# Kicking butt and taking names



## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Hokhmah, a Von Wolfstraum pup, has made her debut
s a yr ago just shy of certification... she has since had multiple missions and with all SAR, which is a team event, has done her part... but in Hokhmah fashion... She found crucial evidence in her 2nd search ever, a human blood drop in 40acres...she then trailed well over a mile on an 18hr plus 2ft snow/ice (footprints were few and far between) to just shy of a wlak up find (helicopter zoomed to our coordinates to make visual find, we were 5min away) on 2nd search, she then had a very hard evidence search where we were given information only after we gave our conclusions from search that confirmed everything she said.... air scent missions have proven fruitful (evidence found to confirm hypothesis)...

I have 3 certified SAR dogs in multiple disciplines (HRD land and water, evidence, trailing and air scent) and I stand impressed daily on her FULL commitment to her job... while my other two are excellent at what they do... she is EXCELLENT.... not sure how to make distinction... at just over 2yrs of age, she is just shy my 'go to' dog for every discipline... only maturity (she is a bit of an ass starting on any discipline as she is so amped and determined to Get. It. Done) will keep her from being the number one dog.... and this is speaking over dogs who have multiple finds.....

I will proudly endorse the Von Wolfstraum lineage.... just my experience...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

There is nothing like working an amazing dog. That starts, and can not exist, without genetics. I have nothing but deep respect for breeders that create these amazing animals.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

She has to be excellent. Anything less and she’s ruining the family name.


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## Sabre's Mom (Jul 27, 2018)

Mama Sabre is glowing with pride. Third generation SAR dog, genetics run strong.

One of Hokhmah's littermates obtained her HRD certification just before her 2nd birthday.

Thank you for all that you do!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Mama Sabre is doing her part too❤..... Hokhmah should be getting her water HRD and air scent certs early next year.... We will recertify in trailing, evidence, HRD then too..... I have 3 dogs to recertify in every discipline next year, ugh.... will be spreading it out if I can afford it, lol... 

Hokhmah is proud of her siblings, especially her big brother and mama


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Oh no you don’t get to slide back to second page without proper two or three day exposure. Your little Hokhmah sure grew up. 

I take my guy to a 40 acre field every so often so I have reference point of the enormity. Amazing! All of you are.

How old was the track before starting the search.


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

Congratulations on all your accomplishments with her. She is an amazing pup and, you are correct, genetics matter.


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

@Hineni7 
Congratulations on the successful missions. You must be an amazing and adaptable trainer/ handler to be able to maintain 3 certified dogs!

The scent theory content on your blog is so interesting and informative.

You and your team are truly an asset to the community. Bravo!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Heartandsoul, thanks for the bump ❤... the track was 18hrs old and we were 5min away from a walk up find (helicopter heard our coordinates and zoomed up for the visual find)... on the find of the blood drop it was an air scent situation... the evidence was a week and a half old.... 

how is your boy doing? you still doing tracking with him?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

thank you Chuck and Pam! 

yes, keeping 3 dogs sharp and ready for deployment is exhausting, lol! But oh so worth it... I have recerts coming up soon, so will break it up if able into 2 different sessions.... I have been blessed with very capable dogs who WANT to work... Thankfully, their multi discipline does not seem to weaken another discipline, in fact, it has actually strengthened the other disciplines... I do have to be careful to set up different scenarios for each dog, as running the same problem with each dog I have found the dogs can 'cheat' lol..... so I try to always have a different area for each dog... 

Hokhmah has been amazing to watch grow and develop.. her talent is innate, but seeing the maturity in odor and her drive to be exceptional is inspiring.... she is an exhausting dog though 😂😂.... she always wants to be working or playing... she has an off switch but it flips on if she even thinks we are about to do something... even just go to the bathroom 😂🙄


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

@Hineni7 drop of blood in a 40 acre parcel that is a week and 1/2 old. It does boggle the mind. 

I have left scented q tips in place and aged them for 5 days just to see what he could do and that was with rainy weather. Never question a dog’s nose.

He’s doing well but due to life and stuff put a hold after we triialed for an NW3 title. We blew one hide during the container search so no title but other than that we did good. Good thing it’s just a sport. Can’t imagine the amount of pressure you feel during a mission.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

OK, sorry clarification... drop of blood was actually about 3days that we are aware of, he was missing for a week prior.... the evidence search was a week and a half (guns)... sorry for confusion, both covered easily 40 acres..... and yes, don't question a well trained dogs nose... they don't lie and they are often waaaaayyyyyy more then wrong... and even 'wrong' is often proved right, but not within our natural visual reasoning (I. e., dog alerts on a tree on a steepnhillsid doing evidence/guns,nothing is there... tell IC what dog is going nuts on tree but we can't find anything... get told that is where a loaded magazine was found after suspect dove over hillside trying to evade police, he had 8 loaded guns on him and bounced off tree before losing loaded magazine... dog was correct even though we could not show the GSR on the tree) 

Honestly, yes, stress for sure in missions, especially trailing as DOT (direction of travel) is such a huge thing and directs the mission... but... that being said, we are a team and I am a tool like my dogs... so, I enterpret what dogs say, but as a team, LE included, we locate the lost 🙂.... I KNOW you and your boy are a great team, and misses, especially in a stressful (any test is) is understandable and honestly, expected....it is pas fail, you don't have a team to support your choices.... kind of like our certification tests.... pass or fail, you and your dog..... environment plays a huge roll, nerves, and just how the day is going... so hopefully, you can get back out and kick some nose work butt again soon ❤


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> OK, sorry clarification... drop of blood was actually about 3days that we are aware of, he was missing for a week prior.... the evidence search was a week and a half (guns)... sorry for confusion, both covered easily 40 acres..... and yes, don't question a well trained dogs nose... they don't lie and they are often waaaaayyyyyy more then wrong... and even 'wrong' is often proved right, but not within our natural visual reasoning (I. e., dog alerts on a tree on a steepnhillsid doing evidence/guns,nothing is there... tell IC what dog is going nuts on tree but we can't find anything... get told that is where a loaded magazine was found after suspect dove over hillside trying to evade police, he had 8 loaded guns on him and bounced off tree before losing loaded magazine... dog was correct even though we could not show the GSR on the tree)
> 
> Honestly, yes, stress for sure in missions, especially trailing as DOT (direction of travel) is such a huge thing and directs the mission... but... that being said, we are a team and I am a tool like my dogs... so, I enterpret what dogs say, but as a team, LE included, we locate the lost 🙂.... I KNOW you and your boy are a great team, and misses, especially in a stressful (any test is) is understandable and honestly, expected....it is pas fail, you don't have a team to support your choices.... kind of like our certification tests.... pass or fail, you and your dog..... environment plays a huge roll, nerves, and just how the day is going... so hopefully, you can get back out and kick some nose work butt again soon ❤


This reminds me of a find.

Fama (bomb dog) indicated on a semi truck full of oranges. EOD carefully unloaded the truck over several hours. They lined up the crates and we searched them. Nothing

I sent her off leash on the truck. Indication after checking up at the tail of the truck. I threw her up in the trailer. She indicated high up on the wall. 

EOD tested the spot. Explosive residue. Looked like a hand print.

They are amazing animals, particularly with some maturity. The job becomes important, rewarding, not just a means to an end.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

That is a cool story David... Fama rocks! 💗.. much scarier situation for you as looking after the factfor a gun, is less stressful then a bomb!! But their noses save the day time and again... 

