# Light colored maskless sable ?



## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

This little guy is our new puppy. The breeder just said he is a sable. Dad is Black and Tan and mom is maskless Black and Tan. I have looked through thousand of pics trying to find one like our guy. I haven’t had much luck. The breeder said he would grow up with more gray wolf like colors. Is this a true color? The pics below are from a range of 2 weeks. He is 5 weeks today, so we don’t pick him up for 3 more weeks. I googled and found the term maskless. If this is wrong please correct me! I have had a love for German shepherds my whole life but was never allowed to get one. I am finally getting my dream!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Your puppy definitely looks to be sable, but if mom and dad are black/tan than either they have the color wrong on one parent or another dog got in with mom. Two black/tan dogs can not create a sable since sable is a dominant color and needs at least one parent to be that color. Do you have pictures of the parents?


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

I do have pics. Let , me get them. I might have been wrong about the mom. I think she is the sable.


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

Here is a pic of mom and dad. Dad is in the far back on the right. And mom is the only dog on the left. So mom must be the sable then?


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

I Posted a picture...but i'm not seeing it. I'm not sure if my posts are being approved or not. sorry admin if you just haven't approved my previous message!


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

After looking at the pedigree, the dad’s grandpa is a sable. But his papers say he is ack Black and Tan. I haven’t received the moms papers yet. I asked.


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

Here is a pic. Mom is on the far left and dad is in the back on the right.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Is the middle dog on the right an intact male? Maybe he's the dad. If so maybe the pup will be a maskless version of him. 

That said I'm guessing this is a byb breeder situation but I could be wrong. But considering the supposed dad's ears look pretty floppy unless he's really something I wouldn't want pups out of him. 

I'm from up in MT and probably not what you want to hear, but there's a lot of not very good breeders around here.

That said cute pup and if you're getting him I hope he's healthy and everything you want!


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

Appreciate the advice ! The pup in the middle is another female, she has 3 females and the 1 male in the back. And the dad has his ears up in another pic she sent me.? I know they aren’t top of the line show quality. But from what she has said they are akc and good tempered. I am going to visit here in a week. any idea on his coloring ? He seems really light compared to others that I can’t get a good guess of what his colors will be like as an adult. Not that it matters. Just curious I suppose.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

your pup will be a very light sable probably. What drew you to this breeder? The dog in front, right looks more sable? The dog on the left looks like a mix, not a full GSD.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think the dam's head looks remarkably like that of the sire. Are you sure that the dam is not his daughter from a previous breeding? Perhaps out of one of the two other females? Maybe it is just the quality of the picture. 

With that said, I think the pup will have a different but interesting look when it grows up. I would love to follow the color progression as sables go through a lot of color changes before maturing.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I don't know how to say this gently...but, my dog is BYB. BUT, I spent time with both the dam and the sire and was impressed by both! Good conformation and temperment for both parents, and good coloration as well! I also did not pay AKC rates.

So, OP, if this breeder is asking anywhere near AKC rates for this puppy, I'd run! The dogs in the picture you posted all have very washed out colors, and the sire has weak ears!

What is the attraction? If it were me I'd pass! Find a good breeder to get a puppy from, you'll be glad you did!


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## pollysmom (Feb 12, 2019)

1. Was the litter registered with the AKC?
2. Did the breeder hand you the puppies AKC registration papers with her signature on it signing the puppy over to you?
3. If a sable is a strong color they will have a dark mask, a black stripe running down its back and black pencil marks over all of its toes. 
4. Masks get lighter not darker.
5. There is a good chance the puppy might end up being a light color all over its body
6. Pigment and color have nothing to do with the way the puppy will behave or perform
7. Please read AKC German Shepherd standards or DDR German Shepherd Standards.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

_ I have had a love for German shepherds my whole life but was never allowed to get one. I am finally getting my dream!_

That is a cute puppy. 
You waited your whole life to get a GSD, I really hope this dog is what you want. I truly mean that. 
But, here are the genetics. We cannot see mom very well, she could be a very light patterned sable but she looks black and tan and two black and tans did not produce a sable puppy. 
This breeder is clearly a BYB and Tim is correct, the sable female is not bad looking, dad is not a great example of the breed and the female you say is mom may not be purebred. I would very much like to see better pictures of mom.


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

Thank you all. I am on the fence as to what to do now. She is not asking akc prices. I have not picked up the puppy, so I haven’t seen papers. 

