# In over my head



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I've posted off and on about the on-going issues with Freya and I think I'm in over my head. 

She is still terrified of my husband. Even the slightest change in routine makes her anxious and she starts chewing, on anything! The termite inspectors came this week. The guy was here less than 10 minutes, so I put the dogs in the bedroom. Freya crawled into the closet and destroyed 3 shoes. 

She is majorly attached to me. She went through a stage when I was sick where she started growling at my husband if he came near me. That has ended, though she still won't willingly eat if he has touched her food dish. She was never introduced to children before living with us, so she is very uncertain about most of them. She's terrified of them if they are making any kind of noise or running around; she's even more scared of them if they are younger.

Recently, she started growling at me when I try to leave the house if I'm not taking her with me. This morning she growled when I tried to leave the bedroom, causing a big dog fight between her and Rayden. I managed to shove her into the crate, but I haven't been able to let her out. She growls if I even LOOK at her. 

Hubby was willing to try to work out the issues of her not trusting him, but this is too much. I don't know what to do or how to handle this anymore. He says he doesn't trust her around the kids and right now I don't either. He wants her gone ASAP. 

I don't know if any rescue would take her on or if they would even consider her??

I tried having a trainer evaluate her, but taking her to a strange place causes her to completely shut down. The same if a stranger comes here to the house. 
I just don't know what to do any longer


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I am so sorry to hear this. I don't have any experiance with this sort of thing, so I can't offer any words of wisdom. I do wish you the very best, though.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think I'm upsetting her more at the moment because every time I go in I burst into tears.

She's only been around 1 woman before she came to us. I've worked on introducing her to new situations and people. 1 step forward, 2 steps back and all that. 

I just don't know what to do anymore. She deserves to be happy and not scared/stressed. I thought she was making huge strides and now I feel like I've created a monster.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What did the trainer say who saw her? I know that a shut down dog can be worked with - it just looks a lot different. It isn't all sits and downs, but baby steps. 

I think you can do it. She certainly needs you to do it. 

Something is going on that's different - somehow - for some reason - to create a new behavior. 

This is a VERY smart dog, relying on you to be one step ahead of her. I remember the nail cutting thing - you were prepared and ready and it all went well. 

I honestly would start with an animal communicator. Not the normal first step, but in addition to my vet and a behaviorist, and perhaps Tuft's Behavioral PetFax program Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
I'd give it a shot.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

that there was nothing they could do until she opened up. When I say "shut down" I mean wouldn't even get out of the truck, submissive urination began when I opened the tailgate. When the trainer walked towards the truck, Freya freaked out, peed ALL OVER herself and started howling/screaming/whining like she was being beaten. I don't have anyone close nearby with her. I don't have the ability right now to spend the days/weeks it can take her to get used to a new place before she will get out of the car.

I had a friend come over, just to get an outside view of how Freya acts at home. She panicked the second my friend came in the door. Some people, Freya warms with instantly and will love on. Usually, though, her attitude to new people is terror. Even people she warms to, she doesn't like them bothering her. I've always been afraid that pushing the issue would lead to her snapping.

Because of the heat, she has been getting less exercise, at least away from home. I've been working with her in the evenings, but that is at home playing in the yard. That is when she started growling when I would leave the house. The first few days, she got more and more adamant trying to get out of the house and follow me. Now, she stalks me from room to room and growls if I try to leave. I tried crating her, but that made her refuse to go into the crate. 

I still haven't been able to let her out of the crate so far today; I've shut the bedroom door hoping that the quiet will calm her down.

She has never growled at the kids. My oldest daughter, she seems to like (most of the time). Youngest, Freya will tolerate her being in the same room. Otherwise, she wants no interaction with her. If Allie tries to do anything with her, Freya runs away. I've never done anything that would count as Allie "pushing" herself on Freya because I'm not sure how she would react. Now, of course, DH doesn't want Allie around her at all.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

DH is really pushing for Freya to be gone. He believes that, since she has escalated her behavior with me, that she could turn on the kids. Esp Allie since Freya has never really wanted anything to do with her. 

We have all been practicing NILIF with her. Of course, Allie less so because Freya generally won't be in the same room if Allie is trying to interact with her. Same goes for DH. If he has her on leash, she will sit/down what-not. But even the simple act of feeding her doesn't work. If DH feeds her, she will ignore the food until she is beside herself with hunger. We always pull the bowls after 30 mins. We tried offering Freya her bowl throughout the day and she won't touch it. She went 3 days without eating. The only reason she finally ate, I took the bowl from DH and sat it on the floor. Freya dived into it and ate like no tomorrow. We went back to DH feeding her and she will refuse to eat. Since she has finally realized that NO ONE else is going to feed her but him, she will grudgingly eat, but only when she sees me coming to pull up the food bowls. Then she will inhale all her food in a matter of seconds. Otherwise, it can sit there all day and she won't touch it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Could it be that you do too much? That she is completely overwhelmed?

If she doesn't eat from your husband don't wait three days... give her the food. 

Build up trust between the two of you. I've had something similar with my male and I wouldn't make him go with my husband if he didn't want to. Give that dog time, don't do too much and be the main trusted person for her. 

It took me a Year to recover Yukon. It doesn't happen over night.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

By the way, is she fixed?

Could it be something medical?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

it's not a matter of her going with him. He can't enter a room if she is in there. After several months, she no longer knocks over furniture trying to get out of the room before he makes it through the door. 

She got in the habit of going out with me at least a couple times a week for walking/exercise. Because it's been so hot, we haven't been able to exercise until late, so have been doing it at home. That is when she escalated her behavior when I leave the house. 
We switched to DH feeding her while I was sick and after my surgery. She began growling at him whenever he entered a room that she was in. Not to mention, at the time there was no one else to feed her. She won't eat if he places the bowl on the floor. Definitely not a good thing if I were to be gone for any amount of time. We were advised by several people that she needed to learn to eat for other people and I totally agree with that.

I don't know if me being the main/only person she trusts is part of the problem. 

To outline what I do, to see if I am overwhelming. 

2 - 3 times a week, walking/training in a known place
. 
once a week, go to a new place. The first few visits this just involves driving there and sitting in the car for a few moments then going on to a "known" place. Gradually building up to opening the tailgate and eventually to getting out of the car.

NILIF at home. When I fed her, that included sitting while I put down her food. Now that DH is feeding her, she won't even go into the area until he leaves the room. 
Sit at the door before going out. Sit or down before throwing the toy. 
All of these she does perfectly IF she wants what you have. Otherwise, she doesn't give a flying fig and will go lay down. 

I do obedience with her at least a few minutes here and there. Basically, the same as you would a baby puppy, building up to 20 minutes once a day, still mixed in with playing.

My oldest can walk her. Freya will obey commands from B, again as long as she has something Freya wants.
Allie, Freya has nothing to do with. She doesn't run from her like she does DH, mainly preferring to act like Allie doesn't exist. If Allie tries to walk her, give her a command, etc Freya will leave the room and hide under the bed.

She will, however, eat for both of the girls, if she is hungry. Otherwise, she just sniffs and walks off.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

she's spayed and, according to the vet, in perfect health. other than her fear issues, of course. 

another point on DH. If he has the leash in his hand, she will let him approach her, put it on her, and goes with him happily. Otherwise, she stays away from him. She no longer knocks over furniture, but if he walks into the room, she scrunches away from him, then gets out of the room as soon as the path is clear.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Did you try a Bach-Flower Therapy? 

I am going to one with Zenzy. It helped a lot of dogs and it isn't chemical. 

I have a friend here who is a Therapist for dogs and she suggested a Bachflower Therapy, it helps dog to get back in balance.

http://www.preciouspets.org/newsletters/articles/bach.htm


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I've never heard of Bach-flower. 

I did try a sample of Rescue Remedy that the vet gave me. Didn't make any difference in her behavior

ah, looking it up, it seems Rescue Remedy is the same?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

The Rescue Remedy is different from the actual Therapy. My friend the Therapist evaluates Zenzy and than she will mix her own mixture and we go from there. 

Here is some more information. 

Original Bach Rescue Remedy now alcohol free for Pets

I don't know if they have people that are specialized on Bachflowers for Pets in the US but I know we have them over here.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I'm reading up on it. I know that there is no one close that would specialize in something like that! lol It takes a lot to find a good trainer, let alone a behaviorist or other specialist.

DH has pretty much sit his foot down as far as "dumping money" on her. And seeing a specialist would definitely count as the closest big city would be a several hour drive, not counting services rendered. 

That's why I don't know if I am capable of giving her what she needs.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

If it's overwhelming to her, it's overwhelming no matter what we think a dog should be able to do. 

The training would start in the car then - working (with probably a shower curtain or something under a blanket) slower than you can imagine - breaking down a large behavior into it's tiny bits - think of the thing you are most afraid of that other people are not - and think of systematic desensitization. 

Sounds like there is progress if he can leash her. The anticipation scares her more than the actual event. 

A number has been done on this dog and she requires time and patience. A lot of that involves ignoring. Ignoring and getting it so that she isn't at the point of growling. 

