# East or West German lines for obedience?



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I have read that DDR dogs mature more slowly and I am wondering how this translates to early obedience training. How do DDRs and/or east german working lines in general compare to West german working lines when it comes to obedience?

I ask because I very much want a dog that I can work with when he is young and train in obedience, and wondered if one line or the other would be more suitable for this purpose.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think it depends on the handler and the dog. I have a West German/Czech blend and he is very biddable.
After researching the lines when I was interested in a DDR, I decided to go with the blend and couldn't be happier!
His obedience would be much better if his handler was more on task with it...


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

It depends what you mean under 'obedience'. If competitive flashy obedience, and you want to start collecting ob titles then West German WL would be much better, in my opinion. 

If you mean general obedience then any dog is capable of that at any point of their lives.

Can't wait to learn about your puppy choice


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I can't really say as I have never had west german lines,,I've always had east/czech and one american line dog.

I think ANY dog that is focused and likes to please it's owner will do well when it comes to obedience (sorry that doesn't help you narrow it down!)


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## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

Josie has both east and west and has alot of ddr in her. All i can say about her is she's a quick learner and very eager to please.

I think it depends on the personality of the dog and how much training you put into the dog.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Oksana,

I don't really care much about titles or competition with my dog. I am more interesting in obedience for the purpose of building a relationship with my dog, and having a dog I can trust to do what I ask (at least most of the time). I tend to think of GSDs as dogs who WANT that kind of interaction, where they are getting lots of time & attention from their Person, getting the joy of working together and pleasing them. I think taking some classes or being in some kind of club activities would be great. 

I guess I am mostly worried about the pup being able to focus. I'd like to have a dog who will look at me and focus and pay attention and enjoy it, rather than one who seems more ADHD... but I know that part of it is age, too, regardless of line. I am not experienced enough yet to know what to expect.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

He will focus, DDR dogs have a great focus if they are bonded to you. I do not need to raise my voice, I have Anton on a flat collar during regular walks, he responds to voice commands, not to leash tugs, I know that even in the midst of an excitement he hears me, and listens to me, and I trust him as much as you can trust a dog. 

If he's not bonded to you then you are an empty spot not worth a second look. It's funny to watch in the pet store, for example, when people show him a treat, ask him to sit and he turns his back to them. They probably think his obedience sucks


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

There is absolutely a genetic component to obedience. Yes, with enough work most dogs can be trained in obedience but there are dogs who are naturals at this. Only when you work lots of dogs can you maybe understand what I am saying here. It is a combination of the drives, nerves, ( and even some aggression), in the right balance, that results in dogs that are just EASY to train.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

You can work any dog at all in obedience to build a bond. Lines don't really matter. 

And you can test for natural focus in a young puppy. Personally, I think that focus is a function of drive. If you are engaging a puppy with a toy, and then slowly lift the toy up over their head so they see it...What do they do? Do they stare at it? Jump at it, bark? Or do they just leave? The longer they stick with it, especially the starers, I have found they tend to have better focus. 

All of my dogs are West German, who mature very quickly. They have been, so-far, pretty easy obedience dogs with good natural focus and willingness to please.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

There are so few 100% DDR line dogs around these days that I think it's difficult to form an opinion on whether they are easy to train in OB or not unless you actually own one. There are plenty of Czech dogs around however, and many of these are descendants of dogs which started out in the former East Germany. So you might expect that they would have some traits in common. The ones I have seen in clubs (and I've only seen a few) have been independent and somewhat handler hard. However, this is a gross generalization, because my exposure has been limited. My own dogs have been/are West German - working, show( at one time) and one ? because his background is unknown (European we guess though, not American.) All have been very easy to train, and have excellent focus (unless a squirrel shows up.) They don't take forever to mature, and are just a joy to work with. JMHO.
_________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## My GSD (May 17, 2010)

If I am not mistaken, a DDR GSD is now know as those from the east right? DDR was a territory that no longer exist right?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

The territory doesn't exist, the bloodlines still do.


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## My GSD (May 17, 2010)

GSD07 said:


> The territory doesn't exist, the bloodlines still do.


oh okay, I believe I read somewhere that a full DDR is hard to find and many of those with DDR in them are about 4 generations back.

