# Will IPO trained dogs bite without sleeve?



## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

If the answer is no, how hard is it to switch over to I guess personal protection. Are hidden sleeves ever used in IPO training and why can't you just mix the two (IPO/PP).


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

You should do a forum search for "civil aggression", lots of good stuff lurking here.

German Shepherd Dog Forums - Search Results

Some people do mix the two. Depends on the person, depends on the dog. One is a structured sport, the other is a very different form of protection work (may or may not include muzzle work, bite suits, hidden sleeves, etc).

I think how hard it is to switch depends on the innate drives, temperament and traits of the dog itself.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Airman1stclass said:


> If the answer is no, how hard is it to switch over to I guess personal protection. Are hidden sleeves ever used in IPO training and why can't you just mix the two (IPO/PP).


Almost none will. This is by design though. A bite anywhere but the sleeve can get you DQ'ed or banned. IPO dogs are strongly discouraged from ever biting anything but that jute sleeve, and even then a specific part of that sleeve only.

How hard is it to switch? Depends on the dog and your (helper and you) collective training abilities & equipment. 

Most probably train only with the sleeves, jute pillows/wedges. Some (like myself) train with hidden sleeves... and suits, and muzzles, and no equipment (no bite obviously). I personally want personal protection dogs first and foremost, and IPO dogs as time, training, and opportunity allows. So, you can certainly mix the two with the right training and the right dog.

The above being said, I believe most IPO dogs unsuitable for personal protection work. Topic for another thread though lol


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

Is the dog banned or the trainer? Either way that's a tough punishment. Especially if it happend on accident. But I guess its probably almost impossible for a dog to bite anything besides the big sleeve. Especially when it's right in their face.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> The above being said, I believe most IPO dogs unsuitable for personal protection work. Topic for another thread though lol


You should elaborate in another thread, I for one would love to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If introduced properly...most IPO dogs will bite something other than a sleeve. You can basically trick them into doing it and once they do it once, realize its okay, they'll keep doing it.

The reasons its not done were listed by hunter...

I work in SDA and in IPO, and you realize dogs will bite whatever you train them to bite. They'll also have their favorite spots...which is what you tell an SDA helper before you trial, so that they know what to present to the dog for a bite. So even on a coat...my dog bites the forearm.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Airman1stclass said:


> Is the dog banned or the trainer? Either way that's a tough punishment. Especially if it happend on accident. But I guess its probably almost impossible for a dog to bite anything besides the big sleeve. Especially when it's right in their face.


Can't remember but I believe its the dog, and its initially 6 months or a year, and either a second or third offense is a lifetime ban (?)


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

martemchik said:


> If introduced properly...most IPO dogs will bite something other than a sleeve. You can basically trick them into doing it and once they do it once, realize its okay, they'll keep doing it.
> 
> The reasons its not done were listed by hunter...
> 
> I work in SDA and in IPO, and you realize dogs will bite whatever you train them to bite. They'll also have their favorite spots...which is what you tell an SDA helper before you trial, so that they know what to present to the dog for a bite. So even on a coat...my dog bites the forearm.


And everytime I see that in SDA it makes me cringe. There isn't much padding in a suit sleeve. I have scars on my bicep from suit bites. There is no way on earth I'm taking a forearm bite in my suit. Folks don't realize how hard a dog can bite, just the pressure... My male's grand sire was notorious for breaking forearms on the street ... I train mine to target bicep/armpit from the front, or tricep from the rear... so for the OP, you can see a dog can be trained "if sleeve present, bite sleeve. If jacket, bite armpit." etc. A helper failed to get a pillow out quickly with Katya and took a thigh bite from her in scratch pants... and we've never done a single leg bite... so some dogs, are getting their bite come **** or high water.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> You should elaborate in another thread, I for one would love to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.


I can sum up everyone's thoughts like this:

"My dog is a monster, he/she will bite anything I'm sure of it"

or

"I've worked and watched enough dogs on enough types of equipment to know most will not unless specifically trained to do so, and even then many very nice IPO dogs are ill suited for biting things other than sleeves."


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Yup!:thumbup:

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I did a protection challenge and I don't normally train in the scenarios that were presented. NOT SDA or IPO stuff, just some fun protection exercises.
My dog will bite a suit(armpit unless an arm is presented) and I have no doubt he'd do leg bites if he was told to. 
What confused him during that challenge was the passive bite....decoy walking away from the dog in an non-threatening manner and the the dog is commanded to bite. Karlo didn't know what to do because we never, ever trained for that. After the decoy made a movement, of course K engaged. We had to call off the dog and redirect to another decoy who was rushing up at the handler. If the dog got to the decoy before the decoy made it to the handler, all points were given. 
This type of exercise was really fun, the dogs are challenged more and have to think.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Jane" we used to teach multiple attacks coming from three people too teach protect the handler" it really teaches them too be aware of the surroundings" and build confidence" bond " and think! Plus great fun for everyone! Plus too think and learn" I tell you its fun too talk" and work" with like minded smart" good people Bill

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

and outing is worthy when there is more game to catch. When we did this the first decoy was quite far from me to send the dog, the second decoy was closer to me, the dog had to pass the second decoy who was also passive at the time. It is a thinking exercise.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I say it depends on the dog. My female, who is only 1 year old and is just starting bite work, will bite with joy. No sleeve required.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Yes on the outing!

