the other side of a baby gate or exercise pen. When he is calm, re-engage with him.

2.Repeat: 
Puppies (and adult dogs, and humans) learn through repetition. It will take time – and many repetitions of Step #1 above, for your pup to learn to voluntarily control the pressure of his bite. Puppies do have a very strong need to bite and chew, so at first you’ll “Ouch and Remove” only if he bites down hard enough to hurt you. Softer bites are acceptable – for now. If you try to stop all puppy biting at once, both of you will become frustrated. This is a shaping process (See “The Shape of Things to Come”, March 2006). You are just looking for a small decrease in the pressure of his teeth at first. When he is voluntarily inhibiting his bite a little – enough that it’s not hurting you, you can then start doing your “Ouch and Remove” for slightly softer bites, until you have eventually shaped him not to bite at all. By the time he’s eight months old he should have learned not to put his mouth on humans, unless you decide to teach him to mouth gently on cue.

3.Reinforce: 
Like all dogs (and humans), your pup wants good stuff to stick around. When he discovers that biting hard makes you (good stuff) go away, he will decrease the pressure of his bite, and eventually stop biting hard. This works especially well if you remember to reinforce him with your attention when he bites less hard. It works even better if you use a reward marker when he’s using appropriate mouth pressure. Given that my hands are probably full of puppy at that particular moment, I’d use a verbal marker followed by praise to let him know he’s doing well. “Yes!” makes the soft-mouth moment, followed by “Good puppy!” praise to let him know he’s wonderful.

4.Redirect: 
You probably are well aware that there are times when your pup is calmer and softer, and times when he’s more aroused and more likely to bite hard. It’s always a good idea to have soft toys handy to occupy your pup’s teeth when he’s in a persistent biting mood. If you know even before he makes contact with you that he’s in high-energy hard-bite mode arm yourself with a few soft toys and offer them before your hand is puppy-punctured. If he’s already made contact, or you’re working on repetitions of Step #1, reinforce appropriate softer bites occasionally with a favorite squeaky toy play moment. If there are children in the home with a mouthy puppy, it’s imperative that you arm them with soft toys and have toys easily available in every room of the house, so they can protect themselves by redirecting puppy teeth rather than running away and screaming – a game that most bitey pups find highly reinforcing.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes - and my dogs do it too. I am lucky, again, to have them, and no little running bite sleeves (kids). I use the phrase kissy-kiss and praise when they lick instead of bite, or touch works too (because I realized some of my dogs and fosters were annoying with the kisses). My (now) sweet Ilsa I have caught "aggressively" licking another dog. Ha! But I cannot say enough that it is easier for me due to repetition (getting new dogs more frequently than the average puppy or dog owner should), and because of my dogs. Plus, working with kids for over half my career - I had to control them without pinching their lips, or grabbing them by the neck  so it is a more natural thing for me to modify behavior this way. 

I also do a lot of stuff to give them things to do with their teeth - toys, tugs, and bones. I give them a Premier Busy Buddy like the squirrel so they have to get some of their meals out by working their jaws. And I freeze a lot of pumpkin or other soft stuff - like you do for teething babies except our dogs would chew through a frozen teething ring! 

And between me and the dogs, they exercise quite a bit (while being careful not to over-tire them to that point of manic stimulation - which I still sometimes do anyway by mistake) and need down time to rest, and if they aren't old enough to go out because of shots, I do a lot of weird surfaces, noises, etc, in a fun way, to keep their minds moving and that is tiring too. Add a clicker and the puppies are probably glad when I leave them alone!

I will also say that I met a Duck Tolling Retriever puppy and she was adorable. I was playing with her and kept, I don't know, waiting for her to mouth or bite me? And when she wouldn't, I was like, huh, is she broken or something? Even though I knew in my logic brain that she should be like that, a little part of me thought she wasn't quite as much fun as she should have been. Yikes!


