# 2x2 Weaves - help?



## Stellae (May 13, 2011)

In class, Sprocket has started to weave, at a good speed even, through all 12 poles with gates and wires -- but pops out about 20-30% of the time (always around pole 10), and was totally confused when a gate was removed on Monday. Since I don't have gates and wires, this is not something we can practice out of class, to increase understanding and wean out the gates/wires. I wish this wasn't how they're teaching it 

So, at home, we're going to learn 2x2 weaves on our own, and use class to learn handling and work with distractions. I finally got the DVD, and my poles, had time to watch the first half of the DVD a couple of times... and we've started learning. So far, we've had 4 sessions over 2 days (1 inside with treats, 3 outside with a ball). The bonus for me of the 2x2 weaves is they disassemble to easily fit in the backseat of my station wagon (with my jump, cones, water bowl, gallon of water... ). Most importantly, Sprocket's done reasonable amounts of shaping, so this is hopefully a good method for him. He knows how to think.

We're using one set of poles, set at 2 and 8 on the clock, where 6 is the reward line and 12 is the straight-on entry if the poles were closed. He is consistently going through the poles and driving down the reward line when I send from positions between 10 and 2, even from 15-20 feet away - but I know those are the easy entries.

*Two problems:* (both occuring for send-offs about 6 feet from the poles, I haven't added distance for these entries yet)

*1.* On-side, high on the arc (between 8 and 9), he gets the entry - but drives toward 3 instead of turning to the reward line at 6, to the point where more often than not he completely misses the ball was even thrown. I'm pretty sure I've been facing the poles, which would point my shoulders toward 3 - should I be facing the reward line instead? Is he cuing off my shoulders, instead of my (super consistent) reward line? 

*2.* He's really struggling with the off-side entries. For a 2 o'clock send off, if he's on my RIGHT (putting him ever so slightly closer to 12 on the clock), he gets the entry 90% of the time. If he's on my left, that drops to about 75%. From 3 o'clock, he's only getting the entry about 30% of the time - he tends to go backwards and drive through toward 12, instead of 6. 

At the beginning of our sessions, I do 2-4 easy entries (between 11 and 1), to remind him what we're doing, and define the reward line. Then we ping pong to one side or the other. How far down the arc should I be working? I've been doing from 8 to 3 - should I be doing more like 7 and 5? :thinking: When do I add a second set of poles? I don't want to move to fast, but I'm wary of hanging around this level too long.:help:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow- 60 views and no responses... Stellae- I've been meaning to rewatch that DVD lately, and just haven't found the time. Once again I am relegated to the garage to try to finish my a-frame build so that I can _once again_ park my car in there. I'm building the a-frame movers now.

Anyway- I've found little time to do much on here. I'll try to give the DVD a watch today or tomorrow and try to answer your questions. I have ideas of answers already, but I am pretty confident these questions are covered in the DVD. I'd rather refresh my memory.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Ok, I was rereading this and felt I could answer your questions now. I drew a picture to help figure out what you were talking about. The red arrow is your #1 question, and the blue arrow is your #2 question.

(Image was resized in Photobucket. Please give it time to process the resize, MRL)










For #1- I caught myself giving bad advice here. I was _going_ to say that I'd question how much shadow handling (circle work) you've done. Does your dog understand to read your shoulders? Are you turning your shoulders in when the dog enters the poles? But then I considered Linda Mecklenburg's concept of "non-tuning obstacles" of which the weave poles are most certainly non-turning. What this means is that regardless of what your body does- the dog must always exit the obstacle on a specific lead, and there is nothing you can do to influence that. On the weave poles, your dog will exit on his left lead- always. There is nothing you can do to get your dog to exit in the right lead. At least there is nothing you _should be able to do_. Therefore training the dog to read your shoulders in order to get the entrance is probably pretty bad advice. Not to mention, I _think_ that the DVD tells you that you shouldn't be moving at this stage. I believe the thought here is that your dog must figure out for himself to go through the poles and drive down the reinforcement line without your influence. This helps create independent weaves in the future. So what I _would_ suggest is to move closer! You said you are sending from 12 or 15' -that's pretty far to start! Try moving in to around 5'. Your dog will should be able to see you better as he slightly rounds pole #2 and should pickup on you throwing the reward down the reward line. Definitely move closer. Once he has a history of reinforcement down the reward line, he should get more predictable in heading that direction.

