# Ceaser millan vs Victoria Stilwell?



## Sophiamve (Aug 5, 2012)

Who do you think is a better trainer? Just wanted to hear your thoughts, lol


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

MODS PLEASE CLOSE THIS!!! Holy crap this has been beat to death. OP- do a search.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's a link to tons of previous discussions on Milan & Stillwell: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ds/142826-cesar-milan-victoria-stillwell.html


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> MODS PLEASE CLOSE THIS!!! Holy crap this has been beat to death. OP- do a search.


Come on wildo, be nice. New members don't realize about the old threads.

The link attached is a good one. For me...I like them both and they are very different. 

Cesar really ends up dealing with some really scary situations/dogs that are in a life/death (for them) situation if he can't help. 

Victoria is able to deal with more normal dogs that just have owners that are over their heads and have no idea what owning a dog involves. So with her guidance and training information they can get on the right path.


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

And, as a final note, Cesar Milan does not _train_ dogs.
So as far as dog training, Victoria would win hands down.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

There are things I like in each of them and things I don't in each of them.

I like CM for his capacity to deal with harder and more aggressive dogs, and he doesn't give up on dogs. But sometimes I don't agree with his psychological analysis or dominance theory, and there are also times when harshness is not necessary (although he's learning more positive methods and that's admirable, at least his pride is not in the way to accept new methods).

I like VS's methods as they are nice alternatives, but I don't like her arrogance and how she criticizes people that uses corrections.
Also, there's that Benjy's episode in which I find her judgement about how serious dog bites were a bit too exaggerated, as I don't see RG aggression that serious. On the other hand, I guess that I agree the PTS decision as the dog attacked the family children for no apparent reason after the RG attack (or so they said, average owners might have missed some signals, dog might have perceived some object as threat, and so on) and with such a history, he might not be very adoptable while it's not safe to keep him in the family anymore.
But I didn't like how dramatic she made the RG attack seemed, as it can influence many owners to dramatize over RG attacks in the future and consider PTS without much thoughts. That's the power of a well-known trainer, if a well-known trainer said it's very bad, then who are the average owners to deny it?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Come on wildo, be nice. New members don't realize about the old threads.


I _was_ being nice.


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## glinny (Sep 14, 2011)

I can figure out most of the abbreviations on the forum but what is RG?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I like and prefer Victoria.

She doesn't take crap from the bad owners, she tells them what they are doing wrong and how to fix it, she uses positive training and informs people about the problems that come with over feeding their animals. She also tells the owners how important it is to play with their dog and exercise their dog both physically and mentally.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

glinny said:


> I can figure out most of the abbreviations on the forum but what is RG?


You got me!  :wild: :wild:


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

RG = Resource Guarding. Resource Guarding aggression means aggression (snapping, growling, attacking) related to a dog protecting his food, toys, chews, humans, other animals and so on.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Heck of a choice.... wouldn't choose either one.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

It's a pity that there are no balanced trainers that are focused on positive methods but can use corrections when necessary and is not afraid of it, nor so obsessed about dominance (TV show wise). I wish that there are more trainers that can realize that it's not about which extreme you want to follow, but rather which methods works on different dogs and are willing to focus on the dog's well being rather than which philosophy is the one.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

sheep said:


> It's a pity that there are no balanced trainers that are focused on positive methods but can use corrections when necessary and is not afraid of it, nor so obsessed about dominance (TV show wise). I wish that there are more trainers that can realize that it's not about which extreme you want to follow, but rather which methods works on different dogs and are willing to focus on the dog's well being rather than which philosophy is the one.


That may not make as interesting a tv show...


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

warpwr said:


> And, as a final note, Cesar Milan does not _train_ dogs.
> So as far as dog training, Victoria would win hands down.


 
I don't know about that! 

Would you say that *your dogs *are as well trained and behaved as Daddy and Junior were/are??????????

Mine is definetly not in their class.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I like Cesar, don't much care for Stilwell. Something about her rubs me the wrong way (maybe it's the dominatrix costume) and IMO she is often way off. In one episode there was a mean, snarly, snapping little Chihuahua, and Stilwell says "Oh, this poor little doggie! He's afraid of you, and you are in his space! Don't invade his space like that!" 

