# My Shepherd growled and Nipped at my son when kenneling



## Insayn (Aug 18, 2013)

I wasn't home when it occurred, but my wife told my 8 year old son to put Sniper in his "box" (kennel) and he growled and snapped at him when he was about to close the door. She said it was a growl like when a stranger comes to the door. Sniper is 1 year and 9 months and not neutered. He has always been a hyper dog and hard to handle. Any words of advise? My wife is concerned as our other female shepherd never behaved this way (She passed away before we had Sniper).


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

First, for your own sanity- comparing Sniper to your previous dog is absolutely useless. They're individuals, and any two dogs can be as different as night and day- so don't torture yourself thinking about that, or if it's a breed thing, etc.

This sort of thing is really hard to evaluate over the internet...were there resources involved? What sort of training do you do with him? How much exercise does he get? Can you elaborate on "hard to handle"? It sounds like you might be in over your head with him, based on that statement- finding a good trainer experienced with GSD's would be advisable.


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## Insayn (Aug 18, 2013)

There were no resources involved, it was just his evening time to go to the kennel. I've done the usual training like sit, lay down, no, up, box with rewards and praise (treats or peanut butter on a spoon). He will perform the commands when you turn your back he gets up and does his thing. So we go back to square one. When walking him he pulls. We've done the choke chain and training collar that helps. We've tried electronic training collar utilizing the tone as a warning then if necessary, the stimulus. When I'm home he's a big lap dog that resembles a cat. He's always rubbing on our legs or wants his head in our lap.


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

I would contact a trainer! 
My ten year old son gets out and crates all three of my shepherds and they never growl at him. My big male, Sinister the most he has ever done is moan to tell my six year old enough is enough. All my dogs have never and will never growl at my kids. 
My dogs know their place in the pack. My 2 kids train and work with all 3 dogs. My six year old can walk my girl Athena and she knows he is the leader. 
I would start NILIF with him. Training is a family affair everyone must be involved! 
Also make sure you ALWAYS supervise the dog around your son. Kids must be taught how to handle and interact with large dogs. That is why training a dog as a family is important.
SINISTER @ 8 months walking loose leash with my then 5 year old son:


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

To get some insight into what your son might have done differently than you when kenneling,try observing him next time.There might be a simple explanation(shoved the door against her?) If you can't figure it out you really should enlist a trainers help to work through the problem.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are a few malinois here that try that sort of thing. There are several ways to fix it. One you kind of interrupt the pattern by
Throwing food to the back of the crate then closing so there isn't that confrontation as the crate door closes. 

Another option is put an e collar on the dog and when they do it you zap em for it.

It doesn't mean your dog is dangerous or going to bite your son outside of that picture. It isn't a major crisis or anything it is just an annoyance. Some dogs get weird back to the wall with something closing in on them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I have a 10yr old son Insayn, I'm never going to have him crate my dogs. You're never going to figure out for sure what lead to it or why, but there's virtually no way to keep your son's face back out of the way enough to keep him from getting bit right there. 

If he ever does do that with you, I like the leash better then an ecollar. A line light enough to feed through the door so you can do a little bell ringing into the door. Its one of those things I want there to be no doubt where the correction is coming from.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it happens and at an intensity the dog wishes to avoid and the connection between behavior and consequence is made.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It matters. I don't want it to be just a consequence for an action. It was directed at me. Issues like that, I'd rather deal with it with the leash.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Fair enough


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm well if the pros are here I have a question/suggestion, I don't have kids and tend not to offer suggestion in dealing with problems to those that do!

But generally when I have a problem instead of dealing with a behavior I don't want. I rather train a behavior I do want! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE

So instead of trying to bait the dog into making a mistake in order to give a correction, i'd train a new behavior I do want "Place" and "maybe" the attitude about the "crate" would disappear??

Just a thought.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Well, I'm no "pro", but I do spend a pretty good amount of time on a place command. That said, snapping at me isn't a "mistake" and I'm not going to just wish it away.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Question for Baillif and Steve..... would it be possible for a correction in this circumstance to make the problem worse?If the dog was feeling fearful by being backed into a small space would you try to recondition to alleviate the fear before determining he was just being an a-hole?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Insayn, what is the normal routine at your house for crating? Do you say "crate" (or whatever), and the dog goes in and waits for the door to close? Or do you have to grab the dog's collar and make him get in the crate? Do all members of the family handle him the same way? Or does he tend to not 'listen' to your son? 

I'm asking, because almost all the growling/snapping/nipping issues people come here to ask for help with origninate from people grabbing their dog and making them do something. Not acceptable to growl or nip, but you should have the kind of relationship/expectations/training going on that grabbing is NOT required. You tell the dog something, the dog does it. Period. That is built up with a lot of positve association and obedience exercises through time.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> Question for Baillif and Steve..... would it be possible for a correction in this circumstance to make the problem worse?If the dog was feeling fearful by being backed into a small space would you try to recondition to alleviate the fear before determining he was just being an a-hole?


You'll already know long before this if the dog is fearful about going in the crate, then I wouldn't do what I said. I'm sure this is more along the lines of what Lucia pointed out, more of a frustration/ redirecting kinda thing not exactly directly related to the crate itself. But still not where I would put my kids.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The only way correcting a dog would make this behavior worse is if you a. Sent the dog into defense because of how you decided to correct the dog in that picture or b. The intensity was too low to stop the progression of the behavior and it jazzed the dog up instead and the dog "won" somehow. 

