# Question for GSD breeders:



## HarleyTheGSD

I love German Shepherds and want to breed them someday (German Show lines or Working lines). I would want a fairly small kennel with no more than 3 dogs. Would this be ok? I know most breeders probably have more dogs than that, but I am planning on going to Veterinary college and won't start breeding until after graduation. I also know that breeding is not at all easy, but I would like to get an idea of what it would take and how to keep a well managed kennel with healthy dogs. I also want to do Schutzhund training with my breeding dogs, so I am considering German Show line or German/Czech Working lines. I already know a lot about each of the lines, but would like some more information from breeders.


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## wolfstraum

The show lines get titled (now IPO) if the breeders follow the SV system....but show line breeders concentrate on showing as a sport activity and parameters for choosing their breeding stock.

Working line breeders will show their dogs to get their show ratings for their koer classing - but do not concentrate on going to conformation shows as a fun activity - they generally are more focused on the training and trials to do the IPO titles and will take dogs to multiple trials as a fun activity...

My working line dogs are a blend of WGWL, DDR, Belgian and recently some Czech....I have young upcoming females of all WGR (Panther), Belgian WGR (Hexe), Belgian DDR WGR (Bengal) and then a Czech, DDR, WGR, Belgian (Kyra and Kira!)....

Is this PC enough???

Lee


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## HarleyTheGSD

Thank you, this information was helpful, but what is your opinion on breeding a German Show line with a Czech Working line? So somewhat "standardizing" the breed. And I know there are probably breeders that have done this already, but I kind of like the idea. Could you still do Schutzhund training with these dogs?


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## martemchik

I would suggest going out and titling a dog first. Seeing all the work that goes into getting a title on a dog, and in a time that would still allow you to breed that dog. Crossing of lines is very questionable, you can't think in the way of "Can you still do x with this dog?" You should think in more, "What are the puppies going to be like?" Remember, most likely only a small percentage of your dogs will go on to be SchH dogs.

There are people on both sides of the fence about crossing lines. Sometimes it works out great (I have a 1/2 west german and 1/2 DDR), other times you have issues because the drives don't balance each other out. There are also many purists that want to keep lines separate.

Not to say you won't have the time to do this, but breeding properly is a huge time commitment. If you really want to be a vet, you'll have a hard time finding the time needed to train and show your dogs. I know that I currently don't have the time to even work mine in SchH (so I don't) and much less think about getting him to the standard of breeding him.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Now that I think about it, I think I like the idea of kepping the different lines seperate, this way you would have distinct traits for each line. After I graduate Vet school and if I realize I don't have the time to breed GSDs, I would like to own a stud dog. Can you only breed a stud dog if you have a breeding program, or can you just buy one as a puppy from a breeder? I know this is risky considering that I wouldn't know if the dog will be fertile or not, or if he will have the qulalities, temperament, and drive I'm looking for.


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## Jack's Dad

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Now that I think about it, I think I like the idea of kepping the different lines seperate, this way you would have distinct traits for each line. After I graduate Vet school and if I realize I don't have the time to breed GSDs, I would like to own a stud dog. Can you only breed a stud dog if you have a breeding program, or can you just buy one as a puppy from a breeder? I know this is risky considering that I wouldn't know if the dog will be fertile or not, or if he will have the qulalities, temperament, and drive I'm looking for.


 There is a thread called Ice Berg Breeders I think Cliffson started it.
Maybe someone can link it for you. Read it all and you will have a much better understanding about how diffficult proper breeding is. 
I am definitely not a breeder but that was a great thread. Lots of information in there.


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## qbchottu

I have some questions for you 
What is your goal as a breeder? What do you think you will do to better the breed? How will your breeding program influence the breed as a whole? What goal are you furthering by owning a stud dog? 

I know a couple people that just own a stud dog, but I wouldn't call that a breeding program. They work with the breeder that actually bred the dog or local broker that imported him to help stud him out to appropriate females.


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## phgsd

Anyone can own a stud dog - but few will want to breed to him unless you put a lot of time into his training and titling, or if you spend a lot of money on a titled dog.

Most people keep show and working lines separate - crossing the two sounds like a good idea in theory but you lose consistency and often end up with the worst of both lines. Crossing the different types of working lines is okay IF you know what you're doing in terms of temperament and drives. The wrong cross could turn out badly but many are crossing the lines with great success.