Nina's sister was also around 7 when her family got her. She was TERRIFIED of men and the husband could not be in the same room with her. That guy (who emailed to tell the rescue that Nina was in the shelter) rotated himself around to help the dog and never pushed. It worked out. Nina herself went from being a snappy girl to being able to be handled extensively in her last year. 

When you alternate between her feeling safe, then unsafe, it's hard for her to establish a baseline. 

I think Mrs.K is making some good suggestions!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Animal communicator. 
PetFax.

Two non-traveling things...

I'd sell newspapers if I had to so that the money wasn't an issue.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

Dainerra,

I'm sorry to hear of you situation. Clearly I LOVE dogs, but would be most concerned for your children at this point. I unfortunately witnessed a Mastiff attack a 6 year old. Flight of Life helicopter was needed 

can anyone tell me what NILIF means? thanks


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yukon was somewhat the same but he never growled or snapped at somebody, he was simply terrified of men because his trainer who was supposed to get him titled abused him badly. 

However, I know the frustration and the feeling of being helpless because you want the dog to be happy, confident and to have fun. 

It took us almost half a year to trust my husband. He was shying away from him, ducked in his present, couldn't be in the same room and he wouldn't listen to anyone else but me. 

We've tried everything, from my husband giving him the food and taking him out to potty to letting him be in the bed with him. 

Amazingly the "staying in bed with hubby" worked for us. He was at least able to be in his presence and even cuddled with him. The next day he avoided him as usual. 

It took a lot of babysteps, we had to break things down. I.E he followed me everywhere, I could go into malls and restaurants and as long as people did not pay attention to him he was fine. As soon as somebody looked at him or into his eyes it was over. 

It's frustrating and sometimes, because of some idiots out there, you have to start all over again. He ducked from raising hands, he even ducked from throwing a stick, was terrified when somebody, he didn't know approached him, wouldn't play with other dogs and ran away from them because he had no selfesteem whatsoever. 

Sometimes you try one way, find out that it wont work and try another way. It takes a lot of time and patience. Like I said, It took us a year and yesterday he played tug-o-war with me for the first time we got him.

Time, time, time and a looot of patience and sometimes less is more. Once you can see the slightest improvement you got to stop. Once you get frustrated, stop. Always give her the feeling of success, that she accomplished something. Tiny steps and give her time.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Part of it is that DH no longer trusts her AT ALL to be around the kids. His reasoning is, if she will growl at me the "center of her universe" then how will she start reacting to anything involving the people she tolerates? I can totally see his point. He has patiently worked with her being terrified of him. He worked with me through her growling at him. He's been working on her still distrust of him, but how much is too much to expect of him?

from the time she was 5 months old, Freya had only seen 1 person, the woman who owned her. Before that, the woman said she believes that the man who owned her was "rough" with her, and that she lived 24/7 in a small concrete kennel.

I can't take Freya any place she has never been. She freaks out over any change. A few weeks ago (before it got so hot) we went to the in-laws to walk. Freya flipped out, wouldn't get out of the truck, complete nervous break down. What was wrong? The people next door had put a flower pot in their yard. I walked over, moved the flower pot where she couldn't see it and she got out of the truck. I took her over, she flipped out as soon as she saw it. It's not like she has never seen a flower pot before. But she had never seen THIS flower pot, so it took a lot to convince her that this PARTICULAR plastic flower pot was no more dangerous than the ones she sees every day at home.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Have you ever consulted a behaviorist? not a trainer but someone specialized in behavioral problems such as this extreme fear.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In the past week, two dogs that I know of have been sent to the bridge because of their fears. One had parvo as a young pup and almost died, all littermates did die from it. I(and the owner) believe it was a chemical imbalance in the brain that caused her to be so fearful...luckily in her case, she wasn't aggressive, but could not live life. She was just as afraid as Freya sounds, washing machine, any person coming over, the air conditioner clicking on, everyday life was just too much for Roxie. She just wanted to be in her crate 24/7.
The other dog was fine at a young age, became aggressive to the young owner and her sister, but not the parents~again this dog had demons that couldn't be controlled so they decided to put him down. 

I've read where vitamin B complex is helpful for dogs and humans with anxiety. I would supplement with some B, can't hurt...
I agree with Jax08, a behaviorist may help, an animal communicator would be awesome if Freya would open up.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Doerak was my first dog. He was a kennel dog before I got him and I'm guessing he was 4 or 5 at the time. Everything in the world scared him. His old life was in the kennel or on the training field in the country. All he knew were his trainers and the other dogs in the other kennels. 

Now he's in the suburbs and there are children screaming, motorcycles, fireworks, the sound of aluminum foil in the kitchen even scared him. When I took him for walks he stuck to me like glue. 

It took a long time for him to get used to what we call everyday life. I had him 4 years before he died of cancer. He never got used to fireworks, and small children still sent him running the other way, but life in our house was pretty normal. I know Doerak wasn't as bad as Freya sounds, but it took about a year to get Doerak almost comfortable and afterwards he improved more and more. When there was a thunderstorm coming I got the closet ready for him and that's where he stayed. I understood what he needed and it helped him. 

I think Freya needs a super quiet spot where she can retreat to. Having so many people in the house is probably not helping her. 

If you can find a good animal communicator, that's really the best starting point. You can start talking to her yourself. Get together in a quiet place where you are both very relaxed and focus on her and just talk. Don't use negatives. Dogs don't understand those. If you say, for example, "Don't pee on the carpet", to a dog that means "DO pee on the carpet". You need to communicate what you want your dog to do. Picture it in your mind and your dog will see it. 


---


Just an aside. Why! Do people say "NO Bark" to dog that's barking. To a dog that means "BARK!" Dogs don't understand it as the anti-bark. Sorry, drives me nuts!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> In the past week, two dogs that I know of have been sent to the bridge because of their fears. One had parvo as a young pup and almost died, all littermates did die from it. I(and the owner) believe it was a chemical imbalance in the brain that caused her to be so fearful...luckily in her case, she wasn't aggressive, but could not live life. She was just as afraid as Freya sounds, washing machine, any person coming over, the air conditioner clicking on, everyday life was just too much for Roxie. She just wanted to be in her crate 24/7.
> The other dog was fine at a young age, became aggressive to the young owner and her sister, but not the parents~again this dog had demons that couldn't be controlled so they decided to put him down.
> 
> I've read where vitamin B complex is helpful for dogs and humans with anxiety. I would supplement with some B, can't hurt...
> I agree with Jax08, a behaviorist may help, an animal communicator would be awesome if Freya would open up.


I wonder if they could have been helped with Bachflowers...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Doerak was my first dog. He was a kennel dog before I got him and I'm guessing he was 4 or 5 at the time. Everything in the world scared him. His old life was in the kennel or on the training field in the country. All he knew were his trainers and the other dogs in the other kennels.
> 
> Now he's in the suburbs and there are children screaming, motorcycles, fireworks, the sound of aluminum foil in the kitchen even scared him. When I took him for walks he stuck to me like glue.


Sounds like Zenzy, she lived in an outdoor kennel all her life and/or was in the owners very own doggipark with other dogs. Other than that she has not been socialized at all. When I got her, she did not have any problems with cars, traffic, screaming kids or being in the suburbs. She had a lot of selfconfidence from the beginning. 
Her problem was/is being inside the house. She didn't know cabinets, brooms and when I opened the cabinet she would duck and shy away. 

It's gotten a lot better though. I can open cabinets and work in the kitchen without her being scared but she still doesn't trust the broom...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

It just might be time for the OP to try and find a home that can help a dog like hers. The stress in the house can't help the situation at all. Are there certain rescue groups that can help her?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I can't even find a behaviorist anywhere close. I've done internet searches, talked to my vet, etc. No one has been able to give me a reference to anyone.
as far as the money, we already both work full time and then have children and activities with the dogs. It's a matter of time as well as money.

I knew in the beginning that this wasn't going to be an over-night fix. But I am beginning to wonder if it is something that I have the ability to handle. I won't put my children in danger. I don't think that she would lash out at them unless she was in a position where she was trapped. 
However, I also can't expect my children to live never having friends over. Never being able to move something from it's "normal" position. ETC ETC. I am trying to find out if this is something I have any ability to handle


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Thank you Lillie, that is part of what I was wondering. 

I'm just so torn right now. When she is good, she is so very good. It tears me up inside when she goes into these frights. She is so very smart and such a problem solver. 

Then 5 minutes later she is climbing the walls because someone moved something to a different spot. She is not as bad when she is at home. Unlike out and about where she can refuse to get out of the car because there is a bird outside. Or the last time she was at this spot it was sunny, but today it's cloudy.

DH and I talked again when he came home from work. The only consensus that we came to was that it would be therapeutic to drive to that woman's house and smack the snot out of her for doing this to such a beautiful girl.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Personally, I don't think anyone or anything should have to live with such extreme fear. Be it a dog, human or monkey. I'm not saying that she' needs to be put down, but nothing should have to live being afraid of their home and the ppl that live in it.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

That is part of what I'm feeling. Is she happy here? I do believe that sometimes she is. Would she be happier living with someone who could give her the silence/alone time she sometimes needs as well as the attention she craves at other times? How would I find someone who is willing to take on her quirks, which are numerous without even counting her fears. 

