# Leaking Drive in Obedience



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I didn’t want to hijack the other post. Wondering...

Would those who have dogs who leak drive in obedience share your experiences? 
- What behaviors do you observe in your dog?
- What training methods have you used to help your dog cap his/her drive?
- If you could go back, what would you do differently?
- What was your biggest challenge? How did you overcome it?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vala likes to scream when I am setting up for the retrieves and the send out. Not sure I call it leaking since she doesn't do it during the rest of the routine. Just excitement. Vala is extremely driven with a tremendous amount of intensity. She also talks when we do a lot of tight maneuvers during our warm up. That is frustration. 

I remind her to sit (since screaming is not part of sitting) and we do nothing until she shuts up. 

Maybe started a hair sooner. 

Your last question is answered in the first two.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't know much about this. I haven't had a dog who someone described as leaky. 

I noticed that my pup today would vocalize as I presented the dumbell to him.. a sorta yelp as he launched to grab it. Leaking.. I don't know... it is sort of explosive exclamation as he dives onto the grip. 

I have seen dogs whine a lot in obedience. The shelties are famous for barking during obed. I have wondered what is the cause? I thought sometimes it looked like nerve that couldn't contain the dog, but I bet there is more than one cause for various vocalizations.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I may have not used the correct terminology in my post title and question. The reason for the post was the discussion in the “Barking during Obedience” thread. A few people mentioned their dogs overloading or leaking drive and I wondered how people train in this situation. Not wanting to change the subject on the barking thread, I started a new one. Maybe I should have asked...

What do you do when your dog overloads during obedience training?


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Good topic. I had my 11 month male in the yard doing some obedience for the first time in a while. We had a large amount of snow that has finally melted. He is fine with recall, retrieve, sitz, platz, etc but when we fuss he goes nuts. He loads up so much it sounds like I'm abusing him but starts short of barking. I can calm him by stopping and talking/stroking his head. 

When I get the ball out he loads up so much that his bottom jaw quivers, sometimes audibly. If we are working inside I can put the ball on top of his kennel and he will ignore it but pick it up and the world ends for that ball.


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## Dinahmyte (Sep 26, 2004)

Eris sounds a bit like Lisa's Vala. She definitely yells at me when we are doing tight heeling like pivots to work on her position. I agree that it is frustration in that part. I have also noticed it sometimes when doing a pick up, or heeling work in protection. I give the command, if she screams, I just wait it out. I am sure to praise when I give a command and she is quiet, we wait a second and then move forward with the exercise. I honestly don't mind it too much, I am pretty good at waiting it out til she calms a bit. It is not excessive in my mind, so I don't know that I would do anything different. She has screamed during retrieves as well, that is excitement. I tell her sit again because like Lisa said screaming is not a part of sitting, or I will heel away and set up again. The cause of it is probably me getting a little too excited, and she feeds off of it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Couple things I do that may contribute to less of this loading up. First, I alway teach basic sit and down with food as puppy where I can withhold the reward if I get anything but good calm sits or downs without barking or loading. Second, when I start formal obedience I spend a lot of time on the down initially. Right now my 13 month old male during training will get 5 minutes of movement obedience, and I'm up to 10 minutes in platz, with me twenty feet away, while somebody else is working. I will probably really start demanding obedience from him in another two months, but by that time he should be able to down for 20 minutes with distractions. This is important to me that he learn to settle on the field "first" before we go to other obedience parts in which I will put him in drive. Third, I do not use things that cause him to overload...so the ball is out right now and so is the tug, and I remain on food until i have the heeling mechanics where I want it without drive or stimulants.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

What do you do for a dog that would lie calmly in a down forever and finds food just as motivating as any toy?







Sometimes we just need to wait them out so they realize that calm gets them drive satisfaction and reward for the calm. Some dogs get so much joy out of working that they sometimes have to talk (I am not talking about dogs that whine/bark during the long down and all during a routine).


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

You all have me on the edge of my seat-- especially Cliftonanderson!

I'm trying so very hard to understand how to use the motivating tools we have (food, tug, ball, praise etc) withOUT the dog getting so overexcited that he "loses the lesson."

I'm very interested in hearing about the use of stationary commands, of not moving forward until you have quiet, etc. I guess we want the drive there, just at a level where we still can teach something new, and keep the dog in sync with us even when he or she wants something badly. 

Keep posting. Thank you! I'm learning a great deal!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfKeep posting. Thank you! I'm learning a great deal!


