# how to differentiate between DDR, Czech, East German, Dutch, etc lines



## workingk9_Ohio

Being new to the breed, I am curious in how you can determine which lines your dog has? I am reading as much as possible and just read this article:
(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

but it doesn't indicate *how* to tell which lines your dog are. Here are my dogs mom and dad. I would be greatly appreciative if any knowledgeable person could tell me a) which lines my dog are, and b) how you can determine that -- is it just a matter of being in the breed for awhile and knowing where certain kennels/dogs are from? Or is there something in the pedigrees that gives you this information specifically?

Thanks so much!!

Sire:
V Terror von der Staatsmacht

Dam:
V Chitty Leryka


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## wolfstraum

Sire is west German working lines, now the kennel is in the US...dam is half Czech (her dam) and half West German

I can tell because I know what kennels are where...just time and exposure and a good memory 

Lee


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## workingk9_Ohio

wolfstraum said:


> Sire is west German working lines, now the kennel is in the US...dam is half Czech (her dam) and half West German
> 
> I can tell because I know what kennels are where...just time and exposure and a good memory
> 
> Lee


Thank you! That's very helpful. Do you have any good resources for the differences between the lines? Any websites or books? The article I'm reading now indicates that there are temperament/threshhold/drive differences in the different working lines, and I'd love to learn more about that. 

Thanks, 
Carey


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## Wolfgeist

You need pedigree information to determine what lines a dog comes from, that really is the only way. You just have to start learning how to read pedigrees. Kennel names can point of lineage, as can the dogs themselves. For example, it is common knowledge that Lord vom Gleisdreieck is of East German blood. So, if you see him in a pedigree, you know there is some DDR blood in the dog. 

Pedigrees - German Shepherd Guide

German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide

Along with Chris Wild's great article, I also like this article:

http://www.unlimitedgsd.com/Portals/UnlimitedGSD/types.pdf

There is also Linda Shaw's article on the GSD Family:

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

Hope those resources help! You can also browse the article collection on the German Shepherd Guide... sometimes I forget what I've put in there.

Articles - German Shepherd Guide


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## workingk9_Ohio

Wild Wolf said:


> You need pedigree information to determine what lines a dog comes from, that really is the only way. You just have to start learning how to read pedigrees. Kennel names can point of lineage, as can the dogs themselves. For example, it is common knowledge that Lord vom Gleisdreieck is of East German blood. So, if you see him in a pedigree, you know there is some DDR blood in the dog.
> 
> Pedigrees - German Shepherd Guide
> 
> German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide
> 
> Along with Chris Wild's great article, I also like this article:
> 
> http://www.unlimitedgsd.com/Portals/UnlimitedGSD/types.pdf
> 
> There is also Linda Shaw's article on the GSD Family:
> 
> Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
> 
> Hope those resources help! You can also browse the article collection on the German Shepherd Guide... sometimes I forget what I've put in there.
> 
> Articles - German Shepherd Guide



Thank you very much for these links! I really appreciate it!

Carey


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## broski2815

Hi i had a question on how to tell.I recently bought a pup and was told he's east. We had an american GSD but she passed in January from DM. I recently went on a site asking for help on potty training and mouthing. Im also going to a local training place but i was looking for extra ideas.This broke out on a few people telling me i don't have an east GSD theres no such thing.Even though i was just asking for a little help. the akc paper from mom says her name is emma sophie vom drachenhaus and dad is Yeager von nikheim. I'm only looking more into this cause I'm getting really upset anyone i talk to is telling me how stupid i was to buy him do to them needing to be working dogs not family.And now i have people telling me i have no clue and he's not a East german shepherd


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## Reef LeDoux

broski2815 said:


> Hi i had a question on how to tell.I recently bought a pup and was told he's east. We had an american GSD but she passed in January from DM. I recently went on a site asking for help on potty training and mouthing. Im also going to a local training place but i was looking for extra ideas.This broke out on a few people telling me i don't have an east GSD theres no such thing.Even though i was just asking for a little help. the akc paper from mom says her name is emma sophie vom drachenhaus and dad is Yeager von nikheim. I'm only looking more into this cause I'm getting really upset anyone i talk to is telling me how stupid i was to buy him do to them needing to be working dogs not family.And now i have people telling me i have no clue and he's not a East german shepherd


