# My pups father, please explain structure of him compared to true working line



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Hey guys....I recently purchased a new pup...he is now 13 weeks old....This is my 2nd GSD. My first one is no longer with us  My pups father is showline, but he def has a working line attitude. He is now 3 years old and the kennel just recently started him on his protection training. He is coming along very well....My pups grandfather Ken Vom Rosenblick is also excelled in his SchH protection score. 95, 96, and 94.... I've talked to the owner of Ken, and he said Ken is one of his best studs. Ken came from Dux de Cuatro Flores. All are German bloodline. Western Germany I'm pretty sure. 

Here is a picture of my pups father. When looking at the structure, angles, etc, what am I looking for? I'm aware of the American bloodlines and the "roachback", which I don't like at all....When looking at my pups father, how does the structure look, etc....I'm trying to learn this aspect of it. Showline vs working line. I know showline GSD can be great dogs. I've been around a lot of my breeders dog, and they are all great dogs, from my view anyways. Temperament is great on them I think he looks very good, but this is coming from my a novice opinion. Can someone explain this to me in "English" ...lol.... Also, when measuring the withers, how do I go about doing this....Sorry for the rookie questions. I will post some of my pups mother also later. 
I couldn't upload my pups father. It said I need to reformat it, which I can't do on my IPad that I'm aware of...So i will post a couple pictures of his grandfather. They look very similar. My apologies.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Another picture of his grandfather. Hopefully in a few years, I will be ready for a true working line GSD. I might not have to if my pup turns into plenty of dog for me. If not, it doesn't matter. I figured this would be a great building block for me. I personally think I'm not experienced enough at this time to handle/train one correctly. I would hate purchasing a great working line GSD and not capable of training him right. I would probably run into issue if I tried. Not willing to risk it yet with boys only being 4.5 and 1 1/2 years old


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jmoore728 said:


> Another picture of his grandfather. Hopefully in a few years, I will be ready for a true working line GSD. I might not have to if my pup turns into plenty of dog for me. If not, it doesn't matter. I figured this would be a great building block for me. I personally think I'm not experienced enough at this time to handle/train one correctly. I would hate purchasing a great working line GSD and not capable of training him right. I would probably run into issue if I tried. Not willing to risk it yet with boys only being 4.5 and 1 1/2 years old
> View attachment 151698


Just wanted to say, a good working line pup isn't some crazy, neurotic, psycho, that the average home can't handle. Sure they need exercise, mental stimulation, and all the other things pups/dogs need, but they def aren't impossible or for *only experienced owners. I have a 12 week old working line, and so far he's been ten times easier than my showline was (granted the showline didn't come from great lines). Even at 12 weeks he's not super hyper (other than normal puppy stuff), he picks up on stuff super quick, was potty trained in hours, he just seems in tune with me. It's awesome! I just wanted to say, you would probably be fine with a working line OR a showline. I hate that some people just think working lines are these insane dogs and they are intimidated to have them. There are plenty here with showline and working line dogs...they're def different, but I bet most would say their working lines are a joy and a lot of them don't "work" them...they're family dogs, and other than the basic family obedience, they just enjoy their families. They don't know or care that they aren't doing IPO, protection, agility, flyball, etc....They just want to be with their families. Just saying, you should give yourself a little more credit. You would probably do just fine with a working line dog OR a showline. 

Oh, and i have a 2 year old son, and kids over all the time. Pup does great with them.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> Just wanted to say, a good working line pup isn't some crazy, neurotic, psycho, that the average home can't handle. Sure they need exercise, mental stimulation, and all the other things pups/dogs need, but they def aren't impossible or for *only experienced owners. I have a 12 week old working line, and so far he's been ten times easier than my showline was (granted the showline didn't come from great lines). Even at 12 weeks he's not super hyper (other than normal puppy stuff), he picks up on stuff super quick, was potty trained in hours, he just seems in tune with me. It's awesome! I just wanted to say, you would probably be fine with a working line OR a showline. I hate that some people just think working lines are these insane dogs and they are intimidated to have them. There are plenty here with showline and working line dogs...they're def different, but I bet most would say their working lines are a joy and a lot of them don't "work" them...they're family dogs, and other than the basic family obedience, they just enjoy their families. They don't know or care that they aren't doing IPO, protection, agility, flyball, etc....They just want to be with their families. Just saying, you should give yourself a little more credit. You would probably do just fine with a working line dog OR a showline.
> 
> Oh, and i have a 2 year old son, and kids over all the time. Pup does great with them.


agree 110%. its such a common misconception. a working line dog doesnt have more energy than a show line dog. they dont run around the house non stop being hyper all the time. the main difference is that when they are working/training/in drive then you get great focus and energy and enthusiasm out of them. when we are training my dog is 110 miles per hour and is completely focused on the task. his body oozes with excitement and he WANTS to work. inside he can be as big of a couch potato as any show line dog. he can lay around and watch a movie with me or he can go lay on his bed and play by himself. if i nap then he naps. there are days where im busy/lazy and he gets no exercise and does fine (a little bratty but fine). my dog is only super intense while training. he has a great off switch even as a pup and has free run of the house the moment he was potty trained. working line pups arent crazy and full of energy and cant sit still. hate that misconception.

your pups dad has the color of a show line and the structure of a show line. i like the good deep pigmentation though. just enjoy your pup! dont go compare him to a bunch of youtube videos or you'll just put too much pressure on your pup and could end up disappointed (speaking from experience).


