# Please critique my Kennel Design



## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)

Hello fellow Forum members,

I'm brand new to the board. I've never owned a GSD but served with a few of them in Iraq; they literally saved our butts more than once detecting explosives and intruders.

I'm considering buying one or two. My parents are finishing their retirement home (South America) on a few hilly acres in the countryside - 1,500 m.a.s.l., temperature ranges from the upper 50's to the mid 70's year round, with heavy rains in April and October.

They will be moving there in the near future and I'm a little concerned about security (down there is illegal for a law abiding citizen to own a weapon). I think a couple of fine GSDs will deter most intruders. Both my parents are in their late 50's in great health and physical condition, so I think they will be able to take care of the dogs.

I designed the attached kennel (first time I do this) with the following materials in mind:

-concrete slab
-floor tile (so it can be desinfected periodically)
-cinder blocks covered with cement and painted 
-chain link fence
-wood posts
-tile roof

The dimensions are in meters:

Length= 4m
Width= 2 m
Height=1.94m

It will house 2 adult GSDs. Labor + Materials is going to be around $750; a bargain considering I spent $189 for my Bulldog's Igloo house.

I would really appreciate any feedback you may provide.

Thank you very much,

Ken


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Dogs in a kennel run won't deter intruders. Dogs in the house or loose in a fenced yard might though.


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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)

It goes without saying. The kennel's intent is for the dogs to eat and sleep during the day (or if they're sick). They will be released from dusk 'til dawn.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If these dogs are not to be active family members I think you should consider one of the molosser guard breeds. A friend has a Boerbel that is a formidable property protector. The GSD is a herding dog bred to work and interact fully with its family, not a guard dog.

I believe the GSD breed development combined molosser origin guard dogs with fleet footed herding dogs to create a great well rounded dog but they are at their best when the partner with their humans as a team.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> If these dogs are not to be active family members I think you should consider one of the molosser guard breeds. A friend has a Boerbel that is a formidable property protector. The GSD is a herding dog bred to work and interact fully with its family, not a guard dog.


:thumbup:

Molossers or Livestock Guardians were bred to work independently, such as you describe.
They aren't a "needy" breed like GSDs.


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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)

What do you think about the kennel?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It sounds fine... :shrug:

We keep our dogs in our home where they are a great deterrent, we only kennel dogs in rescue (or if we're leaving somewhere) so I don't really "house" dogs in kennels.

Do your parents not want the dogs in the house at all?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I did not look at the plans because I only open files from folks I know. If you have a jpeg of it you can post as a picture [size limit 800 x 600] more folks may comment.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it is kind of small for two adult dogs. 6'x12' will be fine for one dog, I think putting two dogs in that area will have them running through their poop constantly,


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

kfer said:


> It goes without saying. The kennel's intent is for the dogs to eat and sleep during the day (or if they're sick). They will be released from dusk 'til dawn.


Released? Released to be in your yard or released to entertain themselves in the neighborhood? What training are you planning on doing with these dogs? If they aren't trained, it's highly unlikely they will actually protect the property. What interaction will they have with humans? Kenneled all day and released to be by themselves at night?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I've never owned a GSD but served with a few of them in Iraq


BTW, thank you for your service! 
:thumbup:


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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)

selzer said:


> I think it is kind of small for two adult dogs. 6'x12' will be fine for one dog, I think putting two dogs in that area will have them running through their poop constantly,


Thank you. This is the kind of input I was looking for. We have room and funds to make it bigger. Right now the design is 4m x 2m (12'x6'). How about 5m X 3m? That'd almost double the area.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Can you post a jpg? Sorry I don't click on .zip links but I'd like to see it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

When I had a kennel and left my two adult males in it, it was 12 x 16. It fit two nice dog houses in it, and I put a roof over 3/4 of the run. They were only in it, if I wasn't home which wasn't to long

In fact, whenI moved here, 14 years ago, of course I brought the kennel, there hasn't been a dog in it since I actually sold it a few months ago


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

kfer said:


> Thank you. This is the kind of input I was looking for. We have room and funds to make it bigger. Right now the design is 4m x 2m (12'x6'). How about 5m X 3m? That'd almost double the area.


15'x9' is better. 

Currently I have three kennels that are 10'x15'. With two pups in the 10x15 running together, cleaning them twice a day, it works ok, much better when I have just one dog in this area. 

I have recently had to add a few panels and break two of these kennels into one 8x10 and one 6 x 10 foot kennel, each for one bitch. The 8x10 is large enough, barely. the 6 x 10 is small. 

