# Physical Play with dogs.. Getting Primal with dogs.



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

" I had this theory about interactions between dogs very early in my K−9 training career. As the article here states, I took a chair and a video camera to the zoo and videotaped hours of the interaction between wild canids, mostly wolves and coyotes. Rather than playing with a ball or a tug toy as humans mostly think of playing with their dogs, I saw that dogs at play with each other, were quite physical. "They run, they bump shoulders, they throw hips into one another." When I started interacting with my own dog and those that I trained like this, the dynamic changed dramatically. Before that, I'd been trained, as was in vogue then, to dominate my dog with physical corrections, Alpha Rolls, and physical force. Suddenly I was getting dramatically better results, and I never looked back."

LouCastle

*Discuss*


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

My pups (and every dog I've ever had) love to wrestle with me, be 'pushed', 'bumped' and 'manhandled' (in love and play of course) and it has always seemed to make their bond with me stronger.... They can start getting really rough, so boundaries have to be established, but after that, it is fun (a good workout, lol) and it seems to edify both parties.... just my experiences


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> My pups (and every dog I've ever had) love to wrestle with me, be 'pushed', 'bumped' and 'manhandled' (in love and play of course) and it has always seemed to make their bond with me stronger.... They can start getting really rough, so boundaries have to be established, but after that, it is fun (a good workout, lol) and it seems to edify both parties.... just my experiences


I agree so much  I have always done this with my dog...

Its a form of play, and deeper bond, but it also establishes a pack hierarchy i think...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Makes good sense to me....I try and engage my dogs at their level...don't really care if I get ridiculed for it either. 

SuperG


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

The inherent problem with an alpha roll is that it is structured...

It is something people do or did... That is like an 'intervention'...

I can alpha roll my dogs if I want to anytime... but that is because i have wrestled and played with them often.... Its a game for them... That I always win, in the end... I show I am the alpha... but they always enjoy the play...

A alpha roll though is a structured intervention... They may not be used to that type of contact... Some trainers or people might try it with a new dog... or a dog they want to 'fix' a behaviour... maybe a dog that they adopted, or in training...
The problem is this can be dangerous... Its like a challenge to the dog...

Were as play and roughing it out with your dog, is more natural... The bond forms over time... The structure is 'natural'...

Hopefully LouCastle will make a guest appearance and give us some more insight on the way he uses it, and what he means by this statement


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

have said many times that people treat pups as fragile , with kid gloves , coddled as babies .

actually there is an article in the last issue of Dogs Naturally magazine which talks about something very similar in socializing young dogs .

Part of my pup's experience is a little rough handling , which is not at all anything to do with corrections, just very matter of fact , which becomes "normal" to them so nothing to be concerned with .


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Never done the alpha roll to any of the dogs I have had....

I don't know if this is the same...but over a period of time, when the pup got to a certain age and would willingly roll over on it's side and expose the soft of it's belly by lifting a hind leg...and allow me to massage their belly or at least not show any resistance to my hand being there ...I took this posture/behavior as one of "trust" or a sign of rank in some sense. I could be completely incorrect....perhaps the dogs just enjoyed the physical contact???

Maybe someone knowledgeable regarding "body english" exhibited by a dog knows what this physical gesture indicates.


SuperG


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

the last couple days its been cold outside and i try to wear out my 9 months old indoor so i just wear thick jacket and gloves to protect me from his claw and teeth. we would wrestle until i give up lol cause he has unlimited source of energy... 9 months vs 34 years old.
Now he gets really2x close to me again like when he was 3 months old... just stick like a glue.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I will lend you my 17 yr old son, I've said from day one hum and my dog are littermates. Neither of them runs out of energy for this kind of play.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I thought that was part of the allure of a GSD....the rough housing and wrasslin". It does take a bit of patience and training as even a juvenile GSD has the tools to bring it on at a level which would overwhelm most humans.
Over a short period of time they become so adept at using their teeth and jaws during play sessions. They are able to use their incisors to "gingerly" grasp hold of loose sleeves and pants legs without putting pressure on the unexposed flesh....I suppose on a rare occasion they get a bit of flesh under the sleeves...but it is unintentional.

I have a sweatshirt or two with the arms stretched out about an extra foot or so and in tatters as testimony to our play sessions.

So much fun and no admission charged.