I agree! Great stuff.  Thanks.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are dogs that have genetic reasons for overloading without a doubt, but I see many people create these behavoirs early in training and then it becomes habit forming to the dog. I see people with adequare driven dogs trying to create more drive before the dog is fully imprinted to "execute " the command correctly. This happens often in heeling training. So we have this young puppy(6 to 12 months), that you see drive drive drive being built but the puppy hasn't learned to heel correctly yet. Usually, this results in behavoirs and hecticness that becomes a learned behavoir as the drive is manufactured that later on has to be torn down.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

So your think people have the tendency to move from food to ball too quickly? How long do you usually stay with food? I know you mention a young dog 13 months. How long do you plan to use food with him?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1...Usually, this results in behavoirs and hecticness that becomes a learned behavoir as the drive is manufactured that later on has to be torn down.


So, how does one tear it down?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Fascinating thread! Bumping this up for exposure.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Before Cody retired, he would always jump high from a sit, and I mean HIGH. It didn't start until I was in schH with him a year later, we started between 03-04. He would also DRAG me to the field, had to work real slow on that, maybe months because I would let him do that and didn't see anything wrong with it until I learned they had to walk calmly on a leash to the field... He also got so wound up on the protection part that he would BARK BARK BARK BARK constantly. Couldn't fix it or guess never thought too, then he ended up getting arthritis. I don't know if this is the same thing but thought I should share anyways.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jason, In many cases I think they do. If you are talking about an accomplished handler or trainer obviously this wouldn't apply. But I see many people move to fast in all aspects of training. 
Now in answer to you question, I will take him off of food and transfer him to tug/ball when I feel his execution of the heeling exercise to include straight ahead, left/right/about turns are smooth and ingrained. Then, I will move to doing these things in drive. This dog has the potential to quiver with pent up energy when I stimulate him. I am not going to teach him correctness and compete with this intensity. I can ALWAYS rev up the drive....but I want to do it without continually correcting because we are still learning.
Its the same with protection right now...I am working on H&B and bite with calm grips afterward...he is doing great, but He is strong dog and would thrash in a minute if I let him. We also do escpe bites(usually three) before we go off the field. I put him in down, walk away to blind, and decoy breaks. We work on rewarding him for intense focus on decoy(really no issue), lengthening time until decoy takes off, but for me most importantly as much as he likes to bite he must learn to be calm, waiting for the opportunity and yet stay intense. I don't want to wait too late to acclimate him to RESTRAINT while in drive. Not saying my way is right or only way, just saying for this dog it is working very well.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

What Cliff is saying is similar to what I do as well. I have never had a dog that I trained from a puppy , bark at me in obedience . I think what Cliff is saying is quite common and it is the same in protection where people try to get too much out of the dog too soon. They do that and then the dog matures on top of that training and then you have an out of control mess. 

Some people think you can never have enough drive which, in my experience, is simply not true. I have said it before but I will say it one more time. There is a perfect level of drive for everything you teach the dog. I will now add that there is a perfect level of drive for a certain age the dog is at as well. You can't get all there is to get out of a one or two year old dog but people sure seem determined to try . That causes more problems than I can count. IMO, it is the MAIN source of most of the problems you see in the dogs but it does go both ways. Dogs who either are not enough in drive or what we are talking about here where there is simply too much. People are simply too obsessed with drive because they want that flashy performance. 

If you consider the drive level of your dog in terms of the tachometer on your car, IMO, 3000 rmps is about optimal. If you rev your dog up to 4000, (or leave him at 2500), that is when you see the problems. In obedience, less drive means lack of attention, slowness, a flat performance etc. A dog too high in drive is not correct, whines, bumps you etc. There is a "just right" place and for the purpose of this thread I will call it 3000 rpms. 
When you teach your dog to consistently load to 3000, that is the level he will load to. Why? Because dogs do what we teach them to do, that's why. If you teach the dog to one day load to 2500, the next to 4000 and so on, your dog will become a "box of chocolates" where you never know what you are going to get on trial day. Why? Because you re-enforced him at a number of different drive levels so, now the dog will go to each one, trying to get you to give him what he wants. Those behaviors become buttons the dog pushes trying to get the ball, treat or praise. So, it is always best to teach the dog to load to the level where he can perform the best vs trying to get him too high and then momentarily trying to bring him back down so he is correct. Once you let that cat, ( drive), out of the bag, you are not shoving it back in, not without creating other problems. 

