# 2 week shutdown questions



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

I have a question about the 2 week shutdown I've heard both on here and from Ed Frawley's training dvd's (Leerburg Dog Training | 16,000 pages of dog training information, 300 free dog training streaming videos, free eBooks, podcasts, by Ed Frawley and Michael Ellis). How detrimental is it to have the crate for a new dog in our bedroom (especially if that's where the existing pets already sleep). And is 2 weeks absolutely necessary even if a new dog does not have dominance issues?


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

2 weeks is minimum. it can be longer, but should not be shorter.
put the crate in the living room.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

Bismarck said:


> 2 weeks is minimum. it can be longer, but should not be shorter.
> put the crate in the living room.


Now I need to find a place in the living room - it's a big crate. Any other rooms if I end up not having enough space in there?


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Will it fit in the kitchen?


----------



## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Basically any room except a bedroom - that is prime sleeping real estate, so sleeping in there is a privilege earned.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I can't imagine not putting a new dog in my bedroom. It's very beneficial for the dog to learn about crate training, helps bonding, and you can sleep better. There's a lot of things that Ed says that should just be ignored.


----------



## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Sorry, my bad! I assumed this was an older dog.

For a puppy, absolutely I have them in my room until they can go through the night while holding their bladder. 

For an older dog, they should be fine for the night. If not, then I would put them in my room until I could make sure they were able to hold it through the night, then I would move them into another room.

Also, I know that article was written a long time ago, and I found it didn't touch a whole bunch on making sure your dog received ADEQUATE exercise. Just because he in doing his 2 week boot camp, doesn't mean he gets no exercise. When he goes into the crate he should be tired.


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

the dog he is talking about is not a puppy. 1 year old female that has been DA with other dogs.

the 2 week shutdown isn't about bonding, it's about resetting the dog, so it can see what happens in the house, how the house is run, who comes and goes.
bonding comes after the dog has earned respect and the ability to move throughout the house freely.
the dog will do just fine out in another room


----------



## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Bismarck said:


> the dog he is talking about is not a puppy. 1 year old female that has been DA with other dogs.
> 
> the 2 week shutdown isn't about bonding, it's about resetting the dog, so it can see what happens in the house, how the house is run, who comes and goes.
> bonding comes after the dog has earned respect and the ability to move throughout the house freely.
> the dog will do just fine out in another room


Well if this is the case, I agree with you.

The only bonding that occurs is during training time, potty breaks and exercise time. When the dog is not doing one of these three, its in the crate. I agree that the dog has to earn free range of the house, but this also will help with DA, though not directly.

When you control all the resources of your dog (food, water, traveling rights, den, social time) you set a standard that you can freely give and take away. You later translate this into earning privileges. Now I don't starve or dehydrate a dog, but I decide when and how these resources will be given.

For a dog with any aggression, them knowing that you are the controller of all can be a big help in the training area.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I would never do this shutdown thing for any dog. It's another gimmick that's hard on you and the dog and doesn't make much sense. Getting real help with training and how to improve your relationship with her is a much better idea. I would still crate her in my bedroom.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

N Smith said:


> Sorry, my bad! I assumed this was an older dog.


She's 5 years old. So if bonding isn't a major issue, then I can go with the living room for now. I also read this excerpt:

"When I bring a new adult into our home, I socially isolate the dog for a period of time. With some dogs this may only be for 3 or 4 days. With dominant dogs it can be weeks. Social isolation means that I take care of the dog's basic needs: feeding, water, walking and providing a clean place to sleep, but nothing else. I don’t pet the dog, I don’t play with the dog, I don’t talk sweet to the dog. I act like it is not there. I act aloof to the dog.
During this social isolation period the only time the dog is out of the crate while in the house is when it is on its way outside."


So if the dog isn't dominant, would it be acceptable to just limit it in the crate to the time taken for it to heal from being spayed (which is about 7 days or so from the time I get her)?" And what behaviors would I need to look for while taking her home that could indicate dominance? She appeared to be more submissive than Elsa during the initial meet and greet, which also lasted longer.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

Bismarck said:


> the dog he is talking about is not a puppy. 1 year old female that has been DA with other dogs.


No, she's gone. After she bit my friend's dog, almost bit my neighbor's dog (while both were leashed) and tried to bite Aero, I made my final decision. She was too much of a liability.



Bismarck said:


> the 2 week shutdown isn't about bonding, it's about resetting the dog, so it can see what happens in the house, how the house is run, who comes and goes.
> bonding comes after the dog has earned respect and the ability to move throughout the house freely.
> the dog will do just fine out in another room


Will this also help with cat issues? I have no idea if the new girl is okay with cats, but Sylvester is pretty confident and seems to know when a dog is or is not a threat to him.


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

look... i'm not sure what you have against the shutdown.

it's not difficult, and it lets the dog adjust to your environment. having a cat may extend that 2 weeks into a month or more. it's all dependent on the dogs actions.

the dog can be out with you on a leash, but zero "free" time. it's either with you on a leash, going potty, walking around the house to stretch legs or in the crate.
the majority of the time will be in the crate.

treat the dog as if it belongs to your neighbors, who have suddenly gone on vacation, and asked you to watch the dog. You don't like this dog, but don't want to tick off your neighbors. So minimal attention should be given to the dog so it can adjust to the new environment. you don't want to stress the dog with all this new stuff, and it has no idea how things are supposed to run in your house.
give it time to observe, relax, and see how all the animals in your house interact.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This is the actual write up I give people who adopt dogs from us. The more "issues" a dog has, the more this can help.


"I introduced her to 15 people" " he was a bit leery but seems to like my other 3 dogs" 
"she went everywhere with me " 
All in the first few days of the new home..... (!!!) 

Two weeks later we read 
“I think we will have to rehome the new dog" "the new dog barked and nipped at my kid" 
"we had a dog fight"

Ok, folks, here it comes; some feel this is extreme, why? I really do not know. 
But when bringing in a new dog, post finding, adoption, buying, etc, Give it time to adjust to you 
your family and the dogs in the new environment. 

TWO WEEKS - "shut down" 
For the first two weeks, (sometimes even longer) a dog takes in the new environment, who is the top 
persons, dogs, who ARE these people! By pushing a dog too fast and throwing too much at the dog we look like we are not the leaders and the dog can feel it MUST defend itself, as the leader is surely 
no one he has met so far! 
We coo, coddle, drag the dog to home to home to person to person, and the dog has NO idea who 
we are. 
As member Maryellen here said, "This is the dating period NOT the honeymoon" 
When you first met your "mate”, you were on your best behavior, you were not relaxed enough to be 
all of yourself, were you? Just think of the things you do physically once you get to KNOW a person, 
you wouldn’t run up to a stranger and hug them and squeeze them! 
Imagine, if on the first date, this new person, was all over you touching you and having their friends hug you 
and pat you on the head, and jostle your shoulders, then he whisked you off to another stranger’s home and 
they did the same thing. Would you think this person normal and SAFE? Wouldn’t you feel invaded and 
begin to get a bit snarky yourself? Wouldn’t you think to push these people away for obviously your date 
is out of their mind and they aren’t going to save you from these weirdos!! 
Yet we do this to our dogs, and then get upset or worried that they aren’t relaxed and accepting of EVERYTHING 
instantly! 

