# Brutal, abusive (truly) training methods?



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Has anyone heard of an old trick where a "trainer" would nick or slice a dog's tendons or the backs of their pawpads, to slow the dog down and make it more docile?







Just wondering if anyone has any info or has heard of anything like this.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

That ain't training, that's hobbling


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Have you ever heard of this being done to dogs?


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

No way!!!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Maybe the information I got is wrong. I sure hope so.







But, I am not sure. It is/would be hard to see if it were on the backs of the main front paw pads.


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

Where does this happen?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Anywhere horrible outdated methods are/were used. It almost cannot be seen in the backsides of the main pawpads of the front feet.







It might leave perfectly horizontal cuts. (what dog gets a neat, tidy, _horizontal_ cut _behind_ the pad--not on the plantar surface,when walking randomly, even on a piece of glass on a sidewalk.. and on _both_ forefeet?)


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Patti, please tell me you didn't find something like this on Grimm.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am trying to think of how it would work to accomplish that?

Because it is so far out of my imagination, I guess I am having trouble understanding-they wouldn't be able to walk or would be in pain so wouldn't want to move? I am not doubting that people would do this to a dog, just trying to figure it out. 

And I am also hoping very hard that this is not something you found. I am signing off soon, but please take care.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Wow! That's sickening!










No, I've never heard of such a thing either.


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

One of my fosters did it to herself, tried to get out through the window, tore out the aluminum wheatherstripping of the window (it was all around the room) and cut herself on the aluminum on the back of the pawpads. It happened in 15 minutes. This is the only time I saw it. 
What kind of kennel was he in? Could it have been an injury from pawing on the kennel door?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, I have never heard of this.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Patti, tell me this is just something you heard, not something that was done to Grimm.

I have heard on some thing similar in the horse world. The trainer, farrier or owner would intentionally sore up the front feet of "Gaiting Horses" to get the to pick up their front feet faster and transfer some of the body weight to the hind quarters.

Val


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## TMarie (Jul 6, 2006)

Patti,
I am with everyone else. This is very upsetting, and I do hope this has nothing to do with Grimm.
Please let us know.{{hugs}}


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I just feel so sick right now. Grimm also has a swollen lump with a partially healed owie on the handler's side of his muzzle. He also is strangely sluggish, just barely chugging too slow (almost behind me) on walks, and non-reactive to me manipulating all of his owies, and he just sleeps and sleeps. DH, Ulrich, wonders if he may have been drugged to seem docile for a few days. Or, in all honesty, he may have just been exhausted from not getting much sleep for 4 weeks. We did go to the vet. We did take pics. The vet doesn't want to commit herself to saying for sure what (may have)caused the muzzle wound and mysterious behind-the-paw-pads wounds. But, I could read her face about what she thought. And yes, it could well be the edge of the kennel flooring, or a fence (Europe has cement fences with imbedded glass, razorwire tops, etc.. but who would have such around dogs turned out 10 hours a day?). Grimm is not at all handshy now, but then, he has a solid temperament... is a trusting boy. He trusted me.

I just feel sick. Sick, sick, sick.


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## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

This sounds horrible. Good luck to you and Grimm. Hope all turns out well for you all. We are thinking about you.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Me either! 

And please is Grimm okay????


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Oh Patti I am so so sorry and upset right along with you and Ulrich. Part of his tiredness could be lack of sleep. Injuries can happen in kennels, just a possibility.

Since Grimm has nice nerve he will bounce back from this.

Val


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear this.







Have you talked to the trainer about how this could have happened?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thanks for the well-wishes. Val, yes, Grimm has super nerves, and these could be kennel injuries... could be. There is more I don't feel comfortable saying here. Just that I just want my Grimm to never be hurt.

This morning, a dog suddenly exploded out of our building at us this morning as we came up the walkway towards home. Grimm exploded back, yanking me nearly off my feet. Then, in the middle of town, Grimm exploded at a dog he saw, again nearly sending me flying. The trainer said he may work with us a few times in our neighborhood, but, this rests with us from now on. I am hoping Grimm just needs more time to appreciate my new queen-of-the-walk attitude. Clearly, not enough work was done by the trainer on erradicating this longstanding habit of onlead lunging/barking. I have misgivings about the way Grimm was treated. I am trying all I know to love, spoil, and be kind to my SnugglePig right now.. while remaining queen of the walks. Grimm's safety is my priority. I need to be safe, too.. and apparently, the training was not what I hoped.

