# Creating drive through deprivation



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

In another thread it was brought up that we can/can't create drive by depriving our dogs. Deprive them from what? Anything the dog really wants. Some people don't let there dogs have toys except the ones they use for training. Some keep there dogs kenneled/crated except for when they are training. Some will make the dog skip a meal or two to increase the desire for food and so on. So what are your thoughts?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good question. Both trainers I have worked with believe withholding food/toys improves training.

I do it on a limited basis, no breakfast on training day and such, not _too_ many different toys around. 

It makes sense, intuitively, but that doesn't mean it's always the best way....(??)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't do this but it kind of happens naturally being that my Schutzhund club is 2.5 hours away and my dogs are kept crated in my vehicle when it's not their turn. So there are always periods of them being separated from me and only having access to water before they are worked and then again afterward. At home, I do not purposely do this. We have dog toys littering the house and yard. I use food to train some things but it is not in place of meals. I just feel like there are some things my dogs have to earn but there are some things they just get and don't have to work for. Meals and water are things dogs just get. Some of my training toys are not left out but it's more because they will get destroyed quickly, not because I need to deprive the dog of them in order for it to have value. My current SchH/IPO dog is not crated at home unless we have company. He is always crated in the vehicle for safety and since we train in several venues, he's actually crated almost every day plus we travel every weekend for SchH training and/or tournaments and other events. 

I like having dogs around and that's why I own them. Now if I had a kennel I'd probably use it at times, but not for "creating" drive, more because sometimes I need to do things without dogs in the way, or dogs are stinky and I just want them out for a while. I don't know if you can create drive through deprivation or not, it's just not a strategy I've tried.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I wouldn't do this. Deprivation training's not my style at all. I think there are better and kinder ways of motivating a dog.

I went to my first Schutzhund trial today and it was pretty eye-opening. I only saw five dogs doing their level 2 obedience routines, no protection or tracking work (would have liked to stay longer, but I had to get back to do something else this afternoon). All the dogs I saw scored between 70 and 74, so I don't know how representative that is, but as a group they didn't appear to be particularly into their work.

So yeah I think I'll stick with my current motivational methods for the time being.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have been around many people in several venues that believe you can build drive/desire to work though deprivation. The dog is only out, given attention to, fed, etc when they work. They don't want to work food, attention, toys are withheld. It is a form of negative punishment and often used by those who do not believe in positive punishment. It is also used by those who treat dogs like training equipment. No different than a baseball glove. 

I hated this mindset when I first heard of it 30 years ago and my opinion has not changed.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

lhczth said:


> They don't want to work food, attention, toys are withheld. It is a form of negative punishment and often used by those who do not believe in positive punishment.


Now that I actually _do_ use, although not in the sense of kenneling the dog except when it's being worked or depriving of it water, meals, etc.

The version I use is more like Denise Fenzi's "Fred": Meet Fred | Denise Fenzi

...except since I actually have two dogs, I'll switch off and work Crookytail for a few minutes with LOTS! OF! ENTHUSIASM! if Pongu is flagging. Meanwhile Pongu just gets ignored.

It never lasts for more than about five or six minutes because Crooky is, alas, dumb as a box of rocks and I can only take so much pretending to be excited by his enthusiastic but inept efforts. But it sure gets Pongu back in the game. And meanwhile Crooky gets some attention and cookies and maybe a couple of inches closer to whatever project he's currently been assigned, so it's win-win for Dog Mob.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I have also seen this used a lot by people who don't believe in, or want to use corrections for crappy performance. Personally I would much rather use fair corrections over deprivation. It's not just bite sport people who do this, a lot of performance sport people seem to use it because they believe that correcting dogs is evil! (But not letting them enjoy life is fine lol)


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

My trainer has sent me in this direction in that I'm to remove all toys and basically crate kaiser before nd after training. Its hard for me because he's a pet first and my natural inclination is to love on him and spend all my time with him. I understand the difference between a true pet and. True working dog, and I realize that not every dog within those categories requires the same type of training. I will say however that Kaiser is more engaged now, than he was before. Will he be a top sport dog in any venue? No. But that's ok. I DO want a flawless bh routine and I DO want kick a** focus during whatever spoet we do pursue though. If this gets me there, when nothing else did, then ill give it a go. 

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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

KristiM said:


> I have also seen this used a lot by people who don't believe in, or want to use corrections for crappy performance. Personally I would much rather use fair corrections over deprivation. It's not just bite sport people who do this, a lot of performance sport people seem to use it because they believe that correcting dogs is evil! (But not letting them enjoy life is fine lol)


Yeah. It is hypocritical and a contradiction in itself.

I do not like doing it either...however, skipping a meal to use it during training is something I do.

