# Big red flags on the Breeder we got our dog from?



## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

So we wanted a dog, and found a local breeder. We went to see the puppies and we wanted a specific one from the website.

So, we end up getting the dog, and just a receipt for the purchase. The breeder said the papers take 30 days and that she will give them to me when I take the puppy back for his second set of shots.

Does this sound right to you?

I have constant cell phone contact with her, sometimes lengthy conversations, but something doesn't seem right. Even on the transaction receipt I wrote the dogs name, and that the purchase is for the dog with all his papers.

I can't find anything online about the breeder in a negative way. I could only locate another older website that they use, and I couldn't find anything negative online or with any agency about them.

I did not meet the father or the mother dog either.

Thoughts?

Thank you, great forum you have here.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Did you only see one pup or the whole litter? Most breeders have all the paperwork in order at the time the pups leave at 8 weeks. There are too many unanswered questions to even know whether or not you've been duped. How did you find out about the breeder? Internet classified?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Each puppy I've bought has come with a paper that gives me instructions for logging on the AKC web site, putting in a code, and then registering my dog and ordering whatever additional papers I want. Papers are important to me because I need them for showing, so I don't pay for the puppy unless I have the ability to register the dog in my hand. I've never had to wait for anything from the breeder but just based on that I wouldn't make accusations on a public forum. I guess it just depends on what is important to you....did you expect to receive papers? Did you want to meet the mother and father? These things are important to me but maybe not important to someone else.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

If I remember correctly I didn't get the papers for my golden on the spot. The breeder did mail them to me and then I sent them in. I did get to meet the parents and all the puppies. I never purchased a pure breed, so I didn't know how it was suppose to go. I did pay by check, so maybe they were waiting for the check to clear?? I know mine held the check because I wasn't sure if the puppy would work in the household or if I was even prepared enough for a puppy. She told me i could bring him back if it didn't work, although she was confident it would. I have gone back with him quite a few times to visit.


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

Maybe the breeder was swamped and didn't send the papers in on time to have them ready for the pick up? For my litter I faxed everything over and they had puppy papers within about 2-3 wks from my fax date as they were a bit backed up. If you have any questions ask the breeder for clarification and if you want to see the parents as to set up a meeting?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

My breeder mailed the papers to me but that was over 10 yrs ago. When we rescued tasha she came with her papers.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

Hi,

Thanks for the responses so far. Yes, I purposely left out any identifying information so as not to make accusations. I am hoping that they are just not very organized, as everything I am finding really doesn't look good for us. Everything I read says NEVER ever pay for the dog until you have the documents.

This lady is very nice, really cares about the dogs, but just seems like she's a little all over the place. I hope that means she's just unorganized with the docs. The pedigree databases that someone like us would have access too don't show the pup registered. The father and the grandfather are in there though. At least the dogs she told us the puppy came from are listed anyhow. I guess you never know which dogs bred with who unless you actually watch the whole process of them mating.

She also said that she wants to use my dog to breed later, and I have intentions of showing him, or she wouldn't be able to breed him. They had another litter of puppies there too. Our dog was a singleton from a first time bred dam.

I hope I'm wrong. Something just feels weird about this, given that everyone says that a legitimate breeder would send you home with all the docs on the day of purchase.

Thank you for all the responses.


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## Candace (Sep 13, 2012)

Next Thursday when I pick my boy up (squee!) I'll be finalizing all paperwork with the breeder on the day. He will submit all paperwork for his name etc to dogsNSW for his title. I will get him on full register. Then once we become members I transfer the title to our name. Though in Australia they may handle these things a little different 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

Oh, she also gave me the contact info for the dogs father, so I can go see him. I'm very new to this whole breeder thing. I have lots of experience with german shepherds, but none with breeders. 

I'd love to send some of the people that want dogs to her, I just want to make sure my transaction is closed completely first.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Did you only see one pup or the whole litter? Most breeders have all the paperwork in order at the time the pups leave at 8 weeks. There are too many unanswered questions to even know whether or not you've been duped. How did you find out about the breeder? Internet classified?


I just figured out how to quote people. Haha.

Yes, we found them online. I had some shady experience with another breeder first where they wouldn't show me the contract before we made the purchase. We moved on to other breeders. This breeder where we got the dog doesn't have a contract.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

Gilly1331 said:


> Maybe the breeder was swamped and didn't send the papers in on time to have them ready for the pick up? For my litter I faxed everything over and they had puppy papers within about 2-3 wks from my fax date as they were a bit backed up. If you have any questions ask the breeder for clarification and if you want to see the parents as to set up a meeting?


Yes, it's possible they are really swamped. I am a business man by trade and maybe just a little too formal.



llombardo said:


> If I remember correctly I didn't get the papers for my golden on the spot. The breeder did mail them to me and then I sent them in. I did get to meet the parents and all the puppies. I never purchased a pure breed, so I didn't know how it was suppose to go. I did pay by check, so maybe they were waiting for the check to clear?? I know mine held the check because I wasn't sure if the puppy would work in the household or if I was even prepared enough for a puppy. She told me i could bring him back if it didn't work, although she was confident it would. I have gone back with him quite a few times to visit.


This is encouraging. I am hearing some legitimate cases where people did not get their papers the day of.



Liesje said:


> Each puppy I've bought has come with a paper that gives me instructions for logging on the AKC web site, putting in a code, and then registering my dog and ordering whatever additional papers I want. Papers are important to me because I need them for showing, so I don't pay for the puppy unless I have the ability to register the dog in my hand. I've never had to wait for anything from the breeder but just based on that I wouldn't make accusations on a public forum. I guess it just depends on what is important to you....did you expect to receive papers? Did you want to meet the mother and father? These things are important to me but maybe not important to someone else.


I hear this a lot.

Thanks for the continued information.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

SchutzenWoof said:


> She also said that she wants to use my dog to breed later


I might consider this a red flag.

How does she know, at this puppy's age, that he is breedworthy? Why does she want to breed this specific puppy? You can't make those kinds of decisions for an 8 week old pup... sure, you can be hopeful, but if you have aspirations for a certain pup, you usually want to keep or co-own that dog with someone you know and trust. 

Breeders, would you sell a pup on a breeding contract, or would you want to retain at least part ownership?


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## Odin24 (Jun 29, 2007)

I bought my puppy and had to wait to get the AKC paperwork mailed to me. The breeder used an outside male and the owner of the male had to see and give approval of the puppy first before she would let it carry her kennel name. I had a past relationship with the owner of the stud that was used and didn't have a problem trusting that the paperwork would be forwarded to me. It helps to use a breeder that you trust.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I've never had to wait for registration papers, altho I do know that some breeders send them in later than others, so that isn't really a red flag for me.

What is weird to me, is that you had to basically write out a receipt? and she signed it? 

No contract doesn't raise a red flag to me, because again, there are some breeders who don't have contracts, (european?) but wanting to use your dog for breeding would be a concern since as one posted, how do they know the dog would be 'breedable' when it's only 8 weeks old? Maybe they mean, "IF" the dog is breed worthy she'd like to use it? 

