# Young attacking infirmed/disabled elderly dog



## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

Cheyenne is 2 yrs old and Frisco is 12.5 with DM, almost down in his back legs, and with inflammatory bowel disease. Recent vet visit and bloodwork was good and he has been hanging in there for years (yes, he is a rare one with DM) and she said he is spunky and cheerful, still having some quality of life. He has a hearty appetite, loves to be with us, will drag himself to the door to go for car rides ( we dare never leave him behind or else he;ll give us ****. Lounges outside when the weather is nice, can still control his urination and most of the time his bowels.

The problem is that Cheyenne growls and attacks him especially when he is having a bad day walking and manuevering around. Yesterday she was staring at him watching him at the end of the hallway for about 15 whole minutes. He was resting then moving around making a bit of noise and she was lying down while quietly watching him intensly (not with the stiff body, closed mouth, preattack mode). But all of a sudden she bolts over to him as he was coming forward and had her mouth on his head growling. I quickly pulled her off him and made her go to her spot and stay there. He was just full of saliva but never any puncture wounds. Regardless, he shouldn't have to deal with that so her prong collar is on all the time we are home now with a pull leash to correct her when she even looks like she is going to attack.

I had read that in the wild healthy dogs may single out the infirmed and weak who can't fight back to run them away.

Is this what may be happening here? Is it aggression or somethng else?

I will be keeping an eye on them all the time now. He has a great nature to him, a gentle giant. Other times they play and she will lick his face and lay down with him. He has on a help-em-up harness on him which is the best harness we have used in case anyone is looking for a lifting aid.

No verbal condemnations please just need your opinions as to if this is common. I'm trying to figure out the why's of her behavior. And , yes, she has had training by two excellent trainers who claim she is not agressive but she does have guarding issues so I pick up all items she may claim and give them their own while I watch them and pick them back up after they are done playing.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

when my 13.5 yr old rottx was dying of bone cancer he was very very weak at the end. my male pitx who was much much younger tried to kill him one day. as long as he was doing fine my other male wouldnt bother him. once he showed he was dying my male went after him and i had to keep them separated from that point on (it was only a week after that that i had to euth my rott). its possible in your case that is what she was trying to do or she was trying to do something else


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Regardless of the reasoning it can't be allowed to keep happening so I would focus on prevention most of all. Personally I would never leave a prong collar on; I would simply keep her on a flat collar and short leash which is attached to a human. Wherever the human goes, she has to follow and she can be redirected and corrected immediately if she starts looking too intently at the other dog. 

Make sure she's getting plenty of exercise and mental work so she's tired and therefore less likely to misbehave  Keep working on her obedience and redirection away from the older dog as it's much easier to stop and redirect before she gets too worked up

If all else fails or when you need a break do a rotate system where the older dog is put away in a nice quiet room or other area of the house and the younger dog is free to play, then the younger one gets put away and the older one can come out to play.

Hopefully she'll catch on quickly, consistency is always key


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I would think this is caused by bad pack structure. The dog doesn't realize that humans control the pack and is making his position better by trying to kill a weak dog.

I would treat that dog very harshly and teach him that i control the pack not he. I simply allow no violence between dogs, no intimidation or posturing.

If a dog tries to fight another dog then it has crossed a line with me and will be punished and made feel like his position in the pack is in jeopordy


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I would keep them apart unless you are present to intervene, dogs don't reason like people and don't view the older dog as you do.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

MadLab and Shade both have great suggestions.

I agree that you need to manage and prevent by being PRO-active with this. Alot going on with the pack and YOU ARE THE LEADER. So this isn't just between the two dogs. It's what you are doing in the mix to allow it or prevent it and that the younger dog knows you won't tolerate.

The 2 year old is an age that I know I have to really up the training and exercise no matter what's going on. DOG CLASSES! This helps keep me in the leadership role and isn't just about the perfect 'sit' or 'stay'. Working thru training with me and learning the behaviors also sets me up as the leaders and someone who is to be looked to BEFORE the bad behavior is acted out.

Dog classes. Trick training. (Read this ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ick-least-important-part-teaching-tricks.html ) REAL exercise, off leash and wearing that 2 year old out. Trips out and away from the house (and older dog) for the day for socialization and mental stimulation.


