# Best Guard Dog Breed?



## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

I would love to hear people's opinions and experiences when it comes to guard/protection dogs. It's something that I've always been interested in, but never really required. 

So what breed do you think makes the most capable guard/protection dog (generally)? I don't want to state my opinion just yet (I don't want my opinion to influence your choices. I just want your raw/personal opinion.). With that said, I'm inclined to believe that it's not the GSD.

I'm not looking for a new dog any time in the foreseeable future. I'm just asking out of pure curiosity. 

If you consider this a different category, what dog do you think has the highest "stopping power"? 

I hope I chose the right place for this thread


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

They had a dog on the Berlin Wall A russian cossack dog It's breeding was to rip the throat out of a running wolf The Russians used it to do the same to running communist If the handler went down the dog got shot
Myself I take the german shepherd's dog Call them my single action 44 locked and cocked Both make a mighty roar and leave impressive holes


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

I've never met a welcoming Chow, and come to think of it, neither have I met a welcoming Akita.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

For protection, the only breed developed solely for personal protection..The Doberman. 

For guarding...something like a Black Russian Terrier would be pretty intimidating.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

For protection. A solid working GSD with necessary sharpness

For guarding. Maybe a big mastiff type


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

For personal protection and guarding I say the Doberman.

I have 4 Dobermans in my life right now and all of them are excellent watch/guard dogs. I baby sit 2 of them at my house every now and then and they all start guarding my yard immediately. They make sure their presence is known and watch people walk past or they alert me to whatever is going on outside.

My GSD has protected me from 2 men in the past and he alerts me when he hears something going on and he does guard his yard but I still believe the Doberman is a better breed when it comes to guarding/watching/protecting.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I think it depends on the type of guarding work as to which breed is best, and of course the individual dog.

At the end of the day, the best guard dog/PP dog is a trained one, and the breed doesn't really matter.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

blackshep nailed it!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

blackshep said:


> I think it depends on the type of guarding work as to which breed is best, and of course the individual dog.
> 
> At the end of the day, the best guard dog/PP dog is a trained one, and the breed doesn't really matter.


There is a reason professional protection dogs are almost exclusively 2 breeds


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I was at a Schutzhund seminar this past weekend and the TD/helper said something that really stuck with me…”Rare breeds are rare for a reason, if they were capable of doing the work, there would be more of them.” 

As to the Dobermans guarding? Lots of dogs bark when there is a fence between them and the threat. The true test is seeing what happens when the threat starts to move in on the dog. Most Dobermans I've seen...leave a lot to be desired.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

i have seen plenty of trained dobes that would eat intruders for a midnight snack.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

hunterisgreat said:


> There is a reason professional protection dogs are almost exclusively 2 breeds



I agree. But guarding and PP aren't quite the same thing, for guarding, I think there are a number of breeds that would suit. For PP, I suspect my top two picks would be the same as yours


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

blackshep said:


> I agree. But guarding and PP aren't quite the same thing, for guarding, I think there are a number of breeds that would suit.


I agree. That's why I didn't even name a breed for guarding lol


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> i have seen plenty of trained dobes that would eat intruders for a midnight snack.


I work a lot of dobs, been around a lot more. Ask any working dobie person and they will tell you it's incredibly hard to find a good dobie that can work

Nicest working dobs I know of are john kowalczyk's and I believe he is importing from Sweden or Finland or something. I can buy an awesome working GSD in an afternoons drive


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

That's interesting how the whole "patrolling" behaviour was mentioned. I never really considered that. I always thought that most dogs will go into their "patrol" if they felt that something strange was going on. Because of that I always considered the Rottweiler to be the most capable guard dog. Kind of a stereotypical opinion, but I always though that their extra mass, bite and laid back temperament made them the best guard dog. I suppose their chunkiness makes them less agile then some of the other working breeds. 

I also felt that the Anatolian Shepherd would be a great guarding dog because of their mass and the fact that they're taller than most dog breeds.

As far as the Doberman being "breed for protection", I never really gave it credit for that. It may have been designed for that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best at it. I've also seen a lot of Dobermans that look kind of frail, although I have seen many more muscular ones.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Also depends on what we are guarding. A thing? A herd? A junkyard? The front porch? Different breeds excel at different tasks.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Anatolian Shepherds are a LGD, I wouldn't say they'd be a good choice for PP or guarding in the sense that you are thinking of. Their breeding lends itself to be an independent thinker, able to work without human direction, which I would think would make them difficult to train.

I think a Rottie would be a good estate guard dog/deterrent and good at keeping people out, but I wouldn't pick them for a PP dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> I work a lot of dobs, been around a lot more. Ask any working dobie person and they will tell you it's incredibly hard to find a good dobie that can work
> 
> Nicest working dobs I know of are john kowalczyk's and I believe he is importing from Sweden or Finland or something. I can buy an awesome working GSD in an afternoons drive


That was basically his point...there are great examples of each breed, but they're so few and far between that its basically not worth looking for them. And the only way you'll get the "good" one is if you're already in the know and working dogs.

For the average person, it would be a shot in the dark to find a "good" dobe or anything else. A GSD...2 hour drive at most in my area.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

hunterisgreat said:


> I work a lot of dobs, been around a lot more. Ask any working dobie person and they will tell you it's incredibly hard to find a good dobie that can work
> 
> Nicest working dobs I know of are john kowalczyk's and I believe he is importing from Sweden or Finland or something. I can buy an awesome working GSD in an afternoons drive


Is there a particular reason for Dobermans being difficult to work with?


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

The question was posted about the Breed, not the level/quality of training. 

A Giant Schnauzer is yet another breed that excels in guarding... depending on what/who needs to be guarded.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

martemchik said:


> That was basically his point...there are great examples of each breed, but they're so few and far between that its basically not worth looking for them. And the only way you'll get the "good" one is if you're already in the know and working dogs.
> 
> For the average person, it would be a shot in the dark to find a "good" dobe or anything else. A GSD...2 hour drive at most in my area.


My point was for a dobie guy in the dobie community it's still a shot in the dark lol. I've met several very experienced dobie guys still looking for that solid working dobie


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

hunterisgreat said:


> Also depends on what we are guarding. A thing? A herd? A junkyard? The front porch? Different breeds excel at different tasks.


I was thinking about protecting a home (House, yard, condo, or other personal property). I would add people, but that would seem to fall right under personal protection.

What are some of the key differences between the traits that you want in a guard dog and a personal protection dog?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> Is there a particular reason for Dobermans being difficult to work with?


Less natural prey drive, more defense for the guarding that you are talking about. Unfortunately, like all breeds, they've been "modernized" in a way and the guarding has kind of been bred out since pets don't need to be dangerous.

I guess we're talking about different things, but IMO guarding/PP/bite work are all so closely related. If you're talking about just leaving a dog on your property to maul whatever comes near, I'm sure that there are plenty of breeds/dogs that will do that for you, and in that case, the bigger the better.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yup , a friend imported an amazing working Dobermann from Sweden. Ears natural , tail natural . Very well muscled . Strong . Sturdy . Not at all like the "local" Dobes - not physically , not temperamentally. 

She went back to Sweden , to the same breeder and brought home a female pup.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> My point was for a dobie guy in the dobie community it's still a shot in the dark lol. I've met several very experienced dobie guys still looking for that solid working dobie


By "his" I meant the TD/helper I worked with this weekend, lol. Not speaking for you.

But its nice to see that another experienced helper has that same opinion.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

blackshep said:


> Anatolian Shepherds are a LGD, I wouldn't say they'd be a good choice for PP or guarding in the sense that you are thinking of. Their breeding lends itself to be an independent thinker, able to work without human direction, which I would think would make them difficult to train.
> 
> I think a Rottie would be a good estate guard dog/deterrent and good at keeping people out, but I wouldn't pick them for a PP dog.


I've never though of LGD's being independent thinkers. I always though that if it was breed to kill a wolf, it'd be even better and defending against people.

Why wouldn't you pick a Rottweiler as a personal protection dog? I always though they would be the best at it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> Why wouldn't you pick a Rottweiler as a personal protection dog? I always though they would be the best at it.


Trainability is usually the answer.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I've never though of LGD's being independent thinkers. I always though that if it was breed to kill a wolf, it'd be even better and defending against people.


 You want a dog you can call off who will listen to you


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Trainability is usually the answer.


So for guarding, you're just looking for a large dog that has the inclination to attack trespassers and potential criminals?

For personal protection, you want that same thing but in a much more trainable package? 

If I'm understanding this correctly, personal protection dogs are of a higher standard than guard dogs?


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

charlieb.barkin said:


> if i'm understanding this correctly, personal protection dogs are of a higher standard than guard dogs?


yes.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> So for guarding, you're just looking for a large dog that has the inclination to attack trespassers and potential criminals?
> 
> For personal protection, you want that same thing but in a much more trainable package?
> 
> If I'm understanding this correctly, personal protection dogs are of a higher standard than guard dogs?


I think everyone has a different idea of each of those terms. To me...PP is a reactive dog, it reacts to a threat, and in most situations at the word of the handler.

A guard dog...just makes it sound like you're talking what most of us like to think of as a "junkyard dog" a dog that just bites whatever hops the fence. Something big, something angry, something loud...

IMO...you'd have a hard time taking a guard dog out and about with you. Where as a PP...its always with you no matter where you are. It's a good, civil, dog that will do what is asked of it ONLY when its asked to do it. A guard dog...probably thinks for itself, and is highly likely to believe everything in life is a threat that needs to be subdued.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I think everyone has a different idea of each of those terms. To me...PP is a reactive dog, it reacts to a threat, and in most situations at the word of the handler.
> 
> A guard dog...just makes it sound like you're talking what most of us like to think of as a "junkyard dog" a dog that just bites whatever hops the fence. Something big, something angry, something loud...
> 
> IMO...you'd have a hard time taking a guard dog out and about with you. Where as a PP...its always with you no matter where you are. It's a good, civil, dog that will do what is asked of it ONLY when its asked to do it. A guard dog...probably thinks for itself, and is highly likely to believe everything in life is a threat that needs to be subdued.


