# What do you think of the vet's diagnosis?



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Hey, everyone!

Last Tuesday evening, Vesper started having diarrhea very frequently. At first, I just waited to see if it would clear up on its own, but by Thursday morning she was still having diarrhea all the time. It got to the point that she couldn't even go through the night without having to be let out to have diarrhea. She hasn't had to go out during the night since she was 9 weeks old. Another troubling thing is that she strains to poop, but can't always go, even though she obviously feels like she needs to defecate.
I took her to the vet this morning, and they prescribed her a medication to help stop up the diarrhea, an antimicrobial medication, some probiotics in a powder form, and some cans of prescription diet soft food. The vet told us to feed it to her over brown rice, and to do several small meals throughout the day. The vet's official diagnosis was "colitis," possibly brought on by stress.

My problems with this are that Vesper hasn't been under a lot of stress, at least that I've been able to tell. She had her obedience class on Monday evening, which we have been doing for a couple of weeks, and she seemed more relaxed than usual. The only thing that I can think of that's different is some treats that I fed her during her obedience class. Vesper LOVES junky treats. I try not to feed them to her unless I really need to reward her, and want her to be totally focused on me. On Monday, for obedience class, I fed her some little beef based dog treats that we got from Walmart. That's the only diet change that I can think of. Could that be what has caused her terrible diarrhea? She had normal stool Monday evening, and earlier Tuesday. 

The OTHER troubling thing was that there was a new dog at obedience class, and he had diarrhea on the floor because he was so nervous. The trainer's assistant cleaned up the diarrhea pretty effectively, in my opinion, but I noticed Vesper trying to sniff where the diarrhea had been when we would walk past it while practicing our loose leash walking. Is it possible that she picked up some sort of bug from the other dog's diarrhea?? Has anyone experienced a similar situation? What do you all think of the vet's diagnosis??

Thanks for your help...


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Did he eat anything dangerous like walnuts or garlic or something in the yard? 

My dog can't tolerate beef, and will get runny stools. I had to dump the beef treats I had. It could be stress related due to obedience if he's not used to it.

I'm surprised the vet didn't take a stool sample to test for worms or giardia.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Did he eat anything dangerous like walnuts or garlic or something in the yard?
> 
> My dog can't tolerate beef, and will get runny stools. I had to dump the beef treats I had. It could be stress related due to obedience if he's not used to it.
> 
> I'm surprised the vet didn't take a stool sample to test for worms or giardia.



No, she is never allowed outside alone. She's also acting pretty normal. She has taken a few more naps than usual, but isn't super lethargic and doesn't seem to be in pain.

She has had a different brand of beef treats in the past with no problems, but she has never had this specific brand that we fed her at obedience class. That is why I was surprised, because she has never had a problem with beef before... 

The vet said that if she hasn't improved by Monday to bring in a stool sample. I'm just worried about her getting dehydrated. We have been trying to get her to drink and adding extra water to her small meals, but she hasn't been drinking a lot. I have also been giving her ice cubes. Any ideas for getting her to drink more water?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What tests did the vet run on your dog? Stool sample? Giardia? Coronavirus? 

Yes, the treats from WalMart could be an issue. Has she had beef before? Could be other ingredients in there reaking havoc with her system. I would put them away and use something that she has been fine with in the past, or people food, treats, like cheese, for a high value reward.

Dogs are unlikely to get Salmonella. Their system is rather fast, so it is unlikely, except in very young or elderly dogs, or dogs with issues with their immune system -- it's a possibility.

But what concerns me is straining and then shooting out diarrhea, or not going. Does anyone else think this could be a partial blockage?


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

selzer said:


> What tests did the vet run on your dog? Stool sample? Giardia? Coronavirus?
> 
> Yes, the treats from WalMart could be an issue. Has she had beef before? Could be other ingredients in there reaking havoc with her system. I would put them away and use something that she has been fine with in the past, or people food, treats, like cheese, for a high value reward.
> 
> ...


The vet said that if she hasn't improved by Monday to bring in a stool sample for testing... :/ I won't feed her the treats again, although she has had beef treats in the past with no problems. Very confusing.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Seltzer, maybe. I don't have experience with that, only what I've read here.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

A blockage is what I'm really concerned about...


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

The vet said that she didn't think that a blockage was likely, because Vessie isn't bloated at all and she hasn't vomited at all either. She said that she thought it was something more like colon spasms.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Do you know how to check for dehydration? Pull up on the skin on the back of the neck and it should spring right back into place. If it is sluggish, then you should get her back to the vet. How's her nose. If it is dry and warm, take her temperature. 

Monday is a long way off. If any of her symptoms gets worse, get her back to a vet.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

selzer said:


> Do you know how to check for dehydration? Pull up on the skin on the back of the neck and it should spring right back into place. If it is sluggish, then you should get her back to the vet. How's her nose. If it is dry and warm, take her temperature.
> 
> Monday is a long way off. If any of her symptoms gets worse, get her back to a vet.


The vet took her temperature and said that it was fine, but I haven't taken it myself. My husband is home with her right now, but I'll be home in a couple of hours and I can check her then. Also, do you guys have any tricks for getting your dogs to drink more water? Should I take her for her evening walk? Like I said, she isn't acting like she feels poorly, so I'm just not sure what my level of worry should be.  It's pretty high right now!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lexiz said:


> The vet said that she didn't think that a blockage was likely, because Vessie isn't bloated at all and she hasn't vomited at all either. She said that she thought it was something more like colon spasms.


