# Linebreeeding and Inbreeding



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I've been saying this for years!



> *Linebreeding vs. Inbreeding – Let’s be perfectly clear.*
> _Note: This topic was prompted partly by IPFD's participation in the Canine Health Summit put on by Embark Veterinary. See our Q&A article on breeding and genetics topics here._
> 
> Inbreeding is the mating of related individuals – that is those who have one or more relatives in common. Linebreeding is not simply a form of inbreeding – it IS inbreeding.
> ...







Go here to see the whole article: Linebreeding vs. Inbreeding – Let’s be perfectly clear.

What most breeders are unaware of is at one time many breeders didn't linebreed or inbreed. They bred 'like to like' rather than selecting dogs that were closely related. Yes, this did not produce dogs that were almost carbon copies of each other, as is currently demanded in the show ring, but it preserved the health of the line by avoiding genetic problems.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

It used to be that the expected lifespan of a GSD was 12 to 14 years. Now, I hear people saying that they think any years after 10 are a gift.

Look at the amount of close linebreeding and especially backmassing in both the American and German showlines, and you don't need to ask why!



> Generally, linebreeding is on physical, conformational, or structural characteristics. Not necessarily, and perhaps rarely, primarily on characteristics associated with health and longevity. Therefore, the latter are unlikely to be achieved by inbreeding/linebreeding and will be reduced by the associated decrease in diversity.


I've been told some rather nasty things for believing this, but having actually studied science and genetics (and taught it at the High School level) I know I'm right.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

What is backmassing? Some of you may not know, so I will give an example. This is the father of one of my females. Her mother was American show line, so she herself is a complete outcross, with no common ancestors. She just turned 14 in January, and is in good shape for her age.






Erko vom Haus Tchorz


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Erko vom Haus Tchorz




www.pedigreedatabase.com





If you expand Erko's pedigree so you can see 7 generations, you will see the same dogs popping up again and again.

Palme v. Wildsteiger Land occurs 15 times
Her son, Quando, 4 times
His sisters (littermates) Quana and Quina appear once each.
Uran v. Wildsteigerland, another Palme son, appears 7 times.

You will see other names repeated as well, and if you look at the pedigrees of other show line dogs, you will see they all trace back to these same dogs, over and over again, with very little diversity. The gene pool is very narrow.

You will find the same thing in the American show lines, with all of the current dogs tracing back to Lance of Fran-Jo and his sons.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Something I want to add is that longevity is a very heritable characteristic in both animals and humans. I've heard doctors say if you want to know how long you're likely to live, look at your close relatives - parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles. 

Longevity CAN be selected for, but how many breeders are actually doing this?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Sunsilver said:


> Something I want to add is that longevity is a very heritable characteristic in both animals and humans. I've heard doctors say if you want to know how long you're likely to live, look at your close relatives - parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles.
> 
> Longevity CAN be selected for, but how many breeders are actually doing this?


This part especially is something I've been looking into lately. There are several giant breeds (LGDs) that regularly live to 14/15 years old. The medium to large sized breed dogs who are substantially smaller than them should definitely also be living that long. But a lot of people aren't all that worried about overall longevity and it's hard to select for it when you start breeding dogs at 2 years old and could be 4 generations in by the time the oldest dog dies at 10. And it's much harder to catch middle aged diseases and select against them if you're already several gens in.

I'm getting plans in place for my future breeding programs in order to select for longevity which will include waiting longer to breed for males at least. If you want until 6 to breed a male and his father was also six when he was bred you know the father is at least 12 (barring an accidents) and you should know how long the grandparents lived considering 18 is unlikely for most breeds.

Also depending on inbreeding and then genes behind the dogs being inbred you can actually get longer lived lines even with high COIs but it requires careful breeding, culling, and generally only gets you so far which is why outcrosses are needed. But the issue with purebred populations is that true outcrosses can become pretty much impossible. The paper COI may be very low but as you mentioned with backmassing when all the dogs trace back to the exact same dogs 20 gens in the genetic COI is actually much higher and, well you aren't actually getting the outcross needed. Genetic COI is going to be a handy tool but it is just that, a tool. Somebody recently shared an outcross pairing where half-sibs actually had a lower genetic COI than the breed average. Had a lower COI than dogs that on paper should've had a near 0 COI. So it isn't as simple as inbreeding/linebreeding is bad because sometimes close relatives are theoretically the better breeding choice. But as with many things in life people seem to think if some is good, then more is better.









Selection for maximum longevity in mice


In both mice and men, during the adult life span, aging causes an exponential increase in vulnerability to almost all pathologies. Thus, aging is a se…




www.sciencedirect.com


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

This is an interesting article on mice discussing reproductive traits and longevity. I'm currently interested in potential side effects from early heat cycles but overally long term reproductive soundness is potentially an important part of the puzzle and something that can be seen to decrease with inbreeding with litter sizes of 4-5 instead of the higher numbers they likely would be otherwise. My 50/50 mix came from a litter of 12 and my other dog came from a litter of 8. Some lab breeders are starting to struggle with one puppy litters and apparently berners are really struggling with even getting pregnant in some lines. Lines of mice selected for reproductive longevity - PubMed


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Kazel said:


> ...I'm getting plans in place for my future breeding programs in order to select for longevity which will include waiting longer to breed for males at least. If you want until 6 to breed a male and his father was also six when he was bred you know the father is at least 12 (barring an accidents) and you should know how long the grandparents lived considering 18 is unlikely for most breeds...


