# Pulling back vs. torquing the sleeve.



## Castlemaid

I didn't want to hijack another thread where this came up, but would love to have some input on people's views on a dog pulling back (humping back) the sleeve, and vs. torquing the sleeve. I'm not talking about shaking the sleeve when dog is in prey drive, though from some training videos I have seen, sometimes the shaking or torquing can be close and difficult to differentiate (for me, anyways). 

So! I've always been told that pulling back (humping), shows power, confidence, clear-headedness. It shows that the dog feels confident about being able to deal with the threat at hand, and is not intimidated or trying to avoid the head-on, frontal presence of the decoy, while torquing can be seen as the dog trying to avoid the front of the decoy and finding a safer place to the side. At the same time, I see RCMP dogs doing hidden-sleeve work, and torquing is encouraged as it will disable and bring down a perp quicker than the pulling back. (We had a guest trainer doing a seminar once, and he found the 'humping back' term offensive, and insisted that we say 'pulling back'). 

I'd love to have a discussion on what humping back and/or torquing shows in the dog, and why humping back seems to be preferred (or I get the feeling from the trainers that I have worked with that humping back is preferred.) Not clear myself if humping back is preferred for training purposes, or for the maximum points in trial purposes.


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## gagsd

Do you mean torquing, or pulling the sleeve behind the helper?


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## FG167

I know of some training helpers that like to have the dog torque to the side (they stick the dog to get there and then they slip the sleeve when there is strong fight to the side). The opinion is that the dog is difficult to lock-up with, prolonging the fight with the helper and therefore looking more powerful. 

The problem then lies that if the helper cannot adequately lock up, as in the front, the dog has a problem to out. I am a novice handler but I have seen this replicated in 6 or 8 dogs - same training styles and the dogs show loads of fight, are difficult to get in front, difficult to lock up and either refuse to out or are slow. Yeah, it looks impressive and the dogs look powerful - but for sport/points, it is a disaster. With a really large dog you could potentially have some troubles stopping the fight at all I suppose. Since I am in it for sport, I would prefer my dog hump/pull/fight backwards but in front of the helper.

Now for "real life" situations, I would think that the side torque-ing would cause a serious hurting.


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## Castlemaid

gagsd said:


> Do you mean torquing, or pulling the sleeve behind the helper?


I mean torquing - pulling the sleeve behind the helper to me is avoidance. When some dogs torque the sleeve, they do often move over to the side away from the center position, but are still in front of the helper. 

(This is where things get tricky - everyone has a different picture in mind for the same term).


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## gagsd

My dog "torques".... and "humps." Couldn't resist

But by torqueing, I mean that he hits the sleeve very hard and very fast, and immediately twists, with his whole body, As if trying to remove the helper's arm. I get a little picture of what it feels like playing tug with him and I worry about my helper's health. 
I remember one time several months ago that he was getting a lot of "heat" from the helper, and he pulled the sleeve around behind the helper. I saw it as a way to get out of a stressful situation.


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## lhczth

Pulling behind and what I mean by torquing or hitting back are not the same thing. I have trained with the same people Falon is talking about and I understand the principle of why they teach what they do. It can create some very strong dogs on the escape bite and dogs that are difficult to drive and to lock up, but it can also create other issues as she mentions and is teaching the dog to remove itself from the fight. There was a dog about 10 years ago that I remember people oooing and ahhing over because he looked so strong during the drives. I knew this dog. He was stick shy. They had taught him to pull back behind the helper during the drives which made him very hard to drive and also to apply the stick hits. 

The humping/pulling away from the helper is also a way of teaching the dog to avoid the pressure. The dog may be in front, but he is still attempting to pull himself away from the pressure of a direct fight with the helper (and, of course, I am generalizing since not ALL dogs are doing this for those reasons). There are dogs that slam into the sleeve and then pull back with much power, but you can see they are doing this not because they are so strong, but because they do not want to be that close to the helper. 

A dog that is torquing the sleeve and hitting back is not in avoidance and not trying to avoid pressure. He is attempting to control and overpower the helper. These dogs generally stay in front and fight. The best example I can think of to show is Arek Stoffelblick. At the end of the routine when the helper has locked up the last time after the courage test (this is the old SchH test) shows his fight the best. 

Go to http://www.vombanholz.be/ Click on Movie Archives then on Hall of Fame then scroll down to Arek Stoffelblick (there are a lot of great videos on this site). The video quality isn't very good, but you can get the idea.


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## gagsd

Lisa, that was your 11,000th post!!!!


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## lhczth

I have been a member for a very long time and sometimes I do actually get chatty.


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## Castlemaid

Wow on that video! Now there's a dog that exudes power in every move and every bark! Thank you so much for that example, it really helped to see what you mean by torquing - I was thinking more in terms of trashing whenever I saw that term. You can see that the dog is bringing the power and the fight to the sleeve, to the helper, not trying to get the sleeve away from the helper, and never tries to move away from the frontal position. 

I'm still curious to know or hear opinions as to where the preference for humping back came from.


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## crackem

I don't think it tells much of anything by itself.


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## Lynn_P

I am very interested in this conversation.. because I have both.. a dog that torques the sleeve and one that goes behind the helper after the bite... I know the dog that torques the sleeve is doing this not because of avoidance.. the dog that goes behind the helper... he's learned this behavior because the helpers in the past have slipped the sleeve because of the uncomfortable position, and the dog sees it as "he won".


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## t.lesniak

Everyone has different opinions on what fighting and avoidance look like. Very few novice handlers even know what they are really looking at too.
For me personally..................... I like my dog fighting out of the pocket. I want the dog to be hard (very hard) for the Helper to lock up. I am not in SchH for the points, but I train my dog to out, even if it is off the Helper's hip. Out means Out. Folks that are mainly in SchH for sport/points will more often train in prey, want a calm grip, and little fight. 
I want my dog balanced in defense, to have a calm grip, and constantly be fighting (pulling, torguing, whatever you want to call it) out of the pocket.


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## Northern GSDs

Castlemaid said:


> W
> 
> I'm still curious to know or hear opinions as to where the preference for humping back came from.


Lucia, the way it was explained to me was that this is to aid in helping with building and setting the grip.



> Go to http://www.vombanholz.be/ Click on Movie Archives then on Hall of Fame then scroll down to Arek Stoffelblick (there are a lot of great videos on this site). The video quality isn't very good, but you can get the idea.


I like many things about this dog's protection routine. However, that said, what I also find interesting to see is that, to me, the dog actually looks to move in and then back here and there from the helper after the out rather than staying close in to the helper. Perhaps what looks like a bit of conflict (the desire to re-attack but maybe holding himself back from doing so or ??). Either way, looks like lots of nice intensity in his fight drive when he is on the helper.


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## Mrs.K

> Folks that are mainly in SchH for sport/points will more often train in prey, want a calm grip, and little fight.


Well yeah... barely anyone can handle what you are describing, they all want it but there are very few people that can actually handle it.


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## Catu

Actually, your post in the other thread kind of surprised me and without this thread I'd have probably asked, because I've been taught the opposite: that humping is not that good because it often shows avoidance and that you want a dog that goes INTO the fight, instead of away from it. I don't like torquing as going behind the helper, but I like a good shacking that leaves a sore shoulder on the helper.


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## onyx'girl

Poor helpers, if it isn't torquing, it is shacking, or humping, or being bitten because the dog is dirty! No wonder there aren't enough of them in this world!


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## Northern GSDs

Just found some of my old notes from a seminar from years ago.

Another reason aside from the grip building that was provided for the pulling back was so as to encourage the dog to try to "bring the helper down", hence why the "win" of the sleeve would only occur once it was in a full pull back extension so as to encourgae the pulling back motion.

Mind you, my notes are a bunch of little tidbits written in a frenzied haphazard manner  LOL.

Catu, I am in the same thought pattern in many ways in regards to liking to see a dog push into the helper for the fight. Though this, as many have already mentioned, can lead to many other difficulities when it comes to the lock up/out etc.

