# I really dont think this is going to work... LONG!



## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

Ok as some of you may know I have had constant issues with my GSD pup. So I had a behaviorist come and give an assessment on my pup because she bit me while eating. Also some of you may know Ive had issues with her while outside attacking me and sometimes while I am sitting down in the home (but thats not very often and has really only been outside). She told me to hold her down on her side until she was completely calm and then let her back up, and even when I do this (which it takes Penny like 30+ minuets to calm down enough to let her up) she gets back up and goes right back after me but of course she is then really angry and is even more intense.

So I called the behaviorist and told her what was happening and I also called my trainer (who Ive told her about this several times and all she tells me to do is to "knee" her which has not helped at all again only makes Penny come after me even more with more intensity) Both trainer/behaviorist suggested I send Penny away to be "trained" and of course they both suggested that I go to them.

I really dont think this is going to solve the issue? I mean Penny does not do this to anyone else, no one in my family or strangers just me! So how would sending her away help her? Or me? Sure she will be "trained" but without me training her and without me actually doing the "training" how is she going to stop this behavior towards me? Am I making sense?

I am no longer "messing" with Penny's food and just leaving her be in her crate to eat, after only a few meals she has now started to sit and to stay and wait to be release to eat (this mornings meal she saw me preparing her food and she sat and I told her to stay I put the bowl down she looked at me and I released her to eat and she went to eat, So I think over time her food possession will get better, and again I will remind that I can tell her to drop or leave stuff and I can come and take it be it a raw bone or a chew like a bully stick or a toy whatever and she doesnt have any possession there just she really LOVES her meals. And this behavior only really started, but the whole attacking me thing has been happening since she was a pup, of course I went through the whole landshark phase but this is something different... 

Should I send her away like these "trainers" are saying ( I will also mention that her regular OB trainer is a certified "Master Trainer") or should I speak to another trainer and get a THIRD opinion? Even though Ive tried many different ways to stop this behavior? 

Can anyone suggest what I can do to help? I will try to get a video of her doing this (will be kind of hard but I will try) so you can see exactly what she is doing.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

And I know Im probably getting very annoying with all my posts with problem after problem  I feel like I am totally failing and its not a good feeling!


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## TommyB681 (Oct 19, 2012)

Is it only with food items? or all the time? Abbi was that way with food/raw hide. We stopped giving her raw hide for that reason and I just didn't mess with her food. If that seems to be the only time Penny gets aggressive then subtract the items shes possessive over and let her food be. Hope all goes well moving forward and don't give up on her


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Aside from the resource guarding (food aggression), how do you mean 'attacking'? Our girl was a little landshark until 6 months or so, then slowly got better from there until she grew out of it.

I'd really advise against the alpha rolling, especially with a puppy that young. It will more than likely do more harm than good. The first thing I'd do is make sure I have a toy with or near me at all times, and when she starts getting mouthy put the toy in her mouth to redirect and initiate play.

It would definitely be helpful to see a video, because it is kind of unusual for a 5 month old pup to be aggressive to the point of attacking, especially directing aggression like that towards a pack member/leader.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

mandiah89 said:


> And I know Im probably getting very annoying with all my posts with problem after problem  I feel like I am totally failing and its not a good feeling!


You're not being annoying. You just want what's best for your pup and need help. I personally think that you have a hard pup and I don't know what kind of advice you are getting from your trainer/behaviourist but personally I think it has not been good advice. To lay a pup on it's side and force it down until calm and kneeing pup I think is making things worse.

I feel that it is making Penny loose respect for you as a leader. You said that after you stopped messing with Penny's food she is getting better. I think you need to take a different approach with your pup to gain her respect for you again. I am by no means a trainer, but I think it's time to take a different approach and find another trainer.

I hope things get better for you, I know you love Penny and only want what's best for her.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I hope others chime in but I disagree with the behaviourist's suggestions of holding her down and "kneeing" her. Totally. She is young. I would keep a toy small enough to fit in your jacket pocket, on you or several spread out in every room so you can grab one at any time and when she starts "going after you", make her sit, down, then get the toy, and engage. Your rules, and stop after 5 minutes or so. 

You don't say what kind of exercise she's getting (or forgive me if you have and I've missed it) but she needs some mental at the same time as the physical. I found off leash hiking in the mountains was the best for my dog. The sniffing as well as the technical part of trail elevation gain wore him out and he simply didn't have the energy really to be a rambunctious pup like that. He was a landshark for a long time, and this is how I survived it. Also, walks of a couple miles aren't much physical effort for a pup, but if you use them for intermittent obedience, and allow them to sniff when you say ok, it is mental stimulating too. Not just one walk a day. I would often do both. Now my dog is almost two, and he is a dream. On when I want, able to run 7-10 miles at a shot and backpack and hike the same, but off when I don't want to "do" anything. He is perfect in the house, and can go days without any exercise except a bit of ball/tug in the backyard. 

Also, if you haven't already, raw, beef knuckle bones from the freezer are great outlet for the need to chew. I spread an old sheet down, and monitor the dog and that will buy you some much need relief also. Make her do a bit of obedience first, too. 

Hang in there.

