# Titles vs Certifications (working type)



## cliffson1

People often ask me why I think the breed is better or worse than in the past. Overall, I think that the breed has suffered from the emphasis placed on breeding dogs for show/sport titles as opposed to breeding dogs for use in working certifications. I think the most important attributes of a well bred German Shepherd is intelligence and nerve making it capable for utility work. My problem with sport and show is that they are always performed in controlled environments thus allowing conditioned animals to achieve success though lacking vital traits. Dog certifications whether they are SAR, Seeing-eye, law Enforcement, etc require the dog to work in an open society in unexpected elements and make decisions that still allow them to accomplish their goals. This should be very important to a breeder, because it shows the dog's/breeds ability to adjust or adapt while in the process of service to man. These traits also make it easy for the breed to be good family dog as will as service dog. Today these type dogs are not looked upon favorably for breeding, but more so dogs that have achieved high results in controlled environments. We often NEVER see how our breeding selections handle themselves in open society OR how they think independently from a patterned routine. Actually, more dogs are selected for breeding because of a performance in a patterned routine. I think over years, this kind of emphasis on breed traits that are visible in these events as opposed to emphasizing breeding for traits that must be seen in uncontrolled environment....have led the breed in a direction that is drivier, and prettier, but not necessarily utilitarian. I would like to see a greater access and reliance on successful dogs with working certifications....I know for LE access is sometimes a problem, but truthfully, I see the problem as a mindset that feels that show/sport showcase important traits in the breed, and the most important trait...utility....cannot be seen in a controlled environment to my way of thinking. 
One last thing, in past titled dogs often trained in other venues after they achieved their titles to demonstrate the utility abilities of the dog....today people never let the dog leave the environment(show/sport) for which they BRED the dog for....and these become the reputable studs. I think this is faulty, and I think the condition of the breed in general supports this.


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## Shade

Very good points, it's something I've been thinking about since the whole "titles" debate that Andy brought up.

I've already stated it in the other thread but I'll reiterate. Delgado's father is a police dog, he has no "titles" outside of that and honestly I'm perfectly happy with his certification and pedigree. They have a lot to live up to and they're tested every day in the real world. The willingness to learn and the bond between the dog and handler has to be dependable and genetics (at least IMO) play a key role in both. I know in Delgado's case there is a bone deep drive to learn, I've had several trainers and a behaviourist comment on how fast and focused he is while training.

But is the success due to to the programs or maybe it's due to their criteria for dogs? Obviously the seeing eye dog programs have their own breeding stock. Some LE seem to get theirs from inhouse, some seem to look outside for breeders

What does the dog have to bring (before training even starts) to make it suitable to even try? Maybe that's where the key is


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## NancyJ

I think the analysis is good from my perspective (having no experience with dog sport or breeding) but have been troubled by two things..........that are a limitation with use of non titled, but certified dogs. 

IRO (for SAR) gets you a "koerable" dog but still does not test fight drive and still requires you to put the dog through some excercises that may not be worth a lot of folks time....[at least not mine for a cadaver dog who does not need to learn to track or find live humans]-So what are good ways to meet the following challenges?

No ability to koer a dog or otherwise get useful independant third party assessment of its structure

For SAR and detection dogs, no good independant way to assess fight drive and courage. I think most SAR training and evaluation puts a pretty good nerve challenge on the dog.


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## ksotto333

This seems to me to be the most rational argument that I've read since joining this forum. To me it is similar to teaching to the test that is done in some schools to get a child to pass a standardized test. They don't know how to figure out problems or think logically about questions, but can pass the exam.


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## Liesje

Can't really argue. I personally can't speak to the utility and certifications you're talking about since I'm not LE so would have no business training and certifying a dog as such, but I do place a high value on utility and a wide range of abilities and behaviors that I need to see which go well beyond the scope of trialing in a single venue, but again that's just me and the dogs *I* am looking to own and train. My point of reluctance is that it seems every other person I meet "in real life" with a GSD tells me their dog is the son/daughter of a "police dog" and I'm seeing everything from really nice specimens of GSD to terrible nerves, temperament, conformation (from a working/utility point of view) and often say to myself "gosh if I had a dime for every person that said their dog's breeder was a K9 handler....." Maybe it's not fair, but these days when I hear that I'm sort of thinking "OK, prove it" because I think so many dogs are not represented correctly.

I do like your point about what dogs do after being titled. I think especially for the show crowd the title and breed survey are just a means to an end - breeding. People advertise doing things the "German way" and having "titled" dogs but really the vast majority of the dogs will no longer see work, other than brushing up a few weeks before a Sieger show, after they are titled and surveyed. I think it's rather sad. I do see many dogs that I think are good dogs with real training and commitment. To me it's disrespectful to the dogs and the breed. A good dog should not be retired from work or training by the time he's 3 years old. Let them do what they love!

I am trying to finish my dog's SchH titles this season because I have some other things that I personally think are more fun, more challenging, and give me a better "feel" for my dog overall that I would like to continue with. But I also value achieving the SchH3 with my first "HOT" dog so it's still a big goal of mine and I do not feel it is not a legitimate goal or a legitimate title either. Once that happens I have no plans to "retire" my dog from bite work or that sort of training, just switching venues (going back to SDA), up the ante a bit


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## wildo

cliffson1 said:


> This should be very important to a breeder, because it shows the dog's/breeds ability to adjust or adapt while in the process of service to man.
> ...
> 
> We often NEVER see how our breeding selections handle themselves in open society OR how they think independently from a patterned routine. Actually, more dogs are selected for breeding because of a performance in a patterned routine.


Just one more reason to love the sport of agility. When the team steps onto the agility field, it is the very first time the dog has ever seen that course. It's imperative that the dog adjust and adapt to the cues the handler is giving in order to make it through the course. The dog MUST both think independently in order to perform the equipment maneuvers correctly, as well as work _with_ the handler taking direction and following cues. There are no patterned routines in agility.


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## Gwenhwyfair

PSA will keep you on your toes!

While I'm shooting for IPO, my trainer is a PSA guy and no patterns with our training! 


....Cliff expressed himself well but I think that specialization/subsets we see is a function of free market principles and is here to stay as representative model of modern society.

The demand is not as high for dogs that would fit the criteria of LE (and I ponder if LE hasn't shifted away from the breed as much as the breed has shifted away from it...to an extent anyways).

On the upside as Tim said in the other thread about titles, there are still breeders filling that need because where there is demand, there will be the dogs to fill it.

(btw very similiar breed trajectory if you compare how GSDs have changed and Quarter Horses, both known for utility then as the need for utility disappeared due to industrialization specialized subsets appear within the breed)


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## mycobraracr

I agree that the specialization of the breed have ruined the breed. Going to some of these dog events and seeing some of the GSD's. The only things they have in common are the looks. Even that is not always the case. The problem with only using certified dogs is that it would limit the gene pool. That's one of the factors that got us into this mess isn't it? Can the general public go out and get a LE cert on their dog? Maybe it's time to come up with a new breed survey like the SV's. One that maybe changes events and places. Doesn't work on controlled fields every time. How long do you think that one would last before it got screwed up too?


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## martemchik

I personally think we already ask a lot out of breeders, especially for the 2nd most popular breed in the United States. To expect them to now look to other venues than the one that already takes up a lot of time is pretty nuts.

I agree with your point Cliff, but the market just doesn't allow for breeders to compete in a variety of different venues. On top of that, the customers are so demanding to see those titles, that even when they have no idea what they mean they'll demand them. I don't know how many times someone has asked for a review of a breeder on here and it comes up that they don't title in Schutzhund. Then, if there is even mention that the stud is a LE dog, the skeptics ring in about the fact that it is probably a lie and no one does that.

I don't blame the breeders as much as I blame the customers. Those looking for a Schutzhund trialing dog want to see SchH3 throughout the pedigree or they move on to the next one. And those that have no idea what Schutzhund even is, come on this forum, get told all about it (without actually seeing it), and then start a search for a breeder that titles in that sport with no idea what any of it means, shows, or proves. At best they might check out a Schutzhund club once before purchasing a dog from a breeder that people on the forum praise from the mountain top...and the breeders that are praised pass all the "reputable breeder" checks and that wonderful flow chart that consistently gets brought up when someone asks about breeding their own dog. I know for a fact that titles are a big part of that flow chart...and yet all other titles (AKC, UKC, Agility, ect) are constantly dismissed over a Schutzhund title.

BTW...I trial AKC obedience...when I saw my first Schutzhund trial I was amazed at how scripted it was. The fact that the handler has to memorize an obedience routine was amazing to me. At least in AKC they can switch it up somewhat...here everything was to the book and there was more chance of the handler making a mistake by forgetting an exercise than the dog actually missing a command. I still accept the fact that Schutzhund is a much more in depth and well-rounded test of a dog's nerve and ability than an AKC obedience trial, but it is probably the sports biggest "weakness."


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## cliffson1

No specific test or cert will test every aspect of the breed....there are np perfect dogs anyway.....but my point is breeding for utility and nerves over drives and structure. Now that is not saying that drives and structure is not needed to be a good specimen....but people today breed FOR drives and conformation first!....the reality is that the breed has acquired it's magnificent reputation while doing things such as herding, service work, law enforcement, military, and auxiliary services. In all of these things nerves and mental strength in combination with learning what man taught them allowed them to be utility dogs. Breeders should look at strength of nerve FIRST, because with that the breed makes an easy adjustment to uses in the industrial world as well as shifting family values. Drives and structure as a primary focus make the breed great in show ring and maybe nationals, but the breed has lost ground in all the other areas that it was created for. GS c are still great dogs in these fields, both service areas (SAR, Seeing-eye,herding) as well as protection and detection areas in military and LE. The difference today is that the nerves have been watered down so seeing eye and some types of SAR find good applicants difficult, and the structure used in the showering DOES NOT translate to function other than the show ring and maybe herding trials in controlled environments. 
My point is if you are a German Shepherd breeder, what is your primary focus and what are you breeding for. Everyone SAYS temperament....haha....but ask them to evaluate a dog and see what comes out their mouth first. Shoulder, grip, croup, drive,gait, top line,etc. so what are really their breeding priorities, does it reflect traits necessary to keep this dog an utility dog. I wonder sometime!


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## DinoBlue

cliffson1 said:


> The difference today is that the nerves have been watered down so seeing eye and some types of SAR find good applicants difficult, and the structure used in the showering DOES NOT translate to function other than the show ring and maybe herding trials in controlled environments.


To add to Cliff’s point. I entered the world of US&R little over a year ago and by more dumb luck then anything I found a GSD that possessed all the traits needed for urban search and rescue. But the truth is, that is becoming harder and harder to find a GSD suitable for this kind of work. I have over the past year watched quite a few GSD being tested for disaster work and the majority of them does not have what it takes to make a disaster search dog. And we are talking about dogs with working line pedigrees (and a few showline and showline/working crosses), titles on every dog. Even people who have always worked GSD’s have no choice but to look for another breed of dog because it is easier to find a none GSD that can do this type work. The majority of dogs in the FEMA system now are Labrador Retrievers.


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## RocketDog

I obviously have no experience in sport, agility or LE/auxiliary services like that. But--when I was a kid, a German couple lived down the road. She always had two GSD's and those dogs could do anything. I would walk down and knock on her door and we would go in the backyard and she would show me some of the things she did with them, which I guess, in retrospect, were Sch-type things and impeccable obedience. She would tell me about all the things they could do and of course, it seemed like every seeing eye dog or police/bomb dog was a GSD in the '70's and early '80's. Anyhow, I came away with the idea that they were THE dog, capable of doing anything and everything. 

So fast forward to today, and I did not know when I got Rocket, the division and the specialization that had occurred in the breed. I was still in the mind-set that the GSD could do anything you asked of it and required of it, as long as you had a knowledgeable breeder. I mean, they still can, but those breeders seem to be the minority. It seems to me that the general all-around purpose is now split, as Cliff outlines. That many breeders--not all of course--do focus only on their 'chosen' aspects, depending on the venue in which they participate. This makes it more difficult for people like me to get the GSD they want, which is one that is balanced, true to standard, and not weighted in one direction or the other.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, I'm with you on that.

In general, I want to make sure my comments are not mistaken as an argument* for* the specialization. I didn't like it in the Quarter Horses but since most people don't need a working ranch horse, how do you get around it?

Rather I'm pointing out the macro pressures and changes to our lifestyles that are causing this specialization. I see this in a somewhat similiar vein as the thread about BYBs. Since money is a driver how do we keep on a better course for the breed while working within the confines of a money driven/free market system without onerous rules/regs?

The underlying causes should be considered.




RocketDog said:


> I obviously have no experience in sport, agility or LE/auxiliary services like that. But--when I was a kid, a German couple lived down the road. She always had two GSD's and those dogs could do anything. I would walk down and knock on her door and we would go in the backyard and she would show me some of the things she did with them, which I guess, in retrospect, were Sch-type things and impeccable obedience. She would tell me about all the things they could do and of course, it seemed like every seeing eye dog or police/bomb dog was a GSD in the '70's and early '80's. Anyhow, I came away with the idea that they were THE dog, capable of doing anything and everything.
> 
> So fast forward to today, and I did not know when I got Rocket, the division and the specialization that had occurred in the breed. I was still in the mind-set that the GSD could do anything you asked of it and required of it, as long as you had a knowledgeable breeder. I mean, they still can, but those breeders seem to be the minority. It seems to me that the general all-around purpose is now split, as Cliff outlines. That many breeders--not all of course--do focus only on their 'chosen' aspects, depending on the venue in which they participate. This makes it more difficult for people like me to get the GSD they want, which is one that is balanced, true to standard, and not weighted in one direction or the other.


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## Liesje

martemchik said:


> Those looking for a Schutzhund trialing dog want to see SchH3 throughout the pedigree or they move on to the next one.


Actually I find that often those with show line dogs are quicker to point out all the SchH titles in the pedigree. I know a good number of Schutzhund people that have bred untitled dogs or bought dogs for Schutzhund from a parent that was not titled. I'm not saying these dogs are the epitome of the breed, but at least speaking for myself and those I do Schutzhund with, we do not disqualify a pedigree because it is not all SchH3.




> BTW...I trial AKC obedience...when I saw my first Schutzhund trial I was amazed at how scripted it was. The fact that the handler has to memorize an obedience routine was amazing to me. At least in AKC they can switch it up somewhat...here everything was to the book and there was more chance of the handler making a mistake by forgetting an exercise than the dog actually missing a command. I still accept the fact that Schutzhund is a much more in depth and well-rounded test of a dog's nerve and ability than an AKC obedience trial, but it is probably the sports biggest "weakness."


I think the biggest weakness is that it is one dog and handler (and a judge and secretary at a respectable distance) on a huge field. You can do Schutzhund with a dog that is overly sharp, too dog aggressive, nervous, etc. because you have this amazing amount of space available for you to showcase your dog and your handling without any interference or distraction and certainly not an environment that puts pressure on you or your dog. That to me is where the holes are, but then again it's all about priorities.


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## GSDElsa

I think people overgeneralize way too much. It's not an either/or IMO. Just like titles don't make the dog, neither do certifications. I've seen as many dogs "certified" in some working capactiy that I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole as dogs with some kind of title. The variation from state to state to become certified in whatever "working" venue varies WAY too much to say that those are in some way better than titles. And visa versa.

Titles versus working dog certificates. At the end of the day it all comes down to each individual dog. 

As an aside, I don't think agility is an appropriate way to test a GSD.....and I would definitely argue that there is quite a bit of pattern to agility as well. Yes, the course might be new, but you are seeing the same "scenarios" each time with the same type of jumps.


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## wildo

GSDElsa said:


> and I would definitely argue that there is quite a bit of pattern to agility as well. Yes, the course might be new, but you are seeing the same "scenarios" each time with the same type of jumps.


There are generally 20 obstacles on a course with each generally having two approach directions, so 40 different ways of handling the individual obstacles. But each obstacle may route to each other obstacle, and so there would be 40! (factorial) permutations- or 8.1591528e+47 different "scenarios" you might see. That's 8 followed by 47 zeros... "same scenarios?" I disagree.


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## Whiteshepherds

For those who really understand the breed, what would you say is the best way to test temperament away from venues that require training before testing, like Sch., agility etc.


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## martemchik

No single venue is a perfect "test." Agility has the same problem Liesje brought up with Schutzhund...large field...one dog at a time. I see way way way too many DA dogs in that venue. Handlers rush their dogs into the ring and out of it before it even gets a whiff of the other dogs in the trial.

Anyways...I get what cliff is saying though. Getting some of that "true working dog" blood into the pedigrees wouldn't hurt and too much reliance is coming off of titles that are trainable.

I think at the end of the day we need to trust the breeder. Trust they have knowledge, and trust that they're trying to achieve something good with that knowledge. But then it comes back to what the customer is looking for, and they will find that Schutzhund titled pedigree they're looking for.

Maybe the biggest issue is that it is very difficult to get a hold of the right pedigree behind the LE/SAR/service dog that would blend well with the breeder's lines and its really not worth trying to find it. I don't believe most police departments allow studding and from what I've heard if they import the dog they usually don't bother with any kind of AKC or other type of registration...which would be a hurdle to clear if the breeder has future plans for AKC registered puppies (most do).


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## wildo

For the record, I didn't say (in this thread) that agility is a good test for the GSD. What I said is that it eliminates the pattern training that SchH embraces.

[EDIT]-


martemchik said:


> I see way way way too many DA dogs in that venue. Handlers rush their dogs into the ring and out of it before it even gets a whiff of the other dogs in the trial.


I would not disagree with this. I've also seen plenty of dogs rushed in and out of the ring in order to manage a behavior deficiency. But we should be clear that it's also standard protocol to get in and out of the ring as quickly as possible. 300+ runs per day is very common. There has to be a sense of efficiency, not lingering.


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## GSDElsa

wildo said:


> There are generally 20 obstacles on a course with each generally having two approach directions, so 40 different ways of handling the individual obstacles. But each obstacle may route to each other obstacle, and so there would be 40! (factorial) permutations- or 8.1591528e+47 different "scenarios" you might see. That's 8 followed by 47 zeros... "same scenarios?" I disagree.


Willy, I've done a lot of showjumping and hunters in my life with horses. Yes, there are different ways to handle obstacles, but they are always the same type of obstacles in the same general atmosphere with the same general shaped arena. Sorry, but it's an apples to oranges comparison to the type of stuff Cliff is talking about no matter what way it's spun.

At best, agility lies somewhere in the middle between "pattern testing" and "real life" working-dog scenarios.


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## NancyJ

I am going to agree with GSDElsa here. 

It is in between. Take that agility dog and put them in a strange environment with obstacles they have never seen...ever.. and expect them to deal with them without having to be encouraged......environmental sensitivity kills a lot of dogs from SAR.

Some things we have dealt with on searches (and in some good training scenarios )..and there is, of course a lot more:

Dark buildings, culverts, loose rock, logs, deep ditches, under trailers or low crawlspaces, running through kudzu (you either know kudzu or you don't and if you do you know what I mean), encountering the most unusual things (how does a refrigerator get in the woods miles from any road?), swinging bridges, sheet metal roofs of collapsed barns, brush piles, open metal stairs (we had a great training day testing the dogs on a catwalk over a theater), sucking mud, transported on a gator or whatever they put you on, etc etc. All of these things with no former acclimitization. You never know what you will encounter and it has got to be even crazier for police dogs.

That is the world a working dog faces. If they have to learn to "get over" things they are worthless as there are always new things for them to get over that you can't even imagine.


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## wildo

jocoyn said:


> That is the world a working dog faces. If they have to learn to "get over" things they are worthless as there are always new things for them to get over that you can't even imagine.


Is this _really_ an accurate statement of working dogs- SAR specifically? I have three friends (one a WL GSD owner) who each work on different SAR teams in Indy, and not one of them are quite so extreme about their opinion of their SAR dogs. I even had one friend tell me that her dog is far ahead of some other dogs in her group on account of the fact they do agility. She's already trained comparable things to the list you posted because of agility training, and she did that before starting SAR. I can think of quite a few comparable things I've trained Pimg on that are 100% comparable to the list you provided- all done in the name of agility training. I think we even have a thread in the agility section called something like "Agility in the Real World." 

So once again I'll clarify that I don't think the sport of agility is the "perfect" test for a working GSD, but I can't go so far as to say that a dog who will have to be trained to overcome some obstacle is worthless as a SAR dog. There are many dogs who were fearful of the teeter that now execute that obstacle with blazing speed. It's only on this forum alone that I've heard such extreme opinions on the "worth" of the dog in their ability to perform a job innately.


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## mycobraracr

jocoyn said:


> Dark buildings, culverts, loose rock, logs, deep ditches, under trailers or low crawlspaces, running through kudzu (you either know kudzu or you don't and if you do you know what I mean), encountering the most unusual things (how does a refrigerator get in the woods miles from any road?), swinging bridges, sheet metal roofs of collapsed barns, brush piles, open metal stairs (we had a great training day testing the dogs on a catwalk over a theater), sucking mud, transported on a gator or whatever they put you on, etc etc. All of these things with no former acclimitization. You never know what you will encounter and it has got to be even crazier for police dogs.
> 
> That is the world a working dog faces. If they have to learn to "get over" things they are worthless as there are always new things for them to get over that you can't even imagine.


Wouldn't this also have to do with socialization? Exposing the dog to as many different obstacles as possible. It really seems that a lot of these issues are socialization issues.


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## NancyJ

No what I was trying to say is that the unanticipated is the norm. I think agility is GREAT because it teaches a lot of body awareness and control and has good excercises -even took Beau through a class because of that (should not have done in the summer - so hot a lot got canceled), but you were presenting it as unlike pattern training....that is all....all the obstacles are basically known to the dog

To me, the dog that runs up the teeter and jumps off the side just needs training to slow down and control their body - that is not fear. The dog that needs to be coaxed on because it is unsure about stepping on a new different surface - I do think that is a problem. .

I gave some examples and *of course* you want to expose the puppy to as diverse an environment as possible - my only point there was that the dog with good nerve should be expected to cope bravely with something it has never before encountered. Training is going to point out the dog who does need encouragement and, I think if too much is needed you have to decide if it is worth it, no?


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## wildo

I see. Thanks for the clarification! I suppose it certainly depends on the individual (human) and their goals. I compete in agility because I find it amazingly fun and because it's the first sport I've been able to be competitive in. But, I also _greatly_ enjoy applying that training to "real world" tests and seeing what we can accomplish- the unknown as you put it. I'm always on the lookout for interesting ledges, or tunnels, or moving things, etc for Pimg to jump on and navigate. Her agility skills are not applied only to fixed, known obstacles. I concur with you that the skills learned in the sport are well suited for application in "work," like SAR. In other words- I agree.


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## gsdsar

Except in SAR, the dog is facing these things without an owner right there. In Wliderness work, my dogs were out if my sight a lot. Same as USAR. 

I get having to teach dogs new things. But to me, it's more about how quick a dog will generalize what they learn, and do them without my constant support. 

I do think agility is great. 

I also think no one venue is enough to see a while picture of a dog. 

We don't breed titles, OFA scores, certifications, or ladder climbing ability. We breed dogs. It's the whole picture that needs to be looked at. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair

It only becomes a pattern to a dog if it is trained that way.

Not all trainers train that way...just sayin', I know because my trainer is constantly throwing surprise exercises at us to proof the OB.

We were just talking in the IPObservations thread how the handler cannot 'help' the dog by pointing or looking or leaning because that increases the difficulty. Where that's what the handlers DO in agility, use body language which is more readily learned by the dog. 

Agility is a great sport (I'd love to take our Aussie into it), don't get me wrong, just clarifying some points.



wildo said:


> For the record, I didn't say (in this thread) that agility is a good test for the GSD. What I said is that it eliminates the pattern training that SchH embraces.
> 
> [EDIT]-
> 
> 
> I would not disagree with this. I've also seen plenty of dogs rushed in and out of the ring in order to manage a behavior deficiency. But we should be clear that it's also standard protocol to get in and out of the ring as quickly as possible. 300+ runs per day is very common. There has to be a sense of efficiency, not lingering.


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## cliffson1

Folks, read the post of Jocoyn at 7:04 pm. The paragraph that starts with dark....you would be shocked at how many of the breed today will have issues with these types of things. 
And as far as socialization is concerned, the general nerves of the breed today necessitate extensive socialization for good pet....as far as working in an environment as Jocoyn describes, socialization is not enough. It takes innate genetic soundness. This has to be bred for, and police/military take it to another level....but I like to focus on urban SAR or seeing eye dogs, probably 75% of GS today will wash out of these venues for a variety of reasons associated with nerve strength. Like I said, this isn't about knocking title or saying certs are everything, it's about a mindset that focuses on producing dogs that can work by thinking as opposed to rote. My only issue with agility is it doesn't take nerve strength to do it, and nerve strength is the most lacking element of the breed today.


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## onyx'girl

What I find sad, is the random people(that I sometimes train with) who are training in agility, AKC/UKC competitions~ they see a GSD that has no issue with equipment or hesitation about anything, willingness and biddability....they are in awe. 
I hear so many times that most all of the GSD's they see in events are fearful, timid or reactive/aggressive.
When they see my dog doing things( that theirs may balking at) they comment that that is what a GSD should be. I hear structure comments as well, because they aren't use to seeing a working line sable either.
The representation of the breed has come to a point that when I say what breed I own, I am almost taking a defensive tone, because I know there will be judgement.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Wondering - what your thoughts are about PSA Cliff?





cliffson1 said:


> Folks, read the post of Jocoyn at 7:04 pm. The paragraph that starts with dark....you would be shocked at how many of the breed today will have issues with these types of things.
> And as far as socialization is concerned, the general nerves of the breed today necessitate extensive socialization for good pet....as far as working in an environment as Jocoyn describes, socialization is not enough. It takes innate genetic soundness. This has to be bred for, and police/military take it to another level....but I like to focus on urban SAR or seeing eye dogs, probably 75% of GS today will wash out of these venues for a variety of reasons associated with nerve strength. Like I said, this isn't about knocking title or saying certs are everything, it's about a mindset that focuses on producing dogs that can work by thinking as opposed to rote. My only issue with agility is it doesn't take nerve strength to do it, and nerve strength is the most lacking element of the breed today.


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## Tim Connell

Great post, Cliff.

This is why every facet of the dog's makeup needs to be probed. Sometimes the qualities sought are things that are intangible, and not easily measured on a static measurement scale.

Evaluation of nerve, drives, environmental stability, and so on often needs to be an ongoing, long term evaluation.

I recall a conversation we had among a mixed group of sport and police dog people. The sport dog people of course many times have bragging rights on the precision obedience, footstep to footstep tracking, and full grip sleeve biting. A friend then remarked words to the effect of: "When you are done with all that pretty sport stuff, make sure to train the article search, and either narcotics or explosive detection, all the agility and environmental stuff, area search, hard surface tracking, and get your dogs on the suit, hidden sleeve, and muzzle fighting, and then come talk to me." 

Bear in mind that we are all friends...but some good harassment now and then is good...but it definitely drives home that a police dog- *a good police dog*...has to perform a great variety of tasks, on demand, cold, with no warmup, in an environment the dog and handler have never seen before. This can tell a lot about the dog.

I'm sure other venues, whether sport, SAR, etc. help peel back the layers of the onion, and expose dog's raw abilities, all in different ways. I like seeing a dog that can dabble in several different training styles, environments, sports venues, etc. I feel this can give you a better sense of what is genetic, what is training, and to help give an honest assessment of the dog...that is if someone can handle the truth of what their dog really is...but that's a whole other issue!


