# Help! We are at a loss.



## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

We have a 1 year old German Shepherd pup. He turned 1 on November 16th. At home, he is obedient, loving, calm (mostly, I mean he's still a puppy) and all around just a great dog. He's extremely intelligent and has picked up on a lot of things that we never even had to train him to do. I've had dogs all my life with my parents and I've always trained our dogs (all golden retrievers) and never had an issue with this... Our dog (Indiana) is EXTREMELY people aggressive. but only with strangers, and mostly on walks. Its absolutely a fear thing, because people who are willing to stop and work with us end up getting licked to death in about 5 seconds after Indiana has decided they are safe. Another thing is he walks on a leash fine in the home, but as soon as we get him into a different environment, he pulls and cries and barks and carries on. We've spent hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars on trainers and obedience classes and vet visits and we are out of money and patience. I would never get rid of him but I hate not being able to walk him by myself (he's too big for me when he pulls) and I want people to be able to pet him and say hello on walks... or at least walk without putting the fear of god into other people on the trail!! Please help! I will answer everything as best I can. He was just fixed the other day and we had a bad day at the vet which is why I'm here. The vet literally looked at me and said "how do you expect me to work with this?" and walked out of the room. He really is a sweet loving boy. Its so hard to watch him be so aggressive.


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## Malibu (Jul 27, 2017)

I am not sure how you correct a fearful dog which is what he sounds like. 

He must understand that YOU are taking him for a walk, not the other way around. He should not be able to be naughty in any way or we are not moving forward.

I think I would try running him pass those situation and not stopping and see how he acts and move ahead from their.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh man...the vet  I'm sorry your vet did that instead of finding a solution like muzzling him.

What kind of training have you done? Was it all positive? If so, your dog needs a balance to understand what behavior is acceptable and what isn't. I've seen many reactive dogs that are all positive trained who have never gotten over their issues because they were never told No! You will not behave like this!

You can correct for bad behavior. Not the fear but the behavior. Your dog reacts, you tell him Sit. He ignores you. You CAN correct for disobeying the command Sit and that IS what he will understand. Once he understands that, then you can move on to behavior modification for the fear, which it sounds like he is perfectly capable of doing.

Fearful dogs are hard and exhausting. I feel your pain. Where are you located? I know you have already spent a lot on trainers but maybe someone can recommend one for you that will work.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Well first I would find a new vet, that is just not cool.

I am not a trainer, not an expert and according to some folks on the forum neither bright nor sane, so take my advice for what it's worth:smile2:

I can only tell you what worked for me. Everyone hates my dog. My husband refused to live with her, we went through half a dozen vets, trainers won't touch her.
She is sweet, well mannered and friendly as heck. At home where she is comfortable. Out in the world she is a disaster. She pulls, she lunges, she pitches fits that rival those of the most unruly toddler, shrieking, screaming, throwing herself on the ground. She snaps at people, she barks and snarls at other dogs.
I have a bit of an advantage over you. She is barely 50lbs, I can pick her up. 
I conditioned her to a muzzle, step 1. She wears a basket muzzle in public and an exam muzzle at the vets. It is part of her routine, she understands that and she is fine. 
We worked really hard on focus, step 2. Look at me, watch me. She is conditioned to focus on me when crap gets her worked up outside. So if another dog pops into our view she immediately looks at me. We also worked on thresholds. How close is too close? When we started if she could see it it was too close, yesterday morning we had a loose dog 10 feet away challenging her and although she did bark back a few times, she held her sit and stayed mostly focused on me.
I walk her on a prong collar most often, step 3, although lately we have just used her martingale and she is fine. Since no one else would help me I reached out to a member here on the forum. He helped me immensely to learn how to fit and use the prong and was an awesome resource. The prong allowed me to quickly and properly correct poor behavior and actually relaxed her so she could enjoy the world. 

One of the issues with fearful dogs is that they work themselves into such a state that learning is impossible, that was where the prong helped me. The other thing I learned was about stress. If we had an incident or a really bad day I learned to skip the walks for a day or two to allow the stress hormones to dissipate and her body get back to level.


If you can work with a good trainer it would help, the problem there is more bad ones then good ones so if someone on here has a recommendation perhaps that will point you in the right direction.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Pet owner here, not an expert. 

It seems to me you have two issues, your dog being insecure in unfamiliar environments, and fear of strangers. I'd have a 'time out', get to enjoy and have fun on walks and with each other, without stress and trauma. Walk him somewhere quiet and familiar, away from people, before you start working on unfamiliar environments, and fear of strangers. 

If you are feeling stressed, anxious and are emotionally reacting to your dog's behaviour, Indiana picks up on that. Rather than want people to be able to pet him and say hello on walks, having him ignore people would be a more realistic training goal.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Well first I would find a new vet, that is just not cool.
> 
> I am not a trainer, not an expert and according to some folks on the forum neither bright nor sane, so take my advice for what it's worth/forum/images/Germanshepherds_2016/smilies/tango_face_smile.png
> 
> ...