The local Humane Society is "no-kill" but has a several month waiting list. Not to mention that the strange place packed with barking dogs and strange people coming and going would send her into space. In addition, she would have the possibility of spending the rest of her life in a tiny kennel. So that isn't a possiblity for me.

All I know of rescues, makes me doubtful that they would be willing to help with placing a dog with possible fear aggressive issues. 

I could try to find her a home on my own, but don't know what liability I might face if she did later bite someone. Not to mention that I'm not sure I would be able to trust someone to be able to provide what she needs. Definitely not your average person, at least.

Sorry that all these posts are so disjointed. I am all over the map today.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Lilie said:


> It just might be time for the OP to try and find a home that can help a dog like hers. The stress in the house can't help the situation at all. Are there certain rescue groups that can help her?


Sad, but sometimes an owner just does not have the facilities to work with a problematic dog. Being put down would seem quite rash at this point, but the OP should maybe consider carefully what they can and can't handle and possibly get the help you've (Lilie) suggested. A new home with someone who is experienced in rehab for dogs like this may be the very best solution. I just hope that the OP has the patience to find such a home, rather than just putting her out there. From what she has written, the situation seems nearly impossible. There are people out there that have the skill and desire to help dogs like this. I wish you the best of luck


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I'm sure .. you're in a tight spot. You need to think about your kids and your hubs, your own safety.

Do YOU believe that she might hurt you, your husband and or your kids? 

I don't think I would ever risk the lives of my kids or their health, or possible disfigurement for a dog. My husband would never stand for it... no one in my family would. 

You would never be able to forgive yourself if anything ever happened. 

You yourself admit that you're in out of your depth w/ the dog... If you fear her, she sees that, senses that, she might be reacting more. Also, I can't see how your hubs isn't putting off some vibes of discord and dislike toward her. She's got to feel that and reinforce the fear. Just sayin'


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I feel your frustration and confusion..

I honestly don't know if I could deal with a dog with such extreme fear( I know I wouldn't want to.

I think, unfortunately some dogs just can't be 'fixed', some can be managed , but some can't be fixed, which is definately sad for the dog.

I think what concerns me the most is, even tho it sounds like she's pretty bonded to you,,,the growling AT YOU, is something that would definately worry me. 

If I were in this situation, I could not in all good conscience, place her with someone else, rescue or otherwise, unless I knew for positive, the person was experienced and dedicated. Altho it would be my last resort, if I myself didn't think I could trust this dog with myself, I think I would euthanize her(...And that's a really hard thing for me to say, because I can't see me doing it, however, if that dog bonded to ME, and was growling at ME, something is not right. 

Good luck with your very hard decision.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I'm not afraid of her, though she did scare the bejezuss out of me this morning. Of course, that escalated the situation into the stratosphere. Rayden came flying in with his "OMG you did NOT just scare my Mommy" and all *censored* broke loose. I threw a blanket over her and bear hugged her from behind and yelled for Rayden to leave it. I shoved her, blanket and all, into the crate and slammed the door.

Will she hurt the kids? I don't think so, mainly because I never let her be in a situation where she feels the need. She is never "cornered" in a room by them, she always is allowed to be near them or not - her choice. She has had free-reign of the house until now. Until I find out what is wrong, I'm not comfortable with having her out. So she will be crated again when DH or I aren't home.

She has been growling at DH off and on for a while. He has been trying to work with her. If the 2 of them are home alone, she fawns over him. As soon as anyone else is in the house, she goes back to acting terrified of him. 

Is it possible to un-do 2+ years of neglect? How do I find someone who would be qualified to handle her issues? I don't even know what she needs.
I'm not going to just dump her. If it came down to her having to be out of the house immediately due to further aggression or similar problems, then I might have to put her down. I took her into my home and she is a huge part of my heart now. It's my job to find out how to help her. It kills me to think that perhaps the only peace she might know might come from being euthanized. 

For now, I am just trying to cope and research what options might help her.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

I am so very sorry you are having to go through this  Just a thought from someone who is not very qualified but did have huge fear issues with my previous girl...if the resue remedy did nothing for her, what about actual medication. I am not suggesting drugging her until she is numb but my girl did have to be on a prozac type treatment. That may buy you some time to work out where to go? For a behaviourist or something to be able to evaluate her? Wishing you all the best.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jean had good results with Elavil. 
That may be worth checking out. Too bad there isn't a magic pill...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, on the Elavil, over any other "canine" med for anxiety, at least for the two dogs I tried it with. Nina was on it at a maintainence (sp) dose forever, and Kramer was situational. I never tried it with Annalise, who is/was truly a terrified (almost feral) dog. 

With her, before I even got her, a communicator was used. With me, I just looked at her as a dog who was od-ing on the stress cocktail produced with fear - all that cortisol and other junk. There's a book (for people) I want to read about adrenal fatigue:







Amazon.com: Adrenal Fatigue: The 21st Century Stress Syndrome (9781890572150): James L. Wilson, Johnathan V. Wright:…

Anyway, I was like whoa...she just can't relax yet. With exercise (like you said) she got a lot of that cortisol stuff out - playing with other dogs made her the happiest. Being with me, not so much! I continued to use the animal communicator - when she first got to me - she told him, no offense, thanks for taking me in, but I'm really not sure about this place. Now she fancy pageant walks around - is she a normal dog? No, but she's happy. I've had her almost 6 years. 

IF you are not the person for her, and I think you may be selling yourself short, because you have come so far with her, then definitely research in working to find someone who would be a match. 

These cases make me think of Black Beauty, so abused and mistreated, handed off from person to person, hoping for someone - you really have to know who and where a dog is going. 

And I think out of all the ideas in this thread one of my favorite is to take a trip out to see that lady. 

I know someone who was making a list of communicators to try. They typically do it over the phone. 

To others who have never dealt with extreme fear in dogs, it is typically workable with time, ignoring, and patience. The dogs can be happy - in their way and have a great quality of life.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

What kind of growl is it?
Is it an "open" one (like posturing or showing teeth) or one going "inside".
Sometimes a scared dog will give a quiet growl going "inside" saying "I feel uncomfortable with the situation". She got really spooked this morning and it may take her a couple of days to recover. Is there a quiet room without traffic where she can relax?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Dainerra said:


> It kills me to think that perhaps the only peace she might know might come from being euthanized.


What a terrible decision to have to make. I agree with Jakoda, I don't know if I could handle this either, and for sure I wouldn't want to. 

At some point I don't think you'll have much choice but to cut your losses. There just may be no "fix" to her extreme issues, no matter how much you invest both financially and emotionally. If it comes down to that, please be kind to yourself and try not to feel guilty. You've already done more than most people either would or could. Good luck. :hugs:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You know, I think people think that...but unless they are randomly fear aggressive, most of these dogs can be maintained and over time develop into really quirky, fun dogs. 

Like with the example of the trainer seen - the trainer should say okay, I see the training session is going to be about...not experiencing fear on an outing. Not pushing to go new places, but to the same ones over and over to build confidence. Stuff like that. If you try things, but they aren't really good ones (and not your fault, just a trainer who has probably only worked with pet dogs) then you can't base a decision on that. 

I know I am yammering about the animal communicator, but truly, with a good one, their ideas come from a place of unconditional regard and THAT is the relationship that rebuilds a broken dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I believe in you Jean! I think sometimes we take vocals and attitudes way too serious. 
Onyx growls all the time, If I were to take each one to task, she'd be a basket case(more than she already is) Though, I don't live with a severely fearful dog, Onyx was moderate, and at maturity has gotten much, much better. She has a sense of humor about her, and I laugh with/at her daily. 

Still anxious and shows fear at certain things, but I don't take each episode so seriously as I did when she was younger(that may have to do with her easier going attitude?)
Dainerra, I feel for you, and those going thru this. I hope you will find the answers to your individual situations. :fingerscrossed:


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

I agree Jean! 
My friend was fostering a dog worse than this...she had been abused with a choke collar...and kept crated in a cellar her whole life. She is a submissive pee'er, terrified of being grabbed around the neck, and was afraid of the daylight, many fears. Fostered her for at least a year...and accepted her fears and didn't push her. She didn't want to go outside in the daylight...she wasn't pushed to do so. She got her exercise at night. She wanted to hide all day...ok. She pee'd...they cleaned it up...learned what triggered it...and worked around it. She pee'd when she was greeted...she was greeted on the porch...etc. Lots of patience and time. Baby steps. Progress was something as simple as her going outside in the mornng. Quality of life? They learned what she was comfortable with...what she enjoyed. For her...it was chasing a laser light on the floor...or being tossed a frisbee in the evening. It may take years..if ever...she is "normal". But doesn't mean she doesn't have a quality of life. Little things make her happy...a comfortable routine....not being pushed beyond her tolerance....a tender touch. She has actually been adopted this past week...by an elderly couple that were touched by her story..and her fears...


