# Need Advice on GSD Breeding...



## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

My husband and I just purchased our very first GSD.. a 6MO female. We are thinking about the future and thinking about breeding her when she is old enough. I heard 2YO is when you can start... correct? We live in Northeast Ohio near Youngstown; and are wanting to see if there are any breeders w/ a short-haired GSD stud that produces great pups nearby. All the advice and knowledge would be greatly appreciated! Thank You!!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, it is never too early to think about where you want to go with your new dog. 

However, you're kind of starting on the wrong end here. Your puppy is too young to evaluate for breeding, so you will be better served to work with her, take her to classes, train her, get her to some shows, and spend the next year evaluating her to see what areas she needs a stud dog to improve. 

You need to pick the dog by evaluating the bitch, and she simply isn't there yet. 

Stick around. there is lots of information on this site. 

Also, there is a GSD club close enough for you to get to. It is a great place to get to know the dogs and their owners. 

PM if you are interested in that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)




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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

Thank you everyone! I'm now wanting to forget about it. lol  yea after seeing the big picture and the grand total of JUST THE BREEDING, me and my husband are really reconsidering. Because we DEFINITELY don't have the money for that. I guess i never really considered the vet bills for the bitch before, during, and after, and the puppies after they're born. If anything, it may be further into the future than we thought, if we do plan again. Thanks again everyone!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

GSD<3er212 said:


> Thank you everyone! I'm now wanting to forget about it. lol  yea after seeing the big picture and the grand total of JUST THE BREEDING, me and my husband are really reconsidering. Because we DEFINITELY don't have the money for that. I guess i never really considered the vet bills for the bitch before, during, and after, and the puppies after they're born. If anything, it may be further into the future than we thought, if we do plan again. Thanks again everyone!


How smart are YOU???? I know I'll never be a breeder for so many reasons, much easier to leave it to the people who have the experience and background to do it well, and I'll support them with my $$$$ so they can keep up the good work!

HEY, where are the brags and pictures of your pup ???? 

:wild: :wub: :wild:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It's your first GSD . To you she may be the sun, the moon , the stars , and I hope she is , the best experience for you . Get involved , learn the breed , do training, have the dog critically evaluated , in the ring, on the trial field, x rayed, health checked , and then there is the pedigree , and finding the RIGHT match for her that does more than contribute sperm . There is SOOOO much to know . If that works for you , then the forum is a great place to start learning ---- so lets see the pup , and lets hear where you got her from and what her background is.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Nice pic of the berner and the baby


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

yes, im still learning SO much!  i mean my aunt has a long haired GSD and all i REALLY know is that they are very protective of their "pack" and Oh so loyal.. like my pup is turning out to be.  

Anyway, my husband's friend from work was looking for a dog for us since we were looking; and she happen to see the ad of the puppy. She was actually found on Craigslist. The family we got her from Texas and the husband was in the military... and they werent, the best of taking care of her.. if id say... the husband wanted her but the wife said no because she wasnt a "big dog lover". But we went and got her on Nov 30th this year. I kid you not she had to be under 40lbs because i could see every rib and spine bone. a week later, we put her in puppy classes, doing fantastic, and shes now up to a healthy 55lbs and filling out beautifully!


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

OH! I definitely dont think she was properly socialized with other people and dogs... because shes very skittish with new people, and barks at every dog she dont know.. which is understandable, but it gets embarrassing when im out shopping and she goes bazurk barking at others.. it also makes me very nervous... because idk how she will really act with the others.. shes been great with her puppy class friends until its time to play.. she plays so rough, she paws (which i find normal with puppies) but she also tries to bite as shes playing. which makes me super nervous about the other owners. When she goes nuts, Ive tried getting her attention with treats, "poking" her side and making a loud noticeable different noise than shes used to, but she like, "blocks" me out.. Ive tried about everything but a squeaky toy.. which i dont think that'll work either... Any advice?


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

GSD<3er212 said:


> OH! I definitely dont think she was properly socialized with other people and dogs... because shes very skittish with new people, and barks at every dog she dont know.. which is understandable, but it gets embarrassing when im out shopping and she goes bazurk barking at others.. it also makes me very nervous... because idk how she will really act with the others.. shes been great with her puppy class friends until its time to play.. she plays so rough, she paws (which i find normal with puppies) but she also tries to bite as shes playing. which makes me super nervous about the other owners. When she goes nuts, Ive tried getting her attention with treats, "poking" her side and making a loud noticeable different noise than shes used to, but she like, "blocks" me out.. Ive tried about everything but a squeaky toy.. which i dont think that'll work either... Any advice?


PS... my pup is iffy with certain family too.. mostly my younger brother and sister.. she wanted NOTHING to do with them.. we've tried everything... and she still goes nuts when they are around... i must add that they are very loud, and ADHD like... -.- ive told them to stay calm, dont acknowledge her, etc, they listened, but didnt work. Everyone else, shes cool with.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would start another thread in the training section. Or read some of the threads in the training/behavior forums, many have the same things you are dealing with. 

The book Control Unleashed has several exercises to help dogs with reactivity. I'd invest in a copy asap! 

Also some training places do hold classes based on the book(or the CU concept) if you can, get into one of those classes.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

looks like you have your hands full -- 
please do not breed this dog .


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

carmspack said:


> looks like you have your hands full --
> please do not breed this dog .


