# Pedigree Dogs Exposed



## Sasha2008

Did anybody see the BBC documentary entitled Pedigree Dogs Exposed, it was truly shocking. I just watched it last night. Found a link where it is available online. 


http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=44215931


----------



## oelgin

Oh man. This i SO sad


----------



## Sashmom

it was shocking. I cant believe how those judges would think those back legs on the GSD's are normal


----------



## allieg

I'm in the middle of the video and I am speechless.The shepherds looked awefull in the way they walked.


----------



## Emoore

There was a huge long thread about this a month or two ago, I'll see if I can find it. . . .

Ah, here it is!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=791802&page=0&fpart=1


----------



## Sasha2008

oh, I had missed that, thanks for posting Emoore


----------



## mkennels

I have never liked crufts, I just got done watching this and it is very sad, there is no way on this earth and I have american showline, that those dogs on that show could do any job they can barley walk, it is so sad and all those other dogs, you breed for betterment of the breed, less health problems, better temp. not what they are doing, makes me sick


----------



## GranvilleGSD

I watched it a while ago. I was very surprised with the GSDs, I had thought that they didn't have those horribly angled dogs in Europe (being so close to Germany and all), but I guess I was mistaken.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote: I watched it a while ago. I was very surprised with the GSDs, I had thought that they didn't have those horribly angled dogs in Europe (being so close to Germany and all), but I guess I was mistaken.


I was surprised at the very same thing! For some reason I thought it was only some of the American showlines with those traits....


----------



## emjworks05

yes this is very sad!


----------



## RubyTuesday

There was an online discussion where someone was indignant that nobody mentioned the GSD's age which was 5 or 7!!! Apparently the poster considered this to be an advanced age that excused the wobbling, weak, damaged looking movement! Isn't that scary????


----------



## geokon_2000

That AKC judge should be shot. What an ignorant arrogant ASS!

AKC.....AKA....American Kill Club. This is why Dutch Shepherd breeders and fanciers are fighting tooth and claw to keep Dutchies OUT of the AKC.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

Joan, 



> Quote:That AKC judge should be shot.


The BBC special was all 'over the ocean' in the UK. So not the AKC. I'm sure the AKC would never be like that !!!


----------



## Liesje

I don't get why people are so quick to blame the AKC. They are just a registry. The standards and ring trends stem from the breeds' parent clubs. If there are issues with the dogs' conformation and what is being put up, then take it up with the parent club or find another venue. I would not be against the AKC adopting some stricter criteria for registration and breedings (though I'm not sure how that would work....), but really its *us* the fanciers that are responsible for anything we don't like or thing is wrong with our breeds. The AKC itself does not breed, register, and sell dogs.


----------



## RubyTuesday

> Quote:AKC.....AKA....American Kill Club. This is why Dutch Shepherd breeders and fanciers are fighting tooth and claw to keep Dutchies OUT of the AKC.


I wish them luck. Cavaliers, JRTs, Border Collies & Anatolians fought diligently to stay out of the AKC & failed. I'd bet the scenario was similar with many of the other breeds the AKC snatched up these past few years. It is, IMO, an unscrupulous, greedy & seriously predatory organization.


----------



## mjbgsd

This whole video is about The Kennel Club in the UK, not what's going on in America. It seems the UK people like to stick their noeses up and ignore about the health of their dogs' when breeding. I can't remember the guy's name but one of the kennel people were saying that if they were to make health screenings a must before breeding, then people would leave and they would be left with no one. I can't believe they think that. You think people would WANT these health screenings to be a must before breeding. You know, this whole "pedigree dogs exposed" is only about The Kennel Club in Britian, or wherever it is, not about pedigreed dogs in America. It seems our dogs are more healthier because a lot of us over here DO health screenings, in fact a lot of breeders do. And what is this about mutts being healthier?? You think they would have more problems because they get the good AND the bad of BOTH dogs, regardless of breed. 
When I watched that video on the shepherd when they were "walking" was that the dogs were PULLING, and HARD. Any GSD could look like those GSDs in the video IF they were PULLING HARD. 
It stuns me thought as to why many breeders were angry when asked about health problems and changing them. If breeders are trying to better their breeds, why are so many in the UK mad about getting health screenings done? Most of them seem messed up...
The ending was funny, I didn't know there would be a phone line center for people who were "deeply effected" by the video. Not to sound rude but that was funny...