By shutting down the dog, it gives the dog TIME to see you, meet YOU, hear and take in the new sounds 
and smells of your home. 
I crate the dog in a room by itself if possible.(Believe me, dogs are sensory animals, they know more than you think without seeing it). 
I take it out on a leash (so I don’t have to correct it ..I don’t have that right yet!), I give it exercise time in the yard, 
I do no training at all, just fun exercise and maybe throw some toys for fun, leash the dog if you don’t have a fence outside. But I DO NOT leave my yard, AT ALL. 
No car rides, no other dogs, (unless crated beside them), no pet stores, no WALKS even, nothing but me, my home, my yard. (Unless of course the dog needs to go to the veterinarian) 
Believe me dogs can live two weeks without walks. Walks are stressful for there is so much coming at you! And the new person you have no clue who they are yet. The dog may react to something and we start correcting it with the leash and we just installed a VERY STRESSFUL moment to the dog! 
TEACH the dog by doing the shut down, that YOU are the one to look to, that you are now here for the dog! He can 
trust in you and look to you as its new leader!! 
In the house I have the dog out only for about 20 minutes post exercise/yard times. 
And, ALWAYS on a leash. 
Then PUT THE DOG AWAY. Let it absorb and think. 
I do not introduce the dogs for these two weeks, they can be side by side in the crates, (not nose to nose for they can feel defensive) . Some dogs will bond instantly with the other dogs if we don’t bond FIRST with the dog, and this can lead to some other issues, as the dog will look to the other dog(s) for guidance and not YOU! 

Literally in two weeks you will see a change in the dog and begin to see its honest and true personality. 
Just like a house guest...they are well behaved and literally shut down themselves these first few weeks, then 
post this time, they relax and the true personality begins to shine thru! 


So, please, if nothing else for your new dog, give it the time to LEARN YOU as you are learning who they are! 
This method works on shy dogs, confident dogs, abuse cases, chained dogs that come in, rowdy dogs, all temperaments!

(From PBF’s “luvnfstuff”, revised for spelling errors)


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Now, for an explanation of how I've seen this work. 

The best example is a Rottie girl who was starved, neglected and abused. She was skin and bones when I had to impound her. She was also extremely aggressive/defensive when I picked her up. I had to sedate her to get her out of the car she'd been left in. 
(I was working as an ACO at the time)

I impounded her while she was still sleepy from the drugs, and didn't see her again until the next day. 
When I walked in the shelter, she was out of food, of course, I'd fed her the night before but she'd eaten it by the following day. She jumped up on the kennel door (chain link) as if she was going to eat me alive. Or bite me, at the very least. 

I kind of ignored her, got a scoop of food out and brought it over. FOOD! The magic word for her. She looked mistrustful but allowed me to open her kennel door and put the food in. 

I left, and came back the next day, to do the same again. By day 3, she was happy as a lark to see me, and I let her out of her pen to clean it, etc. By day 4, 5, etc. she was so happy to see me we were now best of friends. 

But the reason she came around so quickly? I was controlling everything. Her space - she was in the kennel/pen, and she couldn't come and go as she pleased. Her water, I gave her more when the bowl got empty. Her food - and that was a big one, beings as she was starved.
The leader controls the resources. Ms. Rottie who would have bitten me upon arrival was now crawling up in my lap to get pets, and attention. 
She still barked like a maniac if anyone else came down, though. 

My point is - during the shut down, a few things happen in the dog's mind.
You are suddenly leader, by default - by controlling resources, etc.
The dog can learn the home and the routine by absorbing in the neutral location that is the crate - it has no choices to make about where it's going to sleep, or even lay down, or where it's going to eat, etc. The choices are made _for_ the dog _by_ you. This is invaluable - no stress at all on the dog. 

Also because the dog has fewer resources (none) there's no guarding, no tiffs between other dog and it. There's also the unspoken fact that the new dog is an "underling" because it has less freedom and more restrictions than the resident dog, although some of our resident dogs still get crated while we're gone. 
The dog can then gradually (after the two weeks) begin to earn those freedoms, and benefits. If it guards things, like a bed spot or couch spot, or a toy, even, it loses that item. 
Our dogs lay on our couch - if they guard that spot they are made to leave it. 

The "shut down" is about rebooting the dog's brain/way of thinking, this is integral when a dog comes from an extended stay in a shelter or even rescue, because of all the stress on the dog. You can visibly see the stress and worry melt away when you do the shut down.
I've taken before/after pics of dogs, I'll try to find and post. It's really amazing and it's so very simple I don't know why people balk so about doing it, when you think of all the benefits for the dog _and_ the household. 

See, the last thing you need to do to a dog who just got adopted from a shelter or what-have-you, is add more stress. 
People forget that dogs have hormones and stress hormones just like people do. 
When all that stress is flowing around, you just cannot get through to the "real dog" underneath it all, and there's really no good bonding taking place anyway, so the two weeks gives everyone a chance to relax and get used to each other in the least stressful manner possible.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is it possible a dog doesn't need a shut down period?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

doggiedad said:


> is it possible a dog doesn't need a shut down period?


Some don't, but it never hurts to do a "mini" one, if you are bringing in an adult dog (over 1yr.-18mos) into a multiple, or even a one dog home. Especially when you add a cat to the mix. And a pound dog almost always benefits from one, especially a poorly socialized one, etc. As a rule, the longer in the shelter, the more they need one. 
I've seen over and over and over, some of the newer "start up" rescues getting dogs, going for a walk right away w/their resident dog, or just letting them in the backyard together, and fights, etc. occurring, necessitating a return to the shelter, or a bounced around dog, foster home to foster home, due to not doing a shut-down. 

It's just so simple to do one, and my motto is, prevent issues before they start, rather than going back to fix them when they've already occurred.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

Bismarck said:


> look... i'm not sure what you have against the shutdown.


I have nothing in particular against the concept; it's just that I want to be sure it's not harsh for a family pet, along with making sure I do things right and what deviations are allowed. Remember, although I've owned a GSD for nearly 20 months, I've never done anything like this before, so this is a new concept to me.



Bismarck said:


> it's not difficult, and it lets the dog adjust to your environment. having a cat may extend that 2 weeks into a month or more. it's all dependent on the dogs actions.
> 
> the dog can be out with you on a leash, but zero "free" time. it's either with you on a leash, going potty, walking around the house to stretch legs or in the crate.
> the majority of the time will be in the crate.


As for walks, backyard? I thought of walking along the sidewalk, but I don't want to confuse her either with new sights, sounds and smells.



Bismarck said:


> treat the dog as if it belongs to your neighbors, who have suddenly gone on vacation, and asked you to watch the dog. You don't like this dog, but don't want to tick off your neighbors. So minimal attention should be given to the dog so it can adjust to the new environment. you don't want to stress the dog with all this new stuff, and it has no idea how things are supposed to run in your house.
> give it time to observe, relax, and see how all the animals in your house interact.


So again, no bedroom, because being there is a privilege. So living room or elsewhere is ideal for the crate? I also understand no toys in the crate, or this is okay? How about a beef knuckle bone to chew on?


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Elaine said:


> I would never do this shutdown thing for any dog. It's another gimmick that's hard on you and the dog and doesn't make much sense. Getting real help with training and how to improve your relationship with her is a much better idea. I would still crate her in my bedroom.


Gimmick? That's harsh. Worked *sensationally* in my house. So, I'm a big, big fan when you're bringing in another adult, or near adult into a multi-dog household.

~~

This is a good, solid plan, OP. Sure, you may have to change it up, depending on how it is going and you have to trust your gut to a certain extent.

