# Meet K-9 Boru



## Slamdunc

Here is my new K-9 Partner "Boru." Named after the legendary King of Ireland, Brian Boru. I mentioned that I had the opportunity to get a very nice dog that wasn't working out with his team mates. Boru is a KNPV titled Belgian Malinois X Dutch Shepherd tested, selected and imported in November by some very talented trainers that work with a very elite unit. Boru wasn't working out as intended for them, he had an issue with multiple handlers working him. As I mentioned in another thread, he nailed a couple of handlers and a trainer. This was not an option for the types of missions these guys do. 

I got Boru last Thursday and noticed a couple of issues which I mentioned. One was that he had some apprehension about "loading up" in the car. Initially, I didn't want to fight with this dog and was trying a take it slow, more motivational approach. He is just over 3 years old, very large, very strong and very intense. I don't like to fight with dogs and especially not this dog knowing some of his history. Well, the first days were a little rough getting him into the car. I used food and waited, and waited until he jumped in. I think it took 20 minutes one very cold and rainy night. The fact that it was midnight and I wanted to take care of my other dogs and tired, didn't help. I have fed him 3 x a day in the car. All his meals were fed in the car and he had to get in to eat. 

I kept at it for 4 or 5 days and I could see the anxiety go away and the time shortened. We bonded and have an awesome relationship. He is a great dog, that is actually very affectionate and fun. I think his association was that he had with the car was being put away for hours and the fun was over, combined with some E collar work to get him in the car. 

We have a 12 acre fenced training compound with multiple buildings to use. I brought him there Monday, locked the gates and let him run. I played the "two ball game" to work the out and recall. Hid in a large building and called him in to find me. A fun easy way to start building search training. 

I gave him his toy and he laid in the grass chewing on it. I placed cheese in the back of the car, opened the cage to the front seat and left the rear door open. I drove about 20 yards and he came running to the car. He then jumped in and ate the cheese. The cage was open and I petted and praised him. He jumped out and I put more cheese out and he jumped in and out. 

I am very happy to say that getting in the car is no longer and issue and something Boru really enjoys. He was in and out with ease today at training with a very eager jump in. He now waits when I open the door and will stand to be praised, petted and loved on when he hops in. 

Here are a couple pics of my new partner:


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## Slamdunc

No handler aggression with me, quite the opposite, I feel that I have had this dog his whole life. But, he is a drivey, civil dog and today was the first day of bite work with him. Wow, he is a beast and a bad ass, in a good way. I was expecting a very edgy dog, that I would have to work on capping and him not being frantic. Man, he is clear headed, took a lot of pressure and was very comfortable with me approaching, petting and handling him on the bite. He has that real full, pushing KNPV style of bite that I really like and brings some real nice power. He impressed the decoy, the two PDs that were there and me. It was super nice.


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## Slamdunc

Did I say that I am super happy? I am super happy with this dog, I hit the power ball with him. Oh, and excellent hips, elbows and spine. X rays were fantastic. 

I was told that he is a "one person" dog and needed to work with one handler. His original occupation called for several handlers and he did not do well in that environment. I have spent time drinking coffee with this dog outside and he just wants to hug me and drink my coffee. In less than a week he is exceeding my expectations and progressing faster than I would have thought. I can't wait to certify and catch some bad guys with this dog. 

Tomorrow more bite work and hard surface tracking. I will get some video to post if anyone is interested as we train.


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## Chip18

OMG, that is the first Mal/Dutchie I've ever seen! So that is the don't like multi handlers guy! And of course, video's nice work on the car thing.


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## CindyMDBecker

Wow! Lucky dog getting YOU. And that picture of you two hugging ... that says it all. Gorgeous dog! Very happy for you both. Awesome!


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## MyHans-someBoy

Very interested in video and following your training with this dog. He sounds fantastic, just needed the right handler. He looks huge in the pictures! 
Congrats!


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## Shade

Beautiful dog and he sounds amazing! May you have a productive and safe career together, definitely keep us updated on his progress and go kick some butt Boru!


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## Suka

Slamdunc very cool posts and pics.


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## kaslkaos

Thanks! What a happy post. I'd say I'm jealous (I am) but I have neither the ability or inclination to work with such an amazing dog, so I'm content to live vicaryously through you. I read every word, would LOVE to see videos.


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## ksotto333

What a great story. And thank you both for all you do.


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## cliffson1

Good looking dog Jim! I really like your approach to the issue. Trust and bond are so very important in LE work, and whatever tools you use( food, praise, toys, balls, love, etc) so your craftsmanship in your work with dogs. Big time respect from me!


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## cliffson1

Good looking dog Jim! I really like your approach to the issue. Trust and bond are so very important in LE work, and whatever tools you use( food, praise, toys, balls, love, etc) shows your craftsmanship in your work with dogs. Big time respect from me!


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## Jax08

Congrats Jim! He looks awesome!! 

OT: did you retire Boomer?


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## Slamdunc

Thank you all very much! I'm super excited about training and working with this dog. It seems it was one of those things that was meant to be. He was tested and selected out of 45 dogs in Holland by some friends who train some very elite dogs. They spent a good amount of money on him and were correct in their assessment that he needs one handler. The vendor wanted this dog to get a good working home and offered him to me at a price my PD would pay and it was an awesome deal. I am still working "Boomer" for the next few months while I train Boru. 

Yes, he is a big, lanky all legs of a dog right now. He is a skinny 65 lbs and will probably wind up being about 70 lbs of muscle.


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## Jax08

The vendor made an excellent choice in you.


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## Slamdunc

Jax,
Not yet. I am still working the street with Boomer until Boru certifies. It is bitter sweet, to see Boomer retire, he has had a great career. Boomer has made me look good every day. He has had some really awesome apprehensions of some really bad people, located missing alzheimer's and suicidal people in swamps and deep woods. He has made almost 100 apprehensions in his career and found lots of Narcotics. Worked him on the SWAT team for the past 7 years and has kept me safe a whole lot of times. Boomer is an awesome dog and will have a nice retirement relaxing at my house. He has been a super easy dog for me and I love him. I see a lot of the same qualities, traits and temperament in Boru. I have been truly blessed and spoiled with Boomer. He is a tough act to follow.


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## Slamdunc

Cliff,
Thanks! I prefer to work smarter and not harder. I like to use all the tools that I can, toys, praise, affection and even food for certain behaviors. I don't need to tell you that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I'm headed out to do some training and get him started on his hard surface scent discrimination tracking. Tracking is something that I love and there is nothing more rewarding then the person that you are searching for at the end of your track.


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## Steve Strom

Nice, good luck with him Jim.


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## Slamdunc

Steve, thanks!


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## mycobraracr

Nice Jim! I look forward to hearing more about your adventures with him.


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## RZZNSTR

Jim, my Brother ya done good! Congrats and I'd love to hear more about his progress when you have a few minutes! Sounds like a match made in heaven! Good luck and Congrats once again!


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## deacon

Excellent work!! It is nice to see patience. So often including myself at times we as PSD handlers because of time restraints show little time for patience. Watching your vids and reading your writings he should turn out to be an excellent prospect.

Keep us informed of your progress.


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## newlie

He is a beautiful boy, I love the picture of both of you hugging.


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## Jenny720

Yes my favorite picture is with you both snuggling. Like the idea feeding him the car your patience paid off my moms dog doesn't like the car I will pass on this story. Congratulations!


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## Slamdunc

Thanks all!

I did see some frustration today from him, right after the bite work when the decoy ran away and hid. He quickly took it out on the leash. He was intense, way up in drive and definitely did not want to stop the bite session. I then saw some more later when I went to take him away from his toys. He came back at the leash real quickly, but he didn't bite me. That was good, and it was over quickly, also good. More things to work on tomorrow, and next week, and next month. I saw a little of what I was told about. 

I have a lot to think about over a beer tonight. I will be tweaking my plan each day for sure. Tracking is going very well, I may just track all day for the next month. :smirk:


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## eddie1976E

Jim, what were his car issues? I have a dog that whines to no end. It is not a low whine either. High pitch, screaming/screeching. He loves getting in the car. Every time we walk by my car, he stops and looks at the door. As the car moves, he starts up. For hours at a time, this goes on. I have recently started with a bark collar that is helping, but he is getting shocked more than I like.


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## DutchKarin

Chip18 said:


> OMG, that is the first Mal/Dutchie I've ever seen! So that is the don't like multi handlers guy! And of course, video's nice work on the car thing.


Malinois and Dutch coming out of KNPV lines are referred to as Mal X (cross) if they are blonde and Dutch X if brindle. KNPV lines liberally cross these two as the focus is on traits for protection work and not color. Most of the Dutch in the US are out of KNPV lines hence crosses. Genetically only the color varies.

In both Malinois and Dutch Shepherds there are "pure" lines referred to as FCI lines. These are not crossed one to the other or at least not for many generations. But there is a lot of argument whether or not they are different breeds or just different coat colors.


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## LuvShepherds

He's beautiful. I admire your patience with the car and your creative solution. You got a great partner.


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## DutchKarin

To Slam-dunc... how great this guy has you and your experience and style. All the very best to you and Baru. I know as a fellow Dutch sufferer...and I say that with a big smile on my face....their possessiveness and confidence and determination and bratty insistence is a pain in the you know where but also gives them the hutspa (spelling?) that we so come to love.

And trying to figure out what works for them... totally agree that beer will help. ;-)


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## Slamdunc

eddie1976E said:


> Jim, what were his car issues? I have a dog that whines to no end. It is not a low whine either. High pitch, screaming/screeching. He loves getting in the car. Every time we walk by my car, he stops and looks at the door. As the car moves, he starts up. For hours at a time, this goes on. I have recently started with a bark collar that is helping, but he is getting shocked more than I like.


His issue was not wanting to get in he car and fighting like an Alligator doing a death roll. That issue is fixed and now he happily hops right in. Fortunately for me he is quiet in the car, I would not want the whining that you are dealing with. Good luck!


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## Slamdunc

DutchKarin said:


> To Slam-dunc... how great this guy has you and your experience and style. All the very best to you and Baru. I know as a fellow Dutch sufferer...and I say that with a big smile on my face....their possessiveness and confidence and determination and bratty insistence is a pain in the you know where but also gives them the hutspa (spelling?) that we so come to love.
> 
> And trying to figure out what works for them... totally agree that beer will help. ;-)


Do you think I should give him beer? Maybe that would help?:laugh:

He has already tried to get my coffee. 

It is that possessiveness and confidence that will be my next issue to work on. He most certainly has the hutspa


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## Slamdunc

LuvShepherds said:


> He's beautiful. I admire your patience with the car and your creative solution. You got a great partner.



Thanks! We will see, it's only been a week. So far so good.


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## Chip18

DutchKarin said:


> Malinois and Dutch coming out of KNPV lines are referred to as Mal X (cross) if they are blonde and Dutch X if brindle. KNPV lines liberally cross these two as the focus is on traits for protection work and not color. Most of the Dutch in the US are out of KNPV lines hence crosses. Genetically only the color varies.
> 
> In both Malinois and Dutch Shepherds there are "pure" lines referred to as FCI lines. These are not crossed one to the other or at least not for many generations. But there is a lot of argument whether or not they are different breeds or just different coat colors.


Thanks I had no idea what a Dutch Shepard was until Baillif mentioned them a few months ago.

And ...how do the MAl/GSD's fit into things?? I find those kinda cool. What are those like as "pets" using Mal's a reference point??

I do know Bailiff has no and yeah ...not a lab.


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## RZZNSTR

One step at a time! Good luck Jim!


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## BahCan

Congrats Jim....sounds like you will have a great new partner to start the next chapter after Boomer gets his well deserved retirement.


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## Slamdunc

Chip18 said:


> Thanks I had no idea what a Dutch Shepard was until Baillif mentioned them a few months ago.
> 
> And ...how do the MAl/GSD's fit into things?? I find those kinda cool. What are those like as "pets" using Mal's a reference point??
> 
> I do know Bailiff has no and yeah ...not a lab.


Malinois X GSD's are really nice dogs. Just like a GSD or a Malinois they can be great pets. They need exercise and something to do. Some have more drive than others, just like GSD's and Malinois. Generally speaking, they seem to have high drives, less frantic and clearer head. It is a super combination for a Police K-9, SWAT dog or MWD. IMO


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## Slamdunc

Rzznstr and Bahcan,
Thanks! I am taking it one step at a time and breaking everything down into components and the basics for each exercise or behavior. 

Boomer is still going strong and doing great. He could probably work another year. You are right, he has earned his retirement and 10 is a good age to retire. 

Here is a pic of Boomer from this past summer:


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## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> Malinois X GSD's are really nice dogs. Just like a GSD or a Malinois they can be great pets. They need exercise and something to do. Some have more drive than others, just like GSD's and Malinois. Generally speaking, they seem to have high drives, less frantic and clearer head. It is a super combination for a Police K-9, SWAT dog or MWD. IMO


 Thanks for the input ... this time I'll do research first before acquiring a GSD or derivative thereof. The school of hard knocks taught me about WL dogs ... hard way to learn got stitches on that one. 

My (as it turns out, OS) WL GSD turned out to be a bit more than "a big furry dog with a funny face." Boxer, American Band Dawg, guy. Yeah there was a pretty steep learning curve on that one!


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## Slamdunc

What is OS?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Boomer looks great! 

Good luck with your new dog.


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## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> What is OS?


 A closed thread, Inside joke. 

Over Size WL GSD, 116lbs, no idea at the time. Too big to do the work ...but asking people not to pet him, was not really a problem. He never acted like a fool to anyone, just stood behind me (I stepped in front of him if someone seemed interested) and people kept a "respect" distance away and admired him. Kinda like me with the K9's at the substation up the street. 

He's a "Wobble" dog so he garners a lot of attention on walks. He would have made a wonderful therapy dog ...except he doesn't particularly care for people and stuff. So safe in public is good enough.


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## Jax08

Slamdunc said:


> Here is a pic of Boomer from this past summer:


Uncle Boomer!

I think that's the first picture I've seen of him. ****...he's gorgeous! Look at all that red. Does that come down thru Dante or Anita? Seger has a lot of red in him too but nothing as rich as Boomer's coat.


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## Slamdunc

MAW, Thanks!

Chip, interesting, seems like you have him figured out. 

Jax08, you've never seen any Boomer pics?

Let's see if I have any on this computer:


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## RZZNSTR

Boomer looks great! That's one of those pics you blow up and hang it on the I love me wall!


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## Jax08

I have not! Which is odd because I think we're friends on facebook! lol


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## cliffson1

Jim, as you know I prepared a dog for a NJ dept that has many apprehensions and finds and just got a big heroin bust last week in hidden compartment of car. I really had a lot of angst in letting this dog go because he could have been super sport or police dog. But what pushed me over the edge was the handler/trainer he was going to was cut out of the same cloth as you. He loved to train and he especially liked tracking and nose work. You remind me of him so much. Your dog is very fortunate to have you as was Boomer.


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## Jax08

Slamdunc said:


> Jax08, you've never seen any Boomer pics?





Jax08 said:


> I have not! Which is odd because I think we're friends on facebook! lol


We *ARE *FB friends! I"ll look at his pictures there!


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## Slamdunc

Jax08 said:


> We *ARE *FB friends! I"ll look at his pictures there!


You can look under Canine Boomer there are a few pics there. I also posted some above, probably at the same time that you were posting.


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## Slamdunc

cliffson1 said:


> Jim, as you know I prepared a dog for a NJ dept that has many apprehensions and finds and just got a big heroin bust last week in hidden compartment of car. I really had a lot of angst in letting this dog go because he could have been super sport or police dog. But what pushed me over the edge was the handler/trainer he was going to was cut out of the same cloth as you. He loved to train and he especially liked tracking and nose work. You remind me of him so much. Your dog is very fortunate to have you as was Boomer.


Cliff, thanks! That means a lot coming from you!


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## Cassidy's Mom

I think he likes you.  Boru and Boomer are both gorgeous dogs!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Boru sounds like he has found his handler. You guys sound like a true match. Ive got no experince but love k-9s.


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## newlie

Love the Boomer pics, too! My favorite is the one of him lying on top of the police car chewing on his ball. It looks like a Kong ball, one of Newlie's favorites.


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## Slamdunc

I think Boru has found his "soul mate" and we will see what happens in the next couple of weeks as he settles in and finds himself. He is over 3 years old and an adult dog. He acts like a puppy, but when in drive for a toy or a decoy he is extremely intense. By extremely intense, I mean by my definition of extremely intense. He is a seriously intense dog. But, it has only been a week, so I am going to keep working on bonding, friendship and trust for a while. 

Boomer is an awesome dog and the kong is his favorite toy. He is still working and doing a great job. We caught 6 armed robbery suspects in one evening shift call recently and recovered 4 guns. Boomer did an outstanding job! 

Thanks for the nice comments on Boomer and Boru, I appreciate them.


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## Springbrz

Slamdunc are Boomer and Boru getting ballistic vests from the Spikes K-9 fund who got the big donation from Anderson Cooper in honor of fallen officer K-9 Krijger? I hope so. They all need vests.


