# How reliable are DNA listings?



## ILGHAUS

Has anyone found these to be on the whole reliable or are they more of a spiteful way to spread personal disagreements. Are some listings known for being reliable? Are claims verified in anyway?


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## Fodder

are you talking about dna tests to determine breed? or parentage?


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## pupresq

I get several of these a week. Most have to be cleared by list mods who verify before they are posted.


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## dd

The ones I have seen have often been cleared by 2 or more rescues - in other words several organisations have had a bad experience with an individual and decide to share the information more broadly. One I remember very clearly was an individual contacting rescues to "adopt" a GSD, who on further investigation was a security "expert" placing guard dogs in commercial facilities.


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## Vinnie

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderare you talking about dna tests to determine breed? or parentage?


Given that this is posted in the 'Rescue, Foster & Adoption Information' section I believe she is talking about DNA = Do Not Adopt.


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## Fodder

> Originally Posted By: Vinnie
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderare you talking about dna tests to determine breed? or parentage?
> 
> 
> 
> Given that this is posted in the 'Rescue, Foster & Adoption Information' section I believe she is talking about DNA = Do Not Adopt.
Click to expand...

lol.
thanks!!

*pours second cup of coffee*


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## WiscTiger

I would guess for liability issues that the information would need to be verified or that the information is verifiable.


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## onyx'girl

Is there a way for the general public to view these listings? A database of sorts?


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## WiscTiger

I think there are some that are Public and others that are just done to verified Rescues and Shelters (ie, you can't just say you are HappyDog rescue, you have to have proof).

Val


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## SouthernThistle

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerI would guess for liability issues that the information would need to be verified or that the information is verifiable.


I agree. Then again, several years ago the rescue with whom I volunteered placed someone on a DNA list. Their Veterinary reference checked out when they were contacted, their "home" (or supposed home) checked out, but two weeks later the puppy was returned for being "impossible to housetrain." When the puppy came back, it would keep its tail tucked, would SCREAM if someone touched it, and if you raised your voice, it'd urinate all over itself. It was also underweight. When the rescue's director called the Veterinarian's office (who gave the "okay" on the adopter,) the Veterinarian's office said, "her other ten dogs always come in for vaccinations every year." (Ten dogs that weren't listed on the application and weren't present at the home visit. The adopter had two residences. One can only imagine what the "ten dog home" was used for.)


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## Jax08

So the person who was verifying the application did not ask the vet

1) do they own any other animals?
2) Do you see the animals for visits other than vaccinations?


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## Mandalay

Let me ask this...Once someone is on a DNA list, is it possible for them to get removed from the list? Is there a certain amount of time until their name drops off or are they forever blacklisted?

This has me worried now because of the situation with my exhusband and my previous Doberman. If the Doberman rescue put me on _the list_ does that mean that I can never ever adopt from a rescue? Do shelters use information on the DNA list, too?

I am really concerned about this. Great. Like I needed something else to worry about.


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## pupresq

For a DNA to be issued, the situation is usually pretty serious. I don't remember the exact situation with the Doberman but I think it's unlikely that's the sort of thing where a DNA would be sent out. For example, rescues don't issue DNAs on everyone they turn down for adoption even if there are some issues. Hopefully any rescue where you were trying to adopt, you could be honest and explain the situation, then they would look at your current pets, do a vet reference check, get back good info, and you'd be fine.


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## Jax08

Emily...I don't know the situation but if you have an honest explanation and you were upfront with them I don't see why you would be on a DNA list.

DNA's are usually when something really bad happens that put the animal in danger.


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## Doubleminttwin

Question answered


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## dd

I don't think any rescue would receive a DNA on someone and immediately decide without any further info "this is someone we cannot deal with". DNAs are intended to be red flags to people, a way of saying, we've had some issues with this person, beware. Besides which, there are common names where there can be mix-ups, there are changes of address.

To me a DNA is a note of caution that's put out to assist in the screening process. The example I gave saved small rescues run by volunteers some time in that the individual received a nice email saying "we only adopt our dogs as companons, not as guard dogs". He never disputed the fact that that's what he wanted the dogs for and he went away. If he had disputed the fact, rescues would undoubtedly have checked him but with greater care.