I brought in a 10 month old wildchild littermate to my other 10 month old -- both males, both intact. The guy I brought in had always been an outside dog and was not even potty trained, much less housetrained in any way. Had I brought him in and immediately given him run of the house, I truly believe it would've been a major disaster. Your situation probably isn't this bizarre, but none the less, there are major benefits to this plan.

The wildchild learned and watched the daily routine. I purposefully did many things right in front of wildchild. He sucked it all in, he watched. He earned his privileges very slowly. 

He went from this: (doggy in corner, under blankie)









To this: (doggy in corner, no blankie, but brother not allowed too close)









To this: 









And this:









Then this, full access, laying there on his own choice: (excuse the crap crate! It was replaced!) (Also note the crate is now pulled way out of the corner.)









And it all led to... this..: (Buddies!)









Sorry to be so pic heavy, I just wanted to show you our timeline of things. 

Just don't move too fast. And really, what IS the harm of trying to work this plan? Nothing can be hurt by trying it. Locate the crate in a fairly busy area, but set away, then slowly move it more into the action area of the house. Of course, you have to exercise the new one A LOT, since they will have quite a bit of crate time, but it is only a week or two. Don't waste that time, though. Work obedience commands in front of the newcomer. Give him something to watch and learn from.

Good luck!!!!!!!


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Now, for an explanation of how I've seen this work.
> ...
> 
> Some don't, but it never hurts to do a "mini" one, if you are bringing in an adult dog (over 1yr.-18mos) into a multiple, or even a one dog home. Especially when you add a cat to the mix. And a pound dog almost always benefits from one, especially a poorly socialized one, etc. As a rule, the longer in the shelter, the more they need one.
> I've seen over and over and over, some of the newer "start up" rescues getting dogs, going for a walk right away w/their resident dog, or just letting them in the backyard together, and fights, etc. occurring, necessitating a return to the shelter, or a bounced around dog, foster home to foster home, due to not doing a shut-down.


Thank you for the explanation. This makes a lot more sense.
Now if I have visitors come to the house, do I just tell them to ignore her while she's in her crate? And as she has no name, do I call her by her name while in the crate? I think I have this all figured out better now.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

chelle said:


> Gimmick? That's harsh. Worked *sensationally* in my house. So, I'm a big, big fan when you're bringing in another adult, or near adult into a multi-dog household.
> 
> ~~
> 
> This is a good, solid plan, OP. Sure, you may have to change it up, depending on how it is going and you have to trust your gut to a certain extent.


Thank you for the photos. If anyone else has photos or stories, they are much appreciated, not necessarily for me, but for others. This all makes a lot more sense now.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The less information to process the better. Your goal is to allow them space to become themselves, without a lot of experiences and information to process. Processing all that info and stimulation delays your bonding process, and believe it or not, dogs bond even more strongly _because_ of the shut down. You become a god in their eyes, because, remember, you are controlling all the resources for her, even her space. 

This foster was a very difficult one - she came from a puppy mill/hoarding situation and out of the 20-30 dogs they did intakes on, she was the only one not aggressive - the rest had to be euthanized due to aggression and extreme fearfulness.

Cammie - we got her from the kill shelter on 4-28-08.
She was under a year -10mos. or so upon intake. She had a facial deformity we did not know if it was injured or she was born like that. 










There is a worried, yet somewhat "blank" expression. 









And Cammie on 6-9-08, we did extend the shut down, since she had a double whammy of being a shelter dog but also a puppy mill background.

She has a happy, easy-going 'smile' on here. MUCH more relaxed.









See how much more expression, and her face is relaxed even though she was avoiding looking at the camera?


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> The less information to process the better. Your goal is to allow them space to become themselves, without a lot of experiences and information to process. Processing all that info and stimulation delays your bonding process, and believe it or not, dogs bond even more strongly _because_ of the shut down. You become a god in their eyes, because, remember, you are controlling all the resources for her, even her space.
> 
> This foster was a very difficult one - she came from a puppy mill/hoarding situation and out of the 20-30 dogs they did intakes on, she was the only one not aggressive - the rest had to be euthanized due to aggression and extreme fearfulness.
> 
> ...


Just from the photos, it looks more like a birth defect. I remember we talked about puppy mills in a speech and debate class. I don't remember if I was assigned a side or if another group discussed it, but I loved the anti group's thoughts. I wonder if criminal punishment would help deter puppy mills. Just out of curiosity, I did a craigslist search on GSD puppies, and it's amazing what you see - $20-200 for AKC puppies, which I'm sure have all kinds of defects, bad temperments, personality disorders, etc. One guy claimed to have the dogs x-rayed and etc, but the photo shows them on a dirt floor with a kennel made from lumber yard scraps. So sad...

So if Greta (I think that'll be her name) seems a little shy yet calm, then 2 weeks should be a good enough adjustment period? Elsa probably needed a month or more, because as sweet as she was, she had issues.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

How old is the new dog??


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> How old is the new dog??


She's about 5yo.


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

the only reason i say to put the crate in the living room, if you watch TV at night, that will give you a chance to relax with her in the room.
hang out on the couch, call your cat over and make sure you give the cat a lot of attention, and note her reactions out of the corner of your eye. 
do some obedience work with your dog during commercials, let her see you interact with your "pack". let her see you are the one that determines everything in your "pack".
this method is tried, many times over. msvette2u volunteers for an animal rescue, and i volunteer for a GSD rescue, and we tell every person to use this method of introducing a dog into your house. 
yeah you can give her toys to chew on, i like the chuckit balls, don't recommend tennis balls. tug rope is a good chewing item also.



> So if Greta (I think that'll be her name) seems a little shy yet calm, then 2 weeks should be a good enough adjustment period? Elsa probably needed a month or more, because as sweet as she was, she had issues.


again, only you will be able to determine that from her reactions to the various stimuli in your house. just take it slow, gradually give her more and more freedoms. after 2 weeks, if you determine she's doing ok, and not overly focusing on your cat, bring her out on a leash more frequently. let her lay on a dog bed next to you while watching tv. 
just make sure when you first introduce the cat, you have a leash on her, for the cats safety. i wouldn't let my foster dog even smell my cat until after 2 months had passed. he would see the cats come out to watch tv with me, and finally he looked at me, got up and walked very slowly over to one of my cats to sniff her, which i allowed.



anyway.... wish you the best of luck!


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

pkhoury said:


> So if the dog isn't dominant, would it be acceptable to just limit it in the crate to the time taken for it to heal from being spayed (which is about 7 days or so from the time I get her)?"


How would you feel 7 days after a total hysterectomy? Easy does it, especially with an older dog.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Some don't, but it never hurts to do a "mini" one, if you are bringing in an adult dog (over 1yr.-18mos) into a multiple, or even a one dog home. Especially when you add a cat to the mix. And a pound dog almost always benefits from one, especially a poorly socialized one, etc. As a rule, the longer in the shelter, the more they need one.
> I've seen over and over and over, some of the newer "start up" rescues getting dogs, going for a walk right away w/their resident dog, or just letting them in the backyard together, and fights, etc. occurring, necessitating a return to the shelter, or a bounced around dog, foster home to foster home, due to not doing a shut-down.
> 
> It's just so simple to do one, and my motto is, prevent issues before they start, rather than going back to fix them when they've already occurred.


