# Attention WOLF DOG EXPERTS: does this mix look like it has any wolf in it?



## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

A co-worker mentioned that he has a wolf dog, and our boss told him to talk to me since I'm the resident "wolf expert." Ha! My boss just knows that I'm studying wolves and dogs, and that my plan is to work in wolf conservation after I retire from the Air Force.

Anyways, from my studies, I know that you really can't confirm wolf DNA, especially by just looking at pictures. I also know that you can have a pure dog that might act wolfy, and might own a wolf dog that acts all doggy, so there's no real way to tell wolf content or not. With my own Beowulf, 50% of the so-called "wolf experts" on this site said he has zero wolf in him, while the other half said he definitely looks to have some (probably low content) wolf.

I told my co-worker I would ask the "experts" and get back to him. Here are the pics he provided. I know they aren't the best, but they're all I have to work with. My opinion is that this looks to be a typical malamute/GSD cross, as they all seem to look very similar and are the more popular mix when trying to create the look of a wolf dog with no wolf content involved. What do you think?


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

looks like a Husky/GSD mix. If Malamute mix I think it would be taller.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Gretchen said:


> looks like a Husky/GSD mix. If Malamute mix I think it would be taller.


 I can't tell how tall he is by the pictures, but yeah, husky/GSD cross is the 2nd most popular supposed wolf dog pairing after Mal/GSD. Mal/GSD would give it more the proper size of a wolf. My Beowulf is probably mostly husky/wolf mix, with some Mal in there, but he's only 65 lbs, so more the size/weight of a husky. Paw Paw is 60-62 lbs, pure Siberian. Beowulf has longer legs than any of our dogs, to include Kaze who is 26". Beowulf also has thick, rounded ears like a wolf, whereas Paw Paw's ears are thin and pointed like a dog.

But yeah, with this dog, I can't tell his height, and he is supposedly under a year old and 72 lbs.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Do a DNA test, the results will be a lot more accurate than peoples opinions based on some pictures. Without seeing the dog and observing it's mannerisms (even that is sketchy) it would be impossible to provide an accurate answer to your question.


Kim


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would think coyote over wolf, but malamute is probably most likely.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Pirates Lair said:


> Do a DNA test, the results will be a lot more accurate than peoples opinions based on some pictures. Without seeing the dog and observing it's mannerisms (even that is sketchy) it would be impossible to provide an accurate answer to your question.
> 
> 
> Kim


So I've read that the DNA tests aren't as accurate as we once thought they were, even the UC Davis test, which is supposedly the most accurate when analyzing wolf percentages (if any). But you're right, it's hard to tell wolf content through pictures or sometimes even meeting the dog in person.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The only thing possibly wolfy to me is his muzzle. Too pointy for a Malamute/GSD mix (picture 3 and 4).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are wolf experts on this board?


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

All but 2 pics looks wolfy to me. I had a Timberwolf/ GSD mix once. That's kinda how she looked. 
My 2cents. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> There are wolf experts on this board?


You shall see! 

Ha.

There have been people who would like to think they are wolf experts. That's why it was funny when half of them told me Beowulf had wolf in him, and half said he did not. I just enjoy the conversation and love talking about anything wolf and dog related, especially to help pass the time while at work on a slow day.opcorn:


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I see some wolf characteristics.. Especially in the last few pics.. The wolf crosses I've seen over the years are extremely leggy and tall..


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

If you skip ahead to 0:49 of this video you will see a "Real" young wolf, their mannerisms are similar but also far different from domesticated dogs, the same thing goes for wolf hybrids. Once you have been around them the characteristics are quite discernible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibVUEWwye7Y&list=UU4HTUxBosnniOt-ZKfcktCQ&index=25

Though DNA may not be 100% accurate (as pointed out) still the closest thing to go by on a forum.

Kim


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

He looks more malamute mix to me


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

For everyone who thinks they have, or have had a dog with wolf in its pedigree, please keep in mind that Grey Wolves (also referred to as Timber Wolves) were not re-introduced to the U.S. until 1995. They were captured in the Peace River area of B.C. and Alberta, Canada.

Chances are that unless your dogs dam spent a lot of time in wilderness areas of Idaho, Montana or Wyoming during the late 1990's up until today.........it's just a husky x.

Until DNA test are more accurate, you will never know. So just be happy with your dog and have fun with it no matter what it's pedigree is.

