# Potty Training without discipline?



## Oskar's Human (Jan 22, 2014)

So my almost 8 week old Oskar has been doing quite well. We take him outside and he goes right away in the same spot almost every time. When he doesn't have to go he lies down at our feet or goes back and stands at the door. After letting him back in he doesn't have accidents right away. 

He hasn't had any problems going number two in the house, largely because we take him out often and he hasn't gone in his crate once! 

He does still have accidents, which is understandable because he is so young and we are only on day 4 of having him/potty training him but I want to make sure we are going about it in the most effective way.

I've heard some say disciplining is bad and others say it helps them associate a negative interacting with going inside, and I am just wondering your opinions on this. I do not want to make him fear-aggressive or learn to be afraid of eliminating in front of us etc but I want to know how to train him to start letting us know he needs to go out instead of us just taking him out every 45 min-1 hour.

This may seem like a basic question, but he is my first puppy and I am a titch overwhelmed with the barrage of conflicting information out there. I'd like to hear some experienced folks give me the straight skinny on what worked for them.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

I've always followed the thought that any accidents in the house are my fault, he's still learning and would have no idea why he's being punished.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I didn't really discipline If I caught him in the act I would say "no, no...you potty outside." Then take him out to the potty place.


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## madis (Dec 21, 2013)

We have a 10 week old who is also at your pups level. The thing you have to constantly remember is that GSDs are not like normal dogs. They tend to be very sensitive to discipline, which could make them fearful/insecure. If we didn't see him do it (were only human and he wanders out of our sight sometimes), one of us plays with him in the other room while the other cleans it with an enzyme cleaner. We never let him see us clean it because we don't want to draw any attention to it. Now if we see him squatting, we do a firm but not "mean" No and pick him up mid-stream and gently take him outside and say "go potty". We have noticed if we get frustrated an raise our voice, he really gets sad and just kind of shuts down for a few minutes. Every time we take him outside and he goes, we act like he just won the Nobel prize. 

This is just our method. It really seems to be working. 


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The discipline for house training wrecks should be administered to the humans involved, not the pup. If you catch him in the act, just say something like "oops" and pick him up and take him outside. Right then. Personally, I've not had much luck intercepting (my fault not the pups). But frequent outside trips "putting a name on it" and praising like they just found your lost gold watch seems to work. My pup has figured out what "whizz" means and what "poop" means. Or at least what activity in response to those words gets a lot of praise.


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## madis (Dec 21, 2013)

middleofnowhere said:


> The discipline for house training wrecks should be administered to the humans involved, not the pup. If you catch him in the act, just say something like "oops" and pick him up and take him outside. Right then. Personally, I've not had much luck intercepting (my fault not the pups). But frequent outside trips "putting a name on it" and praising like they just found your lost gold watch seems to work. My pup has figured out what "whizz" means and what "poop" means. Or at least what activity in response to those words gets a lot of praise.


Lol I like your potty words  


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've never bothered to train mine to "let me know". I just take them out at intervals appropriate for their age, and by the time they're 6 months or so they can hold it all day and all night. My current pup is 13 weeks and I let him out every 30-45 minutes while he's awake. At night he can hold it 5-6 hours so far.


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## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

We have an 11 week pup and still about the same place you are. He will go on command, "go potty", "go poop" and seems to know the difference. 

Yesterday evening he is in the kitchen with my wife. He comes running into the living room, sits in front of me and cries. I jump up at take him outside, he pee'd and pooped (we have different places for each) and I never stepped off the deck. As far as I'm concerned he DID just win the Nobel prize. 

He still doesn't seem to know the concept of outside only. I "think" we are making progress.... I think..... Our last Shepherd was done at two weeks with only a couple of accidents after. So it's either a male vs female thing or simply all dogs are different.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

You have to remember your puppy is only a baby. Just be consistant and extremely patient. You wouldn't discipline an infant for soiling its diaper. You will learn to see the signals, unless your puppy is like Lakota was. We used to call her the "stealth squatter"!


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Other than a, "No! Let's go outside!" if I saw her starting to look around or squat, I did not discipline Lisl to potty train her. If she had an accident I said nothing, cleaned it up, and we went out until she pottied again. Sometimes those where some very long and cold trips outside.

What I did was take her out every 20-30 minutes at that age to teach her where potty was to take place and where it was not to take place. I also managed her water and food intake extremely close to get her into a semi-regular routine for going potty.

You do not want the pup to associate anything bad with going potty.


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## Axle (Jan 29, 2014)

gaia_bear said:


> I've always followed the thought that any accidents in the house are my fault, he's still learning and would have no idea why he's being punished.


I also followed this thought. We never disciplined for accidents because they don't know any better and it was always due to us not paying attention. We never used puppy pads. I would say we had fewer than 10 accidents (never a #2) and he was fully potty trained by 4-5 months.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

I am going to be in the minority and say that mild corrections are ok. I know that 100% positive motivation is in vogue right now, but something needs to give them a negative association with going inside. I don't mean rub their nose in it, it only works if you catch them in the act, but a little swat on the butt and a loud NO isn't going to traumatize your dog and make it hate you forever. I don't understand the people who say "don't let the dog see you cleaning it up". Why? The dog doesn't understand that any more than they understand a number of other things. 

Speaking from personal experience...I was going out of my mind potty training Sansa...I was taking her out every hour, rain or shine, rewarding her with high value treats, and ignoring the occasional mistake that was "my fault" because I turned my head for three seconds. After about month, she understood that going outside was fantastic but still didn't understand not to go inside. Why? Because we were all positive and didn't want to correct her for going inside. Finally, my husband caught her in the act, yelled loud and swatted her on the butt. Guess what? She has never had an accident inside since. She also isn't a traumatized dog who hates her owners, she is happy and well socialized and a great dog. 

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## Zlata (Aug 31, 2013)

As others have said, 8 weeks is still a baby. I would second the others who say to remain positive. Bring them outside to eliminate, treat/praise immediately after eliminating (so if you're using treats, bring them outside with you), come back inside, play, crate, and the cycle repeats. 

Don't give your puppy the opportunity to 'slip up.' Set your puppy up for success--that's why I crated or had my pup on leash tethered to me at all times. Accidents were very minimal. If I caught him the act, I just went, eh-eh, and I brought him outside.

My parents had a toy poodle who was a very intelligent dog, but my parents did a lot of old-school discipline with him during potty training as a pup (shoving his nose in it, yelling at him, you name it.) The dog never learned to be properly housetrained, and he would go off and eliminate 'in private' throughout the house. He wasn't being taught not to eliminate inside--he was being taught to eliminate outside of the eyesight of the very angry, frightening humans. 