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

her growls with me are different from the growls at DH. with him, she seems scared. hunched down toward the floor, ears back, growling deep in her throat. she looks ready to spring, very flight or fight. 

with me, she is more confrontational. she places herself between me and the door. Her stance is more "in your face," daring you to try to get past her. teeth bared, head lowered, snarling.

If it was just me, I would have no issues about just maintaining and living around her quirks. If it was just DH and I, he would probably just bear it and deal with her issues for me.
My main concern is that we have 2 daughters. I don't know if it's fair to them or to Freya. I'm pretty sure that she will never be comfortable around kids that she doesn't know. She is loves my oldest, but tolerates my youngest. Kids younger than that are completely out of the question. I don't feel right, either, telling my kids "Sorry, you can never have friends over to visit because it upsets the dog."

I'm just overwhelmed, sometimes I think as much as she is. She's afraid of so many things, how do I know what she is reacting to? Is she scared of the guy on the other side of the parking lot? Have there been other dogs around so that the place smells different? Is it this? that? something I can't even notice?

If it comes down that the best option is another home, how would I even look for one?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Have you ever taken her to have her vision checked? A neurologist? Are there any medical reasons for extreme fear such as this?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I dont' know how much is nature and how much nurture with her. 
I think that her genetics have to be fairly solid to make the progress that she has. Her first few days, everything terrified her. Just flipping on a light switch was too much for her. But you could see her brain working, figuring things out. Giving her a few minutes to watch something gave her the courage to approach it and realize that it was harmless.

Now, her primary response is to run away. We went for a walk this evening and she was panicked by a traffic cone that had been left near someone's driveway. Even when Rayden tried to bring me the cone (apparently thought it would be a good toy) she wanted nothing to do with it. Frantic and freaking out at the end of the leash. With a bit of urging and basic bull-headed-ness I got her past the driveway. On our second walk around, she started flipping out and fighting the leash before we approached the driveway. I barely managed to get her past, even walking on the opposite side of the road. 

Again, she has never seen a specialist. Just her regular vet check-ups.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Have you ever taken her to have her vision checked? A neurologist? Are there any medical reasons for extreme fear such as this?


After reading the last post... that could actually be an explanation.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

her vision? but would that come and go? 

or are you thinking brain tumor or similar? 

after I was up and around after my surgery, her growling at DH stopped completely for almost 2 months. Than began again. 
Today she is 110% her happy self and wanting to love on everyone.

went walking this morning. flipped out again over the traffic cone, but I was able to get her to look at it this morning. Poof. Still gave it some uncertain glances, but walked by it with no extreme nervousness. Then went berserk acting like she wanted to eat the black lab that lives in that subdivision. She has seen him a million times, never had any kind of interaction with him. She's been seeing his owner jogging since we got her. As soon as they passed by, she peed and scratched. (Marking, I know) She did it ALL the time when we first got her, but it tapered out by itself as she settled in.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

These dogs have setbacks, but the recovery times usually become shorter and shorter.
Can you put her in a quiet bedroom when children are visiting?
Is there something she particularly likes as reward?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

not really. she is fine most times with not giving a flying fig about people. if she wants to do what you want, she will work for anything. If she doesn't want to do what you are doing, then nothing in the world will get her attention.

the quiet room thing doesn't work because just having someone in the house is enough to send her into a panic. She always has the option of just chilling in our bedroom, but if someone is visiting she will go in there and destroy everything because she is nervous. If she is in her crate, she chews on the crate. She ate a large hole in the plastic tray liner.


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## dianefbarfield (Apr 12, 2010)

I am far from an expert, lots of people on this forum have great advice. But first of all, you have to exercise every day. Hard exercise. If you can't get outside, put an ad in the paper and borrow or buy a treadmill. Lots of people have them sitting around and will sell them cheap.

Once she is worn out, then work with her on accepting your husband. Also, our trainer told us that when we go out and in the doors, we should just do it without fanfare and without talking to our dog. Just say stay and go out, come back in, several times a day. She used to freak but now is doing great. We can even leave her in the house uncrated while we are out working in the yard and she is calm. 

When your husband walks into a room, he could throw her a treat that she really, really loves each time and then ignore her and go on with his actions. Don't make a big deal out of her running away or force her to stay. If he sits and reads or is calm she might get closer and take treats from near him.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

oh, she is getting exercise, just in the yard. before it got so hot, I took the dogs hiking/walking away from home - drive down to the park, drive to the trail head and go for a long walk, etc. Now that it is late before it cools off, I have been doing their exercise in the back yard, playing fetch etc.

we tried the treat thing, she won't eat food that he has touched. she is just reaching the point where she will reluctantly eat food if he handled her bowl. there is no treat in the world we have found that she will take if he has touched it - hot dogs, raw hamburger, cheese, whatever. 

Never any fanfare when either of us come or go from the house. The last few weeks, when I start getting dressed Freya will sit at the door of whatever room I am in. When I move in the direction of the front door, she will get between me and the door and growl at me. 

She doesn't panic when I leave, she physically tries to stop me from going to the door. Once I am gone, then she is fine. 

We've done the "ignore" thing with DH. He pats her and is friendly when she approaches him. She used to knock over furniture (literally) to escape from the room when he walked in. Now, she just slinks to the side and runs out as soon as she has a clear path. If he tosses a treat, she will sniff it and growl at it. Then it just lays there.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

I saw a case like this on the Dog Whisperer. Cesar Millan worked wonders with this dog. I wonder if you could go on his site and email him or try and get in touch. He may respond, you never know.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Just a thought but have you considered only letting your husband handle the food? I understand she may not eat for awhile, but I would imagine hunger would eventually win out and then she WOULD have to acclimate. This may not be popular but I guess in my mind sometimes fear is so powerful that sometimes you need something more powerful to overcome it. I know when my puppies would show fear over something I would drag them over to it, make the investigate it and pair it with play or treats.

Maybe you need to get out of the picture and force her to deal with your husband?If the only way she gets food is if he puts the food bowl down...then she ahs to get used to it. And then once she's eating from the bowl then you up it and maybe he sits on the floor with her bowl and tosses her food. If she chooses not to eat it then he gets up and she doesn't eat. Sooner or later she is going to take the food and in the process learn that she CAN and it's not scary. Right now she can stay fearful because the need to overcome that fear is not high enough.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

In all these posts, I see progress. 

You have a yard, she doesn't care for walks (increases the stress cocktail in her system-again), play in the yard. 

She doesn't want to take food from him again, with the stress hormones, so you don't do that. Positive associations can be made by ignoring her as he's done - and she's responded apparently!

She is telling you what she likes and what she doesn't feel comfortable with. Unless they are life threatening things - like taking a life sustaining medication, I work with the things they DO like and DO feel comfortable with. 

Like if your favorite subject is English and you stink at Math. Math stresses you out, and if that's all you are being taught day in and day out, you will feel like a failure. But if you like English, and are able to concentrate on that only, you will build competencies and feel successful. You may never like or do well with math, but you will have some carryover in terms of habits and feelings of success. 

I think it is hard for people to see the brain part of the physical body as similar to the rest of our bodies. 

If you had a dog with HD and said well, we let her lay on concrete all day, then run her hard on asphalt, then make her do agility, people would go apecrap crazy. 

As far as the growling before you leave, I am not sure what to say, to be honest, and can't picture the behavior in near enough detail (not because you haven't described it well - it is just different to me) to offer insight. 

I would love to hear what she has to say about that!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

@ jklatsky:



Dainerra said:


> DH is really pushing for Freya to be gone. He believes that, since she has escalated her behavior with me, that she could turn on the kids. Esp Allie since Freya has never really wanted anything to do with her.
> 
> We have all been practicing NILIF with her. Of course, Allie less so because Freya generally won't be in the same room if Allie is trying to interact with her. Same goes for DH. If he has her on leash, she will sit/down what-not. But even the simple act of feeding her doesn't work. If DH feeds her, she will ignore the food until she is beside herself with hunger. We always pull the bowls after 30 mins. We tried offering Freya her bowl throughout the day and she won't touch it. She went 3 days without eating. The only reason she finally ate, I took the bowl from DH and sat it on the floor. Freya dived into it and ate like no tomorrow. We went back to DH feeding her and she will refuse to eat. Since she has finally realized that NO ONE else is going to feed her but him, she will grudgingly eat, but only when she sees me coming to pull up the food bowls. Then she will inhale all her food in a matter of seconds. Otherwise, it can sit there all day and she won't touch it.


Also, is the husband and the food "the" issue? Or is the weird growling?


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Have you read this book? I heard it has some great advise..
Scaredy Dog! Fearful & Reactive Dogs, Author Ali Brown


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes! There is also a shyk9 group on Yahoo. Also highly recommended!
shy-k9s : shy-k9s


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

no, the issue that is making it hard for us to deal with is the growling. We've been working on all of her "quirk" issues. But, her amping up the growling has made both of us question whether we have the ability to deal with her.

She started growling at my husband when I was sick. Increasing his interactions with her stopped the growling. 

He has been feeding her since then. The first time, she didn't eat for 3 days - not until I panicked and fed her instead. After a chat with the vet, went back to having only him feed her. She will eat only as a last possible resort. I briefly tried having him hand feed her, but that sent her completely into orbit. She will not touch any food that his hands have been on. I had him try offering hot dog, raw burger, cheese, any of the "normal" high value treats when I knew that she was hungry, no go.