Kim


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Pirates Lair said:


> For everyone who thinks they have, or have had a dog with wolf in its pedigree, please keep in mind that Grey Wolves (also referred to as Timber Wolves) were not re-introduced to the U.S. until 1995. They were captured in the Peace River area of B.C. and Alberta, Canada.
> 
> Chances are that unless your dogs dam spent a lot of time in wilderness areas of Idaho, Montana or Wyoming during the late 1990's up until today.........it's just a husky x.
> 
> ...


 I think the majority of true wolf dogs come from wolves that were captive, not wild. You're right, wild wolves were eliminated in the US until the mid-90s, but there are captive wolves kept, legally or illegally, in all of the lower 48 states. I also believe that 90-95% of supposed "wolf" dogs are really 100% pure domesticated dogs bred to look like they have wolf in them, when really they are just some mix of Mal, Husky, and GSD, plus numerous other breeds.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

Honestly does not look very "wolfy" to me. I have seen dogs (100% dog) that were bred to look like wolves that looked more wolflike than this guy. In one picture, his muzzle looked extra long and slim and that was the closest to a wolfy trait that I saw, but then in other pictures, it didn't look that way so I think it was the angle of the photo. 
I think maybe he could be a very low content wolfdog who mainly picked up the physical traits of a dog, but I'm doubtful.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Well, aren't people still breeding wolf hybrids? And aren't there still wolf hybrid (wolf cross) rescues here in the US?

Maybe have your friend contact them...


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

Pirates Lair said:


> For everyone who thinks they have, or have had a dog with wolf in its pedigree, please keep in mind that Grey Wolves (also referred to as Timber Wolves) were not re-introduced to the U.S. until 1995. They were captured in the Peace River area of B.C. and Alberta, Canada.
> 
> Chances are that unless your dogs dam spent a lot of time in wilderness areas of Idaho, Montana or Wyoming during the late 1990's up until today.........it's just a husky x.
> 
> ...



You could be right. The guy I bought my " dog " from a guy who was selling " hybrid wolf cubs " in the parking lot at Lowes. No papers. $200 for the males and $250 for the females. I thought it would be really cool to own a hybrid wolf cub. He said they were 3/4 Timberwolf and 1/4 GSD. She looked wolfy to me. Lol. I'll see if I can dig a picture up when I get home. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

The photo where he's lying on a tiled floor, where you can see the shape of his head and muzzle says wolf content to me. The long narrow muzzle, the shape of the head... Not malamute. Maybe too big for coyote, but I think some wolf. A couple other photos too.

A good side shot with him standing square, taken from his level so there's no foreshortening going on in the photo, this would help a lot.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Guessing is just that. No way to tell. If you to want to look deeper into the crosses, I would suggest starting with the differences between Artic (or Tundra) wolves and the Eastern Timber Wolf. 

Then it would be beneficial to look at the genetics. F1 cross and F2 crosses re; litter characteristics.

The photo (sorry - poor quality) Is of the sire of the cross I had. A Timber Wolf. The reason though for including this photo is not of him but the dog in the background. She looks a lot like a GSD doesn't she? Rounder ears, yes - different markings, yes - but distinctly high GSD content right???

No. This female in the background is only 1/8th German Shepherd. 7/8ths Timber wolf. That is an 8 foot electric fence she's behind. What is she looking so intently at? A female Tundra wolf (wild caught) that outweighed her by 50lbs. This GSD (looking) smaller female a week later got under one fence and over another despite the shocks and killed the female Tundra wolf. She was the dominant female among the 6 wolves that were on the property. A very, very dangerous animal despite her looks and smaller size. Just another example of how "looks" can deceive.... So, to try to say there's no wolf content in your friends dog... I don't see the basis when you know how varied the F1 - F2 crosses can be....


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*Counter-* You made some good points to ponder. I will excuse my self now and get some popcorn to enjoy the show along with you.

Kim


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## CountryGirl01 (Dec 10, 2014)

I would say nay, probably not half (or any significant amount) wolf and DEFINITELY not part coyote! Coyotes are barely larger than foxes and the coy-dog hybrids are impossible to tame unless more than half of the coy-dog is dog. Not to mention coy-dogs are beyond extremely rare. Wolf hybrids are far more common.

