# Puppy only responds to commands in cheerful tone lol...



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

My pup is very obedient when I say commands in a cheerful tone. However, if I am in a bad mood and ask her to do something in a very serious tone or when I shout a command at her, she would come to me and climb herself onto my lap instead of doing what I ask her to do lol... 

Example 1, while calling someone who owed me money for a whole month and was making up excuses, the pup was running around crazily in the house. So I shouted "go kennel" at her, but she ended up coming towards me with her ears dropped and tried to climb onto my lap instead even though she knew "go kennel". Another example, when i tried to teach her to bark on command and was failing, I got frustrated. So I decided to end the training session with easier commands she already mastered, but I guess because of my serious tone, the pup was not even responding to sit, she just came towards me and sat on my feet and then decided to climb onto my legs. 

Not sure if anyone else has experienced this lol and will the dog get over this as she ages? I am sure in a real life situation the tone will be serious. I have never encountered this with my previous dogs, they would do what I say with ears dropped if I sounded angry.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Ears dropped and crawling onto your lap=show of submission.

Your dog is exceptionally handler sensitive and when you are angry, she gets frightened. Better to crate her than scare her.

As for training, we should never train our dogs when we're in foul moods. They know and more sensitive dogs react to it. Take the time to settle down first.

Also, going in her crate should be a happy time, never a punishment. My new puppy has learned to go in his crate, dancing the whole way, at the sound of the magic word: TREATS!


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Yes to what zetti said.

Why are you shouting at her? Shes just a baby. You're scaring your poor pup! She doesn't understand why you are angry. She is trying to appease you by being sweet and submissive! You are setting yourself to appear untrustworthy in the eyes of this pup by being so negative. 

As for real world situations having a serious tone... I've seen that fail dozens of times once you've lost physical control. People calling their dog in a serious tone creating avoidance in the dog. So of course it doesn't come when called.

Your dog is a toddler!!! It's still very much in the learning phase. No need to yell at her. Keep things positive. If you can't then you're in no shape to train that day.


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

Lol I brought this up in a joking manner cause it was funny, but thanks anyway. As I said, as I got frustrated, I decided to end the training session, I asked her to sit before ending because I wanted to end it with a successful command she knew of. And I shouted that day cause I was at the phone dealing with someone and can't get to her. 

And most of the times I am very positive, thus our success in training lol.

I definitely want my dog to obey me under all circumstances, and I think I will start training at a distance with shouting and hand gesture after she masters stay. I posted this cause I never met a dog crawling into lap before it was honestly funny thanks for your time!


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

lonecat said:


> Lol I brought this up in a joking manner cause it was funny, but thanks anyway. As I said, as I got frustrated, I decided to end the training session, I asked her to sit before ending because I wanted to end it with a successful command she knew of. And I shouted that day cause I was at the phone dealing with someone and can't get to her.
> 
> And most of the times I am very positive, thus our success in training lol


If a 3 month old pup came to me with it's ears back and tried to crawl into my lap I would be very upset with myself.
If a dog of any age did that I would be unhappy.


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> If a 3 month old pup came to me with it's ears back and tried to crawl into my lap I would be very upset with myself.
> If a dog of any age did that I would be unhappy.


Maybe you guys are not picturing what my pup was doing lol. Her tails were not between her legs and she also does this when she wants to get on my bed or when she just gets out of crate. It is honestly funny maybe you guys are thinking a different thing.

Also her ears are back when she greets everyone she knows, including cats and she greets everyone happily without fears so I don't know what is the issue you guys are thinking of.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

It's the context. Many young puppies and submissive adults greet owners or other animals that way. 

It's appeasement behavior. It's basically them saying "I see you are so much bigger than me! I want to be your friend! Look how sweet and friendly I am! I'm not a threat. So please don't hurt me"

Your puppy is offering up appeasement behavior when you shout at her or she can tell you are frustrated. Big difference with her doing it in that situation as opposed to a greeting. You've made her nervous.

There is nothing funny about that. It's a clear sign you are not communicating effectively. 

She shouldn't have been running around while you were on the phone. Puppies her age need to be supervised or confined. Since you couldn't give her your undivided attention while on that call she should have been put up. Management is more effective than shoutings. I don't understand why you would be using a firm tone at the end of a training session where you wanted to keep things positive. That seems counter productive to me.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

lonecat said:


> Maybe you guys are not picturing what my pup was doing lol. Her tails were not between her legs and she also does this when she wants to get on my bed or when she just gets out of crate. It is honestly funny maybe you guys are thinking a different thing.
> 
> Also her ears are back when she greets everyone she knows, including cats and she greets everyone happily without fears so I don't know what is the issue you guys are thinking of.


Your puppy thought you were angry with her and was trying to appease you.We just don't find it funny.I've lost my temper before and yelled at my dogs.And then apologize to them,get a grip,and do something nice with them.I felt terrible not mirthful.


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> I don't understand why you would be using a firm tone at the end of a training session where you wanted to keep things positive. That seems counter productive to me.


 I was frustrated, thus the unconscious tone.



dogma13 said:


> Your puppy thought you were angry with her and was trying to appease you.We just don't find it funny.I've lost my temper before and yelled at my dogs.And then apologize to them,get a grip,and do something nice with them.I felt terrible not mirthful.


 IDK if it makes me a bad person that I laughed out loud during both instances. But a 22lb of fur ball trying to be a lap dog is funny to my eyes! None of my previous dog ever do this, so I find this new and interesting, what a soft pup I have.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

lonecat said:


> I was frustrated, thus the unconscious tone.


That's something we always have to be mindful of while training. We learn from our mistakes 



> IDK if it makes me a bad person that I laughed out loud during both instances. But a 22lb of fur ball trying to be a lap dog is funny to my eyes! None of my previous dog ever do this, so I find this new and interesting, what a soft pup I have.


It only makes you a bad person if you still are laughing your butt off about it after understanding the behavior better


----------



## kshadow (Oct 25, 2015)

When I trained my first puppy Oh my did I over do the ''GOOOD boy!'' thing. I was soo soo pround of him listening.
Now my poor Dyson is dealing with a very unemotional trainer/owner 
I also teach him the commands with me in different positions, me standing, sitting on the couch, me facing sideways etc...

I wouldn't be too worried if I were you. Just remember to train when YOU are feeling good. 
If I were you I would go back and teach the commands in a very neutral tone. 

No laughing, ever. 

Dogs have the power to make us feel better if we let them

When we are emotional dogs know it and want to make us feel better. Keep a leash on you so that if you are unable to follow up the command you can leash and MAKE the dog sit.

IMO dogs don't follow commands from angry, annoyed and sad tones. I try not to give commands when I am in that mood. Instead I let my dog come to me and pet them. I always found that not only very helpful for me but dogs want to be close when we aren't feeling good I think they see it as their jobs.Or maybe it reassures them too.

