# Would you Fundraise for your pet?



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Would you? Doesn't matter if it's to cover a surgery or for cancer. 

Would you Fundraise if you hadn't the funds to cover a Vetbill or would you feel bad and think it's wrong to go out and asker people you don't even know to give you money to keep your pet alive or to fix it up. 

What do you think justifies fundraising and what doesn't?

Would you make a difference between a shelter dog and a police/search and rescue or service dog because they have a purpose or do you think it's a living beeing and they all deserve to live or simply rehome the dog or put it to sleep just because it can't be worked.

If you already fundraised for the dog, why did you do it and did it pay off in the end or did the dog had to be put to sleep because the procedure did not work? Would you do it again?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Personally, I would not fundraise for one of my own dogs. I took on the responsibility it is mine. If I had a huge vet bill that I couldn't cover all at once, I know I could borrow the money from 'somewhere', or use a cc that I save for just that type of emergency.

I have no problem donating to say, a shelter or rescue, that has taken in an animal that is need of live saving med treatment.

I've never rehomed any of my animals, never plan to , they are here thru thick and thin, I wouldn't euthanize a dog because it couldn't be worked either.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Short answer = NO


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

If *I* didn't have the money for vet care for MY dogs I would not ask someone else to pay for it. I would sell everything I could, I would work out payment plans with a vet, I would take a second job.

I might ask for a loan from someone but I would not ask for donations - not for MY dog. When I got the dog I took on the responsibility of taking care of them. Even when both the husband and I were unemployed we managed to keep the dogs (7 of them) fed and had their health taken care of.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

What everyone else said.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

How do you think about people that actually do fundraise for their dogs?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

It depends on the "fundraise",,for example, if I went and say, knitted 100 scarf's to sell in order to help for a vet bill I had, I wouldn't consider that 'fundraising' for myself. Atleast I'm 'giving' something in order to raise money. I'm selling a product that will help me pay for my vet bill (I also wouldn't say I'm selling these scarf's to pay for my dogs vet bill )

However, if one put a can out looking for people to drop money in it to cover a vet bill, I would tell that person to get off their butt and get a job like the rest of us. 

It really depends alot on the circumstance for me whether I would donate or not.


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## rgollar (Dec 19, 2010)

I wouldn't do a fundraiser myself. But I would not hesitate to donate to someone else that was to help there animal. We are suppose to do anything possible to properly care for our animals. So if this is there last and only options I would have no problems donating.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> It depends on the "fundraise",,for example, if I went and say, knitted 100 scarf's to sell in order to help for a vet bill I had, I wouldn't consider that 'fundraising' for myself. Atleast I'm 'giving' something in order to raise money. I'm selling a product that will help me pay for my vet bill (I also wouldn't say I'm selling these scarf's to pay for my dogs vet bill )
> 
> However, if one put a can out looking for people to drop money in it to cover a vet bill, I would tell that person to get off their butt and get a job like the rest of us.
> 
> It really depends alot on the circumstance for me whether I would donate or not.


Well, isn't knitting scarfs and selling them kind of like having a job, just like working for dunkin donuts to cover the vet bills? It's kind of like self-employment for a purpose right?


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

I would not fundraise for my own dog but I wouldn't hesitate to help someone else out with vet bills _if_ I knew the person was doing the best they could but could still not cover the cost.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm fortunate enough to have a safety net (including good credit) should anything happen that I couldn't pay for (for my own or my animals' health care). However, some people don't have that luxury and I would not hesitate to help someone out personally, whether it was contributing through buying something or giving money directly to a vet. I have done that many time for dogs in rescue and I would do that for an individual as well if I had extra money and the circumstances warranted it. 

I would want a fund set up through a vet's office though just to dismiss any possible accusations of impropriety. 

I just walked past a neighbor's house whose roof is literally falling apart. She is a very sweet senior who always gives Rafi a pat or a biscuit. I am right now looking for programs that would help her get a new roof for free.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

A facet of the issue is the legality of soliciting donations. From a tax perspective, it would be income, in most states and absolutely federal, unless the donation collector is a registered non-profit. Second, if not a registered 503c non-profit, it could simply be illegal in many local jurisdictions to solicit....and could therefore also be panhandling in effect.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Would it be awful to go door to door selling candy bars to help raise money to save ones pet if one couldn't afford the surgery or treatment? I don't think so, I know I wouldn't be upset if someone showed up at my door doing this. Although I have never heard of this before, I don't frown upon it either.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sure if you devote all your time knitting scarves I mean knitting scarves isn't something "I" could make a living at, it's not really steady employment , you might sell one a week or 20 a week..

Dunkin Donuts would be more of a steady work schedule knowing you come home with a paycheck each week..

Self employment is great, I LOVED being my own boss, when I petsat/trained,while I always had money coming in, it burned me out. 

Now I work part time, I can call in sick if I want, I can devote ALL my spare time to my dogs, and I do make alot of "stuff" that I sell on the side out of the place I work, heck I am making GOOD money selling canned stuff, salsa's, jellies, sauces..I also happen to knit scarves to keep my hands busy, and actually donate them to the homeless shelters..

The old adage is, you gotta spend some money to make money..If your interested in a way to make some money, pm me, I'd be glad to share my dog treat recipe, that I am telling you I made ALOT of money selling..

SORRY to go OT


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I wouldn't fundraise for my own dog. I am a terrible fundraiser. Even for rescues, where I volunteer, I have a very hard time asking for donations. I have no problem donating my own time and money - just not comfortable soliciting from others.

I remember a neighbor telling me that he had once solicited funds for his dog. I'm not sure of the specifics. I believe the ailment may have been kidney related - possible dialysis, but not sure. He also volunteered with a rescue, so may have been aided through them, in the fundraising endeavor. What I do remember is that a LOT of money was raised - so much, that a fund was created to help other dogs in need.

In that case, it seems that what was started for one dog and owner in need really paid off for other dogs as well.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If my search dog was injured durnig a search i may accept help for that....but not for a medical condition or non work related injury


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

So what about police dogs? Do you think it's justified for them to raise the money even though they didn't get injured in the line of duty? Aren't both doing a public service just that one dog is privately owned while the other one isn't?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> If my search dog was injured durnig a search i may accept help for that....but not for a medical condition or non work related injury


But wouldn't your SAR team have insurance or funds set aside to specifically cover such a scenario? That's not the same as fundraising, in my view. 

To me, fundraising is actively soliciting donations from others. Getting another job, knitting scarves, etc, is just another way of earning more money to cover bills.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> But wouldn't your SAR team have insurance or funds set aside to specifically cover such a scenario? That's not the same as fundraising, in my view.
> 
> To me, fundraising is actively soliciting donations from others. Getting another job, knitting scarves, etc, is just another way of earning more money to cover bills.


We don't and according to the rest of the team, they think, even on the job, it's their responsibility and not the teams, if I got that right and did not misunderstand. I disagree. I'd love to have a fund set aside for scenarios like that. It happened in the "line of duty" and just because it's a privately owned dog doesn't mean you can't accept help if something happened during a search. Afterall you are already putting so much money into training and doing what you do... it's still a public service and honestly I think the public can give a little back to those dogs whether or not they are privately owned or not. I'd rather donate to a SAR, Police or Therapy dog than a pet dog.

It's always said that they are tools. Well, if you can raise money to buy a trailer, truck or gear for SAR you can raise money to fix that kind of tool as well!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would not "fundraise" if that means soliciting donations to cover my personal bills. I would use my credit card, get another credit card, or beg for a small loan from a family member.

I would "fundraise" if that means doing side jobs to cover the costs. Heck I already do that to cover dog training! I do web design on the side to help with my entry fees or if I'm saving for a new puppy.

I don't contribute to campaigns soliciting donations but I of course would help a friend or family member in need as best I could.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No, I would not fund raise for a vet bill for my own dog. I did help a friend raise funds for a dog she rescued. The reason she needed help is the dog had both her front legs broken, presumably from a car, and the owners were going to put her down. The vets refused to euthanize a 1 year old doberman so called my friend who took on the responsibility. Between doberman911, raising funds locally, friends donating money, and the vet donating the surgery (which was about $4000 alone), the dog was saved.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I would "fundraise" if that means doing side jobs to cover the costs. Heck I already do that to cover dog training! I do web design on the side to help with my entry fees or if I'm saving for a new puppy.


Agreed. There should always be given something in return. Like an auction or selling cookies, or knitting scarfs i.e.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

It's a personal decision, not one I would pass judgement on if someone felt the need to do it for their pet (working or not). I have money for whatever surgeries/treatments my pets would ever need. But I am lucky. No everyone is. If I were broke, I'm still not sure I could bring myself to ask for assistance. That's not how I was raised. I think it's fine for other people, but I was taught from early on that once I accept responsibility for someone/something, I must not ask for help later if it gets to be too much.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think fundraising is a great idea and
it doesn't matter if it's a pb or mixed breed.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I had a horse involved in a trailer accident years ago. Her vet bill was through the roof, including an entire months stay at the clinic. 

My equine friends knew that I could barely keep my head above the water paying those bills. I didn't have a 'fundraiser' but I did sell some of my personal items to raise money and my equine friends helped me source out people who'd be interested in those items. I was able to pay for all of her medical requirements. Sadly, after four months we lost her, but not due to lack of funds.


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## King&Skylar (Jun 3, 2010)

Nope. I wouldn't even think about asking other people for money for MY pet. That's what my emergency savings are for, that I save _*before*_ I get another pet and continually add to as I am able.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

King&Skylar said:


> Nope. I wouldn't even think about asking other people for money for MY pet. That's what my emergency savings are for, that I save _*before*_ I get another pet and continually add to as I am able.


We used to have an emergency fund and we still have but it's not large enough to cover the costs and the vet doesn't do payment plans. If Judge hadn't done so well on Glucosamine I couldn't have waited until hubbies deployment. We shipped four dogs, had to pay for my Greencard, which is very expensive. Ran into a slumlord, lost thousands of dollars and then decided to buy because we didn't want to lose more money. 

We are still recovering from everything and now our stove broke down, the car needs to be fixed, hubby is leaving for deployment and I'm pretty sure once he's gone there is more stuff coming up that'll break down. 

So if I had to fundraise? I WOULD! However I wouldn't walk from door to door, I'd sell stuff, cookies, cakes, I'd learn how to sow stuff and pretty much earn every single penny for his surgery. If you call it Fundraiser or Self-Employment... I don't care, it's earning/raising funds. I got him for a specific purpose and just because you go through a rough time doesn't mean you should get rid of the dogs. 

I would not get rid of any of my dogs just because we go through a rough period. That period will pass and it is not so bad that we can't take care of them. We do have income but I wouldn't drive ourselves into debt, sell the car or pay 20 000 Dollars in treatmen either. However, I don't see anything wrong by raising funds. 

So many view their dogs as kids. If your child had cancer and you couldn't come up with the funds, wouldn't you go on the street and raise those funds to do everything possible to help your child? 

Who knows, maybe you could raise so much money that in the end you can donate it to other people or a charity like a shelter or actually open a non-profit fund for search dogs that are not dedicated to a single organization but to search dogs in general. 

I raised funds for troops and military families in need and I'd raise money for ourselves as well. We are a military family and we are no different from those I used to raise money for. Heck I'd raise money for you or donate if I could. If I can donate to a shelter I can donate to a private person as well. Everybody deserves help. I'd rather donate to a search or police dog but everybody, in this economy, deserves help. 

I was raised like Leah Eddy. 13 years ago I would have never asked for help. I used to be a very proud person. But honestly, there is no shame in asking for help. Sometimes you just don't have a choice. 

However, it all depens on the case and circumstances.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

To me fundraising for your dog equals begging. 

If someone knocked on my door and asked me for money so their dog could have surgery I'd turn them away just like I do with the kids asking for money to play hockey.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Mrs K are you trying to figure out ways to raise money for Judge?


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

Luckily so far we have never really had any problems paying for a vet. And if we did it was only 50 to 80$ and my inlaws lent us that. But if it was over 1000$ we would need help. And I'm sure my in laws would help but wouldent have it all. And you bet. Your bottom if it was life or death or they were in pain and needed surgery. I would Beg, steal, or Barrow to save my dogs life. Ok maybe not steal but I would do what ever I could to save/help them. So yes I would fund raise if I had to would I want to no. Who wants to admit they need help and ask strangers for $ not me but I would!


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I fundraise quite often. For the last 10 years or so I've worked with rescue dogs and for the last 2-3 years fundraising for Assistance (Service) Dogs. Everything from bakesales to dog shows to yard sales and more. All funds are run through one of several 501(c)(3)s.

My own dogs are my responsibility. If needed I would sell my TV or some of my furniture before asking *a stranger* to pay toward my bills. If needed stop training lessons for awhile. Eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and brown bag it to work. Give up the outside entertainment or buying new clothes. Clear out things from a closet, garage, basement and add homemade items to sell at a yardsale. 

The costs of doing public service are carried by many of us - that is part of volunteering. 

Appliances breaking down are a fact of life. Wash can be done in the bathtub and hung up to dry. Oven go out then don't bake. Stove go out use the microwave or buy a small hotplate or if you have one use your grill. A healthy adult (with the ability to work and care fully for themself) can work around such things without going out into their community expecting people to cover their expenses because they did not plan for emergencies or things as we all know stuff happens in life.


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## rgollar (Dec 19, 2010)

Well said ChristenHolden.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Mrs K are you trying to figure out ways to raise money for Judge?


No, we'll have the money once hubby goes on deployment. We already decided to pay the surgery off of that money. However, making some money on the side from home will give me something to do while he's gone. So maybe that dog treat thing is not such a bad idea to earn money and build that emergency fund back up, plus I'd like to have money once hubby gets back home for him to spend 

We've just had the discussion within the team and I was kind of bummed that that they'd actually put a dog like Judge to sleep rather than paying for the surgery. When it first showed up I asked the head of the team if it was okay to fundraise for Judge since he was an active dog of the team and he said it wouldn't be an issue at all. But I guess my team member have a different opinion. Everybody is entitled to his opinion but we are talking 2-5 thousand dollars, not 10 000 + which is where I'd draw the line, and a good chance to get him back to work. Since he's just a year old, and he could possibly work 8 years, he would actually work that money back in by bringing closure to families and you can't put a price tag on that. 

And even if he can't actively work, he could still do presentations and go out to fundraise money for the team and earn the surgery that way.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ILGHAUS said:


> I fundraise quite often. For the last 10 years or so I've worked with rescue dogs and for the last 2-3 years fundraising for Assistance (Service) Dogs. Everything from bakesales to dog shows to yard sales and more. All funds are run through one of several 501(c)(3)s.
> 
> * My own dogs are my responsibility. If needed I would sell my TV or some of my furniture before asking a stranger to pay toward my bills. If needed stop training lessons for awhile. Eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and brown bag it to work. Give up the outside entertainment or buying new clothes. Clear out things from a closet, garage, basement and add homemade items to sell at a yardsale. *
> 
> ...


Thats fundraising. You are raising your own funds that way.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think it would be a good idea for the teams to have an emergency fund if the dog was hurt during a search. But Judge was hurt long before you started SAR so I can understand why they wouldn't be interested in paying for it. Or maybe I misunderstood your post regarding Judge and your team.

As far as fundraiser ideas, we did a raffle for a box that DH made and for a bracelet that my friend had. She sold a lot of her things to raise money. She had treats in the vets office, and still does, to help raise money. That money now goes into a fund for other animals. It's her way of giving back.  So, is your team interested in having an emergency fund? Do they raise money to help pay for the cost of trips, training or equipment?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

That is the thing. Since it is an invisible injury you don't know when they got hurt. It could have been during the training, at home, in Austria, during the flight. You just don't know. I think it was while he was already in training but actually at home. 