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## mycobraracr

Thanks jocoyn, cliff and tim. This has all been very interesting. I have been trying to think of ways to see through training and really see what dogs are made of. It seems really hard to do these days. Short of dogs I have personally worked I have a hard time telling. Bringing another thread into this, how can a pedigree tell you nerve? What sort of tests does a PD or SAR team do to test nerve? What are they/you looking for?


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## Gwenhwyfair

The problem is the vast majority of citizens aren't looking for nor really need a good police dog. I work with the general pet owning public every day and the truth of the matter is most people aren't even interested in basic OB training. They take the dog to the dog park, watch it play whilst chatting with friends and then go home.

Someone like myself enjoys learning about IPO. Maybe if I were younger I would have taken a different path (mounted patrol or K9 handler) but I'm 50 so this is all I've got and all that a lot people have, dogs that probably won't cut it on a police force....and the bragging stuff, well that's just some egos talking. 

Anyhoo, in blue, well said. :thumbup:







Tim Connell said:


> Great post, Cliff.
> 
> This is why every facet of the dog's makeup needs to be probed. Sometimes the qualities sought are things that are intangible, and not easily measured on a static measurement scale.
> 
> Evaluation of nerve, drives, environmental stability, and so on often needs to be an ongoing, long term evaluation.
> 
> I recall a conversation we had among a mixed group of sport and police dog people. The sport dog people of course many times have bragging rights on the precision obedience, footstep to footstep tracking, and full grip sleeve biting. A friend then remarked words to the effect of: "When you are done with all that pretty sport stuff, make sure to train the article search, and either narcotics or explosive detection, all the agility and environmental stuff, area search, hard surface tracking, and get your dogs on the suit, hidden sleeve, and muzzle fighting, and then come talk to me."
> 
> Bear in mind that we are all friends...but some good harassment now and then is good...but it definitely drives home that a police dog- *a good police dog*...has to perform a great variety of tasks, on demand, cold, with no warmup, in an environment the dog and handler have never seen before. This can tell a lot about the dog.
> 
> I'm sure other venues, whether sport, SAR, etc. help peel back the layers of the onion, and expose dog's raw abilities, all in different ways. I like seeing a dog that can dabble in several different training styles, environments, sports venues, etc. I feel this can give you a better sense of what is genetic, what is training, and to help give an honest assessment of the dog...that is if someone can handle the truth of what their dog really is...but that's a whole other issue!


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## Xeph

> but people today breed FOR drives and conformation first!


It's true. They do. And it is a big problem. I do actually intend to breed dogs for work (SDs), and many of the "working lines" out there today are NOT working lines. They are sport lines, and they are poor candidates for service work.

That is not to say that you cannot find a candidate in the "working lines" that is suitable for SD work, but getting a dog for service is extremely hard to begin with, and the way dogs are bred these days has made it even harder.


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## cliffson1

The issue is what is the responsibility of the breeder? Should the breeder reflect owner values or standard values? Should the breeder breed dogs to encourage every and any one to want a GS or should the breeder breed for correct temperament and function and understand that it may limit who seeks to own this breed?
Folks, one of the reason so many of the breed end up in shelters and rescues,(besides popularity and unfortunate circumstances), is that BREEDERS are breeding dogs that do not have appropriate nerve strength resulting in 1) the large volume of the breed, 2) the large number of dogs that have behavior or management issues( like inability to cap drives from one world and uncharacteristic shyness and fear aggression from another world), necessitating dogs being dumped into shelters and rescues. Some of these breeders only have titled dogs, some of them have untitled dogs, the problem is the lack of integrity and discipline to the breed standard. I don't expect owners to be knowledgeable about training, pedigrees, history, genetics, causation, etc, but I do expect breeders to put the standard above personal desires, organizations, ribbons, peer adoration, and the Amen section of owners that react with emotion to dog issues. Breeders have to have the integrity to not say the emperor has clothes when they don't, it doesn't have to be done ignorantly, but the truth should be told. Breeders have to have the strength to not be tossed to and fro by every fad or doctrine. There is no linear way to assure a good breeder, but good breeding starts with what is the breeder attempting to produce by what they emphasize in their stock and selection. Do they immediately correct deficiencies when they arise, or eliminate breeding stock they like but is lacking, or refuse to breed for the less informed,......these and other reasons are why I value dogs that are judged by mission oriented goals that usually require certifications, not that certifications is the answer alone, there is no singular answer.....but the mindset to produce thinking and courageous dogs( which has to place nerve first), above the artificial superficial goals that are the destination of reputable breeders today....sport, show, and pet.
Folks, thanks for indulging me and my rant, I will bring this forth again in 2014 if I am blessed enough to be here.....lol


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## björn

The only problems with breeding certified workingdogs is that both selection and certfication vary between countries and even states in US I guess. The homeland of the GSD is also demanding SCH-titles and a certain conformation, hence you never see much servicedogs in their breedings what I´ve seen. But sure, a demanding certification and then a dog that also in the real work function well year after yeras is more proven than just a SCH-titled dog for me.

So in the end is up to use what tests/titles you have in a country and enough wise breeders to be able to know what it takes to be a good dog for the police if the GSD should improve, I guess in a smaller european country it´s easier to move towards a common goal if there are enough breeders with the same mindset. Here in sweden I would say we don´t need more test and titles, it´s already a bunch of those besides IPO, and servicedogs is used also in breedings quite much. The future of the working GSD here I would say is enough people intressted in working GSDs, this is true also for the rest of europe but not all countries have the same options when it comes to testing/titles. Maybe it would be good if germany due to it´s size and inflence would have some form of testing besides SCH, or add a few things in SCH to make it a litlle harder and more in line with policework, why not some form of difficult serarchwork that demands certain willignes to work long without giving up.

The focus on beauty and conformation in german workinglines is also probably affecting the working dog in a wrong way, I mean look at this video and his fathers pedigree below, a policedog spezialized for detecting bodyfluids, his father is from a very long line of servicedog breeding where shows and beauty wasn´t a factor for selection neither SCH, only serviceodogs, still this dog is very pretty for me and has a working structure that should be encouraged by breeders and was the norm earlier in the breed
VGTV

Hs 9587 Ibex


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## cliffson1

Bjorn, I have said on many occaisons that I think Sweden has this breeding thing correct. What you described is more of the way I think it should be....but Sweden has shown an independence from the SV for many many years. The use of police dogs in good breeding program has been in place for many years. Again, it is a mindset, 95% of top working sport breeders wouldn't use a police dog for breeding unless it is involved in some competition that they think the sport world would be able to see like DPO. Otherwise, sport people will tell you they are not against using police dogs or SAR dogs, but the list of excuses for actual implementation is so long it's laughable.....kinda like when show people tell you they are want good temperament and you see them run to the next GV with a nice shoulder, or V1 dog with Seiger parents....they really weren't serious because the litter will lose status and ego.....like those things pass through the genes....lol.


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## onyx'girl

> I have said on many occaisons that I think Sweden has this breeding thing correct. What you described is more of the way I think it should be....but Sweden has shown an *independence from the SV for many many years*


hmmmm.....


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## GSDElsa

People keep referring to "good" police dogs in this thread. I think that's what needs to be remembered--there are as many bad working dogs out there as there are dogs with titles. It really comes down to the individual dog and neither a title or a working certificate are better than the other.

That's why it's important to do your research.

I certainly know titles are a joke in a lot of instances (but after doing SAR for awhile too, I know certificates can be a joke too!), but there are plenty of good breeders who "just" title their dogs out there. 

I don't know if the "negatives" people are always talking about are as widespread as people claim they are or if I just train with people who don't fit that mold so I tend to not think that (not that I'm not delusional it's not true in a lot of instances). My club will bring in non-SchH people for clinics, do protection work in the woods, or do "building" type work. Just last weekend Medo was wrasslin' with a "bad guy" in the back of a barn while the both of them were wrapped around a big blue tarp.


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## björn

Yes cliff, it´s nice we don´t need to follow the german system I think, especially if this makes it hard for very good workingdogs to be used if they aren´t pretty enough or has the demanded SCH-title. I don´t agree all titles are equall and not better than other, a policedog with a good approved selectiontest plus his certificationprogram is showing a higher minimum standard than a SCH or other sporttitle only. But as I said, this is of course depending on what a given country has for types of certifications and selection for a policedog, and you shouldn´t avoid a very good SCH-titled dog and choose a lesser policedog, but this also mean the breeder must know what to look for and not only breeding a dog becaus he is a WUSV SCH champion with "nice" conformation.

But even the best sports and tests are useless if fewer people are into workingdog sports, this may be a problem, but that only makes it more important to use also dogs in service for breeding. It´s not super easy to find good GSDs breedingdogs that are fit for service or demanding workingdog programs and also produce good health, finding ones that can do decent IPO and are not so healthy you have a larger genepool to choose from.


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## BritneyP

GSDElsa said:


> People keep referring to "good" police dogs in this thread. I think that's what needs to be remembered--there are as many bad working dogs out there as there are dogs with titles. It really comes down to the individual dog and neither a title or a working certificate are better than the other.
> 
> That's why it's important to do your research.
> 
> I certainly know titles are a joke in a lot of instances (but after doing SAR for awhile too, I know certificates can be a joke too!), but there are plenty of good breeders who "just" title their dogs out there.
> 
> I don't know if the "negatives" people are always talking about are as widespread as people claim they are or if I just train with people who don't fit that mold so I tend to not think that (not that I'm not delusional it's not true in a lot of instances). My club will bring in non-SchH people for clinics, do protection work in the woods, or do "building" type work. Just last weekend Medo was wrasslin' with a "bad guy" in the back of a barn while the both of them were wrapped around a big blue tarp.



I'm quite late to this thread as I don't visit the forum often, but I couldn't agree with this post more! 

There are so many horrible police dogs out there, as well as SAR dogs that are actively "working" and couldn't air scent their way out of a wet paper bag.

For me, I believe that there are SO many people breeding GSDs in this country alone, an absurd amount of people, really.. I choose to only breed titled dogs because I feel that there just NEEDS to be some sort of reference point as to the credibility of your breeding program. As a most basic level of expectancy, all of my dogs better be capable of working in dark rooms, on slick floors, etc and be able to function in places they have never been before. However, I don't need all my breeding dogs to crush hidden sleeves and be able to hard surface track for miles. I expect them to display strong genetic abilities and show that they also have the nerve to do what they were trained to do somewhere other than a trial field... even if that is just doing a bark and hold in the dark in a building.

All that being said, I still think you have to have something to reference back to regarding the quality and abilities of your breeding dogs. You may be the most reputable, knowledgable individual of the breed and of working dogs, but there are just as many backyard, hillbilly breeders who say their dogs are super awesome they don't need to title them and they "sold some police dogs" to some random Podunk department as there are breeders who breed titled dogs that are giant nervebags with awful temperaments. 

The point of that convoluted post was that it can and does easily go both ways and making generalized statements like "titles mean nothing" is just as valuable as making statements like, "no untitled dog should be bred".


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## NancyJ

No doubt a lot of SAR dogs have nerve issues or just don't have the drive to do the job. So when I see "SAR" dogs on a breeders website it means nothing. I wind up talking with people when I see impressive dogs at seminars and gather info on "where did you get that dog" and vice versa. Without the titles I think you have to get out and see.

But of course you could say the same of sport and I am not sure a certification is going to tell you that. It needs people pushing the dogs, as you say, dark rooms, slick surfaces, noise, strong odors, flashing lights, etc. Then I hear of folks who dogs have never been at a search scene until they are certified. We have folks bring them out but not work them. Need to see how they do in the car, around the helicopters, the flashing lights, ocassional sirens, crowds, night. They don't get a lot of attention as they are just there in their crates and taken out for potty breaks but you can tell a lot.


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## BritneyP

Completely agree, Nancy! I think we are on the same page


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## cliffson1

Did somebody say that titles mean nothing?


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## BritneyP

cliffson1 said:


> Did somebody say that titles mean nothing?


lol, actually Cliff, I believe in a different thread titled "to heck with titles" you made a statement about how you tried to say the same thing 5 years ago and people tried to run you off the forum.. but perhaps I misunderstood?

From my personal opinion, there are just far too many glorified BYBs using the whole "titles are meaningless" and "weak dogs can be titled" to be lazy and breed their otherwise unproven, and in most cases, poor representations of the breed. Titling takes time, money and energy and it's easy for a lot of people to just call themselves experts at reading dogs and at their dogs are "good enough" and they don't need to bother actually proving their dog's breed worthiness in any way. 

My question has always been.. if no titles/legitimate certificates, WHAT are these great dogs proving themselves in and WHO are the experts that are dictating that they are suitable for breeding and what is their expedience that allows them to make those determinations?


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## björn

BritneyP said:


> My question has always been.. if no titles/legitimate certificates, WHAT are these great dogs proving themselves in and WHO are the experts that are dictating that they are suitable for breeding and what is their expedience that allows them to make those determinations?


The breeders obviously choose what they think is suitabel for breeding regardless if the dog has titles or not, how many of the german showlines are selected because they are very good and healthy working dogs, not so many I suppose but they are still all titled. So in the end the titles doesn´t mean so much if the breeders are only seeing them as necessary evil that must be done to be able to breed. You can have very high titled dogs that still are not suited for breedings, maybe they have healthproblems or just doesn´t pass on the type of dog you want. I don´t think anyone saying don´t breed titled sportdogs, just that there are also real workingdogs that could be used in breedings, after all isn´t the dogs that works for real what we want anyway?

But of course, regardless if it´s a sportodg or police/servicedog you don´t breed only by looking at the titles/certifications if you are serious, but it´s only the breeder who can decide if a world champion in SCH is better than a less famous but good policedog.


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## x11

BritneyP said:


> *Titling takes time, money and energy*...


and hence corruption, politics, treachery and a good on line game were born to fill in the gaps.


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## Jack's Dad

*Titling takes time, money and energy

*And tells you nothing about what two dogs to put together*.

*Does anyone really believe that all the dogs titled are good breeding prospects?

björn; Your post is what I was trying to say in my "Heck with titles thread".

I never meant to imply titles in any venue or sport are bad. They just don't tell all one needs to know for breeding purposes.

Many champion race horses are duds at producing anything like themselves. Most of the mares used have never raced so how do the breeders know which mares will more likely produce winners?


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## BritneyP

x11 said:


> and hence corruption, politics, treachery and a good on line game were born to fill in the gaps.


unfortunately, that still does not negate the fact that they should be dismissed as a very basic reference to use when looking at a pair of breeding dogs, a litter, etc.

As I said, I certainly expect much more of my dogs than just to be titled, but I know for sure that if I am going to look at a litter of puppies to choose a dog for myself, you can be assured I'll be starting with titled parents and working from there.


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## cliffson1

Brittany, if I did not know of your involvement in working dogs of both sport and other venues, I wouldn't even waste my time responding to you. I have said on COUNTLESS occaisons that titles have value! If you look in this breeding subtopic, I started a thread on titles in which in the very first sentence I comment on the value of titles in people learning their dogs, strengthening their bond, developing their handling skills, etc. as for titles being a requisite for sound breeding, as Bjorn said, I think not. Most breeders that I respect give very little consideration to titles in making breeding decisions. Now that is not to say that they don't breed with titled dogs, because their are more sheep out their that if they don't see a title won't buy their dogs. The main importance of titles today is the marketing to sell dogs! It is needed for many to feel they have quality. But the breeders that I respect breed from knowledge of the dogs, breeder, and bloodlines. Whether the dog has a SCH one or SCH three is not as important as the other elements. The context of this thread is the VALUE of titles in breeding German Shepherds today that represent what the breed should be as opposed to certifications. Now many breeders of substance only use titled dogs, but the titled dogs don't make them breeders of substance....it's their knowledge of the dogs,lines, and breed. As long as 75% of the dogs in the motherland are highland, and possess titles, which you very very seldom see in any working capacity any more, than the argument that titles are requisite for breeding working dogs( that is what a GS is we can agree on?) is of very little value. 
No, I have never said a title is useless, LOL, and I am sure there are plenty of posts on this forum from me to support this,(Heck, I don't even say any of the lines are useless though some are used very sparingly), but titles are really a minor piece in breeding good GS these days, BECAUSE if you possess the knowledge of dogs, lines, and genetics you can breed good dogs with or without titles....conversely, if you don't know those elements and just breed titled dogs, I can easily point you to many many breeders that have lost their way in the breeding world. Titles a preference for some to breed quality....sure, but titles being important in quality breeding program....I think not. Attitudes by some that titles equal a superior dog....sure...lol....cause when you don't know much more than titles than you hang your shingle on the title.!


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## cliffson1

PS...Brittany, I have much respect for you as GS person....don't want that to get confused with my view on titles in the breeding equation.


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## carmspack

Cliff I could not agree with you more . 
Excellent thread . -- will have lots to provide after I get back


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## Ocean

It's a slippery slope to backyard breeding. I've seen titled dogs whose progeny was purchased by a knowledgeable breeder. Breeder doesn't title because he doesn't need to since he has titled dogs for years and is a real expert. A buyer comes along and purchases untitled dog - then without much knowledge - breeds. Now there's two generations of untitled dogs. Quality of the buyer goes down. Fact is you can't sell 2 generations of untitled dogs for a good price. Same applies if the first generation in the example had working certifications.

The point is one needs real expertise before breeding and that expertise has to be maintained in each and every single generation of dog - skip one generation and before you know it, the breed has gone to pot.


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## BritneyP

cliffson1 said:


> PS...Brittany, I have much respect for you as GS person....don't want that to get confused with my view on titles in the breeding equation.


As I do you! 


I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here, as I very much thing there are two sides to this equation. I do think you are absolutely correct about titling being just as much a marketing tool as anything else these days, but that sort of only further supports my point. There are literally thousands of people in this country alone who are GSD "breeders".. don't we need at least some place to start when attempting to weed out the good from the bad? the knowledgeable from the completely clueless? The people who have actually personally DONE anything with their dogs? 

I think I can safely say that I do not personally know of (doesn't mean there aren't any) any BYBs who train/compete/title their dogs.


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## Liberatore

Clif, I'm with you on this one. This topic comes up every so often, and I just answered a very similar question on the vom Dom Burgerland forum, so I'm just going to quote myself here. The main thing about breeding though, is not titles, certifications, or lack thereof, it's breeder integrity, vision for what they want to produce and knowledge to be able to produce it.

"What we are looking to produce:
drive levels that allow the dog to search for 8+hr days, and still want to go back out the next day for SAR work, that allow a dog to conduct car search after car search for hours at a time and still want to go to the next car to search and see if odor is there. Confidence that allows a dog to jump out of a car at a place they've never been to in their life, enter a dark building they've never been in, and go into it without a handler, completely on their own, and find a person they've never met before that may be hiding somewhere inside. The confidence to be flown on a plane to a place they've never been, taken to a collapsed building, told to search stories up on uneven, shaky and insecure footing, possibly while having earthquake aftershocks, and find a buried person, for days on end. The confidence level that makes them absolutely own every place they step foot. Fight that makes them want to completely dominate their opponent, not just bite and hang on. Controllability that makes them want to work with their handler, yet not so much that they rely on their handler. The agility to go over under and through any man-made or natural obstacle that may be in their way during any of this. Tracking ability that allows them to follow a day old track over a couple miles without giving up, without becoming hectic if they lose the trail, and the endurance to do so and still fight someone at the end of it. The German Shepherd temperament that allows them to play with the kids and be a pet in their off hours, possibly even go out and move the sheep or cows if their handler needs their help doing so. And the health that allows all this to be possible."

Ang


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## BritneyP

Ocean said:


> It's a slippery slope to backyard breeding. I've seen titled dogs whose progeny was purchased by a knowledgeable breeder. Breeder doesn't title because he doesn't need to since he has titled dogs for years and is a real expert. A buyer comes along and purchases untitled dog - then without much knowledge - breeds. Now there's two generations of untitled dogs. Quality of the buyer goes down. Fact is you can't sell 2 generations of untitled dogs for a good price. Same applies if the first generation in the example had working certifications.
> 
> The point is one needs real expertise before breeding and that expertise has to be maintained in each and every single generation of dog - skip one generation and before you know it, the breed has gone to pot.


Agreed! and I think that is my biggest concern.. 

Even if someone is knowledgeable and has a GREAT litter on the ground out of two untitled parents, how is the new GSD puppy buyer going to be able to seek that person out and set them apart from anyone else and what tangible criteria are they going to be able to use? 

It would be just as likely for them to unsuspectingly walk into a BYBs place and end up with a puppy from them.


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## Liberatore

BritneyP said:


> Agreed! and I think that is my biggest concern..
> 
> Even if someone is knowledgeable and has a GREAT litter on the ground out of two untitled parents, how is the new GSD puppy buyer going to be able to seek that person out and set them apart from anyone else and what tangible criteria are they going to be able to use?
> 
> It would be just as likely for them to unsuspectingly walk into a BYBs place and end up with a puppy from them.


See, to me it's not about pairing dogs to be able to sell the puppies, it's about pairing dogs to produce working dogs. So I don't really care about titles or trying to market puppies (though I do sell pups too), just producing a good dog that works it's rear off as an adult.

Ang


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## Jack's Dad

I don't think it's as simple as backyard breeders vs reputable breeders.
I live in California and there is no end to breeders with titled dogs.
They may even be good in there own minds. They are not (many of them) breeding the kind of dogs that Ang is talking about.

Most are breeding for show or sport and if that's what one wants then they can supply that market. 

As a buyer, I want a dog like Ang or Cliff are talking about. It's difficult to try to find a dog like that (generally speaking). There are many breeders with titled dogs that I wouldn't take a dog from if they gave it to me.

It's a jungle out there for buyers.


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## BritneyP

Liberatore said:


> See, to me it's not about pairing dogs to be able to sell the puppies, it's about pairing dogs to produce working dogs. So I don't really care about titles or trying to market puppies (though I do sell pups too), just producing a good dog that works it's rear off as an adult.
> 
> Ang


that's probably a large variable, I'm sure.. if I were to venture a guess though, I would say most breeders are not in a situation where they keep back a lot of dogs from each of their litters. I don't think any working line breeder I consider reputable "pairs dogs to sell puppies", but they also don't breed with the intention of not selling any of the puppies in the litter, either. I personally don't sell dogs for a living and I try to keep my number of dogs at home manageable because I prefer they don't sit in kennels. Thus, I really don't keep puppies back unless it is specifically for myself. 

That being said, my perspective would be like that of many other breeders I think.. what makes our litters any better than anyone elses? I want the best homes possible for my puppies and preferably, I want them going to people who have educated themselves, done their research and understand what some of the minimum criteria might be for selecting a breeder for themselves.


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## BritneyP

Jack's Dad said:


> As a buyer, I want a dog like Ang or Cliff are talking about. It's difficult to try to find a dog like that (generally speaking). There are many breeders with titled dogs that I wouldn't take a dog from if they gave it to me.
> 
> It's a jungle out there for buyers.


it sure is! however, finding those type of dogs is really not as difficult as you may have experience with. I don't live in California, so I can't speak about the breeders there. I can however, tell you that there are breeders all over the country who breed dogs suitable to work.. and work well. They may come from titled dogs or untitled dogs, but when seeking out a new dog or puppy, how do you distinguish between good, bad, stellar, garbage, etc if no working titles/certificates are present? 

I am not at all referencing show line dogs.. I won't even speak about them because they are not dogs I would own and I have zero experience with them by choice. I am referring exclusively to working line breeders.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Britney, the sun is out here, hopefully up in your part of the south east too, better take advantage of the break in the weather and get out there and train.....


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## Liberatore

BritneyP said:


> They may come from titled dogs or untitled dogs, but when seeking out a new dog or puppy, how do you distinguish between good, bad, stellar, garbage, etc if no working titles/certificates are present?


By what they produce, not what titles they breed.

Ang


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## BritneyP

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Britney, the sun is out here, hopefully up in your part of the south east too, better take advantage of the break in the weather and get out there and train.....


It's not out at all and should start raining again any time now, actually.. I am, however, taking advantage of my first day off in the last 45 days (gotta love Army schools) and vegging out in front of my computer all afternoon. Thanks though!


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## Ocean

Liberatore said:


> By what they produce, not what titles they breed.
> 
> Ang


Which the expert can do but the average buyer can not. Should the breed only be limited to experts?


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## Liberatore

Ocean said:


> Which the expert can do but the average buyer can not. Should the breed only be limited to experts?


Why can the average buyer not look at production? 

Ang


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## BritneyP

Ocean said:


> Which the expert can do but the average buyer can not. Should the breed only be limited to experts?


We'll be here forever, Ocean.. I feel like that is the very question I have been asking since I chimed in on this thread and it's only really been touched on by Cliff. 

I imagine this is why threads like this last for 20+ pages and there is never any resolution. Folks continue to breed their titled dogs, other folks continue to breed their untitled dogs. We all have justification in our own minds as to why we make the breeding choices that we do. Everyone is an expert...


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## BritneyP

Liberatore said:


> Why can the average buyer not look at production?
> 
> Ang



What, exactly, do you think they would be looking at? Production of what? Breeder so-and-so sold a couple "police dogs" or has some nice lines or has pretty dogs and their dogs have produced great because they tell you so?


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## Liberatore

BritneyP said:


> What, exactly, do you think they would be looking at? Production of what? Breeder so-and-so sold a couple "police dogs" or has some nice lines or has pretty dogs and their dogs have produced great because they tell you so?


For a pet? Production of healthy dogs that aren't scared of their own shadow to begin with.

For a working dog? Production of dogs working in the field they're looking to participate in.

It isn't really that hard. The problem is your 'average' buyer sees SchH3 and automatically thinks that makes a working dog, or a good dog. Titles can be even more deceptive to the 'average' buyer than anything.

And no, not because 'they' told us so, but because their buyers told us so - goes to production! 

Ang


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## x11

how many vendors buy dogs based on titles...or peds?


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## björn

If a buyer "needs" a sporttitle to know if the breeedingdogs is of good quality then I suppose they don´t know so much anyway and hence the title doesn´t give them much help , maybe even makes them easier to fool if a breeder wants to. Maybe it´s not the same in US but normally a workingdog breeder wants to put their dogs with people who wants a dog for service or some kind of work, so people that are totally green and wants a pet is not a priority anyway.

However, no sporttitle doesn´t mean the dog is untested, it could be some form of servicedog or a dog that you seen in training but have only the minimum mandatory health or workingtests demanded, which obviously differs from country to country. If BYBs are a concern maybe it would be better to have some basic health and temperament-test that is a must, this would at least be a starting point for both buyers and breeders, in places where this isn´t already a must. 

Not even in europe all dogs are sporttitled if they don´t follow the german way of breeding, they are a blend of sport and servicedogs depending on where you live and what regulations you need to follow. The question if titles must be included is then where to draw the line, for me it would be foolish needing an IPO title to be able to breed real workingdogs, I mean sporttitles are a substitute for "real" work anyway, or? Not even the "educated" trainers and potential puppybuers always thinks the same what type of dog is good, someone may be very impressed and intressted in the more "modern" sportdog, some may be looking for a dog for dual purpose policework, so I share cliffs concern if some of the top sportdogs today really are the best alternative if the aim is not purely sport.

A dual purpose policedog who also was trained for special search in catastrophic events, was considrered an effective policedog in norway, strong in different environmnets and also could differ between work and free time,why wold such a dog be neglected because he "only" is a policedog and has only his policedogcertification to show as "proof" of any titles?
braxwmv - YouTube!


