# Sticky  Angulation, why?



## marosmith

I personally like the look of an athletic dog, a good runner. Why is their such a stress on rear hip angulation? It seems like it's creating unathletic dogs with suceptibility to health problems, but why? Is it just because the AKC standard says so, regardless if logic/consequences?

Thanks,


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## allieg

I think that's basicly it.I hate the look too.I am constantly critiqueing the 2 other Shepherd in our class because they are from American show lines.


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## CookieTN

It's just for looks.








Severe angulation causes more hip problems.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the standard does not call for severe angulation. It calls for a slope on the croup, but not a dramatic slope. And yes I have read it.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Matt Smith Why is their such a stress on rear hip angulation? Is it just because the AKC standard says so, regardless if logic/consequences?


The purpose of angulation is to provide a more far reaching, fluid trot. As show breeders have sought to produce a more ground covering, "flying" trot, rear angulation has become more and more extreme.



> Originally Posted By: Matt Smith Is it just because the AKC standard says so, regardless if logic/consequences?


The AKC standard doesn't actually say so. It is the interpretation and common (seemingly intentional) faulty measurement of angles defined in the standard that leads to this.




> Originally Posted By: CookieGSDSevere angulation causes more hip problems.


This is a myth. Rear angulation results from the length of the stifle, nothing to do with the hips. 

While severe angulation can definitely sacrifice overall athleticism, creating a dog who can trot beautifully but can't gallop or jump well, has slow speed and lacks agility and in many cases can't even walk normally (this being why it occurs in dogs bred for the show ring, but not dogs bred for utility purposes), it does NOT equate to more hip problems. Hip joint conformation has nothing to do with angulation and is not affected by angulation.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Matt SmithI personally like the look of an athletic dog, a good runner. Why is their such a stress on rear hip angulation?
> Thanks,


The rear angulation is of the hind limbs not the hips.


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## cliffson1

Excellent reply Chris to CookieGSD's assertion about HD and angulation.!!!


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## Brightelf

A few years ago, the breed with the highest incidence of HD was the British Bulldog. No sloped topline there. It has nothing to do with the topline, rather other factors. And, MANY small mixes have HD, owners only learn about it later on in life when the little dogs get x-rayed for other issues, or when the HD becomes too aparent with other arthritic changes in the hip.


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:A few years ago, the breed with the highest incidence of HD was the British Bulldog. No sloped topline there. It has nothing to do with the topline, rather other factors.


Good point.









The OFA website has statistics on Hip Dysplasia online, from 1974 through December 2008, here - http://offa.org/hipstatbreed.html Bulldogs top that list with over 70% of all dogs evaluated being dysplastic. Golden Retrievers have, percentage wise, more HD in the breed than German Shepherds do ...


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## marosmith

That website is very interesting, thanks. It's good to know there is no good reason for this.


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## Andaka

> Quote: It's good to know there is no good reason for this.


The belief is that with a somewhat longer stifle, the dog can cover more ground per stride while trotting. This is important for the herding dogs as they have to trot for hours keeping the sheep where they belong. 

Now, unfortunately, we live in a world where if a little is good, then more is better. So a once useful tool has been horribly exagerated by many breeders in both the German andAmerican show lines.


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## Xeph

And under utilized/avoided in the working.


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## crackem

yeah, because the working dogs i've seen have so much trouble covering lots of ground and going all day. I can take mine out on a few hundred acres and have them follow me on a 3 wheeler (yeah, it's old) and they go for hours and some pretty good speeds with no problems. I haven't seen too many limitations in working dogs concerning their "angulation" as far as covering ground. They can also jump up onto or over pretty much anything


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Andaka Now, unfortunately, we live in a world where if a little is good, then more is better. So a once useful tool has been horribly exagerated by many breeders in both the German andAmerican show lines.












Well put.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: crackemyeah, because the working dogs i've seen have so much trouble covering lots of ground and going all day.....


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## Xeph

Yes crackem, and I've also seen the jackal dogs that couldn't move their way out of a paper bag 

I'm not talking about the dogs that have decent angles in the rear. I'm talking about dogs that are so straight they may as well be sable chows


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## crackem

what do Jackals have to do with anything? If it wasn't for their weak ass ends they would probably be thought of as ruler of the plains, not the lion. If you're talking about another variation of showline, I don't think they're any better structurally than an AM GSD, but I have at least seen some that work very well. I haven't come across many sable looking chow's in working lines either.


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## Xeph

No, I'm talking about working line dogs that have NO rear....and that's just as bad as too much.


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:If it wasn't for their weak ass ends they would probably be thought of as ruler of the plains, not the lion.


I think you're thinking about hyenas.


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## crackem

I was, good catch. I guess I wasn't thinking a whole lot when I was typing.


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## Briska

Honestly, what did von Stefanitz say when he 'started' the breed? I am pretty sure that when he was talking about working dogs he didn#t mean dogs that are so low in the back that they can clean up the floor with their butts


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## CookieTN

> Originally Posted By: BriskaHonestly, what did von Stefanitz say when he 'started' the breed? I am pretty sure that when he was talking about working dogs he didn#t mean dogs that are so low in the back that they can clean up the floor with their butts


I agree.


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## Doc

Hyenas with the flying trots, now that's a sight for sore eyes! "Don't look Ethel ..."


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## Amaruq

Keep it civil folks. No need for overly broad generalizations.


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## NancyJ

I must admit my workingline dog would "look" a bit better with a little more angulation in the back and shoulders and a shorter back but he can go all day, climb ladders, crawl on his belly, jump like a fiend, walk on his back legs..........[he will walk like this for a good while when we have elevated cadaver problems, never had a GSD before who could do that] 

wolves and coyotes don't have a lot of angulation and cover a lot of ground.


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## Xeph

And I'd like to reiterate that just because a dog has some rear, it doesn't automatically make him a cripple


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## SunCzarina

Here's a very odd idea:

Angulation causes excessive dirtiness. 

For years I've called Morgan a dirty dog, if there's mud she'll get in it. 4 years she lived with Luther (DDR - built like a bread truck), they'd take the same walks, play in the same muddy yard. He never got anywhere nearly as dirty as her. They would go outside for 5 minutes in the mud, Luther would get his feet slightly dirty. Morgan would be covered, her feet, legs, the whole bootie and her tummy would be soaked. I always wrote it off thinking Luther's a fancy dog, he doesn't like to be wet so he's being more careful. 

Now I have Otto, also east german. He's a puppy and Morgan is now 7 1/2 years old - in the yard, he's running, leaping, bounding - she walks or trots. They go on the same walks - he's climbing in a snowbank, she's walking on the sidewalk.

Same thing, we get home from a walk, Morgan's legs and under carriage are soaked and filthy. Otto has wet feet and that's it.

Conclusion - Morgan isn't a dirty nasty dog. She can't help but get muddy becuase it's the way she walks with those angulated legs.


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## Brightelf

I've got an EasternBlock Square-Butt model, too.. and he stays pretty clean. But, that's just cos he moans & snuggles in & grinds the mud and slime into Momma's clean jeans!

Will say that his movement isn't floating or graceful, even at a trot-- more powerful than float-y or attractive. Envision a 320 lb Green Bay Packer linebacker twirling in a pink beruffled tutu across a ballet stage. His movement is efficient, but it ain't purty.


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## Xeph

Packers FTW!!


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## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfI've got an EasternBlock Square-Butt model, too.. and he stays pretty clean. But, that's just cos he moans & snuggles in & grinds the mud and slime into Momma's clean jeans!
> 
> Will say that his movement isn't floating or graceful, even at a trot-- more powerful than float-y or attractive. Envision a 320 lb Green Bay Packer linebacker twirling in a pink beruffled tutu across a ballet stage. His movement is efficient, but it ain't purty.










I need to see Grimm in a pink tutu... come on, he'd do it for Mommy!

I can't say my DDR boys were as pretty to watch running as Morgan. They sort of bob along with those big thunder butts pounding. 

Morgan just floats, like she's suspended in the air. When she was younger I used to try to count how many times her feet touched the ground when she ran full blast across the back yard with Luther on her tail. Gave up on that becuase she was moving too fast but she could never out run Luther. Or outsmart him, he'd try to figure out which angle she would be coming from then he'd body slam her!


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## NancyJ

I can say my "fat ass" Czech dog is the same way, not so graceful but the only time I have seen him fall was when he fell into a drainage culvert obscured by brush and he popped right out - it was about a 10 foot fall. 

My German Showlines x working cross was beautiful to watch [daughters boyfrend would roller blade with him and the dog appeared to be suspended in air] but I cannot count the number of times he lost his footing on the woods and never did get down the knack of climbing things.

It is so hard to look at pictures of the "right" angulation because stacking can alter the view so much. 

This is a horrid picture - it was summer, he had not filled out yet, and the picture was at an angle. Since this was taken, he has added muscle to the thighs and the chest has sprung more,the , but he stands square front and back with no cowhock, single tracks, but does not "float" [but the back legs come forward enough to overlap slightly the front legs on the trot] - but I *think* my assesment is - long back, steep shoulder. The stance is bad making the leg look straight but I think there really is adequate angulation in the back. Yes/no/maybe? [oh the end of the tail was lost in an accident] - - - more of a learning question

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/460211.html


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## SunCzarina

I was looking for pictures of Luther (DDR) and Morgan (curvaceous) standing next to eachother, couldn't find what I was looking for but I found: 










Kinda forgot becuase the blond dog passed through here briefly. He was the same height as Luther only heavier boned but look at the difference from behind. Blond dog could never outrun Luther, no matter how hard he tried. Also now that's it been mentioned, once, only once I saw Luther loose his balance. He used to climb the ladders on docks to get off the boat.


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## Brightelf

Nancy, how old was Grim in the picture? HANDSOME, by the way!

WHOA, Luther Tuff Bunz!!
















Interesting re angulation, and.... stability? Grimm has taken what would have been horrific tumbles and waltzed right through them. My W. German showlines dog hadn't that type of stability, but he didn't fall often. Showline dogs aren't uncapable-- I just never realized this before, but the "brick house build," while not float-y, really does provide some stability. Grimm charges down cliffs and ultrasteep inclines CHOKED with brambles and vines, pocked with deep trenches from boar, and just dances along, remaining somehow upright.

Again, I love (and prefer) the harmonious look of those highlines trotting-- I LOVE the Sieger lines--when they are not overangulated. But, have also noted the functional benefits of the squarer dog in dealing with covering ground over irregular (to put it mildly) terrain.


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## NancyJ

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfNancy, how old was Grim in the picture? HANDSOME, by the way!


He was 2.5 and pix was about 2 months after I got him. He is intact and did not completely muscle up until he was about 4.

I think the stability thing is that many dogs are so narrow and having a broader stance may help within reason. Maybe it is not an angulation issue but a breadth issue - I don't know.


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## NancyJ

Decent article
http://www.workingdogs.com/ulfgolden.htm

I guess basically the concern he would have is "can the dog sustain the trot or will be be forced into a gallop" - not so much a question of stacking and looks but of endurance.


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## Sheppy

If the American Show Shepherd slope had a useful purpose, it would have appeared in dogs that have to work for a living. 

Check out the dogs in the German HGH herding championships. (DVD/tape from Leerburg's) These are dogs that work sheep on daily basis. If the 'flying trot' had a purpose, it would obviously appear in these dogs. 

Nope. NADA. No Way. 

What you do see, however, are dogs that when they trot, have a very energy-efficient motion. The back stays almost perfectly level with little up and down or front-to-back bob. 

You don't see that rear-end drag in military or police working dogs. 

Therefore, it exists solely to please AKC judges.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaHere's a very odd idea:
> 
> Angulation causes excessive dirtiness.


So does being a "slob". Siren is ALWAYS covered in mud after our walks in muddy weather. But THIS is why!


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## NancyJ

My best mud experience was when it was a hot summer day and we were at a construction site with nothing but red clay and bulldozers. In the middle of it was a big mud puddle. Now if you are not familiar with red mud ..........

Grim was hot, boy did he have fun. Who was I to stop a hot dog from cooling off?

I thought about the car wash on the way home but figured, hmmmmm. That was Grim's first and only real bath when we got home. Normally a dip in a pond or just drying and a good brush gets rid of the dirt. Glad I have a truck [even so had to empty out and hose out the back]


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## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDSo does being a "slob". Siren is ALWAYS covered in mud after our walks in muddy weather. But THIS is why!


Tracy that picture makes me wonder what's going to happen when Otto makes his first visit to our neighborhood beach. He was too little to go last summer - when he'd had all his shots in september, they couldn't swim there becuase it's upper bay and the algae gets too thick. Hopefully this year it won't be so nasty in the fall becuase they've put in a new overflow system to collect the extra sewerage in Providence (eww)

Ah spring, the mud season that leads into BEACH season.


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## BJDimock

The expirence I've had with severe angulation is this. By the time the dogs reach 8, their carpus joints are so low that they can hardly stand comfortably.
Their hips are probably fine, but they tend to shift all their weight to the front end, to provide better balence with everyday movements.(which isn't the extended trot)
They may look ok in the ring when they're young, but I get to council their owners with physical therapy later.


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## mjbgsd

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf...more powerful than float-y or attractive. Envision a 320 lb Green Bay Packer linebacker twirling in a pink beruffled tutu across a ballet stage. His movement is efficient, but it ain't purty.


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## Xeph

> Quote:Check out the dogs in the German HGH herding championships. (DVD/tape from Leerburg's) These are dogs that work sheep on daily basis. If the 'flying trot' had a purpose, it would obviously appear in these dogs.


Yes, and how many dogs do you see being sent to Ulf for the HGH? Doesn't mean the trot doesn't have a purpose....certainly can't be evaluated long term if no one sends Ulf the dogs, or works them diligently on their own sheep.


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## cliffson1

Ceph, lets stay with your logic....in Germany they have the Herding championships and there are plenty of dogs in close proximity that are extremely angulated.....should we not see a lot of these dogs participating in these championships.....after all if the extreme gait from extreme angulation is beneficial to herding as I have heard showline people say so many times....then it stands to reason there is a place and example to support this supposition. Germany has the trials and the dogs of this type....do the facts support the supposition???


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## Liesje

Here is a dog owned by Nikon's breeder. She is a 12 time HGH, and also a BSZS herding class Siegerin. Before she was sold, she was Karl Fuller's favorite dog, and he still herds daily. She's also SchH trained; I've never seen her on sheep, just doing SchH.

I'm new to this conformation/angulation thing, so maybe you guys can comment and fill me in? Where does this dog fit in?


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## Xeph

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Ceph, lets stay with your logic....in Germany they have the Herding championships and there are plenty of dogs in close proximity that are extremely angulated.....should we not see a lot of these dogs participating in these championships.....after all if the extreme gait from extreme angulation is beneficial to herding as I have heard showline people say so many times....then it stands to reason there is a place and example to support this supposition. Germany has the trials and the dogs of this type....do the facts support the supposition???


I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying and I know I don't understand what you're asking. Would you mind rephrasing for me? I'd like to answer the question properly


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## Deejays_Owner

Lies

This was his best bitch VA3 Xitta vom Kirschental SchH3/FH/HGH/IP3 Kkl 1 born : 29. May 1978.
And the one that he is most proud of, has talked many times about in different Articles.

Note: the backhand!!










My Deejay has her in his 7th (7,7 - 7) all to Uran.


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## Liesje

Nice!

By "favorite dog" I meant at the time she was purchased. Nikon's breeder goes to his house to see him and pick dogs. Nikon's dam is Kirschental and Karl helped pick the sire when she visited Germany with the dog. I believe his wife told her if it were only up to Karl, he'd never sell a dog and they would be overrun with dogs.


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## Deejays_Owner

From the "Zwinger vom Kirschental" web-site History Page.



> Quote: "Xitta" was a pure working dog with the sheep, when I presented her for the first time at the HZS, where she achieved V4 in the GHKL. At the evaluation, quote the Bundeszuchtwart, Hermman Martin: " I would have placed this dog VA, had she also had a SchH title, not just the HGH." Thereupon, I had Edzard Müller train "Xitta" through SchH3 IPO3 FH. The following year, "Xitta" achieved VA3. As much time was spent for competitions and shows, I was not able to breed "Xitta" as much as I would have liked to.
> 
> She did, however, produce outstanding progeny in each of her litters. Her first litter was out of "Argus von Aducht", which produced the HGH Sieger "Ux vom Kirschental".
> 
> Her most successful breeding was to "Uran vom Wildsteiger Land", producing the Worldsieger "*Eiko vom Kirschental*" (VA 1986-89).
> 
> This breeding was repeated twice, producing another successful litter with 5 males (Vagus, Valand, Vasall, Vido and Vopo) and 5 females (Valli, Vilma and Viva). The whole litter, some also abroad (USA, Sweden and Australia) were used for breeding with much success.


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## Liesje

I read that long ago, but always wondered about the comment:

" I would have placed this dog VA, had she also had a SchH title, not just the HGH." 

Why does the SchH title negate the VA rating?


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## Chris Wild

I think he's saying the opposite. NOT having the SchH title, but having just the HGH, negated the VA.


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## Liesje

Ah, OK. My eyes deceive me! I was confused b/c when I look her up she did have the title(s).