Okay, with that info, I guess I am going to narrow this down to just Personal Protection dogs.

So what breeds would make good personal protection dogs? 
I always thought that the Rottweiler was a very trainable dog. Was I misled?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

PP I'd do a Mali or GSD


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is a very good working Dobe that I saw pretty much days after he arrived in Canada as a pup . He is owned by a friend which gave me the opportunity to see the dog in several social settings and to follow his development.
The dog can track too !

He is primarily worked in prey , which is a shame , because I have seen him worked better and properly , and the boy has good fight , shows himself and his potential , where he shines. Always stable and social . Totally trustworthy dog. Not reactive .

he is from Mezzrow our dogs

and here he is at 9 months Mezzrow's Miller 9 Mos - Working Dog Photo Gallery 

went to a dog show as an alternate handler for a friend who had multiple entries with Leonbergers.
As it happens this was "Miles'" (the Dobe) first exposure to the larger Dobie crowd --- So I went to hang out with Mile's owner , Donna , and was frankly surprised by some of the comments . Here is a ripped , physically and mentally strong dog , with so much to offer to pedigrees , and people focused on the ears and the tail and how they couldn't get used to it . If memory serves right I believe one person said they didn't want to introduce this trait into their lines !!!???!!! Like what? I remember having an animated , disbelief conversation with Donna after that one .

great dog .


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

carmspack said:


> yup , a friend imported an amazing working Dobermann from Sweden. Ears natural , tail natural . Very well muscled . Strong . Sturdy . Not at all like the "local" Dobes - not physically , not temperamentally.
> 
> She went back to Sweden , to the same breeder and brought home a female pup.


John kowalczyks was the first natural dob I'd ever seen lol. When he brought the dog out to do a blind search and B&H I remember thinking "no way! This guys training a coonhound in IPO" lol


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

a pp dog reacts when told. A guard dog should be independent once told to guard, or left to guard (ala junkyard dog style. Just a mean sob that cannot not guard)


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I always thought that the Rottweiler was a very trainable dog. Was I misled?


I think that again depends on your definition of trainable.

The average person can very easily train a GSD, and probably easily train a good, well balanced, hard working rott. But those are few and far between. It's all about that one particular dog, and how trainable it is, hard to say with a breed.

I've seen some very well trained rotts...but those were by people with tons of experience in working with that breed. And they were also all imports.

It all comes down to drives, GSDs have higher prey drive which is very useful in training a dog. You're likely to find that there is a higher majority of GSDs (WL) that have that trainability than rotts do.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I think that again depends on your definition of trainable.
> 
> The average person can very easily train a GSD, and probably easily train a good, well balanced, hard working rott. But those are few and far between. It's all about that one particular dog, and how trainable it is, hard to say with a breed.
> 
> ...


It's unfortunate that you would need to have a dog imported if you want a solid working dog. 

So on that list of "Best Personal Protection Dog Breeds": we have the German Shepherd and the Belgian Malinois? Are there any others? I hear that the Belgian Malinois can be very neurotic and that it really need a lot more activity than a German Shepherd, so it seems like it wouldn't been a suitable dog for most people, even less so than the German Shepherd. 

Also, what does WL mean?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Mals are unforgiving. They’re great dogs…but not for a novice handler. If you make a mistake during training, it can be hard to erase what they’ve learned and teach the proper thing. But…if you’re good, they can be ready much faster than a GSD can be. With Mals, you’re also likely to need to import if you truly do have a need for a real good PP…fortunately, IMO, you can probably find a solid GSD in the states that is capable of the work.

WL is working line.

I’m speaking in a lot of generalities, which I hate doing. But in this case, it kind of holds. I’m sure we’ll have some people that wake up and then decide to disprove what has been said by stating they’ve met X amount of great this or that in their life. But the truth is, you do tend to find more GSDs and Mals that are capable of that type of work without having to really search the ends of the world. Like in Carmen's story...going all the way to Sweden and on top of that, not having any American breeders wanting to use the dog to get that type of temperament in their lines. That's also not unheard of in the GSD world...I hang with enough American Line breeders to know what they think of my dog and how they think he's crazy.

Then again…I can post a video of what I would expect from a PP dog, and half the people on this forum will take time ripping apart every second of the work stating that it’s not a real dog. Could probably do the same with a K9, not tell people it’s a working K9, and they’ll still find faults in it.

The key with PP is finding the right trainer, someone that knows what they’re doing and not just blowing smoke up your you know what. It’s having the right dog…but also having the right information on how to get the dog where it needs to be. It’s probably harder to find the right person, than it is the dog.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

For "alerting" purposes, geese make great guards, not much slips past them, lol


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I believe that a stable nerved, well bred, Boerboel makes an excellent guard dog. That's what they were bred for. To guard the farm and stop anything that threatens it. They have a very high regard for their family and home. A good guard dog, in my opinion, isn't reactive and is perfectly fine to take in public. You run into those issues when you have a poorly bred dog and no training (junk yard type). 

As far as PP, I have not dabbled into that area, but I would assume a dog of medium to large size, with a trained bite and release.. very stable and leaves decisions up to the handler.. more leaning towards GSDs and Mals for this one.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Mals are unforgiving. They’re great dogs…but not for a novice handler. If you make a mistake during training, it can be hard to erase what they’ve learned and teach the proper thing. But…if you’re good, they can be ready much faster than a GSD can be. With Mals, you’re also likely to need to import if you truly do have a need for a real good PP…fortunately, IMO, you can probably find a solid GSD in the states that is capable of the work.
> 
> WL is working line.
> 
> ...


With charlie being my first GSD, and my first "large" dog, I've made so many mistakes during his training that it's not even funny. I researches on and off for years and I though I knew what I was doing, but I soon learned that I didn't . It's nearly 3 years later and I'm still training him and correcting my errors. It's a long learning process, but he's taking to it well.

After reading this: German Shepherd Guide - Home

I can now see how poor of a breeding background my dog comes form. He's still a great dog and I love him no less, but he doesn't exhibit a lot of the "standard" GSD traits. 

He is certainly not from a working line.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

wyoung2153 said:


> A good guard dog, in my opinion, isn't reactive and is perfectly fine to take in public. You run into those issues when you have a poorly bred dog and no training (junk yard type).


You misunderstood reactive in this context. Reactive as in it reacts to threats rather than prevents them.

And unfortunately, there is probably very little actual experience this is coming from. Many of us have never met a real "guard" or "PP" dog, and have never trained one to do that, so we're all talking in hypotheticals and in what we would want out of a dog. When you truly get down to training a dog to do X or Y, you realize other aspects of their lives are affected by it and that their world and training is very black and white.

IMO, it would be very hard to teach a dog that it can think for itself and therefore guard the homestead, and then move it to another venue where it has to look to the handler for direction.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I was thinking about protecting a home (House, yard, condo, or other personal property). I would add people, but that would seem to fall right under personal protection.


I still say the Doberman.

Maybe other members have seen Dobermans that are overly friendly or not protective or whatever but the 4 currently in my life guard their property and they do an excellent job.

I did know one Doberman that passed away years ago that was not a great guard dog though.

I also believe that the Doberman wins over the GSD in the intimidation category as well. 

Recently I was walking my GSD, my Dalmatian and my cousin's male Doberman and several people stopped their vehicles to make comments or stopped walking to make comments and the majority of the comments were "I bet no one messes with you with that Doberman around" or "Dobermans scare the heck out of me" or "look at that red dog, he's huge" I even got a "babe that's the dog I want, a Doberman, I want that to watch the house." Now my GSD is large, he is the same size as the Doberman and the majority of the time people think he's a wolf or a wolf mix but he was basically invisible next to the Doberman. Although I did get a couple of "pretty dogs."


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## Girth (Jan 27, 2011)

Nigel said:


> For "alerting" purposes, geese make great guards, not much slips past them, lol


 
Or guineas. Another plus they eat ticks.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

Nigel said:


> For "alerting" purposes, geese make great guards, not much slips past them, lol


Lets step that up a notch and get a cassowary. Now that's a formidable guard animal. XD


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

LaRen616 said:


> I still say the Doberman.
> 
> Maybe other members have seen Dobermans that are overly friendly or not protective or whatever but the 4 currently in my life guard their property and they do an excellent job.
> 
> ...


IMO The Doberman has very striking features and is very high up on the "Most Beautiful Dog According to Me" list. It would be right next to the Husky. But out of all the common dog breeds, I don't think anything comes close to the Rottweiler in terms of the intimidation factor. I've always seen them as bigger, more muscular, chunkier, stronger jawed versions of the Doberman, although they may be less athletic. I do believer they're the dog that the Doberman was bred from.

Don't Dobermans have a weird bite? I heard that it's more like a bunch of rapid nips than a bite and hold.

I saved this picture when I was looking for a load bearing harness for my dog:









This is the most beautiful Doberman I've ever seen.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I still say the Doberman.
> 
> Maybe other members have seen Dobermans that are overly friendly or not protective or whatever but the 4 currently in my life guard their property and they do an excellent job.
> 
> ...


Where have you been with a Doberman where it's protection has actually been tested? Other than a random stranger pulling their car up on the street and making a comment? Have any of the 4 Dobermans currently in your life been evaluated by someone that knows what they're talking about? Or is all the protection just barking from behind a fence?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Where have you been with a Doberman where it's protection has actually been tested? Other than a random stranger pulling their car up on the street and making a comment? Have any of the 4 Dobermans currently in your life been evaluated by someone that knows what they're talking about? Or is all the protection just barking from behind a fence?


When people come up to the door, when people come up to the car when they are in it and yes when people come up to the fence.

My idea of protection/guarding is when the dog doesn't allow someone into the yard or into the home when the owner is not home or is not standing there beside it.

No they have not been "evaluated" and my GSD has not been evaluated and yet he actually did protect me from 2 men that approached me in an alley.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The point is…that a dog’s bark, growling, ect…will get 99% of people to back off and go away. If that’s what you want, that’s perfect for you. IF you’re talking about a true PP or guard dog, that will react if the threat actually challenges the dog, it has to be tested and evaluated. MOST dogs that bark and make loud noises when inside a car, or inside a fence, are doing it out of fear. It’s a “I’m here, don’t come in here or I’ll do something!” and their “bluff” is never called. So they win, and they keep doing it.