She loves to leave the house. It took her a few trips to get used to riding in the car, but now she loves it. She doesn't like NEW places, but places she is comfortable with? Her growling at me began when I STOPPED taking her out. 

To further illustrate how far she's come and her dealings with change. When she first came here, I had to change her from her old pattern of having food pretty much constantly available to 2X a day feedings. The down side was, I feed the dogs on a pretty consistent schedule. If dinner was 2 minutes late, she would start to pace. The longer the delay, the more intense her response. She would begin licking Rayden's face, licking the feet/legs of whoever was closest to her. Panting, anxious, upset. Running back and forth from the kitchen to the closet where the food is stored. Run to person, throw herself on the floor, licking feet.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said "She is telling you what she likes and what she doesn't feel comfortable with." You said "Her growling at me began when I STOPPED taking her out". It appears that your dog is trying to tell you with her growling that she is so frustrated that you have stopped taking her out. Try taking her out, feeding her, reconnecting with her. She has come a long way thanks to your patient loving care, but poor dogs like her who have been through so much, unfortunately, it doesn't take much as you can well tell us, for her to backslide. You've gained her trust but the change in her routine and you're not taking her out (chewing up 3 pairs of your shoes - shoes with your scent - she didn't destroy anyone else's - that also is a plea for help). She loves you and is devoted to you. When you don't take her out and cut back on your interactions with her, that is devastating for her and makes her extremely anxious. So she growls, follows you, becomes scared of anymore changes (furniture being moved, flower pots, and so on). She may not be able show affection or love to all your family. But given your constant love shown by taking her out and so on, will in time give her the confidence to accept the other members of the family. You are her world, everyone else is wall paper. That's why she does best when the other ignore her.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Good observation. Dogs try hard to communicate, if only more of use tried to learn how to make it 2 way. I can't hear all my dogs, but I can see when they are trying to tell me something. 

Just a little story. I have a Malinois who can be a handful of nerves. I manage to get a Rally Novice title on her, but she just doesn't want to be out in crowds or around other dogs. Things blowing in the wind and loud noises really scare her. 

After her final RN leg at a big cluster show in Kentucky, I was browsing the booths with her on leash. It was very windy and she was totally freaking out with all the merchandise and flags, not to mention the canvas booths, rattling in the wind. I happened across the booth on an animal communicator and thought I would try her, though I've heard nothing about this particular woman. 

Ciana would not settle down, but I got her into the booth with the woman who sat on a little rug on the grass. The AC got into her calm state and started talking to my girl. I don't remember what the session was about, I really had no particular reason to consult an AC at that point. But by the time the session was over, my little girl had a happy calm look on her face and was no longer stressing over all the wind and commotion at the show. She gave the AC lady a little kiss and I paid her and left. 

Sorry I got off track, but if you can find the things that makes Freya happy and calm, I think it will be a good start. I was just thinking, my female gets nervous and protective when there's something new in the house. Sometimes I put a package on the stairs to take up later and she really gets worried about stuff like that. I think Freya is just much more hyper sensitive.


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## brucebourdon (Jun 2, 2010)

So sorry to hear about your situation, many of us could easily be there as well...

I have comparatively little experience with GSDs (only had my first for about 7 months now), but I have the following thoughts:

Definitely agree with the exercise points, if you can walk her legs off (hikes, fetch / frisbee, other hard play activities) she'll have a lot less energy to express negatively... 

Hubby taking her to training classes, maybe assisted by your oldest child if appropriate, might help some.

If you (or others around her) are stressed, she may be picking up on it. Can she wear a muzzle? If there is no chance that she can bite, then maybe allowing her to freely interact with the family will eventually become calming for her.

I have very little experience with medicating dogs, and am skeptical of the snake-oil salesmen who'll waste your time and money. But if the muzzle idea won't work, maybe your vet can prescribe something that will subdue her enough so that you can build up experiences with her being part of the family - after lots of positive time and experiences perhaps she'll learn to trust and learn her place in the pack?

Best wishes for you, whatever you decide.


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## rebelsgirl (May 19, 2005)

Zoe, my GSD is a reactive dog. She was a bit like yours with the growling. Mostly at my oldest son. We took her to have her evaluated and then 2 private lessons, She went on to do Beginners obedience and is now going on to intermediate. (She just passed her class Saturday!!)

Before I found the trainer I use, she would hide under tables, growl and bark and lunge at my oldest son. We don't know why she reacted this way to only him. All I knew is I wanted it to stop. So the trainer had him feed her in her crate. First he'd bring the food to my husband or me, and we'd sit the food in her crate. The most important thing was that she SEE him give it to us. If she didn't eat within 30 min, we took it up, then feed her supper later, she'd be very hungry by then. It only happened once that she didn't eat. The dog won't starve, they will eat when they're hungry enough. It really worked and she was able to be around my oldest but we were always vigilant.

Also, what food are you feeding her? some foods have an impact on a dogs temperament. It happened with my old Rebel GSD, he bit me more than several times. And once sent me to the hospital. People thought I was crazy for keeping him around. But I knew better to do what I was doing at the time he bit me. I knew his signs and triggers

Since we've changed Zoe's food, she has calmed down tremendously. We also give her 4 drops of rescue remedy 3 times a day. I have seen improvement. 

She is walked 2 miles a day 4 days a week, and does her ob training 3 times a day for 20 minutes.

I can understand your fear of her being around your children. I put Rebel in the bedroom when he was still alive when kids would come around or even some older family members, not because he tried to ever hurt them, there was just the potential there. And not just with biting but with pushing people down, he weighed over 100 pounds.

I think if you could find a trainer who would work with you. They'd meet you at a place where her is comfortable. They'd be able to evaluate her then. My trainer has done this for a few people from what I've heard.

If you can't or unable to do this for her please find a Shepherd Rescue who will take her in. It sounds like she is stressed and they can help dogs like that. She hasn't bitten anyone yet, and if so there is hope for her.

Hope things will get better for her. 
Kim


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Rebel - what could you do to your dog that would cause him to bite you? Short of really mistreating and hurting my dog (2 1/2 yo male GSD) I cannot concieve of anything that I would do to him that would justify biting me.

Course that is with a dog that we raised from a little 7 week old puppy - could easily be different for a rescued adult dog.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

well, it's been 3 months and she still won't willingly eat for my husband. The first time he fed her, she wouldn't eat for 3 days. Then, it was only because I panicked and fed her. It's been months and she still doesn't want to eat. I leave the food down for 30 mins and then pull it. When he feeds her, she will ignore the food until we go to pull it up. Then she will rush in and grab mouthfuls as quickly as possible.
It's not the food because she will happily eat it when any of the rest of us feed her. 
If husband has even TOUCHED the bowl, she won't touch it.

It's hard to evaluate her in a place where she is comfortable. If there is someone there she doesn't know, then she panics and flips out/shuts down. If they were to remain unnoticed by her, then all they would see is a 100% normal dog.

She's still growling at DH, though not as much. She hasn't growled at me, but we've not been pushing her much the last few days. Fireworks have her so jumpy it's taking all my time to keep the carpet cleaned. Every boom has her peeing all over the floor.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

After the weekend festivities wind down, maybe videotape her for a more inside insight to her feelings? I'm sorry this is going on for her and you this weekend, fireworks are so harmless, if only the dogs knew it!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

she's not as bad as the first couple days. What is strange is that storms don't bother her, though they freak Rayden out. The fireworks don't bother him, other than the "big night" when they are just overwhelming. Even the bottle rockets next door are flipping her out and it's been going on since Wed.

At first, I thought "I'll just crate her" I guess because she couldn't get away, she went into a total meltdown and had explosive diarrhea all over the place. Better to clean up the little pee puddles, usually only a couple of drops. They gave her some doggie valium and that's helped a LOT with the fireworks.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I know I seem (maybe am) thick on this - but why does she have to be fed by your husband? 

I realize in an emergency, blah, blah, but in general is there a point to that? Such a simple act, but so forceful to a dog who has not had good exchange experiences (ex Annalise associated getting food with being abused - difficult to build trust after that - food had a totally different association for her than for other dogs). 

I still see progress - and you hearing what she's saying - like someone said above!

PS - what's it take to get ME some valium?!?!?!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

perhaps if you start soiling yourself at loud noises?? though there are days I wish I could have some as well

several trainers did advise that having him feed her would help with the growling. He doesn't feed her every day, just once or twice a week now. If her feeding is late, then she gets anxious and starts pacing, panting and chewing on whatever she can get her teeth on.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

:rofl: I almost just did as I was reading that - someone's fireworks went off and...valium, please!

Ahhhh...you know what I would do (of course) I would get some Arby's and just have him toss it at her as he walks by (or however it would work best there). A big meaty grease hug. Anna's first food she took from me - almost 5 months after she got here - and she was behind me in the car, so none of that crazy eye contact! 