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## Alto

I've seen these discussed on a local rescue board where alot of the posters involved are with verified rescues or represent the same - all I can say is that I've never joined this board due to the extreme spitefulness & misinformation I've read posted by these same individuals AND they are contributors to the local DNA list









I've had personal knowledge of some of the Hot Topics discussed & very little fact was involved or was so distorted that any resemblance to fact was lost








eg, a cat rescue woman was viciously attacked by a cat & wanted help - not one poster on the board offered sympathy, but all accused her of euthanising the cat - not one offered assistance in temperament testing the cat or ideas for safely rehabilitating the cat or safely placing the cat









What happened to the cat: a friend (who'd trapped feral cats for years) dropped everything & drove to N's home, "captured the cat" & took her for assessment at a local vet clinic: this cat had been in rescue for almost 2 months at the time, was believed to be a domestic cat that had gone feral, she had attacked & killed 4 out of 5 of her kittens ~2 weeks earlier; it turned out to be misplaced aggression & the cat was safely rehomed to an experienced indoor only, single cat home ... N was still the subject of spiteful barbs months later. 

I'd like to believe that the board members are more investigative & factual when making recommendations to the DNA list but I'm doubtful; to my knowledge, local additions to the list are not verified by any objective group.

Interestingly, although N went to emergency care & required stitches (she had ~20 bites below the knee & many deep scratches), no reports were filed & the incident was never investigated - imagine if the offending animal had been a dog!


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## pupresq

I think it really depends what kind of board it is. I've seen the same stuff you're talking about on Craigslist chat forums and the Petfinder Forums. Those places are a loopy free for all where facts are not even on the radar. The lists where I see the DNAs that I take seriously are moderated and approved before posting.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Here is the website:

http://www.dnapets.org/about.aspx

In order to search for a name you must register. In order to register you must belong to a rescue group or shelter or, if you are doing it independently, you must provide references.

All these ARE checked before you are allowed access to the database to search a name.


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## Alto

I wish








- these guys contribute to a Canadawide DNA list


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## Prinzsalpha

I was shocked to see a name come through on the list today from someone who used to be on this board. I sure hope it is verified on both ends before it hits the world wide web. The person named and the peeps who submit the information should be checked for credibility also. Last week I got some for my county which I was surprized about. But I guess it happens all over. We as rescues really need to check those applications and most importantly do the homevisits and talk to neighbors of the potential adopters.


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## Mandalay

Well, I feel a little better about it now.

I've posted the story of my Dobe before, but the short version is...My exhusband and I were getting divorced and decided to try to work thigns out. Ya know...for the baby. Ugh. Anyway, in order for him to "try" I had to get rid of my dog. I know. I know. Red flag. I was young, stupid and afraid of being alone with a toddler. So I sent my Dobe to live with my mom for a few months hoping he would come around and he never did. I sent her to the Doberman rescue. It was honestly the worst day of my life up to this point. I filed for divorce shortly after that because I just couldn't forgive him.


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## pupresq

That's not the kind of thing you'd see a DNA over. It's the kind of thing that one group might hold against you but others would totally understand and be fine with adopting to you. I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Jax08

I don't think it's anything to worry about either. You did what was best for the dog in the situation you were in. The dobe was never in danger and was safely rehomed. Don't know how anyone could fault you for that.


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## katieliz

i got the same dna e-mail maureen. one of two things has happened, either this person has really pulled some wool over lots of eyes (especially here on this board), or has made some very serious enemies somewhere down the line. it's hard for me to comprehend that someone could just make-up these charges, which are very serious...and i would think, if not true, lawsuit worthy. i am not sure what to think, or what to do with this info...which on one hand i feel is very important for everyone who does rescue to have, and on the other hand to heed my desire to not damage a reputation undeservedly. if one subscribes to the theory of "where there's smoke there's fire", i'd think the reputation has already been damaged beyond repair. a sad situation all the way around.


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## onyx'girl

I think it would be in the interest of the dogs if these people could be outed publicly. I almost helped someone adopt recently without that knowledge just to find out recently this person is on the list.

I am sick to my stomach to think what might have happened if this had gone thru.

