# Sudden reaction - 100%Recall



## HelenaPog (Jan 7, 2016)

Hello everybody. 

I have 11 months old GSD female, named Kaja. We are doing BH course and we are almost finished. She is one of the best in class, we did some testing and she is suitable for IPO. We are also doing a volunteer work and she is always calm. 

When training in school we have a 100% recall - but we are not playing with dogs, we do the recall in a line, someone is holding your dog and you call the dog... On a walk, if there is no dog around I can have her off leash, she will come to me anytime I want. I give her a big reward, I play with her, release her again that she knows that coming to me is not a punishment ... 

Let's explain some history. When I got her, she wasn't socialized, afraid of everything, after A LOT of socialization, she started trusting the other dogs. We worked on that, she became very obedient, not lunging playfully to other dogs...
So yeah, Kaja was pretty much the perfect dog, except of recall when playing with other dogs, I asked my trainer and he told me to get her on long leash, go play with other dogs and then train the recall.

Today it suddenly got much worse and I am crying while typing this... What the **** just happened? It fells like I have that young puppy again, not knowing what is right or wrong. 

We were on a walk, she was off leash, till I saw a small cavalier dog in front of us and I got her on leash. She came to me, even when she saw the dog and walk on heal no problem, with perfect attention on me. The other owner had his dog off leash, and when the small dog saw Kaja he was fixated on her for couple of seconds ... finally he went after his owner and 'disappeared' behing her and some other objects and trees. I released Kaja, obviously too soon, I trusted her because she didn't do that for about 6 months... And then it happened, the reaction. She smelled the other dog on the floor and ran after him. Owner started yelling on her, kicking her away...

I'm not mad on her or the other owner because of that. It was obviously not his or Kaja's fault, but ONLY MINE! Don't get me wrong, I totally judge myself, cause I am one of the people that has dogs off leash with not trained recall or any basics in general. It was very often that people saw me and decided not to put their dogs on leash ... In my defense, I didn't want that to happen! I ran after Kaja, cause she wasn't in any way responsive to my call. Dogs started to play, but the other owner was so angry, he started calling me something that this forum will obviously censure, telling me to start teaching my dog... I tried to explain that she is going to school and that I am very sorry, I was really trying to make amends cause I would be angry too... And then he kicked Kaja, while cursing him ... and I snapped and attacked him. I give him a slap :/ I don't know what happened to me, I just wanted to protect my dog. If I don't kick her after a reaction like this, who is he, to kick my dog... 

I'm not proud of what I did. I'm not proud on myself cause I trusted Kaja too much.

So I am asking for ANY advice what really happened, cause I don't understand what the **** was going on in Kaja's head. 

Also, how to minimize those kind of reaction and teach Kaja a proper recall, no mater what.


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

If I'm not mistaking, this is absolutely normal - a stage in their life. Kaja is becoming a teenager. Did you listen your parent much when you were in your teens?

I had exactly the same experience. Luckily we were in an off-leash park and his recall used to be 100% - then he went after his playmate that we met on that day and doesn't matter what I tried, he wouldn't come and just looked at me like "yeah, you'll love me anyways and I'm just gonna try this one thing..." turns around and keeps running after that other dog. Needless to say we stopped going to the park (for many reasons actually, mostly - irresponsible owners) until the recall improves.

From what I understand, what you thought was 100% recall - it wasn't that. Kaja was just a puppy who is attached to you and you were making this sound that yielded some happy reward. The time came when teenager curiosity takes over and they want to explore the world while "bending" some rules. 
Don't be hard on her or yourself, just keep practicing recall on the leash (get a 15 or 25' leash). Sit/Stay, walk away, recall - not a bad routine to practice it. Do it everywhere and anywhere. Keep repeating every day many times a day. Work slowly from quieter places and up to where there is a heavy foot traffic with tons of distractions. Keep in mind that they don't have associative thinking like we do. If you practice recall near your house and you do fine, at the end of the street by a different house - it's already a different setting, different to them, and a different kind of distraction. The more variety your introduce to recall, the more reliable it will be. In off-leash parks in our area there is always some smaller fenced in area for training purposes (and for smaller dogs i think). Use something like that to practice recall with other dogs around. Just keep practicing it and you'll get there. Only it will never be 100% full proof, so still be careful and mindful, and always have a backup plan (some SUPER exciting treat, toy, sound and etc.) to get her back if she doesn't respond to the normal recall.

Good luck and keep it all light and fun.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Advise - control yourself - that should help overall. As it stands you can be charged with battery or something similar for hitting the other person. A quick appology and move on. No point in lengthy explanations when someone is angry. So far as your dog - often chasing after them only enhances their tendency to run.  The "moving on" probably would have helped here, too.

However, it looks like you survived, your dog is no worse for it. Recall from engaging with another dog - that's difficult. Prevention here would be the key - that is recall before engagement. But I think you would have had a better response if you had kept moving & kept it light (I have a hunch that recall had some tension in it...)


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## HelenaPog (Jan 7, 2016)

First I must say... I am not an agressive person. This reaction was new too me. I guess I just wanted him to stop kicking Kaja.
So please, I don't want to hear comments like: "Kaja is like that, because you are etc..." 
This is not my usual behavior and so is not Kaja's. We use positive training with collar and leash correction when needed. 




HappyGoLucky said:


> Don't be hard on her or yourself, just keep practicing recall on the leash (get a 15 or 25' leash). Sit/Stay, walk away, recall - not a bad routine to practice it. Do it everywhere and anywhere. Keep repeating every day many times a day. Work slowly from quieter places and up to where there is a heavy foot traffic with tons of distractions. Keep in mind that they don't have associative thinking like we do. If you practice recall near your house and you do fine, at the end of the street by a different house - it's already a different setting, different to them, and a different kind of distraction. The more variety your introduce to recall, the more reliable it will be.


This is how we trained a recall anyway. We did it from the moment I brought her home. I have my 10m leash, and to the moment I wasn't completely sure, that she knows what a recall means in any places, she was on the leash. Then I started trusting her, without leash - except when dogs around, to prevent stuff like that. It never looked like that she'll do something like that, and when I took the leash off, she was obedient, calm, not running after dog backwards. 
To me, she knows what a recall is, she came on her first call. 
I knew we still had problems when playing with other dogs, but I said to myself we're gonna work on that too and that until then, I can't tell myself that is a 100% recall. Now it fells like a step backwards, I'm gonna have her on long leash again. 


As for running after Kaja - I know that you should not calling her aggressively, running after her. I tried to call her calmly, with a toy in my hand, moving backwards, but she was determined to run to this dog. Well then I heard screaming of the other owner, and I ran to the Kaja, to prevent something serious. 

Well, the rest you know. 

Thank you guys for all the comments.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I would forget about it. As long as there are no charges pressed for battery then chalk it up as a learning experience. I wouldn't feel bad for slapping someone who kicked my dog simply because my dog ran towards them and then started playing with his dog. Sounds like the guy was a d**k. I thought my dog had a perfect recall also until recently we were at the place where I got him from as a pup. He was playing with his brother and I tried to call him and he looked at me and ran off. I just waited until he was close enough to grab and called him again. Obviously different circumstances and you didn't have that option. But at least for me I realized the same as you it isn't 100%. Another thing I realized is that since I thought it was 100% I stopped working on it as much as I should have been. So we work on it daily again. Now if I know we're gonna be somewhere where a 100% recall is needed I make him wear his e-collar. With that on his recall is 100% simply because I can enforce it from a distance.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I'm so sorry his happened to you and Kaja! Obviously the gentleman over reacted as well, especially if the dogs were obviously playing and enjoying themselves... Self control is most definitely important, however, someone kicked my dogfor no reason, I cannot guarantee an appropriate response from myself would occur (or maybe it would be appropriate).. Let's be honest, there is not really (wish I had italics) a 100% anything.. There is always a possibility for error which is human/animal.. At 11mos, consistency you once thought was perfect decays a bit as the dog flexes their new independent muscles and thoughts. They too are subject to teenage angst, which is usually at the least appropriate time.. 

Try not to fret. If the gentleman didn't call the police right then, or suddenly have a melt down, he probably realized he had over reacted and might get in trouble (deserved) for kicking your dog. Go back to practicing the recall and stage scenarios that will tempt your youngster and try and proof his obedience. Don't beat yourself up! Everybody and I do mean EVERYBODY makes a poor choice at times, and usually you don't know it was poor until the incident occurs.. Hang in there and take a deep breath and let it go


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm ... to much too soon! Sorry but your over the top reaction to your dog being assaulted ... perfectly normal! That's not where the "problem" lies. The "fault" lay in letting her get into that postilion in the first place.

You expected to much to soon, without proper ground work and proofing. If a dog does not have "absolutely" solid 100% recall, then they should not be off leash, period, end of story! 

The next best thing to a solid recall is a solid "Down" or "Stay!" If you recall your dog the dog has to first ... Stop doing what they are doing??? Turn around and come to you. Lot of "choices??" I train "Stay" and "Down" first, I can "Stop" my dog in his tracks and I go to Him/Her if need be. There is nothing for the dog to "think" about, Stay means Stay and Down means Down! 


I work on recall as an aside. And they stay on a long line "until" they have a Solid Recall. Training a Down /Stay looks like this:






Train that, do that on a long line, do random Stays, then Downs. Add distractions, train "Place" to "Proof" with "distractions." Or there is the "KMODT" you can get the Book on Amazon. Fully off leash trained in 10 to 12 weeks. I can't give a time line myself for "off leash" as it's something I never concerned myself with?? 


The Koehler Method of Dog Training, koehlerdogtraining.com Home


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## HelenaPog (Jan 7, 2016)

Chip HELLO again <3


Kaja knows how to stay in standing position and lie down position. We can run or walk slowly, I can just say DOWN and she will instantly lie down and I can pass by without looking at her or stopping. No mater if there is a distraction. She can lie down no problem up to 10 minutes, even if I'm not near her, she will not get up and run to other dogs, even if they walk pass her. We train this daily with no problems. 
So if I 'calm her' down before her reaction, she is perfectly fine and obedient. So thank you for the video, but I don't think I need it, cause Kaja knows how to do that. I can do a video if you want to. But I'll tried to do that with recall combination as you suggested.

Why is Kaja's reaction a surprise to me? Before yesterday I could say that she had a very good progress on self control. 
If I do everything right, before this reaction, Kaja will NOT snap like that. She had that problem when she was younger, it was driving me crazy (you must remember ), but after some proper training, those reactions stopped. She can see the dog and before she starts running to it, she will come to me when I ask, momentarily. So problems starts, when she starts RUNNING! Then she don't hear anything.

Problem is that I don't know why she turned and started running to the other dog. This is the first thing it is not clear to me... I released her soooo many times, when the dog was behind us, she could even see the dog and not run to it... Why now? I can't figure I out, why was this situation so different, that she needed to in that second, run to the other dog. What did I do wrong?

As for second question - How to stop her, when she is already running, cause NOTHING works when she is already stalking the prey. I believe, that in this moment, I can say COME, STAY, DOWN ... and she would not listen to me. The pray drive seems to be too much for her. So if I say in other way - if she'll see a cat and start running to her... HOW TO STOP HER when running? Cause she can see a cat, and not react, I say heal if she is near me or come if she walks away from me, and everything will be ok. If I let her stalk the pray, there is no way, she would turn and come to me. 




As for too much too soon, everything was perfectly fine for 6 months. When do you think is not too soon, to not have this kind of reactions? I will have her on leash every second, cause I don't trust her anymore.


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## HelenaPog (Jan 7, 2016)

Oh and also - she didn't even looked excited to see the other dog. She had a perfect heal position, her attention was on me. The moment I released her, bam, she smelled something and started running like crazy.


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## Augustine (Nov 22, 2014)

It's sad that a person should even have to worry about being charged with anything over a frickin' *slap*. If someone started kicking my dogs, I'd gladly return the favor. People often forget that "treat people how you want to be treated" goes both ways; if someone acts like a jerk, they deserve to be treated as such. You definitely did not overstep.

..Anyway, as the previous posters have said, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it too much. You clearly know you made a mistake and have no problems owning up to it, which is more than I can say for most owners I see. Everyone and their mother has made some kind of mistake here or there at some point. We're only human after all.

Good luck with your dog.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

This forum is so funny sometimes. So many threads on what to do if a dog comes after your GSD regarding using physical force to prevent the dog from reaching yours, but when an owner of a small dog uses physical force to keep a Shepherd away, it's not allowed? I know how my shepherds play and I wouldn't want a strange one playing with my Yorkie that way,things can escalate in a heartbeat so I ( like the OP) don't blame the other owner at all. And if a stranger slapped me, yes I would consider it a reason to call the police. Just know that you need to continue training for this, and don't trust any of your commands to be 100percent for a while. I like that you took ownership it's have hard to admit errors. talk to your trainer, live help is much better than the internet.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

ksotto333 said:


> This forum is so funny sometimes. So many threads on what to do if a dog comes after your GSD regarding using physical force to prevent the dog from reaching yours, but when an owner of a small dog uses physical force to keep a Shepherd away, it's not allowed? I know how my shepherds play and I wouldn't want a strange one playing with my Yorkie that way,things can escalate in a heartbeat so I ( like the OP) don't blame the other owner at all. And if a stranger slapped me, yes I would consider it a reason to call the police. Just know that you need to continue training for this, and don't trust any of your commands to be 100percent for a while. I like that you took ownership it's have hard to admit errors. talk to your trainer, live help is much better than the internet.


On my phone, so can't "like". But this.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

May I ask,

What your dog did when said person started kicking your dog?
What your dog did when you were in physical contact with a person who had just kicked your dog?

More training - More training - More training! Do you have people with dogs that you know that are willing to help you train in this area that won't kick your dog or verbally attack you? If so do it...


