# Beginning to train in protection, is he capable?



## Leo0811

Hello,

My male GSD is almost a year old and I have been working with a trainer on obedience for a few months now. Leo's very friendly, he's been socialized really well with kids, adults and other dogs. 

We started basic protection training last weekend. Initially, the trainer brought out the rope with some bite material on it. Leo was pawing at it and after about a minute realized he's supposed to bite it, and started doing so. Then he graduated to a couple different bite pillows, and he had a blast (no sleeve yet). He barked a few times and growled a little while playing tug. The trainer wanted to evaluate Leo's defensive drive... He said he has high prey drive and he loves the game, but doesn't have very much defensive drive. However, thinks with enough training we can get him to the point where he would bite on command.

In your opinion, do you think a dog that is naturally friendly and doesn't come with a natural 'defensive hair-trigger' could successfully be used for protection?

Thank you in advance!


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## Blitzkrieg1

He is only one I would be a very careful how much defense you use in the bitework. If he did all that prey work the first session I would be very happy. Make sure the trainer knows what he is doing..


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## boomer11

i was under the assumption that dogs who growl or make noises during tug is stressed and isnt calm.


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## MadLab

> i was under the assumption that dogs who growl or make noises during tug is stressed and isnt calm.


If you make a dog fight for the tug or slap it when it's on there then it will growl. Even my dog will growl when he is putting extra effort into his spring pole.


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## Merciel

boomer11 said:


> i was under the assumption that dogs who growl or make noises during tug is stressed and isnt calm.


Maybe it depends how you define "stressed"?

For sure I don't know much about protection work, but a lot of dogs I've played Tug with will growl when they're revved up and really into it. These aren't bitework-trained dogs, either, they're mostly either agility dogs (by which I overwhelmingly mean "border collies") or pet dogs.

It's actually such a distinct pattern that I can envision it in my mind right now: front feet planted, back arched, growl, head jerk, head jerk.

They're not "calm" but not what I would consider anxious or negatively stressed, either -- more just really into the game and determined to win.

Maybe it's different with bitework dogs, though, I wouldn't know.


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## Liesje

By "used for protection" do you mean titling in Schutzhund or used as a Personal Protection Dog? 

Ideally you want a balance of prey and defense, but no dog is perfect. The person I trained with initially believed in working a dog in his primary drive, not letting it way out of hand but if a dog works more naturally in prey or defense, using that to our advantage and not trying to make a dog into something he's not. At the same time, in training a good helper can bring out more prey or more defense and bring as much balance to the bitework as possible.

As far as a "hair trigger", I prioritize threshold over defense drive. My dogs are my house companions and they do a lot of other training and sports. I take them on road trips and family vacations. I *need* a dog with an appropriate threshold for protection, not a dog that wants to bite anything that moves within 20 feet of me, but a dog that understands a real threat and will react instinctively and be powerful and convincing. I don't need a dog that sounds off at every person or dog. I don't necessarily feel that a higher level of social aggression and/or a lower threshold is bad, it's just not what I personally need given my lifestyle and how my dogs interact with my family and friends.


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## Liesje

boomer11 said:


> i was under the assumption that dogs who growl or make noises during tug is stressed and isnt calm.


I think....yes and no. I think this depends on the full picture. Just the growl...who knows? I have a pit bull mix I've done a few protection sessions with and she's just the most insanely vocal dog I've owned. She growls ALL the time, even just playing around. She does flyball as well and is barking and growling as she is running down the lane. Given the overall picture and her breed, the growling while she is doing bitework isn't necessarily a bad thing. We can tell if she's feeling confident or not and whether her bite is calm or not without only interpreting the growling. I would say that often if a GSD is really growly on a bite it's not good but usually there are plenty of other signs, like the bite is chewy and shifting around, the dog is moving his body to avoid stick hits, stuff like that. Read the whole dog and the whole context of what is happening.


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## Leo0811

Thank you all for your replies! 

Liesje, I agree 100% with what you're saying. I want a dog that will remain social and friendy, that I can take places without him being a liability. I guess my definition of protection is that if I'm on a walk with him and someone jumps out of nowhere and tries to hurt me, that Leo will protect me instead of running off or not knowing what to do.


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## boomer11

MadLab said:


> If you make a dog fight for the tug or slap it when it's on there then it will growl. Even my dog will growl when he is putting extra effort into his spring pole.


in my experience thats not true. i owned a nervy shepherd and when he was tugging if i put a lot of pressure on him physically and mentally he will growl slightly but will out when told to. i did the same thing to a super stable shepherd and no matter how much pressure i put on him he just shook the rag and kept on biting. never a sound. i use to think growling while tugging was cool because it meant my dog was enjoying the fight but then i read/watched (i think on the leerburg video) that a dog who growls is stressed and too much pressure was put on it.


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## mycobraracr

boomer11 said:


> i was under the assumption that dogs who growl or make noises during tug is stressed and isnt calm.


 
As Liesje said, you have to look at the whole picture. You can't just say oh well the dog made noise, it's stressed out. Doesn't work that way. 

OP- None of us can say weather your dog is capable or not without seeing the dog. Ideally, the drives would be a bit more balanced, but depending on the dogs genetics, he could change with age. So if you trust your trainer and helper then stick to their plan. I may have missed it, but what are you training for? IPO? Since it's in the IPO section I would assume so but...


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## Baillif

The dog shouldn't be evaluated for defensive drive at that age. German shepherds in particular tend to develop their defensive drives at a year and a half or older. When it comes to bitework they tend to stay "babies" a little longer than Malinois. He should be worked in prey or not at all for now.


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## MadLab

Madlab


> If you make a dog fight for the tug or slap it when it's on there then it will growl. Even my dog will growl when he is putting extra effort into his spring pole.


Boomer


> in my experience thats not true. i owned a nervy shepherd and when he was tugging if i put a lot of pressure on him physically and mentally he will growl slightly but will out when told to. i did the same thing to a super stable shepherd and no matter how much pressure i put on him he just shook the rag and kept on biting. never a sound. (i think on the leerburg video) that a dog who growls is stressed and too much pressure was put on it.