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## 24kgsd

For judging purposes the HGH title is equal to a SChH title but some judges do not know this, forget it, or discount it. 

My beautiful Faye vom Kirschental was indeed one of Karl's favorites. I think it is safe to assume that after breeding 55 plus years that you will have many "favorites." 

Faye's dam, Jassie vom Kirschental, was another favorite of Karl's. They both go back to Xitta v Kirschental through the mother line.


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## Deejays_Owner

> Originally Posted By: GSDRuleFor judging purposes the HGH title is equal to a SChH title but some judges do not know this, forget it, or discount it.


Mr. Herman Martin was the current president of the SV at the time.
It sounds like it was not equal for a VA (Excellent Select) at the World Sieger show.


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## cliffson1

Ceph, Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back....I understood your point to be that not many dogs with the show trot were being sent to ULF so that may be the reason for not seeing these dogs participating in HGH. My point is that in Germany they have many HGH trials and 70% of the German dogs are from Hochlines so the premise would be that with the type of angulation that produces that more extreme trot, then the HGH trials should be dominated with these type of dogs because their gait is so good for herding.
Actually, other than Karl Fuller and Kirschental, if you go to many HGH trials and especially the regional events you will not find that this type of dog is predominate. I think you will find dogs with moderate size and angles that are fast and agile. I am saying that the premise that angulation that wins in either showring (American or German), has fostered a premise that this trot is beneficial to the herding vocation, and I think that the real shepherds and herding trial do not bear this out. Actually, the dogs that excell in Herding would not get a second look in a showring....so I think it is disingenious to advocate that extreme trot body structure is beneficial to herding when the facts don't support this....and after all if this extreme trot is NOT utilized by Herding people than what was it created for, and sold to the public as being correct for a working dog?


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## Deejays_Owner

cliftonanderson

Here is an Article from *Ulf Kintzel *----> Herding Dogs & the Golden Middle 

* From the Structure section.

He said that Sheep Herders in Germany don't use dogs with angulation.
They don't think it is necessary, and from his own experience less angulated dog trot pretty well.
Also goes on to say that dogs that have too much anglation often do have a problem to
run fast enough when sheep bolt, & problems jumping high livestock fences.
*


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## Xeph

> Quote:My point is that in Germany they have many HGH trials and 70% of the German dogs are from Hochlines so the premise would be that with the type of angulation that produces that more extreme trot, then the HGH trials should be dominated with these type of dogs because their gait is so good for herding.


Then for the most part we agree...what I take issue with is that I'm talking about dogs in AMERICA being sent to Ulf...he's the only person in America that does the HGH. And while Germany has been breeding dogs that are angulated in the REAR like the Americans, they don't move the same due to having no front.

There are American dogs lacking in front too, but not near the extent that the West German dogs do.

I appreciated a well but not over angulated dog. Justin, in stack, can be extreme for me, but he's an overall efficient mover, and I wish I could put him on Sheep...or put Strauss on sheep for that matter.

And the more angulated type of dog could dominate just due to sheer numbers, but the owners make excuses for their dogs instead of sending them to work, some preferring to buy a schutzhund title because #1 they know they can't buy an HGH, and #2, even though it is supposed to be equal to a schutzhund title, the judges tend not to see it that way. They don't want to risk their dog going V instead of VA because the dog has an HGH and not a SchH III


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## Liesje

What does it mean to have "no front"? Sorry, I need like a manual on the GSD conformation buzz words!


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## Xeph

A dog that has "no front" is not properly angulated in the shoulder, has a steep/short upper arm, and/or has little angulation in the pasterns.

A dog can have all of these things or just a couple of these things. Mostly when somebody refers to a dog having "no front" they are talking about the upper arm and shoulder angles.

This dog has no front:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/73003.html

This dog either
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/74442.html

This dog just has nothing in general x.x:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/74430.html

I really DIDN'T want to use Justin for this, but I couldn't find a dog in the PDB off hand WITH a good front:

















Compare Justin's shoulder to Strauss, who is very straight and lacking in upper arm:


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## cliffson1

Brian, thanks for the info from Ulf, must say I already knew this but it is good to hear it confirmed from somebody with a pedigree like Ulf.
Jackie, the only thing we disagree on is that the extreme angulated dogs could dominate but for the reasons you have given....a major reason you don't see more of these dogs on sheep is because it takes a dog with strong temperament to herd sheep. That's why I always rolled my eyes in my head when I heard American Show breeders trying to spin the extreme angulation makes the better herders. The temperament of these dogs, would make most of these dogs, too weak to control a large enough flock to get an HGH. So, I knew they were talking out their dreams and not something proven, just as the equation of extreme trotting being good for herding abilities.....there's no proof, no significant examples, and shows the lack of knowledge of the breeders trying to justify these dogs as being correct. I know you realize this Jackie, but how is it that a Judge can buy into this fairy tale logic???


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## Xeph

> Quote: That's why I always rolled my eyes in my head when I heard American Show breeders trying to spin the extreme angulation makes the better herders. The temperament of these dogs, would make most of these dogs, too weak to control a large enough flock to get an HGH.


I concur 



> Quote: I know you realize this Jackie, but how is it that a Judge can buy into this fairy tale logic???


The same way they can place a hock walker/gaiter  They go kennel blind just like any breeder can/does.


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## Brightelf

Hey, can we make part of this a "For Dummies" kinda thread?







Can somebody draw on an image, to show us where the angle in the front is too shallow or steep? I am having trouble seeing this in dogs.







Or, am I mebbe jus' the dumbest one here, not seeing the angles?


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## DianaM

This is a GREAT thread. Can we mail several hundred copies to the AKC and the GSDCA?









Brian, what are you referring to when you say the "backhand?"


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## Xeph

The Hindquarter. I hate it when it's called the backhand...it's not a hand xD

It just annoys me, lol. 

By the way, this isn't a commentary on Brian, just in general. I only hear the German side refer to it as the backhand. The Americans refer to it as the hindquarter.


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## DianaM

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In fact, I think that goes into sense-debt. Perhaps there was something lost in that translation. I'll keep "hindquarter" as well. Thank you, Jackie.


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## Wolfenstein

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfHey, can we make part of this a "For Dummies" kinda thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can somebody draw on an image, to show us where the angle in the front is too shallow or steep? I am having trouble seeing this in dogs.


I would absolutely LOVE something like this! I've been trying to study up on GSDs recently, and although I know in general I like less slope than your average American show dog, it would be wonderful to see some guides to learn about terminology so I know WHY I have the opinions I do, and to help me decide how I would personally see fit to comply with the breed standard.







I know what I like, especially when I see a dog in movement, but I have absolutely no working knowledge to back up my claims!


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfHey, can we make part of this a "For Dummies" kinda thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can somebody draw on an image, to show us where the angle in the front is too shallow or steep? I am having trouble seeing this in dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Or, am I mebbe jus' the dumbest one here, not seeing the angles?


Well not exactly a "For Dummies" but I stickied it.


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## Briska

Have a look at this. Just found it... does that look normal????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5R--YgX0cQ


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## Chris Wild

Not sure what the morphing horse video is trying to prove? Does the severe angulation look normal, no. But the title of the video seems to be indicating it causes HD, which it does not. The two are completely unrelated. So if that is the point of the video, whoemever created it is seriously spreading myth and misinformation.


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## SunCzarina

That's not right. 

While I find it funny, it is very useful in illustrating what happens with the chest and hind legs.


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## Briska

Well I'm sorry, I didn't go for the title just for the illustration. Of course does the severe angulation not necessary cause HD otherwise all the working dog lines over here in germany with more or less straight backs would not have any problems with HD. Well they definately DO have the same problem. All I wanted to show here was how 'not normal' that angulation looks!


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## Wolfenstein

I don't think it's very fair to use a HORSE for a comparison. I mean, I don't like _extreme_ angulation, but it's there for a reason to a degree. A horse just runs and is structured completely different, a working dog's stances and postures lend itself naturally to different structure. Think about a wolf out hunting, WAY different than a horse! It's not just about getting the longest gait possible, it's about the whole package, maneuverability, speed, and efficiency.


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## FORRUGER

I seldom post on threads other than the rescue board, but couldn't help but add my five cents worth after looking at that dumb morphing horse video. It looked like it changed from a normal looking flat shod horse into looking like a padded Tennessee Walking Horse. What on earth does it have to do with a german shepherd I dont know either>


Something is to be said about diversifying and owning both American showline AND german line gsds. You can see the beauty and strengths in both types of conformations, temperments and abilities. There's going to be extremes in conformation in both lines... not all dogs are born to be good athletes irregardless of whether they have the conformation to be one or not. On the other hand, some of the Am showline dogs that are 'down in the hocks' and quite angulated ARE actually very athletic and sound. I'm proud to say I own one and he's a wonderful athletic dog and breath taking to watch gait. I love my german girl too and she's an awesome dog in her capabilities...enough said... continue . . .


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## Deejays_Owner

A few years ago My Daughter was show training our Highline male in a park.
This guy comes up to me, telling me about his dog, how the Breeder (AM-Line)
wants him back as he is just breath taking. And maybe they can come by and the
dogs could play one day. The guy comes by the next day, gets his dog out it's going
nuts jumping barking pulling him across the field. I had Deejay by my-side in a down,
tell the guy to just unhook him. It charges over, I give Deejay the OK, and they started
to play. Deejay was running it's ass off, he had to jump over it a few times as it had
a hard time turning. After 5 min's of running this dog was beat, could not handle Deejay pushing him.
It turned on Deejay and tried to bite him, big mistake Deejay pinned him and put the fear of God on him.
I had to pull Deejay off of him, that was the last time we have seen that dog around.
Bet it's gone Champion by now!!


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## Xeph

> Quote:After 5 min's of running this dog was beat


Overangulation can do that to a dog...so can being out of condition.



> Quote:could not handle Deejay pushing him.


Sounds like pretty rude behavior to me on the part of Deejay. The other dog said "That's enough". It shouldn't be a mistake for the other dog to tell him "Get out of my face, I don't play that way!"


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## FORRUGER

Sounds a little risky to me. . . turning two unfamiliar male dogs loose together. I doubt the Am line dog went on to finish his title as if the owner had any serious intentions of showing him he wouldn't be turning him loose with strange dogs and taking a chance on getting him tore up in a fight! 

But anyways, not all gsds are high energy, high drive, and have a desire or the conditioning to run wide open all day. Actually the lower energy, lower drives of many of the Am lines make them ideal family/companion dogs especially for the first time gsd owner. And I'd like to say that over the past 3 or 4 years that I've been doing rescue I have only seen two obvious Am showline type out of shelters. So that says something to me about the Am showline breeders.


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## Xeph

Show line type doesn't mean show line dogs. I know of a few GSDs that are working lines but could pass for show.

I'm not saying a breeder didn't abandon these dogs, however, there are so many scenarios....


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## mjbgsd

> Quote:Actually the lower energy, lower drives of many of the Am lines make them ideal family/companion dogs especially for the first time gsd owner...


If they can't handle a GSD with drive, they should go to Goldens or a lab. Shepherds aren't suppose to be couch potatoes, nor where they originally bred to be or have lower drive. Most Am show breeders (not all) tend to forget temperament or breed for lower drives as they don't really need any of that in the ring. What's the point of that...?? A GSD is a working dog. If people can't handle a working dog, get another breed for a first time dog. Yes, some working lines have lower drive but most breeders aren't purposfully breeding for that. 


That video was very odd...


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## scannergirl

> Originally Posted By: mjbgsd
> 
> If they can't handle a GSD with drive, they should go to Goldens or a lab. Shepherds aren't suppose to be couch potatoes, nor where they originally bred to be or have lower drive. Most Am show breeders (not all) tend to forget temperament or breed for lower drives as they don't really need any of that in the ring. What's the point of that...?? A GSD is a working dog. If people can't handle a working dog, get another breed for a first time dog. Yes, some working lines have lower drive but most breeders aren't purposfully breeding for that.


Me in my newness but always trying to learn more mind could not agree with you more. Why move away from the breed standard to suit people who really should own another breed?
I do NOT like the look of angulation. My brother was here and he was amazed with Lucy's athleticism. She's a great jumper and he was wow'd a few times as she lept in the air to catch a tennis ball. His experience had been with BYB Am or mixed lines- 
She's a workin' girl indeed.


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## RavenSophi

Found this website - might be of interest as it is illustrated. Not specifically angulation but breed standard in general. 

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/05_The_Hindquarters/The_Hindquarters.html

Blake is a Figure 19! Anyone know how we can fix it? Specific exercises?


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## Wolfenstein

^^^That article is amazing, thank you for posting it!! It's exactly what I was looking for!











> Originally Posted By: mjbgsd
> If they can't handle a GSD with drive, they should go to Goldens or a lab. Shepherds aren't suppose to be couch potatoes, nor where they originally bred to be or have lower drive. Most Am show breeders (not all) tend to forget temperament or breed for lower drives as they don't really need any of that in the ring. What's the point of that...?? A GSD is a working dog. If people can't handle a working dog, get another breed for a first time dog. Yes, some working lines have lower drive but most breeders aren't purposfully breeding for that.


This is EXACTLY how I feel! It's funny, I started working as a dog groomer a few years ago, and it helped fuel my love of dogs. I never liked small dogs much, but after working there I started appreciating that they could be cute. However, the more I researched and learned about dogs and function and good breeding, the more I decided that small dogs just shouldn't exist! I love that dogs have a job to do, regardless of what that job is, and I love that it can be tested and proven before a dog is bred. For GSDs, this means some sort of field work, and therefor breeding for drive. I personally know I wouldn't be able to handle a very high drive dog, but there's always going to be pet quality dogs that don't have as much drive in litters out there, so one day I know I'll find the perfect companion. If someone wants a dog that isn't going to need to have daily exercise and mental stimulation, they should get a dog with lower drive, like you said. Labs and Goldens are bred for hunting and retrieving work, but even though they still require exercise, it isn't nearly the same level, and much easier for your "average" dog owner.

I guess the whole point of my rambling, is why bother breeding a _working_ dog with the sole purpose of looks, when the structure you're striving for is supposed to aid in working??


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## cliffson1

It is selfish, selfish, selfish, and I say one more time selfish to breed a purebred dog for what "YOU" what, if it is destroying the intent and creation of the dog's legacy as a "purebred" bred. So very sad!!!


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: RavenSophiFound this website - might be of interest as it is illustrated. Not specifically angulation but breed standard in general.
> 
> http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/05_The_Hindquarters/The_Hindquarters.html
> 
> Blake is a Figure 19! Anyone know how we can fix it? Specific exercises?


There is no way to "fix" structure. There are schools of thought that cow hocks actually are beneficial for a dog to be agile and quick turns.


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## FORRUGER

Nice in theory to say that if someone can't handle a high drive working dog they shouldn't buy a gsd, but unfortunately it happens every day. And every day these dogs end up in the shelters (or worse) because some bozo doesn't know how to handle/train one because of their high energy and strong drives. Having been involved with rescue for a number of years opened my eyes to the ignorance of people who go out and buy gsds with not a clue what to expect or what they're getting into. For those of us who train our dogs for whatever sport we're involved in, we have a choice to buy the type best suited to our needs. I personally love high energy high drive shepherds to train, but do you think for a minute this is the type I recommend a first time owner to go out and buy? Heck no! I'm also very proud of my Am showline boy and think he's a great representation of the breed. I do agree dogs shouldn't be bred to look crippled or deformed or bad traits and poor temperments passed on, but I think there is a need for both types. Just too much 'dog bashing' between the Am showlines vs the German lines. I doubt it will ever change, but I've personally come to a happy medium by owning both types.


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## Amaruq

The breed had an intention when it was created and that was to be a working dog. If any buyer cannot meet the BASIC needs of a working dog (any breed) than they should look elsewhere. Breeders should be striving to maintain the working ability (in any working dog) not water it down so more people can own a reasonable facsimile of a WORKING dog. If they want a lazy couch potato try a different breed. I am not saying ALL GSD should be owned by people that will work them in one way or another but NO working breed (any breed) should be bred simply to produce pets for people who want the look but are simply not cut out to own such a dog.


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## Andaka

> Quote: I'm also very proud of my Am showline boy and think he's a great representation of the breed. I do agree dogs shouldn't be bred to look crippled or deformed or bad traits and poor temperments passed on, but I think there is a need for both types. Just too much 'dog bashing' between the Am showlines vs the German lines.


Ditto!!


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## cliffson1

If your American showline dogs possesses the basic physical and mental characteristics that are in the standard which makes for a good working dog as the standard states....then most people aren't bashing your dog at all. But if a large percentage of a certain line do not possess these traits, but are in fact extremely angulated, shy, walk on hocks, would run from a loud noise,etc, then what should true lovers of this breed do, act like they don't exist and accept this phenomenon because a minority of the line does have solid traits. With this mentality how will the breed maintain its place in the working world for which it was created? If the majority of American showlines are sound and the unsound ones are the exception then I am not a basher of the line. But I went to Boardwalk K C show THIS year and if I told you what I saw you would think I was bashing....so I guess I could lie and say that the dogs I saw that Judges were supposedly judging by the standard were herding/working dogs....buttttt....I really think that the bashers are not as important as the breeders and Judges who continue to accept representatives that make a mockery of the standard and thus the breed!


