# Socialization for a rural 4mo...



## danrhomberg (Jan 14, 2022)

Hi all,

I know this is repetitive here and I have searched socialization and read the different post here first. ;-)

Still, looking for opinions/tips/reassurance for where Odin is today in his development and our specific living environment....The breeder and strangers in public all state "He'll get better" but I want the experts heres opinions for reassurance if you don't mind chiming in.


I've had experience training multiple dogs with phenomenal results in the past(No GSD specifically), but Covid and relocation to rural combined has had obvious challenges that I haven't ever had to train in before.


Odin is 4mo male PB and just got last series of shots. We live semi rural on 7 acres in the Treasure Valley, Idaho....we really keep to ourselves the last 2 years(Covid) and Odin has not had visitors other than a couple of times and takes a while to drop his fear...typical reactions whether in public or at the house is a fear bark, but no actual aggression(Yet).

He's had excellent training(self) consistency for basic House breaking / commands(sit,heel,down,place,crate,calm,speak) / emergency recall / leash as best as possible here on the property.

With responsible ownership in mind(and Odin's health), I was worried at his first fear barks showing up with a delivery driver at about 13 weeks and knowing people socialization has been severely lacking in diversity.

As his shots were not completed, but needing to attack this ASAP we started daily walks in public places as much as possible(20-40 min daily) even in winter.

I have been working on textures, environment variance(Downtown bustle/parks/river/car) while maintaining very strict leash disciplines and interacting with people as much as he allows.

I have been trying to beak the ice with strangers for Odin with treat rewards from them.....while I obviously don't want Odin accepting food from strangers long-term, I feel meeting people in public without fear if more important at this time, when I believe that he can be trained to not accept food from strangers at a later time.

Results vary so far(going from 100% fear bark at every interaction at first to now about a 50/50 mix with no bark or pulling 2-weeks into aggressive socialization training.

He is now 4 days past last shot series.
We have a small F/8yo dog(spayed) that he plays with daily...They do play well, but she snaps, nips(Typical small dog attitude) and he either stays away or rolls over her(turning the side) depending on his mood...lol.
there is a 12 yr old cat in the house(they hate each other, but avoiding each other has become the norm)
about 20 free-ranging chickens...they tend to be indifferent to each other but I do see Odin's prey-drive trigger occasionally, mainly on the Alfa rooster.

There is me, my wife, and our 6yo girl....almost no other visitors than delivery drivers.



Long-term goals with Odin(other than his well-being) is companion/security/farm dog...In that order and a mix of personal and professional training in all 3 categories.



So again, really looking for tips from experience specifically with the GSD and if I'm a little over concerned in your opinions.

What way do you prefer to correct a fear/aggression bark upon a walk???

I really don't even have a clue how to get him socialized for in the house living rural with not a lot of visitors....ideas?


TY again in advance.  

~Dan~



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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think you'd be better off concentrating on ignoring people rather than greeting them.People are just background scenery. Teach a "quiet" command to curb the barking. Decide what you want him to do instead and practice doing it. If he reacts/barks when you're walking - quiet - heel - then move on. Same with delivery drivers - practice what you want him to do instead. When you are absolutely sure he understands what you want you can correct for disobedience. Praise and rewards should be huge and enthusiastic!GSDs aren't generally known to be everyone's best friend and it's normal for them to be suspicious of anyone outside of their family.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You don’t want to and probably can’t make him like other people ultimately. That’s a genetic thing. You can teach him to be more neutral/tolerant through obedience.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Why do you think it's fear aggression? He's only 4 m old, underexposed, insecure, fear periods and stuff, he needs to figure out the world. I would not flood him with strangers but it's ok to meet friendly ones too. Give the treats yourself instead of having the strangers treating him. 

My current dog was a puppy during the first wave of covid lockdowns. No one touched him or met him besides us and vets during his vax appointments. He turned out fine, people neutral and pretty social with friendly strangers, surprisingly.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Podcast #150: How Not to Socialize Your Puppy | Hannah Branigan – Wonderpups Training







hannahbranigan.dog


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm rural, probably not as rural as you are but I'm not one to run my puppies to town to meet people. They meet cows, farm equipment (always interesting reactions there), they see other dogs, they go over log piles. I really like this blog for socialization. 





