# Breeding Prospect



## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

I have a 2 year old working line female GSD. She has recently passed with Good hips and Normal elbows with OFA. She has very solid nerves and is a wonderful family protection prospect. She has excelled in obedience. She is leery of strangers, but warms up quickly once told "ok". Only downfall....she is not AKC registered. Would you breed her?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

No.


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

Because AKC is a steller stand-up organization, or ???


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

No, a pedigree would be the first thing I would want. Otherwise I would never know whether I'm breeding her to an uncle, great grandfather, etc. Also without any information regarding her lineage I wouldn't know whether there was anything in her genealogy to be aware of regarding medical issues. GSD’s have a multitude of health or temperament issues which can crop up even with good breeding and planning from informed sources

I'd enjoy her as a treasured family pet but never as a breeding prospect.


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

I have her 5 generation pedigree.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

OK, where is she registered? CKC? (Continental Kennel Club), UKC? (United Kennel Club), somewhere else?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Can you post it? 

And what do you mean she's leery of strangers? How does she act? A dog with solid nerve shouldn't show fear of innocent strangers. Aloof is different than leery.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

NO

whether you approve or disapprove of AKC for any reason, it IS THE ONLY RECOGNIZED American registry..... BREED CLUBS - NOT THE AKC - are responsible for the breed standards and adherence - ie - the GSDCA is the one who promotes and approves of the GSD in the AKC ring........AKC is a database for registration of dogs and awards....no AKC papers, no way to PROVE pedigree and purebred....Continential, the ACR I think, even United KC - are not FCI recognized registries....

Too many GSDs in shelters, rescues etc....why add to the problem by producing and selling a puppy that has to be the low end economically due to no registration....

NO do not breed an unregistered dog.

Lee


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

I will try and post later when I have it in hand. 

Aloof is probably a better word. She barks when someone shows up in my driveway. I tell her it's ok, then she quits. She doesn't run up to them happy right away. She will stop barking, walk up to smell, and then she walks away. My male showline AKC registered dog loves absolutely everyone and has zero protection skills. But yet he should be deemed "breedable" since he comes from a pedigree of titled dogs. German Shepherds should alert you when things are "off". Not run up to just anyone and shower them with kisses. (By the way, he makes an amazing dog for family gatherings as all the children love to play with him). 
I should also add that I am not inquiring to breed her to make money. I have several family and friends who want a puppy from her. And I have followed the "protocol" and got her OFA certified.


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

A dog's worth is not determined by a piece of paper, be that paper from the AKC, UKC, CKC or the Pope. 
But, it does help prove the dog is worthy of reproducing in a world where dogs are a dime a dozen. 
If a dog has proven itself, exceptionally in form and fashion, to a knowledgeable person other than the biased owner, the dog has passed necessary and mandatory health clearances, been evaluated by a veterinarian and an unbiased, impartial, knowledgeable breed enthusiast/expert, the owner has pre-determined, signed contract homes lined up for the pups before the breeding is even fathomed AND the owner of the dog is financially, mentally and emotionally capable of being 100% responsible for the pups should something not work out, from the time they're born, until they die... then, and ONLY THEN would I consider breeding the dog. (And all of that holds true to any breeding situation, whether the dog is papered or not.)


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Lynn0608 said:


> I will try and post later when I have it in hand.
> 
> Aloof is probably a better word. She barks when someone shows up in my driveway. I tell her it's ok, then she quits. She doesn't run up to them happy right away. She will stop barking, walk up to smell, and then she walks away. My male showline AKC registered dog loves absolutely everyone and has zero protection skills. But yet he should be deemed "breedable" since he comes from a pedigree of titled dogs. German Shepherds should alert you when things are "off". Not run up to just anyone and shower them with kisses. (By the way, he makes an amazing dog for family gatherings as all the children love to play with him).
> I should also add that I am not inquiring to breed her to make money. I have several family and friends who want a puppy from her. And I have followed the "protocol" and got her OFA certified.


Who is she registered with? Is she SV registered then? Do you have a pedigree? Your girl is only half the equation of a breeding pair. 