What did they say about the "attacking"? Did the behaviorist see it in action?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Your trainer and behaviorist are not helping you; they are old school. As you know it has been counter productive. By the way, everyone can call themselves a trainer or behaviorist.
Go to this website: Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources and go to "trainer search" for a better trainer in your area. You need a trainer that teaches your pup, not punishes the little land shark. Interview them and go watch them work without taking your pup with you.
Please keep asking questions you may have. The forum can help you.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> I hope others chime in but I disagree with the behaviourist's suggestions of holding her down and "kneeing" her. Totally. She is young. I would keep a toy small enough to fit in your jacket pocket, on you or several spread out in every room so you can grab one at any time and when she starts "going after you", make her sit, down, then get the toy, and engage. Your rules, and stop after 5 minutes or so.
> 
> You don't say what kind of exercise she's getting (or forgive me if you have and I've missed it) but she needs some mental at the same time as the physical. I found off leash hiking in the mountains was the best for my dog. The sniffing as well as the technical part of trail elevation gain wore him out and he simply didn't have the energy really to be a rambunctious pup like that. He was a landshark for a long time, and this is how I survived it. Also, walks of a couple miles aren't much physical effort for a pup, but if you use them for intermittent obedience, and allow them to sniff when you say ok, it is mental stimulating too. Not just one walk a day. I would often do both. Now my dog is almost two, and he is a dream. On when I want, able to run 7-10 miles at a shot and backpack and hike the same, but off when I don't want to "do" anything. He is perfect in the house, and can go days without any exercise except a bit of ball/tug in the backyard.
> 
> ...


We go for a 4.5km walk in the morning and again in the evening this is the time she likes to "attack" me, that and while I am sitting outside while she is doing her buisness, she just has her normal puppy landshark in the house and she stops when I tell her too but outside you can tell its different she is relentless! She has never been much of a chewer, she has NEVER destroyed anything in the house. During our walks we do a little bit of OB but I find the more I do the more aggravated she gets and by the end of the walk she is going for my feet my arms my legs anything her mouth can get, same with when we start our walk she will keep attacking me.

I really didnt think the whole alpha rolling would help with Ive tried shoving a toy in her mouth and engaging in that type of play but she has no interest. Ive tried ignoring her which is hard when you have a 40lb GSD hanging off your with their teeth (it hurts! I have cuts and bruises everywhere) so I felt like why not try it but it just makes it worse so I wont be doing it anymore.

I have a forest with a river about 5 minuet walk from me so I think I might try walking her over there in a little bit and see how she does. 

I appreciate all of your responses, I will also start searching for a new trainer... and I will also mention that her OB training that she is doing now only has two more sessions left (tomorrow and then next tuesday) and then its done, and the whole class is NO treats, NO toys only Praise as a reward which my pup has not being doing so good at, so I think the next class we will join will definitely need to be some sort of like either clicker training or at least be able to use treats as motivation until the treats can be faded out


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I agree. Some dogs are very praise motivated, but some not so much. 

I think you'll find quite a difference between off leash hiking (if it is safe for her there), and walks on a leash. Walking, the dog does not get a chance to stretch its legs. She may be reacting to the fact that she's outside and wants to stretch her legs and run around but can't because of the leash and she's becoming frustrated.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

Even though she heels perfectly and sits when I stop, do you think a prong collar might be helpful to give a SMALL pop if she tries to go after me instead of just tugging on her leash when she has just her plain leather collar on? Or would that be more harmful than helpful? And yes I do know how to properly fit a prong and how to properly use it as I had used it with my last GSD and then gave it to someone who needed it when I no longer needed it for Diesel... I just dont want to cause any more harm to my pup and I want her to start to trust/respect me


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Surprised*

Both my GSDs "attacked" me regularly during their landshark days but it went away when they didn't get what the wanted, me to play with them in rough games of chase.

I even got knocked down once when off-leashing my MAX when the charged me and hit my right thigh with a full-speed body blow. Only later did I learn that my Son had taught the dog to do this sort of rough play when he visited infrequently from college.

There's nothing you're describing outside of the food aggression that I find unusual for an animal with a lot of unspent energy. 

When the dog is hungry, perhaps before breakfast and then again before dinner exercise your dog. Get a flirt poll and a kong. Use the flirt pole for at least 30 minutes (I usually go for 45 as Zeus is older now and more proficient at the pole) and then at least 15 to 20 minutes on Kong retrieve. Someone here taught me to use two kongs to keep the action going (throw one, command retrieve or fetch, let the dog fetch and drop the kong and at the same moment of release of the first kong throw the second in the opposite direction).

Work the dog prior to your walk to the point that she is obviously considerably tired. Modestly water the dog. Then walk the dog and set a FAST pace.

WALK HER USING TREATS (she seems food motivated and remember she'll be tired and hungry). Regularly interrupt the walks to reinforce obedience like sit, stay, down, and come. Treat when she succeeds and occasionally when she's just walking close to heel like you want. 

Use a training collar for the first few weeks, at least, for corrections, not punishment. I WOULD NOT USE A PRONG COLLAR AT ALL. You may not need to use it after she's about six months at all. Just put the collar on her and dead-ring it to the flat collar so she still feels the weight of it. 