I am putting iodine salve on his wounds. My sweet boy.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Poor Grimm

I'm sorry this happened Patti


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

(((((((((







))))))))))) to the three of you, and I am glad he is now home and safe.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Patti, trust me I am not defending the trainer. If the injuries were kennel problems, he should have said, geeze sorry but Grimm got this or that cut rub etc.

I have had people contact me to board/train their dog and I won't do it. Why, just for the problem you are running into, I can get a dog to listen and obey me, but they will not listen to others. When I was teaching classes I could take a student's dog and the dog would do some excercise for me in perfect form, hand the dog back to the owner and the dog acted like it never did the excercise.

So Doctor the wounds, but when you take him out, there can't be an ounce of soft wimpy Patti who was in Cyber training to change that. I know you are feeling bad for what happened, but hopefully Grimm really learned things and he is just being your OLD Grimm and not the New Trained Grimm. With my hard female, if I want her to pay attention and listen to me I have to get her attention before I open the door or as soon as we get out the door, I have her do a Sit or Platz, jsut to set the tone.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i just wanted to give my hugs to all of you patti. my guys are all sending kisses and licks to grimm.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Stuff like that happens in the horse world all the time. . . I surely hope it didn't happen to Grimm. Hopefully it was just an accident. Hugs and good thoughts to you all.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Wow, sorry to hear this. Hope all turn out well soon for you and your dog. We just had an interview with a boarder/trainer and I could tell immediately that he would be abusive. I posted about it in one of the ecollar threads in this forum.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Oh Patti that sounds horrible. Poor Grimm, give him a big kiss from Mother Hen Morgan.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Just read this. I hope that Grimm is ok and that you are too. 

With the kind of schedule he was keeping I am sure that it's natural for him to be exhausted. But the other stuff doesn't sound natural and I can understand why you're so upset, even if it was from accidents.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Patti, hoping all turns out okay for you and Grimm. Tell us more when you feel ready. Take care.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Patti, I am soooo sorry to hear that Grimm has these "mysterious" injuries. I hope he is back to his normal (yet improved) self soon! Give him extra scritches and hugs from us too!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Yikes, Patti. Wishing the best for you and Grimmi!! I really hope everything is okay and that Grimm's back to himself again soon. I can understand your worry and concern. If it was an accident, I would hope the trainer would be forthcoming enough to mention it before sending him home with you.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thank you everyone for being so kind about this. I am putting iodine on his visible owies. I am giving him good food, stroking, lovins. _Not excessively so right now, though_. I do on occasion kiss his velvetty muzzle (on the non-owie side) so it vibrates and he yodels with happiness & humor, as usual. Jamie, thanks for the good thoughts for Grimmi. I am glad nobody has heard much of such a type of abuse used by a trainer. Am hoping this was a fluke accident/kennel injury or two.

Val, I read your post before my morning walk, and decided to start my walk _not_ when we get out the building door... or the apartment door.. but the _moment_ I have that collar and lead on in my hallway and say "Heel." Out the apartment door. Down the building hallway. Waiting in a snappy sit for the elevator. Focus, then the come-through command to follow me in the elevator. Then, sitting and focus again before he can follow me out of the elevator. Heel to building door. Sit. Give focus-- and he can follow me through on my come-through command. Then outside, we pick up the pace of our walk. We saw a dog or two today. He glanced, (that much is acceptable) then he looked... CORRECTION!!... then striding forwards "HEEL." Leash relaxed again.. Grimm did great this morning. Basicly, I at home am treating his wounds as you say.. and throwing ALL I HAVE-- zero doubts-- into being the type of strong leader that makes Grimm r-e-l-a-x. Grimm either needs me to place him in a new home with a stronger leader, or *I* must be that stronger leader. DH says maybe Grimm needs more than just 1 day to realize there is a New Patti.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I think DH is right, Grimm is going to take a little while before he recognizes the Leader Patti. 

I think Grimm is a very smart dog and he had you trained Just the way he wanted you, so for right now you can not really relax on the training. I think He is going to test you a few more times. You see he really liked the old Patti, she let him do what ever he wanted, he wanted to pull on the leash he did, he wanted to be an Obnoxious butt head teen he did. He didn't just out right challenge you for control, he was sneaky, a little push here, a little push there, a little non- compliance here a little blowing off Patti there. He gave you OB when HE wanted to, but right now he needs to learn that is what YOU want. 

