# If you got your dog from a BYB/PS..why? (long)



## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

I came across this question on a different breed forum, and I thought it might be interesting for people to post their reasons/experiences here. This can be years ago, or last week. I'm just curious to see what motivates people. 

My story: My childhood dog, Princess, died in 2004. It was heartbreaking for me, and I never really got over it, because I was responsible for her death (I let her out because I was running late for school, and when I went outside to get her, she started to run back to me and was hit by a car while I watched helplessly). I will never forgive myself.









(Here is a pic of Princess)









For the past 5 years I haven't been in any kind of position to get a dog (financially for a while, then I rented a "no pets allowed" apartment), so this past winter when my roommate and I started to talk about moving, I made it clear that I wanted to move somewhere that I could have a dog. So when I found my current apartment, I was so excited that I could finally get a dog, and perhaps a little piece of the void that Princess left could be filled. 

Now, I always knew I wanted a GSD. Princess was GSD in everything about her behavior. However, I started thinking, well, renting with a dog is hard anyway, why make it more difficult on ourselves by getting such a big dog? Maybe we should get a small dog. So I started doing research for several months, trying to find a breed that I felt a connection too. We decided on a mini Schnauzer. I never felt "right" about the choice. I found a breeder and spent two months talking with her until my puppy was ready to go. The night before we were supposed to get "Bella" the breeder called me and said that Bella hadn't been eating/drinking all day and that she would need to stay until they figured out what was going on. A few days went by, and something just wasn't right. The story kept changing, and finally after a week, I found out that the "breeder" was a small puppy mill operation. She was trying to wait until another litter was ready to be shipped to a pet store in a mall, so she only had to make one trip (I did some serious FBI work to find this information!). That was the last straw. It was a hard decision, as I had watched this dog grow for 8 weeks, but it was a decision I had to make. 

Fast forward about a month. I was tired of waiting. I have no real excuse for not going to a reputable breeder, except for the fact that I was impatient. I didn't want to wait months, or even years, before I got my pup. I found myself surfing an online classifieds site one day and there were several for GSDs. I thought I knew how to weed out the bad from the good, so there were some I knew to avoid right from the start. Then I came across an ad that said OFA on file, CH and GV bloodlines, 4 generation on site, etc, etc. If I were to read that now, thanks to this site, I would know better. 

So, I called the number, and the next day I went to visit the dogs. I drove about an hour into the mountains to a beautiful farm in upstate NY. Now, I will admit these people were BYBs. However, I believe they truly loved and cared for their dogs. They had 10 GSDs. Most were retired from breeding (he had every dogs vet records with spay/neuter proof because he said "we don't want anyone thinking we're a puppy mill here". He had one female who was in heat that wasn't being bred because she had a litter the previous heat, and he didn't breed back to back. He had a LC male that he didn't breed.

I spent about a half hour talking with him about GSDs and why I wanted one, and why he loved the breed, and different things about his dogs, etc. Then we went to see the puppies, which were kept in a section of the barn. He said they went out there at 6 weeks when they were fully weaned from their mother. Can I prove this? No, I have to believe him. 

There were 10 in the litter. All identical for the most part. Beautiful, fluffy, adorable puppies. He didn't keep individual records on them, so there really was no telling one from another. They hadn't been to the vet yet, so it would be another week before I would come back to pick one out. 

I tried to do temperament tests on the pups to the best of my abilities, and I left that day with a 7 week old puppy. 

To sum this up, I got copies of her parents pedigrees, and to me, it seems that she has some wonderful dogs in her blood, all from known kennels, right up until her own parents, where the registered names change to the breeders name. So, how did he end up with these dogs? I have no idea. I actually spoke to the owner of one of the kennels that appears in Alexa's pedigree, and she said that while some of the dogs should not have been bred for whatever reason, that these people were good people who were good to their dogs, but that they probably shouldn't be breeding. 

So far, so good. I hope she continues to be a great dog. I know that her background might be a little sketchy so I am always on the lookout for potential problems.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Your princess has some of the same features as my cotton.....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rjvamp/sets/72157612740873817/

I think she is Norwegian buhund...closest I could figure based on looks, size, weight.... I think a mix though....

Sorry for your loss with Princess.


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

Rocky came from a BYB, of course when we got him we had no idea what that meant. I found an ad in the paper and went, picked him up on Christmas eve in 2005. Neither Dh nor I knew much about GSD's, just that I wanted one because I knew my parents had them when I was little. (I dont remember them) When we got him he had worms, fleas, and a horrible staph infection. too about 3 months to get rid of it. He has always had ear infections, but we are able to control them with meds and diet. We had to deal with pano for about 6 months, he is currently being watched closely by our vet for HD.

I dont know anything about the breeder, he said the father was a show dog but after spending time on here I really wonder. At this point it doesnt matter because we have Rocky. Wouldnt trade him for the world.


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## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

Add:

I did go to a local shelter before getting Alexa. They had a 3-4 y/o black female that was an owner surrender when "she was no use to him anymore". The vet thought she had at least 3 to 4 litters in her life. I filled out an application, and after two weeks of giving me the run around, they just stopped returning my calls. I don't think they liked the fact that I didn't have a vet reference, as I had no other animals, which I understand, but was still upsetting. THAT was the final straw for me.


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

Shadow is def. a BYB dog. Our heart dog Smoke passed away on Feb 1, 2008. After having a dog around for over 15 years, I was lost. I work evenings, and saw a picture on Kijiji of a litter of GSD pups. There was 1 pup in the photo that called out to me. I went home and told my DH. After about 2 weeks, he told me to call the number and if they still had any pups, we'd go. They had 2 left, but couldn't tell me what ones. By this point it didn't matter, so we loaded up the kids and drove 2.5 hrs to the house. I couldn't believe it when they opened this little pen, and out ran my Shadow. It was easy to tell him apart because of the white marking on his nose. 

Shadow was healthy when we got him, no worms or anything, but he was sooo timid. He wouldn't eat from a dish, and was very small. We were told he was 13 weeks old, but we wonder about this.

I don't regret getting him at all, and wouldn't trade him for the world.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

I know "intellectually"that to buy a dog from a pet shop=back yard breeder is wrong.BUT how do you say that dogs bred/used for profit do somehow give up their right to a good life.Should everyone take the moral highground and realize that BYB might disappear if people do not respond to that 'puppy in the window' pet store dog.just wondering about those pet shop /puppymill dogs that we SHOULD NOT buy what happens to them and WHO suffers-surely NOT the poor 'puppy in the window'


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Our first dog, Lucky, we got from a pet store on Feb 3, 1996.

My sister and I (10 and 12 yrs old) had finally weedled our parents into letting us get a dog. We had "settled" on getting a small dog, probably a Shih Tzu because of my mom's alleged allergies. 

BUT...

We saw this cute, little, 5-week old, sable and white, Border Collie mix.

We didn't know any better about ages puppies should be before leaving momma and litter or why quiet and hiding behind stuff was not a good thing. Never mind not meeting the not small, non shedding criteria.

We had behavioral problems including barrier frustration, excessive excited barking, and shyness. Despite her problems she was the best $25 ever spent. She gave us almost 11 years of absolute love.

My little dog, Shania, is the dog we originally planned on getting. Small, non-shedding, Shih Tzu.

She undoubtedly came from a BYB. I bought her from a lady my sister was babysitting for when she was 4 almost 5 months. This woman bought her for her son (who was 6) when she was 4 weeks old. She had had no socialization with other dogs and when I asked for her "papers" meaning registration papers I was handed her vaccination record. It showed she only had one vaccine back when she was 6 weeks old. Her clean den instinct was and is gone after living in a house with the floors covered in piles of poop and puddles of pee (when my sis was sitting she would not go IN the house, she would take the kid and go elsewhere all day).

The old owner also wanted me to know what a deal I was getting for her. I was lucky to pay only $150 whe she paid $350 for her.







