# Ball drive?



## elisabeth_00117

Is it too late to teach ball drive? Is this a learned behaviour? How do you teach it?

Stark is totally tug motivated but he doesn't really have any ball drive, unless it is a new ball that he hasn't seen he could pretty much care less about them.

I am finding it difficult in obedience to get something he will really focus on, food isn't a big motivator anymore either (have tried EVERYTHING). It could be his age but I would like to try to increase his ball drive a bit so I can use the chin and armpit techniques with it.


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## Castlemaid

Some dogs have strong preference for one type of toy over another. If he isn't interested in a ball, but will get all excited for a tug, then use a tug for training. A bit gross when they get all slimey, but you can use the tug the same way you would use a ball: hold it under your armpit or your chin.


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## Jason L

Tug is just as good as a ball. Ivan Balabanov and Michael Ellis both teach play with tug first. Ellis's last DVD is actually called "Power of Playing Tug with Your Dog".

Here's a short clip of Ivan tugging with a young dog.

http://www.youtube.com/user/OtVitosha#p/u/6/Z625ZI1uPXk

Ball on a string is kind of tricky for some dogs anyway. A third of the time they get the ball, a third of the time they get the string, a third of time they get you.


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## onyx'girl

Karlo is food motivated as well as tug/ball. I prefer the tug for now because of the reasons Jason posted above. Karlo is quick and my hands are stiff, so I tend to get in the way of his target now and then! I use two french linen tugs(2 handle) and they work fine for focus and obedience.
I also use food, and then switch to tug to mix things up, keep him interested.


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## GSD07

It is very easy to teach ball fetching when your dog is tug motivated, I've done that (with Yana). You throw a ball, not far, the dog goes to investigate, you show him a tug and when he brings the ball to you you play a few seconds, then repeat. I actually started throwing dumbbells and sticks first, rewarded with the tug, then substituted the dumbbells with a ball. She still was more obsessed with the tug but she developed a huge interest in ball play as well.

I don't think you can teach the ball drive or any other drive, though. You can only bring out what is already in there.


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## Raziel

I think they either LOVE tennis balls, or dont.
Kilo would DIE for a ball.
My gfs shepherd....not so much.


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## JKlatsky

You use a ball the same way you use a tug. You can throw your tug for retrieve games, you can put it under your arm, etc. You can back tie your dog and tease with the new toy to build enthusiasm. Toys all pretty much work the same way. 

If you want to use a ball (I do, personally I find them easier to work with than the majority of tugs) I would suggest looking into a rope ball. Like this one.
Booda Wing-A-Ball - Large - - DogToys.com
They're easier on your hands and give the dog something better to grip than the more traditional rubber balls on rope.


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## elisabeth_00117

He will retrieve the ball and play with them if I am playing with them but he does loose interest quite quickly with it, not a "crazy for the ball" kind of dog.

I thought the ball would be easier to work with but I guess I can keep using the tug since it is working. We have several balls on string and training items like which is why I wanted to increase his interest.

His prey drive is amazing, his food and ball.. not so much. 

I just thought it would be eaiser for me to use a ball, but if others are saying no then I will just stick with what we have.

Thanks guys!


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## GSD07

I've read somewhere a very good advice long time ago. It was suggested to use a variety of toys of different kinds to motivate your dog so your dog is not attached to anything in particular but just to interaction with you no matter what you choose. In that case you'll never be in a situation when, for example, your dog can't perform because his favorite toy was destroyed or forgotten at home. 

It made sense to me and that's why I play with absolutely everything. Anton was oblivious to sticks at first but now he got used to them and it's a great way to do some training when we are hiking (like healing nicely with and without attention), or let him swim and retrieve in the river. I just don't like to carry lots of special stuff around and believe that we motivate our dogs, not the special toys. If I can't find a stick we can work with a little tree branch with leaves, or with my glove (old one ), or my keys, or for letting him jump on me. Anton is absolutely not food motivated and also wouldn't play with toys on his own, his eyes start sparkling only in anticipation of interaction. Just some food for thought!


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## Liesje

I think ball drive is a bit different than retrieving/fetching. It's not the same as simply interacting with a toy. At least when Nikon is doing these activities, his behavior is a bit different. As a puppy, he would chase down and "fetch" balls, but I would not say he had a lot of ball drive. If the ball was not being thrown, he really had little interest in it, and his interest was all "reactive" (meaning *I* had to work hard to keep the ball moving or he just didn't care).

When we started Schutzhund, we basically spent the first 5 months of training developing his ball drive. Now, it doesn't matter if the ball is moving or what I am doing. If the ball is out, he is crazy for it. He will bark and throw behaviors at me trying to win the ball. He's gone from being "reactive" to "proactive".

The main thing we did was just tease him up. No obedience, no outs, no working on tugging or retrieving or anything like that....just teasing him with the ball to get him excited about it. The easiest way is to back tie the dog on a harness or have someone else be a post and hold the line, so that you can control the ball and the dog. 

The ball you use should be special, meaning he only gets to have it when you take it out to work. Also, keep the sessions short and put the ball away while he's still intense, not when he starts to tire out or lose interest.

As to what Oksana is saying, I have found that once the drive is there and the dog *understands* how the toys work, the drive carries over. It doesn't matter if I have a ball or a tug or a dumbell or a washcloth....once I "turn on" the dog he is motivated to work with that object.

One thing I see people do wrong is use way too much obedience. It took me months before I was able to somewhat fluidly use the ball/toy as part of obedience training and use it effectively. The first several months, we separated obedience and drive building. My dog will work for food so I used that until I could use the toy right. It's almost like learning a choreographed dance! But once it fell into place, the dog learned and caught up very quickly. I still use food when introducing a new behavior, because it's not always appropriate to have the dog really hyped up in drive.

I sometimes use a tug but for the most part prefer the ball. We have less targeting issues, no "chewing" on the ball like many dogs do on a tug, the ball is super easy to tuck in my armpit or under my chin, and it's actually easier for me to tug with a ball than with a tug. If you use the ball, like Jason said you will have to do some work initially to make sure the dog targets the ball. Most of them want the string or the knot. At first, just hold the string in your fist about an inch from the ball. If the dog does get the string, take him off the ball (no game). Nikon went after the string at first but with some deliberate work, that lasted all of about five minutes, lol. Now if he misses and gets the string he will instantly adjust down to the ball rather than the other way around.


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## Samba

It is a good idea to get the dog interested in a variety, I think. The toy fixation where they will only work for one thing can be a drag.

I try to make the ball or tug very interesting to the dog. I don't do this by trying to play, and fuss and throw the ball with the dog. On the other hand, I make the toy interesting but being barely inaccessible. I like to use a harness as a collar can be restrictive. I back tie the dog to something solid and then I play with the ball or toy quite enthusiastically while ignoring the dog. This often engenders some interest. If I can get a helper even better.... throw the toy back and forth, make it skip back and forth across the ground to each other close enough to the dog but not right on them. Often the dog gets excited about the movement of the object. Depending on the dog, they may get interested enough to bite and tug with you a bit in that session. Praise them for holding it and pulling it etc. These sessions are very short. Sometimes the dog doesn't even get the toy in the first ones until sufficient interest is shown.

The other more desirable objects are out of the dogs life for this time. 

You want to make it all short, fast and exciting. To belabor getting interest is counterproductive. Prey drive is subject to extinguishing in a session if over done. I don't mean it goes away forever, but for that session you could play it out.

For example, if you had a dog in a pen and threw a bunny in.... very exciting... probably still exciting for the first 10 or bunnies. But by 100 bunnies they are probably hopping around on a bored dogs head!

If I had a dog I wanted interested in a ball or tug, I might tie one on to end of a buggy whip to make a flirt pole. You make that toy zing and dance. A back tied dog often gets quite up in prey drive over the fast moving object. Let them win it and carry it about while you praise. The holding of it helps to make them for possessive and desirous of that toy. Keep the toy a bit alive by keeping tension on your flirt pole while the dog holds. 

Do you have a harness or at least a large flat collar?


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## Jason L

Frustration = Drive Building 

Also, what Oskana and Samba said about variety of toy is true. Dottie's agility instructor is very big on getting the dog to play with all kinds of toys. She always says: "If the dog will only play with one toy, then what she likes is playing that toy. If the dog will play with any toy, then that means the dog likes to play with you."


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## Liesje

Also, getting the dog to play in a variety of environments. Not sure if SchH trainers stress this, but since I do other things even w/ my SchH dog, I want him to be confident and comfortable so he will work and play with his toys anywhere - pet store, mom's house, other training club....you name it. We play all over just like we train all over.


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## Samba

Here is a Golden and his pole with a rag. I tie a ball on a string sometimes, sometimes the tug on the end. You make that thing go fast on the ground and really get the dogs desire going. This will help build Starks prey drive and interest in more types of toys also.






You want to stop earlier than later with the play as you want to leave the dog wanting more!


Also, Liesje makes a great point. Take your show on the road. I used to take the dog and toy to a new place. The first few times he was more interested in the environment. I didn't beg him but rather crated him right back up and left. Kind of a drag for the first few trips, but once he got going he would play anywhere.


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## elisabeth_00117

Liesje said:


> I think ball drive is a bit different than retrieving/fetching. It's not the same as simply interacting with a toy. At least when Nikon is doing these activities, his behavior is a bit different. As a puppy, he would chase down and "fetch" balls, but I would not say he had a lot of ball drive. If the ball was not being thrown, he really had little interest in it, and his interest was all "reactive" (meaning *I* had to work hard to keep the ball moving or he just didn't care).
> 
> When we started Schutzhund, we basically spent the first 5 months of training developing his ball drive. Now, it doesn't matter if the ball is moving or what I am doing. If the ball is out, he is crazy for it. He will bark and throw behaviors at me trying to win the ball. He's gone from being "reactive" to "proactive".
> 
> The main thing we did was just tease him up. No obedience, no outs, no working on tugging or retrieving or anything like that....just teasing him with the ball to get him excited about it. The easiest way is to back tie the dog on a harness or have someone else be a post and hold the line, so that you can control the ball and the dog.
> 
> The ball you use should be special, meaning he only gets to have it when you take it out to work. Also, keep the sessions short and put the ball away while he's still intense, not when he starts to tire out or lose interest.
> 
> As to what Oksana is saying, I have found that once the drive is there and the dog *understands* how the toys work, the drive carries over. It doesn't matter if I have a ball or a tug or a dumbell or a washcloth....once I "turn on" the dog he is motivated to work with that object.
> 
> One thing I see people do wrong is use way too much obedience. It took me months before I was able to somewhat fluidly use the ball/toy as part of obedience training and use it effectively. The first several months, we separated obedience and drive building. My dog will work for food so I used that until I could use the toy right. It's almost like learning a choreographed dance! But once it fell into place, the dog learned and caught up very quickly. I still use food when introducing a new behavior, because it's not always appropriate to have the dog really hyped up in drive.
> 
> I sometimes use a tug but for the most part prefer the ball. We have less targeting issues, no "chewing" on the ball like many dogs do on a tug, the ball is super easy to tuck in my armpit or under my chin, and it's actually easier for me to tug with a ball than with a tug. If you use the ball, like Jason said you will have to do some work initially to make sure the dog targets the ball. Most of them want the string or the knot. At first, just hold the string in your fist about an inch from the ball. If the dog does get the string, take him off the ball (no game). Nikon went after the string at first but with some deliberate work, that lasted all of about five minutes, lol. Now if he misses and gets the string he will instantly adjust down to the ball rather than the other way around.


Thanks Lies, this is exactly the advice I was looking for.

Stark will work for sticks and I actually use pinecones in our obedience classes because he has this obsession for them, but they can be very messy so I would like to use a ball as I am finding the tug a bit harder to work with for me personally.

I try to use a multitude of toys and items (my keys, sticks, pinecones, old leather collar/belt) for rewards and most of the time it works.

I think my mistake is leaving the ball out too long as I usually put it away once he has already lost interest in it... food for thought. 

I am going for a hike shortly so I will see if we can work on this then.

Thanks!


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## Samba

Elizabeth, Hogan is the same way! His food drive has dropped off and his toy drive not so phenomenal either. I see moments of brilliance but only short lived. I think they are going through a stage of growing up. Hormones and maturing take their toll.

I have done some work but right now I am keeping the sessions as short and fast as I can. I really am not belaboring it as bad practice doesn't help things. I think time will help a lot. You can try the drive building for toys etc. Just the other day I was doing a bit of that with Hogan, but still I really get the feeling maturity is going to be a big key here.


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## elisabeth_00117

Samba said:


> It is a good idea to get the dog interested in a variety, I think. The toy fixation where they will only work for one thing can be a drag.
> 
> I try to make the ball or tug very interesting to the dog. I don't do this by trying to play, and fuss and throw the ball with the dog. On the other hand, I make the toy interesting but being barely inaccessible. I like to use a harness as a collar can be restrictive. I back tie the dog to something solid and then I play with the ball or toy quite enthusiastically while ignoring the dog. This often engenders some interest. If I can get a helper even better.... throw the toy back and forth, make it skip back and forth across the ground to each other close enough to the dog but not right on them. Often the dog gets excited about the movement of the object. Depending on the dog, they may get interested enough to bite and tug with you a bit in that session. Praise them for holding it and pulling it etc. These sessions are very short. Sometimes the dog doesn't even get the toy in the first ones until sufficient interest is shown.
> 
> The other more desirable objects are out of the dogs life for this time.
> 
> You want to make it all short, fast and exciting. To belabor getting interest is counterproductive. Prey drive is subject to extinguishing in a session if over done. I don't mean it goes away forever, but for that session you could play it out.
> 
> For example, if you had a dog in a pen and threw a bunny in.... very exciting... probably still exciting for the first 10 or bunnies. But by 100 bunnies they are probably hopping around on a bored dogs head!
> 
> If I had a dog I wanted interested in a ball or tug, I might tie one on to end of a buggy whip to make a flirt pole. You make that toy zing and dance. A back tied dog often gets quite up in prey drive over the fast moving object. Let them win it and carry it about while you praise. The holding of it helps to make them for possessive and desirous of that toy. Keep the toy a bit alive by keeping tension on your flirt pole while the dog holds.
> 
> Do you have a harness or at least a large flat collar?


Thanks, this helps.

I think my mistake like I mentioned is leaving the ball/toy out too long as to where he looses interest.

Yes, I actually have a agitation harness and also have a varitety of collars. I will try this today.


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## elisabeth_00117

Samba said:


> Elizabeth, Hogan is the same way! His food drive has dropped off and his toy drive not so phenomenal either. I see moments of brilliance but only short lived. I think they are going through a stage of growing up. Hormones and maturing take their toll.
> 
> I have done some work but right now I am keeping the sessions as short and fast as I can. I really am not belaboring it as bad practice doesn't help things. I think time will help a lot. You can try the drive building for toys etc. Just the other day I was doing a bit of that with Hogan, but still I really get the feeling maturity is going to be a big key here.


I think stopping before he looses interest and is still 'keyed up' will help also keep the sessions short and really start to focus on drive building.

I too think it is age and maturity because I can see potential there, I just have to get it out. Which I am learning to do.

Jason - our agility instructor is big on toys as well and although we do clicker training with treats she still likes us to use a toy too.


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## elisabeth_00117

Liesje said:


> Also, getting the dog to play in a variety of environments. Not sure if SchH trainers stress this, but since I do other things even w/ my SchH dog, I want him to be confident and comfortable so he will work and play with his toys anywhere - pet store, mom's house, other training club....you name it. We play all over just like we train all over.


I have to admitt I have been slacking on this as he has been giving me a hard time (barking at people and dogs) so I have slowly visiting new places and trying to build his confidence up and not over load him as he was worse when we would go out every day to new places.


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## Jason L

Here is a video I took of Dieter Schmale teaching drive building at a seminar at our club last fall.

Dieter Schmale - Drive Buidling on Vimeo

Backtie, frustration, but he also lets the dog "wins" often enough so the dog feels that the game is fair and the ball is within reach. Sometimes with dogs whose drive is not crazy high (like Obie), too much frustration will lead a dog to just give up and go "Blah, this game sucks. You don't want me to have the ball. Fine, you have the ball, I'll go play with something else".


