# Thoughts on new trainer’s method?



## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Hiya! I’ve started working with a trainer (online) in order to help prevent some general behavioural issues that I know GSDs are prone to and to help assist with some things that little Dani was starting to have trouble with. She’s 4 months old and when we got her a month ago she was fearful of large passing vehicles as well as very aloof/intolerant of meeting strangers, so I wanted to stack a few cards in my favour early on. I went with a small facility that is well-respected within the circle of trainers and working/spordog owners I follow on social media. I liked what I saw in terms of results and philosophy so I gave them a try.

I just wanted to get some opinions on what they’ve advised for me to do so far! I’m trusting them and seeing where their approach gets us, but I’m curious about what others might think of their methods because they might be seen as kinda intense by some, especially folks in pet dog circles.

Basically, Dani is to either be actively engaged with me (working for her food or engaging in structured play) or crated. The sessions out of her crate are to be kept short so that she doesn’t start checking out of our session and trying to engage with her environment/losing value in my presence and the food. If I let her out of her crate and she won’t work for her food, she goes back in for a bit and we try again. This basically means no long walks, no “hanging out” with us and lots of time settling in her crate.

My boyfriend is having some trouble with “taking away her freedom” since he views dogs more as furry children than anything, but ultimately I’m the “dog-savvy” one and he trusts my judgement when it comes to all care— he’s in charge of giving the best belly rubs, lol. She didnt have much “freedom” in the first place as we kept her on leash at all times even prior to the training and gave her plenty of crate breaks. Personally I’d rather help guide her into making good choices rather than give her the freedom to make bad ones. I was a bit worried about general lack of enrichment and exercise but I might be assuming she needs a lot more than she does at this stage. She still gets both just in smaller doses. I’d eventually love to have a dog that can be trusted with a bit of freedom!! All in good time I guess.

So yeah, let me know what you think! Would you try that with your pup? Or does your dog have run of the house n “their” side of the bed, haha?

Puppy tax:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So to help your dog interact with her environment take it away from her? I understand the theory I think, but doubtful it would be my approach. I think the trainer is looking to make you the centre of your pups world so she will never focus on anything else. She sounds like just a bit of a shy girl, possibly under exposed as a pup.

She is very pretty btw


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Although you're trainer goes contrary to what I'd advise, perhaps he knows something?!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Is there a goal you are working toward where this is a short step? Did you ask the trainer that?

I guess I'd ask that. It may be because she is so over threshold the minute you go out the door they are trying to eliminate that and build your value to her and ability to get thru to her.

I can't imagine having a puppy that never gets to just goof off and be a puppy or run and play in the grass, but you do have a problem where the puppy is afraid as soon as you go out the door, right?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

What are your plans for your dog long term? I don’t think I’m fully understanding the issues you’re having either. I wouldn’t say you’re trainer is wrong, but it’s a way of training I’d expect to see from someone looking to raise a high level working dog. Nothing wrong with it necessarily, but not usually how most dogs are raised.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You already know that genetically, her nerves are an issue. By isolating her so much you are essentially providing an impoverished environment and limiting her opportunities to learn and explore. It is better to take her out to as many new places and see different people and dogs, especially because she is young and needs the exposure and isn't mature enough to do anything that would upset people. With the virus thing, she doesn't need to be pet by people or touch other dogs, but she should see many new places. Expose her to environmental challenges like walking on metal stairs and elevated areas and different surfaces. Take her around places with loud noises and start at a distance and get closer to the noise as she acclimates. If her food drive is good she won't check out on you and you don't want training sessions to be too long anyway.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You are going to get 1000 different opinions by asking this question. I"m sure you have talked in depth with the trainers prior to coming up with a plan. Stay consistent. To much input only confuses you and then will confuse the dog. 

IMO, what they are doing is a sport foundation to teach the dog to focus on you. I don't disagree with it. Teaching her engagement and obedience will help with a weak nerved dog. If this is working for you, don't break it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You are very limited in what you can do with her outside your home. Do you have a yard? Are there places you can take her for down time when she isn’t working without violating your local plan?. How much time a day does the trainer want her crated?

I raised mine using the tether plan as a young puppy and had I known the outcome, I would have done less of that and much more off leash from 8 weeks.

I agree with Jax. You have started using a method that was recommended by a trainer you like. Stick with it. I switched trainers several times and didn’t find one I liked until 7 months. By then some behaviors were set. He was able to turn a lot of it around, but I would have Ben much better off had I found him earlier and stuck with one plan.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Frankly, I know people that raise their sport dogs similar to this. Mine are part of my family and I do not keep them crated unless I work them. I see no difference in drive on the field and engagement with the handler but I also work at engagement with my dogs outside of just training. This method will get you where you want to go without detriment to the dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think many people raise their sport dogs like this! It limits any inadvertent mistakes, and does keep the dog engaged. 

I'm curious- what makes you think you have a genetically flawed dog? The fearfulness of vehicles is fairly easy to work on because there are always places to find plenty of exposure to vehicles while increasing/decreasing distance to the vehicles. I'd even go positive-only to start (basic turn and treat), then work up to corrections. It depends on how severe her reaction to vehicles is, however. 

Being aloof with strangers wouldn't bother me, but if she is actively going after them (barking, straining on leash, snarling etc) then that is something I believe you need to work on directly. Show her what you want rather than avoid that situation altogether. If I had a dog that hated strangers, I'd work on teaching him an automatic recall when he sees another person, and a focused, bombproof heel. And I wouldn't set that dog up to fail by expecting him to hang out in social settings, either. 