It’s good to hear someone on board with a little negative reinforcement. The only time we’ve had success in “training” out bad behaviors with Indy is when using negative reinforcement. He peed in the house for about 2 months after we got him at 9 weeks old until I finally stopped listening to the internet and went back to negative reinforcement when he peed or pooped in the house. He was housebroken WITHIN THE WEEK. We’ve tried ignoring people, we’ve tried running past people, we’ve tried turning around (completely useless by the way, especially when people are coming at you from all sides) we’ve tried giving treats when people are near, we’ve tried making him sit and wait for people to pass, we’ve tried socializing him, we’ve tried almost every positive reinforcement there is and nothing has worked. It’s been going on for about 6-7 months. We immeadiately got him into obedience classes when we noticed a problem but it’s only gotten worse. The only thing we haven’t tried is negative reinforcement, and that’s mostly because I’m terrified it will make him MORE afraid of people. We have a regular chain choke collar (the vet made me put it on him along with a muzzle and it was still on him after surgery. Super mad about that, but that’s another story) I just don’t want to hurt him. Sounds like if the choke doesn’t do the trick we will try a prong collar next. I hate resorting to that, but I don’t see another way out. We are located near pittsburgh, PA.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

oh!!!! Contact Joeri Veth in Pittsburgh
https://www.thenorthernborderboarding.com/training/

He can help you


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Sometimes it is fear, sometimes it is just a misplaced piece in the puzzle. My gal-dog started barking at people right before her 2nd heat. She got to a time in her life when she just didn't want strangers coming to her unasked for. It wasn't true aggression. It was just gave a "keep your distance please" bark. But it looked and sounded scary. I would correct her with a tug and a firm NO. Then I'd walk her a short way and if she was calm I rewarded her...but the barking didn't get better. It took a trainer to watch me and see my mistake. My gal was connecting it all together: bark, walk, treat! The answer was so simple. If she barked then no reward even if she was calm afterwards. She only got rewards for a calm pass. We practiced with the other dogs in the class so that she could figure out the difference. It came down to my timing. We also honored her desire to be aloof and cautious. No one looks or speaks to her unless she goes up to them. Folks are fine to chat with us and she waits calmly. On restaurant patios we find a table where she can rest near a wall or under the table. 

I hope Jax's suggested trainer can watch the interaction and give you some tips that work. Also remember a 1 year old GSD is like a teenager, thinking they are grown up but actually clueless about the world.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

_"We have a regular chain choke collar (the vet made me put it on him along with a muzzle and it was still on him after surgery. Super mad about that, but that’s another story) I just don’t want to hurt him. Sounds like if the choke doesn’t do the trick we will try a prong collar next. I hate resorting to that, but I don’t see another way out._" 

Research has shown that the prong collar has far, far less potential for physically damaging to a dogs neck and spine or airway than a choke chain collar. It really does get a bad rap simply because of it's looks. I was one who felt that the prong collar was a midieval torture device until our trainer put it on himself and showed me it doesn't puncture the skin and cause injury if fitted and used properly. Have used one ever since when needed. Don't be afraid to put it in your box of useful training tools.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

I will second the prong collar, it makes walks not only bearable but enjoyable with my dobe mix. It couldn’t hurt him because he goes nuts with excitement whenever I grab it. I also use a hands free bungee style leash, it’s great because it lets him know gradually when the leash is running short and prevents abrupt pulls. And instead of my arms or shoulders absorbing it, my midsection does which is way less stressful. It also has two handholds on it, one is up close for quick grabs if needed.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> oh!!!! Contact Joeri Veth in Pittsburgh
> https://www.thenorthernborderboarding.com/training/
> 
> He can help you


We will have to save up for a few months especially with the holidays since all other efforts have sapped us of everything we have ? would have been less expensive to have a human child


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> It’s good to hear someone on board with a little negative reinforcement. The only time we’ve had success in “training” out bad behaviors with Indy is when using negative reinforcement. He peed in the house for about 2 months after we got him at 9 weeks old until I finally stopped listening to the internet and went back to negative reinforcement when he peed or pooped in the house. He was housebroken WITHIN THE WEEK. We’ve tried ignoring people, we’ve tried running past people, we’ve tried turning around (completely useless by the way, especially when people are coming at you from all sides) we’ve tried giving treats when people are near, we’ve tried making him sit and wait for people to pass, we’ve tried socializing him, we’ve tried almost every positive reinforcement there is and nothing has worked. It’s been going on for about 6-7 months. We immeadiately got him into obedience classes when we noticed a problem but it’s only gotten worse. The only thing we haven’t tried is negative reinforcement, and that’s mostly because I’m terrified it will make him MORE afraid of people. We have a regular chain choke collar (the vet made me put it on him along with a muzzle and it was still on him after surgery. Super mad about that, but that’s another story) I just don’t want to hurt him. Sounds like if the choke doesn’t do the trick we will try a prong collar next. I hate resorting to that, but I don’t see another way out. We are located near pittsburgh, PA.


So a couple of quick corrections, I never use negative reinforcement until a behavior is known and your vet put the muzzle back on after surgery and before he was awake enough to pose a risk. 
If your dog is refusing treats, you are well past his threshold. I used to start shovelling treats in when we left the house, when she started ignoring them I knew we were to close. Your goal should be for your dog to ignore people, not be friendly with them.
The prong properly used is less force then a choke and most often now a jiggle on it will snap Shadow out of her zone. I also have a relaxed dog trotting beside me wagging her tail with her mouth open as opposed to a dog tip toeing beside me with her tail tucked and her hackles up, lunging desperately from side to side, which is what I used to have.

One more point though, walks are for the dog not the owner. I don't want my dog in a perfect heel on a walk. She is allowed to wander and sniff, lead or follow as the whim takes her. I ask that she not yank me around and that she obey when I ask for a closer walk or a heel when passing someone or for example in the hallway of the hotel. She may examine objects or spots but must leave it if I tell her to. 
My dog is 8 years old and will always be a work in progress and I can't stress that enough. She will never be "fixed", this is who she is and it's all about management.