This search was even more interesting... the hillside was so steep that everyone but myself Hokhmah and my flanker rapelled down... we were only told that out of the 16 guns only 15 were found... that when the police rolled him, he darted across the street and dove head first over the hillside (about 200ft down) where the dog got him (go doggie!).... we were not told where he was found, just the bottom.... 2 days before we did the search a heavy rainstorm came through and during the search, the heavy leaf fall covered the ice (fun, not)... Hokhmah has a natural grid to her search which is nice as it saved us some extra work... she immediately hit on the tree and was adamant (like Fama on the truck wall) even grabbing fallen branches and chewing, digging, trying to jump up into tree, lol (there might have been some dislodged bullets but situation did not allow for thorough search.. the gun was the priority).... we made it to the bottom and she worked all around narrowing down a 20ft radius where she kept giving her TFR... when I asked 'show me' to pinpoint (again, heavy leaf fall, ice and right by river so overflow debris was around (like hog panel fence etc) she would get up move a foot or two and give her TFR again... normally she would make it very obvious the exact location of the item

we climbed back up and we were told about the magazine and that was the tree he bounced off of going down... we decided to go back down and a bit to the left since we had a bit more information and figured maybe he bounced to the left... again Hokhmah is adamant about same area but not elsewhere... when we get back to top I ask if the guy had the guns loaded and if the guns were new or from a pawn shop (so having been fired before, thus GSR) and we are told it was from a private owner and yes they were used and loaded.... I explained my theory that GSR sprayed in little bursts upon impact of the tree, rocks, etc and is probably what she is alerting on and they agreed that was most likely (they had brought a metal detector down to see if they could find what she was hitting on) and that the 20ft area was where he was apprehended and they found he had loaded guns on him... poor dog was in a huge scent pool surrounded by impact GSR 

I am asked if I don't mind going to another location... sure... several miles up the road is where this whole scenario started... we meet a game warden and we are asked to work a creek down to a river where I guess he jumped in (it was 20F) floated several miles down before getting out and walking back before being rolled again and diving over hillside to then be chewed on by dog 😂😂😂.... bad day for this guy...Hokhmah alerted on a fallen branch which this guy had a loaded rifle leaning against when they first spotted him, she alerted a bit on another hillside where we were told a loaded hand gun had fallen off of him when he crashed down and then leaped over a fallen tree (she also alerted on the deputy 😂)...... after working a mile or so with no further interest by my girl we are then told that it was very possible he had sold the gun for meth as he had a bunch on him besides the guns when they finally apprehended him... that, or it was lost in the river, or any place from where he got out and before he dove over hillside.... 

I asked the deputy to hide his magazine for a short hasty so my girl could get her ball (she did after each search but not with the celebration like when she makes a confirmed find, and she was due one) it was a blind search, but what was cool is I could hear everyone when she hit odor "LOOK AT HER TAIL! SHE KNOWS WHERE IT IS.. LOOK AT HER FOCUS!" That was nice to hear and cool to get the confirmation information after I had given my theory of what was going on... 

sorry for the book, lol... I know you whave MANY a story with Fama... thank you for your service and sacrifice 💗


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> That is a cool story David... Fama rocks! 💗.. much scarier situation for you as looking after the factfor a gun, is less stressful then a bomb!! But their noses save the day time and again...
> 
> This search was even more interesting... the hillside was so steep that everyone but myself Hokhmah and my flanker rapelled down... we were only told that out of the 16 guns only 15 were found... that when the police rolled him, he darted across the street and dove head first over the hillside (about 200ft down) where the dog got him (go doggie!).... we were not told where he was found, just the bottom.... 2 days before we did the search a heavy rainstorm came through and during the search, the heavy leaf fall covered the ice (fun, not)... Hokhmah has a natural grid to her search which is nice as it saved us some extra work... she immediately hit on the tree and was adamant (like Fama on the truck wall) even grabbing fallen branches and chewing, digging, trying to jump up into tree, lol (there might have been some dislodged bullets but situation did not allow for thorough search.. the gun was the priority).... we made it to the bottom and she worked all around narrowing down a 20ft radius where she kept giving her TFR... when I asked 'show me' to pinpoint (again, heavy leaf fall, ice and right by river so overflow debris was around (like hog panel fence etc) she would get up move a foot or two and give her TFR again... normally she would make it very obvious the exact location of the item
> 
> ...


What a great team! It takes some experience and intuition to put the story together using the info you have from the dog and others, and a lot of faith in the dog to trust those iffy moments. Your training has to be really solid to avoid false alerts when the dog gets frustrated on a long search.

Nice move with the blind drop hide. It's always good to get that party on at the end of the search. I'm sure she could feel the excitement from the officers as she was working as well.

Great job and thanks for sharing!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I talk to some of the officers that do detection work since they run drills nearby a lot. They say one of the hardest things to learn is trusting your dog.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Yes, absolutely.... I have screwed my dogs up on trails (thankfully in practice) figuring I knew better.... I have called my dogs off odor because I wanted to grid and did not expect a quick find.... I have to be super strict with myself to stay out of the way.... My other two especially as they are not as bullheaded as Hokhmah; they are more easily handler influenced if I am being dumb... 

Thankfully, all 3 know their job and are easy to read most of the time... they all have recorded finds, and many mission trails run have been confirmed by the subject (who was found by other SAR units, but dogs work confirmed by their own words).... Still, I know I am the weakest link... if I can stay out of the way and let them work, not allow my own insecurities and agenda to influence my decisions, we would be better off... thankfully, I don't have the high stress that David and Fama and all MWD's and PWD's have.... while a life my hang in balance, it isn't my own, and while I could have to testify in court, it is few and far between.. 

if I could change one thing in Hokhmah, I would get her starts better... she is wench! 😂... so amped she has to bite something, and that is usually my clothing or me... it takes a moment for that drive and focus to push through the emotional overload and for her to stop being an ass(et) and to funnel that purpose into her task... once she does there is no stopping her... my other two are amped but are not so evil in their starts 😂


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Yes, absolutely.... I have screwed my dogs up on trails (thankfully in practice) figuring I knew better.... I have called my dogs off odor because I wanted to grid and did not expect a quick find.... I have to be super strict with myself to stay out of the way.... My other two especially as they are not as bullheaded as Hokhmah; they are more easily handler influenced if I am being dumb...
> 
> Thankfully, all 3 know their job and are easy to read most of the time... they all have recorded finds, and many mission trails run have been confirmed by the subject (who was found by other SAR units, but dogs work confirmed by their own words).... Still, I know I am the weakest link... if I can stay out of the way and let them work, not allow my own insecurities and agenda to influence my decisions, we would be better off... thankfully, I don't have the high stress that David and Fama and all MWD's and PWD's have.... while a life my hang in balance, it isn't my own, and while I could have to testify in court, it is few and far between..
> 
> if I could change one thing in Hokhmah, I would get her starts better... she is wench! 😂... so amped she has to bite something, and that is usually my clothing or me... it takes a moment for that drive and focus to push through the emotional overload and for her to stop being an ass(et) and to funnel that purpose into her task... once she does there is no stopping her... my other two are amped but are not so evil in their starts 😂


I never recall a dog on a search unless it is for safety. I will urge a dog in a direction, but if that is back towards me, I use back. I also encourage obedience to odor using both leash and social pressure.

Here's a video of Fama after she was retired and slowing down. She's still showing obedience to odor as I try and call her off the hide and apply light pops on the leash that is attached to her harness.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I never recall a dog on a search unless it is for safety. I will urge a dog in a direction, but if that is back towards me, I use back. I also encourage obedience to odor using both leash and social pressure.
> 
> Here's a video of Fama after she was retired and slowing down. She's still showing obedience to odor as I try and call her off the hide and apply light pops on the leash that is attached to her harness.


right... my calling the dog off odor was not on purpose, lol.... it was because I have made mistakes.... I am much better now but far from perfect... I try to stay out of my dogs way and let them work.... and yes, I also do gentle pressure tactics to teach a dog to stick to odor as we both know, missions are always fraught with pressure and unusual happenstance... 

Fama is such a good girl💗

how do I put a video up? I have videos of the dogs working on Facebook but don't know how to post one here...?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hineni7 said:


> right... my calling the dog off odor was not on purpose, lol.... it was because I have made mistakes.... I am much better now but far from perfect... I try to stay out of my dogs way and let them work.... and yes, I also do gentle pressure tactics to teach a dog to stick to odor as we both know, missions are always fraught with pressure and unusual happenstance...
> 
> Fama is such a good girl💗
> 
> how do I put a video up? I have videos of the dogs working on Facebook but don't know how to post one here...?


I usually upload them to youtube and paste the link here. If you have gmail, just log in with that.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

thanks Bearshandler... let's see if this works.. link to Facebook video https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10219680977429889&id=1080822566


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> right... my calling the dog off odor was not on purpose, lol.... it was because I have made mistakes.... I am much better now but far from perfect... I try to stay out of my dogs way and let them work.... and yes, I also do gentle pressure tactics to teach a dog to stick to odor as we both know, missions are always fraught with pressure and unusual happenstance...
> 
> Fama is such a good girl💗
> 
> how do I put a video up? I have videos of the dogs working on Facebook but don't know how to post one here...?


