# Please help! Do I have a runt?



## sablesammy (Mar 25, 2015)

Hi I just bought my gsp on Sunday the 22nd of March. The person I got her from said she was about 7 weeks old but the paper work he gave me said she was born on Jan. 25th. That is a weeks difference right away. So as of Today she would be 8.5 weeks old according to the paper work which I'm scared they just wrote a date and called it a day. Does she look right? Seems very small. She only weighs 7lbs on the dot. Her ears are very small and floppy, paws are small as well. The dad was 110lbs and the mom was 85lbs. I'm scared she is much younger then what he told me. Any help would be great.

p.s. I'm a new member and this is my first post, love the site. So much great info, hope to stick around for a long time.


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## Ruger Monster (Jan 29, 2015)

When I brought Ruger home at 7 weeks, he was 5lb (going by the scale at Pet Supplies Plus). The first "official" weight I got on him was at 8.5 weeks and he was only 6.8lb... His mom was 80-85lb and his dad was 100+lb. He's 18 weeks old now and weighed 32lb at the vet on Monday. I was worried when I brought him home too, thinking something was wrong with him for being so small (he DID have coccidia when I brought him to the vet @ 8.5 weeks).

I read a lot of posts in another thread today about puppies that were even smaller than him at 8 weeks. She'll have a few growth spurts  I stopped going by the "gsd growth chart" because puppies are like people and grow at all different rates! 

Welcome & congrats on your new addition 

The first pic is him @ 7 weeks and ~5lb
Next pics are him @ 8 weeks and ~6lb.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

She looks like she had a rough start. 7 pounds is small for 8 weeks, but not unheard of. There is a litter I know of that was four weeks old Monday, both sire is smaller than your sire, and dam is about the same. Pups are 7 pounds. But your puppy is not four weeks old. His eyes are brown, not blue, and at four weeks they would be blue. 

That litter had six large puppies at birth. If your litter had more, than the pups birth weight may have been smaller, and they may grow at a slower rate. The pup looks about 6 weeks old, but if the paper work says 8 weeks, then, it still could be true. 

Has your breeder given you other reasons to doubt her word, and what does your vet say? The ears can be floppy at this point. That's a lot of white still on the paw for 8 weeks, but that will probably turn silver by the time the pup is full grown.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Is it just me or does she look like she could be mixed? Cute pup though!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Bella67 said:


> Is it just me or does she look like she could be mixed? Cute pup though!


I've never owned a sable. I was wondering if it was more of a red dog, without a saddle. The white toes and clear nails are throwing me. I thought sables would have dark nails and possibly penciling on their paws. 

I don't like to consider a dog being mixed unless it is totally obvious. There are so many GSDs out there, so many lines, and bloodlines within the lines ,and crosses between the lines, that are still 
purebred, that they can be small or large, heavy short nose or long pointy muzzle, angulation or no angulation, thick set or thin, heavy boned or slab sided, curly tails, and floppy ears, and white on their toes and so on. 

We will have to wait and see.

I wonder what color/pattern the sire and dam were.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

she does have that bitch stripe down her back but it is very light. The sable puppies I've seen have that super dark stripe around that age. Or she could just be a lighter shepherd? To me, I don't think she looks GSD imo, maybe a little bit if you really look at the pictures. OP, do you have any pics of the parents? The really light nails also are strange, normally they're dark.


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## sablesammy (Mar 25, 2015)

Thank you for the info Ruger. That helps take some weight off my shoulders. 

Selzer, I too think she is around 6-7 weeks. From all the pics I have seen of 6 and 7 week old pups she looks so much like them and not like a 8-9 week old pup. Paper work is just a piece of paper they wrote on with ink. I don't think it was legit to be honest. Ya I have doubts now, the breeder wont call or text me back with all my questions. I'm getting annoyed at this point. I cant just drive up to him either he is about a 2hr drive from me.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

wow some breeder. She is cute either way! My guess would be lab or boxer mix.
She looks a lot like these dogs https://www.google.com/search?q=ger...ch&q=german+shepherd+boxer+mix+puppy&imgdii=_ 

I could be wrong though..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

she has the ring on her tail that a sable has. It's possible she's just a super light sable. Or she could be a mix. Only time will tell.

Bella - that's not a bitch stripe. I'll find a picture and PM it to you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bella - http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/basic-care/103556-neutering-bitch-stripe.html


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Oops, my bad I thought it was a bitch stripe. Thanks for correcting me!


