# mal gsd cross? why?



## pets4life

K9 police man i talk with sometimes told me that most of the dogs here are mal gsd crosses? Some are pure gsd or mal but most are crosses between the 2 ?> Anyone know why? I looked it up and google some people call this KNPV lines? Strange. 

WAs wondering if anyone out there knows about this.


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## cliffson1

Because they often do superior work....no more no less....I have seen some nice Mal/GSD crosses in LE work.


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## pets4life

cliff are they often better than either breeds you think? for patrol?


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## cliffson1

Depends on the dog....a good GS is great dog, a good Mal is a great dog, and a good Mal/GS cross is a great dog....but you also have some in all three that are not good for LE. But the percentages for getting a good working Mal, Mal/GS cross is probably higher....that's why you see them....especially in KNPV work.


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## hunterisgreat

cliffson1 said:


> Depends on the dog....a good GS is great dog, a good Mal is a great dog, and a good Mal/GS cross is a great dog....but you also have some in all three that are not good for LE. But the percentages for getting a good working Mal, Mal/GS cross is probably higher....that's why you see them....especially in KNPV work.


Is this because of a blending of traits, or does the much greater difference in DNA (and yet still statistically so small a change lol) bring or do something unique?


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## Liberatore

In a nutshell, 'hybrid vigor' Both breeds are good in and of themselves, but as an end user dog, a cross will bring that hybrid vigor in to the dog that *can* make it better/healthier than either breed individually.

Ang


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## Chip Blasiole

The genetics that made the GSD a great working dog have largely been lost. Some people like Helmut Raiser have advocated cross breeding to the Malinois in an effort to save the breed. The show line people ruined the breed.


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## hunterisgreat

Liberatore said:


> In a nutshell, 'hybrid vigor' Both breeds are good in and of themselves, but as an end user dog, a cross will bring that hybrid vigor in to the dog that *can* make it better/healthier than either breed individually.
> 
> Ang


Yes but the much greater difference in DNA, as I understand, will make the offsprings traits be a crapshoot


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## hunterisgreat

Chip Blasiole said:


> The genetics that made the GSD a great working dog have largely been lost. Some people like Helmut Raiser have advocated cross breeding to the Malinois in an effort to save the breed. The show line people ruined the breed.


There are still really really nice genetics out there. Not lost, just rare and I don't believe appreciated well. The fact that the best sport dogs, best PPD/MWD/Police K9's, best service animals, and the house dogs are rarely related in any way is a major problem.


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## Chip Blasiole

There are a few really strong GSDs out there, but they are extremely hard to find and I would still argue that the original genetics that created the breed are lost. If you look at some of the photos in The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Pictures, by v. Stephanitz, you will see the dogs doing things that no modern GSD is capable of. One photo shows a GSD scrambling up a straight tree to a height of 13 feet. Von Stephanitz writes about testing a dog by charging the dog on horseback and the dog charges back toward him and jumps up and bites the horse on the neck so hard he had to beat the dog off with his riding crop.
While the protection sports at least try to select for working ability, I would argue that schH has resulting in selecting for some of the wrong genetics. All that is really needed is very high prey drive and big grips. There is no evaluation of environmental insecurites. The gun shot was taken out of the BH, so now a gunshy dog can pass. The sport is primarily an obedience sport, so dominance is selected away from. The bite scenarios are so totally predictable that the dog needs very little courage. The sport is more about the trainer than the dog. The SV is about money, not the breed. That is why the highline dogs generally are an embarassment to watch in the bitework. The helpers are coached on how to go easy on the dogs in the Seiger show. IMO, they are not nearly the working dogs thet were originally bred to be. Not to mention the health problems.


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## hunterisgreat

Chip Blasiole said:


> There are a few really strong GSDs out there, but they are extremely hard to find and I would still argue that the original genetics that created the breed are lost. If you look at some of the photos in The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Pictures, by v. Stephanitz, you will see the dogs doing things that no modern GSD is capable of. One photo shows a GSD scrambling up a straight tree to a height of 13 feet.


Haven't attempted a tree, but I have mailboxes, vehicles, trashcan's, handrails, bar stools, cat scratch trees... I'm sure my female is agile enough. I've been encouraged to make a "Katya on things Maddie can't get on" page lol



Chip Blasiole said:


> Von Stephanitz writes about testing a dog by charging the dog on horseback and the dog charges back toward him and jumps up and bites the horse on the neck so hard he had to beat the dog off with his riding crop.


There are many dogs that will charge and bite in these scenario. Most I would gather are doing it with far more prey influence than aggression. I believe in this case it should be aggression that is the dominate state of mind here. Still there, but rarely appreciated... or its there without the nerve structure to not be a complete a-hole in all aspects of its life.



Chip Blasiole said:


> While the protection sports at least try to select for working ability, I would argue that schH has resulting in selecting for some of the wrong genetics. All that is really needed is very high prey drive and big grips. There is no evaluation of environmental insecurites. The gun shot was taken out of the BH, so now a gunshy dog can pass. The sport is primarily an obedience sport, so dominance is selected away from. The bite scenarios are so totally predictable that the dog needs very little courage. The sport is more about the trainer than the dog. The SV is about money, not the breed. That is why the highline dogs generally are an embarassment to watch in the bitework. The helpers are coached on how to go easy on the dogs in the Seiger show. IMO, they are not nearly the working dogs thet were originally bred to be. Not to mention the health problems.


I agree entirely. I have been reprimanded for being to harsh in courage tests. I'm a 140lb 5'8" dude... and in most cases was nervous enough about doing trial helper work on unknown dogs or regional/national/world level dogs, that from a dogs perception I probably looked like a panicked deer that happened to run the wrong direction by accident lol. And when I see a dog get a pronounced rating and the judge talk about the power it displayed, it makes those comments or ratings in our work meaningless to me which sucks... like when you went to a 4 year school and worked your butt off, and are pigeon holed into the same payrate as someone who had a mail-order "pay enough and you pass" degree online (yes I know there are good degrees online, but there are also exceedingly bad ones). Or when kids go to a 4 year program for underwater basket weaving or a B.S. in Cocktail Conversation... it makes my degree in engineering hold less value.

This is why I switched one dog to another sport as his greatest asset is his ability to work in aggression and take whatever pressure a decoy can deliver, and as this is not really appreciated in IPO it makes our primary quality moot as he is not a light-speed maneuvering pop & flash kinda dog no matter how his accuracy is. As soon as the female is at the 3 she will likely also be moved to another sport


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## hunterisgreat

I regularly train with a K9 handler/decoy/trainer and we all know my male isn't the ideal IPO dog, but every K9/PPD/MWD person we come across says "man, he'd be an incredible street dog" including him... if a dog can be amazing at one and blah at the other, thats either a breeding issue, or regulations/judging issue (and likely both)


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## carmspack

and yet in other thread it was said byb gsd are out there doing police work -- do not know any dept that has the time , money, or manpower to go around testing, taking a chance --- easier to go to the broker who can have several selections and replacements if needed should one wash out. 

I don't know how that byb is good thread spawned and then days later another byb thread where people piped up and said byb bad , source of our problems, value is free or minimal. Head still spinning.

"
The genetics that made the GSD a great working dog have largely been lost. Some people like Helmut Raiser have advocated cross breeding to the Malinois in an effort to save the breed. The show line people ruined the breed. "

If you examine the canine genomic study you will find dogs that are closer in dna and intention than the malinois , if a cross has to be done , which is already included in the mixes that von Stephanitz brought together. 
Malinois has "wolf" , this other breed , like the GSD on the genomic study has molosser - the pastoral guard / herd/ hunt dogs which the Romans took on their empire making through Britain and continental Europe. 
they fought the wolf .