If the DNA info wasn't correct, then so be it, but what if it were, the wool was pulled over eyes and another dog had to suffer at the hands of a sicko.


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## katieliz

"outed" publicly now. all over the internet, all over google, now posted in it's entirety here on the board.


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## Betty

All over? Anyone see anything unusual in this?


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## pupresq

Not really. It's the first one I've ever seen on this board but I see a lot of them widely circulated.


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## Betty

Publically?


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## katieliz

there are only two possibilities that i can fathom...either wool has been pulled over many eyes for a very long time OR some serious enemies have been made who are out to besmirch a reputation (but possibly incur a lawsuit if accusations are untruths). i have been hearing "rumblings" of problems and suspicions for a while now, had an unsettling pm from the person in question, and backed-off what i would loosely term an "on line friendship", since this person's long distance adoption of a dog inspired me to first begin rescue from this board. something has felt "off" to me for awhile now tho. i have been asking around for anyone who can provide facts to back up these allegations.


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## Jax08

I guess part of it could be easily proven true or false by calling the animal controls listed in the email.


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## Betty

By the post that just appeared on the database it appears that there are negative feelings towards this board.


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## Chris Wild

I have deleted yet another post of the DNA in question. I'm leaving this thread open for right now, as there are no names mentioned and thus it's not in violation of board rules. However if names are mentioned, this thread will be deleted as well.

Also, if anyone sees this DNA posted on the board yet again (Admins have deleted 2 or 3 now) PLEASE hit the notify button immediately and someone will get to it as soon as possible.

-Admin


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## pupresq

> Quoteublically?


Sometimes. Usually I see them go across rescue lists and on rescue bulletin boards etc.


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## Betty

I don't recall ever seeing this kind of a flurry, unless charges have been filed.


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## pupresq

I've never seen it here either. But I have certainly seen it on rescue forums, lists, bulletins etc.


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## kathyb

I have received the same e-mail and have sent it on to all my contacts and everyone should do the same.


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## sitstay

I have never seen anything like that posted here, or anywhere else where there was no information given about how the reporting agency came to believe the situation as it is reported. 

Gosh, I hope that makes sense. I am not sure if it does? I would like to see facts laid out: on date such and such, so and so adopted animal A. On such and such date, animal A was surrendered to vet/shelter B in condition blah-blah-blah.

I don't know. Something just doesn't fit right. I don't know where the disconnect is, on which side of the issue, but there is absolutely information missing.
Sheilah


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## Betty

Thanks Sheilah.

That makes a lot of sense and I think you pretty much described what is making me uncomforable.


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## katieliz

jax08, i did not see any animal controls, pounds, shelters, etc., listed in the DNA notice, only private e-mail accounts, the from-to kind of thing. there seemed to be no actual "facts" only allegations, which would certainly arouse suspicions but would not prove anything.

there was, however, a post in another thread (maybe one of the ones now closed), that mentioned working to place "60" animals from "name of person"...i have asked for clarification from poster but have not heard back.


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## Jax08

Really? I'm looking at the DNA email right now and there are two animal controls listed in it. Was your email different?


The 60 Hayden dogs? Is it in here? There is a post from Dawn Knight about them.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=516468&page=1&fpart=2


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## DianaM

I can't even begin to fathom..... I sincerely hope there are facts backing up this venomously written DNA. If there are, then there are and it is good to get the word out (but perhaps in a less biased fashion) but if the allegations are false... there is going to be quite a hefty defamation lawsuit out there. Something definitely is not right here but I hope the facts are set straight for all involved- adopters, rescues/shelters, and dogs.

I agree, there are plenty of legitimate sources for DNAs and plenty of sources for dogworld drama; I'm glad the board is run as it is.


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## katieliz

my understanding is that dawn's post is about something/someplace else but i've asked for clarification.


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## Prinzsalpha

I did correspond with the Dna list yesterday. They told me it was checked on both ends. 
Since he will be going to Florida on Monday I suggest we post DNA on him in Craigslistings in Orlando to warn the peeps. He has said he is not going for a dog but his listing says otherwise. The shelters in the area need to get the email also to make sure. Just some thoughts. If I can save one dog it will be well worth it. Just to keep him honest you might say.