She just wasnt properly socialized. doesnt mean i cant breed her.. she's still young and got to work at her social skills.. shes in puppy classes and thats a big start. if it happens, breeding may not be at 2YO it may be a little later...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Her temperament isn't from lack of socialization...it is genetic and really she isn't a dog that should pass on her traits.
A dog that is:

*skittish with new people,
barks at every dog she dont know
my pup is iffy with certain family too
she still goes nuts when they are around*

doesn't sound like one with a stable temperament. After she's been well trained and still has this personality, please do not consider breeding her.


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

seriously? even if the only people she was with b4 we got her was the husband, wife, and a toddler? no one else? no other dog? She was even like that when we first introduced ourselves to her, and when we introduced her to our 5YO dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Please read this before breeding your dog with unknown background - you are not only NOT adding anything positive to the breed (as a whole) it's breedings like this that are the DOWNFALL of the GSD.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-losing-her-leg-today-eastern-wa-state-2.html

For those contemplating breeding your dogs who are not titled (sometimes not even registered) or health tested...think about Heidi.

She was most likely bred under the same circumstances - although a beautiful girl with a sweet temperament (and a FINE family companion!) she isn't anything special that when I look at her I can see that the breeder had specific goals in mind. 

Most likely they just like the breed, they love their dogs and wanted to create more like them. Maybe they wanted to earn back some of the money they spent on the parents, or maybe not. I've heard that sentiment too many times to completely disregard it. 

The problem is, any good potential buyers who can easily afford a dog up to (and sometimes over) $1200 aren't going to be surfing craigslist or the want ads searching for a puppy! No, they'll be asking about good breeders here on places like this, or going straight to AKC's websites to find good, quality breeders who breed to better the breed - not just because they have a male and female, or a female and their friend has a male. These buyers know what a crap shoot puppies can be, and want to stack the odds in their favor by going with breeders who health and temperament test their dogs. 

So...dogs like Heidi wind up in a home where she was quite probably always an outside dog - maybe a fence, maybe not. 
And one day she wasn't there. Either wandered off, or maybe even stolen.
A few days later the owner notices she's back, with a bad injury this time. 
And now she's in rescue minus the leg which some idiot managed to damage irreparably. 

For most breeders who breed their dogs just because they can, this is the fate of quite possibly half or more of the puppies in the litter. 
Sometimes they wind up in great, lifelong homes. Most often, I'm willing to bet not. 

This scenario repeats itself daily in our country. Shelters are overflowing with the surplus puppies and dogs that people had little to no commitment to in the first place, and those dogs must go somewhere. 

I read statistics a while back that said an average person would have to own like, 5-6 dogs (per person in America) to take care of all the dogs already in this world.
I mean - per person! A family of 4? 20 dogs. Per family. 

It really makes you stop and think, or it should.
I know the fates of dogs like this, because we're called daily to try to help them. We face, daily, the results of irresponsible breeding


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Out of curiosity... why do you want to breed her? Any specific reasons?


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> Out of curiosity... why do you want to breed her? Any specific reasons?


@ Lucy Dog: We were just thinking about it, really.. We were told she had a good bloodline. We're pretty new w/ the GSD world, though. Most of it is so we could get $$ out of the pups.. but i dont know if we wanna do it after i saw some of the costs..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you have her pedigree? You are in an area with puppy mills aren't you? Could she have come from a miller?


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

and @ msvette2u... as i said me and my husband are still new to the "registered" GSD world. you could say a bunch of names and neither of us would understand.. lol but we're are not meaning to be "irresponsible" breeders. most of it was for the $ and so someone can enjoy their own GSD like we are enjoying our pup... i mean, w/ professional breeders, isn't it for $$ along w/ just business? Just curious..


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Do you have her pedigree? You are in an area with puppy mills aren't you? Could she have come from a miller?


@ onyx'girl .... yes i do have her pedigree. so she is registered. and puppy mills? not that i know of.. We live in Niles... near the Youngstown area..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Most breeders breed because they are passionate about the breed...they want to do right by the breed and money isn't really the goal. They work their dogs, title them, and show how well their program is doing by working, titling, and showing what they've produced! 

Would you support a breeder who is passionate and knowledgeable about the breed and how to properly match pedigrees, or one that is just putting two of the same breed together to make $?

I asked about the pedigree out of curiosity...papers don't necessarily make the dog, it is what is in the bloodlines that does. A dog can have papers and the pedigree is a mishmashed mess. Or it can be a thought out breeding match. Because you admit you don't know lineage, how would you know what you have?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

You've gotten some pretty good advice so far, but just keep in mind that a lot of these traits (barking at dogs, skittish around new people, etc) will be passed on to those puppies. Those puppies are most likely going to grow up and have these same characteristics that mom has. These type of issues are not just from lack of socialization. A lot of it has to do with her genetics. The same genetics she'll be passing on to her puppies.

With that said... find the pedigree and post it if you could, OFA hips and elbows when the time comes, get involved in showing or trialing and title the dog, and then maybe you may want to start considering breeding her, but I wouldn't even think about it until you've at least done all this stuff. 

And money out of the pups? Do the good breeders actually make money on the pups they sell? I'm not a breeder and never will be one, but I was under the impression that the puppy business is a wash at best. I'd also think the good breeders aren't too concerned with the money aspect of breeding though. They do it for other reasons.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSD<3er212 said:


> Most of it is so we could get $$ out of the pups.. but i dont know if we wanna do it after i saw some of the costs..



Worst reason ever 
For one thing - if the puppies get sick with parvo, if mama needs a c-section, or gets mastitis, or any thousands of etc.s, you'll wipe out your savings in the venture. 
Your pet is a pet, just spay her and let her be a pet.



> isn't it for $$ along w/ just business?