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> and yet in other thread it was said byb gsd are out there doing police work -- do not know any dept that has the time , money, or manpower to go around testing, taking a chance --- easier to go to the broker who can have several selections and replacements if needed should one wash out.
> 
> I don't know how that byb is good thread spawned and then days later another byb thread where people piped up and said byb bad , source of our problems, value is free or minimal. Head still spinning.
> 
> "
> The genetics that made the GSD a great working dog have largely been lost. Some people like Helmut Raiser have advocated cross breeding to the Malinois in an effort to save the breed. The show line people ruined the breed. "
> 
> If you examine the canine genomic study you will find dogs that are closer in dna and intention than the malinois , if a cross has to be done , which is already included in the mixes that von Stephanitz brought together.
> Malinois has "wolf" , this other breed , like the GSD on the genomic study has molosser - the pastoral guard / herd/ hunt dogs which the Romans took on their empire making through Britain and continental Europe.
> they fought the wolf .


Its been my experience that police dept's k9 training, handling, and genetic quality runs the full spectrum of superb to "I am horrified that dog is on the street"


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## Chip Blasiole

Some police k-9 departments have crappy dogs and trainers.
Not sure how your comments on genetics match mine. Traits that made the GSD a great working dog have been selected away from. The whole idea of having highlines and workinglines tells you a lot.


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## carmspack

Chip , I agree with you . Those traits have been selected away from.


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## hunterisgreat

Chip Blasiole said:


> Some police k-9 departments have crappy dogs and trainers.
> Not sure how your comments on genetics match mine. Traits that made the GSD a great working dog have been selected away from. The whole idea of having highlines and workinglines tells you a lot.


I agree with what you just said lol. They are selected away from. Some of the best sport dogs are ill suited for any other role. Same for the other roles of the GSD including the role of "looking like a GSD". I'm just saying, there are a small and shrinking set of folks who still have the right mindset and breed that way with what is still available. I don't think its lost entirely. Also, the DDR showed how dramatic the breed can be changed in short order through a rigid breeding program not motivated by individual interpretations/misunderstandings/financial gain. What has been bred away from *could* be fully expressed in a short time if so chosen for. I'm horrified about how to go about getting the dog I want years down the road b/c of how hard it will be and how everyone and every breeder believes their dog(s) are the ideal.


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## HuskyMal89

If you were to go to Europe and look for these original traits that GSD used to have, do you think you could find them in some European dogs? I have been researching the breed for a year now which isn't very long but in this short time I have come to realize that the popularity and the Americanization of the breed essentially killed it.


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## carmspack

Roman molosser . Look familiar?

von Stephanitz in his book did say nothing to be gained by adding malinois, so if a cross were to be done "to save the breed" I don't think this is the route to take.


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## hunterisgreat

HuskyMal89 said:


> If you were to go to Europe and look for these original traits that GSD used to have, do you think you could find them in some European dogs? I have been researching the breed for a year now which isn't very long but in this short time I have come to realize that the popularity and the Americanization of the breed essentially killed it.


if *I* sourced a dog from Europe I'd expect to get fleeced lol. They aren't stupid and theres plenty of exploiting wealthy Americans who believe "import" is synonymous with "quality". I don't think the dogs out of Europe are any better than those here in the US. Certainly the concept of "good GSD's are imported, end of story" is no longer true. Both mine are born on US soil, however both have imported parents, so I don't believe it is as though there is a long standing genetic divide between US sourced and imported dogs.

It is really two breeds now.. show and working, and it could be argued to be subdivided under that. Show and working lines are *very* different physically and mentally.


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## hunterisgreat

pets4life said:


> K9 police man i talk with sometimes told me that most of the dogs here are mal gsd crosses? Some are pure gsd or mal but most are crosses between the 2 ?> Anyone know why? I looked it up and google some people call this KNPV lines? Strange.
> 
> WAs wondering if anyone out there knows about this.


KNPV is a sport to assess potential police dog sources. Its not that it has specific lines per se, as its a "run what you brung" type of thing, but more that if I'm a KNPV handler and breed dogs, and my dogs consistently do well in my handling/training and in others, then my dogs are now KNPV lines lol. like "show" or "working" lines but specific to that sport


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## HuskyMal89

Hunter-that is kind of what I was getting at lol in a round about way. I also have a pup born here but with import parents. I agree with the notion that the breed is very much divided and can be divided further especially on the working side. Sounds as though to me anyway that the working German Shepherd and the Show Line German Shepherd need to be separate breeds all together. I think the sooner you can get two completely different and recognized breeds the sooner you can revert back to the traits that the GSD was originally bred for on a wide scale. I also think that if breeders bred to the original standard that the breed would be in much better shape. The responsibility does fall to us the human and over the last 75 years us the human have failed one of the best working dogs on this earth.


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## carmspack

My son is currently in Dresden and has been or will be going to Budapest . Before he went he asked if there was anything that I might want him to bring back. This morning I had a guest , old friend, who might do "Europe" and asked if there was anything that I wanted him to bring back. Answer to both was no. 

Seriously , I do think we have some very good genetics and breeders on this side of the ocean that I would look at first . If anything from abroad at the moment , it would more than likely be "old" type Swedish dog.


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## hunterisgreat

HuskyMal89 said:


> Hunter-that is kind of what I was getting at lol in a round about way. I also have a pup born here but with import parents. I agree with the notion that the breed is very much divided and can be divided further especially on the working side. Sounds as though to me anyway that the working German Shepherd and the Show Line German Shepherd need to be separate breeds all together. I think the sooner you can get two completely different and recognized breeds the sooner you can revert back to the traits that the GSD was originally bred for on a wide scale. I also think that if breeders bred to the original standard that the breed would be in much better shape. The responsibility does fall to us the human and over the last 75 years us the human have failed one of the best working dogs on this earth.


Well thats the crux.. the serious breeders on both sides think they are interpreting the breed standard properly... its not that they feel they are deviating for some justifiable reason.


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## HuskyMal89

I agree that we have some great dogs on this side of the ocean. I wasn't trying to disrespect any breeders that are on this side of the ocean lol. I know that interpreting a breed standard is all about perception and opinion but if you give me the breed standard and a list of traits that Max Von Stephanitz had intended the breed to have and made this gospel which it is supposed to be, how hard would it be to follow? If you took his vision of the German Shepherd and matched that against any dog I bet they wouldn't measure up fully to every trait the breed was intended to have. I feel like every time a breeder decides to breed for x or y or wants to specialize in a certain type they are selling every dog he/she has/breeds short. The GSD was supposed to be a working dog and have certain traits and the fact that probably 95%of today's dogs don't have at least some of them is a failure in my humble opinion. Separating working and show lines would help get new blood and ideas to the forefront and maybe restore the working shepherd to what it once was. Just one persons opinion that playing god and taking personality traits and physical traits out of something just because it doesn't suit you isn't right and shouldn't be tolerated. The original standard needs to be restored and followed.....


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## Catu

Recognized or not, it already happened.
RSV2000 .:. Zuchtlinien des Deutschen Schäferhundes unterscheiden sich genetisch


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## Chip Blasiole

Hunter,
You briefly mentioned the DDR GSD. I think today, that is another marketing pitch that is much more fluff than quality. Firstly, it is a misnomer to say there are still DDR GSDs since the country dissolved about 25 years ago. Also, my understanding is that, while they likely had some very strong dogs, most of what came to the US were not so great. They were probably overly defensive in an insecure way. Today the people selling and promoting so called DDR dogs, IMO rarely, if ever, are out there training them and assessing them to see if they are breed worthy. More likely, they pay a handler to title them. You can't tell if a working dog is breed worthy without training it to determine its strengths and shortcomings. They are popular because of nice bone/structure and pigment. I"m sure some of them are still decent dogs. Same is somewhat true of the Czech dogs. The old bloodlines where there was a lot of social aggression is all but gone, as many are crossed with West German lines to make them more sporty and more suitable as pets. 
You don't see this in the Malinois, such as in some of the Dutch and Belgian lines where some of the dogs are still socially aggressive, very dominant, are used for real work and are true working breeding stock. Many of those folks don't care, accept and are responsible for a dog that has been bite trained and will bite you simply because you are not part of its pack. In the US, that is considered a temperament fault and bred out. I am not saying there is anything wrong with strong working dogs that are social, but the trend away from hardness, dominance and social aggression is a dilution of working traits and has taken its toll on the GSD, which has largely become a pet or sport dog.
Catu,
What is the gist of the RSV2000? Is that the article where Raiser talks about the highline dogs walking like frogs and the breed loosing its suitability for police work?