Actually, the markings on your dog remind me of the elusive, and endangered, Red Wolf _Canis rufus_:









But to be completely honest I doubt your dog has any wolf in it. I'm mainly Bringing up the Red Wolf because the markings are so similar; even though it is more likely the markings on your dog are caused by some Husky being mixed in there. But I though it couldn't hurt to mention it


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> For everyone who thinks they have, or have had a dog with wolf in its pedigree, please keep in mind that Grey Wolves (also referred to as Timber Wolves) were not re-introduced to the U.S. until 1995. They were captured in the Peace River area of B.C. and Alberta, Canada.
> 
> Chances are that unless your dogs dam spent a lot of time in wilderness areas of Idaho, Montana or Wyoming during the late 1990's up until today.........it's just a husky x.
> 
> ...


That photo I included in my post was taken in 1978. There are many, many true wolf hybrid dogs in every state. I had a permit in 1979 from the Dept of Interior - Alaska to live trap up to 3 wolves in Alaska. My friend was a wildlife biologist and had all the permits necessary to keep the wolves. All it takes is money to capture and transport and a licensed facility to house them in. 

The restrictive part is states that prohibit selling the crosses to the public &(unlicensed person to own). This particular compound was in San Diego county. Illegal to own there - but openly advertised and sold for many decades by many breeders. Most were F2 crosses. Mine was F1 because Bill had the license and the wolves. 

The sire (in the photo) was confiscated from someone in Hollywood who didn't have a permit. He was particularly good looking and they were using him for some type of film. 

Hybrids have been sold to the public for a very long time. The reintroduction here in 1995 where I live had nothing to do with it. Yes, it's been illegal - so is pot - and LE is about equally successful policing the hybrid sales.....


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Stonevintage- I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else. Owning a Wolf or a Wolf hybrid is, in my experience and personal opinion....a mistake. 

Wolves are wolves, and Domesticated dogs are domesticated dogs, again in my experience and my personal opinion....a mistake to own or cross breed them.

I know people think it sounds cool to say your dog is a wolf cross. wolf hybrids (in my opinion) cannot enjoy the life of a wolf or a dog, their to confused.

Wild animals have no place in captivity, just my opinion. Enough good dogs get killed in Shelters every year, why cause more problems.

Anyway....I am not now, nor have I ever claimed to be an expert, just putting in my 2 cents, have a Great Safe Day

Kim


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Pirates Lair said:


> Chances are that unless your dogs dam spent a lot of time in wilderness areas of Idaho, Montana or Wyoming during the late 1990's up until today.........it's just a husky x.
> 
> Until DNA test are more accurate, you will never know. So just be happy with your dog and have fun with it no matter what it's pedigree is.
> 
> Kim


 
the dam doesn't need a night of wild-encounter . There are many dedicated wolf-dog breeding operations -
enjoy realwolfdogs

realwolfdogs

To make it perfectly clear I do NOT endorse wolf - dog hybrids . 

The dog in question looks like a northern breeds cross . There are many "American" bred GSD with long muzzles.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thru the years I say no to 90% of people who have asked me about getting one. The other 10% that were a good match and raised a well balanced cross - incredible experience. 

This is not the best site to find answers to the questions you have. I would post on a hybrid site. There are several and I'm sure they will be happy to help.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> ...
> I know people think it sounds cool to say your dog is a wolf cross. *wolf hybrids (in my opinion) cannot enjoy the life of a wolf or a dog, their to confused.*


...

Like Counter, I want to sit back and watch the rest of this thread, but I couldn't resist myself with the statement above that I bolded. Pirates Lair, I'm wondering what you based it on. Personal experience? Speculation? I by no means endorse anyone going out and purchasing wolf/dog crosses (they're not hybrids). That said, I had a number of them over the years, beginning in the early 1970s. Different percentages. And I can truthfully and emphatically say that none of them were confused, and every one of them enjoyed their lives in our household.

Okay, Counter, pass the popcorn. 

Susan


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> ...
> 
> Like Counter, I want to sit back and watch the rest of this thread, but I couldn't resist myself with the statement above that I bolded. Pirates Lair, I'm wondering what you based it on. Personal experience? Speculation? I by no means endorse anyone going out and purchasing wolf/dog crosses (they're not hybrids). That said, I had a number of them over the years, beginning in the early 1970s. Different percentages. And I can truthfully and emphatically say that none of them were confused, and every one of them enjoyed their lives in our household.
> 
> ...


There are many captive bred wolf hybrids in the NW. Some I have known personally and they appeared to be happy "dogs" but not easy as pets. I think it is the humans who are most confused.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> ...*but not easy as pets*. *I think it is the humans who are most confused*.