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## desinif (Jul 15, 2017)

I don't have much to offer, but I will tell you that my Luna (at 1 and a half years old) has become increasingly aggressive at the vet office. She's perfectly fine in the waiting room, whines but nothing bad, but once she's in that room, she will growl, nip, and in general not let anyone near her. This wasn't always the case, but became more so after each time she went (two x-rays and a spay, so multiple times sedated.) What started it though... The thermometer. Poor dog hated it so much and no amount of treats or pets or love overcame it.

My point is your vet saying something along "how am I supposed to work with this?" just shows they aren't equipped for dogs with fear or aggression. Dogs aren't humans. They don't understand what's going on like people do. My vet has never gotten annoyed at Luna and knows she is aggressive during her visits, for which case we have worked with her to muzzle during basic exams and during more serious exams, she's had to be medicated to be lightly sedated/for anxiety. Our vet has really worked with us to be able to bring her in when we need to and goes out of his way to be sure to provide us with care despite her increasing fear of the office. It may be really beneficial to find a vet that's willing to work with a fearful and/or aggressive dog.

That said, I agree with Sabis Mom that she will NEVER be "fixed." Luna is a fearful/anxious dog and we've gotten her to a point where we can walk appropriately and ignore people (with the use of the prong collar), she doesn't scare off people that stop by the house (except the UPS guy... I don't know what she has against him.) But we will never introduce her to children, small dogs, or strangers. Even on walks, I have accepted that I will always have to tell people NO, she is NOT to be approached or attempted to be petted. It's just not safe for your dog or the people around. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy your dog's personality and quirks in comfortable, safe places.

Just wanted to also say, each dogs threshold is really important too. The more comfortable Luna's become even with people stopping by the house all was dependent on how we took control of the situation, didn't push her, and kept our visitors calm as well. Her threshold did increase over the last several months. It's definitely important to know their stress boundaries!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> We will have to save up for a few months especially with the holidays since all other efforts have sapped us of everything we have ? would have been less expensive to have a human child


Just a thought on training. First, I am confident that Joeri and Katie can help you. Second, you don't need to go every week. You can go as you can afford to as long as you work on what you've learned and remain consistent. If you go every 3 weeks with the occasional lesson in between as needed then you will still be better off than no training.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> We've spent hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars on trainers and obedience classes and vet visits and we are out of money and patience.


You've already gotten great advice from people more experienced than me, so I don't have much to add. I just wanted to say that I admire how much time and effort that you have put into your dog. I feel frustrated for you...since you've already spent so much time and money on trainers and haven't gotten much of a result. I think even a few sessions with the right trainer with the right tools and experiences could make a difference. 

My first GSD was aggressive towards strange dogs on walks (though he was great with the ones we lived with). I worked with a schutuzhund-experienced trainer who taught me how to use a prong collar, as well as some other techniques and things got much better. He was never a happy go-lucky, carefree dog that I could take anywhere and not pay attention to my surroundings, but we could manage and do some fun things. 

That dog also did not like the vet, partly due to a bad experience I think, and partly because of his own temperament. I got one of those black fabric muzzles and put it on him in the exam room. This kept everyone safe. You might get a muzzle for your dog for use at the vet's office. You might also think about finding a new vet unless your current vet is exemplary in other ways. If your vet is uncomfortable and intimidated and dislikes your GSD, it's not going to help the situation.



WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> I hate not being able to walk him by myself (he's too big for me when he pulls) and I want people to be able to pet him and say hello on walks... or at least walk without putting the fear of god into other people on the trail!!


I think with the right techniques, you can absolutely be able to take your dog on walks without pulling and lunging or frightening people. He may not be the type of dog that enjoys greeting strangers and being petted by random people. And that should be okay, as long as he learns not to act aggressively. I don't think it's helpful to try to force him to accept petting and affection from strangers. If he doesn't like it, it may just make him pay more attention to people. He may bark to get them to go away, and when they do, it reinforces the behavior. I would try to teach him to think of passers-by like scenery, something to be ignored, something that is going to pass by without bothering him. That is kind of the philosophy I take with my own dogs. 

Right now I have two GSDs. One tolerates and even enjoys meeting new people and being petted and admired. If people ask to pet him, I let them. The other one does not enjoy meeting people. He doesn't bark or growl, but he clearly has no interest and sometimes he will move back to avoid being petted. I respect that, and I do not allow pedestrians to pet him. I require him to obey me and to stand quietly and patiently if I am talking to someone. He doesn't have to like people but he is not allowed to act like a jerk. 

A proper leash correction with good timing can communicate a lot and doesn't hurt the dog. I use a prong collar sometimes--though they are controversial, even on this forum. I have used and disliked other training tools (like head halters and choke collars). The prong collar can help a lot with pulling, though you can teach loose leash walking with other tools and methods, especially if you're patient and dog-savvy. I have found the prong collar can be helpful in breaking an ingrained pulling habit. GSDs acclimate to the prong collar quickly I have found, and mine haven't seemed bothered by it. But the collar needs to be fitted properly, so have someone experienced show you how to use them. I use a prong collar sometimes because I often walk with a GSD, a stroller, and two toddlers. My dogs don't pull much anymore, but it gives me the confidence to know that IF I did need extra control for some reason, I would have it. 

How do you feel or react when you are walking your dog and you see someone approaching? Try to be relaxed, confident, and feel in control when you see someone coming. Try not to expect something negative. If you are tensed or nervous yourself, anticipating something bad to happen, I have learned that the feeling can be transmitted down the leash. GSDs are very sensitive to their handlers and pick up our emotions. 