While the collar is alive (not dead-ringed to the flat collar) use it to correct with sharp but not forceful snaps of the leash when she isn't walking like you would prefer, bring her to the position you like for her walk and immediately treat. Use the free end of the leash as a helicopter or fan blade in front of yourself or the dog if she pulls ahead of you.

But If she "attacks" you by coming "up the leash" use the leash and the collar to, well, lift her front feet off the ground and keep her off of you. But do not literally hang her. Take care not to do harm but do what you must to make her uncomfortable EACH AND EVERY TIME SHE COMES UP THE LEASH AT YOU.

I'll bet in the beginning you need only do this two or three times each walk to get her to understand that she's violating a serious limit with you when she comes up the leash. In a week or two, I think her undesirable attacks will disappear.

LF


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Am I the only one that uses a muzzle? http://www.morrco.com/itpoldogmuz.html

I'm sorry that I don't know all the details about the story, like age of dog,and exactly what is going on. It seems like he's under 1 year old? 

First of all, stop kneeing your dog, and pinning him. I haven't heard of one case where this was a permanent solution to anything. 

Then, hand feed him for a week. *All* his food comes from your hand. I know it's annoyingly slow, but all my puppies get this treatment when they come to live with me. 

No petting, or cuddling. Make everything business. 

Take him for good long walks and make him wear a muzzle. They try to take it off at first, but I find this brand will stay on when my male uses both feet to try to pull it off. And it's cheap. Italian Basket Dog Muzzles If you have an attachment for your bicycle, you might start very short bike runs (wearing a muzzle). He's a puppy, so he shouldn't go bicycling yet, but some short training rides would be good. 

If you want to play obedience games with him and he starts biting you, put him away to end the session.

He really sounds like a handful. Sorry, you got something you weren't expecting, but it happens.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I don't think any of my dogs would respond well to pinning them down, specially Lakota. I would not recommend getting physical like that. I think your best option is to post video of what she's doing otherwise everyone is just going to be guessing at the behavior.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't know why any trainer is still advocating pinning. Think about it - if you pin your dog down, what's the first thing that it's going to want to do? Get back up! So you're actively encouraging a struggle?! Master trainer? Huh. 

I agree 100% with the off-leash hikes, and getting rid of the excess energy. I'm sure you'll see a *huge* improvement with that. As well as helping with your bonding.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Remember that this forum is full of opinions, mine included. Most of us are not trainers, other than our own dogs.
So while the forum can be very useful it can offer too many opinions at times.

I would find a trainer that you believe in and stick with that advice alone for a while. 

Too many cooks spoil the broth and will have you second guessing everything. IMO


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## Crkwolf (Feb 25, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> ...Please keep asking questions you may have. The forum can help you.


And I'd like to add, these questions may help other forum members who may be too shy to ask these questions.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

Well I just got back from our first ever hike together, we were gone for almost 2 hours! And she LOVED running in the forest and sniffing everything off leash. She even went "swimming" for the first time! lol here are some picture and two links to youtube to the videos I took, sorry for the less than stellar quality they were taken on my blackberry


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Did she attack you on your walk or was she completely happy and content?


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

llombardo said:


> Did she attack you on your walk or was she completely happy and content?


She was very content, she did start to bite my feet when we started up the driveway but it was more of her just grabbing my shoelace that was untied, she has been passed out for about hour now lol I will take her out again tomorrow and I will try to do it everyday if Im not to busy with work but I do have the next 6 days off


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

Videos and comments support the hypothesis that she's very high energy or that her energy is not being sapped before the attacks.

LF


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Just curious, what do you do when she bites your feet? 

Another option if you didn't want to use the prong is to get a head collar so you can steer her muzzle gently away from your legs. Pairing the face turning away from your body with a click, treat will really help her understand keeping her snout away from your legs is what you want

I'm glad your hike went well  I know it's probably just Penny having pent up energy but my puppy grabs my legs when the opposite happens. If she doesn't get a really good nap in her crate she gets overtired, a nap in the living room doesnt do it because there are too many distractions.


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

I would also try to find a trainer that knows and understands gsds. Treat training and clicker training our great because most dogs work for food. The good runs and some clicker training will help your bond and work your dogs mind too


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm glad you both had fun today - great news! Now, make a commitment to Penny and do the same thing for the next 6 days, since you're free, and then report back with an update. I'm certain that we'll all be thrilled with the results.


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## jessac (Oct 29, 2012)

I'm glad the off leash hiking went well. It does seem like frustration and not being aggressive. My pup walks a couple miles with me in the morning, but it seems to basically warm up his muscles as opposed to wearing him out. He comes home and then we play fetch to really get him running. I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but go new places when you hike, it helps wears them out too as it's all new.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I tend to agree that you have a puppy who needs to burn off some energy. 

I have to ask, in the first video when you called her and she returned, did you 'treat' her? I couldn't really tell. Just a suggestion, always carry FOOD on you, the hiking is a great opportunity to recall her, TREAT her, PRAISE her..It doesn't have to be 'constant',,throw it in there during the day, hiking, whatever..

I've read some of your other threads, and I think your trying to hard to obed train this puppy, who's probably bored with 'constant' training..Let her be a puppy, doesnt' mean she has to be unruly, but throw some random obed in your FUN time, 

If she's food motivated, find something REALLY yummy only use on your hikes/ quick obed training, something of high value, that will give her an incentive to bond with you, keeping in mind that hiking, taking her different places, is also going to wear her out..

ok done babbling


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I agree with Jakoda. 