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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I cut tennis balls out for awhile when we first started training. We were working on grip and not chewing. The tennis ball had started a habit of chewing and wanting to hold everything in the front of his mouth (where the tennis ball comfortably goes). His grip is great now, nice and deep, and no chewing on the puppy sleeve. I could probably get the tennis balls back out, just haven't thought to.

I haven't done it for food. I haven't had any need to, but if the dog's food drive wasn't there I would consider skipping the morning meal the day of, or the night before and then just feed it on the track or during obedience.

Dogs in general are driven by the survival instincts, food, play/prey, sex, etc...it makes sense that the surefire way to up the drive for any of these things is to deprive them of it. No food=increased their want/drive for food (or to perform for it, ie hunting), locked in a crate, isolated=increased desire(drive) for play/pack interaction, don't let them breed a female in heat==well, you can imagine that picture lol. That's what makes all these things happen in nature. 

Burt Bellon talks about this. He uses an eagle or hawk as an example. Bird wakes up, get hunger pains, the hunger pains up it's hunting drive, bird starts looking around and hunts---gets the reward of eating. If they didn't have the hunger pains, wouldn't have the drive to hunt, wouldn't eat, and would die.

It's all up to the handler, what they think their dog needs, and what type of dog it is (what it brings to the table genetically) and what it's history is.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

KristiM said:


> I have also seen this used a lot by people who don't believe in, or want to use corrections for crappy performance. Personally I would much rather use fair corrections over deprivation. It's not just bite sport people who do this, a lot of performance sport people seem to use it because they believe that correcting dogs is evil! (But not letting them enjoy life is fine lol)


:thumbup:


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I think a good question to piggy back off of the OP question is, what is a proper amount of deprivation to create drive?

Obviously deprivation creates drive (it's what makes the world go round in nature). But too much deprivation leads to death, decreased mental state, starvation, etc....so where is the line drawn? When is it okay and not okay?

I believe of course it depends on the dog and what the dog is bringing to the table. Is it stable, balanced nerves, what types of drives does it have without deprivation? You can't take a neurotic dog, leave it in a kennel for a day or two, and then bring it out expecting it to be a stellar obedience specimen. It'll probably be a mental mess.

This topic makes me wonder if we are having to breed higher than "natural" drives into dogs than would occur in nature. Because we aren't like nature, because we don't force our dogs to get hunger pains---hunt--reward of food, we are breeding dogs that have that prey/hunt drive without requiring a hunger pain to induce it. 

In turn, maybe that's why natural selection has dulled down such drives in modern pets. Because there is nothing to force the reproduction of prey-drives, house animals never have to hunt, they don't go hungry without drives(because we feed them) so natural selection isn't weeding out those with low survival drives....hmmm...just thinking out loud, sorry if I don't make any sense lol. Any thoughts? Am I thinking about this wrong?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I recommend a <little> food deprivation for people coming out to train. As in don't feed dinner at 4 for a 5:30 class. Generally, just skip the previous meal and feed during training. 
They don't have to do this at home, but often the dogs are a little nervous and unfocused when in a strange environment, so being a bit hungry helps to make the training session doable and fun.

For my own dogs.... shoot.... I generally have to feed a small meal first or they are so food driven they can't think straight.
They always have toys, access to me, and the other dogs.
They are crated on the way to training.

I would never, ever withhold water as a form of deprivation training. What a horrible idea.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, in the other thread I said I was doing something different with Recon than I had done with Mina. For me it seems to really be working. He does spend most of his time in a run or crate. when I let him out, he must engage with me either with a ball on rope or tug. Point being when he comes out it means it's "work" time. If he doesn't want to engage he gets put up for a few minutes and I try it again. This actually happened at training today. He was more interested in what the other dogs were doing than me. I put him up for 5 minutes, brought him back out and he was engaged. He does get puppy explore time when he gets zero commands (other than the engagement when I let him out) and can just be free. I don't with hold meals per se but I do make him work for them. Or like this morning, I fed him half at breakfast time then the rest during obedience. I will say I have never had a puppy so engaged. Every second he is out he just wants to be near me. Not the usual puppy near me. This is so much more. Oh! Toys, he doesn't get stuffed toys. Mostly because he tries to eat them. He does however get kongs and things like that. I also let him play with the indestructible ball. Mostly kongs eggs, teething type bones and what not. Nothing that resembles a toy I would use for training(except the ball). So yeah, it's really working for me with this puppy.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

mycobraracr said:


> Well, in the other thread I said I was doing something different with Recon than I had done with Mina. For me it seems to really be working. He does spend most of his time in a run or crate. when I let him out, he must engage with me either with a ball on rope or tug. Point being when he comes out it means it's "work" time. If he doesn't want to engage he gets put up for a few minutes and I try it again. This actually happened at training today. He was more interested in what the other dogs were doing than me. I put him up for 5 minutes, brought him back out and he was engaged. He does get puppy explore time when he gets zero commands (other than the engagement when I let him out) and can just be free. I don't with hold meals per se but I do make him work for them. Or like this morning, I fed him half at breakfast time then the rest during obedience. I will say I have never had a puppy so engaged. Every second he is out he just wants to be near me. Not the usual puppy near me. This is so much more. Oh! Toys, he doesn't get stuffed toys. Mostly because he tries to eat them. He does however get kongs and things like that. I also let him play with the indestructible ball. Mostly kongs eggs, teething type bones and what not. Nothing that resembles a toy I would use for training(except the ball). So yeah, it's really working for me with this puppy.