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I don't have a problem with kicking a dog if he is attacking my dog.. But when the OP was profusely apologizing WHILE she proactively was getting her dog who wasn't hurting, but playing (and it seemed like I read the other dog was playing too) and the person kicks the dog.. Then yes, I have a problem with that... I have small dogs in the house and if I had to defend my dog due to an aggressive dog I will do what I have to do... Different situation with the OP then that.. Sounds like this guy was just irked that a dog was off leash and perhaps affecting the obedience of his dog.. An understandable irk, but not worthy of a kick...

Of course I wasn't there, but from the tone of the posts of the OP, if her dog was being aggressive to the other dog I don't think she would have been upset t the man kicking her dog to defend his.. This seemed an after the fact and a cheap shot... Just my thoughts


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## jaudlee (Mar 28, 2013)

OP.... So the guy's dog was off leash as well??? That (at least in my city) makes both people at fault. There was not a dog attack, they were simply playing. If my dog ran to another dog off leash and started PLAYING and then the man kicked my dog, I would have more than slapped the man. A swift kick to the nuts would have been the least lol DONT FEEL BAD OR DOWN UPON YOURSELF! he was just as in the wrong. Enjoy your day and go give your pup a hug for me!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ipopro said:


> May I ask,
> 
> What your dog did when said person started kicking your dog?
> What your dog did when you were in physical contact with a person who had just kicked your dog?
> ...


LOL outstanding ... first time I've ever seen that in print! :laugh2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ksotto333 said:


> This forum is so funny sometimes. So many threads on what to do if a dog comes after your GSD regarding using physical force to prevent the dog from reaching yours, but when an owner of a small dog uses physical force to keep a Shepherd away, it's not allowed? I know how my shepherds play and I wouldn't want a strange one playing with my Yorkie that way,things can escalate in a heartbeat so I ( like the OP) don't blame the other owner at all. And if a stranger slapped me, yes I would consider it a reason to call the police. Just know that you need to continue training for this, and don't trust any of your commands to be 100percent for a while. I like that you took ownership it's have hard to admit errors. talk to your trainer, live help is much better than the internet.


Well ... "this" is an odd situation?? 

The other "owner" escalated it by basically freaking out?? You can't really fault JQP for not knowing dogs?? Big dog little dog encounters frequently end badly and that is what the "Slappie" thought he was seeing???

I had an encounter with those two freaking "Poodles" I've complained of in the past.

Bum rushed "Rocky" and I from across the street. Before I could do anything both of them were on us??? Rocky was on leash and he knew something was not right here??

In nine years he's never been accosted by unknow dogs. This time however they were on us in a flash?? I had no option but to drop the leash to de-escalate!

I was pretty ticked off but the dogs were not threats and I did not kick the crap out of them! The first decided to leave of his own accord early on. The remaining dog did enough prolonged butt sniffing to finally get Rocky agitated. I had to finally grab Rocky and at that point the other owner who was standing there across the street with his thumb up his butt (sounds uncomfortable???) ... decided to get his remaining freaking dog! 

Those annoying A-Hole dogs chose the right target ie "hey that guy looks pretty dog savvy?? I bet we can pull this off without getting the crap kicked out of us??? Those dogs were right about me. The OP's dog was wrong about that owner??

All that owner saw was a big dog coming at his and he said ... I'm gonna unload on him!! With the wrong dog ... he could have easily "escalated the situation??" 

The best defense against the "unexpected" is a well trained dog ... which the OP assumed she had ...but as demonstrated ..."clearly not??" 

The dog got "focused" on the target and "ignored" commands so no recall under those circumstances ... not a surprise

Crap happens ....figuring out why "that" happened is the real question here??


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Crap happens ....figuring out why "that" happened is the real question here?? 

I think being an 11mos old is part answer to that question, lol.. 

Crap does happen. Our job is tor prevent it as much as is possible. Reality is, crap happens even to the best dog at the oddest moments.. Why? Because they are dog and it made sense to them at the time.. I find it hard to articulate why I sometimes do dumb stuff, lol! 

In the end, practice, proof, practice, proof.. Rinse, repeat.. Forever.. Training and proofing never stops, but it gets more consistent as the dog leaves adolescent /teenage angst and moves into more adult mentality..


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

HelenaPog said:


> Chip HELLO again <3
> 
> 
> *Kaja knows how to stay in standing position and lie down position. We can run or walk slowly, I can just say DOWN and she will instantly lie down and I can pass by without looking at her or stopping. No mater if there is a distraction.* She can lie down no problem up to 10 minutes, even if I'm not near her, she will not get up and run to other dogs, even if they walk pass her. We train this daily with no problems.
> ...


First part in bold:
It's not that it's "no matter if there is a distraction". I think this is the point that you are missing. True, there are distractions around, but nothing new to her that's why you have all her attention. If there is something new and very appealing - rest assured that Kaja will go after that. That's exactly why you shouldn't assume that the training is over and she "knows" commands. Not until she is much older and has seen it all (so to speak).

Second part in bold:
I wouldn't say that you did something wrong, you just assumed that she is perfect. They are animals, they don't speak our language and they have instincts. Maybe the dog has some new scent that she never smelled before. Maybe the dog's owner had some smell on him. At that distance scent is probably the only thing that made her run after the other dog. 
Again, until she is much older and your recall is VERY reliable (notice - not 100%, but very) with a backup emergency recall, I wouldn't risk letting my baby off the leash. Next time there could be a bike or a car between the new enticing smell and you, and god forbid she may get injured as the result. 


Third part in bold:
A backup recall? Train it with some super tasty treats that she gets ONLY when this emergency word is used and she comes. Even then may not be very reliable is the attention is already locked on the target (as you pointed out). When you see potential distractions around you, watch Kaja closer and her body language. If you notice it stiffened up - distract her before she locks on the target. This is one of the things that bugs me about off leash parks when we used to go - so many owners I see either talking to each other or staring at their phones. No, we should be there for them and watch them all the time. So many dog fights could have been avoided. It's just like with little children - mostly kids get hurt when parents don't pay attention and gossip around.

That's just my 2 cents

Sounds like you are doing everything right in training, just having high-ish expectations and a tiny bit too much trust maybe? 
I just started taking private lessons with mine and will be working hard towards a well-controlled off-leash heel, but I don't know if I'll ever be comfortable enough to let my baby off the leash where there could be new distractions. He is just too precious to me to risk either an abusive psycho human being who may hit him for no good reason, or being hit by something, or run into a pothole or w/e. Until he is very old and just likes walking ))


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

HappyGoLucky said:


> First part in bold:
> It's not that it's "no matter if there is a distraction". I think this is the point that you are missing. True, there are distractions around, but nothing new to her that's why you have all her attention. If there is something new and very appealing - rest assured that Kaja will go after that. That's exactly why you shouldn't assume that the training is over and she "knows" commands. Not until she is much older and has seen it all (so to speak).
> 
> Second part in bold:
> ...


Most likely "too much too soon does sum it up?? 

KMODT (Koehler Method of Dog Training) is the only thing I am aware of that guarantees off leash compliance in a set amount of time??

Long line, short line, no line kinda thing. Rocky goes with me off leash pretty much all the time, not really sure how I did that?? 

Heck we trade off in taking point on walks. He'll stop and step to the side and let me lead ... he luv's doing that in Rattlesnake country ... so I guess no need for Rattlesnake avoidance classes for him. He knows how to make "Good Choices." >


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

As everyone said, dogs will be dogs, stuff happens. Learn from mistakes and move on. 

What I've found is I'm not always super smart when something sudden happens. The other day I was at an empty trail head letting my dogs out of the car for a hike when I saw them looking at something and a man walking a very reactive GSD popped into view. My first words were probably a garbled. bhlmm. I wasn't "prepared", I was looking at a map and thinking about my route, not focused on my dogs or the trail like I usually am when out with the dogs. 

But my dogs are better at this drill than I am. Two came automatically, and the rest ran to me as soon as I came to my senses and called "here". None of them approached the strange dog. I then had them sit and stay until the shepherd was out of sight. I was proud of my dogs and ashamed of my moment of confusion. 

But it took some focused work to get here. Not a lot of hours, but some clear communication using an e-collar in a way that does not make me reliant on pressing a button for compliance. Because, again, in an emergency I'll probably yell something like "here" or "hey" or "no" rather than be ready to fumble for a remote and press a bunch of buttons in quick succession. 

Mistakes happen! The key is not allowing them to happen repeatedly and training to avoid a similar issue. 

I went through a whole lot of positive only training, long line stuff, whistle work, really reliable recall manuals, but landed on the e-collar because I need both reliability and freedom for my dogs. It may not be the choice for everyone and it may not be necessary for everyone. Chip, for example, uses a slip-lead to the same result. 

The key is introducing clarity to the recall or training and planning a course of action in an emergency scenario so you are likely to keep your head and use your training when faced with an "oops" moment. Learning to read your dog so you can correct almost as soon as the dog starts thinking about a chase, etc. help a lot as far as timing and clarity. 

Also be very consistent. If you start from a young age correcting a dog for chasing or barking at strangers, etc. you can avoid doing much formal training in future around that as it'll be ingrained pretty strongly in the dog not to chase, etc. But even at older ages you can work toward that level of compliance. It just can be a bit more difficult. 

As for slapping the guy, I don't think Slovenia is as sue-happy as USA, so I'm guessing you're in the clear. Around here, I'd be a bit careful escalating a dog issue to a human issue. But, results would vary based on the gender and relative size of the parties involved. Most men won't pursue action against a smaller woman for a slap.


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Most likely "too much too soon does sum it up??
> 
> KMODT (Koehler Method of Dog Training) is the only thing I am aware of that guarantees off leash compliance in a set amount of time??
> 
> ...


You are very brave That's actually good that you have all his attention - less chances of him even being tempted by some other distraction. But until having that devoted attention, I won't let mine off leash (unless gated, of course) - by taking my pup in, his safety is one of my responsibilities. And unless I can guarantee that, I'll hold off on the off leash thing until he is much older


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> .....
> As for slapping the guy, I don't think Slovenia is as sue-happy as USA....


this made me chuckle.. lol. I don't think there is any country as sue-happy as the States. One of the guys I used to play pool with told me the story once. He was at a poolhall in Banff, and he is a joker kinda guy (loves to entertain, tell jokes, goof around). His opponent scratched so that one of the balls hit off the table and on the floor. The friend (naturally, being the funny guy) grabs his ankle and starts saying "oh my foot! my foot!". One of the other guys comes to him, gives him his business card and says "Hi, My name is so and so, I'm a lawyer and can provide my services if you decide to sue the pool hall". Needless to say he was a visitor from the States. 

Other than that yes, like everyone keeps saying - dogs will be dogs, and it's our responsibility to find ways to communicate with them clearly and, above all, provide them with a safe environment.


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## HelenaPog (Jan 7, 2016)

Well, before I started typing this post, I asked myself :"Do I wanna tell the truth?" Because some people will just see the attack thing ... and obviously I'll be criticized. 

1.) I don't attack guys on daily basis.
2) I don't approve that dogs run to other dogs and I would be angry too. But if everything is ok, if the owner would run like crazy to get the dog, apologizing almost in tears ... I would consider if being a jerk or just telling :"Keep him on leash, cause his self control isn't perfect" and walk away. 
3) If anyone would be kicking my dog, after seeing that dogs are playing, after putting a leash on my dog when your dog is still off leash, playing with my dog and when you insult me it is actually YOUR dog that's not under control ... then I will kick and slap faces if I need to... I DON'T HIT MY DOG no mater what and nobody on this bloody earth, is allowed to. Kick me, call me anything you want, but don't touch my dog. It's not dog's fault anyway. It's was only MINE! And I was sorry the second I saw what Kaja did, I was sorry I trusted too much and expecting too much from an 11 months old GSD. 


As for training - I will train my dog even more that's for sure. I'm not the one who forgets mistakes. I'm the one who learned from them and WILL FIX them as soon as possible. On Monday I have a training session with my trainer, he is a special trainer for police German shepherd and other sports dog, so OBVIOUSLY I wont just complain on the internet, ask complete strangers for helf and than do nothing. I will turn for help to the person I can actually call a trainer... But still I asked you guys, more stories - more examples and methods how to fix this problem. I am training her from the moment I got her, if you remember I wrote that she is currently training BH and she is one of the candidates for IPO. I don't have a dog as a souvenir. I will work with her to the moment I can be proud and my dog will be happy in a calm state of mind (and obviously to the moment our ways sadly separate). 

I would like to thank mostly HappyGoLucky, Chip and Hineni7 and many others for their answers - that actually are one of possible solutions.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

HelenaPog said:


> some people will just see the attack thing ... and obviously I'll be criticized.


 Aww heck there are always gonna be some people! 

Most likely "everyone" on here who has anything worth saying ,, has gotten beat up on here at some point?? I'm certainly speaking from experience there! 

So open forum or not ... as my guy says .... "don't like the haters beat you down!"

It's a good thread and sharing experiences is what it's all about! We would not learn much if the only stories on here were *"we went to the Dog Park today and nothing bad happened." *Or for me *"Rocky and I went for a walk today ...no stray dog encounters we ignored five people. He did great."* 
Good for me but not really noteworthy these days for him. 

Sure most likely not your best moment but for lots of us, we view your situation as "extreme" provocation!

As we say in Boxer land ... Don't worry be happy!:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> As everyone said, dogs will be dogs, stuff happens. Learn from mistakes and move on.
> 
> What I've found is I'm not always super smart when something sudden happens. The other day I was at an empty trail head letting my dogs out of the car for a hike when I saw them looking at something and a man walking a very reactive GSD popped into view. My first words were probably a garbled. bhlmm. I wasn't "prepared", I was looking at a map and thinking about my route, not focused on my dogs or the trail like I usually am when out with the dogs.
> 
> ...


All well put thanks for additional insight here and while the E-Collar is not my thing .. the part in bold is interesting??

