# A Controversial Observation of the Modern GSD



## dzg (Apr 23, 2012)

Hello All,
This is my first post on this forum (though I have been on the site for almost 6 months now and spend hours a week reading the old posts).
This is also going to be a very controversial post and it may be my last on the forum (if I get banned) but I am going to share with you my observations, its more of a lament really.

When I was a young child we had two GSD's (though back then we called them Alsatians) as a family pet, they were rock solid, steady, calm, approachable, not nervous, they did not have extreme or intense drives (the only thing they were guilty of is chasing squirrels) they were totally trustable with people and children, heck as a little kid myself I used to maul them, try to ride them like a horse, yank on their ears and all other silly kid stuff and they would take it all and still keep wagging their tails. We did not spend hours everyday training them or taking them for 5km runs so that they were calm in the house (they were first and foremost pets, and thats it), if the property needed protecting they knew how to do it (its in their genes) they were not bred to exaggerate any particular drive or trait ... they were just regular good old GSD's. 
They looked like this dog (see attached pic). 

*Observations & Questions:*
1. It seems that the dogs I remember were most likely what is now considered "working lines" as thats what they looked like. Why is it that todays working lines are so nervy, intense and just downright unsuitable as family companion pets (its almost like they've been bred to be an extreme intense version of a GSD - only good for Schutzhund).

2. I see many working line breeders talk about "Active families" - which family takes their dogs out for 5km runs everyday? We're just trying to pay our bills, get the kids to class and mow the lawn (everything else is a bonus).

3. Does ANYONE breed for a normal old-school GSD anymore, the regular middle-of-the-road dog with no intense drives, with good temperament and rock-solid nerves?

I took the advice that is often given on this board that one should go and see dogs, well several trips to Schutzhund clubs and dog shows and these are my observations:

a) the Schutzhund dogs were crazy, yappy, couldn't sit still, so hyper and focused on the sleeve or the tracking that the owners could hardly control them even when on-leash ( strangely owners vwere very proud of this and considered that to indicate a dog with a strong work-ethic, many were congratulating the other on such a "correct' pup for the sport. Oh dear, it made me shudder!

b) the show dogs were nothing like what I remember my Alsatians to be, these were big, huge heavy boned, thick fat skulls (some looked more like bears), roach backs, very thick heavy fur coats (is this why GSD's are now known as King Shedders?).

4. Since when have overly protective dangerously reactive dogs become "cool"? At a schutzhund club I was told no sudden movements or noises as that was likely to "set-off" the dog, the owner seemed pleased by this, he said it was a desirable trait in a "personal protection" dog. Am I the only one who thinks this is a law-suit just waiting to happen? I wouldn't own a dog like that if I was paid!!! 

5. I have spoken to some working-line breeders who boast about how intense their dogs drives are, I have visited these dogs and I would never let one inside my house or trust it to be safe with a bunch of kids running about and doing what kids do. I have been told thats "prey drive" and normal for a GSD ... umm NO it isn't. But for some reason they are proud of this and see it as a requirement for their sport and for other work (e.g. police etc).

6. Then there is the DDR vs. Czech vs. West German lunacy. GSD's were meant to be biddable dogs, dogs that are clear headed and calm and stable, they were after all shepherds dogs (so they needed to not only listen to the shepherd but be safe around the sheep and protect them). Since when does DDR mean unbiddable hard crazy dogs? And why is it that the dogs I grew up with (who look like what we call DDR lines today) were nothing like that? And since when does West German mean weak ill-tempered dogs? 

7. The last straw was someone I met at the Schutzhund cub who was bragging about how difficult their puppy was to raise but how it was so worth it! I walked out at that point as the GSD's of old were superb dogs to raise, easy and intelligent, one of the reasons I thought the breed was favoured. (I have personal experience of 7 different GSD's growing up and none of them were difficult to raise).

I am sickened by what I have seen thus far. The breed no longer resembles the two dogs I grew up with. All I have seen are dogs that have been bred to the either end of the extreme, breeders who sit in either the Show-Line or Working-Line camps and then use that excuse to breed dogs that meet the demands of their "sport" (roach back bears for conformation) or (intense drive dogs unsuitable for anything other than the "sport" of Schutzhund). 

The GSD as a breed seems to have been corrupted to suit the tastes of either camp.

I started out wanting a GSD because of the wonderful memories of the ones I grew up with, yet I sit here today dejectedly and am appalled at what I have seen. I am basically ready to throw in the towel, I'm ready to go for a lab.

Where are the breeders who breed for that old-school, level-headed, calm, non-drivey dog whose first job is to hang-out with his family and everything else comes second?

I know I will be flamed on this forum by proponents of either camp, but I grew up with two GSD's that were the calmest, most amazing dogs to live with and unfortunately after months of research I have found no one who breeds dogs like this (lots of websites with great words and better pictures) but hwo to trust and who not to I can't visit them all .... the GSD is now no longer a pet or companion dog, it must be owned "for a purpose" .... its really really sad that the GSD I remember, the family companion GSD that could do it all, seems to no longer exist!


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

"Where are the breeders who breed for that old-school, level-headed, calm, non-drivey dog whose first job is to hang-out with his family and everything else comes second?"
I think those are now called pet quality and I think I have one.











opcorn:


----------



## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I don't think you should get flamed. These are the observations you made based on your personal experience. I hope some of the really knowledgeable folks on here can point you to some breeders who breed the kind of GSD you're looking for because I believe they do exist.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I'll just say that while you're experience thus far with working lines and dogs doing SchH most certainly is valid, and exists sometimes, it is not the norm. There are dogs like that, and people who want dogs like that. But there are plenty of working lines doing SchH who are nothing like you described and most certainly are well suited to family life.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

dzg said:


> 1. It seems that the dogs I remember were most likely what is now considered "working lines" as thats what they looked like. Why is it that todays working lines are so nervy, intense and just downright unsuitable as family companion pets (its almost like they've been bred to be an extreme intense version of a GSD - only good for Schutzhund).
> 
> 2. I see many working line breeders talk about "Active families" - which family takes their dogs out for 5km runs everyday? We're just trying to pay our bills, get the kids to class and mow the lawn (everything else is a bonus).


Delgado is from working lines, both grandfathers are German imports and he has a long line of Schutzhund in both lines, in fact his mother's line (both male and female) are all SchH3. His father is currently in Edmonton, AB finishing his certification for police work. One of his brother is also going to be starting his police foundation as well. 

He's a wonderful dog, medium drive and very trainable, he can be stubborn at times but snaps back to obedient quickly. He's only 12.5 weeks old and just a wonderful dog

I was a little worried going with working lines because I was timid as well about having a dog who didn't have a "off switch" but after talking with the breeder I decided to give them a try and was greatly impressed with all of her dogs I met, some were more boisterous then others but I told her exactly what I wanted and that's what I got

It's too bad you haven't had great experiences, keep looking and I hope you find the one you're looking for


----------



## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Part of the issue is that you came to perceive the GSD through the prism of _your_ two dogs. I grew up with GSDs as well. But we (this was in India) selected for extreme defense drives because in our culture/family, dogs were kept to be guard animals and lived outside. They served a purpose as estate guardians. So if I reminisced about _my_ "good ole GSDs", I would recall intimidating dogs with extreme defense drives and high suspicion. But that isn't every GSD or even what you would call within the standard, but it's what I grew up with. You grew up with a certain tempered GSD, but that doesn't mean it is adhering closely to the standard. There are all kinds of GSDs out there and you can find your preference. Not every pup in every litter will have extreme drives. Just find a reputable breeder and ask them for a low drive, social, family companion with solid nerves. I find it hard to believe there are absolutely none out there


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

You might want to Doc, I think he's probably got the kind of dogs you remember. (there are others but I think Doc is a good first choice. )If not I bet he could tell you who does. 