Good luck to you and remember to give commands ONLY when you can follow through.

Take care


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

lonecat said:


> Maybe you guys are not picturing what my pup was doing lol. Her tails were not between her legs and she also does this when she wants to get on my bed or when she just gets out of crate. It is honestly funny maybe you guys are thinking a different thing.
> 
> Also her ears are back when she greets everyone she knows, including cats and she greets everyone happily without fears so I don't know what is the issue you guys are thinking of.


It sounds as if your dog is submissive by nature, if she greets everyone with her ears back and head low. She's trying to make herself look smaller. Tail tucking does not have to be present.

I don't see the humor in scaring dogs.

Your energy should be focused in building up her confidence. Depending on her genetic make up, she may or may not overcome her submissiveness.

Yelling at her is very harmful. She's not a hard dog who can tolerate harsh treatment. She needs positive training techniques.

And too be honest with you, if my dog approached me in a submissive posture, I'd be mortified.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

. And I shouted that day cause I was at the phone dealing with someone and can't get to her.

oh that is so easy -- you say to the person you are speaking to , excuse me I have a situation I have to deal with , I'll be right back - and then you calmly go to the pup and you gather her up and put her into the crate or connect her to a leash so that she isn't running around.

and then you deal with your recalcitrant debtor in a composed , self controlled way and negotiate payment schedule - which if not met will have consequences (legal consequences!)

meanwhile the caller gets a sense that you have control -- have your poop together - 
you are demonstrating how effective you are in dealing with SITUATIONS - might think twice about brushing you off

don't redirect your anger or frustration onto the dog . Or a child , or a SO or family member .

"IMO dogs don't follow commands from angry, annoyed and sad tones"

sure they do . Humans are emotional . Working dogs are at work in SAR- recovery -- disaster , hrd , recovery - there is no way the handler or the entire atmosphere is going to be upbeat and cheerful. The mood is pervasive . 
Working dogs need to perform in tense , emotionally charged , loud , angry, situations if they are in Law Enforcement , millitary work. 
You can be annoyed , agitated , but you aren't going to victimize the dog .

You do not have to be robotic . 

in the examples I gave there is a GOOD , stable, TRUST relationship between handler and dog.

that has to be developed with the OP and the dog.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Your DOG sounds fine!


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Cat, I know you want your puppy to grow up to be a confident German Shepherd. How you treat your puppy now will determine if it is going to be a confident adult. You have a soft puppy, it lacks confidence. Your first puppy was too active, too confident and you had to rehome it because it wasn't a good fit for you. Now you have the opposite, a soft puppy who needs it's confidence built up. This puppy crawls up in your lap when you yell at it and you find that cute. Will it still be cute when it's full grown? Unless you are positive and stay calm you are going to create a fearful dog. I don't think that's what you want. A puppy need consistency and calm, loving praise. Laughter should be for when you are playing together, doing positive things. If you are busy, put the puppy up. Don't set up the puppy for failure by leaving it out when you are busy. Work on building trust between you and the puppy. Without trust there is no relationship between you and the puppy. Be consistent, lack of consistency confuses your puppy. Every time the puppy does something, think if you would like that in your full grown shepherd. Ask yourself why the puppy is doing it and fix what you are doing to cause it. Best of luck and keep us updated.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok so which puppy was the one Lonecat had during the Puppy Talking Back thread. I just skimmed that one and this issue was there too, yelling at pup, pup coming in with appeasement behaviors as you were going to grab it.

I think maybe you are being too loud/harsh with these (this)? Pup. That doesn't mean no discipline, no boundaries, it just means that the way you mark unwanted behavior and how you deal with it needs to be different. 

Say you have an overtired puppy having a tantrum. You can either yell at it and storm over to grab it and be met with a submissive scared pup, or you can say "too much, time out", quietly calmly go get your pup without any aggressive body language and escort the pup to nap time.


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

Hmmm, firstly let me clarify I fully expect myself to get frustrated and angry and lose temper despite trying to stay clear-headed in the future --- I expect it to happen many times! I don't think it is possible to always keep my cool, so my goal is to make the dog trust me enough that she listens to my commands even when I am scary. 

Regarding correction strength I will talk to my trainer about that. My goal with "no" is to remind the dog what they are doing is unacceptable and if they don't stop, another more serious correction is going to follow. A firm, loud no is my first level of correction and it is originally followed by timeout and collar shake/down-stay forced by stepping on leash. But collar shake was too much for my pup (she screamed) so I ditched that and now the real corrections are only down-stay and timeout. Now thinking about it, maybe my commands in serious tone sound like "no" to her, maybe that is why she reacts to that "go kennel" and "sit" with submissive gestures. I will ask my trainer about that, lol my previous pup does not even respond to collar shake so that is a big shift. By the way, what kind of corrections do you use when outside or in someone else's home? I am looking for options to that as I begin taking my pup on short walks where there are no dogs. I use leash snap with my previous pup but I think this is too much for my current pup.

Lastly, I don't mind my dog climbs onto me to appease/comfort me when I am in distress even when she becomes an adult! But of course I need to make sure my commands come before everything.

p.s. Carmspack, regarding that phone call, that person only responds to me after me messaging her mom on FB to let her mom know that I will be coming to their house to deliver the court claim and someone needs to be home. She disappears on me even after I filed the claim! And yes yes I should not take it on the dog with shouting, but I am not perfect and it happens. When someone is in distress, those around him/her is bound to suffer somewhat as well and I think that is something we agree to when being born as living beings. As long as I don't do irreparable damage I am fine with that. Same with the dog, if she has problems that affect me, I won't like it but will help her deal with that, as long as the problems are within my capacity. This is exactly why I want a dog instead of my pet irobot who listen perfectly and can even help with house work lol!


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Cat,
Commands should be given in a calm authoritative voice, it should be totally different than a correction. If you are using the right command voice then it is the same voice you would use no matter where you are. If your trainer is telling you to give a collar shake followed by an enforced down you need a new trainer. Full Period Stop. 
Crawling up into your lap to console you is totally different than her crawling up appeasingly into your lap because she is afraid. Do you want her afraid of you? Because if you keep doing what you're doing you will not have a confident adult dog and she won't be at all the dog you expect her to be. If you have that much trouble with anger management, then perhaps a dog isn't right for you. She will not learn to listen to you when you are yelling at her in anger. At worst, you may eventually be bitten by her. I disagree that others should have to live in fear that they are going to be the brunt of someone else's anger, be it a person or an animal. I don't think you are going to find anyone who will agree with you on that.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Maybe you should stick to robots.You are using a down/stay command as a punishment?The dog is doing as you asked and should be praised not derided.Way too confusing.Please rethink things logically.This is beginning to sound abusive.