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## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

mebully21 said:


> when my 13.5 yr old rottx was dying of bone cancer he was very very weak at the end. my male pitx who was much much younger tried to kill him one day. as long as he was doing fine my other male wouldnt bother him. once he showed he was dying my male went after him and i had to keep them separated from that point on (it was only a week after that that i had to euth my rott). its possible in your case that is what she was trying to do or she was trying to do something else


Interesting


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## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

I will make sure she gets more exercise and keep her with me ( it's hard not to as my house is so small 
The only thing is that when I am home I still will use the prong collar as she doesn't listen to any tugs from the regular collar or verbal commands when that worked up. I never leave it on her when I am out. When I am out they both go to sleep in the bedroom where they nap until I get home.

Maggie, you really got me thinking about the pack structure and I have to step it up and take over my role consistently so she doesn;t have tpo feel as though she has to make "that" decision or any. I will step it up for sure!



I know I have to be vigilent about catching her and correcting her. Thanks for your all of your advice.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

do not leave both dogs loose unattended . i am hoping when you say they are napping in the bedroom until you get home that one of them is crated...

i have a 17 yr old here that is gated away from the other 2 when we are not home so that nothing can happen to her with the other dogs when i am not here


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

jUst curious I know this is hard the older special needs dog you want to give him the best life but do you think she sees that and maybe is being resentful? shes the queen top dog in the house and is suppose to get more attention and attention first but hes getting more since he is "special" but to her it makes no sense and might be causing more of it? I am not sure if that is right but just a thought? It isa very hard situation. Maybe not show anything in front of her? and when shes around get her extra attention since she is the leader? When he was fit he may have been number one but things changed now and in her eyes she thinks he should be dead or at least so low that he does not get much attention at all?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Now we are thinking like a dog, and I think Petsalife is probably looking at like the dog is.....so this is important in coming up with a solution.


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## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

pets4life said:


> jUst curious I know this is hard the older special needs dog you want to give him the best life but do you think she sees that and maybe is being resentful? shes the queen top dog in the house and is suppose to get more attention and attention first but hes getting more since he is "special" but to her it makes no sense and might be causing more of it? I am not sure if that is right but just a thought? It isa very hard situation. Maybe not show anything in front of her? and when shes around get her extra attention since she is the leader? When he was fit he may have been number one but things changed now and in her eyes she thinks he should be dead or at least so low that he does not get much attention at all?


Yes, I had thought of that but she usually gets the most attention. When I let her outside in the yard to play and chase squirrels, that's when I give him extra treats and attention so she doesn't see.

I have read that in wild dog packs the others in the pack will most likely nurture an injured dog but will leave a sick dog behind or kill it. It's not a rule but it often happens. It's assumed that this is the reason why dogs are so stoic in not showing they are in pain or sick and also if a dog in the household suddenly becomes aggressive to another household dog that the dog may need to be checked by a vet as they "may" be ill.


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## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

I was searching the iternet and came upon this article on dog behavior called "Agression, When One Dog is Sick" It's interesting but I'm sure there are other insights into the subject. 
01 Aggression: When One Dog is Sick - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have heard over and over where a young dog will suddenly try to attack an older infirm dog...it is not uncommon...and I know of it happening and the older dog has been injured and PTS.

I see nothing wrong wtih keeping a prong on her, and a tab and if she starts to go to him with "that look", snatch her up and give her a life altering reprimand....make her think the world is ending...these are dogs, they understand strength and dominance. I love mine too, but they are not children, and frankly, I think more parents should think about 'spare the rod, spoil the child"....

Your older guy deserves to finish out his life with as much enjoyment as you can give him, and the young one needs to learn that she is not a decision maker!

Lee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> Your older guy deserves to finish out his life with as much enjoyment as you can give him, and the young one needs to learn that she is not a decision maker!
> 
> Lee


!!!!

there have been a couple instances with our younger dogs and Banshee. We have a Come to Jesus meeting. NOBODY gets to eyeball Banshee.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The old dog is 12.5, has DM, and most of the time can control his bowel movements. This dog is not going to be around long. Sorry. I would separate them. I think that all of the problems stem from an old, sick dog, and a young dog reaching adulthood. If your old dog was 6 or 7 years old, this probably wouldn't even be an issue. The youngster would PROBABLY, just accept the older resident dog as top dog and not think twice about it. 

