# Was this Aggression, and/or is it fixable? (moved from Gen Info)



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I feel like we are spiraling downward at an uncontrollable speed. Between the recent many health issues Titan has displayed to the random "I'm not listening to you" episodes to the back tracking on simple OB and now to nipping someone. 

Some background:
Any time we are off lead and someone approaches or we are going to meet the group, he generally greets everyone the same... with excitedness and barking.. always barking. It's about the only time he barks obsessively outside the home.. when he meets people. Until recently he has always just been excited.. once he meets said person.. he gets all hyped up and tries to play and we play and all is well. A few weeks ago, we were ending a search and one of the other handlers, whom I had never met before was approaching us and Titan stopped to look at me and her.. his way of "Can I go meet her?" which he always does before meeting someone. So as normal I said "ok, go say hi" Which I always say when we meet new people. Only this time his "excited" bark had a more aggressive tone in it and scared the living daylights out of this poor woman. That was enough for me. He was no longer allowed to meet people off lead. Too close to comfort for me, and since then has been leashed when meeting people.

This incident today:
We were at SAR training this morning. We train at a college campus and it's not uncommon for Titan and I to be approached by joggers and walkers. We've been there training for 2 years with no issues. He does get overly excited when people approach us so I always leash when we are being approached or he isn't in a search. Today in particular we were approached by an elderly couple who he had met last week and he was thrilled to see them again. After intro, he was off lead playing with no problem. We were approached later by a female jogger who saw Titan and wanted to make sure it was ok that she be here. Titan was leashed and he was VERY intrigued by her, wanted to meet her but she took off before anything. When he was unleashed to start our search he maybe looked back once but was put to work and never made a second thought.

After training we had gone for a hike through the woods to search a lost radio. He was off lead and was sticking with me as always. When we got to the open field, there was a man walking toward us. Neither myself or my back up knew him, regardless I grabbed Titan to put him on lead, who was already in "Alert" mode, and as I grabbed to leash him, he ripped out of my hands and took off aggressively at this man. I mean I have never seen him act that way toward anyone, ever. He jumped up, the man blocked him, Titan jumped again growling and nipped his side. (meanwhile I was running toward him trying to call Titan off.) When I finally got over there, Titan stopped and came and sat next to me like he did nothing. This man was scared out of his mind.. rightly so. He said he was fine and Titan didn't break skin and pretty much just so scared that he wanted to get away, and I didn't blame him. There was a verbal correction involved immediately following the incident but I was more wanting to make sure that the man was ok.

I got back to base and told my trainer exactly what happened. He has been working with us for over 2 years and was so surprised to hear it. Did warn me though that with this incident I have one more shot at SAR. If it happens again, I am out, which I undoubtedly agree with. This is not a job Titan can do if he can't approach strangers or let them approach him. We do a lot of wandering victim cases here and that's just not something he can do if he is going to bite someone coming toward him. My trainer also thinks with Titan's recent medical issues ( http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...artial-seizures-muscle-spasm-weight-loss.html ), that it could be health related and wants me to call the vet.

SO where do I go from here? My trainer said I was welcome back but I have to have an e collar on hand and do a lot of work with him before they will trust him again. But I am terrified to go back. Only because I don't want this to ever happen again, but I don't know how to fix that since he's never done that before.

Oh.. and just fyi.. not sure how much it matters, but my back up for the search, who was with me, is also my roommate who helped me raise Titan, so she has been a steady part of his life, she is pregnant. So something made me wonder if it was a protective instinct sort of thing.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> he generally greets everyone the same... with excitedness and barking..





> one of the other handlers, whom I had never met before was approaching us and Titan stopped to look at me and her.. his way of "Can I go meet her?" which he always does before meeting someone. *So as normal I said "ok, go say hi" Which I always say when we meet new people.* Only this time his "excited" bark had a more aggressive tone in it and scared the living daylights out of this poor woman.


I don't really understand why the dog is encouraged to act like this in the first place. To me it is nurturing excitement for no reason. 

How about, 'No dog I do the introducing around here not you'.

Why let the dog introduce himself first? 

Basically it sounds like the dog has a lack of discipline. At his age he should be mellowing a bit and getting very used to his rules and boundaries.