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## hunterisgreat

Chip Blasiole said:


> Hunter,
> You briefly mentioned the DDR GSD. I think today, that is another marketing pitch that is much more fluff than quality. Firstly, it is a misnomer to say there are still DDR GSDs since the country dissolved about 25 years ago. Also, my understanding is that, while they likely had some very strong dogs, most of what came to the US were not so great. They were probably overly defensive in an insecure way. Today the people selling and promoting so called DDR dogs, IMO rarely, if ever, are out there training them and assessing them to see if they are breed worthy. More likely, they pay a handler to title them. You can't tell if a working dog is breed worthy without training it to determine its strengths and shortcomings. They are popular because of nice bone/structure and pigment. I"m sure some of them are still decent dogs. Same is somewhat true of the Czech dogs. The old bloodlines where there was a lot of social aggression is all but gone, as many are crossed with West German lines to make them more sporty and more suitable as pets.
> You don't see this in the Malinois, such as in some of the Dutch and Belgian lines where some of the dogs are still socially aggressive, very dominant, are used for real work and are true working breeding stock. Many of those folks don't care, accept and are responsible for a dog that has been bite trained and will bite you simply because you are not part of its pack. In the US, that is considered a temperament fault and bred out. I am not saying there is anything wrong with strong working dogs that are social, but the trend away from hardness, dominance and social aggression is a dilution of working traits and has taken its toll on the GSD, which has largely become a pet or sport dog.
> Catu,
> What is the gist of the RSV2000? Is that the article where Raiser talks about the highline dogs walking like frogs and the breed loosing its suitability for police work?


My pointing out DDR was *only* to illustrate how a motivated and systematic breeding program can rapidly change things. Likewise in Russia I'm sure you're aware of the experiment that domesticated foxes in something like 50 generations. At the same time the bred the most aggressive and have the polar opposite of docile and domesticated foxes.

I agree that social aggression and sharpness is not liked here, however I desire both qualities in my dogs. My male is very sharp, very socially aggressive. I've come to realize how rare that is and that depresses me. More concerning is many sport folks look at those traits with disdain. 

If you know of breeders producing exceptionally sharp, hard, aggressive dogs that aren't just unstable a-holes to handle, please share or PM


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## onyx'girl

hunterisgreat said:


> My pointing out DDR was *only* to illustrate how a motivated and systematic breeding program can rapidly change things. Likewise in Russia I'm sure you're aware of the experiment that domesticated foxes in something like 50 generations. At the same time the bred the most aggressive and have the polar opposite of docile and domesticated foxes.
> 
> I agree that social aggression and sharpness is not liked here, however I desire both qualities in my dogs. My male is very sharp, very socially aggressive. I've come to realize how rare that is and that depresses me. More concerning is many sport folks look at those traits with disdain.
> 
> *If you know of breeders producing exceptionally sharp, hard, aggressive dogs that aren't just unstable a-holes to handle, please share or PM *


I'd like to know too!


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## Chip Blasiole

While I can appreciate sharpness to a degree, I think more often than not, it carries with it a degree of insecurity. Not to the degree that the dog can't do well in real man work, but might indicate a greater likelihood of the dog shutting down under really intense pressure. 
I also think people often mistake overdefensiveness with social aggression. Over defensiveness is common and social aggression is rare because it is being bred out. A socially aggressive dog doesn't need to display a lot of defensive barking and posturing. It might simply just bite you. 
Probably your best bet is to go with a Malinois or Dutch Shepherd.


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## carmspack

on many occasions I have said that the splits within the breed have basically satisfied the definition of a distinct breed , if you were to apply to an FCI kennel club to create a registry , new breed name. Look back into a pedigree until you find a common name or point of departure. I think Canto Wienerau and the plans of the Martin brothers ushered in this development. 
If you look at the DDR that was not so much a function of systemic breeding changes as it was of being inhibited , being frozen in time , an un-change , while the dog-world on the other side of the border got caught up in the ability to be commercial.


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## Chip Blasiole

I definitely agree that the Martin brothers sold out the breed with the promotion of the black and red cookie cutter dogs, selling them for huge sums of money to unsuspecting, wealthy customers.
I don't see any value in registries. Just look at the AKC. Some of the best working dogs are unregistered Malinois and Dutch Shepherds from Holland.


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## carmspack

agree with Chip again. 
A gsd with social aggression is very secure at the core and very willfull and determined . They are also discriminating. Master/family from "other". That is the aloof , reserved aspect of the breed . They can go through life without reacting , without making an embarrassment or spectacle of themselves - yet be solid and ready and tenacious at work.


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## carmspack

Chip do read "Bred for Perfection" by Margaret Derry Bred for Perfection: Shorthorn Cattle, Collies, and Arabian Horses since 1800: Amazon.ca: Margaret E. Derry: Books , a U of Toronto professor and your opinion on big "public" registries will decrease even more.
There is this thought that prior to the kennel clubs , using dogs as our sample, that people didn't know what or who or how the dogs they had came to be. Yet you can go back to Roman times and see very distinct types with distinct work applications -- lots and lots of variations on stock / herding dogs . The dogs that were pulled together had distinct regional types determined by use . Individual end-users, the shepherd , person , not the dog , would select for a type that suited his situation . And they kept an eye on each others dogs and made selections based on ability.


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## Chip Blasiole

Sounds like an interesting read and makes sense to me. Probably not so much these days, but the Dutch Malinois breeders would cross breed with pitbulls and Great Danes to add certain traits. I am pretty sure there are some Dutch GSD breeders who add Malinois blood to their breedings, but don't make it public so they can get FCI papers and then buyers can get AKC papers.


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## HuskyMal89

I am late to the party I guess haha . I just feel like the only way to usher in world wide change in either the working lines or the show lines is to go through registries world wide because the common man and at least some breeders put so much stock into them. I myself acquire a dog because of what it can do and it's working ability not because of a piece of paper lol. I guess I don't understand that if this line of thought of "two breeds within a breed" has existed for so long why hasn't anything been done on a wide scale to affect change within the breed? I know you can breed back traits in dogs just like you can breed them out....takes longer sometimes but it can done. Everyone is gonna have an opinion on wether or not a dog should have this or that trait but, if you cannot follow a breed standard and breed for what the dog is SUPPOSED to be then I don't see how you are bettering the breed?? I just feel like and agree with chip and Carmen that the last fifty years the breed standard got thrown out so certain people could line their pockets....gotta love good old American know how hahaha. Thank you chip and Carmen for sharing your thoughts...I am but a novice in this breed and like reading your pots and hearing your insights!


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## Catu

Chip Blasiole said:


> Catu,
> What is the gist of the RSV2000? Is that the article where Raiser talks about the highline dogs walking like frogs and the breed loosing its suitability for police work?


Mmmmmm... nop
Perhaps if you bother to open the link you'll see what I'm talking about.
The "gist" is, the populations are already different enough, the rest is politics.


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## Chip Blasiole

The first time I opened the link it was in German. The highline GSD, American showlines, white GSDs are GSDs in appearance only.


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## Guardyan

> The highline GSD, American showlines, white GSDs are GSDs in appearance only.


Wow. Really? Every single one of them? Nice blanket statement dude.


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## HuskyMal89

In context of the original GSD and what Max Von Stephanitz intended the breed to be Chip is right in my opinion.


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## Chip Blasiole

Guardyan,
I'm sure there are a few exceptions to my statement, but those exceptions are not likely to be of breeding value. That doesn't mean all the types of GSDs I mentioned are total crap. They just are not capable of real police/military work. They might be great pets and bring their owners much happiness, but are not true working dogs.


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## Guardyan

Respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with your opinion.


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## Chip Blasiole

Since you so strongly disagree, can you elaborate as to why? I think part of the breed's decline is fancier's denial of poor breeding practices, lack of knowledge of what traits are required, and overpopularity, which leads to decline. 
European and American showline breeders are selecting for physical traits over drive and other "mental" attributes. White GSD breeders are selecting primarily for color, so that limits what they can select for in working traits. Others tend to breed because the dog has AKC papers, which are worthless. I also think the workingline breeders often miss the mark by not testing/evaluating their breeding prospects beyond titles.
Or do you simply not like what I am saying.


