# Just picked up second puppy



## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Hi, im a new member and new gsd mom with loads of questions. I read a lot about how impossible and hard it is to raise two puppies but ill be doing it and if like to hear some advices from experience so i am succesfull:/

Older puppy joey is today 11 weeks. And our new puppy chandler is just over 7 weeks now. We intruduced them to each other and the bew one wasnt all happy and barked a bit. Scared joey away. I didnt know what to do if that happens again. 

New puppy will be sleeping in a big warm kennel and joey is in the house with us. I know they shohldnt be together so much so they dont bond with each other more than they do with us. 

Kind of nervous here!


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

The biggest piece of advice I have for 2 puppies is you have to make sure they are both trained separately and together. You want to know if you separate them (one has a vet appointment, the other one stays home, or you only want to bring one) they will behave, but also if you take them together they won't be causing mischief. You want them both to be confident in them self and not be reliant on the other one in situations.

Hopefully that helps a little, I've never had two puppies so close together though!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Why does one get to sleep in the house and not the other?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sounds like an idea situation for a "my dogs are fighting" thread in sixmonths to a year?? Doesn't have to happen I suppose but ...

It would be in your best interest to be "aware" of this.:
Leerburg | Raising Two Pups at a Time: Why It's a Bad Idea


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

We have two puppies now 9 and 10 months old. Wags comment about training together and apart is right on the money. This is the most difficult area we have. I would add that down-stay command is the most used in our household. Training this will help you with daily situations that you need silence and control. While preparing food, someone at the door or just I am on the phone and barking is not an option, down-stay is great. You are in for a lot of fun!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

If these are both males, and you really want to raise two puppies at one time and be successful, rehome one male puppy and get a female.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If these are both males, and you really want to raise two puppies at one time and be successful, rehome one male puppy and get a female.


Can I ask why? Not disagreeing, just curious


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Can I ask why? Not disagreeing, just curious


Once they mature and hit two years of age, there is a great likelihood that they will begin to fight and OP will be faced with rehoming one of them or living a life of crate and rotate.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Once they mature and hit two years of age, there is a great likelihood that they will begin to fight and OP will be faced with rehoming one of them or living a life of crate and rotate.


Ah, makes sense.


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

Curious why you chose to get two of the same sex? If you've read a lot about the difficulty of raising two puppies, surely you've seen the issues that are common in same-sex situations. I would try to return the younger male to the breeder, explain the situation and if I was insistent on raising two puppies... consider a female. JMO


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

AddieGirl said:


> Curious why you chose to get two of the same sex? If you've read a lot about the difficulty of raising two puppies, surely you've seen the issues that are common in same-sex situations. I would try to return the younger male to the breeder, explain the situation and if I was insistent on raising two puppies... consider a female. JMO


"Usually" two males are a safer bet but in this case, it's two puppies and closely related?? 

The best and safest advice is to" always have one well-trained dog before adding a second" and with GSD's I would say wait till the first one is at least 18 months old. No shortage of "fighting house, mates" on here and usually 12 to 18 months is when it tends to start.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

My fiancee raised 8 german shepherds sometimes littermates sometimes not. They all were fine with no fighting. But it was at least ten years ago 

Ideally we want both of them to stay in the kennel but trying to find a best way to not keep them together at the minute. Think you scared me a bit now. Yes i read a lot of disagreements but i read some success stories too so they encouraged me. Fiancee says itll be fine but i wanted to read some newly experiences. 

Are you saying there is no way this will work out?

Also feel like it was a bad idea to ask for ideas as i feel like i got told off by all of you now


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

No one told you off. Trust me if that happens you will know. 

People are just trying to figure out the situation. 

Things can work. Sure. Makes I think are easier than females. 

Good luck. But I would still bring them both inside, get crates, they can be separate that way when needed.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Strikker said:


> We have two puppies now 9 and 10 months old. Wags comment about training together and apart is right on the money. This is the most difficult area we have. I would add that down-stay command is the most used in our household. Training this will help you with daily situations that you need silence and control. While preparing food, someone at the door or just I am on the phone and barking is not an option, down-stay is great. You are in for a lot of fun!


Thank you. We can manage to get them trained seperately. Are your dogs both males? Have you had them since 8 week or have your just adopted them?


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

I have no experience with two puppies so close together, and so young, so I'm not going to say it can't or can be done. All I'm saying is it will take committment. I think it would be better however if you don't just keep one in the kennel and one in the house, maybe switch them out every once in a while. That way one doesn't bond to you more than the other one? It's just a suggestion. And if possible, bringing them both inside with crates would be ideal. But the kennel outside is still a good idea for when somebody needs a break.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

gsdsar said:


> No one told you off. Trust me if that happens you will know.
> 
> People are just trying to figure out the situation.
> 
> ...


I just want to do whats best for them and nervous anyway and reading negative comments didnt really help if you can understand. 

I might be making a big mistake leaving one in the kennel and one inside. Thats why i needed to hear ideas on that as well. We have a 4 acre fenced garden and when two dogs are older we will leave them both out there (of course they can come in the house and everything) but previous dogs have always been happier outside. And that is why i thought getting them used to sleeping in the kennel from puppyhood would be a good idea after them getting used to each other, i was going to get both of them to sleep there. I feel like im at a loss


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> My fiancee raised 8 german shepherds sometimes littermates sometimes not. They all were fine with no fighting. But it was at least ten years ago
> 
> Ideally we want both of them to stay in the kennel but trying to find a best way to not keep them together at the minute. Think you scared me a bit now. Yes i read a lot of disagreements but i read some success stories too so they encouraged me. Fiancee says itll be fine but i wanted to read some newly experiences.
> 
> ...


Your fiancé raised 8 German Shepherds until what age? If he kept them all, since it has only been ten years, are some still alive and together?

OP, how many success stories have you read where the dogs are two years or older and still living together without problems?

Nobody is telling you off. Many years ago I found myself taking in first one GSD pup, and then a month later, a second, a month apart in age. It was just simply a matter of circumstance, not a choice. Meantime a reputable breeder and trainer warned me of the magic two year number and I ignored it. My dogs were great for two years, everybody wanted to know how I got them to get along so well. But when the clocked chimed two years of age for them, it resulted in a ferocious fight, stitches for them, and ten years of crate and rotate for me. Maybe if I had been more experienced back then, I could have handled things differently, but still, it would have been a lot of work either way. If you feel that responses based on experience are "telling you off", you really may want to rethink your decision on keeping these two male puppies.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

I also wanted to ask something about them both having diarrhea after deworming but i dont know if i should start a new thread in another section?


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Thank you. We can manage to get them trained seperately. Are your dogs both males? Have you had them since 8 week or have your just adopted them?


We have had them since 8 weeks. One male and one female, we also have a 2 year old. It is a lot of work and commitment but worth every bit of it. We train them both together and apart as well as a three dog unit.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your fiancé raised 8 German Shepherds until what age? If he kept them all, since it has only been ten years, are some still alive and together?
> 
> OP, how many success stories have you read where the dogs are two years or older and still living together without problems?
> 
> Nobody is telling you off. Many years ago I found myself taking in first one GSD pup, and then a month later, a second, a month apart in age. It was just simply a matter of circumstance, not a choice. Meantime a reputable breeder and trainer warned me of the magic two year number and I ignored it. My dogs were great for two years, everybody wanted to know how I got them to get along so well. But when the clocked chimed two years of age for them, it resulted in a ferocious fight, stitches for them, and ten years of crate and rotate for me. Maybe if I had been more experienced back then, I could have handled things differently, but still, it would have been a lot of work either way. If you feel that responses based on experience are "telling you off", you really may want to rethink your decision on keeping these two male puppies.


The last two gsds he had grew up together and one died at age 7 from heart failure and the other one died at age 12 just before this christmas. But they had 6 months of difference in age. 

