# Is personal protection dog training really what I want?



## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

In 4 weeks I will be bringing home a German Shepherd mix. Mostly German Shepherd, some Border Collie or other shepherding breed mixed in.

Anyways, I'd love to have a dog that can defend me if need be. I don't care about having a guard dog, as my house isn't that important as long as all of my animals are safe.

But if I move to a bigger city in the next few years like I plan to, I hope to still live alone, and I would love to have a dog that would be capable of defending me if there was ever an issue to arise while we're out walking or at the barn or something where I will be alone in an isolated area.

I don't want a liability, I don't want a dog that will just attack willy nilly (which I do know is NOT the case with a properly trained dog), and I don't really care about having a dog that I can send off to catch someone.

Is it possible to have a personal protection dog that is JUST trained to defend on command, either on or off-leash? To jump over any obstacles and come to me and then defend, with or without "proper" bitework techniques? But only on command or when an attack happens, not just to anybody who acts a tiny bit shady? Again, I know this just involves proper training and tons of socialization and so on... but yeah.

Of course, I would be working with a qualified professional with this, and they would know my goals and so on... but is this something that is even potentially a "thing"... or does all protection dog training have to include everything in order for it to work well?


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

It is possible. But it takes ALOT of work, commitment, and dedication.

Usually the dog either has it or they don't. If they have "it" you'll spend the majority of the time incorporating obedience and control work, proofing the dog, and generalizing. 

With that said, just having a GSD will deter 99% of would be criminals. Remember, you don't have to outrun the bear, just the person running next to you. It sounds mean, but it's true - given the choice, criminals will choose the house without a dog, or the house with a small dog, before they choose the house with the GSD barking @ the other side.

Yes - there are "experiments" and people saying that an untrained dog may not defend you when the need arises. I believe that most criminals are not going to try and find out unless they are targeting you personally.

So, IMO your path of least resistance, and thus the easiest is to get a GSD and spend as much time as possible socializing him, introducing him to people, getting him nice and confident, and obedient. Don't make enemies if you don't have to and then get a gun if you really need to feel safe.

JMO.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Well, if she turns out not to be suited for it, of course I won't push it, and go for what does suit her, and just keep her as a "deterrent" as you said. And of course, tons of socialization, confidence building, obedience training, etc.

Thanks for the opinion.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

To me...it sounds like you just don't want to do the work to get a full protection dog. The problem with not going hardcore into bite work and having proper bitework technique is that while training, your dog gets pressure tested, which is very important if a true attack is happening. There aren't many dogs that naturally will bite a human and will continue biting if that human fights back. Remember...a trained human, that is expecting a dog attack, can disable a dog. Without knowing that your dog will continue to bite when the attacker is punching/stabbing/kicking/chocking the dog, what's the point of having the protection dog if it will just run away the moment any kind of pressure like that is put on it.

Don't take this the wrong way...but especially because of where your dog comes from, there is no guarantee it will be good enough for this type of work. If you've ever seen a dog in drive during bite sport...you'd understand how hard it is to control them without proper obedience.

Anytime someone says they just want a PPD dog it worries me...mostly because of the amount of training thats necessary and because they probably don't completely understand how hard the training is. And its the training that tells the handler that the dog is ready and will do what is expected.

You should also know that if your dog is bite trained, and bites someone off your property, and you can't prove 100% that the person was going to hurt you. You've just lost your dog, and your house. If this is something you really want, you really have to be confident in the training that your dog receives because it does become a huge liability.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

I want to do the work and continue the training and so on and so forth, but I don't have a need to do the full out protection dog training, which is why I'm wondering if it's even worth it.

I just don't know that much about it myself, which is why I said I'd go to a professional as soon as we're out of the basic obedience training, and so on and so forth.

And of course, I don't want a dog that could be a liability and bite someone that wasn't actually a threat.


I understand training and I understand obedience and dog behavior, but personal protection dog training and schutzhund and that realm is new and foreign to me, which is why I'm trying to learn. 

As for the bitework, I guess I was thinking maybe not have a dog that will bite, but a stronger deterrent in a dog that will bark and chase off someone on command, not one that will bite. But I see what you mean about putting pressure and the dog caving to that pressure.


I do eventually want it, with this dog or an already trained dog from a qualified professional breeder/trainer in future, and I want to learn as much as possible, even if that want never pans out.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

And it's beginning to sound like a fully trained personal protection dog ISN'T what I want/need at this time.

A month or two ago I was dead set on it. I wanted it so much. But the more I was reading into it, I'd be like "well, I kinda want that, I don't need that at all, I don't see the point of that in my situation", etc etc etc.