As to question #2, I have a SG trick to help you with this one. Get a piece of PVC pipe (I'm going to guess 3/4" diameter) and a swimming pool noodle. Slide the pool noodle over the pipe and stick the pipe into the ground (or build a very small base using one of these). Note you can also use a small tree, or really any post-like thing sticking out of the ground. Send your dog to it and take off running the other direction. The goal is to get the dog to realize that he must go to 'the thing over there,' go around it, and then chase you away. You're training your dog to have obstacle focus, and also how to tightly wrap things. Once you have this, revisit the 2x2 weave pole. The hope would be that your dog recognizes pole #1 as a 'pivot' to turn around and that this concept helps identify how to get off-side weaves. Come to think about it, I've also seen Moe Strenfel demonstrate in her Foundation Training for Agility DVD this concept of sending to a 'thing' and requiring a tight circle around it. So I guess it's not just a SG thing.


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## Stellae (May 13, 2011)

Whee, long-winded but specific responses to your comments! Thank you thank you!



wildo said:


> Ok, I was rereading this and felt I could answer your questions now. I drew a picture to help figure out what you were talking about. The red arrow is your #1 question, and the blue arrow is your #2 question.


Your picture is perfect! I would have attached one myself, but can't upload from work.



wildo said:


> For #1- I caught myself giving bad advice here. I was _going_ to say that I'd question how much shadow handling (circle work) you've done. Does your dog understand to read your shoulders? Are you turning your shoulders in when the dog enters the poles?


Shadow handling: we've done some but not lots - all that was covered in class is walking in a big arc, teaching dog to follow hand on the outside of the arc (they advocate luring with food, but I fazed out food really quick), then after you've walked, oh, 180 degrees, turn around into the dog and go back from whence you came -- but now the dog is on your other hand. Frankly, this is easy and boring. No, I do not think he knows to read my shoulders - or at least, not consistently. I have not been able to find (free) sources on more to work on for developing handling skills (for the complete novice). I did order Linda Mecklenberg's book, hopefully that will arrive this week! 

But, I digress, as you pointed out that my body position is supposed to be irrelevant.



wildo said:


> Therefore training the dog to read your shoulders in order to get the entrance is probably pretty bad advice. Not to mention, I _think_ that the DVD tells you that you shouldn't be moving at this stage. I believe the thought here is that your dog must figure out for himself to go through the poles and drive down the reinforcement line without your influence. This helps create independent weaves in the future.


Yes, I believe that at the one-pole stage, the handler is supposed to be stationary. I don't think SG introduced handler movement until the 2-pole stage. Facing the poles/entry helps Sprocket figure out what behaviour he's supposed to be doing. It's kind of a cue, I suppose - in as much as when I shape behaviour with any object, I turn my body and focus on the object (as opposed to watching him throw behaviours that I want to comment on). 



wildo said:


> So what I _would_ suggest is to move closer! You said you are sending from 12 or 15' -that's pretty far to start! Try moving in to around 5'. Your dog will should be able to see you better as he slightly rounds pole #2 and should pickup on you throwing the reward down the reward line. Definitely move closer. Once he has a history of reinforcement down the reward line, he should get more predictable in heading that direction.


Actually, I have been working about 5'-6' away, except close to the end of session when I might move up to the easy slice of pie, but send from 12'-15', to give a jackpot to end with. 

Since I posted, we had a couple more sessions. He did spectacularly in one, with an 80-90% success rate from 8-3ish on the clock. Later that day, at another session, he did a few perfect entries. I brought out a second set of poles, carefully counted out 15' between each set, and about 2' offset (a guesstimate, as in the DVD SG only gives the y-distance, not the x-coordinate). The change appears to have broken him.  He eventually figured out the second entry, but then went back and forth between stopping between entries (if I'd just rewarded him there), or only offering the second set (ignoring the first set altogether). Later I went back to just one set of poles, and he was back to doing backwards entries and not following the reward line.  We haven't worked the poles in a few days now. I've been watching (and re-watching) the first few sections of the DVD, and wondering about trying to bring the poles in to only 6' in the y-direction, so they're more obviously in our training 'zone'. 




wildo said:


> As to question #2 (...) The goal is to get the dog to realize that he must go to 'the thing over there,' go around it, and then chase you away. You're training your dog to have obstacle focus, and also how to tightly wrap things. Once you have this, revisit the 2x2 weave pole. The hope would be that your dog recognizes pole #1 as a 'pivot' to turn around and that this concept helps identify how to get off-side weaves.