Seriously - you wonder what her association with food is. I could not believe my eyes when I realized that Anna was afraid of food from a person.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Crazy White sounds so much like freya. She has been with us nearly 7 years and she still does not eat for my husband..or frankly anyone else. She won't even go outside for anyone but me. haven't got time right now, but I can tell you a bit about her...where she was and where she is now...it is a long long road but a journey that has been well worth taking...


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

lol at the fireworks.

sadly, we've tried steak, burger, ham, raw/cooked/etc If he touched it, she won't even go near it. It took a day to figure out what her favorite treat was - those cheapie Canine CarryOuts. Had him just dropping treats on the ground, not towards her or anything else so as to not scare her because of him "throwing" things toward her. I thought all the logical reasons as to why she wouldn't eat them. If he touched it, she won't take it. She has improved some - reluctantly eating if he feeds her. When she first got here, she wouldn't eat if he had touched the BOWL. As in I say "hey, fill these up please" and he just sit it on the counter and I actually fed the dogs a bit later. She would only eat after I dumped out the food and washed the bowl.

One a very strange side note, she is afraid of peanut butter. Kid you not. If I put out treats that smell like it, or god forbid a kong with actual PB in it, she pees all over the place and hides from me. Poor Rayden gets his PB kong outside now since it freaks her out so bad. I've never seen a dog before that didn't LOVE peanut butter,let alone one who was afraid of it.


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## mazza (Jun 11, 2010)

*trust*

I sympathise with your situation dearly but from reading what you have said and yes I know I am pointing out the obvious here but she clearly has an issue/problem you have to find out what this is before you can fix it, I feel that she is being overwhelmed by so many things so she maybe in the mind set of "what next" and anxious about this. I read that she had only been with one female owner but the only dogs that I have had with issue's towards men where those who had been mistreated by them. It is very unusual for a gsd to love some and be petrified of others without there being a reason. I appreciate that your husband is concerned and wants her gone a.s.a.p. but I really do hope that you all (and her) can work through this (yes that's easy for me to say) Have you contacted the original owner to find out about her having any issue's like this previously?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I haven't talked to the woman sense I got her. I tried to call and ask her about a health question, but she wouldn't return my calls. 

From what the woman said of her history:

birth to 5 months - lived in a kennel at breeders (puppy mill?) owner was a man

5 months to 2 years - lived in outdoor kennel at woman's house. only caregiver/interaction was with her. Though did say that she brought the dog into the house a couple times while BF was gone.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dainerra said:


> lol at the fireworks.
> 
> ....She would only eat after I dumped out the food and washed the bowl.
> 
> One a very strange side note, she is afraid of peanut butter. Kid you not. If I put out treats that smell like it, or god forbid a kong with actual PB in it, she pees all over the place and hides from me.


Good Lord...what the **** did they do to her??~!!


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## Melgrj7 (Jul 5, 2009)

Have you tried putting her on a daily anti anxiety medication? Prozac helped Allie a ton, and it only cost us like $4 for a month or two supply (can't remember). If you go that route though be careful with some medications as they can also lower inhibition (I don't think prozac usually has that affect though).


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

I have little time again, but really Crazy White is such an issues dog- i can sympathize with you. CW became a part of our family in an odd way. We were transporting her and were to hold her over a holiday while her intended foster was away. While she was with us we let the rescue know she was not necessarily cat friendly. This tidbit caused her to lose her foster and we were asked if she could stay a bit more while they tried to find the right place for her. Though I updated them weekly on her progress I never heard much back. Eventually I told them there were some people interested in adopting her and asked the process. At that point through frantic emails they let me know they thought I *had* adopted her! I thought about it and realized with all her craziness it probably was in her best interest to just stay. She has been with us nearly 7 years.

When she came to my house she weighed 3x pounds- and the shelter paperwork mentioned she had gained 5 pounds at the shelter. She had scabs and scars under her fur that our vet thought were cigarette burns. She was deathly afraid of my husband. I tracked down info from the shelter and the info they did have was pretty awful. For example the family that had her said they would use food to lure her out and then beat her for not doing what they had been asking of her (like coming in the firs place). If these were the things they were willing to tell I can only imagine the **** her life was. I will never know.

She was/is afraid of EVERYTHING. We first addressed her physical needs (spaying, weight gain, healing wounds, etc). We took her to a training session straight away. I was probably 7 or 8 months pg with a toddler at home....so my husband stayed home with the baby and my father went to training with me. It was very obvious she had a man issue- and we wanted to make sure a man went to training to help. After she completed her basic obedience we took her to agility and herding. Agility was a special kind of torture for her...and though she was so obedient and consequently goos it was clear this was a nightmare for her. Herding was better as it was very early morning and only the handler and I. I tried to take/send my husband to herding after she developed comfort there but that too was a disaster. (and when I say after a time that time may have been years- she is SLOW and often regresses). 

My husband will tell me that he wonders when she will kill him. It is not because she is aggressive to him in any general way- he is just sure that she wishes him dead. He says sometimes he can feel her staring through the back of his head. She will not eat for him, go outside for him do anything with or for him. Heck she won't even eat th food I serve unless she knows WHERE he is and that that location is rooms away and he is not moving. If he is laying flat on his back she might let him pet her...or even sniff him. She occasionally approaches him from behind to sniff him- but he needs to not move, look, or talk to her or she is a mess...and just *that* took years.

If I am laying own or sick and someone- anyone- enters the room where I am she will lunge from her corner and bark.... there are some people (like my mother in law) who need only walk through a room to cause her to lunge and bark from her corner (the furthest corner from all traffic and activity. 

All of this is actually an improvement from where she was 7 years ago...and I have high hopes it will continue to improve. I posted some months ago that for the first time EVER she played. I did not think I would EVER see that. It was amazing.

Anyway, there are lots of Crazy things about Crazy White. We have tried lots of things over the years (DAP plugins, oral anxiety meds, training, desensitizing plans, etc). (Here I would like to mention one thing that someone mentioned to you earlier: We were lucky enough to already have a relationship with Dr Dodman at Tufts and took her there when on vacation for an eval. He continued to work with us and our local vets through fax and phone...you might look into this fax method as it can be helpful and is not terribly expensive...he helped me redefine my thoughts and expectations while giving us tools for modification) I am sure on some level each helped a bit. What helped me the most was coming to a better understanding of what made her ok. For example, she likes to stay in that one corner. for a long time I felt life was just passing her by and felt sad for her. I tried everything to get her to join in the family. Eventually I realized it was just stressing her more- she wanted to please me, to do as I asked, but it was so contrary to what made her feel ok and happy even When I stopped asking for so much I started to get small things from her. Two days ago she was laying on the sofa with her head in my lap- all of her own doing. I stopped expecting her to really have a relationship with my husband. It is too much for her- her demons are too strong. When I adjusted my expectations- started to see what made her happy rather than what i thought would make her happy things improved small bit by small bit. I found that I really had to scale way way back what I hoped to see as results and celebrate those small victories. 


I have been reading along for some time. I have celebrated YOUR small victories. I think you are being too hard on yourself- because from where I am sitting you have made HUGE strides and have brought her so far.... sometimes it is hard to see it when you are living it, but you have changed the world for her...and you likely will until the day she dies. You have given her a life- maybe different from the one you thought you could give her, but a good one nonetheless.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

actually, she is no more afraid of most men then she is of most women. She is terrified of ANYONE she doesn't know. But, the person she is most afraid of, in the entire world, seems to be my husband. And, before anyone says anything, he has never and would NEVER do anything to her. She has been like that since the first instant she saw him. On the other hand, sometimes she meets someone and takes an instant liking to them and one of those has been a man. 

As I said, the issue with my husband he long ago agreed to work on. It became a problem when she started growling at me. Then he kind of lost trust in her. Sure, she had never tried to bite him, but figured if she would start growling at me he would be the first she'd go for. 

I never posted what has actually seemed to help that issue. I started taking her for short car rides every few days. Not walking or anything, just jump in the car and drive to the post office to pick up the mail. She hasn't growled since. 

I have noticed over the months as she has come out of her shell, that she can be quite pushy and opinionated. I do think it was an issue where she got used to doing something and was quite vocal about not liking the change. She doesn't go every time and only if my only stop is going to the PO or some other short trip like that.


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## rebelsgirl (May 19, 2005)

Codmaster. 
The first time Rebel bit me was when he was a puppy, I was scooping his food up off the floor where I dropped it and he got my thumb, came up behind me.

The second time was an accident. He chased me to the front door, (I was trying to get to it before he did) he was barking and got me on the butt cheek, not bad tho, just bruised. 

The third time, he bit me in my sleep, my hand was hanging off the bed. He would snap if you surprised him sleeping.

The 4th time, I was sweeping up crumbs from the toaster off the floor, he bit me.

5th time, I asked for his rawhide, had my palm turned up and he bit my palm.

All these bites were quick, bite then let go. And they were all over the course of 10 years. I loved him and I wasn't going to have him put down for biting me. He was not abused, or neglected. He was a house dog. But he should have had training, been fixed and been socialized. We know these things now, but didn't know them then. We had him since he was 6 weeks old. He grew up with a Pomeranian his whole life and was not a mean dog.

