# Is this really what the Breed Standard calls for?



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: GSD winner "among the worst I have ever seen" says world's leading locomotion expert


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I wondered when this would show up. It's surfaced on FB the last few days. It's the typical frog dog stuff you've seen before, from an AR blog, designed to be inflammatory. Before everyone starts screaming around about ASLs, know that there IS a push for a moderate dog. I'm seeing it at the shows, and have talked to breeder friends who have gone away from "too much rear".


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Like it or not, THIS dog has a big win now that many will want to match.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I'm not saying there are not good representatives of the breed within the ALS pool.

I'm also not anti-showline as I've owned before but this for me is not ok.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

His puppies will fetch top dollar. Yay for the breeder. 

I hate how people are creating these dogs and breeds that are so far away from what nature deems worthy of survival. Pugs, English bulldogs, etc. 

The farther you get from the appearance of the wolf, the worse off you are.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

does it take animal rights group to point out that this is CRUEL to a living animal -- typical frog dog stuff -- wouldn't be typical if there were not animals which have such deformed unnatural conformation and enough people drinking the cool aid convincing themselves and others for $$$ gain.
shame on the judges who continually advance such dogs.
shame is that this dog still is not "the worst"
the folly is also seen in bulldogs, pugs, dachshund , .... on and on . 

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
stop the madness . stop the insanity.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OMG, my dog has the wrong conformation as she walks on her feet and doesn't look like a kangaroo.


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## joeinca (Mar 19, 2015)

Oh my...just makes me cringe to look at those photos. What a shame!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

was this the dog at Westminster?


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

I honestly didn't believe this could possibly be a real article-- that this dog won best of breed in any kind of competition. I had no idea it was that bad


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I saw that dog on TV.

He was also showing a lot of whale eye and lip licking.
So not only a conformational mess, but temperamental as well.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

carmspack said:


> was this the dog at Westminster?



Rumor was Breed and got a Group 4 at Westminster, and went BIS at the Eukanuba.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

OMG, I know _*nothing*_ about lines or showing, but I do know that that dog does not look right. Seems down right uncomfortable, and hurts me to look at it. Sad....sad


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

dogfaeries said:


> Rumor was Breed and got a Group 4 at Westminster, and went BIS at the Eukanuba.



Oops wasn't very clear. The dog that you all are discussing is not Rumor. Carmen asked if he was the dog at Westminster. No. Rumor was at Westminster.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have seen a lot of American Showline dogs in person, and I haven't seen dogs that look like that. Obviously there are some out there, but neither in the all breed ring or the specialty ring are these dogs popular around here. I have to agree with dogfaeries that this is just out there to inflame.

ETA: what has been going on in facebook, PDB, and forums, is your typical working line people seeing something that they dislike more than usual about showline dogs and making the most of it. It would be like us showline people dragging up a bit of crappy IPO work and dissing all the working line dogs because of it, even if we don't know the first thing about IPO.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

"Beautiful dogs, failed by the humans who purport to love them the most." This says it all, really.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

This isn't about bashing show line dogs. This is about this judge putting up this dog as Best in Breed at a National Show. Suggesting this dog best meets the Breed Standard at a National Show.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saphire said:


> This isn't about bashing show line dogs. This is about this judge putting up this dog as Best in Breed at a National Show. Suggesting this dog best meets the Breed Standard at a National Show.


What national show? 

Rumor won at Westminster. How many national shows are there?

You know why I think this was dredged up? Because so many people were excited about the GSD going Best In Show. That hasn't happened in a while, and the show line people are all excited. I think this is really out there to bash showline people.

It's kind of like putting out a documentary on how awful racing horses are, after American Pharaoh won the triple crown. There are people out there that want to wound when people are happy -- not you. But the people that originally posted this stuff, because people were bound to run with it.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I'm not talking about Rumor.

I am looking at and posting about the dog in the link of this thread. Come on Sue, look at the structure and movement of this dog, it's black and white. Nothing is made up, not about the stack in just one picture, hocks flat on the ground in both a stack and when moving.....it's both wrong and sad to say this is good and something that should be bred for.


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

The "National" show was in Phila. second weekend in Nov, it was aired on TV Thanksgiving. That is the dog in the post.
Westminster is in NY in Feb. Rumor went G4 at that show, she also went BIS in FL at the big Eukenuba show, it was her 100 BIS more than 4600 dogs entered.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

gsdheeler said:


> The "National" show was in Phila. second weekend in Nov, it was aired on TV Thanksgiving. That is the dog in the post.
> Westminster is in NY in Feb. Rumor went G4 at that show, she also went BIS in FL at the big Eukenuba show, it was her 100 BIS more than 4600 dogs entered.


I don't have an issue with Rumor, different league and dog than the one being discussed in this thread.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Saphire said:


> I don't have an issue with Rumor, different league and dog than the one being discussed in this thread.


agree, Rumor is a great representation to the breed, handler and breeder should be proud. 
The thread is not about Rumor, from what I've gathered.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

I saw this article on FB too - that dog's hocks look awful! It does make you wonder what the other dogs at the show must have looked like. Was it politics that put this dog up front? Yikes, poor fellow.

But yes, I have also since seen this being shared by "old-style flat back oversized low drive" GSD breeders as a jab at ASL breeders as a whole. This is an unfortunate case, but I can't imagine it's representative of all ASL breeding practices out there. My pet GSD from American show lines looks nothing like that/


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

selzer said "I have seen a lot of American Showline dogs in person, and I haven't seen dogs that look like that. Obviously there are some out there, but neither in the all breed ring or the specialty ring are these dogs popular around here. I have to agree with dogfaeries that this is just out there to inflame."


I have. Zeus and Zeto Fran Jo, Doppelt-Tays Masterkey and others (in person and close up) - they're in the GSD Reviews .

Inflame . Time to burn the institution to the ground - rebuild .

The other dog , the dark black and tan , looks unwell, unhealthy, uncomfortable , unhappy .


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Saphire said:


> I don't have an issue with Rumor, different league and dog than the one being discussed in this thread.