I think there are a lot of owners who are very happy with their dogs, I know I am. Versatile, easy to live with, smart, biddable. Then again, I'm almost 60, I remember when you could own a dog without having to study a breed for 20 years first.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think there are a lot of owners who are very happy with their dogs, I know I am. Versatile, easy to live with, smart, biddable. Then again, I'm almost 60, I remember when you could own a dog without having to study a breed for 20 years first.


:thumbup:


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Interesting first post... you should get a lot response. I agree with a lot of what you're saying minus the "non-drivey" and "family dog and that's it" comments. GSD's are working dogs afterall. That's why they were created, right? A lot of your other comments and observations are thing's I'd like out of a dog too.

Good luck finding your happy medium. The type of dogs you're looking for are out there. I wouldn't give up just yet.



Whiteshepherds said:


> You might want to Doc, I think he's probably got the kind of dogs you remember. (there are others but I think Doc is a good first choice. )If not I bet he could tell you who does.


I was thinking the same exact thing when I was reading the OP's post.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dzg - do not think that you are alone. Just this morning I was asked to view a potential breeding and the list that you gave above is pretty much what I said may come out of that breeding. 

adding this - by "your list" I don't mean the list of fond memories , I mean the list of high reactive types .

Paddy -- no they are not pet quality --- a dog can have lots of drive and not be hyper or hyper stimulated .


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

carmspack said:


> Paddy -- no they are not pet quality --- a dog can have lots of drive and not be hyper or hyper stimulated .


That's a very good point too. There's a big difference between drive and hyperactive.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

qbchottu said:


> Part of the issue is that you came to perceive the GSD through the prism of _your_ two dogs. I grew up with GSDs as well. But we (this was in India) selected for extreme defense drives because in our culture/family, dogs were kept to be guard animals and lived outside. They served a purpose as estate guardians. So if I reminisced about _my_ "good ole GSDs", I would recall intimidating dogs with extreme defense drives and high suspicion. But that isn't every GSD or even what you would call within the standard, but it's what I grew up with. You grew up with a certain tempered GSD, but that doesn't mean it is adhering closely to the standard. There are all kinds of GSDs out there and you can find your preference. Not every pup in every litter will have extreme drives. Just find a reputable breeder and ask them for a low drive, social, family companion with solid nerves. I find it hard to believe there are absolutely none out there


I was thinking this too, I think many of your points have been discussed many times on this forum, and many will agree with your observations. But the problem with the GSDs that you grew up with is that you don't know what exactly they were also, or how well they matched the standard as well. If you had grown up with these extremely driven dogs your whole life, you would've thought that was the norm and anything less was not worth half the dogs you had. Unfortunately depending on where you grew up your perception of the breed is extremely different from the next person. There are many people here that would consider your view incorrect in stating that a GSD should be a family dog first, and that they should be working dogs first.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

dzg said:


> 3. Does ANYONE breed for a normal old-school GSD anymore, the regular middle-of-the-road dog with no intense drives, with good temperament and rock-solid nerves?



No flaming here. For a first post I think it's darn near spot on! I think what you are talking about above is really hard to find. This is the kind of dog I like (yes even for Schutzhund, protection sports, and all the other stuff I do with my dogs). I'm not looking for "extreme" or "over the top" drives. I like medium to medium-high drives and medium to high thresholds. It seems that when I find this it's some kind of fluke. These are over generalizations I know, but having been spending considerable time around west German show line and working line dogs, I find that the show line camp lacks the depth of knowledge with regard to temperament because they are so focused on the dog in front of them, and the working line camp is too focused on the sport itself. As far as what you experienced with dogs being hyper, crazy, etc. I find that a lot of this is the owner and not always the dog. Again this is a generalization but I find that people who are REALLY into Schutzhund are too focused on the precision and the points and not on the big picture which includes playing to the individual dogs' strengths rather than training a dog to act like a robot. Anyway....*sigh*


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

dzg said:


> , they were rock solid, steady, calm, approachable, not nervous, they did not have extreme or intense drives (the only thing they were guilty of is chasing squirrels) they were totally trustable with people and children, heck as a little kid myself I used to *maul them, try to ride them like a horse, yank on their ears* and all other silly kid stuff and they would take it all and still keep wagging their tails.


If this is what you think a dog should be like and should have to deal with. . . please don't get a dog. 



dzg said:


> which family takes their dogs out for 5km runs everyday? We're just trying to pay our bills, get the kids to class and mow the lawn (everything else is a bonus).


Seriously. Don't get a dog. Get a stuffed toy. If you're doing all you can do, please don't add anything.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> That's a very good point too. There's a big difference between drive and hyperactive.


Pretty sure I referred to non-drivey with no mention of hyperactivity. JMHO
Don't want to derail.
qbchottu makes a good point about the OP coming from his own paradigm, which is fairly common.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> You grew up with a certain tempered GSD, but that doesn't mean it is adhering closely to the standard. There are all kinds of GSDs out there and you can find your preference. Not every pup in every litter will have extreme drives. Just find a reputable breeder and ask them for a low drive, social, family companion with solid nerves.


This is exactly what I was going to say. Remember the GSD was meant to be a working dog first and foremost. The dogs you had growing up were probably not "working line" dogs, though they probably were similar in appearance to what we call "working lines" today.

No flaming here! I can relate to your frustration, when I was first looking for a GSD I had a hard time finding something middle-of-the-road as a companion dog. I didn't want intense drives or anything hyperactive, nor did I want a fancy show dog. Just a good, stable, biddable, safe companion. When I began my search it was pre-internet, so I went out looking at a lot of dogs and a lot of litters. I saw slinking, shivering AKC show dogs, hard, edgy German-bred SchH dogs, and everything in between. I did eventually find what I was looking for, however. Don't give up! 

Even though GSDs are working dogs, and most reputable breeders want to preserve these traits, not every pup in every litter is going to have intense drives. You have to find a breeder you trust, who understands what you are looking for, and let them pick out a suitable puppy for you. It may take a while to find the right pup, but I have no doubt the right dog for you exists. In fact, I bet you can find one through this forum.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Emoore said:


> If this is what you think a dog should be like and should have to deal with. . . please don't get a dog.
> 
> 
> Seriously. Don't get a dog. Get a stuffed toy. If you're doing all you can do, please don't add anything.


There's that flame you were looking for! 

I guess I shouldn't have a dog either!

Yes, a GSD does require socializing, training, and exercise. As long as you are willing to provide these things and not just throw the dog in the backyard for the kids to pick on, poke at, and ride like a horse, I think you are probably OK.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I enjoyed reading your post, kind of wanted to read some more.

I do think when we remember situations, people, pets, etc. as kids we are looking through different eyes, in the case of family pets, perfect eyes. I also thought qbchottuhad had a great post.

I'm confident you can find what your looking for in a GSD, no Lab yet!


----------



## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

martemchik said:


> If you had grown up with these extremely driven dogs your whole life, you would've thought that was the norm and anything less was not worth half the dogs you had. Unfortunately depending on where you grew up your perception of the breed is extremely different from the next person.