And you said "leery". I would not want a puppy out of a leery dog, but that's me. Suspicious and aloof is fine, but nothing that I would consider fearful. If a dog is going to be overly suspicious, it better have high thresholds, especially if you're going to place them in pet homes.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Can I ask 'why' they want a puppy out of her? and she is only 1/2 the equation when it comes to reproducing

Some things to consider, even if she was registered, what if she had 10 puppies and you couldn't sell/give them away? where will the end up? What if those people who want one back out? what if at some time down the road a puppy buyer can't keep said puppy, are you willing to take it back?? What if your female has whelping issues, you do know it's a health risk and she could possibly die, tho not likely, but always a consideration..

I guess the above are some of the reasons why I have never bred a dog, it's to easy to go buy one from a reputable breeder..

I won't say yes or no, because it's not my call, but would I buy one? No, I want my dogs registered and want to know what's behind the dogs they are out of..

I do commend you for ofa'ing tho


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> NO
> 
> .Continential, the ACR I think, even United KC - are not FCI recognized registries....
> 
> ...


Now that last part I agree with. Too many GSD's in shelters, rescues etc... But the registration doesn't matter. My AKC registered beautiful West German Showline Tasha came from rescue.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Leery of strangers wonderful family protection prospect to breed unpapered pets? People who know how to handle protection/aggression would never buy the pups produced, people who want lovey pets will deem the pups 'aggressive' and dump them (or put to sleep which is so popular right now). You really would better breed your American shepherd if you must, less harm will be done.


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

They want a pup from her for multiple reasons. Her health, temperament, structure, drive and confidence in knowing the dog. 

Again, aloof is a better word. My dog has never bit anyone.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

My breeder has lots of experience whelping pups. Last spring, his wife's beloved dog, whom she trained and titled herself, died while giving birth. At the vets. Only one puppy survived, and he died less than 48 hours later too. 

These are very experienced people with lots of resources, trusted vets, proper facilities, etc. Things can always go wrong. 

Something to think about. Just because it's natural doesn't guarantee safety. There are thousands of dogs being bred. If your friends and family like what they see, encourage them to start researching breeders and breedings. You'll be surprised at how few of them actually end up getting a pup.


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

Thank you to those that answered my question with your opinions. And although I appreciate other's comments about why one shouldn't even breed to begin with, I was asking more about the dog specifically. Again, thank you to those you gave your opinions whether for or against, and why. I will advise of something....I have been an owner for 30+ years and have been around a lot of GSD's. I have also been researching and been in the market for another for quiet some time, and for me, honesty is one of the most important things with dealing with a breeder. You'd be amazed on how many dishonest breeders are out there, trying to pass off dogs that are unhealthy. Or breeding ONLY because the grand-sire was a V1. To me, that is as unethical as breeding a non-registered is to you. Just because a dog's parents are certified doesn't mean the dog will be. And that is the biggest misconception. Hope you all have a great day and thanks again! Cheers!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

One problem with the modern dog market is normal people not breeding for a list of reasons and leaving it to people breeding for pure profit. There wouldn't be breeds left if all the spay crew had their way. Even regular people looking for a decent priced decent dog can't find it and are pushed to puppy mills and pet stores. It certainly is a hard decision to make and what to do with up to 12 pups all with out papers. Maybe it is easy to find decent homes but I wouldn't like to do it really. At the same time there are good dogs sitting in kennels in rescues with no body to love them. It is not easy.


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

MadLab said:


> One problem with the modern dog market is normal people not breeding for a list of reasons and leaving it to people breeding for pure profit. There wouldn't be breeds left if all the spay crew had their way. Even regular people looking for a decent priced decent dog can't find it and are pushed to puppy mills and pet stores. It certainly is a hard decision to make and what to do with up to 12 pups all with out papers. Maybe it is easy to find decent homes but I wouldn't like to do it really. At the same time there are good dogs sitting in kennels in rescues with no body to love them. It is not easy.


I totally agree. I have a purebred altered male who came from a shelter. He is my biggest love. Not all shelter dogs or unregistered dogs are scum. My babies are wonderful additions to my family, are raised in my home, have access to a huge yard, get socialized, have jobs and are fed quality food. There are a lot of people out there like me who want a pet to love, and not just into it for showing a dog, or selling pups at $2500 a pop.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lynn, I would say this is a general member forum with a smaller group of highly experienced folks, some of whom would breed an occasional unregistered and untitled dog because, based on their deep knowledge of the breed, they see something they want to produce working stock. 

Sadly, it won't wind up in the mainstream as you know and impact the breed due to lack of pedigree. 