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## elisabeth_00117

Thanks Jason!

I am headed out.. hopefully with some help to operate a camera... possibly have video when I return.. lol.


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## Packen

Hey Jason and Jane, Gnash sez hi :wild:


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## Jason L

Packen, do you have any video of Gnash drive building? Talk about ball crazy!


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## elisabeth_00117

You guys rock!!! :happyboogie::happyboogie: :groovy: :groovy:

It worked!!!

He was totally focused on the ball!!!

I had a great session with him!!!

Okay, so I didn't get any video as my sister is still in her PJ's and unwilling to come out of the apartment (1st day of our spring break today), but I went anyways.

I back tied him to a tree and teased him with the ball. I would let him win it every once in awhile.

Now, when he did catch the ball I said, "yes".

When he caught the sting, I didn't say anything.

Is that okay?

I used the example that Jason L posted (video of Dieter) and it really seemed to work.

I wish I could of gotten a video of it because I know it's hard to see if I am "doing it right" by my words. It's hard to explain.

But I easily kept his focus on the ball and he was totally excited about it that when I asked for a "fuss/heel" he was jumping on me to get the ball!

I know this doesn't sound like something desirable, but he doesn't get excited like that about a lot of things, so seeing him so ramped up about it was totally exciting to me. I didn't correct him and I didn't praise him, I just turned away from him with the ball and continued on.


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## onyx'girl

Packen said:


> Hey Jason and Jane, Gnash sez hi :wild:


Hey Pfui/Packen and Gnash!!! A video of your boy would be very welcome


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## elisabeth_00117

Yes it would indeed... do I need to resort to begging?

Pretty please with a raw marrow bone on top?


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## Packen

Sure thing, here he is 10 weeks old or so





I should never have done this as now he is the ball monster!


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## elisabeth_00117

Thanks so much!!!


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## Jason L

Haha look at baby Gnash go at the rag! He is a behemoth now. He is such an awesome dog and a tracking machine!!


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## Jason L

elisabeth_00117 said:


> But I easily kept his focus on the ball and he was totally excited about it that when I asked for a "fuss/heel" he was jumping on me to get the ball!


Sounds like Stark did great. Jumping on you to get the ball is awesome. That's what you want. I remember Dieter said (much like Lies did early in this thread) he likes to teach obedience with food until the dog is 10-12 months old and during that time do drive building separately. No obedience, no out, no rule. Just get the dog as ball crazy as possible. Foaming at the mouth, barking mad crazy. Short sessions and after those sessions put away the ball so he only sees the ball during training.


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## elisabeth_00117

Stark was barking for the ball (he NEVER barks for anything, even the tug!), jumping on me (again, he NEVER gets this excited), totally wanted it.. it was great!

I will video tape it tomorrow - help or no help.

I have another question though, we have tennis balls in the house - should I put those up? Only leave his other toys in his toy box?

I have seperate balls for training (balls on string). Just curious, I also use a seperate tug for training (2 actually) and he only sees those things when we are out training.

Should I take away all his balls for awhile?


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## Jason L

Well, I would definitely take up the training ball. Some people take up everything (not just balls but all toys) but I think that might be too extreme. Right now I don't leave anything out with Ike but that's only because I'm afraid dumbdumb will try to eat it when he gets too hungry. But I do leave a few balls out for Obie and Dottie and she is still as ball crazy as ever (Obie couldn't care less for all this drive building nonsense ... ball drive = zero from day one. So with him it REALLY doesn't matter lol)


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## elisabeth_00117

Oh, the training balls are no where to be seen unless we are training.

It's the odd tennis ball and cuz type balls that I was wondering about.


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## elisabeth_00117

Oh, and for my sanity, I am definitely leaving some of his toys down... lol.


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## sagelfn

I don't want to hijack the thread but I have a question.

Sage is pretty nuts for his tennis ball and since we're having focus issues with treats I was thinking about using a tennis ball but i'm at a loss on when to give him the ball. since we would be in class I can't really let him run and go fetch his ball so would I toss it to him let him catch it and then get the ball back and continue or what?


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## elisabeth_00117

Lies had a great video of this... hold on let me find it... 

Here you go - Lies I hope you don't mind.


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## sagelfn

awesome! thanks elisabeth!.. and Lies!


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## elisabeth_00117

No problem..  

I love watching those two work.. they are an awsome team! And so helpful for us newbies! 

Is it weird we are up at 1:40AM thinking about how to increase drive and how to train our dogs? Hahahaha... Or is it weird that I don't think it's weird? Hahaha..


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## sagelfn

elisabeth_00117 said:


> No problem..
> 
> I love watching those two work.. they are an awsome team! And so helpful for us newbies!
> 
> Is it weird we are up at 1:40AM thinking about how to increase drive and how to train our dogs? Hahahaha... Or is it weird that I don't think it's weird? Hahaha..


well its only 12:45am for me  haha but i'm always up late on the boards learning what I can...so no I don't think its weird. Other people would probably think we are weird but oh well  our dogs are better


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## Samba

Oh, it sounds like a fun time for Stark!

Be sure to be energetic and move the ball fast. When he catches it, praise, praise. He needs to know you really like it when he gets that ball. Is your ball on a string? Keep it alive by pressure and a bit of tugging. Not too hard so as to put him off but you want it to be very rewarding for him to hold it. Pull straight out from his mouth rather than pulling upward and cranking his neck up. 

Short and movement filled work is the key right now. At first, you as the handler have to provide the enthusiasm and energy to the game. As the dogs drive builds, you do less and less. 

I don't have too many toys down but rather provide chews to the dogs for occupying their minds while on off time. 

Keep going you two!!


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## elisabeth_00117

Thanks!

Yes, the ball is on a string. I praised like a mad women when he caught and held the ball, when he grabbed the string I didn't say anything... is that okay? I figured I wanted to let him know that I could care less about the string and really wanted him to catch the ball.

I think it went really well. We are going for a hike today and I will have one of my sister's or my friend record our session out in the woods.


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## Liesje

sagelfn said:


> I don't want to hijack the thread but I have a question.
> 
> Sage is pretty nuts for his tennis ball and since we're having focus issues with treats I was thinking about using a tennis ball but i'm at a loss on when to give him the ball. since we would be in class I can't really let him run and go fetch his ball so would I toss it to him let him catch it and then get the ball back and continue or what?


It depends on what you are working on. In the video that Elizabeth posted of me and Nikon, we were working less on drive/intensity and more on position. I was getting drive out of him but he was crowding me a lot which happens when the dog is a bit too far forward and "wraps" in front. So in the video, I have a ball in my armpit, and I am rewarding him from the armpit. I don't care if he's a bit flat, just trying to clean up some things (things that I have caused, not the dog).

I have some arthritis in my left hand so I can only do tugging using my right hand. This developed my habit of holding the ball across my chest, which is fine, but sometimes I was holding it too far in front of my chest, so the dog learned to wrap and push too far forward because that's where I inadvertently trained him to target. 









Now that I have more control of him, and he knows Fuss and all these behaviors even without a toy present, I am cleaning up the position by keeping the toy in my armpit. I drop it straight down (or rather, release him to drive up into the toy), whereas before I was swing the toy out in front causing him to forge b/c he was anticipating the reward out front. Some new people in club ask me the most important thing I've learned and I saw if you are using a toy this way to create a target for focus and heeling, get it in the right spot to begin with!

When he is coming to front (recall or retrieve work), I have the ball under my chin and drop it from there (kinda step back at the same time so the dog doesn't miss and give me a mastectomy!!).

Sometimes when I do recalls I hold the ball down between my legs and throw it back, so the dog learns to charge in fast and runs between my legs. I like to keep things varied so the dog does not anticipate. That means sometimes there's no ball, sometimes under my chin and he does the sit, sometimes between my legs and he just has to come fast and shoot through, sometimes the ball is in my armpit and he does the finish to basic position, etc.


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## elisabeth_00117

Great advice Lies, as always!


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## sagelfn

thanks Lies! very very helpful


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## elisabeth_00117

Okay, so I finally have a video - somewhat... I didn't have any help again today so I did my best to get a video. I didn't realize until I got home that the video is horrid.. so I am sorry.. lol.

I tried to go to the park but there was a school class doing something there and I didn't think it was a good idea.. lol, so we opted for the mall parking lot. There is a huge section off to the side that no one uses and is out of the way so it's great for distraction training.



And I thought I would throw in some of our "stay with distractions" work. Here is a sit/stay, a down/stay, and a stand/stay. We are working on adding in distractions now. I want to start with heeling with distractions, but we aren't quite there yet.


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## elisabeth_00117

** Sound is off.. I think it's my camera or SD card... I dunno.. but you get the point. **


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## Jason L

I hear some nice high pitch frustrated barking from Stark there!! Good boy


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## Josiebear

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Okay, so I finally have a video - somewhat... I didn't have any help again today so I did my best to get a video. I didn't realize until I got home that the video is horrid.. so I am sorry.. lol.
> 
> I tried to go to the park but there was a school class doing something there and I didn't think it was a good idea.. lol, so we opted for the mall parking lot. There is a huge section off to the side that no one uses and is out of the way so it's great for distraction training.
> 
> 
> 
> And I thought I would throw in some of our "stay with distractions" work. Here is a sit/stay, a down/stay, and a stand/stay. We are working on adding in distractions now. I want to start with heeling with distractions, but we aren't quite there yet.



May i ask where you got that toy?. Josie would love that toy!.


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## Liesje

Good work! Soon he will light up as soon as he's in the harness, lol. Nikon *knows* what The Tree means! He's barking and lunging before the harness is even snapped to the back tie, before he even knows what toy/object we're playing with.


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## elisabeth_00117

I got it from my trainer actually.

I have a bunch of different ones, I don't really like that one because it's rubber and snaps back at me.. it hurts.. lol, but I forgot to grab the other one.


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## elisabeth_00117

Thanks guys!

I really got excited today, he did great!

LOTS of barking and lunging, and jumping! 

Totally excited about the ball!

He even went into my bag while I was shopping and stole the ball out of the bag!


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## Samba

Super! I would keep doing the drive building work with the toys before adding them to your obedience work! You will want to get that drive well established first. It important not to get ahead of yourself. Stark really responded to the back tie work! I think you will be able to bring out much more in him. 

Also, next we gotta work on getting more zip into your obedience work with him, I think. That will increase his drive there some while you work on his ball drive on the back tie and drive play. Please don't think it a criticism!! Really trying to assist you guys! :doggieplayball:


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## Jason L

I agree with Samba. I think just do lots and lots drive building at this point, with maybe some focus work on the side. That and of course his agility training which has lots of toy play so that's good for him.

Side question about backtie work: do you have guys ever have dogs where the prey drive is great when the dog is free but as soon as you put a restraint on the dog, the dog shuts down? I ask because you can't do backtie with Dottie AT ALL. As soon as she feels the constraint, she would get this really worry look on her face ("Something is wrong with me, I can't move) and that's all she can think about. I don't do that kind of work with her anymore (1) because she really doesn't need more drive. She got more drive than she and I can handle right now in training LOL and (2) because of her reaction to the restraint. Obie, Mr No Drive, showed more drive backtied than Dots - that's how badly Dottie reacts to the restraint. Gomer, of course, goes bonker when backtied - and this is before you even bring out a toy.


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## Samba

Yes, I have had dogs that really shut down from the back tie. My Catahoula is quite put off with it. I think he could get past it if I worked hard enough on it. He probably would become accustomed to it, but also, I haven't really focused on bringing more drive in him.
Some dogs are more bothered with it.

I think if I back tied him and let him watch another dog work, that might be a quick way to bring him into drive and take his mind off the constraint. 

All this talk of training reminds me how tired I am of snow on the ground and sub freezing temps here!


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## Josiebear

Yes Josie shuts down if i restrain her. If she's loose she's very ball motivated and her prey drive just sky rocket. Once i put the leash on her it's like " ok i'm done" lol. I have tried to have her catch the ball with her being leashed.

samba i am tired of snow too i want summer!!! lol


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## elisabeth_00117

Samba said:


> Super! I would keep doing the drive building work with the toys before adding them to your obedience work! You will want to get that drive well established first. It important not to get ahead of yourself. Stark really responded to the back tie work! I think you will be able to bring out much more in him.
> 
> Also, next we gotta work on getting more zip into your obedience work with him, I think. That will increase his drive there some while you work on his ball drive on the back tie and drive play. Please don't think it a criticism!! Really trying to assist you guys! :doggieplayball:


I totally agree!!!

THANK YOU!!!

I will take all the advice I can. I am without a OB trainer for another MONTH so I need help so I don't fall "too" far behind!


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## Cassidy's Mom

I have a question about the jumping at the toy. How, and when do you deal with that? I understand that at first you want that enthusiasm and drive for the toy, but at some point you need to get some control. Can someone describe in detail how you'd go about that? The videos of using toys as a reward have been very helpful. 

I haven't done nearly enough work with Halo and toys, and I want to do more. She's a shark with treats and know that she'll work well for a toy too. I wish I had a bigger yard or a basement or someplace in the house to work with her though! I have one of those fishing pole toys and Halo loves it, but it's hard to use in small areas and it's kinda big to take on a hike. But I can use a tug or a ball on a string, which I have. She'll tug with the ball or chase it, so we've already got a strong desire for toys.


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## Liesje

They will jump at the toy and at you and for the first few months there will be accidental bites and missed targeting, lol. In August Nikon nearly bit clear through my thumb, the thumb was numb for a long time and I still have the scar. I've caught teeth on my hands, arms, stomach, butt, face....you name it. Last night we were doing obedience and somehow I got bit on the heel of my right foot (I guess he was coming around for the finish THAT fast!). My TDs dog jumps all over him but he loves it, he likes the dog crazy with drive (almost too much for me, I'd rather have a little more clarity even if I lose a bit of drive). At club any time someone complains about their dog jump at them or barking at them he tells us (jokingly) to shut up and that ten other people would be jealous to have a dog that motivated.

If you use a flirt pole to start, at some point you have to get off of that so that the dog really learns to target and the handler learns how to control the toy so it can be worked into obedience. Nikon was so crazy for his flirtpole that I cut it up. It was beyond using prey drive for obedience, it was just pure prey drive that couldn't really be capped, bottled, and used to work obedience in drive, it was just plain out of control.


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## Liesje

PS. Debbie I also PM'd you a video.


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## Jason L

Lies, you don't let Nikon jump all over you for the ball then? When you first bring the ball out, what does he do? What do you do? Do you make him sit or down before you put the ball in play?


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## Liesje

He's never really been one to jump all over me. Even as a puppy he wasn't really physical with us, never mouthed or chewed on us at all. He is really operant/proactive about throwing behaviors, so instead of jumping on me, he will platz, sits, speak, platz, play dead, roll over, etc. trying to figure out what the heck I want. To be honest I haven't really thought about it. I can video if you'd like. We've been using the ball for short sessions indoors. I have very little space but I've been working on faster downs and cleaner finishes.

When I reward from my chin, he does jump up at me and I have to lean away to avoid him getting my face or boobs, lol.


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## elisabeth_00117

See, I want Stark to jump up! Haha..

Stark NEVER jumps, NEVER barks, NEVER gets totally crazy excited (unless it's for tug/flirtpole) so when I saw him get excited over the ball... YIPPIE!!! 

I know he has a lot of potential I just need to learn to 'get it out', you guys are so amazing and helpful!


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## Jason L

Lies, if Nikon sent you to the hospital doing that, you will have a lot of explaining to do to the doctors and nurses LOL. If you make a video, definitely post it! I love to see how everyone work with their dogs.

Elisabeth, at this stage you want Stark to basically maul you when he sees the ball. So you're on the right track! On our club website there is a page of quotes and one of them is from Dieter. It goes "If you are not bleeding, you are not building drive"


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## elisabeth_00117

Haha.. That's hilarious Jason!

I hope to have a better video soon - as soon as I convince my *cough*lazy*cough* sister to come out and shoot it.

I took that video after about 3 sessions and the OB was done after about 30 minutes of play and drive building - I was EXHAUSTED!

