# A video showing dominance/submission that I made



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

A club member was unclear about her dogs interactions so I offered to show her dominance/submissive behaviors at my house. I put her in the drivers seat with a bowl of food so she could see the interactions as I pointed them out. I figured I'd then record some of it for anyones benefit on here. Of course feel free to dispute everything I annotate in the video lol as I am sure thats coming anyway.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Pack dynamics...very interesting.

I only have one dog, my parents have 3 and there is definitely a hierarchy and settle things that I think most owners would overlook, but there's meaning in almost every gesture.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If they were my dogs, I'd never let things progress like that. 
I've heard it said the worst aggressors are sometimes social climbers. The confident alpha doesn't need to fight to win it's position. Which means, quite possibly, the snarling dog isn't the alpha at all. 

That snarling dog would have to sit and wait on one side. 
Why isn't the owner saying something to the dog?? Is that how she normally is??

One of the least "dominant" dogs of our pack "play attacks" the alpha girl. The alpha girl ignores it completely - it's not worth her time. The little dog play attacks because it's not a full on attack, it's like a "show" of attack (play).


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I agree that would never have been allowed to occur at my house. Jager is just being a bully.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> If they were my dogs, I'd never let things progress like that.
> I've heard it said the worst aggressors are sometimes social climbers. The confident alpha doesn't need to fight to win it's position. Which means, quite possibly, the snarling dog isn't the alpha at all.
> 
> That snarling dog would have to sit and wait on one side.
> ...


First, I am the owner. The foster dog is the new dog in the pack that initially had no idea how to interact with other dogs and defaulted to fear-aggression. He also bowed up at me a few times before he understood the nature of our relationship. Major leaps forward in his behavior due largely to me cautiously allowing nature to run its course.

What Jäger is doing is not aggression, it is dominant behavior. When the other dogs overstep their bounds he reminds them of their lower position. In turn, Katya does this to Aska (not in the video) as she is the dominant female of the house. Not allowing dogs to measure each other and sort things out is more problematic in my opinion. This is totally different than a bully. All the dogs "play attack" Jäger and he doesn't respond with dominant posturing in that case. Food will, because the rituals around food are very important parts of dog's social interactions. You did not see any fighting in the video, nor was there any risk of a fight breaking out. You saw the dogs communicating with each other, nothing more. It is the subtle posturing that communicates challenges to authority or refusal to submit and this is what I meant to point out in the video.

I have 4 dogs living in peace that eat, sleep, and play together. No fights. So, clearly you could agree there must be some measure of merit in my methods.

"worst aggressors are sometimes social climbers". True, in that this is how dominant dogs rise to the alpha position, if you replace "worst aggressors" with "most dominant". This is just nature. The same things happen in all social animals, including humans (the military, the corporate world, etc). The most aggressive (in many senses of the word) always become the most dominant


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> I agree that would never have been allowed to occur at my house. Jager is just being a bully.


If you look close, you'll notice he does not try to take food from Koal or food she is handing to Koal. A bully would. Its a fine (and arbitrary) line where you divide "bully" from "dominant", but it is clear in this video Jäger is only clearly claiming his space. 

By "not allowing it", you're only ensuring it happens when you are not present to do anything about it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well my feeling on it is...a dog showing his teeth and snarling is eventually going to meet a dog who can whip it's behind, or who _thinks_ it can...and the "underdog" will retaliate. 

We go very slow with foster intros for that reason, primarily.



> By "not allowing it", you're only ensuring it happens when you are not present to do anything about it.


That's why God created crates :thumbup:


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Same behavior in wolves


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Well my feeling on it is...a dog showing his teeth and snarling is eventually going to meet a dog who can whip it's behind, or who _thinks_ it can...and the "underdog" will retaliate.
> 
> We go very slow with foster intros for that reason, primarily.
> 
> ...


I don't need crates  Thats why God created social hierarchies.

We have had zero fights with the foster... Zero.

Strong nerved confident dogs only fight in a social context when their dominant nature is so close as to prevent either dog from submitting. Anytime there is a reasonable difference in the level of dominant nature/personality it is resolved through these sort of ritual behaviors. Dogs do it, male lions fight violently (but do not extend their claws... because its a ritual no matter how violent it looks), nearly every pack animal has specific rituals to maintain a social order. The above videos show dog rituals clearly.

Jäger acted submissively to a neighbors 12 year old neutered lab (who had not a dominant bone in him). Why? dunno. He just decided to show submissive "puppy like" behavior to this old dog. Always did until he passed from cancer. Jäger has never been in a dog fight, FYI.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Problem is, our dogs are not wolves. WE are the pack leaders, not they. 
That snarling behavior is going to get the dog's behind whipped at some point -you say not correcting it is okay because "they'll do it when your back is turned".

My experience is, a sneaky dog will wait until your back is turned and retaliate on the snarling dog. 

Just behavior we nip in the bud here. Always. Every time.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> If you look close, you'll notice he does not try to take food from Koal or food she is handing to Koal. A bully would. Its a fine (and arbitrary) line where you divide "bully" from "dominant", but it is clear in this video Jäger is only clearly claiming his space.
> 
> By "not allowing it", you're only ensuring it happens when you are not present to do anything about it.


If you look closely, he's still lifting lip and showing teeth when it's Koal's turn. Also, Koal looked away much more than you pointed out and wasn't challenging Jager (at least not from that angle). 

By "not allowing it", I also have at least 4 dogs (sometimes up to 6) living peacefully together getting high value treats side by side just like in your video with no fights or lip raising because they respect each other and don't have to show "dominance" over every day things.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> By "not allowing it", I also have at least 4 dogs (sometimes up to 6) living peacefully together getting high value treats side by side just like in your video with no fights or lip raising because they respect each other and don't have to show "dominance" over every day things.


:thumbup: My dogs also do not feel they have to throw down every treat or meal time.




> If you look closely, he's still lifting lip and showing teeth when it's Koal's turn. Also, Koal looked away much more than you pointed out and wasn't challenging Jager (at least not from that angle).


If you think about it, it's even worse for Jager's state of mind because HE has now told the foster, "you can't have any, you're an underling!" yet you give the underling the treat. I see the look of mild anxiety when you do give the underling the treat. 

You put the pants on the dog, then remove them when you treat the underling. By the dog's terms, that should not be happening. 

If you want your dogs to think they are in charge (when they honestly are not) and confuse them about hierarchy's, you've succeeded :shrug:

And that's why we, as the dog's leaders, should nip that type thing in the bud.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Problem is, our dogs are not wolves. WE are the pack leaders, not they.
> That snarling behavior is going to get the dog's behind whipped at some point -you say not correcting it is okay because "they'll do it when your back is turned".
> 
> My experience is, a sneaky dog will wait until your back is turned and retaliate on the snarling dog.
> ...


The behaviors are remarkably close. None of the dogs believe they rule over the humans. Even then, if you watch closely, Jäger stops showing teeth at Koal when he sees the girl is giving Koal the food and not him. That is an acknowledgment & submission to her and she is just visiting. 

In my experience when I let them establish their social standing, I don't need to worry about any sort of aggression "behind my back"... they already have clearly defined their interrelationships.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> If you look closely, he's still lifting lip and showing teeth when it's Koal's turn. Also, Koal looked away much more than you pointed out and wasn't challenging Jager (at least not from that angle).
> 
> By "not allowing it", I also have at least 4 dogs (sometimes up to 6) living peacefully together getting high value treats side by side just like in your video with no fights or lip raising because they respect each other and don't have to show "dominance" over every day things.


Like I said, I've never had any fights with the foster or Jäger. I frequently have as many as 4 - 5 more dogs in the house from our club, all roaming free. No fights. 

Lip curling, growling, barking, posturing... this is the language of the dog. By disallowing any of it you are not allowing them to communicate.

You can't see in the video, but Koal sometimes "quasi submits".. he turns his head a little but maintains eye contact in a half-arsed submission and often immediately resumes posturing if he thinks he can get away with it. You can see this improve over the course of this video alone. Eye contact IS challenging. First step of a challenge sequence


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> The behaviors are remarkably close.


To an extent but the problem is, the wolf studies they did were on captive wolves, an artificial set up at best. When observed in the wild, there's far less common about our domesticated dogs and wolves. 

Temple Grandin speaks of this and also cites studies that our dogs don't live in anything remotely close to a wolf pack, captive or wild. 

Being the leader of your dog is the most important thing. You set the boundaries and the dogs need to live by it.

Our dogs aren't wolves, and they need to follow our rules. Snarling and being a bully simply aren't allowed in my home.



> Lip curling, growling, barking, posturing... this is the language of the dog. By disallowing any of it you are not allowing them to communicate.


It's artificial and designed by us, so why would they need to do all this? Because you brought them in the house, you still need to make them follow _your_ rules. To do less only confuses and distresses the dogs who really shouldn't be put in the position of designing pack order.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Here you can see a better picture of the fosters insecurity a month earlier. Notice how he is the only dog hackled and showing aggressive posture, and trying to bully albeit unsure of himself.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm well versed in canine communication and behavior. Well aware of stress signals, calming signals, posturing etc. Again, my dogs communicate with each other, fosters and boarders quite often and they all respect each other without having to constantly remind the "underlings" of who is boss. 

I'm glad it works in your house. It's not allowed in mine. And I sincerely hope that no one without experience in dog behavior tries to recreate that scenario.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> :thumbup: My dogs also do not feel they have to throw down every treat or meal time.
> 
> If you think about it, it's even worse for Jager's state of mind because HE has now told the foster, "you can't have any, you're an underling!" yet you give the underling the treat. I see the look of mild anxiety when you do give the underling the treat.
> 
> ...


