# Red flags? Breeding didn't take



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I have a friend who put a deposit down on a puppy from a breeder. She was 3rd in line for a puppy out of a litter that was due 2/29. She called the breeder yesterday to inquire about the puppies and the breeder said that the pregnancy didn't take, but she has another female that is due next week and she will be 5th on the list for that litter if she wants. She also said she has a couple friends who are breeders and she can see if they have any puppies on the ground or future litters, otherwise she will refund her deposit (I believe it was $500).

This all made me nervous. Are these red flags? I've never purchased a puppy from an actual breeder before so I can't help her much with that. I know she's paying over $1000 for the puppy, but not sure exactly how much. 

The breeder said she didn't plan on both females having the puppies so close, it's just how it ended up. I'm not sure what that means. Heat cycles?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It sounds legitimate to me. She is not demanding the friend take a puppy from the other female and is willing to reimburse her deposit. She is willing to help your friend locate another puppy. Sometimes breedings do NOT take. Timing, one of the two may be infterile, any number of things. You can't control when the females go in heat and that is the only time they can be bred.

I am surprised she did not know until that close to the due date though. I know they can show signs of false pregnancy and you would not know but think most folks do x-rays or ultrasounds though I have no direct knowledge of that kind of stuff.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Ok, that makes me feel better. Is it normal for breeders not to contact deposit holders (for lack of a better term?) if the pregnancy didn't take? She should have known weeks ago that she wasn't pregnant, right?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would have hoped the breeder would be in contact before the whelp date to let the client know the breeding didn't take. That _is_ a red flag to me on the breeders responsiblity. 

I would get my refunded deposit and go elsewhere. 

What if...the breeder said she was breeding to a top stud to gain deposits, then never bred to him, but let those with deposits go with other litters or her friends litters? Just doesn't sit right w/ me, I'd need some contact with progress during the dams pregnancy(x-ray or ultrasound confirmation) and hope to be involved when she whelps thru e-mail updates. 

And really, I wouldn't choose a breeder for the breeder but choose the dogs that are being bred, so going with another litter or a friends litter would not even be a thought.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

There was a planned breeding I was interested in & on a waiting list for the litter (no deposit was given in this case) but the breeding didn't take...the breeder contacted me. Having no experience with breeding I would think this just happens sometimes to all breeders.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

The pregnancy not taking isn't the issue to me, it's the lack of contact before my friend inquired herself (assuming the puppies had been born).


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Kittilicious said:


> The pregnancy not taking isn't the issue to me, it's the lack of contact before my friend inquired herself (assuming the puppies had been born).


Oh-I see (no coffee yet this morning!). This breeder in my case was in constant contact via e-mail with updates. YES this would be a red flag to me!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

It's not unusual for a breeding to not "take". Balto's mom only had the one litter and never got pregnant again. 



Courtney said:


> Oh-I see (no coffee yet this morning!). This breeder in my case was in constant contact via e-mail with updates. YES this would be a red flag to me!


Oh, I hate it when breeders don't communicate! And contractors, also. I won't hire a contractor that has a negative reviews on responsiveness.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Before everyone _"hangs the breeder from the nearest tree"...._ the breeder may have simply waited to see how many puppies were actually born from the 2nd litter, before contacting prospects that had deposits on the 1st litter....??
*and it is quite common to have more than one female pregnant at the same time....no red flag there.*
Perhaps the breeder just found out that the female was actually "not pregnant"...considering some females can have a false pregnancy and *look* like they have conceived......?
IDK???
I think that since the breeder offered to refund deposits, move deposits or even help locate other available puppies/litters......they really have done nothing "red flag" in this instance. 
Possibly the worse thing was the lack of communication regarding the non viable 1st litter and the possible home prospects.
Again...I don't know the breeder, circumstances or prospects......so I'm just voicing an opinion on the side of giving people the "benefit of doubt"......


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm not 'hanging' the breeder, but if I was to support a breeder, I would want it both ways. Communication is not that hard to do via e-mail on progress. If I was expecting a pup and no contact was made after the expected whelp date, that doesn't show support. 
IT is a red flag. Even if the breeder was waiting to see about the next litter numbers, communication should be ongoing. Just wouldn't sit well with me to have to be the one to make contact after not being let in that the breeding didn't take.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

For the first 4 weeks after breeding--no one knows whether or not the girl is pregnant: the blood test is available after about 3 weeks but is unreliable; ultrasound is reliable from about day 25 to day 35. But you don't want to xray until about Day 55. So if you're pretty sure she got pregnant (sometimes this is false pregnancy, sometimes it's a real pregnancy that is later resorbed) and you decide to wait for x-rays, you're almost at the due date before you know for sure.