I often have wondered if spending so much time in training in trying to deter a dog from its' natural desires/tendencies (eg for the dog that likes to torque, instead try to get it do something else) actually leads to a poorer bite and/or more conflict, which then leads to other challening training issues? If the fight drive is there and very active, is it "ok" to do with what is innate in the dog rather than trying to fight it? I don't know but sometimes I think we maybe try so hard to extinguish certain innate behaviours that we maybe just create worse ones?

There are some dogs out there that would be considered to be strong dogs that do try to bring the helper down from the looks of it by pulling the arm back behind the helper. I think (MHO only) that one needs to look at the whole picture of the dog and not just one element to determine if the behaviour is really avoidance or is it the dog's natural fight (bring the helper to the ground etc)? Yes? No?

Good topic! And interesting to hear everyone's thoughts and experiences on this!


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## Northern GSDs

onyx'girl said:


> Poor helpers, if it isn't torquing, it is shacking, or humping, or being bitten because the dog is dirty! No wonder there aren't enough of them in this world!


LOL No kidding!


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> Poor helpers, if it isn't torquing, it is shacking, or humping, or being bitten because the dog is dirty! No wonder there aren't enough of them in this world!


Would be nice if there were official definitions we can use as reference whith these things... ask three different people and you'll get three different answers. 

Now, I know that Nala is torquing to Lisas standard. 

Sheesh, funny when you find out what a word means but you don't really have a translation for it so I wouldn't even know how to call it in German. Guess I'm going to get bashed yet again for using yet another english word...LOL


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## onyx'girl

Karlo pushes into the helper wearing the sleeve, he doesn't shack, hump or torque. I've never heard of "shacking"~maybe that was supposed to be shaking/thrashing? Karlo doesn't do that either
There is a Mal that we train with that will twist the sleeve behind the back every chance he gets, and it is his way of controlling the helper for sure, he isn't avoiding/lacking confidence whatsoever. If the helper is not wise to his way, he usually gets twisted big time.


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## Catu

Northern GSDs said:


> Catu, I am in the same thought pattern in many ways in regards to liking to see a dog push into the helper for the fight. Though this, as many have already mentioned, can lead to many other difficulities when it comes to the lock up/out etc.


Absolutely!. I'd say Akela's tendency is to go into the helper, but too much of it could lead to a bad habit of rebiting. Last session my helper suggested using the table to encourage more pulling, but I'll post the video in another thread not to hijack this one.



onyx'girl said:


> I've never heard of "shacking"~maybe that was supposed to be shaking/thrashing?


Yeah! it was meant to be "to shake" but the spell check let it through, so I tought it was ok. Now I Googled "shacking" it gives a completely new sense to the phrase... :crazy:


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## elisabeth_00117

I know I am a newbie but... I have one of each.. kinda.

With Stark, it is most definitely a nerve issue. He is totally uncomfortable (especially with a new decoy) in front and will always position himself to the side so he doesn't have to fight from the front. He does tend to torque quite a bit and is also a bit chewy at times.

With Zefra though, she hits HARD. Once she hits the sleeve she will try to "hump back" with it once or twice and then will PUSH it into the helper. She likes to be RIGHT in their face. She LIVES for the fight. You can tell with her that the sleeve is just a necessary means to "get close to that helper". I know with her there is no confidence issues at all, unless having too much is an issue.. lol. She is there from the minute she enters the field. 

I almost wonder with her if the "hump back" that she does once or twice when she first hits helps her reposition (she NEVER has re-bit on the sleeve or tug!) or she is viewing it as a game with him.. almost teasing the helper? Encouraging the fight between the two of them? Trying to show her power? Not really sure. Definitely going to bring this up with our helper though. Great topic! Very interesting.

I do have a few photo's which *I think* describes what you mean.... 


Stark - not the greatest photo's to demonstrate this, but he always brings the helper to the side.. this particular helper doesn't put any pressure on Stark because we know this is a nerve issue and training is for fun with him.










http://s840.photobucket.com/albums/zz321/Stark_009/schutzhund/?action=edit&current=hhhhh.jpg


























 

Zefra - again, not the best photo's but you can see how she stares at the helper and is trying to engage with him.


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## elisabeth_00117

Castlemaid said:


> *I mean torquing - pulling the sleeve behind the helper to me is avoidance.* When some dogs torque the sleeve, they do often move over to the side away from the center position, but are still in front of the helper.
> 
> (This is where things get tricky - everyone has a different picture in mind for the same term).


I believe this to be true as well. At least from my experience.


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## Liesje

Nikon works protection mainly out of defense which comes with its challenges but ironically fight has never been one of them, thank goodness. My understanding is that a "defense dog" should be less likely to want to stay in there and fight but I think the difference is that Nikon possesses a raw aggression plus a protectiveness of me that keeps him there wanting to fight even with the primary drive being defense and without the desire to possess the object. On that level, defense vs. prey no longer matters and he has some nasty aggression that will rear its head if the helper knows what buttons to push. A few times recently I took him to a good helper that's been working dogs as long as SchH has been in the USA b/c I was worried about Nikon being over-worked in defense and whether he had some nerve issues but this helper told me he just sees raw aggression and a dog that's not a sport dog, he even told me half-jokingly that some old school judge might smile and give a point or two back for some of the behaviors that are now see as quirks. Overall more up close and personal he is with the helper the better he's biting and harder he's fighting. We don't do this that often but sometimes the helper messes with him so he can get some fighting in, like he will push the dog into a fence or start pushing blinds over with the dog on the sleeve. Nikon doesn't really torque or hump back he just sort of bears down on the sleeve and pushes back into the helper if that makes sense. Another way to get him really fighting like that is if the helper gets in my space with the dog on the sleeve, like he'll push the dog over into me and start shoving at me with the dog on the sleeve and that pisses Nikon off big time, he's very protective of me naturally. For some dogs these wrestling matches and getting pushed around by a helper are too much but for him to have the chance to really fight and win is a big confidence boost for him, sometimes just what he needs every dozen rounds or so to get him back to work.

Pan....still young, just starting to develop the fight. I've never really thought about this much I guess, always seen this as one aspect of the dog's style and how he works, genetically.


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## Jason L

Torquing is a style and can be taught. Being melodramatically feisty on the sleeve is also a style and can be taught. It does make the dogs look like a handful (because they are difficult to lock up) but at the day it really doesn't tell you much about dogs.


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## Mrs.K

Originally Posted by *Castlemaid*  
_



*I mean torquing - pulling the sleeve behind the helper to me is avoidance.* When some dogs torque the sleeve, they do often move over to the side away from the center position, but are still in front of the helper. 

(This is where things get tricky - everyone has a different picture in mind for the same term).

Click to expand...

Like I said, maybe, at least for this forum, we should agree to one definition so we know what each other is talking about? 

Torquing to Castlemaids standard means avoidance. To Lisas Standard it's a good thing... so let's just agree to something and then go from there. If we don't have a common ground or basis there is really no sense in discussing it since everybody else is talking about something entirely different and god forbid somebody coming on this forum reading "this or that dog torques" and in the next sense you read "yeah but torquing is avoidance"... there ya have it. 
_


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## lhczth

Jason L said:


> Torquing is a style and can be taught. Being melodramatically feisty on the sleeve is also a style and can be taught. It does make the dogs look like a handful (because they are difficult to lock up) but at the day it really doesn't tell you much about dogs.


Torquing/hitting back in a dog the way I mean it is part of fight drive and can be encouraged through training (or discouraged), but can not be taught to a dog that does not have it naturally. It tells me a lot about a dog.  When you watch a dog like Arek Stoffelblick you see a dog with fight drive. That was not taught and it was not just a style. That was the dog.


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## Castlemaid

Interesting - I see what both Jason and Lisa are saying about the style of fight. I think it comes down to what the dog is rewarded for. He learns what actions gets him to win - so in a way, it is taught, but if the dog does not have it in him to push and torque, not sure how it would be taught at all.