I still think, that it would be a good thing to have something in place for dogs in training and operational dogs. Especially when it can be fixed. These dogs are already so expensive and it would be stupid to put them down over an amount like that, especially when they can be fixed and patched up, again. Doesn't matter if they got hurt in training, at home or during a search. If a member of the team has issues to come up as a fun the team should stick together and raise the money and I am not saying that because of Judge. We'll have the money for him but I just feel like it's the right thing to do since those dogs are actually working and saving people. 

Now, that being said, there should be standards that have to be met. At least one year on the team, attendance requirements, met goals etc. 

I look at it kind of like a health insurance for anyone that is insured via his/her company. If you get hurt at home, hit by a car or injure yourself, the insurance still pays even though you weren't on the job. It should be the same for search dogs. We put them to work, they don't have a choice and there should be an insurance in place. Those dogs are way to expensive in gas, food, vet-care, training as if we can't have them insured. 

Heck, I already dumped more than 3000 Dollars into Indras training within the past nine months. If you have an operational dog with multiple finds is priceless and not paying 2000 Dollars for a surgery just because you are too proud to ask for help is just plain stupid... 



Jax08 said:


> I think it would be a good idea for the teams to have an emergency fund if the dog was hurt during a search. But Judge was hurt long before you started SAR so I can understand why they wouldn't be interested in paying for it. Or maybe I misunderstood your post regarding Judge and your team.
> 
> As far as fundraiser ideas, we did a raffle for a box that DH made and for a bracelet that my friend had. She sold a lot of her things to raise money. She had treats in the vets office, and still does, to help raise money. That money now goes into a fund for other animals. It's her way of giving back.  So, is your team interested in having an emergency fund? Do they raise money to help pay for the cost of trips, training or equipment?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

To me, fund-raising means raising money for someone ELSE'S dog - not mine.

I just spent 5 hours standing outside in the rain and cold running the lure for the local Doberman rescue group. The weekend before I spent 7 hours standing out in the heat and sun (getting burnt to a crisp) running the lure for a local rescue.

Getting money for my OWN animals is not fund-raising and I wouldn't expect people in my club to help.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

People who do SAR don't get paid for the time they take off of work to go on searches. They don't get paid for the costs involved in getting to a search. They don't get paid for the training it takes to get a dog to the level of SAR.

They go into it KNOWING that they will not be paid for any of it. They do it because they want to and they accept the risks that come with it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ya know...recycling is a great way to raise money also. NY does have a nickel deposit on every bottle.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> To me, fund-raising means raising money for someone ELSE'S dog - not mine.
> 
> I just spent 5 hours standing outside in the rain and cold running the lure for the local Doberman rescue group. The weekend before I spent 7 hours standing out in the heat and sun (getting burnt to a crisp) running the lure for a local rescue.
> 
> Getting money for my OWN animals is not fund-raising and I wouldn't expect people in my club to help.



I absolutely agree Lauri. But in addition to that, I would not have a problem giving money to an SAR team for an emergency fund for a dog that was hurt during a search or for training. It's kind of like the volunteer fire departments that have chicken bbq's, that I gave all my soda bottles too. To me it's an investment in our volunteer organizations.

However, I would not want that fund to pay for medical bills that the owner should be responsible for so there would have to be a group that would decide when the money was used. There has to be a line drawn on when it's used.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Thats fund raising. You are raising your own funds that way.


It's a translation or English language thing Mrs K. 

Fundraising is usually a word people use when they're trying to raise money for specific organization, group or cause. (political or charitable usually) This would be called a fundraiser.

When you try to raise funds, like for Judge, by selling your own things or working at a job, fundraising wouldn't be the right word. In other words, raising funds and fundraising take on two different meanings. 

Don't you just love the English language??


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's interesting. You know, your dog could be that "Someone elses dog" 

Why is it okay to do it for other dogs but not for your own dog if you don't have the funds and can't come up with them no matter what you do?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> People who do SAR don't get paid for the time they take off of work to go on searches. They don't get paid for the costs involved in getting to a search. They don't get paid for the training it takes to get a dog to the level of SAR.
> 
> They go into it KNOWING that they will not be paid for any of it. They do it because they want to and they accept the risks that come with it.



Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can't ask for help. Especially when a dog gets hurt on a search! You can't just say that you know what you got yourself into. It's still a public service and Jax hit the nail. 




> I absolutely agree Lauri. But in addition to that, I would not have a problem giving money to an SAR team for an emergency fund for a dog that was hurt during a search or for training. It's kind of like the volunteer fire departments that have chicken bbq's, that I gave all my soda bottles too. To me it's an investment in our volunteer organizations.
> 
> However, I would not want that fund to pay for medical bills that the owner should be responsible for so there would have to be a group that would decide when the money was used. There has to be a line drawn on when it's used.


I agree. The dogs are members of a non-profit team. If you can raise money for equipment you can raise money for the dogs too because they are just as much a tool an equipment as a truck, van or trailer. 

They may not be owned by the team but it's sad when a dog is out there saving lives and you can't even get help to get the dog fixed up if it gets injured durin a search or training. 

*The police is a government organization and the government should pay for the police dogs and they go out and raise funds to pay for vet bills so *SAR teams should be able to do the same, ESPECIALLY since it's done on your own dime.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Not sure how it works with military spouses who are not citizens (I'm guessing that you're not since you haven't been here very long), but are you able to get a job and earn money that way?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

But my point that the fund shouldn't be used for expenses that the owner should pay for is just as valid. I wouldn't be very happy to hear that the money from the local FP BBQ went to buy tires for the fire chief's personal truck instead of going to buy equipment for the fire department, even though that truck is how he got to the fire.

If it is an injury that was sustained prior to joining the team or sustained not while training or working then it is not appropriate to use funds from the team. People would not be willing to give money for that. 

Personal responsibility is huge in the American culture and a sure fire way to turn people off, thus Lauri's comment that she would raise money for someone else's dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Our team has had discussions about money and donations and dogs and came to this point.

No donations go towards any expenses related to the dogs or personal expenses of the team members-and as a 501(c)3 it would be hard to do that anyway as all expenditures are accounted for. 

The dogs are our personal property and our responsibility. Money goes to infrastructure such as radios, computers, mapping sofware, safety gear, and bringing in trainers or seminar assitance. We have talked about gasoline reimbursement and even that...no.....so we often carpool to a search and usually those who have the money and bigger vehicles just don't take money towards gas anyway from the others...

Because we cannot tie into a state insurance pool (there is none for SAR in SC) 100% of our liability insurance is on us. It is our single biggest bill and the one we struggle the most to meet (over $2500 a year) and we do raise money for that --Members can choose to buy their own dog health insurance outside of the team.

I have to reflect on the value of the SAR dog since I have a cadaver dog who has made multiple finds (dead of course) and have been on live searches where lives were saved by the dog team. 

No you *can't* put a cost on that and it is the single biggest return for all we do. Even to be out there and NOT find the missing loved one (a body on a speculative search) and have the family come up to you and hug you and thank you just for being there and trying...THAT pays back tenfold what it costs.

Honestly, it sucks away a lot of my money-we tell new members to be prepared to spend $3-5K per year. *The reality is that I could spend the same amount of money more wiselely and do MORE good for humankind than I am doing now so it is not just about the altruism (and to be honest -- I really think I could so I have to say it is a bit selfish*). I ENJOY this and probably personally get a heck of a lot more out of it than I give. 

I am afraid I would be in the same place with Judge as your team. He is not an operational dog with a lot of training behind him who could face some minor correction and be back at work.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That makes perfect sense, Nancy. Thank you for explaining all the things the money is used for. Everyone always forgets about the liability insurance that the organizations have to pay for, including dog rescues. That chews up a huge amount of resources.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I think it would honestly depend on the circumstances.

My friend Cindy has a rescue pug that she had for about two years before he was diagnosed with cancer. They started treatments that ended up being so costly (but did work!) that she and her new husband did not go on their honeymoon, used up their emergency fund, and refinanced their home. They put over $26,000 into the dog's care and treatment before they started asking for help, and then they started a ChipIn page to help pay for things because they simply could no longer make things work on their own.

I think they're more than justified in asking for help and fundraising for their own dog after having used up the resources they themselves had at their disposal. I mean, who has thousands of dollars laying around to spare? But their pup is a member of their family and the treatments helped (he has now been cancer free for a year). 

I also see nothing wrong with SAR teams or police associations raising money to help pay medical bills for their dogs, whether still working or retired. Matter of fact, the Vermont Police Canine Association has Lacy's Fund, which is a fund set up to pay the medical bills of retired police K-9's. I don't donate thousands but I do donate to Lacy's Fund at the Iron Dog every year - they sell T-shirts, patches, wrist bands, etc. to support their cause.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Mrs.K said:


> Would you? Doesn't matter if it's to cover a surgery or for cancer.
> 
> Would you Fundraise if you hadn't the funds to cover a Vetbill or would you feel bad and think it's wrong to go out and asker people you don't even know to give you money to keep your pet alive or to fix it up.
> 
> ...


Personally I wouldn't, because I'm a very antisocial person and that would involve a lot of people orientated things. 

I don't think fundraising is the same as begging at all. I've been to a fund raiser for a dachshund that was mauled by her friends german shepherd. She needed $2000 for medical bills. It cost I think $10 or $20 per person and you got a large meal, dessert, a free drink at the bar and you were entered into a raffle that raffled off donated items. 

People fundraise for all sorts of things, like to go on a trip or new uniforms. To save an animal's life is definitely one of the better reasons.

A police or S&R dog would probably get more money because they help save human lives, so I think people would be more inclined to help save the life of an animal that saves lives vs a house pet that the owner would just really miss.

The friend who did fundraising for her dog ended up getting almost enough to cover all of the vet bills, and he's still alive, so it was definitely worth it.

To sum it all up, I think it's a good idea.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> They may not be owned by the team but it's sad when a dog is out there saving lives and you can't even get help to get the dog fixed up if it gets injured durin a search or training.


I didn't know judge was an actual search dog who had completed successful finds? Hadn't you only recently joined the team when he began having problems? I am surprised that you would think the team would be able to help pay for his medical expenses. Everyone falls on rough times. I know that we personally were in NO position to spend around 7 grand on our deceased Kodi, but we paid some up front, put some on care credit, some on visa, and we paid it off. We paid the majority of it off after he was already deceased. Those aren't fun bills to receive when you don't even have the dog anymore. You do what you have to do for your dog, but in the end - it's your dog and your responsibility. 

Unfortunately, there are tons of great dogs out there and all their lives can't be saved. There isn't even enough money to go around to help the dogs who have actually "done" things (saved lives, etc) much less those who were just in training or were hopeful prospects.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Personally, I think if people can ask for money to help their kids sports teams/band/chorus group/cheerleader squad buy new uniforms/go to a state competition/out of town camps or trips, etc. then someone can ask for money to help save their dog. I would rather donate to someone who needs help to save their beloved pet then to help some kid get new cheerleader uniforms any day. But that is just me.


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

I *LIKE* this!!!!!! :thumbsup: Personally, I think if people can ask for money to help their kids sports teams/band/chorus group/cheerleader squad buy new uniforms/go to a state competition/out of town camps or trips, etc. then someone can ask for money to help save their dog. I would rather donate to someone who needs help to save their beloved pet then to help some kid get new cheerleader uniforms any day. But that is just me. 

____


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Syaoransbear said:


> People fundraise for all sorts of things, like to go on a trip or new uniforms. To save an animal's life is definitely one of the better reasons.


True enough. A friend of mine had a fundraiser for new shoes and I contributed to that--although honestly, he was only asking for about $3 per person. So why not a pet's life, for cryin' out loud?

I'd love to do a fundraiser for myself, I've lost thousands and thousands since the fire destroyed my grooming shop, and we're fighting hard to stave off bankruptcy. But I just can't do it. Somehow it seems tacky. Could I do it for my dog's vet bills? No way, that's my responsibility.



> A police or S&R dog would probably get more money because they help save human lives, so I think people would be more inclined to help save the life of an animal that saves lives vs a house pet that the owner would just really miss.


Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I see people begging for money for their pet's veterinary bills on Craigslist all the time, and I find it incredibly tacky. Just straight up panhandling from total strangers, without offering anything in return. I'm guessing 9 out of 10 of these postings are scams anyway--but even if not, I kind of feel like people who can't afford their pet's care shouldn't own a pet. 

OTOH... there but for the grace of God go I.

So I have feelings of conflict about pet fundraisers. I don't want to see any animal suffer, but I also don't want to reward the irresponsible.

Now, if it's a police or SAR dog, that's a dog that contributes to society and keeps us safe, so definitely--let's fundraise the heck out of any who need it, especially if they were hurt in the line of duty! The way I see it, we kind of owe them.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I think its good, if something is offered in return preferably, AND if the dog has a chance of making it. For example, a client of our daycare had a dog that got paralyzed, and there was no chance he was going to get better. He was wearing diapers and such. She asked to put up a donation box, took donations from clients, and a month or so later put the dog down. In that situation, I don't think it's fair to ask people for money if there is no hope for the dog.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sandra, you already know how I feel about this.

I think it is very dishonest either way to use the angle of Judge being a "SAR dog." He was very young and had virtually no training under his belt when you stopped training him. I do not, under any circumstances, think that this approach should be used. Just because YOU are on a SAR team and had HOPES of training him does not make him a "SAR dog!"

The bottom line is that it is YOUR dog and YOUR responsibility. It is very odd to me that you are talking about fundraising before getting a job that can be used specificially pay for his surgery. You don't work at all right now, and it would only take a few months of you working even part time to have enough for it!

It's just wrong all around, I'm sorry.

Like I told you on the phone last night, IF Indra got hurt on an actual search, then maybe you can convince the team to use their "name" to fundraise for her. NOT on a dog that you did hardly any training on!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

And first off, police dogs are not OWNED by their handlers. They are owned, controlled by the police department. They are also considered "officers" themselves. The POLICE DEPARTMENT itself, not a CIVILIAN own it (in 90% of the cases). 

And if the PD didn't own it and some potential hanlder just went out and bought a puppy, NO I do not think that a "police prospect" that that trained for a couple months should have a surgery paid for like this.

I'm also not aware of fundraising for police dog vet bills. Perhaps it does happen, I just can't recall any time seeing it. That is usually part of a department's budget.

YOUR DOG, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Sandra, you already know how I feel about this.
> 
> I think it is very dishonest either way to use the angle of Judge being a "SAR dog." He was very young and had virtually no training under his belt when you stopped training him. I do not, under any circumstances, think that this approach should be used. Just because YOU are on a SAR team and had HOPES of training him does not make him a "SAR dog!"
> 
> ...


Justine, I said it already on the topic that I am not fundraising for him. We have the deployment money we can use, so there is no need. 

But if we didn't have it, I would probably be out there selling cookies to raise the money.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Maybe I am reading the thread differently than many of the posters here, but it sounds to me that Sandra already has a plan of how and when she is going to pay for Judge to have his surgery. At least I have been under the impression, both from what she posted here and what she's said in person, that she would be taking care of the surgery with the extra deployment money that her husband will be making once he heads overseas next month.

I read her posts more along the lines of thinking out loud - what _if _a SAR dog was hurt while _working_ or while actively training? Would it be okay to fundraise to cover medical expenses? Should SAR teams carry some kind of insurance or have some kind of fund put aside in case something happens? It's a valid question...

SAR is a volunteer service and SAR volunteers spend time and money to do what they do. Okay ... but what about other volunteer services and organizations? 

Many (if not most) provide some kind of insurance for their volunteers that will cover them should something happen while they are working with that organization - whether they are training or at a meeting or actually performing their volunteer service. The Red Cross, for example, provides up to $10,000 in medical expenses to its volunteers should they become injured while "acting as an agent of the Red Cross". 

Wouldn't it make sense for other volunteer organization to carry similar policies to cover their personnel? And, in the case of organizations where the personnel consists of dog/handler teams, shouldn't the dog be covered as well?

I think those are some valid questions to address and this thread brings them up.