Great point. I look at some really hard, sharp dogs and think "wow, we would have paid an arm and a leg for one of these back when!"



Freestep said:


> This is exactly what I was going to say. Remember the GSD was meant to be a working dog first and foremost. The dogs you had growing up were probably not "working line" dogs, though they probably were similar in appearance to what we call "working lines" today.


I agree. Many people like to tout their "old-fashioned, back-when" GSDs when their GSD is nothing like the standard or what someone else would call a GSD. Say I grew up with a lazy Australian Shepherd. I couldn't use that as a basis for Aussie temperament when I go hunting for a new one just because I grew up with a lazy Aussie.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"level-headed, calm, non-drivey dog whose first job is to hang-out with his family and everything else comes second?"
I think those are now called pet quality

The first part of this quote in quotations is from dzg , the OP, the answer "pet quality" is Paddy's.

You can have calm level headed family oriented GSD that are drivey -- but not hyper . Hope I cleared that up.
This is what I ask for from my dogs .
GSD need to be able to adapt . Even in the von Stephanitz books there are enough mentions of the GSD being very tolerant , forgiving , having a special fondness for children .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Think you need to keep looking around. The dogs you see at a Sch Trial working or getting ready to work protection probably are a bit crazed. 

Did you see them in the tracking stage? 

Many of our dogs can be a bit nuts AND also wonderful family pets. This post is going on right now and love the dog with the boy.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...81419-so-i-had-purchased-german-shepherd.html

Click that link above


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Many "modern" style GSD have containment issues -- like that phrase -- brought to my attention by a forum member who was told that her (carmspack) GSD does not have containment issues. That means she comes on to the field with committment and power , is controllable and self controlled . When it is done , over , it is done, over and finished . 

I love the video of Onyx Dragons cute little boy and the dog who has modified or adapted his behaviour to be gentle and considerate of the child . Good dog . See they are out there . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

well when i grew up my parents always had a shepherd in the house. i was 3 when star came home, i also thought she was a horse and tried to ride her  she didnt mind, she was such a wonderful dog. then came missey and the same" wonderful, both of these gals were asl. now im old and brought home a wgsl, and guess what, "she is wonderful too", gee im soooo lucky


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

carmspack said:


> You can have calm level headed family oriented GSD that are drivey -- but not hyper.


Yep - I have one!


----------



## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Emoore said:


> If this is what you think a dog should be like and should have to deal with. . . please don't get a dog.
> 
> 
> Seriously. Don't get a dog. Get a stuffed toy. If you're doing all you can do, please don't add anything.



Disagree with this!
It sounds like the op is looking for a dog to be an active part of the family. That in itself is a very worthy job and there are many GSD's out there who would fit and love such a life.


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> I'll just say that while you're experience thus far with working lines and dogs doing SchH most certainly is valid, and exists sometimes, it is not the norm. There are dogs like that, and people who want dogs like that. But there are plenty of working lines doing SchH who are nothing like you described and most certainly are well suited to family life.


Well said, Chris. 

Hunter, my West German working line, is a perfect example of a working line dog that is a calm, stable family dog first and a fantastic, driven working dog second. He is balanced, with an amazing on/off switch. He is my best friend and I take him everywhere/can do anything with him and we are currently training in Schutzhund. He is VERY biddable and has the right drives for me... he is not so intense that we can do nationals and get incredibly high scores.. but I have no doubt I can get him to an IPO 3 and be proud of his performance.



carmspack said:


> dzg - do not think that you are alone. Just this morning I was asked to view a potential breeding and the list that you gave above is pretty much what I said may come out of that breeding.
> 
> adding this - by "your list" I don't mean the list of fond memories , I mean the list of high reactive types .
> 
> ...


Absolutely true, Carmen. Hunter, again, is an example of lots of drive without being hyper or out of control.


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

dzg said:


> ...I used to maul them, try to ride them like a horse, yank on their ears and all other silly kid stuff ...


When we were kids, we were taught manners, respect, and how to treat animals. This kind of behavior was never tolerated in our house. Would our German Shepherds have tolerated it? Don't know, but we knew mom and dad did not and that was enough. We never found out.



dzg said:


> I see many working line breeders talk about "Active families" - which family takes their dogs out for 5km runs everyday? We're just trying to pay our bills, get the kids to class and mow the lawn (everything else is a bonus).


Are you kidding? Seriously? 5km, 3.5 miles? We did not have tv, computers, nor all these other activities kids have today. We literally walked a mile to school and back. My best friend lived a mile away and we would walk back and forth to each others houses, sometimes several times a day. We easily walked at least 5 miles on a school day and upwards of 10 miles on a day off. We had no cars or money. We would walk 3-5 miles to various parks and other places of interest just for something to do. The dogs were all off leash, who knows how many miles those dogs walked/run with us. All I know is when we got where we were going, those dogs were tired, and so were we. And after a short rest, we walked back home.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Falkosmom said:


> When we were kids, we were taught manners, respect, and how to treat animals. This kind of behavior was never tolerated in our house. Would our German Shepherds have tolerated it? Don't know, but we knew mom and dad did not and that was enough. We never found out.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? Seriously? 5km, 3.5 miles? We did not have tv, computers, nor all these other activities kids have today. We literally walked a mile to school and back. My best friend lived a mile away and we would walk back and forth to each others houses, sometimes several times a day. We easily walked at least 5 miles on a school day and upwards of 10 miles on a day off. We had no cars or money. We would walk 3-5 miles to various parks and other places of interest just for something to do. The dogs were all off leash, who knows how many miles those dogs walked/run with us. All I know is when we got where we were going, those dogs were tired, and so were we. And after a short rest, we walked back home.


Thank you.

Dogs of the 50's and 60's generally had physically active kids to play with because there were no video games. They weren't locked in a crate or stuck out in the yard all day, because the lady of the house generally stayed home. The reason dogs back then were more like the working line dogs of today is because dogs back then had jobs, even if the "job" was hanging out with Mom and running the neighborhood with the kids. Now adog's biggest job is to not bother people while they're watching _Idol _or playing _World of Warcraft. _


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Falkosmom said:


> When we were kids, we were taught manners, respect, and how to treat animals. This kind of behavior was never tolerated in our house. Would our German Shepherds have tolerated it? Don't know, but we knew mom and dad did not and that was enough. We never found out.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? Seriously? 5km, 3.5 miles? We did not have tv, computers, nor all these other activities kids have today. We literally walked a mile to school and back. My best friend lived a mile away and we would walk back and forth to each others houses, sometimes several times a day. We easily walked at least 5 miles on a school day and upwards of 10 miles on a day off. We had no cars or money. We would walk 3-5 miles to various parks and other places of interest just for something to do. The dogs were all off leash, who knows how many miles those dogs walked/run with us. All I know is when we got where we were going, those dogs were tired, and so were we. And after a short rest, we walked back home.


Same for us,we played in the woods, rode the horses with the dogs tagging along, or were down at the lake and all the neighborhood dogs were loose, got along and no oops litters(this was before s/n was the norm). Everyone looked out for each other and that included the dogs. For some reason I don't remember the dogs ever having bad nerves, though our male dog Jojo(he was found as a stray) was a bit dog aggressive, but he was intact, so probably the reason. 
My mom did get him neutered shortly after we adopted him, because he would not stick around like the others.


