# Is she up to par for AKC?



## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

I'm not very familiar with American Showlines. My husband and I own all German bred GSDs, but I used to show AKC with Aussies years and years and years ago (and years LOL).

My plans were originally to just do UKC shows, but I've been toying with the idea of trying out AKC with this girl. I'd appreciate input. If it's a waste of time, please tell me ... by all means, I won't have hurt feelings. I know GSDs in the American show ring are very specialized, so I certainly don't want to look like the laughing stock with my German dog. :blush: This girl is obviously not as angulated and not as feminine as an Am bred bitch would be.

Her coat is a bit ... special. She's not quite a long coat and not quite a standard coat. I guess some might call her plush? She tends to get some fly away hairs around her face and legs. Her tail is also quite bushy. However, the coat along her mid section, chest, and neck is always short. She does have a double coat, as well.

In these photos, her coat is blown so she looks grey. She's actually a lovely red and black sable. In fact, she's so dark that most don't realize she even IS a sable. She looks more or less like a red and black saddle back. Also, her legs are very straight looking from the front and back. No cow hocks, no wobbly hocks, no east/west ... just straight.










I did photoshop myself out of the stacked photo and I "tried" to fix the horrible lighting and color. However, her topline is untouched and so is everything else. Her color is nicer than what this photo shows. Yes, her ears really are that big.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

Your dog is a Long Stock Coat, her coat is exactly like my Jaina Girls she is just not as extreme as some LSC get. So it is a fault in the standard but not a severe one. I will be showing my girl Jaina in AKC just because I can  lol
I actually show aussies in AKC now


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Ramage said:


> My husband and I own all German bred GSDs, but I used to show AKC with Aussies years and years and years ago (and years LOL).


Could not have been THAT long ago. 
AKC did not recognize Aussies until early 1990's I believe. (unless they were FSS prior to that?)


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

KLCecil said:


> Your dog is a Long Stock Coat, her coat is exactly like my Jaina Girls she is just not as extreme as some LSC get. So it is a fault in the standard but not a severe one. I will be showing my girl Jaina in AKC just because I can  lol
> I actually show aussies in AKC now


I don't see ear fuzzies.... based on those pictures, I would not call her a long coat. Her coat looks pretty typical. 

OP- can't hurt to try your hand at showing her. Doubt that she would be laughed out.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

You won't even know until you give it a try. Nice looking girl, she gaits well, stacks well. I say go for it. You might be surprised with the outcome.


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

gagsd said:


> Could not have been THAT long ago.
> AKC did not recognize Aussies until early 1990's I believe. (unless they were FSS prior to that?)


It was long enough ago that I barely remember what to do in the ring LMAO! Actually, I think the last AKC show with the Aussies was in 96 or 97 (I think). Somewhere in the mid to late 90's at least. 

I did handle a few American breds at an AKC show 2 years ago and managed to get a RWB with a dog I was handed outside of the ring and told to go show. Of course, I was so nervous I don't even remember what all I did or what order. Luckily, the dog was trained enough she did the work for me and I just stood and ran when told to.

The girl I posted about actually does have ear fuzzies. Not heavily so, but it is there and can be seen easier up close. So does that mean she is, for certain, a LSC? I've had others call her that, but never quite agreed only because the rest of her coat is so short. Maybe she is God's rejected LSC idea  It really does look as if she doesn't quite know herself what she is supposed to be.

I guess the worst that will happen is a judge might not place us at all if they think her coat is too long?


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> You won't even know until you give it a try. Nice looking girl, she gaits well, stacks well. I say go for it. You might be surprised with the outcome.


Thank you! I do like her a lot. She is just my cup of tea. If I could show her and be half way competitive with AKC, it would be a huge bonus ... but I didn't buy her for that reason and honestly only planned on UKC at best. Being able to show UKC and/or AKC would just be a hobby for me and fun to get out and do.