I think you guys can get it worked out if you are willing to give it your all. It isn't going to be easy, but when he grows up some he will stop some of the teen testing stuff. Patti he really wants you to be his leader, he just isn't going to make it really easy.

Just a though but you might want to have a throw chain in your pocket on walk and the other pocket full of goodies. When he is getting pushy, try jiggling the chain and see if his attention comes back to you. The training place was an unfortunate situation but, I know many will disagree with me, but since you don't have the physical strength then you might get some where by using a reminder of the yucky training, IE jiggle the throw chain. If he settles back down, then ask for more focus and reward the focus. 

Just had a thought, Have you ever talked with Marion Fuller? Maybe she could give you some tips or help you out. I know that she probably has more on her plate than she can handle, but it might be worth a try. From what I have heard she is a no nonsense lady. 

Val


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Val, I have never had a teenager before, nor a workinglines dog.







So, this is all new to me. Marion Füller is in my new hometown here.







I would imagine she charges quite a bit to help, though, and I haven't any funds left.









I am not relaxing the training one bit. Mainly, I need a perfect WALK-- but I am insisting on EVERYTHING-- always-- at home--every time-- being what I just said. No breaking a down, a sit, etc. Do I snuggle him still? Yes and no! I still do kinda.. but right now, it is _less_ than usual. Normally, it is after he does something I ask. For now, I am trying to train a mindset.

I know everyone will disagree with both of us, but yes, I carry the throw chain. It is not heavy, but makes a startling noise(!) when thrown at his shoulder for gawking too long at another dog during the heel. For the next week or two, I will be carrying it. No treats just yet, but soothing praise, given when he has come into position.

You are right about him, he has been both comfortable and sneaky. I am determined to be The New Patti. Grimm can only relax when he has a strong enough leader. I am putting everything I have into my "personality transplant" right now-- seriously. A complete overhaul. I am determined to give Grimm what he needs to know he can relax, he has a leader.

Tomorrow the trainer wants to (gaaackk!!) surprise Grimm and I with another dog around a corner as we exit the building, or maybe he will be directly on the driveway with another dog. I don't feel comfortable with this..







this is what happened randomly yesterday, and got me dragged. I will however firmly and snappily drill Grimm in OB beforehand, march out the door, have throwchain in hand, and chin up, march right past. Grimm gets no chances with this one. Normally, a correction comes if he gives a dog a long look, more than a glance. This time, he had better be thinking of ME.. and not the dog. If I have no time because Grimm launches immediately, things are then pretty grave.









Thank you for your support and ideas, Val. I love Grimm. I want this to work-- I am *determined* to be what he needs. It may just be a 1 or 2 week period where he needs to SEE that I am changed.


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

Patti I am so sorry your Grimm is hurt.

No real advice for you, just wanted to let you know that I am following your training tale and rooting for you guys!!


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## ceardach (Apr 11, 2008)

Taedyn has a similar issue when on leash around other dogs. 

I pay attention to her ears - when her ears are stiff forward and alert towards a dog she gets a correction. When I see her ears start to move to alert position, I tell her "NO!". This can have a series of back and forth as she'll back off, then start to focus on the dog again, then back off with a no, then start to focus again. However, repeatedly saying No is better then having her flip out.

If I don't catch the early warning sign of ear movement and correct it, she moves quickly into flipping out. At that point, it's just managing the bucking bronco at the end of the leash!

I'm not sure at what exact point you are correcting Grimm, but I think finding the earliest warning sign you can and correcting it at that level would be helpful. 



> Quote:Grimm gets no chances with this one. Normally, a correction comes if he gives a dog a long look, more than a glance. This time, he had better be thinking of ME.. and not the dog. If I have no time because Grimm launches immediately, things are then pretty grave.


If you feel as though even a glance towards the trainer's dog is a risk, then you should have that rule at all times. He should be thinking of you at ALL times, not just when the trainer is around the corner. 

If you correct only at long stares you run the risk of correcting when the obsession has already become in place. If you correct one second before he flips out, it may not be as effective because the mental obsession is already in place. Find a signal that happens that is the signal of the onset of mental obsession, not the signal of the onset of a physical outburst. Dogs respond more easily when their mind is open and receptive, but once they've become obsessed with something it's much more difficult to break through and get them to listen to you.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Hi Patti,

Another member of the YES SHE CAN Patti Fan Club hoping that you and Grimm discover the perfect balance of firmness and kindness.

