# So this is the 3rd bite...



## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

Hi All,

I'm hoping some of you can shed some light on what I'm doing so wrong with my dog, Bailey.

My mother found Bailey on a website "free to a good home" in March. He's a 3-5yr old GSD x Labrador. The owner couldn't wait to get rid of him in hindsight. She asked me no questions, just brought him to my car. I saw no alarm bells, stupidly I know. 

He's the only dog at my home. I have two cats that he respects very well. When he arrived his issues became apparent very quickly. He's a very loving, respectful dog, and is extremely well behaved manners wise. However, it was clear he'd hardly, if EVER been walked. He didn't know how to wear a collar and didn't know how to walk on a lead. His paws were red raw by the end of his first week, and was limping. He would also air bite if I went to grab his collar, even gently.

At first he wasn't dog aggressive. This developed over a period of a month. I've worked on this, and he now walks past another dog on a lose lead, even if the other dog is going crazy at him. At first he would pull me across the road and try to bite their face. He will still try and attack a dog if he gets to meet them on the lead... I've been taking him to dog training classes where he gets to socialise with other dogs. He's learnt to sniff but is still nervous to socialise. Wednesday night he went to bite a dog that didn't give him space (justified), and then went to bite another owner (possibly an air bite, or just a 'telling off' bite'). This was when the owner put his hand forward as my dog walked past. Bailey was not cornered in any way. He had a muzzle on both times. He was just telling the man "Do not touch me"..... At least that's what I think?

Then last night, he bit me again. This time causing red marks that are still there this morning, but no bruising and he didn't draw blood. Basically I was trying to move his position so I could move MY position on the sofa..... Now honestly, I don't believe this was a possessive bite. He was simply telling me off for trying to move him. If I had asked him to move with words, he would have done so straight away without complaint. It was the touch he didn't like. Even though it was gentle.... But I still don't think this is acceptable behaviour. Surely he shouldn't be able to tell his owner off like that? He's not dominant in any way since I've had him.
*
Now onto the bad bites...*

When he had a ear infection about three months ago, I tried putting ear drops in and he became petrified very quickly. He had a fabric muzzle on and was trying to 'nip' me the whole time. When I finally gave up and took the muzzle off, I went to pat his head and he bit me. He bruised my arm and it lasted for nearly two weeks. 

The second bite was the first time he had ever dirtied in the house. This was about a month ago. He dirtied right in front of me. I've never hit my dog, and never will. But I did shout. He went into a room he's not supposed to go into, and I followed. I pointed at the door and went to put my hand on his back (I never grab his collar because he air bites). This touch usually tells him to move forward.... Because he didn't cower or appear nervous, just a little shameful, I didn't realise the severity of the situation. He was technically in a corner and must have thought I was going to hit him. Anyway, he bit my arm three times, shaking it and drawing blood. He punctured millimeters from my artery. Luckily I was calm and relaxed my arm while he bit and shook it, so the bites didn't tear... I was in such shock that when he finally let go I just collapsed right there. 

At this point I took him to my dog training and had a session with her. She believed it's not an issue because I didn't read his body language well enough to realise he was petrified. And also, we didn't know his history, whether he'd been beaten or not. She suggested I just be very weary of his signals and just condition him to accept me cleaning his ears etc.

So long story short, I can now clean his ears if I have sausages, and also clip his nails. But by getting to this point, I've listened to every growl and backed off.

I have a sinking feeling this is bringing new issues. He is now telling me what is and what isn't acceptable. So last night, when he bit me with absolutely no warning, it was him telling me what to do.

Please can someone advise me what to do in this situation. If I'm looking at it wrong, please do tell me. I just want to solve the situation. I have no children but there is no way I would ever let a child near him if he nips them so easily for just moving his paws. 

Thanks.


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## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

It's probably worth noting, since I've had him he's become a very well trained dog. He knows many commands. 'Stay' amongst other 20+ other dogs (during training), turn on the light, close doors etc. He's highly intelligent and loves training. He heels on both sides on a walk, without a lead, for up to half an hour sometimes.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

This is way to big of an issue to get help in a web board. Sorry. 

It sounds like you are doing a great job with him, and he is making a lot of progress. But you need someone to help you through this that can see what's going on. The trainer you are working with does not sound competent in this particular area. So not her. Find so done that is experienced with GSD and aggression.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

I really hope someone who is an actual dog trainer on this forums or knows someone in your area you can see will pipe in.

While i do believe in counter conditioning, i think that it needs to happen in an order. And you really need to establish that you are the leader of her. A trainer can better help you with this. Its usually simple things in life.

Management: 

NILIF (Nothing in life is free) i think would be really good for her and for you. There are plenty of posts on this forums and articles else where.

She should loose couch, bed, going first privileges at all times. 

I would always have a 6 foot leash on her, so that you dont have to grab her by the collar or touch her.

You do want to set her up for success.

Make sure she is exercised really well every day. Also make sure she lots of mental stimulation.

* I would find another trainer, who is going to help you out more than what the current one did. I have had 4 trainers, the 4th one is by the far the most helpful for me and my dog. Although we did take things from all the trainers.

Sorry i'm not helpful! I do hope someone who knows more about this behavior will pipe in. My dog is fear aggressive to strangers, but she warmed up to me and my family really quickly after i got her. So this is something completely different.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

SBailey said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm hoping some of you can shed some light on what I'm doing so wrong with my dog, Bailey.
> 
> ...


The hilighted is my biggest concern. This isn't a back off nip as would be expected (NOT ACCEPTED) from an unstable dog. Some refer to the bite and shake as a kill bite. 

The instances of his nipping/air biting at the stranger - good thing you did have a muzzle. Biting you when you try to move him - make sure he knows and understands the 'off' command. He is no longer allowed on sofas, beds etc. Keep a short leash on him inside. 

Honestly, my 2 cents is that you have bigger issues with this dog then can be handled on a forum or by your current trainer - judging by the trainer's response after this last bite. 

Locate a trainer experienced with aggression and working dogs. It could be the handling/leadership techniques need some fine tuning, something with the dog or a combination of the 2.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I guess now you know exactly why they were so happy to pawn the dog of to someone else. Stories like yours make me want to smack some people upside on the head … but I digress!

You said: He's a very loving, respectful dog, and is extremely well behaved manners wise. 
Um, no he’s not. If he was loving and respectful, he wouldn’t be biting you! 

You said: He will still try and attack a dog if he gets to meet them on the lead.
Is it REALLY an attack? Or is he just being a complete and total doofus because he evidently has ZERO socialization skills? 

You said: Wednesday night he went to bite a dog that didn't give him space (justified), 
Um, no, this is not justified … a lip curl, a low growl is justified … biting another dog because they came to close to his space is not justified

You said: Basically I was trying to move his position so I could move MY position on the sofa..... Now honestly, I don't believe this was a possessive bite. He was simply telling me off for trying to move him. 
At this point, I really don’t think it matters what type of bite it is, the fact remains he thinks (knows) it’s ok to bite you to get you to do what HE wants … telling you off (biting you) because you tried to move him? There is no justification for that. 

You said: At this point I took him to my dog training and had a session with her. She believed it's not an issue because I didn't read his body language well enough to realise he was petrified. And also, we didn't know his history, whether he'd been beaten or not. She suggested I just be very weary of his signals and just condition him to accept me cleaning his ears etc.

You need to find a trainer that actually knows what they are talking about. I’m sorry, but that’s another person I’d like to take out back and smack upside the head. 

This dog has so many issues going on in its head and I don’t know if he’s fear reactive, total aggression or just a complete doofus of a dog that has learned to bite people / dogs to get what he wants. 

Either way you’re in for a long haul. Maybe someone here can give you an outline of training techniques, behavioural tips so you can start from scratch with the dog. The first thing I would do to work with this dog is muzzle it while he is out with you ANYWHERE. (The only place I wouldn’t muzzle the dog at this point is in his crate).

The reason for the muzzle is twofold: it protects you and anyone else and when he does go to bite, you can assess the situation afterwards to determine what his trigger was, and modify the situation next time. 

I’m really sorry that you have such a heart of gold and got taken in by someone regarding this dog. I hope that other people on here can give you more concrete guidance and training techniques so that life with your dog can be a happy time.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Over 160 views, and only a handful of replies. I think that is because most are unwilling to say what they are really thinking.

I have a question for you: what if he had gone and gotten your throat instead of your arm?

The dog administered a kill shake. He meant business.

The trainer was dead wrong, gave you terrible advice, and escalated the dangerous behavior of a very fear aggressive dog.

There are so many good, sweet dogs out there waiting for a home.

You need to ask yourself some serious questions regarding whether or not it is worth the high risk to keep this one.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I am with gsdsar and s flowers.

