# Proper age to make protection work



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

My first topic seemed to make quite an impression, 95 posts and around 1200 views. Perhaps this will also get people thinking.

I worked with a trainer from Belgium a while back who most would know or at least would know the dogs he has shown. His position on starting a young dog in protection is to wait until they are a year old. That is all the detail I will give at the moment. Opinions.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I think my club doesn't start dogs in protection until 15 months. Which trainer in Belgium?


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

At least a year and then only when they show they are ready.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Define 'start in protection'.

Mauser started rag work at 3 months. I've seen young pups (under 6 months of age) doing sleeve work - all in PLAY mode.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Expand on that Lauri. All the time you see young pups being worked. Why or why not is it a good idea?


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Hmm...Starting - is prey building with rag and tug with a decoy as a pup not considered "protection" work? So for clarification of terms, what is the definition of starting protection? Pressure and biting the sleeve? Much appeciated.

As I started this sport when my dog was 14 months, my experience is limited. We did prey work. Some sleeve work but then decided to "put him up" to mature and started in earnest on the sleeve when he was more ready at about 19 or 20 months. 
My guess is that tug work and as young puppy is to gain confidence and develop prey drive and beginning to teach proper gripping. It appears that the more balanced fight drive is not that present as a pup, but in a more mature dog.


----------



## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

I'm really looking forward to the discussion on this topic!











> Quote: At least a year and then only when they show they are ready.


Anne, could you elaborate a bit more as to what behaviours you would see in a dog who is showing that they are "ready"?


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

OK. I have learned that I must be very specific on this board so we will define "Protection work" as follows:
" Any interaction between dog and helper where the helper induces, incites, encourages, teaches and/or trains barking and/or gripping behavior from the dog or attempts to do so. However, for the purpose of this discussion we shall not consider one or two dog/helper interaction(s) "protection work" so long as the primary purpose of said interaction(s) is to evaluate the quality of the dog or ascertain his suitability for the work. "

Is that a clear enough definition?


----------



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I've heard 1 year over at workingdogforum.com.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:" Any interaction between dog and helper where the helper induces, incites, encourages, teaches and/or trains barking and/or gripping behavior from the dog or attempts to do so. However, for the purpose of this discussion we shall not consider one or two dog/helper interaction(s) "protection work" so long as the primary purpose of said interaction(s) is to evaluate the quality of the dog or ascertain his suitability for the work. "
> 
> Is that a clear enough definition?


Uh.....no. 
You lost me after "however"


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgExpand on that Lauri. All the time you see young pups being worked. Why or why not is it a good idea?


It's a good idea (if done PROPERLY) because you are building a foundation for the 'real' work later.

Teaching a puppy to grab and hold on, to tug and LOVE to tug, is building the foundation for the serious bitework to come.

I wouldn't put *pressure* on a dog until they are mentally mature. To me, that means that up until that time everything is PLAY and the dog ALWAYS wins. And it's not a set date - every dog mentally matures differently.

For me it's like beginning obedience. I begin obedience with my pups when they are 4 weeks old. The CC pups I have now will start their obedience lessons next week - with their first real meal. They will be practicing a recall - I call them to come and they eat.

It is 100% motivational - NO pressure, no punishment if they don't respond they way I want.

I am a human teacher (adults in a corporate setting). You set someone up to FAIL and they will (eventually) and that's all they remember. You set someone up to SUCCEED and they will (every time) and they remember THAT.

Of course you do have to show them what happens when they fail, too. But since they already know the CORRECT way it's what they revert back to.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Anne,

The purpose of that statement is to basically say that if you test a six,seven, eight month old puppy to make sure that he has what you are looking for, then I do not consider that as starting protection work. It is only a test and not meant to make or expand a puppy's willingness to do the work, only to see if it is there to begin with.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

