# So what is the "correct" way to reply to people looking to breed?



## Freestep

These posts are a perennial problem. Every time someone posts looking to breed their dog, or looking for a stud to breed to, or looking for a new brood bitch, or whatever, everyone gets all in a dither.

Some say these folks get "chased away" by people who advise against breeding. Sometimes the posts come across as snarky and mean, I must admit. But it seems that even when the replies are polite, the OP usually ends up getting butt-hurt.

But are we supposed to give them all the breeding information they want, no questions asked? To me, this isn't always ethical. Sure, if a well-known and well-respected breeder is asking for thoughts on a particular stud, that's one thing. But how are we supposed to reply to the "I want to breed my dog" posts from people who don't know the first thing about the breed in general, or breeding in particular? It seems they sometimes take offense to anything short of "Sure, I live close to you and I have the perfect stud, let's get together on Friday!"

Admins?


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## gsdsar

How about if you don't have anything to add to the conversation, mainly an answer, don't post at all. 

I skip threads all the time if I know that I can't post something that will move the conversation forward or that will come across as counterproductive or rude. 

We don't always need to express our opinion, just because we can. Sometimes it's best to stay quiet. 


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## Freestep

gsdsar said:


> How about if you don't have anything to add to the conversation, mainly an answer, don't post at all.
> 
> I skip threads all the time if I know that I can't post something that will move the conversation forward or that will come across as counterproductive or rude.
> 
> We don't always need to express our opinion, just because we can. Sometimes it's best to stay quiet.


Well, I feel like I've always got something to add,  whether it's a desperate attempt to educate the OP, or a comment designed to bring the pedigree gurus out of the woodwork so that I can learn something, too. 

I do hold my tongue when I can, and let everyone else do the dirty work. If everyone else would hold their tongue and the OP got zero replies to such threads, I guess that would be the ideal way to prevent hurt feelings... but you and I know that's not going to happen!


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## Merciel

Freestep said:


> Well, I feel like I've always got something to add,  whether it's a desperate attempt to educate the OP, or a comment designed to bring the pedigree gurus out of the woodwork so that I can learn something, too.


I, for one, am glad you do. Even when we don't see 100% eye-to-eye, I always enjoy reading your posts. 

You know, I guess I don't really have a problem with how these threads typically go. Mostly people seem to try to be polite and informative, and they tailor their tone to the individual poster's apparent knowledge level. From the perspective of an outside observer, it seems like they mostly succeed. When the tone of the discussion goes downhill, as it sometimes does, it's almost always because of the OP getting defensive and/or evasive. But a lot of times people take their drubbing with surprising good grace, and I'm always heartened when I see that, because it's surely not easy to hold onto your dignity in such situations.

Anyway, you can only soften a "no, you probably shouldn't do that" so much. And a lot of the time, the answer _is_ "no, you probably shouldn't do that." Hitting the right balance between candor and courtesy is hard. But mostly I think people are pretty good at it in those threads.

Better than I'd be, anyhow, which is why I try not to post in them.


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## Freestep

Merciel said:


> I, for one, am glad you do. Even when we don't see 100% eye-to-eye, I always enjoy reading your posts.


Really? Well that's good to hear... since I can't seem to post anything without upsetting somebody, I'm glad at least one person gets something out of whatever I'm babbling about. 



> When the tone of the discussion goes downhill, as it sometimes does, it's almost always because of the OP getting defensive and/or evasive.


That's kind of what I was thinking. But is there a way to say what needs to be said without making the person defensive in the fist place? We always hear people say the forum is "running people off". Sometimes, when everyone is being polite and the OP is defensive anyway, I honestly don't understand why, or what in particular is upsetting. 

I actually do make an attempt to soften what I say if it's not what the OP wants to hear, but maybe some posters will take offense to *anything* that boils down to "no, that's probably not a good idea". Which makes me wonder "Why did they ask that question if they didn't want opinions?" 

Fortunately, I don't get asked about breeding very often at my grooming salon. Every once in a while someone will bring it up and I really have to bite my tongue, since people seem to be really sensitive about it, and I don't want to offend the people who pay my bills.


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## DaniFani

I think this is so specific to the OP of the thread, that you can't put a brush-stroke, "this-is-how-we-handle-these-threads" rule to it. Generally, each OP has or lacks knowledge/experience, and the responses are in accordance with that. 

I agree whole-heartedly with Merc. It's funny, but lately (at least to me) it seems that the "seasoned" members are the ones all up in a roar, defensive, and "butt-hurt." Most of the recent threads I've seen are humble, informative, and as kind as they can be to the OP, and then other members come on, roaring about how mean everyone is. It's actually quite comical to me lol.


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## Jack's Dad

My problem with it and other threads is the qualifications of those who are responding to the OP. 

Breeding and training are two topics where I think care should be taken.
Since I'm not a breeder the best I can offer is what I want in one but I don't believe it is my place to interrogate and then directly or indirectly tell them it it not o.k. for them to breed their dog.
How is someone supposed to take, "What makes you think your dog is breed worthy"?

I don't like it when people tell me their spiritual path is the right one and I should be on it.

Same thing with breeding. Even the breeders on here that are respected don't all operate the same way and they are not all breeding from the same lines of dogs. Not the same pedigrees. So who is qualified to say what should be bred by who.

I know that some have agendas of their own but that doesn't necessarily qualify them to decide who should and should not breed.

Like anything else those who choose to breed have to start somewhere.

Almost no one agrees on training so I think we should state that what we are telling someone is our experience or belief and not say things like find a "positive trainer only".

There are many versions of positive trainers just as there are many views as to what training with physical or aversive training means.


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## DaniFani

Freestep said:


> Really? Well that's good to hear... since I can't seem to post anything without upsetting somebody, I'm glad at least one person gets something out of whatever I'm babbling about.
> 
> 
> 
> *That's kind of what I was thinking. But is there a way to say what needs to be said without making the person defensive in the fist place? We always hear people say the forum is "running people off". Sometimes, when everyone is being polite and the OP is defensive anyway, I honestly don't understand why, or what in particular is upsetting.*
> 
> I actually do make an attempt to soften what I say if it's not what the OP wants to hear, but maybe some posters will take offense to *anything* that boils down to "no, that's probably not a good idea". Which makes me wonder "Why did they ask that question if they didn't want opinions?"
> 
> Fortunately, I don't get asked about breeding very often at my grooming salon. Every once in a while someone will bring it up and I really have to bite my tongue, since people seem to be really sensitive about it, and I don't want to offend the people who pay my bills.


I don't think you are going to ever make everyone happy. And I honestly think, *most coming on here that have never been here, asking about breeding, whole heartedly expect to get a bunch of support and excitement over new GSD puppies. So when they have that high of expectations, they are floored, and surprised when they get the complete opposite...opinions and suggestions to not breed....which they honestly, weren't even considering. No one likes to be told "No, I just don't think that's a good idea, and here's why." Especially when they are all excited about puppies...I mean, who doesn't love puppies!!


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## DaniFani

Jack's Dad said:


> *My problem with it and other threads is the qualifications of those who are responding to the OP. *
> 
> Breeding and training are two topics where I think care should be taken.
> Since I'm not a breeder the best I can offer is what I want in one but I don't believe it is my place to interrogate and then directly or indirectly tell them it it not o.k. for them to breed their dog.
> How is someone supposed to take, "What makes you think your dog is breed worthy"?
> 
> I don't like it when people tell me their spiritual path is the right one and I should be on it.
> 
> Same thing with breeding. Even the breeders on here that are respected don't all operate the same way and they are not all breeding from the same lines of dogs. Not the same pedigrees. So who is qualified to say what should be bred by who.
> 
> I know that some have agendas of their own but that doesn't necessarily qualify them to decide who should and should not breed.
> 
> Like anything else those who choose to breed have to start somewhere.
> 
> Almost no one agrees on training so I think we should state that what we are telling someone is our experience or belief and not say things like find a "positive trainer only".
> 
> There are many versions of positive trainers just as there are many views as to what training with physical or aversive training means.


I guess I just completely disagree. Are you saying that I have to successfully breed, work/show dogs to have an opinion on something like, "A stranger liked the way my dog looked at petsmart, said his bitch just went into season and wants me to breed."??? I don't think so.

Now, if someone posted pedigrees, and was asking advice, heck no I wouldn't respond....I am just learning about pedigrees....and I know lots of others on here that will pipe up that actually have knowledge and experience. But, I don't think you need to be a world-champion-breeder to urge against someone who wants to breed their dog to their neighbors dog, and wants advice on how to do the breeding....I wouldn't sit back and let a doctor do something *obviously* wrong or unethical, and not say a word because I haven't gone to medical school.


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## Jack's Dad

DaniFani said:


> I guess I just completely disagree. Are you saying that I have to successfully breed, work/show dogs to have an opinion on something like, "A stranger liked the way my dog looked at petsmart, said his bitch just went into season and wants me to breed."??? I don't think so.
> 
> Now, if someone posted pedigrees, and was asking advice, heck no I wouldn't respond....I am just learning about pedigrees....and I know lots of others on here that will pipe up that actually have knowledge and experience. But, I don't think you need to be a world-champion-breeder to urge against someone who wants to breed their dog to their neighbors dog, and wants advice on how to do the breeding....I wouldn't sit back and let a doctor do something *obviously* wrong or unethical, and not say a word because I haven't gone to medical school.


A stranger at Pet smart doesn't really apply here. That was personal and directed at you.

People can and do have opinions and are free to state them but as Cliff says all opinions aren't equal.

The actual breeders who do respond to these post are usually the most reasonable and least judgemental, which I find interesting.

I often agree with freestep and you Dani Fani but sometimes you just go places I wouldn't on certain threads.


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## DaniFani

Jack's Dad said:


> A stranger at Pet smart doesn't really apply here. That was personal and directed at you.
> 
> *But it does, the most previous thread was a stranger asking to breed their dog to OP's based on looks and the fact that the female was currently in heat.*
> 
> People can and do have opinions and are free to state them but as Cliff says all opinions aren't equal.
> 
> The actual breeders who do respond to these post are usually the most reasonable and least judgemental, which I find interesting.
> 
> I often agree with freestep and you Dani Fani but sometimes you just go places I wouldn't on certain threads.
> 
> *Yeah, don't know what to tell you there. I have several friends that have been breeding/working dogs since the mid-80's, they are a bit older/more experienced than I, and have really taken on mentoring me. They always laugh when I get upset that someone is breeding flippantly, or when I get offended when people tell me prong collars/ecollars are abusive, etc....They say, "as you grow in the dog community, you realize that you can't change anyone's minds, that only experience and life lessons will change people's minds...not you....and they all say how they used to "fight the good fight" but now they have learned it isn't worth it, unless someone comes directly to them, in person, and is open to learn or try new things. So I guess I just need to age in the dog-world lol.*


Response in bold  Jack's Dad, I agree with you on a whole lot of stuff too. Sometimes I just let my rescue-experience cloud my response to the breeding-threads. I know I need to work on that. I swear, I try really hard to be as humble as possible. And I thought I only really responded to the "obvious" threads....Ie...petsmart stranger, or someone who clearly has no idea what they are doing...and even then, my biggest suggestion is to find a mentor....nothing beats real-life help, instead of internet-forum help.


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## Whiteshepherds

I think Selzer usually handles those kinds of questions really well. She answers the actual question and still manages to give her views on breeding without insulting or giving the OP the third degree. 

Honestly, when someone asks as an example, how old a dog should be before she has a first litter the correct response isn't: "How do you know your dog is breed worthy? Who's the sire? Please post her pedigree. Have you had her x-rayed? Have you put titles on her? Do you have 40 years experience in breeding? Do you know that she can die giving birth? Are you ready to keep all the puppies if they don't sell? 

Why not just answer the question?
I don't breed my female until after the age of.....
I like to wait until mine have...titles, x-rays, pre-lims, whatever. 

Then engage the person in conversation: I take it you've never bred dogs before, what made you decide you might like to try it now, etc. etc. etc.

Sometimes a simple conversation gets you a lot further than giving a lecture.


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## dioworld

I totally with danifani , +1


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## JakodaCD OA

alot of good points made, mostly by Jacks Dad

When someone comes here and says "I'm breeding Fido who is akc to Fluffy down the street, cause I want a black puppy is this ok?"..

Once one (generalizing here), starts saying "Do you know how many dogs are in shelters?, Why breed your "pet" to a "pet"? Is the dog titled? WHY NOT??? Your pedigree stinks!" and the list goes on and on...

I think educating someone, or not putting someone on the defensive, (cause face it everyone loves their dog and thinks they are perfect! NO one wants to hear negative stuff about their dog) is better than lecturing.

I'll be the first to admit, some posts here make me want to scream..not only breeding, but training, and all these behavior issues I see...but I "try" to keep my cool or not respond. 

I cant blame people for getting defensive like I said EVERYONE loves their dogs and think they are perfect, they don't want a bunch of people saying "you got nothing for a pedigree, your just a puppymiller, etc." 

There is a way to "say it " and way not to "say it"..think before hitting the keyboard (and I admit, I can be at fault for doing just the above)..


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## gsdsar

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think Selzer usually handles those kinds of questions really well. She answers the actual question and still manages to give her views on breeding without insulting or giving the OP the third degree.
> 
> Honestly, when someone asks as an example, how old a dog should be before she has a first litter the correct response isn't: "How do you know your dog is breed worthy? Who's the sire? Please post her pedigree. Have you had her x-rayed? Have you put titles on her? Do you have 40 years experience in breeding? Do you know that she can die giving birth? Are you ready to keep all the puppies if they don't sell?
> 
> Why not just answer the question?
> I don't breed my female until after the age of.....
> I like to wait until mine have...titles, x-rays, pre-lims, whatever.
> 
> Then engage the person in conversation: I take it you've never bred dogs before, what made you decide you might like to try it now, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Sometimes a simple conversation gets you a lot further than giving a lecture.