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

robk said:


> I say it depends on the dog. My female, who is only 1 year old and is just starting bite work, will bite with joy. No sleeve required.


Thats why it is important to teach a youngster the sleeve is the place to bite if doing IPO. My dog was the same way when younger, he needed to know he couldn't do leg bites or other areas, just the sleeve. He learned fast.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

It does depend on the dog I.m.o. I have a west German show line they say are not much anymore well I'm sure that's probably true about most" but not all" same with any sport dog most live for one thing the sleeve" but not all" their are the few that would take it to you if they thought you were a threat" but without a sleeve they might have to be taught. I think good dogs come from all lines and any shepherd with good balance" that's what they are supposed to be.
Can do protection work' and be good" if trained right! J.m.o. Bill

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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> And everytime I see that in SDA it makes me cringe. There isn't much padding in a suit sleeve. I have scars on my bicep from suit bites. There is no way on earth I'm taking a forearm bite in my suit. Folks don't realize how hard a dog can bite, just the pressure... My male's grand sire was notorious for breaking forearms on the street ... I train mine to target bicep/armpit from the front, or tricep from the rear... so for the OP, you can see a dog can be trained "if sleeve present, bite sleeve. If jacket, bite armpit." etc.


I agree and also train the armpit or collar bone (prefer armpit but sometimes if the dog is really jacked he wants to get nearer the juggular, lol), but having done so much foundation in IPO and IPO first, the dog basically bites what is presented. If nothing, like more of a passive bite where the helper is provoking the dog with his overall presence or veeeery subtle movements, dog will bite the target I want. If he raises and arm or "presents" it though, the dog bites the arm. I do feel kinda bad but the decoys seem to think it's cool to come away all bruised and punctured through the suit.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I agree and also train the armpit or collar bone (prefer armpit but sometimes if the dog is really jacked he wants to get nearer the juggular, lol), but having done so much foundation in IPO and IPO first, the dog basically bites what is presented. If nothing, like more of a passive bite where the helper is provoking the dog with his overall presence or veeeery subtle movements, dog will bite the target I want. If he raises and arm or "presents" it though, the dog bites the arm. I do feel kinda bad but the decoys seem to think it's cool to come away all bruised and punctured through the suit.


Collar bone? Never gonna work your dog... Too close to my neck lol. Never heard of collar bone.

With the suit work I *only* allow bicep/pit bites... Anywhere else is immediate out. More for safety than anything else.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> And everytime I see that in SDA it makes me cringe. There isn't much padding in a suit sleeve. I have scars on my bicep from suit bites. There is no way on earth I'm taking a forearm bite in my suit. Folks don't realize how hard a dog can bite, just the pressure... My male's grand sire was notorious for breaking forearms on the street ... I train mine to target bicep/armpit from the front, or tricep from the rear... so for the OP, you can see a dog can be trained "if sleeve present, bite sleeve. If jacket, bite armpit." etc. A helper failed to get a pillow out quickly with Katya and took a thigh bite from her in scratch pants... and we've never done a single leg bite... so some dogs, are getting their bite come **** or high water.



The SDA forearm suit bites do hurt. There is a technique to it to keep from breaking bones. Not saying it doesn't hurt, but no breaks. I have caught some VERY hard biting dogs and my arms are still intact. Also in SDA the dog is allowed to bite forearm or bicep/tricep in the suit. That being said, my puppies are bicep dogs on the suit. If a sleeve is presented, they will take that.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> The SDA forearm suit bites do hurt. There is a technique to it to keep from breaking bones. Not saying it doesn't hurt, but no breaks. I have caught some VERY hard biting dogs and my arms are still intact. Also in SDA the dog is allowed to bite forearm or bicep/tricep in the suit. That being said, my puppies are bicep dogs on the suit. If a sleeve is presented, they will take that.


What is the technique? Don't get molars on your ulna? Lol


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> What is the technique? Don't get molars on your ulna? Lol


Haha Yup! You got it. 

It's the angle that your arm is presented to the dog. As you know, the forearm is two bones. If you present with the bones up and down then there is a gap that the dog can crush breaking one or both. If the bones are parallel to the ground(think bite bar angle in sleeve) the there is no "air" gap to be able to compress the bones. I will try and find a few pictures. From my hand angle you can tell my forearm angle.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Haha Yup! You got it.
> 
> It's the angle that your arm is presented to the dog. As you know, the forearm is two bones. If you present with the bones up and down then there is a gap that the dog can crush breaking one or both. If the bones are parallel to the ground(think bite bar angle in sleeve) the there is no "air" gap to be able to compress the bones. I will try and find a few pictures. From my hand angle you can tell my forearm angle.


In a thin suit though... Strong dog can crack bigger bones with the molars


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> In a thin suit though... Strong dog can crack bigger bones with the molars


Maybe, I've caught a dog that have crushed my hard sleeve to the point of not being able to use again in an ALM trial suit with a leather gauntlet under.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Airman1stclass said:


> If the answer is no, how hard is it to switch over to I guess personal protection. Are hidden sleeves ever used in IPO training and why can't you just mix the two (IPO/PP).


The answer is based on the dog, some have ZERO hesitation in engaging without equipment some will run off the field if equipment is removed and challenged.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree it is based on the dog, and somewhat to lesser degree on the training.


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