And yes even the most vigilant of us can get taken by surprise! Usually accompanied by a surge of adrenaline! A well trained dog and luck ... can help us overcome a slip in concentrant.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

HappyGoLucky said:


> You are very brave That's actually good that you have all his attention - less chances of him even being tempted by some other distraction. But until having that devoted attention, I won't let mine off leash (unless gated, of course) - by taking my pup in, his safety is one of my responsibilities. And unless I can guarantee that, I'll hold off on the off leash thing until he is much older


Aww "Rocky" and I had a very bumpy road together. But he stepped up and came to my assist unbidden a long time ago, while we were working on the bonding thing. Another story at any rate he proved to me he made "good choices" so he earned my trust. 

My other two and American Band Dawg and especially my Boxer. Not so much, they were allowed to run hog wild in the open desert.
But on neighborhood walks no especially my Boxer.

I was a helicopter dad with her. Not really fair I suppose?? She to was well trained I just couldn't do it?? I was just never sure of what the heck she was thinking ... if anything?? 

With Rocky my GSD I feel I understand where his head is, maybe Struddells head had to much space??


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Being charged with assault is not being sued. It is a criminal offense, not a civil one. It would be a civil one if the person hit were suing for monetary damages, not pressing charges with the civil authority (aka police). The person being charged would be the one needing a lawyer. Square that one up and consider avoiding striking someone in anger.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Helena,
Did your dog jump on him or his dog? If so, as much as I'd hate to see that happen, I can understand his response. If not, sounds like he got off easy with a slap as I'd hospitalize someone who kicked my dog repeatedly just because she got in his space.
As you know, your bad as she wasn't under leash or voice control. She's a puppy/teenager as is mine. Can't trust 'em. I started using and e-collar and it works, but I don't know if it's 100% reliable. 
Almost every dog owner, including me, has had a bad experience with other dogs and people. I'm sure you'll learn from the experience and the anger will pass.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

HelenaPog said:


> Well, before I started typing this post, I asked myself :"Do I wanna tell the truth?" Because some people will just see the attack thing ... and obviously I'll be criticized.
> 
> 1.) I don't attack guys on daily basis.
> 2) I don't approve that dogs run to other dogs and I would be angry too. But if everything is ok, if the owner would run like crazy to get the dog, apologizing almost in tears ... I would consider if being a jerk or just telling :"Keep him on leash, cause his self control isn't perfect" and walk away.
> ...


Will you tell us the truth about what your dog did when he was being kicked and the man was screaming at you and when you slapped the man please?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think the owner of the small dog was worried about it getting hurt. One wrong step from your dog could mean a broken leg for his dog. You have no reason to be angry with a man protecting his dog. How would you feel if... oh, wait a minute.. that's right, you didn't like it when the shoe was put on the other foot.

Your dog is no way ready to be off leash with access to other people's pets, especially ones that she can harm, like this small dog. Keep her on a leash until she is reliable. Remember, poor judgment on your part can be the catalyst for dogs to be banned from parks or for stringent leash laws to be enacted. That is not fair to other owners of dogs who can, and do, control their dogs. 

Did your dog commit some catastrophic infraction? No, but your actions were not socially acceptable under the circumstances either. Shameful!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ipopro said:


> Will you tell us the truth about what your dog did when he was being kicked and the man was screaming at you and when you slapped the man please?


 I have no problem with the events as outlined myself. Her dog was in the wrong, the guy defended his dog in perhaps an inappropriate use of force and she responded in kind.

Far as we know no dogs were harmed in this people dust up ...moving on.


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## HelenaPog (Jan 7, 2016)

I did tell the truth, from the beginning... 2 times till now..


Kaja started running like crazy too the dog, it looked scary that's for sure, she is not a small dog and he had a cavalier. Then Kaja came almost to the dog and went in to a playing position. Other dog was off leash, first a bit afraid and submissive, then after invitation to a game from Kaja, he started playing with her. 

I came to Kaja, put her on leash, other dog was still off leash, jumping at Kaja playfully as I was trying to hold her and apologize to the other owner. I apologize like two or tree times, telling him that he has every right to be angry. Then he said that I need to train my dog, cause obviously my dog is not trained, then I told him I do train her, we go to school and I will try to prevent anything like this in the future and train her even harder...
Then he became angry even more, sort of like because his dog was playing with mine and was not afraid. I think he wanted to make some other speeches about how is his dog afraid and from this anger, Kaja was ON LEASH, ON HEAL WITH ME!!!!!, when he kicked her in her stomach with his leg, then he leaned over and pick his dog up, trying to calm it because his dog wanted to play with mine. When he kicked her he said to me :"Your a bitch and your dog is a retard - in Slovenian language: Prokleta prasica in tvoj glup pes". 

Then I asked him:"Why did you do that", and I slapped him. 
After that he was surprised, I explain that nobody without reason will kick my dog. Then he told me if she ever sees me again with my dog on this path walking, he will call the police and went away. 

In any way, my reaction was wrong and I went to the police myself yesterday. I needed to pay 150€ and police drop charges over me, and I will not be sued, cause I came to the police myself.


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## HelenaPog (Jan 7, 2016)

Anyway I would like to ask an administrator to delete me from this forum.

I must say that from the begging I wanted to be honest with you guys, telling the whole story and I was expecting critics... I tried to tell that I'm ashamed of what I did but I still believe that kicking my dog was not necessary. Kaja wasn't biting anyone or jumping on anyone. 

I just hopped that this topic will be more in a way to help me how to teach my dog something and not telling me all over what I did - cause I know it was wrong. If topic is going to be like that, I don't need to be a member to hear only critics, I'm the worst critic to myself.


I will not answer to this topic anymore. I would like to thank anyway that gave me advice for Kaja. Have a nice day.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I wish you wouldn't leave Helena.. In all truthfulness, you are the type of owner that should have a dog andaa GSD at that.. A mistake is made, you take ownership of said mistake which anyone , and probably most everyone has made (outside of maybe slapping someone ), you know more training and proofing is needed and plan on doing it.. Perfect! 

Remember the internet is chaloffull of every type of person and they can alpost ifif they want to... Doesn't mean that there aren't many good peoplhere who want to see your success  Please stay and continue to contribute.. Ignore the haters


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think the owner of the small dog was worried about it getting hurt. One wrong step from your dog could mean a broken leg for his dog. You have no reason to be angry with a man protecting his dog. How would you feel if... oh, wait a minute.. that's right, you didn't like it when the shoe was put on the other foot.
> 
> Your dog is no way ready to be off leash with access to other people's pets, especially ones that she can harm, like this small dog. Keep her on a leash until she is reliable. Remember, poor judgment on your part can be the catalyst for dogs to be banned from parks or for stringent leash laws to be enacted. That is not fair to other owners of dogs who can, and do, control their dogs.
> 
> Did your dog commit some catastrophic infraction? No, but your actions were not socially acceptable under the circumstances either. Shameful!


I think many people are missing the point here. HelenaPog knows what she did was not good and no need to focus on that and continue shaming. It's far from being supportive and understanding. 
Imho she is asking about Kaja and how to improve her recall and is trying to understand the reasons why she was not listening at the moment in time.

I too hope you don't leave the forum, there is a wealth of information here and everyone is super helpful.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

HelenaPog said:


> I did tell the truth, from the beginning... 2 times till now..
> 
> 
> Kaja started running like crazy too the dog, it looked scary that's for sure, she is not a small dog and he had a cavalier. Then Kaja came almost to the dog and went in to a playing position. Other dog was off leash, first a bit afraid and submissive, then after invitation to a game from Kaja, he started playing with her.
> ...


Sorry I was simply asking what your dogs response was to being kicked. I have no reason not to believe your story not my point at all. 

I wanted to know (your dogs reaction to being kicked) not what you did but what the dog did when it was kicked and when you slapped the person (threat) ie... dog growled, dog whimpered, dog ignored threat, dog pulled away, dog went at the person trying to bite, dog positioned self between myself and the threat etc... etc.... etc... as well as (your dogs reaction to you making physical contact with an obvious threat) in your very close proximity.

Sorry for any confusion! I wish you nothing but the best in your endeavors as well as your dog!:grin2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

HappyGoLucky said:


> I think many people are missing the point here. HelenaPog knows what she did was not good and no need to focus on that and continue shaming. It's far from being supportive and understanding.
> Imho she is asking about Kaja and how to improve her recall and is trying to understand the reasons why she was not listening at the moment in time.
> 
> I too hope you don't leave the forum, there is a wealth of information here and everyone is super helpful.


By her actions and irresponsibility, we all face the real risk of losing more places where we can take our dogs and stricter laws regarding our dogs. I take that personally and will not be supportive and understanding of somebody that is risking what little rights we all have left regarding our dogs. Yeah, I get upset when people do things that may cost me and my dogs.

Regarding her dog, I did offer my advice, keep it on a leash until it is reliable. If I had offered more detailed advice, based on OP's reactions to this poor man with the small dog, I already knew my advice would not be well received by her, and I chose not to elaborate further based on my assumption.

And seriously, if it had been my dog breaking training like that, I would have had no problem with what the man did, and I would hope that just maybe this man may have taught my dog a few consequences for its actions.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

HelenaPog said:


> I did tell the truth, from the beginning... 2 times till now..
> 
> 
> Kaja started running like crazy too the dog, it looked scary that's for sure, she is not a small dog and he had a cavalier. Then Kaja came almost to the dog and went in to a playing position. Other dog was off leash, first a bit afraid and submissive, then after invitation to a game from Kaja, he started playing with her.
> ...


Well here we are, yes your dog and you screwed up.* No dogs harmed, you rectified the situation put your dog on leash and apologized! * The other part then took advantage of your now leashed dog and assaulted him!!

I say he got of easy because given those circumstances ... I'd have given him a:










He so richly deserved, that's why I don't do "Dog Parks" I don't need the hassle. Cause I don't dial 911! Pretty sure LE appreciates my concern cause :










A fully justifiable escalation in my view so :









And uh ... let's not let it happen going forward. No need to cease participation .. heck lots of us have closed threads in our wake.


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

Why do you see it as her being irresponsible? She is working hard and training her dog. She is taking lessons with a trainer said that she wants to learn from this experience. I think you just woke up on the wrong side of the bed and blowing it out of proportions. Just being too selfish here, as in "o my god! Police will knock on my door and will forbid me to take my dogs off leash."
My personal opinion - no dog should ever be off leash where there is exposure to public. You may have confidence (at least some) in your dog(s), but there are plenty of people out there who are either afraid of dogs, or just large breeds, or concerned about their children being near a dog who is off the leash.

I used to love taking mine to off-leash parks until I started seeing the reality of how stupid majority of dog owners are. Some examples: walking a dog on leash in off leash area, bringing a tiny little dog to an off leash area where lots of large breeds are and no clear separation between the sizes, carrying small dogs in arms in an off-leash area, bringing hyper-active and aggressive dog to an off-leash park and claiming that the issue is just with every other dog for getting in his face. And it doesn't even scratch the surface of stupidity. 
Yet you lash out on a person who came to ask you for advise and already admitting to the hitting part and being in the wrong. I'm sorry, but I don't get it and can't support your point of view in this case.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> By her actions and irresponsibility, we all face the real risk of losing more places where we can take our dogs and stricter laws regarding our dogs. I take that personally and will not be supportive and understanding of somebody that is risking what little rights we all have left regarding our dogs. Yeah, I get upset when people do things that may cost me and my dogs.
> 
> Regarding her dog, I did offer my advice, keep it on a leash until it is reliable. If I had offered more detailed advice, based on OP's reactions to this poor man with the small dog, I already knew my advice would not be well received by her, and I chose not to elaborate further based on my assumption.
> 
> And seriously, if it had been my dog breaking training like that, I would have had no problem with what the man did, and I would hope that just maybe this man may have taught my dog a few consequences for its actions.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

HappyGoLucky said:


> Why do you see it as her being irresponsible? She is working hard and training her dog. She is taking lessons with a trainer said that she wants to learn from this experience. I think you just woke up on the wrong side of the bed and blowing it out of proportions. Just being too selfish here, as in "o my god! Police will knock on my door and will forbid me to take my dogs off leash."
> My personal opinion - no dog should ever be off leash where there is exposure to public. You may have confidence (at least some) in your dog(s), but there are plenty of people out there who are either afraid of dogs, or just large breeds, or concerned about their children being near a dog who is off the leash.
> 
> I used to love taking mine to off-leash parks until I started seeing the reality of how stupid majority of dog owners are. Some examples: walking a dog on leash in off leash area, bringing a tiny little dog to an off leash area where lots of large breeds are and no clear separation between the sizes, carrying small dogs in arms in an off-leash area, bringing hyper-active and aggressive dog to an off-leash park and claiming that the issue is just with every other dog for getting in his face. And it doesn't even scratch the surface of stupidity.
> Yet you lash out on a person who came to ask you for advise and already admitting to the hitting part and being in the wrong. I'm sorry, but I don't get it and can't support your point of view in this case.


Uh oh ...here we go again??

In her defense MAWl was accessing the situation as it was first relayed. It was "someone" else that wanted to "re imagine" the situation and bring up facts not in evidence as it were. 

Upon further "clarification" by the OP we find out that the assault only occurred "after her dog was secured." A fully justifiable "Beat Down ... thus ensued ... in my view. 

Other than that ... I fully agree with your post.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I get charged by off leash but friendly dogs pretty often. I do not kick them or swear at their owners. Just yesterday I was running three of my dogs on leash and two dogs came into the road at us, barking but clearly not interested in attacking us. I waited until their young owners ran out to get their dogs. The owners called out an apology, I said, "that's OK, stuff happens, thanks for grabbing your dogs" and went on my way. I could have been a jerk and sworn at the girls, or told them I was going to call the police, or said they were lucky I didn't hurt their dogs. But why? I try to treat other people how I'd like them to treat me, and stuff happens!