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## cliffson1

You see Britney you make my case when you say what you say about show lines. All the show lines in Germany have titles....the same titles as the ones you start with before you consider a breeding....so why do you diss the SL? Because you have the knowledge to know that the titles don't make the majority of those dogs what you think are minimum standards for the breed. Now 75 to 80 % of the German dogs are show line....so logically following this thinking, the titles which you feel are a start; in Germany are awarded to the majority of dogs that you have stated you wouldn't own. So what kind of safeguard for the breed is this title performing.....again, I do not have a problem with titles. But here's the problem....in the beginning in Germany performance titles were the priority requisite for breed worthiness and the show rating was really incidental....today the show rating is the important element for the majority of dogs in Germany and the performance title is now incidental; as the emphasis has changed, so has the value of the title in terms of breed worthiness. 
The bottom line is something is wrong if the majority of GS in Germany are not capable of LE/Military work....is it possible titles are part of the problem?.


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## onyx'girl

> is it possible titles are part of the problem?


The breeders who are sending away their dogs to be titled is but one of the the problems. 
If you aren't working your own dogs, how do you know(or acknowledge!) their strengths/weaknesses. 
Send a dog away for three weeks, it comes back a 3. Nice....


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## x11

newbs will sometimes get a great dog more than they can achieve with and experts will just as many times get wash outs, in fact i think (don't know) that the expert wash out more dogs than newbs do.


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## cliffson1

Not this one...lol


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## x11

maybe true for you but i would like to know how many pups bart bellon, micheal ellis etc DON'T get to the podium out of all the ones they start, do they even "waste" much time if the prospect doesn't show them something right quick regardless of the titles/peds of the parents. all that titles tell maybe is where not to look for their next trial dog which in itself can save a lot of time i guess.


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## mycobraracr

x11 said:


> maybe true for you but i would like to know how many pups bart bellon, micheal ellis etc DON'T get to the podium out of all the ones they start, do they even "waste" much time if the prospect doesn't show them something right quick regardless of the titles/peds of the parents. all that titles tell maybe is where not to look for their next trial dog which in itself can save a lot of time i guess.


 
Most LE and "top sport" people start with green dogs not puppies. That limits the wash out rate because you have a better idea of what you're getting.


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## x11

so they don't just buy dogs who's parents have the highest titles or most titles in a ped?

are cops ped nerds, title junkies, breed chroniclers or they just know and care about the thing at the end of the leash that may just as well have just jumped out of a black box at them.


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## carmspack

BYBs may not be handling and titling their own dogs , but there are enough of them , who BUY titled dogs and breed them -- why not , they are worth more $$$$ and move out the door faster . One of these was discussed recently. More than 10 litters per year . 
Cliff and Libertore and Bjorn -- I agree.

A working dog can not be molly coddled along. It either can or it can not.
Socialization is not conditioning .
It is providing exposure to a variety of locations and situations to observe how the dog handles himself . 
One major PD would test dogs by taking them to an unfamiliar location , with an unfamiliar person and run them through one battery of challenges which included tests for hunt and search , tracking multi surface , searching independently sans handler for something (ball?) inside an empty school bus -- shed , building, gun fire distant , gun fire close (friendly) , going through a crowd , piles of lumber or other obstacles in the environment . Then they would go through one of the all glass , white floored terminals at the airport. It was surprising how many dogs either refused to enter or became rigid . They would fail . Dogs that passed that part were put on moving conveyance , the moving sidewalk , escalator, elevator . 
In some evaluations dogs would hesitate to boldly dive into high grass , brush , out of site , to find their ball even though the ball play was good as long as the ball was in sight. 

Dogs need to perform no matter what the weather . Been at trials where dogs lost a lot of their oomph when they got wet with rain . Attitude for work soured.


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> BYBs may not be handling and titling their own dogs , but there are enough of them , who BUY titled dogs and breed them -- why not , they are worth more $$$$ and move out the door faster . One of these was discussed recently. More than 10 litters per year .
> Cliff and Libertore and Bjorn -- I agree.
> 
> A working dog can not be molly coddled along. It either can or it can not.
> Socialization is not conditioning .
> It is providing exposure to a variety of locations and situations to observe how the dog handles himself .
> One major PD would test dogs by taking them to an unfamiliar location , with an unfamiliar person and run them through one battery of challenges which included tests for hunt and search , tracking multi surface , searching independently sans handler for something (ball?) inside an empty school bus -- shed , building, gun fire distant , gun fire close (friendly) , going through a crowd , piles of lumber or other obstacles in the environment . Then they would go through one of the all glass , white floored terminals at the airport. It was surprising how many dogs either refused to enter or became rigid . They would fail . Dogs that passed that part were put on moving conveyance , the moving sidewalk , escalator, elevator .
> In some evaluations dogs would hesitate to boldly dive into high grass , brush , out of site , to find their ball even though the ball play was good as long as the ball was in sight.
> 
> Dogs need to perform no matter what the weather . Been at trials where dogs lost a lot of their oomph when they got wet with rain . Attitude for work soured.


Isn't that something all of PD does? 

I know in Germany that is the norm. If a dog has never seen shiny tiles or stairs and shows a tiny bit of insecurity, that's it. Dog goes back to the breeder/owner. 

That being said, if you live in the desert you are rather limited in what you can expose the dogs to, BUT a sound dog, should overcome situations he hasn't been in, easily. 

One of my dogs has been kept outside and never seen stairs or a shiny floor. Within seconds the dog was prancing down the hallway with a ball in her mouth and play tug of war with soldiers, pulling them down the hallway in an office chair. 

I am still debating whether I should breed Nala and Yukon. Genetically an absolute great fit. Neither dog titled but health tested. But who am I going to sell those pups to? There should be some amazing pups coming out of that combination. Her next heat is it. Either I'm going to do it or not. It's the last chance, if it's not already to late.


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## carmspack

Mrs K . That is my experience. All sorts of surprize elements which may include the dog needing to enter a windowless dark building , negotiate a staircase and get a pop out "attack" . Another test was to be tied out in a wooded area . Have volunteers go about their business passing by , then after a while where every thing is quiet there is a pop out threat . The dog's actions need to be appropriate. The handler is not the vendor . In both instances he has been taken away. I see where some of the Swedish mentality test has been employed. 
You can't train or prepare for this and the dog's core temperament is tested and exposed . There is no pattern , no routine . Dogs which respond well are SOUND .

Sport does not test for any of this . Show does not test for any of this. Nor environmental soundness .

Not just important for service dogs , whether personal assistance, SAR (I am meaning the real thing) , police which includes the specialties such as explosives, arson-accelerant --- but for the average person who wants a safe , trouble free companion. We don't need pet people worrying about thunder shirts , and all the many over the top reactive aggression , or dogs with no desire to connect who could not give a flying fig about the handler or family, or dogs who are trotted off to a behaviourist.
A good dog is a good companion. By nature.

In the US there are k9 handlers which go out and by dogs for and by themselves and put them into service without much training or some schutzhund training , and without certification . Performance ideals are personal rather than by some written standard Manual .


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## cliffson1

Hey X11..... Would I qualify as ped nerd?.....just curious.


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> Mrs K . That is my experience. All sorts of surprize elements which may include the dog needing to enter a windowless dark building , negotiate a staircase and get a pop out "attack" . Another test was to be tied out in a wooded area . Have volunteers go about their business passing by , then after a while where every thing is quiet there is a pop out threat . The dog's actions need to be appropriate. The handler is not the vendor . In both instances he has been taken away. I see where some of the Swedish mentality test has been employed.
> You can't train or prepare for this and the dog's core temperament is tested and exposed . There is no pattern , no routine . Dogs which respond well are SOUND .
> 
> Sport does not test for any of this . Show does not test for any of this. Nor environmental soundness .
> 
> Not just important for service dogs , whether personal assistance, SAR (I am meaning the real thing) , police which includes the specialties such as explosives, arson-accelerant --- but for the average person who wants a safe , trouble free companion. We don't need pet people worrying about thunder shirts , and all the many over the top reactive aggression , or dogs with no desire to connect who could not give a flying fig about the handler or family, or dogs who are trotted off to a behaviourist.
> A good dog is a good companion. By nature.
> 
> In the US there are k9 handlers which go out and by dogs for and by themselves and put them into service without much training or some schutzhund training , and without certification . Performance ideals are personal rather than by some written standard Manual .


Absolutely agree with you. 

The test by the German Police is very similar. The dog was tied out in the woods all by himself. It is the first test, if the dog failed they did not bother with further testing. 

That is why I personally want the real thing, always! 

No need for thunder shirts, etc. 

One thing that saddens me is that this area is overrun with bad breeders. It is horrible how many byb shepherd breeders are in this area. Especially out of pulaski come many, many unstable dogs and I had to tell 4 clients that their dogs will not get any better no matter how much they socialize. They dont get that it is in the dogs genes, because they are so conditioned in their believe that everything can be solved by socializing, they cant even see it. 
That breeder is continuing to post ads on craigslist. It is frustrating...


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## mycobraracr

carmspack said:


> Socialization is not conditioning .
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> This tells me a lot. I was always told that socialization is conditioning the dogs to as many things as possible. Makes sense why a well bred dog wouldn't need as much.
> 
> 
> 
> x11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> so they don't just buy dogs who's parents have the highest titles or most titles in a ped?
> 
> are cops ped nerds, title junkies, breed chroniclers or they just know and care about the thing at the end of the leash that may just as well have just jumped out of a black box at them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has been my experience that most K9 handlers don't know anything about their dog other than he does cool stuff and they get bonus pay. Now the people buy the dogs and bringing them in for training definitely look at the pedigree titles/certifications. Sure, the most important thing is the individual dog, but how do you know where to start looking if you don't have a pedigree or working titles? You cant waist money testing every dog you come across. You have to have a starting criteria.
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs.K said:
> 
> 
> 
> No need for thunder shirts, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What! No need for thunder shirts? Just when you think you know somebody. I'm taking my thunder shirt and I'm going home!  Hahahaha
Click to expand...


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## carmspack

"Sure, the most important thing is the individual dog, but how do you know where to start looking if you don't have a pedigree or working titles? You cant waist money testing every dog you come across. You have to have a starting criteria."

depends on who you are talking about now.

the breeder absolutely does need to know the pedigree and have a knowledge of the genetics . When I look at pedigrees I don't even look at the titles . I look at the families the dog comes from , what the results can be whether intentional (good) or unintentional , good or bad (useful but not as predictable). If I do look at titles it is usually FH - 2's and 3's nice to see . As a breeder you are looking far ahead into the future and want to see benefits short and long term.

If I were an importer - broker , which I am not , I would look at the pedigree and the titles . You are more or less looking at the possibilities that "this" individual dog has , short term , immediate.

If you are a PD or any other agency procuring , including brokers, you are looking for a resource or vendor who knows their dogs , and has done all the testing and winnowing of the chaff beforehand and can provide a dog that fits the bill , accurately and honestly presented , reliably and dependably.


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## carmspack

let me explain this "what the results can be whether intentional (good) or unintentional , good or bad (useful but not as predictable). "

when you look at a pedigree you can see the construction or lack of , the deliberate intentions , or the lack of.

You start seeing a theme or a goal . There is a predictability. That , for breeding is good . You need to decide if that theme or goal of the genetics is good for you and for where you want to head. 
When you have dogs bred that are choosing titles or choosing dogs with some public recognition you can have an unintentional accumulation of too much of a good thing and then create something undesirable -- not a good thing . A rough example would be the advert that brags about a pedigree that has multiple BSP's concentrated in few generations , the ones that count.


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## mycobraracr

I agree with you. That's why we are seeing the lack of balance that we see today. Example the prey monster sport dogs. I also think that other things come into play there but... 

What I have started doing is looking at pedigrees and dogs, and seeing what they produce. If dogs A and B produced a top level schH dog, a SAR dog and a service dog then I would think those are dogs to look for in a pedigree. I'm also learning that just because one dog was a "top dog" does not mean it will produce. I can think of a couple examples of dogs that were top sport dogs but their unknown sibling actually produced better. 

I really think most of us are saying the same thing just wording it differently haha.


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## björn

Titles are good as one way to evaluate the dog, regardless if it´s a certification for a policedog or a SCH-title. However many are obvious happy with dogs that can do just the minimum, like being able to pass a SCH-title. If all breeders were forced to just breed on dogs who has passed a rather difficult sporttitle then I suppose this would be good as a minimum standard, problem is then many dogs wouldn´t been used in breedings and it´s hard to get enough people intressted to do this. That´s why the servicedogs or sometimes good dogs but with no titles except the basic requirements could be intressting to use, how well this works out is no different compared to using sportodgs, you still need to look at what the dog produce to see if it good for breeding or not.

SCH as the most common title I guess is not that bad, it´s just some use it more as a competition only and may breed for mostly that, so if a dog has a SCH-title the points or placings is not that intressting if the dog in question doesn´t have the qualities you are intressted in. 

However I understand the dilemma with breeders who just breed dogs with no type of health or workingtests. But let´s face it, the working GSDs are mostly produced in europe, and there a dog without some form of tests for health and working aren´t breed(maybe not all countries) if they are they are not likely to do much impact for the working GSDs. Speaking of policedogs there are also same certifications and about the same tests within the countries, at least in the smaller countries like sweden,denmark,finland, norway , so it´s not like a policedog could just be a dog someone like and there is no certification and quite demanding selection to see if it´s suited. How it works in germany I don´t know when speaking of servicedogs, but I suppose they also must pass a certification at least, so why a german policedog must need an IPO-title I don´t know, if fewer people are doing dogsports in germnay maybe they should consider using more servicedogs in breedings, or why not adapt the sport of SCH a bit more to what also is wanted for a servicedog, so it´s not only a way of see which handler can train the dogs for best points in routines that may not be the best for what a servicedog needs.


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## Mrs.K

björn said:


> Titles are good as one way to evaluate the dog, regardless if it´s a certification for a policedog or a SCH-title. However many are obvious happy with dogs that can do just the minimum, like being able to pass a SCH-title. If all breeders were forced to just breed on dogs who has passed a rather difficult sporttitle then I suppose this would be good as a minimum standard, problem is then many dogs wouldn´t been used in breedings and it´s hard to get enough people intressted to do this. That´s why the servicedogs or sometimes good dogs but with no titles except the basic requirements could be intressting to use, how well this works out is no different compared to using sportodgs, you still need to look at what the dog produce to see if it good for breeding or not.
> 
> SCH as the most common title I guess is not that bad, it´s just some use it more as a competition only and may breed for mostly that, so if a dog has a SCH-title the points or placings is not that intressting if the dog in question doesn´t have the qualities you are intressted in.
> 
> However I understand the dilemma with breeders who just breed dogs with no type of health or workingtests. But let´s face it, the working GSDs are mostly produced in europe, and there a dog without some form of tests for health and working aren´t breed(maybe not all countries) if they are they are not likely to do much impact for the working GSDs. Speaking of policedogs there are also same certifications and about the same tests within the countries, at least in the smaller countries like sweden,denmark,finland, norway , so it´s not like a policedog could just be a dog someone like and there is no certification and quite demanding selection to see if it´s suited. How it works in germany I don´t know when speaking of servicedogs, but I suppose they also must pass a certification at least, so why a german policedog must need an IPO-title I don´t know, if fewer people are doing dogsports in germnay maybe they should consider using more servicedogs in breedings, or why not adapt the sport of SCH a bit more to what also is wanted for a servicedog, so it´s not only a way of see which handler can train the dogs for best points in routines that may not be the best for what a servicedog needs.


You have to look at geographics.
In europe schh and ring is much easier to do. I went from a city with four clubs to a place where you cant find anything under 2 to 3 hours. 
Membership is not necessary in germany. You can easily train two to three times a week with very little cost involved. 

In the US, merely impossible.

My husband is a Soldier. We earn okay money but to be honest, SchH at this point is no longer affordable to us. I would have never thought in a million years, that a common sport, something that has always been part of my life and was always readily available to me in Germany is something I cannot afford here in the US. 
I also believe it becomes very frustrating and I am not the only one frustrated.

Especially when you really good dogs and you grew up with the system and want a litter to preserve a bloodline it gets even worse....

Geographics and the means to title a dog play a huge role in this too. 

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## Gwenhwyfair

My relatives in Germany comment on this as well. Good point Mrs. K. 


.....and no you are not the only one frustrated. 




Mrs.K said:


> You have to look at geographics.
> In europe schh and ring is much easier to do. I went from a city with four clubs to a place where you cant find anything under 2 to 3 hours.
> Membership is not necessary in germany. You can easily train two to three times a week with very little cost involved.
> 
> In the US, merely impossible.
> 
> My husband is a Soldier. We earn okay money but to be honest, SchH at this point is no longer affordable to us. I would have never thought in a million years, that a common sport, something that has always been part of my life and was always readily available to me in Germany is something I cannot afford here in the US.
> I also believe it becomes very frustrating and I am not the only one frustrated.
> 
> Especially when you really good dogs and you grew up with the system and want a litter to preserve a bloodline it gets even worse....
> 
> Geographics and the means to title a dog play a huge role in this too.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## martemchik

What Mrs. K described is the biggest reason why SchH titles won't be adopted as a minimum breeding test here in the United States. I live about an hour away from the closest Schutzhund club, and I consider myself to live in a fairly large city. Although the clubs aren't expensive (quite cheap actually if you don't consider gas and time), they are so far away that you really have to dedicate yourself to the sport and nothing else if you plan on doing it. The only people I know that actually head out to those clubs...do not have full time jobs.

Just south of me is Chicago. Although there are Schutzhund clubs there...they're extremely expensive to train at because of the cost of the facility. Shortage of helpers is also a big thing I hear around here all the time, people are trying to get me to learn to be a helper so that we could start working closer to here, but again...I don't have the time to do that (which sucks).

I think at the core of the discussion is trusting the breeder enough to know that when they do breed an untitled dog...they know what they're doing and they believe its a step in the right direction. But that amount of trust is very hard to come by as most puppy buyers probably have about an hour or less with a breeder before purchasing a pup. Without those titles (which this forum screams about) how do you possibly know that the breeder is breeding something worthwhile or just trying to make a quick buck off of an untitled dog.


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## Mrs.K

Honestly, where I live, people don't care about titles. People don't even know about titles. They buy their puppies at the pet store with a 2 week health warranty and "AKC" papers, or go to the nearest BYB that advertises on craigslist. 

I've been talking to a girl, tried to talk her out of breeding her dog. Nice looking male, but she had no clue whatsoever. She said that if a dog doesn't moan or groan than something is wrong with the dog and cannot be trusted. 
I asked her, who told her that. She said breeders. 
I told her that it wasn't true, she did not believe me and in the end called me a fat bitch and then left the group, deleted all her pictures. She just didn't want to hear it. 

Titling dogs is only important for a small group of people. The big majority, doesn't even know it exists at all. They have no idea what IPO, Schutzhund or Ringsport is and are probably more impressed if you tell them your dog is doing SAR because THAT they do know. 

When it comes to working dogs/working line dogs they know Police, Military, SAR and maybe Cadaver. Most can't even tell the difference between Therapy, Emotional Support or Service dogs. How do you expect the broad puplic to know what a SchH title is, or what it takes to title a dog. 

When I round up all the expenses I've had in the last three years. I put more than 10 000 dollars into Indra and all I've got to show for is her Off Trail Certificate and that she's well enough worked in Obedience. 
That's sad. That is really sad. 

In Germany, within the same time and not even half that money, she'd have a three. 

You don't pay the helpers. Club fee is 20 bucks a YEAR and all you got are your personal expenses, which are not nearly half as dramatic because you don't have the distance to drive. 

I wish my husband would have made an effort to stay in Germany.


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## mycobraracr

Where are all these clubs you guys talk about where the helper gets paid? I want to go there. Don't get me wrong, I get cut a break on my cost for training but I also buy all my own gear. I guess lately my trainer has been kicking me a few buck but I've also been going out there 5 days a week helping some people get ready for a trial. 

P.S. Not complaining. I do it because I love it.


----------



## x11

mycobraracr said:


> Where are all these clubs you guys talk about where the helper gets paid? I want to go there. Don't get me wrong, I get cut a break on my cost for training but I also buy all my own gear. I guess lately my trainer has been kicking me a few buck but I've also been going out there 5 days a week helping some people get ready for a trial.
> 
> P.S. Not complaining. I do it because I love it.


hey pal, x11 yr life coach here, tell ya what, surprise yr gf by when she gets home have yr suitcases packed, fly across the pacific 20 hours, have a great vacation let yr GF pet a stupid koala and you can decoy my boy $50/session cash. our dollar has been raping yours lately so. 

goal is to get my dog biting full in prey with a clear head, bonus cash if you can pet him after the session.

sound good?


----------



## björn

Mrs K, yes, if there aren´t many clubs or other activites you can work you dog in, then I guess US will not really be an important country as far as producing working GSDs for a very long time, hence maybe it´s more intressting what goes on in Europe. Question is if germany will also change in the future and find other ways to test breedingstock than just SCH, if fewer people are entering the sport then this also may be necessary at least from a servicedog perspective, but maybe they solve this problem by importing malinois from belgium/holland

Mandatory SCH-titles in germany I guess is also due to the fact that this is "the only game in town" for civilians, or? Don´t think so many would be keen on having that in other european countries where they also have other national workingprograms since long and hence don´t see the point in demanding SCH only, france has their ringsports, dutch and the swedes their own program, and also denmark have their PH-program besides SCH.


----------



## mycobraracr

x11 said:


> hey pal, x11 yr life coach here, tell ya what, surprise yr gf by when she gets home have yr suitcases packed, fly across the pacific 20 hours, have a great vacation let yr GF pet a stupid koala and you can decoy my boy $50/session cash. our dollar has been raping yours lately so.
> 
> goal is to get my dog biting full in prey with a clear head, bonus cash if you can pet him after the session.
> 
> sound good?


 
I'm packing as I type. Hahaha


----------



## Mrs.K

björn said:


> Mrs K, yes, if there aren´t many clubs or other activites you can work you dog in, then I guess US will not really be an important country as far as producing working GSDs for a very long time, hence maybe it´s more intressting what goes on in Europe. Question is if germany will also change in the future and find other ways to test breedingstock than just SCH, if fewer people are entering the sport then this also may be necessary at least from a servicedog perspective, but maybe they solve this problem by importing malinois from belgium/holland
> 
> Mandatory SCH-titles in germany I guess is also due to the fact that this is "the only game in town" for civilians, or? Don´t think so many would be keen on having that in other european countries where they also have other national workingprograms since long and hence don´t see the point in demanding SCH only, france has their ringsports, dutch and the swedes their own program, and also denmark have their PH-program besides SCH.


There are some excellent breeder and handlers out here. Either you have to live close, have to have your own resources or the money.

We are going to be stuck in this town until 2015. I have a really reLly nice bitch and hate to see that potential wasted. We dont even have obedience or agility all year round in our city....there is NOTHING here and that in a frickin military town with tons of dog owners... you would think there is something out here....

Actually, they are already doing it. Besides the SchH title there has always been the HGH and now you can also get a dog gekoered via the RH title. 
So they are already progressing. 


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## x11

mycobraracr said:


> I'm packing as I type. Hahaha


 
cool man, i will get cracking on the home brew 5.8%, i know you yankees drink crap beer so it will be a cultural uplift for you. the gf can amuse herself with the furry little marsupials while we drink, watch real football (full contact no padding) and you fight me dog.


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## Liberatore

I think this topic has taken a slight diversion from the intent of the original post. Cliff, correct me if I'm wrong, but your point (rant? ;-) was not one from the buyer perspective of 'how will I be able to tell a good breeder without titles" nor one of 'reasons why I don't title' but rather a breeders responsibility towards producing a sound, capable animal that can function as a service dog, and even a pet. The point being that the SchH title is bound by strict regulations and limits that do not adequately test breeding stock for use in the field, as can be illustrated by the vast number of show dogs that have SchH3/IPO3 behind their name and the complete lack of them in real working venues (with exceptions of course). The point was that breeders completely eliminate from the breeding pool strong, solid candidates based solely on their lack of a sport title, even if they are certified and proven on the street. That sound dogs, no matter their venue, title, or lack of title, should be looked at, evaluated and used for breeding to produce the future of the breed. Breeders have become too stuck on titles and lack the ability to actually read a dog, and a pedigree, to produce what the breed needs to continue and not become the next Dobermann or Rottweiler in the working world. 

I could be wrong though,
Ang


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## onyx'girl

Just looking at the current 'new posts' is sad.... 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/268786-traumatized-stairs.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/269042-6-month-old-timid-carrying-objects.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/269034-how-long-allergy-reaction-clear.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-bent-front-leg-open-paw-downed-pasterns.html


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ya know I don't get this reference to 'civilian outlet' and perhaps I misunderstand your intent however, there's a tone of if it's not closely associated with police or military it's not for the true GSD? 

My Opa was competing in SchH *prior* to WWII and my Uncle for many, many years after WWII. Neither of them were military or police.

I don't see in any of Capt. Von Stephanitz's writings where he bred the dogs ONLY for the purpose LE or Military.

It was a FARM dog for the most part amongst my family in Germany long before it became so popular a breed world wide.

Though he was a military man he in fact he founded the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde with Artur Meyer and three sheep masters, two factory owners, one architect, one mayor, one innkeeper and one magistrate as co-founders. 

Just sayin'......







björn said:


> Mrs K, yes, if there aren´t many clubs or other activites you can work you dog in, then I guess US will not really be an important country as far as producing working GSDs for a very long time, hence maybe it´s more intressting what goes on in Europe. Question is if germany will also change in the future and find other ways to test breedingstock than just SCH, if fewer people are entering the sport then this also may be necessary at least from a servicedog perspective, but maybe they solve this problem by importing malinois from belgium/holland
> 
> Mandatory SCH-titles in germany I guess is also due to the fact that this is "the only game in town" for civilians, or? Don´t think so many would be keen on having that in other european countries where they also have other national workingprograms since long and hence don´t see the point in demanding SCH only, france has their ringsports, dutch and the swedes their own program, and also denmark have their PH-program besides SCH.


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## carmspack

well then Gwenhwyfair then you just have to know that your Opa's Schutzhund prior to WW 11 was entirely different, as was the Schutzhund post that era .
The changes in the sport are one of the reasons the dogs are not the same .

there is a very interesting video that I provide about 3 years ago on this forum which showed the intake of dogs being volunteered for the war effort . Ordinary dogs put through their paces . They jumped barricades, ran through a barrage , showed energy and confidence and showed "naturally" hard when first time exposure to "man" being a threat .

Those dogs ran with the kids, drove around in the truck, shadowed the "master" got decent food and left overs, lived without much sophisticated veterinary attention , if any. So what happened. 
That is what the topic of this thread is .


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## Gwenhwyfair

He didn't use the dog for military or LE. I am addressing what seems to be an emphasis on the military and LE applications for the breed. That's *my* point.

There's a video of the German Shepherds practicing in a SchH club circa early 1930s that pops up here from time to time, I believe. Some of the comments made about those dogs were, well interesting.

I suspect in the near future dogs, of any breed, will probably see less and less use in military and LE as nano tech and robotics will probably replace them in many applications as motorized vehicles replaced calvery horses and mules. btw...


anyhoo, you guys carry on as I know you will! 






carmspack said:


> well then Gwenhwyfair then you just have to know that your Opa's Schutzhund prior to WW 11 was entirely different, as was the Schutzhund post that era .
> The changes in the sport are one of the reasons the dogs are not the same .
> 
> there is a very interesting video that I provide about 3 years ago on this forum which showed the intake of dogs being volunteered for the war effort . Ordinary dogs put through their paces . They jumped barricades, ran through a barrage , showed energy and confidence and showed "naturally" hard when first time exposure to "man" being a threat .
> 
> Those dogs ran with the kids, drove around in the truck, shadowed the "master" got decent food and left overs, lived without much sophisticated veterinary attention , if any. So what happened.
> That is what the topic of this thread is .


