# Off Leash K9 vs Michael Ellis



## Konathedog (Aug 1, 2016)

Was going to sign my GSD for Off Leash K9's Basic Obedience Package, but came across Michael Ellis on this forum and youtube.

Which one do you recommend? What's the difference between the two's philosophy?


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

I'm interested to hear the responses. I've met a trainer from Off Leash K9 where I live, but I'm skeptical of him and the program


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I have a very high opinion of Michael Ellis, but if you want to work with him directly you will have to take your dog and go to California. I am not too sure he even travels for seminars anymore, but I may be wrong about that.

The other guy, I don't know...slick website. Seems pretty into using e collars. I like E Collars but I would not let just anybody hold a remote for one of my dogs. In fact I would not let most people near the remote for my dogs.

This is my impression of Ellis: he really gets operant conditioning, he isn't into any faulty dominance theory. He knows what can go wrong with aversive tools and how to prevent that. He is awesome at motivating a dog to want to work and teaching behaviors in smaller pieces so the dog and person can get it and be successful. You'dd always get more out of a super motivated dog. I am sure there is a lot more to say about both of them but probably others will chime in soon


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

So, is Offleash k9 now a franchise like SMS?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Michael Ellis doesn't train dogs. He trains trainers. To complete his coursework you'll be spending in the neighborhood of 20k plus whatever it takes to get you to California and stay for a few weeks.

Good experience? Sure.

OLK9 will cost you closer to 2k and will train your dog for you and teach you how to handle him. 

Big difference.

Methodology wise with w collar they don't differ that much. Michael Ellis is much more into lure and shaping behaviors and lots of reward repetition before layering in prong and e collar pressure. I believe off leash is mostly leash and e collar pressure from the get go. They are trying to accomplish two different things though. Michael Ellis style training is for sport dogs and trying to get flashy behavior and OLK9 is just about training and getting control on a pet dog. There is a vast difference.

I have my pet commands that were trained with pressure for no or very little reward. They are performed calmly and without expectation of reward. The dogs don't get all excited rigid and wait to explode into whatever happens next. I don't like that in my everyday pet commands. 

The sport commands were trained with pressure and varying degrees of reward and they carry the expectation and energy of that with the behavior. They don't get used in everyday life with the dog though.

So really you have to ask yourself two major questions.

Do you want to learn to become a trainer and have this be your learning dog?

Or do you just want your dog to be trained and know how to get the behavior out of him under someone else's framework?

Olk9 is definitely cheaper and faster.

The Michael Ellis thing would be a journey and costly one at that but in the end you'd learn a lot.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm guessing for what you want, the ME school isn't exactly for you. Unless there's something I don't know about, its set up as courses with the idea of you becoming a trainer. Its not really for you to just take your dog and train him. I don't know the lady in Marin with the Off Leash business, but that's probably more what your looking for. You'd have to contact her and see.

Experience is what matters in dog training Milliegsd. The local franchisee may be a great trainer, or just someone who took a correspondence course. I like something verifiable, so I tend to prefer trainers with some amount of background in something formal.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

If you are thinking about ME - you could always try his business partner, Lisa Maze, who does more pet training. But I think I saw she was out of town right now (or leaving) so you may not get a fast response.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Thanks for verifying that Steve, the trainer in my area has a reputable background but I was curious since it seems like a big franchise if that makes it a bad thing


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## Konathedog (Aug 1, 2016)

thanks for the reply everyone. 

Is Michael's DVD any good?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

This is a 3yr old dog you haven't had for very long?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Re:

Michael Ellis school...it would not necessarily cost 20k. It is nearly that to do the immersion program but you can take individual courses for a lot less, and take whatever mostly applies to what you want to do with your dog.

The DVDs I have seen were very good.

I know Ellis trains sport dogs but my experience has been that pet dogs perform their little pet dog things much better with motivation like he teaches it. 

He also has an interactive course on Leerburg for 1500 which includes DVDs where you submit videos of yourself with your dog for his critique.

I like his philosophy, I like how he applies aversives. You do not have to be or want to be a dog trainer to attend his school. Says so right in the FAQs


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

1500 dollars for an online interactive course??? Holy thats more then I pay for an entire year of actual training. Sorry, that just sounds crazy to me.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> You do not have to be or want to be a dog trainer to attend his school. Says so right in the FAQs


But do you see anything under a thousand dollars for one week? Puppy development, 1wk, a grand. Motivation, 1wk, a grand. That's some motivation all right.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Yeah none of it is cheap. The interactice course is many months long so that is one thing. I know of another known name offering "train the trainer" for WAY more than what ME charges. Actually I can think of two


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

To be fair I was kinda playing Devil's advocate about ME school. If this person just wants a reasonably behaved pet then going all the way there is probably not at all what they are looking for.

