# Question: What do your clubs do, in the face of the AR movement?



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Since I'm guessing most everyone here has probably witnessed the Crufts / PETA footage by now, and the protests at the beginning of the Iditarod earlier this month....

How many of your training clubs are already taking preventative or precautionary measures in the face of AR extremists?

Do you increase privacy and restrict videoing, or do you take a more proactive approach and go out of your way to share, try and educate, and "prove" that the dogs are healthy and given excellent care?

Sharing video in private networks only? Making your breeding/training groups private on social media? Banning certain types of training tool? Doing and publicizing "pro bono" work with rescues or mixes to try and prove that you aren't breed elists?

Curious. I'd like to have a thoughtful discussion.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

We just train everything in a purely positive Peta approved training approach. Hugs and warm coco for all the dogs. Electric, prong, and choke collars are only allowed to be worn by the humans. Every dog is a winner and all get a chance to sit on the podium. It's very very nice. ???
Even though all of these methods are in place. Some common sense should be used. Don't post dumb stuff on social media. Actually all media should be approved by the training director before posting. This is where I see the most trouble. Posting something on social media where AR people can demonize and use to make ludicrous claims about abuse and torture.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Heck, PETA dosen't think dogs should be kept for pets. How about IGNORE?

Although it takes the extreme to move the middle. For instance, now McDonalds and others only use cage free eggs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

PETA would even take offense at nosework. There is no stopping the AR's and trying to isolate training, or dog events is playing into their agenda.
I am all for not showing videos of training certain things because it can always be taken out of context. There really is no reason to do so, unless you are explaining each and every step for instruction, and even then judgement will occur.

The AR's and PETA need to know, we as dog owners, handlers and competitors will not bow down to them or allow their influence to have us 'hide' our trials and competitions.
They are radical and their voice isn't as loud as they believe.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Heck, PETA dosen't think dogs should be kept for pets. How about IGNORE?
> 
> Although it takes the extreme to move the middle. For instance, now McDonalds and others only use cage free eggs.


We'd ignore, but these extremists have been known to endanger or even kill dogs at shows. Dogs at shows are being assessed for BREEDING. And BREEDING is the worst of the worst when it comes to AR/PETA/HSUS. So it is better to poison or remove and KILL these dogs, than to allow their evil owners to carry through their diabolical plans for the dogs. 

Some of us have more than one dog entered in a show. We park near the rings, if they are outside, and we have elaborate set-ups, crates, open backs of our vehicles, sun visors and such. Our dogs are perfectly fine, more comfortable than we are, and when we are not in the ring, we are right with them. But if we are in the ring, our dog is crated in or near our vehicle. 

The extremists have been known to release dogs from their safe crates, meaning they run everywhere, which can easily be across busy roadways. And they have also poisoned dogs in their crates. 

If these people are ever caught, the most they ever get is a slap on the wrist. Our dogs are not safe from these people because no one takes it seriously. By the time people figure it out that their dog was targeted by an AR person, the show is over, the dog is dead, and no one knows anything. 

The only thing I can do is bring one dog if I am alone. If I have two dogs entered, then I need two people. Don't let ANYONE give your dog a treat, either. It sucks to have to be paranoid, but some things you can't take back.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> We just train everything in a purely positive Peta approved training approach. Hugs and warm coco for all the dogs. Electric, prong, and choke collars are only allowed to be worn by the humans. Every dog is a winner and all get a chance to sit on the podium. It's very very nice. ???
> Even though all of these methods are in place. Some common sense should be used. Don't post dumb stuff on social media. Actually all media should be approved by the training director before posting. This is where I see the most trouble. Posting something on social media where AR people can demonize and use to make ludicrous claims about abuse and torture.


Not only do we consider the AR but the general impression of John Q Public in general. Our IPO club, after a hot summer practice, may break open a few beers with grilled brats. But that was never to be photographed and posted online. Not to hide it but more to not open a can of worms that didn't need opening. 