I didn't see you say she is environmentally fearful as well, but if she is, avoiding the environment won't help. I take my pups on lots and lots of long off leash hikes and while they may have other flaws, not a one has issues environmentally. 

I think engagement can be built just as well, if not better, by active work, not just limiting the dog's environment. For a master trainer, check out Ivan Balabanovs Pay Per View vids- start with the basics. You will learn a lot.

If you get a chance, could you PM me the name of the trainer? I am curious. All this to say, the technique probably has merit and the trainer is the only one who can explain the whys of it. So I'm not bashing this technique, I'm just thinking at 4 months old, pups need to be seeing the world, not locked away. 

Beautiful puppy, by the way. I love her coloring.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> So to help your dog interact with her environment take it away from her? I understand the theory I think, but doubtful it would be my approach. I think the trainer is looking to make you the centre of your pups world so she will never focus on anything else. She sounds like just a bit of a shy girl, possibly under exposed as a pup.
> 
> She is very pretty btw


Definitely underexposed! the approach is meant to build total neutrality to her environment by having it essentially become “background noise” if I understand correctly. Instead of building negative or positive value to things like people or dogs or the street none of them matter because she’s with me and it’s business as usual regardless of what’s going on. Basically building a trust of “I make sure nothing happens to you, you just gotta keep your eyes on me.” I’ve tried getting her to build positive association to the things that make her nervous by just feeding her when she notices them/letting her watch them and chill out with some hand feeding but training her around triggers and keeping her moving/focused on me seems to be working better for her. We’ll see how it goes! And thank you!


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Is there a goal you are working toward where this is a short step? Did you ask the trainer that?
> 
> I guess I'd ask that. It may be because she is so over threshold the minute you go out the door they are trying to eliminate that and build your value to her and ability to get thru to her.
> 
> I can't imagine having a puppy that never gets to just goof off and be a puppy or run and play in the grass, but you do have a problem where the puppy is afraid as soon as you go out the door, right?


we’re pretty good out the door now! It’s just busy streets that bug her. Her “goofing off” is often her choosing to do things that we don’t want her to make a habit of, so this way I control the outlets for her physical and mental energy. The goal is environmental neutrality and a good foundation in engagement and focus—basically preventing her from reacting to things that may bother her and making her own choices in regards to handling anything we might encounter. I ultimately want a dog that trusts me to advocate for her instead of choosing to deter strangers or dogs herself, and I am willing to trust this trainers methods for now to see if it helps us get there. If it doesn’t work for us I’m happy to try other approaches, but Im happy to see where this gets us for now.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> What are your plans for your dog long term? I don’t think I’m fully understanding the issues you’re having either. I wouldn’t say you’re trainer is wrong, but it’s a way of training I’d expect to see from someone looking to raise a high level working dog. Nothing wrong with it necessarily, but not usually how most dogs are raised.


I got her as the dog that’s meant to help me get my foot in the door of dog sports, mainly OB, so a good foundation regarding engagement, impulse control and a general ability to settle are important to me. I also tend to not see a point in allowing a dog to be out of control, there’s always a better alternative to an outlet for her energy than destructive or inappropriate behaviour and this way I make sure shes guided in the right direction. I also love working with my dog, training in all regards, so I’d like her to love it just the same! For sure though my top priority is a dog that I can trust in all public settings; she goes where I go and I need her both comfortable in various environments and tolerant of the presence of approaching strangers. Hopefully this gets us there, but I’m willing to try different approaches if this one doesn’t work for us in the long run.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You already know that genetically, her nerves are an issue. By isolating her so much you are essentially providing an impoverished environment and limiting her opportunities to learn and explore. It is better to take her out to as many new places and see different people and dogs, especially because she is young and needs the exposure and isn't mature enough to do anything that would upset people. With the virus thing, she doesn't need to be pet by people or touch other dogs, but she should see many new places. Expose her to environmental challenges like walking on metal stairs and elevated areas and different surfaces. Take her around places with loud noises and start at a distance and get closer to the noise as she acclimates. If her food drive is good she won't check out on you and you don't want training sessions to be too long anyway.


luckily we live in an apartment building in the city so all of those experiences are right outside our door. No worries, she’s not being isolated; she’s just getting these experiences in short bursts while working for her food and is being crated in between sessions. We’re avoiding having walks drag on to the point where I’m no fun and she decides to focus and engage with her environment instead, because that’ll often be done in a way that I consider inappropriate (barking/hard staring etc.) I don’t want her to get in that state when she’s tired of her food and of me, because then I can’t pull her out and have to turn to management instead. But thanks for your input! I appreciate that so many people care about her progress, feels like raising a puppy in a community!


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> You are going to get 1000 different opinions by asking this question. I"m sure you have talked in depth with the trainers prior to coming up with a plan. Stay consistent. To much input only confuses you and then will confuse the dog.
> 
> IMO, what they are doing is a sport foundation to teach the dog to focus on you. I don't disagree with it. Teaching her engagement and obedience will help with a weak nerved dog. If this is working for you, don't break it.


yup, regardless of the input I get here I’m sticking with what our trainer reccomends 100% while we’re working with him. I see his work, his relationship with his dog and his experience which is more than I can say for anyone commenting here (though I’m sure a good number of people on here have great results with their dogs and I could learn a lot from them!)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here is my opinion about walks in general 

When the dog is working..they are working..period. Work is play. Play is work 
When we are walking, as long as the dog is not putting me on my face, I don't care what they are doing. This is their time to experience their environment. they get to sniff and watch the world. Part of the issues with puppies is people thing socializing is handing them off to every person and letting them play with every dog. No. It's introducing them to the environment. And you can still do this in addition to what you are doing. You just set aside time to do it.

