# How to make a dog think?



## gsdraven

How do you turn a dog that is used to being told what to do into a thinking dog?


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## Heagler870

I'm not sure if I get your question completely but when I used to work with Riley on Recall when he would want to go past me you could tell he was thinking, "okay do I want to come to her or do I just keep going." He finally got it though. His recall is sooo much better than it used to be but sometimes when we play an if he walks by I can still tell he's thinking about it because he'll turn around and come back.


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## Heagler870

Oh sorry you asked a specific question. I thought you asked how can you tell.
Sorry


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## gsdraven

Heagler870 said:


> Oh sorry you asked a specific question. I thought you asked how can you tell.
> Sorry


It's ok. I'm just looking for general discussion about how to have a thinking dog. 

I know how to raise one but looking for ideas on turning a dog that was previously trained with compulsion so waits to be guided into one that thinks for themself. I didn't want to make it about a specific dog (mine) but just get general ideas.


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## Rerun

Marker training (waiting for the desired response and marking it with a reward until it's a trained behavior) would be my answer, but the key is to have a dog that enjoys training enough to keep trying to see what you are looking for vs a dog that sees you just standing there and wanders off in a few seconds.

I have some videos of me doing some easy marker training with Dante, but he has been trained to be a thinker since he was a wee pup so I'm not sure it would really apply.


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## Mrs.K

yeah, i can second that. Marker training is the best way to get a dog thinking. It'll take a while but they start thinking for themselves and sometimes even outsmart you. 

However, there are still dogs out there that just don't get it. Some are smarter than others, some are more primal than others.


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## gsdraven

> Marker training


I figured that would be the standard answer.  Hopefully there will be more discussion - different exercises etc.


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## Mrs.K

How well does your dog know marker training. Is he ready to go into the more advanced stuff and why do you want him to think more? 

With a little more background info we might give better answers.


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## gsdraven

I wanted to just discuss, wasn't really looking for direct advice on my dog. 

What prompted the question is Raven (my female). She was trained mostly with compulsion before I started educating myself. We recently got into nose work. She did really well at first but when we take away the boxes, she gives up and starts just running around the room or looking at me or others for direction. She just stops searching. She hasn't really had any marker training. Part of it is I am moving too fast for her and part of it is she isn't used to thinking on her own.


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## LaRen616

Do you play hide and seek? Can you have a friend hold onto your dog while you go and hide and then have the dog search for you? You wouldn't be able to direct him/her, he/she would have to come find you by themself.

That might help, Tug-A-Jug's make them think, they have to figure out how to get the treats out themselves.

Puzzles can help too, you can also play the cup trick where you put the treat under the cup and move them around in front of the dog and then they have to choose which one has the treat under it.


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## Lilie

My first thought when reading your question was what have I done to see if a dog is a thinking dog or a dog who waits for direction from you with out putting forth any effort on it's own. 

Because I have no real life, I play a lot of games with my dogs. I like to keep us entertained. One of the things I'll do is take a very valued treat and hide it under a bowl, or pot. The dog knows it's there but has to figure out how to get it once I release the dog. 

My GSD will go directly to the pot and work to flip it to get to the treat. He'll lay by the pot and use his mouth and feet to free the treat. My Golden will use his nose and push the pot till it either flips or reaches a stationary object where he can flip the pot. My mini doxie will dance around, whine and cry, jump on me, go back to the pot and repeat. She won't attempt to move the pot or find the treat. She wants me to do it for her. 

IMO - The GSD enjoys the game. He likes to take his time. Sometimes I'll put the treat under a bowl, a pot over the bowl, and then a box over the pot (I told you I have no life.) The GSD likes to think. 

The Golden follows a tried and true way to get the treat. He does it the same way every time. He wants the treat, figured out how to get it and doesn't waste his time. Although he does think, he doesn't entertain himself with it. He is no nonsense. 

The Doxie, doesn't think. She gets over excited and no matter how long I give her she won't attempt to figure it out on her own. If I ignore her, she'll lay next to the bowl and whine. If I try to excite her she'll jump and dance but never attempt to get the treat.


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## LaRen616

Sinister and I love to play Hide and Seek and 2 different versions of Find It.