The dogs never were close to a fight. Trust me I know a great deal about reading a dog and knowing what their intent is.

Close, but he is saying "you can't have *my* treats" Not once do you see him attempt to take Katya's or Koal's treats. He certainly is in range had he wanted to. Watch how many times treats are given to others and he doesn't intervene.

Anyone around me knows we have a *very* clear pack structure and everyone clearly knows their place. 

FYI, I'm not in the video


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We have 9 dogs and up to 12 dogs living together at once. 
I can watch all the vids or I can simply state, we don't allow that kind of thing at our home. I see it all day here, too, and we still don't allow it. 

What about the day you bring in a dog that can whip your dog's behind? Because if it hasn't happened yet, it will happen. 

The main thing with dog hierarchy I've learned over the years is it's very fluid and always changing.



> And I sincerely hope that no one without experience in dog behavior tries to react that scenario.


:thumbup:

Our dogs don't roam around unfenced daily seeking their live meals. They don't breed rampantly with each other and they don't eat deer and moose and other live game they must bring down and kill.
So to think dogs need to design their own pack structure is erroneous. 

Wolves have pack orders and hierarchies for a reason, that reason being, hunting, survival and breeding rights.
If your dogs do the above, fine, let them make their own structures. 

If you feed them in a bowl, if you bathe them and train them, then take over the decision making process of who eats first, etc. as well :thumbup:


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> I'm well versed in canine communication and behavior. Well aware of stress signals, calming signals, posturing etc. Again, my dogs communicate with each other, fosters and boarders quite often and they all respect each other without having to constantly remind the "underlings" of who is boss.
> 
> I'm glad it works in your house. It's not allowed in mine. And I sincerely hope that no one without experience in dog behavior tries to react that scenario.


You can't recreate it.. the dogs are the dogs. I can't make a dog not be socially dominant, I can only force him to hold it in... I believe that is unnatural and unhealthy. I can change them no more than I can make the foster choose to try to fill the alpha role.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> To an extent but the problem is, the wolf studies they did were on captive wolves, an artificial set up at best. When observed in the wild, there's far less common about our domesticated dogs and wolves.
> 
> Temple Grandin speaks of this and also cites studies that our dogs don't live in anything remotely close to a wolf pack, captive or wild.
> 
> ...


We aren't talking about the dogs' interactions with ME, this is about their interactions. I don't need any advice on how to "be a leader" lol. My dogs, foster included, find great comfort in knowing their place and knowing the rules. Each dog decides his own place relative to each other dog. The human leader or dog pack leader doesn't dictate the ordering to every one lol

So how do dogs naturally communicate then? If we have somehow artificially created their current communication paths.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> We have 9 dogs and up to 12 dogs living together at once.
> I can watch all the vids or I can simply state, we don't allow that kind of thing at our home. I see it all day here, too, and we still don't allow it.
> 
> What about the day you bring in a dog that can whip your dog's behind? Because if it hasn't happened yet, it will happen.
> ...


I didn't know we could so easily overrule millions of years of evolution lol. 

Like I said, if a bigger more dominant dog comes in the house, Jäger would recognize and submit to that.

"I see it all day here, too, and we still don't allow it." Seems they don't respect your wishes if you don't allow it but it continues "all day" anyway.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

They don't get to decide who does what, it is that simple. If they guard it, they lose it.
Because at some point your dog is going to meet another who is bigger and badder and who will take it out, or try to.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yours does all day, apparently, is there a difference?

Mine aren't baring teeth and snarling at each other. They use other body language, which I notice and am able to deter. Even when getting treats, I take control of the situation and we don't have that snarling and lip curling going on.

You either allow it, or not :shrug:


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Yours does all day, apparently, is there a difference?
> 
> Mine aren't baring teeth and snarling at each other. They use other body language, which I notice and am able to deter. Even when getting treats, I take control of the situation and we don't have that snarling and lip curling going on.
> 
> You either allow it, or not :shrug:


who said mine do all day? when one encroaches on another dogs space they do, even then generally only over food or my affection. 

Apparently you allow it but can't enforce it. Just because you won't allow teeth showing doesn't mean they won't just communicate by alternate means. Eventually they find something subtle enough that you can't spot it, and your attempt to shutdown all communication ultimately fails anyway. I allow it. I don't allow fighting.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BTW..."you guard it, you lose it" teaches the dog's consequences for trying to guard things, and we are able to leave any manner of toys down without fighting. I haven't progressed to treats but my own dogs can eat next to each other without fighting because they trust we're in charge.

I allow them to communicate all they want. That's not what the issue is, it's what the communication ultimately progresses to.



> when one encroaches on another dogs space they do,


Ah but your foster wasn't in your dog's space. And not to mention...when dogs are allowed to behave like Jager is, they are a classic example of..."give them an inch, they take a mile". 
Since dogs are the ultimate opportunists, this becomes disastrous real quick.

But...glad to hear your dogs are managed so well. I'm obviously wasting my time in this thread, so I'll bid it adieu.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> BTW..."you guard it, you lose it" teaches the dog's consequences for trying to guard things, and we are able to leave any manner of toys down without fighting. I haven't progressed to treats but my own dogs can eat next to each other without fighting because they trust we're in charge.


"you guard it, you lose it" teaches the dog you are a bully and will share nothing.

great that you don't have fighting... like I said, I don't either. yeah.. and mine can eat all side by side as well, or I can out a hamburger in one dogs mouth in the presence of another dog immediately nearby. Or I can put a large bowl full of water and they can drink together. Or a cutting board and they call can lick it together. So its not like your methods (which work fine for you, congrats) are in any way more effective than mine. You're not able to do anything I'm not, so why keep making statements loosely implying the contrary?

Bonus of my method? I don't have to correct my dogs like you say you have to.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Personally I won't push a certain hierarchy on my dogs, the dominant dog gets to be the dominant dog. Havoc was dominant over my 11 yo by the time he was 6 months old, he was also dominant over my other intact male who is 2 years older than him. That being said I don't let them "sort out issues on their own" and I don't let Havoc bully. Havoc loves to bully, it makes him feel good to posture over the other dogs, take their stuff, claim areas etc. I never allow it. He is an idiot and in a "natural" environment him and Odin would NOT be living together, one of them would leave. I would consider the behavior in the video bullying and I wouldn't allow it. If I am hand feeding my dogs I expect them to sit nicely and ignore eachother! I don't care if Havoc doesn't like what another dog might be doing, I'm the boss and its my call whether or not what the other dog is doing is inappropriate!

BUUUUT, if I wasn't the one doing the feeding I am 100% certain that Odin would not go within 10 feet of Havoc in that situation and Havoc wouldn't allow him to. I am the only one who Havoc has enough repect for that he would relinquish control in that situation.

Very interesting video and discussion though...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> BTW..."you guard it, you lose it" teaches the dog's consequences for trying to guard things, and we are able to leave any manner of toys down without fighting. I haven't progressed to treats but my own dogs can eat next to each other without fighting because they trust we're in charge.
> 
> I allow them to communicate all they want. That's not what the issue is, it's what the communication ultimately progresses to.
> 
> ...


And yet, we don't have this problem you say we have lol.. odd... perhaps, just perhaps, your logic is not absolutely correct? Perhaps your path is not the only way?


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I found this video to be very interesting and informative. Thanks for posting it. I do believe that trying to suppress the natural social structure and hierarchy among dogs is detrimental. 

Chloe, (10 pound rat terrier) is dominant over Balen. I do not correct Chloe when she show teeth or snarls at Balen for whatever reason. Its her way to communicate and her way of letting Balen know what is acceptable to her and what is not. There has never been a fight, and they get along beautifully.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

hunterisgreat said:


> I can out a hamburger in one dogs mouth in the presence of another dog immediately nearby.


Off topic- It's amazing what some people can train, and what others can't. For example, I've trained a very strong recall. I can recall my dog off just about everything I've tried. But I can't get her to out for the life of me. Outting a hamburger? Major props, sir. Major props! :toasting:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'd love to have Chris's, Lisa's and Cliff's take on this video. What is the difference between dominance and resource guarding?

The video clearly shows Kohl being submissive to Jager but is Jager really being dominant? Or is he resource guarding from Kohl because he views him as a threat to his treat.

What this reminded me of is when Sierra get to close to me and Jax reacts or Jax gets to close to Scott and Sierra reacts. And that I know is resource guarding.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

This is pre-foster, but so you understand the difference between bullying (taking everything) and simply claiming what is rightfully theirs. You'll see mutual respect among all dogs.

Katya didn't feel well, but guarded her bowl for hours. Jäger patiently waits. If he approached, she growled, I allowed it, and he respected that it was hers.





And statements on the internet are next to useless, so here is proof we all eat together with no issues.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> "you guard it, you lose it" teaches the dog you are a bully and will share nothing.


Agreed!!!!! I found this out quickly with Jax. She escalated her guarding against the other dog though, not me, when I took the toy away because she was guarding it. Taking it away only makes them guard more. Changing their mindset on whether they feel the need to guard is the key.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Again, I only have one dog but have observed my parents three dogs together. My dad is not dog savvy, never spent time on a computer for anything, his experience is with his own dogs that he has raised over the last 35 + years...some hunting dogs, most companions.