Regarding the original thread topic, I would never send away a dog to be trained by someone else. Any one can learn to train dogs. A pup like this is unruly and is a test but some day you need to turn it around and stop being a victim to a 4-5 month old pup. Let the pup be a victim some time. Give it a slap of a stick any time it tries to bite you and see if it still so brave.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

MadLab said:


> I agree with Jakoda.
> 
> Regarding the original thread topic, I would never send away a dog to be trained by someone else. Any one can learn to train dogs.* A pup like this is unruly and is a test but some day you need to turn it around and stop being a victim to a 4-5 month old pup. Let the pup be a victim some time. Give it a slap of a stick any time it tries to bite you and see if it still so brave*.


Your kidding right?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)




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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I tend to agree that you have a puppy who needs to burn off some energy.
> 
> I have to ask, in the first video when you called her and she returned, did you 'treat' her? I couldn't really tell. Just a suggestion, always carry FOOD on you, the hiking is a great opportunity to recall her, TREAT her, PRAISE her..It doesn't have to be 'constant',,throw it in there during the day, hiking, whatever..
> 
> ...


Yes I did give her a treat  and I did everytime I recalled her mind you I didnt actually give her recall command I just told her to hold up but she still stopped and came back which I treated for even though it wasnt her actual recall command 

And yes Im going to lay off such strict OB with her right now and just let her have some fun but of course still throw in the OB here in there and I did do a few sits and platz while... there are quite a few places around where I can take her hiking as well as going to the Bay Of Fundy to explore the shore... And I will try to take her out once a day to do stuff like this


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Sorry I'm not kidding. A stick might be a bit severe but so is a dog biting you. I will give a dog a slap on the nose with my hand if it is intent on nipping me and biting. Any ways, you have to take the upper hand and if a pup bits you until you are distressed then you have a problem that may get worse as the pup ages. So I'm saying a little punishment will help you re-establish your authority on the pup. I'm sorry if that goes against your ideas of positive reinforcment or what ever methods you use but you are dealing with a dangerous animal if it gets no consequences for biting you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, you get all kinds of advice on an internet forum. 

When she "attacks" does she jump up on you? It does sound like a lot of puppy energy. I would NOT strike her. And the pinning, I think she probably sees that as horse-play, wrestling. You need to stop the game, if you do not like the game. 

Only praise or treat or pet her when there are 4 on the floor. And the moment she starts acting like a nutcase, try to do a quick obedience drill with her, dig in your pocket for a treat, SIT, good girl, down, yes. Come front, yes small treat. Finish. Then walk forward. 

Try to teach her the SETTLE command. And used OFF when she jumps on you. Do not engage at all with your hands. Turn your body away. Use Eh, OFF! I have a three year old that I hope will get over herself soon. Some of it is exhuberance, and some is energy, and maybe some insecurity. 

Build her confidence. Teach her to go hupp on things. Teach her to OFF, and treat when four are on the floor. Then when she jumps up, use the OFF command. With a treat, teach her the Gentle command. And when she is associating Gentle with taking a treat very gentle out of your fingers, then tell her Gentle with my feet. 

I think I would avoid physical corrections.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

Yes she jumps up and grabs my arms but her favorite is grabbing at my leg/feet but then she will start to jump and grab for my arms or bites my stomach... Im not doing the whole pinning thing anymore so no worries there... And she does know the "Enough" command while in the house and while on our walks I stop instantly and try not to move and say NO,ENOUGH! very rarely does this work but it does sometimes. I am starting to change our training to a lot of treats and praise and Im thinking of getting the clicker out that I bought and never used. And no I will NOT be striking my dog, that is not going to help build the bond with my pup and will only make her distrust me


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

all of us here are here to learn about the GSD and to help
each other with problems. the only way the forum can help 
you is by you posting. it seems like your doing all of the right
things to be a successful. every now and then a dog is going
to come along that can't be helped no matter what a person does
and when that happens there's nothing a person can do except
manage the situation. good luck.



mandiah89 said:


> And I know Im probably getting very annoying with all my posts with problem after problem  I feel like I am totally failing and its not a good feeling!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> And no I will NOT be striking my dog, that is not going to help build the bond with my pup and will only make her distrust me


It's funny but a dog actually respects you more when you yield a bit of power. Then when you say No and the dog doesn't listen you have a consequence to the dogs action. The dog will learn very quickly how to avoid corrections with good behavior.

It's better in my opinion to have some discipline rather than getting stressed out by a dog or puppy. 

I won't comment anymore on this thread as you have great advice from others and have heard my opinion.

Good Luck with it.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

MadLab said:


> It's funny but a dog actually respects you more when you yield a bit of power. Then when you say No and the dog doesn't listen you have a consequence to the dogs action. The dog will learn very quickly how to avoid corrections with good behavior.
> 
> It's better in my opinion to have some discipline rather than getting stressed out by a dog or puppy.
> 
> ...


Oh, now I remember you. You are the person who does not have a German Shepherd. You have Lab mixes.
In my opinion, not posting that you do not own a German Shepherd and giving advice like this to people who have German Shepherds is downright dangerous.

