# Bloodlines and SAR



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I recently got into a rather lively debate with someone I really respect about the suitability of certain lines to do SAR. I've already discussed this with some of the SAR members here as well as several breeders, but I thought it would be an interesting conversation to continue outside of PM's and emails for everyone's benefit.

Essentially, the person does not think that ANY Czech line does are good for SAR because they are "sharp" and "reactive." And in the even that someone was to be brave enough to venture into Czech lines for SAR that they should have years and years of experience of working with working line GSD's (me owning and working 1 of these, plus fostering experience, as well as the "in home" work I've done with problem dogs is not considered enough).

Incidentally, I touched based with many SAR people across the US on this topic and only 1 felt similar to her. The rest raved about the lines and their ability to do SAR.

Obviously this debate is largely dependant on the specific dogs in the pedigree--as is always the case. But as a general rule, what is your opinion?

MY thought is that they would make a good match in the most general of terms: higher thresholds, harder (recovers quicker and is unfazed by many things), less hectic than WGWL's can be. Bad things: Higher defense or civil drive.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

And I will add to the discussion:

If you think Czech line dogs make good candidates for SAR, what dogs do you like to see in the pedigree and what dogs don't you like to see.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IMO, it would depend on the lines just like in any of the dogs no matter country of origin. I have seen Czech dogs, that no, would not be suitable at all and others that are/would be excellent. I have seen the same in WL also.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't know enough about Czech line to answer the question but is it the person I think it is?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do hope you get feedback. I have seen some awful nice Czech dogs but am being open minded to the exact traits that I want (and hope I still wind up with a GSD, but even there - whatever - is to use the best tool for the job)

I wonder too what East German dogs add to the soup. Many Czech dogs I have seen have DDR in the pedigree (and I know some who thought highly of Lord v Gleisdreieck (please forgive any spelling error - ok - "lord of the railroad wye" --- in a pedigree and he was SAR. Also Mink and Crok for hunt drives (West German) but then where does that go with sharpness? Of course these are older dogs because the last time I got tangled up in pedigrees was 2002.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I hope that Cliff sees this and gets involved . Here is my opinion based on experience and observation of "Czech dogs" . Yes I agree with Lisa that it would depend on the lines . Generally though I would say that what the Czech dogs have to offer the breed is strong character , strong fight drive. I would say that it is power through strength in the way that a "thug" or "goon" or "enforcer" through sheer brute strength gets things done. This is not bad. This is not good. We have far to many weak , shy , fearful dogs in the breed with no determination to get a job done. The problem is that though they have this on the positive side of the balance sheet I will say that they are lacking in SMARTS. There I said it. Not really bright in the way a good herding dog would be . Not so biddable. Not anticipating what you may want to have done , or good to be left alone to carry on a task without supervision.
Many members of this forum have a friend in common on another list , who uses her dogs day to day practical herding , NOT trial or competition herding which has ruined it . Many a time she has said she has left the dogs in charge while she "went in to town". The old dogs could do that .
I have been writing several real life herders in Germany to get a feel for the intelligence required. 
Everyone automatically labels the GSD as a smart breed. I would no longer give such a blanket description. Just like stable nerves, "near human intelligence" is something that you really have to look for .
I did have a herding dog of another breed who even at 6 months of age had so thoroughly learned my husbands daily routine of going out and taking care of our horses that he could "feel" for the time , he would run the routine all by himself . We always laughed and said we could take a holiday and leave him in charge . 
Currently I have a GSD from my breeding program that is as close to that as I have ever had. Smart as a whip. Just had his first birthday. Tell him to go out and bring them in and he will . He fires out and gets busy. Never too much , never too little.
Never handler aggressive. Strong and courageous. Very bidable , not soft in anyway.
Last summer I had a guest come over unannounced. I was in the side garden with the pup who was only about 5 months at the time. I was renovating a rose garden and wanted to finish so my guest pulled up a chair and sat in the shade and I showed the pup off. He observed my needing a shovel, a hand shovel, the hose . If I moved away to a further part of the garden the dog without any direction or encouragement would go and mouth the heavy shovel handle and drag it over to me. Likewise any equipment that I needed for the job. I asked him to "hold" it . Which meant it was his to guard as a guard the object excercise. My friend could not get it , could not touch the object . The dog would lay there and give him the hairy eyeball . If friend crept too close dog stood up and barked. Closer in dog would chase . It was as if someone had taught him perimeters .