Agree 1000%. Not easy, which is why I never recommend them to anyone. Lots of sacrifice for their benefit, need lots of assertiveness, and you can't be afraid of physicality. For me the sacrifices were worth it, they are incredible companions--not pets--and life with them is nowhere near 'ordinary.'

Susan


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*Susan*- I base my comments on 19 years as a Cruelty Invest. for the BC SPCA, my time as a Wrangler for a Guide Outfitters Lodge in Northern B.C. ,working with people in the film industry who use and keep wolves and dealing with animal owners who come to us for help with their "Wolf x Dogs". 

Have a good night

Kim


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

My personal opinion is best summed up by a quote I read a few years ago. 

"When we choose to keep what are supposed to be wild animals as pets, we turn them into something outside of wild, something for which nature has no place."

I'm super satisfied with huskies and GSDs for all my dog needs.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Pirates Lair said:


> *Susan*- I base my comments on 19 years as a Cruelty Invest. for the BC SPCA, my time as a Wrangler for a Guide Outfitters Lodge in Northern B.C. ,working with people in the film industry who use and keep wolves and dealing with animal owners who come to us for help with their "Wolf x Dogs".
> 
> Have a good night
> 
> Kim


Your quite the ray of sunshine aren't you.

Welcome to the forum....

Have a good night. 

Cathy


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

The tail and the hair on it's back point to wolf heritage but the size to me says coyote . . but the proportions say wolf


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Saphire said:


> Your quite the ray of sunshine aren't you.
> 
> Welcome to the forum....
> 
> ...



Care to explain your comment or should I just make my own assumptions?

Kim


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> Stonevintage- I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else. Owning a Wolf or a Wolf hybrid is, in my experience and personal opinion....a mistake.
> 
> Wolves are wolves, and Domesticated dogs are domesticated dogs, again in my experience and my personal opinion....a mistake to own or cross breed them.
> 
> ...


I can understand why you have the opinion that you do with the personal experiences that you have had. 

You must know that you have seen the worst, not the best.... When would you ever in your experience - have had people who raised these crosses successfully - come to you to share their experience? 

I am quite sure that your opinion is biased, certainly not objective or from the point of view of anyone who has personally raised one. 

The wolf/dog crosses are a perfect example of our tendency to "humanize" what they must be thinking/feeling. They are not confused - there are some differences and accommodations to be made, but to think it's all bad, IMHO is a mistake. They don't have some inborn knowledge of all they are missing if they were a pure wolf in the wild. They don't have some inborn knowledge that they are "different" then other dogs and feel miserable about it. It takes the right family and the right cross, if that happens - there is a very good outcome. 

Man's relationship with the dog came thru the wolf. A relationship that has evolved to be the closest and most beneficial than any other animal. There is a reason for that. They have the intelligence and the capacity to form a bond with us crazy human beings.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Pirates Lair said:


> *Counter-* You made some good points to ponder. I will excuse my self now and get some popcorn to enjoy the show along with you.
> 
> Kim



(me)opcorn::toasting:opcorn: (you)


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I can understand why you have the opinion that you do with the personal experiences that you have had.
> 
> You must know that you have seen the worst, not the best.... When would you ever in your experience - have had people who raised these crosses successfully - come to you to share their experience?
> 
> ...


A big YES to everything in Stonevintage's post. Spoken with the authority of someone with genuine experience.

Susan


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

CountryGirl01 said:


> I would say nay, probably not half (or any significant amount) wolf and DEFINITELY not part coyote! Coyotes are barely larger than foxes and the coy-dog hybrids are impossible to tame unless more than half of the coy-dog is dog. Not to mention coy-dogs are beyond extremely rare. Wolf hybrids are far more common.
> 
> Actually, the markings on your dog remind me of the elusive, and endangered, Red Wolf _Canis rufus_:
> 
> ...


