# Degenerative Spinal Disease?



## Mia's Mom

I rescued my GSD in 1999. She was probably around 1.5 years old, and had already been spayed. Her previous history is unknown, but I had her hips checked and they were/are good. 

In 2006 a vet mentioned that she might be the early stages of a neurological disease for which there is no treatment. She said the disease can progress very fast or very slow. I am almost certain that she said the condition was painless; common in GSDs, and would eventually cause her to lose the use of her back legs, if she did indeed have it. At the time her biggest problem was what appeared to be arthritis, so she went on pain meds. Please note that she was NOT diagnosed with this neurological disease. Basically, since there was no treatment, all we could do was wait.

Recently she's been deteriorating at a much faster rate. I had to her a different vet (we moved) who said she thought that the previous vet probably meant cauda equina syndrome. I looked this up, and although some of the symptoms are pretty convincing (losing muscle mass from back legs, walks with a weird gate, has trouble getting up and some trouble defecating, etc.), Mia does not appear to have sharp pain in her back, legs or tail. She never cries out. AND CAUDA EQUINA IS TREATABLE with surgery and/or prednisolone.

I almost can't believe her previous vet wouldn't have mentioned the prednisolone or surgical treatment option, so I'm wondering if these two vets aren't' talking about two different diseases. The first vet is gone and didn't mention it in her file, so I can't ask her.

Does anyone know any other diseases that might fit the description? What other disease might she have been talking about?


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## angelaw

dm doesn't have pain. spondylosis can. have you done xrays?


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## socalgsd

The first vet was talking about degenerative myelopathy (DM). 

Molly


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## sgtmom52

> Originally Posted By: socalgsdThe first vet was talking about degenerative myelopathy (DM).


Sounds like DM to me too. My Kodi had DM. The first symptom is usually "knuckling over" (dragging the top of a hind foot) on the ground. DM does appear to be painless and can suddenly progress rapidly. I hope that your dog's illness is something that can be successfully treated.

Kodi was diagnosed at 9 and lived to be 12. She was in a wheeled cart for a while.


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## arycrest

There are several problems GSDs can have with similar symptoms - all resulting in weak rears/knuckling under/etc. Some dogs are more stoic than others when it comes to pain. Tasha had DM (no apparent pain). Yukon had polymyositis (no apparent pain). JR & his daughter, Honey, had CES (one symptom with both dogs was apparent pain - JR more so than Honey). Ringer had degenerative disc disease in his neck and back (one of the symptoms was pain). When he was 3, Ringer also had lupus mediated polyarthritis which was treated successfully and he remained in remission for the rest of his life (I can't recall any apparent signs of pain).


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## Mia's Mom

You are right. I just read up on it to make sure, and I'm certain that's what that first vet had told me. 

I am so relieved! Thank you all so much. I was hysterical this morning when I thought I'd been denying my girl treatment all this time. I am soooo relieved! I wish she didn't have it, but at least I haven't been a negligent dog mom.

Thank you all for sharing you knowledge.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: socalgsdThe first vet was talking about degenerative myelopathy (DM).
> 
> Molly


Even progression of DM can sometimes be slowed with Clemmons' protocol.


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## socalgsd

I lost two dogs in a row to DM, and followed Dr C's regimen faithfully. It didn't appear to help, but I'm glad that others have seen some positive effects. The most beneficial thing that I did for my own dogs was exercise uphill for strength, and laterally across hills for balance.

DM has recently been shown to be genetically almost identical to ALS in humans. 

Molly


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## debbiebrown

i have a 13 year old with Spondylosis, and the symptoms you describe are exactly like my guys. there usually isn't any pain when things start fusing together, and the nerves get compressed.

debbie


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## socalgsd

The original poster doesn't mention whether the dog's spine was x-rayed. As you know, spondylosis would be easy to diagnose with x-rays. Nothing would show up for DM though.