You are doing what you can, sounds like progress and progress is good-
No one is able to give you the advice you so need on a forum even the best trainers here would probably need to see the dog in person and get a feel for the situation. They can offer help but at the end of it you need hands and eyes on from a trainer.
As you described it, Bailey bit hard and shook?
Thats is not just a back of nip, 
What if it was your face? Throat?


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

I have to agree with others, seek professional help NOW!

It sounds to me that he is sensitive to being grabbed (obviously very sensitive). For now you want to prevent reactions. Leash attached 24/7, so you can safely move him if need be. No more bed or couch privileges. And do not test him EVER (ie don't move him if he's sulking or showing any fearful displays), or at least until you find a behaviorist.

As others have stated the bite where he grabbed and shook is serious, not to be taken lightly. You have to decide how far you are willing to take his training and the danger it may place you in.


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

Personally, I think the dog is a ticking time bomb. It only takes an instant for the dog to get loose and attack a child or attack you and kill. I know you've put in a lot of work with this dog, but I wouldn't take the risk.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OR the dog could have some pain .

"His paws were red raw by the end of his first week, and was limping. He would also air bite if I went to grab his collar, even gently."

That really really wasn't the best introduction for wearing a collar and going for a walk , something which you said the dog probably had never previously experienced. 

You have him for one week.
The dog's life has been turned upside down. He doesn't know you , his new situation, expectations , tolerances . Has not been socialized outside of his narrow world which was familiar to him for what? , 3 - 5 years of his life.
That is significant .

Then in the first week you collar him , walk him till he is sore . 
His past experience "it was clear he'd hardly, if EVER been walked"

Sore feet - let me put you into some ill fitting shoes or you with blistered feet and let's see how cheery you would be to keep going , or go again. 
He was limping . Muscles weren't conditioned. Painful feet . Possibly some injury or sensitivity due to impingement of a nerve needing chiropractic care.

Clear canine communication I DON'T WANT TO GO "He would also air bite if I went to grab his collar, even gently."

For the dog socializing bit -- he just needs to negotiate a public space in a neutral manner , which he may well have done in the beginning. 
"At first he wasn't dog aggressive. This developed over a period of a month. "

You may want things of this dog that the dog can't provide .
Dog social doesn't mean close contact and sniffing or engaging in playful interaction . 

"I've worked on this, and he now walks past another dog on a lose lead, even if the other dog is going crazy at him"

Okay so why not be satisfied with this. 

" He will still try and attack a dog if he gets to meet them on the lead..."

Easy to fix , he doesn't need that close in your face social contact with another dog . 

" I've been taking him to dog training classes where he gets to socialise with other dogs. He's learnt to sniff but is still nervous to socialise."

The dog isn't comfortable , is socially inhibited, doesn't need the contact so why keep pushing him to be less awkward . Your agenda .

" Wednesday night he went to bite a dog that didn't give him space (justified), and then went to bite another owner (possibly an air bite, or just a 'telling off' bite'). "

Dog pushed into interactions which he has been screaming he can't take . Too much . Overload . He is 3 to 5 years and was set in his view of what the world was . Otherwise in a limited environment which he was happy with he was more than okay --
"He's a very loving, respectful dog, and is extremely well behaved manners wise. " 

"Basically I was trying to move his position so I could move MY position on the sofa..... Now honestly, I don't believe this was a possessive bite. He was simply telling me off for trying to move him."
So don't have the dog on the sofa. Give the dog a plush mat exclusive to his use.

"
" If I had asked him to move with words, he would have done so straight away without complaint. It was the touch he didn't like. Even though it was gentle.... "

So had you used your voice the dog would have complied . How easy is that ! The pushing and his reaction just makes me think he has some physical pain . Could be arthritis of inflammation . 

" put my hand on his back (I never grab his collar because he air bites). " Pain?

What you need to do is to take the dog to the vet and have a thorough physical . Even if the dog needs to be sedated . I would have an x ray done to see the condition of the spine , hips , shoulders , neck . 
Then you can take appropriate care action , either anti inflammatories and / or chiropractic care .

Then realize and appreciate the dog for its limitations and give the dog a world in which he can function to his best potential . Safe and happy for him, safe and happy for you.

You can't change him to be what you wanted .

Nobody knows why he was given up. Ironically I overheard a conversation in a coffee shop line-up. Some ladies talking about what to do with the dogs of a friend/family member that had recently died and they were left with the dogs as property. Some of the ideas were pretty callous . 
In this case who knows , the dog may have been owned by a young adult finally leaving home , but leaving an otherwise unwanted dog behind . 
I have heard of tenanted buildings with animals left behind . Usually cats . 

You do know where you picked the dog up . Go back to that residence and get more information . Ask about previous vet care . Ask them . Be proactive.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'd bet this is a combination of a dog that may be be fearful (maybe not super bad, but at least right now in a new situation), weaker nerves, and never receiving the right training and management. Maybe in his previous home he bit to get what he wanted and/or to make people he didn't want around go away. So far it's worked for him. I would give him some space, give him plenty of time to settle in (months). Avoid physically blocking him in a corner even if you're not angry and don't intend to block him. Be very consistent with him. Establish a daily routine that is predictable for him. Do not push him to hard right now with the training or his behavior around other dogs. Let him settle in, establish some trust with him *at home* first. Above all, use appropriate management so that he isn't interacting with strangers.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I'd bet this is a combination of a dog that may be be fearful (maybe not super bad, but at least right now in a new situation), weaker nerves, and never receiving the right training and management. Maybe in his previous home he bit to get what he wanted and/or to make people he didn't want around go away. So far it's worked for him. I would give him some space, give him plenty of time to settle in (months).


She has had the dog since March!


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

carmspack said:


> OR the dog could have some pain .
> 
> "His paws were red raw by the end of his first week, and was limping. He would also air bite if I went to grab his collar, even gently."
> 
> That really really wasn't the best introduction for wearing a collar and going for a walk , something which you said the dog probably had never previously experienced. ..... Be proactive.



I think Carmen (carmspack), out of all the posts, is correct. If you do want to keep this dog, then re-read Carmen's post and take it to heart. 

Think: "When I hit myself in the head with a hammer, it hurts. What should I do?" Don't hit yourself in the head with a hammer.

Accept the progress you have made with this dog, and realize that right now, at least, he has limits to what he can take and what he can do. Accept those limits. They may change in a year, two years... or never. You have NO idea what this dog's life was like until you got him. Be aware of that. Realize that you may have to manage him, there may be things in him that you will just have to accept--such as him not being a social butterfly, him not accepting the amount of touching that you would like, him not being a child-safe dog, etc. This is a part of rescue--and face it, this dog is definitely a rescue. You take the bad with the good, and you manage whatever you can't change in him.

Susan


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

The truth is this dog is extremely dangerous to you and even with the right training, probably always will be. I would consider whether or not this could be too great of a threat to your own safety. As far as my advice for trying to work on this - start with a full vet check up if possible. Raw paws sounds horrible and a definite reason a dog new to an environment would nip. But even if those have healed there may be other issues. Clear him of any physical pain. 

Then seek not a trainer, but a behaviorist. The bite and shake of your arm is disturbing. And extremely dangerous. I understand what it's like to have a dog that you love, that you see so much in, but is aggressive. That was exactly what my last GSD was like. He was so intelligent, so gentle and sweet unless something made him uncomfortable. He had advanced obedience down pat, but there were still things that set him off, touching and such. I had two serious bites and many small ones before I had to make the decision to put him down. I wish I could have continued working with him, but at some point you have to consider whether it is physically safe for you to do so. Atlas ended up biting me seriously (biting and shaking) twice - once in the leg and then once on the upper part of my shoulder, very near my throat. It was difficult and there were other factors that played into the decision as well that hopefully you don't have to deal with (Atlas was also epileptic which didn't help) but keep your mind open to what might truly be best for him.

Find someone who is devoted to working with aggressive dogs and skilled in creating modification plans to counter condition and modify these aggressive behaviors. But I would say this is the last step that can be taken before considering whether euthanization could be a more peaceful solution for him.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I'm sorry that you've gone through so much with this dog. It's obvious that you love him dog and have really worked hard with him. However, IMO, this dog is not stable or safe. You can find a new, reputable trainer who knows what they're doing, and manage this dog for life. You have to be realistic about who the dog is and the potential danger and liability of keeping him. I have to say that honestly, I could never keep a dog like this, and if my dog is causing me more stress than enjoyment, then it's time to take a hard look at things.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I have a question for you: what if he had gone and gotten your throat instead of your arm?
> 
> The dog administered a kill shake. He meant business.
> 
> ...


I'm not qualified to give advice in this matter but what Sunflowers said struck home with me.
My own dog, who I loved as a kid, bit me...twice.
The first time was on my nose. I was 7 yrs old. It wasn't too bad and healed fine. The 2nd time when I was 8 was worse. Got me in the mouth. He got my face and his tooth went through my lip. Had to get 5 stitches. I guess I was lucky that he didn't get my eye, or rip my ear off.
This was 40 some years ago and I have a scar on my face/lip to forever remember it.

