# Aggressive / Fearful GSD - HELP!



## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

GSD has been ours since a puppy. 
6.5 years old. 
Never abused or mistreated. 
Family of four, two adults, two children. (Kids were 4 and 6 when we got him, now 11 and 13 - always kind and respectful to the dog).

GSD bit a child in 2008. I was going to have him put down that day (sorry but people come first) Our vet and the victim's parents all advocated AGAINST it saying there were extenuating circumstances, GSD thought he was protecting our daughter, etc. 

We are very careful - or so we thought. We have an invisible fence system plus put the dog away whenever we have visitors, etc. We take no chances with him being around people that aren't family. 

Until today when the Fed Ex driver parked at the end of our 1000' driveway and hiked up. She made it almost to the porch when, as she tells it, he went from wagging his tail to biting her. No torn clothing, no broken skin, and he instantly retreated - but it scared the HECK out of us. I'm still shaking nearly two hours later. 

I am just sick over this. One one hand I know it can be argued that he was doing what a dog like this does - protecting his home. 

On the other hand, I cannot have the risk/liability of a dog that cannot be trusted. To my mind, two biting incidents are two too many. 

He is healthy if a bit timid. Has as strong ball drive (loves to fetch and will do it endlessly) and is very devoted to the family. 

Is this level of aggression/protection just the norm for a GSD or a sign we should be considering him a danger? 

I'm an animal lover and am SICK at the thought of having to rehome him - but I also cannot take the risk/liability of a dog who is unsafe for humans. 

What would you do?


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Have you worked with a trainer or behaviorist? If not, that would be the first step.
Get a good, solid assessment of the dog and try and find out what the triggers are or what may be causing the aggression.


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## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

Thanks!

We live in the middle of nowhere NE Ohio. Where would I find one of those? So far what I seem to find are glorified doggy daycare/teach your dog to fetch type listings. Is there an accreditation I should look for.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

You should be able to get some responses from people on the forum. I live in MN so I'm not familiar with any trainers out your way.
There are also threads under the "Forums" tab with information on types of behavior.
Keep checking back, the people on this forum have a lot of information and experience.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Find a behaviorist. Find several if needed. Train the dog. Never leave the dog out unattended. Invisible fences can stop your dog from leaving the yard but do not protect your dog from things entering the yard.

This recent bite is your fault not the dogs. The dog has not been trained or worked with. You know it has fear issues and a bite history and yet you left it to be in this situation. Do right by your dog and give him a chance at a life. Put in the effort he deserves from you.


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## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

Thank you again! 

I have a message in to a friend of a friend who works with GSDs to see if they have trainer info. 

It's difficult to find a trainer that goes beyond sit/stay/fetch.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

kennel the dog when not under immediate supervision -- and never ever rely on an electric fence . 
Also many places have laws which ensure safe access to your front door, which includes mail delivery, emergency services, "girl guides etc" , --


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Please click on "user cp" and put your location or general area so that people can better assist you to find a behaviorist in your area.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Carman makes a good point here. The dog needs to be protected within a safe enclosre. Other people need to be protected from a possible bite. This is an important obligation you have as a dog owner. 

The only people I know that allow their guarding breeds of dogs to be free on the property are people who do not mind if their dog bites someone coming round.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I googled "dog behaviorist ne ohio" and got several results. Not sure if any of these places are in your area and I did not thoroughly look them over.

If you check with your vet or area vet clinics I'm sure they will also be able to assist you with finding a trainer.

Signature K9 Dog Training & Behavior Management

Northeast Ohio Positive Dog Trainers

Obedient Dogs and More | Dog and Puppy Training in Cleveland and Northeast Ohio

North Coast Dogs –Cleveland Dog Training&Behavior


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## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

This is a great idea. We have the means - they have a physical pen or the house itself. My husband had just stepped inside and we had no idea there was anyone on the property.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Doesn't sound like a terrible biter if he bit her and didn't break any skin. Sounds more like a "nip" - could it have been just an overly enthusiastic dog and not a real aggresive bite.

Still need to confine, and train him; but not nearly as bad as it could have been.


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## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

Thanks Brandi. 