As far as notifying... I agree, it is ideal to contact people with a deposit. But I don't think it's shady not to immediately notify. Sometimes the breeder is waiting for further information or put the info up in a public location and figure that the info was received---and you have to remember that the breeder is as disappointed or more so than you are--and sometimes it's hard to face additional disappointment from the potential puppy buyers. 

Although it shows a lack of people and/or business skills--remember, most people don't become dog breeders because they are great business(wo)men or because of their people skills--in fact, if anything, breeders are chastised for acting like it's a business and many people get seriously into dogs because they have trouble dealing with humans.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

My breeder never contacted me when Rorie was born -its close to her 7th Birthday-she's an awesome dog-I agree with Robin give the person the benefit of the doubt and if you are wondering why they didn't contact the puppy buyer ask them


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally, if I paid a deposit beforehand (which I wouldn't do, but...) I would expect to be notified that the first breeding did not take and informed about the second breeding. If I was not interested in the next breeding, I'd want to know, b/c then I'd go looking elsewhere rather than have a breeder reserving a puppy for me that I don't want.

I have no issue with breeding not taking.

This is a good example of why I don't pay a deposit at all or don't pay one until the puppies are born and a few weeks old.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The blood test with us has been 100% correct. We do not do ultrasounds, but we do x-rays.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the litter was due 2/29. The friend contacted yesterday, 3/2. That is only 2 days. That isn't too late for the breeder to still be taking temperatures (assuming the bitch had a false pregnancy).  
She could have been busy with other things and hadn't called everyone on the list yet. I'd say that 2 days isn't that long, though we can always hope for prompt communications.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't take deposits until pups are on the ground. I do not contact people until pups are a week old. Too much can happen. And not everyone likes to x-ray to confirm pregnancy. I do not see it as red flags at all.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Dainerra said:


> the litter was due 2/29. The friend contacted yesterday, 3/2. That is only 2 days. That isn't too late for the breeder to still be taking temperatures (assuming the bitch had a false pregnancy).
> She could have been busy with other things and hadn't called everyone on the list yet. I'd say that 2 days isn't that long, though we can always hope for prompt communications.


I agree, I didn't really pay attention to the dates. I think if people paid deposits they should be contacted after the due date.

I agreed to buy a puppy a few years ago (didn't make a deposit) and not only did the breeding not take but the bitch went through a false pregnancy so for a little while we didn't know. I did know before the due date though.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

So it's all pretty normal then? I've never gone through the breeder process, as I said, but I'm glad that this is not a huge deal. I was a bit concerned for the friend when she told me but as long as it isn't anything to worry about, then I won't


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It is pretty normal....everyone does things a little differently....personally I don't take deposits, but am often in contact with buyers up to the birth of pups...heck, am sometimes on the phone with them during the whelping if we have a really good relationship already! Talked to Pam a good bit I think through the K's (she has an H litter girl, and has become a very good friend through the last several years)...

As far as not knowing - sometimes it is hard, and many people look at a questionable female and just hope it is a small litter rather than a non litter....and are not sure unless they x-ray - which is again, only a few days before whelping date...one time I had an appt to get the x-rays, only to walk in on a female with 2 pups nursing! Experienced good mom - but I REALLY like to have a head count!

And yes, females all seem to come in heat closely, so litters are close....even though Csabre and Hexe live apart they were not far apart in heat cycles....and Hexe and her 3/4 sister Furious were really in sync, being bred and whelping exactly on the same dates!!! And they live 400+ miles apart!

Offering the deposit back is good and very ethical - if your friend wants to look around, then she is free to do so.

Lee


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

We always contact our puppy clients when the breeding took place, and we always check the female by ultra sound to confirm the pregnancy. Now if the pregnancy didn't take, then the first thing we would do is contact the people that have put a deposit down on that breeding. To us it's just common courtesy and good communication. It also depends on the breeder/client as well. Sometimes clients don't want to wait those 2 or 3 day's to find out that the pregnancy didn't take, so they can move on to another litter or even another breeder. Everyone/breeder/person is different on how they handle things like this. I do feel that it is always best to get the pregnancy confirmed rather than waiting for the female to have the puppies. 


We personally do not have more than 1 litter on the ground at the same time, but again everyone is different.

It is good of this breeder too offer back the deposit and offer other litters from other breeders for the client. For me personally, I would want to know that day that the pregnancy didn't take though, and I wouldn't want to have to call the breeder myself to find out the breeding didn't take. Just my personal preference.


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