I am no trainer or expert, but this is what I did with my dog who reacted aggressively to other dogs. 

I would give doggo a command when you see someone coming (like watch me, or heel, or sit). The trainer who helped me had me move my dog to the side and do a sit/stay. But when I was working on my own I sometimes preferred to do a "watch me" or a "heel" so we could keep moving. If your doggo decides to react to the person instead of obeying, correct him with the leash, and then have him obey the command. Try to correct him before he's flipping out (watch for whatever sign tells you he's about to lose it....lowered head, fixed gaze, whatever). Praise him and give him treats when he is calm and you've passed. Timing is really important, and is hard to convey through writing. It would be easier if there was someone at your side to show you. 

Again, I would not expect your GSD to be warm and friendly toward strangers in the way that your goldens probably were. It is not in the GSD breed description to be overtly friendly, but they should not display inappropriately aggressive behavior either. 

Since you've worked with a lot of trainers, I assume your dog has pretty strong basic obedience. If he doesn't, I'd keep working on the basics (sit, stay, come, heel, watch) both at home and in other places.

Anyway, I'm not a trainer, just a GSD lover. I hope you keep working with your dog, and I am sorry your first experience with the breed has been a rocky one. I wish you and your doggo the best, and hope you stick around to give us updates.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> It’s good to hear someone on board with a little negative reinforcement. The only time we’ve had success in “training” out bad behaviors with Indy is when using negative reinforcement. He peed in the house for about 2 months after we got him at 9 weeks old until I finally stopped listening to the internet and went back to negative reinforcement when he peed or pooped in the house. He was housebroken WITHIN THE WEEK.


Not to be too pedantic here, but you're not talking about negative reinforcement here, you're talking about positive punishment! It can be, and is, confusing at times to identify the correct term, but it is an important distinction! See this description for definitions:

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Operant-Conditioning-for-Dogs_20414-1.html



WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> We’ve tried ignoring people, we’ve tried running past people, we’ve tried turning around (completely useless by the way, especially when people are coming at you from all sides) we’ve tried giving treats when people are near, we’ve tried making him sit and wait for people to pass, we’ve tried socializing him, we’ve tried almost every positive reinforcement there is and nothing has worked. It’s been going on for about 6-7 months. We immeadiately got him into obedience classes when we noticed a problem but it’s only gotten worse. The only thing we haven’t tried is negative reinforcement, and that’s mostly because I’m terrified it will make him MORE afraid of people. We have a regular chain choke collar (the vet made me put it on him along with a muzzle and it was still on him after surgery. Super mad about that, but that’s another story) I just don’t want to hurt him. Sounds like if the choke doesn’t do the trick we will try a prong collar next. I hate resorting to that, but I don’t see another way out. We are located near pittsburgh, PA.


Since you mentioned not having money right now for a trainer, which IMHO is the best way to go, I thought I'd jump in here and offer my 2 cents...for what it's worth.

Stated succinctly, you can't force a dog to be "comfortable" with something, but you can teach them what is and is not acceptable behavior. It takes time and patience, and IMHO a balanced approach. 

For reactivity, dog or human, spend lots of time exposing your dog to the "trigger" at a distance they can handle. There's a technique called "sit on the dog" where you take your dog somewhere, a park or a ball field, where they can see people, but keep them back far enough that they're not losing it, and just sit there with them and let them watch. No need to say anything, no need to do anything, just sit and let your dog watch the world go by...watch their body language, when they are comfortable incrementally move closer over time. And by "over time" I mean typically over the course of weeks, not in a single day or session. At each step once your dog is comfortable engage him a bit in training or play before moving closer. It takes time, and it takes a lot of patience, but it works!

Personally, because I'm perhaps not as patient as others, I will push the envelope a bit by moving just close enough that the dog is starting to show signs of discomfort, marking their reactions with a negative marker (not a correction, just calmly saying no is what I use), then distracting them with commands or activities to help them get over their focus and reactivity at that distance. Follow that with ample time to get comfortable again on their own at that distance, then repeat. If they can't be distracted you're too close, so move back a little. 

If you do this marking of the behavior that is undesirable, your dog should understand eventually. It's sort of a tricky balance, but once you see that your negative marker is understood by the dog, you can begin to up the ante, so to speak, and use a mild correction. 

To be clear here, as I said before you can't force a dog to be comfortable with something they aren't, so I'm not recommending a strong correction in this situation ever! But a mild correction, properly timed, can help the dog refocus and reset. It's a small leash pop only...

And again, working with the trainer Jax recommended will help you tremendously to refine your technique with your dog, and is very likely to speed up this whole process dramatically. 

I'm sure there's more I could say here, but I'll leave it at that for now. I've had very good luck with this technique, I hope you find it or part of it helpful in your case!

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress!


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

sebrench said:


> Since you've worked with a lot of trainers, I assume your dog has pretty strong basic obedience. If he doesn't, I'd keep working on the basics (sit, stay, come, heel, watch) both at home and in other places.


He is SO good at sit, stay, lay down, here, and all that fun stuff. He actually is even trained I can have my front door wide open and he waits for me to tell him okay before he can go! Hes very obedient until something distracts him and then all bets are off. 

Golden retrievers are wonderfuly smart dogs, but I’ve never met a dog to love me so much and to have this level of intelligence. German shepherds are a really wonderful breed. While my guy has had some hiccups he has made my first experience with the breed so amazing!


