# Walking along then (no trigger) BAM, vicious biting



## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Hi all--so I was walking Leo (7 months old, mouthy GSD) outdoors and leaving kibble in snow for search and find activity on the way back---honest to G-d, there was no trigger, Leo jumped vertically and repeatedly bite (teeth bared) through my coat all over my arm and hand (my hand is still healing from August burn, which is the dominant hand that he goes for when mouthing). I shortened leash and put foot on leash; however, he continued for about 10-15 minutes--I could not control him or stop him. I did not hit him to stop not did I attempt to dominate like Casar Millan (head to the ground until submission)...I basically took it because I could not get a hold of any part of him to stop him...huge bone bruise on my forearm and hand scraped and bruised. We are having him evaluated at our vet after New Year as we are out of town with him. He is now on a month-to-month evaluative probation with us to even keep him in the home. We have continued to work with him but he continues to bite. 

Our strategies during biting: 
-turn around and ignore--he bites our backsides and any other available bite-able area
-tap nose--uh, once, and he thought it was play
-time out to crate--difficult to get him into crate with additional biting
-martingale collar, prong collar, regular collar---the Martingale is adequate and regular and prong are mediocre
-omitting walk and only exercising for poop/pee---turns into play, although he does do his business
-walking and if bites, put to ground until submission--he will calm briefly and then full force bite

6 months of this---and honestly, it is *not* normal puppy-being-puppy, mouthy biting---it is vicious. I get scared. It hurts and perm. scars. This is not normal. If you read through my posts, his actions are as consistent as they are unprovoked and have no trigger (besides saying no.) Again, he has slowly been transitioned out of his ex-pen because of our elderly GSD, Shane, and he is ok with obvious supervision. When he hits his red zone, there is no stopping or correcting, nor is there a trigger that we can alter to prevent. It is pretty devastating and overwhelming. 

Any advice for temporarily/permanently stopping this biting (I have read ALL bite inhibition links on board) through your experiences. Do we/I need to be more assertive/physical in order to correct this behaviour and if so, how? Positive training is *not* working as it should. All trainers say he is not agressive, but is it maybe a lack of bonding that this is occuring? I was told he may "love" me but just doesn't respect me...true? Can this behaviour be changed and how?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Honestly, I'd take the advice of a experienced trainer that can see him in person during these episodes. This isn't something I'd be taking internet people's advice on


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Your vet is not going to be able to help. You need to find a good GSD trainer. An IPO club is a good place to start. 

This pup needs done serious boundaries and consequences for this type of behavior. Serious. 

Where are you located, maybe someone can point you to a good trainer. 

I had a similarish thing with my first male. I found a trainer that was 3 hours away and cost a small fortune. He humbled the heck out of me. But we got the issue resolved and my boy turned into one of the best dogs ever. 

But at this level, as you describe it, is not something internet trainers should help you with. It's outside the ethical scope. 

If you are in the MD/VA/PA/NJ/NY area, PM and I will give you the info on the guy I used.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i would say bye to the dog but that's just me. my wife got bit by one of ours by mistake when some guys dog attacked ours. julie attacked back and mistakenly got my wife's leg. a few times i was almost bit walking into the house. both dogs charge barking 'till the last second when they realize it's me. if i ever got bit i would look past it. i can look past a mistake but if any of them ever viciously bit on purpose that would be the last day we had that dog. but again that's just me. good luck!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I would get professional help, but use a muzzle in the meantime.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Midnite mouthed me and attempted to bite when I got him and he was about 8 months or so. I remember he gave me a bruise on my leg. Within a week and lots of redirection he has never done it again. If they don't know its wrong or are trained another behavior they will keep doing it.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

You need a serious trainer who knows what they are doing. None of this hugs and kisses positive only stuff. There is a place for positive training (I use it on my dog), but there is also room for the heavy handed (but fair, done by knowledgeable trainers) training too. 

At 6 months and acting like this, your dog is on the wrong path and will end up causing you alot of grief. There should be some serious dog people in the Chicago area, look up a protection trainer or Sch. club. 

Read up on this trainer (I don't have personal experience with him, but appears to be big in training)

http://www.kulladogs.com/new_training.html

Good luck!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdsar said:


> Your vet is not going to be able to help. You need to find a good GSD trainer. An IPO club is a good place to start.
> 
> This pup needs done serious boundaries and consequences for this type of behavior. Serious.
> 
> ...


^^^^ THIS! This is beyond the scope of redirecting with a toy. You are 3 hours from the O.G. Indy club. You would have Mike Diehl, Sean O'Kane, Christina Kennedy. I would call this club and see what they would do for you.

United Schutzhund Clubs of America ? Region/Events

Someone that knows this breed and fully understands aggression is your best bet.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

*Leo, today, he has a halo, yesterday, horns and a tail.*



gsdsar said:


> Your vet is not going to be able to help. This pup needs done serious boundaries and consequences for this type of behavior. Serious.


I wholeheartedly agree that he needs consequences and boundaries---my question is what is the best type of correction/consequence? I have been leery of a tap to the nose or a pop of the leash/collar? What does everyone recommend? 

I am having Leo evaluated for any type of physical pain that we cannot see---which is usually the recommendation for unprovoked biting. Additionally, he has been sleeping like a pup (up @ 11a and a later nap) and then down at 9 or 10...

I'm not relying on the boards as the end all be all, but all recommendations are welcome and experiences (not necessarily trainers but what has worked for others) is extremely welcome. 

I love this guy and want him to remain with us, but not if he is aggressive. If I can find a way to stop the biting, we are good to go---he is very adaptable to "shaping" and I think this hurdle of biting can be overcome. 

We have our next 1 on 1 with the trainer on 1/11...and LLombardo (YAY!!!! She is the best ) will hopefully meet me at Leo in the near future.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I'd correct a dog of his age for putting teeth on me, unless it was completely accidental. Probably with a harsh enough prong collar correction that he wouldn't want to do it again. This is not a behavior that I would continue to allow, redirect or ignore any longer. He's not a puppy anymore.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> *I'd correct a dog of his age for putting teeth on me, unless it was completely accidental.* Probably with a harsh enough prong collar correction that he wouldn't want to do it again. This is not a behavior that I would continue to allow, redirect or ignore any longer. He's not a puppy anymore.


My dog would be having a come to jesus meeting.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> My dog would be having a come to jesus meeting.


So would mine, but it appears the OP isn't prepared for harsh corrections. Can't let these dogs walk all over you. 

What about playful mouthing, do you allow that?


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Agree with Jax and gsdsar. That IPO club sounds like a good start.

I was overwhelmed with Paisley when she was young (not to this level though, but in different ways). I drove 3 hours each way and it was the BEST decision we could have ever made! My current trainer is 1.5 hrs away (although I still try to see the one further on occasion). The distance doesn't bother me - I would rather drive that far for a good trainer that I like working with and that understands my dogs and breed issues, than settle for someone who doesn't understand the breed nearly as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

eddie1976E said:


> So would mine, but it appears the OP isn't prepared for harsh corrections. Can't let these dogs walk all over you.
> 
> What about playful mouthing, do you allow that?


I've never had an issue with that. My puppy came with incredible bite inhibition. But no, there is no reason for a dog to have his teeth on me. The only time Seger has ever bit me was when my hand got in the way of the treat in training. Jax will mouth my hand on my way thru the house when I get home for attention. But there are no teeth involved.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

eddie1976E said:


> So would mine, but it appears the OP isn't prepared for harsh corrections. Can't let these dogs walk all over you.
> 
> What about playful mouthing, do you allow that?


If the OP wasn't prepared for corrections, they probably shouldn't have gotten a German Shepherd. It's really not the type of dog that should just be allowed to do whatever they want. IMO


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

eddie1976E said:


> So would mine, but it appears the OP isn't prepared for harsh corrections. Can't let these dogs walk all over you.
> 
> What about playful mouthing, do you allow that?


we always walk with a prong and i prolly would've picked the dog up by the prong and swung it into a tree. i don't abuse my animals but a vicious attack i would have it stop any way i could real fast. i wouldn't be standing there taking it that's for sure.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> I'd correct a dog of his age for putting teeth on me, unless it was completely accidental. Probably with a harsh enough prong collar correction that he wouldn't want to do it again. This is not a behavior that I would continue to allow, redirect or ignore any longer. He's not a puppy anymore.


Yes...this would be more my approach...."nose taps"..what the heck is a nose tap and what's it supposed to accomplish? Sounds more like a technique to induce the dog to play/bite harder....

Sorry, but I wouldn't stand for any biting at this point unless I was play fighting. I guess I'm old school....I'd let the dog know in one second the behavior is unacceptable..and it wouldn't be a "time out" or turning my back on the dog...

I think it's good that you are making a plan of action if you feel incapable of giving the dog corrections above a nose tap or reluctance to use a prong. I wouldn't let it go any longer as the dog is 7 months already and testing his boundaries with complete impunity......



SuperG


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Jax08 said:


> My dog would be having a come to jesus meeting.



