# Pit bull kills pregnant owner



## valb

I can't fathom the grief the husband is going through right now:

Pregnant woman in California, Darla Napora ,mauled, killed by own pit bull


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## WarrantsWifey

How devastating..... I can't imagine. My heart aches for him....


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## fuzzybunny

Wow, how sad. So tragic. I can't imagine the grief the husband must be feeling.


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## KSdogowner

valb said:


> I can't fathom the grief the husband is going through right now:
> 
> Pregnant woman in California, Darla Napora ,mauled, killed by own pit bull


Wow, that's awful. Also awful for the other pit bull that apparently was not involved. What a tragedy on so many levels. I wonder what happened to set him off.


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## Rerun

Would be interesting to see the coroner's report. JMHO

#1 cause of death of pregnant women is the father of the child.


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## valb

Rerun said:


> Would be interesting to see the coroner's report. JMHO
> 
> #1 cause of death of pregnant women is the father of the child.


You had to throw that in there. Husband was at work, I'm sure
his movements can be documented, not to mention eye witness
account of how distraught he was.


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## Mom2Shaman

http://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county/ci_18671143
A bit better article.


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## Mom2Shaman

Pregnant Pacifica woman killed by family pit bull
Not a very sympathetic article.


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## uclaman

suscribed


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## chelle

Wow that is... horrific.


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## lrodptl

I always wonder in these cases if there were any signs,I would think there must be.


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## PaddyD

Just
Plain 
Sad


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## JPF

lrodptl said:


> I always wonder in these cases if there were any signs,I would think there must be.


exactly...there are always signs. In very rare cases you may just have a psychotic dog but even then they would probably shows signs of not being normal. Its always the same with these cases, and it makes you wonder about the awareness of the owners.


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## sagelfn

This is so sad


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## KSdogowner

JPF said:


> exactly...there are always signs. In very rare cases you may just have a psychotic dog but even then they would probably shows signs of not being normal.


Seems these owners also do not fit the usual profile of irresponsible Pitbull owners. Sounds like they loved their dogs and more than likely treated them well. I hope they can find out more specifics so poor Taz (I think that's the other dog's name) will not become another casualty as well. Gosh, such a horrible situation. I feel so bad for the entire family and also the baby that never had a chance of life at all.


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## JulieBays

Everyone, don't get mad at me but are we sure it was the dog? I am biased, I admit but I feel like we don't have enough information to form an opinion. I do feel sad for every species involved. It is just sad.


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## valb

KSdogowner said:


> Seems these owners also do not fit the usual profile of irresponsible Pitbull owners. Sounds like they loved their dogs and more than likely treated them well. I hope they can find out more specifics so poor Taz (I think that's the other dog's name) will not become another casualty as well. Gosh, such a horrible situation. I feel so bad for the entire family and also the baby that never had a chance of life at all.


Well the dog that attacked her wasn't neutered. Don't know
about the other one, but that could be considered irresponsible
in some cases.

Julie B., our early reports on local news seem to indicate that
the coroner is sure they are dog bite wounds.


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## PaddyD

valb said:


> Well the dog that attacked her wasn't neutered. Don't know
> about the other one, but that could be considered irresponsible
> in some cases.
> 
> Julie B., our early reports on local news seem to indicate that
> the coroner is sure they are dog bite wounds.


Neutered schmootered.... that has nothing to do with a dog's temperament.


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## JulieBays

valb said:


> Well the dog that attacked her wasn't neutered. Don't know
> about the other one, but that could be considered irresponsible
> in some cases.
> 
> Julie B., our early reports on local news seem to indicate that
> the coroner is sure they are dog bite wounds.


I just can't imagine it though. So sad.


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## JulieBays

What if she died from some complication like a heart attack and the dog was trying to pull her? I know I am being stupid but I am a prosecutor and have to look at all scenarios. I hate unanswered questions!!


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## selzer

valb said:


> Well the dog that attacked her wasn't neutered. Don't know
> about the other one, but that could be considered irresponsible
> in some cases.
> 
> Julie B., our early reports on local news seem to indicate that
> the coroner is sure they are dog bite wounds.


It has nothing to do with responsibility. Many responsible people choose not to neuter.


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## KSdogowner

PaddyD said:


> Neutered schmootered.... that has nothing to do with a dog's temperament.


I agree. Even though I totally agree with neutering/spaying our dogs, I don't think a dog owner can be defined irresponsible simply because they don't believe in neutering/spaying their dogs.


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## x0emiroxy0x

*I would like to see a picture of the dog that attacked this poor woman, more often than not the dogs in question are not true Pitbull Terriers but rather some sort of mastiff mixed with Pitbull, Cane Corso and a host of others. I've owned Pitbull Terriers for over 50 years and none of them was even remotely human aggressive.*

***That was a quote from the article.

If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull. Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.


And what is with all these people asking 'how do we know that happened' ??? If it was a german shepherd or a rottweiler, GSD and rott owners would say "Wow, that was a bad representative of the breed. This really sucks for us. Let's prove to society how great our breed really is and that this was a fluke" (Thats what I think atleast)...but pitt owners just DENY DENY DENY.

I am so tired of this DENIAL and misrepresentation of facts by pitbull owners. Who cares if every pitt you ever met was nice? Every pit that attacks someone, its owners says "I never would have known...she was so sweet!" The American Temperament Test is a load of BS and the only thing it proves is how much a dog compares to the breed standard, NOT Aggression!!!

*KNOW* that your dog has the potential to *KILL* and be PROACTIVE! Do I let Rocky near children? NO! Because I know they scare him, and I am not ONE HUNDRED percent sure that he wouldn't fear bite if one poked him in the eye or hit him.

My brothers pitbull is the SWEETEST SMARTEST dog ever. But does he let his dog off leash in parks?? NO. Does he let it play with unfamiliar dogs? NO. Does he always ANTICIPATE? YES.

Be responsible for your dog. STOP BLAMING AMERICA FOR "PICKING ON" PITBULLS AND REALIZE YOUR DOG COULD POSSIBLY BE DANGEROUS.

I know all the pitbull people will attack me for this but I don't care because I am fed up with this denial denial denial.

"I bet the pitbull attacked her because she was mean to it every day and beat him every day and he lived in the backyard and had no treats and no food"....NO....It is because it was IN HIS BLOOD.

I don't think ALL pitbulls have the bad blood...but there is no way to prove if yours does or doesnt!


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## Rerun

valb said:


> You had to throw that in there. Husband was at work, I'm sure
> his movements can be documented, not to mention eye witness
> account of how distraught he was.


Don't know why you think it's a bad thing to mention it. It's reality. Certainly the husband was at work, according to the article. I can assure you the detectives assigned to this case will be investigating what he does, is he working alone, with others, did he step out for any period of time, what about his lunch break - how long and can he be accounted for. Time of death - morning before he left for work, etc.
Just because someone says "they were at work" doesn't mean they weren't responsible for the death of the individual.

How distraught someone is has absolutely nothing to do with whether they killed the person or not. Many people are very, very, good actors.


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## valb

PaddyD said:


> Neutered schmootered.... that has nothing to do with a dog's temperament.


I didn't say it did, just speaking to what SOME might consider
an irresponsible owner.

Ditto Selzer and KSd here. I'm not speaking for myself, I'm
just saying what might come up, and what the general 
perception can be in these cases.

(Coming from a woman whose father has an 11 year old BC
mix who never had the operation, never wanders, never sired
any offspring)


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## GSD84

JulieBays said:


> What if she died from some complication like a heart attack and the dog was trying to pull her? I know I am being stupid but I am a prosecutor and have to look at all scenarios. I hate unanswered questions!!


I'm with you. And on top of that this is the media. They will twist and turn a story to fit their ideas.


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## Rerun

x0emiroxy0x said:


> *I would like to see a picture of the dog that attacked this poor woman, more often than not the dogs in question are not true Pitbull Terriers but rather some sort of mastiff mixed with Pitbull, Cane Corso and a host of others. I've owned Pitbull Terriers for over 50 years and none of them was even remotely human aggressive.*
> 
> ***That was a quote from the article.
> 
> If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull. Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.
> 
> 
> And what is with all these people asking 'how do we know that happened' ??? If it was a german shepherd or a rottweiler, GSD and rott owners would say "Wow, that was a bad representative of the breed. This really sucks for us. Let's prove to society how great our breed really is and that this was a fluke" (Thats what I think atleast)...but pitt owners just DENY DENY DENY.
> 
> I am so tired of this DENIAL and misrepresentation of facts by pitbull owners. Who cares if every pitt you ever met was nice? Every pit that attacks someone, its owners says "I never would have known...she was so sweet!" The American Temperament Test is a load of BS and the only thing it proves is how much a dog compares to the breed standard, NOT Aggression!!!
> 
> *KNOW* that your dog has the potential to *KILL* and be PROACTIVE! Do I let Rocky near children? NO! Because I know they scare him, and I am not ONE HUNDRED percent sure that he wouldn't fear bite if one poked him in the eye or hit him.
> 
> My brothers pitbull is the SWEETEST SMARTEST dog ever. But does he let his dog off leash in parks?? NO. Does he let it play with unfamiliar dogs? NO. Does he always ANTICIPATE? YES.
> 
> Be responsible for your dog. STOP BLAMING AMERICA FOR "PICKING ON" PITBULLS AND REALIZE YOUR DOG COULD POSSIBLY BE DANGEROUS.
> 
> I know all the pitbull people will attack me for this but I don't care because I am fed up with this denial denial denial.
> 
> "I bet the pitbull attacked her because she was mean to it every day and beat him every day and he lived in the backyard and had no treats and no food"....NO....It is because it was IN HIS BLOOD.
> 
> I don't think ALL pitbulls have the bad blood...but there is no way to prove if yours does or doesnt!


uh, well clearly you have a problem with pits. 

Personally speaking, I'm not, never have been, and never will be, the owner of a pit. Nothing against them, they're just not my kinda dog. So my statements have absolutely nothing to do with trying to "defend the breed" and my statements would be exactly the same if it was any other breed, including a german shepherd.


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## valb

Rerun said:


> Don't know why you think it's a bad thing to mention it. It's reality. Certainly the husband was at work, according to the article. I can assure you the detectives assigned to this case will be investigating what he does, is he working alone, with others, did he step out for any period of time, what about his lunch break - how long and can he be accounted for. Time of death - morning before he left for work, etc.
> Just because someone says "they were at work" doesn't mean they weren't responsible for the death of the individual.
> 
> How distraught someone is has absolutely nothing to do with whether they killed the person or not. Many people are very, very, good actors.


It just seemed a little crass, to me. And it's not like I didn't know
already the statistics on pregnant women and who their killers
are statistically most likely to be. I would think that's fairly
common knowledge by now, as well as that the detectives will
be investigating AND that many people are very good actors.


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## JulieBays

I'm not saying that the dog didn't do it. What I am saying is sometimes bias on the coroners part can cause assumptions without further investigation. For instance, we have a pitbull...we have blood and bite marks. That, in and of itself, is enough for some people to make assumptions. It is possible that the coroner never bothered to check for underlying conditions, the heart, a stroke! Pregnant women have strokes. The dog panics. Like I said, we don't have enough information. I am just trying to give another side to a possible explanation. I am not trying to take up for a possible dog that killed his owner.


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## Syaoransbear

What a truly horrible tragedy. A man loses his wife and his future child at the hands of their(now deceased) beloved dog. This is so sad. I just can't imagine what he's going through. 

Maybe this is one of those cases where the owners ignored the signs of an unbalanced dog. But perhaps the first sign of trouble was also the last one. I wonder if the dog just responded poorly to the wife's pregnancy. We can't forget that our dogs are still instinctual animals that respond to changes in our hormones.


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## Rerun

JulieBays said:


> I'm not saying that the dog didn't do it. What I am saying is sometimes bias on the coroners part can cause assumptions without further investigation. For instance, we have a pitbull...we have blood and bite marks. That, in and of itself, is enough for some people to make assumptions. It is possible that the coroner never bothered to check for underlying conditions, the heart, a stroke! Pregnant women have strokes. The dog panics. Like I said, we don't have enough information. I am just trying to give another side to a possible explanation. I am not trying to take up for a possible dog that killed his owner.


 
LOL you seriously believe the coroner isn't going to do a full and complete autopsy? Yes, the coroner certainly will. They will have to make every effort to verify a cause of death. They can't just look at bite wounds and say "ah, yes I see what happened here." They have to verify that the bite wounds actually caused the death of the individual - IE: the bite severed a main artery in x location and caused the individual to bleed out. And yes, one can tell if the bite happened pre vs post mortum...If the bites didn't cause the individual to die, they'll have to keep digging (no pun intended) and find out what actually caused the death.


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## valb

JulieB, I understand. This is very new, so I'm sure the full
coroner's reporting (including toxicology, etc.) will come
out as well as necropsy on the dog, and maybe we will know
more.


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## dazedtrucker

x0emiroxy0x said:


> *I would like to see a picture of the dog that attacked this poor woman, more often than not the dogs in question are not true Pitbull Terriers but rather some sort of mastiff mixed with Pitbull, Cane Corso and a host of others. I've owned Pitbull Terriers for over 50 years and none of them was even remotely human aggressive.*
> 
> ***That was a quote from the article.
> 
> If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull. Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.
> 
> 
> And what is with all these people asking 'how do we know that happened' ??? If it was a german shepherd or a rottweiler, GSD and rott owners would say "Wow, that was a bad representative of the breed. This really sucks for us. Let's prove to society how great our breed really is and that this was a fluke" (Thats what I think atleast)...but pitt owners just DENY DENY DENY.
> 
> I am so tired of this DENIAL and misrepresentation of facts by pitbull owners. Who cares if every pitt you ever met was nice? Every pit that attacks someone, its owners says "I never would have known...she was so sweet!" The American Temperament Test is a load of BS and the only thing it proves is how much a dog compares to the breed standard, NOT Aggression!!!
> 
> *KNOW* that your dog has the potential to *KILL* and be PROACTIVE! Do I let Rocky near children? NO! Because I know they scare him, and I am not ONE HUNDRED percent sure that he wouldn't fear bite if one poked him in the eye or hit him.
> 
> My brothers pitbull is the SWEETEST SMARTEST dog ever. But does he let his dog off leash in parks?? NO. Does he let it play with unfamiliar dogs? NO. Does he always ANTICIPATE? YES.
> 
> Be responsible for your dog. STOP BLAMING AMERICA FOR "PICKING ON" PITBULLS AND REALIZE YOUR DOG COULD POSSIBLY BE DANGEROUS.
> 
> I know all the pitbull people will attack me for this but I don't care because I am fed up with this denial denial denial.
> 
> "I bet the pitbull attacked her because she was mean to it every day and beat him every day and he lived in the backyard and had no treats and no food"....NO....It is because it was IN HIS BLOOD.
> 
> I don't think ALL pitbulls have the bad blood...but there is no way to prove if yours does or doesnt!


