# Need honest response on German shepherds



## MakoTaco (Jun 22, 2020)

Hi Everyone,

I'm not new to German Shepherds but I never had a purebred German Shepherd. I was lucky and got a free German shepherd/husky mix, named Bear, from a KNPV local breeder who's dog had an oops litter. He looked like a bicolor German shepherd with icy blue eyes. I got him at 6-8 months old and the breeder told me I could take him to her training club since he had the drives to be a good working dog. Bear was an incredible dog. I never had a "working" line dog and it was amazing how intelligent and focused he was. He was also incredibly gentle and had no dog/human aggression despite having a horrible upbringing.The breeder took Bear from his first owner because he just locked him in a kennel. One of his ears was torn and permanently disfigured. I was amazed that a dog with absolute no socialization as a puppy could become so well-adjusted. He had solid nerves. I strongly believe that it was his genetics since I fostered rescued dogs and they all had some type of fear issues due to lack of socialization. Hence, wanting to go to a reputable breeder.

Any who at the KNPV club I noticed a lot of the dogs were... aggressive. I noticed a lot of the Belgian were just so "drivey" and neurotic, didn't seem to have an off switch. When I talked to the owners they just joke around and say their dog can work all day everyday. I don't think they are suitable for me. There weren't very many German shepherds but they seemed more calm. Some I could tell were very dominant dogs. Like you definitely don't want to pet that dog or be left unsupervised without the owner around. I saw some that had some definite handler aggression being worked on. My breeder had to keep her male dogs all separately due to their male-on-male aggression.

I'm hesitant to purchase a puppy that has these aggression issues. Again these dogs at the club were considered "good" working dogs. Bear had the drives and became a phenomenal working dog but he had an off switch and despite his lack of socialization, turned out to be amazing. He definitely could have been a therapy dog. Even the club members joked I won the jackpot lottery of rescue dogs. I would be training this dog in some type of dog sport, most likely KNPV. The breeder I got Koda from no longer breeds GSD's just Belgian Malinois. I assuming to become more competitive in the sport.

I would like some honest response from owners of working line GSD's and breeders. Bear was very slow to mature but my breeder told me that is common with DDR lines which is something I don't mind. He was a very goofy dog. I don't mind the prey drive obviously but is dominance aggression a common issue in GSD? Do you have people asking to take their dog back because of handler aggression/dominance aggression issues? General aggression issues? GSD's becoming aggressive after maturity? Should I just get a show line GSD and attempt to do KNPV with it?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have a high drive working line dog who was supposed to be medium drive. Compared to the breeder’s other dogs, he is more mellow, but he still has a crazy high drive in some instances. I went to her to get a WGSL, but she was phasing them out and the WLs I met there were calm and well trained. I thought I can do this. I had GSD experience and I know how to train. I met my puppy at 5 weeks and again when we picked him up. He is a great dog and I adore him but I was not prepared for his drive and really did not want to deal with it. I had wanted a therapy dog and she said with the right handling, he might become one. She was right somewhat. He has a good temperament and is very smart, learns easily and is enthusiastic and fun. Unfortunately, he had stubborn Giardia so the puppy socialization groups would not allow us in. He got pano very young too, and could not walk for a full week every second or third week until he was 18 months old. So between that he didn’t get the kind of early exposure I had planned for him. The end result, he is a wonderful dog, a great pet, but by the time I wanted to put him into dog sports, it didn't work out. In retrospect, I should have waited for a WGSL which is what I knew and wanted. He is an incredible dog and has made me a better and more confident handler, but we missed out on a therapy dog, and on many other activities I planned for my dog, A well bred WL dog can make an incredible pet. They can be excellent sport dogs. My breeder has titled over 30 of her dogs in IPO. She ran a Schutzhund club for years. But in the end, it has been very challenging. The posters here love their WL dogs and with good reason. Many of the dogs here are extremely well bred as well as well trained. Still, I feel I need to share the other side to the line. The dogs at your club don’t sound like what you want. I would do a lot more research if I was in your position.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

A well bred working line pup from a reputable breeder should not be a problem. Good breeders will pick out the appropriate pup for you based on what you want to do with your dog. Most litters will have pups with varying degrees of drive!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I have a WL dog from a good breeder. I've been unable to walk her or work her for several months now due to medical problems I'm having. She's quite content to chill in the house most of the day, then go out in the yard and have me throw a ball or stick for her to give her some exercise. 

