# "Not so - calming signal" from Kira.



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I hate to raise topics like this, but I feel the need to learn more about this.

As many of you know, Kira is not good with other dogs. She has a timid personality, and apparently other dogs pick up on this, and become aggressive.
For that reason, I've made it my business to keep her away from loose dogs.

As you can see in my many videos, we're always alone with her, and she's fine.

Yesterday, I was walking ON LEASH on a local street. People were walking in both directions, and Kira was walking beautifully. She paid no attention to anyone, just walked by my side.

As we passed another Golden retriever (also on leash), the Golden just burst out into a rage at Kira. Kira paid no attention, and we just kept walking.
The owner stopped about 20 feet behind me, and looked at me to apologize. She said that her dog NEVER does this. I just chuckled under my breath.

Besides the incidents we know about, this has happened on more than just a few occasions.

Has anyone ever experienced having a dog, that simply invites aggression from other dogs?

There has to be some sort of "canine signal" going on here.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have seen it with Border Collies as they tend to stare at other dogs and the contrast of the blue eyes accentuates it. When I had a reactive dog I mentioned to other people when their dog was staring at mine as it is likely to get their dog attacked.

It was a trigger for my dog and my responsibility to manage but people should know when their dogs shoot off signals to other dogs. I usually sit my dogs when a rude dog approaches (even when a charging dog came at us) and put myself between my dog and the approaching dog. Sitting is a calming signal.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Of course, I have no videos to document the signal, but is there a chance that Kira is giving a certain look to these dogs? Her eyes are a dark color, and unlikely to attract attention like a BC.

She has to be inviting this, somehow, some way. I don't think it's pure coincidence.

She's very alert to her surroundings, and always looking around. Always perky. Could her perkiness, be setting off other dogs?

It's crazy.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Is there anyway you could get your wife to film you while you walk with Kira? Maybe someone could give you some input from seeing it. Sometimes you, as the handler doesn't notice the subtle signals because you're busy walking. Not saying you aren't paying attention but I know it always helps me to have another set of eyes on the situation...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Good suggestion on video. What is her body carraige? Ears up tail up or both laid back? Of course it could be there are so many reactive dogs that it is ANY dog that sets them off.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Good suggestion on video. What is her body carraige? Ears up tail up or both laid back? Of course it could be there are so many reactive dogs that it is ANY dog that sets them off.


If I have to guess (off my memory), I'd say that her ears are up. Always up.
Her tail is relaxed. The sight of anything stimulating, her tail curls upward. This usually happens with smaller dogs, or anything that could be "prey". I've picked up on this.
Larger dogs, get a different response. She's been attacked by large dogs, and her body language is more reserved. I see a difference. Not as confident, cocky. But more neutral, if anything.

If you recall, she would tend to go into "flight mode" at the first sign of a larger, perceived threat.
On leash, I don't get this. She's neutral. I could walk into Petco, and she would not pay much attention to another dog.
If the other dog looks at her, the OTHER dog would be reactive.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I have seen it with Border Collies as they tend to stare at other dogs and the contrast of the blue eyes accentuates it.


I"m so glad you said this. I swear Jax reacts more to blue eyed dogs but thought I was nuts!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have actually heard that THIS may be the reason some dogs who have not been socialized to dark skinned people might react agressively (eyes and teeth / contrast)


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I have actually heard that THIS may be the reason some dogs who have not been socialized to dark skinned people might react agressively (eyes and teeth / contrast)


Interesting. I had a dog like that a long time ago. Anytime any of our darker skinned friends would come over we would have to lock him up. His hackles would go up and he would start growling.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I wonder if it has anything to do with scent. 

Maybe they smell something from her that sets them off?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Is Kira staring at the other dogs as she passes? Is she focusing on the other dog at all?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

UPDATE:

Paul, your answer may be below.

My wife has no idea that I started this thread (as well as many others ..LOL)

I'm at work, and my wife just called me.

She tells me that she took Kira for a 2 hour walk today. Along the way, she met with a neighbor around the corner. The neighbor has a 2 yr old female WGSL named "Zena". Zena is a calm, very playful GSD. Kira has played with her in the past, without issues.

My wife invites the neighbor to go for a walk with her. They're all walking together, side by side, and about 10 minutes into the walk, Zena goes after Kira. (Both leashed, so no harm).
I asked my wife if she had any idea why Zena suddenly changed her love for Kira, and she said that the Zena's owner noticed a slight snarl from Kira, as they were walking. (Kira showed her teeth). 
She said Kira instigated it.
Both women corrected, and they were OK.

