# Kavik, the Czechoslovakian Vlcak Pup (non GSD)



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Here is the story. A person imported a couple of CsV and went to one of my SAR workshops with the female because he thinks they are the ultimate SAR dog, but she didn't cut it, still I did my homework and found they are actually used in some countries, though more anecdotal than anything.

A couple of months ago the president of the team told me the guy had bred his dogs and wanted to donate a pup to the team, but he really didn't care about it. I jumped and said I wanted it. I'm very skeptical they can be really useful for SAR, though I wanted the pup for the learning experience of raising and training this kind of dog and neither my team nor the breeder really care if I on the long run it doesn't work and I keep him just as a pet (actually, he got registered at my name).

So far I can say Kavik is more wolfish than I expected. Yes, he is skittish and takes his time to adjust to new situations, but it goes beyond that and looks, all the ways he stands, he moves, he looks resembles more of a wolf than a dog pup. The first time I left it alone on my yard my neighbors called me on the phone to inform me there was a fox on my backyard, LOL. The day I picked him the breeder informed me that the parents were kenneled, because that same night they had escaped his property, killed a yearling foal and brought it by pieces to the pups. I can testify it's true because Kavik has been pooping horse hair until yesterday.

I plan on doing extensive socialization, but not this week yet. He needs his time to rest of the stress of being separated from his family, attending an IPO trial and travelling. I don't want induced hysteria either.

Here there are some pictures:


----------



## Rainer (Feb 15, 2012)

He's gorgeous!

I went to an AKC tracking class a while back and a lady there had a young male Vlcak pup - about 10 months old. He was well behaved and got along well with Rai who was about the same age at the time. I talked to her about him and said she had to socialize him A LOT to get him to the point he was at. I knew his half sister and she was really, really skittish. I'm not sure how he's been as he's matured, but he did really well in tracking.

Good luck with your puppy  Keep us updated! They're a very interesting breed


----------



## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

Wow he is amazing. Keep posting on him.


----------



## vprasad (May 17, 2013)

He looks great! Do keep us updated!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there are so many better ways to improve "dog" than mixing with wolf - even with generations distance . Then there are other things such as diet. Read an article recently which said the the dog is different because it lacks the ability to digest carbohydrates - Study: Ability to digest starch is critical difference between wolves and dogs.

Would anyone be excited or interested if the hybrid hinged on a coyote ? Yet coyote are much bolder , and much more adaptable than dogs .


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Thankfully we have the Czechoslovakian experiment precisely to disprove it against those who keep doing mixes. I know it's not your point, but I've read that dog-coyote hybrids lose health and fertility after a few generations.

Most of my dog-friends have another dog besides their working dog: a Poodle, a maltesse, a Japanese Spitz, a Showline they got before knowing about the sport... I joke saying that I'm different, so if I get a dog only for his prettiness, I get a wolfdog.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> Thankfully we have the Czechoslovakian experiment precisely to disprove it against those who keep doing mixes. I know it's not your point, but I've read that dog-coyote hybrids lose health and fertility after a few generations.
> 
> Most of my dog-friends have another dog besides their working dog: a Poodle, a maltesse, a Japanese Spitz, a Showline they got before knowing about the sport... I joke saying that I'm different, so if I get a dog only for his prettiness, I get a wolfdog.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Its not a hybrid! Strictly speaking, you need a license to own a wolf or even a first generation dog-wolf cross but the Czech Vlcak is several generations removed from the original wolf ancestor so its considered a domestic dog. It does take more work to train it and bring out its working qualities. That's why its not for the first-time dog owner. I would have to add Kavik is not typical of the breed and the personality and temperament of these dogs as individuals can vary from the breed standard.


----------



## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

I'm Czech living in USA for some years now. I do not have personal experience with vlcak, except what I saw around town. I just want to say it is not common knowledge in czech that vlcak is more wolf like than gsd. Most people view them as gsd, just maybe little harder to train.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Norman, I said dog and coyotes were hybrids. Besides, you have zero experience with either Vlcaks nor working dogs so you cannot say what are good characteristics or no for it, as opposed to someone like Carmen, though I'm sure you have read a lot on wikipedia about working dogs too and are ready to write a book.