I think this behavior is just related to a form of barrier frustration/aggression


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Either way as Steve said you shouldn't have your kid put himself in that situation anymore. There is potential for further issues.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Got it.Thanks!I would never let kids handle an iffy dog either.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Well, I'm no "pro", but I do spend a pretty good amount of time on a place command. That said, snapping at me isn't a "mistake" and I'm not going to just wish it away.


Well you sound like a Pro so...sorry?:blush:

I have no problem with a swift, sure and certain, hard correction! The "problem" is these doss are smart! They know who they can pull crap on and who they can't pull crap on!

My guy "never" gave me a cross look! If he had he would have gotten that swift sure and certain hard correction! 

But what he did do was turn on the top dog in the pack (sadly I never got that one worked out..Gunther was on a ten year clock. ) Then decide that he did not much care for company and the public in general!

I wasn't going to involve anyone else in "fixing" his people issues but what I did do was teach him how I expected him to behave! Who Pets my puppy or dog...Leerburgh. I managed his space and taught him how to behave around people and dogs.

Pretty much the only "correction" consisted of an occasional "No" or 'Stay" he did as he'd been trained,ignore people...conflict free!

Rocky is still not a big people fan but he knows what I expect and that's his default behavior...stay clear or stay here. 

I'm thinking the "Place Command" maybe the way to go? Train a specific behavior and then you can correct a dog if he fails to obey what he knows! 

Lots easier then trying to duplicate a "my dog may or my not have growled at X, on a Monday when the wind was blowing from the east at 7 o'clock" and I was not there, kind of thing. 

No point in starting a battle you don't have to have!

Just my take.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its not as simple as you starting a battle. What happens if he snaps at you for correcting him when he didn't go to his place? That's what this is, you just have to adjust for it being in a crate instead of in the open.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

There could be so many things going on here, that it is difficult to give advice on something such as this over the Internet.

How does the dog view your son? As a leader, or as a littermate?

How much does your son handle the dog?

How does your son handle the dog?

What happens when your dog is kenneled? Does he usually go in there willingly?


I never let my children of that age handle the dog. The dog knew they were young, and always tried to push the boundaries. He doesn't do that anymore with my now 12-year-old, but he still does it with the 10-year-old.

When crating, I always threw in some irresistible treats, and the dog always went in happily. But I never had the kids do it, if only because I didn't trust them to latch the door properly.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yup. As far as I'm concerned if my dog is growling or biting at me for whatever the dog started that battle. I wouldn't just let it go. If I was dealing with a man eater I might go about it in a more impersonal way like ecollar but no way I just let it slide.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Its not as simple as you starting a battle. What happens if he snaps at you for correcting him when he didn't go to his place? That's what this is, you just have to adjust for it being in a crate instead of in the open.


Well in part that is my "assumption!"

You first "train" the "Place Command" then yes the crate becomes just another "Place."

If he does not accept the "crate" as a "Place" well then...now you know what the issue is and it's the primary handlers job to "deal" with it.

If simply training a "Place Command" results in serious non compliance??? Well then you got a dog with some serious issues...better to bring it out in the open then to be taken by surprise!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> I never let my children of that age handle the dog. The dog knew they were young, and always tried to push the boundaries. He doesn't do that anymore with my now 12-year-old, but he still does it with the 10-year-old.
> 
> When crating, I always threw in some irresistible treats, and the dog always went in happily. But I never had the kids do it, if only because I didn't trust them to latch the door properly.


Well there is always that! Most likely the Ed Frawley approach?

As I said I don't have kids, but every thing I taught my dogs, they will do for me or my wife.


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## Insayn (Aug 18, 2013)

Sorry I couldn't reply while at work. My son has little interaction with Sniper. He's too little to walk him but they do play occasionally in the house. His crating isn't a form of punishment. I give him the "box" command and he goes in there willingly without any fuss. He obeys my wife as well, though she has trouble walking him because of his size. He he drug her down a sidewalk chasing a rabbit not too long ago. After reading your posts I am thinking he didn't want to go in his crate and that he wasn't going to let my son be the one to send him there. He isn't use to his voice for commands and his size is definitely larger than my son. I'll make sure to discuss with my wife not to put them in the position of crating. I'll also move to the NILIF training.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Insayn said:


> Sorry I couldn't reply while at work.


You don' t need to apologize for having a life! 



Insayn said:


> My son has little interaction with Sniper. He's too little to walk him but they do play occasionally in the house. His crating isn't a form of punishment. I give him the "box" command and he goes in there willingly without any fuss.


"Box" I like that! By and large your not going to find alot of anti crate folks here. Never used one myself...never had a GSD before either, still don't use one for Rocky. But...most likely will use one for our new dog because of Rocky! I don't expect trouble...but I'm not taking chances!



Insayn said:


> He obeys my wife as well, though she has trouble walking him because of his size. He he drug her down a sidewalk chasing a rabbit not too long ago. After reading your posts I am thinking he didn't want to go in his crate and that he wasn't going to let my son be the one to send him there. He isn't use to his voice for commands and his size is definitely larger than my son.


Aww the walk! OK I use this all the time:http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html A few things in there but the link on loose leash training is key. 
There is also a link on dog reactivity, but again notice the loose leash while he works the dog!

That is going to be the key to your rabbit issue! I taught all my dogs to walk this way and then with no leash. This is the way I was able to teach,my Boxer (Struddell) with no leash, that she was allowed to chase rabbits to the North towards the Mountains but not South towards the Hwy!




Insayn said:


> I'll make sure to discuss with my wife not to put them in the position of crating. I'll also move to the NILIF training.


Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog is 21 months old, and you have had him since he was, 2 months old? 19 months old? I think it makes a difference, really. 

If this dog was raised with your youngster, then no flippin' way in the fiery pit is that ok. I don't give a darn if the dog is neutered or not, scared of being in the crate until next week, or not used to your son giving commands. No way. 

How do ya all set the dog up for a correction, if he does this to you? What if he NEVER does it to YOU because you are an adult and he knows he can't do that with you? And even if that works, what does it teach him? It teaches him not to do that with YOU? 

So what do you do, put an e-collar on him and zap the **** out of him when he tries to snap at the son? Really? Isn't that just as likely to get the kid bit? 

So you are going to live in a home where your kid gets snapped at by a dog when the kid tells the dog to go into a crate? If a dog is jumped on my kid, or even stepped on by a kid, and snaps, fine, that is understandable. Teach the kid to be more careful and not land on the dog. But I'm not going to do what YOU tell me to do -- that is not even it, because those dogs won't come or will dance around, but snap at the kid? 

If the dog and kid have been living in the same household for 19 months, and the dog is snapping at the kid, I don't know if that dog would live very long. I don't know how I would trust the dog with the kid, and no, you can't have an 8 year old and a GSD that are NEVER alone together. 

My nieces are 8. They do not live with me. They visit occasionally, and I bring dogs to their house about once a week. They crate the dogs. We are working on letting them walk them, not alone, but letting them handle the dogs. I let the dog that just turned 2 at the end of January sleep with them Sunday night. I can leave him in with them while I take care of the others. You shouldn't have to walk on egg shells around a dog, and neither should your kid. And you shouldn't have to be there every moment either, it is just impossible anyway. How can anyone live in a situation where if they answer the door, the dog might take his opportunity to chew on the kid? 

If you rescued this dog in the last few months, then I think it is a lot different. The dog might have had a tormentor who was a young male human. For some reason, young male humans are not always trustworthy in this respect. The dog might still be off balance and trying to figure out who is who, etc. 

Maybe the canine equivalence to bootcamp will make a different for this dog. I don't know how you can ever trust him though. 

I'd neuter him. 
I'd get him in classes. 
I am simply not sure what I would do with the child and dog. I wouldn't want to risk the kid getting bitten by the dog by having the child participate in the training, but I also think that not teaching the kid to do training will not make the child more of a leader figure to the dog. 

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. I'm sorry for being such a downer.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> The dog is 21 months old, and you have had him since he was, 2 months old? 19 months old? I think it makes a difference, really.
> 
> If this dog was raised with your youngster, then no flippin' way in the fiery pit is that ok. I don't give a darn if the dog is neutered or not, scared of being in the crate until next week, or not used to your son giving commands. No way.
> 
> ...


Voice of reason.^^^ I had a dog when my kids were 8 to 10 yrs. old range. The dog demonstrated one day that she could not be trusted around kids. Nothing bad happened, but I could not allow the situation to continue with my kids and my neighbor's kids. The breeder took custody of the dog two days later. 

The breeder then placed the dog with someone else and the dog was back at the breeder's in a week's time. (I admire the breeder for calling and reporting this to me.) The dog was not trustworthy. The breeder said she would keep the dog and never place her.

I would never take chances with children-ever. 

Every parent makes their own decisions.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Way too much drama infused into a situation that isn't that serious. I've seen this behavior the OP is describing and its a behavior that I've seen often only appearing in that one picture. It's barrier aggression related and also related to a lack of relationship between the dog and the kid. It doesn't mean the dog is dangerous or unstable or aggressive towards children.

Ponder this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJcRHvzU3Zs


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> After reading your posts I am thinking he didn't want to go in his crate and that he wasn't going to let my son be the one to send him there.


And thats probably the crux of it Insayn. Just keep an eye on how they interact under other circumstances, look for your dog to be respectful of your son. The dogs we've owned that were the best with kids, it was real obvious with no training. You'll see the kind of gentle, self control they show around them.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Insayn - If Sniper has never showed any type of aggressive behavior in the past towards your son or any other family member, I would highly consider Sniper may have been acting out due to some sort of pain stimuli. 

I am NOT making an excuse for a dog to EVER growl at a person, but if this behavior has never happened before, I'd have to consider the reason behind it and not just the punishment for doing so. 

I've had a dog snag a nail on the crate wire as he entered, he turned and snapped. The dog jerked his leg as the crate held fast to the nail, so I knew what happened. 

If it is normal for Sniper to crate without complaint, I do not believe Sniper would respond with aggression towards your son for shutting the kennel gate unless the dog was responding to a stimuli.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Not so much "way to much drama". The next time the dog might decide to "snap" at the child because he looked at him wrong. Or bite him in the face..........
I agree with Selzer...............


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

selzer said:


> How do ya all set the dog up for a correction, if he does this to you? What if he NEVER does it to YOU because you are an adult and he knows he can't do that with you? And even if that works, what does it teach him? It teaches him not to do that with YOU?


You've never set a dog up to repeat a behavior to correct for it?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Way too much drama infused into a situation that isn't that serious. I've seen this behavior the OP is describing and its a behavior that I've seen often only appearing in that one picture. It's barrier aggression related and also related to a lack of relationship between the dog and the kid. It doesn't mean the dog is dangerous or unstable or aggressive towards children.
> 
> Ponder this
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJcRHvzU3Zs



Crazy.....I have no idea why they don't do what seems so obvious...is there a force field or land mines where the open gate is? 

Curious as to your thoughts ....