At the level it sounds like this dog is acting, so would mine. 

OP, glad you are seeking out a possible medical issue for this. 

Unfortunately, the type and level of correction that your boy may need, is not something that can be explained or recommended on a web board. Mainly because none of us are actually there to not only see the behavior happen, but to judge the dogs response to a correction. It would be too easy for someone not knowledgeable to over or under correct, or to not recognize when it's been effective. Or heck, if its even needed. 

That's why everyone is saying find a trainer. It sounds like you have done good ones near you. They are going to be a Godsend. 

Good luck.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Yepp, definitely a come to Jesus moment.. 

As other suggested, a trainer ASAP, which you are doing, great! And in the mean time, NO biting of any kind, play or otherwise. muzzle him until you can get a handle on this.. that's for the safety of the humans around him and HIM.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> If the OP wasn't prepared for corrections, they probably shouldn't have gotten a German Shepherd. It's really not the type of dog that should just be allowed to do whatever they want. IMO


Agreed. A good trainer to train the dog AND the parent.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

wyoung2153 said:


> Yepp, definitely a come to Jesus moment..
> 
> As other suggested, a trainer ASAP, which you are doing, great! And in the mean time, NO biting of any kind, play or otherwise. muzzle him until you can get a handle on this.. that's for the safety of the humans around him and HIM.



What if your dog is jewish?


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Thank you all for the recommendations---Oh I am ready to physically (harsh) correct Leo---fully and wholeheartedly---not out of anger or frustration (or my pain) but to truly correct him---we are going to get him fitted for the right prong collar (we have one that was measured by a teen at petsmart). 

I think he reads me as a non-assertive owner and has taken advantage (and this is TOTALLY on me, working on that--odd b/c it is *only* in aspects with him, heck, i taught HS for 5 years and work in politics, thick skinned, pretty mellow) and *this advantage* is what needs to end. I also understand a regimented day (scheduled activities, wake/sleep time, training and shaping) is required as well, which I will transition to immediately.

With the prong, the correction is a "pop" of the leash, correct? I just want to correct him correctly. Again, thank you all, *so* much for replies--and keep them coming!


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I would wait to get a knowledgeable trainer to teach you how to correctly pop the prong. This isn't something I would want to try on my own if I were in your shoes.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

martemchik said:


> What if your dog is jewish?


Then I'd introduce the dog to a "messiah moment".


SuperG


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Then I'd introduce the dog to a "messiah moment".
> 
> 
> SuperG


Take care with that. His whole world view would change in an instant.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> I'd correct a dog of his age for putting teeth on me, unless it was completely accidental. Probably with a harsh enough prong collar correction that he wouldn't want to do it again. This is not a behavior that I would continue to allow, redirect or ignore any longer. He's not a puppy anymore.





GatorDog said:


> If the OP wasn't prepared for corrections, they probably shouldn't have gotten a German Shepherd. It's really not the type of dog that should just be allowed to do whatever they want. IMO


 Yep. Yep Yep Yep x 10. Either know what you're doing enough to prevent unwanted behaviors like this or be prepared to correct a hard dog. 



MamaofLEO said:


> With the prong, the correction is a "pop" of the leash, correct? I just want to correct him correctly. Again, thank you all, *so* much for replies--and keep them coming!


It sounds like you have not been correcting him properly on the prong, and probably more like nagging him if it didn't phase him enough to stop it in the moment at least. When I think of "pop" I do not think of anything that would be enough to stop a dog with this kind of determination and value for doing what he's doing. It'd be more like a very swift and quick jerk and release, if it were me... Then just keep on going on your walk like nothing ever happened, and praise calmly when he recovers/catches up and isn't biting anymore.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

SuperG said:


> Then I'd introduce the dog to a "messiah moment".
> 
> 
> SuperG


Ha! yes... was trying to think of the correct way to word that.. this is it.. Lol


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

martemchik said:


> What if your dog is Jewish?


 This MUST be the funniest post from you in 2014, and it will be noted accordingly, as I am not a fan, period end quote. 


Many years ago I was told a fairy tale about GSDs. It went like this. "A K-9 has a certain pressure on the brain" and this is why *that *dog is selected as a police dog. Yeah, I've heard them all.

I would not rule out a seizure. That could be medical > ?

However, I think it's training or lack of, nothing you wrote leads me to believe otherwise. Bam, the dog is in cruising mode and boom the dog locks on the handlers arm, wild eyed rabbit bite, no recollection of the moment. I might have instantly shot the dog in the head, but perhaps a kick in the ribs may have accomplished more > ?

Something is wrong with you're dog. If you allow this animal around children, you might meet Bubba in Jail and Bubba will define the moment for you !!!!


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

martemchik said:


> What if your dog is jewish?


A Mount Sinai meeting?


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> If the OP wasn't prepared for corrections, they probably shouldn't have gotten a German Shepherd. It's really not the type of dog that should just be allowed to do whatever they want. IMO


My thought exactly. These are not goldens or poodles. They are big, potentially aggressive animals. I agree with what her trainer said--the dog may 'love' her, but certainly doesn't respect her. Time to get that respect. Sometimes you get hurt doing it, comes with the territory, but if you get that respect and lose YOUR fear, you will have a great dog. If you need a GOOD trainer to help you do that, then do it--follow some of the recommendations already given on finding a good trainer or sch club.

Susan


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

MamaofLEO said:


> Thank you all for the recommendations---Oh I am ready to physically (harsh) correct Leo---fully and wholeheartedly---not out of anger or frustration (or my pain) but to truly correct him---we are going to get him fitted for the right prong collar (we have one that was measured by a teen at petsmart).


Again, please seek out the help of a professional. Not only can they help you with any physical corrections that might be warranted, they can also help you understand WHY your dog is behaving in such a way. 

I understand that you feel that your pup is exhibiting TRUE aggression during those outbursts. And although extremely rare, it could happen. But TRUE aggression and an over zealous pup would be corrected differently. A professional would be able to help you tell the difference in the behavior and help you with the right corrections...and keep you and your pup safe. 

I strongly urge you to seek professional help.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Corrections have their place, I firmly believe in keeping things as black/white as possible. BUT I also believe they should be dealt properly in both timing and severity. We all make mistakes, we are human after all but you can seriously scar a dog without truly meaning to. Finding a good trainer who understands not only the breed but the dog in front of you is important. If the trainer has just one tool in their belt whether it be an ecollar, prong, martingale, etc. or one style of training then I'd walk away if I don't see improvement shortly. You're not limited; others have mentioned some pretty heavy hitters with impressive resumes that are within decent driving distances


I understand your frustration; a GSD is a large strong dog which does require unique handling at times. You're not alone in having a problem dog, and it's not a bad thing to ask for help. Personally, I wish I asked sooner as I believe I would have been able to help correct certain behaviors sooner.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with everything Alexis has said and would seek some help using the prong. It's not just about the proper fit and what level of correction to use but a dog needs to understand what the correction means and how to work that out. A possible issue is that this dog has already been allowed to escalate to this point and may not take too kindly to a prong correction. I have made the same mistake myself with my uncle's working dog (not a GSD) who he usually jogs on a prong but has never fitted it properly or really used it for training or corrections. One time he left for the day and asked me to take her out for potty and let off some steam. She came out of the dog box basically mauling me with mouthiness, nothing truly aggressive or attacking but an adult dog of that size being mouthy HURTS and can be dangerous even if they don't mean anything by it. So I put her prong on, give her one good but not overly harsh pop (a pop that would get the attention of my adult male GSD but not shut him down) and she started coming up the leash at me. After that I just said I'm not handling this dog if she is completely out of control and cannot even be controlled using normal means. The tool was there and I have experience using it but the dog had no relationship with me and no respect for anyone, so just slapping the prong on and giving some fair corrections only frustrated her and aroused some more real aggression.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Contact Jonathan _*TODAY!!*_ at http://chicagocaninecompany.com/


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Contact Jonathan _*TODAY!!*_ at Chicago Canine Company Dog Training


Pretty much this


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

This dog needs an evaluation with a reputable and experienced trainer BEFORE an obviously inexperienced handler attempts a home made harsh correction. This could amp the dog up creating a worse reaction and far more serious injuries.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Skadi did the same thing. Our trainer taught me how to properly correct her and now if she goes to bite she stops herself.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> Honestly, I'd take the advice of a experienced trainer that can see him in person during these episodes. This isn't something I'd be taking internet people's advice on


Exactly.

The coming to Jesus advice scares me-- because we have no idea if the OP is capable and if the dog will go for it even worse from an inappropriate correction --dangerous!


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

You may not like what happens the first time. Skadi screamed like I was killing her. But it helped her to stay in her home. We were thinking seriously of giving her back. Now, she is great. I tried correcting her on my own without a trainer and she came up the leash at me and nipped harder. So you will NEED a trainer to show you how to do it. Now I rarely if ever need to do it anymore.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Lilie said:


> Again, please seek out the help of a professional. Not only can they help you with any physical corrections that might be warranted, they can also help you understand WHY your dog is behaving in such a way.
> 
> I understand that you feel that your pup is exhibiting TRUE aggression during those outbursts. And although extremely rare, it could happen. But TRUE aggression and an over zealous pup would be corrected differently. A professional would be able to help you tell the difference in the behavior and help you with the right corrections...and keep you and your pup safe.
> 
> I strongly urge you to seek professional help.