You need to instill these rules and boundaries. Now you've seen some behavior you don't like and which is possibly dangerous. It is due to the dogs sense of freedom and lack of discipline.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I guess in his younger years we did greeting the proper way. He wasn't off lead and people came to us or I approached them and I greeted them. I suppose when he because solid on OB and recall it just became the new way. We did a lot of off lead work and he'd always stop before going to meet approaching people and because he had never been any type of an issue I never stopped that. Which learning now.. I should have. Since I've gotten back from deployment and since we moved he has started testing me in OB and greeting people has become more excitable for him causing me to start leashing him more.. and seeking out another trainer. 

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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I have absolutely no experience with SAR. I read all of your post and the question I have is 'why does he need to meet and greet people and dogs?'

Is this part of SAR training? I would of thought it far better to train him to ignore outside stimuli and concentrate on his task of searching.

I have a male that imo focuses a little too much for my liking on other dogs, I have always and am more so now encouraging him to ignore.

I wonder if your allowing him to greet all the time has allowed him to make decisions on who is and who is not a threat.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Harry and Lola said:


> I have absolutely no experience with SAR. I read all of your post and the question I have is 'why does he need to meet and greet people and dogs?'
> 
> Is this part of SAR training? I would of thought it far better to train him to ignore outside stimuli and concentrate on his task of searching.
> 
> ...


That is a very great possibility. I'll start with that it's not a SAR requirement for him to greet everyone. Only that he be friendly if he does meet another human. Dogs, not really a worry but we do run into a large amount of people on training searches and on real ones and it is encouraged that when we are there, that if they show interest in the person, to meet them if they want... that is when they are not working. And when titan has been "put to work" he listens to me while we are on a search. He is interested in meeting people, but hasn't yet taken off when we are working. These incidents have only happened while we are walking to our location or from it where he gets excited.. 

This issue in respect to SAR is that he has been given range to greet people on his own... my fault.. completely.. only that was when he wasn't a threat.. Now that he has nipped someone who wasn't a threat and was just walking brings up the question of will he do that to a victim we are looking for who is wandering in the woods? 

I am more at a place where I don't know where to go from here. I recognize the fact that he has been given too much freedom in respect to greeting strangers, but how do I fix it you know?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Don't beat yourself up over this, but what an eye-opener. I guess Titan needs to learn an emergency down, and definitely tightening up on his recall. You're lucky the guy was so easygoing about it.

I agree with MadLab, I think letting Titan get so excited with greetings was where you went wrong. It's not too late to fix this though. If he wants to greet, he needs to show calm behavior first. Maybe he doesn't even want to greet? Maybe he just was enjoying the barking and charging, and this nip is now showing us that?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> Don't beat yourself up over this, but what an eye-opener. I guess Titan needs to learn an emergency down, and definitely tightening up on his recall. You're lucky the guy was so easygoing about it.
> 
> I agree with MadLab, I think letting Titan get so excited with greetings was where you went wrong. It's not too late to fix this though. If he wants to greet, he needs to show calm behavior first. Maybe he doesn't even want to greet? Maybe he just was enjoying the barking and charging, and this nip is now showing us that?


I do agree.. he has been given too much range in greeting people and I guess when he wasn't doing harm I didn't see it as much of a problem. I was in contact with an amazing trainer before the holidays.. I think I should contact her and schedule a one on one. Just really freaked me out. I had never seen him like that.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Seeing an amazing trainer is never a bad thing

It's so easy to get into a habit, and when our dogs aren't causing any troubles then we can get complacent. I know all about that, lol. Be happy that this happened and nothing truly awful resulted from it. Good luck with your trainer. And there's also the weird health thing going on - maybe you should explore that too?


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Its a hard one, in my experience there are some people that project fear or the wrong energy and dogs pick up on it. I think you are doing the right thing with putting him on lead to meet new people, I would continue with this, and allow him a foot or 2 distance for a few seconds to minutes before judging the situation and going forward to where he can put his nose to the person. Sometimes it may be obvious that having distance is all he will get and requires, how this fits in with SAR is something you will have to discuss with your trainer. If he is not suitable for SAR, I'm sure there are other sports you could look into that may be better for him.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> Seeing an amazing trainer is never a bad thing
> 
> It's so easy to get into a habit, and when our dogs aren't causing any troubles then we can get complacent. I know all about that, lol. Be happy that this happened and nothing truly awful resulted from it. Good luck with your trainer. And there's also the weird health thing going on - maybe you should explore that too?


Yeah this is true.. and I will be the absolute first to admit that I have become complacent in some areas with him. I have talked for months now, since I have been back, that I need to meet up with a trainer for refreshers but made excuses every time. 