Lets face the truth, Vlcaks breeders are mostly show breeders and that by itself removes working characteristics faster than having or not wolf genes. I am pretty aware that these are dogs, but when I say more wolfish than what I expected I don't mean it from a genetic point of view, but in how he looks when he moves.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Never understand the purpose of dogs like this besides their looks maybe?


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Here there is the better resource of first hand experience of people who, like me, is on it for the learning experience. A series of articles about their observations training CsVs. I'm already in contact with them.

http://www.siamcrowndog.com/article.php


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in the article about the ability of dogs being able to handle carbohydrates the researchers found that this Inability to do so lingers for a very long time after wolf genes have been introduced -- many generations.

the wolf is a specialist when it comes to food and territory and being away from human , needing vast expanses to range in.

Coyote thrives in urban wasteland, rural community , close proximity to people , eat , everything --- trash , and small game . Wild coyotes ‘kind of chilling’ by Wrigley Field - Salon.com
comfortable with the lights , the sounds, waiting patiently to go through the bleachers looking for hot-dogs, pizza crusts !

this is such a good book to read 

Eastern Coyote: Gerry Parker: 9781551091112: Amazon.com: Books

this is a good read The Daily Coyote: Story of Love, Survival, and Trust In the Wilds of Wyoming by Shreve Stockton - Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

this is a good read [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Part-Wild-Journey-Creature-Between/dp/1451634811[/ame]

so far this Kavik IS typical of this breed so many comments about skittishness - (The day I picked him the breeder informed me that the parents were kenneled, because that same night they had escaped his property, killed a yearling foal and brought it by pieces to the pups. I can testify it's true because Kavik has been pooping horse hair until yesterday.) 

Kavik , by the way, I am told means Bear.

by the way I love the name Kavik , had one of my own K Carmspack Kavik CD TD TDX UTD --- urban tracking dog.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> Norman, I said dog and coyotes were hybrids. Besides, you have zero experience with either Vlcaks nor working dogs so you cannot say what are good characteristics or no for it, as opposed to someone like Carmen, though I'm sure you have read a lot on wikipedia about working dogs too and are ready to write a book.
> 
> Lets face the truth, Vlcaks breeders are mostly show breeders and that by itself removes working characteristics faster than having or not wolf genes. I am pretty aware that these are dogs, but when I say more wolfish than what I expected I don't mean it from a genetic point of view, but in how he looks when he moves.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have experience with GSD. In regards to your statement about the Vlcak, this dog was developed by the Czech army/border guard service to create a more suitable dog for working than the GSD then in service with the Czech army and border guard service. The CSV became the Czech national breed only in 1982.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Never understand the purpose of dogs like this besides their looks maybe?


The Czechs wanted to develop a Super-GSD suitable for working purposes. That is why the Carpathian wolf was selected to develop a new breed of dog. It was mated with Czech GSDs to that end. Incidentally, the early SV breed register shows four wolf crosses listed in the foundation stock of the GSD - which was never really pursued. Its more than about looks - its about a dog that should conform to Max Stephanitz's belief a dog should be bred for working. The Czechs' experiments were evidently quite successful!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

NormanF said:


> The Czechs wanted to develop a Super-GSD suitable for working purposes. That is why the Carpathian wolf was selected to develop a new breed of dog. It was mated with Czech GSDs to that end. Incidentally, the early SV breed register shows four wolf crosses listed in the foundation stock of the GSD - which was never really pursued. Its more than about looks - its about a dog that should conform to Max Stephanitz's belief a dog should be bred for working. The Czechs' experiments were evidently quite successful!


It was not. They ended the experiment and later on show breeders took what has been done and registered the breed with the FCI, but the Czechoslovakians stopped to use these dogs for working purposes and neither, Czech nor Slovaks, use them today. I do not know of any army in the world that uses them today, please prove me wrong.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Wow, stunning pup! Definitely keep us updated, I'd love to hear about how he does training!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Kavik means wolverine in Inuit. There is a book called "Kavik, the wolfdog" that I read as a kid, so the name inmediately jumped to my mind.

