# What does it mean?



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I am still working on learning the "game" with the tug. Lots of improvements from the previous post. He is enjoying the game now and "outing" much better. I am even able to start adding in a little OB without him going into "overdrive". 

Today I am working from home. I needed a break so I took Bison outside for a quick round of tug. About 3 minutes into play, he GROWLED! This was shocking to me. He is almost 4 and I have never heard him growl until about two weeks ago when he growled during protection work.

I don't know how to read that reaction. What does this mean?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Was it an aggressive growl or a talking growl? I wouldn't be too worried about it if it was an excited "play" growl. Elsa growls during tug and when she wants you to chace her. It's a super-excited play, play, play!!!! growl than a "you better leave me alone" growl....

I think all dogs are different. Elsa also gets her hackles up playing ball with herself in the backyard...she's something!

But I'm just speaking as a regular dog owner and not an Sch person.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSDElsaWas it an aggressive growl or a talking growl?


Difficult to tell because he never growls. With Moose I can tell the difference because I have a point of reference. 

When he did it, I just talked to him in a normal tone and when he stopped, I asked him to out the tug and he did. So, my best guess would be that it wasn't a threat growl.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What was happening when he growled? My understanding is that you don't want growling in SchH though I've never really asked why. Hopefully some experienced members can explain...


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

He had a good full grip on the tug and I was pulling on the handles. His posture, eye expression, ear expression... were not any different than they normally are.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Sounds like a play "talking" growl, vocalizing frustration and drive.

The expression always answers that question.. if it's the same open, happy expression as always when he plays, then that's what it is. A nasty, worrisome growl would be unusual in that sort of play situation (and knowing Bison just plain not going to happen), but would definitely be identified by a change in expression. 

Playful expression = playful vocalization.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

My understanding when a dog growls he his protecting himself. they don't want growls it can escalate to biting.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildSounds like a play "talking" growl, vocalizing frustration and drive.
> 
> The expression always answers that question.. if it's the same open, happy expression as always when he plays, then that's what it is. A nasty, worrisome growl would be unusual in that sort of play situation (and knowing Bison just plain not going to happen), but would definitely be identified by a change in expression.
> 
> Playful expression = playful vocalization.


That makes sense. I wouldn't call the expression "happy", more "intense". It is that ears back, eye widdened stare. When he "outed" he had the "happy" look thought. Think the same holds true with the intense look?

He only did this two times during about 10 minutes of playing. I just talked calmly to him. I did say a firm but even toned "No." I had him out and then let him win the tug. I didn't want to reinforce the growl by letting him win the game at that point, but also didn't want the drive to escalate out of control.

Any additional suggestions on how to handle this?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieHe had a good full grip on the tug and I was pulling on the handles. His posture, eye expression, ear expression... were not any different than they normally are.


Oh, then it's probably fine. I was thinking if he was feeling pressure or something that might be bad. Nikon growls a lot when he's playing with my other dogs, but it's different than if he is growling because he is unsure of himeslf.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: FredDMy understanding when a dog growls he his protecting himself. they don't want growls it can escalate to biting.


A lot of dogs have a "play" growl. Some dogs can be very vocal in play. Like the others said, the dog's expression and body language will tell you a lot about the kind of growl it is.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Go Googling > Search- "Growling dogs" 20+ pages to read....


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: FredDMy understanding when a dog growls he his protecting himself. they don't want growls it can escalate to biting.


Not always.

Yes, growling is a defensive behavior that indicates a dog perceives some sort of threat.

But as has been said, some dogs have a "play growl" that is completely different and not related to defense or willingness to bite at all. It is a vocalization of drive, frustration, a way to up the intensity of the game... it's playful.

The two sound very different, look very different in terms of the dog's expression and body language, and have completely different causes and purposes. So one should never automatically assume that a growl means the dog is afraid or defensive or going to bite. Depends on the dog and the circumstance.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

there was a question about this on another dog forum..the convo went on for a while but a simple answer i got out of it was a dog growling dureing bitework is not a good thing..

from what i've learned is that growling dureing bitework could mean either the dog is frustrated, scared, or uncomfortable.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

This certainly didn't seem threatening. My question was more trying to find out what this means in the context of "the game". Because I am new to SchH, I am still learning the good and bad and in's and out's. I am a visual learner it is very important to me to be able to read my dog and be able to understand what he is trying to communicate to me both verbals and non-verbals. Unless I understand that, I don't think I can train him properly.