None of us can crawl into a dog's brain and _know _how or why it is they do the things they do. We can mark behaviors, and see how those behaviors are similar or differ from other dogs' behaviors and we can then use our human brain, with its human experience and moral codes to theorize why the dog is doing what it is doing. 

Is there a deep instinct in some animals to destroy a weak or sick creature? 

Is there a violent changing of the guard when a young and dominant pack member overcomes an elderly pack member who used to hold that spot? 

We just don't know. 

I think we can train a dog to act or not to act in a way that nature/instinct compels them to act. I don't know if punishment is fair or not, or if being THE pack leader will eliminate all concerns. I agree that dogs are not children, and dogs, like many organisms do respect a strong leader. 

I just don't understand the necessity. The dog is not going to last through a serious attack, so why even allow that opportunity? If the youngster needs to be crated when not on lead, either exercising or being trained, for the next couple of months, it will not kill her. And it will prevent the need to train/punish the dog if it tries to act upon its nature with regards to the failing dog. And it will prevent the hard feelings of everyone involved if the younger dog aids the elder into the great unknown. 

Good luck with whatever you end up doing. It is hard when a critter is failing. I am sorry. Years from now, I hope you can reflect not so much on the pain of the loss of your buddy, but on the wonderful times that you had with him.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

If you can't hold the leash then crate or confine the younger dog. You would never forgive yourself if she injured your older dog and it's not fair to him to have this additional stress in his life. 

I would also not leave them together when you're not home, even if you think there is only a 1% chance something could happen. It is just not worth taking the chance.


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## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

Points well taken. I will separate them when we are not home. The prong collar is a must in order to correct her when I am home.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

To add to this. One thing I didn't see anyone mention is that you let staring last for 15 minutes. Don't allow the stink eye! That probably just helped build up to it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Reread my first post!....Good Luck!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> To add to this. One thing I didn't see anyone mention is that you let staring last for 15 minutes. Don't allow the stink eye! That probably just helped build up to it.


It does build up the tension. It's exactly what one of my females does and where I immediately intervene, take the female out of the picture. It always leads up to a fight and what I couldn't do the other day with a herniated disc and alas we had a fight. 

Look for the signs, learn to read your dog and intervene when necessary!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

You can over ride a dogs desire to attack another dog with a good knowledge of pack structure. It sounds like the op is observing the pack rather than conducting it. You need to get down to the dogs level and see the world from there eyes. Then they are easier to manipulate. I don't go for the crate and rotate methods as they are acceptance of not being able to sort an issue and leave it unresolved. This means a slip up on somebodies part causes a fight where as if you were strict from the get go then the dogs will learn to live in peace. You control everything and provide a good life to the dogs and they have nothing to fight over.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

MadLab said:


> You can over ride a dogs desire to attack another dog with a good knowledge of pack structure. It sounds like the op is observing the pack rather than conducting it. You need to get down to the dogs level and see the world from there eyes. Then they are easier to manipulate. I don't go for the crate and rotate methods as they are acceptance of not being able to sort an issue and leave it unresolved. This means a slip up on somebodies part causes a fight where as if you were strict from the get go then the dogs will learn to live in peace. You control everything and provide a good life to the dogs and they have nothing to fight over.


Not everyone has that kind of knowledge and to be honest, I'd rather suggest crate and rotate than coming online and reading that one of the dog is in the hospital undergoing an emergency surgery.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Yea a lot of people like to play it safe with crate and rotate. They couldn't handle their dogs otherwise or think they can't. To me it is not safe in the long run as the tension is not being dissipated.

You can have an issue for years and it just needs one day and someone makes a mistake and lets a dog out at the wrong time and hey presto you have the dogs at it.

I know dogs need to be separated at times especially heat times obviously but too many people rely on the crate to stop issues. 

Now this issue of an older dog being attacked by a younger, the dogs should be separated when not supervised until they can get along better. But to me the goal would be to have them together without tension or aggression. 

The younger dog sounds like it is blocking the older dog. This is claiming the territory for itself. To me the territory belongs to the humans not the dogs. 