Honestly, the attraction is several things. I can not afford a $1500-3500 dog. Although I would really love to. She claimed that parents were akc and has the papers for that and the parents hips and elbows. 

Here is a few pictures of the mom with her liter. But if she doesn’t look as good, I’m concerned. I’ve seen a picture of an offspring she has produced and the pup looked good. I’ll attach that picture as well.


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

She showed me this picture of the other female (middle dog on the right in the picture with all adult dogs). It is not the mother, but loves laying with the babies etc.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I'd spend time with her "pack" before committing and make sure you like their temperaments etc. How old are her other dogs? How do they look getting around? Do they appear happy and healthy and loved?

If you are paying a little more than say an adoption fee from a good rescue (maybe around 400 a little north or south) then just understand you are in the same territory of adopting (which is fine). You won't know any genetic potentials for illness like HD. Take the money you are saving from buying a well bred dog with health testing and guarantees. and invest it in a good pet insurance. Personally I carry it on every dog regardless of breeding and how much I've paid for it, but it is even more of an important safety net when you are dealing with unknowns.


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## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

I suppose the question to ask is, What do you want from the dog? Is it going to be a family pet dog? A dog to do dog shows? Sports or service dog related goals? 

Yes it is a gamble going with a back yard breeder, but sometimes you find that diamond in the ruff like I did. I only paid 400$ for my girl. The breeder had all the AKC registration paperwork/lineage from the parents, signed the puppy over to me. The 400$ was the partial AKC registration because I don't plan on breeding her, so I figured the extra 400$ to pay for the full registration would be dumb.

A BYB puppy can be an amazing dog, but yes it is a gamble. I really think its all about how quick you get the puppy started with training. We started Mei out at 9 weeks. She napped a lot during class, mostly when the trainers were just talking, but I quickly realized the training is more for the owners than the dog. We did the puppy obedience group class for about 8 weeks, continued training on our own for a couple months then hired a personal trainer, who would come to the house or go out into public. 

I guess what I'm getting at, is do what you believe is right for your family. Love the puppy for what it is, mix or not, and keep him happy. From your other thread it sounds like you have a good plan in place and will get him into training as soon as possible.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think as long as your expectations are not that of a well bred German Shepherd ( by that I mean lack of minor/major faults per the standard) and you are not getting this pup to breed....then I see nothing wrong with getting this pup. Sometimes us “ experts” can be somewhat elitist. Health wise, I find that lesser bred dogs are more times healthier than our “pedigreed champions”. You sound like you want a nice pet and you would be a good home, so why doesn’t that pup deserve you. Good Luck!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

When black and tan dogs are bred to sable dogs, you can often get genetic sables with the black and tan pattern.....even in black and tans, there are light to no masks.....I would say the mother is a sable - a black and tan pattern gene sable - that is why she has a faded saddle. She obviously carries the white gene, which is present to some degree, masking her color, another reason of why she is so faded....there are white pups in the litter. I do not believe she is a mix, just a more randomly bred purebred dog who does not have a carefully chosen, higher quality pedigree - AKC does not offer any quality control, just registration of facts. Think of your car registration and the state license - ownership and origin (make and model) information.

This breeder seems to have a small pack of dogs - I believe him when he says that they are AKC as again, registration means that they have papers indicating origin of purebred stock and ownership...nothing more. If there are hip and elbow certifications on parents, and you get the names, you can look them up on ofa.org database....at the very least for a back yard breeding, that would be a positive....

I am not going to preach the wisdom of buying a pup from a more reputable, responsible breeder...you already have the pros and cons of that....and dogs from every type of breeder can end up with issues - your risk is less with a well bred litter....


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

Thank you everyone. I’ve been on the fence since. And she’s not able to provide me with akc papers like she said. And she’s waiting on ckc. Which I now know is a joke. I’m crushed and hate being lied to. I’ve shown the pics to other German Shepherd experts and they believe mom could be husky/German Shepherd. I’m working on letting the breeder refund my down payment or I will dispute. She claims it’s nonrefundable. But I believe i am being lied too. My dream is a pure bred German Shepherd that I can do agility trials with.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

CKC? Continental? Yes. Fake registry. The mother looks sable. Very poorly pigmented. The father has soft ears. Purebreds but poorly bred. Were there even OFA's done on the hips/elbows? Run from this. Not being able to produce AKC papers means you'll have to get an ILP number to compete in events. That will require neutering/spaying your dog.

