# Sable starting out dark...



## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

Then lightening up? Is it unusual? I posted Fizban in the pics section with his color changes. What do you guys think...if you've not posted yet in the pics forum:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=781029&page=1#Post781029


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

he will keep changing
Brady is 3 and he is getting more red around his ears


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## GSDTrain (Apr 21, 2008)

yes, he will keep changing. Ivy is 2 and her coat is still changing colors- she is lightening up..


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Mace was a really dark pup but he has lightened up quit a bit, definately not a "true" black sable we thought he was going to be.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

The first is masi when she was around 6wks old,,and the bottom one is her last week,,she has darkened up considerably,,I have to say, Fizban is a gorgeous dog ))


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

Wow, Masi is gorgious!!!


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

I have noticed that they will lighten up then over the next year or two they will go back to the color they looked when young.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JokerI have noticed that they will lighten up then over the next year or two they will go back to the color they looked when young.


I agree! I was just thinking this the other day.

Kelso, sable, as a small puppy 










lighter stage




























and now at just turned 2 yrs old, almost as dark as he started off as a pup


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

By dark, I mean almost all black. Here he is at 6 and 1/2 months
























Now at 9 months.













































I don't know what color he was as a pup, but I'm assuming he was almost pure black.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

His coloring is BEAUTIFUL!!!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

That one where he's playing with Sasha. . .he looks so much like Risa.







I wish I could help with coloring changes using Ris as an example. . .but I got her at 2.5 so I have no idea what she looked like as a pup.

















































Their coloring is almost like a full-body sable. Even the darkest sable GSDs I've seen still have almost 'tan points' in their coloration. Neither Fizban, Risa, or Jean's Anna seem to have it. They're just sable through and through. It's very unique and a bit of a conundrum!


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

Ris's body is built just like Sasha's, its like she's a mix of Fiz and Sasha! The silver/black sable color is...unusual to be sure.

I was wondering if anyone else had a sable GSD that started off black..or nearly so, then lightened up. So far it's looking like not.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Joan - Did you see this post of mine from a while back asking about the coloring of this dog? It looks a lot like yours
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...&gonew=1#UNREAD


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

yes Barb I did! The colors are almost identical. Fizban does have banded hairs, so he is a sable. This one too I would hazard to guess has banded hairs, and is sable not a black with bleed through like the other folks had suggested. They're just an off color of sable I guess.....Off color but gorgious none the less.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

you know of course Joan what this all means.
You have to post frequent pictures so we can see any change as it happens


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

Wow Joan!!...I don't think I have ever seen a sable in person THAT dark...GORGEOUS!!!! 

to respond to the original poster...yes, usually sables will get lighter starting at birth, and as they mature get darker again. The best way to know how dark they will end up is to see a picture of them within a few days old....


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I've been doing some searching to find dogs that are the same 'solid' sable as Risa, Fizban, and Anna. It's sort of an ongoing thing for me since I'm still trying to narrow down Ris' mixes.









So far, I'm not finding many breeds that exhibit a 'solid' sable. Italian Greyhounds seem to:
















This is the only GSD I've found that's close--though she still has some tan markings:
















But the closest color matching I've found is on wolves (not saying that Fizz, Ris, or Anna are wolf crosses):


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jamie, there's a guy on another board I go to that has a husky mix with color like Ris. Looks solid black or brown but in the right light or brushed backward, it's not solid.

For some reason the site won't let me into his profile but here is the teeny-tiny pic of the dog


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Lies, that is very cool. I'd love to see a larger picture of him--he looks gorgeous.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is so weird, for some reason I get an error when I click on his profile but I can get into anyone else's! If I can find more pictures I'll post them...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jamie, here's the dog:


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

oooh, he's pretty. He looks Weim color. I'd guess Weim lab mix before I'd think husky mix.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

From his coat color, eye color, and nose leather, the dog above to me looks blue. 

The wolf coloration featured is what's called "black phase" and those animals really do lighten up a lot. They are a kind of silver color as adults, so I think that's a different color genetically from what we call sable and whatever Fizban is. 

I've seen some of the Fizban threads and I still think he's black with bleed through not a conventional genetic sable. I'm not sure about the banded hair test. Grace is clearly a blanket BT and she has banded hairs. So does Leo who is a saddle BT. I don't know exactly what causes his color genetically, but it sure does look like some other color than what we are normally talking about when we say "black sable" which is more like the GSD that someone else posted on here. 

There was that breeder site a couple months ago that had one colored just like Fizban and she was breeding a lot of blues - even though that dog was not. I wondered if that had effect? Like carrying one recessive blue allele let to less complete black coverage?







