# Strong and Weak Nerves



## abakerrr

Does anyone have any really good youtube/ video clips of GSDs with either strong or weak nerves being put under pressure in the protection phase of schutzhund? Can you point out the specifics in those clips and explain them a little? I'm trying to find some solid examples of both extremes to better understand the concept in what to look for. Thanks.


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## carmspack

Andy Maly Vah represents a dog with strong nerves . Andy's Website K-9 Andy - Bojovnika K-9

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Castlemaid

carmspack said:


> Andy Maly Vah represents a dog with strong nerves . Andy's Website K-9 Andy - Bojovnika K-9


Woohoo!!!! My pup's sire!


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## carmspack

seriously? which one.

Andy is the epitome of a sound GSD. I had sent a female to be bred to him, timing was wrong and she did not take. Have a return visit offered.

Eurosport should have kept him. In video he was the better of the two "major" studs that they had. My opinion . My observation . There should be a good video on Andy Maly Vah on the eurosport site . 


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## elisabeth_00117

Oooh.. I love Andy.. :wub:

I have admirered him from afar for quite some time now.


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## cliffson1

Melanie was with us at the Bernard Flinks seminar past three days. Her female Ema is also a very nice dog with a nice on/off switch and good nerves. I have worked Andy in suit and jacket....he is real. Yet he was a babysitter for her little girl a couple years ago. Nice dog!


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## carmspack

Now we need to get a nervy dog so that the OP can compare and learn.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jax08

Wooo Lucia...Gryff's Daddy sure is handsome! Guess we know where he gets his "bites through the sleeve" moniker. :wub:


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## Castlemaid

carmspack said:


> seriously? which one.


Well, not a pup anymore. Just turned 2.

Gryffon vom Wildhaus - German shepherd dog

Breeder here:

(Wildhaus Kennels, Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan)


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## Catu

Lucky dogs, that G litter!!

I loved the video.

For the OP, here you have weak nerves. All you need are the first 30 seconds, but there is more "fun" later if you want. See minute 7:10


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## onyx'girl

I love Andy too, and am happy I was allowed a pup from him.
I hope you'll be able to breed your female to him Carmen. He isn't getting any younger.

The photog that the dog focused on use to train with us, she said the handler was just as bad as her dog...


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## onyx'girl

forgot to add the link at 2:40 of the clip:
YouTube - Part 4 2010 NASS Bite Work Males


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## Whiteshepherds

On Andy's video...can anyone explain what the purpose of Muzzle fighting is, why it's done? (5:00 mark)


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## elisabeth_00117

onyx'girl said:


> forgot to add the link at 2:40 of the clip:
> YouTube - Part 4 2010 NASS Bite Work Males


Wow.. that was embarassing.. I was embarassed just watching it!

Stark ain't no top competitor but thank god he doesn't look anything like that!!!


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## Catu

onyx'girl said:


> The photog that the dog focused on use to train with us, she said the handler was just as bad as her dog...


She must have been... to need 1,5 minutes to get ahold of her dog. Pffff


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## VomBlack

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Wow.. that was embarassing.. I was embarassed just watching it!
> 
> Stark ain't no top competitor but thank god he doesn't look anything like that!!!


Oh wow yeah.. that was a little painful to watch. :crazy:


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## Jax08

Ouch!


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## carmspack

what are the people applauding for. Bad bad bad. Not even good conformation. That show was the US Nationals which is supposed to be the top flight show dogs.

I would so be the skunk at the garden party.

I was hoping there would be a video of Jello Wienerau - who was run off the field more than once A historical question re Jello von der Wienerau - German shepherd dog -- 

Those dogs in the youtube had no idea why they were there. It was a poorly executed obedience routine. At point 6:40 there is a "stunt barker" . Some dog is barking close to the camera -- it is not even the dog doing the bark and hold.

Look at the dogs in the background running around in crazy hectic circles.

There is not a single dog that I would take home. This is what the pet buying public asks for -- black and red , and male.

grrr

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

the only problem for me with Andy is the hip ratings -- I am very conservative in accepting risk 
Carmen


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## elisabeth_00117

I couldn't even get that far into the video Carmen...lol.. went back and watched the whole thing... and cringed mind you... and wow.... all I can say is... wow. How disappointing to not only those of us who are in the sport but most of all how disappointing for the breed as a whole.


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## elisabeth_00117

carmspack said:


> the only problem for me with Andy is the hip ratings -- I am very conservative in accepting risk
> Carmen


I think with Andy, the prospective owners of his progeny need to be aware of the risk and have the knowledge of what the dam will bring to their pups. 

I don't plan on breeding but from a prospective buyer (for sport and companion) I wouldn't worry to much about his ratings. JMO.


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## onyx'girl

And like Carmen points out, applause for those performances...really sad.


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## GSDElsa

onyx'girl said:


> forgot to add the link at 2:40 of the clip:
> YouTube - Part 4 2010 NASS Bite Work Males


Oh, wooooooooow!


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## BlackthornGSD

I watched the first 30 seconds and while I don't think the dog is particularly strong or drivey, I think the work is just as much a result of poor training and poor drives than poor nerves -- perhaps more so than poor nerves. We are not shown strong work, but weak work is not always a result of weak nerves.

What's trickier to see, and perhaps more important to recognize, is weak nerves when you have a dog with good training and high drives.


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## Jax08

Speaking of Andy's hips and his progeny....

Aren't the G litter Xrays being done right now? What were the results?