I agree.
Will people ever admit the majority of pitbulls are unpredictable and have a tendency for violence? I mean seriously. Yeah yeah yeah...all breeds can attack. Not all breeds are bred exclusively for that "talent" like pits have been. Oh well. Breed bans suck. (I got bit by a breed ban myself with a GSD.) However, there's a problem with this breed that needs to be addressed somehow.

The sign at our dog park here.


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## Betty

How horrible.


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## JulieBays

Rerun said:


> LOL you seriously believe the coroner isn't going to do a full and complete autopsy? Yes, the coroner certainly will. They will have to make every effort to verify a cause of death. They can't just look at bite wounds and say "ah, yes I see what happened here." They have to verify that the bite wounds actually caused the death of the individual - IE: the bite severed a main artery in x location and caused the individual to bleed out. And yes, one can tell if the bite happened pre vs post mortum...If the bites didn't cause the individual to die, they'll have to keep digging (no pun intended) and find out what actually caused the death.


Apparently, you haven't lived in Oklahoma with our history. I hope they do their job according to CSI.  That is their job. If you think that Medical Examiners always do their job right, well, it's not true. They don't. They are people. They make mistakes and assumptions. I am not knocking Medical Examiners. I once considered the field. You just have to be honest with emotions in these situations.


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## Chicagocanine

x0emiroxy0x said:


> *I would like to see a picture of the dog that attacked this poor woman, more often than not the dogs in question are not true Pitbull Terriers but rather some sort of mastiff mixed with Pitbull, Cane Corso and a host of others. I've owned Pitbull Terriers for over 50 years and none of them was even remotely human aggressive.*
> 
> ***That was a quote from the article.
> 
> If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull. Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.
> 
> 
> And what is with all these people asking 'how do we know that happened' ??? If it was a german shepherd or a rottweiler, GSD and rott owners would say "Wow, that was a bad representative of the breed. This really sucks for us. Let's prove to society how great our breed really is and that this was a fluke" (Thats what I think atleast)...but pitt owners just DENY DENY DENY.


The reason is because a LOT of dogs are mistaken for pit bulls, plus the term "pit bull" is not the same as saying "German Shepherd" in that "pit bull" is a description of a TYPE or look of dog, rather than a specific breed of dog. The term "pit bull" is applied to any dog with a short coat, stocky body and wide head. This makes the statistics unreliable as they may call the dog a "pit bull" when it could actually be one of several breeds called by this name, mainly American Pit Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and American Staffordshire Terrier OR it could be one of the other breeds commonly mistaken for a "pit bull" such as Boxer, American Bulldog, Bull Terrier, Cane Corso, Argentine Dogo, Fila, Bullmastiff, etc... Or maybe it was a mix of one of those breeds, or a completely unrelated dog who happens to have a somewhat wide head and stocky body-- I've seen many other types of dogs mistaken for a "pit bull" including Labs, Rotties, my foster Chinese Shar-Pei, a Rat Terrier mix...
Can the statistics really be trusted when they list "pit bull" bites as if they were all due to one breed, when there are so many different breeds that name has been used for or mistaken for? Can you imagine if they listed all the dog bites from any large dog with pointy ears as a "German Shepherd attack"?

The media also often gets it wrong... Here is a list of dog bites where the dogs were mistakenly identified as "pit bulls" in the press, when they actually were not:
Punish the Deed, not the Breed!


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## krystyne73

What a sad tragedy. Although I do agree, many of the so called pit attacks are often mixes or another breed altogether. I try not to focus on the breed but rather the reasons behind the attack. 
Just seems like things aren't adding up in this case but there isn't much to go on. who knows, but very sad.


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## Emoore

How we do love a sensational story. . . . how many soldiers died while we were talking about Amy Winehouse? How many little kids died while the papers covered Kaylee Anthony? And how many spouses/boyfriends/family members have killed pregnant ladies since the last dog killed a pregnant lady? We love to over-inflate the sensational and ignore the common. Nobody ever proposes a breed ban on fathers. Or war for that matter.


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## selzer

dazedtrucker said:


> I agree.
> Will people ever admit the majority of pitbulls are unpredictable and have a tendency for violence? I mean seriously. Yeah yeah yeah...all breeds can attack. Not all breeds are bred exclusively for that "talent" like pits have been. Oh well. Breed bans suck. (I got bit by a breed ban myself with a GSD.) However, there's a problem with this breed that needs to be addressed somehow.
> 
> The sign at our dog park here.


If you scroll down to the breeding section, you will find breeders that feel that only GSDs capable of being willing and able to protect/attack, continue to attack through the unknown to him helper waving and slightly striking the dog with a baton. 

Go further to the beginnings of our breed, a GSD had to be big and bad enough to protect the flock against humans and wolves. 

Exactly what you wrote, someone else might write about GSDs. 

If the coroner determines that the woman died as a result of a dog attack, I think this is bad for all interesting dog breeds.


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## Jessiewessie99

x0emiroxy0x said:


> *I would like to see a picture of the dog that attacked this poor woman, more often than not the dogs in question are not true Pitbull Terriers but rather some sort of mastiff mixed with Pitbull, Cane Corso and a host of others. I've owned Pitbull Terriers for over 50 years and none of them was even remotely human aggressive.*
> 
> ***That was a quote from the article.
> 
> If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull. Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.
> 
> 
> And what is with all these people asking 'how do we know that happened' ??? If it was a german shepherd or a rottweiler, GSD and rott owners would say "Wow, that was a bad representative of the breed. This really sucks for us. Let's prove to society how great our breed really is and that this was a fluke" (Thats what I think atleast)...but pitt owners just DENY DENY DENY.
> 
> I am so tired of this DENIAL and misrepresentation of facts by pitbull owners. Who cares if every pitt you ever met was nice? Every pit that attacks someone, its owners says "I never would have known...she was so sweet!" The American Temperament Test is a load of BS and the only thing it proves is how much a dog compares to the breed standard, NOT Aggression!!!
> 
> *KNOW* that your dog has the potential to *KILL* and be PROACTIVE! Do I let Rocky near children? NO! Because I know they scare him, and I am not ONE HUNDRED percent sure that he wouldn't fear bite if one poked him in the eye or hit him.
> 
> My brothers pitbull is the SWEETEST SMARTEST dog ever. But does he let his dog off leash in parks?? NO. Does he let it play with unfamiliar dogs? NO. Does he always ANTICIPATE? YES.
> 
> Be responsible for your dog. STOP BLAMING AMERICA FOR "PICKING ON" PITBULLS AND REALIZE YOUR DOG COULD POSSIBLY BE DANGEROUS.
> 
> I know all the pitbull people will attack me for this but I don't care because I am fed up with this denial denial denial.
> 
> "I bet the pitbull attacked her because she was mean to it every day and beat him every day and he lived in the backyard and had no treats and no food"....NO....It is because it was IN HIS BLOOD.
> 
> I don't think ALL pitbulls have the bad blood...but there is no way to prove if yours does or doesnt!


Clearly you don't know anything about pitbulls and might have something against them.It says in the breed standard for the American Pitbull Terrier that they are NOT supposed to be human aggressive. Also, there are quite a few breeds that will fall under the pitbull category such as the Staffordshire bull terrier, American Staffordshire terrier, American Bully, a mix of those breeds, a boxer mix, mastiff mixes(I have seen purebred boxers and purebred mastiffs.) and also the general public doesn't even know what a pitbull actually is, let alone know what they are like. Anything that looks like any of the dogs I listed will more than likely be labeled a pitbull. Most AC agencies don't know what a pitbull is.

Also statistics are NOT very accurate. I don't trust them either, and neither should you. It has been shown that they aren't.Also EDUCATED AND RESPONSIBLE Pitbull owners are NOT in denial either. They know their breed and will defend it, and will try to represent the breed properly.

ANY DOG OF ANY BREED HAS THE POTENTIAL TO KILL. NOT JUST PITBULLS. Did you know that Pitbull breeds were known as Nanny dogs? Its NOT in their blood to attack and kill humans. You are saying EXACTLY what an uneducated pro-BSL person would say. I have heard of MANY stories where there is a dog attack that media automatically says its a pibtull then later say it was a boxer mix, GSD mix, husky mix etc. In the threads titled "What breeds have your GSDs been mistaken for?" and a few have posted Pitbull. Believe it or not, the general public is that stupid. Also Lab Mixes are also been labeled Pit mixes.


Get your facts straight, learn about the breed. Pitbull is a look, not a breed. There are MANY breeds that our labeled Pitbull. Its not in their blood to attack and kill a human. Stop trusting those "statistics" your read. Go meet RESPONSIBLE AND EDUCATED owners and breeders of APBTs, American Staffordshire terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, go to a Pitbull rescue. Educate yourself.


Believe or not, people have said and continue to say the EXACT same thing you are saying about GSDs. So stop being a hypocrite and educate yourself.


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## Lilie

My heart goes out to the poor woman who died, her husband and her unborn child. My heart goes out to her family. What a horrible, horrible thing to happen.


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## CookieTN

Sad.

In response to a previous post--
Actually, in ATTS temperament testing, the American Pit Bull Terrier scored higher than Golden Retrievers. And German Shepherd Dogs.
ATTS Breed Statistics | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.
Pit Bull owners (responsible ones who know the breed, anyway) will be the first to tell you that these dogs are not all fluff and rainbows. But they can also tell you why they are not horribleohemgeemonsters. For one thing, they were not bred to be human aggressive, though dog fighters have bred them to be dog-aggressive. Some do get along with other dogs quite well, though.
In the past, people used to view GSDs with the same condescending attitude that is generally thrown towards Pit Bulls now.


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## Mom2Shaman

My husband and I discussed this story at dinner. The problem with pits (exceptionally so in California) is that pits have gotten the "bad dog" reputation and thus certain attitudes/types of owners have selectively bred aggression into them and treated them environmentally to enocourage that trait to flourish. If you removed all those owners with that attitude and selectively bred by dedicated professionals for standards and personality as many other breeds do (incl. GSD), the pits themselves would not be bad. However, as it stands, you don't know what's behind the local pits available. There is pretty much a lack of paperwork by those common pit BYB in CA. You just don't know. You couldn't trace anything. The personality genetic traits are skewed way off normal. It's a real shame that this has been done to this breed. I am not against pits, I am against the crummy people that feel they are status to be as "bad dog" as possible and have pursued that line of breeding and evironment.


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## chelle

x0emiroxy0x said:


> *I would like to see a picture of the dog that attacked this poor woman, more often than not the dogs in question are not true Pitbull Terriers but rather some sort of mastiff mixed with Pitbull, Cane Corso and a host of others. I've owned Pitbull Terriers for over 50 years and none of them was even remotely human aggressive.*
> 
> ***That was a quote from the article.
> 
> If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull. Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.
> 
> 
> And what is with all these people asking 'how do we know that happened' ??? If it was a german shepherd or a rottweiler, GSD and rott owners would say "Wow, that was a bad representative of the breed. This really sucks for us. Let's prove to society how great our breed really is and that this was a fluke" (Thats what I think atleast)...but pitt owners just DENY DENY DENY.
> 
> I am so tired of this DENIAL and misrepresentation of facts by pitbull owners. Who cares if every pitt you ever met was nice? Every pit that attacks someone, its owners says "I never would have known...she was so sweet!" The American Temperament Test is a load of BS and the only thing it proves is how much a dog compares to the breed standard, NOT Aggression!!!
> 
> *KNOW* that your dog has the potential to *KILL* and be PROACTIVE! Do I let Rocky near children? NO! Because I know they scare him, and I am not ONE HUNDRED percent sure that he wouldn't fear bite if one poked him in the eye or hit him.
> 
> My brothers pitbull is the SWEETEST SMARTEST dog ever. But does he let his dog off leash in parks?? NO. Does he let it play with unfamiliar dogs? NO. Does he always ANTICIPATE? YES.
> 
> Be responsible for your dog. STOP BLAMING AMERICA FOR "PICKING ON" PITBULLS AND REALIZE YOUR DOG COULD POSSIBLY BE DANGEROUS.
> 
> I know all the pitbull people will attack me for this but I don't care because I am fed up with this denial denial denial.
> 
> "I bet the pitbull attacked her because she was mean to it every day and beat him every day and he lived in the backyard and had no treats and no food"....NO....It is because it was IN HIS BLOOD.
> 
> I don't think ALL pitbulls have the bad blood...but there is no way to prove if yours does or doesnt!


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## chelle

I'm also quite sick and tired of the whole PitBulls are awesome, sweet, kind, loving, protective babies who would never hurt a fly arguments. Ok I'll concede, properly bred, raised and trained Pits may be exactly that, but anymore, all the gee-I-wanna-tough-dog idiots just have to get a Pit and those frikkin Pits attack and kill. Sure, many dogs can attack and kill other dogs. Yet the **** poorly bred Pits take the cake here. I try to keep an open mind on any breed, but if there's a Pit near my dogs, we are going the other way. Not going to risk whether the owner is wise or a is a gee-I-want-a-tough-dog-that-I'm-too-lazy-to-train-well type. I'm also tired of the bad news stories about Pits killing this, that or the other. Maybe they do get more media attention that others, I'll concede that could be true. But I still won't let my dogs near a Pit.


----------



## codmaster

valb said:


> Well the dog that attacked her *wasn't neutered*. Don't know
> about the other one, but that could be considered irresponsible
> in some cases.
> 
> Julie B., our early reports on local news seem to indicate that
> the coroner is sure they are dog bite wounds.


Are you serious? That has got nothing to do with it whatsoever!


----------



## ShenzisMom

I'm also quite sick and tired of the whole people are awesome, sweet, kind, loving, protective babies who would never hurt a fly arguments. Ok I'll concede, properly bred, raised and trained People may be exactly that, but anymore, all the gee-I-wanna-be-a-tough-punk idiots just have to get a gun and those frikkin People attack and kill. Sure, many people can attack and kill other people. Yet the **** poorly bred People take the cake here. I try to keep an open mind on anything, but if there's a Person near my dogs, we are going the other way. Not going to risk whether the person is wise or a is a gee-I-want-a-tough-gun-that-I'm-too-lazy-to-train-well type. I'm also tired of the bad news stories about People killing this, that or the other. Maybe they do get more media attention that others, I'll concede that could be true. But I still won't let my dogs near a Person.

Sorry, I fixed it so that it is true for me. I'm sure others will insert chows, akitas, GSDs, Dobermanns, etc into it. But I will always stand by my version.


----------



## CookieTN

I dunno. I've never owned a Pit Bull (too high energy for me), but all the ones I can recall meeting have been nice and get along with people quite well. One of my favorite dogs to meet, actually. (I can say less about how many seem to be good with other dogs, my dog has only met one once.) There are plenty of bad owners in existence, definitely, but maybe my area has more good, or at least okay, owners than bad owners or something.
Two of the dogs from the Micheal Vick case became certified therapy dogs. I believe most of the rest went on to get homes, as well, despite their bad past.


