# how to teach proper sit?



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

my dog rocks back onto his butt instead of tucking it in during a sit. it's really noticeable when he is heeling on my side and then sits. he will move his front legs back instead of moving his back legs up making him out of position and behind my body. when i lure above his head he will rock back onto his butt. how is the proper schutzhund sit taught? anyone have a video? thanks.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

You need to lure forward and up instead of back over the dog's head. Only reward the proper repetitions. I'll see if I can find a video.

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If your lure is too high the dog rolls back on his haunches like you're seeing. The lure has to be more at eye level. Ass moves opposite of where the head goes so if he's rolling back on his ass it's because his head is up too high.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

thanks both of the posts made a lot of sense! i just tried it with him and its amazing how a few tiny differences in movement can make a dog sit differently. 

do you guys have any tips for sitting properly from a down? if my dog is in a down and i say sit he will use his front feet to pop up and suddenly he's out of plane again. he doesnt stand and then tuck his butt in. suggestions?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Start your cue to stand and then shift up to the sit. I would work just this behavior, instead of chaining, until he gets it down.

So if you move towards the dog to stand him, keep your hand low to get him to start the stand and then pop him up to the sit.

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Think of your lure steering the dog's head, and his butt doing the opposite.

David Winners


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

Then again, a sit is a sit, and at the end of the day, when all the preconceptions of IPO/Schutzhund as a 
'sport' are set aside for a more serious discussion - it is a breed survey, to assess the dogs trainability and drives, not a training competition.

If your dog does not title or titles on the wrong drive, it should not be bred from, but if your dog excels, you almost have an obligation to breed, to maintain the correct character of the breed, so that it is preserved for future generations to come.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Then again, a sit is a sit, and at the end of the day,


A sluggish sit can turn into a crouch.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> Then again, a sit is a sit, and at the end of the day, when all the preconceptions of IPO/Schutzhund as a
> 'sport' are set aside for a more serious discussion - it is a breed survey, to assess the dogs trainability and drives, not a training competition.
> 
> If your dog does not title or titles on the wrong drive, it should not be bred from, but if your dog excels, you almost have an obligation to breed, to maintain the correct character of the breed, so that it is preserved for future generations to come.


What does that have to do with training proper mechanics in obedience?

If you want to train in prey drive, use a toy. If you want to train in fight, reward with a bite. It's more complicated than that of course, but in a nutshell, your primary reward is going to decide how you are tapping the dogs drives, not the particular exercise you are training.

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

People train in ipo and ringsport for tons of other reasons aside from breeding. This much becomes clear when you see the mixed breeds. It is a training competition for many of them, and the training methodologies are on trial as much if not more than the dogs for many. Sometimes it's just a fun and enriching thing to do with your dog. It's different things to different people.

You can make the argument that as the training gets better the breed suffers, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Boomer you can try what David suggested but it also might fix itself if you just consistently keep the sit lure lower and close to his face. Looking up high and rolling on the haunches would have become a habit and because looking up caused a stretch he might be pushing back a bit with those front feet because it was more comfortable. Another thing to remember is the rolling the haunches back naturally involves the legs angling forward instead of being kept at 90 degrees with the floor. He's moving to that position from the down because that was the picture you were marking and rewarding for. I bet after enough reps with the lure kept low, and then eventually just refusing to acknowledge and reinforce the rollback sit the problem goes away on its own.

I do the same thing David basically suggested to drop the dog from sit to a down, so that advice def can't hurt.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i've done a couple training sessions with the sit and he has definitely gotten better. i'm sure he hasnt fully understood the new position yet but he's getting there. i've also held his leash so that he cant rock backwards and cant move his front feet. this really helped him understand what part of his body should be moving and what shouldnt.

the bigger problem is keeping his front side still while transitioning to a sit from a down. or even from a down to a stand. should i use a pad or an elevated bench to make him keep his front feet still? i heard since its a small area they have to be more aware of their body and the movements will be more precise.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The really important thing is to only mark perfect repetitions. However you get them, using physical restraint, a box, luring or spatial pressure is up to you. On a side note; this is why trainers are really particular about position training for competition prospects. Shaping the behavior can take however long it needs to, but once you name it and start marking and rewarding incorrect positions, it's really difficult to override those initial habits and muscle memory.

I have gone all the way back to basics and retrained positions when dogs are sloppy. I find that proper luring works best for me. I start over with the lure and then fade to a cue then add the command again (sometimes using a different word if necessary) when I like what the dog is doing. This is what works for ME, but many others feel more comfortable using a bar, box or table. 


Here is a dog on a box. Notice how small the box must be to keep the front shoulders from moving backwards. You can start with a bigger box and see if your dog will stay clear of the rear edge, and adjust accordingly. There will be a few sessions just getting your dog used to and staying on the box. It's a proven method that many high level trainers will use to fix positions.
padok positions - YouTube


Here is some table work. I don't like how the puppy moves backwards in the down and then forwards in the stand from the down. I prefer the lure because I have 3 dimensional control over the dog. This table, or anytime you have a stop at the front of a dog, will force the dogs shoulder backwards when downing, and forwards when coming out of the down.
Burgos Kahlua - YouTube


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah like David said don't be afraid to go all the way back to square one and go to lure only for a while and fix it there, marking only perfection. We have all done it. The dog will get it again much faster than they did the first time anyway because you already established something familiar.