One version of Find It is where I put the treat in one shoe and scatter other shoes around the room.

The other version of Find It is when I drag a treat on the floor creating a scent trail and then I hide the treat behind the couch or behind the garbage can, but I do not put the treat under anything.


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## Jax08

I wish you were closer!!


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## Mrs.K

gsdraven said:


> I wanted to just discuss, wasn't really looking for direct advice on my dog.
> 
> What prompted the question is Raven (my female). She was trained mostly with compulsion before I started educating myself. We recently got into nose work. She did really well at first but when we take away the boxes, she gives up and starts just running around the room or looking at me or others for direction. She just stops searching. She hasn't really had any marker training. Part of it is I am moving too fast for her and part of it is she isn't used to thinking on her own.



Than I'd start with marker training and take it really slow with her. Babysteps help tremendously. They slower and better the foundation, they more success you have in the long run. 

And one good thing about marker training is that the dog can't do anything wrong and that is the trick. If they don't get it right, they don't get the treat, which makes them start thinking "What do I have to do, to get the treat."


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## hunterisgreat

marker training will make a dog think and you can watch him do it... don't even really need marker, but its very helpful... for example, last night I taught "stand" to my male. We'd do like this:
"Sitz... good!, OK!" dog sat. marked with OK and he got ball
"Platz... good!, Ok!" dog layed, marked with OK, and he got ball
"Steh... pfui... steh.... " etc... he goes through his repertoire trying to figure out what he's gotta do to get that ball. the head cocking back and forth is him trying to hear me better to help figure out. Eventually he figures it out. 

And thats how you "make" a dog think.


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## Mrs.K

I wouldn't use "steh" for him to stand on his legs. 
If you are doing SchH and you are using German commands for the Obedience part, the "Steh" is one of them. But in the end, it doesn't really matter


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## gsdraven

hunterisgreat said:


> "Steh... pfui... steh.... " etc... he goes through his repertoire trying to figure out what he's gotta do to get that ball. the head cocking back and forth is him trying to hear me better to help figure out. Eventually he figures it out.
> 
> And thats how you "make" a dog think.


But he's already thinking! 

Using my Raven as an example, she won't throw out behaviors. Her default behavior if she doesn't know what I want is to give my eye contact but she won't try anything else beyond that. Kaiser on the other hand (who wasn't trained via prong) will do everything and anything he knows to figure out what will get him the treat.


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## NancyJ

Grim does not throw behaviors either and I believe there was some compulsion in his early training (Dutch owner) even though he is very biddable.

Yes on the eye contact though.

But he is still remarkably good as an independant searcher and has slowly learned to blow me off when he is on scent (with a lot of encouragement on my part)

Example though.....I wanted the dogs to sit before I opened the door. So I just went to the door and put my hand on the handle. Cyra threw out every behavior in the book and when she sat, I opened the door-she "got it" and offered it that much faster the next time.

Grim just spun and barked until I finally prompted a sit. 

Though Grim knows now I want him to sit and does it automatically more reliably than Cyra. Go figure. She is very independant though.


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## clearcreekranch

Hey, thanks for this thread. We were directed to use compulsion type training with Wolf from day 1. I began to see that he had no excitement level in obedience. He would generally do what I wanted, but seemingly reluctantly at times. I was told that this was disrespect and to crank up the compulsion. I did not follow that advice.
I have been watching Michael Ellis on the engagement with food and backing off of the structured patterns, etc. Wolf is way more attentive to me and I have only been doing it for about 2 weeks. When I ask him to do something, he is much more "joyful".


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## Mrs.K

Compulsion has it's place but in very very very little doses and I rather not use it. I will try every positive re-inforcement method out there. As the Leerburg people say, it's simple but not easy to use the marker training. Sometimes it can take a little longer but the end result is so much better than what you'd get with Compulsion.


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## Jax08

Were you ever able to work on her relating the reward to you like we discussed on the phone? That really helped Jax start throwing out behaviors and working to get her frisbee. She will still wait for direction at times but once you get her in drive she'll start to work on her own.


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## gsdraven

I'm having trouble remembering that part of the conversation 

If you can, how do you know they relate the reward to you? I think she does.


