# Anti-Raw Feeding



## Finale (Jun 20, 2012)

Hello. I've decided to feed my puppy basically an all-raw diet. However, being a very critical and skeptical person I am, I've been doing A LOT of research on this matter.

I am trying to find scientifically-based writings on both pro-raw and anti-raw diet, especially published journals. However, I've basically gotten nothing in both the pro and con side of the argument. Some of the more "in-depth" articles I've found include these:


Science-Based Medicine Raw Meat and Bone Diets for Dogs: It?s Enough to Make You BARF
Raw Dog Food Diet: Benefits and Risks (I pretty much hate WebMD, but it is what it is)

Raw food diets in companion animals: A critical review

The Science Behind Raw Food

http://www.abvma.ca/resources/Raw-Food-Diets-fact-sheet.pdf


Are there any good resources for a raw-diet based that goes really in-depth into the science coupled with independently conducted research or whatnot? Preferably with biologists and such...

Once again, sticking with this diet unless it gives my baby complications. However, this entire debate is reminding me of the entire vegeterianism vs. normal human diet debate...

Thank you!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Unfortunately, no. 

There is no big company that creates and sells raw food, and therefore no studies done to support the diet. 

Do what I did. Speak with wolf biologists and other wildlife biologists. Learn about the diet and nutritional needs of the dog's ancestors. Learn about the anatomy and physiology of the dog, and go from there.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

We can debate until the cows come home.
Everything in this world has pros and cons.
If the dog does well and you do well, and it makes you both happy, then you are feeding the right thing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Not a lot of research because it would not behoove the big food companies to fund it.

That said, I think doing your research is right because it is not as simple as buying chicken leg quarters from wally world and making some veggie mush. "getting it right" in terms of meat and bone ratios and supplying enough ingredients for total nutrition (remember wild canids also DO eat some vegetation)...........

That said, there are folks on the board who have raised enough pups on raw to be a good resource.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I recently started giving my dogs raw once a week to see how it goes. I was so excited when I went and bought everything. I went with the pre made stuff because I couldn't find a decent cost effective meat supplier. I did get some nice beef rib bones and some kind of knuckle bones too. After all of this, they looked at me like I was crazy when I gave it to them...it took them forever to eat it. I can put cottage cheese or yogurt down and they will gulp that down and take it over the raw in a heartbeat One of my dogs wouldn't even eat the meaty bones. But even giving it to them one day of a week I notice the difference in the poop, which oddly enough excites me So I am going to increase it to about 3x a week.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I haven't heard of any 'anti' other than it's expensive, you have to know what you are doing to meet nutrient requirements, etc. I've also heard the 'bones will kill them!!' but that is dismissed by raw feeders as uninformed.

Is there a valid 'anti'? I am too lazy to read the research. LOL. (I'm a student and already reading a lot of heavy stuff right now).


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

If you want factual information about raw feeding, go to K9Kitchen : dog diets raw cooked allergies disease


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

my vet is anti because shes been seeing alot of dogs in lately with bones lodge in them..so far thats the only con ive heard


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What kinds of bones? Are the bones that should be recreational bones that ppl aren't taking away or feeding as RAW? That would be my question for the vet.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I don't ever see posts on the internet about raw bones getting lodged in dogs that are fed raw. And I would think those posts would show up if it is a common thing because I find you get the worst stories on the internet, since people are looking for info and support, right? Hmm not sure. If it were a real risk I would want to not feed raw because a lodged bone sounds like a nightmare scenario. But, I just dont read about it happening.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I doubt there will ever be any actual studies on raw feeding vs kibble because the folks who want such a study don't have the money to fund it, while the folks who do have the money would rather not be told the kibble they sell is "inferior".

Unfortunately, many vets have little to no understanding of what a proper raw diet consists of. My own vet would rather I feed Science Diet, but acknowledges the health of my dogs. I would never take a vet's advice when it comes to general nutrition. 

Also, dogs do not need any vegetables. I think evidence would be in their biology and anatomy. Take a look at their dentition and digestive system. They have no enzymes capable of breaking down cellulose, which is why more often then not you will see veggies go in and come out undigested. That is why people who feed BARF must either cook or blend the veggies they add. My dogs will not eat veggies even if offered. Even my piggy Papillon will not eat veggies. Yet their bloodwork comes back fine every year.

