# Handler aggression



## K9Kane (Jul 2, 2014)

Hello all. I am hoping to get advice from someone familiar with this type of situation dealing with this type of dog. A little background story regarding my dog to show how much of a handful he can be. His grandfathers/uncles have competed in the highest levels of Schutzhund, some are working for police departments, and one is currently a prison dog down in the south. 

At 9 months old, I got him neutered. When my vet was administering drugs to put him to sleep for the procedure, he would NOT go down. He gave him so many doses that wouldn't work, he actually resorted to having to use entirely different drugs, that are used for large zoo animals like lions. Not even an hour after this surgery, he was just making his way around my house like his normal self, as if nothing had happened. I actually had to crate him because I was concerned he'd over do himself.

Fast forward to today, and he's just turned two. Lovely dog, but I'm stumped on this problem I'm running into. He wears a prong collar, and if he gets out of line, or he doesn't do something I ask of him, I give him a firm pop with the prong collar. Firm enough, that most dogs would get the point. Not him, he'll just act like nothing happened, but when I went harder to gain his attention, he exploded.

He lunged up the end of the leash towards me, and I actually had to dodge out of the way, and he came at me again, and missed again. I managed to grab him by the neck and grab a hold of the leash with my other hand and contain him for a minute. Not even a minute after all of this, everything was fine. He was licking me and being his lovey dovey self like nothing happened. People have actually joked, that you could hit this dog over the head as hard as you could with a 2x4, then throw it and he'll still go run to grab it and bring it back to you. (Not that I EVER would, by the way, just a figure of speech.)

I don't wanna sweep this problem under the rug so to speak, but I'm "choosing my battles" if you will.

I know this sounds crazy, but I've heard of several cops owning dogs exactly like this. Just hoping someone here has had a similar experience.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

My first and probably correct guess is that you've unfairly corrected him multiple times and he's had enough


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It does sound like a strong dog responding to an unfair correction. 

Some dogs will take whatever you give them, and some will not. I suggest getting into training with someone who truly knows strong working dog mentality, and change not so much your correction but your leadership style, so that there isn't any confusion.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

First off, how your dog responded to anesthetics should not be confused with your dog being a hard dog that is pain intolerant or a dog that needs extra strong correction : )

What did your dog do to "get out of line" prior to the correction you gave him that led to him coming up the leash at you? Was it a "fair" correction, i.e. did the dog really understand what the desired for behavior was? I suspect there might have been some confusion there.

Without any additional info, I think you need to get a second pair of eyes on the situation, i.e. have a trainer come out to observe you and your dog. 

Also, if I were you, I would PM David Winners on this forum and ask to speak with him.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*First off, how your dog responded to anesthetics should not be confused with your dog being a hard dog that is pain intolerant or a dog that needs extra strong correction*
this
i am guessing they gave your dog ace and many dogs do not respond to it
they may have switched to something different but just because 'they use it in zoos' does not make it stronger 
they do meter the dose to fit the situation 

i am with the others here
unfair correction or at least unclear to your dog why it was being corrected

you may have missed some of the basics and that is why your dog is confused and reacting the way he is


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol since when does the dog get to decide what correction is fair or unfair. I would say drop the prong and go to the dominant dog collar on leerburg or an E Collar.

I would also train just about everything positively and go out of my way to minimize opportunities for misbehavior through management.

Some dogs respond well to a come to Jesus moment and some keep coming at you until they are dead.
There is a dog I know of that was worked on 2-3 lines in an attempt to achieve compliance as he would turn on his handler if pushed. He was hung numerous times and everytime he woke up from never never land he would again attack his handler. In the end he was kenneled and used for breeding. 
Personally I would have tried a more positive approach first but thats just me..


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

if a dog is confused then yes it can happen
you dont continue to reef away at the dog without making sure the dog actually understands what is being corrected for


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## K9Kane (Jul 2, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol since when does the dog get to decide what correction is fair or unfair. I would say drop the prong and go to the dominant dog collar on leerburg or an E Collar.
> 
> I would also train just about everything positively and go out of my way to minimize opportunities for misbehavior through management.
> 
> ...


