# Should I be ware of this breeder?



## 148298 (Jul 27, 2013)

I contacted a breeder who had no publicized pricing or contracts which you know is unusual in and of itself. Her defense was this is she prefers one on one transactions (it sounds more like she determines how much she needs to pay the bills). 

I requested prices and she provided a range of prices and a good looking contract. The range of prices for the _same litter_ went from $1800 up to $4000, with higher priced ones being "fit for show and guaranteed over $3000". I have been breeder searching for years until I can find the right one and I actually haven't come across this before. This breeder is fairly reputable, not a first timer at all. This, to me, sounds extremely scandalous. 

Is it?


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

IMO in any business deal if you get get an initial "hinky' and/or uneasy feeling-you're better off trusting your instincts and walking away......for me that goes double when I'm talking the breeder of my next best friend.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Some breeders don't publicize prices preferring to give them out when contacted. It isn't good or bad and should not be a red flag. Some also don't have their contracts posted on their websites. Same thing, not a red flag. 



The pricing difference I have seen before. Probably something that would bother me, but would not rule out a litter that really interests me. 



With that said, if you don't feel comfortable with everything, keep looking.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's unheard for there to be pet and show quality prices within a litter. I can't really comment on the price range listed. Did the breeder show/work and title the parents? Have the parents been tested for DM, and have their hips and elbows been certified? When I was shopping for a WGSL puppy a few years ago, most of the puppy prices I was quoted fell between $2500-$3000.


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

If you don't feel right about it then don't do it.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

With the breeder I implicitly trusted (impeccable reputation but it was more that I knew him from other transactions) I never asked the price until I was picking up the dog. Ironically, he would start telling me about the pedigree and I would just picture $ flying out ..... that was all the pedigree really meant to me ... and I swear I always got a bargain. It always seemed like a bargain. Maybe he gave me special pricing, maybe not but it always felt like a bargain. And I think it always was. I just knew I wanted a pup and I knew he was a good, honest, honorable person.


I miss the man.


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## 148298 (Jul 27, 2013)

middleofnowhere said:


> With the breeder I implicitly trusted (impeccable reputation but it was more that I knew him from other transactions) I never asked the price until I was picking up the dog. Ironically, he would start telling me about the pedigree and I would just picture $ flying out ..... that was all the pedigree really meant to me ... and I swear I always got a bargain. It always seemed like a bargain. Maybe he gave me special pricing, maybe not but it always felt like a bargain. And I think it always was. I just knew I wanted a pup and I knew he was a good, honest, honorable person.
> 
> 
> I miss the man.




I'm sure that is what this breeder might be doing, or attempting to do. They tell you the price when the pup is ready to go home. I suppose that massive price difference in the same litter to me its shocking I see the same product (same lineage and same coat and close temperament) being charged differently on a case by case basis. Yes, the seller has the right to charge Sally Sue $4000 and Billy $2000 for the same looking pup with the same drive but it seems a little... far fetched to me. Especially as if we are saying the $4000 dog is "show quality" and honestly the $2000 dog could be MORE "show quality" as it progresses. We can't deny that!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

It sounds to me like you are uncomfortable with this breeder, question their ability to assess their dogs. A good breeder with significant experience, should be able to access the dogs accurately. Within the same litter, you may have some quite laid-back dogs and some that are total handfuls. You may have one or two that has everything or the entire litter can be tops.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not all dogs respond to the same type of training, Not all people are right for the same breeder. If you don't like his/her style go elsewhere. The worst thing you can do is to purchase a dog from her and then wait and watch for every possible thing that might go wrong. Go elsewhere and both of you will be happier. There are enough pups in the country to find a suitable one with a breeder who is more what you are expecting. 

As for me, sometimes I charge, x and sometimes I charge y, and if the yayhoo on the other end of the line convinces me that I do not want to sell him a puppy, I tell them z and some argue that they can get a pup down the street for a fraction of z. And I think, good, go and get one from there. Because, it is true, that some folks are going to be trouble right out of the gate. And if you think as a buyer dealing with a crappy breeder is tough, think about it from the other end, having a buyer who is crappy. 