 Yes, the lack of vomiting does seem to make a blockage unlikely. If I was home, I would look up "straining to poop" in my home veterinary guide. I know that I have seen this symptom for some stuff. 

It used to be typical protocol to forgo all food for 24 hours when a dog had diarrhea. Then to restart a bland diet -- boiled hamburger or chicken and brown rice for a couple of days and then slowly reintroduce the regular diet. The idea is to give the digestive system a break. 

Pumpkin, canned, also helps the digestive tract, both for constipation and for diarrhea.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If I have a dog that is ill, with something that may be contagious, then I don't take them for walks.


----------



## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

When Jonas was like that he had perennial Fistula. Did the vet check her for that?


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I just had my husband check her, and he said that when he pulled up her scruff, it fell back down immediately. He also said that her nose is dry, but cold.

I worry about not giving her food because she has lost a couple pounds in the last week.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Loneforce said:


> When Jonas was like that he had perennial Fistula. Did the vet check her for that?


I do know what that is, but I'm not sure how the vet would check for it. Basically she took Vesper's temperature and prodded around her stomach a bit. She also put her finger up her anus.


----------



## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

lexiz said:


> I do know what that is, but I'm not sure how the vet would check for it. Basically she took Vesper's temperature and prodded around her stomach a bit. She also put her finger up her anus.


The vet should of been able to tell by putting finger in the anus. Unless its deeper then that. Make sure there is no blood in the stool. I wouldn't of even mentioned it, but that is how Jonas was.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I have a photo of her most recent bout of diarrhea, if you all want to see it? I haven't seen any blood.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Well when Apollo got the icky poop I took him in immediately(like by the second round of poop) because it wasn't normal for him. The first thing they did was an xray and he did have something there but they couldn't determjne what. I knew it was a piece of bone that he didn't chew. They kept him for observation while I went to work. Another xray after it was still there. They requested him back the next day while I was at work just in case. They might have done the barium test--I can't remember. They were waiting to see if he could suggest it. Third xray and it was gone(huge relief)


So in your case I would be requested xrays o see if there is a thing in there. Apollo showed no other signs except icky poop. He ate, he played, he drank without issue. Not all dogs exhibit all the signs and shame on your vet for not ruling out any kind of blockage.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Here is her most recent stool. I have no idea what the little yellow chunks are. Undigested something? Like I said, she has absolutely no access to ingest anything that could harm her.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Well when Apollo got the icky poop I took him in immediately(like by the second round of poop) because it wasn't normal for him. The first thing they did was an xray and he did have something there but they couldn't determjne what. I knew it was a piece of bone that he didn't chew. They kept him for observation while I went to work. Another xray after it was still there. They requested him back the next day while I was at work just in case. They might have done the barium test--I can't remember. They were waiting to see if he could suggest it. Third xray and it was gone(huge relief)
> 
> 
> So in your case I would be requested xrays o see if there is a thing in there. Apollo showed no other signs except icky poop. He ate, he played, he drank without issue. Not all dogs exhibit all the signs and shame on your vet for not ruling out any kind of blockage.


Can any type of food item cause a blockage? I just can't think of anything that she has eaten that would cause a blockage.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok we have:
Straining
Some lethargy -- sleeping more than usual
Dry nose, but cold 
Diarrhea
Weight loss

In a year old pup. 

Did the vet give her some metranitazole (sp?)?

I think you need to know what the temperature is. 
I think you need to go back to the vet with a stool sample and some blood work. We need to put together a list of things to test for. 

EPI -- fasting (it may not be time to worry about this yet), SIBO, giardia, parasites/worms, coccidia, coronavirus, lepto?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Is she eating pieces of toys, or are you giving her raw hide?


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

selzer said:


> Ok we have:
> Straining
> Some lethargy -- sleeping more than usual
> Dry nose, but cold
> ...


Vet prescribed metronidazole (500 mg) and loperamide HCl (2 mg). 

I am most likely going to take her back tomorrow.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

selzer said:


> Is she eating pieces of toys, or are you giving her raw hide?



She doesn't get raw hide bones, but she does have some toys that she tears apart. When I noticed that they're coming apart, I throw them away.


----------



## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

lexiz said:


> She doesn't get raw hide bones, but she does have some toys that she tears apart. When I noticed that they're coming apart, I throw them away.


Are any of them yellow? If she has a blockage. You do not want to wait to long.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good on no rawhide and throwing toys away when she starts destroying them. 

That stuff should calm the system and improve the problem, if it isn't I would call tomorrow, and explain exactly what is going on with her, and ask if there is something more we can test for. Tell them that she is sleeping more than usual, losing weight, etc., if you can take her temperature, do so, check her gums for good refill, and her neck for dehydration before you call in the morning so you have as much information as possible. Tell them you are concerned about drinking.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I find pieces of toys in my goldens poop. I never see him do it but I always find out later when I'm picking up poop. 



I'm sure some toys can cause issues becsuse they can't be digested.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I'm gonna see how she is doing after tonight, and if there is no improvement, I will call in the morning with as much info as possible. The worst feeling is having a sick dog...


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Call the trainer. Have the trainer call the person whose dog had diarrhea and find out how that dog it.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Since we see there is something in her poop I would have an xray done. Tricky part is that not all objects are visible on xray, that is why the barium is done--they can see if anything is able to pass. Then I would move on to blood work.

Finding out what the other dog had is a good idea, but some dogs get loose stool in environments that stress or excite them, I call them nervous poopers!

I would normally suggest a stool sample first but the poop looks like something was eaten.