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

Well I don't know about you Deb, but everyone I know of closely has lost their temper and hurting their friends at least every once in a while I thought it was something about being human lol. I don't know anyone who has never shouted at a friend/family, if such a person exits, it is definitely beyond my capacity. We have a difference in opinion regarding that so let's not waste time arguing, I think we agree that what is the most important is to work on problems at hand. Maybe suggest some corrections that are milder? Thanks!


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> Maybe you should stick to robots.You are using a down/stay command as a punishment?The dog is doing as you asked and should be praised not derided.Way too confusing.Please rethink things logically.This is beginning to sound abusive.


lol I use a down-stay when the dog refuses to stop their misbehaviours with a no and I enforce that by stepping on the leash, and I do praise her after she complies! I can try reporting myself and see if animal workers will go arrest me, in fact I just adopted a cat from shelter recently 

I think down-stay when the dog goes crazy has similar effects on asking the dog to sit when she jumps up!


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I think I may have missed how old the puppy is.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

lonecat said:


> Hmmm, firstly let me clarify I fully expect myself to get frustrated and angry and lose temper despite trying to stay clear-headed in the future --- I expect it to happen many times! I don't think it is possible to always keep my cool, so my goal is to make the dog trust me enough that she listens to my commands even when I am scary.


It's one thing to have a bad day, slip up, and both you and the pup move on and get over it. But to actually expect it will happen and require a puppy to deal with you because you can't keep your cool is in no way fair to this puppy. Self fulfilling prophecy.

What you are doing is also a really crappy way to establish that trust you desire.



> Regarding correction strength I will talk to my trainer about that. My goal with "no" is to remind the dog what they are doing is unacceptable and if they don't stop, another more serious correction is going to follow. A firm, loud no is my first level of correction and it is originally followed by timeout and collar shake/down-stay forced by stepping on leash. But collar shake was too much for my pup (she screamed) so I ditched that and now the real corrections are only down-stay and timeout. Now thinking about it, maybe my commands in serious tone sound like "no" to her, maybe that is why she reacts to that "go kennel" and "sit" with submissive gestures. I will ask my trainer about that, lol my previous pup does not even respond to collar shake so that is a big shift. By the way, what kind of corrections do you use when outside or in someone else's home? I am looking for options to that as I begin taking my pup on short walks where there are no dogs. I use leash snap with my previous pup but I think this is too much for my current pup.


I'm a little shocked that pup would do anything that requires you to grab the collar shake the thing. I'm very glad you abandoned that course of action!

To be honest I very rarely correct a puppy under 6 mos beyond a simple firm no for misbehavior and never for failure to comply with a command. I am a firm believer in redirection and proofing. If I ask my 4 month old puppy to sit and he doesn't do it then I assume the mistake is 100% on me. That I pushed for two much and didn't proof well enough with the 3 Ds - Distance, Distraction, or Duration. I can't bring myself to do leash corrections on what is developmentally a toddler, when they still don't fully have the basics down (and basics aren't fully down until many many hours of practice with the 3 Ds)



> Lastly, I don't mind my dog climbs onto me to appease/comfort me when I am in distress even when she becomes an adult! But of course I need to make sure my commands come before everything.


Once again, huge difference between the dog doing it because you're upset you broke up with your boyfriend and her doing it because you've frightened her 



> p.s. Carmspack, regarding that phone call, that person only responds to me after me messaging her mom on FB to let her mom know that I will be coming to their house to deliver the court claim and someone needs to be home. She disappears on me even after I filed the claim! And yes yes I should not take it on the dog with shouting, but I am not perfect and it happens. When someone is in distress, those around him/her is bound to suffer somewhat as well and I think that is something we agree to when being born as living beings. As long as I don't do irreparable damage I am fine with that.


I agree with Deb's comments about this. 




> Same with the dog, if she has problems that affect me, I won't like it but will help her deal with that, as long as the problems are within my capacity.


This is why I think a lot of us are concerned and are saying stuff. We aren't trying to pick on you - but from out view point you've already given up on one GSD puppy. We see you making mistakes with this one and just want what's best for you both



> This is exactly why I want a dog instead of my pet irobot who listen perfectly and can even help with house work lol!


Something to think about then... you may be creating exactly what you don't want - a robo dog - by having such a strict regime of training, such severe expectations, and such a heavy hand with corrections.

I've raised and lot of dogs, and to be honest, each go around I am finding less is more when it comes to training puppies. Giving my pups the time to explore the world without the restraint of having to be perfectly obedient, to spend more time cuddling and playing than teaching positions, to encourage problem solving, to redirect instead of shut down natural behaviors has rewarded me with much deeper bonds and a more joyful companion. And actually in the end - a better dog. By the time they grow up a bit they've have such confidence and trust in me, that they are simply joys to work and live with. 

I've competed in a few dog sports and have seen a lot of robo dogs. Dogs that don't think or do unless they are told. Dogs that have lost their essence. Dogs that have had their souls trained out of them.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

dogfaeries said:


> I think I may have missed how old the puppy is.


They were referring to it as their 10 week old puppy just before new years. So in the 11 - 12 week range is my guess.


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

dogfaeries said:


> I think I may have missed how old the puppy is.


She is just over 3 months.



voodoolamb said:


> It's one thing to have a bad day, slip up, and both you and the pup move on and get over it. But to actually expect it will happen and require a puppy to deal with you because you can't keep your cool is in no way fair to this puppy. Self fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> This is why I think a lot of us are concerned and are saying stuff. We aren't trying to pick on you - but from out view point you've already given up on one GSD puppy. We see you making mistakes with this one and just want what's best for you both
> 
> I've raised and lot of dogs, and to be honest, each go around I am finding less is more when it comes to training puppies. Giving my pups the time to explore the world without the restraint of having to be perfectly obedient, to spend more time cuddling and playing than teaching positions, to encourage problem solving, to redirect instead of shut down natural behaviors has rewarded me with much deeper bonds and a more joyful companion. And actually in the end - a better dog. By the time they grow up a bit they've have such confidence and trust in me, that they are simply joys to work and live with.


Regarding first paragraph...it is going to happen probability wise, so I expect it is going to happen and hope the pup can listen with stern tone. My previous dogs can do that so I am confident and will gradually change my tone (I pay attention to use cheerful voice in training for now to keep the pup interest4ed)! 

Regarding second paragraph...as I said that pup's inborn temperament and activity level do not suit me as I did no research and bought from a backyard breeder, that is why I did my research and found my current pup and I am happy with her progress. And the previous pup was rehomed to a good home who had little money but lots of action going on. Well next time I will remember not to post something that I find funny about the dog, my friends do say my humour is weird 

Regarding third paragraph...tbh I don't like this philosophy of this happy-go-lucky altitude. It may work for some people, but I believe in punishment and rewards and efficiency and result. There will definitely be goofy play but that is only a reward for good behaviours and not something that she just gets. So far the method works really well and the pup is a joy to live with. But I will keep your opinions in mind and observe further, thanks for your point of view!