I only aggress toward another dog if it is obviously out to hurt or attack mine. I will back other dogs down, but wouldn't hurt them unless they were out to hurt my dogs or me.

So, yes, Helena should have had her dog on a leash, live and learn. She ran over to apologize and control her dog, did control her dog, and then reacted when the man swore at her, ignored her apologies, and kicked her on-leash dog.

Yes, if the man had kicked her dog before Helena got control of it, I can't fault him. That's fine. But to continue to kick the dog after she was controlled, that is showing very poor temperament in the man, not the dog. Swearing at a woman after she's apologized and controlled her dog? Nah, I can't support that.


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Uh oh ...here we go again??
> 
> In her defense MAWl was accessing the situation as it was first relayed. It was "someone" else that wanted to "re imagine" the situation and bring up facts not in evidence as it were.
> 
> ...


Also often times it can be hard to pass emotions on forums. If we all had the conversation face to face, MAW's comment may have sounded more constructive and less offensive/selfish. And don't get me wrong, I like what MAW posts/advises, and definitely has a lot to offer. It's just in this case I'm on Helen's side.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

HappyGoLucky said:


> Why do you see it as her being irresponsible? She is working hard and training her dog. She is taking lessons with a trainer said that she wants to learn from this experience. I think you just woke up on the wrong side of the bed and blowing it out of proportions. Just being too selfish here, as in "o my god! Police will knock on my door and will forbid me to take my dogs off leash."
> My personal opinion - no dog should ever be off leash where there is exposure to public. You may have confidence (at least some) in your dog(s), but there are plenty of people out there who are either afraid of dogs, or just large breeds, or concerned about their children being near a dog who is off the leash.
> 
> I used to love taking mine to off-leash parks until I started seeing the reality of how stupid majority of dog owners are. Some examples: walking a dog on leash in off leash area, bringing a tiny little dog to an off leash area where lots of large breeds are and no clear separation between the sizes, carrying small dogs in arms in an off-leash area, bringing hyper-active and aggressive dog to an off-leash park and claiming that the issue is just with every other dog for getting in his face. And it doesn't even scratch the surface of stupidity.
> Yet you lash out on a person who came to ask you for advise and already admitting to the hitting part and being in the wrong. I'm sorry, but I don't get it and can't support your point of view in this case.


Who are you to judge me because you can't understand the concept that an out of control off leash dog is the result of an irresponsible owner? 

Who are you to judge that the "majority of dog owners" are "stupid" because they do things differently than you? 

What makes you think I need or want your support of my point of view?


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Who are you to judge me because you can't understand the concept that an out of control off leash dog is the result of an irresponsible owner?
> 
> Who are you to judge that the "majority of dog owners" are "stupid" because they do things differently than you?
> 
> What makes you think I need or want your support of my point of view?


First of all, I'm not trying to make enemies here, and just like YOU, expressing my opinion. 

I'm not judging YOU, just arguing your post. 


I can give you the taste of your own medicine - who are you to tell Helen that she was wrong to let her dog off the leash and who are you to let your dog off leash outside of dedicated off-leash dog parks... But this just back and forth personal attacks that will lead to nowhere and it doesn't help anything or anybody.

And your last point - you sound like a one-way street. So, only what you say is true and correct, and everybody else's opinion doesn't matter if it's not aligned with yours? I think it's self explanatory. 

Have a nice day and sorry I disagreed with you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

HappyGoLucky said:


> Also often times it can be hard to pass emotions on forums. If we all had the conversation face to face, MAW's comment may have sounded more constructive and less offensive/selfish. And don't get me wrong, I like what MAW posts/advises, and definitely has a lot to offer. It's just in this case I'm on Helen's side.



Selfish? Selfish is irresponsible dog owners that create problems for others that have well behaved and / or well trained dogs.

I am no spring chicken, I remember well when dogs were allowed everywhere. I watched as little by little where ALL dog owners lost our privileges as to where we can go with our dogs and what we can do with them, all that due to the actions of a handful of selfish, irresponsible owners.

I advocate to keep our rights, for ALL of us, and even to try to get some of them back. To call me selfish because I can step back and look at the big picture from a point of experience borders on a lack of due thought.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

HappyGoLucky said:


> First of all, I'm not trying to make enemies here, and just like YOU, expressing my opinion.
> 
> I'm not judging YOU, just arguing your post.
> 
> ...


Who are you to give me a taste of my own medicine? I think you will find bickering is a violation of this forum's rules. 

Who am I to tell OP that she was wrong to let her dog off leash, a dog that was not ready to be off leash? I am one of many who stand to lose more rights where our dogs are concerned with each and every infraction by irresponsible dog owners, that includes YOU as one who stands to lose more of your rights too but you are too close minded to see that I am trying to protect your rights as well.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> *I get charged by off leash but friendly dogs pretty often. I do not kick them or swear at their owners. Just yesterday I was running three of my dogs on leash and two dogs came into the road at us, barking but clearly not interested in attacking us. I waited until their young owners ran out to get their dogs. The owners called out an apology, I said, "that's OK, stuff happens, thanks for grabbing your dogs" and went on my way.* I could have been a jerk and sworn at the girls, or told them I was going to call the police, or said they were lucky I didn't hurt their dogs. But why? I try to treat other people how I'd like them to treat me, and stuff happens!
> 
> I only aggress toward another dog if it is obviously out to hurt or attack mine. I will back other dogs down, but wouldn't hurt them unless they were out to hurt my dogs or me.
> 
> ...


LOL outstanding!!! 

You Madam are a true example of how to behave when met with the unexpected "non threats!!" I can only envy your calm demeanor!! I also have never harmed a non threat encounter. :laugh2:

But that's as far as I can, I'm not big on the "issuing" friendly advise think! I tend to view charging out of control dogs as a personal affront!! And even with the worst encounters (two charging dogs, I slipped, "Daddy Down" while defending me ... "I got this ...Rocky stepped up un bid??" No dogs harm, remaining attacker rethought his life's choice and flat disappeared??

But even that freaking tool was met with a "Cold Hard Stare" and an icy "Control your freaking dogs!!" Voice of contempt! Not a friendly advice kinda guy, am I .  

Nonetheless an excellent example of how to behave with non threats are you! A performance worthy of a Houndie!:










Outstanding, we should all strive for that kind of calm demeanor.


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

Like I said, you look like a one-way street: everything you do is right, and if someone disagrees with you, it's wrong. You attack me and Helen without knowing a single thing about either one, yet you call my posts bickering. Helen said that she knows now that it was too soon, learnt from it and will be doing even more training - how do you even call this irresponsible? Don't worry, I learnt my lesson and won't be commenting your posts anymore after this one.

Best of luck in your fight for rights!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

HappyGoLucky said:


> First of all, I'm not trying to make enemies here, and just like YOU, expressing my opinion.
> 
> I'm not judging YOU, just arguing your post.
> 
> ...


Aww man ... can't we all just:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

HappyGoLucky said:


> Like I said, you look like a one-way street: everything you do is right, and if someone disagrees with you, it's wrong. You attack me and Helen without knowing a single thing about either one, yet you call my posts bickering. Helen said that she knows now that it was too soon, learnt from it and will be doing even more training - how do you even call this irresponsible? Don't worry, I learnt my lesson and won't be commenting your posts anymore after this one.
> 
> Best of luck in your fight for rights!


Really? I came to this thread and stated my opinion and did not direct it to you, nor was it about you, and yet you accuse me of attacking you. Tell me how did you derive that conclusion? And no where did I attack OP, I just stated my opinion which was not a feel good response, but an honest one. Your problem with that is.....?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

HappyGoLucky said:


> Best of luck in your fight for rights!


Oh ... that's a good one.


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Aww man ... can't we all just:


PEAS are good!  I like that. :hug::happyboogie:


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Dog gone it! I just wanted to know what the dog did in a threatening environment!:crying:


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Probably nothing mentioniable as the OP took action.. It is only an 11mos old who was in the middle of playing with a dog, so probably shocked it get kicked...


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Probably nothing mentioniable as the OP took action.. It is only an 11mos old who was in the middle of playing with a dog, so probably shocked it get kicked...



Hmmm! I was wondering... and tried like heck to get an answer.. To no avail!

AGE? I have a Bomber son that at 10 months old understood a threat clearly and would have put anyone raising their voice angrily manner towards me or advancing towards me without permission first (10' +/-) etc... etc.... in a instant state of severe kjgfhgfjhgfjggd! He he he he he.... he's an adult now and as good as gold!:|


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Different scenario though.. She was disciplining her dog because he was playing when he should have been obeying, so dog is already in mindset of 'Uh oh, screwed up mom is mad (boy is that a nice dog, I had fun)!' it wasn't like some guy just walked up yelling at her or kicked the dog out of nowhere... But I don't know the dog, it might be a much more laid back dog, or it might not have his defensive mindset yet.. OP felt bad about situation and then got pounced on by a couple of posts, so she wasn't looking to give more food to the wolves, lol (not saying you would have said anything mean).


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> Different scenario though.. She was disciplining her dog because he was playing when he should have been obeying, so dog is already in mindset of 'Uh oh, screwed up mom is mad (boy is that a nice dog, I had fun)!' it wasn't like some guy just walked up yelling at her or kicked the dog out of nowhere... But I don't know the dog, it might be a much more laid back dog, or it might not have his defensive mindset yet.. OP felt bad about situation and then got pounced on by a couple of posts, so she wasn't looking to give more food to the wolves, lol (not saying you would have said anything mean).


Well this ... "sigh," OP is ticked off now because "someone" decide that they did not like the original story as detailed (Not MAWL for the record  ) and they decided to accuse the "OP" of "fabrication!" 

It's a worldwide forum here and I suppose some cultures aren't as thrilled with having "mud" flung at them as we are in "America??"

Apparently "someone" had no real input on why the dog failed to comply?? Far as I could see the "OP' was doing everything right??

Still the dog failed to comply with distractions?? And her observations of the "Dog" wasn't listening?? Are pretty accurate ie *under distractions they (Dogs) can't hear you!
*

A better understanding of "that" by more experienced members would have been helpful to a lot of us. But no ... some "tool" throws a bomb ... we go off topic and no one learns anything. OP takes their ball and goes home (metaphorically speaking) and here we are once again with people who do know what they are doing debating among ourselves. Happens all the time :crazy:


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

The Internet and text in general is tricky.. You can read words with the emotions you are feeling at the moment, which may not be the intent of the poster... Unfortunately, there are those who are very good at roughing up people on the internet just because... The OP was a victim of this... True, I believe Americans are used to the 'mud slinging' a bit more then other nations but it is never nice either way... Unfortunate.. Hope she doesn't leave..


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## J and J M (Sep 20, 2013)

Solely on the fact that the OP is trying to put a BH on the dog and said it is suitable for IPO I can see why someone was asking what the dog did while the owner was in a threatening environment. I don't think anyone doubted the OP they were just looking for more info than what was given.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

As one mod wrote recently, members should expect a positive experience on this forum.

Positive does not equate with all feel good responses or commiserating with a comment in a show of support, regardless of right or wrong.

Fresh eyes, honest opinions, and respectful comments that disagree with either OP or the majority should not be misconstrued as negative, mean or be pounced on by others as some form of evil because some people chose not to take part of any form of engagement that they felt would encourage what they perceive as bad behavior. Doing so would be of no value to anybody.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

J and J M said:


> Solely on the fact that the OP is trying to put a BH on the dog and said it is suitable for IPO I can see why someone was asking what the dog did while the owner was in a threatening environment. I don't think anyone doubted the OP they were just looking for more info than what was given.


To me it was the absolute most important info of the whole discussion. Unfortunately the only information never given.

I could care less if she slapped him or he slapped her or they did this or that. Who's right or who's wrong....

I care about the dog and what the dog did. And we never got that info.. Oh yeah we did. The dog was in Heel.. REALLY!

So sad...


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Agree, MAWL. The point of the forum is to allow for lively discussion, and we certainly don't all need to agree all the time! 

Helena, if you're still here- I found this in my files and thought this might be a useful read for you on how I use the e-collar. http://www.tarheelcanine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Jerry-E-Collar-Article-K9-Cop.pdf

Hope this can help you get where you want with reliability. To be clear, for non-sport stuff, I use the e-collar for only a few specific commands, "here", heel, and to proof the down-stay. I do not actually train a new command with the e-collar and I do not use it for everything by any means. In fact, weeks go by when I don't use e-collar at all. Which is the entire point.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Ipopro - How the dog reacted to a kick is the most important information? I'm sorry but I don't agree. The OP came to get a little support after an emotionally charged event occurred. She thought she had solid recall on a young dog which turned out diffently.. She gets her dog who is playing with the other (off lead) dog and gets control of it, the owner of the other dog who is upset that a big sog is playing with his smaller dog then kicks the OP's dog and she slaps him... How the dog reacts to being kicked does not determine obedience on recall.. In that situation it wouldn't determine if dog is HA either as the kick was uncalled for.. 

To the other poster saying lack of info - I'm not sure where the lack of information (outside of dogs reaction to kick) was /was not given..? She answered all but the last question.. I'm confused


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Ipopro - How the dog reacted to a kick is the most important information? I'm sorry but I don't agree. The OP came to get a little support after an emotionally charged event occurred. She thought she had solid recall on a young dog which turned out diffently.. She gets her dog who is playing with the other (off lead) dog and gets control of it, the owner of the other dog who is upset that a big sog is playing with his smaller dog then kicks the OP's dog and she slaps him... How the dog reacts to being kicked does not determine obedience on recall.. In that situation it wouldn't determine if dog is HA either as the kick was uncalled for..
> 
> To the other poster saying lack of info - I'm not sure where the lack of information (outside of dogs reaction to kick) was /was not given..? She answered all but the last question.. I'm confused



Which part of "To me" did you not understand?

