# Good breeder in NJ



## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Hello,

I had a german shepherd who I had to put down last week because he attacked me (serious injury) and my family. I am now looking to get another puppy but I am scared. Can you guys recommend a good breeder in the area? I need a dog to be good with family and not aggressive

Question: if you dont show your dog that you are the leader, would he attack you?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I don't know any good breeders in your area, but good luck in your search. What are you looking for in a dog?What will you do with the dog?

Sorry about your previous dog. May I ask why he attacked you?


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

I wish I know. He attacked me three times the last attack was serious. He attacked my dad as well. We took them to the hospital and they recommended to put him down they did not want to do exams on him because he was still a puppy 9months old because the doctor thought that everything would come out fine. She wanted us to take him to behaviorist which I dont think they can help or put him down so I decided to put him down because the trust with my dog was not there anymore and we all became scared of him


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## Rusty_212 (Apr 21, 2010)

Really, I cannot recommend any, I'm not sure you should have a dog. Just my .02


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

jessie, you can read about it if you look under the posters previous posts

delta, I'm sorry you had to euthanize your 9mth old puppy, very sad situation.

Did you speak to your trainer about what had happened? If so, what did he say?

I see your first puppy had passed from cancer at 10months old? and now the 9mth old was aggressive? from the same breeder? I'm familiar with your breeder and from what I know produces some nice dogs. (certainly not implying your lying about your two)

I also see you are looking for another but are 'scared'... Frankly at this point, I would be to, you've had a couple of bad experiences, maybe a gsd is not the breed for you?

to answer your question, being a "leader" is about being fair/consistent in training and respect on both sides. It's not about physically dominating a dog or harsh training. 

I have NEVER had a dog of mine attack or bite me out of aggression. 

Your trainer is pretty well known to, he doesn't have a dog that would fit into your family situation? 

I think for you, it may be better to look in a different direction than a gsd for your home,


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

delta7 said:


> I wish I know. He attacked me three times the last attack was serious. He attacked my dad as well. We took them to the hospital and they recommended to put him down they did not want to do exams on him because he was still a puppy 9months old because the doctor thought that everything would come out fine. She wanted us to take him to behaviorist which I dont think they can help or put him down so I decided to put him down because the trust with my dog was not there anymore and we all became scared of him


1. Never blame the dog for the attack, there is always a reason the dog attacks a human. Usually it is due to bad training, or no training at all, pain caused by an injury or the human and many other factors.

2.I would have taken the dog to a behaviorist, because since the puppy was 9 months old the behavior could have been corrected, and it should have been done earlier. And they would have helped him. 

3. I could have been a medical issue or something. Where did you get the dog? Did you train your dog?

I also find it hard to believe a 9 month old puppy can do such damage and have to be put down. This should have been corrected sooner.

ETA: So you did go to a trainer?Oh ok. Still a little confused on how a 9 month old can cause serious injuries. Since the puppy did it before it should have been corrected.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

delta7 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I had a german shepherd who I had to put down last week because he attacked me (serious injury) and my family. I am now looking to get another puppy but I am scared. Can you guys recommend a good breeder in the area? I need a dog to be good with family and not aggressive
> 
> *Question: if you dont show your dog that you are the leader, would he attack you*?


It's not necessarily about being the Alpha dog or 'leader' (specially for a puppy like you had) and coming down like a load of bricks on a young puppy (fear fear fear in the puppy can then cause bites and attacks) as much as we humans having the time, experience and ability to guide our puppies clearly thru the world. Simple things like making them sit before they eat (not free feeding) show this. 

German shepherds can be quite challenging to raise, and also hard to find best match of breeder with puppy with our background/skills/abilities. The fact most of our puppies MUST go to dog classes, must be socialized with tons of people/dogs/the world for the first years, and exercised for hours WITH their humans each week is just much more than many busy people with 'real' lives and work can fit in.

You may want to keep your eye open for a GSD in rescue if you still want to stick with the breed. Since they are older and in a home already, you get a better idea of their personality. 

But you may also want to just pick a breed of dog that is easier to raise and will fit better in your life.


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

I am not lying the first died of cancer at 11 months old, and the second one turned out to be aggressive. I don't think any dog would attack his owners due to lack of exercise. I took my dog to park like twice a week and walked him around the neighborhood. The dog was being trained by ** removed by Admin** and when asked said he did not know why my dog was attacking us. I did not trust his answer maybe he knew and did not tell me. The doctors I spoke too made it seem like I made the reasonable decision to put my puppy down. My dog did not fear anyone. He was nice with other people and dogs. He did not hurt anyone. I dont know if the way he was being trained with the choking collar (that you had to pull on his neck) made him become like this I have no idea. I love German Shepherds. How do you guys manage to train your dogs if you have work. I used to do it in the afternoon. I can say that my dog was socialized but no idea why he acted like this. Maybe he got a cancer tumor in his brain or something. I regret not taking him to a behaviorist but the trust was not there anymore. We were all scared of him. No dog should attack his owners no matter what the reasons were.


