# Incest in pedigree?



## goldenlyre (Mar 15, 2017)

Hey all, so this morning I finally got Apollo's pedigree in the mail. It's exciting to be able to research his lineage to find out where he really came from etc etc, but something caught my attention. I noticed that there was some close inbreeding. Now, I know that linebreeding is still utilized today in some cases so I was wondering if I should be really concerned about this? Also, where can I find more information about where he came from? I'm sure he didn't come from champion bloodlines or anything, but I'm still curious!


----------



## BigHemi45 (May 10, 2016)

Post the pedigree. There are very trained eyes here for stuff like that.


----------



## goldenlyre (Mar 15, 2017)

Okay, here's the pedigree! From what I can see on the sire's line, it *seems* that it consists mostly of dogs bred for temperament, but I could be wrong, I mostly looked at Cripple Creek, but there wasn't much to go off of. My main concern on the linebreeding was that, as you can see, Deja's Maximus Knight is the sire to my pup, and also the sire to his dam, that's awfully close for me not to question it, you know? haha


----------



## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

TBH I would have avoided this breeder, but I'm not sure what you're looking for, an answer as to whether the inbreeding is too close or not? IMO yes, but you have your pup now lets just hope that it doesn't reflect poorly on him.


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

I'd call that inbreeding, not linebreeding. I'm not a breeder and don't pretend to be, so I don't know why someone would do that, but I'd definitely ask the breeder why that decision was made.

Hope you have a great pup! Maybe mention it to his vet so y'all can keep aware.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That is certainly too close. I have heard of people breeding a dog or bitch back to a dam or sire respectively to see what recessives the dog has. But they should have let you know that before you agreed to the purchase. And there has to be a good reason to do it, and even then it is a gamble. 

What you have is a 1-2 in-breeding. 

Incest is not a word we associate with dog breeding. A dog's moral structure is not set up to follow or not follow an incest taboo. If a dog has opportunity, he will breed with any close relation -- no shame or guilt associated. It is up to breeders to ensure that doesn't happen, or if it does for whatever reason to find out what they want to know and be responsible for any problems that it is much more likely to reveal.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Only a guess... on the assumption that the number in parenthesis is a birthdate(?) and/or the kennel practices litter letters when naming - it looks like cripple creek may have bred siblings a couple generations back. It's also my understanding that that's never okay.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You might get the best or the worst of the traits, or both, but this is not a pedigree of dogs that were bred for temperament and I would be more worried about that than anything else.


----------



## goldenlyre (Mar 15, 2017)

Dracovich said:


> TBH I would have avoided this breeder, but I'm not sure what you're looking for, an answer as to whether the inbreeding is too close or not? IMO yes, but you have your pup now lets just hope that it doesn't reflect poorly on him.


I'm mostly looking for a companion pup and if I can do something along the lines of agility or something else, I'd love to but time will tell, you know?



selzer said:


> That is certainly too close. I have heard of people breeding a dog or bitch back to a dam or sire respectively to see what recessives the dog has. But they should have let you know that before you agreed to the purchase. And there has to be a good reason to do it, and even then it is a gamble.


As of right now, I'm thinking there wasn't a good reason, and that it was an accidental litter. It's disappointing but so far he seems like a really good pup, and I'll be making sure to notify his vet about the closeness and hopefully we will be able to avoid any serious issues.

I'm crossing my fingers, are the chances really bad that there will be something wrong or.....?


----------



## goldenlyre (Mar 15, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You might get the best or the worst of the traits, or both, but this is not a pedigree of dogs that were bred for temperament and I would be more worried about that than anything else.


I'll be sure to keep a close eye on him, he's only 8 weeks right now so I guess only time will tell. I'm hoping temperament wise he will be all right especially considering I have a child at home but like I said I will definitely be proactive.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If it was an accidental breeding they should have told you and explained about the pedigree.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you have a pup resulting from a father daughter breeding .

I certainly wouldn't assume nor accept that the father line "consists mostly of dogs bred for temperament," not one shred of evidence to support this.

the pup's pedigree shows a framework of long , deep, and convenient before being thoughtful. 

wish you well.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Is 2-3 close?