What was my dog's problem? Who knows? I don't remember where he came from now, I'm too old.  But we didn't have behaviorists/trainers back in the 60's/70's like we do now. Let's just say my Dad "took care of it". 

Some will not agree with me and that's certainly their prerogative. But here goes:
I personally wouldn't trust a dog who's already bitten so many times and like Sunflowers said "administered a kill shake". What if it HAD been your face, or a child's face? Maybe it's because of my own personal history and I'm too sensitive about it. But you really have to know what you're doing if you're going to keep this dog. Think about it and please be careful. 

Good luck with whatever course of action you choose.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this dog is extremely dangerous -- normally I am the one who sees this in the dog while the owner is oblivious and hopeful.

In this case I don't . 
I see management problem in an owner who won't accommodate the special needs of the dog who otherwise is "He's a very loving, respectful dog, and is extremely well behaved manners wise. " 
even move off the couch without challenge 
"If I had asked him to move with words, he would have done so straight away without complaint."

didn't have "At first he wasn't dog aggressive. This developed over a period of a month." until fiddled with going too fast , too social , no need for it .

So - I think SBailey , the OP opened the thread with the right question
"I'm hoping some of you can shed some light on what I'm doing so wrong with my dog, Bailey"

This sort of reminds me of a dog , a yellow lab , that was found as a stray. Lovely , friendly dog , would do back flips to work with you . Grooming forget it ! Touch his shoulder forget it . Dog taken to local chiropractor who works in our horsey community -- couldn't do anything to make a positive change.

I advised the dog be x rayed. Then they found that the dog had a bit of B B pellet in his shoulder . Bit of surgery and voila a great little happy dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think this dog is what he is. If the OP can't manage him or does want to work with him (and I would totally sympathize), a trainer is not going to magically help. Either way it is going to involve a commitment, likely during the lifetime of the dog, to consistent leadership and careful management so the dog is not in contact with strangers. I've owned a GSD that would fear bite. Maybe the difference is she never bit *me*, but I didn't provoke her either and I could read the signs leading up to a bite. She led a very structured life and had "safe zones" where she could be alone and people were not allowed to go near these areas. She was not an aggressive monster, in fact I put 12 titles on that dog, but bottom line is she *would* bite if pushed far enough and her threshold was a lot lower than a stable GSD. There are a lot of ways I enjoyed my dog and she was very good for me, taught me a lot, but even with the progress we made she was never a dog that I would bring around kids, to a dog park, or let loose unsupervised with people at my house. She got nervous so management was more for her sake than theirs. Dogs don't *like* to bite.

You just have to decide whether you want to live with that kind of dog or not.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Liesje , good post .
"I think this dog is what he is. If the OP can't manage him or does want to work with him (and I would totally sympathize), a trainer is not going to magically help."

The dog is giving you what he can give you . 

so BaileyS (OP) is that you and the Bailey dog being discussed in your avatar . If so , why are you so close and embracing the dog with the dog close to your face.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

carmspack said:


> "His paws were red raw by the end of his first week, and was limping. He would also air bite if I went to grab his collar, even gently."


My very first thought when I read this was that this dog has been sitting in a crate it's entire life. Dragged out only for something specific and then shoved back in.


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## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

Hi All,

Thank you very much for taking time out of your day to write such lengthy and helpful replies. They were painful to read, and I'm not ashamed to say I cried. 

Firstly, *Carmspack *- Yes, that is me with Bailey in my avatar. He's not aggressive all the time. It's been three bites in 8 months. I know that's very bad, but I'm just trying to show how he's the perfect dog 90% of the time. He doesn't jump, run around, barge, demand, bark.

Bailey is my first dog. When I got him, I wanted to do right by him. That meant taking him on walks. For days he didn't show any complaint or any limping. It was only a few days later when I noticed his limping, and then looked at his paws. Of course then I realised he wasn't used to walking and I immediately decreased his walks. To this day, if he doesn't want to go on a walk (3 or 4 times a week), I don't make him. I don't let him control the walk, but if he shows signs of wanting to go home, I start heading back. 

I absolutely love Bailey. He's taken my heart and he's my everything. I know this sounds crazy, but I'm not surrounded by family and I struggle with social situations, so me and Bailey spend a lot of time together. I'm very attached to him. 

As for putting him down. I understand the logic with this, I honestly do. But I don't have it in my heart to do such a thing. I'm at war inside because I know if he does bite someone else, that would mean jail time for me.

I hadn't looked at his issues as something I should just accept. Because I love him and only want the best for him, I assumed rehabilitation was the key. I wanted him to relax and become the well adjusted dog that meant he was happy. Now I see that I'm forcing him to be social with other dogs. It's such a change of view that I'm struggling with how to deal with it, if I'm honest. I honestly thought I was de-sensitising him to dogs. 

I'm worried that I don't know how to tell him off when he does growl, air bite or nip at me. Apart from saying 'NO!'. What can I do? His fear escalates so quickly that anything else makes him reactive

I've started banning him from the sofa and bed. He's taking it incredibly well...

Thank you for suggesting I see a behaviourist about Bailey's issues. I'll Google it now and get an appointment set up. 

I think right now I need to re-read all your comments and try to figure out the best way I can help Bailey. 

Thank you again, I really appreciate your advice.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

SBailey - I applaud your efforts with Bailey. Yes, Bailey sounds like a dangerous dog, but I think you are well aware of it. Make sure you proceed with caution, keeping you and the public safe. I think seeking the help of a professional is the correct route to take at this time. 

Maybe you could keep a daily log of your time with Bailey. I truly hope you'll find the key that helps Bailey live a wonderful, safe life.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"but I'm just trying to show how he's the perfect dog 90% of the time. He doesn't jump, run around, barge, demand, bark."

Don't do the things that trigger his need to be defensive , self protective .

Have you had the dog at a Vet's ?

Do you have an alternative Vet health care person close that may look into Bach's flower remedies ? Calm first , slowly desensitize physical issues . 

I know how serious the situation is in Britain with the Dangerous Dog act .

Maybe you have to think of the dog as being socially handicapped, but happy to be a home-body .


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Dogs not raised from puppyhood come with issues, and sadly we usually have NO idea going in how those issues will present themselves. It sounds like you have a very bright and seemingly biddable dog, but one with unidentifiable past issues. I wouldn't trust that dog until it has proven itself over time. I would love the dog, but not love On the dog!

Have you had a full vet workup to eliminate any pain reaction? Start there.

And even though you've had the dog since March, it is NEVER too late to start over with a 2 week shut down, followed by an extensive and intensive NILIF period...though, honestly, most humans aren't up to that.

But, bottom line, if you have unknowingly taken in a bite-and-shake dog, you are probably already in over your head, and the dog needs to be rehomed to professional rehabilitation. No matter how much we love our adopted dogs, neither we nor they deserve the risk of a serious bite. Could be fatal to you or the dog...and both can almost always be prevented if the dog can be placed with the proper handler.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Oh, SBailey, I'm sorry. I missed the 3rd page before I posted. You are clearly in it for the long haul with this dog. I totally appreciate that. Have done so myself. And you can, as well!

When it comes to the long haul, and rehabbing a dog, management in the interim is key. Reduce the interactions, both human and canine. Take your sweet time. Address only ONE issue at a time, aggression being the first. If you don't give your sweetheart any opportunity to be stressed, he will have no reason to react aggressively. It's going to be long row to hoe, even longer than planting fall bulbs and watching spring blooms, but sounds like you are capable. But if ever you feel you are not, seek professional advise. Never hesitate


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Over 160 views, and only a handful of replies. I think that is because most are unwilling to say what they are really thinking.
> 
> I have a question for you: what if he had gone and gotten your throat instead of your arm?
> 
> ...


Agreed 100%. I am a dog trainer (25 years exp.) but a dog like that is like a loaded gun that can go off any time. If someone came to me with this kind of story I would not work with this dog because I personally think there is not much chance for success as a pet dog as his fear is so deeply ingrained. He also has has had plenty of success with his behavior so it will increase. You are likely to get bitten again if the right trigger comes along and then you may not be so lucky. Did you take the picture in your avatar after the bites? If you did, you took a huge risk having your face so close to him. A few years ago a Labrador took the face off from a French woman and she now has a face transplant. Stay away from your current trainer who told you that you didn't read his body language correctly. That is unfair to you, as if it was your fault. Pet dogs should not need to be like that.
I admire your commitment but for me there is a limit in putting my own safety and that of others at risk. You are in the UK so liability might not be such a big thing. In the US you would have a known biter and are super liable. Please keep us posted. I know this pulls on your heart strings. I had a similar kind of dog years ago but I stopped before he ever bit me. Also look into 'Rabies vaccinosis'.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

This is the OP's first dog.

