# West German show lines or German working lines?



## reinorshine (Oct 2, 2013)

Can you tell if a dog has West German show rather than working lines from looking at their pedigree?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

yes - easily when you are familiar with kennel names....and if all the dogs in the pedigree are black and red saddle patterns when you look at the pedigree - then it also says it is showlines

Lee


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Usually if the pedigree is filled with VAs its a showline. Working line pedigrees will usually have a mixture of V, SG and G ratings.


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## reinorshine (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks. I was told the show lines are preferable to the working lines. What do you think?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That depends on what you want from your dog. Show lines are much better for show, working for work.  You can find great family companions and wonderful pets in both lines, and you can find dogs that are a mental mess riddled with health problems in both lines. 

Key is knowing what YOU prefer and what your expectations are, and finding a good, knowledgeable breeder that REALLY knows their dogs.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if you have the pedigree research it. that should tell you what line
the dogs are from. ask the breeder about their lines.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

reinorshine said:


> Thanks. I was told the show lines are preferable to the working lines. What do you think?


It depends on your lifestyle, your goals, your budget and your aesthetic expectations.

You can get a good companion from either type....finding a well balanced, stable dog from a breeder who UNDERSTANDS what they are breeding is paramount to getting that dog....BYB are a crapshoot...there are many nice companion dogs who come from there...it is more of a lottery ticket as to getting decent temperament and health though- you are as likely to end up with major health issues and/or temperament issues....

The deck is stacked more heavily in your favor with a reputable breeder of either European type of GSD


Lee


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## reinorshine (Oct 2, 2013)

What I want is a sound, healthy, trainable dog. Safe around my horses with a calm temperament but protective. One that does not show fear or aggression.
I want to show in obedience, rally, agility, herding, conformation, possibly some SchH. She needs to be an athletic, trainable dog with a bit more drive than a couch potato. I owned GSDs 30 years ago. Now that my kids are grown and gone and the family Rat Terrier has passed away, I want to get my favorite dog again. I had no idea it was going to be so hard to find a good dog . . .


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## Markobytes (Sep 11, 2012)

Be careful there are breeders who describe/dismiss/excuse fear as being protective often they do not know the difference themselves. I agree with Wolfstraum's post, if you are not getting a pup from a knowledgeable, reputable breeder it is a crapshoot. I often cringe when viewing websites and wonder what kinds of problems these breeders are creating that they are unable to deal with.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

If you are interested in agility and schutzhund, and have horses, you will probably do well with a good working line puppy.

Lee


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## reinorshine (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks, just when I think I found a good reputable breeder, I find a bad review or some issue regarding the parent's health or lack of showing . . . finding a good breeder is much more difficult than I ever imagined.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

It doesn't matter. In Germany, your dog must be checked for intelligence, all breeding dogs in Gemany must have Schutzhund pass. Not necessarily all tree, but must be Schtzhund certified. Working line has stronger drives, more energetic, and, probably, would suffer a lot, if their owner doesn't provide them sufficient exercise. They were bred for sports. Show line doesn't show that level of intelligence as the working line, but they are less agressive. Actually, here we can say, that all non-agressive breeds as well show much lower level of intelligence in general than originally bred and preserved.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And here the experts say poodles, and then border collies are the smartest. I didn't realize either was particularly known for their superior aggressive qualities. 

David Taggert, there are a lot of GSD owners here on the site. If you want to make statements that one line is smarter than another, then it would be best to be able to qualify that statement with some type for research. 

Dogs are selected for intelligence, some are selected for their aggression, some are selected for their trainablity/biddability. And other stuff. I don't think that you can say that a more aggressive dog is more intelligent. I would have to see a decent test with a good sized population to accept that.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

David Taggart said:


> It doesn't matter. In Germany, your dog must be checked for intelligence, all breeding dogs in Gemany must have Schutzhund pass. Not necessarily all tree, but must be Schtzhund certified. Working line has stronger drives, more energetic, and, probably, would suffer a lot, if their owner doesn't provide them sufficient exercise. They were bred for sports. Show line doesn't show that level of intelligence as the working line, but they are less agressive. Actually, here we can say, that all non-agressive breeds as well show much lower level of intelligence in general than originally bred and preserved.