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Then train just as you did before and add distractions systemically. No value not moving, no value moving, value not moving, value moving, noises and movements will be hardest. Level up as the dog is successful be creative. All at home if away from home the environment needs to match what the dog is successful in at home. 
I can highly recommend the Collared Scholar reactive dog boot camp. It is not just for reactive dogs even given the title. 
I won't even begin to tell you all the things I have tried, this program works, I swear the program owner is a saint to pet owners and sport competitors alike.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I'd vote for the prong collar.

I had a friend bring her dog into my kennel. Her son was on one end of the leash, and the dog was on the other. The dog was walking her son, not the other way around. He had VERY little control of the dog, which was wearing a halti.

As the dog already had a muzzle order against it, this was a disaster looking for a place to happen! (I guess they thought the halti would do in place of a muzzle.)

I put a prong on the dog, and in 15 minutes had it walking by my side on a loose leash! The dog got rewarded with treats when it obeyed a correction with the prong, and stopped pulling. I also used the treats to get it to focus on me when a distraction was getting near.

I also used a prong on an 84 lb. male rescue I adopted that had never been leashed trained. Within 3 days, he was walking nicely on a loose leash, and within a couple of months, I was able to walk him in just a flat collar!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Forgot to add - I guess I was assuming you know this already, as you have trained your dog to do basic obedience, but just in case - the timing of corrections for something like this is crucial!

You need to constantly be aware of what your dog is focusing on. That's why the key to walking well on a leash starts with 'look at me', then treat. I always get the dog to look at my face, not the treat. I start with the treat near my face, then once the dog 'gets' what I want, I begin moving the treat until it's behind my back, and the dog looks at my face when I say 'watch me'. (I use 'yes!' as my reinforcement before treating, not a clicker, but clickers work, too.)

So, when adding distractions, correct the dog the second its eyes start to wander towards the distraction with a quick 'no' and snap of the leash. Once it is already straining towards it, it's much, much too late! And follow the advice given upstream about keeping the dog at its threshold distance, then getting closer once the dog is able to stay under threshold.

If the dog ignores the correction, you didn't do it hard enough. 

The amount of force needed for an effective correction depends both on the individual dog, how intense the distraction is, and how aroused the dog is by the distraction. It is going to take a LOT more force to correct a dog once it is actually lunging and barking at a person, versus when it first shifts its gaze to look at the person. And a person moving quickly (jogging, skateboarding, etc.) is going to be a much more intense distraction than someone just walking.

If you feel guilty about using corrections, and causing the dog momentary discomfort, please think of this: better a bit of discomfort, than the dog breaking away from you, and injuring someone, and maybe being PTS as a result!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> We have a 1 year old German Shepherd pup. He turned 1 on November 16th. At home, he is obedient, loving, calm (mostly, I mean he's still a puppy) and all around just a great dog. He's extremely intelligent and has picked up on a lot of things that we never even had to train him to do. I've had dogs all my life with my parents and I've always trained our dogs (all golden retrievers) and never had an issue with this... Our dog (Indiana) is EXTREMELY people aggressive. but only with strangers, and mostly on walks. Its absolutely a fear thing, because people who are willing to stop and work with us end up getting licked to death in about 5 seconds after Indiana has decided they are safe. Another thing is he walks on a leash fine in the home, but as soon as we get him into a different environment, he pulls and cries and barks and carries on. We've spent hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars on trainers and obedience classes and vet visits and we are out of money and patience. I would never get rid of him but I hate not being able to walk him by myself (he's too big for me when he pulls) and I want people to be able to pet him and say hello on walks... or at least walk without putting the fear of god into other people on the trail!! Please help! I will answer everything as best I can. He was just fixed the other day and we had a bad day at the vet which is why I'm here. The vet literally looked at me and said "how do you expect me to work with this?" and walked out of the room. He really is a sweet loving boy. Its so hard to watch him be so aggressive.


One problem I think is making this harder for you. Having him focus so much on strangers, the working with you stuff, is something I'd quit. I'd focus on him being indifferent to strangers, period. Talk to anyone you want, but keep enough distance that he'll learn to relax and not be thinking so much about who he may think is ok and who isn't. 

The second thing I'd think about is taking him on very structured walks, all about obedience for the time being. Heeling with you from start to finish. Show him that when you put the leash on its time to pay attention. Later on, add in a release that makes it clear he can sniff and whatever. It doesn't have to be a long walk in the beginning, so something like from home, around the block, back home and released there. What you want to be able to do is have a beginning cue that you can use at anytime, and a finished cue that you can go back and forth with anywhere. 

Personally, I think classes are a waste and probably made some things harder for you because there's too much going on. When you're going to work with your dog on some things, you want his attention and that means your attention has to be on him too. Thats tough when you have to listen to someone giving constant instructions and there's a bunch of other dogs around.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

What Steve said. I fervently wish I’d known those things when Beau was a pup, and before I learned the hard way how much crowds of people and dogs, and too much freedom, can screw things up. The mistakes are proving to be fixable, but it’s time we could’ve spent doing other things if I’d had one small clue. 

Follow this advice.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Hey guys! My husband and I took your advice and purchased a prong collar. I talked to my vet and watched multiple videos and ready multiple articles to make sure it fits properly. He doesn’t seem to like it but he also doesn’t absolutely hate it either and the best part—I seem to be able to walk him by myself! He still puts tension on the leash but only enough to lift my arm a little if I keep it relaxed at my side. Since he just got neutered, we haven’t gone on any long walks or passed people to test out the prong’s effectiveness in that scenario, but I have high hopes. 