I need to find some links on all the different bloodlines and try to find the one I fit myself best in.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Wolfie is DDR working line. Compared with Chiefy, who was an American show line, Wolfie is a much easier dog to train. He just turned 5 months old today, and he knows all the basic commands. I never have to wait for him to obey a command. He does things already without me telling him to. For instance, he has to sit nicely next to his crate before he gets fed. I don't have to say a word. As soon as he sees me get his food, he runs over and sits next to the crate and waits for me to place the food down before he moves. When we are walking and someone wants to pat him, I told him to sit every time without thinking that I was training him. I just wanted to avoid the jumping. Now when someone asks me if they can pat him, he sits without me saying anything. He shows excellent self control, and excellent recall.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

My GSD said:


> oh okay, I believe I read somewhere that a full DDR is hard to find and many of those with DDR in them are about 4 generations back.
> 
> I need to find some links on all the different bloodlines and try to find the one I fit myself best in.


DDR Xander von Hena-C - Hena-C Kennels, New Hampshire - Pam Lake, Owner This is Wolfie's father. 100% DDR. They are out there.


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## My GSD (May 17, 2010)

Wolfiesmom said:


> Wolfie is DDR working line. Compared with Chiefy, who was an American show line, Wolfie is a much easier dog to train. He just turned 5 months old today, and he knows all the basic commands. I never have to wait for him to obey a command. He does things already without me telling him to. For instance, he has to sit nicely next to his crate before he gets fed. I don't have to say a word. As soon as he sees me get his food, he runs over and sits next to the crate and waits for me to place the food down before he moves. When we are walking and someone wants to pat him, I told him to sit every time without thinking that I was training him. I just wanted to avoid the jumping. Now when someone asks me if they can pat him, he sits without me saying anything. He shows excellent self control, and excellent recall.


Wow Wolfie sounds amazing  

I love this breed soooooo much!!!


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

Some DDR's do take longer to mature mentally, and some don't. I do believe that it does depend on the lines of the DDR. I had a full DDR girl that was able to start in schutzhund training at 3 months of age, and then I had another that did not mature mentally until 13 months old. Some can take up to 36 months of age. I think if you have to wait for them to mature, then the outcome of it will be worth the wait!!!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kelly, I agree!! My Anton is taking forever to mature but I love every second of that process  He is still so puppish at his 27 months, even though I can see some adult moments once in a while


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

cassadee7 said:


> I don't really care much about titles or competition with my dog. I am more interesting in obedience for the purpose of building a relationship with my dog, and having a dog I can trust to do what I ask (at least most of the time).


Any dog can be trained. Most German shepherds of any line can be trained to what you are looking for above - the rest is really up to you. I am also in agreement with Vandal that genetics can play a role - since some German shepherds can be trained more easily than others.

I have a dog who has recent HGH winners in her lines - she was born with 100% recall. I swear no training needed for one of the most important commands for living with a dog. Some dogs are born trained - of course I am exaggerating but just to emphasize the point that genetics does play a role.
It's called biddability or genetic obedience. No toys or food required, not even a pat on the head or excitement making. Their obedience comes from a genetic need to bond with their owner above any other drive. Also called pack drive.
It's not impossible, all you need to do is keep breeding dogs that show those traits for generations.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

addendum: These dogs can almost 'read your thoughts'. Scientifically speaking, they probably master your body language, facial expressions, tone of voice and even body chemistry as they are 100% focused on 'learning you' since they were a puppy. 
The disadvantage with this type of GSD is that they are 'being trained' even without you noticing it so they get bad training too from you as nobody is perfect.
Best they live with a calm owner who has mastery over their emotions.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Care to share the pedigree of that perfect pup you describe, Ocean?
My pup is very similar in temperament/biddability and a mix of West/Czech


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've had American show lines.
now i have a West German
show line.

both lines were easy to train.
i always say "training a GSD
is push botton".


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Ike is 1/2 West German. I think he is pretty biddable although I don't think his pack drive is higher than his prey/food drive.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Anton is like that. He does not need anything if it comes to obedience, no treats, no toys, no raised voice, eye contact is sufficient. He just needs to know for sure what exactly I want, and that's it. He reads my mind, I'm not kidding, and he's a joy. I can compare, so I know what I'm talking about 

I talk so much about Anton because Shawn actually has an opportunity to meet him


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I feel the need to reiterate the comments about herding lines. There is something there that some of the other bloodlines just don't seem to have as much of. I can't speak for the dogs that do herding nowadays but the dogs I started with had some of the most famous herding dogs very close in the pedigree and while I have seen and worked lots of dogs over the years, ( who were good dogs in their own way), there was really something special about those dogs from the herding lines. I think lately, the dogs are not showing the level of pack drive they once did. I see more dogs who don't look as interested in their owner as they do for objects. I have both types of dogs here , so, I am speaking from experience about the difference. Might be difficult for people to understand if they have that pack drive or not because dog terms can sometimes make two different types of dogs sound the same.

