# Simple little training question



## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Last night at the end of obedience class Trapper (7 months GSD) refused to go into a down stay for my husband. He was great during the rest of the class but it was like he had decided he was done with training for the night. He successfully did a sit stay for one minute just prior to the 'down stay' command. I was watching from the other side of the room. The trainer gave my husband a couple of suggestions but those didn't work. Then the trainer suggested I go over and put Trapper in a down stay (I've done about 75% of the training classes with the boys. I tried to put him in a down stay with a firm command and a treat lure but not success. Then I gave a stern pop of his leash (prong collar) and still unsuccessful It was as if Trapper had shut down or turned off. The trainer dismissed class but told me to put Trapper in a down stay and leave him in it. I gave him another leash correction and at that point I tried again and he reluctantly went down and stayed for about 30 seconds…then popped up on his own. This is probably an easy read for most here but we were a little baffled. Down stays are a no brainer for Trapper.
Any thoughts/suggestions? Thanks in advance.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Did he have to go to the bathroom? Robyn has shut down on me in agility. I would screw up and we had to do it over and over again, she was less then thrilled and just refused to cooperate.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Did he have to go to the bathroom? Robyn has shut down on me in agility. I would screw up and we had to do it over and over again, she was less then thrilled and just refused to cooperate.


I don't think so because he didn't use the bathroom until we got home an hour later). Maybe he was just tired? Even though he's a big boy, he (and his brother) seem wiped out after an hour of training…they literally pass out for the ride home. They each have three training classes a week and we train a lot at home……maybe Trapper's just getting a little bored with some of the basics? He enjoys the new stuff. Maybe I shouldn't read too much into it? Thanks!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

7 months old? Maybe he was bored? Maybe he was just shut down from training at that time. Personally, instead of correcting him, I would have ramped him up and made it fun. If you are forcing him to do something at this age, I think you take a chance of making him resent the command. I did that with my girl. I would have got him moving, made it fun for him.

If your dog has shut down during a class...you are DONE training for the day. DONE. Go put him up.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I think he was bored too

Delgado got bored in class often while sitting and waiting for the instructor to finish talking, so I brought a tug and I would play quietly with him if I saw him getting too fidgity. It kept him focused and engaged and didn't disturb the class


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

This is so helpful. So it's reasonable he may be bored or shut down….either way it means it's time to change the course….either training over or try to make it more fun……I also like the idea of a toy to help keep him engaged during "down" time to keep him from getting too bored. Both my husband and I read his behavior as "training time over" but because of trainer's insistence on continuing we pushed him a little harder. Thanks all! I can't thank you enough for your willingness to be a sounding board and offer your expertise. I know we are and will continue to make some mistakes along the way but we are trying to get this right for our boys…and they both have such sweet personalities at this point….we just don't want to wreck them! You're the best.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Listen to your gut about your dogs. Seger is 17 months old. He has not once been corrected for breaking a down because I've built value for that position. He was just started on an e-collar when he wouldn't out a couple of weeks ago. He's been corrected on a prong for pulling me when walking. But he has had very little correction for obedience because I put value on the position. If your pup won't down, then he does not see the value of doing so. When I start proofing Seger's obedience, then he'll get corrections as needed.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Listen to your gut about your dogs. Seger is 17 months old. He has not once been corrected for breaking a down because I've built value for that position. He was just started on an e-collar when he wouldn't out a couple of weeks ago. He's been corrected on a prong for pulling me when walking. But he has had very little correction for obedience because I put value on the position. If your pup won't down, then he does not see the value of doing so. When I start proofing Seger's obedience, then he'll get corrections as needed.


Do you mind sharing how you "build value" for the down stay….or for any command for that matter? Do you reward it or associate it with something awesome??? I'm just not sure what you mean. Thanks.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with boredom. My pup is 15 months old and currently doing sporty classes (flyball and agility) and he gets bored after about 5 reps of a single drill or command and he is not lacking in drive or enthusiasm. We see it a lot at flyball, since it is basically one behavior that is build as a chain of smaller behaviors. Some dogs like 25 reps for a single drill every time they come out (or would keep doing it forever) and other dogs only need 4-5 before they need to get put up or move on because they've figured it out and get bored.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

My first thought wouldn't be boredom J&E. Him completely refusing even with luring and corrections? I think it would be more like something bothering him, feeling some pressure from something. I'd want to move him around a bunch to release some of that stress, lure him into a quick, motivated down, release him before he got up on his own, and then play with him.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I agree with Steve. Change the scenery a bit- too much pressure from somewhere. 