The few times he has stepped in to correct a dog for being snarky with the other actually resulted in a nasty dog fight, him getting stitches in his hand for then trying to break it up (bad move). When he doesn't step in an eye flick, curled lip, etc from the dog to the other offending dog "enough" has stopped the behaviour, no physical contact or fighting dogs. Now I don't want to give the impression his dogs are always in conflict, they for the most part live peacefully together in the house, but every once in a while....


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yeah, but where's the video proof that your dog can out a hamburger???


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I'd love to have Chris's, Lisa's and Cliff's take on this video. What is the difference between dominance and resource guarding?
> 
> The video clearly shows Kohl being submissive to Jager but is Jager really being dominant? Or is he resource guarding from Kohl because he views him as a threat to his treat.
> 
> What this reminded me of is when Sierra get to close to me and Jax reacts or Jax gets to close to Scott and Sierra reacts. And that I know is resource guarding.


If it were bullying, he would try to take all the treats. See the above video and you can see he doesn't try to take from other dogs when he knows full well it is not his. You can even see a few times when Jager thinks the treat is his (mind you their heads are maybe 12 inches apart) and shows a tooth or two, but when the hand is clearly going to Koal, the posture from Jager stops. I tried to point that out in the video atleast once.

In parts of the video he is being submissive, in parts he is not. Eye contact is a challenge. Koal has only recently begun appropriate social behavior. Initially any other dog moving with any sort of excitement got fully hackles from Koal and fear nipping regardless of why the dog was excited... I could be interacting with one of mine and he'd show inappropriate behavior at them (or even me). He is dramatically better but still shows some confusion as to social behavior, sometimes... such as in this video when he doesn't submit and Jäger moves to a nip correction (the don't even make contact). Most people do not understand what they are watching which is why I tried to comment as much as possible what was happening.

Consider Katya's consistent submissive behavior, and couple that with the video playing in the yard. Clearly she is not fearful of him... they play quite rough together. What you see in her in the video is not fear, but normal natural submission to him. Katya does what Jäger when she interacts similarly with Aska. Aska submits readily to Katya.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

KristiM said:


> Personally I won't push a certain hierarchy on my dogs, the dominant dog gets to be the dominant dog.





PatchonGSD said:


> I do believe that trying to suppress the natural social structure and hierarchy among dogs is detrimental.


Just to be clear... not allowing behavior such as snarling and showing teeth when not threatened does not equal forcing an unnatural heirarchy.

Heirarchy with dogs is fluid. What is important to one dog, may not be important to another. For example, my affection is very important to Raven and Kaiser but less so to Holly so she is not willing to "show dominance" for that resource. Holly and Kaiser are equal in food and toy drive, Raven is lower and so she is not willing to "show dominance" for those resources. 

Kaiser is extremely confident in his place and abilities and doesn't show dominance over much and ignores other dogs who try to push him around unless they are an actual threat and even then, he is very fair in his corrections, diffuses any attempts to fight and never uses his teeth to accomplish settling another dog down.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

But the question remains...why does Jager feel challenged? He wouldn't be reacting if he didn't feel he needed to guard HIS treat. Is it because Koal was showing inappropriate behavior prior to this and Jager had to correct him?

I'm not disagreeing on the dominance/submissive. I'm actually not disagreeing about anything. Jager could understand perfectly what is in his food bowl is his and what is in Koal's is not. It's obvious he is only guarding the treats that are coming to him and when Koal gets to close. I'm questioning the motives behind the behavior in this particular situation.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> But the question remains...why does Jager feel challenged? He wouldn't be reacting if he didn't feel he needed to guard HIS treat. Is it because Koal was showing inappropriate behavior prior to this and Jager had to correct him?
> 
> I'm not disagreeing on the dominance/submissive. I'm actually not disagreeing about anything. Jager could understand perfectly what is in his food bowl is his and what is in Koal's is not. It's obvious he is only guarding the treats that are coming to him and when Koal gets to close. I'm questioning the motives behind the behavior in this particular situation.


Partly because Koal has a history of not respecting other dogs and so jäger is "extra clear" with him, and partially doesn't fully understand how to communicate submission or "in really not gonna try and ninja that away from you". Notice not one display at Katya. Ill record tonight them eating as close as possible from my hand in the same manner. They have an established mutual respect and so the posturing rarely happens... And it goes both ways with them depending on who is "in the wrong".


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have three bigger dogs and this behavior is not allowed. They can sit next to each other and take treats with no problems. I often have other dogs in the house too and I have never had any issues. If one of my dogs pulled this I would be terrified to let another dog in the house, because that dog coming in might not put up with it. If a dog like the aggressive one came into my house and did this, my older dog would not put up with it. She wouldn't start something, but she would finish it. I kinda think all of my dogs would not put up with it, why should they?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

And yet, my trust in evolutions design continues to work without issue. Between me trying to decide what's best and putting faith in natures design I tend to lean to natures design knowing I cannot possibly be better informed or have a more mature solution


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## Sarayer (Nov 26, 2012)

I think this has been said in many ways but not exactly like this.. We understand you are the leader to your dogs okay nothing wrong there, but with that said they should have enough confidence in you to know they are all equal and 'you' will take care of them. This dog may not harm you and allow you to do what you want but he does not trust you with his life or care, therefore he is defending himself and making sure the other dogs know he is ontop out of insecurities from being allowed to do so.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Just to be clear... not allowing behavior such as snarling and showing teeth when not threatened does not equal forcing an unnatural heirarchy.


Yes, this was the other part of my reply:

That being said I don't let them "sort out issues on their own" and I don't let Havoc bully. Havoc loves to bully, it makes him feel good to posture over the other dogs, take their stuff, claim areas etc. *I never allow it.* He is an idiot and in a "natural" environment him and Odin would NOT be living together, one of them would leave. I would consider the behavior in the video bullying and I wouldn't allow it. If I am hand feeding my dogs I expect them to sit nicely and ignore eachother! I don't care if Havoc doesn't like what another dog might be doing, *I'm the boss and its my call whether or not what the other dog is doing is inappropriate!*

To me Jager was bullying. But I don't know either dogs. 

What would Jager's behavior be like if *you* were giving out the food? Would it change since he has more respect over your control of the situation?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Sarayer said:


> I think this has been said in many ways but not exactly like this.. We understand you are the leader to your dogs okay nothing wrong there, but with that said they should have enough confidence in you to know they are all equal and 'you' will take care of them. This dog may not harm you and allow you to do what you want but he does not trust you with his life or care, therefore he is defending himself and making sure the other dogs know he is ontop out of insecurities from being allowed to do so.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


There is the fine line that is not understood... They are not all equal. No two dogs are. They *always* sort out who is more dominant. As do people in social settings. Go sit in a bar for a night and you will see countless people consciencesly and subconsciously sizing each other up. 

I quite confidently assure you Jäger has such confidence and dedication he would fight and die in my defense, and I take great measures so ensure he knows and believes he would never be fighting alone. Jäger, in my and others opinion, is the ideal of strong nerve and confidence. 

Such bold statements from someone who does not know the dogs lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I haven't read the whole thread but to say the video is showing "dominance" and "submission" is kind of vague, IMO. What I see is one dog that is resource guarding food and two dogs that are luckily letting him act like that and not giving it back to him. I won't say don't allow it because their your dogs and obviously things are not escalating but you're lucky that one dog can play the bully and the others just take it. Would NOT have gone down like that here! I don't necessarily think resource guarding is all bad (at least not for a strong male GSD) but having more than one of those in the house, I don't really care what order my dogs line themselves up in but *I* am on the top and don't allow resource guarding of me or things that belong to "me" (things in my hands). Toys, food bowls, killing an animal...OK dogs can snark or show teeth to each other but trying to say who gets what's in *my* hands...oh yeah right buddy!


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## kelina (Nov 17, 2012)

hunterisgreat said:


> I don't need crates


I don't crate either  dont see the need.

Your video is very beneficial for those who are trying to find the diff. Between dominance or bully/aggression

Your dogs are beautiful either way  those teeeth!!!!!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Liesje said:


> What I see is one dog that is resource guarding food and two dogs that are luckily letting him act like that and not giving it back to him.


Resource guarding and getting rewarded for it.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

This isn't diected at anyone on particular....but I hate how any kind of "different" behavior displayed by a dog is always considered "insecurity", or "acting out of fear". That seems to be everyone's simple way to explain ANY kind of aggressive behavior. I refuse to believe that dogs are THAT basic. Sometimes a dog acts like an idiot becasue he is an idiot!!! I just don't see Jager acting scared or insecure, sorry. Rant over


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KristiM said:


> This isn't diected at anyone on particular....but I hate how any kind of "different" behavior displayed by a dog is always considered "insecurity", or "acting out of fear". That seems to be everyone's simple way to explain ANY kind of aggressive behavior. I refuse to believe that dogs are THAT basic. Sometimes a dog acts like an a** becasue he is an a**!!! I just don't see Jager acting scared or insecure, sorry. Rant over


I agree. I don't really see anything terrible about his behavior in the video I just think that Hunter would be approaching it *very* differently if he had TWO Jaegers instead of a Jaeger and a Katya, and I just personally don't like/don't allow my dogs to decide who gets what out of my own hands.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

KristiM said:


> This isn't diected at anyone on particular....but I hate how any kind of "different" behavior displayed by a dog is always considered "insecurity", or "acting out of fear". That seems to be everyone's simple way to explain ANY kind of aggressive behavior. I refuse to believe that dogs are THAT basic. Sometimes a dog acts like an a** becasue he is an a**!!! I just don't see Jager acting scared or insecure, sorry. Rant over


People pigeon hole everything into the schema that they understand. The problem is that their schema cannot accurately express reality. Resource guarding is natural and appropriate so long as proper respect is paid to authority *that they recognize*. Anyone who thinks they are boss and all dogs under them are equal is woefully naive. 