I’ll keep you guys updated on how training with the collar goes this week! Thank you so much!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

In my experience, correcting with a prong collar ramps the dog up instead of shutting the reaction down. Just be aware this is a possibility.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Don't forget you have to train him no matter what collar he's wearing. It can be easy to mistake the temporary effects the discomfort of the collar give you, with actually teaching him to behave. That's one way to end up with what Jax mentioned.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

What Steve said! He should NOT be allowed to pull on the collar AT ALL. He should be walking on a loose leash, at your side. If you don't know how to teach him to do this, you need the help of a good trainer.

THIS is the goal I strive for when teaching my dog to heel:


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Beau will ramp up if someone corrects too hard with a prong, yes. But he responds very well, and calmly, to very light little leash pops, which I hardly need to do anymore. For example, our last walk only needed one, when he tried to increase his pace too much while passing a barking dog, and my hand started to float. Otherwise, the leash was loose for the whole walk. 

Just remember to use very light corrections, the lightest twitch that will work for your dog. And don’t ever yank!


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## Gloria Moretz (Apr 19, 2018)

Hi, just wondering if he was socialized from the age of 8 weeks to be aromatherapy nd other people and places..our dog is 14 months now and even WITH socialization since that time we had the dog trading for when he is in different environments..treat rewards for good behavior, distraction with squeaky toys etc. while on walks may help..it may just take more time..he is a beautiful dog!


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## Gloria Moretz (Apr 19, 2018)

Hi, just wondering if he was socialized from the age of 8 weeks to be aromatherapy nd other people and places..our dog is 14 months now and even WITH socialization since that time we had the dog trading for when he is in different environments..treat rewards for good behavior, distraction with squeaky toys etc. while on walks may help..it may just take more time..he is a beautiful dog!


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Gloria Moretz said:


> Hi, just wondering if he was socialized from the age of 8 weeks to be aromatherapy nd other people and places..our dog is 14 months now and even WITH socialization since that time we had the dog trading for when he is in different environments..treat rewards for good behavior, distraction with squeaky toys etc. while on walks may help..it may just take more time..he is a beautiful dog!


Yes, he was socialized a good bit. Had I known what I know now though, I would have socialized him every single day and had people give him treats and teach him people are good. I used to take him with me to work to meet people, walk him around tractor supply (I live in pa and we got him in the middle of winter so it was hard to walk him) Lowe’s, Ect. Didn’t do it every day, but I wish I had. And thank you!!! We think he’s beautiful too!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Don't blame yourself too much, it's hard to socialize properly if the dog is wired to be fearful/aggressive to strangers. It's far from too late to remedy this issue, just give yourself realistic expectations.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Please reread what Steve Strom wrote. All of it. Lots of up close contact with strangers, even friendly treat-dispensing strangers, is *not* the answer with a genetically fearful GSD. More likely to make his behavior worse, not better, as he gets older. Your dog does not need to make friends with strange people or dogs. He just needs to learn to be neutral with them, and he needs some distance to learn that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> (I live in pa and we got him in the middle of winter so it was hard to walk him) Lowe’s, Ect. Didn’t do it every day, but I wish I had.


I just want to address this. I live in PA. Northeast PA where it is much colder than Pittsburgh. I got my boy in Nov. 2013. It was one of the coldest, longest winters I've ever experienced. He had very little socialization. Now, again, new puppy, terrible weather.

A genetically sound dog will have very little issues even if not "socialized" as a puppy. They will adapt.

Second, socialization is NOT NOT NOT flooding a puppy with people and other animals. You can easily make a fearful dog worse by doing this.

It is allowing the dog to experience the world by using its senses. Let them watch, walk over strange object, smell strange things. The Naughty Dogge has the best blog on this.
Socializing Your Puppy: how it should look | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee

Your dog does not need to interact with people or other animals. Your dog needs to know what behavior is acceptable and that people and other animals have the right to breathe. The solution to all of this is thru obedience. Provide the rules, the structure and your dog will chill out. Dogs like this typically do better when they have rules and consequences they have to follow.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have socialized dogs of all ages by heading to the local shopping plaza/gas station/coffee shop or park and simply letting them sit and watch. Dogs with weak nerves actually suffer from forced interaction, it can make them lash out at the very thing you are trying to expose them to. 
I had a young, injured dog pulled from a puppy farm who adapted in days and shrugged off any fear like it didn't exist. Her mother was still hiding under tables in the house weeks later. Shadow went everywhere with me from the day I got her and still needs help with the world at large 8 years later. Savannah, another of my fosters who came to me sick and was in quarantine for a bit romped into the world like it was her personal playground at around 12 weeks. There is no time line and no age limit. Patience and the ability to read your dog are what is needed.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> I had a young, injured dog pulled from a puppy farm who adapted in days and shrugged off any fear like it didn't exist. Her mother was still hiding under tables in the house weeks later.


Now, that's the difference between a dog with sound nerves, and one that's not!

I've had two dogs that had issues with small children. The one with sound nerves needed a couple of sessions in a playground where kids came and petted her and fed her treats, and has been fine with kids ever since. The other one was still spooking at children (and a lot of other stuff) when she was 2 years old, and had numerous exposures to kids.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Now, that's the difference between a dog with sound nerves, and one that's not!
> 
> I've had two dogs that had issues with small children. The one with sound nerves needed a couple of sessions in a playground where kids came and petted her and fed her treats, and has been fine with kids ever since. The other one was still spooking at children (and a lot of other stuff) when she was 2 years old, and had numerous exposures to kids.


