# 15 Week Puppy Dominance over 9 Year Old?



## hoplite6 (Jun 18, 2012)

So....recently my young pup has been exhibiting some weird behavior. Every time my adult GSD Riley will get a toy and lie down to enjoy some chewing, Baron will walk over and slowly step over Riley's head/face until his genitals are literally on top of his head and then just stand there and look at him. The whole time this is going on, Riley growls like he's about to literally bite Baron in two, but that's it. Baron is completely oblivious to the vocal aggression from Riley during this and then will often lie down next to Riley and lick his face. I have never seen anything like this before. At fifteen weeks, I wouldn't think this is some type of dominance behavior, but just don't know. Has anyone else seen anything like this? Pic attached.


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## Aalshab (Oct 7, 2012)

Dominance is really a trait, or an instinct if you will, it's built in dogs they either are dominant or not. In wolf packs alphas are born rather than made, it does seem like dominance and is perfectly natural at that


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't know what it is, but I am literally sitting at a traffic light laughing


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That looks pretty normal to me. Puppies. When he gets older the "puppy pass" will expire and the old dog may put him in his place; he is just tolerating his antics now.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Aalshab said:


> Dominance is really a trait, or an instinct if you will, it's built in dogs they either are dominant or not. In wolf packs alphas are born rather than made, it does seem like dominance and is perfectly natural at that
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


No. Dominance is a behavior, not a trait. Some dogs wll show dominance in certain situations and not others. Dominance?Making Sense of the Nonsense | Roger Abrantes

OP, puppies try out all different kinds of behaviors to see what works and what doesn't. Your older dog is being very tolerant but as others have said, he might lose that puppy pass soon and be corrected for it or your older dog will simply accept it.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

My little mutt boy will get like this on occasion but it's 100% because he wants to get the other dogs attention. He is the farthest thing from an actual dominant dog but he'll start to mount them or kind of posture in a playful way (looks like your pup in the picture) to his buddies and then as soon as they react, he'll flop to the ground and wiggle around trying to get them to play. Or he'll take off with the zoomies hoping they'll chase him. Is it possible that he's just trying to get Riley to interact with him? He only does this when my other dogs are ignoring him and he wants to play with them


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

If that is dominance, your pup has some stones, LOL! My Pug has a 'dominant' personality, and so does Grim. I'm just waiting.... LOL!  I hope that your older shepherd isn't over the top if he decides to put the pup "in his place"... or that they don't both dig in their heels.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If it was my puppy I'd leash him and correct him for doing it.
It's rude, dominance or not.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> If it was my puppy I'd leash him and correct him for doing it.
> It's rude, dominance or not.


Why correct it? It would be rude for humans, but normal for dogs, IMO. I'm interested, though, to know more about why you'd correct it or think it's abnormal.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Jag said:


> Why correct it? It would be rude for humans, but normal for dogs, IMO. I'm interested, though, to know more about why you'd correct it or think it's abnormal.


I think any behaviour that is going to get a negative response from most dogs - and I think this qualifies - would be considered rude/pushy/obnoxious in the dog world. Otherwise, why so many comments about the older dog eventually putting the younger in his place?

BTW, I say this as an owner of a dog that is reactive to obnoxious dogs, yet can be remarkably obnoxious himself. Oh, irony ... Mine gets corrected if he's doing something likely to elicit a lifted lip, let alone start a squabble.

ETA: He gets corrected because the last thing either of us needs is for him to start dog fights everywhere he goes. Why not help him learn polite behaviour without getting either of us bit?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

What if the older dog submits, though? I guess I'm confused on how to let the pack order take place if you step in at that point. I don't allow things to go past a certain point (no one wants one of their dogs hurt) but somehow they have to establish their order, right? I agree that not allowing this outside of your pack at home is a different thing. That can definitely start a fight. Also, constantly picking on another dog (inside the pack) isn't allowed. Simply standing over another dog's head though? Or is it the thought that the older dog is always supposed to be 'higher' than the younger dogs? 