We need to be extra considerate posting here! These older style forums don't have privacy settings beyond using the PM system. Anyone anywhere can read these posts.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

When it comes to any hot topic, or any sport for that matter, pictures and video should be approved before being published. Easier said than done, social media exists and it isn't going anywhere. Plus, if you are in a place where you are in the public eye, and it is an editorial quality event like a sports event, people are allowed to take pictures. If you are in a private property not visible from the street, then absolutley ban cameras and video taking without explicit approval and right to edit before publication. In other words, hire or designate a trusted source and vett what goes out.

I do not do dog sport at this time, but I am a firearms and martial arts instructor. < One of these is a current sizzling topic.

I stopped allowing photography or video in my classes unless it is one of us instructors, and I have turned down the press consistently after learning my lesson 2 years ago, twice. They did a long interview with me...one segment they were asking about a very competent young 15 year old lady name Kate Francis who was a prolific competitor and a prodigy. They asked me if I thought she should have access to her safe. I said "yes, she is a trustworthy kid and has proven her maturity and trust". They cut out my ENTIRE half hour interview except for that ONE sentence, and they rolled it out out of context right before a moving video story about a mom whose kid shot themselves with her gun. Great! Never again. 

That happens with sports or lessons of any kind. I was teaching a martial arts class, the local paper was there, and I was demonstrating what NOT to do. Don't lean far back on a technique, you can fall...etc etc. Welp, that is the shot the Start Ledger chose to publish. They had no idea it was a "don't do this" shot.

After those 2 incidents and quite a few others where video was chopped, pics were stolen and used out of context, or pics I hated of me because they did not highlight what I felt was a good representation of technique, I do not allow students or spectators to take ANY pictures of video of anything I am teaching or running while we are in a private place or property (i.e when I am allowed to stop it). I have somebody I trust do it, then they have me approve it. Then I freely hand out video and pics to people that were there so they can share away.

Again, not dog sport, but the concept of hot topics and video etc makes it kind of relevant.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Selzer, you hit on some of the specifics that I've been hearing in other groups. 

I used to think a lot of this was being exaggerated, but in the past year I've changed my mind a little. 

My state has signage now that can be purchased and displayed at events involving animals where the general public is likely to attend. 

Essentially it's a posted warning that anyone who spectates and observes any type of "agricultural tourism" accepts the risk of seeing or coming into with contact animals that may behave unpredictably. And reminders that animals make noises, defecate, and have sex outdoors. The first time I saw one I thought it was a joke ("WARNING: COFFEE IS HOT"), but now I'm seeing them more often at dog events. 

Some of the aftermath of Crufts prompted a big conversation yesterday about changing the longstanding tradition of publishing handler/entry addresses in show/trial premiums.... Which struck a nerve with me when I pulled out some paperwork of mine from last year, and sure enough, there's my home address in tiny print in the back of the premium booklet. 

So far this year it seems that conformation & mushing have been the targets, but the "Better Dead Than Bred" mindset could easily fall on the wrong side of any venue where people test and compare dogs.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

It's starting. There is a show coming up, and they are putting out messages to be vigilant and aware of AR and PETA activists. 

My club practices right next to a police station, or on private property in a back yard. So the threat isn't as bad.

I'm curious what would happen if one of these activists went to a club and were bit. Hmm, new training scenario? Kidding.....


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I’ve been to shows where they’ve announced over the PA, to be vigilant with your dogs, that known AR people have been spotted in the show site. It’s scary to think someone would poison your dogs, or just turn them loose.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Our regional club has upped their relatable Facebook posts. Cute memes and videos that anyone who likes dogs might find cute. The club itself hasn't commented on Crufts, but a lot of members are sharing and passing around the "hey, be aware and be safe at dog shows" posts.

I haven't been to a show or event since Crufts, and I also skipped the last club meeting, so I'm not sure what is being said or done offline.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Heck, PETA dosen't think dogs should be kept for pets. How about IGNORE?
> 
> Although it takes the extreme to move the middle. For instance, now McDonalds and others only use cage free eggs.