For what it's worth, Eukanuba put a terrible photo of Rumor up, right after her win, and the internet blew up over it. "oh what a horrible crippled dog" etc etc. I've seen her more than once, up close, and she is not crippled by any means, lol. There were so many beautiful photos of her, you wonder why they chose a bad one...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I never saw that, I only saw photo's of her in excellent coat, and standing with power in her structure. 
As far as that poor pathetic bicolor with the soft ear, I wonder if that puppy was fed crap food, kept in a crate and never allowed to be a puppy. The whole body screams of cramped crate and poor nutrition.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

dogfaeries said:


> For what it's worth, Eukanuba put a terrible photo of Rumor up, right after her win, and the internet blew up over it. "oh what a horrible crippled dog" etc etc. I've seen her more than once, up close, and she is not crippled by any means, lol. There were so many beautiful photos of her, you wonder why they chose a bad one...


The dog in question for this thread has several pictures both static and video. It's been broken down to frames to see the same issues exist when moving.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

As a person that was AT the dog show an KNOWS the dogs that were there, let me tell you this: his owners have busted their butts with this dog. Though the dog is being shown by a pro now, he was raised and completely trained by a junior handler. This dog has a stellar temperament, and has no issues with crowds and people and and and. You'll see lots of show dogs lip lick a lot. It is not an automatic sign of stress. We bait our dogs, they want the bait, they drool.

It was not politics that caused the dog to win. The judging was honest. A more mature animal than what I had was put up (My dog went WD on Saturday).

You don't have to like the dog, but how about we don't state things about him that aren't true? Or imply that the rest of the entry was crap just because you don't agree with what was put up.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Xeph said:


> As a person that was AT the dog show an KNOWS the dogs that were there, let me tell you this: his owners have busted their butts with this dog. Though the dog is being shown by a pro now, he was raised and completely trained by a junior handler. This dog has a stellar temperament, and has no issues with crowds and people and and and. You'll see lots of show dogs lip lick a lot. It is not an automatic sign of stress. We bait our dogs, they want the bait, they drool.
> 
> It was not politics that caused the dog to win. The judging was honest. A more mature animal than what I had was put up (My dog went WD on Saturday).
> 
> You don't have to like the dog, but how about we don't state things about him that aren't true? Or imply that the rest of the entry was crap just because you don't agree with what was put up.


What about the structure of the dog? Those photos and video tell a story. You can praise the owners and how hard they worked (I'm sure they did..I don't doubt that), but that doesn't make up for the way the dog looks. Parts of the dog are touching the ground that shouldn't be touching the ground. If this is what people think is beautiful or structurally strong, then I want the ugliest dog out there.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

I know next to nothing about showing, still learning tons about GSDs and being a dog owner in general, but the way that dog's hocks lay flat on the ground just can't be a "good thing", can it? It just seemed to me that, even if he otherwise is a stellar dog, that has to be considered one severe defect to detract from his chances of winning.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Doesn't matter what I think of it. The judge that day liked him. 

I could present pictures of my own animals that paint them in a poor light and people could run with it. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog is no where near close to the standard . That is what the issue is .
No compartments for an ideal asl , an ideal wgsl -- just one ideal for a fully functional, healthy, GSD .

seems the people with other breeds look on in wonderment at some of the aberrant conformation, embraced by some of the GSD fancy.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Then people need to bring out their own animals to show if they don't like it. That's what I did. I'm doing ok for myself. 

It's harder to get a look for my keeper bitch, with her being more moderate and correctly sized. She's also dark, which isn't favored. 

I'll finish her. It'll just take longer. 

Can't complain about a lack of change if you aren't going to involve yourself


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Xeph said:


> Doesn't matter what I think of it. The judge that day liked him.
> 
> I could present pictures of my own animals that paint them in a poor light and people could run with it. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle


I agree about the truth always lying somewhere in the middle. And as others have pointed out, this particular article was intended to be inflammatory. His conformation just looked so aberrant. And I will say it did make me want to be able to do better myself some day! But let's call that a 10 year plan, if I'm lucky


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So this dog has a good temperament, that is great, but what about those hocks touching the floor? That isn't normal in any breed. So my question to those that think this dog is the standard, ard those hocks normal and would you want a dog with those hocks?

I'm not a show person, not even a little bit, but if I seen that dog on the street with those hocks I would honestly feel sorry for him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Then people need to bring out their own animals to show if they don't like it. That's what I did. I'm doing ok for myself.


I truly believe that there needs to be a requirement for working titles as well. Whether through the GSDCA or the AKC if the GSDCA will not. Balance needs to be stressed at the higher levels.

My understanding is the breeder has quite a few dogs herding. I know at least one is going for its BH soon.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I truly believe that there needs to be a requirement for working titles as well.


It's never going to happen. Even if it did, there are midnight trials in Europe (and here), and it would still occur.

I herd with my dogs, as well as do agility. I have a friend that will hopefully be taking my keeper bitch to the upper levels of obedience for me.

The AKC will never (technically can never) require titles for breeding. They are a registry, not a warden. Those choices belong to individual parent clubs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I didn't say they should require titles for breeding. I said they should require working titles as well. I meant to say incorporate the working titles as a requirement to show in conformation at those higher levels (just didn't finish my thought! Sorry!)

The reasoning of AKC is just a registry doesn't fly. If they are just a truly just registry then they should not sanction shows nor have any part in any way including sanctioning judges. That should be 100% on the breed clubs. 

I don't disagree that midnight trials are occurring, and will continue to do, so but I think just as many people are honest and would do it. You can not improve on a breed when only half of what makes the breed is being tested.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

*shrugs* People just have to rely on those who are doing things with their dogs.

I have several dogs from my first litter involved in multiple venues. Waiting for money to improve here, but I should have three dogs going for their HTs next year, undecided if i will do the PT...I will have three dogs to prepare for trial for their A-course started title (mother and two puppies).


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

It's not even feasible to require other titles to show in conformation. Not with the AKC point system. You don't get a rating every time you enter. 30 dogs can show up, and TWO get points (one dog, one bitch). That's it. All the other class animals go home with nothing.