Socializing Your Puppy: how it should look | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee


The Biggest Mistake Of All: PUPPY SOCIALIZATION. Dogs need to be socialized. That means that dogs need to SEE the world, and handle it with social grace. We need to teach them the skills and habits necessary for participating within our society. Unfortunately socialization got misunderstood as...




naughtydogge.com





When Seger was a puppy, it was the coldest winter we had in years. He didn't see a stranger until spring. A solid dog who has been taught to investigage his environment instead of reacting to it will recover. If you have places like Tractor Supply or any farm store that allows pets, that is a great place to just take them and walk around. Let the workers give him treats. This is really all I did with either of my dogs. I don't encourage people to meet and interact with them. But I do expect to be able to hand the leash to a stranger (to them) and have them be a good citizen (and I've handed them off a lot to my favorite vet tech the last two years.)

You puppy should be able to relax and watch his environment. That is your goal. He doesn't need to interact with everyone and every dog. What you do need to concentrate on is obedience. You stated you wanted him for "security" and from what else you say, I'm assuming that is meant as a visual deterent not an actual PPD.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

danrhomberg said:


> Odin is 4mo male PB


Is this a PB or GSD?



danrhomberg said:


> while maintaining very strict leash disciplines


IMO, this pup is too young for strict leash discipline. Because they are so interested in everything, and they are trying to discover the world, too much strict OB at this young age can leave a negative connotation with things and places. I tend to work either off leash or on a harness and just let them pull. Leash manners are so easy to teach later that I see no need to hammer those kind of things early on.



danrhomberg said:


> beak the ice with strangers for Odin with treat rewards from them.





danrhomberg said:


> he can be trained to not accept food from strangers at a later time


I see no benefit to this. Work on him concentrating on you and just moving through the world with you. He should get rewarded for eye contact with you and for anything that he does well around strangers.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David is 100% dead on. At this age, you should be working on engagement and socializing to the environment (like in the blog I posted). 

I have a sport dog, after about 5 months interact with strangers stop. I don't want my dog going to say hi to everyone. I bought them for my enjoyment - not for everyone else. I expect them to move thru a public venue and not be a menace. I often tell people NO, you can not pet my dog because I don't want to take time out of my life, my dog is not public property and adults do incredibly stupid things that are just asking to get bit so I don't put my adult dogs in those situations. And I don't feel the need to explain myself when I say No.


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## danrhomberg (Jan 14, 2022)

Jax08 said:


> . I really like this blog for socialization.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I saw this in other post. Thanks for making sure and supplying again....





Jax08 said:


> You puppy should be able to relax and watch his environment. That is your goal. He doesn't need to interact with everyone and every dog. What you do need to concentrate on is obedience. You stated you wanted him for "security" and from what else you say, I'm assuming that is meant as a visual deterrent not an actual PPD.



The different descriptions of "sport" vs "PPD" seem to be all over the place depending on the person/trainer/website you are talking to at that moment...

Nothing is definite yet as I'm still analyzing temperament, but Odin will have most likely a "sport" training that I currently envision... He is derived from PPD lineage. I envision command-controlled off leash capable....don't know if that helps/makes sense.


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## danrhomberg (Jan 14, 2022)

dogma13 said:


> I think you'd be better off concentrating on ignoring people rather than greeting them.People are just background scenery. Teach a "quiet" command to curb the barking. Decide what you want him to do instead and practice doing it. If he reacts/barks when you're walking - quiet - heel - then move on. Same with delivery drivers - practice what you want him to do instead. When you are absolutely sure he understands what you want you can correct for disobedience. Praise and rewards should be huge and enthusiastic!GSDs aren't generally known to be everyone's best friend and it's normal for them to be suspicious of anyone outside of their family.




understood....TY.(hearing this a lot and eyes open now also confirming with friend of 3 GSD's)

What do you think on this method?

 Quiet Command (*source SPCA*)...Benefit Dogs bark for a number of reasons: people walking by, other dogs, boredom, frustration, and loneliness, for example. Some types of barking can be redirected and controlled with the quiet command. Other types require behavior modification through a customized training program. 

How to Train It 
Step 1: Set up a practice time when you know your dog will bark, like when the mailman comes or when people are coming and going around your house. 

Step 2: Before starting, clip on your dog’s leash (and Gentle Leader if necessary) and go to the area where your dog usually barks. If your dog runs to the front door when he hears people outside, start at the front door. 

Step 3: When your dog barks, wait for the barking to calm down slightly (usually about 10 seconds). The instant your dog pauses, place a tasty treat (cheese, hotdogs, liver snacks) directly in front of his nose and say “quiet.” You are encouraging your dog to be quiet by coupling two incompatible behaviors—it’s difficult for a dog to bark while sniffing and eating! Give a few more treats while he is quiet. 