Well, McDonald's may _say_ it uses cage-free eggs but it's just been shown that despite a pledge to use less salt and sugar in its food, it has more than it used to. I have the feeling that the definition of "cage" has simply been redefined, because there are a LOT of McDonald's all over the world, and I doubt there are that many "cage-free egg" suppliers. Sometimes the extreme doesn't move the middle as much as it gets the middle to use weasel words to get the extreme off its back.

But I could be wrong. I'm definitely cynical!

I agree that PETA deserves contempt, or at best, to be ignored. They're a ridiculous group into publicity stunts and they will absolutely ignore or resist any attempts to educate them about the practices used in schutzhund/personal protection training. They don't want to know that some dogs need jobs to do. They don't want to know that handlers spend a lot of time and energy figuring out how to bond with and motivate their dogs. I think a lot of PETA members hate people. Truly, how does someone reason with a person who feels that chimps (and fish and dogs, etc) should have lawyers and be able to sue people?

I think a club would do well to consider public relations when it puts out videos on websites, and consider doing outreach when it can. In the event that an obnoxious* AR group comes out to protest and cause a disturbance, firm warnings about trespassing should be given and if ignored, have arrests made. AR groups tend to enjoy vandalism as a form of acting out. 

* If a more reasonable AR group (or better yet, an individual or two, though AR people prefer to travel in packs) comes out, I'd advise making an attempt at showing them that working dogs like the motivation and rewards that handlers give them. They like the exercise. Show and explain to them how counterproductive it would be to mistreat a dog, and why/how prong collars are used to teach, not punish. Maybe these lessons would get through.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would never leave my dog alone in a public place. While living in Eur., a coursing/show champion sight hound was injected with poison at a show through his crate. Our coursing club advised me to not ever leave my aspiring pup unsupervised. Also I don't want to leave Griff in the crate in the car at this age. In OR it is legal for "rescuers" to free a pup in distress from a car. So as long as he still howls once in a while, no alone time in the car.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

wolfy dog said:


> I would never leave my dog alone in a public place. While living in Eur., a coursing/show champion sight hound was injected with poison at a show through his crate.


I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that "animal rights" groups would poison dogs and kill them in an attempt to deter participation in shows. But, that's why I often say to myself "don't try to apply logic to crazy people's motivations." There's no point trying to understand evil. We need to neutralize it by being vigilant against such acts and incarcerating the bad actors.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

In their twisted minds they see it as sacrificing a "breeder" from preventing even more animals from being in their horrid state of existence. It is awful, and they are the lunatic fringe.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

PETA is completely off the rails crazy and I wish they'd stay far away from dogs particularly working dogs.

I no longer post public videos of my dogs working in protection. 

But to touch on Iditarod briefly- there are some issues I wish could be addressed in a reasonable manner and without any PETA involvement. Racing sled dogs are warehoused on chains for the vast majority of their lives, running circles in their own waste, with next to no time off leash. A kennel of roughly 150 to 200 dogs is generally required to field a top-20 contender Iditarod team. That means many litters of pups are being produced, and culling is a reality for an old (over age 7), injured, slow or ill dog. 

Sled dogs have almost no shelter from the cold, sun, rain, or mosquitoes. In summer, up to 50 or more dogs are staked out in the boggy woods with only one or two visits a week. So the tourists don't see a whole ton of dogs when they visit the kennels. Dogs die from injury, a moose or bear visit, and can go neurotic. 

Anyway, I could go on, but there are some issues with the care and keep of sled dogs that do need to be thought about and possibly addressed reasonably. I'm not reading propaganda material, either. I have seen this first-hand. Except for culling, ugh, I heard about that from former handlers. 

I just wish PETA would stay away from working dogs and go back to LA where they belong... I don't think my likelihood of running into a PETA activist where I live is very high at all... and they'd probably be terrified enough just of my dogs' barking to steer clear... I don't get the impression they are very brave. 