Where do you come up with this stuff? You speak like a behaviorist in all of your posts, but half of what you say doesn't make sense or is just straight out of left field.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

reinorshine said:


> Thanks, just when I think I found a good reputable breeder, I find a bad review or some issue regarding the parent's health or lack of showing . . . finding a good breeder is much more difficult than I ever imagined.


I wouldn't be put off by ONE bad review on a breeder - no one can please everyone every time. If, however, you see a _repeated pattern_ of complaints and bad reviews, then I would consider the information worthwhile to follow up on. 

You can go to the finding a breeder section, explain what you are looking for and ask for recommendations. Be aware that we have a no-breeder bashing rule on the forum, so negative comments need to be sent to you in PM, but positives can be posted on the open forum.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

David Taggart said:


> It doesn't matter. In Germany, your dog must be checked for intelligence, all breeding dogs in Gemany must have Schutzhund pass. Not necessarily all tree, but must be Schtzhund certified. Working line has stronger drives, more energetic, and, probably, would suffer a lot, if their owner doesn't provide them sufficient exercise. They were bred for sports. Show line doesn't show that level of intelligence as the working line, but they are less agressive. Actually, here we can say, that all non-agressive breeds as well show much lower level of intelligence in general than originally bred and preserved.


LOL!!!!!! Where do you get this stuff? It's hilarious !!!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> It doesn't matter. In Germany, your dog must be checked for intelligence, all breeding dogs in Gemany must have Schutzhund pass. Not necessarily all tree, but must be Schtzhund certified. Working line has stronger drives, more energetic, and, probably, would suffer a lot, if their owner doesn't provide them sufficient exercise. They were bred for sports. Show line doesn't show that level of intelligence as the working line, but they are less agressive. Actually, here we can say, that all non-agressive breeds as well show much lower level of intelligence in general than originally bred and preserved.


Ok David, please answer the following questions. 

What does this mandatory intelligence test consist of?

How is it show line are not bred for sports when they must be Schutzhund certified? Many SL owners enjoy Schutzhund with their dogs. They may not be competitive in high level events, but most people do not wish to spend that kind of time and money on the sport.

How is it that only 3 of the top 10 breeds, when categorized by intelligence, are commonly used in protection, if aggression and intelligence are linked as you suggest?

What is your experience with the breed that would qualify you to make such broad statements? How many dogs have you handled, trained, worked? What venues do you work or compete in?

I only ask because your options vary so greatly from most other experienced posters on the board, and if you in fact have some knowledge base that others lack, I would be interested to know what that source of knowledge is?

David Winners


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

a lot of these sch dogs are just pure prey monsters with no real aggression, I have seen some very nice czech show line dogs (german show line bred in czech) that I would prefer over a lot of the pure west german lines doing sch today for family protection.


When david says show lines are bad for sports I think he is just referring to people accusing others of midnight trails and then on top of that a lot of show people are said to work the dog with the same decoy and same field they will do the trails on? just silly things like that. Not sure if there is truth to it.


I would love to be in the OP position she just needs a dog that is non aggressive to horses? A balanced dog with common sense will learn just dont let the dog free with them because if they think hes a threat they can smash his face (some horses will) She has the choice to have any gsd she wants. No kids, Huge area farm, Lots of extra time to spend with the dog with previous dog experience.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good post David and in blue (speaking to the question posed at the top of this thread) that has been my observations over the last few years as well. I don't have the time, money or energy to compete at high levels so for people like me showlines are in the range of possibility for novice level participation in SchH. 