2 dogs, and 2 different responses. 

The other day my dog was biting the branch of a tree. Again growling and jerking on the branch. He was standing on his back legs and locked on with his mouth. No pressure being put on him or stress, he just wanted to break that branch. 

I think it is good to control the growling if playing tug. I know how to get my dog growling and fighting the tug but i also know how to calm him down and relax while locked on. 

I also think there are many different growls as there are different barks with them all meaning different things for different dogs at different times so we can't say a growl means this or a dog barking means that unless we can actually see it in action and know the dog.


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## onyx'girl

Baillif said:


> *The dog shouldn't be evaluated for defensive drive at that age*. German shepherds in particular tend to develop their defensive drives at a year and a half or older. When it comes to bitework they tend to stay "babies" a little longer than Malinois. *He should be worked in prey or not at all for now.*


I agree with this, but some GSD's are more defensive than prey...and it is best to tap into the prey at a young age so you can balance out the drives. 
The dog needs to build confidence in the work first, the pressure is added over time. Pressure can mean a facial expression from the decoy/helper. 
Having a protection trained dog comes with time, it isn't something a young immature dog handles instinctively. If Leo has *it* IT will be there when he's older. Work on his confidence and your bond with him for now.


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## hunterisgreat

boomer11 said:


> i was under the assumption that dogs who growl or make noises during tug is stressed and isnt calm.


Its the complete picture you're seeing that tells you the dog's stress level, not just one thing. If a dog is growling, but actively pushing hard into the helper, countering every challenge he presents, this isn't a stressed dog, its one that has some fight in it and knows what to do with it/how to beat the helper.

Overall, people tend to think "A always means B", and this is rarely the case in dog training... you have to look at the whole picture.


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## Chip Blasiole

Do you want a dog protection trained because you want a dog that will really protect when called on to do so, do you want a threat dog that will bark at people when commanded, but will not actually protect, or do you just want to learn and have some fun with your dog? My guess is that your dog probably doesn't have the genetics to be a true protection dog, but you never know. Do you want to put up his pedigree? I agree 12 months is too young to try to push a dog into defense, unless he is an exceptionably strong dog. A PP dog with the correct genetics doesn't need that much training. By doing a lot of prey work at this age, you are to a large degree, teaching him the bitework is a game. That is fine for sport, but can create problems with PP training unless you have a very good dog. At least you know he will bite a prey object. You might ask the trainer what he thinks of your dog's grip and if he looks stressed or more in drive/confident when biting. Then you might think of waiting until he is about 18 months old and go back to protection training. Of course, the trainer can't make as much money that way. If you were going to try to title your dog, I would recommend continuing the prey work if the trainer knows what he is doing. But it is not neccessary for PP and if the dog is lacking in other forms of aggression than prey, you are working against yourself.


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## Baillif

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with this, but some GSD's are more defensive than prey...and it is best to tap into the prey at a young age so you can balance out the drives.
> The dog needs to build confidence in the work first, the pressure is added over time. Pressure can mean a facial expression from the decoy/helper.
> Having a protection trained dog comes with time, it isn't something a young immature dog handles instinctively. If Leo has *it* IT will be there when he's older. Work on his confidence and your bond with him for now.


Yeah pretty much this.


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## Wolfgeist

mycobraracr said:


> As Liesje said, you have to look at the whole picture. You can't just say oh well the dog made noise, it's stressed out. Doesn't work that way.


:thumbup:

My male is vocal on the tug, growly, and I can assure you he's not stressed. He is loudest when we are goofing off and playing tug on the floor in our home. He's a growly boy. I agree, you have to look at the whole picture and look at other things along with the vocal-ness.


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## onyx'girl

Also depends on the dogs thresholds


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## boomer11

Chip Blasiole said:


> Do you want a dog protection trained because you want a dog that will really protect when called on to do so, do you want a threat dog that will bark at people when commanded, but will not actually protect, or do you just want to learn and have some fun with your dog? My guess is that your dog probably doesn't have the genetics to be a true protection dog, but you never know. Do you want to put up his pedigree? I agree 12 months is too young to try to push a dog into defense, unless he is an exceptionably strong dog. A PP dog with the correct genetics doesn't need that much training. By doing a lot of prey work at this age, you are to a large degree, teaching him the bitework is a game. That is fine for sport, but can create problems with PP training unless you have a very good dog. At least you know he will bite a prey object. You might ask the trainer what he thinks of your dog's grip and if he looks stressed or more in drive/confident when biting. Then you might think of waiting until he is about 18 months old and go back to protection training. Of course, the trainer can't make as much money that way. If you were going to try to title your dog, I would recommend continuing the prey work if the trainer knows what he is doing. But it is not neccessary for PP and if the dog is lacking in other forms of aggression than prey, you are working against yourself.


what are the things that you look for to see if a dog is capable of personal protection?


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## hunterisgreat

boomer11 said:


> what are the things that you look for to see if a dog is capable of personal protection?


Lots of different words are used, but generally you want an aloof dog who does not make friends easily/seek attention from strangers. You want a dog that when he perceives a real threat, he *wants* to punish and dominate it, and any pain or increased pressure serves to further increase rather than diminish the dogs response. Basically, the main character from any machismo action movie (300, Gladiator, Braveheart, etc etc)


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## Baillif

From what I understand you really want to be looking at proven pedigrees that have a proven history of fight drive. Basically you want a dog that when push comes to shove and its given the option to fight a man or run away when its under a real threat it chooses to fight. A large part of this is going to be genetic and a large part of it will be training related, but it is something you would have to test for in an adult dog, you wouldn't know 100% by checking out a puppy. Even if the puppy had it genetically it might never reach that potential without proper training.

I'm pretty sure given training though you could probably get good dogs so well trained in prey they would go in for the fight and as long as they weren't really hammered hard they would press that fight out of prey drive. Most people when being attacked and bitten hard by a dog are going to be thinking "GTFO" not "I'm going to fight this dog." They would be suitable against all but the most determined attacker and in that case tbh you're better off with a gun.