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## Galathiel

Chip Blasiole said:


> Guardyan,
> I'm sure there are a few exceptions to my statement, but those exceptions are not likely to be of breeding value. That doesn't mean all the types of GSDs I mentioned are total crap. They just are not capable of real police/military work. They might be great pets and bring their owners much happiness, but are not true working dogs.


I don't think police/military work was the only 'true' venue that GSDs are supposed to shine in. I'm thinking they were a utility breed, able to do more than just ... that. Way too narrow a niche to try to pigeonhole them into, and not the only way (or even best way) to assess an individual dog. By and large, the GSDs today are going into pet homes. They need to be a bit more balanced than just able to do that type of job. There are all kinds of work .. not just the one you tout.


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## Guardyan

I'm at a seminar today, so I don't have a lot of time for discussion. But in quick summary, I completely disagree with the following ideas:

1. "The highline GSD, American showlines, white GSDs are GSDs in appearance only."

2. " They just are not capable of real police/military work."

I would even disagree with:

3. " European and American showline breeders are selecting for physical traits over drive and other "mental" attributes."

In regard to #1, I have shared my life with some exceptional dogs - dogs with heart, strong nerve, real protection, balanced, incredible temperaments. Dogs capable of herding, tracking, you name it. They were absolutely 100% German Shepherd Dogs. 

In regard to #2, this statement is simply untrue. I know of German showlines being used for police work. 

In regard to #3, yes, there are several breeders who seem to care more about structure than temperament. However, there are breeders who strive to produce the total dog.


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## Chip Blasiole

Galathiel,
The breed was developd to be a herding dog and with the industrial age and end of the pastoral age, v. Stephanitz marketed and bred the dog primarily for military work, police work and as home guardians. They were used to hunt small prey and track larger animals for hunters. A lot of the things dogs used to do for people have been replaced by modern means. That doesn't leave a lot of other real work for them to do. Especially considering the GSD is one of the protection breeds. Search and rescue and human/ancient remains detection are other forms of modern work. Even dogs capable of this type of work need to be selectively bred. So IMO, their true venue is as a protection breed used for police and military work and as a result of becoming popular pets, the working traits have be diluted or lost. Just look at the topics posted here. Being a pet therapy dog is a positive thing, but it doesn't require a working dog. 
Guardyan,
How did you test the dogs you had that you claim had heart, strong nerve, real protection, etc. The general public thinks all GSDs are protective and will protect their master and I'm willing to bet the majority won't and can be run off.
I said there are exceptions, but just because a German showline dog is being used for police work, it doesn't mean the dog is a good police dog. Most police and military departments have stopped using GSDs altogether due to the decline of the breed.
Finally, have you ever watched any video of the German highline dogs doing bitework at the Seiger Show? The majority are an embarassment to the breed.


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## hunterisgreat

And keep in mind strong nerve from your perspective may not be strong nerve from others. And even more so, if it isn't consistently strong from pedigree to progeny, it is of no use... It can't be sustained

Whatever is bred towards, all other traits are left to chaos, and slowly return there. This is why out of the 6 or so white shepherds I've tried to work, not one had enough raw material to even consider attempting a working title of any kind. All were also varying degrees of nervy defensive scared dogs, or as many owners say "he is very fearless and protective!"


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## Guardyan

We can devise various testing methods for our dogs, but I would contend it's often the unplanned scenario that reveals the most about the true temperament of a dog. Bear with me while I share a little story to elucidate my point. When I was younger, my sister and I were playing in an irrigation ditch in the back pasture. My father used to raise buffalo and at one point, our Giant Schnauzer decided the bull buffalo had gotten to close. She shot out like a rocket and nailed him right on the nose, driving him into the back of the pasture. Now that is a dog with real heart and courage.

In terms of our current dogs, we are involved with a variety of performance activities. Each of these activities provides a variety of unplanned opportunities to witness how our dogs respond to novel challenges, e.g. a herd of obstinate rams, hectic trial environments, etc. 

Yes, I have attended Sieger Shows and watched the bitework. There are dogs that are an embarrassment and there are dogs that are incredible.


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## hunterisgreat

Guardyan said:


> We can devise various testing methods for our dogs, but I would contend it's often the unplanned scenario that reveals the most about the true temperament of a dog. Bear with me while I share a little story to elucidate my point. When I was younger, my sister and I were playing in an irrigation ditch in the back pasture. My father used to raise buffalo and at one point, our Giant Schnauzer decided the bull buffalo had gotten to close. She shot out like a rocket and nailed him right on the nose, driving him into the back of the pasture. Now that is a dog with real heart and courage.
> 
> In terms of our current dogs, we are involved with a variety of performance activities. Each of these activities provides a variety of unplanned opportunities to witness how our dogs respond to novel challenges, e.g. a herd of obstinate rams, hectic trial environments, etc.
> 
> Yes, I have attended Sieger Shows and watched the bitework. There are dogs that are an embarrassment and there are dogs that are incredible.


Of course real world reveals the real dog. But I don't wait for real world to find my dog can not perform. The 80% confidence assessment in controlled scenerios reduces the risk dramatically that the dog will remain sound and reliable in real scenerios.

We don't buy a gun and go to war without target practice first

Also why PSA has surprise exercises at trial day. You cannot plan and condition a dog for them. You must *teach* the dog rather than pattern train


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## Chip Blasiole

Giant Schnauzers can be great dogs. Again, finding a really good dog of most breeds is becoming more difficult.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Guardyan said:


> Respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with your opinion.


Thats why the breed is where it is if 99% aren't more then pet quality which they arent then whats the point in defending them?

Thats great your dog challenged and ran some stock that does show strength, now if I threw on a Bite Suit and robe and ran at your dog what would she do? Thats why you thoroughly test a dog in multiple situations and scenarios before you say the dog is strong and has nerve etc.

The very idea that we need to water down GSDs because more people use them as pets pretty much says it all. They were not meant to be pets they were meant to work even as a family dog they were there to fulfill a purpose.

On the topic of sharpness and social aggression. Was recently discussing this topic on another forum with Mike from LHK (Breeds and brokers Dutchies and Mals to LEO and Mil). He said that generally dogs he owned and sold that were not trustworthy in social situations tended to always be somewhat weaker then the social dogs (aloof is included in this category). So I agree with Chip in that socially unreliable dogs are not desirable.
Yet Hunter I believe you have stated that your male is very reliable and only responds to threatening behavior/body language which is desirable imo and not what Im talking about. 

I think in the end Im probably going to end up on the Mal / Dutchy train which is too bad since I have always loved GSDs.


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## cliffson1

The German Shepherd is more of a pet dog today than working dog. That's indisputable. I consider SAR, and seeing-eye work, and narcotic work, as work and they don't require biting. Still, you see less and less of the breed as these vocations are/have moved to other breeds. Too many people take the exception these days to paint a picture of good health in the breed. A lot of people today breed for specific things that were not critical to a utility dog. But if you allow exceptions or low percentages to validate your opinion, then everyone is right in this discussion. But I'll let you in on a dirty secret; in the quest to breed for likes over utility, the breed has not only lost ground as working dog(both bite and non bite work so as to include all), but the breed has lost it's standing as a pet. 
You say how do you say that? Talk to vets! Who happen to see the highest percent of all breeds away from home. They will constantly tell you the well behaved pet GS is NOT the norm......they see a lot of issues with GS in extreme shyness, and inappropriate aggression; certainly not the top requisites for pets.
Hey, but I am sure they don't know as much as many on this forum....lol


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## carmspack

dragging a post I made on "byb" over here because it is on point to the discussion