SuperG


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

People assume dogs think like people do. They don't. They have very limited cognitive ability and are mostly slaves to learning or reacting through operant or classical conditioning. The dogs are barrier aggressive but they are not dog aggressive. This means with the fence not present they get on just great with each other. 

But because of their conditioning to show aggression when there is a barrier there (what created it I can only guess but it was either frustration, fear, or something of the sort) they go nuts and show the reactive behavior because that is what they are conditioned to do when those cues and stimuli are present. Remove the barrier and the behavior would stop.

People with leash reactive dogs see their dogs lunge and bark like crazy at people or other dogs when there is a leash around their neck, but the majority of the time those same dogs get along great with those same people or dogs when the leash isn't there. 

So when people automatically assume a dog will bite or snap or growl at a kid because it has done it in one very specific circumstance in which there is a barrier and a dog with his back to the wall they are showing their lack of understanding about dogs. When they assume you can fix an issue like that by attacking it in a very roundabout and indirect way like suggesting NILF they are again showing their lack of understanding about dogs. 

It is true if left unchecked behavior like that can eventually bleed over into other aspects of life, but the dog would have to be able to practice the behavior for that to happen.

There is a reason Steve and I both choose to set up the same circumstance that occurred (modifying as necessary for safety of course) so we can correct the dog. Because the dog needs to be corrected in that picture for the behavior modification to work.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

What is happening on the video is an example of barrier aggression. It develops out of frustration when two dogs want to meet but can't and out of that frustration comes anger and then the other dog feeds into that anger and gets angry himself and next thing you know you have two dogs fence fighting that wouldn't otherwise mind each other. It is an addictive behavior because on some level it is fun to the dog. They get adrenaline rushes and many of them catch type of high off it.

It can also emerge out of fear. A dog trying to defend what territory it can from another dog but a confrontation can't happen because of the barrier and the dogs again become addicted to the behavior because they catch that adrenaline rush from it. If the defending dog "wins" by somehow outlasting the other dog that has to leave for whatever reason it gets a surge of victory endorphin's in addition to the rush. 

The barrier becomes a cue for the behavior at some point, in a similar way to how a decoy or a helper agitating with equipment on is a set of cues to get a dog to attack that has been trained for sport.

No matter what the cause of the barrier aggression or fence fighting it becomes a self reinforcing behavior at some point because of the physiological rush the dogs get for engaging in it. The same is true for leash reactivity.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Baillif said:


> People assume dogs think like people do. They don't. They have very limited cognitive ability and are mostly slaves to learning or reacting through operant or classical conditioning. The dogs are barrier aggressive but they are not dog aggressive. This means with the fence not present they get on just great with each other.
> 
> But because of their conditioning to show aggression when there is a barrier there (what created it I can only guess but it was either frustration, fear, or something of the sort) they go nuts and show the reactive behavior because that is what they are conditioned to do when those cues and stimuli are present. Remove the barrier and the behavior would stop.
> 
> ...



Thank you for explaining your thoughts more thoroughly. What is common sense knowledge for you as a trainer, is not so obvious to me. This is why I work one on one with a behaviorist. I need training. My dog is fine . . . .


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thanks Baillif, we appreciate the insight! 

Want to add, this isn't a "my dog cornered my six year old and growled in her face thread and I don't have any idea what I am doing,situation???"

Simplest and best solution has been given...don't let the child put the dog in the "Box." 

So moving on....


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Bailiff,

Interesting thoughts and explanation....appreciate it.



SuperG


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Way too much drama infused into a situation that isn't that serious. I've seen this behavior the OP is describing and its a behavior that I've seen often only appearing in that one picture. It's barrier aggression related and also related to a lack of relationship between the dog and the kid. It doesn't mean the dog is dangerous or unstable or aggressive towards children.
> 
> Ponder this
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJcRHvzU3Zs


I get barrier aggression. A lot of dogs at work show barrier aggression towards me and my staff but I am not the dogs master, I am a care taker at a the kennel. Never have one of my own dogs show barrier aggression towards me or my children. That's just not cool and is extremely dangerous!!!! No child is mentally sharp enough to react with speed needed to avoid a bite. If it is truly barrier aggression ugh don't let the child EVER crate the dog!!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That would be a sensible management solution, yes.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Barrier aggression is fine against another dog or a stranger. Barrier aggression toward a child raised with the young dog, no. That dog has either not been taught to respect the child as a critter not to be molested, or the dog does not have the capacity for it. Meaning, that when this dog has had enough, or is excited enough, he will bite even a child that lives in his home. 

A snap is beyond a bark or a growl. It means, if you don't stop what you are doing and back down, I am going to bite you. I just don't know how I could forgive myself if the dog did bite the child after such a warning. If you and the trainer and the child doesn't get it right, someone is going to get hurt, and placing a kid at risk like that, because some guys on the internet say this is barrier aggression, if you remove the barrier, nothing bad will ever happen again. I just don't know.

This is a young dog, who is not fully mature yet. He has always been difficult to handle according to the owner. It sounds like he is given a lot leeway and not the kind of dog who is ok with that. It sounds like the owners don't have a handle on the dog. And the dog is snapping at their kid. Maybe having someone experienced in canine behavior evaluate the dog-handlers interaction, they can assess the situation and have a plan which will manage everything including the child, the dog, and the crate. 