I should be open to both negative and positive comments here i know but being already nervous about it and then reading negativities sort of hit me. 

Thank you for your replies anyways


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Strikker said:


> We have had them since 8 weeks. One male and one female, we also have a 2 year old. It is a lot of work and commitment but worth every bit of it. We train them both together and apart as well as a three dog unit.


that is a great picture i really want to be able to make this work. Is your 2 year old male?

Also what exactly do you mean training them both together and apart? Shall i take them to training classes or get private one to one trainers for each seperately and then together?

Would it be ideal to take them to parks together?

Did you go through a fighting stage? That would upset me so much to see them fighting, after all we have got two of them so that they are not alone and friends


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> gsdsar said:
> 
> 
> > No one told you off. Trust me if that happens you will know.
> ...


It's ok to be overwhelmed. Totally get it!! Puppies are hard, 2 at the same, harder. 

My suggestion is to do everything in moderation. Let them play together, in moderation, switch out who is in the kennel and who is inside. Be even. Take both seperate to classes. But let them be together. If they are going to be asked to live together when they get older, get them used to it now. 

Take a deep breath, and ENJOY them. Take pictures. Learn them as individuals. Treat them as individuals. But let them have fun together with the entire family. Don't segregate all the time. 

Find a good trainer, one with GSD experience.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> The last two gsds he had grew up together and one died at age 7 from heart failure and the other one died at age 12 just before this christmas. But they had 6 months of difference in age.
> 
> I should be open to both negative and positive comments here i know but being already nervous about it and then reading negativities sort of hit me.
> 
> Thank you for your replies anyways


But what happened to the 8 GSDs? 

And were the last two both males?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> that is a great picture i really want to be able to make this work. Is your 2 year old male?
> 
> Also what exactly do you mean training them both together and apart? Shall i take them to training classes or get private one to one trainers for each seperately and then together?
> 
> ...


Strikker's two puppies were one male, one female, the same thing I recommended to you if you want to successfully raise two puppies. If you do the two puppies with opposite sexes, you should not have the fighting stage. There is no reason you can't successfully raise two opposite sex puppies together and do it successfully.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

gsdsar said:


> It's ok to be overwhelmed. Totally get it!! Puppies are hard, 2 at the same, harder.
> 
> My suggestion is to do everything in moderation. Let them play together, in moderation, switch out who is in the kennel and who is inside. Be even. Take both seperate to classes. But let them be together. If they are going to be asked to live together when they get older, get them used to it now.
> 
> ...


Hi, i really did take a deep breath after reading your reply. Thank you. I think ill be around asking lots of questions. Im a bit overly concerned about everything usually?


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> But what happened to the 8 GSDs?
> 
> And were the last two both males?


They died after a while? Some died young some died old I dont know what you mean by what happened to them.

Yes the last two were both males. But probably depends on the dogs personalities as well. 

Ok i get that strikes puppies were one male one female but he also mentioned there was a 2 year old third dog, i wanted to know his sex as well


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Good Luck! http://leerburg.com/pdf/raisingtwopuppies.pdf


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

I think by training them together and separate what is meant to happen is do both. I would start with taking them each to different obedience classes at a young age. Take one to obedience class, with the other one still working on obedience at home. Take them both, get them to learn how to work with you with distractions. Then you and your fiance (so you'll have enough handlers) take them to a juvenile class together. Get them both to work with distractions, including each other. Group classes should work for a while, but if you notice that you are having ANY sort of problem areas, get a personal trainer to come to your house, watch how you interact with the dogs, how they interact together. AS SOON as you notice ANY problems get a personal trainer, don't let anything progress past the beginning stages.

I believe you can do it, it will just be a LOT of hard work! Good luck =)


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> that is a great picture i really want to be able to make this work. Is your 2 year old male?
> 
> Also what exactly do you mean training them both together and apart? Shall i take them to training classes or get private one to one trainers for each seperately and then together?
> 
> ...


Our 2 year old is a female, she has completed a great deal of obedience training and that has been a big help with the puppies.
As for training, we train the puppies together in the same obedience class but separated from each other in the class. They really want to be together so this is a challenge. 
We also take them to stores and shopping malls and work them as a team starting and stopping, having them drop then come to fuss together. Then we change it up and I will keep the girls while my wife takes Rocco to the other end of the store. They know the others are there but we make them focus on us while we train. We also bring the girls at fuss while my wife releases Rocco to wander, The girls' job is to listen to me until I release them, then we reverse this and make Rocco fuss while the girls play. We also work meet and greet with all three at stores, we release only one at a time to meet a person if they ask and the others have to wait until released. 
I will also take all three for a working walk together where I give one command and expect all three to obey the command at the same time (we are getting better at this). They do not fight, although the GSD play can get a bit rough.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Once they mature and hit two years of age, there is a great likelihood that they will begin to fight and OP will be faced with rehoming one of them or living a life of crate and rotate.


Actually, it is a lot easier to manage two boys than it is to manage two girls. SSA with boys isn't commonly so bad that it requires rehoming or crate/rotate. 2 males AND bringing in a female could make things interesting.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Actually, it is a lot easier to manage two boys than it is to manage two girls. SSA with boys isn't commonly so bad that it requires rehoming or crate/rotate. 2 males AND bringing in a female could make things interesting.


Same sex aggression is horrible when it is between two males of the same age, and it is the norm, not an aberration. If they were separated by a year or two it would be a song and a dance.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I've raised young males together, and I have raised young females together. Hands down, males are easier. And most of the people I know in GSDs feel the same way. Bitches = stitches. Boys, not so much. Boys are noisy and you think they are going at it, and there is no blood on either. Boys will generally give it up, and the other boy generally will leave off then -- doesn't happen with bitches. Lots of people suggest letting boys figure it out, not so with girls.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

There is thread after thread on here about people having aggression between two same age males having to rehome one or crate and rotate. 

Many people on this forum keep bitches together with no problems. There was even a poll on here where the majority kept bitches together without problems. 

I can't speak for two bitches, never had mine fight, but the two males never let up, could not tolerate the scent or sight of each other. Many others on here have experienced the same. 

Just because I have not had my females fight and you have not had your same age males fight don't mean it won't happen and it don't mean that rehoming or crate and rotate won't be necessary.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

selzer said:


> I've raised young males together, and I have raised young females together. Hands down, males are easier. And most of the people I know in GSDs feel the same way. Bitches = stitches. Boys, not so much. Boys are noisy and you think they are going at it, and there is no blood on either. Boys will generally give it up, and the other boy generally will leave off then -- doesn't happen with bitches. Lots of people suggest letting boys figure it out, not so with girls.


Years back I saw someone post something along the lines, "males fight for breeding rights, females fight for breathing rights" I think there's truth to that. 

To the op, your situation is completely doable. Will you both be involved in training classes? My wife and I each worked our litter mates in seperate classes. As they got older we worked them together in the same class a few times. We mix things up at home, sometimes working together, sometimes not. We'd take one out for a walk or hike, then switch it up or take both. 

They were allowed to play together supervised. Ours slept in our room penned. This worked for us, both girls still view us as the greatest thing ever and no problems with being "doggy".


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Years back I saw someone post something along the lines, "males fight for breeding rights, females fight for breathing rights" I think there's truth to that.
> 
> To the op, your situation is completely doable. Will you both be involved in training classes? My wife and I each worked our litter mates in seperate classes. As they got older we worked them together in the same class a few times. We mix things up at home, sometimes working together, sometimes not. We'd take one out for a walk or hike, then switch it up or take both.
> 
> They were allowed to play together supervised. Ours slept in our room penned. This worked for us, both girls still view us as the greatest thing ever and no problems with being "doggy".


