# Training a very strong "Out" command



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I've been trying to move from food rewards to tug rewards as the amount of rewards we use for Agility makes it hard for me to keep my dog lean. She has built a really strong toy drive through this- to the point where I think she would rather tug than get a food reward.

...But she sucks at "out." I can think of a lot of ways to use aversives to get her to "out" the tug, but I'd rather try some positive methods first. Some things I can think of:



Prong collar corrections when she won't drop it (I've seen this in the Ivan videos)
Prying the tug out (if I touch her tongue, she will immediately drop it- though I've read this is a _major_ no-no.)
Very, very high value food reward (perhaps NB roll)
Obviously, #3 is the way to go. But the question is- if tugging has become more of a reward than food, how do you use food as a reward for not tugging? Quite the conundrum...

I _really_ want a solid "out." We use this for agility and it is becoming a problem that it takes me so long to get her to release a tug so we can try an obstacle again.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Masi does a really good "out",,and for her it was easy to train, (why I don't know she was just 'easy!

She is a tugging fool, and her high value is a frisbee, I figured if I can get her to "out" on that, I could get her to out on anything..

I first taught her a good 'drop it',,with anything and everything other than her frisbee. She soon learned if she 'dropped it',, She would get it back faster and more "play" than if she didn't . Nothing ticks her off more than her having a toy and no one will play with her.

I then transferred the drop it command to OUT...Started with a tug,,I get her amped up, holding it with both hands, she has to sit/stay and NOT touch it, until I say so..
I tell her to "take it", still me holding with both hands,,tug for awhile,,and then I "out" her..what can I say sometimes I have to really yell OUT and MEAN IT

So , now I transferred the tug to the frisbee since THAT is her really HIGH value toy..You can just see her go "ok ok if I out this, she's gonna throw she's gonna throw it"...

I guess it's about her learning control , and what's the fastest way to get the reward she wants..

anyhooooo thats' what I've done for a good "out"..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I use none of those methods. With a tug, when I want the dog to out, I "lock up" the tug by holding it solid against my thigh. When it's not moving and there's no pressure, it's out of play to the dog, and they will release it. As soon as they release, I use my marker word and start playing again. Eventually I work in the out command and voila!

Personally I don't like or understanding using food for this behavior. You WANT the dog to WANT the tug above all else or see the tug as the bridge to interacting with you. So if you stick food in the dog's face....I guess I don't get it. But that doesn't mean the dog should not out on command.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have been taught a super way...... to start, let them tug for a good long while. When you think they are getting tired, brace the tug against your leg (so that it is "dead") and say out. 90% of the time, once it is dead, the dog outs (as long as the dog is tired).

When the dog outs, immediately re-engage in play/tug. Then repeat.
This works well and develops a dog who has no issues with outing, and is fast.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your replies so far!



Liesje said:


> I use none of those methods. With a tug, when I want the dog to out, I "lock up" the tug by holding it solid against my thigh. When it's not moving and there's no pressure, it's out of play to the dog, and they will release it. As soon as they release, I use my marker word and start playing again. Eventually I work in the out command and voila!


This is the method mentioned in Disk II (The Game) of the Ivan series. But even Ivan mentions that not every dog will just out the tug on command, and this is where he implements collar corrections. So if we are tugging and I make the tug "dead" and she still sits there with pressure on the tug- what do I do? Wait it out? That's where I am not understanding...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I do the same as Lies. If you reward the dog(game back on) as soon as they out, they will be willing to out quicker and consistantly. 
Pressure on the tug from the dog and you when outing won't help, because she still feels she is in tug mode. Some dogs won't out when the toy goes dead, I know Karlo didn't always when he was learning.
You should pick the dog up by the collar and wait it out, without having any tension on the tug/ball. As soon as she spits it, mark it/reward by starting the game again.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> You should *pick the dog up by the collar* and wait it out, without having any tension on the tug/ball.


