# comment about GSD vs "Shiloh" shepherd-wow



## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Hello All! I have not been on in quite a while, so I wanted to get back into the great info on this site! Recently, I visited my daughter in another state. Her roomate at that time had 3 Shiloh Shepherd dogs. Since I had never seen one, only read about them, I was very interested to see them. The breeders of these dogs tout their large size, good hips, absence of terribly exaggerated hip angulation, & sweet nature. Well, as a previous owner of a wonderful GSD, I was SO disappointed in those Shilohs! yes, they were large & pretty, but had NONE of the regal demeanor of a GSD. They were akin to a GSD with a labrador personality! That is the only way to describe them. Labradors are great dogs, but if you want a GSD, you want the whole package - these dogs had none of the regal, intelligent, intense & devoted feel of the GSD. I am curious what some of the others on the forum have to say about this - anyone else had any exposure to the Shiloh Shepherd?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

From what I understand, Shilohs are a breed of their own. They aren't GSD's, which would explain the differences. But I could be wrong.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think they are purposely bred to appeal to people who want a "large, old-fashioned" GSD like what they remember as kids (when one is six years old, a normal GSD probably look gigantic), but want the mellow laid-back personality of a different breed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDs were one of the main breeds used to produce them. But I think their overall size appeals to a lot of people. 

GSDs command a certain presence. But fear of, relative size, and time sometimes make our perceptions of GSDs smaller today than they were 25-35 years ago, when everyone in the neighborhood was terrified of Condor and King. 

Be that as it may. I think Shilohs are here to stay, and since the size appeals, they are getting popular and some people are breeding them a little haphazardly, so I have heard of them having the quiet docile temperament you saw, and I have heard of the opposite as well. 

However, I have never actually owned one, so I really don't know. And, I guess an owner can have some calm quiet shepherds, and others have crazy hyper shepherds.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I like Shilohs, I have met a couple. But I much prefer the GSD. I like the athleticism of the GSD, and the intelligence. I think a GSD is probably more challenging to raise, but the pay-off is also greater.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

maxtmill said:


> Hello All! I have not been on in quite a while, so I wanted to get back into the great info on this site! Recently, I visited my daughter in another state. Her roomate at that time had 3 Shiloh Shepherd dogs. Since I had never seen one, only read about them, I was very interested to see them. The breeders of these dogs tout their large size, good hips, absence of terribly exaggerated hip angulation, & sweet nature. Well, as a previous owner of a wonderful GSD, I was SO disappointed in those Shilohs! yes, they were large & pretty, but had NONE of the regal demeanor of a GSD. They were akin to a GSD with a labrador personality! That is the only way to describe them. Labradors are great dogs, but if you want a GSD, you want the whole package - these dogs had none of the regal, intelligent, intense & devoted feel of the GSD. I am curious what some of the others on the forum have to say about this - anyone else had any exposure to the Shiloh Shepherd?




Stop looking at them as GSDs and look at them for what they are..SHILOH shepherds. I actually like Shiloh's, but for different reasons than I like GSDs.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Right now I have 2 Shilohs, no they are not GSD's. I can say my dogs don't act like Lab's. My dogs are family pets, I don't compete or anything. I can say they have very simalar traits and issues as GSD's. Like GSD's some Shilohs are weak nerved some not. My male is a scardy dog. My female has seizures so I can't really compare her any other dog, she's one of a kind. Before these dogs we had 2 GSD's one from a byb and the other was a rescue. Growing up my grandparents had Belgian Shepherds & my mom had a GSD. All of my dogs have there own personality & traits.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I also have a Shiloh. Like any breed, you have some that are bred well and some not so much. Don't judge them all based on those 3 you saw though. My avatar is a pic of my Shiloh and I think he is pretty regal looking and in demeanor. No angulation in his back. He's an all around handsome fellow with a great temperament. Very confident dog. He's not perfect. We dealt with digestion issues which is a common affliction with GSDs as well. 

I got the impression on here in the past that many people feel they are calm docile dogs with low energy and lack any drive. I can only speak about my dog but he is the farthest thing from that description. He is very high energy (more so than my Shep/Husky which I didn't think was possible) and has a lot of drive as well. I just started Agility with him and he's doing great. They're not all massive tanks either. My guy is 27" and 81 pounds. Like any dog, you have some with more energy and drive than others, Shilohs included. He's definitely not a Lab either. It all depends on the dog.