My boy will get like this on occasion. I just move it around a bit, thrown the down into a another context or in the middle of play. Your puppy was trying to tell you something.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Do you mind sharing how you "build value" for the down stay….or for any command for that matter? Do you reward it or associate it with something awesome??? I'm just not sure what you mean. Thanks.



PM me later. Trying to get down with work and OUTTA here for the weekend.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I agree with Steve. Change the scenery a bit- too much pressure from somewhere.
> 
> My boy will get like this on occasion. I just move it around a bit, thrown the down into a another context or in the middle of play. Your puppy was trying to tell you something.


Thanks.. Makes sense


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> My first thought wouldn't be boredom J&E. Him completely refusing even with luring and corrections? I think it would be more like something bothering him, feeling some pressure from something. I'd want to move him around a bunch to release some of that stress, lure him into a quick, motivated down, release him before he got up on his own, and then play with him.


Yeah... Was uncharacteristic behavior.... Maybe had enough of the prong collar.. We only use it for classes and walks... Thanks!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just for something to think about, Its tough to isolate things in a group class. Maybe the person leading it should keep an eye on him, and see if they can pick up on something. He's the same one that kinda felt a little bullied by his brother, and just as a guess from across the country, I'd lean more towards something with other dogs or a specific dog that as they're all maturing has started to show up. Especially since the problem came up with the down, that's a tough one for dogs having a little insecurity going on.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Was the place he has to down a new one? Was he near a new dog? Can you describe the environment? Is he downing in a place another dog was just there before? Was his eyes focused on the handler or looking at something else? 

Did you try making him down in a new place away from other people and/or dogs?


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Just for something to think about, Its tough to isolate things in a group class. Maybe the person leading it should keep an eye on him, and see if they can pick up on something. He's the same one that kinda felt a little bullied by his brother, and just as a guess from across the country, I'd lean more towards something with other dogs or a specific dog that as they're all maturing has started to show up. Especially since the problem came up with the down, that's a tough one for dogs having a little insecurity going on.


Interesting. Will speak with trainer about his behavior. He had just successfully completed a prolonged sit stay in the exact same spot and didn't seem to have any problem with the dogs around him (dogs were about 10 feet apart in a huge circle). Will watch closely in next class. He certainly doesn't act insecure around other dogs…always interested in them and pulls toward them to touch noses (when given the opportunity)…although I don't trust my ability to interpret their body language yet…….getting better but have a long way to go. 
Thanks for your insight.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Bear L said:


> Was the place he has to down a new one? Was he near a new dog? Can you describe the environment? Is he downing in a place another dog was just there before? Was his eyes focused on the handler or looking at something else?
> 
> Did you try making him down in a new place away from other people and/or dogs?


Huge room with about 10 dogs….dogs were at least 10 feet apart in a big circle. 
He had just completed a long sit/stay in the same spot (without difficulty) so don't think it had to do with another dog or the location. His right leg was shaking a little (according to my husband) so he was anxious about something. Also, my husband just told me Trapper wouldn't look at him during that event.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Don't be too hard on him. He is only 7 months old. Within an hour of agility Deja throws in the towel too (no longer concentration and slower responses or jumping towards another dog). As soon as I see the first signs I make her do something that is easy and fun for her and leave the class, no matter if the others are still working.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Don't be too hard on him. He is only 7 months old. Within an hour of agility Deja throws in the towel too (no longer concentration and slower responses or jumping towards another dog). As soon as I see the first signs I make her do something that is easy and fun for her and leave the class, no matter if the others are still working.


Thanks, will keep that in mind. He is so large and regal-looking…..sometimes it's hard to remember he's still such a puppy (brain and body).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you and your husband are taking classes together with both dogs, I think that could be part of the issue. Or if you are there and then go to work the dog(because the dog won't comply with hubby's command) it could be causing some conflict for a puppy brain. 
I would not attend next week and see if your husband has a different connection with him. 
7 months is very young to expect downstay in a distracting environment. 
Do you/hubby tug with pups to keep engagement? 
Treats flatten out drive/enthusiasm....if the dog has already learned an exercise then treats tend to be lower value compared to a reward of tug.
I know pet classes don't allow exciting rewards, but they do keep the dog engaged and enthused to work.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