I don't know enough about the genetics of GSDs to be sure. Whatever color that is, it is GORGEOUS! I wish it were something that showed up more frequently, it'd be my favorite GSD color hands down!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I agree. Lies, he looks to be the same color as Ris but with blue dilution. What a handsome dog!

If Fiz's coat is anything like Risa's, each hair is banded. If you pluck a hair from her coat (or just pull one off the couch), you'll see distinctive banding on the hair. The base is light with a black tip. A black dog with bleed through wouldn't have sable hairs, I don't think.

Let me see if I can get my friend who knows a lot about canine genetics to weigh in on this.


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## GeeRome (Sep 22, 2008)

Hi all! Risa told me about this thread and asked me to pop in with some opinions. I don't have GSDs myself, I'm a Sheltie kinda gal, but I do admire the GSDs and love how they work. A lady I train with has a beautiful long haired Shepherd that I would totally steal if I knew he wouldn't be heart-broken without her! haha As to why I'm here, I'm a bit of a dog color genetics addict. I'm finishing up my Masters in molecular genetics, focusing on cattle and dog coat color and have the honor of working under one of the leading researchers in canine coat color genetics. 

The colors that you folks have been discussing are all beautiful, but they aren't all the same. There are some pictures posted that are clearly sable, and others (like Risa) that I can't really explain. Genetically, sable is produced by the Agouti locus. There are 4 alleles at the Agouti locus: ay (sable or fawn) > aw (wolf sable) > at (black and tan) > a (recessive black). GSDs have all 4 alleles. Things sometimes get a little confusing when switching from "genetic" terms to "breed" terms. The sable that you are all discussing here is the aw (wolf sable) allele. The banded hairs with a dark base, red center, and dark tip. The ay sable is not a banded hair, rather it is a tipped hair, with a red base and a dark tip. All of the agouti alleles (aside from recessive black) have tan points to some varying degree. So even on the wolf sable dogs, you will see lighter portions on the legs and cheeks (if they dont have a mask) in the same pattern that you would see on a black and tan dog (think Rottweiler or Doberman Pinscher). 

Looking just at the wolf sable dogs (like Masi, Kelso, and Fizban) there is a lot of variety. Now, there are a couple of reasons genetically that this might happen. None of which are proven yet, though. One reason could be a promoter mutation, meaning a mutation not IN the gene itself, but rather in the area prior to the gene that controls the expression of the gene. A promoter mutation would affect where a certain color is expressed along the hair shaft and across the body, what age it is expressed at, the extent to which it is expressed, etc. This could be a heritable mutation that doesn't necessarily link with the aw allele, so for instance, a dog that is aw WITH the mutation, may express a thicker red band in the hair, where a dog that is aw WITHOUT the mutatio will have a thinner red band in the hair. Just for example. Another option for the variation among wolf sable dogs, MIGHT be related to what they are at the other allele. This theory I'm not completely convinced of from a genetic standpoint, but it is worth noting. Since aw is the second dominant allele in the Agouti heirarchy, a wolf sable dog could be aw/aw, aw/at or aw/a. It might be possible that a dog that is aw/aw has minimal tan markings on their legs, where a dog that is aw/at has more significant red markings, and a dog that is aw/a is a much darker sable. That would imply that the allele that the dog carries has some impact on the expression of the allele that they exhibit. Not a popular theory speaking in purely genetic terms as it underrides the completely dominant relationship that has been established at the Agouti locus, though not completely impossible either. 

As for the color changing as the dog matures, that has to do with both the maturity of the coat itself and the expression of Agouti in an age dependent manner. When a pup is born, the hair is short compared to how long it will be when the dog is mature, and it is if a different texture. So a banded hair on a pup with a soft downy short coat is going to appear different than a banded hair on an adult dog with a coarse guard coat that is of mature length. Likewise, as the hair grows and matures, the proportion of red to black on the hair can change. So like in the pictures of Kelso, it isn't so much that the color of his coat is changing, but rather the proportion of mature guard hairs to downy under coat is changing. Once the guard hair coat matures, he appears darker, though in the picture of him snoozing on the couch, you can see young immature guard hairs poking up everywhere, and they are the color of his adult coat. So it's not that his color is changing, it's just that the coat TYPE is maturing. 

To try and explain what is happening with a dog like Risa, I'm at a bit of a loss. Canine color genetics has not yet reached the point that we can explain that color combination. Though I do know of many dogs that seem to have the same color, so it certainly isn't all that uncommon. It reminds me most of the color "seal" or "bronze" in Italian Greyhounds, 

http://www.dogstarrkennels.com/Destiny%201.jpg
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/Vinnie.jpg

We don't currently know what causes this color in Italian Greyhounds, but it does appear similar to that of some of the dogs you posted here. My theory is that it is a multiple gene interaction, requiring mutations at multiple loci, so wouldn't be a straight forward Mendelian inheritance. 