----------



## goldenlyre (Mar 15, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> If it was an accidental breeding they should have told you and explained about the pedigree.


I agree 100%, I'm not happy about it but I can only hope for the best. As long as he turns out to be a good dog then the pedigree means nothing to me I just have to be vigilant with his health and temperament which I'm prepared to do, it just sucks that it happened like this


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry I don't buy the accidental breeding explanation.

he did breed this male Maximus Knight once - so there is intention to "be a breeder"

he sold you the dog 

he sold you the dog with registration papers -- why not reveal the situation , as in informed consent of the buyer , sell with a contract to spay / neuter and / or with limited registration.

I hope he is all the pup and dog you wish for -- but please do not breed .


----------



## goldenlyre (Mar 15, 2017)

carmspack said:


> sorry I don't buy the accidental breeding explanation.
> 
> he did breed this male Maximus Knight once - so there is intention to "be a breeder"
> 
> ...


No need to be sorry, I'm just trying to be hopeful that they didn't do this intentionally. What I don't get is that like you say ---- they sold me the registration papers as if I wouldn't find out? Perhaps I could write it off (in my head) as being ignorant, they should have been honest with me. 

I hope he is a good dog also, but honestly, even if he was the best dog in the entire world I never intended on breeding him before I even discovered this information.


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

goldenlyre said:


> No need to be sorry, I'm just trying to be hopeful that they didn't do this intentionally. What I don't get is that like you say ---- they sold me the registration papers as if I wouldn't find out? Perhaps I could write it off (in my head) as being ignorant, they should have been honest with me.
> 
> I hope he is a good dog also, but honestly, even if he was the best dog in the entire world I never intended on breeding him before I even discovered this information.


Honestly, I would straight out ask the breeder what the intentions were with this breeding. Say you saw the pedigree and noticed the inbreeding. 

I'm rather curious as to what the response would be.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I had an accidental brother/sister breeding. Didnt hide it. Placed pups in limited reg. Made sure health testing done on parents. It happened right before both were 24 months. So male got done, then the female after pups weaned. Did lots of research and talked with other breeders about possible outcomes. Something that was practiced widely in the past. Done mostly to set type.


----------



## goldenlyre (Mar 15, 2017)

vomlittlehaus said:


> I had an accidental brother/sister breeding. Didnt hide it. Placed pups in limited reg. Made sure health testing done on parents. It happened right before both were 24 months. So male got done, then the female after pups weaned. Did lots of research and talked with other breeders about possible outcomes. Something that was practiced widely in the past. Done mostly to set type.


Any possible outcomes you would be able to share here that I can look into? I'm going to be doing my own research as well


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Fodder said:


> Only a guess... on the assumption that the number in parenthesis is a birthdate(?) and/or the kennel practices litter letters when naming - it looks like cripple creek may have bred siblings a couple generations back. It's also my understanding that that's never okay.


No, the number in the parenthesis is the date that the dog was added to the AKC stud book. So, it wasn't a birthdate -- brother-sister mating, it was the maiden mating of both the sire and the dam, if the date was identical.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Then again, how is the dam listed as (06-17)? Is that an error. Carmen?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

goldenlyre said:


> I'm mostly looking for a companion pup and if I can do something along the lines of agility or something else, I'd love to but time will tell, you know?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are being too kind with the accidental litter. Frankly, I suffer from deep skepticism when it comes to the almighty oops litter. If you are keeping both males and females intact, than you have to be responsible. If you have a litter of purebreds, it probably isn't an accident. Did she charge you to buy this puppy? It wasn't an accident.

Yes some breeders do this to set type. The easiest way to get a champion from a champion is to breed right up close. That doesn't mean it isn't risky. It isn't disgusting, like we think of father/daughter incest. The reasons humans have that taboo is to protect children in their family of origin from being in a situation they are not mentally or physically ready for, as well as preventing birth defects, etc. Evenso, it is a breeding of convenience, probably on purpose, to get a litter, possibly to get a puppy out of a beloved dog, or to get a litter of puppies to sell. Doesn't really matter. You have your dog, don't hold it against him or her, just treat the dog the way you would treat any other dog and try not to worry about it. 