No matter how much care we take care, if the dog decides to bite, there is no way we can be fast enough to avoid it.
They are too quick, they are too powerful. 
Those teeth can do irreversible damage in a nanosecond.

There is no way anyone can advise management of this kind of dog over the Internet, especially to someone who has zero dog experience.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I admire your commitment but for me there is a limit in putting my own safety and that of others at risk. You are in the UK so liability might not be such a big thing.


Dangerous Dogs Act 1991


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

JackandMattie said:


> Oh, SBailey, I'm sorry. I missed the 3rd page before I posted. You are clearly in it for the long haul with this dog. I totally appreciate that. Have done so myself. And you can, as well!
> 
> When it comes to the long haul, and rehabbing a dog, management in the interim is key. Reduce the interactions, both human and canine. Take your sweet time. Address only ONE issue at a time, aggression being the first. If you don't give your sweetheart any opportunity to be stressed, he will have no reason to react aggressively. It's going to be long row to hoe, even longer than planting fall bulbs and watching spring blooms, but sounds like you are capable. But if ever you feel you are not, seek professional advise. Never hesitate


Seriously? IMO this is dangerous advice. You can't solve everything with love and giving this "sweet heart" no stress. He HAS stress, that is the problem! You can not undo lack of socialization at this age. He will always be dangerous.
Example: In the center where I was trained there was a Rottweiler (sorry Rotties) who had bitten people out of fear and under-socialization, kinda similar situation. Through extensive de-sensitation he was able to mingle relaxed in a group of strangers and could be petted. Then he needed to see a vet. The vet made the wrong move and he took a chunk out of the vet's face. (stupid that they didn't muzzle him). Despite seemingly doing well, they didn't know all the triggers and he was put down.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Dangerous Dogs Act 1991


Thanks SF, and good to see that.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> This is the OP's first dog. . .
> 
> There is no way anyone can advise management of this kind of dog over the Internet, especially to someone who has zero dog experience.


 Sunflowers makes a valid point here. I suggested management, and didn't weigh the facts you've shared...Namely your inexperience. Management means one thing to a first time owner and something entirely different to an experienced owner. Keep up with your research 

That said, I am weighing in over the internet here, as are all the trainers owning decades of experience. Yet somehow, apparently miraculously, I and the tenfold dogs I have fostered/owned for the last three decades have survived and thrived. God forbid.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

JackandMattie said:


> Yet somehow, apparently miraculously, I and the tenfold dogs I have fostered/owned for the last three decades have survived and thrived. God forbid.


I did too, dozens who made it safe but I was selective which one I would give a chance for a successful life as a pet. That doesn't mean every dog can be rehab-ed, unless you didn't imply this.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Excellent point, wolfy dog... not every dog gets to be a pet dog. I am addressing the OP and her own dog. I will grant you that I may be too optimistic to be weighing in on the dangerous dog situations...having never had a failure. But that does NOT mean they aren't out there, only that I haven't had that challenge.

Then again, I'm reading a committed owner who is asking how to keep her own, beloved dangerous dog. I may be giving horrible advice, but I'm being honest in sharing with her that it can be done, and it's not rocket science. It's basic canine psychology. And besides that, you and Sunshine are tempering my optimism with your own experience and solid reminders of UK law.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

But you're right, wolfy dog, it can't always be done 

Sometimes we do have to walk away. 

It's just really tough for me to say give up on any dog. When I meet the dog I have to give up on, it will make more sense


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Maybe I didn't read carefully enough, bit I see a lot of postings about "under socialization" without mention of the role of genetics.

If the dog is genetically screwed up & too many are, no amount of training or "management" is going to fix him & turn him into a safe dog.

A good quality basket muzzle from Ray Allen is your best friend, if you insist on trying to work with a dog like this.

OP, you're minimizing your dog's problems due to your lack of experience & good heart. He's dangerous & unpredictable.

Shelters & rescues are crammed with really nice dogs in need of good homes.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There are thousands of sound, nice dogs being euthanized all over the US every day. This dog has had every advantage from an owner who wants to do the right thing by training and looking for help.

There could be some underlying issue causing the dog not to want to be touched....I have a friend with a dog who has some undiagnosable issue which appears similar to fibromyalgia in people, touching her hurts her....she has spent thousands of dollars to try to figure out what is wrong with the dog...who will spend the rest of it's life on gabupentin (sp?) and tramadol. 

More likely, the dog has nerve/temperament deficits which will never be overcome. This can escalate into a situation where you will end up in a hospital. Happened to a cousin of a friend, who went to extreme lengths to "fix" a genetically messed up mix of a dog who savaged her boyfriend at 3 am for no reason. He has had several surgeries to repair his arm...and may never have full use of his hand. She FINALLY - after months of knowledgeable people advising her to do so (who were not gaining anything from her financially!!!), believed the dog was not fixable, and put the dog to sleep. 

Maybe I am just cynical - but many trainers who say they can fix this are people making a good living or second income from dog training. Your problem is their paycheck.

The dog is unpredictable, dangerous and some perfectly nice dog in a rescue could benefit more from a good home.

Lee


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## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

Hi All,

Thank you for your continued support and advice. It means a lot. After a very long night weighing up the negatives with the positives, I've come to the following conclusion:

I am giving Bailey a month probation before I re-look at my options. 

*The reasons:*
1. The most selfish - I can't face making the decision to end his life. No rescues would take him as he's a biter. And, more importantly, I don't WANT this to end so negatively. I HAVE to give it my all for one more month before trying to find someone more experienced to take him on. I hope more than anything it doesn't come to that.
2. After realising I have been pushing him into becoming a dog he was never meant to be, I owe him to change my ways and see if that works/helps. 
3. There are a few techniques that you have all mentioned that I have yet to try. I owe him that to at least try them.
*
The steps I'm taking during this month:*
1. He is no longer allowed on the sofa or bed. He has taken this very well. 

2. The NILIF method. 
I have never tried this. But after reading up on it, Bailey already does most of it with me. He doesn't ask for attention, but waits for me to call him to me. When I'm done giving him attention or want him to leave me alone, he does this straight away. Although I've never been conscious to ignoring him, so I'm doing this from now on. 

Now I think of it, he does bring his toys to me now and again to play 'fetch' while I'm watching T.V... This I'll have to stop.

At meal times, he already has to sit and wait for me to leave the room before I give him the command 'Go on then' to eat his food. I also ask him to stop eating and leave the room half way through his meal. Something I'm proud of since starting raw. Although I'm never stupid enough to push his limits here and put my hand in his bowl or touch him during this training. I'm trying to train him that when I enter the room, he must leave whatever he's eating. It's a safety thing, so if children enter the room, he leaves his bowl and there's no worry over food aggression. He's taking to the training very well (thoughts anyone?) 

He also waits at the bottom/top of the stairs until the individual (doesn't matter who) is at the bottom/top and says 'Come on then' to allow him to follow. He also does this at every door in the house, and in and out of the car. And at the front gate. I'm trying to get him to do it when he comes to a road off lead, but this is proving challenging. (I live in a rural area with very quiet roads. He's only off lead if I know there is no one else near, or any dogs near. He's muzzled at this time anyway).

However, I have started giving him a treat if he comes up to me while I work (I work from home). This is something I have to stop immediately!

Also, he is not this respectful to ANYONE ELSE. He demands treats and attention off my mother. I will make sure she starts incorporating NILIF with him when she sees him.

He also gets agitated if I hug anyone. Barking and jumping up to break up the hug. Is this possessive?

As for the 'earning everything'. I like how I can do this with his meals more, and with his ball. I'm going to do this more. He loves doing tricks etc while out on the walk.​3. Now please don't judge or shout at me here. I've been thinking if there's anything medically that could be bringing this on. 
I have switched him to raw (8 days ago), and he's thriving on it. He had skin issues (allergies) and that's why I changed him to raw. All of a sudden all his skin has cleared up. He's always had a sensitive stomach (allergic to additives too) so I've always tried keeping that sort of stuff from him. He's doing so well on this raw, that I believe a month more might change how he feels to being touched/moved (bad stomach makes anyone grumpy).
I've also been slowly training him to get his nails clipped. They're long (vet said they weren't too long) but maybe they are the reason he's against me touching his legs. Maybe they hurt. I touched his legs this morning after walk and seemed sensitive to the touch... However, this isn't something I can rush. I'm clipping them a little bit every couple of days, just to get him used to it and see it as positive. There's not a lot of gravel around where I live, mostly countryside, so I guess he isn't getting to wear them down. I'll update you all with whether this makes much of a difference. Your thoughts?
​Any other advice, theories/strategies I could incorporate, please let me know. I may be a first time dog owner, but I have a **** of a lot of drive and determination not to let this dog down. During this month he will be muzzled around other people and dogs, and I will be very careful. 