I was told my Beowulf was a red wolf/husky crossed with gray wolf/malamute. When I started researching this, I found that having any wolf dog that supposedly has red wolf lineage is extremely rare and most likely untrue. I've found pictures of arctic wolves as pups, that looked identical to Beowulf as a pup. In fact, I could put their pics side by side and you wouldn't be able to tell which one was the wolf and which was the wolf dog. So I'm thinking that Beowulf is more likely to be malamute/husky crossed with a little arctic wolf, but his size is mostly that of a Siberian. I highly doubt there is any red wolf in him. I think this came from the fact that he has a reddish coat, but huskies are also red. When he was a pup he actually had black areas of fur. All of that black is gone now, and he is cream a red. I'll post some pics:


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Stonevintage said:


> That photo I included in my post was taken in 1978. There are many, many true wolf hybrid dogs in every state. I had a permit in 1979 from the Dept of Interior - Alaska to live trap up to 3 wolves in Alaska. My friend was a wildlife biologist and had all the permits necessary to keep the wolves. All it takes is money to capture and transport and a licensed facility to house them in.
> 
> The restrictive part is states that prohibit selling the crosses to the public &(unlicensed person to own). This particular compound was in San Diego county. Illegal to own there - but openly advertised and sold for many decades by many breeders. Most were F2 crosses. Mine was F1 because Bill had the license and the wolves.
> 
> ...


If you ever come near Boise, let me know. We'll have to meet up and talk about dogs and wolves and L. David Mech. Ha! I will eventually make it up to WERC in Winchester. Maybe we can meet there? I ordered 6 wolf books this week to add to my collection, 2 from Mech. I just received another Dutcher book yesterday. Would love to meet you and your husband and discuss your experiences from the 70s and 80s. I put in for a job in Alaska through the Air Force. It would be great to move up there and retire to study wolves through conservation until I die. That's my dream, hopefully the military will help me get there.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I think the dog looks wolfy to me. 

But I see more Husky than Malamute when I look at him too.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

carmspack said:


> The dog in question looks like a northern breeds cross . There are many "American" bred GSD with long muzzles.


 That's what I was thinking too. Thank you!


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> ...
> 
> Like Counter, I want to sit back and watch the rest of this thread...
> 
> ...


 Join us. Three is not a crowd when it comes to popcorn, GSDs, and wolves.

opcorn: (me)opcorn: (Kim)opcorn: (you)


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Kahrg4 said:


> I'm super satisfied with huskies and GSDs for all my dog needs.


 Ha! Agreed! Huskies are about as close as you can come to naturally wolfy looks and behavior without owning a real wolfdog. I can speak from experience! Science has proven this through testing DNA and genetics too. GSDs have the right size and shape (other than their radar ears) and Siberians have that look and attitude, drive, intensity, ancient history and wildness about them.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Guessing is just that. No way to tell. If you to want to look deeper into the crosses, I would suggest starting with the differences between Artic (or Tundra) wolves and the Eastern Timber Wolf.
> 
> Then it would be beneficial to look at the genetics. F1 cross and F2 crosses re; litter characteristics.
> 
> ...


YES. One of mine, a male many years ago who was verifiably high content, we called him our wolf in shepherd's clothing. He looked like a big-boned black and red GSD, except for a wolfier texture to his coat and a longer muzzle, huge canines, slightly longer legs. His personality and intelligence, however, were totally wolf in all ways, and fortunately for me, he was not an alpha. I got him when he was 4 weeks old, and thankfully I had a big female GSD/wolf cross at the time. She put manners and sensibility into him. He was my heart 'dog'.

Susan


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

There is something interesting in the facial markings of this dog that indicates wolf content. Can you guess what it is?

The two patches of color under and to the side of the eyes that look like inverted triangles. They alone to me indicate wolf content.

Take a look at all the Malamute images on google, then all the husky images. In every case the masking runs North of a lateral line straight out from the eyes. A few may have color spots directly under the lower eyelid but the cross often has these triangles of color running South of the lateral eye line. Not all crosses and not all wolves have this drop down triangle of color, but when it's there - its definitely not GSD, Malamute or Husky and it is a trait of some wolf lines.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I've only interacted with a few hybrids and my research on them falls short of some of you, but I've gotten the same information as Pirate (Kim) regarding them being confused or conflicted. I would imagine that just as complex as gsd breeding can be, its the same or perhaps worse for hybrids? What kind of consistency would there be in a litter?


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

No consistency because so many 'breeders' are breeding for nothing more than the right to say they are breeding wolfdogs. Among those I have had, I can point to all sorts of differences in genotype and phenotype. However, the confusion is, as someone else noted, among the humans, not the canines. And if you found individuals who seemed 'confused' it's because, once again, you are looking at those who someone raised who probably shouldn't have had any canine at all. I guarantee that put into a stable environment the confusion would disappear.

Even the huge variety in genes has worked out in a number of breeds that have been developed throughout the world using wolf/dog crosses.