Good to hear that you have two female littermates that get along. How old are they now?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Our girls will be 6 in July. There have been a few bumps in the road, may still be a few more, but it's been worth it. To be fair, with both my wife and I heavily involved in all aspects of raising them it hasn't been that difficult. Our biggest challenge has been between us humans, agreeing/disagreeing on training methods  If the OP and their SO are both fully involved chances are they'll do fine.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

With two males the same age, you aren't talking so much same sex aggression as you are sibling rivalry. I don't know how much it affects females, but it is a serious problem with males.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...sic/165153-fighting-brothers.html#post2223287


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Who's more prone to fight, male dogs or female dogs?

http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_FightsBetweenDogs.php

don't let people discourage you, it can be done. SSA is also more likely if they aren't neutered.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have multiple males that are pretty much the same age--3.5, 3, 3, and 18 minths(the 6 yr old doesn't bother with anyone). The two females are 11.5 and 4. The males argue more. I just got the last one fixed, he has the more aggressive tendencies and I hope the neuter calms his butt down. We had a fight between 2 last week, no injuries to the dogs, but I did taks a bite meant for one of the dogs. The two have been separated since then and will be reintroduced slowly soon. It could be a lot worse. We don't have to many arguments considering the number of dogs, but every now and then there is one. I'm ok with that as long as no dogs get hurt, once they start getting hurt then things have to change so everyone stays safe.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

No responsible breeder would ever place 2 pups in the same home simultaneously,says it all.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

mburitica181 said:


> Who's more prone to fight, male dogs or female dogs?
> 
> Dog Tip: Fights Between Dogs -- How to Avoid and Stop Them
> 
> don't let people discourage you, it can be done. SSA is also more likely if they aren't neutered.


SSA is not the same as sibling rivalry between same age dogs of the same sex. Two male dogs of the same age raised in the same home can be wonderful with other male dogs, even other male dogs in the same home of different ages. Their rage and fight is only directed at the "sibling".


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> SSA is not the same as sibling rivalry between same age dogs of the same sex. Two male dogs of the same age raised in the same home can be wonderful with other male dogs, even other male dogs in the same home of different ages. Their rage and fight is only directed at the "sibling".


Along these lines, is sibling rivalry as prevalent between littermates of opposite sex?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It happens but it is not that common between pups of opposite sex.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lrodptl said:


> No responsible breeder would ever place 2 pups in the same home simultaneously,says it all.


Actually, since one pup is 11 weeks and the other 7 weeks, they might be from different breeders. And neither have been aware of the fact that the op had or intended to get another puppy. 

Happens.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Nigel said:


> Years back I saw someone post something along the lines, "males fight for breeding rights, females fight for breathing rights" I think there's truth to that.
> 
> To the op, your situation is completely doable. Will you both be involved in training classes? My wife and I each worked our litter mates in seperate classes. As they got older we worked them together in the same class a few times. We mix things up at home, sometimes working together, sometimes not. We'd take one out for a walk or hike, then switch it up or take both.
> 
> They were allowed to play together supervised. Ours slept in our room penned. This worked for us, both girls still view us as the greatest thing ever and no problems with being "doggy".


I have had mutiple dogs my whole life, and the main problems have always been between two females. Right now I have an 8 year old female frenchie and an extremely old female pug, and two old male frenchies, which is why I will not be getting any more dogs until the two old females have gone to the Bridge! They do not get along at all, and are never left alone together. My male dogs may grouse at each other occassionally, but those girls mean business!


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

selzer said:


> Actually, since one pup is 11 weeks and the other 7 weeks, they might be from different breeders. And neither have been aware of the fact that the op had or intended to get another puppy.
> 
> Happens.


I was only making the point that responsible breeders know the dangers of 2 puppy homes and won't be complicit so people get around that by going to 2 different breeders.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Nigel said:


> Years back I saw someone post something along the lines, "males fight for breeding rights, females fight for breathing rights" I think there's truth to that.
> 
> To the op, your situation is completely doable. Will you both be involved in training classes? My wife and I each worked our litter mates in seperate classes. As they got older we worked them together in the same class a few times. We mix things up at home, sometimes working together, sometimes not. We'd take one out for a walk or hike, then switch it up or take both.
> 
> They were allowed to play together supervised. Ours slept in our room penned. This worked for us, both girls still view us as the greatest thing ever and no problems with being "doggy".


Hi, yes we both will be attending classes luckily there are weekend classes. 

So far with two of these pups, joey the older one keeps barking at the new one and trying to nip and corner. Little one sometimes stands up for himself and growls and bites. Im trying to understand how much of it is playing /fighting. Not letting them alone if we are not present. Sometimes putting one in penned kennel and the other is outside and they are smelling each other and running. 

How old are your dogs now?

When they get used to each other we thought in the kennel one would be in the crate and one would be loose at night (day time usually im present and will be doing walkings and plays seperate or together)

At least this is what my fiance said he was doing with the last two boys he had. And after a while they were both loose day and night in the garden. Just in the kennel for sleeping.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

mburitica181 said:


> Who's more prone to fight, male dogs or female dogs?
> 
> Dog Tip: Fights Between Dogs -- How to Avoid and Stop Them
> 
> don't let people discourage you, it can be done. SSA is also more likely if they aren't neutered.


As wer not thinking of breeding we can get them neutered. Though i read some saying it doesnt make a difference and read some saying it makes it worse. Might completely depend on the dogs as well


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> SSA is not the same as sibling rivalry between same age dogs of the same sex. Two male dogs of the same age raised in the same home can be wonderful with other male dogs, even other male dogs in the same home of different ages. Their rage and fight is only directed at the "sibling".


Our dogs are not related. Different breeders. One 11 weeks old. One 8 weeks old just now


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

lrodptl said:


> I was only making the point that responsible breeders know the dangers of 2 puppy homes and won't be complicit so people get around that by going to 2 different breeders.


I dont know but both breeders have over ten dogs. Some siblings some mom and daughter/son. They dont fight and they are all together all the time. So i dont think neither of the breeders would mind as long as we are aware of the possible problems, which we are anf thats the reason we are asking around and reading trying to do the best we can to minimize the chances of bad things happening in the future.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> and thats the reason we are asking around and reading trying to do the best we can to minimize the chances of bad things happening in the future.


Like the other experienced people have told you, it *MIGHT* work out, but you probably wouldn't know until they were around 18 months old or so. It's much easier to take the pup back to the breeder now or re-home. Our girl was extremely dog friendly until we got the 2nd pup when she was 18 months old. It went downhill from there with aggression to other dogs. 

Older dogs are harder to place than puppies. Best to choose with your head, not your heart!

Good luck with your choice.
Moms


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Our dogs are not related. Different breeders. One 11 weeks old. One 8 weeks old just now


When they turn two, relations and / or a three week age difference will not matter, hierarchy will between two matched dogs will.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

We have 19 month old male littermates. We would not be talked out of it. The keys are: 1) constant supervision, 2) training separate and together, 3) make an effort to learn their signals and prevent the problems instead of correcting after it happens. They must be managed all the time and it is extremely time consuming; 4) exercise to exhaustion. Their energy should be channeled.
Our boys have had a few significant problems but are doing well these days. We rarely leave them unsupervised ( Left them a few hours a couple of times in December and they were good. They train both separately and together. For a while they were in two separate obedience classes ( 4 classes a week for us). We have involved a behaviorist for evaluation/ advice. We have two petsitters who both have GSD experience and a strong, confident dog handlers. Our dogs were crate trained ( lfesaver during puppyhood). Now we rely on place command and they go to their beds (in our living room) and a second set of beds in our bedroom. 
Thanks to one of the members of this forum, we had our boys evaluated by an awesome GSD trainer and will begin nose work classes tomorrow. 
Keep them engaged in training and play and don't trust them. We know we still have some challenging times ahead. We haven't made a final decision about neutering. Good luck!!!!!!