With no contract stipulating that, you can do or not do whatever you like with "your" dog 

I would just wait out the 30 days and see what transpires, I hope your happy with your puppy otherwise and of course we'd LOVE to see PICTURES!:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

SchutzenWoof said:


> The pedigree databases that someone like us would have access too don't show the pup registered. The father and the grandfather are in there though. At least the dogs she told us the puppy came from are listed anyhow. I guess you never know which dogs bred with who unless you actually watch the whole process of them mating.


If you mean THE Pedigree Database, it's a free site and not an official registry so you can add your dog at any time. Your dog won't show up until someone adds him, even if he's already registered with the AKC.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I had to wait for Grim's papers as well. My breeder had a lot of things going on and didn't get the papers right away.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

Yes, a verbal understanding was IF he is good for breeding, it would be something that we'd consider. 

Again, I just want to make sure that I'm clear that this is all exploratory conjecture at this point. 

I am very thorough with everything I do, and the research I've done leans towards "no papers at purchase time", no dog. 

I'd love to refer this particular breeder more clients, as I routinely travel in the demographic that can still afford the money that line breeding dogs require. You would think that would be a motivator too.

We shall see. A lot of what you've all written here is comforting, and I hope we're just dealing with someone who doesn't really like paperwork.

Much appreciated, and YES pictures soon!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Odin24 said:


> I bought my puppy and had to wait to get the AKC paperwork mailed to me. The breeder used an outside male and the owner of the male had to see and give approval of the puppy first before she would let it carry her kennel name. I had a past relationship with the owner of the stud that was used and didn't have a problem trusting that the paperwork would be forwarded to me. It helps to use a breeder that you trust.


Interesting because the litter generally carries the kennel name of the dam not the sire as the breeder is the owner of the dam not the owner of the sire.

I wouldn't touch a dog that doesn't have papers presented at the purchase time unless there were real legitimate reasons. The biggest one being that the female or the male are having their papers transferred from a European registry to an American one. I believe that as soon as your register a litter, the breeder can get a litter number. The litter number is all you need to register your dog online on the AKC website.

I'm not saying you won't get registration on the dog, but this does sound weird to me. If my business was breeding dogs, one of the first things I would be doing is registering a litter once it was born. I'm pretty positive that its a small fee and just a single piece of paper sent to the AKC with the dam's and sire's registration numbers.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

Elly Mays AKC papers came in the mail about a week after I got her.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

What I would do is make sure you take the puppy to the vet for an examination. Never took a pup back to a breeder for shots before.

I have gotten papers different ways, sometimes with the name of the puppy filed in for me to send in, others with it blank.....with Beau, she had already registered him and it was just transfer paperwork even though he was about 10 weeks old. So I gather it is all over the place how it winds up.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

My GSD's original owner had a lot of problems getting her papers from her breeder. She was from good lines and her parents were titled, etc...
But her breeder didn't send the papers for a long time and they had to keep pushing, finally when the breeder sent them, they were Canadian not AKC and were for the wrong dog-- they belonged to one of her litter mates. 
Apparently some other people had similar issues with her breeder also.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I now register all of the pups for my puppy people. Once I know which pup is going where, they pick a name and then I have been paid for the puppy, I go on line and register the pup in their name. The papers are sent to them directly. Don't think it takes much more than a week or so.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> What I would do is make sure you take the puppy to the vet for an examination. Never took a pup back to a breeder for shots before.
> 
> I have gotten papers different ways, sometimes with the name of the puppy filed in for me to send in, others with it blank.....with Beau, she had already registered him and it was just transfer paperwork even though he was about 10 weeks old. So I gather it is all over the place how it winds up.


Hi, 

Yes, we have a great vet. He went the very next day. On some meds now for the whole diarrhea thing, but other than a bit underweight, the vet says he is healthy. They did fecal tests and everything. He's still got a bit of diarrhea, but it seems to be getting a little better. Gave us 3 kinds of meds, and we're feeding him prescription food for the last 5 days so far.

Thanks for all the input folks.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Oh also wanted to add, in my dog's case her breeder named the puppies so it wasn't even an issue of having to wait for that, she was a "b" litter so all the puppies had "b" names given by the breeder.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Boy this will get people going, but it is kind of funny. 

I wonder what red flags people were putting up on me. This year I bred a couple of females about 9 weeks apart. Ok, exactly nine weeks apart. So on the day my pups from litter 1 were eight weeks old, I was delivering puppies for litter 2. 

I had gotten the house cleaned, mostly, but I had two sets of people coming over that day, and my girl decided she needed to go and have her puppies NOW! 

Ok, I admit, I called Mom and had her send Dad over. After having him vacuum the living room, I set him the task of putting together the eight little booklets with all my propaganda in them. I gave him one of my own dog's books to use as an example and ran into help the girl spit out another puppy. 

The phone is ringing off the hook, and I am really thinking I should just not let the people come over to look at the puppies today, but the first lady was a breeder, and she understood what was going, on, and was perfectly ok with coming out. I had been up all night, and just didn't have it in me to argue. So I got the eight week old pups out front, and while she checked them out, I kept running back in to assist my girl to have another puppy. She was on number nine by the time the lady left were her puppy, her food, and her little booklet. 

After about an hour she calls me. I think it is my sister, and so I say, nine, 5 boys, 4 girls. She said something like, that's great, but I have a question. So I got it that she was not my sister. She asked me who the father actually was, I had one sire listed on the AKC application, and the pedigree of another sire. 

Uhg! Oh no!!! I rushed into the other room to figure out if I screwed up the AKC papers. I didn't, I just copied the first sire I used with Jenna's papers, instead of the new sire's papers. So back in to check on the other girl, and then over to the neighbors to ask if they had a copier, and I was able to fix all the booklets, and send the proper copy to the owner of the first pup. 

Normally, papers go with the puppy. I have withheld papers when giving a payment plan, but someone told me the AKC isn't too fond of that. Currently I need to send one person papers, I delivered a puppy to her on trial, and haven't sent the papers to her yet. Bummer. I keep forgetting. I have been in contact with her several times though. I just need to send them out. 

My guess is the breeder is worried that you won't follow through with the second set of shots. It sounds like she provides the second set. Not sure. I know that if for some reason you do not want to keep the puppy, if they fill the papers out there and then, they will have to go and fill out an application for a duplicate certificate -- did that this year. Not a huge deal, but it took a couple of weeks to come through. They may be trying to avoid that, or ensuring your check clears. Hard to say. Also very possible that they did not register the litter until later.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Oh yeah also wanted to add, despite them asking they never did get the dog's actual papers...IIRC after a while, the breeder eventually refused to even respond to her. This all was over several years (it took I think a year before she got the first incorrect papers).