*This may be what I'm not seeing.*

My wife just ironically sent me a picture of her and Zena hanging out together.
This is the closest I've had Kira next to another dog in a while.
They were chewing a stick together.

(Kira on left with the choke collar)


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

The Stealth Snarl! Why, the little vixen! LOL!:wild::wild:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Not really an answer to what I was initially asking, but some kind of communication is going on between Kira and other dogs that you may not be picking up on. 

Did you wife happen to say what was going on immediately before Kira growled and showed her teeth? How exactly were they walking together? How much distance between the two dogs? Any sticks or toys involved? Any other dogs or people in the general area? 

And after Kira snarled... how did Zena's owner react? Did she immediately pull on the leash to separate the two? That's almost a guarantee to cause a reaction like in this situation where a snarl quickly turns into lunging/barking.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

When I get home, I'll address all those questions. I'm really curious how this played out. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

OK, got the story from my wife....

She said she and her friend approached each other. Both dogs did nothing for a few seconds. Kira was next to my wife, and Zena was next to her owner.
Then, after a few seconds of just sitting there, Zena went after Kira. Kira just stood there, but moved back a bit.
She said they both did nothing but move the dogs away from each other, and continued talking. They acted as if nothing happened.
They decided to go for a walk.
The dogs were positioned on the outside of each owner.

Then, Zena's owner saw *Kira* look towards Zena, and show her teeth, without provocation. Zena responded by snapping and growling towards Kira.
(Definitely some bad communication going on here)

The women stayed in between both dogs, and just told them to "knock it off".

THEN, like a magic spell kicked in, Zena went into a play bow position, and invited Kira to play. The women were both leery, and just let them lay next to each other, and chew some branches.

All in all, my wife says that early on, Zena had it in for Kira. If they were loose, Kira would have gotten it from Zena. 
Zena is a nice dog. She's well socialized, attends Camp Bow Wow on a regular basis, and NEVER has dog issues.
I'm blaming something here on Kira.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

stay on topic. leave us dark skinned people out of it. :laugh:



jocoyn said:


> I have actually heard that THIS may be the reason some dogs who have not been socialized to dark skinned people might react agressively (eyes and teeth / contrast)


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it could be some dog communication that only dogs
can translate.



Anthony8858 said:


> OK, got the story from my wife....
> 
> She said she and her friend approached each other. Both dogs did nothing for a few seconds. Kira was next to my wife, and Zena was next to her owner.
> Then, after a few seconds of just sitting there, Zena went after Kira. Kira just stood there, but moved back a bit.
> ...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i have the go everywhere of leash dog. we walk into
homes where there's cats and there's no reaction,
people come to our house with their dogs and it's playtime,
we walk through flocks of birds when in the woods and there's
no reaction, you get the idea. one day we're in the woods
and we pass a GSD. i didn't like the way the other dog looked
at my dog so i held his collar. out of nowhere my dog let out
a serious bark and growl. then the other dog reacted. one time
my dog was laying in front of our table at this restraraunt. a Great
Dan and it's human walked past. the Dan didn't see my dog because
of where he was laying. out of nowhere my dog got up and growled
and barked seriously at the Dan. that's 2 times by dog reacted to another
dog. my dog is 5 yrs old. in both cases my dog reacted first to what
i considered nothing.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i have the go everywhere of leash dog. we walk into
> homes where there's cats and there's no reaction,
> people come to our house with their dogs and it's playtime,
> we walk through flocks of birds when in the woods and there's
> ...


Understood.

Whatever that "nothing" is, Kira is doing it.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

My best friend has a WGSL SchH1 female imported from Germany at about age 2. This dog has a great temperament and I absolutely adore her. My friend has a neighbor who has a Great Pyrenees female (I do NOT like this dog and didn't from the day I met it, sorry I'm judgmental based on experience ). Anyway, this friend walks her dog in the neighborhood daily and goes right past the home of my friend. I have been there on numerous occasions when she's gone by and we've chatted (I know this woman as well, we all have kids the same age). Anyway her GP has ALWAYS done the sneaky lip snarl thing. Everytime I've seen the dog I've seen her do it at least once but usually more. I warned my girlfriend that one day her dog is going have enough and will correct the GP. I explained that the sneaky snarl is the dog equivalent of flipping her the bird. 
Anyway, sure enough one day the GSD was outside (this time with the son who is 20yo and not a kid, but not the mom in charge either) and the GSD had it and flattened the GP and gave her a pinch bite to the snout (shut that smart mouth right up!). Anyway, my girlfriend was stunned that she did this "unprovoked" and I said are you kidding, that dog has been provoking her for as long as I've known it, I'm amazed she had this much patience!
Needless to say her son finally listened to me when I told him not let down his guard if that dog was in the vicinity. I explained that the GSD was a SchH1 and understood the command PLATZ and they better use it. No problems since, at least from their dog. The GP on the other hand has had issues with other dogs in the neighborhood.