I probably won't get another Shiloh but it has nothing to do with the dog, but rather a couple of bad experiences I've had on the people/business end of things.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> From what I understand, Shilohs are a breed of their own. They aren't GSD's, which would explain the differences.


^ This.

My friend has a Shiloh and while I adore him he is just entirely too big for my liking. He's just a big, goofy, happy, energetic dog. He does have some Shepherd traits - he resembles one, he has plenty of energy and yes, he herds - but he is not a Shepherd.


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

AbbyK9 said:


> ^ This.
> 
> My friend has a Shiloh and while I adore him he is just entirely too big for my liking. He's just a big, goofy, happy, energetic dog. He does have some Shepherd traits - he resembles one, he has plenty of energy and yes, he herds - but he is not a Shepherd.


How is he not a shepherd? Happy, goofy, lots of energy and can herd ...... That sounds like a great dog. What is he lacking?

I thought Shiloh are selectively bred GSD. They are GSD ? If you trace back generations you will only see GSD?


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## prophecy (May 29, 2008)

Pepper311 said:


> How is he not a shepherd? Happy, goofy, lots of energy and can herd ...... That sounds like a great dog. What is he lacking?
> 
> I thought Shiloh are selectively bred GSD. They are GSD ? If you trace back generations you will only see GSD?


The shilohs have other breeds in the foundation stock.I have read several breeds amoung them Malamute(hips/size),Pyrs(hips/size),and gsd are the ''primary' foundation breeds.They are currently still developing the breed and GSD are the only breed permitted to mix with the shilohs at this point. At least this is the impression I am getting


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## prophecy (May 29, 2008)

Shiloh Shepherd Information - History of the Breed

Ok correction(see above link)from ISSR.

Malamute,American Shepherd and White Shepherd were the breeds NOT pyrs.(that was for the ''king'' shepherds,sorry)


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> How is he not a shepherd? Happy, goofy, lots of energy and can herd ...... That sounds like a great dog. What is he lacking?


I never said that he was not a great dog nor that he is lacking in any way, but he is not a German Shepherd. 

Aside from the fact that he stands 30" at the withers and weighs approximately 100lbs, he doesn't have the kind of prey / hunt / play drive one should expect from the average German Shepherd. And while yes, he did herd, it took him a while to show any kind of interest in the sheep. 

Overall, he also struck me as lazier (or at least much quicker tiring) than a Shepherd ... when we were out and it was above 60 degrees, he'd find a puddle and lay in it, rather than play with other dogs or continue the hike.



> I thought Shiloh are selectively bred GSD. They are GSD ? If you trace back generations you will only see GSD?


No, as prophecy pointed out, Shilohs are not purely GSD in their background. They have a fair bit of Malamute blood that was used to get the height and build you see in Shilohs today.

Please don't get me wrong - I like Shilohs. I think they're sweet, cuddly dogs, and my friend's Shiloh is certainly no exception to this. I think he's a lovely dog. But, he is not a German Shepherd and I don't think any honest Shiloh breeder should lay claim that they are somehow "preserving" the "original, old-fashioned" German Shepherd. 

When I think of the original German Shepherds, I think of the smaller, lighter dogs of Germany in the 1920's and 1930's, not the "bigger is better" dogs bred in the United States in the 1950's. It's the difference (to me) between the original Rin Tin Tin and the Rin Tin Tin of the 50's TV show whose lines they are continuing now. The original is what a Shepherd is (to me). The 50's version is not. But that's probably for a different discussion.

You'll note I have a Malinois ... I like a smaller dog.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

What I think is funny is that Shiloh breeders like to say their hips are better than GSDs...

OFA disagrees...

Shiloh Shepherd rank #33 19.5%
German Shepherd Dog rank #39 19.0%
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What is an American Shepherd?


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

The way I figure it, if you can breed one of these animals referred to as a "Shiloh Shepherd" to another animal referred to as a "Shiloh Shepherd" and get a litter of puppies that looks and acts like both parents and has similar health to them...and are functionally distinct from other breeds, and adhere to some sort of breed standard...they aren't German Shepherds or even GSD "offshoots" they are a breed of their own.

And that's a good thing. They are a great breed of dog in their own right I am sure (I've never met one but would love to some day, they seem like great dogs) but they are starkly different from the GSD in several ways, and there is no reason to change what the GSD is to accommodate that "vision" of a dog. It is better to have a breed apart for that.

