# Correction for fear reaction?



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Samson began reacting fearfully towards strangers at around 6 mths of age.For the past 10 mths I have been doing the usual counter conditioning routine,attempting to replace the anxiety with an alternate behavior,which is to focus on me instead of the scary person.He's doing very well and only gets tense if someone stares at him.We've finished a basic class where he remained neutral and relaxed after a tense first class.

This weekend we had company over for a backyard cookout and he was ok with our guests,even soliciting pets from them,and was totally relaxed.But if anyone stood up and walked he would follow them,hackles raised,barking.After a couple of these instances I had him laying next to me when someone stood up to walk.When he gathered himself to leap up I popped him on the flank with my fingertips(Caesar's "touch") and he settled right back down.Hmm.

What I'm wondering is if he's at a point where the reactivity is no longer fear but is more of a habitual reaction? Should I begin to correct in specific instances like the aforementioned?Another scenario would be when we're walking by people and someone makes eye contact with him a second longer than he's comfortable with and he gives his little growl.Correction with a leash pop or touch,then reward when he gives me eye contact?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> Samson began reacting fearfully towards strangers at around 6 mths of age.For the past 10 mths I have been doing the usual counter conditioning routine,attempting to replace the anxiety with an alternate behavior,which is to focus on me instead of the scary person.He's doing very well and only gets tense if someone stares at him.We've finished a basic class where he remained neutral and relaxed after a tense first class.
> 
> This weekend we had company over for a backyard cookout and he was ok with our guests,even soliciting pets from them,and was totally relaxed.But if anyone stood up and walked he would follow them,hackles raised,barking.After a couple of these instances I had him laying next to me when someone stood up to walk.When he gathered himself to leap up I popped him on the flank with my fingertips(Caesar's "touch") and he settled right back down.Hmm.
> 
> What I'm wondering is if he's at a point where the reactivity is no longer fear but is more of a habitual reaction? Should I begin to correct in specific instances like the aforementioned?Another scenario would be when we're walking by people and someone makes eye contact with him a second longer than he's comfortable with and he gives his little growl.Correction with a leash pop or touch,then reward when he gives me eye contact?


It could be a conditioned response but still I would not let him associate others with a correction or even the Cesar thing. You did well in keeping him with you in situations that he cannot handle. if he goes over over his threshold, call his name in a happy voice and give him something to do. Try to avoid situations that are difficult but keep him in the "gray" area so he can see but not react yet. If you want to enjoy your company, work with him for a few minutes, then put him away and get him back later for another session so he can digest all of this and you can enjoy human company. I would not let him mingle on his own but keeping him on leash only to avoid set backs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well, you are not wrong in "correcting for fear." Jeff Gellman says, "yes you can correct for fear!" Good enough for me!

Sorry can't find the clip. 

But that aside, "out think" your dog! If you are doing the same thing over and over again and it's not working, time to do something different!

First my standard links:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

"Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" the walk part. The pro's have a problem with the rest of the advice in the article! They don't recommend it and neither do I. But the Walk part?? In essence, keep people out of your dogs face! Ignore and move on. If you choose to meet and greet..you set the terms, not the dog! 

In essence by "walking your dog" you show him how you "expect him to behave " and that you have there back! They get that!

Next..."Sit on the Dog" I thought it was only for dogs with "problems??" But some of the pro's have said they have all their clients do this with their dogs, good enough!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/426322-selzer-sitting-dog.html
Wheres my sanity: Sit on the Dog, aka: The long down
Energy - it's all about confid-tude

And...of course! "The Place Command:"
TheDogTrainingSecret.com -
The Magic Of Duration Work | The Good Dog Life Blog[/url
]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE

"Every dog" should know the "Place Command" it can prevent "issues" before they happen! 

And not saying this is separation anxiety but lots to learn by reading this... "insight" as it were! And I don't do the treadmill thing myself. I don't like leashes on dogs on stuff that moves!

Soo as is often the case with me, lots of links and lots of info! :crazy:

But "individually" none of it is hard. Put them all together and I think you can change the dog you have into the dog you want! 