I would describe this somewhat like Ocean said where there is just an extreme interest in the owner. Nothing clingy about it, just a case where the dog finds the handler more of an attraction than toys or treats etc. If you consider that for a minute, you might understand how much easier a dog like that would be to train. No need for food bags, jackets with ball droppers, wearing a hat so you can use it as a toy in training and then wear it in a trial, food stuffed in your mouth to spit , etc, etc etc. No tricks, treats, toys or e-collars required. How easy could it be?
Seems this quality is no longer valued but for the life of me, I can't understand why. Guess it's that extreme speed and flash for the sport thing again. Of course, almost all dogs really like their owners but what I am describing is just different, you have to experience a dog like this to really appreciate the difference. I will pick this kind of dog over any other, there is just nothing else like them. What they do is natural, it is genetic. Like I said before, any dog can be 'trained' using all the tricks and methods available nowadays but these dogs just seem to require a lot LESS training. They want to work with the handler, they don't need the intense work with the ball spinning around in circles, they are there ready to please you.
Another nice thing about these kinds of dogs is, they will really protect you, it seems to go hand in hand with the pack drive...that's my experience anyway and because they are so tuned into the handler, they are easy to control or to stop in their tracks when necessary. That, for me anyway, is a German Shepherd.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I guess I should add, it is not just the herding lines that had this, there were certain bloodlines known for the same thing. Lierbergs were just one of those and the lines coming thru Vello. 
These dogs are getting way back in the pedigrees now but this trait is not completely gone, not yet anyway.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> they are there ready to please you.
> Another nice thing about these kinds of dogs is, they will really protect you, it seems to go hand in hand with the pack drive...that's my experience anyway and because they are so tuned into the handler, they are easy to control or to stop in their tracks when necessary. That, for me anyway, is a German Shepherd.


Believe me, I know exactly what you are talking about. I've seen these dogs you are talking about. I know what you mean with pack drive and I've seen German Shepherds bringing sheeps in just by instinct. They've never learned it yet they instinctively knew how to keep them together. 
And the will to please, work and learning superfast as well as to bond too. 

Ps: and the protection part too.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Vandal said:


> I guess I should add, it is not just the herding lines that had this, there were certain bloodlines known for the same thing. Lierbergs were just one of those and the lines coming thru Vello.
> These dogs are getting way back in the pedigrees now but this trait is not completely gone, not yet anyway.


The Gildo vom Koerbelbach line has it too. Not only the herding instinct but an absolutely insane amount of will to bond and work for and with their handler. But at the same time they have a natural aggressivity (hope I translated that correct)and very powerful and some of them are not for every handler. They need the perfect match but once they made that match, it's a dream to watch. That's why there are so many successful dogs out of that line.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

BTW, some of the herding lines, the ones that many are not that familair with, have some DDR in their pedigrees and some of the DDR dogs go back on herding lines, ( and for sure Lierberg), as well. So, as was already mentioned, it depends on what is behind the DDR lines.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I definintely agree with Anne's comments about the Lierbergs and the old herding lines. Also Racker Itztal. Umsa Bungalow brought a less than biddable temperament, but when crossed with the Lierbergs and/or Racker you can get some really nice dogs. Hard dogs that still want to work with their handlers.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> You can work any dog at all in obedience to build a bond. Lines don't really matter.
> 
> And you can test for natural focus in a young puppy. Personally, I think that focus is a function of drive. If you are engaging a puppy with a toy, and then slowly lift the toy up over their head so they see it...What do they do? Do they stare at it? Jump at it, bark? Or do they just leave? The longer they stick with it, especially the starers, I have found they tend to have better focus.
> 
> All of my dogs are West German, who mature very quickly. They have been, so-far, pretty easy obedience dogs with good natural focus and willingness to please.


Very interesting insight, thank you. My vet showed me a basic personality test when he was 8 weeks. He held him in his arms with Max's belly 
exposed and he went relaxed and just looked up at him with a look like, "ok, what do you want me to do next?" My vet said that was a very good sign of relaxed, yet confident dog. I was beaming inside.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Vandal said:


> I guess I should add, it is not just the herding lines that had this, there were certain bloodlines known for the same thing. Lierbergs were just one of those and the lines coming thru Vello.
> These dogs are getting way back in the pedigrees now but this trait is not completely gone, not yet anyway.


