# Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?



## JThomas23

Other than their location of origin, what are the differences between the east German DDR and the Czech types of GSD as far as appearance and temperament goes? 

Just curious, this forum is very very helpful when it comes to getting info! Thanks in advance!









- Jerry


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## cliffson1

Appearance....DDR tend to be blockier, especially head, more bone, often very dark sables or blacks, Czechs..little less bone, more West type conformation, medium to big heads, colors tend to be in all ranges of sable along with blacks.
temperaments....DDR, handler sensitive, low prey dive,good defense drive, slower maturing mentally, sometimes nervy that can translate into civil;
Czech, less handler sensitive, good balance between prey and defense drives, usually mature enough at 2 year to do police work or Sch, less nervy and trend towards more concrete nerves.
The above is in general terms, you can have many Czech dogs that look DDR, but 90% of time I see a new dog that is Czech I can rightfully identify it. They have a type to them that is very obvious when you get to know the type...JMO


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## Freddy

Jerry,

Welcome to the forum. You might want to search for a thread called Pohranicni Straze. They were a government run kennel in Czechoslovakia. There's some interesting info in there on maturity rates and body types. 

I have one of each but the Czech dog is only 5 months so I can't quite make an informed opinion but he is smart as a whip, confident, and very social.


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## atravis

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*

This is just my own personal observation, having looked specifically for a DDR line dog-

DDR dogs are similar to Czech dogs in appearance. They are both heavy boned, and have large(er), more masculine heads. From what I could tell, the Czech dogs are a little less blocky than the DDR dogs.

Temperament wise, all the Cezch dogs I saw were very drivey, more so than the DDR dogs. They were also much more serious, where as the DDRs were a bit more laid back.

Both mature slowly. Many DDR lines don't hit full mental maturity until 3 years, Czechs usually around 2.

Mulder is a 75/25 DDR/Czech cross (respectively). He has moderate prey drive, but TONS of ball drive. Low fight or offensive drive, moderate defensive. He's very social, and likes to be with me and other people he knows. He's always friendly when greeting strangers, and has been very good with other dogs thus far. He'd make a terrible Schutzhund or personal protection candidate, but would be awesome in something like flyball or herding.

Again, just my personal experience! While he wouldn't be cut our for sport, he's an AWESOME all-around family dog.


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## Jason L

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*

From the sound of this, how does anyone do protection sports with a DDR dog (low prey drive, nervy)?


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## atravis

Any dog can be nervy, and I don't believe it is an in-bred trait for the entire line of dogs. Some can be, yes, but certainly not all. Not the majority.

You just don't work a DDR like you would a Czech. You have to move slowly, and develop WITH the dog. Move too fast, and they'll fall apart... move at just the right pace, and they can be awesome.


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## onyx'girl

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=593477&page=24#Post593477
thread from awhile ago, good info.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=921456&page=11#Post921456
^^This one^^ is from when I was deciding which lines to go with. I went with W.German/Slovak blend and couldn't be happier!
Though, I love the look of the blocky DDR and the coloring of that black sable Puck V Grafental.


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## umzilla

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinFrom the sound of this, how does anyone do protection sports with a DDR dog (low prey drive, nervy)?


You are asking 2 completely different questions.

_How do you do protection sports with a DDR dog? _
Intelligently train the dog to what it needs.

_How do you do protection sports with a low drive, nervy dog?_
You shouldn't....

Christine


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## cliffson1

Many people automatically think negative when they "hear the term "nervy". This is not necessarily a negative thing at all. There are different degrees of nerves just as there are different types and vocations for German Shepherds. Many police and military dogs do very well with a degree of nerviness. Doesn't mean they are over aggressive or shy by being nervy, just a heightened awareness because with the higher nerve threshhold is a solid temperament. Some dogs that have rock solid nerve are somewhat dull, great for most vocations if their drive is good, not necessarily great for policedog in urban setting.(There are many policedogs dogs that are not nervy so I don't need examples of your local dog that is not considered nervy, so are,some aren't) 
That's why many Czech dogs are police dogs, they have an edge that with training cannot be converted into good suspicion when needed. Again, I am generalizing but enough of this is true to make the statement. So nerviness is a component that can be an absolute attribute in right porportion as long as it doesn't become severe enough to hamper either the training of the dog or the reliability of the dog.