Now, of course, if Sandra is saying - "Hey, my dog had started training for SAR when he was hurt, so the SAR team should pay for it!" - then I agree with Justine that this probably won't go over well with the SAR team ... especially since she'd just started him *and* there's no proof that he injured himself during training or not. I also don't think that the SAR team would be in any way responsible.

But like I said, I did not read the thread that way?

One thing that did stand out to me is that several people basically said, "Well, why don't you get a job?" as a response to the thread as a whole, which - for one - doesn't seem to be addressing any of the questions raised in a general context (see what I said in the previous paragraphs) and it does come across as a bit rude as it assumes that Sandra isn't doing everything in her power *to* find a job.

For what it's worth, I don't think I ever talk to her without her saying something about a job she has applied for or an application she's picked up. She's applied everywhere from PetCo to Dunkin' Donuts, far as I'm aware. (I am one of her references, incidentally.)

I think to assume that she's not trying is a bit unfair. 

For those not aware, Sandra and her hubby only have one car, which means that she has no access to a vehicle while he is at work. Because he is a Soldier, his hours are often irregular and because they are in the last stages of getting ready to deploy, he needs the car to get around to make appointments, get issued equipment, etc. so it isn't like she can drop him off in the morning and leave him without a vehicle all day.

Aside from that, let me just point out that it's extremely hard to find a job in northern New York at the moment as the economy stinks and there are tons of applicants for any job that becomes available because everyone's trying to make ends meet, take on a second job, etc. It's possibly worse for military spouses as many businesses will not hire them because they figure "they'll just leave in a year or so, anyway".

Just my two cent.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Rerun said:


> I didn't know judge was an actual search dog who had completed successful finds? Hadn't you only recently joined the team when he began having problems? I am surprised that you would think the team would be able to help pay for his medical expenses. Everyone falls on rough times. I know that we personally were in NO position to spend around 7 grand on our deceased Kodi, but we paid some up front, put some on care credit, some on visa, and we paid it off. We paid the majority of it off after he was already deceased. Those aren't fun bills to receive when you don't even have the dog anymore. You do what you have to do for your dog, but in the end - it's your dog and your responsibility.
> 
> Unfortunately, there are tons of great dogs out there and all their lives can't be saved. There isn't even enough money to go around to help the dogs who have actually "done" things (saved lives, etc) much less those who were just in training or were hopeful prospects.


Good grief. I am NOT talking about Judge. I am talking about Search dogs in General. 

For the 5th time I am NOT fundraising for him. We are using the deployment money for his surgery. I am not sure how many times I've already said that on the topic.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Thank you, Chris. You hit the nail 



AbbyK9 said:


> Maybe I am reading the thread differently than many of the posters here, but it sounds to me that Sandra already has a plan of how and when she is going to pay for Judge to have his surgery. At least I have been under the impression, both from what she posted here and what she's said in person, that she would be taking care of the surgery with the extra deployment money that her husband will be making once he heads overseas next month.
> 
> I read her posts more along the lines of thinking out loud - what _if _a SAR dog was hurt while _working_ or while actively training? Would it be okay to fundraise to cover medical expenses? Should SAR teams carry some kind of insurance or have some kind of fund put aside in case something happens? It's a valid question...
> 
> ...


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I'm also not aware of fundraising for police dog vet bills. Perhaps it does happen, I just can't recall any time seeing it. That is usually part of a department's budget.


It's not terribly uncommon for police K-9 programs to be funded partially through public donations as many departments' annual operating budgets just don't allow for running and upkeep of a K-9 unit in these tough economic times.

There are plenty of news stories about departments holding fundraisers to add or sustain a K-9 program or pay medical bills for a dog injured in the line of duty or a dog that has gotten sick. Google will bring them up quickly for you, but here are two examples - one of a department fundraising to sustain their K-9 program and cover expenses (vet bills, food, etc.) and one from a department having a fundraiser (and asking for donations) to help a K-9 who developed seizures.

Fundraiser Friday for OCPD K-9, motorcycle units | General

Police dog suffering from seizures - Herald and News: News


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yep, and if the police, as a Government Organization, can do it. SAR Team should be able to do it too.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

AbbyK9 said:


> Wouldn't it make sense for other volunteer organization to carry similar policies to cover their personnel? And, in the case of organizations where the personnel consists of dog/handler teams, shouldn't the dog be covered as well?
> .


With WHAT money? We are all expected to raise funds for the team and some of us just give our share and others do things to bring in money. We also write for grants but pretty much most grant money is aimed at a different niche and, were it not for the AKC CAR program we would get precious little grant money. 

I know it is the same for many other teams. And THAT grant money is clearly spelled out how it is used and I know we never use it for team insurance (I dont think we even can)

We often have to dig into our own pockets to buy stuff for the team. That is just the reality. We do NOT get any public monies.
----

One other thing. THose police dogs work EVERY DAY. Those firefighters put out fires and handle calls EVERY DAY. We average maybe 30 calls a year and are not, I understand, that atypical. Some teams hardly ever get a call and real busy ones may get 70 or 80 a year. Some FEMA dogs will live their ENTIRE life without every deploying.

Our SAR teams are no funded by the governement because, from an actuarial basis we cost more than we are worth, else Fire and EMS would be running SAR dogs. We made the choice to do this. If my dogs belonged to the team they would be making decisions based on cost/benefit and a dog like Judge would be given to someone who could afford for his care or else his care would be absorbed by that member. 

In a time when some folks are saying SAR folks need to be paid professionals, held to federal standards, who can be sent from place to place with dogs owned by the govt, I am grateful that I even GET to work a dog, let alone worry about getting monies to do so.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> With WHAT money?


Please go back and read what I said. I was saying - if other volunteer organization cover their volunteers in case they get injured, why don't SAR organizations being that they are also volunteer? It shouldn't be too far of a stretch to offer insurance for the dogs, being that they're important working equipment ... no SAR with dogs without dogs. Just saying. Now whether anyone offers dog insurance for working dogs as a group / organization as they do for human volunteers ... I don't know. Maybe a niche for pet insurance companies to get into?

I think insurance would be a very good place to start for all teams - even if that only covered the handler in case of injury and not the dogs. Just about every volunteer organization I have ever belonged to had insurance for its volunteers in case something happened to them while they were volunteering for that organization. Even TDI provides insurance that would cover me should something happen while I visit with my TDI dog *and* while going to and from visits.

A lot of volunteer organizations charge an annual membership fee, most of which goes toward paying those insurance premiums. I don't see why SAR teams would not purchase insurance for their teams that would cover them should handlers get injured in training or on calls. Stands to reason that they are leaving themselves open for a lawsuit if they provide no such insurance and/or don't have a hold harmless agreement of some sort.

Granted, that's only handlers and not dogs, but it would be a start.

I guess I don't really understand why more SAR organizations *don't* fundraise or accept donations. (I see yours does, but not all do.) Being that most SAR groups are voluntary in nature, could they not be set up as non-profit organizations and accept donations? (Again, I see yours is a non-profit, but not all of them even consider going to that status.) 

For that matter, I don't often see SAR groups represented at large dog or community events where they could have a display and have a donation bin out ... not anywhere I've been or any events I've attended, anyway, except Paws in the Park in VA where the SAR group was set up *and* did have a donation tin out.



> Our SAR teams are no funded by the governement because, from an actuarial basis we cost more than we are worth, else Fire and EMS would be running SAR dogs.


FWIW, my local fire and EMS agencies largely run on donations, too. Well, fire more so than EMS. My EMS agency largely runs on a combination of billing the insurance companies for our services, particularly for transports (which are our bread and butter), and donations.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Nancy, that is why I said Fundraising. Specifically for that purpose. And I do believe that people would actually care.



> could they not be set up as non-profit organizations and accept donations?


Most teams are, that's the kicker. I know our team is non-profit.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

AbbyK9 said:


> Insurance would be a very good place to start - even if that only covered the handler in case of injury and not the dogs. Just about every volunteer organization I have ever belonged to had insurance for its volunteers in case something happened to them while they were volunteering for that organization. .......
> 
> 
> I guess I don't really understand why more SAR organizations *don't* fundraise or accept donations. Being that most SAR groups are voluntary in nature, could they not be set up as non-profit organizations and accept donations?............


Our VFIS policy covers personal injury -- it is very expensive, paid in part by member dues and in part by money we raise. But massive fundraising takes a ton of time and effort. I would rather spend that time training my dog or doing some other community education. Or for Gods' sake, raising money to get GPS bracelets for dementia patients!

We are always trying to get money for team expenses. It IS a bad economy with a lot of competition. We are a non profit. Just about all teams are. Magical money does not pour into our pockets...often we get donations from people who can scarecly afford it, grateful for having a family member found or effort expended..........Most grants really are not targeted for SAR type activities

Sandra, maybe that you have time to do a lot of fundraising for your team etc but with a full time job, I struggle to find dog training time and time to take off (unpaid) for searches, let alone do this. .... and that is pretty typical. ....... We do have one retired member and he is all over the place doing OTHER volunteer work as well not related to the team. Everyone else puts in their 40 hours a week and is out training at night and weekends rather than doing demos and fundraising.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

And our treasurer is a tax accountant and she is very clear about what is and is not acceptable use of monies donated to the team..........and money going to individual team members is a no no. ......there are very strict rules for non profits.... and dogs are "property" that belongs to individual members.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Not that it probably matters now but the Polling question was: Would you Fundraise for your pet?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> Maybe I am reading the thread differently than many of the posters here, but it sounds to me that Sandra already has a plan of how and when she is going to pay for Judge to have his surgery. At least I have been under the impression, both from what she posted here and what she's said in person, that she would be taking care of the surgery with the extra deployment money that her husband will be making once he heads overseas next month.


Well, I dunno. Sandra and I had an hour long conversation just last night related specifically to Judge and fundraising for him (among other things related to his care), so that was what I was going off of. That is actually how the phone call started-- basically if Judge was my dog would I do it?

It was a resounding NO. I said everything last night on the phone to her that I did here, so :shrug:. Simply going off of what was presented to me personally right before this thread was started. When I got off the phone with her, IMO, it was not at all a for sure thing that she was not still considering doing fundraising for him. So when I saw this thread started, I gave my opinion again.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> And our treasurer is a tax accountant and she is very clear about what is and is not acceptable use of monies donated to the team..........and money going to individual team members is a no no. ......there are very strict rules for non profits.... and dogs are "property" that belongs to individual members.


And that was another point that I told Sandra last night as well that just because her team director might be willing to do it, it does not mean that LEGALLY it is OK the way SAR teams are set up because the team does not have any legal claim or ownership of your dogs--they are just that, your personal dogs. 

I wasn't, however, 100% sure...but I thought that was the case and that fundraising under the auspices of being for "SAR Team Kool" could not in turn be used for someone's personal dog (team member or not--the TEAM does not own him). 

Really no different than the team paying for a human member's ACL injury they got when playing soccer (sorry, that comes to mind because my husband is on our team and actually just had ACL surgery). I mean, that would be a HUGE no-no.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well our treasurer is very conservative and it may be you can somehow cook the books......certainly many nonprofits (to whom I do not give) do that kind of thing. but doesn't make it right.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> I guess I don't really understand why more SAR organizations *don't* fundraise or accept donations. (I see yours does, but not all do.) Being that most SAR groups are voluntary in nature, could they not be set up as non-profit organizations and accept donations? (Again, I see yours is a non-profit, but not all of them even consider going to that status.)


But, SAR teams also have to be very careful about WHERE they accept donations from, especially if they work with or have an agreement with law enforcement. There is that little "conflict of interest" issue. Much better to be short on funds and not create a situation that reeks of impropriety.

Take for instance a missing woman. SAR teams far and wide come to help look for her. She isn't found. The husband says how much this all means to him, and he is so grateful for all the help he received and writes a $1000 check to each SAR team that helped look for her. 6 months later a hiker finds her remains in an area that was searched, and husband is found guilty of murder. How does that look?

It might seem silly, but these are very real issues. The same reason law enforcement agents can't accepts "gifts."


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Well our treasurer is very conservative and it may be you can somehow cook the books......certainly many nonprofits (to whom I do not give) do that kind of thing. but doesn't make it right.


I completely agree....I asked once about insurance for dogs and was more or less told the same thing. It's great you are using your dog, but the team does not OWN your dog, so it would not be ethical or right to try to get insurance covering the dogs by implying they are team property because they are absolutely NOT that.

There might be SAR teams out there that do own the dogs or do 'scam' this way...but I agree that any potential injuries or far-fetched things that might happen are not worth it should anyone come under scrutiny.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Well, I dunno. Sandra and I had an hour long conversation just last night related specifically to Judge and fundraising for him (among other things related to his care), so that was what I was going off of. That is actually how the phone call started-- basically if Judge was my dog would I do it?
> 
> It was a resounding NO. I said everything last night on the phone to her that I did here, so :shrug:. Simply going off of what was presented to me personally right before this thread was started. When I got off the phone with her, IMO, it was not at all a for sure thing that she was not still considering doing fundraising for him. So when I saw this thread started, I gave my opinion again.


I talked to hubby about it, after the conversation. Because I wanted to make sure that he is on the same page as I am. The whole thing came up because we were talking about insurance for the team and the dogs and fundraising for the dogs. However, there is a plan in place. He agreed that we check his orthopedic health first. It sort of was what I planned in the long run anyways. First his hips, when they check out he's getting the surgery paid by the deployment money. But I have to make sure that hubby is in the boat with it. I talked to him about it before but he tends to forget things and say "You never told me about it." and since we did talk about fundraising for dogs and insurance for us and the dogs on the team and I was told that some of the team members would actually put him to sleep rather than putting him to surgery or re-homing him... I was kind of like "WHY should I NOT be able to fundraise for a dog?" 

Especially when I put the estimated market value (what went already INTO the dog) right next to it. The cost of the surgery is below of what I put into the dog. And if I did not have the money, yes I would be out there selling cookies or whatever else I could come up with to raise the money for his surgery. 

Whats wrong with selling cookies and dedicating it to a dog? A friend of mine makes a living off of that and especially around Christmas Time you could sell cookies to people that have no time to do it themselves and are willed to pay for it and use that money to pay vor the bill. 

It's still raising funds, call it fundraiser or not, I don't really care. Yes, he was SPECIFICALLY PURCHASED for SAR. He was picked because of that reason. Just the purchase and the shipping itself was almost as expensive as his surgery. 

He shows no pain, he is not even limping, doing incredibly on the Glucosamine and putting him down just because the Surgery is 2000 (in a good case, since they can't come up with a fix number) Dollars? I was told they'd put an operational dog down over that kind of Surgery that is STUPID. The surgery is less than the value of the dog. And in that case, heck I'd be out there rallying for that dog. If somebody wanted to put down an operational dog over 2000 Dollars... if the public was aware of that, especially if the dog had multiple finds... just think of what would happen if the Rescue People got aware of that. That would damage a team more than standing out there raising the money to treat the dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

$2000? Can you not get a part time job and just pay for it? You said you have a green card.

Grim just set me back $2000 with his spleen and ellarged prostate and nueter after costing $1000 after dashing his teeth out on a tree. No doubt I could possibly trace the spleen to some sort of occupational exposure and the tree...well we were training....(at home but even so).....

It all came out of my pocket and it hurt and I had to make some other sacrifices to pay it....no I would not put a dog down over $2000. It just never entered my mind that someone else should pay for it.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sandra--no problem with you baking cookies or knitting some scarves and selling them at a craft fair to pay for Judge's surgery. That's what those things are for--people sell things to either make a living or to supplement their income. Yes, I do have a problem with baking cookies or knitting some scarves and promoting them as "saving a SAR dog" using your teams non-profit status to pay for Judge's surgery.