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> agree 110%. its such a common misconception. a working line dog doesnt have more energy than a show line dog. they dont run around the house non stop being hyper all the time. the main difference is that when they are working/training/in drive then you get great focus and energy and enthusiasm out of them. when we are training my dog is 110 miles per hour and is completely focused on the task. his body oozes with excitement and he WANTS to work. inside he can be as big of a couch potato as any show line dog. he can lay around and watch a movie with me or he can go lay on his bed and play by himself. if i nap then he naps. there are days where im busy/lazy and he gets no exercise and does fine (a little bratty but fine). my dog is only super intense while training. he has a great off switch even as a pup and has free run of the house the moment he was potty trained. working line pups arent crazy and full of energy and cant sit still. hate that misconception.
> 
> your pups dad has the color of a show line and the structure of a show line. i like the good deep pigmentation though. just enjoy your pup! dont go compare him to a bunch of youtube videos or you'll just put too much pressure on your pup and could end up disappointed (speaking from experience).


Thank you both. I did perceive a working line GSD as something I couldn't handle. Glad you guys cleared that up. I will take that in consideration in the years to come. Right now I get great focus from Bane when marker training (food drive right now) ....Hopefully I can get the same results with a toy later on as he matures. As far as building his drive, I'm working on it, but I think it will get better as he gets a little older and more attention span. I'm pretty sure I'm worrying about this too much. I just need to relax and go with the flow. Whatever he has to offer, will be just fine with my family.....You are correct, the you tube videos has me thinking to much....I can't compare some of the Mal pup videos with my GSD....Or some of the older, mature GSD with a 13 week old pup....Thanks for the info, and I will just continue building the bond with my pup. As long as he is healthy, etc, ill be fine.....My first GSD was a nightmare with medical issues! but that was 100% the breeders fault. Bur she was great with my family. She was way over protective when on walks, etc. Made it tough at times but she was very loyal to us.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think some are some are not. Some of the dogs being bred for police service work can be a handful and I am pretty sure more working line dogs wind up in police service and SAR and other working occupations than show line dogs. 

I have one that can settle in his crate or a pen, but is non stop and very hard to live with and that is speaking from having GSDs continuously since 1985. Great temperament, solid nerves, but very pushy, very inquisitive and very active.

You have plenty of time to explore the differences; there are lots of shades of gray I think, particularly as many folks are breeding working line dogs for pets to get "dark sables"  so it blurs the distinctions.

EDIT- I was talking with a teammate the other day who also has the kind of dog not so easy to live with. A very hard pushy dog. We both agreed we have dogs we could not have managed 10 years ago, but they are probably the best dogs we have ever had for the SAR (cadaver) work we do. Structure wise the most common complaints I have heard about the WL dogs are straight shoulders and long back where with the show lines you see more of the roached back (some of which is a problem, others it is a stacking illusion)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The structure in the show ring is not that much different than the working lines....it is the type - the size, more substance and color - that are fashionable. The typical working line dog is critiqued as needing improvement in angulation, shouler, front and rear, length of forearm and croup....these are not greatly detrimental issues in the majority of dogs....yes - a straight shoulder and forearm make a less attractive, ground covering gait than a sloping shoulder and longer forearm....but it does NOT diminish the working ability of the dog! Actual real farm herding dogs are more likely to be working line dogs in Germany as per Wilfred Scheld. There is fashionable structure, ie showlines, and functional structure, ie working lines. There are ranges in both types.

As far as working line dogs as companions, yes - some ARE too much for the novice owner....some are not. The key is finding a dog who is bred by someone who understands what they are breeding, rather than throwing together whatever dogs they own, have handy or based on how many BSP/WUSV etc dogs are in the pedigree. This is much harder to ascertain.

Lee


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> I'm aware of the American bloodlines and the "roachback", which I don't like at all....