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## Jason L

By torquing I meant the dog staying out of pocket, fighting from the side, trying to spin the helper around (torquing the helper I suppose), etc. etc. 

Now torquing, as Lisa defines it (and Catu's dog shows in the video she just posted in the other thread), is different and does say something about the dog.


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## Liesje

I think what Jason is describing in my mind I've called "corkscrewing", the dog twists to the side and back of the helper. Like if the helper is running on the escape, the dog is constantly twisting back and down in that direction. I'm like a newborn compared to some of you guys but the dogs I know that do this started doing it on their own and were inadvertently encouraged to keep doing it b/c it makes it hard for the helper to keep the dog out front and lock up. Some of them are really object oriented dogs so perhaps in their minds they are pulling the sleeve off and that's their win? Most of them are strong dogs and do have a lot of fight in them but b/c they work so high in prey drive with that focus on the object, this is what comes through,the corkscrewing stuff rather than the real fight.


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## Vandal

Yes, mostly it is a "let me have that thing and get the heck out of here" behavior. I think many would benefit if they could own or work a dog who genetically has it all going on. Then the idea about "teaching" behaviors vs re-enforcing what is naturally in the dog, might start to go away. Right now, SchH seems to be more about creating an image for the ignorant masses to like vs understanding the dogs and putting who they really are, on display.

There are not many dogs with real fight drive anymore and most people have never experienced a dog like that. If they have one, they are told the behaviors of that dog are not desirable because the grip might slip. I will tell you that dogs who really fight and have that genetic fight drive and balance, never slip that grip and you cannot train that behavior of fighting away or morph it into pulling. They will choose what comes naturally.


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## Castlemaid

> Right now, SchH seems to be more about creating an image for the ignorant masses to like vs understanding the dogs and putting who they really are, on display


This is what is so confusing to me - so hard to understand what one is seeing and why, and what parts are for show and what parts are for bringing out what is in the dog.


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## Vandal

One other comment. You have to also consider how much power is created by avoidance behavior. Try putting a cat in a bath tub or walking a horse into something that scares him. Oh yeah, there is a LOT of strength in it but the behaviors associated with it are the problem.

This is why you have to watch everything the dog does to really get an idea of who he is. The barking and guarding after the drives says quite a bit about the dog. Doesn't matter if he is a rocket, if he barks like a puppy once he is told to let go. One reason I have hated the silent guard because so much about the dog can be hidden. 

Many dogs, ( especially nowadays), bite well out of a bit of avoidance or to get some relief of stress. You can see the real dog in how he "hits back" with his bark, not just in how he does it on the bite.


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## gagsd

vandal said:


> ... You have to also consider how much power is created by avoidance behavior. Try putting a cat in a bath tub or walking a horse into something that scares him. Oh yeah, there is a lot of strength in it but the behaviors associated with it are the problem.


:d:d:d


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> I think what Jason is describing in my mind I've called "corkscrewing", the dog twists to the side and back of the helper. Like if the helper is running on the escape, the dog is constantly twisting back and down in that direction. I'm like a newborn compared to some of you guys but the dogs I know that do this started doing it on their own and were inadvertently encouraged to keep doing it b/c it makes it hard for the helper to keep the dog out front and lock up. Some of them are really object oriented dogs so perhaps in their minds they are pulling the sleeve off and that's their win? Most of them are strong dogs and do have a lot of fight in them but b/c they work so high in prey drive with that focus on the object, this is what comes through,the corkscrewing stuff rather than the real fight.


One of mine is that way and I'd like to keep it that way and I really don't care what anyone says or thinks about that since we don't actively do Schutzhund and only dabble in it every now and then. It's a treat and she is very very object oriented and for the sake of SAR I'll keep it that way. That way I can demonstrate: "Look, she's going after the sleeve, it's the object, not the person." since I always have to explain myself, why in the world I let a SAR dog bite into a Sleeve. They don't see that she's object oriented, all a stranger sees is that she is "biting the helper". 
But anytime you throw the sleeve in one direction, have the helper run in the other and the dog goes for the sleeve, you can see the light bulb going on, and they are like "Hey, it's no different than playing tug of war or with a ball..."


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## gagsd

My dog who (I think) has a lot of Fight drive,is very serious, and has a tendency to try ripping the helper's arm off and not so sleeve oriented..... is the one dog I own that I trust most around children and other people.


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## Mrs.K

gagsd said:


> My dog who (I think) has a lot of Fight drive,is very serious, and has a tendency to try ripping the helper's arm off and not so sleeve oriented..... is the one dog I own that I trust most around children and other people.


Yeah, but you can't reason with people that don't have common sense and just say "Oh no, it's a bite trained dog, it can't do SAR." 
Now the team doesn't have an issue with that but we all know how it can be. I trust all of mine around kids. 

Anyhow, it's getting off topic, sorry for that


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## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> One of mine is that way and I'd like to keep it that way and I really don't care what anyone says or thinks about that since we don't actively do Schutzhund and only dabble in it every now and then. It's a treat and she is very very object oriented and for the sake of SAR I'll keep it that way.


I think that's fair enough, she is a SAR dog and it's not like you're breeding her as a top SchH dog or street dog for cops. I'm the same way, just different sports. I take SchH and SDA seriously (at least I think I do) but dabble in agility, so real agility buffs probably blow steam when they see me train and handle my dogs, but for us agility is for fun, exercise, and some lower level trials. I don't nit-pick my contacts or spend months working different crosses. Kenya hates rear-crosses so instead of training them I ran any course without them even if it cost me a few seconds of time and was more work for me as a handler. Nikon doesn't understand being handled on my right b/c of all his obedience so I run all his courses with him on my left which also is way more work for me but so what. He knows the obstacles and got several blue ribbons in trial. Agility people will think I'm crazy always running a dog on my left but there are only so many hours in the day and so much money I'm willing to spend on training dogs!


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## lhczth

Castlemaid said:


> Interesting - I see what both Jason and Lisa are saying about the style of fight. I think it comes down to what the dog is rewarded for. He learns what actions gets him to win - so in a way, it is taught, but if the dog does not have it in him to push and torque, not sure how it would be taught at all.


The behavior is not so much rewarded as reinforced. The dog offers the behavior naturally and the helper reinforces that behavior through his, the helper's, actions. It isn't actually taught. 


I would not judge poorly a dog that pulls behind when the helper is trying to lock up based strictly on that behavior. I would judge the dog poorly if it also tended to pull out of the pocket or attempted to pull out of the pocket during the drives and the dog tended to avoid being frontal on the helper during the H&B and the guard work.


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## lhczth

LOL I should have read more since I see Anne finally posted and said what I was also trying to say.


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## Castlemaid

What do you guys mean when you say "pulling out of pocket". (I'm sorta guessing your intent, but just want to check that we are talking about the same thing).


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## lhczth

When a dog is driven correctly the helper puts the dog "in the pocket", a place of pressure. A dog pulling out of the pocket would be a dog attempting to remove itself from this pressure. That is the best way I can think of to describe it. Easier to show. 

Off to Cabala's for some more Under Armor so I can stand training in this wet cold weather.


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## Samba

I have tried to get and reinforce some hitting back from the dogs. It is not very easy if it does not come naturally.

Not terribly experienced here, but I do get to see interesting things with my current male. I did not do puppy bitework with him. He does not get regular work. So I think in some ways I am able to see what comes naturally if he presented with appropriate helper work. He torqued the sleeve off right away. I think he thought he actually got part of the guy! I was reminded of the Monty Python Black Knight.

Hogan: Look you stupid so and so. You've got no arm left!
Helper: Yes I have.
Hogan: *Look*!
Helper: It's just a flesh wound.


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## Whiskey Six

Krieg is only 10 months old. So far we put zero pressure on him. So avoidance is not an issue. When he hits the sleeve he hits full hard and calm. He then digs in his back feet and pulls down and back. His front feet hang free. All his weight and force is being used to pull down the helper. Today I watched as he did this. The helper and trainer were very excited to see him do that naturally. This is genetics not training. He just does it this way. I assume this is a good thing.