And also was proud that Shania was the sister of the other two dogs she got in previous years from the same people, both of which were "gotten rid of." When I picked Shania, she was 20 minutes away from going to the shelter.

I know better now and eventually I will probably adopt a dog from a rescue or shelter.

However, right now, I am not in a financial or physical position to add a dog to my family. The next will be coming from a reputable breeder with proper contracts, health clearances, registration, and breeder support. The plans include not only family pet but obedience trialing, agility, rally-O and depending on breed (which isn't set in stone) showing and draft work.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Jerzey is from a BYB. John and I are also students and had a limited amount of time to look for a dog. We wanted to get a puppy at the beginning of the summer so that, by the time school started, the pup would be okay to be alone for an hour when John and I had overlaps in class (something that only happened once or twice a week during the Fall.) 

Jerzey's parents were the best looking we had seen, really gorgeous. I have to admit, though, that I didn't like the way she was raising the puppies and the mother on Kibbles and Bits. The three puppies that she took out for us to look at also had dirty water to drink and, because of that, we took her early; at 6 weeks. We have her family tree thing (pedigree?) and AKC papers. At the time, that seemed legit enough for me. John and I knew nothing of "proper", responsible breeding until we came to this forum many, many months later. 

Ignorance is the reason we got a dog for a BYB. Price was another factor. Although, I think that if John had the knowledge he has now back then he would have just been more frugal and saved up or waited to get a dog.

We know that we will _never_ support a BYB Breeder again, that's for sure. Jerzey is a little more shy around strangers that we would like and, if we were to ever get another GSD, we would like one from parents with a more proven temperament history to quote "stack the deck in our favor."

We did, however, do a TON of research about the breed itself and knew what we were getting into as far as that is concerned. Sometimes I think her shyness is part of the breed but when I hear about so many other GSDs on the forum that are perfectly fine with strangers, I can't help but blame it on poor breeding. Either way, what's done is done and Jerz is our dog and we will take care of her until the end.







She is a definitely a great dog! So, while I refuse to support another BYB, I can't say that I regret getting Jerz!


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I got Denali from a BYB. When I think about the future with her I'm very scared so I try to enjoy everyday I have with her. 
Everyday I tell her "Denali, you better stay healthy your whole life or I'm going to kick your butt!".
Of course, I would never hurt her but you know what I mean!

I had been without my Collie/Shepherd, whom I missed very much, for a while and felt that void described by others. 
I saw an ad in the paper for White GSD's 30 minutes away from me. I knew it wasn't the best choice but I didn't understand why (I do now). We saw the pups and BF and I knew we wanted to have a female for once and fell for the little red bones girl









I carried her on my lap in the car and she fell asleep in my arms. I tried to tell myself that she was going to have to earn my love, but she already had me wrapped around her little finger.

She already has a great temperament with solid nerves, now all I pray for is that she lives a healthy, happy life.


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## lyndasglass (Jun 4, 2009)

I think that when you get a dog from a BYB it is really a buyer beware situation. My husband brought home an Austrailian Shepherd puppy from a BYB. He is a UPS man with a country route. There are a lot of Australian Shepherds/Border Collies on his route and he just loved what nice dogs they were. So when we lost our Lab/Rot mix of 12 years, he brought home this puppy. It had been a long time since we had had a puppy so a lot of the nippy/bitey stuff we thought was just puppy stuff. As he got older the biting got worse. It was impossible for anyone to come into our house or on our property. We tried to do research, training any thing we could think of to try to "fix" the little guy. After he had seriously bit 4 people. We contacted the "breeder" and they said something like "oh wow thats too bad". They didn't offer to take him back or help us in any way. One of the "breeders" kids did admit to my husband that the mom dog was kind of schizoid. The long and short is after consulting with aussie rescue and our vet, we ended up having the little guy put down. The most heart wrenching decision we have ever had to make.
We certainly learned a great deal.

On the other hand:
Our GSD I suspect came from a BYB. We were the 3rd owner after her "breeder" and we were told she was 8 months old when we got her. I can't believe that she had been passed around so much in her short life. She came with flees,staph infection, worms and with indications that she may have had a litter of pups (not so sure the 8 months was accurate).

She is a very sweet gentle dog. I found her on Craigslist believe it or not. I believe that she probably is a full German Shepherd. I wasn't looking for a show dog, a working dog, or a dog to breed just a nice loyal family friend. I had done a lot of research and felt like a German Shepherd would be a good fit for our family. So when I saw this GSD on criagslist I called them. So far I really love the breed if our Shasta is any indication. 

I know that there are good breeders and bad and the bad ones probably do not due the breed any good. But since I couldn't afford an off-spring from Rin Tin Tin to be a family pet, I am very thankful that we found Shasta and that we are able to give her a good home and that she has already repaid us with great loyalty.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

Mandalay, too, came from a potential BYB. I had looked at litters and litters and exchanged emails with numerous people. I drove about an hour to see Mandi's litter. They were in a barn. The parents were there, as were some of the other pups. I spent some time with the pups and the parents and the breeders. Mandalay kept calling to me. This was the 1st puppy that I really had a connection to after all the pups I saw. So she went home with me at 9 weeks. 

I know the lady she came from loved her dogs. She has called a few times and emailed to see how Mandalay was and has asked that I send photos and what not. She has also sent photos she has received from Mandi's siblings. I know that the woman had good intentions and was not out for the money (I also did not pay "the norm" for Mandi) but I think she just did not know better. I think she thought she WAS doing good.

The only problem Mandi has had to date was that she had Demodex when she was 5-6 months old. Her hips seem to be ok to date (but she will be 2 in January, so that could change anyday). I make sure I keep her vet care UTD and I have insurance on her that covers things like HD and other hereditery things that most companies do not. I pay a little more for a lower deductible and more coverage so that should anything go wrong, I know that having her fixed would not be an issue. We have been very lucky as far as her temperment and everything else so far, and I dont think that is going to change. 

I dont know if I got her from where I got her b/c I did not really know better at the time or if because of all the litters I looked at (some were nice dogs from very nice breeders with nice lineage) I just "clicked" with her. I truly did not really _want_ any of the other pups I saw. They were cute and their parents were nice, but they were pups...not any I HAD to have.

Since I knew I was not going to be breeding or doing any serious competing, and I was going to be having her spayed (she was spayed) and really only wanted a family pet, I fugured what the hay. Would I do it again? Who knows. I would not intentionally, but if I were in the market for another dog right now and there was a dog that needed "rescued" (I have already decided that I would not be getting another pup, I will rescue an adult the next time) and came from a BYB, then I guess I'd have to say that I would.


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## grmnshpd21 (May 5, 2005)

Molly came from a BYB, but I didn't even know what a BYB was at that point in time. I knew I wanted a GSD because I had one growing up and he was the best dog ever! A friend of mine knew a guy on her bowling league that bred GSD's and gave me his information. I went out to his house to see his dogs. He had 2 showline (male and female) and 2 female working line sables. He had just bred the two showlines when we went out to meet him. I really liked his dogs and wasn't alarmed by anything I saw at his house. They were all inside dogs and were loved by the family (he had 3 small kids). After meeting him and the dogs we were able to have top pick of the females. We brought Molly home when she was 8 weeks old. We got to visit the pups when they were 2 weeks and 5 weeks old too.
If I had known what I know now, I would have done more research before purchasing a pup. I am so lucky that Molly has been healthy up to this point and was OFA'd Good and Normal for hips and elbows. She is a fantastic agility dog and because of her I've become addicted to the sport. I couldn't have asked for a better dog and love her to pieces.

I just find it funny that when I send emails to her breeder updating him on all the titles I've put on Molly, that he doesn't understand anything about dog trials. I have put more titles on Molly than he has on any of his dogs. It is usually the other way around when you purchase from a reputable breeder


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm pretty sure chrono came from a BYB. I didn't know all the exact things that made someone qualified as a BYB. He was registered and his parents were OFA certified, so I thought that was good enough. I didn't know that being oversized was such a bad thing. I would have been able to see his parents if I had actually been able to get to the farm, but I'm bad with directions.