Every dog is different, but our puppy really grasped it at a quicker rate using a positive-only approach. They are babies! No use punishing them when they clearly have no concept of right or wrong.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sansa's Mom said:


> I am going to be in the minority and say that mild corrections are ok. I know that 100% positive motivation is in vogue right now, but something needs to give them a negative association with going inside. I don't mean rub their nose in it, it only works if you catch them in the act, but a little swat on the butt and a loud NO isn't going to traumatize your dog and make it hate you forever. I don't understand the people who say "don't let the dog see you cleaning it up". Why? The dog doesn't understand that any more than they understand a number of other things.
> 
> Speaking from personal experience...I was going out of my mind potty training Sansa...I was taking her out every hour, rain or shine, rewarding her with high value treats, and ignoring the occasional mistake that was "my fault" because I turned my head for three seconds. After about month, she understood that going outside was fantastic but still didn't understand not to go inside. Why? Because we were all positive and didn't want to correct her for going inside. Finally, my husband caught her in the act, yelled loud and swatted her on the butt. Guess what? She has never had an accident inside since. She also isn't a traumatized dog who hates her owners, she is happy and well socialized and a great dog.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This would depend on the dog. What punishing a dog for pottying inside like this is more likely to do is to make the dog less likely to potty in your presence. Which means you would then not be able to get him to go when you need him to, where you need him to. 

And then back inside, once you are no longer paying attention, the dog stops being quite so stressed and feels the urge and goes. 

So this method will be highly dependent on how handler sensitive the dog is, and how hard or soft the dog is. Don't do this with a soft dog or it will make house training a nightmare. 

And the worst thing about this, is that most people attribute non-compliance with stubbornness, and reactive behaviors with boldness or harness. It seems that people with soft dogs, often think they have hard dogs. 

Puppies between 8 weeks and 16 weeks do not need to be swatted on the butt. Sorry. I would not suggest this method of housebreaking. It worked for you. It isn't necessarily going to work most of the time.

House training is all about discipline -- disciplining yourself to get your puppy where he needs to be, when he needs to be there, praising him for performing, and supervising him when you are inside.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

I just think there is a spectrum, a happy medium. On one side, there are the harsh, cesar milan alpha type of people, on the other side, the all positive, all the time, dog can do no wrong school of thought. I fall somewhere in the middle, rewarding good behaviors and correcting bad ones. I have had both hard dogs and soft, and what a "correction" is depends on the dog. My male only needed a stern voice and sad look. A middle of the road dog can handle a swat on the butt. I'm just saying, I don't think people need to act like every dog is the most delicate sensitive being whose fragile feelings will be forever hurt by any kind of correction. 

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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sansa's Mom said:


> I just think there is a spectrum, a happy medium. On one side, there are the harsh, cesar milan alpha type of people, on the other side, the all positive, all the time, dog can do no wrong school of thought. I fall somewhere in the middle, rewarding good behaviors and correcting bad ones. I have had both hard dogs and soft, and what a "correction" is depends on the dog. My male only needed a stern voice and sad look. A middle of the road dog can handle a swat on the butt. I'm just saying, I don't think people need to act like every dog is the most delicate sensitive being whose fragile feelings will be forever hurt by any kind of correction.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My dogs are not children. I do not swat them on the butt. 

Positive training is not permissive. Not if done correctly. You are way off base with the positive training stereotype: "all positive all the time dog can do no wrong." 

There are very few people out there that do zero corrections. Most of us use our voice to correct the dog -- not yelling, but eh! or No. We let them know that was not correct. Some dogs only need the lack of praise or the repetition of whatever we are working on to realize they did it incorrectly. And some can use the verbal negative marker to correct them. But there is actually very little totally positive without corrections going on out there.

I like to think there is very little swatting of dogs being done as well. It is totally unnecessary and it lowers us in our dogs' eyes. A dog thrives when it is secure in an owner who is completely in charge. When an owner is shouting or hitting them, the dog is totally insecure because the human is acting crazy. We cannot be a natural leader if we go about shouting at or swatting our dogs, sorry. 

Can some dogs adjust to this kind of leadership? Sure. Dogs are pretty resilient overall, most of them. But, if you smack your dog to get it to do what you want, and yell at it, chances are good that you are going to have to reach that level in other areas as well. And the dog will do things or not do things to avoid your interaction with them. I guess I prefer my dogs to do things in order to have interaction with me. It is very effective, much more effective than losing my mind, shouting and striking at them.


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## Oskar's Human (Jan 22, 2014)

Thank you all for the help. I can honestly say that it only took a week after that post for my puppy to be potty trained. He lets us know when he has to go out... and has had only one accident in the house in the past 11 days, until Saturday night. I took your advice about the "party" and am continuing it until I fully trust him and perhaps even after then...  He gets a Kong treats promptly and knows it is going to happen to the point where after walking in the house he pops a squat at my feet and looks up at me with big brown eyes of earnest  

He has had issues the past two nights that we thought were mere slip-ups but it turns out his body is actually producing a large number of crystals, causing him to "leak" and he messed in his cage last night  Took him to the vet this morning and he recommended science diet and vitamin B6 twice a day. I started a new thread and despite 123 views no one has replied 

I was just wondering if anyone who feeds their dog a raw diet had experienced this with a dog food, since the vet said it was diet related. If so or if not, I am still interested in people posting (on that thread perhaps) some info on if they have experienced this or if they have taken any preventative steps to prevent this. My vet said this is very rare for a ten week old and it puts him at risk for kidney stones so we will have to monitor that for perhaps the rest of his life! :help:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wish I could help on that. I don't feed raw. I have given raw chicken legs or hamburger to my dogs but usually only skipping a meal in 2 weeks or longer. I feed Diamond Naturals.

I don't like the idea of Science Diet. It has poor ingredients, is over-priced, and I think that the over all quality of the food is not so good. I hope by bumping this, I can find someone who is into the raw stuff to give their advice on this. You may not need to change the type of food(raw) just the make-up: organ meat to RMB, but I have no clue about any of that. (Vets generally frown on raw feeding in principle.) I think it is probably a lot more healthy overall, but I would have to do my homework to figure out a correct diet, and one that is within my budget.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have no idea about the food issue, congrats on the potty training tho!

I never punish / correct mine for having an accident in the house..I have always just taken them out frequently, praise for 'good potties',,ignore the accidents.

If I 'think" they are about to potty in the house, I just quickly scoop them up and out we go..


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Did you change anything? New treats, food? Etc. what is causing the crystals? What did the vet say?


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## Oskar's Human (Jan 22, 2014)

Doc said:


> Did you change anything? New treats, food? Etc. what is causing the crystals? What did the vet say?