Can you post a picture of your dog? Not that I can tell East from West from a picture. I'm just wondering what is making people tell you he's not the dog you thought he was. Plus why do they think he could not be a family dog? 
Basically ALL GSD's were originally working dogs. You did not buy a Labrador you bought a GSD. Since you had one previously Im sure you know what your getting into.
They are intense, protective and need a great deal of exercise, but they are excellent family dogs loyal, loving and wanting to please. 
Very intrested in seeing your pup


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## gsdsar

East German is DDR. It means behind the Wall. The dogs were bred for specific purpose, guard, and it was a fairly closed program. Due to inability to use dogs outside the eastern block. If I am making crazy broad unsupportable generalizations. DDR dogs are lower in prey drive, higher in defensive drive, suspicious, large, big boned, slow to mature. 

But there are very few "true" DDR dogs anymore. The lines have been mixed a lot. 

I looked at dads pedigree. And I am not good enough to know where his lineage is from. But most everything is few generations back. Titling wise. 

It makes no difference now. You have the pup. You love the pup.


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## EMH

The easiest way to determine if a dog is west german or ddr is to look at the dog's registration on pedigreedatabase.
So if you see a dog born in, say, 1985 and it has "SZ" with a bunch of numbers behind it, there's a 99% chance it's west german. If you see "DDR" with a bunch of numbers behind it, it's east german. This isn't 100% accurate, but I'd bet the house on it.
If you see a "z" between a first name and a name you could only hope to pronounce correctly, it's almost always a Czech dog or variation thereof.
Temperament, drive, attitude, strengths and weaknesses of each line of the breed is a totally different matter and i'll leave that to the experts.


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## David Taggart

I have East European line GSD(DDR). East Germany is a motherland to many breeding lines: Czech, Austrian, Hungarian, Polish and Belorussian GSDs. The main difference between East and West - is their size (hits the top of criteria and often oversized) and bulky appearance. One of reasons besides the fact that a true GSD ( "If the dog is not a working dog - it is not a German Shepherd" - Max von Stephanitz ) was preserved by Berlin wall from modification, EE GSD are almost free from HD, that is why the breeders are so much interested in them.


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## David Taggart

EE GSDs are very high in both - and prey, and protection drives, they are super as search dogs, they wouldn't be bread for Army if they weren't . But they are not suitable for Schutzhund competition, because they are too heavy and less agile than their Western brothers. Western GSD originally was bred to heard sheep, and East was bred to heard bulls.


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## Steve Strom

Bull herding, definitely.


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## holland

They are not bread for the army...bull herding??...hm


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## David Taggart

Don't believe the bull on Internet. Dogs are evaluated by experts on dog shows and IPO competitions. If you believe Wikipedia - Russian GSD may have blue eyes and was cross-bred with mastiffs ( saying nothing about breeding dogs to guard multiple prisons), Chinese recreation is a half-wolf, not a GSD at all, and the majority of EE GSDs do not fit classic GSD standards. Only Czech and DDR dogs are good, but theey are not completely good, because... Do you sense it? That is the war between certain breeders and breeding centres: in order to get your niche in business you have to blacken your competitors. All of it nothing but speculation. 
All GSDs in all countries of former Soviet block were bred to work in the Army and Police, and show line was never developed. They are absolutely the same as Western German dogs in everything except one thing - their larger size, and it is not known yet what to do with it. But as far as they don't have any skeletal problems and EE line is free from HD - Germany is very interested in refreshing the blood of present breeding lines. Such programs are many now days ://vombanachk9.homestead.com/about_us.html and US is a participant. The absence of information in pedigrees partly is replaced by DNA tests, whenever they were carried - the results show that nearly all EE lines are the descendants of pre-war German lines in East Germany. It is just the matter of evaluating these dogs in shows and Schutz competitions, and it takes time. My present dog was brought from Austria, I've got her just by chance. Five years ago German and Austrian Police turned to more Malinois and the litter went to public sales. Lucy is a girl of my dream. She is terribly obedient, but, her intellectual vigorocity would be a nightmare to some other owner.


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## gsdsar

I'm sorry. I am not sure what you are saying Vom Banach is going? Can you explain it better?


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## martemchik

As someone from Eastern Europe...I can tell you through first hand experience that the dogs are definitely not free of HD. The Russians during the Soviet era weren't really known for quality. As someone who's father was a Lieutenant in the Red Army, I will also tell you that the dogs are basically western German dogs that were bred larger with little or no care about temperament. As long as the dog bit, it was a good dog. Health wasn't a concern because you can always make more and you always had more to replace any that couldn't perform the work anymore.