Step 4: Remove the treats and ignore your dog. When he begins to bark again, wait for another break, then place a tasty treat directly in front of his nose and say “quiet.” 

Step 5: Over time, gradually increase the length of time your dog has to wait before getting the treat. An example of progression would be: 
A. Say “quiet” with treat in front of nose, give treat immediately. 
B. Say “quiet” with treat in hand but in direct sight of your dog. 
C. Say “quiet” with treat in hand but with treat not visible. 
D. Say “quiet” with treat in hand, wait one second before giving treat (if your dog stays quiet). Repeat D, gradually increasing the length of time before your dog gets the treat. 

Step 6. After a few training sessions, you may notice your dog stops barking and looks to you for a treat. At this point you can start saying the command before your dog stops barking.

 Step 7. Be conscious of how long it takes for your dog to stop barking and look for the treat. Example: your dog barks at a passer-by for 15 seconds before he looks to you for a treat. In this case, start off saying “quiet” at 13 seconds. If your dog obeys, he gets a big reward. If he doesn’t, you need to go back to the beginning so he learns the word “quiet.” 

Step 8. Over time, start interrupting the barking sooner. Stay at each level for 10–20 trials and keep the sessions to 5–10 minutes. If you have time, you can proceed with multiple sessions in one day. Also start sitting farther away from your dog, so he has to come to you to get the treat. 

Step 9. Gradually increase the length of time your dog has to wait before getting the treat: 
A. Say “quiet” with treat in front of nose, give treat immediately. 
B. Say “quiet” with treat in hand, but in direct sight of your dog. 
C. Say “quiet” with treat in hand but with the treat not visible. 
D. Say “quiet” with treat in hand, wait one second before giving treat (if your dog stays quiet) Repeat D, gradually increasing the length of time before your dog gets the treat. 

Step 10. Once your dog responds to the verbal command and his barking doesn’t last as long, you can move away from him during training sessions: 
A. Sit or stand a few feet away from your dog. When he barks, give the command with a treat in your hand, extended out to your dog. Your dog will have to leave his spot to come to you for his reward. 
B. Repeat this step 10–20 times at the same distance. C. Gradually move farther away from your dog, allowing him to bark but then giving the “quiet” command and offering the treat to him so he can see it. 

Step 11: Now stand or sit across the room from your dog, without any treats visible, and allow your dog to bark and then give the “quiet” command. 
A. Have your dog come to you, and then treat him. 
B. Gradually lengthen the time between when your dog gets to you and giving the treat. 

Step 12: Now you can start using the same protocol when you are out of the room. When you say “quiet,” your dog should immediately come looking for his reward. 

Tips & Pitfalls  Have your dog on a leash so you can control what he’s rewarded for. If he runs towards the thing that makes him bark, he’s rewarding his own behavior. If he’s on leash, he can’t. 
 With extensive barking, you may need to start in another room to be able to find a barking pause to work with. If the habit is too strong, it can take a long time before the dog pauses. 
 Each barking trigger is different. Your dog may bark less when the neighbor comes home, but go out of control when he hears the UPS truck. Pay attention to the different sounds your dog reacts to and adjust your training sessions accordingly. 
 Proceed only when your dog reliably responds to the quiet command. If he stops responding, go back to the previous step for another 10–20 trials before moving on.



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## danrhomberg (Jan 14, 2022)

GSD07 said:


> Why do you think it's fear aggression? He's only 4 m old, underexposed, insecure, fear periods and stuff, he needs to figure out the world. I would not flood him with strangers but it's ok to meet friendly ones too. Give the treats yourself instead of having the strangers treating him.
> 
> My current dog was a puppy during the first wave of covid lockdowns. No one touched him or met him besides us and vets during his vax appointments. He turned out fine, people neutral and pretty social with friendly strangers, surprisingly.


TY!  




Bramble said:


> Podcast #150: How Not to Socialize Your Puppy | Hannah Branigan – Wonderpups Training
> 
> 
> 
> ...


TY....going thru this today.


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## danrhomberg (Jan 14, 2022)

David Winners said:


> Is this a PB or GSD?
> 
> *Sorry David...new here....Pure bred GSD....PPD lineage...Thought it might offer additional insight to **temperament adding to Odin's description.*
> 
> ...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

danrhomberg said:


> The different descriptions of "sport" vs "PPD" seem to be all over the place depending on the person/trainer/website you are talking to at that moment...


No. It's not. A sport dog is not trained as a Personal Protection Dog. It is very different training. I would not expect my sport dog, who is trained to bite a sleeve and very oriented to that sleeve, to take down a burgler in my house. If a person does not know the difference in those two then they simply have no idea what they are talking about and have never trained a dog in either.