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> 1. Never blame the dog for the attack, there is always a reason the dog attacks a human. Usually it is due to bad training, or no training at all, pain caused by an injury or the human and many other factors.
> 
> 2.I would have taken the dog to a behaviorist, because since the puppy was 9 months old the behavior could have been corrected, and it should have been done earlier. And they would have helped him.
> 
> ...


I went to training. Yes the puppy did it before and I corrected him like my trainer told me to do. My puppy started crying from pain when I pulled on his neck and told him the command easy easy, so I thought he would not do it again, but all the sudden I was on the couch and he was laying on the floor almost sleeping (that was the day when I came back from training) I tried to pet him and all the sudden he jumped on me and snapped me and he kept biting me till my father came and kick him away, My puppy was 70 pounds and he almost damaged my right hand nerves according to my doctor, and I am not lying. This is serious. I was upset when he attacked me I did not realize that he had hurt me so much till after the fact. I was in complete shock


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Rusty_212 said:


> Really, I cannot recommend any, I'm not sure you should have a dog. Just my .02



I think your comment is funny just little off though I had a german shepherd before. I was overseas, I got them from people I trusted, where I knew his mom and dad. This breeder here in LI did not show me his mom and dad or anything all he did was giving me a certificate piece of f paper


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

delta7 said:


> I am not lying the first died of cancer at 11 months old, and the second one turned out to be aggressive. I don't think any dog would attack his owners due to lack of exercise. I took my dog to park like twice a week and walked him around the neighborhood. The dog was being trained by ** removed by Admin** and when asked said he did not know why my dog was attacking us. I did not trust his answer maybe he knew and did not tell me. The doctors I spoke too made it seem like I made the reasonable decision to put my puppy down. My dog did not fear anyone. He was nice with other people and dogs. He did not hurt anyone. I dont know if the way he was being trained with the choking collar (that you had to pull on his neck) made him become like this I have no idea. I love German Shepherds. How do you guys manage to train your dogs if you have work. I used to do it in the afternoon. I can say that my dog was socialized but no idea why he acted like this. Maybe he got a cancer tumor in his brain or something. I regret not taking him to a behaviorist but the trust was not there anymore. We were all scared of him. No dog should attack his owners no matter what the reasons were.


Why would you not trust the trainers answer? No one should blame the dog for whatever the reason is, because it is their fault most of the time. I am not trying to be mean, but its true. No dog will attack its owner randomly.

No one said you were lying about your puppy having cancer. You need to talk to your breeder about this issue, since they came from the same one correct?

There is something wrong with this situation, I just can't put my finger on it. Not being able to trust the puppy shouldn't keep you from going to a behaviorist.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

delta7 said:


> I am not lying the first died of cancer at 11 months old, and the second one turned out to be aggressive. I don't think any dog would attack his owners due to lack of exercise. I took my dog to park like twice a week and walked him around the neighborhood. The dog was being trained by ** removed by Admin** and when asked said he did not know why my dog was attacking us. I did not trust his answer maybe he knew and did not tell me. The doctors I spoke too made it seem like I made the reasonable decision to put my puppy down. My dog did not fear anyone. He was nice with other people and dogs. He did not hurt anyone. I dont know if the way he was being trained with the choking collar (that you had to pull on his neck) made him become like this I have no idea. I love German Shepherds. How do you guys manage to train your dogs if you have work. I used to do it in the afternoon. I can say that my dog was socialized but no idea why he acted like this. Maybe he got a cancer tumor in his brain or something. I regret not taking him to a behaviorist but the trust was not there anymore. We were all scared of him. No dog should attack his owners no matter what the reasons were.


I believe you were really bit.

But I also KNOW that GSD puppies are WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY harder to raise properly than other dogs. ESPECIALLY GSD puppies from working lines. 

Fact is, that you don't know what you don't know, and I was shocked and amazed how I THOUGHT I was God's gift to dog training when I raised my first dog (a yellow Lab) to be practically perfect with no trouble at all.

Then I got my first GSD and hit the 'oh my gosh dog training/socialization can be hard' wall! And this GSD wasn't even from 'working' lines!!! Thank goodness I had tons of help from many friends and trainers and classes and help. 

Then I got my 3rd dog, second GSD and first one from working lines and it was like I had to learn to raise puppy all over again! Thank goodness for the continues help and support of my friends and breeder and all the classes and training that taught ME what to do. From the day that puppy came into the house and BEFORE I had huge problems.