Carmen, I saw the book when you posted it on the other thread. I'd love to read it, but I broke my Kindle. I hope the next time my brother goes to USA he brings me another one, because there they are way cheaper.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> Here there is the better resource of first hand experience of people who, like me, is on it for the learning experience. A series of articles about their observations training CsVs. I'm already in contact with them.
> 
> Siam Crown Kennel, Thailand - K9 Working Dogs - Malinois, Dutch Shepherds, Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs


Its a good breed for detection/tracking work. If you're thinking of taking advantage of their prey drives for protection work, this dog is not going to attack on command. The CSV has certain uses but is more of an all-around dog than a specialized one.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> It was not. They ended the experiment and later on show breeders took what has been done and registered the breed with the FCI, but the Czechoslovakians stopped to use these dogs for working purposes and neither, Czech nor Slovaks, use them today. I do not know of any army in the world that uses them today, please prove me wrong.


Yet you adopted the breed. You think Kavik - appropriately named by the way - has qualities useful to you? Let us know how it works out!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I adopted the breed because I think it can be MORE challenging than other breeds already proven. My next chosen dog for SAR will be a Malinois. I adopted it because I want to learn from the differences and difficulties I may find on the way to improve as a trainer.

On the worst case, he's stunning beautiful and every girl has the right of a pretty dog


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I can't imagine the breed is very biddable, so a challenge to train. At least he is in a place that understands his character and if anyone can take him 'there', it is you, Catu!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

The wolf vs the crocodile


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

My cellphone!! I just saw he stole my cellphone! Pray it stills work...


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Catu said:


> The wolf vs the crocodile


NormanF, I know it's not a real wolf, but if you look carefully, you'll notice it's not a real crocodile either.

ETA: smartphone is a little bruised, but alive.


----------



## redandgold (Jul 2, 2013)

How do you pronounce that word 'Vlcak'??


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

redandgold said:


> How do you pronounce that word 'Vlcak'??


Vulchak - that is the closest pronunciation.

For a rare breed, they're interesting dogs. If you didn't know it WAS a dog, you'd swear you were looking at a wolf!


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> I adopted the breed because I think it can be MORE challenging than other breeds already proven. My next chosen dog for SAR will be a Malinois. I adopted it because I want to learn from the differences and difficulties I may find on the way to improve as a trainer.
> 
> On the worst case, he's stunning beautiful and every girl has the right of a pretty dog


I agree with you that your puppy will grow up into a beautiful dog. If you get past the stormy adolescence phase, Kavik should be a good fit! Make sure he gets lots of socialization and public exposure - it should help with skittishness and potential shyness. The training is the hard part - and like with tame wolves, this breed probably responds more to hand signals and food rewards than fear and coercive punishment. A well trained CSV is possible and I hope yours works out well! I think you already like him and its a good beginning, indeed.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL 

He's beautiful Catu. 

I'm sure that you, with your experience, will do just fine with him.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> LOL
> 
> He's beautiful Catu.
> 
> I'm sure that you, with your experience, will do just fine with him.


Catu will get a kick out of going everywhere with a wolf! The looks enough should throw people for a loop!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NormanF said:


> Catu will get a kick out of going everywhere with a wolf! The looks enough should throw people for a loop!


Oh? Have you been to Chili to know what they are used to seeing?


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Oh? Have you been to Chili to know what they are used to seeing?


No - but I would guess people would find a wolf an unusual sight. People mistake sable GSDs for a wolf but that's another topic!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Thank you Norman. What would be of me without your words of wisdom? I wasted 80 dollars going to a seminar with Haruo Masuda having you here.

Who knows what the reaction of people will be? No one has ever here seen a real wolf, and the area where my house is is quite rural, so maybe even not on TV. So far when I brought him 2 persons asked me if it was a culpeo


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Interesting read, Catu. Keep us updated on how he does! And pictures...you KNOW we want pictures! Can't wait to see all you accomplish with him!


----------



## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

Very handsome pup!! Keep us posted on how he does with socialization and with eventual SAR training (hopefully he can make it ).


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

HuskyMal89 said:


> Very handsome pup!! Keep us posted on how he does with socialization and with eventual SAR training (hopefully he can make it ).


Who could possibly believe that adding wolf blood would make for a better working dog? 