I've never had any serious (real) fights in my pack. I have had one dog tell another to 'back off' on a few occasions, though. All dogs involved were relatively close in age, no pups involved. It was done before I could even yell 'enough'. So, I've always ended up with a pack that 'worked it out'. Different dogs at different times, though... never just the same dog. So it's likely at some point dogs in a pack will have something to say to each other. As long as there's no 'real' fighting involved (no biting, etc) then I didn't get up in arms about it. Grim tries to mount Layla all the time. Sometimes she appears to invite it, sometimes not. He wouldn't dare do this to our old mutt, who seems to have little tolerance for puppy antics. He understands this because of the signals she's sent him. If I interfered, he'd likely not realize she was 'off limits'. My pug has also gotten fed up a few times and told Grim to 'back off'. He's told her the same thing on a number of occasions. Again, I feel if I stepped in each time I thought one was being 'rude' to the other... how would they be able to communicate and know where to draw the line? 
Maybe my line of thinking is off, or maybe it's just a different school of thought, I don't know. It is an interesting discussion, though, and I think one that needs more looking at. Pack dynamics, IMO are interesting. I know from introducing previous pups that sometimes the older dogs submit, and the pup ends up being the more dominant personality.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Otherwise, why so many comments about the older dog eventually putting the younger in his place?


Yes, this. Plus you need to be a good leader and what _you_ say, goes.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

My puppy did the exact same thing with both my 2 year old male gsd and my 10 year old female Aussie. My Aussie would make A LOT of noise (sounds similar to your dog) but my other gsd pretty much submitted right away. I didn't really correct the behavior but I did redirect him to more appropriate behaviors. Especially as he got older redirection was (and still is) the best option *for my dog* Correcting the dominant behaviors tended to make him a little more aggressive towards the other dogs. If this is new he could just be experimenting and he may just simply outgrow it.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Jag said:


> What if the older dog submits, though? I guess I'm confused on how to let the pack order take place if you step in at that point.
> 
> A dog does not have to be obnoxious to establish his/her place. Allowing them to be obnoxious at home means that they might choose to be obnoxious with stranger dogs, because they don't know any better. What if your puppy gets in the face of a dog with serious issues?
> 
> ...


How are kids able to communicate with each other when they're not allowed to curse? Or deliberately burp at the table? Or throw screaming tantrums? Or hit or bite other people? They use other, politer methods. I think of it in the same way.

ETA (for KristM): Correcting or redirecting, doesn't matter which, you're not allowing the behaviour to continue and that's what's important.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

_Or is it the thought that the older dog is always supposed to be 'higher' than the younger dogs? _



> In my household? Yes. Otherwise, when the older dog eventually becomes weaker or ill, the younger will run roughshod over him. Better to head that off at the pass.


I agree with this and will enforce the older dogs 'status' even if they don't feel like doing so.
Just because a puppy _thinks_ it's higher in status doesn't make it so.

I don't believe it's healthy to bring in a young pup and let it try to dominate the older dog in the home. I've seen messed up pups when that is allowed to happen.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

Our friend's Belgian Malinois pup did this same thing to our 80 lb Golden Doodle, Gus. Gus ADORED the pup and put up with that and anything else he did, including chewing three collars off him when they were outside. That Mal could chew through a collar in like fifteen minutes!  The Mal was goofy and playful for that breed. Nice dog, really smart, but enough energy to power a small country.

Gus is much firmer with Jaeger, my GSD pup, and would discipline him if he tried any of that. Gus decides when they play and how long they play. 

It's funny how adult dogs will take to a pup, isn't it? Jaeger is my oldest dog's favorite pup ever and she goes over to him and checks him all over anytime one of the other dogs yell at him (he always deserves it, lol). She just really likes him and he likes her and respects her the most and never pushes her boundaries at all. She's always been 2nd in command to me, and he seems to know it.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I guess I'm seeing a difference between what I consider obnoxious behavior and one dog standing over another dog. One of our dogs did this to another (for the life of me I can't remember which one) maybe twice. The dog being stood over had no reaction. That I do remember. I'd never seen a dog do this to another dog, though. There wasn't any growling or anything else. 
My pup, personally, wouldn't get in the face of another dog. He was well socialized with other dogs before he arrived. When I had him on a leash out front and my neighbor's aggressive dog was at the fence barking, snarling, etc. Grim just sat down and watched him. Like he was watching TV. He does the same thing if he's in the back yard.... he simply sits a good distance away (because I don't allow him to go to the fence) and watches. He's never attempted to pull anything with our old mutt. He will sniff her, wag his tail, and move on along. He doesn't bark at other dogs, growl at them, or anything else. (This does NOT include Layla, since he's become part of the pack)
Layla is a toy thief. She will steal toys out of Grim's mouth. I've corrected her for it, taken the toys away from her, etc. However, Grim is now walking up and taking his toy back from her. He humps her, but he'll also roll on his back during their rough housing and they continue mouthing each other no matter who is on top or on bottom. He's obviously not intimidated by her, but she isn't either. If either one of them has had enough, they change their 'tone' with a bark and the play stops. So, yes, I'm pretty happy with the way things are. No one's beating up on anyone else, harassing anyone else, attacking anyone else, or annoying anyone else. Our old mutt likes to bark at the two youngsters playing, though, and if she doesn't stop when I tell her to then I remove her from the room. I worry more about a puppy being intimidated by an older, larger dog than I do the older, larger dog being intimidated by a puppy. Not that I tolerate any intimidation, but my mind goes to the pup being bullied first. I haven't had any issues with a pup yet being the bully or bulldozing the bigger, older dogs. My pug just turned 2, so she's still technically a puppy... and they play together like 2 puppies. However, I don't see Grim putting up with any over the top behaviors from her as he gets older. Luckily, they have communicated and responded to those communications from each other as well as me. Pups in a litter communicate to each other, mothers to pups, etc. I can't really compare dogs to humans, because I'm sure someone would go to jail if we bit our children to teach them anything, etc. Of course children have other words to use...and they are humans...so completely different. 