Heaven knows that the love is there.

I am frightened by his injuries but I understand his is recovering well.

bye,
MJ


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

MaryJane, you are the sweetest! Thank you. He is enjoying being well cared-for again.

ThreeDogs, I really appreciate your vote of support!








This is more than I have ever dealt with before, so I am following advice alot here.

Ceardach, just like Taedyne.. you are right. I will be watching his ears, head carriage.. head going more still and stiff and upright is the sign for me, I think. Ears show that "locking on," too. Actually, this is a longstanding habit.







We are working to break it. That is why this is so very difficult. He needs to believe that on walks, a heel means a heel, no matter how much he wants to induge this old habit.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Patti you are on the right frame of thinking now... Just think Alpha bitch, Grimm's very life is dependant on what you want.

Yes you can snuggle some, maybe at the end of a good day when it is time to unwind. Also for good reward, use praise and maybe just a nice little pat. When you guys are working on the walk, I wouldn't over do the priase/reward, tow of my dogs have always look at the over doing thing as a sign they were done training and lost their work rhythem.

Use different tones of your voice. My dogs all know when I use a certain voice there is no question in their mind, it is OB or ELSE. When I use a differnt tone of voice all four of them get silly and wiggly. 

So when you and Grimm are working it is a Firm strict voice and if he starts to act out the voice of I am going to rain **** down on your head if your don't listen. With some dogs they will repond to voice and voice corrections very well, Chey is handler sensitive, so she will rebound faster from a physical correction than a hard verbal.

You are just going to have to work with Grimm and see what he works with best. This is a new Chapter for you guys. 

Val


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

The wounds are healing surprisingly well on Grimm's paw pads. The sweling on his muzzle is still there, but not as bad as it was maybe. I am using an iodine salve the vet gave for his paw pad slices and an infected grass seed thingy on his tummy(I can see already after 1 day, that it is helping the grass seed thing).

Val, you have been such awesome help.







Ever think of a job as a coach?







I now start The Walk here in our hallway.. it ends when I release him (after focus for a moment) after our walk in the same spot.

Tonight: A lady was walking a miniscule black dot. It may have been a guinea pig?? Grimm didn't fire up.. stayed calm







only one glance, and back to heel. Then, we saw a lady walking a white mop dog. Grimm glanced. Then he looked. I threw the throw chain and it startled him. He immediately went back on course heeling, a bit more attentive. Next-- a man suddenly (I can't see well, but Grimm saw this before me I am sure) came along the sidewalk with a West Highland white terrier! Grimm stayed totally calm. I got anxious though (bad me..







but this calm Grimm near other dogs is new to me yet) and casually heeled Grimm along the other side of a big metal road-sand container, the size of a shopping cart. But still-- we basicly passed another dog on the sidewalk!







Grimm TOTALLY calm. Then, while Grimm was having a break rolling in the cool green grass, the lady with the white mop dog came right there along the side walk. Grimm looked causually, but stayed calm. He ate a twig, rolled, knew the dog was coming closer. I decided to heel him off in a paralel direction. No problem.. Grimm was calm. Then, the lady and her dog and me and Grimm schlumped along calmly paralell.... her on sidewalk, us on grass area alongside. We were only about 2 car lengths away!









Tomorrow morning will be tough. It's a set-up. Trainer comes and will SUDDENLY appear with a dog (probably his Giant Schnauzer stud dog the size of Montana) RIGHT ON OUR DRIVEWAY! Or: right around the blind corner (thick hedges growing here) of the driveway to the sidewalk of our building. The front doors here are heavy frosted glass, so it will be a SURPRISE. 

Heck with it. I am The Queen. I own the walk. We *will* walk right by them.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Yea Patti, I am really so so happy for you and Grimm. You are the Quenn, You are the Queen. It will take time for Grimm to understand that he can't just do as he pleases, but he will, you two just have to keep working on it. A year from now you will say, wow look at my wondreful Grimm. 

Trust me though if you slip and need a good cyber kick I will be here for you.


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

Patti, I had rescue dogs (even hyper puppies) sleep for days after coming into a home from a kennel. The kennel is a very stressful environment and dogs probably don't get too much sleep from all the action and barking. I really hope that Grimm was not treated badly while he was in training.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Patti,

You are doing great with summoning your inner alpha!