I will try to get a better one tomorrow/tonight. I work later so I don't know if I can but I will definitely try!


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## Liesje

That's a long stretch! I last about 10 minutes at a time with Nikon (ball drive and/or OB) and then resort to fetch to wear him down a bit more.

I've been video taping our bitework sessions and he goes about 6 minutes. Last week we went too long actually and I think this week we'll be doing two shorter sessions.


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## Chris Wild

I don't bring the toy into the picture in obedience until the dog already knows the fundamental exercises. Early training is done using food and praise, and once the dog understands the work then I bring out the ball and/or tug to raise the drive level and get a quicker, crisper, more enthusiastic and drivey performance.

Jumping *during* obedience isn't much of a problem them because the dog knows the exercises already. There will be a little bit at first due to excitement, but simply witholding the toy and thus not reinforcing the behavior (may be with a verbal correction too, may be not) typically fixes that pretty quickly once the dog realizes it doesn't bring reward, whereas doing the same obedience it already knows just in a higher state of drive does earn reward. 

If there is jumping (or barking or other leakage of drive) beyond that, then it's my fault. I have either loaded the dog into too high of a drive state for his maturity/temperament/level of training, or the dog doesn't have enough understanding of the exercises after all and I need to go back a step and firm that up before moving forward in a high drive state. Or I'm just not handling right in that particular session... like in heeling. If the dog is jumping in heeling, simply striding out and moving faster so the dog can put that energy and movement forward rather than upward often solves the problem easily.

Now I do sometimes allow excitement jumping and/or barking as we're going out to the field and during play breaks between exercises. Depending on the dog and the goal of the training session I may even be encouraging as a way to reward the dog with a "party" or to geek the dog up and load the dog into drive for the work. That is ok because at that time the dog is in a free state, not under command, and thus I've not told the dog where to put that energy. But once we are on the field and the first command comes, no more barking or jumping is allowed because now all that energy and drive is to channeled into the work.


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## elisabeth_00117

Oh, it was over a long period - not all at once... lol.. like a few hours with play and OB in between.

Our acutal drive building sessions were about 2-4 minutes each time but I was working! Running with the ball, bent down jiggling the ball around, tugging with it a few times.. lol.. tiring!


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## elisabeth_00117

Chris, 

What would you do with a young dog that doesn't show much enthusiasm for food? Praise will get me a bit but if I am working with distractions (this we have started) either high or low they don't do much good.

I was hoping to bring his ball drive out so I can use that in training and hope that he will be more excited over the ball/tug/toy than he is about the food or praise (could care less about either really).


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## Chris Wild

Well, aside from the obvious of using really high value treats that he doesn't get any other time, and making sure he's hungry, you can also associate two drives together and in doing so use the higher one to raise the weaker one. 

In this case, if prey/toy drive is high but food is not so much, use the food as a prey object. Put the food in your hand and tease him with it, use fast energetic lures.. basically interact with him with the food like you would with a toy and keep the same energy in the sessions. I know one person who even put a hotdog on the end of a flirt pole and got the dog to chase that, raising the value of the hotdog by associating prey with it and conditioning the smell of food to trigger a prey drive response. And make sure to keep an energetic, happy, upbeat tempo when using food just as you would with a toy. Too many people are energetic and playful with a toy, then become boring and dull when using food.

Associating the two drives together can help strengthen the lesser one, with the bounds of what the dog is genetically capable, but helping you eek out ever last ounce of the drive he possesses nonetheless.


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## Samba

Is Stark getting meals out of a bowl? 

Hogan's food drive dropped off a bit. He now skips a meal before some training sessions. I also don't give him any food in a bowl. We work for all food right now. I have been doing some teaching of positions, some fast heeling and teaching spin etc. Trying to make those little training sessions fast and snappy. As Chris mentioned, holding the food reward in your hand and moving it away fast so the dog has to chase it to get to your hand makes the food more interesting and elicits prey drive.

His kibble is pretty interesting to him at home. If we go somewhere more distracting and interesting he has to be hungry and I need better food rewards. 

Here is Michael Ellis showing that food chasing thing with a little pup. After Stark does a behavior, mark it and then bring the food out and "make it run from him". Perhaps it will generate interest. Notice how Ellis stays on the move, he is on the hop! This inspires energy in the dog.

Leerburg


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## Cassidy's Mom

Samba said:


> As Chris mentioned, holding the food reward in your hand and moving it away fast so the dog has to chase it to get to your hand makes the food more interesting and elicits prey drive.


Eeek, that would be a great way to lose some fingers in my house, LOL! :wild: I have a hard enough time getting Halo to take treats without chomping on me even when we're not doing anything, and it's practically impossible when in motion. I can't seem to train her out of it because she chomps me AFTER I mark her for being gentle and release the treat to her.


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## Jason L

I don't feed Ike out of a bowl either. If he wants his dinner, he better come chase me down.


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## elisabeth_00117

Chris Wild said:


> Well, aside from the obvious of using really high value treats that he doesn't get any other time, and making sure he's hungry, you can also associate two drives together and in doing so use the higher one to raise the weaker one.
> 
> In this case, if prey/toy drive is high but food is not so much, use the food as a prey object. Put the food in your hand and tease him with it, use fast energetic lures.. basically interact with him with the food like you would with a toy and keep the same energy in the sessions. I know one person who even put a hotdog on the end of a flirt pole and got the dog to chase that, raising the value of the hotdog by associating prey with it and conditioning the smell of food to trigger a prey drive response. And make sure to keep an energetic, happy, upbeat tempo when using food just as you would with a toy. Too many people are energetic and playful with a toy, then become boring and dull when using food.
> 
> Associating the two drives together can help strengthen the lesser one, with the bounds of what the dog is genetically capable, but helping you eek out ever last ounce of the drive he possesses nonetheless.


I have tried everything and anything as far as treats.. nothing really got a "spark" out of him.

I am going to try doing what you suggested about teasing him with the food/treats, see if that helps.

Thanks Chris, great advice as always!


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## elisabeth_00117

Samba said:


> Is Stark getting meals out of a bowl?
> 
> Hogan's food drive dropped off a bit. He now skips a meal before some training sessions. I also don't give him any food in a bowl. We work for all food right now. I have been doing some teaching of positions, some fast heeling and teaching spin etc. Trying to make those little training sessions fast and snappy. As Chris mentioned, holding the food reward in your hand and moving it away fast so the dog has to chase it to get to your hand makes the food more interesting and elicits prey drive.
> 
> His kibble is pretty interesting to him at home. If we go somewhere more distracting and interesting he has to be hungry and I need better food rewards.
> 
> Here is Michael Ellis showing that food chasing thing with a little pup. After Stark does a behavior, mark it and then bring the food out and "make it run from him". Perhaps it will generate interest. Notice how Ellis stays on the move, he is on the hop! This inspires energy in the dog.
> 
> Leerburg


Stark does not really get fed from a bowl no.

His MM/OM is used as training treats and his RBM is used for "leave it" games.

I have seen that video before, I may have to use the 'treat the food as prey' model, it may help. I will try this tomorrow.

Thanks guys!


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## Samba

What are leave it games?


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## elisabeth_00117

I make him "wait" for his food (sit/stay, stand/stay, down/stay) and I also do other OB things before he eats (most nights, not all).


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## TitonsDad

I just discovered Titon has crazy ball drive tonight. I grabbed a tennis ball that squeeks and threw it across the room. I've never seen a faster black blur than that. This continued for 20 mins. I have a happy face.


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## TitonsDad

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I make him "wait" for his food (sit/stay, stand/stay, down/stay) and I also do other OB things before he eats (most nights, not all).


Can you make him lay down, put treats on each of his paws and make him leave it? Titon can...  I'm now working on leaving a treat on his muzzle.


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## elisabeth_00117

Yup, Stark has been very good at "auss" or "leave it" since he was very young.

Keep working at it so he doesn't forget it during the dreaded "butthead months" .. haha.

Good boy Titon!


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## Samba

I am thinking about this and wondering how much work he gets that is control work.... like sit for food, working on stays etc. Not an expert here, but I don't do much of that when working on drive in a dog. Those things drain drive for the work. Perhaps someone will explain or have a different take than I do, but, my sense is Stark may be spending a lot of time be relatively quiet, controlled kinda guy. You may want to leave off of some of the control until he is more up and pushy and drivey. Yes, the degree that is there is genetic, but I bet I seldom tap my dog's genetic potential.

What you will find is that drive, engagement and power in the dog needs to come first. As beginner trainers we often get hung up on getting the behaviors. In actuality, if you get drive and engagement first, the behaviors are easy to get later. An experienced trainer once told me not to train "poop face". If I get a dog out who is poop face and draggy, I won't work on the behaviors. This only ingrains the obedience as being a "low drive" activity. If the dog is not pushing to work, then I need to get it up and going. If I can't, we don't work. 

At first, you have to put out a lot of effort. Truly, attitude is everything. I don't know how your obed class works but not too many here train the dogs in much drive. It tends to be kinda boring to the dogs. 

We tried to make some vid today. The dogs are green at training and in a new place. It was a rough go to keep them interested. Please know there are people much better than us!! Not world class training. but trying to show the effort to keep the dog active and engaged. Action and praise and rapid rate of reward. I did some of the food chasing thing.

Soleil 

YouTube - canineconnections's Channel

Moxie Keeping her up and engaged.

YouTube - canineconnections's Channel

Hella, the pup

YouTube - canineconnections's Channel

One trainer I went to puts on rocking music and you have to hit it with obed / play for a few minutes at a time. She calls them "flash sessions" and believe me you are sweating doing obedience.


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## elisabeth_00117

Samba - YOU ARE TRUELY AWSOME!!!

These video's help SOOOOO MUCH!!!

Hella is the same age as Stark (10 months) and I see what I need to do to get that drive out! Be super excited!!!

I love my trainer, but as you said - class is low key and kinda boring. I learn a lot but I see what I need to do to get what I want out of Stark.

I will be doing things differently from now on!!!

THANK YOU!!!


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## sagelfn

i love this thread! very informative! thanks everyone


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## Jason L

I'm off to watch the videos but I just want to add a story of my own. Before I got interested in Schutzhund I enrolled Obie in a few obedience classes where he did very well (so well that he got his CGC when he was 8 months old). So the first time I brought him out to training the TD came over and watched. I brought out a treat and Obie automatically sat in front of me for it. The TD went: "What is he doing?" I said "Waiting for me to give him the treat". And the TD said "I know, but this is what he should be doing" and then he kinda punched me in the chest and grab the treat from my hand. 

Active vs Reactive - You can see the difference very clearly with Obie and Dottie. If I bring Obie out and I just stand there with nothing in my hand, he will just check out and go sniff and wander around. If I do the same thing with Dottie, she will stand there and stare back at me, bubbling and barking with excitement and frustration, trying to get me to do something with her. With Obie I have to push him to work. With Dottie, it is she that pushes me for work.


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## JKlatsky

Jason L said:


> I'm off to watch the videos but I just want to add a story of my own. Before I got interested in Schutzhund I enrolled Obie in a few obedience classes where he did very well (so well that he got his CGC when he was 8 months old). So the first time I brought him out to training the TD came over and watched. I brought out a treat and Obie automatically sat in front of me for it. The TD went: "What is he doing?" I said "Waiting for me to give him the treat". And the TD said "I know, but this is what he should be doing" and then he kinda punched me in the chest and grab the treat from my hand.


 
So true!! I really like the way this story illustrates the point. I see a lot of dogs that come out and wait for the handler to do something. These are supposed to working dogs and the only one doing any real work is the handler!! You want your dog to be pushing and you want intensity in the commands. If I ask my dog to sit or platz, I want him holding that position with a tenseness in his body ready to spring at the release to maul me for the reward. 

They learn eventually that they must control themselves in order to get the reward, but they have to REALLY want the reward first. I agree that it might be worthwhile to lay off the obedience and just PLAY with your dog for awhile. 

I'm going to see if I can get a video of my 10 month old puppy for comparison's sake. We've done a lot of work with him getting him engaged and we do a lot with toys. I initially learned to work with toys with my first dog, and am now going back to learn to use food.


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## Samba

Yes, Jason, your story was a great illustration. Love it and, personally, I can't wait to use it myself and thump someone in the chest!!


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## Liesje

I agree with perhaps too much obedience and control work. Often the drive is built through frustration. You could probably even do the same sorts of things with food that you can with a toy. For example, I'm sure if I were to hold Nikon's collar, toss a treat out, and rev him up (pat up his sides, say "hey...wassat?") he'd be barking and lunging at the treat same as a ball. 

I was not able to make a new vid last night. Nikon ripped a toe nail AGAIN so I had to keep him calm indoors, lest my carpet end up like  this  again! 

But I did think about Jason's questions and I think my response would be similar to what Chris was saying. When I train a new behavior, I use food. At first I don't need/want a lot of drive because I want the dog doing some critical thinking and to focus on precision. Even my body language and how I "talk" to the dog is different than when I'm using a ball. Once the dog understands the skill and can perform it precisely without ANY lure or reward present, I bring the ball into the picture to crank it up a few notches and get more speed and intensity. My goal is that the dog never does it wrong once the toys come back into the picture, because it has been trained and proofed with food.


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## Samba

Food drive and luring is used a lot these days. If a dog does not have great food motivation, it can make that a bit harder. It has been my experience that some dogs come into much better food drive with maturity too.

A lot can be accomplished with leash guidance and placement in the type of dog with lesser food interest. It is important to keep attitude up in that system. Handler praise, energy and a game of tug is a good way to reward those behaviors taught with physical manipulation. I guess I would call it "handler drive" as the motivator there. I think it can work quite well as the leash guidance and physical placement is a mild form of compulsion but it is all done in a way that does not dampen attitude.

I have not seen their systems extensively, but do see Ivan B. and Michael E. using such leash guidance. I haven't seen so much physical touching with them as with others though. It seems people got away from some of those methods with so much food luring, but I am finding them effective. The dog is not even distracted in learning by seeking the food in these methods. The handler has to become a huge attractant though. 

I think am wondering if dogs like Stark might not respond well to such. It is important that he learn to really enjoy a good game of tug with the handler though and that Elisabeth become a very "attractive" working partner.


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## Liesje

Samba do you think her work with the ball drive may increase his food drive? I agree that in general, the dog should really want to engage with the handler. I've found that the more I work on drive with toys, the more food drive my dog has, almost to the point where now certain treats are "too much" to use in the very early stages of learning a new skill. I think if she keeps up with the toy drive playing and holds off on control work for now, she may see the food drive increase as well, since the dog will be more motivated to work with her in general.


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## elisabeth_00117

After really reading over the responses from everyone and thinking about how Stark behaves and such... I think I have taught him to be calm, not that he is a calm dog... does that makes sense?

During OB, I was told you want your dog in a calm state so they will "listen better" and now I am seeing the problem with that. 

It may be fine for people who do not want to get involved further than basic obedience, but I may have done a "bad" thing.

I think the idea of "playing" with Stark and cutting out some of his OB work may help this.

I can see the potential there now that we've started with drive building (I will get a better video to post for opinions). 

Okay, so now I am going to "fix this", I don't want a dog who just sits there when a treat is infront of them, which I will admitt I've conditioned him to do. I want him jumping, crying, whinning, etc.. I know he wants to do those things, but you can almost see that he thinks he shouldn't act that way (excited). Ugh.. I need to really fix this.

Lies, interesting thought. I will be interested to see how that plays out. Do you think I should concetrate on just toys? or use food as well (tease with food, use a flirt pole with food, etc..)?


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## Heidifarm

Elizabeth - I know how you feel. Heidi started in SchH. a few months ago at the age of 3. Prior to that she had only done OB classes where their was more control and no drive. When starting her out in bitework, the SchH. trainer we work with recommends not doing ob yet during training, just work on drive building. Heidi had 3 years of me telling her to be calm, so it was a change for her when we went to the SchH. field and she was allowed to bark and pull. I also had to learn how to interact with her using the ball and not just food as the reward. It took some animation on my part, but she was like Stark, I could tell she really wanted to jump and by crazy, she had just been taught not too. Now I have to watch my fingers when I hold the ball!

Start is very young still so I'm sure you can get there!