With the discussion of aggression or play, I am taking that in the context that aggression is not always bad. That is why I said I didn't know. I didn't feel at all that Bison was treatening me, and he certainly wouldn't have wanted to re-engage right away if that were the case.

But, FredD, I do understand what you are saying. Moose is a fearful dog and he growls to threaten. With him, it is definately a warning. He will follow up with a bite if pushed.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

If you see some lip curling and a tense body posture mixed in with growling, THEN I would be worried LOL.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

What i was try to say Ruthie just read up on it, like a lot of people do and go from there. Education is better then "Hear say" Good luck and have a happy evening.


> Originally Posted By: RuthieThis certainly didn't seem threatening. My question was more trying to find out what this means in the context of "the game". Because I am new to SchH, I am still learning the good and bad and in's and out's. I am a visual learner it is very important to me to be able to read my dog and be able to understand what he is trying to communicate to me both verbals and non-verbals. Unless I understand that, I don't think I can train him properly.
> 
> With the discussion of aggression or play, I am taking that in the context that aggression is not always bad. That is why I said I didn't know. I didn't feel at all that Bison was treatening me, and he certainly wouldn't have wanted to re-engage right away if that were the case.
> 
> But, FredD, I do understand what you are saying. Moose is a fearful dog and he growls to threaten. With him, it is definately a warning. He will follow up with a bite if pushed.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: FredD What i was try to say Ruthie just read up on it, like a lot of people do and go from there.


Yes, but in the context of Schutzhund and Ruthie's other thread, just reading up on Google results about growling in general is really not the best course of action. I'm guessing those results will tell you that growling means the dog feels threatened and is warning you because he might escalate to a fight or flight behavior. But like Chris is saying, some dogs growl like some dogs bark. Dogs bark when they are happy, upset, in pain, lonely, etc. Doesn't mean all barks are a warning bark, just like there is some "ok" growling and some "not ok" growling. In SchH the "not ok" growling usually happens because the dog is feeling insecure, like there is too much pressure at that point (either stick pressure, too much physical presence of the helper or being too crowded by the helper, etc). So if you were playing tug with your dog, he might just growl b/c he's having a good time, but he might also growl out of insecurity if you are crowing him, roughing him up too much, covering his eyes, etc.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

You answered your question.


> Originally Posted By: LiesjeWhat was happening when he growled? My understanding is that you don't want growling in SchH though I've never really asked why. Hopefully some experienced members can explain...


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieThis certainly didn't seem threatening. My question was more trying to find out what this means in the context of "the game". Because I am new to SchH, I am still learning the good and bad and in's and out's. I am a visual learner it is very important to me to be able to read my dog and be able to understand what he is trying to communicate to me both verbals and non-verbals. Unless I understand that, I don't think I can train him properly.
> 
> With the discussion of aggression or play, I am taking that in the context that aggression is not always bad. That is why I said I didn't know. I didn't feel at all that Bison was treatening me, and he certainly wouldn't have wanted to re-engage right away if that were the case.
> 
> But, FredD, I do understand what you are saying. Moose is a fearful dog and he growls to threaten. With him, it is definately a warning. He will follow up with a bite if pushed.


i know in schH they like there bites to be full and calm while in other dog sports they dont necessarilly have to be calm. there are often times when tyson will bite and then give a little frustrated high pitched growl and then bite deeper, harder, and give a little thrash. i would call that frustration. that could be the same thing you are dealing with. your dog may be getting frustrated with not winning the tug. so he is giveing out a little grunt like a human does whe we get frustrated. 

this is hard to explain without video examples. body language would tell a lot more than sound.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Steve, that makes sense. He could certainly be frustrated. I have been working with him a lot on "the game". He is almost 4 and we have never played tug with him because he goes into such high drive that he can't focus on anything else. We have always just used balls to play. Now that we are doing SchH we are using tug for obedience training. 