He was eating Authority for Puppies (recommended by a lady at petsmart when I was looking at Purina for large breed puppies) from the time I got him home until yesterday. (I've only had him for three weeks) I used kong treats for potty training and just his kibble for other training. I bought him bully sticks yesterday but the vet said he shouldn't have those until they eliminate what is causing the issue. 

I'm concerned because although crystals were found the vet did not look for bacteria that could be causing a UTI and did not specify to me what type of crystals they were. He also said to not give the dog cranberries or cranberry supplements or fish oil pills when I asked. I asked him about this because whenever I personally have had a UTI I can get rid of the issue just with cranberry supplements and putting some cranberries in my salads etc. and taking the fish oil supplements. At the very least it would seem that including cranberry supplements in his diet could help him if he is prone to this kind of problem.

My Vet is a Petsmart Vet and overall I am not that impressed with his approach to this, among other things. He told me that he would have to consult with another vet after finding the crystals because he had never seen so many in a male puppy as young as he is. The vet he consulted with reccomended 25mg of B6 a day and Science Diet for large breed puppies, he also had never heard of crystals in a male puppy at this age. 

To me, it just doesn't seem proactive enough given the risks. I mean no antibiotics or even attempting to find out if he has a bacterial infection in addition to the crystals?!?!? When we know that these crystals can form stones! 

I don't think that science diet food and b6 vitamins are going to just solve the problem. Seems like a preventative treatment to me when he already has the crystals.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Get a good vet and avoid the PetSmart nutritional advice. I think there is much better info on this forum. 
My Italian Greyhound had crystals and they dissolved with the (hold your horses....) Science Diet UTI formula. I decided to take this vet's advice and use one small bag and it cleared it up. Now she gets a good maintenance diet; good quality kibble in the AM an raw at PM , which seems to acidify the urine. On top of that cranberry powder and vit C.


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## Oskar's Human (Jan 22, 2014)

@Wolfy Dog

Science Diet Urinary would make sense but they don't have it for puppies so I am just giving him Science Diet for large breed puppies. Apparently they don't have much Urinary Puppy Food on the market. On that note, anyone know of any?!

And on the whole petsmart thing, he gets his second round of vaccinations on Monday. I am going to ask for a copy of the urine tests they did do and move on to another vet with the info I have. 

Also do you think I should ask him why he didn't run a test for bacteria. He just said that male dogs don't usually get UTIs but if Oskar has bacteria, no matter what diet I put him on the problem won't be resolved without the "proper" antibiotics.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sounds like you need a new vet. Ivan had two UTI's a puppy. It's bull that males don't get UTI's.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

selzer said:


> My dogs are not children. I do not swat them on the butt.
> 
> Positive training is not permissive. Not if done correctly. You are way off base with the positive training stereotype: "all positive all the time dog can do no wrong."
> 
> ...


I don't think it really is off-base, a lot of all-positive training can be permissive. I agree that some dogs can be corrected just with a stern voice or interruption- like I said earlier, I had a male that pretty much just needed a dirty look and that was sufficient. But not all dogs will respond to that. 

Also- I am not talking about losing control and going ballistic and beating the crap out of a dog. I am talking about a loud "NO" and swat on the butt. Not to mention, that one time is the only time that it has been necessary. I think you are making this much more extreme than it really is. I also don't get why people freak out over corrections like that, but consider prong collars and such to be totally ok ( I don't know if you are ok with prong collars, just saying). It seems like some kinds of physical corrections are ok, and others are taboo. 

What is your opinion about how a harder dog should be handled? A dog that doesn't care about minor verbal corrections like "eh eh eh"? Just keep on rewarding the good, and verbally correctingthe bad, and hoping for the best? It reminds me of that expression that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. IMO, each dog has different needs. 

I'm also not saying that a dog should be corrected physically first, without knowing what they are being corrected for. In my case, my dog was perfectly aware that she was supposed to go potty outside, she had it down to a tee, peed on command and got rewards and praise every time, but there had been nothing besides "eh eh eh" to let her know not to go inside. She understood outside was good, but didn't understand that inside was bad, because she truly didn't care about interruptions or firm NO's.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sansa's Mom said:


> I am going to be in the minority and say that mild corrections are ok. I know that 100% positive motivation is in vogue right now, but something needs to give them a negative association with going inside. I don't mean rub their nose in it, it only works if you catch them in the act, but a little swat on the butt and a loud NO isn't going to traumatize your dog and make it hate you forever.


I disagree that 100% positive is in vogue - as someone already pointed out (selzer?) there are very few people who train with absolutely no corrections ever, not even verbal corrections. 

But the problem with punishing a puppy for pottying inside is that YOU know you're swatting him on the butt for WHERE he's pottying, but how could HE possibly know that? That's a leap of logic that a puppy simply isn't capable of, and the risk, of course, is that you create a negative association with pottying in the presence of the owner, and then you have a puppy who slinks off to do his business in private, where you can't see him go. In that case, not only are you still having accidents in the house, you can also hamper your housebreaking efforts because puppy may become hesitant to potty outdoors when you're there, so you it's harder catch him doing good and reward him for it. That's great that this potential fallout has not happened with your dog, but you can't guarantee that it will never happen with another dog. 

The "no", (or anything else you want to do to interrupt - I clap my hands and say "ah ah" then pick puppy up and hustle him outside to finish), is fine, it's the swat on the butt that I object to. That makes as much sense to me as swatting a baby for peeing or pooping in a diaper. A young puppy not only has no concept of where he's supposed to be going, but he also has very little bowel and bladder control and has not yet learned to recognize the signs that he needs to go. It's up to us to teach them that, and hitting them for doing something completely normal and necessary like peeing and pooping is counter-productive, and wrong. 



Sansa's Mom said:


> I just think there is a spectrum, a happy medium. On one side, there are the harsh, cesar milan alpha type of people, on the other side, the all positive, all the time, dog can do no wrong school of thought.


That's a misrepresentation of positive training. I'm not 100% positive, but anyone with a "dog can do no wrong" school of thought is simply a bad trainer. 



Sansa's Mom said:


> I don't think it really is off-base, a lot of all-positive training can be permissive.


All-positive training should never be permissive. It's absolutely not about hoping for the best, it's about making sure that the dog is set up for success by managing their environment to minimize their opportunity to fail, or be "bad". If someone is just ignoring bad behavior without doing anything to prevent it, that's not a failure of the training method, it's a failure to properly execute it.