Today, unless you're importing, I'd wager that the majority of Eastern European Shepherds are just larger dogs that were bred in America. They are known to be a bit more civil, and a bit less friendly than their German counterparts. My family will also tell you that the German dogs are "more intelligent" but I think that has a lot to do with biddability and trainability rather than actual intelligence. There is also probably a natural loss of drive, more than likely prey, due to the increase in size.

To put it simply, my family was very happy I got German Shepherds instead of EE Shepherds.


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## cliffson1

David there are so many inaccuracies and general statements that are as much hype as truth. east Germany had a Seiger conformation show every year, and it wasn't for military or police dogs....lol 
The hips of early hip dogs were probably marginally better than West, but not nowhere near HD free breeding as propaganda promotes.....
Hey Folks, but this is very interesting reading.


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## shepherdmom

So not all the OS dogs come from the pet market? Interesting.


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## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> So not all the OS dogs come from the pet market? Interesting.


.

Please do not carry this argument over into this thread.


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## David Taggart

Please, read it, a bit of history DDR History


The dog in world: East European Shepherd dogs

They are healthy dogs: Czech/DDR German Shepherds


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## martemchik

A true Eastern European Shepherd would not be considered a GSD. It's highly unlikely there would be a pedigree behind it, and if you did import one that has a pedigree, I don't believe you'd be able to register it as a GSD with the AKC.

The "breed" was split off a long time ago. There is likely to be other more heartier/larger cold weather breeds in its back ground. They are larger dogs, but if walking down the street you would probably think it's a GSD.

You can almost think of them as King Shepherds except they were developed 80 years ago and the line is recognized mostly by the soviet block countries. To my knowledge it is not a recognized breed by the accepted reputable registries.

End of the day, they look like GSD, but cannot be bred to a GSD and still consider he dog purebred as there will not be a pedigree.


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## martemchik

And David, provide reputable links, not just random websites that are created by random people.


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## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> .
> 
> Please do not carry this argument over into this thread.


Wasn't trying to. Just making a comment so that this thread will show up in my list of participated threads so I can find it again.


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## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> Wasn't trying to. Just making a comment so that this thread will show up in my list of participated threads so I can find it again.


OR...you can just click the drop down on Thread Tools and subscribe to the thread.


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## Jax08

Eastern European Shepherds are NOT DDR German Shepherds. A quick google search can tell anyone that.

So back to the original question...


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## martemchik

Only way to really tell is pedigree.

Most people that have been around enough of them can tell certain facial features and other things in the body that point to the over arching line. But that is still not an exact science as especially in the United states, the lines are constantly being mixed.


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## gsdsar

According to those links, neither "type" are free from hip dysplasia. So not sure what the argument is. And according to the EE link, the dogs were mixed with GSD and other local dogs. So not a GSD at all, a different breed all together. 

Still wonder what vom Banach has to do with any of it. She uses a mix of lines, Czech, DDR, and west German.


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## David Taggart

Here is a nice site on Czech/DDR: East German Shepherds | German Shepherd Breeder MA

Saying nothing that they took the best dogs as a trophy after WW II ended to start Belarus breeding centres RUSSIAN SHEPHERD TRYNEE IN MIAMI FLORIDA


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## Gwenhwyfair

There are DNA tests that can differentiate between the lines *within* GSDs?

Is that true?


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## Jax08

I don't think so, Gwen. There was a study that showed the genetic make up of the lines of GSDs and how closely they were similar or not, but there is no test as far as I know.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Thanks. I was thinking wowzers to find the individual genetic makers at that level of minute differences would be truly amazing and a boon for human medical science too.


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## Jax08

Here's the study
http://www.rsv2000.de/export/sites/...-shepherd-lines-are-genetically-different.pdf


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## Gwenhwyfair

Interesting! Glanced through, will read it entirely a little bit later. Thanks.


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## David Taggart

The world is changing right before your eyes. While GSD genetic database is building up and already in use for association, you can do this How it Works | Wisdom Panel UK


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## jmdjack

While I am no expert, I own a dog of east german lines and did a fair bit of research before going that route. While I am happy with my dog, I also believe there is a lot of propaganda and myth surrounding "DDR" lines (as exemplified in some of the comments above). Moreover, stereotypes are just that - generalities, not absolutes. For instance, my DDR dog did not mature slowly, has good prey drive, very little suspicion, and I would not characterize her as being high in defense drive. (She is, however, built like a tank). 