----------



## KenziBHolden (Feb 7, 2013)

I don't think his 2 years of doing research is up to date. I am not a professional but I consider myself educated. I think if canines wanted to dominate the human race the world would be ran by malinois. I don't believe all breeds are meant for all people but I think there is new research out there and smarter ways of doing things then dominating your dog. 
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid


----------



## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i have had numerous foster puppies and raised 3 dogs from pups to adults.. each one went thru a landshark stage (usually at teething time for some ,others were just taken to young from parents or just really drivey pups)

i used the method of having toys/tugs all over the place and using them to help with the biting stage and doing more advanced obedience to tire their little brains,plus my adult dogs helped out and corrected the really devilish ones lol... i never ever even thought of choke chains or hard corrections for biting puppies.. some pups are more mouthier then others.. all it takes is patience and a ton of tug toys and stuffed toys to redirect the little needle teeth and put that energy elsewhere.. i never considered biting mouthy pups to be "dominent" either..


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

From the article:

_"The original description of the basic difference between dominance and submission in dogs comes from Konrad Lorenz in his book, "King Solomon's Ring," (1949). Lorenz, who was a Nobel Prize winning ethologist and animal behaviorist, based this idea on observations of his own dogs. If one dog appeared to be more aggressive and powerful (dominant) the other dog would acknowledge this by giving ground or rolling on its back (submission). Lorenz felt that humans also had dominance relationships with dogs, since if he struck or threatened one of his dogs they acted similarly submissively toward him.

The thinking of scientists usually reflects the culture and the beliefs of the historical era and the place that they live in. Lorenz was born in Austria in 1903. His thinking about dogs was doubtless influenced by the dog training procedures common at that time, most of which had been developed by the German military for teaching service dogs. The methods used to train dogs reflected the attitudes of the military at the time and were based upon strict discipline supported by force if necessary. Certain tools that were developed for training reflect this attitude, such as a leash that was braided and made rigid at the loop end so that it could be turned around and used as a whip if the dog failed to obey.

Colonel Konrad Most summarized that Germanic philosophy of training when he wrote, "In the absence of compulsion neither human education nor canine training is feasible. Even the most soft hearted dog-owner cannot get on terms with his idolized favorite without some form of compulsion." In other words, one should use force to establish dominance and then use that dominance to control the animal's behavior."_

---------------------

But what I want to know from those experts who still employ these, or similar methods today is what exactly one needs to do with an 11 week old puppy when he bites.

Generalities don't help.
Telling people to use compulsion isn't very useful, if one doesn't know exactly what that means.
And Kenzi, I know you don't use punishment, I just need to know from those who do.


----------



## KenziBHolden (Feb 7, 2013)

Sorry I misunderstood! I didn't think you did!


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

We have a working line girl and raised her imprinting her for Schutzhund as we knew that's what we wanted to do with her and have done some but wont be able to fully do it until we move. With that being said our breeder trains and competes in Schutzhund and so do other people who buy her puppies and she (and them) are what got me through this crazy land shark phase because my oh my was this little fuzz ball relentless in her desire for flesh. Of course things like keeping them worn out go without saying. Things that tend to be common practice and we definitely used (and still use with foster monsters) try the yipe to signify what litter mates do when the pup is too rough, end playtime and walk away, BIG ONE is too always always always redirect. Redirect those little flesh cutters to a toy they should be chewing on and play with it so its not boring and praise while teeth are on you and not you. As a last resort a CALM scruff with a firm no can be used but it can not be angry or shake the pup. If you have a driven pup the odds are the scruff will just make it want to play even harder. Some of these may work with some pups some or all may not work with some pups. If you have a particularly driven mouthy little critter like my girl was you just have to be very consistent with the redirect and let them grow up some. Lots of stuff for them to chew on of course and outlets for their energy and remember they get particularly rebellious when tired and need more sleep as pups then most people realized so sometimes forced naps are required. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

KenziBHolden said:


> Sorry I misunderstood! I didn't think you did!


No, you did not misunderstand.
The article you posted was extremely useful, because it illustrated the way the original breeders of a GSD disciplined a dog. 
What you say is that we can use different methods. So do I, on a very young puppy. 

I do believe that, when the dog is older and understands some things, not to mention has better impulse control, then, yes, a yank on a prong might be necessary and useful. 

But what do about the land shark phase, when you are trying to establish trust and build confidence in a pup?