Molly


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## Katerlena

Sorry to hear your girl has DM. As your vet probably told you DM is usually a rule out disease. If you have done all the diagnostics tests and there is no other diagnosis and the classic DM symptoms are prevalent then its generally identified as DM. There was a genetic DM Flash test but its no longer being offered by Univ of Florida. The OFA offers another test don't know how comparable it is to that test and my vet said its not a 100% indicator but a negative result may help in the "ruling out" process. If you google Degenerative Myleopathy you can find a lot of good insight including Dr Clemmons protocol, Jack Flash's website and some support groups (there is a Yahoo one exclusively just for DM). Its a horrid disease and it seems German Shepherds unfortunately are often prone to it. (although apparently other breeds like Corgis and Boxers can get it too). While some people haven't had luck with Dr Clemmons protocol such as the diet and supplements and exercise once you have ruled out there is no other spinal issues it might help your girl--maybe you can get your new vets opinion. Best of luck to you and the best advise having been a DM Mom I can give is to remember to take one day at a time and enjoy each day you have together.


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## Mia's Mom

I've been reading up on DM, and I'm learning that I need to double check and research everything any vet ever says to me. Not one of Mia's vets ever told me of any type of treatment, or that exercise was a good idea. In fact, I was told that it didn't matter one way or the other. 

I don't suppose anyone knows where I can find referral sites for vets in my area who might know more about GSDs than the average vet. I'm not happy enough with this first vet I took her to to take her back there, and I don't want to pick another one out of the phone book.

I'm near Boise, ID, if it's any help.


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## LisaT

Mia's Mom,

I can't help with the vet, but I have been in a similar position as you. One of the biggest things that we learn from these dogs is to step up and take charge of their care, in more aspects than we thought would be necessary. In some sense, I. consider it a betrayal of public trust. 

I have a dog that was deeply damaged (physically) by inaction on my part because I believed a vet, and later several vets. I understand that feeling of shock and dismay and heartbreak that are feeling now. 

I've found that it's not necessarily a vet about a breed that has been useful (although that's a huge plus if you can find one), but one that is open to questions and suggestions that you bring in, and is not "offended" by your efforts to make your dog healthier, regardless of the choices that you make. 

Best of luck finding the right vet, or at least a better vet. I am so sorry about your girl.


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## natalie559

> Originally Posted By: Mia's MomI'm learning that I need to double check and research everything any vet ever says to me


Yes, we all really have to learn to be our dogs advocate. A great book on the subject is Speaking for Spot, http://www.speakingforspot.com/



> Originally Posted By: Mia's MomI don't suppose anyone knows where I can find referral sites for vets in my area


You can search the Idaho Veterinary Medical Association or the American Holistic Veterinary Association, 

http://www.ivma.org/vetframe.htm

http://www.holisticvetlist.com

Make a short list of questions about issues that are important to you to see if you and the vet have similar views. A lot of times you can email them at first then go to meet next if you have a good feeling. Ask about prices and get a look at the staff and clinic.


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## Mia's Mom

I took her to a new vet today. I was delighted not to see a Hills or Science Diet display in the lobby; they didn't freak when I told them I feed BARF, and instead of asking whether her vaccinations were up to date, they asked if I'd stopped vaccinating her at her age, so my first impression was good.

Mia is quite aggressive (PC for blood-thirsty potential killer), but she seemed relatively calm with both the tech and the vet. She only did her police-dog thing a couple of times, and she actually allowed the vet to face her almost head-on while we talked, and then she laid down. It's a good sign.


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## Mia's Mom

Natalie, than you for the links and the book. I will look for it. I tend to be too polite with vets to question them even when I disagree, and I really need to learn to get over that. My dogs count on me to speak for them.


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## Koicare

I have had 2 dogs both which got this - here in South Africa it is called "Lumbar Sacral Stenosis". Yes you can operate to try and free the nerves....which is risky and painful and does not guarantee success... but the general treatment here is low dosage Pred. I did try many natural remedies I had readabout, including feeding Aloe - and the only thing that worked was the pred. Yayla is nearing the end now.... she is on 5mg twice a day..... having done this twice I would like to give you more on what happens...

Firstly the Pred causes extreme hunger - and anyting the dog eats seems to go straight to the belly region - so that get very flabby hangy bellies......