I've heard stories like that. A guy I know that is a retired K9 handler said he had to do that to his dog before. But yeah, I was thinking about that dominant dog collar from leerburg. Just read about it recently, and it sounds ideal for the dogs that get aggressive. I actually bought an E-collar from there recently, and the "Remote Collar Training for Pet Owners" by Ed Frawley. Haven't used the collar yet,but I have been studying the DVD to be careful with it.


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## K9Kane (Jul 2, 2014)

What happened was was this:

He grabbed something he knew he was not supposed to and did not out on command, which he will do normally when told. I told him out to give him a chance to drop it, and he did not comply. And that's when the first pop with the prong collar came in.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Why not work with your dog instead of against him? I know it's not cool to suggest anything other than overpowering, but your brain and your relationship with your dog are the two most important training tools. clicky click--> Suzanne Clothier | Relationship Centered Dog Training


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The dog has pain elicited aggression. Its mostly a genetic thing but there are dogs out there that will lash out when in pain and if that works to eacape the pain it becomes an operant behavior and will get worse. 

It usually gets handled by fighting the dog and punishing them severely for coming up the leash. This is usually done when youre sure you can win. If youre not sure then it is generally a bad idea. It is also a very risky route to go.

E collar is probably your best option. It is a way less personal way to correct a dog and as such lessens the possibility the dog comes after you.

Ive seen dogs get so bad over time that two separate prong collars had to be used by two handlers. One to correct the dog and the other to prevent the dog from coming up the line at him.

Either way you go you have to deal with this before it gets worse. Id recommend seeing a professional with experience with this kind of thing.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol there is a dog here that gave his handler 22 stitches after he was corrected for not outing a ball. Personally I would teach the out with no conflict then move to the e collar for non compliance.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I dont care how they decide to train. All im saying is at some point you have to train the dog not to go up leash or find a way to not have a leash. Its a behavior that has to be fixed.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol there is a dog here that gave his handler 22 stitches after he was corrected for not outing a ball. Personally I would teach the out with no conflict then move to the e collar for non compliance.


:thumbup::thumbup:

Just a thought to store away....I have a dog (non-GSD) that has only gone up the leash when an e-collar was used. So use caution if you decided to utilize this meathod.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

I go with blitz on this one! 
I will correct a known command" but I train to learn to have fun" trust" love" key trust I could step on my dog he would just yelp" build the bond" nurture the love they really want the bond" never get angry if you get frustrated
Quit on a good note.
Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have a dog that can become aggressive. Pain elicited aggression? Perhaps. But, he pretty much does not vent toward me. Much less regard for tempering it toward others.

Interestingly, my vet was concerned that his level of aggression and potential arousal would affect the anesthetic choices and the way he responded to induction and awakening from anesthesia. We chose a different anesthetic plan than most for his surgical procedure. Everything went smoothly. It was more costly. So yes, the temperament and type of animal can affect veterinary approach and drug choices.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Some of the things I picked up which may/may not be helpful as I have one who could go that way....and would if it were not me on the other end of the lead giving a correction.........

(1) make sure the collar is fit properly....mine was one link too loose
(2) quick correct and release.......My timing was too slow on the release

It also seems like maybe you need to work on some relationship work, engagement?

I got a lot of help with outing from seasoned K9 officers. Rewarding with the toy for the out and now I give an alternate "sit" command with the expectation he drops it on the sit.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Why not work with your dog instead of against him? I know it's not cool to suggest anything other than overpowering, but your brain and your relationship with your dog are the two most important training tools. clicky click--> Suzanne Clothier | Relationship Centered Dog Training


this is great
you can keep on punishing your dog or you can start working with him
if what you are doing has not worked then do something different


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

A couple of things, dog will get more stronger as he gets to 3 yr old and he already shows response to a prong correction. So without knowing the handler aggression scale I would err on the side of caution. Meaning do not correct him in this manner unless you are prepared to win the resulting fight. Second, best to out smart him and teach him acceptable behavior while showing him a prong stim does not ONLY mean correction. You can reward a good behavior with a light level prong stim on release command (consistently).