The fact that Madlab came on here and expressed disapproval to those of us who redirect and wait until the dog is older, plus said we are ridiculed in private by trainers, made me ask the question.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think it's fair to say that there's more than one way to train a puppy. Not to say that I agree with another's method - but to accept the fact that my way isn't the only way. And it's probably a good thing too, because I encourage my puppies to mouth me. IMO, this helps to build our bond and also teaches a soft bite. Am I right? Who knows, but it works for me and my dogs so we're happy. I taught DH to redirect, since he disagrees with my philosophy. My puppy, my rules, lol.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I've only been "in" dogs for the last 4 years, I'm young.. 

That said, I've raised a handful of dogs, fostered almost 20, worked in 4 dog shelters, worked at a dog park, dog sat, boarded and trained, and now I work for a professional training company, so it's just my quick .02

I've never needed to hit or correct a puppy to get it to stop biting me. It's completely unacceptable, but I'm telling them what to do instead. I have a very dominant and socially "aggressive" pit bull puppy currently who was very close to being euthanized at my suggestion for his lack of bite inhibition and disregard of people. 

Well, I've never hit him, he's come a long way in the 7 weeks I've had him, and he is now a fantastic candidate for adoption. 

And guess what? I didn't ruin his drive or crush him in the process.


----------



## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

The 4 Rs is brilliant. I will be borrowing from now on.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

We redirected the biting. Sometimes he really wanted to bite us though and it hurt. When the redirecting didn't work we did out out thumb with gentle pressure inside his mouth on the bottom jaw and said "no bite". He finally got it. He will still soft mouth us, but it does not hurt and I look at it as playing. He only does it when he's playing.

I don't spank or hit my dogs. I don't think it's needed in training.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

First of all you never need to hurt a dog. (I have a friend whose Collie was raised with the Koehler method. She is obedient to avoid punishment and afraid to make a mistake). 
I wonder if the land sharks have had enough contact with siblings and parents before they were adopted out. WD came from a litter of two so maybe that was not enough education on bite inhibition. He was bad for about a month but it took a lot of distraction, chew toys, exercise, leash work and once in a while when he caught me off guard I held him by his neck but never shaking or putting him on his back; just to stop him. I have raised and trained many dogs successfully ; my own, fosters, clients' but WD was the first land shark.The forum helped me realize that many GSD puppies are like this; I didn't know this. If you were to see WD now, you couldn't imagine him like this set of teeth on four legs. They do outgrow it but it took a lot of work and sometimes, I have to admit, I wondered if I chose the right dog. But hey......I did!!!


----------



## Swifty (May 11, 2013)

I got my GSD at 5 weeks and was anticipating a rough teething, but now she's 6 months old and I feel like I missed something. She worst she did was some chewing on the metal doorstops, but never put teeth to the chairs or tables. She does latch onto clothes when we're running around, though.


----------



## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Swifty said:


> I got my GSD at 5 weeks and was anticipating a rough teething, but now she's 6 months old and I feel like I missed something. She worst she did was some chewing on the metal doorstops, but never put teeth to the chairs or tables. She does latch onto clothes when we're running around, though.


 Riley never chewed up anything in the house when I'm home. When I go to work he has chewed up a remote control and he always has my shoes out, but no bite marks in them. (he is either upset I left or my husband just doesn't watch him well.) When he was a puppy he mostly played with his teeth with us. We were all marked up until he learned not to bite us.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I compete in multiple bite sports. I didn't realize it until this thread but I guess I have been doing the "4 R's". That being said, I have found the only affective way(for me at least) is just suffering through it. Nothing I have tried can I say worked 100%. I have found they just need to grow out of it. It's funny how around the 7 or 8 month mark it just stops. With my last puppy I tried everything I could think of including physical correction. Guess what? Didn't work. So like I said 4 R's and wait it out.


----------



## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

This 4 R's thing sounds like what my soon to be trainer said to use. I told her we were starting the bite inhibition and she said she doesn't believe in that. There is too much danger and chance for something to go wrong when in a different situation. Everything she said made sense so for now the "no bite" route is the way we are going. Thank you for posting the 4 R's. It's working for right now. All I have to do is say "uh - uh" in my mom voice and she starts licking.


