# Your opinion on these pups...



## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

My wife and I finally have the right timing to get a GSD... we have seen 2 litters from different breeders. The first litter we were not impressed with the breeders environment and the care of the puppies. Was a really bad BYB in my eyes. Then we went to _( Kennel named removed by ADMIN)_ kennel and my lord were we impressed. Found exactly what we were looking for but it came at a price of 2500.00. Which is out of our budget, which is the 1200-1600 range. We dont need a show dog... just looking for a great family dog thats athletic. We live a pretty active lifestyle living on the lake and myself a sponsored mountain biker...we just love the stock look of a West German, its what I grew up with.

I know alot of people do not like dogs that are advertise on hoobly, but I ran across this ad and they guy was very knowledgeable of his dogs. Anyone have any opinions? I know they are sable but he does have west germans and plan on seeing them this coming weekend. The father is from the Vom Kraftwerk pedigree... level 3 Schutzhund and champion bloodlines. I attached the pics of the mom and dad and pups. Hes asking 1300.00 for a male puppy. 

Gorgeous German Shepherd Pups, Akc, Sable, Excellent German Lineage in Pinckney, Michigan - Hoobly Classifieds


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Do the parents have OFA hips and elbows done (or a European equivalent) ? Have the parents done anything besides hanging in the back yard? How about DM testing?

The pups at least look clean.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Are the parents health tested? Are they working or titled? Why is he charging you $200 more than he's advertising? What makes these puppies worth the same amount as from a breeder that is working and titling his dogs? Without a pedigree, I'm not sure you can get an answer to your question on whether they are worth the money.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You are in Michigan? I would contact Stephanie, she has an upcoming litter that may be of interest to you. Though I am not sure what price she is asking. 
I know you want the 'traditional' color pattern, generally that is what the showline is and SL's run higher. 

OR...if you want to bypass the puppy stage and get a nice young dog that has proven good temperament with hip/elbow clearance, pm Lisa who posted above. She has a really nice 14 month old bi-color for sale to an active pet home. I have his littermate and am super happy with the temperament and health. I also see another litter-mate weekly, and she is also a great pup. We train in IPO and these dogs are excellent trackers.


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

Good questions... I just texted him on the OFA and DM, see what happens. The sables are 1100 and the black and tans are 1300... no idea why the price difference.


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> You are in Michigan? I would contact Stephanie, she has an upcoming litter that may be of interest to you. Though I am not sure what price she is asking.
> I know you want the 'traditional' color pattern, generally that is what the showline is and SL's run higher.
> 
> OR...if you want to bypass the puppy stage and get a nice young dog that has proven good temperament with hip/elbow clearance, pm Lisa who posted above. She has a really nice 14 month old bi-color for sale to an active pet home. I have his littermate and am super happy with the temperament and health. I also see another litter-mate weekly, and she is also a great pup. We train in IPO and these dogs are excellent trackers.



Yes I am in Michigan... we really want to get a puppy. But thank you for the information!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

CFH said:


> Good questions... I just texted him on the OFA and DM, see what happens. The sables are 1100 and the black and tans are 1300... no idea why the price difference.


Because some breeders charge more for whatever reason...makes no sense. Especially when they ask more for females or vice versa or you pay extra to have full registration vs limited. I would really do some research on how to choose a breeder as this pup will be with you(hopefully) for over a decade.
Hoobly is not the place to look for good pups, IMO. Most good breeders don't have to advertise on there.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Click on the name in Jane's post - it's a link to Stephanie's website.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

CFH said:


> Good questions... I just texted him on the OFA and DM, see what happens. *The sables are 1100 and the black and tans are 1300..*. no idea why the price difference.


That is stupid. And has no reasoning other than he thinks the b/t's are worth more for some reason.


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> Because some breeders charge more for whatever reason...makes no sense. Especially when they ask more for females or vice versa or you pay extra to have full registration vs limited. I would really do some research on how to choose a breeder as this pup will be with you(hopefully) for over a decade.
> Hoobly is not the place to look for good pups, IMO. Most good breeders don't have to advertise on there.