I think that is all the questions that were asked, I hope I was able to shed some light ... or at least not confuse anyone with my random ramblings! haha


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Interesting info! While we've got you - can you help with the genetics of dogs where the black truly changes color (versus the outer coat/under coat thing)? Breeds like Yorkies are born black and tan but mature to silver. Same happens with black phase wolves. What's going on there? 

ALL very interesting! Thanks for chiming in!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Thank you very much for hopping on here and sharing your knowledge. I really appreciate it.











> Originally Posted By: GeeRomeThe ay sable is not a banded hair, rather it is a tipped hair, with a red base and a dark tip.


Ris' hairs are tipped instead of banded. Her base is tan (red) with a varying degree of black tipping. So she'd be ay sable then?


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## GeeRome (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey Pupresq! 

That is what is called "progressive greying", in some breeds, they call it "clearing". I actually did my undergrad thesis on the very subject! 

The locus is often called the G locus, but the actual gene that causes the trait is not known. 

It's seen in many terrier breeds (Kerry Blue Terriers, Cairn Terriers, Bedlington Terriers), some herding breeds like Old English Sheepdogs and Bearded Collies, and potentially some other breeds such as Havanese, Irish Wolfhounds, etc. Again, when you get into the terrier-type dogs or dogs with very coarse coats, it is difficult to tell if the hair itself is actually changing color or if it just appears to the human eye to be a different color because of the texture of the hair. But it definitely does occur in many breeds, so that trait is not completely imaginary. haha 

I have my theories as to what causes progressive greying, primarily to do with the transport of pigment from the melanocytes to the keratinocytes to the hair follicle and up the hair shaft. As some dogs with progressive greying also exhibit various skin issues, the clumping of pigment in the skin may be a cause. Which would then point to an altered action of the transport system, likely controlled by an age dependent promoter that "wears off" as the dog matures. 

Sorry I can't be of much help there. The canine coat color genetics world is relatively new. There are old publications (notably by C. C. Little in 1957 and a couple of others) that predicted inheritance patterns through test matings of multiple dogs, but those projects were not actually looking at the traits on a molecular level, so we don't know the genes or modes of action of the various mutations. That is all breaking news, and many of the questions just aren't answered yet.


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## GeeRome (Sep 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Murphy-ElperroguapoRis' hairs are tipped instead of banded. Her base is tan (red) with a varying degree of black tipping. So she'd be ay sable then?


Potentially. With short coats it is sometimes difficult to tell for sure with the naked eye. The ay locus is quite intriguing. It can create coat colors everywhere from a fawn Great Dane to a red sable Sheltie, to a dark sable Tervuren. I don't think the length of the hair is the primary determinant as to whether or not the hair is tipped (Sheltie, Tervuren, GSD, etc) or solid red (Great Dane, Whippet, Italian Greyhound, etc.). I think there is another interaction that determines whether there is a black tip or not. It may be that in short coated dogs, if the ay has a black tip, then you wind up with the "seal" color. If the ay doesn't have a black tip, you get the fawn. Like in Shelties, the ay with the tip gives a dark sable (like my Gio) and the ay without a tip gives a red sable. But those are just my musings, nothing in that regard is known for sure.


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

The dark tipped hairs are totally different from banded hairs are they not? Fiz's guard hairs go from black at the base, then have a very narrow band of silver then the tip is black.


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## GeeRome (Sep 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: JoanThe dark tipped hairs are totally different from banded hairs are they not? Fiz's guard hairs go from black at the base, then have a very narrow band of silver then the tip is black.


Yes, the tipped hairs (ay) appear red/yellow at the base and dark at the tip. The banded hairs (aw) appear dark at the base and tip with a band of red/yellow across the center of the hair. 

The difficulty arises when you have very short hair. It is sometimes hard to determine if there is a black base or not if the hair is very short. So in the case of a dog like Risa, or even more extreme like an Italian Greyhound, there might be a dark base to the hair, but just because of the length of the entire hair, it may be difficult to see.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Ris' body hairs (along her abdomen) are about an inch in length. The ones on her pantaloons are 2-3 inches in length. Neck hairs are about the same length as those on her body. The ones on her pantaloons are the easiest to ID as red with black tips. The ones on her neck and body are mostly black with just a slight area of red at the base.

It's amazing that Fizban and Ris would have such similar coloring yet not have similar hair shafts. Then again, it is possible that the black base is just not visible due to her short hair shafts. Intriguing!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Nevermind! Found some tail hairs (which are significantly longer) that had a black base, a tan middle, and a black tip.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

thanks for the great info GeeRome


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