# Question for breeders



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Feel free to answer if you are not a breeder, but I would especially like answers from a breeder’s perspective. I am not going to name the breeder or location or line, as I don’t want to bash, I’m only curious about the contract. It is extremely restrictive. The selling price is on the very high end for a pet dog. They require 

1. No speuter until the dog is fully matured, then it must be done within 6 months. Dogs cannot remain intact and can never be bred.
2. Buyer can only feed the diet they recommend, either raw or a limited number of brands.
3. Buyer can not use any training tools or methods except those approved by the breeder, which are very limited. They cannot use any training collars at all. I think they ruled out IPO but I would have to search for that to be sure.
4. First time GSD owners must pay almost double the purchase price for training with the breeder and cannot have the puppy at 8 weeks. The dog will only be released to the buyer when it has learned the basic skills. I assume by 10–12 weeks.
5. Breeder must approve of the vet being used.
6. Dogs must be socialized and exposed to a list of things, places and people the breeder gives the buyer.

There were other rules, but these are the ones that stood out. If any of those things are not done according to the signed contract, the health guarantee is voided. I understand this is primarily for inexperienced owners and it’s not all bad. Some of it is good. But it restricts the number of potential buyers and limits the type of handler their dogs will have. They will lose out on some very good potential buyers. There is no way to enforce this unless the dog needs to be returned for health problems. 

Why would someone put so many restrictions on buyers? As a breeder, do you think it’s a good idea and why?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Not a breeder, but as a buyer I would NOT buy a puppy with any of those restrictions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This is insane.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I agree with both of you.


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## Kibs (Oct 25, 2017)

I find this pretty amusing. It's ridiculous haha. I can somewhat see the sense behind the no speuter before a certain point, but ... a special diet? No training collars? VETS need to be approved? Screams control freak to me, at least.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I wonder who he sells his pups to. I prefer to own my dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I was looking hard at a golden retriever breeder for a service dog pup awhile back. Then I finally stumbled upon their list of requirements. Very similar to what you posted. Including must use holistic vet approved by the breeder. You literally aren't allowed to take the dog to the vet of your choosing or any regular vet for that matter. Must feed such and such. It went on an on. You had to abide by their vaccine schedule and you could not deviate. Just no. You aren't going to tell me I can't choose what vaccines my dog gets.

I can't remember all of them now, I was horrified. Otherwise, it looked very promising for what I wanted. But the control this breeder exerted over the owners of their dogs was just insane, I could not STAND anyone breathing down my neck like that and i fundamentally disagree with some of it and could not raise my dog the way I want. 

I was shocked to say the least. I had no idea any breeder of anything would have such a list of rules!!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I would have walked away. I can understand wanting to make sure the pups are well cared for but the breeder has to be able to let go! (one reason why I would never breed my dogs). 

To be honest, how does one enforce these rules? They have their hands full with their own dogs. Just voiding the health guarantee?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

car2ner said:


> To be honest, how does one enforce these rules? They have their hands full with their own dogs. Just voiding the health guarantee?


 This was my first thought when I read the OP. They almost guarantee a way out of having to guarantee the health.
That or they are one of those fruit loops who think that them and only them can make any kind of intelligent decisions. And everyone else is too stupid to keep a dog alive.
Either way I would not buy a pup from them.
Just think if they have kids. Imagine being a son or daughter in law and having a baby with them as grandparents.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I can see a breeder offering a list of suggestions and including it with the puppy papers and I would be appreciative of that but not in the actual contract. Does this breeder state that they will take the dog back under any circumstances? I.E.: if pup develops a condition where the only food it can digest is one that isn't listed in the contract? Or if. dog needs emergency vetting and the closest hospital is not on the approved list so the dog dies enroute of the approved vet, does she offer a replacement. Bet not.


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## andywhite (Dec 18, 2017)

I prefer not having any health guarantee and any futher contact with breeder at all; over somebody telling me what to do with my dog.

For example I understand logic behind neutering and no breeding. But I would not get a puppy, where I would have to sign it. Even if I was planning neutering I still wouldn't sign it. 

It's my "life partner". Once I hand over money your influence on its life ends. And we will live our lives how we like it.