I feel I am doing research... and that Im not going to any random BYB and buying some random puppy like alot of people on this site have done. I dont have 2000.00 plus to spend on a puppy from a breeders that are recommended on this site. Ive call 7 breeders from past threads that people have suggested... and MOST are 2500.00 or they wont have puppies for another 3-6 months. Kinda feel I AM doing the right thing and coming on this site and asking questions and getting opinions.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I took a look the website of the breeders that you liked - I can't comment on the dogs, I have no experience with show lines, but what stuck out to me is that they make some pretty big claims that are sure to impress newbies. 

Haven't looked at everything, but on their training page, they will train your dog for personal protection - They have Level 1 training wich is bite and hold until given a release command. Level II training, which is bite and hold, release on command, and guard (does not say if they train to re-engage if the bad guy tries to run away or attack the dog or person), and level III training, wich includes Level I and II skills, plus a transport (odd choice of term for escorting someone - but I know why they use this term, and will come to it in a minute). 

The three levels above are nothing more than exercises taken directly out of the IPO I level protection routine - my dog can do them, and I'm no protection trainer. 

The last exercise in the protection routine is the "Transport" where you as the handler, and your dog, escort the decoy and turn him in to the judge. When in real life would you EVER need to Escort a criminal somewhere on your own? In real life, if you are attacked and your dog engages and brings the criminal down, you'd yell for help and call the police. If you are alone and in an isolated area, the criminal will run away as soon as he can, instead of walking by your side in a controlled manner. 

The write-up is meant to impress those new to protection training - but it is pretty meaningless in real-world terms.


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> That is stupid. And has no reasoning other than he thinks the b/t's are worth more for some reason.



I also just texted him why the price difference in the sables and b/t's. It is stupid if he doesn't have a reason.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If your heart is set on a show-line, then save up a bit more and get one from a recommended breeder. Give your money to someone who does things right by their dogs, and by their buyers, not someone who only sees dollar signs when they put two dogs together to make puppies.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

CFH said:


> I also just texted him why the price difference in the sables and b/t's. It is stupid if he doesn't have a reason.


Any reason he can come up with won't make sense. What makes the b/t more valuable than the sable? 

Color is not related to health.
Color is not related to temperament.
Color is not related to working ability.

Color is just color.


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

Castlemaid said:


> I took a look the website of the breeders that you liked - I can't comment on the dogs, I have no experience with show lines, but what stuck out to me is that they make some pretty big claims that are sure to impress newbies.
> 
> Haven't looked at everything, but on their training page, they will train your dog for personal protection - They have Level 1 training wich is bite and hold until given a release command. Level II training, which is bite and hold, release on command, and guard (does not say if they train to re-engage if the bad guy tries to run away or attack the dog or person), and level III training, wich includes Level I and II skills, plus a transport (odd choice of term for escorting someone - but I know why they use this term, and will come to it in a minute).
> 
> ...


I would agree it was to impress... and no way in **** do I need my dog to attack people and need all that training. Looking for a family dog... a dog to take on the mountain bike trails with me, go hiking, go out on our boat. Thats it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

My point is - that if they "pad" the part about what they call protetion training - what else are they exagerating, padding, dressing up in fancy wording that is meant to impress newbies that don't know any better? So I'm not impressed, no matter how nice their facility, how prestigious the pedigrees of the dogs, or how knowledgeable they may sound. 

It's hard as a newbie to wade through all that - I hope you can take a big breath and slow down and ask more questions here so you can develop a sense of which breeders are trustworthy.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I took the kennel name out of your first post, as we have a no-breeder-bashing rule, and I didn't exactly post positive reviews of the web-site content. If anyone is curious about the kennel they can always PM you.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

CFH said:


> I feel I am doing research... and that Im not going to any random BYB and buying some random puppy like alot of people on this site have done. I dont have 2000.00 plus to spend on a puppy from a breeders that are recommended on this site. Ive call 7 breeders from past threads that people have suggested... and MOST are 2500.00 or they wont have puppies for another 3-6 months. Kinda feel I AM doing the right thing and coming on this site and asking questions and getting opinions.


Yes - you are doing the right thing by coming here.....definitely - and people are trying to give you solid information.