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## Slamdunc

Yes Boru is getting one, he was fitted yesterday. Actually, all of the dogs in our unit are getting custom made K-9 Storm ballistic vests. Spike's K9 fund is outfitting all the K-9 units in my area, probably 40 or 50 dogs. Anderson Cooper made a huge donation to Spike's K9 for the vests. I saw Anderson Cooper the other night and he is awesome, very pro K-9 and wants to help. 

Boomer has had a vest his entire career, Boru is getting the new vest. 

I will start a thread about Spike's K-9 fund. My buddy, Jimmy is doing great things for working dogs.


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## RZZNSTR

enings arrest count. Well done!hat's quite


Slamdunc said:


> I think Boru has found his "soul mate" and we will see what happens in the next couple of weeks as he settles in and finds himself. He is over 3 years old and an adult dog. He acts like a puppy, but when in drive for a toy or a decoy he is extremely intense. By extremely intense, I mean by my definition of extremely intense. He is a seriously intense dog. But, it has only been a week, so I am going to keep working on bonding, friendship and trust for a while.
> 
> Boomer is an awesome dog and the kong is his favorite toy. He is still working and doing a great job. We caught 6 armed robbery suspects in one evening shift call recently and recovered 4 guns. Boomer did an outstanding job!
> 
> Thanks for the nice comments on Boomer and Boru, I appreciate them.


That's an impressive arrest count! Well done!


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## Jenny720

Thank you Anderson Cooper!!!


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## Springbrz

Slamdunc said:


> Yes Boru is getting one, he was fitted yesterday. Actually, all of the dogs in our unit are getting custom made K-9 Storm ballistic vests. Spike's K9 fund is outfitting all the K-9 units in my area, probably 40 or 50 dogs. Anderson Cooper made a huge donation to Spike's K9 for the vests. I saw Anderson Cooper the other night and he is awesome, very pro K-9 and wants to help.
> 
> Boomer has had a vest his entire career, Boru is getting the new vest.
> 
> I will start a thread about Spike's K-9 fund. My buddy, Jimmy is doing great things for working dogs.



Awesome!!! I'm in Newport News and had heard many of the local departments were getting the vests. Just didn't recall if Chesapeake was included.

Oh! and Thanks to you, Boomer and soon Boru for doing what you do


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## Slamdunc

Jenny720 said:


> Thank you Anderson Cooper!!!


Yes, thank you Anderson Cooper and Jimmy with Spikes K9 fund for all that you do to take care of our K-9's. 

Spikes K9 Fund | Spikes K9 Fund


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## Slamdunc

Springbrz said:


> Awesome!!! I'm in Newport News and had heard many of the local departments were getting the vests. Just didn't recall if Chesapeake was included.
> 
> Oh! and Thanks to you, Boomer and soon Boru for doing what you do


Thank You! I am friends with the Newport News K-9 guys and they have a great unit. We do a fair amount of training together and I saw a couple of them at the vest fitting.


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## llombardo

Any money that is left after the auction of that one police dog will be donated for vests for the dogs. They were at $54000.00 last I checked. How much does one vest cost?


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## Slamdunc

llombardo said:


> Any money that is left after the auction of that one police dog will be donated for vests for the dogs. They were at $54000.00 last I checked. How much does one vest cost?


A regular ballistic vest for a dog costs between $800 and $900, roughly. The vests from K9storm that Spikes K9 fund is providing cost about $2200. These vests are lighter and have a tactical harness built in. The dog can repel, be jumped out of an airplane or be hoisted up onto a ship. The big advantage is the lighter weigh and increased functionality of these K9storm vests. Dogs can work longer and wear them all the time when working.


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## llombardo

Slamdunc said:


> A regular ballistic vest for a dog costs between $800 and $900, roughly. The vests from K9storm that Spikes K9 fund is providing cost about $2200. These vests are lighter and have a tactical harness built in. The dog can repel, be jumped out of an airplane or be hoisted up onto a ship. The big advantage is the lighter weigh and increased functionality of these K9storm vests. Dogs can work longer and wear them all the time when working.


Are they bullet and stab proof? That isn't a bad price at all. Why do you think these aren't supplied on the first day they start to work? I mean if $2200 can potentially save a dog that is most likely worth thousands, why not just do it?

Is there a data base that provides info on how many k-9 officers there are and how many still need vests?


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## Slamdunc

llombardo,
Some units do supply vests to their dogs once they certify and hit the streets. Our unit has had vests for all of our dogs since '09. I have had a vest for my dog since I work him on the SWAT team. These vests like the one I wear at work are not stab proof, they are designed for pistol rounds. 

The vest that SpikesK9fund.org is outfitting dogs with is one that can be worn all day. The vest Boomer has is heavy and is only worn on high risk deployments and SWAT call outs. The K9 storm vests only weigh 4 lbs and can be used as a tactical harness. 

I am involved with Spikes K9 and help with fundraising and assisting with events. It is a cause that I really believe in and I am good friends with Jimmy who started the charity. Jimmy is an amazing guy, a true war hero, a very highly decorated Navy Seal who was a SEAL for 22 years before being injured in Afghanistan. If you have read any books on "special missions" that SEALS have done, Jimmy was there as a team leader. He was a K-9 handler on multiple deployments and his K-9 partners have saved his life on many occasions. I need to start a thread about SpikesK9fund and Jimmy. 

Spikes K9 Fund | Spikes K9 Fund

A truly great man, doing great things for working K-9's. Check out his page for a bunch of cool photos of Boomer, Boru and a whole bunch of other K-9's. His facebook page for spikes:
https://www.facebook.com/Spikes-K9-Fund-726061287469347/

I'm honored to know Jimmy and what he has dedicated his life to is making a huge difference.


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## llombardo

I will check that out. I love the work that these dogs and their handlers do. I only ask about the stab proof because there has been a lot of that lately. Is there any head gear that can be used in situations that are high risk? I believe they should all have one just like I believe every fire truck should carry oxygen masks for pets. It's a good cause.


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## Slamdunc

Our Firefighters have masks for pets and have saved several animals. Many of our medics have trauma training for dogs. We have medics assigned to our SWAT teamd and they go through specialized training for tactical traumatic and casuality care for canines as our handlers do. 

The best gear for a high risk situation is a vest and proper deployment. There is no getting past the fact that it is a high risk job and even with the best planning you can not cover all the contingencies. Sometimes things go sideways.


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## Stonevintage

I was talking with some breeders a year ago in our local area. They had raised money to vest our local K9 dogs. They were refused by the PD. Apparently LE here feels that the vests will physically hamper the dogs in their work???

Can anyone direct me to more information on these vests so I can forward it on to our city council? They may be able to get our PD to take a 2nd look. Thanks!


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## llombardo

Stonevintage said:


> I was talking with some breeders a year ago in our local area. They had raised money to vest our local K9 dogs. They were refused by the PD. Apparently LE here feels that the vests will physically hamper the dogs in their work???
> 
> Can anyone direct me to more information on these vests so I can forward it on to our city council? They may be able to get our PD to take a 2nd look. Thanks!


See below. The spikesk9 fund seems to have light weight vests that won't hinder the job. I guess my question is do they feel the bullet proof vests hinder human officers and refuse them?


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## Slamdunc

Stonevintage and llombardo,
The vest I have currently for Boomer weighs about 9 lbs, it offers the same ballistic protection as my vest. It is actually, due to design probably a little heavier than my vest. It is really not flexible, though custom made and fitted. A 60 lb dog wearing a 9 lb vest for an extended period of time working, especially in the heat can be exhausting. The current vest really does not offer any tactical advantages like the K9storm vest. I can attach a strap to the K9storm vest and literally put the dog over my shoulder or on my back and climb a ladder. It is the same vest that you see the Tier one MWD's wear, except it has ballistic panels built in. It only weighs 4 lbs, and can be used the same as a high dollar tactical harness. 

Part of the advantage a K-9 has is speed, if you slow the dog down you have taken away some of that advantage. Where I work the summers are very hot and the use of my current vest is only for short periods. 

While I have deployed my dog with my current vest on high risk searches, high risk tracks for armed subjects and clearing a building with the SWAT team, etc. It is rare that I use that vest. I will however, use the K9storm vest on a regular basis as it is similar to wearing a high end harness. 

When it comes to tactical K9 applications and real life equipment for dogs, there are few with more real world experience than Jimmy from SpikesK9fund. He had input into the design of the vest. A guy that has had numerous combat deployments as a 22 year SEAL, over 30 jumps from planes with his dog, some into combat. I like what he has done with K9storm and what he is doing to keep K-9's safe. This is a vest that can be used daily.


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## Stonevintage

Thanks for the info Slam. I think I'll send a short e-mail to the PD to ask if they are using anything at any time for their dogs and if not why not.

I took a look at the K9 Storm vest. Are the added features such as camera mount and carry capability the main reason these vests are desired or is it for the lighter weight bullet proof panels to protect the dog? Can that camera mount and handle get the dog hung up in tight spaces or be used as grips for the bad guy? If you were going into a situation with known increased danger - would you still choose to switch over to the 9lb vest instead of the Storm? or is the protection equal? I think safety and lighter weight would be an easier sell than the other features for our small PD.


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## Slamdunc

Well, good questions. The heavier vest does offer some additional ballistic protection, none offer protection against rifle rounds. The biggest added feature is the functionality of the harness system. You could literally skydive your dog in this vest, and Jimmy has done it. The camera mount folds down out of the way when it bumps something. 

A collar can be used to grab a dog, so can skin. I can pick a dog up by the skin on it's back or flanks and toss most dogs. A vest or harness can also be used to grab a dog. 

Honestly, since I will have both, on a barricaded, suicidal or hostage situation doing a covert clear, I may put the heavier vest on. With that said, I have sat on the corner of a house, outside for hours on the reaction team waiting to make entry, while CNT negotiated. The lighter vest would be a whole lot better, when waiting for 6 hours or more to go to work to clear. You just never know how long it will take, could be minutes, could be hours.


----------



## Stonevintage

Thanks for the answers and introducing your new officer to us!

One last question please, if you have time. I know these dogs are running on a reward system and a series of behaviors - but - here it comes...... do they sense bad, guilty, deceiving people? Can they anticipate when someone's about to try something to overpower their partner? Do you see reasoning and problem solving as needed as a daily occurrence with these dogs? Can they perceive ill intentions before they are acted on or is there just so much adrenaline and stuff going on that there is no time for this?


----------



## deacon

Do you have any idea how his scent work is yet?


----------



## Slamdunc

Stonevintage,
They can absolutely sense fear, excitement and adrenalin. They have super senses compared to us. They read body language and demeanor, they recognize aggression and hostility. I can tell when I go to search a house pretty quickly whether some one is inside or has recently been there by the dog's behavior. 

We do hard surface scent discrimination tracking and when tracking a felony suspect, from a pursuit for example, the dog takes odor and you can see that he is on it. The drive to track becomes pretty intense, more so with dogs that have had apprehensions at the end of tracks. 

Deacon, I've only done 4 tracks so far. I'm at a Walmart getting ready to do a hard surface track through the parking lot now. I will try to video it for you. It may be tricky to hold this dog and video, I will see what I can do.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Great thread folks Ive learned alot. Ive always been interested in LEO Dogs and MWD. I guess I thought the vests could help reduce the harmof a knife attack. 

Slamdunc. thank you for your service and for sharing Boomer and Boru with us.


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## Slamdunc

Thank you for the kind comments. 

Here is a short video of Boru's 5th track. I started his tracking a couple of days ago. It is 70 degrees and the wind was blowing pretty good, about 20 mph gusts. This is in s Walmart parking lot to start. Not very long, just training the dog to pick up scent on asphalt. I am training a hard surface scent discrimination tracking / trailing dog. Once I get these tracks to about a 1/2 mile I will move on to the next phase and start trailing. 

http://youtu.be/Bg7kWtTnEy0


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## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> Stonevintage,
> They can absolutely sense fear, excitement and adrenalin. They have super senses compared to us. They read body language and demeanor, they recognize aggression and hostility. I can tell when I go to search a house pretty quickly whether some one is inside or has recently been there by the dog's behavior.
> 
> We do hard surface scent discrimination tracking and when tracking a felony suspect, from a pursuit for example, the dog takes odor and you can see that he is on it. The drive to track becomes pretty intense, more so with dogs that have had apprehensions at the end of tracks.
> 
> Deacon, I've only done 4 tracks so far. I'm at a Walmart getting ready to do a hard surface track through the parking lot now. I will try to video it for you. It may be tricky to hold this dog and video, I will see what I can do.


Do your dogs make a distinction between recognizing aggression and hostility vs recognizing the actions of an enthusiastic but harmless drunk?

Do your dogs recognize aggression and hostility in a passive person?


----------



## deacon

He looks great!!


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## Slamdunc

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do your dogs make a distinction between recognizing aggression and hostility vs recognizing the actions of an enthusiastic but harmless drunk?
> 
> Do your dogs recognize aggression and hostility in a passive person?


No, but they are trained in handler protection and will defend their handler with out any command. If the enthusiastic drunk came running or staggering over to give me a great big hug, the dog would react as trained. 

Our dogs are trained to "find and bite" or to bite on command even a passive suspect in a crowd of screaming, yelling hostile people. You need to realize that we (Police Officers) deal with some crazy and violent people, sociopaths and psychopaths. I have ran into a couple of guys that have stood in front of me and with seemingly no care or concern that I and the dog are there. A calm, almost chilling demeanor with the thousand yard stare and absolutely no fear or concern that the dog is there. Some dogs may not see a threat as the dog may be supremely confident and not concerned. We actively train apprehensions of passive subjects in all kinds of scenarios and environments, using suits, hidden sleeves that the dogs have never seen and muzzles. 

Not engaging a passive person is usually a training issue and a decoy issue.

Deacon, thanks!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> No, but they are trained in handler protection and will defend their handler with out any command. If the enthusiastic drunk came running or staggering over to give me a great big hug, the dog would react as trained.
> 
> Our dogs are trained to "find and bite" or to bite on command even a passive suspect in a crowd of screaming, yelling hostile people. You need to realize that we (Police Officers) deal with some crazy and violent people, sociopaths and psychopaths. I have ran into a couple of guys that have stood in front of me and with seemingly no care or concern that I and the dog are there. A calm, almost chilling demeanor with the thousand yard stare and absolutely no fear or concern that the dog is there. Some dogs may not see a threat as the dog may be supremely confident and not concerned. We actively train apprehensions of passive subjects in all kinds of scenarios and environments, using suits, hidden sleeves that the dogs have never seen and muzzles.
> 
> Not engaging a passive person is usually a training issue and a decoy issue.
> 
> Deacon, thanks!


That's what I thought. I just wanted to clarify that as a rule dogs really can't distinguish a threat in the case of a thug vs a drunk any more than they can distinguish a threat in a passive person. I think too many people put too much faith in a dog's ability to do so.


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## llombardo

What are your thoughts on different breeds being used for this kind of work? I was just reading how quite a few cities/towns are doing this with success? Not only are they using different breeds they are pulling dogs from shelters and saving money on the initial purchase and putting the money into training.


----------



## DutchKarin

I know of departments near me that use labs and a german shorthair pointer for detection. But I have never seen anything but the GSD/mal/dutchie and their crosses for apprehension. I imagine there is history of rotties and dobies but not a recent history.


----------



## Slamdunc

llombardo said:


> What are your thoughts on different breeds being used for this kind of work? I was just reading how quite a few cities/towns are doing this with success? Not only are they using different breeds they are pulling dogs from shelters and saving money on the initial purchase and putting the money into training.


I will use any dog that can do the job. Breed and color are not factors in my selection process. If a shelter dog can do it then great. Any dog with the right temperament, drives, clear headed, strong civil aggression will work. I do like a dog in the 60-80lb range, a mutt that fits the bill I would take. 

*I know of departments near me that use labs and a german shorthair pointer for detection. But I have never seen anything but the GSD/mal/dutchie and their crosses for apprehension. I imagine there is history of rotties and dobies but not a recent history*

DK, yes, we have labs for narcotics detection and a neighboring agency uses the GSP's. I know if one handler that worked rotties for years, that was his thing. GSD's, Mals, DUtchies and the X's are what you see lately.


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## llombardo

I was reading an increase in pit bulls in both police and military. They had some pictures of k9 handlers with these dogs and everyone looked happy and ready to work.


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## Slamdunc

K-9 Boru's 6th hard surface track:

https://youtu.be/UYWn6H7ipEg

Using a modified HITT method with a scent article in the water. Just to acclimate the dog to nose down tracking on asphalt and concrete. It is scent discrimination tracking. Using a busy parking lot to start gets the dog accustomed to cars, trucks and people going by, great distraction training for the real world tracks. After a month, and 1/2 mile long tracks, weaning out the food and water then I will go to grass. Phase 2 involves a track layer / decoy and agitation to put the dog into drive to track. 

