# Odd behavior occuring during training



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I'm posting this video here as an example of the behavior I have now seen in 3 dogs. I am unsure if it's a fear response or a pain response. 

None of the dogs I've seen or heard of the behavior existing in have been hit. In fact, the dogs do not exhibit a fear response to noise aversive or collar corrections and are generally confident in their behaviors, and none of the dogs had been corrected (in any way shape or form) during the training sessions where they exhibit the odd behavior.

2 of the dogs are Border Collies, 1 is an Australian Shepherd.

Behavior typically starts suddenly in the middle of a training session and in some cases will progressively worsen until the dog becomes fearful of any movement on the trainers part.

Things that have been ruled out: tooth sensitivities, static shock, accidental pairing of treat with a collar correction, stepping on dog accidentally while giving the treat.

Here's the short video of a heeling session:

http://youtu.be/0mZujcsSygY

The dog in this video only displays the behavior while taking a treat in motion (while heeling or while treating during a walk to distract/redirect)

He has had his teeth examined by a vet and no problems were noted. His eye sight is good (and he has been examined by an ophthalmologist), he is wearing a padded harness to prevent any kind of uncomfortable tension. 

The other two dogs will display a similar behavior suddenly when being treated in a stationary position. In fact, they are LESS willing to continue working (the dog in the video wants to work, but is reacting while being treated) It should also be noted that even though the dog in the video is working, he is showing signs of stress which occurred only after the fear/pain response started... the training continues for the purpose of getting a video. The other dogs will shut down completely and becoming increasingly fearful to the point where when the owner dropped the leash the dog panicked. 

Ok people, I now implore you to explain the behavior. I am at a loss.

ETA: none of the actions on the part of the trainer (the treat giving, the bending over, the walking, the standing still, etc) seem to have an effect on the dog in and of itself. I know, in the video, it looks as though the bending over causes the reaction at one point, but the dog is fine with people bending over and standing up right next to it (and over top of it). All of the dogs will eat treats readily and have no sensitivities. Handing the treat to the dog will not always warrant this response. And typically, the dog in the video walks a lot closer while out on a walk!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

could it be the dog has the treat and expects a release , exercise finish . He looks very reluctant to even walk on leash. This is a pretty energetic breed , I don't see that energy at all. To get a better view of things the video should have shown the dog off lead , or getting a treat off lead . I think I am seeing avoidance to work . Maybe harsh leash correction at some point making the dog sour on leash . 
Carmen
http://www.carmspack.com


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## Tammy GSD (Dec 26, 2010)

I can't swear it but could it be that dog is like two of my smaller dogs...they like to eat the food away from where it's given? Mine will take a mouthful of food, run into another room, dump it on the ground in the middle of the floor and eat it there. Same thing with treats. They run to another room. Maybe that one tries to go off to eat but finds the leash won't allow it?


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

The video was taken after the behavior started. Before the behavior presents itself the dog acts completely different, it highly driven, very eager to work. (same with the other two dogs I know about who display similar behaviors) 

He is very reluctant to follow (or walk near the handler) ... but we've tried working him offleash as well and he'll 'follow' the handler but doesn't want to walk next to the handler -- this behavior was first noticed while trying to train a focused heel (because of the behavior he's demonstrating -- it's near impossible to train the focused heel). The other two dogs are showing the behavior while they are stationary and being given treats. The dogs are very willing to work and then all of the sudden they give a fear/pain response and their drive goes downhill... 

I'm not sure about expecting a release... the dog in the video is a treat mongrel! I have yet to find the point at which he wants to stop eating! So even after the release he's right there expecting another command and another treat ... well, except when the odd behavior starts. 

Same with the other dogs... they are very food motivated and high energy/high drive dogs.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I don't see what you describe. What I see is a dog not working for you. The dog is plodding along, then you give him food which he takes then he says "can I go now?" 
I don't see fear or pain, but rather a dog who is simply not working. He gets food for nothing. There is no reasoning for it and he is much more interested in running around than he is in doing whatever it is you are doing with him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

instead of continuing offering a treat so you can see it on a youtube , the handler should abandon this method right away , not enforce the behaviour .
he needs to connect to the animal , whatever it takes . he is serious and static. the dog and the man are pretty much the same in walking stiffly without animation .


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> I don't see what you describe. What I see is a dog not working for you. The dog is plodding along, then you give him food which he takes then he says "can I go now?"
> I don't see fear or pain, but rather a dog who is simply not working. He gets food for nothing. There is no reasoning for it and he is much more interested in running around than he is in doing whatever it is you are doing with him.


Again :/ the video was meant to show the behavior .. it's taken in medias res!

The dog starts off very enthusiastic. The dog then gives a pain/fear response and after that the dog is unenthused about working. The dog is being given treats for nothing, but simply to demonstrate the behavior. Sorry if the explanation of why the video was taken wasn't clear -- but it was simply taken to show the behavior, not to show a training exercise. 

What you never saw was the start of the training session, which might have been 5 minutes ago, it might have been 1hr ago... however, as soon as the dog reacted I got the camera out to document the behavior. Make sense? 

The other thing you aren't getting is the noise; the dog will yelp when backing away. So it's not a matter of 'this is dull and tedious' rather it's a matter of something is causing him to 'freak out'

He also is not interested in just 'running around' and were he off leash he would be following behind (lagging) but following the handler and he would still approach to take treats and he would still give the same response.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I don't really understand what's being trained in the video....what behavior is being reinforced?? If you reward sluggy behavior, the dog learns to give you sluggy behavior.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

carmspack said:


> instead of continuing offering a treat so you can see it on a youtube , the handler should abandon this method right away , not enforce the behaviour .
> he needs to connect to the animal , whatever it takes . he is serious and static. the dog and the man are pretty much the same in walking stiffly without animation .


The training is typically (other than in this particular case) stopped and some other kind of engagement is attempted (like a game).

I found taking the video to be important to document the behavior as I have also seen it occur in two other dogs. At the sake of setting the dog in the video back a step or so I felt it was worth it.

The biggest problem is that even stopping training and 1. ending the session for the day or 2. trying to reconnect through play the behavior is still there.

Do you see any reason why it is even occurring?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

zahnburg that is exactly what I was getting at.
he is looking for the treat as , whew what a relief this is all over, oh wait , yikes it's not , . The dog wants an exit . 
there is no connection . 
when I do training it is off lead 

swear this is absolutely true. can provide contact information of people involved. we had a little training club. the dogs were either directly bred by myself and placed or bred from my dogs by someone else and placed.
I wanted people to connect to their dogs . got frustrated that it was not happening so I challenged people to meet with me at a new plaza that had just opened --- early on a sunday -- very little traffic , huge parking lot to work in .