I don't think will take long for Grimm to realize that there's a new game in town. It sounds like both of you are doing well and that Grimm is responding very well to the new Patti. I hope everything goes ok with tomorrow's surprise meeting...I guess you will be learning to use all of your senses to detect other dogs, just like Grimm!









I know that with Rafi (who has similar issues and thankfully is not as big as Grimm) I have to stay very consistent. If I slack off for one day he becomes the big bouncing greeting machine (and I would be the not very big bouncing person being dragged behind him). Yesterday I was zoning out at the end of our walk and the next thing I know we're on someone's lawn next to their fence and Rafi is happily exchanging kisses with a big lab!







Then he thought he should play chase with the lab with me attached to his leash!







This all happened so quickly! It reminded me that I have to stay hyper-vigilant to what's going on around me and always remind Rafi that I am making decisions!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

MomToBeauandRiley, thank you for sharing your experience. Kinda wondered if all the stimulation kept Grimm from sleeping much. I will say, aside from the mysterious owies, he looks REALLY good.. hard muscles, better coat, very happy guy to have doggy interaction and freedom running all day outdoors. Thank you for your support and input! 

Ruth, I think you are right. It will just take time for Grimm to get it that The New Patti is Queen on all walks.. and at home, too. Great advice about staying alert and aware. I have the feeling for the next month or few, I will be watching the surroundings, watching my dog.. the entire alpha-walk. Wish me rotsa ruck for tomorrow's surprise set-up.







Please give hugs and scritches to Rafi for me.. I love that dog!!


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## ceardach (Apr 11, 2008)

Your latest walk sounds like it went awesome! Keep up the good work!


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## Hellismd (Aug 17, 2007)

Oh Patti - I just read this post and am sick







with worry over Grimm... What a horrible experience for both of you and now dealing with his injuries... I can't imagine - nope can't even think someone would intentionally inflict wounds as a training method.

I am sending tender hugs and kisses (Tessa too)














to Grimm! A big warm hug for you...









I am also sending you support for becoming the new Patti! Big Bold and not to be messed with Patti! I know you can do it!


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfHeck with it. I am The Queen. I own the walk. We *will* walk right by them.


There you go, that's how you need to thinkll!!









Patti, I had to chime in because the thought of you having to give up Grimm actually made my heart hurt for you.

You will succeed, because where would we all be without out your Grimm stories? I've said it before, that I could actually feel the love you have for him everytime I read one of your posts about him and it's so true.

That is what is going to give you the strength and determination to get past this. And get past this you will.

I will be looking forward to your update.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thanks for the cheering on, Ceardach! I will re-read this thread tomorrow morning before taking Grimm down to our "set up."

Holly and TessaWoof-- Hugs to you both!! Grimmi sends slobbers and rolls around looking goofy for Tessa.









ThreeDogs, it makes me heartsick, too. I am putting 110% into this.

Tonight as I was taking a bath, Grimm ambled into the bathroom and stuck his dark, blocky head round the edge of the frosted sliding bathtub door. His forehead displayed massive stacks of velvetty wrinkle-eyebrows, arching over concerned caramel-colored eyes. He gently, warmly kissed my damp shoulder, and I spoke softly to him. Eyebrows wiggled in aknowledgement. Soft snort. He then turned around a few times under the sink, puppy-squeaked, and ka-flopped with a harrumph to the floor, sounding very like a bag of elbows hitting the linoleum... waiting quietly while I enjoyed my back. Every time I peeked out at him, there they were-- stacks and stacks of velvetty eyebrows, and big caramel round eyes under them, watching me. I love that dog.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

And he obviously still loves you even tho the rueles have changed a bit. 

Waiting to hear how Queen Patti's walk goes tomorrow.


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

Don't they know how to push our buttons?
How can you not love them when they do all that charm thing!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thank you for the good thoughts Kathy.







MomtoBeauandRiley, bingo!







It is oh-dark-thirty here in Germany, I am off to bed. I will update what happened tomorrow morning. I am kinda scared







as this is terribly hard-- a set-up where Grimm and I get surprised, right on our own turf, without even time to get ourselves rolling in our me-as-alpha walk. Could also be an element of territoriality to make it even more likely we will have a problem, including from the sudden, surprise nature of this set-up. 