I have not ever experienced this kind of smartness in Czech lines. In DDR lines yes, closer , in fact this dog is a mix of ddr / west german working , even has one incidental line to show , although this show line has been proven to work. 

The secret is in the breeding criterion. DDR and West German lines have a conservation of heritage working herding dogs. In the Czech dogs there was no necessity for nuance , just honest raw power . It can be put to use so don't take it as a criticism . 

Now on another note, without mentioning names I am dealing with a person who has a German show line dog - lots of modern Kirschental with some major health issues . The person wanted a "better" dog so as an antidote went out and bought a Czech dog as an import. I know the pedigrees . The Czech dog comes from very reliable breeder who I would not hesitate buying from . Things happen. Nature is not 100% controllable. The sad thing is that the dog is very healthy , but the dog is afraid of the wind , afraid of thunder, very noise sensitive , so not so good temperamentally.

Interesting question -- as the end user , whether police , or SAR or any other function the evaluator has to thoroughly test the dog in front of them.
It is the breeder who has to understand the possibilities of a line .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I wouldn't want to see Crok .
My experience in SAR is having several dogs trained and certified by rcmp , and/or to rcmp standards. If someone were to ask what differentiates my dogs I would answer deliberate high hunt/search , deliberate instinctive tracking skills.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

My dog has quite a bit of Czech in his lines and he is PHENOMENAL couldn't ask for a better SAR dog. He is flying through training and everyone else on the team with a GSD wants to work him instead .


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Carmen that is a very interesting comment because we sometimes joke that my Czech male is dumber than a dumb rock. Unlike my West German female he does not offer tons of behaviors to get what he wants.

Though a police officer I worked with in training him said the best detection dog he ever had was not particularly bright. And I have heard a few others say that as well.

I know mine does not challenge me or try to change the rules like the smarter dog does by constantly pushing the limits and does not figure out things like going around instead of through obstables. Yet he does learn quickly, is eager, and wants to please (and loves the toy) and has, in that respect, been very easy to work with...which may be the DDR overlay?

I will say everything I have heard about this intellegence and perceptiveness always does seem to be ascribed to the old herding lines.

Now, is that a necessary attribute for SAR? Hmmm......well I think that is what makes the GSD *not* a Malinois perhaps (that and the off switch)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

carmspack said:


> I wouldn't want to see Crok .Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Why? Males with crok in the male tail line I have heard tendency towards handler agression (then the arguments about nature vs nurture on that trait) and I know that both of my females uncles were very handler agressive (her mother was a crok grandaughter)....I have never seen a sign of handler agression in my female but she is very reactive around other dogs unless they are in her family.

This was my working female - washed for bad hips now a pet. A delightful little dog - great with people - but very intellegent and independant. Not particuarly "attached" - only to the one who gives her food  The Czech/DDR male is very bonded to me. The female has almost too much prey drive in regards to she wants to chase anything that moves. I realized with him you really don't need THAT or even want THAT for good huting drives. SHe is very distractable/He focused. She a handful/he easy. I still have the female - she is a very comical delightful dog and at 8 have no intentions of rehoming her.
cyra vom alyeska - German shepherd dog

This is the male Czech/DDR - and he honestly is not quite bright but learns quickly.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=460211