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## Mrs.K

BlackthornGSD said:


> I watched the first 30 seconds and while I don't think the dog is particularly strong or drivey, I think the work is just as much a result of poor training and poor drives than poor nerves -- perhaps more so than poor nerves. We are not shown strong work, but weak work is not always a result of weak nerves.
> 
> What's trickier to see, and perhaps more important to recognize, is weak nerves when you have a dog with good training and high drives.


Agreed.


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## elisabeth_00117

I've seen a few who posted and they look pretty darn good!


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## Samba

Darn that girl for sitting at the corner of the field!

That man had an impressive cough there in the video. A highlight.


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## GSDElsa

BlackthornGSD said:


> I watched the first 30 seconds and while I don't think the dog is particularly strong or drivey, I think the work is just as much a result of poor training and poor drives than poor nerves -- perhaps more so than poor nerves. We are not shown strong work, but weak work is not always a result of weak nerves.
> 
> What's trickier to see, and perhaps more important to recognize, is weak nerves when you have a dog with good training and high drives.


You need to watch the video Jane posted at 2:40


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## BlackthornGSD

GSDElsa said:


> You need to watch the video Jane posted at 2:40


I was referring to the females at the SS video.

As far as the male... he had no drive for bitework and no idea why he was on the field and obviously not a good representative of a GSD male.

But my point still stands--these are the easy targets. Would be nice to see video of some of the trickier to recognize dogs with nerve problems.


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## elisabeth_00117

I would also be interested in dogs being used as studs in the recent years/current who are still being used that would be weak nerved or "iffy" nerved?


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## Catu

BlackthornGSD said:


> But my point still stands--these are the easy targets. Would be nice to see video of some of the trickier to recognize dogs with nerve problems.


True, those are the easy targets, you just need to put Sieger show in You tube and you have dozens. I'm culprit. Also, the OP asked for dogs under pressure, which is not the case in the videos.


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## onyx'girl

Samba said:


> Darn that girl for sitting at the corner of the field!
> 
> That man had an impressive cough there in the video. A highlight.


Yeah, maybe he thought she was a lamb with a reflective vest...he did have a great herding stare!
She said she tried to show no confrontation in her body language, thats why she stayed in a down!


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## Samba

It is much harder to spot in the not-so-easy targets. Always makes me appreciate those experienced at dog reading who can spot the nuances and small things.

Also, I don't think anyone will be naming any names.


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## Mrs.K

Samba said:


> It is much harder to spot in the not-so-easy targets. Always makes me appreciate those experienced at dog reading who can spot the nuances and small things.
> 
> *Also, I don't think anyone will be naming any names*.


It doesn't matter if you do or don't. Insiders _know_. But will it change anything? 
Not as long as there is the big money involved and as long corruption is on a daily basis and the big guys rule the scene. 

Just look at what is/was going on with Toni von der Rieser Perle. 
It's in German though. 
http://www.vom-aspeneck.de/Geschichte_von_Toni.pdf

It'll never change... sadly...

For those that actually know German...just to give you an example of every days business within the SV
http://www.vom-aspeneck.de/Hinter_den_SV-Kulissen.pdf


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## onyx'girl

Jax08 said:


> Speaking of Andy's hips and his progeny....
> 
> Aren't the G litter Xrays being done right now? What were the results?


So far Lucia and I have had the G boys done, though most of the litter have had prelims with nice looking results. 

Gryff and Gideon were done a week apart so we should get results back by the end of the month.

Here is a link to both of their x-rays:
Karlo's hip/elbow x-rays - GermanShepherdHome.net


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## elisabeth_00117

And with no one standing up and naming those names - more dogs will be bred and purchased without having the knowledge of what is wrong with the sire/dam's and of course the pups from those dogs.

Viscious cycle.


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## onyx'girl

Well thats where research and homework comes in. Too bad more don't do it and just look at the "titles" on the pedigrees


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## Mrs.K

elisabeth_00117 said:


> And with no one standing up and naming those names - more dogs will be bred and purchased without having the knowledge of what is wrong with the sire/dam's and of course the pups from those dogs.
> 
> Viscious cycle.


Actually, people do start naming names, such in the case of Toni. Which is one of the more current things going on right now. 

Jan Deymere has a very strong voice when it comes up to the wrong doing of the SV: jantiedemeyere

He has put together studies about breeding and stud dogs and how much money breeders has made because of that and how much is actually involved. It's crazy... Just scroll down and take a good lock on his studies. He puts a lot of time into his research.


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## elisabeth_00117

onyx'girl said:


> Well thats where research and homework comes in. Too bad more don't do it and just look at the "titles" on the pedigrees


Very true.

I also noticed from talking to other breeders (for almost 1.5 years!) and people involved that some are willing to help newbies and others just don't have the time or patience to explain.

One person who has been very helpful AND honest is Cliff. He's been a life saver for me and I am sure others. There are others here as well too of course.


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## lovethebreed

I don't have any video but you can come visit and I can show you a couple of east german sables that are afraid of their own shadows. 

I can't speak to the schutzhund world but I can to 'real' life.
My friend's sable goes belly up like a lab anytime another dog approaches it. She and my neighbor's sable male are both big chicken dogs. I'm thinking that's 'weak' nerves.

People on here bash the crap out of showlines but it's in the working lines as well. And just from the line titles...working lines should be able to work and not compared showlines. I doubt any wl could beat a sl in the ring. And showlines should be shown and not compared to working lines since that's not what they are. Showlines shouldn't beat working lines in the working fields. It's like comparing apples and oranges, why do it.


