# Biting incident - who's to blame and what to do?



## JToews (Sep 22, 2012)

Hi folks. Our two-year old intact male GSD bit a stranger during a walk last week - the first and only such incident. It happened while we were hiking a heavily frequented nature trail. Some folks walk, others jog, even an occasional bicyclist.

He was leashed and at my side when we came into a turn in a narrow part of the trail. Two very tall adult men, walking briskly, approached at the turn, so kind of unexpectedly. I happened to know one of them and he recognized me, so as we passed he said hi and then, rather suddenly and without pausing or slowing down his walking pace, reached out as if to pet Toews on the head. As the arm came at him, Toews reached up and snapped it. It was so quick that I wasn't sure if he had made contact.

I immediately stopped and turned. We were now a couple yards apart. They stopped also. I asked if he'd been bitten. He said yes and approached to show me the mark which had drawn blood through the arm of his sweatshirt. Toews barked at him aggressively while I apologized profusely which he accepted but also asked if the dog was current on rabbis shots (he was and is). And that was it. They moved on as did we.

I was very bothered. Toews seemed pensive for a while but after 15 minutes seemed to have "moved on". 

Need the perspective of the folks on this forum. I never just reach out and pet a dog that doesn't know me, let alone without even stopping or slowing so he can sniff my hand. But now I'm concerned with walking him on this trail - something both of us enjoy.

Should I chalk it up to poor dog etiquette by this guy or am I negligent as an owner, or is it somewhere in between?

Much thanks for your thoughts and advise.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

totally your fault
muzzle the dog or leave him home
also be prepared that animal control may come knocking 
your dog bit and drew blood which is cause to even confiscate the dog or declare him dangerous


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I am very sorry this has happened to you and your boy. Nobody ever wants their dog to bite someone else, especially a stranger during a normal walk. 

I'm sorry to say that 100% fault will lay with you. In most states, your dog is considered an attractive nuisance. Meaning although people do not have permission to pet your dog, there is a high probability that someone will attempt to while you are out in a public place. You have to keep the public safe from your dog. Even if you had no idea he would ever bite anyone.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Don't excuse this in your dog. This is unacceptable dog behavior -- making contact and drawing blood isn't a "snap." It's a full bite. You now own a dog with a bite history. 

I think you actually ought to have him muzzled when you walk on that trail until you deal with this with a behaviorist. 

Had he bit a different person, your dog would face charges with animal control and a "dangerous dog" hearing in some places, and you could be sued.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i cant imagine there were not warning signs that the op may have missed such as
stiffening and a pause in breathing
hackles even if slight
dogs rarely bite 'out of the blue"


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JToews said:


> Should I chalk it up to poor dog etiquette by this guy or am I negligent as an owner, or is it somewhere in between?


Yes, and yes - BUT. Your dog has never done anything like this before so it was completely unexpected (right?), and the guy shouldn't have put his hand out without checking with you first. But still, people are unpredictable, and it's our responsibility to make sure that our dogs are not in a situation where something like this could happen. You can't control others, but you can control yourself and your dog.

That being said, I don't think assigning blame is at all productive. Who really cares whose fault it was? It happened. :shrug: Instead, I'd look at it as a learning experience and a wake up call. Now you know, so give yourself and Toews plenty of room on the trail when you're passing people so it can't happen again.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Magwart said:


> I think you actually ought to have him muzzled when you walk on that trail until you deal with this with a behaviorist.
> 
> Had he bit a different person, your dog would face charges with animal control and a "dangerous dog" hearing in some places, and you could be sued.


A muzzle is not a bad idea, and Magwart is right that there could have been serious implications. Better safe than sorry.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I would agree that this would be your fault, although I understand you were not aware that it could happen until it actually did. Toews should not have bitten him for just reaching out to him. Granted it was a stupid thing for the guy to do but none the less the legal implications will rest on you and your dog. I would prepare for the worst and have all of his shot records and such ready just in case. I know there have been others on here whose dogs have bitten and were taken for observation until they could find the required records.... Hopefully it works out okay for you...


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

whether your dog was frightened, protective or aggressive. it's both your fault, you let it's mouth within reach of other trail walkers. i wouldn't put it past my girl to bite a stranger's hand if they reached in her direction. you can still walk the trail. keep the dog on your side away from people. choke up on the lead while other people are passing and don't let people your dog doesn't know pet it.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Edit- Probably not appropriate video.


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

You should look into your city/town/county laws too. One thing I never even knew about until my boss told me was that in our city you have to register your dogs with proof of rabies vaccine every year at a cost of $3 per dog. Failure to do this will not result in anything. Unless your dog ever bites someone, is picked up by animal control, etc. Then if your dog is impounded due to having not registered your animals, you have to pay a $50 fine on top of all the other fees.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Whose to blame? --- wasn't there, didn't see it, can't say. Unimportant overall.