Figure out what your budget is for a puppy of good quality and start another post.


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

Yes thank you. Trying to back out. She has my deposit. She’s claiming all sorts of things.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What is in writing? Has she made false claims? Did she say the puppies would be AKC registered? Did she say the deposit was non-refundable? If you put the deposit down with the written understanding that the puppy would be AKC registered and now that is proven false, then you probably have grounds to get your money back if you have to pursue civil.

How much was the deposit?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

How much of a deposit? Is it worth the fight? Because pursuing this can be costly. Even small claims court requires your commitment to showing up. If you prevail, collecting damages rests with you, not the court. On top of that, in my experience with a landlord, the defendant can get a postponement that you may not hear of until you arrive at court. 



On another note, one thing that disturbs me in the originally posted photo of all the adults --- lack of grooming -- the dogs have undercoat shedding wildly,. And that's a photo the breeder shares... So weak coloring, unknown health clearances, not groomed. On top of that, this puppy may be everything you want. He may be healthy as a horse (they get sick too now and again), he may have a great temperment. It's always a crap shoot but to mix the metaphor a bit, you want the deck stacked in your favor. 



Best wishes for a good outcome however you go. (money back or the pup)


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

I got half my deposit back. I reread the paper work and other then the false lies about them
Being purebred she didn’t claim anything else. I have learned a lesson. Completely heartbroken as we were so looking forward to our puppy.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I wasn't going to say anything, but my first impression was the pup was not all German Shepherd. I don't know how much you can afford, but a well bred GSD is not inexpensive. You will likely be better off in the long run learning more about different bloodlines and the GSD standard, and if necessary, saving up some money to get a dog you will enjoy and that is healthy. Also, from the photo you posted, just based on appearance, none of those dogs were breed worthy due to several obvious physical faults. The odds are high that the pups would have temperament and health issues. You need to find some reputable breeders and there are several here and many more out there. You just have to learn more.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

If your budget is tight, you might want to consider a rescue or shelter. I was astounded to find that our local shelter currently has 3 or 4 purebred, all black GSDs! Unfortunately I wasn't allowed to see any of them because they were not yet available for adoption. But I did see one while it was being worked with outside in a play group, beautiful 6 month old puppy! Just a thought...


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I would second looking at rescues or adult dogs unless you're committed on a puppy. If you pm we can discuss dogs and good places to get them or look for them in the area. I got a female GSD being rehomed on Facebook and she's a great dog. There are constantly purebred GSDs ending up in the Gillette animal shelter and lots of transportation for dogs in available in Montana and Wyoming.


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

Thank you all for your advice. I have peace about waking away. The deposit was only 100$. So I got $50 back. Now I just need to find a reputable breeder. I might look at a shelter as well.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I get the shelter thing. You are rescuing a dog and the price is right. But there is also so much you don't know about the dog's breeding or raising. I would want to put the odds more in my favor.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Since you are hoping to get a pup you have been dreaming of for a long time, your decision on this one, imho, was sound. I think you may not have gotten the support that a reputable breeder can offer had you bought the pup. As hard as it was and a bit down letting, I think that you have increased your chances for that dream pup. You just have a bit more time to find him/her. Find a breeder that can and will offer support via their knowledge.

I don't regret having my boy, not ever but I do regret the kennel choice - no longer in business.

Wish you lots of luck with your search and the journey.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you can save up $ while researching the breed, looking at different type/lines it would be the best for both you and your future puppy. Then you can focus on a breeder and breeding that interests you. Before you know it, you will have enough saved and more for supplies and vetting. Depending on your location, sometimes finding a rescue pup is very difficult, though it seems like in CA and TX there are many in shelters.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm going to guess you are new to German Shepherds and perhaps agility? My girl that I adopted from the shelter was a lot of fun and a great learning dog. Unfortunately, blew her knee on a wet surface playing one day so that ended that. You can certainly learn a lot if you get a dog that will work. There are dogs in rescue that need more of a working home. If you look, you can find them. What area are you in? Rescues usually work in a 3 state area so the dogs are easily transferred back if there are issues.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

If you have goals of getting into agility, you can also reach out to agility clubs near you. 

It's reasonably common for clubs to know about older puppy or young adult prospects that are available for one reason or another. 