Again, however, as much as I loved these animals, I do not recommend F1 or even F2 to anyone. It takes way more devotion and sacrifice than the average dog person is willing to give.

Susan


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Nigel said:


> I've only interacted with a few hybrids and my research on them falls short of some of you, but I've gotten the same information as Pirate (Kim) regarding them being confused or conflicted. I would imagine that just as complex as gsd breeding can be, its the same or perhaps worse for hybrids? What kind of consistency would there be in a litter?


I think that it is more complex too Nigel. I asked the biologist why he was only crossing with GSD's. He said that was in order to minimize ending up with an animal that was pretty much untrainable. With a Malamute or Husky cross, you may end up with an animal that looks more "wolfy" but, because those breeds are typically more difficult to train the outcome adapting to human family lifestyle is poor. 

In addition to using the GSD as a "control", he insisted that no cross would be adopted out to anyone who did not already have a well trained dog. In his opinion, it was key to have a "leader" dog to help assimilate the cross into the "pack". And not just any type - larger, easy to train, tough (can stand up to lots of roughhousing). His 25% would go to no one without a trained dog, his 50% must have well trained dog and on his approval only, 75% only those who had previously owned 50% or better and upon his approval. This, because he took back every pup that people couldn't handle. That was the contract - they had to be returned to him so he could get training straightened out and find a proper home. 

Some (the 75% and the 7/8ths) were returned to him and were destined to become a part of his pack forever - not suitable for life with people. I feel he had as good of a breeding program and certainly the knowledge to be a leader in this type of breeding - but even he could not select thoroughly enough to get predictable outcomes (even in the F2 litters). It wasn't just a bad choice on sire and dam - the problem dogs came out of litters where the others were just fine.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

still against wolf and dog crosses. Let them be.
There are some wolves with dog DNA from some encounter with a dog on the periphery of human habitation living well in the wild -- better I would say then that same wolf would experience with limited roaming range , human emotions and expectations , diet , alien social structure and made to be a dog , an ego satisfying ornament .

"I asked the biologist why he was only crossing with GSD's"
you would think he would have had greater love and respect for a wild animal with hundreds of centuries of evolution to adapt to environment, resources and social structure .
A dog has had 10 to 15 thousand years to adapt to "our" environment, resources and needs of social structure -- which are polar opposite.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Stonevintage said:


> There is something interesting in the facial markings of this dog that indicates wolf content. Can you guess what it is?
> 
> The two patches of color under and to the side of the eyes that look like inverted triangles. They alone to me indicate wolf content.
> 
> Take a look at all the Malamute images on google, then all the husky images. In every case the masking runs North of a lateral line straight out from the eyes. A few may have color spots directly under the lower eyelid but the cross often has these triangles of color running South of the lateral eye line. Not all crosses and not all wolves have this drop down triangle of color, but when it's there - its definitely not GSD, Malamute or Husky and it is a trait of some wolf lines.


This is an interesting point, which led me to look at wolf masks compared to Malamute masks. I know husky masks are a lot different than Mal masks, so I focused on Mal vs wolf. I did find some similar images of Mals that look like this (wolf) dog in question, with those triangles you speak of:



















This is a Malamute/husky wooly mix (no wolf content):










Website says this is a Mal/Sibe/GSD cross:










Not sure if that is what you were talking about or not.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

German Shepherd


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Maybe Carmen can weigh in here? She may be familiar with this line, or where it came from?

London was a really unique looking GSD, and passed his markings on to his offspring. You don't see this pattern around much anymore as it isn't 'correct'. But once in a while I see one and almost without fail it's owner is telling me they have a wolfdog.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Never saw London before, but I just google image searched for "the littlest hobo" and there are a bunch of similar pics, like these:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

That's them. The littlest Hobo was a TV series, starring London and his kids. I believe it was Lance? who Chuck said was most like London.

My point was the unique markings, not typically seen in GSD's that are often mistaken for something else. Specifically the facial markings.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Chuck Eisenmann owner and educator of these dogs worked in my neighbourhood (Toronto Beaches) many times filming "The littlest Hobo" which was not one dog , but one of many all with a specialty. One for barking, one for walking backwards , one for jumping -- well maybe not that particular , but not far off.

I followed him to the different locations . I followed him to the different plazas where he had promotional events. One time I picked up the phone and had Leo Bellino (Carissima) and Mitzi Frohle (host of first schutzhund activity in Ontario) come out to a plaza to have a close look at a demonstration. 