I asked them to walk around with their dogs and do the best that they could . 
then I had the group put their dogs away with the exception of one at a time . we worked behind a donut coffee shop where the deliveries would have been made. I said take take the dog off the leash and I will "take" him from you ?? huh. I would walk to the owner , look the dog in the air , **** my head , look inviting and with body language only bring the dog to follow prancing beside me fully attentive . no words , no bribe , the odd tickle in a sweet spot . to prove that I had more connection with the dog who did not live with me and did not ever have had any training or influence from me I would swing by the owner , pause and continue and each time the dog followed me . 
this happened to all the dogs. only one needed a little more time at the beginning to convince it to "come" along with me.

the body language of the handler -- I would not want to follow along with him. if he needs to play the part of the fool to interest the dog then that is what he needs to do. 
even if at some point this big broad fairly impossing guy got down on the ground , changed the ANGLE of his eye contact, smiled , took his cap off, dropped the miles of red leash he is holding so stiffly in his left hand .
the two pretty much mirror each other.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Ok. Think back to high-school, everyone had at least one friend like this. He shows up somewhere while a bong is being readied, he is very attentive and willing to do anything. He takes a few puffs and 20 minutes later says " I have to go" someone grabs him and says "have another hit" (he does) then he says "I have to go" and walks towards the door, someone grabs him and says "have another hit" (he does) then he says "I have to go" and walks toward the door etc.,etc.,etc.
This behavior starts after the dog has taken his hits, and he is now walking to the door, you stop him and say "have another treat" he does but then he says "I have to go".


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

where in the beginning is the dog enthusiastic ?

all the while you are doing the video you are reinforcing the response because you are doing it over and over 

a game is not engagement , it is doing something different , the change desparately needs to happen in the walking sequence , otherwise once again you are reinforcing the avoidance , the exit from work , you play and then you go back to this hesitant walking around?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yeah zahnburg , scooby dewbie , you are reinforcing the exit


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

carmspack said:


> when I do training it is off lead


When training off leash the dog will stay with the handler, but lags behind, the reaction is still present.

It could have something to do with the handler's enthusiasm and body language; however, even when the dog is excited and wanting to work the behavior still exists. The dog will be close to the handler, eager to work, but get the treat and react... regain his composure, get eager to work, get the treat and react. 

This behavior also happens on walks, when a treat it dropped, the dog will react :/ 

As for the BC, the dogs will all the sudden display the behavior and completely shut down. It's like going from 10 to 0 in drive.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but then it is clear the dog does not want to work

you have reinforced the gotta leave now with the appearance of the treat


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Ok, I think the point has gotten lost. It's not a video of a training exercise. It's a video of a behavior. 

If you think it's because he does not want to be working, that's fine. I do not agree.

If you think he's getting rewarded for lagging, that's fine, the point was not to demonstrate rewarding a bad behavior, rather, to demonstrate the reaction to the reward.

I do find it very interesting that different forums (in general) have radically different suggestions/advice/opinions.

Any suggestions/advice/opinions anyone wants to give are great -- but many seem very off base considering the dogs involved, the situations in which the behaviors occur, etc. I figured I explained things well enough, I accept that I may not have.. but at the same time it seems as though people are running off with what they think it is and not willing to accept additional information (again, that's fine! but it's not very helpful)


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

carmspack said:


> but then it is clear the dog does not want to work
> 
> you have reinforced the gotta leave now with the appearance of the treat


Reinforcement increases the likelihood the behavior will exist again and again in similar situations. However, the behavior does not exist again and again, it's random and is occurring for a very specific reason. The dog goes from being in high drive to being in no drive in the blink of an eye. 

I'm trying to figure out why... not to figure out what to do when it happens. What we do is redirect, re-engage. The video is not an example of what typically happens, it's an example to demonstrate a very specific behavior.

What I seem to be getting as advice is 'don't continue with the training' ... which is great, because we don't!!! But since the behavior is occurring in three separate cases with three very high drive dogs that suddenly and without reason 'turn off' I felt a video was important to demonstrate what was going on and what the dog was doing.

Also, as for the handler, the handler is also there just to demonstrate the behavior, not to truly engage at this moment. Regardless of the handlers energy level, the dog still reacts. The reactions first occur while the dog is in high drive wanting to work.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

The fact that the behavior occurs in three different dogs, proves that it is not some odd fear or pain response, but rather a fundemental flaw in the training. 
I told you why it happens; the dog is not working, and he has already gotten his fill of "hits" and is ready to leave. 
As for what to do, it is simple. Make the dog work then reward him when he is working correctly. 
I thought I had a very good analogy, maybe I am the only one who had friends like that in high-school.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

exactly he keeps getting rewarded inappropriately, demonstration or not , the dog can't rationalise that . 

Carmen


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Ok, I'll throw this out -- could it have something to do with the fact that the three dogs are demonstrating weak nerve? Could something be causing them to shut down in the middle of training because of that?


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

e.rigby said:


> Any suggestions/advice/opinions anyone wants to give are great -- but many seem very off base considering the dogs involved, the situations in which the behaviors occur, etc. I figured I explained things well enough, I accept that I may not have.. but at the same time it seems as though people are running off with what they think it is and not willing to accept additional information (again, that's fine! but it's not very helpful)


Hey you asked for opinions, that's what you're getting. We can only guess based on what can be seen in the video. Perhaps you'd get a different/better response if your video showed the before and after. I'd like to see the dog in drive, then whatever happened and the sudden "turn off."


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

My question is "Why is the dog shutting down"

I'm still not sure why you're focusing on the video showing bad training when I've already mentioned that doesn't happen other than for that one time purpose of taking a video. 

That said, since the behavior has occurred prior to the day the video was ever taken.. I'm interested in thoughts of why the behavior occurs... why is this dog, and the other dogs, shutting down in the middle of training. 

I get the analogy about the dogs wanting to be done with the training ... but I don't know if I agree that they just decide out of no where they want to be done -- I'm trying to figure out what is causing it... the dogs are ALL ABOUT training and working and then it's as quick as turning off a light, the dogs just react (like the reaction in the video) and from then on they are unwilling to work eagerly or with full drive. SOMETHING is happening to shut them down... but what?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

e.rigby said:


> Ok, I'll throw this out -- could it have something to do with the fact that the three dogs are demonstrating weak nerve? Could something be causing them to shut down in the middle of training because of that?


 No, I don't think so. Dogs with weak nerves find comfort in knowing what to do. If you are making a lot of pressure and the dog shuts down then that is one thing, but that is not what is happening here.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

DunRingill said:


> Hey you asked for opinions, that's what you're getting. We can only guess based on what can be seen in the video. Perhaps you'd get a different/better response if your video showed the before and after. I'd like to see the dog in drive, then whatever happened and the sudden "turn off."


No, I don't mind the opinions... I just think they are going off topic. I'm not even offended by the opinions -- I'm frustrated because I don't think my question is really being addressed. 

I agree, though, that there needs to be a video taken while the dog is in drive and then shuts down. That's my err here... :/ Instead I posted a video of the dog in shut down mode giving the reaction -- I was more focused on the reaction because that's the same initial reaction he'll give right before his drive dies. 

My concern was that something about the treat/the handler's position/the angle of the dog's neck while taking the treat/eyesight/inner ear/etc has something to do with it... 

However, on the same token, the eyes have been checked, the dog has been examined for lameness... :/ I just don't know :/


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> No, I don't think so. Dogs with weak nerves find comfort in knowing what to do. If you are making a lot of pressure and the dog shuts down then that is one thing, but that is not what is happening here.


I didn't think of it that way, thanks. Maybe to truly demonstrate what I'm seeing I need to just record different sessions so as to pinpoint the exact moment it happens. That way you could see the dog in drive suddenly snap out of drive and we could figure out what's going on...


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

e.rigby said:


> My question is "Why is the dog shutting down"
> 
> I'm still not sure why you're focusing on the video showing bad training when I've already mentioned that doesn't happen other than for that one time purpose of taking a video.
> 
> ...