In the larger half I have an 8'x4' shelter, where the dog house and cot can be. And the dog can jump up on top as well. In the smaller section, I put down a skid I made 4'x4' and put the dog house on the skid. There is still enough room for the dog to lie on the skid outside the dog house. But There is really no room that the dog is not circling in. 

I can't wait for my ground to firm up so that the concrete on the new kennels can be poured so that I can use these two as they were intended, for one dog, and occasionally putting a second dog in there if necessary for a few hours.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

When I had to keep two dogs outside due to a rental restriction (short term residence), I combined the panels from two 10 x 10 dog pens to make one 20 x 20. It was very roomy and I had a bathroom section and a sleeping/relaxing section along with two dog houses. Fortunately I was able to set it up on a concrete pad and put some platforms in it for resting.


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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)

*Photobucket links*

Here are the links to Photobucket to see the kennel.



S2VubmVsIERlc2lnbiAtIFBpYyAxLkpQRw.jpg photo by kfercruz | Photobucket









S2VubmVsIERlc2lnbiAtIFBpYyAxLkpQRw.jpg photo by kfercruz | Photobucket


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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)




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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)




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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Released? Released to be in your yard or released to entertain themselves in the neighborhood? What training are you planning on doing with these dogs? If they aren't trained, it's highly unlikely they will actually protect the property. What interaction will they have with humans? Kenneled all day and released to be by themselves at night?


Don't get hung up on the wording.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

If they are not house/family dogs, likely the only thing they will protect is themselves!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> If they are not house/family dogs, likely the only thing they will protect is themselves!


I wonder where the term "junk-yard dog" originated.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Just because a dog lives in a kennel, doesn't mean it's not a family member. The kennel design of OP is pretty darn awesome, and anyone going through the trouble to not only design a kennel like that, but build it too, is definitely not somebody that doesn't care about his dogs. If I ever have the money left over to build kennels for the four of mine, I will do so because a kennel is much more comfortable than a crate!

So would some of you just back off and leave that guy alone? You are not helping!

To OP: please don't take offense by some of the comments and stay. I have a friend who just became kennelmaster for his unit undergoing lots of training with his soldiers before they deploy downrange. I truly appreciate what you guys are doing.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I think having kennel is a good idea. We have a standard 10X10 kennel for Ruger that we use on occasion when the dog needs to be contained. He is never left in there at night or when we are not home. There are times however, that we need him to be out from underfoot. If we have a lot of commotion in the house and the doors are open and people are coming and going it is safer for all if he is confined. When we have other peoples children over, we may put him away. If my grandmother comes over who is scared of him, we will put him away. I would say that having a kennel is an excellent idea as long as the dog is not left in it during normal living.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I DO believe it is fair to express our concerns about using a GSD in this fashion and changes (from our perception that the dogs either be penned or at large on the property at night with little interaction*) that can make it more of a win win situation, but lets keep it nice, ok?

For the design, I don't think you would want any gap between the top of the chain link and the roof of the pen that the dogs could climb through. There will be no reason for them to want to stay in the pen. A lot of folks prefer a heavy welded wire to chain link. 

The design does not do much to keep the dogs dry (yes a roof but blowing rain)

I don't think it is large enough for dog two dogs and have heard from several places that a square floor plan helps reduce the dog pacing back and forth all day.

*I think that is what we are reading into what you said because that is all you mentioned. Nothing about anyone actually spending any time with the dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> Just because a dog lives in a kennel, doesn't mean it's not a family member. The kennel design of OP is pretty darn awesome, and anyone going through the trouble to not only design a kennel like that, but build it too, is definitely not somebody that doesn't care about his dogs. If I ever have the money left over to build kennels for the four of mine, I will do so because a kennel is much more comfortable than a crate!
> 
> So would some of you just back off and leave that guy alone? You are not helping!
> 
> To OP: please don't take offense by some of the comments and stay. I have a friend who just became kennelmaster for his unit undergoing lots of training with his soldiers before they deploy downrange. I truly appreciate what you guys are doing.


The dog is for his folks, who are building their retirement home in South America. Can't have any weapons, so the dogs are pretty much going to be purchased as a measure of security. And the son who does not own the dogs is going to build them a kennel for their dogs. Which is a little different. It does not mean the people won't care about the dogs, but it does come across like the dogs will be stabled during the day and let loose to protect the property at home. 

Personally, I do not think it is correct that the dogs will not protect if they are not house dogs. I think dogs with limited socialization and human interaction may be a great deterrent, it is likely they will be territorial and bark at anything that approaches their fence, kind of like junk yard dogs. 