So you _do_ issue a collar correction?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No, just lift the dog up by the collar, no correction at all. I use a fursaver or flat when I'm training.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

gagsd said:


> I have been taught a super way...... to start, let them tug for a good long while. When you think they are getting tired, brace the tug against your leg (so that it is "dead") and say out. 90% of the time, once it is dead, the dog outs (as long as the dog is tired).
> 
> When the dog outs, immediately re-engage in play/tug. Then repeat.
> This works well and develops a dog who has no issues with outing, and is fast.


this is what I do and it works well. The reward for "out" was to reingage.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

and have used what onyx explained early on, when he didn't know it as well...once he outed, I reingaged. He figured it out fast.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't know if this will help but the way I taught my terrier (who used to clamp his jaws down tighter if he thought you were even THINKING of getting a toy out of his mouth) was to have two toys ready. If the tug is too interesting you can try with a lower-value toy first. With my dog what I did was when I wanted him to drop the toy I pulled out a second toy that was more interesting, then when he dropped the first I rewarded him with the second toy. Once he knew the cue I was able to switch to just giving the cue to drop the toy and then reward him with the toy he just dropped. This got a very good/fast drop it because he knew if he wanted to keep playing he had to drop. Actually I ended up with almost the opposite from the original problem-- if he was fetching he'd drop the toy too soon because he knew I was going to ask him to drop it and he wanted to do it more quickly so we could continue the game.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

wildo said:


> Thanks everyone for your replies so far!
> 
> 
> 
> This is the method mentioned in Disk II (The Game) of the Ivan series. But even Ivan mentions that not every dog will just out the tug on command, and this is where he implements collar corrections. So if we are tugging and I make the tug "dead" and she still sits there with pressure on the tug- what do I do? Wait it out? That's where I am not understanding...


Yes, you wait. It might take a while the first few times and the tug has to be DEAD (braced against your leg with both hands so you're not tugging back).

Same as gagsd described, except I don't wait to tire the dog, I do it whenever I feel like it (and at first I do it a LOT so they learn that outing isn't bad, it's not the end of the game).


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Tonight I gave this method a shot. One thing I noticed is that I was not immobilizing the tug as well as I should have. I thought that this meant that you apply resistance so that the dog cannot move it. I'm sure to everyone that it would be obvious that the dog thinks I am continuing to tug in this state. So when I braced it on my leg and truly immobilized the tug, she did catch on pretty quick that the game stopped until she let go. Good progress!! Thanks guys!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yep, you got it! That's the trick.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I need to revisit this thread. I thought I saw progress here, but I am not so sure I really did. I've heard that for a lot of dogs, the reward is not _possession _of the tug so much as the _act _of tugging. I think I've discovered it is quite the contrary for Pimg. I don't know if I am just boring or what, but if we engage in a game of tug- she is never more satisfied than to run off with the tug once "she wins." Even if I brace the thing against my leg and make it dead- I think she is still rewarded just for having it in her mouth. She doesn't seem too overly phased that the tug is "dead" -she still has possession.

So I am thinking that if possession is the reward for her, then I need to change my training philosophy. In fact, I think that must mean that I have failed to make toy play a clear thing. For her- toy play equals getting and keeping the toy. For me, toy play equals tugging and releasing...

Given that info- would you guys change the training methodology? The "make it dead" thing is not really working... This is causing our training sessions (with a toy reward) to be extra long.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

You could try two methods here depending on how positive you want to try to keep it.

Personally I would implement a collar correction at this point, but you could also try trading the tug for a different tug.

I think you are right in that she prefers possession of the tug vs actually tugging and interacting with you. The difference here is that a dog that truely wants to tug and interact (like my Mal) will temporarily do a "victory lap" with his tug - tail high, all proud of himself for winning - but then returns with it to me and wants to tug again.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yeah- she wants to do her victory lap, but goes and lays down by the water bowl (mind you- putting the toy in the water :rofl. She'll come back every time if I call her but she doesn't necessarily come back on her own for more play. Well- not outside with room to run around anyway. Inside the house- she'll try to play all night long...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

BTW- despite what you _think_ you know about me, I am *not* against positive punishment or aversive training techniques. I am against them _if_ positive reward or operant techniques haven't been tried first. If operant conditioning has failed to produce results, I have no problem employing aversive techniques. My problem is when trainers go aversive first.