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## Jax08

She'll start 'looking' to you. And if you wait just a few minutes she'll start working through commands to get what she wants. Jax works through Sit, Platz, Heel and back again as soon as I pick up a frisbee. I'll be home most of the weekend if you want to call.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I would start just like I do with a brand new puppy - capturing behaviors with clicker and treats. No commands, no pressure to do anything in particular, just start marking and rewarding stuff the dog does on his/her own that you like and want to encourage.


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## WarrantsWifey

Seek-A-Treat Shuffle Bone Dog Puzzle Toy - Dog.com

Seek-A-Treat Flip N Flap Dog Puzzle Toy - Dog.com


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## GuardianAngel

I'm new to this and just want to make sure I understand. Compulsion training is where I tell my girl to do something, she does it, then I give her the treat; i.e. I say sit, she sits then gets the treat. Marker training is where there's a word or noise I make when she does something I want her to do, but she has to figure out what it is? Do they learn to associate an action with the word, so if say you need them to sit they'll still sit on command?



Lilie said:


> Because I have no real life, I play a lot of games with my dogs. I like to keep us entertained. One of the things I'll do is take a very valued treat and hide it under a bowl, or pot. The dog knows it's there but has to figure out how to get it once I release the dog.


I'm definitely gonna try this out


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## Cassidy's Mom

GuardianAngel said:


> I'm new to this and just want to make sure I understand. Compulsion training is where I tell my girl to do something, she does it, then I give her the treat; i.e. I say sit, she sits then gets the treat. Marker training is where there's a word or noise I make when she does something I want her to do, but she has to figure out what it is?


No.  If you were to teach your dog to heel by giving her a leash correction whenever she's NOT in heel position, that would be compulsion. There's more to it than that, obviously, but it's more about correcting the wrong behavior than reinforcing the right behavior. 

Marker training means that when the dog is doing what you want, you mark it, either verbally (usually "yes!") or with a clicker, at the exact second that they're doing whatever you wanted them to do, and then you reward, usually with food or a toy. You can lure a dog into a sit, for example, and mark the second the butt touches the floor and give a treat. The marker ALWAYS means that a reward will follow. Or you can wait for the dog to sit ("capturing") on his own, then mark and reward. Generally you would add a command later, because initially the dog does not know what the word means anyway. 

If I wanted to teach my dog "down" by capturing and using a clicker I'd wait until my dog laid down, then click and toss a treat so he had to get up to get it. Then I'd wait for him to lay down again. The more I reinforce the down, the more my dog is going to offer it up, and then I can then add the command right before he does. 

I taught Halo what position I wanted her to be in on walks by clicking and treating her whenever she was in heel position. I also clicked and treated her whenever she looked up at me. Once she's consistently staying in heel position and giving me frequent eye contact, I can put it on cue by naming it "heel".


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## GuardianAngel

There's so much to learn!!  LOL 
So with marker training can you train kinda whenever you want throughout the day, or do you still need to have training sessions?


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## carmspack

gsdraven isn't asking for alternative training methods she is asking how do you encourage the dog to figure out solutions on its own in a creative way. Do I have that right?
One example that comes to mind is one that I use on my own young pups. There is a fairground where I walk the track to exercise the dogs . There are cement "walls" used as parking lot barriers that are about 3 1/2 feet high - all in a line . If I am with a friend , the friend will hold the dog back out of sight while I run out and get to the other side of the barrier , distance about 40 feet . Once I am in position friend starts walking toward me with dog off lead at which point I will call the dog to come to me . Friend stays back. Dog has to move independantly away from friend and come to me . I encourage dog to come, then take a step or two back . The dog now has to figure out on his own how to actually come to me , get past the barrier . He is too young , too small to jump over . If he is close to the wall he looses sight of me . He can try to scale the wall -- or he can figure out that if he does something counter intuitive and goes away from me and runs 10 feet to left or right he no longer has a wall to deal with and can come to me from the side. He has to figure it out. 
Same can be done with a pond . Dog can figure out to go around , instead of travelling in a straight line and swim across. 
Had an old off road Caravan minivan which served as a training tool for years . Little things like leaving one door on far side slightly open , leaving a window open but not enough for dog to get through , toss ball inside , ask dog go get it . Logically he will work the near side where he saw you toss the ball through the window . Will concentrate on that door. May paw at it bark at it , even try the window. To be successful he has to take a run around the van to the far side and get in the door there . You can also do it and have dog go through open window space. 
In a barn where hay bales are stacked I will scramble up and have dog figure out how to get up there . There will be one area with hay stacked staggered so that they can come up. 
Is this what you were looking for?
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

just thought of this one -- same fairground has bleachers around the baseball field. 