----------



## my dog carmail

That is sad.


----------



## fuangel29

I say stop breeding for beauty... breed for purpose...


----------



## Xeph

The GSDs were also presented HORRIBLY! Like, just....OMG awful. They weren't the best dogs, no doubt about that, but they could have looked a LOT less horrible if they were presented halfway decently.

One of the dogs paced the entire way around, and I didn't see a single one actually GAIT...I saw them pulling like twits.


----------



## RubyTuesday

> Quote:It seems the UK people like to stick their noeses up and ignore about the health of their dogs' when breeding.


As a US citizen I wish I believed these problems were limited to the UK & its Kennel Club. I don't think the situation in the USA is a whit better. 

Just a few examples...

Pugs & Pekes damage their eyes if they run into a wall b/c their eyes project further from their faces than their (non-existent)snouts.

Dogs from many Golden lines commonly die of cancer at 5 or 6 yrs of age.

A breeder who developed a line of healthy, solid, good looking, long lived Bedlingtons free of copper storage disease was run out of the breed. People deeply resented it & preferred to declare it impossible while continuing with 'business as usual'.

English Bulldogs often can neither breed nor birth naturally (never mind breathe!)

Thyroid problems, seizure disorders, disabling allergies & cancers are rife in many, many breeds of all sizes & types.

And the noble GSD...It's not uncommon to lose much loved pets at 7yrs or even younger to health disorders. Tragically, many owners struggle with problematic, even dangerous temperaments. Other dogs (& their owners) battle life long, debilitating conditions. Way, way, way too many GSDs, including those that on paper are 'well bred', lack health &/or temperament &/or longevity. And this in a much vaunted 'working breed'!!!

This program resonated with so many, including those outside of the UK, precisely b/c it's not just a UK Kennel Club problem. The nitty gritty details in the USA might be different, but the overall sad, mad, bad picture is the same deeply ugly & depressing scene.


----------



## Doc

It is a sad situation indeed. Too many "problems" and very few folks trying to eliminate the problem. Heck, we've spent 50 years trying breed out HD and we are no closer today than 50 years ago. Maybe, just maybe it isn't polygentic but rather poor absorption of needed vitamins and minerals in particular bloodlines. And where did we get all the bloat, ear infections, allergies, etc.? So many questions, such little time ....


----------



## RubyTuesday

Doc, the increasing prevalence of health/temperament problems in pb dogs is (IMO) overwhelmingly due to misguided breeding. Many breeders, including many of the so called best, are breeding to produce dogs that win contests & NOT long, lived healthy, robust companions.

I nearly scream when I hear/read breeder discussions that go into tremendous detail & deep analysis over how a particular breeding will benefit shoulder assembly, tail carriage, eye shape, length of loin, ear set, muzzle length & substance. Health & longevity are dealt with in several quick statements that lack depth or analysis. HOWEVER, it's invariably claimed they're the *most important* considerations apart from temperament which gets a bit more discussion than health & longevity, but considerably less than the beauty pageant stuff.

I HUNGER, *<u>HUNGER</u>* to hear real discussions of how long & how well various branches of the breeding families lived, what health problems they had, when these presented, the heritability of these problems/conditions, specifically HOW a particular breeding will improve or maintain temperament & increase health & longevity.

I'd be wealthy if I had a dime for every time I've heard a breeder murmur, 'the vet assured me it's not genetic...' when in all probabilty there is almost certainly a genetic component, indirect if not direct.