Frankly, I don't recommend a GSD to anyone I know, and I REALLY don't recommend one from working lines unless they have tons of background and experience with dogs. It's just too overwhelming and hard for most people that have only been around regular dogs and have the expectations of those type of dogs.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

delta7 said:


> I went to training. Yes the puppy did it before and I corrected him like my trainer told me to do. *My puppy started crying from pain when I pulled on his neck *and told him the command easy easy, so I thought he would not do it again, but all the sudden I was on the couch and he was laying on the floor almost sleeping (that was the day when I came back from training) I tried to pet him and all the sudden he jumped on me and snapped me and *he kept biting me till my father came and kick him away*, My puppy was 70 pounds and he almost damaged my right hand nerves according to my doctor, and I am not lying. This is serious. I was upset when he attacked me I did not realize that he had hurt me so much till after the fact. I was in complete shock


Those may be some reasons the dog attacked you. If your dog is crying form the pain, then you need to stop, and you shouldn't your OWN dog. 

No one said you were lying. You story just seems off.


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Why would you not trust the trainers answer? No one should blame the dog for whatever the reason is, because it is their fault most of the time. I am not trying to be mean, but its true. No dog will attack its owner randomly.
> 
> No one said you were lying about your puppy having cancer. You need to talk to your breeder about this issue, since they came from the same one correct?
> 
> There is something wrong with this situation, I just can't put my finger on it. Not being able to trust the puppy shouldn't keep you from going to a behaviorist.


What do you mean, the trainer did not give me an answer, he said he does not know. I expected an answer from him. He is renowned trainer.
I talked to my breeder. He did not know why the dog got cancer at 11 months. It was heartbreaking to me. That dog was nice was not aggressive at all. Did not growl or anything. The breeder told me we don't know where cancer come. The breeder himself has cancer and he is dying and told me that he does not why he got it. I know there is something wrong maybe it is me maybe not. Now I regret not taking him to behaviorist or at least doing physical exam on him, but my whole relatives started saying you don t want to have a dog who is a liability in your house he could bite your neighbors or whatever... I


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Those may be some reasons the dog attacked you. If your dog is crying form the pain, then you need to stop, and you shouldn't your OWN dog.
> 
> No one said you were lying. You story just seems off.


What seems off? Call my trainer and ask him I am giving you his name for Jesus sake. You want his number. ** removed by Admin** agreed with me and told me that the dog should cry and I quote he said YOU SHOULD MAKE THE DOG SEE EVIL GOD Then ME if he does this to me.
HE TOLD me to correct him with the choking collar if he bites me again and I did this he cried but my dog did it again. I am not going to explain myself again, but this is what happened


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I believe you were really bit.
> 
> But I also KNOW that GSD puppies are WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY harder to raise properly than other dogs. ESPECIALLY GSD puppies from working lines.
> 
> ...


I guess you are right. Maybe I did not know how to raise my second puppy even though he was being trained and taking to walks in parks and stuff. I still feel guilty even though his doctors told me that it was reasonable decision. I know I made a mistake somewhere. I dont think I should get another GSD


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I do think it would help if you took a break. It is hard to lose one dog, two - a young healthy dog at that - is twice as bad. Time to maybe find some dog classes to observe different styles and types of training, time to go out and meet some dogs at events over the summer and fall like agility, Schutzhund, obedience, go to events where dogs will be featured - Barks in the Park and things like that. 

Read some good books - Booth, Clothier, Miller...

Do this in conjunction with looking for a potential breeder, but do not get a puppy until you have figured out better what happened with this dog and are more prepared to raise it to be a happy, healthy family member.


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## Rusty_212 (Apr 21, 2010)

delta7 said:


> I think your comment is funny just little off though I had a german shepherd before. I was overseas, I got them from people I trusted, where I knew his mom and dad. This breeder here in LI did not show me his mom and dad or anything all he did was giving me a certificate piece of f paper


Sorry for that post. Maybe your right, maybe there was something medical that caused the aggression. Or your trainer using doing his job right. I have never had any problems with the 4 I've had and I can't imagine putting a dog down for it. You got both dogs from the same breeder? How much are you willing to pay? Try and find a well established one, they are usually more honest and sell healthy dogs.


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Guys one more thing do you agree with this statement that my trainer gave me: YOU SHOULD MAKE THE DOG SEE EVIL GOD Then ME if he does this to me.
I have always thought that putting a choking collar with spike and pulling on my dogs neck is a horrible way to make the dog obey you. I have my concerns as well as if how the dog was being trained. How do you train your dog to sit, come and calm down do you pull on his neck with a choking collar?? I have always trained the dogs I had with treat not choking collar. I think this method is horrible

Also please be advised that I did not want to put my dog down. I called my breeder he did not want him back for free. I paid 2500 for him. I called my trainer on Saturday told him what happened. he said he would take him and that he would call me back. He never called. I texted him on Sunday like five times did not return my messages. I called him on Sunday did not pick up. I felt like I was being left alone. I took him to hospital and I texted and called my trainer from there he did not get back to me. Guess what He got back to me at 9pm on Sunday and he said that he would take him but that was toooo late the dog has already been put down. I am sorry but I feel angry and upset at me, the breeder and trainer.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

delta7 said:


> What do you mean, the trainer did not give me an answer, he said he does not know. I expected an answer from him. He is renowned trainer.
> I talked to my breeder. He did not know why the dog got cancer at 11 months. It was heartbreaking to me. That dog was nice was not aggressive at all. Did not growl or anything. The breeder told me we don't know where cancer come. The breeder himself has cancer and he is dying and told me that he does not why he got it. I know there is something wrong maybe it is me maybe not. Now I regret not taking him to behaviorist or at least doing physical exam on him, but my whole relatives started saying you don t want to have a dog who is a liability in your house he could bite your neighbors or whatever... I


You said you didn't believe your trainer. I am not saying anything bad about him at all. I never once said there was a reason for the cancer. i was saying that there has to be a reason for the dog attacking you. You are reading my posts wrong.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

delta7 said:


> What seems off? Call my trainer and ask him I am giving you his name for Jesus sake. You want his number. ** removed by Admin** agreed with me and told me that the dog should cry and I quote he said YOU SHOULD MAKE THE DOG SEE EVIL GOD Then ME if he does this to me.
> HE TOLD me to correct him with the choking collar if he bites me again and I did this he cried but my dog did it again. I am not going to explain myself again, but this is what happened


I said something seems off and I can't put my finger on it. I never said anything bad about your trainer. I said, if the dog is crying in pain, then something is wrong, that isn't way you should train a dog, by hurting them.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that I said the trainer is bad, I just don't think its right to inflict pain to train the dog. Thats all I said.I never said you had to repeat yourself.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

delta7 said:


> Guys one more thing do you agree with this statement that my trainer gave me: YOU SHOULD MAKE THE DOG SEE EVIL GOD Then ME if he does this to me.
> I have always thought that putting a choking collar with spike and pulling on my dogs neck is a horrible way to make the dog obey you. I have my concerns as well as if how the dog was being trained. How do you train your dog to sit, come and calm down do you pull on his neck with a choking collar??* I have always trained the dogs I had with treat* not choking collar. I think this method is horrible


Thats a great way to train a dog. Its positive reinforcement(especially for a puppy). There are also other ways, to get the dog to sit, stay, and calm down. There are also many books you can use and dvds you can get.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> What seems off? Call my trainer and ask him I am giving you his name for Jesus sake. You want his number. ** removed by Admin** agreed with me and told me that the dog should cry and I quote he said YOU SHOULD MAKE THE DOG SEE EVIL GOD Then ME if he does this to me.
> HE TOLD me to correct him with the choking collar if he bites me again and I did this he cried but my dog did it again. I am not going to explain myself again, but this is what happened


I know you only did what your trainer told you to do. We all do the best we can with what we know. And CLEARLY it had gotten out of hand for you to be so injured.

What most of us feel, is that months and months ago, there are tons of POSITIVE training methods and leadership skills we can learn that are all positive and teach our dogs in a calm and comforting manner that this is a happy world that I will be guiding you thru. 

When instead, we start to "told me that the dog should cry and I quote he said YOU SHOULD MAKE THE DOG SEE EVIL GOD ' for a YOUNG puppy going thru all the normal fear stages that they need to be guided thru, coming down on them so hard can mess them up....................forever.

Puppy Development

Understanding Puppy

I do not blame you. I think you did the best you could with what you knew. You even stepped up and went to a trainer you thought would help. GOOD FOR YOU! 

But I also think that raising a GSD pup from working lines just may be too much for you at this point (it's too much for many people!!!!) so it would be better to get an older dog that you could see and trust from a rescue/shelter. Or pick a dog that is more suited to your family and experience. There are millions of dogs in the USA needing homes, so I'm sure the perfect pup is out there for you.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Have you tried rescuing a GSD?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I don't know what to say. You got two pups from someone I feel is a very responsible breeder who has produced many fine dogs. 

Sadly you lost one pup to cancer. 

And just recently you lost the second one to behavior issues you didn't thoroughly investigate before having the pup put down. You ignored suggestions to take the pup to the vet for a thorough examination to eliminate a physical problem for his aggression and you ignored the suggestions to engage a behaviorist. 

Instead you chose to eliminate the problem by having the pup put down and immediately start looking to replace him with puppy number three.

My suggestion would be to wait, investigate other breeds and perhaps select one that is more closely associated to your personality and abilities to handle dogs. There's no "one size fits all" breed of dog - there will always be breeds that some people shouldn't own and perhaps the GSD isn't a breed that's correct for you. 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Yes, I regret not taking him to a behaviorist. I just did not believe that they were going to help me and I did not want to put my dog on medications. I admit I did mistake. As far as physical exam is concerned neither his doctor or the doctor we saw at the hospital wanted to do MRI or blood tests because they were sure that the results would come out negative. One of the doctors told me that his behavior could be pure dominance aggressiveness and would take long time to fix and it is almost non fixable. I am telling you I was scared from my dog. Every one in the family was scared yet this fear prevented us from making the right decision. I was stupid to put him down


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Have you tried rescuing a GSD?