When a dog gets evaluated, shows what it has in regards to actually defending someone and actually confronting an individual…that’s when you find out what the dog has. In all your situations…the dogs have only ONE choice when it comes to fight or flight. In an open area…they have more than that, and the majority of dogs will chose flight. A dog on its own territory, or in its vehicle, isn’t a true test of a dog’s guarding ability…it’s more likely showing fear.

My in-laws have a west highland white terrier that barks at everything that comes to the door…it doesn’t make him a great guard dog because the moment you make any kind of actual threatening move, he’ll run away. 

IMO…a good guard dog would stay silent. It would show confidence and the moment it gets a chance, take down the threat. It doesn’t want to scare the threat away, it wants to fight the threat and neutralize it.

In your situation, its not the Doberman that's keeping the people out of the yard, its the perception that the breed, or that any large dog has. Any dog can do what those Dobermans are doing. But if you're talking actually training a breed to do protection work...a good Doberman is extremely hard to come by.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> For protection, the only breed developed solely for personal protection..The Doberman.


THIS!!!

From all of my research on dog breeds and studying their original purpose and history, the Doberman is the ONLY dog ever "designed" and bred to be a personal guard dog for humans. Other dog breeds have a natural tendency to guard and protect, but that was never their original purpose; similar to how our GSDs are great guard/protection dogs, but were originally sheep herding dogs.

Dobermans are still my favorite breed, and one day I will own one!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

counter said:


> THIS!!!
> 
> From all of my research on dog breeds and studying their original purpose and history, the Doberman is the ONLY dog ever "designed" and bred to be a personal guard dog for humans. Other dog breeds have a natural tendency to guard and protect, but that was never their original purpose; similar to how our GSDs are great guard/protection dogs, but were originally sheep herding dogs.
> 
> Dobermans are still my favorite breed, and one day I will own one!


The Doberman is one of my 3 favorite breeds and I will be getting a female in a year or two!


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

counter said:


> THIS!!!
> 
> From all of my research on dog breeds and studying their original purpose and history, the Doberman is the ONLY dog ever "designed" and bred to be a personal guard dog for humans. Other dog breeds have a natural tendency to guard and protect, but that was never their original purpose; similar to how our GSDs are great guard/protection dogs, but were originally sheep herding dogs.
> 
> Dobermans are still my favorite breed, and one day I will own one!


The fact that they were designed to protect people doesn't necessarily mean that they're the best at it. I'm not saying that they're not great at it (I wouldn't know), but I don't see how a Doberman could protect you better than other, larger breeds. Yes, they're gorgeous and intimidating, but I always thought they looked kind of lanky.

I would also think that their long and narrow jaw would mean that they would have a less effective bite than a wider one.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> As far as the Doberman being "breed for protection", I never really gave it credit for that. It may have been designed for that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best at it. I've also seen a lot of Dobermans that look kind of frail, although I have seen many more muscular ones.


I know that the Euro lines of Dobies are more compact and muscular, whereas the American lines do look frail and skinny to me as well. When I get my Dobe, it will certainly be Euro working lines. I prefer the muscular look. Both of my GSDs are German lines for the same reason. Nara is West German show lines, and Kaze is British/German lines.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I had a young (2 year old) Dobe bitch nail my father when he came into my house, unannounced, one time.

I had only had her about 2 or 3 weeks, and she had never seen him, and I forgot to tell him about the new dog. I was home in the kitchen, and he let himself in the house, like he was used to doing with my other Dobe. I heard both of the Dobes go to the door, and as my father moved out of the entryway, the new Dobe grabbed him by the butt (actually where his butt met his thigh). I heard him yell "OUCH she bit me!!!". She had him trapped in the dining room, and I flew in there, and called her off. She spent the rest of the evening sucking up to him on the couch. 

One dog. One story. As far as I was concerned, she did her job.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

counter said:


> THIS!!!
> 
> From all of my research on dog breeds and studying their original purpose and history, the Doberman is the ONLY dog ever "designed" and bred to be a personal guard dog for humans. Other dog breeds have a natural tendency to guard and protect, but that was never their original purpose; similar to how our GSDs are great guard/protection dogs, but were originally sheep herding dogs.
> 
> Dobermans are still my favorite breed, and one day I will own one!


I'm more interested in actual experiences and first hand research rather than reading internet forums and websites. Like I've said, and like what an actual helper has said...Dobermans might have a reputation, but its not warranted, at least not in this decade. I just watched a Doberman that the owners claimed was "protective." The dog would barely take a long jute tug into his mouth...I've never seen a helper work so hard to get a dog to engage him.

The GSD was not developed as sheep herding dogs. They were developed as a working dog. The reason they can herd sheep is that out of the 4 original breeds used in the GSD, 2 were sheep herding dogs so they have that instinct. The end goal was not to produce a "better" sheep herder. It was to produce a better working dog. This is why only a short time later, Schutzhund was developed for the GSD...and last I checked, that has nothing to do with sheep. If the GSD was meant to herd sheep...the breed test would've included some sort of herding test right?


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

counter said:


> I know that the Euro lines of Dobies are more compact and muscular, whereas the American lines do look frail and skinny to me as well. When I get my Dobe, it will certainly be Euro working lines. I prefer the muscular look. Both of my GSDs are German lines for the same reason. Nara is West German show lines, and Kaze is British/German lines.


Why is it that American GSDs, Rottweilers and Dobermans are skinnier than their German counterparts?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

We have a Akbash on our street, i went out to do the garbages the other day and this man was walking by with him. I said "gorgeous dog" and the dog immediatly put himself between me and the man and raised his head real high and let out one heck of low growl.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> Why is it that American GDS, Rottweilers and Dobermans are skinnier and their German counterparts?


better diet?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Where have you been with a Doberman where it's protection has actually been tested? Other than a random stranger pulling their car up on the street and making a comment? Have any of the 4 Dobermans currently in your life been evaluated by someone that knows what they're talking about? Or is all the protection just barking from behind a fence?


I'm curious what experiance do you have with the Doberman? Besides reading on the internet, or the few times you actually paid attention to another dog besides your own - or are we supposed to take your short lived experiance with dogs as gospel? 

Or perhaps this is just another thread that is going to ruined because you insist on making it all about you?


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

Please, let's not go there -_-


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I would also think that their long and narrow jaw would mean that they would have a less effective bite than a wider one.


 
I was running a 20 lb terrier mix at flyball who regripped his tug, but missed and got my leg. He was hanging off my inner thigh and shaking. It hurt like an SOB and I still have a scar. Trust me, having a Rottie, Dobe, GSD or Mali hanging off your leg, it's going to be effective no mater what the breed is.  

martemchik, I could be mistaken, but I thought a herding test was also accepted by the WUSV in lieu of SchH? I could be mistaken, though I read that somewhere.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

blackshep said:


> I was running a 20 lb terrier mix at flyball who regripped his tug, but missed and got my leg. He was hanging off my inner thigh and shaking. It hurt like an SOB and I still have a scar. Trust me, having a Rottie, Dobe, GSD or Mali hanging off your leg, it's going to be effective no mater what the breed is.
> 
> martemchik, I could be mistaken, but I thought a herding test was also accepted by the WUSV in lieu of SchH? I could be mistaken, though I read that somewhere.


It is, the HGH is accepted as a minimum title to breed.

And yeah, I don't really think it matters what kind of dog is biting you and what the shape of their mouth is. Canines are canines and won't feel good.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

blackshep said:


> I was running a 20 lb terrier mix at flyball who regripped his tug, but missed and got my leg. He was hanging off my inner thigh and shaking. It hurt like an SOB and I still have a scar. Trust me, having a Rottie, Dobe, GSD or Mali hanging off your leg, it's going to be effective no mater what the breed is.


That's absolutely true. I was helping a friend with her dwarf hamsters and I picked one up and it started biting me. That hamster had me dancing around. I just had to endure it while she opened the gate because I didn't want to drop it. 

Although there are many dog breeds that can protect you, I'm trying to sift through them all to get as close as possible to the "Best" breed for task of personal protection. As close as possible as this forum of information gathering can allow us to go.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I would also think that their long and narrow jaw would mean that they would have a less effective bite than a wider one.


You might find this interesting:

"Dogs like the Kangal, German Shepherd dog, Doberman get better bite force results than dogs with broad thick heads.
This is because in dogs with head shapes like the Wolf of spotted Hyena,the frontal bite force is more concentrated than in dogs with broad faces."


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Lilie said:


> I'm curious what experiance do you have with the Doberman? Besides reading on the internet, or the few times you actually paid attention to another dog besides your own - or are we supposed to take your short lived experiance with dogs as gospel?
> 
> Or perhaps this is just another thread that is going to ruined because you insist on making it all about you?


I think he has made valid points in respect to the breed. GSD's were specifically brought to existence for working and are evaluated for such. Now yes you can try to use the same evaluation with other breeds, but if you have 10 dogs of each breed to evaluate, which breed do you think would have more dogs qualify or pass their evaluation? I'd put my money on the GSD every time. There is a reason you don't see Dobi dogs or other breeds riding around in patrol cars. 

I think that the terms PP and guard get confused. I see a guard dog as a dog who is untrained in bite work and reacts to perceived threats without any commands. I see a PP dog as a dog that will confront a perceived threat but shows restraint until given the command to take down the threat. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Lilie said:


> You might find this interesting:
> 
> "Dogs like the Kangal, German Shepherd dog, Doberman get better bite force results than dogs with broad thick heads.
> This is because in dogs with head shapes like the Wolf of spotted Hyena,the frontal bite force is more concentrated than in dogs with broad faces."


All the power comes from the molars


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lillie, did you purposefully or accidentally skip Carmen and hunters comments and then just decide to attack me?

I always pay attention to all the dogs training as I'm in the process of becoming a helper. I actually don't read anything about dobermans on the Internet so I have no idea what is said about them. I've seen plenty of Dobermen work, and two weeks ago at a trial I saw a very nice BH done by one. It was easily the best one that day by miles. I'm not saying good ones aren't out there, but the point is, you have 3 opinions of people that see protection work, and then opinions of people who just see barking dogs "protecting" territory.