The litter you cite by link - OK - some thoughts on the background - the parents are NOT titled....but one comes from Kraftwerk and HIS sire was titled (pups there are 2500-3500) Kraftwerk is a master at marketing, getting much higher prices for pups that others, who would sell the same quality for 1500-2000....so my conclusion is that the seller may be justifying his pricing by what he paid for the sire....but without hip and elbow certs, DM clearances etc - I would walk away. Without that at a minimum, I would not pay more than 500/600 for those pups. At the 1200-1500 range you can find a puppy from health tested and at least titles on one side of the pedigree. I don't know who else you looked at as the kennel names are gone - but any big successful show kennel is investing a ton of money in their breeding stock in health testing, titles and showing, and that is pretty much the going rate for a good reputable showline breeder.....

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

CFH said:


> I feel I am doing research... and that Im not going to any random BYB and buying some random puppy like alot of people on this site have done. I dont have 2000.00 plus to spend on a puppy from a breeders that are recommended on this site. Ive call 7 breeders from past threads that people have suggested... and MOST are 2500.00 or they wont have puppies for another 3-6 months. Kinda feel I AM doing the right thing and coming on this site and asking questions and getting opinions.


To be honest, I would slow down some and while slowing down, save a bit more cash. Are you on facebook? There are some decent pages that are worth checking out. One other thing, I personally have seen a few of the dogs (in the link that was deleted) during trials, AD's were being earned, though the breeder had others handling her dogs. I know you don't want a 'show dog' but this breeder does invest into her program through showing.

Another breeder you should contact is Vom Buchman. I've also seen many of their pups, and older dogs at training, during trials. This is the original kennel, contact this one first: http://www.michigangermanshepherd.com/
Showlines and the price may be more in your range, though I can't confirm that. They may have a pet quality pup at a lower price. Most breeders now don't ever put prices on their sites or ads, it is always through communication that you get the actual price.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Wilmoth haus in Akron Ohio breeds decent showlines too....and I ***think*** they are in your price range.


Lee


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

Well Ill be making some more phone calls tomorrow from all your suggestions you all listed. Thanks for all the helpful comments! Ill keep you all updated on what route I go. I think I know now what to ask and what to expect from a breeder and of course Ill be doing more research.


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

Well I took the advice and found our breeder. We will picking up our puppy Saturday. We are using Cher Car Kennels in St. Johns Michigan. The pups parents are full OFA cert and have the temperament we are looking for. Hes going to be right around 9.5 weeks old. Thanks all!

Oh and hes 1500.00, just in our price range.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I hope you will have a good match. Did the breeder interview you? 
I googled them but this phrase made me question it (they breed 4 breeds)
"The typical Dutch Shepherd should work all day, and then snuggle with you on the couch that night. These dogs should be able to fit into whatever situation they find themselves in, and will not require a gifted handler." 
I cannot understand how you can say this of a good Dutchie.
I am allergic for the word 'snuggle'.


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> I hope you will have a good match. Did the breeder interview you?
> I googled them but this phrase made me question it (they breed 4 breeds)
> "The typical Dutch Shepherd should work all day, and then snuggle with you on the couch that night. These dogs should be able to fit into whatever situation they find themselves in, and will not require a gifted handler."
> I cannot understand how you can say this of a good Dutchie.
> I am allergic for the word 'snuggle'.



Yes they did interview me on how my lifestyle is and what I was looking for. I just noticed this... what is UKC?? Are UKC breeds not the same or up to par to the AKC?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It is a different registry. You can register an AKC dog with the UKC but not the other way around if I remember correctly. I would ask the breeder about it and also why they are not registered by AKC. Or call the AKC, maybe there is a reason.....


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

UKC puppies the same price as AKC????? And are you getting a Dutchie or a GSD???? And a working show cross???? is the dam the Ury Fuchsgraben female????

I know you were anxious to get a puppy...............that is the problem so often - people get a puppy because it is available......this place is breeding 4 breeds, has litters available all at once and uses UKC???? 


Lee


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I'm told they have been banned from registering with AKC.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The dutchies go for more than the GSD at that kennel....there is no AKC registering with them either. You could probably get the reason why by asking them. Thus the reason UKC is their 'registry' for GSD's.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Have you paid for the pup already? It is starting to sound scam-ish. It takes a lot for the AKC to ban a breeder.