A WL dog with the right temperament can definitely be the right dog for you. This dog does have the drive for IPO/schutzhund, it's just that I'm not capable of training her right now.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

KNPV- do you live in Europe? 


Communicate with some good breeders and tell them what you want. Finding a social, stable confident GSD that can still do KNPV should not be a problem. I have two KNPV line dogs, and one is super social and still an excellent sport dog. The other is less insta-social, but she warms up quick. Neither has handler aggression. Same sex aggression is common in the breed, it isn't at all unusual, but you can select against it. You can have good working dogs who are easy to live with, but you have to know what you want and find the right breeder.


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## MakoTaco (Jun 22, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> I have a high drive working line dog who was supposed to be medium drive. Compared to the breeder’s other dogs, he is more mellow, but he still has a crazy high drive in some instances. I went to her to get a WGSL, but she was phasing them out and the WLs I met there were calm and well trained. I thought I can do this. I had GSD experience and I know how to train. I met my puppy at 5 weeks and again when we picked him up. He is a great dog and I adore him but I was not prepared for his drive and really did not want to deal with it. I had wanted a therapy dog and she said with the right handling, he might become one. She was right somewhat. He has a good temperament and is very smart, learns easily and is enthusiastic and fun. Unfortunately, he had stubborn Giardia so the puppy socialization groups would not allow us in. He got pano very young too, and could not walk for a full week every second or third week until he was 18 months old. So between that he didn’t get the kind of early exposure I had planned for him. The end result, he is a wonderful dog, a great pet, but by the time I wanted to put him into dog sports, it didn't work out. In retrospect, I should have waited for a WGSL which is what I knew and wanted. He is an incredible dog and has made me a better and more confident handler, but we missed out on a therapy dog, and on many other activities I planned for my dog, A well bred WL dog can make an incredible pet. They can be excellent sport dogs. My breeder has titled over 30 of her dogs in IPO. She ran a Schutzhund club for years. But in the end, it has been very challenging. The posters here love their WL dogs and with good reason. Many of the dogs here are extremely well bred as well as well trained. Still, I feel I need to share the other side to the line. The dogs at your club don’t sound like what you want. I would do a lot more research if I was in your position.


Thank you for you honest response! I'm a nurse and love therapy dogs! They are amazing. I guess I was being negative about the club's dogs. There were some great dogs too. My breeder's dogs were very nice dogs I would take one in a heartbeat. Recently there was a case of a toddler losing his leg in my area from a police k9 (the toddler was his son) and I just don't want a dog like that. Obviously training comes into play but I think genetics probably played a part. 

I just wanted to ask what challenges you had with your working line dog that you feel a WGSL would have been better suited for you?


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## Cadfael (Jun 17, 2020)

Most GSDs I've had, had fear aggression, except for two, and they were socialized heavy when young. It's takes some work and training to get them confident enough to move out of that phase. My 2 yr old, still has some fear aggression, but it has gotten better with training and taking her to a center for specific training and more socialization. I've never shown a dog, so don't know about show lines or other stuff like that. I do know that if you don't take care of that fear aggression it will become a very big problem. Otherwise, a well socialized and trained GSD is an absolute pleasure to have around.


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## MakoTaco (Jun 22, 2020)

Muskeg said:


> KNPV- do you live in Europe?
> 
> 
> Communicate with some good breeders and tell them what you want. Finding a social, stable confident GSD that can still do KNPV should not be a problem. I have two KNPV line dogs, and one is super social and still an excellent sport dog. The other is less insta-social, but she warms up quick. Neither has handler aggression. Same sex aggression is common in the breed, it isn't at all unusual, but you can select against it. You can have good working dogs who are easy to live with, but you have to know what you want and find the right breeder.


I was born in Europe! Are you in Europe? It's a Mondio Ring Club. But the club focused their training to KNPV if that makes sense? It seems everyone has nice dogs on here which is assuring though.


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## MakoTaco (Jun 22, 2020)

Cadfael said:


> Most GSDs I've had, had fear aggression, except for two, and they were socialized heavy when young. It's takes some work and training to get them confident enough to move out of that phase. My 2 yr old, still has some fear aggression, but it has gotten better with training and taking her to a center for specific training and more socialization. I've never shown a dog, so don't know about show lines or other stuff like that. I do know that if you don't take care of that fear aggression it will become a very big problem. Otherwise, a well socialized and trained GSD is an absolute pleasure to have around.