Dogs can start showing at 6 months of age. Most are not truly ready for sport trialing at that age. Best you can do is the RN and the CGC really. People aren't going to sit on their dogs for a year or more before they start getting them out, and show entries would be in the toilet.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

The AKC standard needs to be changed. 90 degrees of hind angulation is too much. Period.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jackie - I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to have a discussion with you on bettering the system. It will never be any better if people just throw up their hands and say "never going to happen'.

As far as people sitting on their dogs for a year or more...That's what happens under the SV system and it seems to work just fine. In fact, the SV is now requiring hips and elbows to pass to trial at the WUSV. It's also on the table to require the breed survey to participate. The SV is doing all the things I'm suggesting. So why is it not possible to enact changes in the AKC and parent clubs in the same manner?

"the AKC point system" but it's just a registry? Do you not see the conflict I see? Then maybe the AKC point system needs to change.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Guardyan said:


> The AKC standard needs to be changed. 90 degrees of hind angulation is too much. Period.


Doesn't the AKC standard come from the GSDCA? And isn't the GSDCA a full member of the WUSV? So is there a different standard? Or is there just that much difference in the interpretation?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I'm not arguing. Just responding. I'm also being realistic. The system isn't going to change, so you have to change what is in it. That's not going to happen just griping on the side lines.



> As far as people sitting on their dogs for a year or more...That's what happens under the SV system


But they can still enter conformation shows as baby puppies and get a rating.

The system is so vastly different as to not even be comparable.



> "the AKC point system" but it's just a registry? Do you not see the conflict I see? Then maybe the AKC point system needs to change


Also not going to happen. The point system has been around for decades, and the way the system is set up is part of what makes AKC AKC. There can be talk of change, sure, but it needs to be within the realms of reality.

AKC has shows going on almost every day of the year. We have an all breed system, not a specialty system (Which is what the SV is...they deal with ONE breed of dog). There are really only two big all breed shows in this country. Westminster and Eukanuba. Some may count the National Dog Show, but, most don't.

And the "big show" every year for most serious breeders is their national specialty, not the televised show. So it all comes back to the parent clubs and them needing to decide what requirements they put in place

ETA:
We posted at the same time



> Doesn't the AKC standard come from the GSDCA?


Yes



> And isn't the GSDCA a full member of the WUSV?


Yes



> So is there a different standard? Or is there just that much difference in the interpretation?


The standards are different.

AKC standard calls for matching fore and hindquarter angles of 90 degrees with a height to length ration of 10:8.5, SV standard calls for matching angles of around 120 degrees, and they are looking for a dog that, while still longer than tall, is shorter bodied than the ratio the AKC standard has set


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Xeph said:


> So it all comes back to the parent clubs and them needing to decide what requirements they put in place


And in my first post, I did say thru the GSDCA. So then lets discuss that. How do they enact changes within the club create a better balance?

If the GSDCA is a full member of the WUSV but creating its own standards then it need to have its membership revoked from the WUSV. Period. They are creating a different breed if the standard is different.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> How do they enact changes within the club create a better balance?


Ha. Hahahaha. Ha. Haha.

They don't. It's an issue that has been hashed over again and again. They are happy with things as they are, in terms of the standard. "This is a free country! If you want all the rules, go to Germany!" is a frequent argument. The membership does not support adding any sort of sport requirement, and point to things like the AOE and PAM if that's what you want.



> If the GSDCA is a full member of the WUSV but creating its own standards then it need to have its membership revoked from the WUSV


Clearly the WUSV has no intention of doing that. I do not understand the ins and outs of the agreement with the GSDCA and WUSV, I only know that it is complicated and convoluted from what people have tried to explain to me over the years.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This discussion is pointless. 

First, I don't appreciate your "Ha. Hahahaha. Ha. Haha." That adds nothing to a discussion.

Second, if there are different standards, then it's a different breed that looks similar. If there is no desire to prove a working dog can work, then what is being produced can not be discussed as apples to apples.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Look folks, it is what it is. People are too vested in these dogs to change. In my classes, I explain that the German Shepherd is analogous to a pair of " Jeans". In the beginning this pant was a very durable working pant used for a variety of tasks. As the years have moved on breeders created these " designer " jeans for social functions and events. These jeans were not created to be durable and tough enough to be used by working classes on daily basis. But they became popular with a certain segment of population as the " looks and the functions" of the jeans were changed. Today you can get both types of jeans at a store, but it's not hard to determine the difference in the two. Not casting dispersions at either, just acknowledging the fact of the existence. If you want a dog for stressful work or serious endeavors, you get one, if you want one for social events and fun sports, you get the other. Both dogs can be great pets, it is what it is!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> First, I don't appreciate your "Ha. Hahahaha. Ha. Haha." That adds nothing to a discussion.


I think you misinterpreted what my laughing was about. I wasn't laughing at the question, but rather the idea that people in the club could agree that perhaps we should make a move towards doing more with our dogs.

They don't.

At all.

That's one of the reasons why there is Select and Select Excellent given at the national. Select is given to dogs that are not OFA H/E, Select Excellent is given to the dogs that are (A Select dog can become Select Excellent after they get their OFA scores).


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> Look folks, it is what it is. People are too vested in these dogs to change. In my classes, I explain that the German Shepherd is analogous to a pair of " Jeans". In the beginning this pant was a very durable working pant used for a variety of tasks. As the years have moved on breeders created these " designer " jeans for social functions and events. These jeans were not created to be durable and tough enough to be used by working classes on daily basis. But they became popular with a certain segment of population as the " looks and the functions" of the jeans were changed. Today you can get both types of jeans at a store, but it's not hard to determine the difference in the two. Not casting dispersions at either, just acknowledging the fact of the existence. If you want a dog for stressful work or serious endeavors, you get one, if you want one for social events and fun sports, you get the other. Both dogs can be great pets, it is what it is!


I don't disagree with you here. It's disappointing, but there isn't a dog from any one line that can do every single thing I want to do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Look folks, it is what it is. People are too vested in these dogs to change. In my classes, I explain that the German Shepherd is analogous to a pair of " Jeans". In the beginning this pant was a very durable working pant used for a variety of tasks. As the years have moved on breeders created these " designer " jeans for social functions and events. These jeans were not created to be durable and tough enough to be used by working classes on daily basis. But they became popular with a certain segment of population as the " looks and the functions" of the jeans were changed. Today you can get both types of jeans at a store, but it's not hard to determine the difference in the two. Not casting dispersions at either, just acknowledging the fact of the existence. If you want a dog for stressful work or serious endeavors, you get one, if you want one for social events and fun sports, you get the other. Both dogs can be great pets, it is what it is!