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

Nope havent paid a cent... and I wont be giving them my money. I sent them a email asking whats the deal about the UKC and AKC... havent had a response yet. 

Alta Tollhaus has a puppy thats perfect for us but its 2500.00... been going back and forth with the breeder through emails. Just cant spend that kind of $$. I know they are well liked on this forum. 

Ill just keep chugging along til I find the right dog and breeder. You all have been very helpful. Thank you.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sounds like you dodged a bullet. It is hard to keep your wits about you when looking at pups but you have to listen to your inner voice. 
With my first GSD from Deja's breeder I had budgeted $1000.00 less than what he asked. But when I saw the quality of his dogs I remember my thoughts," Do I want to let go of this pup for these $1000?" Of course not! 
If you get a healthy and sound pup you will probably spend a lot less on vet costs.


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

A breeder got back to me and plan on looking at puppies tomorrow... hows this one add up? She has a litter that is 8 weeks and 2 pups that fit our needs of temperament, they are 2500. 
Home raised German shepherd puppies in Michigan | German shepherd breeders | Protection dogs | German shepherd puppies in Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Lansing, Troy, Gross Point, Michigan

I talked to my wife and we decided to pay the 2500 if we have too. I understand the waiting for the right dog for the right price. My wife and I just dont have that luxury of waiting. Reason being is that my wife has MS... we want kids in a few years and she needs to be off her medications for 1 year before we start trying for kids. So by that time I would like the dog to be trained. Its a time issue for us and we would like to get started now and not wait for 2-4 months for a birth of puppies and then wait... for what? So we can save 500-1000 bucks? I guess at lease we would have a really nice overpaid dog... LOL.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

CFH said:


> A breeder got back to me and plan on looking at puppies tomorrow... hows this one add up? She has a litter that is 8 weeks and 2 pups that fit our needs of temperament, they are 2500.
> Home raised German shepherd puppies in Michigan | German shepherd breeders | Protection dogs | German shepherd puppies in Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Lansing, Troy, Gross Point, Michigan
> 
> I talked to my wife and we decided to pay the 2500 if we have too. I understand the waiting for the right dog for the right price. My wife and I just dont have that luxury of waiting. Reason being is that my wife has MS... we want kids in a few years and she needs to be off her medications for 1 year before we start trying for kids. So by that time I would like the dog to be trained. Its a time issue for us and we would like to get started now and not wait for 2-4 months for a birth of puppies and then wait... for what? So we can save 500-1000 bucks? I guess at lease we would have a really nice overpaid dog... LOL.


I have seen dogs at training from this kennel. They do have drive and work ethic.
I just saw on fb that there are two females available from Shelby x Wenzel, they are adorable!


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> I have seen dogs at training from this kennel. They do have drive and work ethic.
> I just saw on fb that there are two females available from Shelby x Wenzel, they are adorable!



She said they have a full litter thats 8 weeks of med. drive... 2 males that would fit our needs. Thinking about going out there tomorrow to check it out.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Her mom also has some pups doesn't she?


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

She probably does then... Either way they are only like 45min away from us. Going to go out there and check it out. Ill bring some cash just in case. =) 

Did some research on them with good and this forum and they have been suggested quite a few times on a positive note.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

CFH said:


> She probably does then... Either way they are only like 45min away from us. Going to go out there and check it out. Ill bring some cash just in case. =)
> 
> Did some research on them with good and this forum and they have been suggested quite a few times on a positive note.


They train all the time, and I give them both(daughter and Mom) credit for their determination and dedication. And it isn't just training one dog, but maybe four in a session, so no rest in between!


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## dz0qp5 (Oct 12, 2004)

I got my boy from Stonehill Kennels, my friend also purchased from there and we are both very happy. Breeding stock is OFA'd hips and elbows, also DM tested. The pups are also reasonably priced.

https://www.facebook.com/StonehillKennels/?fref=ts


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Alta Tollhaus or this breeder both fall into parameters generally accepted here as reputable and good.....

Showline pups are generally higher priced....so only questions I would think about is history of health of other litters from either parent, or their siblings...