I got him for a low price of $500 at 4 months old and she registered him with the CKC and they sent the papers to me. I didn't care all the much about his pedigree, and I really can't ask the CKC for his pedigree because their website is really stupid. What I've figured out so far is that you have to send them a cheque in the mail requesting your dogs pedigree, but there's no price, you just send in a maximum LIMIT of how much they can charge you.

Anyways I went on all the pedigree websites looking up his parents. They weren't registered there. Then I went on the OFA website to see if his parents were indeed OFA'd. Nope. What a liar.


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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

Cheyenne and our Golden Ret., Bindi, are from BYBs. We got them before we knew better.

We got our Golden about 8 years ago in Texas and she is a great example AGAINST a BYB. As a puppy she had horrible fleas because she was kept outside with her siblings(they had to be called out/removed from under a shed when we visited them), she has hip problems, allergies, thyroid issues, and frequent ear infections ever since she was little, over all she is simply not a very healthy dog, doesn't damper her spirit though she has a great temperament! Can't say the same for the others, some cowered and hid, only a few seemed social and she was the only girl that socialized. Parents were AKC registered(supposedly, I don't think we asked for proof), but I only remember dad being on site...? A $250 puppy has cost WAY more than that in vet bills over the years. She's a great dog though and I wouldn't trade her for the world.

Cheyenne is also from a BYB, got her about 5 years ago, the BYB was a family friend and the experience has been much more positive. Parents were both on site, gorgeous dogs, great health, said they were registered and OFA'd and I have no reason to doubt it. Cheyenne has always been in excellent health, no signs of joint/hip problems, no allergies, no problems. Puppies were kept inside and got lots of attention from the friend and their kids, all well socialized. So while I really don't think our friend should have been breeding, they weren't horrible. We still update every now and then on how Cheyenne is doing and they love to hear it and see pictures.

Would I ever buy a dog from a BYB again? No, but I'm happy with my two BYB dogs regardless.


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

I have had dogs from shelters, top show breeders, BYBers, and tons of rescue situations. I've never bought a dog from a petstore, but I have fostered dogs whose owners did get them from one.

My GSD puppy is from a BYB if you're technical, I suppose. She (the breeder) does not show or compete. My puppy is nice IMO, though. His parents are X rayed, but not OFA. However, they are both four plus years old and clearly healthy and fit (I know they could still technically have HD and not show it, though). They also have had two prior litters, and I viewed a healthy, gorgeous adult. The breeder also gave me a two year hip guarantee, and I don't have to return my puppy for her to honor it. She also showed a clear understanding of diet, exercise, weight, and the factors which contribute to hip issues. It was good enough for me. Most of his ancestors are hip cleared- either with the German system, or with OFA.

When I got him, he'd been vaccinated, dewormed, and I got the necessary documents. He was clean and vibrant, CLEARLY very well socialized, and had been kept entirely indoors, which I liked. I KNOW that is true, as they had a lawn, but it wasn't even fenced. So, no way were they outside ever, except for supervised potty breaks. She had several kids who were carrying them all around and had even named them. He, so far, has a bombproof temperament and is a total doll. I housebroke him in a few days, and he appears to have been leash broken (or if not, is just such a smart, easy going puppy that it only took me five minutes to leash train him). He was free of any and all parasites, and the parents were too. Even mom was in perfect condition after having ten puppies. 

The dogs were clean and didn't even have crates. Total house dogs! I like supporting that (note: I am a fan of crate training for sure, but I appreciate seeing adult, trained dogs be house dogs!). They were gentle and mellow! They brought me toys, but in a laid back, calm way, and they were snuggly sweet. I walked in with my five month old infant in a carrier and set him down, and the dogs licked him and wagged gently. They were amazing!

He is a coat, but his parents are stock coats, so they were not breeding coats on purpose. He was the only coat in his litter, though the adult they retained from the previous mating (18 months prior) was a coat, too, and stunning. They obviously don't breed their bitch every season or anything, either.

Why I got him? Number one reason- temperament! Number two- I wanted German lines, prefer working (and he's largely working lines, some WGSL too). Number three- he was a bi-color coat- YUM! My favorite







Number four- yeah, price. We aren't broke, but I don't see DH shelling out $1500 plus for me to buy a puppy, just for me. I don't blame him in the slightest! 

I want a dog I can have as a house pet, companion, friend for my baby boy, and a helper dog for me (anxiety, etc). He is everything I could want. Of course I worry about hips and all, but I would no matter what breeder he came from. I may be odd for this, but I'd rather support a single family with two or three house dogs breeding loved, healthy, beautiful pets of good pedigree than a top kennel that has thirty dogs which live outside in runs and get little personal attention, but does everything else "right" by dog fancy opinion. In addition, the small family situation allows me to see the dogs in action, as house pets, not just pacing a run or showing off their working skills or being let out to run wild since they get no real attention normally.

I am very happy with his breeder, and would highly suggest the puppies to anyone


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogI know "intellectually"that to buy a dog from a pet shop=back yard breeder is wrong.BUT how do you say that dogs bred/used for profit do somehow give up their right to a good life.Should everyone take the moral highground and realize that BYB might disappear if people do not respond to that 'puppy in the window' pet store dog.just wondering about those pet shop /puppymill dogs that we SHOULD NOT buy what happens to them and WHO suffers-surely NOT the poor 'puppy in the window'


I totally understand what you're saying.My thoughts are these people have no morels anyway so to put down dogs because they are sick or homeless means nothing to them.I would rather save the dog then see it suffer or die.
Athena is from a reputable breeder but my Lexi is from who knows what.She has been through at least 3 homes in the 6 months till I got her.She was either a BYB making a new combo or a family that didn't spay there dogs and ended up with a litter.Her last family couldn't bond with her.If anyone has seen Lexi they will not understand that concept because with her face she is instantly adorable.She is full of personality and life.Athena was from a reputable breeder because Hubby wanted purebred and we hoped her health would be excellent if we spent the money.So far so good.Then again Lexi has been healthy too.The only thing with Lexi was she had a Cherry Eye that the previous owner fixed before I got her.
I can't say one way or another o buying from a BYB.If I came across one and thought the dog needed a home I would be the sucker that would buy the dog.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I guess Anna is from a BYB. After my Dal died suddenly and unexpectedly last December, DH and I began looking for a pup...we all needed one, including Duncan. We had done tons of research on GSD and decided that's what we wanted.

We contacted several paper ads, but most of them sounded weird. We called one that was actually about an hour outside our hometown in north Ala and after talking to them for like 30 min went up there that night. They even said it was fine to bring Dunc up to see how he reacted.

The couple lived on a nice farm and had a nice kennel run. They had two females and three males, one of which was too young for breeding (and was not being bred). They had two puppies left...a bicolor (which we'd never really seen before) and a more standard blk/tan. 

After spending time with the two remaining 12wk pups, it was clear the blk/tan was shy but the little bicolor was a spitfire. The husband said that was the one he had thought about keeping. When I told him I might do agility, he said he'd go with the bicolor. We met the parents and the other adults and was impressed with their OB. The husband said they used them on the farm as working dogs, the father of Anna even tracked down a deer he had shot that had fell in a creek and swam it back and returned it. (I guess we know where Anna's nose and love of water came from). 

We were there for hours (found out the husband knew my DH's dad!) and left with our little Anna. Oh, after she met Duncan of course...which involved her barking at him and licking his nose (some things never change). Took her to the vet, no worms and healthy. Her mom's pedigree is pretty good--German/Cezch lines with Sch titles, her dad's has a lot of BYB type dogs.

We still keep in touch with them and I send them updated photos. They informed us they just bought another solid black female and plan on breeding her next year. They only do about 2 litters a year. 