SuperG


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

I love wrestling with Fiona. We usually do it on my bed, but I have gotten down on her bed too.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Saphire said:


> I will lend you my 17 yr old son, I've said from day one hum and my dog are littermates. Neither of them runs out of energy for this kind of play.


Haha deal


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I thought that was part of the allure of a GSD....the rough housing and wrasslin". It does take a bit of patience and training as even a juvenile GSD has the tools to bring it on at a level which would overwhelm most humans.
> Over a short period of time they become so adept at using their teeth and jaws during play sessions. They are able to use their incisors to "gingerly" grasp hold of loose sleeves and pants legs without putting pressure on the unexposed flesh....I suppose on a rare occasion they get a bit of flesh under the sleeves...but it is unintentional.
> 
> I have a sweatshirt or two with the arms stretched out about an extra foot or so and in tatters as testimony to our play sessions.
> ...



Haha Ive been wrestling for years (against humans). My dogs can never overwhelm me, unless i let him..

Its amazing how gentle they can be when they bite in play... Sure it can hurt a bit.. But if you are used to it its not a biggy... 

We often play a game where he tries to bite my arm, whilst i try pinch the back of his neck or tap his nose...

I can engage and start play with the dog... And get him riled up to play... Its amazing tho, he never does this if I don't initiate... (you don't want a dog to randomly bite your arm). 

He really enjoys it..


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lykoz said:


> Haha Ive been wrestling for years (against humans). My dogs can never overwhelm me, unless i let him..
> 
> Its amazing how gentle they can be when they bite in play... Sure it can hurt a bit.. But if you are used to it its not a biggy...
> 
> ...


Yes, they are quick studies on the "rules of engagement" when it comes to play fighting.

My comment regarding " even a juvenile GSD has the tools to bring it on at a level which would overwhelm most humans." was more aimed at the notion...if a GSD brought on it's full unbridled ferocity and bite pressures...NO holds barred...no playing involved...The GSD has the tools to overwhelm most humans...which is why it is important to have that wonderful communication between the 2 wrasslers...this is play. 

I recall seeing a GSD in a fight with another large breed dog and both were past the red zone...unfortunately the guy that stepped in to try and stop his dog got hit so fast and so viciously that it was over before it happened...it blew me away. It really impressed upon me, when GSDs and other certain breeds choose to unleash all their might and tools...they are incredibly formidable. I'm just thrilled they know how to play fight...LOL.


SuperG


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

I have a busted up track suit(motorcycle leathers) that I put on and go crazy with my dogs. It allows them to ramp up the bite pressures and really have a good time. When they see me pull it out of the closet they start to wrestle each other and when I'm done getting it put on they attack together. It's more fun than you'd think. Lots of growling and snarling, laughing and snorting. 

I try and get them on their backs, they try and pull me to the floor. It gets intense yet always ends in a cuddle pile with all of us gasping for air.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Yes, they are quick studies on the "rules of engagement" when it comes to play fighting.
> 
> My comment regarding " even a juvenile GSD has the tools to bring it on at a level which would overwhelm most humans." was more aimed at the notion...if a GSD brought on it's full unbridled ferocity and bite pressures...NO holds barred...no playing involved...The GSD has the tools to overwhelm most humans...which is why it is important to have that wonderful communication between the 2 wrasslers...this is play.
> 
> ...



Haha  Ive never incurred the full wrath of a GSD... My dogs have never ever wanted to actually hurt me..

As puppies maybe they got a bit more riled up... But when they used to turn it on... So did I .. They learnt to play nice from a young age... I recall my one pup used to bite too hard.. So I started bitting back on his neck... that taught him not to make me bleed...

But I understand what you mean...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lykoz said:


> Haha  Ive never incurred the full wrath of a GSD... My dogs have never ever wanted to actually hurt me..
> 
> As puppies maybe they got a bit more riled up... But when they used to turn it on... So did I .. They learnt to play nice from a young age... I recall my one pup used to bite too hard.. So I started bitting back on his neck... that taught him not to make me bleed...
> 
> But I understand what you mean...



I have found that type of "dog speak" to work as well.......which brings us right back to the topic of this thread..." Getting Primal with dogs".

Quick question....on a scale of 1 -10...10 being the best...how would you rate the quality of the coexistence between you and your dogs overall ?