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## carmspack

Because it is supposed to be ONE breed.


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## elisabeth_00117

carmspack said:


> Because it is supposed to be ONE breed.


:thumbup:


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## onyx'girl

I've seen some East German dogs that are timid, as well. It happens in all lines. Thats why people should take breeding seriously.
As far as WL/SL in showing...that is subjective and if the judges wouldn't be biased there may be more WL taking top spots. Not many people get working lines to run around a ring either.


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## lovethebreed

That sounds simple enough...just put some 'pretty' in the working lines and some 'work' in the show lines and wala..one breed!


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## onyx'girl

"Pretty" is all in the eye of the beholder...I would rather look at a beautiful sable or black dog than a black and red. Mixing the lines is not the answer either, IMO.


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## lovethebreed

Subjective it is. Of course I'm on the flip side of you but I certainly respect everyone having their own personal preference. My 'pretty' is blk/red.


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## elisabeth_00117

onyx'girl said:


> "Pretty" is all in the eye of the beholder...I would rather look at a beautiful sable or black dog than a black and red. Mixing the lines is not the answer either, IMO.



Agree, I think working lines are "prettier".

I have a working / showline mix and I must say as much as I love my dog - I would never get another with mixed lines. I perfer the working lines.

I won't get into the "why" here but would never again do it. JMO.


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## carmspack

Lovethebreed I hope you are not serious -- do you know why the separation occured in the first place. Do you know what you would get if you combine a high reactive , fearful showline with a powerful actively aggressive working dog -- might be one heck of a mess. Your formula separates the totality of the animal as if one were purely looks , without any other thing such as nerves or lack of.
There are plenty of correctly conformed working dogs whose body is built for function. The show lines have become pretty , deviant , not pretty.
Visit Linda Shaws site. The Illustrated Standard Of The German Shepherd Dog
Not only that there are health and longevity issues -- tight inbreeding on popular but very flawed sires, and genetics. It does not seem to be getting any better.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

It is not a matter of personal preference . There is a written standard.
Besides the "red" comes from a source of many problems in the show lines. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> Lovethebreed I hope you are not serious -- do you know why the separation occured in the first place. Do you know what you would get if you combine a high reactive , fearful showline with a powerful actively aggressive working dog -- might be one heck of a mess. Your formula separates the totality of the animal as if one were purely looks , without any other thing such as nerves or lack of.
> There are plenty of correctly conformed working dogs whose body is built for function. The show lines have become pretty , deviant , not pretty.
> Visit Linda Shaws site. The Illustrated Standard Of The German Shepherd Dog
> Not only that there are health and longevity issues -- tight inbreeding on popular but very flawed sires, and genetics. It does not seem to be getting any better.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I agree. A lot of famous working dog studs from the past have both, conformation and the genes. If you look through the most popular and famous stud dogs from the past, most of them have the V.


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## GSDLongTimer

For every WL person out there that would never own a SL, there is SL that would never own a WL. For many 'beautiful sable' is an oxymoron.

I don't have to say 'never again' because I would no more own a WL than I would a chihuahua, and that is based soley on their looks (I'm trying to avoid the U word).

And now let the fire storm begin. lol


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## carmspack

WORKING BREED.
Utility is the beauty. Not air head lawn ornaments. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## lovethebreed

*carmspack*  
_Lovethebreed I hope you are not serious _

_*No I wasn't serious, hence the wink at the end of my sentence.*_


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## onyx'girl

> For many 'beautiful sable' is an oxymoron.
> I don't have to say 'never again' because I would no more own a WL than I would a chihuahua, and that is based soley on their looks (I'm trying to avoid the U word).


 callin' my WL the U word!!!! :teary:
















All in the eye of the beholder....:wub:


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## Mrs.K

GSDLongTimer said:


> For every WL person out there that would never own a SL, there is SL that would never own a WL. For many 'beautiful sable' is an oxymoron.
> 
> I don't have to say 'never again' because I would no more own a WL than I would a chihuahua, and that is based soley on their looks (I'm trying to avoid the U word).
> 
> And now let the fire storm begin. lol


I used to say that about showlines but I have to admit that there are some very nice showlines out there where I wouldn't have a problem at all to own them. 
This is one I'd own in a heartbeat. 
Drago (SchH3, IPO3, RH2) (Xander von Fidelius is his real name) THAT dog can work! He had a V in the protection work quite a few times as well as V's in Area Search... and is actually a prospect for the World Championships in RH.


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## Samba

Best to start with what makes the dog functional in temperament, character and skill. After you get those, choose the one that you think is "pretty". If you choose based on looks first, the dogs will loose in the long run. 

I have a houseful of dogs here from many "types" of GSD. The split is wide. In the US, a virtual chasm.


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## lovethebreed

I looked at the link and it comes across as subjective as it is written on a person's opinion. Couldn't help but notice the compliment on 'her'dog. 

I personally like some of both (SL & WL) and there are some of both I don't like. I'm certainly not here to debate either side as I don't have the knowledge, which is why I'm on here to learn.

I will say I take more value from posts that don't come across as haters. WHen feeling start coming across the posts, they lose their value.


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## elisabeth_00117

Jane you can send me your "ugly" dog any day!!!!!!!!  

In fact, I'll come up and get him to save you the trip!