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

selzer said:


> Boy this will get people going, but it is kind of funny.
> 
> I wonder what red flags people were putting up on me. This year I bred a couple of females about 9 weeks apart. Ok, exactly nine weeks apart. So on the day my pups from litter 1 were eight weeks old, I was delivering puppies for litter 2.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the lengthy reply. Since I have the vet, he'll be giving the second round of shots and the rest for that matter. She was paid in full and has all the money now. The puppy was pretty underweight and he's now on a lot of meds to get that all sorted. Still has diarrhea. There's a lot going on in his little life right now. 8 weeks old. Introduced to a new home, lots of new people, two kitties that aren't necessarily fond of him yet, three kinds of medications, and prescription dog food. If I hadn't taken him to the vet and had the tests, etc I'd be a little more worried. He's very active, playing, very well mannered. Learning like a rock star. Already pretty much crate trained. Sits by the door to go out to pee when he's out of the crate. Sits for his dinner before being fed. 

Thank you all so much for your replies.


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## FrankieC (Aug 15, 2012)

lhczth said:


> I now register all of the pups for my puppy people. Once I know which pup is going where, they pick a name and then I have been paid for the puppy, I go on line and register the pup in their name. The papers are sent to them directly. Don't think it takes much more than a week or so.


This was what our breeder did and the service was appreciated.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

There are legitimate reasons for not getting papers with a puppy, but there are so many scammers out there that the AKC put a warning on their website. 

"Be wary of excuses such as "AKC hasn't sent the papers yet." The AKC Dog Registration Form should be available at the time you pick up your puppy. If not, wait until the breeder receives it before you pay for and take home the pup. "

American Kennel Club - Puppy Buyers Beware


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

To me, not getting the papers would be a huge red flag unless I knew the breeder personally and saw them on a regular basis, and even then...questionable. If I'm paying $1000+ for a puppy, that paperwork better be filed and in my hands the day I give any kind of payment (barring some huge misunderstanding or life event). From conception, to whelping, to releasing the puppies is about a 4 month period and sorry if the breeder can't find 30 minutes in that 4 months to fill out some paperwork, I wouldn't even consider the puppy. Also really weird that the dam wasn't on site and you couldn't see her. I know some people like to work their dogs and might have them in trials or whatever, but I have a hard time believing a breeder couldn't wait to show/trial a female that just had puppies 8 weeks ago (I can guarantee that dog isn't in breed ring condition).

Does your contract state that the dog comes with AKC (or another club) registration? Do you have copies of the dam's/sire's AKC pedigrees (not all breeders provide this but its nice)? If you do have that much contact with the breeder, I wouldn't be worried quite yet. But if they end up going silent one day, I wouldn't hold my breath for the registration.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> To me, not getting the papers would be a huge red flag unless I knew the breeder personally and saw them on a regular basis, and even then...questionable. If I'm paying $1000+ for a puppy, that paperwork better be filed and in my hands the day I give any kind of payment (barring some huge misunderstanding or life event).* From conception, to whelping, to releasing the puppies is about a 4 month period and sorry if the breeder can't find 30 minutes in that 4 months to fill out some paperwork*, I wouldn't even consider the puppy. Also really weird that the dam wasn't on site and you couldn't see her. I know some people like to work their dogs and might have them in trials or whatever, but I have a hard time believing a breeder couldn't wait to show/trial a female that just had puppies 8 weeks ago (I can guarantee that dog isn't in breed ring condition).
> 
> Does your contract state that the dog comes with AKC (or another club) registration? Do you have copies of the dam's/sire's AKC pedigrees (not all breeders provide this but its nice)? If you do have that much contact with the breeder, I wouldn't be worried quite yet. But if they end up going silent one day, I wouldn't hold my breath for the registration.


Just want to point out a few things. 

1. You cannot register a litter until there is a litter to register, so that knocks it down to 8 weeks, and yes, there is plenty of time for a normal litter to be registered in that time. Even if you are using an outside stud, so long as you paid the stud fee, the stud owner will usually send out her approval by e-mail as soon as she gets it. No problems.

2. I don't register until the puppies are about a week old, that way I know how many I will have, etc. Still plenty of time.

3. If you are dealing with an import or a dog from a different allowable registry, things take longer. A LOT longer. I started the minute my bitch was shipped in, and the papers were not ready by the time Cupcake was 8 weeks old. It wasn't a big deal though, as she went to someone familiar with the system. And she had the papers before they were needed.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

SchutzenWoof said:


> The puppy was pretty underweight and he's now on a lot of meds to get that all sorted. Still has diarrhea.


*This alone*would be a red flag for me. 

Sick puppy plus no meeting the dam plus no papers plus no contract on what she considers a breeding potential puppy?


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I see red flags no one is mentioning...No where has he said he has the registered name and number of the mom!!!! No where has he got a pedigree!!! No where does he say he has proof of hips/elbows certified!!! He never met mom who could be a serious spook or vicious dog. 

What he has is a sick, under weight pup from a mom he didn't meet, has no idea of her name or if she has hip/elbow issues!!! He has nothing written saying who the sire is for sure nor a pedigree to prove anything. I'm sorry but you got taken, you have supported a BYB and probably bought yourself a lovable dog with potential for many health issues and maybe temperment problems.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

trudy said:


> I see red flags no one is mentioning...No where has he said he has the registered name and number of the mom!!!! No where has he got a pedigree!!! No where does he say he has proof of hips/elbows certified!!! He never met mom who could be a serious spook or vicious dog.
> 
> What he has is a sick, under weight pup from a mom he didn't meet, has no idea of her name or if she has hip/elbow issues!!! He has nothing written saying who the sire is for sure nor a pedigree to prove anything. I'm sorry but you got taken, you have supported a BYB and probably bought yourself a lovable dog with potential for many health issues and maybe temperment problems.


Yes this is our fear. 

You are right. All I have is the Sire and Grandfathers name (supposedly). I have nothing on the mother, except the first name, which could easily be made up.

I am sure that you guys here understand that some of us just want a good dog, and we're willing to pay for it. It's sad that an industry that is supposed to be built on such trust has it's own predators. Should that end up being the case. If so, you all will be the first to hear who it is.

Given the knowledge I have of this particular breeder and their businesses, it would be unwise for them to screw me over. I'm one of those people who does not take things like this lying down. I have funds, and the determination to make things uncomfortable. I already have that plan worked out, as this seems to feel more and more like it's going to be a disappointment.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> 3. If you are dealing with an import or a dog from a different allowable registry, things take longer. A LOT longer. I started the minute my bitch was shipped in, and the papers were not ready by the time Cupcake was 8 weeks old. It wasn't a big deal though, as she went to someone familiar with the system. And she had the papers before they were needed.


Yeah I know some things happen, that's why I said barring some big misunderstanding or life event. I know sometimes there are hick-ups, but if I was considering a breeder they better tell me about a hick-up up front and not just tell me "its in the mail."

That's the issue of paying $1000+ for a product. Unless I completely trust the breeder, I better have everything my product is supposed to come with when I give the breeder the money. Like in your case, if I was looking for an "import" puppy, found myself in that kind of situation, I'd understand if it took longer due to the whole process. I also remember you telling the story and I'm sure you told it exactly the same way to the buyer that you told us all on the forum. But if say you just said, well she's imported so it will take longer, they papers will be in the mail when I get them, I wouldn't really accept that.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

SchutzenWoof said:


> Yes this is our fear. Given the knowledge I have of this particular breeder and their businesses, it would be unwise for them to screw me over. I'm one of those people who does not take things like this lying down. I already have that plan worked out, as this seems to feel more and more like it's going to be a disappointment.)


