# Ian Dunbar Bite Scale



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What are your thoughts on this scale and interpretation? http://www.dogtalk.com/BiteAssessmentScalesDunbarDTMRoss.pdf

I saw a family with three teenagers whose 3 yr old poodle x maltese had been "aggressive" with the dog sitter. It sounded minor on the phone call. Turned out that besides the dog sitter, everyone in the family, except dad, had been bitten by this dog, resulting in level 4 bites and one level 5. Saw the pictures of the mauling.
The dad defended the dog, saying "it only happened when there was food involved". In the meantime everyone else in the family and the dog sitter are scarred pretty bad. Dad declined to back up his family so I left. He was pretty offended and the family disappointed. I referred them to a veterinary behaviorist, thinking "Oh well.". There is local shelter who brings in dogs from other states by the truck load, not tested on temperament or health. They are a "no-kill" shelter and won't take back aggressive or sick dogs so it becomes someone else's problem.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I think context of the bite is important when passing jusgement, and that is what tbe bite scale fails to take into consideration. My dog has bitten 3 times, but I definitely would not consider him dangerous. 

First bite - level 5. Multiple bites requiring stitches. I was assaulted. My dog intervened. The creep punched my dog in the head a few times. 

Second bite - level 2/3. Bruising and a single puncture. Flushed it and put a bandaide on it. Turns out my guy is over sensitive to prong corrections. My trainer gave him a pop and the dog went up the leash.

Third bite - level 2. My ex and I got into a huge arguememt. One of those absolute raging embarassments. At one point my ex stepped towards me and reached for me (probably to grab what ever object was in my hand I planned on throwing at the wall) and the dog nipped him. Causing the tiniest little bleeding scrape.

He's actually a pretty sweet boy. He gave his acupuncturist a very nice kiss this past week, he's normally a little more aloof than that but hey it was cute. Personally I don't find his bite history a cause for concern - he is just protective of himself and his person. I certainly am happy I didn't take the advice of the bite scale and put him down after his first, and most extreme, incident.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Very interesting, Wolfy Dog, thanks so much for posting this. I like the idea of categorizing different levels/types of bites, so that one has a better handle on what one's dealing with. Sometimes I think that we (humans) aren't discerning enough when it comes to this kind of thing ---- well, short of a fatality, that is. That said, it would be nice if there were more detailed examples, even photos to illustrate what Dunbar is talking about. I'd also like to know how these categories were developed. There seems to be an implication in the description that they were constructed from some kind of study(ies). If so, I'd dearly like to read them. Do you know, by chance?

Okay, did some rough googling and found that Sophia Lin has a poster that appears to be based on this same (or a similar) categorical system and that provides a little more information/illustration: Download the Bite Levels Poster. Still would like to know what this was based on.

About that family...sometimes people's denial of a dangerous situation borders on the delusional. If minor children (or elderly adults) are/were present in the home, personally, I'd have called CPS/APS *and* Animal Control. 

Aly


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think the chart is inadequate as it does not take into account the so many bites that involve removal of hunks of flesh and muscle down to the bone that is so common in so many of today's attacks. Multiple puncture wounds don't even begin to address such bites.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It doesn't cover everything. One of my dogs barked to protect himself when a woman put her hand in his face. His tooth cut her hand. Was that a bite? It wasn't intentional, it was mainly just contact, but it gave him a bite history. There were no tooth marks, just an unfortunate cut. For the rest of his life, he had a bad reputation. He put his teeth on a few people with good reason, but never bit down. They called those bites, too. However, we couldn't be sure he couldn't actually bite and caused damage so we never let it happen again.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Hey @voodoolamb I forgot the guy punched your dog so much. Do you think he could have gotten a TBI that is causing his siezures now?

And...poodle/maltese and mauling in the same sentence....!?

As for Voodoolambs bite history on her (right)? Dog...I think you have to be able to take into consideration the circumstances. How can you penalize a dog at all who heroically defended its owner against a legitimate threat. Obviously the dog can differentiate and have inhibition under some circumstances or he would have sent the ex to the hospital.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Hey @voodoolamb I forgot the guy punched your dog so much. Do you think he could have gotten a TBI that is causing his siezures now?
> 
> And...poodle/maltese and mauling in the same sentence....!?
> 
> As for Voodoolambs bite history on her (right)? Dog...I think you have to be able to take into consideration the circumstances. How can you penalize a dog at all who heroically defended its owner against a legitimate threat. Obviously the dog can differentiate and have inhibition under some circumstances or he would have sent the ex to the hospital.


We didn't do x rays at the time of the incident, just treated his swelling and abrasions, but during the imaging while looking for causes for the seizures the neurologist did see that there had been a prior cranial injury. I cant think of any other time that could have happened. So it could be a contributing factor. 

Yes, "her" works lol

I think it's the shepherd's ability for discernment which makes them so great. I mean you wouldn't want a dog to use the same amount of force on a spring lamb that they use on a ram in rut right?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> It doesn't cover everything. One of my dogs barked to protect himself when a woman put her hand in his face. His tooth cut her hand. Was that a bite? It wasn't intentional, it was mainly just contact, but it gave him a bite history. There were no tooth marks, just an unfortunate cut. For the rest of his life, he had a bad reputation. He put his teeth on a few people with good reason, but never bit down. They called those bites, too. However, we couldn't be sure he couldn't actually bite and caused damage so we never let it happen again.


 A tooth that injures, is a bite to me regardless the circumstances.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> A tooth that injures, is a bite to me regardless the circumstances.