Bravo!!! This exactly!!! Could not and did not say it better. 


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## doggiedad

it seems like the people asking about breeding or want to breed
are clueless. untill they have years and years of knowledge
they should leave the breeding to the pros.

i don't recommend breeder's to people. i find it hard to recommend
a breeder to someone that's nothing more than a name on a forum.


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## doggiedad

i think all of those questions are fair and should be asked.
40 years experience, i think 10 years is acceptable. 



Whiteshepherds said:


> I think Selzer usually handles those kinds of questions really well. She answers the actual question and still manages to give her views on breeding without insulting or giving the OP the third degree.
> 
> >>>>> Honestly, when someone asks as an example, how old a dog should be before she has a first litter the correct response isn't: "How do you know your dog is breed worthy? Who's the sire? Please post her pedigree. Have you had her x-rayed? Have you put titles on her?
> 
> >>>>> Do you have 40 years experience in breeding?<<<<<
> 
> Do you know
> that she can die giving birth? Are you ready to keep all the puppies if they don't sell? <<<<<
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not just answer the question?
> I don't breed my female until after the age of.....
> I like to wait until mine have...titles, x-rays, pre-lims, whatever.
> 
> Then engage the person in conversation: I take it you've never bred dogs before, what made you decide you might like to try it now, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Sometimes a simple conversation gets you a lot further than giving a lecture.


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## JackandMattie

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think Selzer usually handles those kinds of questions really well. She answers the actual question and still manages to give her views on breeding without insulting or giving the OP the third degree.
> 
> Honestly, when someone asks as an example, how old a dog should be before she has a first litter the correct response isn't: "How do you know your dog is breed worthy? Who's the sire? Please post her pedigree. Have you had her x-rayed? Have you put titles on her? Do you have 40 years experience in breeding? Do you know that she can die giving birth? Are you ready to keep all the puppies if they don't sell?
> 
> Why not just answer the question?
> I don't breed my female until after the age of.....
> I like to wait until mine have...titles, x-rays, pre-lims, whatever.
> 
> Then engage the person in conversation: I take it you've never bred dogs before, what made you decide you might like to try it now, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Sometimes a simple conversation gets you a lot further than giving a lecture.


Another +1 here. 

And I, too, have been guilty of chiming in on breeding threads, and training threads, and realized later that I should have remained silent. 

Then again, I So wanted to chime in on the recent thread, while at the same time I disappointed myself every time I opened it up to read the updates. I could tell from the opening thread that the OP came in on the defensive, and what followed only confirmed my opinion on that. 

This forum can be a great resource, but it also becomes sadly transparent to me that when a member resorts to all caps and I will *only* answer (reasonable!) questions in a PM, questions that could be informative for all the world who reads these threads, that the member's assertions are questionable. I might not have all the answers. I might suggest the wrong answer, sometimes, but I engage here with nothing to hide. So, I support the advice quoted, but am also trying to be realistic in saying that sometimes it's for the greater good that direct questions are posed. 

When we engage here, we have a tricky balance to achieve. We have a responsibility to engage the individual member in an effort to promote and protect the breed. But we also have an even greater responsibility to inform a much larger audience...

It's okay to question. It's actually very responsible to question in a public forum. Clearly, not every member of a global forum will have the talent or motivation to question as eloquently as others. We are only human, after all. 


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## Sunflowers

Frankly, I am beginning to feel like Don Quixote, and I officially give up.


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## JackandMattie

Sunflowers said:


> Frankly, I am beginning to feel like Don Quixote, and I officially give up.


Aww, please don't. You're one of the eloquent ones. You have a consistently positive voice. 


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## Merciel

JackandMattie said:


> So, I support the advice quoted, but am also trying to be realistic in saying that sometimes it's for the greater good that direct questions are posed.
> 
> When we engage here, we have a tricky balance to achieve. We have a responsibility to engage the individual member in an effort to promote and protect the breed. But we also have an even greater responsibility to inform a much larger audience...


This is a very good point and I agree: there is an audience out there of people who will find threads later, perhaps while Googling a particular breeder's kennel name to see what's been said about (and by) them. It's important to make a record for those people, too. Some of them might be prospective puppy buyers trying to research a purchase, and wondering exactly what they might get.


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## Freestep

I like to ask for pedigrees not because I want to tear them apart, but because I'm hoping that someone who understands pedigrees will respond, and then I and others can learn something.

I guess it's really hard to ask the question "Why do you want to breed?" without sounding snarky, but it's an honest question deserving an honest answer, IMO. It's just that nine times out of ten, the OP's answer is "because I want a puppy just like her" or "my neighbor down the street wants my male to breed with their female" or "I want to make some money back from the purchase price of the pup" or "I want my children to experience the miracle of birth", or a dozen or so other really bad reasons to breed a litter of GSDs (or any breed, for that matter). Then it comes down to everyone politely (for the most part) trying to talk the OP out of it, which they resent.

I guess the problem is, most people don't understand there is a difference between a dog's intrinsic quality as a member of the family, and its *breeding* quality. They become insulted if anyone says "your dog is not a candidate for breeding". Which to me, is not an insult at all--it's like saying "your dog is not a candidate for police work". The vast majority of dogs are not! But I guess everyone thinks their dog is special. And they are special, just not in terms of passing genetic material to the next generation.


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## Jack's Dad

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think Selzer usually handles those kinds of questions really well. She answers the actual question and still manages to give her views on breeding without insulting or giving the OP the third degree.
> 
> Honestly, when someone asks as an example, how old a dog should be before she has a first litter the correct response isn't: "How do you know your dog is breed worthy? Who's the sire? Please post her pedigree. Have you had her x-rayed? Have you put titles on her? Do you have 40 years experience in breeding? Do you know that she can die giving birth? Are you ready to keep all the puppies if they don't sell?
> 
> Why not just answer the question?
> I don't breed my female until after the age of.....
> I like to wait until mine have...titles, x-rays, pre-lims, whatever.
> 
> Then engage the person in conversation: I take it you've never bred dogs before, what made you decide you might like to try it now, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Sometimes a simple conversation gets you a lot further than giving a lecture.


Really nice post.

Well doggiedad your certainly free to flail away on those clueless unfortunates who want to breed.

Truth be told I'll bet a bunch of us on here have toyed with the idea of breeding. I know I have a couple of times and maybe that's why I have some empathy for my clueless brothers and sisters.

My first GSD was a German showline when I was in my 20's. She was re-gifted to me from a wealthy friend who couldn't keep her. She truly did have champion lines.
A guy at work had a registered GSD and we seriously considered breeding them. I knew nothing at all about breeding and luckily for me, we were renting so I couldn't do it.


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## Jack's Dad

Freestep;

The problem with the question "Why do you want to breed?" is on this forum there is only one right answer. That is, to better the breed. Anything else is unacceptable and the thread deteriorates rapidly after that.


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## doggiedad

Jack's DaD, stop being clueless when you read my post. Where, Jack's DaD, where did i flail? 



Jack's Dad said:


> Really nice post.
> 
> >>>>> Well doggiedad your certainly free to flail away on those clueless unfortunates who want to breed.<<<<<
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truth be told I'll bet a bunch of us on here have toyed with the idea of breeding. I know I have a couple of times and maybe that's why I have some empathy for my clueless brothers and sisters.
> 
> My first GSD was a German showline when I was in my 20's. She was re-gifted to me from a wealthy friend who couldn't keep her. She truly did have champion lines.
> A guy at work had a registered GSD and we seriously considered breeding them. I knew nothing at all about breeding and luckily for me, we were renting so I couldn't do it.


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## mycobraracr

Freestep said:


> I guess the problem is, most people don't understand there is a difference between a dog's intrinsic quality as a member of the family, and its *breeding* quality. They become insulted if anyone says "your dog is not a candidate for breeding". Which to me, is not an insult at all--it's like saying "your dog is not a candidate for police work". The vast majority of dogs are not! But I guess everyone thinks their dog is special. And they are special, just not in terms of passing genetic material to the next generation.


 

You nailed it!


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## Merciel

Freestep said:


> They become insulted if anyone says "your dog is not a candidate for breeding". Which to me, is not an insult at all--it's like saying "your dog is not a candidate for police work". The vast majority of dogs are not! But I guess everyone thinks their dog is special. And they are special, just not in terms of passing genetic material to the next generation.


This is a tough one for me, because it encroaches on a gray area where two different interests collide.

It's in the interest of the breed to maintain as much healthy genetic diversity as possible. Therefore you _want_ a large number of unrelated dogs to breed and should err on the side of breeding the "maybes" (the untitled, untested, unproven family dogs with unknown pedigrees who are basically healthy and sound and have something reasonably close to the breed standard in temperament and appearance) because it keeps the breed healthier.

It's in the interest of shelter dogs to reduce the population of companion puppies who are not extraordinary in some way. If what you want is a family pet, there are plenty of really nice ones in shelters and rescues. Those _are_ the puppies who cause shelter dogs to die. Those are the one-for-one perfectly nice, unextraordinary puppies who take the pet homes that could be happy with dogs from either source.

So when it comes to those in-between gray area cases where the dogs are basically healthy and basically temperamentally okay, but don't have anything in particular that distinguishes them from an equally healthy and nice homeless dog in a shelter... well, which way do you go?

I think about this a lot because when I was growing up, my parents let their Lab have a litter of puppies. She was an untitled, untested, kinda-sorta pedigreed dog (by which I mean that I genuinely do not know if she had AKC papers, but her "pedigree" was known because she came from a long line of hunting dogs whose owners my dad knew). She was bred to another Lab who was pretty much the same deal, and their puppies were sold for $300 via newspaper advertisement to various nice families in our area.

That's a BYB story for sure.

But that dog was _also_ a superb working gun dog, and so was the sire. They were great field Labs with unerring instincts, strong bodies, a keen desire to work, high energy, and tremendous affection for their people. They went out in cold black mornings during duck season and they worked half-frozen lakes and they did exactly what that breed is designed to do.

So which way should that story come out? I don't know. It's been more than ten years and I still think it's a gray area. One of those puppies went to a hunting home, the rest just became family pets in homes that would probably have been just as happy with a similar-looking lab mix out of the local pound. Maybe happier, since a field-line Lab is a pretty demanding dog.

The interests of the breed push one way, the interests of shelter dogs push the other.


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## doggiedad

i thought about breeding but i want to buy my way in. i want
to give money to a reputable (top notch breeder). all i want
to do is say "here's some money towards any litter you have.
all i want is the papers to read Co-owned by Vom Vom Von
and doggiedad.

"empathy for my clueless brothers and sisters". that's hilarious.



Jack's Dad said:


> Really nice post.
> 
> Well doggiedad your certainly free to flail away on those clueless unfortunates who want to breed.
> 
> >>>>> Truth be told I'll bet a bunch of us on here have toyed with the idea of breeding.<<<<<
> 
> I know I have a couple of times and maybe that's why I have some
> 
> >>>>> empathy for my clueless brothers and sisters.<<<<<
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My first GSD was a German showline when I was in my 20's. She was re-gifted to me from a wealthy friend who couldn't keep her. She truly did have champion lines.
> A guy at work had a registered GSD and we seriously considered breeding them. I knew nothing at all about breeding and luckily for me, we were renting so I couldn't do it.


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## Jack's Dad

doggiedad said:


> i think all of those questions are fair and should be asked.
> 40 years experience, i think 10 years is acceptable.


Right here if you think this stuff won't bother people.
Even clueless people love their dogs and may even think they are breed worthy.

By the way I prefer to call myself clueless at times but don't think it is necessary from you.


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## doggiedad

it was necessary and it shows you an i think the same about you.



Jack's Dad said:


> Right here if you think this stuff won't bother people.
> Even clueless people love their dogs and may even think they are breed worthy.
> 
> >>>>> By the way "I prefer to call myself clueless" at times but don't think it is necessary from you.<<<<< [/QUOTE]


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## marbury

doggiedad said:


> it seems like the people asking about breeding or want to breed
> are clueless. untill they have years and years of knowledge
> they should leave the breeding to the pros.


I reckon this is a common opinion here, even if more people don't chime in. But I have met very few people who were able to spring into the "years and years of knowledge" category spontaneously. I mean, somehow you have to GET those years and years of knowledge. The now-hallmark breeders who can proudly tote "breeding GSDs for over 25 years" were, lets face it, n00bs over 25 years ago in one way or another.

There is a starting place for every person that attempts every new goal. If we run off all the newbies who genuinely want to make a go of being something great we either push them into being... well, _less great_ (BYB or puppymill, at worst) or just crush their spirit all together. Then the question becomes how to 'weed out' the wannabies and clueless laypeople who need a good reality check from the truly motivated, caring, responsible people and then narrow in on the latter to help them... not marginalize and trivialize their experience in the breed.

I will tell you from my personal experience that this forum, with regards to breeding at least, is shark infested water. You cannot have an opinion without someone disagreeing with you, and people are backing away instead of speaking up because some very loud voices carry farther than others. When I threw myself to the sharks I got all sorts of wonderful support via PM, because people were too scared to get gunned down themselves. I thanked them because it was their kindness that kept me here and kept me open-minded and learning, not the nitpicking that was going on in the general banter of my breeding thread. I will own up to absolutely being part of the problem; I have to remind myself of that all the time. No two people will ever agree on what the "true" GSD breeder should, needs, or even can do. That's life.

Re-read, let me clarify: "shark infested water" was intended as more of a visualization, not to call responders to breeding questions sharks themselves. There are a lot of wonderful folks on here who give consistently good advice (many have already been noted on this thread!). There are some folks who are more blunt than others, but the point of the statement is to point out, as stated, that any opinion will get you in trouble with SOMEBODY.