You cannot have a strong confident dog who also cowers to protect what he understands is his or assert himself in this world. His submission to his handler is a testimony to his clear relationship with and bid ability to the handler as well as the handlers firm but *fair* authority, and his refusal to submit to allow another (human or dog) to encroach is a testimony to his confidence and strong nerve. 

I so wish could share my private videos so others could see what kind of dog jäger truly is :-/


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I agree. I don't really see anything terrible about his behavior in the video I just think that Hunter would be approaching it *very* differently if he had TWO Jaegers instead of a Jaeger and a Katya, and I just personally don't like/don't allow my dogs to decide who gets what out of my own hands.


If you look, the woman decided who got what... Look closely. Not once did *any* dog dispute her. Not once!

with two identical dogs, you'll have a fight until fate favors one and the other submits. With two identical dogs, I'd react quite differently


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Resource guarding and getting rewarded for it.


Explain why the resource is guarded after it has been consumed lol


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> Explain why the resource is guarded after it has been consumed lol


There is an entire bowl of resource there, Hunter.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Resource guarding and getting rewarded for it.


Lol that was my first thought too. Would be a way to shape a "show me your teeth" trick I guess.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> If you look, the woman decided who got what... Look closely. Not once did *any* dog dispute her. Not once!
> 
> with two identical dogs, you'll have a fight until fate favors one and the other submits. With two identical dogs, I'd react quite differently


Well she gave Jaeger food for snarling, not that it really matters (since it didn't escalate and I doubt he'd quit snarling if she hadn't given him the food) but I guess the alpha bitch in me would say "hey! yeah right you little *******" LOL. But around here I tend to feed and dole out treats/bones/raw in order of hierarchy anyway, so the "top" dog doesn't even waste time snarling at other dogs like that, he already knows he's the top and getting his first. The other dogs literally wait in line. The foster dogs always challenge this but learn pretty fast.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i betcha some weirdos accidently stumble across that vid in thread title.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

x11 said:


> i betcha some weirdos accidently stumble across that vid in thread title.


Lmao thank god I keep all mine unlisted.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> The other dogs literally wait in line. The foster dogs always challenge this but learn pretty fast.


What did you think you were witnessing if not this??? The foster dog is learning before your very eyes!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I was witnessing a dog that is supposedly a confident alpha dog acting snarky at other dogs that are clearly already waiting their turn and submitting. I guess what I would expect to see is all three dogs just sitting there and taking the food in turn. The foster dog looked very well behaved to me, not at all like the ones that come through here (who would be DIVING into that food bowl repeatedly).


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I was witnessing a dog that is supposedly a confident alpha dog acting snarky at other dogs that are clearly already waiting their turn and submitting. I guess what I would expect to see is all three dogs just sitting there and taking the food in turn. The foster dog looked very well behaved to me, not at all like the ones that come through here (who would be DIVING into that food bowl repeatedly).


Well quite simply don't have strongly dominate dogs. Also, I believe you've missed some subtle ques of challenging behavior. It's very subtle, bur to the dog it is clear


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

Just my opinion which I am applying my own similar experience with our past dogs and the same behavior we had to diagnose, learn to recognize, and then correct. I am no expert on this, but I would like to share my opinions. 

So here we go :shocked:

Koal was not submissive he was indifferent to the behavior. Jägers was not the dominant dog in this scenario. You better be very careful because a day will come where Jägers may give the look/teeth showing and Koal may feel threatened or challenged leading him to defend himself. I would not allow Jägers to be that close to me while feeding or display that behavior. You just actually reinforced it by not correcting him and allowing it to go on. This can be a very serious situation if those two get into it. I do not want to see those dogs get into a fight. I also do not want to see you or anyone else in the house get hurt if they get into it. You can correct the behavior now instead of later and prevent a nasty fight by letting Jägers know this is unacceptable and drive the message loud and clear. Katya you can tell she is submissive and she makes it clear she is not a threat or challenge.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> Well quite simply don't have strongly dominate dogs. Also, I believe you've missed some subtle ques of challenging behavior. It's very subtle, bur to the dog it is clear


Sorry I don't understand the first sentence. I'm sure I missed all of the subtle cues because honestly I lack the patience to analyze dog behavior this carefully. As long as dogs aren't trying to boss me around and aren't escalating fights with each other, I don't really pay much attention to what they are doing and why around here, too many dogs going in and out my doors and many with much larger issues (usually medical) than whether or not they would let a dog like Nikon bear his teeth at them over some kibble. If you are trying to say that a dog is not dominant if he doesn't snarl at other dogs over kibble I will respectfully disagree, I know plenty of very confident, dominant dogs that don't feel the need to stoop to that level because they already know the kibble is theirs, or they are dominant around other dogs but not so dominant that they are willing to challenge the handler on who is getting fed what (my first dog was super dominant around other dogs but almost the complete opposite with people, skittish to a fault at times, it was rather odd, she probably would have been the happiest as a feral dog living with a dog pack and fending for herself).


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

KayleeGSD said:


> Just my opinion which I am applying my own similar experience with our past dogs and the same behavior we had to diagnose, learn to recognize, and then correct. I am no expert on this, but I would like to share my opinions.
> 
> So here we go :shocked:
> 
> Koal was not submissive he was indifferent to the behavior. Jägers was not the dominant dog in this scenario. You better be very careful because a day will come where Jägers may give the look/teeth showing and Koal may feel threatened or challenged leading him to defend himself. I would not allow Jägers to be that close to me while feeding or display that behavior. You just actually reinforced it by not correcting him and allowing it to go on. This can be a very serious situation if those two get into it. I do not want to see those dogs get into a fight. I also do not want to see you or anyone else in the house get hurt if they get into it. You can correct the behavior now instead of later and prevent a nasty fight by letting Jägers know this is unacceptable and drive the message loud and clear. Katya you can tell she is submissive and she makes it clear she is not a threat or challenge.


He was indifferent.. that was the issue. He didn't submit to a "request to submit". Koal doesn't feel the need to "defend" himself because Jäger doesn't continue after he submits. If he felt threatened he'd hackle his fur. He used to, all the time, at the site of any other dog. I don't believe you have a good understanding of what you saw


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Sorry I don't understand the first sentence. I'm sure I missed all of the subtle cues because honestly I lack the patience to analyze dog behavior this carefully. As long as dogs aren't trying to boss me around and aren't escalating fights with each other, I don't really pay much attention to what they are doing and why around here, too many dogs going in and out my doors and many with much larger issues (usually medical) than whether or not they would let a dog like Nikon bear his teeth at them over some kibble. If you are trying to say that a dog is not dominant if he doesn't snarl at other dogs over kibble I will respectfully disagree, I know plenty of very confident, dominant dogs that don't feel the need to stoop to that level because they already know the kibble is theirs, or they are dominant around other dogs but not so dominant that they are willing to challenge the handler on who is getting fed what (my first dog was super dominant around other dogs but almost the complete opposite with people, skittish to a fault at times, it was rather odd, she probably would have been the happiest as a feral dog living with a dog pack and fending for herself).


Thats not what I said at all... devil is in the details. I meant to convey that if you have a dog that does not stand his ground when another attempts to challenge him for what is his, he is not a dominate dog but a submissive one. 

In the video there is zero challenge as to who feeds what. I shot a video just for you just now. As you see here, absolutely no challenge to who I choose to give the ball too... unfortunately Koal has zero drive so he doesn't really want the ball, but the point still stands. Also note the little passive-aggressive "passes" Koal makes at Jäger... this is near constant. And note that Jäger doesn't even attempt to get the ball he *just had* when it rolls *onto his feet*... Jäger's tolerance of Koals "taunts" is actually far beyond the other dogs:


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

hunterisgreat said:


> He was indifferent.. that was the issue. He didn't submit to a "request to submit". Koal doesn't feel the need to "defend" himself because Jäger doesn't continue after he submits. If he felt threatened he'd hackle his fur. He used to, all the time, at the site of any other dog. I don't believe you have a good understanding of what you saw


You know your dogs and how to read them some people may have a similar problem and we all know every dog is different. Sometimes the fur does not have to be hackled this can be a simple dead on look with specific body language in the blink of an eye. Some dogs are different and the worst ones do not give you any indication or warning. You know what your pack does, how to read them, and how to handle it. Which is really good. 

The point I am stressing is I do not allow teeth showing, a dog standing that close to me hovering while feeding whether I have a pack or not. They must be calm, relaxed and at a respectable distance. Even though a dog may submit for you problems can happen so fast among the dogs and if a opportunity comes along they may go at it. This is a good video and I am glad you posted it so people like myself can see and learn from this. It is always nice to compare experiences with our dogs.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Just something I thought you guys might enjoy watching this thread. Someone mentioned the dog is being rewarded for snarling. check this out!

Counter conditioning a dog who reacts aggressively to being blown at in the face. 

Training Aggression | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Also I think how someone lets their pack interact should be based on the pack and the person and what they are comfortable with. I myself am more familiar with behavior. I interrupt behavior that goes directly against my orders which is NO FIGHTING and NO AGGRESSION TOWARDS PUPPIES or young dogs. 