I've learned a lot about reputable breeders from here, and while I'm sure these people would be considered BYB, I love Anna to death and am glad we got her.


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## LHunter82FXRS (Oct 20, 2008)

Chico is from a BYB/oops litter. I had no idea I was getting him until we were at the house surrounded by puppies.

My bf always knew I liked GSD's, I read a couple books about them and did some casual surfing on the internet for breeders. But at the time, I was just going back to school so I really did not want a puppy. Well, he was diagnosed with cancer (turned out to be wrong, thank heavens) and later he told me that before he died he wanted to make sure I got my GSD. 

Someone he worked with had neighbors who had two GSD's, a black and tan female and an all white male, who had just had puppies. They didn't plan them, but the people had gotten the male and before he was neutered, well you know. So, my boyfriend finds out where they live, and plans to come down one evening.

That night I had no clue we were going to look at puppies! He told me that he was going to look at some tools that this guy had for sale. I believed him, because this is the type of thing he would do, buy stuff and resell it. 

Well, we get to his co-workers house and all three of us walk over to his neighbors. He knocks on the door and I hear dogs barking, but that doesn't mean anything to me, a lot of people have dogs. We meet the people and they are very nice and then we walk back outside. They say ok, here you go and open a door and all these puppies come out. 

I obviously have a confused look on my face, and my bf says here pick out your Christmas gift. I am just stunned!! This whole time I thought we were going to look at tools!! Now my mind is racing.....I don't have any puppy food, bed, leash, collar, etc. I am normally someone who plans so this was very confusing for me. 

The people let out the mom and dad. The dogs seem somewhat friendly, they did not try to attack us but they also weren't paying much attention to us also. From what I had read, I decided to get a male and I wanted a black and tan dog. They had a litter of 12, some white and some black and tan. I eventually settled on Chico, and asked some questions, when is his birthday, has he been wormed, etc. At the time it did not occur to me, but he was only 5.5 weeks!!! I really wish I would have caught that, but I was so overwhelmed that I completely missed it.

They had started feeding the pups Purina Puppy Chow, so my bf went out that night after we got home and bought some food and a dish. I did not know about dog food at that time also. 

Anyway, almost two years later I still have him and love him to bits! He does have some issues, (doggie manners, a little uneasy around kids) but we are working on those. He no longer eats Purina and with all the knowledge I have gathered I think we are going pretty good. I emailed the breeders from time to time, just to show pics and let them know how he is doing, but they stopped responding over a year ago









I did find out through the guy my bf works with that they kept two of the puppies and did have the dad neutered.


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

These are great stories! My GSD Dasher came from a BYB too. I wasn't as educated as I am now, but he came along at the right time and he just had this instant connection with our family. I was browsing CL ads and someone posted their 2 GSD pups. they were 4 months and past the fluffy cute stage, eating alot and needing training. The other pups went quickly and there was just these two boys left. So I got a great deal on him! He has been wonderful and everything I wanted in my first GSD. Both parents were friendly, used to kids, gorgeous, and seemed healthy. They were family pets and lived indoors. I would have liked to have either parent for my dog! 
Growing up this was how you got a dog, my parents never asked for hips or health guarantees, you just found someone with pups you liked and saw the parents, and made up your own mind. I have not regretted this once. I also have two great dogs (one pure GSD) from shelters who are equally wonderful. A good dog is a good dog, no matter where it comes from. 
I would buy from a BYB again, and likely will when my current pack ages. I am not opposed to the folks whjo professionally breed working, sport, or show dogs, but I need dog that is a family pet. I think the best way to get that is to find a someone that raises dogs in a family setting, to BE family pets. I definately am not going to buy a pup from a working line breeder, unless they have a totally mellow lazy pup that they need to find a home for ! 
I will have room for a GSD in a shelter too again when the timing is right!


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## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

Great stories! Both Gunner and Riley came from BYB.

With Gunner, I admit - we were in a little bit of a hurry to find a pup. Our Cooper (the Golden we had at the time) wasn't getting any younger and we wanted to bring home the new addition before he slowed down much more. We didn't want to be put on a list and have to wait god knew how long for a pup.
I started looking at newspaper ads, made a few calls and ended up saying "Thanks, but no thanks" to almost all of them. When I talked to Gunner's breeder, we were on the phone for about an hour and I just liked her. It was her first time breeding GSDs - something she told me immediately, right up front. She'd bred Pyrenees for years, but had always had a GSD too and wanted to give it a go. We went to see the pups, meet her, check the place out, etc., and I liked everything I saw. I decided to take a chance on her after I fell in love with Gunner's mother and, of course, little baby Gun-Man himself. He came home with us that day and if I could go back and do it over again, I wouldn't change a thing. He does have health problems, but he's just the best boy in the world. I don't regret a thing.

Riley's story is a bit different. We took him _because_ the breeder was so bad. I had been talking to a guy about a breeding he was planning the following spring. Very good breeder. For some reason, I looked through the paper one day just for the heck of it and saw the headline "great with kids." (Yes, because all Goldens just automatically come that way. Ugh!) I've seen enough in Golden rescue to know that a marketing promise like that can mean a death sentence to a Golden who doesn't live up to it. I called the woman and realized that she _was_ a BYB of the worst sort and decided right then and there that we had to save at least one of those pups. We went over there a couple days later and fell in love with Riley. He was the biggest and, by far, the biggest bully of the litter. We just knew that he had to come and live with us. We wanted a handful (and boy, we got one!) It was the right call. We joke now that he would have been doomed had he gone home with most other people. And here he is, my soul mate, so I think it was meant to be.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogI know "intellectually"that to buy a dog from a pet shop=back yard breeder is wrong.BUT how do you say that dogs bred/used for profit do somehow give up their right to a good life.Should everyone take the moral highground and realize that BYB might disappear if people do not respond to that 'puppy in the window' pet store dog.just wondering about those pet shop /puppymill dogs that we SHOULD NOT buy what happens to them and WHO suffers-surely NOT the poor 'puppy in the window'


You ask to buy the brood bitch!


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## BlakeandLiza (Aug 13, 2009)

Sorry for the long post, but each of my babies comes with their own story....

My GSD, Blake, came from a local "breeder". I don't consider her a BYB by normal standards, but I'm sure most would consider her one. Blake was the last of two puppies at 10 weeks old. The breeder lowered her price to $350 (which I know is extremely low) because of his age - she said it is harder to get rid of them the older they get.

Blake's parents were both on sight and in great condition. They are both AKC registered and OFA certified. The pups were kept in an outdoor kennel mostly, but were very friendly and playful with her daughter and my two children.

So far we have been extremely lucky with Blake. He has a great temperment, never had any health issues and has been a wonderful family dog! I wouldn't trade him for the world!

My Yellow Lab, Liza, is from our local shelter. I went to the shelter one day and the sad eyes staring back at me bought my heart up instantly! Liza was turned in from a family that kept her in an outdoor kennel during the day and a basement at night. She is a GREAT family dog and just adores being with any of us! Liza does have one problem though - she loves people too much! She almost comes across as making up for all the lack of attention - to the point of being abnoxious. But she loves us and is very reliable with her training so I'm able to take her everywhere. I'm really glad my kids and I have her looking out for us! Again, I wouldn't trade her for the world!

My husband's two beagles, Bud and Danny, DEFINATELY came from a BYB! My husband's friend told him about a man in WV that had awesome rabbit beagles, so naturally we had to drive many hours away to go see them.

When we got there, the house was just a normal house with a few dogs barking in the background. When we went behind the house, he had 147 dogs in his backyard! I was so upset; I didn't know if I wanted to throw up or cry!

Some lived in kennels, some were tied up with a chain to a stake with a little dog house, some were in these wire runs that sat up off the ground, and a few were in this building that had runs coming off of it so they could go in and out. And of course, they were all in different states of health...a few I could see their ribs, some would growl at me and my kids, others looked so starved for attention....IT WAS AWEFUL!

