# I just fired my trainer and am in need of some advice...



## brandonb (Nov 9, 2010)

Am the proud owner of a 5 month old GSD. While being around GSD's all my life. This is the first one of my own. She is great, I have been taking her to a rather expensive training class, once a week since she was 9 weeks old. She knows her sit, down, off, no bite ( kisses ) an come ( sorta ) she is crate trained , overall just fantastic. It has been a lot of enjoyable work, certainly worth it. 

On to my trainer. The reason I dumped my trainer was a few reasons. One being the lack of discipline. Now am not saying grabbing a broom and smacking her but if she does something she knows she not supposed to do or just looking at me and deciding not to do what I said. Is not giving her a treat a appropriate way of discipline. It's my belief she needs to work for me and not food.

Another issue is we are around 12-15 pups all about the same age. She walks well on leash and will check in with me. She will sit, and down in front of the other dogs. Let me walk over her and around her without breaking...70% of the time. When I release her outside in the trainers field and am expected to call her or yell sit she is supposed to do it. At 5 months I do not expect her to do this and if I had a dog that was so joined to my hip and not running and playing I would be far more concerned. I really feel this is setting her up to fail and is not fair. I will train this first with a 20" horse lead before expecting this. For the last 3 weeks the only reason I was going was for socialization but i think this can cause more harm than good. 

Lastly there has been a huge inconstancy's, use a "good dog collar" ( plastic prong ), use a e-collar or use a choke. My dog responds very well to a HS Fur Saver choke, I think it is mainly do to the audible pop when she is corrected. How ever these recommendations change every week. I do not want her to work because she is on a prong or e-collar but I need her to work for me.

Am at the point where am looking for a new class / trainer or handler. In my area it seems all the trainers are "treat trainers" which am not saying is wrong but it seems over used to me.

Am joining the local GSD dog club and am doing some research in Colorado as well as continuing my training.

I may be completely wrong on this one and the reasons i left my trainer and that is fine and would love some advice whether good or bad. Any good traditional training books that you would recommended ? Anyone in Colorado, preferably Boulder County that would recommend a trainer you may have used? 

If you read this all thank you as I know this is a shotgun post


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We like to let our pups just enjoy the time training for a while and absolutely use treats at that age. There is plenty of time later for "because I said so".
You might get Ivan Balabanov's DVDs or maybe look into some of the books by Gary Patterson. I guess it kind of depends on what your ultimate goal for training would be, a well mannered pet or do you plan to compete in a sport? 
Oh, we do all our training off leash to begin with, so no opinion on the collar from me .
Welcome to Dogwise.com


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Well I'm far from an expert and I'm not very good with advice, but I do agree that treat-training, as well as e-collar/prong collar training are over-used. I took Dakoda to an obedience class at Petsmart for socialization. After, I have worked with her on my own. For her, the biggest reward is getting a nice belly rub or an excited hug (or playtime). So far I'v had no need for a personal trainer. I am hoping to get her into a sport, but right now she is fine. I believe that rewarding a dog only requires their owner's appreciation and a good show of it. As for discipline, Dakoda responds to a spray bottle, a tap on the nose or neck, and a sharp noise. I'm not sure if any of this helped, but I hope it did. Good luck! I'd help you with your trainer situation, but I'm in Ga so I don't know ANY trainers up there lol.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Well you can argue methods and theories all day long but the bottom line is if you're not comfortable or happy with the trainer than you shouldn't continue and look for one you are comfortable with. I haven't come across any trainer that doesn't use treats to reward and reinforce behavior though


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## brandonb (Nov 9, 2010)

Absolutely and thanks for the responses. Am not apposed to treat training but it seems to be used as a cure all and in excess, at least with this trainer. Misia responds more so to her tennis ball and playing fetch and sitting between my legs and letting me pet her. I will not show her as she is no longer intact but am going to go with either herding or agility as I think she would love both. However she needs to be a family dog first and foremost and protect my wife and daughter when am out of town for work, which am not training for nor concerned that she will not. I will check out those books / DVD's .