American showlines aren'troached in the back. They do tend to have longer thighs which gives them a slope to their toplines.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog you pictured looks very nice. He is not roached. His top line looks ok. I don't like his feet, but if they bred him to a bitch with good feet, then I think that would tend to improve. He has a very nice head, good expression and good color.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

*some* working line dogs are not good for novice owners, just like *some* show line dogs. A lot depends on what the dog is bred for. There are certainly some bloodlines that are more serious, sharp, handler-hard, pushy, energetic, etc. that do best with an experienced handler. But there is a wide range. I think the key with working line dogs is to find dogs with solid nerves, high thresholds, and biddability. Those dogs can actually make good pets, because their temperament can handle everyday situations without being nervous, fearful, or defensive. They are eager to please, quick to learn, and forgiving. Of course ALL GSDs (and really all dogs) need training, socialization, and exercise. Working lines tend to have a lot of drive, but should be calm and content to lie at your feet when nothing is going on.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Thank you guys very much....My first GSD (female), we only had a short 4 1/2 years with her. When on walks, she was WAY over protective of my family. The breeder actually had some great working lines, but she was just breeding without putting any thought in it. She created some pups with plenty of structural problems and not handing papers over, etc. But she had crazy drive and was very, very good with my family and friends....Starngers she would focus in on with laser precision....Her main drawback, she didn't like other dogs. We had a few encounters with her and our Shih Tzu....Never major injuries, but we were fortunate. It happened random and very quick....On walks, it was tough at times when we came across other dogs.....she acted like they was a threat to us. She would walk right beside the stroller at all time....she was a very loyal dog to us, and I wish we would of for many more years with her... 

Right now, my pup is def a handful. He is very very mouthy and my ankles have taken a beating....Man those puppy teeth are SO sharp....I suck it up and redirect him....We did teach him from day one, our 1.5 year old son was off limits. My 4 year old engages him by running to get him to chase him...I'm working to break my son of this....I told him this will create a bad habit and he doesn't want a 90lb dog chasing him and knocking him down. My son wants to be just like daddy and thinks he is a professional trainer....He even picked a certain coat out and told me it was his dog training coat....It causes more work and patience on my part, but I want him be involved with Bane. Bane does have rather large feet.....His mother isn't the red and black....a lot more black. She is very confident.....I only got to see her a couple times after having puppies, so her weight was down a little. Thr breeder bred Mako with her to put more or his working attitude and protection in this litter. Also to improve of the pigmentation (if this is the correct term) and add more red....Her focus was Mako's good working habits, grip! protection. Makos grandfather Ken also had these qualities. Hopefully,it carried over to my pup along with their great temperament 

I need to learn to shorten up my posts,,,,I keep typing novels out


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Did the American bloodlines start the roachback look and is that what judges are looking for in American GSD shows? The straighter backs look for structurally stable to me. Just my view, I could be totally wrong


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The "roach" is more a characteristic of the GERMAN showlines. The American showlines tend to have more angulation in the legs than German dogs but typically have a straight back. There is a lot of overlap between all the different lines, though.

To call a dog roached you really need to see them moving around as the way many dogs are stacked (posed for evaluation) can make a normal dog look as though they have a hump in their back, yet they actually may have a straight back.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jmoore728 said:


> Did the American bloodlines start the roachback look and is that what judges are looking for in American GSD shows? The straighter backs look for structurally stable to me. Just my view, I could be totally wrong



No, American show lines (my dog pictured below) do not have a "roached" back.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Jmoore: trying to learn the differences between working line, german show line, and American show line takes time and effort. You can go to the "Critique My Dog" to get some great info on conformation. Learning the differences in temperament can be more difficult. The best way to do that is take your dog training , learn about him, and then while you are around other GSD, you will learn about them as well. I wouldn't be in a hurry for your next dog..take your time and work/teach/play/train your current puppy. Your current puppy will teach you so much. As you start to learn what you like in a dog, you can start to research breeders and meet folks that have dogs with the attributes you like. 

I researched and studied about GSD for two years before I got my puppy. Yea, I guess I am a slow learner and I still don't know much. But, I went for a breeding that was dog/human friendly and I had met some of the relatives. Max has been perfect for me, as a beginner. We have just started going to a Club and he is so fun. Here is a picture of him. He just has basic working line conformation and a great, biddable, fun, goofy, temperament.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

dogfaeries said:


> No, American show lines (my dog pictured below) do not have a "roached" back.


Very pretty GSD. I would be a proud owner....


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

ponyfarm said:


> Jmoore: trying to learn the differences between working line, german show line, and American show line takes time and effort. You can go to the "Critique My Dog" to get some great info on conformation. Learning the differences in temperament can be more difficult. The best way to do that is take your dog training , learn about him, and then while you are around other GSD, you will learn about them as well. I wouldn't be in a hurry for your next dog..take your time and work/teach/play/train your current puppy. Your current puppy will teach you so much. As you start to learn what you like in a dog, you can start to research breeders and meet folks that have dogs with the attributes you like.
> 
> I researched and studied about GSD for two years before I got my puppy. Yea, I guess I am a slow learner and I still don't know much. But, I went for a breeding that was dog/human friendly and I had met some of the relatives. Max has been perfect for me, as a beginner. We have just started going to a Club and he is so fun. Here is a picture of him. He just has basic working line conformation and a great, biddable, fun, goofy, temperament.


Thanks for the advice. Max looks line an awesome GSD...I'm def in no hurry for another one. That will be years down the road. Bane already has me pulling my hair out...lol....Got to love the puppy stage. But he is fun...I love the character of GSD and it will be fun watching him mature and learn new things.....


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