Go around enough and see a routine and you can spot a cue or signal which put the dog into a sequence . 

On filming sites you could see multiple takes to get one correct scratch at door (example) , by the end , the dog looked ground .

I have all the books , Stop , Sit and Think is the main one.

The first contact was when Eisenmann contacted our training club looking for breeding females to mate his main dog to in order to get that specific facial mask . Any dogs that did not inherit this pattern were discards , or to enter the Viet Nam fray still ongoing at that time. No one went for it. 

Out of the dogs that did have that pattern maybe one in 20 would be considered for "training" . 

Now here's the thing . In the 10 or more years that the Hobo was in production and Eisenmann was covered in morning news, or interviews for radio or newspaper , or personal demonstrations he ALWAYS said the dogs were GSD . He wanted to breed to GSD . 
Towards the very end mid to late 80's he was saying they were wolf-dogs . MMMMM

I tried to look into the lines -- dead end.

I had a sable Carmspack Joker , rich red sable Carmspack Joker -- strong old herding genetics that did have those triangular points coming down from his eyes as a mask.

If you go into the von Stephanitz book and go to page 76 where there is a brief discussion about the Bosnian and Istrian herdsman's dogs you can see some of this facial mask pattern.
Again , very clear , and identified as German sheherd dog 1880 on Page 122 , page 126 , a Swabian working dog .

Breed is a modern creation for uniformity and purity .

Those that depended on their dogs had a rough form of uniformity determined by efficient function . It was not at all unusual for the best herding brood bitches to be bred to an equally competent male from another - each one being a little more specialized to their locals needs . 

These were the indigenous herding dogs that von Stephanitz had to return to several times in the development of the breed , attempting to get uniformity and beauty , but needing to do so to recover or secure temperament and the working ability.

wolves were not "it"

A lot of this is covered in this new book , available soon.
Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I never saw that series. There is quit a bit out there about how those markings were specifically bred for by "Chuck". Pedigree database has some detail on the line. They call it "reverse mask marking" and it has something to do with the Agouti gene. 

I am just not sure why so many want to deny that there are wolf dogs out there. They are common. More common then the reverse masked GSD as that is an undesired trait and normally bred out. 

I'm not sure what the conception is of what a wolf cross "should" look like that is causing the controversy. What should one look like? Or, what should one act like for you to say "yes, there's wolf content"? This is why initially I suggested to learn the differences between the Artic/tundra wolf and the Eastern Timber Wolf. Also why I included the photo of the 7/8ths Timber Wolf that looks decidedly like mostly GSD.

What do you expect to see????


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> still against wolf and dog crosses. Let them be.
> There are some wolves with dog DNA from some encounter with a dog on the periphery of human habitation living well in the wild -- better I would say then that same wolf would experience with limited roaming range , human emotions and expectations , diet , alien social structure and made to be a dog , an ego satisfying ornament .
> 
> "I asked the biologist why he was only crossing with GSD's"
> ...


" an ego satisfying ornament"??? Same could be said for GSD show dogs.

I think because wildlife biologists tend not to romanticize or humanize an animal. They are more analytical about a species. I don't believe that the crossings threaten the wild wolves. I don't believe they show a lack of respect for the wild wolves. Quite the opposite, many unfounded beliefs are dispelled when someone gets to interact with a captive wolf or wolf cross. It is a time of education and overcoming prejudices against the wolf. 

As far as the inability or conflict with socialization. Another controversy. What is instinct and what is learned behavior? The old beliefs about wolf pack society no longer stand. What was perceived about critical elements of pack structure have been proven to be incorrect. If the social requirements were inherent we would see very few success stories about raising these crosses. It can and does work and the cross is not confused, lacking or frustrated. But, you can't know that unless you have had the experience.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

There has always been a great deal of controversy over whether or not the "Littlest Hobo (s)" was/were actual GSDs or crosses. Every Canadian over 40 grew up as a child watching the show, still a favorite of mine. 

None of these dogs were ever mentioned in the book by Jordan Taylor.
Wonder Dogs: 101 German Shepherd Dog Films: Jordan Taylor: 9780980009002: Amazon.com: Books

The GSD on the cover of the book is my boy Canczech Solo (he is buried in my back yard)

And, I know I can't comment *"with the authority of someone with genuine experience".*

However, since some of you seem interested in reading up on the subject you might enjoy reading the book I am currently reading, fascinating information which (in my opinion) confirms my thoughts on this subject.


