# Czech line breeding question :)



## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Hi, in my previous thread I was told that my pup that I will be getting in 6 weeks might develop an active social aggression (sharp). My question is, based on the pedigree, how can you tell if a dog will be aggressive or not? 
Mother:
Millview's Rhea Mila of ACM - German Shepherd Dog


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Forgot to mention, which dog in the pedigree is the main culprit for dominance issues?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Though your dog is linebred on Cordan, who did produce very good active aggression, the pedigree is balanced through the sire side with tremendous nerve through Bax, Orna, Cheers, etc. The pedigree is not as important as making sure you get a good balanced puppy of which there will be some in the litter and you should make sure the breeder knows you want a balanced pup.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

Who is the sire of the litter?


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Would love the other half of the story . Sire's pedigree?


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

Nevermind, I found it in your other thread... Is this correct?

Mating test - Millview's Rhea Mila x Dagger de Bellator


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

As far as being nervy goes,one should look to the parents. The main problem I see is that it appears that neither parent is titled nor trained. Breeding partners should be thoroughly trained in order to properly evaluate drive and temperament. 
Have both parents had hip evals?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

While the parents can be a good indication of what to expect - the pedigree is VERY important and a "blueprint" of what characteristics are possible in the litter, and where the parents got their character.

Sorry - I have seen wonderful parents throw absolute nerve bags...I was looking at pups for a friend of a friend and know both parents...but a portion of the litter had poor nerves....the same very nice, very well bred solid female had had a litter to a well known high profile German male - littermate to a BSP winner - and again, nervy pups. Came from 2 sources in the pedigree for sure....

When 3 Czech breeders/trainers tell me DO NOT LINEBREED on so and so....men who personally saw the dog and his offspring, I take heed, and find something else.

Lee


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Yes, I noticed that the parents aren't titled either. However the breeder does prove his dogs are capable of working through the dam and the dam's mother. As far as the Sire goes, I also know that he comes from a breeder that works their dogs too.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> While the parents can be a good indication of what to expect - the pedigree is VERY important and a "blueprint" of what characteristics are possible in the litter, and where the parents got their character.
> 
> Sorry - I have seen wonderful parents throw absolute nerve bags...I was looking at pups for a friend of a friend and know both parents...but a portion of the litter had poor nerves....the same very nice, very well bred solid female had had a litter to a well known high profile German male - littermate to a BSP winner - and again, nervy pups. Came from 2 sources in the pedigree for sure....
> 
> ...


I am not sure if you are referring to the same litter but I've seen it too. Very nice pedigree but half the litter didn't turn out as it should have been. I know three dogs out of that litter personally and all three of them had issues. One of them is actively worked. He's still a very nice working dog. He underwent a LOT of training and is stable as far as I'm concerned. The owner knows his quirks and she does not put him through certain situations that could set him off. If you'd saw him now, you wouldn't know. However, put through certain situations, it'll show. 


As for Czech dogs. I just stay away from them. I leave them to people that know their lines and know how to use them. 

I stick to my west german working lines.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

If the dog cannot be put in certain situations the dog is not stable. Mrs.K czech dogs are no more nervy than other lines. I see nervy dogs in all pedigrees including west German working and high lines.And no kev,only by thoroughly putting both parents through the pressure of training do we know their temperament and drive


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladylaw203 said:


> If the dog cannot be put in certain situations the dog is not stable. Mrs.K czech dogs are no more nervy than other lines. I see nervy dogs in all pedigrees including west German working and high lines.And no kev,only by thoroughly putting both parents through the pressure of training do we know their temperament and drive


wrong wording.... if you'd see him, you wouldn't know whats going on unless he's put through certain situations. If he was in different hands, he'd be one of those cases popping up on the forum "He's such a sweet dog but attacking out of the blue, help me, I don't want to put him down." Funny thing is that he can take quite some pressure. It's the social part that he's got issues with.

Oh, I know. I just have my preferences and stick to what I know. I know one Czech dog that is absolutely amazing. He's owned by a member on this Forum. I've seen him work a couple of times and from the beginning I told her that she's got an exceptional dog. 

But I'll just stick with what I know.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> I am not sure if you are referring to the same litter but I've seen it too. Very nice pedigree but half the litter didn't turn out as it should have been. I know three dogs out of that litter personally and all three of them had issues. One of them is actively worked. He's still a very nice working dog. He underwent a LOT of training and is stable as far as I'm concerned. The owner knows his quirks and she does not put him through certain situations that could set him off. If you'd saw him now, you wouldn't know. However, put through certain situations, it'll show.
> 
> 
> As for Czech dogs. I just stay away from them. I leave them to people that know their lines and know how to use them.
> ...


I highly doubt it is same litter - but your observations show that it is not an isolated incident!!!! I do look at the individuals - if they are of the character/drive/traits I want, and that is after studying the pedigree and it shows no big alarm signs, then I go to the next step - breeding or buying the pup for another person. 

