# Scuffle vs Fight? How do you define?



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Sorry, dumb question, but what behaviors actually make a fight a fight? Or a scuffle a scuffle? 

Sorry to be vague, am typing on phone... I'm thinking about something that happened between dogs this weekend and if I can truly call it a fight.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Blood and wounds defines a fight to me. And if it's my blood.....


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

At my house, if nobody gets injured it's a scuffle. If there's blood or an injury it's a fight. I try to catch scuffles about 3/4 of the way in so both dogs get to make their point, but it doesn't become a fight. I have no idea how to tell you to do this, though; I just go by feel.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Were either of the dogs injured?

It's hard to articulate the difference between an argument (as I like to call it ) and a fight but you'll know it when you see it and feel it. Generally speaking, a true fight will leave some marks and there will be bleeding but just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it won't escalate next time.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

For me, a scuffle is a disagreement between 2 dogs. It does not result in any injury and they break up on their own. Looks more like a temper tantrum for one dog, directed towards another.

A fight, to me, usually requires intervention and can lead to injuries. Usually all-out argument and both parties are defensive. After you intervene, the dogs are still grumbing at each other.

Hope that helps


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

IMO - when a fight breaks out, it's all out...chairs flying...tables turned over...a blind fury where neither dog hears or sees anything else but the other dog. Getting involved puts you and anybody else attempting to break it up in danger. 

IMO - a scuffle is where they might get vocal, they might actually mouth eachother but they are looking for a way or reason to back down. Normally, you can stop them verbally.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't know - Dachshunds get in a ton of scrapes and scuffles and Tristan doesn't "play fair" so there's sometimes blood. Most recently there was one stitch to close a wound on a foot. Tristan had bruises on his shoulder and his groin area.
But later on, they both calmed down and are snuggling even now as I type. The tussle was weeks ago now. 

I think if they hold their "grudge" more than an hour or so, it's a fight. 

PS. It's usually over food in our house - and when the food is removed (my daughter was eating on the couch and that's what triggered it - both wanted to be "closest" to her to get any crumbs that may drop!?) they get along okay most the time.



> . Generally speaking, a true fight will leave some marks and there will be bleeding but just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it won't escalate next time.


I would tend to agree, but perhaps it has to do with breed as much as anything, including temperament of the individuals, because Tristan tends to leave a small incision-like wound when he "fights" or gets in a scrap. I mean...if you went by injury or blood alone then we have actual fights. If it's hurt feelings more than wounds (they aren't gaping holes, but definitely a small injury) then it's really just a scuffle.

That said - we do not - ever - leave him out with the other Dachshunds and with the exception of a pair of siblings which share a crate, we don't leave the Dachshunds alone with each other very long if at all (to run across the street for the mail, is about it!!)


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Our dogs can get pretty rough but they never get to the point where they won't stop if I make a noise, clap my hands, yell "hey" etc. As long as they respond to me I figure we're good. I also watch their body language. It's real easy to tell when one of them has had enough. 

I have a video of them going at it and we made them stop. (Annie had stopped having fun.) I'll post it so you can see. 

They've never had a real fight where we had to step in and physically separate them. Annie will give Harley some quick ra-ra-ra's and show her teeth if he annoys her, but it's so quick it's over before it starts. (he knows when to back off, lol)


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Here you go. I should explain we had really lousy weather for a few days and a hurricane. The dogs had been cooped up inside more than normal, Harley was raring to go. Watch her body language compared to his. (she's the longstock) (if you click on the image the video should start)


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Lilie said:


> IMO - when a fight breaks out, it's all out...chairs flying...tables turned over...a blind fury where neither dog hears or sees anything else but the other dog. Getting involved puts you and anybody else attempting to break it up in danger.
> 
> IMO - a scuffle is where they might get vocal, they might actually mouth each other but they are looking for a way or reason to back down. Normally, you can stop them verbally.


That's broken down well from my experience also. 


BTW, whiteshepherds, that is a great video to show a scuffle and GREAT timing on your part to break it off. Have to wait to the end of the tape.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> That's broken down well from my experience also.
> 
> BTW, whiteshepherds, that is a great video to show a scuffle and GREAT timing on your part to break it off. Have to wait to the end of the tape.


Thanks for the vid! It was easy to see the tension building and yes, perfect time for a cut-off.

Also thanks for all the responses. What I went thru with my dogs, according to the definitions given, was something between a scuffle and a fight. 

No bloodshed and no marks on either dog. I'm the only one with an "injury." A tiny red toothmark at the base of my thumb. Because of course I jumped in and did what everyone says not to do.