++++++1111
Also, look at getting a good prong collar... a Herm Sprenger... Petco and Petsmart have crap prong collars usually.
Also make sure that the trainer has GSD experience. Someone who just works with Labs and Goldens and Golden/ lab doodles rarely has the right stuff, IMHO.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Saphire said:


> This dog needs an evaluation with a reputable and experienced trainer BEFORE an obviously inexperienced handler attempts a home made harsh correction. This could amp the dog up creating a worse reaction and far more serious injuries.


 THAT ^^^^THAT
If what the poster described is what is actually happening with such a young dog this is a HUGE problem and well beyond anything people on this site should be chiming in with for corrections and tips.

Professional eyes looking at the situation to analyze it properly. Then (hopefully it's the best and most reliable person they can afford) doing WHATEVER they recommend to get a handle on this.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Oh, and speaking of Petco/Petsmart prong collars: Don't get the "easy" one with the clip. Get a collar where you have to pinch one of the prongs to pull two of the prongs apart. My girl had one with the clip, because I had trouble getting the prongs apart. She sat down to scratch, and the collar came flying off. This was in the middle of Minneapolis. Thankfully she just sat there and I was able to quickly reattach the leash to her flat collar.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> Exactly.
> 
> The coming to Jesus advice scares me-- because we have no idea if the OP is capable and if the dog will go for it even worse from an inappropriate correction --dangerous!


Since I made that comment let me reiterate. I recommended she contact IPO trainers, gave her the link for clubs and told her O.G. Indy with very highly qualified people.

I made the comment of "My dog would be having a come to jesus meeting." In response to Alexis only. Nowhere did I say "you need to give your dog..."

99% of the people on this thread have said to go to a trainer. This is beyond internet training advice.

OP - Jane is in the know much more than most of us for trainers in the area. Contact the person she recommended.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Jax08 said:


> Since I made that comment let me reiterate. I recommended she contact IPO trainers, gave her the link for clubs and told her O.G. Indy with very highly qualified people.
> 
> I made the comment of "My dog would be having a come to jesus meeting." In response to Alexis only. Nowhere did I say "you need to give your dog..."
> 
> ...



With you Jax08. I agreed and reiterated that I would not explain how to correct a dog I have never seen. 

It's a phrase, and yes, some may act on it. I hope not. Sounds like the OP has gotten lots of solid advice on what to do to help her dog. And it's a resounding "find a good trainer to show you what to do". 

I hate piddly footing around things. But this is an open forum, and so I am careful. But the OP needed to understand that this may not be a quick "pop" correction on a collar. If the dog is truly aggressive, and I am not convinced, then a good trainer needs to teach her how to get control.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The dog has been evaluated and it has been determined the dog is not aggressive. It's basically handler error and the OP has stated this and knows this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saphire said:


> This dog needs an evaluation with a reputable and experienced trainer BEFORE an obviously inexperienced handler attempts a home made harsh correction. This could amp the dog up creating a worse reaction and far more serious injuries.


T

This.

Please listen to what everyone is saying and get someone that knows GSDs to help you, hands on. If you take on this dog for real, then there could be a lot more than bruises. We are talking about stitches and plenty of them, along with bruises, possible infection. And the thing is, if that happens, the dog will get euthanized most likely. If you wait and have someone with experience with strong, working breeds help you, it may never get to that level. 

Good luck.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

the only thing that sucks is a trainer is going to have to see this behavior first hand. i'm still unsure if it was really rough uncontrolled play or an attempted mauling. the trainer is going to want to see and know for sure. the dog isn't going to act the same standing there with a stranger watching or may not be in the mood to do this at all.

i've had car make the worst noises then it stopped when i went to the mechanic. 

OP maybe you could try to somehow entice the behavior again while taking video.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> T
> 
> This.
> 
> ...


The dog does this to the OP only. The question is why does he do this? Is he getting attention or a reaction that makes him think it's a game?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

llombardo said:


> The dog has been evaluated and it has been determined the dog is not aggressive. It's basically handler error and the OP has stated this and knows this.


Are you kidding? What the owner has described is an ATTACK. If that doesn't change an evaluation to "potentially aggressive", I don't know what does.

The OP said there was no warning. The dog was sniffing out food in the snow and turned on her. Where was there an error made? did you see this? I don't know about anyone else but my dogs are bonded with me that I would have to wonder if they were rapid if they turned on me like that! That is simply NOT normal behavior.

The ONLY advice to give it get this dog into a trainer that understands the breed and understand aggression. An IPO trainer is the best bet for this.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

After seeing what a friend of mine went through with a golden retriever, who I felt was 'off' even as a puppy I highly recommend muzzling the dog and get a full medical checkup including thyroid and seizure activity. I no longer recommend anything more than that and a certified trainer. Some dogs are wired wrong, and without seeing the behaviour with my own eyes will I put someone at risk.
Please fo not rehome him. If you can't figure him out, find a real reputable person to take him it would be safest to put him to sleep. 
im saying these things because you said you honestly feel he is aggressive. Leave it up to a professional, he might just be playing!


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

MamaofLEO said:


> Thank you all for the recommendations---Oh I am ready to physically (harsh) correct Leo---fully and wholeheartedly---not out of anger or frustration (or my pain) but to truly correct him---we are going to get him fitted for the right prong collar (we have one that was measured by a teen at petsmart).
> 
> I think he reads me as a non-assertive owner and has taken advantage (and this is TOTALLY on me, working on that--odd b/c it is *only* in aspects with him, heck, i taught HS for 5 years and work in politics, thick skinned, pretty mellow) and *this advantage* is what needs to end. I also understand a regimented day (scheduled activities, wake/sleep time, training and shaping) is required as well, which I will transition to immediately.
> 
> With the prong, the correction is a "pop" of the leash, correct? I just want to correct him correctly. Again, thank you all, *so* much for replies--and keep them coming!


Please DO NOT BUY a prong from a major box store!!! They are way to large and will not correct properly and could cause serious injury!! Order a Herm Sprenger and seek a trainer to learn to correct safely and effectively!!! Prongs are not cruel if they are the correct size and fit but the one sold at Box Stores are way over sized and fit poorly!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

llombardo said:


> The dog has been evaluated and it has been determined the dog is not aggressive. It's basically handler error and the OP has stated this and knows this.



By who llombardo?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I can't remember, any chance you can discuss with the breeder and possibly return the dog to the breeder?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Are you kidding? What the owner has described is an ATTACK. If that doesn't change an evaluation to "potentially aggressive", I don't know what does.
> 
> The OP said there was no warning. The dog was sniffing out food in the snow and turned on her. Where was there an error made? did you see this? I don't know about anyone else but my dogs are bonded with me that I would have to wonder if they were rapid if they turned on me like that! That is simply NOT normal behavior.
> 
> The ONLY advice to give it get this dog into a trainer that understands the breed and understand aggression. An IPO trainer is the best bet for this.


This dog has seen multiple trainers and all had the same answer, so they are all wrong? What do puppies do when they are in their land shark phase? They come out of nowhere and the bigger the response the more they bite. Now if you have an older pup that was never taught not to do this as a younger pup, what do you think the dog is going to do? He will continue the behavior because this is fun for him. There is no way that more then one trainer and an Gsd club trainer don't see aggression if it's there. There is more going on. I just don't know how many trainers the OP needs to see? The dog is walking all over the OP and I'm not trying to be mean but as the dogs handler the handling has to be more serious and not fun and games. I'm not sure what the answer is, but the OP has already gone to one GSD Club and they do know GSDs there and well.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

llombardo said:


> The dog has been evaluated and it has been determined the dog is not aggressive. It's basically handler error and the OP has stated this and knows this.


 If I'm working with a dog, and things are only getting worse, then it shows I'm over my head.

If, once again, what the original person posted is actually what it sounds like is happening (so hard to evaluate over a forum like this! ) then, to me, this is out of the skill level of this person and things are going rapidly downhill. 

Since serious injury (and probably death to the dog) will be the outcome, it doesn't matter that the dog has been evaluated and is 'not aggressive' to others. There IS an issue with one person and it sounds scary to me. 

When I can't fix my dog, with whatever problem, then I go get help NOW and work on what is suggested and if we don't start seeing improvement I go to someone else. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person or bad dog owner or bad trainer.... just that I don't have the knowledge/skills and abilities to fix THIS problem so I'm going to get help FOR MY DOG until we get a handle on it.

Good luck


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Oh I am ready to physically (harsh) correct Leo---fully and wholeheartedly---not out of anger or frustration (or my pain) but to truly correct him-


No, you really aren't. Its going to be anger and frustration on your part now. Get help and be safe.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

From a previous thread...