I am definitely going to bring that up to the vet though, she told me to keep an eye out for any noticeable neurological changes and this could be one.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Harry and Lola said:


> Its a hard one, in my experience there are some people that project fear or the wrong energy and dogs pick up on it. I think you are doing the right thing with putting him on lead to meet new people, I would continue with this, and allow him a foot or 2 distance for a few seconds to minutes before judging the situation and going forward to where he can put his nose to the person. Sometimes it may be obvious that having distance is all he will get and requires, how this fits in with SAR is something you will have to discuss with your trainer. If he is not suitable for SAR, I'm sure there are other sports you could look into that may be better for him.


Yeah I think, to be quite frank, if it wasn't for SAR I would look at this in a different way. I have trained for 2 years total to get him certified and all that may have been just for fun. But you're right there may be another sport he could excel in. I have thought agility and even competition OB actually lol.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh dear. I am sorry to hear this. I don't really have the words to guide you other than the essential find a good trainer to work with you on this issue and consider what you will be doing if they do ask him to leave the team or the trainer feels the issue cannot be resolved. 

I hope you will stay with SAR as 2 years into it you are now a valuable resource. Someone who knows how to "read" a dog is an invaluable flanker and you can always bring on a second dog. I wound up sharing my life with two other washed out dogs when I got Grim. Toby due to temperament and Cyra due to Hip Dysplasia.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Well I would rule out medical first. It's just possible that these particular people are not good people and he senses it . I had a dog once that loved everyone, but bit a guy that my sister brought home (I thought the guy was creepy), the guy was arrested for murder a week later....just a thought. I know that doesn't help with the kind of training you do


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Oh dear. I am sorry to hear this. I don't really have the words to guide you other than the essential find a good trainer to work with you on this issue and consider what you will be doing if they do ask him to leave the team or the trainer feels the issue cannot be resolved.
> 
> I hope you will stay with SAR as 2 years into it you are now a valuable resource. Someone who knows how to "read" a dog is an invaluable flanker and you can always bring on a second dog. I wound up sharing my life with two other washed out dogs when I got Grim. Toby due to temperament and Cyra due to Hip Dysplasia.


I definitely don't plan on quitting SAR regardless. I genuinely enjoy it and I am learning a lot being there. If all pans out and Titan isn't a candidate.. then I will look forward to getting myself certified and getting another dog in the future. Just sad, we introduced Titan to HRD this morning and he showed great potential with it. 



llombardo said:


> Well I would rule out medical first. It's just possible that these particular people are not good people and he senses it . I had a dog once that loved everyone, but bit a guy that my sister brought home (I thought the guy was creepy), the guy was arrested for murder a week later....just a thought. I know that doesn't help with the kind of training you do


Yeah that's exactly what my family said. Since it was so out of character.. though that doesn't excuse the behavior I can see it from that perspective. he's always been a good judge of character. We'll just have to take it back to basics I think. After reading everyone's responses I think if I can nip this in the bud now, we may be able to continue SAR (crossing fingers!!!)


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Titan was leashed and he was VERY intrigued


Wouldn't have been if you didn't leash, but turn your rear to the distracting object. I guess, your dog simply got used to that occurrence - "There is something about it, if I was leashed". I leash my dog when she is really physically tired and we are going back to the car only exactly for that reason. Besides this stereotype (which is not particularly strong, could be easily broken if you start to leash in order to ask her to perform some simple obedience for no apparent reason when nobody is around in the wild area, she, feeling tension on her collar would be ready to do that next time and the idea of barking would sink). Then, holding her back from the object makes that object more desirable. For instance, two dogs passing each other in a street exhibit a lot of agitation. If you unleash them - they wouldn't know what to do with each other, and would rather follow their handlers moving away. Pretend that you found something in the ground at that moment, fool her, her attention would stretch between two issues without losing either. 
In the open space it is easy for your dog to isolate a person, than in the street labyrinth, and even easier if you are on the top of the hill. The whole matter is in the natural ability of the dog to concentrate on the isolated object in non distracting environment with great intensity, and, if you have noticed - the greater the distance between you and the object, the greater her concentration can be on something that moves. And, "Why?" you may ask. Because her nose can detect the smell of the object, but her nature tells he that it could be not enough, she should come closer. She is barking in order to find out if the object will respond in some other way. Her bark is her wish to investigate, but she is too shy to run forward. Developing her inquisitiveness in right direction involves educating her nose to work on the distance. One day she would understand, that she doesn't need to come close in order to "read" that person or object, its smell on its own is plenty enough.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I don't do anything with my guy but he's civil in public. Your doggie has a job and that's all he should care about. Service dogs don't have to "like" people in order to do there jobs (well obviously Therapy dogs, like people! ) they just have to be civil. That's what I taught my guy to do he sees people as lawn furniture on a walk seldom any interaction. And he's fine with people when he does meet them.