Sansa's Mom said:


> Also- I am not talking about losing control and going ballistic and beating the crap out of a dog. I am talking about a loud "NO" and swat on the butt. Not to mention, that one time is the only time that it has been necessary. I think you are making this much more extreme than it really is. I also don't get why people freak out over corrections like that, but consider prong collars and such to be totally ok ( I don't know if you are ok with prong collars, just saying). It seems like some kinds of physical corrections are ok, and others are taboo.


To say that physical corrections are right or wrong is a gross oversimplification of the question - it depends on the dog, it depends on the circumstances, it depends on the level of training and maturity. Would you use a prong collar to correct an 8 week old puppy for peeing in the house? Of course not. (Right?) THIS thread isn't about corrections in general, it's about using them to housebreak a young puppy, and that's the context that people are responding to in their posts.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I disagree that 100% positive is in vogue - as someone already pointed out (selzer?) there are very few people who train with absolutely no corrections ever, not even verbal corrections.
> 
> But the problem with punishing a puppy for pottying inside is that YOU know you're swatting him on the butt for WHERE he's pottying, but how could HE possibly know that?
> 
> ...


In my case- she figured out after only one minor physical correction that she wasn't supposed to pee inside the house.  So it really wasn't a huge leap in logic, it actually was the only thing that finally sent the message that our hourly trips outside with high-value rewards had failed to send. She wasn't particularly upset about it at the time, and she has literally never had one accident since, from that moment onward she understood, and would walk to the door and wait by it to go outside. 

I agree that saying physical corrections are wrong all of the time is a gross oversimplification- that's exactly the point I am trying to prove, in fact, and that's what I think is going on in this thread. Automatically saying that a sharp NO and swat on the butt is the worst thing ever and will never work and your dog won't understand it, and will become handler sensitive-to a person for whom it worked perfectly, doesn't make sense, because my dog DID understand it and it DIDN'T do any lasting harm. She was upset for like 20 seconds, then shook it off, and now is completely housebroken. She has never shied away from anyone's hand, become less affectionate or less cooperative, or otherwise shown in any way that she is anything but a happy and well adjusted dog. 

Of course a prong collar would be highly inappropriate for an 8 week old puppy. I don't even use a prong collar, I was using that as an example of a physical correction that tons of people condone, it seems pretty harsh and even potentially dangerous to me. 

I don't think it is inappropriate, however, to give a minor swat on the butt to a four month old puppy who has mastered the art of peeing outside, but hasn't gotten the message that peeing inside isn't so great, in order to demonstrate that peeing inside = bad.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sansa's Mom said:


> I don't think it really is off-base, a lot of all-positive training can be permissive. I agree that some dogs can be corrected just with a stern voice or interruption- like I said earlier, I had a male that pretty much just needed a dirty look and that was sufficient. But not all dogs will respond to that.
> 
> Also- I am not talking about losing control and going ballistic and beating the crap out of a dog. I am talking about a loud "NO" and swat on the butt. Not to mention, that one time is the only time that it has been necessary. I think you are making this much more extreme than it really is. I also don't get why people freak out over corrections like that, but consider prong collars and such to be totally ok ( I don't know if you are ok with prong collars, just saying). It seems like some kinds of physical corrections are ok, and others are taboo.
> 
> ...



I don't use prong collars or e-collars. I will occasionally suggest a prong collar to other people depending on the circumstances. But there are people who would hang up a dog with a choke chain and choke the dog out, until it is unconscious -- that is extreme and bad training. The same can be done with prong or e-collars -- one lady put several e-collars on a dog in sensitive locations and was zapping the heck out of it. Bad training. 

Someone who claims to be a positive trainer and is permissive is also performing bad training. 

I prefer to train my dogs in methods that promote a relationship between me and the dog, and builds the dog's confidence in himself and in me. I want training to be fun, with the dog looking for more more more. 

And if I cannot manage a dog without physically swatting the dog, well, I have failed. I have lost my cool. I have set a human brain against a canine brain and came up wanting. For heaven's sake their dogs. If we cannot manage the environment and the training without major fails, then we need help.

Most training does include positive markers: treats, play, praise and negative markers:corrections, verbal and/or physical via use of a correction type collar. The training is either highly reinforcing of positive behavior with corrections that clarify certain behaviors as unacceptable, and set boudaries; or it is punishment based with some praise interspersed in there to make everyone feel good. The outcome of both training styles still depend on consistency and repetition, but in one type, you have a dog who does what you want him to do, because he is trying to please you or get a reward, and the other, he does what you want him to do to avoid a negative consequence. 

I just prefer the one over the other. I have the right type of dog for this type of training. Also, a dog who is avoiding punishment will shut down rather than try to think its way out of a situation. A herding dog has to think. Correction-based training doesn't promote thinking.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Back to the recent issue regarding diet -- go ahead and feed the recommended adult food (special vet science diet) - it doesn't hurt to feed puppies adult food. I've gone straight to adult kibble for most of my puppies.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Discipline and consistency are key to every facet of training dogs.

All 6 of my German Shepherd pups were brought home between 6 and 8 weeks old.

All were house broke by around 10 weeks old.

You never let them out of your site and you take them out every 15 minutes regardless.

If you see them sniffing around you snatch them up and take them outside.

The second they go potty outside you lavish them with huge amounts of praise, you can't go over board here.

If there is an accident you catch in progress, you throw a NO! at them in the form of a Verbal Brick,

grab them that instance on either side of the muzzle and sternly/lovingly correct them with the NO/Verbal Brick. 

Then you immediately take them outside. Here's where I go against the conventional thinking, 

if you find an accident, you show it to them and sternly tell 

them no, then take them outside and explain this is where that was supposed to take place. 

You always read not to do this because supposedly they don't know what they are being 

scolded for, IMO this is BS, I can tell by the look on their face and their body language that 

they had a good idea they shouldn't have done what they did. Dogs are way smarter and 

have better memories than what most people know. At night you either crate them close to 

your bed or you put them on a short lead tied to the bed post on your side of the bed. My 

preferred method is to let them sleep in the bed between my wife and myself, this is very 

comforting to them and will allow you to get some sleep those first few nights. Regardless 

what method you use, they need to be taken out every couple of hours or when they whine. 

You shouldn't let them drink a lot before bedtime and you have to be consistent on

their feeding time to get them into a # 2 routine.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Deno said:


> All were house broke by around 10 weeks old.
> You never let them out of your site and you take them out every 15 minutes regardless.


Yup, this is where I went wrong. My little guy had quite a few accidents because it took me a while to understand that "but I just took him out!" wasn't true: 20 minutes isn't 'just out' when you've got such a tiny bladder, lol. Especially when they're playing, they get worked up and seem to pee more frequently. I'm sure he would have been housetrained earlier if I'd have taken him out more frequently during that first week.