I don't know that I have ever seen a perfect handler. I know that I fall short. We are just lucky that a good dog is hard to ruin. 

The challenge of being a good handler is exponentially more difficult when you add in a mission and try to fit into the required parameters in a way that works best for everyone and not just the dog. 

I do have a lot of dog stories. Many are mistakes on my part that I tried my best not to repeat. Luckily, all my deadly mistakes happened in training and I had some very experienced trainers.

I'd love to see some video!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

❤.... and I bet you have stories! Your learning curve was steep and had life and death consequences... 

A good dog is hard to screw up, although I've done my best 😂.. even my 'softer' other two have flourished despite my ineptitude... 

I uploaded a video a bit a go, did the link work?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> thanks Bearshandler... let's see if this works.. link to Facebook video https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10219680977429889&id=1080822566


Nice search. Great looking dog. 

When faced with a huge area like that, I find my downwind flank and work the dog along the perimeter to that flank (on a long line of the dog is very independent), sending the dog perpendicular to the wind on the downwind flank. This conserves energy and puts the dog in a position to get into the scent cone with the least amount of searching possible.

It is a little different with a bomb dog as you don't want to enter an area that hasn't been cleared, so you are always clearing a path for yourself.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> ❤.... and I bet you have stories! Your learning curve was steep and had life and death consequences...
> 
> A good dog is hard to screw up, although I've done my best 😂.. even my 'softer' other two have flourished despite my ineptitude...
> 
> I uploaded a video a bit a go, did the link work?


Yes! Thank you for sharing! 

I hope it's ok that I shared some info / advice. I think you had a great search. Just sharing some experience.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hineni7 said:


> ❤.... and I bet you have stories! Your learning curve was steep and had life and death consequences...
> 
> A good dog is hard to screw up, although I've done my best 😂.. even my 'softer' other two have flourished despite my ineptitude...
> 
> I uploaded a video a bit a go, did the link work?


Its nice watching her work. Its so free flowing.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I almost feel sorry for anyone that hasn't experienced a dog doing detection in an open area.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Share away! I appreciate it.... on this particular search, I did not do my normal grid pattern as I was told to go the other way and my dog said 'nope, go this way!'... Kind of threw my search routine out and just watched my dog... 

You gave excellent advice, it is slightly different then what I do normally (outside of trailing, they are not on a line unless working a road or a known danger)... We normally work into the wind laterally, so one nostril is always available to wind odor, and then grid if able... probably very similar to what you just said... we don't have the extremes in weather like you had to work through, our heat can be dry and hot but not searing (thankfully), nor do we usually have to work what I would assume would be a tight grid (unless we are searching for small evidence.... HRD, even skeletal remains are usually pungent for the dogs to get odor unless environmental conditions hinder odor movement)... 

here is another video of the same dog at 13mos...shows a bit more of her typical grinding behavior which I then influence if need be... please, critique away 🙂..



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=184868462773620


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Share away! I appreciate it.... on this particular search, I did not do my normal grid pattern as I was told to go the other way and my dog said 'nope, go this way!'... Kind of threw my search routine out and just watched my dog...
> 
> You gave excellent advice, it is slightly different then what I do normally (outside of trailing, they are not on a line unless working a road or a known danger)... We normally work into the wind laterally, so one nostril is always available to wind odor, and then grid if able... probably very similar to what you just said... we don't have the extremes in weather like you had to work through, our heat can be dry and hot but not searing (thankfully), nor do we usually have to work what I would assume would be a tight grid (unless we are searching for small evidence.... HRD, even skeletal remains are usually pungent for the dogs to get odor unless environmental conditions hinder odor movement)...
> 
> ...


Nice COB at 1:07. She blew past and then came back on a nice circle to find the cone again. Then again at 1:37.

I like how she checks high around objects. Nice natural search pattern. No need for a more directed search. 

Very nice dog!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you... I do appreciate your feedback... I have many other videos, lol... But if you are interested only... Outside critiques by experienced handlers can only make me and my dogs better... no one likes to hear they messed up, lol, but if it makes me better and I can learn from my mistakes, it may save a life or bring answers to those grieving...


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

This is funny... here is one where Hokhmah had already found the casing and a bullet, we were moving on but I had two other dogs to work and lost the visual, so I was looking for the bullets.. she comes back and 'finds' them again, but I tell her good girl find more... she freaking TOSSES me the bullet! 😱😂


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10219681558444414&id=1080822566


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Post all the video you want! It's challenging to critique the finer points of detection without being able to watch the handler and dog in the space together, but I'll certainly give you any feedback that comes to mind or look at anything you want another opinion on.

I'll watch dogs sniff stuff all day


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> This is funny... here is one where Hokhmah had already found the casing and a bullet, we were moving on but I had two other dogs to work and lost the visual, so I was looking for the bullets.. she comes back and 'finds' them again, but I tell her good girl find more... she freaking TOSSES me the bullet! 😱😂
> 
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10219681558444414&id=1080822566


Ok, that's funny! At first, my bomb dog trainer self kicked in. That's aggressing on a hide which is a huge no no, hahaha. I love the relationship. She's a very open and hard working dog that pushes. My very favorite kind of dog.

She's from Lee?


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## Sabre's Mom (Jul 27, 2018)

David Winners said:


> She's from Lee?


She's a von Wolfstraum dog. I own and train her dam, L'Sabre, who is a trailing SAR dog. As a novice, who had never bred a dog, Lee provided a lot of guidance, and we bred L'Sabre under Lee's kennel name. We selected Komet to sire this litter, as my goal was to produce well balanced dogs with a lot of drive for work. Three of the pups went to SAR homes, two of which have already certified their dogs. Three went to sport homes (IGP, 2 of them to first time sport handlers, myself included). All three of these have obtained their BH, and one already has her IGP1.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabre's Mom said:


> She's a von Wolfstraum dog. I own and train her dam, L'Sabre, who is a trailing SAR dog. As a novice, who had never bred a dog, Lee provided a lot of guidance, and we bred L'Sabre under Lee's kennel name. We selected Komet to sire this litter, as my goal was to produce well balanced dogs with a lot of drive for work. Three of the pups went to SAR homes, two of which have already certified their dogs. Three went to sport homes (IGP, 2 of them to first time sport handlers, myself included). All three of these have obtained their BH, and one already has her IGP1.


Thanks for the info. I have always respected Lee. She's on my short list of breeders. Had a Carmspack dog not been available, Lee and Chris Wild were my next calls.

I really like what I see of Hokhmah. She's got work ethic and spunk. She's sassy, but has respect. Lots of hunt. Very independent dog. Very solid structurally. Moves well. Looks like Carmspack Gus honestly.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

All this detection talk is over my head. I know a good dog when I see one though.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Thanks for the info. I have always respected Lee. She's on my short list of breeders. Had a Carmspack dog not been available, Lee and Chris Wild were my next calls.
> 
> I really like what I see of Hokhmah. She's got work ethic and spunk. She's sassy, but has respect. Lots of hunt. Very independent dog. Very solid structurally. Moves well. Looks like Carmspack Gus honestly.


I would buy from Lee too. Hard list to make though. She doesn't breed that often.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I would buy from Lee too. Hard list to make though. She doesn't breed that often.


Worth the wait


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> All this detection talk is over my head. I know a good dog when I see one though.


Ask questions. I'll break down anything you want to know.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Ask questions. I'll break down anything you want to know.


I will after I take the dogs out.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Ok, that's funny! At first, my bomb dog trainer self kicked in. That's aggressing on a hide which is a huge no no, hahaha. I love the relationship. She's a very open and hard working dog that pushes. My very favorite kind of dog.
> 
> She's from Lee?


I thought you might have a knee jerk reaction... I did and I'm not a bomb dog handler 😂😂... Thankfully she has not seen fit to do that to 'source' (human remains) 😂


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> I thought you might have a knee jerk reaction... I did and I'm not a bomb dog handler 😂😂... Thankfully she has not seen fit to do that to 'source' (human remains) 😂


Since I became retired, I have considered SAR, but we plan on traveling full time and I couldn't commit to a region. I have crazy respect for the commitment SAR handlers have. A military handler has one job, their dog. Maintaining a working dog while living a normal life is serious work. I appreciate you guys and honor your commitment.