SuperG


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I have found that type of "dog speak" to work as well.......which brings us right back to the topic of this thread..." Getting Primal with dogs".
> 
> Quick question....on a scale of 1 -10...10 being the best...how would you rate the quality of the coexistence between you and your dogs overall ?
> 
> SuperG


1-10 coexistence? thats a very hard rating... very subjective.. I cant answer that.

I have a lot of training to do..
I am still a novice in official training..

Distractions are still an issue for my current dogs... Cats, etc. environment when I walk my dog.. My previous GSD who passed away... who was very aggressive towards other dogs (was attacked as a puppy at group training, and through probably my mistake, never took him back)... As he got older could heel next to me without leash, and not engage other dogs, cats or distractions on my command.. I guess this improves with age too..

But I have found that my current dogs are very compliant in the house... I talk and they listen... 
Sit there... go in to the house.. out the house... on, off couch... They respond immediately... 
One thing they definitely understand is who I am with regards to pack structure...
And most of this is due to this primal relationship we have i believe.. I have always believed I could relate to them on their level... 
I have never used Prongs or Ecollars.. (not because i disagree with it, but because im still not confortable I have all the information I need) Although I believe these devices are important tools... I also believe they need to be used 100% correctly in order not to be abusive.

The fact that my dogs are unmanageable when I am not there to the cleaning ladies who come in to the house. Says that partly that they have a lot of training to do still, but it also says that they don't respect them as higher pack members (i believe).. They don't listen to them at all... They blatantly ignore them, jump on them etc... As soon as I step in the room and tell them what to do they listen...

The fact of the matter is I have a lot to learn,.. And a lot of time doing more conventional methods: marker training... building engagement... A lot of things I wasnt aware in the correct application of with my previous dogs, they still got it right...
I can tell you the 'primal' philosophy played a huge roll with me as a novice with no real education in dog training... It is the one thing I always believed in... Simply out of common sence... I mean dogs cant talk... We always try get them to speak human... but how many attempts do we really make to speak their language too?
I think this is often a big piece of a missing puzzle in official dog training..

A lot of the all positive guys have a field day when ceasar milan does that little back heal tap on a dog as a correction... They speak of dog abuse... breaking ribs etc (ribs are not made of glass)... I can tell you when i engage with my dogs they get more roughed up than that, as do i do... They enjoy it... I enjoy it too..


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Lykoz I think it is interesting how many people admitted to rough-housing with their dogs. My hubby says that one of the reasons he wanted a big strong German Shepherd is so that he could play rough with him. And as the Mama of the house I remind him that it is respect first, wrestling after. The dog needs to know to stop when we let him know it is getting too rowdy.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Saphire said:


> I will lend you my 17 yr old son, I've said from day one hum and my dog are littermates. Neither of them runs out of energy for this kind of play.


Send him over.

There is no way I can do this with Hans.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lykoz,

Thanks for the detailed response....I share much of what you posted.

I guess a dog is always a work in progress....no different than humans ( if we choose ).

I think what I have learned over the years with 3 GSDs is the process never stops...only if one becomes complacent...I guess it is up to the human to take the lead and proceed into new territory with their dogs.

I agree with your thoughts regarding the "all positive guys"....sure, the greater part of my training methods are "positive" but there are those situations where something other than positive is required. I know the "all positive guys" would claim that I need to take a different "positive" route and all that.....but to each their own...and I am all about results and the pursuit of a coexistence which is second to none. I have no doubts the dog has the ability...it's just that I, the human..needs to find the best way to communicate with my dog to build this coexistence....and I find this mentality best for my mindset...because it puts the onus on me not the dog.

SuperG


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Lykoz,
> 
> Thanks for the detailed response....I share much of what you posted.
> 
> ...


You know I have boxed and done various martial arts for a long time...

The thing you learn there, when you actively spar and hit your training partners is that its all about what you are trying to achieve together...
If A new guys walks in the gym, and you smash his face in... You learn nothing... He learns nothing, and he doesn't come back...
You drop the intensity really slow, you make the new guy feel confortable... He might be nervous and he hits you a bit harder... Again you dont smash him... You just tell him to tone it down... You synergistically find a pace that both are comfortable, fun, condusive to learning...
This is a feeling, you simply know from training with the right philosophy...

Now you get matched up to spar somebody experienced who has done it for years... Maybe you keep it light still so you can learn... You might both be comfortable to pick it up a bit... 