No, with good breeders (the kind that health test- elbow cert., heart cert., hip cert., etc, which all can add up to thousands) they breed because their dogs will contribute positively to the gene pool.
We _do_ need good breeders, to keep the GSD alive and healthy and temperamentally sound, but you can't do it without all the proper certifications and showing and working your dog.


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

All of you make a good point.. my husband and I both absolutely love GSD breed but we didn't have the $$ till recently to get our 1st. and we are both really wanting to learn everything we can about them. like with breeding, what to watch out for, what to look for, etc. i would love to put the pup in (maybe?) agility...(if theyre is anything like that close around here) But as i said, i have 0 clue about what her sire/dam, grand-sire/grand-dam, etc.. was or did.. that would pass on those characteristics... if they did.. I've been coming on here everyday to read for HOURS about this amazing breed. And I hope to keep getting more great advice from you guys!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

what is her registered name?


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> what is her registered name?


"Keiko's Fraulien Lady"


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And she is AKC registered?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I totally agree with MissVette2U. Like everyone else involved in rescue, I've seen beautiful purebred GSDs on the euthanasia list in our shelter because they were bred irresponsibly in a market where too many are breeding them, and there aren't enough good homes for them. I've seen heart-broken dogs who don't understand why their people view them as disposable. It's terribly sad. My small city has had nearly 50 purebred GSDs pass through our tiny shelter this year--that I know of. Someone bred every one of those dogs, and failed them.

I'll go a step further and say this: GOOD breeders insist that dogs get returned to them, rather than dumped at shelters, if adoptions don't work out. That's an enormous commitment. If you aren't willing to make a 15 year commitment to be a safety-net for the litter you bring into the world, _please_ don't do it. There are already way, way too many purebred dogs without safety nets dying at public shelters.

ETA: Enjoy your wonderful, new dog! By all means, get involved in training and activities that are fun for you both. While you are at it, if you find your love of the breed deepening, once your girl mellows out and is better socialized, contact your local GSD rescue and have a conversation about fostering in a couple of years, instead of breeding. You'll have a constant parade of new dogs, sometimes puppies, and save lives in the process. If you do it a few times, I _promise _that it will give you a deeper understanding of the overbreeding problem -- you'll love the breed a in whole new way!


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> And she is AKC registered?


Yes, she is. we just got her AKC tag i believe earlier this week. and registered her a couple days after we brought her home. She was never registered w/ her first family.


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

Magwart said:


> I totally agree with MissVette2U. Like everyone else involved in rescue, I've seen beautiful purebred GSDs on the euthanasia list in our shelter because they were bred irresponsibly in a market where too many are breeding them, and there aren't enough good homes for them. I've seen heart-broken dogs who don't understand why their people view them as disposable. It's terribly sad. My small city has had nearly 50 purebred GSDs pass through our tiny shelter this year--that I know of. Someone bred every one of those dogs, and failed them.
> 
> I'll go a step further and say this: GOOD breeders insist that dogs get returned to them, rather than dumped at shelters, if adoptions don't work out. That's an enormous commitment. If you aren't willing to make a 15 year commitment to be a safety-net for the litter you bring into the world, _please_ don't do it. There are already way, way too many purebred dogs without safety nets dying at public shelters.



I totally agree w/ MissVette2U as well. But i dont think we would consider breeding anymore anyway.. seeing that it costs easily $6,000+ just for vet bills BEFORE the pups are born, its not worth it. and it really does tear my heart seeing all these failed dogs...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSD<3er212 said:


> we're are not meaning to be "irresponsible" breeders. most of it was for the $


You probably don't realize the irony in your statement.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

GSD<3er212 said:


> seriously? even if the only people she was with b4 we got her was the husband, wife, and a toddler? no one else? no other dog? She was even like that when we first introduced ourselves to her, and when we introduced her to our 5YO dog.


Without knowing your dogs background it's impossible to tell if her less-than-desirable temperament is due to nature (genetics) or nurture (her up bringing).

Even if it's not genetic it IS something she can pass along to the puppies.

The bitch plays a HUGE part in the upbringing of the puppies. Her actions are what the puppies see and start to imitate.

If Mom acts scared when a stranger approaches then the pups will, too.

I fostered a small mixed-breed dog for a rescue group (years ago). The bitch was as sweet as pie to my DH, myself and our pack - until she started to give birth. As each pup was born she became more protective. By the time the last pup was born we couldn't even come within 5 feet of the whelping box.

We weren't able to handle the pups for almost 10 days. Mom ate, slept, peed and pooped in the room she was in. We were finally able to make a lasso from a leash, toss it over her head and drag her out of the box - literally - so we could check the pups and clean up the room.

Every time we had to take her out of the room it was the same routine. She would jump in the whelping box and crouch over the pups, growling and snarling at us. We would lasso her and as soon as she was outside she was happy and friendly to us.

The problem was her reactions were already impacting the puppies. We weaned them a week early just to get them away from her but it was too late. The pups were afraid of people and terrified of our dogs.

It took alot of work to get them to the point where they were adoptable and I found out later than one of them was returned to the rescue due to temperament and had to be put down.

I would never breed a bitch that didn't have a rock-solid, 100% awesome temperament.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> The bitch plays a HUGE part in the upbringing of the puppies. Her actions are what the puppies see and start to imitate.


This is a very good point.
We rescued a mama that had just that day given birth to a litter of puppies in a field.
She was very aggressive when we approached her (typical) and I had to get my catch pole to get her out of the woodpile she was in.

She was very aggressive to us for the 1st week or so we had her...as the puppies grew she gradually became less aggressive but didn't lose her 'mistrust' of us. She just wasn't friendly and was pretty shy.