A proper bone by raw diet standards is a raw edible bone, not recreational. Recreational bones, cooked or raw, can be a hazard. Cooked bones are almost always dangerous.


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## NWHeather (Oct 29, 2010)

I've had a few discussions with my Vet about raw feeding, because I have fed raw to my animals (dogs & ferrets) & have seen a huge difference than when feeding just kibble.
I stopped feeding raw because of the cost. I don't have the time & energy to be grinding up my own food for them, packaging, etc. 
I also worry about making sure they're getting a balanced diet. (That's one of my Vet's peeves about raw, is so many people just start throwing chicken legs & such, & calling it good).
Another thing my Vet said she doesn't like about raw is that when dogs get older, they cannot digest bones as well. 
When I fed raw, it was Darwin's Raw, based out of Seattle. They ground all of the ingredients & pre package it, 
I stopped because I was spending $360 month for two GSD's & my ferrets.
Darwin's delivers to your door, once a month. 
They will also talk to your Vet & create modified diets, based on Vet recommendations.
They use human grade ingredients.
The only thing I don't like about Darwin's is the cost, but you get what you pay for.
I'm working on getting back to where I can afford it again for my dogs. 
After explaining all that to my Vet, she gave me her approval, first time since I've been going to her. Her only other concern is safe raw meat handling practices, but after the last visit, she now supports my desire to feed my dogs raw.

Here's their website Darwin's


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> What kinds of bones? Are the bones that should be recreational bones that ppl aren't taking away or feeding as RAW? That would be my question for the vet.


 i didnt ask because im not going to feed raw...but when i first got my puppy i was talking to her about foods and raw diet and she said she has seen alot of dogs lately in that had are fed raw diets and have had bones lodged in digestive tract and she had to do surgury.She didnt say whether she was for or against it..that was all she said because i told her i wasnt going to fed raw but i will ask her more questions next visit


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Grinding the meat forfeits one of the benefits of raw: cleaner teeth. Unless the pet in question has dental issues (ie missing many teeth) or any other problem that makes it hard to eat naturally, there really is no point to grinding. It can even be detrimental, since grinding meat destroys taurine.

Honestly, that pre-packaged stuff is way overpriced. Feeding a nutritionally balanced raw diet is really not as hard as some people think. Obviously more then tossing a leg quarter, but it really isn't all that complicated to make it worth buying pre-packaged unless you really have that kind of money to throw around. Heck, pay me and I'll gladly do it for that price.  Feeding raw costs me less then $40/month for 2 dogs, one little and one big.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

i found this study intersting..kinda warns you if you do feed raw becareful with the poop as it may make humans sick from salmonella Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets


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## NWHeather (Oct 29, 2010)

Verivus said:


> Grinding the meat forfeits one of the benefits of raw: cleaner teeth. Unless the pet in question has dental issues (ie missing many teeth) or any other problem that makes it hard to eat naturally, there really is no point to grinding. It can even be detrimental, since grinding meat destroys taurine.
> 
> Honestly, that pre-packaged stuff is way overpriced. Feeding a nutritionally balanced raw diet is really not as hard as some people think. Obviously more then tossing a leg quarter, but it really isn't all that complicated to make it worth buying pre-packaged unless you really have that kind of money to throw around. Heck, pay me and I'll gladly do it for that price.  Feeding raw costs me less then $40/month for 2 dogs, one little and one big.


Compared to the dogs eating whole meat, that they can rip & chew, true, it's not as effective, but it is still way better than feeding kibble, which leaves a film on their teeth.
The time I was feeding the Darwin's my dogs teeth were whiter/cleaner than they had ever been. 
Do you mind if I ask how you put together your menu? What all do you use to feed? 
Do you make large batches, freeze the protions & thaw out what you need?
Do you buy the ingredients from a grocery store or do you go to a butcher or farm?
How much time does it take to make these balanced meals?



rooandtree said:


> i found this study intersting..kinda warns you if you do feed raw becareful with the poop as it may make humans sick from salmonella Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets


 That was another thing that another Vet I used to go to expressed concern over, but he said as long as you're being careful, proper handling, he's in support of raw feeding.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I always hear about how complicated it is to feed raw, and how everything has to be so perfectly balanced......and I always wonder when it became more difficult to properly feed a dog than to feed a kid?? 