----------



## codmaster

x0emiroxy0x said:


> *If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull.*
> 
> You can't be serious, can you? You are playing a joke, right?
> 
> Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.
> 
> *Let's see - Mastiff = 150 lbs or bigger ? Pit bull 40-50 maybe give or take a little. YUP! Them dogs are so look a like! *
> 
> ..........................
> I am so tired of this DENIAL and misrepresentation of facts by pitbull owners. *Who cares if every pitt you ever met was nice?*
> 
> *That would be a LOT better than every GSD that I have met, BTW!*
> 
> Every pit that attacks someone, its owners says "I never would have known...she was so sweet!" The American Temperament Test is a load of BS and the only thing it proves is how much a dog compares to *the breed standard,* NOT Aggression!!! *Why don't you read the breed standard before you comment on it - generally human aggression is not in them!*
> 
> *KNOW* that your dog has the potential to *KILL* and be PROACTIVE! Do I let Rocky near children? NO! Because I know they scare him, and I am not ONE HUNDRED percent sure that he wouldn't fear bite if one poked him in the eye or hit him.
> 
> 
> *Must be in Rocky's blood as well, huh?*
> *.......................... *
> 
> I know all the pitbull people will attack me for this but I don't care because I am fed up with this denial denial denial.
> 
> "I bet the pitbull attacked her because she was mean to it every day and beat him every day and he lived in the backyard and had no treats and no food"....NO....It is because* it was IN HIS BLOOD.*
> 
> *What the heck do you mean by "in his blood"? Not in her blood evidently (the older female in the story)!*
> 
> I don't think ALL pitbulls have *the bad blood*...but there is no way to prove if yours does or doesnt!


Your message seems to based on your very evident bias (and a great lack of knowledge!) of pitbulls!

Have you ever read the standard for the pit bull terrier Or for that matter the Staffordshire terrier or the Bull terrier? Which exact breed are you referring to anyway?


----------



## codmaster

Mom2Shaman said:


> My husband and I discussed this story at dinner. The problem with pits (exceptionally so in California) is that pits have gotten the "bad dog" reputation and thus certain attitudes/types of owners have selectively bred aggression into them and treated them environmentally to enocourage that trait to flourish. If you removed all those owners with that attitude and selectively bred by dedicated professionals for standards and personality as many other breeds do (incl. GSD), the pits themselves would not be bad. However, as it stands, you don't know what's behind the local pits available. There is pretty much a lack of paperwork by those common pit BYB in CA. You just don't know. You couldn't trace anything. The personality genetic traits are skewed way off normal. It's a real shame that this has been done to this breed. I am not against pits, I am against the crummy people that feel they are status to be as "bad dog" as possible and have pursued that line of breeding and evironment.


Please don't try to "TAR" all of the pits in CA with such a braod accusation that you make - ALL of the pits that I have met in CA have been extremely nice gentle dogs - even the 65 lb adult male who used to love to play with my 9 mo GSD male puppy.

Shows just a touch of breed bias it seems!


----------



## Mom2Shaman

Come to Fresno, Visalia, Tulare, and Delano. You would realize just how badly bred and treated our local pits are. 

It is not breed bias to say as I did above " I am not against pits, I am against the crummy people that feel they are status to be as "bad dog" as possible and have pursued that line of breeding and environment." Unless you count breed bias as bias against the PEOPLE who are doing a disservice to this breed. That would be true.


----------



## dosovm

cant blame a dog when we dont know the whole story. any dog hit hard enough will protect himself or his pack. i've seen a dog get hit by his owner really hard with a stick and that was also the first time i've seen that awesome dog mad.


----------



## CookieTN

dosovm said:


> cant blame a dog when we dont know the whole story. dog could have been protecting himself or the other dog. i've seen a dog get hit by his owner really hard with a stick and that was the first time i've seen that awesome dog mad.


I agree.


----------



## robinhuerta

No one should be pointing blame or speculation at anyone or anything......
This is a tragedy affecting entire families of loved ones...

My sympathy for all those involved....


----------



## CookieTN

robinhuerta said:


> No one should be pointing blame or speculation at anyone or anything......
> This is a tragedy affecting entire families of loved ones...
> 
> My sympathy for all those involved....


I was hesitant to post here because it seemed almost like belittling what happened, but one of my biggest peeves is...how do I say this without seeming rude.......the bad rap that Pit Bulls have, which I feel is undeserved. I felt like I had to say something. I apologize if I made a wrong move.
I don't think speculation is necessarily a bad thing, though.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

robinhuerta said:


> No one should be pointing blame or speculation at anyone or anything......
> This is a tragedy affecting entire families of loved ones...
> 
> My sympathy for all those involved....


I agree. I just get too involved when it comes to things I am very personal with.


----------



## Snickelfritz

I won't comment on all the other posts. All I can say is this is so, so sad. That poor woman, her husband, and her unborn baby.  I owned a Pit Bull Female, she was an awesome dog. I couldn't imagine her doing that to me, or anyone else. 

That poor poor family.  May her and the baby RIP.


----------



## MountainGSDs

Mom2Shaman said:


> Come to Fresno, Visalia, Tulare, and Delano. You would realize just how badly bred and treated our local pits are.
> 
> It is not breed bias to say as I did above " I am not against pits, I am against the crummy people that feel they are status to be as "bad dog" as possible and have pursued that line of breeding and environment." Unless you count breed bias as bias against the PEOPLE who are doing a disservice to this breed. That would be true.


 
Exactly. People have their heads in the sand when it comes to the bully breeds and mixes. Sure there are tons of great ones but the poor breeding practices and their popularity is what caused this. People chant, don't blame the breed when in fact in many cases it is the breed not the owner. There is a thread going "why breed only titled shepherds?" well this is one reason. We don't want to regress.
How many were around 25/35 years ago when shepherds were the bad boys of the dog world. We got a bad rap about temperament and health. It's gotten way better because of responsible breeding and good owners, Then the rotties and dobbies took our place and now it the bullies.

Breed the strongest, weakest nerved and most aggressive to the same and you get what you get.


----------



## sparra

25/35 years ago when shepherds were the bad boys.....was there *ever* a case in which a GSD turned on its owner and killed??
This is just so sad.....makes me sick to the stomach. That poor lady and her baby and of course the husband....how could you ever get over something like this.


----------



## MountainGSDs

sparra said:


> 25/35 years ago when shepherds were the bad boys.....was there *ever* a case in which a GSD turned on its owner and killed??
> This is just so sad.....makes me sick to the stomach. That poor lady and her baby and of course the husband....how could you ever get over something like this.


35 years ago local news from across the country was unheard of. I had black and white tv then with 3 channels and a couple VHS channels and no internet.
There was always rumor back then of GSDs turning on their owners and they all had HD.
Good press, proper and selective breeding changed the perspective people had of shepherds. Ban the good pit breeders do that? Not till they admit there is a problem.


----------



## valb

codmaster said:


> Are you serious? That has got nothing to do with it whatsoever!


Please go back and read (or RE-) my posts #17 and #25 in this
thread.


----------



## codmaster

valb said:


> Please go back and read (or RE-) my posts #17 and #25 in this
> thread.


Sorry, no time!

What did you say there that made more sense?


----------



## selzer

There was a case where the father was outside with the GSD pup and was mowing the lawn. The pup was afraid, so he put it in the house. The mother thought the dog was outside and the baby was on the floor. Dog killed baby. GSD. It happens. Two saint bernard dogs that played all the time with their five year old neighbor killed him one day. Sad. 

I have a few shepherd scars, and a scar from a Newfoundland when I was ten years old. A Newf! I have no scars from pit bull dogs. There is a little black poodle that used to bite me regularly as I delivered papers. But things were indeed different 30 years ago. 

My brother told me he does not want to come and find that my dogs killed me. PALEEZE! Not happening.

But dogs do sometimes get a little wierded out when someone is pregnant. I have heard of that anyway, never experienced it. 

This dog killed her, not some neighbor kid. I am wondering what people mean when they say people need to realize their dogs are dangerous, their dog can kill. Your dog is dangerous, and yes, it can kill. What will that make you do differently when you are home alone with it? 

Pits are about 35-50 pounds. I just do not know how a healthy adult could let a dog that size kill them. Maybe she passed out or something and the dog freaked out. Who knows. I would find this more likely if the dog was a Cane Corso, Presa Canario, Doggo Argentino, Even a Bull-Mastiff or mix of any of them. I would be Very surprised if a mastiff did this, just because the breed itself was never intended to fight or bite. It protected by holding a burglar until the owner/handler/police could collect them. But not biting. However, with popularity and lack of outlets for energy and intelligence any dog breed can become warped.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

codmaster said:


> Sorry, no time!
> 
> What did you say there that made more sense?


She doesn't have to repeat or quote herself I am sure you will find time later to go back and read if it's important enough.


----------



## Cara Fusinato

I am sad for the husband, I am sad for what the last moments of that girl must have been (speculating here her disbelief the dog was doing that, the pain, the panic for herself and her unborn child), I am sad a dog lost its life and another dog is having its life torn apart at this moment. I am sad that this is another notch in the pittie ban arsenal. Not knowing any of the circumstances of the dog's past, the owners' relationship with it, or the exact reason this happened. . . I am really sad.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Mom2Shaman said:


> My husband and I discussed this story at dinner. *The problem with pits (exceptionally so in California) is that pits have gotten the "bad dog" reputation and thus certain attitudes/types of owners have selectively bred aggression into them and treated them environmentally to enocourage that trait to flourish*. If you removed all those owners with that attitude and selectively bred by dedicated professionals for standards and personality as many other breeds do (incl. GSD), the pits themselves would not be bad. However, as it stands, you don't know what's behind the local pits available. There is pretty much a lack of paperwork by those common pit BYB in CA. You just don't know. You couldn't trace anything. The personality genetic traits are skewed way off normal. It's a real shame that this has been done to this breed. I am not against pits, I am against the crummy people that feel they are status to be as "bad dog" as possible and have pursued that line of breeding and evironment.


I totally agree. The wrong people are breeding the wrong dogs for the wrong reasons. It's not hard to ruin any breed in a hurry when that's what's happening. Doesn't mean there aren't plenty of very nice pitties out there - I've met lots of them at the various off leash parks we go to, sweet, friendly, well socialized dogs, so there are also people out there doing breeding right, but unfortunately I don't think they're the majority. Having the biggest, baddest, scariest dog on the block is a status symbol, and that's what that these people are breeding for. Indiscriminate backyard breeding is bad enough, but this goes beyond that, deliberately selecting for all the wrong traits. It's not breed bias to say so, it's a simple statement of fact. 

It's not a breed that I'm generally interested in owning, but I spent some time with a senior pittie girl when I went to Best Friends in Utah that I would have taken home in a heartbeat if I didn't already have 2 dogs. She was in my lap for a good hour, just as sweet and snuggly as could be, and she was living in an enclosure with several other dogs, so no dog aggression either. She did later get an awesome home, but I felt so sad for her when I had to peel her off me when it was time to leave. Poor old girl was starved for love and affection. We did the puppy class while we were there too, and I got an adorable pit mix puppy to work with who was just delightful.


----------



## chelle

ShenzisMom said:


> I'm also quite sick and tired of the whole people are awesome, sweet, kind, loving, protective babies who would never hurt a fly arguments. Ok I'll concede, properly bred, raised and trained People may be exactly that, but anymore, all the gee-I-wanna-be-a-tough-punk idiots just have to get a gun and those frikkin People attack and kill. Sure, many people can attack and kill other people. Yet the **** poorly bred People take the cake here. I try to keep an open mind on anything, but if there's a Person near my dogs, we are going the other way. Not going to risk whether the person is wise or a is a gee-I-want-a-tough-gun-that-I'm-too-lazy-to-train-well type. I'm also tired of the bad news stories about People killing this, that or the other. Maybe they do get more media attention that others, I'll concede that could be true. But I still won't let my dogs near a Person.
> 
> Sorry, I fixed it so that it is true for me. I'm sure others will insert chows, akitas, GSDs, Dobermanns, etc into it. But I will always stand by my version.


Ok I'll accept that version as well. True, true, true! In my area, as in another poster referring to her area in CA, there are neurotic, untrained Pits all over the place. EXCEEDINGLY popular dog in my area and half the time the owner is about 20 and looks like he just got out of prison. Now before that ticks someone off, my point is too many people get these dogs, with no particular interest in the breeding/source. They just want a badass dog to match their badass appearance. 

Now, when you mix a stupid owner with a poorly bred Pit (again, the majority around these parts!) you have an emergency waiting to happen. That's just a fact. Throw in there those exceedingly strong Pit jaws and now the other dog is pretty much dead. My friend's little itty bitty dog (yorkie, I think) was attacked and killed at a soccer game last year by one so maybe I'm biased and sensitive. I've never met a nice one. Maybe I would feel different if I did AND they had an owner who wasn't a fool.


----------



## ba1614

Mom2Shaman said:


> Pregnant Pacifica woman killed by family pit bull
> Not a very sympathetic article.


The ignorance of some people is astounding, and those reporters that wrote that should be ashamed of themselves for letting their obvious bias bleed into their work.

An example of the ignorance from that article, ""I'm scared to death of them," said Jeni Viny, 59, in Pacifica for a high school reunion. Viny of Nashville recalled being at a dog obedience class where a 4-month-old pit bull began attacking other dogs in the room. "I hate them.""

:rolleyes2:


----------



## chelle

Cassidy's Mom said:


> ...Having the biggest, baddest, scariest dog on the block is a status symbol, and that's what that these people are breeding for. Indiscriminate backyard breeding is bad enough, but this goes beyond that, deliberately selecting for all the wrong traits. It's not breed bias to say so, it's a simple statement of fact.


This is my exact feeling and how it seems to be where I live.


----------



## valb

Latest update I heard this morning, the other dog was a spayed
6 year old female. She is being held at animal control, and they
are taking bite impressions and trying to determine that she 
really wasn't involved.

You guys have heard the expression "My jaw dropped" meaning
astonishment at something? Well a few weeks back on my morning
walk, this lady came down the path toward me with an absolutely
adorable pittie. I was thinking "Wiggles the puppy" because she
was doing all the ingratiating moves, including the one where 
their butt comes almost next to their head. I naturally said
"Well hi sweetie" and this woman's jaw dropped. I was petting
and loving the pittie and this woman can NOT believe it. She
told me "She gets soooo excited when anyone will talk to her"
and I asked her if it was because not many did. She just said
"Nobody does".


----------



## fuzzybunny

valb said:


> Latest update I heard this morning, the other dog was a spayed
> 6 year old female. She is being held at animal control, and they
> are taking bite impressions and trying to determine that she
> really wasn't involved.
> 
> You guys have heard the expression "My jaw dropped" meaning
> astonishment at something? Well a few weeks back on my morning
> walk, this lady came down the path toward me with an absolutely
> adorable pittie. I was thinking "Wiggles the puppy" because she
> was doing all the ingratiating moves, including the one where
> their butt comes almost next to their head. I naturally said
> "Well hi sweetie" and this woman's jaw dropped. I was petting
> and loving the pittie and this woman can NOT believe it. She
> told me "She gets soooo excited when anyone will talk to her"
> and I asked her if it was because not many did. She just said
> "Nobody does".