This is your 6th post and, in all fairness, we know nothing about you, your experience with the breed, etc. What other advice would you give someone given that information? So far the credentials listed for the dog is she has not bit anyone, has cleared OFA, and you think she has a great temperament. Not sure what you are looking for. You have the right to breed her with or without outsider support.

EDIT- $2500 a pop and V1 ratings all sounds like showlines but you say yours is working line. More like $1000-$1500, if that. And probably not a profit involved if you look at associated costs of titling, breeding, x-rays, koering etc.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Lynn0608 said:


> Not all shelter dogs or unregistered dogs are scum.


No one said they were scum or they couldn't be fantastic dogs, the question you asked was whether we agreed with you breeding her even though she's not AKC registered.

Your dog could be wonderful, that's not being denied. But the proof is in the pudding so to speak. That's why breeders who truly strive to better the breed spend so much time, money, and effort into researching pedigrees to purchase the right dog, titling and health clearances just to see if the dog is breed worthy and that's just with their dog not including what they want from a stud! It’s one thing to say "my dog has a great temperament" it's another to say "my dog has completed X,Y,Z under outside judges who are impartial (or should be, but that's another can of worms ).

A good pedigree is just the starting point which is why AKC and CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) in North America are needed, researching the genetic background of a dog is key to making an informed decision. As I already stated, you can hope that your dog doesn't produce HD, or you lesson your chances but finding two dogs who are generations deep with good hips. You cannot do this without a proper pedigree for both parents

One thing that you can do is get outside opinions that can evaluate your dog properly. Find a mentor who knows GSD well who can tutor you into looking into whether your dog truly makes the cut and therefore can look for a stud just as impressive. If you're going to bring a litter of puppies into this world why not give them the best chance possible of being great? A good mentor will guide you from step one to the day the puppies go to their new homes.


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> Lynn, I would say this is a general member forum with a smaller group of highly experienced folks, some of whom would breed an occasional unregistered and untitled dog because, based on their deep knowledge of the breed, they see something they want to produce working stock.
> 
> Sadly, it won't wind up in the mainstream as you know and impact the breed due to lack of pedigree.
> 
> ...


My comment about the price of pup was a generalized statement. I have showlines as well. I have done extensive research and have found more shady breeders than I care to mention, and that was my only point. It ties in with the idea of "you shouldn't breed her because she doesn't have the piece of paper to go along with her". That was my only point of that. And no, you don't know how extensive I am involved with the breed or what my knowledge is. But that just means most of you just assume I don't have knowledge and shouldn't breed, instead of asking further questions. It's all good!  Because yes, in the end, I will be the one to make the decision. I just thought I would ask the "experts" for their opinions.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Lynn0608 said:


> I have a 2 year old working line female GSD. She has recently passed with Good hips and Normal elbows with OFA. She has very solid nerves and is a wonderful family protection *prospect.* She has excelled in obedience. She is leery of strangers, but warms up quickly once told "ok". Only downfall....she is not AKC registered. Would you breed her?


Once she is proofed in her training(which means some pressure has been placed so you can see how she works through it) and you have all your ducks in a row(proper health testing, proof of pedigree) how will you decide which male to breed her to? Are you familiar with pedigree matching to hopefully bring out the best in what is produced? 
If you are actively training with her, keep it up and hopefully find a local good GSD breeder that can mentor you if this is really what you want to do. But breeding one litter for your family is not a good reason to breed, IMO. Instead, maybe direct the family back to the breeder you got your female from and possibly they can get one of her relatives.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lynn0608 said:


> My comment about the price of pup was a generalized statement. I have showlines as well. I have done extensive research and have found more shady breeders than I care to mention, and that was my only point. It ties in with the idea of "you shouldn't breed her because she doesn't have the piece of paper to go along with her". That was my only point of that. And no, you don't know how extensive I am involved with the breed or what my knowledge is. But that just means most of you just assume I don't have knowledge and shouldn't breed, instead of asking further questions. It's all good!  Because yes, in the end, I will be the one to make the decision. I just thought I would ask the "experts" for their opinions.


My opinion is that everyone is an expert on the internet. You want expert, you go to the experts you know. 

Forums are great and I hope you stay and participate as they give you alternate viewpoints on things that are still up to you to research and perhaps you have things to share.

...but this is definitely a broad based GSD forum with a mix of pet owners and breeders and folks with a ton of experience working dogs as well...