We call people out that think their fearful dogs are "protective" all the time on this forum. How is that situation not any different? When someone tells me a dog "protects" my first reaction is usually that it's out of fear and not out of actual training.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

jafo220 said:


> I think that the terms PP and guard get confused. I see a guard dog as a dog who is untrained in bite work and reacts to perceived threats without any commands. I see a PP dog as a dog that will confront a perceived threat but shows restraint until given the command to take down the threat.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I agree 100%.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Lillie, did you purposefully or accidentally skip Carmen and hunters comments and then just decide to attack me?


Oh gosh, no. And sorry if you felt that it was an attack. Seriously, didn't mean for it to be. 

Carmen and Hunter have a lot more experiance than you do, I wouldn't skip their comments as I would try to skip those who have had less experiance in the field.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Oh gosh, no. And sorry if you felt that it was an attack. Seriously, didn't mean for it to be.
> 
> Carmen and Hunter have a lot more experiance than you do, I wouldn't skip their comments as I would try to skip those who have had less experiance in the field.


Don't oversell me! I'm not that experienced lol


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I think there's a reason you see GSD's and Mali's used primarily in military and law enforcement. I think they have the whole package. Speed, smarts, stamina, courage, intensity, trainability.

If you're looking for a PP dog for yourself, I think a GSD is an easier dog to own, if you've never owned a serious working dog before. Mali's are awesome dogs, but I think they can be quite tightly wound and don't have as good an off switch. I know they are too much dog for me.

I think Rotties and Dobes are excellent dogs, but I think you'll find, with people who train PP dogs professionally, that they will lean toward the GSD's and Mali's. A good Dobe or Rottie, will be better than a bad Mali or GSD, but with all things being equal, I think the GSD and Mali have all the right tools and then some. They simply excel at PP work IMO, and finding a good one is going to be much easier.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Are we discussing the best dogs for sport or for personal, home protection and guarding? 

My Doberman lacks the high drive to excel at IPO, he just loves agility and is a nut for that. He will bite and go into defense, but he is lazy about the IPO sport. He chased a meter man out of the yard who hopped the fence unannounced and didn't realize i was back there sunning by the pool. He will also advance, growl, and bark if necessary toward someone he perceives as a threat when it comes to me. He does not back down, cower, or get behind me. This is the natural defense of the breed. They are to be highly alert and watchful of their surroundings. Dobermans are not a bite and hold breed, they are slashers. Fast, fierce, bites and attacks. I've had many GSDs and Dobes over the years, foster and personal, and I've gotten the most reactions from the Dobes with the public. My WL bitch put many of the GSDs at club to shame with her intense drive and will.

Those interested in a euro working line and expecting a big, thick dog should do more research. The euro show lines are typically shown and bred at the max height of the standard, and then some..they are the ones people see that are thick, robust, and have little tuck up. Many euro working lines are around the same size or smaller than american show line dobes. My WL bitch was 24.5" and around 60 lbs. It is a stereotype that american dobes are frail and euro dobes are huge. Bigger is not better with this medium working breed and there are may well bred, good boned ASLs. Many times people mistake my dobe for a euro, but no, he is a well bred all american dobe.

There are usually good euro WL dobes available often in the states, you just have to know where to look. As dobes are my breed, I have friends all over with awesome working dobes. It's a lot easier to work a GSD or mal in the sport, they are what is most popular, more widely bred for the sport. This is a good read:
why dobermans are different

I personally don't care what one's opinion is one way or another about dobermans, people can buy and love what they want, just want to clear up some misinformation.


Anyone remember this gem? ;D the doberman gang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMupA9_wLcw


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Are we discussing the best dogs for sport or for personal, home protection and guarding?
> 
> My Doberman lacks the high drive to excel at IPO, he just loves agility and is a nut for that. He will bite and go into defense, but he is lazy about the IPO sport. He chased a meter man out of the yard who hopped the fence unannounced and didn't realize i was back there sunning by the pool. He will also advance, growl, and bark if necessary toward someone he perceives as a threat when it comes to me. He does not back down, cower, or get behind me. This is the natural defense of the breed. They are to be highly alert and watchful of their surroundings. Dobermans are not a bite and hold breed, they are slashers. Fast, fierce, bites and attacks. I've had many GSDs and Dobes over the years, foster and personal, and I've gotten the most reactions from the Dobes with the public. My WL bitch put many of the GSDs at club to shame with her intense drive and will.
> 
> ...


:wub: Prime :wub: 

You never post enough photos of him!!!! Thank goodness I can see him on the Doberman forum!


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> This is a good read:
> why dobermans are different


Great article from an EXCELLENT trainer. Thnak you for sharing


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

jafo220 said:


> I think he has made valid points in respect to the breed. GSD's were specifically brought to existence for working and are evaluated for such. Now yes you can try to use the same evaluation with other breeds, but if you have 10 dogs of each breed to evaluate, which breed do you think would have more dogs qualify or pass their evaluation? I'd put my money on the GSD every time. There is a reason you don't see Dobi dogs or other breeds riding around in patrol cars.
> 
> I think that the terms PP and guard get confused. I see a guard dog as a dog who is untrained in bite work and reacts to perceived threats without any commands. I see a PP dog as a dog that will confront a perceived threat but shows restraint until given the command to take down the threat.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I was one of those people who confused guarding and personal protection dogs just a few hours ago. If we shift focus from which breed has the highest "approval rating" to what dog can excel more than the GSD if you put more time into it. Would that change your answers? I would think that there is a breed that can be trained to the level of a PP GSD, but can fulfil the role better because of superior physical traits. Is this a logical way of looking at this?


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

LaRen616 said:


> :wub: Prime :wub:
> 
> You never post enough photos of him!!!! Thank goodness I can see him on the Doberman forum!


Just wait til he gets a sister soon


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Great article from an EXCELLENT trainer. Thnak you for sharing


Sure thing! I've witnessed countless times with trainers and helpers that if you even mention Doberman they automatically get into a negative mindset. I love GSDs, but there are many reasons that motivate me to work Dobermans in the sport right now. I know this is getting OT..


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Your question is very broad and hypothetical. It’s difficult to say that a “breed” can be trained better than a GSD. It’s all a numbers game…there are more GSDs in sport/PP/K9 work, therefore more will be successful at it. At the same time, since it’s the more used breed…you’ll also have more washouts. Do I think that a whole breed, overall, can be trained to be a better PP than a GSD? Probably not. But it’s not out of the question that a specimen of a breed can be better at PP than the best PP GSD.

If you read that article, it does a great job of explaining why. It’s like I mentioned…the lack of high natural prey drive in a dobe, prevents some of the behaviors that you might want out of a PP dog. But it also really depends on what you personally want out of a PP dog.

Really awesome article though, and the breakdown of the action is amazing. Really allows you to understand/compare what the dog does, and what the different breeds do and why they do them. Also gives a fairly good insight into why the dobes we see today, are not like the dobes of yesterday. I’ll admit, that reading that article…I can understand why a dobe would be a better “junkyard dog” than a GSD. A dog that is naturally more territorial and more independent. So, if that’s what I needed, and I didn’t have time to train…I can see how an untrained dobe would fit that role much better than an untrained GSD. But…if you’re talking PP (in the sense that I’m thinking about), you’re removing the territory the dog would guard and are making it more about guarding the pack, according to that article, a GSD or a herding type dog is much more successful at doing that.

Again, awesome article MustLove, and if you equate PP work to Schutzhund...its understandable why GSDs are more successful. Can't say its just because of lack of good helper work...its also naturally/genetically easier for a GSD because it is guarding its human, rather than a dobe, which is more naturally inclined to protect a territory.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes, thanks for posting the Soares articles . Some good thoughts in the Doberman article --- even better thoughts in Soares GSD plea german shepherd dog

adding --- when Miles the Swedish Dobe was worked it was in the prey drive as I stated previously. When he was worked by decoys that understood his nature , he was a totally different dog -- impressive , very impressive .

GSD on this forum are often compared to Malinois --- let each breed be appreciated for the very qualities which created them as a distinct and separate breed.

the sport SCH H was created for GSD . Does anyone remember the back and forth lively discussion when someone proudly presented a golden retriever who did Sch H . In reality he didn't , lots of accommodations , but the point is the GR should never have been there . To have those instincts and balances in character indicate a very faulty Golden Retriever .


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

Lilie said:


> You might find this interesting:
> 
> "Dogs like the Kangal, German Shepherd dog, Doberman get better bite force results than dogs with broad thick heads.
> This is because in dogs with head shapes like the Wolf of spotted Hyena,the frontal bite force is more concentrated than in dogs with broad faces."


What about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbwMs7cjK0Y


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Are we discussing the best dogs for sport or for personal, home protection and guarding?


My intention was to inquire specifically about personal protection dogs (Which I had previously confused with guard dogs.)


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

martemchik said:


> Your question is very broad and hypothetical. It’s difficult to say that a “breed” can be trained better than a GSD. It’s all a numbers game…there are more GSDs in sport/PP/K9 work, therefore more will be successful at it. At the same time, since it’s the more used breed…you’ll also have more washouts. Do I think that a whole breed, overall, can be trained to be a better PP than a GSD? Probably not. But it’s not out of the question that a specimen of a breed can be better at PP than the best PP GSD.
> 
> If you read that article, it does a great job of explaining why. It’s like I mentioned…the lack of high natural prey drive in a dobe, prevents some of the behaviors that you might want out of a PP dog. But it also really depends on what you personally want out of a PP dog.
> 
> ...



They are generally useless as junkyard dogs and are most effective next to their owner, as they were bred to be personal protection dogs. They do not have the double coat or temperament for outdoor, solitary living. They were not bred to guard property or other animals. Many find their way in rescue because people pitch them in a backyard and they do poorly. All they care about is their human and being wherever they are, they are an insanely velcro dog. 