Try going to some events, even without a dog. That'll help you find out about dogs that might be available near you. There are usually dogs around here that are being networked (word of mouth) locally, not necessarily posted online.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Try contacting this rescue. It's in MN but I would trust Randy to find you a dog, he was a K9 handler, with the proper drives if you pass the application process and meet rescue requirements.

Save a Shepherd Rescure Alliance | Giving a second chance to pure-bred German Shepherd Dogs who have been abandoned


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Littleleno said:


> I got half my deposit back. I reread the paper work and other then the false lies about them
> Being purebred she didn’t claim anything else. I have learned a lesson. Completely heartbroken as we were so looking forward to our puppy.


I feel so bad for you, I really debated whether we should say anything or not but in the end this is a dog you have dreamed about for a long time and you deserve to get what you have waited for. 
In the meantime hang around here, use the connections and learn what to look for. I have no doubt that the collective brain power on here can help you out, and again I'm sorry.


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## Littleleno (Feb 11, 2019)

Thank you so much. I appreciate all the help and support. I am at peace with the decision. I am a little sad, but, after doing a little more digging through a facebook group, it came to light that the grandfather was a rescue pup, CKC certified (which i know means nothing) and had a lot of health issues. I feel i have dodged a bullet with this one. And i can start looking for an actual breeder who is more knowledge about and willing to work with me. I did like the price tag of this little guy. but i'm finding now, that paying a little more will get me a better blood line (in theory). I'm going to be careful with my selection now. Thank you all.


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## bigblackdog (Feb 12, 2010)

So glad that you have changed your mind...and decided not to get a pup from this BYB. To the members saying it's not a big deal getting a pup from a BYB....after spending years fostering for rescue...it is a BIG deal. Why support a BYB? Why line the pockets of a BYB? More then likely, they make some money and that poorly bred female is bred again, and again. Some of the pups that are sold from this BYB, will also more than likely get bred...just adding to the work of rescue and shelters. If no one bought from BYB's....they would get stuck with puppies that they could not sell...and hopefully think twice about breeding poorly bred German Shepherds. Better to adopt one from a rescue or shelter, or buy from a responsible breeder that is doing everything right to produce great pups.

I also notice...that there was not one remark that these dog/pups were living in a barn....with straw down for bedding. Where I come from straw is used in barns for cows,horses, pigs,etc. in the barn. Dogs belong whelping, and being raised in a home.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

bigblackdog said:


> So glad that you have changed your mind...and decided not to get a pup from this BYB. To the members saying it's not a big deal getting a pup from a BYB....after spending years fostering for rescue...it is a BIG deal. Why support a BYB? Why line the pockets of a BYB? More then likely, they make some money and that poorly bred female is bred again, and again. Some of the pups that are sold from this BYB, will also more than likely get bred...just adding to the work of rescue and shelters. If no one bought from BYB's....they would get stuck with puppies that they could not sell...and hopefully think twice about breeding poorly bred German Shepherds. Better to adopt one from a rescue or shelter, or buy from a responsible breeder that is doing everything right to produce great pups.
> 
> I also notice...that there was not one remark that these dog/pups were living in a barn....with straw down for bedding. Where I come from straw is used in barns for cows,horses, pigs,etc. in the barn. Dogs belong whelping, and being raised in a home.


I personally don't always have an issue with BYB dogs. I have issue with anyone selling anything as something it's not. 
If someone says I'm not smart enough to stop my dogs reproducing and I want to recoup some of the money I spent so hand me a hundred bucks and take what you get, that's fine. 
If someone is deliberately misleading a buyer (ckc paperwork) that's fraud.
Remember I struck solid gold with a byb dog, and sadly lost her to DM.
I have rescued and fostered too many dogs, I have seen the situations they come from and they aren't all bad.
As far as them living in a barn? Not my thing but better then some. They are dogs and capable of living happily outside when cared for. Mom and pups look clean and healthy and since Shadow is currently blowing her coat it all seems very tempting and frankly more logical then a full time job running a vacuum.
Had the OP said, I really want a dog and found someone with a litter of shepherd type pups that are available for cheap. Moms a sweetheart and dads just a Romeo. Most of us would have responded with go for it, get pet insurance. But " I have waited all my life and finally can have a German Shepherd. Breeder says they are registered." That's not fair.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

cliffson1 said:


> I think as long as your expectations are not that of a well bred German Shepherd ( by that I mean lack of minor/major faults per the standard) and you are not getting this pup to breed....then I see nothing wrong with getting this pup. Sometimes us “ experts” can be somewhat elitist. Health wise, I find that lesser bred dogs are more times healthier than our “pedigreed champions”. You sound like you want a nice pet and you would be a good home, so why doesn’t that pup deserve you. Good Luck!