three training classes a week, plus home training....is it all the same stuff or are you doing different type sport? Sometimes less is more. 
My own dog is not into pattern training, or over training. He is at his best when we don't train daily. 
I always try to end every session on a good tone...even if we have to take a step back or do something easy. 
One other thing(though I know your pet class probably doesn't do) is restrained recalls each session to help the pup/dog connect to the handler. 
We usually end sessions with a restrained recall, then the dog gets to tug their way back to the vehicle...always a fun way to end the session.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> three training classes a week, plus home training....is it all the same stuff or are you doing different type sport? Sometimes less is more.
> My own dog is not into pattern training, or over training. He is at his best when we don't train daily.
> I always try to end every session on a good tone...even if we have to take a step back or do something easy.
> One other thing(though I know your pet class probably doesn't do) is restrained recalls each session to help the pup/dog connect to the handler.
> We usually end sessions with a restrained recall, then the dog gets to tug their way back to the vehicle...always a fun way to end the session.


Maybe the pups get confused when we switch off training sessions and/or when we both attend a session. My husband travels about 20 days a month so I handle the majority of training. However, sometimes he is home and I am working so he occasionally takes them to training alone. When we are both available we felt it would be helpful (to us) to both attend training with one handler and one observer so we could see how they are adding. We have never before intervened if we are observing. However, when the pups begin to get tired they WILL start making eye contact with the observer during their heeling sessions (when they get close to the observer). It's as if they are pleading with the observer to "stop the insanity" although most of the time they seem to be having a great time (just get tired or bored at the end). Just to clarify…one dog per class…..we don't have both pups in the same classes.
The 3 classes have very little overlap regarding exercises. One class is beginner obedience (sit/stay/down/heel/finish/restrained recalls/running recalls, etc). The second class is also an obedience class but works more on focus, eye contact, teaching and rewarding loose leash behavior, etc. That class is more focused on helping to develop bonding behaviors rather than just specific tasks. And the third class is puppy agility (pups LOVe agility so far).
My husband and I are each training two dogs instead of each of us choosing one of the pups to focus on (does that make sense)? Not sure if it's the right decision but we want them to respond to both of us. We are working on consistency regarding verbal/nonverbal/hand signals. As I write this I am becoming more concerned with the confusion this must be causing our pups.
Will no longer attend classes as observer (same for hubby).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

good to read you are doing recalls. I personally think obedience can be very, very boring to many puppies. Especially focused heeling. GSD's want to work but not in a boring situation. 
Is there any herding or Treibball type classes you can do to mix up the ob? Agility is great, maybe that could be the focus?


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

I have zero experience with so much formal training/sport, but I read this article awhile ago and thought it'd be perfect to post. It's basically about what you're talking about, when you hit a point where the dog shuts down, and ways you can try to boost enthusiasm again. 

shutting a dog down | Nancy Tanner


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So is the training both at a time, together?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You could always try just making it happen and not letting the dog discover pictures where he can get away with just not doing the behavior. Crazy concept these days perhaps, but if I know my dog knows a behavior I expect it to happen. Enthusiasm is nice, but for pet obedience not a necessity. Don't get me wrong, be as tactful as you can about it, but at the same time make it happen.

If the dog knows a behavior for sure in a given situation and the handler asks it and the dog doesn't do it and the handler just lets it go or asks again it doesn't happen and lets it go guess what the dog learns?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

one more hint. If your dog struggles with a down and you finally get it you don't want to just throw a stay on it right away in training situations. Celebrate the down by immediately releasing the dog into play or affection. Asking for a stay immediately after a dog struggles for just the down is like giving someone a super hard calculus problem then wacking em for every wrong answer and then when they finally get it right rewarding them with 30 more problems. It kinda sucks.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Baillif said:


> one more hint. If your dog struggles with a down and you finally get it you don't want to just throw a stay on it right away in training situations. *Celebrate the down by immediately releasing the dog into play or affection. * Asking for a stay immediately after a dog struggles for just the down is like giving someone a super hard calculus problem then wacking em for every wrong answer and then when they finally get it right rewarding them with 30 more problems. It kinda sucks.


I agree! And then end that session. I would NOT end it with the dog not complying, because as Baillif said, he learns he can get away with not complying.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

llombardo said:


> So is the training both at a time, together?