In the litter I was referencing, I was offered a specific pup "A"....I did not want that pup....I was not offered "B", as the breeder was so much more impressed with the over the top drive (hanging onto a pant leg and toy possessiveness) of "A", but after a 4 hour drive, I was going to see both!!! The sire's owner liked "B" better and had told me so previous to my trip. So I spent some time watching her, interacting and "testing" her....I took her much to the chagrin of the breeder who thought "A" was just the best thing since sliced bread. "B" is awesome, shows all the positives of her pedigree, and while accompanying her owner on a serious search for a lost 4 year old, actually found the child while on a potty break....with a two teams of SAR people searching in another direction....luck? in the right place? whichever, she had what we wanted and proved it....the "A" pup was washed out of training due to the issues I saw, and placed in a home where she would not be stressed beyond her comfort zone. Could she have been trained and titled??? Yes! On a club field with careful training - should she have been titled - because if titled, she WOULD have been bred!!! NO - therein lies the flaw in the system! Training would hide the genetic problems and as a titled female, she would have been considered breedable by the breeder!

As far as Czech dogs....I have had some good mentoring and follow the advice given....

Lee


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I agree with flaws in the titling. I have seen it for twenty five years importing.HOWEVER it is far better than nothing with regard to breeding. One still has to look at the dog itself but there are folks out there breeding dogs with no evals whatsoever and that is not the way to preserve the traits that many of us need for work. Many of us title our retrievers too.same reasons.to preserve the working drives and temperament


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

I'm of the opinion that, for example, a dog that gets a SchH1 at a club-level trial should not really be considered for breeding. I've seen plenty of dogs *squeak* by and get their SchH1 that will probably never make it to SchH2 and definitely not SchH3. Those are the dogs you definitely want to wash out of the breeding genepool. But take a dog to SchH3 multiple times, over several years under a wide variety of conditions and judges... then you have a more reliable evaluation of a dog's temperament and character. Take it further and start competing at the regional or National level where the pressure is greater and the scrutiny of the dog's temperament FAR higher than at the club level and you start to get a good picture of that particular dog. There are things that training can cover up, yes, but take it to the higher levels and the judges look more closely.

Just my opinion of course...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I know a little bit about Czech dogs myself, and they are just like anything else in breeding....its about the individual mating. One of the best producing Czech females I know for producing exceptional nerve and working ability is Zendy Aritar Bastet. She is linebred 2-4 on Tom z Pohraninci straze....know of pups from 3 different litters and two different sires....now if she is 2-4 on Tom that makes her linebred on Cordon???? The breeder in this case owned Tom's mother,(Axa) and bred her to Cordon to produce Tom....I think he knows a little bit about Cordon and of course Tom. Cordon and Tom can be linebred on, but you have to have the right compliments to go with them as in any other breeding. I also am quite familar with the other Czech dogs in this pedigree as I have owned dogs out of their lines also. Of course any breeding is a crapshoot to a degree, but it always comes down to compatibility of two parents and combination/recombination that takes place.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

One still has to look at the dog. Sport is sport.an arbitrary routine. That is why sport titled dogs must be thoroughly evaluated before being trained as police service dogs. Big difference in sport and the street. BUT I still say that titling for breeding purposes is better than no evals


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

ladylaw203 said:


> One still has to look at the dog. ... BUT I still say that titling for breeding purposes is better than no evals


I agree. A title does not mean that one can "check out" of the decision-making process. It should mean that the trainer has a really good idea of what that dog's strengths and weaknesses are--and then should have a better idea of how (and whether!) to use that dog in a breeding program.


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Another question if you guys don't mind 
I noticed that there are 1-6 lines for czech dogs, my question is how can you tell which line Rhea Mila came from. Furthermore, what are the possible genetic outcomes of the puppies behaviour if she is bred with Dagger de Bellator - German Shepherd Dog

P.S- I know that it is important to see the parents firsthand but I would like to know based on the pedigree itself.
As for social aggression, can someone explain this to me in depth because Im getting mixed signals that it is good and bad?

Ahh p.s.s- Can someone help me with defining sharp aswell :S


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Knowing bloodlines is relevant but we cannot train paper the individual dogs in the mating matter with regard to drive and temperament. Sharp generally means defensive. Nervy. Weak nerves etc. A dog should have a degree of defense but too much and the dog has weak nerves


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Ahh thanks for answering the question about sharpness for me  based on the pedigree of Mila, can you see which dogs were known for being too sharp reactive? thanks once again!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yep. The papers can lead you in the right direction but without looking at the dog yourself you just don't know what the dog really is like. You can't train, title or work papers. A dog with the worst papers ever can be an outstanding, exceptional working dog and then you've got a great Pedigree, promising that "should" be just as good as it's promises and you've got nothing to work with. 

However, if you are succesfull with that dog out of the "worst breeding ever" and you even make it to the Nationals and win... everybody will be running to you. Your dog, however is an exception and what happens is that he does not pass his traits on but the traits of his grandparents or grand-grandparents which had weak nerves, social aggression and overall sucked. 