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## mycobraracr

marbury said:


> I reckon this is a common opinion here, even if more people don't chime in. But I have met very few people who were able to spring into the "years and years of knowledge" category spontaneously. I mean, somehow you have to GET those years and years of knowledge. The now-hallmark breeders who can proudly tote "breeding GSDs for over 25 years" were, lets face it, n00bs over 25 years ago.


 

People can start gaining experience and knowledge of the breed without breeding. I will be a breeder at some point. I'm not going to start by throwing dogs together. I have been studying the breed for a while now. I'm active with my current dogs in three different venues. I am friends with multiple reputable breeders that share their knowledge with me. That's how people should start. Honestly I'm getting sick of the "everyone has to start somewhere" crap. Yes, everyone does need to start somewhere. Like maybe having some knowledge of the breed.

Oh and this wasn't directed specifically at you even though I quoted you. I have been wanting to say that for a while and your post just gave me the opportunity haha.


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## marbury

mycobraracr said:


> Oh and this wasn't directed specifically at you even though I quoted you. I have been wanting to say that for a while and your post just gave me the opportunity haha.


I was going to say... you just absolutely underlined my point about shark infested waters! :laugh:

I obviously agree with you. I've been calling myself an aspiring breeder for three years... not a litter to my name, nor one planned. But breeding is not all about breed knowledge and pedigrees. You have to get your hands dirty, and folks forget that. It's romantic to have an intimate knowledge of every nook and cranny of every line from across the globe, but all the aged pedigrees and tomes of old Reviews won't prepare a new breeder for their first dead puppy, or a stud that won't mount. Or how to properly raise a litter, how to socialize, how to select families for placement or how to pick their keeper. Practical experience does not spontaneously erupt from nowhere. There are things that you cannot read in a book and you cannot master from decades of 'talking about it'.

And to cover my butt to avoid more 'sharking', I am NOT ADVOCATING THAT PEOPLE START KNOCKING UP FIDO JUST TO LEARN HOW TO WHELP. I'm just pointing out that there are MANY aspects to breeding, and all that ever seems to be addressed on the forum with any consistency is "you obviously don't know pedigrees, you're not ready" and "your bitch could die, you heartless fool."


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## Lucy Dog

99% of the people who post the "should i breed" threads don't have a clue. No one wants to say it, but everyone knows it. It's either about money, getting a free puppy out of their family pet, the miracle of birth, etc, etc. All the wrong reasons to breed and all very selfish IMO.

When people give them a dose of reality, they typically storm off and are never to be heard from again. They don't like what they hear and are too sensitive for a reality check, so people try to give their not-too-harsh answers. The thread goes on for 10+ pages and the OP is gone forever. Happens (almost) every time.

So my stance is... give the OP your opinion no matter how harsh it is without intentionally hurting feeling or breaking site rules. Everyone's got a right to an opinion on the subject. It's a message board and we're here to discuss. The OP can then pick and choose which advice they want to listen to or ignore. They can then decide where to go from there. Hopefully some of it makes an impact. In the end, people are going to do what they want to do regardless. Hopefully that's not always the case.


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## selzer

Unsolicited advice is not generally well-received. 

You can get a whole lot farther if you do not press the buttons that will shoot the defences up. 

Answering the question honestly, and then providing a nudge in the right direction may go a lot farther than a totally negative post. For example, "My dog is black and tan, his dog is dusty white, is this color combination something we should do?" 

What happened was people asking totally un-related questions: Are her hips OFA'd, do they have titles? From the askers POV, that is like calling a store and asking if they have lawn tractor belts, and having them tell you what dog houses are on sale -- you're going to hang up. 

The best answer is, sandy white is outside of the standard, and should not be bred -- of course this is likely not what the OP wants to hear, so they may put this in the NAY list, and not give it much thought or credit. But notice that it really doesn't make any judgements, like "If you breed a sandy white dog to a black and tan bitch, then you are a BYB." It just says it straight up, "No, that's a disqualifying fault and should not be bred."

Of course that is not always going to work if people are not attempting to create a show dog. So what I did (early on) was to say yes, color is the last thing to look at, but it's the first thing we see, and if it is already a fault, then we do not have to go further and look at the rest of the dogs in question. I also mentioned that the stud dog owner needs to guard his dog's reputation. Because if you breed to a less than stellar bitch, and down the line you want to breed to a better quality bitch, your dog may already be known for producing problems. 

But of course the thread itself got into who is at fault for all the dogs sitting in shelters, and the like, and frankly, these arguments are not going to work for the average joe. He has never dumped a litter, and does not intend on dumping this one, so it simply does not apply to him, in his mind. He has no clue that one or more of those pups might be dumped down the road by the owners he has found for them. You can tell him that, but it is really unlikely for him to believe that.

The post that said, this is my experience, I had x-puppies, and this one did thus, and that one did thus, and so forth held more weight. But mostly individuals believe that they will not have those issues. 

I think many people here would believe if there is ANY risk to their bitch, they will not breed her. There is ALWAYS a risk, so there is always merit in saying, "I looked into breeding Molly, but then I heard of so-n-so who lost their bitch and the litter. I just wouldn't be able to handle that, so I decided not to breed her." That really doesn't work with males though. Ok, a bitch can do damage to a stud dog, but that is really not all that common, not nearly as common as complications in whelping causing the loss of litter and or the bitch.

I guess my point is that for SOME people it makes more of an impact to say something that specifically pertains to them personally, rather than blaming them for something they had no part in, a problem for which there really are no answers that any individual can change. 

I mean it is kind of like the issue of polluting the environment. If someone tells you that they are looking to buy a car, and you tell them that he will ruin the world by using a car that requires gas and spews forth all kinds of pollution -- they will just look at you as though you have totally lost all your marbles. Instead, you might suggest a smaller, more fuel efficient car -- cheaper for the owner, and better on the environment -- that pertains to him, and it contributes to the whole.


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## Freestep

Merciel said:


> But that dog was _also_ a superb working gun dog, and so was the sire. They were great field Labs with unerring instincts, strong bodies, a keen desire to work, high energy, and tremendous affection for their people. They went out in cold black mornings during duck season and they worked half-frozen lakes and they did exactly what that breed is designed to do.


Well, at least the dogs were *proven* in some way. I'm not a title Nazi; I love to see dogs actually doing what they were bred to do, whether or not they achieve a piece of paper for it. So yeah, there is a gray area, but your dogs were probably more breedworthy than 99.9% of BYBs.

I actually thought I wanted to be a breeder when I was younger, and dreamed of having top-quality dogs, showing them, putting titles on them, and all that stuff. That is, until I started working with dogs professionally, and I saw the fallout of indiscriminate breeding practices and the pet overpopulation problem--the scope of the problem was way, way, WAY bigger than I realized. Learning that dog breeding is rife with ethical and political issues, I realized that I simply don't have the temperament to be a breeder. Every once in a while, we get a poster than realizes the same thing after starting a "should I breed my dog" thread, and it's heartwarming. 

I do breed poultry and dairy goats; none of them are titled, only one of the goats is registered, and I don't show. When I start getting too many, I sell them on craigslist at very reasonable prices to families interested in having a milking goat and/or a few laying hens. The big difference between breeding companion animals and breeding livestock is that you can eat your mistakes.... Literally.


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## marbury

As usual, bravo! Thanks, Selzer. Voice of reason... oh, to learn your ways.


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## Sunflowers

marbury said:


> I reckon this is a common opinion here, even if more people don't chime in. But I have met very few people who were able to spring into the "years and years of knowledge" category spontaneously. I mean, somehow you have to GET those years and years of knowledge.


And that is why they are told to join a club, find good breeders to learn from, get a mentor, get experience, show, title, become knowledgeable, and *then* begin to think about what they would like to do and accomplish.

The people I know who want to breed are doing all of this, and have not yet even put two dogs together, because they are busy educating themselves. 
That is how they are *getting* their years of knowledge. They are working their croups off!

You cannot grab two oversized GSDs who are "black and tan and really good with kids," produce, oh, four litters, then come here looking for a dog to buy, not even knowing your own lines from Adam, and expect people to applaud and pretend to think you are doing a great thing. 

They come here to get validation and to find dogs for their already started "breeding program," and there is a reason I put that in quotes. 

Putting the cart before the horse is never a good idea, but many who come here asking questions not only have done that, but the cart is on its way downhill, fast.

Yet, some are saying we should just nod and smile?


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## selzer

marbury said:


> I reckon this is a common opinion here, even if more people don't chime in. But I have met very few people who were able to spring into the "years and years of knowledge" category spontaneously. I mean, somehow you have to GET those years and years of knowledge. The now-hallmark breeders who can proudly tote "breeding GSDs for over 25 years" were, lets face it, n00bs over 25 years ago in one way or another.
> 
> There is a starting place for every person that attempts every new goal. If we run off all the newbies who genuinely want to make a go of being something great we either push them into being... well, _less great_ (BYB or puppymill, at worst) or just crush their spirit all together. Then the question becomes how to 'weed out' the wannabies and clueless laypeople who need a good reality check from the truly motivated, caring, responsible people and then narrow in on the latter to help them... not marginalize and trivialize their experience in the breed.
> 
> I will tell you from my personal experience that this forum, with regards to breeding at least, is shark infested water. You cannot have an opinion without someone disagreeing with you, and people are backing away instead of speaking up because some very loud voices carry farther than others. When I threw myself to the sharks I got all sorts of wonderful support via PM, because people were too scared to get gunned down themselves. I thanked them because it was their kindness that kept me here and kept me open-minded and learning, not the nitpicking that was going on in the general banter of my breeding thread. I will own up to absolutely being part of the problem; I have to remind myself of that all the time. No two people will ever agree on what the "true" GSD breeder should, needs, or even can do. That's life.
> 
> Re-read, let me clarify: "shark infested water" was intended as more of a visualization, not to call responders to breeding questions sharks themselves. There are a lot of wonderful folks on here who give consistently good advice (many have already been noted on this thread!). There are some folks who are more blunt than others, but the point of the statement is to point out, as stated, that any opinion will get you in trouble with SOMEBODY.


You are right. Until you have whelped a litter, raised it, and found homes for the puppies, and then watched how they did in their new families, there is nothing any books or training, and even mentoring that is going to prepare you for doing that. 

You can possibly offer to help a rescue or shelter by whelping and raising a litter and that puts you up several steps, but not wholly. The people who will take a rescue pup for a fee is not the same as the people who are looking to buy a pure-bred shepherd for a purpose. So, you have part of the equation, and not the whole.

And litters can look a lot different in the whelping box than they looked on paper. You really do not know for sure what will happen when you breed dog A to bitch B. You can only have an idea how the genetics will play out. But nature is beautiful, and also a bit of a mystery. So, we do not have all the answers. But the more we breed, and the more we are around litters that others have bred, the better we can be at foretelling what a litter will contain. And this is why the breeder with a single bitch, that wants to breed just one litter, or two, is not really breeding for the future either. 

It is not something that everyone should do to gain experience, but for those that are considering it seriously, there does come a point, when the learning has to be hands on.


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## marbury

Sunflowers said:


> Yet, some are saying we should just nod and smile?


If that's what I implied, I'm absolutely horrible at writing and I apologize.

There's a difference between education and attack. Good professors know the difference and use it to their advantage during critique in their classes. Good posters on any forum can make the difference between an "aha" moment for the OP and an "OMG YOU GUYS SUCK I JUST ASKED A QUESTION I'M NEVER COMING BACK!!1!"

When my mom told me to do something as a kid I pretty much automatically said "no". When my dad told me to do the exact same thing it actually sounded like a great idea. Two different communication styles, and neither parent resulted to "nodding and smiling". I think the OP wants to know how we hit that sweet spot where posters are debunking whatever mythological version of reality the laypeople are entertaining while still staying _nice_.


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## Sunflowers

marbury said:


> If that's what I implied, I'm absolutely horrible at writing and I apologize.
> 
> There's a difference between education and attack. Good professors know the difference and use it to their advantage during critique in their classes. Good posters on any forum can make the difference between an "aha" moment for the OP and an "OMG YOU GUYS SUCK I JUST ASKED A QUESTION I'M NEVER COMING BACK!!1!"
> 
> When my mom told me to do something as a kid I pretty much automatically said "no". When my dad told me to do the exact same thing it actually sounded like a great idea. Two different communication styles, and neither parent resulted to "nodding and smiling". I think the OP wants to know how we hit that sweet spot where posters are debunking whatever mythological version of reality the laypeople are entertaining while still staying _nice_.


Marbury, that was not addressed specifically to you, and there is no need to apologize. I am just frustrated with recent threads, that is all.
Problem is, not everyone is a stellar communicator in writing. 
Without the benefit of tone and body language, all we have is what is written on the screen. 
A simple question such as, "What is the pedigree?" can either be interpreted as friendly curiosity or an offer of an expert opinion, or as an attack. 

I have seen people go off on members who have taken time to try and help, only to be accused of being rude or snarky.
I am honestly losing patience with people who are so easily offended. 
As a matter of fact, I think thick skin is actually needed, if you are going to be joining the dog breeder community.


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## marbury

selzer said:


> You can possibly offer to help a rescue or shelter by whelping and raising a litter and that puts you up several steps, but not wholly. The people who will take a rescue pup for a fee is not the same as the people who are looking to buy a pure-bred shepherd for a purpose. So, you have part of the equation, and not the whole.