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

lonecat said:


> lol I use a down-stay when the dog refuses to stop their misbehaviours with a no and I enforce that by stepping on the leash, and I do praise her after she complies! I can try reporting myself and see if animal workers will go arrest me, in fact I just adopted a cat from shelter recently
> 
> I think down-stay when the dog goes crazy has similar effects on asking the dog to sit when she jumps up!


With your pup's age a time out in a crate would be a much better course of action. You are creating a negative association with the command.

Puppies misbehave for a reason. What are you doing to identify the cause for the misbehaviors? 

I have found redirection to be superior than out right attempting to squash natural behaviors. Squashing it creates those robodogs.

Example: The puppy is chewing on the area rug because chewing is a soothing activity. Out right stopping it is difficult and unfair. You aren't letting the dog be a dog. Saying no, then redirecting to an appropriate chew toy works much better imo.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

lonecat said:


> Well I don't know about you Deb, but everyone I know of closely has lost their temper and hurting their friends at least every once in a while I thought it was something about being human lol. I don't know anyone who has never shouted at a friend/family, if such a person exits, it is definitely beyond my capacity. We have a difference in opinion regarding that so let's not waste time arguing, I think we agree that what is the most important is to work on problems at hand. Maybe suggest some corrections that are milder? Thanks!



Cat,
No, I have never redirected my anger onto someone else. And I've only ever known one person that did it. I cut him off. If the puppy doesn't stop the behavior at no, redirect her. Calmly take her by the collar and lead her to a different place and engage her in something else, be it some simple things she knows like sit and down or with a toy. Then remove what she was into if that is possible. If you feel you are too upset to do that, then calmly put her in her crate. If you know she isn't going to listen then just go over to her and remove her from the situation calmly. I understand you think loosing your temper is acceptable and she will get used to it, but she won't. She isn't a person, she doesn't understand the words, only the emotion. Set up an expen or puppy pen if you don't want to put her in her crate so she has a safe area to play in where she can't get in trouble. This also gives you a fun place to put her if you are going to be too busy to be able to appropriately supervise her. If you're feeling out of sorts, let her play in her pen until you are able to control your emotions. It sounds like you're an emotional person, just be aware of it and remember the puppy only understands emotion, not the cause of it or that it's not directed at them. For a puppy, all emotion is directed at them. That's all they can comprehend. The main thing is, when you are angry at her or anyone else, separate her to somewhere else until you are able to smile and be happy with her again. For her to build a bond and trust and respect you, she has to not be afraid of you or your emotions. Who do you trust more, someone who is always calm with you or someone who yells at you because they're mad at someone else? Who would you rather spend time with? Who makes you feel safe?


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Example: The puppy is chewing on the area rug because chewing is a soothing activity. Out right stopping it is difficult and unfair. You aren't letting the dog be a dog. Saying no, then redirecting to an appropriate chew toy works much better imo.


For example, with chewing. I stop her with a no and redirect her to a toy. And I want to move on to level 2 correction if she goes back to chewing what she has been chewing initially. So my goal with chewing and no is that she should stop chewing but she knows there are items around that she can chew and she should go to them instead. 

I agree with redirection, but I want to train out a verbal command that makes her go "crap this is the wrong thing i am doing, I better stop now and move on stuff that are ok".

Thanks for the advice though, do you have any recommendations for corrections/redirection while outside?



Deb said:


> Cat,
> No, I have never redirected my anger onto someone else. And I've only ever known one person that did it. I cut him off. If the puppy doesn't stop the behavior at no, redirect her. Calmly take her by the collar and lead her to a different place and engage her in something else, be it some simple things she knows like sit and down or with a toy. Then remove what she was into if that is possible. If you feel you are too upset to do that, then calmly put her in her crate. If you know she isn't going to listen then just go over to her and remove her from the situation calmly. I understand you think loosing your temper is acceptable and she will get used to it, but she won't. She isn't a person, she doesn't understand the words, only the emotion. Set up an expen or puppy pen if you don't want to put her in her crate so she has a safe area to play in where she can't get in trouble. This also gives you a fun place to put her if you are going to be too busy to be able to appropriately supervise her. If you're feeling out of sorts, let her play in her pen until you are able to control your emotions. It sounds like you're an emotional person, just be aware of it and remember the puppy only understands emotion, not the cause of it or that it's not directed at them. For a puppy, all emotion is directed at them. That's all they can comprehend. The main thing is, when you are angry at her or anyone else, separate her to somewhere else until you are able to smile and be happy with her again. For her to build a bond and trust and respect you, she has to not be afraid of you or your emotions. Who do you trust more, someone who is always calm with you or someone who yells at you because they're mad at someone else? Who would you rather spend time with? Who makes you feel safe?


If you really have never done so even unconsciously then I really respect you as a person, that is lots of self control! For example, I don't consciously say in a serious tone "sit" but it comes off that way due to frustration. I really don't think these sorts of stuff are a big deal at least to humans, but I sure will be more cautious around my sensitive pup! Thanks I trust someone that I think will help me and is able to help me when I need it, that is it. Some people are just pure calm, some are crazy, but I don't care as long as I believe they won't really hurt me. Honestly judging from the seriousness you guys take this matter, I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I am not a native english speaker and just learned english in the last several years maybe that caused my accounts to sound very dramatic? 

Thanks for the advice though, do you have any recommendations for corrections/redirection while being outside?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I will totally admit to losing my temper with my dogs. Sometimes that means I turn my back, walk out of the room, breathe and do WHATEVER it takes not to blow my lid and be unfair, abusive, or frighten my dogs. 

It depends on the dogs too. My female is such a brat when I have toys. Sometimes I yell at her to knock it off, but she is like a beast and she barely registers it and it does NOTHING distress her. My boy is like your dog, kind of soft and submissive by nature and I have to be gentler with him and I am. He is also gentler with me so it's easy.

I have yelled at my dogs. When they were teenaged and adults and being rambunctious idiots. They are not scarred. I NEVER physically corrected my puppy and I can't imagine making a puppy scream in fear. Since you did that to her, she is going to be more sensitive to your temper or corrections because of that. That is way overkill. And if your trainer has met your puppy and suggested you do that, fire your trainer.

I know a lady who has a couple of chessies. She is pretty gruff, hollering at these dogs, yanking them around, they are unfazed. There are dogs who can take that stuff and dogs who can't. My boy definitely can't, sounds like your pup can't either.

I think dogs are totally fine when their people are usually fair and compassionate and occasionally lose their temper in a normal non abusive way....the dog will be fine. Dogs lose their temper with each other and eveRhone moves on.

You HAVE to consider age. Would you scream at a toddler for wetting their pants? At all costs, no you wouldnt. and you can't afford to be so harsh with a submissive little puppy who is doing her best


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I NEVER physically corrected my puppy and I can't imagine making a puppy scream in fear. Since you did that to her, she is going to be more sensitive to your temper or corrections because of that. That is way overkill. And if your trainer has met your puppy and suggested you do that, fire your trainer.