I am really not sure of the legal loopholes that may or may not be available for that and how the IRS would view it, that is just my own personal opinion on the matter like I told you yesterday. The bottom line is your dog is your responsibility in my mind.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Sandra--no problem with you baking cookies or knitting some scarves and selling them at a craft fair to pay for Judge's surgery. That's what those things are for--people sell things to either make a living or to supplement their income. Yes, I do have a problem with baking cookies or knitting some scarves and promoting them as "saving a SAR dog" using your teams non-profit status to pay for Judge's surgery.
> 
> I am really not sure of the legal loopholes that may or may not be available for that and how the IRS would view it, that is just my own personal opinion on the matter like I told you yesterday. The bottom line is your dog is your responsibility in my mind.


I did talk to R. in the beginning when Judge was still an active member of the team and he said, it would be okay to do it. He's the one who makes those decisions. However that was back then and back then is back then and not now. 

However, since he's off the team for quite a while, I wouldn't use the team. But I would say that he was supposed to do SAR and might actually get back into it while I have another dog in training. Which team he's on doesn't matter. 

Didn't we just see how another person used that to get the word out about their homeowner insurance? They used SAR as well even though some of the dogs are not even certified it was said that those dogs (while it was only one of those dogs) brought closure to the families on 9/11.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Especially when I put the estimated *market value* (what went already INTO the dog) right next to it.


Market value is not what you put into the dog but is instead what the market will pay for the dog. And trust me, it is nowhere near what you have dished out for him even without surgery. 

To answer the original question: Absolutely not. My dog, my responsibility. 

My dogs have gotten sick and injured because of foster dogs but I don't ask my rescue organization to foot the bill for that. I choose to foster, I choose to put my dogs at risk, I accept responsibility for it and pay for it when necessary. My decision. My consequences. My responsibility. No one elses.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Market value is not what you put into the dog but is instead what the market will pay for the dog. And trust me, it is nowhere near what you have dished out for him even without surgery.
> 
> To answer the original question: Absolutely not. My dog, my responsibility.
> 
> My dogs have gotten sick and injured because of foster dogs but I don't ask my rescue organization to foot the bill for that. I choose to fosters, I choose to put my dogs at risk, I accept responsibility for it and pay for it when necessary. My decision. My consequences. My responsibility. No one elses.


With all the talk about what you get for a working line puppy and that you should charge what you put into that dog, yes it is WHAT you put into the dog. If that wasn't the case no working dog puppy should cost 2000 Dollars. 

I put around 4000 Dollars into that dog. If he was healthy, I would charge that for him and I'd probably get it. 

First off, he is importet and comes with pink papers. Secondly he's got an INTENSE drive, he's got the kind of pedigree sport people want, third he retrieves metal and copper. 

If I wanted 4000 Dollars, if he was healthy, I'd get it. I don't have an unpapered pet dog out of backyard breeding. If healthy, that would be his market value, especially for a young, healthy, driven dog like him, there is a market out there and you will get the money for it. However, he is not healthy, he's injured. But as long as the cost of the vet care does not exceed of what I already put into the dog, I am not willed to put him down. Especially since he's otherwise, healthy and there are many other jobs he could do, even FOR THE TEAM, even he ends up as a tripod... he could STILL work FOR the team as a fundraiser.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I did talk to R. in the beginning when Judge was still an active member of the team and he said, it would be okay to do it. He's the one who makes those decisions. However that was back then and back then is back then and not now.
> 
> Didn't we just see how another person used that to get the word out about their homeowner insurance? They used SAR as well even though some of the dogs are not even certified it was said that those dogs (while it was only one of those dogs) brought closure to the families on 9/11.


Yes, and I was simply giving my opinion as to what I think is right and wrong--it doesn't much matter what R, Y, or Z said or didn't say. I was asked and an opinion was given  Ultimately what you do or don't do is completley up to you!

Not sure what the recent news coverage on the HOI has to do with me? Was I arguing one was OK and the other wasn't?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Yes, and I was simply giving my opinion as to what I think is right and wrong--it doesn't much matter what R, Y, or Z said or didn't say. I was asked and an opinion was given  Ultimately what you do or don't do is completley up to you!
> 
> Not sure what the recent news coverage on the HOI has to do with me? Was I arguing one was OK and the other wasn't?


I know that and I respect your opinion as everybodies elses. 

Eh, the HOI thing has nothing to do with you at all. I was thinking out loud. 

Bottom line is, we don't have to fundraise. One more month and we can get it all started, from the orthopedic health to the surgery plans. By January/February he should be on his way of recovery


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> With all the talk about what you get for a working line puppy and that you should charge what you put into that dog, yes it is WHAT you put into the dog. If that wasn't the case no working dog puppy should cost 2000 Dollars.
> 
> I put around 4000 Dollars into that dog. If he was healthy, I would charge that for him and I'd probably get it.
> 
> ...


Oh good grief. We have an ugly mutt on our team that was found by the handler at 4 weeks old on the side of the road. Hers is actually operational by the way. Your dog is "worth" no more than her dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Oh good grief. We have an ugly mutt on our team that was found by the handler at 4 weeks old on the side of the road. Hers is actually operational by the way. Your dog is "worth" no more than her dog.


Nancy, every breeder will beg to differ. 

I wouldn't sell him as a SAR dog. I would offer him as a working or sport dog and for that, there is a market and people would pay the price. 

In Germany a dog like him costs easily 3000-5000 Euros and people pay that kind of money to import dogs all over the world. Why do you think it is so hard for the German Police to find good dogs? It's because the GSD is expensive and people pay that kind of money. Every purebred is worth more than a mutt. No person would pay 4000 Dollars for a mutt but people pay for the pink papers, pedigree and drive. That's the way it is and always will be. 

He is a year old, if he was healthy, I would get that kind of money out of him.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm not sure about that. I was just (not seriously, unfortunately) looking into a SchH 1 male that was held back to evaluate by the breeder (well known) who sold him at 2 years (had done a repeat breeding and was keeping 2 full siblings).

He was only $4000.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> I'm not sure about that. I was just (not seriously, unfortunately) looking into a SchH 1 male that was held back to evaluate by the breeder (well known) who sold him at 2 years (had done a repeat breeding and was keeping 2 full siblings).
> 
> He was only $4000.


It depends on WHO sells the dog. 

I wouldn't sell him myself because I don't have a name but I know who has and he'd probably even get double for the dog.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> SAR Team should be able to do it too.


I have no problem with a SAR Team fundraising to get money to help pay for things realted to ACTIVE dogs and their handlers in regards to searches - like transportation costs to get the dog and handler to the search location.

I DO have a problem with using a SAR Team to raise money for a dog that hasn't been certified yet.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Bottom line for me - Gotta get back to work and I am about to go off the deep end.

When I was growing up my parents told me to not put more on my plate than I could eat. That goes well beyond food.

I see it everyday...why do folks have multiple kids when they can't afford one and then ask for ME to pay for the pregnancy and care of that child? (We stopped at 2 because we felt we could not raise more kids than that)....what happened to self reliance and accountability. Why do young kids expect to have at 25 what it took their parents a lifetime to acquire?

You put your hand out but I can guarantee you there is someone NEEDING that money more than you are. You never answered - is there some reason you cannot get a job? Why do you have so many dogs? Why should we pay for you to do stay at home and do "good things"? I would love to do that too. Oh. Have to work. Sorry.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> You put your hand out but I can guarantee you there is someone NEEDING that money more than you are. You never answered - is there some reason you cannot get a job? Why do you have so many dogs? Why should we pay for you to do stay at home and do "good things"? I would love to do that too. Oh. Have to work. Sorry.


Why I have so many dogs? I have three. I wouldn't call that many and the fosters vetbills are taken care for since I don't have to pay them myself. 

Again, there is a plan in place and ulitmately we have the money. I can easily afford the dog food, the heartworm, advantix and vet bills that range in the 100-500 dollars. I was denied for care credit since I am building up my credit score and new to the country and it takes time to build up credit. I said a thousand time that we pay the surgery from the money, so which part don't you understand that *I do NOT fundraise for him? *

I apply to pretty much any job out there I qualify for but have you tried to find a Job in Watertown with only one car? Since hubby needs that car every single day, until he deploys I am stuck with Watertown and it's pretty much impossible to find a job in this area. I applied from PetCo to Dunkin Donuts, tried myself as a cleaning woman but even that wouldn't work because I NEVER have the car and we won't buy a second car because he is going on deployment and it wouldn't make any sense. We simply said "Okay, we'll wait till AFTER the deployment" to get a second car.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Look I know where you are coming from financially and there were many years where we had one car and I walked or rode a bicycle everywhere with the kids. ...... and I really wanted to do SAR then but it was not in the budget and had to wait. 

If you don't have a car available how do you get to searches? Not much warning there to plan around it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, luckily I always had the car when there was a search. One I had to skip and the other one my notification system didn't work properly so I wasn't aware of the search until after I checked the email. Other than that, I can always make the team training on the weekends. 

Hubby deploys during the next month. Why taking onto a second car if he is gone for a year within the next month? That is when I finally can start searching for jobs around the Area and out of town, finally do French Ring I want to do. We do have the money for the Search Training. 

I also have the money for my equipment. Since Judge is doing so well on the Glucosamine and is more active than ever, we waited until we could easily spend the money on his surgery and there is nothing wrong with that. Why put yourself through a hardship if you know that there, soon is a time when you actually have the money to do it anyways? 
Especially since it's not a lifethreatening situation and the HD results will be more conclusive than if they were when he was four months old. 

Just thinking about the money we've lost during the moves we did when we got to the US. Nobody knew we had to do those moves and Judge was purchased before we moved. You never know what the future brings. 




jocoyn said:


> Look I know where you are coming from financially and there were many years where we had one car and I walked or rode a bicycle everywhere with the kids. ...... and I really wanted to do SAR then but it was not in the budget and had to wait.
> 
> If you don't have a car available how do you get to searches? Not much warning there to plan around it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

But take an honest look

On the one hand you are talking about taking money from other people for your dog because he might become a SAR dog. 

On the other hand you are talking about having money to do French Ring when you get a job. I know that dogsport is not cheap.

You pay for Judge's surgey all on your own and you don't feel guilty about doing ringsport.....)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Nancy, if we did not have the money to do any of it. If there was no money to even continue to do SAR that we could safe... I would have no shame in asking for help. But then again, I went through some rough patches of my life and I have learned to ask for help and trust me, I went without food and only chicken soup for months until I said "Okay, this is killing me, I need help." 

Since we do have the money within the next three months, I don't have to fundraise. It was hypothetical. Again, I am not taking money from anyone. It's OUR money that is put into his surgery, so why should I feel guilty to do a sport if I can do it? 

By the way, to get his hips and elbows checked (NOT OFA X-Rays) will cost us 400-500 Dollars. Just for a general check if it makes sense to have him undergo the surgery. And the vet said today that the limb deformity should be discussed first before I wanted to stud him out. I was like "Wait a second...I am not planning on studding that dog if I can't even get him through the health certifiaction process let alone titled or certified." 

I guess it's quite common in this area to stud any kind of dog no matter the health LOL




jocoyn said:


> But take an honest look
> 
> On the one hand you are talking about taking money from other people for your dog because he might become a SAR dog.
> 
> ...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

AbbyK9 said:


> One thing that did stand out to me is that several people basically said, "Well, why don't you get a job?" as a response to the thread as a whole, which - for one - doesn't seem to be addressing any of the questions raised in a general context (see what I said in the previous paragraphs) and it does come across as a bit rude as it assumes that Sandra isn't doing everything in her power *to* find a job.
> 
> For what it's worth, I don't think I ever talk to her without her saying something about a job she has applied for or an application she's picked up. She's applied everywhere from PetCo to Dunkin' Donuts, far as I'm aware. (I am one of her references, incidentally.)
> 
> I think to assume that she's not trying is a bit unfair.


Who is making that assumption? Asking a question is not assuming anything, it's just a question. And I didn't see her address that question in this thread until a couple of posts ago, so I think it's valid for people to wonder. They don't have the inside knowledge that you do.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I have to admit to being a little confused here too. At first Mrs.K asks a general question about fundraising to cover vet bills for a SAR dog, then she admits it's her own dog that she's talking about and she's upset and doesn't understand why her team won't help pay for his surgery. And THEN she says she does have the money to cover it, so it seems like this is all a moot point? If you've got the money why would you expect someone else to pay your vet bills? I don't get it. :thinking:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I have to admit to being a little confused here too. At first Mrs.K asks a general question about fundraising to cover vet bills for a SAR dog, then she admits it's her own dog that she's talking about and she's upset and doesn't understand why her team won't help pay for his surgery. And THEN she says she does have the money to cover it, so it seems like this is all a moot point? If you've got the money why would you expect someone else to pay your vet bills? I don't get it. :thinking:


*
I do NOT expect somebody to pay for it. *It is a hypothetical scenario. I was thinking about doing the fundraiser when the injury showed up and the vets painted such a black picture that it sounded like he needs immediate surgery. Two vets told me he'd break his leg within the next couple of months and he couldn't walk and blah blah blah. None of that every happened. I put him on Glucosamine and he's doing great. 

We talked about Insurance and raising Funds for dogs in general and I pulled Judge as *AN EXAMPLE *of what can happen with a dog and how much it can cost and I was told by several members that they had put the dog to sleep. 

I don't think it's justified to put him to sleep. I do NOT expect the team to pay for him, however at that time I was considering everything from going through the team to fundraise and simply sitting it out. Because we were deep in the red after having to move three times within half a year and spending thousands of dollars on security deposits.


Really people?

* IN EVER SINGLE POST, FOR AT LEAST THE LAST TWO OR THREE PAGES, I'VE STATED THAT I DO NOT EXPECT ANYONE ELSE TO PAY, NOR DO I FUNDRAISE, WE HAVE A PLAN IN PLACE. *


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

When Cyra got her diagnosis of severe HD the vet said I could make her operational with surgery but why put her through it since she was not really suffering? 

The cure would be worse than the solution . If he is doing well right now, why do tha to him? Recovery from orthopedic surgery is long and painful. I sure did not want to do that to her. She was, btw operational with one find.

So she was retired and 6 years later is a happy bouncy pet.....no new hips...

What is his prognosis without the surgery. HE doesnt care if he does SAR or not. He just wants to have fun.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> When Cyra got her diagnosis of severe HD the vet said I could make her operational with surgery but why put her through it since she was not really suffering?
> 
> The cure would be worse than the solution . If he is doing well right now, why do tha to him? Recovery from orthopedic surgery is long and painful. I sure did not want to do that to her. She was, btw operational with one find.
> 
> ...


Well, he could build Arthritis and over the years it could get to a point where it gets worse than it is now and needs surgery that is going to be more expensive. So while he's young, the damage not as bad, I'd rather do it now and if he can go back to work, thats a perk. Afterall that is what he initially was purchased for.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I somehow feel the need to donate laundry softener after reading through all of this dirty laundry.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> Afterall that is what he initially was purchased for.


This upsets me alot.

I've met people before that bought dogs for a specific purpose - one lady I used to train with bought a Border Jack (Border Collie/Jack Russell mix) specifically for agility. As we went through class she kept commenting on how the dog was beginning to worry her - it was getting taller.

She wanted a dog under a certain height (for jumping) so she could compete at a certain level.

She was even trying to teach the dog to crouch when someone tried to measure it.

She suddenly stopped coming to classes and I found out - the dog went over *her* required height and so she "got rid of it" and was looking for a new one.

For me, a dog is NOT something you get rid of because it doesn't fit what YOU wanted (color, size, abilities).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Amen Lauri!!!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Laurie, it is a very common thing in the sport and working dog world that if a dog doesn't work out, he goes into a different home to make room for another working dog because you can't just keep them all. Especially as a working home. He was not purchased as a pet. If I wanted a pet, I would have rescued a dog. He was specificially purchased to do a certain kind of job. 

If a police dog doesn't work out, they are washed, retired and re-homed. If a military working dog doesn't work out, they are washed, retired and re-homed. A SAR dog is a working dog that has to perform a certain kind of duty. 