We walk along the bleachers like a cat walk , or up and down the stoops. I may throw something over the bleachers and the dog has to get it --- but it is his choice how to accomplish this . He can go up and over , run around the bleachers , go through the stoops/benches , or can go under . No wrong way.


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## Caledon

I bought a book last year called The Thinking Dog. It was a book about crossing over from compulsion training to clicker training. I haven't read it in a while and I lent it to a friend so I cannot reference it now, but if I remember right it had a few exercises in to encourage the dog to think.

(I did not compulsion train my dog, but I was just interested in the clicker part of the book).

I like the bleacher exercise. The exercise with the pond would not work with my dog. She would do anything to get into the water and that would be a big reward for her LOL. I'm going to try these suggersions. Love finding ways to work with my dog and have fun at it.


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## PaddyD

Being very unscientific, all I do is give my dog 9/10 of what she needs to know and see if she can get the last 1/10th on her own. She has grown used to not looking to me for the solution to every puzzle.


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## hunterisgreat

gsdraven said:


> But he's already thinking!
> 
> Using my Raven as an example, she won't throw out behaviors. Her default behavior if she doesn't know what I want is to give my eye contact but she won't try anything else beyond that. Kaiser on the other hand (who wasn't trained via prong) will do everything and anything he knows to figure out what will get him the treat.


Yeah thats why I had "make" in quotes. My dogs are prong trained (and ecollar literate now) but they both still burn through everything they got trying to figure out the desired behavior... then you get the desperate whiny bark of they run out of tricks


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> I wouldn't use "steh" for him to stand on his legs.
> If you are doing SchH and you are using German commands for the Obedience part, the "Steh" is one of them. But in the end, it doesn't really matter


Howcome? I am doing SchH so I wanted to use the correct command


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## gsdraven

carmspack said:


> gsdraven isn't asking for alternative training methods she is asking how do you encourage the dog to figure out solutions on its own in a creative way. Do I have that right?


Yes!

A dog that throws out behaviors is already thinking. I was curious as to ideas to get a dog - presumably an adult that was never taught to think on their own and maybe even taught not to think through lots of obedience - to start thinking and figure out things on their own.


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## PaddyD

It's the same with kids and people I train. I give them (what I think is) enough to figure things out on their own. Then less and less ... to the degree that is possible. I try to make sure that they come up with the solution, it is not given to them.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."


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## gsdraven

I'm procrastinating some work so I thought I'd bump this thread... anyone want to add in comments about how they encourage their dogs to think?


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## Cassidy's Mom

carmspack said:


> gsdraven isn't asking for alternative training methods she is asking how do you encourage the dog to figure out solutions on its own in a creative way.


I don't think you can totally separate the two. Certain kinds of training encourage and reinforce independent thinking more than others.


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## Aiden

I think you want to make your dog philosopher.Any how it is called the sense which you want to create in your dog.There are many books available in market on different breeds of dog.You may easily learn those techniques from there.


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## TankGrrl66

I do marker training with my dogs, and my star pupil (my older male, Rudy) is pretty good about problem solving.

One of my favorite ways to get his brain working is this:

I will grab a random object. He will need to figure out what I want him to do with it. If I place a bucket in front of him, he will put a paw on it, step in it, put his nose in it and look at me, try to pick it up, walk around it, etc. I used a skaetboard and he tried flipping it over with his nose...something he thought of and I have never gone over. I thought that was pretty interesting. 

Hiding food/toys/yourself is a fun one too. 