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## Andaka

And the Working line breeders who are so intent on high protection scores that they breed nervy dogs unsuitable for family life or the High line breeders with the roached backs and short upper arms aren't detrimental to the breed?

The point is that there are extremes in all of the lines and plenty of fault to go around.


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## cliffson1

What is the correlation between high protection scores and nervy dog???????How is a showline line dog with roached back detrimental to the breed if the dog is a good family dog or is a good herding dog or is a good police dog? 
You obviously don't have a clue about Sch and you also project a values system of "detrimental" as being something not desirable in the American Show Ring. The German Shepherd was not made to be correct for the American show ring....to the contrary the GS was made to be a working dog and quite frankly the one place you most consistently see GS that can't work is the ASR. Surely a workingline dog that is not suitable for family in your eyes but is an excellent police service dog or military dog is not "detrimental" to the breed. Certainly a German showline dog that is roached but is a certified SAR or FEMA dog or family dog is not detrimental to the breed. How about a dog that when you take it off its property has that "worried look" and tail tucked underneath it, and afraid of loud sounds, that to me is detrimental to the breed. I agree there can be many degrees of German Shepherd as long as the dog is capable of functionality. But the GS that are bred that are incapable of functioning in a capacity to serve man is "truly" the type of GS that is detrimental...JMO


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## NancyJ

Some comments

There was a statement that labs and goldens did not have as high drive. Well, labs are also bred for work and pet/show and while I have toyed with the idea of having a field lab for cadaver work, a working line GSD is about the limit of hyper that I can live with. I would not want one of these labs in my house. [but they can be awesome dogs] -

Not seeing many of either showline type persisting in SAR. See more Ambred BYB types than German Show or American Show but see a LOT of sable GSDs which are presumably largely eastern european.


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## Ocean

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Ceph, Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back....I understood your point to be that not many dogs with the show trot were being sent to ULF so that may be the reason for not seeing these dogs participating in HGH. My point is that in Germany they have many HGH trials and 70% of the German dogs are from Hochlines so the premise would be that with the type of angulation that produces that more extreme trot, then the HGH trials should be dominated with these type of dogs because their gait is so good for herding.
> Actually, other than Karl Fuller and Kirschental, if you go to many HGH trials and especially the regional events you will not find that this type of dog is predominate. I think you will find dogs with moderate size and angles that are fast and agile. I am saying that the premise that angulation that wins in either showring (American or German), has fostered a premise that this trot is beneficial to the herding vocation, and I think that the real shepherds and herding trial do not bear this out. Actually, the dogs that excell in Herding would not get a second look in a showring....so I think it is disingenious to advocate that extreme trot body structure is beneficial to herding when the facts don't support this....and after all if this extreme trot is NOT utilized by Herding people than what was it created for, and sold to the public as being correct for a working dog?


to support Clinton's argument with pictures - pics of recent winners of the SV national HGH herding championship in Germany - check out the angulation of these REAL herding GSDs:
http://www.blh2008.de/historie.htm

if a picture is worth a thousand words - a video is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLxsTnzvAc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ifJDNFLklo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b45WYL_2Xb8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLOvOfAw4rM&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHeb28hQzAU&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osC7QXMj9Y4&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0q0FLoEsrs&feature=channel_page

You can see in the videos that the dogs actually do more galloping than trotting. Like doing the running of the blind search in the protection phase of SchH but 10X over if not more.

One of the inherent fallacies of the show ring trot as being a working gait is obvious in these videos. Watch how fast the dogs are moving. Obviously, too fast for any human being to keep up with them. In the show ring, a human handler is limiting the dog's speed, therefore any type of gait the dog is able to show in the show ring is "unnatural" and not a working gait. It's like watching a 200 mph race car crawling at 20 mph and concluding that its moving at its working speed. One can actually do GSD style herding of 100 sheep by humans alone, without a single dog, but you would need 12 humans to do the same work of one good herding GSD. Back to the need for a herding dog in the first place, so you don't need 12 humans to do the work.
What to do with the 11 extra humans? - build villages, farm crops, build temples, create more humans, create art, decree laws, start governments, build armies - the very history of civilization.


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## Ocean

Watch the first 45 seconds of this BSP 2008 dog, doing the blind search in protection and how similar its gait is to the dogs doing HGH herding. Conclusion: the blind search is a better indicator of correct working structure for a herding dog than the show ring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh29Zu6qkYc


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## Samba

People will always be changing dogs to meet their needs. That is how it has been for eons. This very activity lead to the creation of type and dogs that breed true,iow,purebred dogs.
Small dogs were bred for very real work. They attracted the fleas from the owner as they sat on their laps. They were carried in muffs to warm the hands. Some were bred to rat in small holes. Many served to alert to danger. The emotional and health advantages of owning a dog have been so well proven that perhaps all well-loved dogs are "working" at home.

In a culture where the pastoral lifestyle is not prevasive and much agrarian activity is mechanized, it is more difficult for the working dog to remain in demand. I am saddened by it because we may lose the history of these dog's development due to lack of demand. Max saw it coming and advocated his herding dog as useful in other service endeavors. 

Should the different varieties of GSD adopt different names? When does the split consistute seperate breeds? Max said it is not GSD breeding when it is no longer bred for work. Perhaps at that point a "different" breed is being bred. Is there room for everyone? The split probably isn't going to go away.

I wouldn't trade my am showline shepherd for a lab or a golden. I have all of those breeds here around me today, and in my mind, not a substitute. I also have a highline GSD on the sofa by me and the east/west working dogs are running in the yard. God bless them all, they are none troubled with such questions, arguments and conundrums. I think I'll go out for a romp in the spring grass myself!


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## Effie325

For the record, Golden Retrievers and Labradors are NOT couch potatoes either, and the majority of them, of any breeding, are not a good first time dog for a lazy person who doesn't want to do two or three hours a day of exercising with his dog. 

I also do agree that if you don't want a working, active sporting or herding dog, then don't get one of these breeds. When I want a lazy dog that sleeps all day and only needs a few sprints a week, I get a Whippet or a Greyhound. There's plenty of lazy sofa hounds in need of homes for people who can't cope with a shedding, high drive, always-ready-to-work retriever or Shepherd.

Even show bred Labs and Goldens need a lot more exercise than a Greyhound or a Pug, and that's as it should be. 

The majority of show folks I know in ALL breeds sit ringside and go crazy over a dog they like because "look at that movement!" and "Man, his type is to die for!!!" and working never enters the discussion. That's okay with me- they're playing their game, and they're not stopping me from playing mine. That's what they're breeding for- that's what the market is for. 

Also, it doesn't help that even I, who have never set foot in a GSD conformation ring, could tell you who will win at a given show simply by looking at the handlers without even glancing at the dogs. Can we not admit this is part of the problem?

We all pay into and support and own whatever type of dog fits our need, and the game we enjoy playing. Opinions are fine, but at the end of the day I prefer live and let live. It would make me very sad to see the working GSD (or Golden, or Labrador) disappear to be certain, but it won't happen unless the only demand is for pretty movers and extreme type. 

The working dogs (which I prefer, by the way, in almost all breeds) are still going strong. There is an ample market for them, too.

I guess I'm saying: breed for whatever you want- but be honest. Admit it







And be responsible for your dogs. That's all I ask.


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## RubyTuesday

> Quote:When I want a lazy dog that sleeps all day and only needs a few sprints a week, I get a Whippet or a Greyhound.


Although these guys are willing to laze around they prefer a more active lifestyle & benefit hugely from a few sprints a day versus each week. This is equally true of Irish Wolfhounds & Scottish Deerhounds. Mature sighthounds usually settle well in the house, but they still need adequate daily exercise, mental & physical, to truly thrive. They tolerate a lack of activity better than many breeds, but most of them neither thrive nor prefer a sedentary lifestyle.

Healthy dogs almost universally prefer activity & exercise. Notable exceptions to this are extremely dwarfed or brachycephalic breeds, largely b/c their deformities make strenuous activity difficult, even hazardous. I've gotta admit, I'm squeamish about these guys. It just seems profoundly wrong to breed dogs that can barely breathe or run & are intolerant of both heat & cold.

Anyone who can't provide a medium to large dog ample exercise should consider one of the toy breeds, which are active but small enough to exercise inside a house, or even an apartment. (Contrary to some disparaging notions, they're most emphatically 'real dogs'...loyal, loving & clever with enormous heart & character)


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## ldw6559

I agree with much of what has been said here but the GSD was never meant to be couch lazy and a dog for the indoors unless properly exercised. I love mine to death but if not execised properly he is a real bear. Mine is currently a huge GSD with a fairly straight back and legs that go all the way to the ground. He fears nothing and is somewhat hard to control but he is what the breed is all about. If you don't want a dog that will take you to the end of your nerves then stay away from this breed as they are all dog and will challenge you all the way. I have waited for 40 years for a companion pet that would be all I wanted it to be and after many dogs I have found one capable of being just that. He is not show dog worthy and is just a pet but can go all day in the woods and has actually had some action that may have kept me from harm already! I will never own another breed of dog as this one fits my life style so well but that is just for me. My dog is bigger, faster and more capable than any show line dog I have seen so when you are ready to purchase your puppy please think about what you want it for.


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## thedogbreedexpert

The reason why there is so much stress about angulation is that the German Shepherd dog originated as a herding dog. Herding dogs must have high endurance, agility and strength, and must be able to trot on and off for considerable periods of time. Dogs with excesive angulation are not able to perform in such a way. 

As far as I know the AKC standard doesn't say so, but the Verein fur Deutsche Schaferhunde, which is the German Shepherd dog club in Germany and the governing body that controls the German Shepherd dog's breeding, did establish the German Shepherd dog breed standard in 1899, which describes amongst other things, the GSD’s physical structure and I'm pretty sure it doesn't include excesive angulation.

What happened was that although up to World War II, German Shepherds in America were identical to the ones in Germany, after the war they each went their own way. This was due to the animosity between the two countries. In America, there was excessive inbreeding and line breeding and american German Shepherds started showing characteristics of their own. One of them being much more angulated hindquarters.

If you would like to learn more about it, I have two pretty long articles on my website which explain this in more detail.


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## cliffson1

I really beleive the divergence in type of GS in Europe and the US began in the late sixties. This really started with the popularity of Lance of Franjo, and the subsequent excessive and continued line/inbreeding on him and his progeny. Prior to this period there were many great kennels in America that produced dogs with good structure and great working ability.


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## Xeph

For anybody that may be interested, Jimmy Moses was interviewed for an article in the Review this month that I believe is actually very good and worth the read.

Interview with James (Jim) Moses in the June 2010 Review


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## cliffson1

I was into American show dogs in early 70's, when Jimmy, Gary Stacer, Lamar Kuhns, Georgie Berstler, Mary Roberts, and many more were great handlers. I read Jimmy's article with interest. I do agree with him that many in the parent club need to be educated, and I also think that Judges have to have a knowledge base of structure, history, and work.JMO


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## Liesje

cliffson1 said:


> I also think that Judges have to have a knowledge base of structure, history, and work.JMO


Do you think that they do? I stopped showing in AKC conformation (and really anything AKC) after the last show I entered, the judge-in-training openly admitted that she was not aware there were different types of GSDs (west German show line, American line, working line). This was a show where the judges were not yet "certified" or whatever, but in training to become AKC judges. In each class she put up an American line dog, then in my dog's class there were only German show lines and she was obviously confused about what to do. Afterward she approached us and asked about our dogs and why they looked "different". She admitted she wasn't even sure how to judge them. And these were show line dogs, I wouldn't be surprised if she's never even seen a working line dog or knows they exist. I guess that experience showed me that the AKC is not training their judges on the history or the work of the breed or even the basic differences in type. I pay a lot to enter shows and events and usually have to travel so I'll take my money and efforts elsewhere from now on.


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## doggiedad

what are you saying?



crackem said:


> yeah, because the working dogs i've seen have so much trouble covering lots of ground and going all day.
> 
> I haven't seen too many limitations in working dogs concerning their "angulation" as far as covering ground.


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## Samba

I was at our club show this month. The judges asked me what my breed was. When I said German Shepherds, there was much talk of how difficult it is find a "good one". 

One time, when asked, I said that I was really loving all that my Catahoula is. A hush fell. The Catahoula people will resist AKC recognition with all they have. 

Jimmy and Georgie are still making their way around the ring as handlers these days! I often wonder what people who have seen the decades of change think about it all. 

The splits and differences in the breed are significant enough that I am not surprised a provisional judge could be stumped by what different "varieties" of our dogs might bring to the ring. Perhaps we should have "variety" classes!


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## gagsd

I had a judge at an AKC show ask me what my dark sable GSD puppy was..... thought he was a Dutchie!!


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## cliffson1

How can you be a Judge of the breed but not be knowledgable about History or Work. These observations people are making about certain judges knowledge base outside the ring is nothing new in American show circuit. One thing I can say about every SV Judge I have met is that they know the breed and they also know how to train the breed in obedience/tracking/protection. They usually have knowledge of the history of the breed. 
Some of the opinions and misbeliefs that I used to hear from AKC conformation judges was actually appalling. Things like Sch dogs are unsafe and will bite indiscriminately. I mean folks in the country of origin where EVERY GS HAS to have a Sch title to even be bred, if these statements were true you would read about dogbites in Germany 50 times a day. But for a breed JUDGE in America to make these kind of statements is to me the height of ignorance. How could I value an assessment made from a person with this type of limited knowledge of the BREED?????


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## onyx'girl

That is why AKC opinion isn't very highly esteemed, IMO. 
If I were to show conformation, UKC would be my venue of choice.


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## Jessiewessie99

I never understood shows and stuff, all I know is they prance around a ring, because thats all I have seen.lol.

Have GSDs from Working lines ever ended up in show and do really good?


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## gagsd

In general, no, they do not do well. I show my puppies at AKC shows and we are always last.
OK, once or twice we placed above another dog, but mostly a working line dog will not do well in the AKC ring.


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## codmaster

gagsd said:


> I had a judge at an AKC show ask me what my dark sable GSD puppy was..... thought he was a Dutchie!!


 
Was it a GSD speciality show or an all breed show? Makes a very big difference.

I once entered out 9-12 month old puppy in an all breed and had the handler inform us after the class that the judge was afraid of GSD's in general!


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## codmaster

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I never understood shows and stuff, all I know is they prance around a ring, because thats all I have seen.lol.Have GSDs from Working lines ever ended up in show and do really good?


You should read/study the GSD standard when you get a chance and then you would have a better idea of what the judges are looking for in the ring.


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## codmaster

gagsd said:


> In general, no, they do not do well. I show my puppies at AKC shows and we are always last.
> OK, once or twice we placed above another dog, but mostly a working line dog will not do well in the AKC ring.


Many working lines dogs do not conform very well to the standard and to what the judges are looking for. Remember that the breed ring does not allow the working line dogs to show off their increased trainability and their mind which are their biggest assets.


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## Jessiewessie99

codmaster said:


> You should read/study the GSD standard when you get a chance and then you would have a better idea of what the judges are looking for in the ring.


Umm...no. I am not interested in showing. I was just asking because I have heard of showline GSDs doing what working line GSDs do.


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## cliffson1

How about this? Many AKC judges don't know or put up dogs that don't conform to the standard. A dog true to the standard will never win in the AKC ring and hasn't for many years. There are no extremes in the STANDARD, so where does the extremes come from in the ring. Extreme sidegait is needed for the dog to herd all day. Another misbelief of many AKC judges to justify putting this type of dog up. Yet if you go into the Bavarian mountains and see real herding GS working...they look nothing like these extreme sidegaiters. So who created this, and more importantly for what use???? Talk to people who breed and show and judge these dogs and you will get some creative answers but none based in reality because in reality these type dogs are ONLY good for the showring and donot work vocationally to any extent. I'm not hating, but merely stating reality.


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## codmaster

Jessiewessie99 said:


> ........... I was just asking because I have heard of showline GSDs doing what working line GSDs do.


 
Huh?


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> How about this? Many AKC judges don't know or put up dogs that don't conform to the standard. A dog true to the standard will never win in the AKC ring and hasn't for many years. There are no extremes in the STANDARD, so where does the extremes come from in the ring. Extreme sidegait is needed for the dog to herd all day. Another misbelief of many AKC judges to justify putting this type of dog up. Yet if you go into the Bavarian mountains and see real herding GS working...they look nothing like these extreme sidegaiters. So who created this, and more importantly for what use???? Talk to people who breed and show and judge these dogs and you will get some creative answers but none based in reality because in reality these type dogs are ONLY good for the showring and donot work vocationally to any extent. I'm not hating, but merely stating reality.


If you are that knowledgable about the GSD and the standard and feel that strongly about it, why don't you judge in the ring and help to improve the breed? Or maybe you are a licensed GSD judge already? You certainly seem to have a lot of strong opinion.

I guess that the only place GSD's do real herding work is in the Bavarian mountains? Do these dogs look like the dogs in the US that are being SchH titled as a badge of breeding worthiness?

*"Extreme sidegait is needed for the dog to herd all day."* -- Interesting statment for one who I thought was against the extreme sidegait of many of the American showlines.

*"There are no extremes in the STANDARD"* - What exactly do you mean by this statment?