I've been feeding raw since 1993. Between the raw food + drastically reducing vaccinations, my vet bills have plummeted.....even for the original cross-over dogs. Stuff still happens.....dogs that are genetically predisposed to bloat can still bloat, and it won't prevent all cancer. But I'm very happy with the overall health of my dogs. Tho I have to say, the current group does come from lines with excellent longevity! Ianna is 14 and still chasing squirrels....her half sister lived to 16 years 8 months, and was also an active senior citizen.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

NWHeather said:


> Do you mind if I ask how you put together your menu? What all do you use to feed?
> Do you make large batches, freeze the protions & thaw out what you need?
> Do you buy the ingredients from a grocery store or do you go to a butcher or farm?
> How much time does it take to make these balanced meals?.


I don't have a set menu. They get whatever I pull from the freezer. Staples are beef, chicken, and pork. They also get lamb and bison on a less regular basis, but often enough. I also give tripe, occasionally some fish, and whatever else I happen to get my hands on (rabbit, duck, elk, etc).

I typically buy in bulk (60lbs+) of different cuts and proteins through my co-op. Buying from a grocery store would be ridiculously expensive. It helps to have a dog dedicated freezer to get the cheapest price. I do not put things in meal portions, I just stuff freezer bags and toss it into the freezer. I pull a random bag whenever I need more food. I have bone-in bags and boneless bags, so it's easy to work out. I freeze organs in ice cube trays according to required daily amts and dole out accordingly. If I had 2 big dogs I probably wouldn't even bother with the ice cube trays, but as it is I have to. 

When putting away food it might take me a half hour. Filling ice cube trays maybe an hour or two minus freeze time depending on how many trays I feel like filling. Once everything is put away, actually feeding them takes maybe 1-2 minutes more then a kibble feeding. My dogs are only fed in their crates so clean-up is minimal.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Finale said:


> Hello. I've decided to feed my puppy basically an all-raw diet. However, being a very critical and skeptical person I am, I've been doing A LOT of research on this matter.
> 
> I am trying to find scientifically-based writings on both pro-raw and anti-raw diet, especially published journals. However, I've basically gotten nothing in both the pro and con side of the argument. Some of the more "in-depth" articles I've found include these:
> 
> ...


My comments above.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

rooandtree said:


> i found this study intersting..kinda warns you if you do feed raw becareful with the poop as it may make humans sick from salmonella Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets


Why would they even think it necessary to do this kind of study?
Do you know anyone who is _not _careful with poo? :crazy:


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

The first thing I would do is find a holistic vet. It's amazing that oour old vet was pushing Science Diet and our new vet (holistic) believes in raw feeding, but is not shy about saying that it might not be for all dogs. if raw isn't an option then she suggest home cooking. Dr. Becker has a great book out on feeding your animals a natural diet. My vet is however a proponent of feeding a balanced diet. Right now we are feeding Vital Essential raw patties and Bravo. The puppyis getting some kibble with raw and Rocco is getting all raw and whatever kibble he can steal from the puppy

I am tempted to buy a grinder and mix my own food, but still doing some research. The cost for pre-made is astronomical and feeding chicken backs and such is not feasible in the house. I have been feeding the dogs in the crates right now which seems to work out fine for the pre-made raw.

Rocco seems to be scratching less since we added locally harvested organic honey and the quercitin. I also changed out the Bendryl to Claritin. I'm going to give it another couple of weeks to see what happens.

Mike


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Mcap said:


> T
> I am tempted to buy a grinder and mix my own food, but still doing some research. The cost for pre-made is astronomical and feeding chicken backs and such is not feasible in the house. I have been feeding the dogs in the crates right now which seems to work out fine for the pre-made raw.


You can't feed in the yard or on a porch?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mcap said:


> I am tempted to buy a grinder and mix my own food, but still doing some research. The cost for pre-made is astronomical and feeding chicken backs and such is not feasible in the house. I have been feeding the dogs in the crates right now which seems to work out fine for the pre-made raw.


Why grind? And feed the whole food in the crates too! It's better for them to chew their food.


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## TimberGSD2 (Nov 8, 2011)

I don't grind anything. I might cut it into smaller hunks but I just weigh it and throw it in the bowl. Keeps them from gulping. And they take their time eating. 

I also feed everyone in a crate. They keep the crate clean, minimal mess, everyone stays away from everyone. Win win.


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