Boru is very driven to track already. He has a habit of barking and getting "pushy" when he wants something or goes into "drive.". I've seen this over a toy and in some bitework already. I am working on managing this "pushy" behavior as it can lead to him being a little frantic. Frantic and pushy is not where I want this dog to go. Tomorrow, I will start some formal work on focusing on me, quietly. I think once I get a good level of focus I will be able to "cap" him much easier. I have already started teaching him to contain himself and it is working out pretty well. All tracking and focus drills tomorrow, no toys, just food rewards. He is a little possessive of his toys and can be rather reactive. I want my whole unit around when I break out the toys. It is always fun to watch some one else get bit, in this case it will be fun for them. :smirk:

On a serious note, things are going very well. The car issue is resolved and he stays and waits before being let out of the car. He enthusiastically jumps into the car. We are bonding very nicely and I really, really like this dog. He is not dog aggressive and social at the vet and around groups of people. Every day he gets better. In a week or so I will start more formal obedience and control work.


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## Slamdunc

llombardo said:


> I was reading an increase in pit bulls in both police and military. They had some pictures of k9 handlers with these dogs and everyone looked happy and ready to work.


State Police had a pit bull for explosives detection and he was great. I have not seen any used for patrol work.


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## RZZNSTR

My detection dog was a Golden. The dog could find dope in an empty parking lot!


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## deacon

How is the tracking coming along Slam? Any more videos to post?


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## Slamdunc

http://youtu.be/L6-uMy4DwyQ

Deacon,
The tracking is going well. Actually, all of his training is going well and I have seen some nice progress in the past two weeks. He is doing well in agility, obedience and his bite work is super. 

I have been working on impulse control, focus and capping. It had been working well and the original displacement and redirecting issue when corrected or frustrated is almost gone. I have been doing obedience and working him with toys. I am also able to take his toys with out any aggression or issues. 

I am out of town and Boru is in the Police Kennel. One of my buddies took him out of the kennel for a walk today. Boru nailed him pretty good and stayed on for several minutes. It took two other Officers to assist removing him and putting him back in the kennel. 

I am concerned the work I have done and the progress made over the past 2 weeks may have taken a small set back. 

Unfortunately, my mother is having surgery and I am at the hospital this week. I'm sure Boru is confused as he was settled in with me and now is in a strange kennel. 

When I get back I will go back to working on the same things and get him back to his happy place.


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## deacon

I can see his confidence on the surfaces. He looks awesome! 

I had the same problem with K-9 Grizzly. When I left him at the vets for a couple of days while I went out of town he was really polite to the boarding staff. He let them feed him, take his pan, feed him dog buiscuits and just talk to him. 

One of the attendants came the second day with his leash and collar and when she opened the gate to take him out he tore into her. Later that day he was an angel when getting fed pulling his pan and the staff checking on him and conversing with him. Gotta love it. LOL


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## deacon

How is he coming along Slam? Any more tracking videos?


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## Slamdunc

We are making progress. I haven't done a lot of tracking this past week or two. I was away for a week and I am still covering the street with Boomer. I am going out tracking now and I'm training today. 

He has gotten better with his leash aggression and frustration. He tagged me a couple of times last week, once for being corrected for going after his toy after he was told to "out." He grabbed my hand, but I think he was just going for the leash. I was choked up on the leash and my hand was in the way. It was quick, he let go immediately and we had a quick discussion. Even though, he was going for the leash, it still stings a little when you hand winds up inside the teeth holster. 

We did some unit training and after the bite work, I had the decoy slip the suit top and Boru carried it outside. I was able to out him and walk him back to my car. Then one of the other guys picked up the top to put it away. Right at the moment I had taken the leash off and was holding him by the harness to put him back in my truck. Boru quickly spun and lathered my left arm up with a bunch of saliva. That didn't hurt as he quickly let go and didn't clamp down on my arm. 

I am getting some varied opinions about this, there are some that do not think this is a big deal. Easy to say, when it's not your arm in the sharp vice. I am looking down the road and serious deployments and getting tagged because I am not letting the dog have the person he wants. I am also concerned for other Officers that may wind up in this hair missiles flight path to target. 

I can accept some degree of redirecting to me when amped or frustrated, many super high drive dogs will do this, GSD's like Boomer will as well. I am working on eliminating as much as I can in training, so I don't have as much to be concerned about on the street.


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## Slamdunc

Deacon,
I started working on the out today on the table. I am going to work it like this for a little while, it eliminates the conflict and the ability to redirect back to me. 






The decoy could have had offered a better presentation, but his timing was good. This was his first time decoying this way. 

The whole point of this exercise was to work the out with little agitation, no stress and doing 'substitution" for the slipped sleeve. I also wanted to get Boru comfortable with me next to him and watch his reaction. He had no issue with me approaching and petting him on the bite, he was also pretty clear headed during this session.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Looks good and clear in his bitework. Luckily your guy isnt commiting to the bite when he gets you. 

Redirection is a PITA. If he is predictable then at least you can avoid most of it. 

My Mal can become frustrated when he screws up in training and is prevented from self rewarding through biting. The wires get crossed and the redirection happens. 
I personally find the longer my dog goes without some bitework the more likely a redirection will happen if he gets frustrated. Like an addict he needs his fix...lol. So he gets some real aggressive work just to keep the edge off on the regular. 

I also found that using an end cue like "all done" at the end of a session actually helped him calm down at the end and be less frustrated. Even though the decoy is still there he can walk off without being a jackass because he knows there is no possibility of more biting.

Cool dog, good luck with him.


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## Slamdunc

The end cue is a good idea. I let him chill out for a while before even trying to take him back to the car. This dog sees a building and wants to search it. If sees or hears some one inside he goes deaf and wants in. He is clear in the bite work, it's the out off a suit that can be an issue. It can be touch and go removing him from a decoy, if you tell him to heel and correct he will redirect. It is getting better. I have found that letting him get gassed really helps, along with a few minutes to clear his head. He was gassed in that video. We had done about two sets before that video. 


Right now, there is no walking away with a decoy in sight. I know he will not listen and I don't want to set him up to disobey and be forced to really correct him. I'm trying to work up to that. I just don't want to put him in a position where I have to hammer him, cause conflict and fight with him. That day may come, but I am looking for ways to avoid it in training. 

I've been avoiding doing a lot of bite work, only once a week or so. I'm not worried about this dog biting, he is civil and will absolutely bite with out equipment I also do not need to put a lot of work into his grip. It's all about control and keeping him clear headed, that is the project right now. 

Thanks! He is a nice dog, I really like him.


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## Steve Strom

He looks good Jim. I'll keep an eye out for more videos. Its gonna be fun to see him off the table on a decoy.


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## Slamdunc

Thanks, Steve. I need to get someone else to hold the camera. I do want to do some down fields for sure, I will get some video on Wednesday. I started the beginnings of a systematic, methodical building search last Wednesday. I want the dog to go into a building and search every room with out skipping rooms, at least in training. I have started our long line clearing which is needed for some of our applications, like covert clears. But, this dog goes in on a seek and destroy mission and goes to his eyes first over his nose. It is a common phenomena with dogs, and you need to get the dog to switch to his nose and rely on that immediately upon entering a building. I've only done a few building searches, so it will come in time. I'm sure in the next couple of weeks it will all click.


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## deacon

Looks good! As long as you correct anytime he tries it you should be fine. 

What I do after "every" bite session is escort the quarry off the field, let the dog see him depart out of view or enter the vehicle like a prisoner, close the door turn him around and run off shouting praise, then when far enough away stop and verbally, physically praise him.


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## Slamdunc

Deacon,
It's a little too soon to start an escort. We do have the decoy run deeper into the building, so the dog always thinks there is a suspect in the building. I will see how it goes tomorrow when we do some more suit work.


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## RZZNSTR

He is coming along very nicely Jim! Good work!


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## Slamdunc

RZZNSTR,
Thanks!


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## Slamdunc

A quick track from today. I haven't been tracking as much as I need to. Getting back to it with a track in the street in my neighborhood.


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## deacon

You can't ask for anything more precise than that!


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## Slamdunc

Boru went into the bottle room muzzled. He was trying to catch every flying bottle that he could. He's a special kind of dog. :wild:

Enough drive for 4 dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Wow. That should be his reward for something!


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## SuperG

Boru would be a hit at a Chuckie Cheesie or whatever the places are with the ball pools.

SuperG


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## Slamdunc

Yes, it's his reward for being so "special." 

SuperG, Chuckie E Cheese is the last place I want to bring this dog.  Unless it is closed and no one else is in the building.


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## SuperG

Slamdunc said:


> Yes, it's his reward for being so "special."
> 
> SuperG, Chuckie E Cheese is the last place I want to bring this dog.  Unless it is closed and no one else is in the building.


Ahhhhh..come on...these kids need to toughen up a bit this day and age 

SuperG


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## Jenny720

Cool! Boru has his own bottle pit!


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## Jax08

Slamdunc said:


> Boru went into the bottle room muzzled. He was trying to catch every flying bottle that he could. He's a special kind of dog. :wild:
> 
> Enough drive for 4 dogs.


It's like Dog Heaven! lol


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## Slamdunc

That bottle room is awesome. We bury people in there and then send the dogs to find them and muzzle fight. 

Jax, I have video of Francesca in there as a pup. Great environmental training.


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## SuperG

Jim,

Gotta ask ya a question and it is germane to the thread and your replies....that's what I'm telling myself anyway. There is a broad spectrum of dog owners in this forum....some wish their dog had more drive...and even more in this forum are looking for answers to modify their dog's drives because it's a problem of sorts at times. Since you have a unique perspective, a great companion at home as well as a working partner.....more drive all time or less? Thanks.

SuperG


----------



## Jax08

Slamdunc said:


> That bottle room is awesome. We bury people in there and then send the dogs to find them and muzzle fight.
> 
> Jax, I have video of Francesca in there as a pup. Great environmental training.


Pretty sure I saw that. If I remember right, she thought it was Dog Heaven too.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Slamdunc said:


> www.youtube.com/watch?v=Het1Cj_UD10


Halo wants. :wub:


----------



## Slamdunc

SuperG said:


> Jim,
> 
> Gotta ask ya a question and it is germane to the thread and your replies....that's what I'm telling myself anyway. There is a broad spectrum of dog owners in this forum....some wish their dog had more drive...and even more in this forum are looking for answers to modify their dog's drives because it's a problem of sorts at times. Since you have a unique perspective, a great companion at home as well as a working partner.....more drive all time or less? Thanks.
> 
> SuperG


Well, I spend a lot of time building drive in some dogs. For me, the dogs I own genetically have high drives, and I make it higher. I also like a dog that turns off. Depending on the dog some settle with a toy, Boru relaxes with a toy. Boomer can not have a toy in the house or he is bouncing off the walls. If you take away his toy he settles very nicely. 

I like high drive dogs, they are fun for me to work and I don't have any issues managing them and living with them.


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## SuperG

Slamdunc said:


> Well, I spend a lot of time building drive in some dogs. For me, the dogs I own genetically have high drives, and I make it higher. I also like a dog that turns off. Depending on the dog some settle with a toy, Boru relaxes with a toy. Boomer can not have a toy in the house or he is bouncing off the walls. If you take away his toy he settles very nicely.
> 
> I like high drive dogs, they are fun for me to work and I don't have any issues managing them and living with them.



Appreciate the answer.


SuperG


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## RZZNSTR

Great video Jim! Never seen a bottle room. That's a very cool idea!


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## Slamdunc

It is just another environmental stressor. The bottles are loud, we have slick plastic boards on the tile floor which are very slippery. Then when you add bottles that are a foot to two deep the dogs have no real footing. we do bite work and muzzle work in that room. We bury decoys under that bottles for passive, no equipment finds. 

Here is the newest dog and handler to our K-9 unit. I trained this team last summer. This dog is an awesome tracking dog and had two tracks to apprehensions during our K-9 school. Some handlers worry if their new dog will engage the first time on the street. This dog had his first apprehension and down field his second day on the street. Those two are an excellent team. The dog is a GSD X Malinois mix. You can see the methodical style of building search that I taught this dog and his ability to engage a passive suspect. The decoy was told to not move until the dog engaged really hard. The dog will check every room and closed door before proceeding further down the hallway. This video was made after only 2 months of training.


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## deacon

Nice! I have preached using muzzle for tracking, buildings, area searching for decades to ensure they will engage without the smell or sight of the equipment as well as teaching to engage in a variety of positions upon locating. I have even written an article on it but few still train this way!


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## DutchKarin

Seeing you are in Virginia, hoping for the very best for the trooper that was shot today. Kind thoughts to you and your comrades.


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## Jenny720

Great video. Someone had to pull the short straw to hide under those bottles I suppose. 

Our thoughts and prayers are with the officers and troopers' family. The news mentioned the trooper who was killed was the same trooper who save a little dog in the interstate a few months back. I remember this story.


----------



## Slamdunc

Deacon,
We do a lot of muzzle work. It is really one of the few ways that you can really "proof" a dog. We also do hidden sleeve work with special fabrics and fire hose. 

DK and Jenny,
Thanks, for the condolences and kind words. He was one of the Troopers that was assigned to our city for a while. I've backed him up on traffic stops on the highway. It is a horrible tragedy, he had two children. 

Our world is changing and it is very alarming the number of LEOS killed in the line of duty this year. Officer deaths by gunfire are way up, last I saw it was around 125% over this time last year, and we are only in March.


----------



## RZZNSTR

Yes, there have been a lot of Coppers killed this year. K9s too. Las Vegas just lost a K9 to gunfire on 03/31/2016. 
Police K-9 Shot and Killed in the Line of Duty in Las Vegas: Authorities | KTLA


----------



## Mudypoz

This is probably a dumb newbie question, but what's the purpose of training with a muzzle on? I've seen many K9's training with a muzzle and I always wondered...

I'm very sorry for the loss of your colleague. So senseless :'(


----------



## yuriy

Mudypoz said:


> This is probably a dumb newbie question, but what's the purpose of training with a muzzle on? I've seen many K9's training with a muzzle and I always wondered...


I'd guess protection of whoever is playing the bad guy.


----------



## Mudypoz

yuriy said:


> I'd guess protection of whoever is playing the bad guy.


Yes I can understand that for this occasion, but I often see them use it even when the helper is wearing a sleeve?


----------



## Slamdunc

Mudypoz said:


> Yes I can understand that for this occasion, but I often see them use it even when the helper is wearing a sleeve?


We don't use muzzles with any sleeve work. As a matter of fact, I rarely use sleeves when training Police K-9's. We typically use full body suits for bite work, concealed sleeves and muzzles. 

The muzzle is used to protect the decoy. It allows us to work the dog in more realistic scenarios without the bite equipment present. Sleeves and bite suits smeel very familiar to the dog and the dog instantly knows it is a training scenario. Working a dog with a muzzle teaches the dog to fight harder, use it's body more effectively in a fight and increases intensity, all the while keeping the decoy safe. 

It is another step in the process of preparing a dog for real encounters on the street.


----------



## Heartandsoul

Slamdunc, I was walking my boy the other day and as we were passing the large church parking lot there was an officer with his dog tracking on the hard surface. 

Had I not been following this thread, I would have assumed they were tracking a bad guy. But it was obviously a hard surface training exercise. Really interesting to watch in person and the dog was as precise as your videos.

This thread and the conversations are really insightful as you offer explanation for both how and why you are bringing him along.

My condolences also. I have a lot of respect for these men, women And their K9 partners.


----------



## Slamdunc

Heartandsoul,
Thanks, I appreciate it.


----------



## Steve Strom

Man, in the bottles with a muzzle. That poor dog, Lol. Hey Jim, how do you phase out the water on the hard surface? Is it just gone one day? Or is there some incremental steps to it?


----------



## Slamdunc

Steve Strom said:


> Man, in the bottles with a muzzle. That poor dog, Lol. Hey Jim, how do you phase out the water on the hard surface? Is it just gone one day? Or is there some incremental steps to it?


Steve,
As the dog progresses the spray is spread out to more of a mist and the track is aged longer until the majority of the water has evaporated. Once the dog is working tracks that are about 700 - 800 yards long, through streets and parking lots we move on to the next step. 

The progression involves a decoy who is the track layer. The decoy agitates the dog and puts the dog into drive, a worn t shirt with the track layers odor is used to agitate. The dog gets to bite the t shirt and the decoy takes off, this incorporates the "Jacobson organ or Vomeronasal gland". The dog will actually store the track layers odor in the olfactory section of it's brain, and this is the scent specific or scent discrimination that we teach. The dog, which is now in drive and agitated is put back into the car for a few minutes. Then taken out, brought to the starting point and told to track. The dog has the specific scent of the track layer from the T shirt and will scent discriminate track that person. For a green handler, the majority of these tracks are run blind. This forces the handler to read the dog and recognize the loss of scent indications, loss of track indications and proximity alerts. At this point we add grass and other surfaces in. It is interesting to watch the dog hit odor on grass, because up till this point it has only worked on concrete and asphalt. As you know the grass holds the odor far better, and the dog reacts to this immediately. 