Would you agree that we want a GSD that is good in all aspects of the dog - i.e. physical as well as mental and health?


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## katieliz

what an interesting thread and a really interesting interview with jimmy.


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## Liesje

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I never understood shows and stuff, all I know is they prance around a ring, because thats all I have seen.lol.
> 
> Have GSDs from Working lines ever ended up in show and do really good?


Yes!! The last show I was in, a working line male (who was in his FIRST show) won the breed against seasoned German and American show lines. I'd never seen that before, in fact in a show I've been in or attended I've never seen a dog NOT from the champion or grand champion class win the breed, least of all a young working line male. It sucked losing to him b/c all we needed was one more win at the Best Male level to champion but I was thrilled to lose to that dog and see him win the breed. 

We also frequently show against a very nice young woman who has working line GSDs. She has an amazing male that has a gazillion titles and is a grand champion. I've seen him win the breed more than once.

My working line female is a champion, spayed about halfway to reaching her grand champion, and I show her in the altered class when available.

Nikon has beaten American show line dogs in the AKC and UKC ring.

I've seen working lines do well in ALL venues I show in and it's a same more aren't presented.


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## Liesje

codmaster said:


> I once entered out 9-12 month old puppy in an all breed and had the handler inform us after the class that the judge was afraid of GSD's in general!


I've had this before too. In WDA the judge himself inspects the bite very closely, even touching the inside of the mouth and teeth. In UKC I've had judges who have me show the bite and won't come within 5 feet of the dog's mouth. I guess it's their prerogative, my dog does not have an absolutely perfect bite but they will never see it if they don't LOOK.


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## Samba

After talking with some of the all-breed judges this past weekend. I think that a moderate and correct dog could do well under many of them. They were remarking that it is often hard to find a good one in the shepherd ring. 

The Americans and Canadians wrote their own standards. They are not members of the FCI and do not use the standard that much of the world does. 

We see even among the Europeans very different looking dogs in separate venues even though they operate under the same standard. Obviously, the standard allows for wide variation in type. Many working line dogs meet the standard and receive an acceptable show rating. Aren't they shown and koerklassed?

I was at a show recently and two ladies were a bit agog on the sideline watching. I could tell by the expression on their face...well. They did approach me as to why the dogs looked the way they did. I explained that the dogs were bred for competition in this ring. They looked even more agog as I think they realized that I had shot them a straight answer. We have niche breeding, surely. I even hear people speaking of all-breed dogs versus specialty dogs within the AKC venues. Again, wide variety under the same standard.


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## cliffson1

Codmaster, when I made the comment about "extreme sidegaiting dogs can herd all day", I was using sarcasm. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding because I forget sometimes that people can't hear my thoughts. SO....You are Right about my feelings from past on American sidegait and its usefulness and I STILL maintain that point. As for me becoming a judge and strongly opininionated about the breed, (insert here that I am chuckling), most of my opinions are supported by historical and current development of the breed. Can you tell me where you see extensive use of these extreme sidegaiting dogs being used to work. I well could be missing something. I have owned and showed dogs in the American showring in early seventies, before I left because I couldn't stand to hear the excuses made for the extreme temperament deficiencies and I could see the path and where it would end up.(I don't feel too bad about that call). I have shown Black and Red European dogs in the nineties, again I left because they are going down the same path of genetic bottleneck and little regard for the true strength of the breed. I have also worked the breed a little bit over the years, AKC obedience, military, police, Sch, SDA, and I currently have a 9 month female who is ready for her PT in herding though I won't handle her for this first time. Judgeship????Current SDA judge, also qualified to Judge USPCA events in Region 15 of which I am a member. Actually, those things are not as important to me as being a student of the breed and continuing to push for the total dog that was created to provide service for man.


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## Samba

I don't see advocating for the German Shepherd to be bred true to the breed's historical utility and strength of character as highly opinionated or radically biased. 

Some people have taken the dog and altered it for niche breeding in many venues. They have lost much of what defined the breed in its beginning. I don't have any trouble seeing that or admitting it. 


Unfortunately, I do not have experience with dogs from decades ago. I think the fact that so much has changed and we have such strong advocates of various niches now, that honest communication about the breed sometimes gets difficult.


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## cliffson1

Samba,
I think you make a good point about many people not being familar with dogs of the past. I realize that the divisions are there and that they will remain. And most of my posts especially in the breeding part of the forum are positioned from a point of view of the"integrity" of the breeders. I don't expect an owner or John Q Public to have the knowledge or the integrity to know WHAT the true breed should be. So my posts really don't pertain to them in most instances. Now BREEDERS......this is a whole nother kennel of fish. To have integrity, to me, they have a responsibility to be knowledgeable about the history and bloodlines of the breed. They have a responsibility to strive to produce dogs that represent this breed standard and legacy regardless of what they LIKE. People who purposely breed litters in which they know that certain components of the rich heritage of this breed will be missing, are detrimental to the breed. Every litter will not possess all dogs that can do police work or therapy work, but the litter should possess dogs that are capable of either depending on whether the puppy is a stronger, sharper, calmer, larger, driven, type of puppy. It is so important that Judges and Breeders are grounded in knowledge, history, and application of this breed to be able to recognize and promote the continuation of the traits that the newer people or John Q Public is not aware of. If the breeders and judges are awash in misinformation, lack of knowledge, and lack of "function", how can they breed for or recognize these traits to reward. In one of the great books of the world it is said " that things will die from a lack of knowledge". Well the legacy and performance of this breed is evolving in this direction and honest folks or KNOWLEDGABLE folks understand this. Let me close by saying that from good GS breeding should come Therapy dogs as well as police dogs as well as family dogs, just depending on which pup it is. Today many people are breeding whole litters that NONE of the dogs can do anything vocationally, that continues the great tradition of this breed.....if that is a strong opinion so be it.


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## lhczth

Two excellent posts Cliff.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

While I will probably never buy a GSD I appreciate this thinking and knowledge Cliff and read these posts to do better and understand more in meeting/fostering rescue dogs.


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> Samba,
> I think you make a good point about many people not being familar with dogs of the past. I realize that the divisions are there and that they will remain. And most of my posts especially in the breeding part of the forum are positioned from a point of view of the"integrity" of the breeders. I don't expect an owner or John Q Public to have the knowledge or the integrity to know WHAT the true breed should be. So my posts really don't pertain to them in most instances. Now BREEDERS......this is a whole nother kennel of fish. To have integrity, to me, they have a responsibility to be knowledgeable about the history and bloodlines of the breed. They have a responsibility to strive to produce dogs that represent this breed standard and legacy regardless of what they LIKE. People who purposely breed litters in which they know that certain components of the rich heritage of this breed will be missing, are detrimental to the breed. Every litter will not possess all dogs that can do police work or therapy work, but the litter should possess dogs that are capable of either depending on whether the puppy is a stronger, sharper, calmer, larger, driven, type of puppy. It is so important that Judges and Breeders are grounded in knowledge, history, and application of this breed to be able to recognize and promote the continuation of the traits that the newer people or John Q Public is not aware of. If the breeders and judges are awash in misinformation, lack of knowledge, and lack of "function", how can they breed for or recognize these traits to reward. In one of the great books of the world it is said " that things will die from a lack of knowledge". Well the legacy and performance of this breed is evolving in this direction and honest folks or KNOWLEDGABLE folks understand this. Let me close by saying that from good GS breeding should come Therapy dogs as well as police dogs as well as family dogs, just depending on which pup it is. Today many people are breeding whole litters that NONE of the dogs can do anything vocationally, that continues the great tradition of this breed.....if that is a strong opinion so be it.


 
Makes a LOT of sense and well said.

Only thing that I would add is that I would not expect to get dogs suitable for every kind of GSD work from every litter as I am sure the type of dog the parents are would influence that, i.e. from very strong protectioon dogs mated I would expect to get more likely protection dogs than seeing eye or therapy dogs.


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## gagsd

codmaster said:


> Only thing that I would add is that I would not expect to get dogs suitable for every kind of GSD work from every litter as I am sure the type of dog the parents are would influence that, i.e. from very strong protectioon dogs mated I would expect to get more likely protection dogs than seeing eye or therapy dogs.


Actually, I think that IS the goal. Strong protection dogs should ALSO be strong service and therapy dogs. The sound nerve and confidence in one, is the same as needed in the other.
The more dogs from different lines that I am around, the more I am learning to understand this.


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## codmaster

gagsd said:


> Actually, I think that IS the goal. Strong protection dogs should ALSO be strong service and therapy dogs. The sound nerve and confidence in one, is the same as needed in the other.
> The more dogs from different lines that I am around, the more I am learning to understand this.


We must disagree on this one as I don't think the characteristics of a seeing eye dog would be the same that I would want in a protection dog. Sound mental capability yes! Quick to react to a "bad" guy, not so much in a therapy/seeing eye dog.

Not likely to get these two in the same dog!


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## GSD07

Codemaster, do you mean that the seeing eye dog has to stand and quietly watch how his person is being mugged?


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## Samba

I can't imagine an assistance or blind aid dog needing to be without protective instincts or abilities. Unfortunately, we see too few of these solid dogs today and it becomes something people have a hard time conceptualizing now. It used to be the norm for the breed to be able to have its full compliment of capabilities along with its character and strong nerve. 

The idea that the two need to be separate speaks to the loss of the breed as it once was.


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## codmaster

GSD07 said:


> Codemaster, do you mean that the seeing eye dog has to stand and quietly watch how his person is being mugged?


Did I say that? I would guess if you insist that many would do exactly that.

OTOH, do you want a seeing eye GSD reacting like a trained protection dog if the owner walks near a really weird looking guy who is also acting strangly?

My thought is that a seeing eye or therapy dog must have a great deal less "sharpness" or reactivity threshhold than a protection dog should have. Different degree of traits - not different traits.

How about it - would you want a therapy dog with the exact same temperament as a guard dog? that seems to be what you are saying.

My feeling is that although the same breed can do all of these things - not so for the same individual dog.

Sort of like people - think the same individual could be a star point guard and a center in a basketball game?


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## codmaster

Samba said:


> ....................
> The idea that the two need to be separate speaks to the loss of the breed as it once was.


Actually it really speaks to the very wide range of capabuilities in our breed!


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## Samba

Of course there are ranges of traits. Unfortunately now there are entire litters lacking many traits.

I can't imagine a GSD not being protective by nature to some degree. Of course, strong nerves are important in the equation and I am afraid too often they are compromised in breeding decisions for venues that do not require them to any great degree.


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## GSD07

codmaster said:


> OTOH, do you want a seeing eye GSD reacting like a trained protection dog if the owner walks near a really weird looking guy who is also acting strangly?
> 
> My thought is that a seeing eye or therapy dog must have a great deal less "sharpness" or reactivity threshhold than a protection dog should have.


 Based on your statements, you have a strange idea about the temperament and traits of a protection dog.


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## codmaster

GSD07 said:


> Based on your statements, you have a strange idea about the temperament and traits of a protection dog.


*OR, perhaps, you have a strange idea about the temperament (and job) of a seeing eye dog!*


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## cliffson1

The last outside dog I bred to (Andy Maly Vah), was a certified Therapy dog and a certified police dog. And an AKC CDX dog as well as a Sch 3 dog. I try to follow the formulas that I preach.....he had outstanding gentleness, fabulous nerve, and hard as a rock when called upon by his handler. These dogs are still out there and they should be utilized more.JMO


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> The last outside dog I bred to (Andy Maly Vah), was a certified Therapy dog and a certified police dog. And an AKC CDX dog as well as a Sch 3 dog. I try to follow the formulas that I preach.....he had outstanding gentleness, fabulous nerve, and hard as a rock when called upon by his handler. These dogs are still out there and they should be utilized more.JMO


How many dogs have you seen like this one that do all of these things?

I never said that there are NO such dogs - just that we can't expect them just like some people are both a great manager and a great individual technician as well, BUT there are VERY few such individuals. Same with dogs!

When you bred to him I assume that all his puppies were equally skilled and talented as he was, right?


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## Vandal

I think the problem is that people don't believe this is possible to have this kind of dog. It is possible and it used to be possible much more often than it is now. IMO, the possibility is less because of the beliefs and the failure to believe by the people breeding. Most do not look hard enough for these types of dogs and others would not recognize them as good dogs because they are too busy looking for "winners". That's the irony, that "the winners" are even known as such. They are only winners in one venue and that was never what a GSD was intended to be. What makes them winners also doesn't have a lot to do with being a great GSD. It is based on a fashion and on qualities that are simply not necessary for any type of work or for living as a family dog. Seeing eye dogs don't need side gait, they don't need a perfect topline but they do need temperament. If they are GSDs , the protective instinct should be "standard equipment". Should not really be a trait that is readily noticeable but in cases where there is a need for it, immediately apparent. Yes, they are still out there, I see them daily actually. 

If people bred more to the "naturals" , the ones that make you say, "now that is a German Shepherd", we wouldn't be seeing so many dogs that only resemble a GSD in that they have pointy ears.
It's true about the ignorance of the judges and it is true in the SchH venues as well as the shows etc. Many show judges simply have ignored what they know is the truth and we have seen the result of that behavior, especially in the last ten years. Once again, they are claiming things are going to change but since that has been repeated every year for the last decade or so, I won't be holding my breath. What happens there doesn't have much to do with me and the dogs I work with anyway. I have absolutely no interest in something that has been so damaging to the breed. If I decided to participate, I would be completely outnumbered by the people who possess a totally different mentality about what makes a good GSD. This is happening in SchH as well, which for me, is particularly sad. I think in another ten years, people may understand what I mean by that last sentence. Seems most have been about ten years behind what I have seen coming for the last 35. Most don't want to see it because they are winning at the moment and trying to fix anything just gets in the way of that.


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## Castlemaid

> Originally Posted by cliffson1
> The last outside dog I bred to (Andy Maly Vah), was a certified Therapy dog and a certified police dog. And an AKC CDX dog as well as a Sch 3 dog. I try to follow the formulas that I preach.....he had outstanding gentleness, fabulous nerve, and hard as a rock when called upon by his handler. These dogs are still out there and they should be utilized more.JMO





codmaster said:


> How many dogs have you seen like this one that do all of these things?
> (snip!)
> When you bred to him I assume that all his puppies were equally skilled and talented as he was, right?


I have an Andy Maly Vah son, just turned 15 months old, three weeks ago, and had no difficulty in getting his BH. He is very much as Cliff describes the father - though at this age, there is only so much hardness in him. Still very much a puppy trying to be good and not rock the boat too much - but he bites through the sleeve in protection. Our helper has commented that he can see a lot of defense in him, just below the surface, which we are just now starting to bring out. 

Yet I trust him around other dogs, in crowds of strangers, I take him to a lot of places and let him be off-leash, he is 100% reliable and has an unbelievable recall. He is sweet and gentle with the cats who seek him out and cuddle up to him. 

We did our BH tonight, the judge of course picked apart the whole performance, that is their job, but made special mention of his nice, focused, attentive heeling through the group - made for a very nice picture, he said.
The desire to please and work for the handler is there. 

He is still young and developing, but he feels to me like he is steady enough and willing enough that he could do anything: be a service dog, a therapy dog, a sport performance dog, a companion dog, a baby-sitter dog, a Schutzhund dog.


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## cliffson1

Anne, thanks for saying diplomatically what I am not as elonquent saying. I figured most people would realize that there are many dogs today that don't have this balance or else we would not be having this dialogue. I also thought most would read between the lines in that there are some dogs out there like that, but people are so intent on trophies, ribbons, and inflating their ego that they DON'T even look to find these dogs to breed to because it won't produce the dog that continues the fads created in the showring and sport field. I think I said people ought to utilize them more SO that the breed could get on track and they wouldn't be difficult to find. (BTW, Castlemaid, Andy has a litter sister to your dog here in South Jersey and this female is in preparation for AKC, Tracking, and Therapy certifications. She has rock solid nerve and is very social, owner doesn't chose to do bitework but is an old AKC GS breed person in show and obedience and has told me that this dog is phenomenal and she can't get a dog like this from lines she used in the past.) Guess she just had dumb luck also! There are good dogs out there that will bring balance back to the breed, but dogs don't set up their own breedings, so its usually the ignorance or the ego that drives breeders today to create the type dogs we see representatively in the breed ring and sport field. And of course where do the Judges come from ......no not lawyers(Got cha!!), but usually successful breeders in the show and sport ring. So it becomes self perpetuating.


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## thedogbreedexpert

*The GSD has mastered such a wide variety of skills...*



codmaster said:


> We must disagree on this one as I don't think the characteristics of a seeing eye dog would be the same that I would want in a protection dog. Sound mental capability yes! Quick to react to a "bad" guy, not so much in a therapy/seeing eye dog.
> 
> Not likely to get these two in the same dog!


codmaster,

actually the main reason why the German Shepherd dog became one of the world's most popular breeds is due to the fact that although some breeds are better at specific tasks, no other breed has mastered such a wide variety of skills. The German Shepherd dog has served as a police dog, war dog, guide dog, search-and-rescue dog, narcotics-or explosives-detecting dog, show dog, guard dog, shepherd and even as a pet. I write about this on my site: The German Shepherd Dog Breed 
Check it out when you get a chance.