I have been really working on making the game fun and keeping the drive from escallating to the point that he can't learn. That is why I was surprised that he did this today.

IMO we communicate pretty well though, so I think that he understood that I didn't really like him doing that. So, hopefully he won't continue to do it.

And, FredD, I do appreciate the advice, but I am looking for input on this specific instance and how it applies to Schutzhund and besides my club (memebers frequent the board anyway), this is the best place I know to get info.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> i know in schH they like there bites to be full and calm while in other dog sports they dont necessarilly have to be calm. there are often times when tyson will bite and then give a little frustrated high pitched growl and then bite deeper, harder, and give a little thrash. i would call that frustration. that could be the same thing you are dealing with. your dog may be getting frustrated with not winning the tug. so he is giveing out a little grunt like a human does whe we get frustrated.


A friend of mine calls "to crunch" to that kind of growl.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: FredDYou answered your question.


I do not understand the psychology behind the growl itself.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieSteve, that makes sense. He could certainly be frustrated. I have been working with him a lot on "the game". He is almost 4 and we have never played tug with him because he goes into such high drive that he can't focus on anything else. We have always just used balls to play. Now that we are doing SchH we are using tug for obedience training.
> 
> I have been really working on making the game fun and keeping the drive from escallating to the point that he can't learn. That is why I was surprised that he did this today.
> 
> ...


do you ever let your dog win the tug after the reward??


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntai
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2
> ...


so you know what im talking about??


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I do let him win. Right now, more wins than outs. I would guess 60% wins. When I first started out, I wasn't letting him win because I was too intent on the training. Once I realize it, I switched strategies. I also noticed that the game wasn't fun for him like playing ball is. So, right now my whole focus is making the game fun and gaining Bison's trust that when he "outs" he can still get the tug back.

I think I know what you are talking about with the sleeve, but when Bison growled on the sleeve, he had a full calm bite without being "chewy". (At least from what I remember) But, let out a 3 second or so deep growl.


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## Muttman (Sep 16, 2009)

We had a GSD before the current mongrel that would growl during games of tug. Now we were not doing Schutzhund but we still enjoyed "the game". His growls were more of an ecstatic expression such as 'holy crap this is fun...pull harder'. Good luck and I certainly wouldnt let one or two instances of playful growling concern you.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

When doing OB out in public or at club, I've noticed Mace gets growly when frustrated. He is compliant but gets amped up by outside stimuli (other dogs playing, kids throwing around a ball, lots of activity ect) and when I free him he hits the tug or ball with much more intensity than he normally would. Thrashes around, pulls with everything he has, and growls/whines. I've never thought anything of it, agression wise. I'm just glad he takes his frustration out on the tug, instead of getting too sidetracked with whatever is going on around us.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieI do let him win. Right now, more wins than outs. I would guess 60% wins. When I first started out, I wasn't letting him win because I was too intent on the training. Once I realize it, I switched strategies. I also noticed that the game wasn't fun for him like playing ball is. So, right now my whole focus is making the game fun and gaining Bison's trust that when he "outs" he can still get the tug back.


try rewarding him the tug as soon as he outs so that when he does out he knows he will get the tug back. once you call him "OUT" give him back the tug, or make the tug back to life. once you give it back to him let him have it. i dont mean this to be a blanket statement to solveing any issues. im saying this to maybe help him enjoy the game more. just remember, a dead rabbit is a boreing rabbit.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I think I figured out what is going on. We were playing tug last night in the kitchen and realized that I growl at HIM!







Kind of trash talking him, you know "oh, you think you're a tough guy. You can't get it from me. Oh, you're a good boy! Are you gonna win?..." Even a "Rrrrr" from time to time. NO WONDER! Guess it wasn't fair for me to tell him to be quiet. LOL! He was probably thinking "crazy woman".

Just reinforces the statement "If you want to know what is going on with the dog, look at the other end of the leash".


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## jdp2134 (Apr 9, 2008)

Growling in Sch IMO isnt a big deal. If the dogs grip isnt suffering and his eyes arent closed then he is making the fight more intense.

Me personally i like when my dog intesifies the fight to the helper it lets me know that he takes it serious and it isnt a game at that point anymore.


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