I know that's probably not what you want to hear. But all we talk about here are red flags when it comes to looking for a breeder. But what is the possible outcomes if you have a poor breeder. Your puppy comes home sick? You may have a genetic issue? Maybe. You don't get the breeder support you expect? The puppy was not socialized to the extent you wanted before you pick him up? Your puppy is not suitable for fly ball, or schutzhund, or as your next emotional support dog. 

And these are all valid concerns for buyers. The unpopular truth about this is that you actually can get any of the above puppies, even from a great breeder. You may go to the most reputable breeder around that everyone raves about, only to get your puppy three weeks before her kid commits suicide and she goes off the deep end. Or she may drop dead. There are no guarantees. I am not suggesting you go down the street to the dude selling them out of his garage for $400. Of course you want to support the folks you think are doing it right. 

But let's turn it around and look at it from the other end. A breeder may have 9 people lined up for a breeding between two top dogs. And guess what, there's 4 puppies. Whoo hoo, now we have to tell 5 people to get lost, or wait for 6-24 months for another litter to arrive. But let's say we have a nice litter of awesome puppies and are trying to find good homes for them. What are the red flags. You'd be surprised. When the dude on the other end of the line tells me about every dog he has ever owned and how each of them were retarded. Hmmmmm. That's a pretty obvious red flag. There are more subtle red flags too. 

See, what we as breeders are likely to run into are folks who say they intend to do ABC with the dog and they actually are likely to do c. If we give them a pup that can do ABC and they actually do c. with the puppy, the chances are, they are going to need some form of behaviorist to get them out of the mess, or they are going to have to return the puppy. 

Some folks listen to everything and promise to do everything the way you say, and then they do the exact opposite, and then they get mad at you if you can't bail them out fast enough. 

Some folks, ah well, I could go on and on. The thing is, these are tiny creatures that you have whelped and raised and love and you have to make decisions on where they go, and if you are wrong, they can be abused and neglected or just subjected to ignorance that can do just as much damage as abuse and neglect. A healthy price tag might ensure the person has enough money to get the dog to the vet when it needs to go. It is sad to say, but some folks are more caring towards critters they paid a healthy chunk of change for. If the pup was free or cheap, they might dump it at the shelter when they are tired of it, and not bother with things like training classes. If the pup cost a pay check or two. They begin with a different attitude about the puppy. Not everyone, but a lot of folks.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chaybug said:


> I contacted a breeder who had no publicized pricing or contracts which you know is unusual in and of itself. Her defense was this is she prefers one on one transactions (it sounds more like she determines how much she needs to pay the bills).
> 
> I requested prices and she provided a range of prices and a good looking contract. The range of prices for the _same litter_ went from $1800 up to $4000, with higher priced ones being "fit for show and guaranteed over $3000". I have been breeder searching for years until I can find the right one and I actually haven't come across this before. This breeder is fairly reputable, not a first timer at all. This, to me, sounds extremely scandalous.
> 
> Is it?


I have never seen scandalous breeding practices passed to the quality of the pups?*♀. The quality of the pups usually are determined by the genetics of the dogs and knowledge/ethics of the breeder in conformance to the standard. That’s been my experiences. Why not reach out to a long time person in the breed and get an informed opinion on the pups and the prices.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I found that some breeders have price ranges starting at pet quality and is normal. They may want to meet you before they want to sell a pup to you makes sense.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I have seen price differences in show litters before depending on whether the pup is considered show quality or pet quality, not usually more than a few hundred dollars though. And maybe a small discount for faults like an undescended testicle, or back when longcoats were not allowed per the breed standard some people were discounting them a bit vs stock coats in the same litter. I'd be okay with that scenario. 

But FOR ME, there is no reason that two puppies in the same litter would be worth such a huge price difference. That kind multi-tier pricing scheme is an instant turn off. Is one puppy in the litter more than twice as good as another puppy? I don't see how, and would personally look elsewhere.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

My breeder is reputable and she didn’t list the puppy prices online. In fact, I don’t think a contract was online, either. I got the information when I contacted her, spoke with her, and told her what I was looking for. I’ve seen a lot of websites of reputable breeders and most didn’t have prices listed. I wouldn’t find that a red flag. 