How do you do that? Is there a website I could go to rescue? And what do you think of petfinder?


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

One more question please answer: Let's say you don't train or socialize your GSD puppy, will he become dominant and turn on you (attack you) when he becomes an adult?
I did not do this to my puppy but this is a general question.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

delta7 said:


> How do you do that? Is there a website I could go to rescue? And what do you think of petfinder?


Yes, use Petfinder, thats how my family found our black GSD.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I do not think you are lying at all. I believe what you say happened.

I will tell you what I think happened with the second one, and this is pure speculation on my part.

I think you used to much negative reinforcement with a young dog , collar yanking ( and it sounds like you had a prong collar on him) and him yipping , well he obviously wasn't happy with it and he may have figured to 'expect' constant corrections so he was basically defending himself. He had no trust in his owner. 

IF your trainer said he had no idea why your dog attacked, then I wouldn't put much stock in that trainer. 

You cannot expect a breeder to return your payment for a dog that I think was messed up by bad training. I know I wouldn't but YES I would take the dog back, I wouldn't pay you for him tho.

It's to bad this young dog had to pay with his life, (and I do not fault your decision to euthanize him, that was your decision).

I think you got way in over your head with a dog that was to much for you, didn't go to a trainer who uses less harsh methods of training. 

My suggestion, do your homework more thoroughly. Read up on the breed and the differences in lines, training options etc. 

Petfinder is a good resource for an older more settled gsd, what you see is what you get type of thing. Maybe a gsd isn't the dog for you? Choose wisely and do your homework. 

Personally, if the breeder said he'd take the dog back I would have taken him back there, he may have been able to turn the dog around and find him a suitable home.


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## Juta (Mar 13, 2010)

*Your GSD needed exercise*



delta7 said:


> I am not lying the first died of cancer at 11 months old, and the second one turned out to be aggressive. I don't think any dog would attack his owners due to lack of exercise. I took my dog to park like twice a week and walked him around the neighborhood. The dog was being trained by ** removed by Admin** and when asked said he did not know why my dog was attacking us. I did not trust his answer maybe he knew and did not tell me. The doctors I spoke too made it seem like I made the reasonable decision to put my puppy down. My dog did not fear anyone. He was nice with other people and dogs. He did not hurt anyone. I dont know if the way he was being trained with the choking collar (that you had to pull on his neck) made him become like this I have no idea. I love German Shepherds. How do you guys manage to train your dogs if you have work. I used to do it in the afternoon. I can say that my dog was socialized but no idea why he acted like this. Maybe he got a cancer tumor in his brain or something. I regret not taking him to a behaviorist but the trust was not there anymore. We were all scared of him. No dog should attack his owners no matter what the reasons were.


I get up at 5 so I get to walk my dog at least a mile, then feeding and then a half hour frisbee. Same walk at 6 when I get back. Yes my dog requires that much time


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

delta7 said:


> How do you do that? Is there a website I could go to rescue? And what do you think of petfinder?


No, no, no, no!

Rescue dogs are not training wheels for someone who has just put a dog down due to aggression. And lost another from cancer and should be still grieving for both. 

Rescue dogs can be easy-peasy no issues dogs, no doubt about that. There are dogs I have met who impress me with their temperament and sweetness. Who are bomb proof and could walk into any home and do well. 

However, it takes someone with some good skills to evaluate that, and then to determine what kind of match home there is for that dog. 

Getting a dog out of a shelter is not something I would recommend here. 

And frankly, do you think a GOOD rescue is going to take the chance with one of their dogs in this situation? You've rescued an amazing GSD, put love, time, and care into them...the only way I'd put one of my fosters in this situation is if I was going with them. 

Again, you need to go to training classes (without a dog) observe, meet people and dogs at dog events, read books, hang out at meet and greets, talk to people, TAKE YOUR TIME, maybe volunteer with rescue, shelters, or helping at a breeder's kennels...but you need to be around dogs so you are PREPARED.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

delta7 said:


> One more question please answer: Let's say you don't train or socialize your GSD puppy, will he become dominant and turn on you (attack you) when he becomes an adult?
> I did not do this to my puppy but this is a general question.


This is a great question from you because I think it's the core reason you had problems with your last dog.

All puppies need to be trained and socialized for the first few year. I personally feel that GSD's (particularly from working lines) need this even more!!!! 

Puppies are 'work' and take tons of time. Hours of planned exercising, hours of planned training, and HOURS of planned socialization.

I realize that many people have extremely busy lives with family, work, and activities outside the home. That's fine! But to add a puppy to that life (especially a GSD puppy) isn't fair TO THE PUPPY! 

Some people's lives just aren't condusive to adding a dog. That's fine and why we can also get a cat, or bird, or fish or...................... 