I agree but the truth is we are a country family with active children in and out all day. It's not realistic, or a promise I can realistically make that the dog will be glued to someone's leg all day. He enjoys, for example, laying on the porch relaxing. We do not lay on the porch. We work in the yard. He was with my husband who had momentarily stepped inside. I find it hard to believe that every other responsible dog owner in America keeps their dog firmly at their side at all times. We have 12 acres - 5+ in fence, primarily so we could relax and not worry if someone had to run to the bathroom. 

I realize it's popular to always blame the owner but you don't know us. You don't know the training that's gone into this dog. You don't really know anything about the situation but immediately jumped to "well of course it's YOU." 

We've had him trained. We have the best vet in the tri COUNTY area (who advocated for his life when he bit a child). We have changed our way of life to the point where the dog is always contained if we have visitors. If someone pulls in the driveway. If someone is even SUPPOSED to come over. 

We truly never thought Fed Ex would actually park and hike in through the woods.


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## sgermanshepherds (Jul 31, 2010)

I usually do not post but my thoughts are since you know your dog has
had issues in the past around strangers why not take the precautions
not to let him near them? You have owned him for 6 1/2 years yet
are not being as careful as you should be even now. He could be
very much be feeding off of you are someone else in the family to be
protective. If he is shy he does not act secure as a dog that is
stable so he just goes after the person not knowing anything else to do.
In this situation you need a strong fenced in backyard behind your home 
to keep him in instead of fencing that does not work. He should never
be allowed to be around strangers. Even if you were to send him off to
be trained it would make no difference since he has developed his behavior
already with your family. If the trainer or behaviorist was able to train him to accept others he would probably resort back to his same behavior.


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## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

Big thank you! I'm sorry if I seemed short in my other reply and I do apologize but we are not novice dog owners. We had a previous dog who was wonderful, well trained, and never a problem until we lost him to cancer. This dog has had all the same care and we are stumped!

About half the people we talk to say "well of course he got excited, someone just showed up out of nowhere and tried to come on to your porch." Still I can't just let this go. 

We are in Mahoning County so one of those links (Alliance) sounded really good. I've already contacted them. I also have a call in to a GSD rescue in our area - not to rehome him, but because I want to see how they recommend. I'm sure they know trainers since they surely address dogs with behavior issues. 

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here. We love this dog. We are not fair weather pet owners ready to get rid of him at the first sign of trouble. I'm sick over this because now instead of seeing our wonderful dog - right now I just see liability.

We already keep him enclosed at night, when we are gone, etc. DH missed a trick when he came inside but it's difficult to explain if you don't live in the country that when you live in the middle of many acres 1000' off the road, you don't get many drop-ins, so the idea that someone would come wandering up the walk sans vehicle caught us all of guard.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

writermom said:


> Thanks Brandi.
> 
> I agree but the truth is we are a country family with active children in and out all day. It's not realistic, or a promise I can realistically make that the dog will be glued to someone's leg all day. He enjoys, for example, laying on the porch relaxing. We do not lay on the porch. We work in the yard. He was with my husband who had momentarily stepped inside. I find it hard to believe that every other responsible dog owner in America keeps their dog firmly at their side at all times. We have 12 acres - 5+ in fence, primarily so we could relax and not worry if someone had to run to the bathroom.
> 
> ...


"Country family" - what is this and why would it exempt you from being responsible for insuring that a GSD that you knew had issues with biting?

A delivery person is a possibility to anyne living anywhere, isn't it?

Why not a kennel/dog run for your dog?

*"We've had him trained." *
Would this imply that you sent him off for training at a trainer? Or that you or your husband actually took him to private or public training? There is a HUGE difference in these approaches. 

Behavior modification training doesn't work unless the owners are also trained and the dog's routine is changed otherwise the dog will revert to his old behavior.

BTW - what if it had been a child that came into your property instead of a delivery person?

And remember, the owner IS Responsible for their dog and it's behavior.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We had him trained, could be anything, sent off for training, or an eight week course in the dogs first year. Now he's trained -- yippee.

The dog is 6 1/2. You are considering putting him down for a nip? 

Sorry, if the GSD wanted to injure this person she would have stitches. 

I think you do need to do something about this. But killing the dog is just not a possibility. 

What about switching your invisible fence so that the dog does not have access to the front door? 