The dogs don't have a choice in my house. Anything they do to another dog I will do to them. Simply consequence for there actions which they understand very well.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

"The dogs should be separated when not supervised, until they can get along better"......I have found that once these type attacks take place, overwhelmingly you canNOT leave then unsupervised in the future without good chance of tragedy .....and I know a little about dogs, why would I give a novice that expectation?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

MadLab said:


> Yea a lot of people like to play it safe with crate and rotate. They couldn't handle their dogs otherwise or think they can't. To me it is not safe in the long run as the tension is not being dissipated.


Nope, that's untrue. And the way it's worded makes the "crate and rotate" people seem incompetent. I agree that I'd rather not have to do it, and if there's a way to have the dogs together without a fight then that's the better choice for me too, but some dogs will wait for an opportunity. You have to know them pretty darn well, and watch them like a hawk, to avoid a fight and that's just adding to the tension right there. MadLab, I'm sure you have the experience and can get away with this, but please don't make people second guess themselves at the dogs' expense.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> "The dogs should be separated when not supervised, until they can get along better"......I have found that once these type attacks take place, overwhelmingly you canNOT leave then unsupervised in the future without good chance of tragedy .....and I know a little about dogs, why would I give a novice that expectation?



Yes recently my friend walked home to walls covered in blood 2 dogs living together for like 7 years? one close to death so please take the advice!

This is a female dog attacking an older male though so i am not sure, I have only seen 1 female that would actually go all the way and try to kill males and treat them like females when things did not work out. Its hard to know what exactly going on or how bad. You are the boss sure but you cant control who is the leader between the 2 dogs. Its always going to be the female no matter what, you are not going to break her legs and make her worse than the male.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The old dog does not need the stress of all the work and learning to read the younger dog on the part of the owners, and even all of that isn't fool-proof MadLab. Your advice may be sound in the case of a dog in the middle of life. This guy is at the end of his, and your advice could lead to that. Is that what you really want? The people will come on here and say they don't want to own GSDs anymore, and that they can't even look at their young bitch. 

It is a horrible thing to have to pull to dogs that are really going at it apart. Some of us know this. But this is a case where one of those dogs doesn't stand a chance. 

Please do not try to manage this by crimping down on the behavior of the bitch, and claiming all the territory and punishment, etc.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Please do not try to manage this by crimping down on the behavior of the bitch


I would manage and crimp the aggressors behavior. I would also make sure the fear or behavior of the weaker dog isn't contributing to the situation.

To me it is a fundamental to protect the weaker dog. That is the base of my pack structure. 

These kind of issues take time to resolve if at all possible. Depends on the ability, knowledge and confidence of the owner/handler and the temperament of the dogs and the environment they live in. 

Any owner can over come some issues when they think them through and research all the different opinions and training solutions. Maybe not all. Sometimes a whole new approach is needed as what has gone before has escalated to violence. 

Issues between dogs are there from day one and are let develop due to lack of knowledge on the owners part.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Madlab have u ever even been involved in 2 dogs that seriously hate each other? Or where one really wants to kill another? You make it seem so easy. Not saying this is the case in this post. But you can easily come out losing your fingers if it really is a serious case. Hitting kicking whatever you do is not going to stop 2 gsd's going at it. Or one from killing another. If they are dead set on doing it sorry. When you see a real case you will be in for a big surprise. The dogs you have experienced so far must have not been really intent on killing the other so far. OTherwise you would not act like it is such a small easy thing to fix or act like the owner or other dog or owner even wont be in serious danger when the female gets in that mode. Again I don't know how serious this case is or how bad it will turn out. YOu can stop it for a while then you can forget about it turn your back one day and there is a dead dog in front of you.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

MadLab said:


> I would manage and crimp the aggressors behavior. I would also make sure the fear or behavior of the weaker dog isn't contributing to the situation.
> 
> To me it is a fundamental to protect the weaker dog. That is the base of my pack structure.
> 
> ...


It is not always that simple! 

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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Madlab have u ever even been involved in 2 dogs that seriously hate each other?


Hate is a strong word. I have experience of dogs preying on other dogs and resolving the issues.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

MadLab said:


> I have experience of dogs preying on other dogs and resolving the issues.


But have you ever experienced being bitten?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> But have you ever experienced being bitten?