On the positive side, tonight with the boys free together was a little "off" at first. A little tense. Tucker was hanging back from Bailey. We worked obedience stuff and that was great advice given from a post I made about their fight. Really redirected focus. Once allowed to play, they did eventually play like any other day. No dumb stuff. I'll still be on my guard, but they seemed to get over it just fine.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

chelle said:


> What I went thru with my dogs, according to the definitions given, was something between a scuffle and a fight.
> 
> No bloodshed and no marks on either dog. I'm the only one with an "injury." A tiny red toothmark at the base of my thumb. Because of course I jumped in and did what everyone says not to do.


Not what you want to hear but in my experience, it takes at least 3 times before you learn to keep yourself out of the way. Also, a lot of times, US jumping in can escalate things that otherwise might have settled on their own or without physical intervention.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Not what you want to hear but in my experience, it takes at least 3 times before you learn to keep yourself out of the way. Also, a lot of times, US jumping in can escalate things that otherwise might have settled on their own or without physical intervention.


If it takes a normal person three times, it'll surely take me six.  Sigh.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Here you go. I should explain we had really lousy weather for a few days and a hurricane. The dogs had been cooped up inside more than normal, Harley was raring to go. Watch her body language compared to his. (she's the longstock) (if you click on the image the video should start)


 
Nice video! Thanks.

Would you call that a "scuffle"? I would just call it two dogs playing.

Our past two dogs would play a lot harder than that with a LOT more noise and flashing of teeth. Those two look like they were having a great time with each other.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Nice video! Thanks.
> 
> *Would you call that a "scuffle"? I would just call it two dogs playing.*
> 
> Our past two dogs would play a lot harder than that with a LOT more noise and flashing of teeth. Those two look like they were having a great time with each other.


I agree! Our dogs do wayyy more than this when it's a scuffle/borderline fight. This is just two dogs having fun, the longer coat gets a bit miffed but there was no engagement at all! The female simply rarr'ed at the male who fell over/away, if this was an actual scuffle, the male would have stood his ground and engaged!

You'd have really flipped when my Sheltie mix and Basset were going at it - I separated them 3 x by slinging a bag of shoes at them, and each time they re-engaged and there was bloodshed. There were two very unhappy bitches at the end of it all. 

FTR, I've never stuck my hand in a fight. Grab something - anything - to stick between them. A chair, a pillow, anything, so you can break the fight up, but do not stick your hand in there. I've never stuck my hand in there, but because our dogs are usually smaller (Dachshunds primarily and that size) I have kicked one of the opponents off the other (by kicked I don't mean a full on punt, but definitely catch one and "sling" it away from the other). If it's a milder "tiff" I can stick my foot/leg between (if wearing boots/jeans) and break it up.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I would agree with Codmaster on the video. Annie was definitely telling him she was done but it looked more like a basic correction, not that it couldn't have escalated if you hadn't stepped in when you did. Guess it just goes to show how differently "scuffle" and "fight" can be defined  Tango and Scarlett have had scuffles, Sasha and Scarlett have had fights. Drawn out, for blood, tension never goes away fights. 

I kind of feel like once you've experienced an actual fight, you immediately know the difference. At least I did. It's very different than a scuffle that is mostly just communication with no intent to actually harm the other dog. I thought those were bad until things with south with Scarlett and Sasha.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

No offense, white, but I've seen that vid before and it's like you're almost paranoid of them getting into a fight (you start off early saying "break it up", when there's not really anything going on except a good romp). 
Have there been fights in the past where both were engaged, or was it ever more than what we're watching on this particular video?




> I kind of feel like once you've experienced an actual fight, you immediately know the difference.
> 
> I thought those were bad until things with south with Scarlett and Sasha.


Yeah for sure...if I wasn't so set on getting ours apart I could have video'ed it, but by the time I got them apart as it was, the last time one needed stitches.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> No offense, white, but I've seen that vid before and it's like you're almost paranoid of them getting into a fight (you start off early saying "break it up", when there's not really anything going on except a good romp).
> Have there been fights in the past where both were engaged, or was it ever more than what we're watching on this particular video?


No, they've never had a real fight, they get along really well. I never thought of myself as being paranoid, I suppose I could be. The dogs seem to handle it okay. 



msvette2u said:


> Yeah for sure...if I wasn't so set on getting ours apart I could have video'ed it, but by the time I got them apart as it was, the last time one needed stitches.


I break things up before we need stitches. Maybe you aren't paranoid enough?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, again, it's the breed of dog, I'm sure - some are just more feisty than others 

But no, we're plenty "paranoid", any more so and we'd never let them interact. Things are great about 98% of the time. You cannot account for that 2% at times - and we've got a lot more dogs and a lot more going on than you do there (8 full time dogs and at the moment, 2 fosters in our front room!)