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

First of all, the ancestors of modern GSD were the herding dogs whose characteristics GSD carries up to this very day. Herding dogs... Would a dog, with a nice forbearing character, bite young lamb's buttocks? Or, you probably, think, that sheep are scared of the predator naturally? They are not, and that is their trouble (with a real predator).
GSDs would never be put in a group of "companion dogs" because ALL OF THEM have agression inbuilt, I don't want here to count a few inoffensive individuals you may come across even among ASTs. All attempts to breed out "agressive gene" lead to GSD degradation, loss of their superior to other breeds intellect. Somehow it runs together - their agressiveness and intelligence, you cannot remove one without removing the other. Their intellect - but that is exactly what we love them for! If someone bought a GSD puppy for the looks and good reputation of the breed - that person might bought a time bomb which might explode in a year time.
Highly trainable, the GSD is a "plasticine dog", you can make anything out of him with the right training. If we respect our dogs, they will respect us. If we are nice to them - they will be nice to us. To be moderately agressive and to be conducted by reason is typical of a true GSD. I met many overagressive GSDs, and all them were owned by agressive men, bossy and pushy women (though those expressed themselves in fair syllables!), so, maybe there is not the "plasticine dog" matters but the sculptor?


----------



## SleepsWithFishes (Sep 15, 2014)

Thanks so much for the great information on the 4 R's. My 4 month old pup goes into balls out shark mode about once a day (and yes, I'm thankful it's just once!). 

These methods work great for when he's biting on me, but not so much when he's snagging my shoes and clothing as I walk by.


----------



## Baddogkuzz (Mar 29, 2015)

This is a excellence thread and has been very helpful when dealing with my "Landshark".Maximus is only 4 mths old and we have had him for 3 weeks now and he has adjusted well other than the landsharking. Now he only pulls it with 6 yr old daughter. But we have been working on the 4R's and few other things. No I do not hit him but sometimes I will put my hand around his mouth and say "No" then I release and if he is still landsharking play time is over and we go in the house or he goes outside. If I stand over my daughter he won't even try it. He is getting better about it but I have a hard time him getting tired out. This puppy is just wearing me out !!


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

1.Remove: 
When your puppy bites hard enough to cause you pain, say “Ouch” in a calm voice, gently remove your body part from his mouth, and take your attention away from him for two to five seconds. You’re using negative punishment – just like the pup’s mom and littermates. If he continues to jump and grab at you when you remove your attention, put yourself on the other side of a baby gate or exercise pen. When he is calm, re-engage with him.


This is great stuff....who comes up with this ??? " say “Ouch” in a calm voice, gently remove your body part from his mouth,"....too funny...


SuperG


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

my pup gets the zoomies and runs at me full bore with his mouth open...the only thing l can do while l'm laughing is hold him back by his neck far from my body so his jaw can't connect. Then he gets quite sweet and loving. Another thing to do is get out the camera, what pup doesn't want to ham it up ?

Because l have other dogs, he isn't as snarky as some pups. And now, at 17 weeks that phase has seemed to have waned.
Enjoy every stage, they don't last nearly long enough.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

When berlin was young, up until 5 or 6 months or so, he was BAD about biting legs. I still have scars from it, and every pair of pants from that "era" are filled with holes.

At that time we didn't know if we would just be doing ipo with him or if we would do mondioring, so we didn't want to correct for leg bites. Just totally ignored it and tried to remove myself from his presence. However it got so bad (and so painful ) I did have to start correcting for it. A firm "no", removing him from my leg, and either redirecting onto a toy or tug, or kenneling him


----------



## OkieDog (Mar 15, 2015)

I have had many dogs over the span of my life. All were gotten at the puppy stage and none ever had problems with biting except my recent GSD puppy. It was quite a shock to be bitten over and over by Finn. My arms have scars from puncture wounds, my legs have bruises from hard bites and all of my pants have holes in them below the knees. We were doing pretty good on the bite inhibition for a while. He loves his frisbee and when I took the frisbee, said no bite! and held it with my back turned, he behaved. A week ago, my trainer introduced the Gentle Lead on Finn, who went into a frenzy of rejection. Ever since that one incident, his biting is with intent and hard. We've taken ten steps back in our bite inhibition. 