Man and Wolf - Advances, Issues, and Problems in Captive Wolf | H. Frank | Springer


Anyway, I have to run out and get some more beer & popcorn, I invited some of the guys over to watch this show.


Kim


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

HaHaHa! and I should be trying to earn a living instead of posting here


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> There has always been a great deal of controversy over whether or not the "Littlest Hobo (s)" was/were actual GSDs or crosses. Every Canadian over 40 grew up as a child watching the show, still a favorite of mine.
> 
> None of these dogs were ever mentioned in the book by Jordan Taylor.
> Wonder Dogs: 101 German Shepherd Dog Films: Jordan Taylor: 9780980009002: Amazon.com: Books
> ...


I went to order the book. Least expensive used $227.00 on Amazon. You paid $449.00 Canadian?? That's a little pricey for me....


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Was just an idea for a book to read, "True Knowledge" cost money....Internet Forums....free.

It is worth the money, very good book.

Kim


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> Was just an idea for a book to read, "True Knowledge" cost money....Internet Forums....free.
> 
> It is worth the money, very good book.
> 
> Kim


Well there's my thought for the day. "True knowledge cost money. Thanks!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"There is quit a bit out there about how those markings were specifically bred for by "Chuck".

Only because he needed a stand in - just as "Lassie" was several dogs . Then he needed a dog to continue as Hobo , after the original became too old and passed on.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Now, I'm going for popcorn and beer. I just found a documentary about a couple the Dutchers that lived with a wolf pack in the Sawtooth's here in Idaho. It's 1:35 long. It's free on youtube. Just search "Living with Wolves Youtube".


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is the banner from my web site .

The little pup sitting beside my leg look up attentively is the a grand kid of "Joker" the dog I said had this distinctive reverse mask. You can see the pup has this also . As the pup matured the sable on the face darkened and the lighter portion expanded making it seem as if he had a mask on .


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Very cool Web site Banner! 

Lots of nice looking GSD's (K9 Pirates)

Kim


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Your coworker should be more careful advertising their dog as a wolfdog. From what I've heard, Idaho has tricky wolfdog laws. They are illegal in some cities and counties. And state-wide, wolfdogs who look to have 'significant content' require permits. And the definition of 'significant content' is at the discretion of the animal control officer. Even owners of sable german shepherds on here have had their dogs mistaken for wolves.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Syaoransbear said:


> Your coworker should be more careful advertising their dog as a wolfdog. From what I've heard, Idaho has tricky wolfdog laws. They are illegal in some cities and counties. And state-wide, wolfdogs who look to have 'significant content' require permits. And the definition of 'significant content' is at the discretion of the animal control officer. Even owners of sable german shepherds on here have had their dogs mistaken for wolves.


Yeah, that's the 2nd thing I told him, after first telling him that most advertised wolfdogs are in reality pure dogs with zero wolf content. That's when I asked for pictures and posted them here. My Beowulf is a husky/Malamute mix to any Idahoans who ask! Ha!!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Another concern. Rabies vaccinations are not recognized as effective in wolves or crosses. That means if you choose to allow your cross the same freedoms a dog has, you will find your self in deep doo doo if your dog ever bites a person (intentionally or in play by accident). The procedure is to detach the head from the body and send it for rabies testing.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Tons of people across Idaho think that Leia is part wolf.  Or full wolf. Familiar with Boise, Counter? There's a man made pond in Garden City called Veterans. I had a couple approach me once and ask if Leia was a wolf. Not a wolf dog, but a wolf. She is certainly not a wolf, though when she's shaggy, she can often look a touch wolfy lol.

I am located in Boise.  I actually have been up to the WERC too. It was a present for my 18th birthday. However, when we got up there it was midday and there was a girl who was there with Make a Wish, and the pack was sticking close to where she was. I would love going back up there one day. I've considered offering my services as a CVT to various wildlife rescues around the pacific northwest as a chance to work with the animals and just to get to be near them. 

My lifetime goal is still to see a wolf one day out in the wild. From a distance or whatever. I'd just love to see one.  And I will be honest, I would love to own a low content wolfdog one day. Though I have been looking at wolf appearing breeds. That's a one day kind of goal. As it is, I already have to worry about people thinking my dog is a wolf, so it isn't like the vast majority of people know what an actual wolf looks like lol.


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