If anyone could give me a tip on how to let him know biting is NOT ACCEPTABLE, even an air bite, please let me know. If I shout he gets petrified. But is that the best thing? Just give him one shout and then ignore him for a while? Do I send him to his bed? Or just ignore him full stop? Obviously when I do this I give him space and don't go towards him. Is this showing weakness though? This is where I'm confused. 

Thank you all again. You're really helping.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SBailey said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Thank you for your continued support and advice. It means a lot. After a very long night weighing up the negatives with the positives, I've come to the following conclusion:
> 
> ...


Does he have ball drive? And I would also rule out anything medically that could be wrong, I do not think that is a bad thing at all. Grumpy dogs can do mean stuff


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## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

llombardo - Yes he has a huge ball drive, but for the life of me I can't get him to bring the ball back to me. Even if I offer him high value treats. 

He knows he has to heel and sit before I throw the ball for him. I also make him do a few tricks before I throw it too.

This would be brilliant if I could just get him to bring it back grrrr.

p.s. We already do agility, but are starting fly ball in the next few months (once we pass this class).... Oh dear, how on earth would this work with a muzzle????


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SBailey said:


> llombardo - Yes he has a huge ball drive, but for the life of me I can't get him to bring the ball back to me. Even if I offer him high value treats.
> 
> He knows he has to heel and sit before I throw the ball for him. I also make him do a few tricks before I throw it too.
> 
> ...


 
I'm thinking to use the ball as a re-direction when he air snaps. If he has something in his mouth he can't air snap, right? My female GSD was an air snapper but grew out of it. They have balls that are on a rope that are used for training and it can be used as a tug to. What kind of balls do you use now? My male is high drive and whenever he or I think he is about to cause trouble I tell him or he goes and grabs a ball and just walks around squeezing it. It helps him release some of his energy. He sleeps with his ball


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> There are thousands of sound, nice dogs being euthanized all over the US every day. This dog has had every advantage from an owner who wants to do the right thing by training and looking for help.
> 
> There could be some underlying issue causing the dog not to want to be touched....I have a friend with a dog who has some undiagnosable issue which appears similar to fibromyalgia in people, touching her hurts her....she has spent thousands of dollars to try to figure out what is wrong with the dog...who will spend the rest of it's life on gabupentin (sp?) and tramadol.
> 
> ...


Exactly, Lee. And this kind of aggression tends to get worse with age. Trainers can't fix DNA.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I wrote a post and I deleted it, but I just can't be quiet. I have read threads like this over and over and now I just skim them. Advice on these things really need to come from someone that has physically seen the dog. No one and I mean no one can say over the internet what is going on. We have samples and stories from the OP, but so much gets lost in translation with writing. More stuff comes up and stuff is remembered, etc. Its just a very fine line when people start recommending stuff, especially to a first time dog owner. The first thing suggested should be to rule out anything medical, then get an evaluation. NILF is good and ideas along that line, etc. We don't know whats going on because we aren't there. Alrighty carry on.....


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## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

Thank you llombardo. Will do.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

llombardo said:


> I'm thinking to use the ball as a re-direction *when* air snaps. If he has something in his mouth he can't air snap, right? My female GSD was an air snapper but grew out of it. They have balls that are on a rope that are used for training and it can be used as a tug to. What kind of balls do you use now? My male is high drive and whenever he or I think he is about to cause trouble I tell him or he goes and grabs a ball and just walks around squeezing it. It helps him release some of his energy. He sleeps with his ball


_*REWARD WITH A BALL FOR THE BEHAVIOR YOU WANT TO STOP?????????


*_Lee


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Just a few comments: 

This isn't a dog that you can find someone more experienced to handle if it doesn't work. This is a dog that is lovingly and humanely let go. 

Keep in mind with NILIF that the behavior can become worse before better. This is especially important to keep in mind with a dog who is willing to go in for the bites that your dog has proven he will go for.

I truly hope you get a behaviorist/trainer who is very experienced in aggression involved. Get their eyes on the dog and you in a private class setting.

Playing ball - play 2 ball fetch - the 2nd ball doesn't get thrown till he brings the 1st back.

I should have read the whole thread first. For serious aggression such as this, using toys to redirect can and many times does increase the excitement level therefore a quicker aggressive response.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote "It's a safety thing, so if children enter the room, he leaves his bowl and there's no worry over food aggression"

there was never mention of children before -- would not allow this -- kids hug dogs -- stumble over dogs . You examined his legs and there is some pain registered .

Neither was there any mention of your mum living in the house --- same advice -- dog needs so much management at the moment


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## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

carmspack said:


> quote "It's a safety thing, so if children enter the room, he leaves his bowl and there's no worry over food aggression"
> 
> there was never mention of children before -- would not allow this -- kids hug dogs -- stumble over dogs . You examined his legs and there is some pain registered .
> 
> Neither was there any mention of your mum living in the house --- same advice -- dog needs so much management at the moment


*Carmspack* - I mentioned previously that there are no children. It was a safety measure for future incase there were any children (before I realised the severity of the situation). I would never let Bailey near children now. Also, my mother does not live with me, she visits every couple of weeks. It's a single occupancy home. 
*
Twyla *- Thank you for the advice. Two ball fetch is a great idea. And also thank you for the heads up on it getting worse before better with NILIF. Honestly, it's not much difference to how we normally live, so I don't see a huge improvement, but fingers crossed. Especially the 'No bed or sofa' situation will help. Just re-enforcing the 'What I say goes' mentality (for lack of better terminology) will help I hope. 

I'll keep you all updated on his progress. Thanks again for all your advice.


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## gsdrex (Dec 22, 2002)

SBailey - I'm impressed how you, especially as a first time dog owner, are seeking knowledge/tools and applying them to be a responsible dog owner. Sounds like you've already achieved a lot with this dog. However, obviously there is a very serious issue here. You have received a lot of great advice here - the best being that you need to get a qualified professional who can observe both of you. 

I've experienced/addressed aggression issues with all of my rescue GSDs, but the aggression has never been directed at me. The one thing I noted from your post is that each of the bites you received appeared to be triggered and not random/unpredictable. It will always be your responsibility to manage yourself and Bailey to ensure he is not triggered - especially when he is not muzzled and is exposed to other people in your home. Please, please, please continue to be vigilant about this. Also, hope you're using a basket muzzle when outside as it is better for breathing and getting treats when counter conditioning. (I wouldn't be pursuing flyball at this point unless private sessions and with safety precautions)

It also sounds like you recognize that if you cannot safely manage him, he will need to be humanely euthanized. I would also want to try everything possible first.

Have you taken him for a thorough medical check-up yet? Great news that the diet change seems to have had a positive effect. If you aren't already doing it, adding anti-inflammation supplements probably wouldn't hurt - e.g. quality fish oil, glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, Ester C etc.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

SBailey said:


> I can't face making the decision to end his life. No rescues would take him as he's a biter. And, more importantly, I don't WANT this to end so negatively.


How are you going to face it if it ends with him mauling someone and disfiguring them?


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## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

*Sunflowers* - Bailey has a basket muzzle that he wears when outside or around anyone other than myself. As for injury to myself, I've thought long and hard about it and I'm going to at least try for a month. I'm going to be very watchful of him and not push his limits. I want to see if the raw diet helps (no more allergies and upset stomach), and if his nails being clipped will stop any issues he has with being touched on his legs. If there's another bite, this will change things entirely.

*gsdrex* - Thank you for your comments. I've achieved so much with Bailey considering he was in such bad shape eight months ago when I had him. It is a serious issue, and I'm seeking help from a behaviourist. All the bites are trigger related, and when I look back I see the signs that I missed. 

I haven't taken him for a medical check up as it's the weekend and I live in the sticks. No vets open on the weekend here except for emergencies. I'll be ringing first thing Monday. As for adding anti-inflammatories, that's a great idea. However he is allergic to most things. I'm going to look for a natural alternative, fish maybe? I'll Google it. Thanks again for the advice.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You are in the UK. Is this a Golden retriever or a Golden mix? So here's another take. In the past there was a show CH Golden in The Netherlands who won about every show. He was bred many, many times and passed on a form of unpredictable aggression to his pups. The Golden retriever organization in that country traced him down. I had a client with a similar problem (when I lived there) in a Golden (he had punctured her abdomen) and I asked her if that certain dog was in the pedigree. It was. They immediately had him PTS. In that same time period I worked in a shelter and a beautiful Golden was brought in, well groomed and super obedient. The manager asked me to temperament test him as no-one understood what in the world that dog did in the shelter. Everything went great until...he wouldn't release a ball and I touched his muzzle to encourage release. If I hadn't pulled away as fast as I did he would have nailed me in my face. So this aggression surfaces when the dog is put under some form of pressure. Stay safe, I worry about your safety and please stop feeling guilty and this "I owe him" stuff. Sorry. Don't rehome him, ever because you may be liable and talk about guilt then!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SBailey said:


> 1. The most selfish - I can't face making the decision to end his life. No rescues would take him as he's a biter. And, more importantly, I don't WANT this to end so negatively. I HAVE to give it my all for one more month before trying to find someone more experienced to take him on. I hope more than anything it doesn't come to that.