Because you have exhausted their food drive!!! You are bribing them with food. Once they have had enough then they are done. If it is free food then they will eat but they are no longer willing to work for it. Making a dog work and then giving food is entirely different from bribing them with food.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

e.rigby said:


> My concern was that something about the treat/the handler's position/the angle of the dog's neck while taking the treat/eyesight/inner ear/etc has something to do with it...
> 
> However, on the same token, the eyes have been checked, the dog has been examined for lameness... :/ I just don't know :/


No, I don't think it has anything to do with angle of the dog's neck, etc. If anything it looks like the HANDLER will be the one ending up with a sore neck! 

Honestly, there's nothing about the handling in the video that would encourage any dog to work in drive, no matter how naturally drivey they might be.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> Because you have exhausted their food drive!!! You are bribing them with food. Once they have had enough then they are done. If it is free food then they will eat but they are no longer willing to work for it. Making a dog work and then giving food is entirely different from bribing them with food.


That would make sense ... but I know two of the three dogs personally... and they've NEVER not had food drive. Even if the food is free and easy to get... I've never seen the dog not take food, not work for food, etc! 

I know the video shows bribery, again, there is a major need for a dif. video demonstrating the moment the behavior occurs. My point in posting the video was lost because it's just a moment in time and for those who do not know the dog or who have not seen the initial moment the reactions to that specific moment in time are not really helpful.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

DunRingill said:


> No, I don't think it has anything to do with angle of the dog's neck, etc. If anything it looks like the HANDLER will be the one ending up with a sore neck!
> 
> Honestly, there's nothing about the handling in the video that would encourage any dog to work in drive, no matter how naturally drivey they might be.


The dog behaves the same way with a more drively handler though. Again, my fault by posting the video... I regret even posting the video, I should have explained it instead. 

I only posted the video because I was focused on the reaction in terms of something 'physical' is causing it. I do believe there would be different opinions if I posted a different video


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Let me explain how food drive works, think of it as "money drive" in people. If you are dirt poor and I say "give me an hour of good work and I will pay you $100" then I am sure you will work very hard. On the other hand, if you have $10 million in the bank and I say "work very hard for 1 hour and you can have $100" you would tell me to "ef myself" 
It is the same with dogs. When the bank (stomach) is empty they will work hard for the food. When the bank (stomach) is full they will not.
However, everyone will take free money (food). Even if you had $10 million and I told you "take this $100 for nothing" you would take it. A dog is the same. Even when a dog's stomach is full and you say "take this treat for no work" they will take it. Though they most certainly will not work for it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am feeling like the dog who wants to quit and get out of here.
You keep doing the same thing and expect a different response, In training and in the email responses.

He does it for the other handler because the response is reinforced . You could put the handler in floppy feet and a clown outfit and use the routine as sad clown and sad doggy . The kids would laugh. 

Carmen


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

e.rigby said:


> SOMETHING is happening to shut them down... but what?


I doubt 3 dogs just happen to have a physical problem that pops up while they're training so look for other things they have in common. Just throwing a few things out here.

You said they start out engaged, so is it possible the training sessions are too long? Are these young dogs? Do you break it up with some fun running or jumping to keep them excited before they show signs of getting bored? 

Is it possible they're getting too many treats too quickly? Also are you using soft or hard treats like kibble? I use something soft, small and easily swallowed. (cheese or raw hamburger) 
If you hold back longer on the reward do they work harder to get it or no? 

Do they understand what they're being rewarded for, or are you throwing too many steps together too quickly? 

I'm guessing these aren't your dogs. Are the owners working with the dogs at home too? (or are they supposed to be but maybe not?)

I know the video was to show the dog after this all happens, maybe the next time you can start the camera before the dog shuts down, there might be something you're missing.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> Let me explain how food drive works, think of it as "money drive" in people. If you are dirt poor and I say "give me an hour of good work and I will pay you $100" then I am sure you will work very hard. On the other hand, if you have $10 million in the bank and I say "work very hard for 1 hour and you can have $100" you would tell me to "ef myself"
> It is the same with dogs. When the bank (stomach) is empty they will work hard for the food. When the bank (stomach) is full they will not.
> However, everyone will take free money (food). Even if you had $10 million and I told you "take this $100 for nothing" you would take it. A dog is the same. Even when a dog's stomach is full and you say "take this treat for no work" they will take it. Though they most certainly will not work for it.


I understand that. The dog in the video eats 1x a day. Nights before a big training day he is fasted (mealtimes are always at night) so it's then been a rather long time since a meal. His food drive is incredibly high during a training session. On top of that he is treated with high quality treats (determined by him to be 'high' quality)

The reaction can (and and does at times) occur at the beginning of a training session. 

This is now a dog that went from super high drive to just lagging behind. 

Something is causing the reaction and I'm interested to figure out what. 

My own opinion is that he is getting overstimulated and shutting down.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I am feeling like the dog who wants to quit and get out of here.
> You keep doing the same thing and expect a different response, In training and in the email responses.
> 
> He does it for the other handler because the response is reinforced . You could put the handler in floppy feet and a clown outfit and use the routine as sad clown and sad doggy . The kids would laugh.
> ...


Actually, it seems the exact opposite, you are responding to this thread and saying the same thing again and again even though that is not the question being asked.

How many times do I really need to agree with you -- YES, he doesn't want to be working. That's a given and that is irrelevant to WHY he is reacting in the FIRST place. I guess the problem is that you are stubbornly refusing to believe that something other than 'he just doesn't want to work' is coming into play here. You also have problems abandoning the fact that I posted a video of something that only occurred for the sake of getting the reaction on video. It's not something that is done in training once he has the initial reaction. The point of this thread was to figure out what caused the initial reaction. 

Regardless, your responses are past being useful -- they're just becoming tedious to read through.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

The fact that in the video the dog doesn't want to work is irrelevant. I accept the fact he is not motivated to be working. The point of the video was to show what the reaction looks like. He attempts to take the treat and then he yelps and backs away.

The dog is in full drive one moment, and reacts. Once he reacts he shuts down. He took the treats in the video because they were being offered, however, the reaction remains.

I've been discussing this on several different forums, each forum seems to have members of a different mindset... sadly, some members can't get unstuck from their very limited mindset! 

The best explanation and the one that seems to fit each of the dogs (even though they are trained and handled differently) is that the dogs are all high drive, but sensitive dogs. They are really into the training and when they get overstimulated they become overly sensitive to their environment. The reaction is similar to a pain reaction but it's more aptly related to one where you are so hyped up you can't handle even the smallest of stimuli and you overreact. 

Thus the reaction in all three cases. 

Continuation of the training causes the dogs to shut down and disengage.

If given a chance to rest the dogs go back into drive.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i would check the treats. taste one.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

doggiedad!

Though I agree - what kind of treat, how small, etc, - if it needs to be chewed it could be too big. 

But these are super sensitive dogs in general, no? I have a BC mix and while her mix gives her some hardness (mostly some Chow) when she's in her most BC like behaviors she is extremely sensitive to what is traveling down the leash. Not even my feelings towards what she is doing, my feelings about everything in that moment - if I am laughing, she's happy, if I am upset over something, she's trying to figure out how to fix it. 