I would also recommend to use a choke if there is a fight as a choke will bring the aggression level down instead of escalating it if a prong is used. So,

1. Set him up for success and reward with a light prong pop (consistently for a few months).
2. Keep a choke tab on him and if things get out of hand use choke to bring aggression down. Do not show any emotion, mechanical sequence of events followed by OB command.

Best to outsmart a dog that loves to fight. The other way is to fight harder but with certain dogs (that love to fight) it can go pretty extreme.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm I would follow the advise being given! And definitely lose the prong not a good relationship between that tool, this dog and you!

There is also this: 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/426322-selzer-sitting-dog-2.html

Post 19 has a link with additional details.

As has been said you need to do "something" differently!


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## K9Kane (Jul 2, 2014)

Thank you all for your input. 

I have found a trainer that has certified police dogs and although he is out of town (2 hours), he was generous and humble enough to talk to me on the phone for a good amount of time and consult with me about the problem. Hopefully when funds aren't an issue (downfall of being a broke college student) I will meet up with him.

Looks like the choke collar is what I'll be buying. There's just no way I'm going to be able to win a fight with this dog. If I had a full body bite suit, a hockey goalie helmet abd tranquilizer as backup, then I would maybe consider it lol.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Agreed*



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Why not work with your dog instead of against him? I know it's not cool to suggest anything other than overpowering, but your brain and your relationship with your dog are the two most important training tools. clicky click--> Suzanne Clothier | Relationship Centered Dog Training


I don't mind being rough with my dog. Neither does my trainer.

But once he reacted badly to the trainer's roughness and how he looked at us both afterwards for about a month. It was the same way a human would look at you if he didn't trust you or if he was scared of you and kind of from the side of the head and with reserve. It made me feel bad that he might not trust me.

So, I changed tacks and treated him with the utmost deference and tenderness for about three months. Sure, he got light corrections when he needed them. But they were well-deserved and always preceded with a verbal command / warning. 

He lost that mistrusting look and became a very good dog after that period. He's nearly two now and almost never needs a strong correction.

We did go to a prong collar ultimately, though, as he pulls without one. I'm sure the prong collar contributed to his willingness to obey, even though I almost never pop it on him.

Anyway, why don't you try a little tenderness, as the song lyrics go?

LF


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

longfisher excellent post!

*But once he reacted badly to the trainer's roughness and how he looked at us both afterwards for about a month. It was the same way a human would look at you if he didn't trust you or if he was scared of you and kind of from the side of the head and with reserve. It made me feel bad that he might not trust me.*

this is the problem with ever increasing shows of strength
sure you may win the battle but if you have to choke your dog and yank it around you are losing the war

to each his or her own i guess
if it is all about being the big man on campus or being the boss or the domiant one or whatever phrase you are using then choke and yank your dog

if you want a relationship with your dog examine honestly if you are even doing proper corrections at the proper time
if not then do things completely different
brains not brawn


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Samba said:


> I have a dog that can become aggressive. Pain elicited aggression? Perhaps. But, he pretty much does not vent toward me. Much less regard for tempering it toward others.
> 
> Interestingly, my vet was concerned that his level of aggression and potential arousal would affect the anesthetic choices and the way he responded to induction and awakening from anesthesia. We chose a different anesthetic plan than most for his surgical procedure. Everything went smoothly. It was more costly. So yes, the temperament and type of animal can affect veterinary approach and drug choices.


I also have a dog that carries aggression and she fights anesthesia as well. We were doing an ear hematoma repair and she would not go under as a normal dog would for this procedure. 
Ace doesn't affect her normally either, it just agitates her more.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Thanks Diesel*

I'll also add that my enjoyment of the dog went up considerably when he responded so positively to tenderness.