Let them climb stairs, jump up on weird surfaces, work thru issues like a car door slamming, drop a pot on the floor, open a garbage bag, when you are on a walk take them over rocks and logs and let them see garbage cans and bags on the street. let them see a cow (that's always an interesting reaction) All of those things are "socializing". Your job is to help them thru it.






Socializing Your Puppy: how it should look | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee


The Biggest Mistake Of All: PUPPY SOCIALIZATION. Dogs need to be socialized. That means that dogs need to SEE the world, and handle it with social grace. We need to teach them the skills and habits necessary for participating within our society. Unfortunately socialization got misunderstood as...




naughtydogge.com


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> You are very limited in what you can do with her outside your home. Do you have a yard? Are there places you can take her for down time when she isn’t working without violating your local plan?. How much time a day does the trainer want her crated?
> 
> I raised mine using the tether plan as a young puppy and had I known the outcome, I would have done less of that and much more off leash from 8 weeks.
> 
> I agree with Jax. You have started using a method that was recommended by a trainer you like. Stick with it. I switched trainers several times and didn’t find one I liked until 7 months. By then some behaviors were set. He was able to turn a lot of it around, but I would have Ben much better off had I found him earlier and stuck with one plan.


unfortunately no yard! Which is a bummer, but probably wouldn’t change our course of action. If she wants to play and goof off she has a play session with me, if she wants to just chill for a bit she can settle in her crate. If she wants to run totally wild and bite and destroy stuff well.. that doesn’t really fly. And she’s crated whenever she isn’t working and she’s working as often as she can! Overall we don’t hit a time that’s over what she’s spend in her crate if I were going to work like normal. And yeah, I’m sure I’ll learn a lot in the future that’ll make me wish I’d done things differently now, but seeing as I don’t know what those things are yet (and since she’s my first real dog haha) all I can do is my best  trying to keep my head up!


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Muskeg said:


> I think many people raise their sport dogs like this! It limits any inadvertent mistakes, and does keep the dog engaged.
> 
> I'm curious- what makes you think you have a genetically flawed dog? The fearfulness of vehicles is fairly easy to work on because there are always places to find plenty of exposure to vehicles while increasing/decreasing distance to the vehicles. I'd even go positive-only to start (basic turn and treat), then work up to corrections. It depends on how severe her reaction to vehicles is, however.
> 
> ...


I guess I put a lot of emphasis on finding a puppy with genetics that work in your favour, and since I jumped the gun a bit when actually getting her and didn’t do as much research into her pedigree as I should have Im constantly worried that the struggles were having are a result of my poor decision making! She might have a rock solid temperament when she grows up for all I know, I just tend to spiral a bit with “what if”s. 
And yup, we’re definitely working on working her through her environmental worries! We have a multitude of experiences at our doorstep that she’s nervous about so we’re building on her confidence around the places that bug her in these short sessions. Definitely not avoiding the scary things or isolating her, we live by a trail and she passes plenty of people/dogs and we change up our settings frequently to ensure a good balance of experiences. She’s still learning, just in shorter but frequent bursts so she doesn’t zone out and I lose my ability to redirect her if something pushes her into a state. It’s a bit too early to tell how she’s progressing overall due to this approach, but I’m sticking with this till a better alternative is available or necessary! And sure thing, I’ll PM you!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think it's important to teach them to settle outside of their crate. When you are training or trialing, you may have to wait your turn and there will be a time when she is just loose with you in the house because the engagement is there.

What have you taught her for obedience yet? I assume you are starting to heel. one of the corner stones of my training for obedience and protection is the platform. Have you learned any of that? And the platform can transfer to a "place" where she goes and stays like a bed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't think I'd go right to deprivation like that, but I think maybe your concerns and fears are a reason for that direction. If your dogs obedient it's not misbehaving and her attention to you tends to give you more confidence, so using its nothing I think is terrible.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

There are safe ways to get dogs out right now. I don’t recommend it, it’s up to you to decide what your comfort level is, but I had to go to a home improvement store today for a pick up and I saw a family with a young puppy going inside, I also saw several people walking dogs down the street and a few driving them around in cars.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Has anyone sent you here yet? This could help.








rethinking "popular" early socialization


take note of the word "popular" How many dogs have been damaged by early socialization . If the forum is a fair , random, sampling , I would say quite a few. so let that be the opening salvo to open the discussion .




www.germanshepherds.com


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Maybe I missed this part but when does your puppy get to run? It is essential to proper growth and development. A lack of regular full range motion can have serious negative consequences. 

I also might be reading this wrong, and I understand that you have an eye for sport but may have chosen the wrong puppy, but do you really understand what being everything to your dog really means off of a training field? Are you prepared for that responsibility and commitment for the next 12 years? Thats a LOT of work.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

nsfvlada said:


> I got her as the dog that’s meant to help me get my foot in the door of dog sports, mainly OB, so a good foundation regarding engagement, impulse control and a general ability to settle are important to me. I also tend to not see a point in allowing a dog to be out of control, there’s always a better alternative to an outlet for her energy than destructive or inappropriate behaviour and this way I make sure shes guided in the right direction. I also love working with my dog, training in all regards, so I’d like her to love it just the same! For sure though my top priority is a dog that I can trust in all public settings; she goes where I go and I need her both comfortable in various environments and tolerant of the presence of approaching strangers. Hopefully this gets us there, but I’m willing to try different approaches if this one doesn’t work for us in the long run.