Ahh, that makes me sad. Although we have a breed ban here against them I've encountered many and they've always been wonderful. I'm glad you gave that pup some lovin'.


----------



## AddieGirl

This story is heartbreaking all the way around.  I didn't read the whole thing, but was this her first pregnancy? I really hope they don't have other children who have to go through losing their mom so tragically.


----------



## TankGrrl66

JulieBays said:


> I'm not saying that the dog didn't do it. What I am saying is sometimes bias on the coroners part can cause assumptions without further investigation. For instance, we have a pitbull...we have blood and bite marks. That, in and of itself, is enough for some people to make assumptions. *It is possible that the coroner never bothered to check for underlying conditions, the heart, a stroke!* Pregnant women have strokes. The dog panics. Like I said, we don't have enough information. I am just trying to give another side to a possible explanation. I am not trying to take up for a possible dog that killed his owner.


Yes, bc a trained professional isn't going to check into everything...

The coroner released his/her initial findings. Since there is an investigation, there will most likely be an autopsy (if one hasn't already happened) just to rule out homicide alone. THAT is where they can check for any underlying conditions... 

I understand where you are coming, but the few posts that I have read defending this dog sound ridiculous! 

How hard is it to believe that a powerful dog, coincidentally the most likely type of dog to do this, attacked someone and killed them? 

Yes, if I come home and find ANY dog standing over a dead person that is covered in bite marks and blood is everywhere...um, YES I am going to assume! Yet they are still investigating, so they are doing their jobs.

I just really feel for her family. I couldn't imagine going through anything like this. To have someone I dearly love (baby in tow too!) be killed by what I consider to be another family member? That is like the ultimate nightmare period, let alone a dog owners.


----------



## chelle

valb said:


> Latest update I heard this morning, the other dog was a spayed
> 6 year old female. She is being held at animal control, and they
> are taking bite impressions and trying to determine that she
> really wasn't involved.
> 
> You guys have heard the expression "My jaw dropped" meaning
> astonishment at something? Well a few weeks back on my morning
> walk, this lady came down the path toward me with an absolutely
> adorable pittie. I was thinking "Wiggles the puppy" because she
> was doing all the ingratiating moves, including the one where
> their butt comes almost next to their head. I naturally said
> "Well hi sweetie" and this woman's jaw dropped. I was petting
> and loving the pittie and this woman can NOT believe it. She
> told me "She gets soooo excited when anyone will talk to her"
> and I asked her if it was because not many did. She just said
> "Nobody does".


Ah that is really sad, I'm glad you did that.  I'd love up on that pup, too! It's just when they grow up and growl and me I get worried.


----------



## KZoppa

valb said:


> Latest update I heard this morning, the other dog was a spayed
> 6 year old female. She is being held at animal control, and they
> are taking bite impressions and trying to determine that she
> really wasn't involved.
> 
> You guys have heard the expression "My jaw dropped" meaning
> astonishment at something? Well a few weeks back on my morning
> walk, this lady came down the path toward me with an absolutely
> adorable pittie. I was thinking "Wiggles the puppy" because she
> was doing all the ingratiating moves, including the one where
> their butt comes almost next to their head. I naturally said
> "Well hi sweetie" and this woman's jaw dropped. I was petting
> and loving the pittie and this woman can NOT believe it. She
> told me "She gets soooo excited when anyone will talk to her"
> and I asked her if it was because not many did. She just said
> "Nobody does".


 
i love pits. I've never met an aggressive one. I've met several aggressive mastiff mixes. That poor dog. Just wants to be friends with everyone and nobody wants to be friends with her. Glad you made friends. and surprised someone in the process by NOT being prejudice.


as for the story in question. Terrible tragedy. My heart goes out to the family. I do wonder what happened. I do think its very possible she fainted and her dog panicked and tried to pull her to someone who may have been able to help. Its not unheard of for it to happen. And standing over her snarling, IF she did in fact faint and the dog panicked, someone coming in, family or not, would have caused further panic in the dog. The only ones who know exactly what happened are dead. sad story. I hope the surviving dog is allowed to go back home.


----------



## TankGrrl66

Mom2Shaman said:


> My husband and I discussed this story at dinner. The problem with pits (exceptionally so in California) is that pits have gotten the "bad dog" reputation and thus certain attitudes/types of owners have selectively bred aggression into them and treated them environmentally to enocourage that trait to flourish. If you removed all those owners with that attitude and selectively bred by dedicated professionals for standards and personality as many other breeds do (incl. GSD), the pits themselves would not be bad. However, as it stands, you don't know what's behind the local pits available. There is pretty much a lack of paperwork by those common pit BYB in CA. You just don't know. You couldn't trace anything. The personality genetic traits are skewed way off normal. *It's a real shame that this has been done to this breed. I am not against pits, I am against the crummy people that feel they are status to be as "bad dog" as possible and have pursued that line of breeding and evironment*.


Yeah, that quote just about sums up LA and OC as far as pit bulls go. It is very very sad. 

You can't go anywhere around here without running into these crummy people and their badly bred dogs. For example: On my SOs street, there are these two guys who have what most people would call pits (AmBully types) and they egg them on when they act aggressively to other dogs. I have seen them try and fight other peoples dogs at night through their fence. It is pathetic. 
One of them stopped by bc he noticed my SO's dog (a pit/bulldog mix) and was going on and on about his 'nice head' and 'why didn't we do the ears'. All the while proudly proclaiming he bred them. I didn't know I had so much self-control. I just politely said 'We don't cut up our dogs, thanks'. 

AC here is drowning in stupid stuff like this, and they can't really do anything about it anyways. I wish there was a realistic solution. How hard is it for people to just be responsible? There are 3 pits and 1 pit mix in my SOs family, and they were all raised to be good dogs and are expected to be good dogs. And they are. It isn't hard.


----------



## DharmasMom

valb said:


> Latest update I heard this morning, the other dog was a spayed
> 6 year old female. She is being held at animal control, and they
> are taking bite impressions and trying to determine that she
> really wasn't involved.
> 
> You guys have heard the expression "My jaw dropped" meaning
> astonishment at something? Well a few weeks back on my morning
> walk, this lady came down the path toward me with an absolutely
> adorable pittie. I was thinking "Wiggles the puppy" because she
> was doing all the ingratiating moves, including the one where
> their butt comes almost next to their head. I naturally said
> "Well hi sweetie" and this woman's jaw dropped. I was petting
> and loving the pittie and this woman can NOT believe it. She
> told me "She gets soooo excited when anyone will talk to her"
> and I asked her if it was because not many did. She just said
> "Nobody does".



Aww, that is sooo sad. I am so glad you loved up on that pup. She deserved it. She will never get socialized if everyone treats her like a pariah.

As for the OP, who knows what happened. The dog could have snapped and decided to make mom lunch that day, something could have happened and the woman provoked the dog- no one really knows what kind of relationship the 2 had (I am in no way saying she deserved it, just that something she did could have provoked the dog), or like Krystal said, she could have tripped or fell or startled the dog and the dog panicked and attacked, unfortunately we will never know the answer to that. Very sad all around.


----------



## Glacier

dazedtrucker said:


> I agree.
> Will people ever admit the majority of pitbulls are unpredictable and have a tendency for violence? I mean seriously. Yeah yeah yeah...all breeds can attack. Not all breeds are bred exclusively for that "talent" like pits have been. Oh well. Breed bans suck. (I got bit by a breed ban myself with a GSD.) However, there's a problem with this breed that needs to be addressed somehow.
> 
> The sign at our dog park here.


I find it funny when people on a GSD forum bash the APBT. When once your beloved breed went through the same thing. Irresponsible over breeding is causing unstable temperament in a breed that was purposely breed *against* human aggression, not to mention there are many people who have no business owning these dogs. Just like the GSD isn't for everybody, the APBT also needs a dedicated owner. Dog aggression and human aggression are completely different things.

Pits are no more prone to human aggression than German Shepherds, they just happen to be the new flavor of the week.

It's a very unfortunately situation, for everyone involved.


----------



## Chicagocanine

MountainGSDs said:


> Exactly. People have their heads in the sand when it comes to the bully breeds and mixes. Sure there are tons of great ones but the poor breeding practices and their popularity is what caused this. People chant, don't blame the breed when in fact in many cases it is the breed not the owner. There is a thread going "why breed only titled shepherds?" well this is one reason. We don't want to regress.
> How many were around 25/35 years ago when shepherds were the bad boys of the dog world.


I don't know, I think this statement could easily be said (and similar has been said by others) about German Shepherds, or Golden Retrievers, or Labs, or any popular breed today.

It always surprises me when GSD owners are against pit bulls, considering that GSDs have a pretty bad rap themselves and are sometimes included in those breed bans too.


----------



## CookieTN

valb said:


> Latest update I heard this morning, the other dog was a spayed
> 6 year old female. She is being held at animal control, and they
> are taking bite impressions and trying to determine that she
> really wasn't involved.
> 
> You guys have heard the expression "My jaw dropped" meaning
> astonishment at something? Well a few weeks back on my morning
> walk, this lady came down the path toward me with an absolutely
> adorable pittie. I was thinking "Wiggles the puppy" because she
> was doing all the ingratiating moves, including the one where
> their butt comes almost next to their head. I naturally said
> "Well hi sweetie" and this woman's jaw dropped. I was petting
> and loving the pittie and this woman can NOT believe it. She
> told me "She gets soooo excited when anyone will talk to her"
> and I asked her if it was because not many did. She just said
> "Nobody does".


If I see a Pittie I'm most likely going to go over to see him if I possibly can, with the owner's permission of course. They seem fairly common in my area and I love meeting them.
The only dog that ever bit me was a German Shepherd. And I have seen news reports of German Shepherd (and other breed) attacks. They hardly go country wide the way kriffing Pit Bull articles do, though. Stupid fricking biased news media.



Chicagocanine said:


> I don't know, I think this statement could easily be said (and similar has been said by others) about German Shepherds, or Golden Retrievers, or Labs, or any popular breed today.
> 
> It always surprises me when GSD owners are against pit bulls, considering that GSDs have a pretty bad rap themselves and are sometimes included in those breed bans too.


Same. I've had people tell me things like Cookie was going to turn on me, and even that she needs to be put to sleep before she kills somebody (just because she was a German Shepherd.) Those ignorant comments HURT. It made me sympathize with responsible Pit Bull owners all the more.


----------



## Chicagocanine

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull. Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.


Actually a LOT of people can't tell an APBT from many other breeds/mixes. Is this really surprising, considering the posts here talking about all the times people have insisted our German Shepherds are some other breed? One lady asked me if Bianca was a Collie.
Also keep in mind there are many mastiff breeds, so they may also not be talking about the English Mastiff.

I have had two dogs (separately, not together) Harley and Pooch, who multiple people either asked me if they were pit bulls or_ insisted_ that they were pit bulls or pit mixes. I even had one person ask me if I wanted to fight my dog with theirs. One lady in my neighborhood refused to go near Pooch, saying "that's a pit bull, that's a pit bull" "don't come near me with that pit bull". The funny thing was she happened to love my friend's mixed breed dog who we were fairly sure WAS part APBT.


Harley, a Chinese Shar-Pei (which incidentally were also originally bred for fighting)










Pooch, Rat Terrier mix (who was 14" tall and 24 lbs):











Here are some "find the pit bull" links:

findpitbull_v4

puppy_findpitbull

Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull




selzer said:


> Pits are about 35-50 pounds. I just do not know how a healthy adult could let a dog that size kill them. Maybe she passed out or something and the dog freaked out. Who knows.


I've seen some pit bulls or mixes lately that are way bigger than that. Just like there are people breeding larger GSDs (100+ pounds), there are people breeding larger APBTs. There are also people mixing them with larger breeds to get a larger dog, and then there's the Bandog/Bandogge which is sometimes mixed with APBT, Amstaff. Other Bandogs don't have any pit bull in them but can easily be mistaken for an APBT.


----------



## MountainGSDs

Chicagocanine said:


> I don't know, I think this statement could easily be said (and similar has been said by others) about German Shepherds, or Golden Retrievers, or Labs, or any popular breed today.
> 
> It always surprises me when GSD owners are against pit bulls, considering that GSDs have a pretty bad rap themselves and are sometimes included in those breed bans too.


Most of us are not against the breed but against bad breeders and gangbangers that have taken poor breeding to a new level and now we have a disproportionate number of dogs that are over sized with weak nerves and over aggressive temperaments.
Why do you think those of us involved with GSDs for many years are so particular on breeding, breeders and on whether a dog is worthy of breeding?


----------



## valb

I'm sure we'll hear more, but this link was just given to me
by someone, supposedly they are saying the woman fell off a
ladder.

Pacifica dog mauling?what really happened? - National American Pit Bull | Examiner.com


----------



## selzer

valb said:


> I'm sure we'll hear more, but this link was just given to me
> by someone, supposedly they are saying the woman fell off a
> ladder.
> 
> Pacifica dog mauling?what really happened? - National American Pit Bull | Examiner.com



So do we know that this is what happened. How tragic for everyone involved. I hope no one kills the female.


----------



## valb

We don't, Selzer. I watched 3 different local newscasts 
tonight, and none of them mentioned the fall off a ladder
aspect, so that was a bogus account? It's taking too much
time to come clear, for me.

The husband/owner has asked for the female back, but it
remains to be seen if they'll let him have her.


----------



## DJEtzel

x0emiroxy0x said:


> *I would like to see a picture of the dog that attacked this poor woman, more often than not the dogs in question are not true Pitbull Terriers but rather some sort of mastiff mixed with Pitbull, Cane Corso and a host of others. I've owned Pitbull Terriers for over 50 years and none of them was even remotely human aggressive.*
> 
> ***That was a quote from the article.
> 
> If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull. Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.


They aren't trying to blame anything. 95% of the time, the dogs labelled as "pit bulls" in news articles are NOT pure bred American Pit Bull Terriers. About 50% of the time, they aren't ANY type of pit or mastiff mix. Labs turn up a lot of the time. I heard about a guy making a habit of requesting pictures of "pit bulls" that attacked people. I'm doing it now in my area and it makes my gut turn that the media is creating all of this hype over LABS and SHEPHERD mixes. These are attacks on people, not dogs or other animals.




> "I bet the pitbull attacked her because she was mean to it every day and beat him every day and he lived in the backyard and had no treats and no food"....NO....It is because it was IN HIS BLOOD.
> 
> I don't think ALL pitbulls have the bad blood...but there is no way to prove if yours does or doesnt!