He's a real love-bunny now with me and my wife and Son and he can't seem to get enough of us. At the same time, he's not lost his protectiveness of us. Indeed, he probably became more caring of us when we switched on the nice stuff.

He never leaves the tile outside our closed bedroom door when we sleep. And, if he's outside he watches us through the windows looking for an excuse to come inside. But maybe the latter is because it's hot as all get out in Texas this time of year.

Another thing, we stopped everyone from even the slightest bit of teasing him. My son was pretty bad about it.

I don't allow anyone to and I don't ever blow in his face to cause him to snap, wrap him in a blanket to make him stumble around for our entertainment, blow in his ears which irritates all dogs, call him when I don't have a purpose, make him do tricks without rewards. I don't trick him with food to make him anxious, I don't try to fool him with a toy just to make him anxious and I don't withdraw a toy until he's showing signs of being bored with it just to show him who's boss.

Again, I want him to trust me, not distrust me. Remember,these dogs are incredibly smart and, as a result, are sensitive. I think they're as sensitive to betrayal as any human.

LF


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Yes longfisher that's how you get a dog like the one that lead the cop to save his master and burning house" love" not fear" nothing wrong with a correction done out of love" j.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## Kyndaara (Mar 3, 2014)

Can the OP and other person who commented about fighting anesthesia please post pedigree links for their dogs. Thanks.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There is a dog I know of that was worked on 2-3 lines in an attempt to achieve compliance as he would turn on his handler if pushed. He was hung numerous times and everytime he woke up from never never land he would again attack his handler. In the end he was kenneled and used for breeding.


Interesting method of selecting a sire.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Mister C said:


> Interesting method of selecting a sire.


Lol yeah I picked up on that too but figured this was a joke.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Kyndaara said:


> Can the OP and other person who commented about fighting anesthesia please post pedigree links for their dogs. Thanks.


My dog has no pedigree/papers. Am pet lines from the look of her and her parents, though the breeder claimed there was E.German in the mom....I don't believe it/she couldn't prove it.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Kyndaara said:


> Can the OP and other person who commented about fighting anesthesia please post pedigree links for their dogs. Thanks.


My younger dog fought anesthesia big time when we were getting his hips/elbows x-rayed. He got the initial IV and nothing, he got another IV, still nothing, some more but he kept standing all bowed up. Surgeon said he is fighting it and it was not safe to give him more IV, he then hooked him up to a breathing apparatus and gas anesthesia, finally Creasy went into a platz after about 30 minutes from first shot. Surgeons assistant kept on saying "he's got a big constitution". Anyways here is his pedigree,
Brimwylf Creasy


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I'd like to see some video. I'd guess either you are giving unfair/"angry" corrections or the dog is just an <potty mouth word>. Different approach depending on which is which


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That is what we ended up doing with Onyx, the gas was relaxing enough to put her in a twilight.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

The stuff they use at the local specialist... One shot and they go under in ~10 mins, another shot and they come to life in 20. Scary to watch. 

Katya had to have her tail taped down during her hip xray bc she wouldn't stop wagging it lol even when fully knocked out


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> That is what we ended up doing with Onyx, the gas was relaxing enough to put her in a twilight.


I was seriously sweating it when he went under! (bet you were too with Onyx. After the x-rays the surgeon gave him the revival shot and boom Creasy stood up sooner than he expected, I had to grab him! The assistant repeated over and over again "your dog has a big constitution" first time I heard the word constitution used in this context.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I was in the room holding the gas to her snout while the vet went to work on her. We were the only ones there as it was after hours. I'm not a fan of that reversal, but the vets seem to prefer it. 
I personally think when Onyx was spayed it didn't go well and ever since then she's been off the chart aggressive when going to the vet...before that she was fine being handled and given her puppy shots.
Now we just do whatever needed with her muzzled and a towel over her eyes, I hold her, while the tech draws blood or gives her shots. She'll never be a dog that desensitization will work(we tried it).