What does your contract say? Do you even have a contract?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I noticed where you said you wanted to show this dog and then she wanted to use him for breeding? Do you mean in Conformation? Did you get any guarantees that this is a show potential pup? Was the sire or dam shown? Are they champions? 
Years ago, in the stone age, when you had to mail AKC paperwork for registering litters it took about a month to 6 weeks. I would always get litter registrations in the mail when babies were about a week old, that way I knew I would have the individual papers when babies were 8-9 weeks old when they left. This gave me plenty of time for mailing paperwork across the country to AKC, down time while paperwork was being done, then mailed back to me. I always had paperwork to go with babies, including copies of OFA paperwork and titles on the sire and dam, vet check paperwork on individual puppies. This was all sent with the new baby when it left my home, along with my contract signed by both myself and the new family. 
It makes me a bit concerned that you never saw the dam at all. Where was she when you went to pick your puppy? Or was puppy sent to you by plane? What excuse did the breeder use to not let you see the dam?. Did she show you OFA paperwork on sire and dam? 
I know folks are busy these days, but since litters can be done online now, it only takes a few minutes to fill out and get sent to AKC, all done on computer. Doesn't have to even be done during business hours, can be done anytime. I can't imagine a breeder had NO time to register this litter in the last 8 weeks. That would concern me a bit. Also, if she gives the puppies shots, does that mean they never had a vet check at all? I gave my own shots, but puppies still went to vet and had a check up before going to their new homes. 
I would be concerned that you might not be getting papers or at least AKC papers. Maybe this breeder does one of the "pretend" registries, which I am told takes longer to process. Continental Kennel Club is one used by many breeders now, especially in pet shops, because you can register a litter of puppies without the sire or dam being registered. Some breeders claim "ckc" papers, but these are not legimate Canadian Kennel Club papers, but Continental Kennel Club papers. 
I hope this turns out well for you, but I see so many red flags...


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

> I am sure that you guys here understand that some of us just want a good dog, and we're willing to pay for it. It's sad that an industry that is supposed to be built on such trust has it's own predators. Should that end up being the case. If so, you all will be the first to hear who it is.


I don't know where you think the industry is built on trust, ever heard of puppy mills?? puppy brokers? BYB? It is an industry of buyer beware, as all industries are, Everyone should insist on proof of things first, not buy and then question, that is how the unscrupulous breeders stay in business. Good breeders ask you to fill in a questionaire, they check YOU out and offer proof of all papers/certificates, etc.. They are PROUD of their dogs and what they produce. They show off moms, dads, siblings, relatives, wins, titles, etc.. You won't get away without a large envelope of info, pics, copies of parents papers or registration numbers, OFA records, Titles, 

You should take this pup back, demand your $$$, and do your research first before signing the check. It might be hard to believe you have been taken but ask yourself why didn't you get a healthy pup? why didn't you meet mom? why don't you have copies of papers and titles and the parents health certificates? When you answer these questions you will then have to acknowledge you have been taken...He will be a good pet for someone maybe, but not a show dog for anyone and may not even ever healthy, 

Truth hurts and I am sorry, try sharing the info, do your checks first, ask teh right questions and don't be so quick to take the first deal you come across.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There seems to be a lot more important _red flags_ than papers in this case. If the question is soley papers, then I wouldn't be concerned at all. Not really. Yes, I would want them, but if they told me they would send them in x number of days, I really wouldn't worry. 

As Trudy mentioned, not having the dam present or available, no contract, no pedigrees, no discussion on the health screenings, sick pup. Papers are important, but really not so. Not unless you are showing or breeding the dog, and I kind of link those together. Otherwise the papers really don't mean anything much whatsoever. 

What we have here is a person who had a suspicion about the breeder, doesn't like what he saw, but bought the puppy anyway, and now is worried about what? About the paperwork. Why? Is this a young breeding prospect? If it is a young breeding propsect then all that other crap, who the dam is, what are the health screenings, what the dam is like, is even more important. Really. 

Bottom line is, if you don't like something about a breeder, don't buy a puppy from them. Don't expect to catch it up later with some type of revenge. The paperwork should have been ready, but it sounds like the breeder has some weird schedule, possibly to ensure checks clear, who knows, and just didn't want to say she doesn't know you from Adam, and is letting you pay by check, but isn't going to give you papers until she sees everything clear in the bank. 

And with CCs it is even worse, because people can cancel payments. Or, she has a period for which she will take the pup back and does not want to go through the hassle of getting more paperwork in the event the pup is returned. As I said, I had to one time, and it was a big enough pain, that I really don't want to again. 

I guess, if you already have the puppy, why not wait until the date that she assured you the paperwork would be provided, and if it is not come on with a big "I JUST KNEW IT!" 

The thing is, AKC paperwork is really not all that hard to procure. You do not need titled dogs or champion dogs, or even dogs that look like a good representative of the breed for the dog to be registered, and if it is registered, it can produce registered puppies. There are some people who will hope that you will be so infatuated with your puppy that by the time they come out and say they can't get the papers for some reason, you will still want to keep the puppy. But mostly people can provide paperwork. Mostly. If they can't well, then they have either gotten suspended by the AKC -- huge red flag, or they bred one or both dogs who aren't registered.

And this simply doesn't compute to me. Yes, there are stupid people everywhere, but the minute most people find out that the dog they paid for can't be registered, they are going to file a claim in small claims court for the purchase price of the dog. Chances are the judge will give them the entire purchase price back plus court costs. If papers are a concern, than no papers makes the dog next to worthless, I mean if you bought the dog for breeding, no papers means that is no-go. So the reason you paid X for the dog, was because it had papers, and you can convince any judge that you were sold something under false pretenses.

So it just doesn't make sense in my opinion for them to say they will knowing they cannot. Sorry.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

martemchik said:


> What does your contract say? Do you even have a contract?


No contract, which I could NOT believe!!!!

Also, here is what I wanted in a dog.

1) Great companion, first and foremost.
2) Obedient, able to learn obedience.
3) Take him to some Schutzenhund training.
4) Protect my house.

I don't care at all about breeding or shows, or anything. I just feel like this person potentially took advantage of my kindness. If that is the case, so be it, I have a contingency plan.

You're all great. Thanks for your advice.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

selzer said:


> There seems to be a lot more important _red flags_ than papers in this case. If the question is soley papers, then I wouldn't be concerned at all. Not really. Yes, I would want them, but if they told me they would send them in x number of days, I really wouldn't worry.
> 
> As Trudy mentioned, not having the dam present or available, no contract, no pedigrees, no discussion on the health screenings, sick pup. Papers are important, but really not so. Not unless you are showing or breeding the dog, and I kind of link those together. Otherwise the papers really don't mean anything much whatsoever.
> 
> ...


You, correct. 

I did not notice anything sketchy until we were already home and a few days in.

I don't have any desire to breed this dog. I don't have any desire to show this dog.

The breeder mentioned all that. I just wanted a legitimate transaction, and it's looking that I could be disappointed in that. 