I am personally comfortable with what you see in the video. If that were one of my males being challenged by a younger male then I would allow it to continue as LONG as it remained fair. Then again scenarios like this don't really happen in my house. If snarling ensues I help fix the issue. I would have told the foster to sit and behave to "back my dog up". If the dog in the "submissive" position is unstable and lacks recognition of the authoritative dog you must evaluate the reason. is the dog just dense? Is the dog actually challenging? Why is the dog challenging? is it lacking self preservation and going to result in a nasty fight? or is the dog slowly learning? Allow the dog to slowly learn in that case. The only reason I have seen fights break out in the scenario you see above is when a dog involved is unstable. That being said my dogs are personally very comfortable with one another and eating. They respect my authority and know that I will give everyone the same amount and there is nothing to guard or be upset about. So we don't see snarling. I do see snarling when a new dog enters the pack and is absolutely clueless about behavior. So I allow them to learn in a supervised and safe manner. The dogs are VERY fair and good at teaching so I sit back and let them do the work.

I don't create artificial structures or force someone to be submissive because I said so. But I do reinforce and back up what dogs say. If a submissive dog is being bullied, I will help them. If a dominant dog is being challenged by an idiot dog, I will help them. We are a pack. We work together. This varies depending on the pack  to each his own


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

4TheDawgies said:


> Just something I thought you guys might enjoy watching this thread. Someone mentioned the dog is being rewarded for snarling. check this out!
> 
> Counter conditioning a dog who reacts aggressively to being blown at in the face.
> 
> Training Aggression | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


He snarls ****after**** getting the food lol.. wrong order


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> He snarls ****after**** getting the food lol.. wrong order


Exactly


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

4TheDawgies said:


> Also I think how someone lets their pack interact should be based on the pack and the person and what they are comfortable with. I myself am more familiar with behavior. I interrupt behavior that goes directly against my orders which is NO FIGHTING and NO AGGRESSION TOWARDS PUPPIES or young dogs.
> 
> I am personally comfortable with what you see in the video. If that were one of my males being challenged by a younger male then I would allow it to continue as LONG as it remained fair. Then again scenarios like this don't really happen in my house. If snarling ensues I help fix the issue. I would have told the foster to sit and behave to "back my dog up". If the dog in the "submissive" position is unstable and lacks recognition of the authoritative dog you must evaluate the reason. is the dog just dense? Is the dog actually challenging? Why is the dog challenging? is it lacking self preservation and going to result in a nasty fight? or is the dog slowly learning? Allow the dog to slowly learn in that case. The only reason I have seen fights break out in the scenario you see above is when a dog involved is unstable. That being said my dogs are personally very comfortable with one another and eating. They respect my authority and know that I will give everyone the same amount and there is nothing to guard or be upset about. So we don't see snarling. I do see snarling when a new dog enters the pack and is absolutely clueless about behavior. So I allow them to learn in a supervised and safe manner. The dogs are VERY fair and good at teaching so I sit back and let them do the work.
> 
> I don't create artificial structures or force someone to be submissive because I said so. But I do reinforce and back up what dogs say. If a submissive dog is being bullied, I will help them. If a dominant dog is being challenged by an idiot dog, I will help them. We are a pack. We work together. This varies depending on the pack  to each his own


I suppose I should say, I don't allow bullying. Also, I have a level of trust in the foster's response I did not have 2 months ago. I *know* Jäger will correct and then stop, even if Koal flips out and throws a fit... I also know Koal won't be so bold as to try to actually make a go of a fight with Jäger. Jäger has taught *multiple* small puppies appropriate behaviour, and those dogs have grown up to have *manners* with regards to other dogs. I will much sooner use him for a puppy than I will Katya because his threshold for how much BS he will tolerate is much higher than her (infact he was there for her life) or any other dog I know of. Koal is a combo of social ignorance, insecurity, and a touch of "dense". He doesn't learn quite as quick as I would prefer.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I suppose I should say, I don't allow bullying. *Also, I have a level of trust in the foster's response I did not have 2 months ago. I *know* Jäger will correct and then stop, even if Koal flips out and throws a fit... I also know Koal won't be so bold as to try to actually make a go of a fight with Jäger. Jäger has taught *multiple* small puppies appropriate behaviour, and those dogs have grown up to have *manners* with regards to other dogs.* I will much sooner use him for a puppy than I will Katya because his threshold for how much BS he will tolerate is much higher than her (infact he was there for her life) or any other dog I know of. Koal is a combo of social ignorance, insecurity, and a touch of "dense". He doesn't learn quite as quick as I would prefer.


The bolded is huge and is exactly why you and I would be more comfortable with our dogs snarling that someone with say rescue dogs or dogs they are less familiar with. not saying others who don't allow it, don't because they don't know their dogs. It's just a difference of opinion. But your reasoning is exactly why I do allow it to happen in my house when it does. I know my dogs thresholds, reactions, tolerance etc. I know I can trust my dogs to give a fair correction to another dog because they have demonstrated entirely that their whole lives. I have one dog who is very unstable and aggressive (my lovely little BYB girl). I would never allow her to snarl. I would not punish it in her, because she NEEDS this defense. Instead I prevent the situation from arising with her and I have taught her if she is uncomfortable to come bury her head in my lap and I will fix it for her instead of snarling. Her snarling allows her to get too close to actually biting. and if she bites after a snarl it is an attack not a correction. That was my solution. Different strokes for different folks.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Someone started a post awhile back about how the number of posts a person has made on this forum does not, in any way, make them an expert.

I would listen to this Hunter.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> And yet, my trust in evolutions design continues to work without issue. Between me trying to decide what's best and putting faith in natures design I tend to lean to natures design knowing I cannot possibly be better informed or have a more mature solution


I just have to throw in there that this situation worked because you have stable dogs that you know well and trust. Even your foster who is still learning looks like he has a good base to him. If I tried this with my girls and allowed their communication to continue to this extent, there would be bloodshed. But only because they hate each other and have no respect for each other. They tolerate each other because I expect them to in certain situations but like someone else mentioned, if they were wild wolves they wouldn't live in the same area. 

This does not mean that I disagree with you, I've had packs before that this approach worked beautifully, simply that what humans have created in the domestic dog is not always in line with what evolution designed. I will allow communication between my dogs to a certain extent but I also know that my GSD girl is a huge bully that will jump at any opportunity to be a bitch to my other girls. She is not a stable, confident, dominant dog, she's a wannabe that tries to bully my other girls into the ground. If I don't step in and my stable, confident girls feel they have to correct her, she'll try and finish them despite their appropriate response to her jerkiness. 

I guess what I mean to say, is congratulations on your gorgeous, balanced pack but I just can't agree that this method would work with every combo of dogs out there.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> I don't need crates  Thats why God created social hierarchies.
> 
> We have had zero fights with the foster... Zero.
> 
> ...


 
Actually, male lions, sometimes at least, do *fatal* damage to each other at least according to the shows I have seen on Animal Planet or similar channels!

Dogs will do the same as well sometimes! You must be a great pack leader in order to maintain order even when you are not home!

All it would take is a lack of submission in the second dog and BAM! It's on!

OTOH, if your group gets along, then go for it.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

you guys think lack of submission is all that causes a fight - rephrasing that, do you think all dogs will choose not to attack if another dog is submissive???


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

x11 said:


> you guys think lack of submission is all that causes a fight - rephrasing that, do you think all dogs will choose not to attack if another dog is submissive???


 
Nope, only MOST normal stable dogs!

Just like MOST normal adult GSD's will let a little puppy get away with almost anything and not hurt the little baby!

But i surely wouldn't let my baby puppy go up to the vast majority of adult dogs.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I watched the video ... twice, I've read most of the comments, and haven't found the question I want to ask ... 

My last dog was an alpha female ... a beautiful creature to watch. Always gave perfect corrections to other dogs, taught puppies the rules, and was an amazing mediator within a pack of dogs. Seriously, it was INCREDIBLE to watch her to her "role" in life. I rarely had to intervene. 

I mention this because she taught me A LOT about dog behaviour - and I watched her constantly (she probably thought I was stalking her LOL). Anyway, I digress. 

I moved in with a friend of mine for a year and she had three male dogs. Abby was the only female. They got along very well (had known each other all their lives).

Abby "corrected" them when they charged the front door. The door bell rang, her three dogs charged the door and she'd slipped through them and literally stared them down, and they backed off and went into the hallway. Do you know how many times she corrected this behaviour? TWICE ... they never did it a third time.

Supper time came. All four dogs were raw fed. They had their own bowls in the kitchen, in separate corners. Abby was still eating, and the bernese was done and he ambled over to see if Abby would share. As he approached, she turned her head, let out a low growl, and curled her lip. He backed off INSTANTLY and went back to see if there was anything else in his bowl. He NEVER did it again. And the other two dogs never tried it. 

MY understanding is that a true alpha (of which there really aren't that many ... dominant and alpha are constantly interchanged and misunderstood) doesn't need to CONSTANTLY correct a dog. So my question is this ... why did your dog have to constantly snap at the other dog to "remind" them of their place?

I get that some dogs will NOT back down to another dog correcting them. One of my friend's has a dog that is a social moron ... not a clue how to greet other dogs. She ran full force into Abby, and Abby whipped around, stared at her, and curled her lip at her. The other dog? Just jumped all over her again. Abby backed off a bit, and let the dog be a twit, and then the third time it came at her, she let out a low growl and snapped the air. The dog stopped and then LUNGED at Abby. I got the other dog away from Abby - who by the way, did NOTHING ... because she knew I was her back up. To me, that's an alpha. My dog knew that I would let her do what was appropriate ... her role in life, but that I always had her back, and would step in if needed. I only ever had to twice ... and that dog was one of the times.