I agree if it's safe to go unleashed, I would do that, and see about getting the handlers into a happy place (maybe use Art's example as a method  ) so that they are in that place where the dogs respond well to them normally. 

But that dog is just not that into him right then. 



> *If Border Collies are so smart, then why aren't they easy to train?
> 
> *If you are not a precise sort of trainer (most people aren't), then trying to train an intelligent Border Collie can be a frustrating task. Yes, they can pick up commands on two or three tries but they are also very perceptive and are constantly thinking. If, in teaching your dog to sit, you raise your right hand and say "Sit", the dog may pick that up the first time through. However, if the next time you repeat the command, you raise your arm at a different angle and use a slightly lower tone of voice or a different pace, a Border Collie will often pick up the subtle distinction and think that you are using an entirely new command. Border Collies have a difficult time learning to generalize, basically because it takes a dog that is less "critical" to be able to follow a sloppy command. Training a Border Collie can be like trying to teach a nerdy child that likes to overanalyze everything - it can be frustrating and an exhaustive exercise in patience.


A Border Collie Warning

I've always thought the Aussies were a "harder" dog, not so sensitive, but that's because the one that I had spent the most time with is a big, fat bully.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think it's because you didn't post a video that shows WHAT happened. The video shows the "after" and you asked "why?" To answer that question, you need a video that shows that precise moment that the dog first reacts. It's kind of like saying "What kind of bird did my cat just eat" and showing a picture of the cat.

As it stands, I have to agree what everyone else is saying. The trainer IS reinforcing the unwanted behavior. The "why" the dog reacts is irrelevant at that point. It could also be as simple as the dog picking up on the frustration level in the room. That can become self-fulfilling as well - trainer gets tense, dog reacts, trainer gets more tense...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't call that a trainer...it is a guy walking a dog with the line all jumbled up and no engagement with the dog whatsoever. 
The dog sat and scratched to avoid...and as dainerra posted, the tension does go down the leash. Carmen was right, work with the dog off leash, and change up the reward.
If the dog won't work for food(many aren't food driven) get out a ball or tug, build some drive. 
If something isn't working, change the technique.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I would probably be agreeing with most of these comments if I wasn't more concerned about the actual behavior when it initially happens. Once the dog reacts the first time (during a session) it is useless to continue working him. I think those (in other forums) who focused not so much on anything BUT the reaction the dog has to taking a treat were really the most helpful because they were looking past the handler's body language (when the initial reaction happens both dog and handler are engaged), they are looking past the dog's behavior leading up to the reaction (as again, when the initial reaction happens the dog is engaged) and they are looking specifically at why is he having a nervous fear reaction. So, take the video and just look at that and try to imagine a drivey dog who just all the sudden reacts. Again, once he reacts he shuts down like he is in the video. Also, for anyone saying the 'reaction' is being reinforced, not true. The lagging is being reinforced, but the reaction happens only after the marker and the treat (both of only lead to increased probability of the behavior at the time of the marker). The point of this thread was not 'how do I get him to heel' ... so if he learns to lag, it's not relevant! 

The treats being used are small of soft. He's had them before and has had no averse reaction to them. He doesn't react at home while he's working. 

Herding dogs in general are sensitive (with some breeds being less sensitive based on what all they were generally bred to do). The dog in the video is high drive, but sensitive. In situations where he's working in distracting situations it's possible he's becoming over aroused and thus his sensitivity is building rather than decreasing. Something is causing him to initially react, and though he doesn't typically have a fear/pain response he may be overly reactive to slight movement/touch/body posture/etc.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

you've obviously answered your own questions, not sure what you are really asking any longer?


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> you've obviously answered your own questions, not sure what you are really asking any longer?


I'm not really asking anything anymore  It just keeps getting replies  I think it would have been better to stick with the Aussie and BC communities for this because the breeds are so different. I also think, in general, the dif. breed owner's have drastically dif. styles of training... so where as the GSD people are focused on precision and qued in on lack of appropriate behavior on the dog's part... the Aussie/BC people qued in on the dog's body language specifically at the point where he reacted. .. if that makes any sense at all :/ 

Live and learn  I'll keep questions posted here specific to German Shepherds ... as in my own household my Shepherd is incredibly different in attitude/behavior/responsiveness to training than my Aussies!


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## Tammy GSD (Dec 26, 2010)

In reading all of your responses and then relooking at the video, it looks like a lot of things...dog is bored (worked too long), dog wants to quit but is jerked back to it, dog is getting frustrated from being forced, man is getting frustrated and dog senses it and gets more frustrated, dog wants away from man, dog restricted from exit by the darned leash, again...with some free treats in there too.

Why would someone "train" differently for video purposes, especially so badly and in a manner to confuse the dog? Why train that simple exercise on a leash, especially one so long? If three dogs are doing it, I'd have to agree that it's probably just bad trainer(s) in addition to the rest (and a good trainer would know to read the dog's behavior and quit while the dog is still actively engaged). More than a few minutes and especially if this is an ongoing training, the dog is gonna be reluctant to do anything at all as this is not a positive and rewarding experience.

If you are so vehemently defending the bad trainer in the video, I can only imagine the other "better trainer" isn't really much of an improvement?

Just my opinion, though...everyone has one and they all smell funky.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Tammy GSD said:


> In reading all of your responses and then relooking at the video, it looks like a lot of things...dog is bored (worked too long), dog wants to quit but is jerked back to it, dog is getting frustrated from being forced, man is getting frustrated and dog senses it and gets more frustrated, dog wants away from man, dog restricted from exit by the darned leash, again...with some free treats in there too.
> 
> Why would someone "train" differently for video purposes, especially so badly and in a manner to confuse the dog? Why train that simple exercise on a leash, especially one so long? If three dogs are doing it, I'd have to agree that it's probably just bad trainer(s) in addition to the rest (and a good trainer would know to read the dog's behavior and quit while the dog is still actively engaged). More than a few minutes and especially if this is an ongoing training, the dog is gonna be reluctant to do anything at all as this is not a positive and rewarding experience.
> 
> ...


The video was taken ONLY to show the behavior. Why is that so difficult for everyone to comprehend? It only exists because the dog was doing something odd and the handler only ran through the motions to demonstrate the behavior on video with the dog!?

I think that's the biggest thing people are having an issue with... they see a video and automatically assume something or another.

I'm not defending anyone, I'm trying to clarify things and people are seemingly oblivious.

The dog is not being 'trained' per say, it's being taken through the motions to demonstrate a response that it would give regardless of how the handler acted! 

I guess it's easier to nit pick and run with whatever opinion one forms from their initial reaction. 

What's frustrating is even though I've explained things multiple times the point is just completely lost on everyone who's been commenting! 

So here it is again. The handler/dog team works fine together. The dog will be in drive and engaged and the handler will be working well with the dog. The dog will ALL OF THE SUDDEN REACT! The handler/dog team will cease to continue with training.

THAT is what typically happens.

What is shown in the video is ONLY occurring because the focus of concern is the reaction. The dog will continue giving the shown reaction for the rest of the training session if it is continued. However, if the dog is redirected (such as in a game) the dog will go back into drive... however, the reaction might occur after one repetition or after ten, it's not predictable. 

Everything you claimed is happening MAY be happening in the video, but again, you're focusing on too much and not looking at the dogs body language. What you can't hear is the yelp, a dog that simply does not want to work is not going to yelp while taking a treat.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't think anyone knows what you are asking then. I took it as "why is he having this reaction? What is making him react this way" To know that, you would have to see what happened right before the INITIAL reaction.