You're showing your lack of knowledge here espeically. Human aggression is not in pit bulls' blood. Human aggression is not a genetic trait in ANY breed that I'm aware of. DOG AGRESSION _is _a genetic trait in SOME pit bulls, but when they were breeding for that, they were culling dogs that displayed any signs of human aggression, almost completely emptying the breeding pool of human-aggressive dogs. NO pit bulls have "bad blood" turning them towards human aggression. Period.


----------



## codmaster

The article also mentioned that the dog was a *140lb* pit bull!

Never heard of a pit that big!


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> The article also mentioned that the dog was a *140lb* pit bull!
> 
> Never heard of a pit that big!


Probably something like an American Bully X American Bulldog mix. Oh.. and maybe some _Mastiff! _


----------



## DharmasMom

valb said:


> I'm sure we'll hear more, but this link was just given to me
> by someone, supposedly they are saying the woman fell off a
> ladder.
> 
> Pacifica dog mauling?what really happened? - National American Pit Bull | Examiner.com



Well, an autopsy will clear it all up pretty quick. Incredibly, incredibly sad if the dog got blamed and shot and all it was trying to do was help its mother. And yes, if she fell and hit her head just right, she could have died, especially if she lay there for awhile and no one knew it. Sad, sad, sad. I think I will wait for the autopsy before I cast any judgements.


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> Probably something like an American Bully X American Bulldog mix. Oh.. and maybe some _Mastiff! _


Probably, but the pit bull breed takes the hit again.

Just like with a lot of GSD mixes some years ago - anything looking anything like somebody's idea of a GSD, with erect ears and generally black and tan, was a "darn GSD" if it did something bad.


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> Probably, but the pit bull breed takes the hit again.
> 
> Just like with a lot of GSD mixes some years ago - anything looking anything like somebody's idea of a GSD, with erect ears and generally black and tan, was a "darn GSD" if it did something bad.


Yep, they always do. If it's a medium sized dog with a square head, it's a pit bull when it attacks something. When it saves a daycare from a burning fire, it's a lab.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I wan to add something, all this talking about bad breeding. You say that it sometimes it just might be the breed. Well guess what, it's not the breed at all. Its the humans. Why? Well who breeds the dogs? Humans do.so therefore it's the humans not the dogs.


----------



## TankGrrl66

What is this falling off of a ladder nonsense? I am going to need to see an official report on this...

 When I read the part about him 'pawing her to save her' or some big fat BS. Um, then why was she covered in blood? My dogs don't cover me in blood if they paw at me. Not only is the anti-pittie stuff BS, but the pro-pittie side is getting just as ridiculous as the anti people now! 

According to all the other coverage on this, she was covered in not only blood but bite wounds as well. Yes, this dog was obviously trying to save her 

Regardless of what really happened, it is just so sad for everyone involved. How awful


----------



## MountainGSDs

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I wan to add something, all this talking about bad breeding. You say that it sometimes it just might be the breed. Well guess what, it's not the breed at all. Its the humans. Why? Well who breeds the dogs? Humans do.so therefore it's the humans not the dogs.


Bully owners and supporters will NEVER get it. I went through the GSD bad times years ago. There were horrible dogs out there and they got a bad rap deservedly so.
Admitting it and then good breeders and owners turned it around. That is why when people come to GSD boards there is an outcry if breeding is mentions and the question is asked how will breeding dog X to dog Y better the breed.

Twist the words any way you want but in the end there is a disproportionate number of bad pits and pit mixes out there. ( and lot's of sweet ones too)


----------



## Dainerra

couple of things.. 

1) IF the ladder report is true, that could easily explain her being covered in blood. A head would believes like you can not IMAGINE, even a tiny one. Again, no one will know anything until the report comes back. 

Shoot, maybe the dog was trying to eat her after she died. You know, like all those little old ladies that no one checked on and the body is eaten by her cats. Again, there is always more than one possibility. 

OH and whoever said "a professional will always do their job"?? There are always reports of ME's who missed the mark through shoddy or hurried work. Even reports where autopsy's weren't done at all! There is often a backlog of cases. If there is an obvious apparent cause, then yes, there is a chance that an over-worked ME could say "oh it was this" and not look any further. Life isn't TV and the human factor is a mess.

2) DJEtzel, sorry, but human aggression is in the blood of several breeds! Of course, the pit bull isn't one of them lol That is why cano presario for one. Some mastiff breeds, etc etc. Shoot, think of the GSD. If there wasn't a genetic "willingness" to bite humans, they wouldn't make very good Schutzhund dogs would they? Basically, any breed that ever began as a "guard dog" had to have some level of human aggression. That doesn't mean that all those breeds were meant to go around killing random people, but there are breeds that are VERY dangerous to anyone outside their family circle.

The pit bull, on the other hand, had been bred for years to have ZERO human aggression. The nature of the dog pit required that any dog that showed aggression to a human was culled, even if the dog was only reacting in pain.


----------



## CookieTN

MountainGSDs said:


> Bully owners and supporters will NEVER get it. I went through the GSD bad times years ago. There were horrible dogs out there and they got a bad rap deservedly so.
> Admitting it and then good breeders and owners turned it around. That is why when people come to GSD boards there is an outcry if breeding is mentions and the question is asked how will breeding dog X to dog Y better the breed.
> 
> Twist the words any way you want but in the end there is a disproportionate number of bad pits and pit mixes out there. ( and lot's of sweet ones too)


I've seen Pittie owners on other sites who do way more than just insist that Pit Bulls are not horrible dogs. People who are involved in rescue and believe in responsible breeding. I don't know about there being more bad Pits than good because of it, but it's not like all of us Pit Bull advocates don't agree with you that some things need to turn around. We're just sick of the breed getting banned, because that's not a good solution to the problem anyway. Since when did banning something ever make it go away? Dog fighters are disobeying the law already by doing what they're doing, another law won't stop them. Banning the dogs altogether just punishes the good, law-abiding owners.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

This is all my proof that pitbulls are the most loving, affectionate dogs out of every dog breed!

#1:
THey are one of the top scorers on the American Temperament Test so they are NOT aggressive (even though the site quotes "*The pass-fail rate is not a measure of a breed’s aggression, but rather of each dog’s ability to interact with humans, human situations, and the environment."*they are lying! This PROVES that pitbulls are not aggressive! They are NOT aggressive. The most aggressive breed is the SKYE terrier! Only 35% passed.









Even though our members make sure that only nice dogs enter, we aren't cheating!










I know we get mad when people say they can identify a pitbull, and put a link for that picture game up, but when it suits us we combine lots of different dogs under the pitbull name to make them look better!! This is on a tshirt for us to wear to say how much better pitbulls are than other dogs:










#2: MEDIA

The media LIES! They on purpose call labs and chihuahuas pitbulls just to make a news story! Pitbulls are NANNY dogs. They love kids. Pitbulls DONT attack people. EVER. ONe day a news guy was bored and just decided to hate on pitbulls. Pitbulls are not bred to fight other dogs or people! The media hates pitbulls for no reason

#3: Statistics

All statistics are unfair! Pitbulls are only APBT not Staffordshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, etc. Those other breeds can ONLY be included in statistics if it makes pitbulls look better. 

#4: Looks

No one in the entire world can identify a pitbull! If they see a pitbull, it is 99% sure they are wrong! Even if a dog is mixed with a pitbull and it attacks someone, it doesn't count as a pitbull attack because if it is a pitbull lab mix, it is the LAB half that is aggressive, not the pit. Just because a dog has a big head doesn't mean it is a pit.

All you mean people who don't like pitbulls are hypocrites. German Shepherds used to be disliked....until their owners *admitted* there was a problem and bred them better and trained them more. Yes, we deny there is a problem, yes many people breed aggressive pits, and yes many of us dont train our pits...but it is the HUMANS fault..not the pits! 


(*Like I have said before, my brother owns a pit that is the best dog in the world but has gone through advanced training classes and is not allowed near unfamiliar dogs. He anticipates that their could be a random attack, and that is why his dog has never gotten in trouble.)

Rocky has 4 PB Pitbull best friends at the apartment next door. Their owners ADMIT that their dogs could get aggressive, and take steps to make sure this doesn't happen! I have NO problem with pitbulls. But I do believe 100% that they are prone to attack and when pitbull owners deny this, that is what I dislike. The good pit owners are the ones who own up that their dog might be sweet 99% of the time, but that 1% anything could happen. 

JUST like I admit with Rocky! ANY of our dogs have that 1% possibility that something could happen because they are animals...which is why it is so dumb to deny that pits have any problems at all.

*Wow, I am about to get SO bashed by the Pit owners! I almost dont want to post, but I'm pretty annoyed by the bashing some people did about my post, rather than debating back with facts.


----------



## kennajo

JulieBays said:


> Everyone, don't get mad at me but are we sure it was the dog? I am biased, I admit but I feel like we don't have enough information to form an opinion. I do feel sad for every species involved. It is just sad.


 I agree with this...no one should judge until the findings of the necropsy is back.


----------



## codmaster

MountainGSDs said:


> Bully owners and supporters will NEVER get it. I went through the GSD bad times years ago. There were horrible dogs out there and they got a bad rap deservedly so.
> Admitting it and then good breeders and owners turned it around. That is why when people come to GSD boards there is an outcry if breeding is mentions and the question is asked how will breeding dog X to dog Y better the breed.
> 
> Twist the words any way you want but in the end there is a *disproportionate number of bad pits* and pit mixes out there. ( and lot's of sweet ones too)


Just curious - what would this number be?

Second, what would a proportionate number be?

And how would this compare with the proper proportionate number of bad GSD's?


----------



## MountainGSDs

codmaster said:


> Just curious - what would this number be?
> 
> Second, what would a proportionate number be?
> 
> And how would this compare with the proper proportionate number of bad GSD's?


Factor in the media hype and you still see huge numbers of reports in the news. I'm on a few township commissions where I live and see a bunch of complaints. The you can also do some homework with places like the CDC, etc. Most heath depts keep stats too. Call your local animal control and ask what they respond to most.
Are you implying there isn't a problem with bullies and bully mixes?


----------



## TankGrrl66

x0emiroxy0x said:


> #2: MEDIA
> 
> The media LIES! They on purpose call labs and chihuahuas pitbulls just to make a news story! Pitbulls are NANNY dogs. No, Staffies are. Read below. They love kids. Pitbulls DONT attack people. EVER. Put down the pipe. If I can admit problems with my fav breed, the GSD, you can admit yours. ONe day a news guy was bored and just decided to hate on pitbulls. Pitbulls are not bred to fight other dogs or people! Um, what? They were bred to fight other dogs...but not people. So there is obviously a problem here, bc they are attacking people. The media hates pitbulls for no reason They attack people more than any other kind of dog? Its good news? It gets people buzzin, like it has in this thread?
> 
> I know pitbulls love kids. But not attacking people ever? What?! Go call your local AC and ask them. Look up national dog bite statistics. 1st place goes to the pitbull at over 1000 attacks. 2nd place is the rottie at about 83. Even if you factor out all of the dogs who do not fit the look of an APBT or amstaff...yeah.
> Many of these beautiful dogs are being destroyed through these idiotic BYBs who breed unsound dogs to try and boost their ego. That, IMHO, is the problem. The wrong people get these dogs and want the wrong things out of them.
> Look, I love pitbulls. But I feel about them the same way I feel about the GSD-A lot of stupid people have them, breed them, and turn out crazy versions of the breed.
> 
> #3: Statistics
> 
> All statistics are unfair! Pitbulls are only APBT not Staffordshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, etc. Those other breeds can ONLY be included in statistics if it makes pitbulls look better.
> 
> Nanny dog comes from the Staffie, so I guess you can't use that anymore, right?
> 
> #4: Looks
> 
> No one in the entire world can identify a pitbull! What are you talking about there? Huh? If they see a pitbull, it is 99% sure they are wrong! Even if a dog is mixed with a pitbull and it attacks someone, it doesn't count as a pitbull attack because if it is a pitbull lab mix, it is the LAB half that is aggressive, not the pit. Just because a dog has a big head doesn't mean it is a pit. A lot of these dogs, if you were shown a picture of them, you would compliment their adorable pit. A lot of pit bull owners would. I know I would, and I know what an APBT looks like. What everybody needs to 'get' here, is that squealing about specifics does not make people listen. People are still going to mislabel the breed, and roll their eyes when you try to point out what appear (to them) to be subtle differences.
> So what happened with the GSD as far as getting out of that bad boy spot...needs to happen with them.
> GSDs have a bad reputation from begin associated with Germany during WWI. That bad taste was revived during the Civil Rights movement, bc they were the police dogs used on the peaceful protesters. At that point, even their previous and current military service could not salvage their reputation. They have a longer history of being jerks than pits do, and us GSD owners share the breed hatred with you. In fact, most of the bully people I have met actually really don't like GSDs! Many people think my dogs are police dogs, or that my dogs are mean just bc they are GSDs.
> 
> All you mean people who don't like pitbulls are hypocrites. But I wuv them ! German Shepherds used to be disliked....until their owners *admitted* there was a problem and bred them better and trained them more. Still workin' on that, arn't we?  Yes, we deny there is a problem, yes many people breed aggressive pits, and yes many of us dont train our pits...but it is the HUMANS fault..not the pits! There is so much wrong in that sentence...um hello, that is BAD!!!! There is still a big problem...
> 
> A lot of dogs are not really trained. Yet the statistics remain the same. The only way to change that is to make those little poofy white yapper dogs the size of pits, lol.
> It is the humans' fault for breeding the dogs so awfully. I think all this energy needs to go towards changing that, and how dog owners manage their own dogs.
> 
> (*Like I have said before, my brother owns a pit that is the best dog in the world but has gone through advanced training classes and is not allowed near unfamiliar dogs. He anticipates that their could be a random attack, and that is why his dog has never gotten in trouble.)*
> 
> *Rocky has 4 PB Pitbull best friends at the apartment next door. Their owners ADMIT that their dogs could get aggressive, and take steps to make sure this doesn't happen! I have NO problem with pitbulls. But I do believe 100% that they are prone to attack and when pitbull owners deny this, that is what I dislike. The good pit owners are the ones who own up that their dog might be sweet 99% of the time, but that 1% anything could happen. *
> *Any good dog owner does this. I view my GSDs this way. Dogs are not beigns with infinite patience for the ways of humans. Any dog, pushed far enough, will bite.*
> 
> *JUST like I admit with Rocky! ANY of our dogs have that 1% possibility that something could happen because they are animals...which is why it is so dumb to deny that pits have any problems at all.*
> *Yes, and that is responsible ownership. But how often does anybody really see this? Most people period can't deal with this...and many in this category want pits, get them through bad sources, and viola.*
> 
> Wow, I am about to get SO bashed by the Pit owners! I almost dont want to post, but I'm pretty annoyed by the bashing some people did about my post, rather than debating back with facts.


I'm replying in the blue. I couldn't resist, I am so sick of these excuses! I understand your points, but you are almost in denial here...