----------



## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

If it was said I am sorry. What food do you normally feed her? You can't rule that out either.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Are you able to tell what is in the poop? Can you seperate it (gross I know) and see if it's an hard object or plastic? I've done my share of poop seperation--welcome to the world of poop!


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

We feed Taste of the Wild Buffalo formula. I will try to get in touch with the trainer as well.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

After further thought, I have realized that the only toy that I thought could be the culprit was not available to her until Wednesday evening, after the diarrhea had already started. So I don't think she has a blockage from a toy. Also, what is the incubation time for most contagious intestinal bugs? She started having diarrhea about 24 hours after her obedience class.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Another thought, I tried to start her with coconut oil supplements last week, but she didn't really like them so I stopped. It was extra virgin organic coconut oil. She has not had any coconut oil since Sunday evening, and she never got loose stools when she would eat it. It seems unlikely, but could that be a contributor??


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It's possible.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Any treats from Walmart would be suspect imop. I know a sick pup can be be worrisome, hopefully this passes soon.


----------



## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

lexiz said:


> The vet said that if she hasn't improved by Monday to bring in a stool sample. I'm just worried about her getting dehydrated. We have been trying to get her to drink and adding extra water to her small meals, but she hasn't been drinking a lot. I have also been giving her ice cubes. Any ideas for getting her to drink more water?


Over a week later and _then_ the vet wants a stool sample? If either of our dogs (young and senior) has diarrhea for more than 24/36 hours, we bring in a sample---our vet charges @$25 to do a basic check and will call us with abnormality, if no other symptoms are presenting, will put on bland diet and rarely gives the med to stop until after testing (with no charge for a visit as it is just a sample---if she calls with prognosis of diarrhea, we go in and see her---Leo's first poop drop off when we got him showed worms---and meds followed). We have gone to 2 other vet hospitals/practices and this seems to be the normal practice--drop poop off, pay, they check and call back with prognosis (each vet practice has called either way, to say A-OK or come on in and we'll prescribe/check closer---poop drop off and diagnosis ranged from $20-35ish).

side note: Our dogs love ice water and even adding warm water to bland diet to make a stew adds to H2O intake..

Hope your pup feels better soon :-(


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Non-Dog people must think we are all NUTS since we talk about POOP so much AND show pictures of it! LOL 

Seriously though, I hope your girl is better tonite!

Depending on what you decide to do, the bland diet Selzer mentioned would be a good idea for several days, then slowly add your kibble back in.
Make sure you rinse the grease off of the meat a few times before using.

Is this possibly a new bag of food since this issue started?

Nigel is right about Walmart!

Just FYI a lot (not all) of the treats in the big box stores like Walmart, Kmart, Costco etc come from China so I wouldn't buy any flavor of those non-brand name treats. Even if they say "Made In The USA" does not mean the ingredients are SOURCED from the USA. Stick with brands you know.

High value homemade treats are really easy to make!
Purchase an inexpensive cut of steak or pork chops, cut off all the fat, remove bone, heat a non stick fry pan (with a little Pam sprayed on it) and throw in the pieces. Braise them on both sides, remove from heat and cool. Then, with scissors, cut them up small (about the size of a dime), put them in Zip Loc baggies and freeze! Takes a little time but you'll get more bang for your buck and the dogs go crazy for them! 

Goats milk or low sodium chicken or beef broth is my go to if my dogs are sick. You can mix in some water to get more fluid into them.

Moms


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Update: Vesper just pooped again and it was straight liquid. I moved it around and there was nothing in it that seemed foreign, just some food that hadn't been digested. It smelled exactly like her canned food, so she basically didn't digest it at all. I gathered it into a bag, so tomorrow morning it's back to the vet we go. 

She has been drinking water with some low sodium organic chicken broth mixed in, and her spirits seem high this evening. This whole thing is extremely puzzling and frustrating. I'm worried about my girl.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

lexiz said:


> Update: Vesper just pooped again and it was straight liquid. I moved it around and there was nothing in it that seemed foreign, just some food that hadn't been digested. It smelled exactly like her canned food, so she basically didn't digest it at all. I gathered it into a bag, so tomorrow morning it's back to the vet we go.
> 
> She has been drinking water with some low sodium organic chicken broth mixed in, and her spirits seem high this evening. This whole thing is extremely puzzling and frustrating. I'm worried about my girl.


The positive I see is that she is in good spirits. Hopefully the vet finds nothing. And with holding food for 24 hours then the bland diet will correct the problem. My dog had a bout of diarrhea for 3 days when he was younger. Vet found nothing so that is what I done. Rice chicken and pumpkin. Then I switched his food to fromm. He has been good ever since. Good luck.


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Just a comment about the antibiotics (metronidazole), I've had a GSD with a sensitive stomach, anytime I'd have to give him antibiotics, I saw the same liquid poop you have currently. The bland diet should help calm her gut, but I might also ask your vet if you can get some probiotics to help balance out the good bacteria, or maybe try some plain yoghurt. Hopefully it will pass quickly and all will be well.


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Sorry, I just noticed your original packet of meds from the vet included probiotic powder...and just to mention, I feel your concern, it is really scary - there were many times when I'd be out with the dog watching for the poop to come out, fingers crossed that it would be normal.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

lexiz said:


> Update: Vesper just pooped again and it was straight liquid. I moved it around and there was nothing in it that seemed foreign, just some food that hadn't been digested. It smelled exactly like her canned food, so she basically didn't digest it at all. I gathered it into a bag, so tomorrow morning it's back to the vet we go.
> 
> She has been drinking water with some low sodium organic chicken broth mixed in, and her spirits seem high this evening. This whole thing is extremely puzzling and frustrating. I'm worried about my girl.