Morgana was about a year old when I rescued her and her mother. Brigit continues to be very shy around strangers, but dotes on the children she lives with. Mori very nearly became a foster fail and is one of the dogs I refer to a lot. We cut them out of the cage they were in, owner said Mori had never been out of it and had in fact been born in it. She came out with a kiss of thanks and even injured she was a happy, easy and bold. Brigit was completely opposite. Still sweet but very reserved, not really skittish just very shy. When people came near her she would very politely go hide. No rushing or freaking, no barking and she never fought being held. We believe she was 4 years old. 
It really flies in the face of unstable dams creating unstable pups.


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## Kolbi2112 (Sep 26, 2017)

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but what kind of collar are you using? We used one of those gentle leaders for a while, turned out to be a big mistake. Switched to a Strenger prong collar, those things are magic (when used correctly). Remember, it’s YOU walking HIM, not the the other way around.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

_ Remember, it’s YOU walking HIM, not the the other way around._

YES!! There should be no pressure on the leash - it should be slack.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> We have a 1 year old German Shepherd pup. He turned 1 on November 16th. At home, he is obedient, loving, calm (mostly, I mean he's still a puppy) and all around just a great dog. He's extremely intelligent and has picked up on a lot of things that we never even had to train him to do. I've had dogs all my life with my parents and I've always trained our dogs (all golden retrievers) and never had an issue with this... Our dog (Indiana) is EXTREMELY people aggressive. but only with strangers, and mostly on walks. Its absolutely a fear thing, because people who are willing to stop and work with us end up getting licked to death in about 5 seconds after Indiana has decided they are safe. Another thing is he walks on a leash fine in the home, but as soon as we get him into a different environment, he pulls and cries and barks and carries on. We've spent hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars on trainers and obedience classes and vet visits and we are out of money and patience. I would never get rid of him but I hate not being able to walk him by myself (he's too big for me when he pulls) and I want people to be able to pet him and say hello on walks... or at least walk without putting the fear of god into other people on the trail!! Please help! I will answer everything as best I can. He was just fixed the other day and we had a bad day at the vet which is why I'm here. The vet literally looked at me and said "how do you expect me to work with this?" and walked out of the room. He really is a sweet loving boy. Its so hard to watch him be so aggressive.


Hard one- I don’t have much foryou but have you tried writing the dog whisper Ceaser Milon on tv? He seems tohave a good track record with aggressive/hard to train dog and it wouldn’t hurtto try


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I would stop encouraging people petting your young dog on walks. I would do a lot of walking away from people and only gradually move him in to more populated scenes. In these walks with few people, I would move him away and put him in a sit facing me and not the approaching person. During this sit (as the person passed and moved out of threshold) I would have him focus on me and reward that focus with a high value treat and perhaps end that with a tug toy reward.


I would not recommend Ceaser.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Hello Indiana. While you are saving up dollars for training, you can start researching other trainers in your area. Maybe find some some gsd clubs in your area you can visit. Talk to some folks about your situation and see if they can recommend a trainer/ behaviourist that can help you. You could post up your general area as maybe some one on the forum can direct to trainers and or clubs. Good luck.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Other than a vet or a trainer, no one outside of your family ever needs to pat your dog, unless both you and the dog are Ok with it. I never encourage strangers to play with mine, although he is more social than most. Occasionally if we are out and he wants to say hello, I let him, but only on my terms. This is not a breed that needs to be friendly to strangers.

For the vet, consider Trazodone. It acts as a mild sedative.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Hey guys, I just wanted to update. Indy got neutered and to help keep him comfortable and to not pick at the stitches the vet gave us acepromazine to sedate him while we were out of the house. It didn’t seem to do anything for him (sometimes I swear he got MORE hyper) but I’ve been giving it to him for stressful situations like the vet anyway since I had leftovers. Even on the meds in other situations, he’s been a nightmare with new people. The last vet visit was last week for his thinning hair (in another post) and I walked in the office with him expecting to have another wild lunging barking dog on my hands. To my EXTREME surprise, he was a complete angel. Didn’t even growl. Just gave the tech holding the door open a quick sniff and a tail wag, and on we went. Same with the vet. Sniff sniff, tail wag, quick hello kiss and then came over to me. It’s been about a month since he’s been neutered. Could this mean his hormones were causing a lot of the problem? This has thrown me for such a loop I’m not even sure where to begin with this new event. Does anyone have any opinions?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I wouldn't bet on it being his hormones. It could be a number of things, conditioning, maturity, environment, training, expectations, your mood, etc. But well done. I am glad the vet visit was calm and successful.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The spay/neuter crowd likes you to think that surgery is the answer to ALL your behavioural problems. Not true. The only thing it changes is the dog's libido, and it may help with male-on-male aggression. The only difference it made to my male was he didn't pee on the counter at the vet's anymore! 

Anyway, glad the visit went well!


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

I do believe hormones could have played a role in your dog's behavior. In the horse breeding world we have a 
few thoughts about leaving them intact- 'they have to earn that right by being well behaved and easy to handle'.
Otherwise they get snipped.
Just so you know, Ace is also known to make some horses more hyper, it doesn't always work to clm them down.

Glad to hear things are looking up for you. Best wishes.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Neutering's effect is variable, depending on the dog. If there's a benefit, it's usually about 6 weeks out. 


Please do some research yourself on acepromazine -- it used to be heavily prescribed as a tranquilizer for fearful or aggressive dog. It's basically thorazine for dogs -- a chemical restraint. Many vets have re-thought that use, based on research that it actually can be terrifying for the dog as they still experience whatever made the fearful but are basically paralyzed and unable to respond to it. 