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## lhczth

When you talk about owning just 3 dogs are you meaning 3 females? A good breeding program is founded on good females. IMO there is little need to keep males when you only have a couple of girls. Far better to take advantage of the vast genetics around the world to build your program. 

If you plan on developing a program and not just buying new females when needed you had better plan on eventually keeping more than 3 dogs. You will need to keep back at least one female from each bitch to continue on with your line. Of course some breeders place their older bitches when they are done breeding which helps keep the population down. 

Just some more things to consider. 

There are people that cross the show with work. They attempt to maintain a very strong bitch line and cross out to good males and then keep the best for the future. You will need to plan on being very picky in your choices and at times maybe not getting what you want. 

As someone said earlier, get some experience first. The more knowledge you have the better able you will be to make educated breeding decisions.


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## HarleyTheGSD

qbchottu said:


> I have some questions for you
> What is your goal as a breeder? What do you think you will do to better the breed? How will your breeding program influence the breed as a whole? What goal are you furthering by owning a stud dog?
> 
> I know a couple people that just own a stud dog, but I wouldn't call that a breeding program. They work with the breeder that actually bred the dog or local broker that imported him to help stud him out to appropriate females.


-My goal as a breeder is to produce dogs with exeptional, loyal temperament, sturdy, well balanced structure, and to provide people with an outstanding, protective family dog or a loyal companion. 
-My breeding program would influence the breed by producing well structured, loyal, protective, hard working, loving dogs and provide resposible dog owners with an amazing companion. 
-By owning a German show line/working line stud dog, I will allow other breeders to breed their bitch with an outstanding quality dog and therefore, produce dogs that are the same. 

I know that I would have to look at the bitch's pedigree to see if there are any genetic disorders in her generation, and if there is, I would not allow that bitch to be bred to my stud dog.


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## HarleyTheGSD

lhczth said:


> When you talk about owning just 3 dogs are you meaning 3 females? A good breeding program is founded on good females. IMO there is little need to keep males when you only have a couple of girls. Far better to take advantage of the vast genetics around the world to build your program.
> 
> If you plan on developing a program and not just buying new females when needed you had better plan on eventually keeping more than 3 dogs. You will need to keep back at least one female from each bitch to continue on with your line. Of course some breeders place their older bitches when they are done breeding which helps keep the population down.
> 
> Just some more things to consider.
> 
> There are people that cross the show with work. They attempt to maintain a very strong bitch line and cross out to good males and then keep the best for the future. You will need to plan on being very picky in your choices and at times maybe not getting what you want.
> 
> As someone said earlier, get some experience first. The more knowledge you have the better able you will be to make educated breeding decisions.


I plan on owning males as well. My original plan was to own 2 bitches and 1 male, but what you are saying is that females are the best foundation for breeding? That's understandable. So I think I will wait and consider all of this. I have quite a long time to!
I am leaning more towards owning a single stud dog, because this wouldn't be as time consuming, so that I can still be committed to my future career (Veterinarian). But I would choose an oustanding quality dog with no history of genetic disorders and I would do Schutzhund training with him. And this, I know, is also time consumimg, but I would be more than happy to manage.


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## HarleyTheGSD

phgsd said:


> Anyone can own a stud dog - but few will want to breed to him unless you put a lot of time into his training and titling, or if you spend a lot of money on a titled dog.
> 
> Most people keep show and working lines separate - crossing the two sounds like a good idea in theory but you lose consistency and often end up with the worst of both lines. Crossing the different types of working lines is okay IF you know what you're doing in terms of temperament and drives. The wrong cross could turn out badly but many are crossing the lines with great success.


I would own an oustanding quality dog with exeptional temperament and structure with no genetic disorders in his history, and he would be Schutzhund trained. I would not mind spending the money for all of this, and I know that the dog itself will be very expensive as well as the training. And I would consider working with my dog in Schutzhund training to be a joy and a great bonding experience (even though I know there will be stressing, difficult moments).


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## Emoore

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I would own an oustanding quality dog with exeptional temperament and structure with no genetic disorders in his history, and he would be Schutzhund trained.