Our yard is big and when we play frisbee, flirt pole, or ball, we have lots of room. Which becomes a problem for me to remove myself when he bites. I have a long way back to the house with him biting me at the same time. (My winter clothes are in shreds, new wardrobe next year!) Last night, we played very well for a while, then his behavior became more aggressive and he was biting with intent. I used to take him in the car with me when I picked my grandson up from school, but now he bites with intent in the car. If I say No Bite! and draw back, he goes at me harder! 

What am I doing wrong? Please help!


----------



## OkieDog (Mar 15, 2015)

One more thing...He is a lover of attention, of course. When we're in the car waiting on my grandson, he will put his paw on my shoulder to get hugs. He loves hugs and kisses me. I took a bully stick in the car yesterday, and he chewed on that a while, but then wanted to do that bite thing. I just said No Bite! and gave him the stick. That helped a little but he tried one more time without success.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I will also say that I met a Duck Tolling Retriever puppy and she was adorable. I was playing with her and kept, I don't know, waiting for her to mouth or bite me? And when she wouldn't, I was like, huh, is she broken or something? Even though I knew in my logic brain that she should be like that, a little part of me thought she wasn't quite as much fun as she should have been. Yikes!


I had to lol at this because I know exactly what you mean. I've always had bitey mostly GSD or mixed pups. When I got Ivan (lab/border collie maybe some pit mix)I kept thinking he was broken. He didn't bite, he didn't want to play hard. He is the laziest dog I have ever met and the easiest puppy I've ever had. That being said he licks. Other dogs mouth, he has to lick. It drives me insane. I have tried a firm no and redirecting but he always manages to get a sneak lick or two in. He is three now and I have never been able to break that habit. :help:


----------



## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I don't have that kind of experience, but I can tell you that when Ky went after me the first time all mouth and teeth, and chomped on my arm, my immediate reaction was a swift smack on the nose and a really loud HEY ... (I've had dogs before but none that ever came flying at me like that! LOL ... honestly, she looked possessed!)

Well, that backfired and FAST ... she then went right after my hand, and with intent (to what I'm not sure, but man oh man, did she come after me!!!)

About 10 minutes later I was on the phone with a friend of mine who's had GSDs for years and she told me about the 4 Rs and stuffed toys. 

It was still a trial - especially when you're not used to it - but the 4 Rs worked, and she went through a ton of stuffies!


----------



## milaneechan (Dec 29, 2015)

I am having a hard time with my little landshark. He bites at us while we're walking in the house, and has broken skin a couple of times. I have tried the "ouch" and ignore. I have tried replacing something to bite. I feel like I have tried everything. Now he gets to a point where I tell him to stop biting, he flips out, growls and barks at me, then bites himself. We give him plenty of toys and things to chew and play with. 

I know he is young, but I really want to nip this thing in the butt, so he stops nipping at mine. Especially when my young nieces and nephew come over, he really can't nip and bite them. 

:help:


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I know this one guy really well that just bit them back on the top of the muzzle..... hand pressure to the flews against the upper teeth is a similar suggestion as well.


SuperG


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I know this one guy really well that just bit them back on the top of the muzzle..... hand pressure to the flews against the upper teeth is a similar suggestion as well.
> 
> 
> SuperG


I've used the hand pressure with a "No" on all of mine and it didn't take more than 2 or 3 times to get the point across. Also though, during this training time, you have to be sure you don't send any mixed signals about allowing play biting. Toys or tug replace the hand to bite during play.


----------



## maverick_sablegsd (Dec 23, 2015)

SuperG said:


> I know this one guy really well that just bit them back on the top of the muzzle..... hand pressure to the flews against the upper teeth is a similar suggestion as well.
> 
> 
> SuperG


 Can you please define "hand pressure"? I am getting my first GSD pup and this issue is one I would like to be as educated on as much as possible. I have read that "swatting" the nose or any part of a GSD puppy is not a good idea. I am trying to read every where the best kind of correction for such strong dogs and "landsharks".


----------



## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> I recently had an exchange with a member regarding the land shark phase.
> 
> Here it is, in case you missed it:
> 
> ...


Hello All! In my life I have had GSDs, as well as a Great Dane, Boxers, an English Bulldog, French Bulldogs, and several toy breeds. Would someone please define "landshark" for those us us who may not have heard that term before? If it refers to the challenges of the first year or two with a pup, yeah I got it! Thanks!  BTW, I enjoy this forum very much!