Then their is competitive sparring, to prepare for a competition... again this is hard sparring... A new individual would not be able to survive this... He would hold back the training.. and he shouldn't even be there... However even here.. You back off a bit when you overwhelm your opponent... You are not in actual competition.. You are not trying to K.O. anybody, or hurt them... You are keeping a respectable level...

However most people who train these days are not competitve fighters... They are there just for the fun... To be kids.. Get fit, learn and have fun whilst doing it!

I have babbled a while... But this is a hard concept to understand for most people...

Its a feeling you get.. When you box or wrestle... You can feel when your training partners are uncomfortable or not enjoying it...

Same goes with dogs... You need to be sensitive to how they are feeling... How they are responding... Are they afraid to have fun with you? Do they Run away or get into a panick simply when you hug them? The point is its a fine line between dominating a dog.. And developing its confidence... Its a fine line between showing your the alpha and making your dog fear you...

Its a fine line from the dog having the time of his life, to entering survival mode...

Its a feeling where you cant think of you and your dog as separate... But rather as one... Dogs are instinctual animals, they are in the now. we develop instinctually as humans (i Believe) through sporting interaction, especially between two individuals... Wrestling/boxing are such good examples, because its essentially a dance between two synergistic people, trying to complete completely opposite puzzles so to speak.... However the actions of one can severely make the other person uncomfortable, or break him...

This is an important message to roughing out with your dog...
A dog not used to this can severely act out or even bite...

A dog used to this, who actually enjoys it on the other hand... can be roughed up more and have SUCH a good time... 

Paris Hiltons little pouch in her bag would probably have a heart attack...
At the end of the day.. some dogs just need little touching games.. others you can engage more with.. Each dog is different... And intensity is also dependent on experience...

Its also important to be a clear: Ok No more play now.. Like a command or signal that the game is over... So they dont think its okay to engage with you however they like...

PS. What I am writting has nothing to do with what Lou believes in his initial statement.. This is my own experience. Hopefully as a professional dog trainer he can give us more insight on what it is he exactly means later on.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

car2ner said:


> Lykoz I think it is interesting how many people admitted to rough-housing with their dogs. My hubby says that one of the reasons he wanted a big strong German Shepherd is so that he could play rough with him. And as the Mama of the house I remind him that it is respect first, wrestling after. The dog needs to know to stop when we let him know it is getting too rowdy.


Yep  talked about that a bit in my other post to SuperG.

The dog knowing that this is unacceptable behaviour is vital.

I always initiate the play... Get him excited and if he wants to have fun.. We have fun... 

However there has to be a stop/free/end of play command/signal..

My dog cant just come whilst im on the couch watching a movie and start bitting my arm wanting to play...

What you said here is vitally important.

Ill admit I have a bit of a problem with this, with regard to the cleaning ladies that come inside to the house sometimes.. i.e. they enter the premesis themselves without me letting them in... Rest of family they show respect... But to the cleaning ladies, if I am not there, or they come from outside, whilst I am in the house, they jump on them, sometimes even bite at their scarf or arm.. Etc... (playfully- Not attacking them) However it can be very stressful for the girls.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

This quotation (used with permission by Lykoz) is from THIS ARTICLE on establishing dominance. Today I'd change the title to "Establishing Leadership." 

It's gratifying to see that so many people here play like this with their dogs. Just a caution though, make sure that you remain the leader, and control when the play starts and stops. 

I'd also be careful about putting on 'special clothing' to allow the dog to play rougher. If he happens to initiate the play one day, he might go to the level of biting that he uses when you're in that clothing and that can result in injury. I had a client who wore welding gloves to play with his dog and once, when the dog started the play, he inflicted a serious bite. 

When using this sort of play, it's not necessary that it get as rough as some are describing.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lykoz said:


> Hopefully LouCastle will make a guest appearance and give us some more insight on the way he uses it, and what he means by this statement


_"A guest appearance?"_ lol. I use play the same way that the dogs do with other dogs. Nowadays you can see some of it on the nature TV shows on the History and Discovery channels. Running with them, bumping them with my knee, pushing them with hands. Head butting them when I'm on the ground with them, rolling around on the ground with them. This is usually separate from training and it's not used as any kind of reward. Rather it's about establishing and maintaining a position of being a fair and just leader. Once the dogs understand that this behavior is permissible, they usually initiate it. Leaders rarely start the play. 