MamaofLEO said:


> I stand corrected
> 
> We had another 1 on 1 with our trainer and I brought this topic up and _my_ trainer (because she is really training me to communicate better with Leo) basically said I need to get a hold of myself and remember he is a "mouthy, butt-headish, gatoring" little pup. It was a humbling and good experience today.
> 
> ...


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

With all due respect, those trainers may have not witnessed the behaviour OP is talking about. A dog that will turn on a dime does not display the behaviour 24/7.
ETA feel free to look at my previous posts re. Puppy biting. Puppy landshark-ing is much different than what I envision is happening threw OPs discriptions.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

ShenzisMom said:


> With all due respect, those trainers may have not witnessed the behaviour OP is talking about. A dog that will turn on a dime does not display the behaviour 24/7.
> ETA feel free to look at my previous posts re. Puppy biting. Puppy landshark-ing is much different than what I envision is happening threw OPs discriptions.


It's not that different for me to envision at all. Just a bigger pup that never learned.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Have you seen the dog? At this point its a matter of perception of words.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Wait... This dog just got neutered a couple of weeks ago.

Could this be a hormonal thing?


MamaofLEO said:


> Hi all-
> 
> Leo got neutered/microchipped on Friday and has been, essentially, confined to bed rest by vet for 10-14 days. He, however, has other plans for the next 2 weeks...acting exuberant and playful all with an e-collar on. Any suggestions on how to keep him low-key (if possible)...he is still confined to ex-pen, he is back on regular diet and gets many (although a picky palate) bully sticks, bones and GBTs (good-boy-treats). A side note---in the next few days, we will return ]


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

llombardo said:


> This dog has seen multiple trainers and all had the same answer, so they are all wrong? What do puppies do when they are in their land shark phase? They come out of nowhere and the bigger the response the more they bite. Now if you have an older pup that was never taught not to do this as a younger pup, what do you think the dog is going to do? He will continue the behavior because this is fun for him. There is no way that more then one trainer and an Gsd club trainer don't see aggression if it's there. There is more going on. I just don't know how many trainers the OP needs to see? The dog is walking all over the OP and I'm not trying to be mean but as the dogs handler the handling has to be more serious and not fun and games. I'm not sure what the answer is, but the OP has already gone to one GSD Club and they do know GSDs there and well.


With all due respect, a "GSD Club" does not impress me for training credentials. What GSD club? An AKC club that sees show lines? Worlds of difference between that trainer and an IPO trainer who sees the gambit of aggression.

You seem to be making many assumptions on this dog and the handler based on what? The threads you are reading? Have you personally witnessed this dog with the handler?

So the trainers didn't see aggression. The dog is maturing. He's getting bigger. So because the "multiple trainers" didn't see aggression means the dog is not aggressive? Regardless of the attack on the handler?

The bottom line is the dog turned on his handler. Period. He would not back off. He left visible injuries. This is not "land shark". This is serious.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

:wub:


ShenzisMom said:


> Have you seen the dog? At this point its a matter of perception of words.


Not as of yet because of timing. I'm hoping to meet up with the OP next week after the Holidays. I would like to go to one of the drop in classes at the GSD Club and get her to talk to one of the trainers. They also have the good prong collars for sale there. All the OP needs to do is get a choke collar a couple inches bigger for safety and we are in business


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree that the local GSD club may not be the best spot to get this evaluated. A choke collar a couple inches bigger isn't going to be the key to solving this. 
Get with someone that knows the breed and has dealt with more than the normal pet or competitive obedience type training. 
Call Jonathan, Momma of Leo.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> With all due respect, a "GSD Club" does not impress me for training credentials. What GSD club? An AKC club that sees show lines? Worlds of difference between that trainer and an IPO trainer who sees the gambit of aggression.
> 
> You seem to be making many assumptions on this dog and the handler based on what? The threads you are reading? Have you personally witnessed this dog with the handler?
> 
> ...


Midnite was the same way when I brought him home. He decided both my son and I were his personal toys. Midnite was brought to the shelter for nipping at kids, he never did that in my home, but he did to us. It took one week to get him to stop. Yes he bruised me and no he didn't know better. Once he was taught a completely different dog emerged. This dog is under a year old, still very puppy like in action. If he is not taught soon things will get really bad. 

Things get misinterpreted all the time on here, so no I'm not going to be quick to say aggression when everyone that has physically seen him says no. I'm sure someone would have noticed this with as many people that have seen the dog.

The Gsd club I'm referring to had been training GSDs for many years and a few of the trainers are involved in IPO. There are all lines of GSDs there. And yes many are aggressive and even need muzzles. They will be the first to tell you what you are doing wrong and what needs to be done to keep everyone safe.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree that the local GSD club may not be the best spot to get this evaluated. A choke collar a couple inches bigger isn't going to be the key to solving this.
> Get with someone that knows the breed and has dealt with more than the normal pet or competitive obedience type training.
> Call Jonathan, Momma of Leo.


The choke collar is for safety in case the prong gets loose, nothing more and definitely not to solve this issue. Believe me when I say I've seen GSDs with every temperament possible at this club. Now the other club I went to I did not care for at all. It took me forever to go to the second one because of the first one.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well OP - you have had some very good advice on there with excellent trainers referenced. You'll do what you'll do. Not all trainers are created equal. But let me reiterate...this is NOT normal behavior and it WAS an aggressive act by your dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is this where you've been training? GSDTC Training Information


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Do you think the breed has changed or humans have changed....regarding all these misbehaving GSDs?

SuperG


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

the BYB's and how many dogs are placed where they shouldn't be(NOT saying this is the case here!!!)
But I see all the time people breeding random unpapered or even "AKC!", selling to whoever 'first come first served' and it is failing this breed big-time. The way they are raising the newborns, what they are feeding and how they are managing the babies play into it all as well. Clueless breeders selling to clueless owners every single day.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> the BYB's and how many dogs are placed where they shouldn't be(NOT saying this is the case here!!!)
> But I see all the time people breeding random unpapered or even "AKC!", selling to whoever 'first come first served' and it is failing this breed big-time.


Its not just this breed...you can get a pitbull for $50 in any big city...I don't know what some people are thinking! 

Someone rolled their eyes once I told them what I paid for Remi and the cost of picking him up...the response was "my friend got a great GSD for $600 from PA". Of course, they never tell you how much they spent on the hip surgery, the GI issues, the bad temp, etc. 

Some people will never understand, I stopped trying.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> Do you think the breed has changed or humans have changed....regarding all these misbehaving GSDs?
> 
> SuperG


Both.

Humans are treating dogs like humans. It's a dog. They don't think like us. Don't disrespect them for the species they are.

Bad breeding. People mistaking bad nerves for appropriate aggression. Prey monkeys in high demand.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Both.
> 
> Humans are treating dogs like humans. It's a dog. They don't think like us. Don't disrespect them for the species they are.
> 
> Bad breeding. People mistaking bad nerves for appropriate aggression. Prey monkeys in high demand.



So which change is more responsible for the increase in the misbehaving?

I know I have my opinions but I am curious in other's thoughts.

SuperG


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

eddie1976E said:


> *Its not just this breed..*.you can get a pitbull for $50 in any big city...I don't know what some people are thinking!
> 
> Someone rolled their eyes once I told them what I paid for Remi and the cost of picking him up...the response was "my friend got a great GSD for $600 from PA". Of course, they never tell you how much they spent on the hip surgery, the GI issues, the bad temp, etc.
> 
> Some people will never understand, I stopped trying.


I know, it is very frustrating.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> the BYB's and how many dogs are placed where they shouldn't be(NOT saying this is the case here!!!)
> But I see all the time people breeding random unpapered or even "AKC!", selling to whoever 'first come first served' and it is failing this breed big-time. The way they are raising the newborns, what they are feeding and how they are managing the babies play into it all as well. Clueless breeders selling to clueless owners every single day.



 good one Onyx... Laughed myself right off the chair. Blame it on the byb... Yo Ho  Go Girl...:wild:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lack of doing homework then? Ignorance is not an excuse, IMO. Either from a breeding standpoint, or a buyers.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

SuperG said:


> So which change is more responsible for the increase in the misbehaving?
> 
> I know I have my opinions but I am curious in other's thoughts.
> 
> SuperG



The consumer. The person buying. 

OP, before I go further, this is in no way about you and your issue. 

People wanting what they want. With zero regard as to whether what they want is appropriate for them. People seeking out people, and paying them money, for dogs that don't conform to standards, because they want what they want. Consumers who refuse to admire from a distance a breed of dog, they MUST own one. 

I refuse to blame the marketplace for the consumers willful ignorance. As long as someone wants to buy something, someone will always be willing to sell. We stop cruddy breeders by stopping their income, cruddy consumers. And if someone has a fix for stupid, let me know.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

It's not always easy to separate good from bad breeders. You can't lay it all on the consumer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> So which change is more responsible for the increase in the misbehaving?
> 
> I know I have my opinions but I am curious in other's thoughts.
> 
> SuperG


hmmm...which came first? The chicken or the egg?