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## Mrs.K

What everyone forgets to say is how many dogs were destroyed in those good ol' days. 

The training methods were brutal and if a dog wasn't hard enough they quietly got rid of those dogs. The dogs weren't different back then. The training methods were. With todays training methods every dog can be titled no matter how crappy they used to be. 

I remember the good old days of the Bamboo sticks.

Take dogs to the test. Pull out a stick, give them the real hits. You will see as many dogs succeed and/or run as you saw back in the day. 

Hampton tested one of my dogs. Man you should have seen him hit Nala. They more pressure he put on her, they more she LOVED it and I've got it on video. She's not any different than the dogs we've had 20 years ago. 

What did we have back then? Do you really want to go back to the forced retrieve? 

I remember like it was yesterday. I don't EVER want to hear a dog scream like that ever again. I don't EVER want to see it again. 

How many dogs got broken in the process? How many dogs got killed? How many were drowned, shot or otherwise discarded of? 

These are the good old days with such great dogs that are so different from what you've got today. 

I've got a foster from the most crappiest breeding you can think off. He is not a bad dog. He does exactly what you said. He runs with kids, loves to ride in the truck, has an intense ball and hunt drive.... he would make a GREAT farm dog. 

I've got a dog where I once was told to do him a favor and shoot him. That dog recently protected me from an intruder and he lives up to everything my father said he would. He was ruined for the sport but it's still in his genes and he does exactly what a Shepherd is supposed to do. 

What about your dogs? Are they like they used to be 20 years ago? 
What about Cliffs dogs? 

There are rescues out there specialized in adopting dogs out to SAR and Police. The common public deem them as aggressive but they make the perfect dog for work simply because people do not understand what a German Shepherd is. 

Back then you had weak nerved and unstable dogs just as you have them today but you didn't have the internet. 

Up until I've joined this forum I had NO idea that DM existed, that there was a big cancer problem in the US. Heck, I had no idea that PARVO or RABIES is such a huge problem over here. Heartworm? Never even heard of it. 


We've had Parvo once and only because the local shelter smuggled sick dogs over the boarder to supplement their numbers. It was the most horrible thing to see. 

The Internet changed the world of dogs just as it changed everything else. The world has become a very small place. 

Just like with Malinois. The "new" Ataxie found in Malinois is not all that new. Recently there was a litter in Germany that showed those Symptoms. Most of the litter had to be euthanized if I remember correctly. The breeder was honest enough to go public with it and raised a stir. 
Well, turns out that this is nothing new. Those problems existed all along if you breed certain lines, only that they got rid of the dogs that showed those symptoms. 

My point? 
Some stuff is not new at all. Some stuff is overly dramatized and some stuff is forgotten and all you remember are the "good dogs"

BUT there were and always will be nervbags. That is NOTHING new. 
Only difference between "back then" and today is that you would be run out of the city if you euthanized a dog just because it's a nervebag, or just because the dog has DM, HD, ED. 

So yeah, you see all those dogs today that would have been killed 20 years ago, and THAT is why the dogs are different these days!


----------



## gsdsar

Excellent post Mrs K. We like to look at the " good ole days" with fondness, but we tend to forget the bad that went along with it. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup::thumbup:

Awesome post!

(my Opa and Uncle had some bad dogs in their day too.....I've heard the stories)




Mrs.K said:


> What everyone forgets to say is how many dogs were destroyed in those good ol' days.
> 
> The training methods were brutal and if a dog wasn't hard enough they quietly got rid of those dogs. The dogs weren't different back then. The training methods were. With todays training methods every dog can be titled no matter how crappy they used to be.
> 
> I remember the good old days of the Bamboo sticks.
> 
> Take dogs to the test. Pull out a stick, give them the real hits. You will see as many dogs succeed and/or run as you saw back in the day.
> 
> Hampton tested one of my dogs. Man you should have seen him hit Nala. They more pressure he put on her, they more she LOVED it and I've got it on video. She's not any different than the dogs we've had 20 years ago.
> 
> What did we have back then? Do you really want to go back to the forced retrieve?
> 
> I remember like it was yesterday. I don't EVER want to hear a dog scream like that ever again. I don't EVER want to see it again.
> 
> How many dogs got broken in the process? How many dogs got killed? How many were drowned, shot or otherwise discarded of?
> 
> These are the good old days with such great dogs that are so different from what you've got today.
> 
> I've got a foster from the most crappiest breeding you can think off. He is not a bad dog. He does exactly what you said. He runs with kids, loves to ride in the truck, has an intense ball and hunt drive.... he would make a GREAT farm dog.
> 
> I've got a dog where I once was told to do him a favor and shoot him. That dog recently protected me from an intruder and he lives up to everything my father said he would. He was ruined for the sport but it's still in his genes and he does exactly what a Shepherd is supposed to do.
> 
> What about your dogs? Are they like they used to be 20 years ago?
> What about Cliffs dogs?
> 
> There are rescues out there specialized in adopting dogs out to SAR and Police. The common public deem them as aggressive but they make the perfect dog for work simply because people do not understand what a German Shepherd is.
> 
> Back then you had weak nerved and unstable dogs just as you have them today but you didn't have the internet.
> 
> Up until I've joined this forum I had NO idea that DM existed, that there was a big cancer problem in the US. Heck, I had no idea that PARVO or RABIES is such a huge problem over here. Heartworm? Never even heard of it.
> 
> 
> We've had Parvo once and only because the local shelter smuggled sick dogs over the boarder to supplement their numbers. It was the most horrible thing to see.
> 
> The Internet changed the world of dogs just as it changed everything else. The world has become a very small place.
> 
> Just like with Malinois. The "new" Ataxie found in Malinois is not all that new. Recently there was a litter in Germany that showed those Symptoms. Most of the litter had to be euthanized if I remember correctly. The breeder was honest enough to go public with it and raised a stir.
> Well, turns out that this is nothing new. Those problems existed all along if you breed certain lines, only that they got rid of the dogs that showed those symptoms.
> 
> My point?
> Some stuff is not new at all. Some stuff is overly dramatized and some stuff is forgotten and all you remember are the "good dogs"
> 
> BUT there were and always will be nervbags. That is NOTHING new.
> Only difference between "back then" and today is that you would be run out of the city if you euthanized a dog just because it's a nervebag, or just because the dog has DM, HD, ED.
> 
> So yeah, you see all those dogs today that would have been killed 20 years ago, and THAT is why the dogs are different these days!


----------



## Mrs.K

Gwenhwyfair said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> Awesome post!
> 
> (my Opa and Uncle had some bad dogs in their day too.....I've heard the stories)


They always existed and always will exist. Only they were culled back in the day, which you can't do any longer these days. 
When they still had a limit on the litters back then, my Helper told me that he had to go there and slammed the newborn puppies on the wall. He had to pick those pups and threw them at the wall. Those were the rules of the old SV. It was BRUTAL. 

Can you imagine a breed warden coming to your house, picking two pups and throw them against a wall, drown or shoot them, simply because you can't have more than a certain number? Can you imagine the outrage and what would happen? 

NOT POSSIBLE these days. Drown a dog, get caught and you end up on Facebook and will get punished one way or another. 

All those undesirable dogs were culled. Sick, disfigured, mentally challenged... 

Dogs that had done pre-lims and HD didn't make it off the table. If they had it with one year of age, didn't make it off the table either. 
These days, it'll pop up on the internet and people pay thousands of dollars to fix it. 

Gluing a dogs ears? If you showed up with a dog whose ears needed to be glued, your kennel name would have been ruined. You would have been known as the kennel that breeds soft ears. 

It blows my mind how open kennels are about these things over here. 

If a dog needed assistance, you would keep that quiet and within your trusted circle, IF at all.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup.

This is what I've heard. 




Mrs.K said:


> They always existed and always will exist. Only they were culled back in the day, which you can't do any longer these days.
> When they still had a limit on the litters back then, my Helper told me that he had to go there and slammed the newborn puppies on the wall. He had to pick those pups and threw them at the wall. Those were the rules of the old SV. It was BRUTAL.
> 
> Can you imagine a breed warden coming to your house, picking two pups and throw them against a wall, drown or shoot them, simply because you can't have more than a certain number? Can you imagine the outrage and what would happen?
> 
> NOT POSSIBLE these days. Drown a dog, get caught and you end up on Facebook and will get punished one way or another.
> 
> All those undesirable dogs were culled. Sick, disfigured, mentally challenged...
> 
> Dogs that had done pre-lims and HD didn't make it off the table. If they had it with one year of age, didn't make it off the table either.
> These days, it'll pop up on the internet and people pay thousands of dollars to fix it.
> 
> Gluing a dogs ears? If you showed up with a dog whose ears needed to be glued, your kennel name would have been ruined. You would have been known as the kennel that breeds soft ears.
> 
> It blows my mind how open kennels are about these things over here.
> 
> If a dog needed assistance, you would keep that quiet and within your trusted circle, IF at all.


----------



## björn

Gwenhwyfair, when I talk about sports for civilians I mean what type of trials and tests that are open for those not working with servicedogs, not that people not working with servicedogs shouldn´t be allowed to own or train a GSD

However I don´t think the breedfounder was intressted to get dogs that works well inside the rules of a certain sport but are not so good for the true work the sports is a substitue for. Many breeds for IPO, it´s the biggest dog sport and is what they do in germany which has most GSDs in europe I suppose and hence influence the lines in other countries too. It seems to me for scoring high in IPO a very lively quick dog and who are quite soft makes the training easier and more flashy performance in both obedience and protectionwork. But are such qualities something that improve the dogs ability to concentrate on a long difficult track, or independtly handle difficult situations in service, or is it just for "show" and more traits needed for a specific sport according to the rules?

For me as I said what´s intressting to see if looking at puppies is what the parents have produced earlier if that´s possible. So I look on those statistics available on HD/ED, results on the workingtests available and hopefully I can see some of the progeny live in training/tests/sport. The things you can´t see with your own eyes hopefuly you can get info about from others who are familiar with the lines in question, today internet gives you a good option there to make such contacts I suppose. Hence if the dogs father is a famous SCH-dog is only intressting if he prdouces better in my opinion than the more unknown police, security or trackingdog someone plans to use.


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## martemchik

Lol...another thread that has come down to "back in the day" memories. I remember there was one a few weeks ago where I got attacked because I wasn't old enough to remember "back in the day" when everything was wonderful, dogs never attacked, they were all perfect, and all ready to go into battle when the motherland called. Not a single day of training but they could all take down a perpetrator, sniff out a bomb, find the pound of marijuana that was lying next to it, and then go home and give kisses to the 10 children they had in their household.

The issue is like Mrs. K stated...we only remember the AMAZING dogs because those were the ones written down in history. Today, we know about ALL the dogs because everyone can join a forum, ask a question, create a pedigree database page for their dog, ect. Dogs are also much more attainable. The price of dog has not risen at the same rate as wages, and so more people can afford a pure bred dog. Dogs are now status symbols, and a GSD is one of the better ones to have. Don't tell me you can't tell that other dog owners give you a bit more respect because you own one...

99% of dogs are now pets, not something that hangs around doing things on the farm waiting to be called up to go fight along the Rhine River. People dong ASK the same of their dogs as they did 50-100 years ago. I could really care less if my dog has the temperament for Schutzhund, or LE, or service, I just care that he has the temperament to be a fabulous pet in MY home. You can't ask people to raise their expectations when they don't even have any idea of what they should be.


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## martemchik

björn said:


> It seems to me for scoring high in IPO a very lively quick dog and who are quite soft makes the training easier and more flashy performance in both obedience and protectionwork. But are such qualities something that improve the dogs ability to concentrate on a long difficult track, or independtly handle difficult situations in service, or is it just for "show" and more traits needed for a specific sport according to the rules?


This is a wonderful point...cliff pointed out that Malanois are scoring better in the sport designed for GSD and its because the judges like that stuff more. They like the flash, the quickness, and so the GSD has to compete with a breed can do that, and of course GSD breeders that want to beat those Malanois are going to start breeding for those traits in a GSD. It's called human nature.


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## Gwenhwyfair

O.K. thank you for clarifying bjorn.  

You are probably right about that Capt. Von Stephanitz didn't want the dog to be confined to 'a' sport, that would not fit with the ideals he spoke/wrote of. However SchH was devised as a test for the GS during Capt. Von Stephanitz's life time. We humans do have a tendancy to go overboard with things though. (including with military/LE applications.)






björn said:


> Gwenhwyfair, when I talk about sports for civilians I mean what type of trials and tests that are open for those not working with servicedogs, not that people not working with servicedogs shouldn´t be allowed to own or train a GSD
> 
> However I don´t think the breedfounder was intressted to get dogs that works well inside the rules of a certain sport but are not so good for the true work the sports is a substitue for. Many breeds for IPO, it´s the biggest dog sport and is what they do in germany which has most GSDs in europe I suppose and hence influence the lines in other countries too. It seems to me for scoring high in IPO a very lively quick dog and who are quite soft makes the training easier and more flashy performance in both obedience and protectionwork. But are such qualities something that improve the dogs ability to concentrate on a long difficult track, or independtly handle difficult situations in service, or is it just for "show" and more traits needed for a specific sport according to the rules?
> 
> For me as I said what´s intressting to see if looking at puppies is what the parents have produced earlier if that´s possible. So I look on those statistics available on HD/ED, results on the workingtests available and hopefully I can see some of the progeny live in training/tests/sport. The things you can´t see with your own eyes hopefuly you can get info about from others who are familiar with the lines in question, today internet gives you a good option there to make such contacts I suppose. Hence if the dogs father is a famous SCH-dog is only intressting if he prdouces better in my opinion than the more unknown police, security or trackingdog someone plans to use.


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## Gwenhwyfair

True. I've seen a few GSDs at trials that really look like Malis in a GSD coat but then we see a lot of Malis doing police work too....

Anyhoo you know what it's going to boil down to is the free market....for better or for worse...



martemchik said:


> This is a wonderful point...cliff pointed out that Malanois are scoring better in the sport designed for GSD and its because the judges like that stuff more. They like the flash, the quickness, and so the GSD has to compete with a breed can do that, and of course GSD breeders that want to beat those Malanois are going to start breeding for those traits in a GSD. It's called human nature.


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## Ocean

The first GSD was shown in the U.S. in 1907. Breeding started soon after. Practically since the start of the breed there have been 'American' GSD lines.

In the 1920s, after Rin-tin-tin became a hit movie, the GSD was the most popular pure breed in the U.S. It has never lost its top ten position since then and is usually top 5. In the most recent AKC count it was No. 2.

In WW2, the US used GSDs and Dobies. Most of these were backyard pets donated by families to the war effort and many came back after the war to continue to live with families. (talk about temperament!)

In the Vietnam War, the U.S. used an estimated 3,000 to 5,000 war dogs, the vast majority, perhaps 90% (?) being GSDs. The Mal was unknown as a working dog then. Again, most of these GSDs were American home bred from BYB lines. (BYB's are not what they used to be!)

Every year, about 40,000 GSDs are registered with the AKC. (Perhaps an equal number born without papers and never registered) Perhaps about 60 to 80% are BYBs of indeterminate lines some dating back to the early 1900s. Maybe 10% to 20% are from known American AKC showlines. 10%-20% European lines, of which the majority are German showlines. I think it's reasonable to assume around 2,000 to 3,000 working line puppies born in the U.S. a year. (That's around 300 to 350 litters a year).

The demand for military, police, private security and SAR K-9s has increased dramatically since the drug wars and the jihadi wars around the world. Despite the popularity of the Malinois as the au courant working dog and the fact that GSDs have been bred in numbers in the U.S. since the early 1900s, the vast majority of GSD working dogs used in the U.S. are imported from the Czech republic, Slovakia or Holland. Every year in the national schutzhund trials, the majority of GSDs showing are still imports from Germany and other European countries despite schutzhund having been in the U.S. for around 35 years now.

What conclusions can be drawn?


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## carmspack

"He didn't use the dog for military or LE. " HE WHO?

"What about your dogs? Are they like they used to be 20 years ago? " YES -- even 35 years ago -- YES 
Even back then I was putting out dogs that did bomb detection (Papal Visit - G20 - Presidential protection ) RCMP , police , high level competitive obedience -- adored family dogs . Yes . And may it ever be so. It is an effort , a real effort , to find "other" dogs that I want to bring in as breeding material. That is what Cliff is saying , that is the point of this thread.


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## carmspack

oh my goodness - yes ! Ocean. The dogs that went into service were volunteered off the front porch where days before they had been a chum to the boy of the family who with his gang of friends went off to play ball in some dusty field , or wearing a babies cap put on by the girl playing "house" . Exactly the point . They were level and stable . There was no previous training , prey-play stimulation , testing. The call came , the families were proud to offer their dogs , the dogs were tested , run through the program and went to work.
I am not even talking about farm dogs along the banks of the Rhine going to war !!!!! these were American owned , basic just-folks , helping out which ever way they could. They were not sophisticated breeding or training or necessarily GSD , or even purebred.


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## David Taggart

So far, there are two lines for GSD in breeding: Show line and Working line. Show line programmes mainly work for the dog's exterior and are intended for supplying public with perfect pets; Working line programmes press on certain capabilities GSD has to poseess in order to pass them to the next generations of dogs, dog's intellect is an inherited thing. Only dogs that had passed Schutzhund test are allowed to breed - and this is true in Germany to this very day, you can achieve a title Schutzhund 1, 2 and 3. In USA you should look for United Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) for titles in WDC and their championships, type in Google "key to Schutzhund titles and their abbreviations" if you want to know in detail.
People, who support first line are at constant war with the supporters of the second. The trouble is - the German Shepherd Dog loses his intelligence with "breeding out agressive gene" as many dog breeds have lost already, Golden retrievers for instance. Alas, too many people want GSD to be "civilized", in other words - "civilized hide on a leash", unable to bite a child.


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## Gwenhwyfair

My grandfather that's HE who and his neighbors and the farmers that HE lived with and around. The people who really were there in the beginning of the breed.

My family in Germany was heavily involved in German Shepherds for many, many years, having said that *I am not* on this board trying to tell anyone what kind of dog they should or should not be breeding either.

I'll leave that up to you. For me I'm building a network of people who I trust and can help me find my next dog and I'll let you guys argue about this until infinity.

I agree completely with Mrs. K. much of this is unrealistic over romanticization.



carmspack said:


> "He didn't use the dog for military or LE. " HE WHO?
> 
> "What about your dogs? Are they like they used to be 20 years ago? " YES -- even 35 years ago -- YES
> Even back then I was putting out dogs that did bomb detection (Papal Visit - G20 - Presidential protection ) RCMP , police , high level competitive obedience -- adored family dogs . Yes . And may it ever be so. It is an effort , a real effort , to find "other" dogs that I want to bring in as breeding material. That is what Cliff is saying , that is the point of this thread.


----------



## martemchik

Wanna know why those dogs were able to go and join the war effort?

THERE WASN'T EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME EXPECTATION AND UNDERSTANDING OF THOSE TYPES OF DOGS AS THERE IS TODAY!!!

The US military would never in a million years dream of doing something like this today because they depend on those dogs to do a lot more difficult jobs than just "hear and alert" to enemy soldiers. Sorry...even back then you couldn't just grab a dog off the street and train it to sniff for land mines...oh wait...you could be like the Germans and just send the dogs in the "sniff out" the bombs (trip the bombs) before the human soldiers went through.

Today's expectation of a working dog is miles ahead of what it was back then. US police departments used to use American bred dogs...then they realized that they needed better dogs, they realized they could get dogs that are much easier to train and work with, so today they almost exclusively use imports. Dogs were not used to their FULL capabilities, as their full capabilities were not understood by many people until quite recently.

But wait...I also don't have enough experience and have not done enough research on this to know all that...so don't bother taking it seriously.


----------



## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> "He didn't use the dog for military or LE. " HE WHO?
> 
> "What about your dogs? Are they like they used to be 20 years ago? " YES -- even 35 years ago -- YES
> Even back then I was putting out dogs that did bomb detection (Papal Visit - G20 - Presidential protection ) RCMP , police , high level competitive obedience -- adored family dogs . Yes . And may it ever be so. It is an effort , a real effort , to find "other" dogs that I want to bring in as breeding material. That is what Cliff is saying , that is the point of this thread.


So are mine! 

So what exactly are you complaining about? That dog from 20-35 years ago still exists!

The dogs you are talking about, that are running around with kids, wearing caps etc. STILL EXISTS!

The dog that is being used for SAR, Military, SchH, Agility, Flyball and is the best buddy of a boy STILL EXISTS!

Are there dogs out there that shouldn't be bred or even walk the streets of this planet because they are too sick or mentally unstable? YES!

But they have ALWAYS existed! 

There are still Shepherds that can be volunteered off the porch, I'm pretty sure that a LOT of dogs on this forum would be capable of passing those tests and those tests were not rocket science. They were nowhere near as sophisticated as the tests are these days. The tests today are much harder to pass these days. So maybe, the expectations have actually changed over the years. 

I want to know how many dogs from 35 years ago would actually pass some of the SAR Tests... like a hunt drive test of 30 minutes, picking up metal and copper pipes... etc..or the police tests these days.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That's true as well. I do think there is a lot more specialization expected of working dogs today, no matter the venue really.





martemchik said:


> Wanna know why those dogs were able to go and join the war effort?
> 
> THERE WASN'T EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME EXPECTATION AND UNDERSTANDING OF THOSE TYPES OF DOGS AS THERE IS TODAY!!!
> 
> The US military would never in a million years dream of doing something like this today because they depend on those dogs to do a lot more difficult jobs than just "hear and alert" to enemy soldiers. Sorry...even back then you couldn't just grab a dog off the street and train it to sniff for land mines...oh wait...you could be like the Germans and just send the dogs in the "sniff out" the bombs (trip the bombs) before the human soldiers went through.
> 
> Today's expectation of a working dog is miles ahead of what it was back then. US police departments used to use American bred dogs...then they realized that they needed better dogs, they realized they could get dogs that are much easier to train and work with, so today they almost exclusively use imports. Dogs were not used to their FULL capabilities, as their full capabilities were not understood by many people until quite recently.
> 
> But wait...I also don't have enough experience and have not done enough research on this to know all that...so don't bother taking it seriously.


----------



## carmspack

"Wanna know why those dogs were able to go and join the war effort?

THERE WASN'T EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME EXPECTATION AND UNDERSTANDING OF THOSE TYPES OF DOGS AS THERE IS TODAY!!!"

okay so what if some home owners association or insurance company wants to have a spontaneous test , pretty much the same guidelines as "those" dogs , even with all the handbook-of-socializing-meeting-so-many-people-and-making-nice-eating-cookies-out-of-strangers-hands , "understanding" and behaviourists , how many , would pass ? Not for any purpose , just plain old pass ? No pass then no insurance , no permit to have the dog . 

Spontaneous scheduling, spontaneous examination and variety , place , crowd , neutral crowd , excited crowd , how many? You wouldn't know what to plan for . 

Cliff , page 1 " My problem with sport and show is that they are always performed in controlled environments thus allowing conditioned animals to achieve success though lacking vital traits. Dog certifications whether they are SAR, Seeing-eye, law Enforcement, etc require the dog to work in an open society in unexpected elements and make decisions that still allow them to accomplish their goals. This should be very important to a breeder, because it shows the dog's/breeds ability to adjust or adapt while in the process of service to man. These traits also make it easy for the breed to be good family dog as will as service dog. Today these type dogs are not looked upon favorably for breeding, but more so dogs that have achieved high results in controlled environments."


----------



## x11

David Taggart said:


> The trouble is - the German Shepherd Dog loses his intelligence with *"breeding out* agressive gene" as many dog breeds have lost already, Golden retrievers for instance.


 
so David yr saying traits are/were there to start with and due to selective breeding we concentrate what we want by "subtraction" in a sense??


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## Mrs.K

What the two of you seem to forget. Most of those Sport Dogs, are also Pet Dogs and very social.

80% of the dogs competing in Germany don't live in Kennels but in the house, with their owners and their kids and not lacking vital traits whatsoever. 

Sure, they are conditioned for the sport but they are also social and taken downtown, to restaurants, might have even taken the title as horseback riding companion (yes there is a title for that, it's almost as the BH only that they accompany a horseback rider)... 

They take them to fairs, public events, most dogs know how to ride on the train, bus in a taxi. Things that are simply ILLEGAL in the United States. 

So while they are conditioned in sport, they are still family members and don't lack those traits. 

Bring it on. Indra was at the Rhine in Flames event back in Heidelberg when she was just shy of 4 months, with bombs and fireworks going off and HUNDREDS of people. 

Sadly, over here, you no longer can take them because of some idiots ruining it all. 

Maybe Society at a whole, is the issue in the United States!


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## Jack's Dad

[/QUOTE]okay so what if some home owners association or insurance company wants to have a spontaneous test , pretty much the same guidelines as "those" dogs , even with all the handbook-of-socializing-meeting-so-many-people-and-making-nice-eating-cookies-out-of-strangers-hands , "understanding" and behaviourists , how many , would pass ? Not for any purpose , just plain old pass ? No pass then no insurance , no permit to have the dog . 

Spontaneous scheduling, spontaneous examination and variety , place , crowd , neutral crowd , excited crowd , how many? You wouldn't know what to plan for . [/QUOTE]

This is what people keep missing. Whether dogs actually work or are titled isn't as important as not losing the ability to work and be a stable dog with good nerves in the home. 

Homeowners example is great.

There would be a lot of people looking for new homes if their dogs had to pass a test.


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## x11

good point Ocean;



Ocean said:


> "In WW2, the US used GSDs and Dobies. Most of these were backyard pets donated by families to the war effort and *many came back after the war to continue to live with families. *In the Vietnam War, the U.S. used an estimated 3,000 to 5,000 war dogs, the vast majority, perhaps 90% (?) being GSDs."
> 
> 
> _you gave a nice warm fuzzy ending to the WWII dogs, and what becoame of those 3-5k vietnam war dogs - from mulitple first hand accounts of their handlers their thank you for service was far from warm and fuzzy and they certainly did not get a chance to contribute to the gene pool, sad and disgusting actually_.
> 
> "Every year, about 40,000 GSDs are registered with the AKC. (Perhaps an equal number born without papers and never registered) Perhaps about 60 to 80% are BYBs of indeterminate lines some dating back to the early 1900s. Maybe 10% to 20% are from known American AKC showlines. 10%-20% European lines, of which the majority are German showlines. I think it's reasonable to assume around 2,000 to 3,000 working line puppies born in the U.S. a year. (That's around 300 to 350 litters a year).
> 
> "The demand for military, police, private security and SAR K-9s has increased dramatically since the drug wars and the jihadi wars around the world. Despite the popularity of the Malinois as the au courant working dog and the fact that GSDs have been bred in numbers in the U.S. since the early 1900s, the vast majority of GSD working dogs used in the U.S. are imported from the Czech republic, Slovakia or Holland. Every year in the national schutzhund trials, the majority of GSDs showing are still imports from Germany and other European countries despite schutzhund having been in the U.S. for around 35 years now.
> 
> *What conclusions can be drawn?* "
> 
> _no comments by anyone? how about this & US breeding;_
> 
> _The US has actually made two really great breeds i admire, to get them, one, speak to a vicious US criminal drug dealer type figure with dog blood on his hands._
> 
> _or two speak to a toothless ******* in the swamps with hog blood on his hands. _
> 
> _both great iconic breeds perfectly bred for their purpose._
> 
> _but if you want a police dog......_


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Andy^^, (and others).