We let the puppies stay with her until 6 weeks of age. Big mistake. 
Each and every one has shyness, some moreso than others. 
I wish we'd taken them at 4 weeks and handled them daily instead of leaving them with mom, but of course hindsight is 20/20. 

And when you get puppies like this they are even tougher to place; luckily they were so freaking cute they all found terrific homes, so did mom (very understanding terrific home) and they actually have get-togethers every so often, so we get pics.

Anyway - that's just one example of how wrong things can go when raising a litter...even with the best of intentions.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Not all dog reactivity is from poor breeding. My dog has a nice pedigree of well titled working line dogs but he went through a period of dog reactivity from about 3 months to about 7 months old. He was never reactive towards people though. Always very out going and friendly with everyone he met. As he matured the dog reactivity lessoned and now at 18 months he is BETTER behaved around other dogs than the other dogs that he is around. We also trained through it all and now he has his BH and we are working towards his IPO1. 

My suggestion to the OP is to forget about breeding for at least 2 years. Get involved heavily with the breed. Go observe a schutzhund club and watch German Shepherds in action. You will see real differences in dogs right before your eyes. If it interests you, have your dog evaluated and get involved your self. When you start training your own dog, you will learn who your dog is and what she is capable of. If you are not interested in Schuthzund, that is ok, go find another venue and observe German Shepherd dogs in Action. Seeing them in real life, training, performing and often even failing at something will open your eyes to varying aspects of this breed.


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

Completely understandable! really! lol i was just confused because, she was (and still is) completely 100% cool with my grandparents, my one sister, 2 of my brothers, my mom, stepdad, one of our best friends, and my aunt. and that was from the first time she met them. with my one brother and sister, she about wants nothing to do with them. (she shows no aggression, just "nervous" like, actions.. but could it be possible that she can "sense" something, that she just doesn't like in them?? its weird bc the only real people she is REALLY iffy with is people in petstores that just come up to her, and think "oh i can pet this dog, she'll be fine" .. me: "uhhh NO!... this is a GSD.. you NEVER go up to this breed and just touch it if you dont know this dog... or any breed for that matter!!" irritates the crap out of me.. lol


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

GSD<3er212 said:


> Completely understandable! really! lol i was just confused because, she was (and still is) completely 100% cool with my grandparents, my one sister, 2 of my brothers, my mom, stepdad, one of our best friends, and my aunt. and that was from the first time she met them. with my one brother and sister, she about wants nothing to do with them. (she shows no aggression, *just "nervous" like, actions*.. but could it be possible that she can "sense" something, that she just doesn't like in them?? its weird bc the only real people she is REALLY iffy with is people in petstores that just come up to her, and think "oh i can pet this dog, she'll be fine" .. me: "uhhh NO!... this is a GSD.. you NEVER go up to this breed and just touch it if you dont know this dog... or any breed for that matter!!" irritates the crap out of me.. lol


Being nervous around people concerns me more than being reactive with other dogs. She should be very confident around people. For me this is a key temperament issue to consider when making a breeding decision.


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

robk said:


> Being nervous around people concerns me more than being reactive with other dogs. *She should be very confident around people.* For me this is a key temperament issue to consider when making a breeding decision.


Thats what i was thinking. youd think for almost 7MO she'd be playful. She didnt come from the "best" of home, if you ask me.. i know it could be genetic, but im thinking she was also nurtured wrong.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am going to try to say this as clearly as possible - 

IF she had a solid temperament, her earlier experiences would not matter. Her good temperament would overcome the shortcomings of her upbringing.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

GSD<3er212 said:


> .. lol but we're are not meaning to be "irresponsible" breeders. most of it was for the $ and so someone can enjoy their own GSD like we are enjoying our pup... i mean, w/ professional breeders, isn't it for $$ along w/ just business? Just curious..


breeding for the $$ is pretty much a dead-giveaway for an irresponsible breeder. No matter how famous or reputable they might be. Why? Because to make a profit in any business you have to minimize expenses. Not an easy thing to do without cutting corners when you are dealing with living creatures!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

GSD<3er212 said:


> its weird bc the only real people she is REALLY iffy with is people in petstores that just come up to her, and think "oh i can pet this dog, she'll be fine" .. me: "uhhh NO!... this is a GSD.. you NEVER go up to this breed and just touch it if you dont know this dog... or any breed for that matter!!" irritates the crap out of me.. lol


It shouldn't irritate you. YOU brought the dog into a pet store, expect it to be touched. Especially a puppy. I know she's 7 months old, but most people will know she's a puppy and will expect her to not have any issues with humans and expect you to let them pet her. Remember, YOU'RE bringing this dog into a place where there are generally very good dogs. Bringing your dog into a pet store isn't a right, its a privilage, and taking a dog that could potentially do something into a public place is asking for trouble. Most people will ask to pet, but some will ask while they're already reaching out to pet, and then there are those that won't ask, this is because 99.9% of the dogs that are brought into pet stores are not reactive, especially to people.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Agree martemchik. Get her a vest that says "no petting - in training" or something - that will deter some. If you truly don't want others petting your dog, don't take her into the store. 



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> IF she had a solid temperament, her earlier experiences would not matter. Her good temperament would overcome the shortcomings of her upbringing.