I wish you could talk to my friend. There was a dog that I fostered on weekends for a local shelter. He displayed random aggressive behavior but overall was an incredibly sweet dog. We did not know if this behavior was due to his anxiety or due to being in a shelter environment. He had one bite when he was with me. We never saw it coming. He was happy, happy, happy...until he was not. Luckily, the girl was not hurt and had only a small wound. And she was incredibly understanding. But at that point, he was no longer adoptable.

When my friend decided to foster him as a training project for a class, we were ecstatic. THIS was his chance. He did beautifully through the class. Excelled at obedience. Was a complete love with them. Until he wasn't.

He would randomly display aggressive behavior towards them to the point that she was frightened of him. He would lay next to her on the couch and a second later lunging in her face. It only progressively worsened. 

They hired behaviorist. Ran medical tests. Took him to Cornell. Nothing they did helped. Unfortunately, Caspian was a danger to her and her husband.

She was, and still is, distraught at having to let Caspian go. But I'll tell you the same thing I told her. It is kinder to release them from whatever demons are plaguing them than to keep them here for our own selfish reasons. And you need to look to your own safety. You can not fix them all. Sometimes, just like people, they are not wired right.

You can not rehome this dog. Ever. That is not fair to the dog and it's not fair to any people who might want him. They would either think all dogs can be fixed, which they can't, or they would want an aggressive dogs for dubious reasons which will only put him in a bad place. 

Since he has three bites ON you. One was an actual kill shot if he was shaking your arm and wouldn't release. That muzzle needs to be on him all the time. You are playing with fire. 

In the end, you may view euthanization as a negative but it may be the kindest thing you can do for him.


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## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

*wolfy dog* - Thank you for your comments. I have no idea what mix he is. He looks like a Labrador x GSD. Here's two photos (please note they were taken before the bad bites):




















*gsdrex* - I've found this supplement which appears to be natural and popular on Amazon 



 I can't wait to try it! Thanks for the idea


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## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

Thank you *Jax08*. What you're saying is making a lot of sense


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I wish you could talk to my friend. There was a dog that I fostered on weekends for a local shelter. He displayed random aggressive behavior but overall was an incredibly sweet dog. We did not know if this behavior was due to his anxiety or due to being in a shelter environment. He had one bite when he was with me. We never saw it coming. He was happy, happy, happy...until he was not. Luckily, the girl was not hurt and had only a small wound. And she was incredibly understanding. But at that point, he was no longer adoptable.
> 
> When my friend decided to foster him as a training project for a class, we were ecstatic. THIS was his chance. He did beautifully through the class. Excelled at obedience. Was a complete love with them. Until he wasn't.
> 
> ...



I read this and the name of the dog sounded familiar. I knew of someone in my KPA class that took in a dog with that name for the class (her Berner was having health issues that made him difficult to train with)...

I looked her up on FB...low and behold same person. Boy it's a small world. I however didn't know the outcome of this situation. How terribly said for her, I know she had to have been absolutely heartbroken.

My boy Avery that I graduated KPA with passed in May of lymphoma..losing dogs sucks! Losing them young seems worse..

Sry to derail the thread Jax pm me if you want.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

One thing Cesar Millan got right, (and I will be the first one to tell you that Cesar doesn't do everything right) is the following:

We look at them as a loved one first, then name, then dog, then animal.

So he is a loved one, Bailey, a dog, and an animal, last.

We need to look at them as an animal first, a dog, name, and lastly, loved one.

Once we look at them that way, we have a more clear view of what we've got and what we need to do.
Sometimes because of our emotional investment, we lose sight of it, and make decisions that may not be the best ones for us, for people we come into contact with, or for our dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lauren43 said:


> I read this and the name of the dog sounded familiar. I knew of someone in my KPA class that took in a dog with that name for the class (her Berner was having health issues that made him difficult to train with)...
> 
> .



Super small world! Sent a PM. She lost her Berner also due to health reasons.


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## JoeyG (Nov 17, 2013)

First - horrible trainer, I don't know any situations where my own dog is allowed to bite or even nip at me.... you need to find someone actually competent.
Second I do think you're doing great and hats off to you for your effort but step back and see if you're in over your head.... if he bites someone else like that or even a child then what? Please look for professional help


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I wish you could talk to my friend. There was a dog that I fostered on weekends for a local shelter. He displayed random aggressive behavior but overall was an incredibly sweet dog. We did not know if this behavior was due to his anxiety or due to being in a shelter environment. He had one bite when he was with me. We never saw it coming. He was happy, happy, happy...until he was not. Luckily, the girl was not hurt and had only a small wound. And she was incredibly understanding. But at that point, he was no longer adoptable.
> 
> When my friend decided to foster him as a training project for a class, we were ecstatic. THIS was his chance. He did beautifully through the class. Excelled at obedience. Was a complete love with them. Until he wasn't.
> 
> ...


Although this is controversial to me, the whole essence of what you said here. I do think it fits this scenario quite well Jax, well said.

The good thing about dogs.. is they do not think about what is going on tomorrow.. They dont think about how they are supposed to live 14+ years for the breed and they are only 6 and have cancer.. They feel in the present. Something i wish us humans could learn to do more often. They do have feelings of fear, happiness, sadness, etc. But it is not as complex in the way humans have it. 

_Personally_ i support you either way OP. Dealing with a fear aggressive dog i know how life changing it is and how much work it is. Fortunately, i do not have to worry about her lunging at me or biting me hard like that.. But i do have to worry about her with strangers.

Someone told me of this book i have yet to read, about a lady who wrote a blog and turned it into a book called, "The Daily Coyote" [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Daily-Coyote-Story-Survival-Wyoming-ebook/dp/B001AO0GRW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416682180&sr=8-1&keywords=the+daily+coyote[/ame] about her bf at the time who hunted coyotes,etc. and there was a baby left after a hunt. He brought it home. And this lady raised it. It turned on her many times as it grew up, it respected her bf not her, so to get the dynamics back, she left her bf even to have a better relationship with it, etc. 
I am not giving my feelings on how i feel about it. 
But i always imagined that if she can live with a undomesticated coyote, because that was her decision. If you decide to live with this what might as well be an undomesticated coyote, you can do it. You just have to think of him less of what he was genetically and what you thought he was supposed to be. 
Only you can decide what you think is best for him. Its your life, his life and liability on the line. Its no easy choice.
If Zelda turned on me like your dog did, i would still keep her NO DOUBT, have her checked out, etc. But it _would_ change our relationship drastically, she would become the undomesticated coyote basically and less of a domesticated family dog, she was supposed to be. Until further notice of the behavior or what happened to her..


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I am so sorry you are going through this. My first dog was a terrible mouther who constantly left bruises and hurt me. We recently hired a trainer who has helped us. Hopefully you can find someone who can help you.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

To the OP: Kudos to you for keeping an open mind and trying to do right by thi dog. When I worked with gsd rescue we had to euthanize a couple of dogs who just weren't right in the head and it was heartbreaking but we tried to focus on the fact that we were freeing them from their demons. 

One of those dogs came up the leash at me just moments after I had been kneeling down and giving him treats and he had been kissing my face. He knew me pretty well as I had been going to his house and working with him for several weeks. It was terrifying. I still have the scar on my shoulder (my friend was able to pull him back or it would have been my face) and it reminds me that we can't save them all. 

I wish you the best of luck with your pup but please remember that we cannot fix everything. Sending all good thoughts your way!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> One of those dogs came up the leash at me just moments after I had been kneeling down and giving him treats and he had been kissing my face. He knew me pretty well as I had been going to his house and working with him for several weeks. It was terrifying. I still have the scar on my shoulder (my friend was able to pull him back or it would have been my face) !




Exactly what my mother's Peke did.

I would give her treats, and after finishing the last one she would bite me.
I can't imagine having a German Shepherd do that. Thank goodness it wasn't your face or neck!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Where's David Winners? Maybe he can evaluate the dog for her. 

I kind of agree with Carmen and get the dog to a vet and do some x-rays first. See if you are dealing with some serious ouchy stuff. Just because the dog is a mixture does not mean that it doesn't have some serious HD or ED or other stuff going on. 