What to do now? --- talk to the person you know to see how he is. I wouldn't mention or ask about reporting unless he volunteers that information. Be aware that your dog does not appreciate fast approaches (if he was approached by a quick overthehead reach -- dogs in general do not like that -- don't think humans would like that approach either) and work to see that it doesn't happen again. The hard part is for you to avoid getting tense in close situations but to be "proactive" (a word I dislike) by having your dog move away (like to your other side) or sit when faced with such a situation.
Hopefully, nothing much will come of this incident and nothing more will happen with your dog and people.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Key item to note is "If nothing is changed , it will happen again". Live, learn and move on.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

One thing you can train is for the dog to heel at your right. I like to teach the formal heel at left, a right heel, and a between the legs recall so I can control my dog when I see she is uncomfortable. My dog hasn't shown biting behavior, but she'll bark and scare people and I don't want that. If she is right heeling, she has no chance to get close to bark. 

I especially like this on hiking trails, where we have to pass people in a tight spot. The dog heeling at my right prevents A) that person from patting her B) my dog from acting in an undesirable way. 

Also, I'd give a quick call to your friend and make sure he's OK. Ensure him that you are working with your dog and it won't happen again. Lecturing him on proper dog etiquette is not something I'd recommend. It doesn't sound like he was being super dumb, just reaching out to say hi to his friend's dog. I expect this from people- hence I keep my more reactive dog(s) at a safe distance and or in a very tight heel on the opposite side of the person I'm chatting with or greeting. 

I think you can still hike with your dog, just foresee potential problems and be prepared to avoid any issues. Especially if you see a friend who wants to chat. 

But, like a previous poster said, unless you change what you're doing it will happen again, so takes steps to make sure this never happens again.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

What would it seem to you, or, how would you interpret the picture if it wasn't the man you know, but some stranger? That man was tall, he said "Hi" , and stretched his hand towards you. In isolated area? Your dog simply deflected the attack. He was protecting you, and he wasn't overeactive. He did right thing, because it could have been a different place, different time of the day, and a different man, stretching forward not a friendly hand but a gun.
One thing is wrong - your dog shouldn't act on his own initiative, he must come closer to you, and wait for your command in any circumstance. You should train him for this (though training is long and difficult), but, that would be the shortest and sure method to stop further incidents occuring.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The dog wasn't protecting his human, he was protecting himself - HE felt threatened by the advancing hand. It was an over-reaction, and not an appropriate one at that. 

No way, no how, would I protection train a dog that bites at casual strangers or friends that happen to make an unexpected move. Life is full of unexpected, but harmless, situations: a protection dog needs to be solid and confident enough to go with the flow in those situations.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> No way, no how, would I protection train a dog that bites at casual strangers or friends that happen to make an unexpected move.


If you'd have known how many people started Schutzhund training exactly because such incident occured! Before then they were unsure about money spending, their ime avilability, or their dog drives. I am one of them. When I waited for my friend at the post office my prvious GSD Ella grabbed a passing by neighbor, made holes in his arm and ripped his sleeve into shreads, she was on the leash. She was only 7 months old, and she had never learned this before. I started training her immediately, because I knew where could I have ended and how much it costs, saying nothing about the threats our neighbour threw at me. And, the only thing he wanted - to tap me on my shoulder to draw my attention.
When you start training your dog protection - you become a different person (others wouldn;t let me to lie),who is aware about started process. Your club wouldn't allow you to forget that your dog is in the process of training. You simply start living with it. But, day after day, there would be more confidence, as your dog would show results of Schutzhund obedience training. I have never met a person who regretted that he started it with his dog. Schutzhund trained dogs are safe dogs. But, on eveything there is at least one "but", the training must be complete.


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## JToews (Sep 22, 2012)

Well I'd say we have a pretty clear consensus. And upon reading your replies I have to agree its 100% on me. But **** - I did not see it (the bite) coming!

Huge thanks for all your perspectives. 

Cassidy's Mom - good summary and advise on avoiding the blame game. 

Muskeg - I appreciate your recommendations and will move to a right side heal. He was on my left when it happened. 

In reflection, over the last 6 months he has become very territorial and barks aggressively at strangers who come to the door. We've been working with a trainer for the last three months to help in this area, but never a bite or anything close. We are committed to positive training methods. He's been ours from 9 weeks old and never been hit. We adore him completely. 

That said, at 16 months he was left for a week with a local trainer-breeder while we were out of town. When we returned and picked him up, his collar and leash were missing (no explanation) and his behavior was oddly numb and cautious. Our current trainer later said this particular trainer-breeder was notorious for abusing dogs and suspects it likely occurred with Toews. In the absence of proof I have resisted the urge to confront the guy. 

Any thoughts on neutering as an appropriate anti-aggression measure? To this point, and having read many threads on the subject we've elected to leave him intact. This incident could change that however. 

Again - much thanks to all.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

One more thing: there's a difference between people who brought elite pedigree pups wanting finally to win titles and those who want their dogs for themselves only. In both cases the result should be positive, normally the trainers are keen on working with those who have a goal. Sem-trained dogs belong to those who never had them.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Muskeg said:


> One thing you can train is for the dog to heel at your right.