Now THAT is the best analogy I've ever seen!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quoting Xeph 
"Then people need to bring out their own animals to show if they don't like it. That's what I did. I'm doing ok for myself" 
Firstly I am complaining because of a change. Go back into the GSD Reviews and the dogs were very similar to direct German imports right up until the early to mid 70's and then there was a landslide of change in North America and Germany , not for the better, at the hands of the Martin brothers and Moses .
Why in the beginning you had Bihari, Loeb , Mann , Migliori and even juggernaut Covy-Tucker Hill all with good basic dogs with a bit of an "American" touch by which I mean a pretty attractive dog . If you were to go to the Covy-Tucker Hill website you would be able to see an unfolding from balanced to extreme - all within a 20 year period . Reno of Lakeside was probably at the tipping point. 
I was also privileged to sit with Ann Mesdag who gave me a pretty good tutorial - training my eye, asking me to evaluate each entry when we were at one of the bigger "Nationals". 
Xeph said ""Can't complain about a lack of change if you aren't going to involve yourself "

so this is not involved ?

I handled dogs in the "American" show ring -- put my own out there -- had a few champions which would rate well against the standard . One is Carmspack Most . I'll have to get Saphire to take a picture . Closest resemblance would be to Yoncalla's Mike, or his better brother Wilhelm a d Winterzeit.
Had Best in Breeds, same dog same day , High in Trial .
Major points - finished in 3 shows , all majors .
Bred ROMC bitches .
Showed under SV system. 
Handled under all-breed judges and specialty.
Was a card carrying member of the GSDCofA and GSDCofC - got all the Reviews , Red Books etc right up until the late 90's .

I did go to the National Specialty GSDCofC . Dwindling entries . 

In addition to constant information about structure from friend Linda Shaw, and her book which I have added to my reference library - I do have von Stephanitz , Lanting's, Barwig's, Willis' , Elliot, Wooton, book titles 
Structure in Action , other matrial Canine Cineradiography, SV magazines, Reviews , GSD Quarterly, and now Shaw's new entry.

Structure matters . It matters for work.

The structure exhibited by show lines - Am and German , are not functional , not durable, have a negative impact on the ability to perform in work . 

We need to see some firebrand youngsters get in there and overturn the current status quo powers that be. 

Education. Still involved with this , so clearly not sitting at the side lines.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I am currently re-reading "Working Dogs" by Humphries (1924). A fascinating record of a breeding plan that wanted to produce dogs that could "work" (in the real world) and still show. 
In my opinion, there aren't many breeding plans based on producing real world work dogs that can also enter the show ring. The split has driven a real gap in the German shepherd. Unfortunately, the younger population of dog lovers do not care to get involved in a past- time that is so full of egos and mistrust. And it is seen by the dwindling numbers in shows and sport. Sad but true.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When we take photos with our digital camera, we take 160, throw out 152. Some are butts and tails. Some show the dog in a less than stellar light. 

If I followed around any person's dog on this thread for a number of days with my camera, I could snap some photos that you would not want posted of your dog. 

And yet, that dog in person is beautiful, and he does not look deformed -- you live with him, he is stellar. 

Pictures can lie. 

They can also tell us what to look for in a dog, so that we can maybe see something that is there, but not very noticeable in person. This does not mean the dog is deformed. But it may mean that we may want to breed away from some things and toward others.

By looking at photos of Ninja and Milla, I found that Ninja is a trotter, and Milla is a pacer. By observing them, I found this was true, after realizing it on the photos. Neither dog looks funny in how they move. It just is. 

Now we have heard from someone who has seen the dog in question in person, and they say he is a nice dog, and that his temperament is good. I am sure the locomotion in the ring did not show the dog running in a deformed way.

As for requiring dogs to have a working title to be shown, well, why not require dogs to have a CH to be eligible for other venues. Can't do IPO without a CH on your dogs, and IPO will go down. Why? Because the IPO dogs are not going to get CH points, not all of them, and their owners are not going to want to go through that -- that is not their forte or their passion. 

Show dog owners do not necessarily have a passion for other venues. 

At the nationals, besides the GVs, there are VA dogs named. These dogs have to have their hips and elbows pass OFA and I am not sure what other hoops they have to have in order to qualify. Maybe to be named GV or VA, a dog ought to have some qualifications besides the show ring, a TT, a CD or CDx, the whole nine yards for health screenings, and progeny that have either points in conformation or performance. 

I think that might be good for American Bred dogs. But I am not going to breed to them even if they do all these things. I like the German show line dogs. So it doesn't matter to me at all. 

And all the WL people aren't going to breed to them either. The dogs can be herding champions, like Dallas was, or Agility or Obedience, but that will not make WL people want to use them as stud dogs. Nor would they, the owners of the VA dogs want to breed to the working line dogs. 

It just isn't happening.

For show line people to come on here and diss your dogs because they do not have CH before their names, well, that would go over like a ton of bricks, but over and over the working line folks think that they can _fix_ the show lines by requiring titles. 

It is pointless really. I wish everyone could just be happy with the dogs that they like, and let others be happy with the dogs that they like. It is the feeling of inferiority that spurs people to point out the negatives in others. Somehow it makes them feel good about theirs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I think you misinterpreted what my laughing was about. I wasn't laughing at the question, but rather the idea that people in the club could agree that perhaps we should make a move towards doing more with our dogs.
> 
> They don't.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that explanation. Internet is hard to interpret!

So if the Excellent require health testing, why not had working titles to that as well? It could be agility, obedience, herding. Just something in addition to show the dog has some working ability.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The simple answer is that the old guard doesn't want to do that. They instead award dogs with a select title the title of AOE if they get a performance title in an approved sport. 