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## onyx'girl

Myoung,thank you so much!!


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## cassadee7

The accusations I found by googling this made me sick.


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## Jax08

> Originally Posted By: MyoungI did correspond with the Dna list yesterday. They told me it was checked on both ends.


Thank you for taking the time to verify the validity of this!


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## Betty

> Originally Posted By: cassadee7The accusations I found by googling this made me sick.


The accusations have now taken a life of their own and I suspect will only get more and more inflamatory and less and less based on any factual incident.


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## katieliz

i'm sorry to have to say that the responses to inquiries i've put out there have been factual, and from people whose reputations in the rescue community i respect.


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## kelso

Who writes the DNA's. Or who wrote this?
I do not know much about this sort of thing, sorry if it was already mentioned.

If we are left to insinuate, let our imaginations run wild ect, my concern is where are the dogs, who is keeping them safe, if this person is dangerous and should not be adopting than....

I suspect someone here knows more, why can't we all be privy to this information? Like said in many posts, the facts. I am not trying to deny that there is something wrong here, but what and how this all got started and why. This person had been on this forum for a long time. Where are these people that know these things? Not trying to be flippant at all, I am sincere in the concern for what may have/had been going on, but why nothing more than the DNA that was posted over...and over

Otherwise I am unsure why this is being allowed to be played out here.


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## Fee

I second what Kelso said!


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## dd

Regardless of the facts in this case, I think the speculation has had an important consequence - people are wondering whether or not you can really "know" someone through a chat board. And the answer, for good or for bad, is "NO!" - you cannot really know what a person is truly like based on their posts on a board. 

So when sending a real live dog to someone's home, you need to do real live checks. You may find all your good feelings about the person confirmed 100%. Or maybe not. And if not, then you have protected that dog you were trying to help.


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## sgtmom52

> Originally Posted By: cassadee7The accusations I found by googling this made me sick.


Please be careful when Googling names. There are many people out there with the same or similar names but they are very different people. Try Googling your own name and see what happens. It is not fair to judge anyone solely on a Google search. 

I am not defending anyone but the name of the person in question comes back to over 300 people in the US alone.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

That is the bottom line on any person or any DNA/DNR too. 

Before you send a dog to a rescue, find out, do they do home checks on all their homes? If not, why not? Do they ever make exceptions? Do you work with a group that doesn't call vet references? Each and every time? Then you are sending a dog somewhere like the Do You Know Where That Dog is Going post in this section. 

For individuals, it's the same. 

I have a bajillion posts, many of them bumps, and probably almost as many jumping into a thread reminding people of Rhaya's post. I have posted it for people who have 1 post and people who have been around for a long time. 

I have a personal reason for doing so. It is to honor a dog whose name I never learned. She was about 13, and a greyhound mix. It was a home check I did in Central NY with Melinda and Jay's sons, their first home visit. The family had A++ (seriously) vet references and wonderful personal references. We were there, they were talking about their perfect dog. A son's dog was listed on the app, but no other information. Outside, Melinda saw yellow snow. It was like 14 degrees. We asked about the dog...she was in a thin wood (not sure how to describe that) tiny shed. It had a light bulb and straw. When they unlocked it there she stood, shivering in the cold, that thin fur...

She had gotten on their furniture. Those bastards put that dog in that shed to LIVE because she got on their furniture. 

Melinda called AC. We never found out what happened to her - AC wouldn't tell us. If we had gone by references they would have gotten a dog. So I don't care if Queen Elizabeth applies for a corgi through rescue, she needs to be checked out. 

That's all. Just standard operating procedure for each person and each dog. 


ETA: yes, definitely on the googling w/Sgt.Mom on anyone


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## SouthernThistle

> Originally Posted By: Jax08So the person who was verifying the application did not ask the vet
> 
> 1) do they own any other animals?
> 2) Do you see the animals for visits other than vaccinations?


From what I can remember, they did ask the Vet about other animals, and the Vet said, "we were told her other dog passed away." It was the Vet Tech that spoke up about the "other dogs." 