I think a collar correction would work fine here. My concern is having to have a tab on her since my main goal is weave pole training right now. Maybe I will just try the "lift the collar" thing. So is this lifting to the point of choking, or is it just touching the collar? That is the part that is unclear to me.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Some trains of thought for bite work dogs is that choking the out creates a stronger desire to want to hold on tighter next time.

PERSONALLY speaking, since I'm not training a bite work dog at the moment, I prefer a sharp out. I usually work Dante off lead (at home, sometimes at training depending on what we're doing) but will sometimes have his prong on for a quick correction if a need it, and at times a tab from it. So to answer the question, in your case, I would do the prong vs a flat collar for a better correction, and leave a short tab on it, 6 inches or so. A piece of rope would easily suffice for your purposes.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

wildo said:


> BTW- despite what you _think_ you know about me, I am *not* against positive punishment or aversive training techniques. I am against them _if_ positive reward or operant techniques haven't been tried first. If operant conditioning has failed to produce results, I have no problem employing aversive techniques. My problem is when trainers go aversive first.
> 
> I think a collar correction would work fine here. My concern is having to have a tab on her since my main goal is weave pole training right now. Maybe I will just try the "lift the collar" thing. So is this lifting to the point of choking, or is it just touching the collar? That is the part that is unclear to me.


No offense was intended by that - everyone has different methods they use and stand by.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I found what works for Karlo.....tell him to "hold" and he spits it out. Great for my dumbell retrieve training 
frustration on both sides!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Since you are doing agility, I would not use the Out command for releasing the toy. You might want to save that particular word for when you want to send her away from you towards an obstacle while you hold back for the next one.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

That is something I didn't consider, Jax. However- I haven't started training a "move out away from me" command, so I could always just use a different word for that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Willy I think your reasoning is correct. I had the same problem with my 2 year old dog when he was about 8 months old. He LOVED his toys and loved to tug and fetch but at first, his MO was to do his lap and then want to run a ways away and just chew on the toy or play keep-away with me.

First, I worked a combination of having two of the same toys. This was my attempt at teaching the dog that the game revolves around ME having the toy, not him. The toy he has becomes "dead" because the one *I* have is WAY more alive and exciting.

At the same time, I put a long line on him and would "reel" him back to me. After a week or so, I actually would do quick little pop-pop-pops on that line. Not really corrections but just a "hey hey hey you get back here so we can have more fun!" kind of pop, if that makes sense. I don't like constant leash pressure in any context; I prefer quick pops rather than dragging the dog back, that way you can instantly stop popping once the dog makes a choice to keep coming back on his own (at which time you throw him a party).

I will say though that with my particular dog, I think the concept of being fully engaged with ME came with maturity and more time working together and feeling each other out. Using the toy toys and the long line helped give me control over those sessions but what changed for good was when I saw "lightbulb" moments in the dog at certain stages in his life. He went from a dog that would run down a toy and then not want to come back within 50 feet of me to a dog that will work for and play with *anything* I present simply because it came from me (stick, old rag, pinecone....) and also he will get his toy, jump up and push it into me. If it's a ball on a string he will come to me and work so hard to get the string to lie across my hand, lol.

So, don't feel discouraged if it doesn't happen right away. Part of this is age and temperament. My other younger male has always been more "engaged". Interestingly, he learned to "out" his toy in about two minutes and while he REALLY tugs and unloads excess drive and frustration into a toy even moreso than the dog I was talking about before, he outs instantly without conflict. I also never had to use the two toy method or the long line. I don't think it was anything I did *better* with this dog, he's just a totally different dog.