Although I think most pet owners could learn something from his dvds.

Steve Strom, open a dog trainer school and retire!! Apparently it is lucrative


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> To be fair I was kinda playing Devil's advocate about ME school. If this person just wants a reasonably behaved pet then going all the way there is probably not at all what they are looking for.
> 
> Although I think most pet owners could learn something from his dvds.
> 
> Steve Strom, open a dog trainer school and retire!! Apparently it is lucrative


+1 :thumbup:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, retire. The magic word.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Re:
> 
> Michael Ellis school...it would not necessarily cost 20k. It is nearly that to do the immersion program but you can take individual courses for a lot less, and take whatever mostly applies to what you want to do with your dog.
> 
> ...


I have me a little pet dog, and yes, I want him working in 'drive' whenever I can. I DREAM of attending ME's school, and of course, that's all it would ever be. 
I wish he would cram all his 'pet dog friendly' wisdom into one dvd, in the meantime, I glean what I can from the free-stuff.

Does he have referrals for like-minded/ or graduated trainers?

I love his philosophy on dog training (and I watched the entire 1 hour on that).

But yes, if your idea of a pet dog is a dog that obeys with a sparkle in his eye, plays a mean game of tug, and wants to be engaged with you in a real and physical way, someone who trains like ME is a good option.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> 1500 dollars for an online interactive course??? Holy thats more then I pay for an entire year of actual training. Sorry, that just sounds crazy to me.


It isn't crazy. A good decoy for sport work will cost you between 50-150 dollars per day per dog. Most board and train programs will be 1000-3000 for month long programs. I'd say most people who get those programs may not benefit that much without 1 on 1 coaching. DVDs books and whatever are fine but there is no substitute for coaching and repetition. Take it from me we make it about as simple as it can be broken down for people on an already trained dog and most people still struggle. Trying to learn to train watching a DVD will not be easy.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Not for nothing but once you get your toes in the water and see what your dog can do and what you can get your dog to do....you might be inspired to go and compete at something when you weren't previously planning on it. 

I think everyone agrees that GSDS do better with mental adequate mental stimulation, exercise and a "job" of some sort. Schutzhund isn't for everybody but I am having fun doing Rally with mine, even my old lady.

We are also learning about and training tracking and dock diving hoping to compete or title at those too.

I was not planning on doing ANY of that with my young dog, but when you see them catching on and turning on and so happy, it is infectious. These days I am literally looking at our schedule to be sure he is getting enough time off.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

We? You have an online interactive course?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve are you talking to me? If you are I am not sure what I said but no, I don't have an online course lol


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ha no. Juan and myself is we. We do 5 days worth of handler sessions for people going home with dogs that have trained for a month on their pet behaviors and people often still struggle with very easy mechanics related to asking for and maintaining those commands even when it is broken down to its simplest form.

Learning how to put those behaviors on a dog is way way harder than maintaining it.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I said we as in me and my dog, are working at tracking and dock diving....?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, no. Baillif.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Ha no. Juan and myself is we. We do 5 days worth of handler sessions for people going home with dogs that have trained for a month on their pet behaviors and people often still struggle with very easy mechanics related to asking for and maintaining those commands even when it is broken down to its simplest form.
> 
> Learning how to put those behaviors on a dog is way way harder than maintaining it.


I was commenting specifically about online courses.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

gotcha


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The information could be worth that much if organized properly and it was being bought by the right person. People pay 200-300 for non working spots in seminars all the time just to hear someone talk dog training concepts that are usually simple.

I don't really know what's in that course pack so I can't speak on it directly but it doesn't sound crazy.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah for Ivan or Mario Verslype or someone with a record of success like that, specific to sport goals. Not potty training with so and so that used to train with the latest, newest, best trainer ever. Wait, we're kinda bouncing back and forth between sport and basic ob.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

A GSD owner at the club fly to ME for at least two of his courses. Tons of $$.

The dog was a nice WG line dog, real looker, nice drives, quality animal.

The dog was out of control, and the helper would not do bite work with him until he got into better control. This after the dog had been through two ME courses. 

I think, based on this, that ME might be a bit weak on control in dogs that need it?

The handler wasn't super strong, but she paid good money and had a very nice dog. No nerve issues or otherwise so nothing holding him back aside from handling. 