He does look cool tho.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the comment about the coyote/dog was to show that people wouldn't even give it a thought -- but w o l f ! so much tied into the romance and myth , not the reality of what a mess it could end up.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

All dogs alive today are descendants of the grey wolf.

In 1993, the scientific name of the dog was changed to canis lupus familiaris in recognition of its ancestor.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but Norman , there are changes in 30, to 40,000 years --

the canine genomic study , contrary to what one would expect , found little connection to "wolf" DNA --- in the GSD which was included in the 'molosser' group.

wolf was introduced by the Phylax society which wanted to produce a wolfish looking dog , for a market (novelty) , which produced shy , skitterish dogs going quickly into avoidance. It's all in the von Stephanitz book . Wolf was abandoned as being counter productive .

mtDNA is showing another source of wolf - not the northern grey but the Indian / Iranian red-wolf which is temperamentally different - actually more coyote like ,

"
The Indian wolf was first described in 1831 by the British ornithologist William Henry Sykes under the binomial _Canis pallipes_.[17] In 1888, the British naturalist Blanford, working for the Geological Survey of India, described the Indian wolf as a separate species from the grey wolf and distinguished _Canis pallipes_ from _Canis laniger_ (the Himalayan wolf) by its smaller size, much shorter and thinner winter coat, and smaller skull and teeth.[18]
In 1941, the British taxonomist Pocock subordinated both to _Canis lupus_ under the trinomials _Canis lupus pallipes_ and _Canis lupus laniger_, respectively.[6] Today, the Himalayan wolf initially described by Hodgson in 1847 (_C. lupus laniger_) is generally considered to be part of the Eurasian wolf subspecies, _C. lupus lupus_, whereas the Indian wolf (_C. lupus pallipes_) is considered to be a subspecies, or a species in its own right.
Indian wolves are likely of a much older lineage than northern wolves. Morphologically, Indian wolves greatly resemble primitive European wolves from 500,000 years ago.[8] Recent DNA research suggests the Indian wolf populations in lowland peninsular India have not interbred significantly with any other wolf population for nearly 400,000 years, which could possibly make them an altogether separate species from the grey wolf.[18]
Indian wolves, along with Arabian and Tibetan wolves, are among the wolf subspecies generally suspected to have been the main ancestors of domestic dogs.[9] The basis for this is that Indian wolves share several characteristics with dogs which are absent in northern wolves: their brains are proportionately smaller than northern wolves, their carnassials weaker, and their eyes are larger and rounder. Their vocalisations also include a higher proportion of short, sharp barking. Their small size and less aggressive demeanor in captivity than northern wolves would have made them much easier to tame.[8] They seldom howl, unlike northern wolves.[10][19]"


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Another thing to take into consideration is that the wolf we see in this past 100 years is also a product of heavy selection caused by a pressure that has lead them almost to extinction. Today wolves are the survivors of human hunting, where precisely the more shy and skittish, those to avoided human contact at any cost are the ones who are alive to our days. On the contrary, 40,000-30.000 years ago the boldest and more human confident of the wolves that roamed around villages became dogs.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

carmspack said:


> but Norman , there are changes in 30, to 40,000 years --
> 
> the canine genomic study , contrary to what one would expect , found little connection to "wolf" DNA --- in the GSD which was included in the 'molosser' group.
> 
> ...


The Indian/Arabian form and the smaller variety of the European wolf are suspected dog ancestors. The timber wolf is a huge, shaggy beast which is quite large and powerful. Not a wolf that's easily handled by humans. Its more than likely wolves adopted humans first rather than the other way around.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> Another thing to take into consideration is that the wolf we see in this past 100 years is also a product of heavy selection caused by a pressure that has lead them almost to extinction. Today wolves are the survivors of human hunting, where precisely the more shy and skittish, those to avoided human contact at any cost are the ones who are alive to our days. On the contrary, 40,000-30.000 years ago the boldest and more human confident of the wolves that roamed around villages became dogs.


Catu - yup - and those traits in the Carpathian wolf are passed down to the wolfdogs bred from them. It doesn't mean Kavik won't be friendly and outgoing but dealing with the effects of that genetic heritage makes raising the dog much harder.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Who could possibly believe that adding wolf blood would make for a better working dog?
> 
> He does look cool tho.