Now... suppose that the older dog in the home (not elderly, just adult for the sake of this question) is of a more submissive temperament? I don't think you can make that dog not submissive to a more dominant personality...can you? Say there is a ball in the back yard. Your pack is out there. One dog will come up with that ball. The others will not. They believe that there is a hierarchy. Doesn't mean that there isn't a human at the top. You see the same thing in litters of puppies. So even if you have an adult and a puppy, doesn't mean that that adult will be the more 'dominant' of the two. It also doesn't mean that the owner isn't running the show. 

So how would you convince a dog that acts submissive to another dog that it shouldn't act submissive? I'm curious as to how a human would be able to change this.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

There is absolutely no way that I would be able to influence hierarchy like that with my dogs and I am certain that it would cause a great deal of problems and stress if I did! I dont allow obnoxious behavior towards eachother, but my youngest is without question the dominant dog. Works for me and my dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Now... suppose that the older dog in the home (not elderly, just adult for the sake of this question) is of a more submissive temperament?


You still don't let the pup run roughshod over the adult or senior in the home.


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## hoplite6 (Jun 18, 2012)

The pup doesn't run over Riley at all. Riley will definitely put him in his place when he's had enough of Baron's attention or when he wants the ball or toy. Most times, Riley tends to either tolerate him or ignore him completely. This seems to be more of Baron trying to get Riley's attention or him to interact with him. Right now, I don't see any issues with the overall pack dynamics here.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> You still don't let the pup run roughshod over the adult or senior in the home.


The point (and question) wasn't about letting a puppy 'run roughshod' over any dog. The OP posted nothing about this. An unsocialized pup isn't the question. The question is if the adult dog in the equation is a submissive type dog, how does a human change that so that the dog isn't submissive (if it can be done)? If a human is taking total control of all pack interactions, then somehow you've have to change the personalities of the dogs. People have posted that confident and or dominant dogs can 'sniff out' those dogs who are fearful or submissive very quickly. So how do you undo a dominant dog's personality and undo a submissive dog's personality? Can it be done? I don't mean just stepping in at every little bit of communication of "back off" or "you can have it"... I mean changing the pack dynamic so that these things don't happen at all? I haven't seen any signs from either dog that they're 'done' playing until I hear the bark, so there's nothing to 'interrupt' and I fail to see a correctable 'offense' there. One dog told another 'enough' and the other agreed. Especially interesting would be to see larger packs with 'new members' coming and going.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

> i guess i'm seeing a difference between what i consider obnoxious behavior and one dog standing over another dog. One of our dogs did this to another (for the life of me i can't remember which one) maybe twice. The dog being stood over had no reaction. That i do remember. I'd never seen a dog do this to another dog, though. There wasn't any growling or anything else.
> 
> yes, but just because a couple of dogs will tolerate it, it doesn't mean that the behaviour is not rude, just that your dogs are tolerant which is a good thing. There are several behaviours that are considered rude and will get a negative response from many dogs. The posturing described in the op is one.
> 
> ...


ETA: excuse the capitalization issues, when I saved, it removed the caps for some reason ...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Interesting. What are other 'rude' behaviors? I don't want to miss them.


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