AND I DON"T MIND HAVING ANY PEDIGREE "INSULTED" - I am looking to gain knowledge!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very interesting thread....in reference to Czech dogs, I would say that pure Czech dogs are very seldon seen anymore. The ones that are from old Czech lines and from the DDR based military lines do tend to have less genetic biddability than other lines. Still, today most Czech dogs have some West in them either working, or show. Its true that the DDR dogs often go back to old East herding lines and have that biddability in various degrees. The Czech dogs of today are not like the Czech dogs of twenty years ago when the curtain came down. Many people live in the past for whatever reasons in their views of lines. I know top sport people that would never touch a Czech dog, regardless of what the accomplishment of these dogs in the sport world. I don't personally believe in the superiority of Czech, DDR, or West working, but they all have certain traits they have a prevalence of and yet it's become so blurred that nothing is definitive anymore. Generally, I agree with Carmen, but I think successful breeding requires mixing the lines for balance as long as the line won't bring saturated negatives that it may take generations to recover from. The last pure Czech dog I had, which was z PS from father and mother, was a very sweet dog herself...but she produced dogs with strong reactive aggression consistently. Most Czech dogs of today should have no problem with SAR.....the degree of success will be dependent on the dog's innate drives coupled with handler ability and training. Hope this makes sense.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks for the input everyone! And hopefully it keeps up. I was hoping the thread would induce some lively discussion and I love hearing all this.



Mrs.K said:


> I don't know enough about Czech line to answer the question but is it the person I think it is?


Not sure if it is. I'm thinking you're thinking it could be one of a few people.  But as a hint it is no one related to SAR.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have heard many times the "intellegence" is attributed to certain dogs from old herding lines.

Does anyone know if these dogs have the gene that they have found in border collies for "intellegence?"

How would, or would not, superior intelligence be an attribute for a SAR dog or any detector dog for that matter?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I have noticed that all three of mine are incredibly intelligent. Especially Indra, I swear_ she knows things_. 

Zenzy didn't have the same intelligence the other have. She was eager to learn and work but she was more primal if that makes sense. She dealt with things much differently than the others do. 

I never thought I'd say that but it's almost like Indra is sophisticated. She's a thinker.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Keep in mind that the genetic make up of the German shepherd is dominated by two very different type dogs; the Swabian and Thuringer dogs. The genetic make up of the Swabian (the herding/shepherd dog) influenced dogs are more of the the thinking type as opposed to the Thuringer (yard/patrol dog) dominated dog who is more reactive and does not think before acting. Also, how a Swabian and Thuringer dog reacts is governed by different internal chemicals. Reactions of Swabian based dogs tend to be serotonin driven as opposed to the Thuringer based dogs that are adrenalin driven.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Swabian/Thuringian I have heard........but different focus on neurotransmitters?
Is there info on that?

And - which characteristic is better for scentwork?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

The very early search and rescue dogs in the Alps were Swabian type dogs. Also, Swabian dogs were used in WWI as ambulance dogs to locate the wounded.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

why? I am wide open here....honestly......as MY goal is planning for the next dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> why? I am wide open here....honestly......as MY goal is planning for the next dog.


Probably because of the traits. Swabian dogs are more biddable and wants you to please, thinks more, easier to train and not so much on the reactive side.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Doc said:


> Keep in mind that the genetic make up of the German shepherd is dominated by two very different type dogs; the Swabian and Thuringer dogs. The genetic make up of the Swabian (the herding/shepherd dog) influenced dogs are more of the the thinking type as opposed to the Thuringer (yard/patrol dog) dominated dog who is more reactive and does not think before acting. Also, how a Swabian and Thuringer dog reacts is governed by different internal chemicals. Reactions of Swabian based dogs tend to be serotonin driven as opposed to the Thuringer based dogs that are adrenalin driven.


Very interesting. Do you have a source for this info?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

MY HEAD IS GOING TO EXPLODE

So today we train with a NAPWDA master trainer (utility, narc not cadaver but detection work...............)

And preference is DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE, DUMB. Well this weekend I am going to call someone I really trust who is a "go to" person for archeaological searches (which transfers to shallow grave searches)..........but she is putting a Czech dog with Tom and Grim to her Sontausen female who......goes back to........Uwe (there, you go old herding lines) 

See, I just don't know if the best dog for narcotics is the best dog for cadaver......at least the type of cadaver calls we mainly get.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Gosh, another Czech dog doing SAR?! 

That sounds like a very interesting pairing! Uwe has been named by quite a few at prodocuing great hunt drive. I'd love to see how those puppies turn ouT!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I imagine those pups may be gone before they hit the ground..assuming the breeding takes....


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> MY HEAD IS GOING TO EXPLODE
> 
> So today we train with a NAPWDA master trainer (utility, narc not cadaver but detection work...............)
> 
> ...


