# RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES



## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

*RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

Hey, what do you guys think about this receipe? i also do all kinds of raw bones. just gave the guys some ham bones, use some lamb and usually beef marrow bones. i was doing the nature's variety, bravo raw frozen patties, but they are so expensive!!! do you think this would be cheaper if i get some meat on sale? what do you experienced raw feeders think?

http://www.petstouch.com/whyraw.asp


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

Why go through all that trouble? The bones you are giving sound more like recreational bones than bones to eat. Better to give turkey necks and backs, chicken quarters and backs, pork necks, etc as your base meaty bone, some organs like liver, kidney, lung, spleen, etc, and muscle meat like beef heart. Vary up the proteins and it's cheap and easy. If you want to feed veggies, a steamer can cook the veggies to an easily digested pulp while retaining most of the vitamins and nutrients.









I just don't see a point to the patties as it's so much more work. I do think they'd be great for training treats. Just my two cents.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

well, i have 5 dogs of all different sizes, so what i do is proportion out their daily raw rations for the day. it's alot easier if they are all put together in a single patty. this way, i know how much to feed and that's it. plus, i don't really have the room to freeze all the organ meat, muscle meat and bones. so i figure grind everything up in a convenient single use patty. although initially it might be some work, doesn't seem all that hard and i'd have them on hand for awhile. this guy making his receipe didn't seem like it was all that hard.


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## Fee (Jul 4, 2004)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

I have been feeding those patties for about 2 months now. I used to feed BARF (since puppy) but our GSD had complicated colon surgery recently and her food needs to be mushy in order to be able to get 'out'. Has been working great, it's a little more work than BARF but not too bad. Price is about the same as the commerical patties for us, but since she can't have any bone anymore, this is the way to go and still stay on raw. Good luck!


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

well fee, my first consideration in making my own would definitely of course be price. depending on how great of a sale i can get on ground beef or i can get on chicken, but my other consideration was knowing that it was in fact fresh. sometimes when i get the premade there is alot of ice in the bag. i hear this can be from it thawing a bit while in transit and then refreezing. this scares me. i work at a pet nutrition center and sometimes the food is a little starting to like thaw when it comes off our distribution truck. now who knows how much does it really thaw from the plant to the actual distribution center, then to us. that's a lot of transport for a raw diet. i figure it might be fun to make the ones that that guy is making. of course i couldn't get goat's milk so i would use the organs instead. i would imagine they would be so nice and fresh. i'll let you know how it works out!!!


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

by the way fee, what do you use in your patties? do you use that guy's receipe or your own. if you use your own, i'd be interested in what you put in? thanx


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## Fee (Jul 4, 2004)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

I pretty much follow the recipe but I would have done it like this anyways - I have been feeding raw over 12 years now. I alternate between goat milk and organ meat. Most grocery stores carry goat milk here in the organic section or our health food store has it too. I also alternate the protein: ground beef, lamb, turkey whatever is on special and whatever veggie-combo I have on hand. I order the beef and lamb freshley ground - they do it if you ask but we have to wait 20 min. for it. Unfortunately it can't be done for the turkey... I do freeze and thaw the patties to minimize bacteria as it can build up if you use ground meats every day. 
I have never frozen/thawed when I was feeding BARF (mostly chicken or turkey necks) which is fine.
I do add some supplements to the patties like probiotics, kelp, Vit. C, fish oil or flax seed oils) for her health and the calcium comes from ground egg shells. She just looks as good as on BARF with shiny hair etc. but unfortunately her teeth aren't as white as when chewing bones... 
I like doing the patties since I have to feed her 3 times a day as meals need to be kept small for her colon so that allows me to weigh it out exactly. I really don't care about the cost as we rather sacrifice on something else. 
I think it runs me about CAN $ 4.00-5.00 a day with the supplements. I just would never feed anything but raw (unless there was a health issue and it couldn't be done). Our almost 15 yr. old Mix still eats BARF







Chicken necks etc. are cheaper then the ground meat. We get a deal on lamb from a Middle Eastern store so you have to ask around.
Hope this helps!