While her advice on how to deal with the problem was okay--a sort of NILIF approach--I really don't agree with the philosophy that a dog living with humans gets "personal space" which humans must never invade. What if you have to pick up your dog, or trim his nails, or brush him, or take something out of his mouth? If it were a GSD and not a Chihuahua, I think Stilwell's ideas would have been different. 

And I don't think the dog was fearful of the owner, as the owner spoilt him terribly, and never disciplined him. I think he was just a dominant, bratty little Napoleon. I see dogs like this in the grooming shop--most always little dogs--a spoiled little prince who think I am "not allowed" to touch him in certain places. In most cases, the owner simply backs off when the dog shows aggressive, dominant behavior, thereby reinforcing it... then I get to be the one to undo it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

They're both good trainers, Cesar just happens to deal with more dangerous cases. I hate that he gets so much flack when all he's doing is fixing what the owners have messed up. He comes in and explains to people that what they are doing is bad and that they just need to change what they're doing for their dog to fall in line. None of his corrections are horrible, if you think that poking thing he does is bad on the dog, I wonder how you correct your dog when they do something wrong. Positive only reinforcement is a technique that takes time and takes a special dog (in its older months) to come around to. I do believe it is a better way to train, but it is also a more time consuming way. It's great if you need a relationship with your dog due to trialing or other stress filled situations in which you really really need your dog to perform. For the regular dog owner, that kind of training isn't always the best. Some of these dogs and families don't have months of time to rehab their dogs, they need a quick solution and both Cesar and Victoria find ways to do that.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I wouldn't ask either one for training advice, but I gotta say Cesar is probably a heck of a lot more fun to hang out with


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

I agree. Personally I would use positive methods when I can, but when I can't or not know of any that is good to deal with certain behaviors, I would use corrections.

What I think is that dogs or humans are biologically built to be capable of learning what they shouldn't do through aversive experiences without getting traumatized. There's no point in exaggerating every kind of corrections.
Also, if we ever stop dealing with some behavior just coz we can't find a positive way to deal with it, it can be selfish and cruel to the dog as he won't have a chance to be "fixed" then, since the owner would not be willing to use alternate methods.

I have a very confident dog that is not easily scared nor care much for firm corrections. I only correct him for bad behavior, and he does know I mean business, while he's never scared of me. He developed dog reactivity due to some past trauma, so that we can't control him whenever he's in that state. Average leash jerks, super high value treats, nothing. Of course that I can do training with him by doing gradual approach to other dogs. But where can I find so many perfect dogs to just sit there and wait for us to do that? And how much time would I need to achieve that? And worse... if someday I do need to control him, what would I do, since I can't then give him the choice to decide what's best.
So we went for a trainer, he taught us to use pinch collar, and he's much better now. We did not like choke chains nor pinch collars before as it seemed extreme and we did not want tools that we don't know how to use and could harm our dog. But actually, pinch collar isn't that bad at all. My dog is not afraid or anything. Maybe coz he's a strong dog, but then if he were to be a softer dog, probably the previous methods we tried would have worked anyways.
But if we stopped trying just coz we don't want to use firmer corrections, then he would never be able to socialize with dogs again. Now he met 2 new friends, and will be able to meet more when he behaves better and reacts less. 

I guess that VS would have screamed at me if she sees me in the real life lol.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I like Victoria and don't care for Ceasar. I think the show (victoria's) pretty much sucks though as it is the Jerry Springer selection of dog owners. Yes, if the dog has a place at the table and is eating from a fork, sorry, my chin would be on the floor too. Poop all over the house and in the kids bedrooms, yeah that's not judgmental, that is plain mental. 

I have Ceasar's book and read it, and am not really that against what he says in his book. I don't like his show at all. I think he puts way too much emphasis on dominance. I suppose he has his dog-selectors choosing the dogs that would be in San Quentin if they were humans. And maybe more of the way he responds to such dogs is needed. My problem with that, is that he portrays these dogs as the norm, and way too many people think their 15 week old puppy is being dominant and needs to be treated as Ceasar would.