I want a dog that can go anywhere, walk into any situation and be fine with it, ok with people coming to my home, that is healthy, one who would follow me off a cliff and has the brains to differentiate. 

I've had quite a few german shepherds over the years, and can honestly say only one of those was 'dumb as a rock', but hey he was my husband's dog

I have been blessed with some wonderful sound stable dogs , ones that I have titled in different things, ones I haven't because of whatever reasons, handler impaired. 

It hasn't been a chore for me, to find a dog (puppy) that is the above. I guess I don't "get it" when I read all these issues people have with their dogs, inept owners? bad genetics? breeders selling to anyone?, I'm sure it's all of the above and then some.

I guess I'm agreeing, there are MANY good dogs out there, MANY good breeders out there, titled or not, they do exist


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## x11

Mrs.K said:


> *80% of the dogs competing in Germany don't live in Kennels but in the house, with their owners and their kids and not lacking vital traits whatsoever. *


i get you are from Germany but can you really trot statistics out like that, is that actually true? or just true amongst the people you know.

Tiekerhook and all those kennels have all their dogs living in the house as pets???

not arguing i just find the 80% claim hard to believe but am glad if it is true, seems nice.

or is it true cos folks may not have back yards much or it is too cold so dogs live in crates inside a warm house / basement??


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## Mrs.K

Breeders make the other 20% and even most breeders have a couple of dogs in their home. Those are the house dogs. The others are kennel dogs. 

Most of the time, dogs are in and outdoor dogs and even if they are kennel dogs, they are always part of the family. 

What I'm talking about are people that are not breeders. I am talking about handlers that have one or two dogs in their home, and compete. 

The National handlers are far and few between. I'm talking about local and regional level competition. Those handlers have their dogs at home. They are first and foremost pets. 

And where do most of the dogs in a litter actually go? Can Carmen say that a 100 % of her dogs go into working homes? 

I'm pretty sure that a lot of her dogs go just as much into families as they go into working homes. There are NOT enough working homes out there for every dog produced and not every dog in a litter will make the cut. 

I'm pretty sure, that even breeders like Carmen produced dogs that just didn't have it...

I know we've had one or two that didn't have it or got ruined by other handlers. It happens. That's breeding.


----------



## x11

cheers was just interested, i resent the psycho over competitive handlers that dog only know crate and training field, undermines all their achievements in my book.


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## carmspack

yes to this "There would be a lot of people looking for new homes if their dogs had to pass a test." And we know from this list that there are enough landlords who look sideways at a GSD and DENY housing , or insurance companies deny coverage . 

silly "Can Carmen say that a 100 % of her dogs go into working homes? " I would love that . The high majority do -- and the "others" would be able to do something. However I do not have to worry about that . I only have a litter or two a year - actually two in an 18 month span is more like it. 

Working - emphasis on working , dogs in Germany are just as hard to find . For several reasons -- a big fight within the SV family relegating the working dogs , the working trials , the police trials to lower status - oops , until they need to ride on the coat tails of the accomplishments of those dogs. Outside of that it is big tourist business , big business to breed and export showlines . 
but this is not the discussion, which again , is that sport and the reliance on using sport titles as a breeder criterion has not done the breed any favour because the totality of the dog's genetics are not tested -- not natural , inherent talents .

so do you know any dogs that have taken many years to pass the BH?


----------



## carmspack

Cliff , you don't breed any more , or very little (?) . So how is your experience in importing dogs to train up and provide to LE .

I know you are selective - how much chaff do you reject before you find one that you feel is a very promising prospect.


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> yes to this "There would be a lot of people looking for new homes if their dogs had to pass a test." And we know from this list that there are enough landlords who look sideways at a GSD and DENY housing , or insurance companies deny coverage .
> 
> silly "Can Carmen say that a 100 % of her dogs go into working homes? " I would love that . The high majority do -- and the "others" would be able to do something. However I do not have to worry about that . I only have a litter or two a year - actually two in an 18 month span is more like it.
> 
> Working - emphasis on working , dogs in Germany are just as hard to find . For several reasons -- a big fight within the SV family relegating the working dogs , the working trials , the police trials to lower status - oops , until they need to ride on the coat tails of the accomplishments of those dogs. Outside of that it is big tourist business , big business to breed and export showlines .
> but this is not the discussion, which again , is that sport and the reliance on using sport titles as a breeder criterion has not done the breed any favour because the totality of the dog's genetics are not tested -- not natural , inherent talents .
> 
> so do you know any dogs that have taken many years to pass the BH?


I dont disagree with you at all. However I also do not fully agree with you. We all know that good and bad dogs have always existed and will always exist.

You, Cliff and I know how brutal it was back then and if a dog did not work the dog was culled. It was that simple. 
Culling like it was done in the past is impossible, so we see an increase in sick, unwanted less than stellar dogs.

If you want a normal dog, it is not hard to find one at all. If you want something specific, even that can be found if you have your resources. 


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## Gwenhwyfair

Are you a breeder?

What you wrote in blue....really? Goldens are less intelligent because they don't have the 'aggressive gene'?

I'd be interested in how you validate that statment on several levels. Do you have specific evidence about this particular gene and how it's absence affects the intelligence of dogs? Also referring specifically to Goldens, because the Goldens not only hunt/retreive they work in SAR and as service dogs for the disabled, they also do detection work. When leading the blind, as Goldens do, the dog must be able to employ intelligent disobedience. That requires an intelligent animal. 

Wolves are terrible at following human guidance or reading human emotions but they sure haven't had the aggressive gene bred out of them..... 




David Taggart said:


> So far, there are two lines for GSD in breeding: Show line and Working line. Show line programmes mainly work for the dog's exterior and are intended for supplying public with perfect pets; Working line programmes press on certain capabilities GSD has to poseess in order to pass them to the next generations of dogs, dog's intellect is an inherited thing. Only dogs that had passed Schutzhund test are allowed to breed - and this is true in Germany to this very day, you can achieve a title Schutzhund 1, 2 and 3. In USA you should look for United Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) for titles in WDC and their championships, type in Google "key to Schutzhund titles and their abbreviations" if you want to know in detail.
> People, who support first line are at constant war with the supporters of the second. The trouble is - the German Shepherd Dog loses his intelligence with "breeding out agressive gene" as many dog breeds have lost already, Golden retrievers for instance. Alas, too many people want GSD to be "civilized", in other words - "civilized hide on a leash", unable to bite a child.


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## cliffson1

@ Liberatore....you hit the nail on the head, but then again thats not surprising with your dog knowledge.
@Carmen....Yes, it is getting difficult to get the same dogs as yesteryear, but they are out there. You have to know breeders that KNOW what a German Shepherd should be capable of and have the integrity to not compromise their likes for the traits of the breed. Getting to be fewer and fewer, though.
@ others.....many of you dont have a clue what you are talking about when it comes to dogs of yesteryear and dogs today other than what you read. The same with the abilities of the dogs and the complexity of the training....its not about how old you are, its about making statements that are not based in fact or no point of credible reference. There are dogs today just like the dogs of thirty or forty years ago....but they are now the minority because of a host of reasons. Ocean wrote a good post, but its difficult to realize if you have no point of reference. The goals of breeders have changed, the expectations of breeders have changed, the knowledge of breeders is more often lacking, the passion and integrity of BREDDERS is often missing. Show and Sport being a goal is instrumental....some of us realize that the breed is slowly becoming a pet breed....we see that as well as the blind.....but that does not abdicate us from our responsibility to this noble breed to preserve the working traits til the end. We are just becoming fewer, but there are some serious young people out their that have the passion and determination to preserve the breed and we must constantly provide them with information and knowledge to do so. As for the more superficial/cosmetic breeders, they are entitled to their pursuit also. 
There are still dogs being bred today exactly like the ones 40 years ago, I have a 12 month puppy that is just like the dogs of forty years ago, as is this 9 week old puppy I sent to N Alabama last week. Just plain sound, unafraid, and inquisitive....nowdays it takes pups treats and coaxing to go up the house stairs.SMH!


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## Mrs.K

Thank you for underlining what I said. It is not hard to find those dogs! 

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## cliffson1

Sandra, It IS hard to find those dogs, hence the start of this post in the first place....some of the only places you find them anymore, breeders are not using for breeding stock.....as Carmen and Ang tried to redirect to; this is about the breed losing the ability in function at high level in venues that are not choreographed or held up by a handler. I hear people quoting the Capn " keep my dog a working dog" DUH!!!!!!, well we are losing that....and dogs are being used more today in working venues than any time in history. For the serious breeder out there, you cant overlook this or reconcile this with an owners mentality. Perspective breederds need education and integrity, it starts with breeding dogs that are proofed just as much in working as in show/sport. Sure some show/sport dogs can produce working dogs, but BREEDERS it is becoming rare....wake up! And I am talking about more than LEO/Military breeders, so we dont hear the police only whine. I am talking about something intrinsic to the German Shepherd nature, that many of you really havent seen in action.....but the beauty of the dog is in its work!!!(Now where did that come from....lol)


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## x11

wow this is stuff to slit yr wrist to. 

so what were all the "good" breeders doing when it all started to slip away???

or is the answer that the gsd has not changed much at all by and large but the increased demands and specialisation placed on a modern working dog no longer qualifies the same old gsd to do it?


anyhoo i will never know, i wasn't there, and if you weren't there then your not entitled to an opinion. 

all i/we/newcomers got is the old timers (pre-youtube to show it) telling us grand tales of how great the old dogs were and blaming us people that weren't even around when it all went to crap on their watch.

if yr not happy with yr dog, go get a mal or whatever you need.



cliffson1 said:


> @ Liberatore....you hit the nail on the head, but then again thats not surprising with your dog knowledge.
> @Carmen....Yes, it is getting difficult to get the same dogs as yesteryear, but they are out there. You have to know breeders that KNOW what a German Shepherd should be capable of and have the integrity to not compromise their likes for the traits of the breed. Getting to be fewer and fewer, though.
> @ others.....many of you dont have a clue what you are talking about when it comes to dogs of yesteryear and dogs today other than what you read. The same with the abilities of the dogs and the complexity of the training....its not about how old you are, its about making statements that are not based in fact or no point of credible reference. There are dogs today just like the dogs of thirty or forty years ago....but they are now the minority because of a host of reasons. Ocean wrote a good post, but its difficult to realize if you have no point of reference. The goals of breeders have changed, the expectations of breeders have changed, the knowledge of breeders is more often lacking, the passion and integrity of BREDDERS is often missing. Show and Sport being a goal is instrumental....some of us realize that the breed is slowly becoming a pet breed....we see that as well as the blind.....but that does not abdicate us from our responsibility to this noble breed to preserve the working traits til the end. We are just becoming fewer, but there are some serious young people out their that have the passion and determination to preserve the breed and we must constantly provide them with information and knowledge to do so. As for the more superficial/cosmetic breeders, they are entitled to their pursuit also.
> There are still dogs being bred today exactly like the ones 40 years ago, I have a 12 month puppy that is just like the dogs of forty years ago, as is this 9 week old puppy I sent to N Alabama last week. Just plain sound, unafraid, and inquisitive....nowdays it takes pups treats and coaxing to go up the house stairs.SMH!


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## Mrs.K

I said the same thing you did. Just in different words. If you have the resources you can find any dog you want. We never had issues finding dogs that can do the job. Maybe it is because of the connections. 
I am only now getting exposed to breeders who could care less and produce crap.

If I am looking for a dog, I get what I need. Always have...

As for the obligation and responsibility...with what you said it would be a crime not to breed my male and let the bloodline vanish... after all that is the type of dog that you want to preserve, so to heck with titles.... 


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## Liberatore

I didn't think this was originally even about yesterday, but rather about today and tomorrow. 

But, let's look a little at what's been said, so 'yesterday' the selection criteria for law enforcment/military/service work was less than it is today, OK, I'll bite. Doesn't it seem a little backwards then that the selection criteria that most breeders are using (IPO) is, today, less than it was yesterday? How many things have been taken out to make it easier on the dogs? Old style courage test - outa' here! Straight wall - outa' here! Attack out of blind - outa' here! Maybe as breeders we need to step back and look at what we're breeding and why. Maybe we need to step back and look at the reasons working handlers are going to other breeds, even self proclaimed 'Shepherd people'. Maybe we need to take a good look at what's really going on, who is controlling things, and maybe we'll be in a better position to understand the why's and be able to fix it, if we care to. 

Ang


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## onyx'girl

Liberatore said:


> I didn't think this was originally even about yesterday, but rather about today and tomorrow.
> 
> But, let's look a little at what's been said, so 'yesterday' the selection criteria for law enforcment/military/service work was less than it is today, OK, I'll bite. Doesn't it seem a little backwards then that the selection criteria that most breeders are using (IPO) is, today, less than it was yesterday? How many things have been taken out to make it easier on the dogs? Old style courage test - outa' here! Straight wall - outa' here! Attack out of blind - outa' here! Maybe as breeders we need to step back and look at what we're breeding and why. Maybe we need to step back and look at the reasons working handlers are going to other breeds, even self proclaimed 'Shepherd people'. Maybe we need to take a good look at what's really going on, who is controlling things, and maybe we'll be in a better position to understand the why's and be able to fix it, if we care to.
> 
> Ang


:thumbup: 
AMEN


Mrs.K said:


> As for the obligation and responsibility...with what you said it would be a crime not to breed my male and let the bloodline vanish... after all that is the type of dog that you want to preserve, so to heck with titles....


I think you should preserve the bloodline.


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## x11

riddle me this, if the good breeders were breeding good dogs back in the day then so what if whatever changed in tests, titles whatever, - you should need walk no further than yr own back yard to find a great dog, you had enough time.

what difference does it make to YOUR breeding program what the guy breeding down the street does or how hard/easy it is to get a title.???

the only question i got is how does the US get to rape/mine the best genes out of euro year after year for generations and turn them into pet genes about as fast as it can be organised, seriously, heard of garbage in garbage out but this is like no matter what goes in garbage/pet out? how is the machine so predictable and relaible at this?


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## Mrs.K

Liberatore said:


> I didn't think this was originally even about yesterday, but rather about today and tomorrow.
> 
> But, let's look a little at what's been said, so 'yesterday' the selection criteria for law enforcment/military/service work was less than it is today, OK, I'll bite. Doesn't it seem a little backwards then that the selection criteria that most breeders are using (IPO) is, today, less than it was yesterday? How many things have been taken out to make it easier on the dogs? Old style courage test - outa' here! Straight wall - outa' here! Attack out of blind - outa' here! Maybe as breeders we need to step back and look at what we're breeding and why. Maybe we need to step back and look at the reasons working handlers are going to other breeds, even self proclaimed 'Shepherd people'. Maybe we need to take a good look at what's really going on, who is controlling things, and maybe we'll be in a better position to understand the why's and be able to fix it, if we care to.
> 
> Ang


I absolutely agree with you. But there is one thing, that I've said before and will say it again. A lot of that has to do with politics. 

Even with the soft stick, you have people out there being outraged over the dogs being hit with a stick at all, because it's abuse. 

There are more and more people speaking out against Schutzhund because it's archaic and shouldn't be in the hands of the common civilian. What they forget is that Civilians have ALWAYS produced the dogs for the military and the police. 

Just look into the "all positive" topics. If you use a pinch collar or e collar, sheesh... how dare you. I myself was conditioned to believe the e collar is a bad thing because thousands upon thousands of dogs were ruined throughout the decades.... so the e collar was banned in Germany. Now some cities have banned the pinch collar on top of that. 

Training methods have changed. Judges want to see a happy, drivey, tail wagging dog that can compete with the Malinois. 

There has been a complete shift in Society. Things that were okay to do 25 years ago, the type of dog that was wanted 25 years ago... in sport, that type of dog is no longer wanted. In the Society, that type of dog is no longer wanted but that type of dog seems to be badly needed. 

Personally, I have no issues finding what I need. For me it is one phone call away. I am just now realizing the extend of the problem, living in an area where BYB's continuously produce the worst crap dogs you can imagine.

So yeah, Politics and Society has changed and is also part of the problem and why rules have changed. I wouldn't be surprised if it is why RH is now another way to title and breed survey a dog. It's a huge publicity boost since SAR dogs are popular and it's a way where dogs capabilities are still being put under a test but all you need is a "cookie or a ball to train the dog"


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## onyx'girl

The fact that the word "bite" can no longer be used in trial says it all...Go is politically correct, LOL!


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## carmspack

Catu mentioned this book on another thread -- Dog Sense - good book ! 

mrs k "It's a huge publicity boost since SAR dogs are popular and it's a way where dogs capabilities are still being put under a test but all you need is a "cookie or a ball to train the do"

SAR though is not a sport , or a weekend pastime . 



 
Amazon.com: Ready! the Training of the Search and Rescue Dog (9780944875414): Susan Bulanda: Books

In SAR you have a perfect example of no two missions being alike with ever changing environments .


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> Catu mentioned this book on another thread -- Dog Sense - good book !
> 
> mrs k "It's a huge publicity boost since SAR dogs are popular and it's a way where dogs capabilities are still being put under a test but all you need is a "cookie or a ball to train the do"
> 
> SAR though is not a sport , or a weekend pastime . Ready! 2nd Edition The Training of the Search and Rescue Dog (Kennel Club Pro): Susan Bulanda: 9781593787264: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Amazon.com: Ready! the Training of the Search and Rescue Dog (9780944875414): Susan Bulanda: Books
> 
> In SAR you have a perfect example of no two missions being alike with ever changing environments .


I don't think you realize how popular SAR K9 is in Germany. And yep, we've also turned it into a sport, and it even has a World Championship. 

Just like Police Dogs actually do compete with each other, or Firemen have competition with each other here in the US, there also is competition for SAR.

Germany, has a LOT of K9 Teams. More than it ever needs and ever can get deployed. It is a H.U.G.E thing, if not bigger than SchH and I'm pretty sure that the SV felt the pressure and yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if publicity played a role in making dogs with the RH 2-B capable of taking the breed survey. 

I don't know if it has anything to do with publicity or not. It is an assumption, knowing how political SchH is, how the SV has lost thousands upon thousands of members in the last years, how SchH has lost it's "bling" and the SV had to do something to bring members back in and "go with the time" as well. 

Making the RH accessible for breed survey might have been the most brilliant step they could have probably taken. It's three phases and can be quite tough. From the last Nationals, if I remember correctly a lot of dogs, NQ'ed due to fatigue. This is not an easy sport and demands a LOT from the dogs. Once you get into the National, International terrain, this is NOT an easy thing to compete in, so it might actually be the working title some of you are looking for that tests the stamina and mental stability as well as drive of the dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Something we have discussed in those "you gotta build a bunker fence around your dog" threads and if a kid manages to scramble over the fence and get scratched by your dog you've got a ton of liability on your hands.

The U.S. is wacky about liability, but ONLY, in certain segments of society. Very low tolerance for injury due to domesticated animals especially when it involves children, very high tolerance for abuse of other sorts. A bit bi-polar it all is.






Mrs.K said:


> I absolutely agree with you. But there is one thing, that I've said before and will say it again. A lot of that has to do with politics.
> 
> Even with the soft stick, you have people out there being outraged over the dogs being hit with a stick at all, because it's abuse.
> 
> There are more and more people speaking out against Schutzhund because it's archaic and shouldn't be in the hands of the common civilian. What they forget is that Civilians have ALWAYS produced the dogs for the military and the police.
> 
> Just look into the "all positive" topics. If you use a pinch collar or e collar, sheesh... how dare you. I myself was conditioned to believe the e collar is a bad thing because thousands upon thousands of dogs were ruined throughout the decades.... so the e collar was banned in Germany. Now some cities have banned the pinch collar on top of that.
> 
> Training methods have changed. Judges want to see a happy, drivey, tail wagging dog that can compete with the Malinois.
> 
> There has been a complete shift in Society. Things that were okay to do 25 years ago, the type of dog that was wanted 25 years ago... in sport, that type of dog is no longer wanted. In the Society, that type of dog is no longer wanted but that type of dog seems to be badly needed.
> 
> Personally, I have no issues finding what I need. For me it is one phone call away. I am just now realizing the extend of the problem, living in an area where BYB's continuously produce the worst crap dogs you can imagine.
> 
> So yeah, Politics and Society has changed and is also part of the problem and why rules have changed. I wouldn't be surprised if it is why RH is now another way to title and breed survey a dog. It's a huge publicity boost since SAR dogs are popular and it's a way where dogs capabilities are still being put under a test but all you need is a "cookie or a ball to train the dog"


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## cliffson1

Sure some of us can find what we want....because we have the knowledge to stay away from dogs/lines that are rift with weak minds and weak health!....but what about all the people posting into the puppy, training, and behavior threads with nightmare after nightmare of nerves, aggression, health issues. Where is the sympathy for them....or do we find satisfaction in giving them advice often from people who have never dealt with the issue more than once if that. 
Which brings me to why I started this post....to get some input from some of the breeders like Liberatore, Carmspack, Wildhaus, and many others who feel we need to breed a better dog, and for those thinking about breeding that may glean some information from the thread. 
I dont have a problem with anyone posting, but I would like to stay on topic and discuss the evolution of things BREEDINGWISE. In order to have a productive dialogue on this subject, there are certain premises historically and now, that we start from. I understand that many others breed from different perspectives than this topic, thats fine for them, but some of us want to see the high susceptibility of health and temperament issues corrected from a breeding point. Thats all! (not to say that other breeders dont also, but the breed is going in the wrong direction temperament and healthwise to continue as is)
No reason for some to get huffy when they post something that is not supported by facts, and they are called out on it. Its not personal, its just that if we allow non factual information to take over the thread the thread doesnt serve its purpose. I just want to have an inteeligent dialogue on problems with breeding selection from a working perspective.....anything wrong with that? If you dont believe the dog should work....fine, not your thread, if you have never bred for working dogs....fine, not your thread, hey there are very knowledgable breeders on this forum that only breed titled performance dogs and have bigtime knowledge, that chose not to participate because they believe in what they are doing. They know the titles are not as important as the knowledge, but they let the thread evolve as they understand the elements.
But you know something, for all the good the internet has done, i find its still better to have the long phone conversation, and in person at event conversations to further your knowledge about the breed. 
This thread has probably outlived its usefulness, but hopefully there will be future breeders that are starting out, will read this and allow it to help them form their priorities for the breed in the future.


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## martemchik

My dog would pass any "test" an insurance company could throw at him. Probably 99% of the GSDs at my club could pass a "test" that an insurance company would throw at them. I'm just imagining what an insurance company would test for and since they wouldn't really throw anything "crazy" at the dog, they'd pass. My dog is temperament certified by the GSDCA test...and I don't think that anything an insurance company would do would be worse than that.

Actually...I bet that most of those "substandard" GSD would pass an insurance test much quicker than a Schutzhund dog. Show any aggression? FAIL. Show any curiosity towards the evaluator? FAIL. Look at the evaluator for too long? FAIL.

Last time I was at a SchH trial...I saw a dog break the long down and go straight for the dog doing her obedience portion...I saw Schutzhund 2 and 3 dogs missing blinds and going straight for the 6th one for the helper...I saw a dog that wouldn't stop biting the helper and nipping at him the whole time they were walking back to the judge together. But hey...those are the most solid dogs out there right...born and bred from Germany...nice performance they put on for the general public. "Oh look at that dog bite! Good thing the handler has NO control over it!"

And I know that my experience has been sport...but when you're talking about passing an insurance test...most pets would. I see maybe 5 BAD eggs at my GSD club every year. And there are more than 100 that train there. I see puppies that go in there that act very reserved, worried, not very outgoing, but I also see plenty of dogs like Cliff described his recent one is...and no, it won't be that hard for me to find one like that. I'm also not looking for the next SchH world champion, next #1 LE dog, next SAR superstar, I'm looking for a good pet that will compete in AKC events with me and it won't be hard to find.


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## martemchik

By the way...to bring it back to the original post...I'd never question Cliff or Carmen or some of the other breeders that I have gotten to know through this forum on their decision to breed to ANY dog or bitch no matter how many titles they have or don't have. I'd trust that if one of them told me that the dog is a police dog or a true working dog, I know they're not lying. But for the other 95% of the breeders out there...they will tell you the dog is a police dog just to hike up the price a bit. I don't know how many times we've had new people come on here and rave about how their dog was out of a police dog and everyone knew it was a lie.

So yes cliff, you're right...anyone that is thinking about breeding in the future should keep the things that have been discussed in mind. Breed so that you could possibly have a working dog, don't just breed for what the "public" wants.


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## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> My dog would pass any "test" an insurance company could throw at him. Probably 99% of the GSDs at my club could pass a "test" that an insurance company would throw at them. I'm just imagining what an insurance company would test for and since they wouldn't really throw anything "crazy" at the dog, they'd pass. My dog is temperament certified by the GSDCA test...and I don't think that anything an insurance company would do would be worse than that.
> 
> Actually...I bet that most of those "substandard" GSD would pass an insurance test much quicker than a Schutzhund dog. Show any aggression? FAIL. Show any curiosity towards the evaluator? FAIL. Look at the evaluator for too long? FAIL.
> 
> Last time I was at a SchH trial...I saw a dog break the long down and go straight for the dog doing her obedience portion...I saw Schutzhund 2 and 3 dogs missing blinds and going straight for the 6th one for the helper...I saw a dog that wouldn't stop biting the helper and nipping at him the whole time they were walking back to the judge together. But hey...those are the most solid dogs out there right...born and bred from Germany...nice performance they put on for the general public. "Oh look at that dog bite! Good thing the handler has NO control over it!"
> 
> And I know that my experience has been sport...but when you're talking about passing an insurance test...most pets would. I see maybe 5 BAD eggs at my GSD club every year. And there are more than 100 that train there. I see puppies that go in there that act very reserved, worried, not very outgoing, but I also see plenty of dogs like Cliff described his recent one is...and no, it won't be that hard for me to find one like that. I'm also not looking for the next SchH world champion, next #1 LE dog, next SAR superstar, I'm looking for a good pet that will compete in AKC events with me and it won't be hard to find.


Congratulations.


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## cliffson1

LOL...the pup I sent to NA is a good "pet", the dog in my current avatar is a thrid generation dog bred by me. He is 4 years and one of my last personal litters. He has a job....he is the meeter and greeter at his owners Pet Store and has been since he was 10 weeks old. Everyday he is there 8 hours, off leash and meets everyone that comes into store; children, people,animals, and vendors. He might try to bring you his tug and get you to pull it...lol. I think he is a pet and what an ambassador for the breed....he has personally accounted for many many referrals for people wanting a dog like that....not sport, not military, not LEO, just plain pet! This is type of intelligence and ability to adapt we should expect when we purchase a GS. Oh by the way....his father is a dual purpose police dog.


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## martemchik

cliffson1 said:


> LOL...the pup I sent to NA is a good "pet", the dog in my current avatar is a thrid generation dog bred by me. He is 4 years and one of my last personal litters. He has a job....he is the meeter and greeter at his owners Pet Store and has been since he was 10 weeks old. Everyday he is there 8 hours, off leash and meets everyone that comes into store; children, people,animals, and vendors. He might try to bring you his tug and get you to pull it...lol. I think he is a pet and what an ambassador or the breed....he has personally accounted for many many referrals for people wanting a dog like that....not sport, not military, not LEO, just plain pet! This is type of intelligence and ability to adapt we should expect when we purchase a GS. Oh by the way....his father is a dual purpose police dog.