Temperament | Doberman Pinscher Club of America

and this is how the standard has changed from the 1900's, pretty interesting
Evolution of the Standard: Temperament - DPCA Breeder/Exhibitor Education

This clip from a movie sums up their devotion, it is a tear jerker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxxPCAONXy4


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Did I misunderstand the article then? The guy clearly talks about mastiff type and hunting dogs as being more independent...

I mean, its fine if that's your experience, not going to argue it, but then the article is quite confusing or just off-base about what today's dobes are like.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Did I misunderstand the article then? The guy clearly talks about mastiff type and hunting dogs as being more independent...
> 
> I mean, its fine if that's your experience, not going to argue it, but then the article is quite confusing or just off-base about what today's dobes are like.


That's also what I took away from the article. Mastiff and Terrier being dogs that worked independently of humans. 

A Doberman wouldn't make a good outdoor dog in Canada because the cold temps. During the really cold winter days, not even the GSD wants to go outside. His feet freeze really quick when it's -30 degrees Celsius.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I've never though of LGD's being independent thinkers. I always though that if it was breed to kill a wolf, it'd be even better and defending against people.


 Animal aggression and human aggression are different. Some LGDs are great at guarding against four-legged marauders, but welcome two-legged guests. I had an Akbash dog who was like this. He would bark at any intruder no matter how many legs, but once properly introduced, he was really a suck-up. He loved people. Of course, his size was intimidating enough to make most people think twice about coming in the gate, but I doubt he would have made an effective "guard" against human predators.



Nigel said:


> For "alerting" purposes, geese make great guards, not much slips past them, lol


 Seriously. Most people are more afraid of my geese than they are of my dogs.



CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I would think that there is a breed that can be trained to the level of a PP GSD, but can fulfil the role better because of superior physical traits. Is this a logical way of looking at this?


 "Superior physical traits".... superior to what? What are you trying to take down, a human, an elephant, or a gazelle? 

When a dog means business, pretty much any size dog can and will win a fight with a human. Of course, if the human has a gun, knife or other weapon, all bets are off. It doesn't matter if the dog weighs 40 lb. or 140 lb if the human is armed. So "superior" physical traits can only go so far.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

Freestep said:


> "Superior physical traits".... superior to what? What are you trying to take down, a human, an elephant, or a gazelle?
> 
> When a dog means business, pretty much any size dog can and will win a fight with a human. Of course, if the human has a gun, knife or other weapon, all bets are off. It doesn't matter if the dog weighs 40 lb. or 140 lb if the human is armed. So "superior" physical traits can only go so far.


That was just me pointing towards the Rottie again. In terms of defending against a person, they seem superior because they are larger, wider and shorter jawed, and the style of their bite seems like it would do more damage. IMO they are also much more intimidating that GSDs. So in my mind, if you trained a Rottie to the level of a PP GSD, it would be able to do a better job.

I never considered Dobermans to be as intimidating as they look. They look very daunting, but that's just a look. 
If anything I considered Dobermans to be more beautiful than intimidating. 
Rotties on the other hand seem like much more of a deterrent.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

The article addresses the training roadblocks in a dog sport and breaks down the influence different breed types posses to better understand why many herding dog people for example cannot often achieve the same reactions by approaching training the same with a Doberman. It is not about Doberman ownership and the relationship with the handler. It is about how they perceive, interact, and handle others. They are not supposed to be a social breed and easily engaged with humans outside of their family, just tolerant.

"We know that our sport is based on this instinctive ability to socialize through prey. Helmut Raiser’s book bases itself on this quality of the herding dog. Raiser, and other great trainers, believed that pronounced prey is the extension to pronounced fight drive. *The herding dog’s resilience to the intrusion of its space, as well as to space of another, is due to its instinctive socialization capabilities stemming from prey. Although the terrier also possesses these same qualities, it does not do so with the intention of gathering or maintaining order in a herd. The terrier’s goal is to eliminate! It does not possess the same consideration to prey as is seen in the herding dog.* The herding dog was to bite, contain or control with no impulses of killing/dissecting. Full mouth biting in the herding dog was desired. Full mouth biting comes from strong independent prey! *The difference regarding the terrier and herding groups, when it comes to prey, is that the terrier was to finish the stalk, chase, pounce, bite responses with aggressive tendencies to kill and, at times, dissect. The herding breeds were to stalk, chase, pounce and bite without the killing/dissecting responses.*

When we think of our Doberman, full mouth biting was never a consideration when originally bred. *Our earlier Dobermans had strong terrier tendencies. Remember, terriers were needed to rid areas of vermin. Killing was an important aspect of this purpose. In order to accomplish this, the terrier was to possess strong prey drive that was aggression based. Our earlier Dobermans possessed these qualities*. Ironically, the terriers’ tenacity to prey is what provides pit bull terriers with the reputation they have today. Dobermans had that same quality not so long ago. Strong terrier-type drives are what made the Doberman, at that time, in wrong or incapable hands, a liability.

With changes due to breeding, we have gone from terrier to more mastiff- and hunting-type mentalities in our Dobermans. This change has brought about advantages as well as disadvantages. *One advantage of going away from the terrier-based bloodlines has been a nervous system better adapted to human interaction. The reactivity level to stimuli was decreased providing an increased social ability toward human influence. **The main disadvantages of increasing mastiff and hunting responses in the breed has been an increase in sensitivity to space/distance of another and a diminished ability to “pounce” and socialize through prey*. Fortunately, we are still able to find enough terrier-type responses that, when properly channeled, can make Dobermans successful in our sport."


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> That was just me pointing towards the Rottie again. In terms of defending against a person, they seem superior because they are larger, wider and shorter jawed, and the style of their bite seems like it would do more damage. IMO they are also much more intimidating that GSDs. So in my mind, if you trained a Rottie to the level of a PP GSD, it would be able to do a better job.


 How much "better" do you need? You don't want the dog to kill the suspect, you just want him to stop the suspect. Ideally, you want the least amount of force needed to do the job. A 40 lb. Malinois can stop a person as effectively as a 140 lb. Rott. To me, wanting to do as much damage as possible is overkill.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

Freestep said:


> How much "better" do you need? You don't want the dog to kill the suspect, you just want him to stop the suspect. Ideally, you want the least amount of force needed to do the job. A 40 lb. Malinois can stop a person as effectively as a 140 lb. Rott. To me, wanting to do as much damage as possible is overkill.


It's not about doing the most damage, but seeing what dog would be the most capable when it comes to defending against a person. I'm not thinking about it in terms of police work, just personal protection. 

Most people say that if Rotties were better than GSDs at PP or as MWD/Police dogs then you would see more Rotties fulfilling those roles, but I think that may be due to the fact that you can train a GSD faster than you can a Rottie. So if you took the time to train your 1 PP dog, as apposed to cranking out 50, I would think that your choices of dog breed would change.

If I was asking about what dog could do the most damage, I would be asking about the Bully Kutta and Caucasian Shepherd. I'm not into the whole unmanageable beast living in my home.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I was one of those people who confused guarding and personal protection dogs just a few hours ago. If we shift focus from which breed has the highest "approval rating" to what dog can excel more than the GSD if you put more time into it. Would that change your answers? I would think that there is a breed that can be trained to the level of a PP GSD, but can fulfil the role better because of superior physical traits. Is this a logical way of looking at this?


You should try researching those breeds who are higher approved for their respective duty and find out why those breeds were designed with particular assets in mind. All dogs can bite. But do you want a strong biting dog that can't be shaken? Or do you want a dog with less drive that after a few punches to the side and head, releases? As has been mentioned before, certain dogs were designed for particular assets for jobs other dogs cannot handle either physically or mentally. 

The only other breed that can top a GSD is a Mali and that's in a physical and mental aspect. That topic has been discussed around here before and that's where that remark comes from.

Lastly, the only plausible reason to take more time to train a different breed that doesn't have the drives and physical ability is if the owner just has to have that other breed not saying it would work anyways. Basically, if your going to race the Indy500, would you rather race it in a proven design built for that reason? Or race it in a Yugo?

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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

jafo220 said:


> You should try researching those breeds who are higher approved for their respective duty and find out why those breeds were designed with particular assets in mind. All dogs can bite. But do you want a strong biting dog that can't be shaken? Or do you want a dog with less drive that after a few punches to the side and head, releases? As has been mentioned before, certain dogs were designed for particular assets for jobs other dogs cannot handle either physically or mentally.
> 
> The only other breed that can top a GSD is a Mali and that's in a physical and mental aspect. That topic has been discussed around here before and that's where that remark comes from.
> 
> ...


It's difficult to find info on some of those points. I understand what you're saying and it brings up things that I've never considered before. That's the beauty of this forum. Everyone has something valuable to add to the convo. 

Could you explain how a Mali could out preform a GSD physically? I would think that it would be the other way around since Malis are smaller.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how about 


Tibetan Mastiff -- seriously , what kind of protection do you need?


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

I've had rott"dob" Shep"am.bulldog" all were p.p.d.
You can teach the dob to bite full month and hang on" the rott is a big strong fighter" the Shep is just great my favorite. The am bulldog will manhandle the bad guy" the rott doesn't come close as far as power! 

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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

bill said:


> I've had rott"dob" Shep"am.bulldog" all were p.p.d.
> You can teach the dob to bite full month and hang on" the rott is a big strong fighter" the Shep is just great my favorite. The am bulldog will manhandle the bad guy" the rott doesn't come close as far as power!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The rott doesn't come close in power compared to the am bulldog?


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> how about
> 
> 
> Tibetan Mastiff -- seriously , what kind of protection do you need?


I don't need any thankfully.  I'm just curious about the topic.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm trying to find an article reporting on a situation where a trained personal protection dog actually protected someone from a human threat out in public. Where the dog had to engage in hand-to-mouth combat for an extended period, or "keep in the fight". I get the feeling this scenario is incredibly rare. 

A much more common scenario is, bad guy up to no good is looking for a victim. Bad guy sees a person running with a GSD and a malinois, dogs are well trained and attentive. Bad guy looks for another victim. Most attacks (rapes or muggings) are crimes of opportunity. If a bad guy is really targeting you, he would be able to formulate a plan to neutralize the dog, any size dog. Or snag you when the dog is not around. 