My heart broke as my husband seriously considered taking one of them home. My husband fell in love with one that was supposed to be a "good hunter" while I fell in love with another little guy that just had those sad eyes. My little guy, Danny, had been adopted, but for whatever reason had been returned to the breeder...so he didn't understand what had happened to him.

And in typical BYB fashion, since we couldn't agree on which dog, the breeder gave us a "real good deal" on two! As much as I hated getting the two of them knowing the medical problems they could have in the future and how much it would cost us in the long run, I couldn't leave them there and so wanted to take them all home and call the police on him!! It truely was aweful and I was really upset about the whole situation for several weeks!

When we got the beagles home and to a vet, they had ringworms, roundworms and hookworms, but other than that they are okay so far. Bud had really bad food agression that caused numerous fights in our home, plus he is somewhat of an alpha male and has really beatten up on Danny in the past. I think we have put an end to most of this behavior, but it is sad to think they had to learn the "survival of the fittest" skills at such a young age. They are both supposedly about 1 year old, although Bud acts a lot older than that.

I think that was my first real encounter with a true BYB and I hope I never have to see that type of dog abuse again! With that being said, I love all my babies and hope that they have a much better, love-filled life ahead of them with us!


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

I won't buy from a mill type breeder! But I also don't want to spend months searching for just the right one, to havepass all their criteria of what they consider a worhty owner, wait on a list, and have them choose a pup for me, and have to pay over 1K! There is a supposedly good breeder of Goldens out here and theye are very expensive, probably well bred, but will not sell a pup to anyone with kids under 14!!! I found this surprising as the golden is the classic family pet! I think many "good"breeders truley have good intentions, but bypass alot of possibly great owners due to thier stric rules. I know they are only trying to protect the dogs, but I always think of how if someone wants to buy a puppy, they are going to get one from a good breeder, or go elsewhere. Maybe they will go to a shelter, but they might also go to a BYB and find exactly the right pup for them!


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Lulu is also from a BYB when she was 12 weeks old. The lady was super nice and Lulu had all of her first shots, bordatella and 2 or 3 dewormings as well as micro chipped. She didn't have papers because they never registered the mom who is white. Both parents are gorgeous, her dad is black and tan and the lady said she was surprised that one of the pups was pure black! All the rest were black and tans, nearly identical! She was asking $650 for them but I only had $500 to spend. I had just lost my mom a few months before and had wanted a GSD all my life, I haven't had a dog since my border collie left 6 years ago and was so sad and lonely without mom that I decided I was going to get my GSD. I wanted a black one so searched long and hard but most were too much money ($1,000 +). I saw Lulu advertised in Kijiji and even though she was $650 I called the lady and we talked for a long time, I told her about my situation and she said she would let her go for $500 for me.

So far Lulu is an amazing and wonderful companion! She is so gentle with my daughter and has been so easy to train! I have read about a lot of issues people have with their pups and so far Lulu has had none of them, only very minor things. She only chews her own stuff, crate trained in one night, learns tricks and commands after only a few repetitions and is probably the most loving dog I have ever had! I wouldn't trade her for a $5,000 GSD with the best pedigree in the world







She is SUCH an amazing, loving and smart dog that sometimes I think my mom led us to her from heaven to help me get past my pain


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteI wouldn't trade her for a $5,000 GSD with the best pedigree in the world


I 100 percent agree with this!!


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

I feel the same way about my baby pup!


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## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

So many great stories. I wouldn't trade Alexa for another dog either. She has been an amazing puppy, compared to any other pup I've met. I'm glad she's in my life. 

I think BYBs have their place, just like every other type of breeder- there are good ones and bad ones. I don't think that being a BYB is necessarily a horrible thing, but unfortunately many of them are only in it for the money, so anyone with the cash can bring home a pup, no matter what their intentions. 

I have read 2 good points while on this forum:
1. You have no idea where your dogs brothers and sisters will end up. Maybe with a good family, or maybe chained to a tree all its life, maybe stuck in a 6 x 6 kennel, being abused, or used as a breeder. I wonder often where Alexa's brothers and sisters ended up.

2. Most BYBs give out full registration on their puppies, so after a few years there are potentially hundreds of dogs with the same bloodlines in a small area. The chances of inbreeding and overbreeding and increased.


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## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: OnyxenaThere is a supposedly good breeder of Goldens out here and theye are very expensive, probably well bred, but will not sell a pup to anyone with kids under 14!!! I found this surprising as the golden is the classic family pet! I think many "good"breeders truley have good intentions, but bypass alot of possibly great owners due to thier stric rules.


But the strict rules are part of what sets 'good' breeders apart from the rest. Better to bypass a dozen possibly great owners, if it saves one pup from going to a bad one.

Personally, I would have nothing but respect for this breeder. I think 14 years of age might be a little extreme, but if I were ever to breed Goldens, I would NEVER sell a pup to a household with small children. Too many end up in shelters or rescue because they're actually _not_ necessarily great with kids.
I often wonder what became of Riley's littermates, because of that.


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## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GunnersMom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: OnyxenaThere is a supposedly good breeder of Goldens out here and theye are very expensive, probably well bred, but will not sell a pup to anyone with kids under 14!!! I found this surprising as the golden is the classic family pet! I think many "good"breeders truley have good intentions, but bypass alot of possibly great owners due to thier stric rules.
> ...


I can understand both points, but I think a lot of good/great homes are passed by because of small things. For instance, many breeders/shelters/rescues require a fenced yard. I myself don't have one, but cannot wait until I do! I don't actually know anyone with a fenced yard. I think it takes a ton of extra effort on the part of the owner to exercise the dog properly without a fenced yard, but not allowing someone to purchase a dog from you because of this? I don't agree. 

The kids issue is still a little strange because most people want to get a dog after their family is started, in a way to "complete it". I think these things should be dealt with on a case by case basis, rather than a strict "No kids under 14" rule, or whatever the age.

But, who the enforce these things? How is the breeder supposed to trust that a perfect stranger will get the dog the exercise it needs to stay physically and mentally fit? How can they know that a dog will or won't do well with a family containing children? I don't know.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Call me odd, but I would rather buy from a BYB who loves their dogs, cares for them and just "wants a litter" than buy from a big name breeder who buys titled dogs and keeps them kenneled and breeding.

My Kenju is a BYBred. The vet clinic I worked for, had cared for his father since puppyhood. When Czar's owner told me Czar was a daddy, I went to see the pups and came home with one for $125. The next week they were marked down to $75


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I didn't have a fenced yard for Lulu until a few weeks ago and it cost us a bunch to build it! There was no problems at all without one. True, it is much easier and better now having one for her to hang out in when we're not out walking or at the soccer field, and nice that she can let herself out to go potty, but certainly not a necessity, she was just as happy without one as long as she could be by my side. She is lucky though because I am home all day most days and all she really wants is to be velcro'ed to me all the time LOL


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I agree about the fence thing! I've had high energy dogs in the past that were perfectly content not having a fenced yard. 
We would get out to a park every once in a while for off leash play but they were still fine. 

It always irks me when someone says "FENCE ONLY!". I put in time to make sure my dogs are exercised even without a fence.


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## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Stephanie17s
> I can understand both points, but I think a lot of good/great homes are passed by because of small things. For instance, many breeders/shelters/rescues require a fenced yard. I myself don't have one, but cannot wait until I do! I don't actually know anyone with a fenced yard. I think it takes a ton of extra effort on the part of the owner to exercise the dog properly without a fenced yard, but not allowing someone to purchase a dog from you because of this? I don't agree.
> 
> The kids issue is still a little strange because most people want to get a dog after their family is started, in a way to "complete it". I think these things should be dealt with on a case by case basis, rather than a strict "No kids under 14" rule, or whatever the age.
> ...


It's a gamble, for sure. A breeder can better the pup's chances, but I think it really comes down to a gamble in the end.