My question would be "why?"
If you are doing schutzhund as a breed test, why do you want to create some artificially inspired set of behaviors?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gagsd said:


> My question would be "why?"
> If you are doing schutzhund as a breed test, why do you want to create some artificially inspired set of behaviors?


 
I do other sports as well, I just don't treat schutzhund itself as a sport just a breed survey. Also I don't necessarily think you can artificially create drives, just enhance them. So if by doing this I enhance the qualities/drives I want in my dog then why not? Like I said it's working great for me. My dog loves me. It's evident. So...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I usually won't feed a big meal before tracking, but I do feed a bit otherwise my dog gets the bile barf and his gut gets upset, so then he isn't motivated to eat. Searching for food on the track has never been high value to him anyway. Especially if there are ants on it! I use to use the meal as the reward, but even that wasn't high value to search for. My dog still wanted to track after the jackpot.
I use food rewards for obedience sometimes, but my dog would rather work for a toy than food. A couple weeks ago after tracking, he chose food, not a ball....just depends on his mood!

As far as crating after a training session, I'm all for that. 
It gives the dog some processing time and no matter what phase you just did, the crate time is as important as the session, IMO. If I were to go on to something else after a really good learning session, what the dog just learned won't be retained as well. Though rewarding after tracking with a quick tug/fetch session, because the dog just found his ball or tug is fine. Tug on the way back to the vehicle and crate him.
The only time I crate my dog is when we are training...seldom if ever is he crated at home. I'd rather have my dogs loose in the home if we were broken into, than locked in a crate. 

I do have certain toys only for training, and rotate them so they retain some value. My dogs get other toys w/freedom. I allow my dogs to interact with each other too.

I don't think breeding for higher drives is necessary, breeding for balance however, is very important! BUT I don't think breeding dogs with low drive is correct either.
A balanced high drive dog with work ethic/stamina is perfection, IMO.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you may get some advantage to a performance -- but you won't get an advantage when selecting genetics for breeding.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I understand the concepts behind this thinking. 

If you have a wonderful dog with a nice amount if drive, but they expend that drive in the normal course of the day, ie, playing with dog housemates, playing with a favorite squeaky toy, chasing the cats, getting in the trash, running the farm, then they are more likely to not have the NEED to express those drives in work. So by eliminating the possibility if them getting " rewarded" or having fun from non useful expressions of the drive, a handler would be more easily able to use that drive directed in the way they want. 

I get it, I just don't buy into it. I refuse to own an animal that must be kennels and isolated for long periods for it to work. I am perfectly capable if managing my dogs free time in a way that they are not expending drive all the time. 

That said, I do use some if theory in moderation. My dogs do not have breakfast before training, if I am going to be using food. They do not come out and socialize with dogs and people when at the training field. Training is for work. They are put in their crates after each work session. 

My new pup bonded very quickly to my Lab. So right now I am giving them limited time together. So a bit of rotating, until I am more important that other dogs. 

But I refuse to not have regular living interaction with a dog in my house. That's just not how I want to live and train. 

One more thing. Confining a dog to a crate and only bringing them out to train, may help build a bit if drive. But not that much. You are never going to turn a low drive dog into a high drive dog. You may harness the drives they are born with a bit better. But you can't MAKE drive. 

All if my dogs live and interact with me and others all the time. In fact they are all sleeping at my feet right now. And they all have been perfectly capable of jumping right into work when asked. 


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If you raise and train a puppy for a "purpose" and the puppy does not work out.... hips, EPI, whatever.... I think we owe it to the dogs to have prepared them for "normal" life.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

gagsd said:


> If you raise and train a puppy for a "purpose" and the puppy does not work out.... hips, EPI, whatever.... I think we owe it to the dogs to have prepared them for "normal" life.


I'm going through this right now. Havoc was raised with a huge emphasis on drive and engagement. At 2 years old he has degenerative lumbosacral disease and is having to learn to deal with being a "normal" dog after 2 years of being a working machine. It's not fair to him and it SUCKS for me. If all you have is a good working relationship with your dog and that all of the sudden disappears, it's really hard on them and you. I will NEVER raise a dog like that again!!!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

KristiM, sorry to hear this. There are lots of venues you can still work him in. Noseworks, for one, it is still engaging but no impact. Just using his brain and nose. I have a friend who has a dog with back issues, and it has been a lifesaver. 