I agree that it seems to be a training issue. Have the trainers tried stopping training before the dogs reacts this way? I saw that you said that sometimes the reaction is immediate. There are really too many variables to tell from a video. The dogs could even be reacting to something in the environment itself and then the continued work as seen in the video is making the problem worse. 

You said that none of the dogs EVER show this behavior at home? What about other places? If it is only during training, then it is definitely an association with the location/environment there.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Is the dog on a harness? It almost looks like the harness is bugging him. Do you usually do this exercise off leash? If the handler let go of the leash, where would the dog go? Back to the car? To the shade? Maybe he is hot, tired? Overwhelmed?

I once had a dog that used to run beside my bicycle for miles. She loved it, and would start out pulling me as fast as she could go. In appopriate areas, I would take her off-leash and sometimes, early on in the ride, she would slam on the brakes and refuse to go further. I never could figure out why she did this; I would say she was tired, hot, thirsty, or sore, but it usually occurred when she was relatively fresh. 

Anyway--for whatever reason, the dog is shutting down, and the handler's body language is not helping. Is this slouching over, reaching toward the dog, the way they usually interact?

I would love to see a video of the dog working high in drive, and then the sudden shut-down, to see if there are any triggers that can be spotted.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> I don't think anyone knows what you are asking then. I took it as "why is he having this reaction? What is making him react this way" To know that, you would have to see what happened right before the INITIAL reaction.
> 
> I agree that it seems to be a training issue. Have the trainers tried stopping training before the dogs reacts this way? I saw that you said that sometimes the reaction is immediate. There are really too many variables to tell from a video. The dogs could even be reacting to something in the environment itself and then the continued work as seen in the video is making the problem worse.
> 
> You said that none of the dogs EVER show this behavior at home? What about other places? If it is only during training, then it is definitely an association with the location/environment there.


I take complete fault at the confusion  I'm just getting frustrated because I can't take back the video because you can't edit posts after a certain amount of time has gone by.. I need to get a better video! That way the responses will be more helpful! 

If I could get a video then it would be easier to see what happens leading up to and right before the reaction -- then it'd be easier to stop training for awhile. Right now, it's very unpredictable 

I do think it may have something to do with the environment -- and I do agree continuing training (in any way) is making it worse (continued training is not done other than for the purpose of that video)

The other dogs -- one will shut down and react to taking treats no matter where he is. The other does it primarily at home, but has shown the reaction a couple times at trials.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Is the dog on a harness? It almost looks like the harness is bugging him. Do you usually do this exercise off leash? If the handler let go of the leash, where would the dog go? Back to the car? To the shade? Maybe he is hot, tired? Overwhelmed?
> 
> I once had a dog that used to run beside my bicycle for miles. She loved it, and would start out pulling me as fast as she could go. In appopriate areas, I would take her off-leash and sometimes, early on in the ride, she would slam on the brakes and refuse to go further. I never could figure out why she did this; I would say she was tired, hot, thirsty, or sore, but it usually occurred when she was relatively fresh.
> 
> ...


He is on a harness because the reactions first started occurring while he was on a collar so he was moved to a padded harness in hopes they would stop (they didn't)

The work is done both on and off leash. After the initial reaction the dog stays with the handler, but lags behind even if he's off leash. So something caused him to react, and he seems unsure, but he's not willing to completely leave the handler. I'm starting to side with maybe he's overwhelmed?

I am going to attempt to get a better video -- I think it would be of much more use! Since the behavior is unpredictable it's just difficult to know when to record, so it may take some time to get it on disk.

Obviously there's something happening that I am not seeing -- but it's happening initially while he's in drive and then he carries it over and continues reacting even once he's out of drive -- it's like he's anticipating the aversive to occur again and is acting similarly even though I doubt he's being injured during the video.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> The work is done both on and off leash. After the initial reaction the dog stays with the handler, but lags behind even if he's off leash. So something caused him to react, and he seems unsure, but he's not willing to completely leave the handler. I'm starting to side with maybe he's overwhelmed?


How old is the dog, and how long has he been in training? What is he in training for... obedience, agility, etc.?

It does look like a classical case of a dog shutting down, but I don't know the reason. Will anything snap him out of this behavior? Obviously food doesn't, but would a toy, a game, something exciting?

If this were my dog, I would practice a down-stay when this behavior begins. Since he seems sluggish and unwilling to work anyway, it seems like a good time to do that. Perhaps in that position, he can relax a little and get over whatever is bothering him.

That, of course, would not solve the problem but would at least give something constructive to do while figuring it out.

Also, I just wanted to say, I totally understand what you were trying to do with the video--to show a picture of a behavior. Everyone seems to think you were filming an actual training session, and everyone wants to tell you how the "training" is wrong... very frustrating! I am sure I'm not the only person who gets what you were trying to do, but I just wanted to let you know at least one person does.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Freestep said:


> How old is the dog, and how long has he been in training? What is he in training for... obedience, agility, etc.?
> 
> It does look like a classical case of a dog shutting down, but I don't know the reason. Will anything snap him out of this behavior? Obviously food doesn't, but would a toy, a game, something exciting?
> 
> ...


I seriously appreciate that! Really really!

The dog is going on 4 years (Jan 1st), has been training since he was 8wks, but never worked on focused heeling. He will heel without attention well (but he hasn't been rewarded for that behavior in forever long so he's not had to take a treat in motion like he's been having to do recently). A lot of his training is basic since we've done a lot of herding with him instead of training him to compete in obedience. He has a near perfect recall, a very long stay (sit and down), and can run a basic agility course. He's currently being trained for Rally (so we've been working on more focus)

I think the down stay is a good idea. That way training is being ended because he's had a bad reaction, but he's doing something that doesn't require he be continuously put in a situation where he repeats the behavior (which I still don't know if he's hurt each time, or if he's anticipating he's going to get hurt again)

What we've been doing is redirecting him or giving him a break. I don't really think the games help out that much, and giving him a break could become habitual, so the down stay is perfect.

Thank you


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I disagree, I would engage the dog in something he enjoys and then start training again, but change it up....as I posted above if something isn't working change the technique. 


> the dog training is being ended because he's had a bad reaction


This won't help anything but re-enforce the fact that the dog ended it on his terms. He is getting away with it and it doesn't encourage work ethic, IMO. Instead if you played with him, and worked on positions/etc the training didn't end, just changed. A down stay for a couple minutes doesn't hurt anything, but the dog needs to know that he doesn't get away with not complying because he avoids.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I disagree, I would engage the dog in something he enjoys and then start training again, but change it up....as I posted above if something isn't working change the technique.


I think OP mentioned that they've tried that, but without success.



> This won't help anything but re-enforce the fact that the dog ended it on his terms. He is getting away with it and it doesn't encourage work ethic, IMO. Instead if you played with him, and worked on positions/etc the training didn't end, just changed. A down stay for a couple minutes doesn't hurt anything, but the dog needs to know that he doesn't get away with not complying because he avoids.


It's a really delicate situation. You can't *force* a dog to work once he's shut down; it has to be his idea, so the key is motivation. If nothing seems to motivate him, it seems a down-stay would be a way to continue training without putting any pressure on him.