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> The stuff they use at the local specialist... One shot and they go under in ~10 mins, another shot and they come to life in 20. Scary to watch.
> 
> Katya had to have her tail taped down during her hip xray bc she wouldn't stop wagging it lol even when fully knocked out



That's so cute)))))


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I personally think when Onyx was spayed it didn't go well and ever since then she's been off the chart aggressive when going to the vet...before that she was fine being handled and given her puppy shots.


My dentist once told me that I seem to be immune to novocaine. The last time I needed a filling repaired, they needed to give me a second dose and wait twice as long as they do with their other patients before the numbness really kicked in.

Of course, what they didn’t know is that I have a deathly fear of dental procedures… I had a bad experience once. So, I still don’t know if my experience was do to my fear or, as they said, my physiology. Of course, fear would impact my physiology, so maybe it is both : )


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LifeofRiley said:


> My dentist once told me that I seem to be immune to novocaine. The last time I needed a filling repaired, they needed to give me a second dose and wait twice as long as they do with their other patients before the numbness really kicked in.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, what they didn’t know is that I have a deathly fear of dental procedures… I had a bad experience once. So, I still don’t know if my experience was do to my fear or, as they said, my physiology. Of course, fear would impact my physiology, so maybe it is both : )



Me too. I got 6 shots last time and still didn't do what I needed. I'm also very scared of dentists. But I'm not handler aggressive lololol


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

lalachka said:


> But I'm not handler aggressive lololol


Lol...I can be, however it would be labelled dentist aggressive, particularly if they refuse to believe that the I am still feeling pain and want to proceed with the procedure regardless of my input : ) Thankfully, I have found dentists who do take their customer's fear/discomfort seriously.

Anyway, the point of my earlier post was to suggest that I don't think Onyx Girl's hypothesis about her dog's reaction is off-base.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I was getting my wisdom teeth pulled and the(adult) girl in the next partitioned area was deathly afraid of getting an injection for the numbing. It was unsettling to me sitting there as I was waiting to get 4 teeth pulled to hear her pitching a fit over a jab in the gum. 
Though I understood her fear....I just put myself into another zone and try to block the whole fear thing! I hate dental procedures too, but know it has to be done. My dentist at the time had some anger management issues, I can see where it came from! He seemed to enjoy choking me as he wrenched on my tooth with one of his legs used as leverage on the chair. I was flailing because I couldn't breathe, but he kept that pressure on til the tooth popped out. Not kidding! 
Anesthesia will be my go to from now on. 
I now go to a different dentist after that torture.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I was getting my wisdom teeth pulled and the(adult) girl in the next partitioned area was deathly afraid of getting an injection for the numbing. It was unsettling to me sitting there as I was waiting to get 4 teeth pulled to hear her pitching a fit over a jab in the gum.
> Though I understood her fear....I just put myself into another zone and try to block the whole fear thing! I hate dental procedures too, but know it has to be done. My dentist at the time had some anger management issues, I can see where it came from! He seemed to enjoy choking me as he wrenched on my tooth with one of his legs used as leverage on the chair. I was flailing because I couldn't breathe, but he kept that pressure on til the tooth popped out. Not kidding!
> Anesthesia will be my go to from now on.
> I now go to a different dentist after that torture.


Wow, that is the almost the exact same "bad experience" I had... I was also experiencing a lot of pain through that procedure. And, during the filling repair story I mentioned earlier, the woman in the next room was loudly reciting rosary prayers prior to whatever she was having done... it didn't help my own unease... LOL!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> He was hung numerous times and everytime he woke up from never never land he would again attack his handler. In the end he was kenneled and used for breeding.



Why would you breed this ?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Why would you breed this ?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Like Lalachka, I thought he was joking. I am hoping we were correct in our assumption.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> Like Lalachka, I thought he was joking. I am hoping we were correct in our assumption.