"
thanks Cliff . I hope to get a next generation if I can get some of her brothers semen put on ice. Six mile tracks are a piece of cake for him. Which brings me to the value of the DDR lines -- not all and not any , or at least anymore since all things in working need to be deliberately conserved. 
Here is a quote from Josef Mravik eurosport site "The dogs were heavy, strong boned and had huge heads. They were slower but powerful. Obedience was a necessary evil. The dogs never looked at the handler with dancing footsteps. They did obedience because they had to but they were always watching for a bad guy.
For so many generations in the Eastern Block the dogs were made for war. There was no other motivation. The dogs must function on their own. They had to be able to work independently of the handler. They were expected to think for themselves in many situations. They were titled out in the forest, not in a stadium. The ZVV/SVV title is a "real-life" situation title.
Until 1989 there were no separate show and working lines. All German Shepherd Dogs were working dogs. When the border opened the German influence began and the breed began to be separated.
West Germans have always placed a lot of influence on Schutzhund. The dogs performed in a stadium not a train station. The extreme high nerves of the West German dogs can be attributed to the use of the dogs in sport. The dogs must not think for themselves. Their entire goal needs to be to please and work for the handlers. This is comparing apples to oranges
The traits that the Eastern block needed in the dog was considered stubborn or too independent and the West German dogs were considered nervous or needy.
The East German (DDR) dogs and Czech dogs were interbred successfully because they were breeding for the same characteristics. Prior to 1989 the show line dog did not exist in Cechkoslovakia. There was one GSD and they worked or they were not bred. The dogs still were required to get a show rating and a black or sable dog could win just as easily as a black and tan dog.
Tremendous emphasis was/is put on the tracking ability of the dog. The dogs were used in rugged conditions in the snow and ice to find criminals hiding in the mountains. The dogs and handlers were out for days at a time tracking the smugglers. Dogs were not sold. Their work was essential to the survival and economy of the country. The dogs were not social to people outside their family unit. " then ends the piece by saying that ". So much of the old blood that made up the border patrol dogs has vanished. "

Curious how things have changed from "The dogs were heavy, strong boned and had huge heads. They were slower but powerful. Obedience was a necessary evil. The dogs never looked at the handler with dancing footsteps. They did obedience because they had to but they were always watching for a bad guy" to the demand for the North American "taste" for openly friendly , pet , or prancy schutzhund dog has lead to "Many old school breeders believe that this is leading to the demise of the true Police and Border Patrol dogs"

Trends were demand for black and tan, black and red. If you had a sable good luck to you. Then the DDR dogs were the bright shiny object and people would want one , now it is the Czech dog . People phoning for pet puppies wanting Czech dogs without knowing why. They have no experience , no understanding -- and the dogs keep changing to meet the market . 
__________________


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## pets4life

Chip Blasiole said:


> Giant Schnauzers can be great dogs. Again, finding a really good dog of most breeds is becoming more difficult.



I have never seen a giant schnauzer doing muzzle work, or hidden sleeve or good in suit work like a shep or mal do you have any videos? I have never heard of them being used as patrol dogs in recent times either. I only saw one bite a sleeve. WL Gsds and mals are the only dogs i see taking a lot of pressure being kicked or hit hard and still not phased at all and keep fighting like a monster. Never seen another breed take that kind of pressure ever in person or video. Also the ones that play dirty tricks on decoys like will try to avoid the suit and get his hands or when a decoy is on the ground with one watching the decoys face becomes really important. Other breeds dont really get that far that i have seen. They stay with tugs and go as far as sleeve sometimes but soon as real pressure and real hits start hitting them thy go into avoidence.


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## cliffson1

I have seen quite a few awesome GIant Schnausers that totally excel at sport and police work over the years.


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## Chip Blasiole

Pets4life (which is quite revealing), one of the most intense dogs I have ever seen was a Giant Schauzer. I heard a story of one coming out of anesthesia, and as soon as it was alert enough, it wanted to bite. This was not a fearful dog, but a strong dog that pet owners don't want to deal with, hence the GSD becomes a lowly pet breed for the most part.


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## pets4life

yeah most of the giants i see are the same 


it would be really nice to see a strong one in action


a lot of dogs try to bite but it is obv they will just bite and back off they are not biting because they want to like some dogs are clearly doing it for the fight some are doing it to say dont touch me or f off. But even a bite would be enough as if anyones been bitten by even a smaller dog it kills lol you go into shock pretty fast. Not even talking full mouth bite or anything.


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## Catu

carmspack said:


> People phoning for pet puppies wanting Czech dogs without knowing why.


Because everyone knows black and reds with sloped backs have hip dysplasia (tongue-in-cheek)


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## ugavet2012

cliffson1 said:


> You say how do you say that? Talk to vets! Who happen to see the highest percent of all breeds away from home. They will constantly tell you the well behaved pet GS is NOT the norm......they see a lot of issues with GS in extreme shyness, and inappropriate aggression; certainly not the top requisites for pets.
> Hey, but I am sure they don't know as much as many on this forum....lol


Certainly not the norm. After my technicians weigh the patient and put it and the owner in a room, I review their chart. If I see breed listed as "German shephard" (and that's not a typo that's how the computer program spells it), my immediate first question to my tech is "do I need a muzzle?" 
I hate being that way and its sad, but reality. So many people come on here all upset because their vet had breed bias and muzzled their dog but the truth is that a high percentage are fear biters (and I've had a few that were just plain totally untrained with clueless owners), and this is too large of a breed to take a chance of a bite from a dog that looks even sort of nervous. I'm no Angelina Jolie but I still prefer my face the way it is and I need my hands to do my job. Looking at the number of threads started about people having aggression and/or fear problems, anybody should be able to see why some vets muzzle this breed automatically. I also think all dogs should be trained to be ok with a muzzle, or the alternative, which in my house is a rule I call "you deal with what I do to you or put on you end of story." 

But you're right, what do I know.....


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## cliffson1

@ugavet.....if I had to believe what you say about the breed and somebody who has limited knowledge and exposure to the breed.....really not a hard decision. 
But you are looking at this from a professional and practical perspective....others what they want it to be. The breed is not in the shape it ought to be and people who are practioners with this breed, ( besides show, sport, and pet) realize it.


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## wildo

Breed's in bad shape, or breed owners are in bad shape? My puppy mill GSD was just at the vet and was highly praised for her very good, calm behavior. I was told that even though medication for her current issue is _extremely_ expensive "she is clearly worth it since she's such a well behaved dog who is so bonded to you." Vet's words, not mine. It's not just "good breeding" that makes a GSD good. There's a responsibility on the owner to train/socialize as well.

There's so many threads on this forum about the atrocious state of the breed. Perhaps if people put just a little effort into training and socializing their dogs, the breed wouldn't be in such a bad state. 

Or maybe the breeders who breed over the top prey monsters that have to be cattle prodded into submission can step up and take a little responsibility. Oh wait, that's right- the German Shepherd isn't for pansy owners not willing to correct the **** out of their dogs, I forgot...


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## Jax08

cliffson1 said:


> I have seen quite a few awesome GIant Schnausers that totally excel at sport and police work over the years.


My trainer has one. She's an awesome working dog!


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## KristiM

Mal x GSD? Why not? If it produces a dog that is good for the job at hand why wouldn't you cross breeds? In my mind these would have the potential to be awesome dogs. I would certainly be interested in the mix if I KNEW both dogs were solid, I can absolutely see it producing a dog superior to both breeds.


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## cliffson1

I think a vet would have a better handle on the breed than individuals that own one or two dogs.....or am I being irrational? Nah, I know what makes sense whether it is owner or breeder, there are far too many unbalanced GS, individual dogs notwithstanding.
@Kristi.....a good dog is where you find it when it comes to functionality..


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## pets4life

cliff my vet has been a vet for 30 years and he told me gsd has bitten him more than any other dog and also caused the most damage in the bites by far lol He loves them also but he is very careful. He said when he gets bitten by one there is always stiches involved. He finds dobies and other breeds much easier to work with.


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## KristiM

I've gotten the impression that even good representatives of the breed aren't exactly ***** cats to deal with at the vet. I recently had to take my dog to a specialist centre and found out that they deal with a lot of the local police k9's. I was told by a few of the vets and several of the techs that all of the police dogs they treat act exactly like my dog does (which is to try to kill anyone who restrains and examines him.) I'm not talking low budget second rate K-9 units here either. They even had a "police dog protocol" whitch they used with my dog. It was awesome for me to be able to deal with vets and staff that knew exactly how to deal with my dog! And instead of getting the feeling that they all thought I was a moron that didn't properly train and socialize my dog I got several compliments on my ability to handle him.