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## GSD07

When you say 'nervy' do you mean actually suspicion towards people/new things or continuous reaction to any perceived changes in the environment that never shuts off? 

From my observing my young DDR dog I can say that he's learning to differentiate in different situations and takes some time before reacting (or deciding not to react) without any cue from me. He is THINKING and I love that, and I praise him for the right decision. Usually he never reacts if he ever was in a similar situation and it didn't turn out to be threatening so I assume he's gaining some experience pool to tap into.


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## atravis

Clifton, I was not trying to assert that nerviness was a bad thing. I was saying that I don't believe it is a defining characteristic in the DDR lines, and I stand by that.


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## Chris Wild

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*

IMO, "nerviness" in the general sense of how the term is typically used is never a good thing. But the sort of "nerviness" that applies here is essentially low trigger thresholds. It's always very important to understand what different people mean when a commonly used term can have different meanings.

And yes, this is quite common in DDR dogs. Though certainly not limited to that subset, nor present in all of them. These low trigger thresholds can be for any stimulus, but in the DDR dogs tend to relate to suspicion, defense, environmental changes and, especially when young, a softness and inability to handle pressure. 

Depending on the degree of low threhold, what stimuli trigger it, how it can be addressed in training and, most importantly, how the dog reacts (recovery time) after the threshold has been reached the dog may be well suited to some forms of work, or may not.

Another common pattern seen in many DDR dogs, and what causes them to "wash out" of a lot of sport/working homes, is that due to their often slowness to mature it can take a long time for the rest of the brain to grow out and catch up with the nerve thresholds. So at 1-2 years old the dog may appear quite "nervy" because he has low thresholds and reacts to things in ways deemed inappropriate because he's not yet mature enough to handle that. At 3-4 years old, you may see a very different dog. He may still react to the same sort of stimulus, but whereas the young, immature dog responded with hesitation or avoidance and was labled "nervy", the older, more mature dog responds with defense and is now labled "sharp" or "defensive". 

Same dog, same trigger, different reaction due to increased mental maturity (and of course environmental and training factors as well). But many people, especially those more familiar with lines who don't exhibit these sort of patterns and where "nervy reactions" typically mean "Nervy dog. Period." do not want to wait years to see if that happens.


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## angelaw

I can see this with Grace. Gator was always a little more outgoing than her. Watching her grow up, taking her out, she's always been more suspicious. Very little prey drive, etc. She's now 2 1/2 and FINALLY starting to grow a little. She's now starting to stand up for herself, showing some gumption, but she is def. getting sharper in the last few months than she used to be.


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## GSD07

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*

What a great post, Chris!! I will save it in my DDR folder for future reference along with the other earlier posts on the subject. I needed to find as much information as possible when I brought Anton home because nobody around here, literally nobody was familiar with DDR lines, and it was a little uncomfortable for me to go against all advice I was generously given at first. 

I probably looked very stubborn and ignorant to people but I knew not from a book what weak nerves were and I saw something different in my new pup - an obvious very fast recovery time and learning ability present. So took my time and decided to be patient. Now I feel more confident because my way of handling Anton is working and he's maturing very nicely. He just seems to be such a textbook example of DDR lines according to what I learn. 

I just write this so you and Cliff and other people who post here realize what a differece their knowledge and willingness to share it makes for some people like me and dogs over the years. 



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> ... but whereas the young, immature dog responded with hesitation or avoidance and was labled "nervy", the older, more mature dog responds with defense and is now labled "sharp" or "defensive".