Doggy is going to the vet and will be loved either way. What daddy does, depends on what happens in the next 23 days.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

trudy said:


> I don't know where you think the industry is built on trust, ever heard of puppy mills?? puppy brokers? BYB? It is an industry of buyer beware, as all industries are, Everyone should insist on proof of things first, not buy and then question, that is how the unscrupulous breeders stay in business. Good breeders ask you to fill in a questionaire, they check YOU out and offer proof of all papers/certificates, etc.. They are PROUD of their dogs and what they produce. They show off moms, dads, siblings, relatives, wins, titles, etc.. You won't get away without a large envelope of info, pics, copies of parents papers or registration numbers, OFA records, Titles,
> 
> You should take this pup back, demand your $$$, and do your research first before signing the check. It might be hard to believe you have been taken but ask yourself why didn't you get a healthy pup? why didn't you meet mom? why don't you have copies of papers and titles and the parents health certificates? When you answer these questions you will then have to acknowledge you have been taken...He will be a good pet for someone maybe, but not a show dog for anyone and may not even ever healthy,
> 
> Truth hurts and I am sorry, try sharing the info, do your checks first, ask teh right questions and don't be so quick to take the first deal you come across.


You words do not hurt. Far from that. 

He'll be a great pet. "Showing him" is a way to keep the ties with this particular breeder intact until I see what happens.

Keep beating me up, I am really fine with it. 

I don't live on the river "de nile". 

Thanks folks. The information is very helpful. I wish I had heard of this forum before hand.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah I wish you would've joined this site before you got your dog. Probably would've been pointed in a better direction. You might still have gotten a great dog, I didn't get mine from what would be considered a "reputable breeder" but he has a great temperament and so far no health issues. Neither parent was titled, but I did get papers the day of the sale and I also met and played with the dam and the sire.

Don't feel bad, chalk it up to a learning experience, I hope your dog turns out to be everything and more than what you expected. Sadly, without a contract, there is probably little you can do when it comes to the legal system. If you choose to write reviews and let other people know about this breeder and their practices that is your decision, but don't do it on this forum (its not allowed).

If you wanted to do Schutzhund training...you should've found a breeder that does Schutzhund and gotten a pup from them. Luckily, 99.99% of GSDs are extremely smart and trainable, I have no reason to believe your dog won't be the same. Train him, enjoy him, and don't give two thoughts of where he came from. Get involved in a Schutzhund or a training club so that next time you make a more informed decision. Stay on the forum and learn from other people and their experiences.

You're not the first and you're not the last to have something like this happen to them.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I missed a few things, like the puppy being sickly

The contract thing doesn't bother me, I have purchased a couple of dogs with no contracts because I had a pretty good idea of what I was buying. 

And tho I have recieved papers upon receiving puppy, again that wouldn't bother me if I "knew" who I was dealing with.

Puppies can get sick, but to buy one sickly, well, not sure what the extent of his illness is, that would depend on things for me.

I'm assuming you knew there was no contract so you knew that What was the reason you didn't meet "mom"? 

I guess I would ask, and you certainly don't have to answer, what you paid for this puppy?


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

Sorry for multiple posts.

Selzer, the payment was an instant bank authorization. No checks.

I will go the small claims route if necessary. They will probably make me give the dog back though. The kids will be crushed.

Thanks again.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

actually I will add, since "we" don't know where he got this puppy, (and please don't put the breeder name out here he could possibly end up with the best dog he's ever owned , yes there are some red flags, but hey things could work out in his favor,,which I hope they do


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Yeah I wish you would've joined this site before you got your dog. Probably would've been pointed in a better direction. You might still have gotten a great dog, I didn't get mine from what would be considered a "reputable breeder" but he has a great temperament and so far no health issues. Neither parent was titled, but I did get papers the day of the sale and I also met and played with the dam and the sire.
> 
> Don't feel bad, chalk it up to a learning experience, I hope your dog turns out to be everything and more than what you expected. Sadly, without a contract, there is probably little you can do when it comes to the legal system. If you choose to write reviews and let other people know about this breeder and their practices that is your decision, but don't do it on this forum (its not allowed).
> 
> ...



Hi, and thanks. Yes, no need to do it here. It's all about search engine rankings. Reviews are protected and cannot be removed by businesses. 

Like you said, if it is so, lesson learned. The vet says he is great, just has some worms. He's going back to get checked again next week.




JakodaCD OA said:


> well I missed a few things, like the puppy being sickly
> 
> The contract thing doesn't bother me, I have purchased a couple of dogs with no contracts because I had a pretty good idea of what I was buying.
> 
> ...


Paid 2k.

I did not know he was sick until he had some diarrhea the next day we were home. Thats all it is though. Vet says that it will clear up.

We have a great vet in the family. 

To be honest, asking about the Mom was really a stupid mistake on our part. We saw the Dads, (sire/grandpa) online, and the Grandmother, but no Mom.

Website was not well produced, so the rest of the chaos did not surprise me. Should have let it all absorb a bit more I suppose in hindsight. Sever case of "Never bought a dog at a breeder" disease. Should have paid closer attention.

Either way, I am not serious about shows and what not, like you guys are. I admire you all. I wish I had that kind of time. I love these animals. Grew up with them.

I have a lot of experience with them, so I'm sure we'll be OK. I've got training experience too. Not Schutzen level, but I know how to handle dogs.

Again. You guys are great. All of you. Thank you.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> actually I will add, since "we" don't know where he got this puppy, (and please don't put the breeder name out here he could possibly end up with the best dog he's ever owned , yes there are some red flags, but hey things could work out in his favor,,which I hope they do


Agreed. Thank you, I have no plans of outing the breeder here. 

Thanks for the well wishes.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

If your goal was for a nice pet, then you may end up with just that. Should you have done more research? Yes, but as a friend says to me on a regular basis, there is no rewind on this life so learn from it and do better next time. 
I would hope for the papers and keep my fingers crossed that he is generally healthy and go from there. I would not, however, continue the cycle by getting into a breeding scenario with the dog, the breeder or anyone attached to the situation.
You could absolutely get into AKC performance type activities with him (you can get PAL papers that give you the option of entering him for obedience, agility, rally, etc) and learn about training and the breed. We have a girl in our Schutzhund club with a GSD she bought at a pet shop with no papers who just got her scorebook and will be attempting her first title this spring.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well 2 grand is no drop in the bucket I wouldn't worry about the diarhea, (I thought it was more than that)...Puppies pick up all kinds of weird stuff, no big deal there.

I agree with Annette^^, and we aren't all die hard show people here These dogs are so smart, they don't necessarily have to be "schutzhund material' to certainly be able to do ALOT of other activities if you so desire..

I think your on the right path, and again, at this point, I'd wait on the akc reg , and go from there..