I still want a dog that would be able to pull at a leash and bark on command though. Not do a thing in regards to biting, just bark and maybe growl type of thing... just as a deterrent. With no expectation of anything else.

One that could jump over a stall door to protect me would be nice/movie-like...  But I don't think I'm going to really have issues, and if I ever think I might, she'd just be with me the whole time, not off doing her own thing.


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## GSKnight (Oct 18, 2011)

My puppy isn't trained in any type of formal protection, but from how he behaves, I have little double he would protect me if I was threatened. But, that said, his sheer size and intimidating "look" back off most people. Sounds like that is all you need.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks guys.  This'll save me money.  I was planning on putting down several thousand at minimum in training... and while I'll still consult with a professional if need be, or if I plan on doing any kind of schutzhund or sport work, I won't be putting down the big bucks for a professionally trained personal protection dog.

So now, to wait the 4 more weeks and then enjoy her.  This actually takes a load off of me, I was so worried that various training methods would "ruin" her for protection dog training, that I wouldn't get the right kind of toys, etc etc. So... now that I've decided to forgo it, I feel a lot better about bringing her home.

Thanks everyone.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'll say this, too - when you're on your own in a big city, it's really nice to have a dog you can bring everywhere with you. Some places will even bend their rules when your dog is well mannered. Have fun with your puppy


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## Tucker-Lisa (Jan 13, 2014)

Hi, when my pup was around 6 months I started training him for personal protection as I had someone enter my house uninvited (before I got my GSD and which is one of the key reasons I chose this breed). I was worried that it would make him more aggressive but the training is all treated as a game to the dog. I didn't take it to the full extent of training but I went enough that I felt more safe having my dog trained. He is now 2 yrs, and tho I didn't continue with his training, his bark is enough to deter any intruders and gave me more confidence in being "protected".


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Anyways, I'd love to have a dog that can defend me if need be.


I trained PP dogs some years ago, let me tell you - you don't need one. People who train and have them mainly are or the bodyguards, or those who are really scared for their lives, i.e. businessmen with risky business, or people who live in unsafe environment. PP dog is a killer dog, and has to be brought up in a certain way since he was born. From the early days these dogs are trained to stand above the human, always to win in everything, and no way they can be family pets. At the age of one year and half their training starts subjecting the dog to cruelty, because the dog should be able to fight for his life. I couldn't stand this any longer, I felt that this sort of training contradicts my nature and turned 180 degrees.
Nobody walks PP dog in the streets, so forget about it. In any case, a dog is a poor protection against guns, and police of today doesn't need any protective dogs.
The dog's quality used in Schutzhund protection training (read about it) is not his agression, but GSD passion. GSDs are passionate dogs and do it out of pleasurable excitement, experiencing positive emotions with the bite 100%. Again, if you would like to be a sportsman, you should become a member and start training your puppy in this direction right now, when he is that young. But remember - you would be out of the club, if your dog bites anyone outside the club. The training starts at three months and the skills are polished something like at 3 years of age, then you continue to participate in competitions seeking titles. Not everybody can go that far, and their dogs are left semi-trained and thus dangerous to public, their fate is miserable, because they have to be muzzled for life and walk on a short lead only.
Of course, my present dog is not the only dog I had, I had GSDs before, and I can tell you that it was me who always had to protect my dogs from people and other dogs, not vice versa! If you feel unsafe and need protection, please don't seek it in your dog, but join a club where you can learn martial arts.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

David Taggat. Who ever taught you to train " p.p.d. was a idiot! 
Anyone can make a dog mean" that's not saying much Bill


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Titan is training SAR.. opposite of protection.. infect it's encouraged to be friendly to strangers wandering, as that could be our victim.. That being said.. I have little to no doubt in my mind that he would "stop" so to speak, an intruder or threat. There is just something in them that makes them sense those things. Though on the flip side I know what you mean about wanting a command and to control him more than anything.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

bill said:


> David Taggat. Who ever taught you to train " p.p.d. was a idiot!
> Anyone can make a dog mean" that's not saying much Bill


The Spetsnaz? 
*
*


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

WE had a 1/2 GSD and half herder, we believe Aussie mix. The eye contact my dog had was enough to creep people out. She was also protective, but definitely not as protective as my 100% female GSD. That was a enjoyable mix for us. She was more of a herder in a fun way. She only needed a leash due to leash laws, but if there weren't any I could trust her to stay with me. Herders are the most intelligent dogs. I'm sure if you need some degree of protection your dog will respond at the appropriate moment.