Anthony, as to your dog inciting this behavior. Sometimes the unconfident dogs come off as sneaky to other dogs. It sounds like you have done a lot of work and training with Kira. I would try working on putting her in a down position facing you and making eye contact with you when you see other dogs approaching in this type of situation. I have a client with a dog that is timid and tends to set other dogs off for whatever reason (I'm not there so can't say for sure) so I have instructed her to work on her down under distraction gradually getting up to the level of distraction you would encounter on a walk in the neighborhood. I showed her how to make it a really fun, fast thing. When she sees another dog/handler approaching she quickly backs up and calls the dog to front and then tells her to down (rewarding with really high value treats for inspiration). She may end up doing 4-5 here/downs to distract her dog while the other dog passes but whatever it takes. After a while her dog began the scenario on it's own when another dog came on the scene. She now does it just as the other dog really gets in range and still makes it fun and then moves on with minimal interruption to the walk.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

bocron said:


> My best friend has a WGSL SchH1 female imported from Germany at about age 2. This dog has a great temperament and I absolutely adore her. My friend has a neighbor who has a Great Pyrenees female (I do NOT like this dog and didn't from the day I met it, sorry I'm judgmental based on experience ). Anyway, this friend walks her dog in the neighborhood daily and goes right past the home of my friend. I have been there on numerous occasions when she's gone by and we've chatted (I know this woman as well, we all have kids the same age). Anyway her GP has ALWAYS done the sneaky lip snarl thing. Everytime I've seen the dog I've seen her do it at least once but usually more. I warned my girlfriend that one day her dog is going have enough and will correct the GP. I explained that the sneaky snarl is the dog equivalent of flipping her the bird.
> Anyway, sure enough one day the GSD was outside (this time with the son who is 20yo and not a kid, but not the mom in charge either) and the GSD had it and flattened the GP and gave her a pinch bite to the snout (shut that smart mouth right up!). Anyway, my girlfriend was stunned that she did this "unprovoked" and I said are you kidding, that dog has been provoking her for as long as I've known it, I'm amazed she had this much patience!
> Needless to say her son finally listened to me when I told him not let down his guard if that dog was in the vicinity. I explained that the GSD was a SchH1 and understood the command PLATZ and they better use it. No problems since, at least from their dog. The GP on the other hand has had issues with other dogs in the neighborhood.
> 
> *Anthony, as to your dog inciting this behavior. Sometimes the unconfident dogs come off as sneaky to other dogs. It sounds like you have done a lot of work and training with Kira. I would try working on putting her in a down position facing you and making eye contact with you when you see other dogs approaching in this type of situation. I have a client with a dog that is timid and tends to set other dogs off for whatever reason (I'm not there so can't say for sure) so I have instructed her to work on her down under distraction gradually getting up to the level of distraction you would encounter on a walk in the neighborhood. I showed her how to make it a really fun, fast thing. When she sees another dog/handler approaching she quickly backs up and calls the dog to front and then tells her to down (rewarding with really high value treats for inspiration). She may end up doing 4-5 here/downs to distract her dog while the other dog passes but whatever it takes. After a while her dog began the scenario on it's own when another dog came on the scene. She now does it just as the other dog really gets in range and still makes it fun and then moves on with minimal interruption to the walk.*




I think you have nailed this one. It's no secret that she's timid. Unconfident around other dogs is also very accurate. She's been this way since a pup.

So basically, what I suspected was right...

Kira is insecure, and timid around older, larger dogs.
She sets them off, by flipping them the bird (little b*tch has an attitude) LOL

I'll start working on the down in front you mention. That should be easy for her.

A while back, Kira did something, and a member here mentioned that I should be aware that Kira doesn't start something she can't finish. This seems like a perfect example of what she was talking about.

In light of this behavior, I've made it my business to keep Kira away from any other dogs. As you see in my videos. we're always alone. I don't want to chance it anymore. She's gonna get seriously hurt one day.