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Well, I don't know where you are, OP, but you are welcome to come to our Schutzhund club any time. You will see all the dogs hanging out together (OFF LEASH!) before practice. The humans will be hanging out, catching up, and the dogs do the same. We do keep a close eye, but they are expected to behave and they do. You can pet any dog at our club (well almost, there are a couple that slobber some so you may want to skip those ).
Of our "regular" members (those that come week in, week out) we have 1 Beauceron, 2 Rottweilers, 2 mixes and 11 GSDs (3 are showline, 8 are working line). 
There are usually at least 3-4 kids around (from toddlers to teenagers) roaming about, a few who are handlers as well. 

The one thing I will take issue with is the idea that a dog (any dog) should tolerate being mauled and abused by kids. I don't get that. I mean my kids (when they were little) were taught in no uncertain terms that the dogs (or the cats or the chickens for that matter) were living, feeling creatures and should be treated kindly and with respect. Now if a child were to pull a tail or fall on a dog, then ok, that happens and no dog should snap because of it, but being a punching bag as a matter of course is not something I would ever allow or tolerate. The kids here are also taught that they are not allowed to "play train" the dogs. 
All of the dogs in our club are family companions first and foremost. There is one girl in the club who is an avid runner, so her dog probably does run 5k multiple times a week, but the rest hang out at home except for training time, which on non club days is probably a 30 minute play/train session per day.


----------



## dzg (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback, I was actually cringing when I started to read the replies, but I am amazed that there are others who feel the same way.

There have been posts indicating that there are breeders who breed the kind of GSD that I'd like, could you please pm me any suggestions of breeders to look into.

To the flamers - you're right I was a silly child who didn't know how to behave properly with my dog (but I was a kid and I can admit to not being perfect) .... luckily I had two GSD's that tolerated my antics and understood I meant no harm, I came through 14 years living with them without a bite or a scratch. Says alot about those dogs.

p.s. I was NEVER suggesting/condoning a child should abuse a dog - thats taking my words out-of-context.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

does putting the dog into men's striped flannel pyjama's count as mauling ?

We headed for the creek and had little bonfires to roast our marshmallows , while the dog walked up and down the creek catching crayfish - sometimes unintentionally . 

Before school , the dog was hitched up to the flyer wagon when I covered my younger brothers early morning newspaper route (Globe and Mail) -- 

When I had errands to run to get a jug of milk , in heavy glass bottles no less, the dog would carry home the paper bag , folded just so , with the loaf of bread .

When we went to the bush to shake the branches loaded with black staining berries , the dog would never betray our secret -- although the blue lips and stained tops and twigs in our hair did. 

We were always safe . This dog , my Asta , was a ticket to freedom . Absolutely stable and sound , and real , although one of the gang when it came to us kids playing like some wild tribe till late in the summer days , that same dog stopped an intruder who decided to enter our house . Launched herself from the top of the stair case , knocked him backward and had him up against the wall .

Police were involved and dog had to be put on 10 day house quarantine -- but I tell you all the neighbours brought treats for her - boiled eggs, a ham joint , a new brush . 

Those are some of my memories . 

And then I grew out of my family home , itching to start young independant life -- leaving Asta at home for the other kids --- It took me years , over a decade to find something even close to that grey GSD .

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

dzg said:


> Thanks for the feedback, I was actually cringing when I started to read the replies, but I am amazed that there are others who feel the same way.
> 
> There have been posts indicating that there are breeders who breed the kind of GSD that I'd like, could you please pm me any suggestions of breeders to look into.
> 
> ...


I'm not old enough to go back to the 60's, but we had a few shepherd mixes when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's and they were laid back house pets that had a back yard and were happy and survived with that. We lived in the city so walking the dogs off leash was breaking the law and the yard was big enough for them to play in. All the dogs lived 13 plus years As far as the German Shepherd Club, I've had the same experience, not good The dogs were barking, lunging, and muzzled. I really have no desire for my dog to be like that and I am real hesitant to go back. I'm not big on the prong collar and that is required there..I don't need a prong with my dog, she has trained fine on a flat. I don't take my dog running, most of her exercise is on the weekends when I'm off work. And even then she does not require much if any. She is not destructive and she enjoys going for walks, which we use for training and socialization. She is calm enough to take wherever I go and that works to her advantage She does remind me of a shepherd from the old days You can find one that fits what your looking for...I did


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I think family pets in the old days had a much better quality of life - I know ours did. No leash laws -plenty of freedom - comfy bed- stay at home moms - Vets and food - what more could they want? 

The dogs of today are nowhere near as fortunate. How many are left alone for 8-10 hours a day, disposed of because they have seperation anxiety and rip the house up, only go on leashed walks because they have so much pent up energy and will take off running if not leashed. No wonder they have so many behaviour problems. 

I've got to admit it worries me how many people do the protection training nowadays. I'm not saying the posters on here - because people who take the trouble to do things the right way are not the kind of people I'm talking about. But how many go on to use there dogs as weapons, or as means to intimidate?
_____________
Sue


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I can certainly agree with alot of what the OP said.

I will say, there ARE dogs out there that are just what your looking for altho I will admit, I see alot of changes in the gsd of today.

I also don't know where your located, maybe if you put your general location one can direct you to breeder(s) to go check out.

You don't necessarily have to go to schutzund trials/training to check out dogs, don't limit yourself to that (but I would go check out bocrons!!!) go to an obedience match/trial, go to agility trial/match.

There ARE good dogs out there, you just have to know where to look


----------



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

carmspack said:


> You can have calm level headed family oriented GSD that are drivey -- but not hyper .


Agreed! I don't do as well with hyper - drive (as in, focus) I can handle though. Both Kastle and Ike are drivey but not hyper. Heck, my Corgi is drivey but not hyper 



Falkosmom said:


> When we were kids, we were taught manners, respect, and how to treat animals. This kind of behavior was never tolerated in our house.


This is how I was raised. In the 80's/90's.



Emoore said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Dogs of the 50's and 60's generally had physically active kids to play with because there were no video games. They weren't locked in a crate or stuck out in the yard all day, because the lady of the house generally stayed home. The reason dogs back then were more like the working line dogs of today is because dogs back then had jobs, even if the "job" was hanging out with Mom and running the neighborhood with the kids. Now adog's biggest job is to not bother people while they're watching _Idol _or playing _World of Warcraft. _


During summer vacation, my brother and I were allowed 30 min of TV time or a movie, otherwise, we were expected to do chores every day and then play outside. I had a Lab back then and we did EVERYTHING together. Hiked, walked, built forts, took care of the horses and we also played hide-and-seek tag with my brother. Loads of activity - we had TV and internet when I was a bit older, did not matter - we were to be outside, being active and enjoying the summer weather, period.



bocron said:


> The one thing I will take issue with is the idea that a dog (any dog) should tolerate being mauled and abused by kids. I don't get that. I mean my kids (when they were little) were taught in no uncertain terms that the dogs (or the cats or the chickens for that matter) were living, feeling creatures and should be treated kindly and with respect. Now if a child were to pull a tail or fall on a dog, then ok, that happens and no dog should snap because of it, but being a punching bag as a matter of course is not something I would ever allow or tolerate. The kids here are also taught that they are not allowed to "play train" the dogs.


Agreed.


----------



## Scarlettsmom (Jul 12, 2011)

My husband grew up with a GSD. He always wanted a large, "driven", focused, protective male. We got a large, very velcro, female... 

When I read the OP and the replies, I kept thinking that there are different temperments/drives for different folks. How great it is that we can ALL have just the GSD for our lives/desires/families/needs/wants. Definitely not a one-size-fits-all breed. 