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

thank you fee, it really has. i use a product called nupro silver which has everything in it as far as supplements go, so i would be fine on the patties.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

The opening paragraph, Improving Your Dogs Life with Natural and Raw Food Diets, contained so many fallacies and myths I cringed to even look at the recipe! I wouldn't trust anything these people are promoting.

I think it is funny that they claim, "We can get close to this diet from a balance of raw meat and vegetables in the same 75/25 percent mix.
Canned or manufactured dog foods are insufficient to give your dog a balanced diet to be healthy. They have chemical preservatives and grain that are indigestible and are mostly a poor source for energy and are deficient in vitamins especially after baking"

which is totally untrue, but yet when you read their instructions on how to make the raw food they say to feed "Breakfast from one of the Natura EVO dry foods"

The recipe for the patties is far from balanced. You cannot substitute proteins like they claim, '4 lbs Ground meats – beef and/or lamb and/or chicken or turkey' and have a balanced recipe. All meats are different and will provide the diet with different nutrients. I am sure it sorely lacking in calcium among lots of other things.

The patties sound to me like a treat to round of the balanced kibble diet the dog would receive in the morning which they claim would never work anyways! What a joke.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

Natalie of course is right that we have to feed a wide variety of proteins. 

In addition, I find it amusing that they reference Dr. Billinghurst. I bet he would cringe to see his name attached to this diet. Buy "Give Your Dog a Bone." Read Chapter 7. Billinghurst outlines all of the benefits that bone provides in that chapter, and he says dogs must EAT bone. Not gnaw on it to keep his teeth clean, but ingest it. 

Then, while you're at the bookstore, take a look at Richard Pitcairn, DVM's book "Natural Health of Cats and Dogs" (Dr. Pitcairn was one of the leaders of the natural diet movement). He says in Chapter 3: 



> Quotelease do not presume that feeding your pet milk with every meal means you can omit bone meal or other calcium supplements. To be used properly in the body, calcium must be provided in a specific ration to phosphorous. Cats and * dogs require such high amounts of calcium that the amount in milk is just about enough to balance the phosphorous in the milk itself. But that level of calcium is not enough to balance the high levels in meats* ...Bones provide much more calcium, and they are the natural way that predators achieve this balance."


pg. 39 in the 3rd revised and update edition. Emphasis mine.

The recipe for these patties doesn't even include egg shell, which at least is a good source of calcium. (In the video, the guy sets aside the shell.)

I would never consider this a balanced diet for my dogs. I believe that a premium commercial diet (kibble/canned) is far more balanced and complete. Just because a diet "feels good," doesn't mean it is good. And this diet is *not * a good diet. 

I often say to BARF feeders, when they get upset because their vets don't believe in raw diets, that I'm sympathetic to vets because there's some crazy stuff out there, especially on the internet. This is a great example. Sorry. I just don't know how to put it nicely and still make my point -- but you're not doing your dog any good feeding him this diet.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

If you got a ground mixture of meat AND bone with which to form the patties then the patties would be more nutritionally complete. But yes, dogs NEED bone. Eggshells just aren't enough as an eggshell is simply pure calcium whereas bones have much more to them.

CrazyboutGSDs, what you may have to do is invest in a meat and bone grinder (one that CAN handle bone) to make your own grinds. Once you have that, I think you can easily make patties that are nutritionally adequate, if missing the teeth-cleansing goodness. You can even purchase ground meat/bone/organ mixtures online such as from Hare Today. If you get something bony like chicken necks you can grind in some beef heart or pork meat for variety, grind up fish, grind up anything. You just need to have those bones in there.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=968330&page=1

I see you have already found the thread about grinders.







Yes, dogs need bone, the whole bone, and not just the recreational chew bone.









Good bones would be chicken backs (spine and ribcage), chicken necks (not sure if the grinders will handle turkey necks), chicken wings, etc. You can go with stronger bones depending on the type of grinder you purchase.


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## Fee (Jul 4, 2004)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

I just want to clarify something... would I feed that way a 'normal' dog - no - like I said I am feeding BARF and this wasn't meant to be a main diet. However I'd like to tell our story since we are an extreme case and this may be helpful to others whose dog have a severe colon problem.