It would be cool if the President travelled with a cadre of malinois, but he doesn't. The SS uses malinois in various application, but people with guns protect the President, not huge dogs. Celebrities who went the PP dog route have generally failed miserably... dogs are not things, and need constant training and a dog-savvy owner if they are to function as socially stable PPDs. 

There are malinois and GSD capable of being very competent PPDs that you can buy in the United States. For malinois they are generally out of ring/KNPV lines, not pure IPO, and can be large dogs (85 lb male) with a civil edge and very hard. These dogs can make terrific PPDs, real "stay in the fight" type dogs. But only for a dedicated trainer. Most companies selling PPDs to families are not actually selling them dogs that will stay in the fight or have a real degree of hardness. The dogs do the job for the family, because they are socially stable, softer dogs, that aren't super sharp, and look impressive with highly rehearsed "abduction" scenarios that mainly work the dog in prey. It's a nice way to make a cool $15,000 of a decent sport dog.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Bulldog is a ball of muscle" super strong" powerful bite will about jerk your arm out of socket playing tug" I'm talking about Johnson line am. Bulldog

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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

You can tie out many a dog and have a "bad guy" approach in a ritualized way and get bitten and say the dog is a terrific PPD. How about having that dog off leash along a busy downtown sidewalk, or hanging out at your kid's soccer game. Threat discernment and control are #1, along with a good nerve base in the dog to start with. 
I have no use for a dog that will bite any one who looks at him cross-eyed.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

bill said:


> Bulldog is a ball of muscle" super strong" powerful bite will about jerk your arm out of socket playing tug" I'm talking about Johnson line am. Bulldog
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've only seen small bulldogs. I've never know much about the breed.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Plus the bulldog is very easy too train" lovable" good guard" the bad heat problems short face " massive size.

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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I'm trying to find an article reporting on a situation where a trained personal protection dog actually protected someone from a human threat out in public. Where the dog had to engage in hand-to-mouth combat for an extended period, or "keep in the fight". I get the feeling this scenario is incredibly rare.
> 
> A much more common scenario is, bad guy up to no good is looking for a victim. Bad guy sees a person running with a GSD and a malinois, dogs are well trained and attentive. Bad guy looks for another victim. Most attacks (rapes or muggings) are crimes of opportunity. If a bad guy is really targeting you, he would be able to formulate a plan to neutralize the dog, any size dog. Or snag you when the dog is not around.
> 
> ...


But most people don't have the resources to hire armed guards. The dog is much more practical and cost effective.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

A dog that bites because someone looked at it Cross-eyed is not a p.p.d
It is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Bill

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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I can also say that a GSD would get to a threat much quicker, therefore eliminating the possibility of escape. I’m sure there is a certain distance where a person would be able to outrun a Rottie and get to fence and that is much shorter for a GSD. Also, agility and acceleration are much more important than the end force at the time of impact. And since force = mass x acceleration, it’s not very hard to make the assumption that a GSD can actually hit with a higher force than a Rottie.

It’s also completely pointless to argue about what bite is harder, or what jaws are more effective, because trust me, no matter which animal bites you, you’re staying right there with a broken bone. IMO, I would imagine a longer snout would cause a harder bite (especially with the canines at the end) since simple physics says that the farther out something is, the faster it will move and again hit with more force. Just think of an alligator…the jaws close near the joint, which causes the ends of the mouth to move very very fast because they have to travel a longer distance in the same amount of time. It’s also the same theory behind a golf swing (my other hobby), the longer you wait to release the wrists, the faster the club head will be moving because for every inch the wrists release…the club head has to move a few feet in the same amount of time.

Agility and speed are much more important IMO than brute force when it comes to protection. Especially if you imagine a person coming at you with a gun, where the speed a dog can get to the person is what’s going to eliminate the threat, not the force with which it will bite them. This is how a Mali outperforms a GSD. In the same way that a 200lbs football player is more physically gifted and can probably outperform a 300lbs football player...size isn't everything.

Also...shorter snouted dogs, like a Rott or an Am. Bulldog, can't work in extreme temperatures. Just this weekend I witnessed an "irondog" competitor Am. Bulldog, almost pass out after giving two bites in high 60s low 70s...the dog wasn't used to the temperature as we didn't have much of a spring this year. But I can't imagine one of them working in the 90s with high humidity.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> It's difficult to find info on some of those points. I understand what you're saying and it brings up things that I've never considered before. That's the beauty of this forum. Everyone has something valuable to add to the convo.
> 
> Could you explain how a Mali could out preform a GSD physically? I would think that it would be the other way around since Malis are smaller.


What I mean by "physical" is the health aspect. A lot of the health problems in GSD's due to bad breeding is not as big a factor in Mals. Genetic problems like cancer and HD. 

Mals may be smaller, but all you have to do is take a look at some on youtube and you'll see. A lot of fight in a small package. 

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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

People forget your dog is your buddy" if someone kicks in my door" sneaks in my house" he gives me time to get my gun" keeps someone from getting the drop on me" he could save my life" I will sure try to save his" he is doing his job" my a jack Russell that would attack" can give you the edge" but in that situation I want something that can hold his own till dad can help.j.m.o. Bill

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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I can also say that a GSD would get to a threat much quicker, therefore eliminating the possibility of escape. I’m sure there is a certain distance where a person would be able to outrun a Rottie and get to fence and that is much shorter for a GSD. Also, agility and acceleration are much more important than the end force at the time of impact. And since force = mass x acceleration, it’s not very hard to make the assumption that a GSD can actually hit with a higher force than a Rottie.
> 
> It’s also completely pointless to argue about what bite is harder, or what jaws are more effective, because trust me, no matter which animal bites you, you’re staying right there with a broken bone. IMO, I would imagine a longer snout would cause a harder bite (especially with the canines at the end) since simple physics says that the farther out something is, the faster it will move and again hit with more force. Just think of an alligator…the jaws close near the joint, which causes the ends of the mouth to move very very fast because they have to travel a longer distance in the same amount of time. It’s also the same theory behind a golf swing (my other hobby), the longer you wait to release the wrists, the faster the club head will be moving because for every inch the wrists release…the club head has to move a few feet in the same amount of time.
> 
> Agility and speed are much more important IMO than brute force when it comes to protection. Especially if you imagine a person coming at you with a gun, where the speed a dog can get to the person is what’s going to eliminate the threat, not the force with which it will bite them. This is how a Mali outperforms a GSD. In the same way that a 200lbs football player is more physically gifted and can probably outperform a 300lbs football player...size isn't everything.


I was thinking more about leverage. The shorter muzzle meant that it had to bite closer to its molars, meaning that more force would be exerted. 
I also though that the initial impact would play less of a role than what happens in the time after the initial contact. 

I think size is a good thing, but to much size can he a hindrance. That's one of the reason that I prefer the Rotti to the Mastiff. 

I guess what it comes down to is the best combination of desirable traits. It seems rather obvious when it's stated that way.

But to try to get a definitive answer: What is that optimal blend of desirable traits?


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

As far as bite force" there is a reason you want a full bite" think of a players" towards the back more power" front bite canines tear and rip.

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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Plyers

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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Is the back the hinge or the part where you would actually grasp a nut?

Cause...the most force is definitely at the tip of the mouth/where the canines are. The full bite is to prevent the sleeve or a person from slipping away. Force/power is definitely biggest at the far end.

The teeth come together at the same time no matter where they are in the mouth…which means that the part farthest from the apex of the jaw, moves much quicker than the part closest to the apex. Since the acceleration there is faster, you’ll end up with more force there.

It’s like spinning a ball on a string around you in a circle. The ball at the end of the string, is spinning at a faster rate than you would be spinning at the other end of the string.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Put your finger in some plyers the front then the back squeeze" not hard to see!

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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

bill said:


> Put your finger in some plyers the front then the back squeeze" not hard to see!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You're talking about a gradual squeeze though...not a bite. A bite is a one time, closing of the jaws as fast as possible...therefore the force is greatest at the front.

Imagine putting a stick at the back of a bite...a dog is highly unlikely to break through that stick. Yet, if you place it at the front of the mouth, and the dog quickly shuts its jaws, the stick is much more likely to break.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

When a dog breaks a bone he is chewing" he has it in the back of his mouth not the front

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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

I'm talking about the most power is in the back" when the dog bites he hangs on the power is still there in the back" 

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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Haven't read any of the comments in this thread, but I have never seen a guard dog like the ones on the Acores islands... Cao de fila de Sao Miguel. I have never been afraid of dogs, but this breed (the ones native to the islands) scares me. 

The ones I have seen / experienced would kill anything that came on their property except the family.

I spoke with a breeder in Sao Miguel a few years back while I was visiting, his stud male [a big black/brown brindle dog] stared at me through the gate the entire time with that unnerving silence and intensity. He told me the dogs don't live in homes, and the puppies show enough aggression that he doesn't let his daughters see them. He could pet his male, interact with him, command him without any issues but the dog was not okay with anyone else. He also said the dog won't let anyone on the property, especially near his cows. 

If I ever needed true property protection in a crisis world situation or something, I'd probably get a pair of these dogs imported straight from the islands - they are fierce!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Your examples are about constant force/pressure not the moment of force. The single moment when a bite snaps together...the force at the end is much higher than the force at the pivot.

I'm actually using force wrong here...as its technically torque that we're talking about. The equation for torque is Torque = Force x Distance away from pivot. The pivot in a mouth is where the jaws come together. In the case of a bite, the force applied is equal, and therefore you can easily deduct that the torque FARTHEST away from the pivot is greater than the torque near the pivot.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Oh, I also should add to my above post - he said training his Azores cattle dogs are easy and they listen to him buot he only keeps pairs together - one male, one female, and sometimes the females beat the males up. He said he had a now deceased male dog attack a homeless man that tried to steal from his fields. So, I imagine his bloodlines have no issue biting for real. 

When I spoke with this breeder, the Azores islands hadn't even begun pasteurizing their milk yet - they do now - but it is amazing to see a native breed in a world that seems so different and distant from North America. 