Somebody who is unaware could take your advice and end up having his face ripped off.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Oh, now I remember you. You are the person who does not have a German Shepherd. You have Lab mixes.
> In my opinion, not posting that you do not own a German Shepherd and giving advice like this to people who have German Shepherds is downright dangerous.
> 
> Somebody who is unaware could take your advice and end up having his face ripped off.


I totally agree... not even just for GSD's but any dog it could be dangerous no matter what the breed it


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh, Labs need to be beaten to behave? Wow, I did not know they needed to learn to avoid corrections in order give good behavior. 

GSDs actually do better when we teach them what we want them to do and then praise them for doing it. Teaching them that we will beat them for every behavior we do not like will likely make them hand-shy, confused and aggressive.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it doesn't matter what kind of dog you have. MadLab is off base.



MadLab said:


> It's funny but a dog actually respects you more when you yield a bit of power. Then when you say No and the dog doesn't listen you have a consequence to the dogs action. The dog will learn very quickly how to avoid corrections with good behavior.
> 
> It's better in my opinion to have some discipline rather than getting stressed out by a dog or puppy.
> 
> ...





Sunflowers said:


> Oh, now I remember you. You are the person who does not have a German Shepherd. You have Lab mixes.
> In my opinion, not posting that you do not own a German Shepherd and giving advice like this to people who have German Shepherds is downright dangerous.
> 
> Somebody who is unaware could take your advice and end up having his face ripped off.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> it doesn't matter what kind of dog you have. MadLab is off base.


Yes, he is off base. But I firmly believe that a German Shepherd could be more aggressive and do more damage if beaten.
Not to say that some wouldn't take it. But beat the wrong dog, any breed of dog, as a matter fact, and you would be asking for it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MadLab said:


> ...but you are dealing with a dangerous animal if it gets no consequences for biting you.


Do you consider a 5 month old puppy a "dangerous animal"? Because that's what Penny is.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I have a bull mastiff mix and a boxer mix for all your information. Honestly they love a bit of discipline. But i am a totally softy with them but they know who there master is very well.

Really, you guys wouldn't have such a great breed if it wasn't for the original methods of dog selection and training which did include negative reinforcement as well as positive reinforcement. Only the toughest dogs would survive back in Max Von Stephanitz time and they went on the spawn what ye have today if your lucky. So you can totally disagree with me but you can't deny the history of your breed.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

mandiah89 said:


> ... the whole class is NO treats, NO toys only Praise as a reward which my pup has not being doing so good at, so I think the next class we will join will definitely need to be some sort of like either clicker training or at least be able to use treats as motivation until the treats can be faded out


I don't get this kind of class at all, especially for a puppy. If you've got a dog who eschews treats and isn't that toy motivated but will do backflips for praise, great. Use just praise as your reward. But to not exploit whatever most motivates YOUR dog in favor of some old school one size fits all training ideology, is well, just silly.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I'm sorry if that goes against your ideas of positive reinforcement or what ever methods you use but you are dealing with a dangerous animal if it gets no consequences for biting you.





> Do you consider a 5 month old puppy a "dangerous animal"? Because that's what Penny is.


Well now it is learning that it is ok to bite a human so yea it is in the early stages of becoming a dangerous animal.

Would you consider it dangerous if it bit a child???


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MadLab said:


> It's funny but a dog actually respects you more when you yield a bit of power. Then when you say No and the dog doesn't listen you have a consequence to the dogs action.


Yes, but. Your premise is apparently that yielding power, having consequences for the dog's actions, and imposing discipline all must involve physical corrections such as whacking them with a stick. That's simply not true. 

My dogs learn very early that there are consequences for non-compliance, and most of the time they get that message loud and clear without me so much as touching them. Often they're off leash at the time, so no collar corrections either. Instead, I "yield power" by controlling the resources, as a pack leader would do. I impose discipline by creating rules and structure in their day to day lives, and I show them that it's in their best interest to make good choices. They do what I want and they get what they want. I'm not anti-correction, but the more I can shape the behavior I do want, the less I have to correct the behavior I don't want.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MadLab said:


> Well now it is learning that it is ok to bite a human so yea it is in the early stages of becoming a dangerous animal



It will become a dangerous animal if it is confused, beaten, afraid. Discipline is good, but it does not have to be physical. In fact, our dogs would be a lot better behaved in general if we are a little more disciplined in our approach to raising them. If we do not fly off the handle, if we do not yell at them for being puppies, if we do not let them screw up and then clobber them for it. If we have a good schedule that provides for exerise, training, and play. 

So yes our dogs love them some discipline, and they respect discipline. They respect people who project discipline in themselves.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

mandiah89 said:


> Should I send her away like these "trainers" are saying ( I will also mention that her regular OB trainer is a certified "Master Trainer") or should I speak to another trainer and get a THIRD opinion? Even though Ive tried many different ways to stop this behavior?
> 
> Can anyone suggest what I can do to help? I will try to get a video of her doing this (will be kind of hard but I will try) so you can see exactly what she is doing.


Speak to a 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on until you find the right trainer for you and your pup. Ask question after question, and check references with past and current clients. A good trainer that is the right fit for you and your pup is worth their weight in gold.