I'm still going with some kind of blockage. Midnite had to have metro(Giardia), but his poop was never straight liquid, just pudding. Pancreatis is a thought, but when one of mine had that issue, he was vomiting undigested food and poop was icky with mucous, but not liquid. Apollo with the temporary blockage was straight water. 

Make sure the dog stays hydrated until you get back to the vet. The thing I don't like is that there are some occasions when you do and don't want to stop the liquid poop. It's their bodies way of getting bad stuff out. Giving a dog medicine without any stool samples, blood work or xrays just doesn't seem right IMO.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

LittleBear said:


> - there were many times when I'd be out with the dog watching for the poop to come out, fingers crossed that it would be normal.


This is just sad, but I've been right there with you. Many nights standing there ready to scoop and closing my eyes chanting please be solid please be solid


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Yes, I much prefer to be able to scoop something than the "get the garden hose again and spray it down"! I agree with you - with the amount of mucus in the stool pic, bowel obstruction is very possible. Luckily I've never had that problem, and truly hope that is not the case here...fingers and paws crossed.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Another update: more diarrhea. This looked more like pudding. She is definitely tired now, but it's her bedtime so I'm thinking that's pretty normal. I have my baggy of poop ready to go. Trying to keep her hydrated, and I think she's doing okay with that. Her skin is rebounding well and her nose has been moist and cold. Don't think I'll be getting much sleep tonight.... Praying that she will be okay.

Edit: I have noticed that I can hear her stomach making gurgling noises every now and then. Also, I gently massaged her stomach and she didn't seem to mind that at all. It actually seemed to soothe her. Thoughts??


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Latest poop after I spread it out a bit to look through it








[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Well that seems to be going in the right direction, is the gurgling higher up or lower belly? That's not uncommon when the digestive system is upset or inflamed. When was the last bowel movement?

The last one since this one?


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

lexiz said:


> [/URL][/IMG]
> 
> Latest poop after I spread it out a bit to look through it.


Picture did not come through


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

lexiz said:


> Another update: more diarrhea. This looked more like pudding. She is definitely tired now, but it's her bedtime so I'm thinking that's pretty normal. I have my baggy of poop ready to go. Trying to keep her hydrated, and I think she's doing okay with that. Her skin is rebounding well and her nose has been moist and cold. Don't think I'll be getting much sleep tonight.... Praying that she will be okay.
> 
> Edit: I have noticed that I can hear her stomach making gurgling noises every now and then. Also, I gently massaged her stomach and she didn't seem to mind that at all. It actually seemed to soothe her. Thoughts??


"While many types of stomach gurgling are perfectly normal, loud intestinal sounds may be a cause for concern because they can be a sign of a more serious gastrointestinal issue. According to Dr. Barrack, your dog's stomach may make these types of loud noises because he has eaten something inappropriate or perhaps simply because you have changed his diet in some way.

"If the loud stomach noises are accompanied by listlessness, constipation, diarrhea or vomiting," Dr. Barrack suggests that you "withhold food and water and take your pet to the veterinarian as soon as possible." Once there, your vet will examine your dog and likely take X-rays. If these X-rays show that your pet has ingested a foreign object, "surgery may be needed to prevent intestinal blockage and remove the item," says Dr. Barrack."


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I only have my phone right now and can't get the picture to work. :/ It's in the lower belly I think, and it's relatively loud. Loud enough that my husband could hear from where he was sitting across the room.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I have noticed that she has diarrhea a lot more in the evening and the morning. She will usually defecate a few times in the morning, and the same for the evening. Then she doesn't go all day long.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

lexiz said:


> I only have my phone right now and can't get the picture to work. :/ It's in the lower belly I think, and it's relatively loud. Loud enough that my husband could hear from where he was sitting across the room.


Are you sure you want to wait until tomorrow? Is there an ER vet you can go to? At this point that is what I would do, because you need to have peace of mind and she needs to be looked at. I hope it's just a stomach bug. Maybe call an ER vet to see what they say?


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Right now, since she still seems okay as far as her spirits go, I will wait until tomorrow. The ER vet bills would be hard for us to pay. I plan to run her in as soon as they open at 8 AM.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Just called the emergency vet. She said she doesn't think that it sounds like a bowel obstruction, but that I should take a stool sample in to my regular vet in the morning. I asked if I should bring her in tonight, but she said she thinks that it's okay to wait, and that the diarrhea can sometimes take a while to subside even after the drugs are administered. 

Decided to bite the bullet with the vet fees, but she said that she thinks I don't need to have an ER visit.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

lexiz said:


> Just called the emergency vet. She said she doesn't think that it sounds like a bowel obstruction, but that I should take a stool sample in to my regular vet in the morning. I asked if I should bring her in tonight, but she said she thinks that it's okay to wait, and that the diarrhea can sometimes take a while to subside even after the drugs are administered.
> 
> Decided to bite the bullet with the vet fees, but she said that she thinks I don't need to have an ER visit.


I'm glad that you got an answer and called. Just keep an eye on her tonite and try to get some rest.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Hi all -- Rarely post on here anymore but I know lots about dogs and digestive issues so thought I'd chime in. This definitely does not sound like a blockage. I am not sure where that idea came from but that wouldn't even be on my list. 