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## carmspack

Linda Shaw is a friend of mine for over 25 years. She is a fine artist . She was commissioned to illustrate the standard by the national breed club , and also other breeds , which I will ask her about . "Her" dog by the way Timmy is the result of a good working canadian/american show line male who I knew and saw in training at french ring weekly. He more than held his own. Not only that he was an ambassador of the breed- very stable . The mother of "her" dog is my Carmspack Katiana, sister to a very important male of mine Carmspack Kilo . We both handled dogs in the show ring. We both belonged to one of the first schutzhund clubs and both trained in french ring. These drawings are the product of anatomical study . 

That dog Timmy or Easter Parade or whateve official name he has lived to almost 14 years. At 10 years he was in a schutzhund trial and the judge or decoy Raino Fluege said to the onlookers good performance for a young dog -- he thought he was in the 2 to 4 year range.

by the way , went back to check the wink -- didn't know if it was a raspberry or a 'come here I want to poke your eye out' . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## lovethebreed

She did a nice job on her illustrations and I didn't mean to imply otherwise, nor imply her dog wasn't a nice dog. It was just one of a couple of descriptions that had a subjective feel to it. And for me once I feel something is subjective, it tends to make me question somewhat that there is some bias involved.

I went back and checked wink too and was surprised it was a smile! I thought I did a wink!


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## abakerrr

Great videos everyone! That's exactly what I was looking for (but wow does this open the flood gates for six million questions ).

So let me make sure I have this straight. A dog with strong nerves is a dog you see engaging the decoy with confidence, power, a full grip, and/or a forward presence. A dog with weak nerves is going to be a dog that hits the decoy with reservation, a lot less intensity, a chewing grip, and/ or just kinda hangs on. Obv the dogs who took off and ran circles around the decoy and did the fearful-charges were ridiculous, but I'm more interested in reading the subtleties. Are "good nerves" the result of an individuals strong sense of self-assurance? 

Ive seen some dogs squinting their eyes and not watching the target decoy. Should a dog with strong/ hard nerves typically be expected to keep his eyes on the target?

Also (which im sure this probably deserves its own thread, but i'll throw it out there anyways), what about fight drives? Is defensive drive more from the dogs nature to protect itself/ assert itself in a problem situation? Does this make a dog "civil"? Is prey drive more from the dogs ability to take out another object/ target and less about self-preservation?

And lastly, what about threshold? A dog that's easily triggered into their driving mechanism has a low threshold, whereas a dog that takes a lot to be triggered has a high threshold?

:help:


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## onyx'girl

_
So let me make sure I have this straight. A dog with strong nerves is a dog you see engaging the decoy with confidence, power, a full grip, and/or a forward presence. A dog with weak nerves is going to be a dog that hits the decoy with reservation, a lot less intensity, a chewing grip, and/ or just kinda hangs on. Obv the dogs who took off and ran circles around the decoy and did the fearful-charges were ridiculous, but I'm more interested in reading the subtleties. Are "good nerves" the result of an individuals strong sense of self-assurance?_
*It also has to do with the foundation training*
_Ive seen some dogs squinting their eyes and not watching the target decoy. Should a dog with strong/ hard nerves typically be expected to keep his eyes on the target?_
*Looking the target in the eye would be best!*
_Also (which im sure this probably deserves its own thread, but i'll throw it out there anyways), what about fight drives? Is defensive drive more from the dogs nature to protect itself/ assert itself in a problem situation? Does this make a dog "civil"? Is prey drive more from the dogs ability to take out another object/ target and less about self-preservation?_
*Yes*
_And lastly, what about threshold? A dog that's easily triggered into their driving mechanism has a low threshold, whereas a dog that takes a lot to be triggered has a high threshold?_
*you've got it!*


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## abakerrr

Great, thanks!


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## Coastie01

Catu said:


> Lucky dogs, that G litter!!
> 
> I loved the video.
> 
> For the OP, here you have weak nerves. All you need are the first 30 seconds, but there is more "fun" later if you want. See minute 7:10
> 
> YouTube - 2010 North American Sieger Show Females Bite work


 
Quick question for you all. To me that seemed to be poor training not weak nerves can you explain what in the first minute of that points to weak nerves?


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## onyx'girl

Courage


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## Fast

abakerrr said:


> A dog with strong nerves is a dog you see engaging the decoy with confidence, power, a full grip, and/or a forward presence. A dog with weak nerves is going to be a dog that hits the decoy with reservation, a lot less intensity, a chewing grip, and/ or just kinda hangs on. Obv the dogs who took off and ran circles around the decoy and did the fearful-charges were ridiculous, but I'm more interested in reading the subtleties. Are "good nerves" the result of an individuals strong sense of self-assurance?


 First off, if you have any REAL interest in learning about dogs you need to let go of the idea that if you see something with a dog it always means the same thing. When it comes to behavior 1+1 doesn't always equal 2. 


> A dog with strong nerves is a dog you see engaging the decoy with confidence, power, a full grip, and/or a forward presence.


 Sometimes, but not always. There are some very thinned nerved dogs that can look like that if they are high drive and have good training. With dogs like this you don't see the problems until the dog is pushed past the training and drive. And that's not often done in a schutzhund trial. 





> A dog with weak nerves is going to be a dog that hits the decoy with reservation, a lot less intensity, a chewing grip, and/ or just kinda hangs on.


 Sometimes but not always. By far the most intense dogs are thinned nerved. Grips are a combination of nerves, genes and training. There are some very nervy dogs that bite like alligators. Dogs that just hang on tend to be too thick of nerve and or lack aggression. 