It's a load of fun working a dog and incredibly rewarding to do the job you do. I understand and share your motivation.

Thanks!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I am uploading videos to my YouTube page as i don't want all the videos public on Facebook as these are working dogs and we could get called into court....


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you David... I appreciate that... it is alot of work (especially with 3 multi discipline certified dogs, lol.. I'm insane).... you could still do so... Many handlers focus on one discipline, HRD would be the easiest for convenience in traveling to a search area (less time constraints in general)... I know handlers that just let local LE know in advance they will be in the area on certain dates should they need their services... 

As to respect for what you have done... Unbelievable, wholehearted respect and appreciation... You and those in service put your lives on the line for our freedoms.. Thank you, thank you, thank you!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Ask questions. I'll break down anything you want to know.


I understand the scent association, at least for specific scents. How do you go about the different scents for people? How do you train your indications? I assume its different from how I train them for schutzhund? You can go over the entire searching aspects.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

OK, so how do I direct you to my YouTube page? 😂... here is a video of one of her first times on water.... 2lb placenta 60ft deep


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hineni7 said:


> OK, so how do I direct you to my YouTube page? 😂... here is a video of one of her first times on water.... 2lb placenta 60ft deep


Ok now that's just ridiculous.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> I understand the scent association, at least for specific scents. How do you go about the different scents for people? How do you train your indications? I assume its different from how I train them for schutzhund? You can go over the entire searching aspects.


David may do things in a different way, for while the dogs are working dogs they are for different purposes.... for SAR mine started off trailing, so they learned early on scent discrimination and how to fool odor to a conclusion... for Areli and Akivah (Areli is a 6yr old GSD, Akivah is a 6yr old gsd/malamute) I then went to HRD.... basically hid it and when they showed interest rewarded their behavior, then backchained a final response (sit)... with Hokhmah, I imprinted her on teeth at 9wks..had a small jar and every time her nose got near she got a 'good' and a reward she gave her final on her own which was rewarded...... articles/evidence for Areli and Akivah came after HRD and since they knew the odor association game it was easy... Hokhmah, lol, she pretty much learned all of it once I knew she understood one thing she was learning another... she was easy.... guns were slightly different as we were requested for a search specifically on guns... this was before Areli aor Akivah had their evidence certifications and before Hokhmah was a thought..... they already knew articles (any item with human odor, but scent specific) and I requested a scent article, I then got my guns and magazines and layed them out in a 30ft circle and gave the article command adding 'gun' to it... when the dog went and sniffed the gun they got a reward, bigger if they gave a TFR... Areli learned that in like 5min.. Akivah a tad bit longer (malamute brain)... 

Areli certified in trailing at 1yr 5mos and HRD at 3 as well as evidence, Akivah trailing at 2,HRD at 3, Hokhmah trailing, HRD, evidence at 13mos....all are ready to certify for air scent (any human, off line, refind alert) 

Imprinting for HRD is advised, but, in my personal experience and opinion, a dog with drive will learn the scent game and if taught well, bridge the learning gap quickly on new things


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

another of Hokhmah on evidence... many of my videos are around the house but I train elsewhere far more then at home.. just hard to video in different area and keep sharp eye on my dog and surroundings... 




but one is uploading for a 40acre wilderness, teeth and a slice of carpet from a suicide... Hokhmah meets her first full dead deer 😂


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> OK, so how do I direct you to my YouTube page? 😂... here is a video of one of her first times on water.... 2lb placenta 60ft deep


Nice read on the dog. Other than her tendency to turn very sharp during a search, she's easy to read. Great drive on the boat. I'm impressed.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hineni7 said:


> David may do things in a different way, for while the dogs are working dogs they are for different purposes.... for SAR mine started off trailing, so they learned early on scent discrimination and how to fool odor to a conclusion... for Areli and Akivah (Areli is a 6yr old GSD, Akivah is a 6yr old gsd/malamute) I then went to HRD.... basically hid it and when they showed interest rewarded their behavior, then backchained a final response (sit)... with Hokhmah, I imprinted her on teeth at 9wks..had a small jar and every time her nose got near she got a 'good' and a reward she gave her final on her own which was rewarded...... articles/evidence for Areli and Akivah came after HRD and since they knew the odor association game it was easy... Hokhmah, lol, she pretty much learned all of it once I knew she understood one thing she was learning another... she was easy.... guns were slightly different as we were requested for a search specifically on guns... this was before Areli aor Akivah had their evidence certifications and before Hokhmah was a thought..... they already knew articles (any item with human odor, but scent specific) and I requested a scent article, I then got my guns and magazines and layed them out in a 30ft circle and gave the article command adding 'gun' to it... when the dog went and sniffed the gun they got a reward, bigger if they gave a TFR... Areli learned that in like 5min.. Akivah a tad bit longer (malamute brain)...
> 
> Areli certified in trailing at 1yr 5mos and HRD at 3 as well as evidence, Akivah trailing at 2,HRD at 3, Hokhmah trailing, HRD, evidence at 13mos....all are ready to certify for air scent (any human, off line, refind alert)
> 
> Imprinting for HRD is advised, but, in my personal experience and opinion, a dog with drive will learn the scent game and if taught well, bridge the learning gap quickly on new things


I guess you train the indications the same way. The final behavior is different(sit vs. down), but the free shaping of response is the same.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I looked for more videos of Areli and Akivah, I had tons, but unfortunately when I broke my phone I lost alot.... Hokhmah is flashier then the other two and super fun to video because of it... Areli is methodical, seasoned and slower (except when trailing, then she is a mack truck and speed demon, ugh) because of her purposeful'I must be right can't be wrong, no mistakes' attitude.. Akivah is more carefree, although very good at his job, he has a joyful presence doing it... 

This is Hokhmah in about 40acres.. I planned on grinding it but wind changed and well, she found the teeth, then the slice of suicide carpet and a funny deer interaction..


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> David may do things in a different way, for while the dogs are working dogs they are for different purposes.... for SAR mine started off trailing, so they learned early on scent discrimination and how to fool odor to a conclusion... for Areli and Akivah (Areli is a 6yr old GSD, Akivah is a 6yr old gsd/malamute) I then went to HRD.... basically hid it and when they showed interest rewarded their behavior, then backchained a final response (sit)... with Hokhmah, I imprinted her on teeth at 9wks..had a small jar and every time her nose got near she got a 'good' and a reward she gave her final on her own which was rewarded...... articles/evidence for Areli and Akivah came after HRD and since they knew the odor association game it was easy... Hokhmah, lol, she pretty much learned all of it once I knew she understood one thing she was learning another... she was easy.... guns were slightly different as we were requested for a search specifically on guns... this was before Areli aor Akivah had their evidence certifications and before Hokhmah was a thought..... they already knew articles (any item with human odor, but scent specific) and I requested a scent article, I then got my guns and magazines and layed them out in a 30ft circle and gave the article command adding 'gun' to it... when the dog went and sniffed the gun they got a reward, bigger if they gave a TFR... Areli learned that in like 5min.. Akivah a tad bit longer (malamute brain)...
> 
> Areli certified in trailing at 1yr 5mos and HRD at 3 as well as evidence, Akivah trailing at 2,HRD at 3, Hokhmah trailing, HRD, evidence at 13mos....all are ready to certify for air scent (any human, off line, refind alert)
> 
> Imprinting for HRD is advised, but, in my personal experience and opinion, a dog with drive will learn the scent game and if taught well, bridge the learning gap quickly on new things


For specific odors, I use scent tubes and a cocktail of all the odors I want to teach. I click the dog putting their nose into the tube and feed through a hole in the tube. As soon as they are on toy rewards, I switch to a ball. I will then add a TFR, sit or down depending on the height of a hide. None of this is my idea. It's all methods used by way smarter trainers than me.

I also play scent games. I'll take a pinecone and rub it in my hands. Toss it into a pile of pinecones and reward for a retrieve.

Nosework imprinting with Valor first session.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I guess you train the indications the same way. The final behavior is different(sit vs. down), but the free shaping of response is the same.


Honestly, the specific TFR isn't as important as you reading the dog. Most dogs will sit on a high hide and down on a buried hide.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Hokhmah's momma, Sabre is a SAR dog and I know Komet is an exceptional IPG dog.... good breeding all the way...