Don't breed your dog, and ask around, I am not usually in the crowd that says that.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

goldenlyre said:


> Any possible outcomes you would be able to share here that I can look into? I'm going to be doing my own research as well


Possible outcomes are any recessives the dogs have will likely come out in one or more of the puppies. For example, if you have Mega-E in the line, it is likely to have one or more pup with MegaE -- not sure if that is a recessive gene, but it certainly runs in lines. Anything where the dog needs to have it on both sides, the pups from the litter are more likely to be affected and not just carriers. 

Not sure what close in-breeding does to temperament. With fewer dogs to draw from in the gene pool, the chances of improving temperament go out the window. What the negative impact of a breeding like this on temperament might be interesting. My guess is any temperament issues would probably be present and possibly to a higher extent than in either the sire or dam. But I have nothing to go on with that, except that the puppies would be less likely to dodge any genes that affect temperament negatively. Would the same be true of stellar temperament?

Another problem is the self-fulfilling prophesy. We can sit here and expect your dog to be problematic, and so you will continue to search for problems in your dog, problems in character and health, and it is possible that how the dog is treated will effect your success or failure with the dog. The thing to remember is that this does not mean your dog will have problems, it means the risks are higher. So, keeping it it mind is one thing, but not obsessing about it is important too. 

I'm sorry. It's a good conversation, and understandable to want to know. Love your puppy, and jump every hurdle as it comes. GSDs have a lot of health and temperament problems, and yours may have no more than average.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

If it's a good breeder with good dogs I wouldn't be too concerned. Close breedings happen on occasion and are generally not extremely problematic unless it is multiple generations of close breedings. 

Some people do it on occasion to strengthen some traits. Perhaps they have a specific plan with one of the puppies for their breeding program, perhaps they plan to do an out rods and wanted a dog strong in their traits. 
If you are concerned it could help to contact them and ask about why they did the close breeding.

As many people have said animals aren't as concerned about 'incest' as humans are. Unhealthy animals in the wild will die off so if it causes complications it fixes its self. Of course this is a breeder but as long as the dogs are healthy I personally wouldn't be too concerned. Unless it was multiple generations of extreme inbreeding.

It's very common in racehorses where great grandchildren can be 'more related'(closer genetically) to a great grandparent than the grandparent's direct children. -There have been a lot of genetic disorders popping up in this though.


----------



## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

But there isn't just one instance of inbreeding in that line... if I'm reading it right there are several occasions where it happens.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

@KaiserAus

I might be missing the dogs? Could you point it out?
Keeping in mind that the sire's pedigree appears twice.


----------



## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

Ok don't mind me... I've figured it out now


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Ah darn, after I'd used paint to show the pedigree better. Haha.
Yeah father-daughter breeding with no other line or inbreeding.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote "Yeah father-daughter breeding with no other line or inbreeding."

that you know of . If you saw more of the pedigree there just might be .


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

selzer said:


> Possible outcomes are any recessives the dogs have will likely come out in one or more of the puppies. For example, if you have Mega-E in the line, it is likely to have one or more pup with MegaE -- not sure if that is a recessive gene, but it certainly runs in lines. Anything where the dog needs to have it on both sides, the pups from the litter are more likely to be affected and not just carriers.
> 
> Not sure what close in-breeding does to temperament. With fewer dogs to draw from in the gene pool, the chances of improving temperament go out the window. What the negative impact of a breeding like this on temperament might be interesting. My guess is any temperament issues would probably be present and possibly to a higher extent than in either the sire or dam. But I have nothing to go on with that, except that the puppies would be less likely to dodge any genes that affect temperament negatively. Would the same be true of stellar temperament?
> 
> ...


There was a 2-2 breeding of a legendary police dog that I could have gotten but I chose not to. Breeder is responsible and I asked why he chose to do this, he said the dog was very underappreciated during his lifetime and when people finally realized how special he was it was too late and he was trying to reproduce that dog because there wasn't enough of his offspring out there.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Julian G said:


> There was a 2-2 breeding of a legendary police dog that I could have gotten but I chose not to. Breeder is responsible and I asked why he chose to do this, he said the dog was very underappreciated during his lifetime and when people finally realized how special he was it was too late and he was trying to reproduce that dog because there wasn't enough of his offspring out there.


so were there offspring of this dog ?

who was the dog ? 

a black czech gsd ?