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## ugavet2012

KristiM said:


> I've gotten the impression that even good representatives of the breed aren't exactly ***** cats to deal with at the vet. I recently had to take my dog to a specialist centre and found out that they deal with a lot of the local police k9's. I was told by a few of the vets and several of the techs that all of the police dogs they treat act exactly like my dog does (which is to try to kill anyone who restrains and examines him.) I'm not talking low budget second rate K-9 units here either. They even had a "police dog protocol" whitch they used with my dog. It was awesome for me to be able to deal with vets and staff that knew exactly how to deal with my dog! And instead of getting the feeling that they all thought I was a moron that didn't properly train and socialize my dog I got several compliments on my ability to handle him.


But I have always disagreed that a dog that _needs_ extra special handling techniques for simple stuff so as not to harm someone is a "good representative." Most of the dogs from the high security prison here that we examine are fine with being handled. Many are bite trained. They are retired into normal pet homes and do fine. I know a semi local girl with a very nice successful PSA/schutzhund dog who is FABULOUS for his exams and other things. He walks into the building like he owns the place, never shows aggression to anyone or other pet in the lobby, obeys his owners obedience commands when needed, and stands politely for exams. He is never super friendly to me but will give me a wag or 2 of his tail and tolerates me, he is exactly what I think of when I think aloof. He doesn't care that I am there as I'm no real threat, and is clearly bonded to his owner. I don't mean this as anything at all specific towards you or your dog, but I would never pay for or seek out a dog with the temperament you describe. It's a liability, the same as a fear biter, no thanks.


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## KristiM

ugavet2012 said:


> But I have always disagreed that a dog that _needs_ extra special handling techniques for simple stuff so as not to harm someone is a "good representative." Most of the dogs from the high security prison here that we examine are fine with being handled. Many are bite trained. They are retired into normal pet homes and do fine. I know a semi local girl with a very nice successful PSA/schutzhund dog who is FABULOUS for his exams and other things. He walks into the building like he owns the place, never shows aggression to anyone or other pet in the lobby, obeys his owners obedience commands when needed, and stands politely for exams. He is never super friendly to me but will give me a wag or 2 of his tail and tolerates me, he is exactly what I think of when I think aloof. He doesn't care that I am there as I'm no real threat, and is clearly bonded to his owner. I don't mean this as anything at all specific towards you or your dog, but I would never pay for or seek out a dog with the temperament you describe. It's a liability, the same as a fear biter, no thanks.


LOL, trust me I would never again seek out a dog with this kind of temperament either!!! I just found it interesting that the vets and all of the staff said that every police dog they deal with, is the exact same way. He's not a hide in the corner fear biter (as I'm sure none of the police dogs are) he's actually quite friendly until he is restrained. I don't think that it's all that realistic to expect a dominant, aggressive dog to be pinned down, molested and have painful things done to him without getting nasty about it. I would think in a dog's mind, this would absolutely be a threat. Would it not?


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## ugavet2012

KristiM said:


> LOL, trust me I would never again seek out a dog with this kind of temperament either!!! I just found it interesting that the vets and all of the staff said that every police dog they deal with, is the exact same way. He's not a hide in the corner fear biter (as I'm sure none of the police dogs are) he's actually quite friendly until he is restrained. I don't think that it's all that realistic to expect a dominant, aggressive dog to be pinned down, molested and have painful things done to him without getting nasty about it. I would think in a dog's mind, this would absolutely be a threat. Would it not?


Ignoring the fact the behaviorist in me Hates the word dominant as a general adjective to describe a dog, especially since its so misused, your words previously were "restrained and examined." Neither of these things should be a problem for a stable animal of any breed. Some dogs don't like being so closely restrained in the form of tight hugs/headlock type things and do fine with a less is more type restraint and that is reasonable to me as well. But a dog that has to be "pinned down" to do anything to is NOT stable to me in the first place. Even my own dogs would fight me if I pinned them down. And painful things is subjective, I would need to know your definition. Blood draws, placing catheters, intramuscular injections, taking temps, nail trims, anal gland expressions, fine needle aspirates, etc are all routine things and no I don't believe they are that painful. I can draw blood, express anal glands, trim nails, and give IM injections to all my own dogs without restraint at all. I would consider something like having to rip a torn toenail off the rest of the way to be painful, and even the GSD I spoke of above might protest for a second or 2, but I still couldn't imagine him throwing himself around, snarling, foaming at the mouth, trying to attack me over it. Growling, slight snarl, attempting to nip at my hand might be reasonable and justified. Then it would be over with and he would go back to seeing me as "just there." And I do know this to be true as I have done some painful things to him. He forgets about it and moves on......can't you tell I just love him??? LOL


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## Catu

KristiM said:


> LOL, trust me I would never again seek out a dog with this kind of temperament either!!! I just found it interesting that the vets and all of the staff said that every police dog they deal with, is the exact same way. He's not a hide in the corner fear biter (as I'm sure none of the police dogs are) he's actually quite friendly until he is restrained. I don't think that it's all that realistic to expect a dominant, aggressive dog to be pinned down, molested and have painful things done to him without getting nasty about it. I would think in a dog's mind, this would absolutely be a threat. Would it not?


But don't forget that there is a lot of learning involved here, beyond the temperament of the dog. How a pup is handled on his first vaccines WILL have an impact on how he reacts to the vet as an adult.

I'm the first to advocate the primordial importance of genetics, but we still have to look at the whole picture. If a police dog sees a threat on a routine vet exam, but is overall stable on other, even more stressful, situations, there is a huge possibility it's a learned behavior.

ETA: Another thing also is how the owner and the staff reacts to the dogs. If every time they prepare themselves to deal with a wolverine... the dog will behave like a wolverine. I'm a vet technician and that is quite common to see.


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## onyx'girl

wildo said:


> Breed's in bad shape, or breed owners are in bad shape? My puppy mill GSD was just at the vet and was highly praised for her very good, calm behavior. I was told that even though medication for her current issue is _extremely_ expensive "she is clearly worth it since she's such a well behaved dog who is so bonded to you." Vet's words, not mine. It's not just "good breeding" that makes a GSD good. There's a responsibility on the owner to train/socialize as well.
> 
> There's so many threads on this forum about the atrocious state of the breed. Perhaps* if people put just a little effort into training and socializing their dogs, the breed wouldn't be in such a bad state.
> *
> Or maybe the breeders who breed over the top prey monsters that have to be cattle prodded into submission can step up and take a little responsibility. Oh wait, that's right- the German Shepherd isn't for pansy owners not willing to correct the **** out of their dogs, I forgot...


I don't know, there are dogs that need management...and dogs with issues are limited in what they can do. Training out the genetics is not possible.
As far as the cattle prod comment, I don't think it is a breeders fault for what some trainers do to dogs, regardless of the breed.


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## KristiM

I don't know any more than what they told me...so can't really elaborate. My own dog is a bad example and has some very painful health problems that generally have turned him into a dink. No idea what he would be like as a pain free dog...I know if I was in pain all the time I would probably be pretty over the top too. My other GSD is pretty much exactly how you describe.... completely aloof and in my mind the absolute ideal dog. Never had any issues at the vet or anywhere else and he did schutzhund as well for the first 3 years of his life. Honestly in this situation I'm not sure what would be considered "correct." But doubt that all of the police dogs they see are crap dogs...maybe they were just telling me that to make me feel better LOL.


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## Merciel

wildo said:


> It's not just "good breeding" that makes a GSD good. There's a responsibility on the owner to train/socialize as well.
> 
> There's so many threads on this forum about the atrocious state of the breed. Perhaps if people put just a little effort into training and socializing their dogs, the breed wouldn't be in such a bad state.


I agree with the first part. There _is_ a responsibility on the owner. And it's true that in a fair number of threads you can read between the lines to see that the problem is most likely not with the dog.