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

Shade said:


> A good pedigree is just the starting point which is why AKC and CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) in North America are needed, researching the genetic background of a dog is key to making an informed decision. As I already stated, you can hope that your dog doesn't produce HD, or you lesson your chances but finding two dogs who are generations deep with good hips. You cannot do this without a proper pedigree for both parents


Sadly, I purchased a showline male who has no HD in his bloodlines through the past 3 generations. Low and behold, he has Moderate HD at less than a year old. I realize the importance of TRYING to lessen it, but there will never be a guarantee. As we all should know, HD is not only hereditary, but also environmental. But again, I did make sure my girl has good hips and normal elbows. 

Thanks again for your input!


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> My opinion is that everyone is an expert on the internet. You want expert, you go to the experts you know.
> ...


True that! I have read a lot of these on here for quite some time, but never set up an account to participate in responses or postings until today. I am more involved with Pedigree Database forums. I just thought I would check out the peeps here too.

Thanks again for your insight!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don't know whether you should breed your dog or not, but some of the best working dogs out there are unregistered KNVP Mals and Ds's. I believe registries do more harm than good.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Still no pedigree to post? Is she on pedigree database?


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Still no pedigree to post? Is she on pedigree database?


No, I do not have access right now to it. She is not on PDB, otherwise I'd post a link. She does not have an online pedigree available. It's in paper format and I am not at home.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What are her parents names? What kennel is she from?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Gotcha. You said you've been on pedigree database for a while... you should put her on there. It would help the "experts" analyze when asking for this kind of advice. If you're really interested in an answer to your question, you really should post it.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I had a $20 shelter GSD-no papers-she was definitely not scum-awesome dog -loved to work and wanted nothing more than to please me-never would have bred her though-the expectation when you get a dog from a shelter is that you don't breed them-I think in Holland they have a different attitude towards breeding papers aren't as important and they focus more on the work ethic-here I think it might be hard to find a quality male-if the female is not registered-but not sure


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

holland said:


> I had a $20 shelter GSD-no papers-she was definitely not scum-awesome dog -loved to work and wanted nothing more than to please me-never would have bred her though-the expectation when you get a dog from a shelter is that you don't breed them-I think in Holland they have a different attitude towards breeding papers aren't as important and they focus more on the work ethic-here I think it might be hard to find a quality male-if the female is not registered-but not sure


I have an AKC showline male lined up for a stud. And my female is not a shelter dog. She just doesn't have AKC papers.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Lynn0608 said:


> I have an AKC showline male lined up for a stud.


Your friends and family want puppies out of him too?

Or is this AKC show line going to be bred to your working line girl?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I have decided this will be my response to these "should I breed" threads.

I personally, would never, ever, get a puppy from you. As a perspective buyer, I look for someone who health tests their dogs, knows the pedigrees, can explain, based on pedigree, why the two dogs that were put together were a good match, is knowledgeable on pedigrees, works their dogs in SchH, the sport originaly created specifically to test the nerve, stability, and clearness of the German Shepherd dog, titles and certifies their dogs, shows success from their lines based on breeding stock being titled, progeny being titled, and working dogs throughout (SAR, K9, Service Dog, etc....). I want the breeder to PROVE the dog's nerve and stability....just saying the dog is "sound" and a "great dog with kids" will never.ever. be. enough. 

Now, if this breeder has proven knowledge through a breeding program(titling, certifying, competing, etc), hasn't yet titled the bitch of the litter, but is someone that I know to be on top of their game....I MAY consider a pup from the litter....but most likely I would wait till the bitch has proven herself.

SO....you can breed whatever dog you want. But you would never get most of those on here, or those truly knowledgeable about the true standard of the breed, to take a puppy from you. I personally, would consider you a backyard breeder, until you prove yourself and your dogs in the way's I have listed....and not just the minimum health tests, but everything I listed. Good luck.


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> I have decided this will be my response to these "should I breed" threads.
> 
> I personally, would never, ever, get a puppy from you. As a perspective buyer, I look for someone who health tests their dogs, knows the pedigrees, can explain, based on pedigree, why the two dogs that were put together were a good match, is knowledgeable on pedigrees, works their dogs in SchH, the sport originaly created specifically to test the nerve, stability, and clearness of the German Shepherd dog, titles and certifies their dogs, shows success from their lines based on breeding stock being titled, progeny being titled, and working dogs throughout (SAR, K9, Service Dog, etc....). I want the breeder to PROVE the dog's nerve and stability....just saying the dog is "sound" and a "great dog with kids" will never.ever. be. enough.
> 
> ...