I feel bad for the dog because, for whatever reason, he's not enjoying his training... and I feel bad for the handler because it's a really frustrating issue to deal with. Could be the dog just doesn't have the desired work ethic, that he simply wants to quit and is being stubborn about it. Part of me says this dog should be a pet, and part of me wants to see the handler get him through this. OP said the dog has a lot of drive initially, so it seems there must be an answer. 

At 4 years of age, it doesn't seem like this would be a "phase" he'd grow out of. Has the dog always exhibited this behavior, or is it something new?


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## Tammy GSD (Dec 26, 2010)

Several people have tried to help but you are ignoring them and saying "no one is listening" but it seems just as frustrating when you don't seem to be listening, too.

Some idea that were thrown out, just by me, as POSSIBILITIES ONLY for the dog to all of a sudden do this behavior, as I am not there and am not anyone's anyone...wants to run with food (hoarder) but can't, doesn't like handler (has handler hurt the dog or yelled or anything similar), is bored, has been doing it for too long, has been forced to continue on at least one occasion when it was "quitting time" which put the whole thing in a "bad experience to avoid" category. All of these things COULD make a dog all-of-a-sudden stop working, yelp, and try to avoid the handler. 

I know I am nobody but I was trying to help and was not ignoring what you kept saying over and over.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Freestep said:


> It's a really delicate situation. You can't *force* a dog to work once he's shut down; it has to be his idea, so the key is motivation.


Very true. 



Freestep said:


> Part of me says this dog should be a pet, and part of me wants to see the handler get him through this. OP said the dog has a lot of drive initially, so it seems there must be an answer.
> 
> At 4 years of age, it doesn't seem like this would be a "phase" he'd grow out of. Has the dog always exhibited this behavior, or is it something new?


This behavior is new, he's not been exhibiting it for that long -- however, it seems to be getting worse, not better... so I really need to figure out why it is occurring.

I'm not sure he would be happy being just a pet. He really does have a lot of drive, and for the most part is very happy working. I was working another dog in agility and they were working on the tunnel and chutes and the Aussie just watched (he's never been through a tunnel, never really had much exposure to agility equipment) ... after seeing the other dog go through the tunnel and get a reward he took it upon himself to go through the tunnel, come seek out his reward, and as soon as he got it he went through again... and again, and again! He's a clever dog, and he tends to 'over do' a lot of things :/ he also can't stand to not be working if another dog is working.



Tammy GSD said:


> Several people have tried to help but you are ignoring them and saying "no one is listening" but it seems just as frustrating when you don't seem to be listening, too.
> 
> Some idea that were thrown out, just by me, as POSSIBILITIES ONLY for the dog to all of a sudden do this behavior, as I am not there and am not anyone's anyone...wants to run with food (hoarder) but can't, doesn't like handler (has handler hurt the dog or yelled or anything similar), is bored, has been doing it for too long, has been forced to continue on at least one occasion when it was "quitting time" which put the whole thing in a "bad experience to avoid" category. All of these things COULD make a dog all-of-a-sudden stop working, yelp, and try to avoid the handler.
> 
> I know I am nobody but I was trying to help and was not ignoring what you kept saying over and over.


Yes, but there are also some people here who are being very unhelpful. I shouldn't have said 'everybody' and that came more so from frustration... 

He doesn't run off to eat, he never has. In fact, he would rather be right by the food source to make sure he doesn't 'miss out'

He absolutely adores the handler. Seriously. And no, there has never been any aversive in training, he's not even had behaviors proofed with punishment!

I doubt he's bored, if you read everything I've tried to explain about this dog -- he's not one to get bored. However, even if he had a stopping point, some times the reaction happens at the very beginning of a training session :/


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> I doubt he's bored, if you read everything I've tried to explain about this dog -- he's not one to get bored. However, even if he had a stopping point, some times the reaction happens at the very beginning of a training session :/


Does he do this everywhere, or just on this particular field?

Could be he is sensing something "off"... a scent in the air ... a sound ... something that is bothering him. Is the training field near anything noisy?

A couple of years ago, my GSD was suddenly acting nervous and anxious whenever she was in my yard. They had been blowing up gopher holes in the orchards surrounding, which makes my Akbash dog freak out, but Luka had never been bothered by such noises. She actually loads on gunfire since we used it during protection training. I figured maybe she was picking up on Whaley's anxiety. She was fine while in the house, or out and about, but just when she was in the backyard, she seemed oddly ill at ease and wanted to come inside. At 8 years of age, this was new behavior and it had gone on for several weeks. I considered that she could be losing her hearing, as this sometimes makes a dog anxious, but she could still hear a piece of kibble falling into a bowl from across the property. 

Suddenly, early one morning, we were awakened by fire engines--the grooming shop on my property had caught fire. The fire inspector could not determine a cause; after ruling out everything else, he figured it must have been some bad wiring inside the wall that could have been smoldering for days or even weeks and we never would have known about it.

Interestingly, after the shop burned down, Luka's behavior went back to normal.

Coincidence? Maybe. But who knows what dogs can sense, that we can't.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Any chance the handler is shocking the dog when he gives treats? Like sliding his feet on the ground and then "snap" the dog gets a shock? Kinda far fetched, but thought I would throw it out there.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have a couple of aussies, so am rather experienced with them..My female is VERY sensitive. She doesnt like to make a mistake, when she does, she tends to shut down. She needs constant UPBEAT enthusiasm, when making a mistake, a correction 'kills' her

Something no one's mentioned, and it may be 'nothing', is why use a long line? I know this video was to show the behavior and not a training session. But is the handler using a long line when training? Is he always holding the leash/line in his left hand? I'd switch hands, use a shorter leash, and rewards come from the hand closest the dog..

I would like to see a video of the dog doing basically the same thing, with no food, and HAPPY/ in drive just to compare. Handler standing straight up, on a 'mission'

Something else to consider, I see you said he loves herding, agility, high energy type activities, obedience routines can be really boring for some dogs, and he just may not be 'into' it..

BC's, same thing, I have found with my aussie, and friends bc's, when they shut down, that's it, they shut down. "harsh" even verbal stuff, can tune them out faster than I don't what.

My aussie, LOVES herding, was not really 'into' agility, LOVES obedience, but it has to be UP UP UP, with her, alot of hand holding (which I sooooo don't find with my gsds thank god!) and when they decide they don't want to do something, belive me they ain't gonna do it..


With that, I would really like to see a video of how he behaves when he's not shutting down/reacting..if you can get one)


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

e.rigby said:


> My question is "Why is the dog shutting down"


You're getting the answers you are because you are asking a question that cannot possibly be answered by what you provided. You are showing a behavior that is already happening, but not the moment in which the dog shut down...so what can people really tell you?

The best way for people to get the whole picture is film and show the entire training session, not the "after." Because the is not addressing the cause, only the end result.

Do evaluate the training...are these dogs being trained by the same individual? If so, I find it odd that 3 dogs are being trained by the same person and exhibiting the same thing and it NOT to be the training.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

e.rigby said:


> Right now, it's very unpredictable
> 
> .