They attempted this by creating the Saarloos Wolfdog who also failed as a working dog. Wolfs are not workers; they are highly skilled predators.
I wish they would leave the wolf out of dogs. Some here might be able to deal with these but we have plenty of hybrid breeders in our area and the problems that come with them. The shelters are cleverly disguising them as Husky or Malamute mixes and the public is unaware and plainly go for the looks. People who warn against this on CL get flagged immediately.
I don't get the undoing of domestication. Do we have to prove our superiority somehow in being able to handle animal that's part wild?
I know they are gorgeous and owners get a lot of attention form the public but so do I with WD. I have worked with several but it didn't seem much fun in the end for their owners due to management and stress levels.


----------



## Ares God Of War (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow he is GORGEOUS!!!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## MiraC (Dec 7, 2012)

Looks like a Red Wolf , beautiful judging from those paws he is going to be big!


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Today Nguenechen blessed us with a couple of hours of sun


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Nguenechen is absolutely stunning... its obvious why its a dog - its confident and relaxed. No wild wolf shows such a reassurance in the presence of a human being.

Thanks for sharing the photos!


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> They attempted this by creating the Saarloos Wolfdog who also failed as a working dog. Wolfs are not workers; they are highly skilled predators.
> I wish they would leave the wolf out of dogs. Some here might be able to deal with these but we have plenty of hybrid breeders in our area and the problems that come with them. The shelters are cleverly disguising them as Husky or Malamute mixes and the public is unaware and plainly go for the looks. People who warn against this on CL get flagged immediately.
> I don't get the undoing of domestication. Do we have to prove our superiority somehow in being able to handle animal that's part wild?
> I know they are gorgeous and owners get a lot of attention form the public but so do I with WD. I have worked with several but it didn't seem much fun in the end for their owners due to management and stress levels.



A lot of people have grown up on Jack London and his famous wolfdog "Wild Fang" - there is something beautiful about a wolf, there's elegance, strength and wisdom in the animal that people would like to have in a pet. And breeding programs have sought to capture those qualities in a domestic dog. A true wolf is dangerous and can't really be trusted to its high prey drive and natural instincts. Which human breeding of dogs has striven to tame over thousands of years. Creating a dog with a gentle pet temperament is a formidable undertaking. The Saarlos Wolfdog and the Czech Vlcak are not for the first time dog owner. But for people who can give them what they need and are understanding of them, they can make wonderful companions. Living with a dog that has traits of its wild ancestor makes one appreciate what the dog has given us over thousands of years and it should also motivate us to keep the wolf where it belongs: in the wild and free!


----------



## AngelaA6 (Jan 20, 2013)

Gorgeous pup


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

What a lovely and unusual dog!

Even as I type these words, I feel a little bad, thinking that perhaps some unintended person may come to this forum and see them and think "oh yes, a wolfdog, that's what I need too!" -- when in fact it's generally a disastrous choice for any owner and not at all something that somebody should even consider on the basis of gorgeous Internet pictures.

But for all my ambivalence I just have to admire that dog. He's beautiful.

I'll be very interested to follow your experience with Kavik. I don't believe I have any firsthand experience with wolf mixes. I have met people who _told_ me their dogs were wolf mixes, but in every one of those instances I believe whoever sold them the dogs lied to them. And the owners are much better off for having been fooled.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Here I have to paraphrase Norman and say this is not a wolf-dog mix, this is a dog breed with the addition of wolf blood done more than 50 years ago. With its own particularities, as with any dog breed, Vlcaks are great pets.

Kavik took its time to adjust to home and his more skittish than my other dogs at the same age, but I've had here at home showline GSDs with worst nerve and anxiety problems. Right now while I type he's pestering me and biting my ears like any normal 3 m/o pup. What we have been questioning on this thread (and I think it's actually a good source of information for anyone who arrives here only for the pictures) is their working ability as SAR and patrol dogs and if the experiment of adding wolf blood was successful or not to improve the GSD.

As a SAR handler I'd question the working ability of Huskies and Malamutes too, and they are great pets and excellent in their own venues. Vlcaks are not for the fist time owner, yet I wouldn't recommend a Malinois to an inexperienced person either and I dare to anyone to question their ability as pet and working dogs.