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

You know your dog better than anyone and can tell if she is food motivated or toy motivated. But she has to have a reason for doing what you are asking, or you will not get as good a response as you may desire. It may come down to treat training whether you like it or not. I'm not a huge fan of "Do this behavior to avoid punishment" as I prefer "Do this behavior because you will get a reward." But to each his own. I'm not into clicker training, but you can really get some amazing results with it.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> You know your dog better than anyone and can tell if she is food motivated or toy motivated. But she has to have a reason for doing what you are asking, or you will not get as good a response as you may desire. It may come down to treat training whether you like it or not. I'm not a huge fan of "Do this behavior to avoid punishment" as I prefer "Do this behavior because you will get a reward." But to each his own. I'm not into clicker training, but you can really get some amazing results with it.


 Well-put. And probably more helpful than what I said XD


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## brandonb (Nov 9, 2010)

I guess I sounded to harsh but I don't want to punish her but I also don't want to bribe her either. I guess its a fine line. Those Peterson books look great but since she still is a young pup are they any books you may have used along the lines of "tracking games" or hide and seek something she can totally enjoy and utilizing her natural talents but is being trained at the same time ?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with the others that you know your dog best, and your choice of trainer is just that, YOUR choice.

I don't think food training is "bribery". If something is not working, it's best to examine where the communication is failing than blame the method. I use food to train most puppy stuff. I have a 10 week old puppy who already does sit, down, and come without food present (I still reward intermittently, but I can use the commands and he will do as I say without me having to show him I have treats).

To me the most important thing about a dog this age is not just getting 100% compliance, but using training and play to build a bond and trust with the dog so that the dog is not only willing to work for you but WANTS to work for you (grabs the toy or leash or treat back and pesters you to take her out to train). I do a bit more training with puppies than some people do but it's not because I'm worried we will get behind, it's because I finding doing lots of positive, motivational training is an easy way to imprint communication with the dog and build a strong working relationship.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Good_Karma said:


> You know your dog better than anyone and can tell if she is food motivated or toy motivated. *But she has to have a reason for doing what you are asking, or you will not get as good a response as you may desire.* It may come down to treat training whether you like it or not. I'm not a huge fan of "Do this behavior to avoid punishment" as I prefer "Do this behavior because you will get a reward." But to each his own. I'm not into clicker training, but you can really get some amazing results with it.


This. 110%. You have to build in a reason. Otherwise why would she work for you?? Just because you're her owner? It's really not a good enough reason for a puppy. They're not people. Over time consistency of reward and then variable reward, and then adding in corrections and proofing create a reliably obedient dog that doesn't require constant treats. Do not underestimate the value of the Non-reward. It's a very powerful tool in helping a puppy to learn. I use non reward with dogs all the time when teaching a new behavior. I don't want to use corrections because it is not a KNOWN behavior yet (a known behavior has been performed in that circumstance /environment 30 times). Correcting for a behavior that is not known can create confusion and avoidance. 

I would not take away some kind of reward from a puppy for a behavior. I will continually reward my dogs into adulthood because it builds habit and reliable quick behaviors. And like others said it depends on what motivates your dog. Mine have all had great play and toy drive so I can reward them with a tug game with me. I don't give them the toy and just expect them to be happy...it's a game we play together. Some dogs don't care for toys and then you build the bond through food rewards. I train all my pups in flat collars or no collars and usually with no leashes. My goal is off lead obedience and I start that way from the very beginning. 

There are dogs that are naturally compliant. They're a pleasure. However, I personally never really found that personality to really appear until later on. Puppies are self serving. They do what works for them. You show them how what works for you also works for them and everything is a piece of cake.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

maybe you should find a better class or a private trainer.


