# A Few General Questions



## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

1) Is there a certain age you should wait to start feeding raw?

2) What does the following mean:

RBM
MM
OM

3) It seems important to rotate the type of meat being fed. How often shoud you rotate (daily, weekly, monthly)?

Edit - Max is about 4 months old.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

1.) any age..some wean puppies right to raw

2.) RMB = Raw Meaty Bone

MM = Muscle Meat

OM= Organ Meat

3.) We rotate all the time, daily ect. But when starting off it is probably best to start with one type of meat. 
Raw Dog Ranch is a great place to read about this all!

http://www.rawdogranch.com/


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

You can start your dog on raw at any age. Some breeders ween their pups onto raw.

RMB (not RBM) - Raw Meaty Bone
MM - Muscle Meat (Meat, no bone)
OM - Organ Meat (liver, kidney)

As for rotation, I think it is balance over time. Each meat has different nutrients, so you want to give a good variety of food to your pup so that you make sure he is getting the nutrition that he needs. Personally, I feed my dogs several different meat sources each week (and each day for that matter). They sometimes get different meats in the same meal. But, everyone has their own way of feeding, so not everyone will do it that way, I'm sure. It is what works best for you and your dog.

ETA: I definitely agree that when starting out you should start out with one protein source and add new ones one at a time.


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

Thanks!

With starting out with just 1 meat...what is recommended and is that RBM, MM & OM?

Should you start adding in others over weeks or months?


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

You can start out with any meat...we did chicken which is cheap and easy. You will have to do both RMB and MM to begin with - depending on what type of RMB (chicken quarter, wing, neck) you choose you will need to add a certain amout of MM (chicken breast, thigh meat, gizzards, hearts). The reason being, those RMB's have different amounts of bone to them - chicken quarters have a pretty good ratio of RMB:MM, where necks are very boney. Too much bone will lead to constipation; Too much meat = runny poop. So, you will need to add a bit of MM if you were going to feed chicken necks. Each week or two you can add a new protein source (assuming your dog has had no problems with the previous meat added) until you get a good variety (then you can feed them all together or in any order). The only reason I say to wait on the OM, is that it is very rich and can also cause runny poop if you give too much. You only give a small amount at a time. We waited a couple of weeks into the diet to add that in.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

I started when my pups were 4 months.









http://leerburg.com/pdf/feedingrawdiet.pdf


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

Where can I find input on the % of RMB & MM to feed my pup (4 months)?


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: JohnnyBWhere can I find input on the % of RMB & MM to feed my pup (4 months)?


Pups get as much food as an adult dog but it is spread out over more meals per day. It works out at 2% of the anticipated adult weight plus or minus 1% due to activity. See the following link to help with the ratios. All the best.

http://www.rawdogranch.com/


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

Raw dog ranch site is down for a while...but the leerburg e-book linked above is also good. 

Like Qyn, I feed pups (regardless of age) the same as adult dogs. 2% of their expected ideal adult weight--i.e. 100 pound dog eats 2 pounds of food a day. So a puppy that will grow up to be a 100 pound dog will also get 2 pounds of food a day. But every dog has to be fed based on that individual dog and how they burn food. 

The ratio of RMB and MM is--roughly--half each. So, in the above example, that dog would get a pound of RMB and a pound of MM each day. 

Here again, each dog may need a slightly different ratio---you can get a good snapshot of the ratio by the consistency of the dog's poop. But starting at half-and-half will get you in the ballpark. 

Every RMB has a different amount of actual bone---chicken thighs have less bone than chicken backs, for example. So much of this you'll simply learn by doing it.


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Luca_stlRaw dog ranch site is down for a while...but the leerburg e-book linked above is also good.
> 
> Like Qyn, I feed pups (regardless of age) the same as adult dogs. 2% of their expected ideal adult weight--i.e. 100 pound dog eats 2 pounds of food a day. So a puppy that will grow up to be a 100 pound dog will also get 2 pounds of food a day. But every dog has to be fed based on that individual dog and how they burn food.
> 
> ...


So a sample meal might be???:
1lb chicken quarters
1lb chicken breast

With feeding chicken only starting out for the 1st month or so, how important if variety (chicken thighs some days and chicken backs others)?


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

> Quote: So a sample meal might be???:
> 1lb chicken quarters
> 1lb chicken breast


That would be a whole day's worth, not just one meal...but yes. That's the idea. 

You'd really only need to do "chicken only" for perhaps a week at most, not a month. The idea is just to make sure that the chicken isn't causing any digestion or allergic issues before adding a new food. You'd be able to tell in a week. 

After the first week of chicken only, you could then start doing chicken quarters and ground turkey. Next week turkey necks and pork. Each week adding a new food. 

When thinking of variety, different parts of the same animal don't count. Chicken is chicken. So switching from chicken legs to chicken wings isn't providing a new protein source. Switching from chicken to turkey counts. 

Hope that helps. 

Check out that e-book from Leerburg.


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

So, I've been reading through the menu examples in one of the sticky threads. Based upon that, I don't think using chicking wings & chicken breasts may be the best option (pricey?).

For starting out I think chicken wings and quarters ok for the RMB.
What is good for chicken MM that isn't as pricey as breasts?

I definitely need to locate a local chicken/turkery processor.

I'm thinking my staples are going to be:
RMB
chicken quarters
turkey necks
fish
not sure what use for red meat

MM
ground beef (my local meat market sells "dog food")
turkey/chicken (once I locate a source)
deer

OM
liver
heart


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

An RMB with the bone removed is now MM.