So far the weirdest trait I've noticed about Kavik is his obsession with trying to drink my Coke.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, breed history and standard

this is a good site Training Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs - Rak?a - ?eskoslovenský vl?ák

for Norman's information it was not a one time cross . that is not how a breed is made . There were more than one wolf crosses , which were then in bred on so that the appearance and features are persistent each generation.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

My Czech training friend who managed them at PS said that they did have strong pack drive and went "mental" if left alone. If put with other canines , you had a next to useless DOG because the "wolf-dog" became too doggy oriented , in a psych make-up that was already poor for obedience - great for instinct - . They bonded with one person . Common experience was people would become disinterested when the novelty wore off , or when the challenges were too great , this breed could not be rehomed and so the poor creatures' option remaining was to be put to sleep.


and then there is the Dutch version , which failed and the Italian version Lupo Italiano Lupo Italiano


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> Here I have to paraphrase Norman and say this is not a wolf-dog mix, this is a dog breed with the addition of wolf blood done more than 50 years ago. With its own particularities, as with any dog breed, Vlcaks are great pets.
> 
> Kavik took its time to adjust to home and his more skittish than my other dogs at the same age, but I've had here at home showline GSDs with worst nerve and anxiety problems. Right now while I type he's pestering me and biting my ears like any normal 3 m/o pup. What we have been questioning on this thread (and I think it's actually a good source of information for anyone who arrives here only for the pictures) is their working ability as SAR and patrol dogs and if the experiment of adding wolf blood was successful or not to improve the GSD.
> 
> ...


There is the other half of the dog and that is the GSD ancestry. After all, the Czech Poracni Straze GSD working dog line was used as the foundation for the CSV breed. The real question is whether the infusion of wolf genes has contributed anything to the vitality (in refreshing it) of the GSD. With Kavik, it will eventually become apparent how much the GSD will bring out his ability both as a pet and working dog.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

carmspack said:


> Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, breed history and standard
> 
> this is a good site Training Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs - Rak?a - ?eskoslovenský vl?ák
> 
> for Norman's information it was not a one time cross . that is not how a breed is made . There were more than one wolf crosses , which were then in bred on so that the appearance and features are persistent each generation.


That was true for some years but now it breeds true and wolf crosses aren't used any more. All in all in appearance and build, its a strikingly beautiful dog in its own right.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

carmspack said:


> My Czech training friend who managed them at PS said that they did have strong pack drive and went "mental" if left alone. If put with other canines , you had a next to useless DOG because the "wolf-dog" became too doggy oriented , in a psych make-up that was already poor for obedience - great for instinct - . They bonded with one person . Common experience was people would become disinterested when the novelty wore off , or when the challenges were too great , this breed could not be rehomed and so the poor creatures' option remaining was to be put to sleep.
> 
> 
> and then there is the Dutch version , which failed and the Italian version Lupo Italiano Lupo Italiano



Like with GSDs (remember the GSD is part of the dog, too!) it does not fare well alone! This is not a dog meant to be tied up to a tree or banished to a kennel. Its happiest being with its owner and human family. This dog needs to be included in every day life and being exposed to a variety of surroundings. Its unfailingly loyal and devoted to its owner and family. You're correct, the Czech Vlcak, Saarlos Wolfdog and Lupo Italiano are only for special people who can truly appreciate what rhese dogs have to offer! They are not for every one.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

carmspack said:


> this is a good site Training Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs - Rak?a - ?eskoslovenský vl?ák


Yep.The source is the same site I posted earlier.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you for the clarification. I think I knew that at the beginning of the thread, but, well, after this many pages it's useful to have the reminder of the original purpose and plan. 



Catu said:


> As a SAR handler I'd question the working ability of Huskies and Malamutes too, and they are great pets and excellent in their own venues.


This made me smile a bit. I recently read Susannah Charleson's "Scent of the Missing," in which one of the profiled SAR teams has an excellent working husky -- and the handler gets teased _constantly_, including by other SAR people, about having such an "unsuitable" breed.

I guess you might already have known that (and maybe that was the point of the comparison), but I didn't. Before reading that book, I always figured huskies would be somewhere down at the bottom with English bulldogs and pugs as unsuitable working partners. Learned something new!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry Catu -- guess I really like the site ! lol.

as far as refreshing the GSD the answer would be none because these schemes have created "new" breeds and are not incorporated into the overall breeding program of GSDs -- nor should it as it would be a giant step backwards.