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## sablesammy (Mar 25, 2015)

Just got off phone with breeder. I just found out there were 11 pups. No wonder she is so small


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## sablesammy (Mar 25, 2015)

she is not mix I will post pic of mom and dad


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## sablesammy (Mar 25, 2015)

front left paw first and front right paw second and third


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## sablesammy (Mar 25, 2015)

I just did a bing search for red sable german shepherd puppy's and found a bunch that look just like her, so I guess she is a red sable. Thanks for all the info you guys.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

can we see pics of the parents?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sablesammy said:


> front left paw first and front right paw second and third


doesn't mean anything.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

I don't think she looks like a red sable at all. Were one of the two parents sable? If not, she's mixed.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Looks a bit mixed to me - especially with the white feet. 

The GSD sables I've seen and raised as pups tend to not have those type of features. Pup does resemble a couple mixes I've fostered though.

Would make sense he weighs less if he isn't full GSD. 

GSDs tend to be 10+ pounds at the age you say he is.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

White toes and light (clear) nails occur in the breed. Usually the white turns silver and recedes so that it isn't noticeable when full grown. I have only seen those on black and tan pups, but I do not have any real experience with sables, so I guess they could occur on them as well, especially if one parent was black and tan.

11 pups will make a difference in how big the puppies are. They will have smaller birth weights, and the over all growth of the litter as a whole will generally be slower, than a litter with 7 or fewer puppies sucking the mother dry. 

When the pups start eating on their own, larger puppies will get the lion's share and the gap between the smaller and larger puppies can increase.

What type of registration is it? AKC, CKC (Canadian Kennel Club), ACA, UKC, CKC (Continental Kennel Club). 

I am not thinking the puppy is mixed, I think it is probably a mixture of lines which would make it a total outcross. But no way to tell that. It would be interesting to see the sire and dam.


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## sablesammy (Mar 25, 2015)

first one is sire second one is dam. Thanks again for all the feed back everyone. Great forum.


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## sablesammy (Mar 25, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> doesn't mean anything.


All I was doing was showing a close up of her nails, thats it.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

How could she be that dark when she was born but so light now?


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## annap24 (Jul 22, 2014)

Can a dog be sable if both parents are black and tan? I didn't think that was possible.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Those are two showline dogs, sable showlines are possible but rare.... I very much doubt that puppy came from those parents though I don't see how that could be possible. Something about the face and ears doesn't look like a purebred GSD IMO.


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## sablesammy (Mar 25, 2015)

Bella67 said:


> How could she be that dark when she was born but so light now?


that is not a pic of her litter


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Two black and tan dogs cannot produce a sable. If either parent had a sable gene they would appear sable because it is dominant over b/t.

The pup looks mixed to me as well. Without genetic testing to determine who the father is it will not be known who the father is. The female could have very well had a litt erwith more than one sire...the other sire not being a GSD. In such case there are two possibilities: 1) The bitch's owner did not keep a close eye on her at all times and didn't know another dog got to her or 2) The bitch's owners are knowningly forging registrations.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

I also agree that I think she's mixed. She just doesn't look like a GSD.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First, those do not look like German show lines to me. And sables are not rare in American show line lines.

Second, it's entirely possible the mother is a patterned sable. A very washed out patterned sable. And I've seen sable pups with white toes.

Bella - sables go from dark to light and back to dark again. 

Regardless...enjoy your pup. You'll be able to tell more about breed as she grows.


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## sablesammy (Mar 25, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> First, those do not look like German show lines to me. And sables are not rare in American show line lines.
> 
> Second, it's entirely possible the mother is a patterned sable. A very washed out patterned sable. And I've seen sable pups with white toes.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you Jax, I will keep you guys posted. Only time will tell.

I have had her for 5 days and she is waaaay darker then when I got her and she is getting waaay more black on her back now as well. When I first got her she only had a tiny little spot now the line is going down the middle of her back


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I doubt your puppy will be as dark as Seger but here is the progression of a sable

Seger at 8 weeks








11 weeks








13 weeks








15 weeks








6 months








Now


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between a patterned sable and a black and tan. Is it possible the pup is a black and tan without a saddle? Or would that be very unlikely with the dark muzzle?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Second, it's entirely possible the mother is a patterned sable. A very washed out patterned sable. And I've seen sable pups with white toes.


Yep! Echo is a sable (patterned) and had white toes when he was a pup. They disappeared with age. He was very dark at birth, then lightened, then got dark, then lightened as the "pattern" receded.


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