However, I never said I'd get rid of him, since he still can be of use for the team, especially when it comes up to fundraising. 



Lauri & The Gang said:


> This upsets me alot.
> 
> I've met people before that bought dogs for a specific purpose - one lady I used to train with bought a Border Jack (Border Collie/Jack Russell mix) specifically for agility. As we went through class she kept commenting on how the dog was beginning to worry her - it was getting taller.
> 
> ...


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

*



I do NOT expect somebody to pay for it. It is a hypothetical scenario.

Click to expand...

*I thought that was a very good hypethetical scenario for you to bring up since you are in an area that does have frequent SAR calls and many members of the teams are in financial situations that are very tight. I really thought it was a nice thought since so many of the folks that do SAR up your way work minimum wage jobs and need to do odd jobs to make ends meet.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

kiwilrdg said:


> I thought that was a very good hypethetical scenario for you to bring up since you are in an area that does have frequent SAR calls and many members of the teams are in financial situations that are very tight. I really thought it was a nice thought since so many of the folks that do SAR up your way work minimum wage jobs and need to do odd jobs to make ends meet.


Apparently it's not wanted.... and actually frowned upon from the people that are doing it. I did ask around normal people as well and they had an entirely different opinion about it. 

Your personal pet is your responsibility but if you and your dog volunteer for SAR it's a major assett to the community and they were like "**** yes, go fundraise." even though he was a puppy and it is unsure if or if not he got injured in training or somewhere else. 

It is very interestin to see the differences in opinions. 

I did not think that there would be so much resistence against fundraising for SAR team dogs... :help:

That being said, Judge is not operational and was just in training for a couple of months, however his injury made me think about all the stuff that can happen during training and them being operational. 

If I think about the kind of money I put into Indra already and I had to face a 5-10 thousand dollar surgery... who really can afford to simply put that kind of money on the table and to say "Don't own a dog if you can't afford that kind of surgery." .... HOW MANY on here can really flip up their wallet and draw out that money without thinking twice about it?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh good grief no I am not going to say it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Simple answer.

If your team leadership says NO then don't do it.

If you go above/against the leadership for anything but a grevious ethical error, you have violated the chain of command and that would/should be grounds for dismissal. COC is very important on a SAR team and you should not be publicly complaining about your own team.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

This is a case where the area makes a big difference in the need. Both sides of this arguement provide valid points. 

There are regional variables like the local economy, funding to the units, and even the types of searches the dogs are used for. 

The best statement I have seen on this was



> If your team leadership says NO then don't do it.


There are so many people around the world running scams to "raise money for a (insert your favorite SD, TD, SAR dog, etc.)" that any fundraising should be directly through a recognized organization.

Not dog related, but a similar PR problem. When my late uncle's snowmobile rescue unit first started buying rescue sleds there was a lot of negative comments about them just wanting everyone else to pay for their snowmobiles. The difference between a couch dog and a working rescue dog is quite similar to this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

But there is also a difference between an SAR dog that fell off a cliff while searching and needs medical help and a dog that has been in SAR for 2 months and been pulled out because of an injury that "may" have happened during training.

I am a bit confused by this statement.



> However, I never said I'd get rid of him, since he still can be of use for the team, especially when it comes up to fundraising.


So, are you keeping him because he might be of some use to the team to raise money? Or are you keeping him because you WANT him? This statement makes it more than questionable.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I have no problem donating to a SAR organization for use to purchase equipment, like maps, gps, and other costs associated with a rescue, or would I have a problem with the funds going towards the vet care of a dog that was injured during a resuce. 

I would have a problem having the funds used for medical treatment of an individual dog, which may or may not of had medical problems in the past, and is unrelated to an actual SAR resuce operation. This post appears to be that way. 

We all pick our passions and place varring degrees of importance on them. Yes, some serve the community, yes some are more important than others, but, you know the costs and the committment required before going in. 

I have a tainted view on fundraising anyway. There are too many scams. If I gave to a SAR organization and discovered that the funds were used to pay for an operation of one of the dogs because of a birth defect I'd be livid. Most cannot afford our passions, being it time or $'s.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Simple answer.
> 
> If your team leadership says NO then don't do it.
> 
> If you go above/against the leadership for anything but a grevious ethical error, you have violated the chain of command and that would/should be grounds for dismissal. COC is very important on a SAR team and you should not be publicly complaining about your own team.


Nancy, I never went against my chain of command. I said it before and I say it again. I did go through the chain and I did have approval, however I did not start any fundraising because there was NO need for it. 

*HOWEVER this is NOT about JUDGE!* How many times do I really have to repeat myself? I've said it a dozen times, if not even more than that. Sometimes I really wonder if people purposely read something into what is being said or if they just don't read whats said at all. 

IT was about raising money in general for SAR Dogs. Can you PLEASE stop making this about Judge because it is NOT! 
As for the "being frowned upon" I was not talking about my team I was talking about the entire attitude IN THIS TOPIC!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I understand rehoming a K-9, military or seeing eye type dog if they washout because those dogs are used for a specific purpose. Being a pet is secondary to doing their job. But do SAR dogs fall into that same catagory? (volunteer SAR) The only ones I know are very much pets. They spend a lot of time training but actively doing real SAR, not so much. There just isn't a daily or weekly call for it. Maybe it depends on the area you live in. 

Anyway, I don't understand getting rid of a dog because it didn't work out doing SAR and I sure don't understand getting rid of a dog because it didn't excell at a sport. The only good thing is, they probably are better off in new homes where people don't use them for the sole purpose of boosting their own ego's.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Whiteshepherds brings up a very valid point.

A Search & Rescue dog could go it's whole life without being used. Some people only get a handful of calls each year.

To compare them to police dogs who work a full shift everytime their handler works, or service dogs that work 24/7 is just not right.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I've already said my piece on my personal opinion of it, but I still don't think it's technically legal so if this thing is discussed in the future, I would be VERY careful with trusting what your chain of command says! 

We cannot write the cost of our vounteer, non-team owned dogs off on our taxes, nor any of their care, so I just am completely raking my brain as to how fundraising under the team name (or ANY non-profit for that matter) and paying for your personal dog's vet care is OK as far as the IRS is concerned.

Just because they are your team leads does not mean they legally know what is right. I'm sure they'd be in trouble too, but ultimately you'd be the one accepting the funds.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> A Search & Rescue dog could go it's whole life without being used. Some people only get a handful of calls each year.


Exactly...so it should be right for anyone on a SAR team as a human to buy a dog, say it's on the team, and get the bills paid for? I think we all know that some dogs are in training perpetually.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

You know I find it hilarious that it is okay to raise money for police dogs that should be taken care of by the GOVERNMENT which is FUNDED BY TAXPAYERS MONEY ALREADY but it's not okay to ask for help when a SAR dog got hurt ON THE JOB.

I am talking about dogs that get hurt in training and on the job... I just can't comprehend how it's NOT okay to go out and fundraise for a dog. If a private person can go raise money for a pet dog with a genetic desease a Team can go out an raise money to take care of one of their dogs.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that topic.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...-rescue-dog-needs-help-with-treatment/1171360


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ya know...I don't believe there are any rules about starting your own 501c3 for medical costs incurred by SAR teams. There is one for doberman's (doberman911) and someday, I would love to start one for German Shepherds.

Police dogs are NOT SAR dogs...not in any way. They can not be compared. But if you are unhappy with the system, then start your own fund without relying on your team. Simple as that.

But, your original question was not in regards to a SAR dog. It asked if you would fundraise for your own dog. And that is what people answered.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Rescue Dog With Cancer Needs Help - WNEP


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mrs. K. - here is the difference between what you are asking for and what is happening in this article.



> To help him out, BluePearl is seeking donations for a new fund tailored for search-and-rescue dogs.* It'll be part of the vet office's already established Frankie's Funds Charitable Pet Foundation, which helps any patients who are struggling.*


The monies donated are NOT through the team but through an existing fund. The monies are then funneled to SAR dogs through a division in that fund.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Ya know...I don't believe there are any rules about starting your own 501c3 for medical costs incurred by SAR teams. There is one for doberman's (doberman911) and someday, I would love to start one for German Shepherds.
> 
> Police dogs are NOT SAR dogs...not in any way. They can not be compared. But if you are unhappy with the system, then start your own fund without relying on your team. Simple as that.
> 
> But, your original question was not in regards to a SAR dog. It asked if you would fundraise for your own dog. And that is what people answered.



WRONG!
City of Austin - Austin Police Search and Rescue K-9

And I am actually thinking about opening a 501c for SAR dog handlers that need assistance. I was never relying on my team in the first place. It was an option I talked through with the head of the team but I never relied on it. If I did I wouldn't the bills out of my pocket, don't you think?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Rescue Dog With Cancer Needs Help - WNEP


Again...is this actually part of the SAR team fund? Or are these non deductible donations that are being used this dog's medical purposes. I think there are many legalities in these articles that you aren't taking into account.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

While we are at it do you think I should ask to fundraise to fix the bumper and the skid plate on my truck. I tore both of them up on an actual search and my deductable is real high.......I got the darned truck for the major reason of SAR which consumes about 80% of its use. I only get to deduct gas and oil expenses for SAR related events (training, missions) and not the monthy payment of $500 or the insurance of $72 or maintenance etc.

It is an important member of the team. It can haul the trailer, a boat and an enitre SAR crew and has spare crate room. When we carpool it is one of the vehicles used because of all of the above. Hmmmm I also had about $500 of gear stolen on a search. Another opportunity for fundraising. 

Sandra - a police dog is actually used multiple times a day and good hearted people raise funds to help because to many departments it is simply a peice of equipment. It has to be treated that way because tax funds ARE used for its acquisition, training and maintenance. So decisions that are cold to most pet owners may be made vis a vis those dogs unless there is public help. 

SAR folks own their dogs, can do whatever they want, and even if they are on a very busy team a probably not deployed even once a week. They can choose to leave the team at any time. They can walk away from a mission if they feel it is too dangerous they can do other things with their dogs. It is a tax nightmare for donations through a team. Most SAR dogs are actually beloved pets on top of being ocassional working dogs. 

I have talked with folks on teams who have never had a call. So we get 30 calls a year but each dog probably winds up working about 10 of those. Our HR dogs actually are probably the busiest which is typical. I believe that is fairly average. A team in NC used to get 80 calls a year but they were in the mountains and extended cell phone coverage has greatly reduced call volume.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> If I did I wouldn't the bills out of my pocket, don't you think?


I don't have any idea what you think or do. I think you get something in your head and that's the end of the discussion for you without paying attention to any of the answers that don't fit with what you want. :help:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Mrs. K. - here is the difference between what you are asking for and what is happening in this article.
> 
> 
> 
> The monies donated are NOT through the team but through an existing fund. The monies are then funneled to SAR dogs through a division in that fund.


I was talking about both all along. Not only about teams but also about funds in general. But it's tiring to bicker back and forth because obviously, SAR dogs just don't deserve any kind of funding and help at all. 

At least that is the message of this topic. 

Very dissappointing...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The ability to use our personal dogs this way is an honor and a privelige and it often has to be earned and re-earned. We are always this close to having the state say "ah-volunteers too much trouble just have Fire do it or just add a search dog to the police department"

I know a very very very very small pool of SAR folks who think otherwise and want to do have anything more than the ability to give...because they know what they are getting by simply being ABLE to give and it is their passion!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> While we are at it do you think I should ask to fundraise to fix the bumper and the skid plate on my truck. I tore both of them up on an actual search and my deductable is real high.......I got the darned truck for the major reason of SAR which consumes about 80% of its use. I only get to deduct gas and oil expenses for SAR related events (training, missions) and not the monthy payment of $500 or the insurance of $72 or maintenance etc.
> 
> *Yes, why shouldn't you? The truck benefits the team more than yourself. I'd actually fundraise to get it fixed and then fundraise to get money to buy a team truck that is used for purposes like that. *
> 
> ...


When I volunteered for volunteer organizations in Germany I was always insured. Pretty much every dog club has an insurance ad you have to have a liability insurance as well. Our insurances go into the Millions and don't stop at the 10 000 or 100 000 dollar cap that won't get you nowhere. 

So it is kind of new to me that you just don't have the same coverage no matter in which direction you look. If a dog, that is persuing a public service, no matter if the handler is paid or volunteering, the handler and the team have every right to go out an fundraise for that dog. However, they also have the right not to. It's a choice. 

If my dog gets hurt on the job and I don't have the funds to cover the bills, you bet I'll be out there raising money. With or without the team. 

And I'd do the same for any other dog on the team. I'd do the same for a dog from another team I know or was friends with. I have no issue to stay out there doing what needs to be done in order to get a dog the medical care that got hurt while performing a service to the public.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> The ability to use our personal dogs this way is an honor and a privelige and it often has to be earned and re-earned. We are always this close to having the state say "ah-volunteers too much trouble just have Fire do it or just add a search dog to the police department"
> 
> I know a very very very very small pool of SAR folks who think otherwise and want to do have anything more than the ability to give...because they know what they are getting by simply being ABLE to give and it is their passion!



Nancy, in a healthy relationship it's not just taking or giving. It is a give and take. And as long as you give, give and give some more, if in need, you have the right to take as well. 

Situations like that pop up once a lifetime. If you have given your free time, money and passion to the public for 15 years there is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING wrong with asking for help in return. 

You know why i didn't do it even though I had the permission? Because I am the newest member on the team and it did not feel right to do it. Even though the dog was purchased for the team it just did not feel right. 

I raised thousands of dollars for military famileis in the US, from Germany, while I had nothing to do with them at all. When hubby and I got married and we ran into problems, these families helped us in return. 
I've done it for years and it felt okay to take that help. 

Sometimes, it is okay to say "We need help!"

And honestly, without taking there is no giving... show me one non-profit organization that can run and give without taking donations first. There is always a give and take and the same goes for SAR teams.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Goodness, all this drama and the handler/dog are not even certified! I may be off but no SAR team will touch you with a 10 foot pole after all this talk about liability and funds by someone who is not even past the apprentice status!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sandra--i was merely giving a suggestion for you--or anyone else considering something similar--to make sure you have your bases covered legally for this kind of thing. I do not know for SURE what is and is not allowed. And just because you found someone doing it does not mean they might not get slammed for it. 

Nothing more. Nothing less. No need to argue unless you specifically have the law that relates to fundraising under non-profits and how the money can be distrubuted. 

It is just a funny thing with a lot of rules. I can deduct food and vet bills I buy for fosters through the non-profit rescues I used to foster for, but I cannot deduct food and vet bills for my personal dogs even if they are "members" of a non-profit SAR team.

And people here have liability insurance, including dog clubs and including your team. But think about it--does SchH club insurance in Germany pay for dog vet bills? No.

What I am talking about really has nothing to do with personal opinion or if I think it's fair that A or B can fundraise or not....the law is the law and it's fair warning to check the rules.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Interstingly it was Nancy that gave that kind of list in another topic that should be asked:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-invited-train-but-concerned.html#post2163243


> **Do they have attendance requirements
> **Requirements that K9s and handlers must meet in terms of goals = or similar to the NASAR SAR II body of knowledge (either that or some equivalent)
> **Do they have written standards
> **Do they ceritfy their dogs, preferably to an external national standard through a national organization
> ...


So it is a valid questions.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh, for what it is worth.

No I do NOT want money to fix my truck and it was not a SAR person who stole my gear; our search was at a group home and we think it must have been one of the residents since we were out in the stix..but all you can do is ask if they saw it and describe it to the police in case it showed up somewhere....... I just thought I was making a point....I guess it is a different mindset.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, LIABILITY insurance.

How did we end up on the topic of liability insurance?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Sandra--i was merely giving a suggestion for you--or anyone else considering something similar--to make sure you have your bases covered legally for this kind of thing. I do not know for SURE what is and is not allowed. And just because you found someone doing it does not mean they might not get slammed for it.
> 
> Nothing more. Nothing less. No need to argue unless you specifically have the law that relates to fundraising under non-profits and how the money can be distrubuted.
> 
> ...