Let me know and I might be able to help you to agree with me that it was the most important piece of information "to me"

Unless you want to simply agree to disagree? I'm good with that..

It's in black and white for all to see. I said "To me" LOL


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ipopro said:


> To me it was the absolute most important info of the whole discussion. Unfortunately the only information never given.
> 
> I could care less if she slapped him or he slapped her or they did this or that. Who's right or who's wrong....
> 
> ...


Well the thing is ... as I am want to say ... these things happen, all the time, off topic discussions, generally speaking I tend to find a lot of value in them ...

Still maybe it's starting to be a bit too much to often??


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

And my question was TO YOU ipopro.. Why was that the most important information? Seriously? This isn't attack it is a question, pure and simple..


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Well the thing is ... as I am want to say ... these things happen, all the time, off topic discussions, generally speaking I tend to find a lot of value in them ...
> 
> Still maybe it's starting to be a bit too much to often??



The dog was in the discussion, the kick was in the discussion, the dog being kicked was part of the discussion...

I can assure you one thing. If someone kicked my dog, the very last thing said person would have to worry about is what I was going to do period.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well the thing is ... as I am want to say ... these things happen, all the time, off topic discussions, generally speaking I tend to find a lot of value in them ...
> 
> Still maybe it's starting to be a bit too much to often??


You really think so?

I find without them is that this forum to easily falls back onto five threads started on what dog food to feed my puppy, five threads on what age to speuter or if they should speuter, five threads on landsharking, and a handful of other old beat up topics that get few views or comments.

It is these off topic threads that seem to bring this forum to life. 

I agree it would be better if a thread could be started to isolate the off topic and run with it, but it just doesn't seem to work that way too often on here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ipopro said:


> Dog gone it! I just wanted to know what the dog did in a threatening environment!:crying:


Me too. It was a pretty tense situation for a young dog.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> And my question was TO YOU ipopro.. Why was that the most important information? Seriously? This isn't attack it is a question, pure and simple..


Well the reason it was the most important "to me" not the most important part of the discussion comments etc... to her or others possibly, is because it would tell me more about the dog and where it's mind is at.

This could have possibly led to answers (in my mind) of some of the other things that transpired during the events as described.

I'm sorry, I didn't see you ask why it was the most important thing "to me" I just read what you typed which was 
"Ipopro - How the dog reacted to a kick is the most important information? I'm sorry but I don't agree."


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## J and J M (Sep 20, 2013)

It looks like the sport people are looking at different things than the pet people. The OP is doing a BH thus sport.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

No worries.. I typed off my phone and may have missed that part in my response.. These type of incidents are how misunderstandings and blow ups occur on the internet, lol

TY for the answer.. I know my girl would not have taken the kick politely (and I don't think slap would have been my response (teeth might have been missing), especially in the situation described. Discernment in a situation like the one the OP was in is necessary and the guy clearly was just irked.. I think the OP had a playful and perhaps chagrined dog once under control and chastised by its owner.. The kick and subsequent no response (that we are aware of) might have been the dog being submissive after the reprimand.. Just my thoughts on the matter.. Still, my girl would not have been overly accepting of someone kicking her for no reason, lol


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> No worries.. I typed off my phone and may have missed that part in my response.. These type of incidents are how misunderstandings and blow ups occur on the internet, lol
> 
> TY for the answer.. I know my girl would not have taken the kick politely (and I don't think slap would have been my response (teeth might have been missing), especially in the situation described. Discernment in a situation like the one the OP was in is necessary and the guy clearly was just irked.. I think the OP had a playful and perhaps chagrined dog once under control and chastised by its owner.. The kick and subsequent no response (that we are aware of) might have been the dog being submissive after the reprimand.. Just my thoughts on the matter.. Still, my girl would not have been overly accepting of someone kicking her for no reason, lol


Trust me I'm not worried in the least.

I do have to ask though, is there ever a reason for a dog to be kicked? You did say "kicking her for no reason" lol lol lol

dang - my cell phone never did that before!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

No, I don't believe there is ever a reason to kick a dog save saving someone's life or another animal being mauled and no other resources are available.. But the context for her reaction and the dogs subdued reaction was my point  If the dog was being aggressive and kicked we all would have understood the defensive act on the guys part.. If the dog without being kicked was aggressive we would have seen other worrisome points to address... Neither happened and it was the 'uncalled for' spontaneous kick that got OP ire up and subsequent reaction.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> No worries.. I typed off my phone and may have missed that part in my response.. These type of incidents are how misunderstandings and blow ups occur on the internet, lol
> 
> TY for the answer.. I know my girl would not have taken the kick politely (and I don't think slap would have been my response (teeth might have been missing), especially in the situation described. Discernment in a situation like the one the OP was in is necessary and the guy clearly was just irked.. I think the OP had a playful and perhaps chagrined dog once under control and chastised by its owner.. The kick and subsequent no response (that we are aware of) might have been the dog being submissive after the reprimand.. Just my thoughts on the matter.. Still, my girl would not have been overly accepting of someone kicking her for no reason, lol


Took me a few minutes with calls shower and all going on.

What you said here was you missed it in your response "typing on your phone" may have caused it to be missed. Well if you missed it in your response does that mean you missed it in reading my comment and disagreeing with me possibly also because of your phone? Or did you see it and just totally disregard it because you disagreed with me?

Think about it. I did and now call BS..


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Really?!? Are you really trying to pick a fight?! Omgosh! I do 100% of all Internet or my phone. I don't have a computer. I said EXACTLY what I meant. Period.. You can call it whatever you please and try to 'read' into it whatever you want to.. Wow... Just when I thought sanity was returning to this thread..


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

It looks like the sport people are looking at different things than the pet people. The OP is doing a BH thus sport.

Interesting thought.. Might be right


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have seen numerous people on this thread trying to pick a fight, ipopro was definitely not one of them.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Really?!? Are you really trying to pick a fight?! Omgosh! I do 100% of all Internet or my phone. I don't have a computer. I said EXACTLY what I meant. Period.. You can call it whatever you please and try to 'read' into it whatever you want to.. Wow... Just when I thought sanity was returning to this thread..


I can only read what you submit. Like I said, I know what's important "to me" not you or anyone else...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

ipopro said:


> I can only read what you submit. Like I said, I know what's important "to me" not you or anyone else...


Agreed, but some people think you should not voice it.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I believe he was with me just now.. Why else would he call BS on a simple error and a civil conversation? If a misunderstanding occurs calling BS is not the way to civilly resolve it, it rather is more like kicking the dog who did nothing wrong  If it wasn't a purposeful goad I will let it rest.. Text can be misinterpreted and I may be wrong..


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

And I clarified what I stated ipopro.. You chose to not believe it. You have that right. But you would be wrong in this case..


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I just came to this late and I'm sorry if the OP has left. First, we must remember she lives in a different country and they have different ways of handling things there, like the fine she had to pay. I doubt we would have a fine in a similar situation. A trainer shoved my puppy up against a wall several months ago in a group setting where there were several dogs and mine was a little antsy. I thought it was way out of line considering what happened, but then my dog did start acting up, so maybe the trainer was right. In the end, my dog was not hurt but I was still somewhat annoyed. Later when we were walking with the trainer outdoors in a crowded setting, my dog ran in front of him and nearly knocked him over, and he gave a light kick to move him back into position. Again, I was not happy, but I saw why he did it. However, we never used the trainer again and are now working with someone else who would never do that. 

In a public setting, I think the man overreacted but he was protecting his dog and it's over now. The OP needs to realize a puppy can seem perfect and still "break." Our first trainer, who was good other than being too physical at times, said it takes a full year for a puppy to be completely proofed, and that is only if you work on a behavior all the time. Our new trainer said something similar, but in a different way. After a year of training on a task like heeling and an emergency down or something else similar to that, if we work with the dog all the time, we can start to be confident that he will always respond the way we want him to. He also said in a new and crowded situation, his dog, whose is always off lead, is on an e collar just in case. He said he never has to use it but he likes knowing it's available in an emergency. I do think we should never assume a puppy or even a young dog maybe up to age 1 1/2 or 2 is completely proofed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I was commenting about the treatment I received for voicing my opinion on this thread where I was pounced on when I mistook this website for being a German Shepherd forum.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You really think so?
> 
> I find without them is that this forum to easily falls back onto five threads started on what dog food to feed my puppy, five threads on what age to speuter or if they should speuter, five threads on landsharking, and a handful of other old beat up topics that get few views or comments.
> 
> ...


No doubt I tend to enjoy the off topic, trends but I don't know time and place perhaps??

And it is great for those of who luv to debate/discuss the various methods/systems/philosophies of dog training. We all know who we are.  

But "here" it's easier to isolate the problem! "Someone" implied the op was not being truthful?? I responded on her behalf and here we are?? Original poster and her original problem gone??

Still "this" thread is not as badly off topic as this one:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...y/644753-im-clueless-whats-happening-her.html

That is a poster that needs a lot of help and dare I say it ... seemed to be getting it and actually making progress. Then that one "owner" wades into the "Dog Park" with the one "unbalanced dog." And ...here we go .... "Dog Fight in the Dog Park" That is why I don't go to them. 

And to be fair I'd have been right in the middle of it but time restraints, so I never got to it. I did not think what he said about "carmspack" was neither fair nor accurate! And has a response ... But that aside ...

If I am JQP and come here for help ... I get find a "Trainer use a Prong" not that there is anything wrong with that kind of advise but "How and Who" ... would be nice. 

And if that part goes over fairly "civilly" the next pothole is "far ranging off topic debates" and usually the only one with no dog in those fights is generally the OP???

I would think JQP having come here for help ...sees these kinda things happen and they say "Screw this ... these people are all nuts.: 










Gentle Paw trainers ...here I come! 

Kinda defeats the point of trying to help??? Just my two cents.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

RE: Off topic. I see how that happens so often. I was offline, read the first few pages here and posted without realizing there were 9 pages. Who has time to read every post to make sure we know where the discussion has gone since the first page? We get off topic because we see something we think is important or more important in a post and we run with it, even if it's not what the OP intended. Or we get frustrated when we try to help an OP and the help isn't appreciated or is criticized by someone. Lastly, we get off topic because we are bored with the original one, or feel it's gone on long enough. 

So, I have a question. Once someone posts something, whose thread is it? Does it belong to the OP who needs an answer? Or does it belong to all of us to do with whatever we want?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Good question.. I think it is the OP's responsibility to keep steering the topic back on track if they need and want continued help.. Otherwise, the thread does get derailed and the OP quits responding... Just my thoughts


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ipopro said:


> The dog was in the discussion, the kick was in the discussion, the dog being kicked was part of the discussion...
> 
> I can assure you one thing. If someone kicked my dog, the very last thing said person would have to worry about is what I was going to do period.


Questioning the veracity of the OP was what set this train off course. And I said "someone" don't know who and I don't care. But in general "I" tend to take people at their word. Perhaps a flaw on my part but it works for me. 

As to how the dog reacted?? Yep that would be a fair question but I'm a pet person so not one that comes to mind for me?? That's why I like to learn from others but "character assassination" is not a part of Dog Trainer. That's all I'm "trying" to say. But then I have heard on here that I am argumentative??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Me too. It was a pretty tense situation for a young dog.


Granted and on topic! I have no idea what my dogs would do if "Daddy decided someone needs a "Beat Down??"

That's why I go with the "Who Pets" approach "Daddy" is a A-Hole filter.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> . But then I have heard on here that I am argumentative??


Just a little.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> RE: Off topic. I see how that happens so often. I was offline, read the first few pages here and posted without realizing there were 9 pages. Who has time to read every post to make sure we know where the discussion has gone since the first page? We get off topic because we see something we think is important or more important in a post and we run with it, even if it's not what the OP intended. Or we get frustrated when we try to help an OP and the help isn't appreciated or is criticized by someone. Lastly, we get off topic because we are bored with the original one, or feel it's gone on long enough.
> 
> So, I have a question. Once someone posts something, whose thread is it? Does it belong to the OP who needs an answer? Or does it belong to all of us to do with whatever we want?


Excellent question about who "owns" the thread once started. I have seen OP's tell others to "get off of my thread", or tell people they don't want their opinions and to quit posting on multiple occassions, or most recently I saw where an exceptionally well respected breeder, IMO, answered an OP's question only to be told thanks, but she was going to wait for a breeder to answer. When OP's have attitudes like that coupled with a lack of people skills should they be allowed to own a thread? Or how about the let's hold hands and sing kumbaya crowds who pander to some injustice, real or imagined, and would just as soon snatch the next guy bald if they dared to point out that just maybe things aren't all warm and fuzzy as portrayed?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Questioning the veracity of the OP was what set this train off course. And I said "someone" don't know who and I don't care. But in general "I" tend to take people at their word. Perhaps a flaw on my part but it works for me.
> 
> As to how the dog reacted?? Yep that would be a fair question but I'm a pet person so not one that comes to mind for me?? That's why I like to learn from others but "character assassination" is not a part of Dog Trainer. That's all I'm "trying" to say. But then I have heard on here that I am argumentative??


Arguementive? You? :grin2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Questioning the veracity of the OP was what set this train off course. And I said "someone" don't know who and I don't care. But in general "I" tend to take people at their word. Perhaps a flaw on my part but it works for me.
> 
> As to how the dog reacted?? Yep that would be a fair question but I'm a pet person so not one that comes to mind for me?? That's why I like to learn from others but "character assassination" is not a part of Dog Trainer. That's all I'm "trying" to say. But then I have heard on here that I am argumentative??


Dr. Phil always says there is his side, her side, and the truth always lies somewhere in the middle. 

But anyhow, I missed who made the comment questioning OP's veracity. With that said, now I have to go back and reread this thread.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Granted and on topic! I have no idea what my dogs would do if "Daddy decided someone needs a "Beat Down??" That's why I go with the "Who Pets" approach "Daddy" is a A-Hole filter. 