Hey, does anyone know of specific behaviors or body language dogs exhibit when they are really thinking? Because I know horses with slowly chew and have white foam on their mouths when they are thinking about an exercise. Just wondering


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## fuzzybunny

I hide in a corn field and let the dogs find me. It's pretty fun to watch because I can usually see them searching.


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## Joshherd

When we do a woods trail hike the dogs always get too far away and to teach them a lesson I'll take off running then hide behind a tree. So funny when you can see them figure out you are no longer waiting on them and they come sniffing/ running like mad to find me.


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## danbibby

I'm training our Karma to search cars, in fact I'm employing a lot of training I learned when I handled dogs for a year in Japan during temp duty status. I have him "diving" on command, which is what handler and dog do if they come under fire.


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## valreegrl

Great thread so I am reviving  

My female (Roxy) has been clicker training since 12 weeks, but at about 7 months old she 'turned off'. No longer wanting to work or engage with me. At the same time we began experiencing the same thing with one of our dogs in rescue, same background. 

Each reluctantly gave what we asked, but begrudgingly and clearly had zero enjoyment. 

What I did was change the game, no longer asked for anything. Purely starting catching behaviors and rewarding for them. Soon what happened is she began giving random behaviors and making eye contact waiting for a reward. I rewarded her and and moved on. 
Then, I began working with a foster around her. New puppy, excited to learn so the rewards were flowing fast. Quickly Roxy began giving me everything I asked of the pup, so I rewarded her but went right back to only working the pup again. 
Next I brought the box game out, one they all love because its quick and lots of rewarding involved. 
(Box game is just shaping random behaviors, anything really. Put their foot in, step into it, head in the box, pick it up, push it with their nose, etc.)
I pulled the box out and her eyes lit up but I only played with my male that night. 
Next night I pulled the box out again and her excitement level was even higher so I began shaping with her and she had a blast! 

What I learned through all this (by default really as I was at a loss at the time!) was that although she enjoyed the initial work of learning new skills she quickly bored because there was no longer any thought involved. Also, we were working with each other often and we bored of each other. No longer was my time with her valuable. 

Now, with her, I only train about 3x per week. The other times I let her watch and if she engages I reward her. She doesn't have a great amount of drive and I just needed to find a balance that suited her I guess.

So maybe the trick is to let them really want to engage with you. Leave them waiting and wanting more. And as they try to get that attention back reward that thought process. We all know you can literally see them thinking, their ears twitching when they hear something, their nose moving when a new smell comes along, head turns, etc. Catch that behavior and reward it. Similar to catching and rewarding calming signals but maybe needing a bit more observation as thought is usually quick and not as noticeable. 

Again, great thread...happy I ran 'into' it


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## Thru the Viewfinder

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No.  If you were to teach your dog to heel by giving her a leash correction whenever she's NOT in heel position, that would be compulsion. There's more to it than that, obviously, but it's more about correcting the wrong behavior than reinforcing the right behavior.
> 
> Marker training means that when the dog is doing what you want, you mark it, either verbally (usually "yes!") or with a clicker, at the exact second that they're doing whatever you wanted them to do, and then you reward, usually with food or a toy. You can lure a dog into a sit, for example, and mark the second the butt touches the floor and give a treat. The marker ALWAYS means that a reward will follow. Or you can wait for the dog to sit ("capturing") on his own, then mark and reward. Generally you would add a command later, because initially the dog does not know what the word means anyway.
> 
> If I wanted to teach my dog "down" by capturing and using a clicker I'd wait until my dog laid down, then click and toss a treat so he had to get up to get it. Then I'd wait for him to lay down again. The more I reinforce the down, the more my dog is going to offer it up, and then I can then add the command right before he does.
> 
> I taught Halo what position I wanted her to be in on walks by clicking and treating her whenever she was in heel position. I also clicked and treated her whenever she looked up at me. Once she's consistently staying in heel position and giving me frequent eye contact, I can put it on cue by naming it "heel".


Thank you for this post. I was taught to train with the compulsion method. I haven't had any guidance or experience using the marker training... I think your post here has explained it to me on a very understandable level. 

Now that I "get" it... I'll be incorporating this into our daily life. I realize I've done it here and there, but not exclusively.


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