But yes, I believe the dogs should be able to function in a home setting as well as work. All if my SAR dogs have. It's possible and so much more rewarding, for me at least, to be able to enjoy them away from training as well. 


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i really hate this thread, altho i only read the thread title, i hate the thoughts behind it and hate the people that would even consider this to be worthy of discussion on a dog forum.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

X11. Maybe you should read the thread then. 


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

x11 said:


> i really hate this thread, altho i only read the thread title, i hate the thoughts behind it and hate the people that would even consider this to be worthy of discussion on a dog forum.


Not talking about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist....if you don't want to talk about it than don't participate. There are plenty of other things on here being discussed. If people never talked about things they considered unpleasant, no lessons would be learned from our history and no improvements could be made to current methods and ideologies. 

That being said, I think everyone on this thread has been actively participating without degrading or demeaning any other's viewpoints. There are lots of training methods out there. It's always good to be as educated as possible about all things. Then the choice is, of course, yours, as to whether or not you choose to practice anything you've read.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Very common method over here with working sheep dogs.
Most are chained unless they are working. The guy we got our kelpie from believes she has not reached her full potential because we have allowed her too much freedom......she lives with us and is also a pet so he thinks we have spoiled her. She is very handy BUT does lack that extra drive that would make her brilliant but I just think that is her not the way she is kept. Our neighbours have the best paddock/yard dog most have seen and he sleeps inside and spends alot of time with the kids as a pet and he is still a cracker.
If keeping Miley locked up all the time so she works better is what we had to do then I would rather not have a sheep dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

As everything, all is in the degree. While I wouldn't keep a dog as a kennel dog I do use my kennel while Im working with one of the dogs and then the one who was in the kennel gets out with more energy, but I don't think it. "creates" the drive, the drive was there from the beginning and I only used frustration. Frustration is older than dirt in dog training and a powerful tool.

From what I've seen deprivation of affection, food and or play is really useful only with mediocre dogs and handlers who either don't have the genetic back up or the ability to bring the best of their dogs.

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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

gagsd said:


> My question would be "why?"
> If you are doing schutzhund as a breed test, why do you want to create some artificially inspired set of behaviors?


Yeah that is what I thought - creating drive happens when a breeder makes the right pairing, and the person gets the right pup for them. I have picked up rescue pups from transport that are ready to do attention heeling, with pneumonia. Nothing done to them ever. 

I know this is more for pet dogs: 5.03 Deprivation in Dog Training | Dog Star Daily and it's too long for me to listen to so I will just leave it there - the podcast can be heard on the computer too. 

Way back when I got Bella trainers told me to ignore/crate her and then not feed her - for up to a day - before training - ha - basic obedience (she was great, just plodded). So I had a freaked out, hungry dog who was too nervous to eat anyway. She was not a dog who could do this, and one size fits all thinking was quite uncomfortable for a dog like her. Thankfully I tried it only 2x. Over time, our bond deepened (after I stopped trying these tricks with her!) and she became more animated as she was able to understand me better. She is not a drive-full dog though, no matter what. :wub:


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

So, if I am going to give my dog 2 cups of food a day, and I give him that during training but not in his bowl during feeding time.... is that deprivation?
I would say not. But if he doesn't want to engage and I put him up without food, and bring him back out the next day, then that would be deprivation.
(I see that style a lot in tracking.)


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I guess another question should be "do you think you can create drive?" See I don't. The dogs drives are it's genetics. IMO all you can do is bring out the drive that the dog has to it's maximum potential. You're not going to take a low drive dog and turn it into a high drive dog. 

I think Catu-"As everything, all is in the degree." hit the nail on the head. I think a little deprivation is good. Like I said Recon is crated or in a run most of the time. He has a high pack drive. I have worked 12 dogs from his kennel/lines and all had very high pack drive. So I exploit that a bit. He still has tons of interaction with me. At night he is crated inside the house. In the morning he gets out for a 20 minute obedience/play session then is free for about an hour. Like right now he's been laying at my feet eating a bully stick. Then he gets put in a dog run while I'm at work. I like my dogs acclimated to the weather as much as possible. When I get home we usually go on a short hike or socialization trip that usually last about an hour. Then he's back in the run. Before I go to bed we do another obedience/play session and sometimes he gets some hang out time then as well. So Even with all that crate/run time, it adds up to about 3 hours of actual interaction a day.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think it's a bunch of BS. I agree that crates can be used for a little time-out or something along those lines, but I think you have a problem with your dog if you need deprivation to create drive! I don't really consider what the topic of this thread started as and things like skipping a meal before training are the same thing...I mean, most dogs are fatty boom balatties anyway and shouldn't be getting double the food!