Thanks for judging, being you know nothing about me and what titles my dogs may or may not have, what experience I may or may not have, and what knowledge I may or may not have. So before you insult me by calling me a BYB, ask questions.  Wow!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Lynn0608 said:


> Thanks for judging, being you know nothing about me and what titles my dogs may or may not have, what experience I may or may not have, and what knowledge I may or may not have. So before you insult me by calling me a BYB, ask questions.  Wow!


You have no experience....you have no idea what pedigrees match, you want to put a showline with a working line. I would place money that you've never trained been to let alone in a IPO trial, never worked a dog in protection, and have had GSDs for years....but as pets....the reason I think this is because of everything you have said already. People who come on here asking to breed, that know there stuff, know *off the top of their head* the names of sires and dams, minimum, but most know several lines back and have a much more respectable goal than, "pets for friends and family." They use terms like "aloof," not "leary," they talk about protection as a "prospect" after working the dog....they don't come on and say "he's a good protection prospect." They talk about performance during bitework, how he/she flips nicely from prey/defense drive, the grip, the calmness, the solidity, the way he/she handles pressure......excuse me....If I am completely wrong, please, I'd love to know the titles and avenues you've worked the dogs through....

I'm done sugar coating things for people on here that think the responses are too harsh to prospective breeders that are clearly, completely, unknowledgeable....again, I'll eat my hat if OP has done anything beyond health test. Bottom line, neither I nor a very very large percentage of the members here would ever ever take a puppy from you, for free...let alone buy one....that's just the truth. If you want to have that low of a standard for your "breeding program" by all means. If you want to have knowledgeable people not considering you a byb and showing interest in your lines and dogs, then look at my previous post and get a mentor who does those things. :shrug:


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> You have no experience....you have no idea what pedigrees match, you want to put a showline with a working line. I would place money that you've never trained been to let alone in a IPO trial, never worked a dog in protection, and have had GSDs for years....but as pets....the reason I think this is because of everything you have said already. People who come on here asking to breed, that know there stuff, know *off the top of their head* the names of sires and dams, minimum, but most know several lines back and have a much more respectable goal than, "pets for friends and family." They use terms like "aloof," not "leary," they talk about protection as a "prospect" after working the dog....they don't come on and say "he's a good protection prospect." They talk about performance during bitework, how he/she flips nicely from prey/defense drive, the grip, the calmness, the solidity, the way he/she handles pressure......excuse me....If I am completely wrong, please, I'd love to know the titles and avenues you've worked the dogs through....
> 
> I'm done sugar coating things for people on here that think the responses are too harsh to prospective breeders that are clearly, completely, unknowledgeable....again, I'll eat my hat if OP has done anything beyond health test. Bottom line, neither I nor a very very large percentage of the members here would ever ever take a puppy from you, for free...let alone buy one....that's just the truth. If you want to have that low of a standard for your "breeding program" by all means. If you want to have knowledgeable people not considering you a byb and showing interest in your lines and dogs, then look at my previous post and get a mentor who does those things. :shrug:


So angry. Life is so short. Lighten up, eh?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I wouldn't breed her. The owners of my last GSD did this, because they wanted another one, they had family members that wanted one...yeah, they had 7 great homes picked out. Whoops, they had 13 pups on their hands! They ended up selling some through newspaper ads, and I could never do that - I'd never trust someone enough, that's the truth, I'd worry too much about them. I'd rather send the people who want a GSD to a breeder I had faith in instead of breeding myself.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Lynn0608 said:


> So angry. Life is so short. Lighten up, eh?


Ha, no...not angry at all....just telling you that you have very very low standards, and google is not the way you know how to breed dogs (I'm speaking to your "research.") You can breed whatever dogs you want to....it's a free country, and no skin off my back. Just letting you know, most on here or anyone knowledgeable about the GSD standard, would consider you a 100% byb, and would not be interested in a puppy from you. If you're okay with that, whatever, like I said....no skin off my back. I'll go to a reputable breeder that fits the description of my first post, you breed your dog for your friends, and life will go on.