Which Sontausen female? I wouldn't have thought they go back to Uwe... but rather to Ilya ad Schwarzen Zwinger. (The Sontausen foundation lines go back through Aragorn vd Pfalz, as does my great-producing girl Nike [she has something like 13 children and grand-children certified/training in SAR Wildnerness/FEMA/cadaver]).

Why don't you think that drive drive drive is good for cadaver work?

Or are you thinking that it takes a different type of drive--seems like cadaver takes a dog who really has independent hunt drive, while narcotics has more constant feedback to the dog "look there, how about there, there? there? there?"


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

drive drive drive is great for cadaver work but drive drive drive DUMB was what I have heard police like more than once-just heard again tonight. 

I think your last sentence may be what I am closing in on. Most LE work narcotics dog and there is a lot of direction and a very fast pace - most of our cadaver searches are long and tedious. Is a different dog needed for THAT kind of pace/search? It does seem more independant.

I don't direct my dog a whole lot in area search other than watching for coverage gaps and making sure they get covered. He pretty much works a pattern ahead of and around me on his own without a heck of a lot of input from me other than casting him places where I may not go unless I have a reason (like he can clear under a bridge overpass a whole lot quicker than I can take him down there)

Reza vom sontausen does go back to uwe twice ....... I don't know enough about the old herding lines to know what else is there or even for sure if this is the mix - even if it is not sure --Actually my comment was another WL/Czech mix with old herding dogs hmmmmmm -- Not hot on any particular litter; don't know enough there.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Here's Reza's pedigree: Reza von Sontausen - German shepherd dog

No Uwe?

Interestingly, Uwe was a dog you see more in schutzhund bloodlines than elsewhere. His motherline does go back through HGH dogs, but his father and grandfather were BSP/WUSV competitors (top schutzhund competitors). Although... he does go back to Enno Antrefftal, who Vandal was saying produces high hunt drive.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Do she go to Uwe through Asko Schloss ZweibrUggen? Didn 't Sontausen have him? My mind is feeble now though.

No, Through Asko joufne Keyleff? If I read it right.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Samba said:


> Do they go to Uwe through Asko Schloss ZweibrUggen? Didn 't Sontausen have him? My mind is feeble now though.


Yeah, in his later years, he went out west to live with Julia. Looks like you get back to some linebreeding on Uwe through Asko g'son, Kaso (Reza's maternal g-father): 

Kaso von Sontausen - German shepherd dog


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know you have to be OCD (compliment) about bloodlines to really know what is what. Being a SAR person first and a dog person second, I love to hear about these different lines but the reality is it comes down to what is the best tool and requires a leap of faith....because you get to a point you *think* you know about this but realize there is a vast difference between regurgitation and really knowing.

Cycle of knowledge here
I know nothing
I know everything
I know what I don't know and it is more than I know  but at least I know THAT


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

So now I see Nike has produced so well for SAR/Fema what is it about her pedigree that brings that, gives that? Is Aragorn, in your mind, a major contribution or are you mentioning the similarity...head spinning again... I see him in Cora Sontausen. I know Julia has been respected for her production of SAR dogs. But really I only know that because I know some folks with dogs of her breeding..........

And I never commented but I know Lee's Danger's owner and she speaks highly of Danger, but now she also has a younger Czech dog too - this is the Czech dog but it also has West German with dogs whose names I know 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=561897


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Here's Reza's pedigree: Reza von Sontausen - German shepherd dog
> 
> No Uwe?
> 
> Interestingly, Uwe was a dog you see more in schutzhund bloodlines than elsewhere. His motherline does go back through HGH dogs, but his father and grandfather were BSP/WUSV competitors (top schutzhund competitors). Although... he does go back to Enno Antrefftal, who Vandal was saying produces high hunt drive.