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## onyx'girl

I'm going to put this video up, I think this is torque, not avoidance. Though there was very little pressure in this video to prove my point. 
My helper doesn't do long bites with my dog hardly ever/ but they do like to spar up close and personal. 
Sorry for the quality, I didn't edit it.


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## Packen

What I see is the dog favoring sleeve side deeply, yet got rewarded with a bite!


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## onyx'girl

You see no torque?(that is the thread topic) I am trying to understand the torque concept, because I think it is a subtle move.
I agree, he knows where the stick is. And yes there was really no challenge/fight by the helper in this short video clip. The helper has me leash him, because he knows if hes free, and the sleeve is slipped it isn't a safe environment from the helpers standpoint. We are still working on our control/OB during protection. I don't use electric.


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## Zahnburg

Samba said:


> Hogan: Look you stupid so and so. You've got no arm left!
> Helper: Yes I have.
> Hogan: *Look*!
> Helper: It's just a flesh wound.


LOL. 

If your dog would bark "Nee" then your helper would have no chance at all.


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## mareg

I would say you have to read each dog individually as to what they are doing or how they are working. some dogs may not be comfortable in the "pocket" and some may just be trying to off balance the helper. 

You would have to know what state of mind or drive the dog was in when it took the bite, did it change drives on the sleeve and where was it at in its head at the time of the out to determine why it may go sleeve side for the guard. If you taught a proper hold and bark initially then the dog will be less likely to move off to the side after the out. Much of that goes to trainings.

Torguing or fighting while being driven.....well that has alot to do with how the helper who is driving the dog and doesnt really mean a dog has more or less fight drive. A 25 year old 6ft 3in 220lb athelete in a run drive on a 85lb dog is going to offer much less of a chance for a dog to show fight or torqing than a 50 year old 5ft 7in 200 lb helper that is trying to do a skip drive with the same dog. Nothing against the old helper.....we all get old!

onyx, I think your dog was only in about 50% of its drive level. Would love to someone really pump him up and see what he does. I bet he barks fabulous in the right frame of mind! Not, saying your helper cant do this...I realize he was working on something specific.


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## G-burg

Castlemaid said:


> I didn't want to hijack another thread where this came up, *but would love to have some input on people's views on a dog pulling back the sleeve vs. torquing the sleeve. I'm not talking about shaking the sleeve when dog is in prey drive, though from some training videos I have seen, sometimes the shaking or torquing can be close and difficult to differentiate* (for me, anyways).
> 
> So! I've always been told that pulling back (humping), shows power, confidence, clear-headedness. It shows that the dog feels confident about being able to deal with the threat at hand, and is not intimidated or trying to avoid the head-on, frontal presence of the decoy, while torquing can be seen as the dog trying to avoid the front of the decoy and finding a safer place to the side. At the same time, I see RCMP dogs doing hidden-sleeve work, and torquing is encouraged as it will disable and bring down a perp quicker than the pulling back. (We had a guest trainer doing a seminar once, and he found the 'humping back' term offensive, and insisted that we say 'pulling back').
> 
> I'd love to have a discussion on what humping back and/or torquing shows in the dog, and why humping back seems to be preferred (or I get the feeling from the trainers that I have worked with that humping back is preferred.) Not clear myself if humping back is preferred for training purposes, or for the maximum points in trial purposes.



*I want to revisit this old thread because maybe some peoples views have changed... or their training has changed.. 
*
So what is the purpose in teaching a dog to pull back when it gets the grip.. And I'm not talking about teaching the dog to pull behind the helper.. (that's another discussion). More on the lines of young dogs say... They get the grip and the helper does the pull back, pull back, pull back and then he'll pull them forward and the progression starts again, eventually letting the dog win when it's pulling back..

And what happens when you have a dog who genetically is more inclined to want to torque the sleeve a couple of times when he gets the grip.. Do you go against the dogs natural instinct? And teach it to pull back?


----------



## mycobraracr

Depending on the dog, I'll let them pull back. For example a young dog to build confidence can pull me back and even to the ground. Drag me around. That way it empowers them. Makes them feel like they have full control over me. 

"Torquing", I try to eliminate as soon as possible. It's just a wast of energy. In sport, it can be viewed as bad nerve or hectic behavior. In real life situations it can rip and tear skin causing more blood that I would have to deal with. Blood is slippery and carries potential diseases. It's just something I don't want all over the place. 

I prefer a dog who pushes into the bite. IMO it shows confidence. Shows the dog wants to be there. Plus I do mostly suit work, so it helps the grip. 

These are real short answers and before my first cup of coffee I might add. SO I hope they make sense.


----------



## G-burg

> "Torquing", I try to eliminate as soon as possible. It's just a wast of energy. In sport, it can be viewed as bad nerve or hectic behavior.


Thanks for taking the time to respond!!!

The torquing I'm talking about is where the dog will twist his head one or two times.. These dogs are always calm when they do it and grips are always full? Not like the thrashing the Mals or Pits do..


----------



## mycobraracr

G-burg said:


> Thanks for taking the time to respond!!!
> 
> The torquing I'm talking about is where the dog will twist his head one or two times.. These dogs are always calm when they do it and grips are always full? Not like the thrashing the Mals or Pits do..


Ahh ok, do you have any video that you'd be willing to share perhaps? Then we can look at the exact example.


----------



## mycobraracr

G-burg said:


> *I want to revisit this old thread because maybe some peoples views have changed... or their training has changed..
> *
> So what is the purpose in teaching a dog to pull back when it gets the grip.. And I'm not talking about teaching the dog to pull behind the helper.. (that's another discussion). More on the lines of young dogs say... They get the grip and the helper does the pull back, pull back, pull back and then he'll pull them forward and the progression starts again, eventually letting the dog win when it's pulling back..
> 
> And what happens when you have a dog who genetically is more inclined to want to torque the sleeve a couple of times when he gets the grip.. Do you go against the dogs natural instinct? And teach it to pull back?



I'm going to take one more stab at this since I'm a little bit more coherent now lol. 

Teaching or encouraging the dog to pull, is to build confidence as I said earlier as well as keep the dog fighting on the bite. No one wants to see a limp noodle just going with the program. 

I'm not sure we are on the same page with the torquing. So I don't really want to go into that yet. Ideally "I" want to see a dog pushing the fight and controlling the helper/decoy. Some dogs can do this by pushing, some can do this by pulling and some have completely bent me in half.


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## lhczth

Find a video of Arek Stoffelblick. His fighting behavior was to either torgue the sleeve or shove it into the helper. This can really be seen after the drives/stick hits. A dog who is torguing is fighting and trying to control and defeat the opponent. It is not the hectic thrashing behavior that you can see in some of the videos of Yoschy or often seen in Mals. 

I don't like the pulling away from the helper behavior except in the escape. It could be thought of like a wolf pulling down its prey I guess, but it is also encouraging avoidance when done in front. The dog is learning that avoiding the pressure of the man is how it wins instead of teaching the dog how to counter the pressure by fighting the man to win. It is also often used to help grip since a dog pulling isn't as likely to chew. 

My opinion hasn't changed.


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## G-burg

Yes, that's what I'm talking about on the torquing.. 

It seems lately that a lot of helpers want to discourage that behavior and only wanting the dog to pull..



> Teaching or encouraging the dog to pull, is to build confidence as I said earlier as well as keep the dog fighting on the bite.


Yes, that's what I understand too..


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

My Mal will torque the sleeve or shake his head while on the grip. However, grips always remain full and hard and its is clear that this is a fighting behavior. As such, there was never a need to change it.

Have trial video but its long.


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## Blitzkrieg1

When teaching escapes I will use the lash liberally on the dogs side/flank while the dog is on the grip to encourage the dog to try and get the sleeve behind and off me. I will also reward any kind of response including a head shake or the dog digging into the ground to encourage fighting behaviors instead of just going along for the ride.