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## codmaster

thedogbreedexpert said:


> codmaster,
> 
> actually the main reason why the German Shepherd dog became one of the world's most popular breeds is due to the fact that although some breeds are better at specific tasks, no other breed has mastered such a wide variety of skills. The German Shepherd dog has served as a police dog, war dog, guide dog, search-and-rescue dog, narcotics-or explosives-detecting dog, show dog, guard dog, shepherd and even as a pet. I write about this on my site: The German Shepherd Dog Breed
> Check it out when you get a chance.


Very true about the GSD breed as a whole but not so much in an individual dog - the requirements are just too different. 

Or maybe do you think we could take the German Sieger (or Siegeren) one year (as I think that most people would agree that this dog or bitch should have a mentally sound temperament) and send them right into seeying eye dog training?

Or how about the WDA winner from their annual show.

I really do not believe that this would be a usual (or expected) thing to be able to do. By the same token I don't believe that we could take the herding top dog and make him/her a top notch K9 operative and yet I certainly am in great agreement that the GSD breed can do all of these things very well!

Could a single individual GSD be good at all these things - YES! I believe that you can find a single dog that could do these things; BUT I do not believe that it is or would be expected to think that the average GSD could even be reasonably expected to be good at all these things and more. 

Similar - would you expect a single person to be a world class athelete as well as a top scholar? No, but a single rare individual might be able to be both.


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## Xeph

> would you expect a single person to be a world class athelete as well as a top scholar?


Ummm....lots of college athletes fit both. Many pros did both as well.


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## codmaster

Xeph said:


> Ummm....lots of college athletes fit both. Many pros did both as well.


Many college athletes are good at the college level of each but hardly would be considered "World Class". 

True world class = "Professional" not collegiate!


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## Xeph

> True world class = "Professional" not collegiate!


And if you noticed, I included pros in my statement.


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## codmaster

Xeph said:


> And if you noticed, I included pros in my statement.


 
Got a few of the "many" examples that you know?


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## Xeph

Since I don't watch sports except soccer (world cup) and haven't paid attention to the Packers since the 90's (and even barely then), no, I don't have examples off hand, nor am I going to dig them up because you want to be in a peeing contest.


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## codmaster

Xeph said:


> Since I don't watch sports except soccer (world cup) and haven't paid attention to the Packers since the 90's (and even barely then), no, I don't have examples off hand, nor am I going to dig them up because you want to be in a peeing contest.


*That is about what I figured!* Thanks for confirming.

Wonder what you were basing your statment above on, I guess just your opinion?

BTW, it is usually refered to as a pissing contest!

Are you suggesting that you think at least one of the Packers football players is a *world class* scholar? HA! HA! HA!


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## lhczth

codmaster said:


> Or maybe do you think we could take the German Sieger (or Siegeren) one year (as I think that most people would agree that this dog or bitch should have a mentally sound temperament) and send them right into seeying eye dog training?


Nope, because the German Sieger, just like the American Grand Victor, is an extreme example of specialization not versatility.



codmaster said:


> By the same token I don't believe that we could take the herding top dog and make him/her a top notch K9 operative


You need a better understanding of herding dogs as used in Germany. What is needed for one is needed for the other. 



codmaster said:


> Could a single individual GSD be good at all these things - YES! I believe that you can find a single dog that could do these things; BUT I do not believe that it is or would be expected to think that the average GSD could even be reasonably expected to be good at all these things and more.


In this day and age, you may be right since the breed has been bred to be very specialized, but that is NOT how it was originally designed. Of course Cliff gave you some examples of dogs that are very versitile and have done well in many fields and sports. 



codmaster said:


> Similar - would you expect a single person to be a world class athelete as well as a top scholar? No, but a single rare individual might be able to be both.


No, but that is like comparing apples to oranges. But I can expect a single person to be a world class athlete in many sports.


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## codmaster

Quote:
Originally Posted by *codmaster*  
_Or maybe do you think we could take the German Sieger (or Siegeren) one year (as I think that most people would agree that this dog or bitch should have a mentally sound temperament) and send them right into seeying eye dog training?
_

Nope, because the German Sieger, just like the American Grand Victor, is an extreme example of specialization not versatility.

*So then would you say that the German people have not done any better than the US show folks? And their "top" dogs are also not very versatile? Is there anybody breeding the dog that you seem to think exists that can "do it all and be great" in all of the various roles/jobs that an individual GSD can do?*
*
*Quote:
Originally Posted by *codmaster*  
_By the same token I don't believe that we could take the herding top dog and make him/her a top notch K9 operative_

You need a better understanding of herding dogs as used in Germany. What is needed for one is needed for the other. *Yea, if that is true then you must be right. German herding must be VERY different than American herding as in the US very rarely does the dog need to track and stop humanswho might have guns and knifes and also very rarely does the US K9 have to round up a bunch of woolies!
*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *codmaster*  
_Could a single individual GSD be good at all these things - YES! I believe that you can find a single dog that could do these things; BUT I do not believe that it is or would be expected to think that the average GSD could even be reasonably expected to be good at all these things and more._

In this day and age, you may be right since the breed has been bred to be very specialized, but that is NOT how it was originally designed. Of course Cliff gave you some examples of dogs that are very versitile and have done well in many fields and sports. *The breed has not been specialized - actually certain lines/breeders have decided to specialize in breeding dogs to be better at certain jobs/roles.
*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *codmaster*  
_Similar - would you expect a single person to be a world class athelete as well as a top scholar? No, but a single rare individual might be able to be both._

No, but that is like comparing apples to oranges. But I can expect a single person to be a world class athlete in many sports. *"apples to oranges???????" How many people do you know who are truly world class athletes in more than one unrelated sports? Doesn't happen except in very rare cases!*
__________________

Interesting thoughts!


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## Mrs.K

> The breed has not been specialized - actually certain lines/breeders have decided to specialize in breeding dogs to be better at certain jobs/roles.


Doesn't mean that they can't be versatile. 

It's like with jumping or dressage horses, or Haflinger. Do you know how many horses are bread for a certain thing and end up doing something completely different?

Haflinger (mountain horses) do great in reining. Some of the best reiners in the EWU Germany are Haflingers.

Rio, the very old horse of my sister was bread to be a jumper. He ended up going successfully in M-Dressage. 

Specialization doesn't mean anything. Either they have it or they don't have it and if a dog has a sound temperament, learns quickly he can do anything and everything. 

Its about YOU! It's about the handler, if they don't take the time to find out they will never know!


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## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> Doesn't mean that they can't be versatile. *Of course they could but, if the job demands certain characteristics (defensive attitude, very easy going, very hyped attitude, etc.) then it is very difficult for a given individual to do good at all jobs!)*
> 
> It's like with jumping or dressage horses, or Haflinger. Do you know how many horses are bread for a certain thing and end up doing something completely different?
> 
> *How about a plow horse and a race horse? they might switch jobs but probably wouldn't be very successful, would they?*
> 
> Haflinger (mountain horses) do great in reining. Some of the best reiners in the EWU Germany are Haflingers.
> 
> Rio, the very old horse of my sister was bread to be a jumper. He ended up going successfully in M-Dressage.
> 
> Specialization doesn't mean anything. Either they have it or they don't have it and if a dog has a sound temperament, learns quickly he can do anything and everything. *What do mean by "it"? If you mean the attitudes, physical makeup like size, and mental characteristics - these are going to be a little different for each potential job of the GSD (i.e. wouldn't you agree that the characteristics of a top Sch dog would be at least a little different than that of a seeing eye candidate or maybe a therapy dog?)*
> 
> Its about YOU! It's about the handler, if they don't take the time to find out they will never know!


*HuH?* *Have no idea what you are trying to say .*


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## Chris Wild

codmaster said:


> *Yea, if that is true then you must be right. German herding must be VERY different than American herding as in the US very rarely does the dog need to track and stop humanswho might have guns and knifes and also very rarely does the US K9 have to round up a bunch of woolies!
> *


Training and character are two different things.

The temperament traits that make a dog suitable for the two endeavors are essentially the same in most respects. From there it is only a matter of what the trainer decides to make the dog's job. The discussion is on what GSDs can do by virtue of their genetics, not what different people choose to train in.

IMO, the constant repetition of "world class" this and "world class" that indicates a fundamental understanding of the heritage and purpose of this breed. It was never intended to be a "world class" anything. "World class" implies specialization, and that is contrary to the design of this breed. The GSD is to be the "jack of all trades, master of none". The widely versatile dog that isn't best at anything, but is second best at everything.

So to keep with the metaphors you like of scholars and athletes, to ask for examples of Rhodes Scholars who are Major League MVPs is beyond "apples and oranges" for the discussion at hand. The GSD isn't supposed to be the canine equivalent of Albert Einstein or Thomas Eddison or Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan. 

Rather, the example of the kid who has a starting position on the college ball team, who shows up to every practice and plays every game, can be counted on to think and play smart and be a team player and always get his job done, who keeps at it when it gets tough without getting rattled when things go awry, all while maintaining that A- average is exactly the way a GSD should be. Valedictorian? No. Heisman trophy winner? No. Great at anything? No. Versatile, adaptable and better than good at everything? YES!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Morgan Horse.


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## Samba

The German Shepherd was a jack of all trades, golden middle kind of dog. That a dog could do well at several "tasks" just doesn't sound that far out. Today we have niche breeding for specialized competition venues. Perhaps this makes it hard for people to imagine how the breed was and what a broadly bred dog could do.


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## codmaster

Chris Wild said:


> Training and character are two different things. *True, but who ever said they were the same? And I don't see where this statment, while of course very true has anything to do with the discussion.*
> 
> The temperament traits that make a dog suitable for the two endeavors are essentially the same in most respects. From there it is only a matter of what the trainer decides to make the dog's job. The discussion is on what GSDs can do by virtue of their genetics, not what different people choose to train in.
> *If, as you seem to imply, the exact same dog can do equally well in K9 work and therapy dog work, I wonder why very often folks involved in any of these specialized fields seem to want to breed their own lines with an emphasis on certain traits that are important to the chosen job?*
> 
> IMO, the constant repetition of "world class" this and "world class" that indicates a fundamental understanding of the heritage and purpose of this breed. *It was never intended to be a "world class" anything.*
> *I think that many, many folks in the GSD world would certainly disagree strongly with you on this statment.*
> 
> 
> "World class" implies specialization, and that is contrary to the design of this breed. The GSD is to be the "jack of all trades, master of none". The widely versatile dog that isn't best at anything, but is second best at everything.
> 
> *In order to meet this goal, the breeder has to select for certain characteristics thus tending toward a certain degree of specialization like it or not.*
> 
> *If someone asked you to help them find a dog that would be outstanding in Schh, for example, would you tell them to select a GSD? Or maybe a breed that is the best at this (maybe a Mal from what I have heard). If you did suggest a GSD then would it's lines and ancestory come into your consideration or would any GSD puppy be a good choice? It sounds like ideally you are saying any GSD from any breeding should be a good choice. I don't really believe that you would say that but it does sound like it.*
> 
> So to keep with the metaphors you like of scholars and athletes, to ask for examples of Rhodes Scholars who are Major League MVPs is beyond "apples and oranges" for the discussion at hand. The GSD isn't supposed to be the canine equivalent of Albert Einstein or Thomas Eddison or Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan.
> 
> Rather, the example of the kid who has a starting position on the college ball team *(BTW - think there is any difference in the requirements for even this player at say, Texas versus Podunk College)*, who shows up to every practice and plays every game, can be counted on to think and play smart and be a team player and always get his job done, who keeps at it when it gets tough without getting rattled when things go awry, all while maintaining that A- average is exactly the way a GSD should be. Valedictorian? No. Heisman trophy winner? No. Great at anything? No. Versatile, adaptable and better than good at everything? YES!


So are you saying that any guy (or girl if a female team) coud do this "job" or does he/she have to have certain physical and mental characteristics?

Also, do you think that every GSD should be average or some such at every task that we can come up for a dog? No specialization at all? Could we then expect a GSD to be good at pointing quail? If not then where do we draw the line for a GSD's possible jobs.

I am very confused about what you and others on this forum expect from a GSD and seem to think that any GSD from whatever background will be at least average at all doggy jobs. 

The characteristics required for different jobs are too different for these different potential GSD jobs for any individual dog to be even average (even if you are satisfied with average) at any of them.

Even just the energy level for a seeing eye dog versus a military patrol dog are so different as to preclude the same individual dog to be expected to be suitable for both.


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## Samba

Energy levels? A dog with solid nerve can have "energy" and do many jobs.


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## Chris Wild

codmaster said:


> Training and character are two different things. *True, but who ever said they were the same? And I don't see where this statment, while of course very true has anything to do with the discussion.*


Well, that would be you when in response to Lisa saying:
"You need a better understanding of herding dogs as used in Germany. What is needed for one is needed for the other."

You responded with: " *Yea, if that is true then you must be right. German herding must be VERY different than American herding as in the US very rarely does the dog need to track and stop humanswho might have guns and knifes and also very rarely does the US K9 have to round up a bunch of woolies!*"

Clearly you doubt Lisa's (very correct) statement on the traits needed, and then turned it around into differences in *training* with absurd examples of those differences.

Do you really think stopping a human (weapon or not as a dog cannot recognize it as such) is all that different from stopping a 250lb herd ram with an attitude? Not to mention German herding titles also tested for handler and herd protection from a person. And certainly there's no tracking involved in finding a lost sheep. The dog must just be a world class clairvoyant and know where the sheep wandered off too.



codmaster said:


> *It was never intended to be a "world class" anything.*
> *I think that many, many folks in the GSD world would certainly disagree strongly with you on this statment.*


Obviously. That's quite clear in the sad state of the breed today. Doesn't make them right though, does it? If they were right, shouldn't the breed be better now, rather than fragmented into what amounts to different breeds, with fewer and fewer representatives of any type being able to live up to what the breed is supposed to be?



codmaster said:


> *If someone asked you to help them find a dog that would be outstanding in Schh, for example, would you tell them to select a GSD? Or maybe a breed that is the best at this (maybe a Mal from what I have heard). If you did suggest a GSD then would it's lines and ancestory come into your consideration or would any GSD puppy be a good choice? It sounds like ideally you are saying any GSD from any breeding should be a good choice. I don't really believe that you would say that but it does sound like it.*


I guess it would depend on if they wanted a good GSD who could do well at SchH, or a SchH dog. The two, as with every other venue, are becoming further diverged as time goes on. High level SchH competition is no longer a breed test, it is a specialized sport. Just like conformation showing. What is required to win big at SchH today no longer reflects what is correct for the GSD, and a really good GSD is rarely a really good SchH dog any longer.

If SchH was still practiced as it was intended, and GSDs were still the breed they were intended to be, then yes more often than not "any GSD from any breeding should be a good choice". But that is no longer the case.



codmaster said:


> So are you saying that any guy (or girl if a female team) coud do this "job" or does he/she have to have certain physical and mental characteristics?


Of course not just any guy. But the GSD is not just any dog. The mental and physical traits required are supposed to be at the very core of the breed. And they still are in many dogs. If a dog has solid temperament, excellent nerve, courage, self confidence, balanced drives, protective instinct, a solid work ethic, a biddable and handler focused nature, intelligence that goes beyond basic trainability and also includes judgment and the ability to read a situation before reacting, there is very little the dog can't do if someone puts the time and effort into training it. Is there anything on that list that YOU do not think should be present in every GSD?



codmaster said:


> Could we then expect a GSD to be good at pointing quail? If not then where do we draw the line for a GSD's possible jobs.


I knew a retired SchH dog who was a heck of an upland bird dog, mostly pheasant. And a retired K9 who's handler used him for duck hunting. I'd say that with a good GSD, most anything is possible. 



codmaster said:


> I am very confused about what you and others on this forum expect from a GSD and seem to think that any GSD from whatever background will be at least average at all doggy jobs.


Not from "whatever background". Certainly not. Today there are far more GSDs running around who couldn't than could. But that was not always the case. And there are still some today who live up to that, if you know where to look.



codmaster said:


> The characteristics required for different jobs are too different for these different potential GSD jobs for any individual dog to be even average (even if you are satisfied with average) at any of them.


Wrong. With very few exceptions, the characteristics aren't all that different. And those that are different vary more in degree than in substance.




codmaster said:


> Even just the energy level for a seeing eye dog versus a military patrol dog are so different as to preclude the same individual dog to be expected to be suitable for both.


You really think so?
Let's see...
Walking around all day on patrol with a soldier, always being vigilant and aware of the surroundings and on lookout for anything dangerous or amiss. Maybe having to fly into action for a few minutes, but most days probably not. Then going back to base to hang out and spend the night sleeping by the door.

versus

Walking around all day with a blind person, always being vigilant and aware of the surroundings and on the lookout for anything dangerous or amiss. Maybe having to take matters into his own hands, up to and including selective disobedience if it is the right thing to do. Then going back home to hang out and spend the night sleeping by the door.

The dog's job is different. The characteristics that make it good at that job, once again, not so much.


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## Rei

Excellent post and great examples, Chris. 

I think that specialization is a factor contributing to the problems we have now among the breed. And if people continue to steer the German Shepherd into a "World Champion" in specific venues, the purpose of the breed would hardly exist anymore. 