The dog transitions real quickly at this point from the nose down style it learned during the introduction to the hard surface tracking to a faster, trailing style of tracking. 

We then start doing segmented tracks with several components. A track may have four components, each a 1/2 mile or more with a find, agitation and another track. That is one way to quickly push dogs into long tracks. Our training tracks are often a mile or more, sometimes 2.


----------



## Steve Strom

Thanks for the detail Jim. I'm always interested in the step by step of the training. Is proximity meaning to the decoy? I imagine Boru will be coming out of his skin within 50 yards or so?


----------



## Slamdunc

Steve,
Yes, when we are tracking a suspect, often times you wind up very close before you even realize it. This is even more dangerous at night, with a strong wind that will carry the suspect's odor and ebb and pool around bushes and buildings. The dog may correctly track the odor but go past the bad guy and have to work the "scent cone" back to the source. I've had this happen tracking felony suspects that have backtracked and concealed themselves under a shed or trash. If your not paying attention to the surroundings and the dog's behavior you could wind up in a very bad spot. 

The "proximity alert" is the behavioral changes and indications the dog gives off that you are close to the bad guy. Most dogs will expand their chest, their head comes, they become increasingly agitated and will pull more intensely. When the head comes up they are sampling the air more, it almost looks like they are looking up, but they are reading the odor and getting close to the source. When I see this behavior, I know I am close to the bad guy. I am mindful of wind speed and direction and things that can pool or hold odor. When I start getting these indications, it is time to slow down and start looking for cover. If I am tracking a missing person, then I reel the dog in and proceed slowly so they don't get bit. Depending on the situation on a felony track, if prudent I begin giving warnings to allow the suspect to give up. If not tactically safe, I will move the perimeter units and tighten the perimeter. 

Those proximity alerts are really key to watch for and having the ability to read the dog is super important. 

Yea, Boru is giving those alerts walking down the street. The distance on the indications varies depending on wind, temperature and environment. I've gotten them as far as 50 yds away and as close 5 - 10 yards. Further is generally better.


----------



## Mudypoz

Slamdunc said:


> We don't use muzzles with any sleeve work. As a matter of fact, I rarely use sleeves when training Police K-9's. We typically use full body suits for bite work, concealed sleeves and muzzles.
> 
> The muzzle is used to protect the decoy. It allows us to work the dog in more realistic scenarios without the bite equipment present. Sleeves and bite suits smeel very familiar to the dog and the dog instantly knows it is a training scenario. Working a dog with a muzzle teaches the dog to fight harder, use it's body more effectively in a fight and increases intensity, all the while keeping the decoy safe.
> 
> It is another step in the process of preparing a dog for real encounters on the street.


That definitely makes sense. Makes me wonder what the guys I saw were doing, lol


----------



## Slamdunc

Some pictures of Boru from Wednesday's training. Boru is sporting his new Ballistic vest provided by Jimmy Hatch and SpikesK9fund.org. 

Spikes K9 has outfitted all of our K-9's with new ballistic vests, this was part of the K9 Krieger vest campaign, that was largely sponsored by Anderson Cooper. Krieger was an outstanding K-9 handled by a buddy of mine that was killed during a SWAT operation with a barricaded armed suspect earlier this year. Krieger absolutely saved the lives of several guys on the SWAT team. His Handler has a new K-9 named AC, after Anderson Cooper. He came out and trained with me this week for a couple days, we worked on some advanced civil work and scenario based training.


----------



## Slamdunc

Some pictures of Boru doing the obstacle course that was rebuilt by volunteers of SpikesK9fund.org.


----------



## RZZNSTR

Very cool Jim!


----------



## Slamdunc

Thanks!


----------



## MyHans-someBoy

Nice pictures!

He just...radiates intensity!! 

You gotta love that 4th picture where he's turning his head as he gets to the top. Yikes!


----------



## Julian G

He looks like a good boy.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

That's great! Thanks for the update and pictures!


----------



## Slamdunc

Thanks! 

Intense may be an understatement, when that dog is on, people seem to be very afraid. People cross the street when they see him out on a walk and all he is doing is walking next to me. I had him out last night for a track after a felony hit and run. The typically very vocal anti police household that we tracked up to was unusually quiet. Several folks outside and not one word when they saw Boru coming up to their porch. No one did as much as even give me the one finger wave hello. The other officers all commented on how polite the well known residents had suddenly become. 

He is a good boy.


----------



## Deb

He is one gorgeous dog!


----------



## Slamdunc

Thank you. I think he is a good looking dog as well. He is a specimen, lean all muscle and ready to go.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Slamdunc said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Intense may be an understatement, when that dog is on, people seem to be very afraid. People cross the street when they see him out on a walk and all he is doing is walking next to me. I had him out last night for a track after a felony hit and run. The typically very vocal anti police household that we tracked up to was unusually quiet. Several folks outside and not one word when they saw Boru coming up to their porch. No one did as much as even give me the one finger wave hello. The other officers all commented on how polite the well known residents had suddenly become.
> 
> He is a good boy.


They should be afraid lol. Keep the pics and updates coming, love hearing about him.

Thanks as always for all you are doing out there, you and Boru and Boomer working hard to keep everybody safe.


----------



## DutchKarin

Gorgeous animal. Be safe out there.


----------



## dogma13

Love those pics!The fourth one is my favorite too!Thank you so much for all you do


----------



## Slamdunc

DutchKarin said:


> Gorgeous animal. Be safe out there.


Thank you! So in your expert opinion, Mali X or DS X? :wink2:


----------



## Slamdunc

Dogma, thank you.


----------



## DutchKarin

Slamdunc said:


> Thank you! So in your expert opinion, Mali X or DS X? :wink2:


Just an X. hahah.... last time I saw more brindle... is it throughout or is it more on the legs and more solid on the body? He came from the Netherlands originally right?

Oh too... I'm no expert... just have read a lot about the genetics. Americans are so goofy. I cringe when I see a malinois and people swear it is a dutch shepherd, but a rare golden dutch shepherd! Both parents were brindle and that is the proof. And boy do they get defensive.

Anyway enjoy Boru X. X-man Boru... you can work it in!


----------



## Slamdunc

DutchKarin said:


> Just an X. hahah.... last time I saw more brindle... is it throughout or is it more on the legs and more solid on the body? He came from the Netherlands originally right?
> 
> Oh too... I'm no expert... just have read a lot about the genetics. Americans are so goofy. I cringe when I see a malinois and people swear it is a dutch shepherd, but a rare golden dutch shepherd! Both parents were brindle and that is the proof. And boy do they get defensive.
> 
> Anyway enjoy Boru X. X-man Boru... you can work it in!


He is brindle through out, legs and body. Yes, he came from the Netherlands. I am enjoying him, he is a fun dog to work.


----------



## cliffson1

Good looking dog, Jim!


----------



## Slamdunc

Thanks, Cliff. 

He is doing super well at the moment, so well that I have decided to start working him on the SWAT team. He will be an awesome SWAT dog. Boomer left an open spot on the team and a couple of handlers want it, but I think Boru might be the best fit.


----------



## Slamdunc

A little Boru update. A video of him doing a handler protection scenario being deployed out of the Patrol car. The scenario tests the dog's reaction to the handler on the bottom. Many dogs will hit the handler on the bottom and this needs to be trained. If you think your dog won't target you on the bottom, get a muzzle and try it. At least 50% of dogs nail their handler the first few times. 

Boru did very well. That was an awesome hit on the decoy. He has to have some really redeeming qualities, to make up for him being a handful. 

He is wearing the vest so generously donated to us by SpikesK9fund.org. It is a lightweight, functional and tactical ballistic vest.


----------



## DutchKarin

What great heart on that dog! Really interesting about 50% of dogs will hit their handlers Why is that? Is that just too stimulating to them that they loose their minds a bit? Our rescued GSD goes to pieces if we are on the floor. My Dutchie does not and since he is always searching for people that might be down that doesn't seem to affect him. 

Thanks for sharing the video.


----------



## BigHemi45

Slamdunc said:


> A little Boru update. A video of him doing a handler protection scenario being deployed out of the Patrol car. The scenario tests the dog's reaction to the handler on the bottom. Many dogs will hit the handler on the bottom and this needs to be trained. If you think your dog won't target you on the bottom, get a muzzle and try it. At least 50% of dogs nail their handler the first few times.
> 
> Boru did very well. That was an awesome hit on the decoy. He has to have some really redeeming qualities, to make up for him being a handful.
> 
> He is wearing the vest so generously donated to us by SpikesK9fund.org. It is a lightweight, functional and tactical ballistic vest.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI9oA3dZmT0


Holy cow he hit him like a Mack truck. That was awesome!


----------



## Slamdunc

DutchKarin said:


> What great heart on that dog! Really interesting about 50% of dogs will hit their handlers Why is that? Is that just too stimulating to them that they loose their minds a bit? Our rescued GSD goes to pieces if we are on the floor. My Dutchie does not and since he is always searching for people that might be down that doesn't seem to affect him.
> 
> Thanks for sharing the video.


I'm not sure of the exact reason that many dogs will target the person on the bottom, even the handler. I was told about this years ago and said "Boomer will never target me!" Well, Boomer is equally a beast in the muzzle and nailed me for about 90 seconds. It is not about the relationship or anything like that. I think that most of our training involves taking the suspect / decoy to the ground and that is the picture the dog always sees. They normally go for the person on the bottom. I can tell you this is something that we train. We condition the dogs that hit the handler to discriminate and target the suspect. It can be an eye opening scenario, especially when your dog wears you out for about a minute. :surprise:


----------



## Deb

I bet that is a shock to many handlers. I wouldn't have expected they'd hit their handlers. Boru is one fast dog!


----------



## RZZNSTR

Well done Jim! He looks really good!


----------



## Slamdunc

Thanks!


----------



## cloudpump

What muzzle is he wearing?


----------



## Slamdunc

cloudpump said:


> What muzzle is he wearing?



A Ray Allen:

Ray Allen Gray Leather Agitation Muzzle | Agitation Muzzle | Training Muzzle | Ray Allen Manufacturing

size 9


----------



## newlie

Always love your videos, they are great to watch, and very interesting!


----------



## melissajancie

thanks for putting the link up for the vests. It was hoping to find a link to do a paypal location and it was there! Now I just have to figure out how to share that link on my FB page.


I am loving all of the information and the training videos, pictures, etc. that you are sharing with us. I hope that you will continue to share your awesome accomplishments on a regular basis. Thank you and your partners for doing such a great job day in and day out. You have many more fans than you realize.


----------



## Jenny720

Cool video! Great job!!!!


----------



## Slamdunc

Newly, Melissa and Jenny, thanks. I appreciate it. 

Here is a link to the Spikes K9 Fund face book page:

https://www.facebook.com/spikesk9fund/

Right under the cover photo is a "share" button. I would really appreciate the "share." We are very involved with this organization and Jimmy is doing great things to help working dogs and keep them safe. The donation is awesome!


----------



## Jenny720

Slamdunc said:


> Newly, Melissa and Jenny, thanks. I appreciate it.
> 
> Here is a link to the Spikes K9 Fund face book page:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/spikesk9fund/
> 
> Right under the cover photo is a "share" button. I would really appreciate the "share." We are very involved with this organization and Jimmy is doing great things to help working dogs and keep them safe. The donation is awesome!


Is a great idea. I shared on my Pinterest page and will take a photo and will share on my Instagram page when it is working right won't let me load anything. I don't have my own Facebook page but will pass on to others that do. Thanks!


----------



## newlie

Slamdunc said:


> Newly, Melissa and Jenny, thanks. I appreciate it.
> 
> Here is a link to the Spikes K9 Fund face book page:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/spikesk9fund/
> 
> Right under the cover photo is a "share" button. I would really appreciate the "share." We are very involved with this organization and Jimmy is doing great things to help working dogs and keep them safe. The donation is awesome!


Done! I have asked all my family and friends to share as well.


----------



## Hineni7

Loved the video.. Boru is awesome.. I noticed he went for some, uh, sensitive spots when he realized the muzzle was restricting his fun in the bite... Hope the decoy was wearing a cup... I feel for any bad guy who goes for you!


----------



## Julian G

@Slamdunc so in real life situations, how can you be sure the dog will know the difference between you being on the bottom or the top? And why do they sometimes nail the handler? Bad vision?


----------



## Slamdunc

Jenny and Newlie, thank you very much for the shares!

Anderson Cooper is another big supporter of Spikes K9 fund and made a huge donation to kick off the K9 Krieger ballistic vest campaign. The more shares and exposure that Jimmy and Spikes K9 gets is great. Jimmy is a true war here and there are several books and movies made about him and his guys. He is a great guy doing great things for working dogs. I believe he has equipped about 200 K-9s this past year with new vests.


----------



## Slamdunc

Hineni7 said:


> Loved the video.. Boru is awesome.. I noticed he went for some, uh, sensitive spots when he realized the muzzle was restricting his fun in the bite... Hope the decoy was wearing a cup... I feel for any bad guy who goes for you!


I am going to feel a little bad for any suspect that doesn't heed my warnings. I think with Boru I may give extra warnings. 

Thanks! We generally don't wear a cup, but some guys do wear a vest. I know someone that wound up with a ruptured spleen from muzzle fighting. The muzzles are hard and it's like getting punched or hit with a bat. That guy had a long drive home and told me he was popping advil the whole next day. :wink2:


----------



## Slamdunc

Julian G said:


> @Slamdunc so in real life situations, how can you be sure the dog will know the difference between you being on the bottom or the top? And why do they sometimes nail the handler? Bad vision?


That is exactly the reason we were training this scenario, so the dog targets correctly in real life situations. "Bad vision?" No, the dogs have exceptional vision. Our training is designed to incorporate real life situations and get as close as possible to them safely.


----------



## Julian G

Slamdunc said:


> That is exactly the reason we were training this scenario, so the dog targets correctly in real life situations. "Bad vision?" No, the dogs have exceptional vision. Our training is designed to incorporate real life situations and get as close as possible to them safely.


I'm asking because I would like to think that our dogs know not to bite us. I am a bit disapointed that so many dogs need to be trained to know not to attack the handler in this situation.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

To my understanding, it has to do with a pack situation and that dogs like to be on the winning side. 

It happens frequently in doggie day cares, and on occasion in dog parks, where two dogs get into a fight and all the dogs jump on the dog that is down, regardless of prior friendly terms and allegiances.

I have spoke to a few breeders and trainers about this, and FWIW, I was told that it is less common in dogs when somebody raised it as a puppy and more common in dogs that are purchased when they are older, such as for police K9 work.

Interestingly enough, the women breeders said it was less common with women owners than with men owners.

I don't know if any of this is fact but the people that shared this knowledge were reputable people in their breeding and work programs.


----------



## Slamdunc

Julian G said:


> I'm asking because I would like to think that our dogs know not to bite us. I am a bit disapointed that so many dogs need to be trained to know not to attack the handler in this situation.


That is why we train this. It is eye opening and a handler needs to know before it happens on the street. It is not so much disappointing as it is reality. Many dogs go for the person on the bottom. Most people will never need to worry about this or train for it. However, us a K-9 handlers (or _bone headed morons_) need to train for very violent encounters and we rely on our dogs to be there for for us. It would be really disappointing to be in a serious encounter and not know how your dog will respond. That is why we train and work through it.


----------



## Slamdunc

MAW, 

Very good post. 

IME, it has to do with training and the picture the dog normally sees. It could be related to pack structure and ganging up on the weaker individual. 

I do not agree that it is less common with dogs raised as pups. I raised Boomer from a 7 week old pup, we were bonded, have a great relationship, no handler aggression and he wore me out the first time we did this. Boru came to me as a 3 1/2 year old dog, had several handlers and was perfect the first time. It really depends on the dog.


----------



## Julian G

Slamdunc said:


> That is why we train this. It is eye opening and a handler needs to know before it happens on the street. It is not so much disappointing as it is reality. Many dogs go for the person on the bottom. Most people will never need to worry about this or train for it. However, us a K-9 handlers (or bone head morons) need to train for very violent encounters and we rely on our dogs to be there for for us. It would be really disappointing to be in a serious encounter and not know how your dog will respond. That is why we train and work through it.


Can you give me a run down of what you do to train this? I see you put yourself in the situation of being on the bottom, if the dog goes for you instead of the attacker how do you correct or fix this?
Thanks in advance


----------



## Julian G

MineAreWorkingline said:


> To my understanding, it has to do with a pack situation and that dogs like to be on the winning side.
> 
> It happens frequently in doggie day cares, and on occasion in dog parks, where two dogs get into a fight and all the dogs jump on the dog that is down, regardless of prior friendly terms and allegiances.
> 
> I have spoke to a few breeders and trainers about this, and FWIW, I was told that it is less common in dogs when somebody raised it as a puppy and more common in dogs that are purchased when they are older, such as for police K9 work.
> 
> Interestingly enough, the women breeders said it was less common with women owners than with men owners.
> 
> I don't know if any of this is fact but the people that shared this knowledge were reputable people in their breeding and work programs.