For broski2815, following is the mating test of your dog:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=2292237&mother=2292239

Upon quick review, going back in your dog's sire's pedigree it appears he is primarily DDR and west working lines while the dam appears to be a mix of DDR, west working, and czech lines. 

As for your concern that DDR lines are not suitable for family life and need to "work" all the time, that is not my experience at all. When we brought our DDR line dog home as an 8 week old puppy, my kids were ages 2 and 5. While my decision at the time may have been informed, in part, by some misconceptions (since dispelled through experience), it was not by accident that I chose to go this direction as my foremost concern was getting a dog who would excel as a family companion in a house with young kids. And, she has been a great family dog. 

A few years after we got the DDR female, we got a west working line male. A number of dogs in his pedigree get a fair bit of internet chatter. If you were to take literally everything you read about these dogs in his pedigree, you would probably be shocked to hear that he too is a good family dog. Real life is often quite different, and certainly more nuanced, than generalization about "lines" or commentary based upon a dog or two in a pedigree . . . . . 

GSDSar's comment about focusing on the dog you have was a good one. Since you already have the dog, don't get hung up on the pedigree. Focus on the dog that is in front of you and deal with him as he is rather than what others say he should be.


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## cliffson1

Of course there was a lot of propaganda around the DDR dogs to the West. I do think/know when the curtain came down their dogs probably had a little better hip health, and were sturdier and less disease susceptible. But they had good dogs and not so good dogs. There is reason they craved the genetics of Bernd v Lierberg and snuck breedings to him in spite of curtain.


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## David Taggart

Dogs are not the clones of one particular line, they are individuals. Here, we are discussing the future of the working line, trying to figure out the best possibilities for the future generations. We are living in the free market world, many people are reading this site, and the free market depends on the interest of the buyer. Dog business is a big business, makes a lot of money, not through the breeding only, and there always would be a war between breeding centres and kennel clubs. There is a war between show line lovers and working line lovers. Somehow EE lines made their way through, police buy them, and clubs breed them for IPO, and individuals are happy having them as pets (as I can see) despite all iron or wooden curtains. It means - they are good dogs. The only thing upsets me - is lack of information. Nearly in every site one and the same story about them. What concerns propaganda - you should know, that if you wish to change information in Wikipedia - you are welcome, anyone can correct the text bu clicking at the bottom. I've read about Husky recently. Every site says that they are totally non-aggressive beautiful family dogs. Why there was so much blood when I visited Husky club meeting, and why the owners complained about bitten children - only devil knows.


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## EMH

David, I don't want to come off as rude, but your entire argument throughout this thread has been, "I know because I read a website" and then you went off about Huskies for some reason. Posting random links does not make an argument and more importantly it speaks volumes about _you_, not the dogs.


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## cliffson1

Okay David, that's one way of looking at things, websites and videos have done a lot to improve the breed in recent years.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Read the article. Neat stuff! It should be noted, however, they did not differentiate between the subsets within WLs, DDR, Czech, WGWL and such.


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## ratjac

There is American Showline, DDR East German Working Line , West German Working Line, Czech Working Line, and West German Showline. There isn't a Dutch working line in the GSD. In the Dutch Shepherd there is The Working Dutch Shepherd Association. Ok


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## ratjac

broski2815 said:


> Hi i had a question on how to tell.I recently bought a pup and was told he's east. We had an american GSD but she passed in January from DM. I recently went on a site asking for help on potty training and mouthing. Im also going to a local training place but i was looking for extra ideas.This broke out on a few people telling me i don't have an east GSD theres no such thing.Even though i was just asking for a little help. the akc paper from mom says her name is emma sophie vom drachenhaus and dad is Yeager von nikheim. I'm only looking more into this cause I'm getting really upset anyone i talk to is telling me how stupid i was to buy him do to them needing to be working dogs not family.And now i have people telling me i have no clue and he's not a East german shepherd


There are 5 types of GSD, The American Show Lines, DDR East German Working Lines, West German Working Lines, Czech Working Lines and West German Showlines.


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## David Winners

ratjac said:


> There are 5 types of GSD, The American Show Lines, DDR East German Working Lines, West German Working Lines, Czech Working Lines and West German Showlines.


There is a pretty defined type of GSD in the KNPV program in Holland. They are not as prevalent as they once were as the Mal/Dutchie/mix has come into favor with police and military.


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