Only through accident and once by a small dog where it was my fault.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

MadLab said:


> Only through accident and once by a small dog where it was my fault.





MadLab said:


> The dogs don't have a choice in my house. Anything they do to another dog I will do to them. Simply consequence for there actions which they understand very well.


So you've never been bitten, not while disciplining them? Either you have a talent for reading dogs and haven't pushed the ones you know will bite you, or you've been very lucky and haven't met the right dog yet. 

But let's say you did get bitten. What would you do? Some people say to ignore the bite so the dog doesn't think this is going to intimidate you. I think the opposite - that you have to amplify the violence so the dog imagines that another bite might be a fatal mistake in the future. But to get to this point, you have to be willing to get bitten. I think if you are endorsing these "consequence" then you should tell the whole story.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Any normal person bitten reacts out of reflex. Unless it is a trained person pretty much anyone reacts out of reflex to protect themselves. I dont know anyone who would just ignore it. Be it a yelp, jumping into safety or hitting back, there is always a reaction. 

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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I don't see your point Blanketback

The op is using a prong collar to discipline the dog. This is a simulated bite on the dogs neck. Young dog bites the older dog and gets a pseudo bite from the prong collar. That is a consequence for the dog biting. 

Are you gonna advise the op not to use the prong pseudo bite as a form of consequence for it's aggressive behavior in case the dog redirects to the op or what??


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

No, I'd advise that the dogs be kept apart. IMO, even a prong correction isn't good enough to justify having them in the same room, since I'd be more concerned with the senior's state of mind. 

My point was that if you've never been bitten, then you're in no position to suggest these harsh corrections - for one reason or another.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Why do people continously 

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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Why do people continously give bad advise when the solution is stressfree and easy. 

Having to be on top of the dogs a 150% of the time, plus constantly correcting them is STRESS FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED. 
Stress causes more tension.

If you take one dog out of the picture, everyone calms down. I am doing it right now. Sure, there are times when I have them all together but only if they are in the same room with me, the door is closed and they all relax because they know I am in charge. 

If I cannot be there to supervise, they will be crated and only the male and one or two females are allowed to be outside. 

It is an instant stress relief in the whole house. 

That being said, if I do not close the door to the crate room, one of my females will sit in front of the crate of the other female and instigate. It does not matter if she can get to her or not. Her level of irritation and aggression to the other two are currently so high, due to pain, she will sit right outside in front and all you hear are those dangerous low frustrated growls that would lead instantly to a fight if they were together. 

It is not the easy way out, it is the WISER way. 

Also, I have absolutely no issue to utilize a muzzle if I have to. I am so over it to be the "perfect pack leader" because there is just no way you can pay attention a 150% of the day and all these tools are there for a reason. So why not be wise and uae them? 

None of us has to proof something at the expense of our dogs health! Using a tool wisely is not and never will be the same as abusing them. 

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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Why do people continously give bad advise when the solution is stressfree and easy.


Is your set up is stress free and easy??



> If you take one dog out of the picture, everyone calms down.


That is not a permanent solution. Dogs eyeballing each other through a crate is not stress free and easy. Dogs getting in fights when together is not stress free and easy.



> they are in the same room with me, the door is closed and they all relax because they know I am in charge.


[/QUOTE]
So in a controlled environment you are in control, until something kicks off and then one dog will be crated and then you get your control back.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It is not a permanent solution but it is a solution where a novice handler doesnt have to deal with two fighting dogs. 

I have a herniated disc right now, ergo I cannot be downstairs. If something is going on I cannot intervene. So my temp. Solution is to crate and rotate. So that takes the stress out from every dog because I am still controling the environment. 

Crating is controling the environment, sso is the use of an x-pen, babygates or doors and there is nothing the dog can do about it. Leashing and tethering a dog to you is controlling just as much as crating is. You control how much access the dog gets how much it doesnt get. 

Not too hard to understand. 

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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

MadLab, I don't understand why you think keeping dogs apart is stressful and difficult? I have 3 dogs here right now, 2 are DA. So I'm crating and rotating, keeping those 2 apart, and using a muzzle and/or leash for security. Simple as pie  No stress, nothing.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Give it a rest, MadLab. It doesn't have to be, "My way or the highway." The OP will figure out what s/he can best manage.