One of my friends was a by-law officer whose duties included examining farmers' claims for livestock losses . His territory went from Markham to Peterborough and everything in between. He said wild canids , the few coyotes that we had at the time , left a totally different signature than the kills of dogs-gone-wild or hybrids .

The ones with dog in the equation would kill for the fun , leave dead sheep or mauled larger livestock strewn on the field. The wild canid would hunt for the food and pretty well pick it clean. 

Catu's story about , correct me if I am wrong - Kavik's dam, going to the neighbours , taking down a foal , and bringing back body parts to feed the pups is scary . The GSD is a herding breed , could the wolf-dog be trusted , or even capable , not just in the duties of herding , but able to inhibit the prey response.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I have hens, Kavik already learnt to leave them alone. There is also a neighbor cat he doesn't mind either, though I'd prefer if he chases it away...

There are videos of Vlcaks herding on youtube, but originally the breed never was intended as a herder.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> I have hens, Kavik already learnt to leave them alone. There is also a neighbor cat he doesn't mind either, though I'd prefer if he chases it away...
> 
> There are videos of Vlcaks herding on youtube, but originally the breed never was intended as a herder.


That's the GSD in the Vlcak - after all its GSD parent has the herding instinct so it what appears in the videos. No wolf ever does that! Its a not dog big on protective and schutzhund work instincts but it appears very good at scent detection work. This is the ideal dog for SAR activities - even better than its GSD ancestor! Kavik I think will do well in almost all the roles GSDs are trained for and he should be superb at agility trials also!


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

carmspack said:


> sorry Catu -- guess I really like the site ! lol.
> 
> as far as refreshing the GSD the answer would be none because these schemes have created "new" breeds and are not incorporated into the overall breeding program of GSDs -- nor should it as it would be a giant step backwards.
> 
> ...


I find Catu's story fascinating because regurgitating behavior has largely disappeared in domestic dogs. Wolves do that in bring back food home for the pups. This is supposed to be a dog, after all. I bring this up because it doesn't jibe with the Vlcak's confirmed herding instinct shown in Youtube videos!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Kavik, the killing machine I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpD0lElVX84&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Omg I love him!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> Kavik, the killing machine I
> 
> Kavik, la máquina de matar I - YouTube


The Wolf Plays With The Cat! LOL


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

As you can see, my cat is the best helper. By not running he doesn't trigger prey drive and is very tolerant, yet he puts Kavik on his place if the play is too rude. This cat can give CM lessons...

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

He's beautiful! Explain his body language. To me, it looks like he's trying to entice the cat to play with him.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

You are right  But Kimba, the cat, is more on the cuddle side. It was a cold morning, maybe 3-4 ºC and on those days what he loves the most is to cuddle with his big warm pillows, not too fond of playing.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> You are right  But Kimba, the cat, is more on the cuddle side. It was a cold morning, maybe 3-4 ºC and on those days what he loves the most is to cuddle with his big warm pillows, not too fond of playing.



Its winter in Chile now.... no wonder the big boy keeps warm!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Wow! That explains why I was so cold!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

First pic of the three togheter


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wow - picture reminds me of a museum diorama


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

It's because that is the way they stop on their tracks when you start to do duck noises, lol.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Catu said:


> It's because that is the way they stop on their tracks when you start to do duck noises, lol.


How does Kavik relate to the other dogs? They look like they get along beautifully together! Which augurs well for the future.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

99% of the time... Something like this:



Akela is the patient uncle who would even let him eat of his dish. Diabla... lets say no that patient, lol. But I use to have other dogs and ups at home from client or rescue fosters and I know her, she doesn't like small puppies who would pester her, but will welcome a play partner once Kavik gets a bit older.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

He is just stunning, Catu. I love his coloring!


----------



## swestypants (Jun 20, 2013)

Absolutely stunning! I follow a girl on tumblr (here's her blog) who has a Vlcak, she posts absolutely stunning photos. Beautiful dogs for sure. I did a lot of research on them about 9 or 10 months ago when I was contemplating what kind of dog I wanted to get. I decided since I'm still in college I didnt have the time required to invest in socializing the Vlcak due to its slightly more timid nature. Stunning dogs though, for sure. 