Lykoz said:


> I have never used Prongs or Ecollars.. (not because i disagree with it, but because im still not confortable I have all the information I need) Although I believe these devices are important tools... I also believe they need to be used 100% correctly in order not to be abusive.


I think there's a difference between making a mistake with an Ecollar and _"abusive[ness]."_ That difference lies with intent. If you're training, then it's not going to be abuse. If you intend to cause pain without the intent of any learning, it's abuse. 



Lykoz said:


> A lot of the all positive guys have a field day when ceasar milan does that little back heal tap on a dog as a correction... They speak of dog abuse... breaking ribs etc (ribs are not made of glass)... I can tell you when i engage with my dogs they get more roughed up than that, as do i do... They enjoy it... I enjoy it too..


Sometimes I think that Cesar goes a bit too far. His use of Ecollar, from what little I've seen, I don't regularly watch his show, is pretty prehistoric. But I have little regard for the opinion that


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> This quotation (used with permission by Lykoz) is from THIS ARTICLE on establishing dominance. Today I'd change the title to "Establishing Leadership."
> 
> It's gratifying to see that so many people here play like this with their dogs. Just a caution though, make sure that you remain the leader, and control when the play starts and stops.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the information. 

Just wanted to say to avoid confusion, to readers that the Quote I got wasn't directly from the article, but rather a reply you made to me in discussion in that forum thread. Albeit the two are very closely linked, and that article is a very good and necessary read to put the title of the thread in context.

Thanks for sharing.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> _"A guest appearance?"_ This is usually separate from training and it's not used as any kind of reward. Rather it's about establishing and maintaining a position of being a fair and just leader. Once the dogs understand that this behavior is permissible, they usually initiate it. *Leaders rarely start the play.*


When you say leaders rarely initiate play... I am confused? I understand on the wolf model of doing things, its ussually a lower ranked wolf that does that, i think the omega if I recall correctly.... I am familiar with the concept... However practically: Is it not Ok for me to initiate play? Am I suposed to wait for the dog to initiate? I understand If he doesnt want to play, Im not going to force it... But at the same time, do I really want my dog trying to play, and bite my arm, etc. whenever he feels like it? I.e. I could be working on my computer? Is this desirable? Am I missing something, or not understanding?

Thanks for the info.

EDIT: From your other post I also saw this:


LouCastle said:


> Just a caution though, make sure that you remain the leader, and control when the play starts and stops.


So I am right in saying we initiate when play starts and stops? What do you mean exactly in top quote?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lykoz said:


> When you say leaders rarely initiate play... I am confused? I understand on the wolf model of doing things, its ussually a lower ranked wolf that does that, i think the omega if I recall correctly.... I am familiar with the concept... However practically: Is it not Ok for me to initiate play? Am I suposed to wait for the dog to initiate?


That's the suggestion if you're going to use a drive training system. One of the worst things you can do is to do something that is contrary to the dog's natural drives and behavior. Rarely does the dominant dog initiate play. Usually that starts with the subordinate dog. In fact, at times the dominant dog will refuse the offer. He remains indifferent. 



Lykoz said:


> I understand If he doesnt want to play, Im not going to force it... But at the same time, do I really want my dog trying to play, and bite my arm, etc. whenever he feels like it? I.e. I could be working on my computer? Is this desirable? Am I missing something, or not understanding?


When this happens and you're busy, just remain indifferent. It won't harm the relationship and it cements in the dog's mind that you are, indeed the leader. It shows him that YOU are in charge of when play starts. 

This is not a bad idea, even if you don't use a drive training system.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Interesting angle....I know the higher percentage of times I initiate the play sessions.....not talking frisbee type play but one on one prancing,dancing and rolling on the ground playing.

I think I might take her up on her offers to play at a higher rate and diminish my offerings a small amount...and be a bit indifferent a few times as well...and see what happens as the days go forward. Easy adjustment for me to make.

SuperG


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Thanks for the info Lou


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What works with my dogs and me might not work with other people and their dogs. 

We ought to be careful with basing training and relationships on how wild canids act while in captivity, but not as pets. It is a whole other story I think. They do not act like wolves born, bred, and living wild. But they do not act like pets either. Some of what they do translates, some does not. I think we just have to be careful with how we weigh these interactions. 