Stuff like that actually happens. Or, you get a dog out of great breeding that is a so called "end-product". A dog that is working awesome, exceptionally succesfull but he's just not producing those outstanding pups you are looking for. He's producing somewhat decent dogs but just nothing spectacular.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Ask - why the breeding? What are good points of the dogs and the areas that you would like to see improvement on?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

krylos said:


> I'm of the opinion that, for example, a dog that gets a SchH1 at a club-level trial should not really be considered for breeding. I've seen plenty of dogs *squeak* by and get their SchH1 that will probably never make it to SchH2 and definitely not SchH3. Those are the dogs you definitely want to wash out of the breeding genepool. But take a dog to SchH3 multiple times, over several years under a wide variety of conditions and judges... then you have a more reliable evaluation of a dog's temperament and character. Take it further and start competing at the regional or National level where the pressure is greater and the scrutiny of the dog's temperament FAR higher than at the club level and you start to get a good picture of that particular dog. There are things that training can cover up, yes, but take it to the higher levels and the judges look more closely.
> 
> Just my opinion of course...


Good point. Add in the travel, days on the road, different situations, new helpers never worked on and you start to see the dog react to the pressure. Some deal with it and some show stress, move grips under drives and pressure from helper.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Not too many will take the time to put a 3 on a female. They do a fast 1 for breeding purposes and call it good. Especially when they have to deal with heat cycles to delay the titling process. How many females ever, ever go to the nationals for that fact alone? Lana is amazing! I can't wait to see what the future holds! :thumbup:


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

Thanks for the compliment, Jane. Ladylaw is also correct in that SchH is not an all-encompassing evaluation, but it is pretty good at what it does. Ideally, everyone would breed a dog with multiple AKC titles, SchH3 many times over, an HGH, KKL1, A1 hips, etc, etc, etc... You just aren't going to find that perfect of a dog. You have to choose your dog based on what you are going to do with it and stack the deck in your favor with it's ancestors.

So, I do think Kev is coming around to the right question now in asking what the pedigree "predicts" for his pup. It's just a prediction though. Most litters are going to have a certain degree of variance between the pups and so you need to be communicating with the breeder to ensure you have the best chance of getting the type of pup that is going to fit your needs. Be very honest with them so they can assist you. The breeder is the person who is going to see these pups every day for the first 8 weeks of their life. They are going to be the expert on "who the pups are" as individuals. Its still not a perfect science and a dog can "wash out" later in life, but it's better than just grabbing the first pup that walks over to you and says "hi".


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

onyx'girl said:


> Not too many will take the time to put a 3 on a female. They do a fast 1 for breeding purposes and call it good. Especially when they have to deal with heat cycles to delay the titling process. How many females ever, ever go to the nationals for that fact alone? Lana is amazing! I can't wait to see what the future holds! :thumbup:



Or a fast 3, koer and say LOOK!!!!

Kudos to Donovan who is competing with a HOT female at the National level and proving his dog and himself.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

The only problem with that is that the dog, by the time, it has "proven" himself, is almost too old to be bred. 

Say you take the dog, get the BH, title your dogs, than put several years on top of that. Dog is almost five...you get qualified for the nationals... dog is almost 6 and with 7 you have your first litter? Because let's face it. Most dogs get to the Nationals when they are around five years old and not every dog is such a prodigy like Asko vom Siegelgrund that was that young. 

How many years do you think a dog should be competing before you can breed the dog? 

There are those, that title at club level that should never be bred and washed out, that is true but then you have those that are doing the same thing and you know that that female should be bred. 

I agree, if you have an exceptional female, title her, compete with her as much as you want but don't wait until she is too old to have that litter because she might not receive and you might end up with a seven year old female, having tried your third time to get her pregnant and she's getting older and older and older...


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

The problem is, these days, there just aren't that many people involved in SchH here in the USA. So, the judges tend to go easy on the people competing at the club level in general and even more so at the club SchH1 level so as not to discourage them. I've been there, and I've seen it, even experienced it. There have been trials where I got a better score than I think I deserved. From a sport standpoint, that's great. Get as many people involved as possible and keep them involved. Otherwise the sport is going to die out, here in the USA anyway. But it's not necessarily good for a breeding program in the grand scheme of things (breeding across the USA as a whole).

But, if you look at SchH as a breed worthiness test as it was originally intended, and judge accordingly, you make it more difficult for people to title their dogs. From the competitor's viewpoint, if you look at SchH as a breed worthiness test, instead of a stumbling block that is keeping you from breeding, it is a different picture as well. You go out there and truly take to heart what the judge is telling you and what you see in the dog rather than slapping a SchH1 on a dog for no other reason than you want to breed it "legitimately".

No, not everyone needs to be competing at the National level. You are correct in that it takes a long time to get there and would preclude several breedings from good dogs. But I do think it is far to easy to put a SchH1 on a dog and just start breeding. Yes, there are some dogs that you can tell would easily be able to make it to SchH3, but why stop at SchH1 then? Get the titles between litters. It may take longer, but in the end, it makes a stronger case in the pedigree.