----------



## TankGrrl66

cookietn said:


> i've seen pittie owners on other sites who do way more than just insist that pit bulls are not horrible dogs. People who are involved in rescue and believe in responsible breeding. I don't know about there being more bad pits than good because of it, but it's not like all of us pit bull advocates don't agree with you that some things need to turn around. We're just sick of the breed getting banned, because that's not a good solution to the problem anyway. Since when did banning something ever make it go away? Dog fighters are disobeying the law already by doing what they're doing, another law won't stop them. Banning the dogs altogether just punishes the good, law-abiding owners.


:d:d:d:d


----------



## MountainGSDs

CookieTN said:


> I've seen Pittie owners on other sites who do way more than just insist that Pit Bulls are not horrible dogs. People who are involved in rescue and believe in responsible breeding. I don't know about there being more bad Pits than good because of it, but it's not like all of us Pit Bull advocates don't agree with you that some things need to turn around. We're just sick of the breed getting banned, because that's not a good solution to the problem anyway. Since when did banning something ever make it go away? Dog fighters are disobeying the law already by doing what they're doing, another law won't stop them. Banning the dogs altogether just punishes the good, law-abiding owners.


Great post, couldn't agree more. The advocates need to take action. Too many just chant "it's not he breed' and do nothing to educate and eradicate the bad guys.


----------



## Chicagocanine

x0emiroxy0x said:


> The media LIES! They on purpose call labs and chihuahuas pitbulls just to make a news story! Pitbulls are NANNY dogs. They love kids. Pitbulls DONT attack people. EVER. ONe day a news guy was bored and just decided to hate on pitbulls. Pitbulls are not bred to fight other dogs or people! The media hates pitbulls for no reason


Yes it is very common for dogs to be misidentified by the media as pit bulls. Whether this is on purpose or not, it happens a lot. Many times it may just be that whoever they interviewed called the dog a "pit bull" but whatever the reason it does happen a lot. I don't see ANYONE saying that any dog breed does not ever attack people so what is your point, besides trying to make "pit bull owners" look silly?




x0emiroxy0x said:


> #3: Statistics
> 
> All statistics are unfair! Pitbulls are only APBT not Staffordshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, etc. Those other breeds can ONLY be included in statistics if it makes pitbulls look better.


I have no idea what your point is here, but yes I do think it is unfair to use statistics that take at least 3 breeds (plus all the other breeds/mixes misidentified as "pit bull") and then stick them all together under one name and use that to claim that "pit bulls" are way more aggressive than any other breed. That would be like taking the statistics for dog bites for Dobermans, German Shepherds, and Rotties and since they are all large black and tan dogs, we will put the dog bite numbers all together and add any other black and tan mixed breeds to that, and use it to prove that GSDs are dangerous.



x0emiroxy0x said:


> Wow, I am about to get SO bashed by the Pit owners! I almost dont want to post, but I'm pretty annoyed by the bashing some people did about my post, rather than debating back with facts.


I just wanted to point out here that I do not now nor have ever owned a pit bull. So it's not just the "Pit owners" who are disagreeing with you.


----------



## DharmasMom

TankGrrl66 said:


> What is this falling off of a ladder nonsense? I am going to need to see an official report on this...
> 
> When I read the part about him 'pawing her to save her' or some big fat BS. Um, then why was she covered in blood? My dogs don't cover me in blood if they paw at me. Not only is the anti-pittie stuff BS, but the pro-pittie side is getting just as ridiculous as the anti people now!
> 
> According to all the other coverage on this, she was covered in not only blood but bite wounds as well. Yes, this dog was obviously trying to save her
> 
> Regardless of what really happened, it is just so sad for everyone involved. How awful



Depending on what she hit her head on as she fell, she could have bled buckets. The scalp is EXTREMELY vascular and will spout out blood like a fountain. When I worked in the ER, people would come in literally covered and when we looked we would find a tiny 1 or 2 cm laceration. If the dog laid down in it next to her then it is entirely possible for him to be covered in her blood. 

As for bite wounds, we won't know the answer to that until the autopsy. Everything is speculation up until the official findings are released.


----------



## Sigurd's Mom

Hmmm... Pacifica dog mauling?what really happened? - National American Pit Bull | Examiner.com


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## Doubleyolk

I have been following this thread and was going to refrain from posting. I was attacked by American Pitbull at a cookout by a friends family pet of eight years that had never bit anyone. Well, I was his first attack and it was over moving a cheeseburger away that he tried to take from me. After the attack was over it took 62 stitches to close the defensive wounds in my arm. Do I trust Pitbulls,no I don't. Do I think all Pitbulls are bad,no I don't.


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## Ishmail

Ugh man what a sad and depressing story. My prayers go out to the husband and family.


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## Jessiewessie99

MountainGSDs said:


> Bully owners and supporters will NEVER get it. I went through the GSD bad times years ago. There were horrible dogs out there and they got a bad rap deservedly so.
> Admitting it and then good breeders and owners turned it around. That is why when people come to GSD boards there is an outcry if breeding is mentions and the question is asked how will breeding dog X to dog Y better the breed.
> 
> Twist the words any way you want but in the end there is a disproportionate number of bad pits and pit mixes out there. ( and lot's of sweet ones too)


Yes we do. Its the HUMANS ie: Owners & Breeders, mroe specifically, BAD owners and Bad breeders.

What Anti-Pitbull don't get is its not the dogs and are quick to blame the dogs. 

There are many sweet pitties, and many of the sweet pitties were the result of bad breedings and are able to become great pets, same goes for the ones who came from bad owners, such as in the case of Michael Vick. Some of the dogs, if not all of them, were able to be rehabilitated and adopted into good homes.


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## Jessiewessie99

x0emiroxy0x said:


> This is all my proof that pitbulls are the most loving, affectionate dogs out of every dog breed!
> 
> #1:
> THey are one of the top scorers on the American Temperament Test so they are NOT aggressive (even though the site quotes "*The pass-fail rate is not a measure of a breed’s aggression, but rather of each dog’s ability to interact with humans, human situations, and the environment."*they are lying! This PROVES that pitbulls are not aggressive! They are NOT aggressive. The most aggressive breed is the SKYE terrier! Only 35% passed.
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> Even though our members make sure that only nice dogs enter, we aren't cheating!
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> I know we get mad when people say they can identify a pitbull, and put a link for that picture game up, but when it suits us we combine lots of different dogs under the pitbull name to make them look better!! This is on a tshirt for us to wear to say how much better pitbulls are than other dogs:
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> #2: MEDIA
> 
> The media LIES! They on purpose call labs and chihuahuas pitbulls just to make a news story! Pitbulls are NANNY dogs. They love kids. Pitbulls DONT attack people. EVER. ONe day a news guy was bored and just decided to hate on pitbulls. Pitbulls are not bred to fight other dogs or people! The media hates pitbulls for no reason
> 
> #3: Statistics
> 
> All statistics are unfair! Pitbulls are only APBT not Staffordshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, etc. Those other breeds can ONLY be included in statistics if it makes pitbulls look better.
> 
> #4: Looks
> 
> No one in the entire world can identify a pitbull! If they see a pitbull, it is 99% sure they are wrong! Even if a dog is mixed with a pitbull and it attacks someone, it doesn't count as a pitbull attack because if it is a pitbull lab mix, it is the LAB half that is aggressive, not the pit. Just because a dog has a big head doesn't mean it is a pit.
> 
> All you mean people who don't like pitbulls are hypocrites. German Shepherds used to be disliked....until their owners *admitted* there was a problem and bred them better and trained them more. Yes, we deny there is a problem, yes many people breed aggressive pits, and yes many of us dont train our pits...but it is the HUMANS fault..not the pits!
> 
> 
> (*Like I have said before, my brother owns a pit that is the best dog in the world but has gone through advanced training classes and is not allowed near unfamiliar dogs. He anticipates that their could be a random attack, and that is why his dog has never gotten in trouble.)
> 
> Rocky has 4 PB Pitbull best friends at the apartment next door. Their owners ADMIT that their dogs could get aggressive, and take steps to make sure this doesn't happen! I have NO problem with pitbulls. But I do believe 100% that they are prone to attack and when pitbull owners deny this, that is what I dislike. The good pit owners are the ones who own up that their dog might be sweet 99% of the time, but that 1% anything could happen.
> 
> JUST like I admit with Rocky! ANY of our dogs have that 1% possibility that something could happen because they are animals...which is why it is so dumb to deny that pits have any problems at all.
> 
> *Wow, I am about to get SO bashed by the Pit owners! I almost dont want to post, but I'm pretty annoyed by the bashing some people did about my post, rather than debating back with facts.


Now you are just getting ridiculous. You either aren't or don't want to read what people wrote. Its not just pitties owners who saying you are wrong. 

#1. What you obviously do NOT understand is that Ptibull breeds(such as the APBT, Staffies, Amer Staffies) were NOT bred to be HUMAN aggressive. If you haven't already read, that many if not all of them, were able to be rehabilitated and adopted into good homes are are doing great.

#2. Yes the media does lie! Almost everytime a news story of a dog attack comes out they are quick to call the dog a pitbull or pitbull mix. They get their facts wrong about pitbulls, calling them vicious man eating monsters, 
when in reality they aren't. 

#3. Yes, statistics are inaccuarte, because majority of the time AC doesn't know what a pittie looks like. Another thing is people LIE about their attacks. They may have gotten bit by a pibtull, but in reality they actually got bit by a Lab, or Chihuahua. And also many people don't report their attacks because they don't want their dog taken away.

#4. Its true. Majority of the general population doesn't know what a pitbull really looks like. Many people claim GSDs are pitties!

Yes, anyone who owns a breed that is on the BSL list and are against any breed that is also on the BSL list, such as Pitbulls are hypocrites.If you own a GSD, and hate Pitties and are against them want them banned, want them muzzled in public, are hypocrites. They are the ignorant ones. It is the humans fault. Who trains the pitbulls? Humans. Who breeds the pitbulls? Humans.

NO ONE is saying that Pitbulls can't and won't bite. What we are saying is that they are NOT HUMAN aggressive. ANY DOG CAN BITE NOT JUST PITBULLS. Yes, I will admit my dogs can bite, just like any other dog. And its my job to be responsible. I would say the same thing if I were the owner of a pitbull. Many people, such as yourself, don't know much about the breed and fail to educate yourself. Anti-Pittie people are the ones who aren't listening or reading.


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## sparra

MountainGSDs said:


> Great post, couldn't agree more. The advocates need to take action. Too many just chant "it's not he breed' and do nothing to educate and eradicate the bad guys.


This is a quote from one of the news articles (baring in mind how accurate these can be) "Horrified neighbors left flowers in front of the tiny white house on Reina Del Mar Avenue, where a "Beware of the Dog" sign hung from the fence. Darla Napora loved her dogs -- 2-year-old male Gunner and a 6-year-old female pit bull, Tazi -- family said, and was an avid supporter of Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pit bulls, or Bad Rap, which seeks to change attitudes toward the polarizing breed" 
If this were true then this poor woman WAS one of the advocates trying to take action.* IF* the dog is found to be responsible then how tragic that she was a responsible pit bull owner who was trying to educate people about the breed and was tragically killed by her own dog (if indeed the dog did do it)


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## Jessiewessie99

MountainGSDs said:


> Great post, couldn't agree more. The advocates need to take action. Too many just chant "it's not he breed' and do nothing to educate and eradicate the bad guys.


I am an advocate and try to educate someone as best I can about pitties. I also encourage people to meet them. When I am working at the shelter and I am walking a pittie I tell people to pet them to show them not to be afraid of the dogs.


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## MountainGSDs

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Yes we do. Its the HUMANS ie: Owners & Breeders, mroe specifically, BAD owners and Bad breeders.
> 
> What Anti-Pitbull don't get is its not the dogs and are quick to blame the dogs.


Once a dog has been created through bad breeding and you have an over sized aggressive weak nerved dog it is the dog. Drastic action must be taken to ensure these dogs are not bred. I'm no expert on DNA but if you have a line of aggressive, weak nerved dogs and you wind up with a couple that are nice so you breed them(BYBs) can those traits pass through to offspring?
Wolfstraum and Wildhaus are knowledgeable breeders and could probably lend to the discussion.


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## valreegrl

x0emiroxy0x said:


> *I would like to see a picture of the dog that attacked this poor woman, more often than not the dogs in question are not true Pitbull Terriers but rather some sort of mastiff mixed with Pitbull, Cane Corso and a host of others. I've owned Pitbull Terriers for over 50 years and none of them was even remotely human aggressive.*
> 
> ***That was a quote from the article.
> 
> If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull. Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.
> 
> 
> And what is with all these people asking 'how do we know that happened' ??? If it was a german shepherd or a rottweiler, GSD and rott owners would say "Wow, that was a bad representative of the breed. This really sucks for us. Let's prove to society how great our breed really is and that this was a fluke" (Thats what I think atleast)...but pitt owners just DENY DENY DENY.
> 
> I am so tired of this DENIAL and misrepresentation of facts by pitbull owners. Who cares if every pitt you ever met was nice? Every pit that attacks someone, its owners says "I never would have known...she was so sweet!" The American Temperament Test is a load of BS and the only thing it proves is how much a dog compares to the breed standard, NOT Aggression!!!
> 
> *KNOW* that your dog has the potential to *KILL* and be PROACTIVE! Do I let Rocky near children? NO! Because I know they scare him, and I am not ONE HUNDRED percent sure that he wouldn't fear bite if one poked him in the eye or hit him.
> 
> My brothers pitbull is the SWEETEST SMARTEST dog ever. But does he let his dog off leash in parks?? NO. Does he let it play with unfamiliar dogs? NO. Does he always ANTICIPATE? YES.
> 
> Be responsible for your dog. STOP BLAMING AMERICA FOR "PICKING ON" PITBULLS AND REALIZE YOUR DOG COULD POSSIBLY BE DANGEROUS.
> 
> I know all the pitbull people will attack me for this but I don't care because I am fed up with this denial denial denial.
> 
> "I bet the pitbull attacked her because she was mean to it every day and beat him every day and he lived in the backyard and had no treats and no food"....NO....It is because it was IN HIS BLOOD.
> 
> I don't think ALL pitbulls have the bad blood...but there is no way to prove if yours does or doesnt!


Wow! Gotta love the media as this is riddled with insults against a breed that is completely unnecessary. I hope too they release a photo of the dogs as there is at least a 50% chance that the dog in question was NOT a "pit". 

Human aggression is not a breed standard for APBT (if that is what you are talking about when you say 'Pitbull' as the word is a social class and not a breed) 

And has everyone missed a HUGE sentence in the article....the one about the husband questioning if this were due to a possible dog fight over food?!?!!!!
If that were the case you can be darn sure that the injuries were due to redirect or through ignorance of breaking up a dog fight properly. That scenario is much more probably than the dog woke up one day and decided to eat his owner....do you see how ridiculous that sounds. 

And on a Shepherd forum no less...some would think that of all breed lovers they would not be bashing bullies here. YOU have a guarding breed, there have been many many cases of Shepherd bites. Heck, here is a great one for you with all the tossing around of poor breeding.....