> Ive seen some dogs squinting their eyes and not watching the target decoy. Should a dog with strong/ hard nerves typically be expected to keep his eyes on the target?


 Sometimes, but not always. A dog that has thick nerves and no drive might not look at the helper at all. 
Did you know that sharks have a special inner eyelid that they close when they are about to bite?



> Also (which im sure this probably deserves its own thread, but I'll throw it out there anyways), what about fight drives? Is defensive drive more from the dogs nature to protect itself/ assert itself in a problem situation? Does this make a dog "civil"? Is prey drive more from the dogs ability to take out another object/ target and less about self-preservation?


 Drives don't come in neat little packages. Have you ever been in a fight? What drive were you in?



> And lastly, what about threshold? A dog that's easily triggered into their driving mechanism has a low threshold, whereas a dog that takes a lot to be triggered has a high threshold?


 Most times, but not always. Sometimes when a dog is overwhelmed with stimulus they shut down. Have you ever been so overwhelmed in emotion that you couldn't move or think straight?
And thresholds and nerves are the same thing to most people. 

One last thing. If you really want to learn about dogs and drives...GET OFF OF THE INTERNET!!!!! Please find a mentor or two, that has some tangible success in the sport, sit next to them at some training sessions and ask them about the dogs that you are seeing. Ask them why the dogs are being worked differently. And most importantly spend some time with those same dogs off of the schutzhund field. You will never have a clear view of things if you don't see dogs both on and off of the field.


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## Fast

Why do you guys keep bringing up how bad the showdogs work? I downloaded my first video off of the internet in 1997 and it was of showdogs being weak. I get it.....Show dogs can't work and you are appalled. That was almost 15 years ago and you are still doing nothing but bitching. When are you going to do something about it? When are YOU going to write a letter to your director of judges? When are YOU going to picket the show? When are YOU going to run for office in your club? When are YOU going to get your judges license? When are YOU going to host a show and make sure it's conducted properly? 



WHAT THE HAVE YOU DONE OTHER THAN TALK CRAP ON THE INTERNET?

I'm completely sick and tired of do-nothings whining and crying about this. DO SOMETHING OR SHUT-UP!!!


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## carmspack

change starts with education and recognition.
People are very much aware. The problem is the deviation from the breed standard to everyman's everyones desire . People want what they have, correct or not.
People want dogs that are lawn ornaments and little else. People want softee couch potatoes , huge oversized dogs, super high prey high reactive dogs (not even talking about show lines here ). 

Meanwhile the old reliable , farm-smarts , utitility dog is going going gon ... not quiet gone because there are enough people with knowledge, dedication and determination to make sure that there will be a gene pool from which to select. We have several breeders on this forum that I have known for more than a decade that are in this group . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Fast

carmspack said:


> change starts with education and recognition.
> People are very much aware. The problem is the deviation from the breed standard to everyman's everyones desire . People want what they have, correct or not.
> People want dogs that are lawn ornaments and little else. People want softee couch potatoes , huge oversized dogs, super high prey high reactive dogs (not even talking about show lines here ).
> 
> Meanwhile the old reliable , farm-smarts , utitility dog is going going gon ... not quiet gone because there are enough people with knowledge, dedication and determination to make sure that there will be a gene pool from which to select. We have several breeders on this forum that I have known for more than a decade that are in this group .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


yak..yak...yak....

WHAT ARE *YOU* DOING ABOUT IT?


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## carmspack

Oh not so Fast there Fast . Check out the web site and you'll see mucho .
How about SAR , Bomb Detection X'sss , Dual Patrol / Narcotic, Narcotic, now into Bed Bug Detection, have had 5 graduate guide dogs, Social Therapy dogs, breeding program improvements, ROM's, High in Trials, Top competition awards , High in Trial / Best in Show same event - dogs used in Popular calendar art (Brown Trout),
homes and families, farm dogs, public relations work, nutrition, 

hows about you -- Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Fast

And how have those things made showdogs better in the work or stopped weak dogs from passing?


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## carmspack

that is not what you asked , that is like dropping an anvil from a 9 storey building.

Show dogs have their own well supported , work squashing clique . The SV uses the GSD as a tourist attraction, major export business . It is big business. The SV used to have the BSZS and the BSP at the same facility at the same period. Then I guess the contrast was too great and so the working trials were moved elsewhere and at a different time. The first move was to remove the National Police dog trials.
Since the Martin leadership things keep on drifting .

I have no agenda in wishing to improve show dogs . That effort has to come from within. The weak dogs would stop passing if they were tested in a similar fashion. 

As I said education , and , recognition. I guess my best answer is that I make a concerted effort to maintain strong nerves in what I breed .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Fast

carmspack said:


> I guess my best answer is that I make a concerted effort to maintain strong nerves in what I breed .