To elaborate a bit further on what David said...

Not taking a step back to that can cause frustration in the dog. If you've ever called for the behavior got the old sloppy one and then not marked for it and his eyes went wide and he barked at you like wtf!? You know what I mean. It isn't always that obvious sometimes he just looks the other way or starts to fidget. Your training session can suffer as they will want to check out. I generally value 100% engagement over the behaviors themselves.

When you lure the new correct behaviors I prefer to use a bit of special pressure to prevent the forward movement at first. If you focus on the feet and don't reward for forward movement they get it after enough reps. Everything in that case starts way up close to the dog. 

When you begin to do the behaviors at a distance IMO it's not done till you are on the command and lure has been abbreviated to a small gesture or eliminated completely, and you've worked the behaviors for duration. You want to avoid saying yes or whatever it is you use to release the dog to the reward for while you are still at a distance as it encourages them to cheat forward to you since that's where the reward is. Say good or your duration marker, then come forward to the dog and you can mark reward from there. The reward comes to them and they don't get tempted to cheat forward. This is especially important in any behavior the dog ends in a stand. This was the big mistake that used to cause dogs to cheat forward for me.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Baillif said:


> When you lure the new correct behaviors I prefer to use a bit of *special* pressure to prevent the forward movement at first. If you focus on the feet and don't reward for forward movement they get it after enough reps. Everything in that case starts *way up close to the dog*.


Just for clarification, I'm sure Baillif meant *spatial pressure.* You are going to use your body to pressure the dog into moving up and backwards, or at least not moving forward. Creep is a *****! Teaching in this way makes creeping mechanically opposite of the dogs actions in changing position.



Nice post.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yes. stupid auto corrections on the ipad. Typing with thumbs is the worst thing ever.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my last GSD had a habit of sitting with his rear legs out to the side.
with the dog sitting on my left i use to place my left arm over his
rear left leg. i would tell him to "sit". i helped him into the sit by raising
the leash. my left arm over his rear left leg aided in the sit. so now
he learned to sit straight or gathered. on that occassion when he didn't
sit straight i use to take one step forward and he would gather himself
and sit straight.

i never used a lure to teach my dog to do something. i praised and treated.
don't depend on the dog to sit straight. you may have to physically help
him into the position you want.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> my last GSD had a habit of sitting with his rear legs out to the side.
> with the dog sitting on my left i use to place my left arm over his
> rear left leg. i would tell him to "sit". i helped him into the sit by raising
> the leash. my left arm over his rear left leg aided in the sit. so now
> ...


This is escape / avoidance type training, combined with positive reinforcement. Nothing wrong with that per say, but the OP is using markers. Adding escape training to the mix now could really confuse the dog. JMHO

David Winners


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

never heard of escape/avoidance training. my trainer taught me the
technique i used. what was i escaping and avoiding? what markers are 
the OP usuing. pm me so we don't highjack the thread.



doggiedad said:


> my last GSD had a habit of sitting with his rear legs out to the side. with the dog sitting on my left i use to place my left arm over his rear left leg. i would tell him to "sit". i helped him into the sit by raising the leash. my left arm over his rear left leg aided in the sit. so now he learned to sit straight or gathered. on that occassion when he didn't sit straight i use to take one step forward and he would gather himself and sit straight.
> 
> i never used a lure to teach my dog to do something. i praised and treated.
> don't depend on the dog to sit straight. you may have to physically help
> him into the position you want.





David Winners said:


> >>>>> This is escape / avoidance type training, combined with positive reinforcement.<<<<<
> 
> Nothing wrong with that per say, but the OP is using markers. Adding escape training to the mix now could really confuse the dog. JMHO
> 
> David Winners


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm really kicking myself for not training it right the first time. My dog really is a pro at doing all the commands, just the wrong way. Looks like I will have to go back to complete basics because it is unfair to the dog when he enthusiacally sits (how he's been taught) and I pull him back up and don't reward him. 

I love that video of the small box. Very little movement and very precise. If I go back to basics, can I start on the box? Or is that reserved for when the dog understands the movements a little better? Either way I'm building myself a freaking box! 

Btw some really great info on this thread! And yes I do marker training with food/toy


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> never heard of escape/avoidance training. my trainer taught me the
> technique i used. what was i escaping and avoiding? what markers are
> the OP usuing. pm me so we don't highjack the thread.


The dog learns he can turn the leash pressure off by performing the behavior that would be what is called the functional reward. The treat after is the bonus. So it is a carrot and stick thing. It's called escape avoidance because the dog wants to escape or avoid the pressure and learns it can do that through performing the behavior. I use it in teaching leash pressure and stuff like that. There's pluses and minuses to it like anything.

Boomer we have all been there. Don't kick yourself. You learn from it and try again. If you spend a lot of time on luring the right way and then not naming the behavior until you can consistently get exactly what you want you won't need the box, the box is a good tool to have but you don't want it to become a crutch. Before you start fresh you might want to get the Ellis power of training with food video. There is a ton more information there than we could provide here and you get to see the process, including the order they teach position and position changes that help avoid issues. The starting from lures again won't frustrate the dog, trust me he doesn't care, they like visual cues more than auditory ones anyway.


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