# The "good old dogs"



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I had a great surprise today - the TD/helper for our club that just split came by for a little visit while he was in the area!

Recently our TD/helper became ill and was forced to give up the sport and our 'helper in training' moved to a different club which left us with only a few members. We have still been meeting and working on obedience and soon tracking and so he stopped by to help us with our "helper search".

Anyways, as we were talking he kept saying that Stark reminded him of the "good old dogs" from the past.

His structure was moderate, not your typical working line or showline but a nice balance of the two. Drives were not over the top and he could work from both sides (I am asumming he meant defense and prey?), great nerve and just reminded him of the 'good old dogs'.

In terms of structure, I really like Stark's. If I could change one thing about his structure it would be his hocks and possibly his easty-westy front but I have noticed that changing as he fills out and his chest dropping.

10-12 months (can't remember when the photo was taken):









20-21 months









It was a very nice compliment coming from him.

*I guess I am curious what others would consider "good old dogs"? Which dogs from the past and now in the present would you consider "good old dogs?" 

I know this is going to be subjective because everyone has their own opinion on what the GSD should be but I think it could be a very interesting topic.*


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I don't have much to say on the "good old dogs" but I've always thought Stark's structure reminded me of my Logan... But then I don't have the most developed eye for that!! So I hope this doesn't end up being insulting 

(I wish I had some better pictures online!!)

















(odd posture...)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Glad to hear your TD/Helper is out and about. I bet it was a wonderful visit for you!
Good old Dogs can still be found today....I'm sure of that!!!
Both Stark and Logan are handsome guys!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Lin, definitely a compliment!

Wowzers - gorgeous colouring!!!

Jane, I agree they can be found. Not sure I would consider Stark one of the "good old dogs" but my TD thinks so, I'll take the compliment! 

He was so happy to be out and visiting, his granddaughter and son came with him and we all had a nice visit. I wasn't expecting them to buzz up so it was a very nice surprise! In true fashion, he demanded.. I mean, asked...  what Stark and I were working on and to show him.... lol. He was impressed with his flip finish which made me proud because I basically (with the help of my breeder via skype) did it all on my own!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I guess I will throw this question out there as well:

*What characteristics would YOU consider to make up the 'old type dogs'?*


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Well.... This is why I didn't have anything to say right off 

I disagree with the hype about the "good old dogs." I understand the sentiment, people are nostalgic for the past. And with many of the extremes present in the various lines I understand the strong sentiment from many. BUT, we usually remember primarily the good of the past and not the bad. In my mind, the "old type dogs" would be when they resembled the malinois. But then I'm going from education on breed history, not specific experience working with the breed for decades. Breeding is done for a purpose... Responsible breeding improves the breed. Like the ubiquitous "straight back" issue... The dogs were bred for more drive in the rear, lower HQ for a reason. No its not pretty (or functional) when taken to an extreme. But when well bred I believe we're better off with many of the changes since the "good old dogs." And think its mostly people yearning for a past that they are romanticizing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

"Responsible breeding improves the breed" is subject to the breeders interpretation of what is "improvement".

I'd rather have a responsible breeder breed within the breed standard rather than improving upon it. That is what has caused the downfall in this breed, when breeders believe what they are doing to improve vs breeding within the standard and having breeding stock that is proven to do what it takes to be breedworthy. 
And after the dog is proven breedworthy, you do the best to match dam/sire to produce another generation of breedworthy progeny. 
In a perfect world!!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

German Seiger, American Ch. Bodo v Lierberg SchH 3, ROM

Winners Dog at the 1967 GSDCA National Specialty.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Ch. Caralon's Hein vd Lockenheim CD ROM 
​


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Ch. Caralon's {hantom v Lebarland, a Hein son.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I find it sooo interesting what people precieve as "good old dogs" sooo subjective.

Interesting. Maybe it's that psychologist side of me.. lol.

Jane, I tend to agree with what your saying to some degree. BUT.. I also think that you can't breed to the standard without trying to improve what you have... make sense? 

I very much agree to sticking to the standard and REALLY agree that most do not. 

I guess this could tie into the other thread where we were speaking of "sport dogs" and "real dogs" - which one is the correct GSD? The "good old dogs"?

Playing on what Lin said, the world is ever evolving and isn't the GSD suppose to be the "do everything dog"? Shouldn't they evolve with us?

Not sure I know the answer to that one. 