I know that when I look over the topics, that there are many that I don't read. Since Schultzhund isn't one of our interests, those posts are not ones I read. I do really like that there is a broad spectrum of interests and people on here that can answer questions and give good insight into the many facets of GSD ownership and abilities.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

dzg said:


> *To the flamers* - you're right I was a silly child who didn't know how to behave properly with my dog (but I was a kid and I can admit to not being perfect) .... luckily I had two GSD's that tolerated my antics and understood I meant no harm, I came through 14 years living with them without a bite or a scratch. Says alot about those dogs.


 You have not been flamed. You have been disagreed with. This forum is working on being kinder and more welcoming, so you may not ever get flamed, but I can promise you this wasn't it. . . .lol



dzg said:


> p.s. I was NEVER suggesting/condoning a child should abuse a dog - thats taking my words out-of-context.


We have only the context you give us to go on.


----------



## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

Emoore said:


> If this is what you think a dog should be like and should have to deal with. . . please don't get a dog.
> Seriously. Don't get a dog. Get a stuffed toy. If you're doing all you can do, please don't add anything.


I doubt that this was an everyday occurance or that OP expects her children to do this to a dog. Children can be rough without knowing or meaning it, thus this is a concern when looking for a dog. The dog may go through its entire life without ever having this done, but just in case a child does do something, you don't want a dog that will react and bite a child. My mother has pictures of Teddy and her old collie Whisper dressed up in dresses, with necklaces and high heels. Children can do strange things when you turn your back. I myself have tripped and reflexively reached out and grabbed Angus or Freyja on my way down, it wasn't intentional and I felt horrible, but accidents do happen. I find OP's concerns quite valid. The GSD should be a mix of all traits and not bred solely for one characteristic. I'm worried if the diachiomomy of the breeding standard persists we may further ruin the breed we all love.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Caitydid255 said:


> I doubt that this was an everyday occurance or that OP expects her children to do this to a dog. .


You would be surprised. I know of many people who have had a dog put down for even growling because the dog was expected to allow children to pull his ears/tail, pinch/kick/jump on, tease with food - the list goes on and on. 
I would say that this attitude is much more common than people who believe in teaching children to respect dogs.


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

carmspack said:


> does putting the dog into men's striped flannel pyjama's count as mauling ?
> We headed for the creek and had little bonfires to roast our marshmallows , while the dog walked up and down the creek catching crayfish - sometimes unintentionally .
> Before school , the dog was hitched up to the flyer wagon when I covered my younger brothers early morning newspaper route (Globe and Mail) --
> When I had errands to run to get a jug of milk , in heavy glass bottles no less, the dog would carry home the paper bag , folded just so , with the loaf of bread .
> ...


enjoyed reading your memories of your dog and growing up...I got in trouble a few times for the blue lips and stained fingers..(only berries were at my neighbors..)


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Dainerra said:


> You would be surprised. I know of many people who have had a dog put down for even growling because the dog was expected to allow children to pull his ears/tail, pinch/kick/jump on, tease with food - the list goes on and on.
> I would say that this attitude is much more common than people who believe in teaching children to respect dogs.


This has been my experience as well. I also fail to see how you'd accidentally ride a dog like a horse.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Emoore said:


> This has been my experience as well. I also fail to see how you'd accidentally ride a dog like a horse.


I've actually seen ADULTS walk up to a large dog they've never met before and climb onto the dog like it was a horse! Even bouncing up and down, waving their arm like a cowboy.  So, yes, I give advice to the uninformed unless I know that the poster knows proper dog etiquette


----------



## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

My kids try to "maul" my dog every day. They are three and four and have a SHORT attention span. This doesn't mean I let them do anything to the dog, but kids need to be TAUGHT and you can't teach them unless they DO it and you show them the correct way to do it. I don't want a dog that isn't going to tolerate a few seconds of being messed with before I can walk across the room and correct my child.

Heck, my GSD taught my oldest son how to walk. He pulled all over her and she didn't give to rats butts about it. He'd pull up on her and would walk with him, if he fell down she'd circle around, lay down, let him get a good hold and off they go again.

I get that some parents let their kids do whatever, but this is not a kid/dog issue, this is a PARENT issue.

I think plenty of things are being taken out of context in regards to the kids/dogs issue and common sense and logic is being thrown aside. I get it though, its easier to just think you know instead of stopping and asking first.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> I've actually seen ADULTS walk up to a large dog they've never met before and climb onto the dog like it was a horse! Even bouncing up and down, waving their arm like a cowboy.  So, yes, I give advice to the uninformed unless I know that the poster knows proper dog etiquette


Yes, I've had friends straddle my 130 lb. Akbash Dog like that. Fortunately, he's the type that just digs the attention and doesn't take offense. In his former home he had two young boys that used to climb all over him and use his back as a slide, and I've also seen young goats use him as a trampoline. Never seen him get cross about it.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I understand and agree with everyone's point about the appropiate way for children to act around dogs but I guess don't understand out of everything the OP wrote those few sentences are getting so much attention.


----------



## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Courtney said:


> I understand and agree with everyone's point about the appropiate way for children to act around dogs but I guess don't understand out of everything the OP wrote those few sentences are getting so much attention.



I think, because those few sentences in and of itself, are not reasons to tell someone to not get a dog. Its not hard to stop, think and ask for more clarification.

As a parent myself I understand where they are coming from on the child/dog issue. I don't want a dog that is going to turn and snap at my kids just because they touch him in some way. It's not going to kill the dog to be tolerable for a minute, and if it does, then IMO the dog isn't that stable to begin with. I also see lots of people who jump to that conclusion, that because a parent wants a dog that's tolerable/stable, their kids are going to do some kind of damage to the dog.

To the OP: Keep looking, there are good stable family GSDs out there. There are plenty on this board. Sometimes you just have to keep looking and keep your options open. If you haven't looked into it already, try looking into rescuing. There are lots of good dogs needing home.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> I think, because those few sentences in and of itself, are not reasons to tell someone to not get a dog. Its not hard to stop, think and ask for more clarification.
> 
> As a parent myself I understand where they are coming from on the child/dog issue. I don't want a dog that is going to turn and snap at my kids just because they touch him in some way. It's not going to kill the dog to be tolerable for a minute, and if it does, then IMO the dog isn't that stable to begin with. I also see lots of people who jump to that conclusion, that because a parent wants a dog that's tolerable/stable, their kids are going to do some kind of damage to the dog.
> 
> To the OP: Keep looking, there are good stable family GSDs out there. There are plenty on this board. Sometimes you just have to keep looking and keep your options open. If you haven't looked into it already, try looking into rescuing. There are lots of good dogs needing home.