Hey thanks, how do you think of forced down-stay by stepping on leash when the dog misbehaves and is not responding to "no" outside? My pup would struggle in the first 10 seconds then settle down pretty well until I free her. I don't have any other correction in mind other than that and timeout, and I can't use timeout outside... And yes I regret giving her the collar shake, it was supposed to be level 2 correction after "no" but before timeout as my previous pup and first dog barely responded to it, but it caused her to scream and struggle --- a big surprise. Also what about giving the knee when the dog jumps?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I only used physical force in one instance when my pup was that age: if I was putting him in crate and he didnt want t go sometimes he wouod try to back out of his collar to duck or squirm out at the last second. In that case I basically made myself a wall so he had nowhere to go but forward into his crate. So in essence I did "force" him in but not in the sense of grabbing and pushing or throwing ect I just made it so that he had nowhere else to go but in.

You asked what about a forced down stay outside when the pup did not respond to "no". No for what? 

Here is the big thing: your pup may or may not totally understand what no means but lets assume she does. Assume she stops the unwanted behavior for a moment. Her little pea puppy brain probably isn't going to immediately go "hey, I know, I will do this instead because it is a good thing".

Your job is to create desired behaviors so you can reward them. And the more your pup does right the more she gets rewarded and happier and more confident she gets.

So I can't say what I think of the down stay after no until you say what the no was for. Are you teaching her leave it? You can get pretty far with leave it with only food and no corrections and it is an awesome tool to have in your toolbox

I have not had good ouck with knee in the chest for jumping. I prefer to walk straight into the do so they start to lose their balance and go to put their feet down to get their balance. Your pup is probably also sensitive to spatial pressure so walking toward her may discourage some jumping that way too.

My advice is, focus on what you want this pup TO do, and reward reward reward.

She is in front of you and you know she can last 5 seconds before she jumps up, get down and reward her for being down at second #3


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

lonecat said:


> Well I don't know about you Deb, but everyone I know of closely has lost their temper and hurting their friends at least every once in a while I thought it was something about being human lol. I don't know anyone who has never shouted at a friend/family, if such a person exits, it is definitely beyond my capacity. We have a difference in opinion regarding that so let's not waste time arguing, I think we agree that what is the most important is to work on problems at hand. Maybe suggest some corrections that are milder? Thanks!


No, they don't. If I get upset with my dogs, I look at what I have done to allow them to do it in the first place. I am upset with myself. I never ever scream or lose my temper with my dogs. By the time you have finished berating them they have no idea what you are upset about. It will damage all the good you are trying to do. If you can't avoid it, maybe you should not have a dog.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Corrections for what type of behavior while outside? 

Also... kneeing a jumping dog thing... not a great idea because of the front end anatomy. If your knee happens to go into the dogs "arm pit" area you can cause injury to the brachial plexus nerve. Any sudden pulling of the limb outwards and away from the body can do it. Catching the leg, grabbing the dog wrong, even the dog slipping on a tile floor.

It's a nasty injury with a very long recovery time. The worst cases require amputation of the limb.






Probably a million in one shot of it actually happening. My old vet would scold people for doing it. There are other options to prevent jumping or correct the behavior, so it's not worth the risk IMHO


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"I fully expect myself to get frustrated and angry and lose temper despite trying to stay clear-headed in the future --- I expect it to happen many times"

adding Deb's comment " If you have that much trouble with anger management, then perhaps a dog isn't right for you"

You are telegraphing that you do not have control. No self control so how can you expect to control a situation, a direction or outcome.

Sounds like you have a tennant ? Well do not make it personal. This is a professional and legal contract . IF you are overwhelmed with a particular tenant then hire a property manager whose services include finding and removing tenants and collecting rent . 

In the meantime collect the renter's social media broadcasts of trying to avoid payment . This will cut mediation short and get you that enforceable eviction notice backed by the sheriff's office.

keep it professional.

all behaviour has consequences . 

lonecat " I can try reporting myself and see if animal workers will go arrest me,"

what the heck is that ?!?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

lonecat said:


> ... so my goal is to make the dog trust me enough that she listens to my commands even when I am scary.


The way you describe her, you have a soft dog. Keep doing things your way and you will destroy any bond and all trust. 



lonecat said:


> lol I use a down-stay when the dog refuses to stop their misbehaviours with a no and I enforce that by stepping on the leash, and I do praise her after she complies!


Please stop doing this. This is a baby dog that has only been in this world for a mere 90 days, plus or minus a few. Please please please stop treating her like a bug to be squashed under your foot. She is your little buddy, someday she will be your best friend. Treat her with love and kindness.



voodoolamb said:


> I've raised and lot of dogs, and to be honest, each go around I am finding less is more when it comes to training puppies. Giving my pups the time to explore the world without the restraint of having to be perfectly obedient, to spend more time cuddling and playing than teaching positions, to encourage problem solving, to redirect instead of shut down natural behaviors has rewarded me with much deeper bonds and a more joyful companion. And actually in the end - a better dog. By the time they grow up a bit they've have such confidence and trust in me, that they are simply joys to work and live with.


OP, this is probably the best piece of advice anybody is ever going to give you on raising your dog to be confident, intelligent, loving, protective, stable, loyal, and full of life and love. You owe it to the both of you to let her develop to her fullest potential.



lonecat said:


> Regarding third paragraph...tbh I don't like this philosophy of this happy-go-lucky altitude. It may work for some people, but I believe in punishment and rewards and efficiency and result. There will definitely be goofy play but that is only a reward for good behaviours and not something that she just gets. So far the method works really well and the pup is a joy to live with. But I will keep your opinions in mind and observe further, thanks for your point of view!


She might be a joy for you to live with, but are you a joy for her to live with? Where is the fun, the love, the bond, the trust... all the things that create a good life for her?


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> I've raised and lot of dogs, and to be honest, each go around I am finding less is more when it comes to training puppies. Giving my pups the time to explore the world without the restraint of having to be perfectly obedient, to spend more time cuddling and playing than teaching positions, to encourage problem solving, to redirect instead of shut down natural behaviors has rewarded me with much deeper bonds and a more joyful companion. And actually in the end - a better dog. By the time they grow up a bit they've have such confidence and trust in me, that they are simply joys to work and live with.


I just to clarify about this, so as not to give the wrong impression. It's not about having a happy go luck attitude and having an untrained dog. Not at all. 

Here's the thing. All mammals LEARN THROUGH PLAY. Rats, goats, kittens, bear cubs, kanagroos, even human kids. Puppies do too. Play in it essence is practice for adult hood. I spend much of puppy hood placing a foundation for the type of dog I want as an adult. 