We assessed a 4 month old female GSD from German Import lines.....at 4 months old this pup is coming at you, unpredictable, no signs of a trigger, etc. Tell me, if that was a 'pit' pup people would be screaming breed bad for sure. But what do you say now that you know its a GSD pup? Ah, poor girl, not socialized properly, possible chemical imbalance, poor breeding? 
Hopefully that gives people an eye opening experience to see the downfall.


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## codmaster

Well said!


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## lrodptl

valreegrl said:


> Wow! Gotta love the media as this is riddled with insults against a breed that is completely unnecessary. I hope too they release a photo of the dogs as there is at least a 50% chance that the dog in question was NOT a "pit".
> 
> Human aggression is not a breed standard for APBT (if that is what you are talking about when you say 'Pitbull' as the word is a social class and not a breed)
> 
> And has everyone missed a HUGE sentence in the article....the one about the husband questioning if this were due to a possible dog fight over food?!?!!!!
> If that were the case you can be darn sure that the injuries were due to redirect or through ignorance of breaking up a dog fight properly. That scenario is much more probably than the dog woke up one day and decided to eat his owner....do you see how ridiculous that sounds.
> 
> And on a Shepherd forum no less...some would think that of all breed lovers they would not be bashing bullies here. YOU have a guarding breed, there have been many many cases of Shepherd bites. Heck, here is a great one for you with all the tossing around of poor breeding.....
> 
> We assessed a 4 month old female GSD from German Import lines.....at 4 months old this pup is coming at you, unpredictable, no signs of a trigger, etc. Tell me, if that was a 'pit' pup people would be screaming breed bad for sure. But what do you say now that you know its a GSD pup? Ah, poor girl, not socialized properly, possible chemical imbalance, poor breeding?
> Hopefully that gives people an eye opening experience to see the downfall.


The 2 trainers/behaviorists I brought my weak nerved/submissive GSD to said they see more weak nerved/fear aggressive/aggressive GSDs than any other breed.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

The difference is that unfortunately the weak nerved GSD is supposed to have some kind of "ability" to aggress against a human (which makes nerve weakness such a mess for GSDs), whereas a weak nerved pitbull never should. That is the hallmark of their breed - or was supposed to be - a dog strong against other animals, but always good with people. 

Whereas we have a totally different type of dog altogether. 

And when you read the pit bull rescue websites you will see - they do not, and cannot tolerate any type of human aggression whatsoever in that breed.


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## DJEtzel

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Wow, I am about to get SO bashed by the Pit owners! I almost dont want to post, but I'm pretty annoyed by the bashing some people did about my post, rather than debating back with facts.


We all used facts to debate you.

YOU, used misinformed opinions to write your repsonses. They're WRONG. You don't have facts on the breeds, so you shouldn't comment. You aren't making this about responsible owners, (I would NEVER let my pit bull visit a dog park, and I expect dog aggression out of them) you are making it about the breed being "bad". Which they are not.


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## Cara Fusinato

So what is the latest from the locals on the incident?

Skye terriers are really vicious beasties? Huh.

I am twice as sad to think these people are/were dedicated advocates for the breed and their story is now being used in the ban pitties arsenal. The irony is just horrible.

As to the pitbulls -- people have flawed the gene pool on this breed to the point it is so murky it will take massive dedicated efforts and some generations to clear. The problem is you have a lot of BYB doing the wrong things. That makes the positive breeding much slower, if not impossible. Sure, you can get APBT of clear, sound, wonderful health, type, and personality. But you are still going to have "the pits" (the gangsta dogs) until those folk move on to some other breed. In a way, it is the blood in the pits but in a way it isn't. It's what people have done to the breed.


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## Glacier

Cara Fusinato said:


> So what is the latest from the locals on the incident?
> 
> Skye terriers are really vicious beasties? Huh.
> 
> I am twice as sad to think these people are/were dedicated advocates for the breed and their story is now being used in the ban pitties arsenal. The irony is just horrible.
> 
> As to the pitbulls -- people have flawed the gene pool on this breed to the point it is so murky it will take massive dedicated efforts and some generations to clear. The problem is you have a lot of BYB doing the wrong things. That makes the positive breeding much slower, if not impossible. Sure, you can get APBT of clear, sound, wonderful health, type, and personality. But you are still going to have "the pits" (the gangsta dogs) until those folk move on to some other breed. In a way, it is the blood in the pits but in a way it isn't. It's what people have done to the breed.


Those 'gangstas' have moved on to another breed, the problem is the breed is short coated, muscular, and has a wide head. They're called '*American Bullies*' and they're pretty much a mix of APBT, Am Staffs, bulldogs, and mastiffs. Which would also account change the shift in temperament. The general public isn't as educated in dog breeds and tends to lump them under the ambiguous 'Pit Bull' title. Heck a good portion of the people who have Am Bullies, don't know what they have since most of their 'breeders' still attempt to pass those 60-100lbs+ dogs off as APBTs. The APBT at its heaviest shouldn't be more than 60lbs.

It's just a bad situation for the APBT, a lot of the true breeders have closed their yards to the public or stopped breeding altogether. It's very hard to get a well bred APBT without first building networks.


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## Cara Fusinato

That's about right American Bullies. So are their owners. There's a reason I don't go down to the city (the infamous Fresno). I like to walk my dogs at a Christian Camp in the National Park (Hume if you are familiar up in Sequoia/Kings Canyon). Gangsta and Christian Camp are unlikely though I did encounter one bully-type there a couple weeks ago and the crummy owner had to hold the collar and chest to keep it from getting to my boys -- it broke free from his hold and attacked a lab right after I walked by. The guy also told me my long-legged GSD/ASTCD pup looked like a great bully pup -- which goes with what you said about people not even knowing. Maybe the "American Bully" will deviate enough away from APBT that they will be not lumped together and the responsible APBT fanciers can clean up the mess and move on with some truly sweet animals. I really don't have a breed bias, I have an crummy owner bias. Can we spay/neuter the crummy owners?


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## cowgirlup_22

That is so very sad  If I remember correctly I read somewhere that Am Staffs or APBT's were _originally _raised to be "baby sitters" for children/families. My neighbor has a gorgeous white and tan male who "baby sits" the kids whenever they are outside(parents are outside with them too) and never once has he ever shown any aggression towards anyone in the family..Strangers who tried coming over the fence into their yard on the other hand he wasn't so kind to. I have always thought that it was bad breeding and naive/stupid owners that has ruined the breed. I personally do not care nor buy into everything that the media writes because I have seen firsthand how they twist things around. Sadly I think GSD's will be next on the list for breeds that are feared. I can't count how many times when I have walked my 2 yr old male gsd Kenai(he is a huge ball of goofiness and weighs in at 95-100lbs) and I have heard comments like," Better not get too close to that dog.He would probably attack!", "He looks like a police dog and they are trained to attack" to name just a few..and last Halloween a woman yanked her child away screaming the entire time that Kenai was going to eat her kid *rolls eyes* all he did was offer the 7yr old girl his paw. Sad how people just don't think... My grandpa told me that an animal is an animal..no matter how well you think you know them,there is a chance that they could turn...be it a dog,cat,goat,cow or horse...


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## DJEtzel

cowgirlup_22 said:


> That is so very sad  If I remember correctly I read somewhere that Am Staffs or APBT's were _originally _raised to be "baby sitters" for children/families. My neighbor has a gorgeous white and tan male who "baby sits" the kids whenever they are outside(parents are outside with them too) and never once has he ever shown any aggression towards anyone in the family..Strangers who tried coming over the fence into their yard on the other hand he wasn't so kind to. I have always thought that it was bad breeding and naive/stupid owners that has ruined the breed. I personally do not care nor buy into everything that the media writes because I have seen firsthand how they twist things around. Sadly I think GSD's will be next on the list for breeds that are feared. I can't count how many times when I have walked my 2 yr old male gsd Kenai(he is a huge ball of goofiness and weighs in at 95-100lbs) and I have heard comments like," Better not get too close to that dog.He would probably attack!", "He looks like a police dog and they are trained to attack" to name just a few..and last Halloween a woman yanked her child away screaming the entire time that Kenai was going to eat her kid *rolls eyes* all he did was offer the 7yr old girl his paw. Sad how people just don't think... My grandpa told me that an animal is an animal..no matter how well you think you know them,there is a chance that they could turn...be it a dog,cat,goat,cow or horse...


They were nanny dogs. Pit bulls? surprising past: Nanny dogs | The Upshot - Yahoo! News


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## cowgirlup_22

DJEtzel said:


> They were nanny dogs. Pit bulls? surprising past: Nanny dogs | The Upshot - Yahoo! News


Thanks for the correction!


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## TankGrrl66

*Pregnant woman killed by pit bull UPDATE*

Pregnant woman killed by pit bull died from blood loss, shock | Reuters

The preliminary autopsy reports have been released via this article. 

It looks even more as if the dog did it now...sucks, bc just about everybody was hoping it wasn't the case...

There goes the ladder theory


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## wyominggrandma

Oh wow, that is so sad. Seems that throws any other "what ifs" right down the drain.


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## Cara Fusinato

I am so very sorry for the husband, the woman's family, the other dog, and responsible pitbull owners and fanciers.


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## Jessiewessie99

MountainGSDs said:


> Once a dog has been created through bad breeding and you have an over sized aggressive weak nerved dog it is the dog. Drastic action must be taken to ensure these dogs are not bred. I'm no expert on DNA but if you have a line of aggressive, weak nerved dogs and you wind up with a couple that are nice so you breed them(BYBs) can those traits pass through to offspring?
> Wolfstraum and Wildhaus are knowledgeable breeders and could probably lend to the discussion.


Once again, it's not the dog it's the bad breeding which is the fault of of bad breeders. A dog can't just wake up and change their DNA. It is nor the dogs fault for having bad genetics it's the breeder who carelessly bred the dogs parents. The dog didnt decide to be born.


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## Chicagocanine

lrodptl said:


> The 2 trainers/behaviorists I brought my weak nerved/submissive GSD to said they see more weak nerved/fear aggressive/aggressive GSDs than any other breed.


I hear that often too... A lot of dog professionals who meet Bianca compliment her and mention that many of the GSDs they see are aggressive or fearful or have a hair trigger, etc... I've heard the same thing from trainers, a behaviorist, groomer and several vets.


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## GregK

Terrible thing what happened here! May the poor woman rest in peace.

A little perspective here though. Last week I read about a teenage boy that stabbed his mother to death when she asked him if he wanted her to make him a sandwich.

It’s awful when a family pet attacks a human family member.

It’s completely horrendous and unacceptable for a human to attack and kill a family member.

As much as we tend to want to ‘humanize’ our dogs, they’re still animals and sometimes that ‘attack’ mode will surface.

Humans on the other hand should know better. Yet humans killing family members happens way more often than the family dog killing a human member of his family.


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## bocron

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If it looks like a pitbull, its a pitbull. Why do pitbull owners try to blame mastiffs so often?? I know what a freaking mastiff looks like, and they are hardly ever in the news.


Cane Corso Mastif Mauls 4-Year-Old Boy In Brooklyn

Woman Injured, Terrier Killed In Violent Dog Attack - News Story - WJAC Johnstown

http://www.coralsprings.com/frontpage2/dogattack.htm

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=7586185

Massive Neapolitan Mastiff bites three-year-old boy’s face | VANCOUVERITE

Boerboel attacks owners - takes 3 shots from the police and then breaks through gate- [Flat] - TribalWar Forums

Around here we get mostly pit bulls as potential training clients, but have had a fair number of Cane Corsos, Neo Mastiffs and Boerboels come through. Personally, I don't love working with any of the mastiffs, they are pretty unpredictable in that they will be sitting there placidly and let a stranger pet them or give a treat and then randomly react. Not a very easy type to read. The pitbulls seem to be more of a problem with other dogs and less so with people. 

I would never own any of the molosser breeds again, but I've just changed in my tastes over the years and prefer the herding dogs. Also, the slobber factor alone rules them out of my house! I'm also not planning on owning a Yorkshire Terrier or a Golden Retriever so I'm not just ruling out the molossers, but am mostly ruling in the herding dogs .


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## SpitzMom

I do worry because many people assume that my GSD is dangerous because of his size although he's never bitten anyone! He does lick if you let him though! Not me because "Mom" doesn't like dog kisses so he just sticks out his tongue like he wants to lick poor guy. But my vet has said numerous times that she's found that other breeds, namely Chows have bitten far more often than GSDs in her years of practice. Just goes to show you that it's not necessarily what you'd expect. Just hate to hear that it's the perception rather than the dog's actual behavior that we judge them on.


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## Zuiun

This is a very tragic incident.

However, reading through this thread, and countless other debates like it all over the Interwebs, I think we all need to agree to stop trotting out the tired and logically false dog bite statistics.

Let me explain:

Yes, according to the statistics, Pit Bull type dogs account for the vast majority of bites. On the surface, this seems to be very damaging evidence against Pits.

The problem is, it's a flawed statistic.

Dog bite data takes into account reported bites. And that's it.

What it doesn't take into account is dog population. There is NO WAY for them to account for how many of any particular breed are out there because the ones that don't bite don't get counted.

The Pit Bull statistic therefore becomes skewed because a) it's a very popular dog, and b) there are enough similar-looking dogs that "Pit Bull" has almost become a generic term when it comes to reporting bites.

In other words, it is simply impossible to state, with any degree of accuracy, that a Pit Bull is "more likely" to show aggression or bite based off of the dog bite statistics. Crucial data (the entire population of Pits) is missing from which to draw a meaningful percentage.

Even the CDC has admitted that they cannot draw "most likely to bite" conclusions based the lack of population data.

Now, having said all of that, I do 100% agree that the popularity and "toughness" of Pit Bull type dogs makes them an attractive target for the worst types of owners, and this certainly contributes to the problem. It also contributes to their huge population. And poor breeding can and does result in the proliferation of undesirable traits.

But again, we're talking about a relatively large population of dogs thanks to their popularity (and incorrect identification). Of course there will be more attacks / bites in that context.


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## RedCrown

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Once again, it's not the dog it's the bad breeding which is the fault of of bad breeders. A dog can't just wake up and change their DNA. It is nor the dogs fault for having bad genetics it's the breeder who carelessly bred the dogs parents. The dog didnt decide to be born.


No, it's not the dog's "fault" for having bad genetics... but you're not recognizing the gravity of the statement you're making. If the ill-tempered, unstable dog didn't "decide to be born," what are you suggesting be done then? Unstable pit-bull type dogs need to be euthanized if they show any trace of escalating human aggression. This is the only way the breed will be saved. There is no room in this world for aggressive pit bulls with so many better examples of the breed needing homes. NO excuses. If it is unstable, put it down. No anthropomorphism- of course it's not the dogs fault, but it is an incorrect animal that people need to take responsibility for and deal with appropriately. 