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## mycobraracr

G-burg said:


> Yes, that's what I'm talking about on the torquing..
> 
> It seems lately that a lot of helpers want to discourage that behavior and only wanting the dog to pull..
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's what I understand too..



Okay, what we are calling torquing, I don't mind seeing, but would rather see it channeled into a dog driving into the helper and dominating them that way. I'm personally not a fan of pulling except in a flee situation like the escape bite. Even then, once the helper locks up I want to see the dog driving in again.


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## onyx'girl

mycobraracr said:


> Okay, what we are calling torquing, I don't mind seeing, but would rather see it channeled into a dog driving into the helper and dominating them that way. I'm personally not a fan of pulling except in a flee situation like the escape bite. Even then, once the helper locks up I want to see the dog driving in again.


I agree, but I think many handlers are all about outing the dog as soon as the sleeve is still, because outing is one thing many dogs won't do when trialing. Auto outs are happening more and more(which I hate to see!). 
Dogs aren't allowed to push in during trial when the helper locks up, so nobody allows it during training. 
We don't always train for points, we let the dogs have some fun, and that is when you see more of the dog too. Sad that so many only train for trial and not allow the dogs to show actual fight drive(if they even have it)


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## mycobraracr

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, but I think many handlers are all about outing the dog as soon as the sleeve is still, because outing is one thing many dogs won't do when trialing. Auto outs are happening more and more(which I hate to see!).
> Dogs aren't allowed to push in during trial when the helper locks up, so nobody allows it during training.
> We don't always train for points, we let the dogs have some fun, and that is when you see more of the dog too. Sad that so many only train for trial and not allow the dogs to show actual fight drive(if they even have it)



Handlers don't understand their dogs or how to trial. Trying to out your dog the second the helper locks up should be harder than letting the dog settle for a second. At least if you have a good helper that pressures the dog. "Out" issues are happening more and more because no one believes in stressing the dog in training anymore. So again, if the helper does his job and pressures the dogs, they don't know how to handle it. Auto out's are a whole other story and make me want to vomit every time I see them.


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## G-burg

> My Mal will torque the sleeve or shake his head while on the grip. However, grips always remain full and hard and its is clear that this is a fighting behavior. As such, there was never a need to change it.


So then, you reward the for this behavior, versus trying to discourage it and have the dog pull back?


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## Vandal

I reinforce that behavior when I threaten the dog or put pressure on the dog and his response is to fight. To me, that fighting behavior comes in the form of torquing the sleeve, and not with just the head and neck in a frantic more hectic way, but where the dog uses his entire body. Also, as Jeremy pointed out, he likes a dog who punches into the helper. That's also hitting back or countering. Both are desirable in my opinion when the dog is doing it in the right place and for the right reason.
The pulling behavior has really taken on a life of its own with people attempting to install this reaction from the dog. The good dogs will try to stop the helper on the escape without someone teaching them via hitting them in the legs. The thing people need to ask themselves is, if this is such a powerful thing the dog does why do people hit them in the legs to get them to do it? Over the years while I was learning to work dogs when I would pressure them too much in one session or ask for too many counters, I would get pulling behavior. It is avoidance when a dog pulls back from a threat. It just speaks to how convoluted things have become with training being the king and genetics falling down the list of what is important.
When I have seen people try to stop a dog from fighting, they generally make a huge mess and the grip will slip since the dog's fight is not being respected by the helper. Again we are not talking about a dog thrashing we are talking about a dog fighting. So, if the helper would simply respect it and allow the behavior by relaxing his arm just enough to reinforce it, and then simply turn away, or slip it if it's a younger dog, the dog learns his power works. 
When you ignore the power in the dog you create huge problems not only in the bite but in the control work like outing. I can't tell you how many dogs I have fixed the out by reinforcing the hit back. If you think about it, with the exception of the escape, all of the outs come after the threat or pressure from the helper. When the dog learns he can control the helper by hitting back, he is much more willing to out. Dogs who are not confident have difficulty controlling the helper with only their bark. Reinforcing that hit back teaches the dog that he can take control of the fight and he will be much easier to control as a result.
I've also seen people try to hold the dog on the sleeve or the helper comes up and tries to pet a dog with high fight drive that is holding the sleeve all in an attempt to calm this fight in the dog. Does nothing but make the dog angry and is one of the more stupid things I've seen people do. When a dog has high fight drive, once the sleeve is slipped, the helper should back away and stay at a distance where the dog can unload a bit without continuing to fight with him.
At least it seems like people are moving away from this idea where they are putting their hands on the dogs mouth and holding him on the sleeve once it is slipped. At least I haven't seen it in any videos recently. That's one positive development if you ask me. If the helper does his work correctly the dog will hold it calmly without any "help".

Anyway you look at it, you have to have a good helper who understands the dog and that is just exceedingly difficult to find nowadays. Especially with the new mentality where none of this stuff matters and no one is interested in learning about the dogs.


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## lhczth

Thank you Anne for jumping in and posting.


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## lhczth

Arek vom Stoffelblick - A

He showed it best on the back half helper after the stick hits.


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## G-burg

Thanks everyone for insight! Some good info here..

If a dog has fight in him, then why try to squash it!! By making them pull back..


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## lhczth

Often, IMO, it is because they don't know any better.


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## gsdluvr

Can you (anyone ) post a video of what you like to see in bite work? This video wasn't playing too well.

I am new to bite work and have seen some in my club and on video. I would be curious to see what different opinions look like.

Michael Ellis said he believed the gripping/biting styles in dogs is mostly genetic. TIA


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## holland

The vom banholz site used to have videos which is where the Arek video came from-they had videos of a lot of well known dogs it was interesting


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## mycobraracr

You can see Yoschy torquing on basically every bite. 
https://youtu.be/RPnbJJgK-no

Mink also Torques, and after the long bite you can see him start to drive in before the out. 
https://youtu.be/WqXgZu8AZ0Q

I'm going to try and get some video soon to show what we are talking about with my wifes male. I tried last night, but it was too dark by the time I got home.


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## lhczth

There is a difference, though, in the two. Yoschy is not as calm.

Fero, thrashed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkj9evFLVco


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## mycobraracr

lhczth said:


> There is a difference, though, in the two. Yoschy is not as calm.
> 
> Fero, thrashed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkj9evFLVco



Lol, I knew you were going to say that. I don't disagree, but it was hard to find decent video on my lunch break. I tried looking at some of the "bigger" names from today and couldn't find much of anything remotely useful. This is all I could come up with in a short amount of time. IMO there is a fine line between torquing and thrashing.


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## onyx'girl

watching the blind searches...the dogs looked slow. I see dogs running blinds today like they are on fire. 
So many changes, dogs and sport alike.


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## holland

I thought he might have been older in that video -but he was 3-and for some reason thought fero was years ago-which he was sort of-sorry my post makes no sense


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## lhczth

No, not really. A dog that thrashes tends to moves its grip like Fero is. It is a useless behavior that would tend to tear up both a sheep and a perp. A dog that torques is using its whole body to control the helper.


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## lhczth

Thoguht I might have a video of Deja in training since she torques and fights, but I don't seem to have many training videos of her.


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## Vandal

I agree with Jeremy. It is a fine line. What you see with Fero and to a lesser degree Yoschy, is where it has crossed the line from trying to take control of the fight or control of the helper, to killing the sleeve. Yoschy pulls out of the front and then starts killing the sleeve right there before he refused to out which is typical.

I view the dogs who will fight with their body in order to take control or hit back against the stick or aggression from the helper, to be more solid dogs with strong fight drive, nerves and courage. They escalate in response to the threat. Which, for a German Shepherd, is appropriate behavior.
There are dogs who will take on the man and then there are dogs who will take on the sleeve. Also, training absolutely plays a part in this. If you make it to much about the sleeve with a dog with high fight drive, sometimes you get what Yoschy is doing in that video. Or, like years ago, people would be too hard on the dogs to get the out after they put them too high in drive and then the dogs would start to avoid the front and still try to fight elsewhere. 
However, like what Jeremy said, the dogs with lesser nerves will more easily do the behavior of thrashing and moving away from the threat.