> I break things up before we need stitches.


From the vid, I'd say your dogs are quite nicely behaved around each other and you probably don't have to worry much about "breaking it up" as much as you do - at that rate, nobody there would need stitches. 
Things to watch for are, your male not backing away/backing down. When that starts happening, that's when you end it. Otherwise you're just putting the kibosh on their play


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

For me, the length of the dispute defines it. Do they stop when you tell them (in a relatively short amount of time) or stop without you having to say anything? If so, in my opinion, it is a scuffle. If it is prolonged and you have to repeatedly (say, more than 2 times) tell them to knock it off or have to physically remove them (not a good idea, but sometimes it has to be done), it is a fight. In my opinion, you do not need blood or a wound for there to be a fight. A scuffle could result in a wound and a fight might not produce any wounds.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I would think that in a 'fight' there will be a winner and a loser


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Stosh said:


> I would think that in a 'fight' there will be a winner and a loser


Hm...that's a good point, but how would you know who won or lost, if you intervene before they are "done"?


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Scuffles are much more limited with one dog usually 'yielding'. We had a serious scuffle once when Cochise abandoned his heart treat to go rob one of the cats. He returned to 'his' only to discover da Vinci had found & claimed it. He was righteously miffed & insisted da Vinci give it back. Da Vinci wasn't a thief & firmly believed it was truly his. Their engagement was getting ugly so I roared out my general disapproval & possibly thumped an available shoulder/thigh which broke it up. I insisted da Vinci hand it over. Cochise gave me a beaming smile & I STILL remember his comically shocked expression when I gave it a cursory examination then returned it to da Vinci. I'd 'agreed' with da Vinci from the beginning but I'd never seen them so excited over food/treats & I wanted to be certain da Vinci would hand it over to me. 

Sam & Spanky once had a fight over loose kibble I'd tossed on the floor. I broke them up by grabbing Spanky's back legs & pulling them apart. Fortunately, neither insisted on hanging on & continuing the struggle. Spanky suffered minor injuries that didn't require treatment. Sam was better protected by her heavy coat & appeared unscathed. Both watched the other carefully over the following few days, wearing expressions that looked kinda like, 'crazeee bitch. sheeeesh...' Neither tried to start up again. They seemed to be walking on eggshells around each other for a week or two, uncertain what the other might do. For which I was extremely grateful b/c I worried it might turn into one of those hellacious perpetual bitch struggles. I think each believed she was right & the other bitch was wrong. Fortunately, neither held a grudge, though I never again scattered kibble.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

RubyTuesday said:


> ............They seemed to be walking on eggshells around each other for a week or two, uncertain what the other might do. ............. Fortunately, neither held a grudge, though I never again scattered kibble.


The boys did the eggshell thing for a short time as well, though only for a day or less. It was easy to see, though. Tucker was standoffish. Bailey was apologetic. Ok, weird to say it that way, but that's how it was.

I changed my attitude and made a decision to *not* be paranoid and to be confident that I can deal with their little-boy antics. I *can* see them getting worked up, and I *can* easily redirect/distract. They're really just babies, at almost a year, and re-direction with treats and obedience is not hard at all -- I just have to be on top of things at the right time. I know the triggers (attention) and I know now to distribute attention and affection and reward each -- the one getting the love *and* the one waiting for it. 

Not difficult to see now, but I suppose we had to go thru it to get me to "get it." That's not to say there won't be future squirmishes, there surely will be, but I definitely don't live in fear of it happening again. I hope it never will, but that's not too realistic. They're young, they're male, they play hard - they're going to be dingbats - but I think we'll be ok.  (Hope these aren't famous last words )


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I gave it a cursory examination then returned it to da Vinci.


While I understand the other dog "losing" his treat, I would have removed the treat altogether, that is, neither dog got it.
That's how we handle things here, but if we are giving treats, it's when I can supervise and only a few dogs are loose in the area. 
I can only manage about 4-5 in the room w/treats, the rest can have theirs later. And if someone leaves a treat behind and goes elsewhere, I usually remove said treat so it doesn't become an issue.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

IMHO- If there is any veterinary care involved, it is a fight, not a scuffle. If there is a wound that requires treatment, it is a fight to me. 

I stop my dogs before there are any wounds. That is my job as their owner and as the manager of a multi dog household. Everyone is allowed to live in peace and not worry about fights. 

Scuffles happen and a firm Knock it off breaks them up. I watch body language and know my dogs well enough to prevent any injuries from occuring! 