When I was looking at rescue GSD's I noticed a lot of them were being rehomed due to this problem. Based on my rescued dog, who had no socialization as a puppy, I do think it is genetic related. It seems having a fear aggressive dog would be a lifelong commitment of continuous training. So I can understand why some people don't want to adopt these dogs.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MakoTaco said:


> When I was looking at rescue GSD's I noticed a lot of them were being rehomed due to this problem. Based on my rescued dog, who had no socialization as a puppy, I do think it is genetic related. It seems having a fear aggressive dog would be a lifelong commitment of continuous training. So I can understand why some people don't want to adopt these dogs.


There is definitely a huge genetic component. A lot of people mistakenly believe nervous and fearful dogs are protective because they give a big bluffing bark, and bark at many people who walk by, and some of the dogs learn to bite as well, particularly when people start walking away. Fearful dogs that learn that biting and aggression solves their problems can become very dangerous dogs, particularly when they are a large breed. 

As such particulalrly in german shepherds from poor breeders or people who don't understand dog behavior genetic based fear has become a huge problem. People really undervalue how much genetic can influence behavior in dogs. According to the it all in how you raise them crowd the GSD I got should have been extremely aggressive after being in a very abusive and neglectful home, instead she's an exceedingly sweet dog even after all of that. Some dogs raised their entire lives in puppy mills can adjust quickly to normal lives meanwhile dogs raised with the very best environment their entire lives can still develop severe behavioral problems that have to be managed due to genetics. 

I think there is some inappropriate aggression in some working/sport line dogs. I have no patience for an unnecessarily aggressive dog. There's a huge difference between being dog selective and actively trying to kill or attack other dogs (an issue in some shepherds). Also a difference between a dog that will attack it's handler with no compunction and a dog that won't accept abuse/unfair corrections or a dog that wouldn't attack it's handler unless absoutletly pushed to. Could be an injury or other factors. Some dogs won't bite their human even when in intense pain, others will. I think you can find a good german shepherd with what you want, just be careful of who you go to and avoid those who think that dogs need to be over the top to win titles or excuse poor temperament because they can win titles.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

I was going to start a thread on the topic "A tired dog is a good dog.... and when my dog is not tired he is a nightmare!"

A couple of days ago I started putting 10 cubic yards of mulch around the flower beds. But before I could start, I had to remove a couple of inches of excess soil that had built up over the years and used that to top-dress the rest of the lawn.

Anyway, I strained my back and had trouble giving Ole his long hikes and active play sessions. In the past three days, he has become an absolute nightmare. He can's settle down. He started nipping at people's feet. If anyone else tries to walk him, he tugs at the leash and tries to get them to place chase.

I knew my pup liked a lot of action, but I didn't realize how quickly he would lose his mind without it. This doesn't seem true with all German Shepherds. But mine seems to need 90 minutes of physical/mental stimulation to keep sane. Maybe when he is older he will chill a bit.

It is like he has so much energy he has to use up per day. If he can't direct that energy towards play and adventure he starts bouncing off the walls. 90 lbs of bouncing GSD doesn't take long to become destructive.

When he is tired, he is the best dog you could imagine.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Just want to say that with all of the German Shepherds I have owned, currently own, or know long term owned by other people, I have not had a single one or know of a single one that was a dog killer. These dogs consisted of well bred, pure bred, poorly bred and were nurtured under various conditions. I am not saying that none were dog aggressive or dog reactive, nor am I saying it can't happen. I am just simply saying that killing other dogs is not expected breed behavior.

I personally believe that same sex aggression is actually a survival of the species mechanism which would not exist in a natural environment where the dog population is sustainable vs the overcrowded environment that we provide for them. In essence, take the SSA dog and give him or her opportunity to interact with the same sex where territory is not at a premium and don't be surprised if that SSA starts to fade away. 

With that said, I have owned only well bred since the 80's and have not found inappropriate aggression to be an issue. If anything, I see a lack of aggression becoming an ever increasing problem in this breed. There should not be any question as to will my GSD protect me. GSDs should come out of the box with a degree of human aggression making it naturally capable of protecting and guarding as called for in the written breed standard.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

OP- no, I'm not in Europe but I did import my newest pup from the Netherlands. KNPV lines- and she is the super social, open confident dog. So they are out there. It really depends on the goals of the breeder- I want a social dog who doesn't see the world as a threat, but who can get serious when required. I like that clear headed switch. You need to know where to look, and make sure both you and the breeder have the same definition of terms like "social". I'm not a fan of outright handler aggression, but I'm fine with a dog who protests when a handler is being unfair. Work with a good breeder, and you'll find what you are looking for!


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