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> Also though, during this training time, you have to be sure you don't send any mixed signals about allowing play biting. Toys or tug replace the hand to bite during play.



Never had that problem as my pups were encouraged to latch onto my forearm ( clothed ) during play....when it got too nippy, I'd make the correction in a different fashion. All 3 of the GSD pups I had/have left numerous marks on my right forearm but it was part of the process teaching bite inhibition. Unsolicited biting from a young pup is a completely different mindset on behalf of the dog and I treated it as such. Play biting and my threshold of pain during play biting ( mouthing) was a different story..... If by accident and most always mine, the dog catches me a bit too "firmly"...they instantly acknowledge the mistake because of the process previously learned. A dog obviously needs to learn the difference between latching on to a tug versus my arm or any other body part. I don't know that I ever viewed a tug/toy/ball etc. as a replacement for my hand.

I'll bet there are many dog owners whose dogs exhibit the understanding that human flesh is more sensitive than their own. Example: dog becomes rather skilled at grabbing loose clothing such as a sleeve or pant leg and applies much more bite pressure compared to the times where one's arm is part of the mouthful the dog has hold of. 

No doubt it's a process teaching a pup bite inhibition and I'm certain there are numerous ways to teach them to understand what's acceptable. Main point is teaching the pup what is allowable........


SuperG


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

SuperG said:


> I'll bet there are many dog owners whose dogs exhibit the understanding that human flesh is more sensitive than their own. Example: dog becomes rather skilled at grabbing loose clothing such as a sleeve or pant leg and applies much more bite pressure compared to the times where one's arm is part of the mouthful the dog has hold of.
> 
> 
> SuperG


 I agree. When rosko was about 11-12 weeks old we were playing pretty hard as we always do. Wrestling, tug, slap face kind of all combined. We'll anyway this one day he happened to get a pretty good grip on my left arm. I didn't realize it but he drew blood. It wasn't until he suddenly stopped (I mean he froze) and just stared for a good solid 45 seconds at my arm where he had just bit. I just sat there Watching quietly because, we'll I wanted to see exactly how he was going to React. Anyway after staring at the blood he leaned in sniffed it for a few seconds then went over to his bed and laid down like he was expecting to be in trouble. Even when I called him back he just laid there looking all worried. Ever since that day he has had nothing but soft bites while playing. I was kind of impressed that with no reaction from me that he just knew it was bad.


----------



## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

maxtmill said:


> Hello All! In my life I have had GSDs, as well as a Great Dane, Boxers, an English Bulldog, French Bulldogs, and several toy breeds. Would someone please define "landshark" for those us us who may not have heard that term before? If it refers to the challenges of the first year or two with a pup, yeah I got it! Thanks!  BTW, I enjoy this forum very much!


Ok! Now I've got it - landsharking is all about biting! Neither of my GSDs had an issue with biting people, just doing the usual destruction of things when they were pups.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Never had that problem as my pups were encouraged to latch onto my forearm ( clothed ) during play....when it got too nippy, I'd make the correction in a different fashion. All 3 of the GSD pups I had/have left numerous marks on my right forearm but it was part of the process teaching bite inhibition. Unsolicited biting from a young pup is a completely different mindset on behalf of the dog and I treated it as such. Play biting and my threshold of pain during play biting ( mouthing) was a different story..... If by accident and most always mine, the dog catches me a bit too "firmly"...they instantly acknowledge the mistake because of the process previously learned. A dog obviously needs to learn the difference between latching on to a tug versus my arm or any other body part. I don't know that I ever viewed a tug/toy/ball etc. as a replacement for my hand.
> 
> I'll bet there are many dog owners whose dogs exhibit the understanding that human flesh is more sensitive than their own. Example: dog becomes rather skilled at grabbing loose clothing such as a sleeve or pant leg and applies much more bite pressure compared to the times where one's arm is part of the mouthful the dog has hold of.
> 
> ...


I just always found it easier to suspend play bites to the hand for the 7-10 days they were being taught what "no bite" my body means. Then we resumed and the bite inhibition was there...... I can only attribute that to what they learn that the gentle squeeze to the lips/upper teeth and "No" convey. 1 - NO 2 - because see how it kinda hurts, those teeth of yours....