I agree with Cliffson. I'm kind of sorry you didn't take the pup. I understand you want your dream dog and PB GSD. Definitely your decision. 

I currently have two shelter dogs. I adopted them as puppies. Natty Boh is a hound mix and came from a SC shelter. Shelby is high content GSD and came from a KY shelter. Both were transported to Maryland. I met them, when they got here.

How much information did I get on my dogs? Zero. How much do shelters know? Little to nothing. They know if the dogs were surrendered or stray. Other information depends on the honesty of the surrendering owner. Shelters/rescues, may think a dog looks PB, but without papers and/or DNA testing, it's just a guess. Where do rescues get dogs? The majority of rescues are from shelters. Most rescues don't accept owner surrenders. What do rescues know about the dogs? They can foster them and watch for behavioral issues. They can get them treated for obvious health issues. Much remains unknown.

My GSD mix came to the shelter with her litter at 8 weeks old. Maybe I could have bought one from the owner, before they wound up at the shelter. Maybe a rescue would have snatched up the litter and I could have adopted from them. At the end of the day, it's the same puppy. It's all a crap shoot, because this is life.

I wish you all the best. There are a lot of dogs and puppies out there who need a loving home. Hoping you find the perfect one for you - very soon.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If this were just a pet, then I would agree. But she wants to do a sport with the puppy. So health matters. Drive matters. And the choice on whether to spay or neuter matters because AKC gives you no choice if you want to trial.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

I don't want to discourage you but *don't* let emotions rule your decision. Meaning falling for the cute puppy on looks alone. I'll never even look at a BYB again. My first girl was from one and she lived a long healthy life. My recent girl RIP, was from what I now consider a typical breed for profit BYB with no regard for the dogs health and welfare. I was desperate to get another GSD and let emotions play a role in taking her. The loss of her at 9 mos old hurt worse than all the money I spent trying to save her life. I have a recent thread here that documents what I went through for her, over a months time. 



As it's been said, a BYB pup is a gamble so just be prepared for whatever fate throws your way. I learned a valuable lesson costing me far more than what I spent on her. Sad as it sounds, if a BYB was my only option for a GSD pup, I'd go without. Good luck with your search


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Littleleno said:


> Thank you so much. I appreciate all the help and support. I am at peace with the decision. I am a little sad, but, after doing a little more digging through a facebook group, it came to light that the grandfather was a rescue pup, CKC certified (which i know means nothing) and had a lot of health issues. I feel i have dodged a bullet with this one. And i can start looking for an actual breeder who is more knowledge about and willing to work with me. I did like the price tag of this little guy. but i'm finding now, that paying a little more will get me a better blood line (in theory). I'm going to be careful with my selection now. Thank you all.


I missed this post somehow and glad you are at peace with your decision. IMO...you made the right one


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## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> If this were just a pet, then I would agree. But she wants to do a sport with the puppy. So health matters. Drive matters. And the choice on whether to spay or neuter matters because AKC gives you no choice if you want to trial.


I agree. That's why in my initial post I asked if she just wants a house pet or something more for showing, doing a sport or even something service related. 

I think she mentioned she's from Wyoming so hopefully someone here can point her in the direction of some reputable breeders!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

bigblackdog said:


> So glad that you have changed your mind...and decided not to get a pup from this BYB. To the members saying it's not a big deal getting a pup from a BYB....after spending years fostering for rescue...it is a BIG deal. Why support a BYB? Why line the pockets of a BYB? More then likely, they make some money and that poorly bred female is bred again, and again. Some of the pups that are sold from this BYB, will also more than likely get bred...just adding to the work of rescue and shelters. If no one bought from BYB's....they would get stuck with puppies that they could not sell...and hopefully think twice about breeding poorly bred German Shepherds. Better to adopt one from a rescue or shelter, or buy from a responsible breeder that is doing everything right to produce great pups.
> 
> I also notice...that there was not one remark that these dog/pups were living in a barn....with straw down for bedding. Where I come from straw is used in barns for cows,horses, pigs,etc. in the barn. Dogs belong whelping, and being raised in a home.