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

Jake and Elwood said:


> We have 19 month old male littermates. We would not be talked out of it. The keys are: 1) constant supervision, 2) training separate and together, 3) make an effort to learn their signals and prevent the problems instead of correcting after it happens. They must be managed all the time and it is extremely time consuming; 4) exercise to exhaustion. Their energy should be channeled.
> Our boys have had a few significant problems but are doing well these days. We rarely leave them unsupervised ( Left them a few hours a couple of times in December and they were good. They train both separately and together. For a while they were in two separate obedience classes ( 4 classes a week for us). We have involved a behaviorist for evaluation/ advice. We have two petsitters who both have GSD experience and a strong, confident dog handlers. Our dogs were crate trained ( lfesaver during puppyhood). Now we rely on place command and they go to their beds (in our living room) and a second set of beds in our bedroom.
> Thanks to one of the members of this forum, we had our boys evaluated by an awesome GSD trainer and will begin nose work classes tomorrow.
> Keep them engaged in training and play and don't trust them. We know we still have some challenging times ahead. We haven't made a final decision about neutering. Good luck!!!!!!



J and E, 
Thank you for your post. You set an exceptional criteria for success. I heard doom and gloom forecasts when we added to our pack. I have found if you are willing to put in the time and effort the rewards are great. Good to hear others have had success!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jake and Elwood said:


> We have 19 month old male littermates. We would not be talked out of it. The keys are: 1) constant supervision, 2) training separate and together, 3) make an effort to learn their signals and prevent the problems instead of correcting after it happens. They must be managed all the time and it is extremely time consuming; 4) exercise to exhaustion. Their energy should be channeled.
> Our boys have had a few significant problems but are doing well these days. We rarely leave them unsupervised ( Left them a few hours a couple of times in December and they were good. They train both separately and together. For a while they were in two separate obedience classes ( 4 classes a week for us). We have involved a behaviorist for evaluation/ advice. We have two petsitters who both have GSD experience and a strong, confident dog handlers. Our dogs were crate trained ( lfesaver during puppyhood). Now we rely on place command and they go to their beds (in our living room) and a second set of beds in our bedroom.
> Thanks to one of the members of this forum, we had our boys evaluated by an awesome GSD trainer and will begin nose work classes tomorrow.
> Keep them engaged in training and play and don't trust them. We know we still have some challenging times ahead. We haven't made a final decision about neutering. Good luck!!!!!!


I wish you continued success but your dogs are young yet. 

I had no aggression problems whatsoever with my two males when I had them, they were the best of friends. It wasn't until they turned two and it was like a switch flipped, that sudden and unexpected, except for a breeder's warning.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Jake and Elwood said:


> We have 19 month old male littermates. We would not be talked out of it. The keys are: 1) constant supervision, 2) training separate and together, 3) make an effort to learn their signals and prevent the problems instead of correcting after it happens. They must be managed all the time and it is extremely time consuming; 4) exercise to exhaustion. Their energy should be channeled.
> Our boys have had a few significant problems but are doing well these days. We rarely leave them unsupervised ( Left them a few hours a couple of times in December and they were good. They train both separately and together. For a while they were in two separate obedience classes ( 4 classes a week for us). We have involved a behaviorist for evaluation/ advice. We have two petsitters who both have GSD experience and a strong, confident dog handlers. Our dogs were crate trained ( lfesaver during puppyhood). Now we rely on place command and they go to their beds (in our living room) and a second set of beds in our bedroom.
> Thanks to one of the members of this forum, we had our boys evaluated by an awesome GSD trainer and will begin nose work classes tomorrow.
> Keep them engaged in training and play and don't trust them. We know we still have some challenging times ahead. We haven't made a final decision about neutering. Good luck!!!!!!


Most people can't or won't put in that effort and your story is not complete yet. As for neutering,I have one neutered male and 1 intact,it made no difference. Neutering may stop sex based aggression,but not much else.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> I dont know but both breeders have over ten dogs. Some siblings some mom and daughter/son. They dont fight and they are all together all the time. So i dont think neither of the breeders would mind as long as we are aware of the possible problems, which we are anf thats the reason we are asking around and reading trying to do the best we can to minimize the chances of bad things happening in the future.


Different dynamic between 2 or among 3+.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

We know our story isn't complete ( acknowledged in my previous post). We have worked hard but we are also fortunate that our boys have very different prey drives and personalities. Hawkeye is intense and serious and bossy at times. Trapper has been described as ' dope smoking, always-on-vacation personality. We worry about the day Trapper decides he wants to be boss. 
We would never recommend littermates and we will never do it again. However, if Joey and Chandler are committed to keeping both pups, they will need realistic advice and tools to succeed, not criticism that serves no purposes the this stage. 
I am extremely grateful to the members of the forum who have provided valuable advice and recommendations.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jake and Elwood said:


> We know our story isn't complete ( acknowledged in my previous post). We have worked hard but we are also fortunate that our boys have very different prey drives and personalities. Hawkeye is intense and serious and bossy at times. Trapper has been described as ' dope smoking, always-on-vacation personality. We worry about the day Trapper decides he wants to be boss.
> We would never recommend littermates and we will never do it again. However, if Joey and Chandler are committed to keeping both pups, they will need realistic advice and tools to succeed, not criticism that serves no purposes the this stage.
> I am extremely grateful to the members of the forum who have provided valuable advice and recommendations.


I have not seen anybody criticize them. I have only seen where people have tried to impress upon them the seriousness of potential future problems and advised if they wanted two or more dogs, that there are other options.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Jake and Elwood said:


> We know our story isn't complete ( acknowledged in my previous post). We have worked hard but we are also fortunate that our boys have very different prey drives and personalities. Hawkeye is intense and serious and bossy at times. Trapper has been described as ' dope smoking, always-on-vacation personality. We worry about the day Trapper decides he wants to be boss.
> We would never recommend littermates and we will never do it again. However, if Joey and Chandler are committed to keeping both pups, they will need realistic advice and tools to succeed, not criticism that serves no purposes the this stage.
> I am extremely grateful to the members of the forum who have provided valuable advice and recommendations.


Good luck to you and i hope you never have agression problems. We are keeping them and will try whatever is necessary to be succesful in bringing up two males that get along well. 

I needed some advice- even if not an advice maybe some real life experiences and how to solve issues. -hope to never have them-


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## DaisyDaws (Feb 28, 2015)

To the OP, I'm just curious why you decided on having the 2 pups so close together, no judgement at all. Our male is a year now, and has been so much work I can't imagine having 2! I do want another, probably a female and only once he is trained and more manageable. I do wish you the best of luck! I'm sure they will be able to tire each other out playing, that would certainly be helpful!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Have the pups played together happily? Or is there still some standoff/barking behavior?


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have not seen anybody criticize them. I have only seen where people have tried to impress upon them the seriousness of potential future problems and advised if they wanted two or more dogs, that there are other options.


Exactly.


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

lrodptl said:


> Different dynamic between 2 or among 3+.


Irodptl,
Explain? Since I am in the 3+. I did not see a great change with mine when we went to 3.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Strikker said:


> Irodptl,
> Explain? Since I am in the 3+. I did not see a great change with mine when we went to 3.




Adding a Third Dog to the Family:
I also do not recommend adding a 3rd dog to a 
family, unless the people fully understand the 
implications of pack behavior. In other words, if 
your plan is to add a male pup and not keep the 
dog separated from the other dogs when you are 
not with the dogs, then do not do it. 
The new pup is going to be low man in the pack 
order and the other dogs are going to remind 
him of this all the time. They may get along 
fine, but one is always going to be the alpha 
dog. When a third puppy is added to this pack 
it will always be low man, and the middle dog 
will be all too quick to remind it of that. This will 
continue until the pup is 18 months to 30 months 
old and at that point many dogs that have lived 
together will start to fight. Leerburg


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

lrodptl said:


> Adding a Third Dog to the Family:
> I also do not recommend adding a 3rd dog to a
> family, unless the people fully understand the
> implications of pack behavior. In other words, if
> ...