Think this quote puts it well:

- Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. *Albert Einstein*

If I were you, I'd probably hold off on getting any dog for awhile. But NO WAY would I go to a shelter/petfinder. Many of the dogs end up in shelters BECAUSE they also were given no training and socialization. Too much work so they got dumped in a shelter with all their issues. A rescue is better cause someone has pulled a dog from a shelter and worked with it, but it STILL may be a dog with issue beyond your current experience and ability to work with them. Issues like these can't be manhandled, corrected, and prong collared thru.


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

A prong collar was used on my puppy. The trainer gave it to me and told me to use it. I had my concerns but the trainer kept telling me that my dog is a German shepherd and can handle this collar. Maybe my puppy was scared from me and he thought that I was punishing him every time I pulled on the leash. He got scared so this was why he attacked me. I seriously raised my first gsd (the one who got cancer) myself. I trained him took him to park. He was very sweet and gentle. This second puppy became aggressive and I think one of the reasons was the way he was being trained. I am not going to give up on this breed. This is one of my favorites. In the future probably in the next year or so, I am going to get another puppy. I think I just need a break right now. Thank you all for your help and support.


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## Rusty_212 (Apr 21, 2010)

I never had to use a prong collar. A choker yes but usually a shake of their scruff is sufficiant enough for correction.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

delta7 said:


> A prong collar was used on my puppy. The trainer gave it to me and told me to use it. I had my concerns but the trainer kept telling me that my dog is a German shepherd and can handle this collar. Maybe my puppy was scared from me and he thought that I was punishing him every time I pulled on the leash. He got scared so this was why he attacked me. I seriously raised my first gsd (the one who got cancer) myself. I trained him took him to park. He was very sweet and gentle. This second puppy became aggressive and I think one of the reasons was the way he was being trained. I am not going to give up on this breed. This is one of my favorites. In the future probably in the next year or so, I am going to get another puppy. I think I just need a break right now. Thank you all for your help and support.


How much training (and what kind) did your puppy have before the prong was introduced? How old was the puppy before the trainer had you start using a prong? 

Halo is a working line shepherd, and we took 5 obedience classes before she was a year and a half old, all of them positive reinforcement based using food rewards. In these classes training collars such as prongs or chokes were not allowed. We could use flat collars, martingales, or harnesses. This foundation of motivational training built a great attitude of happy enthusiastic compliance, and I'm just now working with a private trainer using a prong collar to add corrections to our training - we had our first session last Friday, with Lisa Maze, who works with Michael Ellis, another well known, renowned trainer. If you google him you'll find lots of video clips online, and although he and Lisa train and and have successfully competed in Schutzhund, French Ring and Mondio, their early foundation training is very motivational and uses a lot of food and toy rewards. Training should be FUN, for both of you, and if it's not, something is wrong. Your trainer should not have dismissed your concerns like that. 

Halo did amazing in our first session, and so did Keefer, who is almost 5 years old. I would never start using compulsion with a young dog that did not already have that foundation firmly established. Could my dogs have "handled" it? Sure, probably. But I want to spend plenty of time teaching my dogs why they should WANT to work with me before I start teaching them that they HAVE TO, and I never want to have to rely on them wearing a training collar to obey me - ideally, they'll obey me whether they're wearing a collar or not, or whether there's a leash attached to it or not. One thing that I really liked about Lisa is that she made it very clear that while she has ideas and will make recommendations, the direction our training takes is entirely up to me. If there's ever anything I'm not comfortable with, that's my decision. There's no "one size fits all, this is how we're going to do it" attitude about training. I get to decide what's important to me and what's not, and she'll work me to accomplish my goals within that framework. 

I really think the big mistake here was to go solely on a trainer's reputation (and he may very well be a good trainer) without stopping to think if it's the kind of training you really want or need. Methods that may be perfectly appropriate for hard core working line dogs being trained in Schutzhund may not be the best if your goal is simply to have a well mannered pet dog. But what's done is done, and I don't mean to beat you up about it. Before you get another dog though, you should investigate other training opportunities in the area, and maybe observe a few classes.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

delta7 said:


> One more question please answer: Let's say you don't train or socialize your GSD puppy, will he become dominant and turn on you (attack you) when he becomes an adult?
> I did not do this to my puppy but this is a general question.


No. A well bred dog of good temperament should not attack their owner just because they haven't been trained or properly socialized. But they won't be magically well behaved and well mannered either, and would probably be pretty difficult to live with.


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> How much training (and what kind) did your puppy have before the prong was introduced? How old was the puppy before the trainer had you start using a prong?
> 
> Halo is a working line shepherd, and we took 5 obedience classes before she was a year and a half old, all of them positive reinforcement based using food rewards. In these classes training collars such as prongs or chokes were not allowed. We could use flat collars, martingales, or harnesses. This foundation of motivational training built a great attitude of happy enthusiastic compliance, and I'm just now working with a private trainer using a prong collar to add corrections to our training - we had our first session last Friday, with Lisa Maze, who works with Michael Ellis, another well known, renowned trainer. If you google him you'll find lots of video clips online, and although he and Lisa train and and have successfully competed in Schutzhund, French Ring and Mondio, their early foundation training is very motivational and uses a lot of food and toy rewards. Training should be FUN, for both of you, and if it's not, something is wrong. Your trainer should not have dismissed your concerns like that.
> 
> ...