There are some red flags here: 

1. The OP has not owned the breed, but has seen them work in the service. That does not come close to knowing what it takes to raise, care for, train a GSD. They are not born fully trained. 

2. The OP is buying the dogs for his folks. Are they on board? If they are, why aren't they figuring out how to house and care for the dogs? Late 50s is not aged. Nothing wrong with a son choosing to do something for his folks, but dogs are a lot more involved than buying them a membership to a country club. 

3. The plan for the dogs is to be kenneled all day, and run loose at night to protect the property. It does sound like we are considering something that will eat and poop and shed, but not necessarily something that has a personality as intricate as a GSD.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I am seriously sick and tired of this forum and people's assumptions without knowing anything about the OP and his family!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> I am seriously sick and tired of this forum and people's assumptions without knowing anything about the OP and his family!



All you _know_ about him is that he claims to be military. This is the internet. He can be anyone and can say anything. I personally think that he is probably saying exactly who he is and what he intends to do and for what reasons. And people SHOULD state what they see as possible issues with that. These are opinions, and if you come to a GSD enthusiast site, and suggest something, expect people to give their opinions on that.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> I am seriously sick and tired of this forum and people's assumptions without knowing anything about the OP and his family!


Mrs.K, people genuinely care here and if you are sick and tired of that, I am sorry but that is your own business. As long as folks are polite there is no reason they can't both answer the OPs questions and express their concerns about the plans.

There has only been a statement made that the dogs will be in the run during the day (or when sick) and running at large on the property at night. I don't think any assumptions are being made.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> I wonder where the term "junk-yard dog" originated.


 
yours? if not, look it up on Google?


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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm the OP. I appreciate the useful comments related to the kennel. That's why the original design is flexible; for example I know now I need to make it bigger or build 2 separate kennels if I actually buy 2 GSD's. I'll make sure the chain link fence (or welded fence) covers from top to bottom.

I know that a fully trained military GSDs in a combat zone is different that an untrained civilian GSD. Like comparing a Navy Seal in with a regular citizen. But a GSD with the right pedigree has a very good guard foundation, better than most dogs. I plan to spend money on basic obedience training and protection up to the dogs' ability.

I think some clarification is due to avoid misunderstandings. The location of this property is in Colombia. The construction is still happening so I want to leverage the workers and materials already in place. If I choose to do it later it will be more expensive and complicated.

Colombia is a poor country and the kennel I've designed is kind of an eccentricity. Only the very high-end breeders have something like this. Dogs are perceived as workers and need to earn their upkeep down there, especially in rural areas.

This country is not for the faint of heart, and both human and canines have a 6th sense and very developed situational awareness. When I moved to the U.S. I was surprised to see how friendly most dogs were.
Even Light-weigth mutts in Colombia are fearsome guard dogs and won't hesitate to attack an intruder. I'm not too excited about my parents moving back to Colombia...but it's what they want at this time.

The property will have full time live-in help; the husband will take care of the landscape, repairs, etc. The wife will clean and cook. They will live in a small house that is being constructed by the front gate.

My idea of the kennel is for the dogs to have a clean, comfortable place to eat and relax, or to be secured while workers or guests are on the property. Normally they'll spend a lot of time with my parents, remember...they'll be retired before hitting 60 (I'm envious...I'm a Gen X'er).

Thank you for all your help. I will definetely post the pictures of the finished kennel. Choosing the dogs will be a another chapter in this story and will definetely ask for your opinions.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Thank you for the extra information - it is very helpful. As GSD lovers, we just bristle at the thought of these smart, sensitive dogs living their lives in a kennel - I didn't get the impression from your initial post that the dogs would be only kennel dogs, but you never know without the extra info! 

It sounds that from your military involvement with the breed that you have a good understanding of working dogs bred for work, and the importance of training and human bonding with the the dogs.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Will the dogs be friendly to the hired help or only released after they are not around?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> This country is not for the faint of heart, and both human and canines have a 6th sense and very developed situational awareness. When I moved to the U.S. I was surprised to see how friendly most dogs were.
> Even Light-weigth mutts in Colombia are fearsome guard dogs and won't hesitate to attack an intruder. I'm not too excited about my parents moving back to Colombia...but it's what they want at this time.


If there's going to be intruders, won't they have guns to shoot the dogs with?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Perhaps they may even have an thermobaric weapons delivery system to destroy the fortified bunker he is setting up next to the kennel...
These dogs were originally bred to work, thats what he wants them for. Im sure they will offer a good first line of defense if he picks pups from solid bloodlines. The right dogs have the inate genetic ability to protect their persons and property.
9 tenths of prevention is proactive intimidation.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Blitz. I understand that.
I also understand quite well that guns are superior to dogs any day, and dogs are little deterrent to _determined_ intruders.