Keep us updated and I hope it all works out


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> well 2 grand is no drop in the bucket I wouldn't worry about the diarhea, (I thought it was more than that)...Puppies pick up all kinds of weird stuff, no big deal there.
> 
> I agree with Annette^^, and we aren't all die hard show people here These dogs are so smart, they don't necessarily have to be "schutzhund material' to certainly be able to do ALOT of other activities if you so desire..
> 
> ...





bocron said:


> If your goal was for a nice pet, then you may end up with just that. Should you have done more research? Yes, but as a friend says to me on a regular basis, there is no rewind on this life so learn from it and do better next time.
> I would hope for the papers and keep my fingers crossed that he is generally healthy and go from there. I would not, however, continue the cycle by getting into a breeding scenario with the dog, the breeder or anyone attached to the situation.
> You could absolutely get into AKC performance type activities with him (you can get PAL papers that give you the option of entering him for obedience, agility, rally, etc) and learn about training and the breed. We have a girl in our Schutzhund club with a GSD she bought at a pet shop with no papers who just got her scorebook and will be attempting her first title this spring.


I think you've both summarized this experience nicely. Thank you.

There will be no breeding scenario with our dog or this breeder. 

PS: I've got insurance with a hip dysplasia add on, just in case they are lying about the good hips on the parents, which is more possible than not.

The vet and the insurance company said I can drop it after a year or so if nothing shows up.

What do you guys think about that?

Professional opinions welcome.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Obviously this breeder does care about her reputation? It isn't hard to make noise about a breeder when someone is upset and google is a great friend when internet posts name names with reviews.(Don't do it here, of course, but there are other venues to do so) IF you've been taken advantage of, the breeders reputation will be at risk. Whether or not she cares about that remains to be seen. 
I agree about the runny poo....that often happens when pups change diet, home, stress from whatever/but I'd have fecals run to rule out parasites/virus as the cause.
Enjoy your puppy! This stage goes by way too fast, and take lots, n lots of pictures!!!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Well...its horrible when HD shows up before the dog is one year of age, it is also extremely rare. HD generally takes some time to develop, and you can only "diagnose" it if its a milder case or a developing case after the dog is 2 years old. If you notice issues in your dog before the age of one, you get x-rays just to confirm but its usually pretty noticeable.

If you're really worried about HD then I would keep the insurance, my issue with insurance is that its 20-30 bucks a month and you will probably not get your money's worth unless it involves yearly physicals and preventative care. HD is prevalent in this breed, but the majority of cases are when the dog is much much older, usually at an age where a hip replacement is just to prolong the obvious and probably not in the dog's best interest.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

HD, if the dog has it, can be diagnosed at anytime with xrays. A 6 month old puppy can be xrayed and if it has HD,can be diagnosed easily at that time. OFA numbers will only be given at 2 years old, prelims can be given at any age from a puppy on, but will only be posted on the site at 1 year old. 
I have had OFA do prelims on a 9 month old Sheltie puppy and was diagnosed with both hips having severe HD. This puppy moved like a dream in the show ring, but I was noticing when he moved, he was lowering his head slightly. I decided to xray him, sent the prelims to OFA and they gave me the diagnosis. He had horrible hips.
I know another dog that won group after group, fabulous movement, could jump, with no issues and moved like a smooth machine. Did her hips when she hit 2 and she had the worst set of hips I have ever seen........ 
My first GSD at a year old was fine one day, came out of her crate limping slightly one morning and I took her in for xrays. Didn't even send them in, one hip was subluxated out, one had no hip socket to speak of. She never limped until that day. Did FHO on both hips.
What I am trying to say is HD under a year old os not so rare at all. Many many cases of it are dignosed everyday, that is why OFA suggests prelims if you have a concern. A severe case can show up as early as 5 or 6 months. 
Don't assume that if your dog doesn't have HD at a year, it will never have it. But, don't assume that a dog under a year old won't have it either.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

what wyominggrandma said^^

A dog just doesnt develop HD (remember elbows are just as important) if they have it, they have it. 

I would keep the insurance for a year just in case something crops up. I would prelim hips/elbows before your insurance is going to lapse. If nothing shows up, if your comfortable, cancel the insurance, if you think you should continue it, by all means do so.

The majority of people (pet owners) never bother to xray their dogs unless something crops up, limping etc..Sometimes as poster above stated w/her experience, you would just never think anything was wrong as there are no clinical symptoms.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

HD before 1year being rare is not accurate....actually it is the opposite....by one year of age you know what the dog will be hipswise in over 90% of the time. That's why Germany certifies hips at a year of age.....because you know what you have in a vast majority of cases.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You can certainly diagnose HD before 2 years (and you can rule it out too). You cannot get an OFA rating before 2 years but the OFA is not the be-all or end-all of HD diagnostics. It takes time for the arthritis to progress but the dog either has HD or not; borderline dogs would be what is more rare and where you would want to monitor over time for changes but in most cases you can check early. I check my dogs at 6-7 months and so far have not had the ratings differ from the prelim opinion of the vet between 6 months and 2 years.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

We have done the register the litter and puppies on line from the 1st litter we bred. It is simple, fast and the registration goes directly to the new owner.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Is it possible this puppy was in lieu of a stud fee? That would explain why the mother was not on premises and the papers were not yet available.


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

gagsd said:


> Is it possible this puppy was in lieu of a stud fee? That would explain why the mother was not on premises and the papers were not yet available.


Good question. Would actually make some sense. 

The fact I'm here is really telling too. A customer of this particular breeder is resorting to discussing her transaction with other breeders on a forum. To me it means she's doing something wrong. As the days go by, and you great folks keep providing information, the pieces are starting to fall together for me. I'm still hopeful, but either way I'm ready for whatever happens.

Thanks to all again.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

What can happen is that you got a wonderful puppy that will become a great dog. And you will feel a bit embarrassed for doubting your breeder. You never know. Just enjoy your pup!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is what I am hoping for. 

BTW, I sent the papers out to my person who is waiting, LOL!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yes, you can diagnose a dog by 1 year old but most people wouldn't because pet owners aren't going to x-ray their pets. My point in saying its rare is that a quick search showed that only 4% of GSDs have hip dysplasia. For me, that's rare, for the rest of you it might be very common. I know that these are just statistics from the OFA institute so in theory these should be the "better" bred dogs that are going to show homes or sport homes and most likely breeding prospects as that is the majority of people that use the OFA institute.

My point was that as prevalent as HD is in our breed it still is a "rare" occurance when you look at the whole population of GSDs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

X-ray is the only way to diagnose HD, so any pet owner that suspects it would be instructed by their vet to have x-rays done in order to rule it out or make the diagnosis. The dog doesn't have to be 1 year old. Some dogs who need surgery have it done before that age. I don't really know the percentages or how "rare" it is in the breed but just disagreeing that it is something that develops over time or cannot easily be ruled in/out before 1 year of age.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is 25% of GSDs, whose owners sent them in. 

Lots of people never get their dogs x-rayed. As the dog ages, arthritis sets in or not, some dogs can have HD and never have symptoms. 

Once they are x-rayed, it costs another 30 bucks or so to send them to the OFA. Pet owners who have a problem and get their dog x-rayed get a diagnosis from their vet and probably wouldn't bother sending them in. People who want to work the dog, or do agility, might x-ray, but getting a rating doesn't mean anything, why pay the extra 30 bucks? And breeders, well, if they look at the x-rays and think they may pass, they will send them in. They are not always going to send them in if they do not pass. Why? If you see it there, what's the point of paying another $30 to get it confirmed by the OFA? It does not mean breeders will use these dogs, just that they are not necessarily going to send in the films. 