I wish they required a higher level title for attaining an AOE, but things like an RN suffice :-/

I am personally going after herding championships with my dogs, but that will take several years to complete.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's a shame they set the bar so low. It should be a high level title. Novice titles should not even be an option.

And I saw the pictures of your dogs herding on the facebook page. They looked good!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Xeph said:


> > As far as people sitting on their dogs for a year or more...That's what happens under the SV system
> 
> 
> But they can still enter conformation shows as baby puppies and get a rating.


Just for clarification, the ratings for baby puppies does not count nor does the rating for adult untitled dogs. A dog must be at least a year to receive a G or SG that counts towards the breed survey. People show in the puppy classes and the adult untitled class for experience. So, people would still have that options of showing their puppies for experience, but could not earn points or championships until they were at least a year (which really is still too young). 

And, yes, I realize it isn't going to ever change.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> That's a shame they set the bar so low. It should be a high level title. Novice titles should not even be an option.
> 
> And I saw the pictures of your dogs herding on the facebook page. They looked good!!


I do not disagree with you. To be honest, Jax, even with our different preferences in dogs, we really agree more than we disagree.

I am glad you understood my explanation about my earlier response. I certainly didn't want you to think I was laughing at you when that was not the case.

The stud dog owner of my puppies and I have been doing a lot of work together to get my dogs out and in the public eye (and the eye of breeders). We've been doing a lot of proving people wrong and are trying to enact change of our own (even though we also do not agree on everything).

Progress is slow, but we're trying.

Her dog (sire of my two litters) recently went Select Excellent at the national...owner handled. He was BOS at Westminster this past February...owner handled. He was finished...owner handled. He has ended up in the Top 10 for the breed...owner handled.

After being told it couldn't be done.

He has also seen sheep, and LOVES sheep. She will be doing his HT at least, so mother, father, and several puppies from their litter will be working/have been worked on stock.

Thank you for the comment on my dogs. I take great pride in their willingness to be on stock. They truly enjoy it, and seeing that talent come to the fore is really something special.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

lhczth said:


> Just for clarification, the ratings for baby puppies does not count nor does the rating for adult untitled dogs. A dog must be at least a year to receive a G or SG that counts towards the breed survey. People show in the puppy classes and the adult untitled class for experience. So, people would still have that options of showing their puppies for experience, but could not earn points or championships until they were at least a year (which really is still too young).
> 
> And, yes, I realize it isn't going to ever change.


Oh, I understand they don't count...but that doesn't prevent people from listing them on the dog's name when they get them. Hence why it's not the same.

It's not that I even disagree with your assessment, really...it's just not feasible/possible with the system we have. People are not going to pay $60 for a weekend where they go home with literally nothing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Xeph said:


> People are not going to pay $60 for a weekend where they go home with literally nothing.


and there is the problem right there. They look at it as going home with literally nothing and it being all win/lose. We look at it as getting the rating from the judge and input on the faults/strengths of our dogs so we can breed in an educated way while we put the emphasis on the working titles.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> We look at it as getting the rating from the judge and input on the faults/strengths of our dogs so we can breed in an educated way while we put the emphasis on the working titles.


But we don't get that stuff at an AKC. No critiques, no words. Zip. You walk in the ring, get your two minutes, and you either leave with points, or you don't.

You DO go home with nothing in the AKC venue.

People spend a lot of money to get that purple ribbon with nothing else attached to it.

The SV style of showing also has people exhibiting to breeder judges. When I go to a show, the judge I'm showing to that day could be a breeder of Terriers.

A judge I'm showing to next month is/was a breeder of Dobermans. Another judge I showed to a few weeks back breeds Terriers.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Xeph said:


> But we don't get that stuff at an AKC. No critiques, no words. Zip. You walk in the ring, get your two minutes, and you either leave with points, or you don't.
> 
> You DO go home with nothing in the AKC venue.
> 
> ...


I understand. That's what I'm saying. That, I feel, is the break down. 

So pin the dog the judge feels is best. Give the points. But give input, based on the breed standard, and a rating for the other dogs. 

Educate the judges on all breed standards.

There are so many small things, that lead to large things, that an be fixed if people were open to it.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> There are so many small things, that lead to large things, that an be fixed if people were open to it.


Do not disagree


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have always said that the biggest impediment to the breed are conformation Judges. In Germany, though they are knowledgable of working temperament, they have sold out to the almighty " Euro" that is very profitable by continuing to breed for type and character that appeals to the outside world that is ignorant often of the breed or standard. In America, we have all breed shows with Judges that are sometimes never have ever bred a German Shepherd litter, much less understand the nuances of the temperament; and Specialty show Judges that 80% have never titled a dog to any advanced working title to have a semblance of a clue as to true working temperament. In fact, you actually have Specialty Judges that are so ignorant that they believe that the working title created to evaluate the temperament of the breed makes dogs viscous. :crazy: now why would I WANT to show my dog under a person with that knowledge base???


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

Saphire said:


> Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: GSD winner "among the worst I have ever seen" says world's leading locomotion expert


The thing is this dog isn't actually being allowed to move fluidly he was ready to take of at one point and he was stooped dead in his tracks. Hes being restrained and thrown off balance by his handler.
That is one Gorgeous Dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Look folks, it is what it is. People are too vested in these dogs to change. In my classes, I explain that the German Shepherd is analogous to a pair of " Jeans". In the beginning this pant was a very durable working pant used for a variety of tasks. As the years have moved on breeders created these " designer " jeans for social functions and events. These jeans were not created to be durable and tough enough to be used by working classes on daily basis. But they became popular with a certain segment of population as the " looks and the functions" of the jeans were changed. Today you can get both types of jeans at a store, but it's not hard to determine the difference in the two. Not casting dispersions at either, just acknowledging the fact of the existence. If you want a dog for stressful work or serious endeavors, you get one, if you want one for social events and fun sports, you get the other. Both dogs can be great pets, it is what it is!



This is a great analogy. I'm going to have to steal this.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

J-Boo said:


> And I will say it did make me want to be able to do better myself some day! But let's call that a 10 year plan, if I'm lucky


Oh boy, I have a lot of posts to catch up on in here! But I just realized my post sounded like I could improve on the breed in 10 years - what I actually meant was it would be at least that long probably before I was in a position to even start. Just the one dog for now, and she won't be involved in conformation.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Apexk9 said:


> The thing is this dog isn't actually being allowed to move fluidly he was ready to take of at one point and he was stooped dead in his tracks. Hes being restrained and thrown off balance by his handler.
> That is one Gorgeous Dog.