So no matter what poor DDR dog is labeled anyway


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## Chris Wild

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*



> Originally Posted By: GSD07So no matter what poor DDR dog is labeled anyway


ALL dogs and lines (and people and everything else) get labeled. Such is human nature. 

Beyond that, understanding the general trends regarding temperament that *tend* to run in a large number of the population in any given line is important for people to choose the right dog for them and then know what to expect and how to handle that dog.


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## allieg

Chris,
Your description of the DDR is 100% Athena and yes she is 100% DDR.Couple of question for you if you don't mind and you can PM me if you don't want to hi jack this thread but it may help others if you do.

What should I be doing for training to get her unscared of the world?She has come a long way since March when we started with a trainer/behaviorist but she still needs lots of work.How far should I go to get her comfortable around other dogs/big animals.She acts the same way with say a cow as she does with a dog.DOES NOT like them and is scared to death.She doesn't cower to them but will try to go up against them till the end then will end up on the bottom scared to death.I only know this from a surprise encounter where we were cornered.I tried to get her out but had no place to go except against a wall. 
She is very anxious most days with no reason.Some times I think the neighbors dogs barking a lot stress her but I have no control over that .I just try to catch her and get her attention with treats to calm her and not let her go off the handle over it. 
Had my original vet been better I think I could have gotten more control over her anxiety earlier.She panted out of control and acted stressed from very early on but every time I mentioned it he passed it off as normal.I now know better.. Any advice is appreciated.
From reading your post I can assume if I keep doing training in a year or 2 it should get better..I hope...It seems so unfair to have to leave her home for certain trips....


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## SunCzarina

I haven't had a czech dog but my DDR pup has crazy drive - all day long ball ball ball, squirrel! ball ball ball. He's also developed into a great house dog - he wants to be outside with his ball collection and watching for squirrels but he's wonderfully well behaved in the house if he's had proper exercise.

My blockhead









With his mom. Dude looks like a lady - much prettier in person.


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## angelaw

Really Jen? Gator nor Grace have/had much drive for a toy, but show her a cat, geesh. That too has only been recently.


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## BlackGSD

Would any of those "in the know" say that DDR and/or Czech dogs tend to be less "biddable" (sp) than say the WG working lines?

Siren is 3/4 DDR 1/4 Czech. She defiantely has her "own agenda". (sp) She is NOT the type of dog that "loves to please you". She is all about pleasing HERSELF.

She has CRAZY prey drive. BUT it is more for "live prey"(critters, leaves, bugs ANYTHING that moves.) than inanamate(sp) objects like toys. She likes toys and will play with them, but if ANYTHING else moves she is ALL OVER IT! To the point of ripping your arm from the socket. So far no amount of training and/or correction has curbed this AT ALL. 

She has had a HIGH level of suspicion all her life. She is getting a little less reactive with age. (16 months old now.)

Her world is rulled by her NOSE. I have had scent hounds that followed their noses less! I don't know how much of that is what she was born with, and how much is due to the fact that the litter was imprinted on cadaver scent from the time they were born. (There were people that wanted cadaver dogs from this litter so the whole litter was imprinted and "worked with" on a daily basis.)

She even swims and walks around in the lake sniffing the surface of the water. 

I often wish there were "nose plugs" I could get to STOP the constant sniffing. (Both of the ground and air scenting.)


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## allieg

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> She has CRAZY prey drive. BUT it is more for "live prey"(critters, leaves, bugs ANYTHING that moves.) than inanamate(sp) objects like toys. She likes toys and will play with them, but if ANYTHING else moves she is ALL OVER IT! To the point of ripping your arm from the socket. So far no amount of training and/or correction has curbed this AT ALL.
> 
> She has had a HIGH level of suspicion all her life. She is getting a little less reactive with age. (16 months old now.)