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## Lynn0608 (Sep 10, 2013)

I will go back to PDB now where informed, quality post responders are polite and helpful. I have IPO3, KKL1, SCHH3 titled dogs. I wanted an honest opinion from people without knowing my background. And I received it. And it just so happens I have a female who isn't AKC registered, but have numerous people who want a pup, as they know my background, what I have done with my dogs and that I don't raise my dogs in kennels with the exception of the show ring. Ta ta. Game over.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Lynn0608 said:


> I will go back to PDB now where informed, quality post responders are polite and helpful. I have IPO3, KKL1, SCHH3 titled dogs. I wanted an honest opinion from people without knowing my background. And I received it. And it just so happens I have a female who isn't AKC registered, but have numerous people who want a pup, as they know my background, what I have done with my dogs and that I don't raise my dogs in kennels with the exception of the show ring. Ta ta. Game over.


That's great! That you work the dogs, I mean......why not enter with that....now I'm suspicious maybe you were trying to get a rise out of people....silly silly. ;-) Have a great life.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Lynn0608 said:


> I will go back to PDB now where informed, quality post responders are polite and helpful. I have IPO3, KKL1, SCHH3 titled dogs. I wanted an honest opinion from people without knowing my background. And I received it. And it just so happens I have a female who isn't AKC registered, but have numerous people who want a pup, as they know my background, what I have done with my dogs and that I don't raise my dogs in kennels with the exception of the show ring. Ta ta. Game over.


So if you're this experienced? Why even bother asking the question from total strangers? 

For a new member, you know how to push hot button topics and questions that have been discussed and have gotten people banned here very recently. It's almost like you knew how people were going to react to your question and just wanted to say "told you so". 

I was thinking this from the second you started this thread, but do you really have a dog you wanted to breed or was this just a test to see how people would respond?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> So if you're this experienced? Why even bother asking the question from total strangers?
> 
> For a new member, you know how to push hot button topics and questions that have been discussed and have gotten people banned here very recently. It's almost like you knew how people were going to react to your question and just wanted to say "told you so".
> 
> I was thinking this from the second you started this thread, but do you really have a dog you wanted to breed or was this just a test to see how people would respond?


Yeah, I felt like there was lying happening somewhere....oh well, now I have a response for all the "should I breed posts" on here....just the first paragraph of my original post...what *I* would look for in a breeder.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Lynn0608 said:


> I will go back to PDB now where informed, quality post responders are polite and helpful. I have IPO3, KKL1, SCHH3 titled dogs. I wanted an honest opinion from people without knowing my background. And I received it. And it just so happens I have a female who isn't AKC registered, but have numerous people who want a pup, as they know my background, what I have done with my dogs and that I don't raise my dogs in kennels with the exception of the show ring. Ta ta. Game over.


Hmmm.....IPO3 and SchH3 are the same thing.....


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

lynn0608 said:


> i will go back to pdb now where informed, quality post responders are polite and helpful.


 lol


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

DaniFani said:


> Hmmm.....IPO3 and SchH3 are the same thing.....


they used to not always be though  very little difference, but they were separate titles just a year or two ago


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup.

Similar to the "Lookin' to breed my dog" thread recently. 








DaniFani said:


> Yeah, I felt like there was lying happening somewhere....oh well, now I have a response for all the "should I breed posts" on here....just the first paragraph of my original post...what *I* would look for in a breeder.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

crackem said:


> they used to not always be though  very little difference, but they were separate titles just a year or two ago


Huh, today I learned! What area were they different in? Just curious.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Since i've started in dog sports, (early 2000's) there hasn't really been any difference other than one was SV related and the other FCI regulated. subtle differences in judging from what I heard, but I never competed in an IPO trial till Schh was no more and it was all IPO. I only ever did SchH trials before that.

One difference I was told, but obviously never experienced was in SchH you could go pick up your dog out of the blind for after the HB at the SchH I level. In IPO they said it was always a call out. Not sure if that's true or not. 

But earlier, pre 2000's, I guess they were a bit more different, but you'd have to ask someone involved longer than I've been because I don't know  sorry.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lynn0608 said:


> My male showline AKC registered dog loves absolutely everyone and has zero protection skills. But yet he should be deemed "breedable" since he comes from a pedigree of titled dogs.


Deemed breedable by who? AKC registration by itself means no such thing, there's a lot more to it than that.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lynn0608 said:


> I will go back to PDB now where informed, quality post responders are polite and helpful. .