Not to stomp on your dream, but what you say you'd like to have. . . . .is what everybody wants. What all the breeders are striving for. What all the buyers are trying to buy. I really really really hope you get your outstanding stud dog. I just hope I get one first.  They're like hens' teeth. 


I'd be interested to know-- is there anybody out there who owns one outstanding stud and nothing else? Seems like all the great studs are owned by kennels. I think part of the problem is that, in order for owners of really good females to look twice at your stud, he needs to have a progeny group worth noticing. Usually this is done by breeding him to your own females first. Then the owners of top females see what your dog has produced and decide to try breeding to him. Someone who owns a really nice female isn't going to waste a litter trying out an untried male.


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## qbchottu

HarleyTheGSD said:


> -My goal as a breeder is to produce dogs with exeptional, loyal temperament, sturdy, well balanced structure, and to provide people with an outstanding, protective *family dog or a loyal companion. *
> -My breeding program would influence the breed by producing well structured, loyal, protective, hard working, loving dogs and provide resposible dog owners with an *amazing companion*.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are looking to primarily produce pet/companion quality dogs. That's fine and many people breed for pet dogs. However, there are millions of pet quality dogs that are produced as breeders try to either breed for profit or breed to produce a quality working/conformation dog. Heck...my rescue is a great companion as well. You can find many a good companion at shelters. 

If you are working towards achieving high levels in conformation or Schh, then pet quality dogs will be a byproduct of breedings you do based on the reasoning of keeping a select pup for "greater" goals. I am fine with this line of reasoning. I do have a problem with breeders breeding exclusively for pet quality dogs since we have an out of control pet overpopulation problem. 

At this point, I would say you need to decide if you want to get into showlines or working dogs. If showlines, title a dog (much much harder than it sounds. takes countless hours if you do it right, can get away with an IPO1 for a female), get the dog rated at regional/national level SV shows, breed survey and then if the dog is still able to do all that, decide if you are in the right place to breed. If working dogs, you will have to again title the dog to an even higher standard (IPO3, multiple titles if possible to prove working ability of the dog), get a rating for the breed survey and breed survey. 

Titling, rating and breed surveying your own dog will provide you with the first hand experience on the work it takes to breed dogs. I would try doing that first before considering breeding. I am currently titling 2 dogs and the amount of work is incredible. I'll be lucky if I can get an IPO1 on them before they turn two and they have been training/doing foundation work since they were born. Not trying to be discouraging. Just a word of caution to manage expectations... You did say that you can manage, but if you do plan on becoming a vet, it will be very difficult to manage a successful breeding program in addition to maintaining a practice. Of course, you can purchase titled/rated dogs to start breeding, but it will be expensive and you will have to eventually start titling/rating your own dogs to provide credibility to your program. Food for thought


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## qbchottu

Emoore makes an excellent point as well. Most of us will not own a top stud male. It's really a far out chance. You can purchase a good stud if you are willing to pay 50k or more, but most of us are not. Also, from hearing brokers talk about importing dogs, I realize that a German kennel is not going to be very keen to sell a top quality stud dog with zero issues. If they have that "perfect" stud, they won't let him go. Many times, they will sell either untitled dogs that have promise or sell you a stud that is great in many ways, but is lacking in some way. For example, I have a breeder friend that imported a very nice male from fantastic lines, but the only reason the original breeders sold the dog was because the dog had aggression issues. Now my friend still had to pay $50k+ for that dog and then deal with undoing what damage was done. Just an example of the headache you might experience. 

There is a very small chance that you can breed a top stud dog. It almost never happens, and when it does, it happens to established kennels that have been doing this for decades. If you want to start breeding, you pretty much have to start with females because unless you purchase a top stud male, you probably will not be able to raise one.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Emoore said:


> Not to stomp on your dream, but what you say you'd like to have. . . . .is what everybody wants. What all the breeders are striving for. What all the buyers are trying to buy. I really really really hope you get your outstanding stud dog. I just hope I get one first.  They're like hens' teeth.
> 
> 
> I'd be interested to know-- is there anybody out there who owns one outstanding stud and nothing else? Seems like all the great studs are owned by kennels. I think part of the problem is that, in order for owners of really good females to look twice at your stud, he needs to have a progeny group worth noticing. Usually this is done by breeding him to your own females first. Then the owners of top females see what your dog has produced and decide to try breeding to him. Someone who owns a really nice female isn't going to waste a litter trying out an untried male.