What I precieve as the "true GSD" or as my TD put it, "the good old dogs" is very different than what my friend does (a Mal in a GSD suit) and maybe even what others do on this board. I know the qualities I like and want but not sure I can find it in one dog. I am so rambling, too many thoughts and not enough experience/knowledge to really convey what I mean properly.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Select Ch. Stuttgart's Sundance Kid ROM


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Elisabeth, you need to have long conversations with your old friend. I'm sure his insight would be so invaluable and treasured! I bet he has a photo album of his past dogs, too that he'd love to share with you. You should see if you can pay him a visit to talk more about the good old dogs of his past. Ask if you can make a documentary? I'd love to hear his stories!!!
Daphne, the pics you are posting are wonderfully historical as well, thank you for sharing these!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jane, he is such a hoot! 

You would love him. Sassy, doesn't take any crap from anyone, your gonna hear the truth even if it hurts type of guy. He's awesome. 

When I first went out and met with him he saw me with Stark and when Stark barked at another dog and I corrected him with a "HUSH!" and a collar pop he said, "nice to see a lady who doesn't take any lip" .. HAHAHA. He said I was one of the only young girls to come out to the training grounds with a big dog and who he wasn't afraid of hurting my feelings or worrying about me treating Stark like a poodle... lol. I *think* that was a compliment.. lol.

I will definitely see if I can get together with him again, he lives near TO but with summer coming I am sure we will see him. He wants to help us search for a new helper so I will be talking to him a lot hopfully. I think the "documentry" is a great idea.. maybe we can set it up on skype since we are a ways away from one another - who knows but GREAT idea!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

How can you compare the dogs of old and todays dogs without experience with both????? What is your point of reference????Talk about an uninformed opinion:shocked:.
Oh well, everyone is definitely entitled to an opinion, but the basis of the opinion, weighs heavily upon the accurracy, in my mind.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I guess I will throw this question out there as well:
> 
> *What characteristics would YOU consider to make up the 'old type dogs'?*


 my idea of the old style or type and I truly adore.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Cliff - not sure who your post was directed at but I will respond anyway. 

I guess my question is CAN you compare the dogs from then to the dogs now? If you can, which dogs/lines are representations of what use to be?

I don't really HAVE an opinion as I stated - not enough knowledge/information to make one yet - that will come with years of experience working, researching and living with the breed hopefully!

I would love to hear your opinion on this as I know you have a tone of experience. 

When I think of the "good old dogs" I tend to think Czech lines, not sure why and I also tend to think of dogs such as what Carmen produces to be honest or at least those "types".


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

First dog is CH Yola v. Vilsendorf. 
Yola was imported from Germany. Besides other titles she was the youth Siegerin in 1937.

Second dog is CH Hugo of Cosalta-1939 Grand Victor (by the way, his pups sold for 85.00 - 100.00 each)

Weird how even back in the 30's there were different body types. 

So Cliff, just based on looks, nothing else, (just this once) which body type do you think of when you think of a "good ole GSD"?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Whitesshepherd, I think of both....both were somewhat typical of dogs of the past. The cookie cutter type showdog that we see today is a creation of today. If you look at the basic structure of the dogs that have won the National conformation titles in Germany and the United States, other than a German Shepherd follower, the average person who be hard pressed to tell the difference from year to year. In Germany the difference would really be difficult as they are even all the same color. In America the color may be different but the stucture of the body style (shoulder,angulation,extreme gait) would be pretty much the same. 
This is the creation of genetic bottleneck in both countries on a few dogs, and Judges that cater to this "type". More important whole segments of GS are excluded from these show worlds both genetically and typewise. The dogs of the past didnot have this type of bottleneck genetically or phenotypically. Dogs of all colors and body types won the top conformation titles in those days. That's why the 1937 dog looks different than 1939 dog. Also, the prejudice was not as great...think about this, there is not a dog in all of Germany(the motherland), that the Americans would place in their top ten in a national conformation show....none!! Isn't that insane!! or their is not a sable or bi-color in the world that can place VA in the Seiger show....none!! Crazy....This kind of thinking and this kind of breeding has great decreased the genepool in those areas, thus causing the effects that come with a narrowing of the genpool. That doesn't even take into account that now the people who breed functional working GS still, won't touch these dogs in their breeding programs with a ten foot pole. The breeding principles are different, the outcomes are different. THAT's why the breed was better then...this is a breed that is utility in nature, made up of open genepools that constantly adjust breeding types to maintain high utility and good structure TO SUPPORT THE UTILITY.
That isn't the case with many breeders today as the specialists have done the exact opposite of this.
Elizabeth, The Czech dogs of the 90's were probably the closest I saw consistently to the older type...alas but they are being specialized these day to answer the sport and cosmetic demand for black sable. JMO