Oh and don't know if this is needed?? But the walk part, I suggest using a real train! Train like the Pro's! Flat Collar and leash, Slip Lead Leash or a Prong Collar (they all require proper use!). If those don't work?? Yet again you are doing something wrong!

In any case in use with any of those tools, the walk should look like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv75lADEbRM

Hope this helps.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Thanks Wolfy and Chip!Lots of food for thought!


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Just to touch on what Chip18 said. My guy was/is? reactive to other dogs. I took him to a Reactive Rover class with a behaviorist. I worked with another behaviorist in private lessons. Did counter conditioning, "Look at That," and BAT where the dog basic picks where he goes on a walk. Saw little to no improvement over a six months period.

Went to an IPO club. Training Director said my GSD had no idea he wasn't supposed to bark and lunge. He needs a correction!! So I have been working on focus on me (Fuss) and I correct with a prong collar if he looks at another dog (in other words, doesn't focus on me.)

Let me put this into context. My guy broke my shoulder in June barking and lunging at two small dogs that walked along the side of my truck (I didn't know until they were "on top of us") as I got my GSD out of his crate in back. Took me down before I realized what was happening. As I was going down I knew one thing, no matter what don't let go! This was the first time I got him out of the truck at the IPO club. Gee, what a humble producing introduction . . .

Today, my guy saw other dogs some quite close with no reaction--except one time--he lost focus and looked at another dog. I corrected and he looked back at me. Got verbal and food reward. The change is amazing!! My training director said he is ready to move to working on a fur saver.

I don't regret doing "all positive," where the behaviorists said if you correct you just suppress and not fix it. Well, he broke my shoulder! I want a dog under control!!!

I use lots of treats. Sometimes even raw meat. But I also correct--it has made a huge difference in my dog's behavior. The IPO training director was correct--he didn't know that he wasn't supposed to bark and lunge.

I know Samson doesn't have a dog reaction, but i wanted to share my experience. I was so worried that they wouldn't let us in the club, but the training director said it was very fixable--especially since my guy is still a puppy at 1.5 yrs. old.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Moriah said:


> I don't regret doing "all positive," where the behaviorists said if you correct you just suppress and not fix it. Well, he broke my shoulder! I want a dog under control!!!
> 
> I use lots of treats. Sometimes even raw meat. But I also correct--it has made a huge difference in my dog's behavior. The IPO training director was correct--he didn't know that he wasn't supposed to bark and lunge.
> 
> I know Samson doesn't have a dog reaction, but i wanted to share my experience. I was so worried that they wouldn't let us in the club, but the training director said it was very fixable--especially since my guy is still a puppy at 1.5 yrs. old.


I agree. Starting with the most gentle techniques and go with the flow. Ever since having these intense dogs I have adjusted my methods to whatever works. No abuse because that doesn't work. My U turn happened when WD pulled me over when he saw his best buddy to romp with. Prong collar made the world of difference. As long as your dog is not deadly afraid of the other dog or whatever scares him and he is able to focus on you and take treats, this sounds do-able.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The key to purifying the reason for why a correction happened is discrimination. 

A dog will associate a correction with a person if the person enters the picture and the dog gets corrected till the person leaves.

The dog associates the correction with the behavior if the person enters the picture the dog does the behavior then gets corrected till the behavior stops and the person remains in the picture. Its simple discrimination.

You dont correct fear you correct the operant behavior you dont want to see anymore.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

correct for disobeying a command, not for reacting. Managing the reactivity is important, proactively give a command so the dog will get corrected if not complying, it'll redirect the dogs attention from what they are reacting to. PRAISE, throw a party with high value reward if the dog needs no correction. 
LAT does work as well. 
My dog ramped up when she was corrected for her reactivity...it backfired on us, so I used the LAT method and it worked/more clear to her.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What is LAT?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ramps up if you correct too late at insufficient intensity to prevent the rest of the behavior from playing out. You must correct at the very first hints of the behavior not after the dog is already flipping out.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

wolfy dog said:


> What is LAT?


https://clickerleash.wordpress.com/...itive-approach-to-dealing-with-reactive-dogs/


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Baillif said:


> Ramps up if you correct too late at insufficient intensity to prevent the rest of the behavior from playing out. You must correct at the very first hints of the behavior not after the dog is already flipping out.