Here are a few things to read about it:

https://www.preventivevet.com/dogs/why-you-shouldnt-use-acepromazine-for-cats-and-dogs

Acepromazine | Fearful Dogs

If your vet wants to use psychotropic drugs on your dog, ask for a referral to a board-certified vet behaviorist -- or ask your vet to consult remotely with one about your dogs case, for about $150.


If the fearful behavior at the vet returns when the dog isn't Aced, and your vet insists on Ace'ing the dog, it might be time to think about a new vet. I don't recommend that lightly, but there seem to be two strikes against this one -- walking out in your first post, and then using this old-school chemical restraint. I would look for a Fear Free certified vet or clinic for this dog -- https://fearfreepets.com/


My own vet recently was FF certified, as were the techs, and the difference in handling based on the professional training is astounding -- they're _SO GOOD _now at finding ways to distract, calm, and redirect. I've become a real believer in the use of the FF techniques after seeing them in practice. It's a slower kind of appointment, so you won't see it at discount practices that depend on volume -- it's worth paying a little extra for though with a fearful dog!


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Magwart said:


> Neutering's effect is variable, depending on the dog. If there's a benefit, it's usually about 6 weeks out.
> 
> 
> Please do some research yourself on acepromazine -- it used to be heavily prescribed as a tranquilizer for fearful or aggressive dog. It's basically thorazine for dogs -- a chemical restraint. Many vets have re-thought that use, based on research that it actually can be terrifying for the dog as they still experience whatever made the fearful but are basically paralyzed and unable to respond to it.
> ...



This was a new vet... we no longer go to the vet that walked out on him the first visit. This vet was the same one that gave him his rabies vaccine when he was pup so we could start obedience classes. She has always been excellent with him. They are a little more on the pricier side but I’m willing to fork out the extra $$ for a vet who actually loves and cares about animals.


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## Kari01 (Sep 7, 2018)

Glad things seem to be going better  Just thought I would throw my two cents in anyway, as in my opinion this isn't a quick fix issue, but more about building a longer term positive association and trust in your dog about strangers and how to act in certain situations.

My girl is currently approximately 11 months now and has experienced some similar issues in the past. When she was a younger puppy, unfortunately many many people would insist on shrieking excitedly in her direction, staring at her, trying to pet her (with or without asking), approaching her very excitedly etc. My girl did NOT like this one bit (and neither did it - what is wrong with people?!). My girl is much like her owner and not particular people friendly LOL! Unfortunately I was under somewhat of a false impression that I "needed to socialize her" and would put her through situations around a lot of people and sometimes even try and force her to interact in the misguided hopes that it would make her be 'social' and 'friendly to people'.

Long story short, I have now learned that my girl IS friendly, just only to HER people (myself and family), and she does not want to be friends with anyone else, and that is totally fine. By my constantly trying to encourage her to interact with strangers, I was actually creating the negative association and making it much much worse. When I started to realize this we spent months in reverse just going about our business, no one allowed to approach or touch my dog (as rude as it may appear to others), and low and behold she actually is much friendlier to strangers than ever  It doesn't mean she necessarily wants to be touched or interact, but she is just happy in the presence of people knowing that no one is going to force her outside of her comfort zone. I have used a prong collar in the past and she now auto sits when she sees a stranger she isn't happy with, and is very watchful until they have passed at a safe distance, and then we carry on with our walk. If it's someone she is semi-comfortable with, we just pass at a fast and focused walk speed, I won't let her stop, because unfortunately I can't control other people's actions and I don't need them to undo the work I have done by trying to touch her head and shrieking at her (wouldn't that freak you out?! LOL!).


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Kari01 said:


> Glad things seem to be going better /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif Just thought I would throw my two cents in anyway, as in my opinion this isn't a quick fix issue, but more about building a longer term positive association and trust in your dog about strangers and how to act in certain situations.
> 
> My girl is currently approximately 11 months now and has experienced some similar issues in the past. When she was a younger puppy, unfortunately many many people would insist on shrieking excitedly in her direction, staring at her, trying to pet her (with or without asking), approaching her very excitedly etc. My girl did NOT like this one bit (and neither did it - what is wrong with people?!). My girl is much like her owner and not particular people friendly LOL! Unfortunately I was under somewhat of a false impression that I "needed to socialize her" and would put her through situations around a lot of people and sometimes even try and force her to interact in the misguided hopes that it would make her be 'social' and 'friendly to people'.
> 
> Long story short, I have now learned that my girl IS friendly, just only to HER people (myself and family), and she does not want to be friends with anyone else, and that is totally fine. By my constantly trying to encourage her to interact with strangers, I was actually creating the negative association and making it much much worse. When I started to realize this we spent months in reverse just going about our business, no one allowed to approach or touch my dog (as rude as it may appear to others), and low and behold she actually is much friendlier to strangers than ever /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif It doesn't mean she necessarily wants to be touched or interact, but she is just happy in the presence of people knowing that no one is going to force her outside of her comfort zone. I have used a prong collar in the past and she now auto sits when she sees a stranger she isn't happy with, and is very watchful until they have passed at a safe distance, and then we carry on with our walk. If it's someone she is semi-comfortable with, we just pass at a fast and focused walk speed, I won't let her stop, because unfortunately I can't control other people's actions and I don't need them to undo the work I have done by trying to touch her head and shrieking at her (wouldn't that freak you out?! LOL!).


I would honestly LOVE LOVE LOVE it if all my guy wanted was to be left alone. He actually actively lunges and barks at people. He WANTS to go up and give them a sniff. He just has a very loud scary way of showing it ? I’m hoping to get to the point where he can just walk past people and ignore them!! That’s the ideal situation.


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