I was under the impression that the wolf is quite a good number of generations removed. There's not a whole lot of info out on them though that I could find.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

swestypants said:


> Absolutely stunning! I follow a girl on tumblr (here's her blog) who has a Vlcak, she posts absolutely stunning photos. Beautiful dogs for sure. I did a lot of research on them about 9 or 10 months ago when I was contemplating what kind of dog I wanted to get. I decided since I'm still in college I didnt have the time required to invest in socializing the Vlcak due to its slightly more timid nature. Stunning dogs though, for sure.
> 
> I was under the impression that the wolf is quite a good number of generations removed. There's not a whole lot of info out on them though that I could find.


A cross of the Carpathian wolf X German Shepherd. The dog is bred to resemble the wolf while having the desirable qualities of the GSD. Its a rare breed.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Catu said:


> 99% of the time... Something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Akela is the patient uncle who would even let him eat of his dish. Diabla... lets say no that patient, lol. But I use to have other dogs and ups at home from client or rescue fosters and I know her, she doesn't like small puppies who would pester her, but will welcome a play partner once Kavik gets a bit older.


Akela is gorgeous! You need to share more of him too!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

carmspack said:


> wow - picture reminds me of a museum diorama





Catu said:


>


I couldn't resist


----------



## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

so funny :rofl:


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

We had a sunny weekend and since I have no car I took the pack to the river next to home to have some fun. first encounter of Kavik with the water and though it was cold my otter dogs (not a typo) didn't mind getting into the river.


----------



## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

GORGEOUS! Simply magnificent! While in my imaginary mind I would love a dog like this and could rise to the challenge, my real world mind tells me "NO WAY! LOL!"


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

erfunhouse said:


> GORGEOUS! Simply magnificent! While in my imaginary mind I would love a dog like this and could rise to the challenge, my real world mind tells me "NO WAY! LOL!"



You could. Underneath that wolf, there's all that GSD ancestry. If you like a GSD, you'll love a Vlcak!


----------



## MiaMoo (Apr 6, 2013)

What a stunning, stunning baby.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

erfunhouse said:


> GORGEOUS! Simply magnificent! While in my imaginary mind I would love a dog like this and could rise to the challenge, my real world mind tells me "NO WAY! LOL!"


So far... It's a pup. With his own quirks and challenges as any other dog I've met, but 100% a fun loving cuddling pup.

He is not timid at all with strangers and loves to meet new people. He needs time adjusting to new places, but not that worst than the GSD pup I raised past year. Super dominant with other dogs, it's something I have to be carefully as he grows. Kavik has shown aggression for food and toys, but I'm quite dominant myself so it has not escalated to more than being a brat. What else can I add so far? Recall is not bad... is non existent LOL, and at 4 months old he can already jump a 1,70 m fence.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> Akela is gorgeous! You need to share more of him too!


And you need to share more of Karlo!!!

I'm waiting for permission (because I'm not the one who took the pics) and then I'l try to post pics of our last trial


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

What a great opportunity for you! I look forward to hearing more about your experience with him as he grows. (he's gorgeous btw!)


----------



## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

NormanF said:


> You could. Underneath that wolf, there's all that GSD ancestry. If you like a GSD, you'll love a Vlcak!


Nope!!!! Sabo isn't nearly as hard headed as they come and he's a handful for me!!!! I will live and admire from afar!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

wow, so beautiful. Looks just like a wolf. :wub:


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

gsdlover91 said:


> wow, so beautiful. Looks just like a wolf. :wub:


Exactly! The original father several generations back was a Czech GSD and the original mother was a Carpathian wolf. The modern dog breed takes its appearance more from mom than from dad!


----------



## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

He's beautiful!! What an awesome looking dog!

The other two are, of course, stunning as well!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

A bit of obedience work with Kavik. I'm very proud of how engaged he can be.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151933934214451


----------



## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

Love all the updates of Kavik! Especially love the end of the vid, you both look so happy.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Gorgeous! He seems to already have a great bond with you. Well done with him!


----------