Here's an example of how she was protective: my teenage daughters would take her to the beach, she was mostly OK until someone came too close to their blankets. If they were at a park and sitting on a bench, again she was fine unless someone broke her imaginary line of what was too close. She didn't lunge or bite, but gave a warning growl. Once the kids started walking she was fine.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> I trained PP dogs some years ago


well that's the most terrifying thing I've read all week


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

You would save a lot of money and relieve the burden from the dog by taking responsibility for your safety yourself.

Buy a handgun and get professional training along with use of force laws, then apply for your CCW license.

"Never mind the dog, beware of the owner."


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

I have a taser, I have been to those martial arts defense training classes that are provided by the local police force, I'm not just some ditzy girl who expects the dog to do everything for her. However, even with a gun, taser , and defense training, I know how oblivious I am, and I do like having a big dog next to me , even if for nothing but the knowledge that I'm not alone.

I didn't get this dog for the purpose of a PPD. I chose her because it's time to add another dog to my life. And from there, began looking at various things I could do, saw PPD training, it appealed to me initially, and now I see it's not what I am actually wanting.

I disagree though with the premise of as soon as you begin any kind of bitework training, that your dog needs to be muzzled and you would never be able to do anything with them. It goes back to boundaries , obedience, and socialization.

But yeah. Sorry to bother you guys.




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Serbrider said:


> I have a taser, I have been to those martial arts defense training classes that are provided by the local police force, I'm not just some ditzy girl who expects the dog to do everything for her. However, even with a gun, taser , and defense training, I know how oblivious I am, and I do like having a big dog next to me , even if for nothing but the knowledge that I'm not alone.
> 
> I didn't get this dog for the purpose of a PPD. I chose her because it's time to add another dog to my life. And from there, began looking at various things I could do, saw PPD training, it appealed to me initially, and now I see it's not what I am actually wanting.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone meant to offend you, more just wanted to answer your question thoroughly and make sure you understand what you are getting into if that's what you wanted. Some people get their mind set on something and nothing can change their mind, and that mindset can become a liability.

I too wanted a PPD at first (before I even found a dog I wanted) I was single, military, living alone in Germany and thought for sure that's what I wanted, until I did the research on that.. it's too intense, as I'm sure you have found, and isn't ideal for a lot of the situation I would be in.. I think that's where people are coming from, just explaining that it doesn't sound ideal for you.. but if you are set on it, which is your decision completely just prepare yourself and do the research. A half trained dog is far worse, in my opinon, than an untrained one. All or nothing, IMO..


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

I'm not dead set on it.

I've been looking at adding a dog to my "pack" (currently a 9 year old lab/pit mutt and a cat of unknown origin), and have been looking at primarily German Shepherds, Bully type dogs, Mastiffs, and similar... not for their protection value, but because I love those dogs. Even though a GSD is the only dog to have ever bitten me and drawn blood (that dog had some serious screws missing).

About two months ago or so I really started to look into schutzhund, as in appropriate breeds, whether older dogs could do some of it, etc... because I didn't know much about it, but it always appealed to me. And then ran across PPD training, and the differences.

I know I have only scratched the surface. I know there is so much more to it. But I started wanting it. Still kinda do... but I'm not dead set on it.

So, I did not "get" this puppy to do PPD. I thought it might be something we could add to our normal training, depending on her aptitude for it.

I guess if I do something with bitework if she really shows a strong drive and aptitude, I could do more of the sport angle rather than the PPD angle.

Sorry for coming off defensively... I guess I just wanted it to be clear that I wasn't getting this dog because I wasn't able or willing to defend myself...


ETA: With the half-trained dog... I guess it depends on how you're training. I always begin my training with a "cease" type command, where the dog has to stop whatever it's doing and look at me. So with bitework, that "cease" (not that word, I usually have used "stop" or "ho" or something) command would be like the "aus"/"out"... and trained at the beginning rather than towards the end.

But I guess if you're training like with the videos I've been seeing online, where the drive and bite is built up and built up and built up so strong, and only then focusing it... I guess that could definitely be more dangerous.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Serbrider said:


> Sorry for coming off defensively... I guess I just wanted it to be clear that I wasn't getting this dog because I wasn't able or willing to defend myself...
> 
> 
> ETA: With the half-trained dog... I guess it depends on how you're training. I always begin my training with a "cease" type command, where the dog has to stop whatever it's doing and look at me. So with bitework, that "cease" (not that word, I usually have used "stop" or "ho" or something) command would be like the "aus"/"out"... and trained at the beginning rather than towards the end.
> ...