He told me, by the end, that his dogs were "the best guard dogs" on the islands and he often gave puppies in exchange for other livestock between him and other farmers. Very interesting stuff!

Edit: Should probably mention I met one dog of the same breed on the same island that was really happy/friendly.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> But to try to get a definitive answer: What is that optimal blend of desirable traits?


You're never going to get a definitive answer to that question.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

Wild Wolf said:


> Oh, I also should add to my above post - he said training his Azores cattle dogs are easy and they listen to him buot he only keeps pairs together - one male, one female, and sometimes the females beat the males up. He said he had a now deceased male dog attack a homeless man that tried to steal from his fields. So, I imagine his bloodlines have no issue biting for real.
> 
> When I spoke with this breeder, the Azores islands hadn't even begun pasteurizing their milk yet - they do now - but it is amazing to see a native breed in a world that seems so different and distant from North America.
> 
> ...


I've never heard of that dog breed. They have strange looking ears. Almost like small hyena ears, or mink ears.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

Merciel said:


> You're never going to get a definitive answer to that question.


Could I at least get a tally of everyone's answers/opinions?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Had to see what the Cao de fila de Sao Miguel were like . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QR_oXwbmDw

looks pretty ordinary.

I believe the ears are trimmed that way


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Had to see what the Cao de fila de Sao Miguel were like . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QR_oXwbmDw
> 
> looks pretty ordinary.
> 
> I believe the ears are trimmed that way


That would make sense. They almost look natural.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

hunterisgreat said:


> Also depends on what we are guarding. A thing? A herd? A junkyard? The front porch? Different breeds excel at different tasks.


i was referring to some dobes guarding the inside of a arehouse in newark nj. they were very good at patroling and defending. but that was 10 or 12 years ago.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> Could I at least get a tally of everyone's answers/opinions?


Oh sure.

Here's mine: the best guard dog breed is the one that you like and want to live with (because a personal guard dog is not much use if the dog is so impossible to live with that you keep it outside or kenneled all day), that has the traits you find suitable to your purposes (whether that be patrolling a junkyard, protecting a flock, or accompanying you personally in urban/suburban environments), and which has a decent working population such that it is reasonably possible to find a good dog within your means.

Unsurprisingly, given that this is a GSD forum and I'm posting on it, my pick would be a good working-line GSD. My second choice would be a moderately coated Terv or Mal from a working breeder who values good house dogs (i.e., dogs I could actually live with).

I've seen good working Rotties but I have never personally laid eyes on a good working Dobe (which is to say, one that would be strong in protection work. I have seen Dobes who do quite well in non-bitey performance sports). I've heard that they're out there, but people I trust tell me that they're rare as hen's teeth, and I've never seen one myself.

I like doing obedience-y sports, so I've got no interest in the LGD or junkyard dog types.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> I'm trying to find an article reporting on a situation where a trained personal protection dog actually protected someone from a human threat out in public. Where the dog had to engage in hand-to-mouth combat for an extended period, or "keep in the fight". I get the feeling this scenario is incredibly rare.
> 
> A much more common scenario is, bad guy up to no good is looking for a victim. Bad guy sees a person running with a GSD and a malinois, dogs are well trained and attentive. Bad guy looks for another victim. Most attacks (rapes or muggings) are crimes of opportunity. If a bad guy is really targeting you, he would be able to formulate a plan to neutralize the dog, any size dog. Or snag you when the dog is not around.
> 
> ...


Most ppd companies are out to rip people off. There are socially stable family malinois type dogs out there that when activated turn into meat seeking missiles that fight and bite like monsters. As for staying in the fight, I'm not so sure they will need to as it will end really fast.

The ones you really need to worry about aren't the edgy sharp ones. The ones that will press a fight are confident and social.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

carmspack said:


> Had to see what the Cao de fila de Sao Miguel were like . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QR_oXwbmDw
> 
> looks pretty ordinary.
> 
> I believe the ears are trimmed that way


Very different from the one breeder I met, and very different from many of the dogs you saw guarding the livestock as you drove around the island. I have definitely met some like the ones in that video, I met one in Canada too. This one breeder's dogs were pretty unsettling!


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

For guard dogs, I'd go with a Rottweiler. For PPD, if I had good reason to have one, Probably a Malinois. If I wanted a dog that is capable of both, GSD.

Reasons for my picks. 

Rottweiler's are just plain intimidating. Once it's known they are around, very few will enter just on the perception and looks of the dog. They look like pure evil. At least to me. I have owned a Rott. He was as gentle of a dog as a 125 pounder could be. Very protective of not only his yard but the area. Very confident, well mannered dog. Protective in the sense of strangers, but we never really had to worry about that because of the intimidation factor he exuded. The yard was chain linked and it was avoided by all but the local weeny dog who was nuts anyways. He could scale the 4 foot fence easily as he once showed us and speed was not a factor as he could cover ground faster than most normal humans. No one messed with that property the time he was there, and it's in a sketchy area. Times them by two, and it offers formidable security. Dobermans would probably fit the same bill, but I've never owned one but have been around a few. 

Malinois. What can you say. Oh, what Ballif said. Just a guided missile looking for meat. There is no way I want to be on the business end of a Mali. Smart, good health, fast and mean as **** when the fuse is lit. 

GSD. Noble breed that can do anything, it all depends on you and what type of training you want to do. PPD? Yep. Guard dog with basic obedience, sure. Intimidating? To those who don't understand them. But it depends on you.

Am I recommending? No. It's for you to decide and form your own opinions. The above is just my opinion if I were to decide tomorrow to need one of the above. I have a GSD now but I doubt he would be any of the above as that's not why we got him and he's nothing but a big love bug. He'd probably invite the robber in and fetch him a drink.:wild:


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Caucasian Ovcharka bar none Min height f 25 in m 27 in Min weight f 96 lbs m 110 lbs These are considered small 
The best dog produced by Red Star Kennel This kennel is responsible for some of the finest dogs of this topic in the world
No man nor beast will stand against them It is like when L T hit Theisman All day every day You will wish you met your maker after this dog hits you with a full bite suit on With out it you are dead or good as dead Even if you shoot it unless you have a big magnum
If you know little of this dog check them out See what red star kennel did with this breed


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

canyadoit said:


> Caucasian Ovcharka bar none Min height f 25 in m 27 in Min weight f 96 lbs m 110 lbs These are considered small
> The best dog produced by Red Star Kennel This kennel is responsible for some of the finest dogs of this topic in the world
> No man nor beast will stand against them It is like when L T hit Theisman All day every day You will wish you met your maker after this dog hits you with a full bite suit on With out it you are dead or good as dead Even if you shoot it unless you have a big magnum
> If you know little of this dog check them out See what red star kennel did with this breed


I guess no unarmed average man or animal under 40 pounds that is non venomous/poisonous couldn't put up much of a fight. I've seen a little bit about this dog and I'm not a fan. It seems like an unruly ill-bred animal to me. 

I also doubt that it can shrug off bullets, no matter what the caliber is.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Sure and red star produced junk lol It was bred for one purpose only Fits this topic Read a bit of what the red army / special forces /prisons/kgb/nvk etc did with this dog Read of the punishment these dogs took on the feild of battle and did there mission
But this is my opinion as yours is yours 
But under forty pounds you are funny


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

canyadoit said:


> Sure and red star produced junk lol It was bred for one purpose only Fits this topic Read a bit of what the red army / special forces /prisons/kgb/nvk etc did with this dog Read of the punishment these dogs took on the feild of battle and did there mission
> But this is my opinion as yours is yours
> But under forty pounds you are funny


There are some 40 pound birds that can take down animals much larger than they are. In terms of non venomous/poisonous animals, I think that Birds have the largest advantage by far, in terms of pound for pound.

That said, I'm sure these dogs can do a lot of damage, but they always had that "wild mutt" look imo. However, I do think that these dogs are oversold.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Did I misunderstand the article then? The guy clearly talks about mastiff type and hunting dogs as being more independent...
> 
> I mean, its fine if that's your experience, not going to argue it, but then the article is quite confusing or just off-base about what today's dobes are like.


Dobermans are definitely velcro dogs. They are glued to their owners and need to be everywhere they are and that goes for all 6 of the Dobermans I have known in my life. The 2 that I occasionally dogsit are even glued to me while they stay with me and they both will whine if I put them outside without me or if I go into another room and they can't follow. They also have to lay on me when I am sitting down.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Didn't read all the posts, but a lot depends on the individual dog.

My parents had Dobies and though they looked scary to most folks, they were pussycats. Had an English Mastiff that was very sweet, but if a delivery person or stranger ran, he would overtake, knock them down and stand drooling over them. Closer to giving them a heart attack than a bite.

My two GSDs scare most people.

No dog is a match for a human with a gun though.

I look for my dogs to make folk think twice.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I've only seen small bulldogs. I've never know much about the breed.


 Nope not an "English" Bulldog:
American Bulldog Types and Blood Lines


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I guess no unarmed average man or animal under 40 pounds that is non venomous/poisonous couldn't put up much of a fight. I've seen a little bit about this dog and I'm not a fan. It seems like an unruly ill-bred animal to me.
> 
> I also doubt that it can shrug off bullets, no matter what the caliber is.


Because it's not a Doberman. Dobes shoot back ;D


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

carmspack said:


> how about
> 
> 
> Tibetan Mastiff -- seriously , what kind of protection do you need?


 
Our neighbors have two Tibetans. I was over and the male who came out to where his pups were acted a little stand offish and was doing the low growl. I backed off. If I'd seen him looking like that he wouldnt have to bite me Id just have a heart attack. 
The male is fantastic w/ their son who has a developmental disability and when they camp keeps an eye on him and follows the child everywhere. 

BTW Love the red Dobie w/ the gun in his mouth.


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Because it's not a Doberman. Dobes shoot back ;D


Cute picture, but is their chest supposed to stick out that much?


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## SoCal Rebell (Jun 3, 2009)

Sorry have to go with a SchH, trained GSD mine saved my a$$ one day. My front yard is gated so the whole neighborhood knows to keep back. My wife was picking avocados in the front yard when a drunken neighbor insulted her, dog was in the house. Guy was bigger and younger then me and he called me out, we threw a couple of punches my 105 lb. GSD came running out an unbeknownst to me I left the front gate open Cutter ran out and put an end to it quick classic forearm take down.