But the change at the two year mark, maturity, I experianced that myself and I had "issues" to deal with at that time that I had not seen before. You raised one dog for two years and suddenly somebody new shows up?? Out of the dogs I've raised my GSD is the only one I have seen this happen with.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Your dog is a full adult now correct? not an adolescent?
I'm wondering if its health issues too. Is he on a medication?
I know my dog acts aggressive if she's not feeling well and when she was on prednisone.

If nothing else, I agree with _*llombaro's *_post about underlying creepiness. Our dog lunged at this guy on the beach a couple months ago. We call him the naked guy, he's was staring at us too long showing off his body. Molly did not like it at all!! And neither did we. My daughter says, "always trust your German Shepherd", so I think its either medical or something off with the guy.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

I wonder why a random dude was walking across the field and why he was so okay with being nipped. There was probably something off about him. But yeah, i'd treat that situation as an eye opener.

There's only been one person I met on a walk that my dog absolutely hated. She refused to let him pet her and gave some of the most vicious barks I've heard out of her every time he stepped towards us. He had three gsds in his backyard, talked about training for a few minues, he was talking about how yelling and being 'mean' was a terrible way to train and how he liked to be so sweet to his dogs, later that night I walked by his house and heard him screaming at his dogs..I could hear it from the sidewalk. Something was weird about him. The dog knew


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Another thing you can do - to train running after people in order to detect their smell. It is important that *your dog doesn't confront them, but run after keeping some distance*.
You will see, that he will stop barking if you do everything rather slowly at the beginning.Your dog should be off leash. If you saw a jogger (joggers are the best to start with, but choose a slow runner to train your dog) and your dog barks (he barks, because heis not sure how to investigate) ask him "heel" and start to move towards that running person slowly, allowing him to pass you. Only the runner is some distance away from you - start jogging yourself with your dog at your heel after him. Keep 10 feet distance between yourself and the runner and run after him for some time. You should see how your dog raises his head to detect that joggers smell trailing after him. 5 minutes of jogging should be enough. Turn 180 degree abruptly with your dog heeling and *return exactly to the spot where you started*. When you started to see, that your dog understands the procedure, you can send him after a jogger. A strong stink of sweat of a healthhy body is not what he is looking for, he would start running after people not for so long first, then would learn himself, that he has no need to do so in order to detect the smell of a moving object at all. It depends how sharp the sense of smell your dog has. Take care of his nose, exposure to car gases if too often damage his sensory organ.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

With this method of training mentioned by me below your recall should work perfectly, but you also can polish your recall. Thus your dog gets used to, that, if there is no command - he mustn't run after the stranger and ignore him. But don't stop him barking, he should bark - that is exactly what you want, isn't it?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> I don't do anything with my guy but he's civil in public. Your doggie has a job and that's all he should care about. Service dogs don't have to "like" people in order to do there jobs (well obviously Therapy dogs, like people! ) they just have to be civil. That's what I taught my guy to do he sees people as lawn furniture on a walk seldom any interaction. And he's fine with people when he does meet them.
> 
> But the change at the two year mark, maturity, I experianced that myself and I had "issues" to deal with at that time that I had not seen before. You raised one dog for two years and suddenly somebody new shows up?? Out of the dogs I've raised my GSD is the only one I have seen this happen with.


I was actually curious if there was something about the 4 year mark. I didn't quite have the big change at 2 but gooooodness the closer he got to 4 and here after, has been such a little butthead! I mean solid OB then bam, trash cans, not listening, tugging on leash, counter surfing, etc. All manageable and all have been addressed but I had been meaning to bring up whether there is a terrible 4 stage, lol. 

I agree whole heartedly now that this has happened, hing sight being 20/20 that he needs to not interact with people out side of my intro and that is something I want to work with him on now. Never too late.. 