Very much agree. You can compensate and manage a scared/nervy dog, but there is no substitution for stable and social temperament. Wiva was at the breeder's kennel with minimal socialization till 11 months old. I socialized her and exposed her to different scenarios. Parks, family gatherings, social events with friends, to the beach, car rides, dog shows, dog trials, training in different places with different people, goes to the medical office with me to do her therapy work, great with children, can settle in the most hectic environment. She has been exposed to heavy compulsion during training and we have used a heavy hand during some work, but she has bounced back and is able to behave in a very stable manner. Genetics form the backbone of the dog - you develop it with socialization/training/etc, but the stability and base template must be strong genetically. Also, if you do not know her background, pedigree, or lines, it is a risky gamble to do a breeding with this dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog is not stable -- A dog with rock solid temperament just plain *IS* and will be even if not socialized -- okay the first time the encounter something , situation or environment -- basic , to the core , good temperament.

I congratulate you on your honesty "Most of it is so we could get $$ out of the pups" -- I am leaning towards this having been the criterian for your skittish dogs ancestry , from generation to generation.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

GSD<3er212 said:


> i was just confused because, she was (and still is) completely 100% cool with my grandparents, my one sister, 2 of my brothers, my mom, stepdad, one of our best friends, and my aunt. and that was from the first time she met them. with my one brother and sister, she about wants nothing to do with them. (she shows no aggression, just "nervous" like, actions


It could be that they remind her of someone in her past that mistreated her.



> its weird bc the only real people she is REALLY iffy with is people in petstores that just come up to her, and think "oh i can pet this dog, she'll be fine"


You WANT to get her out and work on building her comfort and confidence with strangers but you have to do it in a way that won't set her back by mistake.

Try going to the pet store right before they close or right after they open. Less people - less stress on her. Bring with some REALLY yummy treats - like pieces of hot dog or chunks of cooked chicken. Go into the store by yourself first and ask a couple of the staff if they would help you work on her. If they say yes give them some of the treats. Tell them to NOT talk to the dog, just hold out the treat for her. Go bring in the dog and calmly walk up to the person. Talk to them in a normal voice and let them give the treats.

You want her to see strangers as treat machines first.  After she starts approaching people with more confidence, then you can ask them to talk to her.

The idea is to SLOWLY build her confidence. When dealing with a problem like fear you should only expect baby steps in the beginning. If you push too hard and the dog relapses they will go backwards in GIANT STEPS.


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

@ Lauri and the Gang: Thanks so much!  I actually cant wait to try that!  

and for the others, its not the fact that im not wanting to have her pet at the store, its the fact that most people in the store dont bother asking to pet.. lol i guess i gotta start telling people to not just "go and pet" her. and to "make friends" with her first.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what is this ? 
"we just got her AKC tag i believe earlier this week. and registered her a couple days after we brought her home. She was never registered w/ her first family"

are you confusing a AKC registration with maybe the tags your dog has as part of your municipalities animal control?

do you know who her sire and dam are?


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

carmspack said:


> what is this ?
> "we just got her AKC tag i believe earlier this week. and registered her a couple days after we brought her home. She was never registered w/ her first family"
> 
> are you confusing a AKC registration with maybe the tags your dog has as part of your municipalities animal control?
> ...



I dont think i have anything confused. She is in fact registered w/ AKC and she has her AKC tag on her collar as we speak. 

Her Sire is: Keiko Vom Haus Amoros
Her Dam is: Cutlip's Lady Misty


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Sire:
SG1 Keiko vom Haus Amoros

Couldn't find anything on the dam.


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

GSDGunner said:


> Sire:
> SG1 Keiko vom Haus Amoros
> 
> Couldn't find anything on the dam.


OMG he is drop dead GoRgEoUs! Im gonna have to use this website for my research! Thanks so much GSDGunner!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

carmspack said:


> what is this ?
> "we just got her AKC tag i believe earlier this week. and registered her a couple days after we brought her home. She was never registered w/ her first family"
> 
> are you confusing a AKC registration with maybe the tags your dog has as part of your municipalities animal control?
> ...


I'm guessing the OP is talking about the optional lost and found recovery service available:
AKC's Lost & Found Offer


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSD<3er212 said:


> Her Sire is: Keiko Vom Haus Amoros
> Her Dam is: Cutlip's Lady Misty


The slip of paper you're reading that from, is that the offical AKC certificate? Or a handwritten pedigree?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What is your dogs AKC registration #?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It seems kind of strange to have such a well-bred stud and "dark horse" dam?
Is this routine?

I know that some dogs in rescue are like this - they'll have ancestors that came from well known and often respected breeders but it trickles down to nothing/unknown breeders by the time the pup or dog we have comes along. 

We had one very recently I was able to trace his breeder easily, and she had no less than 8 litters on the ground at any given time...she sells them like hotcakes


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but the dog looks like a sable ??? Attached Thumbnails
 

beauty is as beauty does -- no matter how "gorgeous" the sire , if he is in fact that , the progeny is still spooky .


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Being no expert on markings I'd say "patterned sable" yeah.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> It seems kind of strange to have such a well-bred stud and "dark horse" dam?
> Is this routine?
> 
> I know that some dogs in rescue are like this - they'll have ancestors that came from well known and often respected breeders but it trickles down to nothing/unknown breeders by the time the pup or dog we have comes along.


Entirely possible. All it takes is a breeder selling a dog to the wrong person who does a breeding to the wrong bitch . There is one infamous Doberman/Rottweiler "kennel" in PA that frequently imports titled males (SchH3, ZTP, V rated, or Seigers). Their name is behind so many BYB lines it's ridiculous.


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

Im reading everything off of her Certified AKC Pedigree signed by the "Executive Secretary" with the AKC seal... and her AKC# is DN34096905... 

and me not being "experienced" with terms, what does "dark horse" dam mean??