That said I do NOT like the founder, at all, and would not buy a Shiloh from her if I was interested in getting one. She does not have very nice things to say about the GSD, has tried to perpetuate rumors that the GSD was founded from wolves, etc. I don't proclaim to be any sort of GSD expert, not even close, but anyone who has even read a bit of von Stephanitz knows how ridiculous that sounds I'd think.

I know someone who claims to have been to her kennels in the 70s when she was starting all this and claims to have seen something that looked very much like a Czech Wolfdog.

If that's true, that doesn't mean there is any wolf blood in the Shiloh Shepherd today (given their temperament I highly doubt it, the Czech Wolfdog has nothing to compliment the Shiloh Shepherd in that area), but it does explain a possible ulterior motive for spreading those kinds of rumors, if an outcross with the Czech Wolfdogs was attempted.

Said person also has problems with dogs that she perceives are not "real breeds" but then again there are no other stories like this that she has about other "fake breeds" (note those are NOT my words about the Shiloh...I consider them a real breed of dog), so take that with a grain of salt. Just something I heard I cannot vouch for the truth value of it. But I have no real reason to think this person was lying about it, it is not really in their MO to do so.

~

Selzer - usually when I have heard that term it is used in three ways:

1. To reference American-bred GSDs in general
2. To reference American-bred GSD show lines
3. To reference, essentially, GSD-based "farm mutts."

Hope that helps. I suppose you'd have to ask Tina Barber to know for sure :S.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Draugr said:


> That said I do NOT like the founder, at all, and would not buy a Shiloh from her if I was interested in getting one.


Tina Barber, the founder of the Shiloh Shepherd, passed away in May, 2011.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

If I was going to generalize, I would say Shilohs do extremely well as Therapy Dogs and Herders. In my club, this is where they excel. They don't have the temperament for Protection work/Shutzhund etc.... Their size makes them not competitive at Agility although I'm determined to compete and title Jazz. Can't really compare the two breeds. They're very different now.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Tina Barber, the founder of the Shiloh Shepherd, passed away in May, 2011.


Sorry to hear that, I had no clue. Hopefully the other breeders involved with her can carry the vision she had for these dogs forward.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I was in a CGC class with Onyx, a Shiloh breeder was also taking the class. I really liked her female. Her name was True, and she was actually shorter than Onyx. She had a great temperament and was finer boned than most of the Shilohs I'd seen pics of. Her male was bigger though, and died about six months after we went thru the class, not sure why, he was her stud dog for her breeding program. I no longer see any website w/ her kennel, she may have gotten out of breeding. She was not in Tina Barbers corner...
When I got Onyx, Gandalf was in the news for finding a lost boy. I almost searched out Shiloh breeders after seeing how gorgeous he was and that he was a working SAR dog. I ended up adopting Kacie, which gave my need for a long coated GSD a fix!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/ISSR-Shiloh-Shepherd/110987755577


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

they're Shiloh Shepherds not German Shepherds.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

A friend of mine in the Ottawa area phoned me yesterday to let me know that his Shiloh had passed away . He and I had been speaking about diets because this dog was so picky - would not eat chicken at all . An autopsy was done and it was discovered that this dog had an abnormally small sized liver .
This is his second dog this year to pass away from the same problem, last year he lost his boxer due to a heart problem .

is a smaller liver common to Shiloh's?

Carmen


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have met several. The two on our team (owned by one handler) and a pet (same lineage but selected for being a pet) are doing quite well as trailing dogs and have an incredibly nice temperament.....They come from a breeder in Tennessee. I have seen others that were very shy.

In any way, I don't have a problem with the breed. I do have a problem with claims that they were the original GSD as we know that while dogs of this ''type" may have been in the makeup of the breed, they were never the goal of the breed.....I hope the succeed to develop into nice family pet dogs and let the GSDs be bred for the working dog they were intended to be......


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

carmspack said:


> A friend of mine in the Ottawa area phoned me yesterday to let me know that his Shiloh had passed away . He and I had been speaking about diets because this dog was so picky - would not eat chicken at all . An autopsy was done and it was discovered that this dog had an abnormally small sized liver .
> This is his second dog this year to pass away from the same problem, last year he lost his boxer due to a heart problem .
> 
> is a smaller liver common to Shiloh's?
> ...