FTR, IMO GSD breeders are neither generally better nor worse than other pb dog breeders. Our dogs by any breed (or none) simply deserve much, much better. To the extent that I believe in sin, I believe it is a grievous sin to breed dogs that are increasingly unhealthy & short lived...to breed dogs incapable of running, jumping, playing...to breed dogs that can't breed naturally, that can barely breathe unassisted. What, in the name of all that's sacred, possesses people???????? How can anyone feel ENTITLED to do such dastardly things to sentient creatures??????

Let me stop. I'm getting wound up.


----------



## Nelly

Have a few genuine questions









Are the health issues a sign of poor selection of breeding dogs or that despite the breeder's best efforts to select healthy dogs, there is only so much that can be done with the small gene pool ? Or both ? 

Does the gsd have enough genetic variability to produce healthy numbers animals in the future ? How long can the healthy bloodlines stay that way before seeing the effects of inbreeding ? Weren't the pedigree books supposed to stay open anyway to allow infusion occasionally of dogs from sheep herding bloodlines ?


----------



## Nelly

I agree RubyTuesday, would like to see other health aspects on top of hips to be also a serious consideration.

I had someone tell me their male gsd who they wanted to breed from one day had allergies, I mentioned this can be genetic- she talked to another trainer who told her to the the lines of- "why would you not breed from him, lots of gsds have that problem"









I like/wish to think GSDs especially as a working animal should be hardy, robust requiring very few trips to the Vet. Looking at some other working breeds (herding, sighthound, sledding) they seem to be tested in their physical abilities to a degree that gsds aren't really-mentally in Schutzhund/Police but physically ? exception would be working herding dogs- Does the lack of physical testing correlate to a lack of awareness of the physical fitness a working breed should possess ? 

Just a query- not saying everyone should buy a flock a sheep and have the dog's tending them







but wondering if there is a relation between working breeds that require a high amount of athletic/physical ability and the breeders perhaps being more conscious of health ?


----------



## Doc

Years ago, mother nature weeded out the weaker dogs, especially in the working (i.e. herding) lines. Although many breeders talked about health and temperament, many breed dogs based on what will sell, what is in fashion, what will win shows etc. Couple that with the lack of knowledge and experience in bloodlines/genetics and you end up with a gene pool full of faults. many older breeders spent their entire life "developing" healthy bloodlines. Were they the best looking dogs around - not always. Were they healthy and lived long lives - for the most part. 

It's understandable why the general health of many lines have deteriorated to its present point - some breeders have no clue about the science behind breeding. And the lack of understanding in linebreeding, inbreeding and outcrossing has resulted in breeds full of medical and mental challenges.

The truely sad part in this story is the fact that many of the older, healthier bloodlines have been lost forever.


----------



## khawk

ok, first, the AKC is a registering body. It keeps track of who your dog's father and mother (sire and dam) are and so on. It doesn't make value judgements about your dogs. It is the breed clubs, like the German Shepherd dog club, that makes those decisions, supplies the judges, decides what your breed standard will be, what it means and how it will be applied. It is the German Shepherd dog club that certifies and trains judges, and it is those judges who pass judgement on the dogs. Who is the German Shepherd dog club made up of? It is made up of people who breed and show German Shepherd dogs. If the breeders who show under them don't like the judges, they will stop showing under them and if this goes on long enough, shows will stop employing those judges. SO--who is ultimately to blame for the show dogs becoming what they have become? The breeders and showers of German Shepherd show dogs. That is where the buck stops. 

Nothing will change until the people who breed and show German Shepherd dogs admit that they have erred and they stop making excuses for unsound dogs like the poster to this forum who said that the fault was that the dogs shown on the video were 'pulling' and that was what made their hindquarters wobble and display their unsoundness. According to this excuse, it was not the dogs who were unsound it was the way they were shown that was at fault. Will this ever happen ? I doubt it. People who breed and show dogs have not only money tied up in them but their egos as well. It is really difficult to persuade a person to hurt their pocketbook. It is nearly impossible to get them to park their ego at the door and be honest about their dogs. 