So you just gossip about what goes on at the shows and *TALK *about the problem. :smirk:


No worries you have a lot of company. I've been listening to your kind for the last 20 years and the problem continues.

yak...yak...yak


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## carmspack

The OP wanted to be shown the difference between strong and weak nerves. Inclusive. I provided a link to a very strong, clear headed , confident dog, who had seen years of police service and was now a loving family member and sport ambassador. That was Andy Maly Vah. I approached it by showing an ideal , a positive. 
I had nothing to do with the show lines link. I was not looking for a negative representation because I feel that is already too abundant , to familiar. Someone else posted the showlines embarrassing themselves. No one ambushed them. It was there plain and simple at a rather significant show even. The thread had nothing to do with changing or improving show lines -- just providing visual material so that the OP could see what the difference is between strong nerves and weak nerves , embedded in the title of the thread , not show vs working (sport) 
Go back and look at Andy Maly Vah .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

*strong and weak nerves*



Fast said:


> So you just gossip about what goes on at the shows and *TALK *about the problem. :smirk:
> 
> 
> No worries you have a lot of company. I've been listening to your kind for the last 20 years and the problem continues.
> 
> yak...yak...yak


 
hmmmm, if I had a dog that took that long to learn he would be so off the island.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Fast

carmspack said:


> The OP wanted to be shown the difference between strong and weak nerves. Inclusive. I provided a link to a very strong, clear headed , confident dog, who had seen years of police service and was now a loving family member and sport ambassador. That was Andy Maly Vah. I approached it by showing an ideal , a positive.
> I had nothing to do with the show lines link. I was not looking for a negative representation because I feel that is already too abundant , to familiar. Someone else posted the showlines embarrassing themselves. No one ambushed them. It was there plain and simple at a rather significant show even. The thread had nothing to do with changing or improving show lines -- just providing visual material so that the OP could see what the difference is between strong nerves and weak nerves , embedded in the title of the thread , not show vs working (sport)
> Go back and look at Andy Maly Vah .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Oh I'm sorry. You posted a video. Now it's all better. :hammer:


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## carmspack

and now I will post another video so it will be even better .

While waiting for someone to show up we had a look at a video of a very impressive dog, a male owned by forum member Carolina of Johnson House , Dorian Dorian aus der Königshöhle



 
Strong , commanding, hard as needs be confident.

In conversation I pointed out that he has something which is more common to working lines and missing from show lines and that is a body tone or muscle.
Working line dogs are hardier looking and can build that muscle.

nice dogs !!! 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## psdontario

I think what Fast was asking was "What are you going to do to improve the showlines?" Carmen.
Personally, why would you want to improve them? The people that breed them think they are fine or they would not keep breeding them, would they? In order to change what these dogs have become (if you wanted to), you would have to take a program that is based on sales, show titles and sport titles, that sell the majority of the puppies in this breed and tell people what they are doing is "incorrect". Once you have "taught" everyone that it is not about money, titles and such, then you would have to build a breeding program that would require so much offsetting that it would take many generations to get it close to being back on track. You will never "teach" people what they do not want to hear, especially when sales may be lost, clubs may fold and feelings (personal) about their dogs would be hurt (which is becoming obvious with the increased emotion found in the recent posts). With all of the time and effort you would waste trying to "fix" (a word I use loosely) this strain of GSD you could have simply purchased two excellent dogs that are not only good end-user dogs, but that have complementing pedigrees that could essentially start you off on the right track. So, you take what is ideal, both physically and mentally, breed the best to the best, keep something back that you have bred and *watch it develop* (to make sure you are on track) and know when something is not working so you can cut your losses and not go about trying to offset something that is not ideal.

There is no use in trying to change an entire industry... let it collapse upon itself if it pleases. No need to get emotional over things, and sitting back over the past 20 years and listening does not help either. Some people are actually out there "doing" it and I applaud those who are making good decisions, sticking their necks out and taking the time to share the knowledge they have accumulated over the past 30+ years of "doing". This is not something you perfect, but strive for perfection (and settle for excellence 

BTW, that Dorian dog... awesome. I happened to see an ad for him on ped. database today and went through the videos. Excellent dog... as is Andy. Would be very interested in keeping tabs on his progeny in future. The video is a good reference for what I would want to see as is Andys. If Dorians breeder/handler/owner is on this forum I would be very interested in knowing where they are going to next with him.

Carmen, any good videos of daily events or other important tasks (herding, searching, etc.) that you can find that show good or weak nerves? Not any of this pre-scripted stuff... how about the Korning or Swedish Mentality tests?

Cheers,

Mike


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## carmspack

I know Mike . That is why I said that the people who have or breed the showlines seem perfectly happy with what they have. 
For those that haven't made up their mind or are new or are questioning all you can do is to provide some good examples of how things could be . I thought Andy Maly Vah and Dorian were good examples of strong confident dogs .
Will have to go looking for more videos to provide something to compare the strong nerve with the strong nerve.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## clearcreekranch

opcorn:


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> I know Mike . That is why I said that the people who have or breed the showlines seem perfectly happy with what they have.
> For those that haven't made up their mind or are new or are questioning all you can do is to provide some good examples of how things could be . I thought Andy Maly Vah and Dorian were good examples of strong confident dogs .
> Will have to go looking for more videos to provide something to compare the strong nerve with the strong nerve.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


You know what. I'd rather see those dogs in environmental stressful situations instead of them holding a helper. 

How do they deal with their surrounding? Are they confident when they get out of the car or do they lower their back, look around with fear in their eyes? 

How would they deal with a Mall full of people? Could you walk them through a mall without any incident at all? 
How about a trainstation with all that loud noises, ICE Trains rushing by, running people, other dogs... are they still confident? 
Could you take that dog on a train ride? Into the Strassenbahn? Into a Cafe? Restaurant? 

A dog can appear confident by holding a helper and act like a coward the minute he gets out of the car.
Those are things I am interested in and you can't always tell that from a dog that is holding a helper.