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## A girl and her dog (Jan 25, 2014)

Sansa's Mom said:


> I don't think it really is off-base, a lot of all-positive training can be permissive. I agree that some dogs can be corrected just with a stern voice or interruption- like I said earlier, I had a male that pretty much just needed a dirty look and that was sufficient. But not all dogs will respond to that.
> 
> Also- I am not talking about losing control and going ballistic and beating the crap out of a dog. I am talking about a loud "NO" and swat on the butt. Not to mention, that one time is the only time that it has been necessary. I think you are making this much more extreme than it really is. I also don't get why people freak out over corrections like that, but consider prong collars and such to be totally ok ( I don't know if you are ok with prong collars, just saying). It seems like some kinds of physical corrections are ok, and others are taboo.
> 
> ...


I could not agree with this more. All-positive is permissive, IMO, hands down. I'm not sure why some feel the need to push back so hard. You're right- every dog is different. Swatting them on the butt doesn't make a person too stupid to train their dog. Like you said- it's a last resort when all else has failed. I've done exactly what you described and it worked exactly like you said. 

I'm a firm believer in correction training as well. Heck, dogs do it to each other! They nip, growl, bite, etc. to let each other know what the limits are. My cat has NO problem applying slight physical pain when the pup gets too rambunctious with him. It's natural! Domestic dogs are not THAT far away from their pack ancestors, so that argument is useless. My pup walked into the kennel where my Chi was napping, and started peeing! The Chi growled at him! To let him know that was not appropriate! He would have bitten at him if I hadn't intervened (which I wouldn't have if I'd have realized first why he was growling). 

The other person that said that it will only inhibit them to going in front of you is right too, to an extent. They WILL get over that with just a few times of going in front of you and having a party thrown about it. 

My pup is at the stage where he knows to go out - he tee's immediately upon going outside, but still thinks it's okay to go in the house too. Time for a swat and a NO!


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## Zlata (Aug 31, 2013)

Sansa's Mom said:


> Finally, my husband caught her in the act, yelled loud and swatted her on the butt.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My issue with this primarily stems from the fact that it sounds like your husband lost his temper (and patience) and lashed out physically against a young dog. That to me does not constitute effective, well-thought out training. That to me constitutes a frustrated human at the end of his rope and nothing more.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

A girl and her dog said:


> My pup is at the stage where he knows to go out - he tee's immediately upon going outside, but still thinks it's okay to go in the house too.


How do you _know_ that he knows the only place he's supposed to pee is outside? What do you suppose his motivation is for defying you if he truly does know?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Zlata said:


> My issue with this primarily stems from the fact that it sounds like your husband lost his temper (and patience) and lashed out physically against a young dog. That to me does not constitute effective, well-thought out training. That to me constitutes a frustrated human at the end of his rope and nothing more.


Yep, pretty much.


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Zlata said:


> My issue with this primarily stems from the fact that it sounds like your husband lost his temper (and patience) and lashed out physically against a young dog. That to me does not constitute effective, well-thought out training. That to me constitutes a frustrated human at the end of his rope and nothing more.



He didn't beat it, your slightly overreacting. there's nothing wrong with a physical correction (not beating or hurting on purpose)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I've managed to housebreak several pups and have not had any real issues with rapid housebreaking, particularly with GSDs. Never felt the need to correct the dog but just take them out at key times and scoop them up quick and take them out if they started ... The males seemed a little easier but in any case it was not bad at all. I always took them out after eating, napping or drinking or playing and frequently after that. If I was not 100% watching the puppy he was crated. I typically took a few weeks off work when I got a puppy. With Beau I lucked out because I telecommute and he was crated in my office.

To be honest, your timing gets better with the more pups you have had I think. Beau came home at 10 weeks I think? Never once had an accident .....

I don't have an issue at all with correcting an older dog for violating a learned command when I am sure it knows what is expected.


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## Zlata (Aug 31, 2013)

nikon22shooter said:


> He didn't beat it, your slightly overreacting. there's nothing wrong with a physical correction (not beating or hurting on purpose)


I no where in my post said that he beat the dog. I said that it sounded like he lost his temper and acted in a way that suggests he let his frustration get the best of him. While this one anecdotal instance may have produced a result which was favored, I would certainly not advocate this method with all puppies--it's simply unnecessary. I certainly wouldn't use this method for an older dog struggling with house training, either, as it could be downright dangerous depending on the dog.


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Zlata said:


> I no where in my post said that he beat the dog. I said that it sounded like he lost his temper and acted in a way that suggests he let his frustration get the best of him. While this one anecdotal instance may have produced a result which was favored, I would certainly not advocate this method with all puppies--it's simply unnecessary. I certainly wouldn't use this method for an older dog struggling with house training, either, as it could be downright dangerous depending on the dog.



The term "lashed out" is slightly overkill for correcting a pup on the rear for going potty in the house. That would be like taking off your belt and hitting it five times over and over. To me, that's lashing out. Giving it a correction on the rear will hurt it's feelings more than it physical will. Unless like you said, someone completely lashes out, then they would have more issues than just a pup going potty in the house.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sansa's Mom said:


> Speaking from personal experience...I was going out of my mind potty training Sansa...I was taking her out every hour, rain or shine, rewarding her with high value treats, and ignoring the occasional mistake that was "my fault" because I turned my head for three seconds. *After about month, she understood that going outside was fantastic but still didn't understand not to go inside. Why? Because we were all positive and didn't want to correct her for going inside.*


You can think whatever you like, but I highly doubt that being "all positive" was the reason. A month is not that long when it comes to housebreaking a young puppy, and patience is key. It's much more likely that she just hadn't worked out the "where not to" part as quickly as she did the "where to" part of pottying. Correcting a young puppy for doing something she has no idea is "wrong" according to humans is not only counter-productive, it's just mean.


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## Zlata (Aug 31, 2013)

nikon22shooter said:


> The term "lashed out" is slightly overkill for correcting a pup on the rear for going potty in the house. That would be like taking off your belt and hitting it five times over and over. To me, that's lashing out. Giving it a correction on the rear will hurt it's feelings more than it physical will. Unless like you said, someone completely lashes out, then they would have more issues than just a pup going potty in the house.


lash out - Idioms - by the Free Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

It is solely an expression for an outburst, whether that outburst is physical or verbal. 

Semantics aside, it was inappropriate in my opinion. If my husband did that to our puppy, I would be unamused. I like to think us all and mighty humans are capable of patience!  But that's what this forum is for--sharing our opinions.