So you can remove the bone from a chicken thigh and you have cheap muscle meat. 

Your list looks pretty good. You're on the right track. Just constantly keep your eyes open to sales, and don't hesitate to shop at some different places, or call around and inquire. 

One thing of note---hearts and gizzards are considered MM. 

Even though they are internal organs, they are more like muscle. for the purposes of this diet, the organ meats to use are primarily liver and kidney. There are a few other strange organs, but I almost never see them in stores--pancreas, thymus, brain--those would also be OM. 

Heart meat (beef or pork) as well as chicken gizzards are a staple MM at my house.


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

So...we have 3 meals under our belt now.
They have all 3 been chicken.

A few observations/concerns. For RMB I've used breast w/bone and wings/small drum sticks (like what hot wings would be). I have some prepared w/chicken legs but haven't fed yet. I have also added boneless breasts w/some of the more boney pieces.
1) He seems to eat the bonles breast very fast. A little chewing and down the hatch. I'm afraid he's eating too fast.
2) He seems to handle the wings pretty well but the smaller drum sticks take some effort (which is good 'cause it slows him down). But, will the normal legs/drum sticks be too big of bones? Remember he's 4 months.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

Chicken legs will not be too big for him--it may take him a couple of minutes to chew on them, but that's the idea. 

Don't worry about him swallowing hunks of boneless meat without much chewing--that's what dogs do. Their teeth aren't really made for chewing food into mush like people's teeth. They only need to rip it into hunks that can be swallowed. That chicken breast meat was dissolved to liquid within minutes of it hitting his stomach. 

Sounds like you're doing great. Assuming you don't see any issues with vomiting/runny poop/obvious allergic reactions, you should be ready to add a new protein source within a few days. A red meat source might be a good next item---beef or pork heart meat is a cheap option for red meat.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

You sound like you have a good plan. I think most starters make the mistake of too much variety too soon.

Stick with one protein source for several weeks. This gives the dogs system time to detox and get used to the new food. Also if you slowly add new protein into the diet it is easier to recognize what does and doesn't agree with your dog.

My pup was weanned at the breeders on raw. I switched my other two at the age of three and two when my little dog developed allergies.

Good luck.


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

OK...so I'll try to relax on the swallowing of large pieces of MM.
Is there not a concern about eating too fast and causing the stomach issues (I can't think of the technical term right now) that I've read about being common in GSDs?

I'm monitoring the poo closely. He used to poop faithfully after each meal of kibble. Now, he doesn't poop after eating. I assume as long as he has a movement in a 24 hour span there's no worry of constipation???

If he does get constipated, what is a good "laxitive"?
I know long term I should cut back on RMB but for short term what are the options/solutions?


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: JohnnyB
> If he does get constipated, what is a good "laxitive"?


Pumpkin, metamucil or psyllium husks (basically fiber that you must mix with water) or organ meat


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

OK...we started raw last Fri PM. 1st 3-4 days went well. We had less frequent poo & firm. Then bam, frequent runny poo starting Tue. Today it's still pretty loose but not liquidy like it was Tue.

I started him out w/chicken breasts (some boneless, some bone-in), wings, & thighs. I did give him 1 chicken liver w/his meal on Mon. or Tue AM. As soon as I saw the loose stool I upped his bone (I think) and decreased from 16 oz twice a day to 10-12 oz twice a day. Started serving all chicken leg quarters (leg & thigh). He's had 3 meals of that now.

What can I do to get his poo under control (I've already put the livers on hold and think I've increased the RMB).


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

If it's just soft poop, but otherwise he shows no symptoms of being ill, you can try canned pumpkin (plain pumpkin, not pie filling). A few big tablespoonsfull will help improve poop consistency pretty quickly.


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Luca_stl
> If it's just soft poop, but otherwise he shows no symptoms of being ill, you can try canned pumpkin (plain pumpkin, not pie filling). A few big tablespoonsfull will help improve poop consistency pretty quickly.


No signs of illness. It was liquid consistency at first but more like toothpaste (a bit thinner) now.

I thought pumpkin was for constipation as noted earlier???


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

That's the magic of pumpkin. It works to equalize the consistency of poop at either extreme.









Pumpkin is just a source of fiber that dogs like the taste of. You could accomplish the same thing with psyllium, (Metamucil is one brand). Fiber holds moisture in the stool...solidifying runny poop and moisturizing hard ones. 

Don't let runny (especially watery) poops go on too long without a trip to the vet. Pups can get dehydrated pretty quickly. It could be something totally unrelated to the diet--he could have picked up a parasite drinking from a puddle--who knows. As long as you're seeing improvement in the poop, I think watching and offering some fiber is prudent.


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

Thought I'd give an update.

The loose stool is back under control. I stick w/the chicken quarters and breast w/bone for another week or so, then intro a small amount of something new (suggestions?).


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

Glad to hear everything's back to normal. 

Doesn't really matter what your next protein is--may as well go with something which, like chicken, is readily available and will hopefully be a regular part of the diet. 

Some options include turkey or pork--or any kind of fish. Beef is great too, but I have a hard time finding any cut of beef that isn't outside my price range for dog food. Beef heart is usually cheapest. Venison is available to many folks, so that could be an option too. 

Most of us will sometimes add in new things every now and then just as a way to add variety, but they aren't items that the dogs get too often. Lamb, mutton, rabbit, goat, quail, emu--you name it. But I don't see any reason to try any of these things early on in the diet. You may as well get through all the "staple" proteins first. 

Other stuff like eggs and oils can be worked into your one-thing-at-a-time protocol too.


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