I am not a fan of e-fences, but if the dog is only outside when you are out with him, it can work. That can keep the dog away from the driveway and front door. Train the children and the dog that it only goes out the back door. That way you can work in the yard and the dog can run about with you, and the front door and porch would be off limits. 

Then if a Fedx person comes without a vehicle to deliver to your home, they can get to the front door without being molested.

It would be a shame for a dog that showed that much restraint to be put down.


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## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

Quick update - I just emailed a friend who is my connection to a GSD trainer. After hearing only the basics she said "I met that same Fed Ex driver today. She is NOT pet savvy." Apparently this same driver took risks with friend's pets earlier today. She was in a Ryder rather than Fed Ex truck. I wonder if she's not an experience driver? I'm just glad she didn't get hurt. 

This does NOT excuse the dog and our plan as of tonight is to tighten up our previous ways to be:

Dog is contained or physically with a family member in yard - always. 
This means a loss of freedom for him since he will basically be at our side or in his fenced run / in house at all times. (I say this like numerous "city dogs" don't live like this all the time). 

Getting kids and husband to understand that they MUST put him away or bring him in even if they are coming in "just for a minute" will be the real learning curve.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I live in the country. 

If my dogs are not right with me, they are in their safe kennels (concrete base, covered over, 9 gage wire) within a solid fenced back yard. 

Keeping the dogs safe is number 1 priority. It really does not matter if everyone in town or city has their dog running at large. That does not change the fact that if your dog does bite someone, he may be ordered to be put down, you may lose your homewoner's insurance and unable to purchase any while you continue to own the dog, or any dog of certain breeds, etc, etc, etc.

What is important is YOUR dog, not everyone else's.

Getting the kids and husband to realize that another incident, and it may be out of your hands.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am not a fan of the "country dog" idea. We are rural here. Many people have the mindset of this type of living arrangement for their dogs. 

I realize many people see this as normal or as some desirable living circumstance for a dog. I have seen so many problems in this over the years. Lost dogs, bitten people, injured dogs and dead dogs. I just don't see any advantages to this for dogs

I realize the dog here had precautions taken and that a plan was in place. That is good consideration was put into the management. Another approach to the management will probably have a good result as you are for your dog in this!


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## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

Quick update - I just emailed a friend who is my connection to a GSD trainer. After hearing only the basics she said "I met that same Fed Ex driver today. She is NOT pet savvy." Apparently this same driver took risks with friend's pets earlier today. She was in a Ryder rather than Fed Ex truck. I wonder if she's not an experience driver? I'm just glad she didn't get hurt and hope she is more cautious. 

*To answer your other question: the dogs do have a kennel r*un. 

They also come in the house at night, when we are gone, etc. 
*The only reason he was out without us - and then momentarily - was that DH had come in to use the bathroom* (sorry TMI). We don't rely ONLY on the invisible fence. That's just a way to keep them from running off property if they are chasing squirrels. It also keeps them out of the pasture so they aren't kicked/stepped on. 

The only real change for us is in getting kids and husband to understand that they MUST put him away or bring him in even if they are coming in "just for a minute". 

*Thanks again for all the input, links, etc. It really helps. We have had guilt about keeping the dogs so contained (although the dogs don't seem to mind it) - they have nice enclosures - it's not like we are keeping them chained to a post). 

ETA: Sorry for the repeat/double post. I'm sure it's operator error. Apologies! 

*


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## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

> I am not a fan of the "country dog" idea. We are rural here. Many people have the mindset of this type of living arrangement for their dogs.


I agree completely. When I said "we are country" I meant it in relation to how our property is situated, not in our pet management style. 

You are correct that too many people think "oh it's the country, my dogs can roam" and nothing could be further from the truth. 

Also add to your list of the possible mishaps: your dog could be accused of something - from killing chickens to worse. 

We also have a lot of coyotes around here and whether the coyotes themselves, or the people shooting at them, I wouldn't take chances with a dog who roams, whatever the breed.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Danger to dogs not safely confined, especially dogs with issues http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/148197-crazy-another-cop-shoots-dog.html

When I said this bite was your fault I did not mean you are a bad dog owner. Everyone makes mistakes it does not make you a bad person. Blaming the dog for this will not solve anything. If you can accept that this was the humans fault then you can take steps to prevent it from happening again. You are here and looking for help so that is a step in the right direction. Putting a dog down for a bite without working to fix/help the dog is not acceptable IMO. It is an easy out for an owners failure. It is rare for a dog to be so aggressive that it cannot be helped. I feel when you choose to own a dog you have a responsibility to exhaust every option when that dog needs you. You have a responsibility to show that a dog's loyalty is special and not something you can dump when the dog becomes a problem.