From reading the rest of the thread, you seem to have found how to manage your pup's energy, I would still find a different trainer that doesn't advocate pinning a pup.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

MadLab said:


> I have a bull mastiff mix and a boxer mix for all your information. Honestly they love a bit of discipline. But i am a totally softy with them but they know who there master is very well..


I was going by what you posted when you joined the forum.



MadLab said:


> How welcome are people with other kinds of dogs here?
> 
> I know its a GSD forum but do you accept folks with other breeds of dogs/ crossbreeds etc.
> 
> ...


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> It will become a dangerous animal if it is confused, beaten, afraid.


A dog who bites it's owner is full of confidence already unless it's fear aggression which isn't the case here.

So there is no fear of that confident dog turning into a confused, beaten afraid dog because it gets a slap when attempting to bite it's owner. You are doing the dog a favor by giving it a slap. You are saying 'I don't like that'. You are claiming back you space and teaching a dog about it's boundaries.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I was going by what you posted when you joined the forum.


Yea they are both still Lab mixes lol. I think pretty highly of labs. They are great dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MadLab said:


> A dog who bites it's owner is full of confidence already unless it's fear aggression which isn't the case here.
> 
> So there is no fear of that confident dog turning into a confused, beaten afraid dog because it gets a slap when attempting to bite it's owner. You are doing the dog a favor by giving it a slap. You are saying 'I don't like that'. You are claiming back you space and teaching a dog about it's boundaries.


You win. Go beat your dog. Gain yourself some respect. Claim back your space. 

Maybe if I go home and slap Babs a few times, she will let me have one of my pillows tonight.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Sorry Selser i don't need to actually reclaim my space as no dogs are biting me but if a dog bites you some day you might think different.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Cassidies Mom said


> My dogs learn very early that there are consequences for non-compliance, and most of the time they get that message loud and clear without me so much as touching them. Often they're off leash at the time, so no collar corrections either. Instead, I "yield power" by controlling the resources, as a pack leader would do. I impose discipline by creating rules and structure in their day to day lives, and I show them that it's in their best interest to make good choices. They do what I want and they get what they want. I'm not anti-correction, but the more I can shape the behavior I do want, the less I have to correct the behavior I don't want.


I totally agree with you.



> Your premise is apparently that yielding power, having consequences for the dog's actions, and imposing discipline all must involve physical corrections such as whacking them with a stick. That's simply not true.


. 

I was training my friends dog last year.The dog had spent a year of its live in a back yard with very little human company and no dog socialization. Straight away when i tried to play with it, it started to try to nip me. It really didn't understand how to play and behave. So i waved my hands around more and more encouraging the dog to bite me more and then after about 5-6 nips held it be under the mouth and gave it a slap on the nose while saying no. Straight away the dog understood no means no or it stopped biting me. This dog doesn't really respond to others but i have thought it to heel, retrieve, a recall. So my slapping it didn't effect our relationship at all. The dog loves me.

My own dog wanted to fight other males at around 2 years of age. Simply he got slapped if he showed any aggression and has never got in a fight since and has learned to be very well behaved with other male dogs. He won't submit to them but knows how to show his power with out starting a fight. 

Another thing he loves is running in any water he sees. He started to jump into the water in places i found dangerous. Again i pulled out the slap and cured that too. He will simply walk by those places and ignore the entrance points into the water. A slap is not major punishment. It is a swift message that you don't like something.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MadLab said:


> Sorry Selser i don't need to actually reclaim my space as no dogs are biting me but if a dog bites you some day you might think different.


The name is Selzer. Thanks. I am pretty particular to my name, ok. 

Uhg, she bit me! she bit me! 



Guess I better reclaim my space with a slap.

This little bugerbuttkin will be 7 in August. Time flies. And I still have ten fingers and ten toes. Wow! Amazing.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

How old is the pup in the photo? 5 weeks?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

MadLab said:


> Cassidies Mom said
> I totally agree with you.
> 
> .
> ...


Okay, I'm convinced. From now on, I'll use the slapping method of training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That is Heidi, she will be seven years in August. At the time of the photo she was about 3 weeks.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I don't look at puppy biting as attacking. I saw it more as playing. We did put a stop to it fast though. Playing or not I didn't want a large puppy biting at me. We didn't have to slap or hit him to get him to stop. We did have a really good trainer who gave me advice on how to stop the biting.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I've been reading this thread, and it's gotten ridiculous with the slapping advice.

MadLab, it's pretty obvious that your "slap" method isn't going to fly here. Aside from the fact that there are _much_ better methods for training dogs, you apparently haven't had a dog come back at you after a "slap". But I guess that would warrant another slap, and well, one slap leads to another, and... What are you going to do when a shepherd decides they've had _enough_? That question doesn't require an answer, btw. 

Love that mean ol' puppy, Selzer!!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

From the op


> she bit me while eating. Ive had issues with her while outside *attacking me* and sometimes while I am sitting down in the home .... she is then *really angry and is even more intense*.


Just to remind people this is not a normal pup nipping at your sleeves or shoe laces.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

"Attacking" and intensity are in the eye of the beholder. 