So it is possible that a good percentage of that 25% are actually films that people hoped would pass, but did not. 

In any case, it is not a reliable sample. I think there are more than 4 in 100 GSDs with HD, I just think it is very under-reported.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah my dog was also purchased by her prev. owner as a show/breeding prospect so not having the right papers was kinda an issue...


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Exactly Selzer. Most pet people do not send in to OFA. The percentages they are talking about are from the folks who do send them in, performance, showing/breeding, etc. Most pet people who own GSD, if they have problems, take them into the vet, get the vets diagnosis and go from there. We are lucky to have folks who will do xrays. Most say" well if the diagnosis is HD, what do we do? The vet will say" give supplements, watch weight,etc. " So the owners go no further, most don't even xrays.
I never sent in my first GSD xrays, there were so bad, anyone could look at them and see how bad they were. I didn't send them in, had surgery on her. Many of the shelties I did were for breeding potential, but the majority of Sheltie folks don't xray, so there percentages are fairly low, but in reality the number of Shelties with HD is huge. Same as Berners. 
 25% sounds great when you read the percentages, but imagine if everyone sent in xrays to OFA for their GSD........... I think it would be a huge change, not for the good.
Most people will not send in because they are usually bad enough that they will not breed the dog, so the vet's recommendation is used.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

25% ???? Thats a joke...I know its not a full sample or the population but at my club there are probably about 5% of dogs with HD and most of the dogs there do get x-rayed because people are interested. You can talk stats with me all you want, but in general a small sample does not differ from the whole population by that much. And you guys are talking a 20% jump! I could guarantee that 25% of GSDs do not have HD. It would be so so much more prevalent and every other post on this forum would end up being "my dog just got diagnosed with HD" and yet we only get a few of those every once in a while.

You realize by your percentage a quarter of the member's dogs on this forum would have HD...and no, most people on this forum do not have the greatest bred dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, that was my mistake, for some reason I took the 4% that was listed in a previous post, and meant to say 4% of dogs whose owners sent them in. Sorry. In the end of my post, I had it right 4 out of 100. 

It is a lot more then 4 our 100, 4%. Probably not 1 in 4 though -- 25%.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Ha, I read the post that 25% of GSD's are x-ray'd not that they have HD. Most people who do sportwork will do prelims to see the insides. Those that may be questionable would never be sent in for grading(unless there is a guarantee in their contract with breeder) so the actual #'s are probably a bit skewed. Most breeders that see there is questionable hips produced probably don't want that info in the database, so it is just never sent in. 
I would do prelims regardless, I want to know so I can be proactive in keeping my dog as healthy as possible.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

I OFA all my dogs- always have- even though they are all speutered pets. I may be a pie in the sky idealist but I think if breeders offered a $$ concession and required their buyers (pet, show, or work/perf) have the OFA's done it would help them improve the health of their respective breeds. Provided they use the data when making breeding decisions that is.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Too bad it isn't a requisite(though I'm not a fan of OFA) for breeding...but again two "excellent" graded dogs could produce HD so not sure it would change a thing as far as prevalence.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Too bad it isn't a requisite(though I'm not a fan of OFA) for breeding...but again two "excellent" graded dogs could produce HD so not sure it would change a thing as far as prevalence.


I'm thinking more in terms of following the data to factor in production across as well as up and down. Just having both parents with "good" hips isn't predictive, but if breeders could follow a complete data set which includes kinship analysis they could possibly avoid a breeding which results in higher than average dysplastic progeny. As it stands the data available is limited to dogs selected out for breeding and breeders may or may not know if HD is more or less of a problem within a family. It's never going to be 100% and breeders would need to weigh the consequences of possible further narrowing of diversity versus a hard push to decrease HD. But I am of the "the more data the better" school of thought.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Hips though are just a small part of the equation when choosing breeding matches and I don't see a problem breeding fair/fair grade with dogs of stellar everything else. 

I see OFA 'excellent' dogs that I wouldn't want to own, breed or train.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

martemchik said:


> Yes, you can diagnose a dog by 1 year old but most people wouldn't because pet owners aren't going to x-ray their pets. My point in saying its rare is that a quick search showed that only 4% of GSDs have hip dysplasia. For me, that's rare, for the rest of you it might be very common. I know that these are just statistics from the OFA institute so in theory these should be the "better" bred dogs that are going to show homes or sport homes and most likely breeding prospects as that is the majority of people that use the OFA institute.
> 
> My point was that as prevalent as HD is in our breed it still is a "rare" occurance when you look at the whole population of GSDs.


*The occurence stats from the OFA are useless in determining how prevelant HD is in the GSD* (or any other breed) because of the selectivity in the x-rys that get sent to the OFA. Most folks don't x-ray their dogs in the first place and only the "good" ones will even get submittd to the OFA for them to look at.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

martemchik said:


> My point in saying its rare is that a quick search showed that only 4% of GSDs have hip dysplasia. For me, that's rare, for the rest of you it might be very common. I know that these are just statistics from the OFA institute so in theory these should be the "better" bred dogs that are going to show homes or sport homes and most likely breeding prospects as that is the majority of people that use the OFA institute.
> 
> My point was that as prevalent as HD is in our breed it still is a "rare" occurance when you look at the whole population of GSDs.


No, it is not rare. But it's not pandemic or the death sentence that many people believe it to be either.

Not sure where these numbers are coming from though.You referenced the OFA database, but it clearly says neither 4% nor 25%. 

It actually says that 19% of those x-rays submitted for GSDs are graded dysplastic. Their current sample size is more than 100,000 for GSDs alone. No idea where you got 4% on the OFA database, unless you were mistakenly looking at the excellent column, which says 3.9% were rated excellent. 

Very easy info to find on the OFA website:
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Of course, that is only of x-rays that are submitted. Many people don't bother to x-ray. Many x-rays that look bad aren't even sent in but are diagnosed by the vet. And OFA is only one of many certifying bodies, though it is certainly the most commonly used in the US. I would guess in reality the percentage is probably a bit higher.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Hips though are just a small part of the equation when choosing breeding matches and I don't see a problem breeding fair/fair grade with dogs of stellar everything else.
> 
> I see OFA 'excellent' dogs that I wouldn't want to own, breed or train.


I don't have a problem with breeding fair dogs either, and I agree that hips are only part of the equation, but I would differ from you on it being a _small_ part.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm talking about the fair grading...how many stud dogs are sought after if they are fair? Or bitches bred that are fair? Even if they have everything else that is awesome... it is something to shy away from, even though it is a passing grade.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

19% of dogs sent into OFA are dysplastic, then you factor in the point that a much higher % of dogs that are clearly dysplastic are not sent in....and a higher % of dogs that are obviously good ARE sent in and it is easy to see that the real overall number is much closer to 25 to 30 % of the breed has a degree of HD here in the states.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I'm talking about the fair grading...how many stud dogs are sought after if they are fair? Or bitches bred that are fair? Even if they have everything else that is awesome... it is something to shy away from, even though it is a passing grade.