Good luck!

Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

CFH said:


> Nope havent paid a cent... and I wont be giving them my money. I sent them a email asking whats the deal about the UKC and AKC... havent had a response yet.
> 
> Alta Tollhaus has a puppy thats perfect for us but its 2500.00... been going back and forth with the breeder through emails. Just cant spend that kind of $$. I know they are well liked on this forum.
> 
> Ill just keep chugging along til I find the right dog and breeder. You all have been very helpful. Thank you.


I looked at Cher Car ages ago. She was fantastic. And more then willing to work with me, in spite of my lack of pedigree knowledge or interest in sport. A whole ton of her dogs work. Police, service and therapy dogs, easy enough to track. You may find that she uses UKC for the convenience, and I believe she has been breeding Parsons and Dutchies for a long time. Since both breeds would have only been registerable with the UKC initially, the Dutchies still are, it makes sense.
Some may not like her dogs but I would hesitate to call it a scam. She's been around a long while.
I just thought you should know that.


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## dz0qp5 (Oct 12, 2004)

Sabis mom said:


> I looked at Cher Car ages ago. She was fantastic. And more then willing to work with me, in spite of my lack of pedigree knowledge or interest in sport. A whole ton of her dogs work. Police, service and therapy dogs, easy enough to track. You may find that she uses UKC for the convenience, and I believe she has been breeding Parsons and Dutchies for a long time. Since both breeds would have only been registerable with the UKC initially, the Dutchies still are, it makes sense.
> Some may not like her dogs but I would hesitate to call it a scam. She's been around a long while.
> I just thought you should know that.


I don't have any personal experience with Cher Car, but I have heard generally positive things about them.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Cher Car... I have have heard okay things in the Dutchie world about them. I think the hard thing for so many of us is the number of breeds and the number of litters they produce. I do note that they have donated some of their pups to the Univ. of Penn Working Dog Program (focuses on human detection for disaster work). I wouldn't do it because I know other breeders (of dutchies that I prefer) but....


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

There is a new member here on the forum who just picked up a female puppy from this kennel for pet, problem is he has an adult female gsd at home. This breeder said this puppies parents dictate there will not be female/female aggression in the future?

Seems odd for an experienced reputable kennel?


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

Well people... I picked up my GSD. Hes from Vom Dinaburg. 9 weeks. 

I went to a number of breeders today and decided to go back to Dinaburg. They are just amazing breeders, spent alot time with us and the pup is amazing as are there dogs. I talked to Julie today at Alta Tollhaus and she also recommended Rita and knows here well. 

Havent decided on a name yet but it come soon. Just want to say thank you all for your guidance and opinions. Ill be on this forum for years to come.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Congrats! Now it is time to look into training venues....even if this will be a pet/companion, best to get into a few classes for socializing(meaning teaching pup to be neutral and confident, not a puppy free for all type situation)


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Awesome! Nice fluffy pup. Good luck with him.


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> Congrats! Now it is time to look into training venues....even if this will be a pet/companion, best to get into a few classes for socializing(meaning teaching pup to be neutral and confident, not a puppy free for all type situation)


I think we are going to go to Canine Resolution in waterford which is 8 min from our house. Its 8 classes for 200.00. They were recommend from my Vet. Ill check it out. 

Plan on making a petsmart run tomorrow... we need a few things. The rest Ill buy on amazon.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

if you want to do any sport, Backwoods K9 would be my suggestion....great group of misfits 
http://www.backwoodsk9.com/puppyclass.html


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## CFH (Feb 16, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> if you want to do any sport, Backwoods K9 would be my suggestion....great group of misfits


Havent decided if Ill do sports... but im keeping my options open. 


Thanks all, hes doing so good. Our maltipoo is in depression mode. Our pixiebob is doing great. started playing with him in the first 10min.


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## Ivanlotter (Jan 23, 2016)

I got a lot of negative comments when my first criteria for a new puppy was color. I want to explore this more in future.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

Congrats on your puppy and say bye bye to your nice fluffy white rug. LOL


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## Ivanlotter (Jan 23, 2016)

[B[/B]Enjoy the puppy!


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