My poor puppy was 5 months when I took him to training. The prong collar was introduced right away when he was 5 month old. I feel bad seriously that I took him to training. I trained my first dog who died of cancer using treat I swear and he was nice and never attempt to even growl on us. I put him down last week and it is still bothering me. I loved my two dogs.


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

Please guys if you know of any good breeders in central, south or north NJ, PA please let me know


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

delta7 said:


> My poor puppy was 5 months when I took him to training. The prong collar was introduced right away when he was 5 month old. I feel bad seriously that I took him to training.


So this was his first training class? Don't feel bad about taking him to training, you _should_ take dogs to training. But he should have also had a puppy socialization class starting somewhere between 8 or 9 weeks old to maybe 12 to 14 weeks old, 16 weeks at the oldest. And after that, a beginning obedience class for older puppies/young dogs, that's entirely reward based. Before you even think about getting another puppy I would have a plan ready of where you might take classes like that. 

Honestly, many good breeders would not sell you a puppy after this:



> I called my trainer on Saturday told him what happened. *he said he would take him* and that he would call me back. He never called. I texted him on Sunday like five times did not return my messages. I called him on Sunday did not pick up. I felt like I was being left alone. I took him to hospital and I texted and called my trainer from there he did not get back to me. Guess what *He got back to me at 9pm on Sunday and he said that he would take him but that was toooo late the dog has already been put down.*


On Saturday you decided to see if your trainer would take the dog, and he said he would. By Sunday evening you had already given up on him getting back to you (did it occur to you that he might be out of town?) and the dog was dead. I understand that this was a very difficult situation for you and your family, but you couldn't even wait a couple of days before putting the dog down after your trainer had committed to taking him. I could understand if both the breeder and your trainer said they didn't want him, but that was not the case here. 

And this:



> Yes, I regret not taking him to a behaviorist.* I just did not believe that they were going to help me and I did not want to put my dog on medications*. I admit I did mistake. *As far as physical exam is concerned neither his doctor or the doctor we saw at the hospital wanted to do MRI or blood tests because they were sure that the results would come out negative. *One of the doctors told me that his behavior could be pure dominance aggressiveness and would take long time to fix and it is almost non fixable.


Your vet decided BEFORE they even examined the dog that there was nothing they could do, and you did not believe that a behaviorist could help, again, without even contacting one. Like I said, I'm not trying to beat you up, but I think you should realize how this will look to a prospective breeder. How confident do you think they feel that you will not give up on the next dog before pursuing all available options?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

delta7 said:


> Please guys if you know of any good breeders in central, south or north NJ, PA please let me know


Please do not get another GSD until you get more experience with the breed....and time to heal from the last 2 dogs.

Most of the time, training issues are issues cause of ME! Not what I'm doing on purpose, but instead just cause of stuff I don't know. The guilt I would feel if that lack of knowledge led to the death of a 9 month old puppy would be immense. 

Think instead of jumping right into the GSD puppy world again, you should maybe take a step back and prepare a bit more with good trainers and BEHAVIORISTS to use instead of letting the situation get so out of control that you get seriously bit before taking the problem seriously. And then having the only choice (in your mind) for the situation to be putting your puppy down.

As people mentioned, there were things we all need to do with socialization, exercise and training from the day that puppy hit our house to be a good owner raising our puppy up in a wonderful and happy world. Puppies need love, play, structure and guidance. But, with a puppy, you can do that with praise, treats, toys and positive rewards.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I agree with everyone else, DO NOT GET A PUPPY OR A DOG RIGHT NOW.

Dogs are not just something you can have and then once that one is gone, you hop into getting another.

Training is the key to a good dog, even shelter dogs need training.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I totally agree with the above posts.

I do not think this is the time for you to jump back in and get another gsd. You need to educate yourself ALOT more on training and living with gsd's. 

While I know you may have been scared of him, I feel you did jump the gun by putting him down so fast without giving the trainer a chance to get back to you and/or by not returning him to the breeder. 

I think you posted the breeder would take him back but would not give you back any money,,well I don't think the trainer would have paid you for him either so why not return him to the breeder? 

You need to step back, do more research and be better prepared IF you get another gsd. Honestly, I don't think this breed is for you, a more sedate breed would most likely be better.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think you posted the breeder would take him back but would not give you back any money,,well I don't think the trainer would have paid you for him either so why not return him to the breeder?