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Agree with separation when you're not around. Our garage is built in, when I still had Cody and Clipper, they stayed in the house, Hooch, the pitbull I put in the garage. It is like another room of the house. Just to be sure nothing went on. After Cody died we did have a bit of "order of the pack" thing go on with Clipper and Hooch. Still kept the same arrangement while at work, and kept same pecking order of handing out treats, etc. Clipper first, then Hooch. Hooch was my sons dog I had taken in a couple of years ago or so.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Give it a rest, MadLab. It doesn't have to be, "My way or the highway." The OP will figure out what s/he can best manage.


Rest yourself BowBow. If someone quotes me then I will respond and explain. This is called a forum where anybody can discuss a topic as they choose within the rules of the board. How did you get so many posts any ways?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I agree with most tho the older male can be alone just with the owner and live his life in peace for now. Without stress of being the other gsd's victim.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MadLab said:


> Is your set up is stress free and easy??
> 
> 
> *That is not a permanent solution. Dogs eyeballing each other through a crate is not stress free and easy. Dogs getting in fights when together is not stress free and easy.*


So in a controlled environment you are in control, until something kicks off and then one dog will be crated and then you get your control back.[/QUOTE]

MadLab, _this _situation does not NEED a permanent solution. It just doesn't. GSDs live an average of 10-12 years. This dog is 12.5 years old, has DM, and sometimes doesn't control its bowel. Why would anyone start a process to train these dogs to live together in perfect bliss? _That _could be considered cruel, and especially if there are accidents in the process. 

Mrs. K and Pets4life, I agree totally with you on this. 

If there is stress with one dog crated, then put a baby gate in the door way, so the other dog cannot get where the other dog's crate is. No stress. 

Keep one dog in one half of the house and the other in the other half. No stress. 

Fixing problems between resident dogs might make sense in a lot of situations, and if they cannot be fixed, then rehoming may be necessary in some situations, especially if there are children present. But in this situation, I just do not see it as making sense at all. Partly, because we do not _know _if this is a young dog taking over the pack thing, or a healthy dog being driven to remove an infirm dog. It is two different things. 

And, bitches are sneaky, and they can be patient and watch for an opportunity and jump on it. I LOVE bitches, but this is just true. They are smart, they feel jealousy in a raw form that I don't think humans can truly fathom, they can be patient, but they also remember, and when they do strike it can be seriously violent.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

You quoted my comments on Mrs.K's pack structure rather than on the ops. To me quarreling dogs is not free and easy as was suggested. That's just my opinion. Tension and conflict does not equate to free and easy to me. They are just words but hey I prefer the free and easy as the dictionary intended.



> And, bitches are sneaky, and they can be patient and watch for an opportunity and jump on it. I LOVE bitches, but this is just true. They are smart, they feel jealousy in a raw form that I don't think humans can truly fathom, they can be patient, but they also remember, and when they do strike it can be seriously violent.


I really don't agree with you. It might be the case for you and what you have met but I wouldn't generalize females like that. They are only bitchy if you allow it. You may nurture those energies sub consciously. If you let a female away with this and that then it may be sneaky and devious. 

If my bitches were trying to kill a senior, I'd break there balls. I don't care what the situation, no violence in my house between dogs. I make the rules and the pack structure.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh MadLab - how much experience have you had? You never answered my question about what you'd do if the dog bit you. It's all good until that happens, then you'd be singing a different tune. And I do agree with you to a point - you can bully a dog into submission - but don't tell me that in itself isn't stressful. It's so much easier to rely on some basic OB (place, sit, stay) an keep the warring dogs apart. There's no glaring, because they're never in eyeballing distance. Unless you're living in a tent, it's completely doable. 

And not that I know selzer or Mrs.K in real life, but I do know what I've read on here. One a breeder, and another raised in a breeding home. So yeah, I'm thinking they know quite a bit about GSD bitches.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have had countless years and experiences with many many dogs, and I will never trust two adult females once they have had one spat. Somebody may have an example of females being controllable once they have had a spat and are left unsupervised.....but it is WAY past my ability and experiences in dealing with dogs. Nope, two adult females is nothing to play with and I manage them almost always.....and all my dogs know who is boss.....lol


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