Lol! If an all out fight ensued between say, me and someone that attacked, I do wonder if my dog(s) would be savvy enough to jump in the fray and bite the appropriate (I. E. Not me, lol) person.. Already my girl has shown defensive actions when my sister and I were out during winter in the woods. We had just finished an aged track and I was going to start a fire and warm up my sister who had to sit and wait, before we headed back.. Out of nowhere a man starts walking purposefully towards my sister. I was about 75yds off and my girl was loose (my boy too but he has malamute in him and that seems to override his German Shepherd tendencies at times). She barked and I called her to me and started walking back towards the man.. My girl is barking warning barks and the man doesn't even look our way or acknowledge the dog.. As he gets closer to my sister I let my girl go (the boy was loose and close to my sister and barking but not like my girl was).. Probably not my best move but we were rural and alone and the guy showed absolutely no acknowledgement that there were dogs... She ran up behind him and barked. I grabbed her and the man ignored me and the dog and talked to my sister (who is like 21)...he moved a bit closer to her and my girl pulled out of my hands and hit him with both paws on the small of his back.. Now I'm embarrassed and yet still aware of the oddity of the situation and so on guard.. The guy, needless to say, felt the almost 90lb push and decided he would move on after a few moments more 'surveying'... My girl kept eyes on him the whole time and we walked back to the car cautiously... I have no doubt if he had been aggressive she would have acted accordingly.. Something was not' right ' in that situation.. So it is always interesting to see how a dog would react in an environment that is odd or dangerous..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Just a little.


Hmm .... I guess ... I can't really reply ...without .. proving the point?? :grin2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Dr. Phil always says there is his side, her side, and the truth always lies somewhere in the middle.
> 
> But anyhow, I missed who made the comment questioning OP's veracity. With that said, now I have to go back and reread this thread.


Uh oh ... and there you go again! I said, "I wasn't interested in who" ... you could take my lead.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Granted and on topic! I have no idea what my dogs would do if "Daddy decided someone needs a "Beat Down??" That's why I go with the "Who Pets" approach "Daddy" is a A-Hole filter.
> 
> Lol! If an all out fight ensued between say, me and someone that attacked, I do wonder if my dog(s) would be savvy enough to jump in the fray and bite the appropriate (I. E. Not me, lol) person.. Already my girl has shown defensive actions when my sister and I were out during winter in the woods. We had just finished an aged track and I was going to start a fire and warm up my sister who had to sit and wait, before we headed back.. Out of nowhere a man starts walking purposefully towards my sister. I was about 75yds off and my girl was loose (my boy too but he has malamute in him and that seems to override his German Shepherd tendencies at times). She barked and I called her to me and started walking back towards the man.. My girl is barking warning barks and the man doesn't even look our way or acknowledge the dog.. As he gets closer to my sister I let my girl go (the boy was loose and close to my sister and barking but not like my girl was).. Probably not my best move but we were rural and alone and the guy showed absolutely no acknowledgement that there were dogs... She ran up behind him and barked. I grabbed her and the man ignored me and the dog and talked to my sister (who is like 21)...he moved a bit closer to her and my girl pulled out of my hands and hit him with both paws on the small of his back.. Now I'm embarrassed and yet still aware of the oddity of the situation and so on guard.. The guy, needless to say, felt the almost 90lb push and decided he would move on after a few moments more 'surveying'... My girl kept eyes on him the whole time and we walked back to the car cautiously... I have no doubt if he had been aggressive she would have acted accordingly.. Something was not' right ' in that situation.. So it is always interesting to see how a dog would react in an environment that is odd or dangerous..


Are you sure he was dangerous and not maybe autistic or something else? That always worries me, someone who isn't quite 100% in critical thinking skills or capacity might make a decision around my dogs that is interpreted one way but is actually something else.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Hmm .... I guess ... I can't really reply ...without .. proving the point?? :grin2:


I was just having fun. You DID bring it up, you know, and kind of set yourself up for a reply. 0


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hineni7 said:


> It looks like the sport people are looking at different things than the pet people. The OP is doing a BH thus sport.
> 
> Interesting thought.. Might be right


In all honesty, from either perspective the dogs reaction to being kicked is what I'd think most about. Each side may prefer a different reaction, but the reaction and affect afterward would still be something to think about.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Uh oh ... and there you go again! I said, "I wasn't interested in who" ... you could take my lead.


I didn't know it existed until you mentioned it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I was just having fun. You DID bring it up, you know, and kind of set yourself up for a reply. 0


LOL ... no problem you got me. :











:grin2:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Chip, good points.

"Find a trainer, use a prong..." doesn't help many people a whole lot. I tried to find a good trainer a long time ago. It was way out of my budget to go to a good one. Way way out of my budget. Then there are the bad ones, I don't care if they are positive only or so called balanced. A bad trainer is a bad trainer and there are lots out there. 

After doing research, going to clubs, watching videos, seeking a mentor, I train my dogs myself. I go to cookie classes just to expose my dogs to other dogs, but learn nothing from the trainer herself. Which I accept before I sign up.

To get to the nearest IPO club is a one-and-a-half hour drive one-way. Then another $75- $100 to pay for working with the helper, even just on OB, not protection. At this point, that's also out of budget.

My example is not an unusual situation for people to be in, when looking for help with a GSD. 

So someone comes on the forum looking for help, and maybe they also can't afford a trainer, or at least a good one. 

For those people, the people who are really looking to take action and put in the effort, I recommend reading a good basic book on how dogs learn. "Excel-erated Learning" is my go-to.

Then, apply that foundation of knowledge and go train the dog. If people would actually go out and try the training techniques people on here recommend, after reading a basic book like "Excel-erated Learning" and then take video of their training, I think the people who know their stuff on this forum could offer helpful comments.

This is not hard to do, who doesn't have access to a phone or camera with video. Then upload to any video sharing site, like YouTube. Maybe the problem is, people don't really want to put in the time and thought to training? Maybe they want a quick fix? Or are afraid of being criticized?

Here's my issue. Many problems are actually a pretty quick fix, even extreme reactivity- been there. But it takes effort, some reading and thinking, and time put into the dog. It also requires you have a decent relationship with the dog, which does take time, and daily effort. 

There are "naturally gifted" dog trainers, but in general, knowing the basics of how dogs learn helps a lot when figuring out how to best train the dog. And by applying this even totally un-"talented" dog trainers can succeed. Use whatever tools or techniques you want- treat training done right can help many if not most dogs, slip leads are a fine method and work well, prongs, too, e-collars also. 

I'm not a huge fan of "pet people" trying to learn from trainers who always show dogs working "in drive". Nobody needs their dog to walk in a focused heel the entire time, nor do they really want a dog who is fixated on a toy for an entire three mile walk... if that's the kind of dog you have inherently, fine. But the majority of pet people won't have a dog who is genetically predicated for that, nor will have put in the foundation for it, nor will they want it. I like the drive stuff when I want it, but not all the time, and it doesn't really help a whole lot for day-to-day behaviors. 

I think videos of dogs working "in drive" can really intimidate pet people, and thus become the opposite of useful. But I digress...

I'm off topic of "who owns a thread" but, personally, I wish I could see more videos and follow-up on this forum from people who come on here seeking help. Some cases certainly need a professional, good, trainer, but many just need an owner who does some research and actually spends time and effort training their dog. The forum could help people if they'd post video, even keeping their faces and ID's anonymous (not hard).

For example, hanging outside a Wal-mart can be just as effective in working the dog around people as going to a dog class. If done properly with safeguards in place.

I still wonder what ever happened to Ninja, and others who come on here seeking help. Seems far too many people don't really actually want to train their dog, but just want to discuss or seek solace? Maybe those are OK reasons for the forum?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Luvshepherds - yes, I know he wasn't autistic as he talked to my sister and functioned normally, but had that vibe that makes you think (know) something isn't right... We train around mentally disabled people as well so she is familiar and neutral with then.. But a good line of thinking 

Steve - I do agree that the dogs reaction to the kick is important overall. But I think the OP had that last on her mind and was seeking help on the other components... If she hadn't been so distraught about all that had happened I think I too would have asked about the dogs reaction post kick at some point,if not just to see how the dog was after the fact... Hope they are both ok and doing well


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I didn't know it existed until you mentioned it.


Really??? It was a flat out overt attack on one of my "Dawgs" as it were. If I see it, I'll not let it go on challenged.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Chip, good points.
> 
> "Find a trainer, use a prong..." doesn't help many people a whole lot. I tried to find a good trainer a long time ago. It was way out of my budget to go to a good one. Way way out of my budget. Then there are the bad ones, I don't care if they are positive only or so called balanced. A bad trainer is a bad trainer and there are lots out there.
> 
> ...


This is why I wish there not just a like button but also an applause button.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

^^agreed!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> Luvshepherds - yes, I know he wasn't autistic as he talked to my sister and functioned normally, but had that vibe that makes you think (know) something isn't right... We train around mentally disabled people as well so she is familiar and neutral with then.. But a good line of thinking
> 
> Steve - I do agree that the dogs reaction to the kick is important overall. But I think the OP had that last on her mind and was seeking help on the other components... If she hadn't been so distraught about all that had happened I think I too would have asked about the dogs reaction post kick at some point,if not just to see how the dog was after the fact... Hope they are both ok and doing well


Yes the dogs reaction?? Is interesting?? But I think "someone" did nail it, the dog had been chastised by the owner so "muted' response to the subsequent assault?? A lucky break for the kickee in my view.

I can say for a fact that my dog can recognize when Daddy is down?? And actually sigh ... when Daddy is gonna lose it!

That would be when the ... sigh "Pit Derivative" came at us, lack of attention on my part. 

But open garage (one of my rules to look for) blew past his owner snarling and barking aimed at "Rocky???" I don't freaking think so was my response!! Rocky (off leash to the rear) failed to "Stay" as instructed behind me??? But instead stepped next to me, like what's the haps, here?? And smiled in the snarling dogs face and the chargee?? Stopped sat down and smiled back???

My dog knew that "sometimes" ... "Daddy does not make good choices!" "Daddy" was certainly going to escalate that situation! 

Situation defused by my dog! I settled on a "Control your freaking dog verbal response" and stormed off!

But ... say a non "owner chastised dog" in the same position as the "OP" dog kicked by tool, and a non PPD what would the dog do?? I have no idea??


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Really??? It was a flat out overt attack on one of my "Dawgs" as it were. If I see it, I'll not let it go on challenged.


I think the comment was totally misunderstood but perhaps could have been worded better.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Haha Chip! My dogs make better decisions then I do too sometimes.. Smart doggies!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think the comment was totally misunderstood but perhaps could have been worded better.


OP was ticked off ... pretty sure I read the casue of it correctly.


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## Besketball (Apr 27, 2016)

This thread went from helpful to off topic to attempting to be helpful. There isn't much we can do without more information, but this situation is unfortunate and upsetting. It shows us that no dog has 100% recall, unless 10/10 times they'll come right back to you with the biggest of distractions.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Someone hijacked my comment and took it off topic does that count? Grinning...


This place is as crazy as it ever was. Some things never change!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Besketball said:


> This thread went from helpful to off topic to attempting to be helpful. There isn't much we can do without more information, but this situation is unfortunate and upsetting. It shows us that no dog has 100% recall, unless 10/10 times they'll come right back to you with the biggest of distractions.


As far as I know ... KMODT is the only way to guarantee?? 

Mine appeared to have 100% recall?? Not something I ever put them in a position to test out so yeah an "assumption" on my part. But they would "Stay" or "Down" no questions asked.


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## Besketball (Apr 27, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> As far as I know ... KMODT is the only way to guarantee??
> 
> Mine appeared to have 100% recall?? Not something I ever put them in a position to test out so yeah an "assumption" on my part. But they would "Stay" or "Down" no questions asked.


No no, you misunderstood. I'm not attempting to underestimate your dog's recall. I'm simply stating that I wouldn't trust mine in situations like this, simply because I feel like there is always room to improve recall. I should have made myself more clear. Of course there is no way to know for sure if my dog is always doing to listen to me, but the more we practice, the more trust I'll have. I am just upset by the number of owners (NOT OP) that have their dogs off leash and not under control around where I am, and that probably shows. Sorry, once again, didn't intend to offend or aggravate, I should have worded my post differently. :smile2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Besketball said:


> No no, you misunderstood. I'm not attempting to underestimate your dog's recall. I'm simply stating that I wouldn't trust mine in situations like this, simply because I feel like there is always room to improve recall. I should have made myself more clear. Of course there is no way to know for sure if my dog is always doing to listen to me, but the more we practice, the more trust I'll have. I am just upset by the number of owners (NOT OP) that have their dogs off leash and not under control around where I am, and that probably shows. Sorry, once again, didn't intend to offend or aggravate, I should have worded my post differently. :smile2:


Nope no need for concern! I understood ...my fault, I often include my dogs as examples. 

And as I stated I could guarantee a stay or a down at distance with my dogs. Therefore ... they "should" recall??

But I'm kinda of a "lone wolf" kinda guy ... therefore I have no way of actually "proofing" a recall with distractions. 

As the OP did say once dogs get into the zone ... they can't hear you. Struddell my Boxer did that "ONCE" with a rabbit in the desert!

Normally I let my dogs run loose in the desert and Jack Rabbits are everywhere. Nine times out of ten ... the Rabbits break to the North towards the Mountains ...no big deal.

But one time a rabbit broke South towards the HWY???? I parked at least a half mile from the Hwy so I never gave it thought?? But at 30+ mph a Rabbit/Dog combo can eat up that distance pretty fast! I freaked, recall was useless she was just flat gone! 

But apparently the rabbit did ditch her, they "always do" and she circled back to the car! Maybe a Stay or a Down would have worked but I panicked they were fast and no time for a plan B ... Stay or Down.