This is not meant disrespectfully towards the OP. But I daresay, experience with the breed can come into play. People who have had lots of puppies, many GSD's, years in the breed -- even just regular owners, but with all that--will often see a situation differently than say, a first-time owner.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

A puppy that clearly lacks confidence, that has been pinned down when it's in full landshark mode, and has been harassed while eating, does NOT need to be slapped. 

EVER.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have German Show Line puppies. And none of them are really that bitey. I had one bugger who would nip my nose when I picked him up, but I sold him at 14 weeks old, and I told his owners he bites, and they never complained about him. 

One of Jenna's pups at 8 or 10 weeks nipped the lady in the finger that came to look at them and she picked that one. That was almost four years ago and she never complained about him. And I offered her first aid in the house as that bugger broke the skin. 

But for the most part, they really do not nip or bite much, not me. And I have had kids come in, and they really do not chew on them either -- as puppies. But a lot of people here talk about the landshark phase, and having scars on their arms and hands from the little gators. And it does seem to be pretty common to have some pretty good nippers in some of the lines.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

RocketDog said:


> "Attacking" and intensity are in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> 
> This is not meant disrespectfully towards the OP. But I daresay, experience with the breed can come into play. People who have had lots of puppies, many GSD's, years in the breed -- even just regular owners, but with all that--will often see a situation differently than say, a first-time owner.


Exactly!! It's all relative.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

As for the OP, I commend you for changing some of the things you've been trying with your puppy. 

Take a deep breath, and start over.


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

I really wouldnt want to send a pup away to be trained, like you said, I think we'd both need to go thru it together! Glad your walk turned out good! Hang in there, hopefully it will phase out! Don't have too much advice more than the redirecting!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

If I posted pictures of what my legs look like right now, I think many people would think I have the most aggressive little pup ever. Black and blue and bites all over. In reality I have a high drive young pup that has an amazing firm full mouth grip. That just need to be taught direction, haha.

It hurts, and it's a pain, but sometimes my trainer and I just sit back and laugh. Forget schutzhund, I totally have a ring dog in the making  In all honesty, we have this set month at the moment, attempting to redirect and bore him with playing with my legs, because since he will hopefully be a competition dog we don't necessarily want him to think biting legs is bad. He just needs to know when it's appropriate (sleeve vs. bare). If he will not stop and it gets worse, then we'll have to look at corrections and other means to stop it. 

I don't think I would label a puppy doing these antics as necessarily acting aggressive and coming after me. I think there is a very large difference between aggression and play that has never properly been managed and redirected. I had a puppy with EXTREME fear aggression. Hackles raised, growling and lunging at others. 

I think others are right, obviously trainers so far, no matter how good, haven't been able to manage this situation. So probably time to look for someone new. I also don't always like board and trains with these kinds of problems. Because it's not just something that needs to be "fixed" with this puppy. It is her temperament and drives combined with your ability to handle and train. Berlin being a working line is a whole different GSD world to me. If I sent him off for a month, he might come back stellar but I STILL wouldn't know how to handle or train HIM, and eventually it would be back to square one.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

I am not a trainer but whenever my dog would try to bite me or try to snap at the cat for eating her kibble I wold put her on time out. It worked magic...pinning down did nothing....its only a temprorary hostage that just makes the dog more angry...

Honestely If I were you with as hard as you tried to fix this yourself I would send her away for trainig... if she is huritng you and she is already 5 months and you personally can't manage her, someone else needs to step in, maybe different envirment will help her. Good luck..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To be honest I sort of agree with MadLab, maybe the concept more than the execution. I won't hit a puppy with a stick but I don't allow puppies to be attacking my hands, legs, and feet just because they are landshark puppies. I've had my own GSD puppies plus raised two others (and I've had foster puppies of other breeds) and never have I allowed puppies to work themselves up into that state. I know what the OP means, it's not a true "attack" but the dog gets all hyper and worked up and thinks s/he can just jump and bite and tug at whatever s/he wants. I've seen this many times with friends and their dogs but don't allow it in my house. We have plenty of toys for that! I have a 10 week old puppy right now and I play tug with him for probably two HOURS a day (along with all the other exercise, training, and free time in the house and yard with other dogs he is getting) but I don't permit puppies of any age to use me as their chew toy, especially not out on walks. You can easily correct and redirect young dogs fairly and it doesn't involve beating a dog into submission. I have no problems showing a young dog what is right and what is wrong (I don't just ignore naughty behaviors or behaviors that can be painful and dangerous once the dog is larger).


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

julie87 said:


> I am not a trainer but whenever my dog would try to bite me or try to snap at the cat for eating her kibble I wold put her on time out. It worked magic...pinning down did nothing....its only a temprorary hostage that just makes the dog more angry...


That is exactly what I did with Gunner. Around the 4 month mark he became a menace. 
He would go into barking fits AT me and jump on me and bite. He'd do it even while playing in the yard. He'd stop playing and circle me barking and start jumping at me. And nothing stopped it.
So I took a friends advice and either ignored him and left the room or if it was outside, walk away and end playtime and then straight to his crate for a time out.
In the house I had him gated within two rooms. When he acted up, I removed myself from the room (and out of sight) until he calmed.
He quickly learned that his actions had consequences. His favorite person (me ) would leave. And that's not what he wanted.
When he was calm he had me. When he was acting out, he didn't.