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## Vandal

And I will add, if you think of this in terms of German Shepherds and what was being tested, it is not desirable for a dog to so easily slip into a behavior of killing something, like say sheep. That's where the nerves come in, so the dog can control himself.
I'm not sure what we are doing now puts this on display very much anymore, so breeding becomes a little more difficult or maybe a lot more difficult, depending on your perspective.


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## gsdluvr

Very interesting. I also noticed the speed of the blind search. Seems like there is much emphasis on "blinding speed"(no pun intended).

Is there the assumption that the thrashers are more about the sleeve than the fight with the "man"?

Also, is it more desirable in trial to have a dog that is focused on the fight itself?


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## mycobraracr

gsdluvr said:


> Very interesting. I also noticed the speed of the blind search. Seems like there is much emphasis on "blinding speed"(no pun intended).
> 
> Is there the assumption that the thrashers are more about the sleeve than the fight with the "man"?
> 
> Also, is it more desirable in trial to have a dog that is focused on the fight itself?



Depends on how it thrashes and the training. I've seen some dogs who thrash and the helpers slip the sleeve as the dogs is thrashing. This encourages the thrashing and makes the dog think the thrashing is what "ripped" the sleeve from the helpers arm. Dogs like this are only trying to "win" the sleeve, they aren't really about the fight. 

Then you have the dogs who thrash because they are getting a resistance from the helper. This causes them to "up" the fight and push harder. Not for the sleeve, but for more fight/reaction from the helper himself. I have found a dog like this who is truly in it for the fight is easily transitioned into a dog that will push and drive into the helper instead of thrash. IMO this is more desirable. The dog gets, empowered by moving and controlling the helper without the head movement. 

If you're looking for points, then I don't think a dog with a lot of fight is what you want. Too many now days want the dogs to keep their paws off the helper and the dogs to fall into place. They want crazy fast "outs" and dogs who "respect" the helper. You're not going to get that from a dog who wants the fight. I personally don't want a dog to respect the helper. I expect my dogs to look at the helper and think "I'm going to destroy you". As a helper, I encourage all the dogs I work in this way. They need to dominate the helper and feel as if they can take on the world and win. By whipping dogs paws off me and whipping them in the B&H to keep them barking only shows them that I'm stronger and better than them. It shows them that they can't win. That is the wrong attitude for a protection dog. 

Disclaimer- There are ways to do some of these things without putting the dog down. Unfortunately too many don't do it that way or have a dog that can take it.


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## Vandal

gsdluvr said:


> Very interesting. I also noticed the speed of the blind search. Seems like there is much emphasis on "blinding speed"(no pun intended).
> 
> Is there the assumption that the thrashers are more about the sleeve than the fight with the "man"?
> 
> Also, is it more desirable in trial to have a dog that is focused on the fight itself?


I think people have to consider the difference in training between now and some years back. The dog was in a different frame of mind than the dogs we see mostly nowadays. Did that impact speed? Probably. Many of the dogs were thinking there was someone in the blind who was more about a fight than simply there to reward the dog for barking. 
Not to mention the dogs had slightly different temperament back then. There were dogs who were fast BTW, I think people look at one or two videos and have a tendency to color all the dogs the same. 

I explained the question about the sleeve and the impact certain kinds of training can have. However, I saw dogs who were treated quite harshly who would fight to stay in the front and the grip was never impacted. They were the ones moving the helper with their entire body and were really the great dogs of their time....and probably our time as well. IMO anyway.

As for it being about a "fight". SchH was created as a test of the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG...not the other breeds who participate in IPO now. The protection phase was designed to test the protective instinct. GSDS are supposed to be protective but SchH also tested the traits that support that instinct. NERVES, courage and the ability to take on an aggressive and sometimes completely neutral bad guy. The dog was supposed to be able to demonstrate his ability to judge the situation and escalate accordingly. So, in the blind there is a helper doing nothing and the dog should not bite but aggressively hold the bad guy there with his bark. That takes a good dog to not just go in there and bite, especially when you consider what I said about the difference in training. The dogs viewed the helper as much more of an adversary back then. 
When he tried to escape the dog stops him and then the attacks from the helper start. Here is where the helper has escalated his aggression, so the dog escalates to meet it and for me, the hitting back behavior is part of that. It is not something you want to see in the entire routine or in the escape. It is an answer to the bad guy's attacks. He hits or threatens the dog and the dog answers. GSDs are not fighting dogs, but they should have fight drive. The standard calls for that....or it used to anyway before all this PC garbage started and they watered down the language.

We want GSDs who can be family dogs and also possess that protective instinct. They have to possess the ability to distinguish what a threat is and to deal with it appropriately without losing their minds or again, if you consider herding, if the dog encounters an angry ram they should only do what is necessary to put that ram back in his place...not kill it or maim it because the fight rattles the dog.


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## Vandal

I have to say the dogs who I have worked with high fight were also quite clean and compliant. It's a myth created by bad training that the dogs that are high fight are automatically dirty.


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## gsdluvr

"We want GSDs who can be family dogs and also possess that protective instinct. They have to possess the ability to distinguish what a threat is and to deal with it appropriately without losing their minds or again, if you consider herding, if the dog encounters an angry ram they should only do what is necessary to put that ram back in his place...not kill it or maim it because the fight rattles the dog."

This must be the definition of "clear headed". The ideal dog.


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## mycobraracr

Vandal said:


> I have to say the dogs who I have worked with high fight were also quite clean and compliant. It's a myth created by bad training that the dogs that are high fight are automatically dirty.



I'm not saying automatically dirty. I agree bad training is the reason for a lot the issues. I'm saying that dogs with high fight generally want to stay in the fight so generally are slower on the outs. At least from what I've worked with. Not saying they don't out or are dirty once they do. Just not that borderline auto out we see so often.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I noticed it too, slower and also on the long bite the dogs don't launch from a distance 'catching a lot of air' right before the bite. They are pretty close to the helper before they go up for the sleeve.

You see a lot of pictures too, of dogs now a days being quite high up, legs akimbo being swung in the air. The leaps look like dock diving for the sleeve. Amazing athleticism but I wonder how safe that is sometimes? A lot of speed and momentum at a time the dog is airborne with little to no control to correct itself once in the air. Do those flying leaps into the bite have a reason or place beyond sport? Just curious. 

I read what Ann said about not judging against a few videos which is true and I'm not an expert but I've got a few trials (observing IRL) and lot's of modern videos and watching people train, there's some differences that even as a newbie I'm seeing.

btw- Love the pine boughs on the blinds too. I'm assuming the older videos were done mostly in Germany? 




gsdluvr said:


> Very interesting. *I also noticed the speed of the blind search.* Seems like there is much emphasis on "blinding speed"(no pun intended).
> 
> <snipped>


----------



## gsdluvr

Right!!! Those blinding leaps where the dog is airborne. Is that just for show? Or.......???


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## lhczth

The long bite is different now than it used to be. The helper used to come out about blind four, run away from the dog (when he got to the center line), the dog would be released and then the helper would turn and run towards the dog. It was more a test of courage when the dog went from prey (chase) to defense (being attacked) so a lot of the dogs didn't fly through the bite like they were grabbing their toy. The long bite now is more of a prey bite (yes, I can hear the grumblings at that comment already  ) so you get more speed and more flash. Many dogs are also taught to come up and fly through the bite because dogs that leave the ground early are easier and many times safer to catch than one that goes center mass or leaves later. I have dogs of both types. Go look at videos of Tyson Schifflache (sp?). He came center mass and tended to just slam the helpers. I don't know how he didn't get hurt.


----------



## Steve Strom

This show's a pretty hard, center mass hit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps_ddqj9zuw


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## CroMacster

Steve Strom said:


> This show's a pretty hard, center mass hit:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps_ddqj9zuw


I like it, Dog wasn't interested in being spun around, just took it straight to him.