I think it's a combination. I think bad breeding came first and the new mentality of 'my dog is my baby' compounds it. In my opinion, it's to deeply integrated to really answer in a simple fashion. I'm a 'many shades of grey' kind of person.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you do diligent research, you can easily see the separation. Most people are bought into a breeder by a website, or the cost factor. I have a friend who wanted a Golden Retriever. He found this fancy smancy website with English lines(cremes) where the dogs could be trained before purchase. The cost was like $14K! He has money so was not even concerned with the price. Again, ignorance....even at a high price is just that.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Saphire said:


> It's not always easy to separate good from bad breeders. You can't lay it all on the consumer.



It's not that hard. Lots of people do it. All the time. It all lends to taking the time to educate yourself. Sorry. But an educated buyer is a good buyer. It's researching the breed, realizing if you are the right fit, and admitting when you are not, and then getting out there. Meeting dogs, going to shows and competitions, and making an educated choice. 

We like to think it complicated, but it's not.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Saphire said:


> It's not always easy to separate good from bad breeders. You can't lay it all on the consumer.


Agreed...but which entity is more responsible for the increase in misbehavin' doggies. Maybe it's the classic question...nature vs nurture...

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> hmmm...which came first? The chicken or the egg?
> 
> I think it's a combination. I think bad breeding came first and the new mentality of 'my dog is my baby' compounds it. In my opinion, it's to deeply integrated to really answer in a simple fashion. I'm a 'many shades of grey' kind of person.


You're good !!! Leaves you plenty of wiggle room with your reply...which I appreciate.

So, let me put it to you this way...if you could change one of the two variables I have mentioned..which one would you change in order to have less misbehaving GSDs ?

SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> You're good !!! Leaves you plenty of wiggle room with your reply...which I appreciate.
> 
> So, let me put it to you this way...if you could change one of the two variables I have mentioned..which one would you change in order to have less misbehaving GSDs ?
> 
> SuperG


Why the people of course. Humans are responsible for breeding and for training. If it weren't for humans, the world would be a peaceful place with perfect animals. 

Humans ARE my favorite mammal after all.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Nice answer !!! It would have been regardless...but mine agrees with yours...and you said it better than I could have.

SuperG


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Athena'sMom said:


> Please DO NOT BUY a prong from a major box store!!! They are way to large and will not correct properly and could cause serious injury!! Order a Herm Sprenger and seek a trainer to learn to correct safely and effectively!!! Prongs are not cruel if they are the correct size and fit but the one sold at Box Stores are way over sized and fit poorly!



What are you talking about? They are all the same...you remove links to make them smaller. You can also get a variety of different sized links.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> If you do diligent research, you can easily see the separation. Most people are bought into a breeder by a website, or the cost factor. I have a friend who wanted a Golden Retriever. He found this fancy smancy website with English lines(cremes) where the dogs could be trained before purchase. The cost was like $14K! He has money so was not even concerned with the price. Again, ignorance....even at a high price is just that.


I can tell you from my personal experience this is not always the case. In my case it was not the website or the money.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

gsdsar said:


> It's not that hard. Lots of people do it. All the time. It all lends to taking the time to educate yourself. Sorry. But an educated buyer is a good buyer. It's researching the breed, realizing if you are the right fit, and admitting when you are not, and then getting out there. Meeting dogs, going to shows and competitions, and making an educated choice.
> 
> We like to think it complicated, but it's not.


Sorry but I did all that and ended up with a messed up dog. I'm not going to argue the point. I was new to the GSD but not to dogs and the world of conformation and shows. Without GSD experience it's not as easy as many of you like to think.

Perhaps my more experienced idea of a good GSD breeder is very different from others. People come here regularly with problem dogs from kennels recommended by people here as top notch.

I can now look back and see where I went wrong but at the time I had done much research and felt confident in my choice. I was so shaken by his loss and my lacking the insight needed to determine good from bad...I was sure I would never get another GSD. Showline and working line dogs that couldn't be more far apart, then mix in lines from every country imaginable that all carry different traits. To breed a good GSD is a **** science.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Hi all,

I can honestly say that my emotions with Leo get the better of me and it is *very* difficult for me to not think of him as a little furry, 4 legged person and also not to take each nip personally. All of your input is appreciated as well as your insights. It is on me to continue to mold a bond with him while at the same time, dehumanize and remember he is an animal. My lack of firm ,assertive leadership over Leo has lended itself to his current atttitude. 

In reading through comments, please rest assured that all avenues of professional training will be taken, both with our current trainers as well as reaching out and communicating to some of the locally recommended gsd-based trainers as well. 

Also in reviewing his "biting moments", especially yesterday's bite, my emotions totally froze me up and, upon reflection, there *was* a constant need for attention that he saught. There was no alligator shake or growl or initial bark; rather, he jumped, tailed wagging (understood, not a good thing sometimes with the tail wagging) and bit. I froze. He seized the moment and I didn't stop him. Thst is on me. 

Today, we went to Drs Foster & Smith and had him fitted for both a prong collar (which will not be used until we are properly trained) and a soft muzzle. He was, coincidentally, a gentleman in the store and toward the person helping us. 

Again, thank you all for input (of course taken with a grain of salt). We have been given a lot of great avenues and tools to use to get Leo on track with fair, firm discipline and firm boundaries.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

martemchik said:


> What are you talking about? They are all the same...you remove links to make them smaller. You can also get a variety of different sized links.



Huh ? "all the same" ???

The herm-sprenger prong collars come in different sizes...I was advised to get a smaller mm prong collar and just buy the additional links to accommodate the proper fit. I've seen some prong collars that might have a total of 8-10 links and be the same length as a herm-sprenger which has 14-16 links. The ones at most major pet stores are junk compared to others which are available elsewhere.

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

MamaofLEO,

It might be of consolation to you ( considering your " it is *very* difficult for me to not think of him as a little furry, 4 legged person " ) that you will discover your "assertive leadership" will create an environment for your dog to thrive and flourish....everybody wins.

SuperG


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

SuperG said:


> MamaofLEO,
> 
> It might be of consolation to you ( considering your " it is *very* difficult for me to not think of him as a little furry, 4 legged person " ) that you will discover your "assertive leadership" will create an environment for your dog to thrive and flourish....everybody wins.
> 
> SuperG


I am hoping, SuperG!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Soft muzzle? 
If it is the kind that wraps his muzzle shut, that is only meant to be worn a few minutes.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

A basket muzzle may work better for walks, so he can pant.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Basket muzzle hands down. My bitch was muzzled with company for awhile ( bad door manners) and the basket muzzle was amazing she barely noticed it. Could still give treats, let her drink, pant, give stress signals the whole bit. Made training so much more enjoyable for eveyone.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

SuperG said:


> Huh ? "all the same" ???
> 
> The herm-sprenger prong collars come in different sizes...I was advised to get a smaller mm prong collar and just buy the additional links to accommodate the proper fit. I've seen some prong collars that might have a total of 8-10 links and be the same length as a herm-sprenger which has 14-16 links. The ones at most major pet stores are junk compared to others which are available elsewhere.
> 
> SuperG



You're one of those that likes brand names...it's fine.

The store prongs work the same way. The stores by me have like 4 or 5 different sizes and so I have all the same choices you speak of. It's all personal preference and no need to get a $40 collar from Germany to do the same thing a $15 collar at your local store can do.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

martemchik said:


> You're one of those that likes brand names...it's fine.
> 
> The store prongs work the same way. The stores by me have like 4 or 5 different sizes and so I have all the same choices you speak of. It's all personal preference and no need to get a $40 collar from Germany to do the same thing a $15 collar at your local store can do.


Hmmmm.... High quality stainless steel, nicely rounded prongs, sturdy and well made... And not made in China.

I'll pay a little more to the Germans, thank you.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Hmmmm.... High quality stainless steel, nicely rounded prongs, sturdy and well made... And not made in China.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll pay a little more to the Germans, thank you.



I had a client's herm sprenger pop off in class the other night.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

:toasting:


Sunflowers said:


> Hmmmm.... High quality stainless steel, nicely rounded prongs, sturdy and well made... And not made in China.
> 
> I'll pay a little more to the Germans, thank you.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> I had a client's herm sprenger pop off in class the other night.


Ok.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I had a client's herm sprenger pop off in class the other night.


It happens. Midnite got his off, that is why a choke collar on the dead ring is used as a safety back up. The store bought one I originally got was definitely different then the smaller linked one I ended up with. The store bought one ended up in the trash.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I used Petsmart bought prongs for 20 years. Just bought my first Herm Sprenger. It's good. It's cool. But the dogs all got trained. No one ended up with any issues on the cheap ones. I do like the rounded tips though. 