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> For specific odors, I use scent tubes and a cocktail of all the odors I want to teach. I click the dog putting their nose into the tube and feed through a hole in the tube. As soon as they are on toy rewards, I switch to a ball. I will then add a TFR, sit or down depending on the height of a hide. None of this is my idea. It's all methods used by way smarter trainers than me.
> 
> I also play scent games. I'll take a pinecone and rub it in my hands. Toss it into a pile of pinecones and reward for a retrieve.
> 
> Nosework imprinting with Valor first session.


Yes, she turns sharp, lol... 

And you stated it much better then eye... none of what I do is original, lol, all from watching way more skilled handlers and seeing results I liked... 

Valor is awesome! ❤.. and yes, although your tube was much more impressive then my jar😂.. but same.. I began using a clicker just last when I got Hokhmah.. I like the results.... How old is Valor now? would love to see some more videos of him working


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> I guess you train the indications the same way. The final behavior is different(sit vs. down), but the free shaping of response is the same.


I would agree.... some use a down for SAR, my dogs always just wanted to sit, although in excitement they may down too


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hineni7 said:


> I looked for more videos of Areli and Akivah, I had tons, but unfortunately when I broke my phone I lost alot.... Hokhmah is flashier then the other two and super fun to video because of it... Areli is methodical, seasoned and slower (except when trailing, then she is a mack truck and speed demon, ugh) because of her purposeful'I must be right can't be wrong, no mistakes' attitude.. Akivah is more carefree, although very good at his job, he has a joyful presence doing it...
> 
> This is Hokhmah in about 40acres.. I planned on grinding it but wind changed and well, she found the teeth, then the slice of suicide carpet and a funny deer interaction..


She is a fun dog to watch work.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hineni7 said:


> Hokhmah's momma, Sabre is a SAR dog and I know Komet is an exceptional IPG dog.... good breeding all the way...


Lee has a phenomenal program. You could look at just about any venue and find her dogs excelling.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Yes, she turns sharp, lol...
> 
> And you stated it much better then eye... none of what I do is original, lol, all from watching way more skilled handlers and seeing results I liked...
> 
> Valor is awesome! ❤.. and yes, although your tube was much more impressive then my jar😂.. but same.. I began using a clicker just last when I got Hokhmah.. I like the results.... How old is Valor now? would love to see some more videos of him working


7 months tomorrow. I'll get some video soon. It's supposed to snow like crazy here tomorrow, so I'm not sure when but it will be soonly. I don't train odor often. He's got the basics. He will work rooms and small open areas. His hunt is good. He will go 8-10 minutes on a search and not give up. I've never lost a toy that I didn't hang in a tree, and he tried to climb it for 5 minutes. He actually looks up.

I'm really working engagement, recall, tug, and relationship right now. He will range out front just fine and is confident in any terrain. I like his nerve, drive and hunt.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> 7 months tomorrow. I'll get some video soon. It's supposed to snow like crazy here tomorrow, so I'm not sure when but it will be soonly. I don't train odor often. He's got the basics. He will work rooms and small open areas. His hunt is good. He will go 8-10 minutes on a search and not give up. I've never lost a toy that I didn't hang in a tree, and he tried to climb it for 5 minutes. He actually looks up.
> 
> I'm really working engagement, recall, tug, and relationship right now. He will range out front just fine and is confident in any terrain. I like his nerve, drive and hunt.


I'll try to add some scent work to see how it goes. I can't say that I'm an expert on evaluating hunt drive, since it doesn't really come up for me. I know Bear will look for something until I tell him to stop. Cion will look, but he is very quick to turn to me for help.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I'll try to add some scent work to see how it goes. I can't say that I'm an expert on evaluating hunt drive, since it doesn't really come up for me. I know Bear will look for something until I tell him to stop. Cion will look, but he is very quick to turn to me for help.


You nailed it. Throw a toy into tall grass. Valor will circle around to me but head right back in without a word. It grows as they mature and gain confidence. Prey drive won't carry a detection dog without hunt. They are different motivation.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> 7 months tomorrow. I'll get some video soon. It's supposed to snow like crazy here tomorrow, so I'm not sure when but it will be soonly. I don't train odor often. He's got the basics. He will work rooms and small open areas. His hunt is good. He will go 8-10 minutes on a search and not give up. I've never lost a toy that I didn't hang in a tree, and he tried to climb it for 5 minutes. He actually looks up.
> 
> I'm really working engagement, recall, tug, and relationship right now. He will range out front just fine and is confident in any terrain. I like his nerve, drive and hunt.


Bet he is handsome too! You doing IPG or mondooring? Love working with dogs like that... Hokhmah is a bit sharp, she is mouthy at starts and very vocal... if I could blend a bit of Areli's calm (well, it is decorum, not necessarily calm on the inside but outwardly dignified) into Hokhmah I would have THE perfect dog, 😂


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Would love to see video Bearshandler...I can always learn something watching dogs work


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> You nailed it. Throw a toy into tall grass. Valor will circle around to me but head right back in without a word. It grows as they mature and gain confidence. Prey drive won't carry a detection dog without hunt. They are different motivation.


I'll see how it goes the next time we go to our sandbox. I'll record it.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hineni7 said:


> Hokhmah is a bit sharp, she is mouthy at starts and very vocal.


She's just showing affection. Both of mine can get a little mouthy when they are excited, one way more than the other.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Bet he is handsome too! You doing IPG or mondooring? Love working with dogs like that... Hokhmah is a bit sharp, she is mouthy at starts and very vocal... if I could blend a bit of Areli's calm (well, it is decorum, not necessarily calm on the inside but outwardly dignified) into Hokhmah I would have THE perfect dog, 😂


He will grab the hood of my sweatshirt, and hang on, if I don't get to training soon enough for him. Hard to video but it's fun 

He will do IPG and Nosework. I have a great club that is used to this type of dog close ish to me. I'm in no hurry though. He's got a good foundation.

He is very forward with good nerves. Pushy in a good way. He's the dog I wanted.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)




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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> You nailed it. Throw a toy into tall grass. Valor will circle around to me but head right back in without a word. It grows as they mature and gain confidence. Prey drive won't carry a detection dog without hunt. They are different motivation.


it's funny you say that... when Areli and Akivah were about a year old we had joined a SAR team a county below us... they wanted the dogs evaluated... they are 5weeks apart in age and I had had a kidney situation that had me down during their bonding time with toys and instead used each other as squeaky toys... but their hunt drive was HUGE.... so the evaluator kept trying to get them involved in tug or fetch, both did but half heartedly... she told me they did not have drive... I told her "hide something, or hide someone... you will see the drive".... she could not understand the difference and she sent a condescending report to the team... of course the team felt I should wash them, Areli certified in trailing 5mos later (usually takes a couple of yes) on a double blind 16hr old trail, and Akivah about 7mos later (urban trail 8hrs old).... hunt drive makes the difference


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> it's funny you say that... when Areli and Akivah were about a year old we had joined a SAR team a county below us... they wanted the dogs evaluated... they are 5weeks apart in age and I had had a kidney situation that had me down during their bonding time with toys and instead used each other as squeaky toys... but their hunt drive was HUGE.... so the evaluator kept trying to get them involved in tug or fetch, both did but half heartedly... she told me they did not have drive... I told her "hide something, or hide someone... you will see the drive".... she could not understand the difference and she sent a condescending report to the team... of course the team felt I should wash them, Areli certified in trailing 5mos later (usually takes a couple of yes) on a double blind 16hr old trail, and Akivah about 7mos later (urban trail 8hrs old).... hunt drive makes the difference


It's strange that a SAR trainer wouldn't understand the difference. Prey is movement a dog can see. Hunt is nose. Different mechanisms that can totally exist independent of one another.

Play fetch with a bloodhound sometime.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> View attachment 566294


he is so handsome! Yeah, he reminds me of Hokhmah in the no fear, balls out, oops, missed a step, do that again, ah perfection, kind of way.... her introduction to the down wash of helicopters at 6mos of age was as exciting as watching paint dry... "yeah mom, only exciting if we get to ride in it... ohh, I smell something, trail?"


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> he is so handsome! Yeah, he reminds me of Hokhmah in the no fear, balls out, oops, missed a step, do that again, ah perfection, kind of way.... her introduction to the down wash of helicopters at 6mos of age was as exciting as watching paint dry... "yeah mom, only exciting if we get to ride in it... ohh, I smell something, trail?"