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## Oskar's Human (Jan 22, 2014)

Oskar was potty trained at ten weeks. We did not physically correct him but did say no sharply and scoop him up and take him outside. He now goes to the door. I have to say this turnaround was a but unexpected. He went from having several accidents to none at all the next day. In our defense we did take him out every half hour and crated him when he couldn't be watched. I think the crate training was the most useful, second only to the treats and afterparty. But i'm not kidding you take him out and if he is farting around, say go potty and there you have it folks a pile of poo. Pretty awesome! Back to crating: After a week of being taken out at night after whining he seemed to understand thats where he goes even when he is on the loose wreaking havoc and trying to eat us  bonus is he gets a treat and some love just for doing what he does best!


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

I've heard it all now. Hahahhaha.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Oskar's Human said:


> Oskar was potty trained at ten weeks. We did not physically correct him but did say no sharply and scoop him up and take him outside. He now goes to the door. I have to say this turnaround was a but unexpected. He went from having several accidents to none at all the next day. In our defense we did take him out every half hour and crated him when he couldn't be watched. I think the crate training was the most useful, second only to the treats and afterparty. But i'm not kidding you take him out and if he is farting around, say go potty and there you have it folks a pile of poo. Pretty awesome! Back to crating: After a week of being taken out at night after whining he seemed to understand thats where he goes even when he is on the loose wreaking havoc and trying to eat us  bonus is he gets a treat and some love just for doing what he does best!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


THIS!!! This is how to potty train a puppy! Good job! Hope people have the common sense to recognize good advice amid the many different mind-sets of puppy raising. 

And every pup is different. People just have to be patient. 

Really, swatting a pup for having an accident is like spanking a toddler for wetting their diaper . . .


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Just want to make it clear it's fine to swat a puppy BUT, just realize that when you swat 

IT IS FOR YOU TO MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER AND TO GET OUT YOUR FRUSTRATION AND AGGRAVATION.

So if you are FINE with realizing that you have to hit your puppy to sufficiently calm down and continue with the training...........then that's your training method.

If, instead, you want to actually TEACH your puppy. So they LEARN from you what's going on and not to avoid your hands, avoid you when you are coming with 'that face' and somewhat change your relationship with your dog, then swat away. 

It will work, eventually. Which is everyone's point that swatted. 

*IT WORKED.*

So if you are only interested in results and not the method, then hitting your pup will appear to show results. 

*But for me, when I know better, I do better. *And dog training has changed TREMENDOUSLY over even the past 20 years. Instead of the 'no brainer' of REACTION and hitting the puppy. Training has now become much smarter (on the human side) and for those of us who want to LEARN and become better owners/trainers this is just another instance where we can be PRO-active and use our brains to pay attention and TEACH, rather then be lazy (or distracted) and merely react and 'hit'.

MY GOALS with my pups are to teach, manage, and raise a dog that loves my hands, loves to learn, understands EXACTLY what's going on in the house cause I set them up to succeed and to well by knowing that housebreaking is MY job and responsibility to make clear to a puppy. A puppy who WILL make mistake and realizing I MAY MAKE MISTAKES TOO! So if I choose to smack that puppy who squats right in front of me...

*THEN I sure better hit myself* when I ALLOW them to leave the room to go pee out of my sight where I can't see and 'uh uh' them in the act to take them outside.

Teaching has a student and a teacher BOTH are involved. Both need to be proud when they do well and both to be BLAMED when there are backslides.

I take responsibility for each and every 'accident' in the house. I wish others would also choose to become better trainers. More involved in the process. PRO-active. Rather then blaming and smacking.


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## mchcthrn (Dec 26, 2012)

Yay, what MaggieRoseLee said, that! 

Also, for those who are saying the puppy knows to go outside, but thinks it's also okay to go inside. This is a management issue. This is not an issue where you need to bring in punishment. This is an issue where the puppy was allowed way too much freedom too soon. When the happens, the puppy will inevitable pee/poop inside. Once that happens, now you are setting up a pattern of behavior, a bad habit if you will. OF COURSE, if given the chance to pee/poop inside the house, the chances of the puppy continuing this will be very high - your house is temperature controlled, smells nice, is private… It was your job to prevent this from happening in the first place. Are you using crates, exercise pens, leashes, and baby gates to help with supervision? Are you making sure the puppy only has access to porous surfaces such as carpet, rugs, and couches after he has just peed outside within the last 15 minutes? 

I have potty trained around 10 dogs in the past 4 years, my own and fosters (including puppy mill dogs who "can't" be house trained). I can count the number of "accidents" we've had in the house on my two hands. You control where and when the dog goes pee that is your job. 

For those of you who use punishment, have your read _The Culture Clash_ by Jean Donaldson? If you haven't, here is one of my favorite parts:



> Imagine you live on a planet where the dominant species is far more intellectually sophisticated than human beings but often keep humans as companion animals. They are called the Gorns. They communicate with each other via a combination of telepathy, eye movements and high-pitched squeaks, unintelligible and unlearnable by humans, whose brains are prepared for verbal language acquisition only. What humans sometimes learn is the meaning of individual sounds by repeated association with things of relevance to them. The Gorns and humans bond strongly but there are many Gorn rules that humans must try to assimilate with limited information and usually high stakes.
> 
> You are one of the lucky humans who lives with the Gorns in their dwelling. Many other humans are chained to small cabanas in the yard or kept in outdoor pens of varying size. They have become so socially starved that they cannot control their emotions when a Gorn goes near them. Because of this behaviour, the Gorns agree that they could never be house humans. They are too excitable.
> 
> ...


I think pieces of this are a sad reality for many pet dogs.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

A girl and her dog said:


> I'm a firm believer in correction training as well. Heck, dogs do it to each other!


I don't believe in correcting baby puppies for house soiling. They don't know any better, and it's our obligation to _teach_ them where to relieve themselves. But for anyone who truly believes they should 'act like a dog' and intimidate their puppies, then I say go for it - but don't just cherry pick which dog behaviors you're going to adopt. You have to go all the way, which would include consuming the puppy's poo, like the dam would do. How would you like to do that?


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

You can pick and choose whatever method you want. Mix and match and find your own.

Training isn't black or white, because I can almost guarantee every single one of us here have corrected our dog or gave them a good verbal abuse that have scared them. If you deny it then your full of it.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The title of the thread should indicate that some things just aren't age appropriate. I doubt anyone would deny correcting their dog, lmao. That is part of training, after all.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am kind of stunned this is coming up. My parents got our SECOND dog in *1965*. The first was in 1960 and they did the rolled up newspaper, nose in poop method of dog training and did give it away after a short frustrating period of no housebreaking. 