I remember the German Police not only testing our dogs in Schutzhund but taking them to the Police Station and testing them in different environments, waaay outside their comfort zone. If the dog showed any stress they wouldn't take it. Schutzhund isn't everything. It's so easy to put a dog under stress and find out who really has the nerves. Easiest way is to take them on a stroll through a mall. That shows much more than any Schutzhund Title can reveal.


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## carmspack

well Mrs K I am surprised. 
Clearcreek is your popcorn salted, if not share the box with me . 
The one thing I know thoroughly inside out is that schutzhund is not an indicator of a strong nerve BUT or is it butt? , you have to have an EYE for a dog. That is what Anne the Vandal has been saying over and over and over. (include me).
There are dogs on the sleeve that you can just see are stressed . They cannot hide it. Here in Dorian we have an ice cold calm dog , 100% in control of himself (repeat HIMSELF) and the situation. Dogs with low thresholds do not have that self control that self confidence that ability to cap . The emotions leak out all over the place.
Dorian can be defended by his owner . I think he is a special dog. I have nothing to gain , unless she wants to give me the dog (wink) because I would take him at the drop of a hat. 
The other dog I provided as an example Andy put in a full life's career as a working police dog. Did you see the video. Did you not see his conduct with young kids and a crowd.
The dogs I put into service are snooped from a young age. That means that there are always professionals in law enforcement that are checking in to see what we have on tap . By "we" I mean Mike Clay of psdontario , who is the raising part of this little venture. Mike has two at the moment that have already sparked interest.
Along the way those dogs are taken away by some member of law enforcement, away from familiar turf and familiar handler and they are tested, whether it be in a violent rain storm tracking in standing water, or taken to a warehouse , or to the mechanics. They select the environment. This does not happen with schutzhund. 
Another reason I don't have faith in the titles. You must know the dog.
You defended a lack lustre performance of a golden retriever , and you have seen the dismal attempts of multiple entrants of the USA GSL Sieger show and yet you question Dorian and Andy.
Sorry I just don't get it.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K

Urm, I am not questioning Dorian. 

All I am saying is that I'd rather see dogs in environmental stressful situations, it gives you the full picture. 

And a Golden Retriever performing in a sport has NOTHING to do with a GSD having strong or weak nerves.


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## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> All I am saying is that I'd rather see dogs in environmental stressful situations, it gives you the full picture.


But this is something any owner/breeder/trainer can easily do on their own. I think above all else it is the owner's responsibility to really understand THEIR dog and not expect the Schutzhund club or a judge to always be the ones doing these tests and evaluating the dog. Any time I have a new dog I take it away from the house *every day* for about two months straight, testing it in any situation I can find. Construction equipment, bridges, elevators, all types of stairs, any sight, sound, smell, or surface I don't have had home. For me the point of Schutzhund is the PROCESS and not just the trial. The years of training exposes the strengths and weaknesses in the dog that aren't as obvious as when you put a puppy on a slippery surface and see if he notices. I think any dog owner - Schutzhund or not - should seek to understand their dog and know how it reacts to environmental stress. I don't think this has to be built into Schutzhund. There already is the ATTS Temperament Test which exposes the dog to various things and rates the dog against the proper temperament for the breed.


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> But this is something any owner/breeder/trainer can easily do on their own. I think above all else it is the owner's responsibility to really understand THEIR dog and not expect the Schutzhund club or a judge to always be the ones doing these tests and evaluating the dog. Any time I have a new dog I take it away from the house *every day* for about two months straight, testing it in any situation I can find. Construction equipment, bridges, elevators, all types of stairs, any sight, sound, smell, or surface I don't have had home. For me the point of Schutzhund is the PROCESS and not just the trial. The years of training exposes the strengths and weaknesses in the dog that aren't as obvious as when you put a puppy on a slippery surface and see if he notices. I think any dog owner - Schutzhund or not - should seek to understand their dog and know how it reacts to environmental stress. I don't think this has to be built into Schutzhund. *There already is the ATTS Temperament Test which exposes the dog to various things and rates the dog against the proper temperament for the breed.*


And yet nervy dogs get through that test and end up in the breeding programs. So how good of a test is it really? 

Maybe there has to be something new implemented in order to weed through dogs. Seriously, how many nervy dogs are out there, being bred over and over and over again, adding to yet more nervy dogs out there... 

Everybody is complaining about what Schutzhund has become, yet nobody wants to see any changes to improve the testing and to get new ways to weed through weak and strong nerved dogs. 

And yes, I tend to differ between sport and breeding. 

Sport is Sport, Breeding is Breeding.


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## Liesje

Which dogs/breeders? The test is quite rare. I don't know any breeders that use it standard as part of their program (that said, I don't know any breeders that would breed/not breed based on the outcome of that one tests....which was my point, people need to KNOW their dogs).


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## Mrs.K

Oh, wait, you were talking about the American Test. Nevermind, I was talking about an entirely different thing. Should have taken a closer look. My fault.


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## carmspack

Mrs.K said:


> And yet nervy dogs get through that test and end up in the breeding programs. So how good of a test is it really?
> 
> Maybe there has to be something new implemented in order to weed through dogs. Seriously, how many nervy dogs are out there, being bred over and over and over again, adding to yet more nervy dogs out there...
> 
> Everybody is complaining about what Schutzhund has become, yet nobody wants to see any changes to improve the testing and to get new ways to weed through weak and strong nerved dogs.
> 
> And yes, I tend to differ between sport and breeding.
> 
> Sport is Sport, Breeding is Breeding.