Yep, three or more is a pack.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yep, three or more is a pack.


They say the pack instinct ramps up with 2 and then up another notch with 3. Everything looks like a big success til someone hits 18 months to 3 years old and then the next and then the next. I believe it takes a huge amount of attention and more than a little luck.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

lrodptl said:


> They say the pack instinct ramps up with 2 and then up another notch with 3. Everything looks like a big success til someone hits 18 months to 3 years old and then the next and then the next. I believe it takes a huge amount of attention and more than a little luck.


They absolutely feed off of each other. I think a lot depends on the individual dogs/packs. I have had intact packs that I would toss outside and let them run in the yard unsupervised without any problems, other packs, not so much.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Nigel said:


> Have the pups played together happily? Or is there still some standoff/barking behavior?


I dont think they are happy with each other nindont know when to interfere and whrn to just let them stop on their own. Here are two videos. Hope people now dont start saying "oh we tald you etc" i still think we can manage but just need double the patience and will. None of them has been to socialization classes or anything yet. The older ones been biting us so bad that i think now ge thinks biting is ok. He didnt get the bite inhibition thing at all. And this pisses the new one off. 

Any advice on how/when to butt in when they are fighting/playing will be appreciated. 

https://youtu.be/5RZFjGjbMP8

https://youtu.be/DR0Kwwaaa3A


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> I dont think they are happy with each other nindont know when to interfere and whrn to just let them stop on their own. Here are two videos. Hope people now dont start saying "oh we tald you etc" i still think we can manage but just need double the patience and will. None of them has been to socialization classes or anything yet. The older ones been biting us so bad that i think now ge thinks biting is ok. He didnt get the bite inhibition thing at all. And this pisses the new one off.
> 
> Any advice on how/when to butt in when they are fighting/playing will be appreciated.
> 
> ...


I think in the first video, just when the smaller puppy gets cornered is when I'd step in, make sure he has a sure way out. You don't want him to feel trapped.

The second video seems fine, just puppy play.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Wags said:


> I think in the first video, just when the smaller puppy gets cornered is when I'd step in, make sure he has a sure way out. You don't want him to feel trapped.
> 
> The second video seems fine, just puppy play.


I try to step in when the little one yelps. Or when either of them growls. I say no to the one thats being inappropriate but as i hold that one the other ones jumping on him ? I dont want to give them a wrong message or something whrn breaking up and saying no


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

I saw little to worry about in the videos. I agree about making sure the younger puppy can escape. As for the biting, the puppies will tell each other when enough is enough. You just need to be around to help them or step in when you feel it is needed. Remember, it is your house and they have to follow your rules. We use the word "Enough" when the play gets too much. The puppies have learned that means stop whatever you are doing. Hope this helps!


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> I try to step in when the little one yelps. Or when either of them growls. I say no to the one thats being inappropriate but as i hold that one the other ones jumping on him ? I dont want to give them a wrong message or something whrn breaking up and saying no


One of them yelping is how the other one learns that they are biting too hard, and it may not be after 1 bite, or after 2 bites, or even after 10 that they learn. It may be after 100, but that's how puppies communicate. And growling is just telling the other one that they are done, so let one grow, let the other one figure out what that means, so later they know, hey they are growling, I need to leave them alone.

I think perhaps some people on here got you too worried about them and made you worry that they'll never get along, so now you are freaking out, they are just puppies being puppies. Like I said, try to make sure they both have a way out, and neither one of them is cornered, that will cause things to escalate from play fighting to real fighting.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Wags said:


> One of them yelping is how the other one learns that they are biting too hard, and it may not be after 1 bite, or after 2 bites, or even after 10 that they learn. It may be after 100, but that's how puppies communicate. And growling is just telling the other one that they are done, so let one grow, let the other one figure out what that means, so later they know, hey they are growling, I need to leave them alone.
> 
> I think perhaps some people on here got you too worried about them and made you worry that they'll never get along, so now you are freaking out, they are just puppies being puppies. Like I said, try to make sure they both have a way out, and neither one of them is cornered, that will cause things to escalate from play fighting to real fighting.


Thank you. Im a paro anyways i think some comments scared me. They might be right but whenever they bark and growl now i panic


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Strikker said:


> I saw little to worry about in the videos. I agree about making sure the younger puppy can escape. As for the biting, the puppies will tell each other when enough is enough. You just need to be around to help them or step in when you feel it is needed. Remember, it is your house and they have to follow your rules. We use the word "Enough" when the play gets too much. The puppies have learned that means stop whatever you are doing. Hope this helps!


Ill try saying enough too. I think im getting a bit stressed. Which i dont think would help the puppies


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Thank you. Im a paro anyways i think some comments scared me. They might be right but whenever they bark and growl now i panic


The comments weren't there to scare you. The comments were made by experienced people to help you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Thank you. Im a paro anyways i think some comments scared me. They might be right but whenever they bark and growl now i panic


You better get over that, or the dogs will be ruling the roost. If you are afraid of growls what will be next?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> You better get over that, or the dogs will be ruling the roost. If you are afraid of growls what will be next?


My thoughts were what is going to happen when these are 90 pound dogs that begin to challenge.


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Ill try saying enough too. I think im getting a bit stressed. Which i dont think would help the puppies


My guess is you are doing just fine with the puppies. You will learn something new about them everyday. Each puppy is different and there is really no way to tell you exactly how to work with them, but it sounds like you are on the right track. Any day you want to really stress out I will post a video of my 3 dogs playing, you will look at yours and think they are quite the little angels


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## Sheera67 (Mar 29, 2015)

Looking at the videos ...... I think you'll be fine , in fact I'm sure your going to have so much fun with them .

There is absolutely nothing in they videos that should cause you to doubt that you have made the right decision. 

Please enjoy them and they will reward you back many many times .

I had 2 males a long time ago and apart from little harmless 2 second arguments between them they grew up to be so thing special , and the bond between them and me was unbelievable 


Have fun and enjoy !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Sheera67 said:


> Looking at the videos ...... I think you'll be fine , in fact I'm sure your going to have so much fun with them .
> 
> There is absolutely nothing in they videos that should cause you to doubt that you have made the right decision.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Hope i can say the same years later


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The comments weren't there to scare you. The comments were made by experienced people to help you.


Thanks but i needed advice on "how to raise them together succesfully". Unfortunately suggesting that they will be monsters and i should urgently rehome one has not helped me at all. What you could have said is " ive had bad experience with two males so i cant really suggest anything but good luck" that would have been ok.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Thanks but i needed advice on "how to raise them together succesfully". Unfortunately suggesting that they will be monsters and i should urgently rehome one has not helped me at all. What you could have said is " ive had bad experience with two males so i cant really suggest anything but good luck" that would have been ok.


Nobody suggested your dogs will be monsters or that you should urgently rehome one. People merely pointed out that dogs are not simply "how you raise and train them" and that other factors such as genetics, hormones, and maturity are major players in the scenario. Although there are steps you can take in how you raise them, there is little that can be done about these other factors.

It would be dishonest of me to state that only I had problems with two males raised together the same age when it is the rule and not the exception. You asked for advice on how you can best raise two dogs and you were given plenty of good advice. 