ETA: I also do agility and use the words out or aus for outing. My agility word for sending is "go....", so "go jump" or "go tunnel". In Schutzhund I actually say "go 'round!" for the blind search and then eventually slur those words into the formal command of "voran" (fore-ahn).

ETA again: In the context of training weaves and not having a solid out, I would use the collar lift. The nice thing about it is that it actually can build the drive and frustration, so more desire for that toy. To much prong can make the dog conflicted and not sure about how to interact with the toy (unless you have a weird dog like mine that really likes to play-fight with/over the toy and some prong-outs don't make him blink). Basically you just lift the dog right up NOT a jerk or a pop, just lift straight up. Do not pull on the toy, don't even touch it, just let the dog spit it and then kick it out while you set the dog down still holding the collar and snatch it up before the dog does. When I first introduced the out to my younger dog I did pop him with the prong twice (not in a row, two separate reps of "aus") but that's all it took. If it takes prong every time, I would lift instead. If you are using a toy for weaves, focus on weaves. Deal with the out independently.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow- that was a great reply- thanks Lies! I will read over that a number of times no doubt to get all that you said out of it. In the meantime (and though I hate to double post), it seems applicable to post this video of tonight's session here too. That way you guys can see the outting. Not the best video to show her out, but there are a number of attempts on there.

Actually- I won't double post- I'll just point you to my new thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/agility/160792-tonights-2x2-out-session.html


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Hey to me it looks fantastic, both the weaving and the tugging/outing part. You're doing it right. One thing maybe to try is only tug for a second or two, literally. I can hear the dog squeal (leaking drive) and the dog appears to absolutely enjoy that toy as a reward and the tugging. I don't think the tugging needs to happen very long in order to reward the dog; I don't think the dog will go flat. I feel funny saying that b/c my Schutzhund trainer says this to me all the time, and I have the SAME problems with my dog! He has a blast fighting and tugging but really does not need that much interaction in order for it to compute as a reward and motivator. Some dogs need more play than work but some dogs just need a taste of the reward. I would continue making it dead on your leg or lifting the dog off when you are working the 2x2s. I think the other methods mention in this thread (two toys, long line, prong for out, etc) are good to try but I would work that by itself and keep the focus of the weaving on rewarding the weaves just as you are doing in the video.

Fabulous 2x2 work, that is what it is all about.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Now and then when Karlo won't out, I command him to platz(with the tug in his mouth)he's more willing to give it up when in the platz position. Worth a try, because you still make the tug go dead when the dog is in that pose.
I thought the weaves look great! And enthusiastic Pimg is awesome learning happily!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Another thing I do with Nikon, because he can be more hectic with toys (Pan tends to let his drive and frustration build and build as we work and then he will unload into the toy, just clamping down but holding it calm and sitting still; Nikon is about the chase, catch, kill kill kill!) is not always out him at the same point. Sometimes I have him sit or platz and then out. Sometimes I have him sit or platz but he can keep holding the toy while I pet him. If there is conflict in the out and you always ask for it the same way at the same point in the cycle of your training, the dog might just become more hectic. I also appreciate a good fight from the dog, so sometimes even in obedience if the grip is correct and the dog is really fighting me, I'll release the toy and let the dog have another "win".


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I just realized I forgot to comment on your guys' replies to the video clip. More fantastic advice- thanks so much! Lies- it never occurred to me that I didn't need to tug and tug and tug for a long time. She really does expend a LOT of energy tugging real hard like that. I'd much rather her be putting that energy into the weaves. Also, I was throwing the ball WAY to far out. I think I can get more focus from her if I don't make it all about _chasing_ the ball way out there. That seems logical.

Jane- that's a good idea! Sometimes I do make her sit or down while she is still tugging; I have noticed this can cause her to be more likely to release the ball. And thanks for the comments on the video- we are definitely having a fun time training!


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