Sounds like you need to video tape every training session, then.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

e.rigby said:


> I'm not really asking anything anymore  It just keeps getting replies  I think it would have been better to stick with the Aussie and BC communities for this because the breeds are so different. I also think, in general, the dif. breed owner's have drastically dif. styles of training... so where as the GSD people are focused on precision and qued in on lack of appropriate behavior on the dog's part... the Aussie/BC people qued in on the dog's body language specifically at the point where he reacted. .. if that makes any sense at all :/
> 
> Live and learn  I'll keep questions posted here specific to German Shepherds ... as in my own household my Shepherd is incredibly different in attitude/behavior/responsiveness to training than my Aussies!


And just remember, just like breeders can sometimes be "kennel blind," dog enthusiats can sometimes be "breed blind." There is nothing wrong with getting opinions for people who train different dogs even if you don't like it...you never know, might learn something.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I have a couple of aussies, so am rather experienced with them..My female is VERY sensitive. She doesnt like to make a mistake, when she does, she tends to shut down. She needs constant UPBEAT enthusiasm, when making a mistake, a correction 'kills' her


I have a dog like that too! If he shuts down on me, all I have to do is change my attitude and he's back to working.



JakodaCD OA said:


> Something no one's mentioned, and it may be 'nothing', is why use a long line? I know this video was to show the behavior and not a training session. But is the handler using a long line when training? Is he always holding the leash/line in his left hand? I'd switch hands, use a shorter leash, and rewards come from the hand closest the dog..


The long line was just what was on the dog prior to the original reaction (though he's also reacted with a reg. length leash as well as while off leash). At the time of the original reaction he (the dog) was dragging the long line around while working -- and there was a combination of commands being practiced (stand/stays, long down/stays, recalls) but the only one he's ever 'reacted' strangely to are the commands where he is treated while in motion



JakodaCD OA said:


> I would like to see a video of the dog doing basically the same thing, with no food, and HAPPY/ in drive just to compare. Handler standing straight up, on a 'mission'
> 
> Something else to consider, I see you said he loves herding, agility, high energy type activities, obedience routines can be really boring for some dogs, and he just may not be 'into' it..
> 
> ...


This isn't a obedience video ( http://youtu.be/J5RbXsZm5e0 )... and it's very old (back when he was around a year old and just starting herding (so he's very green).. but notice that the instructor can hit the ground and push him away with the stick and he isn't phased all too much by it! That's typically what he's like when he's in drive. So I find it completely odd he's doing what he's doing and am at a loss for what exactly is causing it... but everyone who's mentioned the need for a better video is right... I, also, need to be able to watch it over again and again to better be able to understand what exactly is going on.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> are these dogs being trained by the same individual? If so, I find it odd that 3 dogs are being trained by the same person and exhibiting the same thing and it NOT to be the training.


No, the dogs are being trained by different people, all using pos. reinforcement and during the time of training when the reaction occurs there are no collar corrections (which are the only form of corrections used -- and only used by the BC people)



Freestep said:


> Does he do this everywhere, or just on this particular field?


The Aussie has done it while out on walks at the park and while practicing in a couple different locations away from home. At home he's rock solid and nothing seems to phase him. In fact, I've even tried to create a reaction (by messing with his feet, mouth, pretending to hit him and bending over him in a 'dominating' way) and he could care less!

The other two dogs are not mine -- I know one personally and the other through an online forum and FB. They display the behavior at home as well as out in public. I originally thought there was a connecting factor -- and maybe there still is, but it's all around strange. I will also need to pay more attention to the environment.



wyominggrandma said:


> Any chance the handler is shocking the dog when he gives treats? Like sliding his feet on the ground and then "snap" the dog gets a shock? Kinda far fetched, but thought I would throw it out there.


I've considered that, and it's a possibility... I just know the handler has never noticed a shock, and when he's done it for me (react) I've never noticed a shock. I've also never been able to pinpoint what I was doing -- and while watching him with someone else, it's the same thing.. hard to tell just what is going on 



GSDElsa said:


> And just remember, just like breeders can sometimes be "kennel blind," dog enthusiats can sometimes be "breed blind." There is nothing wrong with getting opinions for people who train different dogs even if you don't like it...you never know, might learn something.


Which is why I posted here... but like another member rightly pointed out... there were some who were so fixated on the 'training' they perceived to be going on in the video they weren't looking past that to see the dog reaction for what it really was. Also, when I tried to explain to them and then re-explain they still wouldn't give it up. For those who are giving helpful ideas I am grateful.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> but the only one he's ever 'reacted' strangely to are the commands where he is treated while in motion


Maybe don't treat him while in motion, wait until a halt/sit or an exercise out of motion, and see what happens...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Freestep said:


> Maybe don't treat him while in motion, wait until a halt/sit or an exercise out of motion, and see what happens...


this is important, the reward should come when the exercise is complete, not during


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Freestep said:


> Maybe don't treat him while in motion, wait until a halt/sit or an exercise out of motion, and see what happens...


this! The reward should come when the exercise is complete, not during


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> this is important, the reward should come when the exercise is complete, not during


Not necessarily! I often reward while in motion. If you only reward on halts, you can end up with a dog that only gives you intense focused attention on the halts.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, in_ this_ situation, the reward isn't doing any good during motion...sorry for my double post above.

Marker training or clicker may work for this dog, too. When you mark or click there is a couple seconds before the reward comes. See if the dog 'shuts down'?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i'm thinking there's something wrong with
the treats not what kind or size. 



doggiedad said:


> i would check the treats. taste one.





JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> doggiedad!
> 
> Though I agree - what kind of treat, how small, etc, - if it needs to be chewed it could be too big.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Danierra I think your analogy with the cat ate a bird , what bird did it eat was so funny . 

Okay back to tedious answers then. I think I have some qualifications in making comments about training, having had multi high in trials , Dog World Awards, top ranking dogs under CKC, Obed Grand Victrix 199.5 / 200, french ring , schutzhund and all the dogs I prepare for different service. I have also had private sessions with competitors going for "top dog" helping them with timing , bringing sparkle into the dogs performance, footing , body posture etc. Different breeds, one being a fabulous (for me) Nova Scotia Duck Toller . He was brilliant for me . For the owner , she had no timing , had lead feet, was inhibited and unexpressive and the dog mirrored her style , for lack of a better word.

The behaviour was being reinforced. Even if you only did it for the video. Remember , everyone, that it is not one dog , but three with the same behavior.

The moment the behavior showed its head -- immediately you should have done something to bring about the desired response . Don't ever allow that response to happen . Here in the video you are reinforcing it , look see there he did it , and oh look there it is again, dang he did it again. Probably a dozen times . 

A dog lives in the moment. You don't need to psychoanalyse things -- move on , get the response you want, be creative. 

I think if the dog were off lead he would be running away , avoiding the work .

Use your voice. Give some encouragement as the effort is made trying to figure out what you want. Dog is showing intention in trying , acknowledge it , hey ! that's a good guy, oh !? how's this , and the dog improves . And when he is where you want him, That's it , that's good . 
Voice can be so much more immediate than a treat. Doesn't hurt the teeth or get dropped. There is no connection between handler and dog. The dog never looks at the person . There is a shut out, and with that I am providing this interview of the trainer of "Eddie" the jack russle of Frasier Dialogue With Eddie | Dog Star Daily

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

patient says dr. when I hit this hammer on my thumb my thumb hurts. 

dr says -- stop hitting your thumb, you'll be fine.

doing the same thing is not going to give you a different result.
Carmen


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Carmen, you may very well have respectable credentials, but again, you are missing the point and offering help that is not useful. If you think it is, I can't argue with that -- but if I'm saying I can't use it I would hope you could at least drop your attempts and try to help someone who might be a bit more receptive. I truly think you're more concerned about having something to say than being a bit more conscientious of the needs of the poster (me).. with everything that's been said, and then restated in so many ways -- it would seem the point was made... however, you talk about doing the same thing and not getting different results -- I really do hope you can follow your own advice! 