My solution was vigilance and "NO!!!" So off leash if I saw the rabbit break South (Hwy) the command was "NO!" It stopped her call! Same effect as "Stay or Down" but quicker still ...nothing to think about here for the dog. But you have to be fast and have eyes on the dog before the actual pursuit starts! 

I suppose the actual "problem was no recall but as it had never been a problem in the past .. I focused on "stopping the chase worked out fine. 

And in retrospect "NO" if properly taught, may have worked here also?? Never thought of that until now but to be fair Struddell heard "No" so often, I was concerned she would think that "No" was her name??  

She was always finding something new and different to get into so it became a universal command for her! In contrast ... I don't know if Rocky understand what "No" means??

At anyrate we'er good.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Chip, good points.
> 
> "Find a trainer, use a prong..." doesn't help many people a whole lot. I tried to find a good trainer a long time ago. It was way out of my budget to go to a good one. Way way out of my budget. Then there are the bad ones, I don't care if they are positive only or so called balanced. A bad trainer is a bad trainer and there are lots out there.
> 
> ...


Well excellent post ... yet again! 

Lots of good points only thing I'll comment on is that "solace seekers" usually hang out on FaceBook.


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## Besketball (Apr 27, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Nope no need for concern! I understood ...my fault, I often include my dogs as examples.
> 
> And as I stated I could guarantee a stay or a down at distance with my dogs. Therefore ... they "should" recall??
> 
> ...


Ah, I see what you mean there. Struddell thinking her name was "no" would have been funny.  But all your points are true.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Besketball said:


> Ah, I see what you mean there. Struddell thinking her name was "no" would have been funny.  But all your points are true.


 Well "technically" it was a failure to recall under distractions. 

But as it had never happened before??? I viewed it as a "Prey Drive issue" which I did allow ... just not in that direction, stupid rabbit! :


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

ipopro said:


> Someone hijacked my comment and took it off topic does that count? Grinning...
> 
> 
> This place is as crazy as it ever was. Some things never change!


But so much fun.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

BoxerForum is pretty low on the dogs with aggression threads, my thing?? We have a couple of bad Dawg girls there now. Clear bite risk those two! The females are the Dominant sex in Boxers ... not sure how that happens?? 

But in general (true) Aggressive Boxers maybe one or two every four to six months?? But this place ... dogs with aggression problems ...take a number! 

And yet ... GSD's are what number 2 on the most popular dogs list???

I still don't get that???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> BoxerForum is pretty low on the dogs with aggression threads, my thing?? We have a couple of bad Dawg girls there now. Clear bite risk those two! The females are the Dominant sex in Boxers ... not sure how that happens??
> 
> But in general (true) Aggressive Boxers maybe one or two every four to six months?? But this place ... dogs with aggression problems ...take a number!
> 
> ...


Did you ever think that GSDs may be #2 because of their aggression? I would venture the majority of people that own them have a protection factor in mind when choosing the breed. 

Not everybody loves or wants an in your face, everybody is my friend kind of dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Did you ever think that GSDs may be #2 because of their aggression? I would venture the majority of people that own them have a protection factor in mind when choosing the breed.
> 
> Not everybody loves or wants an in your face, everybody is my friend kind of dog.












Ohhh the devil you say?? :laugh2:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think there are so many aggression threads because people never say "No, Knock that crap off". These dogs are smart. Aggression is SUPPOSED to be in their genetic makeup. And then people that think everything can be trained with a cookie get one. 

A local pet store sold a GSD puppy. People took the 10 week old puppy to the vet to euthanize him for aggression. Yup...10 week old ripping up their jeans. Kill It!

It's that lack of understanding that are the basis of 1/2 these threads.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> I think there are so many aggression threads because people never say "No, Knock that crap off". These dogs are smart. Aggression is SUPPOSED to be in their genetic makeup. And then people that think everything can be trained with a cookie get one.
> 
> A local pet store sold a GSD puppy. People took the 10 week old puppy to the vet to euthanize him for aggression. Yup...10 week old ripping up their jeans. Kill It!
> 
> It's that lack of understanding that are the basis of 1/2 these threads.


Agree, you think it's too much coddling? 
And those people deserve a public shaming.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Well "technically" it was a failure to recall under distractions.
> 
> But as it had never happened before??? I viewed it as a "Prey Drive issue" which I did allow ... just not in that direction, stupid rabbit! :


Has it happened since or have you corrected the matter? If so how and how and what did it take to regain the confidence (with that command) in your relationship with the dog?


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> Agree, you think it's too much coddling?
> And those people deserve a public shaming.


Don't be talking bad about those dog gone animal lovers like that! What's wrong with you///:crying:


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Did you ever think that GSDs may be #2 because of their aggression? I would venture the majority of people that own them have a protection factor in mind when choosing the breed.
> 
> Not everybody loves or wants an in your face, everybody is my friend kind of dog.


I just wanted to add to the statement as it was a very good one, I hope you don't mind.

If they only understood what protection factor truly meant!:laugh2: the world would be such a better place!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cloudpump said:


> Agree, you think it's too much coddling?
> And those people deserve a public shaming.


Yes, to much coddling. 

Nobody deserves a public shaming. 

I was once that person. I wasted years with my girl when what she needed was a good correction and to be taught what was acceptable. It is mortifying to be in public with a dog that is being an asshat. People don't need further humiliation on top of that.

ETA: Oh! You mean the people with the puppy!!! Yeah well...the pet store that sells overpriced BYB puppies to just anyone needs a public shaming. That crappy BY Breeder that sold the puppy to the broker that sold the puppy to the pet store needs a public shaming. The Brokers that are making a ton of money needs a public shaming. Ever seen how those puppies and kittens are transported? Not all make it out alive, or even healthy. How about the politicians that allow puppies to be sold in pet stores yet put more and more legislation on good breeders? You can throw those in there too. Plenty of blame to go around.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Yes, to much coddling.
> 
> Nobody deserves a public shaming.
> 
> ...


Not saying the op, i think that she was trying and emotions got out if hand. We all are human. 
But too many people that purchase a puppy don't understand what they are getting into. They don't understand breed specific traits. Dog aggression and human aggression are foreign terms to them. How many times have you heard blame the, owner not the breed? 

Unfortunately those pet stores are selling digs for a profit. A rather large one at that. Too many politicians they will do what gets them votes. And going after stores that sell "property" isn't high on that list. But going after puppy mills are. 
There is something wrong with society. It seems so many people are wrapped up in public appearance as opposed to living a life with substance. They want people to say what a beautiful dog rather than what a well behaved dog that is or what an amazing example of the breed. 

Sorry for the tangent. Had a shiny object moment. 
I'm curious if that vet put that puppy to sleep? 

And I hope the op can see that opinions are what makes a board like this unique.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wasn't referring to the OP, nor did I think you were. This thread is far past the OP at this point.

No, the vet didn't euthanize the puppy.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Not saying the op, i think that she was trying and emotions got out if hand. We all are human.
> *But too many people that purchase a puppy don't understand what they are getting into. They don't understand breed specific traits. Dog aggression and human aggression are foreign terms to them. How many times have you heard blame the, owner not the breed? *
> 
> Unfortunately those pet stores are selling digs for a profit. A rather large one at that. Too many politicians they will do what gets them votes. And going after stores that sell "property" isn't high on that list. But going after puppy mills are.
> ...


Yep, you can blame most shelters and many rescues for the it is all in how you raise and train them.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I think there are so many aggression threads because people never say "No, Knock that crap off". These dogs are smart. Aggression is SUPPOSED to be in their genetic makeup. And then people that think everything can be trained with a cookie get one.
> 
> A local pet store sold a GSD puppy. People took the 10 week old puppy to the vet to euthanize him for aggression. Yup...10 week old ripping up their jeans. Kill It!
> 
> It's that lack of understanding that are the basis of 1/2 these threads.


 The OP is done with the thread ... PM. 

So it's just us. 

So back on pointe with the off topic discussions ....

Are you freaking kidding me??? But sadly I know you're not. 

I've seen threads in the aggression forums with people with "out of control, 9,10 week olds looking for trainers??? 

SMH


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> Granted and on topic! I have no idea what my dogs would do if "Daddy decided someone needs a "Beat Down??" That's why I go with the "Who Pets" approach "Daddy" is a A-Hole filter.
> 
> Lol! If an all out fight ensued between say, me and someone that attacked, I do wonder if my dog(s) would be savvy enough to jump in the fray and bite the appropriate (I. E. Not me, lol) person.. Already my girl has shown defensive actions when my sister and I were out during winter in the woods. We had just finished an aged track and I was going to start a fire and warm up my sister who had to sit and wait, before we headed back.. Out of nowhere a man starts walking purposefully towards my sister. I was about 75yds off and my girl was loose (my boy too but he has malamute in him and that seems to override his German Shepherd tendencies at times). She barked and I called her to me and started walking back towards the man.. My girl is barking warning barks and the man doesn't even look our way or acknowledge the dog.. As he gets closer to my sister I let my girl go (the boy was loose and close to my sister and barking but not like my girl was).. Probably not my best move but we were rural and alone and the guy showed absolutely no acknowledgement that there were dogs... She ran up behind him and barked. I grabbed her and the man ignored me and the dog and talked to my sister (who is like 21)...he moved a bit closer to her and my girl pulled out of my hands and hit him with both paws on the small of his back.. Now I'm embarrassed and yet still aware of the oddity of the situation and so on guard.. The guy, needless to say, felt the almost 90lb push and decided he would move on after a few moments more 'surveying'... My girl kept eyes on him the whole time and we walked back to the car cautiously... I have no doubt if he had been aggressive she would have acted accordingly.. Something was not' right ' in that situation.. So it is always interesting to see how a dog would react in an environment that is odd or dangerous..


Excellent job in my view! Your dog understands what "normal looks like" and clearly this situation was not it??


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Excellent job in my view! Your dog understands what "normal looks like" and clearly this situation was not it??


Define normal. Is normal somebody with a limp and shaking from palsy? Or a man alone in the woods with a huge backpack on walking towards you? What about a passive person approaching in the deep woods? What about a fisherman deep in the woods down at the river? How about about a person in need of a motorized scooter? Or a very large man with a huge club walking behind? Better yet, what about a person in the bitter cold of winter wandering erratically back and forth on an isolated trail in front of you?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thanks Chip.. I agree, although, it begs to ponder how often we override our dogs correct assessment of a situation in fear of an 'inappropriate' bite or mishap... Since lawsuits are so readily available for the stupidest of reasons to the legit, we often error in caution of an inappropriate action, stopping our dog from reacting in a way that might save our lives, lol... I wonder how many muggings or other happenings might not have occurred if the person didn't 'check' the dog when Joe Blow walked over and the dog responded defensively.. And was correct... Just me pondering the unsolvable, lol..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ipopro said:


> Has it happened since or have you corrected the matter? If so how and how and what did it take to regain the confidence (with that command) in your relationship with the dog?


Affect her confidence?? Struddell??? LOL ... no. 

And nope just that once never happen again. As a matter of fact after that she would freeze and wait a split sec for OK?? Before ripping off Rabbit chasing.

As I said, I routinely let them chase rabbits all the time. Never occurred to me that a Rabbit would run towards the Hwy ... my bad.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Define normal. Is normal somebody with a limp and shaking from palsy? Or a man alone in the woods with a huge backpack on walking towards you? What about a passive person approaching in the deep woods? What about a fisherman deep in the woods down at the river? How about about a person in need of a motorized scooter? Or a very large man with a huge club walking behind? Better yet, what about a person in the bitter cold of winter wandering erratically back and forth on an isolated trail in front of you?


LOL ... still trying. 

None of "that" means "anything" to my dogs. Rocky got proofed the other day at the Quickie Mart! I had him in "Place" and thought I could get him past the door before anyone came out, when I released him??

But it would seem that day, at that time, every animal lover in Dayton was at the store!! So I got trapped into conversations, not once but twice. Rocky off leash stepped three feet to my side and simply waited and observed. 

Finished one conversation ready to move on and then number two. In the middle of the conversation, some chick comes out the store (we were in front but plenty of room) and instead of going behind him (Rocky) with space to spare ... she walks in front of him, with inches to spare! I was not amused!!! Who does that??? But to the point I guess your trying to make?? Nope I did not try and interdict her. I kept talking "Rocky" did fine he was all like "whatever."

Then when we were free to leave, two off duty LE offices step out of a Sheriff's pick up. That I had thought was empty?? Rocky was on his way at that time, and I stepped politely but deftly and swiftly between my dog and some potential Dog Shooting LE officer?? And after that ...finally we were people free. 

Through it all "Rocky" did not care, zero issues, zero reaction from him. No one tried to pet him and I never said "NO." But he's a big GSD and by and large most people seem to keep a respectful distance unbid. Even still he got lots of compliments. 

But he neither seeks or repeals attention ... "nothing" he is completely "people neutral" that's how he was trained and that is "apparently" what he does ... works out fine.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> The OP is done with the thread ... PM.
> 
> So it's just us.
> 
> ...


Doesn't that happen too often? No wonder threads go off topic.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... still trying.
> 
> None of "that" means "anything" to my dogs. Rocky got proofed the other day at the Quickie Mart! I had him in "Place" and thought I could get him past the door before anyone came out, when I released him??
> 
> ...


Hmmm! Not really talking about Rocky. You advised another poster their dog knew what normal looked like, that is why I asked.

But: " and I stepped politely but deftly and swiftly between my dog and some potential Dog Shooting LE officer?? "

You are kidding right? I never met a police officer that did not fuss over my GSDs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Doesn't that happen too often? No wonder threads go off topic.


I guess sometimes it depends on the real reasons why some OPs started a thread.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Mineareworkingline, normal can definitely have various connotations to it, but the situation I described was obviously 'not normal' and both my sister and I had bad vibes, as did the dogs.. My dogs are exposed to odd scenarios all the time as they are SAR dogs, backpacks, odd walking, people in wheelchairs and with canes, helicopters, atvs, snowmobiles, skiers, snowboarders in skii masks, etc and none, zero reaction.. Her response was appropriate imo..