While I don't think its necessary,nor is it the way I train with my dogs, it sounds like a fine plan to follow. I have had a dog who was shy around moving cars, but as he walked by and dealt with them everyday, it quickly went away. As for your dog not being super outgoing and friendly, I don't think its an issue. Now if she starts going after people for no reason, or showing fear, I would say you need to worry. Focus on a training/competition field is radically different than everyday life, and much easier if you ask me. I wouldn't worry right now.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Maybe I missed this part but when does your puppy get to run? It is essential to proper growth and development. A lack of regular full range motion can have serious negative consequences.
> 
> I also might be reading this wrong, and I understand that you have an eye for sport but may have chosen the wrong puppy, but do you really understand what being everything to your dog really means off of a training field? Are you prepared for that responsibility and commitment for the next 12 years? Thats a LOT of work.


we’re incorporating some 2 ball fetch into her routine, but Im finding the line between “developmentally necessary running” and “too much strain on developing joints” a bit unclear so if you have any advice regarding that I’d love to hear it! Hopefully we’re not overdoing it. And I understand your concern regarding me being everything to my dog  However my dog is kinda everything to ME, this may sound a tad extreme but Im psychiatrically disabled and have very little interests outside of activities related to dogs (special interests, baby!) as well as very little stamina when it comes to socializing. I love people, my ability to interact with folks is very limited though so dogs are kind of a fulfillment hack for me. I wanted a sport dog because I wanna be able to keep busy with a variety of rewarding activities that I could learn about and progress in, not just for her but for me! Since the things I rely on as “get out of bed” motivators are things that my dog needs to be present for, physically and mentally, me being everything to her seems like a necessary piece of the puzzle.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> There are safe ways to get dogs out right now. I don’t recommend it, it’s up to you to decide what your comfort level is, but I had to go to a home improvement store today for a pick up and I saw a family with a young puppy going inside, I also saw several people walking dogs down the street and a few driving them around in cars.


yup, I’m making sure she’s getting exposure to public transit, appropriate stores (quick lcbo runs) and she comes to work with me (crated there.) We walk a variety of routes and one of our main ones is a popular path that has a ton of running/biking/dog walking folks, as well as strollers and just about any other common weird thing you can think of! We just try to maintain engagement while we’re out and don’t stay past the point where she’s checking out from me and doing her own thing instead/I can’t bring her into focus if she fixates on something. Hence the short sessions! Thankfully there’s a lot around here that’s within distance where we can still manage that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

nsfvlada said:


> we’re incorporating some 2 ball fetch into her routine, but Im finding the line between “developmentally necessary running” and “too much strain on developing joints” a bit unclear so if you have any advice regarding that I’d love to hear it! Hopefully we’re not overdoing it. And I understand your concern regarding me being everything to my dog  However my dog is kinda everything to ME, this may sound a tad extreme but Im psychiatrically disabled and have very little interests outside of activities related to dogs (special interests, baby!) as well as very little stamina when it comes to socializing. I love people, my ability to interact with folks is very limited though so dogs are kind of a fulfillment hack for me. I wanted a sport dog because I wanna be able to keep busy with a variety of rewarding activities that I could learn about and progress in, not just for her but for me! Since the things I rely on as “get out of bed” motivators are things that my dog needs to be present for, physically and mentally, me being everything to her seems like a necessary piece of the puzzle.


Studies have found that joint health development is optimal when done on natural surfaces with pups / young dogs setting the intensity, duration and distance. Manmade surfaces, unnatural movements and forced exercise should be discouraged. 

Not my business, and I may be interpreting your comment wrong, but if you are using a dog as an avenue of personal socialization vs in place of, being everything to your dog can be a hindrance and a distraction if that is your goal.


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## Devra (Jan 31, 2020)

Since your pup came with issues, I would agree with some other people that using a crate as "punishment" does not make much sense to me. You probably don't know what training you baby got before and I suggest that you work with her at home to get her comfortable and to really get the bond between you solid. A baby needs exercise and a game of ball is always good. Keep any activity short and you can always come back to playing ball. My suggestion is to work with her on the basics- come, down, sit and stay. Reward her every time she does what you ask and do keep these training sessions short because her attention span will not be too long. I would say to put the trainer on hold for now and work on developing the bond that will allow both of you to work on more advanced skills as she gets older.


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## Chris4609 (Dec 15, 2019)

nsfvlada said:


> Hiya! I’ve started working with a trainer (online) in order to help prevent some general behavioural issues that I know GSDs are prone to and to help assist with some things that little Dani was already starting to have trouble with. She’s 4 months old and when we got her a month ago she was already fearful of large passing vehicles as well as very aloof/intolerant of meeting strangers, so I wanted to stack at least a few cards in my favour early on. I went with a small facility that is well-respected within the circle of trainers and working/spordog owners I follow on social media. They train in PP and do a lot of work with behaviour modification, I followed their media presence and liked what I saw in terms of results and philosophy so I gave them a try.
> I just wanted to get some opinions on what they’ve advised for me to do so far! I’m trusting them and seeing where their approach gets us, but I’m curious about what others might think of their methods because they might be seen as kinda intense by some, especially folks in pet dog circles.
> Basically, Dani is to either be actively engaged with me (working for her food or engaging in structured play) or crated. The sessions out of her crate are to be kept short so that she doesn’t start checking out of our session and trying to engage with her environment/losing value in my presence and the food. If I let her out of her crate and she won’t work for her food, she goes back in for a bit and we try again. This basically means no long walks, no “hanging out” with us and lots of time settling in her crate.
> My boyfriend is having some trouble with “taking away her freedom” since he views dogs more as furry children than anything, but ultimately I’m the “dog-savvy” one and he trusts my judgement when it comes to all care— he’s in charge of giving the best belly rubs, lol. She didnt have much “freedom” in the first place as we kept her on leash at all times even prior to the training and gave her plenty of crate breaks. Personally I’d rather help guide her into making good choices rather than give her the freedom to make bad ones. I’m a bit worried about general lack of enrichment and exercise but I might be assuming she needs a lot more than she does at this stage. I’d also love to have a dog that can be trusted with a bit of freedom, ngl! All in good time I guess.
> ...


First, she’s a sharp looking pup. In my moderately humble opinion. I have noticed professional dog trainers are now like fad diets. You look around long enough and you can find one that promise you’ll loose weight eating ice cream and cake.


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## Tee (Dec 5, 2019)

nsfvlada said:


> Hiya! I’ve started working with a trainer (online) in order to help prevent some general behavioural issues that I know GSDs are prone to and to help assist with some things that little Dani was already starting to have trouble with. She’s 4 months old and when we got her a month ago she was already fearful of large passing vehicles as well as very aloof/intolerant of meeting strangers, so I wanted to stack at least a few cards in my favour early on. I went with a small facility that is well-respected within the circle of trainers and working/spordog owners I follow on social media. They train in PP and do a lot of work with behaviour modification, I followed their media presence and liked what I saw in terms of results and philosophy so I gave them a try.
> I just wanted to get some opinions on what they’ve advised for me to do so far! I’m trusting them and seeing where their approach gets us, but I’m curious about what others might think of their methods because they might be seen as kinda intense by some, especially folks in pet dog circles.
> Basically, Dani is to either be actively engaged with me (working for her food or engaging in structured play) or crated. The sessions out of her crate are to be kept short so that she doesn’t start checking out of our session and trying to engage with her environment/losing value in my presence and the food. If I let her out of her crate and she won’t work for her food, she goes back in for a bit and we try again. This basically means no long walks, no “hanging out” with us and lots of time settling in her crate.
> My boyfriend is having some trouble with “taking away her freedom” since he views dogs more as furry children than anything, but ultimately I’m the “dog-savvy” one and he trusts my judgement when it comes to all care— he’s in charge of giving the best belly rubs, lol. She didnt have much “freedom” in the first place as we kept her on leash at all times even prior to the training and gave her plenty of crate breaks. Personally I’d rather help guide her into making good choices rather than give her the freedom to make bad ones. I’m a bit worried about general lack of enrichment and exercise but I might be assuming she needs a lot more than she does at this stage. I’d also love to have a dog that can be trusted with a bit of freedom, ngl! All in good time I guess.
> ...


I am not really a fan of crate training...we just rescued a Shepard who had been trained just as you are explaining...when he first came to us he was so frightened of everything...just like you described....loud trucks...other people...and he was so thin and he was not strong at all! We took him to be groomed and the groomer said when he was wet he could not stand on his own and this was due to being kept in the crate...
we do not own a crate....instead I started taking him on long walks...when we would see people on trails I would pet him and say people..they are people...its ok its ok...at first I literally had to go into the woods when people passed but now he walks right by them no problem...my bf has a truck and at first he would not go outside if the truck was parked in the driveway...I kept telling him it is ok..it is a truck...you are ok....and now he walks right by it...even if it is running...and it is a diesel so LOUD....so I think love and positivity is the key....we just took Truman to the groomer yesterday and lo and behold he was MUCH stronger and could stand when wet!!! I just feel so sad for animals kept in crates...I would never want anyone to keep me in a crate.


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## Tee (Dec 5, 2019)

nsfvlada said:


> Hiya! I’ve started working with a trainer (online) in order to help prevent some general behavioural issues that I know GSDs are prone to and to help assist with some things that little Dani was already starting to have trouble with. She’s 4 months old and when we got her a month ago she was already fearful of large passing vehicles as well as very aloof/intolerant of meeting strangers, so I wanted to stack at least a few cards in my favour early on. I went with a small facility that is well-respected within the circle of trainers and working/spordog owners I follow on social media. They train in PP and do a lot of work with behaviour modification, I followed their media presence and liked what I saw in terms of results and philosophy so I gave them a try.
> I just wanted to get some opinions on what they’ve advised for me to do so far! I’m trusting them and seeing where their approach gets us, but I’m curious about what others might think of their methods because they might be seen as kinda intense by some, especially folks in pet dog circles.
> Basically, Dani is to either be actively engaged with me (working for her food or engaging in structured play) or crated. The sessions out of her crate are to be kept short so that she doesn’t start checking out of our session and trying to engage with her environment/losing value in my presence and the food. If I let her out of her crate and she won’t work for her food, she goes back in for a bit and we try again. This basically means no long walks, no “hanging out” with us and lots of time settling in her crate.
> My boyfriend is having some trouble with “taking away her freedom” since he views dogs more as furry children than anything, but ultimately I’m the “dog-savvy” one and he trusts my judgement when it comes to all care— he’s in charge of giving the best belly rubs, lol. She didnt have much “freedom” in the first place as we kept her on leash at all times even prior to the training and gave her plenty of crate breaks. Personally I’d rather help guide her into making good choices rather than give her the freedom to make bad ones. I’m a bit worried about general lack of enrichment and exercise but I might be assuming she needs a lot more than she does at this stage. I’d also love to have a dog that can be trusted with a bit of freedom, ngl! All in good time I guess.
> ...