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## Samba

I myself would try to make the food more interesting and also work on the prey drive for toy. It would make sense that if one drive increases, others may follow. I don't know any science on it. The dog is a whole creature though. Of course, some of it is maturity that happens as we try to train! 

Elisabeth, it makes sense that you have taught Stark to be calm. A lot of people do that. But, he is young and you can begin to tap what is in him and open his drive repertoire.

Jess got a dog that was a family companion for a few years. She started with him and his obedience was pretty hang dog. She changed the commands and started working on drive. One day she held him on a line and I tried to work a tug with him. He looked at me like I was bug nuts! I got tired and when he turned away, I smacked him on the butt with the tug as I was leaving. That dog whirled around bit that tug like nobody's business. We worked him a bit ourselves, took him to a seminar not too much later, and people tried to buy him off of Jess. It was in the dog, but had not been tapped or "turned on" before.

I don't think you have done anything really bad to your guy! Have more fun though!


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## elisabeth_00117

Thanks so much guys!

Honestly, you guys rock!

Okay, so here is another question... I have him enrolled in our competition ready obedience class that starts next month (trainer has been pushing our start date back a few months because of personal issues), should I pull out of that, go and work with him?

This class will be very laid back and she usually has the dog in a clam frame of mind while training.. I didn't see the problem with that until now.. eek.

I've trained with her since Stark was 10 weeks old (puppy socialization, obedience one, two and three) so I would rather pull out now than wait until we get closer to the start date and she is unable to fill our spot.


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## Jason L

I can't speak about the class but for me I much prefer the training club setting. The reason has to do with what Samba was talking about earlier: "You don't train a dog with a poop face." Sometime you bring a dog out and for whatever reason he just doesn't want to work. Well, if this is a training club outing, then you just put him back up. In a class setting, what can you do? What can the instructor do? In a eight week course the instructor can't very well tell the you to put the dog up and say "we'll try again next week". She and you will have power your way through the "poop face" and the bad attitude and that's no fun for you or the dog.


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## elisabeth_00117

See, that's what I am thinking.

I can work on drive building on my own for a month or two and then when I go to the club in the spring, we can start to formally train.. 

Do some more tracking (I've been slacking.. lol)... 

I think I have a call to make.


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## Heidifarm

When are you planning to start SchH. trainng?

I think if you spend a few weeks/months on the drive building now, he'll be in a good spot when you start SchH. I wish I had started doing that before we started going to the SchH. field for training, we started from scratch and it took a few weeks to really get it out of her. So if you start now you'll have a head start!


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## Liesje

That's a dilemma. I'm really lucky that my all-breed obedience trainer is really supportive of Nikon and Schutzhund. She knows me well enough to trust me and knows that I have a "program" for my dog. I know what I want and how I'm going to get it so I know when to sit out of one of her methods and use my own instead. For a long time I think my TD was not supportive of me doing other activities with my dog but I think I've changed his mind now that he sees SchH is the *top* priority and I will only do other things that are in keeping with my philosophy for training and the methods I use for SchH. I intended to be in a rally class right now but can't afford it and also feel that my dog is too immature in the head to be doing competition right now. I don't want to rush it, even though he already knows all the skills on an Advanced level course.

I think it really depends on how well you know your dog and how you've thought out your training program.


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## elisabeth_00117

Heidifarm said:


> When are you planning to start SchH. trainng?
> 
> I think if you spend a few weeks/months on the drive building now, he'll be in a good spot when you start SchH. I wish I had started doing that before we started going to the SchH. field for training, we started from scratch and it took a few weeks to really get it out of her. So if you start now you'll have a head start!


I have plans to start in early May.


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## elisabeth_00117

Liesje said:


> That's a dilemma. I'm really lucky that my all-breed obedience trainer is really supportive of Nikon and Schutzhund. She knows me well enough to trust me and knows that I have a "program" for my dog. I know what I want and how I'm going to get it so I know when to sit out of one of her methods and use my own instead. For a long time I think my TD was not supportive of me doing other activities with my dog but I think I've changed his mind now that he sees SchH is the *top* priority and I will only do other things that are in keeping with my philosophy for training and the methods I use for SchH. I intended to be in a rally class right now but can't afford it and also feel that my dog is too immature in the head to be doing competition right now. I don't want to rush it, even though he already knows all the skills on an Advanced level course.
> 
> I think it really depends on how well you know your dog and how you've thought out your training program.


To be quite honest, I had planned to do Obedience only with a little tracking on the side, but I have really started to fall in love with SchH.

I personally think Stark needs more out of a sport rather than just going through the motions of "sit, down, stay" in a obedience course, as do I.

I didn't really have a plan beyond that, but as I learn more and talk to others I am starting to form one. I'm a newbie so as I soak up as much knowledge as I can, I am becoming more aware of what I want and what Stark may need.

My OB trainer, as awsome as she is has said a few things to me in conversation that has had me doubting her. I think she is a great basic OB instructor but for those who want to do more.. I don't know.


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## rjvamp

Angeles loves his balls. Especially if they squeak! He brings them to me no problem and really enjoys squeaking them in my lap before letting them go. He gets very excited with them. I saw a vest on leerburg.com for training that has a ball holder on the back left shoulder. I noticed a photo that has a dog looking up at it and what appears to be in a heel stance. Is that a means to get the dog used to walking close to you in heel? Or just my mind putting an action to a photo that doesn't exist?


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## Heidifarm

I think you'll have a better idea once you start going to the club in the spring. That will give you the best feel for what kind of training you want to do.

I'm a total newbie too, but SchH. is addicting!


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## Jason L

Robert, yes, it's one way to teach the dog competition style heeling.


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## Liesje

rjvamp said:


> Angeles loves his balls. Especially if they squeak! He brings them to me no problem and really enjoys squeaking them in my lap before letting them go. He gets very excited with them. I saw a vest on leerburg.com for training that has a ball holder on the back left shoulder. I noticed a photo that has a dog looking up at it and what appears to be in a heel stance. Is that a means to get the dog used to walking close to you in heel? Or just my mind putting an action to a photo that doesn't exist?


A lot of people start by holding the toy where they want the dog's eyes to target. Once the dog understands how to hold their body, you fade the toy so it can be in your hand, pocket, or not on you at all. When my dog works in drive he tends to "crowd" me, so I hold my toy in my armpit. If it's on my shoulder or under my chin, he will crowd too far forward.


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## Samba

If it were me, I would be inclined to not do the class. Your dog is still a youngster in my mind. Okay, I train kinda slow and will never be on the podium.... so take it as you will....
I think he knows the basics. That is all I try to get on a pup. After that, build drive and work on getting engagement. Get it where he is pushing you to produce some fun when you start training. You will be amazed what a difference time and drive work can make. 

I do take classes some, but I am balsy, and use them to my advantage. If the ring work is getting boring, I flee the ring and go play tug and and such outside the ring. I don't necessarily go along with the prescription... but that is not easy for everyone to do, especially the new and or cooperative type people! Your teacher might not like it! I go because I can get some help with errors I am making and my rural home dogs need exposure. I haven't put Hogan in a class yet. The older rescues go and he tags along so I can get him out for drive work and seeing new places, dogs,etc. between classes.

Even if you don't end up doing schutzhund, the prey work and tugging and all is so good for drive in your endeavor. The really good obedience people I know are drive-aholics. Their dogs are keen to tug and play. Whatever you are doing, you have to always think "what is the dog's motivation to do this?" The more motivation you have the better the performance and the dog's joy in the task. It is supposed to be fun. Too much obedience work looks like people are sucking a lemon!!


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## Achielles UD

I haven't chimed in till now but... I do the same as Samba (lol would you expect different? lol) I like going to classes. I learn a lot from just watching if nothing else. However, when I am training my dog... instructor be dammed lol I'll do whatever I think I should do with my dog. Whether it be skip an exercise, release before told to do so, play tug .. whatever.

If you have the cahones to do this, then it can be a benificial training environment. If you can't and end up just following along in the lesson plans, it won't help you and Stark on building the drives. 

I come from an AKC Obedience background. Started off old school, jerk and praise. Saw Patty Ruzzo at a seminar and swung to the other side of the pendulum cookies, no leash, and praise praise praise (and even more food). Then learned to balance corrections and food rewards in training. Then I found Schutzhund and learned how to use drives. Wow what an eye opener! 

I teach classes now and for the general pet public, they want a calm and controled dog. We obsessed with training and competition, don't. lol But one of the biggest things is that no matter what you are trying to get from your dog, you will get what you ask for and you put into it, IMO. If you want calm and controlled, you're going to work more on quiet sits, stays and loose leash walking. If you want rive and energy, you have to expect it from your dog and put *just as much energy you want from your dog into your training*. So if you are boring, your dog will be boring. If you are animated and excited and rush from one exercise to the next and *move* you'll get more from your dog. You have to be willing to put your dog back in the car (or crate or whatever) if you put out the energy and the dog is having a "poopy" day.

So, as far as the class goes, be honest with yourself and if you know you'd just go along with the group, don't enter the class. If you're willing to be the "crazy" student (who may occassionally come to class, see the dog is poopy and then put the dog in the car or in a crate and just watch the class without him) lol then by all means, stay enrolled.


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## Samba

I love this video from Susan Garrett and I am convinced she saw me somewhere!


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## Jason L

Lol look at Susan Garrett smack her dog. She landed in a couple of good punches in there too!


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## Samba

Jason L said:


> Lol look at Susan Garrett smack her dog. She landed in a couple of good punches in there too!



:rofl:
That is the "smack the baby" technique! Luv it!!!:wild:


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## elisabeth_00117

That was hilarious!

I think I am going to cancel out spot in obedience class this time around and concentrate on drive and just have fun with him for a bit then hit the SchH field.

Thanks guys! Oh, and keep the advice and videos coming! I love it!


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## Jason L

So I was goofing around with drive building last night in the house. I stood over the dogs, had them between my legs, grabbed their collars, and showed them a ball slighty out of reach. Ike went bonker. Dots was confused as to why I was restraining her, and Obie looked like he wished I would just leave him alone so he can get back in bed and watched men figure skating with mom .... 

Genetics ...


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## Achielles UD

Well of course, we just had to do our own "bad dog trainer" sessions! lol What fun!!!

Moxie & Me






Voodoo & Samba(Carla)






I'll show the after-effects later. For now, must get some sleep! (been up over 26 hours now lol)


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## elisabeth_00117

Haha.. Those were great.. well, now we have to make another video!


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## Jason L

That was fun to watch. We should have a sticky thread where people can post their training videos (or we can just use Elisabeth's thread ). Love watching them.


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## Samba

More Stark vid!!!!!


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## elisabeth_00117

Post away Jason! 

I didn't get a video today, too windy outside.  

Will try another day.


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## Jason L

Building somethin' here ... just not sure whether it's ball drive or handler aggression


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## TitonsDad

That's most likely handler hand aggression... :rofl:


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## Cassidy's Mom

She's so cute! But my back hurts just thinking about working with a dog that small, lol!


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## TitonsDad

Cassidy's Mom said:


> She's so cute! But my back hurts just thinking about working with a dog that small, lol!


:spittingcoffee:


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## Jason L

Yeah, her Tuesday night agility class just kills me.


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## JKlatsky

She is SO cute!! She looks like she wants to nail you for messing with her


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## Jason L

You can see she is one of those dogs that does not do well with frustration. She does better when she is free to chase the ball around when we work on her drive. As soon as you restrain her, she either shuts down (sometimes) or she will turn on you in a heartbeat!


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## JKlatsky

I like this thread so much that I'm going to keep it rolling since I finally got some video of my puppy, Cade. He's about 10.5 months old. 

We started with food in this video (which he is less motivated by than his toy) and you can see some of the ways that I work to get him interested in the food. Pretty quick off the bat, he's starting to check out on me, so I take off right. Right turns, backing up, spins, and the hand waving help to make him more driven for the food. Running back to get more food helps get him more excited too. (See if you spot where he nips my elbow, and where I finally notice that I'm bleeding!) 

After that we broke out the ball. I really like his return with the toy. He really pushes me to play. I'm encouraging him to pull back straight, so when he does I give with my body or let him win to make him feel stronger for pulling back. He's just starting to learn some control with his toy. One thing I play is "Ready, Set, Go!!" and release him to his toy. And then there's the standard miss, miss, get it! 

You can also see he forges ALOT more with the toy than he does with the food. (This is why all the knowledgeable people on here recommend starting with food to get more correct position) Since I'm not working with a leash, I have to try and correct with reward position, which is why I throw it behind me or reward where I want him to be (which is why he flips over trying to get the ball the one time), I normally use food, but I wanted to show some stuff with the ball too.


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## onyx'girl

Thanks for sharing that! Karlo is a couple weeks older than Cade and we are working at about the same place as you.
Though I am using a tug instead of the ball right now. I do switch tug/ball, but mostly tug. Food is mostly used, too in the beginning.
One thing to point out that you are doing is _not_ raising the ball up to make him jump for it. At this age, we don't want them hurting themselves so it really is important to keep it low as you showed.
A couple weeks ago at training, a mali pup was jumping up to get the ball and landed sideways more than once til the TD told the handler to keep it lower. She didn't get hurt but they are still klutzy at this age. 
Great video, thanks for sharing!! Cade is looking great!

And Jason, I loooove Dottie!! She is an intense little b****!


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## Jason L

Great video. That was a lot of fun to watch. Cade already has a beautiful Mohnweisse-esque prance, with a straight up head tilt! Very cool!

Jane, yes, she is ...


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## elisabeth_00117

Great video!!!

Stark is 10 months old and we are working on it, gives me hope watching these videos. 

Thanks for posting these.


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## Samba

:sunburn:Ooh ooh it's nice weather in Florida!!

Did you get your shirt ripped?? That always happens to me!

Nice video. The Hogan pup is not that skilled! We are up to our hiney's in mud now, so little chance to train. 

This has been a fun thread! Actually made me train the dogs one day too! Hopefully, we will see more youngsters learning on video.opcorn:

I am so wanting to get out and train. I tracked Samba today and her track was under running water 3 hours later when we ran. Tomorrow, the weatherman says:snowing:

I, myself, am able to maintain a nice "moan-n-wheeze" position during heeling!!


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## elisabeth_00117

I tracked today as well.. through mud.. snow and more mud... oh and a mud/puddle where my $100.00 boots (why I wore my UGGS, I don't know) got soaked and now smell like muddy puddle water.. ugh.. the sacrifices we make for our training! Hahaha...

I also worked with the ball... it's getting better each day!

I love this thread and will contiue to check in here just because of it. 

I will try to get a video this weekend of our progress.


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## Jason L

Samba said:


> I, myself, am able to maintain a nice "moan-n-wheeze" position during heeling!!


Oh good god :crazy:


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## JKlatsky

Samba said:


> I, myself, am able to maintain a nice "moan-n-wheeze" position during heeling!!


:rofl:

And yes, the weather this weekend has been perfect!! We hit 70s!


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## Deejays_Owner

Wow, what I long thread!!
Never heard anyone back-tie a dog to build PREY/PLAY drive before.
Here I was under the impression that pole work was to bring out DEFENSE/CIVIL drive.


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## Samba

Oh, I always thought the pole was to hold the dog in a relative position and you could work on whatever you wanted to from there. Interesting.
If its only you working the dog, then well, its you and the pole sometimes.


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## Liesje

Deejays_Owner said:


> Wow, what I long thread!!
> Never heard anyone back-tie a dog to build PREY/PLAY drive before.
> Here I was under the impression that pole work was to bring out DEFENSE/CIVIL drive.


I think that has more to do with how the helper is behaving in front of the dog and reacting to the barking. I think in these cases the dog is tied in the box or on the table so that he's either boxed in or is really short on the pole, doesn't have any options but facing forward and barking. Sometimes there is no biting or no sleeve even present. Whereas using a back tie to build prey drive, it doesn't really matter how long your line is, the point is that you have control over the object and can offer it to the dog when you like the level of drive. You don't have to use a back tie, you can have someone else hold the dog, but if you are alone and *trying* to create a crazy ruckus dog, you need some way to keep yourself safe, lol.