Comment: It is not that these people do not know bloodlines. They know their bloodlines very well and they are able to produce exactly what they want with them a significant amount of the time. The problem is with what they want and what they are willing to do to get it. Dogs do not have to be two years old to show. They do not have to show that they have passing OFA or other health certifications before they can show. They do not have to pass even the most basic temperament test such as a cgc before they hit the ring. Dogs who bite the judge are a commonplace in many breeds. People who show dogs care about what wins and only about what wins. Genetics being what they are, you must breed what wins in the show ring in order to get what wins in the show ring and if that comes with a short life, a poor temperament or ill-health, then those considerations can only be secondary considerations at the best. One may deplore these facts, or deny them altogether, but the show breeder is forever stuck with them. 

The saddest part of all this is that it is the dog that suffers. And it is a tragedy that the German Shepherd dog, the very breed that pioneered true service work, the guide dog for the blind, the search for and rescue of soldiers fallen on the field of battle, and of help for the handicapped is now marginalized and now all but gone from the true service dog services. I wish I could hope for better, but nothing I see or hear or read leads me to believe that there is any real will to improve to be found in those people who run the dog clubs who control the dog shows. They are all too busy patting themselves on their own backs for all the championships they have put on their dogs. khawk


----------



## AgileGSD

I do think that it is impossible to avoid producing problems of some kind (health, temperament. structure). Some things are extremely hard to predict and some helath issues don't show up until later in life. Until there is a DNA test to determine carriers, non-carriers and affecteds for all health issues even the most knowledgeable breeders can only do their best with the information they have. Of course, that isn't to say that it should be expected to have litter after litter with problems, just that problems will occur when you are breeding dogs (or any other animals).

I do think that there are a lot of well meaning but poorly educated breeders involved with dogs these days. I am not talking about so-called BYBs but breeders who want to produce quality dogs but just aren't knowledgeable enough. I have talked to a surprising number of breeders in all breeds who are totally clueless about even the most basic genetics. In some of the lower numbers breeds, a handful fo breeders making poor choices has the potential to ause great harm to the breed as a whole. 

This article talks a lot about health problems and lack of quality in breeds and gives some reasons and solutions: http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/articles/breed_dilemmas_and_extinction.html 

The issue of "show ring trends" I liken to the story of the Emperor's New Clothes. While people on the outside looking in can see that XYZ breed has become extremely exaggerated, people involved can't because they were educated and now believe that this is correct for the breed or won't because they have invested too much time, effort and money to get where they are or because they want to be accepted and want others to look at them as "good breeders".

I'm not sure what the answer is for either problem. I don't agree with the anti-breeder feel that this documentary promoted. There is already far too much of that to go around, since AR groups have successfully brainwashed a large percentage of the population into believing breeding or wanting purebred dogs was wrong and responsible for killing millions of shelter dogs. It is already no longer PC to want or breed purebred dogs. Things like this "documentary" serve only to pit breeders against each other in the never-ending argument of who is "right", as well as owners against breeders by portraying all breeders as being uncaring and irresponsible. All this does is further benefit the Animal Rights movement and their quest to end breeding of purebred dogs by whatever means necessary.


----------



## khawk

Once upon a time there was a German Shepherd dog who lived 14 healthy years. He actively worked for almost all of that time, and he was still working mere days before his death. His work called for him to run, jump, climb walls, crawl under things, race beside horses and cars, and do all sorts of things with people, many of them strangers to him. He was strong, sound, agile, and fast and remained so right up until his death. He learned quickly and easily and his mind was flexible, in that he was not prone to 'stubbornness' or 'mental blocks' about what he could or would do or not do. He was safe, even friendly, around people, small animals and large, and especially children. His temperament was reliable and stable and he was not shy, nor tempermental. 

All this, and what is the first thing German Shepherd show
people say upon hearing his name--'Oh, he wasn't a very good German Shepherd'. 

That is what is wrong with German Shepherd show dog people. Their priorities are all upside down and backwards. People who cannot embrace a healthy, sound, long-lived, superbly trainable, reliable temperamented dog as an ideal for their breed are not going to produce healthy, sound, long-lived, superbly trainable dogs. Such qualities have to be a fundamental goal, and they have to be the number one priority for people because when they aren't, when some artificial concept of 'beauty' is the goal, we get dogs like those we see in the show ring today.