The crappy thing is....when I was volunteering with the rescue, and I was walking a Pit Bull puppy in the park one afternoon, I noticed this car acting odd. It would park next to my car, and the woman would just sit there, staring at us. When we went on our walk, she moved her car over to the side of the road where we were walking. When we walked back to the car, they were back by my car and said, "That thar is a 'blue steel' pit. You wanna sell him?" I told her "No. He was going to be up for adoption." I asked her if she wanted me to call her when he was available through the rescue. She said she could "just take him now if that was okay." I said it was not okay. I asked her if she wanted me to call her (again.) She said, "I ain't got no phone." I said, "ooooookay. Would you like to meet the director out here tomorrow to talk things over with her?" She said, "I gotta work tomorrow. I got about 10 other dogs at home. He'd have a real nice home." 

It wasn't until the Director started talking about the adopter and describing her (I had never met the adopter) that I realized it was the same woman from that night.


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## Jax08

omg...I keep hoping that evolution will catch up to some people..


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## SouthernThistle

So how does one report a DNA? As in...so-and-so collects free dogs/dogs listed on this board claiming she is a rescue - "with license paperwork" - only to discover the dogs pulled (with the assistance of other rescues) being resold/bred for profit (and the person DOESN'T have any paperwork to be licensed as a rescue with the State?) I know there are at least two police reports filed against this person.

PMs welcomed.


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## dd

One good way is to raise awareness without naming names - "Do you know where that dog is going?" is an excellent reminder not to take people at their word and to check their licence status. It was sent out broadly as an email and it covers all situations so people will understand that these are not isolated cases.


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## cassadee7

> Originally Posted By: sgtmom52
> Please be careful when Googling names. There are many people out there with the same or similar names but they are very different people. Try Googling your own name and see what happens. It is not fair to judge anyone solely on a Google search.
> 
> I am not defending anyone but the name of the person in question comes back to over 300 people in the US alone.


But only one of them comes back as in their state.
And only one comes back with rescued GSDs.
And only one has that phone number, which was publicly posted on the board and on numerous Craigslists.
And only one has that email address.

I agree you cannot just google a name. But if you know how to google, you would be shocked what you can find out about someone in 10 minutes. 

**not saying the accusations are ACCURATE, just that they are re: a specific person, backed up by posts BY that person.


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## Karin

This makes me want to cry. I googled the name in question last night and a ton of websites came up with the same DNA warning message. I had a hard time sleeping last night thinking about it.

If it's not true, it is ruining someone's life. If it is true.... well, it makes me feel sick to my stomach. And people's imaginations can run wild. Is it a hoarding situation? Is it an outright cruelty case? I know that both are unacceptable, but it's hard to fathom that someone you really liked and trusted could be so different than what you thought.

Whatever the outcome, it is a reminder that you don't really know people on the Internet and it is wise to be on the overly cautious side.


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## SunCzarina

Karin, some of what's out there is speculation on what's happened to the dogs in question. From what I understand of the situation, it's more careless record keeping (and possibly careless placement) than viciousness. What's on the pedigree database board is just plain vicious.


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## wsumner26

> Quote: it's more careless record keeping


Sorry I don't understand this statement..On who's part?


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## cassadee7

May I ask this, if anyone knows...

there was questioning on the board regarding a certain rescued dog dying suddenly of cancer shortly after being adopted. Wouldn't it be very simple for someone (in a rescue) to ask the owner to provide the copy of the supposed autopsy from the vet? Wouldn't this quickly verify whether or not the dog's death was by cancer or questionable as has been speculated? If the owner cannot/will not provide the vet record with cause of death, then I would say the DNA would, sadly, be unavoidable. Especially with so many dog deaths over a few years. But if a vet verifies it was NOT the owner's fault then he could be cleared of this mess.


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## Karin

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaKarin, some of what's out there is speculation on what's happened to the dogs in question. From what I understand of the situation, it's more careless record keeping (and possibly careless placement) than viciousness. What's on the pedigree database board is just plain vicious.


Thanks for your reply, Jenn. If it's just a matter of carelessness or even some dishonesty in filling out the applications, that's one thing. But if there is nothing else that has been proven, it's pretty awful that the message that is being posted far and wide is making this person sound like a monster. Some of the speculation that people are making on some other boards has been pretty horrendous. The Internet can be useful but it can also be very damaging when some people have hidden agendas and vendettas that are more directed towards another board than an individual.