And, maybe, this dog isn't a good candidate for a family dog. And maybe, if they can get a handle on the dog, maybe as he matures he can become a great dog. I just think that a dog raised with a kid shouldn't be snapping at the kid. If they truly get themselves into a zone where they must aggress toward whatever or whoever is there, then they are simply not safe to be living with children.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

This thread was very interesting to me because I have had trouble understanding Newlie's behavior at the fence in our backyard. Newlie has been with me over two years and we have had the same neighbors the whole time. Newlie likes our neighbors, they throw the ball for him. etc so he is very familiar with him. Sometimes, he is ok with them being by "his fence," but other times he barks and carries on like he has never seen them before in his life. This same dog will cheerfully accept them coming into our house when I am not home, like when my husband was in the hospital and I would ask them to turn Newlie out and feed him since I was going to be late. He also never seemed to mind when they entered the yard using the gate to cut the grass, etc. He would just watch them and sometimes try to entice them to throw the ball for him.

But I will say that I have never seen him show any aggression for any person. No growling, lifting his lip, no showing his teeth, no snapping. He grumbles at me if I am doing something he doesn't like, but I don't pay any attention and he never goes beyond grumbling. I don't know if I could trust my child around a dog that has already snapped at him like that.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I never trust dogs around young kids or young kids around dogs. They're animals (the dogs and sometimes the kids) You can never forget that. I don't care how good they've been in the past. They're akin to a knife or a sharp pair of scissors. If you wouldn't have it around your young kid you should keep the dog at a distance from them too.


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

I feel kids can be trusted with dogs if taught how to interact with large animals. My kids and dogs coexist beautifully. The danger in this situation the dog is not trustworthy with the young child! A trainer IMHO must be involved because a dog raised in a home with children since puppyhood should never display barrier aggression to the child unless child has mistreated the animal.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> I never trust dogs around young kids or young kids around dogs. They're animals (the dogs and sometimes the kids) You can never forget that. I don't care how good they've been in the past. They're akin to a knife or a sharp pair of scissors. If you wouldn't have it around your young kid you should keep the dog at a distance from them too.


You are dealing with different dogs. My nieces don't even live here and they can go in any of my kennels. They can walk my dogs. They can sleep with the dogs. I can release a bitch with pups and the kids are fine. They can be there when the bitch whelps the pups. They can be in the box with the bitch and the pups when they are days old. Sorry. But, that is what this breed is supposed to be. Read the book. Von Stephanitz expected this breed to be good with children, has pictures of them having little tea parties with the kids. A dog that is unsafe around the owner's children who live with him and the dog, that dog is not right. 

They are animals who know enough to follow the two year old out onto the roof, and herd him away way from the edge until the neighbors saw and were able to pull the child to safety. They are animals who are smart enough to bring aid to their owner when he needs it. They are smart enough to know that they must be careful or gentle aroound the little human that lives in the house.

Having a dog you cannot trust with children that are regulars in your home is like keeping dynamite and matches in the kid's desk drawer.

The kids know where my knives, scissors, and where the gun is at my home. They use the knives and scissors at their home. 8 years old is 3rd grade, sorry. They are into everything, they are around my dogs, they ride horses. They swim. So far the worst injury has come from swimming when the kid busted her head open and needed quite a few stitches. But the same one was stepped on by a horse and got black and blue. I have them use knives in cooking, they've never been cut, but they have been burnt cooking, and they use scissors for school. They could not possibly live in a house with German Shepherds and be kept apart from them. Sorry. 

Dogs should not be snapping at kids, especially kids they live with.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Insayn, just in case it came across wrong, when Bailiff says "Related to" or I say "Along the lines of" I read that as we're qualifying our statement and not meaning it as an absolute. Its a possibility to think about. When we mention the safety of your son being the priority, I was sure that you not only already understood that but saw that a couple guy's on the internet were just pointing out we think the same on it. 

I thought pay attention to your dogs other interactions with your son was reasonable, and again, I thought it was in line with what you clearly are already doing. Maybe it didn't read the same to you as it did to me, so if any part of anything didnt make sense, let me know.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Dogs should not be snapping at kids, especially kids they live with.


Who said he should or even that it was ok??


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dogs might behave around kids 999 times out of 1000 but then there is that 1 time when something unfortunate happens. Doesn't matter if Von Stephanitz popped those puppies out himself. Animal behavior is variable. Best not to risk it.

Not saying my dogs go for kids. They never have. I haven't risked it either though or at least not without the dog under control and supervised tightly. i would never put a kid or the dogs at risk by allowing them to be alone unsupervised. Especially when in my case those dogs are trained in protection sports.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> To get some insight into what your son might have done differently than you when kenneling,try observing him next time.There might be a simple explanation(shoved the door against her?) If you can't figure it out you really should enlist a trainers help to work through the problem.


And...that would be a text book example of baiting the dog into making a mistake! Creating a battle that does not have to be fought!

Don't have kids myself, but if I did, I would not be using them in experiments in dog training!

Just saying.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I agree with Sue. I must have been really, really spoiled by Annie. My kids were young, when I brought her home from the pound. She was 2 years old and so was my youngest child. It quickly became evident that she loved those kids more than life itself. Initially, I was very cautious having her around the kids. We were just getting to know each other. Before long, I insisted that Annie be with them at all times. And yes, accidents happen between kids and dogs. She was stepped on many times. She never reacted. She was a million out of a millions kind of dog. That is what I expect from a family dog.

OP, I would definitely consult a trainer and try to figure out what happened. It is hard not being there to see. I brought a dog into my home once that couldn't be trusted around my kids. She was gone the same day.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Something to ponder. My two worst dog related injuries were not caused by bites. Both were unintentional flying headbutts. One of which occurred at such force it opened my jaw and needed 8 stitches including a ligated artery. The other was a concussion and a pretty nasty gash a long my eyebrow. Both were caused by friendly dogs that got excited and I was wrong place wrong time.