The sixth time he bit me, I was putting him in the bedroom, he was not feeling good, staggering around and acting strange. He turned, got ahold of my arm and bit, shook and bit again.
The vet said he was having seizures. He had spinal problems really bad. He could barely make it off and back on the porch with his hind legs. He was a good old dog. 

But you asked me about him so I thought I should tell you.


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## rebelsgirl (May 19, 2005)

Dainerra, it takes time and patience. That's what I've learned with Zoe. Sounds like you're making progress with her. It is small baby steps to get to where you want her to be. Takes time to build trust. She will get there. I have no doubt.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

rebelsgirl said:


> Codmaster.
> The first time Rebel bit me was when he was a puppy, I was scooping his food up off the floor where I dropped it and he got my thumb, came up behind me.
> 
> The second time was an accident. He chased me to the front door, (I was trying to get to it before he did) he was barking and got me on the butt cheek, not bad tho, just bruised.
> ...


Wow! You are a LOT more patient with him than I would have been - unless he was in real pain, I don't think I could put up with a dog who bit me or a family member no matter what the reason (within reason of course!). We have never had one who has bit any of us and try very hard to raise them from puppies so that they are very aware of this law. I.E. reach down and take the food bowl for a few seconds and then return it, teach them "Out" for ANY toy, bone or toy they might have and also to accept brushing and other grooming anyway on them with out any growl or such.


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## rebelsgirl (May 19, 2005)

I loved him. I still miss him, bites and all. lol. He was a good dog despite that. 

I am sorry to hijack Dainerras thread.. all I meant by my post about Rebel is, you can train her, we didn't know how. After Rebel, we learned how. And are still learning. 

Zoe has never bit anyone (and I can touch her food and toys, thank goodnesss) but there is always potential there for a dog like her to bite. So training yours, needs to be top priority. I just feel really strong about it when I see the difference between my old GSD and my new one.


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## dreamsmaycome (Jul 6, 2010)

Hi Dainerra,
So sorry about your situation. I really can see your struggle. I do strongly agree with the other posters in trying an antidepressant medication. This situation calls for alot more than trying to manage this with behavioural techniques (which sounds like you are doing all the right things). Your dog seems like she is experiencing some type of neurosis perhaps like a human equivalent to post traumatic stress disorder. She sounds unpredictable. Prolonged periods of stress especially early on during development certainly can cause chemical changes in the brain, this is where medication may help stabilize this poor dog to allow her to be capable of behavioural changes with your consistency at home that you currently are doing. Maybe take some time to re-evaluate the gravity of this situation. It is okay to say, No, I just cannot give what it is that this dog needs.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

How come no one has suggested this?

Clearly there is a saftey issue.. so why not protect the family members, while still keeping the pup to try and help her? Or at least try and help her until a good situation comes about??


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

because if we muzzled her, she would be beyond panicked? she is extremely fearful and muzzling her (in my opinion) would be the same as cornering her in a room and leaving her no escape. Not to mention that that is probably what it would take to get one on her.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> because if we muzzled her, she would be beyond panicked? she is extremely fearful and muzzling her (in my opinion) would be the same as cornering her in a room and leaving her no escape. Not to mention that that is probably what it would take to get one on her.


This can be true....we muzzled Phenix (as recommanded by our forst trainer) and it had accentuated is anxiety...he couldn't cmmunicate with other dogs, plus he knew that in a dangerous situation he couldn't do nothing to protect himself. all this made him more anxious and didn't help us at all. In our case, the muzzle wasn't a good choice....but I don't think the muzzle is bad...it's true that it can't prevent a really bad situation...


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I guess I may not be agreeing with most people here, but if she is growling and bearing her teeth at anyone in the family, especially her caretaker- you, I think it's best for you to find her a different home, or have her put down. 

I don't want to be a downer, but her quality of life does not sound good if she is deathly afraid of non-living objects, things that CAN'T hurt her...and peanut butter?? That is very sad to hear  . I think something is definately very "off" in her head that's probably beyond fixable (by that I mean with training, sounds like some health problem to me, but then again im no expert).. I can understand that she may be afraid of someone or something that can hurt her or has a similarity to something that has hurt her in the past, but when she is afraid of flower pots, cones, and peanut butter, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I understand that she didn't have much contact with other people prior to being with you, but if she is now growling and bearing her teeth at you, things now seem to be going backwards. 

When your children are involved, I think that they need to always come first, and having a dog that is showing signs of aggression in the house is a time bomb waiting to explode. _Not to mention, if your DH does not trust her and is worried, I think it's BEST that you hear where he is coming from and take proper action in his favor- you don't want to ruin your marriage over a dog, and he obviously has valid concerns that you both need to do something about, and for his concern I feel he is a great father and husband._ <--I love dogs, and have always loved them, but for me, there ARE limits. This is just my opinion and I just want to voice that. I wouldn't keep her or any dog for a second if they showed agression in my house. Your children are forced to live with you, don't force them to live with a dog that could potentially seriously injure them. I saw you mentioned that you or your husband needed to be home for her to be free in the house...your gut doesn't trust her if you need to do that. It's one thing if you are living alone and want to risk that for yourself, but when children are involved, I think their safety is #1 priority and I am very firm on this. I am sorry you have to deal with this, I imagine it is VERY hard and confusing to make a desicion when you want to do the "right" thing, whatever that may be...I can't imagine the stress. But just remember that your human family should be priority #1, I understand that pets are a part of the family, but you know what I mean...  Best of wishes to you, and I'll be thinking of you...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Dainerra said:


> actually, she is no more afraid of most men then she is of most women. She is terrified of ANYONE she doesn't know. But, the person she is most afraid of, in the entire world, seems to be my husband. And, before anyone says anything, he has never and would NEVER do anything to her. She has been like that since the first instant she saw him. On the other hand, sometimes she meets someone and takes an instant liking to them and one of those has been a man.
> 
> As I said, the issue with my husband he long ago agreed to work on. It became a problem when she started growling at me. Then he kind of lost trust in her. Sure, she had never tried to bite him, but figured if she would start growling at me he would be the first she'd go for.
> 
> ...


You are, and have made huge progress with her. 

I think sometimes with these fearful dogs, as you peel away the layers, you find their underlying temperament, and it may be confusing - to you and the dog. 

The fear that maskd Anna's overall temperament, reveals, as it leaves (or in new situations comes and goes) a good overall temperament. So not a lot of confusion for her - she likes to follow. 

Other fearful dogs I have had around have become goofy, aloof, pushy, depending on the dog, as those layers come off. I think the dogs who have the hardest time are ones who have some "oomph" to their temperament. It's like, well, I'm not really scared, but have no idea how to get what I want, because I've only had two extreme behaviors, total fear, and showing some bravado. So they have to learn how to go middle ground and that's hard to learn. Even for us - passive or aggressive are easy, assertive is hard. 

Anyway, congrats on all you've done with her!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

from reading everything so far i think this dog has learned growling at people gets her what she wants, for them to leave her alone.........somewherte along the line she discovered this works, which isn't unusual for a fearful dog.........

having a fearful dog is a huge learning experience but one thing i have learned is to take things Very very slowly not pushing them......

just curious, how does your husband react when she growls at him? how do you react? do you back off? put her away? etc..........because somehow she is getting the results she wants do this.......

seriously i would take a video tape of her, a few of them in different situations, get a Good trainer, that has a clue on dealing with this, and that might take some hunting......
you definitely need some professional help, if you want to keep her, rehoming her is not going to be an easy thing as you know.....most people would never want to deal with a dog like this...........maybe an experienced person might take her, but thats in the minority as well..........in my experience dogs like this regress big time being bounced around from home to home, and understandably so.............

Once you have a professionals opinion you can make a decision based on the evaluation..............


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Laura (PupperLove), I am of the same opinion....as hard as it is.


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## noelle (Jun 26, 2009)

All I can say say is try & find her a home who can commit to addressing these issues...if she can have a chance at a good life & an approriate home that can offer her the love & training she deserves you owe it to her!!


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

there are quite a few things out there these days that are worse for a dog like this than a humane euth. if you cannot continue to work with her and at the same time protect your family, and keep peace with your husband, please consider this and make absolutely sure that she does not get bounced around willy-nilly and fall into the wrong hands. a hard and heartbreaking decision i know. of course the ideal would be for you to continue on with the progress you've made, but in he event that's not possible, please consider the truly awful things that could happen to her...unless of course you find that needle in a haystack experienced person who has the ability, resources, patience, and lifestyle to accommodate her needs...and make that difficult and painful choice. wishing you good luck and peace of mind, it does sound as tho (as you titled your thread), you are in over your head.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

The problem with even thinking of re-homing her is HOW?? I've contacted a couple of places, they won't consider taking her. The Humane Society will and they are "no kill" but she doesn't do well in confined spaces. It scares her and if they can't/won't find a home for her, she would live the rest of her life in a kennel. I've asked trying to find a GSD rescue, but either don't get an email back or can't even find contact info.