Gretchen said:


> Your dog is a full adult now correct? not an adolescent?
> I'm wondering if its health issues too. Is he on a medication?
> I know my dog acts aggressive if she's not feeling well and when she was on prednisone.
> 
> If nothing else, I agree with _*llombaro's *_post about underlying creepiness. Our dog lunged at this guy on the beach a couple months ago. We call him the naked guy, he's was staring at us too long showing off his body. Molly did not like it at all!! And neither did we. My daughter says, "always trust your German Shepherd", so I think its either medical or something off with the guy.


He is an adult and we have had some recent health concerns so that is always a possibility. he doesn't take medication outside the antibiotics or occasionally a steroid if his allergies kick up. 



mego said:


> I wonder why a random dude was walking across the field and why he was so okay with being nipped. There was probably something off about him. But yeah, i'd treat that situation as an eye opener.
> 
> There's only been one person I met on a walk that my dog absolutely hated. She refused to let him pet her and gave some of the most vicious barks I've heard out of her every time he stepped towards us. He had three gsds in his backyard, talked about training for a few minues, he was talking about how yelling and being 'mean' was a terrible way to train and how he liked to be so sweet to his dogs, later that night I walked by his house and heard him screaming at his dogs..I could hear it from the sidewalk. Something was weird about him. The dog knew


The more I think about it (which is a lot, lol) the more I know that it wasn't so much aggression as it was protection. He has met far to many people off leash, and while I am definitely going to change the way he interacts with people now, he has NEVER jumped up to nip someone or aggressively rushed them. The lady a few weeks ago, he still had a playful demeanor with a slight aggressive undertone (tail wagging, no hackles raised) and when he got to her, he just sniffed and grabbed a ball for her to throw. Though the undertone was enough for me to decide to work on that.. he still hasn't done what he did that day to that man. 

To explain the man walking in an open field, between the parking area and the woods with all the trails to hike around, is the open field. . Wearing sweats and a T-shirt and tennis shoes, I would only assume he was going to jog or walk the trails. Couldn't tell you why he was so calm. He was VERY calm for that situation. I mean when he said "he bit me" it was in a matter of fact tone.. no worries or scared inflection.. just matter of fact. Then didn't even stay for me to talk to him while Titan was held by my back up. Offered multiple times to have him talk to our lead and he just said he was fine, didn't break skin and kept walking away. Just odd.. but not excusable to Titan though I am almost certain he was in protection mode vs down right aggression. 



David Taggart said:


> With this method of training mentioned by me below your recall should work perfectly, but you also can polish your recall. Thus your dog gets used to, that, if there is no command - he mustn't run after the stranger and ignore him. But don't stop him barking, he should bark - that is exactly what you want, isn't it?


That is definitely something that I will look into.. I don't want the barking to stop. I want him to alert me and then let me make the decision of what to do next. "Enough" should be the end all and "Check it out" would encourage an investigation. But that's just not how he works with his alerting. Even in our home it's something we struggle with. The ONLY time he barks in the home is when someone comes over. He barks his brains out, I tell him to go to bed, he does, I tell him to wait, he does, meanwhile barking his head off. It's like that for about 20 minutes until he settles then he can come greet the guest. After the greeting.. he ignores them and goes about his business.. I never give him range to greet the guest up front. I keep him in his bed/crate until he is calm then let him. This has gone on for years and I cannot for the life of me figure out how to fix it.. I have tried many things.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Also, I am contacting a few trainers tomorrow. Ideally I will go to the one I really want to, but it is an hour and a half away so I am looking at closer ones just to see if there's someone local who is worth a dime.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm somewhat surprised that more folks here aren't mentioning that you really need to get him in for more tests, as it's fairly obvious there is *something* going on with him (based on your other thread). Now might be a good time to stop with all the training and extra stuff and focus on basics at home with him, just going over and polishing up the things he already knows well.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Oh that is definitely being looked into. I am going to call my vet today. My team lead thinks that is due to the health issues too only because he's been wiring with us for 2 years and has never seen him act that way. 

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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Make sure you test thyroid.......


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Make sure you test thyroid.......


That was in the blood panel last week and she said it was fine.. I think she did liver and kidneys too. But I'll ask her what more she tested for and see what she thinks of what happened. 

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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Scheduled a one on one with a really awesome trainer in 2 weeks (booked til then for my schedule) until then I am retruning to the basics for the time being. We are not going to SAR this weekend and will instead do some nose work at the house and OB in the yard.


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