# Opinions on this breeding/pedigree?



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

I won't say too much, as I don't want to jinx myself, but I'd just like anyone to offer up some opinions on this pairing.

Sire: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/517638.html









Dam is an untitled female. She's not on the database, but her sire is a son of Olymp Policia & a grandson of Pluto z Pohranicni Straze. Her dam is Brona z Zlataku SchH2, IPO2, ZVV1, daughter of Tom z Pohranicni Straze.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Why is the dam untitled?


----------



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

hasn't competed yet?

I'm only interested in lineage and a dog's actual working ability, really. I don't breed Schutzhund dogs. We health test all our dogs and are very selective with our pairings. However, we breed strictly to produce working police K9's, and don't sell many puppies to the general public. Police departments don't care about titles.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

w/o a title as proof of working ability - how is the dogs ability judged or evaluated? just based on lineage?

sorry to derail your post, just curious.
i'd think that law enforcement dogs especially would want as solid of proof as possible.

eta: also noticing several missing hip scores...


----------



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

the dog's ability is judged by individuals who are qualified to evaluate it for themselves. I would never buy a dog, titles or not, without seeing it work myself. That's the solid proof. Which is also the reason why every puppy that comes out of titled parents, with titled dogs all throughout their ancestry, will not be a working quality dog.


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I don't know anything AT ALL about bloodlines. But I personally would not even be looking at them until I had a bitch that had proven herself through enough work and age that she would have gotten a title or two, and gotten all the health checks done.
I'm told my girl shows great promise after six months of training. But I have not gotten to the part yet where the cracks in her character would show up yet because she's too young. I am just beginning to get a look at her strengths and weaknesses. How would I know who to pair her with should I decide to breed if I really did not KNOW her?
But I am not a breeder and probably will never will be. So take that for what it's worth


----------



## aaron.whitney (Oct 7, 2007)

My opinion of that breeding would be BYB. I agree that seeing a dog's working ability is solid proof to back up a title but if that ability is there why no title? Without more information the first two reasons that come to mind is the dog it too young to get a title and too young to breed or the dog really does not have the ability to get a working title.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

all the naysayers scoff at titles and say that you don't need them to breed...the pedigree on this dog is not bad - it has alot of well known dogs, dogs who had titles, produced titles....I have an Alk daughter who has super super social and environmental nerves and is the dam of some very strong dogs.

But not every littermate is the same and each is an individual - working and titling a dog helps weed through the dogs who do not have the strength required (character, nerves and ability) - like it or not, and I know it is not foolproof - and breeding untitled dogs is alot more of a crap shoot than titled....take that out several generations and you aren't even in the game anymore....

Even though there are exceptions (as I am tired of everyone using the Sieger show, and other such venues for naysaying), titles are a good indication that you have a better chance of getting a dog closer to the ideals of the standard....breeders who train, work, title and live with their dogs are going to have a better handle on what they are producing....

Lee


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Britney, in answer to your question......first you donot have enough information about the female for anybody to assess the breeding. Now based on the male's pedigree I have good news and bad news. The good news is he is linebred 3-4,4 on Klara z PS and Klara was known as a super strong bitch in the working area and in temperament. I don't know your male but I am willing to bet he is a very strong dog in the work. The bad news is that Klara was also known as a dog that is behind many dogs with questionable hips. So....a dog that is linebred that strongly on Klara would have to be bred to a dog that is known as a hip improver and then it is still dicey. Now this male may have OFA good hips but I still would not breed him to another Czech dog and probably only to a dog that is linebred on Aly Vordinsteinwald very closely. This is why hip certification means nothing to me by itself, because if you don't know the history of Klara and look at this male as titled and hip certified, you will probably have a lot of dyplastic pups. Since you don't give any specifics, like a pedigree on the female, a knowledgable person wouldn't take a chance on this breeding. As a side note, Klara is in the pedigrees of many influential and great Czech dogs as she brought a lot to the table...just not hips,but she contributed more positive than negative, she just shouldn't be linebred on.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Also Britney,
Just based on pedigree, I think this dog is a strong working dog, others on the list don't think the pedigree tells you enough to make breeding decisions....could you comment on this male dog's temperament and working ability....Thanks!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Why don't you add the females pedigree to the database? This would be very helpful to everyone.


----------



## Malinoid (Jan 28, 2008)

On paper the male seems nice. My concern would be the dam's side. I've seen a few pups out of Olymp and was not very impressed & I also know the guy that handled Olymp for his sport titles. The fact that Tom z Ps is there, assuming it's he Cordon An-Sat son, is positive. If I were you, I'd like to see both parents in person, especially the Dam, or at the least get some video of each parent doing some specific work at your request.

John Haudenshield


----------



## Malinoid (Jan 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BritneyPhasn't competed yet?
> 
> I'm only interested in lineage and a dog's actual working ability, really. I don't breed Schutzhund dogs. We health test all our dogs and are very selective with our pairings. However, we breed strictly to produce working police K9's, and don't sell many puppies to the general public. Police departments don't care about titles.


Police Dept's also don't care about breeding, but you do. Getting a pup from any breeding is a crapshot as to whether it'll develop into a decent sport dog, police dog, or more importantly, whether it'll ever end up being a good producer. If you're looking for breeding material, look for someting out of proven stock, older parents (who have some known production) & repeats of successful litters. Look at the parent's sibs, half-sibs, uncles, cousins, etc.

For example, I'm planning a Malinois breeding for later this year. The Sire is a police dog, from one of the most reknown kennels in Holland for KNPV/pedigreed malinois. His littermate brother is PH1, his 3/4 sister has produced 2 police dogs and a couple of PH1 dogs & every male dog in his pedigree has earned at least a PH1....many are PH1, PH2 & Obj.
My female is SchH1, trialing for SchH2 in December. Two of her half sibs have competed and won National & International IPO3 competitions, two others are working police dogs. I know of 4 of her full-sibs that are titled in SchH or French & Mondio Ring.

My goal is to produce police quality dogs, with SAR & Sport Dogs next in line.

John Haudenshield


----------