I understand. I just want my dreams to come true so badly! I might not get the "perfect" stud dog, but I at least want a good quality dog. Either way, I will love him and I'm sure he will be an outstanding, loyal companion.


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## HarleyTheGSD

qbchottu said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are looking to primarily produce pet/companion quality dogs. That's fine and many people breed for pet dogs. However, there are millions of pet quality dogs that are produced as breeders try to either breed for profit or breed to produce a quality working/conformation dog. Heck...my rescue is a great companion as well. You can find many a good companion at shelters.
> 
> If you are working towards achieving high levels in conformation or Schh, then pet quality dogs will be a byproduct of breedings you do based on the reasoning of keeping a select pup for "greater" goals. I am fine with this line of reasoning. I do have a problem with breeders breeding exclusively for pet quality dogs since we have an out of control pet overpopulation problem.
> 
> At this point, I would say you need to decide if you want to get into showlines or working dogs. If showlines, title a dog (much much harder than it sounds. takes countless hours if you do it right, can get away with an IPO1 for a female), get the dog rated at regional/national level SV shows, breed survey and then if the dog is still able to do all that, decide if you are in the right place to breed. If working dogs, you will have to again title the dog to an even higher standard (IPO3, multiple titles if possible to prove working ability of the dog), get a rating for the breed survey and breed survey.
> 
> Titling, rating and breed surveying your own dog will provide you with the first hand experience on the work it takes to breed dogs. I would try doing that first before considering breeding. I am currently titling 2 dogs and the amount of work is incredible. I'll be lucky if I can get an IPO1 on them before they turn two and they have been training/doing foundation work since they were born. Not trying to be discouraging. Just a word of caution to manage expectations... You did say that you can manage, but if you do plan on becoming a vet, it will be very difficult to manage a successful breeding program in addition to maintaining a practice. Of course, you can purchase titled/rated dogs to start breeding, but it will be expensive and you will have to eventually start titling/rating your own dogs to provide credibility to your program. Food for thought


Actually, I want to produce working dogs. Sorry, I realize I made it look like the opposite. I want to produce dogs that are great workers, are protective, are loyal, and have high energy for work.
I understand comletely when you said; "we have an out of control pet overpopulation problem." and I realize why you have a problem with this. I would never want to produce dogs that would eventually become a stray or end up in a shelter. 

The process of titling does sound extremely complicated and time consuming, and that is definately something to consider. I want to start out with a single stud dog (and it might not be perfect, I now realize), and see if I can handle breeding.


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## msvette2u

As others were saying, buying one stud dog really doesn't make sense.
I've been looking at getting into breeding Dachshunds and the consensus is the same; purchase a potential show quality bitch puppy and start from there.
"Handle breeding", well, he'll do that for you. There's really little to "handle", since you won't be doing all the work, the owner of the bitch will be.

As for the other - don't plan on breeding (especially a stud dog) if you have no titles.
He's worth nothing, really, without them.
It's like the horse racing world. Nobody wants to breed to a stud horse until he's accomplished things, important things.

Anyone can own a male and stud him out. Hang around petsmart or Petco and you'll find a bitch to breed to.

But to be an outstanding kennel takes years and a lot of work.
Start going to shows, plenty of shows, now!


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## Catu

Emoore said:


> Not to stomp on your dream, but what you say you'd like to have. . . . .is what everybody wants. What all the breeders are striving for. What all the buyers are trying to buy. I really really really hope you get your outstanding stud dog. I just hope I get one first.  They're like hens' teeth.


Too bad Emoore, I got mine first 

Ok, lets say you, with the help of your gods and a lot of good luck, got an outstanding dog, you are even training him in Schutzhund. But the dog is only a part of the equation, you also need a very good club, a very good helper (rats!) and to be a very good handler, who needs to work daily at home with the dog. And I AM in vet school, so I know sometimes you can spend months without training at all. Being realistic, this very good male, genetically speaking, may not even reach its SchH3. How will you compete against all the other studs dogs out there, of the same quality as yours, who are winning championships around the country and the world. And I really mean compete, because if you want to achieve your goal in your breeding program you need also great quality bitches to stud to, and they wont be knocking at your door unless you campaign your male.