That's Athena too.She has learned to like her toys but early on she was a nothing when it came to playing.She would occasionally tug with Lexi at an early age.She will not play,tug type play with people.She sees something move,cat,leaf,critter and she is gone.No way of getting her mind off it with mild corrections.


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## GSD07

Tracy, I look forward to the answer to your question. Anton is extremely biddable, but only to me, and he couldn't care less about pleasing anybody else (including my husband who he loves dearly). I walk him on a flat collar, he responds to the tone of my voice, my husband needs a prong with him.

Anton is a natural tracker too so I would think Siren's talent comes from genes.


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## atravis

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Anton is extremely biddable, but only to me, and he couldn't care less about pleasing anybody else (including my husband who he loves dearly). I walk him on a flat collar, he responds to the tone of my voice, my husband needs a prong with him.


This is very true of Mulder as well. He wont even LOOK at anyone else if they give a command, or call his name. I'm also the only person that can walk him.. he drags everyone else around like dead weight.

And even for me he's a hard dog to motivate. You can show him an entire side of beef, and its 50/50 if he'll be interested... but bring out the tennis ball? He'd literally sprout wings and fly if that's what I wanted.


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## JThomas23

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*

Thank you so much everyone for replying to my original post on describing their appearance & temperamant. 

So to get this straight, the DDR has more of a blocky head more heavier bones as opposed to the Czech? Now what about height & weight? I'm gonna assume the pure DDR would on average weigh more due to heavier bone structure? Height for both might be around the same?

Thanks again all for the great responses thus far!









- Jerry


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## SunCzarina

Tracy - Otto has his own agenda too. He's very affectionate though. 

Jerry - the height depends on the lines. Otto regularly sees his cousin on the Grafental side. Otto is 14 months and isn't done growing out, but he's 25" tall and goes about 75lbs, probably won't even be 85lbs. His cousin however is 115 and at least 4" taller. This is becuase Otto's dogs on the other side of the family are all shorter.


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## angelaw

Grace is grafental mom and dad side. She's not very big and weighs about 51-52 lbs!! Height wise she's in standard, weight barely but she's in, lol. She only listens to me, prey drive live prey only. sigh. but I love her!


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## SunCzarina

That's interesting, Otto's grandfather on the grafental side is huge - not too tall but LOOOOOONG and had the most enourmous feet. By comparison, Otto's father Xander is a tiny male, I think Otto is taller. 

Otto's insane ball drive comes from his dad. The day I met X, he alert barked that we were in the driveway then after Lori came out to greet us, the dog went for his ball and didn't stop playing with my kids for like an hour. Kept bringing it back with that glazed look in his eyes


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## BlackGSD

Siren (16 month old female) is a hair shy of 26 inches tall. Taller than her dam AND sire. Last time she was weighed, she weighed 66lbs. She also has a "compact" build. She is almost "square". She is only 27 inches long. Though he LOOKS longer. I have had people that have seen pics, then see her in real life say that they are surprised how compact she is as she looks longer in her pics.


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## CainGSD

My DDR boy as a pup had minimal food drive and prey. When we began training in SchH he was 8 months and appeared way more interested in the helper versus rag. At about a year old he became INSANE about his ball. If I want to teach him something, I use food and leave his ball out of the picture. Once he has it we use the ball during the proofing. He has the tendency to fixate and glaze over when presented with his medium sized orbee ball.

He is extremely biddable to me and very social with other people. My TD and helper describe him as handler sensitive in that he can be very easily influenced by verbal input from me. 

He is 25 to 25 1/2 at the wither and 78 lbs.


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## BlackGSD

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*

I have several friends too with DDR or DDR/Czech pups/dogs, most of which are 1/2 siblings to mine. For the most part, they all say their dogs aren't very motivated by food. Some are also not great eaters at meal times.