I think ME is a very nice guy and a good trainer, but I am not sure you get more out of going to his course than you would going to a good IPO club. But that is the only experience I have with his courses, outside of getting a bunch of his DVDs second hand. I watched them all but, they really varied in quality and some put me to sleep quite literally. It's very hard to learn dog training from a DVD.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It says more about the handler than ME tbh

I know tons of handlers that work with really good training directors or decoys that have crap results because they don't put what they're being taught into action with the necessary stick toitness or consistency. This is less a reflection of the people they work with and more on the handler.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

My GSD and I were at ME's school for the 2-week OB Intensive course back in 2010. Totally worth it to me. I was a newbie to training then, but we were already in a PSA club for about 7 months, I had basic understanding of marker training, and I watched ME's power of food and power of tug DVDs before I started his course. 

During the course, ME spent quite a bit of time talking about operant conditioning, looking at things from a dog's point of view, desensitization, counter-conditioning, how to minimize conflict during training...etc. He taught us how to build engagement, teach attention heel, loose leash walk, sit/down/stand using luring, recall (we practiced restrained recalls), how to fade out the lure, when to add correction, and how to do it fairly. 

I don't think the course benefited my GSD that much, she was not a good sports candidate to begin with (we originally got her as a pet), but it definitely gave me a better understanding of training in general. My husband and I started fostering for different rescues shortly after I came back from this course. What I learned from ME's school really gave us the confidence to work with some of the more difficult dogs/different behavior issues, thanks to the foster dogs, I also got to practice a lot of ME's techniques.

ME's school will not train your dog for you, it teaches you all the skills/concepts you need to be a better handler for your dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Baillif said:


> It says more about the handler than ME tbh
> 
> I know tons of handlers that work with really good training directors or decoys that have crap results because they don't put what they're being taught into action with the necessary stick toitness or consistency. This is less a reflection of the people they work with and more on the handler.


Well, its tougher to point the finger that way when you have a club and your working with people trying to go from nothing to titles. 4 wks of concept, go have fun makes that a lot easier.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It's not about fun. It's about being super serious and putting more pressure on your dog than overbearing parents with unrealistic expectations do on their kids.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Michael Ellis doesn't train dogs. He trains trainers. To complete his coursework you'll be spending in the neighborhood of 20k plus whatever it takes to get you to California and stay for a few weeks.
> 
> Good experience? Sure.
> 
> ...


 Thank You! Now I understand what my issue with him was. ANd apparently it was simple not my world! So now I can do what I always have done ... listen and share his lectures that I find applicable and stop trying to get on his case. 

Job well done sir! 

Would have been a Houndie but I think you already go one??


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah people have to be careful when they watch Michael Ellis videos on YouTube or beginning level DVDs because the luring and shaping phase of things is a very very very early part of the process that gives way to pressure and corrections to finally finish the behavior. If you haven't paid for finishing series DVDs you can't claim to fully understand anything. You've only seen the start not the finish. 

What's easily available on YouTube is the least objectionable part of the process. It's part of a marketing strategy. 

What Michael Ellis does is not unique to dog training. Tons of people lure and shape and layer pressure in the same way. There is nothing special about what he does except for the fact he is intelligent and can speak clearly and fluently and break down the science behind it in a way new people can understand.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> It's not about fun. It's about being super serious and putting more pressure on your dog than overbearing parents with unrealistic expectations do on their kids.


 Lol, yeah. Ok.


Baillif said:


> Yeah people have to be careful when they watch Michael Ellis videos on YouTube or beginning level DVDs because the luring and shaping phase of things is a very very very early part of the process that gives way to pressure and corrections to finally finish the behavior. If you haven't paid for finishing series DVDs you can't claim to fully understand anything. You've only seen the start not the finish.
> 
> What's easily available on YouTube is the least objectionable part of the process. It's part of a marketing strategy.
> 
> What Michael Ellis does is not unique to dog training. Tons of people lure and shape and layer pressure in the same way. There is nothing special about what he does except for the fact he is intelligent and can speak clearly and fluently and break down the science behind it in a way new people can understand.


This is more of what I'm talking about. More the business model vs a club setting. The difference between training with someone through everything that comes up compared to an expensive 2 weeks that gives an impression of being something that it isn't. Then its pretty easy to be given credit for success with deniability built in for failure.People go home lighter in the wallet and on their own. 

I'm not talking about only IPO clubs either. AKC obedience groups are a better value. In general 8wks for about 150 dollars. Move through a couple levels and then to smaller group in that club for more serious formal training. 

I just don't see it as worth the money to get a lecture on operant conditioning and fading lures. I just don't see it as being that much more then the free Youtube videos. I understand not everyone has access to all the options we have in this area, and its their money. Just my opinion on the costs.


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