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

She's an unknown, unproven female. Look, I have to tell you... I live in Ohio. There are SO many dogs on CL it's not funny. People BYBing and then putting a litter of 6 week old pups up for sale. I'm on my 4th shepherd. I'm just now starting in to work to title a dog. It's not cheap to do even that. You've got to put in a lot of time and effort, and I didn't have the time before. This is a wonderful breed that's been degraded by people breeding that don't know what they're doing. Just titling the dog isn't all of it, either. You have to know how to match pedigrees. I spent a LOT of money on this bitch I bought many years ago. Her parent were both titled. The breeder imported dogs from Germany that were already titled. BUT he didn't know what he was doing. He just put 2 titled dogs together. My bitch had serious mental problems. She attacked people randomly. I put hundreds and hundreds of dollars into trainers and behaviorist, but it was genetic. Nothing to do. There comes a time when you have to admit that you have a nice pet, but you don't know what you're doing when it comes to breeding. You don't want to produce a litter of fearful pups, do you? You don't want to be responsible for people potentially being harmed or having to put those pups down, do you? You're just starting out learning about this breed. If you don't even know about AKC papers, you are NOT ready to even think about breeding. Please spay your girl. Then work with her, learn the ropes, etc. Good breeders don't breed for money. They certainly don't breed dogs they picked up off CL. I am begging you. If you want to be a breeder someday because of your love of the breed then spend the next two years learning about training, titling, the breed, the breed history, how to read pedigrees, how to match pedigrees for breeding and THEN buy a foundation female and think about breeding. Just please spay this female you have. No good will come of breeding her. Find a mentor if it's something you're interested in. 

Please go read the 'aggression' section of this forum. Most of those dogs are genetically messed up. You need to really know what the people and dogs have to go through. It's not fun, and it's not cheap. Some of those dogs end up paying with their life because of an irresponsible breeder. You've been told, so you can't plead ignorance.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Who are the dam's sire and dam? (grandparents on mom's side) Perhaps they are on pedigree and we can fill in the incomplete information on the dog's background.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

All I can tell you is this is your first GSD and you're new to them. I can tell that much. Plus follow the advice to spay your girl. Even at her age, if her temperment was solid, you wouldn't have the issues you currently have. But you've already been told that one. Breeding is way more work than most realize. Leave it to those who have been learning and learning and have spent so much of their life with the breed working and training and just living with them. 

My first GSD was adopted when she was 4 years. She was a family jumper. I adopted her with zero training. She was clueless. She's fabulous with kids, even in her advanced age and horrible hips, allergies triggered by the wrong food or too much moisture in the air or pollen and even water. She loved swimming but it would trigger a serious allergy attack. She's really a great dog once I put some obedience training on her. She has some dominance issues. She's an alpha bitch and an attitude. I never had any problems with her but not many other people can handle her and keep her "opinions" under control. She's a strong determined girl. 

Adopted Shelby when she was a year old. She was fabulous. Perfect dog physically. Had an interest in breeding her. Horrible temperment that I quickly learned was not something I wanted to pass on to any pups. She suffered from seperation anxiety so severe she destroyed a great many things (couch, blinds, shattered a window, etc) and she was shy. Throw in terrified of her own shadow and you have a beautiful but poor excuse for a shepherd. Fabulous coloring, perfect build, in height and weight standards for a female... poor mentality. Very sweet dog but life was VERY difficult with her. Leaving the house took a good extra twenty minutes just to contain her so we didn't come home to a demolished house. She was also an extremely slow learner and couldn't seem to grasp what you were trying to teach her past "sit". She was rehomed with a woman who was always home and couldn't go out often due to health reasons. Shelby fit right in with her. 

My current female is great. She's beautiful, smart, fits the height and weight for the breed standard... good with everyone. Still not the right temperment. Her temperment usually fits more with that of a retriever than a shepherd although she has her moments. I socialized her and she's extremely intelligent. Love her to pieces. I had her spayed just before her 2nd birthday. I only allowed her to remain intact so I was sure she would grow correctly without horomones being messed with. Heat cycles she was seperated from my altered male and she was restricted to the house. No fun field trips for her. I didn't want a litter. They're great dogs but I will definitely leave the breeding up to those who have a far better idea of what they're doing. 

I handled a litter of 11 puppies from the time they were a week old until they were 10 weeks old and rehomed. Their mother was too young to be a mother and poor temperment. Not shy, but aggressive. Luckily none of the pups got that. They got their dads sweet relaxed temperment thankfully but they're all dumb. They're hound mixes but the point is, mom rejected them and it fell to the humans to handle the litter. I was pregnant with my son at the time and the pups parents were our roommates. Our roommate was never home and didnt care anyway. Of the 11, two live here with my inlaws and one of my cousins has another. They're almost 4 years old now. The other pups got turned over to a rescue. Its not something I would EVER want to do again. It was stressful and time consuming and beyond all else, exhausting.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Someone just loaded the dam's pedigree in the past hour. PDB has it as inserted 42 minutes ago as of right now.

Sire: Keiko Vom Haus Amoros
Dam: Cutlip's Lady Misty


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, that is a mishmash of a pedigree if I ever saw one!
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=1903145&mother=1903147


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Good catch Lucy Dog - guess OP uploaded the dam's info. 

Here is the breeding: Line-breeding for the progency of Keiko Vom Haus Amoros and Cutlip's Lady Misty

Sire is untitled/rated and out of untitled/rated dam. Sire is west german showline. 
Dam is a mishmash of working pet lines. Dam's sire has some working titles a few generations back, but dam's bitch line looks weak and probably made up of working pets. 
Looks to be a show/work cross without too much forethought on matching the pedigree properly. 

msvette2u asked: "It seems kind of strange to have such a well-bred stud and "dark horse" dam?
Is this routine?"