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## mrsawiseman (Apr 13, 2020)

nsfvlada said:


> Hiya! I’ve started working with a trainer (online) in order to help prevent some general behavioural issues that I know GSDs are prone to and to help assist with some things that little Dani was already starting to have trouble with. She’s 4 months old and when we got her a month ago she was already fearful of large passing vehicles as well as very aloof/intolerant of meeting strangers, so I wanted to stack at least a few cards in my favour early on. I went with a small facility that is well-respected within the circle of trainers and working/spordog owners I follow on social media. They train in PP and do a lot of work with behaviour modification, I followed their media presence and liked what I saw in terms of results and philosophy so I gave them a try.
> I just wanted to get some opinions on what they’ve advised for me to do so far! I’m trusting them and seeing where their approach gets us, but I’m curious about what others might think of their methods because they might be seen as kinda intense by some, especially folks in pet dog circles.
> Basically, Dani is to either be actively engaged with me (working for her food or engaging in structured play) or crated. The sessions out of her crate are to be kept short so that she doesn’t start checking out of our session and trying to engage with her environment/losing value in my presence and the food. If I let her out of her crate and she won’t work for her food, she goes back in for a bit and we try again. This basically means no long walks, no “hanging out” with us and lots of time settling in her crate.
> My boyfriend is having some trouble with “taking away her freedom” since he views dogs more as furry children than anything, but ultimately I’m the “dog-savvy” one and he trusts my judgement when it comes to all care— he’s in charge of giving the best belly rubs, lol. She didnt have much “freedom” in the first place as we kept her on leash at all times even prior to the training and gave her plenty of crate breaks. Personally I’d rather help guide her into making good choices rather than give her the freedom to make bad ones. I’m a bit worried about general lack of enrichment and exercise but I might be assuming she needs a lot more than she does at this stage. I’d also love to have a dog that can be trusted with a bit of freedom, ngl! All in good time I guess.
> ...


The more I crate my shepherds, the less likely they are to behave... my female shepherd especially! They need exercise, discipline and affection... in that order. Also, you need to socialize her. Take her EVERYWHERE... but you’re the human she’s the dog and you MUST own everything and she needs to know you’re the pack leader.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Tee said:


> I am not really a fan of crate training...we just rescued a Shepard who had been trained just as you are explaining...when he first came to us he was so frightened of everything...just like you described....loud trucks...other people...and he was so thin and he was not strong at all! We took him to be groomed and the groomer said when he was wet he could not stand on his own and this was due to being kept in the crate...
> we do not own a crate....instead I started taking him on long walks...when we would see people on trails I would pet him and say people..they are people...its ok its ok...at first I literally had to go into the woods when people passed but now he walks right by them no problem...my bf has a truck and at first he would not go outside if the truck was parked in the driveway...I kept telling him it is ok..it is a truck...you are ok....and now he walks right by it...even if it is running...and it is a diesel so LOUD....so I think love and positivity is the key....we just took Truman to the groomer yesterday and lo and behold he was MUCH stronger and could stand when wet!!! I just feel so sad for animals kept in crates...I would never want anyone to keep me in a crate.


That is not crate training . It's abuse. All my dogs are crate trained, and Shadow walks several miles with me everyday.
Please do not confuse legitimate tools and training with something someone did wrong.
Also if your dog is ever injured or I'll he will likely need to be crated so I would make sure you build a positive association with it if I were you.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Studies have found that joint health development is optimal when done on natural surfaces with pups / young dogs setting the intensity, duration and distance. Manmade surfaces, unnatural movements and forced exercise should be discouraged.
> 
> Not my business, and I may be interpreting your comment wrong, but if you are using a dog as an avenue of personal socialization vs in place of, being everything to your dog can be a hindrance and a distraction if that is your goal.


Ah yeah sorry, may not have been clear! Definitely meant in place of. I’ll keep that in mind though, I’m sure we’ll find our flow as we gain experience. And thanks for the info!


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

mrsawiseman said:


> The more I crate my shepherds, the less likely they are to behave... my female shepherd especially! They need exercise, discipline and affection... in that order. Also, you need to socialize her. Take her EVERYWHERE... but you’re the human she’s the dog and you MUST own everything and she needs to know you’re the pack leader.


interesting that that’s your experience because I’m finding the opposite to be true! Lack of structure definitely seems to impact my girl’s ability to self-regulate and seems to correlate with inappropriate behaviour. We had 2 “lazy” days after a while of satisfying results where I confess I slipped into old habits with her (long casual walks without much structure in place of multiple productive sessions with crate decompression in between, me being too distracted to work with her as much as usual and letting her check out/interact too much with her environment instead.) not a HUGE difference, we still worked on her regular obedience and she was still leashed or crated at all times but my own commitment to what I described in my original post definitely slipped up. With this her behaviour definitely declined; she once again began barking/whining while crated and lost duration in her obedience/overall significantly lost focus in our training sessions. She even reacted to a dog on leash. So I guess every dog is different! I’m glad you found something that works for your pups  thanks for the advice.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> That is not crate training . It's abuse. All my dogs are crate trained, and Shadow walks several miles with me everyday.
> Please do not confuse legitimate tools and training with something someone did wrong.
> Also if your dog is ever injured or I'll he will likely need to be crated so I would make sure you build a positive association with it if I were you.