I want my dog to be reliable off leash. So I keep rewards both food and toys with me when I take the puppy out. I let him explore and when he comes to check in with me which is a natural puppy instinct and I reward him like crazy with lots of play. This happens dozens of times a day. The result is I have an adult dog that naturally keeps me in his site and will come check in with me when off leash. 

I want my dog to run to me so fast that his legs might fall off when I recall him. So as a puppy we play fetch. After he starts bringing the ball back to me I turn and RUN the opposite direction activating his "play chase instinct" I keep a second toy on me and when he "catches" me - we play another game. It becomes conditioned that running to his person is the best thing in the world! Because there is nothing a puppy loves more than play. 

Even if you enjoy teaching positional commands - those can all become games too. That's why I personally like clicker training. It's FUN. 

Every pup that I worked on building these fundamentals with through play have all had MUCH MUCH more reliable obedience as adults than the puppies I pushed into sits and corrected for failure to perform. I've also experienced much better bonds with the pups I've raised this way.

It all comes together in the end. I raised my gsd pup this way and now he is a very well behaved adult that does obedience routines with gusto, that I can 100% trust off lead. We have an incredibly deep bond.

I think there is much to be said for allowing the dog to emotionally and mentally mature and bit before expecting them to do long down stays and precision obedience. Especially out and about under distraction.

There is no rush to have a puppy know 2 dozen commands. Puppy misbehavior is so easily managed, there is no need to rush training with use of heavy handed corrections.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Cat,
You need to get rid of these levels of correction and concentrate on the puppy instead. Have fun with her, encourage her to explore the house and the outside. If she makes a mistake, then she makes a mistake. Don't expect perfection and especially from a puppy. Don't worry about how to correct every little thing she does. She is a baby now and wants to please you. Soon she'll be a preteen and start to misbehave because she's overeager about things, the 'who me?' stage. Then she'll be a teen and be rebellious, deliberately disobeying, testing you on if you'll be consistent. It will take patience and calmness from you to get through these stages to get to the adult dog you want. And she will go through them. I think you're concentrating too much on how to fix things, how to correct her instead of enjoying the best age of puppyhood. Redirect her to something else when she does something you don't want, give her something else and praise her for it. Concentrate on enjoying her.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This thread is very disturbing to me on many levels, frankly it would be if this was an adult dog, but for three month puppy.....smh. 
Good luck in the future!


----------



## kshadow (Oct 25, 2015)

When reading the OP's original thread I don't think it is as bad as posts are making it seem.
Is there a chance that the OP did not know about the submissiveness body language of the pup? Having a pup is a journey and making mistakes is part of it. This forum is filled with questions from owners who are looking for advice. The OP came for advice and being treated this way is not going to make the OP come back for more advice in the future. 
Dog body language is not something we know without looking into it. Raising our first puppy and raising our 4th is very different. I do not know if this is the OP's 1st or fourth. All I know is that as human beings we make mistakes and I find that the OP is being treated as if had beat the dog. I personally , as a human being lost patience and told my kids to be quiet while I was dealing with something else. It's only human and those who say otherwise are not being honest.
To the OP: You have a very submissive puppy. If you read between the lines some great advice has been given to you in the posts. Now knowing more about your puppy's body language makes you more aware of the situation.
With this information you can now build confidence in your pup and raise it to be an amazing dog.
My every word from this reply will probably be scrutinized word forword and my words exagerated and turned into a totally different meaning.
But You have a young pup and was asking for advice and I don't want you to hesitate to come back for advice in the future.


----------



## kshadow (Oct 25, 2015)

kshadow said:


> When reading the OP's original thread I don't think it is as bad as posts are making it seem.
> Is there a chance that the OP did not know about the submissiveness body language of the pup? Having a pup is a journey and making mistakes is part of it. This forum is filled with questions from owners who are looking for advice. The OP came for advice and being treated this way is not going to make the OP come back for more advice in the future.
> Dog body language is not something we know without looking into it. Raising our first puppy and raising our 4th is very different. I do not know if this is the OP's 1st or fourth. All I know is that as human beings we make mistakes and I find that the OP is being treated as if had beat the dog. I personally , as a human being lost patience and told my kids to be quiet while I was dealing with something else. It's only human and those who say otherwise are not being honest.
> To the OP: You have a very submissive puppy. If you read between the lines some great advice has been given to you in the posts. Now knowing more about your puppy's body language makes you more aware of the situation.
> ...


To ALL :smile2:
I will do background research BERFOR next time. My BAD! Maybe there is a reason why the views have been so hard towards the OP's post.


----------



## kshadow (Oct 25, 2015)

kshadow said:


> To ALL :smile2:
> I will do background research BERFOR next time. My BAD! Maybe there is a reason why the views have been so hard towards the OP's post.


I still wish the OP the best of luck with the Puppy! :smile2:


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

wow, wow, ok. I don't get where all the anger comes from. And it is not a tenant, I trusted someone when she did not have money and I lent her money and she promised to return me the money in one week after she got paid... I filed for court and asked her to be home for me to deliver court claim, but she did not respond... I don't want to travel to an empty house for nothing that is why I find her mom on social media and ask her to be home... lol it seems to me that some of you guys just assume things.

And no, I don't think the corrections damage our bonds, she is honestly very affectionate with me and she focuses on me very well during group obedience class. In fact, even when she plays with other puppies, she would often go back to me and want me pet her No corrections for a puppy, are you really serious? lol, you at least do timeout for crazy biting don't ya?

All I am saying is that we humans are not perfect. We make mistakes and lose control and encounter problems in life and like it or not those around us will be affected, and it is ridiculous to expect we will never get angry and lose temper. Family and friends are family and friends because we affect each other both positively and negatively. I trust myself that I have a more positive effect overall so I am good.

All in all I don't think I fit with this forum's atmosphere well as this forum seems to be filled with superhumans who never lose temper to the point of using angry voice and who start to people's character because of their assumptions and limited anectodes. And carmspack, I am a software engineer!!! I will continue asking questions though as I love my pup and I am looking into doing competition with her for fun and I am new to raw feeding, so sorry about my "disturbing" presence in the future lol. I will no longer post anything beside technical question as I don't want to have a debate going on that takes forever to read! And I still think the pup climbing onto my lap is a funny thing to watch, sorry I can't change about that even if that makes me a bad person. Maybe it is submissive, but I really don't think she fears me

And thanks "Thecowboysgirl", I was hoping no can be a command that stops the dog from doing whatever they are doing immediately and do something they know they can do but it seems like it is too optimistic I think I will go back to teaching off and leave it. And hey "voodoolamb", I use clicker as well! And I trained my recall by having the pup chasing me, but tbh I don't enjoy playing with her so that is only for training. 

Anyway, all in all good day and let's stop this, this debate is a waste of time!


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

lonecat said:


> but tbh I don't enjoy playing with her so that is only for training.


:surprise:


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

voodoolamb said:


> :surprise:


So informative. That was my reaction too.