All the vets say that it is not painful..... I have seen that what happens is the dog gets pins and needles in the hind legs, and because the hind legs have this pins and needles feeling the whole time they start to chew away at their legs...... eventually the back legs have no hair and then they start to get through the skin and youhave lesions and bleedy sores..... because they choose not to move about as much, their elbows start to bleed from spenind more time laying than moving about!

Because the dog is eating - as the pred makes the dog hungry all the time - you can never see how much the dog is deteriorating - until you start to see the hair being bitten off the legs and the eblows crusting over and bleeding - so it is important that you do not use food and appetite as your guide.....

At the moment I use "Corn Plasters" on Yayla's elbows -so thatshe does not rub them continuosly....

The only thing I have seen that seems to delay the progress is if you swim your dog....... if you have a rehab centre that has a heated pool and every 2 or 3 days take your dog for swimming therapy.... this is the only thing that I have seen slow down the progress..... it is easy on all the joints and it helps to put (or should I say keep) muscle on the hind legs.....

One owner I know who also had this condition with his dog, took his dog for Acupuncture - which he swears blind by - maybe you could try and see if your dog can tolerate it.

The other thing you might see is the area just before the begining of the tail can sometimes become indented...and it looks or feels indented as the muscles start to waste away. 

So if you can start to swim your dog - I would definately recommend it! it will not cure the situation - but it will slow it down!

I am very sorry!


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## angelaw

Again, without xrays and further testing, it's anybody's guess including the vets.


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## Koicare

here is some links for you to read up on:
(sorry please excuse all my previous spelling errors - I am tired....)

one thing you can look for as an early warning sign..... if the tail is flacid - ie: it hangs straight down, instead of curling a bit...99% of the time if you do an xray - youwill see that the disease has started.....

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/lumbo-sacral-disease/page1.aspx
http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vet...ategoryId=45699
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/academics/Current_student/Notes/Lumbosacral%20stenosis.pdf


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## Mia's Mom

I talked to one of her previous vets who says the x-rays from her gastric torsion surgery show that she does have spondylosis. She doesn't correct her back toes quickly if they're curled under, indicating she might also have DM. The awful spinal disease you're dealing with, Koicare, is often called cauda equina here, and I'm glad to say it looks like that's not Mia's problem. I am so sorry to know that Yayla has it though. I have read about it other places too, and it must be just awful for both you and her. It sounds like you are taking very good care of her. I wish you both courage and as much quality time together as possible.

I have tried acupuncture with Mia with no visible results. We also tried lots of supplements and holistic remedies and some pain medication called "Fidowobenzyme." None of it had any effect. Today she was chasing an Irish terrier. He runs a lot faster than her, but if not for the muzzle, she'd have gotten the little bugger, so at least her spirit is good.









Thanks for your help everyone.


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## natalie559

> Originally Posted By: Mia's MomI talked to one of her previous vets who says the x-rays from her gastric torsion surgery show that she does have spondylosis. She doesn't correct her back toes quickly if they're curled under, indicating she might also have DM. The awful spinal disease you're dealing with, Koicare, is often called cauda equina here, and I'm glad to say it looks like that's not Mia's problem.


Well the spondylosis in the Lumbo-sacral area is what leads to the cauda equina syndrome. Its all related and there are several terms you can use.

Basically what happens is with the spondylosis the bone of the spine overgrows and narrows the spinal canal which often results in pressure on the spinal cord or spinal nerve roots and with it being in this critical lumbar area can lead to entrapment of the cauda equina nerve roots which control bladder and fecal function among other things.

So as the spondylosis progresses so do the symptoms and although your dog may not have cauda equina now they can in the future. 

Our vet believes that the spondylosis grows in part due to the spine being misaligned and that the bones are over correcting for the deficits. She hopes that through chiro and accupuncture she can slow to stop the progression of the spondylosis. 

If there is marked spondylosis the not correcting of the toes could be due to the sciatic nerve being compressed as that is one of the symptoms as well as motor weakness and atrophy.

Speaking of the muscle atrophy, you mentioned it earlier and I was wondering what it looks like on your dog? My dog Penny is in the same situation as yours and I was wondering if her hind leg muscles were looking a bit thin. She chews there a lot and that reminded me of the other post about the pins and needles feeling.


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