I know a lot of working dog people kennel their dogs (some because of their set-up, others by preference) so the dogs aren't put in an atmosphere to be corrected for being wild things in the house. Not the same thing and most of the dogs that I know are not deprived in any way, shape, or form and get plenty of "down" time having fun as well.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

It's not my thing in the extreme sense. First and foremost, rogue is our family pet. I do however, only give a partial meal in the morning of training. Partial because if I withheld it, her food drive would be so much so that she can't think straight. She gets the rest during obedience. I also have a tug and ball on a rope that I only use for training rewards. That's mostly because they are expensive and if left laying around they would get ruined. She is crated whenever its not our turn on the field, the day Of training. Any other day she is just a normal dog. And she has great focus and drive.  


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Withholding food as a punishment is cruel, especially if we are talking about more than a day. And doesn't make sense to the dog anyways. Im sorry, but just like any other sport, schutzhund (or mondio/French/psa etc) is JUST A SPORT. And if you take it so seriously that you are crating/kenneling your dog constantly, withholding food or companionship, you need to re evaluate things. This is a life we are talking about. Not sports equipment. 

(You being any person, in general. Not to anyone here in this thread) 


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

What I find interesting is, I'm reading a book right now written by Sheila Booth called Schutzhund Obedience Working In Drive. In the first couple chapters she talks about some if these very things. She recommends some of these same things to build drive in the dog. If the dog has a high pack drive then limit the free time spent with the dog. Limit food on training days so the dog will be in a higher state of drive for the food. Get the dog crazy for the ball/toy then put the dog away not giving it the ball so it will come out wanting it more. What I found interesting about this is that if I recall correctly, Sheila Booth is a well known pure positive trainer. She also talks about if a dog is not cut out for it or does not genetically have the proper drives to begin with then don't train the dog. That's a topic for another time. 


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Capone22 said:


> Withholding food as a punishment is cruel, especially if we are talking about more than a day. And doesn't make sense to the dog anyways. Im sorry, but just like any other sport, schutzhund (or mondio/French/psa etc) is JUST A SPORT. And if you take it so seriously that you are crating/kenneling your dog constantly, withholding food or companionship, you need to re evaluate things. This is a life we are talking about. Not sports equipment.
> 
> (You being any person, in general. Not to anyone here in this thread)
> 
> ...


Schutzhund is no longer just a sport, for many it is a business. And whenever it turns into a business, its about money. If it is about money, the methods become less than stellar.

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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree that overdone withholding food could be cruel, but over feeding is bad too.

With young dogs we give a LOT of treats while training, that PLUS their normal rations can cause them to become too heavy.

The people I have trained with didn't withhold food for 'punishment' they did for the reason I mention and the reason cited by mycobraracr above.

Ilda was high defense and not as much prey drive so we did build desire for the rag/tug by withholding it/toys. It's sort of the 'grass is greener' effect, they want what they can't have. I have to say it worked and in my case it was sort of a light bulb moment where she realized 'wow this game IS fun' then we didn't have to keep withholding.

I think this is an important distinction, if the dog doesn't have the drives deprivation probably wouldn't yeild much in the way of results?

At the end of the day I agree with the comments about if someone is really extreme with the methodolgy then it's wrong and probably the dog is wrong for the sport too.

mycobraracr - I like that book, I have it too, it is mostly about setting the dog up to succeed using positive methods... 



Capone22 said:


> Withholding food as a punishment is cruel, especially if we are talking about more than a day. And doesn't make sense to the dog anyways. Im sorry, but just like any other sport, schutzhund (or mondio/French/psa etc) is JUST A SPORT. And if you take it so seriously that you are crating/kenneling your dog constantly, withholding food or companionship, you need to re evaluate things. This is a life we are talking about. Not sports equipment.
> 
> (You being any person, in general. Not to anyone here in this thread)
> 
> ...


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My male had very little drive or motivation to stay committed to the track until he started tracking for his meals. Every day last summer we would go tracking twice a day. He had two opportunities to track for his meals and if he chose not to track then he chose not to eat his food. When he would blow it off and goof around instead of staying focused and committed to the track, he went hungry. I don't consider that cruel at all. He was in no danger of dying by missing a meal or two and it taught him more dedication to the track. 

Then again, I'm not the kind of person who wants to wash my dog out of the sport just because we have struggles in our training and he isn't genetically cut out for it. I like to figure out ways to work with what I have.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I think mild deprevation is okay. Not feeding before obedience training or tracking( so they are more focused to get the food), only using certain toys for work, and crating before and after. 