I've worked with loads of dogs and I've watched Abby do her 'corrections' and she RARELY had to correct the same dog more than once. In the video it appears that your dog is correcting the other dog constantly ... I don't get it ... For me that's not dominance / submission but the "correcting" dog is being an "a$$"

Clarification?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Kyleigh said:


> MY understanding is that a true alpha (of which there really aren't that many ... dominant and alpha are constantly interchanged and misunderstood) doesn't need to CONSTANTLY correct a dog. So my question is this ... why did your dog have to constantly snap at the other dog to "remind" them of their place?


Because the foster dog kept encroaching?


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I get that ... but what I'm thinking (and I most definitely could be wrong!) is that if the correction was done properly the first time, maybe even the second, then it wouldn't have had to continue ... this is what I'm thinking ... 

OP ... I'm not trying to knock you ... We really don't see the whole dynamic of your household, the dog's behaviour, etc. That's why I posed my question, with my experiences of my last dog. I get that every dog is different and all that jazz ... From what I saw on the video, it wasn't really a correction, otherwise (as I THINK - not KNOW!!!) the foster dog wouldn't have kept it up ... this is what I am confused about!

Thanks!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I believe the OP stated the foster dog is a bit socially challenged.... and that the foster dog's behavior has improved.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I find Katya the most interesting, personally.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gagsd said:


> I find Katya the most interesting, personally.


Maybe Jager has "put her in her place" a few times? She is so demure looking!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

x11 said:


> you guys think lack of submission is all that causes a fight - rephrasing that, do you think all dogs will choose not to attack if another dog is submissive???


A sound, well adjusted dog won't pursue a submitting dog


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Kyleigh said:


> I get that ... but what I'm thinking (and I most definitely could be wrong!) is that if the correction was done properly the first time, maybe even the second, then it wouldn't have had to continue ... this is what I'm thinking ...
> 
> OP ... I'm not trying to knock you ... We really don't see the whole dynamic of your household, the dog's behaviour, etc. That's why I posed my question, with my experiences of my last dog. I get that every dog is different and all that jazz ... From what I saw on the video, it wasn't really a correction, otherwise (as I THINK - not KNOW!!!) the foster dog wouldn't have kept it up ... this is what I am confused about!
> 
> Thanks!


He only corrected him once. The others were warnings. Assertions that he was higher on the ladder and the foster needed to give way. The foster is a little socially retarded. With out a doubt he came from a one dog, no socialization home. keep in mind this dog hackled and nipped at everyone when he came in the house.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Got it! Thanks ... I was trying to read the whole thread, but was getting frustrated with all the back and forth, and admittedly skipped some!!!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Maybe Jager has "put her in her place" a few times? She is so demure looking!


She is very dramatic in all aspects. Watch the video in this thread of them playing. She's highly dominant and rough when playing with Jäger. That little 60lb dog rolls Jäger all over the place lol. I think jäger likes it too caus you can catch him rolling before she hits him lol


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> I find Katya the most interesting, personally.


It's funny how she submits so fully, and them comes all the way back so fully. She is that way with me in training too. I can say "noooo" and I get that reaction, then "Good!!" And she's all the way cracked out in drive again. She is almost robotic in that when you push the right button you always get the response you expected


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Just a little more background on Koal

I *verbally* corrected Koal the first week I had him as he was jumping on jager's back and biting the nape of his neck, while jäger showed his teeth without correcting him. Koal was going too far so I stood up and walked over and told him no! He looked, hackled, and growled at ME. I jumped between the dogs and pushed Koal back to make some space between him and jäger and I so he understood that the path he was going on was him against our pack. He then lunges and snapped at ME missing only because I'm quite used to dodging dog bites from helper work. My response was an immediate roll on his back, not so much for the roll aspect but for him to understand any sort of behavior like that at me will get a much stronger response from me, and he needs to understand this is an inappropriate and ineffective way to deal with the human feeding and handling you, and finally at this point he made it clear he was gonna make a go of it and I had to restrain him before Katya came over and ended his life (Katya ironically, acts as jager's enforcer lol). So, this ended in me "dead fishing" Koal... Laying on top pinning his head down to keep clear of the gnashing teeth, while keeping my three at bay who were standing by, and letting Koal wear himself out. He snapped at me once since then... When I was asking for a sit, with no correction. He snapped, then dropped, rolled and submitted faster than I had any time to react. To me this was an artifact of his old behavior that leaked out that he realized was wrong and immediately apologized for. Now he has trust that I will reward good and punish bad in equal measure to the gravity of what he did. He is now growing to trust jäger in that way.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Without knowing the dogs or the people interacting with them, the first thought I had was, "I wonder if Jager is communicating with Koal, or if he's lifting his lips because he's being rewarded for that behavior?" because at one point you can see him do this before he gets his piece, not even looking at Koal. It seems like you could tell him to stop it and he would without any problem. My second thought was how this will work out for Koal in the long run - since he's a foster, and will be rehomed eventually, will he be placed as 'good with other dogs' or will he need to be adopted out as a single dog? That is, will he need to go to a home where the other dog is dominant because otherwise he might take advantage of a more submissive dog?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Without knowing the dogs or the people interacting with them, the first thought I had was, "I wonder if Jager is communicating with Koal, or if he's lifting his lips because he's being rewarded for that behavior?" because at one point you can see him do this before he gets his piece, not even looking at Koal. It seems like you could tell him to stop it and he would without any problem. My second thought was how this will work out for Koal in the long run - since he's a foster, and will be rehomed eventually, will he be placed as 'good with other dogs' or will he need to be adopted out as a single dog? That is, will he need to go to a home where the other dog is dominant because otherwise he might take advantage of a more submissive dog?


Well, the more dominant dog will always rule the submissive one. He could be homed with other dogs, what is important is that the owner understand the dynamic of their pack and how to address any issues that might arise... thats not Koal specific, that goes with any dog.

Jager doesn't have to look at him to know he is getting closer. Dogs have very good peripheral vision and general awareness. When I look at Katya she will wag her tail, even when I'm not sure i'm in her peripheral vision. Still, she is aware of my action.

If jager came to believe he needed to show his teeth to get a reward, you'd see that whether Koal was close or far, whether Katya was near, and indeed when we were totally alone. This is not the case.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The dominant dog ruling the submissive one is just a natural dynamic, but what about when the dogs aren't stable? Like with Koal, you say he's socially challenged, lol - will he go after another dog, just because he can? I don't think too many people these days are going to roll a dog to teach it when it's crossed a line.

I don't know how to describe what I saw in the video, but Jager seemed very non-threatening with his lip lifting, especially with the way Koal didn't react much to it. That's why I thought it might just be a reinforced behavior in that particular instance.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> The dominant dog ruling the submissive one is just a natural dynamic, but what about when the dogs aren't stable? Like with Koal, you say he's socially challenged, lol - will he go after another dog, just because he can? I don't think too many people these days are going to roll a dog to teach it when it's crossed a line.
> 
> I don't know how to describe what I saw in the video, but Jager seemed very non-threatening with his lip lifting, especially with the way Koal didn't react much to it. That's why I thought it might just be a reinforced behavior in that particular instance.


It was just the first step in the process of posturing... Eyes, display of weapons (teeth), noise (growling, barking), increasing perceived size (hackling, squaring off), closing distance, contact, full fight. Roughly in that order

It's not a "I'm going to kill you" thing, it's a "I'm more dominant, you must yield" thing.

Unstable isn't the right word... But unstable/socially challenged dogs become better by being around socially sound dogs.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

that is a fun video but i never seen my bitch display the look away stuff that the other dogs are doing? shes met 100s of dogs and shes never looked away like that ever ? lol it was too funny and cute tho, even if a in tact alpha male comes to check her out she will look at him like what are you doing? she wont submit. 


But katya seems like the strongest dog in the pack physically did you see how she was throwing jag around all over the place? maybe that is why he is strict cause he knows it? I don't but she seems like one strong bitch and he might know this lol The other ones dont seem as strong as her.

I am more curious who is second in command? are the bitches ahead of koel? 

Cause my female sees other intact males like another female not something that gets extra respect.

Id like to see a video without jag and just the 2 bitches and the foster male. I wonder if things would get nasty without jag around?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I absolutely love this video, thank you so much for sharing it.

My background in wolf, canine and dog behaviour makes videos like this a treasure for me. I am a lover of canine pack dynamics, rituals and all things instinctive behaviour. I used to work at a dog boarding/training facility and I would do playgroups and socialization with packs of dogs (some family groups, some friend groups and some groups of random dogs) for 4-6 hours a day (worked full time) for two years. You learn a lot, especially how to recognize behaviour and judge the outcome of interactions based on many factors.

Opps, I digress...

Animals will be animals, regardless of how we feel about their social interactions. I see a harmless display of dominance/position with three well socialized dogs and a more dominant dog that knows how to fairly interact as a dominant canine. 