Exactly! I did rescue in Chicago for years before I even got into GSDs. We pulled pregnant bitches from high-kill, let them whelp, & raised and placed the pups. All mutts, and all fantastic experiences for my intended future as a breeder. I watched stillborns, I picked dead puppies out of the box. I watched a bitch try to eat her litter. I cleaned placental blood off my bathroom ceiling. I worked for a GSD breeder, went through two litters with her start to finish. Learned about silhouettes, the importance of a still image, angles and growth stages. I know Biosensor back to front and front to back. I'm attending a litter evaluation from a specialist a friend is flying in for her litter of english setters. I got a job at a vet that does repro work and have held for AI, inserted rods, checked slides for sperm mobility and mortility. I've been ring-side for c-sections, resuscitated pups, bottle fed litters, sewn shut cleft palates, and dealt with eclampsia in our patients.

But that didn't seem to matter when people kept telling me that I had no experience here. Because I haven't read every Review since the first published issue and because I haven't defined my breeding goals with regard to lines. Instead of helpful words and encouragement to start on my booklearning to catch up to my practical, I was accused of all sorts of things and told I was all manner of non-flattering things. And I hadn't even bred... didn't even have a litter planned. Instead of giving me the opportunity to expand on my experience I was told repeatedly and without mercy that PEDIGREE IS ALL. I HAD to know pedigrees, and until I finish my 10 year degree in the German Shepherd Dog I have no business even dreaming of calling myself a breeder. And that wasn't the opinion of everybody; the PMs told me that, and I was so thankful.

That's my point. That's my ultimate point here. Y'all could have scared me off, but I'm a tenacious little bugger. So I'll do right to prove I can and will. But if we scare off the next kid who is better at doing that typing we pass up that opportunity.

</soapbox>


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## Freestep

Sunflowers said:


> I have seen people go off on members who have taken time to try and help, only to be accused of being rude or snarky.
> I am honestly losing patience with people who are so easily offended.
> As a matter of fact, I think thick skin is actually needed, if you are going to be joining the dog breeder community.


Ya think? 

I too am often dumbfounded by how easily offended some people are. Especially when others are trying to be polite, friendly, and helpful, really going out of their way to do so, and the OP still manages to be offended, insulted, "attacked", or "slandered".  It leaves my head spinning at times. That's why I started this thread--to try and understand what is going through people's heads.

Of course, it's always possible that people are just trolling.


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## marbury

Sunflowers said:


> I have seen people go off on members who have taken time to try and help, only to be accused of being rude or snarky.
> I am honestly losing patience with people who are so easily offended.
> As a matter of fact, I think thick skin is actually needed, if you are going to be joining the dog breeder community.


Too true. I know I need to toughen up m'self. Good point indeed!


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## Jack's Dad

marbury said:


> If that's what I implied, I'm absolutely horrible at writing and I apologize.
> 
> There's a difference between education and attack. Good professors know the difference and use it to their advantage during critique in their classes. Good posters on any forum can make the difference between an "aha" moment for the OP and an "OMG YOU GUYS SUCK I JUST ASKED A QUESTION I'M NEVER COMING BACK!!1!"
> 
> When my mom told me to do something as a kid I pretty much automatically said "no". When my dad told me to do the exact same thing it actually sounded like a great idea. Two different communication styles, and neither parent resulted to "nodding and smiling". I think the OP wants to know how we hit that sweet spot where posters are debunking whatever mythological version of reality the laypeople are entertaining while still staying _nice_.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Sunflowers

marbury said:


> Too true. I know I need to toughen up m'self. Good point indeed!


To seriously join a group of knowledgeable people, and learn to do something right, you need to pay your dues and be able to accept criticism. 

Don't ask how I know-- long story


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## selzer

marbury said:


> Exactly! I did rescue in Chicago for years before I even got into GSDs. We pulled pregnant bitches from high-kill, let them whelp, & raised and placed the pups. All mutts, and all fantastic experiences for my intended future as a breeder. I watched stillborns, I picked dead puppies out of the box. I watched a bitch try to eat her litter. I cleaned placental blood off my bathroom ceiling. I worked for a GSD breeder, went through two litters with her start to finish. Learned about silhouettes, the importance of a still image, angles and growth stages. I know Biosensor back to front and front to back. I'm attending a litter evaluation from a specialist a friend is flying in for her litter of english springers. I got a job at a vet that does repro work and have held for AI, inserted rods, checked slides for sperm mobility and mortility. I've been ring-side for c-sections, resuscitated pups, bottle fed litters, sewn shut cleft palates, and dealt with eclampsia in our patients.
> 
> But that didn't seem to matter when people kept telling me that I had no experience here. Because I haven't read every Review since the first published issue and because I haven't defined my breeding goals with regard to lines. Instead of helpful words and encouragement to start on my booklearning to catch up to my practical, I was accused of all sorts of things and told I was all manner of non-flattering things. And I hadn't even bred... didn't even have a litter planned. Instead of giving me the opportunity to expand on my experience I was told repeatedly and without mercy that PEDIGREE IS ALL. I HAD to know pedigrees, and until I finish my 10 year degree in the German Shepherd Dog I have no business even dreaming of calling myself a breeder. And that wasn't the opinion of everybody; the PMs told me that, and I was so thankful.
> 
> That's my point. That's my ultimate point here. Y'all could have scared me off, but I'm a tenacious little bugger. So I'll do right to prove I can and will. But if we scare off the next kid who is better at doing that typing we pass up that opportunity.
> 
> </soapbox>


I think having children is much more important and involved than having and rearing a litter of puppies. But for some reason, it is typical to start having children when we are in our irresponsible youth, and by the time we get to a more stable middle age, our child-bearing ability is largely diminished, and perhaps we can not have children at all. 

If we wait until all our ducks are in the row before having children, we will never have chidren at all, and perhaps a great set of parents will have never raised any children. 

And those parents that start at 30 or 35 rather than 18, make a LOT of the same mistakes that their younger counterparts make. Or they make different mistakes. But they are not suddenly perfect just because they are nearly double the age that many parents are when they become parents. 

If you wait too long to start a breeding program, it becomes harder and harder to climb through a window to "rescue" a puppy that the bitch took outside, or that climbed outside and is sitting out there in the rain after managing to get out of the whelping box. 

And when your 17 month old puppy manages to swing their body into your poor defenseless knee, it HURTS! 

If you have 50 years of experience breeding, then you had to start pretty young and dumb. So long as you are learning every step of the way, I do not see that as such a bad thing. Since I started 8 years ago, I will never reach the level that someone who started their journey younger. Of course, just because someone has been breeding since they were weaned does not mean they know what they are doing, and are doing a great job of it. 

Breeding is not for whimps. It is not for people who want a puppy out of their dog. It is not for people who are afraid to risk something dear to them. It is not for people who can't make hard decisions. It should not be gone into lightly. But we do need people who are willing to learn continuously to take that plunge and take that next step. Not willy-nilly. But if we all leave all the breeding to the experts, then in a few short, canine generations, the only people out there breeding will be the millers. 

That doesn't mean we slap every person who asks a question on the back and welcome them to the brotherhood of breeders. But we should not pound on every person who asks a question because we are so sure that the person is out to make a buck, or doesn't know the first thing about breeding, or our breed, etc.


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## Lucy Dog

Sunflowers said:


> I am honestly losing patience with people who are so easily offended.
> As a matter of fact, I think thick skin is actually needed, if you are going to be joining the dog breeder community.


Most probably aren't looking to become "breeders" as they see breeders. They're just looking to have that one litter and that's it. To keep their family pet's lineage alive and well.


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## Sunflowers

selzer said:


> But we should not pound on every person who asks a question because we are so sure *that the person is out to make a buck, or doesn't know the first thing about breeding, or our breed, etc*.


Do we get to pound them when that becomes blatantly obvious? :wild:


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## Sunflowers

Lucy Dog said:


> Most probably aren't looking to become "breeders" as they see breeders. They're just looking to have that one litter and that's it. To keep their family pet's lineage alive and well.


And keep the shelters in business, too.

I guess by now people know I have a very strong opinion about this. 
That is why I said I feel like Don Quixote.


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## martemchik

Anybody else read through the posters that have clearly done their research on the forum? Like they know not to ask the crazy questions that will just get everyone riled up, and they tend to have ambiguous answers to the trifecta of "titled? pedigreed? health checked?"

The sad thing to me is that I'm part of my local GSDCA affiliated club...according to this forum, my boy should never be bred. But then when I see what many of the breeders at my club are throwing together...I wonder why not just breed my boy? A litter or two out of him would be a small blip on the radar compared to what some of the studs around my area are throwing out (I'm talking dozens of litters). And yes...its still producing a litter that might end up in a shelter/rescue...but I'm just saying it to prove a point. On top of that I could get $500 or more for my dog doing a little bit of work.

The thing is...many of these people don't care. They just think, well...its a bunch of GSD people that love their dog like I love mine and I'm sure they'll be very helpful and happy about 10 more GSD puppies in this world. Truth is...those of us that are "involved" in the breed, or do anything more than just "own a pet" (and sitting on an internet forum for GSDs counts), are a very weird 1%. We have some very strong feelings about breeding, dogs, sports, ect...and the other 99% just doesn't get it.


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## Lucy Dog

Andy made a thread a while back - "why ask if you don't want to hear". It's one of my favorite threads and really sums up a lot of these threads.

People just want to hear reassurance and validation that they're doing the right thing. They don't care what or how you throw it at them, they just want to hear what they want to hear. If they don't hear it, they're being attacked and they're gone. It's not always the "teachers" that are the problem in these types of threads.


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## Jack's Dad

It's the internet. I don't think folks would be so quick to interrogate if it was their next door neighbor. Someone they like and hope to get along with as long as they live so close.

I believe face to face the questioning would be different if it was a neighbor, friend or relative.

Since it's the internet, go ahead and pound on them.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> Ya think?
> 
> I too am often dumbfounded by how easily offended some people are. Especially when others are trying to be polite, friendly, and helpful, really going out of their way to do so, and the OP still manages to be offended, insulted, "attacked", or "slandered".  It leaves my head spinning at times. That's why I started this thread--to try and understand what is going through people's heads.
> 
> Of course, it's always possible that people are just trolling.


Uhg! Breeding is something between science and art, and those babies you produce are like your masterpiece. And they have personalities by eight weeks when they can go home. And you become attached to them. When people gush about how wonderful your puppy is, and how happy they are with it, it makes you feel like a million bucks. When people are unhappy with anything about the puppy, if a puppy has issues, it is a lot worse than having someone attack your poetry or prose or painting or what-have-you. 

Like most things, when people are happy with their purchase, they just keep going, some will call and tell you the breeder how it is going. But mostly, they don't. Usually it is when there is something going wrong when they call. 

The crap people here give a breeder-wanna-be is nothing, really. You have to make tough choices too sometimes, and you have to live with those choices. You have to judge people, seriously, before placing a puppy with them. You have to look at this little sweet soft baby-critter and listen to a prospective buyer asking when they can put an e-collar or prong collar on it. 

The problem with running people off the site, is that they just have the idea that we are a bunch of nuts or snobs. It will not stop them from putting Dog A together with Bitch B to have a litter of puppies. They will only have reservations for doing so, if they hear what you post, and if it rings true for them. 

When their babies are born, and they are running into an issue here, or an issue there, or how to find the right homes, they won't come here, because we will just pound on them for not accepting the gift of our judgemental advice. 

I think that in the name of rescue or the breed, the people putting out their judgemental opinions, however harsh they are, really can do more harm than good to the very ones they claim to care so much about.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Lucy Dog said:


> Andy made a thread a while back - "why ask if you don't want to hear". It's one of my favorite threads and really sums up a lot of these threads.
> 
> People just want to hear reassurance and validation that they're doing the right thing. They don't care what or how you throw it at them, they just want to hear what they want to hear. If they don't hear it, they're being attacked and they're gone. It's not always the "teachers" that are the problem in these types of threads.


I still wonder about that. I think though that the manner of treating especially relatively new posters is what the issue is and I think selzer is right
about these issues.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Jack's Dad said:


> I still wonder about that. I think though that the manner of treating especially relatively new posters is what the issue is and I think selzer is right
> about these issues.


Maybe. I think most are here for validation and not much else, but that's just my opinion. In the end, they're gone as quickly as they came. 

Maybe it's because they think we're a bunch of snobs. Maybe they just don't care what strangers have to say. Who knows, everyone's different.


----------



## DaniFani

mycobraracr said:


> People can start gaining experience and knowledge of the breed without breeding. I will be a breeder at some point. I'm not going to start by throwing dogs together. I have been studying the breed for a while now. I'm active with my current dogs in three different venues. I am friends with multiple reputable breeders that share their knowledge with me. That's how people should start. *Honestly I'm getting sick of the "everyone has to start somewhere" crap. Yes, everyone does need to start somewhere. Like maybe having some knowledge of the breed.*
> 
> Oh and this wasn't directed specifically at you even though I quoted you. I have been wanting to say that for a while and your post just gave me the opportunity haha.


Thank you!!! And Myco, I love reading your posts and experiences. I think you will make a very responsible breeder someday! Cheers


----------



## DJ BEN

I think that if you want to offer advice on this particular question, but you are worried that the OP will get their feelings hurt (or fill like you are being rude to them) than I would suggest that you private message the person and exchange email addresses and phone numbers, so that they can here for themselves how genuine and compassionate you are. After all, if really want to help, and the last thing you want is to seem rude, and hurt people's feelings, than the only way to do that is talk on the phone. I think those that really care about the breed will do whatever it takes to find a way to converse with people to make them fell as comfortable as possible so that they can get their points across. I always try to respond to people that seem to be crying for help when they are doing something on this thread like trying to get help in buying one of these magnificant German Shepherds, and they don't know where to begin. Taking people's feelings into consideration is always priority for me because of my line of work. When my family and I bought our first GSD, I went shopping around with different breeders, and as much as I appreciate the ones that would just go on about the breed, what I did not appreciate is the venting from past experiences they had with terrible buyers. One kept me on the phone for almost 2 hours, and we never got to the point of whether or not she would consider us as a potential buyer because of how lost she got in her rant about negative experiences. By talking to her on the phone, I was at least able to tell that she lacked customer service skills as remarkable as her dogs are. Exchange numbers when you are worried about offending someone on this thread that's my advice.