Our GSD had a stricture and a complicated colon surgery (never done before) to safe her life. Her 'exit' is by far smaller than a normal GSD has. Even if you grind the bones is has the same consisentancy of stool as on BARF which I cannot 'liquify' enough with stool softener (which she has to be on high doses for the rest of her life anyways) for her to be able to eliminate on her own.

I have been doing the raw patties only the past two months but feeding this concept for 15 months now! Before I just froze and thawed the meat and added the veggies fresh every day plus all the supplements. Now I do those patties to free up time.

Like I said, I have been doing this now long-term and the dog is healthy again. This was the only way to leave her on raw. She has been on raw since puppy (raw fed parents) and we tried canned GI food, low-residue cooked food etc. which just didn't agree with her and you could see it in her coat etc.

My two holistic vets and the internist at Univ. Clinic approves the way I am feeding in our case - they were not concerned about the calcium (only coming from egg shells) as she is an adult dog. She still gets monthly check-ups at Univ. Clinic and plenty of blood tests and (knock on wood) she is healthy and looks and acts it too.

I realize we are not the norm but wanted to share our experience in case someone else has a weird case


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## Fee (Jul 4, 2004)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

not sure how to edit but had typo - meant to say: consistency of stool


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

Fee, has anyone suggested bone meal? That's what many owners who feed home-cooked diets use. Dr. Pitcairn recommends it. My internist recommends it as well.


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## Kaylas Mom (Oct 6, 2007)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

I like the idea of the raw patties, Now can I feed those patties with kibble, and do I cook the sweet potato, or are the veggies also raw. The only thing I feed raw are bones, so I have no clue.LOL


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## Fee (Jul 4, 2004)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*

3K9Mom, yes I have used bone meal in the past and we have switched over to the egg shells as the bone meal made too much of a sticky mess with the stool softener etc. she is getting. Calcium in any form will firm up the stool somehwhat. We had to find a source which works for her unusual condition and it was extremely difficult to find the right combo.

I do not feed cooked, I fed raw. If I remember rigthly Dr. Pitcairn speaks of all calcium sources in his book - it has been a long time since I read it - egg shell being one of them. Anyways, like I said I have been feeding raw 14 years now, I am European and have grown up with raw fed dogs and we have been feeding the modified-raw pattie-concept for a long time, long enough to see if there was a problem which thankfully there is not. 

She gets many supplements and herbs specific to her condition and to balance patties. She is under the care of a very large Univ. Vet Team and two holistic docotors all of which are versed in raw and see no problem feeding this way, in fact they are happy I do. 
I am not giving advice to anyone what to do, it's best to consult a Vet versed in nutrition but we had a very ,very complex case and we had to find a way of food for her to be able eliminate herself (texture/size/firmness was a huge factor in our case - sorry to be so graphic and also food she can assimilate. It took some time of trial and errors and was not easy but luckily we now have 'perfected' it for her

Kayla's mom: there was a video with the patties... not sure of the link but you can google. I use the veggies raw but use the sweet potatoes cooked - not sure what the original recipe says. I have modified them to our needs, we are not the norm as our dog has a complicated colon issue so the cooked sweet potatoe helps to make 'things' slide out easier for her. When I was feeding her BARF she had raw sweet potatoes on occassion. 

The patties will make a nice treat/addition to the kibble for your dog.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: RECEIPE FOR RAW PATTIES*



> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomNatalie of course is right that we have to feed a wide variety of proteins.


Hey, wait, I didn't say that nor do I believe that. The rest of your post though was spot on!

I believe that a dog has a set requirement for nutrients and that the dog can achieve balance through knowing those requirements and knowing whats in the food you are feeding and filling in any gaps with supplements. This sounds like what Fee is doing through the help of a nutritionist. This is not what the pattie recipe is doing though.

And I also don't think a dog needs bone. A dog needs calcium and phos which is what the bones primarily provide, but can be given through other sources like mentioned- bone meal, egg shells, over the counter supplements. . .

Meat patties like the one sited could be good if more thoroughly researched and supplemented to fill in gaps like what Fee is doing.


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