But the real, real problem is not that one. The real problem to fund your breeding program is not to get an oustanding dog, not even getting oustanding bitches. The real challenge is to recognize them once you have one in front of your eyes. There is where breeding becomes an art that divide those who excel from the average. If your goal is to get the best working dog, first than all you need to know what traits make such dog and the only way is working yourself, training, be exposed to different task, different types of dogs and recognize whom, and why, excel. 

Forget about becoming a breeder, that one is not a goal on it itself that worth anything. Anyone can put a female and a male together, even register the products and call himself a breeder. I think we get a thread like yours (I want to be a breeder once I finish college) every other month. 

My humble advice: be a student of the breed, be a student of genetics, be a student of health, ethology, helper work, handling, breed history and then, maybe, you will cross your path with THAT DOG, either male or female, and you will know this is what you had been looking for.


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## Castlemaid

Wonderful post, Catu!


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## PaddyD

Castlemaid said:


> Wonderful post, Catu!


Agreed.

How far in the future is this potential breeding going to begin?


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## vomlittlehaus

Castlemaid said:


> Wonderful post, Catu!


Agreed!


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## bocron

HarleyTheGSD said:


> -By owning a German show line/working line stud dog, I will allow other breeders to breed their bitch with an outstanding quality dog and therefore, produce dogs that are the same.
> 
> I know that I would have to look at the bitch's pedigree to see if there are any genetic disorders in her generation, and if there is, I would not allow that bitch to be bred to my stud dog.



Starting out your breeding program with a male is probably the hardest way to go. Look at it this way, if you owned a female that you raised, trained, titled and got the health certifications done, who would you want to breed her to? Most(if they don't own their own male to use) will go out and find a male that has the most accolades, the highest title you can find, a koerklasse rating, and hopefully a dog that has participated in the highest level, Regional, National or even World competitions (working line or showline, each has their own brass rings). So unless you have the skill to train, title and compete at that level, most people who own a breedworthy female are not going to breed to a nice looking dog with no certifications or the bare minimums. If they are willing to breed their female indiscriminately then they are not what most would consider a true advocate of the breed, and you don't want your male's reputation attached to that. 
You have plenty of time, get out to some clubs and conformation events and watch the different lines work. Experience their temperament and overall demeanor and then decide where to start. If you truly get the Conformation bug, then you won't enjoy trying to win with a working line, conversely, if you get the Schutzhund bug, you will probably enjoy training and competing with a dog from working lines. 

Good luck whichever way you go!


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## HarleyTheGSD

Thank you to everybody that posted, all of your replies helped tremendously! Now I realize that breeding or even owning one stud dog is much more difficult than I thought, and I am fixed on getting a stud dog. I am willing to go to clubs and conformation shows to have a better understanding of how the German lines work, and I will get out and ask breeders and Schutzhund trainers more questions. I am also willing to get my stud dog titled, trained, and into any competitions I can get into. I am very determined and will do whatever I can to reach my goals. 
And don't worry, I will do much much more research and look closely at both lines in person. 

Thank you again everybody!!


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## gagsd

Good luck Brittany!


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## Freestep

Brittany, do you have a mentor? I think that is the most important thing for anyone wishing to get into dogs.

I think the key is to get a good quality pup, with a solid pedigree, raise, train, and title that pup, show and get a koer rating, and when all that is said and done, see if you still want to do that over and over and over again... 

THEN see if you still want to be a breeder!


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## Catu

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I am also willing to get my stud dog titled, trained, and into any competitions I can get into.


Why not get your dog titled, trained, and into any competitions you can get into, before deciding if you are going to stud him?


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## trudy

Brittany, get out and about, see dogs, learn from others, find a breeder you like, buy the best boy you can, train and trial him while finishing your studies and starting your career. By the time you are ready to start breeding , you will have no student loans and will own your own place with enough land to have a couple of dogs, your first dog will most likely be retired, but you will have learned so very much from him. You are now ready for more...I am sure with all the training and trialling you have seen dogs you like and don't...Use that info and the friends and breeders you know and trust and search for dog # 2, male or female, won't matter as training, trialling will take several years, health testings being done, and if this dog turns out and has no issues you and others don't like, here is the start of your breeding..then you will know where you are going.