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## Merciel

Jack's Dad said:


> I believe face to face the questioning would be different if it was a neighbor, friend or relative.


That's for sure. I'd be a lot meaner and I'd be able to use profanity.


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## Magwart

Merciel said:


> That's for sure. I'd be a lot meaner and I'd be able to use profanity.



LOL. I adore your posts.


----------



## selzer

The thing is, it isn't against any law to let your dog breed. Even mixed-breed dogs, and dogs without papers, dogs that are pets, untrained dogs, dogs that are way over the standard in height and weight, dogs with serious faults, or medical conditions.

People are allowed to breed ANY dog to ANY dog. 

What use is profanity, but to totally turn that person off? We can move a person to do some checks before breeding. We can move someone to look at the pedigrees of the prospective sire and dam. We can move people to consider the risks of whelping, and the difficulty of finding good homes. 

And all of that goes kaput when someone gets on there and says, "you horrible idiot, you're a back yard breeder, and I hope your bitch dies and it will be all your fault if she does." I know that no one has actually said that for quite a while, but you get the picture. 

I can understand why a lot of people just give up and stop posting on such questions. Because even when you take the time to answer the questions, and try to move the individual to make a better informed decision about their dog/bitch, it all just goes for naught when people start the feeding frenzy. 

Group-think happens on this site like crazy. And a post that starts "should I breed..." is like banging the bell from the prison walls to call the sharks to pitch the dead bodies to -- Pappillon, or Count of Monte Cristo. Once one person gets on there and posts how much of a BYB they think the individual is, and the great lightning bolts from the Mod Squad does not strike them banned immediately, post after post follows suit. 

Only if someone comes on, and says, "hang on, the world will not come to a crashing halt if this guy breeds the dog" is there any diversion, usually to attack the person with the crappy attitude that stuck up for the future byb-er. 

You really can catch more flies with honey, and being harsh or using profanity, just makes people want to prove you wrong, it makes people angry and stubborn. Maybe it stops one person from doing exactly what they were going to do, maybe. But it eggs on most of the people.


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## carmspack

I just happen to have a comprehensive set of Reviews , for free, if anyone is interested. 
Might be interesting to see where we have been , and where we are heading. US , and German equivalent.

Theory before practice . YES - "People can start gaining experience and knowledge of the breed without breeding. I will be a breeder at some point. I'm not going to start by throwing dogs together. I have been studying the breed for a while now. I'm active with my current dogs in three different venues. I am friends with multiple reputable breeders that share their knowledge with me. That's how people should start. Honestly I'm getting sick of the "everyone has to start somewhere" crap. Yes, everyone does need to start somewhere. Like maybe having some knowledge of the breed."

Being utterly new is one thing . Then you can ask , have you considered this and that and have x rays been done and this and that . But honestly when a person is well ensconced with years and years of breeding and is still clueless -- that is entirely another. Funny how elements of a pedigree are important such as such great fancy famous dog in the , wait let me get my telescope, far distant past that keeps getting dredged up for "the sale" to the well meaning but even less informed buyer who is drunk on puppy breath and cuteness .

Breeding is man's artificial selection for traits and characteristics , that are of benefit to "us". Otherwise why not have doggies breeding freely by their choice which is a simple lucky " right time right place" , then choose from the offspring . Everything else is more or less nature ,midwifery. In fact breeding and whelping should not , as a drive, deteriorate to the point where "that" much assistance is necessary. Maybe here we have taken a step back . At least not in GSD . Pugs and breeds with distorted anatomy I can understand the need .

Then for our benefit , to make the dog useful and adjusted , we socialize , not missing those important time periods where the dog is able to bond --- or else become one of those wild street dogs.

YES " They don't like what they hear and are too sensitive for a reality check" that is why I said on a certain recent post , agreeing with a member (their input) it takes guts to ask questions , (my input) and it takes guts to hear the answers. See it all the time on the talent shows where some truly horrible singer/dancer cusses out the respected agent/ signer / producer who knows nothing , and he'll show him --- Listen when someone is trying to help . Learn and grow. Some do and in the second attempt they are tough competition. If you take a dog into the ring and the judge tells you your dog lacks angulation and is oversize you examine the critique and learn and enter with a better specimen. You don't tell that judge and the next and the next that they are all blind or paid off .

Question -- who would you buy a pup from . What as a buyer do you expect .


----------



## carmspack

"I think that if you want to offer advice on this particular question, but you are worried that the OP will get their feelings hurt (or fill like you are being rude to them) than I would suggest that you private message the person and exchange email addresses and phone numbers, so that they can here for themselves how genuine and compassionate you are. After all, if really want to help, and the last thing you want is to seem rude, and hurt people's feelings, than the only way to do that is talk on the phone."

sounds like mushrooms , hidden in the dark --- ideas need exposure to the sunlight , without fear , to be accepted or challenged . corrected or supported . I know I was asked to PM a poster --- but I can stand to have anything I have to say exposed -- I did not , will not use PM in that manner . Transparent . You know where I stand .


----------



## Sunflowers

selzer said:


> What use is profanity, but to totally turn that person off?
> 
> You really can catch more flies with honey, and being harsh or using profanity, just makes people want to prove you wrong,


Oh, for Pete's sake, no one advocated using profanity. I do believe Merciel was trying to inject some humor into this thread... as was I, with my pounding comment. 

If when people come here and ask a question, any question, members need to sit there and sprinkle their replies with sugar and spice and everything nice, or else refrain from answering because the OP might not like what he or she hears, then this ceases to be a forum.

Speaking of forums, this one is tame compared to what I have seen elsewhere on dog forums.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I do agree with Carmen "it takes guts to ask a question and it takes guts to hear the answer".

I honestly don't know why some get 'offended' from hearing something from a person that is on the other side of the screen and probably will never even meet this person or have that person impact their lives. Altho there is a way to 'say it'. And I don't mean sugar coating or saying what 'they' want to hear.

It's the internet, I also agree, no matter what 'one' says, in the end the poster is going to do whatever it is THEY want, some come here for validation when they don't get it they get mad.

It's hard to inflect 'tone' when posting, people need to remember that. (I can be just as guilty!)


----------



## Sunflowers

JakodaCD OA said:


> I honestly don't know why some get 'offended' from hearing something from a person that is on the other side of the screen )




Because they came wanting to be supported, and that is it. 

They do not truly want information or an education, they want to be applauded and accepted. People hate being told they are wrong, or that they are doing something wrong. I also think maturity level plays a large part in how people interpret things. 

I do believe a few people have been turned away from breeding because of what was said here, and that is good. Perhaps many more lurk, and changed their minds without ever posting a single word here. That is good, too.

At the end of the day, all people can do is voice their opinions and share their knowledge. 
What others do with it is up to them.


----------



## Jack's Dad

I guess we all have a different idea about what is "sugar coating something" or just being rude.

Sunflowers. If I want knowledge about breeding I will listen to Chris, Lee, Carmen, Sue, other Sue, Robin, Cliff, Vandal, Tim, Lisa, and others. 

Most of the interrogators are not breeders but just have an opinion about what one should be.

Opinions are fine as long as the person receiving them knows that's what they are but some speak with great authority and knowledge where there is none.


----------



## Freestep

Jack's Dad said:


> Opinions are fine as long as the person receiving them knows that's what they are but some speak with great authority and knowledge where there is none.


I don't have to BE a breeder to have some knowledge about the plight of poorly-bred dogs and what happens to them. I work with dogs every day and I see the fallout of BYB type breeding every day. I'm a groomer, but I've also volunteered in shelters, I've worked with rescues, I've fostered dogs, I've worked in veterinary medicine, I've euthanized animals myself. It's not cute or fun to bring a litter of indiscriminately-bred puppies into the world when you look at the big picture, and one doesn't have to be a breeder or have great authority in the breed to know that. All it takes is to open one's eyes.


----------



## Jax08

So the answer to your question, Carla, is that you should never respond to a thread about breeding. You are only qualified to answer questions on grooming. So unless a person is a professional in the field that the question is related too, regardless of personal experience that might be relevant to the post, then a person should just shrug their shoulders and walk away. 

That means no answering health questions unless you are a vet, no answering breeding questions unless you are a breeder, no answering training questions unless you are a trainer.

I'm not any of those so I'm headed for the Chat area and see if there is anything I'm qualified to comment on over there.


----------



## Sunflowers

Jack's Dad said:


> Sunflowers. If I want knowledge about breeding I will listen to Chris, Lee, Carmen, Sue, other Sue, Robin, Cliff, Vandal, Tim, Lisa, and others.


You only want to hear from those people, yes. 
Because you already know what is the breed standard, and all the basics. 

It doesn't take a breeding professional to spot someone who hasn't the slightest clue. 

You don't have to be an Indy car racer to spot someone who barely has their learner's permit, yet wants to head directly to the Grand Prix.



Jack's Dad said:


> Opinions are fine as long as the person receiving them knows that's what they are but some speak with great authority and knowledge where there is none.



With all due respect-- how do you know this? 
How can you possibly know "where there is none?"


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

I have my standard "I want to breed" reply saved in a Word document. I use it for ANYONE that says "I want to breed". It talks about taking a critical look at your dog to determine if they will be a good addition to the GSD gene pool, the benefits of having health, temperament and working certificates and what goes into breeding and whelping puppies.

I feel a factual, non-emotional response will be received better than the 'OMG - don't you know how many dogs die each year ...' type responses.

You can lead a person to information but you cannot MAKE them take it.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Freestep said:


> I don't have to BE a breeder to have some knowledge about the plight of poorly-bred dogs and what happens to them. I work with dogs every day and I see the fallout of BYB type breeding every day. I'm a groomer, but I've also volunteered in shelters, I've worked with rescues, I've fostered dogs, I've worked in veterinary medicine, I've euthanized animals myself. It's not cute or fun to bring a litter of indiscriminately-bred puppies into the world when you look at the big picture, and one doesn't have to be a breeder or have great authority in the breed to know that. All it takes is to open one's eyes.


I knew this thread would go full cycle. Now we are back to all the animals in shelters and rescues dying.
If it makes people feel better to think they are putting a finger in the **** then continue the crusade.

My local Craigs List and everyone elses are full of legally produced dogs of every imaginable breed and mix. Working over one person at a time on this forum will accomplish nothing but to turn people off of the board.
How many people are lurking or just cringing at those threads when they realize their beloved dog was a mistake by some BYB.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Sunflowers said:


> You only want to hear from those people, yes.
> Because you already know what is the breed standard, and all the basics.
> 
> It doesn't take a breeding professional to spot someone who hasn't the slightest clue.
> 
> You don't have to be an Indy car racer to spot someone who barely has their learner's permit, yet wants to head directly to the Grand Prix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *With all due respect-- how do you know this?
> How can you possibly know "where there is none?"*


*
*
I don't know this with every poster and neither does the person on the receiving end of the questioning, which was my point. I don't know for certain that Cliff has worked, trained, and bred dogs either but I believe so. Never met him personally.


----------



## Sunflowers

Jack's Dad said:


> [/B]
> I don't know this with every poster and neither does the person on the receiving end of the questioning, which was my point.


Exactly.
Which is why you can't declare that everyone on here who isn't a professional breeder has zero knowledge, and has no right to say anything. 

As far as realizing that a pet is from a mill or a BYB, good! 
A person can love the current pet, but maybe next time, he or she won't support that BYB. 

I disagree with refusing to criticize anything, this day and age. If people are not allowed to point out flaws, we sink into mediocrity, and that does not only apply to breeding dogs.


----------



## Freestep

selzer said:


> Only if someone comes on, and says, "hang on, the world will not come to a crashing halt if this guy breeds the dog" is there any diversion, usually to attack the person with the crappy attitude that stuck up for the future byb-er.


This is the problem. Every Joe Public who wants to breed his dog thinks the world will not come to a crashing halt if he does so. "It's just ONE litter, what's the harm? ONE litter will not throw the entire shelter system into chaos!" You get a million people thinking that, and you see what happens. Because it is happening right now, and will continue to happen until people get the big picture. Telling one person that one litter won't make a difference is not just telling ONE person--on a public Internet forum, it's telling hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people.

Selzer, honestly, you ought to volunteer at a shelter during puppy/kitten season and see it for yourself. You will see entire litters being dropped off day after day after day, when there is no room for them. You will see adolescent puppies that someone bred, bought and sold from "just one litter", day after day after day, until you want to scream. You can blame the puppy buyers who bought on a whim, but where did they get that puppy? It likely wasn't from a reputable breeder, because a reputable breeder will screen their buyers and take puppies back when they are no longer wanted. Usually it's some dolt who picked up a cute puppy on a whim, because cute puppies are bred and born by BYBs and given away or sold outside Wal-Mart or the flea market or craigslist by the millions--they are everywhere, dime a dozen, and so their perceived value is very low. When one grows up and stops being cute, there is another one right around the corner. They are considered disposable. Part of that is on the buyers being irresponsible, yes, but if everyone and his cousin weren't breeding litters, there wouldn't be another cute, disposable puppy around every corner. 



> You really can catch more flies with honey, and being harsh or using profanity, just makes people want to prove you wrong, it makes people angry and stubborn.


That is why I started this thread. I want to know the recipe for success in talking BYBs out of breeding, or at least showing them there's another way to do things, breeding for the right reasons and doing it responsibly and ethically.