Oh I definintely understood what you were thinking.. only because I was there years ago before I decided on a dog too. And I get the appearing "defensless" thing too. It's always annoying  

But you seem pretty smart in that you are doing your research. 

What I meant about half trained, is that with something like PPD the handler needs to be 100% committed. You get a lot of people (not saying that it would be you) that want it, but when they realize the work it takes they still want it but think they can just meet once a week and that's it. Type of thing. So the dog has the foundation but not the consistency. Where you are talking about "aus" and bite work as if you were consistent (which I suspect you would be). Same thing with OB.. as I"m so learning right now  I slacked off training Titan's recall.. so now his is 90% vs 100% and bit me in the butt last week at SAR training when he rushed someone and ignored me... now that was an eye opener, and fixable, but I now see why they always say to be consistent and no half-s** train or slack off... I can only imagine if I had done bite work and not kept up with the training and softened on him a bit what may have happened. (does that make sense.. I feel I'm rambling, which is entirely possible.. )


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> The Spetsnaz?


 They prefer caterpillars. 
These dogs act by command only. 
North Korea video shows dogs attacking South Korea... | Stuff.co.nz


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

I was pretty slack with my current dog. She of course didn't do any kind of bitework, but because I got her when I was 12, and didn't know much about training, nutrition, etc... and my parents weren't really around to do it... I didn't exactly do what I should. She understands a lot of what I'm telling her, but command-wise, the only thing she will do without needing a treat or some other reward is "sit" and "leave it". Her recall is HORRID. I mean, she doesn't run off, she prefers to stay with me, keep me or my house in sight, but I would never take her off leash somewhere where there is no fencing, off my property, or there are a lot of distractions.

Didn't help that due to various living arrangements I did not have control over, she was living outside 24/7 with my grandparents for over two years.

I have worked with her, and she has manners, she has boundaries, and she is getting better on certain things, but I do agree. If you are not consistent, you can have a lot of issues. I don't want to even think how she'd be if we had done hunting or bitework training.

I don't let her get away with things, but at the same time, I know I cannot trust her to follow every command, especially with distractions, because she didn't have that foundation or that consistent work.


I've trained a couple of friends' dogs or various dogs while I was working at the vet clinic (nothing bad, I promise, just stuff like voice command "sit", "down", "wait", and similar). I wish I had my own dog in those cases because even when I got a consistent work and got things going, I knew their owners weren't going to follow through, and I'd have to redo the training the next time I saw them.

Also working on my horse as well. She was on pasture for about 4 months recently, and her training has gone down the tube, so I'm building up that consistency again, and that respect. It would have been so much easier and better if we didn't have that slack off at all though.

Which is why I'm glad I'm finally going to have my own dog that I can start from the ground up and have that consistency with. 


So... if that's what you're talking about, yes. I agree. 

And as for research... I love research. Way too much sometimes.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Serbrider said:


> I have a taser, I have been to those martial arts defense training classes that are provided by the local police force, I'm not just some ditzy girl who expects the dog to do everything for her. However, even with a gun, taser , and defense training, I know how oblivious I am, and I do like having a big dog next to me , even if for nothing but the knowledge that I'm not alone.
> 
> I didn't get this dog for the purpose of a PPD. I chose her because it's time to add another dog to my life. And from there, began looking at various things I could do, saw PPD training, it appealed to me initially, and now I see it's not what I am actually wanting.
> 
> ...


Well "speaking" for myself your not bothering us. I'm pretty sure a lot of eyes bulged out at what was said, about how PPD dogs aren't safe in public by another poster, You were asking reasonable question. None of the flack is directed at you. Sometimes threads just kinda take off on a tangent.

To wit... I'm no expert but a dog that is barely controllable isn't of much use if you spend all your time worrying about your time bomb of a dog going berserk on some stranger. But as I say I'm not an expert.

That is "not" directed at you the OP,


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well "speaking" for myself your not bothering us. I pretty sure a lot of eyes bulged out at what was said.
> 
> I'm no expert but a dog that is barely controllable isn't of much use if you spend all your time worrying about your time bomb of a dog going berserk on some stranger. But as I say I'm not an expert.


Thanks.

As for a time bomb of a dog, I do agree with that. I thought that even from the start of bitework training basic obedience and socialization and that control is always in the background ready to step in. I guess we're thinking of different things... because I know a couple dogs that started bitework (both Schutzhund I believe), never finished through the training, and they aren't time bombs and not for an instant do I think they'll go berserk on some stranger...