Uh? How long have you been on PDB?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I KNOW this forum is way nicer than PDB! lol


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Lynn0608 said:


> I will go back to PDB now where informed, quality post responders are *polite and helpful.*


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I'm on PDB, and I'm thinking if you posted this scenerio over there, they'd eat you up and spit you out for breakfast, absolutely no insult intended.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Just going to say that I agree with Dani 100%. Papers don't make a dog breed worthy. You have to PROVE the dog in front of you is breed worthy - not base the idea that it 'might be' because of all the titles in the pedigree. 



Lynn0608 said:


> I will go back to PDB now where informed, quality post responders are *polite *and *helpful*.


BAHAHAHA! Sorry, _what_?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I definitely agree that papers mean nothing in terms of breed-worthiness. The only reason I'd want papers is to see the lineage, see who is there, and see what I might end up with. Unfortunately, you can say you have a pedigree for the dog, but without the papers, you have absolutely no idea if that pedigree is real or not (not to say AKC pedigrees aren't ever forged, but the likeliness is lower). All of it begs the question of, if the dog has a known pedigree (one that is supposedly stellar)...why are they not registered?

OP comes on, asking for opinions giving all the classic red-button flags (fearful dog, no papers), and then scoffs at the very honest and very reasonable responses saying she knows more than the responders. I smell a troll.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What if this female came from a really well known breeder who we all respected, would this change your opinions?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

^ I was just going to say, she may have gotten her dog from Gustav!


:wild:


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> What if this female came from a really well known breeder who we all respected, would this change your opinions?


Not mine. A dog, before being bred, needs to prove its breed worthiness individually. 
No matter what breeder, what lines, what country, etc. it came from. The lineage doesn't automatically deem a dog breed worthy - period. 

I like to think of it this way... 
People who expect dogs to be breed worthy because of their lineage forget how different sons and daughters can be from the sires/dams, and even MORE different than their grandsires/granddams, and so on. I know I'm not exactly like either of my parents or grandparents. Why would it be different for dogs?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> What if this female came from a really well known breeder who we all respected, would this change your opinions?


No. Honestly, not at all. My dog's breeder did that....tried to ride the coat tails of breeders that put all the work in, and then my dog's breeder tried to sell her pups based on the certs/titles/history of the other breeder's dogs....and my dog is a mess, significant heart murmur, allergies, not super stable...because his breeder took dogs from different breeders, didn't know what either parent's pedigree brought to the table genetically, and she *did* do health testing. Also, non-breedable (word?) dogs come from great breeding stock all the time. I know a police K9 instructor who had two stellar police dogs that he wanted puppies out of. Bred them, and not one of the puppies was suitable for police work (I don't know anything about pedigrees and what he did to match pedigrees). 

To me, it isn't just two great dogs either...it's the breeders knowledge about pedigrees, genetics, and the best blend. But that's just what my standards are for spending my money now....some people may think that's a little too much. :shrug:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> What if this female came from a really well known breeder who we all respected, would this change your opinions?


If a really well known breeder would sign on with an anonymous user name, give sketchy info, and then expect any different response than was given, I would be surprised. To me, using your real name makes you a LOT more credible.

No for me, I already stated there were some who could do this to produce prospects for a working breeding - assuming they knew what they had and what they were doing. 

To come here and ask for general forum advice though if you are at that level would be just playing games with the board members. I would not respect that kind of behavior one bit.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Konotashi said:


> Not mine. A dog, before being bred, needs to prove its breed worthiness individually.
> No matter what breeder, what lines, what country, etc. it came from. The lineage doesn't automatically deem a dog breed worthy - period.
> 
> I like to think of it this way...
> People who expect dogs to be breed worthy because of their lineage forget how different sons and daughters can be from the sires/dams, and even MORE different than their grandsires/granddams, and so on. I know I'm not exactly like either of my parents or grandparents. Why would it be different for dogs?


This! My breeder was also breeding dogs, bragging and marketing based on grandsires and granddams, and worse, *great* grandsires and granddams(I know...I am ashamed that I was so naive, but it also makes me demand a lot now).....if you don't work the parents, but the grandparents are worked....where does it stop? So the grandparents are worked, and then someone comes along and wants to breed their "great dog" out of your unproven dam/sire and says, "well the great grandsire was a world champion" At this point in the line, it's so muddled, with so many dogs that haven't proven themselves....how do you know at all what you have as a breeder or more so, as a buyer....my GSD is a great example....you don't.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's that twice in the last few days someone has posted very generic advice about breeding their 'nice dog'. 

Then turn around with all kinds of supposed creds.