There have been multiple posts and references on this thread by breeders and experienced people advising you to rethink your methods. For you to insinuate that my experience was the exception, despite all the advice you have been given on this thread, is not quite accurate.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Nobody suggested your dogs will be monsters or that you should urgently rehome one. People merely pointed out that dogs are not simply "how you raise and train them" and that other factors such as genetics, hormones, and maturity are major players in the scenario. Although there are steps you can take in how you raise them, there is little that can be done about these other factors.
> 
> It would be dishonest of me to state that only I had problems with two males raised together the same age *when it is the rule and not the exception*. You asked for advice on how you can best raise two dogs and you were given plenty of good advice.
> 
> There have been multiple posts and references on this thread by breeders and experienced people advising you to rethink your methods. For you to insinuate that my experience was the exception, despite all the advice you have been given on this thread, is not quite accurate.


 I am wondering who makes these rules? I would only agree that two females close in age and power are likely to be more than most owners can manage. Two males, not so much. Most owners can handle two males without resorting to crate/rotate with regard to SSA. Littermate syndrome may be something different altogether, and I wouldn't know anything about that. I have raised more littermates together than I want to admit, and I have not had any of those problems. Let's see, I think I counted 8 sets of littermates, one of the being two males 10 days apart so not exactly littermates. And I have friends who have littermates who are males who are not seeing these issues, are not crating and rotating, are not kenneling their dogs, nor are they neutering them young.

When you do have dogs close together, there is one thing that no training or management can help, and that is, that barring some tragedy, they will grow old together, and geriatric vet bills together, and unfortunately, when one goes, the other is often so lost that he tends to follow soon after.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It is not about same sex aggression, that has already been established.

Today you 'would only agree that two females close in age are likely to be more than most owners can manage', does that include you? In many threads in the past, you post oh so very differently like when one of your females nailed you during a fight and it took you over a year to recover, but that is all forgotten now. Just how many windows did your dog break out trying to get to your other dog to fight? How many crates were destroyed? Refresh my memory please, but wasn't it you that posted that you finally had to put one dog outside to separate them, something happened, and the poor dog was getting shocked the entire time you were away at work? From your past posts you would have people thinking that the wrath of God is kinder than owning two female German Shepherds, regardless of age.

It has already been established that this is about littermate syndrome between two males, and links were provided where other respected breeders, even one on this site, have point blank posted: "One day it will be the fight to end all fights.", but you choose to ignore other people's experiences, even breeders, and even your own past posts. This is not fair to OP.

No where did I say anything about neutering dogs, young or not. If you did a little search of this website alone, you will find many threads of male littermates, neutered, not neutered, one neutered, one intact, but it had little bearing on the issue or stopping the fighting. 

Too many reputable breeders disagree with you. It doesn't mean that all male littermates will fight, but it does mean that the likelihood is good.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You have two puppies, your fiancé has GSD experience, you are keeping the puppies. Please don't take the suggestions the wrong way. If you train the dogs extremely well, you can avoid fights by not letting it get to that point. It might mean separating them when you are away. You may have to leash them and go through commands if they start getting pushy with one another later on. Or, more likely, one will become the Alpha and the other will accept that and not challenge. SSA happens when one dog starts challenging the other for position. It might not ever happen. As they get older, the age difference won't matter, with a good trainer, you can tell which one is the Alpha and you can encourage that. Feed the Alpha first. Let the Alpha go through doors first. The Alpha isn't the most aggressive or pushiest, it's the most confident. That's why a good trainer should help you. I have a pushy female, and people think she is Alpha. She never has been and we know that because we can read the signs. If you keep one inside that one will want to become the Alpha and it might not be the right choice, so keep both inside.

I saw nothing wrong with their play. That is normal and good for them, especially learning bite inhibition from one another.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is not about same sex aggression, that has already been established.
> 
> Today you 'would only agree that two females close in age are likely to be more than most owners can manage', does that include you? In many threads in the past, you post oh so very differently like when one of your females nailed you during a fight and it took you over a year to recover, but that is all forgotten now. Just how many windows did your dog break out trying to get to your other dog to fight? How many crates were destroyed? Refresh my memory please, but wasn't it you that posted that you finally had to put one dog outside to separate them, something happened, and the poor dog was getting shocked the entire time you were away at work? From your past posts you would have people thinking that the wrath of God is kinder than owning two female German Shepherds, regardless of age.
> 
> ...


Yep, two major bitch fights, one between my brother's bitch who lived with me at the time, and mine, 12 years ago or so, and the last bite wound was about 6-7 years ago, actually between a dog and a bitch fighting. No more fights with injuries to report. 

And yes, that working line bitch of my brothers went through my window three times. LOL! Many things that bitch did, and yes she was the one that I put outside until I completed the kennel for both bitch's safety.

I currently have more than multiple bitches, and multiple dogs, all intact, plus one spayed female, and one neutered dog. I do know a tiny little bit about having dogs. 3 of my intact bitches do live in the same kennel area, so I have it working with intact females as well, but it isn't the rule. With the boys, it is easy. No problem keeping boys from killing each other.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Yep, two major bitch fights, one between my brother's bitch who lived with me at the time, and mine, 12 years ago or so, and the last bite wound was about 6-7 years ago, actually between a dog and a bitch fighting. No more fights with injuries to report.
> 
> And yes, that working line bitch of my brothers went through my window three times. LOL! Many things that bitch did, and yes she was the one that I put outside until I completed the kennel for both bitch's safety.
> 
> * I currently have more than multiple bitches, and multiple dogs, all intact, plus one spayed female, and one neutered dog. I do know a tiny little bit about having dogs. 3 of my intact bitches do live in the same kennel area, so I have it working with intact females as well, but it isn't the rule. With the boys, it is easy. No problem keeping boys from killing each other*.


Many people on here have multiple bitches, and multiple dogs, all intact, have owned them for years. Most do know a tiny bit about having dogs too. Many keep them all in the house. You keep three bitches kenneled in the same are now? Good luck with that, I seriously mean it. You have no problem keeping boys from killing each other? Good for you, most don't have that problem either. But also keeping two same age males that were raised together from serious dog fights? Well, good luck with that too, from what is read on this forum, other GSD forums, BREEDER'S recommendations, and from other people's experiences, that is not the rule but the exception, but you don't really mention serious dog fighting, just them trying to kill each other. There is a difference you know. I still wouldn't advise that either or is a walk in the park.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh well ... "OP" you have two puppies, you know the pitfalls and you are determined to get it right.,

I seem to be posting this a lot as of late, but if you go with the one inside and one outside thing?? Your a "prime candidate" for this situation, scroll down and see "Rank Drive":
(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )

GSD's apparently are High-Rank drive dogs, the bullies (and such) that I was familiar with, as it turns out were not. If you go forward with "your" inside/outside plan, you "could" be heading for trouble?? 

Just to be "anal" ... I will say that the one inside, one outside thing can be done but you are going to need to be even better at "management, structure and leadership." Your margin for error will be smaller still!


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> You have two puppies, your fiancé has GSD experience, you are keeping the puppies. Please don't take the suggestions the wrong way. If you train the dogs extremely well, you can avoid fights by not letting it get to that point. It might mean separating them when you are away. You may have to leash them and go through commands if they start getting pushy with one another later on. Or, more likely, one will become the Alpha and the other will accept that and not challenge. SSA happens when one dog starts challenging the other for position. It might not ever happen. As they get older, the age difference won't matter, with a good trainer, you can tell which one is the Alpha and you can encourage that. Feed the Alpha first. Let the Alpha go through doors first. The Alpha isn't the most aggressive or pushiest, it's the most confident. That's why a good trainer should help you. I have a pushy female, and people think she is Alpha. She never has been and we know that because we can read the signs. If you keep one inside that one will want to become the Alpha and it might not be the right choice, so keep both inside.
> 
> I saw nothing wrong with their play. That is normal and good for them, especially learning bite inhibition from one another.


Thank you for your reply. Do you think there is any way that i can figure out which one is more linely to be the alpha when they are older? Would they be dropping any hints at this age right now? Just because im curious, we will get them trained and find out who is alpha. 