I agree that not all dogs are playful with toys as they are with physical interaction -- that almost always ilicits play in them, where toys, fetch etc, might be luke warm. I am not a big fan of pack hierarchy, etc. My dogs are smart enough to know that I walk on two legs all the time. They know I control the resources even though I do not make any big deal about it, and do not make them sing for their suppers. I guess it depends on the dog and on the person. If you ARE a leader, you don't have to conjure up ways to ensure your dogs know that. You just are. And they follow. 

Some of the rules that the NILIF or leader/Dominant one about play is that you control it, you start it, you finish it. I doubt that canids in packs actually follow this rule. I have seen enough litters of pups to see that they ALL initiate play with littermates and with their dam. They may become more descriminating with age, but I really think that it doesn't matter all that much, so long as there are not problems. 

If there are problems, I think that physical playing/roughhousing is probably not a good idea. Dogs play in the litter, in part sizing each other up. They do mock battles and they play and get the measure of each other. Do we really want to do that with dogs that we are having some challenges with?


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

Bravo to you that has physical contact in a rough and tumble play with your GSD. Physical contact with a good off button along with trained control is good for both human and dog. The GSD's desire for physical contact in it's many forms along with the breed's physical abilities are legendary. This has been one of my leading factors for years in the choice of a GSD. Wrestle till we are both out of gas, you betcha. The fact that the dog feels bad about the occasional ouch factor and can't say he is sorry enough by his actions can only bring a smile to my face at the fact that he cares. Yes they do care and the primal communication of physical contact brings it out in droves. Enjoy yourselves at play any way you see fit and stay fit so you can.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

selzer said:


> What works with my dogs and me might not work with other people and their dogs.
> 
> We ought to be careful with basing training and relationships on how wild canids act while in captivity, but not as pets. It is a whole other story I think. They do not act like wolves born, bred, and living wild. But they do not act like pets either. Some of what they do translates, some does not. I think we just have to be careful with how we weigh these interactions.
> 
> ...



I wonder if you may have taken some of this thread and exchanging of thoughts and ideas a bit out of context. I could be incorrect regarding your assumptions but I took the crux of this thread more in the sense of utilizing "primal" behaviors exhibited by the dog in order to better CONNECT with the dog at the dog's level. From day one I have observed certain behavior and posturing by my dogs which is as genuine as the day is long...it is not coerced, manufactured or "learned"...it is simply the dog's true nature being expressed by the dog. For example, when all of my dogs have laid those front legs on the ground with their hinds off the ground...it shouts " I want to play like a dog"....it doesn't scream " I want to play fetch or run through a course of obstacles".....I think when a dog takes that posture it is so clearly evident a dog wants to engage as it is instinctual driven. Yes, we can modify the engagement but we would be altering it to serve the human rather than allowing the dog to engage as it truly desires....so I say..why the heck not.....of course it's not for everyone but for those who choose to indulge the dog in it's true "primal" fashion, I think it is quality time and encourages a bond at a dog's level.

I have watched enough dogs engage each other and the route they choose for play is undeniably similar as it happens time after time...it's ever so consistent.

I don't play with my dog in this sense to build any rank or dominance...I simply do it to be considerate of my dog and her true desires in this department. I believe it helps the overall relationship and hopefully fulfills a desire in her to play like a dog and at the same time creating a more unique bond by truly interacting with the dog a bit more on her terms.

Today, we went 12 for 12 on frisbee catches...a new record...it's great fun, play and exercise BUT it is play which I the human devised. However, when she lays those front legs on the ground and gives me a few head fakes and we chase each other around, wrestle and she does "victory laps" to reengage with a few body checks and fairly soft mouthed grabs on her behalf...I know I have entered the realm of my dog and am playing with her on her terms. I find great satisfaction in this and I kind of believe she does as well.

Something which dawned on me while I was thinking about these sessions, when we are engaging each other in this fashion....we are more equals than at most any other times....and I think it is simply because I am closer to being in her world rather than her being in mine.