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Furthermore, this mentality exists on both spectrums(specialization), and it clearly differentiates the dogs of today from yesteryear. 
Example: One of my first litters in 1977 was out of a Arko vom Rossbach,(an Enno son from Germany) and a Beejay's Gentle Ben daughter. (Ben was a Lance daughter). Out of this litter I kept a male that went to the Del State Police at 18 month. The dog became legendary within the state for his accomplishments. The point; here is a grandson of Lance of Franjo. His mother was a good solid dog in nerve and structure, I felt I needed more hardness, that I knew Enno was producing, so I did the breeding and got some very nice dogs. You can't do that today because the show and work lines are so saturated on so few dogs, the negative recessives have become dominant. As one poster said, shyness and hyperactivity, as examples were always a part of the breed...but you always bred away from things like that and weak ears, missing testicles, etc. But if you take a dog who either has weak nerves OR is from parents or grandparents in which this was evident, and continue to breed on this dog, though you may strengthen the angulation the dog is giving, you will also entrench the weak nerves the dog possesses or the parents possess. THAT's why you must keep genepool open; though you can linebreed to set type(always on strong nerved dogs), you CANNOT linebreed generation after generation with dogs that go back to this same dog for 5 to 10 generations.(Lance,Canto,Quanto, Fero, ). This is the difference in old dogs and today's dogs and why they performed the feats they did in the past commonly as opposed to today when it is becoming an exception for the true utility dog. This is just one person's opinion, no more no less, but it is based on having seen and bred litters in old times and new times.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Check this out. The black&tan one is Gildo. Now look at Yukon and Gildo. 

One is from the good ol'days and the other from the present. I don't see much change in the resemblance and that is the type of dog I like the most. I wouldn't want them any other way.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

As usual Cliff - great informational post.

I have noticed exactly what you are saying in my search for my next pup.

It may not matter because I have no intentions of breeding, but there are certain things I would like ALL IN ONE DOG that I am finding hardpressed to find. Yes, I want to do sport with my dog, but that's not all so I want to keep those other options open so that if I choose to go another way I have a dog that is able too. When I speak with breeders or those who participate in sport (mainly schH) they keep telling me that the dog I am looking for doesn't exsist anymore, that I need a time machine to go back 50-60 years to find what I am looking for. I hope they are wrong.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Check this out. The black&tan one is Gildo. Now look at Yukon and Gildo.
> 
> One is from the good ol'days and the other from the present. I don't see much change in the resemblance and that is the type of dog I like the most. I wouldn't want them any other way.


As much as structure and apperance play their role - there is more to it than that - what specific qualities (temperament, nerve, threshold, ability, etc.) does the dog of today posess to resemble the dog of past?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Furthermore, this mentality exists on both spectrums(specialization), and it clearly differentiates the dogs of today from yesteryear.
> Example: One of my first litters in 1977 was out of a Arko vom Rossbach,(an Enno son from Germany) and a Beejay's Gentle Ben daughter. (Ben was a Lance daughter). Out of this litter I kept a male that went to the Del State Police at 18 month. The dog became legendary within the state for his accomplishments. The point; here is a grandson of Lance of Franjo. His mother was a good solid dog in nerve and structure, I felt I needed more hardness, that I knew Enno was producing, so I did the breeding and got some very nice dogs. You can't do that today because the show and work lines are so saturated on so few dogs, the negative recessives have become dominant. As one poster said, shyness and hyperactivity, as examples were always a part of the breed...but you always bred away from things like that and weak ears, missing testicles, etc. But if you take a dog who either has weak nerves OR is from parents or grandparents in which this was evident, and continue to breed on this dog, though you may strengthen the angulation the dog is giving, you will also entrench the weak nerves the dog possesses or the parents possess. THAT's why you must keep genepool open; though you can linebreed to set type(always on strong nerved dogs), you CANNOT linebreed generation after generation with dogs that go back to this same dog for 5 to 10 generations.(Lance,Canto,Quanto, Fero, ). This is the difference in old dogs and today's dogs and why they performed the feats they did in the past commonly as opposed to today when it is becoming an exception for the true utility dog. This is just one person's opinion, no more no less, but it is based on having seen and bred litters in old times and new times.


That is very true and I can see that perfectly in my girl. I have the temperament, strong nerve, the drive, the whole package but I also have super-big ears and a long back (both of which I actually never wanted) which is said to come from the Fero lines. 

You can't get one without the other. There is always a down-side to it.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> His structure was moderate, not your typical working line or showline but a nice balance of the two. Drives were not over the top and he could work from both sides (I am asumming he meant defense and prey?), great nerve and just reminded him of the 'good old dogs'.


Since I was not part of the conversation, let me ask you this ... was he referring to the "good old dogs" in terms of appearance, temperament and drives, or a combination of both?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I have no input, really, but I do know that at the dog show I went to, there was an American/WGWL cross (I'm not sure how much of each), but MAN was he gorgeous.


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

THIS THIS THIS! I want a gsd that looks like this!
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ww5g8glfjnte0aeyimjf6syrquqqmlc-6svi-aeq-.jpg


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