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## Deejays_Owner

Lies

To me anyway PREY/BALL DRIVE is the desire to chase after something and grab it.
Dog Chases and pursuits, dog wins by possessing his prey/ball!!


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## lhczth

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I am finding it difficult in obedience to get something he will really focus on, food isn't a big motivator anymore either (have tried EVERYTHING). It could be his age but I would like to try to increase his ball drive a bit so I can use the chin and armpit techniques with it.


 
I think this is one of the biggest mistakes people make in training. Trying to find an object that motivates the dog to work. YOU should be the dog's motivator. Playing with you, praise from you, treats from you, interaction with you. Make it about you and doing these things with you. Once you accomplish this you also will not need to use the toy as a lure (under the chin or in the armpit), but as part of the reward for doing what you ask.

I have to do this with my dogs too because they are extremely possessive. They learn that it isn't about winning the toy, but getting to fight with me, interact and play with me. This becomes their reward more so than just getting a toy dropped or food spit at them.


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## Jason L

Deejays_Owner said:


> Lies
> 
> To me anyway PREY/BALL DRIVE is the desire to chase after something and grab it.
> Dog Chases and pursuits, dog wins by possessing his prey/ball!!


Back tie also adds an element of frustration to it.


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## Liesje

Deejays_Owner said:


> Lies
> 
> To me anyway PREY/BALL DRIVE is the desire to chase after something and grab it.
> Dog Chases and pursuits, dog wins by possessing his prey/ball!!


Yeah....

I guess I don't see how the presence of a "post" automatically makes the activity civil/defense work?


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## Doc

I'm not convinced that you can "teach" ball drive - the dog either has it or it doesn't. If the dog has it, you can cultivate it but to teach a dog that doesn't have ball drive, I'm not sure that can be done.


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## elisabeth_00117

I have to disagree Doc, I have seen a HUGE change in my dog since working with him.

I would have posted a video today but it is blizzarding and the camera would have gotten destroyed.. lol. BUT.. we did go out and work!


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## JKlatsky

I understand what you're saying, that ball drive has to be present in order to bring it out...but I also think you can quash the drive enough to make it appear non-evident. So, many people who say their dogs don't have ball drive are not exactly accurate. 

I also think that when we are talking about "ball drive" we use other drives to create drive for the ball like Play and Prey. Dogs may not appear to like balls, but once they learn how to engage their handler with them they suddenly show "ball drive".

I know that when we started with Argos he would watch a ball and maybe half-heartedly make a grab for it. Didn't look promising. After a few weeks of working, it really started to show through. Now, I have to tone him down because he gets too excited and stops thinking.


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## Liesje

Doc said:


> I'm not convinced that you can "teach" ball drive - the dog either has it or it doesn't. If the dog has it, you can cultivate it but to teach a dog that doesn't have ball drive, I'm not sure that can be done.


I agree, though I don't think drive is an all or nothing thing. Some dogs can have more drive than others (or none at all I suppose) but I think which drives a dog has and to what extent is largely genetic. For example, I could back tie my mutt Coke for years but he will never show prey drive like Nikon does. Also because of his breed mix he has the "soft mouth" so he tug and plays with toys differently. Not better or worse, but it is what it is, genetic. However the human has to give the dogs a way of expressing their drives. In the wild dogs may have prey drive but balls, sleeves, tug toys, etc are human constructs so we do have to mold the dogs to show them how to use their drives to interact with us. Also, how a dog expresses drives often changes with age. Many dogs have no interest in balls as youngsters but get crazy as they mature, and obviously a puppy isn't going to exhibit civil or fight drive like a mature adult.


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## Deejays_Owner

lhczth said:


> I think this is one of the biggest mistakes people make in training. Trying to find an object that motivates the dog to work. YOU should be the dog's motivator. Playing with you, praise from you, treats from you, interaction with you. Make it about you and doing these things with you. Once you accomplish this you also will not need to use the toy as a lure (under the chin or in the armpit), but as part of the reward for doing what you ask.


Good post Lisa :thumbup: 

I really don't get this "back-tie a dog to build PREY/PLAY drive".

Hey I guess you could build FOOD drive too, this way!!!
Tie the dog to a pole & show him hot-dogs :rofl:


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## JKlatsky

I did a quick search on You Tube...

I don't think there's any defense/civil here...substitute rag with ball on rope. Same theory. 





And I agree. Your dog does have to work for you and not just for the toy or you lose your dog when you fade out the toy. And it shouldn't be about "the toy" and trying to find one that works. The one that works should be what's at hand and what is comfortable for you to use and play with your dog, not the miracle toy that suddenly makes your dog work. I can use a piece of bush that I pull out on our walk, and my dog will play with me for it because we have built a relationship of play and fun, regardless of the object. However, plant matter is not practical long term, so I choose to use a ball.

But I think for most people, the toy is the bridge to starting the bond that you need. Same way we teach puppies we are food dispensers, we teach them that we are the source of fun and play. Not every new person comes out knowing how to play with their dog and keep the dog engaged. Learning to do successful drive building with toys or food, I think, helps people learn how to build a relationship with their dog and aides them in learning to be a better handler.


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## Doc

I will submit that a dog has to have "ball drive" in him somewhere genetically to exhibit ball drive. That isn't to say that the dog does not have some other type of drive or drives. I just don't think you can "teach" or "train" ball drive to a dog that is not genetically wired for it. And Lies is right, the type of ball drive can vary if it is in the genetics of the dog. In this case, as trainers, the ball drive must be correctly identified and cultivated. IMO

I feel trying to force a dog to have ball drive when they are not wired for it is an exercise in frustration and time wasted.


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## Doc

Somebody needs to explain this "back-tie" to me. It sounds like something out of the movie "Deliverance"! Right before you tell them to squeal like pig.


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## Liesje

Doc said:


> I feel trying to force a dog to have ball drive when they are not wired for it is an exercise in frustration and time wasted.


There's a difference between forcing it and showing a dog it's OK, especially if you have an adult dog that has previous been trained that barking, jumping at the owner, getting all excited is *bad*. I'm not saying that is the case with Stark, but we have this right now at our club, a couple did all the normal pet type obedience training and now want to do SchH and the dog needs to first learn to just open up and that it's OK to be really excited about working with her person, and her person needs to learn that it's OK for the dog to be really excited about working with her.

When Nikon was little I back-tied him but it was just for fun, just a way to play with the dog and wear him out a bit while keeping control of the game. Sometimes when your dog has so much ball drive, the back tie helps just so you're not constantly getting bit, hehe. It also let me keep the ball low *and* out of his reach. Naturally, you sometimes hold the ball up or jerk it up and away from the dog to keep it away, which results in the dog leaping 5 feet up which is not cool for a growing dog. It's like taking a dog to an open field and playing fetch with the dog on a long line. It's not necessary for training or drive or whatever, but it's something fun to do and a measure of control over the dog. My dog likes to bark and lunge and carry on, the back tying is just a way of playing this fun game and letting him let it all out so he can bark and be crazy outside without hurting himself.


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## elisabeth_00117

Actually Lies, as I continue to work with Stark, I feel it is because he was told or atleast trained not to jump or get "too" excited over things that was/is causing issues in our training. 

When he gets really excited and starts to "loose it" a bit he automatically stops and looks to me for guidance, almost like "you sure about this Mom?". I constantly have to re-engage him and ensure him that it's okay to get super excited, bark, jump, lunge, etc.. 

Maybe he is ball/toy/food driven and I just have been surpressing it with all of our controled obedience training?


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## Liesje

It's definitely possible. 

But, for me the bottom line is that it's FUN. For me it's not just about my dog being a super-bred working dog with drive that is just *there* or doing everything we can to maximize points or whatever, it's just FUN to tease up the dog with a toy and then go to town tugging. It's FUN to chase each other around the yard with him barking and me acting like a fool. It's FUN to back tie the dog so he can bark and lunge and bite at the toy and kill it dead. Heck, I play these same games with my doof of a mutt dog!


----------



## Deejays_Owner

Here is an old Video of Deejay at 18 months, I'm using food & a ball in my jacket.
You will see that he starts to loose focus on the turn, I just broke it off.

ClipShack - DeeJay4


----------



## Samba

You can't "teach" ball drive. But, you can have a dog who has been stifled you may then have to work a bit to bring out its genetic drive. I have seen that occur many times.

Had a friend adopt a family dog who wouldn't come into drive for work. He looked at me with a tug like I had grown horns. Complete non-understanding of the game or what was wanted. Once I found out what would trigger him, he never looked back and excelled in his drive and protection work. I didn't teach it but I tapped it, so to speak. You can keep it dormant and many times it is so. 

You can have a dog that has become fixated on a specific toys. Then you will find yourself working to "teach" the dog to accept other toys.

I think Lisa makes an excellent point! The idea is that you are the attractant.... not so much the food or the toy but the actual interaction with you.

Back tie.... take about a 15 foot line and tie it to a pole and then clip the dog to it. I had a bitch that wouldn't bark easily. I backtied her and got the water hose she was nutty about. When she would make so much as a squeak the water jumped. Pretty soon she was barking, barking. The back tie added to building frustration which resulted in her drive coming up and up. In prey work with the helper, the handler is the pole. Okay they should be more than that I suppose, but still it is the same idea. The helper doesn't work a dog in drive building with the dog simply running loose about the field!


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## Samba

*back tie and prey work*


----------



## Burns0716

Doc said:


> Somebody needs to explain this "back-tie" to me. It sounds like something out of the movie "Deliverance"! Right before you tell them to squeal like pig.


This movie has scared me for life. 


Im not sure if I read it in this thread, or in another but I want to THANK the person who gave the tips about playing with your gsd and building a good play drive. I believe the tip was to get him to bite the tug.. and let him win every now and then (I praised him BIG TIME when he gave a REALLY hard pull on the tug, which is when I let him win). He wanted MORE, and was SOOO excited to do it again.

The other tip was to stop at the correct time, when they've had a good amount of play but still want more, it WORKED! Ah!! Thank you!!:happyboogie:


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## Deejays_Owner

I'm thinking back to the OP, as was Lisa I think.
She needs to build a bond/relationship become the dog's motivator.
Don't see how the back tie helps here other than building frustration!!

But each to his own I guess, this has been a very good thread.



Doc said:


> I'm not convinced that you can "teach" ball drive - the dog either has it or it doesn't. If the dog has it, you can cultivate it but to teach a dog that doesn't have ball drive, I'm not sure that can be done.


**** I even agree with Doc


----------



## JKlatsky

Just an opinion, but I think sometimes putting some distance between the handler and the dog can help a dog that has learned to be polite. OP commented that she may have had too much "calm obedience" taught and that the dog had learned not to jump. 

Sometimes if you give these dogs the space away from their handler and the handlers the ability to feel safe from being mauled by an over enthusiastic dog, everyone can open up and learn to play. I've seen too many people trying to build drive with their dogs get scratched or jumped on and flinch or "OUCH!!" or knee-jerk reprimand and a dog that is sensitive to it's handler may quit or become concerned and start moderting themselves which defeats the purpose of the whole exercise, I think. 

People do not always instinctively know how to play with their dogs. I think a back tie gives a very concrete sphere of play that can help an insecure handler (this is Not directed at the OP).

And I agree. The relationship should be built, but it needs to be a different relationship than the one that has been previously created.


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## Liesje

^ Agreed, it keeps it fun and safe. If the dog is having fun and the human is having fun, what's the problem? Isn't that the point? Having fun with the dog? Not everyone is going to play with their dog exactly the same way.

Also, I like to use a bit of frustration in training but also need to maintain control. I have one of those dogs that will redirect bite or whatever you want to call it when he's really hyped up. For example when we are doing protection I can't be reaching all around his face/neck trying to find the line attached to his collar or I get bit. Sometimes the same is try with balls/toys, depending on what we are doing and what state of mind he's in. He's not a dog where I can hold onto his collar and tease him up, or he's flinging his head all over, biting indiscriminately. Even on lead/collar while playing I have been (accidentally) bit in the face, stomach, hands, thigh, butt, and last week somehow got bit or knicked on my right heel. It's all accidental of course, missed targeting or the human not paying enough attention, but at times it is nice to really tease up the dog and have total control over the game, get him used to some frustration. My main reason for playing with a back tie at this point is when the dog needs some good, hard exercise and I don't have time to drive him somewhere and run him. Not everyone lives on an acreage, we have to get creative with keeping the dog's physical needs met with the amount of space we have. It works him really hard and he barks the entire time. Three minutes of this for him is equal to about an hour of plain running and fetching.


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## Doc

Deejays_Owner said:


> I'm thinking back to the OP, as was Lisa I think.
> She needs to build a bond/relationship become the dog's motivator.
> Don't see how the back tie helps here other than building frustration!!
> 
> But each to his own I guess, this has been a very good thread.
> 
> 
> 
> **** I even agree with Doc


Sweet Jayzus! :happyboogie::toasting::snowmen::dancingtree::sun::surfer::gsdbeggin::laugh:


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## Jason L

If it works for Stark, why not keep doing it? Like JKlatsky and Lies said, play is play.


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## Deejays_Owner

To me anyway, I want the dog to push me with the toy.
With my dog the toy has little meaning after he has won it.
He does not run off with it, he pushes it back at me, the fun is with me.
It's not about the toy.


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## Jason L

Brian, that I totally agree with. 

But some dogs are not like right out of the box. With my working line pup I don't have to teach him to love the ball. He does that himself. I bring the ball out and Ike is jumping, clawing, barking, basically pushing me to start a game with him. I don't need to do a lot of frustation stuff to build interest. So with him I can skip that step and just move to to teahcing him the ball is only fun with WE are playing together.

But then when I take Obie, my low drive mutt, out to play, it's different. I can't assume that the sight of a toy will drive him into a frenzy. Sometimes he wants to play, sometimes he doesn't. So before I can teach him it's fun to play with me, I first have to teach him it's fun to play with a toy. 






Of course, Stark has a ton more drive than Obie so I bet with Stark it's more a matter of rebuilding a play relationship, teaching him it's ok to let loose and be stupid crazy


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## Deejays_Owner

With our dogs they don't get rewarded for jumping or barking when a toy or food comes out.
They get rewarded for focus, thinking acting on command.
When I pull a ball out of my pocket the dogs plant themselves focus on me.
They wait for a command, now the command may be "FREE", lets play!!


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## Liesje

Deejays_Owner said:


> To me anyway, I want the dog to push me with the toy.
> With my dog the toy has little meaning after he has won it.
> He does not run off with it, he pushes it back at me, the fun is with me.
> It's not about the toy.


No one's saying they don't or won't. Nikon puts toys in my hands or jams them into my belly. Back tying for some fun and exercise is not going to suddenly erase that bond or prevent other types of play.

With the back tie, the dog rarely "wins". It's more about pure prey and chasing the toy. If I give my dog a bite at the toy, I'm prepared to counter with tugging. If he's on a back tie for 3-5 minutes, he might only get a bite once or twice, and often only because I teased him just a little bit too close and he got a freebie. If he got the toy and I wasn't tugging, he'd still jam it back to me for more (or drop it at the end of the line and bark at me to come get it if he didn't have enough line to get to me).


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## Liesje

Deejays_Owner said:


> With our dogs they don't get rewarded for jumping or barking when a toy or food comes out.
> They get rewarded for focus, thinking acting on command.
> When I pull a ball out of my pocket the dogs plant themselves focus on me.
> They wait for a command, now the command may be "FREE", lets play!!


It's all fine and good but I think this is more along the lines of how she has been training and now what she is trying to undo. There's a time and a place for lots of control and focus, but there's also a need for more intensity.


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## Deejays_Owner

Lies

I would be thinking more along the lines of getting Michael Ellis "The Power of Training Dogs With Food" DVD.

Very easy to get good DRIVE with food. 

Good thread here
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...eos/127366-michael-ellis-training-videos.html


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## holland

Haven't read the whole thread but I agree with Castlemaid use the toy that your dog loves if it isn't the ball use the tug...I use food too but have much more fun training with a toy...