----------



## Freestep

Jack's Dad said:


> I knew this thread would go full cycle. Now we are back to all the animals in shelters and rescues dying.
> If it makes people feel better to think they are putting a finger in the **** then continue the crusade.
> 
> My local Craigs List and everyone elses are full of legally produced dogs of every imaginable breed and mix. Working over one person at a time on this forum will accomplish nothing but to turn people off of the board.


So what do YOU think is the "correct" way to reply to people wanting to breed their dog? Should we simply say nothing? Let only the breeders answer?

Maybe talking ONE person out of breeding won't make a difference, you might be right. In which case it is pointless and we ought to give it up. Is that what you are saying?


----------



## Freestep

Jax08 said:


> So the answer to your question, Carla, is that you should never respond to a thread about breeding. You are only qualified to answer questions on grooming.


Heh. Just to make myself feel useful, I've suggested starting a "Grooming" forum. But since it has not yet been created, and I'm not a vet, breeder, trainer or anything else, I suppose I should shut up.


----------



## Jax08

~sigh~ We'll always have the picture threads! Who is NOT qualified to say "He's beautiful!" lol


----------



## Magwart

Jack's Dad said:


> How many people are lurking or just cringing at those threads when they realize their beloved dog was a mistake by some BYB.


There have been many, many people who have joined and posted something to the effect that they have and love their BYB pet but they've learned from the forum, and they will do more research for their next dog.

If we end up with a situation where the end result is a few thousand lurkers decide to either adopt a rescue or do the research and pay what it costs to get a truly well bred pup, this forum will have accomplished something worthwhile.

Oh, and does the fact that those of us who aren't breeders are not "allowed" to say anything discouraging to proto-BYB-in-the-making mean that people who know nothing about how rescues work and have never rescued a dog are no longer "allowed" to bash rescues on the rescue threads and describe their _perception_ as outsiders about how awful, mean, demanding, over-priced, invasive, judgmental or whatever else every breed rescue _allegedly_ is? We've had a lot of that in the past year too. Or is it still open-season on opinions, regardless of qualification, on rescue issues? The "rules" are confusing.


----------



## Magwart

Jax08 said:


> ~sigh~ We'll always have the picture threads! Who is NOT qualified to say "He's beautiful!" lol


Well if YOU don't have a beautiful dog YOURSELF, clearly you have no business commenting on whether someone else does. LOL.


----------



## Jax08

Magwart said:


> Well if YOU don't have a beautiful dog YOURSELF, clearly you have no business commenting on whether someone else does. LOL.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...completely subjective! lol


----------



## Jack's Dad

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I have my standard "I want to breed" reply saved in a Word document. I use it for ANYONE that says "I want to breed". It talks about taking a critical look at your dog to determine if they will be a good addition to the GSD gene pool, the benefits of having health, temperament and working certificates and what goes into breeding and whelping puppies.
> 
> I feel a factual, non-emotional response will be received better than the 'OMG - don't you know how many dogs die each year ...' type responses.
> 
> You can lead a person to information but you cannot MAKE them take it.


I think this is a reasonable approach. Thanks.

On this other stuff about not posting because you are not a breeder, groomer, trainer etc.... This is just going off into Sillyville. It's goofy and no one said that. As long as it is within board rules anyone can post anything on any forum in any thread they want to.

Yes I don't need to be a Supreme Court Justice to have an opinion on laws that will affect me.

I thought this was supposed to be about how to treat someone who posts with respect and still get your point across but I guess not.

Magwart, again we all see things differently. I wonder about those who lurk and think we are all crazy and never join but go off and tell their friends about the crazy GSD people.


----------



## Merciel

Jack's Dad said:


> I knew this thread would go full cycle. Now we are back to all the animals in shelters and rescues dying.
> If it makes people feel better to think they are putting a finger in the **** then continue the crusade.


This is the worst, laziest, most infuriating attitude.

edit: and I keep thinking I should mitigate that, but you know what, no, I'm gonna stick with it. I will say that I am not calling you as a person those things. But the _attitude_ is why things don't get done. "I can't fix everything so I'm gonna do nothing."


----------



## gsdsar

I think that each thread should be looked at individually. 

A thread that is started as "should I breed my dog?" Should be answered with all the information about proper genetic testing, titles, yadda yadda

A thread that ask a specific question, " if I breed my black dog to a white dog will I get Black and Tans". Should be answered with " Maybe" and a explanation of the masking gene and some reference material links. What is answered with on this board is " why are breeding? What is the pedigree? What health clearances? Do you know how many unwanted puppies they are? You are ruining the breed? Your dog may die? " none of which pertains to the OP question and feels accusatory. 

Then if we get REALLY lucky, some one googles them, finds their website, or their digs pedigree, posts it, or starts ripping apart everything about it. Including dogs that were not even part of the original question. Of course, when the OP gets offended and defensive, and won't answer a question about something irrelevant to the question, the wolves gather and it turns into a battle of " I am just curious, or its a simple question, or I don't understand why you won't give me the answer I want( even though you have not given the answer they want). 

It's a public board. But some things are NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. And to do RESEARCH on a poster and then bring in what you find, it's wrong, it's attacking. It's bullying at it finest. All cloaked behind " it's what's best for the breed, and I just love the breed so much, if they can't handle it they should not have posted to a public forum. " but its still bullying. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## sitstay

Jack's Dad said:


> I guess we all have a different idea about what is "sugar coating something" or just being rude.
> 
> Sunflowers. If I want knowledge about breeding I will listen to ...


Not only do we all have a different idea about what is "sugar coating something" or just being rude, but it appears we all have different ideas of who is knowledgeable about breeding. Jack's Dad, I consider one of your listed breeders to be a joke and free with advice that can be downright dangerous. Does that mean your opinion is invalid? Or mine is invalid? 

How does that work, exactly? Who gets to decide? 
Sheilah


----------



## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> On this other stuff about not posting because you are not a breeder, groomer, trainer etc.... This is just going off into Sillyville. It's goofy and no one said that. As long as it is within board rules anyone can post anything on any forum in any thread they want to.


Right. :thumbup: And on that note....


----------



## Jack's Dad

gsdsar said:


> I think that each thread should be looked at individually.
> 
> A thread that is started as "should I breed my dog?" Should be answered with all the information about proper genetic testing, titles, yadda yadda
> 
> A thread that ask a specific question, " if I breed my black dog to a white dog will I get Black and Tans". Should be answered with " Maybe" and a explanation of the masking gene and some reference material links. What is answered with on this board is " why are breeding? What is the pedigree? What health clearances? Do you know how many unwanted puppies they are? You are ruining the breed? Your dog may die? " none of which pertains to the OP question and feels accusatory.
> 
> Then if we get REALLY lucky, some one googles them, finds their website, or their digs pedigree, posts it, or starts ripping apart everything about it. Including dogs that were not even part of the original question. Of course, when the OP gets offended and defensive, and won't answer a question about something irrelevant to the question, the wolves gather and it turns into a battle of " I am just curious, or its a simple question, or I don't understand why you won't give me the answer I want( even though you have not given the answer they want).
> 
> It's a public board. But some things are NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. And to do RESEARCH on a poster and then bring in what you find, it's wrong, it's attacking. It's bullying at it finest. All cloaked behind " it's what's best for the breed, and I just love the breed so much, if they can't handle it they should not have posted to a public forum. " but its still bullying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Could not have said it better. Thanks 

Sheilah. Well since I don't know but one of them personally we can certainly have different opinions but again now we are back to opinions.
Heck maybe a couple of them aren't breeders at all but posting stuff from the funny farm. I really don't know


----------



## Sunflowers

Jack's Dad said:


> I think this is a reasonable approach. Thanks.
> 
> On this other stuff about not posting because you are not a breeder, groomer, trainer etc.... This is just going off into Sillyville. It's goofy and no one said that. As long as it is within board rules anyone can post anything on any forum in any thread they want to.
> 
> Yes I don't need to be a Supreme Court Justice to have an opinion on laws that will affect me.
> 
> I thought this was supposed to be about how to treat someone who posts with respect and still get your point across but I guess not.
> 
> le.


Glad you now think this is Sillyville. 
Because it was said on another thread, and implied, as well.
And yes, this was supposed to be about how to treat someone who posts with respect and still get your point across, but then you said that if you want breeding advice you will listen to only a few breeders you listed.

I like you, Jack's dad, but at this point I'm honestly confused about what your opinion truly is.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Sunflowers said:


> Glad you now think this is Sillyville.
> Because it was said on another thread, and implied, as well.
> And yes, this was supposed to be about how to treat someone who posts with respect and still get your point across, but then you said that if you want breeding advice you will listen to only a few breeders you listed.
> 
> I like you, Jack's dad, but at this point I'm honestly confused about what your opinion truly is.


It's not complex, some seem to go to extremes over the smallest inference.
Such as I guess you can only post in the non existent groomer thread since you are not a breeder, Sillyville.

Who I choose to listen to on any subject is my choice but someone who is relatively new won't be able to discern that for quite awhile. So the advice they are receiving could be horrible and coming from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.
That is not to say that there aren't very big differences on almost anything dog related by even knowledgeable posters.

I like you too and Sit Stay and Freestep and Jax08 and I are tight I think but we don't have to agree on everything.

Now as for Merceil. I don't have a lazy attitude, I'm not involved in rescue and don't plan to be. I have my own battles to wage but not in the dog world. So to argue that point would be like arguing which charity is best.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Jack's Dad said:


> So the advice they are receiving could be horrible and coming from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.


If that happens, they're usually pretty quick to get called out on it and corrected. Especially in a thread that gets as much traffic as these "should i breed" threads.


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## Merciel

Jack's Dad said:


> Now as for Merceil. I don't have a lazy attitude, I'm not involved in rescue and don't plan to be.


Yeah, you do. It's lazy and it's fatalistic and it helps nothing. I saw a little of it in the "what are the solutions?" thread and here it is popping up again.

What's the point of telling people not to breed one litter when there are 10 others being sold by the side of the road? The _point_ is, we're preventing those 10 litters from becoming 11. We're preventing the 50 puppies who are going to die in that shelter this week from becoming 60. We are trying to save four or six or ten fuzzy, transient, fragile little lives. _That's_ the point.

You change the world one person at a time. It is ALWAYS worth reaching that one person, if you can. Always. Because one person means four or six or ten puppies. Or more.

I'm calling you out on it because while it's completely, totally fine for you to not be interested or involved in rescue, what is NOT fine to me is implying that anybody who _does_ care and _is_ trying is just whistling in the wind and wasting their time.


----------



## Jack's Dad

> I'm calling you out on it because while it's completely, totally fine for you to not be interested or involved in rescue, what is NOT fine to me is implying that anybody who _does_ care and _is_ trying is just whistling in the wind and wasting their time.


That's your interpretation, which doesn't surprise me. It's incorrect and I don't need you, a stranger telling me what my responsibilities are. 

I'm not here to argue about rescue. It is a worthy thing to do but some have gone around the bend. IMO


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## cliffson1

@Jacks Dad......gracefully exit this.....smh!


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## Blanketback

Freestep said:


> Sure, if a well-known and well-respected breeder is asking for thoughts on a particular stud, that's one thing.


Are you _seriously_ suggesting that "well-known" or "well-respected" breeders just start threads, for this purpose? LOL!!! 



Freestep said:


> When I start getting too many, I sell them on craigslist...


And there you have it. Why do you think people can so easily wash their hands of the offspring? Because it's easy, that's why. 



Merciel said:


> You change the world one person at a time.


Yep. Every tiny thing you do to help, does help. But the "how do we stop the flow of unwanted animals" question is just as overwhelming as the "how do we stop world hunger" question. It's impossible to snap your finger and make it vanish, unfortunately.


----------



## Freestep

Blanketback said:


> And there you have it. Why do you think people can so easily wash their hands of the offspring? Because it's easy, that's why.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that agricultural livestock and pets are the same thing?

Excess livestock animals can be eaten, so there will never be an overpopulation of them unless everyone in the world goes vegan.


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## DaniFani

Jack's Dad said:


> I think this is a reasonable approach. Thanks.
> 
> On this other stuff about not posting because you are not a breeder, groomer, trainer etc.... This is just going off into Sillyville. It's goofy and no one said that. As long as it is within board rules anyone can post anything on any forum in any thread they want to.
> 
> Yes I don't need to be a Supreme Court Justice to have an opinion on laws that will affect me.
> 
> I thought this was supposed to be about how to treat someone who posts with respect and still get your point across but I guess not.
> 
> Magwart, again we all see things differently. I wonder about those who lurk and think we are all crazy and never join but go off and tell their friends about the crazy GSD people.


Are you kidding? I'm an active poster and I *definitely* tell my friends about all you crazy GSD people!! It doesn't take a "lurker" to do that!! lol


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## Blanketback

Freestep, I'm saying that some people have the same attitude towards their dogs (or cats, rats, etc) as you do towards agricultural animals. They breed them and then they get rid of the offspring and that's the end of it. It sounds callous, but that's how it is.


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## marbury

Just for scope and comparison, I think that far more people just have litters because they don't bother to spay their females than people that indiscriminately breed intentionally for profit. It's not callous then either; they're just solving a problem that nature handed them because in their microculture it's common. Instead of paying $65 at a clinic or even bothering to put their yard dog in their car and bringing them into a free spay event they are surprised one day when mom is under the house nursing a litter, toss out more Dog Chow when they're old enough to eat, and whatever survives gets put on CL for a few bucks or FTGH to get them out of the yard. Kind of like dealing with a really excessive twice-a-year menstrual period for their dog, except instead of just some bleeding they get puppies. Oh well. That's just how things are done some places. It's sad, but it's happening all over. In our area it is definitively pitbulls and pit mixes.

Now of course those are not the folks that would ever, EVER find their way here. But there are many 'reasons' for people to end up with a litter. It's not necessarily to be callous or to treat them like livestock animals.