When you have a dog with issues you have to be extra vigilant to make sure he is always safe and people are safe from him. It doesn't matter if a stupid person came into your yard selling crap you don't want and reacted in a way to cause a bite. You have to have steps in place to make sure that doesn't happen. Great saying "expect the unexpected"

I think finding a behaviorist will greatly benefit your family, your dog, and any future dogs you have.


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## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

> I feel when you choose to own a dog you have a responsibility to exhaust every option when that dog needs you. You have a responsibility to show that a dog's loyalty is special and not something you can dump when the dog becomes a problem.


I agree. I come from a long line of "animals are a responsibility for LIFE" people. That said, I have to impress upon the family that if they cannot be consistent in this we will have to remove the liability. I love dogs but I can't lose sleep - or my home and financial security - over a dog. 

We had a talk with the kids (and husband) last night and came to THIS as the plan:

Outdoor kennel/run or heated basement if we are gone 
In house / in heated basement when we are home 
In yard / barn / property ONLY if we are outside with them. 

Does this seem like a normal level of confinement? This isn't like leaving your dog chained to a tree all the time right? 

I guess what I'm asking is How do other dogs live?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Seems okay to me. That is pretty much how mine live. We do have a relatively large pen, 12x20 for confinement within the already fenced yard. 

We take them out in the yard to play and romp around. They pretty much expect us to go out there with them. The exercise pens, we use to get multiple dogs out or to confine when we are not out in the fenced backyard. I don't like to leave them alone in the fenced yard. I have had people try to interact with them over the fence.

Mine are crated inside when we leave the house.

The dogs here do expect their field trips out and about though....going for a walk or to training activities.


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## writermom (Feb 16, 2011)

> We do have a relatively large pen, 12x20


I believe that's the size of ours as well. It's in a shady/wooded area just off the edge of the yard so he can see the house/barn and has a nice view of everything. I don't know why this matters to me but it's not like he's out behind a garage with nothing to see but a fence or wall. 

I've been looking out at him and he seems quite content. It's GORGEOUS here today in the 50's and he appears to be basking in his glory. The kids will get him out when they get home and run around with him.



> I don't like to leave them alone in the fenced yard. I have had people try to interact with them over the fence.


 People do that? Wow. I think part of my problem is I was raised pet savvy. I have no fear of dogs (other than the liability of OWNING one) but have always had a sense of care and caution around ANY dog. Always. I raised my kids this way BECAUSE we have big dogs. I had the infant/toddlers who would have, if not properly taught, kissed ANY big dog smack on the lips "Doggies are nice!" because OUR dog was. I knew that the key to keeping my kids as safe as possible was that they understand that dogs are not toys, trampolines or ponies and that not every dog was OUR dog. I don't care if you have a chihuahua inside a fence, I'm not bothering/pestering it. 

On that note we have been recommended to add a "Dogs on Property" sign to our drive as a warning. Apparently this is less liability than "beware of dogs" but still gives anyone visiting a heads up.


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## xenos56 (Jan 30, 2011)

You mention that he is a bit timid, which isn't good. Combine that with an invisible fence, which can create confusion and stress on an animal, it may equal trouble. These fences don't prevent others from coming through and for the dog - it creates a wider barrier of "his domain." As soon as someone crosses that barrier, the dog can act up like a tied dog may - ready to attack/bite. Think of how a dog reacts on a leash. The distance of the leash from you to him is his domain, if you will. No one should come near this area, in the timid/skittish dog's mind. Take that leash off and the stress is released, i.e., the dog is calmer and doesn't feel as cornered or territorial. 

You have two options - a behaviorist or a rescue. I'd go with the professional first and if they're qualified, take their report on your dog to heart. If they suggest your dog be given up, then only give him up to a rescue and not to someone else. They are able to evaluate him and find an appropriate home after some training.


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