The male is not anything particularly special to be honest - standard average to below average WGSL breeding. Look at grandfather's progeny: Progeny list for Yesko von der Vallendarer Höhe. All out of the same kennel - means nobody but the stud's owner (probably) is breeding to this dog. It is a way that many people that don't work or title their dogs can get many breedings out of one dog that is a couple generations removed from the big guns. Think about it this way, you can buy a stud like this for relatively cheap (he is not titled, rated or koered so no training fees to pay for in addition to the dog), use it for several litters, and easily make your money back without having to pay stud fees for your breedings. Furthermore, sire can be advertised as son of "so and so Schh3 VA" going back to "so and so VA famous male" - it's easy to make him seem flashy based on his background. He is certainly better pedigree wise than the dam - too many unknowns and holes in the dam's pedigree and obviously a lot of pet line mixes in her. whitedk9services.com looks to be the sire's owner.

Also - someone is obviously paying attention to this thread. Keiko's picture was recently removed 
This is the sire from another advertisement: http://www.puppytrader.com/sellers/stud-32.html


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm not all that knowledgable about those pedigrees but I can say... dang thats definitely a mixture. Mom's side is clearly where the sable pattern comes into play.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

qbchottu said:


> Also - someone is obviously paying attention to this thread. Keiko's picture was recently removed
> This is the sire from another advertisement: http://www.puppytrader.com/sellers/stud-32.html


Ahhh the power of the internet. Word travels fast.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


>


another photo that was edited(size was 600x800)?...so reposting it again, hoping this one is legal, get out the magnifying glass


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The sire was posted several pages ago as an SG1 male;

SG1 Keiko vom Haus Amoros


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey Carmen....you have a dogs that have a lot of generations of only your kennel ???....anyway....it is difficult to understand the breeding but it is mostly a west SL breeding with some west working.


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Who are the dam's sire and dam? (grandparents on mom's side) Perhaps they are on pedigree and we can fill in the incomplete information on the dog's background.


The Dam's Sire is Boaz Von Whitedheim 
The Dam's Dam is Hannah Elaine Walker


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

Every one in concern of finding my pup's Dam... I searched for 2 hours last night and had no luck. but i found the email to her Dam's owner and going to be getting pictures of the Dam soon! Will post once i upload them!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Whitedheim is the kennel name of Whited K-9 Services in Kent OH.....I have met owner a few times years ago, and knew people who bought and sold dogs from/to him....he keeps many many dogs - a few are titled, many imported, but mostly untitled and used to have a calendar on his website listing all the litters due from 4 different breeds every month....big big commercial business....looks like he sold Boaz as a puppy and someone with open papers is using him for breeding....

As everyone says, this pedigree lacks cohesiveness and direction....it is a pedigree of 2 AKC dogs that someone bred to make $$$ as the OP has commented that she thought about doing. By random breedings such as these, top and bottom and then the OPs dog, negative traits are ignored, not realized and then multiplied and passed forward....in a downward spiral and the resultant pups often are victims of being sold inexpensively to less knowledgable buyers who look at them as disposable....just like the OPs dog that she found in an advertisement by it's previous owner.

Sorry - this is a dog who deserves to be loved and in a good home ~ but not be bred!

Lee


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> Whitedheim is the kennel name of Whited K-9 Services in Kent OH.....I have met owner a few times years ago, and knew people who bought and sold dogs from/to him....he keeps many many dogs - a few are titled, many imported, but mostly untitled and used to have a calendar on his website listing all the litters due from 4 different breeds every month....big big commercial business....looks like he sold Boaz as a puppy and someone with open papers is using him for breeding....
> 
> As everyone says, this pedigree lacks cohesiveness and direction....it is a pedigree of 2 AKC dogs that someone bred to make $$$ as the OP has commented that she thought about doing. By random breedings such as these, top and bottom and then the OPs dog, negative traits are ignored, not realized and then multiplied and passed forward....in a downward spiral and the resultant pups often are victims of being sold inexpensively to less knowledgable buyers who look at them as disposable....just like the OPs dog that she found in an advertisement by it's previous owner.
> 
> ...


Yes, i THOUGHT about breeding.. it was only a THOUGHT! doesnt mean i was GOING to! And how was I supposed to know about her pedigree?? and WHO said that I look at this pup as disposable?!?!?! Seriously?? I have 2 dogs. Both in good health, and will not be "failed" dogs!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sorry - that was NOT meant to be a personal attack - just an observation on the general public who does dispose of dogs....your girl is lucky that you bought her and want to give her a loving home....she is one of the lucky ones! Big commercial operations like the one behind her are just as much to blame for the dogs who get disposed of as the people who dump them out on highways or in shelters....

As a breeder, my comments were observations and conclusions based on years of getting emails about nice looking dogs on their last hours in shelters, on the constant barrage of facebook posts looking for a reprieve for dogs bred by irresponsible people who are in trouble.....

When posts like mine, and many of the others in this thread are made, they are often read by lurkers who are also thinking about breeding - and are thus very general and made in the hopes that the information given helps people other than the OP to make an informed decision about the responsibility of breeding dogs.

Lee


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Nobody said _you_ did. Obviously her previous owners did, however, and God only knows how many siblings of hers, and generations before her.

This is essentially what I was saying in my earlier posts.



> the resultant pups often are victims of being sold inexpensively to less knowledgable buyers who look at them as disposable.