That's what I meant...I have no doubt those dogs will make great pets. As I have no doubt that the dog I choose will make a great pet. If you TRUST the person doing the breeding, you should know what to expect no matter what they throw together. For those of us with little or no knowledge of pedigrees we have to depend on that trust we build with a breeder. If you have a relationship with them, have seen what they've produced, know what their goals/ethics are, you've you're going to be fine...but for the rest of the world who takes 1 week to find their next breeder, how do they build that kind of trust with that person? That's where titles come in...at least it says this person can back up the claims they're making about their dogs. Its proof that the dog is capable of doing X...but there really isn't much proof of the sire being a police dog except for a breeder telling you that...and why in the world would you believe someone you just met a week ago and that person is trying to sell you a $1000 puppy?


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## cliffson1

@11....how do YOU know what goes on with breeders in the U. S. ....or are you speculating again about something you really know nothing about? I'm just curious....then maybe I can riddle you!


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## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> Sure some of us can find what we want....because we have the knowledge to stay away from dogs/lines that are rift with weak minds and weak health!....but what about all the people posting into the puppy, training, and behavior threads with nightmare after nightmare of nerves, aggression, health issues. Where is the sympathy for them....or do we find satisfaction in giving them advice often from people who have never dealt with the issue more than once if that.
> Which brings me to why I started this post....to get some input from some of the breeders like Liberatore, Carmspack, Wildhaus, and many others who feel we need to breed a better dog, and for those thinking about breeding that may glean some information from the thread.
> I dont have a problem with anyone posting, but I would like to stay on topic and discuss the evolution of things BREEDINGWISE. In order to have a productive dialogue on this subject, there are certain premises historically and now, that we start from. I understand that many others breed from different perspectives than this topic, thats fine for them, but some of us want to see the high susceptibility of health and temperament issues corrected from a breeding point. Thats all! (not to say that other breeders dont also, but the breed is going in the wrong direction temperament and healthwise to continue as is)
> No reason for some to get huffy when they post something that is not supported by facts, and they are called out on it. Its not personal, its just that if we allow non factual information to take over the thread the thread doesnt serve its purpose. I just want to have an inteeligent dialogue on problems with breeding selection from a working perspective.....anything wrong with that? If you dont believe the dog should work....fine, not your thread, if you have never bred for working dogs....fine, not your thread, hey there are very knowledgable breeders on this forum that only breed titled performance dogs and have bigtime knowledge, that chose not to participate because they believe in what they are doing. They know the titles are not as important as the knowledge, but they let the thread evolve as they understand the elements.
> But you know something, for all the good the internet has done, i find its still better to have the long phone conversation, and in person at event conversations to further your knowledge about the breed.
> This thread has probably outlived its usefulness, but hopefully there will be future breeders that are starting out, will read this and allow it to help them form their priorities for the breed in the future.


Agreed. 

I might be one of those future breeders and I am not sure if it has outlived it's usefulness. I would love your opinion about the SAR titled and breed surveyed dogs. What do you think about that. Does it have a future or not? 

From the time I've been doing SAR there is one thing I have taken away. 

If done right, it takes a strong dog. The dog must be physically and mentally strong. They must have the drive. If a dog is supposed to work for hours, it is not only physically but especially mentally exhausting. 
Most dogs I have seen, wouldn't only excell at SAR but in pretty much any other venue as well because these dogs were bred to work and not bred to compete.


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## cliffson1

But the issue Martemchik, is that this thread was never meant to be referendum on an owner buying a good pup....it was to hold a dialogue about breeding practices of today's breeders that are allowing the breed to reflect more and more health and temperament issues. It is a generic discussion about the results of breeders breeding FOR show/sport tiles and the condition of the breed as a result. No guarantees, no indictments, just discussion when we look at how we are doing things and what is it translating to. For those of us that like to see the working and pet world continue to flourish, then is the show world creating structure that is used in working, utility, and pets. In the sport world is sport breeding producing dogs that we see in working, utility, and pet homes. Is the health and temperament (which are nightmares for working and pethomes) of these breeders improving or getting worse. Lets face it there are more of this breed in working and family situations than sport and show. So in order to improve, we assess, compare, differentiate, and naybe see some things that could help improve things.....thats all....kinda boring....I know, and of course its not enticing for the warm and fuzzy posters, still some of us would like to also have some serious dialogue about things of substance in the breed along with the million other topics on the forum.


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## björn

Mrs K, yes SAR or other activites that really demands much of the dog should be OK for breeding, BUT I also think a true GSD should be able to be used also for protection and have the whole package so to speak. I think there are as good dogs today as in former times, but the showdogs have lost too much of their ability and the workingline IPO-dogs are even them sometimes breed more for looks or for traits that makes for a good sportdog. If SCH was changed more like some of the workingcertifications for a policedog(longer tracks,more searchwork that dremands much huntdrive, more challanging protection etc) then maybe this would have the effect that more mediocre dogs couldn´t go so far in the sport. But again I doubt this will happen in germany anytime soon if even SCH is controversial.


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## Mrs.K

björn said:


> Mrs K, yes SAR or other activites that really demands much of the dog should be OK for breeding, *BUT I also think a true GSD should be able to be used also for protection and have the whole package so to speak.* I think there are as good dogs today as in former times, but the showdogs have lost too much of their ability and the workingline IPO-dogs are even them sometimes breed more for looks or for traits that makes for a good sportdog. If SCH was changed more like some of the workingcertifications for a policedog(longer tracks,more searchwork that dremands much huntdrive, more challanging protection etc) then maybe this would have the effect that more mediocre dogs couldn´t go so far in the sport. But again I doubt this will happen in germany anytime soon if even SCH is controversial.


That's what I'm talking about. Those SAR dogs can protect. Most of the dogs I've met, those real SAR dogs, are very well capable to protect. I believe, if you breed for work, true work, they will not lose that ability because they need the same attributes that they would need for protection. I believe that one does not go without the other.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Awww Cliff, you're never boring.





cliffson1 said:


> <snipped> So in order to improve, we assess, compare, differentiate, and naybe see some things that could help improve things.....thats all....kinda boring....I know, and of course its not enticing for the warm and fuzzy posters, still some of us would like to also have some serious dialogue about things of substance in the breed along with the million other topics on the forum.


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## Andaka

I have been carefully reading this thread (yes, all 16 pages of it), and I have pretty much stayed out of the conversation beecause I don't participate in Schutzhund, and I breed those "pretty dogs" that most people on this board like to belittle. There are those among you that would even look down upon the high level oedience that I do and not consider it "work". But that doesn't mean I don't know a good sound dog when I see it. With this last litter I decided to incoporate some German blood into my breeding program. I used a 1/2 DDR bitch to breed to my full ASL stud. I got a fabulous dog that does obedience, rally, and agility, is very social, and passed the GSDCA temperament test at 18 months. When my health improves I will be looking for a full DDR bitch with the temperament and structure that I want to continue forward with.


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## carmspack

a thread like this provides exposure.

so many opinions , without any first hand personal experience .

Cliff you and I and some others who have responded have that first hand experience with those wanting and needing dogs for work. "We" have bred them, raised them, assessed them, and have placed them into WORK. Real work.

Realistically the number of people that have this experience or exposure is much smaller than the % of people who would have experience or exposure to and with schutzhund sport , and even a higher % experience the pet portion.

One thing that people tend to forget is that a working dog is not going through the motions once a day and then is lounging around . Work is long and hard . The dog has to have mental and physical stamina. A lot of self initiated drive . This is one of the things you can not test for and is missing in sport evaluations . The dog has to overcome extremes in temperature --- imagine doing car searches at a busy International Bridge - day in and day out . Another is the ability to work in close quarters in crowds , and remain stable and calm . Calm in exciting situations , in control of self and situation. That is another big thing missing. 

There are no off days -- Dogs that can not perform reliably are of no value and they are "outta here" , which is how it should be , too much at stake .


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## gsdsar

As a trainer and handler if working SAR dogs, the biggest issue I see is how hard it is to evaluate " work ethic" 

Dogs come through that seem to have everything you want, but then push comes to shove and they shut down before finishing the job. Sometimes that issue does not present itself until much later in training. Mainly because the early part if training is very fun, short, and motivational. When you start asking for a dog to manage their intensity, flip in and out of drive, engage and interact with lots if people, in bad and good weather, for hours on hours. That's when the wheat is separated from chafe. But again, it's often not seen until late in training. 

So, to you experienced breeders, how do you evaluate that?? A dog that can handle pressure of real work? At what age do you expect to see and be able to evaluate something like that? Can I look at my 15 week old puppy and know if he has work ethic? Not drive, work ethic? 


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## carmspack

THAT or THIS "

As a trainer and handler if working SAR dogs, the biggest issue I see is how hard it is to evaluate " work ethic" 

Dogs come through that seem to have everything you want, but then push comes to shove and they shut down before finishing the job. Sometimes that issue does not present itself until much later in training. Mainly because the early part if training is very fun, short, and motivational. When you start asking for a dog to manage their intensity, flip in and out of drive, engage and interact with lots if people, in bad and good weather, for hours on hours. That's when the wheat is separated from chafe. But again, it's often not seen until late in training."

Is EXACTLY what I was talking about in the response just before yours gsdsar .

The last time I mentioned work ethic in a post there were a flood of responses saying that there is no such thing . Really.

Intensity is not seen as some physical busyness . It is the bloodyminded task oriented drive to complete something without support or constant need for reward. Stand bank and let it unfold.
15 weeks , doable . On the forum though you would have people say "baby" , handle with kid gloves , bribe and coax , and carry the dog up the stairs , and shelter the dog --- maybe necessary for some or for many- but not for me.

Dogs this young and younger will show their native drives .


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## gsdsar

When you are working a Wliderness on a 160 ac multiply victim problem, you see work ethic. Dogs cannot maintain " drive" the whole 5-6 hours. They go inane out if drive the whole time. They get stressed and tired, and confused. They continue. That's work ethic. And it's hard to test for. In a young pup. 

I look at my new pup, USAR prospect, and I see him try. He tries a lot. He does not like to give up. But... I don't think right now I can tell if he will have what it takes to make it. I don't think you can evaluate it. I can encourage and reward. But I will have to wait. 

Training things like detection dogs, I think is similar. Can I train a dog to find a scent. Yes. Will I know that they will continue to search for that scent 7.5 hours in blazing heat on the border day after day, NO. I don't think you really know until its asked of the dog. You can get an idea. But until its asked of the dog, it's an unknown. 


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## Mrs.K

gsdsar said:


> When you are working a Wliderness on a 160 ac multiply victim problem, you see work ethic. Dogs cannot maintain " drive" the whole 5-6 hours. They go inane out if drive the whole time. They get stressed and tired, and confused. They continue. That's work ethic. And it's hard to test for. In a young pup.
> 
> I look at my new pup, USAR prospect, and I see him try. He tries a lot. He does not like to give up. But... I don't think right now I can tell if he will have what it takes to make it. I don't think you can evaluate it. I can encourage and reward. But I will have to wait.
> 
> Training things like detection dogs, I think is similar. Can I train a dog to find a scent. Yes. Will I know that they will continue to search for that scent 7.5 hours in blazing heat on the border day after day, NO. I don't think you really know until its asked of the dog. You can get an idea. But until its asked of the dog, it's an unknown.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That is why I have said, true SAR dogs. Those dogs that will search a 100/160 acres with multiple subjects out there and wont give up are def. Breed worthy.

A dog cannot be made, there is no covering up of the dogs short comings in sar. 

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## gsdsar

Mrs.K said:


> That is why I have said, true SAR dogs. Those dogs that will search a 100/160 acres with multiple subjects out there and wont give up are def. Breed worthy.
> 
> A dog cannot be made, there is no covering up of the dogs short comings in sar.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh there is covering up. There are some "operational SAR" dogs out there that have no business working. SAR has become very popular. And with the lack of a National accepted standard, anyone can say they have a SAR dog. It's a sad truth. And again it comes down to the team and the handler. 

I would NEVER field a dog that I thought lacked something. If I would not have my dog look for my kids( if I had them ) then I won't have them look for someone else's. but that's me. When I realized I could not dedicate the time needed to maintain a Wilderness dog and a USAR dog, I stopped wilderness. I refuse to do SAR half butted. To me it is not a hobby. I take it seriously. But in today's climate there are lots of bad dogs out there claiming to be SAR dogs that are not. 

But a real SAR dog. A real one. They ARE breed worthy. They tap into drives that a SchH dog does. 

I think it all comes down to people. How we, as handlers and trainers, use the information and certifications. It is up to us, to decide what is breed worthy and not rely on tests, titles, or certifications to make that decision for us. Can they help narrow things down, sure. But in the end it's a big picture we need to see. 


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## Mrs.K

gsdsar said:


> Oh there is covering up. There are some "operational SAR" dogs out there that have no business working. SAR has become very popular. And with the lack of a National accepted standard, anyone can say they have a SAR dog. It's a sad truth. And again it comes down to the team and the handler.
> 
> I would NEVER field a dog that I thought lacked something. If I would not have my dog look for my kids( if I had them ) then I won't have them look for someone else's. but that's me. When I realized I could not dedicate the time needed to maintain a Wilderness dog and a USAR dog, I stopped wilderness. I refuse to do SAR half butted. To me it is not a hobby. I take it seriously. But in today's climate there are lots of bad dogs out there claiming to be SAR dogs that are not.
> 
> But a real SAR dog. A real one. They ARE breed worthy. They tap into drives that a SchH dog does.
> 
> I think it all comes down to people. How we, as handlers and trainers, use the information and certifications. It is up to us, to decide what is breed worthy and not rely on tests, titles, or certifications to make that decision for us. Can they help narrow things down, sure. But in the end it's a big picture we need to see.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh, I agree with you. Lots of politics involved as well and dogs that should not do it, however, if you go out flanking a dog and you wittness the dog quit, there is no way to cover that up. 
I know a dog that failed his 100 acres test twice. No way to cover that up either... a handler team that fails twice...for me, personally that'd be it. Either it is the dog or an extremely incompetent handler that should not be out there testing yet...


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## carmspack

check your PM gsdsar --


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## cliffson1

The work ethic part is very very important to the breed. Carmen and gsdsar are onpoint in bringing this out. This is part of what I was trying to delve into with the start of this post. Generations and generations of breeding dogs that are never utilized in work venues dulls the breeders sense to traits collectively that are needed to keep work ethic in the breed. The show/sport environment is very finite and patterned....it does not take a dog long to understand the boundaries.(just like your dog knows the days and times and distances you travel when you go to the same training place month after month)....breeders are losing the intrinsic nature of the breed often to drives and less than stellar nerves. The ability to work in new environments, climatic changes, chaos, different smells and sounds invading the dog and maintain intensity and bidability to task and handler is one of the joys of this breed. How do you know? There is no science, but like Carmen said, when some of your pups do go into working venues, over time you start to see the similar traits at a young age that has proven in the past to be successful in work. Now if the dogs you breed seldom if ever go no further than a sport field or show ring or family, then it is easy to lose sight of these traits much less ensure they are part of your breeding program. After many generations of breeding with this lack of focus on these elements, then breeders start producing dogs incapable of possessing strong work ethic, bombproof nerves, clearheadeness under stress, and other intangibles that are needed for transition to work. Many of us feel that this is a major reason the breed is slipping in working venues. The same with environmental nerves, folks would be surprised at how many dogs are environmentally unsure when in new and challenging conditions, but again this is area that show/sport breeding does not have to emphasize to be successful.....and most don't. 
So for you new breeders, you have to do your homework for maintaining these traits, because breeders that put as much priority on these type issues as they do on hips, gait, grips, prey drive, will breed dogs that make easier adjustments as pets as well as other things.


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## sitstay

cliffson1 said:


> The work ethic part is very very important to the breed. Carmen and gsdsar are onpoint in bringing this out. This is part of what I was trying to delve into with the start of this post. Generations and generations of breeding dogs that are never utilized in work venues dulls the breeders sense to traits collectively that are needed to keep work ethic in the breed. The show/sport environment is very finite and patterned....it does not take a dog long to understand the boundaries.(just like your dog knows the days and times and distances you travel when you go to the same training place month after month)....breeders are losing the intrinsic nature of the breed often to drives and less than stellar nerves. The ability to work in new environments, climatic changes, chaos, different smells and sounds invading the dog and maintain intensity and bidability to task and handler is one of the joys of this breed. How do you know? There is no science, but like Carmen said, when some of your pups do go into working venues, over time you start to see the similar traits at a young age that has proven in the past to be successful in work. Now if the dogs you breed seldom if ever go no further than a sport field or show ring or family, then it is easy to lose sight of these traits much less ensure they are part of your breeding program. After many generations of breeding with this lack of focus on these elements, then breeders start producing dogs incapable of possessing strong work ethic, bombproof nerves, clearheadeness under stress, and other intangibles that are needed for transition to work. Many of us feel that this is a major reason the breed is slipping in working venues. The same with environmental nerves, folks would be surprised at how many dogs are environmentally unsure when in new and challenging conditions, but again this is area that show/sport breeding does not have to emphasize to be successful.....and most don't.
> So for you new breeders, you have to do your homework for maintaining these traits, because breeders that put as much priority on these type issues as they do on hips, gait, grips, prey drive, will breed dogs that make easier adjustments as pets as well as other things.


 Excellent post.
Sheilah


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## martemchik

gsdsar said:


> I think it all comes down to people. How we, as handlers and trainers, use the information and certifications. It is up to us, to decide what is breed worthy and not rely on tests, titles, or certifications to make that decision for us. Can they help narrow things down, sure. But in the end it's a big picture we need to see.


But here is why titles are important in this world. A title, is an unbiased (as much as can be) objective, test of the dog, by an outside party. As breeders, most of you care for your dogs, train your dogs, and lets be serious...love your dogs. It takes a very strong person, and someone extremely committed to the breed standard to see the faults in their own dogs, and to that same extent...not want to breed a dog that they've worked for 2, 3, or more years.

Mrs. K is talking about SAR, and is getting told that since those dogs don't get tested in "protection" they might not have what it takes and therefore SAR should not be used as a test. Well...she knows her dog can do SchH, she just chooses not to, does that really make the dog not breedworthy? Same with people doing AKC obedience...can't remember how many times UDX has been slammed for not being a good enough test, when all I was saying that the training/trialing for that should prove to the handler if that dog deserves to be bred or not...

So that's where this no titles talk confuses me...it pretty much says that unless its been "accepted" by various people that YOU know what you're doing, or that YOUR opinion of what should be bred matches others (in this case cliff, carmen, or any of the other WL breeders that have chimed in), you aren't doing it right. And no amount of titles will prove that you are because there is that chance that those dogs are just sport dogs and don't have what it takes to be the true example of the breed and working.

Sorry but it sounds to me like its been boiled down to this...if you haven't proven yourself as a breeder by consistently placing dogs in working venues, give up and find a new hobby. Doesn't matter how many SchH3, UDX, OTCH, MACH, dogs you've bred...if you don't produce a police dog every other litter, you're doing something wrong.


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## David Taggart

> The show/sport environment is very finite and patterned....


Yes, it is true, but it is much better than nothing, otherwise there will be nothing to choose from, there would be no "old type" able to make his own decisions on the basis of training, I think, sports conserve the resources.. What about people? Those, who train the dog and hold the licence - they walk in big heards, and those who are involved in real work are very few. Same as working dogs, one in hundred will be admitted ... 
How to Become a Guard Dog Trainer: Step-by-Step Career Guide


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## björn

This is not rocket science Say a breeder who wants to produce dogs suited for policework, first he needs to know what it takes to be able to do the work, secondly, he uses dogs that have enough ability to produce such dogs, in other words dogs which drives/mentality are genetic and not mediocre dogs that have nice titles but really not always are the best for breeding. Some of the best breeders I know of when it comes to producing dogs for service are not looking for titles firstly, it´s the genetics that counts. Quite many of the dogs used are dogs in service, dogs that said was to much for certain handlers etc, or sometimes dogs titled in sport, but they don´t choose dogs only because he is succesfull on competitions if the dog doesn´t have what they want.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Andaka said:


> I have been carefully reading this thread (yes, all 16 pages of it), and I have pretty much stayed out of the conversation beecause I don't participate in Schutzhund, and I breed those "pretty dogs" that most people on this board like to belittle. There are those among you that would even look down upon the high level oedience that I do and not consider it "work". But that doesn't mean I don't know a good sound dog when I see it. With this last litter I decided to incoporate some German blood into my breeding program. I used a 1/2 DDR bitch to breed to my full ASL stud. I got a fabulous dog that does obedience, rally, and agility, is very social, and passed the GSDCA temperament test at 18 months. When my health improves I will be looking for a full DDR bitch with the temperament and structure that I want to continue forward with.


 

Daphne is this the guy I met at nationlas last year? Very nice dog. I have been perusing this thread and agree with most posts. There is no one way to test a dog's overall mental soundness, physical agility or working ability. It is the diversity and the whole package. 

I like that many ASL breeders are beginning to bring in some working line dogs to improve workablity and stability in the ASL. There are some wonderful ASL out ther, and there are some not so wonderful. But that goes for all lines.


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## carmspack

"Doesn't matter how many SchH3, UDX, OTCH, MACH, dogs you've bred" congratulations would be forthcoming but for the person needing to know some of the values of the dog , sometimes these titles indicate a greater tenacity of the owner/handler than it does of the animal.
There is nothing that reveals anything about the dogs "work ethic" . It says nothing about the dogs ability to work clearly under stress , or - importantly - to think and work independently to achieve a goal as working dogs must , whether it be the intelligent disobedience of a guide dog, the search dog working an area , the working herding dog.

A SAR dog if it is a GSD should be able to do bite work because that is what is part and parcel of a good , whole GSD character. A SAR dog of any other breed , not necessary. A GSD , yes -- although the dog ought to be so stable and so clear that a bite need never be employed. You don't select GSD to be SAR because they fail in that dept so what else do we do with them -- SAR? No. 

I have several active PD's that have found elderly people with Alzheimers wandering in blizzard conditions (Ace) and here Kawartha Lakes Police Service, currently have a male recently adding SAR cert to his credits AFTER years of being an active , successful PD k9, the "chief's" dog . Chief retired - dog still has years of working life ahead so went into further specialized training as SAR . In this thread we are talking about the utility and the versatility which is possible in ONE dog , not one breed, one dog , which is the hallmark of a GSD. 

Another thing very important to a working dog is a rugged healthy constitution to be able to weather stress . Natural health !


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> "Doesn't matter how many SchH3, UDX, OTCH, MACH, dogs you've bred" congratulations would be forthcoming but for the person needing to know some of the values of the dog , sometimes these titles indicate a greater tenacity of the owner/handler than it does of the animal.
> There is nothing that reveals anything about the dogs "work ethic" . It says nothing about the dogs ability to work clearly under stress , or - importantly - to think and work independently to achieve a goal as working dogs must , whether it be the intelligent disobedience of a guide dog, the search dog working an area , the working herding dog.
> 
> A SAR dog if it is a GSD should be able to do bite work because that is what is part and parcel of a good , whole GSD character. A SAR dog of any other breed , not necessary. A GSD , yes -- although the dog ought to be so stable and so clear that a bite need never be employed. You don't select GSD to be SAR because they fail in that dept so what else do we do with them -- SAR? No.
> 
> I have several active PD's that have found elderly people with Alzheimers wandering in blizzard conditions (Ace) and here Kawartha Lakes Police Service, currently have a male recently adding SAR cert to his credits AFTER years of being an active , successful PD k9, the "chief's" dog . Chief retired - dog still has years of working life ahead so went into further specialized training as SAR . In this thread we are talking about the utility and the versatility which is possible in ONE dog , not one breed, one dog , which is the hallmark of a GSD.
> 
> Another thing very important to a working dog is a rugged healthy constitution to be able to weather stress . Natural health !


AGREED,!!!

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## cliffson1

How you get give up and find a new hobby out of what I wrote is above my comphrehension.....I gave an opinion based on what I have done on how to retain certain qualities in the breed that appear to be slipping....I would like for others to talk about how they see us holding on to these traits through the breeding practices they are utilizing. 
I certainly didn't surmise that from some post saying that they don't see how you can be objective without title, that in turn everyone else should just pack up and stop breeding....smh. 
I'm still interested from breeders what their approach to ensuring environmental soundness that seems to plague the breed these days, or do breeders even think this is important?


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## Andaka

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Daphne is this the guy I met at nationlas last year? Very nice dog. I have been perusing this thread and agree with most posts. There is no one way to test a dog's overall mental soundness, physical agility or working ability. It is the diversity and the whole package.
> 
> I like that many ASL breeders are beginning to bring in some working line dogs to improve workablity and stability in the ASL. There are some wonderful ASL out ther, and there are some not so wonderful. But that goes for all lines.


Yes, it is the same dog, and I am very pleased with him. He is training in Utility and Agility, and we are trialing for our RAE this summer (3/10 of the way there!). He is very willing, has good hunt drive, and loves to retrieve.


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## gsdsar

Cliffson, how do YOU evaluate a young dogs work ethic? Seeing as how this is so important to my field of work, I would love to hear from an experienced breeder of working dogs how this is done. I work USAR dogs. So not only am I needing an environmentally sound dog, but one that is confident, agile, driven and able to work in short bursts over and over for 12 hour days. To my Lab, it's always a game and fun. To a GSD, it's fun WORK. Very different attitudes 

What tests can I do with a young puppy that would show this very important trait? It's something that I find much more important in a GSD than a Labrador. I work both. It's not as big an issue with Labs. But because we tap into different drives with a GSD than a Lab, it makes all the difference when trying to evaluate a young GSD for the work. 

GSD are "thinkers". They stop and evaluate and don't blindly rush in, like Labs. So a strong ethic is important, because they have to make the decision to do what I am asking because they WANT to work. 

So when evaluating a litter, what traits do you look for, specifically, that separates a sport dog from an LE dog or a SAR dog? 

Not just Cliffson, I would love any and all breeders to respond. 


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## x11

cliff you are asking specific questions of BREEDERS, how many breeders do you think are reading these posts, Lee, Carmen, Ang...couple more? you know there philosophies already and they are not disagreeing with you. 

not sure what you want to get out of this thread as you imo seem to despise the newb input and the only breeders listening already agree with you so i am missing the point of yr quest.

you can so much educate us newbs but you also want to lock us out of the debate??


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## Xeph

I can say first hand that Cliff most definitely does not despise "newb input"


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## gsdsar

Wow x11. Such venom. Not sure where it comes from. Honestly at a loss as to your nasty dismissive tone. 

I ask breeders, because I don't breed. I ask breeders because they say they can breed for work. So I want to be educated on their ways of determining which puppy in a litter will have the desired traits I want. It's not an exclusive or even an inclusive question. I have never dismissed an opinion, I am an open book. I have experience where I have it. But even I know my limitations. 

I have a puppy right now, I am looking for things to try with him to get an idea of his suitability for the work I want to do. Someone who has never owned/bred/titled/worked a dog can most likely not give input. Sorry if you feel my post was redunant or exclusive, please give your input. 




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## x11

not intended to be snarky, just a bit lost on the purpose of the thread at this point as the same points seem to be getting repeated over and over , thread imo seems to be spinning it's wheels imo and i sought clarification. you misundertood my intention, apologies if i sounded dismissive.

again was not intended as snarky.