Also, cage-free just means the chickens aren't penned, they are still in a warehouse with very little room and no natural light. I think you need to look for the "free range" label? 

I saw some dog food promoting "farm raised" chicken. I was thinking, huh? It seems to me every single chicken, even if warehoused in a cage, is raised on a "farm" technically.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

PETA people are cuckoo and should be jailed if they are caught doing harm to animals by their stupidity. Their judgment seems to be off. It’s a shame because there is so much work to be done to help animals but yet PETA likes to stay on their hamster wheel.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> Well, McDonald's may _say_ it uses cage-free eggs but it's just been shown that despite a pledge to use less salt and sugar in its food, it has more than it used to. I have the feeling that the definition of "cage" has simply been redefined, because there are a LOT of McDonald's all over the world, and I doubt there are that many "cage-free egg" suppliers. Sometimes the extreme doesn't move the middle as much as it gets the middle to use weasel words to get the extreme off its back.
> 
> But I could be wrong. I'm definitely cynical!
> 
> ...


I know that "Cage Free" is usually factory farm BS. They are still packed by the tens of thousands shoulder to shoulder. And the "Free Range" BS, that means the 100,000 bird hen houses have little wire porches every thirty feet. This is just to make McDonalds customers feel good but still, the customers were educated by AR people to want this. They imagine their 'egg mcmuffin' hens being able to run around outside and eat bugs. 

What I meant by it takes the extremes to move the center it is about human societal norms in general. I am thinking about how fur coats became uncool. So the PETA people making donkeys of themselves in public are trying to do just that., get attention. And even the extremes have extremists so who knows? But I find it hard to believe that an organization that claims to love animals more than people would kill animals. The stuff you read on the internet, (social media I don't use it) but I imagine some of this could be rumors and chain email sorts of things gone wild. Sure they might set dogs free but putting an obvious poison like antifreeze in dog water seems more like a some kind of a common nutcase.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Regarding laying hens, the terminology is as clear as mud. The most misleading label of all is "vegetarian fed" eggs.... sounds good, right? Wrong. 
Chickens love eating bugs, and buying "vegetarian fed" eggs is an ironclad guarantee those birds never had a chance at natural behavior. 

https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2012/04/6/eggstra-eggstra-learn-all-about-them

https://www.flickr.com/photos/usdagov/6904946814/sizes/h/

By far, the best choice with poultry is to know your farmer.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Nurse Bishop said:


> But I find it hard to believe that an organization that claims to love animals more than people would kill animals. The stuff you read on the internet, (social media I don't use it) but I imagine some of this could be rumors and chain email sorts of things gone wild. Sure they might set dogs free but putting an obvious poison like antifreeze in dog water seems more like a some kind of a common nutcase.


You have a good point and it made me consider that maybe, some of these poisoned dogs could be victims of unscrupulous persons paid to "eliminate competition". It's a crazy world.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I believe the story about antifreeze being dumped in dog water pails at a show was debunked, though I could be wrong. 

But the matter at Crufts was filmed, and PETA's responses on their official social media page are alarming.... They are absolutely against breeding dogs, and do not think that there is such a thing as a "good" breeder.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

WIBackpacker said:


> Some of the aftermath of Crufts prompted a big conversation yesterday about changing the longstanding tradition of publishing handler/entry addresses in show/trial premiums.... Which struck a nerve with me when I pulled out some paperwork of mine from last year, and sure enough, there's my home address in tiny print in the back of the premium booklet.


This is why I plan on getting a PO Box before I start showing (unless I move to small town SK in which case I'd have a box anyway). There is no reason to publish mailing addresses any more with the advent of email and social media. **** near nobody is going to write a letter on paper and snail mail it to a potential breeder while looking for a puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nurse Bishop said:


> But I find it hard to believe that an organization that claims to love animals more than people would kill animals. The stuff you read on the internet, (social media I don't use it) but I imagine some of this could be rumors and chain email sorts of things gone wild. Sure they might set dogs free but putting an obvious poison like antifreeze in dog water seems more like a some kind of a common nutcase.