I would suspect the treats and then things got irritated because her system wasn't given a rest. Did you ever fast her? Usually the protocol is to just do liquids for 24 hours and then start on a bland diet. I thought the chunks in her poop were from the rice. You need to add twice as much water and cook the rice for twice as long. Otherwise, it's difficult to digest. When I do a bland diet I use good quality cooked chicken with the overcooked rice and I also add a little plain canned pumpkin. I feed that in smaller meals until poops start to firm up and then gradually transition to regular food. 

Metro can definitely give diarrhea -- it doesn't work for all dogs. I would give slippery elm and alternate that with activated charcoal. The activated charcoal with absorb any toxins and also help firm up the poop. It will also turn it black so don't be alarmed by that. The slippery elm helps calm the gut and also has some nutritive functions. My goto for digestive issues is a homeopathic remedy for animals called Digestive Upsets. It's made by Homeopet. I always keep a bottle handy. 

Good luck and try not to worry too much!


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Just adding this: "A few of the commonly noted side effects of Metronidazole for dogs and cats are neurologastro-intestinal disorder, lethargy, weakness, neutropenias, hepatoxicity, and hematuria. Cases of anorexia, nausea, excessive salivation, gagging, regurgitation and diarrhea are also reported." So, some of the symptoms you are seeing could now be from the Metro! I know it works great for some dogs and not great for others. When I used to use it for my first gsd it worked quickly and like a charm but I had another dog who couldn't handle it at all.


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Yes, I'm glad you got in touch with a vet too, my past experience with the gurgling gut was that it was just gas, more of it because the tummy was upset, but nothing compares with a proper vet opinion  hope all goes well tomorrow.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> Hi all -- Rarely post on here anymore but I know lots about dogs and digestive issues so thought I'd chime in. This definitely does not sound like a blockage. I am not sure where that idea came from but that wouldn't even be on my list.
> 
> I would suspect the treats and then things got irritated because her system wasn't given a rest. Did you ever fast her? Usually the protocol is to just do liquids for 24 hours and then start on a bland diet. I thought the chunks in her poop were from the rice. You need to add twice as much water and cook the rice for twice as long. Otherwise, it's difficult to digest. When I do a bland diet I use good quality cooked chicken with the overcooked rice and I also add a little plain canned pumpkin. I feed that in smaller meals until poops start to firm up and then gradually transition to regular food.
> 
> ...


Just to clear it up. My dog did have a partial blockage which cleared up on its own after a couple days at the vet and the symptoms were the same with the poop(I can't say how the poop changed because he was at the vet for observation almost immediately after his liquid poop started) and there looks to be something in the poop from the picture the OP posted--looks like a hard piece of plastic something. Of course it's just a picture so one can't say for sure. 

The thing is that when you talk to a vet or call them chances are they will ask if there is a chance the dog ate anything, if the owner says no, the vet will most likely go in another direction. My answer to the vet on these occasion is anything is possible because the truth is even a dog that never eats anything can one day decide to do just that. 

I do agree that metro doesn't work on all dogs, but it shouldn't be given to dogs without some kind of diagnostic testing--a stool sample for example. I don't think I've ever met a vet that won't at least do a stool sample first and maybe even blood work to get to a diagnosis on the dog. That is not a good practice, especially if the dog has never had that particular issue. As an owner I would prefer to find out what the dog is being treated for if possible and treat accordingly, a stool sample and/or bloodwork can help with that.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Thank you for your responses. No we didn't fast her, I didn't know that was proper protocol when this all started and the vet didn't mention it. Ugh. Vessie is usually so healthy, I haven't had to worry about sickness! I'm going to take her stool sample in this morning. In the meantime, how do I get her to take her pills if she is fasting? She usually will only take pills in cheese, and the metro pills are kind of large. 

Another thing, I think so chunks were also rice, that were possible stained with bile. As bile gets digested, it turns yellow, then becomes the substance that makes the poop brown. Her poop has been slightly yellow, which makes sense because her food isn't staying in her digestive tract long enough, so neither is the bile. 

I'm going to start her on a liquids fast this morning and see how she does with that. Thanks everyone. You have all been so helpful. I will keep you updated throughout the day.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Also, I forgot to mention that she didn't poop during the night. I took her out anyway, just in case, and she only peed. Then she hasn't pooped this morning yet either. I'm hoping things are slowing down a little bit in there.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Update: more diarrhea


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

(assuming no other medical issue found) - I would fast at least 24 hours before I started anything....and that anything would just be chicken and twice boiled (mushy) rice or well rinsed beef. I would feed that until you have solid poop, then I would start slowly (over a few days at least) start reintroducing her food in with the chicken rice. I go slow ... as in 1/4 cup of food to the chicken/rice, then 1/2 cup, then I usually do half and half with rice (I normally don't put chicken in any more, but usually still have leftover rice) for another day or so .... then if I still have rice, I do 1/4 cup rice in with the food. Yeahhh ... I'm scared of reoccurring diarrhea.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

When Bash had giardia, the vet gave him metronidazole. He went from pudding poop to liquid poop almost immediately. As someone else mentioned, perhaps the metro is what's causing the liquid poop. As for what caused the diarrhea in the first place, my guess is always giardia (I seriously wonder if I have giardia-related PTSD). I had a horrible time getting rid of it with Bash and now his GI system is completely screwed up. Catch it early! Treat with panacur! Poop problems suck. I hope Vesper gets better soon!


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Thanks, everyone!

Just dropped off the sample at the vet's office. They're supposed to call back with results "before noon for sure," so we will see!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Did you vet run a cbc to see if she had an intestinal bacterial infection?