No…obedience is one pup in a morning class and the other pup in an evening class. Agility…same way….one in a morning class and one in an evening class…Monday = agility; Thursday = obedience. extra driving for us but trying to avoid distractions from the other pup.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Baillif said:


> one more hint. If your dog struggles with a down and you finally get it you don't want to just throw a stay on it right away in training situations. Celebrate the down by immediately releasing the dog into play or affection. Asking for a stay immediately after a dog struggles for just the down is like giving someone a super hard calculus problem then wacking em for every wrong answer and then when they finally get it right rewarding them with 30 more problems. It kinda sucks.


Yes Baliff, this was the dilemma at that moment….should pup be able to decide when he is done? probably not the best idea under most circumstances….but cut him a little slack and don't expect two prolonged stays back to back…set up for failure…..will also ramp up the celebrations/play…thanks!


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> good to read you are doing recalls. I personally think obedience can be very, very boring to many puppies. Especially focused heeling. GSD's want to work but not in a boring situation.
> Is there any herding or Treibball type classes you can do to mix up the ob? Agility is great, maybe that could be the focus?



Then make it NOT boring!! There's no reason it has to be boring. My dogs LOVE obedience and as soon as I say our "word" (are you ready?!) to signify we are starting obedience, they are bouncing around, barking, going nuts. Yes they are higher drive dogs, but doesn't matter, I've trained lower drive pet dogs with the same methods and had really good results. Mix it up with toys, use "rough housing" (if they like it, can be roughing them up, smacking their sides, pushing them , etc, many dogs like this because most people don't do this on a daily basis), look up food chasing games from Michael Ellis. Really important when you're trying to do an hour long class. 

I think you are asking a lot of a 7 month old puppy and I personally wouldn't go to corrections for this at all, not right now. You need to do like Jax said and build value for it, not break the puppy down. Some dogs can't even handle corrections during obedience and will shut down--my GSD is like this. I literally cannot use any physical correction or even "no", I have to just ignore/no reward with her for a wrong response. I am not against prong collars at all, and use them for walks, I have just never had a need for them on 5-6-7 month old puppies. 

I helped with several of the puppy obedience classes our behavior rotation ran during vet school, and I could take people's puppies from them and get better responses out of them than the owners! I was fun and they were not. My good friend was even watching a puppy long term once for a relative and wanted to bring him AND her own puppy to class so I volunteered to help train the relative's puppy, who I had met a total of one time before this, and the puppy worked better for me than my friend, to the point of completely ignoring my friend for the entire class (who had the same treats as me!).


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

For pet obedience I don't want my dogs going nuts or expecting a super good time because it's just about having a dog in control and bouncing around in front of me and expecting a release into a tug isn't pet obedience. Michael Ellis isn't geared at pets it is geared at performance sport behaviors. A bored calm dog in a down stay is great. Being bored or distracted isn't a valid excuse to not doing a down when the dog knows a down. The dog should down in any state of mind. That is obedience. Obedience is obedience it isn't whenever the dog feels like it.

Be patient, teach when you have to, be as tactful as you can and don't demotivate your dog, but at the same time leave no other option for the dog but to do the behavior when you ask them to do the behavior.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Baillif said:


> For pet obedience I don't want my dogs going nuts or expecting a super good time because it's just about having a dog in control and bouncing around in front of me and expecting a release into a tug isn't pet obedience. Michael Ellis isn't geared at pets it is geared at performance sport behaviors. A bored calm dog in a down stay is great. Being bored or distracted isn't a valid excuse to not doing a down when the dog knows a down. The dog should down in any state of mind. That is obedience. Obedience is obedience it isn't whenever the dog feels like it.


Ok that is your opinion  but it doesn't have to be that way for "pet dogs" because you say so, like I already said, I have experience training this type as well, quite a bit, in a class setting even. None of those dogs were doing the things you just said, because they were not high drive dogs, what they were was more focused on me which was the goal!
I just think you need all the tools in your tool box for a puppy especially and not just rely on corrections since it's "pet obedience."