In a week's time, the dog is going from one home to another and being walked off its feet, and followed, and grabbed at, and ... It doesn't trust you yet, and you are being terribly familiar with the dog. Maybe the dog is seriously dangerous. The bite-shake is most concerning. The bite for moving the dog from its position on the couch, not so much so, because the dog is showing restraint -- marks, not blood, etc. 

I am not sure where in the UK you are. One thing, I think England, if you can manage to get a dog euthanized at a vet, it may be nearly impossible to get another from a shelter situation. 

I just don't know. If the dog comes from an abusive situation, and suddenly, you are yelling at the dog and following it into a room, and grabbing at it, I can see that not ending well. 

The questions I think you need to answer for yourself is whether or not the aggression is completely random and unpredictable. It doesn't seem so from what you wrote. The dog Michelle wrote about sounded very unpredictable. I agree that re-homing this dog is probably not a question, unless you can find someone who is a working dog expert, and a trainer.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Selzer said 
Just because the dog is a mixture does not mean that it doesn't have some serious HD or ED or other stuff going on. 

In a week's time, the dog is going from one home to another and being walked off its feet, and followed, and grabbed at, and ... It doesn't trust you yet, and you are being terribly familiar with the dog"

yeah , if you are wanting to do the best for the dog you are going to have to spend some time and money. 
I would do X RAYS . In your avatar and the pictures on page 6 the dog seems to favour the right side . In the standing picture the right fore leg is away and forward .
In the avatar and the sitting picture that same leg is away and forward -- like a tripod -- and in the avatar and the sitting picture the right rear is rolled under so that the dog is not sitting square but on its flank .








Yesterday, 12:07 PM #*54* (*permalink*) SBailey 
Junior Member

 

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 31 










*wolfy dog* - Thank you for your comments. I have no idea what mix he is. He looks like a Labrador x GSD. Here's two photos (please note they were taken before the bad bites):








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​ ​ The dog's aggression is triggered by something . The way you have described things there doesn't seem to be random aggression or even fear or avoidance.​ ​ ​


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I agree with medical 100% first. I am dealing with a dog with severe hip dysplasia and this is what I was told and it makes sense...when they have hip dysplasia they can be in pain but they also shift their weight to the front part of the body which can cause neck and shoulder issues. I was advised to see a chiropractor with mine so things can be adjusted. Maybe he air snaps when you go for his collar because he is in pain? I would suggest that he is under some kind of sedation if X-rays are done, just in case, because he will probably bite to protect himself.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Absolutely full medical first!!! OP- my post was not to tell you to euthanize him. But to explain sometimes it is out of our control. Go do the full medical. Go find a GOOD behaviorist. See if you can find those triggers. Just use caution and get a muzzle on him at all times for your safety and others.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have read most and scanned a few posts. 

Agree- 100% medical first.

I like that you are giving Bailey one month. 

But as Sunflowers said, you may have to step back and look hard at this. 

If this were my dog and I had vetted fully, gotten professional help and still felt unsafe I would have to do the hard thing and euthanise the dog. It would break my heart but it would be the right thing to do. Some dogs are just not fixable.  

I do hope you find a reason and can fix it. Kudos to you for giving Bailey the benefit.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I like Sunflowers don't understand the need for so many to save everything, regardless of circumstances.

Having owned a less than perfect GSD with many issues, Dog aggression being the big one. The responsibility and steps we had to take to make sure he was never given the opportunity to injure a dog was enormous. I honestly can't imagine the responsibility of owning a dog you KNOW will harm a person, that also includes you the owner. Now I loved my less than perfect boy but I could never live with a dog I knew would hurt me intentionally. I could not live with a dog that was such a risk to the public.

I would have a thorough medical exam done to rule out any and all possibility that the cause is a medical issue. Should they not find anything to explain the aggression, I would most definitely release this poor dog from whatever demons he is experiencing.

I cannot imagine taking on this kind of dog now, and that is after years of owning dogs. To have this in your life as your first dog is robbing you of the joy you should be experiencing.

I am honestly hoping there is a medical issue going on that is 1. the cause of this aggression and 2. is treatable. 

There ARE good dogs out there that NEED owners like you to save them, dogs that will show you nothing but the love you deserve from a dog.

Good luck and think hard. In the meantime, please be safe and keep everyone around you safe.


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Agree with llombardo. 

I have yet to meet a pet owner who conveyed all the important info over the phone or internet. People simply don't realize the triggers. If they did, we wouldnt have these situations. Sometimes it's something they're doing subconsciously that triggers the problem (like choking up on a leash when they see another dog, then saying the dog is dog aggressive, not realizing they're causing the behavior) and sometimes it's leaving out details that they don't deem important but can change the WHOLE outlook.

Just recently I had a situation where I was on the phone for nearly 2 hours trying to help a couple with their GSD and all they were telling me said the dog needed to be taken down a notch. Then they let a tiny detail slip that they didn't think was an issue at all and it gave me a TOTALLY different picture of what was happening and it turns out it's a neurological problem. 

You CANNOT work this out online. I have had a rescue who did that snap and air bite thing and he would bite if you pushed him- he was very obviously abused (and I do NOT throw that "abused" moniker around lightly) and actually had a very large (my thumb fit in it) hole in his skull. Vet wasn't sure if he'd been shot or beaten with a pipe. That gave him a pass FOR A LITTLE WHILE. But as he trusted me, the behavior lessened and he never actually did bite me- he was worse with my fiance, who didn't like him, and he understandably made him more nervous. By the time he died, we had no problem unless he was taken by surprise by a man who came up behind him (he was old and almost deaf). He kept his head and would warn nastily, but he was not grabbing and shaking his handler. And, another thing in common, he had very serious neck pain. There were days he could hardly turn one direction (he was 11 when I got him- he'd been left at animal control) and I definitely think pain was part of it, but I think whatever caused the pain also had behavioral consequences, ie, severe mistreatment. He was a sighthound mix (Lurcher) and the gentlest soul. 

The OP's dog may have similar history and lesser genetics or vice versa or a different problem all together. Laugh if you want- but I knew a puppy who had a reaction to his rabies shot and behaved like this. Since he was only a baby it was obviously investigated and he was treated but my point is, no one knows what this dog's deal is. He may be genetically a nightmare, or he might have a learned behavior problem. Either way, he's dangerous as **** in inexperienced hands. 

You MUST seek very very experienced help IN PERSON, from someone who will observe the way you interact with him. One thing I noted- you say you back away from every growl. You are rewarding him for growling at you by giving him the desired reaction. This is extremely dangerous and puts him in the driver's seat and puts you in a subservient position which is a no-go for a dog like this.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Laugh if you want- but I knew a puppy who had a reaction to his rabies shot and behaved like this.


Finally somebody mentioning this. I have mentioned it more often but is seems to be ignored. *Rabies Vaccinosis*. I had to put down a dog like that, my very own dog, after everything else failed (veterinary behavioral consulting, training and meds,etc. I only found out after reading an article and realizing that dog fitted several symptoms of it.
He was a dream dog until he hit the 5 year mark.
Rabies Vaccinosis Alert       by


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Google rabies miasm. 

It can be VERY scary. I don't think it's super common, but I think it's more common than people think. AND- I think it can compound other neuro issues. I know when my old mutt w/the "aggression issue" got his last rabies shot he was MUCH worse for several weeks. I treated him for rabies miasm, as I treat any dog I have vaccinated.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Google rabies miasm.
> 
> It can be VERY scary. I don't think it's super common, but I think it's more common than people think. AND- I think it can compound other neuro issues. I know when my old mutt w/the "aggression issue" got his last rabies shot he was MUCH worse for several weeks. I treated him for rabies miasm, as I treat any dog I have vaccinated.


Very interesting info. How do you treat dogs you have vaccinated? I have a couple that are due for shots soon and I would be interested in being proactive.


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## SBailey (Nov 13, 2014)

Hi All,

A quick update...

I took Bailey to the vet. After reading all your posts, especially carmspack's post about Bailey favouring his leg and not sitting properly in the photos, I asked them to look at his legs. They discovered his front legs were very tender, and also his shoulders. They believe it's joint pain that has been made worse by the cold weather (it's suddenly got colder in the UK in the last 3 weeks). This accounts for the last bite where he wasn't scared, just didn't want me clipping his nails. He's now on Glycosamine based tablets to help his joints and cushion them. I'll let you know how this goes, but obviously we're not going to see a huge turn around quickly. His walks are very short (he's more than happy with that), and I limit his play where I can. He's not that mobile anyway. 

I've also booked him in for a two hour consultation with the 'welsh dog whisperer'. The guy looks great and wants to introduce Bailey to his pack of 5 dobermans. He deals with aggressive dogs. However, we're not doing this for a few weeks until the tablets (hopefully) take effect. We're also skipping dog agility and obedience classes until he seems in less pain. 