Wolves, dogs, coyotes, and other canines rarely end up killing one another. The reason for that is dominance/submission rituals that confirm everyone's position in a pack/group and allow messages and information to be sent from dog to dog safely. Of course, fights do and can occur. But both dogs were clearly submissive to the male, despite one dog being unsure of itself and it's position (the foster, I assume? A natural response for a new dog). You watch the whole thing play out and settle as quickly as it started. Foster dog tests the established rules of the dog group (food entices social interaction due to survival mechanisms/stronger animals eat better and more -- like survival of the fittest), dominant dog establishes himself -- submissive dog does not challenge or cause issue and just eats -- foster dog learns it's position and is obviously naturally more submissive at the time.

Thank you again for the video. I miss working with large groups of dogs and watching social interactions daily. Sigh!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Just a little more background on Koal
> 
> I *verbally* corrected Koal the first week I had him as he was jumping on jager's back and biting the nape of his neck, while jäger showed his teeth without correcting him. Koal was going too far so I stood up and walked over and told him no! He looked, hackled, and growled at ME. I jumped between the dogs and pushed Koal back to make some space between him and jäger and I so he understood that the path he was going on was him against our pack. He then lunges and snapped at ME missing only because I'm quite used to dodging dog bites from helper work. My response was an immediate roll on his back, not so much for the roll aspect but for him to understand any sort of behavior like that at me will get a much stronger response from me, and he needs to understand this is an inappropriate and ineffective way to deal with the human feeding and handling you, and finally at this point he made it clear he was gonna make a go of it and I had to restrain him before Katya came over and ended his life (Katya ironically, acts as jager's enforcer lol). So, this ended in me "dead fishing" Koal... Laying on top pinning his head down to keep clear of the gnashing teeth, while keeping my three at bay who were standing by, and letting Koal wear himself out. He snapped at me once since then... When I was asking for a sit, with no correction. He snapped, then dropped, rolled and submitted faster than I had any time to react. To me this was an artifact of his old behavior that leaked out that he realized was wrong and immediately apologized for. Now he has trust that I will reward good and punish bad in equal measure to the gravity of what he did. He is now growing to trust jäger in that way.


do u think maybe koel is only respecting jag because you made koel respect him as the real pack leader? He was getting pushy with jag and you corrected him. I know that if a dog did that with my bitch she would usually not show much teeth and deal with it in seconds id have to pull her off the dog most of the times. Thats why i was wondering maybe koel is respecting you as the pack leader and leaving jag alone. Maybe if he had it his way he would go after jag but hes respecting you? Jag has not been in a fight he sounds like a nice dog. Maybe koel has a histroy of fighting but he respects you too much to do anything to jag. He went after you a few times so he has some balls thats for sure lol

could the look away thing be a game and them not really taking jag serious?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

pets4life said:


> that is a fun video but i never seen my bitch display the look away stuff that the other dogs are doing? shes met 100s of dogs and shes never looked away like that ever ? lol it was too funny and cute tho, even if a in tact alpha male comes to check her out she will look at him like what are you doing? she wont submit.
> 
> 
> But katya seems like the strongest dog in the pack physically did you see how she was throwing jag around all over the place? maybe that is why he is strict cause he knows it? I don't but she seems like one strong bitch and he might know this lol The other ones dont seem as strong as her.
> ...


If Katya bows up at a male in public if I get her to realize its a male, she is fine.. all aggression or dominant behavior vanishes. Not so with a female.
Jäger is more powerful physically (he out weighs her by ~ 20+ lbs anyway) that Katya plays rougher than him. In that play video you can also see half the time he is rolling himself, and when she steps away he stays on his back. Its a weird sort of way he plays with her. He doesn't do that with any other dogs. When he has had enough or doesn't want to play with her he shuts her down pretty quickly

Keep in mind, the back and forth in the main video, this doesn't happen with random dogs out in town, nor does it happen just walking around the house between Jager and Koal


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

pets4life said:


> do u think maybe koel is only respecting jag because you made koel respect him as the real pack leader? He was getting pushy with jag and you corrected him. I know that if a dog did that with my bitch she would usually not show much teeth and deal with it in seconds id have to pull her off the dog most of the times. Thats why i was wondering maybe koel is respecting you as the pack leader and leaving jag alone. Maybe if he had it his way he would go after jag but hes respecting you? Jag has not been in a fight he sounds like a nice dog.


No I don't/can't make him respect jager. I stepped in b/c Koal was very new and I didn't know how far he would take it, and I knew Jager was reaching his threshold of tolerance of Koal being a jerk. I've done the same with Katya and Aska when Koal is being a jerk to them, even moreso as they won't tell Koal "no" nearly as quickly. Thats part of my role as the leader and just a pack member, to defend other pack members. To the greatest extent I feel is possible I do not intervene in them sorting each other out. Katya, with another dominant female, will *maybe* give a quick growl and then its go time. Jäger fortunately gives clear warnings and is remarkably tolerant of other dogs.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> Just a little more background on Koal
> 
> I *verbally* corrected Koal the first week I had him as he was jumping on jager's back and biting the nape of his neck, while jäger showed his teeth without correcting him. Koal was going too far so I stood up and walked over and told him no! He looked, hackled, and growled at ME. I jumped between the dogs and pushed Koal back to make some space between him and jäger and I so he understood that the path he was going on was him against our pack. He then lunges and snapped at ME missing only because I'm quite used to dodging dog bites from helper work. My response was an immediate roll on his back, not so much for the roll aspect but for him to understand any sort of behavior like that at me will get a much stronger response from me, and he needs to understand this is an inappropriate and ineffective way to deal with the human feeding and handling you, and finally at this point he made it clear he was gonna make a go of it and I had to restrain him before Katya came over and ended his life (Katya ironically, acts as jager's enforcer lol). So, this ended in me "dead fishing" Koal... Laying on top pinning his head down to keep clear of the gnashing teeth, while keeping my three at bay who were standing by, and letting Koal wear himself out. He snapped at me once since then... When I was asking for a sit, with no correction. He snapped, then dropped, rolled and submitted faster than I had any time to react. To me this was an artifact of his old behavior that leaked out that he realized was wrong and immediately apologized for. Now he has trust that I will reward good and punish bad in equal measure to the gravity of what he did. He is now growing to trust jäger in that way.


So fascinating! 

You have taken on the role of the most dominant member of your family group. Jäger has assumed the "Beta" position, acting as your true enforcer (he takes dominance in your absence and takes dominance over every other member but you [I assume]). Katya's enforcer behaviour stems from her solid position in the pack -- whether that be dominant, submissive or somewhere in between -- and is a direct result of the stability in your little "pack" and her desire to keep said stability. She "enforces" the established hierarchy by assisting in the rituals.

Jäger's behaviour during the time when Koal was jumping on him and biting on him was the mark of a true, stable dominant mind (regardless of whether or not he submits to you). He was being fair and giving warning without attacking out of mental instability, giving Koal the chance to "listen to reason" before the real discipline would arise. Jäger's response by doing nothing but making noise and showing teeth gave Koal the information that

1) Jäger is dominant over him and that behaviour is unacceptable
2) Jäger is fair and stable, but if Koal continues to push Jäger's response will escalate into something more serious. First, with a serious correction/discipline and if that does not work or Koal rises to the challenge - a fight (sometimes fatal, but not usually).


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

are the 2 females submissive to koel? like if its just the 3 of them is he usually the alpha?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> If Katya bows up at a male in public if I get her to realize its a male, she is fine.. all aggression or dominant behavior vanishes. Not so with a female.


Understandably so - females instinctively want to dominate other females and males instinctively want to dominate other males - which is why many people say "two females don't do well together". Females feel this strongly because it is them who breed, and the right to breed is something to really fight for.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

pets4life said:


> are the 2 females submissive to koel? like if its just the 3 of them is he usually the alpha?


Not sure about the OP.... but in my dogs the interactions between male and female are very very different than same-sex interactions. So the "alpha" terminolgy then can be misleading. My males will let the females do things and even be the Boss when it comes to certain situations.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

my dog acts like females and males are on the same level does she have issues or something lol she does not see a bitch or a male any diff


the worst fight she ever got into was a nutered male and she wanted him dead and shes not dog aggressive at all


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Not sure about the OP.... but in my dogs the interactions between male and female are very very different than same-sex interactions. So the "alpha" terminolgy then can be misleading. My males will let the females do things and even be the Boss when it comes to certain situations.


same with mine. Katya does the exact same thing Jäger does to Koal, but with Aska.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> This is pre-foster, but so you understand the difference between bullying (taking everything) and simply claiming what is rightfully theirs. You'll see mutual respect among all dogs.
> 
> Katya didn't feel well, but guarded her bowl for hours. Jäger patiently waits. If he approached, she growled, I allowed it, and he respected that it was hers.
> Katya guarding food - YouTube
> ...


Your household is exactly like mine. The only dog that growled over her bowl was Indra because she is so much slower. She had to growl a couple of times and claim her bowl and ever since then, they leave her alone and respect her space. That's so much better than me going constantly in, correcting or yelling, or doing the "AH AH!" thing. 

The only real bully in the house is Ma Deuce. 
She is a bully. She likes to go for Indras and Nala's ears. No one can't get close to me when she's with me. She will lift her lips. That's something I had to correct because that is something I won't accept in the house. 

It really depends on the situation and what the dogs are actually doing. 
In the morning, when I let them out, I put a nylon muzzle on Ma because she's seriously snapping the other dogs ears. Not out of aggression but out of excitement and to protect their ears, she's wearing a muzzle. Once she's steamed off that energy that makes her snap like a crazy witch, I take it off. 