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## x11

Xeph said:


> I can say first hand that Cliff most definitely does not despise "newb input"


you will find posts in this thread that indicate otherwise imo.


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## Xeph

You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree with it  C'est la vie


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## x11

Xeph said:


> You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree with it  C'est la vie


 
WWWHHAAAAT, two people on the internet disagree :laugh:


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## cliffson1

You know, people have different passions of the breed. Some of mine are pedigrees, breeding, and working, and training. Now there are many other involvements in the breed. Like agility, rescue, conformation, rally, etc. I don't jump into those areas challenging people that I know are actively involved, because I understand that I don't know enough about those things to challenge experienced participants without making a fool out of myself. I may ask a question in those areas, but I read those areas to learn as opposed to making specific statements based on no real knowledge. I don't have a need to participate in every thread, or feel excluded in not participating in areas that I really know little about. Oh I could probably bogart my way into those areas because I have been around the breed a minute, but I chose to respect the participants and subject matter, by reading and learning. So I confine myself to areas of the breed that I know a little bit and can hopefully bring some perspective from experience. 
I have tried to be helpful in these areas and have shared of my time, but sometimes I would like to discuss some of the meat issues of these few topics, and of course everyone is not interested or knowledgable about breeding.....but does that mean the ones that are and are willing to participate can't do so without others feeling they are being shunned??? And what about the silent ones that enjoy reading these threads for the perspective , are they offended?, breeders that do things differently have every right and are encouraged to bring their perspective, but that also means bring data or solid examples to make their points. 
I'm at the point that I feel like I have to only start warm and fuzzy threads that everyone regardless of their involvement in the breed will be able to opine on. If no one is interested or knowledgable about a thread, it dies an early death....happens all the time, but I guess generic feel good things are only safe things to discuss these days without somebody making a claim that newbs are not wanted. That's a smokescreen, but some issues in the breed take a long time to understand and newer people are often better suited to learn instead of advise....is that a crime?
To those of you not complaining, I am sorry for the rant, for those that feel the subject matter is redundant, I apologize, and for those of you really interested in discussing some of this stuff deeper...send me a pm and I will give you my number and we can talk dogs!


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## gsdsar

X11. I apologize. Missed the first two words of the post I responded to. I thought it was directed at me. 

That said, I don't think Cliffson is against newbs. I have not gotten that at all. I have a lot to learn. I do some of that on this board, but most I do by getting out and working dogs and seeing others work and giving my input and seeing if it works. 

Noone is an expert. I posted my questions to help move the thread forward. We all talk about things, but I want tried and true methods. It may not be possible to get, but it's nice to have someone try to put in to words things I don't yet understand. 

When someone thinks they have nothing left to learn, they should get out. That goes for everything in life. We should always be learning, opening our minds to new ideas, and sometimes learning is teaching. 


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## Merciel

carmspack said:


> "Doesn't matter how many SchH3, UDX, OTCH, MACH, dogs you've bred" congratulations would be forthcoming but for the person needing to know some of the values of the dog , sometimes these titles indicate a greater tenacity of the owner/handler than it does of the animal.
> * There is nothing that reveals anything about the dogs "work ethic" .* It says nothing about the dogs ability to work clearly under stress , or - importantly - to think and work independently to achieve a goal as working dogs must , whether it be the intelligent disobedience of a guide dog, the search dog working an area , the working herding dog.


That I have to disagree with.

It would be fair to say that maybe those titles don't indicate _enough_ about the dog's work ethic for your satisfaction, or don't distinguish the particular traits that differentiate a GSD from a Golden Retriever (because god knows plenty of them have earned it), but "nothing" is more than a little hyperbolic.

Most dogs cannot attain those titles. Sometimes it's because the handler isn't good enough. But sometimes it's because the dog isn't good enough, and work ethic is a huge part of that. It is HARD for a dog to focus in the show environment. It is hard for a dog to stay "on" for 6 to 10 hours, perform quickly and precisely when called upon, and then immediately turn "off" in an unfamiliar, stranger-filled, often noisy environment. By the end of a long trial day, I see dogs falling apart left and right. And those are the ones that were intelligent, athletic, and trainable enough to have a shot in the competition at all.

Is it as hard as actual field work? No, of course not. But it still IS hard, and it's still something that the great majority of dogs have no prayer of ever doing. All the training in the world won't make my current dog OTCH material. The whole reason I want a working line GSD for my next dog is because I want a dog who _is_. If that title didn't require a dog with a serious work ethic and stable temperament, I'd go right back to looking at the pound.


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## BahCan

Cliff...I am one of the silent ones, I rarely post, I simply enjoy reading to further educate myself, I make a point to read certain peoples posts and yours is one of them, please continue on with the topic, its very educational.


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## Merciel

BahCan said:


> Cliff...I am one of the silent ones, I rarely post, I simply enjoy reading to further educate myself, I make a point to read certain peoples posts and yours is one of them, please continue on with the topic, its very educational.


Yes, +1 to that.

And also I guess I should have said that I always really appreciate carmspack's posts too. My previous post might have come off as more adversarial than I meant, and if so, I'm sorry for that. As a newbie it's been really amazing to come here and find people who know so much about the breed.

(But I'm gonna stand by my conviction that an OTCH is seriously hard to earn. I've been peeking over at the golden retriever forums and _they_ have no problem bragging about _their_ OTCH pedigrees -- even as they agonize over hunt tests in exactly the way people here agonize over SchH as a proxy for the dog's "real function" -- and you know what, I bet that's part of why the Goldens and Lab people keep winning NOC year after year, while there's only one GSD who even _has_ an OTCH in this year's rankings. Bananas!)


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## carmspack

well Merciel , that's okay . I appreciate your comments. I am used to adversarial. Took the laughter in stride when 25 years ago I recommended coconut oil for dogs, offered it in a blend . Always the coconut portion got questioned, "what ? do you think dogs are monkeys?" Then when I went public with the blend , same thing , always had to defend or explain the coconut oil. Now everyone and they're brother recommends , uses , coconut oil .
Same thing when I announced to my vet that, and more , years ago , that I would not be doing boosters . All the spspssps was that I was economizing , which was not at all the reason . The same with feeding raw . Interviewed and included in a glossy breed magazine 1983 , at which point I already had been feeding raw a minimum of 5 years .

So then , the GSD and the OTCH . The obedience ring is a very familiar place to me . I have had several Dog World Awards of Canine Distinction, including a mother - daughter team . The daughter attaining CD in 3 consecutive trials average score 197.5 . Deliberately chose tough judges to give the prize some meaning. The dog was 9 months of age . 
I have had Multi high in trial . Year end top 10 in national trialing points all breeds compilation. Earned OGV , Obedience Grand Victrix 199.5 -- lost the half point for a toe nail tick over a jump . Went in cold turkey with no pre-trial prep . Female had litter of pups at home -- well under way to being weaned , but none the less , the dog had not been spruced up with training and she had gained some weight , and her teats were gaining as the day went on. OGV.

Had another in competition who ranked #1 with minimal trials -- then at almost year end owner had major family crisis and discountinued trialing. It took the second place dog 7 remaining trials to close the gap and surpass with one or two point advantage . 

You have to know information beyond the title .

The obedience ring -- did my years of hanging around ring stewarding , doing apprenticeship for obedience judge . Lots of opportunity to see dogs .

Saw a lot of fragile dogs . Not a particularly robust temperament . Walking on egg shells . Sour performance . Stage fright . I've seen too many dogs who are there who would rather be home on the couch , in the air conditioned room . 

I stand by what I said about the work ethic -- you sort of help make that point when you said " It is HARD for a dog to focus in the show environment. It is hard for a dog to stay "on" for 6 to 10 hours, perform quickly and precisely when called upon, and then immediately turn "off" in an unfamiliar, stranger-filled, often noisy environment. By the end of a long trial day, I see dogs falling apart left and right. "

but those dogs are not there for 6 to 10 hours in that environment , and not there for that time period performing. The ring experience including the sits and stays is about 15 minutes. Some can't function in indoor trials , do alright in outdoors . The title at the end may have been with consistent low scores, or be earned after multiple tries .
Watch the pre-ring bribing and warm-ups ! making happy with the squeaky toy for motivation, the look of attention, the bit of a boost to make for a look of interest or animation. 

This venue does not test for work ethic . "It would be fair to say that maybe those titles don't indicate _enough_ about the dog's work ethic for your satisfaction"

This is fair . The problem is that I do place dogs into work .
Do you think a GSD working huge Republican conventions as a bomb dog has to have work ethic ? Disaster search?
Working in a maximum prison? Guide work?

Real work requires a durable , resilient , motivated , reliable , tenacious , dog.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> You have to know information beyond the title .


That's exactly my point. All of you "reputable breeders" making remarks on this forum have the experience and your peer's acceptance that you can make judgement calls beyond titles. But what about for newer people, people that are just starting, people that have the same opinions as you but haven't been proven yet...if they chose to breed to something that wasn't spectacularly titled or titled at all...you'd question, challenge, and if someone posted a question on what the forum thinks about that breeder, all you'd see is RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG.

HOW is someone supposed to get the acceptance to do such breedings without having to prove themselves over 20 years? I believe the answer to that is that you shouldn't worry about answering to anyone, you should breed for yourself and for the improvement of the breed, but in today's day and age of everything being discussed on the internet, people asking opinions from other's who have no direct knowledge of those dogs...doesn't seem fair when a breeder might be doing something along the lines of what cliff is talking about but because they haven't "proven" it in the Schutzhund ring, or its just not apparent that they have...they'll get knocked down a peg.

It's not that I disagree with Cliff's OP or what he's trying to say, its that I've spoken with just as "knowledgeable" of people that focus the same type of effort on the structure of their dogs (with little regard for working ability). I don't agree with what those people are doing, but they can make just as convincing and passionate of arguments that cliff is making...and they have just as many people that follow what they think about breeding GSD as what the working line breeders on this site do.


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## cliffson1

A few of us are not trying to put down others, but discuss and educate and think, on the different challenges to breeding today that is causing our breed to no longer be looked at in the same light by working people. My opinion of the value of titles is to set the structural and temperament parameters for breeders to use to demonstrate to the working/service people what will best provide them with material for working services. The conformation of the ring should be able to seamlessly transition to work, the temperament of the performance title should seamlessly transition into work. (That's any work in utility realm) 
So breeders must always expect a spectrum of temperaments, colors, shades of pigments, varying sizes, varying drives, etc, because the breed is comprised of dogs that possess all these differences. Once you start going down path of uniform too big, uniform same color, uniform docile, uniform Malinois drive, uniform big heads, then you are creating something new and inconsistent with breed standard. When you do it for generations, then we have lost our way. Well you say Cliff, how can you determine if the way is lost.....good question. Remember the GS is a working dog by nature, and it's an utility dog by service, meaning the working can range from passive service....guide, to protective service.....to herding service.....to searching and detection service, all in working with man. So if as a breeder, if I got this right, then the dogs I am breeding should be capable of the transition into service if OPPORTUNITY and demand presents itself. Recognizing that society has evolved so that most breeders have dogs that go to families as they well should, STILL, as a breeder my ethics demands that I am breeding dogs that are fully capable of service work if the time and opportunity is right, and if that particular pup in the litter is right. My mentality as a breeder has and will always be that I strive to produce dogs that are saving people, leading people, protecting people, guiding people, finding people, etc.....there is no greater satisfaction as a breeder than one of your dogs doing these things. Because you know your work has transferred to the dog being and doing what it was made to do. All pups won't end up there, but our standard of breeding must be that our litters possess inside the wide range of utility function....otherwise we will start losing the utility. Well how do you know if the breed is losing its utility Cliff....again go back to the users of guide, and protect, and search, and detect, and herd, and ask them do they feel breeders are producing dogs that are capable of meeting the demand. Cause dogs are being used now more than ever....
Lastly, this type of breeding is NOT inconsistent with providing dogs for families and pets! (Notice I don't call this show or sport breeding because these elements have often lost versatility in terms of adjusting well)
Actually, breeding for work utility provides awesome family dogs also at I would say a higher percentage. Out of my last sixty some dogs I personally bred, I only had one dog returned, and this was because the lady became afflicted with MS and had lost her mobility, was working on her CDX and felt it was only fair to the dog to let me find a home the dog could still work...the dog never got past my club as a member took the dog and put multiple tiles on the dog and everything worked out.but my point is probably fifty of the sixty dogs went to families and even first time families....non returned, no shelters, rescues,etc that I know of...plenty of Xmas cards and referrals from people wanting dogs like their friends.
So breeding for what these dogs should be is a mindset, that requires due diligence on the breeders part( hey but if you are not willing to learn and understand the utility of this breed how can you breed for it?), constant review and knowledge of uses of the dogs, and breeding for work is not inconsistent with breeding for families or pets.


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## Merciel

carmspack said:


> So then , the GSD and the OTCH . The obedience ring is a very familiar place to me . I have had several Dog World Awards of Canine Distinction, including a mother - daughter team . The daughter attaining CD in 3 consecutive trials average score 197.5 . Deliberately chose tough judges to give the prize some meaning. The dog was 9 months of age .
> I have had Multi high in trial . Year end top 10 in national trialing points all breeds compilation. Earned OGV , Obedience Grand Victrix 199.5 -- lost the half point for a toe nail tick over a jump . Went in cold turkey with no pre-trial prep . Female had litter of pups at home -- well under way to being weaned , but none the less , the dog had not been spruced up with training and she had gained some weight , and her teats were gaining as the day went on. OGV.
> 
> You have to know information beyond the title .
> 
> The obedience ring -- did my years of hanging around ring stewarding , doing apprenticeship for obedience judge . Lots of opportunity to see dogs .
> 
> Saw a lot of fragile dogs . Not a particularly robust temperament . Walking on egg shells . Sour performance . Stage fright . I've seen too many dogs who are there who would rather be home on the couch , in the air conditioned room .
> 
> I stand by what I said about the work ethic -- you sort of help make that point when you said " It is HARD for a dog to focus in the show environment. It is hard for a dog to stay "on" for 6 to 10 hours, perform quickly and precisely when called upon, and then immediately turn "off" in an unfamiliar, stranger-filled, often noisy environment. By the end of a long trial day, I see dogs falling apart left and right. "
> 
> but those dogs are not there for 6 to 10 hours in that environment , and not there for that time period performing. The ring experience including the sits and stays is about 15 minutes. Some can't function in indoor trials , do alright in outdoors . The title at the end may have been with consistent low scores, or be earned after multiple tries .
> 
> This is fair . The problem is that I do place dogs into work .


(1) Those accomplishments are AWESOME, seriously impressive for both dogs and handlers. Congrats! I aspire to get _one_ dog who gets _one_ OTCH (and, in the process, lands on the top 10 list for obedience GSDs in that year) and then my life goals in that area will be set. For now, anyhow. 

(2) re: sour performances and stage fright -- yes, exactly, that's why I want a working dog so badly! I want to go into the ring and get a happy, precise, _connected_ performance. You need a special dog (and a lot of careful training) to get that. I don't want stage fright or a flat lifeless by-the-motions dog like you see from some of the heavy compulsion trainers. I want a dog who loves work.

(3) on the 6-to-10-hour workday: It's true that the dog is not in the ring for that period of time. But at least around here, at the trials I've done, the dog is in the crating area for that period. Less stressful, but still not easy, and often very tiring for the dogs.

In a World Cynosport Rally trial, there are usually two or three sets of runs at three or four levels apiece (depending on whether your dog is also doing special classes like Junior or Veterans). So a typical ring day for a high-level dog will involve doing a 90-to-150-second run, going back to the crating area for an hour or so, doing another run, going back to the crating area for 15 minutes, doing another run, etc. It's a steady on-and-off for 6 to 10 hours, 6 to 12 runs, and the "off" periods are still pretty stressful for a nervy dog. I think agility trials are probably similar in this respect, although I don't do agility so I don't actually know for sure.

You can struggle through with lifeless performances and low scores, but serious competitors need quick performances (because time counts for placements) and precise dogs (because accuracy determines your point scores and you cannot achieve the combined championships or national rankings with lousy scores). The courses are longer and harder than in AKC Rally, and I think in general it's a more competitive venue, particularly after USDAA acquired the program. To do well, you need a dog who has the stamina and attention span to _work_. Nothing like a security dog, but still more than many dogs can manage.

I don't think we actually disagree about anything substantive, fwiw. I am 100% on board with your statement that a REAL working dog needs to be able to do everything I described and then a whole lot more besides.

I do think that the pursuit of advanced titles and multi-sport titles is worthwhile for breeders, though. It's not the same as working certifications, which are obviously better for identifying working dogs and testing those traits. I'm not arguing that. But I _am_ going to say that titles in a pedigree hold some value -- not just in identifying dogs, but in reaching buyers. To the extent that there is an insufficient market for working pups (and I don't know if there is or not, as I am not a breeder and have zero experience in that area; I'm just going by what other people have posted about market pressures), I think titles in various sports help prove the value of working pedigrees to prospective buyers -- and increasing demand for working dogs in appropriate homes has to be a good thing, right?

As a prospective puppy buyer, I want a dog who can rule the ring in Rally and obedience. I'd like to _dabble_ in SchH and agility but I don't have serious goals in those sports right now, so those are lesser priorities. I definitely don't need a super-hard police dog or a low-key family pet.

If I see a breeder who has titled dogs in a variety of sports, I know that breeder understands what is required to do well in those sports and has dogs capable of performing in those venues. I trust that breeder to have a thorough understanding of her dogs (because she's trialed them in many different environments, asking for many different criteria) and to be able to identify the right puppy for me.

If I see working certifications, that's impressive too, but I have a harder time translating that into an understanding of what the dog has actually done to earn those certifications because, well, I just don't know. I have only the very vaguest notion of what those letters mean in terms of real-world performance. And something like "working K9" (which you see on a lot of websites) means absolutely nothing to me -- that could be something real or it could just be BYB "oh this dog comes from police lines!" puffery.

So, from a buyer's perspective, titles are useful in identifying which breeders I want to put on my shortlist. And that, in turn, supports breeders who are producing working line dogs.


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## Merciel

Oh, one other point I wanted to make (because, you know, my last post wasn't long enough...):

I do absolutely believe that titles alone are not enough to make informed breeding decisions.

My crazy mutt Pongu is a pretty good Rally dog. He has a good chance of hitting the national rankings for his championship division at the end of this year, assuming his mental and physical health hold up. This is his very first year of trialing; he's a newbie and I'm a newbie (he's my first dog of _any_ kind, let alone first sport dog) and for him to be within reach of national rankings on his first try is a pleasant surprise. Next year I aim to hit the top 20 overall (we probably can't do it this year because we're not trialing in Level 3B yet and it's already May, so I doubt we'll get the points. But next year, I think we have a shot).

But he is INSANE. He has all kinds of mental and physical problems and he will never even pass a simple CGC because he can't stand having a stranger touch him. He has to take Prozac every day or he self-mutilates. As a breeding prospect, Pongu would be an absolute disaster. The only reason to breed this dog would be if you wanted to unleash literal self-destruction in your line.

So no, titles alone are not a good identifier of which dogs should be bred. But they're surely useful information.


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## Wolfgeist

Not many people have the opportunity, time or money to work their dogs in real world jobs that test their nerve, strength, resilience, etc. 

That is why we rely on reputable, intelligent breeders with integrity to properly test and screen their breeding stock - so that healthy, correct dogs are being put out in the world.


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## hunterisgreat

cliffson1 said:


> People often ask me why I think the breed is better or worse than in the past. Overall, I think that the breed has suffered from the emphasis placed on breeding dogs for show/sport titles as opposed to breeding dogs for use in working certifications. I think the most important attributes of a well bred German Shepherd is intelligence and nerve making it capable for utility work. My problem with sport and show is that they are always performed in controlled environments thus allowing conditioned animals to achieve success though lacking vital traits. Dog certifications whether they are SAR, Seeing-eye, law Enforcement, etc require the dog to work in an open society in unexpected elements and make decisions that still allow them to accomplish their goals. This should be very important to a breeder, because it shows the dog's/breeds ability to adjust or adapt while in the process of service to man. These traits also make it easy for the breed to be good family dog as will as service dog. Today these type dogs are not looked upon favorably for breeding, but more so dogs that have achieved high results in controlled environments. We often NEVER see how our breeding selections handle themselves in open society OR how they think independently from a patterned routine. Actually, more dogs are selected for breeding because of a performance in a patterned routine. I think over years, this kind of emphasis on breed traits that are visible in these events as opposed to emphasizing breeding for traits that must be seen in uncontrolled environment....have led the breed in a direction that is drivier, and prettier, but not necessarily utilitarian. I would like to see a greater access and reliance on successful dogs with working certifications....I know for LE access is sometimes a problem, but truthfully, I see the problem as a mindset that feels that show/sport showcase important traits in the breed, and the most important trait...utility....cannot be seen in a controlled environment to my way of thinking.
> One last thing, in past titled dogs often trained in other venues after they achieved their titles to demonstrate the utility abilities of the dog....today people never let the dog leave the environment(show/sport) for which they BRED the dog for....and these become the reputable studs. I think this is faulty, and I think the condition of the breed in general supports this.


I can illustrate that concept in my own livingroom & pack lol.


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## Whiteshepherds

Wild Wolf said:


> That is why we rely on reputable, intelligent breeders with integrity to properly test and screen their breeding stock - so that healthy, correct dogs are being put out in the world.


And that brings the topic full circle...Who do you believe, who do you trust, what exactly do those titles tell you, how many real working dogs does another breeder have to produce before you know it's not a fluke, who's advice do you take when you first start out in breeding? It's pretty confusing. 

Anyway, I really appreciate these threads but it would be nice if you guys (Carmen, Cliff, Andaka etc.) could share some of your early experiences in breeding. What mistakes if any did you make, when did you finally begin to know you had it right?


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## Wolfgeist

Whiteshepherds said:


> And that brings the topic full circle...Who do you believe, who do you trust, what exactly do those titles tell you, how many real working dogs does another breeder have to produce before you know it's not a fluke, who's advice do you take when you first start out in breeding? It's pretty confusing.


I found an experienced breeder with an excellent reputation, I spent months talking with them on a variety of GSD related subjects, I looked closely at their breeding program (they put a lot of dogs in police, SAR, etc) and got to know many of the dogs they produced and watched their breeding stock work, videos, first hand stories, etc... investigated the pedigrees they bred... that is how I started to choose which breeder to go for. Proof is in the pudding, and all that.

I firmly believe many of the great breeders aren't helping potential new breeders learn how to do things right, or providing a good example and willingness to help and teach where they are able. What happens when this generation of breeders stop breeding? Who is going to continue the good breeding practices? No one, because our best breeders are keeping to themselves. People who come looking for knowledge, will breed either way - the only thing that will help them is if our reputable breeders offer their advice and experiences to encourage proper breeding practices. Explain how much hard work is involved, explain the consequences of poor breeding. No matter what anyone says or does, people who want to breed their dogs are going to do it anyway - we can help educate them, that is all. But THAT is SO important. It's the only chance they've got...

One of the things that upsets me the most is seeing potential breeders being beaten down, chewed up and spit out instead of being properly educated and encouraged to do things right. People so very against anyone breeding except the "professionals" - but the professionals won't be around forever and no one will be taught the honourable way to breed. 

I will be totally honest. There is only ONE breeder in all of Canada that I would personally get a dog from. THAT is sad. That explains why I keep seeing aggressive, reactive, unhealthy, nerve bag Shepherds EVERYWHERE. The GSD club I run is FULL of poorly bred dogs, which is a miserable reality. Canada is brutal for well bred GSDs. From my experience, anyway. From a pet perspective.

We need our reputable breeders to pass the torch to new people with potential and integrity. You want to discuss the future of our breed? Bettering our breed? I firmly believe the only way we can save the German Shepherd is for our extremely valuable, precious reputable breeders is to teach the next gen how to do it right. 

Thankfully we have great breeders contributing in this thread and that really, really helps. A sincere thanks to you guys, you know who you are.


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## Mrs.K

Wild Wolf said:


> I found an experienced breeder with an excellent reputation, I spent months talking with them on a variety of GSD related subjects, I looked closely at their breeding program (they put a lot of dogs in police, SAR, etc) and got to know many of the dogs they produced and watched their breeding stock work, videos, first hand stories, etc... investigated the pedigrees they bred... that is how I started to choose which breeder to go for. Proof is in the pudding, and all that.
> 
> I firmly believe many of the great breeders aren't helping potential new breeders learn how to do things right, or providing a good example and willingness to help and teach where they are able. What happens when this generation of breeders stop breeding? Who is going to continue the good breeding practices? No one, because our best breeders are keeping to themselves. People who come looking for knowledge, will breed either way - the only thing that will help them is if our reputable breeders offer their advice and experiences to encourage proper breeding practices. Explain how much hard work is involved, explain the consequences of poor breeding. No matter what anyone says or does, people who want to breed their dogs are going to do it anyway - we can help educate them, that is all. But THAT is SO important. It's the only chance they've got...
> 
> One of the things that upsets me the most is seeing potential breeders being beaten down, chewed up and spit out instead of being properly educated and encouraged to do things right. People so very against anyone breeding except the "professionals" - but the professionals won't be around forever and no one will be taught the honourable way to breed.
> 
> I will be totally honest. There is only ONE breeder in all of Canada that I would personally get a dog from. THAT is sad. That explains why I keep seeing aggressive, reactive, unhealthy, nerve bag Shepherds EVERYWHERE. The GSD club I run is FULL of poorly bred dogs, which is a miserable reality. Canada is brutal for well bred GSDs. From my experience, anyway. From a pet perspective.
> 
> We need our reputable breeders to pass the torch to new people with potential and integrity. You want to discuss the future of our breed? Bettering our breed? I firmly believe the only way we can save the German Shepherd is for our extremely valuable, precious reputable breeders is to teach the next gen how to do it right.
> 
> Thankfully we have great breeders contributing in this thread and that really, really helps. A sincere thanks to you guys, you know who you are.


Um, lot's of Koerbelbach Blood in Canada. Juergen Ritzi has more connections to Canada than anywhere else in the world, if I am not mistaken. 

Maurice Bernard might be a good place to start, perhaps?


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## Wolfgeist

Mrs.K said:


> Um, lot's of Koerbelbach Blood in Canada. Juergen Ritzi has more connections to Canada than anywhere else in the world, if I am not mistaken.
> 
> Maurice Bernard might be a good place to start, perhaps?


I know there is. Sorry, I meant the "pet dogs" in Ontario... all mostly backyard bred. Tried to clarify that by saying "from a pet perspective".