not to butt in but I just wanted to say thanks for pointing this out! I tend to be pretty lax when it comes to people’s varying approaches to training as long as they leave mine alone but I strongly believe advocating that crating is abusive indirectly contributes to how many dogs get rehomed or surrendered. A crate is such valuable tool in a dog owners life imo, the impact an appropriately used crate has on a dog’s overall behaviour and ability to appropriately coexist with its humans is incredible in my experience. Throwing the tool under abuse leaves a lot of owners without many options when it comes to managing their dogs correctly and well, I’d probably also get fed up if I had my pup running loose doing whatever she wants 24/7 before we built our relationship and boundaries up enough for her to be trusted with some freedom. Not to mention how unsafe leaving loose dogs unsupervised is. Educating people on the correct use of crates is infinitely more beneficial to dogs than advocating for them not being used at all.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Devra said:


> Since your pup came with issues, I would agree with some other people that using a crate as "punishment" does not make much sense to me. You probably don't know what training you baby got before and I suggest that you work with her at home to get her comfortable and to really get the bond between you solid. A baby needs exercise and a game of ball is always good. Keep any activity short and you can always come back to playing ball. My suggestion is to work with her on the basics- come, down, sit and stay. Reward her every time she does what you ask and do keep these training sessions short because her attention span will not be too long. I would say to put the trainer on hold for now and work on developing the bond that will allow both of you to work on more advanced skills as she gets older.


I’ll be honest, I’m pretty confused by your reply! I might be missing something but i believe I definitely mentioned training her using a reward-based method (working for food) as well as keeping the sessions short due to her attention span. We’re training in basic obedience at the moment which yeah, does include the behaviours you mentioned  (though we opt out of a stay command and instead build duration in her behaviours prior to a release cue. I find “stay” redundant as the expectation is that if i tell you to sit or down you are to hold it until I release you from the position with a terminal marker.) I also didn’t mention anything about using her crate as punishment, on the contrary ive prioritized a positive association with her crate and she’s never been forced inside— it’s a place she is meant to find comfortable so using it as punishment wouldnt make any sense. she runs in enthusiastically, often without being cued (though we do have a verbal cue) because that’s her routine and I’ve made sure to pair any high value goodies she gets with crate time. No need to punish her right now anyway because that requires her knowingly ignoring or disobeying something that’s been solidified; she’s 4 months old and doesn’t “know” enough to do anything “wrong.” if she does something “wrong” it’s me who needs to reassess my management or criteria, not her that needs to be punished. Sorry if I should have been more clear! thanks for the feedback.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

nsfvlada said:


> _not sure how to delete discussion but this thread didn’t turn out to be very productive, sorry!_


You shouldn't have deleted that post. If I remember right you explained very clearly the purpose and reason for using the crate in a specific way as a training aid. I thought you had good understanding of what the goal was and that it was a temporary use of a tool. Its not something that a lot of people would have come across anymore, but its a pretty simple and effective method to create what you're looking for.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Why would you delete your post? I understood exactly what you were saying and what the goal was. As I stated it wouldn't be my choice, but you seemed happy with method and results so that's really all that matters.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm sad you deleted it as well. it was a good question regarding the foundation for a sport puppy. Unfortunately, there aren't many sport people on the board that understood the process and the end game but it could have been valuable to others searching.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I'm sad you deleted it as well. it was a good question regarding the foundation for a sport puppy. Unfortunately, there aren't many sport people on the board that understood the process and the end game but it could have been valuable to others searching.


Ah sorry, Im a total forum noob and didn’t even think of that! Thanks for pointing that out. Now I’m regretting it big time. I got a tad overwhelmed by the amount of responses but I’ll see if there’s a way for me to just ignore replies next time when I reach that point instead of nuking the topic.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> You shouldn't have deleted that post. If I remember right you explained very clearly the purpose and reason for using the crate in a specific way as a training aid. I thought you had good understanding of what the goal was and that it was a temporary use of a tool. Its not something that a lot of people would have come across anymore, but its a pretty simple and effective method to create what you're looking for.


yeah I should have been mindful of other people maybe finding the discussion helpful! Kinda forgot that’s the whole point of this forum! Sorry guys I’ll remember that for next time.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

@nsfvlada check the edit button, if it shows the history, you may be able to restore your original post (if that’s what you want), if not, i can help.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

I actually use this method in between training sessions. She gets her free time as well but if I know I’m going to train again, my dogs goes from training, back to the kennel, and then come back up. I get more productivity and maintain a higher drive state that way. 

I always put my dog up for at least 30 mins after a training session. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Fodder said:


> @nsfvlada check the edit button, if it shows the history, you may be able to restore your original post (if that’s what you want), if not, i can help.


yeah it doesn’t look like there’s a history option! No worries if I can’t restore it but I’d like to if there’s a trick to it


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nscullin said:


> I actually use this method in between training sessions. She gets her free time as well but if I know I’m going to train again, my dogs goes from training, back to the kennel, and then come back up. I get more productivity and maintain a higher drive state that way.
> 
> I always put my dog up for at least 30 mins after a training session.
> 
> ...