I don't think I've ever had to do a two week shut down with a dog, I have done mini shut downs with a couple dogs, but I usually do not have a dog for more then 3 days before I find a home for it. And most to the dogs I end up with are under a year...the hardest one to deal with was the toy poodle-he just did not like dogs and he still doesn't to this day. I have used this type of thing with cats and that is usually about a month. I'm not opposed to using this if needed. Its a safe method


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> How would you feel 7 days after a total hysterectomy? Easy does it, especially with an older dog.



Yep an older dog will probably be in more pain


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

And take way longer than 7 days to be 100%.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> How old is the new dog??


And now here are some pictures I took when I picked her up.
She's very sweet, but I don't think she likes the idea of being in a crate just yet. I'm sure this will subside after a few days.


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

very pretty girl !!


----------



## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I would never do with with any dog. I've never done it and I've had no issues with the dog acclimating to the household. I don't crate train either. Not saying it's a bad thing, but not always the only option.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> I would never do with with any dog. I've never done it and I've had no issues with the dog acclimating to the household. I don't crate train either. Not saying it's a bad thing, but not always the only option.


Part of me still agrees, although I still like what I read on the whole idea in this thread. I think I will deviate only to the point of keeping her in the crate until she gets her stitches removed, which will be about 12 days (2 days shy of 2 weeks).

She saw Sylvester on the way inside the house (he came outside to greet me while I was setting up the crate) and she barely even glanced at him and followed me on leash. Elsa I couldn't trust off leash with Sylvester, but I honestly think I could trust Greta with Sylvester no problem, which says a lot for a new GSD.


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

pkhoury said:


> She saw Sylvester on the way inside the house (he came outside to greet me while I was setting up the crate) and she barely even glanced at him and followed me on leash. Elsa I couldn't trust off leash with Sylvester, but I honestly think I could trust Greta with Sylvester no problem, which says a lot for a new GSD.


Was at Falko's oncologist's today, they have an ER there. A woman brought in a 16 year old cat that could not close her mouth. Seems that the family GSD that was raised with the cat and gently plays with her mouthed the cat's head. She broke her jaw. Poor kitty. And I sure don't want to have that vet bill.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

pkhoury said:


> Part of me still agrees, although I still like what I read on the whole idea in this thread. I think I will deviate only to the point of keeping her in the crate until she gets her stitches removed, which will be about 12 days (2 days shy of 2 weeks).
> 
> She saw Sylvester on the way inside the house (he came outside to greet me while I was setting up the crate) and she barely even glanced at him and followed me on leash. Elsa I couldn't trust off leash with Sylvester, but I honestly think I could trust Greta with Sylvester no problem, which says a lot for a new GSD.


Think about it this way -- what can it hurt? Nothing. During the shutdown time, we were slowly working on socializing the two brothers. I called in a trainer to help me and we worked thru fences and such. She gave me advice and ideas as well. Her advice was to *not* move too fast with the (then) intact male brothers. She took a cautious approach and I felt more comfortable with that. The second week of the shutdown, Tucker was neutered, so needed to be kept calm anyway. The timing worked out very well -- by the time the shutdown business was over, he was well-healed.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

chelle said:


> Think about it this way -- what can it hurt? Nothing. During the shutdown time, we were slowly working on socializing the two brothers. I called in a trainer to help me and we worked thru fences and such. She gave me advice and ideas as well. Her advice was to *not* move too fast with the (then) intact male brothers. She took a cautious approach and I felt more comfortable with that. The second week of the shutdown, Tucker was neutered, so needed to be kept calm anyway. The timing worked out very well -- by the time the shutdown business was over, he was well-healed.


So I can use that as down time for her to heal from being spayed.

As for exercise - walking in my backyard is kinda boring, and I'm honestly not wild about letting her do it on leash either. Is it a bad idea to walk her once around the block, thanks to all the new smells? Or just let her roam around in the backyard? One thing's for sure - she's not the monster Elsa was.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Backyard. That's one of the more important parts, to me, of the shutdown, keeping them from being overwhelmed. Not saying a walk will overwheml a normal dog, but I just want them to relax, watch, enjoy being safe and get used to the loon (me)!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

vicky2200 said:


> I would never do with with any dog. I've never done it and I've had no issues with the dog acclimating to the household. I don't crate train either. Not saying it's a bad thing, but not always the only option.


Just for anyone reading this thread, people who have done it and are doing this are not doing it to freak the dog out by being isolated, and the level of separation certainly varies depending on the person who is doing it. This is done so that the dog can relax and learn without stress, the ins and outs of the home that they are newly entering. So that they are not subjected to people or other animals before their threshold is known. 

Three of the people responding are active in rescue so bring dogs in and out on a regular basis (and not always pet type dogs), and then recommend this to adopters, and another has recently gone through this, bringing an untrained dog into a bonded pack. 

As far as crating, it is my responsibility to teach each dog I foster that a crate is a good and happy place - so that if they have to have a surgery, get boarded, or go to a home w/multiple pets where it is unsafe to have everyone out while no one is home during the day (read something like Leerburg dog packs stuff for an "oh, hello, they are animals" aha moment) - they are not upset or agitated by this.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

pkhoury said:


> So I can use that as down time for her to heal from being spayed.
> 
> As for exercise - walking in my backyard is kinda boring, and I'm honestly not wild about letting her do it on leash either. Is it a bad idea to walk her once around the block, thanks to all the new smells? Or just let her roam around in the backyard? One thing's for sure - she's not the monster Elsa was.


I did use that time for the healing. I will admit, I did buy some "calming" pills from Petco during that time. I was very concerned about him causing harm to himself. (He wore the cone of shame the entire ten days.) The boys had not been allowed together yet, so I was still exercising them seperately. Tucker's "exercise" consisted of easy walks around the yard with me. No running or jumping of any kind, just easy walks. This was simple enough, because he wanted to follow me around anywhere I went. I did not take him off property at this time. I wanted him to learn his new yard. He liked to smell the other doggy scents in the yard, and I think that helped, too. 

I can't say if it is a good idea to walk the block or not. I can say I didn't. I wanted him to learn this was his new home and wanted that to be his sole "focus." Now, I could be completely wrong in how I went about things - but I wanted him to only know his new house, his new yard, his new pack-mates, his new human and nothing else.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

So I admit I cheated a little on the shutdown and petted/groomed her (she had a lot more undercoat that came out than Aero, who gets brushed/bathed once a week) and I'm glad I did - I found 3 ticks, one which had a fairly full sack. Anything else I should be worried about? Didn't find any on Aero (he only had a flea problem until I put him on Comfortis, which works wonders for him).

Back to relating to this thread, I found this excerpt on leerburg.com (http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm):

"THE FIRST WEEKS When I bring a new adult into our home, I socially isolate the dog for a period of time. With some dogs this may only be for 3 or 4 days. With dominant dogs it can be weeks."

Greta has zero problems with both Aero and Sylvester, and doesn't seem to display any dominance issues (yet). Add to the fact that Sylvester came right up to her and she didn't really care. What got her attention were the three squirrels that almost came into the backyard (Aero went bonkers). Anyways, I'm thinking of stopping her social isolation on Sunday afternoon.

I think her biggest issue will be learning all her basic commands, which she doesn't really seem to know, but I feel she has a ton of potential.


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

she's your dog. we can't tell you what to do, but we did give you the best recommendation.
i hope you don't have any other issues down the road, that the shutdown would have helped prevent.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Bismarck said:


> she's your dog. we can't tell you what to do, but we did give you the best recommendation.
> *i hope you don't have any other issues down the road, that the shutdown would have helped prevent.*


And another failed adoption, but like Biz says, it's your dog.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> And another failed adoption, but like Biz says, it's your dog.