@ Lauri,
And you don't see any potential problems in this?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it depends on the dog. I was a little lost on the definition of "protection", but I guess I don't really consider the puppy rag work real "protection" work. It seems that some dogs are really object or prey oriented and other dogs are more real, but IMO it's not appropriate to be working the real dogs civil when they are really young. My dog did not really care for the "game" of protection work. He has prey drive and lots of _ball_ drive but is not really object oriented in protection so there were a few plateau months where he was still just a puppy and not ready for serious work but didn't really see any real threat in the helper waving a sleeve at him. When he was ready to take more pressure and more threat, he started getting better and better each week and surpassing some dogs that were doing better or were older, but it would not have been good to work him like that too young I don't think. So I think there's nothing wrong with waiting until the dog is a year old. Nothing much was accomplished with my own dog in the protection phase until that age (but I am glad we went starting early because I needed and still need a ton of guidance with obedience and tracking). However I think in my own case, waiting too long might be a problem because I have no experience like most of the people here so not only and I working my particular dog, but I am learning how to handle him, how to line handle, how to reward some things and correct others, how to work on control, etc. Often the newbs like me help work the clean SchH3 dogs so it's important we go even if our dog is not ready for serious work yet. When I first stared someone told me, "This is your first dog for SchH, you will probably ruin him, or get another dog someday and look back at all of this wondering what you were thinking when you did this or that..." I look at it as my dog teaching me even more than I am training him.

I think that it's much more difficult to fix something than start off later on, and much better to do nothing than do it wrong or too soon.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

@ Lies,

Ok, how is this for a definition? If the dog barks at or bites the helper (or sleeve, rag etc.) or the helper tries to make the dog do so then that is "protection work" 

I did put a little clause in there about testing a dog, but in the scheme of things it is unimportant.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks, one of your other posts did clarify it for me (where you said, if the dog is working on something/improving, not just being evaluated).

I also think it depends on the quality of the helper, even moreso with the young puppies. I've seen people doing ragwork with their dogs thinking they are helping but not really paying any attention to what is going on or not knowing what to look for. Then I watch a good helper and even with a 10 week old pup they know how to reward the barks, get the correct grip, reward the correct grip, help the puppy hold the rag in the correct grip, not be too much of a presence that the pup gets shy, etc.

When I got my dog this was and still is totally new to me so I was told not to do any sort of protection work or rag work other than backtying my dog and frustrating him and just treating him like he was king of the world. Let the helper do the protection. But I think many people here are good helpers and trainers so they can do more with their puppies (or, know that the puppy is strong genetically and be able to very little until a certain age and get great results).


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: [email protected] Lauri,
> And you don't see any potential problems in this?


No, not when done correctly.

Take a young child and start teaching them tumbling. Somersaults, walking on a low3 balance beam, etc. It's all fun and games ... at first.

As the child ages and becomes more physically and MENTALLY (emotionally) mature they decide to get serious about it and start competing. Since they already know HOW to do the routines they con concentrate on technique and handling the stress of competing.

No, I'm not comparing dogs to kids (dogs are better behaved







) but the analogy is the same.

Start a dog young, keep it fun and when they are READY apply some pressure.

A dog that was started as a pup gets to one year of age and you change from play to pressure. The dog already knows the game - knows what's expected of them so there really isn't any stress.

You take a dog at one year of age that has had NO foundation work and apply pressure and you run a great risk of getting stress.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I got kind of a silly question - What do you mean by "pressure" - I would assume that it means that the helper starts to come after the dog in a threatening manner?


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

The Belgian trainer's reasoning behind waiting until the dog is a year old is at that point the helper is able to make both prey and defense and basically is able to do what he needs to do to make good work. Prior to this age the helper is largely limited to making only prey and there are severe limitations to a dog working entirely in prey. So his argument was "Why handicap the helper? Allow him to have all the tools that he needs to make good work." (You have to imagine that being said in a strong belgian accent to get the full effect.)
I largely agree with him. The problem that occurs when you work a young dog extensively in prey or "as a game" is that he continues to look upon the work as a game and it requires drastic steps to change this outlook. Talk about stress! Why must he not view the work as a game? Well for starters how can he make good guarding if he is comfortable and not under some sort of stress? He can't. Good guarding requires aggression, he is not coming into the blind to beg for the sleeve or initiate play, he is coming in there to start a fight. In order for there to be aggression the dog must be uncomfortable, and if a dog views the protection as a game why would he be uncomfortable?


