# Two dogs I really really like... wondering what would their offspring produce



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm in no way related nor do I know of any planned breedings.

These dogs belong to my TD. I really like both of them... I watch them train every week and while they are not without faults I really like the picture they present want to learn more about their pedigrees, lines, etc.

Of course, I speak to the TD about both dogs and we chat away, but I know there are some people here that know these lines or similar lines and can tell me.

For what it's worth, I'll keep the information on germanshepherds.com and won't go and say "hey this person said this this and that about your dogs". This is just to satisfy my own curiosity but I completely understand if you have reservations answering.

So tell me, what would you expect? What do you think of a hypothetical (as in - in my dreams) breeding? What would you expect? 

Again, just hypothetical. I have no idea what they plan to do with the dogs but love watching them both work, and Heiko has a superrrr long bite (I know, I help with the helper work) which I do like  so I was wondering...

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=662734&mother=630951


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Over the top prey with the possibility of not so strong nerves that will be covered up with prey drive. Excellent dog for sport.

cliff, carmen, Christine and others can probably provide more details


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Ace952 said:


> Over the top prey with the possibility of not so strong nerves that will be covered up with prey drive. Excellent dog for sport.


As someone interested in learning about pedigrees and bloodlines, I would be interested in hearing your reasoning for this statement. Thanks!


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

jmdjack said:


> As someone interested in learning about pedigrees and bloodlines, I would be interested in hearing your reasoning for this statement. Thanks!


Well, you have more than one dog in which nerves are in question. Add in the linebreeding it then means you are increasing chances. Also you have a ton of prey coming in which can mask the weaker nerves. You can get some aggression for sure but are the nerves stable enough to handle? Maybe...maybe not. Not my cup of tea. May also get some smaller sized pups as well. Excellent for sport but that's it.

Hopefully others will chime in so I can see where I'm right and wrong.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Ace952 said:


> Well, you have more than one dog in which nerves are in question. Add in the linebreeding it then means you are increasing chances. Also you have a ton of prey coming in which can mask the weaker nerves. You can get some aggression for sure but are the nerves stable enough to handle? Maybe...maybe not. Not my cup of tea. May also get some smaller sized pups as well. Excellent for sport but that's it.
> 
> Hopefully others will chime in so I can see where I'm right and wrong.


Thanks Ace. I appreciate the response. I do not mean to press you, but if you do not mind, I was hoping for the names of the dogs you are associating with the issues you identified. For instance, which dogs have the nerves in question? Where does the ton of prey come from? Size? 

I, too, would like to here from others as well.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

agreed - plus a couple of very nice size doses of aggression/possibly screw you attitude - possibly dangerous aggression - there is a reaon that some dogs never finish titles and one dog in particular is very well known for --- aggression! 

Lots of prey from the Guy's Hof dogs, which is overall stable and can also bring some aggression...the czech component can add suspicion and combined with some possibility of iffy nerve strength and aggression - 

One of the big problems in breedings is that people breed dogs because they own both of them....dogs kept for sport in kennels are often NOT as understood as dogs who are lived with.....

I think there could be a better breeding choice for both top and bottom by looking elsewhere...This could be awesome sport dogs....but to live with??? Better be really experienced....and prepared for the worst case as well....

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with the others, definitely this would be a combination completely lacking in balance and geared toward extreme dogs with iffy nerve strength. 

As for being great for sport... maybe, maybe not. Plenty of drive for it and a bit of an "edge" to add flash and the appearance of seriousness in protection (though IMO not the correct kind of seriousness a GSD should have), but control could be a huge issue due to drive overloading the nerve strength in this pairing.

Some nice individual dogs in the pedigrees who can bring some very good things if bred right and matched well with other bloodlines to achieve balance. This particular pairing would not be one of those.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

Como rurdam have had plenty offspring here in sweden were he was located, supposedly a very strong dog and seems to have produced above average if looking at his offspring in mentaltests and the ones I have seen in sport.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

More drive than I would like to see.......those lines are starting to bottleneck. Where would you breed the offspring of this breeding? Most out crosses would have problems absorbing the drive base o these pups. Just an observation.