One of our Members does deduct a certain amount of food, vet bills, toys etc (and the dog is NOT certified) and gas from the taxes and I was told by several other team members that you can actually deduct pretty much any gear you purchase for the SAR team from taxes as well. 

SchH is a sport, not a volunteer organization. 
I do have liability for my dogs as well but it's nowhere near as good as the one we had in Germany. That would cover you for 10 000 000 EUROS and I just paid a 12 Euro premium per month. Over here it's barely a 100 000 Dollars and you pay ridiculous amounts of premiums to have that coverage...


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> One of our Members does deduct a certain amount of food, vet bills, toys etc (and the dog is NOT certified) and gas from the taxes and I was told by several other team members that you can actually deduct pretty much any gear you purchase for the SAR team from taxes as well.
> 
> SchH is a sport, not a volunteer organization.


Again, just because someone else does it does not mean that it is LEGAL and they will not get slammed by the IRS. 

You were the one that brought up dog clubs and insurance, not me!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> Interstingly it was Nancy that gave that kind of list in another topic that should be asked:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-invited-train-but-concerned.html#post2163243
> 
> ...


Please do not twist my words

I was talking about LIABILITY insurance so that members don't get personally SUED if someone makes a mistake / someone gets hurt. Homeowners does not cover and most folks don't have umbrella policies and if they do that may not cover because of it being done under a team just like there are some differences with good samaritan laws when you are trained and certified. Most teams have it. I know we opted out of equipment coverage due to cost. Dogs would probably not fit. FWIW we had a truck donated which we sold because of the cost of insuring and operating it. It was ok with the donor.

VFIS - Insuring North America's Heroes

You probably need to be talking with a tax accountant about what you can and cannot deduct; the IRS publications are pretty staright and I would not take any deduction based on what I was told.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I would donate for a dog with a 'cause' such as SAR or a service dog that needed expensive surgery or treatment. I wouldn't fund raise for my own pet because he's a pet and not providing some sort of service to the community.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Please do not twist my words
> 
> I was talking about LIABILITY insurance so that members don't get personally SUED if someone makes a mistake / someone gets hurt. Homeowners does not cover. Most teams have it. I know we opted out of equipment coverage due to cost. Dogs would probably not fit. FWIW we had a truck donated which we sold because of the cost of insuring and operating it. It was ok with the donor.
> 
> VFIS - Insuring North America's Heroes


Thanks for clarifying.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Again, just because someone else does it does not mean that it is LEGAL and they will not get slammed by the IRS.
> 
> You were the one that brought up dog clubs and insurance, not me!


I was told by the tax office on Post that it actually is legal and I could deduct everything from the taxes. But since I had no receipts nor written down the miles I couldn't do it. The miles have to be "certified" by the head of the team and you'd get the taxes back. I am not doing my taxes, I simply give them everything we have and they do it for us and I guess if they say it's okay and legal it is, since I doubt that the military would do anything illegal and get themselves into trouble.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I was told by the tax office on Post that it actually is legal and I could deduct everything from the taxes. But since I had no receipts nor written down the miles I couldn't do it. The miles have to be "certified" by the head of the team and you'd get the taxes back.


You don't get the taxes back. It gets added to your itemized deduction if you qualify for one and it reduces your taxable income. It will help some but it's not a 1 for 1. And it's been a few years since I studied tax but I don't remember you being able to deduct such things.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

People sure are getting upset about a hypethetical question. The fundraising that everyone is upset about didn't happen.

Liability of organizations is more of an issue in the US than Germany because the economic structure in Germany does cover more of the personal liabilities so organizations can cover more specific club-related liabilities so I understand why the question was asked.

It was a question that was asked and answered fairly early and now it seems to be people trying to put a member in a corner by asking pointed questions.

Public service volunteer benefits are not always as good as they should be and that point has been made. 

We should not act like this is one of those cases when a BYB dog has SD paperwork through the internet and the owner wants to raise money for a problem that the new vet can't even find.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think that instead of taking the comments at face value, the OP just kept arguing the point and that is why people are frustrated.

Oh the IRS has no requirement that mileage is "certified" by anyone. You have to keep a concurrent log. It is not worth tracking miles at the charitible rate of 14 cents a mile so most people keep a mileage log and log every trip in the vehcile and that percentage of GAS & OIL (not repairs, not operating expenses) applicable to SAR usage is deducted from your taxable income as an itemized deduction in the charitable contribution section. The IRS publications are actually quite clear on that. I am not sure if they recently raised it or not. We paid off the mortgage so I am back to taking the standard deduction and don't itemize


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know. 

Times have been really hard here lately. Or police dogs are funded by donations, not taxes. Our vet covers a lot of the veterinary care, so they get the services pretty much at cost, but they always add that they are accepting donations when there is an issue -- the police department, not the vet. If I did not currently owe the vet money, and had money to spare, I would consider donating to the vet to cover costs incurred by our police dogs. Our grocery store donates food for the dogs -- regular mainenance food. Without food, the dog is not going after bad guys. 

A training accident or an illness that prevents a trained dog from performing a function should qualify. 

K9s and SAR dogs are different yes, but they are both providing a service to the community. I think that if I was training a SAR dog, to be on a SAR team, if I could I would not wait for an accident or injury to begin fund raising. By fund-raising, I do not mean going door to door and begging for money out of pocket. I would have at least one fund raising event per month, a spaghetti dinner, a garage sale-type auction type thing, a car wash, a gulf outing/steak dinner, stuff like that. I would make our SAR team front and center in the community. I would offer our dogs and people to speak at churches, give demos at dog shows, and money collected would be put into funds for equipment, and for veterinary care. Team members would be encouraged to cover what they could on their own, but it would be there to pick up the slack. 

The community benefits from having SAR dogs, and by doing fund raising, those are ways to both get good press for you team and dogs, and also to allow the community to show their appreciation, to turn out, to support what you guys are doing. 

I think I would probably be skeptical if someone called me and said, that they are members of the ABC Search and Rescue team, and their dog needs an expensive surgery and would I be willing to donate to the cause.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> I don't know.
> 
> Times have been really hard here lately. Or police dogs are funded by donations, not taxes. Our vet covers a lot of the veterinary care, so they get the services pretty much at cost, but they always add that they are accepting donations when there is an issue -- the police department, not the vet. If I did not currently owe the vet money, and had money to spare, I would consider donating to the vet to cover costs incurred by our police dogs. Our grocery store donates food for the dogs -- regular mainenance food. Without food, the dog is not going after bad guys.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Selzer. That is exactly what I am having in mind for a SAR Team. A fully operational dog is too expensive and it takes way too much time to train another one. So to me it doesn't make any sense to retire a dog over 2000 dollars let alone putting the dog to sleep. 

If a team has a fund in place for operational dogs that get hurt in training or during a search doesn't mean that they have to pay the entire costs. They could simply pick up the slack as you said.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I think that instead of taking the comments at face value, the OP just kept arguing the point and that is why people are frustrated.
> 
> Oh the IRS has no requirement that mileage is "certified" by anyone. You have to keep a concurrent log. It is not worth tracking miles at the charitible rate of 14 cents a mile so most people keep a mileage log and log every trip in the vehcile and that percentage of GAS & OIL (not repairs, not operating expenses) applicable to SAR usage is deducted from your taxable income as an itemized deduction in the charitable contribution section. The IRS publications are actually quite clear on that. I am not sure if they recently raised it or not. We paid off the mortgage so I am back to taking the standard deduction and don't itemize


No, I think we are talking about two entirely different things. Selzer has pretty much laid out what I ment all along. Maybe that helps to understand the point I am trying to make.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Selzer has pretty much laid out what I ment all along. Maybe that helps to understand the point I am trying to make.


Well good, that's settled....so when's your first bakesale??


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Well good, that's settled....so when's your first bakesale??


I need to get my stove/oven fixed or a new one first. :wild:

You want some cookies? 

But I thought of something els. Jakoda has shared her dog treat recipes with me. So I am going that route. Since I live in an entirely different county I doubt my county would be happy about fundraiser, but I can sell those treats and DONATE that money to the team for a specific purpose.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I need to get my stove/oven fixed or a new one first. :wild:
> 
> You want some cookies?
> 
> But I thought of something els. Jakoda has shared her dog treat recipes with me. So I am going that route. Since I live in an entirely different county I doubt my county would be happy about fundraiser, but I can sell those treats and DONATE that money to the team for a specific purpose.


Make sure you check food distribution laws in your state/county. In PA, you have to have a license to sell people food.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Make sure you check food distribution laws in your state/county. In PA, you have to have a license to sell people food.


Yeah, I knw. I probably have to get a vendors licene. I did go through the food safety classes since we used to throw BBQ Fundraisers for the FRG.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Selzer-one of the first rules of volunteer SAR is to make sure you can easily afford it because it is a thankless job. You do not get into it with any kind of intentions or expectations that anyone other than you will be picking up the bills or emergencies.

There really are a plethora of people wanting to do SAR--teams regularily turn people away.

Teams cannot AFFORD to pay for team members dogs! It's not like teams are NOT fundraising already! Why on EARTH should potential SAR team funds go to a non-SAR related injury when it could go to a million other things related to equipement used by the entire team (think software and GPS units TO HELP FIND PEOPLE), lost prevention training for kids,etc, etc, etc.

Teams cannot AFFORD to buy and maintain member dogs. That is why they do not own the dogs! 

Having people 100% dedicated to SAR and willing to put their blood, sweat, and tears into it is MUCH more important than having a good dog on the team, I'm sorry. There are good dogs everywhere. The person is 80% of the battle. Yeah, it sucks to waste a dogs career because of an injury, but why should a team waste funds and resources on something that is not theirs? A K9 handler can walk away from the team at any time they feel like--there is nothing keeping a handler there if the team helps fund or fundriase for an injury or surgery. A GPS unit, boat, or computer cannot (assuming that a person does not help it walk away).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Teams cannot AFFORD to pay for team members dogs! It's not like teams are NOT fundraising already! Why on EARTH should potential SAR team funds go to a non-SAR related injury when it could go to a million other things related to equipement used by the entire team (think software and GPS units TO HELP FIND PEOPLE), lost prevention training for kids,etc, etc, etc.


The point is to have a fund in place for SAR related injuries. And just because you fundraise for a situation like that doesn't mean that the team members are not a 100% involved and don't give everything they already have. 

It is kind of ironic that a lot of people on here find it perfectly acceptable for a government agency to raise money for dogs that should already be taken care off by the GOVERNMENT but a volunteer organization would be frowned upon if they put a fund into place to do the same. 

Seriously, this is not about a 500 dollar bill which we all can easily afford. Can you easily afford to pick up a 10 000 or 20 000 dollar bill? Is that what you have to be able to afford in order to own a dog? 

If something like that happens in training or during a search, yes, I think it is absolutely valid to raise money. And it is valid to have something in place before something happens. 

It's something for rare occassions that might happen once in a lifetime and if I want to donate money towards the health care of SAR dogs that I have earned from my own sweat than I can do that.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

This entire thread has been about general surgies non-related or unknown if related to SAR.

NO. NO. NO. A team should NOT pay for for HD surgery, a broken leg from being hit by a car, or any other thing. I don't care how many different ways it can be spinned--SAR team funds should go to things that the ENTIRE team gets use out of and that they have direct control over. Your personal dog is NOT one of them!

Police dogs are NOT owned by individuals. They are owned and with the department until the agency deems them released from duty. A volunteer SAR team has NO control over what you do with your dog of if you never show up to training tomorrow. I don't understand how this difference is not clear?

DO NOT DO SAR IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD THE BASIC WEAR AND TEAR ON A DOG.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Again pulling out education that is a few years stale (which I plan to revisit after I finish my current degree) but I'm pretty sure non-profits can't just stash money away for a rainy day. Carrying a large bank balance is going to throw up all sorts of red flags with IRS. Hopefully your group has a non-profit accountant that can make sure what you are suggesting is advisable before it gets your team in some hot water.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> This entire thread has been about general surgies non-related or unknown if related to SAR.
> 
> NO. NO. NO. A team should NOT pay for for HD surgery, a broken leg from being hit by a car, or any other thing. I don't care how many different ways it can be spinned--SAR team funds should go to things that the ENTIRE team gets use out of and that they have direct control over. Your personal dog is NOT one of them!
> 
> ...



Justine, I hope this is not directed towards me, because i sure as **** can afford SAR. 

And as for spending SAR Team Money, nobody ever said that that money should be spend. I am talking about an EXTRA FUND, specifically for that purpose. 

And don't tell me that any team would say no to a donation that would go towards an emergency fund for a SAR dog that got hurt while on duty. Show me one team that would say no to any kind of donation an if I (for example) want to donate money towards that specific purpose that goes into an entirely different fund what the heck is so darn wrong about that?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have no experience with SAR other than doing some research on a local group and realizing I cannot make the time or financial commitment right now (that is without a dog, this particular team requires YOU to work and get certified before they will entertain helping you find and train a dog). But anyway.... I don't see anything wrong with SAR teams fundraising for an ongoing basis and keeping monies in a fund that can be used for injuries sustained during work (or injuries to humans, replacing gear, etc). I suppose if I were on such a team I would have more of an issue with monies going towards dogs/people/teams not certified or active or whatever your term is, or monies going toward injuries/conditions that are pre-existing and/or were not sustained during active SAR work. I would think that money in the fund should be prioritized towards active teams and that dogs should be evaluated as far as their physical condition before being active and any health problems that need to be addressed should only be addressed by the owner of the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDElsa said:


> Selzer-one of the first rules of volunteer SAR is to make sure you can easily afford it because it is a thankless job. You do not get into it with any kind of intentions or expectations that anyone other than you will be picking up the bills or emergencies.
> 
> There really are a plethora of people wanting to do SAR--teams regularily turn people away.
> 
> ...


From what I understand, dogs generally do get injured on searches. The injuries can be minor or major. I am glad that in your area there are so many willing handlers and able dogs that people can turn people down if they are not well-to-do. 

Knock SAR off my list of things to do with my dogs. Shooo! Traveling by helicopter, wearing my dogs feet out on debris, and tons of training and physical activity doesn't sound all that glamorous to me, sorry. I sure am glad there are a waiting list of better candidates, lining up and being turned down. 

If I am out there running around with my dog and a bunch of sheep or cattle, or jumping over jumps in Rally or Agility, and my dog gets hurt, I am not doing anything for the community, and the people in the community probably won't feel compelled to help with my veterinary costs. If I am giving up nights and weekends training, spend tons of money on equipment and time off of work, etc. to help with rescue operations, and my dog becomes injured, I can see a community offering to help with veterinary care for the dog. 

I guess while there are plenty of people willing to sacrifice themselves and their dogs, volunteering for SAR, and covering all their own expenses and their dogs; the teams can use their money for equipment and the like. Dogs are not a cheap hobby. Most of the people I know, the dog people I know have plenty of bread.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Couldn't a non profit org. purchase an insurance policy for the dogs, that team members pay on when they renew their membership each year? Each member's SAR dog would be specific to the membership? So you couldn't say FIDO (who isn't utlized for SAR) can benefit from the policy. But if you used 4 personal dogs then you could add each one individually.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Actually, there are no waiting lists... I know that we can't really afford to turn somebody down, if they have met the requiremens and the right dogs... people are not like "Whoa, I want to do SAR..." 

We have not a single apllicant ever since I joined the team....


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

An individual can buy like VPI insurance and injuries incurred during search and rescue are covered........it is another wise option.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Justine, I hope this is not directed towards me, because i sure as **** can afford SAR.
> 
> And as for spending SAR Team Money, nobody ever said that that money should be spend. I am talking about an EXTRA FUND, specifically for that purpose.
> 
> And don't tell me that any team would say no to a donation that would go towards an emergency fund for a SAR dog that got hurt while on duty. Show me one team that would say no to any kind of donation an if I (for example) want to donate money towards that specific purpose that goes into an entirely different fund what the heck is so darn wrong about that?