And to be honest, half the time I can't find half my equipment, so I piecemeal stuff together. A prong from here, a prong from there, voila!!! Whole prong collar!!! LOL.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Huh ? "all the same" ???
> 
> The herm-sprenger prong collars come in different sizes...I was advised to get a smaller mm prong collar and just buy the additional links to accommodate the proper fit. I've seen some prong collars that might have a total of 8-10 links and be the same length as a herm-sprenger which has 14-16 links. The ones at most major pet stores are junk compared to others which are available elsewhere.
> 
> SuperG


our trainer also told us to get the smaller size. he said the dogs fell it better or something so we got our new dog a small herm sprenger while our older one still used a fat petco one. turns out the older more trained dog needs corrections more often so we had them trade collars.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I used Petsmart bought prongs for 20 years. Just bought my first Herm Sprenger. It's good. It's cool. But the dogs all got trained. No one ended up with any issues on the cheap ones. I do like the rounded tips though.
> 
> And to be honest, half the time I can't find half my equipment, so I piecemeal stuff together. A prong from here, a prong from there, voila!!! Whole prong collar!!! LOL.


Haha! My wife had a habit of taking off Rangers prong collar (blue) and not putting it up. Next training day she'd be looking for it. We use the secret power prongs with the nylon cover and on more than one occasion big bad Ranger had to go to class with Zoey's pink and hot pink skull one.


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

martemchik said:


> You're one of those that likes brand names...it's fine.
> 
> The store prongs work the same way. The stores by me have like 4 or 5 different sizes and so I have all the same choices you speak of. It's all personal preference and no need to get a $40 collar from Germany to do the same thing a $15 collar at your local store can do.


Most store ones absolutely DO NOT work the same way. They have cheap, flat, often sharp ends, open rings where Sprengers have solid plates, and they don't have the same resiliency of the metal. Work enough dogs on both. You'll change that mindset in a hurry. Zero comparison. 

And there is no excuse when you can buy a chrome HS for about $12-$15 online.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

I'll cast my vote in favor of the HS as being the superior product as well. They can be purchased at amazon inexpensively.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Most store ones absolutely DO NOT work the same way. They have cheap, flat, often sharp ends, open rings where Sprengers have solid plates, and they don't have the same resiliency of the metal. Work enough dogs on both. You'll change that mindset in a hurry. Zero comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> And there is no excuse when you can buy a chrome HS for about $12-$15 online.



I guess without one there is just no way to get a BH or any other high title on your dog. Must all be in the prong collar brand name...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

martemchik said:


> I guess without one there is just no way to get a BH or any other high title on your dog. Must all be in the prong collar brand name...


Because earning titles is all about the collar? Hey, how many use a HS fursaver? lol


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Because earning titles is all about the collar? Hey, how many use a HS fursaver? lol



Of course it is! You put it on when you go on the trial field and bam! Got your title! Store bought prong collar...judge just dismisses you from the field


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I cannot recommend enough giving this a try:
Consultations with some of the best behaviorists in the world- 
PETFAX Behavioral Consultation : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine - you and Tuft's
About Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine - basic about
VETFAX Behavioral Consulation : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine - you, your vet and Tuft's


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Most store ones absolutely DO NOT work the same way. They have cheap, flat, often sharp ends, open rings where Sprengers have solid plates, and they don't have the same resiliency of the metal. Work enough dogs on both. You'll change that mindset in a hurry. Zero comparison.
> 
> And there is no excuse when you can buy a chrome HS for about $12-$15 online.


Seriously? I have never ever seen one with "sharp" ends. And do you know how many dogs I have worked? Worked in what? I can see from your website that your dogs aren't titled, so I could ask you the same question.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Zeus was like that up to 6 months, just worst biter ever, i have pictures all over the forum of my bleeding arms. Now (two) next week, completely different dog. If you tried everything, it's time for a trainer.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm looking at 3 different sizes of non-Sprenger prongs right now. 15-20 years old, still solid. Rounded ends, but slightly, really slightly, not the same size as my Sprenger's. The only problem I've ever had with a Petco brand is the ring that holds the chain together coming apart where its soldered. 

With all that Mama, its not really about which collar. Its still going to come down to what you do, making what's acceptable completely clear to him. Don't make excuses for him. You need a very black and white, consistent plan.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

MamaofLEO said:


> Hi all--so I was walking Leo (7 months old, mouthy GSD) outdoors and leaving kibble in snow for search and find activity on the way back---honest to G-d, there was no trigger, Leo jumped vertically and repeatedly bite (teeth bared) through my coat all over my arm and hand (my hand is still healing from August burn, which is the dominant hand that he goes for when mouthing). I shortened leash and put foot on leash; however, *he continued for about 10-15 minutes--I could not control him or stop him. I did not hit him to stop *not did I attempt to dominate like Casar Millan (head to the ground until submission)...*I basically took it because I could not get a hold of any* *part of him to stop him*...huge bone bruise on my forearm and hand scraped and bruised. We are having him evaluated at our vet after New Year as we are out of town with him. He is now on a month-to-month evaluative probation with us to even keep him in the home. We have continued to work with him but he continues to bite.


I am still urging you to seek the advice of a professional. And REMAIN with the professional until you develop the ability to handle your dog. 

I find it very hard to EVER imagine a person standing there and allowing their dog (or any dog) to aggressively "attack" them and make no attempt to stop the attack. If you dog was truly "attacking" for 10 or 15 minutes, you would look like you've been through a meat grinder. I just can't get my head around any person just standing there while a dog aggressively attacked them and make no attempt to defend themselves. 

Of course your past trainer didn't witness your dog "attacking" you. Your trainer never allowed it to get to that level. Dogs don't say "Oh wait, there's a witness.....I must control myself and appear to be a normal dog." 

There was a trigger. You missed it. I suspect by your own admission, you were laying treats, your dog was searching for them and found it much more* fun* to go straight to the source. You. That behavior is not acceptable, but certainly not aggressive. How would I know that? Because I have a dog that if I left him to his own devices, would do the exact same thing. 

Just out of curiosity, before this walk, how long has it been since your dog has had a chance to REALLY exercise since it was neutered? 

This isn't the dog you dreamed of. Get and STAY with a trainer. Or find an experienced GSD home before this dog has to be euthanized.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I guess without one there is just no way to get a BH or any other high title on your dog. Must all be in the prong collar brand name...


Exactly...the first day I put the HS on my girl..she not only was completely obedient and performed behaviors which I have never seen before...but she washed and waxed my car.

SuperG


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

GatorDog said:


> Seriously? I have never ever seen one with "sharp" ends. And do you know how many dogs I have worked? Worked in what?* I can see from your website that your dogs aren't titled,* so I could ask you the same question.


Well, there are always reasons why a_ breeder_ won't or can't title dogs, many, many.... could it be that cheap store collar is one of them?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> Exactly...the first day I put the HS on my girl..she not only was completely obedient and performed behaviors which I have never seen before...but she washed and waxed my car.
> 
> SuperG


I'd be happy if Seger would do the dishes. Most I've seen him do is flip the dish and lick the bottom. I'm going to try an e-collar.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

The difference I have noted between my economy brand Titan prong...rather large versus the HS smaller link prong is the smoothness of motion when the pressure is applied as well as released. The HS may be constructed of higher quality materials but I think the chain portion is where the difference lies. The cheaper one seems to not release as quickly or as smoothly as well as tighten as smoothly....most likely the difference in the chain links again.

As far as a prong collar detaching..any brand is susceptible, especially when both prong tips are not properly inserted into the connecting link..it's not that uncommon. I try to always inspect the collar visually before I put it on the dog to make sure all the other links are properly connected since I rarely connect and disconnect on the exact same link every use.

SuperG


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i only use prongs with quick release. out of my HS and cheap petco i have only experienced one quick release faliure. it was the cheap petco one but in it's defense it was at the beach and the quick release mechanism became caked with sand before failing.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I'd be happy if Seger would do the dishes. Most I've seen him do is flip the dish and lick the bottom. I'm going to try an e-collar.


Licking the bottom. There's a theme here. He'll wash those dishes alright. Lol.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Hey everyone - this is a post in the puppy behavior forum, by an OP who is experiencing 
some true difficulties with her dog. Stay on topic and there is a whole equipment forum 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/equipment-how-use-where-find/
to take this discussion to. Just click on new thread **, and you can post away. 

Thank you -

Jean
admin
*


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Sounds like the OP MamaofLeo has made her decision to go forward with a plan of action to correct this problem....which is wonderful. The OP furthered the thread with comments and questions regarding a prong collar and the proper use of one...which led the topic to the " nuts and bolts" of the original concerns of the OP...heck even another moderator contributed their experiences regarding prong collar construction and opinions. Seems like the thread took a natural progression to where it currently is...granted there were some wisecracks and other typical comments along the way which might not be germane to the original topic...but that is somewhat par for the course.

Anyway, I believe all the thoughts supplied by the members of this forum to the OP gave the OP a better feeling about solving the situation at hand...and I hope MamaofLEO, on occasion will share the process as it moves forward...personally, I would be interested.

SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'm confused. 

If the dog was viciously attacking you for 15-20 mintues, then wasn't there blood? Did you need stitches? 7 and 9 month old pups can do quite a bit of damage if they are truly being vicious. So I am wondering if we are reading this dog correctly. Are we dealing with a vicious dog, or are we dealing with a mouthy, drivey, pushy pup with no manners?