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Certainly not a new concept but it's interesting that what is old is becoming new again. We just had this discussion on the euro list and I said almost exactly what the Belgian guy did.... only without the accent. 
I do want to say this about stress. People who are trying to find ways to train with no stress are going to be contributing to the further demise of the GSD. The dogs must be capable of dealing with stress and that ability is genetic. If you have no way to test that ability in the dog, it will be gone in no time. You can look to the show dogs to see what I am referring to. Creating dogs like that is IMO, a form of cruelty.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

No, not a new concept, but one that seems to have been lost somewhere for many folks. 
Next time you should try saying it with the accent....It seems that anyone who has a german or belgian accent gets immediate credibility when discussing dogs, regardless of what they say.
In regards to training with no stress, this is part of the reason I always say that I want to see a dog at training and not on the trial field. I don't care if you did score 100 points, I want to see what you are doing to the dog to make 100 points. There are too many excellent trainers out there to trust what you see on the trial field.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Well, I will just say this and then I am done for the evening. Mostly there are people putting too little stress on the dogs and then there are those on the other side, who completely overdo it. There is a difference between bringing out the drive and fight in the dog vs trying to put it into the dog. Mostly, I see helpers trying to put it in the dog and, in my non-credible, because I have a yankee accent opinion, that is a big mistake.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Anne,

I'll tell you what. I wouldn't care if you had a martian accent, you have got it dead on!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:I do want to say this about stress. People who are trying to find ways to train with no stress are going to be contributing to the further demise of the GSD. The dogs must be capable of dealing with stress and that ability is genetic. If you have no way to test that ability in the dog, it will be gone in no time. You can look to the show dogs to see what I am referring to. Creating dogs like that is IMO, a form of cruelty.


Thank you Anne for stating this. The GSD is a working dog. Work involves stress. LIFE involves stress. We must know how the dogs handle stress to be able to contuinue to breed working dogs (and even sound pets for that matter).


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

OK. I can appreciate Art and Anne's input alot. However are their not skills in protection work that can be addressed as pups too? As a young puppy they can learn to aim for the target, becoming "sleeve safe" and gripping - for example. It is silly to just be working in positive, no pressure at all. Criminy, being born is a huge stressor on pups, can't hear, can't see? That is stress!!

Second how easy is it to find a helper and trainer who know how to switch between prey and defense? Not too easy. Sometimes working in prey is all you have because that is all your helper can do. If you even have a helper. But that is a whole other topic.

It seems there are several issues here 1) when should pressure be added 2) How can you determine when the fight drive emerges in a dog 3) How can you know when a dog has enough of both prey and fight to be truly tested and developed

There are also dogs who really can only work in defense and some prey drive, but maybe it shows up really early in the pups development. It appears that a dog needs to have an outlet for the stress. Yes? And the switching of drives theory in protection work seems to mean that prey drive is used for that relief. I have seen young pups get pressure form the helper and do just fine with it, because they will get the bite soon. 

This issue of testing nerve, drives, temperamnet in protection is schutzhund at its core and what separates SchH from just sport at a fundamental level. Its also what makes it an artform and a blast.

Now as my standard disclaimer. The more I know the less I know. I have been doing this wonderful crazy SchH for only 4 years with one - high prey drive dog. He is in no way breedworthy according to hard-line working enthusiasts. The PROCESS of training is showing me my weaknesses and bringing forward his strengths and weakness. Schutzhund has taught me what kind of dog I have. This is just my perceptions. I need to go tracking now. Buh Bye.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Whew, this is good topic. I hate to always agree with Anne,(no I don't...LOL) but these concepts are the way we used to train in the seventies, though probably with less prey emphasis in those days. The prey was incorporated in the channeling of the dog from defense to prey as relief stressors and the promoting of the dog to kick into active aggression. Their was no specific emphasis on building prey drive like it is in sport. The prey drive was used in conjunction with channeling, sometimes after the bite sometimes before the bite, sometimesback and forth on one bite in strenghtening intensity thus grips.
Zahn and Anne, you are right in that you can't train successfully with true service dogs without stress. By service I mean areas where the dog HAS to be serious to do their job. The stress can be man made such as proofing the dogs or the stress can be created by animals such as a ram taking on the herding dog. But a form of seriousness must be present in these instances and seiousness will manufacture stress. That's why a lot of sport today is play/prey mongering that is leading to whole segments of dogs that can't handle stress thus aren't fit for service.


----------



## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

I like to take a pup out once a month or so after teething for simple rag work, just to "see" where their brain is at, and evaluate the pup in my own head. At this age I am just looking to see genetic behavoirs so I can plan on what I will be working with. 

I don't start real protection work where I start to have expectations, goals, and a plan until they are about a year old. I like to wait until they are physically and more mentally mature. Even then, I still might give them a month or two off depending on their maturity level or the level of advancement. Some dogs I have had to put the brakes on, as they were just moving along too quickly for their own good, some just like to hang onto the goof ball stage for longer than I'd like.

By age two, we are full steam ahead.