I am kinda hoping this whole thread is a joke.  I can't imagine a dog coming up a leash at me and if he did, he wouldn't survive. That would be a PTS moment.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

imo it is natural for dogs to fight anesthesia
they dont feel right and so will try to do things to make themselves feel better


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

A German shepherd coming up the leash at its owner? I can't find that in Standard. Did I miss something?


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> imo it is natural for dogs to fight anesthesia
> they dont feel right and so will try to do things to make themselves feel better


I agree. :thumbup:


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I am kinda hoping this whole thread is a joke.  I can't imagine a dog coming up a leash at me and if he did, he wouldn't survive. *That would be a PTS moment.*


Re: the bolded part... well, I strongly disagree with that statement. I think context is key.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*I can't find that in Standard.*
i cant find 29" dogs in the standard either 
strange how that works


*I think context is key.*
exactly so lifeofriley


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> Re: the bolded part... well, I strongly disagree with that statement. I think context is key.


I can not think of context where my adult dog coming at me up a leash in defiance with teeth would be in any way acceptable.

That being said I have never used a prong or an e collar either.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I can not think of context where my adult dog coming at me up a leash in defiance with teeth would be in any way acceptable.
> 
> That being said I have never used a prong or an e collar either.


In my experience, dogs who have been reported to be aggressive, often are not at all aggressive in a different home. So, as I said, if I hear that a dog has gone up the leash, to me that is not an automatic PTS moment - which is the particular part of your earlier post that I objected to. Rather, it is a moment to take a close look at the situation and the relationship between the owner and dog to determine what has gone wrong... often, in these situations, it is an owner problem, not a dog problem.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Kyndaara said:


> Can the OP and other person who commented about fighting anesthesia please post pedigree links for their dogs. Thanks.


Why? Dogs of all shapes, sizes, and temperaments fight sedation. It is often the more anxious or hyper ones but I've had chihuahuas to mastiff size dogs (and lots of cats) fight it. Probably what most people are referring to in this thread for sedation used was dexdomitor( reversible) which I use multiple times a week and many times you really have to give them a good 10 minutes or so of being in a quiet dark room to get good sedation out of it and even then some are not as affected.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> In my experience, dogs who have been reported to be aggressive, often are not at all aggressive in a different home. So, as I said, if I hear that a dog has gone up the leash, to me that is not an automatic PTS moment - which is the particular part of your earlier post that I objected to. Rather, it is a moment to take a close look at the situation and the relationship between the owner and dog to determine what has gone wrong... often, in these situations, it is an owner problem, not a dog problem.


I will repeat what I said. If *my *dog came up a leash at *me* with aggression it would be PTS. I wasn't talking about some misc handler. A dog that has been beaten or abused was not in anyway part of the conversation. The people were all talking about their own dogs. I would hope that the people participating in this thread were all decent owners.


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## Kyndaara (Mar 3, 2014)

ugavet2012 said:


> Why? Dogs of all shapes, sizes, and temperaments fight sedation. It is often the more anxious or hyper ones but I've had chihuahuas to mastiff size dogs (and lots of cats) fight it. Probably what most people are referring to in this thread for sedation used was dexdomitor( reversible) which I use multiple times a week and many times you really have to give them a good 10 minutes or so of being in a quiet dark room to get good sedation out of it and even then some are not as affected.


Because I'm interested in knowing. Its also not a question of anxious and hyper in terms of hearing about this in certain types of GSDs.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*If my dog came up a leash at me with aggression it would be PTS*

sigh 
why would your _own dog _do this?
if _my_ dog did it i would assume he is quite ill or hurt 
i would hope you would do the same and take him to the vet to rule out a brain tumor or seizure disorder or a horrible injury in his neck


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> *If my dog came up a leash at me with aggression it would be PTS*
> 
> sigh
> why would your _own dog _do this?
> ...


:thumbup: if my dog, who has never shown aggression towards me in any way, suddenly came after me this would be my first reaction.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am traveling and limited with my phone.....Google bradshaw....dominant dog.....Tarheel k9.......he has a good article on dealing with the dominant dog.....