More pointedly your posts seem to want to point out flaws where they don't need to be pointed out. You attack the way the handler is engaging the dog, you attack the fact that the dog is continued to be made to work... I find these both to be moot points considering they were only shown to pinpoint the reaction and are not the norm. If you wish to call me a liar and not believe me -- then no matter how much I try to plead my case you're going to be deaf to my defense. 

I've had some great responses already. I appreciate the time you've taken to read my initial post, but I don't agree with your outtake on the situation and I don't agree with your views. I've already explained the situation and if you want to fixate on a moment frozen in time -- I don't know what else to say but I will just take the suggestions of the other posters.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

e.rigby said:


> I'm not really asking anything anymore  It just keeps getting replies  I think it would have been better to stick with the Aussie and BC communities for this because the breeds are so different. I also think, in general, the dif. breed owner's have drastically dif. styles of training... so where as the GSD people are focused on precision and qued in on lack of appropriate behavior on the dog's part... the Aussie/BC people qued in on the dog's body language specifically at the point where he reacted. .. if that makes any sense at all :/
> 
> Live and learn  I'll keep questions posted here specific to German Shepherds ... as in my own household my Shepherd is incredibly different in attitude/behavior/responsiveness to training than my Aussies!


Getting ready to leave for work so havent' read through all the replys so sorry if someone already suggested this but,
With the border collies I have owned over the years and worked with if this is something that is happening after working with the dog for a while then he shuts down as you say, I can tell you if a BC is working and your getting a good response you can't keep going over an exercise like you can with some other breeds repeat it one or two times but then stop and go onto something else. 
For example if you are training sit, you tell it to "sit" the dog does it, so you repeat it 2 times, stop there, if you keep repeating it a BC will decide "hmm he keeps asking me to do this so he must be wanting something besides sit so I'll walk backwards instead" hope that makes since, BC's love to work but repeating things really bores them, and they will mentally check out so to speak and think of something else to do.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Franksmom on the bc behavior outlook..I've seen it happen as well.

I watched the herding vid,,(good one btw!),,and my sensitive aussie turns into a 'beast' on sheep , very very amped up, and 'into' it as well, you could also smack a stick and it wouldn't phase her one little bit if she was on sheep.

Smack a stick otherwise, and she turns into a marshmellow

With that, and ruling out environment as one suggests..And also ruling out the 'shock' thing,,know it's happened to me and Jynx will back right off..I'm not sure of the shock thing, the handler is on grass , and it's happening everytime in motion,,so not sure I'd go with that theory tho a good one.

What I would try, is (as one suggested),,no treat until the exercise is finished. Go back to short FAST UPBEAT exercises, start with alot of physical interaction before you start, to amp him up, do a quick fast, heel, stop, physical interaction, treat..

What I saw in the first vid of the behavior, is a dog who is stressed, he's just doing it because he's doing it, avoiding what is asked of him..

Jynx as I said before, was not really into agility at all, we'd get to that start line and I could see the stress, looking away, yawning, something that I did to set her on fire was blow in her ear LOL,,oh my god , turned her into a raving racing looney..She still didn't like agility much, but she took off like a match was lit under her butt and a grin on her aussie face..

Just some ideas throwing out there


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Franksmom said:


> Getting ready to leave for work so havent' read through all the replys so sorry if someone already suggested this but,
> With the border collies I have owned over the years and worked with if this is something that is happening after working with the dog for a while then he shuts down as you say, I can tell you if a BC is working and your getting a good response you can't keep going over an exercise like you can with some other breeds repeat it one or two times but then stop and go onto something else.
> For example if you are training sit, you tell it to "sit" the dog does it, so you repeat it 2 times, stop there, if you keep repeating it a BC will decide "hmm he keeps asking me to do this so he must be wanting something besides sit so I'll walk backwards instead" hope that makes since, BC's love to work but repeating things really bores them, and they will mentally check out so to speak and think of something else to do.


I did, I thought. My mix was in a CGC/TDI class and we were doing the loose leash healing which...she never leaves my side - so she could not figure out exactly what I wanted/what I was trying to prompt her to do. So for our pattern she started doing circles around me (not OCD ones - just pretty loops), then when that didn't seem to be it, she would do circles at my side as we were heeling - then she just stopped and looked at me like WHAT?!?!?! Meanwhile, the class was in hysterics because even though she was doing all the dance moves (I call her Liza bc she's like Liza Minelli on booze/pills) her loose lead was the best of the group - no pulling. Mission accomplished? I absolutely love her and the mix - so different - I call her my monkey smart dog. (ETA - we almost failed the test though - she was perfect until she smelled graham crackers in one of those cloth things hanging off a walker - she has a great leave it so I caught on to it as she was starting to stand up)

I still don't get the question being asked though, I guess.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Sorry Jean, I unfairly grouped everyone in the same category. 

Thanks for everyone that's been offering useful advice! Since he (the Aussie) works well at home, the majority of the practice will be done there; and when we're out we'll keep the exercises short and to the point (just to work in an area with distractions).

For the BCs, I'm going to pass along the information and see what works. I've already seen how doing super short sessions with one is really helping. Yesterday we were at an agility trial watching (not competing) and my friend had her BC and he was all about doing what she wanted him to... however, he started to slow down and when that happened I told her to just stop the training and ignore him and moments later he was amped up again. The hardest part with him will be in teaching something new... but short quick sessions will hopefully help with that as well. He also really loves tug, so ending a session with a game might be very beneficial as well!

@Jean, I have a dog that will do random things like that when I ask her for something and she doesn't get it... I've never had her go all out and put on a complete show though


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Interesting thread, but I can't see the video to join the party


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

offering help that is not useful.

xxxxxxxx why in the world at 3:30 in the morning with a full and busy day ahead of me , getting up , and on the road by 7:00 would I waste my time to offer help that was useless. 


I would hope you could at least drop your attempts and try to help someone who might be a bit more receptive.

xxxxxxx freudian slip . "someone who might be a bit more receptive".


I truly think you're more concerned about having something to say than being a bit more conscientious of the needs of the poster (me).. 

xxxxxxxx I have nothing to gain by this. I saw a dog repeating an action and getting rewarded for doing it. 


You attack the way the handler is engaging the dog, you attack the fact that the dog is continued to be made to work...

xxxxxxxxx there is no attack. When you are working with an animal , dog , horse, it is a partnership. You see it with horses when you have a hack rider and a person who has "unity" (Tom Dorrance Tom Dorrance Master Horseman Tom Dorrance: A Most Extraordinary Horseman (Part 1) - Mike Thomas Horsemen ) Pat Parelli Parelli Horse Training | Natural Horse Training | Parelli


I find these both to be moot points considering they were only shown to pinpoint the reaction and are not the norm.

xxxxxxxxxx I understand that but the more you repeated the action , even if just for the purpose of showing it , the more embedded the action became because it was rewarded.


I've had some great responses already.

xxxx yes you did 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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