One I work with on a regular basis (my boss's dog), he's 9 years old, Sable GSD. GREAT with all kinds of humans, and if properly introduced, most dogs. Was two years old when his training stopped, not sure where he got to in it... and like I said, he's definitely not a ticking time bomb... and I know for a fact that his owners aren't keeping up with his training. 

So... not saying you are wrong... at all. Just wondering because I would think that if you have the proper foundations, you won't have an out of control dog.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> That is "not" directed at you the OP,


Haha... ok.  Too late, already replied, but ok.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Taggart said:


> They prefer caterpillars.
> These dogs act by command only.
> North Korea video shows dogs attacking South Korea... | Stuff.co.nz


LOL yeah I got "NO" plans on going to North Korea, so carry on.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/8521803/North-Koreas-bizarre-dog-attack-video

OMG! Do they "train" K9 dogs the same way? Must make for a light case load for the courts!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> They prefer caterpillars.
> These dogs act by command only.
> North Korea video shows dogs attacking South Korea... | Stuff.co.nz


So now you know how the N. Koreans train their military dogs? Interesting. How did you come by this information?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

To the OP.

IMHO,here is no risk in beginning bitework with a dog and not completing it to trial level or full blown PPD status, as long as the foundation work is done in prey drive. It's all a fun game to the dog at that point, and it's not fighting for it's life. It's just playing with the decoy.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

David Winners said:


> To the OP.
> 
> IMHO,here is no risk in beginning bitework with a dog and not completing it to trial level or full blown PPD status, as long as the foundation work is done in prey drive. It's all a fun game to the dog at that point, and it's not fighting for it's life. It's just playing with the decoy.


100%:thumbup:


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

David Winners said:


> To the OP.
> 
> IMHO,here is no risk in beginning bitework with a dog and not completing it to trial level or full blown PPD status, as long as the foundation work is done in prey drive. It's all a fun game to the dog at that point, and it's not fighting for it's life. It's just playing with the decoy.


Thanks.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

bill said:


> 100%:thumbup:


Yep so now we know ...the rest of the story!


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

When I was talking with the trainer that I am working with, even for a dog to really get to where they will do a "bark and hold", as far as it goes in bitework, the reward for barking and being offensive toward the "threat" of the decoy is the actual bite. It builds up their confidence in a way that is pretty remarkable honestly. I plan on building my new puppy up for sport, but my older female didn't give a lick about playing a game with the decoy. She's 100% business and I have little doubt in my mind if I lost the end of that leash, there's a high likelihood she wouldn't hold the bite on the sleeve like she generally does. It could be just me being a touch paranoid, however, there's no one she loves to run after more than the trainer lol. 

I think a lot of people like the idea of having a dog who will come to their aid, something very movie scene like, but they don't realize all the training, time, money, etc that goes into it, and how the dog as an individual plays in as much as the commitment to the dog goes if you pursue the training, since during that process even with great obedience you could still have a mistake. Even the best dogs have their days lol. All those K9s who come into the clinic where I work always have the leather muzzles on. Not because the dogs are at the end of the leash straining for us, but because when out in public if the dog decides for some reason to lash out, they'd be liable. 

Always makes me think of the time we had a K9 from one of the nearby departments staying with us after he had some really extensive GDV surgery (we had to resect part of his stomach due to it being without circulation so long). The dog was woken up with a basket muzzle and plastic e-collar on. The handler came every 4 hours when we did vitals and such so that he could handle the dog. Under no circumstances did he want us to do anything without him, especially take the muzzle off. One of the ER vets I worked with asked me to take his muzzle off and offer him food about 2 hours before the handler was due. I told her no because we had been asked specifically not to do it, and that I would not risk the safety of myself or my co-workers (even if this dog hadn't shown any aggressive behavior toward us). Long story short, she found another girl who did do as asked and the officer hit the ceiling when he came in and heard about it/saw the dog without the muzzle. The stories I could tell about that certain vet and her belief in knowing how to deal with dogs lol...

But yeah. Tangent lol. The sport is fun, I won't lie. I love going out and working with my dogs/watching the decoy with every dog he is working with (as each require different motivation/drives/etc). It gets addictive lol. But having a true PPD isn't what most people really want.  I know it wasn't really my aim.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> IMHO,here is no risk in beginning bitework with a dog and not completing it to trial level or full blown PPD status, as long as the foundation work is done in prey drive. It's all a fun game to the dog at that point, and it's not fighting for it's life. It's just playing with the decoy.