Oh, the dog's name? Rin Tin Tin. found, Sept 15, 1918, aged 6 to 8 weeks (able to be successfully weaned) died, Aug 10, 1932 Details from 'the story of Rin Tin Tin' from his official site, through the Arf kids site for service dogs for children. 

Oh, and this isn't an anti breeding argument. This is a pro breeding truly good dogs argument--sound, healthy, trainable, reliably temperamented, long-lived dogs for all of us to enjoy, work, and love. khawk


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:
> Nothing will change until the people who breed and show German Shepherd dogs admit that they have erred and they stop making excuses for unsound dogs like the poster to this forum who said that the fault was that the dogs shown on the video were 'pulling' and that was what made their hindquarters wobble and display their unsoundness


I was the one that made that statement. And I was making excuses. I admitted that those were NOT the best dogs, but they WERE presented horribly! No matter WHAT ring you're in, the way they showed their dogs was TERRIBLE!



> Quote: One may deplore these facts, or deny them altogether, but the show breeder is forever stuck with them.


I disagree. Not ALL show breeders feel that way, and to throw all of them under the bus is not fair.



> Quote:It is nearly impossible to get them to park their ego at the door and be honest about their dogs.


Nearly, not always. I have people tell me that I am TOO HARD on my dogs when I am speaking of faults. I'm honest about what my dogs need and don't need, and ask a lot of questions regarding such.


----------



## cliffson1

It is refreshing to hear some of the recent posts, but unfortunately there are only a few people posting because most people are part of the syndrome that is being discussed. Ego is much more important than the breed most of the time as evidenced by what people are trying to achieve when they breed. i wish some of the breeding police would give some imput on this subject.


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:And I was making excuses.


That should have read *wasn't* sorry.


----------



## mysablegsd

> Originally Posted By: khawkOnce upon a time there was a German Shepherd dog who lived 14 healthy years. He actively worked for almost all of that time, and he was still working mere days before his death. His work called for him to run, jump, climb walls, crawl under things, race beside horses and cars, and do all sorts of things with people, many of them strangers to him. He was strong, sound, agile, and fast and remained so right up until his death. He learned quickly and easily and his mind was flexible, in that he was not prone to 'stubbornness' or 'mental blocks' about what he could or would do or not do. He was safe, even friendly, around people, small animals and large, and especially children. His temperament was reliable and stable and he was not shy, nor tempermental.
> 
> All this, and what is the first thing German Shepherd show
> people say upon hearing his name--'Oh, he wasn't a very good German Shepherd'.
> 
> That is what is wrong with German Shepherd show dog people. Their priorities are all upside down and backwards. People who cannot embrace a healthy, sound, long-lived, superbly trainable, reliable temperamented dog as an ideal for their breed are not going to produce healthy, sound, long-lived, superbly trainable dogs. Such qualities have to be a fundamental goal, and they have to be the number one priority for people because when they aren't, when some artificial concept of 'beauty' is the goal, we get dogs like those we see in the show ring today.
> 
> Oh, the dog's name? Rin Tin Tin. found, Sept 15, 1918, aged 6 to 8 weeks (able to be successfully weaned) died, Aug 10, 1932 Details from 'the story of Rin Tin Tin' from his official site, through the Arf kids site for service dogs for children.
> 
> Oh, and this isn't an anti breeding argument. This is a pro breeding truly good dogs argument--sound, healthy, trainable, reliably temperamented, long-lived dogs for all of us to enjoy, work, and love. khawk


*clapping*


----------



## AgileGSD

cliftonanderson1 said:


> It is refreshing to hear some of the recent posts, but unfortunately there are only a few people posting because most people are part of the syndrome that is being discussed. Ego is much more important than the breed most of the time as evidenced by what people are trying to achieve when they breed.
> 
> 
> 
> I know a lot of breeders in a wide range of different breeds who do everything they can to breed sound, healthy dogs and many of those people are involved in conformation showing as well.
Click to expand...