To make this relevant to the original poster's questions... I, personally, would have to take a SERIOUS look at the dogs in question and understand them intimately before I would ever consider purchasing a pup out of a litter where neither parent is titled. I would have to be very familiar with their pedigrees, and have seen the dogs in question work under sever pressure and stress on several occasions. And, there would have to be some very good reason that I just HAD to have a dog out of that breeding. Otherwise, I would walk away. There is no way that I'm going to encourage some breeder to do the same thing again (breeding untitled dogs) by purchasing a puppy from an untitled mating.

Sorry if that sounds blunt, mean, etc, but it is the truth as I see it. Seeing the pedigree on this breeding only reinforces my way of thinking to me. The Dam's side of the pedigree is very weak, title-wise, and the more difficult titles are in the pup's fourth generation back. What does that really tell you about the Dam? Not much. The Sire's pedigree is much stronger. You have a better idea what's going on there. But, without a title on either of the breeding pair, you simply don't know what those two dogs themselves are all about.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Agreed. 

I think Schutzhund is not only dying in the USA. It's everywhere. You can see it in Germany. The town I lived in had four or five clubs. They all existed but were literally dead. I was the only one training at the club with the helper. Now the club was turned over to Boxer people. 

Over fifty years the Club existed and it literally ended with the person that kept it alive for those years... and now it's pretty much gone. 

Anyhow, other than that, I comple agree with you. But from what I can see, it is not just a problem in the US. It's a worldwide problem. But since I never did it myself, I shouldn't critique... 





krylos said:


> The problem is, these days, there just aren't that many people involved in SchH here in the USA. So, the judges tend to go easy on the people competing at the club level in general and even more so at the club SchH1 level so as not to discourage them. I've been there, and I've seen it, even experienced it. There have been trials where I got a better score than I think I deserved. From a sport standpoint, that's great. Get as many people involved as possible and keep them involved. Otherwise the sport is going to die out, here in the USA anyway. But it's not necessarily good for a breeding program in the grand scheme of things (breeding across the USA as a whole).
> 
> But, if you look at SchH as a breed worthiness test as it was originally intended, and judge accordingly, you make it more difficult for people to title their dogs. From the competitor's viewpoint, if you look at SchH as a breed worthiness test, instead of a stumbling block that is keeping you from breeding, it is a different picture as well. You go out there and truly take to heart what the judge is telling you and what you see in the dog rather than slapping a SchH1 on a dog for no other reason than you want to breed it "legitimately".
> 
> ...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think you are WAY off base in your conclusions, but that is just my opinion. The mother has a very strong pedigree genetically, which passes in a breeding, and not as strong titlewise, which does not pass in the breeding of the dogs. The parents will pass the genes and not the titles in a breeding. Most high titles in the work are as much a part of the training from adept trainers which also doesn't pass in a breeding. i guess we just see this very differently!


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

I'm just saying there isn't much other than people's interpretations of the Dam's pedigree to go on since most of the titles are low level and the Dam herself isn't even titled. How do you know that any of the Dam's side didn't try to title and fail?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Isn't one side of the dam via Pohranici Straze which already proofed itself? That is one name that will give you a lot of information already. Now the sires side, I have no idea...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

For the many posters on this thread who are fairly new to the world of SchH and the breeding of GSD, when looking at those pedigrees, please understand that the old SchH1 that included the attack on handler out of the blind, used to be the breed test. This was THE test because unlike the SchH2 and SchH3 the first bite was a defensive bite and not a prey bite (escape). To say that a dog ONLY has a SchH1 is to show a lack of understanding of what one is looking at when researching pedigrees. Now, unfortunately, it has changed and only dogs that do either the AWD1 or pass a correctly done Kör see this type of test. 

Friends of mine believe that only dogs (males and females) that have competed in a minimum of a Landesgruppen should be bred. That means a bitch that is SchH3/IPO3. That often means these females are being bred for the first time when they are 4 - 4.5 years old. No test breedings to make sure the female can conceive before titling and no breeding dogs only titled in club trials. A lot of risks involved in waiting, but their success rate in producing a high percentage of titled and working dogs has been phenomenal. 

A good breeder/handler knows their dog extremely well by the time they put that SchH1 on the dog. At least if they are honest with themselves which is a problem in and of itself. Although I respect the breeding criteria of my friends especially their success, I would not discount a litter from the right breeder and the right dogs just because the dogs may ONLY have a SchH1.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

Just because the dogs came from the Czech police dog kennel does not in itself mean the dogs are capable of doing the work. Why did they sell the dogs? If they were excellent prospects, don't you think they would keep them?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they ARE bad dogs, just that we really don't have much info. What is Cliff's basis to say the Dam's pedigree is strong genetically? Anyone can say that, and I have an open mind, but it takes facts to convince me. Right now, I have a whole bunch of SchH1 dogs to look at on the Dam's side. Again, not saying they are bad, just saying it doesn't give me a whole lot of info to go on since I'm not familiar with those lines. The OP isn't either, or he wouldn't be asking the question. Me, personally, I wouldn't take the chance. My female's Dam was only a SchH1, but the great majority of her pedigree is SchH3, IPO3, etc. I could be relatively certain that even though her mom hadn't been evaluated at a higher level that the genetics to get to a higher level were there. I'm just saying I don't see that in this Dam's case. But again, this is all my opinion. I'm not trying to tell anyone their wrong, just to think seriously before you encourage someone to breed an untitled pair again. First one breeder does it, then another, then another... We have enough BYB's already. For the sake of the breed, evaluations need to be taken seriously... SchH, HGH, CERTIFIED Police Dogs... whatever it may be.