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## brandonb (Nov 9, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> This. 110%. You have to build in a reason. Otherwise why would she work for you?? Just because you're her owner? It's really not a good enough reason for a puppy. They're not people. Over time consistency of reward and then variable reward, and then adding in corrections and proofing create a reliably obedient dog that doesn't require constant treats. Do not underestimate the value of the Non-reward. It's a very powerful tool in helping a puppy to learn. I use non reward with dogs all the time when teaching a new behavior. I don't want to use corrections because it is not a KNOWN behavior yet (a known behavior has been performed in that circumstance /environment 30 times). Correcting for a behavior that is not known can create confusion and avoidance.
> 
> I would not take away some kind of reward from a puppy for a behavior. I will continually reward my dogs into adulthood because it builds habit and reliable quick behaviors. And like others said it depends on what motivates your dog. Mine have all had great play and toy drive so I can reward them with a tug game with me. I don't give them the toy and just expect them to be happy...it's a game we play together. Some dogs don't care for toys and then you build the bond through food rewards. I train all my pups in flat collars or no collars and usually with no leashes. My goal is off lead obedience and I start that way from the very beginning.
> 
> There are dogs that are naturally compliant. They're a pleasure. However, I personally never really found that personality to really appear until later on. Puppies are self serving. They do what works for them. You show them how what works for you also works for them and everything is a piece of cake.



Thanks for this and all of the other comments, I think I was just working with her off leash and used treats and then played fetch. I truly believe this works for her. I think you guys nailed it on the head...i think am to concerned about getting "behind" that i forget she is 5 months old. My aunt who has worked with GSD's forever now ( she is 80 ) she is sending me some books as well as she found a rally class every tuesday nights in my town which is free. I am not sure if I will get another trainer or continue on my own. Maybe later when she is getting ready to do something a bit more formal might be a better idea.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Liesje said:


> To me the most important thing about a dog this age is not just getting 100% compliance, but using training and play to build a bond and trust with the dog so that the dog is not only willing to work for you but WANTS to work for you (grabs the toy or leash or treat back and pesters you to take her out to train). I do a bit more training with puppies than some people do but it's not because I'm worried we will get behind, it's because I finding doing lots of positive, motivational training is an easy way to imprint communication with the dog and build a strong working relationship.


 This is how I feel too. At 5 months, most of my training is still getting the pup to really want to work with me, drive building and doing foundation work. For me, using collar pops, ecollars and prong collars would be very counterproductive to what I'm trying to achieve. I do feel that there is a time and place for some correction but it comes much, much later and there shouldn't be a need to use lots of corrections for any one thing.


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## brandonb (Nov 9, 2010)

That's such a bummer she had her on a plastic prong as long as I can remember bringing her there. I wish I would have known better.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

AgileGSD said:


> This is how I feel too. At 5 months, most of my training is still getting the pup to really want to work with me, drive building and doing foundation work. For me, using collar pops, ecollars and prong collars would be very counterproductive to what I'm trying to achieve. I do feel that there is a time and place for some correction but it comes much, much later and there shouldn't be a need to use lots of corrections for any one thing.


Totally agree. It's WAY too soon to worry about "doing it for me", and using food or toy rewards - REWARDS, not bribes.  If she's not that into food and works better for toys, use those instead. If she will work for food but you don't like the idea, well....get over it! :rofl: If she'll work for both - lucky you!

It's really a myth that you and you alone will be enough to train a dog to obey. Eventually, yes, maybe. But only after you've established a relationship, by making training and working with you fun and rewarding. Teach her WHY she should "work for you" and then later, once you're 100% sure she fully understands the command and has generalized it to all situations regardless of the distractions, then you can correct her for non- compliance. I guarantee that at 5 months old you're nowhere near that point.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

brandonb said:


> That's such a bummer she had her on a plastic prong as long as I can remember bringing her there. I wish I would have known better.


I start training a brand new puppy from the time they come home to me, usually off leash, with lots of treats to reinforce any behavior I like and want to encourage. The more they're reinforced, the more they offer up those behaviors, and then I can put them on cue. Motivational training is great, especially if you use markers - either a clicker or your voice ("yes!") to let the puppy know exactly what it was she did that earned her the reward. It makes training crystal clear, so much more so than corrective training, which only tells the puppy when they did wrong. 