_____________

I'm pet owner. If your working top dogs like many of you here I understand that you're not in the same position. But as a pet owner - any of these rules are ridiculous.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

car2ner said:


> I would have walked away. I can understand wanting to make sure the pups are well cared for but the breeder has to be able to let go! (one reason why I would never breed my dogs).
> 
> To be honest, how does one enforce these rules? They have their hands full with their own dogs. Just voiding the health guarantee?


I have seen a few where there is something like a 10,000 dollar fine if you breed the dog without permission


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

not a single one is reasonable.....the only one I even begin to agree is the first - but I never REQUIRE the animal to be altered....only that the owner waits until the animal is mature....

there are many crazy people out there


Lee


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The thing about The breeder who required a holistic vet: I've looked into it before when my girl was sick. The nearest one is an hour and a half away. So, for routine vet stuff I have to drive 3 hrs round trip?

What the heck am I supposed to do if I have an emergency or just a sick dog, drive an hour and a half? I don't think so.

Our referral hospital is two hours away. I like it very much , but the dogs got to be stable enough to get there. I've taken her there 3 times I think for continuing care and did the 4 the roundtrip. not that I am unwilling to drive a long way if its necessary.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have seen a few where there is something like a 10,000 dollar fine if you breed the dog without permission


I understand why some breeders have restrictions on breeding but honestly, if someone had a litter or two is the breeder going to show up at the door with a lawyer? I can't imagine the time it takes to keep track of all the pups throughout the first 7 years of their lives to make sure all are de-sexed, etc.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

When I first met my breeder and I asked if he had a contract, he told me that he doesn't work with contracts and I could bring back the dog anytime as long as the dog was not altered. It is a man of his words and I wouldn't change a thing. He knows that I am reliable and I know he is. Easy.
A breeder that has to work with these unreasonably contracts doesn't know or trust his clients and if he/she is so paranoid, then maybe they shouldn't breed.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> not a single one is reasonable.....the only one I even begin to agree is the first - but I never REQUIRE the animal to be altered....only that the owner waits until the animal is mature....
> 
> there are many crazy people out there
> 
> ...


I would hope that someone willing to sell me a puppy would have faith that I would make the best decisions I could based on that individual dogs needs.
If I have a female who is proving to be an escape wizard who vanishes when I blink, she is getting spayed and fitted with shackles. Lol.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I've seen several contracts like this, it is a way of saying yes we do offer a health guarantee, while ensuring that they'll never have to honor it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wolfy dog said:


> ... I could bring back the dog anytime as long as the dog was not altered.


My breeder doesn't have a contract either. But she will take her dogs back and help find them new homes under any circumstance. It's always about the welfare of the dog for her.

Why does your breeder feel that obligation is null and void if the dog is altered? I'm truly curious about this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This contract is like they went to the craziest German Shepherd Facebook page and picked out the most insane comments there to build a micro-managing lunatic "agreement" just to say they have a contract that is in the best interest of their puppies.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Sounds like a list of largely unenforceable rules, likely to use as an excuse why they won't hold up their end of the contract should a problem arise down the line with a puppy, be it health or temperament. 

I agree with not spaying/neutering until growth has fully completed, but at that point it should be the owners choice to alter or not. There is no 100% agreement on which is better for the health of the animal, so it should be the owners responsibility to decide what is best for them and their pet. I can also understand selling puppies with a limited registration, so that if the owner decides to breed they do so without the ability to register the pups.

The rest, suggestions as to diet, training technique, socialization, etc. is fine. To put it as clauses in a contract seems to me to be ridiculous, and likely there just so the breeder can refuse help if issues come up as the pup matures.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> My breeder doesn't have a contract either. But she will take her dogs back and help find them new homes under any circumstance. It's always about the welfare of the dog for her.
> 
> Why does your breeder feel that obligation is null and void if the dog is altered? I'm truly curious about this.