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> :surprise:





LuvShepherds said:


> So informative. That was my reaction too.


I don't enjoy playing without a goal in general, not targeted towards the dog


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

lonecat said:


> I don't enjoy playing without a goal in general, not targeted towards the dog


Do you think that's why the last puppy didn't work out and this one seems to be going down the same path?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

lonecat said:


> I don't enjoy playing without a goal in general, not targeted towards the dog


What kind of goal? Do you mean ever time you work with your dog it's for training? What about exercise?


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Do you think that's why the last puppy didn't work out and this one seems to be going down the same path?


Nope, the two pups are very different. My previous pup had a dominant temperament and have high energy level with low distraction threshold and trainer suspects nervous issues and I bought her from a breeder where she was kept in kennel with feces because that breeder was the only one with white shepherd in my area. This pup I have now is bred to be low energy level, and she is submissive and has excellent attention and comes from hours of driving away from my home. My first dog worked well remember lol, the second dog was just too active for me. She either needed drugs or 2+ hours of strenuous exercises to calm down at age 4 months at which point I rehomed her. My current pup is 3 months and she does not have any problems I have with my former pup when she was 3 months. And this pup is working out, where do you get the idea that she is not working out lol? 



LuvShepherds said:


> What kind of goal? Do you mean ever time you work with your dog it's for training? What about exercise?


I enjoy hiking and I do distance running, this pup is going to be on the smaller side as well which is good for distance running. And yes, every time I will work with my dog it is for training. I want to do competition because being good at a sport can be an interesting goal for me while it can intelligently stimulate my dog.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

lonecat said:


> Nope, the two pups are very different. My previous pup had a dominant temperament and have high energy level with low distraction threshold and trainer suspects nervous issues and I bought her from a breeder where she was kept in kennel with feces because that breeder was the only one with white shepherd in my area. This pup I have now is bred to be low energy level, and she is submissive and has excellent attention and comes from hours of driving away from my home. My first dog worked well remember lol, the second dog was just too active for me. She either needed drugs or 2+ hours of strenuous exercises to calm down at age 4 months at which point I rehomed her. My current pup is 3 months and she does not have any problems I have with my former pup when she was 3 months.


That's not why I asked the question. Do you think not playing without a goal is why you are having issues? Your last dog had issues, now this dog had issues. Last one was not for you, this one is afraid of you for raising your voice. Maybe being so young, and having so many demands like the itinerary you wrote hasn't allowed a natural bond to grow. Sometimes our demands get in the way of the demands of a puppy.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

1.Frightened puppies are funny
2.All interactions are training exercises
3.No playtime simply for fun (1.=fun)

Just sounds so sad.


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> That's not why I asked the question. Do you think not playing without a goal is why you are having issues? Your last dog had issues, now this dog had issues. Last one was not for you, this one is afraid of you for raising your voice. Maybe being so young, and having so many demands like the itinerary you wrote hasn't allowed a natural bond to grow. Sometimes our demands get in the way of the demands of a puppy.


I don't know tbh. I believe in science and classical conditioning with animals thus the training. If reliable research using scientific methods from various reliable institutes shows that a dog can not be happy without random playing with owner than I sure won't own a dog. I have no problems taking the dog to classes to play or to dog parks to play with other dogs or take her hiking, swimming etc., but just plain playing is repetitive and boring to me...and I admit patience is definitely not my strong suit unless it is for something I am very interested in.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You can't micromanage a puppy and end up with a well adjusted adult dog. Dogs need to play just to play. They need to run just to run. A pet dog that is expected to be so goal oriented at such a young age is going to grow up with all kinds of problems. Can you allow yourself to relax and enjoy your dog?


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

lonecat said:


> I don't know tbh. I believe in science and classical conditioning with animals thus the training. If reliable research using scientific methods from various reliable institutes shows that a dog can not be happy without random playing with owner than I sure won't own a dog. I have no problems taking the dog to classes to play or to dog parks to play with other dogs or take her hiking, swimming etc., but just plain playing is repetitive and boring to me...and I admit patience is definitely not my strong suit unless it is for something I am very interested in.


It's so hard to imagine not feeling absolutely delighted just watching while a puppy runs around discovering the world.They are just so cute chasing a grasshopper,figuring out how to play in a sprinkler,how to get untangled from the towel you dropped over them,etc!


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Unfortunately there are not dozens of peer reviewed scientific studies on dogs playing There never will be - just no money there. However there are a few. I HIGHLY suggest you read this study:

Affiliative and disciplinary behavior of human handlers during play with their dog affects cortisol concentrations in opposite directions

Some insights from it:

"We studied dogs' behavior and the changes of cortisol concentrations in a play situation, where the dogs played with their handler for 3 min with a tug toy. In this experiment working dogs were divided into two groups by the type of their work, namely police dogs and border guard dogs. We found that the cortisol concentrations of old police dogs significantly increased, while the adult border guard dogs' hormone levels decreased, which shows that playing with the handler has an effect on both groups, but interestingly this effect was opposite"

" Behavior analysis showed differences only in the behavior of the human handlers during the play sessions...During the play sessions police officers were mainly disciplining their dogs, while the border guards were truly playing with them (including affiliative and affectionate behavior)."

Play with a heavy slant towards discipline instead of just for fun increases stress hormones in the dog. Not good for health and well being. Affiliative and affectionate play, play just for plays sake, lowered cortisol leves. Great for overall health and well being. 

Then there's a whole bunch about play in mammals in general which are worth a read

ETA: This one is good too

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376635714002289

"We suggest that the domestic dog's characteristic playfulness in social contexts is an adaptive trait, selected during domestication to facilitate both training for specific purposes, and the formation of emotionally-based bonds between dog and owner. Play frequency and form may therefore be an indicator of the quality of dog-owner relationships."


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

much like human children, young animals learn about their world through play. 
The Importance of Play for Dogs Revealed - Puppy Leaks

When it comes to training, one of the most important factors is having a dog that is willing to make mistakes - that means to learn on his own. I do competitions as well. And there is nothing more disheartening to watch than a robot dog that gets a perfect score but has no emotion or animation. And it's sad to watch their confusion, stress, and nervousness when something "out of rote" happens. Like on a dumbbell retrieve - the article bounces and goes outside the gate. I've seen rote trained dogs literally melt down because they don't know how to think for themselves - they've never been allowed!


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

lonecat, if you find play "repetitive and boring" you're doing it wrong!