Well she's still in her crate, so she's not free roaming. But I do think it was important to find and kill those ticks, don't you agree?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There's nothing in the two week shut down that says you cannot pet, pat or brush the dog or perform basic care.
I'm not sure where you got that idea, unless it's from the Frawley thing (which sounds more 'harsh' than the one we use here, btw).
In the two week shut down we did w/our adopted dog, he went across the road with us (away from the other dogs) and I threw toys for him, for exercise, and we brushed and petted, etc. just like any other dog.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> There's nothing in the two week shut down that says you cannot pet, pat or brush the dog or perform basic care.
> I'm not sure where you got that idea, unless it's from the Frawley thing (which sounds more 'harsh' than the one we use here, btw).
> In the two week shut down we did w/our adopted dog, he went across the road with us (away from the other dogs) and I threw toys for him, for exercise, and we brushed and petted, etc. just like any other dog.


Ha, now I'm really confused. So the 2 week deal is not at all related to Frawley's 2 week shutdown? I understand the point of being aloof, but it's very difficult to 100% ignore the dog.

So basic grooming (until she has her stitches removed) and petting are okay; she just needs to spend most of her time in the crate, right?


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

pkhoury said:


> Ha, now I'm really confused. So the 2 week deal is not at all related to Frawley's 2 week shutdown? I understand the point of being aloof, but it's very difficult to 100% ignore the dog.
> 
> So basic grooming (until she has her stitches removed) and petting are okay; she just needs to spend most of her time in the crate, right?


i've never read frawley's 2 week shutdown, so it's hard for me to say.
you don't 100% ignore the dog, but there's no coddling, snuggling etc..
do what needs to be done, daily grooming should be performed, just be cautious, as some dogs don't like certain areas touched, and can nip/bite.

she doesn't have to be in the crate 100% of the time either, you can attach her to you via a leash and do your daily stuff, drag her around with you so she can watch, stretch, and check out what you do.
when she's not tied to you via leash, she should be in her crate though.

*edit*
if you want you can play with her for a bit inside the house, as long as your dog is off somewhere else (IMO).
this should be you and her time, heck you could even swap dogs in the crate (that's what i did, i'd put my dog in his crate, then take out the foster dog and play with him for a bit)

*edit x2*
you can hand feed her outside the crate if you want, just make sure your dog knows the rules.
his food, is his food.
her food, is hers.
there is no, "lemme just see what you got there".
i never allow my dog or my foster dog to go see what the other is eating. biz is fed in the kitchen, and del is fed in his crate. for almost 2 years now he eats in his crate. he likes it. that's his spot.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

Bismarck said:


> i've never read frawley's 2 week shutdown, so it's hard for me to say.
> you don't 100% ignore the dog, but there's no coddling, snuggling etc..
> do what needs to be done, daily grooming should be performed, just be cautious, as some dogs don't like certain areas touched, and can nip/bite.


I'm fortunate and haven't had this problem yet with Greta. I have on Aero on his leg with hip dysplasia, but I've learned what not to do.



Bismarck said:


> she doesn't have to be in the crate 100% of the time either, you can attach her to you via a leash and do your daily stuff, drag her around with you so she can watch, stretch, and check out what you do.
> when she's not tied to you via leash, she should be in her crate though.


Outside too when she's going potty?



Bismarck said:


> *edit*
> if you want you can play with her for a bit inside the house, as long as your dog is off somewhere else (IMO).
> this should be you and her time, heck you could even swap dogs in the crate (that's what i did, i'd put my dog in his crate, then take out the foster dog and play with him for a bit)


Honestly, I'd feel strange doing that to Aero, plus the fact that he's never had a crate. I did have some alone time with her, and for the most part, Aero let us be. No growling or anything inerrant behavior (which he doesn't do anyways)



Bismarck said:


> *edit x2*
> you can hand feed her outside the crate if you want, just make sure your dog knows the rules.
> his food, is his food.
> her food, is hers.
> ...


I haven't figured out what I'm going to do yet when they're fed outside the crate after the 2 week-ish period. If I do end up doing the full time, I'll probably conclude the shutdown when she gets her stitches out (12 days, which is close enough). I do have individual bowls for all the pets, although water bowls are community bowls (I have 3, because big dogs drink a lot).

So yeah, this is totally different than Frawley's technique. He agrees with feeding inside the crate, but says you're 100% aloof to the dog. You just take him/her out to go potty or do a walk, and then the rest of the day is in the crate - 3-4 days, but most dominant/aggressive dogs are 2-4 weeks.


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

yes, outside to go potty on a leash.

crate training your dogs is one thing i highly recommend. it's "their" place, where i don't allow any interaction with the dog (unless life threatening). if they want to get away from me, they go in the crate, it's their "den".

i don't have to worry, as one dog is always fed in the crate and one in his regular place. both dogs have crates in the living room. it looks terrible, but i honestly don't care, those are their homes and if anyone doesn't like it, i'll show them the door.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> is it possible a dog doesn't need a shut down period?


Absolutely! Probably a million and one that don't..


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Bismarck said:


> she's your dog. we can't tell you what to do, but we did give you the best recommendation.
> i hope you don't have any other issues down the road, that the shutdown would have helped prevent.


Whoa, this and the "failed adopting" thing are some kind of weird passive aggressive emotional blackmail stuff. What the heck?????? This is as bad as Frawley saying that all new dogs should be isolated and denied interaction for 2 weeks or they will take over your household and dominate everyone in their path. 

Guess what? I have had dogs for 25 years. They have all been adopted. I have also fostered and done long term care (a month or more) for lots of dogs. I have taken in dogs with serious medical issues and I have also taken in dogs with mild to serious behavioral issues. Crate training is a great tool and normally I crate and tether a new dog to me for the first week or so until they get the hang of things. Some dogs may always have to managed like this around cats or kids or whatever. Some dogs need time to observe a new household and other dogs settle right in without issues. It depends on the individual dog.  

Not doing the 2 week shutdown is not necessarily going to prevent any issues. In fact, I'm sure that it's entirely possible that for some dogs, it could potentially cause issues. Not doing it certainly isn't going to cause your dog to kill your cat. 

And I would never, ever, ever deny a living being basic human contact and positive interactions. After all, the most important thing is that your new dog bond with you and trust you so that you can show her that you are a kind, fair, fun and consistent leader.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> And I would never, ever, ever deny a living being basic human contact and positive interactions.


Neither would, or have we. 
If you read the "two week shut down", nowhere on there does it say "don't touch the dog". 
In fact it's fine to interact with the dog, but you're not letting it run loose in the house, get on the couch, make it's "own decisions" until later on in your home.
The point is to get the dog to realize _who is in charge. _
That's really all there is to it.
So many owners come on here w/newly adopted dogs, that were "fine for a week" and now are bonkers in the house (and at risk for being given back to the shelter/rescue), if we can prevent one failed adoption with this recommendation, I'm happy.


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)




----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

I have a new issue with Greta. It might belong in a different thread but anyways...

I'm supposed to give her antibiotics for a week (Keflex, 750mg 2x/day). Anyways, I wrap it with ground beef. She snatches it and bites as if it were the last supper. Aero can eat out of my hand without wanting to bite it off. She also still seems skittish, but otherwise gets along well with the household when she's out of the crate and on-leash.