I agree. My husbands buddy stopped by with his little boy, 4 or 5 yrs old? A few weeks ago and Rusty was laying down while the little boy was petting him, he lost his footing and accidently stepped on his paw. Rusty got up and started licking his face. That was a proud moment for me because some dogs may have snapped/quick reaction.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

To the OP
I dont have kids but I hope my next GSD will be able to handle children. I was raised in the 60's and the seventies I climbed into Rex my stepbrother's GSDs box and laid next to him.I then turned to hugged on, tried to dress and in general wanted Prince , black/silver GSD to be my playmate/wolf. I dont think any dog should tolerate being treated badly but kids fall on ,step on and in general have what could be annoying behavior. I believe based on the stuff Ive read here that those GSD's exist. I would also check out GSD rescues. In Stephanwitz book there is a picture of two GSDs playing ringaround the roses including we all fall down. He wanted the GSD to have a fondness for children and talked almost as much about their love and care of humans as he did their protection side. I also came from a family that if i said the dog growled at me they would say what did you do first.i think its a good way to go.Hope you find what you are looking for.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

It's pretty strange how some of the same people who think the breed should be courageous, brave and stable, freak out if they think some kid might stick his fingers in the dogs nose. (kids the dog knows, not strangers)

Toddler + dog = fingers in the dogs nose at least once. That's almost a given. It's not mauling...it's life.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't think anyone is going to argue with that. It was just the wording of the post that sounded more like J.Q. Public who expects that the dog should tolerate any level on infinite abuse from the children. 
Just because a dog is stable and understanding to an occasional poke or prod doesn't mean that they should have to live with being tortured and mauled daily. Again, since there is no way to know a poster's true experience and background, sometimes advice has to be geared toward the least common denominator. Not just for the OP, but for any newcomers who might come across the thread in the future.

As I said, I would say that a large portion of the general public (which equals the majority of dog owners) see no problem with letting children hit the dog, kick the dog, jump on the dog, steal its food, poke it in the eye, and basically not give the poor animal a moments peace. For the dog to expect anything else, in their opinion, means that the dog is vicious and needs to be destroyed. These kind of people are, sadly, the norm in dog ownership, not the exception.


----------



## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> I don't think anyone is going to argue with that. It was just the wording of the post that sounded more like J.Q. Public who expects that the dog should tolerate any level on infinite abuse from the children.
> Just because a dog is stable and understanding to an occasional poke or prod doesn't mean that they should have to live with being tortured and mauled daily. Again, since there is no way to know a poster's true experience and background, sometimes advice has to be geared toward the least common denominator. Not just for the OP, but for any newcomers who might come across the thread in the future.


This is a good idea, we do want to provide information for those beyond the OP who may come across this. Many people really are that clueless, and that's not saying anything bad about them, they just haven't learned as much as many of us here on the forum. The best thing we can do is make sure that better info is out there for them to find.



> As I said, I would say that a large portion of the general public (which equals the majority of dog owners) see no problem with letting children hit the dog, kick the dog, jump on the dog, steal its food, poke it in the eye, and basically not give the poor animal a moments peace. For the dog to expect anything else, in their opinion, means that the dog is vicious and needs to be destroyed. These kind of people are, sadly, the norm in dog ownership, not the exception.


While I do expect my dogs to put up with some messing around, I was also pretty strict on teaching my children how to behave around animals. From the time they were very young, I would try to show them how to be gentle and calm with animals, and they usually were. That's not to say that they never 'mauled' our dogs, because they kinda did, but since I paid attention, I was able to stop it before it ever hurt the dogs. And our dogs were generally extremely tolerant, which was great. 

Now that the kids are close to grown, they are really good with animals, and I'm proud that they are involved in rescue and such as well. Plus, they often teach friends about how to do things with animals, and that makes me kinda happy.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> As I said, I would say that a large portion of the general public (which equals the majority of dog owners) see no problem with letting children hit the dog, kick the dog, jump on the dog, steal its food, poke it in the eye, and basically not give the poor animal a moments peace. For the dog to expect anything else, in their opinion, means that the dog is vicious and needs to be destroyed. These kind of people are, sadly, the norm in dog ownership, not the exception.


Based on what? 

In our world there is abuse of children, women, elderly, disabled, animals, etc... etc... etc...

I have not witnessed what you are saying on any regular basis. Of course it happens.

Most of the families where I live have dogs and if anything they are spoiled, pampered and live better lives than much of the earths population of humans.

Speaking of the past, we didn't spend a fortune on crates, training. food, toys, dog sports.

Dogs lived with us and ran loose with children. They ate what we could afford along with table scraps. They rarely bit anyone because they were loose and knew everbody around the neighborhood.

Was it perfect? No. They got sick because they didn't have vaccines or were not used the way they are now. Dogs got Parvo and Distemper often and died from it. Dogs were run over regularly.

I have never met a person who had their dog put down because the kids couldn't maul it whenever the pleased.

People get rid of dogs for stupid reasons but the above mentioned I have never heard of.

We all view through our own lenses.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> I have never met a person who had their dog put down because the kids couldn't maul it whenever the pleased.
> 
> People get rid of dogs for stupid reasons but the above mentioned I have never heard of.
> 
> *We all view through our own lenses*.


Indeed. I personally have had 3 or 4 foster dogs in the 8 to 18-month range, where the stated reason for surrender at the shelter was "he scratched my kid" or "he keeps knocking over the baby." I know a woman who dumped her dog at the county AS because the dog air-snapped at a kid who was pulling on the dog's ear. 

Recently I was walking my dogs in the neighborhood and saw some kids chasing a boxer around a yard. The boxer was obviously frightened and not having fun. One kid got the dog cornered and tackled him, landing hard on the dog's hindquarters. The dog screamed and went down. The adults laughed and laughed. 

Freakin' disturbing.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> As I said, I would say that a large portion of the general public (which equals the majority of dog owners) see no problem with letting children hit the dog, kick the dog, jump on the dog, steal its food, poke it in the eye, and basically not give the poor animal a moments peace. For the dog to expect anything else, in their opinion, means that the dog is vicious and needs to be destroyed. These kind of people are, sadly, the norm in dog ownership, not the exception.


I disagree. I am sure those people exist, but to say it's the "norm" or even a "majority" of people who allow their children to torture the family dog, is overstating things. Most parents would expect the dog to tolerate a certain amount of toddleresque poking and prodding, and would expect the dog not to bite a toddler for, say, tripping and falling on top of the dog, but that's a far cry from allowing a child to maul and torture the dog.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Indeed. I personally have had 3 or 4 foster dogs in the 8 to 18-month range, where the stated reason for surrender at the shelter was "he scratched my kid" or "he keeps knocking over the baby." I know a woman who dumped her dog at the county AS because the dog air-snapped at a kid who was pulling on the dog's ear.
> 
> Recently I was walking my dogs in the neighborhood and saw some kids chasing a boxer around a yard. The boxer was obviously frightened and not having fun. One kid got the dog cornered and tackled him, landing hard on the dog's hindquarters. The dog screamed and went down. The adults laughed and laughed.
> 
> Freakin' disturbing.


I didn't say it does not happen. 

Being elitist (not you emoore) to the point of implying that frequently putting dogs down because the kids can't torment them is a lot different than giving them up to shelters for stupid reasons.
Our county shelters and rescues are full most of the time with dogs dumped for reasons like you mentioned but considering how many dogs there are in the county it is a small percentage.
Too many I agree.
Rescue people have a special set of lenses. They see so many bad things that sometimes I think they forget about the millions of pampered dogs in this Country. 

Like I said people are starving all over the world and we argue about whether our $75 dollar bag of kibble is better than raw.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty about what they spend on their dogs but I think it is easy to lose prespective at times.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I see it every day when I look at my front door. I hear about it every time I go to work and listen to co-workers describe their pets at home. I hear the same stories when I go to dog functions and we talk about things we have seen happen in our neighborhoods. I talk with my vet about the things that he has seen and dogs that he has been asked to euthanize for "vicious" behavior. 




 is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The dog is showing a lot of calming signals, but expected to just sit there and be pulled on by the baby. It's not bad, but it's not good either. But, this is how people expect dogs to be and don't think of "oh the dog might not like it"
As I've said, I've had complete strangers come up and grab my dogs by the ears, cheeks, or neck and man-handle them. If they expect a stranger's dog to accept that, how do they treat their own dog at home?