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## WiscTiger

[removed by me acting as Admin. I shouldn't have posted what I did]


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## pupresq

> Quote:If it's just a matter of carelessness or even some dishonesty in filling out the applications, that's one thing.


But if there's a pattern of dishonesty and it goes beyond what was admitted to on the board - which seems to be the case, based on what other rescues are saying - that just by itself is a problem. 

Stuff that was going on clearly doesn't match up with how things were being portrayed on the board.


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## WiscTiger

OK let me try something else.

We all understand that adopting older females carry some risk of the things dogs suffer from in old age. But when multiple things don't add up that causes reg flags to go up. When the red flags go up, rescue groups start comparing notes and information, when more things become apparent then it really is apparent that some thing isn't right. If it is just one incident unless it can be proved as neglect then most DNA's pretty much go unnoticed. It is when there are multiple things that cause red flags that make the biggest splashes. 

I am just saying if it was me, I would be doing everything that I could to find what caused the red flags and go public with the information that clarifies the situation. If there is nothing to hide then there can't be any misunderstanding. Any form of miscommunication or misunderstandings can be cleared up, lying or hiding details is just that.


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## pupresq

Agreed!


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## Anja1Blue

Some of the "viciousness" on the PDB was actually directed at the moderators and members of this Forum - the OP was banned here some time ago and seems to be embittered and seriously angry about it, to the point where she essentially hijacked her own thread and turned it into a diatribe about the way she felt she had been wronged here..... The subject of the DNA wasn't even identified by name until another person posted the original, complete, e-mail - which had been sent out to a large number of people involved with rescue (and one of those sent it on to me.) A couple of individuals I really trust 100% (and who are the last people to rush to judgment on anything) believe it to be true. Both have seen the multiple solicitations on Craigslist etc. etc........and have apparently been picking up on the alarm bells for some time. I would still like to see a lot more in the way of hard facts - but I have to say that keeping an open mind is getting more difficult as time goes by. So.... to answer your question, I would say that this particular DNA listing would seem to be reliable, and the only way I think it can go away is for the subject to come forward and mount a credible defense, truthfully answering the charges that have been brought.

___________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Fee

Thanks Susan for your post! 
The ramblings and own agenda of a certain poster on the PDG was really hard to follow and a complete turn off - it's the dogs who loose in the end. Energy could be spend better elsewhere...

Has AC ever been notified then and checked out the welfare of the remaining 3 dogs (or even if they exist)? 

I hope it isn't true!


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## Betty

> Quote: I would still like to see a lot more in the way of hard facts - but I have to say that keeping an open mind is getting more difficult as time goes by. So.... to answer your question, I would say that this particular DNA listing would seem to be reliable, and the only way I think it can go away is for the subject to come forward and mount a credible defense, truthfully answering the charges that have been brought.


Good post and good points.

A man's reputation has been destroyed. Because of that I personally would like to see facts and figures.

Dog A was adopted on such a such day and disappeared on or about....

So and so requested vet records or contact info on such a such a day and again on______. They had the right to this information because_________. 

I use to spend every Friday testifying in closed court hearings on child abuse investigations. I learned real fast that the judge wanted to hear "During my visit on ______ that lasted from _____to____ I observed 3 mice in the kitchen, mouse droppings in the living room, and saw approximately 6 cockroaches scurry over my feet while I sat on a couch with 3 wet urine stains and 2 dry ones. 

He did not want to hear that the house was rodent and cockroach infested.......

Just my two cents.


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## Sue F

I have hesitated to comment, since I only have second-hand knowledge of this situation from what I have been reading online, however I will say this....perhaps the reason that many of the people who have first-hand knowledge of the facts and figures are afraid to come forward with specifics for fears of repercussions from the accused individual or from those who do not agree with the findings. While it is very easy to provide such information in a closed court situation, it is a whole other issue to provide that information to a board on the internet.


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## Betty

Another Good point. I would of liked to see more backing up what info was provided in the DNA. More specifics. 

And while it was closed court. Mom, dad, and often family was across the table from me. It was closed to the public, in order to protect the minor.