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

Gagsd - I see you are into herding? We've started our West German WL bitch on sheep and plan to start getting her out to trials this winter and next year. I'd be curious about your bloodlines that you have found to be best suited for the herding.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

Ah HA! I knew it  She looks a ton like Jaina. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/162628-jaina-13-months.html

At the worst the judge would do is not place you.


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

KLCecil said:


> Ah HA! I knew it  She looks a ton like Jaina. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/162628-jaina-13-months.html
> 
> At the worst the judge would do is not place you.


Yes! That is what my girl looks like when she is in coat. Almost the same coloring, too, but minus the gorgeous black mask that Jaina has :wub:

See, I still have a hard time calling Jaina a long coat. Neither really look like true long coats, but I guess genetically they are. When do you plan to start AKC with Jaina? I'd love to hear about her progress. Hopefully it will give me motivation :happyboogie:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Ramage said:


> Neither really look like true long coats, but I guess genetically they are.


The way I understand it, the gene for long coats is affected by modifiers that affect the length, thickness, texture, etc so much that a long coat can be nearly indistinguishable from a plush coat. So she could be a long coat (and my guess is that she is), yet have hair that isn't all that long. The telltale signs of a coat are the wispy, crimpy, fluffy hairs on the back of the ear at the base. The tail also looks different to me... hard to explain, but on a coat it looks more like a Golden's tail, whereas a short stock tail looks more like a wolf's tail. Am I making sense?


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

Freestep - that does make sense and she has all of those. The hair behind the ears is crimpy and soft and her tail is very bushy, like a Golden's would be (good description!). It always threw me off, though, since the rest of her coat is so short.

I do have a working line here, but she is no comparison. Her coat is so short, she's almost bald half of the time  The funny thing is, almost all of her littermates were obvious long coats! Full, fluffy, billowing hair and all.

Another showline I had was also pretty short in her coat. It wasn't as bad as the WL, but very obviously not a plush, or long coat, or anything of the sort.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I know of a GSD breeder did ALOT of trimming and scissoring and finished a REALLY long coat.


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> I know of a GSD breeder did ALOT of trimming and scissoring and finished a REALLY long coat.


Wouldn't that look really obvious? Or do the judges just turn a blind eye? Or do the judges not realize they're trimmed? A friend of mine shows Terriers and made that same comment to me yesterday.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Guess the judge was more impressed with the movement than the coat. The dog does move beautiful, but what a long, coat he has.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

But if coats are going to be shown, they are supposed to be shown honestly, not trimmed up.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

Jaina will start showing in AKC shortly, and no trimming will be allowed  I have a friend who really wants to show her so I will be sending her out with them when I am unable to make it to the shows they are going to.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Ramage- She's a pretty dog. But, I would stick with UKC (where they value a good working structure) unless you just want to have fun by showing AKC and don't care about spending money. Don't mean to be a buzz kill but I feel you asked for an honest opinion.

Do you have access to The Review which is published by the GSDCA? If you can borrow a copy of that magazine or ask GSDCA to send you a copy it will give you a great idea of what type of dog the AKC judge is looking for as show results are always included with pics.

I contacted a local GSDCA and asked one of their members to evaluate my girl. They are long time breeders/exhibitors and judges. They told me my girl would not cut it in AKC ring and showed me examples of actual dogs owned by club members that have finished. But what I learned is that just because your dog might not win AKC doesn't mean she is nota correct and beautiful dog! Show ring standards are fickle and trendy...

Sorry again and you can still show AKC as you never know what judge you might get but I am just being honest that she might not do well. She is a lovely bitch though!!!


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

I forgot to add that I can try to take a pic of the magazine and download it for you as I can't figure out the scanner-not a computer person!!

So, let me know if you would like me to do that and I will try to show a page of winning bitches...


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Duh...I am having a moment right now...Just go to GSDCA and click Events then Show Results and you will be able to click on results that have a (p) and see pics of winning bitches and you can compare to your dog and see! But, either way..she looks really nice to me!!