----------



## AgileGSD

Thought I'd check out this "documentary" and as I expected, it is extremely Animal Rights oriented, right down to comparing breeding purebred dogs to Nazi Germany. Obviously a very biased, one sided view and meant to cause an emotional reaction in people.


----------



## AgileGSD

Asking Kennel Club rep if he would have a baby with his daughter @@


----------



## valkyriegsd

I had mixed feelings about the documentary. I think it raised very valid points, but like AgileGSD think it was very biased. The uninformed would think from this that mixed breeds would just somehow magically be healthy and long-lived while any PB was inbred and sick.

And OF COURSE they showed the examples of poor breeding, and spoke to the breeders wearing blinders about their own breeds. That was the _point_ of the documentary. And while that point is valid, the presentation was one-sided.

I really have concerns about the trend toward legislating everything to death, too. I believe educating the public (while harder) is the way to go. If people would only BUY dogs that had been health and temperament tested, then only breeders that did so would be in business.

Of course, the way the AKC is set up gives them a reason NOT to change things. The more dogs are registered, the more money they make. If only pups from HEALTHY dogs were able to be registered, there goes a good chunk of income. For the same reason, I doubt they'll ever change their method of determining a champion. If you showed your dog 3X under 3 judges for conformation rating, got a working title of some type, and THAT made your dog a champion AND allowed the dog's pups to be registered, how much would that cut down on the fees for showing?

Too bad nothing important is simple!


----------



## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: valkyriegsd I had mixed feelings about the documentary. I think it raised very valid points, but like AgileGSD think it was very biased. The uninformed would think from this that mixed breeds would just somehow magically be healthy and long-lived while any PB was inbred and sick.


 One could make a documentary about unhealthy mutts with genetic diseases and find more than enough of them to feature.




> Originally Posted By: valkyriegsd I really have concerns about the trend toward legislating everything to death, too.


 Me too and I cringed when at the end it was said that there NEEDS to be legislation concerning choices people make breeding dogs. That inbreeding with dogs should be outlawed. Funny though, I have known several accidental brother-sister or father-monther litters that turned out great and healthy into old age. I also know plenty of outcrossed litters which have suffered from a lot of genetic issues. Breeding not as simple as that and linebreeding is not the horrible practice it is made out to be. In many ways careless outcrossing hurts breeds more than linebreeding does. Careless outcrossing results in everyone's lines becoming a mishmash of everyone else's and also can led to popular sire syndrome. 



> Originally Posted By: valkyriegsd Of course, the way the AKC is set up gives them a reason NOT to change things. The more dogs are registered, the more money they make. If only pups from HEALTHY dogs were able to be registered, there goes a good chunk of income.


 There is also a question of who decides which health clearances are required and what is or is not appropriate to breed. And what about dogs who develop health issues after being bred? What about dogs with genetic tests - is it ok to breed an affected to a non-carrier (resulting in carriers but not affecteds?). What about the health issues which there is no test for? Until DNA markers are developed for all health issues, health screening is somewhat limited anyway. Not to mention the cost of registering only puppies from health tested parents would be far too high to be doable for an all-breed registry, due to the time employees would need to spend tracking and updating information. 



> Originally Posted By: valkyriegsd For the same reason, I doubt they'll ever change their method of determining a champion. If you showed your dog 3X under 3 judges for conformation rating, got a working title of some type, and THAT made your dog a champion AND allowed the dog's pups to be registered, how much would that cut down on the fees for showing?


 I would love to see a rating system and an "easier" conformation title. As it stands, AKC wants to only see a small percentage of dogs entered every year complete a CH. If one area has too many majors, AKC will up the number of dogs it takes to get a major in that area so that it doesn't become too easy to get them. It very much is a competive title with AKC and many deserving dogs have a hard time finishing because at each show, only two dogs get points in each breed. I could maybe see they could go for an additional "easier" title such as Conformation Certificate, which could be an evaluation by 3 judges or something like that. Then again, they may feel that would take too much away from people seeking a CH. And for registration purposes, again in an all-breed registry I don't see that as being finically doable especially when AKC is already struggling.