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

No, I think blood work is the next step if the fecal test doesn't show anything. My vet hasn't seemed very concerned about it at all, which frustrates me. Usually I really like how she handles Vesper.


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

lexiz said:


> No, I think blood work is the next step if the fecal test doesn't show anything. My vet hasn't seemed very concerned about it at all, which frustrates me. Usually I really like how she handles Vesper.


Lexiz, Make sure that the vet knows you want an ELISA run (not just a regular fecal) for the Giardia:
https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/sects/Paras/tests/giardia.cfm

Moms


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Oh well I didn't know that and I didn't tell them when I dropped it off.  Can I call them back and ask for one?


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

lexiz said:


> Oh well I didn't know that and I didn't tell them when I dropped it off.  Can I call them back and ask for one?


Absolutely!

Insist on it!

Moms


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Great! I will do that ASAP.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lexiz said:


> No, I think blood work is the next step if the fecal test doesn't show anything. My vet hasn't seemed very concerned about it at all, which frustrates me. Usually I really like how she handles Vesper.


This is crazy. One vet trip should have included a fecal and a cbc. My vet did that for our dog with the exact same symptoms. Infection will show in a cbc.

And did you contact the trainer to find out about the other dog that was sick?  That would be useful info too.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Jax, I don't think that the trainer likes me or Vesper very much, and I honestly have no idea why. I would hate for her to kick us out of the class if Vesper is sick, even if it's not contagious.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lexiz said:


> Jax, I don't think that the trainer likes me or Vesper very much, and I honestly have no idea why. I would hate for her to kick us out of the class if Vesper is sick, even if it's not contagious.


Wow. So the other dog came in sick, potentially made yours sick, and she would toss you? That's crazy!


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

She honestly would. She mentioned a bunch of times that the other dog was just nervous and no one should worry about it. She ignores Vesper and I in the class, which doesn't really bug me. Ves knows all of the commands, we are there to work on socialization and to practice obedience with a lot of distractions. Another red flag, the dog was newly adopted. So he could potentially have health problems that they haven't discovered yet. All of the dogs in the class must be vaccinated, but he could have something else...


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

However, the training assistant is really nice and does extremely well with Vesper.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Update: no parasites in the fecal tests. They did test for giardia as well. She just had her blood drawn and we are waiting on those results right now. Vet is giving us a digestive enzyme to take home too.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Update: blood work came back totally normal. I saw the results and everything looked good. Her medication could be causing the diarrhea as well. If things haven't cleared up by Monday, we are supposed to bring her back in for x-rays. Vet said that she really doesn't think that it's a blockage. I can't think of anything that she could have eaten that would cause a blockage, so I don't think it is either. Vesper's spirits are still high, and isn't showing signs of dehydration. So that's good! Hoping this will resolve itself soon...

On a good note, Vesper did a great job when they took her blood. They had to try a bunch of times, because she has "rolling veins." She held completely still and was awesome. I was proud of her.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, I would call the vet back, tomorrow if need be, and ask about the Metro maybe causing more liquid poop, if there is something else you can switch her too. If she has been doing this since Monday, than I don't like having her wait until Monday, bombarding her with a medication that is making her sick. If that is what it is. 

Glad you got the fecal done and the bloodwork. That rules out stuff that if it was, we should have been addressing before Monday. Good. 

It could have been stress, colitis, changing the back of dog food, or those treats from WalMart. BowWow had good advice about pumpkin and slippery elm, and all the stuff about Metro. GSDs systems tend to be touchy. I use Metro when my dogs have a bout of diarrhea and it usually does work. But hearing about dogs that have problems with it, that sound a lot like what you are seeing is good info.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I asked the vet, and she said since she has already started the antibiotics that she needs to finish them. I have noticed that her poop is less liquid and more like pudding now, so that's better, at least. I'm hoping that the digestive enzymes will help also.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So fecal comes back negative and blood work is normal, but you are to keep giving antiobiotics? What is the reason to keep giving antibiotics if the results came back with nothing that would require antibiotics? I'm just trying to figure out how or what the vet is thinking.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

She said that since the stool sample was obtained after her first dose of antibiotics, it's possible that the bacteria wouldn't show in the test, so she wants to be on the safe side. She also said that Vesper could have bacterial overgrowth in her colon, and that would help bring it down.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

lexiz said:


> She said that since the stool sample was obtained after her first dose of antibiotics, it's possible that the bacteria wouldn't show in the test, so she wants to be on the safe side. She also said that Vesper could have bacterial overgrowth in her colon, and that would help bring it down.


Got it.


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

I'm happy to hear you were able to get some good tests results back today! my old boy had slippery veins too, although he handled it like a champ, it was painful for me to watch them try and collect blood  glad Vesper was good about it too! As far as pills in cheese, I'd say it's not enough cheese to affect her, even if you are trying to do a fast for 24 hours. Those meds are definitely huge, as you said! I actually trained my first GSD to "open" his mouth to accept a pill...I'd hold the pill in my left hand between thumb and forefinger, and with my right, I'd gently place thumb and either forefinger or third finger on either side on top of his muzzle, (kind of like when the vet checks their teeth) I'd say open, and pull top part gently up, then pop the pill in toward the back of the tongue, close his mouth, nose pointing up, and lightly rub his throat to get a swallowing affect. We got so good at the open command, I didn't have to do much but pop the pill in, he did the rest!