Amy asked how you "tear it down". Well, you can only do that temporarily on a sometimes basis . This is because the dog will always revert to what he learned first. You see this all the time in protection where people try to come up with tricks to keep the dog clean in a trial because they taught him to work in overload. When a dog is overloaded, he will be dirty because too much aggression brings that behavior. Yeah, maybe they can be successful once or twice controlling the dog or they use a shock collar. IMO, it is much easier to just work the dog at a level where he can still be able to THINK. GSDs were bred to think but boy ,oh boy , do people go out of their way to try to get them not to.

So, to sum it up. Teach the dog to load to the right drive level. What that level is depends on the dog and it is up to the trainer to understand when enough is enough and to adjust when necessary. For some reason, people feel like they can get away with constantly re-enforcing the wrong behavior and they can adjust it later. I've just never seen that happen. Dogs learn VERY quickly and if you teach them to push multiple buttons, or one button that takes them too high in drive, that is what you are going to get. 

Now I will add this to Amy. Sometimes, the people have an effect on their dogs that makes the dog nervous. When dogs are nervous, they want to move to relieve that stress. It can be barking or jumping on you whatever. So, since I recall you talking about how you got nervous when you first went out to your club resulting in your dog not wanting to out the toy, I think I can say that there is a possibility that you may still be having that kind of effect of him. So, ask yourself constantly, "how am I feeling". Am I nervous ...am I distracted? and so on. I do not think people give their own moods enough consideration and while you may not be nervous anymore, it might be something else that looks like nervous to your dog. Maybe have someone watch YOU when you work your dog. That can be very helpful. I recall one person who came out here to train who was way too nervous herself but when I pointed it out, could not see or was not at all willing to admit it. Sometimes there is an urgency to the way people move or interact with their dogs that brings out this drive and they have a hard time understanding how something so subtle can have such a huge impact. You will have to trust me here on this one, it does! Dogs pick up the tiniest cues, so, if you want to be in control of the dog, you have to be in control of yourself.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Anne,

Thank you!!!! You hit the nail on the head. I had a very frustrating training session last week. It seems like every time we work on obedience at the club it turns into a session on "outing" because he "can't" let go of the tug. With the discussion on the other thread about pack drive, I really got thinking about this and had a conversation with Chris. I don't think it is nerves so much anymore because I feel very comfortable at the club now. But, Bison does have high pack drive. He is very reactive to my moods. My initial nerviousness and now frustration has caused him to have negative associations with doing obedience at the club. 

So, I spent the last week really thinking about what I learned about pack drive. At home, I worked on obedience without stress to regain the ground I lost. Making obedience fun again. I also tried some different play method with two toys or a combo of food and toys and the the interaction being the reward instead of the objects. I have also been coaching myself. I know I get a little too goal oriented sometimes and I want to be moving on to actually learn some new things in obedience, hence the frustration level. Not really with Bison, but with my lack of experience and knowledge. 

So Saturday, I used the acting method that I mentioned on the other thread. When I got Bison out of the truck I told him "No pressure, I am not going to make you out the tug. We are going to have fun and not worry about learning anything new today. We are just going to play. You want to play?" Of course the only words he understood were "You want to play?", but he did understand my calmer manner and tone.

It was night and day different from last week. He kept possession of the tug so when he was stressed, he could chew on it, but the reward was the interaction with me. "Free" means I grab the tug and we play. I let go to give the commands. It actually worked really well. We had a great time. Bison wasn't experiencing the stress of "oh I am feeling stressed and the tug in my mouth makes me feel calmer but now she wants me to give it up and I can't and now she is unhappy with me..." I am sure that after a few more weeks like this he won't feel the NEED to keep the tug anymore.

Now my challenge is to find that 3000 rmps that you talked about (great analogy BTW). I have done OB with him since he was a puppy, just not SchH. He already knows most of the commands except needing to clean up the heeling. What is challenging is that when I use just food in a non-drive state, he is distracted by all the other "stuff" going on. He was trained at home, so he isn't used to the distractions. When I use the toy, he was getting too rampped up then I get frustrated cause he can't focus then I get the situation as described above. 

Cliff, I really like your approach. It makes a lot of sense. But I am having a difficult time applying it to an older dog starting out.

So that big long explanation just to ask... How do you all find that consistency that Anne talked about in a each session, to set the pace at 3000. I have seen the 2500 where the dog doesn't really engage and is more interested in the people on the side of the field or the cute female on the other side of the field. And I have seen the 4000 where he is whinning and I have to call his name and circle him just to get him to the point where he can "hear" the sit command.

Any suggestions? Does it sound like I am on the right track?


.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks Cliff and Anne. Very informative read!


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