I LOVE that pedigree. Oh my god, she's got everything I'd be looking for.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

She is Kathy Holbert's dog. (LETS evaluator from West Virginia) I am going to talk with her this weekend - not so much about the upcoming litter - I think there may be some dogs in that breeding that may be "too much" for me (from the male side) but for her advice from the perspective of a working cadaver dog handler who does a lot fo the same *kind* of cadaver search we get calls for.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

By the way, I will have one litter out of Yukon and Indra. Both have the lines, both have the hunting drive, Yukon has proven himself many times to a lot of people by now and I have one person that has over 20 years of experience and is very well known in NY that also says that he's got it. 

One pup is already promised to a team member. I will keep one myself, since he doesn't get any younger. Once she's OFA'ed and old enough I'll do it. 

The pedigree itself is more than promising and we know that both have everything what it takes. Incredible intelligence, hunt & preydrive and the nerves.










So what you think about the combination?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cant see the details - do you have a link - but it is nice to see what works.

One thing I will say is - I have seen quite a few certified SAR dogs I would not give a plugged nickel for. The biggest defects I have seen are nerve strenght and dogs that cannot work independantly. That balance of having a dog that can work on its own but in cooperation with the handler while having the drives is hard. So new I see where the balance comes in - an awful lot of dogs DEMAND complete direction at all times .. maybe that explains my resistance to the RH test could be based on past experience and the claim from others it is from too much obedience....maybe the handler dependant dog is bred not made and a strong dog will not hurt from the obedience.

When I was concerned about my dog ranging off too much a friend taught me to just work my pattern UNLESS I read that the dog was "on scent' then follow - now I see, I stop, the dog stops, I back up the dog comes back, I go left the dog goes left. How the heck he can be 50-100 yards ahead of me and keep track of my location amazes me. 

Also have noticed many of the BEST dog handlers grew up training horses  I guess if you are working an animal THAT big you better know how to read body language and I think that two way body language communication is an awful lot of it. (You notice such things when you are klutzy and not a 'natural' -


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Cant see the details - do you have a link - but it is nice to see what works.
> 
> One thing I will say is - I have seen quite a few certified SAR dogs I would not give a plugged nickel for. The biggest defects I have seen are nerve strenght and dogs that cannot work independantly. That balance of having a dog that can work on its own but in cooperation with the handler while having the drives is hard. So new I see where the balance comes in - an awful lot of dogs DEMAND complete direction at all times .. maybe that explains my resistance to the RH test could be based on past experience and the claim from others it is from too much obedience....maybe the handler dependant dog is bred not made and a strong dog will not hurt from the obedience.
> 
> ...


I can relate to the horses. Maybe that is why all three of us girls have a hand for dogs and can see things that others cant see. 

We grew up with training horses and watching Schutzhund for many years. Both my sisters are professional horse-trainers by now and very succesfull in what they do. It's the overall family we are all horse and dog crazy. 


Here is the link:http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c134/RosesChealsy/pedigree.png 
to the pedigree.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Also have noticed many of the BEST dog handlers grew up training horses  I guess if you are working an animal THAT big you better know how to read body language and I think that two way body language communication is an awful lot of it. (You notice such things when you are klutzy and not a 'natural' -


That's me, lol (OK..not the best part!!). I do think it's given me a leg up with dog training....

The one thing that's killed me, though...is not being able to FEEL. It has been a little bit of a challenge because I'm so used to basing my stuble cues off the feel of what the horse is doing under you. It's a work in progress!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

For me NOT being a natural I really have had to learn that bond goes for a distance and it is very uncanny how much silent communication there is at a distance. LOL the first thing Grim does when I put him outside is run to the window where my computer is and look in to make eye contact. Cyra has to run the fence to make sure that the squirrels are gone and that no other dogs are about.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sandra, I assume from your post that you are not going to be titling and/or certifying Yukon before you breed them?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Also have noticed many of the BEST dog handlers grew up training horses


I can appreciate this comment but from the other way around. I didn't grow up training horses, just riding them. About twenty years ago, I trained a BLM Mustang and that is when I started to see the similarities. I am now re-training a young appendix quarter horse I bought off the track. The interesting comparison, for me anyway, is the use of pressure and subtle body language to make more or less of it. It is similar when you do helper work but of course, you are looking for different results . lol. Just saying, a sight turn of your body, distance, etc., means a great deal to a dog or horse. The other thing that strikes me about both is the very calm and natural way the best horse and dog trainers carry themselves. You can see it in the people....or maybe not see it is a better way to put it. They only make very subtle movements and the animals respond.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Sandra, I assume from your post that you are not going to be titling and/or certifying Yukon before you breed them?