Just my two cents... Obviously I'm biased


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

lhczth said:


> For the many posters on this thread who are fairly new to the world of SchH and the breeding of GSD, when looking at those pedigrees, please understand that the old SchH1 that included the attack on handler out of the blind, used to be the breed test. This was THE test because unlike the SchH2 and SchH3 the first bite was a defensive bite and not a prey bite (escape). To say that a dog ONLY has a SchH1 is to show a lack of understanding of what one is looking at when researching pedigrees. Now, unfortunately, it has changed and only dogs that do either the AWD1 or pass a correctly done Kör see this type of test.
> 
> Friends of mine believe that only dogs (males and females) that have competed in a minimum of a Landesgruppen should be bred. That means a bitch that is SchH3/IPO3. That often means these females are being bred for the first time when they are 4 - 4.5 years old. No test breedings to make sure the female can conceive before titling and no breeding dogs only titled in club trials. A lot of risks involved in waiting, but their success rate in producing a high percentage of titled and working dogs has been phenomenal.
> 
> A good breeder/handler knows their dog extremely well by the time they put that SchH1 on the dog. At least if they are honest with themselves which is a problem in and of itself. Although I respect the breeding criteria of my friends especially their success, I would not discount a litter from the right breeder and the right dogs just because the dogs may ONLY have a SchH1.



Good thoughts here... but remember, the OP is talking about a totally untitled mating pair.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> I know a little bit about Czech dogs myself, and they are just like anything else in breeding....its about the individual mating. One of the best producing Czech females I know for producing exceptional nerve and working ability is Zendy Aritar Bastet. She is linebred 2-4 on Tom z Pohraninci straze....know of pups from 3 different litters and two different sires....now if she is 2-4 on Tom that makes her linebred on Cordon???? The breeder in this case owned Tom's mother,(Axa) and bred her to Cordon to produce Tom....I think he knows a little bit about Cordon and of course Tom. Cordon and Tom can be linebred on, but you have to have the right compliments to go with them as in any other breeding. I also am quite familar with the other Czech dogs in this pedigree as I have owned dogs out of their lines also. Of course any breeding is a crapshoot to a degree, but it always comes down to compatibility of two parents and combination/recombination that takes place.



There is a big difference in an experienced breeder in the Czech Rep. who sees and knows the dogs for generations of what they are breeding, and people who buy puppies, raise them and breed them without titles, without mentors, without years and years of experience and knowledge about the pedigrees. Too many litters here are bred and sold, pushed because there are a number of BSP dogs, or linebreeding on big name-but the breeder has no clue what and why the combination can bring - good or bad. 

Here we have buyers who have no experience with the breed - heck, no experience with any dog with drives - who want to do sport....without a real depth of understanding of what that means in terms of time, effort and overall committment. 

It is sad that so many dogs are bred and sold here that end up put down, abandoned and passed around....and the lack of knowledge is a major reason why this happens IMO....

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

krylos said:


> Good thoughts here... but remember, the OP is talking about a totally untitled mating pair.


I was responding to some of the other posts about level of titles, club trials, JUST a SchH1, etc.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

lhczth said:


> For the many posters on this thread who are fairly new to the world of SchH and the breeding of GSD, when looking at those pedigrees, please understand that the old SchH1 that included the attack on handler out of the blind, used to be the breed test. This was THE test because unlike the SchH2 and SchH3 the first bite was a defensive bite and not a prey bite (escape). To say that a dog ONLY has a SchH1 is to show a lack of understanding of what one is looking at when researching pedigrees. Now, unfortunately, it has changed and only dogs that do either the AWD1 or pass a correctly done Kör see this type of test.


True, very true, and you see the trend when you look back past the 5th, 6th, 7th, or more generations in the pedigrees and usually on the Dam's side. The evaluation was more difficult back then and it meant a lot more. For the most part, the successful dogs in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generations will usually be a SchH3, under the newer rules... I lost my train of thought... continue the discussion please


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The level of title is irrelevant IMO.....I have seen dogs who have sch3, go to a national event, fail or barely pass - who get trialed on home fields only, etc etc etc that I would not take a puppy out of as a gift!!!!!!!! I have seen judges give a dog a 99 in protection on an 85 routine (which the dog got next time out with the same basic routine!!)....Titles and training are a way to understand your dog....but that only matters if the breeder really is objective and understands what he is seeing and does not delude himself. 

NOT specific to this litter!!!! But to breeding in general and the discussion of breeding a Sch1 vs a Sch3....my Sch1 female as strong as any Sch3 female I have ever seen, and even more than many males...she is only a sch1 coz of BS drama, timing, gas prices, and my aversion to tracking .... 