Want a dog for flashy obedience with humongous drive? People will recommend a Malinois. Want a dog that wows the crowd in herding? People will recommend a Border Collie. Want a sweet tempered family pet that loves everyone? People will recommend a Golden Retriever. And if the purpose behind a breeding is to create a GSD more Malinois than German Shepherd, or Golden Retriever in temperament and German Shepherd in coat, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the GSD will become neither the master of any trade, nor the jack of all? 

GSDs were supposed to be the all around working dog. Many exist that are still able to serve as a police k-9, herd sheep with natural ability, and curl up with a 4 year old at the end of the day to happily endure tail tugs and eye pokes. Granted, they are fewer than they should be... and you know we've come to an unfortunate point when people no longer EXPECT a VA rated dog to be able to pass a SchH1 properly, when people no longer EXPECT a 20x SchH3 dog to be able to earn a TDI and warm people's hearts at a nursing home or library.

It should be a GIVEN... but it is not, because too much focus is put on one venue. Show, sport, family pet, etc. Extremes in any manner are not, IMO, what the GSD should be. When people don't realize that what makes a good guide dog, what makes a good protector, what makes a good herding dog, and what makes a good family companion dog should be the same, instead of mutually exclusive like many seem to be convinced it is.


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## holland

If the breed is supposed to be versatile how come all the breeders on here are forever talking about schutzhund...you do it yourselves and then criticize others for not recognizing the breed is supposed to be versatile


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## Rei

Holland - I am not sure what you mean. Yes, breeders talk about Schutzhund... but they also talk about agility, conformation (AKC and SV), obedience, etc. But it would make sense to talk of SchH more often, when, after all, it was meant to be a test to determine the breed worthiness of a German Shepherd. Watching a GSD at a Schutzhund trial will likely tell you a bit more about the dog and its nerves and temperament compared to watching a GSD at a conformation show.


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## Chris Wild

Because despite what SchH has become on the competitive level, if one doesn't "drink the kool aid" it can still be an exceptional breed test for the traits important for the GSD. If one looks at the DOG, and doesn't get hung up on scores and placements and titles, participation in the venue can still provide great insight into what is a good GSD, and what is not. Especially if one doesn't limit the training and testing of the dog merely to trial day, or what is required for modern trials. There is no other commonly available venue, and certainly not one in which civilians can participate, that even comes close to testing the wide range of traits inherent to working ability. There is no other venue that even places emphasis on versatility like SchH with its 3 phases.


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## Samba

Schutzhund is a test of versatility. It was designed to assess many components of the German Shepherd dog. Yes, it was ( and can still be) a *basic* breed suitability test. Nothing fancy really.

That people think schutzhund is not a test for your basic German shepherd breedworthiness; that they do not realize the role solid nerves play in a dog who possesses drive to be very appropriate in situations that do not require the drive, is telling regarding where the breed is today.


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## cliffson1

It is obvious to me that there are many people on this forum who have never read "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture". This book written by the creator of the breed clearly addresses many of these topic such as whether the dog was supposed to be versatile. I would think the creator of the breed would have a better handle on the "intent" of the breed than I would ever have. Of course contrary to public opinion I would not try to second guess the creator on what the breed should be and do. So all anybody has to do is read the book and the blueprint is laid out very clearly. I have owned the book since 1974 and probably read it fiftysome times over the years. I firmly believe you have to know from where something came and what it was comprised of to fully understand what it should be. JMO


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## codmaster

Chris Wild said:


> Well, that would be you when in response to Lisa saying:
> "You need a better understanding of herding dogs as used in Germany. What is needed for one is needed for the other." *Just German herding? - what about herding in the US or maybe in Australia?*
> 
> You responded with: " *Yea, if that is true then you must be right. German herding must be VERY different than American herding as in the US very rarely does the dog need to track and stop humanswho might have guns and knifes and also very rarely does the US K9 have to round up a bunch of woolies!*"
> 
> Clearly you doubt Lisa's (very correct) statement on the traits needed, and then turned it around into differences in *training* with absurd examples of those differences.
> 
> Do you really think stopping a human (weapon or not as a dog cannot recognize it as such) is all that different from stopping a 250lb herd ram with an attitude? *Much different!* Not to mention German herding titles also tested for handler and herd protection from a person. And certainly there's no tracking involved in finding a lost sheep.
> *Where did this come from - imagination? I was refering to tracking and stoping a human as K9 dogs must often do!*
> 
> The dog must just be a world class clairvoyant and know where the sheep wandered off too. *You think so too? How would you breed for this?*
> 
> Obviously. That's quite clear in the sad state of the breed today. Doesn't make them right though, does it? If they were right, shouldn't the breed be better now, rather than fragmented into what amounts to different breeds, with fewer and fewer representatives of any type being able to live up to what the breed is supposed to be?
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it would depend on if they wanted a good GSD who could do well at SchH, or a SchH dog. *Playing with words here!*
> The two, as with every other venue, are becoming further diverged as time goes on. High level SchH competition is no longer a breed test, it is a specialized sport. Just like conformation showing. What is required to win big at SchH today no longer reflects what is correct for the GSD, and a really good GSD is rarely a really good SchH dog any longer.
> 
> If SchH was still practiced as it was intended, and GSDs were still the breed they were intended to be, then yes more often than not "any GSD from any breeding should be a good choice". *How long ago was this the case? When I got into GSD's in the early 1970's there were many folks then lamenting about the state of the GSD and how the "good old days" were so much better.*
> 
> 
> But that is no longer the case.
> 
> 
> Of course not just any guy. *AH!* But the GSD is not just any dog. The mental and physical traits required are supposed to be at the very core of the breed. And they still are in many dogs. If a dog has solid temperament, excellent nerve, courage, self confidence, *balanced drives*, *protective instinct*, a solid work ethic, a biddable and handler focused nature, intelligence that goes beyond basic trainability and also includes judgment and the ability to read a situation before reacting, there is very little the dog can't do if someone puts the time and effort into training it. Is there anything on that list that YOU do not think should be present in every GSD? *Of course not! Some characteristics will be desired for the potential jobs of a GSD, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. What about protectiveness, sharpness and hardness, defensive drive, etc. - want the same level in a seeing eye dog and a PPD? I wouldn't.*
> 
> 
> 
> I knew *a* retired SchH dog who was a heck of an upland bird dog, mostly pheasant. And *a* retired K9 who's handler used him for duck hunting. I'd say that with a good GSD, most anything is possible.
> *Right!, the point is you talk about "a" retired K9 doing this - do you really think that all or most could do this. The exception that proves the rule! *
> 
> 
> 
> Not from "whatever background". Certainly not. Today there are far more GSDs running around who couldn't than could. But that was not always the case. And there are still some today who live up to that, if you know where to look.
> 
> 
> 
> ......................
> 
> 
> You really think so?
> Let's see...
> Walking around all day on patrol with a soldier, always being vigilant and aware of the surroundings and on lookout for anything dangerous or amiss. Maybe having to fly into action for a few minutes, but most days probably not. Then going back to base to hang out and spend the night sleeping by the door.
> 
> versus
> 
> Walking around all day with a blind person, always being vigilant and aware of the surroundings and on the lookout for anything dangerous or amiss. Maybe having to take matters into his own hands, up to and including selective disobedience if it is the right thing to do. Then going back home to hang out and spend the night sleeping by the door.
> 
> The dog's job is different. The characteristics that make it good at that job, once again, not so much.
> 
> *So you could take a K9 trained patrol dog and assuming it does a good job at that, easily retrain it to be a good seeing eye dog? Right? I seriously doubt it!*


*Isn't America wonderful - Everyone can have their own opinion! And usualy does.*

*So lets see if I now understand: - any individual good GSD should be able to do any of the multitude of jobs that we give to dogs today and do it at an expert level because the requirements are all the same. And in fact a single GSD could do ALL of these jobs (with appropriate training of course).*

*The above used to be the case in the past but is not now due to the specialization approach by many breeders who are trying to steer the GSD breed toward certain jobs demanding certain characteristics.*


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## holland

Nope Cliff didn't read the book...oh well


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## cliffson1

Holland, no problem. It is one of the best breed books ever written. It deals with issues of health, structure, temperament, size, color, and everything else you could imagine. This book written in the 1920's correctly describes and explains what will happen to the breed when certain mindsets and practices prevail. The book is scarily prophetic in terms of breeding practices that will be detrimental to the breed (in detail), and then implores responsible breeders to not let these practices and attitudes take root. Once read objectively, it crystalizes many things about the breed and enlightens as to why certain things are so persistent.(Such as color, size, ears, temperament, structure,etc). 
In the end I equate it to the "good Book" of the breed. For the serious breeders it provides guidance to ensure that we don't lose our way. JMO
Chris: As I have said on many occaisions, a litter of German Shepherds should have pups that are capable of doing anything from therapy, to family, to police, to herding. The litters I breed produces pups that have that potential. You do too, as Jane's dog is testament to. It is simply a mindset of breeding for mind over matter and making compensations immediately when you see something is not as strong as it should be. It also requires indepth knowledge of the abilities and capabilites of this breed and a dogged determination to uphold all of them regardless of our likes or dislikes. 
Many many breeders still do it, but it is becoming infrequent I admit. But the beauty of a noble, courageous , incorruptible German Shepherd is a treasure of lifelong satisfaction that is worth continuing to produce, and sustaining the scorn or lack of knowledge of those who don't or won't. JMO


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## Chris Wild

codmaster said:


> Do you really think stopping a human (weapon or not as a dog cannot recognize it as such) is all that different from stopping a 250lb herd ram with an attitude? *Much different!*


Please explain how you see these as "much different!"
Not in terms of training, that is obvious. Clearly one has had the training and experience to know he can subdue a ram, and the best means to do so, and the other that he can subdue a man, and the best means to do so. But that is environmental. I'm talking about the inherent characteristics within the dog.

Both ask the dog to confront an opponent who is larger and stronger, at the very real risk of injury to himself, and stand firm without backing down until that opponent submits. This requires hardness, courage, persistance, a very high (or non existant) threshold for avoidance, and strong fight drive and the desire to dominate that opponent even if it isn't easy. Actually, in many ways the ram requires more of that than the human, since most humans are cowards and if faced with a dog will back down much quicker than the ram will. And if it happens to be a ewe with lambs who gets out of line, oh boy... then even that ram might seem like child's play.

So honestly, where do you see this huge difference as it applies to the character of the dog?



codmaster said:


> I guess it would depend on if they wanted a good GSD who could do well at SchH, or a SchH dog. *Playing with words here!*


No, not word play. Reality. The two that used to be one and the same are now very different, especially when someone is talking about high levels of competition as you specified. Anyone who doesn't realize that either doesn't spend any time involved in SchH, or isn't paying attention.





codmaster said:


> I knew *a* retired SchH dog who was a heck of an upland bird dog, mostly pheasant. And *a* retired K9 who's handler used him for duck hunting. I'd say that with a good GSD, most anything is possible.
> *Right!, the point is you talk about "a" retired K9 doing this - do you really think that all or most could do this. The exception that proves the rule! *


Once again, let's examine what is require from the standpoint of the character of the dog.

If a dog can search over hill and dale for a lost child or bad guy, or find drugs in a school locker room or parking lot, what is inherrently different in searching for birdies? If a dog can ride in a boat and fetch his toy out of the water, what is inherrently different from riding in a boat and fetching a dead bird out of the water?

Mainly training. The biggest obstacles would be grip. Most hunting breeds are soft mouthed, whereas working and herding breeds are not. But, natural instinct or not that could be taught. The other obstacle is that most hunting breeds have a natural halt of behavior in their hunting sequence: they track, stalk, point and (depending on breed) may or may not flush, but it stops there. Whereas most GSDs continue with that sequence on through flush, chase, catch and kill. But a dog could be taught to stop earlier in the sequence through training.

I'm not saying most GSDs are going to be good hunting dogs, but then that does not fall under the pervue of traditional job for the breed so really is irrelevant to this discussion. But more than one or two "exceptions" could with the right training if someone wanted to put the time in.




codmaster said:


> *So you could take a K9 trained patrol dog and assuming it does a good job at that, easily retrain it to be a good seeing eye dog? Right? I seriously doubt it!*


I didn't say that. I said the inherent requirements of the military patrol dog and seeing eye dog, two examples that you chose, are not that dissimilar. Particularly with regard to *energy level* the specific quality that you chose to focus on and discuss. I'll quote you directly:
"Even just the energy level for a seeing eye dog versus a military patrol dog are so different as to preclude the same individual dog to be expected to be suitable for both. "

Again, please explain where energy level in particular is so different between the two? And how you made the jump from your original statement of energy level differences to crosstraining fully trained military and seeing eye dogs... talk about apples and oranges.

Taking an adult, trained dog, who has because of his vocation had different traning, different experiences, different individual drives and responses and behaviors encouraged or dampened due to his training and work at his job is another matter entirely because you can't undo that environmental influence. But taking the young dog, a blank slate, and training it in either and having it perform well is, and should be, highly likely. 


Bottom line is, EVERY bloodline, and ideally EVERY litter of GSDs ought to produce dogs capable of every job to which the GSD is intended to be suited. And most, not all but most, individual pups in those litters ought to have the characteristics to be suitable for most, though again not necessarily all, of those jobs if only the appropriate training is applied. Those few more specialized pups and vocations should be the exceptions, not the norm. And every single pup in every single litter of every single bloodline of GSD ought to be capable of doing something worthwhile and constructive. Whether or not people choose to utilize that is neither here nor there. Some will, some won't, and that is fine. But the dogs theselves ought to be capable.


----------



## Liesje

I think regardless of how we each feel about whether a GSD can be bred to do *every* job or needs more targeted breeding, I hope we all agree that a GSD should have the potential to do *some* job. There are so many lines and kennels of dogs that really can't do much of anything beyond hold down the couch and basic obedience. IMO that is wrong. I'm sorry but to me a CGC and a basic obedience title are not proof that the dog is really capable of working (maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but those titles are pretty easily attainable by any dog of any breed, not enough IMO to really demonstrate even to the owner/trainer what the dog is capable of). I'm not slamming these activities, I do them too with all my dogs, but I would not say that the CGC, the herding instinct, and the rally titles on my dogs prove they can "work". To prove that I think my dogs need far more extensive work and training, something that really shows their power and courage and puts them under the appropriate amount of pressure to expose all the strengths and weaknesses in the dog.

As far as angulation I don't personally care one way or the other, I just like a dog that has balance so the rear matches the front and the dog moves with a fluid motion, isn't all loosey-goosey, back stays firm, etc. I know what I like and want as far as conformation but it's just personal preference.


----------



## Chris Wild

codmaster said:


> If a dog has solid temperament, excellent nerve, courage, self confidence, *balanced drives*, *protective instinct*, a solid work ethic, a biddable and handler focused nature, intelligence that goes beyond basic trainability and also includes judgment and the ability to read a situation before reacting, there is very little the dog can't do if someone puts the time and effort into training it. Is there anything on that list that YOU do not think should be present in every GSD? *Of course not! Some characteristics will be desired for the potential jobs of a GSD, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. What about protectiveness, sharpness and hardness, defensive drive, etc. - want the same level in a seeing eye dog and a PPD? I wouldn't.*


You specified 4 traits you see as being different, so I'll address those.

Protectiveness. Is there actually anyone out there who thinks a GSD, any GSD regardless of its job, shouldn’t be protective???? If there is, I would certainly suggest that person look to another breed entirely. Certainly in today’s world, this is often considered a bad thing. There was a time when people naturally expected dogs, particularly of breeds like the GSD, to be protective and had no problem with it. Today you might be getting a nasty letter from a lawyer if your dog looks at someone funny, or makes them sneeze or sheds a piece of dog hair on them. Times sure have changed….. And many SD organizations have gone along with the PC idea that people have a right not to be offended or intimidated or scared, no matter how unreasonable, and thus moved away from GSDs lest they scare the public. That is a problem with the world, not the dog. Personally, if I were disabled in any fashion and that might interfere with my ability to spot and respond to a threat to my person, especially if my disability might increase my chances of being a target by making me appear as easy pickin’s to the bad guys, I would want my SD to be able to make up for that. I know many disabled persons who feel the same and will choose the GSD over the Labradoodle specifically for its better deterrent value and protective instinct.

Sharpness. This refers to the trigger threshold for recognizing a threat, and going into defense. Every GSD, regardless of its vocation, should have the ability to recognize a true threat if one presents itself. A “sharp” dog is a dog with a low trigger threshold. While there are some jobs where this might be appropriate, there are not many and I would categorize them as the exceptions that could be considered specialized. Clearly, a seeing eye dog should not be sharp. But then neither should most PPDs. After all, what use is a PPD if you can’t have the dog with you? How is it to protect you if it is stuck in crate or kennel or car lest it be going off on innocent people? More “specialized” PPDs peddled by certain types of (quite often questionable at best) personal protection trainers often do put emphasis on sharpness. But most people wanting a PPD want a dog who can also be a family dog and who can accompany them when they are out and about. If it can't do that, the dog can afford no protection whatsoever. But of course they don't want to be getting sued every week either, so the dog must be sound and stable around people in general and only react if there is a true threat, or if cued to do so (through training) by the owner. A high degree of sharpness is actually undesirable for most PPDs.