Also...This is just my personal experience so I am *not* putting this forth as an absolute but having now spent more time around working lines and having kept a couple for my trainer I've learned *I *tend to be too slow for a lot of them. My reflexes just aren't fast enough. The WGSLs (generally) are more forgiving of slow pokes like me. Again, JMHO.




David Winners said:


> <snipped>
> 
> 
> How is it show line are not bred for sports when they must be Schutzhund certified? Many SL owners enjoy Schutzhund with their dogs. They may not be competitive in high level events, but most people do not wish to spend that kind of time and money on the sport.
> ...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Good post David and in blue (speaking to the question posed at the top of this thread) that has been my observations over the last few years as well. I don't have the time, money or energy to compete at high levels so for people like me showlines are in the range of possibility for novice level participation in SchH.
> 
> Also...This is just my personal experience so I am *not* putting this forth as an absolute but having now spent more time around working lines and having kept a couple for my trainer I've learned *I *tend to be too slow for a lot of them. My reflexes just aren't fast enough. The WGSLs (generally) are more forgiving of slow pokes like me. Again, JMHO.


A good point, as timing is everything in communication. Higher drive dogs check out a lot sooner, so you have to be practiced and fluid in your movements.

It's especially true with younger dogs, when their attention span is that of a gnat 

David Winners


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Good post David and in blue (speaking to the question posed at the top of this thread) that has been my observations over the last few years as well. I don't have the time, money or energy to compete at high levels so for people like me showlines are in the range of possibility for novice level participation in SchH.
> 
> Also...This is just my personal experience so I am *not* putting this forth as an absolute but having now spent more time around working lines and having kept a couple for my trainer I've learned *I *tend to be too slow for a lot of them. My reflexes just aren't fast enough. The WGSLs (generally) are more forgiving of slow pokes like me. Again, JMHO.





David Winners said:


> A good point, as timing is everything in communication. Higher drive dogs check out a lot sooner, so you have to be practiced and fluid in your movements.
> 
> It's especially true with younger dogs, when their attention span is that of a gnat
> 
> David Winners


I apologise for the derailment OP, but I'm not sure I'm understanding being "too slow", in regards to training/marking/rewarding?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Nigel said:


> I apologise for the derailment OP, but I'm not sure I'm understanding being "too slow", in regards to training/marking/rewarding?


 
Your dog gives you cues. You have to mark those as soon as they happen. If you're late then you're not marking the behavior you wanted to mark. This is also the case for corrections. I'm working a new dog right now. I have only had her two days so I'm still getting to know her and I have noticed I'm not marking her first cue. It takes me to the second when I'm ready for it. This will get better as I learn her a bit more but it is getting frustrating because she is trying to communicate with me and it's me who is slow to process.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Part of the philosophy of training I follow is continuous focus and engagement from the dog. The higher drive dogs are much faster to check out or lose interest in the handler after a reward. So your handling of treats and training equipment has to be more proficient.

When a dog is quickly moving from behavior to behavior, it's harder to mark the correct behavior, mycobraracr stated. Their mind is moving faster, so your mark and reward window in time is smaller. It's also harder to make the dog miss when playing tug. Everything just happens faster, so your reactions and movements have to match the dog. 

Once the dog gets it, the fast dogs are really fun though 

David Winners


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> Your dog gives you cues. You have to mark those as soon as they happen. If you're late then you're not marking the behavior you wanted to mark. This is also the case for corrections. I'm working a new dog right now. I have only had her two days so I'm still getting to know her and I have noticed I'm not marking her first cue. It takes me to the second when I'm ready for it. This will get better as I learn her a bit more but it is getting frustrating because she is trying to communicate with me and it's me who is slow to process.


Ok thanks, I was guessing it was about marking behaviors, it's just that I don't see this with my own WL vs my SL's. Our WL is a pretty mellow guy, medium drives, could be why?


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Looks like I have to add yet another 'expert' to my ignore list ...


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## reinorshine (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks, I will try and narrow down my list and ask if anyone knows more on the breeder section. I am very thankful for this site!