David Winners would probably be the guy to ask since he's worked MWD's.


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## boomer11

so basically you cant really know unless you get a trainer to put some real pressure on a mature dog? my pup is the definition of aloof but im not sure that means he's capable? 

also are you saying that unless the dog is world class, it cant be a true pp dog and get schutzhund titles? if a dog is trained in personal protection first where intense pressure is put on it and the decoy goes towards the dog instead of running away; when the dog does schutzund, wouldnt it excel since its basically now a walk in the park for the dog?


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## Baillif

There is a difference between a sport dog and a true PP dog. You don't really want to put a sport dog into a situation where he thinks he is fighting for his life as that could ruin a sport dog. Theoretically though yes a true PP dog would also be able to do the sport. If your pup has good prey drive now he can probably do fine in the sport. A good decoy is going to want to work him with some element of defense at some point to get intensity, but its sort of a dance of pushing the dogs limits and backing off and letting the dog win. Your dog isn't going to get into a real fight with a sport decoy. The decoy will try to run him off the field maybe even break a clatter stick over his face or something like that but hes not gonna get hit with a pole or punched full on in the face.


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## Baillif

Mondioring for example the decoy isn't supposed to strike the dog. He can lay a barrage and hit a dog that way which is why some trainers train the dog to fight dirty if someone lays barrage in the dogs path and to go for a wrist hit where the protection of the suits isn't that great. It discourages that kind of thing.


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## onyx'girl

> The decoy will try to run him off the field maybe even break a clatter stick over his face or something like that but hes not gonna get hit with a pole or punched full on in the face


May get stepped on by helper wearing cleats


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## boomer11

Line-breeding for the progency of Ruger Van Den Heuvel and Zanet Jipo-Me

how can you tell by looking at a pedigree if a dog has high fight drive? i dont know much but looking at my dogs pedigree he seems sporty. 

if a dog is first trained in pp where he is involved in some real fights, wouldnt he then be able to transition into schutzhund rather seamlessly because there not only are the helpers not wanting to fight, they act weak and are running. or am i missing something important?


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## Baillif

There are many many elements to schutzhund other than fighting a decoy but yeah he should have that part down. Although for some dog sports the types of bites grips and fighting styles they encourage wouldn't necessarily be the best for a PP dog. You wouldn't necessarily want your PP dog to bite deep and hold for example, you would want it going for weapon hands and doing whatever it took to win, just biting and holding on is probably not going to be a part of that. I'm not entirely sure they are compatible. Things that would prevent a dog from losing points in sport might end up costing the dog its life in a real fight.

I haven't ever tried to buy a true PP dog so I'm not the person to ask. David would probably know though. Ask him. I do know there are a ton of shady breeders out there claiming they are breeding PP dogs so you definitely want to make sure you do your research to make sure it's on the up and up.


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## Baillif

Long story short I think the general answer you're going to get is this. Why do you want a personal protection dog? If you really need one you shouldn't be getting it as a puppy and training it yourself, you should be buying a proven dog and that would be rather expensive (think more expensive than a nice car). You could buy a 50 caliber barrett rifle for less than a good PPD and take out helicopters with it. Your PPDs cant take out helicopters.

If you are wanting to train for sport there are tons of good breeders out there with proud sporting lines and even then if you are just starting out in the sport of your choice you need to learn that sport and wouldn't necessarily want to spend 2k or so on a potentially great dog you aren't completely sure how to handle yet.


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## boomer11

are you even reading any of my posts or are you just rambling? i dont need a puppy to buy. i just posted the pedigree of my pup above. i didnt say anything about wanting a pp dog. i was just asking what makes a dog capable and how it translates to schutzhund. and how can you tell by looking at pedigree how much fight a dog has? but if my dog is capable why wouldnt i try it instead of buying a proven trained dog? thats like telling people to go buy a sch3 dog intead of a puppy with high prey drive. its the journey of achieving things with your dog thats fun. 

no i dont want a 50 cal rifle to shoot down helicopters. lol what the heck?


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## David Taggart

:hug:


> Your dog doesn't recognize a human as a prey. The best and the safest age to introduce your puppy to protection is 3-4 months old. Every dog lives through a puppyhood, adolescence and becomes and adult. His predatory instinct which is mainly used in protection training ( a decoy is a dangerous beast for the dog) has three stages accordingly: 1) a puppy would try catching anything that moves; 2) a young dog practices attacking his favourite prey, he is brave in attacking a new type of prey in order to try it, and also learns about dangerous prey; 3) an adult dog would ignore any other prey than he knows for the reasons of energy saving. Schz fully trained dogs would refuse to recognize human as a prey without the suit. But, the majority of these dogs complete their trainin only when they are 3 years old and they must be muzzled anywhere in public before then. There are hundeds of so called "trainers in protection" pretty much capable of causing a psychological damage to your dog, be very careful. And me, I don't recomend to continue at all. Unfortunately, there are very few who want to achieve something in Schz sports, but many who want "to train protection". Please, remember, that semi-trained dogs become dangerous. ..


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## Baillif

You're not reading them either. You can't just look at the pedigree to see how much fight a dog will have. You can look at the pedigree and if there are proven PPD dogs in the lines from both sire and bitch you can assume you have potential, but you can't test a fight drive until you have an adult dog that has been brought up to be a PPD dog. Some will wash out. 

You don't seem to be getting the gist of what I'm telling you though. You bring them up for the sport or for PPD from the very start. They can either do it or they cant. Training for the sport for podium or PPD for actual protection requires a lifestyle commitment with the dog. It isn't done casually if it is to be done well. Even if you had the puppy that had the genetics for it I'm going to assume by the questions you're asking you don't know what you are doing, and in that case the training and time spent with a decoy that could teach you or work with the dog to bring it out of them would end up costing about as much as that rifle to shoot down helicopters.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't learn about it study it or one day become the kind of trainer or decoy that can produce that sort of PPD or sport dog. Go for it if you really want it, by all means I'd encourage you and cheer you on, but it is really an art, and it requires study and hard work and a good deal of money.