I'm really on the fence with the fenced-in yard issue. (Pun intended. lol.) On one hand, I'm all for the security of a fenced yard. But on the other hand, I think it can make it too easy for someone who gets a little busy to simply open the door and let the dog outside for half an hour, by himself, and call that "exercise." I don't think it would be a deal breaker for me, one way or the other, if I were a breeder.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

Cookie's breeder was most likely a BYB. *One*, they are, unfortunately, the most common breeders around. *Two*, this breeder originally sold her to a family that kept her in the backyard, and was planning on breeding her. Although accidents happen, this implies bad screening. *Three*, Cookie's sire and dam only had call names. *Four*, they were registered with the World Kennel Club. *Five*, Cookie's original owners sold her rather than giving her back to the breeder, which means that Cookie's breeder probably didn't have a contract stating that the dog was to be returned to her if the buyers did not want her or could not keep her anymore.

So. My owning a BYB-bred dog is both a coincidence and a result of no education in the area of breeders. My dad was the one who bought her. But I as well did not know any better back then. I was only eight years old, after all.
I'm happy to say, though, that since we bought Cookie from an individual owner, we did not support her owner's BYBing with money.


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

The fence rule really gets me. I actually give preference to people who HAVE to walk their dogs four times a day when I place rescues


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

I undrstand that some breeders have their own policies for selling their pups and they have every right to do so. I do not think its wrong, and I understand they are oly keeping the animal's best interest in mind. They are fortunate to be able to do so! 

However, there are lots of people who can provide a great home that may not fit the criteria required, and so the BYB become a very appealing option. I did look at "good" breeders when I was looking for a pup a couple years ago, but was continually finding their policies discouraging. Are some legit breeders somewhat flexible with their policies on a case by case basis? I was open to adopting, but the dog I met did not seem suitable for our family. 

Then I saw the ad for Dasher! Not everyone with young children is automatically an incompetant owner. Maybe they don't live in doggy utopia, but they have it pretty good here! I know it can be very challenging and lots of animals do end up losing homes because of that. I dunno, I think that both types have their place and both have their good points. Maybe it just depends on the individual situation.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I think animals will lose homes no matter where you get them, sadly








Lulu has proven to be the most gentle dog I have seen around kids where my border collie was awful with kids. From what I understand the reputable breeder has dogs who have pedigrees a mile long and they show their dogs, the more the dog wins the better the better the pedigree, also they know about the temperament of the the parents and the grandparents, etc. 

Finding a dog, I wouldn't care about the winning the show thing or perfect looks and I hear the lower hindquarters they are doing with US breeding for show is dangerous for their hips. I don't know a lot about breeding so don't flame me







but are these traits (temperament, not physical) really able to be bred? I can see the hip probs and physical stuff being able to predict as with human genetics but aren't dogs a lot like people where you could never know the temperament of your child as each is different? 

I am honestly just asking, not even really an opinion, I am curious. Lulu's BYBreeder had both parents hips checked and they checked out okay so that is good.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am going to move this to the breeder section because Lisa brings up good questions that I don't think us regular jo/joes can answer so well. 

I will say that all of my dogs are indirectly from backyard puppy producers as either shelter or rescue dogs. This thread makes me sad in a lot of ways because commercial kennels/puppymills or BYB who don't screen, don't educate-puppy producers basically-in a big way help to create the mess that we find every day in the urgent section. 

Reputable breeders work in a different way, much like reputable rescues, to try to ensure their dogs are well taken care of for life. And that includes breeding dogs that are most likely to do well in the human environment-dogs with good physical health and temperament. 

I would never give money to support the efforts of a puppy producer (aka buy a dog from them). It's kind of like knowing the restaurant you are going to isn't so up on the health code, but...sometimes you get a good meal. Yeah, other people may get food poisoning...but you didn't so it's okay. Every time someone supports them, it continues the cycle. 

So yes, I have BYB dogs. Why, because they were in shelters or rescue and were good matches for me. If I decide to purchase a dog someday it will be from someone whose values most closely reflect my own regarding dogs.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Lisa,
A few years ago, I had the opportunity to raise 2 litters of puppies at virtually the same time. One was European showline, the other European working line.
YES!!! temperament is genetic! Those two litters were so very different it was amazing. Both raised at the same time, in the same home.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

While I do not promote people breeding any dogs just to get puppies (the idea behind a BYB) I do find it odd that someone who thinks it is a GREAT thing to "rescue" a puppy from a rescue org or shelter (rescue fees around here are are as high as $300, probably more) would think it is not a good thing to "buy" a dog for that amount from a BYB, even though that dog will most likely end up in that rescue eventually anyway since most BYBs do not screen the people they sell to.

BYB dogs may generally have more health issues and behavior issues than a PB bought from a top end breeder, but so do rescues whose history is unknown. 

Will my next dog come from a BYB? Probably not. I would like to get involved in rescue when the baby is a tad bit older, so I am sure I'll end up falling in love with one of them and not being able to let it go.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The difference between buying a dog from a BYB, and adopting it (for an adoption fee) later on from a rescue, as that is were it ended up anyways - is that in the first instance, you are supporting the BYB, and by buying one of his dogs, are perpetuating and encouraging his practices. 

As long as people buy these dogs the BYB has a reason to keep producing them. I know that many people who bought their dogs from BYB were simply not aware of the many issues and ethics involved, and at one time, before this board, neither was I, so not a slight or a jab on people getting their pup from a BYB, just mostly people not being aware of the repercussions that their decision made in perpetuating a vicious circle.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DenaliFofaliI agree about the fence thing! I've had high energy dogs in the past that were perfectly content not having a fenced yard.
> We would get out to a park every once in a while for off leash play but they were still fine.
> 
> It always irks me when someone says "FENCE ONLY!". I put in time to make sure my dogs are exercised even without a fence.












With the "right" owner, often dogs that DON'T have a fenced yard get more exercise than those that DO. Often those with a fence will just put the dog in the yard and expect it to "exercise itself". (Which often doesn't happen.)

I don't have a fenced dog yard. (Meaning I have "fences" but they are not "dog proof", they are for containing horses and cattle.)
I DO live on 100 acres, BUT Siren can not be loose at home. She is to "into" the cats and livestock. So we go to the lake(in the summer) or rodeo grounds(in the winter) daily so that she can run loose and get exercise. 

The FIRST thing I ask a breeder is if they are against selling a puppy to someone with no fence. So far, I haven't been refused. BUT the "no fence" issue is the reason I haven't looked into getting a dog from a rescue.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Exactly, that's what irks me the most about some rescues. I always tell them I walk my dog 2-3 times a day PLUS all the other activities like fetch, swimming, hiking, walking in outdoor malls etc. 
But just because I don't have a fence, automatically I'm a terrible owner. Eesh, sensitive topic with me.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I know what you mean.

I know dogs that NEVER get to leave their "wonderfull FENCED yard". Yeah, that's a better life than not having a fence.
















I can see them "prefering" a fenced yard, but I don't think it should be the "be all end all". Especially if the person has other dogs and references.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i have gotten both from so called reputable breeders and BYB's. i hate to say it, but some of the best temperments i have had have been byb's, and some of the worst quirky nervy temperments have come from so called reputable breeders. so, basically i think its the luck of the draw. it certainly makes me wonder why i research and search when i am ready for a pup when i have gotten some very solid dogs in my own back yard.

debbie


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I do find it odd that someone who thinks it is a GREAT thing to "rescue" a puppy from a rescue org or shelter (rescue fees around here are are as high as $300, probably more) would think it is not a good thing to "buy" a dog for that amount from a BYB, even though that dog will most likely end up in that rescue eventually anyway since most BYBs do not screen the people they sell to.


Lucia nailed this one so I'm just seconding her emotion. There's a HUGE difference in spending money that encourages a byb to continue his or her practices and adopting a dog that needs a home from a rescue group. And as far as comparing rescue fees to how much a byb you are comparing apples and oranges. Your $300 to a byb MAYBE covers a couple shots or dewormings. Your $300 adoption fee typically covers spaying and neutering, all vaccines, deworming, hw test, flea and tick preventative, microchipping, and doesn't begin to cover the additional $ rescues routinely shell out when one of the dogs comes in with heartworms, or parvo, or some other issue. 