Ceasar is an upright character with an abundance of self-confidence. Most dogs will flock to that type of leader whatever the method of management he uses. He could use a clicker, or simple praise, or treats, or any number of training aids/methods and dogs would respond. They also respond to compulsion and punishment with him. I think that most people lack patience as well as confidence. Ceasar can try to help people give the right signals (body language/confidence, etc.) to their dogs, but I think the compulsion methods get results quicker than positive methods do, and since people are so bloody impatient, they will try something two or three times, for a few minutes, didn't work, positive training sucks. So Ceasar gives the the negative reinforcers, because too many people want immediate results.

People see Ceasar as confident and take charge. People see Victoria as arrogant. I claim that is just the difference in society of how we view men and women. Men are expected to speak out and be take charge. Woman are expected to be uncertain and quiet. Victoria gets under people's skin because she is confident and take charge, for a woman that is considered arrogance. When you look on the TV and see some woman coming in and taking charge, and telling you what to do, and telling you like she knows what she is talking about, that might rub you the wrong way. But if you have a dog that has a problem, and you call someone in, you want someone who gives you the impression that they know what they are doing. She would not be where she is today if she was quiet and uncertain. I see this all the time, between how men are viewed and how a woman is viewed, and the worst offenders of this are women. 

What I like about Victoria (who does actually work with dogs that are being a problem in their home-setting) is that she has more in her tool box than dominance and corrections. If something is not working for a dog and owners, she will adjust or try something else. She leaves and comes back, which gives the impression that this isn't going to happen overnight. The rest of the baloney in the show is because that is what Hollywood thinks we the people want to see, and it turns me off.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wildo said:


> MODS PLEASE CLOSE THIS!!! Holy crap this has been beat to death. OP- do a search.


It really has been beaten to death. I hope the OP reads the link to all the previous discussion on this exact same topic. I know I'm tired of it personally, and have already said all I'm interested in saying. If other people want to go to the trouble of typing out yet another reply to this same question, I guess they're free to do so. 

Carry on. :shrug:


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

codmaster said:


> I don't know about that!
> 
> Would you say that *your dogs *are as well trained and behaved as Daddy and Junior were/are??????????
> 
> Mine is definetly not in their class.


But Daddy and Junior were not _trained_ to behave the way they do.
And yes, I would say that my dogs would behave very well for Cesar. 
Immediately and without any prior training by him. I bet yours would too.

My point is, he doesn't "train" dogs to sit, down, stay, heel, fetch, roll-over, speak, etc. 
His technique is more behavioral, observing how dogs do things and using those methods as opposed to training them.
So maybe we just disagree on the definition of the word train.

I've been to dog training many times over the years and none of it has been done using Cesar's methods. 

He even says he doesn't train them, he rehabilitates dogs and trains people.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I am not a fan of Cesar's methods or his focus on dominance/alpha (which is based off of flawed wolf studies that have since been debunked) and I don't like the way he often misinterprets/misreads dogs' body language. I do like his focus on giving dogs proper exercise and clear rules. 

I am not a huge fan of Victoria either though, although from what I remember her methods seemed ok. I haven't seen her or her show in years and only saw a few episodes back then. So I can't say much about her as I don't remember that much.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Freestep said:


> I like Cesar, don't much care for Stilwell. Something about her rubs me the wrong way (maybe it's the dominatrix costume)


The dominatrix costume is the reason my 86-year-old dad watches the show.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Funny thing about all the back and forth on the love/hate Cesar threads is no one really wants to challenge his results just the process. For me Im a results driven guy, I dont get to caught up in the process if it works its good enough for me. Im not talking about methods that will cause a dog permanent injury here so relax.. He uses a lot of +R training for his fear related cases and a lot of compulsion for his cases in which there is a lack of respect in relation to rank with the dog. I dont really bother myself with what all the critics and degree laden individuals say. The man takes on large aggressive animals that in many cases would be put down and rehabs them in a short period of time. He owns a pack of 40+ dogs that all had various fear and aggression issues in the past and they co exist peacefully with him. People get caught up in the form of his corrections the theories he expounds etc. If you read his books he is honest about his failures as well as his successes. In the animal world results speak for themselves IMO. If the critics knew better I am sure they would have a show on TV too and be world renown trainers.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

paulag1955 said:


> The dominatrix costume is the reason my 86-year-old dad watches the show.



LOL I always wondered about that outfit

I like how she lays into irresponsible owners and stands up for the dogs... Big plus in my book


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