It sounds like the breeder _wouldn't_ take the dog back, but maybe I'm misinterpreting this line:



> I called my breeder he did not want him back for free.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Debbie, you could be right, I was kind of interpreting the opposite,,not sure now


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## delta7 (Jun 6, 2010)

My breeder would not take him NOT even for free. I called the trainer right after I came back home from his training. We trained on Saturday so he was not out of town. My dog attacked me on Saturday right after I came home from the training. Isn't weird??
Anyway, I already mentioned that I am not buying any puppies right now, but I will maybe next year or so


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

thanks for clarifying, I was interpreting wrong.


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## Juta (Mar 13, 2010)

delta7 said:


> I think your comment is funny just little off though I had a german shepherd before. I was overseas, I got them from people I trusted, where I knew his mom and dad. This breeder here in LI did not show me his mom and dad or anything all he did was giving me a certificate piece of f paper


I agree you should not have a dog, I have never had a dog attack me, not to talk about a 9 month old puppy attack me..... It is not the dog, its the owner. 
As I posted before you need a license to fish, but no license is required to have children or dogs. 
And as to you comment, about the breeder, did you ask to see the parents, or did you just buy the dog without doing your research?
putting down a 9 month old puppy, you should have at least make an effort to maybe give him up, like giving him to someone that has the time and the know how to earn the respect of a dog, GSD's are not for everyone, 
I recommend you get a goldfish


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## Juta (Mar 13, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I believe you were really bit.
> 
> But I also KNOW that GSD puppies are WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY harder to raise properly than other dogs. ESPECIALLY GSD puppies from working lines.
> 
> ...


Hear Hear!!!


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## Juta (Mar 13, 2010)

*You should not be allowed to get another GSD*



delta7 said:


> My breeder would not take him NOT even for free. I called the trainer right after I came back home from his training. We trained on Saturday so he was not out of town. My dog attacked me on Saturday right after I came home from the training. Isn't weird??
> Anyway, I already mentioned that I am not buying any puppies right now, but I will maybe next year or so


you seem to be internet savy, why did you not look for rescue.. never seen a 9 month old pup that could not be trained. 
I have never used a prong collar. a regular choker will do just fine, correction has to be done within the next second, otherwise the dog has no idea why you yanking him. Positive reinforcement works just fine.
Also from reading your answers, I have a question how old are you, you seem to lack the most important thing:
Patience and maturity, as i said before get yourself a goldfish


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## mockbam5 (Jan 27, 2010)

...


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I never did well with gold fish. My friend Ruth did but she killed the gold fish


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## irongrl (May 24, 2010)

Juta said:


> you seem to be internet savy, why did you not look for rescue.. never seen a 9 month old pup that could not be trained.
> I have never used a prong collar. a regular choker will do just fine, correction has to be done within the next second, otherwise the dog has no idea why you yanking him. Positive reinforcement works just fine.
> Also from reading your answers, I have a question how old are you, you seem to lack the most important thing:
> Patience and maturity, as i said before get yourself a goldfish


I agree with everything you said, except that this person should not look for a rescue dog. This person should not have a dog at all.
I cannot imagine putting a 9 month old puppy to sleep. This is so disturbing to me.

I pray that this person is not serious about getting another puppy soon.


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## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

delta7 said:


> Please guys if you know of any good breeders in central, south or north NJ, PA please let me know


 
Please don't. Seriously. I would not, at this point, want this person near another dog.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Personally I think the dog deserved a second chance somewhere-although it might not have been easy and the end result might have been the same-while I don't think she should rush into another dog I also think its really harsh to say she should get a gold fish-or never own another dog


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

delta7 said:


> My breeder would not take him NOT even for free. I called the trainer right after I came back home from his training. We trained on Saturday so he was not out of town. *My dog attacked me on Saturday right after I came home from the training. Isn't weird??*
> Anyway, I already mentioned that I am not buying any puppies right now, but I will maybe next year or so


I am starting to think you shouldn't have a dog, from a rescue or a breeder.

Your dog attacked you because you were hurting him at the training, well thats IMO.


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## FLyMuSLiMa (Apr 25, 2010)

Gosh; this is a scary thread.... Yeah ummmm, you NEED to hold off on animals; period right about now; just take some time out for yourself; and relax; decide what you want out of a pet and realize; dogs and any other animal in general tend to be loyal; but it's never a sure thing; it's not promised; dogs have emotions and feelings just like us; and maybe your dog felt as though their boundaries weren't being respected...


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## Juta (Mar 13, 2010)

*Still want to know how old you are?*

This is a typical example, so many dogs end up in shelters because people think its cute to have a puppy, but are clueless what a GSD needs.
I never said he should get a rescue, all I said was why did you not give the puppy a second chance. 
I am no attorney, but you do not get the death penalty for self defense. AS a matter of fact in this country you get a free pass for killing someone in self defense,
your pup was just defending himself to your cruel treatment.
BTW is their a way to alert breeders of a moron like this, so he cannot get another GSD?
like an early warning system for dog abusers?
Maybe we should implement something like that!!!!! like Amber alert


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