.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I remember that story -- I think every one said not to be such a hot head --


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> Cute picture, but is their chest supposed to stick out that much?


That's an entirely different discussion


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

zyppi said:


> My two GSDs scare most people.
> 
> No dog is a match for a human with a gun though.
> 
> I look for my dogs to make folk think twice.


Totally agree. My dogs are great alarm systems. My GSD can peer through his chain link back yard or my living room window, and strangers remain in their vehicle. Everything else is up to my husband and/or I.

Geese just aren't as cuddly and their poop is too nasty.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

geese were actually used in Roman encampments as first alarm defense


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

carmspack said:


> geese were actually used in Roman encampments as first alarm defense


because they were the dual purpose servants: sentry and food...


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> geese were actually used in Roman encampments as first alarm defense


Our guinea fowl aren't too shabby at it either


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Well if its birds" no way I'm going near a ostrich! Lol Bill

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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

bill said:


> Well if its birds" no way I'm going near a ostrich! Lol Bill
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Emus are not particularly friendly either!


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

They both remind me of a veloco raptor Chip" those claws could gut you!

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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

pp emu, i like it!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'd prefer a cassowary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOPVVdg8noc


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> I'd prefer a cassowary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOPVVdg8noc


Ummm......yeah.....you don't wanna mess with a cassowary.....they will kill you pretty quick. We just have all the cuddly creatures over here don't we?


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Geese are little sweet hearts! :wub:

People should watch this before coming to Australia.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Geese just aren't as cuddly and their poop is too nasty.


 MY geese are cuddly.  









Depending on what you feed them, the poop isn't always nasty. Goose poops are big and wet and they plop everywhere, but if they've been eating grass, the poop is just composted grass and it doesn't smell too bad. When it dries it just looks like chopped grass.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I remember my first encounter with a Dobbie, I was a kid running across a field and heard shouting, the owner had no control of his Dobbie and the dog was coming at me!

I turned to face the dog he closed in, stopped and I remember him spreading out his front legs as he croched! I was looking right at him and then the dog just flat disappeared!!??

Next thing I knew I was "nipped" in the back of the thigh!! Guy said sorry, I said no problem and went on my way and thought "cool dog!"

So yeah they have speed to spare! Not my style of dog these days.

But seriously yes a Mal is faster than Rot/ Bullyy breed but for PP (assuming well trained dog) inside of 15 feet. Rottie/Bully Breeds would do just fine! 

Unless of course you need protection from marathon runners and are in need of high speed "preemptive" protection?? GSD or Mal are been there done that dogs numbers don't lie!

Or if you want to get a Rottie go for it or up the bet and go for a Bandogge. Pretty sure you can find a Rottie/Cane Corso/American Bull Dog/Dogo Argentino mix being breed by somebody? 

Not a slam I was a bully guy first before I got here. Bull Mastiff/APBT/Lab mix aka Bandogge was my first dog then Boxers and Boxer/Pitt mixes.

Plan on adding a Boxer/American Bulldog as a third dog. Although as I have learned on here the Johnson American Bull Dog looks like a massive stocky Boxer?? So I'm still processing that myself.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Yoshi said:


> Geese are little sweet hearts! :wub:
> 
> People should watch this before coming to Australia.
> 
> Deadly Animals (Come to Australia) - YouTube


Forget the Kangaroos! I saw something about some type of creepy poisons Black fang spider that likes to hang out in swimming pools!? 

The thing was big to as I recall!


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

That would be the funnel web spider.......if you live in Sydney it is advised that you check your pool before jumping in........and they call this "the lucky country"


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

sparra said:


> That would be the funnel web spider.......if you live in Sydney it is advised that you check your pool before jumping in........and they call this "the lucky country"


I just goggled that gem of a spider. The picture made my teeth clinch
No no & no. LOL


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Courtney said:


> I just goggled that gem of a spider. The picture made my teeth clinch
> No no & no. LOL


Well I'll wait till later in the day to look! All we have our "Brown Recluse and Black Widows.

But that thing, that's a Spider! Sure hope some moron doesn't smuggle one into Fla or Southern Ca!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol Doberman???!!! 

I have seen quite a few of them come through here and do bitework and also did patrol work with them. 
If the ears and tail are done they look intimidating which is your only hope. If push ever comes to shove 99.999% are going to leave you high and dry.

They are quite the ladies favorite around here. There is a reason the military scrapped using them after trying them in WWII. This was back in the day when they were how they "used" to be.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I have seen a couple of Am bulls being worked at the club. The hog dogs are very drivey and would probably do the PP job if you selected carefully. The one oversize Johnson I saw was crap.
As for the ovcharaka and other similar dogs, watching the bitework vids on youtube most of them are too defensive and can be run. So no most of those would probably not work.

I would say different lines of GSD or Mal would serve those purposes quite nicely.

A GSD with medium/low thresholds for defence/prey and a decent nervebase would be what I would look for.

Some of the Van Lueewen Dutchies would also fit the bill. Though too much dog for most people.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Yea most of the am.bulldogs are crap" to many trying to breed the Johnson line" the Scott line is mainly a hunter smaller" longer nose " more stubborn" the Johnson line most think 150# is good" lol you can find a good one between 100 to120 " super strong" want too please" quick for size" no endurance" subject to heat stroke" good guard the home dog! Bill

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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

bill said:


> Yea most of the am.bulldogs are crap" to many trying to breed the Johnson line" the Scott line is mainly a hunter smaller" longer nose " more stubborn" t theiJohnson line most think 150# is good" lol you can find a good one between 100 to120 " super strong" want too please" quick for size" no endurance" subject to heat stroke" good guard the home dog! Bill
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah but they are cute, Boxer guy here!:wub:

Bottom Line is go with what works! A Dobie with natural ears and tail, just doesn't cut it in the don't even think about it category!


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

carmspack said:


> geese were actually used in Roman encampments as first alarm defense


Years ago I used to train with a renowned dressage trainer who more often than not had millions of dollars worth of horseflesh in his barns at any one time. He entrusted guarding those horses to a large flock of geese. Never had a moment's worry. I know when a friend and I trailered horses down for lessons once a week, we would always check to see where the geese were before we got out of the car!

Susan


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Donkeys are good too. Never getting on a property without a donkey going off!!!


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## CharlieB.Barkin (Apr 21, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Plan on adding a Boxer/American Bulldog as a third dog. Although as I have learned on here the Johnson American Bull Dog looks like a massive stocky Boxer?? So I'm still processing that myself.


I love Boxers, but I can't imagine them being a good protection dog. They seem too playful, goofy and are to easily distracted imo. I've never owned one, but that is my impression of the breed.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Years ago I used to train with a renowned dressage trainer who more often than not had millions of dollars worth of horseflesh in his barns at any one time. He entrusted guarding those horses to a large flock of geese. Never had a moment's worry. I know when a friend and I trailered horses down for lessons once a week, we would always check to see where the geese were before we got out of the car!
> 
> Susan


I have scars on my butt from the neighbor's gander. I hated that thing, but the property was protected. That hissing thing still scares me!


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Ganders can be very intimidating, but the girls can be just as scary too! I remember going to one of the neighbor's farm to catch a few babies from their feral goose flock, so we could raise them to eat and ZOMG, they were really into it!  Having a flock of geese after you is scary, but yeah, it was fun dodging them. 

My pair of geese that I have now are fairly tame though, but only to me and a few people. You really just need to show them who's boss.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Where I used to ride, my dressage trainer had a pond we'd cool the horses out walking around, and we all lived in fear of 'Papa Goose'. This big Canada Goose who lived there, that thing would chase us and our horses, we were terrified of it! lol


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

gsdsar said:


> Donkeys are good too. Never getting on a property without a donkey going off!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I had to restrain, get blood, do injections, get a stool sample, and clean hooves on donkeys on my farm rotation when I was in school. I know exactly what you speak of...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Yoshi said:


> Ganders can be very intimidating, but the girls can be just as scary too! I remember going to one of the neighbor's farm to catch a few babies from their feral goose flock, so we could raise them to eat and ZOMG, they were really into it!  Having a flock of geese after you is scary, but yeah, it was fun dodging them.
> 
> My pair of geese that I have now are fairly tame though, but only to me and a few people. You really just need to show them who's boss.


 My gander gets quite nasty during breeding season, he'll hiss and carry on at you if you get close to the nest, but he's all bluff--all you have to do is bend down like you're going to pet him, and he runs away. Just don't turn your back on him! Even during nesting, the girls are quite tame--they were hand-raised and will allow you to pet them.

Still, most people are terribly intimidated by geese, which to me is hilarious. Many people weren't afraid of my 130-lb Akbash dog, but wanted to make sure the geese were put away before coming into the yard!

Still, I find them cuddly. Ours are Sebastopol geese, which are known for gentle temperament.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I love Boxers, but I can't imagine them being a good protection dog. They seem too playful, goofy and are to easily distracted imo. I've never owned one, but that is my impression of the breed.


Aww yeah!


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Freestep said:


> My gander gets quite nasty during breeding season, he'll hiss and carry on at you if you get close to the nest, but he's all bluff--all you have to do is bend down like you're going to pet him, and he runs away. Just don't turn your back on him! Even during nesting, the girls are quite tame--they were hand-raised and will allow you to pet them.


That there, pretty much describes my gander. All bluff, unless he attacks other animals. When he gets really nasty I just give him a hug and he usually stays fairly quite. 

That's such a sweet photo. Love the Sebastapols but I couldn't find any close-by so settled with the Pilgrim goose instead. :wub:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Best advice is still get a dog that has been there done that! GSD or MAl pretty much end of story! 

But since I basically threw Boxers under the bus!  There is potential in them! The American lines... ugh NO. They are my true love however. But the Euro Boxers are a whole norther world! The Boxer guys try and convenience me that the Euros are indeed "goofy." But sorry I'm not buying!! 

I present Cliff Bachvett! 
Cliff vom Grand Kevin


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