You can maybe google pilling a dog, there should be videos that show it better than I can explain it. Just in case you can't use bribery/hidden pill technique  Incidentally...same open mouth technique for a cat, but way harder to execute successfully l:crazy:


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

LittleBear said:


> I'm happy to hear you were able to get some good tests results back today! my old boy had slippery veins too, although he handled it like a champ, it was painful for me to watch them try and collect blood  glad Vesper was good about it too! As far as pills in cheese, I'd say it's not enough cheese to affect her, even if you are trying to do a fast for 24 hours. Those meds are definitely huge, as you said! I actually trained my first GSD to "open" his mouth to accept a pill...I'd hold the pill in my left hand between thumb and forefinger, and with my right, I'd gently place thumb and either forefinger or third finger on either side on top of his muzzle, (kind of like when the vet checks their teeth) I'd say open, and pull top part gently up, then pop the pill in toward the back of the tongue, close his mouth, nose pointing up, and lightly rub his throat to get a swallowing affect. We got so good at the open command, I didn't have to do much but pop the pill in, he did the rest!
> 
> You can maybe google pilling a dog, there should be videos that show it better than I can explain it. Just in case you can't use bribery/hidden pill technique  Incidentally...same open mouth technique for a cat, but way harder to execute successfully l:crazy:


Thanks for the tips!  yes, I was sad watching them try to collect blood, but she didn't cry or squirm at all. She handled it much better than I would have in her place, ha. So far the little cheese cubes are working, but if she gets picky, which she sometimes does, I'll definitely try the "open" command! Thank you!


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

You're welcome! Also, I never needed to for the dog, but putting a bit of butter or margarine on the pill first helps it go down a bit smoother...


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Good to know.  does anyone know where I can get some slippery elm? Does it matter what form I give it to her in? Pills?


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

I'm in Calgary, Canada, I can find it in any health food store, it's a human grade supplement, I liked the powder in the dissolvable caps, just pull it apart and add it to food. Or give in cheese


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Great! I'll head there soon.  I'm pretty sure cheese just makes everything better.


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

lexiz said:


> Great! I'll head there soon.  I'm pretty sure cheese just makes everything better.


Haha, yes it sure does! There may be other forms of slippery elm bark out there (liquid?), not sure, but you'll see what they have. I did see a recent previous post about dosage, if I find it again, I'll link it to you on your thread.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Thank you so much for your help! Dosage info would be awesome.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Here's some slippery elm info, along with recommended dosages. 

How To Stop Your Dog's Diarrhea Fast - Dogs Naturally Magazine

The Soothing Qualities of Slippery Elm - Dogs Naturally Magazine


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Thank you GypsyGhost! I found a thread here in holistic/homeopathic practices but couldn't coordinate the link! the direct source is much better!...I'm a bit technology challenged lol


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So this is what I do for my dogs. 

I give Slippery elm 30-45 minutes prior to the meal and antibiotic. You can give have the dose listed on the bottle. That does is based on a 150# person. Make sure to give it 30-45 minutes prior to the abx! It does an excellent job of coating the intestines and can stop the abx from absorbing into into her system properly.

I make them a batch of rice (boiled in 2x the water), chicken or drained hamburger and ginger.

2 hours after the abx, give a probiotic. I like Jarrows Petdophilus (you'll have to order it most likely). It has probiotics specific to dogs in it. You need to boost the good bacteria while killing off the bad. Problem is the abx doesn't know good from bad so you have to keep adding them back in.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

How much pumpkin should I give her???


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Update: Vesper just pooped and it kind of had some form! It was definitely still diarrhea and soft, but it didn't come out in a big puddle. Hoping that she is on the upward swing of things. I gave her 1.5 tablespoons of pumpkin mixed with some broth and water. She ate it right up. That's the amount I found online so I went with that.  

Still no signs of dehydration or pain.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sounds like you have some progress.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Yay! I remember when Bash finally had a solid poop, I seriously considered taking a picture and framing it. Because that is how crazy constant diarrhea will make a person. 

Fingers crossed that this means things are turning around for good! Oh, and I usually do 1-2 tablespoons of pumpkin, so you were right on target there.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

selzer said:


> Sounds like you have some progress.


That's what I am sincerely hoping! Vesper has been generally healthy for the entire time we have had her, and I definitely took that for granted. Having her sick has been a nightmare. I honestly haven't been able to do anything but worry.


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Whenever I've added pumpkin, it's been a rounded tablespoon to maybe two, I don't think you need much, maybe others have another opinion. That said, you've potentially got a lot going on: meds, probiotics, digestive enzymes, slippery elm bark, and pumpkin. While pumpkin won't hurt, her tummy is still settling, so I'd just be aware there's quite a lot of extras -the goal is to get back to normal


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Yes I'm trying to spread things out and still give bland meals. It's definitely been a trick. I think she is feeling a little better.


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Yay! A semi-formed poop deserves the poop dance  you all who have patiently watched for the poop know exactly what I'm talking about...glad it's going in the right direction!


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

We have about an acre of grass and I have been following her all around with my flashlight.  I was so happy to see it come out even slightly formed! Finally! I'm sure her bum is sore from all that diarrhea. I'm sure she's so ready to feel better!


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Thought you all might want to see a photo of the happy girl at the vet today. This was even after she got her blood drawn. It's hard to dampen her spirits! :wub:








[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

She's lovely Lexi, if I didn't know better, I'd say she's a littermate of Phoenix's...very similar coloring and markings


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

LittleBear said:


> She's lovely Lexi, if I didn't know better, I'd say she's a littermate of Phoenix's...very similar coloring and markings


I just read your intro post!  Phoenix is such a unique name, I love it! I'm always a fan of a unique name. Just ask Vesper.  She just turned a year old last month, so they are similar ages! You should post some photos of your guy. I would love to see his markings! Vesper's parents were both saddle backs, but she's definitely a blanket! 