Edit to add and a little OT: From a helper perspective what should he have done to prevent this? It appears he tried to give the dog room to be spun around stick side, but that didn't happen.

Another video of the same dog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6laaB5n9MY


----------



## Vandal

> I read what Ann said about not judging against a few videos which is true and I'm not an expert but I've got a few trials (observing IRL) and lot's of modern videos and watching people train, there's some differences that even as a newbie I'm seeing.


 It goes back to what I said along with the remark about not all dogs were like that. The dogs overall, were different. Like it or not, they had more fight drive and as a general rule were not viewing this like the dogs generally do now. The helper was not just transporting the prey item, the dogs were fighting the helper, so the way they approached the blind or came down the field was different because the dog was not expecting just a friendly encounter or "sparring match". The training was different and so were the dogs.

Now we have the magic wedge that so many helpers are using on every dog in their club. They hold it to the side and away from their body for the dog to fly in and bite. As a general rule, I will hold the sleeve away from my body or higher up to encourage prey drive or to help a dog who is showing some insecurity in the face of my presence as the helper. That method is encouraging the dogs to only look at the wedge or sleeve during the "long bite"...which is probably a good name change since courage doesn't have much to do with it anymore. Any yelling from the helper just encourages more excitement and speed, it is not threatening when things are done in this fashion and with the kinds of dogs we see more now who are simply more "friendly" than the dogs we saw years ago. Far less natural suspicion, social aggression and protectiveness. 

The dogs will of course be faster when there is less threat but and prey drive is the drive to chase and capture, ( speed), only now it has been perverted to be less serious and more about the bite item than about catching a bad guy.


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## Vandal

What we saw more often on the courage test years ago, were dogs who would come at a steady speed down the field and then in the last ten feet or so, drive hard into the helper. Behavior that is more indicative of fight drive.


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## onyx'girl

I recently trialed for the 3 and the judge commented that my dog slowed down between 3 and 4(not sure but I think he probably took points for it). My dog did a very clean blind search, checked blinds and IMO it was a flawless exercise. 
Judges seem to be comparing the GSD to a Mal and look for speed. My dog also isn't one that does the flying leap, but will go into the helper with power. We seldom do long bites because I don't want either to be injured. I'll take a dog like mine any day over one that is all about speed and running round an object for the sake of running around an object.


----------



## GatorDog

I also found this year's USCA Nationals to show a few dogs who slowed down probably more so than usual, because they didn't see a sleeve presented until they were pretty much on top of the helper. Just an interesting observation..


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

CroMacster said:


> I like it, Dog wasn't interested in being spun around, just took it straight to him.
> 
> Edit to add and a little OT: From a helper perspective what should he have done to prevent this? It appears he tried to give the dog room to be spun around stick side, but that didn't happen.
> 
> Another video of the same dog.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6laaB5n9MY


 
The dog in those videos is nice but not super fast in the first video. The helper just needs to work on his timing.
As for the training you do your best to prevent this if you have a fast dog. You do this through training the dog to properly target the equipment because that is what he is biting.

You can use a wedge or half sleeve do long bites. Helper holds the wedge in front in the same place as a sleeve would sit, then as the dog comes down the field move the sleeve slowly to the left and set it before the dog hits. 
If he is still going centre or doesnt move enough with the sleeve the helper simply tosses it to the left. Handler downs the dog before he can get to the sleeve and repeats the exercise.
You will see the dog fixes his targeting very quickly with this. Same for a dog that does not like to leave the ground. As the dog comes down the field simply slowly move the wedge / sleeve up and to the left, if he is to low simply toss the wedge /sleeve upward slightly. He will miss low and have to repeat the exercise.

A dog that properly targets equipment is a safer dog. Regardless, most dogs that have a fast long bite and dont slow tend to be on the stronger side of the spectrum imo. 

If you want to train personal protection then train it, you will quickly find out whats there and what isnt. IPO is not that.


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## G-burg

If the dog is genetically wired to come center, then I don't believe you can change it.. You can try all the things you posted... but I believe they will always revert back.. We have one in our club, low prey, high aggression dog, and they tried all that stuff, minuses tossing a sleeve and the dog has always reverted back to whats strong inside him.. But for this dog, it's more about the fight then it is with the sleeve!



> Regardless, most dogs that have a fast long bite and dont slow tend to be on the stronger side of the spectrum imo.


Stronger in what?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Thank you Lisa and Anne for the explanations.

Eik Vom Nordenstamm, more like a Mack truck**. Workman like, strong, no nonsense. I like. 



Steve Strom said:


> This show's a pretty hard, center mass hit:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps_ddqj9zuw




**explains why I'm more of superduty gal then a mustang gal.


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## Blitzkrieg1

G-burg said:


> If the dog is genetically wired to come center, then I don't believe you can change it.. You can try all the things you posted... but I believe they will always revert back.. We have one in our club, low prey, high aggression dog, and they tried all that stuff, minuses tossing a sleeve and the dog has always reverted back to whats strong inside him.. But for this dog, it's more about the fight then it is with the sleeve!
> 
> Stronger in what?


This has worked for numerous dogs including my current one who liked to go centre. Takes a helper with timing, also takes a dog that is safe and under control. 
The way to the fight is through the sleeve in IPO. If the dog never achieves satisfaction because he constantly misses the sleeve then he will assuredly adjust his vector to hit said sleeve. 
When he misses he gets downed and the handler picks him up. No bite, no fight nothing. 
A dog that lacks the correct drive or has nerve issues probably will have issues with this.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Per Lisa's suggestion, Tyson von der Schiffslache.

Here it appears he slips and sweeps the helpers legs out from under him.....but.....







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UcOUq67ebs


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## Blitzkrieg1

Same for dogs that have issues with late presentations. Simple repition of long bites with moving targets and showing the dog differently timed presentations once the targeting is solid. After several iterations he knows even if he doesnt see the sleeve it will come and roughly where it will be presented and will come on with speed.

Tyson leaves the ground late, and the helper looks unprepared for how he enters the bite. He actually isnt super fast in this video nor is there much distance on this bite either. This is the kind of stuff you want to fix for the sake of your dog. Yes your dog might knock down some unprepared or slower helpers, but what good is that when he breaks his neck or slips a disk.

I think helpers have got better too since the old days....


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## Gwenhwyfair

Here it appears the dog has a preference (or trained?) to try to take the helper out from center mass??

Long bite starts 5:00


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## Gwenhwyfair

Did you see the video madlab linked in the subforum just below?

It's a compilation but the dogs look more like they are competing for a long jump then a long bite?

At what point do the "flight times" become too extreme?




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Same for dogs that have issues with late presentations. Simple repition of long bites with moving targets and showing the dog differently timed presentations once the targeting is solid. After several iterations he knows even if he doesnt see the sleeve it will come and roughly where it will be presented and will come on with speed.
> 
> Tyson leaves the ground late, and the helper looks unprepared for how he enters the bite. He actually isnt super fast in this video nor is there much distance on this bite either. This is the kind of stuff you want to fix for the sake of your dog. Yes your dog might knock down some unprepared or slower helpers, but what good is that when he breaks his neck or slips a disk.
> 
> I think helpers have got better too since the old days....


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## Blitzkrieg1

They dont, the helper is a stationary target. Dogs that fly are easier to catch and are safer. These dogs likely fly because they were given numerous high presentations in their foundation. I hate dogs that come up just under the sleeve.

This is a fast dog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRlVtA4Y6gg

I train with some of his kids and its genetic.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I have to leave that up to the folks with a lot more experience then me to sort out....but if you watch that video madlab linked below (some suit work, some IPO) some of those flying bites look pretty extreme and downright dangerous to me....

in edit: re your video. That's how a mali works, is that how GSDs should work though?


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## Blitzkrieg1

Those bites arent that abnormal nor are they dangerous. When you catch a few dogs you start to see. 

