# Not really an "issue" but a question about genetics?



## tjtoot (Dec 10, 2012)

I was just curious about some genetic combos. I love long hair german shepherds, and Id love to see a long hair white german shepherd, but Ive never seen one with long hair. Is it genetically possible? Also curious on the genetics for liver and cream, black and silver, and white. I know these are frowned upon, but just curious. Also, is there more than one type of long hair? Do any of these combinations have health problems?


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

It's definitely possible. It's a shame the only ones I've met we're super nervous and simply bred for color.


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## tjtoot (Dec 10, 2012)

Interested. is white reccessive?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

tjtoot said:


> Interested. is white reccessive?


Yes, white is recessive and so is the longstock coat.  If you want to see more pictures than you'll have time to look at, type in Berger Blanc Suisse in a search engine. Most of them are longstocks.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

White LC: https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1264336
https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1264566
Certainly possible

Liver, cream, silver, white are all faults. You won't see breeders that do it right breeding for those colors. Cream, silver and faded versions of white are all pigment faults. There is little pigment so the color is faded and appears unique. Liver and blue dilution are major recessives that are rare, but there are some "breeders" that breed for these faults because they are unique and flashy - easy gimmick. These colors should not be selectively bred for and color should be far from the chief motive of your breeding program. Genetic pool is very small and restricted - problematic. 

Threads on the matter:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/173053-blues-livers.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/128949-liver-gsds.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../139627-liver-sable-silver-black-pairing.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/138675-about-liver-liver-sables.html


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

qbchottu said:


> You won't see breeders that do it right breeding for those colors.


More longstock whites, apparently doing it all wrong  but they take real pretty pictures. 

4xHIT, 2xTotal Dog, UCH, UCDX, RO3, SureFire Victorious Joy Estel CD, RN, PT, HIC (d)

17xHIT, 2xTotal Dog, RBIMBS, BPISS, UCH, UCDX, UROC, Regalwise Victorious Faith CDX, RE, PT, HIC (d&s)

Victorious White german shepherds

The dog in my avatar btw is a white longstock and her nerves are fine.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

The exception is not the rule so I'm not sure what point you are making. If a certain rare color, fault, or exception is to your liking, that's your prerogative. But you won't see me endorsing or agreeing with it. How does the saying go...different strokes for different folks


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think the *issue* with breeding for recessives is that you have to have additional inbreeding because you need two copies of a recessive gene to have it expressed. Just the fact that a dog is from a breed already means some amount of inbreeding has occurred already.

Inbreeding increases the chance that genetic disease may occur because many diseases are carried on recessive genes and are more likely to have two copies with inbreeding. So breeding for ANY color is likely to increase the chances of that happening. The more "rare" the color the more inbreeding would have to happen to predictably produce a dog with that color. The color itself is not a health defect that I know of in the GSD (other than the dog may not meet a standard).

Though sometimes odd colors and longcoats can pop up in a litter where, because it is uncommon, it is just a random ocurrence in dogs who are not inbred--I *think* that is why folks recommend going with someone who breeds to the standard and giving your preference for a desired coat or color if it pops up.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Anyone that breeds for colors in this breed is missing the big picture, regardless of the color. The breed needs all the standard color patterns to be used and mixed to keep the breed strong and versatile.....any exclusive color breeding pattern is irresponsible in the long run.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Anyone that breeds for colors in this breed is missing the big picture, regardless of the color. The breed needs all the standard color patterns to be used and mixed to keep the breed strong and versatile.....any exclusive color breeding pattern is irresponsible in the long run.