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## mycobraracr

Wild Wolf said:


> I found an experienced breeder with an excellent reputation, I spent months talking with them on a variety of GSD related subjects, I looked closely at their breeding program (they put a lot of dogs in police, SAR, etc) and got to know many of the dogs they produced and watched their breeding stock work, videos, first hand stories, etc... investigated the pedigrees they bred... that is how I started to choose which breeder to go for. Proof is in the pudding, and all that.
> 
> I firmly believe many of the great breeders aren't helping potential new breeders learn how to do things right, or providing a good example and willingness to help and teach where they are able. What happens when this generation of breeders stop breeding? Who is going to continue the good breeding practices? No one, because our best breeders are keeping to themselves. People who come looking for knowledge, will breed either way - the only thing that will help them is if our reputable breeders offer their advice and experiences to encourage proper breeding practices. Explain how much hard work is involved, explain the consequences of poor breeding. No matter what anyone says or does, people who want to breed their dogs are going to do it anyway - we can help educate them, that is all. But THAT is SO important. It's the only chance they've got...
> 
> One of the things that upsets me the most is seeing potential breeders being beaten down, chewed up and spit out instead of being properly educated and encouraged to do things right. People so very against anyone breeding except the "professionals" - but the professionals won't be around forever and no one will be taught the honourable way to breed.
> 
> I will be totally honest. There is only ONE breeder in all of Canada that I would personally get a dog from. THAT is sad. That explains why I keep seeing aggressive, reactive, unhealthy, nerve bag Shepherds EVERYWHERE. The GSD club I run is FULL of poorly bred dogs, which is a miserable reality. Canada is brutal for well bred GSDs. From my experience, anyway. From a pet perspective.
> 
> We need our reputable breeders to pass the torch to new people with potential and integrity. You want to discuss the future of our breed? Bettering our breed? I firmly believe the only way we can save the German Shepherd is for our extremely valuable, precious reputable breeders is to teach the next gen how to do it right.
> 
> Thankfully we have great breeders contributing in this thread and that really, really helps. A sincere thanks to you guys, you know who you are.


 
I completely agree with you. I expressed my interest in breeding a couple weeks ago and have great feedback from members of this forum. Mostly from those in this thread. I think all too often on this forum we see the people that don't want to put the time in though. I train and compete in three different venues. I work my tail off trying to learn all I can about what the breed should be. I am currently training with a breeder who is recommended on this forum all the time. I expressed my interest in breeding to them and asked if they could teach me a bit. They said no because they have been burned so many times. This is true, they have. Even though they said no, I have had hours of conversation with them just this week on breeding practices, certain dogs and so on. They have been breeding since the late 60's and have a wealth of knowledge. So for those of us younger generation that truly have the desire to learn and produce quality dogs, we have the resources to do so. We just have to prove it first and not try and throw together the first two dogs we get.


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## G-burg

This thread has become rather interesting.. some good information no doubt..

I guess one good thing about those of us that do train and title their dogs.. we are putting them on public display for all and anyone to see.. the good and the bad..


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## Wolfgeist

G-burg said:


> I guess one good thing about those of us that do train and title their dogs.. we are putting them on public display for all and anyone to see.. the good and the bad..


:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Tim Connell

cliffson1 said:


> A few of us are not trying to put down others, but discuss and educate and think, on the different challenges to breeding today that is causing our breed to no longer be looked at in the same light by working people. My opinion of the value of titles is to set the structural and temperament parameters for breeders to use to demonstrate to the working/service people what will best provide them with material for working services. The conformation of the ring should be able to seamlessly transition to work, the temperament of the performance title should seamlessly transition into work. (That's any work in utility realm)
> So breeders must always expect a spectrum of temperaments, colors, shades of pigments, varying sizes, varying drives, etc, because the breed is comprised of dogs that possess all these differences. Once you start going down path of uniform too big, uniform same color, uniform docile, uniform Malinois drive, uniform big heads, then you are creating something new and inconsistent with breed standard. When you do it for generations, then we have lost our way. Well you say Cliff, how can you determine if the way is lost.....good question. Remember the GS is a working dog by nature, and it's an utility dog by service, meaning the working can range from passive service....guide, to protective service.....to herding service.....to searching and detection service, all in working with man. So if as a breeder, if I got this right, then the dogs I am breeding should be capable of the transition into service if OPPORTUNITY and demand presents itself. Recognizing that society has evolved so that most breeders have dogs that go to families as they well should, STILL, as a breeder my ethics demands that I am breeding dogs that are fully capable of service work if the time and opportunity is right, and if that particular pup in the litter is right. My mentality as a breeder has and will always be that I strive to produce dogs that are saving people, leading people, protecting people, guiding people, finding people, etc.....there is no greater satisfaction as a breeder than one of your dogs doing these things. Because you know your work has transferred to the dog being and doing what it was made to do. All pups won't end up there, but our standard of breeding must be that our litters possess inside the wide range of utility function....otherwise we will start losing the utility. Well how do you know if the breed is losing its utility Cliff....again go back to the users of guide, and protect, and search, and detect, and herd, and ask them do they feel breeders are producing dogs that are capable of meeting the demand. Cause dogs are being used now more than ever....
> Lastly, this type of breeding is NOT inconsistent with providing dogs for families and pets! (Notice I don't call this show or sport breeding because these elements have often lost versatility in terms of adjusting well)
> Actually, breeding for work utility provides awesome family dogs also at I would say a higher percentage. Out of my last sixty some dogs I personally bred, I only had one dog returned, and this was because the lady became afflicted with MS and had lost her mobility, was working on her CDX and felt it was only fair to the dog to let me find a home the dog could still work...the dog never got past my club as a member took the dog and put multiple tiles on the dog and everything worked out.but my point is probably fifty of the sixty dogs went to families and even first time families....non returned, no shelters, rescues,etc that I know of...plenty of Xmas cards and referrals from people wanting dogs like their friends.
> So breeding for what these dogs should be is a mindset, that requires due diligence on the breeders part( hey but if you are not willing to learn and understand the utility of this breed how can you breed for it?), constant review and knowledge of uses of the dogs, and breeding for work is not inconsistent with breeding for families or pets.


Yes, breeding for the total, versatile dog that Capt. Von Stephanitz envisioned.


----------



## cliffson1

Someone asked about how some of us learned early in the game. I will speak for me with things that are doable for many.
1) passion for learning....I found breed people and sat up under them and listened and learned...it's hard to know and learn at the same time...lol
2) I went to every GS event in my area, whether it was obedience, show, talking to and developing relations with k9police officers, 
3) I found mentors in as many of these fields as I could....I went to visit Wynn Strickland and talked for hours, Barbara Amidon on numerous occaisons, Ernie Loeb, Bill Alexander, Wayne Green, Bill Leonard, Dan Dwyer , Connie Bechkart, and many more. I was in early twenties and these people were mostly within an hours drive....so I would go and talk and observe their dogs.
4) I started training at 18 years old, and joined my first SCH club at 24...with Bill Alexander....he was friends with all the SCH people in mid Atlantic and I would spend all day there training and listening to elders talk. In those days we had respect, I knew they knew more than I did, so I wasn't wasting my time telling them my limited experiences when they had info about many many aspects. I would be there every Sat from 10am to 8 or 9 pm. I inhaled knowledge. The first dog I got was a BYB bred dog, female, who my family of sisters and brothers tell me was still the best dog I ever had...I then got a nice show line dog, before I went into service and she was very skittish even then. Still, I was infatuated with these pretty substantial dogs, so while in the service in Ga. I got two more SL females, one out of Covy Tucker lines that was a little sounder, the other out of waldesruh/yoncallas Mike lines....she could move but was a spook. I was going to shows every week with the breeder and constantly seeing many other dogs in this venue....finally I couldn't take it. So I gave the two girls back to breeder(one had pts) and I imported a German dog from a Cap'n that had married a German girl and her uncle was Otto Mueller the German Judge. This dog embodied everything I always write about and he was great looking bi-color...plus I could go anywhere and train with him because he could do it all. Consequently, I started studying the German dogs with same passion, imported some more and bred my first litter in 1977. Did I make mistakes ?...yes...one being that the beauty of this breed has to be on the inside and not the outside....but I went through a period trying my best to get the pretty dogs to work like my later dogs cause I liked the prettiness. Trust me....been there done that. But it wasn't possible and I got tired of lying to myself and making excuses for my dogs...so I moved on because I realized then to fully know this breed for breeding purposes, I had to be involved in the training as well as the pedigree and genetics. And I was limited in where and what I could train with the unsound dogs....so I vowed to never get caught up in that malaise again.....that's my start, minus the training I did in the military for three years.


----------



## Wolfgeist

cliffson1 said:


> Someone asked about how some of us learned early in the game. I will speak for me with things that are doable for many.
> 1) passion for learning....I found breed people and sat up under them and listened and learned...it's hard to know and learn at the same time...lol
> 2) I went to every GS event in my area, whether it was obedience, show, talking to and developing relations with k9police officers,
> 3) I found mentors in as many of these fields as I could....I went to visit Wynn Strickland and talked for hours, Barbara Amidon on numerous occaisons, Ernie Loeb, Bill Alexander, Wayne Green, Bill Leonard, Dan Dwyer , Connie Bechkart, and many more. I was in early twenties and these people were mostly within an hours drive....so I would go and talk and observe their dogs.
> 4) I started training at 18 years old, and joined my first SCH club at 24...with Bill Alexander....he was friends with all the SCH people in mid Atlantic and I would spend all day there training and listening to elders talk. In those days we had respect, I knew they knew more than I did, so I wasn't wasting my time telling them my limited experiences when they had info about many many aspects. I would be there every Sat from 10am to 8 or 9 pm. I inhaled knowledge. The first dog I got was a BYB bred dog, female, who my family of sisters and brothers tell me was still the best dog I ever had...I then got a nice show line dog, before I went into service and she was very skittish even then. Still, I was infatuated with these pretty substantial dogs, so while in the service in Ga. I got two more SL females, one out of Covy Tucker lines that was a little sounder, the other out of waldesruh/yoncallas Mike lines....she could move but was a spook. I was going to shows every week with the breeder and constantly seeing many other dogs in this venue....finally I couldn't take it. So I gave the two girls back to breeder(one had pts) and I imported a German dog from a Cap'n that had married a German girl and her uncle was Otto Mueller the German Judge. This dog embodied everything I always write about and he was great looking bi-color...plus I could go anywhere and train with him because he could do it all. Consequently, I started studying the German dogs with same passion, imported some more and bred my first litter in 1977. Did I make mistakes ?...yes...one being that the beauty of this breed has to be on the inside and not the outside....but I went through a period trying my best to get the pretty dogs to work like my later dogs cause I liked the prettiness. Trust me....been there done that. But it wasn't possible and I got tired of lying to myself and making excuses for my dogs...so I moved on because I realized then to fully know this breed for breeding purposes, I had to be involved in the training as well as the pedigree and genetics. And I was limited in where and what I could train with the unsound dogs....so I vowed to never get caught up in that malaise again.....that's my start, minus the training I did in the military for three years.


Thank you so much for sharing this.


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## BritneyP

G-burg said:


> I guess one good thing about those of us that do train and title their dogs.. we are putting them on public display for all and anyone to see.. the good and the bad..


:thumbup::thumbup:

Couldn't agree more!


----------



## Catu

G-burg said:


> I guess one good thing about those of us that do train and title their dogs.. we are putting them on public display for all and anyone to see.. the good and the bad..


And here it lays the biggest importance of titles for me. There are some very few people I'd buy from untitled parents (and Cliff if one of them :smirk because I trust their knowledge and criteria, but for the others I need to see the dog, either through my own eyes, through the eyes of breeders and trainers I respect or in the last case... at least there may be a YouTube video somewhere, but the dogs are out there, doing something for people to rip apart their performance.

My current dog I chose him because at the time I knew of only two females I had seen working myself that I liked enough to want a pup from. I asked the breeder for a pup a year before that female has any title on her because I had seen her work on seminars, and she still has only a IPO-A. There is this other breeder in Chile who continuously imports titled SchH-3s females from Belgium, yet no one has seen those female outside a kennel. Maybe in the future those females will speak about themselves through their progeny, but right now I need more than the title to want a pup from them.


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> Someone asked about how some of us learned early in the game. I will speak for me with things that are doable for many.
> *1) passion for learning....I found breed people and sat up under them and listened and learned...it's hard to know and learn at the same time...lol*
> 2) I went to every GS event in my area, whether it was obedience, show, talking to and developing relations with k9police officers,
> 3) I found mentors in as many of these fields as I could....I went to visit Wynn Strickland and talked for hours, Barbara Amidon on numerous occaisons, Ernie Loeb, Bill Alexander, Wayne Green, Bill Leonard, Dan Dwyer , Connie Bechkart, and many more. I was in early twenties and these people were mostly within an hours drive....so I would go and talk and observe their dogs.
> 4) I started training at 18 years old, and joined my first SCH club at 24...with Bill Alexander....he was friends with all the SCH people in mid Atlantic and I would spend all day there training and listening to elders talk. In those days we had respect, I knew they knew more than I did, so I wasn't wasting my time telling them my limited experiences when they had info about many many aspects. I would be there every Sat from 10am to 8 or 9 pm. I inhaled knowledge. The first dog I got was a BYB bred dog, female, who my family of sisters and brothers tell me was still the best dog I ever had...I then got a nice show line dog, before I went into service and she was very skittish even then. Still, I was infatuated with these pretty substantial dogs, so while in the service in Ga. I got two more SL females, one out of Covy Tucker lines that was a little sounder, the other out of waldesruh/yoncallas Mike lines....she could move but was a spook. I was going to shows every week with the breeder and constantly seeing many other dogs in this venue....finally I couldn't take it. So I gave the two girls back to breeder(one had pts) and I imported a German dog from a Cap'n that had married a German girl and her uncle was Otto Mueller the German Judge. This dog embodied everything I always write about and he was great looking bi-color...plus I could go anywhere and train with him because he could do it all. Consequently, I started studying the German dogs with same passion, imported some more and bred my first litter in 1977. Did I make mistakes ?...yes...one being that the beauty of this breed has to be on the inside and not the outside....but I went through a period trying my best to get the pretty dogs to work like my later dogs cause I liked the prettiness. Trust me....been there done that. But it wasn't possible and I got tired of lying to myself and making excuses for my dogs...so I moved on because I realized then to fully know this breed for breeding purposes, I had to be involved in the training as well as the pedigree and genetics. And I was limited in where and what I could train with the unsound dogs....so I vowed to never get caught up in that malaise again.....that's my start, minus the training I did in the military for three years.



I had no choice. I had to sit there and listen whether I wanted or not and believe me, a lot of times I had "better" things to do than listening or watching. 

Now, I'm happy when I can listen to my father. I love the old stories he has to tell. I know he has not been following the sport for the past years though, however, he knows 3-9th (if not older) generation dogs, handled many of the big names himself or had them on the sleeve. I've listened ever since I was able to listen and I am still listening. I've also watched. A lot of the watching I cannot remember but I know what to stay away from. It's almost instinctively. 

I can't explain it, but I look at a dog from a different perspective. Even when I'm looking for a pet dog, I'm looking for certain traits in the dog. I also don't know how I handle or "cure" them. I'm not a dog whisperer. I've been around dogs all my life and been around some of the greatest dogs in history. 

They have all had those traits that Carmen and Cliff are talking about. We've had dogs that a lot of adults wouldn't have touched because they were too scared but us kids, never had an issue playing with those dogs. 

I handle dogs differently and I'll probably never be a competition handler and title a dog, merely because of resources. If I am thinking about a possible match, even if it is just because I'm curious I talk it through with my Dad. 

He takes both my dogs very serious and I know the match is perfect. He also said that it won't look good to have a litter out of untitled dogs but this is not about titled dogs, this is about preserving a blood line and in this case, genetics will trump the titles!


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## cliffson1

I think a lot of people(non breeders), and breeders don't realize that there was a different type of German Shepherd in the past then is seen today. Now by that I mean the specialization of the breed by all the different camps( show, sport, BYB, Czech, DDR , Alsatian,) altered the landscape of the breed. As time has moved onward, breeders have become experts in their field of specialty, BUT they have also bred their dogs to the strong points of the specialty. So elements like big heads, extreme sidegait, black sables, black and red, massive bone, have become the focus of breeders (and now extreme prey drive), and as generation after generation of this has taken place, then these traits become entrench at a loss of other traits. The breed was much more middle of the road in type and genetics back then, giving a wider diversity of types structures and temperaments within a litter. The breed today are much more specialized, but more importantly the breeders of these special types are very knowledgable about their type and pretty much refuse to go outside their type. So you have a DDR breeder for example( I use DDR because if I use other examples that better show the breeders of these types get so defensive...smh), who maybe needs more drive or angulation in the dogs they have been breeding, what they do is find a dog within the DDR population with more drive or angulation to bring in the needed element. Well, this has a limited effect because you are still breeding the same specialized genetics of the DDR type. So the improvement is neglible and certainly not continuing in generations cause you will take the result to another DDR dog. This principle holds true for all the specialty groups. That's why for thirty years some groups have tried to improve temperament with this formula and it never got better...now a few are breeding outside their specialty for the improvement. ( it took thirty years to figure this out...smh)
Years ago before the specialties mindset, you could breed two German shepherds and get more of a true utility litter like what we talk about so often. There are genetic and breeding reasons why the dogs are different, not because old people are romanticizing the past as some who don't know often intimate.
So yes the dogs were somewhat different then, more conducive to utility, in litters and capabilities on average, and I have said nothing negative about the specialty breeders, but specialty breeding in a breed created out of variety and for utility is going to come with a price....and that price is a lack or loss of key components that make the breed a great all around dog!


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## Whiteshepherds

Would the dogs being produced for LE or guide dogs be considered specialty groups? This is the part about the GSD that always trips me up because the dogs seem so different but both are considered correct for the breed.


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## carmspack

" This is the part about the GSD that always trips me up because the dogs seem so different but both are considered correct for the breed."

Not a good one ! A correct GSD should be able to negotiate stimulating environments , work with focus in close proximity to crowds , and perform whatever task assigned . When you mess around and remove portions of "standard" character , that is when you run into problems.
Doesn't matter how good the beams are if the foundation is faulty. 
I have had graduate guide dogs , plus one slated for brood , and one male who grew a little large for the average user was used for public relations . He was trained to certify so that he could demonstrate all the requirements necessary. The lines I use that go into PD still come from these genetics.


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## cliffson1

I really know of no top breeders that breed for LE....instead I know top breeders that breed for all around utility dog of which some in litter may go into LE and some maybe used for guide, just like Carmen describes.


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> I really know of no top breeders that breed for LE....instead I know top breeders that breed for all around utility dog of which some in litter may go into LE and some maybe used for guide, just like Carmen describes.


I don't know why but I thought some breeders only produced dogs for LE, thanks for clearing that up.


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## wolfstraum

Sorry to come to this party so late! I have wanted to participate in this thread but could not get to it this week with work, doctor appointments, dogs, car problems and just compromised attention span due to being busy!

The thread starts out with talking about the variety of needs the breed encompasses...from developement of a herding breed to the present as a show and sport dog....there is such a wide range of possibilities but yet there is a bottleneck of type - show line, work line, pet lack of lines, and ASL and WGDs 

As we know - so many breeders specialize in one of these types. Everyone pays lip service to this idea that they breed to "improve the breed" HUH??? THINK about that phrase! So many breeders have no idea of what they have, what is behind it and what is needed... My philosophy is that I breed to maintain and protect the integrity of the breed. Each and every one of us has a mental picture of the look, character and temperament that is the GSD. We should, as breeders, try to meet that ideal, to protect the character, temperament and appearance of that ideal dog. I breed to protect and maintain the integrity of the breed.

The problem comes in by those who specialize - to breed with priorities skewed to one use or sport....the show breeders for "side gait" or color, the working line breeders for "extreme drive"....

You have to breed for BALANCE. For functional structure (which includes good joints), for stable nerves and temperament, and for character which allows the dog to excel in whatever venue the owner has an interest.

Then you have the utilitarian dog. The dog who can do sport, herding, SAR, LE, guide dog work, service work, flyball, dock diving, agility or obedience. The dog who can be a member of the family yet do any one or better yet, more than one of these things. 

Yes, I breed - not alot, and not using the 'dog of the moment' or the big name winner....unless I think he will bring what I want to the table. Like a few others, my dogs are out there (or have done) doing herding (both AKC and HGH styles) agility, flyball, obedience, rally, IPO, SAR, patrol and narcotics detection. Many do more than one thing. But every single pup I have raised has been placed primarily as a companion dog first and foremost. The most important quality that a dog serves is that of a companion IMO. And the companion dog should absolutely stable and confident. Too many breeders say their litters have only one or two "show/working quality pups" - the rest are deemed "pet quality" due to a lack of drive or a problem in temperament....and so many dogs are sold off as pets to people who are not able to deal with them....as evidenced by so so many threads on this board!

The idea of breeders not "helping" novice or newbies to breed!!!! This astounds me! I started breeding with the (unexpected) acquisition of a pregnant imported titled KKL1 female. My second female was bred after her title and koer. I worked and titled my first 2 dogs from puppies to Sch3, KKL. Then another female and a couple of my homebreds to titles and koers. I not only spent years training and titling these dogs, but spent hundreds of hours watching training and learning to understand what I saw in training - my dogs and many many other dogs - sport dogs and LE dogs. I studied the pedigrees of every dog I saw working if I could get their names...I still do this. I learned that training and conditioning can trump genetics so very often. And I learned so much from talking to people who had been around a lot longer - both here and a few in Europe. 

But someone buys a dog, likes it and wants to breed it. They want short cuts, they want spoon fed knowledge that I took years to acquire, understanding that took hundreds of hours to develop. It is not that I don't want to "help" them....but they need to DO something, to LEARN what the words in the books MEAN. They need to develop an understanding of the ideals of the breed and what they have on the end of their leash - not just have someone tell them what to do, throw money at someone with a male and viola' they are a breeder....

I am more than willing to help anyone who asks - I have spent hours and hours with complete strangers on the phone talking about their females and their goals in breeding....even ones who don't title their dogs. Often I don't think they have any business breeding - but I try to give them enough assistance in understanding what the breed should be, what the market for puppies and the responsiblilties of the breeder for those puppies is that they may think better of jumping into breeding.

Lee


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## Jack's Dad

wolfstraum said:


> Sorry to come to this party so late! I have wanted to participate in this thread but could not get to it this week with work, doctor appointments, dogs, car problems and just compromised attention span due to being busy!
> 
> The thread starts out with talking about the variety of needs the breed encompasses...from developement of a herding breed to the present as a show and sport dog....there is such a wide range of possibilities but yet there is a bottleneck of type - show line, work line, pet lack of lines, and ASL and WGDs
> 
> As we know - so many breeders specialize in one of these types. Everyone pays lip service to this idea that they breed to "improve the breed" HUH??? THINK about that phrase! So many breeders have no idea of what they have, what is behind it and what is needed... My philosophy is that I breed to maintain and protect the integrity of the breed. Each and every one of us has a mental picture of the look, character and temperament that is the GSD. We should, as breeders, try to meet that ideal, to protect the character, temperament and appearance of that ideal dog. I breed to protect and maintain the integrity of the breed.
> 
> The problem comes in by those who specialize - to breed with priorities skewed to one use or sport....the show breeders for "side gait" or color, the working line breeders for "extreme drive"....
> 
> You have to breed for BALANCE. For functional structure (which includes good joints), for stable nerves and temperament, and for character which allows the dog to excel in whatever venue the owner has an interest.
> 
> Then you have the utilitarian dog. The dog who can do sport, herding, SAR, LE, guide dog work, service work, flyball, dock diving, agility or obedience. The dog who can be a member of the family yet do any one or better yet, more than one of these things.
> 
> Yes, I breed - not alot, and not using the 'dog of the moment' or the big name winner....unless I think he will bring what I want to the table. Like a few others, my dogs are out there (or have done) doing herding (both AKC and HGH styles) agility, flyball, obedience, rally, IPO, SAR, patrol and narcotics detection. Many do more than one thing. But every single pup I have raised has been placed primarily as a companion dog first and foremost. The most important quality that a dog serves is that of a companion IMO. And the companion dog should absolutely stable and confident. Too many breeders say their litters have only one or two "show/working quality pups" - the rest are deemed "pet quality" due to a lack of drive or a problem in temperament....and so many dogs are sold off as pets to people who are not able to deal with them....as evidenced by so so many threads on this board!
> 
> The idea of breeders not "helping" novice or newbies to breed!!!! This astounds me! I started breeding with the (unexpected) acquisition of a pregnant imported titled KKL1 female. My second female was bred after her title and koer. I worked and titled my first 2 dogs from puppies to Sch3, KKL. Then another female and a couple of my homebreds to titles and koers. I not only spent years training and titling these dogs, but spent hundreds of hours watching training and learning to understand what I saw in training - my dogs and many many other dogs - sport dogs and LE dogs. I studied the pedigrees of every dog I saw working if I could get their names...I still do this. I learned that training and conditioning can trump genetics so very often. And I learned so much from talking to people who had been around a lot longer - both here and a few in Europe.
> 
> But someone buys a dog, likes it and wants to breed it. They want short cuts, they want spoon fed knowledge that I took years to acquire, understanding that took hundreds of hours to develop. It is not that I don't want to "help" them....but they need to DO something, to LEARN what the words in the books MEAN. They need to develop an understanding of the ideals of the breed and what they have on the end of their leash - not just have someone tell them what to do, throw money at someone with a male and viola' they are a breeder....
> 
> I am more than willing to help anyone who asks - I have spent hours and hours with complete strangers on the phone talking about their females and their goals in breeding....even ones who don't title their dogs. Often I don't think they have any business breeding - but I try to give them enough assistance in understanding what the breed should be, what the market for puppies and the responsiblilties of the breeder for those puppies is that they may think better of jumping into breeding.
> 
> Lee


One of the best posts ever read since I've been on here.:thumbup:


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## carmspack

oh yes this thread still has life in it.

Working dogs need to be self reliant and have a sense of responsibility. When the herding dog or the search dog or the detection dog is sent out with a duty to perform it has to perform without someone hovering over it either doing half the work themselves or encouraging the dog . 
It takes years of experience getting a feel for the pups which will have this characteristic . Easier once you have it embedded into a line by design -- then it becomes more or less the norm. You do find though that these qualities are best preserved when the breeding partner comes from working stock requiring the same . Reading a study written by an associate professor . She has arrived in Russia to work with Belyaev's assistant who continues his project to discover genetic tameness using silver fox . There is one phrase the author uses in describing Belyaev's and that is "eliminating the inefficiencies of chance" . A good breeding program will have a higher percentage of dogs able to be successful at whatever the goal is -- higher still with each generation.

That is something for the newbie wanting to "improve" the breed to think about. You have to start with what and where you want to end up. You can not reinvent the wheel. Belyaev did not start his experiment with wild foxes. He began with foxes that had already had dozens of generations of being "farm-raised" with human contact . 

The newbie with good intentions needs to get good experience , long before breeding is even given a thought.
ms Wolfstraum said "The idea of breeders not "helping" novice or newbies to breed!!!!" yeah I've had calls where people want to buy a female , then they want you to choose a suitable male, then they want you to set up the program --- just add water , instant breeder . I'm not going to help you breed , not in that way, but I will crawl through a mile of poo to help you learn and understand and see the dog at work so that you become that self reliant, passionate , responsible breeder , just like you want your dog to be .

That is another thing . The working dog , not having titles , often slips away into anonymity . I have my eye on a future breeding . The owner of the very good stud is experienced in putting out and working "working dogs" -- but openly admits that he is anxious to get his stud to be used by those with sport titles and selling to the sport crowd because the titles and publicity will bring attention and stud services to his dog ! 

don't ask , won't tell --


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## Merciel

carmspack said:


> That is another thing . The working dog , not having titles , often slips away into anonymity . I have my eye on a future breeding . The owner of the very good stud is experienced in putting out and working "working dogs" -- but openly admits that he is anxious to get his stud to be used by those with sport titles and selling to the sport crowd because the titles and publicity will bring attention and stud services to his dog !


This sort of ties into something I've been thinking about lately. I don't really have a settled position that I can articulate yet, but I do want to ask: Is that a bad thing? Presumably it'll get his kennel name out there and gain greater recognition for a good dog who produces good traits in his offspring -- which is good, right?

Or is it maybe not so good?

I don't know, I'm honestly asking.


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