Even without intention?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I've been bit(badly a couple times)more then once breaking up a fight. I do not, nor will I ever consider that as a bite. It's never been intentional on the dogs part, it's been me putting my body parts where they shouldn't be. I have never had one of my own dogs bite me in any other situation.


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## BigHemi45 (May 10, 2016)

I had a level 4 from an Akita when I was 6, lucky he didn't kill me. I was his 4th "victim" and the city made my neighbor put him down after that.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I agree that context is important, as is intent. I was bitten by a GSD as a child, but it was only a level 2 bite. Unfortunately I was the third person that he had bitten and because of that he had to be put down. I cried after finding out and felt guilty for petting the dog, despite receiving permission from the owner. Now that I'm much older though, I do feel that the owner should never have let me pet the dog knowing it had a history of biting. That being said, a history of biting can be very different when considering if it's a defensive bite or an aggressive bite IMO.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shadow hits me with her teeth all the time. According to that scale level 1 or 2. 
I am uncertain how one would go about teaching a dog to close it's mouth while playing since that is the cause. She is klutzy and runs into me.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow hits me with her teeth all the time. According to that scale level 1 or 2.
> I am uncertain how one would go about teaching a dog to close it's mouth while playing since that is the cause. She is klutzy and runs into me.


To me it is not accidentally and merely shows rudeness. Interestingly I have never seen (my group of four from the past) any of the lower ranked dogs run "accidentally" into or "accidentally" bite (contact with teeth) Mr. Top Dog. Because he would have never accepted an excuse like we tend to do.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I've been bit(badly a couple times)more then once breaking up a fight. I do not, nor will I ever consider that as a bite. It's never been intentional on the dogs part, it's been me putting my body parts where they shouldn't be. I have never had one of my own dogs bite me in any other situation.


That happened to a neighbor, who intentionally took a bite meant for her dog to save her dog. She was at fault. Her dog was loose and began snapping at a bigger dog, who bit back to avoid the little dog's teeth. I tried to explain to her the difference between an intentional bite and how she set up that situation by not keeping her dog leashed, knowing the little dog is dog aggresssive. In the case of my dog, I pulled him off the street to let someone pass. That person stoped to talk and waved her hand right in my dog's face. I told her to please back up and keep walking when my dog barked a warning to her. It was all her fault but I still felt responsible for even being on the street at all.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think the chart is inadequate as it does not take into account the so many bites that involve removal of hunks of flesh and muscle down to the bone that is so common in so many of today's attacks. Multiple puncture wounds don't even begin to address such bites.


Exactly. Some severe bites are limited to a dog biting once or twice, hard, and leaving punctures.

What about the dogs that bite down, and start shaking their heads around? Punctures are different from avulsion, degloving, etc.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Irie said:


> What about the dogs that bite down, and start shaking their heads around? Punctures are different from avulsion, degloving, etc.


This is addressed in Level 4 and level 5:

"Level 4. One to four punctures from a single bite with at least one puncture deeper than half the length of the dog’s canine teeth. May also have deep bruising around the wound (dog held on for N seconds and bore down) or *lacerations in both directions (dog held on and shook its head from side to side).*"

"Level 5. Multiple-bite incident with at least two Level 4 bites or multiple-attack incident with at least one Level 4 bite in each."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

angelas said:


> This is addressed in Level 4 and level 5:
> 
> "Level 4. One to four punctures from a single bite with at least one puncture deeper than half the length of the dog’s canine teeth. May also have deep bruising around the wound (dog held on for N seconds and bore down) or *lacerations in both directions (dog held on and shook its head from side to side).*"
> 
> "Level 5. Multiple-bite incident with at least two Level 4 bites or multiple-attack incident with at least one Level 4 bite in each."


Neither of those levels account for complete removal of chunks of flesh in a shark like manner or removal of arms, ears, jaws, legs, etc.

I will never forget the woman who was being mauled who had the where with all to toss the dog hunks of her own flesh that had been ripped off for the dog to eat while she made an escape.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Neither of those levels account for complete removal of chunks of flesh in a shark like manner or removal of arms, ears, jaws, legs, etc.
> 
> I will never forget the woman who was being mauled who had the where with all to toss the dog hunks of her own flesh that had been ripped off for the dog to eat while she made an escape.


That is covered in level 5 bite. Ian Dunbar didn't need to add gory details I guess.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> That is covered in level 5 bite. Ian Dunbar didn't need to add gory details I guess.


A laceration is a deep cut or tear. No, his chart does not cover flesh or limb removal.

Ian Dunbar is a huge fan of the breed type that commits such heinous injuries so of course he won't have a level six for such injuries as it would draw attention to how different some breeds of dogs are from normal breeds of dogs when they bite. He certainly would not want to do anything to single out his breed as he is a leading advocate against public safety when it comes to legislation to protect the public from maulings and fatalities.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A laceration is a deep cut or tear. No, his chart does not cover flesh or limb removal.
> 
> Ian Dunbar is a huge fan of the breed type that commits such heinous injuries so of course he won't have a level six for such injuries as it would draw attention to how different some breeds of dogs are from normal breeds of dogs when they bite. He certainly would not want to do anything to single out his breed as he is a leading advocate against public safety when it comes to legislation to protect the public from maulings and fatalities.


Well, we just don't know why he didn't cover 'limb removal' I guess. Anything at or beyond level 5 is a no-brainer to me, no matter how bad the details).


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