Lee


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

PETA and the Green Party have been a major contributor to the erosion of really testing a dog... Ok, now I'm getting all political too, sorry.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> The level of title is irrelevant IMO.....I have seen dogs who have sch3, go to a national event, fail or barely pass - who get trialed on home fields only, etc etc etc that I would not take a puppy out of as a gift!!!!!!!! I have seen judges give a dog a 99 in protection on an 85 routine (which the dog got next time out with the same basic routine!!)....Titles and training are a way to understand your dog....but that only matters if the breeder really is objective and understands what he is seeing and does not delude himself.


I said something very similar in an earlier post. I know I've been "given" points in the past. No idea why, and I wasn't going to turn them down, but I was also very cognizant of the fact that I didn't think I did as well as the score indicated. But you are totally correct, EVERYONE needs to take it more seriously for it to really mean anything... the judges, the competitors, the breeders... If it is just a means to an end, it means very little. If you look deeply into the evaluation and break every exercise down to see what each really evaluates, there is a lot more there than meets the eye.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

krylos said:


> PETA and the Green Party have been a major contributor to the erosion of really testing a dog... Ok, now I'm getting all political too, sorry.


But it's the truth... politics plays a huge factor into the sport of Schutzhund. Just look at several countries that have either banned prongs, Shock Collars, Austria is ALWAYS fighting against the nutjobs that are trying to ban the ENTIRE SPORT of Schutzhund. Just last year they've tried banning it again and people were rallying against it. 

It's bad training, bad dog owners, irresponsible people that make it look bad and that is a major contribution. In todays world, dogs like Gildo, Arek, Olko, Pike etc. are not wanted in the sport anymore. Nobody wants to see that kind of dog. It's about precision and accuracy. It's a Show and even that has to fight, constantly against those that are trying to get rid of the sport alltogether.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It is no longer called Schutzhund...but IPO. 2012 has begun


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> It is no longer called Schutzhund...but IPO. 2012 has begun


Grrr... yet another political influence... Can't have a bunch of Titled 'Protection Dogs" running around loose in public, now can we?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> It is no longer called Schutzhund...but IPO. 2012 has begun


Same in Germany. There it's VPG unless they changed that too...haven't really followed it recently.


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## Frankly I'm Frank (Jan 2, 2012)

What does IPO stand for?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

International Prufungs Ordnung(International Examination Regulations) or versatility test
International Police Organization....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

> What is Cliff's basis for saying the dam's line is strong?


Well....In looking at the 4 quadrants of the parents of the dam, let's see....I've owned a daughter of Tom z PS, linebred a litter on Grim z PS (in which I owned both parents), owned a daughter of Hagi Barnero, who has similar breeding as Cheers on the dam side, and have talked to people in Slovakia about Bax before. Might not mean anything, but I am familar with the genetics of these dogs firsthand, so I might have an idea of the genetics of the dogs in general. Then again, I could be all wrong and your point about her because of lack of titles be valid. You're closer to this than me, so I'll back off.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This is an 11 month old puppy who's father was Sch 1 and mother was Zvv1.....never ever saw either parent and he has a brother in the States that might be better than him. Lack of high titles never entered my mind in acquiring him. I think he is pretty strong and very stable.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

> Well....In looking at the 4 quadrants of the parents of the dam, let's see....I've owned a daughter of Tom z PS, linebred a litter on Grim z PS (in which I owned both parents), owned a daughter of Hagi Barnero, who has similar breeding as Cheers on the dam side, and have talked to people in Slovakia about Bax before. Might not mean anything, but I am familar with the genetics of these dogs firsthand, so I might have an idea of the genetics of the dogs in general. Then again, I could be all wrong and your point about her because of lack of titles be valid. You're closer to this than me, so I'll back off.


No need to back off... You provided a lot more facts that time around, and it is cleat that you DO, in fact, know the Dam's pedigree... if some dude on a web forum is to be believed... (now I'm just messin' with you)

I know it sounds like I'm stuck on higher level titles. I probably haven't "enunciated" it very well, but I do believe some title is better than no title. Like I stated earlier, IDEALLY we would all be breeding dogs that went KKL1, SchH3, HGH, etc, etc, etc. Its just not going to happen.

But, let's please remember what this thread is about, two *UN*titled dogs being bred. Defending that, no matter how good the supporting pedigree, is a very dangerous thing to do for the greater good of the breed. If a dog is good enough to be bred, it should also be good enough to get a basic working title and be good enough to wait for that to happen.

Please don't try to convince me that there just wasn't enough time in that 5 year old female's lifetime to AT LEAST put a SchH1 on her... Or the 4 year old male for that matter...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm not trying to convince you of anything....doesn't benefit me any....I KNOW about these dogs....I just let my dogs speak for me.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

krylos said:


> No need to back off... You provided a lot more facts that time around, and it is cleat that you DO, in fact, know the Dam's pedigree... if some dude on a web forum is to be believed... (now I'm just messin' with you)
> 
> I know it sounds like I'm stuck on higher level titles. I probably haven't "enunciated" it very well, but I do believe some title is better than no title. Like I stated earlier, IDEALLY we would all be breeding dogs that went KKL1, SchH3, HGH, etc, etc, etc. Its just not going to happen.
> 
> ...