99% of dogs that go into PETA run shelters are euthanized. No other shelter or pound has that bad of a record. They do NOT love domestic animals. They want animals to stay in the wild, and the whole concept of pets, working animals (police dogs, seeing eye dogs, horses), agriculture with animals, they want all of that to END. 

They do not love pets. They want NO pets. They will adopt a dog out to buyer if one comes through the door and happens to meet their criteria and finds a dog that fits him, but they make zero effort to publicize their dogs, etc. Sometimes, they take animals and kill them on their way to the shelter. They are NOT friends of domestic animals. They are actually domestic terrorists, and our companion animals are not safe from any of them.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

as far as eggs go, cage free can be a disaster. My hubby worked on a poultry farm and the cage free birds were all in a large warehouse, like a crowd of people in a theater lobby waiting for the opening day of a very popular movie. But unlike movie goers the chickens are stupid. If a weasel or predator was stalking around the OUTSIDE of the building the chickens would all run to the other side of the building, pile up and squash and suffocate each other. That was many many years ago and maybe things have changed. It is a waste of money for these farmers to loose birds that way, but that was what Cage Free meant then. 

As far as the crazies go, our job is to go be ambassadors. When the nuts come around, people can look at them and then us and decide who has their heads on straight.


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## btfloyd (Oct 11, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> You have a good point and it made me consider that maybe, some of these poisoned dogs could be victims of unscrupulous persons paid to "eliminate competition". It's a crazy world.


My nephew races Motocross at a semi-pro level, and he is very, very good. At an event out west, someone put sugar in his gas tank when they went out to lunch. Yeah, there's people out there that would rather drag you down to their level than make themselves better (or their dog, etc). 

I can tell you that I would protect my girl like one of my own children. Mama bear don't have nothing on Big Grizz!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I don't show or compete with my dogs, but I have seen some bizarre things directed at dogs and dog owners. I check my yard religiously for any foreign objects or anomalies and all my dogs are taught to leave found treasures alone. Never out of sight, never unattended. 
It sucks for them I guess, but they are safe. If I leave dogs are confined in the house and the people that I trust with my dogs number fewer then the fingers on one hand. I won't take them in the car unless I have eyes on at all times.
If I were to compete in anything, I wouldn't go without a trusted friend along. Even if just for an extra set of eyes.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> You have a good point and it made me consider that maybe, some of these poisoned dogs could be victims of unscrupulous persons paid to "eliminate competition". It's a crazy world.


Years back, every show I went to, there was this pit bull that always kicked everyone's butt in Rally. It would get first, I would get second. I started watching for it. Is that pit (probably a staffordshire terrier because this was before mixes or breeds not recognized by the AKC could participate) here? There goes any chance of the blue. Thoughts of ham-stringing that dog might have played in my less than charitable brain -- and no I would NEVER do anything like that, but why kill a dog when it would be just as easy to throw him off by using a bitch in heat, or any number of things. Dog people, however mad for ribbons and championships, do not kill other people's dogs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> Dog people, however mad for ribbons and championships, do not kill other people's dogs.


 Don't believe this for a bit. People get killed for less. Not every dog person is sane.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

selzer said:


> Don't let ANYONE give your dog a treat, either. It sucks to have to be paranoid, but some things you can't take back.


Slow Clap........... (now I am gonna rant a minute)

Thank you! I don't show, never have, but I have always had "scary breeds", mostly Dobermans. People will do nasty things, even those that aren't PETA. I had a person try to slip my dobe a dog biscuit that had been dipped in antifreeze because he didn't like dobes. Oh, that didn't end well for him at all. I was just a wee bit peeved and I ripped him one.

People have always thought I am just a terrible owner. But, when I see my dog about to take ANYTHING from the hands of someone who is not on the approved list, I give a harsh correction to both the dog and the person. Bella wouldn't accept treats from anyone other than my household and my father in law (he had to care for her in case I was unavailable). IF someone offered her a treat, she would sniff it and give me a guilty look before she walked away.

