# Inbred lines



## SpicyBulldog (Jul 23, 2011)

Are there any tightly inbred lines in the GSD? What is typical when it comes to line breeding? 

I'm also wondering if any "defects" in inbred dogs specifically have been produced and then said to be a result of Inbreeding?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There is not as much tight "inbreeding" in the GS lines, though there is much longterm linebreeding of 10 to 15 straight generations of the same dogs, cousins, and uncles. These particular lines are known for their extremes, usually in structure. They are no longer sought for high sport or work, and you have other lines that are linebred for specific breeding goals. These dogs tend to have more balance and the linebreeding will be to gain something or correct something, but then they move back to the middle.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jul 23, 2011)

Do you have pedigree examples of those bred for 10+ generations and if they are not sought for sport is it show or simply a certain extreme structure / look? I apologise in advance for my ignorance.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Its for show...take any West German showline dog today, go back 10 to 15 generations and it will stare out at you.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

My Male High-Line Line-breeding - 5 generations
5 - 5 .......... in VA1 Zamb von der Wienerau
4 - 4 .......... in V Flick von Arlett
5,5 - 5.......... in VA5 Yago vom Wildsteiger Land
5 - 5 .......... in V12 Ursa von Arlett
4 - 5 .......... in V1 Cim vom Ecknachtal

Then in the 6th it starts showing!!
V3 Cello von der Römerau (5,6 - 6,6,6,6)
A direct line to Uran!!
VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land (6,7,7,7,7,7,7 - 7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7) :wild:
VA3 Xitta vom Kirschental in his 7th (7,7 - 7 All with Uran)!!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

And people can't or won't make the connection between this much linbreeding and less than overall acceptable temperament and health. I don't speak from emotions or what I like, I speak from plain facts. Get any of these WGSL dogs do the same and they ALL will show similar results. Can't people see how much of the breed has been EXCLUDED for some 10 to 15 generations. Is this responsible breeding or ....Well forget it. It is what it is, but don't try to tell me these lines are the same in what the breed should be as they were in the past, because the genetics clearly shows they ain't.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Uran Wildsteiger land NOT to be confused with Uran Kirschental !! was the dog most oftened mentioned in the SV magazines as having progeny "mit Schwere HD" -- removed for breeding . This created a real bottle neck in show lines.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jul 23, 2011)

Don't have a GSD but I've not seen a correlation with inbeeeding and poor temperament and temperament issues.

Health can be a different story if there are recessive problems or a mutation occurred. There is also the issue if immunity and lifespan.

I think it is interesting the views on different types of breedings from breed to breed.



Deejays_Owner said:


> My Male High-Line Line-breeding - 5 generations
> 5 - 5 .......... in VA1 Zamb von der Wienerau
> 4 - 4 .......... in V Flick von Arlett
> 5,5 - 5.......... in VA5 Yago vom Wildsteiger Land
> ...


What is the COI for this dog? In 6 generations, in 10 generations.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The temperament issues for extensive in or linebreeding is directly related to the dog or dogs used for the in/linebreeding. If you extensively linebreed ona Canto vd Wienereau, who was weak in temperament and more importantly from weak tempered stock.......then its not hard to understand that as you keep pounding and pounding him into pedigrees generation after generation, the temperament will suffer. Commom sense to me, but many many others are in denial.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jul 23, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> The temperament issues for extensive in or linebreeding is directly related to the dog or dogs used for the in/linebreeding. If you extensively linebreed ona Canto vd Wienereau, who was weak in temperament and more importantly from weak tempered stock.......then its not hard to understand that as you keep pounding and pounding him into pedigrees generation after generation, the temperament will suffer. Commom sense to me, but many many others are in denial.


I fully agree with that. Temperament is genetic so it only makes sense. Some people believe line breeding period makes bad temperament dogs.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> The temperament issues for extensive in or linebreeding is directly related to the dog or dogs used for the in/linebreeding. If you extensively linebreed ona Canto vd Wienereau, who was weak in temperament and more importantly from weak tempered stock.......then its not hard to understand that as you keep pounding and pounding him into pedigrees generation after generation, the temperament will suffer. Commom sense to me, but many many others are in denial.


Building on what Cliff says here....

Not only is it important that the dogs being "compounded" in a pedigree be sound mentally and physically, it's important that health and temperament criteria be maintained with every generation in the pedigree. 

If a pedigree is completely open (say it's two different breeds of dogs, even), and the health or temperament of one parent is bad, then you are increasing the likelihood of problems in the offspring. 

The idea, however, behind the superiority of "open" breeding is that in theory, the two unrelated parents won't have the same recessive genes and thus they will stay recessive and never be expressed. So it's "safer" in theory. The contra-argument is that by inbreeding you force the recessive genes to reveal themselves and thus you can breed them out.

The real problem with inbreeding is "breeding yourself into a corner" -- where the hidden recessives are so common that every dog in the gene pool carries some of the genes for a problem. You could say that GSDs are in this situation as far as some of the complex health problems, such as HD or hemangiosarcoma or sensitive stomachs or cauda equina--the genes are in the pool, and there's no dog or bloodline you can go to that is definitely not also carrying some of those elements that could cause those problems to pop up. So, we are left "breeding away" from those problems using the limited tools that we have--xrays for HD, observed (lack of) problems with stomachs, etc. 

If we had proven DNA testing for these problems, we could eventually eliminate these problems, but without these tests, as long as the GSD breed has a closed pool of breeding candidates, we are unlikely to ever completely eliminate the problem. And even with an open breeding pool (open registration system), it wouldn't be simple to eliminate such a widespread and genetically complex problem as HD.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Precisely as Christine states, it becomes complex with this breed because of the initial makeup of the breed in the first place. People like Christine, Chris, Lee, Lisa, Carmen, Sue, know of lines that are super strong in temperament especially nerve and hardness. But....some of these lines over the years have proven to show a higher incidence of HD. Do you not use these lines because you increase the chances of HD....Heaven forbid, if you want the breed to remain as courageous as its past. Yet you cannot continually pound these lines generation after generation or the HD factor will increase in severity until the functionality of the dog is compromised. So there has to be a balance, because the breed was created out of balancesand when it strays to far from the middle, it inadvertently affects more than one area.


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