Pretty much. It's rare I pull my dog off the couch to go train. I can with Seger because he's fully trained and understands the game. And his genetic temperament is very handler focused. My young girl is more independent. She can self satisfy playing with balls or Seger and then not want to train. So she's crated prior to training for a period of time. As she gets older and understands there is value to working with me, I'm not as strict about it. What the OP is doing is not new and it does work well to help develop the relationship needed between an handler and a sport dog.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Pretty much. It's rare I pull my dog off the couch to go train. I can with Seger because he's fully trained and understands the game. And his genetic temperament is very handler focused. My young girl is more independent. She can self satisfy playing with balls or Seger and then not want to train. So she's crated prior to training for a period of time. As she gets older and understands there is value to working with me, I'm not as strict about it. What the OP is doing is not new and it does work well to help develop the relationship needed between an handler and a sport dog.


My typical daily routine

Home from work 3:30;prep food/treats

Train 4-4:15ish. Last 5ish mins usually just a game of 2 ball with some obedience and barking thrown in. 

Crate 4:15-5ish while I walk the other dog

Train 5:15-5:25ish; then another 5-10min game of tug working the out a little. 

Crate 535-605ish. Then feed dinner while working with the aisd. When dinners done, both dogs are out together and they get to play and do as they please. 

Some days the first training session is substituted with a track. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Don't worry- I don't think anyone is judging you or thinking that crating, for the reason and method you are doing it, is wrong or abusive. As I said, lots of top sports trainers use confinement to build drive and focus, possibly most high-end trainers! 

To some degree, I did, too, when my girl was a pup to about 2 she came to work in the crate, got a nice long lunch break to play, and train, and then was back into the crate until I was off work. She is perfectly fine and very engaged! She slept happily in the crate and was often sprawled on her back when I went out to the car at lunch, so obviously she wasn't stressed at all! 

I don't confine in the house, but my house is puppy-proof to a degree many houses aren't. And I do use ex-pens for pups. 

I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing. The only thing I'd do differently, or possibly disagree with, is that I like to give pups time to just be dogs and wander, explore off leash in safe areas. But, perhaps that goes against the goal of a strictly sport puppy- or isn't a good idea if the pup isn't naturally engaged.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think it does when the idea of work is play and play is work is properly employed. Your dog has to experience their surroundings. There are gunshots in obedience routines. Weird things happen at trials. Your dog needs to learn to ignore things as well as be focused on you.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I don't think it does when the idea of work is play and play is work is properly employed. Your dog has to experience their surroundings. There are gunshots in obedience routines. Weird things happen at trials. Your dog needs to learn to ignore things as well as be focused on you.


Completely agree! Our routine seems to be helping with that. I try to anticipate when she’s likely to be more engaged during a session (ones where she’s likely to be hungrier or more amped) and take her to more distracting/scary areas to train when that’s the case. It was a big win for us when she was luring confidently and was nicely engaged with me around big garbage trucks (old trigger) lifting and flipping the big metal containers behind our building on garbage day. We started off at a distance but were able to get super close without much deterioration in her focus! Considering that it was so noisy that I had to yell to hear myself, and that this is a dog that used to bolt and hide inside our apartment when a bus drove by in front of our building I was super proud of her. Definitely gonna have to work our way up to gunshots though  she’s still a baby, we’re taking it one day at a time!


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Muskeg said:


> Don't worry- I don't think anyone is judging you or thinking that crating, for the reason and method you are doing it, is wrong or abusive. As I said, lots of top sports trainers use confinement to build drive and focus, possibly most high-end trainers!
> 
> To some degree, I did, too, when my girl was a pup to about 2 she came to work in the crate, got a nice long lunch break to play, and train, and then was back into the crate until I was off work. She is perfectly fine and very engaged! She slept happily in the crate and was often sprawled on her back when I went out to the car at lunch, so obviously she wasn't stressed at all!
> 
> ...


thanks! It’s not really the idea of judgement that’s bothering me haha, it’s the internet and some people think the very idea of training dogs for sport or work is abusive so like... not about to take criticism from someone I wouldn’t ask for advice from lol. It was mostly the flood of messages, my brain kinda went aaaaah stop! But it’s all good.

This girl is independent like crazy! So I’m having to work pretty hard on building up value with her. She’s definitely a dog who don’t need no (wo)man and will self-satisfy with just about everything in her environment. I also don’t really agree in off-leash time outside for dogs prior to them having a reliable recall, and any “safe” place will likely have strange off leash dogs and owners with absolutely no control over them (ugh.) we’ll use our long line at times so I can still manage her, I don’t want to give her an opportunity to learn that a recall cue can be ignored without consequence because that just sets her up for more corrections in the future.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I did not read all the response, but this is a method I would recommend and do often with great success. Dogs are constantly learning. Through every interaction whether formal training or not. So by controlling her interactions, you are controlling how she gets exposed to things. It doesn't mean you never take her out the crate. It means that when you take her out, she learns to engage with you and ignore the "scary" outside world. This also helps build her confidence through you. The crate is a safe space where the dog can decompress. Dogs handle stress differently than humans. With dogs stress compounds and they have a harder time releasing it than we do. Look at some dog sports. There is a reason the exercises are set up in the order they are. When you see a dog get ran on a trial field, it's not usually that scenario or decoy that got to them. It's the previous scenario, then the slightest amount of stress is enough to make the dog run. So again by crating and controlling her interactions with the outside world, you are making good experiences and showing her the appropriate way to go through life instead of just expecting her to get it.


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