That is where the trouble starts, because one day young handler would start looking for trouble in order to prove to himself that his dog is a good protective and obedient dog. This is simply funny for me: 



Do you really believe that the attacker would play Schutzhund games with your dog? If your dog protects you like that - he would be stabbed, the attacker will cut his belly open in a split second. Your dog should bite only at the back (buttocks and legs) because he is exposing himself too badly to the knife or a gun by confronting. That is within the short distance. If the distance allows your dog should hit the attacker with his chest from the front or from the back knocking him down and going right to the throat. You would never find these videos, they are illegal. Instead - humdreds of hours of a cheap bull for fools, for them to "feel protected" if they have trained their dog like that. I hate them, all these popular protection classes and trainers, videos and such, because not even a iota of truth in them, nothing comes out of it, but blood and tears, bitten children of your neighbours. But, if it was some innocent drunkard, what, his blood wasn't red or he feels less pain than a child? Ask Animal Control how many of these PP dogs have they shot. I see it as my task - to disencourage, especially if it is a young person, to train your dog to become agressive. If there is any villain - he would shoot you first, and your dog second. An average robber wouldn't bother himself with a big dog. It is better to think how you can protect your dog from a madman.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> That is where the trouble starts, because one day young handler would start looking for trouble in order to prove to himself that his dog is a good protective and obedient dog. This is simply funny for me: Training Personal Protection Dogs To Protect Themselves! (K9-1.com) - YouTube
> Do you really believe that the attacker would play Schutzhund games with your dog? If your dog protects you like that - he would be stabbed, the attacker will cut his belly open in a split second. Your dog should bite only at the back (buttocks and legs) because he is exposing himself too badly to the knife or a gun by confronting. That is within the short distance. If the distance allows your dog should hit the attacker with his chest from the front or from the back knocking him down and going right to the throat. You would never find these videos, they are illegal. Instead - humdreds of hours of a cheap bull for fools, for them to "feel protected" if they have trained their dog like that. I hate them, all these popular protection classes and trainers, videos and such, because not even a iota of truth in them, nothing comes out of it, but blood and tears, bitten children of your neighbours. But, if it was some innocent drunkard, what, his blood wasn't red or he feels less pain than a child? Ask Animal Control how many of these PP dogs have they shot. I see it as my task - to disencourage, especially if it is a young person, to train your dog to become agressive. If there is any villain - he would shoot you first, and your dog second. An average robber wouldn't bother himself with a big dog. It is better to think how you can protect your dog from a madman.


There is no aggression involved in prey work, which is what I was talking about. You can train an aggressive looking bark in prey. No need for the dog to bite.

I want to know how many life or death situations you have been in where you sent your dog to stop a bad guy. I said stop, not kill.

I have been in exactly 12.

You first say a dog should only go for leg bites from the rear, then say it should jam itself by chest hitting the assailant. Which is it? Yes, dogs can get stabbed. So can handlers. You work as a team. Guy has a knife out, out the dog and shoot the guy. You can "what if" all day. People who have been on the street and outside the wire train dogs for these jobs. 

So, all the SF trainers have it wrong, and they should take your advice on how a dog should take a guy down? Nobody in the real dog world trains dogs for killing. It's very counterproductive. If I want the guy dead, I have firearms for that, and I don't have to risk my dog.

Your post had nothing to do with mine, so I have no idea why you quoted me. Somebody looking for trouble isn't going to train in prey and make it all a fun game of tug for the dog.


Sorry everyone, I can't seem to stop myself LOL

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Lol


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The more times I read it, the more I have to say 

It's like passing a car wreck on the highway...


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

I have never had a PPD dog so what I'm saying might be complete bull. I would think there has to be a difference in what the OP is asking about and a military style PPD dog. They were asking about a dog that will protect them. From what I gather they are not talking about in the military out in the field, that they are a diamond dealer with a briefcase with a few mill in diamonds handcuffed to their wrist or an ambassadors. 

I'm sure there are certain protocols that a military or serious PPD dog needs to follow but the average person that is going to just want to be protected by a dog probably won't need that. The people they need protection against are not navy seals they are common thugs who will probably see a GSD running at them and crap themselves as opposed to thinking about the best way to neutralize the threat. 