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

David Taggart said:


> It doesn't matter. In Germany, your dog must be checked for intelligence, all breeding dogs in Gemany must have Schutzhund pass. Not necessarily all tree, but must be Schtzhund certified. Working line has stronger drives, more energetic, and, probably, would suffer a lot, if their owner doesn't provide them sufficient exercise. They were bred for sports. Show line doesn't show that level of intelligence as the working line, but they are less agressive. Actually, here we can say, that all non-agressive breeds as well show much lower level of intelligence in general than originally bred and preserved.



So if you were born a GSD, you'd be a "Showline".... wait... I can't insult my showline who is the first and only showline (as I was told at the recent trial) to ever title in PSA.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Part of the philosophy of training I follow is continuous focus and engagement from the dog. The higher drive dogs are much faster to check out or lose interest in the handler after a reward. So your handling of treats and training equipment has to be more proficient.
> 
> When a dog is quickly moving from behavior to behavior, it's harder to mark the correct behavior, mycobraracr stated. Their mind is moving faster, so your mark and reward window in time is smaller. It's also harder to make the dog miss when playing tug. Everything just happens faster, so your reactions and movements have to match the dog.
> 
> ...


I think I'm in the same boat as Gwenhwyfair, my marking needs work and I miss cues at times. Thanks for the explanation.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

reinorshine said:


> Thanks, I will try and narrow down my list and ask if anyone knows more on the breeder section. I am very thankful for this site!



check your PMs as well

Lee


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Josie/Zeus said:


> So if you were born a GSD, you'd be a "Showline".... wait... I can't insult my showline who is the first and only showline (as I was told at the recent trial) to ever title in PSA.


Gotta love those A-T dogs 

I'm hoping to get up to Michigan for a visit when I get home on leave. 

David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Some people have faster reflexes then others. I'm slower and it can really inhibit training. If I take to long to correct or mark a behavior the dog cannot make the connection between the behavior and what I've rewarded or corrected. This leads to inconsistency and that can be frustrating not only for the dog but also a person who is aware they aren't quick enough. 

David explained it well......but I can say I get so mad at myself sometimes because I know enough to know I am too slow and I'm working on it.....but I may never be as good as someone like David or my trainer.





Nigel said:


> I apologise for the derailment OP, but I'm not sure I'm understanding being "too slow", in regards to training/marking/rewarding?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL!

And wow!!! I'm sure you probably posted this elsewhere and I missed it so BIG congrats on a PSA title! 




Josie/Zeus said:


> So if you were born a GSD, you'd be a "Showline".... wait... I can't insult my showline who is the first and only showline (as I was told at the recent trial) to ever title in PSA.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Thanks! I was very surprised actually! I'm uber proud of Koda.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As well you should be!  

Any videos of him working in PSA? 




Josie/Zeus said:


> Thanks! I was very surprised actually! I'm uber proud of Koda.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Here's one from our bbq day, he's at 1:22 mark. Very short because my 4 year old was having a huge fit and wanted to go home.

K9 Working Dogs BBQ day / PSA training. on Vimeo

I will have to find the ones from the trial.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Josie/Zeus said:


> Here's one from our bbq day, he's at 1:22 mark. Very short because my 4 year old was having a huge fit and wanted to go home.
> 
> K9 Working Dogs BBQ day / PSA training. on Vimeo
> 
> I will have to find the ones from the trial.


 

I've seen that video a few times. I didn't know that was your group. Very nice!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh yeah, I've seen this too and neat vid but didn't make the connection!

Nice to see one of the big black and red dogs doing PSA!  Thank you!




Josie/Zeus said:


> Here's one from our bbq day, he's at 1:22 mark. Very short because my 4 year old was having a huge fit and wanted to go home.
> 
> K9 Working Dogs BBQ day / PSA training. on Vimeo
> 
> I will have to find the ones from the trial.


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