Exactly the point of the long and lenthy responses to another recent thread -- golden retrievers doing schutzhund.
So in your above statement you are being contradictory because previously you said a golden should be able to pass and that everyone should be able to participate for the fun, in my words now, to pass some pleasant idle Sunday hours away.
Either it is to be a test which eliminates the unworthy or it is a hobby/pass time. 
Every time someone suggests it be brought back to a meaningful examination , as a breeding test, then you have just as many if not more that want to further reduce it to some choreographed safe little exercise where people applaud for dogs that fail to engage (isn't that cute) or dogs so clueless of why they are there that they gaze at passing clouds and butterflies.

which way?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Hundguy

Mrs.K said:


> You know what. I'd rather see those dogs in environmental stressful situations instead of them holding a helper.
> 
> How do they deal with their surrounding? Are they confident when they get out of the car or do they lower their back, look around with fear in their eyes?
> 
> How would they deal with a Mall full of people? Could you walk them through a mall without any incident at all?
> How about a trainstation with all that loud noises, ICE Trains rushing by, running people, other dogs... are they still confident?
> Could you take that dog on a train ride? Into the Strassenbahn? Into a Cafe? Restaurant?
> 
> A dog can appear confident by holding a helper and act like a coward the minute he gets out of the car.
> Those are things I am interested in and you can't always tell that from a dog that is holding a helper.
> 
> I remember the German Police not only testing our dogs in Schutzhund but taking them to the Police Station and testing them in different environments, waaay outside their comfort zone. If the dog showed any stress they wouldn't take it. Schutzhund isn't everything. It's so easy to put a dog under stress and find out who really has the nerves. Easiest way is to take them on a stroll through a mall. That shows much more than any Schutzhund Title can reveal.


 
to a novice eye I would say this is correct. If you can't tell the difference between a dog who is uncomfortable "holding" the helper or "gripping" the sleeve than more time you should spend at the Regional & National trials!!

For me environment testing should be done as a puppy and is as basic a test as it gets! It really is a given, and is something that can not be hidden once you get past a local level trial. If I were testing an adult for a pet/companion home than yes, this type of testing is as high as needed, but not for breeding or a working breed GSD temperament! I am not a pet breeder, I am a German Shepherd Dog breeder!! :toasting:


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## G-burg

> And yet nervy dogs get through that test and end up in the breeding programs. So how good of a test is it really?
> 
> Maybe there has to be something new implemented in order to weed through dogs. Seriously, how many nervy dogs are out there, being bred over and over and over again, adding to yet more nervy dogs out there...
> 
> Everybody is complaining about what Schutzhund has become, yet nobody wants to see any changes to improve the testing and to get new ways to weed through weak and strong nerved dogs.


None of this really matters.. What difference is it gonna make, coming up with new tests or putting SchH back to how it was or adding this or adding that.. 

*At the end of the day, people are gonna do what they want to do, PERIOD (we're living it now).. *Doesn't matter what kind of tests are out there.. All this back and forth has become pointless and everyone has the best of the best.. Yet half the people breeding don't have a clue what's sitting right there in front of them, regardless if they pass a test or not.. Doesn't matter if the dog is a spook or has nerves of steel.. They will all still get bred.. H e ll we still have people breeding dogs with bad elbows and hips..

Here's some food for thought... Maybe, just maybe if all who are breeding would just give their pups away or couldn't charge any money, how many people would still be doing it? How many people would still want to breed and or say they're really in it for the love of the dogs???

That's my meaningless rant for the day, sorry! :shrug:


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## carmspack

why need to give them away? 
how many would still be doing it? 
Reality is the pay is not worth it -- very little to compensate for time and trouble and expenses.
The satisfaction is getting good dogs out there that are useful and helpful and better our lives.
Isn't that what we warn newbies with $$$'s in their eyes -
That is how it is here 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Liesje

G-burg said:


> *At the end of the day, people are gonna do what they want to do, PERIOD (we're living it now).. *Doesn't matter what kind of tests are out there.. All this back and forth has become pointless and everyone has the best of the best.. Yet half the people breeding don't have a clue what's sitting right there in front of them, regardless if they pass a test or not..



Agreed!


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## carmspack

In this thread since Dorian a d Konigshole is being discussed I would like to draw this fact to your attention.
Dorian Dorian aus der Königshöhle - German shepherd dog

and Kessy Dorian aus der Königshöhle - German shepherd dog

have the same sire - Vox v d Kine .

apparently producing some nice dogs

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Hundguy

Well, seeing this thread was about "Weak vs Strong Nerves" which I look at it differently I view it as "Thin vs Thick Nerves" but maybe it is just a terminology thing!! 

Now is morfing into something else, what does it all boil down to though? The Dogs? The Tests? The Judges? The Breeders? the Breed Organizations?


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## cliffson1

I have been in love with Vox for some years!!


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> In this thread since Dorian a d Konigshole is being discussed I would like to draw this fact to your attention.
> Dorian Dorian aus der Königshöhle - German shepherd dog
> 
> and Kessy Dorian aus der Königshöhle - German shepherd dog
> 
> have the same sire - Vox v d Kine .
> 
> apparently producing some nice dogs
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I like his pedigree. Some very nice dogs in there.


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## Hundguy

cliffson1 said:


> I have been in love with Vox for some years!!


 
Too many oversized dogs coming from Vox.. One of the only things I can find fault coming through him regularly!! IMHO.. :toasting:


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## cliffson1

I have heard that too about size with Vox, but for all the pluses I am willing to sacrifice.


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