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

Ninemaple, I appreacite your posts! I actually have seen a lot of the GSDs that are winning right now. They're all very extreme. However, I was always lead to believe that All Breed shows and Specialties are different. At the Specialties, no way would a working dog cut it. Supposedly, the All Breed shows are more lenient. At least, this is what my show friends have been telling me. Maybe it just depends on who shows up at the All Breed shows LOL!

Edited to add: I would never, ever take this girl to a Specialty. No way! Most likely, I will end up just sticking with UKC unless I know a certain AKC show that happens to usually be smaller in turn out.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Show her!

The AKC could do with an influx of German bred dogs, Czech dogs etc.. Maybe they'd learn.


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

zyppi said:


> Show her!
> 
> The AKC could do with an influx of German bred dogs, Czech dogs etc.. Maybe they'd learn.


I agree! I seem to recall a German bred dog that did fairly well a few years back (in my area). Not sure that the dog finished it's CH, but did manage to place over a few nice Am breds. It all just boils down to the judges, I suppose.

Wouldn't it be fun to show up with a bunch of German breds? :wild:


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Ramage said:


> Gagsd - I see you are into herding? We've started our West German WL bitch on sheep and plan to start getting her out to trials this winter and next year. I'd be curious about your bloodlines that you have found to be best suited for the herding.


 
I can say that both of my males, Ari and Anik, show aptitude. Anik was actually breathtaking (to me) the first time he worked stock. He worked the border like a pro, and really seemed to aware aware of his power over the stock. He would back over and add distance when the stock seemed stressed. Amazing.

The go-to person for bloodline information, IMO, is Ellen Nickelsberg.
If you are interested in tending style work, Sherry Lee (a Sheltie person) is in Orlando and has a nice set-up and experience wih GSDs.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I seem to recall a German bred dog that did fairly well a few years back (in my area).


Depending on where you live, I'm guessing you mean Jim Fiemereck, who did finish his AKC Championship


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Depending on where you live, I'm guessing you mean Jim Fiemereck, who did finish his AKC Championship


Not sure if that is him or not, but probably is. I'm in FL. Does that sound about right?


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

gagsd said:


> I can say that both of my males, Ari and Anik, show aptitude. Anik was actually breathtaking (to me) the first time he worked stock. He worked the border like a pro, and really seemed to aware aware of his power over the stock. He would back over and add distance when the stock seemed stressed. Amazing.
> 
> The go-to person for bloodline information, IMO, is Ellen Nickelsberg.
> If you are interested in tending style work, Sherry Lee (a Sheltie person) is in Orlando and has a nice set-up and experience wih GSDs.


Thanks! We've been lucky enough to find a great instructor not far from here. Our girl also worked well from the start. We took our WL and SL girls out, but the SL girl wasn't anywhere near the WL in natural ability. We're fousing now on just the WL girl and hoping to get competitive with her.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

ninemaplefarm said:


> Ramage- She's a pretty dog. But, I would stick with UKC (where they value a good working structure) unless you just want to have fun by showing AKC and don't care about spending money. Don't mean to be a buzz kill but I feel you asked for an honest opinion.
> 
> Do you have access to The Review which is published by the GSDCA? If you can borrow a copy of that magazine or ask GSDCA to send you a copy it will give you a great idea of what type of dog the AKC judge is looking for as show results are always included with pics.
> 
> ...


The only reason those "types" are winning in the AKC ring is because they are the only ones entered in that ring.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Ramage said:


> Wouldn't it be fun to show up with a bunch of German breds? :wild:


I think so! I've been toying with the idea of showing my WL pup in AKC. She is pretty, though not what AKC judges are looking for. I don't expect to win, but I love to see working dogs in the breed ring (no matter what the breed), so why not?


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Hey...don't shoot the messenger!!!

Ramage- you could definitely try and see!! I know my region is extremely competitive and the speciality dogs compete all-breed here. But, maybe you are in a different region! For what it's worth, I am in New England......

You know what really stinks...these same exhibitors that have been showing and breeding for decades can't even get their own majors on their dogs. That is so discouraging for me.

They can get points but it is so political that even they need a "name" to get the majors. So, not only do you need a dog who has the current look and especially the movement but the right handler on the end of the lead.