Thanks all for the encouragement, everybody! It means so much to me right now. I am fighting to keep Grimm. I am *Queen* of the walk!!


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Sounds to me like you and Grimm are doing just fine. I cannot add much, but please keep us posted on how the dog is doing.

Ok, one thing. If Grimm is becoming protective of you and your property that is a good sign. German Shepherds have an uncanny ability to recognize the good from the bad.


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

Hi Patti,

I KNOW you are QUEEN of the walk and so will Grim. Before you start out in the morning demand some snappy sits and downs. Project that aura of ROYALTY and do some deep breathing before you start out. Try to mentally picture it going perfectly and picture that big old schnauzer in a poodle clip!







The more you can make your inside calm will pass to Grim. Once you leave your hallway imagine you are sailing along and Grim is perfectly heeling. I'll be home at lunch time to check and read about the VICTORY dance!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

The phone rang, the trainer was down on the street somewhere, and ready for us... with another dog. I put on my cap, got my sunglasses, throw chain, and put Grimm's collar and lead on him (no prong, just a normal chokechain). We did some snappy sits and downs, headed out the apartment door into the main hallway.. and I made sure Grimm knew we were WORKING, immediately. Nothing sloppy nor casual (casual can come later, I hope).

We get outthe main building door, nobody there. So we do a U-turn on the driveway, and another U-turn, and start again down the driveway. BLAMMO!!!!!!! Trainer steps out from behind a hedge with Sir Yaps-a-Lot (actual name is Anton) an irate, indignant Jack Russel, barking his fool head off at us. Grimm starts to return fire with a soft "Woo-Wuh-*.." but gets corrected HARD by me, and then calmly he sails past the terrier, who is no longer barking but is snarfling indignantly under his still-insulted little breath.

Next, We returned to the house. Grimm then got out of control slightly in the foyer as we began to head back outdoors, cos he knew the trainer was there, stuff would be happening, etc. I corrected him firmly, then before we went out, I changed his mindset by doing a snappy heeling routine until he relaxed. Not stressful, but no room for errors allowed-- and he settled better. 

We left the building again, and he was hyper alert, looking for the ticked-off terrier. I corrected him and got his heeling more correct.. and he settled down. We came down the drive way, and went right-- and trainer and terrier came past... Grimm looked once, okay. Looked a second time, and both trainer and I tossed each a throw chain at his shoulders. (very noisy, startling.. but not a heavy chain though) We did several passes along the sidewalk of Grimm and the terrier. No problems. So, trainer went to get another dog.

As I came out of the driveway, a Giant Schnauzer the size of a Boeing 747 strides along up our driveway.. we pass it without even a glance.

Next, Grimm and I come from around the corner where Grimm normally pees, and.... huh... no Schnauzer. We came up the sidewalk towards home, and.. again, no Schnauzer, no trainer.. nothing. I decide we can turn into the driveway when we get there, and th- (!!) Suddenly, cutting us off right in our path, the Schnauzer (with trainer) bursts out from hiding behind a parked van, almost cutting us off at the last second! No reaction from Grimm. Then, a curious backwards peek-- and I correct him. Next few passes with Giant Schnauzer on sidewalk all go great.

Next, a foray into The Zone of Many Fifis. Two offlead toy poodles were on the path ahead. Grimm did fine heeling right by them behaviorally, but his hair did slightly rise up as one butterscotch-colored poodle came rapidly zooming out to check him out. We did another pass of these two loose toy poodles, and his hair was still a TINY bit up, but he was relaxed walking along in heel. 

Next, a totally unexpected surprise. Grimm was heeling off-lead down a deserted lane. A big Old English Sheepdog and handler came along ahead of us. I leashed Grimm, but calmly continued to heel. I watched Grimm. Relaxed, mostly.. but as the other dog passed us, I heard the other handler say something. Grimm peeked twice, but short, at the dog, and kept heeling. i almost corrected for the second peek. Trainer said: The OTHER dog started to get aggressive at Grimm, and Grimm merely watched that he himself would not get bitten as he heeled along.

That's it. My testing and excersises for today were over. I was The Queen of The Walk. We let Grimm run free in a big park. Then we came home. I think I maybe get one more lesson here on our turf with the trainer. But, each walk is a test. Each walk, I must watch Grimm-- correct him-- praise him a bit when he does right, too... he is still learning that I am totally different on walks now.