You can't train that kind of balls. Fama used to sleep during helicopter zero g training. Floating in the air, asleep.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> It's strange that a SAR trainer wouldn't understand the difference. Prey is movement a dog can see. Hunt is nose. Different mechanisms that can totally exist independent of one another.
> 
> Play fetch with a bloodhound sometime.


well, they were used to the bat poop crazy maniac type' drive' and were not thinking of how, like the perfect example, a bloodhound works, 'drive'.... I guess we can all get locked into our own little box of assumptions.... my dogs keep me humble, lol... very very very good at knocking me off any assumed pedestal (Hokhmah quite literally 😂)


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> You can't train that kind of balls. Fama used to sleep during helicopter zero g training. Floating in the air, asleep.


😂😂😂😱😱😱😂😂😂OHMYGOSH that is crazy!!! would love to have seen that!! wow.... that's bravery


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> You can't train that kind of balls. Fama used to sleep during helicopter zero g training. Floating in the air, asleep.


Thats some rough sleep.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> He will grab the hood of my sweatshirt, and hang on, if I don't get to training soon enough for him. Hard to video but it's fun
> 
> He will do IPG and Nosework. I have a great club that is used to this type of dog close ish to me. I'm in no hurry though. He's got a good foundation.
> 
> He is very forward with good nerves. Pushy in a good way. He's the dog I wanted.


yeah, have many a ruined jacket, shirt, and extra scars from her, uh, love.... I can do without that part....


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> well, they were used to the bat poop crazy maniac type' drive' and were not thinking of how, like the perfect example, a bloodhound works, 'drive'.... I guess we can all get locked into our own little box of assumptions.... my dogs keep me humble, lol... very very very good at knocking me off any assumed pedestal (Hokhmah quite literally 😂)


Getting the dog you need is such a blessing. I wouldn't be the trainer I am today without Fama. She was amazing and terrible. All the good stuff and all the bad. All the drive and attitude. She was 4 and really knew bomb and bite. Everything else was up to her and the moment.

I respect a dog doing anything well. I try and understand the motivation behind that performance. I have seen a lackadaisical looking bloodhound trail for hours without a break over crazy terrain and hard surfaces just because it loved it. No reward necessary but a pat on the chest. That dog could care less about a ball or tug. If I'm lost in the woods, I want that dog on my trail. The dog that loves the work.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> Thats some rough sleep.


Rough is relative


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Rough is relative


Well you got me there


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Getting the dog you need is such a blessing. I wouldn't be the trainer I am today without Fama. She was amazing and terrible. All the good stuff and all the bad. All the drive and attitude. She was 4 and really knew bomb and bite. Everything else was up to her and the moment.
> 
> I respect a dog doing anything well. I try and understand the motivation behind that performance. I have seen a lackadaisical looking bloodhound trail for hours without a break over crazy terrain and hard surfaces just because it loved it. No reward necessary but a pat on the chest. That dog could care less about a ball or tug. If I'm lost in the woods, I want that dog on my trail. The dog that loves the work.


You speak wisdom and I'm sure it comes from a butt load of experience (or a bite load, sorry, had to).... Yes, I too have respect for aa dog that does anything well... , but for me, watching a dog work odor is magical... Odor is ethereal in ways; it has a life of its own and does not abide by our whims.. it flows with the environment, is (usually) invisible and yet, it pulls a good dog into the game and then the magic happens... Dogs that work odor well, hold a place in my heart and a respect far beyond what I would have ever expected.... they teach me new thingsmost every time I work with them, if I care to be observant and studious.... if not, they humble me when I ignore their alerts for what I believed to be 'obvious', nope... humble pie again (I think I need to work on my blog again, lol, I'm writing books... sorry for lengthy posts)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> You speak wisdom and I'm sure it comes from a butt load of experience (or a bite load, sorry, had to).... Yes, I too have respect for aa dog that does anything well... , but for me, watching a dog work odor is magical... Odor is ethereal in ways; it has a life of its own and does not abide by our whims.. it flows with the environment, is (usually) invisible and yet, it pulls a good dog into the game and then the magic happens... Dogs that work odor well, hold a place in my heart and a respect far beyond what I would have ever expected.... they teach me new thingsmost every time I work with them, if I care to be observant and studious.... if not, they humble me when I ignore their alerts for what I believed to be 'obvious', nope... humble pie again (I think I need to work on my blog again, lol, I'm writing books... sorry for lengthy posts)


Lengthy post away.

I regard detection as magical on a regular basis. I've trained a couple hundred detection dogs. Some were crazy good. It's still humbling for me to watch a great dog work odor, particularly when there are terrain challenges.

I know where the hide is. I know where the wind is. I know where the sun and the hills are.

Dog wins.

This is literally my favorite thing.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Lengthy post away.
> 
> I regard detection as magical on a regular basis. I've trained a couple hundred detection dogs. Some were crazy good. It's still humbling for me to watch a great dog work odor, particularly when there are terrain challenges.
> 
> ...


yes, that's it... you nailed it..... each dog using their own gifts and abilities, experiences and training to an invisible miasma that tickles their nose and tantalizes their senses.... 

We had mission where a kid was thought to be suicidal and had runaway... I pulled Areli out and cast her around the house, she took me to a creek about 100meters down a dirt rd and to a chair.... kid had been sitting with grandpa the evening before... OK, cast her again (getting fresh trail from a home is always tricky, and this was about 17hrs old) she takes me to another road behind the house, circles and gives me the car pick up sign (wtf(udge) where did the trail go?) I tell IC I believe he was picked up.... about 10min later we get a call from one of our SAR peeps who was in town and thought she saw him.... we go to town and Areli gets odor, we run about 1.5miles going to 2 particular homes (it is about 105F) before losing the trail.... come to find out the first home was his old babysitter who he hung out with and the other a drug dealers home (ugh)....I also find out that the road that Areli gave a car pick up alert led to more family but they were made at the dad...., so likely he was picked up by them but we aren't sure... we wrap for the day... next day we are asked to work deep in the mountains as that suspected family told LE that the kid had come to them and told them he was hiking (6hrs)over the mountain to go to the next county (another 10hrs walking) town, yeah, right.... but we do, dogs have no odor (surprise! not...).... I'm asked to go check near the suspected family home which is swearing he isn't there..... just below the property line I pull Akivah out, scent him, and he turns on a dime and marches straight toward the house (lol)... suddenly we get a car come down driveway, see commotion in the back (I believe kid was being covered up by blanket) and we are told we don't have permission to search because they have dogs and are afraid our dogs will cause trouble...... LE says they are done... they are now quite certain he is alive and well and evading... all this is later confirmed by the kid when he comes to a SAR meeting (our president reached out to him and tried the team tried to help him through his troubles.....) 
. I say all this because the magic of watching dogs work and offer information vital to how a search flows was beautiful... everyone did their job well and worked like a well oiled machine... hundreds of man hours were avoided in a fruitless search... 

my dogs had found bones, bodies, drownings and been used for successful finds before, but this was one of those times where the absence of odor told a story... the whole team, LE, dogs, atv, car, ground pounder etc all worked cohesively to tell a story absent of other evidence... For me, it really drove home that magic the dogs can do....


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

I really don’t have anything worth adding, but I can read this kind of conversation for a long time. I love watching dogs work odor. Love watching and working my girls on odor as well, lol. 