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> I just always found it easier to suspend play bites to the hand for the 7-10 days they were being taught what "no bite" my body means. Then we resumed and the bite inhibition was there...... I can only attribute that to what they learn that the gentle squeeze to the lips/upper teeth and "No" convey. 1 - NO 2 - because see how it kinda hurts, those teeth of yours....



Whatever process gets the job done without ruining the pup makes sense to me. 


SuperG


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

maxtmill said:


> Ok! Now I've got it - landsharking is all about biting! Neither of my GSDs had an issue with biting people, just doing the usual destruction of things when they were pups.


I'm curious....how did you deal with your GSDs when they were pups and tested their needle-like puppy teeth on your hands, arms, ankles etc?

SuperG


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

maverick_sablegsd said:


> Can you please define "hand pressure"? I am getting my first GSD pup and this issue is one I would like to be as educated on as much as possible. I have read that "swatting" the nose or any part of a GSD puppy is not a good idea. I am trying to read every where the best kind of correction for such strong dogs and "landsharks".


I think SG missed your question, but its basically squeezing the lips against the canines hard enough to cause enough discomfort, that they let go. How hard that is , depends on the puppy.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> I think SG missed your question, but its basically squeezing the lips against the canines hard enough to cause enough discomfort, that they let go. How hard that is , depends on the puppy.


I did and thanks for supplying a good answer....


SuperG


----------



## Sofie and Miya's Mom (Dec 21, 2015)

Excellent thread. I am new here on the forum, and my Sofie is my first GSD that I am raising. My teenage years dog was a GSD and I watched my mom on training. Bo was not an overly mouthy dog. Sofie, my gsd, isn't either. I always attributed Sofie being gentle because I got her at 10 weeks old, and she was taught by her siblings. She has mouthed me a little too much a couple of times, and my simple removal of my hand and at the same time "Sofie no bite" has worked. 

Now my older girl Miya, totally different story. I've relayed the story of Miya to new husky owners. Husky owners endure the land shark just as bad as GSD owners. 

Miya is a beautiful, well mannered dog today. Under one year, good gosh, I can't tell people how bad she was, there is no description that can completely express how bad she was with mouthing. I can't tell you how many times this dog made me cry, not because she bit me too hard, but because of the harsh reality, that no other person would want this dog. She was terrible. She was a puppy possessed. I thought she was not trainable. 

I got Miya from a byb at 5.5 weeks old. My first 2 mistakes. My third mistake was in the belief, as sold, she was a husky wolf cross. So i was told to do the alpha roll, to be dominate over her, to inflict hash punishment. UGH!!!!!! This is not the way, and I swore to myself I would not use any of those techniques to ensure a great dog. I ended up for the most part using the 4 R's method, not knowing that is what you call it. And for the most part it worked. But the magic, the thing, the real training method for such an unruly dog......Tiring her mind and body, through things she wanted to do, as in biting. I wore many layers of the worst clothes I owned. I taught Miya "get an appropriate toy" she could choose what toy, and then we settled in on the "game" Normally tugs was the answer. So tugs it was, with many variations. 

In my experience, even as a kid at home, high drive dogs express themselves through their mouths, also they are abundantly intelligent. Using those 2 things to an owners advantage will help in the land sharking. I played tugs, I pushed Miya around, i became a dog, lol, funny yes, but that is what she wanted, she wanted to play rough. If she dropped the tugs and decided my arm was her new tuggy "Miya get an appropriate toy" Bam she would pick up the tugs. After 5 minutes of play, I would throw in a command, grab tugs and calm her, Miya sit, reward continuation of tugs. Play a minute or two, she drops tugs, bam "Miya leave it", so on and so forth. 

The playing and training combo was the absolute only way to deal with her desire to chomp on something. Redirection and time outs only worked when she was already tired. By tiring her body and mind with how she wanted too play was my life savior. The other method was hand feeding. This encouraged her to be gentle to my hands, so she could see I was the one who brought good things to her. 