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Maybe her reaction was in response to you and your sister's vibes? You were there and there could have been many subtleties that weren't explained. I don't know.

Anyhow, I did not find the situation you described disturbing and I was just questioning why Chip did.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

She saw him before I did (the dog) and her reaction was sudden and different then any other time.. My sister is a bit naive and at first was oblivious to the situation. After the fact she understood and saw the problem... Agreed, you weren't there and so can't know the full extent of the situation and have to accept at face value what is written in the text.. I think, and I am assuming, Chip read into my intent of the story and could imagine the scenario.. But that is just how I see it, could be wrong..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Hmmm! Not really talking about Rocky. You advised another poster their dog knew what normal looked like, that is why I asked.
> 
> But: " and I stepped politely but deftly and swiftly between my dog and some potential Dog Shooting LE officer?? "
> 
> You are kidding right? I never met a police officer that did not fuss over my GSDs.


Oh by and large anyone that sees my post will see "Who Petz my Puppy or Dog" you pointed out to me that I also added the last paragraph of "Five Golden Rules ..." ie step in front. 

So that's how I do it. People can read it and make there own choices, that's how I do what I do ...anyone can do the same if they choose. 

I'm not a "Pro" but I have worked with a few dogs with different issue, and ultimately yes "genetics" will out. 

If a dog likes people they will still like people, if they don't like people, they still won't like people, if they are afraid of people?? Most likely they will remain afraid of people?? 

In anycase with me ... they are all "people neutral," the only exception was the one ... sigh ... "fearful Boxer" and when someone attempted to "touch him" his response was to press up against me. He was fine at my usual, I don't know you distance. 

But a stranger closing the gap, the dog told me "I am not comfortable with this situation??? Good enough ... "Daddy's" got this! Hand out "Step Back Please" he's in training ... we're outta here, "problem" solved.

No problem no issue. The cop thing ... yeah that's all me. He did not speak to me, for all I know he's just some LE tool, that guns down innocent dogs and says ... I felt under attack! If LE does not want that rip then they need to have "Consequences" for officers that do that. I have a "ZERO" policy for my dogs with people and other dogs. My dogs have never been harmed by people or other dogs. 

My job is to "Protect my dogs" or "dogs under my control," and keep them from "causing harm to others and there dog" and I'm pretty good at it. 

But to be clear and back on point yes I am saying "Who Petz's ..." Structured walks and practice ignoring people ... is how you get to "People Neutral" show them how yo expect them to behave.  

I'm sure there are other ways to get ...but "this" works for me.

And if I must: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> She saw him before I did (the dog) and her reaction was sudden and different then any other time.. My sister is a bit naive and at first was oblivious to the situation. After the fact she understood and saw the problem... Agreed, you weren't there and so can't know the full extent of the situation and have to accept at face value what is written in the text.. I think, and I am assuming, Chip read into my intent of the story and could imagine the scenario.. But that is just how I see it, could be wrong..


And ...your "assumption" would be correct! :laugh2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> No problem no issue. The cop thing ... yeah that's all me. He did not speak to me, for all I know he's just some LE tool, that guns down innocent dogs and says ... I felt under attack! If LE does not want that rip then they need to have "Consequences" for officers that do that. I have a "ZERO" policy for my dogs with people and other dogs. My dogs have never been harmed by people or other dogs.


??? Back to my point. LE shooting dogs happens to be a topic I follow. I am not saying that it never happens that something goes wrong, what I am saying that there is no real threat of a LE shooting a non aggressive or non threatening dog. I was just questioning why you felt that way when I find most LE love my dogs. I find LE are like kids in a candy store when they see WL GSDs.

I was wondering what you have experienced, or know of, to make you think differently.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Yay!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> And ...your "assumption" would be correct! :laugh2:


How was her assumption correct? Did something happen?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Doesn't that happen too often? No wonder threads go off topic.


Well yes it does happen all the time ... usually it tends to start when the OP drops out?? They either find what they need or don't, or get turned off when it starts to boil down to a "Cat Fight" between people who know what they are doing and use different methods to get similar results. 

Still as long as people are "respectful" off topic conversations can be insightful. Least ways that's how I view them. Others are of course free to "respectfully" disagree.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sometimes if threads don't stray off topic, many threads will deteriorate into threads with 25 people repeating the same thing.

Example: 

OP: My dog jumps on people who try to pet it. 

Response: Teach your dog to sit, stay. It can't jump on people when it is in a sit stay. Attach video teaching how to sit, stay.

Rinse and repeat 25 more times.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How was her assumption correct? Did something happen?


 I "assumed" I understood the situation she was laying out, she was uncomfortable at the guys behavior and was not sure.

It seemed to me her dog said "well do I bite the crap out of this guy or not ... I'm not sure ... so I'll do "this." Most likely her dog does not routinely kick people in the back?? Seems like a good call by the dog to me?? The situation was resolved without "conflict" you can't do better than that. The guy was most likely a "creep??" At the least his behavior did not strike "me" as normal?? 

I think Struddell (White Boxer) would have had a problem with that guy and she liked everybody! And by and large she was correct!

For the record ... she only voiced an objection to "people" ie scum once, late at night she was inside on patrol at the window! She exploded like a stick of Dynamite??? I told her to be quite, she did ... I was wrong ... stuff was stolen!! 

Yet another "off topic" discussion.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have a friend who is mentally handicapped as well as a neighbor who lives independently and they do not behave as normal people. That does not make them threats.

I am not saying that is the situation described, I am just saying we really don't know.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

In this case I do know as I talked to the man... He was curt, articulate, but there was an aura about him that had me on edge... You are correct that mentally disabled can move differently, but most discerning people can tell the difference between hostile and different because of a disability (No not all, and yes sometimes it is hard to tell, but not this situation), if they are to. Later we drove by this person getting into his truck and trailer... You don't know me or my capabilities of discernment, so I can see you have difficulty accepting my story at face value. That is ok.. We have had numerous foster kids including disabled, I've worked with altzehemier patients, down syndrome, autistic, biploar and more and I have good judgment.. This was not any of the above, but I don't think I can explain enough or give enough detail to ease your mind on this... I am comfortable with my girls assessment and my own and the situation got no worse, so I guess it is what it is  Hope it never repeats, I don't like unknown variables, lol..


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It is not your story or incident that I question. I was not there, but the bottom line is that nothing happened *to confirm to me* that this was definitely a threat. That doesn't mean it wasn't so or that nothing might not have happened, just that it means nothing happened *to convince me*. My question lies in the confirmation by others who weren't there when the end result was nothing happened.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I understand, and I get where you are coming from.. My perspective on this is that nothing happened because of what my girl did.. She made it clear that any hinky behavior was not going to be tolerated... Anytime a dog growls at night at the shady person walking towards you and then walks the other way due to said growl, most recognize that if this is not common behavior for the dog it was responding to a threat it felt. We don't tend to question it... When in a very rural and isolated area a person walks up to a young girl when the older (and obviously in charge) person who is a distance away and whose dog is barking warning barks (of which are ignored and process to the young lady continues unabated) is ignored, yes, I would see this as unusual and threatening... But that is just my opinion... Anyhow, often bad things are averted because of intercepting actions, doesn't mean bad (or not bad) wouldn't have occurred... Just my thoughts


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sometimes if threads don't stray off topic, many threads will deteriorate into threads with 25 people repeating the same thing.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


Because they read the first post and not the 24 following that say the same thing.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> I understand, and I get where you are coming from.. My perspective on this is that nothing happened because of what my girl did.. She made it clear that any hinky behavior was not going to be tolerated... Anytime a dog growls at night at the shady person walking towards you and then walks the other way due to said growl, most recognize that if this is not common behavior for the dog it was responding to a threat it felt. We don't tend to question it... When in a very rural and isolated area a person walks up to a young girl when the older (and obviously in charge) person who is a distance away and whose dog is barking warning barks (of which are ignored and process to the young lady continues unabated) is ignored, yes, I would see this as unusual and threatening... But that is just my opinion... Anyhow, often bad things are averted because of intercepting actions, doesn't mean bad (or not bad) wouldn't have occurred... Just my thoughts


I didn't realize it was in an isolated rural area. That makes a difference. We have so many people around all the time, that would just never happen here. If someone really was a threat more than one person would know it.

I was trying to figure out what your picture is showing. I'm on mobile and it's very tiny, and looks like something brown on the left and black dogs on the right. Then I realized it's a sideways picture of your dogs. I wish we could have larger images by our names.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Lol! Yeah, my avatar is of my girl as a puppy laying on checkered floor.. I don't know how to reposition, let alone change it as my phone is my computer and I'm limited by what I can do on it.. 

If she had done her reaction in a public setting (one, she wouldn't have been off leash) then I definitely would have had a different reaction to her (like reprimand).. But our out in the boon dog location and zero human populace and, yes, my guard was up


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Because they read the first post and not the 24 following that say the same thing.


Or else they do read it and there isn't nothing much left to say and the thread ends with three posts.

Meantime, many of the good off topic "epic" threads would never happen without people going off topic.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> ??? Back to my point. LE shooting dogs happens to be a topic I follow. I am not saying that it never happens that something goes wrong, what I am saying that there is no real threat of a LE shooting a non aggressive or non threatening dog. I was just questioning why you felt that way when I find most LE love my dogs. I find LE are like kids in a candy store when they see WL GSDs.
> 
> I was wondering what you have experienced, or know of, to make you think differently.


Well even more off topic but ... LE guns down "non threatening dogs" at will quite often. 

That would be "blow back from Pit's gone wild." Yes most likely "Rocky" would get a pass, no doubt. I don't recall seeing any accounts of LE "routinely" gunning down GSD's??? 

Still ... GSD's were not my first "Breed" of choice "Pit's and there derivatives" are and Boxer's?? To the uneducated .... " It looked like a "Pit" to me, I felt threatened!" 

If LE was not doing that on a rather routine basis ... then I could not do this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=le+...9i57j69i64.15219j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


So yes ... for "some" dog owners LE has a "Public Relations Problem." I did not do that they did. I just take notice. Where my dogs are concerned I never "assume" anything. I simply do what I do.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have a friend who is mentally handicapped as well as a neighbor who lives independently and they do not behave as normal people. That does not make them threats.
> 
> I am not saying that is the situation described, I am just saying we really don't know.


As I view it, the people don't have to be normal how I respond does.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well even more off topic but ... LE guns down "non threatening dogs" at will quite often.
> 
> That would be "blow back from Pit's gone wild." Yes most likely "Rocky" would get a pass, no doubt. I don't recall seeing any accounts of LE "routinely" gunning down GSD's???
> 
> ...


Are you sure that it is LE with the public relations problems or is it "some" dog owners?

A friend of mine actually runs a website regarding dogs shot by police and more often than not the dogs are acting aggressive or have been released on the officers.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are you sure that it is LE with the public relations problems or is it "some" dog owners?
> 
> A friend of mine actually runs a website regarding dogs shot by police and more often than not the dogs are acting aggressive or have been released on the officers.


He said, she said ... The Law favors LE ... "I felt threatened" end of story. The cases I read are in that link, most likely?? I don't need to read them again myself ... the dogs are still dead.

I was merely explaining my choice. Not trying to win converts to a casue "if your dog does not look like a Pit" even if badly behaved, most likely he will get the benefit of the doubt??


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Or else they do read it and there isn't nothing much left to say and the thread ends with three posts.
> 
> Meantime, many of the good off topic "epic" threads would never happen without people going off topic.


Said by one of the consistent off topic persons :grin2: (I am, too)


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> Said by one of the consistent off topic persons :grin2: (I am, too)


con·sist·en·cy
kənˈsistənsē/Submit
noun
1.
conformity in the application of something, typically that which is necessary for the sake of logic, accuracy, or fairness.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I think Struddell (White Boxer) would have had a problem with that guy and she liked everybody! And by and large she was correct! For the record ... she only voiced an objection to "people" ie scum once, late at night she was inside on patrol at the window! She exploded like a stick of Dynamite??? I told her to be quite, she did ... I was wrong ... stuff was stolen!! 

Lol! When will we learn, huh? Figure the time we ignore the dog it is THE time we should pay attention.. Hope all was retrieved and nothing to valuable got taken..


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Lol! Yeah, my avatar is of my girl as a puppy laying on checkered floor.. I don't know how to reposition, let alone change it as my phone is my computer and I'm limited by what I can do on it..
> 
> If she had done her reaction in a public setting (one, she wouldn't have been off leash) then I definitely would have had a different reaction to her (like reprimand).. But our out in the boon dog location and zero human populace and, yes, my guard was up


I like your avatar. It's cool! It takes a photo program to turn a photo. I usually go to my computer when I need to do that. There might be an app?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you... I really should post a new pic as she is 2 now, lol.. But I don't think I can change avatars and whatnot on my phone... I like your avatar too.. Nice looking GSD!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Thank you... I really should post a new pic as she is 2 now, lol.. But I don't think I can change avatars and whatnot on my phone... I like your avatar too.. Nice looking GSD!


Thank you.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Definitely! You are welcome


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> I think Struddell (White Boxer) would have had a problem with that guy and she liked everybody! And by and large she was correct! For the record ... she only voiced an objection to "people" ie scum once, late at night she was inside on patrol at the window! She exploded like a stick of Dynamite??? I told her to be quite, she did ... I was wrong ... stuff was stolen!!
> 
> Lol! When will we learn, huh? Figure the time we ignore the dog it is THE time we should pay attention.. Hope all was retrieved and nothing to valuable got taken..


Nope stuff stolen police report made and I asked Struddell to ID the thieves but she was "ticked" and never did ID them. Lesson learned ... I was better at training than I realized. I should have listened to her.


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