Remember that there is only one right response to any command but numerous wrong responses, so doesn't it make more sense to reward her for doing it right than correcting her for not doing it or for doing something else instead?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

brandonb said:


> I guess I sounded to harsh but I don't want to punish her but *I also don't want to bribe her either*. I guess its a fine line. Those Peterson books look great but since she still is a young pup are they any books you may have used along the lines of "tracking games" or hide and seek something she can totally enjoy and utilizing her natural talents but is being trained at the same time ?


You DEFINITELY need another trainer if they told you using treats are 'bribes'. That is NOT the way treats are used properly. 

What they are, when used properly, is the link between what you want and what puppy wants AND THE TREAT MAKES THE PUPPY STAY ENGAGED AND WANTING TO LEARN! It's so much more important to build a *RELATIONSHIP* with your puppy/dog that you build on using treats/play/toys in training. Because the owners/handlers with the best bonds and closest relationships with their dogs go WAY further than those who haven't taken the time to get that link. 

I do NOT just want a puppy that does what I say. I want a puppy who want to be with me. Wants to learn. Is completely engaged and desperately trying to figure out the session because of the treats AND praise and being with me.

Then, and this is what your trainer must have not explained..............once our pup DOES know and is engaged to do the behavior. You start up with the random reinforcement of the treat and start replacing it with praise or toys....using the treats mainly for new behaviors or to randomly reward for old behaviors. 

Using treats and toys to have our dogs WANT to listen, learn, and be with us for the teaching is always the way I am going to teach. Used properly it's the best way to get a dog that beats you to the command and is a willing PARTNER in the training. Not merely reluctantly a participant because it has to 'or else'. 

How to Mark Random Reinforcement in Basic Dog Training: How to Train Your Dog | eHow.com

http://www.wholisticdogtraining.com/files/positive-method.pdf

Common Dog Training Mistakes - Whole Dog Journal Article



> *Mistake #1: “Positive = permissive”*
> You may hear non-positive trainers insist that there has to be a negative consequence for a dog’s inappropriate behavior or he’ll never learn what’s not allowed. It might surprise you to hear that positive trainers _don’t disagree_. We just differ on the nature of the consequence. A well-implemented positive training program combines good management, to prevent the dog from having the opportunity to be reinforced for undesirable behavior, and negative punishment, in which the dog’s inappropriate behavior makes a good thing go away.


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## DanielleKeith (Dec 6, 2010)

I have to post here. At the age that your dog is, she is literally a teenager. Does any teenager "work" for anyone just because they should? No. There needs to be a lot of fun and a TON of reward and emphasis on the correct behavior. They want to please, so be pleasable. Give her some external motivation that will eventually manifest into intrinsic motivation as she matures.  Just a thought. I always would rather work for someone when I am stroked for the good job I do. boosts morale.


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## beowolf (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm not a professional dog trainer, but I've owned dogs for over 30 years. Before there was a multi million dollar dog treat industry, before there were clickers and pet stores, there was just a guy in the wilderness with a dog just as loyal then as they are today. I don't use a lot of treats with my GSD. I don't rule them out, but I do keep it to a minimum, I almost sense that he's bright enough to understand the treat game enough to use it against me, like I'm a chump with a bag of free treats to manipulate out of me. He'll smile, he'll dance, he'll do the trick for the treat. There is no guarantee that he'll listen and obey if I need him to listen in public but don't happen to have any treats with me, what then? He gives you the bird and does his own thing because he thinks it's about doing tricks for treats. I keep treats to a minimum and just rely on what a dog really loves - attention. He gets a pet and verbal praise. So far so good with my first GSD, a male aged 7 months...


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't understand why people feel the need to get in a pissing match with a 5 month old puppy about treats ... so what if the pup is manipulating you to get treats off you? That's good! That means you have a wicked smart puppy that is food driven and knows how to think for himself. 