He doesn't believe in neutering and spaying but I never went into details about this as I don't either.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Well, I'm not a breeder, but I've bought quite a few puppies from breeders, and that list of requirements seems excessive to me. I can emphasize with breeders wanting the best for their puppies and I tend to be agreeable. But I would walk away from such a contract. It seems to imply, at best, a breeder who is opinionated and won't tolerate other ideas, even if reasonable. At worst, it could imply that the breeder is going to blame you if any health or temperament defects show up in their dogs--Oh, of course, your dog is having issues XYZ, you're not adhering to the contract. Sorry, I can't help you. Anyway, I would probably look elsewhere.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My friends one state over got a dog about a year ago, with a list of requirements I found excessive, including when it could receive its rabies vaccination, which is against the law in their state, and what can be used for Lymes vaccination -- and they live in a wooded area where there are ticks. What they must feed, etc, etc,. 

I told them to forget about the health guaranty. It is no guaranty at all. They aren't going to return the puppy no matter what, anyway. 

You know what it looks like to me. It looks like someone who has learned enough to be dangerous. Someone who is not really very experienced yet. They are like a newly born-again Christian. They have found their meaning in religion and want to pound it into everyone they meet. They have read all about RAW food and the dog food Analysis of foods and want you to feed something with 6 stars or a RAW diet. They got the dr. Dodds vaccination schedule and want for you to follow it to the letter. And so forth. The thing is, that none of these things are perfect, either. Just like it is right for my friend to do Lymes vaccine, but probably not right for me to do it where I have my dogs. 

That, or their dogs have some real issues and they have found a formula for improving the success of their puppies or limiting the number of people who try to collect on the health guaranty.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

My breeder offers a health guarantee but she told us it is mostly because the buyers expect it. She also told us that most people would never use it because they become attached to the pup and don't want to return it. A very sick pup would be put down and that would break their hearts. She told us that if our pup turned out to be genetically poor she would honor the guarantee and offer another pup but would hope we would keep the first pup and give it the best life we could. 

In fact we know a family who's pup died a few days after it came home. I think it was a problem with the heart. The family was very upset because the kids were so sad. They were offered a full refund but instead came home with another pup ( a sibling of my gal-dog ) and later even adopted one of the retired gals. 

I guess like in so many areas, not only do we need to do our research on pups, but also the human breeder's expectations and busines practices, and vets and sport clubs and trainers, etc. The more we get involved in our dogs the more we get involved with other humans.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey, but you can’t question the “ reputableness” of this breeder....so with all the boxes checked you should get a great dog!:grin2:


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Hey, but you can’t question the “ reputableness” of this breeder....so with all the boxes checked you should get a great dog!:grin2:


Ha. I can. The work should come when they are approving buyers. If they do a good job with that, they would not need the rest. They are not new to breeding, I checked, but they don’t sell the kinds of dogs most of us would be interested in. And I am being polite. They seem to be way off standard. They are geared toward brand new owners. They don’t show up on a typical Google breeder search. I only found them because I was looking at another kennel I found on a Google search who used a foundation dog from this kennel, which I had never heard of before. Usually good breeders show up somewhere online.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> Ha. I can. The work should come when they are approving buyers. If they do a good job with that, they would not need the rest. They are not new to breeding, I checked, but they don’t sell the kinds of dogs most of us would be interested in. And I am being polite. They seem to be way off standard. They are geared toward brand new owners. They don’t show up on a typical Google breeder search. I only found them because I was looking at another kennel I found on a Google search who used a foundation dog from this kennel, which I had never heard of before. Usually good breeders show up somewhere online.


I think you've got it >


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

New owners may think that a contract like that equals good breeder, equals great dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> Ha. I can. The work should come when they are approving buyers. If they do a good job with that, they would not need the rest. They are not new to breeding, I checked, but they don’t sell the kinds of dogs most of us would be interested in. And I am being polite. They seem to be way off standard. They are geared toward brand new owners. They don’t show up on a typical Google breeder search. I only found them because I was looking at another kennel I found on a Google search who used a foundation dog from this kennel, which I had never heard of before. Usually good breeders show up somewhere online.


Lol?, I was being tongue in cheek, because I often read about red flags and checked boxes as example of reputable breeders. To me a reputable breeder consistently breeds very good GS representative of the standard....and has in-depth knowledge of the breed....their methodology is not for me to judge.


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