This had been said by a dog trainer, not a very big name in the dog world but it makes perfect sense to me. He said that the handler should NEVER be the one holding the prey item or be the prey by wearing a bite sleeve or something of the sort. He teaches his pups from a very young age that when the handler gives the bite or attack command, the dog must always look for "something or someone else" to bite. So basically you have the pup or dog on the leash and have someone else be or hold the prey.
Makes perfect sense to me, don't put the thought of biting the handler into the dogs mind at all and it should lessen the chance of the handler ever getting bitten.


----------



## Slamdunc

Julian G said:


> Can you give me a run down of what you do to train this? I see you put yourself in the situation of being on the bottom, if the dog goes for you instead of the attacker how do you correct or fix this?
> Thanks in advance


Like any other dog training concept, we break it down into fundamental components and work on each component. If there is an issue we take a step back and work through it. It depends on the dog, some get it after three or four reps. If not it t is rather detailed. We go through various reps with the handler and decoy in various positions. If that is not working we may add a decoy and bite suit and work through it. It is a little involved to explain.


----------



## Slamdunc

Julian G said:


> This had been said by a dog trainer, not a very big name in the dog world but it makes perfect sense to me. He said that the handler should NEVER be the one holding the prey item or be the prey by wearing a bite sleeve or something of the sort. He teaches his pups from a very young age that when the handler gives the bite or attack command, the dog must always look for "something or someone else" to bite. So basically you have the pup or dog on the leash and have someone else be or hold the prey.
> Makes perfect sense to me, don't put the thought of biting the handler into the dogs mind at all and it should lessen the chance of the handler ever getting bitten.


This is way more advanced and we are not working in prey at this point in training. I have a different take on working dogs in prey. We are not working dogs in prey in this training, it is civil and very serious.


With an experienced handler/decoy and a dog for sport, you can work your own dog in prey. I've worked my own dogs in prey before. You must understand how to do it and it is not for all dogs.


----------



## Julian G

Slamdunc said:


> Like any other dog training concept, we break it down into fundamental components and work on each component. If there is an issue we take a step back and work through it. It depends on the dog, some get it after three or four reps. If not it t is rather detailed. We go through various reps with the handler and decoy in various positions. If that is not working we may add a decoy and bite suit and work through it. It is a little involved to explain.


What do you think about the theory to never be or never hold the prey item as a handler? Even with young pups. The thought being that the pup learns that there is "something else" he has to bite. I think it's a very good concept that many don't even realize.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Julian G said:


> This had been said by a dog trainer, not a very big name in the dog world but it makes perfect sense to me. He said that the handler should NEVER be the one holding the prey item or be the prey by wearing a bite sleeve or something of the sort. He teaches his pups from a very young age that when the handler gives the bite or attack command, the dog must always look for "something or someone else" to bite. So basically you have the pup or dog on the leash and have someone else be or hold the prey.
> Makes perfect sense to me, don't put the thought of biting the handler into the dogs mind at all and it should lessen the chance of the handler ever getting bitten.


Some agree with that, yet I know others who do the opposite. 

Personally, I never let my dogs bite me even in play or as young puppies. I am not their chew toy.


----------



## Slamdunc

Julian G said:


> What do you think about the theory to never be or never hold the prey item as a handler? Even with young pups. The thought being that the pup learns that there is "something else" he has to bite. I think it's a very good concept that many don't even realize.


We are going really off topic here. Perhaps, you should start a thread about this. I completely disagree with never holding the prey object as a handler. Most folks do it more than you would realize. My pups, and I raise most of my dogs from pups are all started in prey by me. I have never had an issue with this. My dogs learn that it is ok to bite the "prey object" and not me. I've done all the bite work on some of my dogs up to an SchH / IPO 1 by myself. One would need to understand how to work or decoy for dogs in prey and defense. 

I do agree that inexperienced handlers and decoys should not do this as they can do more harm than good. If you do not understand the concepts and nuances of decoying and raising a working pup then you are better off not trying this at home.

Like MAW, I also do not let my dogs bite me or put teeth on me. I also never rough house with my dogs.


----------



## melissajancie

Slamdunc said:


> Newly, Melissa and Jenny, thanks. I appreciate it.
> 
> Here is a link to the Spikes K9 Fund face book page:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/spikesk9fund/
> 
> Right under the cover photo is a "share" button. I would really appreciate the "share." We are very involved with this organization and Jimmy is doing great things to help working dogs and keep them safe. The donation is awesome!


Thanks so much for the FB link. I shared on my page. And you are welcome :laugh2:


----------



## Julian G

Slamdunc said:


> We are going really off topic here. Perhaps, you should start a thread about this. I completely disagree with never holding the prey object as a handler. Most folks do it more than you would realize. My pups, and I raise most of my dogs from pups are all started in prey by me. I have never had an issue with this. My dogs learn that it is ok to bite the "prey object" and not me. I've done all the bite work on some of my dogs up to an SchH / IPO 1 by myself. One would need to understand how to work or decoy for dogs in prey and defense.
> 
> I do agree that inexperienced handlers and decoys should not do this as they can do more harm than good. If you do not understand the concepts and nuances of decoying and raising a working pup then you are better off not trying this at home.
> 
> Like MAW, I also do not let my dogs bite me or put teeth on me. I also never rough house with my dogs.


Hmm, see I have always let my dogs mouth me gently. It's actually a way dogs and wolves show affection. I also think it's a way to teach bite inhibition, but you're the expert so maybe in the future I won't let them. May be a newb question but how do you personally correct puppy biting? I give a firm no! and give them a toy to chew on.


----------



## deacon

I totally agree with Slam, it is ok as I have seen many trainers begin prey work with their own dogs on multiple occasions. However you must know what you are doing.


----------



## deacon

made any good cases or had any good captures with K-9 Boru yet Slam?


----------



## Julian G

deacon said:


> I totally agree with Slam, it is ok as I have seen many trainers begin prey work with their own dogs on multiple occasions. However you must know what you are doing.


Well I think maybe using a tug for obedience work is fine, perhaps it's better to tie the prey item to a string or use a flirt pole so they bite "away" from the handler?


----------



## mycobraracr

I've started all my own dogs in prey and use tugs as rewards. Never had an issue. The way a decoy/adversary works a dog and the way a handler does is very different.


----------



## Breaker's mom

Looked at the first pic., very nice, but the second one made me smile


----------



## Slamdunc

deacon said:


> made any good cases or had any good captures with K-9 Boru yet Slam?


Deacon, I have been running Patrol Schools non stop since last August. I finished a school mid January and started a new Patrol School in February. I have three handlers in training now. I've still been working Boomer. 

However, I did certify Boru today. It's been a lot of work and as much as I like this dog, he came with some issues that has made training the "out" a challenge. He "outed" for certification, it wasn't as pretty as I like, but good enough to get the job done. I will be covering the street with him this weekend. It should be interesting.


----------



## cloudpump

Slamdunc said:


> Deacon, I have been running Patrol Schools non stop since last August. I finished a school mid January and started a new Patrol School in February. I have three handlers in training now. I've still been working Boomer.
> 
> However, I did certify Boru today. It's been a lot of work and as much as I like this dog, he came with some issues that has made training the "out" a challenge. He "outed" for certification, it wasn't as pretty as I like, but good enough to get the job done. I will be covering the street with him this weekend. It should be interesting.


Is Boomer officially retired? I think he needs his own tribute thread posted up.


----------



## Slamdunc

mycobraracr said:


> I've started all my own dogs in prey and use tugs as rewards. Never had an issue. The way a decoy/adversary works a dog and the way a handler does is very different.


Yes, and the way the dog reacts should be different as well.


----------



## zetti

Slamdunc said:


> We are going really off topic here. Perhaps, you should start a thread about this. I completely disagree with never holding the prey object as a handler. Most folks do it more than you would realize. My pups, and I raise most of my dogs from pups are all started in prey by me. I have never had an issue with this. My dogs learn that it is ok to bite the "prey object" and not me. I've done all the bite work on some of my dogs up to an SchH / IPO 1 by myself. One would need to understand how to work or decoy for dogs in prey and defense.
> 
> I do agree that inexperienced handlers and decoys should not do this as they can do more harm than good. If you do not understand the concepts and nuances of decoying and raising a working pup then you are better off not trying this at home.
> 
> Like MAW, I also do not let my dogs bite me or put teeth on me. I also never rough house with my dogs.


Then there are those puppies for whom *everything* is a prey object.


----------



## deacon

I currently have a (1) dog team class going. A dual trained Shepherd a neighboring agency gave away after the program went belly up. The dog has needed a lot of work. I don't believe he has had much in service training since his initial course. The current handler in training with him has prior experience so the course is going smoothly except the dog wants to climb the lead a lot.


I finished a drug dog team last month for another agency and already the team is racking up finds.


----------



## Slamdunc

cloudpump said:


> Is Boomer officially retired? I think he needs his own tribute thread posted up.


Not yet. We are going to have a big retirement party for him when he does retire. 

A tribute thread would be nice, he really does deserve it. I have a ton of photos and video that I need to put together and do something with.


----------



## Jenny720

Congratulations on Boru's certification!!!!


----------



## Slamdunc

Jenny720 said:


> Congratulations on Boru's certification!!!!


Thank you!


----------



## RZZNSTR

Hey Jim! If you get a moment shoot some video of Boru's first day on the street. All the best and good luck!


----------



## deacon

Slam, how did Boru do on the street? Any good utilizations with him?


----------



## Slamdunc

Deacon,
He did well. 

Had one track for a couple of "suspicious persons" in an industrial area that ran at the sight of the Police. Boru tracked intensely and was on it. There were no charges and possibly juveniles, so I was just as happy not to find them. I didn't want them getting bit, which was a distinct possibility if Boru got to them before I realized. I tracked him on a 6' leash and prong collar. Not how I generally do it. If it were felony suspects I would have cut him loose in one junk yard we tracked through. But, for trespassing or some 35 year old guy playing pokemon looking for pikachoo, I didn't want them finding a Boruachew. 

Overall, a good night. We assisted on a few arrests for Officer Safety. I really should have brought Boomer as there were some good traffic stops that needed a narcotics dog. I'm working this weekend and will have both dogs with me.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

LOL!!! " Boruachew"

I was wondering how it was going, too. Good luck! Keep us posted, I hope he does well.


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## Jenny720

Must be exciting having a new partner! Glad to see Boomer is working per diem- lol!


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## Slamdunc

Jenny720 said:


> Must be exciting having a new partner! Glad to see Boomer is working per diem- lol!


It will be super exciting when responding to the right calls. Vehicle pursuits, armed robbery subjects that have fled on foot, violent felons, burglaries in progress, that will be good stuff with Boru. He will be outstanding in that aspect of his job, it is what he was built for. Tracking a suspicious person with no charges is just stressful with Boru.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

No LEO or Schutzhund experience but I work in the justice system. This has been a fascinating and educational thread to read. Congratulations on Boru's certification and tell Boomer congrats on his retirement. Your boys really do the breed and K-9s proud. Thank you for your service.


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## Slamdunc

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> No LEO or Schutzhund experience but I work in the justice system. This has been a fascinating and educational thread to read. Congratulations on Boru's certification and tell Boomer congrats on his retirement. Your boys really do the breed and K-9s proud. Thank you for your service.


Thank you!


----------



## ausdland

Slamdunc said:


> It will be super exciting when responding to the right calls. Vehicle pursuits, armed robbery subjects that have fled on foot, violent felons, burglaries in progress, that will be good stuff with Boru. He will be outstanding in that aspect of his job, it is what he was built for. Tracking a suspicious person with no charges is just stressful with Boru.


What do you mean by that sentence? Just trying to understand LE tracking.


----------



## Slamdunc

*Tracking a suspicious person with no charges is just stressful with Boru.*



ausdland said:


> What do you mean by that sentence? Just trying to understand LE tracking.


Because we train "find and bite." I really don't want to come across a hidden individual, hunkered down in a bunch of bushes at 2 AM that I can't see, but the heat seeking guiding missile attached to my leash will find. Missing people are one thing, suspicious individuals that run at the sight of police are something completely different. The job these days is often one of minimizing liability and risk, especially when viewed by City managers, supervisors and the upper echelon. Honestly, tracking a suspicious person that may be about to commit a crime or was prevented by the sight of the Patrol car is a risk vs reward situation. Very high risk from a liability standpoint and very little reward. That is why I'd rather track a violent felon than what I did on Sunday night. It simply was not worth the risk; aka liability. To large of downside and not much of an upside which makes it stressful. If that makes sense? The days of proactive policing and going the extra mile to prevent crime and catching the low level bad guys are almost a thing of the past. It is a terrible thing to say, but it is a fact of modern policing, the media and our society. I'm still going to the hot calls, I'm just not as anxious to put myself in a bad spot (liability) over a call with no charges or known crime committed. All that combined with a fur missile that has one objective in mind at the end of my leash, limits what I may want to do.


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## ausdland

I understand liability v. benefit. I thought you were referring to the manner in which your dog tracks.


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## Slamdunc

ausdland said:


> I understand liability v. benefit. I thought you were referring to the manner in which your dog tracks.


No, the dog is a tracking machine, literally a heat seeking, guided fur missile. I like how the dog tracks, actually I love how the dog tracks, I just need to be hyper vigilant and super careful. That is the only difference.


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## deacon

Any good deployments and apprehensions yet Slam?


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## Slamdunc

Not yet, I only have 3 shifts on the street with him. I'm running a patrol school full time through July. I have him with me everyday and I am listening to the radio for a good hot call to jump on. I will dip out of training and beat the handler working the street to a good call.


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## RZZNSTR

Slamdunc said:


> Not yet, I only have 3 shifts on the street with him. I'm running a patrol school full time through July. I have him with me everyday and I am listening to the radio for a good hot call to jump on. I will dip out of training and beat the handler working the street to a good call.


 

Boy does that sound familiar! >


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## deacon

Slam have you gotten him on the street full time yet? If so any good captures?


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## Slamdunc

@deacon,
Nope, not yet. I finished the Patrol School in July and I just started a Narcotics K9 School. I'm pretty much training and instructing full time, between the patrol schools and narcotics schools. We've opened our schools up to outside agencies and I have two handlers from other PD's in my Narcotics school. I started cross training Boru for Narcotics today.

I came really close last Saturday night. 

I covered evening shift since we were short handed. I backed a patrol officer up on a traffic stop. Tags didn't belong to the vehicle, so I swung by the stop for Officer safety. I approached the passenger's side of the suspect's vehicle to watch him. He took off and we had a high speed, three city pursuit that lasted about a 1/2 hour. Officers were able to deploy spike strips when we came back into our city and flatten his rear tire. I was behind him and could his driver's side window was open. I gave K9 warnings over my PA as the pursuit was ongoing. I notified supervisors and the other Officers in the pursuit that I was sending the dog if the suspect ran. Finally, after driving on his rim for about 10 minutes the suspect slowed and stopped a block from where it started. I hopped out with Boru, who was targeted and gave warnings again. I was all set to send the dog and Boru was amped and ready to go. 

The suspect wouldn't get out of his car because he was afraid of the dog. We convinced him to get out and walk backwards to us, Boru firing off the entire time. The suspect complied and was taken into custody with out any force. One of my big concerns with Boru was exactly this situation, him all pumped up, enraged, focused and targeted on a suspect. Then the suspect complies and Boru has no release for all his pent up energy, frustration and aggression. Boru was perfect, I praised him up, gave him second to decompress, cleared a path to my car and put him. He didn't redirect, stayed clear headed and happily jumped back into my car. I was thrilled. 

Once this school ends in November, I will get him on the street. I still listen to the radio for that good hot call that I can jump on.


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## newlie

Glad that things ended safely and no one got hurt. Mr. Boru-a-chew did a great job!

I hope it won't be too long before you post another video. I love watching all of them, but the ones in the bottle room are my favorites!


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## cliffson1

Nice!! Jim!
Btw, Arko got apprehension last week from stolen car bailout by three perps, he tracked suspect about 10 blocks and they stopped individual who turned out to be one of the three.


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## RZZNSTR

Slamdunc said:


> @*deacon*,
> Nope, not yet. I finished the Patrol School in July and I just started a Narcotics K9 School. I'm pretty much training and instructing full time, between the patrol schools and narcotics schools. We've opened our schools up to outside agencies and I have two handlers from other PD's in my Narcotics school. I started cross training Boru for Narcotics today.
> 
> I came really close last Saturday night.
> 
> I covered evening shift since we were short handed. I backed a patrol officer up on a traffic stop. Tags didn't belong to the vehicle, so I swung by the stop for Officer safety. I approached the passenger's side of the suspect's vehicle to watch him. He took off and we had a high speed, three city pursuit that lasted about a 1/2 hour. Officers were able to deploy spike strips when we came back into our city and flatten his rear tire. I was behind him and could his driver's side window was open. I gave K9 warnings over my PA as the pursuit was ongoing. I notified supervisors and the other Officers in the pursuit that I was sending the dog if the suspect ran. Finally, after driving on his rim for about 10 minutes the suspect slowed and stopped a block from where it started. I hopped out with Boru, who was targeted and gave warnings again. I was all set to send the dog and Boru was amped and ready to go.
> 
> The suspect wouldn't get out of his car because he was afraid of the dog. We convinced him to get out and walk backwards to us, Boru firing off the entire time. The suspect complied and was taken into custody with out any force. One of my big concerns with Boru was exactly this situation, him all pumped up, enraged, focused and targeted on a suspect. Then the suspect complies and Boru has no release for all his pent up energy, frustration and aggression. Boru was perfect, I praised him up, gave him second to decompress, cleared a path to my car and put him. He didn't redirect, stayed clear headed and happily jumped back into my car. I was thrilled.
> 
> Once this school ends in November, I will get him on the street. I still listen to the radio for that good hot call that I can jump on.