Carmen, I never heard of that being a problem before but I don't breed. If you don't mind, I'll ask on my Shiloh forum. Many knowledgeable good breeders on there. Let me know if you'd like me to ask.


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

AbbyK9 said:


> I never said that he was not a great dog nor that he is lacking in any way, but he is not a German Shepherd.
> 
> Aside from the fact that he stands 30" at the withers and weighs approximately 100lbs, he doesn't have the kind of prey / hunt / play drive one should expect from the average German Shepherd. And while yes, he did herd, it took him a while to show any kind of interest in the sheep.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up for me. That all makes seances.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> What is an American Shepherd?


I don't know, but I've heard the whites referred to as the "American Shepherd."


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> I don't know, but I've heard the whites referred to as the "American Shepherd."


If you google American shepherd and look at the photos you see a few wgsd and a lot of Australian Shepherd. It's said the Aussie is an American breed.

Kind of like how America is the melting pot of different people. It was also the melting pot of different collie type dogs brought over by immigrants. That how one story goes about the breed.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I don't know, but I've heard the whites referred to as the "American Shepherd."


I don't think I've ever seen white Shepherds referred to as American Shepherds. However, in Europe they are now their own breed, the Swiss Shepherd Dog. I don't know how they suddenly became Swiss but that's how they're now known in Europe.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

AbbyK9 said:


> I don't think I've ever seen white Shepherds referred to as American Shepherds. However, in Europe they are now their own breed, the Swiss Shepherd Dog. I don't know how they suddenly became Swiss but that's how they're now known in Europe.


The Berger Blanc Suisse has it's roots in Switzerland via an imported white coated GSD from the US in the late 1960's. Just as the GSD was given it's name for the country of it's origin, so was the Berger Blanc Suisse. 

I've never heard the term American Shepherd but I have heard American White Shepherd. (AWSA = American White Shepherd Association)


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Thanks for everyone's input on the subject! I researched the Shiloh breed awhile back, & was also as someone else mentioned not impressed with the founder's (Barber) lack of poise & professionalism. She sounded like a nut in some of her writings, to tell you the truth! There are several outbranches of the original group, which are organized much more like you would think a dog organization would be run. The 3 Shilohs I met were from 2 different breeders, & I was really surprised at their soft soft soft temperament - one was really nervous as well. I also read many reports of the Shiloh as being a return to the big healthy GSDs of the past, which is actually inaccurate. I guess I will reserve my final judgement after I meet a few more Shilohs. Very pretty, but not what I expected.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

I have never even heard on a Shiloh Shepherd until I read this post.
Just googled what they look like. Very pretty indeed, but I agree with what others have stated. When you want a GSD you want the whole package.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I suppose they could mean American White Shepherds, American bred GSDs that do better in the All-breed rings, American Bred GSDs that do better in the specialty breed rings, American Bred pet/BYB GSDs -- kind of a nice name for GSDs that follow no standard. Since the founder was pretty anal about size, I doubt she would put anything resembling and Aussie in there.


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## Powell (Oct 13, 2006)

I have met a Shiloh, and was impressed. I can't afford one. 

Heck, I am not going to purchase a GSD either. Now if one turns up at the shelter I'll foster and maybe be a failed foster..... 

Powell


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Stella's Mom said:


> I have never even heard on a Shiloh Shepherd until I read this post.
> Just googled what they look like. Very pretty indeed, but I agree with what others have stated. When you want a GSD you want the whole package.


I guess that's a matter of perspective because I think my Shiloh is the whole package.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

fuzzybunny said:


> I guess that's a matter of perspective because I think my Shiloh is the whole package.


:thumbup:


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

fuzzybunny said:


> I guess that's a matter of perspective because I think my Shiloh is the whole package.


:thumbup:
Some people are missing the posts that say Shiloh's AREN'T GSD's. Saying a Shiloh isn't a good GSD is a moot point.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I've seen several Shiloh Shepherds in obedience class. Beautiful dogs. I'd like one.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I've considered a shiloh for the next time. I want a dog do do therapy work w/ kids and Im not an athlete so i just want a dog to walk ,hike and camp and play w/ . My only fear is if they are oversized how it impacts their span of life. I know they were bred as breed to have gentler or softer temperment then a GSD. I would expect based on their breed description and breed characterics to be different then GSD.


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