That's not what I see at all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Everyone into showing knows who this dog is, and who his breeder is. Is it really the policy of this board to go off on dogs, and their breeders? My guess is the owner or breeder probably feels that the judge judging the nationals is a better authority than a bunch of internet junkies, so they probably don't care, but I think this is really in poor taste.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

FTR this isn't nationals. It's just an all breed dog show.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" that the judge judging the nationals is a better authority than a bunch of internet junkies,"

which category does this man belong to ? "This winner is "among the worst I have ever seen," says one of the world's leading canine locomotion expert, Professor Dr Martin Fischer, author of Dogs in Motion, published by the VDH (German Kennel Club)"

oh and then there are the AR's groups . 

unfortunately this particular dog has caught the attention and become a bit of a poster boy --


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

maybe I look at things the wrong way-maybe he isn't a well bred dog-but someone owns him and hopefully loves him and its sad that he won and people are just ripping him apart-maybe I am just overly sensitive-lol


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

While I don't care for the type , he seems like an improvement in being much tighter than others I have seen. 

My take is that it is a different direction, that plenty of people are breeding working dogs and GSDs are still being used for police service, and that as long as the dogs are healthy and not in pain it is their right to breed how they like. Rather than run down a showline version of the GSD, others need to be great ambassadors for the breed. JMO


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well to be fair, a good portion of this thread was discussing how to change the AKC system and not even about the dog. It was about incorporating some kind of performance requirement and how the standards and systems differ. And it was a good discussion with Jackie's valuable input.

And Holland - No, you are not being overly sensitive. Yes, the owner and breeder are very hurt. I'm acquaintances with the breeder. He's a good guy. Very much cares about his dogs. And he's pretty upset over the absolute trashing this dog has gotten. Is the dog my cup? No. And Frank knows that. But he's Franks cup. As I stated at the start of the thread, I know he has at least one going for a BH. That's a start in the right direction! And my understanding is he has several herding with their owners. We've also discussed his dogs in IPO but that's his story to tell so I won't repeat his thoughts. Not that they were bad, as he is NOT against IPO and has titled a WGSL. It's more a matter of the perception IPO people have of ASL. I wish he would do it and, like Jackie said in her blog post, prove people wrong. Or learn where the holes in his breedings might be. Either way, he would win.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> It's more a matter of the perception IPO people have of ASL


Ding.

I have started talking to people about sending one of my dogs to them to do IPO. I don't have anything against the sport itself, but I'm certainly not going to spend an entire day listening to people belittle American dogs while I'm *right there*.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Xeph said:


> but I'm certainly not going to spend an entire day listening to people belittle American dogs while I'm *right there*.



I have not had that experience. I've been places where you just know the dog is not cut out for the sport, or you see a dog so shut down from the owner not allowing the dog to think. And I only saw people cheer for the dog when it finally barked or bit the rag. Overall, people are very supportive of the dog.

Egos? Oh yes. lol There are egos. But, in general, people are supportive of new handlers and a good dog is a good dog. 
What they don't like to see is a dog not cut out for the sport and the handler insisting it is. It's cruel to the dog. 

As you said...go prove them wrong


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We really discuss our viewpoints about AKC judging, titling, etc. outside of discussions concerning individual dogs. This post was created to dis the American line and the AKC conformation judging, and used a specific example as a beginning point. 

I don't think that should be allowed on this site. Individual dogs have owners, breeders, etc. 

If we did this same thing to a pet dog, or a rescue dog, a police dog, an IPO dog, that wouldn't fly here.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> Pictures can lie.


My question is, if a dog doesn't walk on it's hocks normally, (which seems to be what some people are saying?) why make it stand that way in the ring?


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

So is the handler not experienced with GSDs?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Just my take: people breed what sells. If none of these dogs' pups sell, they won't breed them anymore. It is all about the "market". And people buy whatever wins in the show rings so it is very hard to stop this practice of breeding crippled looking dogs. I am not bashing the one dog that was used as an example. He can't help it and should be loved, which he is, from what I understand.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I have not had that experience


I'm glad you haven't, because it feels terrible


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I'm glad you haven't, because it feels terrible


I've had it in AKC though. And yes, it does feel terrible.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

A very enlightening statement in blue.

The reason they don't want "all the rules", I strongly suspect, is because a lot of the breeders know their dogs would fail. Easier to make it sound like they are marching to the beat of a different drum when in fact they just don't want to put the work in to reach the higher bar.

As I am learning first hand it's really hard work to do (in my case) IPO and train, condition for conformation shows under the SV system. Expensive in this country too. 

Typical of the U.S. though. It's why we can't have 'nice things'. Lots of 'big talk' but fear of failure and loss of prestige (possibly income in some cases) is what drives this sort of agenda.



Xeph said:


> <snipped>
> They don't. It's an issue that has been hashed over again and again. They are happy with things as they are, in terms of the standard. *"This is a free country! If you want all the rules, go to Germany!" is a frequent argument.* The membership does not support adding any sort of sport requirement, and point to things like the AOE and PAM if that's what you want.
> 
> <snipped>
> .


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think the purpose of standards and breed surveys is to provide a basis for folks, both knowledgable and unknowledgable, to see and breed for the best in the breed. When we get to the point that accurate criticism cannot be endured, then the breed will and has suffered. If we just condone anything in assessing the breed because of likes or feelings, are we really beneficial to the breed??? This breed has a wide spectrum of colors, types, and temperaments that are acceptable, but the standards and breed surveys try to ensure that we are not venturing outside the realm of issues that would compromise our great breed. When folks will not accept valid critical judgement the breed suffers.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I strongly suspect, is because a lot of the breeders know their dogs would fail


I will tell you straight up this isn't true. They absolutely believe their dogs can and will do IPO...but they have absolutely zero interest. Some of them once did it, but no longer care to, others are, as mentioned earlier, ignorant about the sport, and still others just don't have the time and money to dedicate to more than one venue.