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

HOBY said:


> Bravo to you that has physical contact in a rough and tumble play with your GSD. Physical contact with a good off button along with trained control is good for both human and dog. The GSD's desire for physical contact in it's many forms along with the breed's physical abilities are legendary. This has been one of my leading factors for years in the choice of a GSD. Wrestle till we are both out of gas, you betcha. The fact that the dog feels bad about the occasional ouch factor and can't say he is sorry enough by his actions can only bring a smile to my face at the fact that he cares. Yes they do care and the primal communication of physical contact brings it out in droves. Enjoy yourselves at play any way you see fit and stay fit so you can.


You get it 

SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

SuperG said:


> I wonder if you may have taken some of this thread and exchanging of thoughts and ideas a bit out of context. I could be incorrect regarding your assumptions but I took the crux of this thread more in the sense of utilizing "primal" behaviors exhibited by the dog in order to better CONNECT with the dog at the dog's level. From day one I have observed certain behavior and posturing by my dogs which is as genuine as the day is long...it is not coerced, manufactured or "learned"...it is simply the dog's true nature being expressed by the dog. For example, when all of my dogs have laid those front legs on the ground with their hinds off the ground...it shouts " I want to play like a dog"....it doesn't scream " I want to play fetch or run through a course of obstacles".....I think when a dog takes that posture it is so clearly evident a dog wants to engage as it is instinctual driven. Yes, we can modify the engagement but we would be altering it to serve the human rather than allowing the dog to engage as it truly desires....so I say..why the heck not.....of course it's not for everyone but for those who choose to indulge the dog in it's true "primal" fashion, I think it is quality time and encourages a bond at a dog's level.
> 
> I have watched enough dogs engage each other and the route they choose for play is undeniably similar as it happens time after time...it's ever so consistent.
> 
> ...


And, I have seen puppies not taught to do so, but just naturally do that same play bow with a toy, engaging with the toy, and amusing itself with a toy. Puppies and Dogs play. Wolves in the wild, not so much. Not beyond when they are puppies. But pups and dogs play throughout their lives, or until old age makes them too sore to get the same enjoyment out of such things. Puppies LOVE to play physically with other puppies and with people. But they also naturally play with toys, and anything else that they can play with. Of course something that yips and moves and plays back is more exciting that a toy that just squeaks or rolls but I have seen even adult dogs with balls play bow, and go for the ball, and play bow and run and chase it. Play bows are not only about physical wrestling. And of course dogs play with each other using their bodies to run, romp, knock into each other, and their mouths and teeth on each other. That is what they are born with, and have all the time. I have seen puppies play together with sticks and ropes too. They will tug with each other. 

Play is important. Physical play is fine if there are not issues, just like letting the dog on the bed or couch is fine if there are no issues. But other forms of play are also valid, even in doggy-terms.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

selzer said:


> And, I have seen puppies not taught to do so, but just naturally do that same play bow with a toy, engaging with the toy, and amusing itself with a toy. Puppies and Dogs play. Wolves in the wild, not so much. Not beyond when they are puppies. But pups and dogs play throughout their lives, or until old age makes them too sore to get the same enjoyment out of such things. Puppies LOVE to play physically with other puppies and with people. But they also naturally play with toys, and anything else that they can play with. Of course something that yips and moves and plays back is more exciting that a toy that just squeaks or rolls but I have seen even adult dogs with balls play bow, and go for the ball, and play bow and run and chase it. Play bows are not only about physical wrestling. And of course dogs play with each other using their bodies to run, romp, knock into each other, and their mouths and teeth on each other. That is what they are born with, and have all the time. I have seen puppies play together with sticks and ropes too. They will tug with each other.
> 
> Play is important. Physical play is fine if there are not issues, just like letting the dog on the bed or couch is fine if there are no issues. But other forms of play are also valid, even in doggy-terms.


I agree with most all you cited in this post. Dogs interact with each other in playful manners and in many ways. And yes, my contention of encouraging this type of play is based upon a dog with minimal issues and has already exhibited an understanding of a reasonable coexistence with it's human.

SuperG


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I recommended Donn Yarnall's website. There are a couple of exercises there that are excellent if you have a dog that has issues with the owner. One is called a Leadership Walk and it needs a completely enclosed area (secure so that the dog can't go walkabout) that's about the size of a baseball field. Conveniently, you can use a baseball field if you like, and most communities have one. The protocol is so simple and easy to do, that it doesn't seem like much is happening. But I've found that it's one of the best ways to show a dog that you are the leader. It's great for those dogs who tend to become aggressive when physical methods are used to try to establish leadership.


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