> Quote:BYB dogs may generally have more health issues and behavior issues than a PB bought from a top end breeder, but so do rescues whose history is unknown.


I know this is the party line and I'm certainly NOT encouraging anyone to buy from a byb, but I wonder if there are is any empirical evidence whatsoever that this is actually true. As I mentioned the other day on another thread, when someone's rescue dog has a health or temp issue people attribute it to the dog's being a rescue but I see heaps of dogs - here on the board, at the vet clinic, my own - who were purchased from reputable breeders who also develop health and/or temperament problem. I agree with the theory, certainly in the case of BYB versus reputable breeder, but I haven't seen any good evidence that rescues with unknown histories (uknown histories that might be BYBs but are often good breeders as well) are actually statistically any more likely to have problems.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq as far as comparing rescue fees to how much a byb you are comparing apples and oranges. Your $300 to a byb MAYBE covers a couple shots or dewormings. Your $300 adoption fee typically covers spaying and neutering, all vaccines, deworming, hw test, flea and tick preventative, microchipping, and doesn't begin to cover the additional $ rescues routinely shell out when one of the dogs comes in with heartworms, or parvo, or some other issue.


 Good point.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I talked to a guy at the dog park who spent $1,500 on his GSD from a breeder around here, the dog was pretty but not exceptionally so and the poor guy said he had already spent over 3,000 in 9 months on health issues, I think he said joint problems. I felt bad for him and his dog was a bit aggressive as well.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

just because a dog was expensive doesn't mean it is from a Good breeder.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq As I mentioned the other day on another thread, when someone's rescue dog has a health or temp issue people attribute it to the dog's being a rescue but I see heaps of dogs - here on the board, at the vet clinic, my own - who were purchased from reputable breeders who also develop health and/or temperament problem. I agree with the theory, certainly in the case of BYB versus reputable breeder, but I haven't seen any good evidence that rescues with unknown histories (uknown histories that might be BYBs but are often good breeders as well) are actually statistically any more likely to have problems.


I know that some of a dogs behavior/personality comes from breeding and is genetic, but I still lean toward much of it being from their environment. 

I would think that if someone were going to go out and spend thousands of $$s on a dog, they would be training and taking care of it. While it is easier to "throw away" a dog that only a little was paid for. (this would not always be the case, but I am speaking in only very general terms here). 

Also, I would think rescues/BYBs would be more UNhealthy than an expensive PB because they often are on the run before they end up in a shelter/rescue and I dont think a lot of BYBs spend much, if anything, on shots and vet care.

I dont know. Like you said, I have not done any research on this, so I dont know, I am just speculating.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: But just because I don't have a fence, automatically I'm a terrible owner. Eesh, sensitive topic with me.


This has come up quite a few times on this board. I don't think fences are the end all be all either and I don't necessarily require them - depends on the applicant and the dog, but I would venture a guess that nearly every person who has done much rescue has encountered people who didn't have a fence and swore up and down they'd walk their dog, not let the dog offleash ever until and unless it was fully trained etc etc and then turned around and let the dog out to potty off leash WAY before they should have.

Put yourself in the rescue person's shoes for a minute - you have this dog who you deeply care about, who you've nursed to health and wellbeing and treated as your own pet and now you're faced with the challenge of finding someone to give the dog a good home but you don't KNOW these people, all you have to go on are the application, maybe vet references if they've had previous pets, a home visit, and your gut instincts. Is it not at least somewhat understandable that you'd want to err on the side of caution when it comes to the likelihood that the dog will be allowed loose versus safely contained in a (good) fence when it's time to let him/her out to go to the bathroom? 

I certainly wouldn't choose a so-so home with a fence over an excellent one without a fence, and I've certainly lived with dogs and without a fence myself, so I know it CAN be done, but I'm hardly going to fault a group that choses a great applicant with a fence over even a great applicant without one. Also, sometimes lack of a fence is the reason given but there are other things that make the applicant less than ideal for that particular pet as well. 

Again, it's not my rule and I do see groups who take it to what I would consider an extreme, but I understand why those policies exist. It's nearly always based on past bad experiences with people who didn't have fences and didn't do what they said they would.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

You know, Mandalay, I think that guy said something about how his dog was mostly in the back yard as well sooo.... could have to do with some of the aggression issues and possibly the joint issues? I don't know, I only talked to him for a few minutes, was just an example of how even dogs from "reputable" breeders have health issues. 

Also, as I said above, Lulu is from a BYB and she had all shots (up to date for her age, I got the remainder), dewormings, vet check and microchiped when I got her, so not all are like that. She was also raised in the home up to 12 weeks, maybe partly why it was so easy to housebreak her


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

I AM a rescue person and I would never require a fence unless the specific dog in question needed it. A lot of dogs that jump fences or dig are only safe to go to a non fence home where they HAVE to be leash walked. I do understand why some require it I guess, but it's a sore subject with me too. I don't like being lumped with John Q Public dog owner, because I'm not. I also get that they don't necessarily know that.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I definitely get that they don't KNOW me and they only have my word to take. But it does indeed irk me because sometimes nothing you say can change their mind. 
You can do every home check, show them your dogs, give them references, sign a contract that this dog will go back to them if they think you're not suitable but it's not enough. 
While a fence is convenient I don't think it's a necessity. That's just IMO. 

Many times, I've been interested in a dog, asked all the questions, filled out all the paperwork only to have to rug pulled out from under me because someone with a fence came along.
A few months later, I find that same dog returned to the rescue.









Mind you, I've never been rejected by a rescue so it's not like I'm bitter. But sometimes I DO get treated badly when really I just want to help. That's my only "beef" with shelters/rescues. 
Really, I understand that you have day jobs, family, and all these dogs to care for, requests from good and bad owners everyday but that's no excuse to treat me like dirt. I've always treated others how I would want to be treated and maybe I'm too sensitive about that.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I think it's a question of who is the best home for the dog. And the person most likely to be able to answer that question accurately is the foster home not the potential adopter. I have dogs that NEED to have access to a fenced in area. I have dogs that don't. I have dogs that need a really experienced adopter who can work with them through some adjustment problems, I have dogs that don't. I have dogs who need a home without kids, I have dogs that don't. I regularly have applicants who argue with me about my assessment. I don't like upsetting people and I don't want them to feel they were treated like dirt, but ultimately, I know the dog better than they do and I've got to make the best placement decision that I can for that dog.

It's very possible that the dogs who were ultimately adopted to someone else were adopted to that other person not because that other person had a fence but because the other home was simply a better match - or at least _appeared_ to be a better match - than yours was. That's not a personal thing, it's just what the rescue has to go on when they make that decision.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Sage is from a BYB...kinda well i guess if its kinda then it is a BYB.

I had always wanted a GSD, we had a beagle/basset mix growing up though who really was the best dog you could ever ask for (i know everyone says that but mine was the best! haha ) still even with the dog i loved i still wanted a GSD but my mom was scared of them so we never got one. As I got older and out on my own i never had the time college/work and living in a dorm and apts i never really had a stable home for a dog to live in. Finally about a year ago i bought my 1st house and began looking for my long awaited GSD. The only breeders i could find were 3+hrs away and selling their dogs for $1000+ while money wasn't a big issue in stopping me from my dream of my GSD i just wanted a companion not a working line or show dog so I started looking around locally and asking people i saw with GSD's where they got theirs. I looked into local shelters but was told they don't adopt out puppies they stay until they can be fixed and then adopt them out I still kept an eye out and there was only 1 gsd who had a lot of problems and i didn't feel like i could give him the home he needed to readjust. 