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Never said I just relied on corrections. I look to reward dogs with affection and praise and maybe a little food here and there but what I don't want is a conditioned expectation or excitement for pets which is exactly what you've created from the sound of things. That's your dog if that's what you want great, but it's IME not what clients typically want around the house.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

I never said you relied only on corrections . Never mentioned your name at all right there. 
Just because that is in your experience, doesn't mean that's the way it should be or has to be. What is wrong with a pet dog getting excited? My obedience transitions to regular "home obedience" just fine, better than anyone I know with just a pet dog. I am giving the OP more tools to use, in case she doesn't want to just give corrections or has a dog who can't handle them well. Some dogs will roll over and start peeing down their leg from just the word "No." (I had a dog like this--this way when I got him). Pretty sure that's not compatible with any type of obedience period.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

There are times for calm obedience and times for excited obedience....IMHO...I don't want "excited" obedience with a fever pitch exhibited by the dog in certain settings....such as having company over in the house...I much prefer "calm" obedience. When I am outside and working my dog with the frisbee...a down/stay is soooooo much different than a down/stay in the house....both are similar in the sense that the dog is in an extended down/stay BUT when outside ( in training mode/obedience ) the dog is on edge..at the ready and completely focused on me for what might be coming next, command wise. 

Question regarding OP's original question...once in a great while inside and I want a down and have commanded the dog as such and she shows reluctance....is it good or bad, if after commanding once, the dog fails, I will take her front paws and extend them out putting her in a down position?...this would only take place from a sitting position. The other route I have taken is after asking once and the dog does not comply, I might have the dog come front or some other command and once executed then command the down...and it always seems to have worked. It's almost like I have broken the reluctance by starting anew...dog executes a simple command and then we just follow through to a down....the continuity of a properly executed command previous to the desired command seems to put the dog in a mode which lends hand to the dog obeying. I can see a potential down side from either of these approaches as they might train the dog to not obey if this behavior became the norm.


SuperG


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dogs that do things like the roll over peeing thing can still be corrected they just need to be roughed up some to raise their thresholds for that sort of thing, often in play. My preferred solution to dogs like that isn't to avoid correction entirely it's to toughen them up and create a clear understanding in the dogs mind as to what a correction is, how to avoid it, that they are actually in control of it through their behaviors and through that process create a stronger more confident dog.

Might need to be ready to clean up a lot of urine to start off with but its worth it in the end.

Can food and excitement be used sometimes to bring a dog up out of a funk? Sure but it's best to use those after you get a desired behavior not to make the desired behavior happen. Also you don't want to rely on them they should be faded once the dog is where it needs to be.

Dogs don't get inate meaning in humans tones of voice. You can easily train a dog to come running excitedly to bellowing IM GOING TO KILL YOU! And cower in fear to saying good girl! In a high pitched loving tone. All that matters is the end consequence of the signal you make.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Wolfenstein said:


> I have zero experience with so much formal training/sport, but I read this article awhile ago and thought it'd be perfect to post. It's basically about what you're talking about, when you hit a point where the dog shuts down, and ways you can try to boost enthusiasm again.
> 
> shutting a dog down | Nancy Tanner


Thanks for the link. I just checked out the youtube and it was enlightening to me. So many possibilities for making mistakes with our dogs…just hoping we can do lots more right than wrong!


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Baillif said:


> Dogs that do things like the roll over peeing thing can still be corrected they just need to be roughed up some to raise their thresholds for that sort of thing, often in play. My preferred solution to dogs like that isn't to avoid correction entirely it's to toughen them up and create a clear understanding in the dogs mind as to what a correction is, how to avoid it, that they are actually in control of it through their behaviors and through that process create a stronger more confident dog.
> 
> Might need to be ready to clean up a lot of urine to start off with but its worth it in the end.
> 
> ...


And that is what I did with my peeing dog, but it took almost a year of working on it daily and for months I could not give any corrections whatsoever and I was already cleaning up urine 20-30 times a day(this is not an exaggeration). Very soft dog. Not something most people will stick with at all, that is how I got him . My point is I had to think outside of corrections for many many months, that dog taught me a ton and I still miss him. And we made do, he was not a sport dog at all but a pet dog yet somehow we managed without the corrections 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/watch-learn-member-training-videos/430434-power-frisbee.html
A thread of yours, and I don't see anyone asking how they can train their dog to do a more calm, less accurate, slower version of your training 

My point is that there is no "right" way to do it and when someone asks for training advice I think it's important to consider all the tools


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It isn't that slow of a process. Within 4 weeks of working with him the roughness in play and in training should have raised the threshold to where you didn't really see much of the peeing anymore. The corrections would have been applied immediately as that process was ongoing. You can't teach a dog about pressure without ever applying pressure to the dog.