It is directed towards ANYONE.

The fundamental problem here is that there is NO extra money--fundraising or not. Can you really say that your team has EVERYTHING they need that all team members can use--from equipemtn to training, PLUS a plethora of extra money? I really don't know any SAR team that is swimming in enough cash to pay for peoples' dogs HD surgery, I'm sorry.

I mean--you just talked 2 posts back about a $20,000 injury or ailment. I know I've seen my teams finances and they are a lot closer to $200 extra in cash than $20,000.

If fundraising and maintaining a team was as easy as saying "poof, it's there" then everyone would do it.

And once again.................there are very strict guidelines in place on how non-profit money can be used. I would be hardpressed to say that a SAR team can even legally do what you are talking about unless the dog is team property.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know all the tax codes. Our club I do not think is a not-for-profit. But we do carry money forward each year, and if someone makes a bequest to the club, then we do not have to spend it all in one place or in one time-frame. I am sure a trip to a tax-lawyer would help a team set their organization up in whatever way makes sense to them. For example, maybe keeping 20k in a rainy day fund will not work because of a tax-code, but fundraising 1-2k per year, and spending it on health insurance on active team-member's dogs might make a world of sense, if you can get a policy that will not disallow injuries that come from rescue-work.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> It is directed towards ANYONE.
> 
> The fundamental problem here is that there is NO extra money--fundraising or not. Can you really say that your team has EVERYTHING they need that all team members can use--from equipemtn to training, PLUS a plethora of extra money? I really don't know any SAR team that is swimming in enough cash to pay for peoples' dogs HD surgery, I'm sorry.
> 
> ...


I know how strict the guidelines are. But honestly, I am not surprised of how low the funds are. What exactly are they doing to fundraise? 

I know how Soldiers Angels raises funds, I've been part of that. I know how FRG's raise their funds, I've been the FRG Leader and out in the entire community we used to raise over 500 Dollars every weekend just by holding BBQ's where everybody paid what they wanted to give to the FRG. I know how hard it is but I also know that peope are willed to donate if it is for a good cause and SAR Teams is a good cause, IF you do it the right way. 

If you don't make it public, don't give the press some food to feed to the public, if the public doesn't even know that the team exists how is the public supposed to give something to the team? 

If the public doesn't even know that you are running a fundraiser and keep it down as a stealth mission... no wonder people stay away, because they don't know that you are out there. 

Heck, we've god dogs, people LOVE SAR dogs. Anywhere you look they will stop and ask you questions. 

But in order to do fundraising you need to spend money first. You have to be out there, public, not just three times a year but EVERY SINGLE MONTH. 

However, that takes commitment and discipline....


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> An individual can buy like VPI insurance and injuries incurred during search and rescue are covered........it is another wise option.


which one?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> But in order to do fundraising you need to spend money first. You have to be out there, public, not just three times a year but EVERY SINGLE MONTH.
> 
> However, that takes commitment and discipline....


i would rather be out training dogs to find people ......


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> which one?


Call VPI. Injuries (including SAR dogs) are covered. Congenital defects are not. They have a cancer rider policy as well.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> i would rather be out training dogs to find people ......


Nancy, from experience I can tell you that it took a couple of months to get those fundraisers up and running. The most crucial part is to recognize those that donate, to recognize those that help. If you recognize the efforts people make, they come back to help, even if they are not actively on the team. 

When I started those BBQ's we were two people. Me and a single Soldier from hubbies Unit. Once it became a regular thing and people got recognized and thanked for what they do, once we had established a way of communication (which is a big issue. People don't properly communicate anymore, I can see it every day) to keep them in the loop of what is going on...within half a year I had 15 people out there, running the BBQ. 

Once it is established, you have the time to train, you can actually include training into those fundraisers. Get people involved, make them feel important and let them know that you appreciate them, communicate and give them a plattform. 

If it works with the Angels, Rescues, FRG's, the Red Cross, Firefighters, Johanniters, Malteser... it will work with SAR as well.

And by the way. In Germany injuries during training or on the Job are covered by the SAR Team. Most of them have a health insurance via the Team, specifically for that purpose. Others pay for injuries, that happen on the job or during training, out of pocket.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

No. I don't think I would do that for a pet. My children, yes. My animals, no.
Sheilah


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

selzer said:


> I don't know all the tax codes. Our club I do not think is a not-for-profit. But we do carry money forward each year,


Carrying some money forward and keeping a large fund are two different things.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Carrying some money forward and keeping a large fund are two different things.


Then I wonder how the Vermont Medical Fund for retired Police Dogs works. There are non-profit organizations that carry more than a Million Dollars and raise even more than that during a fiscal year. Yes, it needs to be spent an they can't make a profit but I am pretty sure that they can keep a balance in their account.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Then I wonder how the Vermont Medical Fund for retired Police Dogs works. There are non-profit organizations that carry more than a Million Dollars and raise even more than that during a fiscal year. Yes, it needs to be spent an they can't make a profit but I am pretty sure that they can keep a balance in their account.


Maybe you should ask them. I find it interesting that you know so much about how these organizations are run especially for not being in this country that long. 

I have to go to training now but I think I'll look up their financials when I get home.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Maybe you should ask them. I find it interesting that you know so much about how these organizations are run especially for not being in this country that long.
> 
> I have to go to training now but I think I'll look up their financials when I get home.


Well, you don't have to live in the US to learn how those organizations are run.

However, I just talked to VPI and asked if it is possible to insure the entire team and they said it would not be an issue and that they have many SAR teams under their wings, so it seems like it is not that uncommon. 

However, one person would have to hold all the policies and you get a 10% discount. 5% because it's a multiple dog policie and another 5% because they have the same status as a Service Dog within the Company. 

It would cost a total of 137.73 Dollars per month to do that. That could be split between the team members if a team insurance was wanted.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

The following is being given as my opinion as I do not have legal authority to dispense tax information or Federal/State Law advice on this forum.

*Fundraising by the organization or any members of the organization or giving the appearance of representing the organization in any manner:*
Fundraising activities must be kept within the purpose and mission of a 501(c)(3). 
~ Fundraising for equipment and supplies needed for the carrying out of the purpose of the organization must be documented and become part of the end of fiscal year reports. 
~ Salaries or benefits of staff must be in keeping with industry guidelines and follow written policy of the organization. Staff will follow tax law on these funds.
~ Any extra benefit given to paid staff or volunteer over token amount must be reported.
~ Benefits given to paid staff or volunteer over a token amount must be considered salary. 

I would highly suggest that anyone planning on fundraising for a member's private property (dog) consult a tax attorney to verify that the organization's guidance and corporate paperwork are being followed. Final decision must be in writing to protect the organization. If there was a mistake in this advice the company giving the advice would then be responsible for the payment of any taxes due or penalties and any fines for violations. 

Since dogs are the property of the handler the handler would be responsible to pay applicable taxes (Fed and State) for this income. _Fundraisers for purchase and training of Assistance/Service Dogs are looked at differently as under Federal Law (Dept. of Justice) they are considered medical equipment._

To be transparent:
Donor's must be told the dog's status as to the team (In-Training, Certified, Operational). Donor's must be told the projected outcome and chances of dog being able to go back to work as an operational team member. If the professional opinion (vet) is that the dog will most likely will need to be placed into retirement then that should also be made known upfront during the fundraising. 

Tax deductible receipts from the non-profit must be given to any donor giving $250 or more. Receipts for lesser amounts are up to the policy of the organization. 

If there is a benefit to the donor (dinner, ticket, prize) then the receipt must reflect the fair market value of that benefit and the donor may only receive a tax receipt for the difference.

*For individuals raising funds for a gift to an organization*:
~ There is no tax benefit for the individual donors. 
~ Any funds given to the organization may be used as the organization wishes unless earmarked at the time of giving for a specific purpose which follows the organization governance papers. The organization must accept any earmarked funds as such at the time they are received. These funds must be claimed and documented by the organization as dedicated funds or else they go into general funding. Once funds are claimed as dedicated at acceptance they may not be used for any other purpose unless the donor was told of the possibility at the time of acceptance. 


There is more to fundraising for a 501(c)(3) then holding a bakesale and sticking the money into an envelope to hold in a desk drawer to be used as needed.

For the info that I have researched for my opinions and further guidance you can go to Internal Revenue Service


Any 501(c)(3) that is in violation of the IRS stand to lose their tax exempt status so this is not something to go into without thought and planning.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

selzer said:


> I am glad that in your area there are so many willing handlers and able dogs that people can turn people down if they are not well-to-do.


GSDElsa NEVER said anything about it having to do with money. Here are her exact words:



GSDElse said:


> There really are a plethora of people wanting to do SAR--teams regularily turn people away.


Selzer - stop twisting people's words.


I DO know (from personal experience) that SAR teams have to be very picky about who they let join. They spend alot of their OWN time training a new member and if that person is not 110% committed then they have wasted all that time.

They have to evaluate the human part of the equation. Does this person have a job that will allow them to leave at the drop of a hat and be gone for several days at a time? If they aren't working will their family members be able to manage with out them for days at a time and can they leave at a moments notice? Does the person have the time and dedication to train CONTINUOUSLY? You can't just train a SAR dog once and then sit around and wait to be called. Training is an active, ongoing endeavor.

I'm sure plenty of people 'want' to do SAR ... but I'm sure the ones that actually CAN are very few.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think, these are her exact words:


GSDElsa said:


> Selzer-one of the first rules of volunteer SAR is to make sure you can easily afford it because it is a thankless job. You do not get into it with any kind of intentions or expectations that anyone other than you will be picking up the bills or emergencies.
> 
> There really are a plethora of people wanting to do SAR--teams regularily turn people away.


I do not go around trying to twist people's words. This sounds to me that people are sitting there delving into your financial situation and turning you down if you do not meet a standard of living that allows for you to "easily afford it." 

Now I am going to go farther. We had a SAR team speak to our club. And one of the things they said was that when they get called out, they pay for EVERYTHING, transportation, hotel rooms, etc. 

Now my opinion of what is well-to-do may not be the same as yours. Well-to-do to me is someone who can leave their job at the drop of a hat, pay for a plane ticket for them and their dog, pay for a hotel room, and pay for any level of injury that their dog might sustain. That is well-to-do.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We have 5 to 6 inquiries every month. We talk with them and explain what is required plus we have a 3 month probation period where no dog is brought to training and the expectation (if they are to be a dog hander) is that if the dog does not pass a screening evaluation, they will need to secure a new dog. We are actually not taking any more dogs or handlers for the forseeable future though we can take a few more flankers/ground support. All this boils down to maybe a new member or two every year. By the time they join they tend to stay...

It takes so much time to properly train a dog and we have very agressive training requirements with an expectation that members train their dogs 2-3 days a week and attend weekend trainings for guidance and direction. For example, an air scent dog needs to pass a 20 acre prelim test within 6 months of starting and then in short order an 80acre day test and a 40 acre night test. Similar requirements for the trailing dogs. 

Most people find out what is involved after sitting for 6 hours in any weather in the the insects and briars and that is it. It really is what it is but those who stay usually stick pretty good.

Fundraising....we do raise funds through grants for the most part.....the application process is tedious and requires transparent records and clear documentation of success but a $15,000 grant will outdo a whole lot of barbeques. We do do some local fundraising with stores though (local grant programs) and do need to get better.

We have also had donations from family members of search victims (both alive and deceased). It is very important to be good stewards of their money; it seems that many people who donate are often NOT the ones who have the means to do so and most of the folks on our team are pretty middle class. 

Grant funds are VERY targeted, with our most recent goal being to replace our fire department hand me down radios with new digital ones due to some FCC changes coming up (dont ask me, I am the map guru) and better transmission. They are very expensive. We have also tried to get a small 4 cycle boat engine for the jon boat. We are fairly well stocked with a trailer, a boat, a laptop, printer, 7 handheld GPS and 7 Astro GPS units., and a generator..all of which have taken years to acquire..a teammate has his own repeater but we need to get out own....so we tend to spend grant money on those things---and some grants have gone towards seminar fees (we were able to use a grant to set up contract training on a monthy basis for water cadaver as well as trailing and it was good)

The extent of our 'helping' teammates make expenses is tuition assistance (approved in the grants) to approved seminars. Ironically we got our boat because a group of us got assistance for a water cadaver seminar. Looked at each other and said "Well we WOULD have paid $300 each for the seminar..." so each of us wrote out a $300 check to buy the boat 

------------

Seltzer was the team who spoke to your club a FEMA team? They do get all that and they get paid for deployments but I don't know the rest. The local wilderness teams usually foot 100% of their own bill. ......


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I strongly considered trying to join our local team (without a dog for starters) but decided against it because 1) I work full time and do not have a job where I can just leave on a moment's notice, 2) a friend of mine told me it costs about $1500 for your own gear up front (not including the costs you incur as you travel, train, certify...), and 3) it would take up the spare time I currently split between my three dogs, so I'd have to quit Schutzhund, SDA, agility...everything. The group I was looking at said training is like 10 hours a week and sometimes on the other side of the state. People attend at least one seminar out of the state each year. You must be on call 24/7/365. They quoted costs of a couple thousand dollars per year (not coming out of any fundraising or group fund). You have to do field support training before they will even consider letting you get a dog. There is also the physical fitness aspect which is probably another reason to knock me out of the running right now, as I have been suffering from more frequent migraines and also have a joint problem with my foot which I'd probably have to address more aggressively in order to be fit for SAR without slowing others down and risking further injury to myself.

I see SAR as a *serious* commitment, like being an EMT or volunteer firefighter. Not something that you do to have fun with your dog or because your dog is smart and sniffs at the ground. I do not expect SAR teams to bend over backward to accommodate people that simply cannot realistically make the commitment necessary for a SAR team to effectively rescue and recover.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I volunteered with my local rescue squad for 20 years. They paid for all my training and my equipment. If I got hurt in the building or on a call their insurance covered my injury completely. I paid for all my gas to and from the building or if I was responding from home, to the call. I paid for my food when I was on duty. I gave freely of my time. 

Apparently with this SAR gig, you are expected to give your time freely, spend your own money on your gear, on your dog, gas, training, etc, etc. If your dog gets hurt, the responsibility is yours. No thanks, you guys can have it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Many teams (ours included) have VFIS which insures a lot of rescue squads and volunteer fire departments and will cover human injuries......our team supplies equipment a normal camper would *not* require (the radios, trailer, boat, mapping etc)...most of our personal gear is basic camping and first aid stuff and dog stuff........

Correct me if I am wrong but I think local governments provide funding for rescue squads........some states will let K9-SAR sit under that umbrella in terms of getting in on lower rates for insurance etc and some wil not.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Many teams (ours included) have VFIS which insures a lot of rescue squads and volunteer fire departments and will cover human injuries......our team supplies equipment a normal camper would *not* require (the radios, trailer, boat, mapping etc)...most of our personal gear is basic camping and first aid stuff and dog stuff........
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong but I think local governments provide funding for rescue squads........some states will let K9-SAR sit under that umbrella in terms of getting in on lower rates for insurance etc and some wil not.



When I first joined the squad we got VERY limited funding from the county. We owned out building, we paid the utilities on it, we owned our ambulances, we paid for the fuel deliveries, and maintenance on the vehicles. All supplies were paid for by our squad. We fundraised HEAVILY throughout the year and one of our members was a financial wizard with investments. We had quite the portfolio. 
As the county slowly moved toward a more paid/volunteer model all of that changed. The county now owns the building and ambulances. And like the oldtimers used to fear it gave the county more control. I stopped running a few years ago because the politics got so bad. 