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jack's Dad said:


> I didn't say it does not happen.
> 
> Being elitist (not you emoore) to the point of implying that frequently putting dogs down because the kids can't torment them is a lot different than giving them up to shelters for stupid reasons.
> Our county shelters and rescues are full most of the time with dogs dumped for reasons like you mentioned but considering how many dogs there are in the county it is a small percentage.
> .


my vet has a large practice in a rural county. He averages 7-8 dogs a month being euthanized because they "snapped at the kids" I've seen those kids and how they treat the dog - I've been in the clinic when they bring the dog in to be put to sleep. Even at that moment, the kids are poking the dog, teasing him, kicking him to try to get him to play. 
Not a lot? Maybe in the grand scheme of things, no. 
But that is a small set - those who put the dog down at ONE vet's office. Not counting those who just shoot the dog, those who dump the dog at the pound, have a different vet, or just leave the dog chained in the back yard.

Even more if you count those who would "deal with the dog's issues" but don't see an issue with their children's treatment of the dog.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

this in a old story, but sadly, this is the type of people we have in public

Yes, most people ARE smarter than this woman, otherwise the human race would be extinct. But, it's not uncommon for people to have zero knowledge of dogs, their behavior, how to train them, or anything other than buy a puppy and it will magically grow up into a perfectly trained dog
Mother shut boy in basement to protect him from pit bull / 12-year-old was killed by family dog; owner sees death as tragic accident but defends the breed as loving pets | Full Page

ETA: only 2 things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.


----------



## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

With all due respect, just because some people see it all the time still doesn't mean that its something that happens ALL the time. I would have to agree with Jack

Here we have,

Two people who see it all the time
Two people who rarely see it

hmmmmm

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the video. The only difference is I would also be correcting the baby and gently telling/showing him how to pet the dog nicely. A five month old isn't going to get it off the bat though and is still going to pull at the ears and such. I want a dog that's going to sit there like that and take it. (ETA: Before anyone starts freaking out and jumping to conclusions, no, I don't mean "take it" even after the dog can't "take it" anymore without any breaks)The other option is to keep them separated and then the baby never learns anything. I don't see that going over so well either.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

it was just an example from a quick youtube search. it goes along with Emoore's observations that adults think it is "cute" and "funny" when kids do things like this to the dog.
It IS necessary to teach the kids. The problem is, most people don't see anything wrong with what their kids are doing. It's almost identical to the owners who think it is cute when their small dog growls and attacks a big dog yet get upset if the big dog growls back


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I got taught by the dog. I don't remember this but when I was 3, my grandma was babysitting me (while my bother was being born) and dog-sitting for my uncle's GSD. He bit me around my eye and left punctures above and below the eye. I don't remember the incident but the dog was not put down or reprimanded and I don't ever remember the urge to get in a dog's face after that!


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

_spoke with the chiro got her in for wed the 2 it isn't as spendy as i thought or at least for this visit..75 bucks hopefully this takes care of the problem..i love my girl she and rascal (my australian shepherd) are totally my babies_*

This just came up on another thread.

*_No offense to the person who posted this and I'm not against it but this is an example of what I am seeing more of. Hardly mis-treatment of our dogs.

Back in the days that the OP of this thread is talking about this type of treatments were unheard of. Many now are elevating our dogs to the status of humans and some prefer them to humans.
Yes there are different pictures.
_


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> .
> 
> Back in the days that the OP of this thread is talking about this type of treatments were unheard of. Many now are elevating our dogs to the status of humans and some prefer them to humans.
> Yes there are different pictures.
> [/COLOR][/I]


Yes. Just like some people buy their kids BMWs and some molest them and lock them in the basement with no food. Some people take the best care possible of their elderly parents and some forget to clean and feed them. Some people treat their spouses like gold and some people murder them.


I try not to assume a person is going to do either, but when a person makes a comment like the one in the OP, it does necessitate clarification.


----------



## dzg (Apr 23, 2012)

Firstly, thanks to all for your feedback and comments. 

In my entire post it seems one sentence, in fact one word, has got a disporportionate amount of attention. Which is really unfortunate.

My usage of the word "mauling" was probably incorrect, it gave the wrong impression, and I never used the words "hit" "kick" "abuse" "torture" "poke in the eye" "tackled" etc in my post. These are additions by subsequent posters.

Here are examples of my childish mauling:
So I was 7 or 8 and I tried to sit on my GSD's back (maybe for a grand total of 5 seconds), I also used to like playing pretend doctor and dentist (my GSD's were usually my patients, they seemed ok with the hands on physicals and stupidly I even remember having my fingers in their mouths - had to check for cavities! No they never got a free toothbrush after the check-up), cowboys and indians were also fun games and the GSD's would run around with a bunch of kids yelling and hollering without freaking out (often the dogs had feather head-dresses too - didn't inform the actors union), I dressed up my dogs (fashion police would have ticketed us), my sis even tried putting some lipstick on them (pretty sure it was not hypo-allergenic) and yes we even tried harnessing them to my small plastic cart to try them out for hauling (didn;t inform the union or pay then a decent wage either - they were also summarily fired from the position after being found unsuitable - no severance pay neither), I stepped on their paws more times than I can remember (by mistake not on purpose) and they never snapped or growled at me (my eternal gratitiude).

I probably did lots of other stuff I can't remember, but I never abused my dogs. Is that enough context for the SPCA members? 

And if I was interested in abusing dogs do you think I would be a member of this forum and have taken months to research and go out there and meet dogs and breeders?? Really? Is that the general profile of animal abusers? 

Finally, children will be children and sometimes they will step on a paw or grab a handful of fur (inadvertently), I don't think its a crime to want a dog that can handle that and not snap.

I read a testimonial on a breeders website whereby an owner gushed about how when they were closing the sofa-bed the dogs paw got clipped and the dog launched itself at the sofa arm and gave it a good hard bite ... the positive comment was about how "full" the bite was, and how the owner was looking forward to titling the dog in Sch. That scares me ... I wouldn't want a dog like that anywhere near my family or near me!!

Thanks to those of you who pm'd me some breeders. It was also heart-warming to read about others childhood memories and to realise that there is something universal about a child and a dog (no matter where in the world we grew up). 

p.s. some of you have asked - I grew up in the 1970's. My GSD's were acquired in the mid-1970's and they were acquired from a BYB, I know they were cheap as my parents didn't have $$ to spend on dogs and I have no idea what line they were, maybe they were show lines or maybe working, my parents certainly had no clue about different lines or pedigrees (to this day my Mom calls them Alsatians and she still remembers them fondly as the best dogs, in fact she says the general wisdom of the time was that if you have young kids you got a GSD as they were smart dogs).


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

DZG Your "alsatians" sound wonderful and the kind of GSD I grew up w/about 6 or 7 years earlier. I too "mauled our GSD's who probably rolled their eyes and thought "OMG she's back ."


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

dzg said:


> I probably did lots of other stuff I can't remember, but I never abused my dogs. Is that enough context for the SPCA members?
> 
> p.s. some of you have asked - I grew up in the 1970's. My GSD's were acquired in the mid-1970's and they were acquired from a BYB,


Well, here I go, dating myself...To the OP; back in our day, as children we spent a lot of time outside playing. We didn't have cable TV, video games, computers, Iphones etc. We had to create our own entertainment. I have three sisters. Our GSD(s) was always in the center of all we did, every game...every fight...every time one of us snuck out of the window at night...oh wait, that was just me!