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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> *If my dog came up a leash at me with aggression it would be PTS*
> 
> sigh
> why would your _own dog _do this?
> ...


My dogs live in my house and are part of my family. If they had a horrible injury I would know it. As for the other two really? 

I've seen dogs snap. I grew up in a time, if that happened they were taken out back and shot. Sorry if that seems cold to you but if a dog snaps it doesn't belong in my house with my children. Now granted my children are grown but you get the idea. I love my dogs and would be devastated but that doesn't mean I wouldn't do it. 

You kids today don't have the stomach to do what is right and that's unfortunate. Hubby and I put stitches into a dog when he ripped himself open on a holiday weekend. (There were no e-vets back then). We have also put dogs down rather than waiting and making them suffer until Monday when there was an open vet. Its hard, its not pretty and would I prefer a vet absolutely. But I also do what is right for my animals.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Please take this back and forth on PTS or not to a new thread so that when the OP comes back, they can find information pertaining to their question and not random feelings.

Thanks -
Jean
admin
*


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

K9Kane said:


> Fast forward to today, and he's just turned two. Lovely dog, but I'm stumped on this problem I'm running into. He wears a prong collar, and if he gets out of line, or he doesn't do something I ask of him, I give him a firm pop with the prong collar.





Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I would also train just about everything positively and go out of my way to minimize opportunities for misbehavior through management.


I'm with Blitzkrieg here. One thing you haven't mentioned is how you've trained him up to this point. Is he always wearing the prong collar? How frequently does he "get out of line" or not do something you've asked him to do. Has any of his training been motivational, using food and/or toys as a reward, or has it all been correction based?

I'm not opposed to compulsion, when I tell my dogs to do something I expect them to do it. I'm not opposed to prong collars, I have them and use them, but only for walks. I start out when my dogs are puppies doing almost all of their training off leash around the house (obviously I use a leash in public, for safety). I may have a drag leash on at home that I can step on if necessary, but most of the time not. That means I have to figure out how to motivate the puppy to stay with me and not wander off, and to WANT to work with me. 

That early foundation training establishes the kind of relationship I want - a working partnership, not an adversarial one. Later I can add the "have to", but only after the "want to" is very strong. I do lots of "capturing" behaviors, just hanging out with puppy and marking and rewarding anything s/he does that I like and want to encourage. This creates default behaviors such as giving me eye contact even when I haven't specifically asked for it, with a sit or a down, and then I use those behaviors (NILIF) for everything I can think of as a routine part of daily life. Having the dog constantly offering deference behaviors can make the dog become more deferent. Nothing in Life is Free

Because of this my dogs are much less likely to get out of line or not do what I say since they've learned that the way to get what THEY want is to do what *I* want. This is well established long before they're two years old. That doesn't mean they're perfect, but I can use management to minimize their opportunities to do the wrong thing, as Blitzkrieg also mentions. An example of this is that our dogs are very excited when people come over. We don't have company often, usually just a couple times a year, so it's never become routine. They'd jump all over our guest if we let them, so we keep them leashed until they calm down, and then they're fine. Could we work harder to "fix" this? Sure. But since it's not a frequent occurrence and the management strategy is simple and it works, we've chosen not to bother.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

it is my opinion that dogs in general and gsds in particular _want _to please their owner
perceived defiance is probably a lack of basic foundational training
that is you think the dog has it when in reality through corrections and poor timing the dog is confused as all get out

this could indeed be why the dog is coming up the leash 
frustration and misunderstanding

the solution is not ever increasing hard corrections but learning how and why the dog is confused and also going back to basics of training
so the dog does understand what it is supposed to be doing

this is not a personal knock against you the op
everyone is prone to this kind of thing


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## Tratkins (Feb 15, 2014)

I am jumping on this thread only to say that we recently introduced the prong to our very large 7 month old (80 lbs now). I am a smaller woman and our dog started resisting his flat collar so our trainer recommended introducing the prong. What I like about our trainer is that he is taking it VERY slow with the prong. Our dog is a bit "neck sensitive" meaning that he will nip (not hard, but enough to let you know he doesn't like you grabbing his collar) as you try to hook and unhook the leash or put any collar on. I was sad he was collar sensitive because since the day we got him at 8 weeks, we NEVER grabbed his collar to ensure this wouldn't be a problem. We always used a drag lead on him so we could correct puppy naughties from a distance. It is just who he is...