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## Liesje

I'm familiar with Ellis and also train with food. I just don't see any reason to stick with one reward, one method, etc. Not sure about the dog but that's too boring for me! I like using food, but I also like the benefit of being more physical with training, getting a good work out (tugging, fetching, chasing each other) and having that physical aspect (not talking about corrections, that's another debate!). The OP has been training with food up until this point and that hasn't really worked for what she's looking for.


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## Deejays_Owner

I highly doubt it's the food or the dog.
More to do with developing a good foundation, reward placement, shaping & marking behaviors.
Maybe I'm alone on this one, but feel this idea of back-tie and working the dog up to a frenzy for a ball could be dangerous.
Just hope that you are not walking your dog down the street by some young children with a ball someday, if you get my meaning.

Anyway this has been a great thread


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## Liesje

Sorry, I don't get the meaning...


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## holland

I've trained with Ellis in person haven't seen the videos ...we used a ball it was his suggestion


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## holland

Oh I don't think there would be anything dangerous about working the dog into a frenzy for the ball...but why if the dog likes a tug use that...why put the energy into trying to make the dog like something else...use what it likes


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## Jason L

I don't get it either.

In Ellis's tug dvd, there are a few scenes where Ellis is working to build up the dog's desire for the tug (for dogs that are not "crazy about the tug" right out of the gate). He has the handler hold the dog back while he teases the dog with the toy ... now instead of person holding the dog you tie the dog to a post. Does it really make that much difference?


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## Liesje

Brian are you saying that my dog would attack a child to get to their ball? That's going against your whole point. My dog works *with me*. I let my friend's little girl walk my dog (with me behind her) and hold his ball. My toy of choice is usually the medium Gappay ball on the string. Before I started using my own rope, Nikon would routinely rip the ball off the string. We have several of these balls lying around the house and the yard (I don't deprive him of toys to squeeze out every ounce of drive, I don't care if he's chewing on the same toys we use together as long as there's one left). He is not running from one to the next in a frantic state all day long, lol. Sometimes he might chew on one or entertain himself by dropping it in my lap so I toss it, but other than that, his interest in this particular toy depends on whether or not *I* am playing with it too. And we don't always use the same toys. It seems you are suggesting that because the dog has been backtied he will have out of control prey drive for any object that moves....


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## Doc

"back-tying" sounds like doggie S&M to me. Tease, control, power .... interesting (from a psychological perspective but a strange way to "play". I'm not passing judgment it's JMO.


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## Samba

In general, food is good for precision training and teaching behaviors. Toy drive is better for building intensity and drive that adds speed and carries through the routine. Both are useful and I don't like to have to rely on one. I would do what I could to have as much of both at my disposal. This is dependent on the genetics in the dog, of course. With both at your disosal you can work on getting precision, adding drive, getting precision..... back and forth for balance.

Wonderful dogs all over the world are back tied day after day to build drive. There is nothing inherently dangerous about drive work. The intensity increases and the dog's enjoyment increases. Always glad to provide my dogs with the mostest fun in life! It is a great joy. To fear it or liken it to torture does not reflect an understanding of the work/fun for the dog.


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## Doc

As my old friend told me years ago, your breed for drive, you don't train for it. He also said "don't try to make a dog something it's not. Manfred Heyne selected his herding dogs from pups that exhibited the identifiable innate traits that would develop as the pup matured. If they didn't exhibit the traits soon after birth, he didn't select them as herding dogs.
At San Rafeal guide dog pups were selected if they exhibited certain traits early in their life. By knowing what to look for in a very young pup, they had over a 90% success rate in picking pups that successfully completed guide training.

You breed for these kinds of dogs, you don't train dogs to do the tasks. JMO


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## Jason L

Kinky stuff!


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## Deejays_Owner

Don't get me wrong guys, under the eyes of someone who can read dogs, done by a helper, YES.
Can't see them doing it for building a motivator as in this case, myself.
But a Novice, doing this on there own, NO.
If you learn how to move your body to block the dog, drive can be stimulated very easily.
And it's not self-rewarding like a back-tie; as it comes from playing with you!!


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## Samba

Oh, of course a person must breed for drive. But that breeder can tell you how an owner can squash, fail to tap or fully develop that genetic potential. Two different things. I think Elisabeth well understands she is not teaching ball drive but is rather tapping and developing what might lie dormant.

Worked with a dog who showed no interest in tug or biting or pursuing. He had been family raised and was quite controlled and squashed. He looked at a tug like it was foreign and wouldn't bite. After a bit of exposure money was being offered for the dog for police work because of his natural abilities. Well, who knew unless they enabled the genetics to display with opportunity .

Much like this Elisabeth can not genetically engineer her dog at this point but she can do the best to find out what is naturally there.

Great working dogs are born and made. It takes both.


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## Samba

I think back tie and working with a dog is one of the easiest things a novice handler can do and is a good place to start!


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## elisabeth_00117

Samba, you are using a great example.

I taught Stark not to use his natural instincts.

I taught him that being excited was not acceptable.. 

I am now tapping into that drive and teaching him that it is okay to become excited over toys and such.. 

I can see a HUGE difference now.. 

He still looks at me when he gets super excited almost like, "are you sure you want me this excited?" and is looking for that correction or redirection to a calmer actiivty, but with a "it's all good - go for it big boy" reassurance from me, I am really seeing what he is capable of.

*Will post more, have to let the beast out.. lol.


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## JKlatsky

Jason L said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JDAs0vLncI
> Kinky stuff!



I know...look at all that leather and buckles...


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## Liesje

Samba said:


> I think back tie and working with a dog is one of the easiest things a novice handler can do and is a good place to start!


LOL, no kidding, we're talking about play here, not bitework! This is not rocket science.

We use the same principle in a lot of other ways: restrained recalls, having the instructor hold my dog in agility so I can get a lead out and steer him fast over the obstacles, tying out puppies and young dogs during protection....


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## JKlatsky

Liesje said:


> LOL, no kidding, we're talking about play here, not bitework! This is not rocket science.
> 
> We use the same principle in a lot of other ways: restrained recalls, having the instructor hold my dog in agility so I can get a lead out and steer him fast over the obstacles, tying out puppies and young dogs during protection....


Nice point!

I had forgotten about restrained recalls, but you're absolutely right!! Same principle. What about the Voraus? I've seen people use restraint there as well. Actually I've even seen people do it when they start tracking for dogs with limited food drive. Someone holds the puppy back, who gets to watch the handler act all excited and lay the scent pad and put the food down...

Physical restraint to build drive is actually, now that I think about it that way, an extremely common way to increase drive for an exercise.


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## Liesje

Voraus definitely, I'm doing that now and training it on my own, so restraint is really the only option (have to hold the dog while I place the container at one end and then basically drag the dog clawing and screaming backward, lol.


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## mjbgsd

Interesting thread


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## Doc

If it's not in the genetic makeup of the dog, you are waisting your time. If it is there and has someway been supressed, then you can probably find it. But a well bred dog selected for his natural innate drives would have a hard time having them squashed IMO.


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## elisabeth_00117

That's your opinion Doc, but I can see a HUGE difference already.

Maybe it would be harder to squash if the dog was given the opportunity to do so at a younger age, but like I said from the time Stark was 10 weeks old he was in obedience classes where we taught our dogs to be calm and that being silly and excited (hyper) was not a desired trait to possess.

Stark is very prey driven and I was both redirecting that and verbally correcting him when he would "get too carried away" (too excited or interested in a toy or object) now I am asking him to "get too carried away", and you can see that he was/is confused and looking to me for more encouragment/to make sure he's "allowed" too.

Stark is and has always been obessed with his tug, he loves to play with that thing and constantly will bring me something (anything) he can use as one, so I am trying to take that and redirect it with a ball and other toys as per the advice of my agility instructor and others.

I also have to learn how to "play" with my dog, I am very reserved and tend to over think things and so I have to learn to "forget about everything else around me - people, training, advice, etc.." and just have fun with my dog and let him do what he does naturally - be a crazy, silly puppy.


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## Deejays_Owner

Doc said:


> If it's not in the genetic makeup of the dog, you are waisting your time. If it is there and has someway been supressed, then you can probably find it. But a well bred dog selected for his natural innate drives would have a hard time having them squashed IMO.


*Doc I have to agree with you again!!*
*I'm shocked too :laugh:*

It's hard to believe that people need to back-tie a dog to play ball with it.
That is a sad state is it not. 

Sorry I have never owned a GSD that did not have high prey drive, it's hard to form a mental image of it.
I wish I could squash some drive from my two here, because they are prey monsters.
The little has jumped over a railing on my deck to get a bird & the deck is over 6ft off the ground. 
She is a little over the top. :wild:


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## Liesje

Brian, not everyone is back-tying trying to "create" prey drive. I'm not sure how many times we have to say it, it's a fun way to play with the dog. It's being waaaay over complicated, to the point of silliness. If the dog didn't have any prey drive, it would be futile.


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## Samba

It is such a basic thing. It is not for the "drive challenged" dog really. It won't work with an extremely low drive dog whose genetics don't allow success. That is not what we are talking about here at all. I guess someone should alert trainers supplying narcotics dogs, the DOD military program, many plain old competition trainers etc about the strange nature of this every day, common technique. It just is not special or high level really.

I have had very high drive dogs and been around a number. All been backtied at some point. Its not "special" work at all. It is common and basic.

We were doing restrained go outs just the other day for AKC the other day. It worked great and was so much fun for the dogs! I forgot about all the many places you can utilize this too!

I myself am a little verklempt people who train don't know about it. I don't travel in unique or high level or some sort of secret training circles at all.


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## Jason L

Liesje said:


> Brian, not everyone is back-tying trying to "create" prey drive. I'm not sure how many times we have to say it, it's a fun way to play with the dog. It's being waaaay over complicated, to the point of silliness. If the dog didn't have any prey drive, it would be futile.


Yup. It's one way to play with the dog. Not the only way. Not really sure what the problem with ...


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## elisabeth_00117

Well, today I forgot the ball. I thought I had it in my bag but someone *cough, Stark, cough* must of took it out.

So, we improvised and use both a pinecone (I use these in OB sometimes.. lol) and a stick. 

Now, my question is this.. lol.. Stark is obsessed with sticks and pinecones, like if he sees one, nothing else matters, kind of how I wish he was with the ball. I use pinecones in obedience sometimes but they are really messy and so I don't bring them as often as I like because it makes a mess and distracts the other dogs during their training (sniffing the floor, trying to eat the pieces that fall apart).

Since Stark is so drawn to these objects should I just 'forget' the ball and use those? Like with the tug (his drive for sticks as high if not higher than the tug)?


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## Samba

I'd stick with working with the ball and tug myself. Pinecones and sticks sound messy and a bit dangerous, actually. He can switch his affections!


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## Jason L

I say keep working with both. Ultimately you are teaching Stark that the toy is just a way to play with you. You are the game. The toy is just equipment.

I would also continue to see if there is a way to work obedience with Stark using food. Like Lies said in a post earlier, you don't want to mix play and obedience right now since you want to get Stark's prey drive as high as possible. Cliftanderson posted something awhile back in the schutzhund section about how he likes to wait until a dog is over a year old before he moves from food to toy for obedience. I thought that's a really interesting observation. At the seminar where that back tie video came from, Dieter Schmale also said something similar. From 8 weeks to 10 months, he said he will do all obedience with food ...


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## Samba

I too would try to concentrate on the drive promotion and play. There is time enough for obedience later and it comes fast when you have the motivation in place. 

If you just can't keep yourself from obedience, stick with food and teaching him how to get in position etc. Small easier stuff and short sessions of it. Minutes worth actually...


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## elisabeth_00117

Okay, that's what I have been doing.

Obedience work with food and then using the tug and ball to really tap into his toy drive.

I actually found something that he likes (dried liver) so I have been using that as well as chicken and cheese, I don't get a huge response from him with it but I will keep working on it.

I have also decided to drop our formal obedience class and just work at home for a bit. We are enrolled in agility once per week and I think are going to add another agility class on the weekends with a friend of mine (same trainer - same classes just doing it twice per week now) so that will help with socalization, focus and fun/bonding.

This thread is so awsome.. so informative.


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## Samba

Oh fun! Agility!!! I think cross training is awesome for dogs.


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## elisabeth_00117

We got started in agility because our obedience trainer cancelled her classes for awhile due to personal reasons.

I wanted Stark involved in some sort of class (socialization, focus work, etc.) so this was the only other class going on. 

We have a tone of fun in class.


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## Northern GSDs

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I actually found something that he likes (dried liver)


Just wondering if he likes dried liver if you've tried some cooked liver cubes? Some dogs that show little interest in other food really seem to go for the liver! I've done boiled liver (threw a couple garlic gloves in the water as it boiled) and then chopped it up into bite sized cubes so it was quite easy to do. You can also sprinkle with a tiny bit of garlic powder too.


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## elisabeth_00117

I put the liver in the oven and broiled it until it was crispy on the outside and cooked on the inside.

He seems to like it for now.


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## Doc

If a dog shows "interest" in an object i.e. tug, pine cone, stick, liver, and shows no interest in a ball, why would you keep using a ball to bring out a wanted response? 

I'm not being confrontational, I just don't understand and would like to know that line of reasoning and thought.

Many times it is better to "listen" to the dog than people. The dog will "tell" you what he/she likes and needs if you are observant.


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## Liesje

IMO, drive is drive. I actually agree with you Doc that the dog either has some of it (some more than others) or not. But it should matter pinecone vs. ball vs. tug, *if* the dog will work for an object then it really shouldn't matter what the object is. Of course the dog will always prefer one, but should work with you for them all regardless. Nikon prefers a certain ball, but I have three different balls, two tugs, a Wubba, and a Kong on a rope and he will interact with me, play, tug, fetch, and work for any one of these objects. For me, a pinecone would just be too sticky, you can't play tug with it, the dog would eventually chew it and destroy it plus possible hurt himself. So, I'd use a ball, tug, Wubba, kong, leather rag, etc....something safe and durable that doesn't make a mess and is easy for the human to interact with.

I think that if you ask people what training reward they use, the answers are more influenced by the preference of the human, and the dog has learned to prefer that object over the others simply because the human interacts with that object more naturally and is presenting that object the majority of the time. So the way I see it, the dog will either play and interact using toys, or he won't. The human can decide which toy to use and in the end it really makes no difference to the dog, just like you might use leather leashes and I use ASAT. It's a matter of preference. I mostly use a ball because that's what I trained *myself* to be most comfortable with.

I watched Elizabeth's original videos, the dog clearly does show interest for the ball. I would run with it, see where it goes. There's no harm in trying....


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## JKlatsky

Liesje said:


> IMO, drive is drive. I actually agree with you Doc that the dog either has some of it (some more than others) or not. But it should matter pinecone vs. ball vs. tug, *if* the dog will work for an object then it really shouldn't matter what the object is. Of course the dog will always prefer one, but should work with you for them all regardless.


I agree with this. If I pick up a rock and make it look like fun my dog should work with it (or at least until I give it to him a couple of times and he realizes it's not actually worth having). He does this not because he so desperately wants what I have (it's a rock for pete's sake) but because he is conditioned to responding to my body posture and attitude that I present to him when we are working. 

We work with what I want to work with, because it's either what I have at hand, or it's more appropriate for what I want to work on. My dog LOVES those cheap vinyl squeaky balls. I like to use them for the Voraus. They don't work when I want to tug with my dog and are incovienent to use as a reward for exercises where I want my dog to stay engaged with me. But if I present him with the rope ball, he should work even though it's not the squeaky ball. What we work with really has more to do with me and what I want to work with than the dog's choice. I'm the one who decides our training program, I'm the one who decides what we'll use to the best effect that day. 

I also think that some preferences are learned. Why does Stark like pinecones and sticks so much more than balls? What have his experiences been that have shaped his response to those toys? Sure dogs have preferences, but a dog that likes to play, likes to play. I absolutely think that it is possible to build different toys as motivators by giving them value to the dog. Of course in the beginning, you pick something the dog shows a natural preference for because that gives you the most chance at success for reinforcing drive, but in the end once the dog understands the game of it all, it really shouldn't matter what you use.

This goes back to the point that was made about building the relationship with your dog. In the end, your dog isn't repsonding totally to what you have in your hand, but to you and how you present youself.