I like the plan of 4 years to build to SchH3, 4 years to compete, and 4 years to retire and enjoy. I see too many dogs these days ready for a 3 at 2-3 years old, only to have vital foundation skipped, or the dog is simply worked too hard too soon, then by 4 or 5 then are burned out or no longer competitive for a variety of reasons that could have been prevented.


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Excellent Excellent points!!! Especially in light that next week I am bringing home my new pup.

Give me more discussion, please!


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Second how easy is it to find a helper and trainer who know how to switch between prey and defense? Not too easy. Sometimes working in prey is all you have because that is all your helper can do. If you even have a helper. But that is a whole other topic.


It’s not really another topic. Training a dog in protection is a skill and requires a natural feel and ability to read the dog. When I watch dogs, I also watch the people doing the helper work. When you watch dogs , you can see certain things that indicate a type of temperament and natural genetic ability. It is really quite clear after you have seen and worked dogs this long. The same goes for people. It takes a certain type of temperament to be a good training helper but it also requires a naturalness in the way you interact with the dogs. The more natural you are in response to what the dog does, the faster the dog learns. What maybe took me weeks to accomplish with a dog when I first started helper work, now I can do in a few sessions. It is second nature at this point and that is what the dogs really respond to, the natural way a helper works. Just like the dogs, I can see this in the people even from the first time they work a dog. Those are the ones I will try to develop because just like a dog who doesn’t have it, you won’t get very far, no matter how hard you work with him, if the helper lacks that gift.



> Quote:It is silly to just be working in positive, no pressure at all.


 Anytime you work the dog in a less than balanced way you will create a problem. It goes both ways with too much pressure or too much play or prey. 

This idea of playing with the young dogs, ( which is quite common now), and using a helper to do it, IMO, is a mistake. The work I see so much of now with a rag on a whip with the helper, I don’t care for at all. Then it is all about the rag with way too little helper interaction . When that is imprinted in the dog, you have problems later. The helper has to be a part of this and must challenge even a young dog over that prey object. I have worked younger dogs, ( very sparingly), but when I did, I challenged the pup . Sure, only to the level that he could handle, but it was clear, I was challenging him over the prey….just like his littermates challenged him over toys or anything else they wanted to possess
Also this idea that you have to teach a dog how to bite is ridiculous. Dogs know how to bite. Having said that, you are more likely to have problems in how the dog bites if your helper does not understand how to achieve a balance and you can only work with those drives in the dog when they are there….meaning when the dog is older. You have to be a good actor, read and see how the dog reacts to what you do as the helper, ( another thing that so many helpers do not notice), and you simply must respond to every LITTLE thing the dog does. Not just the big ones . Mostly people squash the dogs trying to get that big reaction vs. doing what I just said. Mostly because they don’t notice the little things because they lack that feel and ability to read the dogs.
I could go on and on but to sum it up, you do have to have the right helper and trying to switch from play to more serious work requires GREAT skill and is mostly done with the helper‘s attitude, not with pain or force…..or a whip…..something else I have seen a lot of. I also see helpers who try to do this with the attitude but go WAY overboard or it is just meaningless to the dog . They don’t have that mental ability or presence but try to mimic the body language. The dogs can see what you are thinking in your body language, so, you have to actually use your head and know when to use more or less presence and just at the right time. Cliff described what you are doing there really well.