The resultant pups, being viewed "disposable", are the ones sitting in shelters and rescues, or have already been euthanized due to poor temperament and/or health issues. 

The difference between what your dog's parents owners did and what good breeders do, is that good breeders look at all aspects of a dog's make up - health, temperament, working ability (yes there has to be some), and match the breeding prospects up to enhance the breed, to make sure the puppies aren't a genetic mess, temperamentally and health-wise.

This is why so many allergies and other health issues and temperament issues are becoming so rampant in the breed.
AND all breeds are subject to this, not just GSDs.

Please remember Lee was speaking in general and about your dog's parentage and lineage, not you.



> When posts like mine, and many of the others in this thread are made, *they are often read by lurkers *who are also thinking about breeding - and are thus very general and made in the hopes that the information given helps people other than the OP to make an informed decision about the responsibility of breeding dogs.


:thumbup: 
This is how I often post, and it's often misunderstood in the same manner, I can relate!


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> Sorry - that was NOT meant to be a personal attack - just an observation on the general public who does dispose of dogs....your girl is lucky that you bought her and want to give her a loving home....she is one of the lucky ones! Big commercial operations like the one behind her are just as much to blame for the dogs who get disposed of as the people who dump them out on highways or in shelters....
> 
> As a breeder, my comments were observations and conclusions based on years of getting emails about nice looking dogs on their last hours in shelters, on the constant barrage of facebook posts looking for a reprieve for dogs bred by irresponsible people who are in trouble.....
> 
> ...


oh, OK, i must have read that wrong. I apologize 23948732 times..  yes, i do believe she is one of the lucky ones. She was underweight where i got her from. And truthfully if i had the money, id probably build my own kennel and take in all the homeless pets. It really does break my heart.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cliff I have no idea what you are meaning by this in conjunction with this thread ???? "Hey Carmen....you have a dogs that have a lot of generations of only your kennel ???....anyway....it is difficult to understand the breeding but it is mostly a west SL breeding with some west working"

MY line is the rudder -- the certainty - planned for generations ahead - reliable , predictable results -- low risk (conservative)  , building and banking , collecting old heritage working herding genetics (not modern trial) , critically evaluating and selecting for harder to get (deliberately bred for - not random one or two in a litter) traits such as genetic obedience, high hunt search , natural instinctive tracking . I constantly bring in fresh but complementary genetics and attach them , bring them forward to the next generation. There is a plan . 

the pedigree being discussed has no plan whatsoever . No testing -- just producing little doggies with 4 legs , the all important gsd prick (standing upright ears) and color .


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSD<3er212 said:


> oh, OK, i must have read that wrong. I apologize 23948732 times..  yes, i do believe she is one of the lucky ones. She was underweight where i got her from. *And truthfully if i had the money, id probably build my own kennel and take in all the homeless pets. It really does break my heart.*


It is a full time job in and of itself, and not always a happy one.
But you can start with fostering one dog at a time. That's how we got started!


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## GSD<3er212 (Dec 23, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> It is a full time job in and of itself, and not always a happy one.
> But you can start with fostering one dog at a time. That's how we got started!


..thats only if we won the lottery. lol and fostering is actually how we got our first dog!  We fostered him for like a week then me and my husband adopted him. (from Angels for Animals)


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, my point is that a kennel can have generations of their stock and have good dogs....it goes without saying that you need a plan and knowledge to effectuate good results...and of course I don't think this particular breeding possesses that.....but just because a kennel has generations of their stock doesn't tell you anything unless you know the particulars.
I see in this pedigree Weiss Blau dogs....now I don't know if this is Larry and Anna Parker's kennel. I thought their kennel was Weiss Blau, anyway I remember Larry and Anna when they moved to Ala. in the mid seventies from Germany. They had good dogs then, but they were both very knowledgable about the breed and they trained their dogs. I have no doubt they would make good breeding decisions, having talked to them hours on end back then. Again, I don't know that the Weiss Blau is their kennel or not(and I am not saying this is good breeding...lol), but I do know if it is them I would wager their dogs are very sound. I hope this makes sense.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

OP...the truth is, your dog came from someone like you, who purchased a GSD and at 6 months decided it was the greatest thing since sliced bread and that they would breed it. They just weren't "lucky" enough to stumble upon this forum, or accross people that are really involved in the dog world to rip them a new one. If you look up previous "I want to breed my dog" threads, you'll see that it happens so often that people just don't have the patience for it anymore.

The way I try to explain it to new members of my GSD club is that, when you ask someone about your dog, you will get the honest, objective, truth about your dog, with absolutely no sugar coating. They will tell you exactly how they feel about the color, structure, temperament, ect of your dog without any consideration that this is your beloved family pet. We all look at our dogs as family members, some of us as kids, but the dogs are still compared to one another more like property and not as gently as children would be.

Kudos to you for sticking around and learning/understanding why people are saying what they are. No one is judging you, or your dogs ability to be a great family pet, and its ability to love you and be everything you wish it to be, they are just judging it based on the fact that there might be one next door that has something better to offer the dog world as a whole. Once you think of the numbers, and how quickly a genetic line can spiral out of control, you'll understand. If an average litter is 6 puppies, and even 2 of those pups are being bred, in a very small amount of time you have almost exponential growth of a line that isn't proven, isn't exeplory, and might not even be to standard due to the lack of knowledge/experience on the owners/breeders part.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

this thread shouldn't be this long. op, you are not knowledgeable or experienced enough to start a breeding program. sorry to be blunt but this is the way it is. if i was going to start a breeding program, and i am not, i would work for a respected breeder near me for a few years, make some contacts and then see what i would have to offer the breed.


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