Fiance says regarding the last two he had, one was so energetic and jumpy and bossy that everyone would think that he is the ruler but when the other one barks or growls once, he would just leave and shut up


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

selzer said:


> Yep, two major bitch fights, one between my brother's bitch who lived with me at the time, and mine, 12 years ago or so, and the last bite wound was about 6-7 years ago, actually between a dog and a bitch fighting. No more fights with injuries to report.
> 
> And yes, that working line bitch of my brothers went through my window three times. LOL! Many things that bitch did, and yes she was the one that I put outside until I completed the kennel for both bitch's safety.
> 
> I currently have more than multiple bitches, and multiple dogs, all intact, plus one spayed female, and one neutered dog. I do know a tiny little bit about having dogs. 3 of my intact bitches do live in the same kennel area, so I have it working with intact females as well, but it isn't the rule. With the boys, it is easy. No problem keeping boys from killing each other.


We want them to stay in the same area (kennel) together maybe without being crated for when they are older. But right now we thought this and maybe you could give me another idea.

I have been home til now and never left them alone at all. Next tuesday night we will be going out and cant take the dogs. Their kennel is big (you can fit one king size double bed and a big wardrobe and a single bed and a freezer? -just to give you an idea as im horrible with measurements) at the moment little one is in the kennel and in his XL crate, but he is not trapped in the crate as we surrounded the crate with some pen. So he toilets in the pen bit and sleeps in the crate. And not allowed in the rest of the kennel when alone. 
Thought we could leave the older one in the kennel as well but without a crate so he would be free in the kennel and go to the little ones crate and touch and smell each other through the bars. Or the other choice is we will put the older one in the kennel WITH his crate as well. 

We have a cam monitor to watch them in the kennel too. 

I just cant figure what the best way would be?

Little one is already used to being alone in the kennel for the night. But the older ones too attached to me (made a mistake there) and never stayed in the kennel


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I wouldn't ever kennel them together. Kennel them both separated, let the older one get used to it. Keep things equal like that. Don't think in terms of one being alpha, they follow your rules and the routine you establish. 

Pretty soon the playing may turn serious. It may not, but I'd rather just limit it and get them used to getting their fun time with me then with each other so that it helps lessen their focus on each other while they grow up.

We've always found it easier to have it along the lines of one dog is mine, one is my wife's for the training. Obedience is obedience, they've always learned to obey both of us but it was just easier, for me anyway, to concentrate on one. That was more fun and less work for us.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Many people on here have multiple bitches, and multiple dogs, all intact, have owned them for years. Most do know a tiny bit about having dogs too. Many keep them all in the house. You keep three bitches kenneled in the same are now? Good luck with that, I seriously mean it. You have no problem keeping boys from killing each other? Good for you, most don't have that problem either. But also keeping two same age males that were raised together from serious dog fights? Well, good luck with that too, from what is read on this forum, other GSD forums, BREEDER'S recommendations, and from other people's experiences, that is not the rule but the exception, but you don't really mention serious dog fighting, just them trying to kill each other. There is a difference you know. I still wouldn't advise that either or is a walk in the park.


 Killing each other is a major dog fight. I am talking about blood, stitches, drains, and the only reason to crate and rotate for life after that. 

I have never had to crate and rotate boys. Only bitches. Most of the people I know have only had to do this with bitches. Some have neutered one or both males. But most of the issues were more grousing and grumping, and not a real fight at all.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

There is no doubt in my mind that Apollo would have killed Batman. They are both boys and their fight was by far the worse fight ever in my house. It was 10 times worse then any female/female fight I've had. 

It completely depends on the dogs in question, but to say it's definitely going to happen or not going to happen is not true for all dogs, no matter what the sex.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Killing each other is a major dog fight. I am talking about blood, stitches, drains, and the only reason to crate and rotate for life after that.
> 
> I have never had to crate and rotate boys. Only bitches. Most of the people I know have only had to do this with bitches. Some have neutered one or both males. But most of the issues were more grousing and grumping, and not a real fight at all.


Most reputable breeders and experienced people don't recommend it, for males or females. They advise opposite sex puppies if somebody has their heart set on two. Dogs don't have to kill each other for the fight to be considered a major dog fight. For most people, dogs that want nothing but to fight are a reason for crate and rotate, and nobody is talking grousing and grumping.

Personally, I have owned multiple intact females with multiple intact males and never never never had a female to female issue. The same can be said with everybody I know that has multiple females, no fights, no problems. I can't say the same about two same aged males raised together. You have had the exact opposite experience. For me to tell people based on my experience, and that of every body that I know that has multiple females, to go ahead and get two female pups while ignoring the recommendations of breeders and other experienced people would be reckless and irresponsible. The same can be said about somebody who would recommend raising two male pups together regardless of what other well known, reputable breeders have to say as well as other people's personal experience.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe its the working line thing. Maybe they tend to have more trouble with littermate syndrome and male SSA. I wonder if it is more prevalent in some lines than others.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Maybe its the working line thing. Maybe they tend to have more trouble with littermate syndrome and male SSA. I wonder if it is more prevalent in some lines than others.


My two males back then were of unknown backgrounds and I highly doubt they were workingline, but then again, the lines weren't so distinct back then. The other people that I knew that had same age males that fought did not necessarily own GSDs.

Not to mention threads and breeders on here, if you google aggression between siblings you will find site after site that states it is a problem.

Somebody posted Leerburg who says this (FWIW): 

"All dogs have a very strong pack instinct. The more dogs in the pact, the stronger the instinct becomes. Raising 2 dogs together means an elevated pack drive, raising 3 dogs means an even higher pack drive.

Pack drive issues mean RANK ISSUES within the pack. Establishing RANK can often mean dog fights. Don't kid yourself that your 5 pound little lap dog will not fight with its 5 pound litter mate. This can become a big deal. This means dog fights when the dogs reach maturity (18 to 30 months of age)."

*Note he did not make a distinction between males or females.

Also, FWIW, it was a reputable dog breeder of white German Shepherds of Hollywood fame back in the 70s that was the one that first informed me of "aggression between siblings", so it evidently is nothing new, and her dogs certainly weren't working line, at least not in protection venues.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, I am discussing German Shepherds in particular and many GSD breeders agree with "Bitches = Stitches" and "Dogs fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for breathing rights." I have separated bitches fighting for breathing rights. I have also separated dogs fighting for breeding rights -- no contest. With shepherds in particular, I would prefer to separate two males from the same pack than two females. 

I think that SSA in female GSDs is worse than it is in other breeds. Female GSDs sometimes have something that is very similar to jealousy in humans. They have emotions, but they are raw, not like human emotions, but when they resource guard a person (jealousy) often they will be fine with that person petting a male dog, but a female and the world stops spinning. 

I haven't seen males have this issue. 

I think too, that often times bitches are easier to get solid obedience into. If you can give a command to a bitch before an altercation begins in earnest, and she complies, you may be able to head off bitch fighting, where dogs, can be a little different. 

Lastly, dogs can fight, and then be back together in a few days, like nothing happened. Bitches can fight and 3 years later you screw up and open a gate and it will be ON. They have memory, and once two bitches hate each other, it is often a lifetime crate/rotate. I have never seen dogs act that way.

There's a reason they call us bitches.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Well, I am discussing German Shepherds in particular and many GSD breeders agree with "Bitches = Stitches" and "Dogs fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for breathing rights." I have separated bitches fighting for breathing rights. I have also separated dogs fighting for breeding rights -- no contest. With shepherds in particular, I would prefer to separate two males from the same pack than two females.