And that includes breeding red and black show lines, right Cliff? Lol. :wild:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Another thing, breeding for extremes in all things is detrimental to this breed. Take the OP's question on white German Shepherds and longhairs.......both have always been part of the breed but were never considered the "face" of the breed. There have always been a small number of breeders that still bred for these type dogs (albeit at times both have been outside the standard), partially because there has always been a desire and market for them. I would never breed for either, though I fully accept them as part of the breed. Very similar to the black and red color today. The breed color pattern has historically been Black and Tan. Many years ago, the black and red dog was the occasional pup in a litter, probably less frequent than LC. Look at the situation today....this happened by breeding for color! I think this is no more beneficial to the breed than doing it for white or longhair or blue, even though it may be accepted standard wise. The point is this breed pays a price when bred for cosmetic purposes like color or specific coat length....jmo!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Funny that you bring up the trend for black and red. That's certainly the "in" thing and many judges place great importance on it. Now compare that to the recent hoopla over DDR dogs and black sables. That's the latest fad - everyone wants a "DDR black sable" and I see breeders catering to this trend. Will be interesting to see how this develops - no line in the GSD is immune so there is no reason to feel elevated about one lineage over another. It is up to the breeder's discretion as to WHY they are breeding...wish more took long term goals and implications into consideration, but as long as the money is good and the public demands it, "breeders" will always breed for color and singular goals over the total package.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

And that includes the black sable too. As much as I LOVE that color, I'd be very, very careful if buying a pup from parents of that color that the breeding is really for temperament and working ability and not because it is into fashion and the market ask for it.

ETA: qbchottu, you won me, I wrote before reading your post


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

hehehe....what do they say Catu? Great minds... 

I think it is hilarious to see "working breeders" bragging about their color breedings while admonishing those terrible showlines p) when the irony of the situation is that these "DDR black sable" litters are paired for purely cosmetic and color goals! If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is!

I am reminded of one or two "reputable" working breeders that are repeatedly recommended here and other places. They have hardly any working/show titles on the dogs, bitches are imported with titles, "breeder" doesn't work the dogs, litters are produced based on color, and fluff health tests are used to add credibility to the breeding program. It's not working or show that is the problem - it is the ultimate goal and purpose of one's breeding program. The ability to truly SEE the dog for what it is and knowing when to washout. There are those that do it right and those that cut corners. Unfortunately to the public, there is little difference between the breeder that "gets" it and those that breed for the latest trend/profits.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I must admit I was told by someone that I did not have a "real" sable because he is a patterned sable (Czech x WGWL)-Go figure -Now I did not want a longcoat living in SC and in briars and water a lot, but other than that who should care - they are all beautiful IMO.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I fully agree that breeding for black sable is just as faulty as breeding for black and red. Here's where you have to be careful.....many black sable come from a parent that isn't black sable.....they could have a parent that is bi-color or all black, or grey sable to arrive at that particular pup being black sable. That is very different then say 5 or 6 generations of just black sable of both parents or black and red of both parents in producing a color.
But the irony is people can learn that this is not a good breeding practice and STILL continue to do it and so called knowledgable people will point them out as reputable....go figure. Black sable, all Black, Bl and Rd, all White, makes no difference exclusive breeding for cosmetic purposes will not strengthen the breed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Also breeding for that big blocky head that is the flavor of the month.....


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Also breeding for that big blocky head that is the flavor of the month.....


I thought the flat "collie" nose was all the rage in the AKC ring right now?

And yes...sad to say that working lines are quite the fad right now with everyone trying to turn their back on the AKC show ring standard of the saddle back black and tan. People go on forums like this, do some research, get pushed towards working lines by 99 out of 100 people on here due to their "better" temperaments and then they go out and find a BYB breeding beautiful dark sables...we have more than a few sable puppies at my club right now that have some pretty interesting temperament issues for 4 month old dogs.

And yes...that is a darker sable in my profile picture lol.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes people want a working line dog dba "couch potato":hammer: then complain when they have a demon on their hands.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> Yes people want a working line dog dba "couch potato":hammer: then complain when they have a demon on their hands.


I used to defend working lines with swords when people claimed they can't be appropriate pets, but with time I'm becoming more snobby. "Ohhh,yes! If you want to have one you better give him a work to do or it will destroy your house (which is not entirely false, but it goes with most GSDs and basically with most pups and younger dogs). The few, the better.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well a good working line dog (or ANY GSD) should have an off switch but it shouldnt be happy snoozing in front of the fireplace all day......some folks want a pointy eared bassett hound, make that a black sable one.


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