Ok..I'm done being a buzz kill!!! Go for it and see!! :thumbup:


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

ninemaplefarm said:


> Hey...don't shoot the messenger!!!
> 
> Ramage- you could definitely try and see!! I know my region is extremely competitive and the speciality dogs compete all-breed here. But, maybe you are in a different region! For what it's worth, I am in New England......
> 
> ...


That's exactly why I wouldn't go to a larger AKC show, even if I did have a show quality American bred specimen.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

ninemaplefarm said:


> Hey...don't shoot the messenger!!!
> 
> Ramage- you could definitely try and see!! I know my region is extremely competitive and the speciality dogs compete all-breed here. But, maybe you are in a different region! For what it's worth, I am in New England......
> 
> ...


I agree It really does suck that people have to "pay to win"


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

ninemaplefarm said:


> Hey...don't shoot the messenger!!!
> .
> 
> You know what really stinks...these same exhibitors that have been showing and breeding for decades can't even get their own majors on their dogs. That is so discouraging for me.
> ...




I absolutely won't deny that a "name" handler is _definitely_ an asset, but you can certainly get majors without one. The people in my local GSD club that exhibit their own dogs, get majors and beat handlers. 

The girl that shows my dogs for me is also my breeder. She is in her early 20's and has been showing since she was about 10 or 11. She's finished several GSDs, including the sire of one of my bitches, and the dam of the other. She is definitely _not_ a "name"! She's a college student. 

A 9 year old boy got a 4 point major in Oklahoma City last month, _and_ went Best of Winners, with the 16 month old bitch that he's trained himself (he also got her CGC recently). Two of those "name" handlers went up to him after BOB and congratulated him. She is _not_ extreme. He also beat my oldest girl at the specialty with that same bitch. Darn little kid! 

I know, I know, everyone will say that these are the exceptions. I just want you to know that it's not impossible to win. I think if you want to go have fun in the ring with your girl, then do it. 

I want to win when we go, but the best we've done out of 5 shows so far is a major reserve (to her litter sister). I won't deny that I'm not disappointed sometimes, but as long as my girls are having fun, we'll keep going.
Mine aren't spooky, bug-eyed, scared or weird at the shows. :crazy: They have blast.


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

dogfaeries said:


> Mine aren't spooky, bug-eyed, scared or weird at the shows. :crazy: They have blast.


 
I really like to see that! Back when I was showing, that was very important. We all wanted to see a dog with a good attitude. A winning attitude went a long way to helping a dog succeed IMO. The past few shows I have been to, a lot of the dogs winning are terrified of their own shadow. What's up with that??

My girl LOVES to gait and show off. She also loves people. To me, she has a toe die for attitude for the show ring. I'm hoping there are some judges out there that still appreciate a good attitude and nice movement 

DogFaeries - sounds like you have a nice girl! Keep on chugging along and I'm sure she'll rack up those wins for you.

Edited to add: I snuck a peek at your dogs. Is Carly the one showing? I like her a lot. She is lovely.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Yes, Carly is the one that has a major reserve. The judge that gave her the reserve, really really liked her movement, just felt she is still immature.

She's my busy bee. Always GO GO GO. She isn't the least bit intimidated by anything we've encountered so far. She went back in for Winners Bitch one time with a complete stranger (a handler that offered to take her in, since we had two dogs going back in) and she didn't skip a beat. Stacked and gaited for the woman. (She had her at "cookie!"...) She's really a joy. 

And yes, I've seen a few dogs at the shows this past year that have spooky temperaments. I'm always amazed when I see that, because that is so different from what I experience with my girls. At Sage's first and only show so far, she decided to take a big nap in the middle of the aisle while we were waiting to go in. Goofy dog.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

My girls have loads of attitude, lol. 

We've had to work on Sage, to get her to bring it down a notch. She can be just a bit too happy/bouncy/goofy when she is in the training ring. Time to be a big girl, not a bouncy bunny!  She managed to pull herself together for her first show though. I was proud of her.


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