When we got Waggles (for my 10th birthday) a kind neighbor showed them about keeping her in a small space when we could not watch her, when to take her out, OFTEN, and watching her like a hawk. and to get rid of the newspaper. Keeping her leashed with us in the house at all times. It went by without a hitch. Of course mom was a stay at home mom, too. 

Waggles was never hit once in her life with us and never had her face pushed into anything but, really, she was housebroken so quickly. Back then maybe dog people used crates but normal folks did not.

I am just sitting here thinking to myself......This was nearly FIFTY YEARS ago .... how old school does something have to get before it disappears? This was way before the purely positive movement!

FWIW I use and own a prong collar and am getting ready to do ecollar work with my dog. It is not about permissiveness, it is about how to raise a puppy. Did you ever housebreak HUMAN kids? It is pretty similar only some are a bit harder than puppies. Never smacked my kids either but going in the potty was a big to do.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

nikon22shooter said:


> Training isn't black or white, because I can almost guarantee every single one of us here have corrected our dog or gave them a good verbal abuse that have scared them. If you deny it then your full of it.


You realize this thread is about potty training a puppy, right?


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

Not sure this is how others would suggest doing it....but we had two litter mates....9 weeks old when we brought them home. 
We read that puppy's needed to potty every 1 for every month old they were. What we did....we started everything at once, hung bells on every entry and exit door that we wanted them to use. Had two crates, one for each puppy. Every two hours, we would take them to the back door, ring the bell with their tiny paw, give them a treat, open the door and take them out, when they went potty they got another treat, we would come inside, play for 20/30 mins, back to the crate....repeated every two hours for the first day...day two...they were going to the bell, ringing it and waiting for us to put their leash on. When they rang the bell, when rushed to them! Never left them alone and did not let them out of our site! By day two they knew how to alert and now at 15 months....they have never had an accident and use their bell whenever they know we can't see them waiting by the door.  


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You realize this thread is about potty training a puppy, right?


Does it matter? Training is training. 

No wonder kids nowadays are soft and get suspended for calling someone a name. 

Anyways, back to puppy training


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Training is training, but training isn't teaching. Teaching is teaching. Do you know the difference?


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Training is training, but training isn't teaching. Teaching is teaching. Do you know the difference?


Night and day. 

Example.

Your potty training a puppy. They pee in the house, you say "No" and take them outside and wait for them to go. They don't have to anymore because they already did inside.

You then take the puppy out every half hour to avoid 'accidents'.

Your now on your fourth visit outside and nothing.

You just let the puppy back in from outside and right as you close the door the puppy takes a steaming poop on your carpet.

Whats your reaction? 

Let me guess, "Awe, fluffy made a poo poo, come here fluffy, thats a good girl!"

hahaha, no. Not in my household. Does the dog deserve beat? NO. Does it deserve a FIRM no and taken outside with signs of disappointment, you betcha. 

Each accident deserves less compassion and more "teaching".

Where do you draw the line or correcting a puppy after you've been oh so nice with it? Especially when you take every precaution. 

Puppies pick up fast, they are far from dumb.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

They always have accidents at this age. I use positive reinforcement - take them outside after eating, drinking, waking up or every 2 to 3 hours, mark it by saying toilet then give a treat when they do it. If they go inside I take them outside and use the word toilet and if they go toilet I will treat them. The 'rub their nose in it' mentality is imo cruel and they will learn far quicker with good experiences. They eventually get it then you can start slowly phase the treating out. Also you can limit their water intake - just give them what they need so that they are not taking in excessive amounts of water which will set them up for easy accidents.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You go outside with the puppy until it does poo. You take it too its spot and if you are out there 20 minutes you are out there 20 minutes; I don't care if it is raining or snowing or what. Then if it does not go you don't give it a chance to poo in the house. It either goes into its crate or is right by your side so you can catch it in the act.

No emotion when caught in the act scoop them up; take them out. Clean up the mess and use a product (enzyme based vinegar etc) to get it good and clean.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

nikon22shooter said:


> Where do you draw the line or correcting a puppy after you've been oh so nice with it? Especially when you take every precaution.
> 
> Puppies pick up fast, they are far from dumb.


Yes, they do learn fast. They can learn that you will punish them for something they don't understand. They can learn that you are unfair and overly harsh, someone to be wary of. That guilty look your dog has is not understanding of wrongdoing, but rather understanding that punishment follows the particular posture you have.

I draw the line with a dog, and give corrections, after a behavior is learned by the dog. Punishment before that is unfair and often misunderstood by the dog. The one thing I don't want to happen is for the dog to be worried that it is not allowed to make a mistake. This can create a dog that is afraid to try something new.

None of this is rocket science, new thinking or unproven. Like Nancy, I can't believe that this discussion even exists today. We knew better in the early 70's.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

nikon22shooter said:


> Puppies pick up fast, they are far from dumb.


Oh good, you're not oblivious as to how quickly they pick up on things. Why you'd think I'd praise a pup for pooping in the house is a mystery though. Weird...although I suppose if you're using an extreme exaggeration to demonstrate why you're "right" then I guess I understand. 

My puppy never pooped in the house, actually. He did have some pee accidents, when I let the time fly while we were playing and didn't get him out in time. It really wasn't rocket science - outside after sleeping, outside after meals, and outside at regular intervals through the day. Big celebrations when he did the deed outside, and scooping him up midstream inside and letting him finish where it belonged did the trick. No butt smacks were needed, nor stern words. Oh, I guess I got the smart one


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

David - I agree with every single thing you said. I would never punish a puppy for something they didn't understand, and before someone jumps in and says a puppy doesn't understand they aren't suppose to go potty in the house. Yes, this is correct. But after the tenth time? Theres a fine line, and scooping them up over and over, they should start picking up on the concept. I've even helped out some co-workers using the old bell on the door trick, and they said it worked wonders.

So before you think I'm a puppy beating scary person, I'm not. I just think some people are too soft when it comes to training and they are too worried about hurting someones feelings. Definitely not how I was raised. 

Sorry for being thicked skin and old fashion.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Every accident a puppy has had in my home has been 100% my fault, they are just little guys lol, and when i caught them mid squat i would scoop them up and run out the door chanting pee pees outside!! i call it the pee pee chant and everyone does it!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

nikon22shooter said:


> I just think some people are too soft when it comes to training and they are too worried about hurting someones feelings.


No, what it is, is that many of us are ancient and used compulsion back in the day when that's what you did - now we're using different methods because dog training has come a long way, and we're getting better results with different methods. And as far as hurting feelings go, we're just avoiding getting banned there.


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> No, what it is, is that many of us are ancient and used compulsion back in the day when that's what you did - now we're using different methods because dog training has come a long way, and we're getting better results with different methods. And as far as hurting feelings go, we're just avoiding getting banned there.