This is all positive in my eyes. Even though the fact he has bitten me a few times is still a major cause for concern and still needs to be addressed. 

Thank you all again for your tips and advice. I would never have thought to check him medically for a reason why. You're all great, thank you.

I'll update this after his consultation, just to let you know how it goes  If it's positive feedback or not. Fingers crossed!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SBailey said:


> Hi All,
> 
> A quick update...
> 
> ...



I believe fish oil would help with the joints. I would have them do X-rays on the back end because hip dysplasia will cause him to put pressure on the front part of the body. It would be beneficial for you to know everything so you can help him.


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

My older dog has joint issues. He gets chicken feet and it always seems to help because of the glucosamine/chondroitin. I know you feed raw anyhow but I would include some of those in his diet if you don't already.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I'm surprised the vet didn't give you something for the dog's pain. 

While I understand that the biting could be a reaction from the pain, I'm also well aware that there are many, many dogs out there with horrendous pain who would never consider biting their owners. I still think there are serious behavioral issues at play here, so please don't give him too much slack and assume it will all go away if his pain is eliminated.


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Totally agree with Pawsed. 

I have carried and moved dogs in TREMENDOUS pain without even a thought that they might bite me. 

We may have identified a TRIGGER, but we have not solved the problem. He is still dangerous.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Very interesting info. How do you treat dogs you have vaccinated? I have a couple that are due for shots soon and I would be interested in being proactive.


Homeopathics a week before and after the vaccination. NaturalRearing.com :: Loading Website... Very helpful small company


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Very interesting info. How do you treat dogs you have vaccinated? I have a couple that are due for shots soon and I would be interested in being proactive.


Homeopathics a week before and after the vaccination. NaturalRearing.com :: Loading Website... Very helpful small company
The other vaccines at least single and two weeks apart.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Totally agree with Pawsed.
> 
> I have carried and moved dogs in TREMENDOUS pain without even a thought that they might bite me.
> 
> We may have identified a TRIGGER, but we have not solved the problem. He is still dangerous.


Agreed 100% Do not let your guard down and keep your face away from his. Know that , before they bite, dogs will briefly at the body part that will be bitten. It happens in a flash of a second so be aware.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

I was a dog's 3rd bite. To make a long story short, I was at a house to check out the property to see if I wanted to rent it. The current tenants were on-site as was the owner. At no time did the current tenants tell me not to go into the yard or that they had an aggressive dog. The owner and I went downstairs, then outside into the yard to walk around the house. The dog came down at me off the porch and bit me in the hand, then circled me as I backed up through a side door. The current tenant came running downstairs and his wife yelled at me that I shouldn't have gone outside. The owner of the house didn't know the tenant had the dog, and he was furious. The current tenant told me that I was the third person the dog had bitten. Once I reported it, I discovered that the other two bites had not reported so consequently the dog was quarantined and then allowed to stay with its owners. My question was this: What if I had been a child? The dog jumped up to bite and I blocked with my forearm/hand, hence the hand bite. That was about the height of a child's face. I am all for saving our 4-legged furbabies, but in this case that dog had 2 other chances for his owner's to help him...and they didn't. 

Now, in your case it is clear you are actively seeking assistance, which I commend you for. But please keep in mind that your dog is a liability and if you are not 100% committed to following through with training/rehabilitation/prevention then you should seriously consider what is in the best interest of the dog. And, even with professional help the issue may not be something that can be "cured" or even managed. I don't mean to be debbie downer, and I seriously hope things will turn out ok! But...you have to be safe AND smart.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Totally agree with Pawsed.
> 
> I have carried and moved dogs in TREMENDOUS pain without even a thought that they might bite me.
> 
> We may have identified a TRIGGER, but we have not solved the problem. He is still dangerous.


Yep. I have a 7 year old dysplasic dog that the vet diagnosed at 8 months old. Even though she has a very real reason to be in pain, she has never considered biting me or anyone else. I have also vetted my dogs with various injuries over the years including a tail degloving with partial amputation, multiple pad injuries, lacerations requiring sutures, and cactus needles in the dog's nose/muzzle without worrying about them biting me. This dog is still dangerous and his behavior would not be acceptable to me.


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## Lark (Jan 27, 2014)

osito23 said:


> Yep. I have a 7 year old dysplasic dog that the vet diagnosed at 8 months old. Even though she has a very real reason to be in pain, she has never considered biting me or anyone else. I have also vetted my dogs with various injuries over the years including a tail degloving with partial amputation, multiple pad injuries, lacerations requiring sutures, and cactus needles in the dog's nose/muzzle without worrying about them biting me. This dog is still dangerous and his behavior would not be acceptable to me.


I had the world's nicest lab, and he ended up with a pretty horrific back problem. He was in terrible pain, and he tried to bite a tech at the vet hospital when his back was palpated. We were all completely shocked. I don't think that somehow means all of his years of being a perfect pet were negated in the one instance he tried to bite. Animals (including humans) act out of character if they are in extreme pain.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Lark said:


> I had the world's nicest lab, and he ended up with a pretty horrific back problem. He was in terrible pain, and he tried to bite a tech at the vet hospital when his back was palpated. We were all completely shocked. I don't think that somehow means all of his years of being a perfect pet were negated in the one instance he tried to bite. Animals (including humans) act out of character if they are in extreme pain.


I never said they didn't or that it was never acceptable. Biting a vet tech palpating a painful injury is different than biting the owner multiple times for everyday things. Read the OP again. I worked at a vet clinic when I was in school and am a nurse now, so I am well aware of how people and animals act when in pain.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" Bailey favouring his leg and not sitting properly in the photos, I asked them to look at his legs. They discovered his front legs were very tender, and also his shoulders. "

so that was confirmed . Glucosamine is not enough. Do the X RAYS see how much arthritic damage there is .

MSM 
anti inflammatory vitamin C (real) , omega 3 .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Agree with Carmen, glaucosomine is not enough to deal with the pain. It may, over time help the joints, but let's do something for the pain in the mean time. 

And, all of you who are talking about biting the owner, let's remember that this dog has just joined this family. He is in pain, and people he does not trust yet are grabbing his collar, physically moving him off couches, etc. If the dog has been with the family for years, I would be very surprised that he would actually bite for these things. 

But we really do not know what happened to this dog. This dog may have grumbled or growled when its previous owners did things that made his painful parts hurt more, and he may have been clobbered for making these noises. We just don't know. The dog does have medical reasons for pain, and the owner, knowing that, can now tell the dog to get off the couch, and not try to grab the dog by the collar, etc. It is good information, and she can try to manage the pain. 

I think it is unfair to a dog to expect them to act the same to someone they have known for a week or so, as we would expect them to act to someone they have known all their lives. Yes, the OP should be careful with the dog because we know that if the dog is hurting or is afraid she will hurt him, he may react in a less than pretty manner. I hope that for this dog, pain management, and adjusting how the owner gets the dog to do things will make for a happy ending for canine and human, and both canine and human will build trust in each other.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

selzer said:


> And, all of you who are talking about biting the owner, let's remember that this dog has just joined this family. He is in pain, and people he does not trust yet are grabbing his collar, physically moving him off couches, etc. If the dog has been with the family for years, I would be very surprised that he would actually bite for these things.


You don't think 8 months is long enough for a dog to form an attachment and get to know the people he lives with?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I find it really odd that the vet has suggested just glucosamine for tenderness knowing the dog has inflicted some severe bites on the owner as a result of suspected pain....am I alone here?

This dog needs a much more thorough exam and treatment plan if pain is indeed the cause of aggression in this case.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm surprised the vet didn't put him on rimadyl or previcoxx for anti-inflammatory. Even tramadol for the pain. Personally, my vet doesn't like rimadyl. He's seen it send dogs into kidney failure.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I am glad that you have been able to diagnose some ongoing pain, so that he can be treated accordingly. 

I caution you, however, not to write off his aggression as being due to pain. Not all of the situations you described, nor the bites that occurred, are in my opinion how a dog would respond to a painful stimulus. Maybe, but I am not convinced. 

I hope that pain meds will help him, but please don't let your guard down, as I don't believe that is the only issue you are facing.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I agree that glucosamine is not going to be enough. I wonder about tick disease with all of those areas tender? And I did have a very nice, non-aggressive dog who almost bit me from pain. 

Kudos to the OP for taking her dog to the vet and making an appointment with a behaviorist experienced in dealing with aggressive dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> You don't think 8 months is long enough for a dog to form an attachment and get to know the people he lives with?


Yeah, that's long enough, for some reason I thought she had the dog for about a month. 

Evenso, some dogs are just super tolerant pain or no pain, while other dogs act out of character when in serious pain or fear. Leaving red marks and not drawing blood or bruising sounds like a bite that is telling you not to do that, it hurts. The other bites, while earlier, are more disturbing.


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