In SAR, we run into this a lot. Dogs who will only search for food. The issue I have with it, is that the dog KNOWS he will get fed when he gets home. It's less of a motivator if it has no value. I know some of the airport dogs get fed while working, NOT for no reason. That works. 

But search work is hard. And if the dogs know they eat either way, maybe they won't work in horrible conditions. I have known dogs that are food reward. But they are few and far between for this reason. 

What I refuse to implement and buy into is the " only out of crate for work." For most people that would mean a dog crated for 21 hours a day. Thats cruel. But to use the crate to refocus and channel before and after training is fine 


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> mycobraracr - I like that book, I have it too, it is mostly about setting the dog up to succeed using positive methods...


 

I'm really liking it too. It's based off the same theories that many top competitors/trainers use (Ivan Balabanov, Mike Ellis and the likes). Both my trainers use the same theories but have their own spin on them just like every trainer. I got my copy from a mentor of mine who has competed in multiple bite sports on the international level. He told me to read so of course I am. The best part is because it was his I have highlighted sections and notes in the margins.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I agree that overdone withholding food could be cruel, but over feeding is bad too.
> 
> With young dogs we give a LOT of treats while training, that PLUS their normal rations can cause them to become too heavy.
> 
> ...


Yes, in my other post I said I too withheld some to acct for the treats. I'm talking withholding meals as an actual punishment. 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I'm really liking it too. It's based off the same theories that many top competitors/trainers use (Ivan Balabanov, Mike Ellis and the likes). Both my trainers use the same theories but have their own spin on them just like every trainer. I got my copy from a mentor of mine who has competed in multiple bite sports on the international level. He told me to read so of course I am. The best part is because it was his I have highlighted sections and notes in the margins.


I'm going to have to look for that book. Sounds like a good one. 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

hmm,O.K. but deprivation isn't used as an after the fact punishment *usually*. Someone who would withhold food as an after the fact punishment is really off kilter.

How on earth will a dog make the connection he's not getting food that day for something he did wrong in training earlier in the day? 

I think *most* people involved in the sport are savvy enough to know that's not effective. 

btw- Sheila Booth's book is good, even for people not participating in SchH. It really is a helpful aid to understanding our GSDs and their drives and how to use them positively. 



Capone22 said:


> Yes, in my other post I said I too withheld some to acct for the treats. I'm talking withholding meals as an actual punishment.
> 
> 
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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

lhczth said:


> I have been around many people in several venues that believe you can build drive/desire to work though deprivation. The dog is only out, given attention to, fed, etc when they work. They don't want to work food, attention, toys are withheld. It is a form of negative punishment and often used by those who do not believe in positive punishment. It is also used by those who treat dogs like training equipment. No different than a baseball glove.
> 
> I hated this mindset when I first heard of it 30 years ago and my opinion has not changed.


I should have quoted before. I was responding to this when I said food being withheld as punishment. 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> hmm,O.K. but deprivation isn't used as an after the fact punishment *usually*. Someone who would withhold food as an after the fact punishment is really off kilter.
> 
> How on earth will a dog make the connection he's not getting food that day for something he did wrong in training earlier in the day?
> 
> ...


See above ^

Was just talking to a group member today about how some of the French train for ring. She used this example "dog is on a bite. Owner says "out & here command" dog doesn't out. Several more times. Dog finally outs and comes to owner who the. Beats the crap out of it. She tried explaining to the trainer that the dog does not understand why it got beat and now thinks he got corrected for coming. The French guys disagreed. The dog knew exactly why he got beat" so yes. Sport people or not, some people are just idiots. And that was a popular club/kennel in France known for a heavy handed approach. 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah that's why I used the words "*most*" and "*usually*" in my post. I know there are some people who are like that and agree they are idiots. I saw it in the horse show world too and even confronted a few of those 'idiots'. Not that it made a difference.  

I've been around animals in performance venues for enough years to have witnessed these sorts of things as well. 

Anyhoo I get what you are saying but this straying more into examples of plain old physical abuse of dogs. I do think that overall trend in training is moving away from the sort of stupidity you illustrated by the story in your post. Thankfully.






Capone22 said:


> See above ^
> 
> Was just talking to a group member today about how some of the French train for ring. She used this example "dog is on a bite. Owner says "out & here command" dog doesn't out. Several more times. Dog finally outs and comes to owner who the. Beats the crap out of it. She tried explaining to the trainer that the dog does not understand why it got beat and now thinks he got corrected for coming. The French guys disagreed. The dog knew exactly why he got beat" so yes. Sport people or not, *some* people are just idiots. And that was a popular club/kennel in France known for a heavy handed approach.
> 
> ...