As to the second, though... I'm _pretty_ sure lack of effort put into his training and socialization is not why Pongu is a self-mutilating, fear-raddled, OCD nutjob. And I'm pretty sure it's not why my friend's GSD (who once upon a time was born in a puppy mill) was diagnosed with hip dysplasia and cardiomyopathy earlier this week, ending her agility career at 4.

The genetics do matter. They matter a lot.


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## wildo

Yep- I have no doubt that the genetics matter a lot. But I do doubt that there are _more_ genetically unstable GSDs out there than not. If that's actually true- then the breed IS in a bad state. I just don't believe that that's true.


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## ugavet2012

KristiM said:


> I don't know any more than what they told me...so can't really elaborate. My own dog is a bad example and has some very painful health problems that generally have turned him into a dink. No idea what he would be like as a pain free dog...I know if I was in pain all the time I would probably be pretty over the top too. My other GSD is pretty much exactly how you describe.... completely aloof and in my mind the absolute ideal dog. Never had any issues at the vet or anywhere else and he did schutzhund as well for the first 3 years of his life. Honestly in this situation I'm not sure what would be considered "correct." But doubt that all of the police dogs they see are crap dogs...maybe they were just telling me that to make me feel better LOL.


I think it's reasonable to be grumpy if painful all the time, however I still think your dog is taking it too far and being a drama queen from what you're describing......I see lots of painful dogs and most don't act like that 

I didn't mean to imply nor did I think that all the police dogs you're talking about are crappy at all, just I don't believe they are GOOD representatives of the breed (unless its a learned behavior or lack of training/conditioning to be touched/handled). I'm sure there are lots of successful dual purpose dogs out there who are not what a GSD should be.......like has been said before, the ability to be trained as a "police dog" is not the be all end all of what makes a good GSD.


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## KristiM

The thing that interests me most about a GSD mal mix is the possibility of greater health and longevity. (Along with more athleticism.) I know there are nice GSDs out there....temperament isn't the reason I'm not getting another GSD for my next dog...it's the health that really turns me off. Malinois generally do have greater vitality and a much longer working life. (Sure there are exceptions to this, but they are just that - exceptions)


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## KristiM

ugavet2012 said:


> I think it's reasonable to be grumpy if painful all the time, however I still think your dog is taking it too far and being a drama queen from what you're describing......I see lots of painful dogs and most don't act like that
> 
> I didn't mean to imply nor did I think that all the police dogs you're talking about are crappy at all, just I don't believe they are GOOD representatives of the breed (unless its a learned behavior or lack of training/conditioning to be touched/handled). I'm sure there are lots of successful dual purpose dogs out there who are not what a GSD should be.......like has been said before, the ability to be trained as a "police dog" is not the be all end all of what makes a good GSD.


Impossible to explain my dogs temperament over the Internet....he is what he is. Not my ideal dog, but whatever, I try hard to love him anyways. So if working dogs aren't what the breed is supposed to be....than what is the breed supposed to be? Good pets that don't exhibit aggression even when some stranger inflicts a great deal of pain on them? Gotta be honest, not really what I think of when I think of a GSD. I expect aggression (within reason) to be part of the breed. I consider my other dog to be one of the mot stable dogs I've met, but I'm quite certain that if pushed by a stranger he would absolutely push back. He doesn't know who is a vet and who isn't, he's a dog. My late Aussie on the other hand would never push back, and I would equally expect that from that breed. Both IMO have there positives and negatives.


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## ugavet2012

KristiM said:


> Impossible to explain my dogs temperament over the Internet....he is what he is. Not my ideal dog, but whatever, I try hard to love him anyways. So if working dogs aren't what the breed is supposed to be....than what is the breed supposed to be? Good pets that don't exhibit aggression even when some stranger inflicts a great deal of pain on them? Gotta be honest, not really what I think of when I think of a GSD. I expect aggression (within reason) to be part of the breed. I consider my other dog to be one of the mot stable dogs I've met, but I'm quite certain that if pushed by a stranger he would absolutely push back. He doesn't know who is a vet and who isn't, he's a dog. My late Aussie on the other hand would never push back, and I would equally expect that from that breed. Both IMO have there positives and negatives.


I do not want to sound like a jerk at all, but I don't think you're following what I'm saying. It is not black and white. I never said "working dogs" aren't what the breeds supposed to be nor did I say they shouldn't react if someone "inflicts a great deal of pain on them." Routine exams, procedures, and reasonable restraint do not inflict a great deal of pain! You ask anyone who has spent a good deal of time around police dogs and you'll find there are plenty of dogs working in the real world who do not necessarily do their job well. Two of my dogs are from a well known popular working dog kennel and he will tell you that of two of his studs who worked very well, one produces dogs that are hard to handle and mostly meant to work and one produces more balanced dogs who would work or do sport. The second would be my ideal....and why not?


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## ugavet2012

Just wanted to say I feel like I was dissing your dog, and I don't want you to think that. I know you love him and you are a good owner. I can only go by what you post and I understand it can be hard to describe.
The whole point of my entire story was I don't think the behavior is normal, common, ok, or excusable because a few working dogs needed to be handled the same way. I am SO biased because I have to deal with this crap daily and the incidence would decrease if some pet owners would just do minimal training socializing and conditioning to handling & restraint. I work constantly with my dogs so that other people can safely handle them even though I am their vet.


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## KristiM

I appreciate that. Believe me I have worked on it with him since the day I brought him home....like I said, I have another GSD who is a perfect gentleman at the vet. It's not a lack of socialization or training on my part, he is an over the top dog in every way and has a low threshold. He is absolutely not what I think is ideal. I just found it interesting that the specialist facility claimed the police dogs thy treated acted the same way. I appreciated their professionalism and understanding. I have definitely had good experiences with other vets too, in fact a few weeks ago when I took my crazy boy to get neutered the vet was an older guy who was confident and comfortable with my dog and was able to sedate him while havoc was leaning up against him saying hi. I don't expect all vets to be that comfortable with him though... I also have no illusions about my dogs temperament and do everything in my power to keep the health care professionals that have to deal with him safe. Something I think (from the appreciative comments I've gotten from vets) a lot of handlers are lacking.


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## cliffson1

@Wildo.....I don't think anyone said there is more bad than good, BUT if 65%of the breed is sound and 35% is not, then the breed is in bad shape. Would you accept a35% HD rate as a perspective buyer when inquiring of a breeder.....WELL.....vets who see volumes of the breed owned by all types of people reflect the breed is not as rosy as the fortunate folks that have the good dog may think it is. 
Btw, I went to see a 15 month old male yesterday, that the wife wanted to rehome as was told I could fix the dog or find it a good home. The dog was AKC, they had three generation pedigree on both parents, American/West German SL, and a pretty Bl and rd/tan. The dog was behind a child proof gate, with hackles up and backing up and barking at me the whole time. The husband said he bit the wife twice but basically he was a model dog except when taken in public or around new people. I thought to myself as I viewed this dog, " I see this picture so much these days....what has happened to this breed?"..... I kindly told the people he would be a project to rehome, but experienced dog people could be successful. 
My point is this type of dog is not uncommon anymore, and these people appeared to have raised this dog as a normal pet.....but the breed today often takes more than that:headbang:


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## wildo

Well- that's a good point Cliff- no, I wouldn't accept a 35% chance of HD. I agree that is pretty high. Man, I guess I'm just lucky. Amongst all the GSDs around here, I'd say most are relatively stable (I say relatively because I can't see everything that happens with them 24/7). I know there are a lot of less than stellar examples out there, but do you really think it's as high as 35%??


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## hunterisgreat

wildo said:


> Well- that's a good point Cliff- no, I wouldn't accept a 35% chance of HD. I agree that is pretty high. Man, I guess I'm just lucky. Amongst all the GSDs around here, I'd say most are relatively stable (I say relatively because I can't see everything that happens with them 24/7). I know there are a lot of less than stellar examples out there, but do you really think it's as high as 35%??