Which is what we get when people are breeding to the test (if I may take liberties with the teaching to the test meme) and why tracking data "horizontally" on a pedigree becomes important. If people are focused on paper breeding they should be looking at _all _ the paper available and working on making more and more available.

In a perfect world only people who know the dogs and what they produce(d) inside outside and upside down from the beginning of time would be breeding. People who look at the whole dog, not just health certs and titles. 

But since that is not the case and since health testing is basically reduced to a sort of "stop gap" I think it is incumbent upon breeders to make that stop gap into a veritable dam. 

Again, I admit I am "pie in the sky." 

edited to add this is all a long winded way to say I agree with you to a major extent


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Many x-rays that look bad aren't even sent in but are diagnosed by the vet. And OFA is only one of many certifying bodies, though it is certainly the most commonly used in the US. I would guess in reality the percentage is probably a bit higher.


I would guess the real percentage is a LOT higher, because I think most films that show dysplasia don't get sent into OFA. 

Think about it... if the xrays clearly show dysplasia, and both you and your vet agree when looking at them, what's the point of spending the extra money to send them to OFA? You're not going to get an OFA number, if you were thinking about breeding, you probably aren't anymore, and what is OFA going to tell you that you don't already know? I would bet that many, if not most people do not send in their films in this case.

The only reason I would submit such a film to OFA is if the hips looked borderline. In that case, I would want more veterinarians to take a look and make a definitive decision.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GrammaD how do you feel about ZW scores? They are calculated based on parentage, progeny, and siblings.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Freestep said:


> I would guess the real percentage is a LOT higher, because I think most films that show dysplasia don't get sent into OFA.
> 
> Think about it... if the xrays clearly show dysplasia, and both you and your vet agree when looking at them, what's the point of spending the extra money to send them to OFA? You're not going to get an OFA number, if you were thinking about breeding, you probably aren't anymore, and what is OFA going to tell you that you don't already know? I would bet that many, if not most people do not send in their films in this case.
> 
> The only reason I would submit such a film to OFA is if the hips looked borderline. In that case, I would want more veterinarians to take a look and make a definitive decision.


I think you are right about the % being higher but I do know that some people will send in dysplastic hips because in order to make good on the breeder's warranty they need an "official" rating, so that is one reason why someone might knowingly send in the x-rays. Or maybe they are pissed at the breeder and want to prove the dog has a problem I'm just speculating (neither has happened to me).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, on my hip/elbow guaranty, I require that the diagnosis be made by x-ray and then sent to the OFA. If I am going to replace a puppy, then I want to have more than some yayhoo saying the hips look boxy and they probably have mild HD in both hips. So that MIGHT be a reason why someone might send in films that look bad. 

What do other breeders here do, in the event of hip/elbow dysplasia, to ensure that it was made by x-ray, and good films were taken and a proper diagnosis made?

I don't require that the dog be returned, but they must provide documentation that they had the dog altered.

Uhg, Liesje, I must have been typing this at the same time.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

79.26% of percentages cited on web forums are invented, it's a fact :laugh:


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Liesje said:


> GrammaD how do you feel about ZW scores? They are calculated based on parentage, progeny, and siblings.


I like _concept_ of the breed value system and in my pie in the sky dream world we'd utilize PennHip in the process.

But can you even imagine breeders in the US submitting to this level of regulation? And what it would take to gear up PennHip to handle the volume? 

I am not in the know enough to know whether the past decade + of ZW has reduced the incidence of HD- do you know?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

HELLO, these hip/elbow issues are important, but first you have to have an accurate understanding of the issue to determine what you will live with in making breeding decisions.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I was going through some of the "antique" German Shepherd dog Reviews I am sending to Bethany and discovered an article in one of the late 70's issues , written by Gary Schnelle , who you may recognize as one of the early OFA orthopedic specialists who promoted the x-ray and evaluation scheme. Gary Schnelle actually "discovered" hip problems in the 1940's when x-ray technology became available http://www.belfield.com/pet_health_art5.php

He said many things among which is that hips are only one consideration . A dog with excellent hips and poor temperament is a worse choice then a dog with borderline hips and ideal temperament (paraphrased). He said that a dog with exellent hips being the only representative with this grade , the littermates, sire and dam being in the suspicious to frank dysplastic range is a worse choice (looks good on paper though!) than a dog with fair (which is not dysplastic but a rating of hips which will pass ofa cert) and suspicious (borderline) but with nothing beyond that in the "kin" . You have to look at pedigree depth , not the individual .
He also said there are more dogs euthanized for temperamental problems then need be for hips. The Reviews are interesting in a historical way because month by month you can see the issue of hips being tackled and x-raying being proposed as a useful tool in breeding selection.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GrammaD said:


> I like _concept_ of the breed value system and in my pie in the sky dream world we'd utilize PennHip in the process.
> 
> But can you even imagine breeders in the US submitting to this level of regulation? And what it would take to gear up PennHip to handle the volume?
> 
> I am not in the know enough to know whether the past decade + of ZW has reduced the incidence of HD- do you know?


No idea on the last question, but a lot of people in the US do use it. The dog I just sold has a ZW score (his own, not just the average of the parents) because I submitted his x-rays to the SV. I would like to send in my other dog but right now it's cost-prohibitive (getting *another* set of x-rays done plus the cost of the a-stamp which is like $130 plus being without his papers for another 3 months) so I'm watching the scores of his relatives and how they are producing.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

$$$$ *sigh* 

I really don't know how good breeders do it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah, I mean x-rays cost me about $120 either way, but OFA is $40 and then $5 to get the films returned. I don't have to send in any paperwork and I get my x-rays back. SV a-stamps are another $130 or something like that, I do NOT get any x-rays back, and I have to send in all my dog's papers and be without them for 2-3 months. I don't think either rating system is really comparable to PenHIP, so I do OFA.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

PennHip would run me $600 while OFA will be $160 for both hips and elbows. My regular vet can do OFAs quite well but I'd have to go to a different clinic for PennHip. A friend of mine, she breeds, pays over $500 for her OFAs! She likes to go to a specific vet with a good reputation for his skills. But if I were her I'd switch to Pennhip since the costs are close to the same.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, some of us have been trying to educate people on Dr. Schnelle's views for decades, but the new age experts have made hips more important than the dog. Thanks for the info!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would MUCH rather have a dog with fair/borderline hips and a GOOD temp than one with excellent hips and rotten temp 

When I got Dodge some were rather mortified that I was getting a dog out of a "Fair" sire..well Fair IS passing, (mom was good)

Dodge ended up going Fair, but so what He had an excellent temperament, bomb proof dog which was what I wanted in the end..

I , like anyone else want good hips on my dogs (and dogs I get puppies out of), but passing is passing, not hung up on the rating here either


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## SchutzenWoof (Dec 3, 2012)

Sorry folks, I didn't intend to start Hip Debate 2012 with my thread. But! It is all very informative to me, so thanks!!!!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think any thread will take some turns and we all learn from it...it's all good! 

I agree with you Diane, what good is an excellent hip rated dog if you can't do anything with it due to temperament?


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