Heneni7, great to see you posting again. I always make the effort to read your posts (you being a “local” and all that). It was kind of a desire to do SAR and then life happened before I could even get started.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> yes, that's it... you nailed it..... each dog using their own gifts and abilities, experiences and training to an invisible miasma that tickles their nose and tantalizes their senses....
> 
> We had mission where a kid was thought to be suicidal and had runaway... I pulled Areli out and cast her around the house, she took me to a creek about 100meters down a dirt rd and to a chair.... kid had been sitting with grandpa the evening before... OK, cast her again (getting fresh trail from a home is always tricky, and this was about 17hrs old) she takes me to another road behind the house, circles and gives me the car pick up sign (wtf(udge) where did the trail go?) I tell IC I believe he was picked up.... about 10min later we get a call from one of our SAR peeps who was in town and thought she saw him.... we go to town and Areli gets odor, we run about 1.5miles going to 2 particular homes (it is about 105F) before losing the trail.... come to find out the first home was his old babysitter who he hung out with and the other a drug dealers home (ugh)....I also find out that the road that Areli gave a car pick up alert led to more family but they were made at the dad...., so likely he was picked up by them but we aren't sure... we wrap for the day... next day we are asked to work deep in the mountains as that suspected family told LE that the kid had come to them and told them he was hiking (6hrs)over the mountain to go to the next county (another 10hrs walking) town, yeah, right.... but we do, dogs have no odor (surprise! not...).... I'm asked to go check near the suspected family home which is swearing he isn't there..... just below the property line I pull Akivah out, scent him, and he turns on a dime and marches straight toward the house (lol)... suddenly we get a car come down driveway, see commotion in the back (I believe kid was being covered up by blanket) and we are told we don't have permission to search because they have dogs and are afraid our dogs will cause trouble...... LE says they are done... they are now quite certain he is alive and well and evading... all this is later confirmed by the kid when he comes to a SAR meeting (our president reached out to him and tried the team tried to help him through his troubles.....)
> . I say all this because the magic of watching dogs work and offer information vital to how a search flows was beautiful... everyone did their job well and worked like a well oiled machine... hundreds of man hours were avoided in a fruitless search...
> ...


Thanks for sharing that story. I had a tear.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Miika's Mom said:


> I really don’t have anything worth adding, but I can read this kind of conversation for a long time. I love watching dogs work odor. Love watching and working my girls on odor as well, lol.
> 
> Heneni7, great to see you posting again. I always make the effort to read your posts (you being a “local” and all that). It was kind of a desire to do SAR and then life happened before I could even get started.


Thanks.... good to hear from you too... hope life has leveled out for you some... never give up on the dream, if it is still a goal for you 😊


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

Life is even more crazy now, lol. Miika would have been the one as she is my “I can do anything” and “never say die” when it comes to hunting odor. Hopefully with my next puppy in two or three years. 
I have been approved by one breeder, but will be looking at others. Am always open to suggestions 😉
Don’t go so long between your posts too!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hineni7 said:


> yes, that's it... you nailed it..... each dog using their own gifts and abilities, experiences and training to an invisible miasma that tickles their nose and tantalizes their senses....
> 
> We had mission where a kid was thought to be suicidal and had runaway... I pulled Areli out and cast her around the house, she took me to a creek about 100meters down a dirt rd and to a chair.... kid had been sitting with grandpa the evening before... OK, cast her again (getting fresh trail from a home is always tricky, and this was about 17hrs old) she takes me to another road behind the house, circles and gives me the car pick up sign (wtf(udge) where did the trail go?) I tell IC I believe he was picked up.... about 10min later we get a call from one of our SAR peeps who was in town and thought she saw him.... we go to town and Areli gets odor, we run about 1.5miles going to 2 particular homes (it is about 105F) before losing the trail.... come to find out the first home was his old babysitter who he hung out with and the other a drug dealers home (ugh)....I also find out that the road that Areli gave a car pick up alert led to more family but they were made at the dad...., so likely he was picked up by them but we aren't sure... we wrap for the day... next day we are asked to work deep in the mountains as that suspected family told LE that the kid had come to them and told them he was hiking (6hrs)over the mountain to go to the next county (another 10hrs walking) town, yeah, right.... but we do, dogs have no odor (surprise! not...).... I'm asked to go check near the suspected family home which is swearing he isn't there..... just below the property line I pull Akivah out, scent him, and he turns on a dime and marches straight toward the house (lol)... suddenly we get a car come down driveway, see commotion in the back (I believe kid was being covered up by blanket) and we are told we don't have permission to search because they have dogs and are afraid our dogs will cause trouble...... LE says they are done... they are now quite certain he is alive and well and evading... all this is later confirmed by the kid when he comes to a SAR meeting (our president reached out to him and tried the team tried to help him through his troubles.....)
> . I say all this because the magic of watching dogs work and offer information vital to how a search flows was beautiful... everyone did their job well and worked like a well oiled machine... hundreds of man hours were avoided in a fruitless search...
> ...


That is amazing work. All those times the dog look like she was wrong, yet confirmed to be right. It is amazing. I love stories of dogs working in just about any capacity.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Miika's Mom said:


> Life is even more crazy now, lol. Miika would have been the one as she is my “I can do anything” and “never say die” when it comes to hunting odor. Hopefully with my next puppy in two or three years.
> I have been approved by one breeder, but will be looking at others. Am always open to suggestions 😉
> Don’t go so long between your posts too!


Well, I look forward to seeing what you do with any of your dogs 🙂..... I need to update my blog too, I am so far behind, lol...


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## NiabiTheGreat (Jul 14, 2019)

All of that is just so incredible! I am just in absolute awe! Dogs(and their noses!) are incredible. Those stories gave me goosebumps. You have got an incredible dog(s) They give closure, prevent tragedies, and save lives! The best teams out there. I often can't wrap my head around it all. They are amazing, both dogs and their handlers.

I probably wouldn't have my dog if it wasn't for a (fictional)dog's nose! My dad was in the Army, and I planned to go down the same path. Loved reading books revolving around the military, and was often gifted them. One day, back in 2010, I was given a book called "Cracker!" A book about a pet turned MWD(I don't know if it works the same, it is a fictional book, lol). I loved dogs and admired GSD's already just because my dad was stationed in Germany for a bit and met a few, plus they were the breed most think about when you mention a Police K-9 or MWD. Anyway, it was an awesome book(still my #1!) And turned my liking of the breed into a complete obsession. I fell in love, and 8 years later when the time was right(and after a lot of research and planning), I got my boy! He was supposed to be a Service dog, but even so, I made sure he got an early foundation for scent work, just in case things didn't work out. Despite being told not to. It didn't work out, so I fell back to scentwork immediately and began training. Most done by myself due to covid hitting. He, or rather I, am not great. But it is still super fun and gives us a small little door into the world of scent work. When he is out trailing or searching for a scent it is a totally different experience. Just me, my dog, and the source of the scent. Without reading that book, I don't think I would have ever gotten as much love, admiration, and respect for the breed(and even more so for all MWD, CWD, PK9, and SAR Dogs) I have today. In turn, also not ending up with my dog, friend, and partner, I have today. He is laying right beside me with his head over my leg as I write. I owe a whole lot to a dog's nose! Magical in many ways. 

Anyways, sorry for the long rambling post. I shouldn't be writing posts at 2 am, lol. Just wanted you to know how incredible you and your dog(s) are. Often life changing, for many people!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

NiabitheGreat, that was a beautiful story, so heartfelt.. I could feel your love for your dog and the respect that working with these awesome animals, brings.... thank you for sharing it ❤


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

Hineni7 said:


> NiabitheGreat, that was a beautiful story, so heartfelt.. I could feel your love for your dog and the respect that working with these awesome animals, brings.... thank you for sharing it ❤



Hineni, in addition to the wonderful detailed posts on working, you bring such a positive outlook focused on the possibilities. Hope to see much more! The Wolfstraum girl that I lost a couple of years ago was also relentless at trailing and had shown promise at water search--HRD, not so much....However, there were essentially no callouts in this area, and there were sufficient teams to cover areas several hours out, so we did not continue. Rocket is obsessed with trailing, but my age will prohibit us from doing more than sport now. Love following her sister.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

pam said:


> Hineni, in addition to the wonderful detailed posts on working, you bring such a positive outlook focused on the possibilities. Hope to see much more! The Wolfstraum girl that I lost a couple of years ago was also relentless at trailing and had shown promise at water search--HRD, not so much....However, there were essentially no callouts in this area, and there were sufficient teams to cover areas several hours out, so we did not continue. Rocket is obsessed with trailing, but my age will prohibit us from doing more than sport now. Love following her sister.


Thanks Pam❤.... Rocket is so beautiful and talented.... I bet you could do more 'easy' work (on the body I mean) with nose work... I know you both would be amazing at that!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The hunt drive in these dogs goes all the way back (and obviously further back genetically!!) to my first generation, Kyra (who was linebred 2,5-5 on Lord) - she loved tracking - me, not so much! So I have to have dogs with drive for it!   But I have chosen breeding partners with good backgrounds in SAR or scent detection to balance the working ability and keep the genetics active...always for balanced dogs who can do do sport or real work....Komet's littermate Kira produced a professional scent detection dog who has completed several IPO-FH, FH2's and regularly works at narcotics detection - another Komet daughter is certified for narcotics as well...Lucca, my littermate sister to L'Sabre, has a couple showing the same intensity and talent...