I can guarantee you, my "methods" are far less different than most of the people on here, I'm just open to admit I'm *firm*, *fair*, and *fun* with my dogs.

If your worried about getting banned on a internet forum, you need to reevaulate your life. Just saying


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Nah, I'm ok with deleting a bunch of text, lol.


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Good to hear


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You realize this thread is about potty training a puppy, right?





nikon22shooter said:


> Does it matter? Training is training.


Yes, it does. If you want to have a philosophical discussion about using corrections in dog training, that's fine. Feel free to start a new thread on that topic. THIS thread is about housing breaking a puppy. Most people these days realize that using corrections, such as smacking the puppy, is not advisable _under these circumstances,_ and it's in that context that people are answering the question. What you'd do in some other circumstance is beside the point.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Something I don't understand is the reason people believe the puppy fails. Do they think the puppy is pooping out of spite or something? If the reward is consistently present at poop time, do they think the puppy is too lazy to walk to the door? 

I do not specify a number of repetitions necessary for a dog to learn a behavior. Different dogs have different learning capacities. Different things can influence what the dog associates with reward or punishment.

Here's how I do it. 15 minutes after poop/pee inducing activities, I go hang out by the door with the puppy and play. As soon as the dog sniffs the ground, indicating potty time, I make a huge party at the door. I open the door and head out with the dog on its own legs (if possible) and keep myself interesting all the way to the potty spot. I mark and reward at the door, at the potty spot, and after the deal is done.

I (hopefully) just built the foundation for the chain of behaviors cued by the need to poop. As with all new behaviors, I lure the dog to do the right thing himself, instead of doing it for them. I set up conditions for them to succeed and for me to reward each step of the process.

There is a fundamental difference in extinguishing a behavior through punishment or replacement. Whenever possible, I chose replacement. 

I'm not some pansy trainer that can't stand the thought of corrections. I'll snap up a puppy by the scruff for certain things. Failing to understand where to eliminate is not one of them.


David Winners


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

David Winners said:


> I'm not some pansy trainer that can't stand the thought of corrections. I'll snap up a puppy by the scruff for certain things. Failing to understand where to eliminate is not one of them.
> 
> 
> David Winners


:thumbup: I agree with the first part too, about why a puppy would poop in the house deliberately, if they truly did understand they weren't supposed to. Dogs do what works to get what they want, and what could a puppy possibly gain by doing that???


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i did the same thing. i did raise my voice a little. my pup was
house broken in 11 days. i continued to take him out often.



trcy said:


> I didn't really discipline If I caught him in the act I would say "no, no...you potty outside." Then take him out to the potty place.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

nikon22shooter said:


> So before you think I'm a puppy beating scary person, I'm not. I just think some people are too soft when it comes to training and they are too worried about hurting someones feelings. Definitely not how I was raised.
> 
> Sorry for being thicked skin and old fashion.


I understand where your thought process comes from. I am a disciplinarian at heart. I'm a Sergeant in combat arms. I get it 

I don't think you are beating your puppy. I also don't think you are giving the puppy time to learn the behavior you want. Teaching a puppy to sit on command takes way more than 10 reps, and that is a simple behavior.

Going to the door, alerting, walking outside to a location and then pooping is pretty complex for a pup to understand. You see a correction may teach the pup not to go, but it has to connect all those dots in its head.

It's going to go whether it knows it's wrong or not. It doesn't have a choice. 

Consider this. You are left handed. You decide to visit a country in the middle east by yourself. You get off the plane and someone greets you, and you extend your left hand in greeting to shake their hand. They slap you and say some harsh words you don't understand.

20 minutes later, someone else greets you in a restaurant and extends their right hand to you in offer of a handshake. You subconsciously reciprocate with your right hand because you are conditioned to do so out of habit. All goes well.

20 minutes later, you meet another friendly person and extend your left hand in greeting and you get slapped and reprimanded again.

You may connect the dots. It may take a few more reps. Would it be more fair if someone could explain that they wipe their butts with their left hand, and offering it in greeting is an insult? They told you the first time, but you didn't understand. You have a big mature brain and higher learning power and you still may not understand.

Give the pup a chance. 


David Winners


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what behaviour do you "snap up a pup by the scruff"? do think
a pup knows the difference in tearing up your $500.00 loafers
or a news paper?



David Winners said:


> Something I don't understand is the reason people believe the puppy fails. Do they think the puppy is pooping out of spite or something? If the reward is consistently present at poop time, do they think the puppy is too lazy to walk to the door?
> 
> I do not specify a number of repetitions necessary for a dog to learn a behavior. Different dogs have different learning capacities. Different things can influence what the dog associates with reward or punishment.
> 
> ...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> what behaviour do you "snap up a pup by the scruff"? do think
> a pup knows the difference in tearing up your $500.00 loafers
> or a news paper?


I wouldn't scruff a pup for chewing anything but skin. If a pup chews something up it's not allowed to chew, it's my fault. If a pup bites me hard repeatedly I will pick it up by the scruff.

Bite inhibition is another thread though.

David Winners


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Sansa's Mom said:


> I don't think it really is off-base, a lot of all-positive training can be permissive.


Not swatting a dog is not being "all positive." Nor is it the same as permissive. 



> Also- I am not talking about losing control and going ballistic and beating the crap out of a dog. I am talking about a loud "NO" and swat on the butt.


Let's call it what it is. It's hitting a dog while couching it in terms of "swatting." If it's just a swat, doesn't really hurt, and is really that harmless, why do it at all? IMO, hitting a dog teaches them to not trust the hand. And that's pretty big deal when you need to handle them...touch their ears, paws, mouth, etc. Get the wrong dog on the wrong day and it's an accident waiting to happen. Especially with a dog that can do the kind of damage a German Shepherd can do. Why set the dog up for failure? 

Not to mention, it's completely unnecessary (and counter-productive) to "swat" for housebreaking. Show me someone who has to "swat" their dog to get compliance for housebreaking and I'll show you someone who lacks the knowledge to train their dog. 

I've never had to swat a dog to housebreak them...and I've had Siberian Huskies, Chows, German Shepherds, Goldens, etc. I've also fostered many dogs who were older and not house-trained....Rotties, Pits, mixes. Not a swat to be had. And it's not like some of these dogs weren't untrained, difficult or hard.  It takes patience, consistency, and clear communication of what you want.

I always liked the saying, "If you see that your dog had an accident in the house, find a newspaper, roll it up, and hit yourself over the head." The mistake is yours...not the dog's.


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Its kind of like beating a dead horse, people still do it


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