Instead of just slapping the collar on, we have backed up several steps and have literally taken 2 weeks to work on this neck issue and very slowly introduce him to the prong. First we let him "nose" it and then I laid it across his legs for several days until he was comfortable. Then I wrapped it around his neck without hooking it and finally was able to hook it without him even noticing (or caring at least). We began this process 2 weeks ago and he has only worn it so far for short periods in the house and in the driveway. Next week, we will take him to a park.

My point it is that maybe you should back up several steps to make sure he fully understands his corrections. Dogs (strong GSDs especially) can become resistant to ANY collar including flat, prong, choke and even shock) if they are not used correctly.

Good luck to you! Back up and take it slow, and be consistent so that your dog isn't confused about what you are doing and why he is getting corrected. A prong correction should be a light "get his attention", not painful or shocking for the dog.


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## K9Kane (Jul 2, 2014)

I have always trained him with toys. No food drive whatsoever. This wasn't a training situation though, like I said, this was him doing something he's not supposed to do and he got corrected for it after he refused to do it. The end. I was looking to talk to people that have been in a similar situation, nto "if that was my dog he'd be PTS." PRetty harsh, and probably coming from someone who got their dog from the shelter or guy dwon the street.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

He sounds Luke a dog that is testing your leadership role " time to lead the pack " he is a dominant male wants to be the leader! I would get prof. Help!! Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## K9Kane (Jul 2, 2014)

jocoyn said:


> I am traveling and limited with my phone.....Google bradshaw....dominant dog.....Tarheel k9.......he has a good article on dealing with the dominant dog.....
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

K9Kane said:


> I have always trained him with toys. No food drive whatsoever. This wasn't a training situation though, like I said, this was him doing something he's not supposed to do and he got corrected for it after he refused to do it. The end. I was looking to talk to people that have been in a similar situation, nto "if that was my dog he'd be PTS." PRetty harsh, and probably coming from someone who got their dog from the shelter or guy dwon the street.


You asked on a public forum. I gave my opinion and yes all 4 of my dogs came from a "shelter" or "rescue" so what? 

apparently I'm not allowed to talk about PTS here so if you want you can start a new thread.


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## K9Kane (Jul 2, 2014)

bill said:


> He sounds Luke a dog that is testing your leadership role " time to lead the pack " he is a dominant male wants to be the leader! I would get prof. Help!! Bill
> 
> Stahl my boy!


This is what I was told recently. Consulting with a guy that has seen this numerous times. this problem will be sorted


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## K9Kane (Jul 2, 2014)

Packen, do you mind if I PM you?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

What was his attention on when it happened K9Kane?


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## K9Kane (Jul 2, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> What was his attention on when it happened K9Kane?


He grabbed something off the ground on a walk, I firmly told him to out, he looked away from me, so I pretty firmly popped him with the prong collar, still nothing, so I went harder, and that's when he erupted.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

So maybe you got a little angry along with going harder? Your emotion along with the physical correction can give him a whole different perception of it. I'm just guessing too K9Kane, but I think with the help of a good trainer working with you as far as overall obedience, it wont end up being a big deal.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

My last male came up the leash at me. It was scary. But we got it sorted. 

It sounds like it's a bit if dominance and resource guarding all wrapped into one. He had a high value "treat" and you progressively got more physical trying to take it, so he escalated as well. 

I do think this is fixable. It was in my case. Which was different. My boy decided to come up the leash at me during obedience exercises, if I gave a correction at all he came at me. But in the end, he was the best dog ever. It was a leadership issue. I messed up his foundation and ended up confusing him with badly timed and poor corrections. Lesson learned. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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