If we are dealing with a vicious dog, then you have a serious problem, and I wouldn't put any type of training collar or get physical with him until after having him evaluated physically and by a behaviorist and following their recommendations. You would still have to make some hard choices:
1. Returning the dog to whomever you bought him from with full disclosure.
2. Committing to a regime of management, leadership, structure, training, and constant vigilance.
3. Euthanasia. 

If we are talking about an over-the-top mouthy, pushy, drivey pup with no manners, then you have a problem. The good news is that this type of dog can be worked with and improved. But you do need to stick with a trainer and just plan to have this dog in training with a trainer for a good year, even if the problems reduce in a number of weeks. The dog is smart and strong and active and needs mental and physical exercise and training over time will satisfy that as well as improving the bond between you and the dog, and helping you to become the leader you need to be with this dog.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm thinking it felt like 20 minutes. 20 minutes is an awfully, awfully long time for a dog to be continuously doing this.

And I do wonder if it was rude dog gatoring instead of "attack." The only one who could tell for sure it would be an experienced German Shepherd trainer.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

MamaofLEO said:


> He is now on a month-to-month evaluative probation with us to even keep him in the home. We have continued to work with him but he continues to bite.


I don't understand what this ^^ means? Who put you on evaluative probation?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I don't understand what this ^^ means? Who put you on evaluative probation?


They as the owners have put the dog on probation and will evaluate his progress or non progress to see if he will continue to stay in the home.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

It is quite possible I missed his cues; it is pretty likely that I did as we were including seek and find during our leashed walk (6ft leash doesn't give him much leeway). No blood but horrendous bruising and swelling as I had a down coat on. 

I understand my wording is subjective (horrendous, vicious, etc) but that is, at the time, how it felt. 

We have an appt. with vet for 1/9/14 for all relevant blood work. 

We have taken video of ouf latest walk and will upload today or tomorrow of both my sister and myself walking Leo with less vicious but still hard biting. 

Thqnk you all, again for feedback.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Does he seem to shy away right before he bites you, or look to be bothered by something you would find as unrelated to what you're doing?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

First of all, kudos to you for recognizing that you may very well be the problem and for taking steps to get professional help. It sounds like Leo is a bit too much of a gsd for you and that you need to set clear boundaries for Leo and yourself as well as find an appropriate outlet for his energy. I agree with others that tools like prong collars only work if you know how to use them. Otherwise they just cause the dog pain and can further escalate the situation. 

There was another member here who had similar problems and I know that she and her dog are doing great together now. She had to start over with her dog's training and also with her relationship to her dog. 

I also once evaluated a year old gsd x husky who had never been taught bite inhibition or any manners at all. THe family had to rehome him because their baby was allergic. He thought playing meant grabbing a person's arms, legs, clothes, etc. and biting and pulling. I wasn't expecting that from a dog that age and it was very disconcerting so I can understand why you feel scared. In addition to being given no limits or appropriate training, that dog was not getting enough mental and physical exercise. He was placed with an experienced person and did fine once he learned how to behave.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Does he seem to shy away right before he bites you, or look to be bothered by something you would find as unrelated to what you're doing?


Good question; I asked my sister who walked with me today and she noted that he definitely pauses/shies away prior to biting. Definitely in his mouthy biting but when he is in red zone, he just goes for it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MamaofLEO said:


> Good question; I asked my sister who walked with me today and she noted that he definitely pauses/shies away prior to biting. Definitely in his mouthy biting but when he is in red zone, he just goes for it.


 Bruises are no fun, but please be care where and to whom you use terminology like "red zone." Do you really think your dog is going to attack and maul you to death? That is a red-zone dog. If you tell a trainer that is what you have, since most people minimize their dog's issues when they talk to trainers, the trainer is probably going to believe you. And it can set your dog up to fail. 

Now here is the thing. Some people would love a dog that has the drive to bite, bite, bite. Some breed dogs for this very trait. They want the dogs to go for the sleeve and not stop until they tell them to. These dogs are NOT red zone dogs. But you have a GSD. Not sure what lines it is. But people do breed these dogs for bite-work. I am not sure what you were looking for when you went to get a dog. It sounds like this isn't it. Maybe what would be best is finding an experienced GSD person to take the dog. Have you contacted the breeder?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MamaofLEO said:


> Good question; I asked my sister who walked with me today and she noted that he definitely pauses/shies away prior to biting. Definitely in his mouthy biting but when he is in red zone, he just goes for it.


This is just something to keep in mind, just something that you may want to talk about with your vet. My first Shepherd had some type of neurological problem, almost like little, barely noticeable seizures. The first thing that was obvious was that he would suddenly just back away from his favorite toy. Then one day as he was heeling I saw a different look in his eyes, and he kinda shied away from me. Long story short, all that progressed to where he would come out of one of those little seizures, fearful and dangerous.

I still would lean towards this just being an escalation of bad behavior from what you've said, but just have this in the back of your mind.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

selzer said:


> Bruises are no fun, but please be care where and to whom you use terminology like "red zone." Do you really think your dog is going to attack and maul you to death? That is a red-zone dog. If you tell a trainer that is what you have, since most people minimize their dog's issues when they talk to trainers, the trainer is probably going to believe you. And it can set your dog up to fail.
> 
> Now here is the thing. Some people would love a dog that has the drive to bite, bite, bite. Some breed dogs for this very trait. They want the dogs to go for the sleeve and not stop until they tell them to. These dogs are NOT red zone dogs. But you have a GSD. Not sure what lines it is. But people do breed these dogs for bite-work. I am not sure what you were looking for when you went to get a dog. It sounds like this isn't it. Maybe what would be best is finding an experienced GSD person to take the dog. Have you contacted the breeder?



Absolutely agree; our trainer used the term "threshold" that I replaced with "red zone". I will use threshold when consulting. 

My sister, whom we recieved Leo from (co-worker's gsd gad litter "accident" at 1 year old, we have word that others in litter are fine all around), also noted he appears to be playing when biting, although consistently goes beyond threshold of self control. <<<<this is where we need to understand *why* and *how to * work through this firmly.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I believe I am one of the members who went through this. You can PM me if you like.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Have you tried redirecting him when he starts with a toy or ball? That worked well for Midnite. Midnite was a big boy and I too had bruises from him. That is the first thing I worked with him on. I knew everything else would come in due time, but I couldn't get there if he thought hd could bite and mouth me. At first he didn't want the toy and kept coming at me, I would get his mouth off me and either put the toy in front of him or toss it, so I could regroup. It only took a week of this and he stopped. It made training much easier all the way around. He had no manners or training when I got him.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Redirecting only worked for Skadi in some situations.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MamaofLEO said:


> Absolutely agree; our trainer used the term "threshold" that I replaced with "red zone". I will use threshold when consulting.
> 
> My sister, whom we recieved Leo from (co-worker's gsd gad litter "accident" at 1 year old, we have word that others in litter are fine all around), also noted he appears to be playing when biting, although consistently goes beyond threshold of self control. <<<<this is where we need to understand *why* and *how to *work through this firmly.


 Cesar likes the term red-zone, and it almost always follows as he is a champion of pit bulls, that what people think when they hear "red zone" is a dog that can't stop until it is beaten into unconsciousness. This is why I dislike Cesar's show and popularity. I think it can be dangerous.

Threshold is a better term to use. Again. I don't know if this would be the threshold though. When a stranger darts up behind a dog and startles it and it snaps and connects -- that might be that the dog has low threshold. If the dog bites when it gets its tail stepped on, it might have a low threshold. When the dog is punished for misbehavior and comes up the lead biting for what he feels is an unfair punishment that might be a dog that has a low threshold for punishment, etc. 

This puppy seems to have high drive, and doesn't seem to understand that its play-biting is painful and unacceptable. If it is grounded in fear, and it may be, it may be using its mouthing to say, "Mom!!!! Get me outta here, please, let's go, please, hurry, hurry!!!" But that might not be the case at all. It may be, "C'mon, where's those treats, gimme gimme gimme, c'mon, play with me! it's fun, I want to play, play play, c'mon!!!"

What was said about those seizures should not be ignored either. I almost suggested rage syndrome. I think it is related to epilepsy. It is where a dog, for no reason whatsoever, goes into a rage, biting -- totally aggressive. It is physiological, either some sort of brain-tumor or seizure disorder. I hope to God this is not what you are seeing. GSDs do have a lot of epilepsy and, well, the prognosis for this kind of situation is very poor. When GSDs come out of regular epileptic seizures, they can be very disoriented and may not recognize people right away, and a carnivore that is totally vulnerable can turn to aggression to protect himself.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

selzer said:


> Bruises are no fun, but please be care where and to whom you use terminology like "red zone." Do you really think your dog is going to attack and maul you to death? That is a red-zone dog. If you tell a trainer that is what you have, since most people minimize their dog's issues when they talk to trainers, the trainer is probably going to believe you. And it can set your dog up to fail.
> 
> Now here is the thing*. Some people would love a dog that has the drive to bite, bite, bite. Some breed dogs for this very trait. They want the dogs to go for the sleeve and not stop until they tell them to. These dogs are NOT red zone dogs. But you have a GSD. Not sure what lines it is. But people do breed these dogs for bite-work*. I am not sure what you were looking for when you went to get a dog. It sounds like this isn't it. Maybe what would be best is finding an experienced GSD person to take the dog. Have you contacted the breeder?