Aggression, like was already mentioned is required in the protection routine. The training helper’s job is to show the dog when and where to use that aggression and to re-enforce it so the dog is confident and powerful. That’s where the prey work comes in. The judges are now going to start asking for more of this, ( like they used to), so, those who do not understand are going to be upset with their score. Also, aggression lives right next door to avoidance, so, you have to be able to work the dog at that line without crossing it which…again…requires the ability to read the dogs. You need more than someone wearing a sleeve who will react when you yell “run Forest run”. 
I have worked with a number of helpers who do the majority of the training at their clubs. When I have said things to them about the way they work the dogs, all of them said that no one in their club ever told them any of the things that I just said above. I can’t say I am stunned by that but it speaks volumes about how little people understand SchH protection training nowadays and what it has become.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Take today for instance. I have a strong 11 month old male(5-5, Fero, and 5-5 Arek vom Stoffelblick) that I am currently working in the box. Our club training director is an athlectic 60 year old man that has been training protection dogs for 40 years. He reads dogs excellent and you could interchange Anne and him because they work the same way. Well today a very good Sch Helper (in thirties), came down to train with us. He asked me what I was doing with Fero and I told him I was working him in the box with bite bisquit. He asked could he work him, I didn't mind because I took for granted he would "work the dog". Now my purpose of working him in the box at this point in his life is because he is a dog with strong prey drive and great nerve. In the box I can work on his bark and aggression without him kicking into prey. His inability to go forward puts stress on him that he works through and gets relief with a bite on the bisquit. Our TD is excellent at reading dogs and bringing things out of him that are strong and sure. Well, this Sch helper starts working him and comes straight up to him and starts working him in prey. Totally not reading the dog but making the dog react to him. I finally had to stop him and explain "the concept" of what we're working on with a strong 11 month old dog in the box. Our TD said later I was wondering when you were going to stop him because all he knows is today's sch and didn't understand what we're doing with this dog. I told our TD i told him I wanted to strengthen x,y,z, but the reality is the decoy has only trained in prey modes conceptually.
My point is for this dog I am not ready to do actual sleeve work, though I could easily, but I don't want a prey monster either. So the box affords me an opportunity to allow this dog to work in stress and learn to handle it and relieve it with good strong bite on the pillow, also strengthens his barking.
Anyway, the dog is fine as he loves the box, and you can see his internal strength increasing with stress. Don't worry we don't put too much on him as he comes on the field and pulls me into the box so he can work, but our success with the box is because we have people who know when to use it and how to read the dogs reaction while using it to build the dogs up.


----------



## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Man I love reading these types of post.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Agree! It is amazing and a priviledge to get this kind of information and insight and experience so well illustrated and articulated. Thanks Cliff!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Trained last night in the rain, since it was raining I decided not to work Fero in the box but justdo some send ins for hold and bark, give bite and slip. Man was his intensity level strong...you could see his strong eye contact with John and deep barking and full (he's always full)strong grips. afterwards John asked me what do you think...I said great work tonight but lets go back to the box and continue for another month. He said "boy" like minds think alike." We are also working on the reveir in the box with the reward for the strong deep bark that it is easy to elicit from the box. It is transferring right on the field nicely. 
Once again, I am not trying to promote the box to people, and this same principle can be achieved when dog is on tie-out. I am just allowing people to see how I am handling this particular dog with the strengths and assets he possesses....Cliff


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

At the club I train with, there are many mals and one dutchie. The dutch is about 10 months and is a spinner on the harness. After reading this thread last week and seeing him yet again spin so much, I think the box would help him stop this behavior? It can also be dangerous to him, as he gets ramped up,then tangled in his line.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Spinning is often the result of nerve leakage, and it can also become habitual or entrenched. the box would be beneficial in acclimating the dog to dealing with the confrontation without spinning. Its not as simple as JUST the box, but the box would definitely minimize this behavoir while the dog is worked.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Jane,

Another idea is for the handler to simply step forward with the dog, thus the dog learns to bark and move forward, instead of spinning. 

Clif,
I have a question for you. Allow me to preface by saying that I do not have a lot of experince in using either the box nor a table to make protection. My use of a table has been largely limited to making retrieves on the retrieve table. While I understand the concepts, I have not had a chance to see how well its use translates to the field. So my question is how well does what a dog learns in the box or on a table translate to the field? I recall a conversation I had more than a few years ago with Dr. Hilliard regarding the table and this was his concern as well. Is a dog able to translate what is learned on the table (or box as the case may be) to the field?


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It depends on what you are seeking to do in the box. Many people use the box to strengthen barking in "prey monsters". Many dogs of today are So locked in prey that they have a hard time barking and then its a high pitched prey bark. The box removes the prey ability (physically) and often the dog will bark strong and deeper from frustration or lack of forward movement. This is then built upon and rewarded. It will transfer to the field in terms of improving this component. Some people use box to develop bite and learn to bite full comfortably, not in prey drive. I am using it right now to improve the intensity on a young dog in barking and H and B.
But primarily I am using the box to work my dog and give him bites in a defensive mode so that he gets acclimated to gripping from that mindset. It allows me to work his bite in two modes so to speak at a young age, to give the balance that I like. I can reward the deep bark with bite and eventually I will teach the out from there. But remember, I work with a very talented TD in terms of working a dog in defense....and my boy is eating this up. In conclusion the degree of transition is contingent on the expectation. For me the box allows me to introduce some things at a level I like with control of handling freed up allowing me to be their along side him supportive, and kind of like a partner revving him up even more and praising him quicker with mouth and hands. The polish for me comes on the field but the intensity and clearness is emphasized in the box at this stage.


----------