She still growls at DH, but it's hard to tell what triggers her as she will go days without it. No, he doesn't back off. I tell her "no" and he gives her a command which she always immediately obeys. Then she follows him around the house for a few mins before going back to the bedroom. Since I went back to taking her for car rides, she hasn't growled once to me. So, in my case, I do think it was a matter of her trying to force me to do what she wanted.

She's never shown any aggression towards the kids. She does tend to keep away from the youngest, but adores the oldest. If youngest is laying on the floor, Freya will go lay near her and take a nap. Otherwise, she ignores her. If she gets nervous, she simply goes to another room. Yesterday, DD was stretched out on the floor watching TV and Freya came out and laid next to her and went to sleep. That is the part that is so frustrating - it's like 2 personalities. One that is "normal" and one that could get her own show on A&E for obsessions and personality quirks. Possibly "Hoarders" as well as Freya will steal anything that isn't nailed down, but only when she is stressed. Stressed, she turns into a kleptomaniac and will just randomly pick things up and hide them in the bedroom


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i don't think most of the general public is equipped to deal with a dog with such issues...working with a dog with these issues is far beyond general training for a normal dog........
i also think its just as hard to find a professional trainer/behaviorist who has the right approach in dealing with these issues.....

my youngest male has some insecure issues, i never had to deal with this, always had confident dogs, so, gerneral training was not working for him, it was frustrating trying to find the right approach to work with him...........i could have sent him back to the breeder but i chose to keep him, knowing full well what i was in for..........

i honestly would never do it again keeping a dog like this, but i have also learned alot working with him.............i had this dog in classes and did total socialization from day one, everything possible to ensure him becoming a confident dog........one thing i learned with dogs like this, you really have to expose them slowly to things, very controlled situations.........in my case, it took trial and error and my own imagination finding things that worked in his counter conditioning knowing what he was capable of..........it kinda of comes down to the owner constantly being aware of every situation and trying different things..........but mostly it comes down to time and patience...........and excepting the dog for what it is, ts almost like having a special needs child........it does cause stress within the household and does tend to overtake and upset your lifestyle........non of us ever seek out this type of dog, but they are out there.......

i understand what your going through. definitely alot to consider in your situation.....
especially with children.............i think if you were able to somehow get professional advice and an eval you might have the tools to get to a better place........on the other hand if you don't have the time and determination i really hope you can find the right person/home for this dog....

best of luck....


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

it seems to me, and this is just my personal opinion, there are really only two choices here. 

#1. accept this dog for what she is, have an enormous amount of patience, gently guide her to what you do want, ignore the (non-dangerous) behavior you don't want, expect nothing of her, but protect her and give her a safe place to live and work around the possible inconvenience to you and your family.

#2. as much as you want to avoid this, make and accept the very difficult decision to send her to the bridge. if any of her beahvior becomes truly dangerous to you or your family this is your only option. no one can say finding a suitable place to re-home her is impossible, but i would say it comes very close to being impossible, and the chances are very slim that you would be successful. there are not even enough places for the dogs without issues to go right now, i would be so reluctant to send her anywhere and not know what would happen to her. you would always wonder and i would think it would be so hard to have any peace of mind.

i appreciate the difficulty of the situation you're in. take care.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think you owe it to the dog and yourself to get an evaluation however it works best, be it a video of her in situations and let a professional view it, or other........

as i said above your not equipped with the training knowledge or a professional behaviorist, so you do need a professional opinion, i think the dog deserves a proper evaluation first and foremost, then make a decision based on the knowledge of soemone that knows behaviors and can pinpoint the deeper causes of this behavior....then you will have a base to work with.............alot of times medications are recommended in counter conditioning these dogs, i have no problem with it, if it helps rehab them and helps them to relax..........while you are training them, etc........

honestly talk with a trainer/behaviorist tell them your concerns, its amazing what a good trainer can come up with to help............and i said a good professional, which is something you will have to research in your area..............

i can't imagine any rescue or other place would take this dog like she is, and any move from your home will be devistating for her........so, get some help or think about what would be best for her...........otherwise.........

Can you video her in a few family situations and post it here? its hard to help unless we can see her in action..........


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I will try to get some videos of her and post them here. It's just a matter of waiting until she has another "freak out" she went months before this one


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

The trainer we had for obedience had rescue shepherd- this lady has trained service, therapy dogs, taught classes, you name it, for 24 yrs. Her shepherd Tess, had similar issues as yours but had her for 4 yrs. Last month Tess attacked the trainer's Golden, completely unprovoked, and literally tried to rip his face off. She hated to, but was forced to have Tess put to sleep, but was thankful that a person wasn't the victim of the attack. I imagine you've considered this option given your liability legally, ethically and in a way for the dog's peace. Very tough situation, I worry about you!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

even if you could just get a video of her in her normal day around the house, around you guys, can you pretend your leaving and have your hubby video how she acts twards you? sometimes you might miss some things she does or just think its normal, someone objective might be able to pinpoint things.........
just trying to help..............
i will say that a huge part of rehab is also building confidence through Obedience training, Ob is the key to saving alot of these dogs.........


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

she isn't reacting to me any more. She just watches me walk to the door and goes back to napping.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

well i would say that is progress for sure, i think with the right tools you might be able to work on other things.............if you are really set on making this work, i would also look into buying some dvd's and books on counter conditioning, Ob training, and anything that pertains.....if she is toy motivated its amazing what you can do with that.................you can work on toy drive and there are alot of dvd's on that........you just need to spend Alot of time with her, slowly progressing,.......


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## tonkatuff81 (Jul 13, 2010)

Dainerra...I don't believe that your dog is getting enough exercise and socialization. GSD's are very protective within the home. If there is a dog park nearby, try to go there regularly (ie every day !). The dog will socialize and exercise with other dogs and learn to accept strangers (humans) on common ground. This will pay off at home eventually. At home though, you cannot accept any aggression to family members by Freya. An immediate and firm correction is required. However, herding behavior, within the home, will take a bit longer. GSD's alert when anyone comes home, and they can be worse when a family member leaves. They are deeply concerned about "THEIR PEOPLE". Freya's behavior toward your husband is not typical. Please make sure that she has not been beaten or "humiliated". GSD's are eager to please and are very affectionate. However, they can become dangerous when abused.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

tonkatuff, you are making the assumption that freya is the kind of shepherd you are speaking of, which is a shepherd who has a sound temperment without the underlying issues that this dog has, and i'm thinking that your advice, which is accurate under ordinary circumtances, is not applicable to this situation. some of the things you recommend make me think perhaps you didn't read the whole thread thoroughly, i know it's a long one.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

from what i have read in this post this is not a stable gsd, whether it be from being abused before or from bad genetics, or both which would be the worst case senario.

So, throwing this dog into a free for all at a dog park, or over whelming her with people socialization before she has the skills to handle such interactions would be disasterous at this point............slow counter conditioning within her threshold is the only way ....

i do agree at home she might need more OB and leadership to build her confidence, and exercise and mental stimulation is always important for these dogs.......for this situation basically its like starting at square one as if you had a puppy, backing up and building a foundation slowly........


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with the two above ^^ posters.

It sounds like she has some major problems. I doubt most of the problems with her absolutely freaking out over common things, can be cured, but maybe can be managed with long term work. 

My feeling is, a dog who is 'sound' in the first place, will normally bounce back from even the most horrific of experiences/situations, an unsound dog and/or weak nerves, bad genetics whatever, will not bounce back but in most cases can be managed.

Honestly, I give you credit for hanging in there, I seriously doubt I would.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i give anyone ALOT of credit for hanging in there with a dog like this, having experienced it for myself i know a bit about what it takes to deal with this.........honestly, alot of people would take the easy way out, and i can understand that because its a huge commitment and its something that always need to be watched and worked with.....

and i do agree with Diane, a truely sound dog would bounce back from most anything with the right guidence......


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

gotta add my voice to those who are giving the OP a ton of credit for hanging in there and trying to do what's best for this dog.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Are you opposed to using behavioral drugs for this dog? This is a case where I think behavioral drugs could really help. You may be able to find a general practice vet who will prescribe them to you in this case.

You say it is hard to reward her because she doesn't like to take food or play. There is an easy major reward for a dog like this though - retreating from the scary thing, which relieves stress/pressure on her. 

The lack of exposure and interaction during the most important developmental phases would indicate that this dog's brain does not function the way a "normal" pet dog's brain functions. Her brain literally did not develop the same way. She basically behaves as a feral  dog would towards humans and new situations. Perhaps you can try to get in touch with people who have had success with rehabbing feral dogs?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i do agree with meds for this dog, i think its the only way she can be counter conditioned without being totally stressed.........

as i said we can't see her in action so its hard to give advice.......i did have a friend one time with a very timid gsd, she would run and hide behind the couch when people came, i suggessted she leash the dog put her in a sit and let the company come in, but tell them ahead of time do not make eye contact with her, talk to her, or come near her, just come in and sit down and visit, and ignore her.........meanwhile the owner would give her treats........this worked amazing wonders with this dog, and eventually people were handing her food..........and she was taking it.......she got the hiding behavior from a young age because no one took the time to properly socialize her, and she started the hiding behavior, no one ever showed her any different.......sad......


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