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## Hellismd (Aug 17, 2007)

you go girl! Queen of the Walk Patti! 

Sounds like you are heading down the right path and I think with your new "Queenness" and persistance, you and Grimm will be able to enjoy your walks.

I am so happy for you!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thank you Holly.. and Miss Tessa! (sending snuggles to the beautiful Tessa!) Right now, each walk is hypervigilence to watch Grimm, watch my surroundings for dogs, watch his reactions, and make split-second decisions about where and when to correct if necessary or not. I will always keep an eye out for dogs & Grimm's reactions, that he never gives more than a casual glance, and never gets a chance to visually "lock on." Please, God.. after a few months of this, let the habit truly be broken, so that our walks can just be a bit more casual!

Sending extra hugs to good-girl Tessa. Holly, you have such a wonderful girl!!







Thank you for your support and ideas.


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## Eve-Lynn (Apr 28, 2008)

Good for you!!!! Hope all keeps going well "Queenie". Keep us posted.


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

Patti!!!























I am so happy for you!!!! 

You are the Queen for sure!!!


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Hey Patti,

Now this is the kind of news that makes you happy to have the internet.

What a great team you and Grimm are!

Mary Jane


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

WOW or WOW Patti, do you realize how far you and Grimm have come in this short time. Way to go, I am so so proud of you. It is just so neat to read your posts. You are the Queen, you are the Queen.

Val


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Val, LinksMom and MaryJane, I honestly don't know if I could have done it without all your encouragement (Val, the butt-kicking so totally helped LOL!!) and advice. CainGSD and BowWowMeow.. thank you guys all so, so much for your help.

I just want to get to the point where I am not needing to be SO hypervigilant, and can relax living with Grimm for once. That idea is new to me.... because for a year, I have been in danger on each walk. Now, we are in a working phase-- where he is learning the new rules. But my hope is that after a few weeks or months, I can, while staying aware and consistant and never letting him sneak in disobedience, eventually have calm walks with my dog for the first time in my life.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Good luck with the hypervigilance on walks. With reactive dogs, that's pretty much the way you HAVE to operate. Always watching the environment and your dog, ready to change your route or otherwise get your dog out of a sticky situation. It's tiring!! But it pays off. You're going to have days that go wonderfully and days that you feel like nothing has changed. But that's all part of the process. It'd difficult for anyone to change habits. Even our dogs.

You and Grimm will get there. I hope you continue to have more successes than setbacks. Good luck.


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## ceardach (Apr 11, 2008)

Awesome!! Keep up the good work!

Once you've done the high-working-mode walks for awhile you'll be able to relax more with it. Even so, it's gotta be so much less stressful now.

Good job, and keep it up


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

Patti and Grimmi









Patti, I think you will also find as your confidence in Grimm's ability to remain neutral goes up the walk will seem less like work. As it becomes second nature to both of you it will seem more natural to constantly be surveying the surroundings for challenges. A bit like being aware of obstacles due to your less than perfect vision. I am so very happy for both of you and gives yourselves a snuggle session.

All hail to the QUEEN of WALK!!!!!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Aweseme job, Patti and Grimm!!!!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Jamie, I hear you.. but, we walked along and at the very last second tonight, I saw a man and dog.. almost collided! Grimm was totally calm. I swerved us to avoid the oncoming pair. Grimm was totally cool and calm. Whew! Not me.









We saw two big dogs in a coupler-leash, walked by a lady, coming right at us on the sidewalk tonight. Grimm and I passed them on the sidewalk, maybe 6 inches between us! He was calm. I was nervous inside.. I need time to get used to success, while still working very hard with him on this, and not letting him slip one bit.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Patti,

Sounds like you and Grimm had another great day! Big pats for both of you!









Maybe you need to start visualizing positive outcomes.









I am off to take Rafi. It is so hot and humid here today he barely has the energy to react to anything!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Nora, what you said really resonates. You sound like you speak from experience.







Ruth, you are right, too. I need to learn that this can work. Sailing past other dogs just blows my mind.. I had never been able to envision this.

More QueenWalks tomorrow LOL! Thanks for all the ideas and support from those who has dealt with stuff like this before!


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

Someone mentioned picturing the walk going perfectly and I think that is a great idea. Everything you feel inside travels down the leash so mental imaging of a perfect, calm trip will help. I also know how hard it can be to get to that calm state. I tend to tap into calm but keep the wrath of MOM will rain on your head mode close by too







. 