I just think there has to be some in between in a dog that is trained to protect you against every day civilian threats and one that is battlefield ready to go against trained warriors or serious high-level planned out attacks/thieves.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> That is where the trouble starts, because one day young handler would start looking for trouble in order to prove to himself that his dog is a good protective and obedient dog. This is simply funny for me: Training Personal Protection Dogs To Protect Themselves! (K9-1.com) - YouTube
> Do you really believe that the attacker would play Schutzhund games with your dog? If your dog protects you like that - he would be stabbed, the attacker will cut his belly open in a split second. Your dog should bite only at the back (buttocks and legs) because he is exposing himself too badly to the knife or a gun by confronting. That is within the short distance. If the distance allows your dog should hit the attacker with his chest from the front or from the back knocking him down and going right to the throat. You would never find these videos, they are illegal. Instead - humdreds of hours of a cheap bull for fools, for them to "feel protected" if they have trained their dog like that. I hate them, all these popular protection classes and trainers, videos and such, because not even a iota of truth in them, nothing comes out of it, but blood and tears, bitten children of your neighbours. But, if it was some innocent drunkard, what, his blood wasn't red or he feels less pain than a child? Ask Animal Control how many of these PP dogs have they shot. I see it as my task - to disencourage, especially if it is a young person, to train your dog to become agressive. If there is any villain - he would shoot you first, and your dog second. An average robber wouldn't bother himself with a big dog. It is better to think how you can protect your dog from a madman.


 
You are capable of stringing endless nonsensical information together that exposes your lack of knowledge and understanding of how to train dogs. I usually just skip what you write because it always manages to be wrong in so many ways.

I sincerely hope no one takes your posts seriously.

Its not hard to train a PPD if the dog has what it takes, you can take it as far as you want. Its not the rocket science laden liability many on here that have never had or trained such a dog make it out to be.

This is really not the forum to find realistic info on PPD training (with the exception of a few posters).


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

David Winners said:


> The more times I read it, the more I have to say
> 
> It's like passing a car wreck on the highway...


why pass by? just pull over and start recording lol


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah ppd dogs that have "it" are easy to train vs sport dogs. My 11 month old dog has more training on him than most "executive proteckshun" dogs that are being hawked for 40k plus.

The good ones are super chill at home great with people and strangers but when activated the switch flips and they bite with hate and anger.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> There is no aggression involved in prey work,


You are talking about Schutz sports. Of course, there is no aggression involved in prey work. The dog experiences only positive emotions, he must hold like a tick, and the decoy may use a peculiar method to distract him: he might leave the bat and stroke the dog on his head with his right hand "Good boy!" The bat strokes are for distraction, not for causing pain, because everything is a game.
Unlike Schutzhund training PP training drives negative emotions out of the dog, a real anger, because the dog's experiencing a real pain, and the PP decoy's bat is not that rather soft flip used in Schutzhund, which reminds more of a piece of a rubber hose than a real weapon.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You can hammer a dog with a clatter stick or accessories in prey if its a good dog and they just fight harder if taught thats what relieves pressure. They'll get angry.. Many ppd dogs dont have a true fight drive by military standards but then again many patrol dogs out there biting people dont either. The ones with edge dont come off easy.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Wow! Okay I tried the not feeding for three days! Lost three fingers! Tried the buttocks bite" won't be able too sit for a month! Forget the throat thing!
Lol seriously tho.I trained my first p.p.d. to go for the arm with the weapon! Did this by using two hidden sleeves! 
P.s. don't. Pick up hitchhiker on side of road! Bill


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> many patrol dogs out there biting people


What patrol dogs out there biting people, where?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

OP - Develope a strong relationship with your new dog. Take it training classes, your instructor can guide you regarding any future plans with training your dog. You may not create a dog that can jump a person and ripe out their windpipe, but you'll create a loyal, well trained dog that will be your partner for this rest of it's life.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Lilie said:


> OP - Develope a strong relationship with your new dog. Take it training classes, your instructor can guide you regarding any future plans with training your dog. You may not create a dog that can jump a person and ripe out their windpipe, but you'll create a loyal, well trained dog that will be your partner for this rest of it's life.





Thanks.  and that's what I want. Even though she isn't extremely well trained, my current older dog has that loyalty, and I know she'll try and deter anyone, even if she won't actually defend if it comes down to it. And the more I think about it, that's the kind of relationship I want with this new puppy, with better training and socialization. 


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Serbrider said:


> Thanks.  and that's what I want. Even though she isn't extremely well trained, my current older dog has that loyalty, and I know she'll try and deter anyone, even if she won't actually defend if it comes down to it. And the more I think about it, that's the kind of relationship I want with this new puppy, with better training and socialization.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


We all learn from our previous dogs!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> What patrol dogs out there biting people, where?