As far as the PPD lineage comment - all of our working dogs should have the ability to be a PPD. That actually means nothing to me. Schutzhund/IPO/IGP is supposed to be a test to ensure the dogs are breed worthy and have the genetics to do PPD, K9, SAR, etc. It's a working breed.


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## danrhomberg (Jan 14, 2022)

Jax08 said:


> No. It's not. A sport dog is not trained as a Personal Protection Dog. It is very different training. I would not expect my sport dog, who is trained to bite a sleeve and very oriented to that sleeve, to take down a burgler in my house. If a person does not know the difference in those two then they simply have no idea what they are talking about and have never trained a dog in either.
> 
> *Exactly my point...Yours is the opinion I agree with....all I was stating there are many out there from what I've seen online that incorrectly differ.*


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It is very hard to reply to your responses or quote them in a reply to you when you reply inside a quote, bold and underline it. You can simply highlight the text you want to reply to and hit the quote button, or hit reply to quote the entire message.



David Winners said:


> too much strict OB at this young age can leave a negative connotation with things and places


I'll elaborate a bit.
Pup gets interested in a thing and wants to check it out.
Pup heads towards thing with puppy exuberance.
Pup gets a collar correction and possibly associates the correction with the interesting thing because heel isn't an understood and proofed behavior at this point.
Rinse and repeat.

So yes, I think it can be very detrimental. There is a reason, several actually, that most trainers don't use correction collars until at least 6 months.

I understand the benefits of having a well trained dog. I get lots of compliments as well. My dog will heel off leash through a busy dog park. 

No need to rush things, and plenty of reason not to.


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## danrhomberg (Jan 14, 2022)

dogma13 said:


> I think you'd be better off concentrating on ignoring people rather than greeting them.People are just background scenery. Teach a "quiet" command to curb the barking. Decide what you want him to do instead and practice doing it. If he reacts/barks when you're walking - quiet - heel - then move on. Same with delivery drivers - practice what you want him to do instead. When you are absolutely sure he understands what you want you can correct for disobedience. Praise and rewards should be huge and enthusiastic!GSDs aren't generally known to be everyone's best friend and it's normal for them to be suspicious of anyone outside of their family.



Update here....TY again. Odin coming right along and getting much better upon command with "Quiet".


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## danrhomberg (Jan 14, 2022)

David Winners said:


> It is very hard to reply to your responses or quote them in a reply to you when you reply inside a quote, bold and underline it. You can simply highlight the text you want to reply to and hit the quote button, or hit reply to quote the entire message.
> 
> 
> I'll elaborate a bit.
> ...



Update....TY again for your input David. Oden coming right along. A ways to go but relaxing into more of exploring vs. control has really opened him up. He's still a bit fearful(70-80% relaxed at this point on most walks whether in downtown or park) and sometimes seems to regress a tad, but overall, vastly improving.

I am noticing he will not pee or poop anywhere but at home....Issue or will work itself out with time IYO?.....Most walks last 20-40 min.

Again, TY for your time to reply.


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## gtaroger (Aug 4, 2015)

I feel Mr Winners is on point about trying to train your pup at to young of a age.Over the years I have found that I had rather have my dog set down and relax while i'm talking to someone. There is no reason that I should let everybody pet my dog. When someone comes to my home I would rather my dog to feel relaxed and not bothered by someone wanting to pet him. I found over the years that my dogs will show if they want to be petted by someone.Most of the time when they are around a stranger ,they would rather set or lay a small distance from them .I think the petting thing is more so the person wants to pet the dog , not the dog wanting to be petted by a total stranger.Teach him to be quit and stay some where and watch or nap.The only exception are when kids are around,he gets very excited and and happy. He loves the attention from kids.I still do not allow them to be alone with him.Kids can do some of the craziest thinks to a dog.At a art show that my wife , myself and Sawyer We had a about 6 year old girl come running up from behind and jabbing Sawyer in the rearend with her hand held in a pointed fashion.Sawyer turned around and looked at the girl. I did not see it happen . A woman running a booth came up to me a told me what had happened. As We stood and talked to the woman the little girl came aroud and tried to do it again. I cought her and stopped her from doing it again.I walked over to the booth that her parients were running. I told them what their daughter had done.They acted like it was nothing,didn't say a word to the child.I'm happy to have a dog that I could take any where and not worry about him getting aggressive.If you have a dog that can go any place with you and your family and great with them,you can't go wrong.


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