Patti, my previous breed before GSD were Chinese Shar Pei and I had females that did not play well with others so I had to learn and develop my own version of QUEEN of the universe....LOL....I just had another name for it







.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Haven't read all the replies, but the one thing that helps me is to remember that - to the dog - you are very tall!

He may be stronger, but he does not know unless you clue him in... LOL.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Anne, your sig line reads "Attitude is everything -- pick a good one!" While I always felt that meant to stay positive, upbeat, and balanced... I can see that applying to dog handling, too! Think about it: Being afraid of a bad outcome on walks means being afraid of the DOG. Far better to think, I own this dog, I love this dog, I do all loving and kind things for this dog.. he will always have all he needs to be safe and happy in his life. He will and should look to me for safety. I am his leader, and I will protect him and LEAD him. My dog, my pack, will be safe with me in charge on walks. Strong, relaxed, calm leaders cause dogs to relax, too. He can trust that I can and will handle anything we may run into... since I am in charge of his wellbeing. I can love him and be a strong leader for him to relax by my side.


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## Lisa&Diesel (Jun 8, 2008)

I am so happy that you and Grim are doing well! Also glad that there is another GSD that likes to spend time on the bathroom floor while you have a bath. Diesel does this all the time, sometimes putting a nose over to lick the bubbles!

Keep doing what you are doing Patti!!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thanks Lisa.. and Diesel, too! (i just love his new picture thread with his doggy buddies!) I am happy with our progress, but this will continue to take work. I can't relax. Okay, not yet, anyway-- ditching a habit is hard, for people and for dogs, too. 

What blows my mind is Grimm being *relaxed* heeling calmly by my side as we pass dogs!! I still can't get over it! Well, I'd better get over it, and _stay working on this with Grimm _anyway, and not let even a hint of the old habit begin to return. In a few months, if all goes according to plan, I may begin to relax somewhat and trust that the training really is taking good effect.


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## Kuklasmom (May 13, 2005)

Patti,

Everyone has given you such <u>terrific</u> advice on this thread, I can only say, "Yep! That's it exactly! You're absolutely right!" as I read through all the posts.

<u>Congratulations</u> to you and Grimm on your excellent progress. You are truly the Queen of the Walk! 

(And by being such a strong leader, I'm sure that you've also made life so much easier, happier, and better for your dear Grimm. Congratulations to the whole team--your hard work is very much worth all the effort!)


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thank you, Madonna and Kukla! (love that name!)







We are still working on it, I am keeping on top of him.. not letting him slip back into old habits. But-- we can walk by other dogs now!







Like I said, lots of ongoing work to keep this training tight. Thank you for your encouragement, Madonna.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Patti you are doing great with Grimm. Just keep up the good work, he will come around, it may take a short time or it may take a long time but I BELIEVE that you two will make it.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Patti,
where was Grimm? I am sorry if I have not followed the whole story, but that sounds very disturbing to me..


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Val, thank you-- your encouragement means SO MUCH to me-- especially right now! Today Grimm looked too intensely at 3 different dogs. I understand he is testing the new rules. I need to lessen the snugglefests at home for now, tighten up general obedience, and catch him the SECOND he looks too long at another dog tomorrow on our walks. Yup-- The QUEEN say NO shenannigans allowed-- PERIOD!! There was no barking, no growling, no lunging-- but too long/intense of a look each time. Tomorrow, less snuggling, more firmness, not allowing any laxity, and especially demanding perfection passing other dogs... while remaining calm and confident myself. I re-read your posts Val, when I need that butt-kicking mixed with encouragement. You are THE BEST coach, ever!! I owe much of my success with Grimm now to you. We both have you to thank!

Paivi, Grimm was at a send-away training. He had pulled me down on the sidewalk, dragged me out into traffic on my back, given me a concussion, gotten me in the hospital-- I needed help from someone and this was the only trainer experienced with problem dogs. The training helped a lot. I am not sure the marks on Grimm were intentional or accidental(kennel injury). We took photos, went to the vet, etc... but the vet was afraid to committ to saying it might be abuse-- the reality that someone who could do such to a dog, could also harm a person, was left unsaid as why she would not commit to a formal complaint. Germany is so different from USA. Hubby and I are on welfar, the money for the trainer was donated... if I had funds available, I would continue training-- with a very different trainer.


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