You look at the breeder, I look at the pups! Whether or not a dog ends up in a shelter has much more to do with the owners than the quality of the dog. And talk to veterinarians about which dogs they see that has more health issues....I think they would have better opinion on this than most here. Some people are content with just pets as are so many people happy with mixed breeds or mutts. The premise that people are going to stop byb by not buying from them is no more going to happen than people are going to not have mutts as pets. 
Btw, pups in Europe are not primarily whelped in a house....I guess they got it wrong too.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

cliffson1 said:


> You look at the breeder, I look at the pups! Whether or not a dog ends up in a shelter has much more to do with the owners than the quality of the dog. And talk to veterinarians about which dogs they see that has more health issues....I think they would have better opinion on this than most here. Some people are content with just pets as are so many people happy with mixed breeds or mutts. The premise that people are going to stop byb by not buying from them is no more going to happen than people are going to not have mutts as pets.
> Btw, pups in Europe are not primarily whelped in a house....I guess they got it wrong too.


 Valid point, but every dollar not spent at a BYB is one less dollar paid to support them.


Not arguing your point...just feels good to finally say I despise them now.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

https://www.vtgsd.com/puppies/gsd-health.html

A bit out of date but a good read none the less. For anyone who thinks health is not important in breeding.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> https://www.vtgsd.com/puppies/gsd-health.html
> 
> A bit out of date but a good read none the less. For anyone who thinks health is not important in breeding.


Thanks for posting that...great read and very informative!!


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Hello and welcome! So sorry for your disappointment. If agility is what you’re after, it definitely depends on the individual dogs as many mutts excel! It takes time to develop a eye for good conformation breed standard or not.


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## mkinttrim (Jul 3, 2011)

Sent you a PM.


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## dkallas (Jul 29, 2015)

Both my black boy is from BYB but ones I've known a long time. His parents are in opposite corners and have good lines.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Like other have said $300-400 is the right price for thepups and there is nothing wrong with mix breeds. The breeder should have her dogs’papers/numbers to show you. There is no reason for her to NOT have their information and vet records on hand and filed did you look up the parents at the AKC site? All you need is their AKC number, who was the parents of the puppy's parents it’s all there. Always get contracts in writing. Don’t feel too sorry, she will find homes for those pups. As for getting your first German Shepherd(don’t expect to win best in show nor breed your dog if that is what you want to do=that takes time, learning,$$$ money and more experience/dogs) but can’t afford the high price, you could either adopt one or go to the AKC breed shows and talk to those breeders/owners showing their dogs and they would be able to put you in touch with someone who has good pups in your price range and don’t forget there are true good breeders who take monthly payments as well. Ps the dog world is not just about best in breeds/obedience-there are so many other things you can do with your dog. Your first German shepherd is your learning dog as there are different types of German Shepherds. I have the German show line because as a whole they tend to have less drive and this is my 4th German shepherd. Conformation is great fun but to place highin AKC(will you be discharged if your first dog didn’t place at all) a lot of that also depends on the judge that day. I prefer tracking/scent work and in my 55+. The German working line is a best line for protection/Schutzhund work for really active people but also a lot of work and time. Ps try to get a pup that is DM clear if you can. DON’T GIVE UP-YOUR PUP IS OUT THERE WAITING JUST FOR YOU


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

cliffson1 said:


> You look at the breeder, I look at the pups! Whether or not a dog ends up in a shelter has much more to do with the owners than the quality of the dog. And talk to veterinarians about which dogs they see that has more health issues....I think they would have better opinion on this than most here. Some people are content with just pets as are so many people happy with mixed breeds or mutts. The premise that people are going to stop byb by not buying from them is no more going to happen than people are going to not have mutts as pets.
> Btw, pups in Europe are not primarily whelped in a house....I guess they got it wrong too.


You are so correct. I have been to other countries and most breeders of herding dogs do not raise their pups in the house=German shepherd is a herd dog. My well known/respected breeder=$$$$ dog WAS raised in a barn around livestock=horses/kids and people and I wouldn’t want him any other way seeing how I live on a pick your own blue berry farm with birds/horses, paying parent/kids so I don’t have to worry about him attacking the neighbor’s occasional roaming pig, cats and um berry sneaking kids.


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## BillWas2 (Oct 19, 2013)

He looks a though he's a sable pup. I have a 7.5 year old sable male GSD (Qanuk) and he did have similar coloration at seven weeks to some of your images; particularly the one showing the darker 'stripe' down his spine. I've attached a few images


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