Urm, first off Indra needs to be two years before she's OFA'ed which gives me an entire year. Secondly I will wait until she's at least two and a half/three years old. So all in all I have round about 2 years. 

So why do you assume that I won't certify or get him titled in anything?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> When I was concerned about my dog ranging off too much a friend taught me to just work my pattern UNLESS I read that the dog was "on scent' then follow - now I see, I stop, the dog stops, I back up the dog comes back, I go left the dog goes left. How the heck he can be 50-100 yards ahead of me and keep track of my location amazes me.


You used to hear of this talked about as a GSD breed trait--"follow ahead"--they will follow you, but they will do it from 50 feet in front of you.

I think all of my dogs with whom I've had a good bond have had it. But I think it's something you don't get from a dog who doesn't get to go for off-leash walks as that relationship is developing. They have to have the chance to get that far away from you to be able to "follow" from a distance. 

I think it is a hunting/herding thing--and also a leadership/relationship thing. If the dog respects you, is working *with* you, their position relative to you is very important to them--think of pack hunting or herding work, for example. If they don't respect you, don't think you are working in a partnership, they don't give a flip where you are--in herding, off-leash walks, or any other activity.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Urm, first off Indra needs to be two years before she's OFA'ed which gives me an entire year. Secondly I will wait until she's at least two and a half/three years old. So all in all I have round about 2 years.
> 
> So why do you assume that I won't certify or get him titled in anything?


I guess I didn't mean to make it sound like I was assuming you were not going to be doing it--just that it's a planned breeding either way? Who on the team is looking for a new pup down the road (just 'cause I'm nosey).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> You used to hear of this talked about as a GSD breed trait--"follow ahead"--they will follow you, but they will do it from 50 feet in front of you.
> 
> I think all of my dogs with whom I've had a good bond have had it. But I think it's something you don't get from a dog who doesn't get to go for off-leash walks as that relationship is developing. They have to have the chance to get that far away from you to be able to "follow" from a distance.
> 
> I think it is a hunting/herding thing--and also a leadership/relationship thing. If the dog respects you, is working *with* you, their position relative to you is very important to them--think of pack hunting or herding work, for example. If they don't respect you, don't think you are working in a partnership, they don't give a flip where you are--in herding, off-leash walks, or any other activity.



That is very true. If you don't have the bond, engagement, respect and trust of your dogs, doesn't matter what you do, they'll be all over the place except with you.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> I guess I didn't mean to make it sound like I was assuming you were not going to be doing it--just that it's a planned breeding either way? Who on the team is looking for a new pup down the road (just 'cause I'm nosey).


The only thing that would keep me away from having a litter is if Indra had bad hips which I doubt. 

You are a very nosy person. I noticed that. 
It's my fellow German. We are the only two people on the team with Schutzhund experience and she's getting a pup. 

I am training three dogs in SAR. I hope I can get all three of them certified within the same time-frame. 

It was funny. When we were at the fire station we tested Yukon with the Swissies. I have not done any indication training with him at all. Two runs and he had it down. 
He is so eager to work and please you, it's incredible. TWO runs and he had it completely down and knew what we wanted from him without any of us having to say anything.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Say just got off the phone with Kathy - it was not Reza but another dog she got through Norbert Safko who she bred. Don't have the pedigrees up will be interesting. Primarily an all Czech breeding doubled up on Tom z PS but she feels Tom is sensible. 

She said it is getting hard to find the good dogs because the demand is so high so she is breeding for herself and to have green dogs for sale.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Had a dog that was from Safko's female.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Someone told me you better know a LOT more than I do to even darken his door.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

GSDElsa said:


> The one thing that's killed me, though...is not being able to FEEL. It has been a little bit of a challenge because I'm so used to basing my stuble cues off the feel of what the horse is doing under you. It's a work in progress!


You do "feel", though. Stop always following what you see and let your instincts take over. Just like with horses. 

Also a past horseman.


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