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## hunterisgreat

You know it when you see it in a mature dog. 100% of folks who have worked my male know he will hurt them for real. He is also a mediocre sport dog. You get the clear impression you could hit him with a 2x4 and it would only make him pissed

Hard to explain. Most dogs you know will be unsettled by pressure. Others are like brad Pitt in snatch "so that's the kinda fight its gonna be..."


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## Baillif

The pup looks like he has tons of sport potential from what you posted. Nice pedigree. That said it still doesn't mean crap without proper training. Go see what you can do with him.


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## hunterisgreat

boomer11 said:


> Line-breeding for the progency of Ruger Van Den Heuvel and Zanet Jipo-Me
> 
> how can you tell by looking at a pedigree if a dog has high fight drive? i dont know much but looking at my dogs pedigree he seems sporty.
> 
> if a dog is first trained in pp where he is involved in some real fights, wouldnt he then be able to transition into schutzhund rather seamlessly because there not only are the helpers not wanting to fight, they act weak and are running. or am i missing something important?


Not really. PPD is like a Marine fighting in Fallujah where Schutzhund is like a karate tournament. Totally different levels of stress


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## Baillif

That's a really good way to put it. Technique is more or less going out the window the dog goes entirely off instinct muscle memory probably won't be as likely to take orders and probably has to be choked off the bite cause it won't want to out


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## boomer11

hunterisgreat said:


> You know it when you see it in a mature dog. 100% of folks who have worked my male know he will hurt them for real. He is also a mediocre sport dog. You get the clear impression you could hit him with a 2x4 and it would only make him pissed
> 
> Hard to explain. Most dogs you know will be unsettled by pressure. Others are like brad Pitt in snatch "so that's the kinda fight its gonna be..."


hahah i can tell you watch lots of movies by your many references. so can most dogs who are capable of pp and are trained in pp then transition into schutzhund and get titles or no?


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## onyx'girl

Schutzhund is based in obedience....all three phases are about control and obedience. The bitework is very minimal and the pressure applied in a trial is also minimal. 

So a dog that is trained as a PP must have control to title in IPO. And out.


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## Baillif

With the right training probably. The training does diverge fairly quickly, and again there is way more to those protection sports than decoy work. On the flip side though most dogs that are titled in sports can't do pp work.


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## mycobraracr

boomer11 said:


> so can most dogs who are capable of pp and are trained in pp then transition into schutzhund and get titles or no?


 

IMO not really. They may be able to achieve titles, but it wont be pretty as well as not safe for the helper. Of course there are exceptions to every rule though. I can just tell you from the dogs we do muzzle work/titles with, they don't give that pretty focused heel. They are constantly scanning and looking at every person as a potential target. They really are like apples and oranges.


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## DaniFani

mycobraracr said:


> IMO not really. They may be able to achieve titles, but it wont be pretty as well as not safe for the helper. Of course there are exceptions to every rule though. I can just tell you from the dogs we do muzzle work/titles with, they don't give that pretty focused heel. *They are constantly scanning and looking at every person as a potential target. *They really are like apples and oranges.


Not really too much to contribute to this, as I am only a year into the sport and the few things I could/would say have already been said....but I just don't understand why people want/train for a dog as you described in bold....

Hunter your macho-movie-references and propensity for dramatic bad *** references when referring to your dogs always makes me laugh. We get it...your dog is your gladiator that would kill anything in it's path if you told it too...lol  I kid...kinda ;-)


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## David Winners

I would describe my working dog as assessing threats, not looking for potential targets. 99.9% of the people she comes across are neutral to her. She's not aching to fight. She's just ready, like a soldier should be.

She didn't start out that way, but she was far happier and a better partner once she figured out how to relax.


David Winners


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## Chip Blasiole

In most protection sports, you really only need a dog with good prey drive, because the dog is trained so repetitively, usually to a patterned scenario, he knows what to expect and is not really stressed in the bitework. For a dog that is going to be a police dog or personal protection dog, the dog needs to have a drive package that includes other forms of aggression beyond prey/predatory aggression. All dogs have a defensive drive as part of self preservation, but some forms of defense drive are strong and some are weak. Active/reactive defensive aggression is a strong, confident type of aggression where a dog will resort to strong biting as the first reaction to a perceived threat. This is a genetically determined trait. 
Then there is a passive defense reaction, which can be weak or strong. If it is strong passive defense reaction, the dog will respond to a perceived threat initially with threatening gestures such as aggressive barking or growling first and then will bite when a threat cannot be chased off. This reaction is likely due to some combination of genetics and socialization. If the dog is highly social by nature, or highly socialized, he will be somewhat inhibited to bite a person without equipment, but can be easily trained to do so.
A weak passive defense reaction is when a dog will use a lot of threatening gestures to scare off a perceived threat, but is not likely to bite unless forced to.
There are other things that contribute to aggression also such as frustration, dominance, rage and social aggression, the last two being rare.
So it is always an element of training combined with genetics, as to what the outcome will be. Trying to select the right pup for your needs depends on understanding what the parents' drive package is composed of, and if those traits are dominant, genetically speaking and passed onto their offspring. If selecting an adult, you have to test the dog properly and make an assessment. That is why top sport dogs do not always represent a more complete package of aggressive drives/elements. But some do, and they require exceptional trainers and decoys to read they and channel and reinforce their biting behaviors appropriately.


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## martemchik

boomer11 said:


> hahah i can tell you watch lots of movies by your many references. so can most dogs who are capable of pp and are trained in pp then transition into schutzhund and get titles or no?


I bet it would be able to. It wouldn't be flashy or perfect, but the dog would probably get the title. At the end of the day the sports we talk about are extremely nit picky and small little mistakes in obedience is where the dogs generally lose points.

Not sure if you've ever seen a Schutzhund trial, but points go down the toilet in obedience, where as in the protection phase the dogs tend not to lose as many points as one would think for making as big or even bigger mistakes than they did in the obedience phase.