*Honestly, we all have our own pack. We all have different, yet similar believes. We have to use what works for our pack and not what works for other people. What works for me, may not work for you and what works for you may not work for me. *


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> *Honestly, we all have our own pack. We all have different, yet similar believes. We have to use what works for our pack and not what works for other people. What works for me, may not work for you and what works for you may not work for me. *


Very well said!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

mrs k ur other bitches must not all be fully mature yet there is no way they will put up with that for long. I don't believe it. not 3 high drive working bitches. Ma dece will get nailed bad sooner or later and once it starts it wont stop.


by fully mature at least 3 or 4 years


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gagsd said:


> Not sure about the OP.... but in my dogs the interactions between male and female are very very different than same-sex interactions. So the "alpha" terminolgy then can be misleading. My males will let the females do things and even be the Boss when it comes to certain situations.


I've had this too though in my case my intact male GSDs always treat Coke like a female. Nikon will sometimes even sniff his urine and drool or chatter like he does with female urine, but Coke for all intents and purposes is a female to them. He was neutered very young (probably around 10 weeks, he was a rescue and I didn't adopt him until he was 1.5 years old) and acts very female as far as never lifting a leg, never marking, being submissive to the males and the males really paying him very little attention at all. They pretty much ignore him whereas if another intact male does the same sort of thing they will take notice or might correct. It's funny to watch other male dogs interact with him.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> So fascinating!
> 
> You have taken on the role of the most dominant member of your family group. Jäger has assumed the "Beta" position, acting as your true enforcer (he takes dominance in your absence and takes dominance over every other member but you [I assume]). Katya's enforcer behaviour stems from her solid position in the pack -- whether that be dominant, submissive or somewhere in between -- and is a direct result of the stability in your little "pack" and her desire to keep said stability. She "enforces" the established hierarchy by assisting in the rituals.
> 
> ...


Interestingly this made me think of a behaviour Jäger always does. When I have multiple dogs in the car and I stop somewhere, be it to pump gas or go into get groceries or whatever, Jäger has always jumped into the drivers seat and sat there. As soon as I open the door he jumps out of it. Wonder if he puts significance on the driver seat since, from his perspective, every single time he has ever been in my vehicle, I've been in that seat.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I am surprised no one has mentioned all the tongue flicking that Jager does while he is snarling. That is very much behavior saying "I really don't want to fight" right in the middle of him making that snarl.

The other thing that is interesting is how inhibited his snarl is--it's almost a grin, with that tongue flicking in the middle ofit.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

My only thought was...if he was going to fight, he would have when he advanced slightly.
So the OP trusts him not to fight...but then if he didn't whip the other dog's behind, is that 
"true" dominance?

Is it just a good example of how fluid dog status actually is? 

FTR, when my Dachshunds (yes, I know, another breed entirely) get to the point they are lifting lips and snarling at one another, a fight _does_ break out. Which is why I don't allow it to advance to that point.


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## Snickelfritz (Feb 21, 2007)

All I can see, is a whole lot of trouble in the future.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Snickelfritz said:


> All I can see, is a whole lot of trouble in the future.


This behaviour is what prevents damage being done in fighting. It's the quiet... the lack of social interaction and clear messages that leads to brutal dog fights.

This behaviour establishes rules and rank without bloodshed. These rituals are how canines species survive and don't kill each other into extinction.


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## Snickelfritz (Feb 21, 2007)

Wild Wolf said:


> This behaviour is what prevents damage being done in fighting. It's the quiet... the lack of social interaction and clear messages that leads to brutal dog fights.
> 
> This behaviour establishes rules and rank without bloodshed. These rituals are how canines species survive and don't kill each other into extinction.


Riiigggghhttt. Whatever you say Wolf. I can see potential for disaster. But what do I know. Never been around a dog, or a pack in my life:crazy:

Just my opinion. Take it, and if you don't. You can leave it.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I don't like my dogs growling or snapping at each other, but the thing I haven't seen mentioned in this talk about whether that's acceptable or not (sorry if I missed it) is that punishing warning snarls or growls can actually lead to more aggression. I have a policy of never punishing those warning signs. My only dog fights happen with a dog I took in after he'd bitten a couple of people and was fighting with the family's other dogs "for no reason." They'd punished him for growling, and so now even 6 years later he'll go straight to biting or attacking rather than giving obvious warnings that he's not okay with a situation. I have to watch his body language very carefully to keep the peace.

What I do instead is set very clear standards of behavior for each dog. I supervise meal times and stop the dogs who finish earlier from getting too close to the slower eaters. When we're giving treats, they know they will all get one and they also know that they need to be sitting nicely and totally focused on me--so they're not even paying attention to each other. If one looks like he's going to try to steal another's spot on the couch, I find another place for him to go lay down. Basically, my attitude is, "In the house, I don't care which one of you thinks he's dominant, because _I'm_ the one in charge and I control everything in your life."

I started doing this because at one time I had 7 ACDs between my 3, 2 I was caring for when their owner was deployed overseas and her initial care plans for them fell through suddenly, and 2 fosters...all in a small 2-bedroom house (on a farm at least LOL). They tend to be a breed that is prone to squabbles and fights and being the "dog police" to other canines they think aren't behaving right...unfortunately they all have different ideas of what "right" is! I was constantly having squabbles and fights until I started managing them like that. I agree that we all find what works for us, but that's my 2 cents.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

has anyone seen an alpha female run a pack in such a forgiving manner? they dont seem to warn they just seen to brutally attack whatever they feel is not following their rules rather than smile and warn like jag does. Just a question?


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> This behaviour is what prevents damage being done in fighting. It's the quiet... the lack of social interaction and clear messages that leads to brutal dog fights.
> 
> This behaviour establishes rules and rank without bloodshed. These rituals are how canines species survive and don't kill each other into extinction.


Couldn't have said it better


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> but the thing I haven't seen mentioned in this talk about whether that's acceptable or not (sorry if I missed it) is that punishing warning snarls or growls can actually lead to more aggression.


I haven't found this to be true, although I've heard others say it is. 
All I know is we live with a lot of dogs, sometimes more than others, and if you scold the "thought" of "I'm going to whale this other dog", then it usually is enough to keep things on an even keel.

That is...know your dogs, and watch for potential triggers, and be "HEY that's enough", to calm things down a tad, and things don't get out of hand that way. I don't let them get to the point of snarling, because we maintain a threshold someplace under that point.


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## Snickelfritz (Feb 21, 2007)

RowdyDogs said:


> I don't like my dogs growling or snapping at each other, but the thing I haven't seen mentioned in this talk about whether that's acceptable or not (sorry if I missed it) is that punishing warning snarls or growls can actually lead to more aggression. I have a policy of never punishing those warning signs. My only dog fights happen with a dog I took in after he'd bitten a couple of people and was fighting with the family's other dogs "for no reason." They'd punished him for growling, and so now even 6 years later he'll go straight to biting or attacking rather than giving obvious warnings that he's not okay with a situation. I have to watch his body language very carefully to keep the peace.


This makes sense to me.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I think we're actually on the same page there. I got the vibe from some of these posts that they were letting things escalate until the dog started warning the other, and then the response was scolding the warning dog for growling (I may have misinterpreted some or be misremembering too, it's a long thread and I've read it over several days ). That's what caused the trouble with my bitey dog, when his previous owners basically left him defenseless--they didn't stop the other dog from making him uncomfortable, but they didn't allow him to tell the other dog that either.

I also want to say that I didn't word that well. I don't think it makes a dog _more_ aggressive, it just makes the aggression come with less warning.

I'll definitely scold my dogs when they're escalating to snarling but haven't yet, in the same sense you do. My point was that in my opinion, management should keep it to the point of snarling, but if it does get to that point, just punishing the snarl isn't necessarily the best course of action.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I understand...yesterday in the shelter was a good example, the shelter manager gave a loud screech/yell that startled the pants off me!
What happened was they have a few dogs that wander loose (hey, it's not my shelter, but either way...) and some of the other dogs were headed outside on a leash, other than the person holding the leash stopped to talk to the manager.

She saw the posturing begin and yelled then, before it escalated. 
That's about when I intervene, too, or try to. It gives the dogs the impression we're some sort of mind-reading goddesses LOL

I think that's what we mean, Rowdy?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

pets4life said:


> has anyone seen an alpha female run a pack in such a forgiving manner? they dont seem to warn they just seen to brutally attack whatever they feel is not following their rules rather than smile and warn like jag does. Just a question?


Alpha females and Alpha males don't attack and brutalize their pack members. You should read a book about wolf behaviour.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I understand...yesterday in the shelter was a good example, the shelter manager gave a loud screech/yell that startled the pants off me!
> What happened was they have a few dogs that wander loose (hey, it's not my shelter, but either way...) and some of the other dogs were headed outside on a leash, other than the person holding the leash stopped to talk to the manager.
> 
> She saw the posturing begin and yelled then, before it escalated.
> ...


Yep, exactly!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I am surprised no one has mentioned all the tongue flicking that Jager does while he is snarling. That is very much behavior saying "I really don't want to fight" right in the middle of him making that snarl.
> 
> The other thing that is interesting is how inhibited his snarl is--it's almost a grin, with that tongue flicking in the middle ofit.


I didn't notice it, nor know that was a queue. Maybe that's why he is so effective in not fighting.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> This behaviour is what prevents damage being done in fighting. It's the quiet... the lack of social interaction and clear messages that leads to brutal dog fights.
> 
> This behaviour establishes rules and rank without bloodshed. These rituals are how canines species survive and don't kill each other into extinction.


Not just canines... Almost all animals.


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