Thank you for your sweet compliment of her! :wub:


----------



## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Thanks, I agonized a bit over the name, picked Phoenix...a story for another time. I thought Vesper was a very original name too  So, Phoenix wants to know how Vesper is doing today...








Hope things are almost back to normal.:thumbup:


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

He looks like such a sweet, big boy! Picking names is the hardest! We agonized over Vesper's name too. Luckily we had months to decide, because we were waiting for her since the breeder figured out that their female was pregnant.  

She seems to be doing well today! She hasn't popped again since last night. Hopefully that means her digestive system is slowing down and her colon isn't so agitated. She actually loves her bland food diet! I think it's helping a lot.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Just skimmed this thread, but hope this can be helpful, maybe in future. 

I simply can't afford to run a dog to the vet every time she has diarrhea. I am not in the veterinary field, but I have worked in the medical field and done my research. I've discovered most of the time a trip to the vet for diarrhea is a waste of money. 

If a dog has bad diarrhea, with no blood, or just a bit of blood, I'll fast him or her for 24 hours. I'll check her mucous membranes (lift up a lip and look at the gums, and look under the eyelid) to make sure they are moist and pink. 

I'll check for dehydration with a skin lift. 

If she is feeling a bit sick, well, so would I when I have stomach flu or stomach upset. That's OK. I don't expect a dog with a sick digestive tract to be completely normal in behavior. 

Loud stomach noises like popping and rumblings, that's OK, too. I've heard them across the house in dogs with diarrhea and stomach upset. People too, not to be gross but it's common if you have a digestive issue. I take that as a GOOD sign, honestly. It means there is no blockage, sure the belly is upset but I already knew that. Usually, it lasts a night, the dog skips breakfast, and he's fine by evening.

Here are reason for concern - I would not hesitate to run the dog to the vet if I saw these signs:

Pacing, failure to settle, any signs of bloating of the belly.

Excessive drooling.

Repetitive vomiting or dry heaving. 

Bits of toy or other object in stool or vomit.

Excessive blood in stool, or tar black stool with digested blood.

Stiff, still, preoccupied posture while lying down. Unable to relax.

Absence of bowel signs- this is cause for real concern. You can place your head against a dog's belly (or buy a cheap stethoscope) and hear the bubbling and popping of a healthy gut. If you don't hear anything, get to the vet. That is a good sign something is wrong, including intestinal blockage. 

Pale, dry mucous membranes. Positive test for dehydration.

This isn't a complete list, but it has saved me many trips to the vet for dog diarrhea. It happens, it's not uncommon, and it is usually harmless and best treated with simple fasting. Stop feeding whatever you suspect as the cause. 

I'll add, too, that if I suspect worms, I just worm the dogs. De-wormers are cheap online. You usually will see tapeworms in stool, if I see them, I treat with pyrantel pamoate. I buy a bottle of the stuff online for about $12 which has enough wormer to treat up to 100 dogs. If I suspect whip worm, or other worms I'll go with a broader spectrum wormer, (fenbendazole). All of which I buy online for much less than I'd pay for a vet visit plus their marked up price for meds. 

I will readily run a dog into the vet if I am at all concerned, but generally with diarrhea, it is a simple fix with vet bills not included. Each dog owner needs to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. 

Hope this may help ease your mind and know what to watch for if it happens again... diarrhea isn't uncommon in dogs. Some seem more prone to it than others. Just like people.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Thanks for the info! She has had diarrhea before. In this situation, it was the volume and frequency of the diarrhea that really concerned me. Luckily, since she is a year old it was probably time for a visit to the vet anyway.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Totally understand! Always go to the vet if you're concerned! Just hope this can help trouble shoot for any real serious signs.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Totally understand! Always go to the vet if you're concerned! Just hope this can help trouble shoot for any real serious signs.


Yes, thank you so much! I have learned a ton from this experience and I appreciate your help.


----------



## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Sorry I didn't read all the posts.
1st of all I would not give a dog with GI upset brown rice, the dog needs something bland and easy to digest - white rice or pasta.

My dog has had colitis, and the littlest stress can cause it. One time when Molly was about 1 or so our regular trainer thought he's try a new training spot. Even thought the same dogs were at training, changing the location caused 3 of the 12 dogs to have diarrhea. But I'm sure it didn't last all night like yours. I'm hoping you had a stool test done for parasite and stuff. We would notice the very small changes would give Molly colitis 2-3 days after the event. Like if I went out for a long time with my husband at night and left Molly home. (We are usually always with her).

We finally took Molly off kibble, it seemed to irritate her GI system on top of normal stressors. Once off kibble her colitis has been dramatically reduced to very tiny episodes, maybe a soft BM and a little straining one evening, but no messes in the house.

Here's a bland diet if you have more GI upsets:
Equal parts soft white rice or pasta with a protein (boiled ground beef, boiled chicken, or cottage cheese) add a little broth on top. Give small amounts a few times a day for a couple days.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I thought that I would post an update. Good news and bad news... Vesper's bowel movements have gotten completely better! Her stool is perfect. 

Bad news: Vesper has an ear infection so it's back to the vet for us today.  She has always been so healthy and now it seems like we can't stay out of the vet's office! Ugh!


----------