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## marbury

Totally related but unrelated, here's a sample topic that I just replied to:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/312050-15-week-male-gsd-one-testicle.html

I'll use my response to OP as an example. OP asked a question, which I answered to the best of my knowledge from my place of work (vet). OP mentioned wanting to use the pup as a stud one day. Instead of descending upon the poor soul and saying "NO STUD OMG" I tried my best to indirectly encourage the OP in a direction of responsibility.

Is it perfect? Heck no!! I have years and years to go before I'm Selzer-level. But I find it fair and I did not "nod and smile". That's what I would hope to consider a 'fair and balanced' approach to dealing with 'a potential breeder'. Totally open to discourse on the subject.


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## AngelaA6

marbury said:


> Totally related but unrelated, here's a sample topic that I just replied to:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/312050-15-week-male-gsd-one-testicle.html
> 
> I'll use my response to OP as an example. OP asked a question, which I answered to the best of my knowledge from my place of work (vet). OP mentioned wanting to use the pup as a stud one day. Instead of descending upon the poor soul and saying "NO STUD OMG" I tried my best to indirectly encourage the OP in a direction of responsibility.
> 
> Is it perfect? Heck no!! I have years and years to go before I'm Selzer-level. But I find it fair and I did not "nod and smile". That's what I would hope to consider a 'fair and balanced' approach to dealing with 'a potential breeder'. Totally open to discourse on the subject.



I don't know anything on breeding (also have no interest in breeding) so I just don't post and leave it to you guys that have had experience.:blush:


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## Merciel

It feels a little bit like falling up a mental Escher staircase to comment on the deconstruction of a post in a thread that's still active, but fwiw I think you did a really good job.


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## holland

gsdsar said:


> I think that each thread should be looked at individually.
> 
> A thread that is started as "should I breed my dog?" Should be answered with all the information about proper genetic testing, titles, yadda yadda
> 
> A thread that ask a specific question, " if I breed my black dog to a white dog will I get Black and Tans". Should be answered with " Maybe" and a explanation of the masking gene and some reference material links. What is answered with on this board is " why are breeding? What is the pedigree? What health clearances? Do you know how many unwanted puppies they are? You are ruining the breed? Your dog may die? " none of which pertains to the OP question and feels accusatory.
> 
> Then if we get REALLY lucky, some one googles them, finds their website, or their digs pedigree, posts it, or starts ripping apart everything about it. Including dogs that were not even part of the original question. Of course, when the OP gets offended and defensive, and won't answer a question about something irrelevant to the question, the wolves gather and it turns into a battle of " I am just curious, or its a simple question, or I don't understand why you won't give me the answer I want( even though you have not given the answer they want).
> 
> It's a public board. But some things are NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. And to do RESEARCH on a poster and then bring in what you find, it's wrong, it's attacking. It's bullying at it finest. All cloaked behind " it's what's best for the breed, and I just love the breed so much, if they can't handle it they should not have posted to a public forum. " but its still bullying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 YES!!!!!! But interestingly the moderators have no problem with it and the person who did it does not post pedigrees on her website


----------



## DaniFani

marbury said:


> Totally related but unrelated, here's a sample topic that I just replied to:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/312050-15-week-male-gsd-one-testicle.html
> 
> I'll use my response to OP as an example. OP asked a question, which I answered to the best of my knowledge from my place of work (vet). OP mentioned wanting to use the pup as a stud one day. Instead of descending upon the poor soul and saying "NO STUD OMG" I tried my best to indirectly encourage the OP in a direction of responsibility.
> 
> Is it perfect? Heck no!! I have years and years to go before I'm Selzer-level. But I find it fair and I did not "nod and smile". That's what I would hope to consider a 'fair and balanced' approach to dealing with 'a potential breeder'. Totally open to discourse on the subject.


"And let us know how his testicle comes along" that one got a chuckle out of me


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## carmspack

hi Holland . Yes I do ask for pedigrees --- all the time .
if you are referring to me with this " who did it does not post pedigrees on her website" then know this. I do not do anything to my web site . As far as pedigrees who do you want to know about . Just about every post I have , whether it is about tracking, genetic obedience, answers to "buffy badge on my collar" etc etc -- will voluntarily have pedigrees provided - many in one thread --

sample http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/153627-carmspack-sumo-vinny.html (Sumo is sire of Gus)


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## holland

Its ok Carmen I am not looking for a dog


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## holland

...and yes I was referring to you


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## carmspack

so then you have your answer --- I don't hide behind an anonymous name --- it's all there . pedigrees are not posted because any one that is interested will make contact and then the pedigrees raison d'etre , will be explained at length providing a history of the genetics going back and sideways and a vision of what is to be expected. The names don't mean anything . The plan and results do.


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## JakodaCD OA

holland, I'd like you to point out specific posts where 'us moderators' let members "bully" someone else? 

We don't police every single topic or thread here, we rely on members to hit that little notify button below your signature and let us know something should be checked out.

And who cares if one doesn't post pedigrees on their website? IF one wants to know they can always email the person I would think...

Again, you have a problem with "bullying" its real easy hit the notify button. If you don't like how us 'mods' moderate, well there are lots of other forums out there.


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## FlyAway

All breeders have to start someplace. It's best to start with a mentor, but maybe that's not available in the requestor's area. Books are available. I see this one looks interesting. May be a good one to recommend. 

Amazon.com: The Complete Book of Dog Breeding (0027011738876): Dan Rice D.V.M.: Books

I attended a seminar by Liz Hansen the Canine DNA researcher at the University if Missouri. It really gets you thinking about how difficult breeding really is. 

Canine Genetic Diseases Network


----------



## selzer

Freestep said:


> This is the problem. Every Joe Public who wants to breed his dog thinks the world will not come to a crashing halt if he does so. "It's just ONE litter, what's the harm? ONE litter will not throw the entire shelter system into chaos!" You get a million people thinking that, and you see what happens. Because it is happening right now, and will continue to happen until people get the big picture. Telling one person that one litter won't make a difference is not just telling ONE person--on a public Internet forum, it's telling hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people.
> 
> Selzer, honestly, you ought to volunteer at a shelter during puppy/kitten season and see it for yourself. You will see entire litters being dropped off day after day after day, when there is no room for them. You will see adolescent puppies that someone bred, bought and sold from "just one litter", day after day after day, until you want to scream. You can blame the puppy buyers who bought on a whim, but where did they get that puppy? It likely wasn't from a reputable breeder, because a reputable breeder will screen their buyers and take puppies back when they are no longer wanted. Usually it's some dolt who picked up a cute puppy on a whim, because cute puppies are bred and born by BYBs and given away or sold outside Wal-Mart or the flea market or craigslist by the millions--they are everywhere, dime a dozen, and so their perceived value is very low. When one grows up and stops being cute, there is another one right around the corner. They are considered disposable. Part of that is on the buyers being irresponsible, yes, but if everyone and his cousin weren't breeding litters, there wouldn't be another cute, disposable puppy around every corner.
> 
> 
> 
> That is why I started this thread. I want to know the recipe for success in talking BYBs out of breeding, or at least showing them there's another way to do things, breeding for the right reasons and doing it responsibly and ethically.


If we held the secret of how to produce a litter of puppies, and without it, no puppies would ever be whelped, than guarding that secret with everything in us would make all the sense in the world. 

Everyone coming on this site with a breeding question is actually looking for knowledge with which to make a better decision. Maybe it is better for these people to go away empty, and breed the litters that they had considered, and maybe it is better for them to go away with a little more knowledge, and make a little better decision, and hopefully learn from that and do even better, the next go around. 

The fact is though, it does not take a rocket scientist to breed, whelp, and raise a litter. Anyone can. It is very unlikely that their bitch will die, and probably they will have little trouble selling the puppies for cheap. Most of those puppies will go to homes that will love them and care for them. LOTS of the dogs on this site have come directly from breeders just like this. And those dogs are loved and have never set paw into a pound, shelter or rescue. 

By encouraging people rather than discouraging people, maybe they will do some health checks on their dogs prior to breeding. Maybe they will require more from the dog or bitch they are breeding to. Maybe they will spend more time and energy on the puppies. Maybe they will screen the buyers better. Maybe they will offer to take back puppies at any time. 

Maybe the people will join the site, and learn about the many issues facing the breed and dogs in general. Maybe by the time their bitch goes into heat again, they will hold a different perspective about breeding. Maybe they will be handing out the pitch forks and leading the charge against other breeder-wannabes. And maybe, like new budding Christians, someone will need to tell them that they can't make converts by crashing a two-by-four over the person's head.

Ah well, I think your shelter plan would be a huge fail on me. After all, one of the ladies volunteering over there, while she would never buy a dog from a breeder, bought her GSD puppy from the pet store in the mall in Erie. I expect learning about the plight of puppies the world over is not what is learned in the Ashtabula shelter.


----------



## sitstay

selzer said:


> If we held the secret of how to produce a litter of puppies, and without it, no puppies would ever be whelped, than guarding that secret with everything in us would make all the sense in the world.
> 
> Everyone coming on this site with a breeding question is actually looking for knowledge with which to make a better decision. Maybe it is better for these people to go away empty, and breed the litters that they had considered, and maybe it is better for them to go away with a little more knowledge, and make a little better decision, and hopefully learn from that and do even better, the next go around.
> 
> The fact is though, it does not take a rocket scientist to breed, whelp, and raise a litter. Anyone can. It is very unlikely that their bitch will die, and probably they will have little trouble selling the puppies for cheap. Most of those puppies will go to homes that will love them and care for them. LOTS of the dogs on this site have come directly from breeders just like this. And those dogs are loved and have never set paw into a pound, shelter or rescue.
> 
> By encouraging people rather than discouraging people, maybe they will do some health checks on their dogs prior to breeding. Maybe they will require more from the dog or bitch they are breeding to. Maybe they will spend more time and energy on the puppies. Maybe they will screen the buyers better. Maybe they will offer to take back puppies at any time.
> 
> Maybe the people will join the site, and learn about the many issues facing the breed and dogs in general. Maybe by the time their bitch goes into heat again, they will hold a different perspective about breeding. Maybe they will be handing out the pitch forks and leading the charge against other breeder-wannabes. And maybe, like new budding Christians, someone will need to tell them that they can't make converts by crashing a two-by-four over the person's head.
> 
> Ah well, I think your shelter plan would be a huge fail on me. After all, one of the ladies volunteering over there, while she would never buy a dog from a breeder, bought her GSD puppy from the pet store in the mall in Erie. I expect learning about the plight of puppies the world over is not what is learned in the Ashtabula shelter.


I disagree with just about everything you said, Sue.
Sheilah


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## selzer

sit said:


> I disagree with just about everything you said, Sue.
> Sheilah


Good for you, I hope that saying that has made you feel all warm and fuzzy for the rest of the day.


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## sitstay

selzer said:


> Good for you, I hope that saying that has made you feel all warm and fuzzy for the rest of the day.


Thanks for asking! Many things have given me a warm and fuzzy feeling today. 
Sheilah


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## cliffson1

@selzer....in past we are often on different sides of the fence, but your last post is one of the most realistic "common sense" post I have read in this thread. Theory without plausible pathway to success sounds noble but rarely accomplishes much....that's just the way it is. What you just wrote is very practical and achievable. With issues like this I like to remember the serenity prayer, with emphasis on 2nd and 3rd part!


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> By encouraging people rather than discouraging people, maybe they will do some health checks on their dogs prior to breeding. Maybe they will require more from the dog or bitch they are breeding to. Maybe they will spend more time and energy on the puppies. Maybe they will screen the buyers better. Maybe they will offer to take back puppies at any time.


So instead of trying to convince them NOT to breed at all, we should try to encourage them to go ahead and breed, but do it the right way? That makes sense... much of the time, the dog in question should actually NOT be bred (cryptorchid, etc) but we can encourage them, if they are truly interested in breeding, to do some research and purchase a breeding-quality dog instead of breeding the one they have.



> Ah well, I think your shelter plan would be a huge fail on me. After all, one of the ladies volunteering over there, while she would never buy a dog from a breeder, bought her GSD puppy from the pet store in the mall in Erie. I expect learning about the plight of puppies the world over is not what is learned in the Ashtabula shelter.


There are always people that stubbornly refuse to learn.  I've seen it myself.... people that have actually worked at shelters having oops litters of their own, or even intentional litters of their own, or they buy from BYBs. What they actually learn depends on what they want to see.

I thought I wanted to be a breeder when I was young. I dreamed of breeding top-quality dogs, showing, titling, winning, the whole thing. I used to go to AKC shows when I was a child and I thought it was the coolest thing EVER, and if only I could be a part of it! If my parents had been on board with letting me get a dog and show in Jr. Showmanship, it would have been a dream come true. But sadly, the dream died when I started working professionally with animals and saw the fallout of bad breeding, overbreeding, and puppy mills. At first I thought I would just be one of those GOOD breeders. Even into my late twenties I thought that. But the more I worked with other people's animals, the more I became acutely aware of the ethical issues surrounding breeding, and eventually I realized I don't have the temperament for it. 

Maybe other people will be strong enough and determined enough to get a little information on the responsible way to breed, and take it upon themselves to chase it all the way to the top. Selzer, you might be on to something.  Thanks for your input.