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## martemchik

I've realized that most people that claim to want a PPD just want to know that their dog will do something if there is ever a threat. At the end of the day, 99% of us will never face a threat in the first place. I also know that my chances of facing a threat go way down just by having a GSD by my side as most criminals or potential threats won't want to test the guy walking down the street with a dog, they'd rather go for someone without a dog...just in case that dog is capable of doing something.

I think the biggest hump is that it takes almost 2 years of constant and PROPER training in order to figure this out about your dog. Most people don't want to put in that kind of investment. They want to go to training for eight weeks, or send their dog off for two weeks and then know if their dog will kill a human being if it needs to.

Unless you have the need for your prototypical movie PPD that patrols your compound and gets released to bite intruders, I don't get why anyone thinks their family pet needs basic bite training or protection training. It probably does more harm than good because it increases your legal liability if your dog ever does decide to bite someone, and the chances of a regular pet owner keeping up that training are very small. I personally think that the amount of work that goes into training that PPD, and keeping up the training, is not worth the protection that dog does provide. I also question the type of threats that someone expects to come up against that they're in such need of a protection dog. I mean...if you don't feel safe walking down the street of your neighborhood, its probably easier to move than to train a dog to take care of that fear.


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## Baillif

Plus its cheaper to buy that gun that can shoot down helicopters...just saying lol


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> I bet it would be able to. It wouldn't be flashy or perfect, but the dog would probably get the title.


I'd actually be willing to bet that _if the handler wanted,_ a lot of these dogs could do the flashy attention heel, etc.

Obedience is overwhelmingly about training. Pongu's problem is the opposite of what myco described -- he's constantly scanning his environment looking for (imaginary) threats that he can _flee_ from (such as deadly, dog-devouring ceiling fans... oh, how often those ceiling fans have terrorized him into NQs) -- but because I have sunk hundreds if not thousands of hours into heeling drills, he can do a pretty decent attention heel now and again.

Granted I have no experience training the type of dog who would make a good PPD, but I do have a whole lot of experience trying to get an environment-scanning maniac to do flashy obedience, and IME it's way WAY more about the handler's interest/determination than the dog.

So I think it's just that PPD trainers don't particularly want or need to work on precision heeling with their dogs. Which is totally fine, of course; that's just not what PP training is about. But I don't think the _dogs_ are incapable of it.


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## hunterisgreat

DaniFani said:


> Not really too much to contribute to this, as I am only a year into the sport and the few things I could/would say have already been said....but I just don't understand why people want/train for a dog as you described in bold....
> 
> Hunter your macho-movie-references and propensity for dramatic bad *** references when referring to your dogs always makes me laugh. We get it...your dog is your gladiator that would kill anything in it's path if you told it too...lol  I kid...kinda ;-)


My male is like the bold. He is always on guard, always scanning. Also, his heeling is ok at best lol. I didn't make him this way. He has always been that way


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## onyx'girl

Mine is the same. Doesn't make points in flashy obedience, but he rocks the C phase


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## martemchik

Merciel said:


> I'd actually be willing to bet that _if the handler wanted,_ a lot of these dogs could do the flashy attention heel, etc.
> 
> Obedience is overwhelmingly about training. Pongu's problem is the opposite of what myco described -- he's constantly scanning his environment looking for (imaginary) threats that he can _flee_ from (such as deadly, dog-devouring ceiling fans... oh, how often those ceiling fans have terrorized him into NQs) -- but because I have sunk hundreds if not thousands of hours into heeling drills, he can do a pretty decent attention heel now and again.
> 
> Granted I have no experience training the type of dog who would make a good PPD, but I do have a whole lot of experience trying to get an environment-scanning maniac to do flashy obedience, and IME it's way WAY more about the handler's interest/determination than the dog.
> 
> So I think it's just that PPD trainers don't particularly want or need to work on precision heeling with their dogs. Which is totally fine, of course; that's just not what PP training is about. But I don't think the _dogs_ are incapable of it.


I'm not just talking about flash in obedience though, its also big in the protection phase. Some things are just natural to dogs. Sure...if you spend hundreds if not thousands of hours working on something the dog might get it, but most people aren't going to want to do that...especially when it comes to a sport.

It's awesome to hear what you've done with your dog, and I completely understand how hard it is to do something like that with a dog that isn't cut out for it. But at the end of the day...you did it for yourself and not really for the dog. Most Schutzhund people are trying to prove what their dogs are capable of, not what they as a handler are capable of. They'd rather have a dog that does things after 10 hours of work rather than 100. If they're being 100% truthful to themselves (and possibly a breeding program), that will hopefully show them that the dog should be bred or shouldn't. Hopefully...its not about earning the title...its about learning everything you can about that particular dog on the way to a title.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> Most Schutzhund people are trying to prove what their dogs are capable of, not what they as a handler are capable of.


I guess I don't really separate the two that much. If the dog has the potential to excel (and IMO, most do, a lot more than we sometimes give them credit for), then my view is that it is your role as the handler to do whatever it takes to bring out that potential. It's a team sport.

Anyway, I totally agree that different dogs will pick things up at different rates, and that there are some for whom heeling comes more easily, and others for whom beating the crap out of a decoy comes more naturally (and is more fun!).

I just don't want anybody to read these threads and come away thinking "oh, okay, so Dog X _can't_ do Exercise Y" when that's not really true. The dog can do it. The handler may not choose to spend the _time_ on it, especially if it doesn't matter for that team's goals, but the dog can do it.

To me, these discussions sometimes seem to veer towards the equivalent of saying (clumsy analogy alert!) that a kid can't grow up to be good at both mixed martial arts and baseball. Now, sure, the time and skill investment that's necessary to hit top levels in each of those highly competitive endeavors means that as a practical matter nobody is ever likely to be #1 at both of them. And the raw potential in a particular kid might make him slightly better at one thing or the other.

But they don't actually involve mutually _exclusive_ types of potential. There's nothing about being in MLB that would actually make you bad at MMA, or vice versa; in fact, top athletes tend to be exceptionally strong, fast, and coordinated relative to average human ability regardless of what specific sport they pursue. It's just a question of how that potential gets shaped.