Siren on the other hand is a canine garbage disposal. She will eat ANYTHING. Has never missed so much as 1 piece of kibble in the house. BUT, if out where there are outside sights or smells, FORGET IT! Food is important ,but possible prey or smells are MUCh more so.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: JThomas23Thank you so much everyone for replying to my original post on describing their appearance & temperamant.
> 
> So to get this straight, the DDR has more of a blocky head more heavier bones as opposed to the Czech? Now what about height & weight? I'm gonna assume the pure DDR would on average weigh more due to heavier bone structure? Height for both might be around the same?
> 
> Thanks again all for the great responses thus far!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Jerry


KC and Rayne have a decent amount of DDR behind them on their Mother's side. KC had the DDR type structure, Rayne had the more working line structure- both comparable in height/length. KC was solid as a rock, Rayne not so solid. KC heave bone, Rayne nice bone but not really heavy bone. Every time they were weighed they were within 2 pounds of each other, usually less than a pound different. I don't put as much credence in the comments about "heavier" bone because in my limited experience, "heavier bone" does not equal heavier weight.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> I don't put as much credence in the comments about "heavier" bone because in my limited experience, "heavier bone" does not equal heavier weight.


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## SunCzarina

In my house too. Morgan is about 5lbs lighter than Otto. He's 2 inches taller than her and built like a dumptruck where she's more of a willow tree.

Slightly off topic but what I find amusing is how Morgan floats when she runs and Otto bobs - Luther, my DDR boy who died a few years ago, he bobbed around the same way.


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## spartshep

Jane~~This is for you









Like father, like son, though I think he will resemble his mother side (Haike) alot!


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaSlightly off topic but what I find amusing is how Morgan floats when she runs and Otto bobs - Luther, my DDR boy who died a few years ago, he bobbed around the same way.


She is a girl! Not a sloppy, clumbsy, yucky, boy!


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## onyx'girl

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*

Thank you Connie!! What a stunner








What is his name?


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## angelaw

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDFor the most part, they all say their dogs aren't very motivated by food. Some are also not great eaters at meal times.
> 
> Siren on the other hand is a canine garbage disposal. She will eat ANYTHING. Has never missed so much as 1 piece of kibble in the house. BUT, if out where there are outside sights or smells, FORGET IT! Food is important ,but possible prey or smells are MUCh more so.



you're lucky!! Vishnu was 1/2 ddr 1/2 showlines, I would have to TELL him to eat didn't matter what the food. Grace, takes forever to eat, doesn't like most treats, not food motivated AT ALL


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## GSD07

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*

Connie, if you didn't tell the pups mother I would have guessed







I can see some obvious family resemblance







Very very stunning father and son.

Anton is not food motivated either but he eats his main meals well. The good thing is that we can leave food laying around, or garbage accessible (during cleaning the house) and he is never into stealing food. He's no taller then 25.5 and weighs around 70lb. He's very skinny, though. Oh, and he has wonderful movement and coordination, I would say superior, he's does float when he walks, and flies when he runs, just amazing. I'm thinking maybe it's because of his compact size?


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## spartshep

Jane~His name is Rommel. 
Oksana~Yes, he does have more of his mother side in him..I was hoping for a better distribution, but it is what it is. He is a little darker than this picture looks, but very pretty, none the less. More important...he has very nice temperament and potential..he is a little love right now









Funny how so many are so different. All my dogs are food driven....they love food, all of them. Some are more prey driven than others, but all like to swim and run in the woods, chase whatever is thrown, especially in the snow. They are truly a joy to own


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## CainGSD

Hi Connie,

There is a gorgeous puppy in our club out of Puck/Bea. He has been a lot of fun to watch and we do the puppy circle together in bite work. This little guy (well not so little now) is super dark like his dad.


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## spartshep

Hi Nora,

It can be no other than Paxx, the *black mamba*! I did not expect him to get as dark as he is...sables are fun to watch









Connie


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## angelaw

Nora, is that Ken's pup? He sent me pics, drool!!!