 
I thought the original poster was the one looking for a dog--yep nice contribution again holland (Just so Jane doesn't have to say it)


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

cliffson1 said:


> This is an 11 month old puppy who's father was Sch 1 and mother was Zvv1.....never ever saw either parent and he has a brother in the States that might be better than him. Lack of high titles never entered my mind in acquiring him. I think he is pretty strong and very stable.


 
I agree. I am about to breed my Karo Skocica Samota _ZM,ZOP,ZPU,FPR,FPR,ZVV1,ZZZ,ZZP,RHE,ZM TART
IRO titled SAR dog_ to my ZVV1 Gabbi Morika Bohemia. Of course they are titled but I have thoroughly evaluated these dogs and they have the traits that I need for police and SAR work. This is an outcross,so I will have to see what I produce but I do not breed dogs that I cannot work on the street. Those are MY standards. Even with all of those titles further evaluation is necessary. DNA can be uncooperative though...


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Kev said:


> Another question if you guys don't mind
> I noticed that there are 1-6 lines for czech dogs, my question is how can you tell which line Rhea Mila came from. Furthermore, what are the possible genetic outcomes of the puppies behaviour if she is bred with Dagger de Bellator - German Shepherd Dog


I see no one answered this and don't know if you got the answer. You need to look at the sire's side and go back on the males to find out what czech line it is. (Father, grand father, great grandfather, etc)

Certain lines produce certain characteristics BUT you have to be careful b/c even though it is say line 4...the dog may show more characteristics of line 3. So you still have to look at the dog and the progeny to see how he produced to different females.

The czech bloodline gives you a generic type to begin with.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> There is a big difference in an experienced breeder in the Czech Rep. who sees and knows the dogs for generations of what they are breeding, and people who buy puppies, raise them and breed them without titles, without mentors, without years and years of experience and knowledge about the pedigrees. Too many litters here are bred and sold, pushed because there are a number of BSP dogs, or linebreeding on big name-but the breeder has no clue what and why the combination can bring - good or bad.
> 
> Here we have buyers who have no experience with the breed - heck, no experience with any dog with drives - who want to do sport....without a real depth of understanding of what that means in terms of time, effort and overall committment.
> 
> ...


I think your point here got overlooked and is extremely valid.

Many people want to breed dogs but don't have the time to work them. I have learned now working dogs is the hardest thing. I have gained a lot of respect for people that title a dog in Sch due to the amount of time and commitment it takes. 

I am not the biggest fan of the sport but I think the OB part is something that all people should be forced to do if they want to breed as a bare minimum. OB meaning BH. I think it would weed a lot of people out.

BUT....

This thread is about Czech linebreeding and so I will stay on topic.
I would trust someone who has actual hands on knowledge of these dogs than someone who just matches up high titles. I am slowly learning genetics is where the most studying needs to be done rather than the titles even though titles are nice.

You have to see (or know from someone)how the dog work and know how they produce with different matings to give solid judgment.


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Ace952 said:


> I see no one answered this and don't know if you got the answer. You need to look at the sire's side and go back on the males to find out what czech line it is. (Father, grand father, great grandfather, etc)
> 
> Certain lines produce certain characteristics BUT you have to be careful b/c even though it is say line 4...the dog may show more characteristics of line 3. So you still have to look at the dog and the progeny to see how he produced to different females.
> 
> The czech bloodline gives you a generic type to begin with.


Ahh I see, thank you very much 
When you say the sire is from line 4 which I believe belonged to Utz vHouse Schutting, I also see Rolf Osnabruckerland and Hettel in the bloodline. How is it the sire is line 4 for even though it has line 5 and 2 in there? Shouldnt he be from line 5 since his pedigree was traced back to Rolf before utz?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

holland said:


> I thought the original poster was the one looking for a dog--yep nice contribution again holland (Just so Jane doesn't have to say it)


:laugh: :laugh:!!!!


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

Ok, this will be my last post on the subject because we really have hijacked Kev's thread pretty bad. Sorry, Kev.

I guess my point is that, yes, there are a lot of people out there who really do know how to read a dog, who really do have experience with dogs in the pedigree, etc. LadyLaw and Cliff, I would take nothing away from you guys. LadyLaw, I feel a working Police dog certification is every bit as good as a SchH evaluation and even moreso. There is a whole rigorous certification process there, and forgive me if I came across sounding like I was diminishing that in some way. That was not my intent. BUT, we cannot rely solely on Cliff's opinion of a dog (stay with me Cliff, I promise this isn't a ding on you...) to make a breeding decision. There is a whole structured system of judges out there that are SUPPOSED to be making unbiased decisions and evaluating the most important traits of the GSD (granted, SchH, IPO, HGH, are not all-encompassing or perfect, but they prove certain things). This is, of course, assuming that the judges are doing it right, and not that I'm pointing at "corruption" more that I'm referring back to that post of mine about how easy it is to put that first title on a dog (most of the time).