I'm starting to wonder if she spent her whole life as a stray, and if so, can she be brought back to "domestication", where she acts almost as normal as Aero?

But back to being on topic, she will go into her crate on her own now, and will even stay there while I unhook the leash. And when she watches TV with me, she just lays on the floor (with the cat and dog within 5 feet).


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I have to admit that the "Two Week Shutdown" thing with all it's dominance and earning rights stuff kinda makes me  That is rather old school thinking on dog behavior.

That said, it's always good to take things slow with new adult dogs that you don't know. I agree a lot of people overwhelm their new dog, who is likely already stressed out. And they put them into situations with other people or animals and assume all will be well before they know anything about the dog. Give them their own space either through crating, expen or gating them into a room or hallway. Take introductions to other pets slow, keep it brief and positive at first. But absolutely begin building a relationship with the dog too, one on one. Hand feed meals, begin teaching easy behaviors for food (can be combined with the hand feeding), see what games the dog might like to play, etc. This will help your dog bond to you, develop trust and learn how to learn. 

I think things like NILIF and this "Shutdown" work more because you are controlling resources so carefully than due to any sort of "now the dog sees you as the boss" sort of thing. Dogs do what works and by limiting your dog's access to getting reinforcement on their own, it is easier to for the behaviors you want to be what works. If you start off with a new dog by limiting their ability to self reinforce for all those behaviors you don't like (getting on furniture, getting into garbage, barking at passer-bys, chewing up your stuff, attention seeking behaviors, etc), it is much easier for good behavior to become the way of life. The new dog sees what works in their new situation and accepts it. It is certainly possible to use these methods to change an established dog's behavior, it just takes longer because the dog has a long reinforcement history for the behaviors you don't like.



pkhoury said:


> I'm supposed to give her antibiotics for a week (Keflex, 750mg 2x/day). Anyways, I wrap it with ground beef. She snatches it and bites as if it were the last supper. Aero can eat out of my hand without wanting to bite it off. She also still seems skittish, but otherwise gets along well with the household when she's out of the crate and on-leash.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if she spent her whole life as a stray, and if so, can she be brought back to "domestication", where she acts almost as normal as Aero?


 I very, very much doubt this dog was a stray for her whole life. She sounds like a fairly normal dog from what you have said. For even well loved pets, being a stray for any length of time can alter their behaviors - make them more flighty, more possessive of food, etc. But they are still very much domesticated dogs, no where near what a feral (born to strays, never lived with humans) adult dog would be. And of course, there is every chance that being overexcited by food and skittish are just part of her normal temperament. Lots of dogs who have lived nothing but a great life are still genetically fearful, nervous dogs. And my Jora was food obsessed her entire life. She never really learned to take treats nicely, would gorge herself on large amount of food if given half a chance and seemed always hungry. I knew her from the day she was born and she was always well cared for. Her food obsession made her extremely easy to train


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

pkhoury said:


> I have a new issue with Greta. It might belong in a different thread but anyways...
> 
> I'm supposed to give her antibiotics for a week (Keflex, 750mg 2x/day). Anyways, I wrap it with ground beef. She snatches it and bites as if it were the last supper. Aero can eat out of my hand without wanting to bite it off.



Take the food and put it in your hand and make a fist...let the dog smell it, tell the dog to wait, as soon as the dog pulls its nose away, open your hand and say take it...you can practice this with any treat/toy and eventually the dog will get the hang of it


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I have to admit that the "Two Week Shutdown" thing with all it's dominance and earning rights stuff kinda makes me That is rather old school thinking on dog behavior.


The "two week shut down" we advocate has nothing to do w/"dominance" per se. We don't care if a dog is what people think of as dominate or whatever, we just do the shut down. I've seen aggressive dogs, due to fear (usually) or whatever, come around quickly by doing this. I don't know the whys so much, but I do know it works.



> That said, it's always good to take things slow with new adult dogs that you don't know. I agree a lot of people overwhelm their new dog, who is likely already stressed out. And they put them into situations with other people or animals and assume all will be well before they know anything about the dog. Give them their own space either through crating, expen or gating them into a room or hallway. Take introductions to other pets slow, keep it brief and positive at first. But absolutely begin building a relationship with the dog too, one on one. Hand feed meals, begin teaching easy behaviors for food (can be combined with the hand feeding), see what games the dog might like to play, etc. This will help your dog bond to you, develop trust and learn how to learn.


This is exactly what the "shut down" entails. NILIF and "Mind Games" also implement these techniques. 
We call it being a _leader_ for your dog.



> Dogs do what works and by limiting your dog's access to getting reinforcement on their own, it is easier to for the behaviors you want to be what works. If you start off with a new dog by limiting their ability to self reinforce for all those behaviors you don't like (getting on furniture, getting into garbage, barking at passer-bys, chewing up your stuff, attention seeking behaviors, etc), it is much easier for good behavior to become the way of life. The new dog sees what works in their new situation and accepts it. It is certainly possible to use these methods to change an established dog's behavior, it just takes longer because the dog has a long reinforcement history for the behaviors you don't like.


Again, taking charge of your newly acquired dog and starting off right, being a good leader, and not letting the dog take control of situations - this is why, when there's 'down time', even, the dog is crated - it makes no choices for itself, we make all the choices.
The dog understands, then, from the beginning, _we are in charge, they are not. _
There's no "alpha" crap going on, it's about being a leader in your home, and showing the dog how to follow.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

llombardo said:


> Take the food and put it in your hand and make a fist...let the dog smell it, tell the dog to wait, as soon as the dog pulls its nose away, open your hand and say take it...you can practice this with any treat/toy and eventually the dog will get the hang of it


You could also use a less high value item to wrap the pills with. We use peanut butter, or dollop of regular canned food on top of their regular food and poke the pill into the middle of the blob of canned food, we don't give dogs pills apart from their food as a rule.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> The dog understands, then, from the beginning, _we are in charge, they are not. _
> There's no "alpha" crap going on, it's about being a leader in your home, and showing the dog how to follow.


 This statement sort of contradicts itself a bit. The idea that the dogs might think they are "in charge" and "the leader" of the household is very much the old dominance/alpha theory with different phrasing.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

That's the terminology that exists. How would you define it, or what would you call it?

Controlling the resources is being leader, or whatever you want to call it. Controlling all the resources is the "alpha" or "leaders" job and privilege. I don't care about the terminology.


----------



## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

Does the two week shutdown apply to new dogs entering a house with other dogs? Or can it also just apply to new dogs moving to a new home?


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

is your dog currently crate trained?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I believe it has to do more with the dog-owner relationship than the dog-environment one.
Due to your situation, I'd recommend crating at all times when the dogs are not supervised however, even if that means getting in the shower, at least at first.
Crating helps with the housebreaking issue as well as any destructive behavior like chewing on things.


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> I believe it has to do more with the dog-owner relationship than the dog-environment one.
> Due to your situation, I'd recommend crating at all times when the dogs are not supervised however, even if that means getting in the shower, at least at first.
> Crating helps with the housebreaking issue as well as any destructive behavior like chewing on things.


my thoughts were, if the dog is currently crate trained, it already knows the crate is his/her "safe" place. it would help with the transition if the dog was feeling insecure in surroundings, to have a known "good and happy" place for it to retreat too.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> You could also use a less high value item to wrap the pills with. We use peanut butter, or dollop of regular canned food on top of their regular food and poke the pill into the middle of the blob of canned food, we don't give dogs pills apart from their food as a rule.