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## Samba

Interesting discussion also. Because of the desired interaction of tugging, I myself don't find the things that the dog just "gets" to play with that appealing. I really want to work on getting the coming back to me and tugging game going. That way the toy is an extension of you and you are integral to the fun with it. 

Of course, yes, for certain exercises, whatever the dog loves is great and it may not be a training situation where much interaction is as needed. 

My current pup is rather possessive and I am really having to work on the return to me.


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## Doc

Lies, your point is well explained. My only difference would be that I think "drive" is an overall term used to summarize the individual drives that a dog contains. I think some dogs have more "ball drive" than others and some dogs have more "food drive" than others where another dog may have more "prey drive". All of these individual "drives" add up to be, what is collectively called "drive". Further, I think these individual "drives" are a direct function of genetics - i.e. one dog may be genetically wired to exhibit more prey drive than another. And some dogs may not be wired for certain drives at all.

I believe that the key to understanding German shepherds in specific is to recognize the genetic makeup of the dog (what his "drives" are how he is genetically wired) and create the correct environment that will allow full expression of his "dominate" or genetically wired drives.

IMO there is nothing more disturbing than to see a dog being trained/trialed in an exercise/event when the dog's genetic drives are wired for a different challenge. For example, a SchH/showline dog being punished behind the truck because he didn't meet the owners expectations. Maybe the dog hasn't got the "drive" it needs? Training is great but "if the dog ain't got, he ain't got it." It's not the dog's fault and it's not the trainers fault.

I've enjoyed this thread and the exchange of information.


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## Liesje

There isn't really "SchH drive". There is play drive, prey drive, pack drive, fight drive, defense drive, food drive....maybe a few others but those are the ones I am familiar with. I see ball drive as falling under the umbrella of play and prey drive, not really as it's own drive. The dog is not driven for the ball simply because it's a ball; his drive is determine by his genetic makeup AND how the human handles that object and interacts with it an the dog. So I don't really see it as "tug drive" vs "pinecone drive" vs "ball drive". When a dog will do backflips for half a piece of the most bland kibble on the planet, we call it "food drive", not "half a piece of bland kibble" drive. If the dog requires an insanely rare, tasty reward and/or the effectiveness of the reward breaks down under higher distractions or more stress, I say the dog has "low food drive".


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## Doc

Lies,
Are you saying that within a particular drive category (whatever you label them), the dog has no pecking order or preference? And that is determined by the interaction of the dog with the trainer/owner? 

I always thought, in food drive for example, that there are "high value treats" and "treats". And that is based on the dog.


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## Liesje

I think that a dog that needs high value treats has lower food drive. I do think it is based on the dog, based on the level of drive. People come out to our club (all breed pet obedience club, not the SchH club) all the time insisting their dog has high food drive, but then they come in and the dog completely ignores them even though they are waving prime rib in his face, whereas another dog will come in and give total attention for a pea-size crumb of saltine cracker. 

If a dog has high drive, within that category, I believe that preference is of little importance other than which reward makes sense for what you are doing. I think a dog that will work as hard or harder for less demonstrates higher drive for food. The dogs I know with high food drive show no significant preference, other than trying to use something that truly is inedible. There might be a preference but IMO there is a line where the dog is on one side or the other - he's working with the focus and intensity you want, or he's not. He's either doing the behavior you want with the drive and intensity you want, or he's not. He might prefer prime rib but will still work on the "good" side of the line for a goldfish cracker. Same with toys. Nikon prefers a ball, but he will work with the focus and intensity I want if I'm using a Kong Wubba. And, like I said earlier, I do think that most of a dog's preference for one toy over another has more to do with how the handler uses that toy that a dog's innate preference. My reasons for using different toys are like JKlatsy is saying, some toys just make more sense. If I'm playing fetch, I use a toy that I can actually throw. If I'm tugging, I use a toy that won't rip apart. If I'm doing a bit of luring, I use a toy that is the correct size and easy to handle. During heeling training I use smaller toys that I can easily hold in my right or left hand or shove in my back pocket, rather than having a large tug toy I have to somehow keep out of sight so as not to use it as a lure crutch all the time.


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## JKlatsky

^^^^^^^ :thumbup: That's pretty much how I look at it. If your dog will only work with a certain toy then your dog is either lower drive in general, or you haven't put in any effort to generalize the play/prey drive.


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## Samba

They can adopt a preference for a particular toy. Michael Ellis addresses this in his material. He states it is important to introduce different toys and get the dog biting on a variety of object surface types. Obviously, toy preference can develop even in a relatively high drive dog. My BC had toy preferences and there's no doubt at all about her drive package. She has injured herself due to extreme prey drive that exceeds self preservation... and still, did have some toy preference that had to be worked through. It wasn't a particularly hard sell though.

Also, age and developmental stage can affect the exhibition of inherent drive. Puppies are usually better motivated by food than a toy and with maturity that can switch. Young dogs may not display the drive that develops with age. How many times have people had to "put the dog up" for awhile? It is awaiting growth and development of drives.


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## Jason L

Doc said:


> IMO there is nothing more disturbing than to see a dog being trained/trialed in an exercise/event when the dog's genetic drives are wired for a different challenge. For example, a SchH/showline dog being punished behind the truck because he didn't meet the owners expectations. Maybe the dog hasn't got the "drive" it needs? Training is great but "if the dog ain't got, he ain't got it." It's not the dog's fault and it's not the trainers fault.


Doc, I agree with this but I think this can also be somewhat of a grey area question. I know that at the club I go to I've seen the TD tell people flat out he will not train their dogs in protection (bad nerve, too much defense, not enough drive, too old, etc.). But I've also seen him and others in the club take on "project dogs" and off-breed dogs and try to make the them better. So, yes, if the dog ain't got it, he ain't got it. But what about dogs that have something, maybe not enough genetically to be a great SchH dog, but enough to title? What would do you in those cases?

I guess this goes back to the question we started: is there a point to drive building? Or is it more "if you got to build drive in dog, the dog doesn't have drive to begin with."


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## Samba

Of course, there is danger in awakening otherwise sublimated prey drive.

Prey drive run amuck....

Raptors Mascot Fails To Sublimate Prey Drive, Eats Cheerleader - Whimsy - Deadspin

I know there are people bent on titling for monetary purposes and the like. That is no fun for a dog to suffer under and I too would find that inappropriate. But for a novice trainer to try to learn to elicit the most they can in their dog through play, well, that seems like a very appropriate activity. I have learned a lot by working with dogs who were not a cinch to train. As long as there is not abuse, there is much to be learned and enjoyed by both dog and owner! 

I have seen dogs exhibit completely different pictures with different people working them. The genes didn't change but the methods did.... amazing difference sometimes.


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## Doc

Jason L said:


> Doc, I agree with this but I think this can also be somewhat of a grey area question. I know that at the club I go to I've seen the TD tell people flat out he will not train their dogs in protection (bad nerve, too much defense, not enough drive, too old, etc.). But I've also seen him and others in the club take on "project dogs" and off-breed dogs and try to make the them better. So, yes, if the dog ain't got it, he ain't got it. But what about dogs that have something, maybe not enough genetically to be a great SchH dog, but enough to title? What would do you in those cases?
> 
> I guess this goes back to the question we started: is there a point to drive building? Or is it more "if you got to build drive in dog, the dog doesn't have drive to begin with."


IMO, there is nothing wrong with maximizing what drive a dog has. My concern is that sometimes when a dog gives all he has, he is pushed way too hard trying to get more out of him. Does that make sense?


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## Liesje

Samba said:


> I have seen dogs exhibit completely different pictures with different people working them. The genes didn't change but the methods did.... amazing difference sometimes.


Excellent point! I know at this point, my dog often works better with my trainer than with me! I'm still a klutz, it's not the dog or the drive that's the problem it's the handler. Our trainer has been doing this for years, he understands my dog and the genetics because he's done a lot of work helping train the dog's mother. The dog will get a little wary of where I am if it's a longer session but otherwise has a lot of fun working with the trainer with me watching.


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## Liesje

Doc said:


> IMO, there is nothing wrong with maximizing what drive a dog has. My concern is that sometimes when a dog gives all he has, he is pushed way too hard trying to get more out of him. Does that make sense?


I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you that dogs are pushed, but it's kind of a stretch here. We're just talking about the fundamentals of *playing* with your dog and you're mentioning show line Schutzhund dogs getting punished behind a truck... I think there was a thread about this in the SchH subforum very recently and most people seemed to agree that you cannot make a dog into something he is not. You can try, and you can attempt to disguise certain things but anyone who knows what they are doing will see the dog's weaknesses plain as day. So many people that get started in SchH don't even compete until their second or third dog.


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## Samba

Whew! I was wondering how a thread about Liz playing with a ball with her dog meandered into talk of S&M and abuse. What a journey it can be! Maybe we should start a different thread topic.


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## holland

If its a journey I just want to curl up on the couch and spend the day watching good movies


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## Doc

Maybe it's time to "Call the question" ...

These infromative threads do take several twist through the course of discussion!


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## Deejays_Owner

I know I don't see things the same as some of you here.

But for me I want my dog to push me for the reward!!
I want the dog to initiate training, by pushing me with his eyes!!
In the end, the dog believes that he himself is in control!!
Then you have a thinking, happy driven dog!!!


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## Samba

Well, I don't know of any of the trainers on the thread that don't have dogs that engage and push for the training and reward. I am not sure how what we have described is in anyway contrary to such a result. Engagement is the goal I am sure and initiation of work by the dog is desired. There is nothing about working on prey drive that is contradictory or in antithesis to such. I am pretty sure of this because many world class competitors who have very active dogs in obedience use just such methods.

There is nothing coercive going on but merely drive development so that you have an animal with the desire to push forb something in training. Very basic work for dynamic obedience with an engaged dog.

What about prey drive playing would stop a dog from initiating engagement?


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## Achielles UD

Of course we want the dog pushing for the reward. But first you have to have the dog see whatever you want to use, as a reward.

If your dog isn't motivated by food much, you have to build it.

If your dog isn't motivated by toys and play, you have to build it.

I agree that some of this is genetic, but so much more is built/trained than genetic, IMO. All dogs have prey drive to some extent. Some more than others (and really, whether toys or food, its still based in prey - hunt/chase/eat) but it is there otherwise the species wouldn't have survived. You can take a bulldog or fru-fru breed and build the desire for your chosen reward. You just have to tap into and build it with how you interact with that dog.

I mean, look at Dottie and Obie! We aren't talking stellar Schutzhund lines here  But Jason does a great job in building that prey drive! 

Really, a reward is what you make it to be. I view all things for the dog as currency. How much will it take to get the interaction I am looking for? If it is at home, in the field, kibble may work fine, but if I want craziness I need to up the value. How do I up the value? Well I can starve the dog lol and make them crazy for kibble or I can get out the cheese or liver or whatever. 

I mean even our "reward" system (Paychecks/money) have different values. Why shouldn't we expect our dogs to have different reward values of objects?

Drive for rewards and using the back-tie or whatever is not the opposite of having our dogs push us for the reward! It is building the drive for the reward we want to use (a toy) so that our dog will later push us for that reward. So that the dog will want to initiate training and beg us with their eyes for the work. The dog is believing that pushing you for the reward, that you as a handler built, cause he knows he is in control and can make you give him that reward. He's going to have to think and drive you for it!

Well that's my .02 cents lol


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## Deejays_Owner

Also many world class competitors get great drive with just food!!
They create calm, focused attention, and allows for more efficient problem-solving throughout the learning process.
Also know how to precisely control the dog's emotions, while teasing him with the prospect of food.

Just some more food for thought.


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## Samba

Here is some prey drive promotion using a method the trainer learned from a guy named Bernard Flinks. I am sure both Bernard and this boy intend to have very pushy and engaged dogs in the end of their prey drive promotion work. How would this kind of work interefere? To tie this dog would most likely result in the dog being able to work even higher in drive for the toy due to the added assistance of frustration, a technique well utilized for top competition performance. 






Since a powerful, pushy dog is the goal,result and purpose in this prey drive promotion I am not sure how this is different from a person who also desires such but does not use this method?

I have never seen prey drive for the sleeve worked without restraint. To be sure that training is very much utilized in a sport where the end result has to be a dynamically pushy confident dog who starts the engagement and demands more in a very powerful way. Are you saying that to tie a dog is detrimental to power and schutzhund training should abandon the technique so that dogs can learn to initiate?


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## Achielles UD

Well, I don't have access to training with any "world class competitors" but I can bet you that they really don't train with only food. Use it? Of course. Build drive, calm, focused attention... no doubt. But I seriously doubt they don't use play and toys. 

When using food, of course they attempt to control the dog (why else use it?) but they build that drive for the food! That is really what I thought this thread was about. Building the prey drive (whether ball or food). 

Ok, personally, I can forgo feeding my dogs a day or even two if I feel I need more drive for the food, to build that desire for the food reward. I know others that are horrified at the thought of their dog missing a meal  

We're talking about building drive. It all depends on what you are willing to do really. holland even gave me the impression that if they had to work for it, they wouldn't do it. ("If its a journey I just want to curl up on the couch and spend the day watching good movies") Personally, I'd put in the work.

The work may be making the dog hungrier, getting better food, back-tying, running around like a crazed monkey, or whatever. But to get more drive for the reward from my dog, again, I have to build the desire for that reward to an appropriate for what I need level.

Elizabeth needs to build the value and desire for Stark's rewards. Whether they be food or toys. To build it for toys, the calm, good-dog stuff has to be put on the back burner of training and work on having Stark understand he is allowed, after all, to be a "wild and ca-razy guy!" (lol think SNL) I believe she is right on track with her observations in why he is how he is. 

He is showing that he understands sticks and pine cones as fun and rewarding, but hasn't learned a ball/conventional toy is too. He can be taught this by working a bit. Back tying is one simple way for someone training alone to do this. It builds the drive because we elicit the prey in the dog with the quick movements and crazy never-before-seen-mom-do-that! attitudes we have when doing it.

This really isn't about food vs. balls. Regardless of which you are talking about, we are still tapping into the prey drive of the dog.


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## Deejays_Owner

Gottfeid Dildei & Joanne Fleming-Plumb to name two. 

Schutzhund obedience: Training in drive with Gottfried Dildei
Sheila Booth (Author) 
Amazon.com: Schutzhund obedience: Training in drive with Gottfried Dildei: Sheila Booth: Books

Happy Training!!


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## Samba

I know Dildei and Plumb's beginning obed training with food. I have had their books and tapes for years. I still do not understand the point? 

Most trainers start with food, of course, to teach behaviors in the foundation. I am willing to bet that Dildei and Plumb do not rely solely on food drive in final preparation for competition.

I have never had a top obedience or schutzhund competitor tell me that food will carry a team through. I just have yet to see it. I doubt that Joanne or Gottfried would advise such either.

I won't train with a dog that is not pushing and in drive. That is the entire point of Liz's current work with Stark. She did not have this and wants to get it by increasing the desirability of certain rewards in the work. Prey drive tends to be the higher drive than food in dogs final development so it is an important one to promote.

Achielles is steeped in Plumb's food training tradition! She does a lot with food and has very foody doggers. In the end, she knows that prey and play add an dimension of drive that is very useful. Precision work and early training with food, prey drive to add that additional kick in the performance and desire. I am taught this over and over again by those with successful careers.


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## Achielles UD

Thanks but I have it already  two copies in fact which are both loaned out lol 

I start off using food in training also. That's just it though. Begin behaviors with food.

Their books and videos are great and show mainly the beginning and little snippets of their training (from what i recall, been a few years since I watched Joanne's tapes). I whole heartedly believe they do not use just luring and the promise of food to accomplish training their dogs! Play is used I am sure. I mean, do you train personally with them? have they said, oh no, don't use the toy or back tie to build some drive for a toy... 

If you notice.. I am from Missouri  The "Show Me" state. I cannot believe that they would use only food in training. :shrug:

This really is not an anit-food/lure thread/post. This is a building drive thread/post. Still not sure how it drifted away from that?.....:thinking:


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## Jason L

I have both high drive and low drive dogs. I'm sure others do as well. And to me it's common sense that you have to work the two differently.