If you are referring to breeding GSDs for longevity, I think you are missing the boat. It is hard enough to produce quality, healthy GSDs. Focusing on longevity will not likely lead to producing quality GSDs. If you are breeding simply for pets, I guess it doesn't matter. How will you know what genetic factors contributed to longevity vs. environmental? Would you select breeding partners that have lived longer over potential dogs that have other better traits and are prepotent in passing those traits? Even if you are thinking of breeding another breed, there are far more salient factors than longevity. To me, selecting for longevity is like trying to thread a needle in the dark. Avoiding genetic health issues is one thing but longevity is a very nebulous thing.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> If you are referring to breeding GSDs for longevity, I think you are missing the boat. It is hard enough to produce quality, healthy GSDs. Focusing on longevity will not likely lead to producing quality GSDs. If you are breeding simply for pets, I guess it doesn't matter. How will you know what genetic factors contributed to longevity vs. environmental? Would you select breeding partners that have lived longer over potential dogs that have other better traits and are prepotent in passing those traits? Even if you are thinking of breeding another breed, there are far more salient factors than longevity. To me, selecting for longevity is like trying to thread a needle in the dark. Avoiding genetic health issues is one thing but longevity is a very nebulous thing.


This point of view is why progress isn't made by a lot of people in longevity, just throw in the towel and focus on the "best" and watch GSDs become the next Doberman. I will note I emphasize healthy longevity as different than overall longevity. I also consider a different type of dog a quality of dog than some other people do. I am currently looking at several other breeds that already have good longevity as something common and as such I'd be starting from a good place. The one breeder I've looked (chinooks not GSDs but they have strong GSD background) barring an accident have been dying at 16 years old. They are the same size as GSDs and some of them look just like saddless GSDs. 

Also like all things in breeding longevity is only a consideration you don't want to overfocus on one trait to avoid others but you also have to start somewhere. I would definitely choose a healthy mediocre producing 12-13 year old (likely frozen semen) over a dog that died at 8 due to health concerns even if the 8 year old produced amazing dogs. Some things you can tell were obviously environmental such as freak accidents and such and those would be gaps in data but it happens. You can only do the best you can with the data you have. You can make progress with mediocre dogs, it's a lot harder to fix dogs dropping dead at 6. Longevity especially extreme longevity is found to be fairly heritable and dogs living longer (ignoring those alive via human medical intervention) tend to be "escapers" so breeding for long longevity also tends to breed for escaping health disorders, particularly those we can't test for but are genetic. 

One important thing to be brought up is the environment we live in today is the environment the dogs are living in and will continue to live in. So if you're breeding dogs that can't handle it, well it says something. For example yes raw is likely better (when done right) than dog kibble. But plenty of dogs can do just fine and do well on kibble. So breeding dogs that can't handle kibble is just breeding another type of food intolerance. It doesn't matter that raw is better because kibble is the norm. Feed raw but don't use it as a way out of breeding dogs that can't handle the environment. Dogs were raised up on our scraps, they can handle grains more than wolves can they developed to live alongside us and eat what we eat (mostly some things are toxic to them, I don't expect people to be breeding dogs that can eat grapes and chocolate.)

Each litter is important but I believe in preserving and maintaining the breed over the honestly toxic phrase of bettering the breed. That encourages breeding to win and as such breeding for extremes to get an edge over the competition. Eventually it can lead to not bettering the breed at all but destroying the true spirit of the breed. Show or sport an extreme dog is an extreme dog. It also doesn't allow for a "drop" in quality in order to preserve the breed, breeding long term with a goal in mind to improve. I'm not saying to produce crap dogs or breed pups that will be extremely flawed. You have to breed 20 years in the future too so set yourself up for success and work for big picture too not just per litter. So yes maybe this B litter won't be the perfect goal of your breeding program but they're still good and solid puppies and with them you can breed a better litter D, E, F etc. Look out for the future of your breed and this isn't always done by breeding the very "best". Plenty of mediocre dogs outproduce themselves while some excellent dogs produce crap.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

You can make progress with mediocre dogs, it's a lot harder to fix dogs dropping dead at 6

Bang on the money, Kazel! Far too many well-known showline sires have dropped dead at a young age!

As for gut health, allergies, etc. - I hear of SO many people who have issues with food intolerance in their dogs, chronic diarrhea, etc. that it's definitely worth trying to breed away from these things.

My 14 year old has an absolute cast-iron gut. She has swallowed things that would have put most other dogs in the hospital (rotten food out of the garbage, toys, bedding, half a nylon leash, a complete collar) and not even blinked an eye. I wasn't even aware she'd eaten the collar until I tried to find it when I needed it for my other dog several days later. When I found the buckle on the floor, I assumed it was part of my leatherworking supplies that the dogs had gotten into! There was no fabric left on the buckle to show it had ever been attached to anything.

Oh, and she also eats poop. Maybe THAT'S why her gut is so healthy... 

It is not that hard to choose for longevity. When choosing a stud, find a breeder that's been breeding similar lines for several generations, and ask them how long their dogs generally live. My younger dog, Eska, has a grandmother that made it to 15, and her father is still very active and healthy (and doing bitework for fun) at age 11.


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