And I know young people think everything must be done quick...there is no quick success, your first dog may be super and you might get some stud service, but the learning you will get is most important. As well too often young people with great intentions have limited finances to back it up. Often renting and at the whim of renters on if they can keep their dog. Jobs are easy to loose so extra expenses become more difficult, especially if paying off debt, a sick dog, training costs, trialling costs etc, may be out of your reach.. I know you would never give up your dog for boy friends, babies etc, but too often we hear of it, and what will you do if the dog and boy friend don't like each other?? Many thoughts to think of. Wait, there is lots of time


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## HarleyTheGSD

Catu said:


> Why not get your dog titled, trained, and into any competitions you can get into, before deciding if you are going to stud him?


 Hmm. So that I would know what he is capable of? I should do that. And if something goes wrong to where I cannot stud him and I lose a lot of money, I will still have an amazing, loyal, protective companion.


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## HarleyTheGSD

trudy said:


> Brittany, get out and about, see dogs, learn from others, find a breeder you like, buy the best boy you can, train and trial him while finishing your studies and starting your career. By the time you are ready to start breeding , you will have no student loans and will own your own place with enough land to have a couple of dogs, your first dog will most likely be retired, but you will have learned so very much from him. You are now ready for more...I am sure with all the training and trialling you have seen dogs you like and don't...Use that info and the friends and breeders you know and trust and search for dog # 2, male or female, won't matter as training, trialling will take several years, health testings being done, and if this dog turns out and has no issues you and others don't like, here is the start of your breeding..then you will know where you are going.
> 
> And I know young people think everything must be done quick...there is no quick success, your first dog may be super and you might get some stud service, but the learning you will get is most important. As well too often young people with great intentions have limited finances to back it up. Often renting and at the whim of renters on if they can keep their dog. Jobs are easy to loose so extra expenses become more difficult, especially if paying off debt, a sick dog, training costs, trialling costs etc, may be out of your reach.. I know you would never give up your dog for boy friends, babies etc, but too often we hear of it, and what will you do if the dog and boy friend don't like each other?? Many thoughts to think of. Wait, there is lots of time


I will do lots of research and will wait until I know for sure that I am ready. I will also talk to breeders in person and ask questions. 
I agree when you said; "your first dog may be super and you might get some stud service, but the learning you will get is most important". Even if my stud dog doesn't get any service, I will have the knowledge and will be able to keep trying and I will know what to look for. 
And you are right, I will not let any boys get in the way. And if the boyfriend and the dog don't get along....well he'll just have to either deal with it or leave.


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## RebelGSD

Brittany, I am wondering what you are doing NOW? In terms of training and showing? Are you working on titling your current dog? Are you going to shows? What is your dog knowledge? I know plenty of girls ofvyour age who are doing just that.
It is easy to read and parrot back a writeup of what it takes to be a responsible breeder and making claims that you will do it. None of that is going to happen if you don't connect to reality.

Anybody can say: I love breeding, I am going to have the perfect dogs with no or temperament or health issues that are going to have the prefect babies which are going to go to perfect homes and never get returned or end up homeless. Everybody wants that in a perfect world.

I don't see you moving away from theory and connecting reality over all these threads.


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## HarleyTheGSD

RebelGSD said:


> Brittany, I am wondering what you are doing NOW? In terms of training and showing? Are you working on titling your current dog? Are you going to shows? What is your dog knowledge? I know plenty of girls ofvyour age who are doing just that.
> It is easy to read and parrot back a writeup of what it takes to be a responsible breeder and making claims that you will do it. None of that is going to happen if you don't connect to reality.
> 
> Anybody can say: I love breeding, I am going to have the perfect dogs with no or temperament or health issues that are going to have the prefect babies which are going to go to perfect homes and never get returned or end up homeless. Everybody wants that in a perfect world.
> 
> I don't see you moving away from theory and connecting reality over all these threads.


I am no professional trainer, but I have trained my German Shepherd, Harley, the following; sit, stay, sit from down position, down, sit-stay, down-stay, heel, heel-stay ( recall, sit on my left side, and stay), and shake. 
I am not going to be titling my current dog.
I have not been to any shows in person, but plan to do so in the future. 
I am still studying dog breeds, physiology, diseases/illnesses, temperaments of different breeds, and wanted characteristics/traits of different dog breeds, and I, of course, am still doing lots of research, and haven't even covered all that I have posted. 