My 2 boys are not even allowed to posture at each other. Posturing would lead to a fight with them. Finding the triggers and stopping them from going off is what works best in this house!


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## BlackCat (Sep 22, 2011)

Bay and Kyrie are siblings and just turned a year old. Generally, they play together great, but once in a while one gets on the other's last nerve. Usually, Bay (male) bugs his sister just a little too much and she tells him what for. When they get to the curled lip stage I step in and stop it with a "That's enough!" and separate them for a while. Neither one has drawn blood or needed vet care.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

VonKromeHaus said:


> IMHO- If there is any veterinary care involved, it is a fight, not a scuffle. If there is a wound that requires treatment, it is a fight to me.
> 
> I stop my dogs before there are any wounds. That is my job as their owner and as the manager of a multi dog household. Everyone is allowed to live in peace and not worry about fights.
> 
> ...


Boy, isn't that the truth, or so I'm learning as I go.

It is Bailey who occasionally attempts to posture. He was the resident dog when his brother came here about 6 weeks ago. He's also intact. I don't know how much that has to do with it. I'm finding that giving him lots of kudos and love after I give Tucker love and affection seem to make Bailey much more accepting of Tucker. Maybe he knows he's going to be highly praised. Not sure, but he's been a lot better since I thought about things after the scuffight.  There's my new word for the day. :crazy:


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> While I understand the other dog "losing" his treat, I would have removed the treat altogether, that is, neither dog got it.


I decide on who gets what. Period.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> The boys did the eggshell thing for a short time as well, though only for a day or less. It was easy to see, though. Tucker was standoffish. Bailey was apologetic. Ok, weird to say it that way, but that's how it was.


No, not weird at all. I can 'see it' exactly as you describe it. Neither Sam nor Spanky was apologetic. I think both were convinced she was right & that other bitch was flatout nutzzz. Fortunately neither held a grudge or wanted a rematch. There was no bristling, 'inadvertent' bumping, hard stares etc. It took a bit before they were easy with each other, but (thankfully) neither wanted to make an enemy of the other.



> While I understand the other dog "losing" his treat, I would have removed the treat altogether, that is, neither dog got it.


With your pack that might be a preferable approach. My reason for returning it to da Vinci actually had more to do with Cochise than da Vinci. As with Falkosmom, the ultimate decision is always _mine_.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm glad this thread popped back up. Someone had said to me (I thought it was this thread, but now can't find it,) that I should consider letting things go longer than I was comfortable with. Just a little longer. I did take that to heart and it did turn out to be a good thing to do. For them and me. 

It has sure been interesting to have these two and watch the dynamics. They're sure teaching me a lot. I had been getting paranoid too early. They were feeding off of me as well.

They do try to bring me into it... what I mean by that... They'll be getting riled up in the yard. Zoomie time. They start playing. I'm maybe walking around picking up poop. They come *right* in front of me and go at the hard play. Up on back legs, growling, teeth, etc. I swear it is on purpose that they bring it to me sometimes. Are they waiting/wanting me to step in? I don't know, but I go on about my business and let them sort it out. It seems as though once they see I am not going to freak out or really even react, they go back to chasing each other around the yard. 

They are quite vocal when they go at it, teeth flashing and the whole bit, and that was scary for awhile. Not something I've ever dealt with in dogs. (Dogs that play this hard!) Now that I know it is just a normal part of how they play, I've calmed down. 

Work in progress. I'm sure more scuffles will happen but hopefully less of them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> While I understand the other dog "losing" his treat, I would have removed the treat altogether, that is, neither dog got it.


_With your pack that might be a preferable approach. My reason for returning it to da Vinci actually had more to do with Cochise than da Vinci. As with Falkosmom, the ultimate decision is always mine._

My only concern is it causing a rift that will lead to one of the dogs snarking as soon as my back is turned. I see this happen a lot, maybe just my pack and the breed they are, or maybe dogs in general. 

I've thought a lot about this thread and I believe certain breeds are more prone to anger than other breeds. Dachshunds have very short fuses as a whole, and can go from 0-100mph in moments, 100mph being "I'm going to kill you NOW!" 
I am always amazed at how easy going they can be, I mean, making a puppy pile together and chilling, but when things heat up, it happens very quickly. 
I think it has to do with what they were bred to do as much as anything.



> They are quite vocal when they go at it, teeth flashing and the whole bit, and that was scary for awhile. Not something I've ever dealt with in dogs. (Dogs that play this hard!) Now that I know it is just a normal part of how they play, I've calmed down.


I'm glad it's working out on your end! 
I'll try to get a vid some time of my pooches going at it. 
When we had two GSDs, it was quite a show, but nobody ever got hurt.


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