Jim,


That was very good work. Well done! I'm glad it all worked out. Puts more confidence in you about him and he learns from the Code 3 experience. Congrats!


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## deacon

Don't stop telling the calls. I am retired now do not miss police work at all but miss the hot calls for K-9. It is pathetic in the city I live in. Population 40,000 and they will only employ drug dogs no type of patrol dogs at all,. The kicker is all 3 are Shepherds who could do patrol. Just a few days ago they had a murder, located the suspect inside a residence, and called a neighboring agencies SWAT team to extract him because of no patrol dogs or even an entry team or SWAT.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I can't wait to hear about the first time Boru gets to catch the guy for real


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## Slamdunc

Thanks all. I was involved in another pursuit the other day. One of our traffic units got into a pursuit with a motorcycle that passed him at 100 mph on the highway. The dummy made the mistake of exiting the highway and traveling at high speeds through a residential area then down a busy 2 lane road. He exited the road and road his crotch rocket about 75 yards into a soybean field. He plowed a good path for a while, then the soybeans got the best of him and he dumped his bike. 

I was off duty going to assist with a K-9 demo. Boru was in the car and I heard the call on the radio. The pursuit was going on about 3 miles from my house and I headed that way. I was the first on the scene to assist the traffic unit. I could see the top of the traffic cops head as he walked through the bean field chasing the guy. The bean field was a couple of hundred acres and the soy beans were about 5' tall. I drove my truck into the bean field and started giving warnings on the PA. I couldn't send Boru, because the Traffic Officer was also in the field. 

The suspect heard my warnings over the PA and gave up to the Patrol Officers. Lucky day for him, he would never have seen Boru coming through the beans, until it was too late.


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## Steve Strom

> The suspect heard my warnings over the PA and gave up to the Patrol Officers. Lucky day for him, he would never have seen Boru coming through the beans, until it was too late.


A little like Boru in that pit of plastic bottles?


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## Hineni7

Boru is a super cop dog, he fights crime (or they give up) without him ever having to exit the vehicle! Awesome!


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## Nigel

Glad to see Boru is still successful even if it's being a deterrent to end the chase. On the other hand now there is a po'd soybean farmer wondering where to send the bill, hopefully it's on the suspect??


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## Slamdunc

I'm sure this farmer has dealt with this before, he has thousands of acres. I wouldn't be surprised if he has had vehicles drive through or crash in his fields before. I'm thinking the arresting Officer would charge the suspect with damaged property and name the farmer as the victim. I've done that after vehicle pursuits where the suspect drove their car into a house, yard or deck and tried to flee on foot. Hit and run is a felony if damages are over a $1,000. I have no idea of the dollar amount of damage the motorcycle did driving through the soy bean field, but the tow truck going into the field did damage as well. The suspect is responsible for all of that. I can only hope it would be over a $1,000 to add another felony to the charges and his record. 

This genius had videos of guys on motorcycles outrunning the police during pursuits on his Facebook page. With a comment of "someone get this guy a "I don't stop for cops" shirt!" Well, this guy may not stop for cops, but he sure does stop for soy beans. 

The guy is lucky to be alive and relatively uninjured, very lucky he didn't cause any other accidents or citizens to be hurt. The farmer can always plant more soy beans.


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## Heartandsoul

Slamdunc, does a vehicle chase get Boru pumped up and ready? I'm just wondering if he maintains quiet or what his demeanor is.


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## Slamdunc

He is very quiet in the car, even going code. It really doesn't take to much to get him pumped up, he is amped once he exits the car. During a pursuit you can get a good read on when the suspect plans on bailing. For example they will start to circle a neighborhood looking for a familiar place to run. I will pump the dog up a little during the pursuit by talking to him, "you ready, Boru? Let's go buddy, lets catch this guy!"


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## Sunsilver

Soybeans 5 feet high??  Wow, here in Ontario, the variety we plant only gets about 8 to 12 INCHES!! Cornfields, OTOH, would be a great place for a suspect to hide...


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## Heartandsoul

Slamdunc said:


> He is very quiet in the car, even going code. It really doesn't take to much to get him pumped up, he is amped once he exits the car. During a pursuit you can get a good read on when the suspect plans on bailing. For example they will start to circle a neighborhood looking for a familiar place to run. I will pump the dog up a little during the pursuit by talking to him, "you ready, Boru? Let's go buddy, lets catch this guy!"


Thanks. I had suspected he would be quiet but I bet there's an anticipatory gleem in his eyes.


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## Slamdunc

Ohhh, there is always some kind of gleem in his eye.


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## Benjaminb

Slamdunc, has Boru gotten any criminals to the ground yet?


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## Slamdunc

We have had some apprehensions, where suspects have complied. I?m running a narcotics K-9 school so my time on the street is limited.


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## Slamdunc

Got to do a little work with Boru last night. I covered the evening shift for another handler and worked Boru on the street. We responded to a multi vehicle crash with injuries. Three cars involved and when the primary Officer showed up the driver of the vehicle that caused the accident had fled. All three cars were totaled and several people were being transported to the hospital. There was evidence of Marijuana use in the suspect's car. For those that may not realize this, it is very dangerous to smoke marijuana and drive, it is also illegal. Though some lesser evolved or less intelligent people do it every day. 

I started a track from the suspect vehicle, in a densely populated urban area and Boru wound up doing a 2.2 mile hard surface tracking crossing several 4 lanes roads to the front lawn of the suspect's house with him standing outside. The driver's license was revoked and was driving a rental car that was rented by a female friend. The driver in his haste to escape had left his two cell phones in the car and was unable to "phone a friend" to get picked up. The track took almost 40 minutes and I started 10 - 15 minutes are the accident. The track was almost completely asphalt streets and sidewalks with a few yards that had grass. Virtually, 95% hard surface. I had two Police Officers with me as cover Officers and they were amazed as were the other Officers on seen. The look on the suspect's face was priceless! He really had a hard time wrapping his head around the fact that the dog tracked from the accident to his house. The residual glitter form the air bag on his wrist and forearms was also great, along with the scrape marks on his wrist and hands from the air bag. He admitted to the stuff in the car being his, his baby's car seat and his girlfriends, but he had not been in the car all day and doesn't drive or have a cell phone. :surprise:

He was doing the whole overly friendly thing, super talkative, inviting us in to watch the game, etc. Until our Forensics unit showed up and took fingerprints, DNA and then pictures. It was all fun and games and he was making stupid faces for the camera, until we said turn your hands over and lets see your wrists and forearms. His demeanor instantly changed as you could easily see the air bag residue, fibers and scrape marks on his hands and wrists. Then it wasn't so funny any more. Must have been a real buzz kill. :grin2: Especially, when he is looking at numerous felonies. 

Boru did an outstanding job! A 2 + mile hard surface track is one of my longest to an apprehension to date. Boomer had several in the 1 3/4 - 2 mile range. This one was tough and Boru really worked it. I just held the leash and followed him.


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## Steve Strom

Ha, you and Boru made that guy miss one of the greatest comebacks in the glorious history of the Oakland Raiders! I hope no one hurt seriously, but at least this guy's already suffered that.


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## Steve Strom

And all kidding aside, that is pretty friggin impressive.


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## dogma13

All of the blood,sweat,and tears you put into Boru is really paying off.Very,very,impressive!Congratulations on the arrest!


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## Jenny720

Way to go Boru!!! Congratulations!!!! That has to be a healthy natural high having Boru do his thing!!!


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## Hineni7

That is truly outstanding and congratulations!! Excellent job! Urban trails are always difficult regardless of aging, add distance to it and more potential complications can occur.. Again, job well done! Way to go Boru!


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## camperbc

Slamdunc, I just want to take a moment to say Hi, and to tell you how much I have enjoyed reading all 24 pages of this very interesting and informative thread this evening, and also to thank you for your service... I am not American, but as we have a daughter in law enforcement, (RCMP officer in Alberta) my wife and I can certainly relate to what you do for a living, and we wish more people could see just how important folks such as yourself are to their communities. Keep up the great work, and give Boru a big hug from your northern neighbors! Please keep the stories, pictures and videos coming!!

Glen
Focus On Newfoundland


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## car2ner

I admit it. I like to watch Live*PD on the A&E channel. So often the "bad guy" keeps on talking and talking and talking as if they can talk their way out of being a suspect. They don't seem to realize it makes it worse. 

And I always perk up when they bring in the K9. Last night I watched one do a sniff on a guy who was stopped for riding his bike at night with no light. The dog sniffed his pack and was done in a split second. The same with the bike. But the little bag that held the guy's phone, he picked it up as if it were his reward toy! Took a bit of work to get him to "out". Luckily he didn't break anything, and yes, there was stuff in there to be found. 

Slamdunk, when I read these posts my mind brings up these images from Live*PD. 


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## RZZNSTR

Jim,


Bravo and well done! That's an outstanding track! Congrats to you and Boru!


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## deacon

Awesome Slam! reminds me of one where I was tracking off lead a date rape suspect. Lost Kanto for a few and he wound up at the front door residence of the perp and was there for two and a half minutes before I located him! The butthead talked my ear off until the investigators arrived, removed his clothing, and then placed him under arrest. Not so funny after that! lol


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## Benjaminb

So has boru been able to put any criminals on their knees begging for for him to let go of their arm?


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## Slamdunc

Benjaminb said:


> So has boru been able to put any criminals on their knees begging for for him to let go of their arm?


No, everyone has wisely decided to give up and comply.


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## Springbrz

Slamdunc curiosity leads me to ask you a question, if I may. Live PD is the latest LE hit show. I admit to enjoying watching it from time to time. Anywho, on several episodes the K-9 unit has deployed the dog and I have noticed that on more than one occasion the handler has to repeat the out command several times before the dog outs (even when the dog is leashed during a bite on the suspect). Is this common? I get that the dog is in a very high state of engagement. But isn't strict obedience a key element for LE dogs? One example: On a recent episode the dog had the suspect down and had hold of the thigh. Three LEO's including the handler were around the suspect. There was no shouting and such. It was relatively calm considering. The handler had the dog either on leash or by the collar (can't remember). Handler had to give the out command 4 times before the dog released the suspect. The whole time the handler was pulling back hard on the collar. I thought it was odd it took 4 out commands before the dog let go. 
Appreciate your incite about my curiosity.


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## Hineni7

I am going to jump in here, although my dogs aren't bit trained (SAR).. I would venture to think that some of the drive for the dog to hold on despite the out command comes from a struggling subject.. If the 'prey' keeps on fighting it is expedient for the dog to keep his drip if not for its own safety... That being said, I would think it is sometimes adrenaline as you said, as well as individual dog/handler oriented... 

I watched a great track over about 6 fences done mid November (live pd) and wondered about the constant 'good boy, good boy, good boy' the handler kept saying. Unless I jerk on the lead (usually colliding with some inanimate object my mack truck dog drug me into at some speed) or have to restart the dog after waiting for traffic to pass, etc, I rarely utter the 'goods' that this handler digital... That being said, it was a great track and they were right across from where the subject was found when he was found, so definitely on track. Interesting to see different dogs and handler's work their dogs.. I am interested in what slamdunc has to say too..


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## Shepherd55

Very amazing dog! He looks very big in the picture Congrats!


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## deacon

It is not uncommon for the dog to not out the first time for a variety of reasons as the suspect is still resisting, the subject is in shock screaming and moving wildly, or he is causing the dog some pain, minor or major. I wish the suspect would comply and stand still then on most occasions my partners and other dogs I have trained would most likely cease their hold and release on the first or second command as trained. However in most cases that is not possible with a high drive Shepherd or Mali attached to some part of your body.:smile2:


----------



## thegooseman90

I'm not sure if it's still relevant today, but I asked this question of a retired k9 cop once, and he said it's a combination of the person fighting and screaming that really amps the dog up and the way they out the dog. Basically as best I can remember it is they use the collar to choke the dog off the bite which apparently actually increases his desire to bite and keep his grip. This guy has been retired for like 20 years or something so like I said idk how much of this still rings true today.


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## Springbrz

deacon said:


> It is not uncommon for the dog to not out the first time for a variety of reasons as the suspect is still resisting, the subject is in shock screaming and moving wildly, or he is causing the dog some pain, minor or major. I wish the suspect would comply and stand still then on most occasions my partners and other dogs I have trained would most likely cease their hold and release on the first or second command as trained. However in most cases that is not possible with a high drive Shepherd or Mali attached to some part of your body.:smile2:


Thank you for the handler's perspective. It makes a lot of sense. In the example I gave the camera crew got in pretty tight and after I believe the second out the suspect did appear to be laying pretty still (on officer's command) considering the dog had a death grip on the thigh. Suspect was asking (more like crying) for the officers to get the dog off. There was several long seconds being filmed of the dog just holding tight while the handler pulled steadily back on the dogs collar while the dog strained to keep it's grip. The handler repeated out a couple more times in a firm but calm voice before the dog outed. Pretty sure at that point the person was ready to pass out from the pain. When the dog released the person just laid there on the ground. I suppose the dog felt like "hey you told me to get'em and I did so it's mine now and you can't have it". It just left me wondering if it is common for the dog to not want to out in the field as opposed to the way they do in training. 

I've seen a few LE K9 demos and as I expected the dog pretty much outs on the first command. I know these dogs are very well trained so I just figured they would out when told. Training/demos vs. real world.


----------



## deacon

Most PSDs can easily tell the difference between K-9 demos, training, and the real thing. We try to set up as realistic scenarios as we can, but once the dog gets scent of the equipment the quarry is wearing, he definitely knows it is not the real thing and on most occasions behave appropriately as trained. We often do our search problems with no equipment to ensure the dog hunts the quarry on tracks and building searches with no bite. If we are giving the dog a bite at the end of the track we will place the equipment at the end, have the quarry run the track, then place the equipment on at the hiding spot to ensure he is hunting the quarry and not the equipment until he reaches the end and smells the equipment Still he can tell the difference from enhanced or fear scent which is so much stronger than just someone running the problem just dropping normal scent. Just watch a good video and see how intense the dog is tracking a real criminal compared to a quarry running a training track, the difference at times is amazing.


----------



## Slamdunc

Springbrz said:


> Slamdunc curiosity leads me to ask you a question, if I may. Live PD is the latest LE hit show. I admit to enjoying watching it from time to time. Anywho, on several episodes the K-9 unit has deployed the dog and I have noticed that on more than one occasion the handler has to repeat the out command several times before the dog outs (even when the dog is leashed during a bite on the suspect). Is this common? I get that the dog is in a very high state of engagement. But isn't strict obedience a key element for LE dogs? One example: On a recent episode the dog had the suspect down and had hold of the thigh. Three LEO's including the handler were around the suspect. There was no shouting and such. It was relatively calm considering. The handler had the dog either on leash or by the collar (can't remember). Handler had to give the out command 4 times before the dog released the suspect. The whole time the handler was pulling back hard on the collar. I thought it was odd it took 4 out commands before the dog let go.
> Appreciate your incite about my curiosity.


The fact is that Police K-9's do not have to verbally out live bites on the street. The dog must be removed or taken off the suspect when he is compliant and it is tactically safe to do so. Removing the dog in a reasonable time can be by command, a lift off or even an outing tool. 

We certify every year and aggression control is part of the certification process, all dogs must verbal call off a bite on a decoy. This is done twice during the certification. The dogs are all taught to verbally call off in training. My retired dog Boomer called off or verbally outed on probably more than half of his street bites. He did not verbally call off the suspects that had punched or kicked him or who were still actively resisting. I simply lifted him off those bites. 

Police K-9's are not sport dogs and street work is different than a demo and suit work. The important thing is to remove the dog quickly once the suspect is compliant and under control. To leave the dog on a live bite any longer could be consider excess force and that is serious. Patrol Dogs do not need to be as "clean" or out like a sport dog. The important thing is to get the dog off. That can be by a verbal command, lift off or the use of of an outing tool to remove the dog.


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## deacon

I am starting Palermo tomorrow tracking as well. Still going to be strange tracking myself. Would be interested in you posting some work of Boru tracking.


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## Slamdunc

deacon said:


> I am starting Palermo tomorrow tracking as well. Still going to be strange tracking myself. Would be interested in you posting some work of Boru tracking.


Very nice, good luck training him. 