Hardness. Hardness merely refers to a dog's resiliency to negative experiences. A hard dog is one who does not shut down, avoid, or have his attitude significantly diminished when he encounters an aversive. Whether as PPD or seeing eye dog, I certainly would not want to trust my safety and well being to a dog who was soft and easily lost focus, purpose and a willingness to keep working, and I can't imagine anyone would.

Defense Drive. Do you understand what defense drive is? Simply, it is a form of reactive aggression that comes into play when the dog's fight/flight response is triggered. The dog with defense drive will fight first, the dog without it will flee and go into avoidance. Different dogs will have different trigger thresholds for perception of a threat (see sharpness above), but once that threshold is reached ANY and EVERY GSD should show strong defense drive in response to the threat, and sustainability of that drive until the threat has gone away. How can anyone say a GSD, regardless of its job, does not need defense drive? That is the same as saying that when a GSD encounters a threat it should turn tail and run. I don't think anyone, anywhere, would say that is an appropriate reaction for a GSD, I don't care what its job is!


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## Doc

Cliff
I've read that book - several times. I would venture to say that a majority of people involved with the GSD today haven't read it. Let alone taken anytime to study the evolution of this breed to it's current state of mediocrity at best. Some of the old timers understand this breed on a level that many will never reach - it's sad, but true; especially the ones that are blind to the dogs and bloodlines of the 50s, 60s and early 70s.


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## Vandal

Huge numbers of people have never met a real German Shepherd. So, you could argue all day and never get the poiint across. This is something a person has to experience. You cannot explain it in words if they have never seen it.


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## robinhuerta

I have an honest question to ask.....
I read post after post of debates...angulation, structure, temperament..etc..etc...
Since...by the posts being made..."Many have not even seen a real German Shepherd Dog".....please explain where we can find them today?....who are the breeders of such dogs?...
very curious?!...


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## Vandal

Robin, 
Although I get the impression that was more of a sarcastic question than an honest one, IMO, there are not very many but you can PM me if you want my list.

These are discussions about the BREED. I have read posts by you where you basically have admitted there is a problem, so, understanding that a large portion of the population has never seen a GSD with all the required components shouldn't be that hard to understand. 
The posts about structure, specifically about straight backs, discussed the entire breed. It was not aimed at one group, not on my part anyway. Anyone who has read what I have to say knows I believe a certain type of temperament should exist in the GSD. Without it, it is NOT a GSD in my opinion. I have a training kennel here. I work with all kinds of GSDs and MANY are lacking the traits that the standard calls for, particularity nerves. The people who own them think that is what a GSD is and that , to me, is a tragedy.


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## cliffson1

Doc and Anne, truer words have never been said. Reminds me of adult teenagers who have tasted enough of life to know everything. The difference is that life ensures that eventually they will see things from a different perspective if they live that long. Doc, its obvious most times the people who have read the book. Again, for average GS owner, I'm not advocating its necessary, but for a breeder.....its an invaluable source of what the breed is and should be. 
Here is the irony Doc, my book is an original 1926 second edition of the English version. This book was given to me by an Eighty year old woman in 1977 who had been a member of the Long Island German Shepherd Dog Club, which is one of the first breed clubs in the country. This lady liked my committment to learning about the breed and also thought my Marko vom Cellerland son and female from Ernie Loeb were very nice examples of the breed. So she "gave" me her book!! The irony is she was a breed person and I wonder what she would think about the breed ring today knowing her foundation????/


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## Doc

cliffson1 said:


> Doc and Anne, truer words have never been said. Reminds me of adult teenagers who have tasted enough of life to know everything. The difference is that life ensures that eventually they will see things from a different perspective if they live that long. Doc, its obvious most times the people who have read the book. Again, for average GS owner, I'm not advocating its necessary, but for a breeder.....its an invaluable source of what the breed is and should be.
> Here is the irony Doc, my book is an original 1926 second edition of the English version. This book was given to me by an Eighty year old woman in 1977 who had been a member of the Long Island German Shepherd Dog Club, which is one of the first breed clubs in the country. This lady liked my committment to learning about the breed and also thought my Marko vom Cellerland son and female from Ernie Loeb were very nice examples of the breed. So she "gave" me her book!! The irony is she was a breed person and I wonder what she would think about the breed ring today knowing her foundation????/


It's probably best that she is with her maker. I'm sure she was familiar with Lloyd Brackett's breeding program and the dogs he once produced. A lot of GS breeders today have never heard of Ernie Loeb, Lloyd Brackett, or Mr. & Mrs. Bauer nor the German shepherds of their era.


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## robinhuerta

Not a sarcastic question Anne...an honest one.
With all the posts one right after another, regarding all the problems being discussed about the breed....my question holds validity......since most GSD are not what they are supposed to be (opinions stated as such)....where are these few GSD & breeders that are being bred??
I read post after post (some made by breeders)...that continually point out how the breed is being destroyed......ok....are they themselves helping destroy the breed?...or are they stating that only their own breedings qualify as the true GSD today?
Do you see what I am trying to ask????
ALL honest, ethical breeders should have the same goals in mind......so what is to say, that the dogs they breed are best?
I know what I'm trying to ask....perhaps it is not coming thru in text.....
As for being sarcastic.....I try to be proper in my wording....being sarcastic or a fool is not one of my traits....God knows, I don't care to be either.


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## holland

Its ok Robin I like you...and scarsm is a good coping strategy


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## holland

Oh and do tell did Alderstein PM you her "list"?


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## Samba

The book is a very "good book". I purchased it within a couple of years of getting a pet GSD from specific lines. I got it because I was bent on finding out about the breed after seeing so many that didn't fit what I "knew" about them from reports of service to mankind.

Like any "good book" it has an amazing quality at times. When one reads it, some things appear to have been written for today. I think this is because the human element of dog breeding hasn't changed much. The breed founder has many criticisms of faults. He points out deficiencies in breeding. He points to pitfalls and warns of the paths to problems in the breed very directly. 

Does this make the founder a "humbug" who is was not happy with his beloved breed? Does it make him a critical curmudgeon out to spoil everyones' fun? I don't think so. He and many others after him have worked or work to preserve the breed by warning of the possible loss of the foundation qualities. 

Whole breed clubs have taken paths fairly far afield from the breed's foundation. They have continued down roads with breeding to almost ridiculous places. It usually takes a few people dedicated to the breed to grab them by the scruff of the neck and attempt to right the deficiencies in the overall breedings. Knowing what can happen, makes my ears perk up to any information pointing out potential problems. It is real. It is the human tendency to follow along and our guard must always be up. Don't think that a large group of people dedicated to the dogs can't take the breeding of them far afield. 

Unfortunately, because in many ways preservation has failed, it makes anyone who says otherwise possibly seem "out of step". Those people may seem out of the mainstream, grinding an axe or what have you. It is important to realize that such assumptions may not be the most servicable to our dogs. The path to good German Shepherd production is relatively narrow, I suspect. 

I think it is very hard to really understand what one has not seen or experienced. It is even more difficult to really grok it and achieve mastery, because it has to almost permeate you through immersed experience and understanding. Shared experience is so critical for understanding and we may not have much of that.

Found my copy of the book again. I suspect the message to me is that it is time for a spell of reading again. Too hot to train.


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## robinhuerta

I have no PM's from anyone......
The position of judging who & what is deemed "qualified" as a good breeder and GSD dog is not the "right" of any chosen few...
Each person has their own ideas and agenda in what they do and hold dear....
My question is a simple one......"who are these breeders and dogs" that are held to the standard of being the true GSD of today?.....and whom qualifies to appoint them as such??
If we ALL believe as breeders, trainers owners.. etc... that WE are striving to produce & promote the best breedings & dogs....who has the right to say different?

Again...perhaps, my question & wording is not being understood correctly.....?


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## Vandal

You are taking this a bit off track. No one has declared themselves the all knowing or as the authority to declare anything. I am not trying to endorse breeders on this board and can honestly say , I never have, nor do I have an interest in doing so. Never promoted my dogs and have no interest in doing that here either. When I see a good dog, I will say it is a good dog, no matter what the bloodline. I base my belief of what a good dog is on years of experience working GSDs of all types. Some claim only the shows and SchH are what we should measure with. I have understood that to be your belief based on your posts but I could be wrong about that. Now you are saying it is about what the breeder is doing. I actually agree. 

Discussions of structure using pictures, while not always accurate, are much easier than discussing temperament. That is something you have to see and experience and I have done plenty of that and continue to do it on a daily basis. Hence my concern for what has happened. I have participated in just about every thing the dogs can do, including shows and I am expressing my opinion based on what I have seen and worked. I DO see a difference but maybe mine is a view that most people do not and never will have. I started in a different era where the dogs were trained and worked in a different way. Usually, the people who have been around a while completely understand what I am talking about when I say "different". 

Mostly, I try to help people understand the breed and share what I have learned training all different types of GSDs for the last few decades. I sure am not here trying to hurt people's feelings, just sharing what I know. I try to breed what I talk about. Am I always successful? Uh no. I know people who have bred some fantastic dogs over the years. Were they always successful? No, but they had a deep understanding of what the breed is supposed to be. I do think there are many people who don't have that understanding, so, I try to share and explain what I have learned from others and based on my experience. It's that simple.


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## Doc

Hey Anne,

I'm in love with Nogi and Heist ...


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## robinhuerta

Anne......then you have been completely wrong in what you think my beliefs & ideas are.. from the beginning..
I have show dogs whom are titled & can compete in the ring....because I ENJOY the venue....it will always be "my icing on the cake". I breed dogs that can & do conform to the requirements of the breed.......at least this has always been my goal.
I ENJOY certain venues, but I have never stated that they are the end all requirements for this breed.....they are simply choices and personal goals that I choose to make my own.
As I have always stated....a good dog is a good dog period.
I personally believe that this breed should be capable of doing what it was bred to do.....are ALL puppies and dogs created equal??...of course not. 
I appreciate learned knowledge from ALL people...and I may agree or not...but I still respect their opinions.
If one breeds dogs, and makes it their personal goal to do such... that can be used as Service K9s, Police K9s or Herding Dogs.._and_ enjoy the sport venues....they can be justified as good breeders on my list.....no matter what bloodlines they may be born from.
Respectfully,
Robin


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## Doc

I think the point is that a German shepherd - at least the dogs some of us remember - did it all, willingly, and was easy to handle because they had inate abilities in all the areas; not just one or two specific talents.

Many dogs today are "trained" to perform a task, years ago they did the task for the love of it and expected no rewards and were genetically programed to do a multitude of services/work. The basic instinct and genetic make-up of those dogs were/are much different than a majority of the German shepherds we see today.

If the only thing a particular German shepherd dog can do is bite a sleeve or look good in a show-ring, is it a good representation of the breed? And if a dog is titled as a World Champion but dies at age 7, is it breed worthy? Today, many breeders and lines are so narrow focused and genetically deficient that we have lost all the other characteristics and genetics that made this breed what it was. JMO


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## Samba

The fact that there is so much talk of specialization itself tells the tale in many ways...


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## cliffson1

robinhuerta said:


> I have no PM's from anyone......
> The position of judging who & what is deemed "qualified" as a good breeder and GSD dog is not the "right" of any chosen few...
> Each person has their own ideas and agenda in what they do and hold dear....
> My question is a simple one......"who are these breeders and dogs" that are held to the standard of being the true GSD of today?.....and whom qualifies to appoint them as such??
> If we ALL believe as breeders, trainers owners.. etc... that WE are striving to produce & promote the best breedings & dogs....who has the right to say different?
> 
> Again...perhaps, my question & wording is not being understood correctly.....?


 I don't remember anyone saying that they had the right to deem what is qualified as a good breeder or dogs. I do remember people quote/repeating, citing, reiterating, things like the standard, the legacy, and even the founder as a basis for review of dogs and breeding practices. With the views I am hearing, why have a standard??? Afterall, most everybody breeding IS striving to produce and promote the best dogs and who is to say different?
I will conclude this dialogue with these thoughts. You really want to know about the German Shepherd breeding practices of today?
Well....ask instructors of seeing-eye schools, ask instructors of police/military academies, ask people that really do herding, ask Judges of Group competitions in all breed shows, and I believe you will hear a consistent theme. Now if the practitioners of the vocations that the dog was made to work in, says it is diffcult to find a good one anymore, then you can always blame their opinions on them probably having been influenced by Cliff in his appointed role. Peace!


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## robinhuerta

Doc...let me answer your question truthfully...."Yes" if the world champion dies at the age of 7..AND produced many excellent dogs while being alive.....yes it was breed worthy.
Every living creature dies.....what it has left to the world is it's legacy.
A 7 year old dog that dies of cancer...or a tragic accident, a rare (non genetic) disease...can still himself, be an excellent producer for the breed.
That would be the opposite of a dog that lived itself to the age of 13, who produced temperamentally weak, dysplastic, unhealthy offspring....
ALL dogs are "trained" to perform tasks...whether they enjoy the task or not.
Biting a sleeve or running a ring...does not make the dog breed worthy.....but a dog that is _incapable_ of doing anything isn't either.
I actually agree with many of the comments directed by some in regards to the breed.....it has not been a "whole" breed in many years.
My lack of understanding or intolerance comes from those, whom believe that because one "chooses" enjoyment from specific venues....their dogs are inferior in respect to others.
I find it hypocritical to suggest that doing nothing is better than doing something.... 
I respect many people's opinions, including Anne, Cliff, Chris, Holland..etc...etc....but I will always be a person who will question ideals and comments.....I have never been good as a follower....nor a hypocrite.
Respectfully,
Robin


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## Jessiewessie99

We love this breed and will do anything to protect it.Remember the reasons we fell in love with this breed. We love the German Shepherd Dog because it is beautiful, loyal, energetic, playful, faithful, protective of its owner, strong, fast, athletic, just an all around great dog. No matter where the dog came from, what we train for, breed for, at the end of the day he/she is the German Shepherd Dog we love, enjoy, take pride, and enjoy. We all have different views of how the dog should look and what we like. We all have a different preference of what we look for in a dog.

For me, my dogs didn't come from breeders or anything. They weren't bred for a certain trait or anything. They aren't breeding quality, working quality, show quality. or anything of the sort. But one thing that is for sure, they are beautiful, loyal, energetic, playful, faithful, protective of my family and me, strong, athletic and all around great dogs. To me they are a German Shepherd and thats what they always will be. I love them for them, I love them because they are a breed I love, cherish, enjoy and take pride on owning them. I love them, they love me. Thats all that matters.

For them they don't care whether or not they are show quality, breeding quality, working quality, all that really matters to them is that you are happy and love them, if you are happy and love them, then they know they did their job. I am not saying no one here doesn't love their dog or dogs.

After all, a dog is a man or a woman's best friend.

Just my 2 cents. And now I will go an hug my 2 beuatiful, loyal, athletic, protective, energetic, playful, faithful, and all around great German Shepherds.


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## Samba

I have heard and seen enough in a variety of places involved with evaluating the dogs, that I can attest to Cliff's pervasive and overreaching influence! If it were not for him, I am sure all would be well and happiness would abound!


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## Jessiewessie99

Samba said:


> I have heard and seen enough in a variety of places involved with evaluating the dogs, that I can attest to Cliff's pervasive and overreaching influence! If it were not for him, I am sure all would be well and happiness would abound!


I have done good without Cliff.lol I don't know him. But I don't evaluate dogs.lol


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## Doc

robinhuerta said:


> Doc...let me answer your question truthfully...."Yes" if the world champion dies at the age of 7..AND produced many excellent dogs while being alive.....yes it was breed worthy.
> Every living creature dies.....what it has left to the world is it's legacy.
> A 7 year old dog that dies of cancer...or a tragic accident, a rare (non genetic) disease...can still himself, be an excellent producer for the breed.
> That would be the opposite of a dog that lived itself to the age of 13, who produced temperamentally weak, dysplastic, unhealthy offspring....
> ALL dogs are "trained" to perform tasks...whether they enjoy the task or not.
> Biting a sleeve or running a ring...does not make the dog breed worthy.....but a dog that is _incapable_ of doing anything isn't either.
> I actually agree with many of the comments directed by some in regards to the breed.....it has not been a "whole" breed in many years.
> My lack of understanding or intolerance comes from those, whom believe that because one "chooses" enjoyment from specific venues....their dogs are inferior in respect to others.
> I find it hypocritical to suggest that doing nothing is better than doing something....
> I respect many people's opinions, including Anne, Cliff, Chris, Holland..etc...etc....but I will always be a person who will question ideals and comments.....I have never been good as a follower....nor a hypocrite.
> Respectfully,
> Robin


I choose not to be drug into your rant Robin. My comments are nothing more than statements based on experience, observation and study. If I hit a nerve or pushed a hot button, I'm sorry. My grand dad taught me this - if the shoe fits, wear it.

I respect breeders that have proven they can produce German shepherds that are versatile. By the way, I said nothing about "doing nothing is better than doing something". Those are your words, not mine.

I have a better understanding why this breed has declined over the past 35 years. Thanks for your comments.