When you have someone who is obviously as experienced with a bloodline as Cliff is, that is awesome. It's very important to have that, but the thing is, we don't always have that. Someone looking at the same litter who has never heard of Cliff isn't going to know to go find Cliff, or even this forum for that matter, to ask his opinion of the breeding. In my mind, the whole point of putting a title on the dog is to say to the world that we put this dog in front of an unbiased third party (certified judge), and here is what they had to say about it. They evaluated the dog and found it fit to carry on the GSD heritage as a working dog. Again, in most situations, Cliff's opinion would be invaluable, but what happens 3 or 4 generations from now when several more untitled dogs in this bloodline have been bred and we lose sight of any type of evaluation of the dogs. Is Cliff's opinion still valid? I'm not going to say it isn't, but it's difficult to say it is with 100% certainty. Cliff, your knowledge is amazing, invaluable! It's just not accessible to everyone, you know?

Please, let us not lose sight of the fact that the GSD was intended to be a working dog, and without some sort of working evaluation and titling system, we lose that. It is up to us to ensure we take the high ground and get our dogs evaluated in some way. Sure, anyone can go breed two dogs, there's no law against it... but we need to do the right thing.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Kev said:


> Ahh I see, thank you very much
> When you say the sire is from line 4 which I believe belonged to Utz vHouse Schutting, I also see Rolf Osnabruckerland and Hettel in the bloodline. How is it the sire is line 4 for even though it has line 5 and 2 in there? Shouldnt he be from line 5 since his pedigree was traced back to Rolf before utz?


I'm sorry, I used 4th bloodline as an example.

Out of the mating you presented, the puppies would be out of the 3rd bloodline (going from the sire's side). On the dam's side they would be 5th bloodline. From how I was taught, you look at only the sire's side as the sire has the most influence (others may disagree) because he is used more in breedings.

With all that said in general talk, this would be a 4th bloodline mating (Jinopo would describe it that way on their website when speaking about a dog from this litter. Just to give you reference of where I am coming from).

Some czech breeders such as Jinopo would consider this breeding a outcross as it is on a line next directly next to it. 

With that said you really need to look at the parents and grandparents to see what traits would most likely come through with the puppies.

This is how some czech breeders would see it. Talk to others and you would get a different explanation but with you referring to lines and all this is how it would be viewed. 3rd bloodline mating outcrossed on the 5th bloodline. Now you need to figure out what are the characteristics of both of those bloodlines and and see if you seem them in the dogs represented with the parents and grandparents to help you guess (as it is all guess work) what you may end up producing. Somethings may be constant and others may change.


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Oh, so what Im getting at is breeding 5th and 3rd line would possibly create pups from the 4th line?
Here are characteristics I found on the bloodlines by alpine k9 from hans himself 
"1.st line is gone no dogs in it - extinct.
2.nd line: sable, hard, in PP high anger level, great trackers, dominant thus lesser obedience.
3.rd line: very versatile dogs, high endurance and drive, our most popular line, smaller dogs 
4.th line square dogs super protectiveness, handler aggression, early workers, 
5.line widely spread many branches love trainer , otherwise not very consistent line, medium sized dogs,B/R, endurance, big heads, hard, clear headed
6.Czech line based on ZVV3 dogs. "


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Kev said:


> Oh, so what Im getting at is breeding 5th and 3rd line would possibly create pups from the 4th line?


uh....no....lol 

This breeding is a total outcross. Your best bet is to research the dogs in the 1st (3) generations and try to find out all the good and bad that they offer and then look at their littermates as well as progeny.

There are check as German dogs in this PED so you have to do your research on them. I wouldn't be too concerned with the czech bloodlines (what bloodlines you are dealing with) on this one.


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## Alphak9 (Mar 9, 2011)

Nice peds. Good luck. Keep us updated!


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## BlackJack (Jun 23, 2011)

Correct me if I am wrong, but the dam, should belong to the 3rd Czech line, on Klodo vom Boxburg.

But on the title thing, I think as whole GSD community is obsessed with titles. Its another tool for breeders yes, it helps out new people to the bred, but like many have said a handler should know the dog by 2 years old. 

Besides watch a Seiger show look at all the SchH3 dogs and that should tell you how important those titles are.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

BlackJack said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but the dam, should belong to the 3rd Czech line, on Klodo vom Boxburg.
> 
> But on the title thing, I think as whole GSD community is obsessed with titles. Its another tool for breeders yes, it helps out new people to the bred, but like many have said a handler should know the dog by 2 years old.
> 
> Besides watch a Seiger show look at all the SchH3 dogs and that should tell you how important those titles are.


Incorrect. The Dam (Millview's Rhea Mila of ACM) goes through Ingo v. Rudigen which goes back to the founder, Rolf v.o. Land.

I agree with the titles thing but it is better to have that than nothing. Your key is knowing people who have seen and worked the dog. Not every breeder is honest in how their dogs are.

There are many breeders that don't title their dogs and will tell people, "I live with them, I know them." I wouldn't just trust any breeder with that.

Knowing lines is good but knowing the dog and seeing them work is more important than anything. Going by just czech lines has its faults IMO but I could be wrong.


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