They don't have to bite you to hurt you. They dont even have to have intention.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> Dogs might behave around kids 999 times out of 1000 but then there is that 1 time when something unfortunate happens. Doesn't matter if Von Stephanitz popped those puppies out himself. Animal behavior is variable. Best not to risk it.
> 
> Not saying my dogs go for kids. They never have. I haven't risked it either though or at least not without the dog under control and supervised tightly. i would never put a kid or the dogs at risk by allowing them to be alone unsupervised. Especially when in my case those dogs are trained in protection sports.


Do you have children? Have you had children and dogs at the same time?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Don't have kids don't plan on it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I agree with Sue. I must have been really, really spoiled by Annie. My kids were young, when I brought her home from the pound. She was 2 years old and so was my youngest child. It quickly became evident that she loved those kids more than life itself. Initially, I was very cautious having her around the kids. We were just getting to know each other. Before long, I insisted that Annie be with them at all times. And yes, accidents happen between kids and dogs. She was stepped on many times. She never reacted. She was a million out of a millions kind of dog. *That is what I expect from a family dog.
> 
> OP, I would definitely consult a trainer and try to figure out what happened. It is hard not being there to see. I brought a dog into my home once that couldn't be trusted around my kids. She was gone the same day.*




Agree completely. I was raised around dogs and so were my four kids.

The dogs were fantastic around kids and the kids and dogs learned a lot from each other. I was a single custodial parent for many years and I felt safer with my kids home with the dogs and the kids felt safer. 

If for some reason a dog didn't mesh with my kids it would have been gone as quick as Jan's dog was. Never happened though.

I'm not going to tip toe around a dog who growls and nips at a child.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> Something to ponder. My two worst dog related injuries were not caused by bites. Both were unintentional flying headbutts. One of which occurred at such force it opened my jaw and needed 8 stitches including a ligated artery. The other was a concussion and a pretty nasty gash a long my eyebrow. Both were caused by friendly dogs that got excited and I was wrong place wrong time.


Of course there can be injuries when children and dogs, or adults and dogs are together. I have said many times that my dogs will never hurt me intentionally, but they are going to kill me on accident. Yes, I have been on the other end of the head butts, and yes, there is nothing in the universe harder than the skull of a GSD.

But we put kids up on horses too, and yes, you can die around horses. It does happen. We can't stop living because something might be dangerous. We minimize the dangers. If we have a stallion that is fighting everyone we do not send the eight year old to the barn to tack him up. But kids are going to fall off, and get stepped on. We can make them wear a hat, when they are doing anything with horses, but even with a hat(helmet) you can get badly hurt. 

You can die swimming, and bicycling. Yes. But being ripped apart by your own dog is just something no kid should go through, particularly if there are precursers to the event. And if you go through the list of deaths by dogs, almost all of them have events which indicate these are not out of the blue.

If you dog wakes up one day and seriously attacks your kid, you get a pass, yes; but if that dog is hard to handle in general and has already snapped at your small child, while nothing will happen unless the kid dies; and if the dog has a bite history -- CPS should be knocking on your door.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> Don't have kids don't plan on it.


You seem to know a lot about dogs and behavior, but yes, you don't understand family dynamics when it comes to living with kids and dogs. Even having the kids for just a weekend, I can tell you that it is impossible to supervise them every moment -- be close enough to prevent a bad thing from happening. You have to _know _your dogs and you can certainly have confidence in them around kids. Yes, they are animals, but we can certainly be 100% certain that the dog will not bite the child without very good cause (ie. kid is shoving pencil down the dog's ear canal.) We can definitely trust our dogs around kids and our kids around dogs. And most parents who have a clue about dogs will consider a dog that acts aggressively toward a youngster that lives in their home as a dog that has something seriously wrong with it, and they will either find it another home without children or euthanize it.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Baillif said:


> Something to ponder. My two worst dog related injuries were not caused by bites. Both were unintentional flying headbutts. One of which occurred at such force it opened my jaw and needed 8 stitches including a ligated artery. The other was a concussion and a pretty nasty gash a long my eyebrow. Both were caused by friendly dogs that got excited and I was wrong place wrong time.
> 
> They don't have to bite you to hurt you. They dont even have to have intention.


One of the other really amazing things about GSDs who are good with kids - they are amazingly gentle with them. They seem to have an innate understanding of "This is a fragile being. I need to be careful." My 2 year old had a disability, was super small and was unsteady on his feet. Annie never knocked him over. She was naturally clumsy, but went out of her way to be careful around him. And she did listen to him. If he said, move, she moved.

Every dog is just not right for every home. I am in no way saying the OPs dog is a monster, but perhaps he should be in a home without young children. The dog I took in that was not good with children was a springer spaniel. She went to a lovely adult only home. 

I love dogs. I love them dearly, but not at the expense of my kids.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

selzer said:


> You seem to know a lot about dogs and behavior, but yes, you don't understand family dynamics when it comes to living with kids and dogs. Even having the kids for just a weekend, I can tell you that it is impossible to supervise them every moment -- be close enough to prevent a bad thing from happening. You have to _know _your dogs and you can certainly have confidence in them around kids. Yes, they are animals, but we can certainly be 100% certain that the dog will not bite the child without very good cause (ie. kid is shoving pencil down the dog's ear canal.) We can definitely trust our dogs around kids and our kids around dogs. And most parents who have a clue about dogs will consider a dog that acts aggressively toward a youngster that lives in their home as a dog that has something seriously wrong with it, and they will either find it another home without children or euthanize it.