----------



## selzer

Freestep said:


> So instead of trying to convince them NOT to breed at all, we should try to encourage them to go ahead and breed, but do it the right way? That makes sense... much of the time, the dog in question should actually NOT be bred (cryptorchid, etc) but we can encourage them, if they are truly interested in breeding, to do some research and purchase a breeding-quality dog instead of breeding the one they have.
> 
> 
> 
> There are always people that stubbornly refuse to learn.  I've seen it myself.... people that have actually worked at shelters having oops litters of their own, or even intentional litters of their own, or they buy from BYBs. What they actually learn depends on what they want to see.
> 
> *I thought I wanted to be a breeder when I was young. I dreamed of breeding top-quality dogs, showing, titling, winning, the whole thing. I used to go to AKC shows when I was a child and I thought it was the coolest thing EVER, and if only I could be a part of it! If my parents had been on board with letting me get a dog and show in Jr. Showmanship, it would have been a dream come true. But sadly, the dream died when I started working professionally with animals and saw the fallout of bad breeding, overbreeding, and puppy mills. At first I thought I would just be one of those GOOD breeders. Even into my late twenties I thought that. But the more I worked with other people's animals, the more I became acutely aware of the ethical issues surrounding breeding, and eventually I realized I don't have the temperament for it.
> *
> Maybe other people will be strong enough and determined enough to get a little information on the responsible way to breed, and take it upon themselves to chase it all the way to the top. Selzer, you might be on to something.  Thanks for your input.


Frankly, I think that this paragraph might be truer to your background and viewpoints. It does not offend because it says, I: This is my story, my experience, my desire to breed, and why I chose not to. It does not immediately turn people away by saying You: should not breed, you will add to the over-population, you will produce poorly bred dogs with health and temperament issues. It is honest. And it speaks to most of the people who are newly entering into ownership of pure-bred dogs. 

Will some discount it, as this is you, not them, sure. Some of them. Some might want to know more about the ethics in breeding issues you were talking about, and whether there is more to this breeding stuff than they thought. But it probably will not send people off in a huff, so that they cannot injest the good information and helpful responses that are always offered.


----------



## selzer

I think that when we try to post something that is against our nature, it will not come out right. Well, it will not have the desired effect. 

I mean, if you encourage someone to breed the right way, it can come out just as judgemental and off-putting as telling them not to breed, all the dogs in shelters, etc. 

I think that for the most part, we need to do something I am terrible at, economizing our words to say only the most important things, and leaving out anything that sounds like we are judging them. This is where Lisa's post was interesting, she has a post that she sends to all the should I breed posts, or all that she sees and chooses to post on. While I have not seen it, I would imagine that it is well-thought-out, gives a basic position, and does not immediately turn people off.


----------



## Blanketback

selzer said:


> By encouraging people rather than discouraging people, maybe they will do some health checks on their dogs prior to breeding.


And it would be helpful for those potential breeders to know exactly what a "health check" entails: what tests should be run, and xrays. Most average people believe that their dogs have _already_ been health checked, because they've seen a vet regularly, lol.


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## Sunflowers

Truth is, most people want to breed their *pet* who they believe is just fabulous, and are not interested in spending over $2000 for a dog they _may_ be able to breed, if they first spend $$$ and years doing all that is required according to "breeding snobs," which is what they consider people who think only well bred dogs should reproduce.

It's kinda like someone saying, "I wanna drag race with my junker!"
and being told, "No, you have to go to driving academy, find mentors and advertisers, and purchase a Ferrari first."

I am beginning to agree with what Cliff said.


----------



## Lilie

Honestly Sue, I'd love to see a post where a breeder stated how much it cost them when whelping went south. And a precentage of whelping a seasoned breeder had where things didn't go well. 

I can't blame folks for thinking their own dog would rock the GSD world. But I think if they were hit with a reality check...in their pocket book..it might make them think twice.


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## carmspack

but Cliff in other posts in other threads you throw your hands up in frustration and fatigue at where the breed is going ---


----------



## carmspack

add this little beauty to the list ---http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...practice-better-way-think-about-breeding.html


too much breeding going on which only considers you need a male , you need a female , the female needs to be in season -- colour , and registration.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> Frankly, I think that this paragraph might be truer to your background and viewpoints. It does not offend because it says, I: This is my story, my experience, my desire to breed, and why I chose not to. It does not immediately turn people away by saying You: should not breed, you will add to the over-population, you will produce poorly bred dogs with health and temperament issues. It is honest. And it speaks to most of the people who are newly entering into ownership of pure-bred dogs.


Perhaps I should do like someone previously mentioned, and create a document where I can simply copy and paste that paragraph the next time a breeding thread comes up. I've already saved a spiel on the Furminator which I routinely copy and paste in those threads.

Someone once expressed disgust that I say "I, my, me me me" in my posts, so there's a good chance that someone will find a way to be offended, but I don't know another way to relate a personal experience.



> Will some discount it, as this is you, not them, sure. Some of them. Some might want to know more about the ethics in breeding issues you were talking about, and whether there is more to this breeding stuff than they thought. But it probably will not send people off in a huff, so that they cannot injest the good information and helpful responses that are always offered.


It's worth a shot... I know that some people will do as they please no matter what anyone says, so I certainly have nothing to lose.


----------



## LifeofRiley

@ Freestep - honestly, don't overthink it, be true to your thoughts and experience!


----------



## Freestep

LifeofRiley said:


> @ Freestep - honestly, don't overthink it, be true to your thoughts and experience!


Oh, no no no... don't encourage that, or I'll be banned for good.


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## LifeofRiley

Freestep said:


> Oh, no no no... don't encourage that, or I'll be banned for good.


Well, I certainly don't want you banned... so, do what you have to do to avoid that at all cost 

Now that you mentioned banned members, I really do miss some of them. In fact, even though some were folks I did not agree with on all/many/some points - I tended to like the fact that they were not afraid to be controversial. That is the common denominator of the folks I am talking about. Of course, I know, there are plenty of others that have been banned for reasons that I am fine with.


----------



## sitstay

Freestep said:


> Oh, no no no... don't encourage that, or I'll be banned for good.


Oh, indeed! I think there are a few of us who struggle with that issue. 
Sheilah


----------



## JakodaCD OA

> Honestly Sue, I'd love to see a post where a breeder stated how much it cost them when whelping went south. And a precentage of whelping a seasoned breeder had where things didn't go well.


I think sue has posted a few of her own incidents here that she encountered with the above so you might ask her or look back on some of her posts


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## cliffson1

Carmen, I do have frustration with the direction of the breed.....but I think that the breeding of lines based on color, drives, and angulation, have done as much if not more to destroy the breed. Who's going to flog those people??? I think reality is as Selzer says, that most people if inclined will breed regardless of what we say....so why not point them in the right direction. Nothing is absolutely correct in this situation, and I don't think Selzer means to encourage people to breed wrongly( if there is such a thing), she is saying answer their questions and possibly give them better options to help them instead of arbitrarily telling them not to breed. I know this wont be popular, but what is correct? What is the difference in BYB and ASL breeders technically? Many of ASL breeders breed without all health checks, shoot they will Finnish a dog at 14 months and that male will be bred at 18 months, they will breed with the only temperament testing is conditioning to stand on loose lead in a ring and some of them can barely do that but if the sire/dam gets points they will be bred, no titles, no health checks, underage, yet still bred. Happens all the time, but if a handler or kennel name is affixed to the breeding, people swallow the canary. This is no different than BYB in the sense of the things you are crucifying the " wanting to breed my dog person" is the same things they are neglecting. Not trashing ASL, just stating facts and showing the hypocrisy of the experts that often are the harshest. Carmen, more times than not your posts gently try to educate, but their are some blunt mean answers on these threads from less than expert sources....it's laughable and I am not sure effective which ultimately is more important than my opinion. I have accepted that there is no easy answer to this issue, complicated by our different interpretations of BYB, freedom of breeding practices in most countries, and the lack of knowledge of the breed today by so many.......and the many cracks of acceptable breeding practices that put just as many dogs in shelters, ( actually breeding practices are no more responsible than irresponsible ownership or unfortunate circumstances in putting dogs in shelters, but I tire of correcting folks on this because they are anal about it though not accurate) as BYB. I tried to stay out of this, cause I feel the same about this discussion as some feel about the " I want to breed my dogs "people....lol.


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## Lilie

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think sue has posted a few of her own incidents here that she encountered with the above so you might ask her or look back on some of her posts


Yea...that's why I picked on her.  Not attempting to get into private business (i.e. finances) but something as normal as whelping can really set a person back if things don't go as planned. Even with the best intentions and loads of experiance to back you up.


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## carmspack

thank you Cliff for participating . my day is full so much later I will get back to this .

in the meantime think of this -- breeding is a road trip .

Along the way you will encounter a RED LIGHT --- Stop ! (wait until you have a mentor- know more )

a yellow cautionary light --enter with caution , be prepared to stop (think about it , what you are doing) and

a GREEN Light which is everything is fine go ahead , but still look for that vehicle or obstacle in the road which could cause you grief . 


So the people we are talking about are the distracted drivers that will speed through a red light - they get where they want , satisfy their needs , but have caused damage , or worse , along the way , not even realizing it until they crash and burn .

Breeding is dynamic, on the move , with cause and effects.

Sometimes on that road trip the signs will say DEAD END , or DO NOT ENTER .

sometimes the car is unsafe , breaks down , is pulled off the road as hazardous , 

later , more to come


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## LoveEcho

There are some great posts by some seriously knowledgeable people on this thread... may I suggest this be a sticky? (Though, I'm not too optimistic many of the "I want to breed my two dogs" people are reading the stickies anyways... but STILL)


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> Carmen, I do have frustration with the direction of the breed.....but I think that the breeding of lines based on color, drives, and angulation, have done as much if not more to destroy the breed. Who's going to flog those people???


Go ahead!  



> What is the difference in BYB and ASL breeders technically? Many of ASL breeders breed without all health checks, shoot they will Finnish a dog at 14 months and that male will be bred at 18 months, they will breed with the only temperament testing is conditioning to stand on loose lead in a ring and some of them can barely do that but if the sire/dam gets points they will be bred, no titles, no health checks, underage, yet still bred.


Well, I totally agree with you on this; breeding for conformation only has caused as much downfall of the breed as indiscriminate BYB breeding. But those type of ASL breeders don't generally post breeding threads here. And even if they did, they probably wouldn't listen to any of us. If their dogs are winning, they must be doing something right, right?  Who are we to mess with success?

Believe me, I've stood ringside at AKC conformation and wanted to scream. But that could be a whole 'nuther thread--how do you tell THOSE people that they aren't really breeding to the written standard, when they're winning in the conformation ring? The ASL world is so institutionalized, you'd have to get through to not only breeders, but judges, handlers, and the AKC. And they don't seem to care. I think that's out of the scope of this forum. 

The problem with the breed is complex and it's not just BYBs that are to blame, but it's the BYBs (or wannabe-BYBs) we see here most often.


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## sitstay

> Believe me, I've stood ringside at AKC conformation and wanted to scream. But that could be a whole 'nuther thread--how do you tell THOSE people that they aren't really breeding to the written standard, when they're winning in the conformation ring? The ASL world is so institutionalized, you'd have to get through to not only breeders, but judges, handlers, and the AKC. And they don't seem to care. I think that's out of the scope of this forum.


Why limit the tar and feathers to the ASL folks? Has anyone been paying attention to the WGSL dogs in the last 7-8 years? Or attention to how many WL breeders are churning out sable puppies as fast as the pet market can buy them? 

It should ALL be within the scope of this forum, since we are supposed to be lovers of the breed and interested in doing what is in the best interests of the breed, both with the dogs that we own today and all those generations in the future. 

And yet, here we are, where pithy invitations to PM the expert passes for sharing of knowledge, where a border-line puppy mill/hoarder is lionized as some kind of Oracle and the busiest thread on the whole board has nothing to do with anything in particular and certainly nothing to do with GSDs. This board has become like a carnival fun house, where everything is distorted and what seems real isn't, and what is real can't be discussed openly. Which I guess brings us back full circle to the sly, "PM for details".

What is the correct way to reply to people who want to breed? First we have to recognize that it is a complex situation and can never be distilled down to some simple algorithm that will invariably spit out a proofed response that will work for everyone, all the time. And then we need to accept that you can throw all the information on best practices at some people and they are going to do whatever they want to do, regardless. 

Some people do come here looking for validation of decisions they have already made. And sometimes those people are going to be mortally offended when they don't get that validation. No amount of sweetened advice is going to change that. And all the collective navel gazing from board members won't change it.

The correct answer is to just say, "It depends". It doesn't have anything to do with "adopting" from a rescue always being the right answer for everyone. Or with "buying" from a breeder always being the right answer for everyone. Or with only breeding "titled" parent dogs. Or only breeding WL dogs. Or WGSL dogs. Or ASL dogs. Or with breeding cheap because you "only want to produce pets". Or with breeding uber-expensive because "you have to lose money in order to be a reputable breeder". It doesn't have anything to do with any of that. Because the answer is more complex than a neat, one size fits all response. 

Now, if none of this makes any sense, blame it in the sinus infection I have been fighting these past few days.
Sheilah


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## carmspack

QUALITY before QUANTITY


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## JakodaCD OA

actually Sheila, perfect sense to me Carmen I agree as well..I do like your driving analogy as well


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## sitstay

JakodaCD OA said:


> Carmen I agree as well..I do like your driving analogy as well


I agree with the thought that Carmen's driving analogy was very useful. It frames the whole process in an easily accessed manner. 
Sheilah


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## Freestep

sit said:


> Why limit the tar and feathers to the ASL folks? Has anyone been paying attention to the WGSL dogs in the last 7-8 years? Or attention to how many WL breeders are churning out sable puppies as fast as the pet market can buy them?


Questionable breeding practices are certainly not limited to ASLs and BYBs. I think breeding for extremes in ANYTHING is problematic. 

Not all ASL breeders are bad, either. I meant to say that in my earlier post.


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## Lilie

sit said:


> Now, if none of this makes any sense, blame it in the sinus infection I have been fighting these past few days.
> Sheilah


Actually Sheila, that was very well said.


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