Not sure if you saw an older thread of mine....

About six weeks ago, I took Kira to her usual play area. It's a vast, waterfront open field. She loves it there, and gets her exercise. On this particular day, there happen to be a few loose dogs on the other side of the park. I didn't think anything of it
Long story short.... Kira sees an imposing GSD, goes into flight mode, now Kira suddenly becomes prey to three dogs.
End result had her with punctures on her side. She never put up a fight. She ran under a parked vehicle, and was conered by these three dogs, taking snaps at her from under the car.

That was it for me. I had seen enough at that point. That whole scene was not normal. Completely unprovoked. At that point, I decided that she will never bee off leash in the presence of another dog again.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I like the title to your post, did you read the Calming Signals book? I see Molly giving calming signals to both people and dogs. We've experienced very similar situations with Molly. However Molly seems to have a more dominant personality vs timid, it's fun when she's with dogs that she likes because she "gets the party started" like that Pink song. So there are times I feel another dog that thinks itself dominant will try prove itself with Molly. There are four dogs in our neighborhood that when seeing Molly for the first time immediately submitted, laid down and showed their belly and they are friends forever now.

There are some dogs that will bark and lunge at her from across the street. With these dogs, I don't think it something about Molly, but uneducated owners with poorly socialized dogs.

Other times, I think Molly picks up some negative feeling from the dog's owner. Then the stranger dog senses it's owner's and Molly's negative feelings and reacts. There are times when some off-leash dogs will approach Molly, and the meet is fine until the owner sees that their dog is meeting a GSD, panics and says come, come, come. At that point there may be lunging by both dogs. The few times we've met the runaway dog that couldn't wait for the owner to take him out, Molly does really well with those dogs, and they are fine with her, eventually ignoring her.

Then other times, as others have suggested I think it may be her size, coloring, smell. Last Thanksgiving we had a negative low tide during the day at the beaches nearby. It was warm and you just imaging all the people with their guests at the beach looking for sea urchins, starfish etc. Also so many people walking their dogs off-leash (even though illegal at these beaches). We noticed some unexplained bad behavior towards Molly from many dogs, even when she bowed down into the play position. Big snarly teeth from Collies, Border collies, Goldens, other various mixes. And of course when there was an incident the passerbys thought the GSD initiated the lunging.

If we want Molly to meet a new dog, or if I think there may be some aggression by either party, we have Molly go into the "down" position.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I have seen it with Border Collies as they tend to stare at other dogs and the contrast of the blue eyes accentuates it. When I had a reactive dog I mentioned to other people when their dog was staring at mine as it is likely to get their dog attacked.
> 
> It was a trigger for my dog and my responsibility to manage but people should know when their dogs shoot off signals to other dogs. I usually sit my dogs when a rude dog approaches (even when a charging dog came at us) and put myself between my dog and the approaching dog. Sitting is a calming signal.


Interesting!

My dog (5yo male GSD) also usually reacts strongly to another dog staring at him, esp. when they demo an aggressive posture.

Your dog (and you!) must have a very strong sit/stay if he/she will keep it and allow you to get and stay in front of them when another dog is running at them!

We work on it a lot, but not so much so far with my guy. He has to be out front meeting the challenge of the other dog. Maybe it is me and I am just not quick enough to stay in front of him between him and the other dog! Heh! Heh!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Anthony, I also want to stress that you need to be Kira's advocate in social situations. Make sure as you are working on her down with focus on you that the other dog is going to go on by. When my client was first working on it we practiced with me walking by with "safe" dogs on leash. The client dog needed to have it done a few times with a nice outcome in order to build some confidence before going out into the real world. The last thing you want to do is have her trust your assessment of a dog and that dog go after her and make it ten times worse. I know you have the best intentions with her so am not concerned with your understanding, just want to make sure you know that you want to set her up to succeed from the get go. At this point what you have to teach her is to trust you more than she fears the situation, it can be done but it must be slow and steady.
Also, to build her confidence in general have you looked into teaching her tracking? There may be a good class near you, or a way to do some private lessons to learn the activity and then pursue it on your own. It is a real confidence builder in our experience.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

How many times did we hear the tale of: "But he's never done that before..."???