I have to agree with most of Selzers posts. 
I think it's important to consider that growling is just communication. I do not correct my dogs for growling and have gotten no where in the past when I did this. Evaluate the reason _why_ growling occurred, what is your dog telling you?  
Before I knew better I corrected my childhood mutt for growling when I came near his food, the result of this was I had a dog who got super nervous every time I came near him eating and would just snap, no warning growl.
I would set back and evaluate how your dog otherwise acts with your child and just maybe avoid having him crate the dog if you want to keep it. You can also work on the dog's attitude to the crate. Only one of mine out of 4 actually like crates but they all go in if I tell them to because I built value for it and they respect me. 9/10 times I give treats for going in, it cuts down on the conflict, is such an easy thing to do, and changes their attitudes about it.


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## Insayn (Aug 18, 2013)

I appreciate all the help and comments. I asked my son to explain what happened exactly. He said Sniper had gone to his kennel and in the process of closing the door Sniper put his paw onto the door to keep him from closing it all the way. My son closed the door and was fixing to latch it when Sniper growled and nipped at his finger that was protruding through the cage to hold the door. He said all he felt was wet lips.
Now to quell the imagination and assumptions everyone creates in their minds when reading a short internet post. We've had him since he was able to brought home. He acts like a 90 pound puppy, being passive with the ears sitting back most of the time and always wanting to play or be in your lap all the time. He's never done anything like this before. I do know he barks at our house cat when she walks by all the time when he is kenneled, but doesn't give a **** when he is out. At our old house our kennel would be moved up to 5 feet from its spot when we return home sometimes. I am not some puss that can't control or discipline him. He listens to my every word and if he bit my child I would shoot him, stab him, decapitate him and wear him like a poncho or perhaps tan his hid and hang it next to my bear skins.
We've worked with him everyday for about an hour since the initial post also using NILIF. My son won't be kenneling him at all. Whenever Sniper is out he will always be in our immediate supervision. My kids generally play upstairs and he doesn't go up there.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

So basically as I said before no crisis or drama to be had here.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Insayn said:


> I appreciate all the help and comments. I asked my son to explain what happened exactly. He said Sniper had gone to his kennel and in the process of closing the door Sniper put his paw onto the door to keep him from closing it all the way. My son closed the door and was fixing to latch it when Sniper growled and nipped at his finger that was protruding through the cage to hold the door. He said all he felt was wet lips.
> Now to quell the imagination and assumptions everyone creates in their minds when reading a short internet post. We've had him since he was able to brought home. He acts like a 90 pound puppy, being passive with the ears sitting back most of the time and always wanting to play or be in your lap all the time. He's never done anything like this before. I do know he barks at our house cat when she walks by all the time when he is kenneled, but doesn't give a **** when he is out. At our old house our kennel would be moved up to 5 feet from its spot when we return home sometimes. I am not some puss that can't control or discipline him. He listens to my every word and if he bit my child I would shoot him, stab him, decapitate him and wear him like a poncho or perhaps tan his hid and hang it next to my bear skins.
> We've worked with him everyday for about an hour since the initial post also using NILIF. My son won't be kenneling him at all. Whenever Sniper is out he will always be in our immediate supervision. My kids generally play upstairs and he doesn't go up there.


If he bit your son it would be your fault, but somehow it always becomes the dogs fault....


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## Insayn (Aug 18, 2013)

And because it's my fault I'll make sure it never happens again. Because the dog is a robot and does exactly what it's programmed to do..******...period. They are living, breathing, thinking creatures.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

You said Sniper put his paw on the door to keep it from being closed. Is it possible he caught his paw in the door in some way and panicked or felt like he was being hurt in some way? I know mine has caught a toe in the kennel door before and freaked out because his toe got pulled painfully when he tried to get it out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Insayn said:


> I wasn't home when it occurred, but my wife told my 8 year old son to put Sniper in his "box" (kennel) and *he growled and snapped at him when he was about to close the door*. *She said it was a growl like when a stranger comes to the door*. Sniper is 1 year and 9 months and not neutered. *He has always been a hyper dog and hard to handle*. Any words of advise? My wife is concerned as our other female shepherd never behaved this way (She passed away before we had Sniper).





Insayn said:


> I appreciate all the help and comments. I asked my son to explain what happened exactly. He said Sniper had gone to his kennel and in the process of closing the door Sniper put his paw onto the door to keep him from closing it all the way. *My son closed the door and was fixing to latch it when Sniper growled and nipped at his finger that was protruding through the cage to hold the door. He said all he felt was wet lips.
> *Now to quell the imagination and assumptions everyone creates in their minds when reading a short internet post. We've had him since he was able to brought home. He acts like a 90 pound puppy, being passive with the ears sitting back most of the time and always wanting to play or be in your lap all the time. He's never done anything like this before. I do know he barks at our house cat when she walks by all the time when he is kenneled, but doesn't give a **** when he is out. At our old house our kennel would be moved up to 5 feet from its spot when we return home sometimes. I am not some puss that can't control or discipline him. He listens to my every word and if he bit my child I would shoot him, stab him, decapitate him and wear him like a poncho or perhaps tan his hid and hang it next to my bear skins.
> We've worked with him everyday for about an hour since the initial post also using NILIF. My son won't be kenneling him at all. Whenever Sniper is out he will always be in our immediate supervision. My kids generally play upstairs and he doesn't go up there.