However, what turns me off is a different tiered price difference within the same litter. Puppies are a crap shoot. Don’t tell me one puppy is $2000 and one is $2500. I immediately write a breeder like that off my list.


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## mkculs (Jan 24, 2019)

I'm more concerned that you have been looking for a breeder "for years." At some point, you have possibly passed the line between "doing your research" and becoming obsessed with finding . . . God knows what. Maybe you don't get to look at more than 1 litter a year and that's why it is taking you so long to commit. I don't know, but I have seen others stall at reasonable options b/c they are chasing rainbows or are just unrealistic/afraid of making a mistake. I don't know if that is you, but it is worth considering.

Figure out what you want in your dog and find the breeders with consistently ranked dogs in that, over time. If you look at show/competition winners over a 10 year period (for example), you will see certain names crop up--those are people who know what to look for in puppies when the plan is to have them in certain fields. MOST of these folks will be decent breeders to buy from. There is never one "best" at anything (that's a very American notion) and many puppies will satisfy your need. A reputable breeder who will replace a dog that turns out to have a major problem is your only guarantee. 

Take a deep breath and step back from all this looking. It will not make you happier or more satisfied. At some point, you have to fish or cut bait. Good luck.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I have never seen scandalous breeding practices passed to the quality of the pups��*♀. The quality of the pups usually are determined by the genetics of the dogs and knowledge/ethics of the breeder in conformance to the standard. That’s been my experiences. Why not reach out to a long time person in the breed and get an informed opinion on the pups and the prices.



^^^This. Privately send the breeder link to one of the experienced people on here like Lisa or Cliff.

Most breeders don't publicize their prices. Are the genetics good? Is the price fair for the qualities in the puppy that you need?

A range of pricing seems to be common practice in show lines based on what promise they show for the ring. ""fit for show and guaranteed over $3000"" She is guaranteeing these puppies will be show prospects. Puppies are a crap shoot. They can look great at 8 weeks but not grow in to that. I've seen prices up to 5k for show lines. 

Working line breeders tend to charge one price and place the puppies according to what the people are looking for. EX: Your "pet" puppy came from the same litter just different drives as my sport puppy. They aren't worth less than the other because of that. They are both perfect for the homes they go to. Working line prices range from 1800-2500. 

Different mind sets in the culture of show lines to working lines. :smile2:


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## LadySadie (Nov 21, 2018)

My 2 cents, with inflation maybe it's a nickel now  

The relationship you build with a breeder is the foundation for finding the pup that best suits your family. After all, the pup will be an important member your adding and the breeder has him/her for the 1st 8 weeks. I found our breeder by word of mouth, that is, the reputation of the breeder preceded any marketing/website/social media/price checking. After an initial 30-45 phone call, we then met with the breeder for approximately 2 hours. A lot of interaction for questions on both sides. In that visit, we also got to see the pups (at about 5 weeks old). We did not select our girl(then or even at 8 weeks). We left it up to the breeder, using her almost 50 years of experience knowing pups, and knowing our preferences and family life. There was never ever a pricing discussion on this pup versus that pup. I would have found that highly unusual and would have walked. In short, trust your instincts, see what the pervasive theme(s) of responses have been to your post, and make the journey of getting a pup fun. Not a chore.


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## annienrexnangel (Jul 7, 2013)

I have seen this before, generally due to markings, color, and coat length, and bone structure. I went through this process myself less than two years ago and one breeder asked more for one puppy just because it looked the most like its dad. I understand your frustration as well in the search for a puppy, I contacted many myself and found narrowed down to three one was more than the 4000, and the other two were around 1500 each. The breeder that had the 4000+ dog had ranges for her dogs similar to those you described, and she explained why each dog was priced different when I asked, I went with a different breeder who had been doing it for 40 plus years and got a puppy sick with ecoli. I wish I would have went with the breeder with all the pricing variations, she contacted be to make sure I found a dog, none of the other breeders I contacted did.


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