My point is, just through mainly donations and hard core fundraising and serious investing of those funds we supported an entire rescue squad. What you guys are doing is important AND very expensive AND potentially dangerous- to people and dogs. There should be funds available to help cover your expenses as well as injuries, to humans and canines.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

selzer said:


> I think, these are her exact words:
> 
> 
> I do not go around trying to twist people's words. This sounds to me that people are sitting there delving into your financial situation and turning you down if you do not meet a standard of living that allows for you to "easily afford it."
> ...


You absolutely twisted my words Selzer. Those were 2 completely different paragraphs. First about an individual person and that they should not try to join a SAR team unless they have the money to afford the equipement, the gas, etc. You need to be equipped with the proper cloths, packs, shoes, compasses, etc. You get into it knowing that no one but you is paying to drive 100 miles in the middle of the night when gas is $4.29 a gallon. This has nothing to do with an elitist mindset, but the realities of what it costs to do this.

The second just simply that--that teams do not accept anyone with a dog who wants to join.

But I hate to say it--unless you have signed somethign to the effect that your job does give you the flexibility to go on searches within reason, no, you probably won't be on the team. We do not schedule searches and if you are in an employment situation in which you do not have vacation time or cannot make up hours, then it's not the right time for you to do SAR.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> as well as injuries, to humans and canines.


And again...this entire thread was started and has been about a SAR dog having cancer or HD or whatever and having the vet bills paid for just because you deserve....things not even related to SAR!

I am SURE your rescue squad was not paying for your treatment if you fell out of a tree cutting it down and broke your arm.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> And again...this entire thread was started and has been about a SAR dog having cancer or HD or whatever and having the vet bills paid for just because you deserve....things not even related to SAR!
> 
> I am SURE your rescue squad was not paying for your treatment if you fell out of a tree cutting it down and broke your arm.


No Justine, it hasn't. Originally it was about if you would fundraise for your pet. Then Nancy said she wouldn't even fundraise for her sar dog and Castlemaid asked if there wasn't an insurance or a fund in place because you'd think there is something, especially if a dog gets hurt on the job and THAT is how the topic drifted towards SAR dogs. 

And from then on I've said over and over and over and over again that there should be a fund or an insurance in case something happens during the training or during a search and if there is an insurance in place it'll probably cover everything, on the job, off the job, training. Just like your health insurance does for yourself.

And yes, if a SAR dog ends up having cancer, I don't think there is anything wrong with going public and raising funds for that dog. I doubt that you and I could cover the costs of such a dog. And as long as that dog has provided a public service there is absolutely nothing wrong with it but that is where our opinions differ and that is okay. Not everybody can have the same opinion.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Would you? *Doesn't matter if it's to cover a surgery or for cancer. *
> 
> *Would you make a difference between a shelter dog and a police/search and rescue or service dog* because they have a purpose or do you think it's a living beeing and they all deserve to live or simply rehome the dog or put it to sleep just because it can't be worked.





Mrs.K said:


> Do you think it's justified for them to raise the money *even though they didn't get injured in the line of duty?*


These are some of your first comments on the subject, Sandra. I would say from the beginning that the thread was about dogs NOT specifically injured during a search. The paths that the thread took after that is not what it started out as.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Sandra, just to clarify your original post ASKED if you would make a difference between a pet and a SAR dog........which is why I responded the way I did and actually I said I was not sure if I would take help IF my dog was hurt during a search. No I would not ask but I have seen local vets stich up a dog for free....I don't feel bad about that but I would not ask.

This "give and take" thing is your own opinion. I personally don't know any other SAR folks who feel this way...including a few who are poor and proud to whom many have slipped hand me down stuff.

It is a mindset I do not know. I feel I am given tenfold when a family member comes up to us with tears in their eyes and thanks us for caring or the rush you get when someone is found alive. I don't know what else to really say.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I also really do not know that just because the dog has provided a public service makes it more deserving than someone's beloved pet. Think of the old folks for who a little yapper dog is their only companion......

The SAR dog, the police dog.....they have it good.....they get to satisfy their drives on a regular basis, they are well cared for, they have a lot of contact with their handlers. They get to hunt and swim and chase balls. What dog wouldn't love that life? 

I think putting an alernate value on any life is going down a path we should not because then, is the old lady with altzheimers *worth* less than the hunter with a family to feed? You know.....just saying.......


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Nancy, 
the give and take thing is common sense. A SAR team can't operate without funding. A rescue squad can't operate without funding (if they have to live off of donations), a non-profit organization can't operate without funding. They have to take donations in order to run properly. No Rescue organization can run without funding. 

And yes, when you have given 15 years and your dog ends up with cancer there is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong, with asking for help and taking a little bit in return. 

It is really sad that in this society all you are allowed to is to give give give give give give give and give some more. Doesn't matter what it is about but it's frowned upon or people are scared to ask for help because people could think badly about you. No, that is not how it is supposed to be. If you are a giving person, which you are, there should be NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING wrong, to ask for help when in need. 

And how many times, during a lifetime is that going to happen? Maybe once? IF it EVER happens. So what the heck is so greedy about that? Let's say you serve 20 years on the team. You've been through two dogs, your third one just got certified and then it happens. Your dog gets hurt and you can't pay the bill yourself because you are going through a hardship. 

So what is wrong, after 20 years of service, saving people, bringing closure to families and being out there all that time, with going public and saying "Help us safe one of our dogs."

It's a society with a huge helper syndrome... and it is so darn wrong if you can't even ask for help even though you helped others for 20+ years. 

I am not sure if this is supposed to display "humble" people or if it is a fake society that is trying to portray itself as a charity and humble just waiting for somebody else to do the job (fundraising) for them, so nobody can say anything about them or point the finger at you. 





jocoyn said:


> Sandra, just to clarify your original post ASKED if you would make a difference between a pet and a SAR dog........which is why I responded the way I did and actually I said I was not sure if I would take help IF my dog was hurt during a search. No I would not ask but I have seen local vets stich up a dog for free....I don't feel bad about that but I would not ask.
> 
> This "give and take" thing is your own opinion. I personally don't know any other SAR folks who feel this way...including a few who are poor and proud to whom many have slipped hand me down stuff.
> 
> It is a mindset I do not know. I feel I am given tenfold when a family member comes up to us with tears in their eyes and thanks us for caring or the rush you get when someone is found alive. I don't know what else to really say.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think that if there ARE funds available, it makes sense that they go to certified/active teams or dogs, for gear or medical issues related to the work. I can't fathom any group of any dog discipline that has a fund so large that it could meet all the needs for gear, insurance, and health of active teams *and* has funds leftover for non-sport/work related injuries and/or non certified dogs.

For example I just became vice president of a new SDA club and we've all paid in our dues for this year. We're looking to hold a trial and we've got several dogs preparing but we need to get them registered with SDA/UWD first, so since we have the money we are paying the registration fees from the club's fund. However, I would not expect I could get money to register a non-club dog, or register a club dog for something else, if that makes sense. I do agility, but I don't expect my SDA club to help fund my dog's agility fees even though it might make him a better SDA dog and make me a better trainer more valuable to the SDA club.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Sandra.

You know you asked for opinions. People gave them. It should have ended there.

Instead when people did NOT share your opinion (and some did) instead of just going 'oh' ok, you decided that YOUR opinion is the one that counts and we all need to come around to YOUR way. 

Ain't gonna happen. 

So you react then people react back. We are in an endless loop here.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

No, never said that you have to come around. I said earlier that everybody is entitled to his own opinion, it would be sad if we all had the same, than we wouldn't have anything to debade or discuss about. 



jocoyn said:


> Sandra.
> 
> You know you asked for opinions. People gave them. It should have ended there.
> 
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Fund raising, so long as the reason the money is needed is disclosed, should be fine regardless as to whether the dog is a pet, a SAR dog, a police dog, a service dog, a rescue dog. The dog, regardless to what it does for its owners is a dog first. If the dog needs a surgery that will prolong their life, or relieve pain, and the owner cannot pay for the surgery themselves, and they can find people willing to donate to them, then more power to them. So long as the money goes for whatever purpose the fund raising listed. 

I mean, if you said, "abandoned dog needs hip surgery to relieve pain" collected the money and used it for your own dog, _that _would be fraudulent. If you said, "I am currently unemployed and my dog needs hip surgery" and someone chooses to donate for that hip surgery, then why should there be any problem with that. It comes down to pride I think, because sometimes even people with an emergency fund can run through those funds if situations do not improve. 

So the questions becomes, would you ask for help for your dog to get veterinary care, or would you forgo veterinary treatment and allow the dog to suffer, or would you put the dog down rather than ask for help?

OMG, GSDElsa, I had three separate paragraphs that were not completely separate thoughts. Excuse me for thinking that maybe you also connect your thoughts from one paragraph to another. I did not sit back and think, "Gee, how can I twist Justine's words today" I simply replied to what I read. Maybe, just maybe I misread what you wrote, or maybe you did not write clearly. But what is the difference? The job currently requires people to be in my opinion well-to-do by what everyone has written.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I would contribute to a fund that helped covered expenses of a SAR Team that has been called out by law enforcement. And/or team equipment. If it was local I would probably help fund raise for them. 

If the fund was to start covering dog care it would be a slippery slope in my mind, I can see the potential for a lot of abuse there.

Called out by law enforcement would be a biggie for me. A lot of people seem to train for SAR as more of a sport then anything, they know that they won't be called out. 

And that's not meant to insult them at all. I train in personal protection but I'm pretty sure my dog is never going to have to leap thru a window to save me from a mugger at an ATM machine.....


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Betty that is absolutely true and one of the things I tell people when they are looking to join a team. Talk to me about your callouts.

The other bad one is "teams" that are not called out but show up. The black sheep of the SAR community inlcluding a lot who "claim" 9-11 and Katrina!


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Yep, heard and seen that.........


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I do have liability for my dogs as well but it's nowhere near as good as the one we had in Germany. That would cover you for 10 000 000 EUROS and I just paid a 12 Euro premium per month. Over here it's barely a 100 000 Dollars and you pay ridiculous amounts of premiums to have that coverage...


Hmmm ... for what it's worth, liability for my dog is covered in my renter's insurance. It's a shadow policy, meaning it follows us anywhere we go, it's not just valid on our own property. So if my dog were to bite someone in Lowville on a visit, it would be covered. It's $1,000,000 and the difference between $10,000 and $1,000,000 in liability was $36 for the year. It's through USAA.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> Hmmm ... for what it's worth, liability for my dog is covered in my renter's insurance. It's a shadow policy, meaning it follows us anywhere we go, it's not just valid on our own property. So if my dog were to bite someone in Lowville on a visit, it would be covered. It's $1,000,000 and the difference between $10,000 and $1,000,000 in liability was $36 for the year. It's through USAA.


I definitely have to talk to them. They did not tell us that they have a Million but maybe that is because we were in Germany.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Is that clearly spelled out for what you are doing with the dog? Most Homeowners policies would cover an incidental bite by a pet (then jack up your rates, tell you to get rid of the dog and drop you) but would not cover a bite by a working dog. That is why our team covers the members (and dogs) with liability.

ANother example. My mother has in home caregivers. IF a guest slips on my floor and breaks her leg, homeowners liablity or even an umbrella policy would cover that but if an household employee suffers a similar injury (not even related to work) Too bad. [which is why we choose to pay over $2000 a year for workmens comp even though it is not required for employers with only 2 employees)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

USAA is usually pretty good with their insurance coverages and when the lady from USAA came to inspect the house I told her what I am doing with the dogs. I had to send in pictures of the dogs, their age and what I'm doing with them. However, I need to check back with them about liability. So far I have not had any issues with USAA at all and their rates are not that expensive either.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I would. In fact when I was a college student my Golden Retriever was very sick and I was not able to pay for her veterinary treatment (well over $1000 and they still expected to need more treatment) I contacted several veterinary funds to see if any could help. Some of them said they didn't do that type of illness, some said my dog was too old... Then I found a woman who had started a wonderful fund, to help people with vet care for their pets, and they helped me to pay for my dog's care.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Oh I forgot to add as far as whether it worked, well it turned out that what all the symptoms were pointing to turned out to NOT be what was wrong with my dog, it turned out to be several unfortunate, crazy coincidences that happened together causing the signs to mimic something else, and she recovered with treatment although we never did find out the actual causes. 
For some reason unexplained issues seemed to be my Golden's specialty for years, from cycles of weight loss without diet changing to an enlarged spleen with no discernible cause.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Was this post created about a young female GSD with hip dysplasia? I saw an ad on CL yesterday and someone was asking for donations to help cover surgery. 

But to answer the original question - no.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

I thought of a tangent that I can add that is related to this.

Almost daily people are trying to get me to pay too much for food products that I do not like to support little league teams or some other activity for their children. What is different if someone wants me to pay so a child can play a game?

I can say no to that and if someone is trying to get money for care of a dog I can also say no.

On the other hand, if there is good stuff and a decent price I will buy it even if it is not a fundraiser.

Commence hating me now.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No, 

I HATE those things, refused to participate, and did not let my kids participate. Most of the money is made by the fundraising company and they give no alternate option for the kid to collect money to the project (other than you can donate on your own and the big eyed kid does not get "credit" and the kids get "rewards" based on what they sell. Even Girl Scout sales offer "rewards".

We are teaching our kids that volunteering and being part of a team earns them something other than a good feeling. Maybe that is where this comes from.

So , no I do NOT donate money so middle class kids can do middle class things; that is the parents' responsiblity. JMO. Schools are strapped. My SIL earns the huge [sarcasm here] salary of $30K to teach other folks kids. TAX ME so that we can pay him a decent salary. TAX ME so that the schools can get what they need to get a decent education. Public Education and the USA go WAY back together!


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

The trick of a good fundraiser is to do it so well the cause is a minor factor.

If the fundraiser is well thought out the organization will have minimal startup cost and expenses so the org gets most of the money that is paid in. The fundraiser should be either so much fun or such a good product that the organization is just a final thing to tip the balance and get the customer to buy in. That way even if everyone does not care about the cause there will be some people still buying.

If the hypethetical person were selling great homemade fudge brownies with ice cream for a few dollars I would be likely to buy them even if it was being done to buy a new purse to carry their little dog in. I would just want the food.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would be 100% fine with something like that. I would just want to know who it was and would only decline if it was supporting a group with very contrary goals to mine. I am the same way with retail purchases as much as I can be.

(for example I don't care how wonderful the brownies were, I would not buy from the KKK)


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

> (for example I don't care how wonderful the brownies were, I would not buy from the KKK)


I wish you hadn't posted that. Now I keep having twisted thoughts about the white chocolate Koo Klux Konfections baked by elves in white hoods. Some days my brain is more twisted than normal.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I would be 100% fine with something like that. I would just want to know who it was and would only decline if it was supporting a group with very contrary goals to mine. I am the same way with retail purchases as much as I can be.
> 
> (for example I don't care how wonderful the brownies were, I would not buy from the KKK)


Same here, I love to give but not to certain things. I would not support any kind of racism, peeta or something I can't go conform with.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Also wanted to add the fund that helped us did not do "fundraisers" like that, they made t-shirts and bags and the money from the sales goes to the fund. The woman who started it did so because her dog had to have chemo and a leg amputated due to osteosarcoma and she started making these t-shirts to first pay off her dog's bills, and then after that she started using the profits to help other pets.












I'm not sure what the alternative would have been for me and my dog, but I guess a lot of people don't think it's right to ask for help with a dog's vet care. I guess people would say I should never have gotten a dog, although I do not think I could have just left her in the streets (she was a stray originally.)


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

My answer is no...in the sense that it would greatly depend on what the surgery is for. I would bake say treats or something for other dogs and put them up for sale. I would also pawn my items, etc. I could always get the material things back later on. It also depends on the survival possibility of my pets as well.

ETA: I would also get pet insurance as well. Does anyone know how many pet insurances a person could sign up for at once?


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Fund raiser I was happy to participate in and will do so again

Retired K-9 becomes family pet - Loomis News


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