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

You must be British? The UK called them Alsatians (and many still do) after WWII.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I read a testimonial on a breeders website whereby an owner gushed about how when they were closing the sofa-bed the dogs paw got clipped and the dog launched itself at the sofa arm and gave it a good hard bite ... the positive comment was about how "full" the bite was, and how the owner was looking forward to titling the dog in Sch. That scares me ... I wouldn't want a dog like that anywhere near my family or near me!!


Well, most ScHH dogs are obedient. Obedience is the foundation of all three phases, and if someone is bragging about a full bite, whatever. A dog that cannot decipher what to bite is a liability and shouldn't be represented in the sport. Take each website and their testimonials for what they are, and don't judge anything just because you read it on a website.


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> It's pretty strange how some of the same people who think the breed should be courageous, brave and stable, freak out if they think some kid might stick his fingers in the dogs nose. (kids the dog knows, not strangers)
> 
> Toddler + dog = fingers in the dogs nose at least once. That's almost a given. It's not mauling...it's life.


Exactly!!!!

All the things we expect our GSD to be.....the many threads on nerve, genetics, socialization etc All the things they were bred to do.... serve the blind, brave the wars, protect property....take down predators who are threatening the flock, brave the cold while doing it all the while being a family companion......but sit a 5 month old baby beside it and have it pull on its coat a bit or a child tread on a paw or climb on it and the dog shouldn't have to *put up with it*.....well that just seems crazy to me......:crazy:

Also disagree that the majority of parents let their children do whatever they want to the family dog.
When you work in rescue I guess you see it all the time cause that is where the dogs end up......but is it really happening ALL the time??
I worked in a specialist equine center.....we used to do 4 or 5 colic surgeries a week......who would own a horse.....all they get is colic right?? NO......there are plenty of horses out there who never get a bout of colic in their whole life.....it was just when they did.....they came to us so it looked like horses got colic all the time....


----------



## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

I know what you're talking about. In the early 1980s, my GSD Bear was a big lovable goofball with kids. My ex worked with the guy who bred the dogs and he "introduced a German line to get rid of the roach back in American dogs." He was a fine dog that played well with children (though I set big ground rules for kids on what kind of play - no teasing, etc. were absolutes). Several of his siblings were trained for police work. The breeder had no name for it (DDR, blah blah blah or whatever). It was just a German Shepherd. When I read all this stuff about all these breeds within the breed and see so many nervous wreck GSD, see police and military increasingly going to other breeds because of issues with GSD instability, I wonder what on earth people have done to the German Shepherd. 

This thread got a grin out of me with people talking about dogs with kids. My mother had a Pekingnese when I was a kid and if you got right in her face and stared her in the eye and said "skit!" she'd come after you. When I went crying to my mom once with a hole in my bottom lip where the dog had latched on, she simply looked at me and said, "I told you to quit teasing the dog."


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

dzg said:


> I read a testimonial on a breeders website whereby an owner gushed about how when they were closing the sofa-bed the dogs paw got clipped and the dog launched itself at the sofa arm and gave it a good hard bite ... the positive comment was about how "full" the bite was, and how the owner was looking forward to titling the dog in Sch. That scares me ... I wouldn't want a dog like that anywhere near my family or near me!!


One testimonial out of millions of people owning these dogs and participating in SchH is hardly representative.

And I'd bet the person posting that is a newbie with his first dog, so completely clueless. And quite likely based on that sort of macho attitude brag, the sort of person getting into protection work for the wrong reasons.

I can also say that watching dogs at SchH training gives absolutely no indication of what those dogs are like in every day life. They are high in drive and very excited, moreso than any other day of the week or any other environment they are put in. I know my dogs behave differently at training than at home, and am confident everyone elses do too. To use that as measure of what a dog is like at home with the family is akin to judging how calm, well mannered and polite someone's kids are based on how they behave at the gates of Disneyland.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Chris Wild said:


> I can also say that watching dogs at SchH training gives absolutely no indication of what those dogs are like in every day life. They are high in drive and very excited, moreso than any other day of the week or any other environment they are put in. I know my dogs behave differently at training than at home, and am confident everyone elses do too. To use that as measure of what a dog is like at home with the family is akin to judging how calm, well mannered and polite someone's kids are based on how they behave at the gates of Disneyland.


This is true. When I visited Danielle at her PSA club, her dogs were going *nuts*! They were so excited and they wanted to get out there and *work*! Had I not met them in calmer situations I would have never known what stable, clear-headed, calm dogs they could be in other situations.


----------



## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

My 14 month old has 2 personalities, one in which he is the family pet and the other is the foaming at the mouth, barking and wanting to bite the helper, dog. As soon as we are off the training field he likes hanging around with the helper and anyone else who will give him a pet. 
Well bred working lines who have been matched appropriately with what the owner is looking for can be just that fun and confident pet. If someone is capable and knowledgeable, then having the high energy sport dog is just as rewarding. Sometimes that dog is actually more reliable based on the time commitment to training.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

We used to do 4-H demos with Vala. The kids would come up and pet her and love on her then I would do protection. She is quite civil so we would do a mixture of SchH work and other stuff. She sounds and looks pretty darn nasty. We would work her, end the session, my helper would kneel down and she would go over and visit with him. Then the kids would come down and love on her again. This is what a good GSD will be like.

I have always owned what would be considered working lines. I have had very few dogs that could not fit into most good dog owner's homes. They have the drive to work and the nerve to adjust to what every lifestyle their owners live.


----------



## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

My West German working line pup is one of those dogs (he is still a puppy though). I had so many plans for him, but things don't always workout the way you want. My plan was for my dog to train and be a "working dog". 
a month after i got him, i got pregnant!! I was very sick all the time and couldn't leave the house for more than 2 minutes at a time enough for potty breaks. I also live in an apartment not a house, so not even a garden or back yard option for the pup to run around in. 
So instead of training and walking my pup, he ended up staying indoors for 3 months, only going out to pee and poop 3 times a day. And he was fine.. he spent more time with my son and despite my fears he turned out to be quite tolerant to my autistic sons quirks. I contacted his breeder and thanked her for giving me exactly what i wanted, a level headed, calm, medium drive, GSD. A GSD who can adjust to any environment it's in not just the one you dream it will be in. A GSD who is exactly like what i remember growing up. 
And yes as a kid i used to ride my GSD as a horse, my GSD was fine and lived a long very healthy life with no back issues. Now i know better, I do not and will not allow my children to do such things to my dog. But still, the dog lives in a house with kids, they are expected to tolerate a lot more than a dog living in a 100% adult home.

So now with a second child on the way, my schutzhund dream is over or at least postponed indefinitely. My Working line dog, is and will be mainly a family pet and he's doing absolutely fine. he is not hyper in the house despite missing his walks for a few days, he is always happy go lucky goofy fur ball walking around asking for kisses or hugs or for a game of fetch.


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> This thread got a grin out of me with people talking about dogs with kids. My mother had a Pekingnese when I was a kid and if you got right in her face and stared her in the eye and said "skit!" she'd come after you. When I went crying to my mom once with a hole in my bottom lip where the dog had latched on, she simply looked at me and said, "I told you to quit teasing the dog."


I think your mother and my mother went to the same school.


----------