Um, not many want what you describe for bitework. They want a dog with balanced drives and a thinking brain. Controlled aggression. 
MommaofLeo has a mix if I'm not mistaken.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL oh dear


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

He is about 6.5 months old?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Bitework is now Skadi's favorite thing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> Um, not many want what you describe for bitework. They want a dog with balanced drives and a thinking brain. Controlled aggression.
> MommaofLeo has a mix if I'm not mistaken.


 And nobody breeds pitbulls specifically to be aggressive to people. The problem with working-line folks is that they think that everyone who has a dog and wants to do protection sports with them and breed them for this is both intelligent and knowledgeable about how to go about doing it the right way. If you think people are not breeding dogs with over-the-top drives and extreme mouthiness, then I have a bridge you might want to buy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The pup is a mix, not a working line


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> The pup is a mix, not a working line


I NEVER even suggested it was.

We all know that I like GSLs best, but I never suggested this dog was working lines. Believe it or not, some show lines have drive, even over-the-top drives. I have one who in my opinion is a nutter, but she looks just like a schutzhund dog doing a bark and hold, LOL! Do they breed for that up-down up down bark bark bark bark staccato? I keep telling her she's a show line, cut that crap out!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

selzer said:


> I NEVER even suggested it was.


What exactly are you suggesting? Because it kind of sounds like you think you have a clue what it takes for a dog to do bitework and it kind of sounds like you are making a big assumption on what people how are involved in IPO think about dogs when you've never been involved in the sport at all.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Hoo boy....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This is not a thread about IPO or bitework or breeding of working line or what IPO people think dogs should be. In fact, all that is completely irrelevant.

It's a thread about an out of control puppy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
> The pup is a mix, not a working line
> I NEVER even suggested it was.
> 
> We all know that I like GSLs best, but I never suggested this dog was working lines. Believe it or not, some show lines have drive, even over-the-top drives. I have one who in my opinion is a nutter, but she looks just like a schutzhund dog doing a bark and hold, LOL! Do they breed for that up-down up down bark bark bark bark staccato? I keep telling her she's a show line, cut that crap out!


My dog is far from a nutter, and yes he does a great hold and bark and trains in IPO, and yes, he is a working line. With balanced drives and a high threshold. 
Read post #133...about the puppy's breeding. OOPs litter


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Is it a full moon tonight? These threads today are crazy! lol


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> My dog is far from a nutter, and yes he does a great hold and bark and trains in IPO, and yes, he is a working line. With balanced drives and a high threshold.
> Read post #133...about the puppy's breeding. OOPs litter


I think you must be mistaken. You just don't know what you don't know.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> I think you must be mistaken. You just don't know what you don't know.


you are correct. I need to read more in these forums, from the internet experts. :help:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> What exactly are you suggesting? Because it kind of sounds like you think you have a clue what it takes for a dog to do bitework and it kind of sounds like you are making a big assumption on what people how are involved in IPO think about dogs when you've never been involved in the sport at all.


 I thought I suggested you have a Happy New Year. No, I don't do schutzhund, probably never will. Nothing near here. But who cares, really? 

I was saying that there are people out there that would like a dog like this. And, there are. There are people who probably breed dogs for this. I bet there are. There are plenty of people out there trying to make GSD guard dogs that haven't a clue what they are doing. And, no, I never suggested it was working line dog. And, even if the dog is a mutt, either the sire or the dam passed down the potential. If it is indeed a problem. Plenty of people seem to think that puppy-gatoring is perfectly normal. Perfectly normal to be bruised and even bloodied by puppies. Strange. If your dog doesn't bloody you up, they accuse you of having low drive dogs. LOL.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> you are correct. I need to read more in these forums, from the internet experts. :help:


I don't know why you pay for training.:crazy: Just let him loose so he can bite.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There is sue with her vast knowledge of GSD and bitework.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

yeah, I read that she got the dog from her sister's co-worker who had an oops. An oops that just happens to be purebred. I got another bridge to sell you. Whatever. All that suggested to me is that the sister's co-worker is probably not the best source to get help with the puppy from. It does not say what lines or mixture of lines the dog is.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Can ya'll try and move your petty argument to pm before a mod closes the thread? I don't think the OP would post a new thread after that.
its new years and I can't believe *I'm* the one singing kumbyya but jeez just get along. Taking things way too personal. Help the OP.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I believe I read the dog is like 90% GSD and 10% collie. I could be wrong but I think that is what the OP said somewhere....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ShenzisMom said:


> Can ya'll try and move your petty argument to pm before a mod closes the thread? I don't think the OP would post a new thread after that.
> its new years and I can't believe *I'm* the one singing kumbyya but jeez just get along. Taking things way too personal. Help the OP.


I'm not taking anything personally. I think the whole thing is funny. These threads are really odd today. That couch thread is just as crazy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> There is sue with her vast knowledge of GSD and bitework.


 I have pups out there doing it, do you? 

I have a pup out there tracking and engaging with escaped prisoners. Do you?

No, I have no use for bite work. None whatsoever, and I have never suggested that I do any form of protection sports. Not my thing. Nor do I sell my dogs as any form of working or schutzhund prospects. But their owners are doing it with them anyway.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

selzer said:


> I have pups out there doing it, do you?
> 
> I have a pup out there tracking and engaging with escaped prisoners. Do you?
> 
> No, I have no use for bite work. None whatsoever, and I have never suggested that I do any form of protection sports. Not my thing. Nor do I sell my dogs as any form of working or schutzhund prospects. But their owners are doing it with them anyway.


How many bridges do you sell on an annual basis?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> I have pups out there doing it, do you?
> 
> I have a pup out there tracking and engaging with escaped prisoners. Do you?
> 
> No, I have no use for bite work. None whatsoever, and I have never suggested that I do any form of protection sports. Not my thing. Nor do I sell my dogs as any form of working or schutzhund prospects. But their owners are doing it with them anyway.



Just cause the owners say they do it...doesn't mean they do it well. 

I have dogs that do it, I train them. I don't try and pass off someone else's success as my own because I threw some dogs together at some point. Someone else investing thousands of hours into training a dog isn't a reflection of the breeder IMO and doesn't give YOU any credit to talk about bitework and the types of dogs people prefer for that type of work. You basically admitted it yourself, you don't sell working prospects because you have absolutely no idea what kind of dog it takes to do the work.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

I heard the OP has a killer Chihuahua. No blood after 15 - 20 minutes of bite work..Them females get their hackles up on New Years Eve, this place is lookin like Tombstone... Did it occur to you wonderfull ladies I have come to love so much this could be a potential spoof thread. I mean it's cetianlly possible that a dog goes Ape**** eating kibble in the snow, but I recon' I've been snowed before... 

When in doubt, kill the entire community over a SPRENGER, a Spoof and kindness we all lust for....


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> What exactly are you suggesting? Because it kind of sounds like you think you have a clue what it takes for a dog to do bitework and it kind of sounds like you are making a big assumption on what people how are involved in IPO think about dogs when you've never been involved in the sport at all.




:wub::wub::wub:


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## Waffle Iron (Apr 3, 2012)

Oh boy. I can only add my two cents that you urgently need a professional GSD trainer. Please do not delay.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

sehrgutcsg said:


> I heard the OP has a killer Chihuahua. No blood after 15 - 20 minutes of bite work..Them females get their hackles up on New Years Eve, this place is lookin like Tombstone... Did it occur to you wonderfull ladies I have come to love so much this could be a potential spoof thread. I mean it's cetianlly possible that a dog goes Ape**** eating kibble in the snow, but I recon' I've been snowed before...
> 
> When in doubt, kill the entire community over a SPRENGER, a Spoof and kindness we all lust for....



Could be .....but here is part of the chicanery???....here's the OP's Chihuahua...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpvngUUXemQ

SuperG


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

ShenzisMom said:


> Can ya'll try and move your petty argument to pm before a mod closes the thread? I don't think the OP would post a new thread after that.
> its new years and I can't believe *I'm* the one singing kumbyya but jeez just get along. Taking things way too personal. Help the OP.


:thumbup: too much derailing bs.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

My mother called me " red zone" long before the salad dressing guy was using the term....


SuperG


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

ShenzisMom said:


> Can ya'll try and move your petty argument to pm before a mod closes the thread? I don't think the OP would post a new thread after that.
> its new years and I can't believe *I'm* the one singing kumbyya but jeez just get along. Taking things way too personal. Help the OP.


I am going to lock it, but leave it here so people can still see it, and get an idea of how some behaviors look. 

I will PM the OP and let her know we would love to see an update on her dog.


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