I have never physically tried reprimanding her for negative actions on her part. My thinking was negative reactions bring only negative reactions back. Positive reactions bring on positive reactions. This built a huge bond with Miya and myself. This type of training also made it where it was quite easy for her to learn not to jump on people when she greets them, she has the Miya sit be gentle down to a science, and small children can come up to her and grab her ears and hug on her, she sits there and happily takes the attention in a very respectful manner. I was fearful of her around children, I do not have kids, but know plenty of people who do, I did not want to have her put down for biting. 

After all of this, I have to say, with Miya's desire to please me she is a husky gsd cross. she has great capacity of learning. The dog that nobody would have wanted, is wanted by most people that meet her, because she is a polite, well mannered dog. I hope that helps with a few newer people who are having a hard time with the mouthing. A tired dog is a well behaved dog.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I used to use the hand pressure method but it didn't work with our new puppy. He is working line, nothing bothers him at all and he keeps coming back for more. I use the treat bite inhibition method, let him sniff, close a fist around the treat if he bites, only give it if he uses his lips to carefully take it. He doesn't snap for treats anymore. 

My older dog does fake fight-play with him. She mouths him. He does it back. When he bites too hard, she corrects him. Two months later, he has a soft mouth. He put his teeth on me to get my attention yesterday and didn't bite down at all. Two months ago he would have squeezed until I yelped or he ripped my sleeve. It helps that his front baby teeth are starting to fall out.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The only thing that helped us was a leash correction and redirection. Eventually turned to "no biting "and redirection with a toy. Anything physical it was max thought it was puppy playtime no how much we were not playing. If he got the zoomed it was usually crate time. This however took months with gradual improvement, there was patience lost from time to time. I swear the bottle of Vicks worked for everything-max hated the smell. We all had colds one day and wore Vicks all over us we were like kryptinite just to make us feel better it winded up having a double edged sword. I don't even open the jar of Vicks and just say "I'm getting the Vicks " if he doesn't stop I get and show him the jar. he stops on a dime what he was doing. Still use it on occasion. He is very sensitive to smells and doesn't like the smell of smoke, gas from the barbecue or when he was a pup the floor cleaner. With due diligence it will get better. Remember some pups are mouthiest and more of a land shark then others. Patience repetition is the key.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

My dog is definitely my dog: Stubborn and inventive and I'll find a loophole.

So when I tried the redirect, my dog would ignore the "Uh-uh" or "ouch" or whatever, because she didn't care, and then she'd realize, "Oh, I get offered something fun if I bite. Verbal reprimand? No big - then it's play time!"

So basically she was me when I was three. Through about age 17, come to think of it.

I had to use a physical correction on her. Nothing that was harmful or scary, but a collar pop or a swift and decisive pull to the ground (or holding the muzzle shut and giving it a slight shake) and a firm, "NO BITE" was what got through to her.

I no longer take seriously anyone who says, "You should never..." Different dogs need different approaches. If the response is firm, immediate, and fair, and clear to the dog - and all of those things will probably differ by situation and dog - I'm okay with that.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I've enjoyed reading others approaches to dealing with a mouthy pup.

Watery...I think you nailed it with " If the response is firm, immediate, and fair, and clear to the dog - and all of those things will probably differ by situation and dog"

With all due respect to the method described so frequently this day and age and to all those who subscribe to the method.....I've never found the ignoring or "timing out" a nipping GSD pup to work as quickly or efficiently as methods I have used. I have to laugh a bit as I recall trying to ignore a couple of my pups at that stage when they were being overly mouthy and all it seemed to do was incite them more and bring it on even more. And quarantining a ramped up mouthy pup just seemed to make them like bulls coming out of the chute when the pup was liberated. Perhaps, it's my approach/mentality but I find it very difficult to ever ignore a dog. Certain lessons need to be learned and the sooner the better in this particular case.


SuperG


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I've enjoyed reading others approaches to dealing with a mouthy pup.
> 
> Watery...I think you nailed it with " If the response is firm, immediate, and fair, and clear to the dog - and all of those things will probably differ by situation and dog"
> 
> ...


Right? It was total, "I WILL NOT BE IGNORED DAN!" And then it was, "Ohhhhh, the supervisor is ignoring me. I will raid this/chase that/eat this other thing while she's not looking."


----------