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## angelaw

nevermind, same pup. Mr. Pax as he calls him. Name Paxx







Very nice guy!


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## Freddy

Nice website, Connie. Nice looking dogs as well. It wil be a while before I am back in the market but I have definitely bookmarked you.


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## CainGSD

The one and only Paxx! He is an awesome pup! He and Dazzle feed off of each other I swear. While one is working with the helper the other will stand and hold their tug. Both are very calm, full grip, intense focus on the what the other pup is doing. It's like they are taking notes for their next turn. LOL


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## onyx'girl

*Re: Difference btw E. German DDR & Czech?*

Rommel was one of the names I had chosen for my pup! I will follow this boys progress for sure! I wish there were more of Puck's progeny around here to watch-gonna have to do a lil road trip and visit the next litter I think...


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## spartshep

Thank you, Fred.

Nora, I am glad you and Ken are enjoying your pups. Ken is in contact and sends pictures, which I really enjoy. I would love to meet him...perhaps have a reunion. These pups are spread out over the country, so that is going to be a challenge. We'll see


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## mjbgsd

I should share my experience I'm having with a 75/25 DDR/Czech dog, well pup, lol. 

Akbar is a joy to own, he's very playful and loves to play with toys, balls especially the jolly balls, is motivated easily by food, but is aloof with most strangers. Since I've had him, I've noticed he's VERY intuned to my feelings which most times I wish he wasn't...


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## debbiebrown

i have a ddr female who as a puppy really didn't have much for drive at all......i would say for the first year and a half........i am laughing now because this dog at 4 1/2 years old is a freaking nut.............she will chase her frisbee all day.....actually she will chase any toy, ball, stick anything that moves.....and the same goes with her prey drive.........

So, i am thinking that its going to depend on the line of ddr dog as far as drive goes........this Reiko line obviously is one that has the drive in every way......

debbie


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## debbiebrown

i also have a young "nervy" male almost 2 years old..........Thank you Chris for posting about that.....i am SO hoping what you explained holds true in his case.......

he is Very imature and though i have done all the social stuff. classes, etc still has this behavior..............we shall see how this plays out when he is of a more mature age......in the meantime i am playing the role of a proactive owner......have learned his triggers and am continuing the counter conditioning, classes etc........ he is mostly west german w a tad of ddr......


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## Josiebear

Josie is half east and west with a drop of DDR and czech in her.

All i can say is i am having a great time with her. She is such an easy dog to have and very good temperament. Although you do have to try to figure out what really triggers her. Very good focus on her and a good amount of chase drive this is where playing fetch comes in handy. She loves her tennis ball. Her drive does go a bit higher when you bring out the flirt pole.

So far she has been very social with people and animals, she's already got called a golden retriever of German Shepherds by the trainers. But she is only 9 1/2 months old so i am sure she will change hopefully not too much . 

She is definitely a hard dog but once you show her you mean it she really gets it.


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## ChristenHolden

All this is so confusing I never knew there were so many Types of GSDs I knew of diff colors but I always that a GSD was GSD. Not DDR, Easten, Westen, Chezh, ect how can you tell from looking if you don't know what your dog is? Would I be able to tell when my dog is grown what type he is?


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## Josiebear

ChristenHolden said:


> All this is so confusing I never knew there were so many Types of GSDs I knew of diff colors but I always that a GSD was GSD. Not DDR, Easten, Westen, Chezh, ect how can you tell from looking if you don't know what your dog is? Would I be able to tell when my dog is grown what type he is?


You look at your pup's pedigree and it's parent's . If your pup is a rescue it may be alittle harder. I am no expert but i know some expert GSDs folks can tell most of the time by looking at it's tail and head shape?.


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## ChristenHolden

He is not tecnaclly a rescue he is a byb pup. I have pictures in my album of his mom and dad. met both parents I see them every week until my pup is old enuff to come home.


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## mjbgsd

You can tell by their body type most of the times.


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