I understand what you are saying. I am in my own fantasy world where I will have the perfect dog and it will produce the perfect offspring, and all of them will find good homes. I realize that if I do breed, maybe about 80 percent of the offspring I produce will end up in shelters, or on the street. I know that I will probably never even find the perfect dog in the first place. This is why I posted this thread in the first place. To get information and to let people share their own opinions. I now know that breeding isn't easy and there will be discomforts, but I will do more research and talk to experienced breeders in person. 
Right now, I am just considering breeding in the future.


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## Freestep

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I am not going to be titling my current dog.


Why not?


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## HarleyTheGSD

Freestep said:


> Why not?


I definately want to, but I can't, because he is very nervous, skittish, and scared around people (but he is very indifferent with other dogs). ~I got him at 4 months old unsocialized and his fear of people never went away, no matter how much I got him around people. He is doing much better though, now that he is 2 years old. He will bark at people (he never attacks, which is good) and his tail will stand straight in the air, which tells me he has more confidence. He also will protect me if the situation calls for it. <--- This all happens at home, if I'm walking him near a park, he will just hide underneath a bench.~ 
With him being like this, I don't think he would be able to pass SchH1.


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## qbchottu

You could try for a BH. Not saying he will pass (may have issues with the last part of meeting new people, being left unattended or being around bikes/skates), but it will be invaluable for you to gain the experience. Your first sport dog, even if he doesn't accomplish much, will be crucial in teaching YOU more than him


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## HarleyTheGSD

qbchottu said:


> You could try for a BH. Not saying he will pass (may have issues with the last part of meeting new people, being left unattended or being around bikes/skates), but it will be invaluable for you to gain the experience. Your first sport dog, even if he doesn't accomplish much, will be crucial in teaching YOU more than him


 So do you think I could still try out for it? Could I get training tips from a Schutzhund club? I would definately go for a BH just to get more experience, and my dog would at least be well trained, and he might even relax a little more around people.


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## qbchottu

You have to do a BH before trying for IPO1 so your club will certainly be able to help you achieve that level. BH is more like a CGC because it is an obedience and temperament test. Not like IPO that has the three phases and is a lot harder. At my club, we have a guy that has been working on his dog for several _years_ now and he is perfectly happy knowing that it took him this long. The dog is now 6 and ready for his IPO1. The dog will never be bred and his IPO1 is just for fun so there is no reason why you can't try for titles. Just because you might not get it doesn't mean you can't have lots of fun participating and practicing. Also, that dog is ROCK solid on obedience because the handler worked on that aspect for so long. This dog will run circles around us during obedience. Taking it nice and slow has its rewards 

Here are some links:
BH rules | BH test rules | Begleithund German Temperament Test Rules | BH commands, heeling pattern, and scoring
New Titles and Regulations
BH Rules

Read as much as you can about the BH. Be honest and up front with your club about your goals. You can tell them about your dog's limitations and they will help you from there. Go for it. You learn by doing!


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## HarleyTheGSD

qbchottu said:


> You have to do a BH before trying for IPO1 so your club will certainly be able to help you achieve that level. BH is more like a CGC because it is an obedience and temperament test. Not like IPO that has the three phases and is a lot harder. At my club, we have a guy that has been working on his dog for several _years_ now and he is perfectly happy knowing that it took him this long. The dog is now 6 and ready for his IPO1. The dog will never be bred and his IPO1 is just for fun so there is no reason why you can't try for titles. Just because you might not get it doesn't mean you can't have lots of fun participating and practicing. Also, that dog is ROCK solid on obedience because the handler worked on that aspect for so long. This dog will run circles around us during obedience. Taking it nice and slow has its rewards
> 
> Here are some links:
> BH rules | BH test rules | Begleithund German Temperament Test Rules | BH commands, heeling pattern, and scoring
> New Titles and Regulations
> BH Rules
> 
> Read as much as you can about the BH. Be honest and up front with your club about your goals. You can tell them about your dog's limitations and they will help you from there. Go for it. You learn by doing!


Thanks! 
Also, my dog is an American GSD, not show line though. Will it still be ok for me to go for a BH?