What's a typical entry fee for a single SV show? $60? You go, you get your rating, you go home. You got something.

Spend the same thing for an AKC show weekend, you can still go home with nada.

I know IPO is expensive. Believe me, I do. But so is AKC showing. It takes thousands of dollars to finish a champion with significantly less frequent returns.

I've been herding this year, and I drive 3 hours round trip to do so (I am lucky). $30/lesson/dog adds up right quick, especially if I go more than once a week.

I am very very lucky in that I have found myself a group of people that can work together and get dogs worked and shown, but it sure takes a lot of effort. Not effort many can put in. My health issues also make things difficult, though I do my best.

My friends and I are all young (28-30), but there aren't a lot of us. Most people are older, and thus even less willing to get out and "do." They've already done it...40+ years ago. They're tired. They just wanna go and show.


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## Sofie and Miya's Mom (Dec 21, 2015)

I'm new to the forum, but not necessarily to German Shepherds. Funny how my two breeds of choice, the gsd and the husky, have so much in common. What that is, the strong separation amongst the working lines and the show lines, and how in both breeds a very distinguished difference in the looks of wl and sl. I do lean towards the working lines of both breeds. Why? Because the working lines, to me, have seemed to stay truer to what the original bred dog looks like. I can not find the original article but here is a link of what I am talking about. (Admin, I am sorry if I am not allowed to post links, remove if I am not allowed).
How a century of breeding 'improvement' has turned once-healthy dogs into deformed animals | Daily Mail Online

I am not saying I have one iota of knowledge on show lines, nor really all that much knowledge on work lines. But I have to say, I do not understand why in both breeds, and I am sure other breeds have the same issue, there is such a huge difference in looks. As if they are 2 separate breeds, that is called a German shepherd, or Siberian Husky. 

When I went looking for a great breeder, I often times asked for a straight back not sloped, people didn't know what I was asking for, so then I did more research and started looking at the working lines, since to me they seem truer to what the original bred gsd looked like. 

Please do not bash me. To me in either case of breed, you want a dog that conforms to a standard, and can show and work, since really both of these breeds were bred to work. There are a few in the husky world who are trying to get the husky back to it's normal structure, so it can do just as well in the ring as well as out on a course sledding. My gsd I selected, in my eyes, is one step in that direction, a nice blend of a working line with a show line. She will eventually be a protection dog for me, and will not compete in sports, nor be in the show ring, so, yea, she is a pet. 

I just would love to see the husky and gsd have a beautiful blend of both lines, look more like the original dog they were, and stop on this nonsense of having 2 separate standards for the same breed. It's just my 2 cents. But I remember back in 1983 or 84, and a friend of our family brought in a pink papered female show line, and I was so surprised at how small she was, and more importantly the very pronounce slope of her back, and thinking, how is she comfortable walking. I was a young teenager then, but to me she just wasn't the gsd I had thought in my mind to look like.

I appreciate the 9 pages of conversation. It gave me a lot of info on the breed. The biggest thing I can say though is, on any other forum, this 9 pages would have ended up a flame fest, and it didn't. Glad to be on a forum, where people are mature enough to have respect for eachother, even when people may have different opinions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sofie and Miya's Mom said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ent-turned-healthy-dogs-deformed-animals.html
> 
> But I have to say, I do not understand why in both breeds, and I am sure other breeds have the same issue, there is such a huge difference in looks. As if they are 2 separate breeds, that is called a German shepherd, or Siberian Husky.
> 
> .


Not just these breeds. ALL working breeds. ALL. Not just in looks but drives as well. Go look at a show lab vs. a field lab. Not even the same animal.

Because one side is bred only for looks and the other for work. So each side ignores the other half.

At least the German Shepherds still have the SV, and that hte USCA adheres to the SV in that the Americans will work to get the breed survey. Still very different looking dogs from the working to the West German show lines. But still within the standard.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's expensive to show period.

Then to compete in a working venue is going to be extra, natürlich.

My comment was directed more at it's more expensive in the U.S. in general for various reasons as to costs.

You know what, I've worked for a couple of AKC show kennels. 

For the most part it's easier and less expensive to show conformation only.

That, btw, is an entirely different topic from AKC SL breeders who DO make the extra effort voluntarily (and more power to them I say). 

On the whole, for all working breeds in the AKC, it is *not* incentivizing ASL breeders to put working titles on their dogs.

Therefore many of them will take the path of least resistance and cost.

This problem, in regards to the U.S. vs Germany, is a valid observation, the disdain of "go to Germany if you want all the rules" is very telling. It just is.



Xeph said:


> I will tell you straight up this isn't true. They absolutely believe their dogs can and will do IPO...but they have absolutely zero interest. Some of them once did it, but no longer care to, others are, as mentioned earlier, ignorant about the sport, and still others just don't have the time and money to dedicate to more than one venue.
> 
> What's a typical entry fee for a single SV show? $60? You go, you get your rating, you go home. You got something.
> 
> ...


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## Sofie and Miya's Mom (Dec 21, 2015)

@Jax....Yes I have read about the differences with the wl vs sl Labs, Show lines are much heavier, is probably the most obvious distinction. I guess, what I was trying to ask, since many of you on this thread, specifically, are much more knowledgeable than myself, is why is there such a drastic difference in structure to the wl and sl gsd's? Other breeds, husky and lab for instance is about size, wl huskies have more of a leg vs sl which appear shorter leg. With gsd's there is a significant difference in the way they look. Not just in size but in the appearance of their backs and hind end, sl look very different than wl. I have shown pics of sl gsd's to people who are not familiar with gsd's and ask is that really a gsd? Because to the untrained people, or the common everyday people, who are only seeing byb gsd's, a show line doesn't really resemble what most think of when you say I have a gsd. Hmmm, does that make sense? haha, I know I may sound ignorant, so excuse me on that. But for me, any breed, really needs to be a blend of the beauty of a show mixed with the ability to work. Whether or not one chooses to just show or just work, really isn't the conversation that was brought up in this thread. I personally think it is much more in shouldn't all avenues of breed standard be the same? Again, I am not all that skilled in terminology of different sl and wl titles, but imo, all avenues of descriptions of conformation of any breed should be the same no matter what you do with your dog. Then maybe the disappointment that some people have wouldn't be there. I love gsd's, I think they are all beautiful, and I think it is awesome that some of you show yours and some of you work them, and still some do sports. They are a versatile breed. Thank you to all of you that posted here, it did shed some light for me, on titles, and the differences of the lines.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Though....I do agree, it's probably not going to change.