And Misty - Kyra, who is 5 generations back, would jump up, grip my arm for a second when I sent her on a blind search or a send out....and Csabre did the same...so that comes to her honestly too!

Thanks all for the kind words....proud of all the dogs from my program!

Lee


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> The hunt drive in these dogs goes all the way back (and obviously further back genetically!!) to my first generation, Kyra (who was linebred 2,5-5 on Lord) - she loved tracking - me, not so much! So I have to have dogs with drive for it!   But I have chosen breeding partners with good backgrounds in SAR or scent detection to balance the working ability and keep the genetics active...always for balanced dogs who can do do sport or real work....Komet's littermate Kira produced a professional scent detection dog who has completed several IPO-FH, FH2's and regularly works at narcotics detection - another Komet daughter is certified for narcotics as well...Lucca, my littermate sister to L'Sabre, has a couple showing the same intensity and talent...
> 
> And Misty - Kyra, who is 5 generations back, would jump up, grip my arm for a second when I sent her on a blind search or a send out....and Csabre did the same...so that comes to her honestly too!
> 
> ...


was Kyra vocal too? Hokhmah has a mouth on her 😂🙄.... everything and I mean EVERYTHING is exciting and she does it with every ounce of her being... It is perfect for when working (and snuggles, she is a good snuggle... actually annoying as she HAS to be pressed against me to sleep at night (God forbid I get a call or text at night😂🙄🙄🤬🤬🙄🙄😂😂) but other then working, oy'vay, lol... 

Definitely know this is a well bred, carefully selected dog... I get compliments on her from LE and anyone who watches her work all the time... she is great with kids but super super protective of me (totally good with family and friends, although she is quick to let them know this is my room and SHE is watching them, but don't want to see someone muck with me... well, Areli and Akivah too, but Hokhmah is like this tiny mighty dynamo... surprise ya).... Komet and L Sabre should be proud doggie parents


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Funny the traits that carry down....I rarely have had the opportunity to let them socialize with children - but Kyra loved kids, Csabre adored them - she would suck little ones in when out at pet stores, then stand there smiling with soft expression and laid back ears while they petted her and hugged her, Kira and her sons Nicolai and Pfalcon and his pups also are attracted to children....a few weeks ago, we had Komet and Nick at a Boy Scouts event, Komets son, Malek Traumwolfen, a star attraction with his trainer, a local well known behaviorist. Tons of childern clustered around them with dog treats - one 5? year old charges up and throws his arms around Komet to hug him....Komet calmly washes his face! One day, a client showed up in my office when the 90 year old owner was sitting down - she loudly greeted the owner, and leaned over to hug her, and Komet put her against a wall....he was not about to let a stranger put hands on one of his pack....these dogs are well rounded and not prey monkeys.....Komet is not overly vocal without outside triggers, Lucca is always talking to me however!

Lee


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fama was fantastic with kids, with absolutely no experience before 7 years old. I'd take her to the Veterans Day program at the school. 2000 people there. K - 4 classes seated on the gym floor. Fama would wade through the kids washing faces and getting hugs.

Amazing animals.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Good breeding always shines


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

David Winners said:


> Fama was fantastic with kids, with absolutely no experience before 7 years old. I'd take her to the Veterans Day program at the school. 2000 people there. K - 4 classes seated on the gym floor. Fama would wade through the kids washing faces and getting hugs.
> 
> Amazing animals.


The good one have that discernment.....Fama was one of the best!

Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Funny the traits that carry down....I rarely have had the opportunity to let them socialize with children - but Kyra loved kids, Csabre adored them - she would suck little ones in when out at pet stores, then stand there smiling with soft expression and laid back ears while they petted her and hugged her, Kira and her sons Nicolai and Pfalcon and his pups also are attracted to children....a few weeks ago, we had Komet and Nick at a Boy Scouts event, Komets son, Malek Traumwolfen, a star attraction with his trainer, a local well known behaviorist. Tons of childern clustered around them with dog treats - one 5? year old charges up and throws his arms around Komet to hug him....Komet calmly washes his face! One day, a client showed up in my office when the 90 year old owner was sitting down - she loudly greeted the owner, and leaned over to hug her, and Komet put her against a wall....he was not about to let a stranger put hands on one of his pack....these dogs are well rounded and not prey monkeys.....Komet is not overly vocal without outside triggers, Lucca is always talking to me however!
> 
> Lee


And this is one of the reasons I keep watching your dogs. Aggression toward children is something I will not deal with and will never excuse or condone. There should never be a question of breeding a dog that has displayed aggression toward a child. Even with rescues, any indication of aggression toward a child got them sent from my home. I will never allow it. It was clearly stated in the original breed "plan" that these dogs were to be capable of entertaining the children and watching over the home.
Buds avoidance of kids was pushing the line in my eyes.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> And this is one of the reasons I keep watching your dogs. Aggression toward children is something I will not deal with and will never excuse or condone. There should never be a question of breeding a dog that has displayed aggression toward a child. Even with rescues, any indication of aggression toward a child got them sent from my home. I will never allow it. It was clearly stated in the original breed "plan" that these dogs were to be capable of entertaining the children and watching over the home.
> Buds avoidance of kids was pushing the line in my eyes.


so true.... amazing how much we can accept as 'normal breed aggression' when actuality it is poor nerve.... especially in SAR, but homes with kids might even usurp that, good breeding, good nerve, excellent discernment (which is imperative in any day to day activities more then couch potato in a home of one) is imperative to keep this breed what the original foinder(s) intended.... working? ABSOLUTELY! but work comes with a healthy dose of discernment, knowing when to throw the punch is as important as how hard you hit.. if not more so


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> so true.... amazing how much we can accept as 'normal breed aggression' when actuality it is poor nerve.... especially in SAR, but homes with kids might even usurp that, good breeding, good nerve, excellent discernment (which is imperative in any day to day activities more then couch potato in a home of one) is imperative to keep this breed what the original foinder(s) intended.... working? ABSOLUTELY! but work comes with a healthy dose of discernment, knowing when to throw the punch is as important as how hard you hit.. if not more so


People have no clue what discernment even is. And no clue what actual protection really looks like. I swear I am so sick of seeing German Shepherds everywhere that are snarling and lunging at everything. Or the ones that are so docile it's sad.
I feel like a cyber stalker, lol. I've been watching Hokhmah on FB as often as you update. And bunches more of the Wolfstraum dogs. She is an awesome dog, and you have put so much work into her.
Shadow will be the last rescue I own. I hope, lol. She's a great dog, and I will take nothing from her. Ever. But I want a working dog. I like the training and the actual watching them do their jobs.
I wanted to do accelerant detection with Shadow, her nose is incredible. She showed enough promise that her training would have been covered by the arson investigator that I worked with. Her behavioral issues got in the way, and that seems sad to me. She was so amazing to watch on site.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> People have no clue what discernment even is. And no clue what actual protection really looks like. I swear I am so sick of seeing German Shepherds everywhere that are snarling and lunging at everything. Or the ones that are so docile it's sad.
> I feel like a cyber stalker, lol. I've been watching Hokhmah on FB as often as you update. And bunches more of the Wolfstraum dogs. She is an awesome dog, and you have put so much work into her.
> Shadow will be the last rescue I own. I hope, lol. She's a great dog, and I will take nothing from her. Ever. But I want a working dog. I like the training and the actual watching them do their jobs.
> I wanted to do accelerant detection with Shadow, her nose is incredible. She showed enough promise that her training would have been covered by the arson investigator that I worked with. Her behavioral issues got in the way, and that seems sad to me. She was so amazing to watch on site.


thank you.... and yes, I agree, few understand or know what discernment appropriate aggression is.... sad.. 

I'm sorry Shadow was unable to fulfill her potential due to her behavioral issues... but she has the best mom and owner possible and I know you have made her more then she could ever have been left by herself (she would be dead) or in other hands... this is to your credit 💗.... But there is definitely magic in watching a dog work that is bred well and fulfilling their innate instincts, guided by direction and training, but living in their talent and drive.... glorious to behold and a whole lot of fun to work behind.. I know you will do well, when it's time, with whatever you choose to train your newest edition (when it's time)...


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