> Managing the reactivity is important, proactively give a command


yes, watch and manage before the dog is at that level.Some dogs are hard, and not biddable so 'not so much flipping out' though the aggression level is increased because the correction(PRONG) adds to the excitement. Biddable dogs seldom need that because they are willing to please, and want to please. A dog with their own agenda, will just keep trying to prove their agenda. It does depend on the individual dog. 
The handler needs to show the dog they have their world under control which takes that burden off the dog...fear aggression sometimes surfaces because the dog can't deal with thinking they need to control everything. Once that pressure comes off, the dog can relax and look to the handler for direction and security.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks. Just didn't know the acronym but work with dogs and this method. If only people would follow through.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

This guy goes through the problem with counter-conditioning quite thoroughly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfmpVg5oRPE


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Moriah,thank you!!!!This is what I was hoping for as a response.Someone with the exact same dilemma!There are specific instances where a dog becomes reactive with zero warning and it needs to be managed in a way that doesn't cause more anxiety.Reading your experiences has been super helpful.

We have been doing all positive training and it has been very effective except for the couple of scenarios I mentioned and I was getting the impression that the behaviors were habitual responses as opposed to anxious reactions.I think that correction,look at me,BACON is the new plan.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Bailiff that makes a lot of sense to me about stopping the behavior while the person remains.I don't want to make a mistake and inadvertently make things worse.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Get professional help. They can coach you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

what part of the state are you located, dogma13?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Baillif said:


> The key to purifying the reason for why a correction happened is discrimination.
> 
> A dog will associate a correction with a person if the person enters the picture and the dog gets corrected till the person leaves.
> 
> ...


Totally makes sense to me.This is exactly the specific information I needed.

Thanks to all for your responses!All of your input is extremely helpful.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> what part of the state are you located, dogma13?


North of Bay City


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

dogma13 said:


> Moriah,thank you!!!!This is what I was hoping for as a response.Someone with the exact same dilemma!


Yes, but. It doesn't sound like Moriah's dog is reacting out of fear, which to me would make a difference in how I dealt with the behavior. 

I've had two pretty leash reactive dogs - Cassidy, who was a temperamental mess with weak nerves, and Keefer, who has always been extremely social. His reactivity was not fear based, it was due to frustration. He'd bark at a dog from a distance, but is totally fine with dogs in his face. And once he gets to meet a dog up close and personal, he's completely cool, hanging out with no further reactions. It's being restrained by a leash and prevented from the greeting that he wants to do that causes his reactions. 

Since there is no risk of blowback with Keefer, I can correct him to let him know that's not acceptable behavior. He still sometimes gets excited about approaching dogs, and I need to remind him that he is actually capable of controlling his impulses and doesn't need to act like a butthead. But what works perfectly fine with him is not something I'd have even considered trying with Cassidy. Different dogs, different root causes of the behavior, different approaches. Although he's a big sweet mush of a dog, and very handler sensitive, he's quite resilient to corrections, which is something else that's good to know. He never takes it personally or redirects towards the other dog if I correct him. 

Halo is much more neutral towards other dogs, but will sometimes get snarky on leash if the other dog is staring at her and barking and lunging. Since she's got rock solid nerves, I can let her know to knock it off without worrying about negative consequences.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> The key to purifying the reason for why a correction happened is discrimination.
> 
> A dog will associate a correction with a person if the person enters the picture and the dog gets corrected till the person leaves.
> 
> ...





onyx'girl said:


> correct for disobeying a command, not for reacting. Managing the reactivity is important, proactively give a command so the dog will get corrected if not complying, it'll redirect the dogs attention from what they are reacting to. PRAISE, throw a party with high value reward if the dog needs no correction.
> LAT does work as well.
> My dog ramped up when she was corrected for her reactivity...it backfired on us, so I used the LAT method and it worked/more clear to her.


Correct the behaviour and not the dog?? Most likely that was explained in the link I could not find?? So thanks, folks!