I don't like to bash lines in general either.

FWIW this is what I do if someone asks for a recommendation for a breeder for any line of GSD. 

I tell them go to a breeder that shows and titles their dog and has dogs out there doing what you want your dog to do.

Whether it's agility, or SAR, or Service, protection, herding, IPO, tracking....even for a companion at least have the dogs doing well in OB trials.

That way at least people are supporting breeders who DO something with their dogs and aren't BYBs.

Also, FWIW, the last AKC show I was at, I hung around the GSDs (of course ) and one of the owner/handlers had a SAR certified dog.


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## Sofie and Miya's Mom (Dec 21, 2015)

Gwen, great advice. Funny, and I did not know this until I joined. My breeder is a member of this forum. As far as I know all his dogs work. My Sofie's lines, on both sides have all been titled. I dug deep to find the dog that would fit my minds eye on what the perfect gsd looked like, plus have a good temperament, great hips, and working ability. I know she has faults that, if I could have, would not make her a great candidate for showing. Overall though the show dogs are seen by more people than the working dogs, because of televised shows. If I didn't live in the middle of no where, I would probably have a bigger desire to do sport work with her, when she is older. Instead, I think I will build my own agility course so both of my girls can have added fun.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sofie and Miya's Mom said:


> @Jax....Yes I have read about the differences with the wl vs sl Labs, Show lines are much heavier, is probably the most obvious distinction. I guess, what I was trying to ask, since many of you on this thread, specifically, are much more knowledgeable than myself, is why is there such a drastic difference in structure to the wl and sl gsd's?


IMO, because of what I stated above. 1/2 is breeding for conformation and 1/2 is breeding for work.

So the showline judges pick what they like and people breed to it. WGSL are red and black, they all look the same within a spectrum.

AKC judges picked what they like and people breed to it. ASL all look the same within a spectrum.

Working line people breed for traits. They could care less about color, if in standard, so you have blacks, bi's, sables, b/t. They don't care as much about a perfect body, as long as in standard. They want defense drive, prey drive, hunt drive. they want a working dog. For whatever reason, they did not find that within the show lines so what developed was a body style more typical of original German Shepherds.

That's just my opinion, as new as I am to the sport and dogs.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'll give it a try, step it back in history a bit.... 

The simplest answer is, during the industrial revolution people began showing dogs. At first it was just the wealthier people who could afford to 'exhibit' their dogs. There was a time when an animal had to earn it's keep around the farm or even the home or factory. Additionally some of the work done by dogs became less necessary or not needed as well due to modern conveniences. 

Owning a dog to just be a 'pet' was a luxury most could not afford, prior to the Victorian era. As time went on more people were able to afford having dogs as pets and didn't actually need the dogs to do work, which fed into more breeding for show ring only. So they started competing more on looks of the dogs. A breeder had to differentiate him/herself in order to win, the competition became conformational 'fads' if you will. These fads can become extremes and as Jax mentioned, GSDs aren't the only one. One of the worst examples of this IMO is the Old English Bulldog. 



Sofie and Miya's Mom said:


> @Jax....Yes I have read about the differences with the wl vs sl Labs, Show lines are much heavier, is probably the most obvious distinction. I* guess, what I was trying to ask, since many of you on this thread, specifically, are much more knowledgeable than myself, is why is there such a drastic difference in structure to the wl and sl gsd's? Other breeds, husky and lab for instance is about size, wl huskies have more of a leg vs sl which appear shorter leg.* With gsd's there is a significant difference in the way they look. Not just in size but in the appearance of their backs and hind end, sl look very different than wl. I have shown pics of sl gsd's to people who are not familiar with gsd's and ask is that really a gsd? Because to the untrained people, or the common everyday people, who are only seeing byb gsd's, a show line doesn't really resemble what most think of when you say I have a gsd. Hmmm, does that make sense? haha, I know I may sound ignorant, so excuse me on that. But for me, any breed, really needs to be a blend of the beauty of a show mixed with the ability to work. Whether or not one chooses to just show or just work, really isn't the conversation that was brought up in this thread. I personally think it is much more in shouldn't all avenues of breed standard be the same? Again, I am not all that skilled in terminology of different sl and wl titles, but imo, all avenues of descriptions of conformation of any breed should be the same no matter what you do with your dog. Then maybe the disappointment that some people have wouldn't be there. I love gsd's, I think they are all beautiful, and I think it is awesome that some of you show yours and some of you work them, and still some do sports. They are a versatile breed. Thank you to all of you that posted here, it did shed some light for me, on titles, and the differences of the lines.


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## Benny and Me (Dec 21, 2015)

A couple of years ago I would have bet any amount of money that you couldn't give me an ASL GSD. I bad mouthed them. I had a WGSL breeder picked out for my next dog. Then I followed the progress of an ASL breeder as she showed AND worked her dogs. I watched her first litter grow into sound, sane, all around show and working dogs. The kind of dog a SGSD is supposed to be IMO. The kind of GSD that I had always wanted. Now I have a very loved, wonderful to work with ASL puppy who so far is everything that I want in a GSD. The bottom line is buy and own what works for you.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There are extremists in every line which only harms that particular line and these extreme breeders should not be the representatives of the breed. There are many breeders out that are striving to make improvements and should not be kept in the shadows. I have not seen an asl walk on their hocks in person ever. Not to sat they are out there but just have not seen it. Much more lime light are shown on asl which make them more prone to judgement as their flaws are widely show cased. Every line has there flaws not one is perfect as this forum would not be so popular. It also doesnt help that there is so much rift between lines I bet the founder of the gsd Max would be disappointed and that it is disheartening. I do love my "asl"and he does not walk on his hocks and is not a couch potatoe.


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