Thats a big Mal he comes fast and hits hard. That dog was used as an example of what I consider extreme. 
You see good speed out of many good GSDs. Conversley, you see plenty of Malis that slow upon entry.


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## onyx'girl

Off topic some, does speed equal power? Sprinter compared to a marathoner?
Speed is great, to catch the prey of course, but once caught...is there enough power to hold and control, not just go along for the ride?


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## Gwenhwyfair

I won't ever catch dogs Blitz.....

Too old, not strong, bad back and knees from wrangling too many 1000 pound critters, horses. 

This has been a very interesting thread and I'll leave it to the pros to discuss. 



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Those bites arent that abnormal nor are they dangerous. When you catch a few dogs you start to see.
> 
> Thats a big Mal he comes fast and hits hard. That dog was used as an example of what I consider extreme.
> You see good speed out of many good GSDs. Conversley, you see plenty of Malis that slow upon entry.


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## GatorDog

Steve Strom said:


> This show's a pretty hard, center mass hit:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps_ddqj9zuw


That looks like a decent dog that was totally stonewalled by the helper..


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## mycobraracr

I personally prefer a dog that comes center. It allows me to take the dog where I want. I'm a smaller guy, so larger, fast dogs I prefer to take stick side. I find it easier to absorb the momentum and stay on my feet that way. A dog who comes center gives me that option to go where I want to safely make that catch. A good helper can move some dogs one side or the other by body placement and foot work. I have found however that a strong dog isn't going to be moved by the helper. It's going to go where it goes and nothing is going to change that. 

To answer Jane, no speed and power have no relation. Speed brings momentum. Momentum and power are not the same.


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## G-burg

Here's more of the dog in this full clip.. I think he starts at 4:10 mark and they even have it in slow mo.. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5cS0CxjBs


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## Steve Strom

GatorDog said:


> That looks like a decent dog that was totally stonewalled by the helper..


Eik was retired before I joined, but I think it was just that he came like Anne mentioned, that hard drive directly into the helper. He probably thought he was going to take him one direction or the other and just wasn't ready for that punch.


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## mycobraracr

Watching it in slow mo, that's not a dog hitting center mass. That's a dog that goes sleeve side and the helper tried to take him stick side. The helper opened the door a bit early and the dog "beat" him to the side. So basically the dog was fed elbow. Could have not been the helpers fault. It worked a dog recently who he entire run was staring at my left(sleeve) side. This usually would indicate the dog is going sleeve side. When the dog launched, it launched off its right leg, coming cross body towards my stick side. This was a training issue on the dogs part. 

There are people out there who try and train their dogs to "beat" the helper because they think it looks cool when there is a hard hit or the knock the helper down. This is very unsafe for both dog and helper. 

Like blitz said, dogs with a good launch are in a lot of ways easier to catch. Once they're in the air, they can't change direction. So it allows the helper to place them where they need them. Now with that said, there is no need for a dog to be launching 30ft away.


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## Steve Strom

If anyone can find video of this dog, I can't, I think he fits more into the torquing conversation. 

Antar vom Kiefern Tal


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## GatorDog

Steve Strom said:


> GatorDog said:
> 
> 
> 
> That looks like a decent dog that was totally stonewalled by the helper..
> 
> 
> 
> Eik was retired before I joined, but I think it was just that he came like Anne mentioned, that hard drive directly into the helper. He probably thought he was going to take him one direction or the other and just wasn't ready for that punch.
Click to expand...

Agree. I think he was a powerful dog into the man, but that man couldn't figure out where to put him, thus the takedown.i


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## Vandal

> Agree. I think he was a powerful dog into the man, but that man couldn't figure out where to put him, thus the takedown.


 I think I agree....from what can be seen in the video anyway. I think this idea that the helper needs to decide which way to take the dog before he gets there, is a problem for the really strong dogs. When you think too much out there, you make mistakes. The helper has to be more relaxed and almost move their body out of the way with these kinds of dogs. When I was younger, I could catch any dog and some that came harder than that one because I could do what I just said. I can still do it to a degree as long as I don't start thinking too much as the dog is coming at me. 
If you land flat on your feet in that second before the dog hits, you are going down...you have to kind of stay on the balls of your feet and like I said, move your body out of the way and let the dog go where the momentum takes him.


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## mycobraracr

Vandal said:


> I think I agree....from what can be seen in the video anyway. I think this idea that the helper needs to decide which way to take the dog before he gets there, is a problem for the really strong dogs. When you think too much out there, you make mistakes. The helper has to be more relaxed and almost move their body out of the way with these kinds of dogs. When I was younger, I could catch any dog and some that came harder than that one because I could do what I just said. I can still do it to a degree as long as I don't start thinking too much as the dog is coming at me.
> If you land flat on your feet in that second before the dog hits, you are going down...you have to kind of stay on the balls of your feet and like I said, move your body out of the way and let the dog go where the momentum takes him.



A drill I did for a while, was taking a volleyball or basketball and having my wife throw it at me(her favorite drill haha). If I did it right, the ball would touch my arm/shoulder depending on how I was catching, and fall straight to the ground. If it bounced off, then I jammed the dog. If it went passed me then I opened the door too early. The nice thing about this, is that no two throws are the same. It teaches you to stay light on your toes. It also gets your brain to slow things down so you can see whats happening. Much like a baseball player watching a fastball at 100+ mph.


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## Vandal

Yes, there is certainly an aspect of that. You have to watch the dog come all the way to the sleeve...a little like catching a ball.....and like I said, don't over-think it. You have to be an athlete and for sure, not brace yourself or try to take the dog somewhere that the momentum isn't taking them.
That drill is a good one because it makes you keep your eye on the ball the same way you should the dogs. The people who divert their eyes because the impact is coming, are really dangerous to the dogs and themselves. I see that a lot with new helpers. 
Or, like I said, the over-thinkers are also a problem ...it has to be kind of second nature...best way I can describe it.


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## carmspack

I will add this to the discussion having witnessed a spontaneous , not trained , action to a situation . I have mentioned this one before. Our neighbour has 100 acres directly behind our property where his sheep do a rotational graze . They had passed over a downed e-fence , gone through the corn , and were in our property . One hefty crafty sheep just did not want to join his flock and became difficult , charging instead of going away. The young male dog that I had with me flew at the sheep , hitting him broadsides . I see this blur of sheep and attached dog skidding away , sheep on side . When they come to a stop the dog is pushing into him to pin him to the ground, keep sheep under his control . Full body pressure inspite of the sheep writing to get up and run. No pulling away . (this was Gus's sire) (brother to Journey IPO 3 , who has the same drive into the decoy). 
Farmer had been phoned and arrived on scene on his all-terrain , situation handled. No damage to either animal. 

It was very interesting to see this natural response in a non-trained, non-sport , situation.


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## onyx'girl

Vandal said:


> I think I agree....from what can be seen in the video anyway. I think this idea that the helper needs to decide which way to take the dog before he gets there, is a problem for the really strong dogs. When you think too much out there, you make mistakes. The helper has to be more relaxed and almost move their body out of the way with these kinds of dogs. When I was younger, I could catch any dog and some that came harder than that one because I could do what I just said. I can still do it to a degree as long as I don't start thinking too much as the dog is coming at me.
> If you land flat on your feet in that second before the dog hits, you are going down...you have to kind of stay on the balls of your feet and like I said, move your body out of the way and let the dog go where the momentum takes him.


I was training for about a year with a national level trial helper. We spent one whole day working on the way dogs hit. Mals in particular. He was mentoring a new helper and showing him how to catch dogs that went center. He said the tail would always key him which way to take the dog(remember he is a trial helper, so doesn't train with the dogs he's catching on the long bite). Tail acts as a rudder and he would watch it as much as watching the dog. I don't know if he was BS'ing or if it was something for the new helper to take under instruction. But after a few sessions, it did show the tailset is part of the picture. Though many dogs are a blur when coming in.


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