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

another good blog article https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/so-you-think-you-know-why-animals-play/


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Even police K9s are given opportunities to just be dogs sometimes. Their love for playing with toys is one of the qualities that got them chosen for police work in the first place.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@lonecat....I make with post with the well being of the pup in mind.
I, frankly find your approach and attitude toward raising this pup as being major red flag. Your insistence on justifying counter productive behavior on your part( like lack of patience, outbursts, hollering, everything on your terms, even timeout) reflects such an overbearance of your will and lack of self discipline to yourself especially in dealing with a sub six month old puppy. All of us have places in life when we have to subordinate our emotions to situations...like our job, when we drive, hopefully our interaction with loved ones,etc; so your insistence on your inability to control such in this puppy's development reflects a view of this puppy as more of a thing subject to perfection than a living organism that needs patience, love and GENTLE guidance in the imprinting stage. Now maybe this is a lack of knowledge, but after repeated posts from folks saying the same thing in regards to your approach and attitude, and your insistence that you can't decrease or better yet eliminate these approaches because after all you are human???, I really don't understand why you brought this to the forum. People are not going to condone your approach, the development of your pup necessitating your original OP, reflects the need for something to change. Folks have tried to be helpful, you have not been receptive to the help by evidence of your inflexibility on what you are doing.....so it really is sad to some of us that KNOW that what you describe you do is counter productive and yet we don't hear from you acknowledgement and commitment to alter approach.
I really would like to see things work out well for you and your pup/dog....but I think you have to do some soul searching.
Good luck!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

everything that Cliff said .
There are comments that show your distress --

"wow, wow, ok. I don't get where all the anger comes from"

You are the angry person . You said so from the very first post .

" I can try reporting myself and see if animal workers will go arrest me,"
" I fully expect myself to get frustrated and angry and lose temper "

You are telegraphing that you do not have control. No self control so how can you expect to control a situation, a direction or outcome.

Your dog is fine . 
For yourself ? Reduce your stress load. Please get some help and support.

I won't say more on this topic.
I won't take back what I said.
And I meant what I said.

Look after yourself.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

If I had a puppy or a dog that only listened to cheerful commands at all times I would be the happiest dog owner on the planet.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

This thread is so disturbing on so many levels; I feel equally bad for both OP and her puppy. Frankly, I dread what may happen and hope that OP can/will consider all of the options available to her, including rehoming, in the future.

I also am deeply impressed by how many posters did their best to tactfully share their concerns and to provide thoughtful suggestions for going forward. OP may not have understood or appreciated those comments, but I sure did. This is an impressive list and I'm glad I joined.

Aly


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

Firstly to clarify: 

" I can try reporting myself and see if animal workers will go arrest me,"
That is because someone says I sound abusive lol. That is only a return to that.

" I fully expect myself to get frustrated and angry and lose temper "
And as I have explained, it is bound to happen probability wise in the next 10 years, so I expect it to happen

And yes I play tug with my dog and fetch now even though I don't like it, but that is for training and to keep the dog exercised before she can go on walks, once she has shots I can take her on off leash walks which are enjoyable to me and hopefully to her. I honestly don't feel there is something terribly wrong with the bond between my bond, so do my personal trainer and group class trainer both of whom happen to be CGC evaluators... The dog does not fear me and we enjoy each other's presence, and I think she as an adult will survive fine on off leash walks and petting alone as that sounds more interesting than chasing a ball for me.

It actually makes me chuckle that some of you think I am an emotional, angry person, in fact one common complaint I gets from friends is my general lack of emotions and being way too calculating in my approaches but that is what makes me comfortable! I do agree that I have little patience for what I consider boring and can get frustrated when things don't go the way I plan so you are right to criticize me about that. What I meant by losing temper in this context is simply I can't always watch myself to not to use a stern voice when I am in a bad mood. 

This dog is so easy to train and live with and I want her as a jogging partner in the future instead of a human that I need to talk to so I probably won't rehome her just because you think she needs to play. If playing is absolutely a must, then maybe I will hire a walker to play with my pup or something to make it work, though I don't think I will ever enjoy silly play and I don't think it is because I do it wrong --- I think is probably because of my mild Aspergers, which gifts me with incredible math ability but makes my interests very different from normal people so random playing is just boring to me. Anyway all the best with your dogs and feel free to post your opinions, though I will only reply when I feel you assume something off and I want to clarify. According to my friend, observing others' point of view is a great way to expand our mind so I guess this online forum can be an interesting place where I see first hand what normal people think, so thanks to that friend again for letting me know


----------



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

Those pictures are what I am talking about! Those are the top results I get when google "German Shepherd greeting owner". See why I don't think it is fear-based? She greets cats, people she knows, and all other strange/familiar dogs with this facial expression as well, and her ears will stand up a while after the initial greeting, but her ears are up when sniffing complete strangers though she does not want to interact with them so much, how strange.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok, my dogs greet me with ears back, too. It is ears back, full body wag, often with singing, body leaning ect, or the boy will growly talk to say hi

But what you described isn't greeting your dog after an absence, it is your dog offering appeasement behaviors after you are angry, which is not the same thing. 

My husband and my male pup had this miscommunication one time. Pup sniffs near his plate of food at the table and husband says a stern word to him. Pup goes to appeasement, trying to get closer to my husband to "make it right", which kind of put him closer to the food even though he was clearly focused on husband. At this point if husband says anything else stern to him it is just going to be a feedback loop.

So I say tell him to lie down in a neutral voice, which he does, then I can tell him good boy and it is over. Some dogs are really sensitive, my dog is one. Now, at his current age and attitude (19mo) there are times I take a stern tone with him, usually outside, and he just checks himself and that's it. No appeasement, no being sensitive, he knows he did something he shouldn't have, I said quit and that's it.

If I took that same tone with him inside he might be pretty upset, unless he was in the act of antagonizing the older dog and was all riled up.

I never yelled at my pup when he was little....what he did right was a victory with a party and what he did "wrong" required more explanation, direction, supervision. 

So yes some dogs greet like that but it isn't the same thing as your pup doing appeasement behaviors because you yelled, everything in context.


----------



## BlueFalc0n (Jan 16, 2017)

Aly said:


> I also am deeply impressed by how many posters did their best to tactfully share their concerns and to provide thoughtful suggestions for going forward. OP may not have understood or appreciated those comments, but I sure did. This is an impressive list and I'm glad I joined.
> Aly


Share the same sentiment.


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

I have not read this entire thread but did read that the OP is not keen on playing with the pup. 

I have not purchased the book but here is a snippet (about playing with your dog) that came across my email through Whole Dog Journal and thought it might interest the OP.

_Excerpted from Pat Miller's book Play With Your Dog_ 

"Everyone in the family, including children, should play with their dogs. Even young children can be suitable playmates for many dogs, with some important caveats. Assuming your dog likes to play, the more humans she gets to play with, the more humans she'll think are wonderful because they make good stuff happen, and the better socialized she'll be. Dogs who are will-socialized are far less likely to bite or otherwise engage in behaviors that are likely to get them into serious trouble. 

In addition, the more that each family member has fun interacting with the dog, the more likely it is that the dog will stay in that home for her entire life. Play helps build strong bonds, and relationships that support lifelong loving homes for canine family members."

To purchase Book: 
Play with Your Dog - Whole Dog Journal


Moms


----------