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

If you punched that French guy at the exact proper time (clicker training) then he would know you punched him because you saw him beating his dog.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

My trainer today wanted me to withhold treats until proper performance, he compared my overfeeding to getting paid before you do the job. I agreed by comparing it to unions and I think he thought I was objecting to him? -Im a 15 year teamster.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

I firmly believe withholding rewards, food, toy, sleeve whatever can have a positive influence on training given in the correct doses. 

I have to be very careful denying my dog access to the helper as he can tend to start getting a bit creative in his outlet for drive release....


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I think there is a big difference between withholding reward, and thus depriving the dog of access to what it wants, within the context of specific training exercises and using deprivation as a means to create a desire to work.

The former is something I think all trainers do in one way or another. It's just good training. If the dog doesn't follow the command, the dog doesn't earn the reward. But that isn't the same as deprivation.

IMO, some very moderate use of deprivation that is well thought out and specifically planned is fine. If you want to track, or work the dog in obedience for treats, it makes sense to make sure he's hungry and not do this right after dinner. (Though with some high food drive dogs, the opposite is true.... I've had dogs that I had to feed before tracking for example, or else they were too high in drive for the food and had trouble focusing clearly.)

I've taken it so far as to have the dog track for meals for a few days in order to teach the dog that tracking wasn't optional without using actual corrections or force. If the dog didn't track, the dog didn't eat. But the difference here is twofold. First, this would be for a few days, a week at most, to teach the lesson, not as a lifestyle. Second, and most important, the dog had the choice and the dog knew he had the choice on whether or not to eat. And I don't think I've ever had a dog skip more than 2 meals in a row, and that only once. I don't even like doing that, though this lesson is helpful for some dogs. 

True deprivation, where the dog gets nothing... no food, no social interaction, outside of working and then is put back up in a crate/kennel until the next training session... is something that has been advocated by many for eons. I have never been comfortable with this and have always thought it just plain sick. Partly because my dogs are as much pets as anything else and if they aren't hanging around, cuddling on the couch, playing and just enjoying living together with us what is the point of having dogs?? Beyond that, from a training standpoint, I fully believe that if one needs to deprive the dog of basic necessities like food and social interaction in order to create a desire to work, either the dog just plain doesn't have the right temperament for the work or the trainer is significantly lacking in knowledge and skill. Either way, using deprivation as a lifestyle is cruel.

I remember a few years ago when a club member attended a seminar with someone who bragged on how she had been able to title dogs in SchH with "purely positive" methods and no corrections at all. When he arrived he found several of her disciples proudly proclaiming how their dogs were ready to work because they hadn't eaten for 2 or 3 days. That is cruelty in my mind, but somehow justifiable because it meant they could pretend they were purely positive trainers. I'm pretty sure if someone asked the dogs, they'd have much rather gotten a few corrections in training that had to live that lifestyle.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I'd much rather not title a dog ever, before I'd put a dog through that. 

That's not postive training, that is the worst cruelty you can think of. Making a dog work for food is different than starving a dog for two or three days.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Some of the best care I have seen given to dogs was in the military, good medical care, good training care, and zero tolerance for abuse. Having said that, when I first started working with there various programs that was based in food reward, I found that the dog would earn half of their daily rations in training on Monday to Friday, then on Friday night they would get full rations even if they didn't get their half ration in training.....but they were not fed again until Monday morning. I asked the kennel master about this practice as I was new and he had 31 years in the dog unit. He explained to me that dogs have many traits that because of domestication have been submerged, but when placed in right environment they quickly resurface. One of these is the ability to go days without eating and not eating on schedule without ant physical/medical harm. It comes from the pack life. He said in polite society this is seldom seen because many people raise dogs like people.....but it not only has no negative effect( except in the heads of owners...lol), but dogs are remarkably resilient. 
Two points, any program that I have seen that uses this approach with dogs is of a temporary nature as food as training tool is usually faded from task as dog learns the task, second, this type of training is not for everyone, and there are other ways to get to same place, but that is a people preference issue, it is not an issue of causing pain or damage to dog. it's just another approach to training that when done correctly is very legitimate. I don't personally do this type of training because it involves too many steps that I don't feel like doing, but it's not because I feel that this type training is not effective or safe.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Mrs.K I'd much rather not title a dog ever, before I'd put a dog through that.
> 
> That's not postive training, that is the worst cruelty you can think of. Making a dog work for food is different than starving a dog for two or three days.


Would you think it cruel to with hold food for 2 or 3 days for a medical condition/ preparing for an operation/ cleansing the body after a poison?

In nature animals have to deal with sometimes not being successful on a hunt and not having food. It is a part of life. Mentally and physically dogs are able to survive on a lot less food than most people give them. It is not cruel to do sometimes withhold food for a specific purpose as long as the dog is fit and healthy. 