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We were actually talking about that "he's never done that before" at our NAPWDA seminar/certification when one of the dogs had a bowel movement in the building.........we decided we needed a t-shirt!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Anthony8858 said:


> About six weeks ago, I took Kira to her usual play area. It's a vast, waterfront open field. She loves it there, and gets her exercise. On this particular day, there happen to be a few loose dogs on the other side of the park. I didn't think anything of it
> Long story short.... Kira sees an imposing GSD, goes into flight mode, now Kira suddenly becomes prey to three dogs.
> End result had her with punctures on her side. She never put up a fight. She ran under a parked vehicle, and was conered by these three dogs, taking snaps at her from under the car.
> 
> That was it for me. I had seen enough at that point. That whole scene was not normal. Completely unprovoked. At that point, I decided that she will never bee off leash in the presence of another dog again.


Seriously!? They actually attacked Kira and drew blood? This may be partially Kira's fault for running or throwing out bad signals, but that's no excuse for the other three dogs involved in that attack. Sounds like it's even more the other dogs fault. Kira ran, but those dogs bit. It's stuff like this that's ruining Kira's confidence around other dogs.

Were those three dogs owned by the same people or together in the same group? What happened after the attack? I hope at the very least they paid her vet bills.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Seriously!? They actually attacked Kira and drew blood? This may be partially Kira's fault for running or throwing out bad signals, but that's no excuse for the other three dogs involved in that attack. Sounds like it's even more the other dogs fault. Kira ran, but those dogs bit. It's stuff like this that's ruining Kira's confidence around other dogs.
> 
> Were those three dogs owned by the same people or together in the same group? What happened after the attack? I hope at the very least they paid her vet bills.


Yes they did. 
She had stitches, and ended up with an abscess. Was a three week ordeal. My vet cooperated and only hit me for a few hundred. 
Other owners were baffled, saying that their dogs "never did that". 

I've gone back there during dog park hours, and have witnessed those dogs playing nicely with all dogs. 
I can't say this enough times..... Kira's body language invites the aggression in certain dogs. 
I've noticed that she doesn't get this from younger dogs. 

As far as her confidence goes, yes it's these incidents that have ruined her confidence. But if you ask me, I strongly believe it was a predisposed condition. It was already there. I just didn't know enough to deal with it. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Did those owners ever offer to pay for the bill? 

Seriously Anthony. It's not all Kira. At some point you have to acknowledge that there are some sucky dog owners out there as well. 

One of my girls got harassed by a puppy. The owner noticed it but didn't do anything about it. My girl gave the pup a warning sign, the pup continued to harass my girl, my girl snapped at the puppy. It was a quick bite and unfortunately she got the pup right beneath her eye. It went so fast, I didn't even see half of it and had my back turned towards one of my other dogs. 
However, I immediately said that I'm going to pay the bill, since it was my dog, even though the pup provoked it in the first place. 

How many times did you see these dogs with other dogs? 

It's not only Kira's fault. Period. Do NOT always blame your own dog. You make her sound worse than she actually is and then you are all surprised when people attack you on one of those "Oh, she's SO funny" topics.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> It's not only Kira's fault. Period. Do NOT always blame your own dog. You make her sound worse than she actually is and then you are all surprised when people attack you on one of those "Oh, she's SO funny" topics.


True this! To that end maybe I should also clarify a statement I made. I said that timid dogs sometimes set other dogs off. This is true but what I should have said that they set off other dogs who maybe run a bit timid or are borderline bullies themselves. I run a private dog park and deal with dozens of dogs on a daily basis. I will say that the timid dogs pretty much NEVER set off the balanced, confident dogs it is generally the dogs that exhibit "false" confidence but are actually pretty fearful themselves.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

bocron said:


> True this! To that end maybe I should also clarify a statement I made. I said that timid dogs sometimes set other dogs off. This is true but what I should have said that they set off other dogs who maybe run a bit timid or are borderline bullies themselves. I run a private dog park and deal with dozens of dogs on a daily basis. I will say that the timid dogs pretty much NEVER set off the balanced, confident dogs it is generally the dogs that exhibit "false" confidence but are actually pretty fearful themselves.


Ditto. If she was harassing other dogs, and they would have given her a warning and back off and she would continue to harass, it would be an entirely different story. 

However, I used to work in a dog day care center. Small space, lots of dogs and it was never the good and balanced dogs that reacted on fearful dogs. It was those that first hid for two weeks in a tube before they dared to even look at the pack. Those were the dogs, that then were thought of "Oh they became so confident, look at that" and then reacted on other fearful dogs, later down the road.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> We were actually talking about that "he's never done that before" at our NAPWDA seminar/certification when one of the dogs had a bowel movement in the building.........we decided we needed a t-shirt!


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