Definitely going to do this! Thank you!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

If you are putting the second pole set even 12' away- you are WAY too far apart! I'll have to rewatch the DVD to see where you got this idea, but 12' away is at _least_ twice as far as I think you would need. Here are some illustrations from what I think I remember from the DVD.

When you add the second set, the set isn't parallel to the first set. You can see I've illustrated it. This allows the dog to more easily see the entrance as they exit the first set. As the behavior grows, you can "close" the second set, rotating it until it is parallel to the first set.









Once you have consistency with the sets parallel to each other, then you can start bringing the poles inline with each other:









Again- I'll have to watch the DVD again to see where you got 12-15' from, but in my opinion that is WAY too far. I only have two videos of Pimg's weaving. You may or may not learn something from them. I'll note that both of these videos were taken before I had purchased the DVD. In fact, some of the info above may have actually come from my instructor rather than SG.











Oh- I guess I have three videos. But in this one, holy cow, I waste so much time screwing around with trying to get her to out. Not to mention I look ridiculous without facial hair.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> Wow- 60 views and no responses... Stellae- I've been meaning to rewatch that DVD lately, and just haven't found the time.


HEY, I never trained 2 X 2's so can't really help! Sent you a PM Wildo though, cause I knew you liked the method! 

:wild: :wub: :wild: :wub: :wild:


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## Stellae (May 13, 2011)

wildo said:


> If you are putting the second pole set even 12' away- you are WAY too far apart! I'll have to rewatch the DVD to see where you got this idea, but 12' away is at _least_ twice as far as I think you would need. Here are some illustrations from what I think I remember from the DVD.


That's what I thought too - but in the DVD, SG clearly says (and shows a diagram on-screen with the dimension) that the second set should be 15' apart. She says if she were training a smaller dog, she would start at 9' or 12'. Even still, if you look at what the distance actually is... it LOOKS like it can't be 12' apart (though that could just be camera angle issues).



wildo said:


> When you add the second set, the set isn't parallel to the first set. You can see I've illustrated it. This allows the dog to more easily see the entrance as they exit the first set. As the behavior grows, you can "close" the second set, rotating it until it is parallel to the first set.
> 
> 
> Once you have consistency with the sets parallel to each other, then you can start bringing the poles inline with each other


That makes COMPLETE sense. I am 90% sure in the DVD she doesn't say if the poles should be parallel, but I believe that IS what she demonstrates. On the other hand, we don't all have border collies, and she does talk later on about opening up sets of poles when they're doing 6-12 at a time to help prevent them popping out early. So opening the second set seems like a reasonable step.

By the way, I'm _loving_ your diagrams (I'm a super visual thinker). I probably should not have posted this from work, just waited until I got home so I could include pics, but you have it all down. 



wildo said:


> Again- I'll have to watch the DVD again to see where you got 12-15' from, but in my opinion that is WAY too far. I only have two videos of Pimg's weaving. You may or may not learn something from them. I'll note that both of these videos were taken before I had purchased the DVD. In fact, some of the info above may have actually come from my instructor rather than SG.


Yes, I had seen the second two videos, but not the first (now I understand your recommendation to not bother with PVC bases though). Thank you for all the help. I'm hoping to manage to record tonight's session and post a video. We'll see how that goes though...




MaggieRoseLee said:


> HEY, I never trained 2 X 2's so can't really help! Sent you a PM Wildo though, cause I knew you liked the method!
> 
> :wild: :wub: :wild: :wub: :wild:


_I_ knew you don't train 2x2s - and if I had access to a channel, I might've been begging for help on that :tongue: Thanks for poking Willy though


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