I don't know if I've ever tried peanut butter yet. I think I tried once with Aero, who wasn't interested really. The ground beef was about $1.49/lb
(markdowns from a local grocery store if it didn't sell that day), and I want to get her used to raw food (as both Sylvester and Aero get raw stuff on a regular basis).


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> That's the terminology that exists. How would you define it, or what would you call it?
> 
> Controlling the resources is being leader, or whatever you want to call it. Controlling all the resources is the "alpha" or "leaders" job and privilege. I don't care about the terminology.


 Controlling the resources and using reinforcement is good training. The terminology matters because it affects how the owner interacts with their dog. If you believe that your dog is just waiting to be able to take over the house, that they have to learn that you are in charge and they are not _or else_ your relationship will likely be different than if you have a different mindset about your dog's behavior.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The terminology means little, in my book. I subscribe to the NILIF and "Mind Games" because the attitude is that we're the leaders, and we guide our dogs and show them how to behave.

I am careful when working with adopters, to not use "alpha" and other outdated terms, but we instruct adopters the same way (NILIF, Mind Games, two week shut down type things).
If you want to attach negative meanings to words, that is fine, but it doesn't mean much to me, it's just a way of saying we're the leaders in our home. We set our dogs up to be successful, not to fail.

I really think that's material for another thread, if you want to define terms and assign special meanings to them.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

So back to Greta - she doesn't seem to have any dominance issues that I've seen. In fact, I haven't heard her growl when anyone gets close to the food bowl, she has zero problems with the cat (who walks right up to her), and she seems more skittish than anything. For instance, if I tell her "Greta, come here", she wants to go back to the crate or to Aero's bed (of which Aero doesn't care; sometimes Sylvester takes it over). She does know her name and seems to like me, but if I have food in my hand, she seems to want to cower back to her crate or the dog bed.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> The terminology means little, in my book. I subscribe to the NILIF and "Mind Games" because the attitude is that we're the leaders, and we guide our dogs and show them how to behave.
> 
> I am careful when working with adopters, to not use "alpha" and other outdated terms, but we instruct adopters the same way (NILIF, Mind Games, two week shut down type things).
> If you want to attach negative meanings to words, that is fine, but it doesn't mean much to me, it's just a way of saying we're the leaders in our home. We set our dogs up to be successful, not to fail.
> ...


 Not applying any special meaning to anything, just commenting based on what has been said in this thread. The tone seems to be that if you don't do this "shutdown" you are almost sure to fail with your new dog, your new dog and other pets won't get along (your new dog may even kill your cat) and your new dog won't know you are in charge and "the leader".


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes many adoptions fail which may have been saved by a "two week shut down" period.
I think of it as getting off on the right paw, so to speak.
As for cat issues, they may or may not be prevented by the 2 week period - but if an adopter does the two week period, at the minimum, at least they know they've tried and if things still fail, they can bring the dog back after having given it a fair shake.


----------



## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

AgileGSD said:


> This statement sort of contradicts itself a bit. The idea that the dogs might think they are "in charge" and "the leader" of the household is very much the old dominance/alpha theory with different phrasing.


I think you are confusing the old theory that you should physically dominate your dog to show them that you are alpha with the idea that dogs require leadership and that within a pack of dogs their is a hierarchy and therefore a leader. Which you could technically call the dominant one. 

Maybe you don't believe in a hierarchy at all? I think some people have gone so far the other way in revulsion of the old school dominance type of thinking that they don't even believe that dogs have hierarchies. And when they see words like dominant being thrown around they don't realize that it is just a term.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Clyde said:


> I think you are confusing the old theory that you should physically dominate your dog to show them that you are alpha with the idea that dogs require leadership and that within a pack of dogs their is a hierarchy and therefore a leader. Which you could technically call the dominant one.


 I'm not confusing the terms at all. For me though, looking at your relationship with your dog as being one where there is a struggle over who is going to be "the boss" can be damaging. Even without using physical means of "domination". 



Clyde said:


> Maybe you don't believe in a hierarchy at all? I think some people have gone so far the other way in revulsion of the old school dominance type of thinking that they don't even believe that dogs have hierarchies. And when they see words like dominant being thrown around they don't realize that it is just a term.


 TBH I don't really ever think about or worry if my dog is seeing me as their leader or not. i worry about building a good relationship with them and that they see me as fun to play with and work for. Things that are important to me behavior wise, I either train/manage for or against depending on the situation but it doesn't really have anything to do with "being the boss". Pretty sure my dogs know I'm not a dog  And good training means they know I'm worth listening to.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

So after the shutdown, how difficult would it be to teach commands to a dog that was most likely chained to a tree in the backyard and never brought inside the house? Training with food seems to be out of the question - Greta runs off if I tell her to sit when I have a treat. And the sight of a leash is enough to drive her back into her crate.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Greta runs off if I tell her to sit when I have a treat. And the sight of a leash is enough to drive her back into her crate.


You can't walk her on a leash at _all_?
Quite honestly, even if they've not been exposed to a leash, they get leash 101 here. The reason is...you need to still control your dog's space. It goes back to not allowing them to make "bad choices" by taking the choice away from them.

Was this dog abused? Severely neglected?

For instance - we just got a Dachshund in that has a bad habit of skittering away from people when they try to make contact with her or pick her up. 
Now - there's many reasons why she might do this, but none of those really matter to me.
What matters is she's going to be a poor adoption candidate like this so we need to get her used to coming or at least standing still and not running away when people reach for her.
So she's only out of her crate on a leash. And she'll be worked with on a leash, and when she's out we'll try the game where everyone sits in a circle with the dog and random people call her to them, and each and every time she goes to whomever, she gets a treat (something yummy and irresistible). 

That's my game plan for now.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

pkhoury said:


> So after the shutdown, how difficult would it be to teach commands to a dog that was most likely chained to a tree in the backyard and never brought inside the house? Training with food seems to be out of the question - Greta runs off if I tell her to sit when I have a treat. And the sight of a leash is enough to drive her back into her crate.


My pup I recently got from the animal shelter had some colar/leash issues. I found a harness worked wonders. It wasn't around his head or neck. slowly got him used to a collar and touching around the neck and now he is fine either way.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

AgileGSD said:


> I'm not confusing the terms at all. For me though, looking at your relationship with your dog as being one where there is a struggle over who is going to be "the boss" can be damaging. Even without using physical means of "domination".
> 
> 
> 
> TBH I don't really ever think about or worry if my dog is seeing me as their leader or not. i worry about building a good relationship with them and that they see me as fun to play with and work for. Things that are important to me behavior wise, I either train/manage for or against depending on the situation but it doesn't really have anything to do with "being the boss". Pretty sure my dogs know I'm not a dog  And good training means they know I'm worth listening to.


Lucky for you that you have had soft dogs to deal with. How would you go about developing a relationship with a dog that tried to kill you every time you got it out of the crate? What kind of good training would you recommend while it was gnawing on your arm? LOL

Blanket statements about dog training are useless.

BTW, I totally agree that a physical confrontation over who is the boss can be tragically devastating for your relationship with the wrong dog. 99% of pet dogs fall into this category.