That video was a dog training for sport. If someone wanted a video on how I'd get that without the frisbee and in a slow calm way I could do that, although I probably wouldn't. I should probably make an updated one at some point where I don't reward him at all. You guys should see how fast Zebu has gotten. Got cranked up big time with age.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Appreciating all the valuable tools you guys are offering. Also appreciating the conversations amongst you. No doubt every dog requires a slightly different approach to training. Gives me lots to ponder. The take-home point is we are dealing with a dynamic set of circumstances and we need to continually observe/assess their behavior/responses. We also need to do our best to maintain consistency in everything we do. If you asked me right now if my dogs were "soft", I don't even know. Both seem relaxed with steady nerves. They are eager to meet/greet people/dogs/cats/etc. They don't show any aggression (except last week when a black lab walked into obedience and about two feet from Trapper, growling and baring his teeth…Trapper returned the growl and also was baring teeth (had never seen that before)..The moment passed as soon as the black lab's owner moved his dog out of the way. They aren't overly excitable during classes and will usually lay down and begin yawning during demonstrations (i read as boredom). At home when we practice recalls, they run as if excited towards us. In class when we do restrained recalls, they act lethargic, sort of swaggering over to us, in no hurry. Not sure what to make of that.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Could be nerves could be competing motivators. Yawning is usually more about stress. Hard to know without seeing the dogs.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Could be nerves could be competing motivators. Yawning is usually more about stress. Hard to know without seeing the dogs.


I've read some of their yawns as stress on occasion. From now on during training sessions I'll rule that out first when I see a yawn…..this is a whole new language for me. btw…..took them for a leashed walk this am (without hubby). Both boys did extremely well. I've been reluctant to take them together 'cause their so big and powerful. We encountered neighbor and their giant schnauzer (hx of problems between him and my boys). Anyway…..schnauzer owner leashed schnauzer when they saw me coming with my boys. I put my boys in a sit without difficulty. My Hawkeye remained in a sit and seemed to have no interest in interacting with schnauzer. My Trapper started playing with schnauzer. Schnauzer growled and I called and pulled Trapper back. Schnauzer owner said "it was just a happy growl". Is there such a thing as happy growl? We didn't let the dogs interact any more after that. Rest of my walk was wonderful with my boys……when they would tighten the leash they would turn around and look at me, loosening leash and getting praise (and sometimes a treat).


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Baillif said:


> It isn't that slow of a process. Within 4 weeks of working with him the roughness in play and in training should have raised the threshold to where you didn't really see much of the peeing anymore. The corrections would have been applied immediately as that process was ongoing. You can't teach a dog about pressure without ever applying pressure to the dog.
> 
> That video was a dog training for sport. If someone wanted a video on how I'd get that without the frisbee and in a slow calm way I could do that, although I probably wouldn't. I should probably make an updated one at some point where I don't reward him at all. You guys should see how fast Zebu has gotten. Got cranked up big time with age.


So I understand you think you are very good at training (and you might be, I don't know) but sorry this is a little annoying. You don't know the dog I had at all, never saw him, and I'm only relaying a small piece of info about him. I wasn't about to clean up urine 50 times a day so I could move faster.  The way I did things (on my own, teaching myself, trial and error, I have never worked with an actual "trainer" in person outside of schutzhund) worked great, could someone else have moved faster with him? Maybe. This dog had years of trouble to work through and there's no way he would have be ok with getting any physical/verbal corrections in 4 weeks after owning him, not without slinging urine everywhere. I won't tell you how many times I took urine to the face just because I forgot and leaned over him to pet him. 
You could say the word "no" in the most high pitched happy voice anyone could muster and this dog would roll on his back flinging urine everywhere, it had nothing to do with the tone of voice and no he wasn't abused at his prior home, he was just a soft dog like I have yet to meet again. I had to change my language and the entire way I trained with him. He was scared to death of the sound a clicker made even. That's awesome that you do some kind of training work for a living, but that's doesn't mean you know it all. Heck I even spoke with Denise Fenzi personally about my GSD & a huge issue we had in training. she was *stumped* on where to go with it and not afraid to tell me. I had a lot of respect for her just then. 
The I-already-know-it-all attitude was one of the reasons I was somewhat glad to move away from the schutzhund club I was in, it's a major turn off and just ends the discussion for me. My GSD's problem was created by a TD with that attitude. And Here I am years later still trying to work through it.


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## gsforever (Apr 16, 2013)

Not read all the posts yet, but my first gs never really got smart until around 2 years old, then she went through the roof with the smarts, understood many many words like a small child. I don't think one size training fits all dogs, and quite frankly the more I read also does confuse me, not complaining since the basics are the basics.

It's the big dog next to pup.


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