Have to say.. a lot of acronyms and terms being thrown out here...just saying.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Hey Debbie!Thanks!I'm interested in all different perspectives.I am sort of stuck on how to correct my anxious boy without compounding his anxiety.Got a lot different ways to look at the problem now and I sincerely appreciate all who took the time to help


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogma13 - in my experience, a correction to shut down the reaction immediately followed by a behavior modification method ( I used LAT as Jane did) is what worked for me. You can use a correction collar for it but it must be well timed and WITHOUT EMOTION. Do not say a word. You need the dog to associate the correction with the action, not with you or with the person/dog. 

With Jax, I used an e-collar. With Seger, when he was young and just being dumb, I used a nylon choker. The difference between the two is that Jax is truly reactive where Seger is stable but was young and dumb so just needed to learn that behavior was not acceptable. If you choose to use a correction collar, I highly advise doing so under the guide of a trainer.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> You can use a correction collar for it but it must be well timed and WITHOUT EMOTION. Do not say a word. You need the dog to associate the correction with the action, not with you or with the person/dog.


 To this point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Correct the behaviour and not the dog?? Most likely that was explained in the link I could not find?? So thanks, folks!
> 
> Have to say.. a lot of acronyms and terms being thrown out here...just saying.


Opps meant to use exclamation points Correct the behaviour and not the dog!!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Update:
Your advice worked like a charm Baillif!Had two opportunities this weekend when he growled at someone making eye contact.A quick leash pop,look at me,treat,then remained in the presence of the other person.He took the correction and chilled right out immediately.Nice!


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

Fascinating discussion in which @dogma13 , who is now an oldtimer, is learning to work through a reactivity issue.

@Cassidy's Mom makes an interesting point between fear and frustration as a cause of reactivity. I have recently been noting a difference in Ole's reactivity towards some big, calm dogs. His bark is higher pitched and he doesn't go stiff. Going to have to follow up on that next time we are out.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Well,I have to say I learned to substitute a sharp "Eh!" and then give him something else to do that I can praise him for.Keeping him busy and not letting him dwell on what makes him uncomfortable.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Well,I have to say I learned to substitute a sharp "Eh!" and then give him something else to do that I can praise him for.Keeping him busy and not letting him dwell on what makes him uncomfortable.


I try to catch Shadow before she reacts and redirect. Nine years of practice has honed my skills. But I do miss sometimes and it's too late to redirect so I correct and then redirect. I do know that in Shadows case it is fear. Very real fear.
Threads like this one are immensely helpful for newcomers looking for help and for others who need a refresher, new ideas or just to feel less alone.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> Well,I have to say I learned to substitute a sharp "Eh!"





Sabis mom said:


> I try to catch Shadow before she reacts and redirect. Nine years of practice has honed my skills.


'Eh!' such a simple word .... which the experts have practiced 1,000s or 10,000s of times to get the timing and intonation just right to meet the need to the dog and the situation.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Exactly!It becomes second nature.Knowing what makes our dogs uncomfortable and being proactive to keep them steady.Samson will be six next month.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

davewis said:


> @Cassidy's Mom makes an interesting point between fear and frustration as a cause of reactivity. I have recently been noting a difference in Ole's reactivity towards some big, calm dogs. His bark is higher pitched and he doesn't go stiff. Going to have to follow up on that next time we are out.


Wow, old thread! Interesting to see stuff I wrote many years ago, lol. Keefer had a high pitched, whiny, kind of bark, like flushing prey, which sounds like what Ole might be doing as well, not an aggressive bark. And he was super social, almost obsessively friendly, so it was very clear that the root of his reactivity was very different than Cassidy's.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

We got a chance to work in the field behind the dog park. We stay outside the fence, but are able to get close enough I could pay attention to Ole's vocalizations towards other dogs.
He showed annoyance towards a pushy beagle.
He showed fear towards a husky that just sat and stared at us. To be honest, this guy's intensity kind of freaked me out too.
He showed excitement/frustration towards a really calm Bernese Mountain Dog. He wanted to go see him.

Interesting changes. He is a much different dog than he was 5 weeks ago.


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