In my country which you claim to know so much about when it comes to dogs


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Lilie said:


> We all learn from our previous dogs!



Well, I was 12 when I got her... Didn't know a whole lot.  and she's such a gosh darn smart and independent dog too. Would figure out how to escape any backyard fence... Just so she could sit in front of the gate or at the front door. 

Wish I had known more when I got her, and my dad didn't do all of the negative overly dominant reinforcement, because she could have been AWESOME. Well, the past is the past, and I wouldn't trade her for all the money in the world, anti-social and stubborn as she is. 


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

OP-- I am of the belief that dogs don't need to be "trained" to protect or deter...it's just what they've done since the dawn of time. 

My first shepherd, Metro, was a rescue. Who knows what kind of life he lived before us (judging from how we got him, I am assuming some unsuspecting person tied him to a pole and walked into a store somewhere, and the "rescuer" thought he was abandoned...) but he bonded to us tightly, me in particular because we literally spent all day together as he went to work with me daily. 

One morning before work I stopped at a 7-11 for coffee and parked right in front of the doors. On the way out a man much larger than myself blocked the entrance/exit and wouldn't let me out. Leering and making off sided comments. Metro noticed that I was very uncomfortable and trying to get around the guy, and went BERSERK barking and lunging against the windshield of my car causing it to rock all over the place. The man immediately noticed and apologized and moved out of my way. 

There were two or three other incidences where we were walking at night and I was in la-la land not paying attention. I would feel the leash go tense and the dog would stop moving, only to look up and see someone walking towards me...the hair would raise on my neck and I would notice the dog was already in a tense stand off with the man approaching. The man would cross the street and wouldn't look back. 

This dog could be approached by ANYONE. Through the years we had MANY people cross the street to pet him, coo over him, and generally discuss what a great dog he was. If you had ill intentions however, he knew it and you weren't going to get close to us. 

One night while my husband was out working patrol, I was woken up to a low long growl. Metro was a grumbler. The dog was NEVER quiet...always moaning, groaning, grumbling or talking about something. This growl made my blood run cold. I went to the living to see what he was growling out and as soon as I walked out, I heard the door knob jiggle and twist. Someone was trying to open my door. The menacing growl got louder and his body posture got tighter and lower. I texted my husband (whose division bordered our street) and he flew over to clear our back yard. The dog settled well before my husband made it to our house, the only thing I can figure was the dog managed to growl loud enough. 

Dogs know. They just do. There was also a time where the dog knew I had a situation under control and didn't need back up, so he laid on the couch, much to my amusement. I was selling a couch on craigslist. I had a man coming to buy it, but he was three hours late. When another buyer offered to come get it, I said sure. The original buyer showed up after I had already sold the couch and proceeded to stand on my door step and scream obscenities at me, scaring my MIL and my children. I stood there, yelled back, called 911 and gave a full description to the operator, all while this man was standing there. I wasn't frightened. I was angry. My dog knew that momma bear was good to go, and didn't bother himself any.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

David Taggart said:


> reminds more of a piece of a rubber hose than a real weapon.


If you don't think that a rubber hose can be a weapon, then you've obviously never been hit with one.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> You are talking about Schutz sports. Of course, there is no aggression involved in prey work. The dog experiences only positive emotions, he must hold like a tick, and the decoy may use a peculiar method to distract him: he might leave the bat and stroke the dog on his head with his right hand "Good boy!" The bat strokes are for distraction, not for causing pain, because everything is a game.
> Unlike Schutzhund training PP training drives negative emotions out of the dog, a real anger, because the dog's experiencing a real pain, and the PP decoy's bat is not that rather soft flip used in Schutzhund, which reminds more of a piece of a rubber hose than a real weapon.


I am talking about the foundation of bitework that most young dogs go through at clubs before being worked in defensive drive. It doesn't involve being pitted against boarded dogs, suffocation, rubber hoses, Area 51 or aluminum foil. It involves developing drives and barking, teaching behaviors and targeting, and showing the dog the rules of the game.

After such training, the dog is not any more defensive of people than when it started. My point being that, IMO, this type of training does not make a dog more likely to bite a person outside of the game that is training.

Training real patrol dogs bitework is incredibly simple. You challenge them and either they fight or they don't. They have the nerves and the drive to fight a man, or they are single purpose dogs. That training is about control and outing (sometimes). Adding pain to it is just to test the dog. IMO, there is no reason to continue any painful work once the dog has shown it will hang in there for the long haul. Some people train for targeting the weapon arm, which adds a bit of training, but for the most part, it's pretty simple. It's about the dog.


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