Just sayin.....quite a coincidence.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It's that twice in the last few days someone has posted very generic advice about breeding their 'nice dog'.
> 
> Then turn around with all kinds of supposed creds.
> 
> Just sayin.....quite a coincidence.


Agreed, I need a more un-trusting-eye.....it gets me in trouble. I would be the worst kind of character in a movie and believe the bad guy wasn't bad and I would be killed off very quickly....


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I think this person wanted to sit back and watch this thread burn....


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Awwww no way.

I'm sure you got a good radar. We need more people who give the benefit of the doubt, it was just a thread on the net. 

You don't want to be like this..... aranoid: All the time~ 



DaniFani said:


> Agreed, I need a more un-trusting-eye.....it gets me in trouble. I would be the worst kind of character in a movie and believe the bad guy wasn't bad and I would be killed off very quickly....


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think it would make a difference to me, because I usually want to "do" something with my dogs and that would mean they would need to be registered, altho I usually spay/neuter so I guess I could always do a PAL thing.

I think this forum was an "experiment" for the poster or looking for validation? 

I don't recall seeing anything like this posted on pdb tho there are a zillion posts there..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To be honest, the AKC registration WOULD be a deal-breaker for me (moreso than a lack of titles), as a prospective puppy buyer. I don't actually enter any AKC events, but it is the recognized registry in this country. Without it I can't show my dog in the other venues I prefer (SV, UKC), could not even compete in sport evens (can't ILP/PAL because I don't neuter my males for no reason), no breed survey, etc. The AKC papers don't tell me the quality of the dog, but not having them severely limits the types of training and activities I like to do with my dogs. GSDs are so popular it's not that hard to find people breeding the same quality, same lines, same price, and all the paperwork in order. JMHO


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Liesje said:


> The AKC papers don't tell me the quality of the dog, but not having them severely limits the types of training and activities I like to do with my dogs.


Yeah, same.

Plus I think in the future, at least as long as I'm still actively competing in stuff, I'm going to try to keep my dogs intact. It seems kind of stupid to take them out of the gene pool if they're good examples of whatever breed and actively being worked/shown somewhere.

I figure if I'm going to go to all the trouble of finding the best possible dog for me, then sink thousands of dollars and hours into the dog's career, it might as well have some chance to benefit some prospective puppy person down the road. No papers = no chance of that happening, since the only prospective puppy people who'd care about the stuff I do are the ones who'd demand AKC registration.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Liesje said:


> To be honest, the AKC registration WOULD be a deal-breaker for me (moreso than a lack of titles), as a prospective puppy buyer. I don't actually enter any AKC events, but it is the recognized registry in this country. Without it I can't show my dog in the other venues I prefer (SV, UKC), could not even compete in sport evens (can't ILP/PAL because I don't neuter my males for no reason), no breed survey, etc. The AKC papers don't tell me the quality of the dog, but not having them severely limits the types of training and activities I like to do with my dogs. GSDs are so popular it's not that hard to find people breeding the same quality, same lines, same price, and all the paperwork in order. JMHO


I agree. 

Ozzy isn't registered, and the only thing I can do with him really is flyball and some agility. Not that I'm complaining, because we both LOVE flyball, and I'm sure he'll love agility too whenever I can afford it, but it would be nice to be able to do obedience with him, maybe rally. Can't do AKC agility with him, unfortunately. 

But that's my fault, not his. 
Most people blame the dogs they get for something that isn't the dog's fault. 

I refuse to neuter him, and I even sent an e-mail to AKC if a vasectomy would be acceptable for sterilization. Nope. They have to be neutered for the PAL.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, I doubt the OP's family and friends care one way or another about AKC registration...they just want a dog*" for multiple reasons. Her health, temperament, structure, drive and confidence in knowing the dog." * Wonder what they'd do with a puppy if they aren't able to register for competitions..... dogparks, and swimming/hiking fetch family companion, that's surely enough reason to breed.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> WWondeell, I doubt the OP's family and friends care one way or another about AKC registration...they just want a dogr what they'd do with a puppy if they aren't able to register for competitions..... *dogparks, and swimming/hiking fetch family companion, that's surely enough reason to breed*.


Sarcasm?? lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Why breed if the progeny are kind of a dead end? If someone wants to be taken seriously as a breeder, keep progeny from your own breedings and prove that THEY are breedworthy. 

Why is the female not AKC registered, or not eligible (two different things)?


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