 
The second post is a lot cleaner. Now it is a nip, where all the child felt was wet lips. Nips and snaps are really different things altogether. A nip can be communication: "watch where you are going you are going to step on my baby." I is not meant to back you up and stop your behavior, it is more like a little reminder -- here I am, here I am play with my ball, come on. A snap is "I am going to bite!" A snap has velocity and noise and scares the bejesus out of most people with zero contact. A nip usually doesn't scare people, even though there was some contact. They might not like the dog being pushy. But it is clearly not aggressive. I am going to go on a limb here and suggest that growling and nipping are not usually found in the same incident. 

What we do see is that when a situation arises, the first story tells of bites, growls, snaps, menacing behavior, hackles raised, a stare, etc. The second story often describes a different picture: a nip, a foot was stepped on, and so forth. This is not just this scenario, because you questioned your kid, and now have a better picture, but it is a common situation and I don't think people are lying exactly. I am not sure if our initial response to an incident is to over-react, or if with time we begin to see the situation as less than it was. 

So we have a dilemma. We have a nip with a growl, a growl that sounds like strangers are at the door -- that doesn't sound like something to totally ignore. And we have a situation were the kid feels wet lips -- not a nip, not a bite. Was it a snap?

You live with the dog. You can judge your dog better than any of us here. If I heard the second story, the rest of the story first, I probably wouldn't be as concerned about the incident. I probably wouldn't have paid as much attention to what the wife said about the growl. 

GSDs often put a foot on the crate door, no biggie, shut it anyway -- not on the foot. But they might want to stay out, and they may try to keep the door open. That doesn't bother me. But growling, loudly like a stranger is at the door, that I just have never encountered with mine.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> People assume dogs think like people do. They don't. They have very limited cognitive ability and are mostly slaves to learning or reacting through operant or classical conditioning. The dogs are barrier aggressive but they are not dog aggressive. This means with the fence not present they get on just great with each other.
> 
> But because of their conditioning to show aggression when there is a barrier there (what created it I can only guess but it was either frustration, fear, or something of the sort) they go nuts and show the reactive behavior because that is what they are conditioned to do when those cues and stimuli are present. Remove the barrier and the behavior would stop.
> 
> ...


Well I just got back from work so I have no idea where this thread is at the moment, But I do understand what your saying here.

As far as the OP is concerned...not letting the child put the dog away...would solve the problem! I don't really consider my solution ...train the Place Command as NILF as such?

But my take, train the "Place Command" first! Then tell the child to point to the crate and say "Place" am I missing something??


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The problem isn't the dog going in. The dog was resisting the door closing and then got snippy when the kid pushed it shut despite that resistance. A place command wouldn't fix that.

Not letting the kid kennel the dog would manage it. Having the kid throw a treat the dog wants to the back of the crate while he closes the door would also manage it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> The problem isn't the dog going in. The dog was resisting the door closing and then got snippy when the kid pushed it shut despite that resistance. A place command wouldn't fix that.
> 
> Not letting the kid kennel the dog would manage it. Having the kid throw a treat the dog wants to the back of the crate while he closes the door would also manage it.


Oh my poor head! But I think I see the difference! So in essence you can "manage" a problem..which is basically... t avoid it or fix a problem...which involves baiting the dog?


"Assuming this is correct" and this does seem to be situation specific, I would go with "avoid the situation" don't let the child put the dog away until. The dog/child develop a better bond. Did I miss anything?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK I think I waded through page 3 of this. So my appologies if pages 4,5 & 6 also contained this advise:


I'd work on crate games - going in the crate is always fun because it is always rewarded. After I got this down with the dog (he's skidding to get in there because he knows something good is going to happen), I'd consider introducing the kid into the picture. Why the hesitation? Because kids can get funky with commands, with tone etc. So if I did introduce the kid into the picture, it would be happening with pretty close supervision for quite a while.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Would probably work. The dog hasn't had the chance to practice that snippy behavior yet and it would change the way the dog felt about being crated by the kid.


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## Arsenal (Mar 8, 2015)

Insayn said:


> There were no resources involved, it was just his evening time to go to the kennel. I've done the usual training like sit, lay down, no, up, box with rewards and praise (treats or peanut butter on a spoon). He will perform the commands when you turn your back he gets up and does his thing


If the dog is getting up and doing his thing, then he's not really trained.

A trained dog will follow the commands whether or not there is an immediate reward and will do so for a reasonable time (a down stay for a long time can be an issue, but the dog should be able to keep a down stay for a few minutes if you leave the room).

When my last one got older, there was an occasional delay in responding to the commands (we had to tell him twice at times) bu that's different from not following the commands consistently.

I really think you would be better off working more on the training, and potentially bringing the dog to a good training class if you have one. The focus that they learn in training just makes life easier for everybody.

With regard to the issue in question, I've both been a child around GSDs and now have my own children around GSDs. As a young child, I was once "corrected" by the family GSD for climbing on a fence. He thought I shouldn't approach what he considered danger. It hurt but everybody was fine afterwards. My GSD never threatened my own children in any way.

I think part of that is that we never put the kids in a position of conflict with the dog. We did have the kids "walk" the dog but that consisted of the child handling the leash with us present. We also let the kids know the safe way to approach the dog and made sure they never took action the dog might find aggressive (such as climbing over the dog).

The result was that the relationship between the kids and the dog really was beautiful. When approached properly, the dog could not be more gentle (and we have photos of the kids as babies reaching into the dog's mouth). 

Here, we have a dog who is trained but not as well as he could, and a child asserting control.

It is a tough mix.

I would recommend, in addition to the training, working on setting up the kid for success. Don't have the child take action that the dog might find threatening. First work on real obedience and then incorporate the child into it.


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