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## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: Anja1BlueSome of the "viciousness" on the PDB was actually directed at the moderators and members of this Forum


There was also some nasty speculation 

1. wants docile old lady dogs. What's the BFD w/that - has middleaged/old bitch pack and wants to carry on that dynamic

2. found online listings as having a hobby shop in 1995 that carries supplies for taxidermy. Does this make a person a taxidermist -that's really stretching the bounds of even my imagination. 

What sticks in my mind about there possibly being some truth to the allegation is that questions from friends on another board went unanswered and said party carried on posting there as if nothing was going on.

In regards to my comment about careless record keeping, this is about the dogs from ACs, not rescue. Doesn't know where they are right now. We're talking about a MAN here, how many single men that age do you know who keep all their records in a giant cardboard box that gets thrown out when they move?


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## pupresq

I think there's also the issue of the number of dogs because it sounds like there were a lot more than were mentioned on the board. 

Had not heard the taxidermy thing.



> Quote:In regards to my comment about careless record keeping, this is about the dogs from ACs, not rescue. Doesn't know where they are right now. We're talking about a MAN here, how many single men that age do you know who keep all their records in a giant cardboard box that gets thrown out when they move?


What was the thing about that?


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## SunCzarina

I understand the numbers are far more than just what we were made aware of here. That's a question for me as well. For someone who was active posting pics and stories, why don't I remember any of that?


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## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:In regards to my comment about careless record keeping, this is about the dogs from ACs, not rescue. Doesn't know where they are right now. We're talking about a MAN here, how many single men that age do you know who keep all their records in a giant cardboard box that gets thrown out when they move?
> 
> 
> 
> What was the thing about that?
Click to expand...

I think it's the same thing you're talking about. It came to me via pm from some who'd gotten half an explanation from him.


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## pupresq

I hadn't heard anything about paper records from AC. I thought maybe you were talking about vet records, but I took that to mean stuff obtainable from the vet.
Yeesh - I have trouble finding paper records around my house myself and I'm not a single man!


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## Betty

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaI understand the numbers are far more than just what we were made aware of here. That's a question for me as well. For someone who was active posting pics and stories, why don't I remember any of that?


Why not give the numbers that they are aware of, that is what I don't understand.

And again, I'm not sticking up for him, I think the DNA would of served a lot better with specifics.


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## Amaruq

As far as taxidermy I am not sure what the big deal is. I live in an area where hunting is very popular and there are folks that do taxidermy "on the side" for hunters. Alaska also has a lot of hunters many people opt to use such services. 

I agree there is a whole lot of speculation and jumping to conclusions with very few facts. I doubt "the net" will never really know the entire truth but as a whole will believe what they choose to believe with or without facts. It is the nature of the Internet Beast. I think many of the people doing the speculation on this topic are basically folks like me who only have 2nd, 3rd or even "just what I read on the Internet" knowledge of the actual facts and many people feel that is "proof enough" without actual facts. 

Fact or fiction? Only those ACTUALLY involved know for sure. There are a lot of vindictive people out there whose sole purpose in life seems to be ripping others down to make themselves appear better as well as a a lot who try to make themselves be someone they are not. Anonymity can bring out the best and worst of people.


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## pupresq

> Quote:I agree there is a whole lot of speculation and jumping to conclusions with very few facts. I doubt "the net" will never really know the entire truth but as a whole will believe what they choose to believe with or without facts. It is the nature of the Internet Beast.


I think that's true - and, like you say, that it cuts both ways. It's true with negative information but it's also true with positive information. The only way to know for sure is to check check check. I hope this entire thing will be an eye opener for people about the importance of home visits and reference checks. Maybe the info you get back is great, it's not that you should be looking for bad info, but you need to check not speculate or assume. Real dogs, real people --> real checking. Good practices.


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## Betty

> Quote:Fact or fiction? Only those ACTUALLY involved know for sure. There are a lot of vindictive people out there whose sole purpose in life seems to be ripping others down to make themselves appear better as well as a a lot who try to make themselves be someone they are not. Anonymity can bring out the best and worst of people.