My last track with Boru was 2.2 miles, all hard surface and busy roads. We tracked right up to the house. Felony hit and run with injuries, drunk / high and suspended driver. I love tracking, especially hard surface tracking. I don't have to tell you that there is nothing better than tracking a suspect and apprehending him.


----------



## Hineni7

Very nice! Curious what happened when you tracked to the house... Was suspect surprised he was found?


----------



## dogma13

Slamdunc said:


> Got to do a little work with Boru last night. I covered the evening shift for another handler and worked Boru on the street. We responded to a multi vehicle crash with injuries. Three cars involved and when the primary Officer showed up the driver of the vehicle that caused the accident had fled. All three cars were totaled and several people were being transported to the hospital. There was evidence of Marijuana use in the suspect's car. For those that may not realize this, it is very dangerous to smoke marijuana and drive, it is also illegal. Though some lesser evolved or less intelligent people do it every day.
> 
> I started a track from the suspect vehicle, in a densely populated urban area and Boru wound up doing a 2.2 mile hard surface tracking crossing several 4 lanes roads to the front lawn of the suspect's house with him standing outside. The driver's license was revoked and was driving a rental car that was rented by a female friend. The driver in his haste to escape had left his two cell phones in the car and was unable to "phone a friend" to get picked up. The track took almost 40 minutes and I started 10 - 15 minutes are the accident. The track was almost completely asphalt streets and sidewalks with a few yards that had grass. Virtually, 95% hard surface. I had two Police Officers with me as cover Officers and they were amazed as were the other Officers on seen. The look on the suspect's face was priceless! He really had a hard time wrapping his head around the fact that the dog tracked from the accident to his house. The residual glitter form the air bag on his wrist and forearms was also great, along with the scrape marks on his wrist and hands from the air bag. He admitted to the stuff in the car being his, his baby's car seat and his girlfriends, but he had not been in the car all day and doesn't drive or have a cell phone. :surprise:
> 
> He was doing the whole overly friendly thing, super talkative, inviting us in to watch the game, etc. Until our Forensics unit showed up and took fingerprints, DNA and then pictures. It was all fun and games and he was making stupid faces for the camera, until we said turn your hands over and lets see your wrists and forearms. His demeanor instantly changed as you could easily see the air bag residue, fibers and scrape marks on his hands and wrists. Then it wasn't so funny any more. Must have been a real buzz kill. :grin2: Especially, when he is looking at numerous felonies.
> 
> Boru did an outstanding job! A 2 + mile hard surface track is one of my longest to an apprehension to date. Boomer had several in the 1 3/4 - 2 mile range. This one was tough and Boru really worked it. I just held the leash and followed him.


Here's the story @Hineni7 !Pretty impressive eh?



Hineni7 said:


> Very nice! Curious what happened when you tracked to the house... Was suspect surprised he was found?


----------



## Hineni7

Thanks, I forgot about that story! It definitely was impressive


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Just wondering- how do you lift a dog off a bite and what is an outing tool?


----------



## Slamdunc

Nurse Bishop said:


> Just wondering- how do you lift a dog off a bite and what is an outing tool?


Here is how you use an outing tool:






Here is Boru in the same training scenario, watch my little buddy at the 1:10 mark >






K-9 training is a lot of fun! I love my job!


----------



## Nurse Bishop

He really likes to bite  So the outing tool is a curved little metal rod.

My Inga bites like that on her rubber pig.


----------



## Slamdunc

Nurse Bishop said:


> He really likes to bite  So the outing tool is a curved little metal rod.
> 
> My Inga bites like that on her rubber pig.


The outing tool we use is something I make. A flat screwdriver that I bend to a 45 degree angle. Then it is covered with rubber radiator hose. There is about a 1/4 - 1/2" piece of hose left hanging over the end of the screwdriver. 

To clarify in the videos that I posted above, the decoy has firehose wrapped around his forearm from his wrist to just above his elbow. There is no other protection for the decoy. Although, we are all laughing it is still serious stuff and I was trying to avoid any accidental bites. It is critical to place the dog in exactly the right spot or a real bite will occur. Even with the firehose wrap this is very painful, which is why we are all laughing. I had to tell the other Officer to stop laughing when Boru was on the bite because I was starting to tear up from laughing so hard. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to see if he continued to make me laugh. 

Using the tool takes practice and you can see when I employed it on the first dog how quickly he came off. You simply slide it in the dogs mouth and turn till the end of the rubber hose touches the roof of the mouth and the dog lets go. It is finesse, timing and knowing how to do it. It is fast and effective and we can do it easily with out hurting the dog or causing any injury. 

This is one of those videos that should have a disclaimer saying "Don't try this at home." You can get bit pretty badly if your not careful taking the dog off and are slow to move your hand out of the way.


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## Sabis mom

Slamdunc I have a question. My former boss used a length of thin almost stiff rubber? He basically pushed it to the back of the dogs throat, I think, to make them let go. Said it was not harmfully just kind of made them want to spit it out? Would that be the same thing or same idea? 
I only saw him use it twice, and I was just curious.


----------



## Slamdunc

He would be employing the dogs gag reflex and it would probably work. It might be difficult to get the hose far enough back on a dog with a really full deep bite. This is something that I learned from a couple of excellent Dutch K-9 and KNPV guys. It is simple, requires only gross motor skills and works quickly. Many of our handlers carry a tool and one company even makes them for resale, much prettier than mine. It is available from Sirius K9, I have one of those also. 

For a patrol dog on a real street bite, sometimes trying to verbally out a dog is not in a Hanlder's best interests. All that is required is to remove the dog when it is tactically safe to do so. The outing tool is quick, effective and convenient. Once the suspect is compliant the dog must come off. This makes it easy and can lessen the many forms of liability a handler may have to deal with trying to do his job.


----------



## Sabis mom

Thanks. He has been deceased 10 years or so, I can't ask him. In fact I had forgotten all about it until I watched your video. 
Our dogs were patrol dogs, who were also PPD's. Some, my Sabi, also trained for narcotics detection. Things are a bit weird up here, security have more dogs working then the police. 
Anyway I was just curious. If you have more videos of it being used, love to see them.


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## deacon

I miss those training days working my k-9s over the years before retirement Now all I do is train others, not as much fun!:crying:


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## Slamdunc

Deacon, training should still be fun. Especially, when some one else gets bit, that is always fun. 

I make it a point to have fun at training or I'd lose my mind some days.


----------



## thegooseman90

Nurse Bishop said:


> He really likes to bite
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the outing tool is a curved little metal rod.
> 
> My Inga bites like that on her rubber pig.


 not to jump in on slams thread but tools to out aren't metal. I also don't know that I'd go the route of making one myself when you can buy a poly break stick for under $15. And trust me it'll hold up to any dog. It was the only way to break my dogs off hogs when hunting. 

http://www.hardcorehogdogs.com/Hunting_Supplies.html


----------



## Slamdunc

I have not seen those poly break sticks. The ones we have work really well and quick. It takes about 5 minutes to make and costs under $10. I've been using them since 2014 and several of our handlers carry them every day on the street. I'm sure the poly sticks work as well. 

I have no experience with hunting dogs, the only animals I hunt are humans.


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## thegooseman90

After reading your description of your tool there's a difference in the way the two tools work too. The break stick is wedge shaped, relatively thin at the point and gets thicker towards the back. It's inserted in that space towards the back of the mouth just behind the molars and used to pry the mouth open. For the novice user I think it would be easier to use and honestly the situation people would mostly find the use for it would be in a dog fight. Unless they're also hunting, be it 4 legged or 2 legged animals ?


----------



## Slamdunc

The tool we use is bent at a 45 degree angle, it is inserted in the back of the mouth and you simply turn or twist up. You can see it in the video I posted. You can see how quickly the dog lets go when I put the outing tool in and turn. It is very quick and just takes a little finesse. We don't pry the dog's mouth open, we simply insert the tool and turn to the roof of the mouth. It's like hitting the gag reflex and the dog instinctively opens his mouth. We do not use a verbal out command while doing this. It is really quick and easy once you get the hang of it. Watch the video I posted and you will see how quickly it works. 

If we had to pry the dog's mouth open that would cause a lot of issues for us.


----------



## thegooseman90

Ahh I see. I admit I didn't watch the video so when I heard radiator hose I was thinking the big thick rubber and was only imagining how difficult it must be to get in there. I can see how a break stick wouldn't be ideal with a dog with some human aggression. Your hand would be right there for the redirect. Cool videos and thanks for sharing!


----------



## Nurse Bishop

And so how is a dog 'lifted off' of a bite?


----------



## Slamdunc

Nurse Bishop said:


> And so how is a dog 'lifted off' of a bite?


You grab the collar with both hands on either side of the head, push the collar forward and lift up into the bite. You are normally straddling the dog and lift from behind the head. you roll your wrists up and out and lift. This is a very simplified explanation. This works well with some dogs and is easy, but some dogs can be harder to out and react aggressively.


----------



## deacon

If I may add you must be on your guard as well when removing the K-9, some dogs are so excited they will to turn and grab the first thing available. In most cases the handler.


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## Nurse Bishop

Then is it sort similar to breaking up a dog fight? The dog, your own dog, might bite you.


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## Apex1

At the 1:10 mark, that was a redirected bit on you? Is that what I have heard of as "not clear in the head"?


----------



## Apex1

Ever since i made this post/question it has bothered me. I know that thresholds come into play. My knowledge is so limited. It is an honest question with no malice intended, if I sounded like an a hole I apologize profusely. I think my pup is not clear in the head for a couple of reasons and I am just trying to better my understanding. You and Boru do a dangerous job to protect and serve selflessly and I respect and appreciate your service. I respect the life you give Boru given his level of aggression and the punishment you have taken for it...you give him the life he was bred for and there is so much honor in that. Please take no offense to my question and thank you both of you for your service.


----------



## Slamdunc

Apex1 said:


> At the 1:10 mark, that was a redirected bit on you? Is that what I have heard of as "not clear in the head"?


Thank you for the question and the follow up comments. There is nothing wrong with asking an honest question, that is how we all learn. 

Let me start by saying that Boru is very clear headed when on task and working. He is a very focused and driven dog. He is also a very serious and aggressive dog. He is very reactive and very fast to react. He has come a long way since that video was done. He was not redirecting to me but actually biting the leash in the video at the 1:10 mark. It is a very fast and seemingly violent reaction. I have gotten used to this and it no longer bothers me. You can hear me laughing shortly after, as I left. 

What you saw was not so much about him being not "clear in the head" in this case it is a complex question. He was very clear when he was brought in and given his bite command on a passive subject. The issue arose when I tried to remove him from the room. 

I have addressed the issue and today I can easily remove him with out any redirecting. He no longer comes up the leash and the issue has been resolved. He is much calmer, and easier to handle than ever before. I recently certified him in narcotics detection and while we had a few tense moments in training that is all behind us. 

Overall, I would say he is a very clear headed dog while on task and working, whether it is a building search, tracking, detection work or criminal apprehension. He is a very high dog that needed an outlet for his drive. He is easily "capped" when working and under control; the issues where when the task was over and he was not done. 

He has not been the easiest dog to handle or work with that. He has brought his own unique set of challenges to our relationship. Once I realized that he was not really trying to bite me, rather just redirecting to the leash things got better. If he is so spun up that he actually comes up the leash or redirects to the leash, I simply step back. I am in a tough spot with working a dog like this, he is strong, tough aggressive and can react rather violently at times. Dogs like this are built for the work we do and his temperament and drive will surely keep me safe. It has done that already. However, dogs like this will not work for positive training methods alone, physical corrections must also be employed. Corrections must be administered swiftly, harshly and fairly. Once a correction is given and the desired affect has been achieved we immediately move on. There are no hard feelings, no grudges and we are instantly back to praise and reward. Life is good and we have fun once his tail starts to wag. Part of the issue is not really being able to correct the dog in a public setting because things will be taken out of context. Then I will be subjected to the Monday morning quarterbacking of a bunch of poodle, pug and bichon owners that thing that giving cookies and treats solve all behavioral problems. Trust me, it doesn't with tough dogs. 

With all the said, the dog is 1,000 times better than when I got him. We understand each other and work well together. I love this dog and feel very grateful to have him. I also have tremendous gratitude for being partnered with such an exceptional animal. The dog is a beast and I marvel and appreciate his drive, nerves, working ability, aggression, affection and strength everyday. I am very fortunate to work him and handle him.


----------



## tim_s_adams

Well said, my friend! He's one **** of a dog! Congratulations for your work and for your work with him! He's awesome...wouldn't ever want to be on the biting end >


----------



## Aly

Thanks so much for your most recent post, @Slamdunc, and for the service that you and Boru provide for all of us. A couple of questions if I may? First, could you give an example of a dog who_ wasn't _ clear-headed? I think I know what you mean, but want to make sure that I do. Second, you and other LE forum members have often described dogs as 'civil.' What do you mean by that?

Thanks!

Aly


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## Heartandsoul

I usually just read and soak it all in when threads like this begin from very experienced members but wanted to come on and say thanks for all 29 pages. Your integrity to your methods and to your dogs and the honesty with which you explain things. Along with yours and your dog's serviceI have learned a ton. It has helped reset my thought process on a couple issues and questions that I was facing.

oh, and there was a great thread awhile back that explained "civil" when talking about dogs but can't find it so will read again when Slamdunc explains it.


----------



## Slamdunc

Aly said:


> Thanks so much for your most recent post, @Slamdunc, and for the service that you and Boru provide for all of us. A couple of questions if I may? First, could you give an example of a dog who_ wasn't _ clear-headed? I think I know what you mean, but want to make sure that I do. Second, you and other LE forum members have often described dogs as 'civil.' What do you mean by that?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Aly


Thank you!

It is hard to give a specific example of a dog that is not clear headed. I can describe the behavior as being frantic, hectic, unable to contain them self, lacking impulse control and not "capped." This may manifest itself in vocalization, spinning, inability to focus on anything but the stimulus which could be a squirrel, cat, person agitating the dog, etc. You see some of that behavior in Boru as I take him away, but not before. He was clearly on task until he was taken off the bite and then he was very spun up and reactive. 

When you take a high drive dog and give it a stimulus that sets it off and the dog can no longer think about anything else, this is not clear headed. When a dog is so worried about a correction from a heavy handed handler that he can not think of anything else, even when in drive this is not clear headed. When the training or stimulus overloads the dog's brain so much the dog can not process what is going on around him this is not clear headed. Anxious, nervous, frantic or hectic behavior prevents a dog from being "clear headed." Confusion and mixed signals in training can cause a dog to be hectic and frantic. 

That probably made things as clear as mud? I'm sure some one smarter than me can sum it up in one or two sentences in a concise and clear fashion. 

"Civil" is just a term that describes a dog that will bite some one for real with little provocation and wearing no bite equipment. Plenty of dogs will bite a suit or a sleeve and never bite a person for real. Civil, IME describes a dog that will absolutely bite a person with no equipment and little to no provocation when commanded to. When I think of a "civil" dog or describe a dog as civil I am not talking about a fear biter, a weak nerved dog, or a skittish dog. I use civil to describe strong dogs with solid temperaments that have no issue confronting a human and want to fight. Boru is an example of a civil dog as is Boomer.


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## Slamdunc

@Heartandsoul, thank you!


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## Nurse Bishop

So, in the video when Boru came in an bit the helper sitting in the chair who actually had a firehose on his arm under his shirt? (no suit) this is a civil dog. And you had to open his mouth with the tool to make him stop.


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## Slamdunc

Nurse Bishop said:


> So, in the video when Boru came in an bit the helper sitting in the chair who actually had a firehose on his arm under his shirt? (no suit) this is a civil dog. And you had to open his mouth with the tool to make him stop.


He is a "civil dog" because he will bite a person for real wth out any equipment on. It can hard to find volunteers to agree to get bit for real and not wear any type of equipment. You can see in the video how painful it is even when wrapped in firehose. All the firehose does is stop the punctures, we are all bruised and often bleeding after that type of training. I've given dogs "real bites" a few times, usually by mistake.  

He is purposefully taken off the bite that way. We do it for a reason, we use the tool for a reason. There are many layers to training dogs, we build a foundation, add in components and each training session has a desired outcome. For several reasons in that training revolution or scenario we do not verbally out the dogs. The handlers are told to not give an "out" command. We take the dogs off the bite. With out getting into too many details and discussing things about training LE dogs that will be misconstrued or misunderstood on a forum, one reason to use the tool is the safety of the decoy. The decoy has very little protection from the bite.


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## Aly

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, @Slamdunc. I really appreciate it. 



Slamdunc said:


> That probably made things as clear as mud? I'm sure some one smarter than me can sum it up in one or two sentences in a concise and clear fashion.


Not at all; it's perfectly clear. What's intriguing to me (if I understood you correctly) is that the concept of clear headedness can apply to both a dog's behavior and to a dog's disposition or general character. So, even a dog, like Boru, that is dispositionally clear headed can behave frenetically under certain circumstances. If so, I wonder if you only see that frenetic/hectic behavior when you've diverted Boru from a goal, when he's highly aroused? (Madly translating from my own language system here). 