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## robinhuerta

I think that you forgot your meds?...
There is nothing in my post "directed" AT you personally...except an answer to the hypothetical question you stated....regarding a 7yr old dog...etc..
ACTUALLY....I was posting WHY I ask questions regarding statements and opinions.....perhaps you should have read better?!
I also stated that because I am not a hypocrite NOR follower....I ask such questions and have such opinions.
AGAIN...let me state factual...."Many posters whether this forum or others, will comment about venues or services being worthless...but their dogs themselves do nothing."....hence the comment: "I find it hypocritical to suggest doing nothing is better than doing something"....
I am confident with my own dogs...they can and do perform mutiple tasks and venues....as many other breeders dogs do also.
I do not agree or simply "not" ask questions & debate people, just because I may respect them or not....again, not a follower....nor do I feel the need to "fit" in.
I think YOU had a nerve hit?!

So..understand what you may....no nerve could be hit...and the shoe can't fit.


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## robinhuerta

I also wanted to make a point to say....IF I had directed anything to you Doc or anyone else personally.....I am completely self assured enough to make it noted as such.
Robin


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## lhczth

General reminder to please keep this civil and impersonal.

Admin Lisa

******


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## robinhuerta

Lisa,
I guess because I decided (against my better judgement) to post...asking questions and being the "odd ball in"....it became a "personal" conflict to some.
..when someone does not agree with the majority, they are "troublesome", go against the grain, or are aggressively commented to....(it becomes a hostile envirement)......what a shame...
I'll continue to refrain from commenting, requesting answers & asking questions.....after all...I don't want to rain on any-one's parade.
Please carry on with your topic....


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## lhczth

Robin, that was a "general" reminder meaning a reminder for everyone. You need to not take everything written as being personal and directed at you. 

Admin Lisa

*****


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> Holland, no problem. It is one of the best breed books ever written. It deals with issues of health, structure, temperament, size, color, and everything else you could imagine. This book written in the 1920's correctly describes and explains what will happen to the breed when certain mindsets and practices prevail. The book is scarily prophetic in terms of breeding practices that will be detrimental to the breed (in detail), and then implores responsible breeders to not let these practices and attitudes take root. Once read objectively, it crystalizes many things about the breed and enlightens as to why certain things are so persistent.(Such as color, size, ears, temperament, structure,etc).
> In the end I equate it to the "good Book" of the breed. For the serious breeders it provides guidance to ensure that we don't lose our way. JMO
> Chris: As I have said on many occaisions, a litter of German Shepherds should have pups that are capable of doing anything from therapy, to family, to police, to herding. The litters I breed produces pups that have that potential. You do too, as Jane's dog is testament to. It is simply a mindset of breeding for mind over matter and making compensations immediately when you see something is not as strong as it should be. It also requires indepth knowledge of the abilities and capabilites of this breed and a dogged determination to uphold all of them regardless of our likes or dislikes.
> Many many breeders still do it, but it is becoming infrequent I admit. But the beauty of a noble, courageous , incorruptible German Shepherd is a treasure of lifelong satisfaction that is worth continuing to produce, and sustaining the scorn or lack of knowledge of those who don't or won't. JMO


Can't say I disagree with your goals for the GSD breed, of course. But I probably would doubt the probability of achieving it or even if it is a realistic goal.

If I read your message right, we should be able to take any puppy (if the litter is bred properly) from a litter and train them to be a seeing eye dog and a littermate to be a military K9, a third a police dog, a fourth a Sch, a fifth a family pet, the sixth a S&R dog, and the last one a hunting dog such as a pointer. And these picks can be random - we do not need to test the puppies for special characteristics IF they are all proper GSD's as has been described above. 

Did I understand your position correctly?

BTW, I didn't see anything in the above (might have missed it) about the correct looks or conformation of the GSD. Is this also a goal of your breeding so that all the dogs also LOOK like they are supposed to according to the standard?


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## codmaster

Chris Wild said:


> You specified 4 traits you see as being different, so I'll address those.
> 
> Protectiveness. Is there actually anyone out there who thinks a GSD, any GSD regardless of its job, shouldn’t be protective???? If there is, I would certainly suggest that person look to another breed entirely. Certainly in today’s world, this is often considered a bad thing. There was a time when people naturally expected dogs, particularly of breeds like the GSD, to be protective and had no problem with it. Today you might be getting a nasty letter from a lawyer if your dog looks at someone funny, or makes them sneeze or sheds a piece of dog hair on them. Times sure have changed….. And many SD organizations have gone along with the PC idea that people have a right not to be offended or intimidated or scared, no matter how unreasonable, and thus moved away from GSDs lest they scare the public. That is a problem with the world, not the dog. Personally, if I were disabled in any fashion and that might interfere with my ability to spot and respond to a threat to my person, especially if my disability might increase my chances of being a target by making me appear as easy pickin’s to the bad guys, I would want my SD to be able to make up for that. I know many disabled persons who feel the same and will choose the GSD over the Labradoodle specifically for its better deterrent value and protective instinct.
> 
> Sharpness. This refers to the trigger threshold for recognizing a threat, and going into defense. Every GSD, regardless of its vocation, should have the ability to recognize a true threat if one presents itself. A “sharp” dog is a dog with a low trigger threshold. While there are some jobs where this might be appropriate, there are not many and I would categorize them as the exceptions that could be considered specialized. Clearly, a seeing eye dog should not be sharp. But then neither should most PPDs. After all, what use is a PPD if you can’t have the dog with you? How is it to protect you if it is stuck in crate or kennel or car lest it be going off on innocent people? More “specialized” PPDs peddled by certain types of (quite often questionable at best) personal protection trainers often do put emphasis on sharpness. But most people wanting a PPD want a dog who can also be a family dog and who can accompany them when they are out and about. If it can't do that, the dog can afford no protection whatsoever. But of course they don't want to be getting sued every week either, so the dog must be sound and stable around people in general and only react if there is a true threat, or if cued to do so (through training) by the owner. A high degree of sharpness is actually undesirable for most PPDs.
> 
> Hardness. Hardness merely refers to a dog's resiliency to negative experiences. A hard dog is one who does not shut down, avoid, or have his attitude significantly diminished when he encounters an aversive. Whether as PPD or seeing eye dog, I certainly would not want to trust my safety and well being to a dog who was soft and easily lost focus, purpose and a willingness to keep working, and I can't imagine anyone would.
> 
> Defense Drive. Do you understand what defense drive is? Simply, it is a form of reactive aggression that comes into play when the dog's fight/flight response is triggered. The dog with defense drive will fight first, the dog without it will flee and go into avoidance. Different dogs will have different trigger thresholds for perception of a threat (see sharpness above), but once that threshold is reached ANY and EVERY GSD should show strong defense drive in response to the threat, and sustainability of that drive until the threat has gone away. How can anyone say a GSD, regardless of its job, does not need defense drive? That is the same as saying that when a GSD encounters a threat it should turn tail and run. I don't think anyone, anywhere, would say that is an appropriate reaction for a GSD, I don't care what its job is!


Chris - thanks (and I mean it!) thanks for a mostinformative explanation of the above terms! best I have seen in a very long time.

However, I must say that I do disagree a little about the need and esp. the degree needed of some of these in some GSD's depending on the job of the dog. For example I would not want a very sharp hard dog with very high defense drive for either a therapy dog or a family pet. I think that would be a disaster waiting to happen esp. if the family were not very experienced in handling this type of dog.

Now maybe some people would say that then they should not get a GSD to be a pet or a therapy or that the Seeing Eye Institute should not use GSD's in their work.

If that is the case then we are saying that the GSD should be a restricted breed (specialized?) and should only be used for certain duties?

What I am suggesting is that there may be somewhat specialized lines(?) of GSD's who have had an emphasis put on certain characteristics in their breeding. As long as there is an adherence to the standard generally I don't think that this is such a bad thing if it allows us to have GSD's doing a great job in many fields.

In other words, is it a terrible situation if we find that not every puppy in a litter turns out not to be greatly suited to be a Sch or protection dog or for that matter to be a HgH candidate?


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## Jessiewessie99

I think any dog can be great at something if their owner is willing to get involved too. But just because the dog comes from lines of excellent Schutzhund parents doesn't necessarily mean he will be a great Schutzhund dog too, he may be great at something else like agility or something.


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## codmaster

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I think any dog can be great at something if their owner is willing to get involved too. But just because the dog comes from lines of excellent Schutzhund parents doesn't necessarily mean he will be a great Schutzhund dog too, he may be great at something else like agility or something.


Very true, but if both parents and a few of the grandparents and other relatives were great at Sch, the odds are higher that he will be great at Sch than another dog without relatives that were good at Sch. 

That is, we would believe this if we believe that the ability to do great at Sch is influenced by the genes contained in the individual dog. And this may also be true for jobs other than Sch as well.


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## Jessiewessie99

codmaster said:


> Very true, but if both parents and a few of the grandparents and other relatives were great at Sch, the odds are higher that he will be great at Sch than another dog without relatives that were good at Sch.
> 
> That is, we would believe this if we believe that the ability to do great at Sch is influenced by the genes contained in the individual dog. And this may also be true for jobs other than Sch as well.


There is always(if not always most of the time) the one that stands out or excels in another type of dog sport or competition.


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## cliffson1

codmaster said:


> Can't say I disagree with your goals for the GSD breed, of course. But I probably would doubt the probability of achieving it or even if it is a realistic goal.
> 
> If I read your message right, we should be able to take any puppy (if the litter is bred properly) from a litter and train them to be a seeing eye dog and a littermate to be a military K9, a third a police dog, a fourth a Sch, a fifth a family pet, the sixth a S&R dog, and the last one a hunting dog such as a pointer. And these picks can be random - we do not need to test the puppies for special characteristics IF they are all proper GSD's as has been described above.
> 
> Did I understand your position correctly?
> 
> BTW, I didn't see anything in the above (might have missed it) about the correct looks or conformation of the GSD. Is this also a goal of your breeding so that all the dogs also LOOK like they are supposed to according to the standard?


 Codmaster, I will respond to the above and then I leave you folks on the subject of the breed to your bliss and contentment.
I breed litters that have dogs that are capable of and do become Therapy, military, law enforcement , herding, and family pets. Have been doing it for years. Whether or not you believe this or think it is possible is actually of little concern to me as it doesn't change the fact. Dogs with good nerve can do almost anything if trained...several of us have said the same thing and you chose to question this. That's your preogative, and we both can go on living in separate worlds. 
BTW, A dog I bred this year (sable working type), just won the Southeastern Regional USA conformation show in the 9 to 12 month class. I don't know if that is an acceptable level of structure for you, but it reflects the type of dogs I breed. I'm aware you may find that hard to believe, but again it is a fact and the dog has faultless temp to boot!!
No more from me on breed type, it is what it is and if people don't see it or won't acknowledge it continue in bliss...peace!


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## Doc

robinhuerta said:


> I think that you forgot your meds?...
> There is nothing in my post "directed" AT you personally...except an answer to the hypothetical question you stated....regarding a 7yr old dog...etc..
> ACTUALLY....I was posting WHY I ask questions regarding statements and opinions.....perhaps you should have read better?!
> I also stated that because I am not a hypocrite NOR follower....I ask such questions and have such opinions.
> AGAIN...let me state factual...."Many posters whether this forum or others, will comment about venues or services being worthless...but their dogs themselves do nothing."....hence the comment: "I find it hypocritical to suggest doing nothing is better than doing something"....
> I am confident with my own dogs...they can and do perform mutiple tasks and venues....as many other breeders dogs do also.
> I do not agree or simply "not" ask questions & debate people, just because I may respect them or not....again, not a follower....nor do I feel the need to "fit" in.
> I think YOU had a nerve hit?!
> 
> So..understand what you may....no nerve could be hit...and the shoe can't fit.


At my age, there isn't any nerves left; the only people following me are the guys in the white coats; so you don't follow nor care to fit in - are you an island unto yourself? Why doesn't the shoe fit - you got no feet?


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## robinhuerta

Yes Doc....I am on an Island...or at least enough farm land, that even Jesus himself could lose his slippers.
And as for footwear....my personal choice is hiking boots....:shrug:


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> Codmaster, I will respond to the above and then I leave you folks on the subject of the breed to your bliss and contentment.
> I breed litters that have dogs that are capable of and do become Therapy, military, law enforcement , herding, and family pets. Have been doing it for years. Whether or not you believe this or think it is possible is actually of little concern to me as it doesn't change the fact. *As I asked before and it has gone unanswered - do you select a particular puppy to do each of these particular jobs, or can you randomly pick one for police, one for therapy, one of military, etc. etc.? *
> *In other words, can any of the puppies in your litter do each or any of these particular jobs equally well (with the particular training of course). Or would one be better at Sch than some of the others, for example?*
> 
> *I wonder if you could please answer this question from your years of breeder experience? Although I would understand if you choose not to answer this kind of question.*
> 
> 
> Dogs with good nerve can do almost anything if trained...several of us have said the same thing and you chose to question this. That's your preogative, and we both can go on living in separate worlds.
> 
> *I think that they might be able to be trained to do some things; but will not be expert in many of them and would be better replaced by dogs bred to have the built in characteristics to do the work!*
> 
> *But let us go on living both with our own ideas about that!*
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, A dog I bred this year (sable working type), just won the Southeastern Regional USA conformation show in the 9 to 12 month class. I don't know if that is an acceptable level of structure for you, but it reflects the type of dogs I breed. I'm aware you may find that hard to believe, but again it is a fact and the dog has faultless temp to boot!!
> No more from me on breed type, it is what it is and if people don't see it or won't acknowledge it continue in bliss...peace!


*Thanks for the update and I can certainly understand why you would not want to continue. Please don't misunderstand me - I never said or intended to say anything about your dogs - I can see where yours might have flawless temperament.*

*As far as the winning in the breed ring, what is a "Southeastern Regional USA conformation show"? Is that an AKC sanctioned show or one of the smaller dog organizations? Was it put on by an all-breed dog club or a GSD speciality show? And of course the weight and meaning of winning a puppy class depends a great deal on how many other dogs were shown in it's class and also who the judge was for the class. For example, my own dog won the 9-12 puppy dog class in two different local all breed shows a while back but I would be the last person to tell anyone that that proves he has great GSD conformation. I happen to think that he does have but the results of that show were meaningless in determining it due to the particular judge and the size of the classes that he won. But I am sure that you are aware of that.*


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## gagsd

:headbang:

(I have always wanted to use this icon!)


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## Samba

You might this one from my private collection...









I so enjoy threads where information, ideas and opinions are shared. We can each use our brain in discernment regarding information. The fun seems to stop with the "you" types of communication challenging people personally gets going. That takes the discussion off track to personal issues where people try to explain the experiences that lead to their opinion... that is all fine and well. But to continue to challenge the "yous" after an explanation has been given seems a quick way to shut down interesting sharing for all members, JMO.


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## Xeph

> *I think that they might be able to be trained to do some things; but will not be expert in many of them and would be better replaced by dogs bred to have the built in characteristics to do the work!*


The point isn't to be an expert. That idea needs to be let go. These dogs are supposed to be GOOD at "everything", not great! Heck, Strauss pulled a dog sled when we were in WI!!



> *As far as the winning in the breed ring, what is a "Southeastern Regional USA conformation show"? Is that an AKC sanctioned show or one of the smaller dog organizations?*


USA would be the United Schutzhund Clubs of America. It is not easy for a working line to win in conformation in any of the venues. I'd say it's quite an accomplishment. Congrats, Cliff


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## gagsd

Samba said:


> You might this one from my private collection...


I do like yours better!


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## Samba

It is not easy to win any conformation nod with a working line dog. To breed a dog with working abilities and also to consider its conformation is a challenge. So much has to be considered and balanced when breeding a more whole or more complete dog. 

As to what conformation esteemed in various rings best suits a working bred animal, that is another conversation. But, to have the accomplishment of correctness to the dog acknowledged, good deal!


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## Billie

jocoyn said:


> Some comments
> 
> There was a statement that labs and goldens did not have as high drive. Well, labs are also bred for work and pet/show and while I have toyed with the idea of having a field lab for cadaver work, a working line GSD is about the limit of hyper that I can live with. I would not want one of these labs in my house. [but they can be awesome dogs] -


There are 'hyper' field labs(and show labs too...) There are also field labs that arent. I have 9 adult and 2 pup FIELD BRED Labs. All live in my home, NONE are hyper spazzes... well one, who just got the release to work, after 3 mos of TPLO recovery..... you have to talk with breeders see what their dogs temperements are like and go from there. If you want a field bred lab for cadaver work theres no reason why you cant have a good one with solid non spazz temperment. Especially if youre working her , she/he should be a very good companion for you, with plenty of work ethic. I've dealt with a S/R trainer and sold her dogs before, she has very good success with the field dogs. If you want a lab dont give up....
Not yet a shepherd owner but am looking...


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## powerMuscle123

not many people know why or how they came up with it, but it's the breed standard. i've heard rumors about german police not using german shepherd anymore due to the slope that might affect their working abilities and alot of them are switching over to malinois which have straight back. But personally i don't think it's natural for dogs to have a sloped back, when you look at a cheetah(fastest running animal), it's got a straight back.


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## Baillif

Dead thread arise! Arise!


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## selzer

Night of the Living Dead Threads! 

Is that what they mean by a Zombie Apocalypse?


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## LoveEcho

Baillif said:


> Dead thread arise! Arise!


Resurrected by misinformation! :lurking:


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