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## martemchik

Merciel said:


> I guess I don't really separate the two that much. If the dog has the potential to excel (and IMO, most do, a lot more than we sometimes give them credit for), then my view is that it is your role as the handler to do whatever it takes to bring out that potential. It's a team sport.


Don't take offense to this...but your experience is in rally. And I'm sorry, the higher level obedience sports do take the right dog. So in this discussion we're talking about Schutzhund, and you should understand that no matter how much time and effort you put into your dog, it will never do Schutzhund.

I'm not sure how much dabbling you've done with other obedience exercises...retrieves, go outs, directive jumping, out of sight stays, ect. But those exercises do require a capable dog. In order to place...it takes a special dog. I know a great trainer/handler who is probably on his 10th GSD. She's alright, by the age of 3 she has a UD, but she doesn't wow anyone. She gets 170-180 each time out. Trust me...most people wouldn't have even gotten this far with this dog, but this guy has. It's a testament to him, but at the same time they'll never win high in trial. She just does things at her own pace, and no matter what he's done, she always does things at her own pace.

If you want to compare dog sports to professional people sports (and this is coming from someone that loves doing rally and has titled in rally), rally is like little league, Schutzhund is like the majors. And no matter how much time you put into a dog...if the dog doesn't have it, you're not going to make the majors.


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## onyx'girl

martemchik said:


> Most Schutzhund people are trying to prove what their dogs are capable of, not what they as a handler are capable of. They'd rather have a dog that does things after 10 hours of work rather than 100. If they're being 100% truthful to themselves (and possibly a breeding program), *that will hopefully show them that the dog should be bred or shouldn't. Hopefully...its not about earning the title...its about learning everything you can about that particular dog on the way to a title.*


Titles also show what the breeders program is about. Breeders want their pups to excel, succeed so they know their breeding goals are achieved. 
How many of us buyers look at a breeder and focus on what they are breeding? If there are no titles or dogs working in venues, we don't think as much of them as we do when there is proof(though I know people send dogs out for titles all the time, I'm referring to HOT dogs)


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## martemchik

onyx'girl said:


> Titles also show what the breeders program is about. Breeders want their pups to excel, succeed so they know their breeding goals are achieved.
> How many of us buyers look at a breeder and focus on what they are breeding? If there are no titles or dogs working in venues, we don't think as much of them as we do when there is proof(though I know people send dogs out for titles all the time, I'm referring to HOT dogs)


I wasn't saying anything about titles not being important. I was saying that I would hope that a breeder/handler would learn a lot about their dog in the process of attaining said title and not just push through for a title because they HAVE to breed that dog. Say the dog squeeks by with the minimum scores, and throughout training the dog hasn't been showing that its a truly excellent dog. I would hope that the breeder/handler might make the decision not to breed that dog even though it has a Schutzhund title. I know that many breeders would still breed that dog, many people can't walk away from a dog they spent 2+ years training, but hopefully some would make the decision not to breed.


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## onyx'girl

I personally don't think that everyone that trains in the sport(or any sport)is out to breed their dog as the end all. It is not the goal for most. 
For most it is the joy and journey in training. 
Trialing is but a small picture of time compared to what is invested. Titles aren't that important of course, but when you _earn_ one, it is nice!
I trialed recently and my scores were not something I'd brag about, but it had to do with me more than my dog. I didn't have the experience of trialing and lost points. 
I'm not out to breed my dog, I train in sport for something to do with my dog, and learn how to be a better handler/trainer. And I do know my dog, he is breedworthy, IMO...but I'm not breeding him!


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## boomer11

martemchik said:


> I wasn't saying anything about titles not being important. I was saying that I would hope that a breeder/handler would learn a lot about their dog in the process of attaining said title and not just push through for a title because they HAVE to breed that dog. Say the dog squeeks by with the minimum scores, and throughout training the dog hasn't been showing that its a truly excellent dog. I would hope that the breeder/handler might make the decision not to breed that dog even though it has a Schutzhund title. I know that many breeders would still breed that dog, many people can't walk away from a dog they spent 2+ years training, but hopefully some would make the decision not to breed.


so a dog that doesnt score close to 300 shouldnt be bred? its not all about scores and titles. not everyone out there cares to have a top sport dog. in connection to this thread, a dog that excels in pp but scores low in schutzhund shouldnt be bred? sounds like you have a pretty elitist attitude to me.


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## mycobraracr

An important point that seems to have been missed is, safety of the helper. Dogs that bite for don't always care about a sleeve. A friend of mine recently had to retire his dog from bite sports because of this. The dogs IPO career was even shorter. In it's IPO 1 trial it bit the helper in the tricep. Not the one wearing the sleeve. In SDA, he started really trying to hurt the decoys, not just bite and go for the ride. So long story short, he was retired from bite work before he really hurt someone. Actually he's waiting on the final signature from a PD across country. He has an OB3 and is only two and a half years old so a couple different PD's have been trying to get him. This dog had also taken high in trial in almost every trial it entered. It really sucks for my friend. He loves this dog but he wants to do sport and this dog is a LOT of dog. 


I also want to say that points don't really tell you anything about the dog. Points tell you more about training IMO. The point of trialing and training for a trial is to learn about the dog.


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## onyx'girl

That is why obedience and control are so important. I posted awhile back that IPO is about obedience, there is very little biting involved. Some dogs are better off in PSA or SDA. I know my dog would be happier doing PSA or SDA rather than IPO!


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## Baillif

There are some going for titles to breed a dog but I know a lot of trainers in ring sports doing it for a podium spot as trainers looking to further their status as dog trainers. To podium in ringsports at a high level you don't have a pet dog anymore and you don't treat it like a pet. The dog is brought out to train and condition or socialization for the sake of handling distraction for the sport and it goes back into the crate. It isn't running around the house or hanging out in the back yard or playing with the kids. It's a lifestyle choice for yourself as well as the dog, and it is not for everyone. You need a good dog and you raise them for the sport from an early age. You don't just take some adult that hasn't trained for it and slap them into competition with training. I know this is basically echoing what Martem was saying.