Thanks too for defining 'civil;' I'd been wondering about that for some time. Must admit that I do find the definition more than a little ironic. LOL. But, I get it.

So now I have another question, sorry.  On another thread, either you or @Bailiff (can't recall who and, of course, now I can't find the thread) talked about a "language of agreement and disagreement." If it was you, could you describe what that means and how one goes about teaching it?

Thanks again and in advance. It's terrific to learn and think about this stuff.

Aly


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## CometDog

Just wanted to thank you and your dogs for your service to the public, and also thanks for this thread. It has been great reading and learning.


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## Aly

Slamdunc said:


> The decoy has very little protection from the bite.


One hopes they're well paid... 



Aly


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## tim_s_adams

Aly said:


> So now I have another question, sorry.  On another thread, either you or @Bailiff (can't recall who and, of course, now I can't find the thread) talked about a "language of agreement and disagreement." If it was you, could you describe what that means and how one goes about teaching it?
> 
> Thanks again and in advance. It's terrific to learn and think about this stuff.
> 
> Aly


That was @Ballif, the link is here:


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/724250-puppy-capabilities.html


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## Aly

Thanks Tim!


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## JonRob

Slamdunc, as always your posts are incredibly informative.

Here's a video that shows how the break stick is used:






Here's where you can buy the break stick in the video:

https://www.dogsportholland.nl/en_GB/a-50398559/police-specials/parting-stick-breaker-bar/

It's a good thing for any dog owner to have in case you or your dog is attacked by a dog that latches on.

On civil protection: Just wanted to add that a sport trained dog often goes for the sleeve not the person. A sport dog who bites the sleeve, yanks it off, and prances merrily around with it is cute but usually no good when you're up against a street thug. Not knocking dog sports at all, they're lots of fun for many people and dogs.

On clear headed: Slamdunc, I would love to hear what you think of this police K9 disaster (make sure you play the video):

****Video removed by moderator.*****

Was the dog not clear headed? Or just badly trained? Or both? Obviously the officers should not played tug of war with the poor lady and should have used a break stick if they had one and/or choked the dog off.

I do NOT want this to become a police bashing thread, I have family members who are police officers.


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## Slamdunc

@JonRob, I've seen the video. 

I do not like to comment on videos like that. 

A very unfortunate and horrible accident, I would not fault the dog. I truly feel sorry for the woman, she must have been terrified. 

We train for scenarios exactly like that one. I have brought my 14 year old nephew to training to lay tracks. The scenario is the K9 team is tracking a missing autistic child. Everyone is introduced to my nephew and given a stern warning to not allow him to get bit. That the track is a no bite scenario and biting the 14 year old would be a very bad outcome. They are also instructed that the track layer will not be wearing a suit or have any protective clothing. Then I put a bite suit on and strategically place myself in a spot where the dog all track directly to me, with my nephew a safe distance away. The track is designed to draw the dog right to me, using an alley way and wind direction. I will be hidden right behind a dumpster or the corner of a building. If the handler is not reading his dog and cutting corners tactically the dog will engage me before the handler even sees me or can react. Dogs generally give "proximity alerts" and these can save your life. This is one of the tracking scenarios that I use in my Patrol school. I video tape this and the handler's reactions are priceless. New handlers that screw up and think they bit a child have a real "aha" moment. This is an exercise that is even appreciated by experienced handlers. We train this to hopefully avoid the exact situation that happened in that video. 

That video is one of a K-9 Handler's worst nightmares.


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## Hineni7

OK, so, the dog should ignore you though..... Never mind... See, I think in terms of SAR and scent articles.. You have to drop a dog on a track and hope and pray it is the suspects track and not someone else of interest... Still, I wouldn't think the dog should engage on you even in a bite suit unless you act threatening.. Is that right?


----------



## Slamdunc

Hineni7 said:


> OK, so, the dog should ignore you though..... Never mind... See, I think in terms of SAR and scent articles.. You have to drop a dog on a track and hope and pray it is the suspects track and not someone else of interest... *Still, I wouldn't think the dog should engage on you even in a bite suit unless you act threatening.. Is that right*?


We used a scent article in this exercise as well. 

No, our dogs are find and bite. A bite suit on an area search, building search or track is going to provoke our dogs to bite. We also train our dogs to engage passive subjects. I think in the past month handlers in my unit, tracked and found and bit 4 felony suspects. All were passive and hiding in bushes or places of concealment. 

You do not need to act threatening to get bit by a patrol dog. Not every felon acts threatening, many hide and you miss them or wait in a concealed position to ambush you. Training passive bites is an integral part of LE K-9 training. 

The bite suit in the scenario is used to provoke the dog to bite and the handler has to have enough control and presence of mind to recognize this and prevent the bite. The whole training scenario is a bit of a mud suck to show what can wrong on an urban / suburban track at night. You never know what is around the next corner or over the next fence. I can tell stories of guys waiting to ambush and Officer jumping over a fence chasing them or lying in wait for them to come around a corner. Or it could be a homeless guy sleeping behind a dumpster. When tracking wth our dogs we need to be very vigilant and check corners and "slice the pie." Leash control is paramount and I never let my dog round a corner with out me. I may be 6, 10 or 15' behind my dog and we will cut the corner at the same time. 

We do train scent discrimination tracking and our dogs will ignore people on tracks. This is great when starting from a vehicle or when you have a scent article. That is not always the case. There is always the chance of an innocent person bumping into one of our dogs, we need to be very careful.


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## Hineni7

OK, thanks. I understand why they are bite on passive subjects, but if in this scenario the dog is started with a scent article, shouldn't it ignore the subject in a bite suit as that isn't the odor it is started on? I do realize this is just a scenario and training exercise. Just curious where the focus is (other than teaching the inherent dangers of tracking in populated areas)? 

I could see the dog bypassing the bite suit unless suddenly engaged... If the dog is started on scent article, but if it isn't, I can see the engagement as well.. Again, my focus is on SAR, so obviously no bite , however, we do scent discrimination exercises to purposefully keep the dog 'clean' and true on the odor they are started on


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## Slamdunc

A patrol dog is not going to pass up a bite on a bite suit, or not get agitated at the smell and or sight of a bite suit. Especially when tracking. The dog is going to react and that is what I was counting on. That is why I designed the scenario the way I did, to provoke an aggressive response. 

Our dogs will ignore people on tracks and I will run tracks through a Home Depot for example. But, they will not ignore a bite suit. Our tracks routinely go across the front entrance of a busy grocery store or Mall. We can down our dogs and they will allow people to walk right by, ignoring them and waiting to get back to work on the target scent.


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## Hineni7

Thanks slamdunc :l) excellent explanation. Like I said, I view it from a different perspective and so the questions are usually from that view point as opposed to LE. Thanks again


----------



## Benjaminb

Slamdunc, Do you carry a body camera? If you do, are you allowed to release the footage to the public if you want to? If so I would love to see boru get a suspect down. He looks like awesome dog!


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## Apex1

From what I've learned I trust Boru iwill never fail in the line of duty.


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## Benjaminb

Apex1, you are definitely right!


----------



## deacon

Don't know about Slam but when I was active I had no authority to post any video, pictures, audio of any applications with my dogs. The only ones who would or would not release any information regarding any police matters was the public affairs officer with consent from the chief and sometimes the city attorney.


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## Benjaminb

Deacon, thanks for the info. And thank you for your service.


----------



## Slamdunc

Benjaminb said:


> Slamdunc, Do you carry a body camera? If you do, are you allowed to release the footage to the public if you want to? If so I would love to see boru get a suspect down. He looks like awesome dog!


Yes, we all wear body cameras and I have had one since about 2011. As Deacon mentioned, we are not allowed to post any body cam videos or even show them. Occasionally, I will post a training video that was not taken with my body camera. Most of the videos I post or have are labeled "private." LE K9 training is different than what most people would think. Many people think that "Lassie" would be a great Patrol dog. This is very far from the reality of the job.


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## Benjaminb

Slamdunc, Thanks for the Information about that. I guess it makes sense it cold be a privacy issue. Is Boru in full action yet?


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## Slamdunc

I'm running a Patrol School now for two other agencies. Boru is certified in Narcotics and Patrol work. Unfortunately, my time on the street is limited. He is with me at work everyday and I am ready to hop on a hot call should one come out.


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## Waterbuffalo

How do you teach K9's artistic tricks such as sitting in a beg position or to roll over?


----------



## Sunsilver

Waterbuffalo, are you serious? What would be the point??


----------



## Slamdunc

Waterbuffalo said:


> How do you teach K9's artistic tricks such as sitting in a beg position or to roll over?


We have a couple of handlers that teach their dogs tricks. We do a lot of demos and the kids love it. It is really good PR for the unit and the Dept. I taught my retired K9, Boomer to open car doors, which was a terrible trick.  I also taught Boomer to wear sunglasses and wave. One of our handlers has taught his dog to sit up on his hind legs and to roll over. 

There is a good book on teaching dog tricks, 101 Dog tricks by Kyra Sundance.

https://smile.amazon.com/101-Dog-Tr...=8-1&keywords=101+dog+tricks+by+kyra+sundance


----------



## Jenny720

Slamdunc said:


> Waterbuffalo said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you teach K9's artistic tricks such as sitting in a beg position or to roll over?
> 
> 
> 
> We have a couple of handlers that teach their dogs tricks. We do a lot of demos and the kids love it. It is really good PR for the unit and the Dept. I taught my retired K9, Boomer to open car doors, which was a terrible trick. /forum/images/smilies/wink.gif I also taught Boomer to wear sunglasses and wave. One of our handlers has taught his dog to sit up on his hind legs and to roll over.
> 
> There is a good book on teaching dog tricks, 101 Dog tricks by Kyra Sundance.
> 
> https://smile.amazon.com/101-Dog-Tr...=8-1&keywords=101+dog+tricks+by+kyra+sundance
Click to expand...

Love this!


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## Benjaminb

Slamdunc, do you have any pictures of Boomer wearing sunglasses? That's an awesome trick! LOL


----------



## Slamdunc

Benjaminb said:


> Slamdunc, do you have any pictures of Boomer wearing sunglasses? That's an awesome trick! LOL


There are tons of pictures of Boomer wearing sunglasses and waving. Here you go:


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## Benjaminb

He says ok, I got my sunglasses on and I am ready to go for a walk, or anything else you want to do!! He's a very handsome boy! Has Boru learned that trick yet?


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## Slamdunc

Benjaminb said:


> He says ok, I got my sunglasses on and I am ready to go for a walk, or anything else you want to do!! He's a very handsome boy! Has Boru learned that trick yet?


Thanks!

Boru doesn't do tricks. He is not a good demo dog. Boomer is fun and goofy with me, he loves when I laugh and really wants to please. Boru is a completely different dog. Boru has different motivations and is wired very differently.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Boru doesn't do tricks. He is not a good demo dog. Boomer is fun and goofy with me, he loves when I laugh and really wants to please. Boru is a completely different dog. Boru has different motivations and is wired very differently.


What motivates Boru?


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## Slamdunc

What motivates Boru? Searching, hunting, tracking or anything else that may lead to a bite or a fight. 

He does have super high prey and toy drive. As insane as his toy drive is his desire to bite is even higher.


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## Nigel

Slamdunc said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Boru doesn't do tricks. He is not a good demo dog. Boomer is fun and goofy with me, he loves when I laugh and really wants to please. Boru is a completely different dog. Boru has different motivations and is wired very differently.


When you say Boru is wired differently, is this a Dutchie thing in general or more to his particular breeding?


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## Waterbuffalo

How many bites does Boru have?


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## Slamdunc

Nigel said:


> When you say Boru is wired differently, is this a Dutchie thing in general or more to his particular breeding?


Well, there are traits that are DS traits for sure. He is an interesting dog, I do not know his lines nor his pedigree. He is a hard dog that is driven to work. Not that Boomer was not hard or highly driven, Boru is even higher in certain drives. 

Boru is an extremely intense dog and when he wants to go he gets very myopic.


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## Slamdunc

@Waterbuffalo, he has not had any street bites, everyone has given up so far. All of his bites so far were on previous handlers or people that mistakenly took him out of his kennel. Fortunately, he doesn't bite me.


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## Benjaminb

Slamdunc, When a Police K9 bites a suspect, how much damage does the dog do? Of course I think that if they are running from police than they had it coming and deserve it!


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## Slamdunc

It really depends on the suspect, what he is wearing, how hard he fights or assaults the K-9. It also depends on the dog. We train our dogs to hold one spot and push in. The dog will continually push in getting a deeper grip. This actually minimizes damage to the suspect. It also prevents the suspect from slipping a coat or jacket. 

All the dogs we select have genetically full, hard grips and will naturally hold onto one spot and push in. When you start with good genetics and enhance it through training, you get a dog that will bite and hold with less damage or injury to the suspect.


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## Benjaminb

He sounds like an awesome Dog!


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## Benjaminb

How's Boru been doing lately? Has he caught any criminals yet?


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## Nurse Bishop

I like what Slamdunk once said about the dog--Something about the criminal fighting and then he was wearing Boru like a fur coat.


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## Slamdunc

Boru has been doing well. We have had some nice apprehensions and have some nice drug arrests. 

I just finished instructing back to back Patrol and Narcotics detection schools. My time on the street has been limited because of the training. The week I finished the last patrol school Boru tested positive for Heart worm. He has been on preventative and has never missed a month. Heart worm is becoming a big thing here and neither Heartgard or Sentinel work very well. Boru is the 3rd dog in our unit to get Heart worm in the past 2 years. 

Because of the treatment he is out of work until October. Which really stinks because I was really excited to be on the street with him.


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## Jax08

Slamdunc said:


> neither Heartgard or Sentinel work very well. Boru is the 3rd dog in our unit to get Heart worm in the past 2 years.
> 
> Because of the treatment he is out of work until October. Which really stinks because I was really excited to be on the street with him.


That sucks. What about Interceptor? Is that still working?


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## Benjaminb

Slamdunc said:


> Boru has been doing well. We have had some nice apprehensions and have some nice drug arrests.
> 
> I just finished instructing back to back Patrol and Narcotics detection schools. My time on the street has been limited because of the training. The week I finished the last patrol school Boru tested positive for Heart worm. He has been on preventative and has never missed a month. Heart worm is becoming a big thing here and neither Heartgard or Sentinel work very well. Boru is the 3rd dog in our unit to get Heart worm in the past 2 years.
> 
> Because of the treatment he is out of work until October. Which really stinks because I was really excited to be on the street with him.


Oh no!!! Hope Boru recovers. I lost a dog to heartworms.


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## Nurse Bishop

Boru will be fine. 

Maybe you could mosquito net his outdoor run.


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## Slamdunc

Jax08 said:


> That sucks. What about Interceptor? Is that still working?


I've heard interceptor is the same chemicals or active ingredient. I need to look into it and do some more research. 

Boru will be fine, it is just a long tedious process. I've thought about putting netting around his kennel, but he spends a lot of time outside his kennel.


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## tim_s_adams

Slamdunc said:


> I've heard interceptor is the same chemicals or active ingredient. I need to look into it and do some more research.
> 
> Boru will be fine, it is just a long tedious process. I've thought about putting netting around his kennel, but he spends a lot of time outside his kennel.


Sorry to hear Boru tested positive! I'm sure he'll be fine, but it sucks to go through it. I was recently considering changing from Interceptor Plus to a more economical preventative, and found this web site which lists active ingredients for most treatments out there, so I thought I'd pass it on...

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/risks-of-heartworm-drugs/


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## Sabis mom

Slamdunc said:


> I've heard interceptor is the same chemicals or active ingredient. I need to look into it and do some more research.
> 
> Boru will be fine, it is just a long tedious process. I've thought about putting netting around his kennel, but he spends a lot of time outside his kennel.


Heartworm scares me. I am happy to read that you are confident in his recovery and I sincerely hope you find something that works. 
Just a thought, since I don't deal with HW here, I know there are mosquito sprays that are available for horses that are fantastic but I don't know that they would work for dogs. It might be worth checking.


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## Jenny720

I hope Boru recovers quickly! I know advantix plus keeps always mosquitos. I heard they are becoming resistant to all the insecticides sprayed also. I can see now why it is always good to have the heart worm test even if preventative is given all year round. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## deacon

Hey Slam how is Boru fairing? Is he over his illness yet? If so have you hit the street with him yet?


I just finished up a 7 week drug dog course and not even a week later one of the handlers resigned to take a job with a higher paying agency. This was going to be my last class of the year beside a dual trained team I am finishing up soon. Patrol is done just doing narc now.


The agency that had the handler leave called me pleading to train a new handler on the dog ASAP! There goes my time off for the rest of the year.


She should breeze the new handler right through the course however unless the handler is slow to learn. Meet him Friday.


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## Slamdunc

Hey Deacon,
Boru is 100% and back to work. He is doing well. I am starting to condition him after his 4 month lay off. He is a little out of shape, but wants to go at 100 mph regardless. 

Good luck with the new handler, I hope he is squared away and a sharp guy. 

Jim


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