Finally after about 8 months (i stopped looking during the winter months as it is a busy time with holidays and such and seeing my brother get a puppy at that time and having problems i decided to wait) Finally i found an ad for gsds and i called about them and drove 2hrs to see them. the mom was a beauty the puppies were adorable but no daddy around. I asked about the dog he said it was his ex wifes she lived 10 mins away and could bring him over but he wasn't the nicest dog (i already knew bad) the puppies were nursing while i was there and i asked how old they were (ad said 8wks) he said they were 5 1/2 weeks old and he wanted to advertise early to get rid of the pups as parvo had been going around (yep i was done and left rather disgusted with him) 

About a week later i found another ad that sounded promising. I called about it and spoke with a guy who said that his mother used to breed dogs for about 15years but she stopped and sold her dogs (she was diagnosed with breast cancer and had just recently past away) he said his mother kept her favorite dog abby and he kept his favorite dog duke just for pets as they had both been retired from breeding already. we talked for a while and i said i wanted to see them (another 2+hr trip)....well the day i was going to see them my mom told me about someone 15mins away who had gsd puppies for sale so i thought i'd look at these 1st and then make the trip out to see the other litter. On the way to this local byb i asked my mom how much they were asking for the pups and she said $350 but only because they aren't registered....oh mom. I had no intentions of buying any but i wasn't going to pass up a chance to play with cute puppies! OMG when we got there! ok i'm not one to judge people but this lady had zero business owning a dog let alone breed any! She lived in one of the poorest parts of town in a house that was falling down looked like a crack addict and these poor dogs...the mom was skinny. I asked about her and the woman said she adopted her a few months ago from a shelter (she knew nothing about the dog) the father wasn't there she said she paid her friend to use his dog to breed but didn't let it see the puppies because it was mean and she didn't want the puppies to learn to be mean (so aside from how stupid that sounds i am beginning to doubt this was even a gsd) the puppies were adorable but they had really fat heads not like any gsd puppies i'd seen before. the yard was covered in poop the puppies covered in fleas bags of ol roy dog food laying around water bowls had green stuff growing on them. she told me how she couldn't afford to get the puppies shots and if i wanted to get 2 puppies or more she'd discount the price. I was ready to punch her and take all her dogs away right there but instead said i had to think about it and would get back to her. we got in the car my mom apologized but said maybe i should get one and give it a nice home...umm no. so we went to the gas station to use the phonebook to call the humane society. They already had an agent on the way.

Finally we got to the other persons house 2hrs away. We talked for a while and then he called the dogs over (they were in the barn as he was cleaning out the pen when we arrived) when he called the dogs mom and dad came trotting over with all 8 puppies trailing behind...it was the cutest thing ever! mom and dad were so friendly dad even asked for a belly rub (something sage loves as well) the puppies were adorable and playful the area was clean i knew i was getting one at that moment. i tried my best to check them over and not just get the cutest one. one was tugging on my shoe laces the whole time i was there...but sage came up to me licked my leg and i picked him up. held him like a new baby pet him and played with a nearby stick then he ran off to wrestle with his litter mates i was looking at some others (keeping him in mind as he was def the cutest) then he came back over to me and layed on my foot. the guy saw me grinning and said so thats the one huh...yes definately was the one. He was younger than i wanted to get one at 6wks 5days but i didn't want to wait a week for him to get shots and then come back (lack of knowledge on my part) I took him to the vet the next day and he was positive for worms i was told that was pretty normal though even with a deworming he was a little under weight at 8.5lbs but said that was due to the worms. I don't regret getting him that day at all or only paying $500. He is now a healthy happy smart friendly outgoing getting bigger by the day puppy that i wouldn't trade for anything.

would i buy again from a BYB? probably not, when i get another gsd i'll have hopes to train for the k9 unit unless i end up not working in k9 then for just another companion dog yeah i won't exclude byb unless they are clueless morons.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I knew enough to get what I wanted when I went looking for a puppy. Strauss was what I could afford, so he was what I bought.

Thus far he is still the best dog I've ever had, and I have as yet to meet another GSD with his character


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

I have a rescue, and a rescue that has passed away, 2 BYB dogs and a reputable breeder pup. 

I would not rule myself out of getting a pup from any avenue in the future. I would be more careful on looking at the parents of the pups and asking about health testing if I get a pup from a BYB again, but I am like many others that what some people call a BYB is not a BYB by my definition. If the "breeder" has house dogs that have health testing and are well cared for then to me it is not a "true" BYB. BYB to me screams of unhealthy animals locked in cages or outside that have no health testing and the father may or may not be known. Also too many dogs for the conditions or room of the house. I think that what some people refer to as a "BYB" is really to me a small hobby breeder. As long as they are health testing, health guaranteeing, and love their indoor family pets than that puts them well above true BYBs.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherd BYB to me screams of unhealthy animals locked in cages or outside that have no health testing and the father may or may not be known. Also too many dogs for the conditions or room of the house.


to me this screams puppy mill


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

I got Cody when I was at the end of 7th grade, I'll be 20 in December, and he is from a BYB. I did research on the breed but there was nothing on telling the difference between good breeders and bad ones back then, at least I can't remember there was. Plus I didn't even know about this site until 04'. My parents had a GSD named Brandy and I thought it would be cool to have one for myself so I looked in the newspaper and one day there was a litter. When I picked up Cody, there were two other puppies, a black female and a blk/tan boy. His mom was also there and she was TALL, his dad was also there who was kept in a crate, said he couldn't settle down. She told us to pick which ever one picked me and so I picked Cody as he was following me. When we brought him home, we noticed worms coming out, uh oh. And this was just the beginning of problems... He has severe allergies, had a $300+ test done on him. He also has arthritis. But, he is the best dog. I love him with my heart and soul and is so loyal and smart. If I was given a chance to not get him because he's from BYB, I wouldn't do it, he's my boy. 
The "breeder" was very rude to me when I called one day, when I was in 8th grade, and asked why she went from GSDs that she said she bred for 20 years straight to some small breed that she said, on this so called breeding site, she'd been breeding only this breed for 20 years. I was confused. I believe it was around that time I found this forum and started reading up on what is a good breeder and what isn't.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I know this thread was old, but I found it and thought it was interesting.

Well anyways, My family and got Molly from a BYB/Oops litter(depending on which you choose.) Well anyways, my 2 previous dogs had just passed away and we were thinking of getting another dog. We didn't know when we would get another dog, but we wanted one. We decided we want a big dog(or rather medium sized) and decided on a German Shepherd, Lab, or Mix(we would get a mutt from a shelter). 

One day my sister tells us that her friend's neighbor had a litter of GSD puppies. My sister said that the owners of the parents didn't expect to have a litter.My sister's friend got male, and there 3 puppies left, 2 boys and girl.One of the males was already spoken for. So we were thinking of getting the last 2 puppies and end up with brother and sister again.lol. But my sister's friend's brother ended up getting the last male. We saw pictures of the parents. We decided to get the last female. The parents owners gave the puppies nicknames and Molly's nickname was Porkchop.

I didn't know how I would react to her, but when my sister brought her home I immediately fell in love with her. We got her health papers(it was a brochure saying she got her shots and stuff.)and we paid $25.00 for her. The price usually shocks people.lol. 

Molly is very healthy(except for the kennel cough she got at dog park, but she is better now.) She is smart, athletic, sweet, loyal, protective, agile, fast, beautiful and I wouldn't trade her for the world. She reminds me of my previous dog, Simba. I love her very much. She is the best $25.00 we ever spent!

My parents, nor I were all in the know of proper breeding an such and knew very little. We just wanted a fun loving, family pet. Plus my parents didn't have that kind of money to sped $1,500 and up on a puppy. We didn't like the puppy stores, my parents had to the see the dog's parents or we would go to a good shelter(spcaLA is the closest one to us.)

Would I buy from a BYB?No. Would I buy from a puppy store?No. I will get a puppy or dog from a rescue/shelter or a responsible, reputable breeder.


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