Forgot to add. This method worked and the habit was broken within a few weeks. He did it less and less in that time, then it had completely stopped.
This is him at 4-5 months in the barking/nipping phase. I didn't do anything to stop it because I wanted to document it. It went on for over 6 minutes (there's a part two).


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

GSDGunner said:


> That is exactly what I did with Gunner. Around the 4 month mark he became a menace.
> He would go into barking fits AT me and jump on me and bite. He'd do it even while playing in the yard. He'd stop playing and circle me barking and start jumping at me. And nothing stopped it.
> So I took a friends advice and either ignored him and left the room or if it was outside, walk away and end playtime and then straight to his crate for a time out.
> In the house I had him gated within two rooms. When he acted up, I removed myself from the room (and out of sight) until he calmed.
> ...


Thats all fine and dandy but she does not do this in the house or in the yard, this is happening while on walks, I cant just tie her to a pole or a tree and walk away, there is no escaping it, its not a child where you can verbally threaten "if you dont stop this you'll be in a time out when we get home!" its just not possible.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Liesje said:


> To be honest I sort of agree with MadLab, maybe the concept more than the execution. I won't hit a puppy with a stick but I don't allow puppies to be attacking my hands, legs, and feet just because they are landshark puppies.


I don't either, but for me the execution is what I have a problem with. As you said, you don't need to hit a puppy with a stick to accomplish the same thing.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

MadLab said:


> From the op
> 
> Just to remind people this is not a normal pup nipping at your sleeves or shoe laces.


I have an abbynormal pup, she loves to bite feet. When she was 8 weeks old she was always doing that, however she never ever left a single mark from teeth or claws. I put an end to her game pretty guickly, mostly redirection. Lakota is fairly shy, less confident 3yr old. A while ago she started to play her foot game again, since she never gets playful with me the way she does with the other dogs I decided to go along with her game. I had my doubts and wondered If it was a bad thing. A year later, I have no regrets about our game and I like that she thinks I am fun to play with. I know she learned bite inhabition from my other dogs but I can imagine she would have been a lot harder on me
without them.
The pup should have clear boundries with bite inhabition and a solid command like "out" to let go of an object, like a foot by now. Taking a dog for a walk doesn't really do anything to burn off energy.
I used to run my dog with my horse and when we got back home he'd want to play ball.
Maybe the word "attack" is incorrect.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

Why don't u seriously consider to send her away? I honestly think she has a lot of work to be done. My step dad had a professionally trained GSD he said it was the best thing for that dog and he also said there is no way he would have trained him the dog he became... 

Unless time out didn't work (for me it works magic for all sorts of misbehavings not just biting) I Would send her,time flies so fast she would be back before you know it, and you won't have to feel frustrated trying to train her

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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

julie87 said:


> Why don't u seriously consider to send her away? I honestly think she has a lot of work to be done. My step dad had a professionally trained GSD he said it was the best thing for that dog and he also said there is no way he would have trained him the dog he became...
> 
> Unless time out didn't work (for me it works magic for all sorts of misbehavings not just biting) I Would send her,time flies so fast she would be back before you know it, and you won't have to feel frustrated trying to train her
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Because training is the best way to build and maintain a bond with your dog... also I do not see why sending her away to be trained is going to help a behavioral issues she is displaying towards me only, never does it to strangers, friends or family. This is something I need to work on with my dog, and Im sure over time our bond will be stronger than if I send her off to be trained... Her OB training is going extremely well and she loves to work so I would be sending her away to train something out of her that she doesnt display unless its with me and only on walks...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

mandiah89 said:


> Thats all fine and dandy but she does not do this in the house or in the yard, this is happening while on walks, I cant just tie her to a pole or a tree and walk away, there is no escaping it, its not a child where you can verbally threaten "if you dont stop this you'll be in a time out when we get home!" its just not possible.


When you walk her put her on a 6' leash. In the beginning of the walk do nothing but walk as fast as she can keep up. If you have her on your left side, hold the leash in your right hand. Run the leash through your left hand. When she goes for your feet, raise your left hand correcting her and putting her back where she should be at the same time. Do not stop to correct her. Do not slow down, continue to walk briskly. 

When you correct her (for biting your feet) use one word or phrase. I'd use 'leave it' to tell her the thing she is starting to focus on is not the thing you want her to focus on. Say it at the exact same time you move her from your feet. 

Remember, walking briskly is going to make her engage in the WALK and not in eating your legs and feet. She'll begin to tire out and you'll be able to enjoy the walk.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

Well I didn't read the whole thread but the name of your thread is "I don't think it's going to work" so I just assumed you tried everything in your power... Good luck 


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

mandiah89 said:


> *Thats all fine and dandy* but she does not do this in the house or in the yard, this is happening while on walks, I cant just tie her to a pole or a tree and walk away, there is no escaping it, its not a child where you can verbally threaten "if you dont stop this you'll be in a time out when we get home!" its just not possible.


Was just trying to help. Won't happen again.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

GSDGunner said:


> Was just trying to help. Won't happen again.


Thats wasnt meant in a rude manner I was just stating that It does not happen at home so what you suggested wouldn't really help in my situation as it doesnt apply lol


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