This has already been established, nobody is disputing that females fighting are usually more serious than males, so perhaps we should let this sleeping dog lie.



selzer said:


> I think that SSA in female GSDs is worse than it is in other breeds. Female GSDs sometimes have something that is very similar to jealousy in humans. They have emotions, but they are raw, not like human emotions, but when they resource guard a person (jealousy) often they will be fine with that person petting a male dog, but a female and the world stops spinning.
> 
> I haven't seen males have this issue.


This isn't about SSA, maybe a separate thread should be started about that topic. This is about aggression between siblings, male/male, female/female or male/female due to pack/rank drive between to equally matched dogs, usually of equal dominance, upon maturity.


selzer said:


> I think too, that often times bitches are easier to get solid obedience into. If you can give a command to a bitch before an altercation begins in earnest, and she complies, you may be able to head off bitch fighting, where dogs, can be a little different.


Depends on the bitches. I have one that I would agree with you on, but the other is just the opposite.



selzer said:


> Lastly, dogs can fight, and then be back together in a few days, like nothing happened. Bitches can fight and 3 years later you screw up and open a gate and it will be ON. They have memory, and once two bitches hate each other, it is often a lifetime crate/rotate. I have never seen dogs act that way.
> 
> There's a reason they call us bitches.


Some male dogs can fight and be back together in a few days. I have seen on here where two females have fought are still able to be kept together, depends on what they were fighting about. If it were for rank / pack position between two equally matched males with similar dominance, you most likely aren't going to be able to do that. I have seen dogs this way, even owned two of them. It was always game on.

Let me repeat, there are many threads on here discussing ongoing male to male aggression that could only be resolved with crate/rotate or rehoming. There are many sites on the internet warning of aggression between siblings, male and female. I have posted Leerburg's comment on siblings fighting regardless of breed or size, and I have posted a reputable breeder from this forum on yet another thread about fighting brothers. 

She stated on the thread called* Fighting Brothers

*carmspack 

Crowned Member 

Join Date: Feb 2011

Location: ontario -

Posts: 10,396 

I think the standard advise is "do not buy two pups the same age , especially brothers , or two of the same gender " at the same time. Dogs don't benefit , neither do you.

One day it will be the fight to end all fights.

I would chose your favourite and rehome the other (or return to breeder)

You would not be walking away with two at the same time from me.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs 
carmspack 

It doesn't appear that I can make you understand that just because you have never experienced serious male to male aggression that it does exist. I never needed to put my hand in a pot of boiling oil to find out whether it was hot or would seriously harm me, I learned from the experience of others. I guess everybody has their own way of learning, but if it is based solely on their own experience, and only those that they know, it really closes a lot of doors to what is happening in the world beyond one's own scope.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Somebody posted Leerburg who says this (FWIW):
> 
> "All dogs have a very strong pack instinct. The more dogs in the pact, the stronger the instinct becomes. Raising 2 dogs together means an elevated pack drive, raising 3 dogs means an even higher pack drive.
> 
> Pack drive issues mean RANK ISSUES within the pack. Establishing RANK can often mean dog fights. Don't kid yourself that your 5 pound little lap dog will not fight with its 5 pound litter mate. This can become a big deal. This means dog fights when the dogs reach maturity (18 to 30 months of age)."


Not being aware of" this" led to my permanently bent little finger and the first stitches in my life ever! And I only had the one GSD and he "was" the problem!

My Bully guys were all low-rank drive dogs and Gunther's dog aggression was always directed towards unknown dogs not "Pack Members." If you have two Rank-driven dogs on your hands ( I only had the one Am Band Dawg vs GSD) And you make some mistakes in structure, rules and discipline ... you have a problem! My only ace was that my Am Band Dawg was "extremely" well trained! Still have the use of my left hand when screwed up breaking fight and hand landed in his mouth! Even with a 116 lb of OS WL GSD on his back when he realized it was me he did not chomp down! 

It was like living with a ticking time bomb. 

And since females and breeds got thrown into the mix, yeah Boxers are certainly in top two on the female thing. Stated Boxer rescue policy as regards female Boxers in a home with another female Boxer ...uh "NO!" Adopt :: Boxers and Buddies

*Crate Train the dogs**, Teach the Place Command* and *No Free Roaming in the house* are the bare minimum requirements. And "walking" and training each dog separate and together. For at least 18 months. If the OP follows up on the dog one in and one dog out thing?? That may very well be lighting a slow burning fuse??

And at the very first sign of trouble, use a freaking "Bonker!" "This crap" is where it came from. Just saying.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

selzer said:


> Maybe its the working line thing. Maybe they tend to have more trouble with littermate syndrome and male SSA. I wonder if it is more prevalent in some lines than others.


Now that you have mentioned it, it might be a workline thing. I remember when we were looking for breeders some said we have workline dogs and they are by nature different than those which are show lines as pets


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Now that you have mentioned it, it might be a workline thing. I remember when we were looking for breeders some said we have workline dogs and they are by nature different than those which are show lines as pets


It is a two male sibling thing that crosses not just lines, but all breeds.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Good lord, MAW .. please stop arguing about everything that Selzer posts. Your experiences/opinions are valid ... and so are hers. You can give your anecdotal evidence and quote the web .. and she can give anecdotal evidence of what she's SEEN with her dogs over the years. 

Stop breaking down her posts line by line so you can dispute it. Or PM her... or something.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Galathiel said:


> Good lord, MAW .. please stop arguing about everything that Selzer posts. Your experiences/opinions are valid ... and so are hers. You can give your anecdotal evidence and quote the web .. and she can give anecdotal evidence of what she's SEEN with her dogs over the years.
> 
> Stop breaking down her posts line by line so you can dispute it. Or PM her... or something.


For goodness sake Galathiel, it is Selzer arguing with everything that I post. Perhaps you should address her, as I do weary of the constant bickering. I am not the one trying to mislead OP into thinking she will have no problems with two same age male dogs despite what other people have "SEEN", experienced, or dealt with, especially breeders such as Carmspak or other experienced people, not just "ONE" breeder.

Do not tell me how to respond to somebody's post. That is an entitlement that does not belong to you. If you have been following the posts, you would see that Selzer is having a difficult time separating same sex aggression from sibling aggression, apples and oranges and is trying to encourage reckless decisions. 

You may agree with what Selzer has "SEEN" and disagree with my trivial "anecdotal evidence", the internet and breeders like Carmspak, but that does not entitle you to belittle my comments, or our collective experience, because you agree with Selzer's dismissive comments about sibling aggression.

I have "SEEN" more aggression between sibling males than female to female aggression and I would say it is a safe bet that I have been around the breed a lot longer than most on here, including Selzer.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Hehe .. Gee. Heated. Actually, I didn't say I agreed with her. And I didn't belittle you. I said your points/experiences were valid. How is that belittling? Weird.

I've been around GSDs over 40 years now. *shrug* I still keep an open mind, though.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK bottom line - OP has done something few board members advise. Their joy or potential problem. It will be interesting to see how this goes on down the line.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

middleofnowhere said:


> OK bottom line - OP has done something few board members advise. Their joy or potential problem. It will be interesting to see how this goes on down the line.


I'm betting this thread will be abandoned by OP.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Galathiel said:


> Hehe .. Gee. Heated. Actually, I didn't say I agreed with her. And I didn't belittle you. I said your points/experiences were valid. How is that belittling? Weird.
> 
> I've been around GSDs over 40 years now. *shrug* I still keep an open mind, though.


Maybe it was the way you capitalized the words when referencing others vs mine seeming to give the other words more credence? That, and only addressing me, and not other people involved to stop arguing? Or maybe addressing me as if it were me that initially negated somebody else's comment when that clearly is not the case? 

Where I come from, that is called reading between the lines. If I am in error, please accept my apologies.



middleofnowhere said:


> OK bottom line - *OP has done something few board members advise.* Their joy or potential problem. It will be interesting to see how this goes on down the line.


Thank you for your post.


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