 Thank you for your insight, Anne, very interesting to read. Anton's pedigree does have Bernd vom Lierberg back in his pedigree on both sides, and not just once. I wish I were more skilled in my knowledge of dogs in the pedigrees, but I'm learning. It's amazing that some traits can be passed intact through so many generations!
*
*


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lhczth said:


> I definintely agree with Anne's comments about the Lierbergs and the old herding lines. Also Racker Itztal. *Umsa Bungalow brought a less than biddable temperament*, but when crossed with the Lierbergs and/or Racker you can get some really nice dogs. Hard dogs that still want to work with their handlers.


Not necessarily true. Like I said, not every dog is for everybody. Sometimes it just doesn't fit but with the perfect match, these dogs became world-class dogs. 

Olko(my dad always said that he was even better than Gildo), Orlie... Vargo, Champ, Wotan, Asko vom Siegelgrund are just a few to name and there are many many more very powerful dogs (yet ready to please) out there that came out of that particular line that are still the best of the best in Schutzhund Sport.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have a six year old female who is exactly like Anne describes...she lives for me...would always bring things back to me and drop them, stays close to me whenever we go anywhere. Her father was linebred 2-3,4 on Held v Ritterberg, Held's mother was inbred 2-2 on Bernd v Lierberg. This dam is also a Haus Himpel female which has a history of herding dogs from the old blood in DDR. My current DDR 8 month DDR female is currently in herding training now. The instructor says she has an incredible natural aptitude for the work with good prey drive and awesome biddability to work with the shepherd. She is already moving sheep up and down the pasture, staying behind to the side the instructor indicates with the rod, and if one breaks she rounds it up from the outside to drive it back into the pack. These traits of biddability are so much part of the real temperament of the breed and yet we have placed things like prey drive and shy drive ahead of them in our breeding programs.JMO


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I thought that most German Shepherds were generally easy to train and relatively biddable until I had one that really is. This dog also shows very nice herding ability. She is a mix of East and West working lines, but I have often wondered if the east stuff doesn't predominate. 

Obedience training for competition was done off leash. I had to add a leash to get ready to show. As far as being a companion, she has had voice control from the very beginning. Today, as every day, she will spend her hours completely focused on me and most of it actually looking intently at me. Now a lot of people are going to say their GSD does this too. Well, yes, but she is different in this than others I know and own.

She is much more fun to herd with than show in obedience though. I get nervous in competition and having such a "keyed into me" dog in that situation doesn't work as well for me. But, for sure she is my most naturally obedient dog to live with. 

So you can see that "competition" is going to cause me to choose a dog for that who is not as lovely in general companion and herding "temperament'. A dog who is a bit "harder" to me and actually a bit more independent. Darn that competition stuff!


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

One of the best competition obedience routines ever. I'm guessing the trainer used all the standard training tools of today but these lines are also known for their genetic obedience. The dog and handler are so in tune with each other, it's almost like their heartbeats were synchronized. (this was major event too so imagine the pressure)


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Another video that I enjoy watching. The connection and the joy of working together is obvious between the dog and his handler. It's a 2 way partnership. (come to think of it, some dogs are also very talented at training their owner) Again a major competition but it almost looks like a kindly grandfather and his happy dog out for a walk in the park on a Sunday afternoon. You can not train all of this, some dogs were born for it.


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## My GSD (May 17, 2010)

Wow those are some impressive videos Ocean.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Samba said:


> I thought that most German Shepherds were generally easy to train and relatively biddable until I had one that really is. This dog also shows very nice herding ability. She is a mix of East and West working lines, but I have often wondered if the east stuff doesn't predominate.
> 
> Obedience training for competition was done off leash. I had to add a leash to get ready to show. As far as being a companion, she has had voice control from the very beginning. Today, as every day, she will spend her hours completely focused on me and most of it actually looking intently at me. Now a lot of people are going to say their GSD does this too. Well, yes, but she is different in this than others I know and own.
> 
> ...


Samba, Biddability and Weakness are two different things. A dog can be all tough and rough but if that dog wants to work and you are his match, he will do anything and everything with and for you. 

These dogs would have probably turned out different if it wasn't for the handler even though the handler is the one that nobody will remember. 

There are awesome dogs out there, dogs that could be as good as all those big names but because they have the wrong handler...


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