I believe its safe to say that a fair number who think their dog is sound and stable are either unaware or unwilling to accept it. On the flip side I'd wager the number that say their dog is unsound when it really is quite sound is almost nonexistent. SO the numbers are probably higher than they appear here... I'd bet the vast majority of "He's very protective" beliefs are unsoundness and weak nerves


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## Catu

hunterisgreat said:


> On the flip side I'd wager the number that say their dog is unsound when it really is quite sound is almost nonexistent.


Im not that sure. Every time someone writes me about their nightmare 7 - 9 months old dog who is a freak of nature, I read "perfectly normal adolescent pup".

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## cliffson1

@wildo....ask the vets.....lol....they see more dogs than either of us.


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## GsdLoverr729

Chip Blasiole said:


> The genetics that made the GSD a great working dog have largely been lost. Some people like Helmut Raiser have advocated cross breeding to the Malinois in an effort to save the breed. The show line people ruined the breed.


I have to say I find this untrue, and believe it is offensive to those breeding showlines properly. My local k9 unit has a WGSL male named Bear, and he is honestly the BEST they've had. He's very tolerant and relaxed, unless he is on the job. I've watched him take assailants down with three times the vigor of the working lines they have. Very healthy, excellent and solid dog. He doubles as a therapy dog in a children's hospital some weekends. We have two ASL males who come in and are very friendly and patient with us. Healthy dogs (3 yrs and 14 yrs), and they herd their owners' livestock. 
On the same note, I've had a few working line GSDs come into the vet I work at who are INSANE. Basically, what most vets/techs assume our breed is like  Most of my coworkers are scared of my girl for this reason, even though she ignores them and is perfect for her yearly/other exams. These are people who own rotties and dobes.

I don't think the breed was ruined by one line's breeders. It has been hit hard, however, by backyard breeders, ignorant puppy buyers (including myself 3 yrs ago when I bought my backyard bred WGWL female without researching good breeders), etc. 
Just my two cents.


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## ugavet2012

wildo said:


> Well- that's a good point Cliff- no, I wouldn't accept a 35% chance of HD. I agree that is pretty high. Man, I guess I'm just lucky. Amongst all the GSDs around here, I'd say most are relatively stable (I say relatively because I can't see everything that happens with them 24/7). I know there are a lot of less than stellar examples out there, but do you really think it's as high as 35%??


It's higher.


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## Catu

I admit that with my own dog I've suggested the muzzle when asked sometimes, not for basic stuff though. He has never snapped, but I know my dog and I can see for the tension on his lips and the squinted eyes when he is less then happy.

Since I am on vet school and I use to take my dogs with me often I lend them for demonstrations and while Akela is a gentleman with me on the room, I am not that confident if I'm out of sight. I am pretty sure he will never tolerate being pinned down by a stranger (maybe he wouldn't tolerate it even from me, but I'm not CM and I'm not messing around with my dog's trust) but he will lay down and on his side on command and if handled gently.


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## coachcj

I just joined this board and I've been reluctant to post, but this happens to be a great thread that I've had many a discussion/debate about. First, I think that many police use a mal gsd cross strictly because they came across a good dog. One misconception is that that all K-9 handlers are dog experts. Some of the k-9 handlers have no experience/knowledge of bloodlines and have strictly chosen to work in that particular field, just like some police will branch out into homicide, some will weigh trucks, some will branch out into task force. Many units, if they are able to establish a a good relationship with breeder/trainer/broker, simply buy dogs from that same person over and over. If the breeder brings a GSD, they use a GSD. If the breeder brings a Mal, Dutch, or cross, then they use it. 

I also know that, while many Mal people like to boast about the superiority of the Mal vs the GSD (and in many phases this is true), many of the initial switches were simply related to cost. Most GSDs cost much more than Mals (not to mention eat more). This is to take nothing away from the Malinois- I love the Mal and they are great dogs, but many police went to GSDs to Mals the way many went from Ford Crown Victorias to Dodge Chargers. It was more cost effective. In the same way, I know many common men who have made the switch for the same reason. Many people can't afford for a $1500 puppy to NOT work out. If you don't know anyone, you will be hard pressed to find a well bred GSD pup for less than $1200, while you can still find a very solid bred Mal for half that price.


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## coachcj

carmspack said:


> dragging a post I made on "byb" over here because it is on point to the discussion
> 
> "
> thanks Cliff . I hope to get a next generation if I can get some of her brothers semen put on ice. Six mile tracks are a piece of cake for him. Which brings me to the value of the DDR lines -- not all and not any , or at least anymore since all things in working need to be deliberately conserved.
> Here is a quote from Josef Mravik eurosport site "The dogs were heavy, strong boned and had huge heads. They were slower but powerful. Obedience was a necessary evil. The dogs never looked at the handler with dancing footsteps. They did obedience because they had to but they were always watching for a bad guy.
> For so many generations in the Eastern Block the dogs were made for war. There was no other motivation. The dogs must function on their own. They had to be able to work independently of the handler. They were expected to think for themselves in many situations. They were titled out in the forest, not in a stadium. The ZVV/SVV title is a "real-life" situation title.
> Until 1989 there were no separate show and working lines. All German Shepherd Dogs were working dogs. When the border opened the German influence began and the breed began to be separated.
> West Germans have always placed a lot of influence on Schutzhund. The dogs performed in a stadium not a train station. The extreme high nerves of the West German dogs can be attributed to the use of the dogs in sport. The dogs must not think for themselves. Their entire goal needs to be to please and work for the handlers. This is comparing apples to oranges
> The traits that the Eastern block needed in the dog was considered stubborn or too independent and the West German dogs were considered nervous or needy.
> The East German (DDR) dogs and Czech dogs were interbred successfully because they were breeding for the same characteristics. Prior to 1989 the show line dog did not exist in Cechkoslovakia. There was one GSD and they worked or they were not bred. The dogs still were required to get a show rating and a black or sable dog could win just as easily as a black and tan dog.
> Tremendous emphasis was/is put on the tracking ability of the dog. The dogs were used in rugged conditions in the snow and ice to find criminals hiding in the mountains. The dogs and handlers were out for days at a time tracking the smugglers. Dogs were not sold. Their work was essential to the survival and economy of the country. The dogs were not social to people outside their family unit. " then ends the piece by saying that ". So much of the old blood that made up the border patrol dogs has vanished. "
> 
> Curious how things have changed from "The dogs were heavy, strong boned and had huge heads. They were slower but powerful. Obedience was a necessary evil. The dogs never looked at the handler with dancing footsteps. They did obedience because they had to but they were always watching for a bad guy" to the demand for the North American "taste" for openly friendly , pet , or prancy schutzhund dog has lead to "Many old school breeders believe that this is leading to the demise of the true Police and Border Patrol dogs"
> 
> Trends were demand for black and tan, black and red. If you had a sable good luck to you. Then the DDR dogs were the bright shiny object and people would want one , now it is the Czech dog . People phoning for pet puppies wanting Czech dogs without knowing why. They have no experience , no understanding -- and the dogs keep changing to meet the market .
> __________________


 
Carmspack, great post. I am new to the board, but I always love reading posts by you, Cliffson1, Chris Wild, and others as well . I imagine those old dogs consistently worked in a stressful environment- that's hard to mimick. I cannot lie- I get somewhat perturbed at some of the "Old Style DDR breeders" that I've met who live in very nice communities and have very nice facilities and amenities like pens to allow the dogs to stretch their legs and even air conditioned kennels. They have great dogs, no doubt, but would probably cringe at the very thought of a dog being tied on a run or chain or missing a day of food. I'm not angry at all about the facilities or the dogs' comfort. I just don't like the thought of people trying to take advantage of unsuspecting customers an "Old Style Border Patrol" dog. Ironically, I have dogs heavy in DDR blood, but I chose mine simply because I was able to work the parents of my pup and really liked them. 
I'm glad that you mentioned environment. I coached basketball and one thing that I always worked hard on with my teams was simulating "real game" situations the ability to perform in a tough environment-the noise, the hecklers, the unfamiliar faces, the lighting,etc all play a huge role in players' performance. You really find out a lot about your guys. You also find that some guys play great as long as their parents and friends are in the front row, but you had better not put them in an away game,lol


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