To neglect a dog and treat it poorly is cruel but I don't think that is what is being discussed in this thread. Any body who starves a dog long term and keeps it isolated is cruel and shouldn't be keeping dogs.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Some of the best care I have seen given to dogs was in the military, good medical care, good training care, and zero tolerance for abuse. Having said that, when I first started working with there various programs that was based in food reward, I found that the dog would earn half of their daily rations in training on Monday to Friday, then on Friday night they would get full rations even if they didn't get their half ration in training.....but they were not fed again until Monday morning. I asked the kennel master about this practice as I was new and he had 31 years in the dog unit. He explained to me that dogs have many traits that because of domestication have been submerged, but when placed in right environment they quickly resurface. One of these is the ability to go days without eating and not eating on schedule without ant physical/medical harm. It comes from the pack life. He said in polite society this is seldom seen because many people raise dogs like people.....but it not only has no negative effect( except in the heads of owners...lol), but dogs are remarkably resilient.
> Two points, any program that I have seen that uses this approach with dogs is of a temporary nature as food as training tool is usually faded from task as dog learns the task, second, this type of training is not for everyone, and there are other ways to get to same place, but that is a people preference issue, it is not an issue of causing pain or damage to dog. it's just another approach to training that when done correctly is very legitimate. I don't personally do this type of training because it involves too many steps that I don't feel like doing, but it's not because I feel that this type training is not effective or safe.





Chris Wild said:


> I think there is a big difference between withholding reward, and thus depriving the dog of access to what it wants, within the context of specific training exercises and using deprivation as a means to create a desire to work.
> 
> The former is something I think all trainers do in one way or another. It's just good training. If the dog doesn't follow the command, the dog doesn't earn the reward. But that isn't the same as deprivation.
> 
> ...


Two great posts, if there's a true *reason* for it then I don't see it as negative, but to do it just because...no


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

MadLab said:


> Would you think it cruel to with hold food for 2 or 3 days for a medical condition/ preparing for an operation/ cleansing the body after a poison?
> 
> In nature animals have to deal with sometimes not being successful on a hunt and not having food. It is a part of life. Mentally and physically dogs are able to survive on a lot less food than most people give them. It is not cruel to do sometimes withhold food for a specific purpose as long as the dog is fit and healthy.
> 
> To neglect a dog and treat it poorly is cruel but I don't think that is what is being discussed in this thread. Any body who starves a dog long term and keeps it isolated is cruel and shouldn't be keeping dogs.


That is a completely different circumstance and cannot even be compared to force tracking, for example. 

I do not even know how you can compare nature or a medical condition to any of this. 

Our dogs are NOT in nature nor are our dogs sick. None of what you have described has anything to do with Chris' s post!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cliff what is the source for this information " found that the dog would earn half of their daily rations in training on Monday to Friday, then on Friday night they would get full rations even if they didn't get their half ration in training.....but they were not fed again until Monday morning. I asked the kennel master about this practice as I was new and he had 31 years in the dog unit."

quoting Cliff "He explained to me that dogs have many traits that because of domestication have been submerged, but when placed in right environment they quickly resurface"

and yet through this domestication, some 15,000 years plus we have dogs that have a desire and willingness and ability to be "helpful" . They are not wild . I would wonder how long this artificial drive would last once the source of deprivation was satisfied . Nothing?

In another thread you said there are lots of BYB dogs in SAR and Law and Military. ??? 

I think military training is more sophisticated using Pryor's training theories with large marine mammals , which the military used for underwater service . Can't deprive one of them . Response would be --- see ya' later , and then go swimming off into the wild blue deep yonder.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I think military training is more sophisticated using Pryor's training theories with large marine mammals , which the military used for underwater service . Can't deprive one of them


I've heard the military use a device on the dolphins mouth so they can't open there mouths to catch fish when released from the subs. A wild animal like a dolphin would go awol otherwise. I believe Karen Pryor used tanks to keep the dolphins and did with hold food to achieve her results. There are probably cases of a dolphin wanting to work for humans like flipper but I would think that is rare.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Fasting for a day or two is actually common among raw feeders. It is not harmful to the dogs. This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about starving dogs for 4-7 days or having them spend their lives living in crates or kennels except for a couple of short work sessions a day. 

I, personally, would rather own and work dogs that want to work and do not have to be deprived of food and their pack (me) in order to entice them to work.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

totally with Lisa , that affects breeding decisions also. Why make it difficult when it doesn't have to be.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lhczth said:


> Fasting for a day or two is actually common among raw feeders. It is not harmful to the dogs. This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about starving dogs for 4-7 days or having them spend their lives living in crates or kennels except for a couple of short work sessions a day.
> 
> I, personally, would rather own and work dogs that want to work and do not have to be deprived of food and their pack (me) in order to entice them to work.


Agreed! 
Fasting is one thing. Depriving a dog for food to make them work and call it positive training is another. 



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