When Ike was that age, every time we trained, I was stuffing food in his mouth. Before he was done eating the first bit, here comes the second bit. When training puppy, you want the puppy to have lots and lots of success. The puppy should feel that he can do no wrong. That means you rigged the game so that the pup can win and you click, click, click, treat, treat, treat, praise, praise, praise. That's how you get a puppy to enjoy obedience, to love learning and working with you.


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## ZebsMommy (Dec 4, 2010)

I would look into several of Patricia McConnell books. She is an amazing author, trainer, and behaviorist and I strongly reccomend reading her work. She also has DVD's available. Check out www.patriciamcconnell.com and I'm sure you'll find some useful stuff. And I agree, if you are unhappy with the trainer just find one that feels "right" to you. I find that a mix of reward-based training and stricter "traditional" methods works best for us. Read as much as you can and mix and match what works for you!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

beowolf said:


> There is no guarantee that he'll listen and obey if I need him to listen in public but don't happen to have any treats with me, what then?


That question shows a fundamental lack of understanding about motivational training. It's a fallacy that behaviors trained using food or toy rewards will always require the presence of the reward in order to elicit compliance. And if that's the case, then you're doing it wrong. 

I'm with Jason and MRL - I LOVE it when my dog is thinking for him/herself and trying to figure out what behavior will "make" me throw the ball, let them the food that's in their bowls on the floor, put the leash on, open the door, give them the bully stick I'm holding......


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

I just want my GSD to be a solid family pet that is loving and does what she is told . I had never used treat or clicker training with previous non GSD pets but I am so glad I did with Karma . She is 7 months old and sits down ,sits up, lies down, stays like she is glued,waits till she is told ok,leaves it,fetches and most importantly comes on command or even quicker....on a finger whistle( or if she is closer a simple click click with the tongue) which she learnt at about 3 months . I only treat trained her for a couple of months and then stopped but occasionally I feel like teaching her something new and will grab the clicker and the hot dog bits .I dunno ...I think I got lucky but treats and a clicker is hard to beat IMHO .


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## plusdoegsd (Nov 15, 2010)

i agree the treats are to reward the desired behavior rienforce the behavior with treats until its solid then phase them out. why would the puppy work so hard if there was no reward thats cruel.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

brandonb said:


> I guess I sounded to harsh but I don't want to punish her but I also don't want to bribe her either. I guess its a fine line. Those Peterson books look great but since she still is a young pup are they any books you may have used along the lines of "tracking games" or hide and seek something she can totally enjoy and utilizing her natural talents but is being trained at the same time ?


Clearly there are different trainers and methods and I have also shopped around to find ones I prefer but....

If you think of food as a bribe, frankly that's YOUR problem and I could understand that's why you don't want to use treats. And I would agree with you if it was a bribe. 

But it's not.

It's the 'pay' for the behavior. The way I want a paycheck when I go to work and sometimes a bonus it great too! But it's not my bi-weekly *bribe* I put into my bank account! 

That said, the reward (bribe?) doesn't have to be food all the time. It's what has value TO THE DOG. What do they WANT to work for.

And I think that's the issue I have with people who don't want to use a reward system with their pup to get them to WANT to listen and learn and instead expect their pups to HAVE to listen/learn (or else....). 

It's about my puppies attitude OFF LEASH and their willingness to be engaged and want to listen/learn/be with me. So looking at is as what can I use to ENGAGE (not bribe) my dog to train, there are some great videos to watch. And it's not about what the pups are doing right or wrong.

What you need to watch is the pups ATTITUDE, cause if you have that, you can teach your dog anything!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

There's also a right and a WRONG way to use treats... (course we can all mess this up too! :wild: )

Dog Owner's Guide: Treat Training

Why do Trainers Use Food When Training?

Bribery or a Paycheck: Why Do We Resist Training Our Dogs with Food?

Training with Treats | Thriving Canine


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