Getting a hold of the really great sport dogs from the best breeders is fairly difficult because many would rather give that dog to a trainer that could take that dog far in the sport than sell it to someone that has no idea what they are doing. To a certain extent it's a case of the rich get richer.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> Don't take offense to this...but your experience is in rally. And I'm sorry, the higher level obedience sports do take the right dog.


Hey now, we got our CD with all three scores in the 190s (low, but still, under the circumstances of those trials, with this dog, I'll take it). I missed HIT by a whisker our second time out. We're training Open and Utility now, should start trialing in Open next spring. 

I know what it takes to do high-level obedience. I've been training under OTCH handlers for some time now, looking at different approaches and what their results are in an ongoing endeavor to learn what works and why and how well under different circumstances.

And you're right, I also know that my dog will never do IPO. But that was and has never been a claim I've made (and fwiw, while I don't train in IPO, I do lurk around trials and talk to people who do it, because I want to have the best possible understanding before I try to get into it myself. I try to be clear about the limitations of my experience in that field, though, because, again, I _don't_ do it myself).

The argument I've been trying to make, however clumsily, is that a dog can be great in obedience but lack the courage to be a good PPD. Golden Retrievers rule the obedience standings, but I wouldn't expect to see one of them in PSA anytime soon.

But I am willing to theorize that a dog who has it in him to be a good PPD also has it in him to do good obedience, _if_ the handler wants to train for that. Because obedience is much more about training than the dog's raw potential.

Now, with that said, the example myco brings up is a pretty compelling counter-argument, and of course he'd know more about this than I would. But I'm still gonna make the claim that most dogs with the fortitude and stability to do PPD _could_ do well in OB if their trainers/handlers wanted, and if they don't, it probably reflects more on the handler's priorities than the dog's lack of ability.


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## mycobraracr

Merciel said:


> I'm still gonna make the claim that most dogs with the fortitude and stability to do PPD _could_ do well in OB if their trainers/handlers wanted, and if they don't, it probably reflects more on the handler's priorities than the dog's lack of ability.


 
In a lot of cases, you are correct. What I'm saying no to, is a dog doing both types of training at the same time. One or the other, probably (though as I've seen with my friends dog not always). I hope this makes sense. A dog trained and brought up to asses threats and bite weapon hands isn't going to do too well in IPO when the weapon hand isn't protected. 

This is one of the reasons I love my training group so much. We really try and get the best of both worlds. We do lots of control work, muzzle, suit and hidden sleeve stuff, trying to keep dogs more on the "real" side of things, while still trying to compete in every venue close to us. In doing this though, sometimes we end up with dogs like my friends and short of beating him and trying to make him something he's not, it's better to sell him to a PD where he can bite whatever he wants. It's no different than someone trying to take a dog that's not cut out for bite work and trying to force it into it.


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## boomer11

with personal protection dogs, if a threat is coming towards it does the dog need a command to bite or does it just use its own judgement to bite? i just imagine a kid with a sword in his hand running towards the dog to "slay the dragon" and the dog takes the kids arm off.


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## onyx'girl

> it's better to sell him to a PD where he can bite whatever he wants. It's no different than someone trying to take a dog that's not cut out for bite work and trying to force it into it.


how many PD K9s are allowed to bite whatever they want? They also need control...but then biting WHEREVER they want on the body is probably a non-issue. Of course the rogues are out there on the streets, and the handlers are probably taking the brunt of the bites. 
These photos wer taken by my sister at a holiday parade last Saturday. 
Kong should use this in their advertising.


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## Merciel

mycobraracr said:


> What I'm saying no to, is a dog doing both types of training at the same time. One or the other, probably (though as I've seen with my friends dog not always). I hope this makes sense.


Totally makes sense and I agree 100%.

I think a lot of foundational work is pretty much the same across sports -- I just started foundational training in agility last month and so far it's pretty much all the same stuff you would do for freestyle, Rally, or comp OB. Only today, a month into the class, did we start moving into agility-specific stuff like wobble boards and balance discs. Before that? Exactly the same foundations as any other sport.

But once you start getting to the competition level, and especially the more serious competition levels, then yeah it totally makes sense to me that you'd have to pick one thing and specialize in it. Even something as basic as heeling, in sports as closely related as comp OB and Rally, is sufficiently different that Pongu and I have to concentrate on one or the other for at least a few days in practice before each trial if I don't want to lose a couple of points on heeling glitches.

I imagine it's infinitely more complicated with bitework, and especially if you're doing something like unpredictable environmental exercises vs. the super stylized patterns in IPO.

So, yep, totally makes sense that you'd have a real hard time trialing in multiple sports simultaneously (which, btw, makes your six weeks thing EVEN MORE insane).


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## martemchik

boomer11 said:


> so a dog that doesnt score close to 300 shouldnt be bred? its not all about scores and titles. not everyone out there cares to have a top sport dog. in connection to this thread, a dog that excels in pp but scores low in schutzhund shouldnt be bred? sounds like you have a pretty elitist attitude to me.


Why is that elitist? And I actually never said anything to that point. All I said was that a dog can get a title with a low score and although it gets that title, when you compare it to a higher scoring dog, IMO the higher scoring dog did BETTER and has proven more. I'm using the sport that was developed to grade breedworthiness for our breed as it was meant to be. A dog that scores 290 is better than one that scores 250 when compared objectively.

I've noticed people have really fallen in love with throwing the elitist word around this forum lately. It's like when someone just states an opinion on breedworthiness its automatically elitist. BTW...I don't do Schutzhund, my dog will never get a Schutzhund title. Does it make me elitist that I believe he shouldn't be bred because of that? Or should I start a thread about breeding him and then call everyone elitist for telling me not to do it?


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## gsdsar

martemchik said:


> Why is that elitist? And I actually never said anything to that point. All I said was that a dog can get a title with a low score and although it gets that title, when you compare it to a higher scoring dog, IMO the higher scoring dog did BETTER and has proven more. I'm using the sport that was developed to grade breedworthiness for our breed as it was meant to be. A dog that scores 290 is better than one that scores 250 when compared objectively.