That's a good idea, but you can also just change which side of the trail you're on as people approach. I have my dogs on my left when we hike at the lake and am usually on the right side of the path/trail. People are passing next to my dogs, but the paths and trails are 7 or 8 feet wide, so there's plenty of room. Often, if I see a family with small children ahead, I'll move to the left of the trail, so they'll pass on my right rather than next to my dog. The dogs would be fine, but I try to be sensitive to parents who may not want their children that close to a big dog. If there are a lot of people, like a group including a couple of toddlers and a stroller or two, I'll even step to the far side of the path and put my dog in a down so they have plenty of room to pass.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

my opinion is neutering may help with some of the territorial stuff you are seeing. training will help as well but a good trainer not an abusive one


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I agree with what others have said. The dog should not bite if a person is just reaching to pet. I would much rather the dog step out of the way than react in such a manner. You can't stop people. I have had people try to pet my dogs in passing on trails or on stores or just walking past. They either move away or just keep going forward. 

I had trouble with my puppy and reactivity to dogs. When I cannot see around a corner I have his collar or leash him, and the first sign of a person or dog coming, I step off trail and put myself between him and the approaching strangers. We worked on his recall so if he gets ahead or I see dogs approaching, I can call him back - even if he sees them - and get him off trail. The incidents of him reacting have literally faded to nothing, but it was training and work to get him to this level. And I also do not trust him 100% to not react again some way. 

Definitely get a good trainer involved and work on desensitizing him to strangers being nearby. He needs to trust you will deal with it and he shall be safe.


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## JToews (Sep 22, 2012)

To follow up with those who wisely suggested, I check up on the bite victim, I did so and all is well. He was very understanding and healing up fine. Haven't been on that hiking trail since though. 

Anyone care to weigh in on muzzling their GSDs on walks?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you are concerned about repercussions, I think that you should consider any expenses incurred about this incident your responsibility. 

Otherwise, who is at fault, is not as important as what to do with what has happened. I think that employing an experienced behaviorist who you can trust, that can observe you and your dog, so that you know exactly what you are dealing with, what is the likely cause your dog bit. 

Dogs bite for many reasons, often it is fear-based, sometimes it has to do with a miscommunication about who is or should be in charge. I guess what I am saying is that a dog might not fully trust you in every circumstance, and if that dog has a certain personality, he might make decisions that you will regret, BUT, a change in your leadership can adjust this behavior, while a dog with a bad case of fear-aggressiveness may need total management, with little improvement whatever you do. But understanding why your dog bit can give you the best bet at choosing the proper approach to manage, train, improve the dog. 

The thing is, now you know what your dog is capable of, and likely to do. So, if your dog EVER bites anyone again, there is no cushion there. 
Yes, manage the dog first, so that everyone is safe. 

Work with a behaviorist to determine what is the likliest reason the dog acted the way he did. 

Use this to determine whether your leadership skills can be improved upon.

Increase your training with the dog. The more the dog works with you, the better the bond that will help him trust you and take his cues from your actions. 

Neutering him is not a bad idea.

I wish you luck in this. Your dog is young, and this may be something that can be worked through and managed.


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## JToews (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks selzer, for the advise and perspectives. We have been working with a trainer, with some impressive credentials, and progress is being made. Interestingly, he has never been aggressive with other dogs, at all, and this bite incident was isolated, but as you pointed out, now we know what can happen. 

David Taggart - I'm interested in your experience with Schutzhund training. Toews is very quick to learn. How do you know if the people that offer this training are legit?


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

I am glad to hear that the man is fine. Check in on him again in about a week. Hopefully, no one will talk his ear off on suing you. Just watching Judge Judy, you see people try to turn snip without any blood into a payday. 

But if you are kind to him and maybe buy him dinner or a nice bottle of his favorite drink, he will let it go. You should offer to pay for a tetanus shot. Most people cannot remember the last time they had one.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Not David but -- visit a couple of schutzhund clubs and see which one you like, talk to them about it. There are different philosophies/methods re training. Some use much more compulsion than others. Basically, look around, see what you think check out some of the videos recommended etc.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

JToews said:


> To follow up with those who wisely suggested, I check up on the bite victim, I did so and all is well. He was very understanding and healing up fine. Haven't been on that hiking trail since though.
> 
> Anyone care to weigh in on muzzling their GSDs on walks?


I would, after an unprovoked bite. I wouldn't bother with some cheap nylon crap from PetSmart. Invest in a good quality basket muzzle from Ray Allen, the kind made for K9s.

Of course, continue with obediece training. But, better safe than sorry.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> my opinion is neutering may help with some of the territorial stuff you are seeing. training will help as well but a good trainer not an abusive one


Definitelt neuter & help take that edge off. You don't want to breed a dog who bites for no reason anyway.


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