This training, to me, is just as essential as a solid "COME HERE" and an instant "STOP".


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

Muskeg said:


> Also, cage-free just means the chickens aren't penned, they are still in a warehouse with very little room and no natural light. I think you need to look for the "free range" label?
> 
> I saw some dog food promoting "farm raised" chicken. I was thinking, huh? It seems to me every single chicken, even if warehoused in a cage, is raised on a "farm" technically.


We farm, so I am fairly up to date on agriculture "stuff". Currently there isn't a legal definition or standard for egg labels, other than "organic". Many "free range" eggs are produced from birds that stand on dirt. It's not necessarily the green pastures that people envision. A hen in a two foot cage placed on a dirt patch qualifies as free ranged.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My club trains dogs at a public park in the winter/spring, visitors are always welcome, and they also have softball leagues playing come spring. We do not hide. Of course our club is also run by a K-9 officer and they train their police dogs there at times too. In the summer we train at a facility owned by a local union. We have trained while part of the pavilion is being used by other people having family gatherings and when people are fishing in the big pond.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Genalis_mom said:


> We farm, so I am fairly up to date on agriculture "stuff". Currently there isn't a legal definition or standard for egg labels, other than "organic". Many "free range" eggs are produced from birds that stand on dirt. It's not necessarily the green pastures that people envision. A hen in a two foot cage placed on a dirt patch qualifies as free ranged.


EXACTLY! People just don't understand why caging hens became popular. Hens will peck one another to death. A hen with an open wound is more than likely a goner. And 'cage-free' often means hundreds of birds crammed into a windowless concrete and steel building. My country cousins were often hired to catch these birds come time to send them to market. Chasing down the birds on a floor slippery with excrement was a hazardous exercise, for both humans and birds. There was pressure on the catchers to do it as fast a possible, and many hens would be injured in the process, either while running from the catchers, while being caught, or while being shoved into a cage. Also, hens shoved into cages with birds they don't know will fight and possibly injure each other.

Battery cages may seem inhumane, but they reduced injuries and losses suffered by these cage-free birds. 

Yes, there ARE better ways, just wanted to explain that cage free does NOT equal 'humane'!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And don't forget the weasels and ***** and fox and yotes that will raid your hens if they are not secured in a strong enclosure when the little bad words are out there foraging. Does cage-free mean that your critters are on their own to protect themselves? 

Now, I am only familiar with folks that have small farming operations, a dozen or so hens and a rooster. So I am not familiar with foks that have hundreds of layers all laying and having hen parties where they peck each other to death.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

These are the eggs I buy- in the video it looks like a pretty good life for a hen. https://nelliesfreerange.com/certified-humane-free-range/free-range/

I prefer to raise my own, but at the moment, don't have a flock.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I've said it before and I'll say it again... terminology and labeling policies in the USA do not give the consumer enough facts to make an informed decision - 

If you care about the quality of life of the poultry who lay your eggs or provide your chicken dinner, the only real choice right now is to choose a farmer that uses methods you agree with. 

Breed of bird matters immensely. The two most popular production breeds (leghorns for eggs and Cornish X's for meat) are obnoxiously clueless and lack social skills (in a flock environment) and survival instincts (predator avoidance) compared to other breeds. I know, I've raised them. I'll never raise either, ever again. The leghorns couldn't read bird behavior and couldn't settle into a mixed flock, and the Cornish crosses were such mindless gluttons I had to make sure they went into the coop when it stormed; otherwise they might have just looked up and drowned. Or tried to keep eating. Never again... 

There's a diverse palette of other breeds available - breeds with good (genetic!) social tendencies for interactive flock life, and the sense to go inside out of the rain and duck and run from hawks or other potential threats. 

We don't have any problems accepting the suitability of dog breeds for one task or another - well, many agricultural animals are exactly the same.


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## Katanya (Nov 27, 2017)

oops


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