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

@carmspack

I was referencing what we have available to us. And I don't know about you but I think that having nearly 30 dogs in what we can see is pretty decent. It is clearly not every generation in this dogs pedigree and I'm sure just about any pedigree if you look far enough back in its lineage has inbreeding.

(Sorry if I seem snappish I'm just getting annoyed at people acting like every inbred animal is going to sprout 3 eyes and be a total disaster.)


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A father-daughter breeding will be more likely to produce anything that the sire was a carrier of, because the chances are great that the daughter inherited those genes, and with them on both side of the equation, the chances are excellent that one or more puppy will be effected. 

A breeder can have in 4 generations, never an instance of something like MegaE in his lines, and then breed closely, like father-daughter, and pop! suddenly you have a MegaE dog in your lines. Now we know, the dog/sire is a carrier for sure. If a dog is a carrier than he isn't necessarily going to have affected puppies, but he will produce carriers and possibly some that are not carriers if bred to a bitch free of the condition. 

There are MANY conditions that are hereditary or genetic. So, breeding closely like this is risky. Doing so, and letting the buyers find out when they get their pedigree in the mail, well, that just sucks. 

BTW, I chose MegaE because the condition ought to show up when the pup starts eating solid food, and before the puppies would be homed. So, little chance that his puppy has this condition -- just an example. 

I never said the puppy is likely to have 3 heads, but if their are conformation faults like soft ears, happy tail, etc, the puppy would be more likely to be affected. Except in how conformation effects health and agility, it is unimportant next to health. If you are going to breed closely like this, you should have as much information as possible on the sire and dam including as many health certificates as possible. Do we know if the sire and dam were tested for/certified free of HD, ED, DM, vWd, CERF, Cardiac, Thyroid, etc?


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

@selzer

I was just using a dramatic example. Many of the people I'm around associate inbreeding with deformities, they don't go the genetic recessive trait route.
Like they think polydactyl in cats is a freakish mutation that only happens when inbreeding occurs.

We'd need more information from the thread starter(from breeder) about this breeding since we don't have the health information on the parents and whether or not it was on purpose or accidental. 

If it was accidental or a test breeding to see what they are producing(recessive traits) the buyer should have certainly been informed. When we had an accidental son/mother(not GSDs) we didn't sell the puppies for the same price as the normal dogs or register them and all were spayed/neutered. None were bad dogs but it wasn't on purpose and the breeding wasn't what was wanted from the lines. They took after the female(obviously) too much. 

Although I can't really blame breeders for not wanting people to be super aware of the inbreeding. Humans have a very strong moral code against it and would shy away from dogs because of the stigma. Which also isn't a bad thing as it helps stop irresponsible/uneducated breeders from doing it.


----------



## goldenlyre (Mar 15, 2017)

selzer said:


> Do we know if the sire and dam were tested for/certified free of HD, ED, DM, vWd, CERF, Cardiac, Thyroid, etc?


As far as I can understand, the dam is health certified (is that the right term?) and was cleared, so now, knowing this information --- would it be safer to assume the sire was also?


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

goldenlyre said:


> As far as I can understand, the dam is health certified (is that the right term?) and was cleared, so now, knowing this information --- would it be safer to assume the sire was also?


It's highly likely if breeder owns both but I wouldn't assume he is. It also depends on what exactly the female has health certifications in. Does she have a wide range of health tests, or just a couple or one like OFA? See lots of dogs with no other tests than OFA. Also she isn't the exact same dog so she could test clear for things the male might not, even though she's his daughter. For example she could have OFA Good but he could have an OFA poor, or the German ratings which I can't remember right now. (There's some others too aren't there?) Or he could be a carrier for a disease(or have it) while she isn't(doesn't) or vice versa.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

kimbale said:


> I'd call that inbreeding, not linebreeding. I'm not a breeder and don't pretend to be, so I don't know why someone would do that, but I'd definitely ask the breeder why that decision was made.
> 
> Hope you have a great pup! Maybe mention it to his vet so y'all can keep aware.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


And get insurance on him.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm no breeder so I wouldn't consider myself an authority on the issue, but the closest I would go is 3-3 with my limited understanding unless someone gave me good reason to go closer and managed to somehow convince me. Crank's next breeding is going to be 3-3 on 3 different dogs in his pedigree. That's IMO quite tight a line breeding.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

goldenlyre said:


> As far as I can understand, the dam is health certified (is that the right term?) and was cleared, so now, knowing this information --- would it be safer to assume the sire was also?


Unfortunately, they did not certify them with the OFA. I don't know that the AKC lists OFA all the way back 4 generations on your pedigree, it gets too congested, but they do list it on the first few generations, and it is not listed. So, unless they are using penn-hip, what you have is no health screening. 

I second the idea of getting health insurance on the dog. If you do it now, then if something does crop up, the decisions you make will not be weighted as much by the cost-aspect. 

More and more it looks like a breeding of convenience, and rather irresponsible. I am sure there are a lot of nice dogs back there and your pup might be the greatest dog out there. But the breeder should have told you they did a sire-daughter breeding. I guess I am not impressed. 

2-3 used to be as close as you could go in Germany. That would be a grandsire and a great grandsire being the same dog. I am not saying I wouldn't go that close, but I feel a little more comfortable with 3-3, and that being an awesome dog or bitch. 

This question I have been going back and forth with in the last couple of weeks with a friend who has a couple of my dogs, and some pups out of them. Those pups are now two years old. A friend of hers has another of my dogs, and the question was asked about breeding the pup from the first two to the third. The third is probably my best breeding, 3-3 on a double world seiger, and these puppies are just special, I have two of them, one that his a year and the other a hear and a half -- 2 different bitches of the same lines. The thing is the pups are 2-3 on Jenna and Gispo, and the younger pup is a Bear(Jenna/Gispo)-Mufasa(Odessa/Herko) puppy, so the pups out of this breeding would have about 75% of their genes coming from Jenna and Gispo and More than their fair share out of Herko as well. No dog is free of every condition, whether they carry or are affected, there is something back there, and when you limit the gene pool to this level, you will find more health problems coming out. 

I did convince my friend that it wasn't a good idea, and might lead to real heartache. As breeders, we cannot prevent all heartache, but when we see something that should be avoided, we maybe can prevent some.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

So I looked up the breeder and I can find very little on them, if I found the right one? Only thing I could find was some puppies on a quick sell puppy site. Might not be the the same breeders the pups have the same birth date as yours. They'd apparently be _"great family or search and rescue dogs because of their bloodlines." _Not very specific, but it's an ad so not sure what else I'd expect...

I'm not very impressed by what I found, but I haven't talked to the breeder and I don't actually know them or their dogs so I couldn't say anything definite or make any real judgements.


----------



## goldenlyre (Mar 15, 2017)

I'm not going to lie when I say I feel really discouraged by the entire thing, but I'm just going to remain positive and not hold this against Apollo. We talked to the vet, and after getting a short lecture on how much better mutts are she told me there's not much to look out for etc etc and talked to us about getting his hips checked when he's two so on and so forth which absolutely is something that we are going to be doing. In the meantime, I'm looking to get him on a pet insurance sooner rather than later just in case something arises.


Also, after some hunting of my own, I found her on those quick puppy sell sites --- we however found them through a friend of a friend or some nonsense, had I *known* that the pups were on a site like that I would have definitely stayed away. 

Needless to say --- I'm not impressed either, but Apollo is a cute as **** pup so here's to hoping -crosses fingers-


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Get the insurance. Hopefully, it will be like bringing an umbrella and not having it rain. Enjoy your puppy. Who cares where he came from? It is worthwhile to ask, so that you know, but beyond that, it no longer matters. 

There is a ton of info on this site. Get that pup into some classes and show us how smart he is and how well-trained he can be.


----------



## SG Hernandez (Apr 15, 2017)

I believe this is 95% of the time, goldenlyre. You should have no worries.


----------