That sums it up a lot better then I ever could.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:I agree there is a whole lot of speculation and jumping to conclusions with very few facts. I doubt "the net" will never really know the entire truth but as a whole will believe what they choose to believe with or without facts. It is the nature of the Internet Beast.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's true - but also that it cuts both ways. It's true with negative information but it's also true with positive information. The only way to know for sure is to check check check. I hope this entire thing will be an eye opener for people about the importance of home visits and reference checks. Maybe the info you get back is great, it's not that you should be looking for bad info, but you need to check not speculate or assume. Real dogs, real people --> real checking. Good practices.
Click to expand...

I agree it works with positive and negative information as well as truth, fiction and lies.


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## Karin

> Originally Posted By: Anja1Blue... the only way I think it can go away is for the subject to come forward and mount a credible defense, truthfully answering the charges that have been brought.


It looks like he is back and does have an explanation.


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## pupresq

sort of.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina2. found online listings as having a hobby shop in 1995 that carries supplies for taxidermy. Does this make a person a taxidermist -that's really stretching the bounds of even my imagination.
> 
> What sticks in my mind about there possibly being some truth to the allegation is that questions from friends on another board went unanswered and said party carried on posting there as if nothing was going on.


That's interesting about the 1995 reference, because until recently, it was still listed in the online Yellow Pages for that area, seems to be removed now.


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## Dainerra

> Originally Posted By: LisaTThat's interesting about the 1995 reference, because until recently, it was still listed in the online Yellow Pages for that area, seems to be removed now.


there is still a listing in the phone book for me. I haven't had a home phone in almost 6 years, but it's still listed in every phone book covering my local area


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## GSDElsa

I just posted my opinion of DNA's in the other thread, might as well do it here too.

I think that these things need to be MUCH more detailed to not sound like some high school "Mean Girl" talking behind someone's back.

They need to read something like:
On June 22, 2009, a Dr. X performed X examination on X dog, and came to X conclusions. Dr. X noted that Xdog was cancer free and in good health, per the vet records contained on X date and available for viewing via attached PDF file. Within 2 weeks of going X place, the dog allegedy died from cancer complications. No autopsy was performed, and Dr. X, who had examined the dog 15 days ago, gave the written opinion that Xdog could not have developed cancer in 2 weeks and died from complications. 

and

On Sept 14, 2008, GSD Rescue of Random City obtained an application by X person who stated the following on the applicaiton: CHYU was the living situation. GSD Rescue of Middle of Nowhere State received an application by X person on Sept 16, 2008 stating that the living situation was: HYFG. Documents showing variations of statements are attached. 

You get the point. Right now it's a bunch of hear say and finger pointing... "supposedly the dog died of X" and was "fully vetted" and person X lied to "a bunch of" rescue. The entire DNA sounds like a vindictive high schooler wrote it.

I have no idea if this is the norm for DNA's, but I am sorely disappointed in the entire thing if it is. There is NO proof or documation contained in it. I think it's a shame that people actually believe what is contained in them. As someone who routinely is in a courtroom, it's almost laughable to read the contents.

If these things are being taken seriously accross the Rescue community as a whole and are cross posted and used as gospel, there needs to be a LOT more that goes into them.


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## TANDB

> Originally Posted By: Karin
> It looks like he is back and does have an explanation.


As in on another board or privately?


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## onyx'girl

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1334816#Post1334816


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## middleofnowhere

This is a case where I really wish the original DNA notice had been posted. I'm left with smoke and mirrors! It's like eve dropping on someone's conversation!


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## Anja1Blue

Middle,if you have an e-mail address I can forward the original to you.....or you can go to the PDB and wade through a lot of ranting by a former member of this forum to get to it. The full DNA e-mail is about a half way down the thread.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/356854.html#357544
_________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD -adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereThis is a case where I really wish the original DNA notice had been posted. I'm left with smoke and mirrors! It's like eve dropping on someone's conversation!


There's also discussion on the Pedigree database (click here)  about Richard and his situation. Gotta kind of weed thru it all. Interesting to go thru another forum board!


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Originally Posted By: TANDB
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Karin
> It looks like he is back and does have an explanation.
> 
> 
> 
> As in on another board or privately?
Click to expand...

Richard responded in the chat section recently, the link is click here...


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