For example, I don't need to spend a lot of time building drive in Ike. He sees the ball, he goes crazy, he immediately starts pushing you for it. Instant engagement. _I don't have to do anything to put him in drive. He puts himself in drive_. 

Now to get Obie to get show the kind of interest/engagement that Ike can show in an instant, first, I would need to crate Obie for a few hours and then when I do bring him out, tease and frustrate the crap out of him (and even then I can only do this kind of stuff with him maybe 2-3 times a week ... otherwise he will get bored). What comes easily to one dog does not come easily to another.

If you have a workling line GSD or a high drive dog that is engaged right out of the box, fine, great, good for you. But it's unfair to think because a high drive dog does this automatically, all dogs should as well and if they don't, there is something wrong with your training or your relationship with the dog. Or conversely, because you don't have to use frustration to build interest in a high drive dog, that the technique is pointless.


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## Liesje

Deejays_Owner said:


> Also many world class competitors get great drive with just food!!
> They create calm, focused attention, and allows for more efficient problem-solving throughout the learning process.
> Also know how to precisely control the dog's emotions, while teasing him with the prospect of food.
> 
> Just some more food for thought.


I think training methods are not only determined by the genetics and temperament of the dog, but also the goals of the handler. There are a lot of people that are looking for a higher level of control and precision than what I'm looking for. I've watched many videos or trials in person where the dogs are very clean and precise and the owners gush over the dog's abilities but often it is just not what I want in my dog. There's no right or wrong, but not everyone is looking for the same picture.

I trained my adult GSD exclusively with food, so I know exactly what you are talking about, and my dog has earned several titles and blue ribbons without ever NQ-ing at anything she has tried. But now I feel like "been there, done that" and am toying with the other end of the spectrum. More drive, more intensity, less control work, less priority on precision.

For us, problem solving is encouraged via backchaining (which I always start with food rewards). But training is not only about problem solving and maintaining total control over the dog and his "emotions". I believe there is a time and place for food, toys, corrections, pressure/escape, clicker, backchaining, etc, etc. I do not want a dog that only responds to one reward and one method.


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## Samba

Yes, it seems we latched on to Achielles mention of food as a method of reward and then the desire to talk about it as the only method of reward. 

In the end, what is the detriment of focused, powerful, dog initiated obedience of utilizing prey drive promotion? That is the assertion I am wondering about. If this is detrimental to the dog being the pushy one to engage, I really do want to understand its deterrent effect.

Jason, I would bet you have not done much "drive squelching" training and raising with Ike either. Of course, Ike has the genetic endowment also.

Does this mean Liz should get a different dog with different genes rather than try to develop what her dog has? Of course not!

Lies, with balanced training you can have both power and precision, I believe.


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## Doc

OK, we've introduced back-chaining now. I guess that is for the ones that can break free from the tie. roflmao

I am convienced that this is doggie S&M now! And the dominatrix probably wears a lot of leather while they manipulate, tease, arouse, and excites the tied "victim". Oh the things we go through to accomplish a goal. LOL


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## Deejays_Owner

Achielles
I have been to Joanne's club many times never seen her work her dogs with anything but food.
Dogs jump out of the truck, and to attention, then out onto the field.
I use a ball too as a reward, but don't have to jack-up him up with it, to work for me.
My daughter & I have even had a race one day to see which dog would work 1st without a command.
We let the dogs run around in the field, then we both started to walking patterns.
Both dogs almost at the same time ran to our sides at attention.

Anyway Happy Training guys this has been fun


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## Liesje

Doc please tell me you do know what backchaining is...


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## Jason L

Samba, that's right. No "drive squelching" with Ike. Everything (including obedience) is done in drive. When I bring out a ball, I don't ask him "sit" for it. All I want is for him to show me enthusiasm. The day will come when we start making him cap his drive. But he has carte blanche to act like a fool right now.


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## Jason L

Doc said:


> I am convienced that this is doggie S&M now! And the dominatrix probably wears a lot of leather while they manipulate, tease, arouse, and excites the tied "victim". Oh the things we go through to accomplish a goal. LOL


Wearing a leather apron, manipulating, teasing, arousing, exciting the restrained victim/dog with whips and sticks ... I thought in Schutzhund that called training


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## Samba

Here is some obedience that is both powerfully driven and accurate. Of course, these guys don't use only food so perhaps they are wasting a lot of energy in their training that they don't need too!  If Joanne works only with food and correction that is super! Perhaps she does not tug or play toys with her dogs. There are many ways to train a dog. I bet we couldn't convince these guys to take such a route though. These incredibly joyful dogs may have been held back by a line once or twice in their life also! I am so happy they were able to overcome such work!

Dailymotion - Bart bellon - un vídeo de Deporte & Extremo


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## Samba

My dogs want to be "victims" all the time. And the only time they screame is if they are not the dog chosen to train. Must be Stockholm Syndrome.:rofl:

I am not able to compete much but I would do the same stuff with my dogs with no motivation to earn a title because it brings so much joy to the dog! My dogs love to work for toys as well as food so I don't hold them only to food as a reward as some do evidently. Schutzhund training for me is not abusive or horrible to the dog, they beg,beg,beg to get in the car and go to the field.


Doc, you must have gone to training with bad trainers! Stay away from there! Just because someone is a bad trainer doesn't mean an entire activity itself is bad. If there were true, one should never go to the doctor because I have seen some really really bad doctors at work! Medicine can kill ya, stay away!


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## Doc

Well if nothing else, Deejays Owner and I agreed on two things in the same thread! My meds must be working. roflmao

Next topic ...


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## Achielles UD

Deejay, Great! How neat to have worked with Joanne  But really, this isn't about whether it can be done. Lord knows I have trained a dog to titles using only food and did great with him. Achielles was seldom out of the ribbons and never played tug a day in his long life. So really, no contest to it being accomplished without the use of play and tug. Really I am just surprised tho, that a top level competitor would chose to leave a valuable tool out of their training... To each their own 

Personally, this has gone so off topic, I think it needs to get back on track  The information shared, the videos shown and the training thoughts were well worth the read  Somehow Doc and Deejay turned this into talking about S&M, food training and heaven knows what lol :headbang:

Let's get back onto How Liz is doing with Stark's toy drive  Please :gsdbeggin:


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## Achielles UD

Or we can pause for a commercial break...


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## mjbgsd

I had to work on getting Isa's prey drive up when she was younger as I did nothing with her until she was 8 months so it was slow bringing up her drive. After a while, (a few months) of waving tugs around and what not she has amazing amounts of drive probably even more then ever because she's matured. Doesn't matter what I bring out she will tug it, chase it, you name it. So drive can be brought out, though I agree, it does have to be there. So there's hope for the Starkster!

I'm working on Akbar's prey drive with any toys. I haven't started any formal obedience other then "companion ob" as I'm waiting for him to mature, but in the mean time I'm working on his drive. At 5 months, he wasn't into toys as much as food. Since I've been working with him for a couple of months, he goes insane for toys, I love it.


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## mjbgsd

Ok this is bugging me, how the heck do you get the videos in your post??


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## Samba

I found out that Joanne has and does utilize tug and toy work in obedience. She says she has a mali that is so high drive for work that it does not require any more than food, but that is not always the case. She relates, as many of us have already, that once the early teaching is done with food then toy can be added for drive enhancement in the work. I didn't imagine that this was a tool she did not use or espouse for its effectiveness.

I think that you just paste the url of the video. At least that is what I thought I did.


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## JKlatsky

I think the bottom line in most of this is that when you go out there to train your dog, you have a metaphorical "tool box". The more tools you have, the better equipped you are to deal with every training issue that arises. If you can have multiple high value items that can function in different ways, Why Wouldn't you??

Why would you hamstring yourself by only working with food? Why would you dismiss a possibly useful tool like a ball if all you have to do is a few weeks work to build a play relationship with your dog with that toy?

When I go out on the field to train, I want kibble, liver, chicken, a Sausage McMuffin, a ball on a rope, a squeaky ball, the Cuz Octopus, a jute tug, a sleeve, praise, a leash, a prong collar, a flat collar, a long line, my E-collar...EVERYTHING. I want to have everything that can be used, _able_ to be used so that I have OPTIONS. Sure I don't use all those things all the time, I have preferences too, but I like having them. I can tailor my training program to the behavior/goal/state of mind I want to teach.

If I can build something to motivate my dog why wouldn't I? Should I hang my head in defeat and mutter about how he just doesn't have it? Maybe the next dog? Heck no! I'm going to train my dog. I'm going to train him to enjoy everything I bring out to the best of his genetic potential and if that means I have to put on clown shoes and do jumping jacks for a couple weeks to get him interested in a tool that I want to use then that's what I will do! Because when I'm all done I will have another tool, another motivator to use! I will be generalizing my dog's thought process so that he learns WHATEVER Mom brings out means that she is going to be ridiculous and this is going to be FUN. Because Mom is FUN and I like working for her. 

No doubt some dogs will give you more, and more faster, and more faster and easier with less effort than others. Those dogs are what we usually refer to "genetically talented". But how do you know that limit until you work towards it?


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## Deejays_Owner

Achielles, this almost sounds like food. 
Back on page 20 


elisabeth_00117 said:


> I actually found something that he likes (dried liver) so I have been using that as well as chicken and cheese, I don't get a huge response from him with it but I will keep working on it.


Samba, I'm not a member of JP's club, so I can only tell you what I seen when I have been there. 

Been watching our Canadian womens hockey team kick the USA teams rear-ends.
So the dogs did not get to go for a run tonight, I got to go play tug with the dogs. :thumbup:


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## Samba

The toolbox is a great analogy! Yeah, you can choose a breeding for its genetics but you don't just grab a dog and a hotdog and enter competition. People commonly work to bring out the genetic potential of their dog so that everything can be used to its greatest advantage.

I love this little video with J. Gunn. She uses many of the tools I do... food, luring, tug toy, physical placement,verbal labeling and praise. Here we see she is introducing all of these tools to her puppy early. I don't know why anyone would not do such a thing with their young prospect. 






If someone did not develop some of these tools early it is not to late to work on them with an older dog. No one is advocating S&M. No one is advocating that food not be used(that's just silly). No one is forcing a dog to do anything... I mean I didn't say back tie and do an ear pinch to the ball for heaven's sakes! 

No one has said that if your dog doesn't have it genetically then here is an alternate way to create/inject it! That would be nonsensical also.


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## Samba

Deejays_Owner said:


> Achielles, this almost sounds like food.
> Back on page 20


Yes, of course there is mention of food!!! We, several on the thread, encouraged Liz to use food for her obedience work and to work on prey drive separately for the time being. Were you thinking something else had occured regarding the obedience work? Perhaps just a misunderstanding of the suggestions here?


If you only knew Achielles. She is absolutely and positively the last person in the world who woud advocate not using food in obedience. I think she holds the gold medal in this event!!!


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## Doc

Lets get the whips, chains, and leather out so we can get our dogs stimulated/aroused, after all it's just play and they like it.

I am not saying it is right or wrong. But ...

How do you know the dog views it as play? Have you asked him? Does he run and grab the back-tie and run to the door with it waiting for you to tie him up?

What if the dog hates it? How do you know what the dog is feeling while you are teasing him? I am far from being some PETA or Animal Rights Activist, but when this type of training is observed it could be preceived as "unusual" don't you think?

Just something to think about. There is a body of knowledge and literature that supports the concept that dogs have feelings much like humans. If this is the case, there could be a chance that some dogs absolutely hate being trained in this fashion.


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## Liesje

Well, how do we know anything? How do you know that your methods are "play" or any better or worse? What have your dogs told you when you "ask" them about their work?

I can only speak for my dog but he loves his training toys, he loves the game. If I'm walking around and happen to move near the training bag, yes he runs over excitedly and nudges at me and the bag. He is not trying to get away from his toys or the training supplies.

I would raise a child the same way I train my dogs - reward and compliment the good, set them up for success, teach them to work through pressure and conflict and come out with more confidence, make interactions about being together not just about getting something.


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## Jason L

How do you tell a dog likes anything? I mean, surely there are ways to tell if a dog enjoys an activity without holding a conversation with him.


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## Samba

Doc wrote:



> Many times it is better to "listen" to the dog than people. The dog will "tell" you what he/she likes and needs if you are observant.


I think that is how...


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## Samba

If a dog is being trained in a bad fashion that does not speak to the dog's greatest joy in expressing its innate drives.... bad training.

Like bad doctors.... Jed, stay away from there!


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## Achielles UD

hmm let's see... Probably because of the higher pitch barking, the excited happy tail, the look in the dogs eyes. Of COURSE they view it as play!!! :silly: Ever read any dog body language books? Study it? Know the difference between a dog that is fearful vs playful vs aggressive vs submissive, etc??? If you have any idea, of course you know how the dog views it because you read the dogs body language and listen to their vocalizations.

I've seen dogs that hate training in "schutzhund". They despised being on the table and if I'd known dogs better, I'd have understood it way back when and encouraged the owner to stop trying to do the sport with a dog that really wasn't meant for it. Flanking,:nono: and putting the dog in a situation where it is fight or die, now that is horrible. :angryfire: But...

This thread ISNT ABOUT THAT OR SCHUTZHUND OR anything else along those lines!!  It is about how to build drive in your dog for a toy or for food when they aren't exhibiting much interest.

:headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::hammer::hammer:


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## Samba

:rofl:Well, it is not always "play" I suppose. My old dog kept tearing up the inside of the patrol car he wanted to join in the rather serious fracas' when they occurred. He wasn't ripping upholstery because he desired to stay in the car! :rofl:

What is the obssession with training gone bad??? It happens, we all know it.
It doesn't happen every where or all the time.


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## Doc

Is it building more drive or discovering what drive a dog may have within him out?


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## elisabeth_00117

Doc said:


> Is it building more drive or discovering what drive a dog may have within him out?


With Stark I know it's discovering what drive he has and bringing that drive out.

Since I started really working with Stark I have noticed a huge change when I bring out the toys, I think it's because *I* have changed the way I play with him. I get more animated and really act silly.

I can also see him look to me more when he is in a situation that makes him uncomfortable.

I find the way we are playing is allowing a different kind of bonding to happen and I am extremely happy about that.


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## Doc

elisabeth_00117 said:


> With Stark I know it's discovering what drive he has and bringing that drive out.
> 
> Since I started really working with Stark I have noticed a huge change when I bring out the toys, I think it's because *I* have changed the way I play with him. I get more animated and really act silly.
> 
> I can also see him look to me more when he is in a situation that makes him uncomfortable.
> 
> I find the way we are playing is allowing a different kind of bonding to happen and I am extremely happy about that.


That's great Elizabeth.


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## Samba

Doc said:


> That's great Elizabeth.


Yes, indeed, it is super!!

My little dog pound rescue has only moderate drive. She was playing nicely with a tug with me. Unfortunately, I am a klutz and twice she thought she got corrected during this. She is a sweet and compliant dog and was happy to oblige what she thought I wanted... no play tuggy! 

Her genes didn't spill out on the floor. But, I am having to build, develop, promote, jiggyjiggy, whoopdeedo, that tugging back again. Poor girlie to have such a mum!!

Go Starkster dude!


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## elisabeth_00117

We had an awsome tug session today - it was blizzarding so we did it inside and well.. I got injured... twice.. lol.. oh well, we had fun...


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## Jason L

Stark unleashed!!!! Watch out


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## elisabeth_00117

I know, I look like I got beat up by a 200lbs man!




























Stark says, "I didn't do that.. look at me.. I'm a kitten!"











Hahahaha...


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## Samba

Welcome to the club! Stock up on bandaids!


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## sagelfn

:surrender:
i'm sick and 3 days ago I tried to catch up on this thread but had to stop because with all the meds I couldn't focus so today I come to try to catch up and there's 260 posts!!! by time I read them all you guys are going to have another 130 new posts so please forgive me if I reply to something you guys posted days ago i'm slow.


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## elisabeth_00117

I've been checking daily and I still am having a hard time keeping my focus... lol..


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## sagelfn

lol I bet! most aren't the usual post replys of just a sentence or 2 they are long thought out responses.. a lot of info to take in. okay back to it post #136 I have a long way to go!


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