Friends of ours home was broken into routinely, and they got a dog for protection. The thieves broke in and killed the dog and stole stuff anyway. The friends moved.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"don't think it is large enough for dog two dogs and have heard from several places that a square floor plan helps reduce the dog pacing back and forth all day."

I agree with this --- a square plan 10 x 10 (mine are 12 X 12 for each dog) does reduce fence running , more restfull. Puting them into a rectangle is like a chute and they will run and make sharp turns - too much repetitive on the turn turning elbow.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The extra info is very helpful to folks, thank you for not taking offense.

My husband grew up for several years in Venezuala because his dad had an oversees job. A lot of crime, mainly theft, and very strict gun laws and this was years ago when Americans were considered "friends". They were able to live like kings on a middle management income with servants, great food, etc. 

He said his dad smuggled in a rifle, but probably bribed the right people. Who knows what would have happened if he discharged it. Of course, that is a very risky thing to do. His older (but underage) brother got caught with a small amount of marijuana and the father was able, with a lot of bribing and negotiating, to get him deported instead of thrown in prison. They don't mess around down there.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Blitz. I understand that.
> I also understand quite well that guns are superior to dogs any day, and dogs are little deterrent to _determined_ intruders.
> 
> Friends of ours home was broken into routinely, and they got a dog for protection. The thieves broke in and killed the dog and stole stuff anyway. The friends moved.


Unfortunately, nothing is effective against a determined threat.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Nothing is effective against a determined threat, except an armed home owner; BUT that does NOT mean dogs can not still deter people.

Even barking dogs, in a kennel, will deter MOST people. At the very least, it is an alert to the homeowners that something is up and to be alert.

I, personally, would make the kennel bigger, but if they are truely not spending much time in it, the size sounds adequate.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

That's a great kennel design, wish I had something similar but a little bigger.

One thing I would be hesitant about is storing the dog food etc above the sleeping box  Mainly cuz my guys are great at breaking into stuff LOL Or I'd forget to close the door properly and they'd scoff a bag of food 
Otherwise I think it's a good design, if it's in a sunny spot you could perhaps consider a shade cloth style "sail" over the outdoor area of the run


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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)

*Puppies*

While construction is under way, I'm doing some research on the GSDs with pedigree available in Colombia. Just to give you an example, a litter of this breeding is being offered: 


Doll Vom KLOSTERMOOR
SG25 JKLR BSZS 2010- VA1(Col) Doll vom Klostermoor

X

Itta de Cerro Azul
V Itta de Cerro Azul


The price of a puppy is $650.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Those are showline dogs, is that what you are after?


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)

Those are the kind of dogs with pedigree available down there. Working lines are very rare.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, the price is really good for WGSL dogs too, depending on what the going rate in Columbia is, I can't comment on that. I recognize some of the names in the dam's pedigree, but more in the sire's. It looks like a good catch. 

WGSL dogs can be trained in protection, etc, if you want to.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is a good price in US dollars, like selzer I'm not sure what the "going rate" is there.
Here in the US they'd be $1500-2k most likely.

Wonder what shipping is, to the US...?


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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)

Everything is relative. In Colombia:

-$650 is about 2 months of minimum wage work 

-An entry-level mechanical engineer makes $650 a month

Very few people can pay $ 650 for a dog down there, let alone the training, vet and high-quality food it needs. So it's safe to say that the price is attractive for this puppy quality (buying from the U.S.)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Catu may be a good resource. I know she is in Chile which is not really neighbors with Columbia but she knows working lines and is in South America........


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## kfer (Dec 6, 2012)

Here's another interesting find. Last two puppies from this litter are being offered for $435 each:

HULK VON DER ZACH (son of Argentinian CH DUX VON HAUS ROTTEN)
Hulk von der Zach

X

SG4 MAYRA DE SANTA MONICA (daughter of Colombian CH XORK DE SANTA MONICA)
SG 4 COL(12-18 M) Mayra de Santa Monica


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I'd say there are far more working-line GSDs in Colombia than in Chile. Specially because of the reasons you already commented the market is bigger, and Colombia has active Schutzhund and Ring clubs. The first time I presented Diabla in SchH was under a Colombian judge... you shouldn't have problems looking for one, though if you need extra contacts I have many dog-people friends in Colombia, specially from the SAR world, but they know good breeders, so you can PM me if you need help.

Be aware of people saying they sell dogs to the police, if I were given a peso for every breeder claiming that, I'd have bought myself a house already.


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