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> One of the big problems in breedings is that people breed dogs because they own both of them....dogs kept for sport in kennels are often NOT as understood as dogs who are lived with.....
> 
> 
> Lee


Often forgotten but very true. I get a bit weary of the sport mantra "how do you know a dog if you didn't title it yourself?" while this simple fact that a dog living in a kennel, only removed for training and trialing, is far far too often not as thoroughly understood as a dog who is lived with 24/7 by the person considering the breeding. There are MANY weaknesses that can be easily masked by a halfway decent trainer and a lot of prey drive. Hang out in all live situations with a dog for a few years; you'll see quite a bit if you know what to look for.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> More drive than I would like to see.......those lines are starting to bottleneck. Where would you breed the offspring of this breeding? *Most out crosses would have problems absorbing the drive base o these pups*. Just an observation.


This is an interesting concept to ponder. You don't think the drive would moderate in the next generation with an outcrossing to a very stable medium drive partner?


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

robk said:


> This is an interesting concept to ponder. You don't think the drive would moderate in the next generation with an outcrossing to a very stable medium drive partner?


Not necessarily. Genes don't always work like that. I have a bitch whose grandpups are almost exactly like her pups...some genes are more prepotent than others. You could also end up with "wildcards" in a litter to an outcross like that. You could get medium drive, iffy nerves, high aggression, or any combination. I prefer to breed balance whenever possible for that reason- less chance of wildcards if the parents are "type to type" breeding. I don't care what lines they are, but I want similar types that complement each other.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Just curious, what type of breeding would the pedigree gurus suggest with either of these dogs, to balance the drive and solidify the nerve?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

The sire--I wouldn't want to add any more Timmy/Troll) or Mink or even Orry. I'd also want to try to avoid adding more Fado(Harro). So, with that said, I've just eliminated almost all of the top sport names. 

Look at his linebreeding and the backmassing:

8,6,6 - 7,8,8,7 Greif zum Lahntal
7 - 6,7,7,8,6..................................... in Afra vom Stoppenberger Land
8,8 - 8,8......................................... in V Racker vom Itztal

So where are you going to go with this breeding? It's either go back to more of the same or look hard for new lines--Czech (the ones that haven't been bred to Tom or Yoschy bloodlines), or some of the lesser known German working lines -- maybe Vox vd Kine (which still brings in Troll) or Sid vh Pixner (brings in Mink) or a dog like Ike v Donauvorstadt (who still goes back to Mink) who brings in some major non-Fero bloodlines as well as old herding bloodlines.

Or you find a counterbalancing dog with similar bloodlines--which can be hard to do and may not work. Or you breed back to a similar dog from similar bloodlines and get some great dogs, some odd ones, some outliers.

It weird, the more pedigrees you study, the more you realize how little diversity there is within a breed (by definition--that's what a dog breed is)--particularly within the subpools within the breed.

I really like the female's pedigree, but she's heavily back-massed on Grief, who was known for his sharpness:


7,7 - 6,8,7,7..................................... in V-INT CH Greif zum Lahntal
8,8 - 7,8,8....................................... in V Jago von den Jungen Hansen
8,8 - 7,8,8....................................... in SG Cora zum Lahntal
I'd probably look to take her back to a dog who carries Chicco vd Fasanerie or another dog who goes back to Ilja or maybe some Maneiche bloodlines--watching the amount of Greif behind the stud dog. 



She's also only got one line back to Fero, so that opens up a lot of the Fero bloodlines--but I'd prefer to avoid going back to any more Yoschy/Troll, and I'd avoid Troll Koerbelbach and no more Verwin to increase diversity and avoid quadrupling up on those traits she's already really strong in.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ blackthorn:wub::wub:


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks Cliff. 

I really do like the female's pedigree--and it was an interesting exercise to think about what I would look for in a stud dog on paper--and then, of course, you have to make sure the stud dog matches the female in front of you in terms of being a complementary match as far as temperament, health, drives, and conformation.


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