To the OP: 
If you have a fearful dog, the necessity to control it's environment is paramount in the dog learning to trust you. Do not expose the dog to any new environmental stimulus until it is comfortable in it's current environment. You have your work cut out for you if she won't even come to you with a treat in your hand. I would tether this dog to me as much as possible and hand feed it all it's meals. There is no need for gushy physical contact with her, it may be stressing her out. Just be calm and give the dog what she needs. She will eventually tell you that she wants affection with a nudge of your hand or rub against your leg, and even then don't force it. 5 year old dogs don't lay around grooming each other for hours because it is not necessary. Tons of physical affection is to satisfy something you need, not the dog.

If she is more comfortable with one of your dogs than you, and your dog is good on leash, you can tether her to the outside of your dog and take them on walks together. Being around a calm dog while walking can help her to settle.

Check out Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Lucky for you that you have had soft dogs to deal with. How would you go about developing a relationship with a dog that tried to kill you every time you got it out of the crate? What kind of good training would you recommend while it was gnawing on your arm? LOL


Don't think most of us would try to develop a relationship with a dog that was trying to kill us. LOL I know I wouldn't.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Don't think most of us would try to develop a relationship with a dog that was trying to kill us. LOL I know I wouldn't.


I understand that wholeheartedly, but some dogs are like that, and some of us do deal with dogs like that on a regular basis. It was just a statement to make it clear that no 2 dogs are the same, and if you think that what works for the 4 biddable dogs you have trained in your lifetime will work for all dogs, you are mistaken. Fearful dogs are the toughest dogs to manage.


And for the record, the best relationship I have ever had with a dog came after she attacked me 4 times. I sometimes forget how sensitive the general public is to dogs biting. Sometimes dogs bite. They bite each other for 6 weeks straight when they are born. They nip and play bite us as they grow until they are taught not to. An adult dog that bites just needs proper training to show it that it doesn't need to bite to alleviate stress, or get what it wants / needs, unless there is an underlying medical issue. It is our job to control the dog's environment to keep others from being bitten. Simple.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

pkhoury said:


> So after the shutdown, how difficult would it be to teach commands to a dog that was most likely chained to a tree in the backyard and never brought inside the house? Training with food seems to be out of the question - Greta runs off if I tell her to sit when I have a treat. And the sight of a leash is enough to drive her back into her crate.


So it seems that this dog has some bad associations with commands, the leash and possibly even food - I am not sure if that's connected or not. 

I would just leave her alone for a while more. Not in isolation terms, but just let her walk around, observe you, create a safe environment where she can come to terms with her new life. 

Knowing this you know that you need to be extra super duper careful when you take her outside. She needs a martingale collar on when you walk her so that she can't back out of it. 

My whole take away, and the part that I like with this shut down is the part about not exposing the dog to more than they are ready for - and sometimes, that even means us! 

You need to use different words for things - no more sit, instead use relax or something like that. You could use carrot, they don't know! But for now, her NILIF behavior for payment might just be the act of taking food from you. 

For the leash, leave it on the floor for now with some treats around it and start there, putting it on her and tethering her to you is like 20 steps ahead of where she's ready for. 

Please join this group: shy-k9s : shy-k9s
They really understand the relationship with a fearful dog.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

David Winners said:


> Lucky for you that you have had soft dogs to deal with.


 Your assumption about what sort of dogs I have had and worked with is not accurate. But then you know what they say about suumptions 



David Winners said:


> How would you go about developing a relationship with a dog that tried to kill you every time you got it out of the crate? What kind of good training would you recommend while it was gnawing on your arm? LOL


 A dog no one can take out of a crate or interact with at all without being attacked? What you are describing sounds like an extremely unstable dog. Unfortunately there are some dogs like that out there but luckily, they are not the norm. I don't consider that a hard dog either, just an unsound one.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

David Winners said:


> I understand that wholeheartedly, but some dogs are like that, and some of us do deal with dogs like that on a regular basis. It was just a statement to make it clear that no 2 dogs are the same, and if you think that what works for the 4 biddable dogs you have trained in your lifetime will work for all dogs, you are mistaken. Fearful dogs are the toughest dogs to manage.
> 
> 
> And for the record, the best relationship I have ever had with a dog came after she attacked me 4 times. I sometimes forget how sensitive the general public is to dogs biting. Sometimes dogs bite. They bite each other for 6 weeks straight when they are born. They nip and play bite us as they grow until they are taught not to. An adult dog that bites just needs proper training to show it that it doesn't need to bite to alleviate stress, or get what it wants / needs, unless there is an underlying medical issue. It is our job to control the dog's environment to keep others from being bitten. Simple.


I wouldn't want to even attept to manage a dog like you describe. Not for me. I've had more than 4 dogs and I've had lots of landsharks but they are not allowed to bite us. :nono:. Puppies chewing is one thing. Redirect with a toy but a full grown dog biting and lunging, I'll leave that to the experts. They don't belong in my house.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I would tether this dog to me as much as possible and hand feed it all it's meals. There is no need for gushy physical contact with her, it may be stressing her out. Just be calm and give the dog what she needs.


This is what I'd recommend too - while leashed to you, you don't soothe or talk to the dog, until he's time to sit and pet her. 
What I mean is...try to be very neutral and not "disciplining" the dog in your tether time, but don't be overly affectionate/kind either. Act like the dog does not exist.

While it's tempting to leave the leash out/off, you will have worse problems if she goes being something and you're left to try to get her out. Chasing a dog that is afraid will only make things worse and escalate the dog's defense mechanism which may go from running away to biting if cornered.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> So it seems that this dog has some bad associations with commands, the leash and possibly even food - I am not sure if that's connected or not.
> 
> I would just leave her alone for a while more. Not in isolation terms, but just let her walk around, observe you, create a safe environment where she can come to terms with her new life.


Much to my dismay, as well as others, she only got a 1 week shutdown. She ended up destroying the crate like Elsa did hers, only it took Greta a lot longer. And yes, I understand there are heavier duty crates out there.

So as far as being in the house, she's good. She's tried to nip at the cat a few times when he gets on the bed, but not every time, and she doesn't really give him a hard time.

So she's good walking around the house with Aero and Sylvester. She's getting slightly better at getting treats, mostly because I wrap her antibiotics in ground beef. When I get the leash out, she's fearful, but if I get near her, she just puts her head down in shame.

My hypothesis (not sure how correct it is) is that she was tethered to a tree or something in someone's backyard, not taught any commands, or if she was, in Spanish or another language.




> You need to use different words for things - no more sit, instead use relax or something like that. You could use carrot, they don't know! But for now, her NILIF behavior for payment might just be the act of taking food from you.


Could that confuse Aero?



> For the leash, leave it on the floor for now with some treats around it and start there, putting it on her and tethering her to you is like 20 steps ahead of where she's ready for.


Well she is okay on the leash, it's just a matter of getting to her to clip it on where she's fearful. Once she's on it, no worries

And for what it's worth, at night she sleeps in a dog bed next to Aero, with Sylvester on my bed. Sometimes Aero gets on my bed, but she stays on the floor, because she hasn't earned that privilege yet (which is why I think she tries to nip at Sylvester, and only as he's jumping onto the bed).



> Please join this group: shy-k9s : shy-k9s
> They really understand the relationship with a fearful dog.


I'll check it out.


----------



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

So an update - all the animals are getting along. I took Elsa for a walk around the block, and aside from the usual sniffing (with Aero), all went well. She seems to be doing really good now.

I also asked someone at school (who referred me to this forum) and she said Greta is a long haired who's probably from German working lines.


----------