You had me until this. This is wrong. So wrong. And sad to me that you think because a TEAMS score is higher the dog is better. 

What it actually means is that the handler(pick one)- said the dogs name before a command, took a step back when doing the recall, went 27 paces instead of 30, stopped for 6 seconds instead of 5, the dog was a little crooked on one finish, the dog did not maintain the wrap around prance look for the entire pattern, the hold and bark was 1 foot away instead if 4 inches. 

That's what looses points. Don't fool yourself into thinking that more points means better dog. All it means is the trainer did a better job preparing and "showing" their dog. If you truly believe what you say, that you look at SchH as a breed worthiness test, you will stop obsessing over points and look at the entirety of the dog. Look at the dog with a first time handler who messed up a lot, and the dog still passes, look at the whole picture. Not how it scores. I think you will be surprised at the quality if dogs not on the podium. The podium is for amazing trainers. 




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## Baillif

Trainers can easily cost good dogs points as well with their own mistakes so it is indeed a bit more complicated than "scoreboard" Scoreboard might not lie but it doesn't tell a complete story. Sounds nitpicky but its the truth.


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## martemchik

gsdsar said:


> You had me until this. This is wrong. So wrong. And sad to me that you think because a TEAMS score is higher the dog is better.
> 
> What it actually means is that the handler(pick one)- said the dogs name before a command, took a step back when doing the recall, went 27 paces instead of 30, stopped for 6 seconds instead of 5, the dog was a little crooked on one finish, the dog did not maintain the wrap around prance look for the entire pattern, the hold and bark was 1 foot away instead if 4 inches.
> 
> That's what looses points. Don't fool yourself into thinking that more points means better dog. All it means is the trainer did a better job preparing and "showing" their dog. If you truly believe what you say, that you look at SchH as a breed worthiness test, you will stop obsessing over points and look at the entirety of the dog. Look at the dog with a first time handler who messed up a lot, and the dog still passes, look at the whole picture. Not how it scores. I think you will be surprised at the quality if dogs not on the podium. The podium is for amazing trainers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You're correct! And that was my original point! Hopefully the whole process of trialing and training will show the handler if that dog deserves to be bred or not. Of course you look at the whole picture...but if you're just trying to compare two dogs, and the only information you have are the scores...you have to just go off of the scores, correct?

Here's the funny thing. We tell people to look for a Schutzhund title, to look at how well it trialed, and to separate it objectively from all the rest. Well, your average owner isn't going to see all those things you just mentioned. Someone that goes to a trial or two, a training session or two, they're not going to see those minor differences in performance. They're going to rely on the judge to tell them which dog did better, that day.

It boils down to trusting a breeder and handler to make the right decision. But at the end of the day, a title proves that the dog can do x, y, z. My problem with discussing breeding a PP dog is that there are plenty of people that can claim their dog is a PP dog but won't ever be able to prove it in any way. It's why we have sport trials. I don't know how many times people have come on this forum and have claimed the sire (and in some cases the dam) of their puppy is a K9. Most of the time you know its a marketing ploy by the breeder. PP can be used the same way. Train a dog to bite a suit...show people it bites a suit, and look! A PPD! Lets be serious...that dog is probably not ever going to be tested in a real life situation.

Again, I don't think more points equals a better dog, I know better than that. But how are average people supposed to know that? Should they just believe a breeder when they tell them, "well, we lost all these points because of me, but he's still better than that dog that scored 295."

The last litter I wanted a puppy from (didn't have females) used a sire that was on the WUSV USA National Team. Of course I was impressed! I realize that the handler had a lot to do with it...but knowing the dog had the capability of doing that is still impressive. Knowing that dog got as far as it did, IMO, makes it look better than the other SchH3 dogs out there. Consistent high scores, being on such a high level team, it objectively separates that dog from the rest. At the end of the day...it's really the only way the majority of us potential puppy buyers can differentiate the dogs we see out there.


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## Baillif

In the end you just go for a good dog and going for high titled lines is a good place to start. The training techniques are getting so good dogs are getting titles that never would have titled 10-20-30 years ago so it hasn't been as good a measuring stick for the breed-ability of a dog as it was in decades past.

If you're the kind of person that wants at the podium in ringsports at a high level you're going to have and be going through a lot of dogs.


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## mycobraracr

gsdsar said:


> You had me until this. This is wrong. So wrong. And sad to me that you think because a TEAMS score is higher the dog is better.
> 
> What it actually means is that the handler(pick one)- said the dogs name before a command, took a step back when doing the recall, went 27 paces instead of 30, stopped for 6 seconds instead of 5, the dog was a little crooked on one finish, the dog did not maintain the wrap around prance look for the entire pattern, the hold and bark was 1 foot away instead if 4 inches.
> 
> That's what looses points. Don't fool yourself into thinking that more points means better dog. All it means is the trainer did a better job preparing and "showing" their dog. If you truly believe what you say, that you look at SchH as a breed worthiness test, you will stop obsessing over points and look at the entirety of the dog. Look at the dog with a first time handler who messed up a lot, and the dog still passes, look at the whole picture. Not how it scores. I think you will be surprised at the quality if dogs not on the podium. The podium is for amazing trainers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Thank you!!! 


Points don't tell you  about a dog. You have to watch the dog to see what it's made of. This is one of the reasons the breed is going to crap. People think "oh that dog was a WUSV champion I must breed to it" when in fact there are plenty of dogs that may be better to breed to. I hate this mentality. This is also the reason that many IPO trainers only train pattern after pattern. Don't believe me? Just look at videos of some upper level dogs. They don't even need a handler they have done the pattern so much.


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## Baillif

Go for dogs with MR's and then you know it can do work without everything having to be the exact same every single time.


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## holland

All of this makes me not even want a GSD again-


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## bill

A bad trainer can ruin a great dog. A great trainer can make a OK dog look good.a good trainer can make a good dog look great. A great trainer can make a great dog outstanding! But a great dog is all dogs they just want love from an old trainer bill

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