Although I agree that GSD owners and pit bull owners should walk in each other's shoes in regards to negative public perception, I do feel that the issue and tolerance of human aggression in these breeds are not comparable at all. 

GSDs have been developed as a guardian, working-type dog that, with some training, should be willing to engage with a human. I would "excuse" a bite from my GSD and modify with training, because it wouldn't be an "error" in breed type. If my pits ever bit somebody, or looked like they were going to- they would get the purple juice. Historically, pit bulls have never had that encouragement- it's only within the last 20-30 years has human-aggression been encouraged by unscrupulous "breeders," and this really isn't long enough to change genetic programming. It's NOT "in their blood" to kill people- the only thing that is in their blood are basic canine instincts that they share with every other dog on the planet. 

I realize I am a little more "extreme" than the average APBT owner, but what SHOULD be in their genetic programming is RESTRAINT within their basic canine instincts towards humans- they shouldn't re-direct, they shouldn't resource-guard, they shouldn't be territorial. Other dogs and animals are a different story, but these things should NEVER be present in a stable example of the breed. And because all mixes are tarred with the same brush of public perception, in order to preserve the breed, a no-tolerance policy must be put in place. Sad and unfortunate, but this is what the media has created, and perception is 100% of reality. 

This is a tragic, tragic story. I encourage pit-bull owners, especially owners of "rescues" to occasionally test and push their dogs, to be sure of temperament stability. It's easy to get complacent with your dog that may have never shown any sign of aggression during a daily routine, but insert something out-of the ordinary, and the dog may react badly. Thus comes the expression "bomb-proof."


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

RedCrown - what do you think of people doing bite work with these dogs?


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## RedCrown

I'm a little torn. I _have_ done bitework with Tyranny, my 8 yr APBT, in french ring and Sch. 

In my experience, French Ring sport seems to be much more.. confrontational than Sch. Tyranny started in FR, and then we switched to training in Sch with another club altogether when she seemed to hit a wall. She would just shut down mid-sleeve, drop off and start eating grass or exhibiting other avoidance behaviors. It was apparent that she became uncomfortable with it. Schutzhund was very different.. of course it depends on the training outlook of the individual club, but IMO- if you have a very stable dog and a club that emphasizes bitework as a "game" (focusing on the sleeve, NOT the person wearing the sleeve) then it can be done responsibly. But, this is much easier said than found. 

I think it can boost the breed's reputation in serious working dog circles when you have an amazing example of the breed that is having fun, doing well, and not exhibiting all the high-strung neuroses that other working breeds generally do. I remember being at a trial for FR, and watching a border collie perfect a run nearly flawlessly- but the dog was extremely controlled and focused on the "job" itself, not the person- same look as if it were herding sheep or doing flyball- it also didn't make a sound. Again, APBTs/ASTs must be trained totally differently with a different mindset and outlook than other breeds, but the general bystander may not be able to see the difference. That makes it tough. On one hand "at least they are well-trained," on the other, "they are trained to bite."


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## RedCrown

Here is a link to a good article regarding this incident: 

BAD RAP Blog: reflections on the case in Pacifica, CA


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thanks for that answer! I guess I think it's kind of mean to do that to a BC! It almost sounds like there are helicopter type parents in dogs too - people who think if something looks good to them, and is the cool sport of the moment, their dog should do it. Blah. 

For the PB - so they can do it but not in the way Schutzhund is intended or at least how I understand it. Like a different form of it - the sport and not the breed test? Good info.


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## shilohsmom

I live in Pacifica, this happened not too far from my house. Unfortunately, there are some people now talking about breed banning, not in Pacifica but in another county here in the Bay Area. I don't think they will get far with that but you never know.


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## Jessiewessie99

RedCrown said:


> No, it's not the dog's "fault" for having bad genetics... but you're not recognizing the gravity of the statement you're making. If the ill-tempered, unstable dog didn't "decide to be born," what are you suggesting be done then? Unstable pit-bull type dogs need to be euthanized if they show any trace of escalating human aggression. This is the only way the breed will be saved. There is no room in this world for aggressive pit bulls with so many better examples of the breed needing homes. NO excuses. If it is unstable, put it down. No anthropomorphism- of course it's not the dogs fault, but it is an incorrect animal that people need to take responsibility for and deal with appropriately.
> 
> Although I agree that GSD owners and pit bull owners should walk in each other's shoes in regards to negative public perception, I do feel that the issue and tolerance of human aggression in these breeds are not comparable at all.
> 
> GSDs have been developed as a guardian, working-type dog that, with some training, should be willing to engage with a human. I would "excuse" a bite from my GSD and modify with training, because it wouldn't be an "error" in breed type. If my pits ever bit somebody, or looked like they were going to- they would get the purple juice. Historically, pit bulls have never had that encouragement- it's only within the last 20-30 years has human-aggression been encouraged by unscrupulous "breeders," and this really isn't long enough to change genetic programming. It's NOT "in their blood" to kill people- the only thing that is in their blood are basic canine instincts that they share with every other dog on the planet.
> 
> I realize I am a little more "extreme" than the average APBT owner, but what SHOULD be in their genetic programming is RESTRAINT within their basic canine instincts towards humans- they shouldn't re-direct, they shouldn't resource-guard, they shouldn't be territorial. Other dogs and animals are a different story, but these things should NEVER be present in a stable example of the breed. And because all mixes are tarred with the same brush of public perception, in order to preserve the breed, a no-tolerance policy must be put in place. Sad and unfortunate, but this is what the media has created, and perception is 100% of reality.
> 
> This is a tragic, tragic story. I encourage pit-bull owners, especially owners of "rescues" to occasionally test and push their dogs, to be sure of temperament stability. It's easy to get complacent with your dog that may have never shown any sign of aggression during a daily routine, but insert something out-of the ordinary, and the dog may react badly. Thus comes the expression "bomb-proof."


I still stand by what I said earlier. It is NOT the dog's fault for its bad genetics.It didn't choose to be that way.You are completely misreading what I wrote. I said it is NOT in the breed standard for a pitbull type dog to be HUMAN aggressive(I believe I have stated that MANY times). It is natural for them to DOG aggressive. And IF the dog is HUMAN aggressive they should do whatever it takes to train it out of them(IF possible, and I believe it can happen), rehabilitate them, altering the animal, or do whatever they can if they want to keep the dog. If all else fails, then yes put the dog down. If there is no hope for a dog to be rehabilitated then yes put the dog down.

And once again its NOT the dog's fault for BAD genetics, obviously something went wrong with the breeding for it to take place. Obviously if a good breeder is breeding dogs with bad genetics they shouldn't be breeding the dog. But I don't think good breeders would have this issue as they shouldn't be breeding for human aggression.


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## RedCrown

I don't think I misread you- I am completely aware of the breed standard, and that was also my point. 

I think where you and I (and others) disagree is what to do with the dogs that ARE human-aggressive, by no fault of their own. I have a no-tolerance policy. It may be able to be "trained" to become _manageable_ but I don't think a genetic flaw such as the tendency to react aggressively to humans can be "trained out."

Good breeders sometimes do have this problem, but you may not ever know because those puppies are not allowed to live. They are (should be) culled, and not allowed to grow into a problem waiting to happen.

I guess my main point is that I too, am tired of seeing excuses for dangerous behavior in a breed that I care very much about. Of course it's not the dog's fault. But if human-aggressive tendencies are a problem, then owners need to be courageous enough to deal with it it appropriately, and not hide behind excuses of "poor socialization," "abused," etc.


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## juliejujubean

that poor woman, and the baby. The husbands whole world is flipped upside down. I wonder why the dog did it, each of my dogs would never harm any one, especially me. I can not believe this


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Your dogs COULD harm you though. Will they? HUGELY unlikely. Could they? Yes, because they are animals - as we all are. And we all have the potential to do damage to another animal.


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## sparra

Well....it has happened here too....this happened yesterday in Melbourne.
4yr old killed IN HER HOUSE by the neighbours dog. They are saying pit bull mastiff cross.....just shouldn't happen should it......
Girl clung to mum's leg as dog attacked 

I have never posted a link before so I hope it worked.....


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## Zuiun

juliejujubean said:


> I wonder why the dog did it, each of my dogs would never harm any one, especially me. I can not believe this


I'm not trying to single you out to pick on you, so please don't take the following that way.

However, your comment is a pretty common problem in the world of dog ownership.

As others have said, your dog is an animal FIRST. Even though domesticated, they have some pretty primal instincts and like almost every animal other than humans, they lack complex critical thinking and consequential thinking skills. When in doubt, they resort to their instincts, which include a pretty strong prey drive and an equally strong fight-or-flight response.

My Brody and Tsura are the sweetest dogs I've ever owned. I've seen Brody, all 105 pounds of him, play with small children with gentleness and awareness of his size and strength that was pretty amazing.

But I've also seen him give the nastiest growl and snap at Tsura when she pushes his buttons a little too far. She knows to back off. A kid might not.

Intellectually, because they are well behaved and well socialized, I believe that Brody or Tsura would never hurt anyone who wasn't a direct threat to me or my home. But my common sense tells me that I shouldn't rely on that belief, because at the end of the day, they are still dogs.


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## valreegrl

15 pages of bashing back and forth  

The issue lies in dogs, period. We have become a throw away society and do not VALUE our pets. Until that happens, we are going to hear stories like this over and over again. Put value back in and people will step up to the plate and TRAIN their pets due to the financial strain. At that point, nobody is going to want their $2K+ dog to end up at the shelter. See where I am going with this....

Instead of bashing and banning an entire breed of dog (and in the case of bully's, many breeds) we need to come together and CHANGE what is happening. From a forum full of lovers of a GUARDING breed you would think more tolerance would be shown. 

Bully's are the dog of the day at the moment. We have one side breeding the heck out of them, making money on mistreatment and then the other side where it is cool to save them. But there are 4 million dogs who are put to sleep in this country! 4 million DOGS. Who cares what breed they are at that point, they are DEAD. 

Put all this energy into making a difference and you will see staggering results


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## valreegrl

Just an FYI: In Sweden, they have stopped all the nonsense associated with dog ownership by adding VALUE. Here is an excerpt from a forum: 

_No such thing as a fair price for a dog here, even a stray. The cheapest dog I have ever seen for sale is 4000:- and that was for a mixed breed they couldn't identify. I have only ever seen one dog at a shelter, again, a mixed breed, and the adoption fee was 3500:-, if I remember correctly. Full blooded terriers of different varieties seem to go for 10,000:- and up. We're were thinking of adopting a pet in the US, chipping it and bringing it back with us, but the long flight would be cruel._

Imagine if that were the case in the US! What's better, the most common dog there is the GSD followed by Labrador. 
They do not have a stray dog problem, no dog fighting, their shelters are basically empty. 
See where I am going with this....


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## selzer

I do not think anywhere is perfect, not even Sweden:
Pit bull attack sends four to hospital - The Local

If you read some of the comments at the bottom:

too bad they did not kill the owners of the dogs too,

I hope the final chapter in this is a ban on these dogs, no one needs a dog bred specifically for fighting, and won't let my kids within 10 meters of one


** just a sampling, sounds familiar.


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## selzer

I am horrified about the little girl in Australia. A room full of people and the mother of the girl fighting the dog off another little girl and hers gets killed. Breeding bullies to mastiffs gives them size. I do not think a pit bull dog could kill me, not if I am conscious and not tied down. But a pitt/mastiff mix? There is a big difference between a 30 to 50 pound dog, and a dog that weighs 100 and up. Both have teeth, yes. It's like, yeah I may have tooth marks from my parents cat, but I might get killed from a mountain lion.


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## wyominggrandma

Doesn't matter what breed it is, big or small, any dog can do damage to a person when they bite, whether they "mean to' or not. People are killed and people are mauled by dogs all the time. People own dogs who "didn't mean to bite this person" or "well, something triggered the dog, that is why he attacked that person".
We will probably never know what the trigger was for the poor woman in Pacifica. Did she step on the dog,then fall and the dog attacked her? I can only imagine that somehow she had to have injured herself to not be able to fight off the dog, but since we don't know what happened, who knows.
But, no matter what causes a dog to bite, I just don't understand why so many people make up excuses why their dog did it. I guess I am different than most, I love my dogs dearly, they are a big part of my everyday life, they go with me everywhere, BUT if my dogs actually bit a person and drew blood, then I am sorry but there is no excuse for the bite and I would euthanize the dog. Harsh to some, yes? But, there are too many dogs who bite and whos owner make excuses for them and keep burying their head in the sand trying to ignore it. Had this boy growled at his owners before, or snapped at them, but because they "loved" their dog, raised him from a puppy and figured he "didn't mean to growl or bite or whatever" maybe they ignored the issue and it ended with a person dying.
I realize I am in the minority about this, but to me, once a dog bites a human for whatever reason, then there is only one answer. I just had a long talk with a very "big" GSD breeder and was talking about biting GSD's and how there are so many posts on this forum alone about GSD's biting and everyone saying" must be a reason, talk to a trainer, talk to a behaviouist" and told her that I felt so strongly about biting dogs and she said" if one of my dogs bite a person, for whatever reason, they would be dead by the end of the day". 
I was glad to find I was not the only one that felt so strongly. Too many people make excuses for a dog bite and when it esculates, then they can't understand how it happened. Too many excuses are given, the signs are missed and the next bite is worse.


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## selzer

I have put a dog down for biting. He was high energy, high drive, working/pet lines, and my first dog. I failed him in many ways, including letting him get himself run over by a truck. I did not have the money to put a rod in, but the vet told me how to let him heal in a crate. It healed crooked and had pain from it for the rest of his life -- 5.5 years more. He was scary around kids, and family, and finally I was not happy with him for not allowing my other dog to eat, and was taking him to the crate and he bit my wrist as a warning (no blood), I did not stop so he bit my hand, and laid open three fingers. 

If I knew when I got him half of what the average poster here knows about dogs, this would have never happened in the first place. I thought we did not do well together because he was 10 weeks old when I got him. I got my next pup MUCH younger she was just under six weeks old. I already had her when I put Frodo down -- she was over a year old. So, the problems with him were not out of the blue. 

I have had worse damage from other dogs, but those two incidents happened in the course of a dog fight. If you put your hand into where two dogs are fighting, and you get a bloody hand, would you put one or both dogs down? I did not. But Frodo's bite was calculated and deliberate. In simplistic terms, deliberately biting the hand that feeds you does not make your future look so bright. I do blame myself for some of his issues, but not for him biting me. I blamed myself when I got my hand bitten by two dogs fighting, and when I got my leg bitten between two bitches. That will leave a mark, was about all I could think -- not anger or possibly putting the dogs down.


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## wyominggrandma

Dogs fighting each other, bitches fighting each other and getting bit because a hand or leg is not in the right place to me is not a reason for euthanisia.
A dog randomly deciding to bite a person for whatever reason is...
(I am not talking about an injured dog and trying to get it to a vet or a dog in pain, I am talking a dog that bites a person )


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