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## Castlemaid

Yes, any dog of any breed can do a BH. Even mutts. It is an evaluation of control and willingness to work with a handler, not of the pedigree.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Castlemaid said:


> Yes, any dog of any breed can do a BH. Even mutts. It is an evaluation of control and willingness to work with a handler, not of the pedigree.


Well then that's perfect. 
Thanks!


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## Castlemaid

Even if Harley has issues with some parts of the training because of his timid nature, having hands on experience in working a dog and seeing many other dogs in training will be a huge help in getting you started in your journey to learn and educate yourself about the breed. 

It would be a great experience for Harley too - it helped my pound rescue enormously. I got her into training because she was too much for me to handle, and it really turned her around, and the experience has been quite an education for me in many different aspects, all for good.


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## bocron

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Thanks!
> Also, my dog is an American GSD, not show line though. Will it still be ok for me to go for a BH?



Doesn't matter. We have a girl in our club who has a GSD she got at a pet shop! She never got papers on him, so applied for his scorebook with a PAL number (the AKC way to compete but not get breeding papers). He will be getting his BH this fall. 
I am also planning on getting a BH on my Lancashire Heeler. Definitely not a Schutzhund type dog, but I don't care, the experience and the training is valuable no matter what.

You will learn way more training and working with a less than stellar sport dog. It teaches you ways to solve more complicated training conundrums. My daughter started out with an Australian Cattle dog. By the time we got her her own GSD she had great skills and has done very well. Also, I hate to say it but most people's first training dog is kind of a guinea pig. You are just learning and will make mistakes (we all did and still do) so it is better to not make those mistakes with a dog that you hope to compete with. I cringe when I think about my first competition dog. I was totally learning and did so many things that hindered him. We got the CDX but not because of me! If I had that same dog today it would be so different. Same thing with my first Schutzhund dog, she was fabulous, me, not so much .
Training your current dog is a great way to start, it can only help you both. You need to find a club that will understand your goals and is willing to support those goals.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Castlemaid said:


> Even if Harley has issues with some parts of the training because of his timid nature, having hands on experience in working a dog and seeing many other dogs in training will be a huge help in getting you started in your journey to learn and educate yourself about the breed.


That is why I'm going to do it. Even though he might not pass, he will still be well trained and I will have more knowledge. So either way, both of us are going to get something out of it.


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## HarleyTheGSD

bocron said:


> Doesn't matter. We have a girl in our club who has a GSD she got at a pet shop! She never got papers on him, so applied for his scorebook with a PAL number (the AKC way to compete but not get breeding papers). He will be getting his BH this fall.
> I am also planning on getting a BH on my Lancashire Heeler. Definitely not a Schutzhund type dog, but I don't care, the experience and the training is valuable no matter what.
> 
> You will learn way more training and working with a less than stellar sport dog. It teaches you ways to solve more complicated training conundrums. My daughter started out with an Australian Cattle dog. By the time we got her her own GSD she had great skills and has done very well. Also, I hate to say it but most people's first training dog is kind of a guinea pig. You are just learning and will make mistakes (we all did and still do) so it is better to not make those mistakes with a dog that you hope to compete with. I cringe when I think about my first competition dog. I was totally learning and did so many things that hindered him. We got the CDX but not because of me! If I had that same dog today it would be so different. Same thing with my first Schutzhund dog, she was fabulous, me, not so much .
> Training your current dog is a great way to start, it can only help you both. You need to find a club that will understand your goals and is willing to support those goals.


Well, it's true, sadly. Harley is going to be my guinea pig. But this is going to be something we both enjoy (hopefully). And I will have more knowledge and will probably do better in the future. I am so excited now that I know that Harley can try for a BH!


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## HarleyTheGSD

One more thing:
Does anybody know how old you have to be to handle a dog going for a BH? Does it matter?


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## Catu

No, it doesn't matter. Do a Google search and you will see 7 years old kids handling in Schutzhund.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Catu said:


> No, it doesn't matter. Do a Google search and you will see 7 years old kids handling in Schutzhund.


 I just did a Google search and couldn't exactly find what I was looking for, except this one website where a young girl was on the field doing Schutzhund training. Well thanks, it probably would have taken me a while to find that out.


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