----------



## valkyriegsd

> Originally Posted By: AgileGSD... is it ok to breed an affected to a non-carrier (resulting in carriers but not affecteds?)


This goes back to a basic argument on HOW to breed for healthier dogs. I want to say I read this in Padgett's "Control of Canine Genetic Diseases" but it may have been somewhere else. He (or whoever







) said you can breed two ways"

1) Breed to _suppress_ the heritable diseases by breeding your dogs to lines you feel DON'T carry the issues you know that your dogs might. This keeps the undesirable traits from showing up in the short-term, but spreads them through the gene pool, leading to issues later when there are finally no dogs left that DON'T carry the trait.

or 2) Breed to _eliminate_ the condition by bringing it to the surface and discarding these individuals from the breeding population. This takes longer, but removes the issue rather than suppressing it. BUT it also takes cooperation from all/most of the breeders, or you're bailing the water OUT while someone else is bailing it IN.

Here's an example of working to eliminate an issue. I'll use the black color gene, since it's a simple recessive. Of course any disease is likely to be polygenetic, so harder to pin down. If you wanted to get rid of the black gene, you would breed ALL dogs to a dog that expresses the trait (is black) and if you get ANY black puppies, then the dog carries black and should be removed from the breeding pool. If EVERYONE did this, you could eliminate black from the gene pool in one generation. Of course, you'd cut you gene pool back dramatically!







Of course, if you had NO ISSUES in the small pool, who'd care?

So, even people who agree the issue needs to be addressed would probably argue on HOW to address it, which is why I'm not too keen on legislation as the way to go, even for a worthy cause.


----------



## Catu

I'm not an anti-breeds person, but I am anti-show and I know I won't get many friends around here with that, but that is the way I see the documental and what I agree with. If form follows function, no working breed dog can be "prettier" than the other outside the working field. Beyond that all you need is the Körung to determine if the dog matches the standard and that's it.

Show breeding is what is ruining ALL breeds and as long as the main goal of AKC, FCI, SV or whatever the organization you chose remains being the show ring then something will keep being wrong.


----------



## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: valkyriegsd
> 
> 1) Breed to _suppress_ the heritable diseases by breeding your dogs to lines you feel DON'T carry the issues you know that your dogs might. This keeps the undesirable traits from showing up in the short-term, but spreads them through the gene pool, leading to issues later when there are finally no dogs left that DON'T carry the trait.


 I think these is where a lot of people go wrong with their breeding programs. In this way, along with the risk of popular sire syndrome widespread outcrossing causes serious problems in a breed which can be difficult or even impossible to undo. 




> Originally Posted By: valkyriegsd or 2) Breed to _eliminate_ the condition by bringing it to the surface and discarding these individuals from the breeding population. This takes longer, but removes the issue rather than suppressing it. BUT it also takes cooperation from all/most of the breeders, or you're bailing the water OUT while someone else is bailing it IN.


 This is where genetic testing is the only thing which has the potential to really control genetic diseases. Without it, we are pretty much stuck "doing what we have always done and getting what we have always got" since the mode of inheritance of most diseases is unknown. Since a lot of problems are also late onset, it can be extremely difficult to work towards controling genetic diseases using only phenotype.

The tricky part of genetic testing though, is that it really did more harm than good in several breeds when they were first available due to the choices breeder made. Breeders in these breeds, when finally able to see which dogs were carriers/non-carriers/affecteds of the disease eliminated all carriers and affecteds from the gene pool, all at once. This led to the disease being tested for being controled and greatly, greatly reduced in the breed's gene pool. But due to the sudden, drastic decrease in the gene pool caused by eliminating so many dogs a host of other genetic problems (which genetic tests were unavailable for) became widespread. 

This talks about the situation with Basenjis:
http://devinefarm.net/rp/bathw.htm



> Originally Posted By: valkyriegsdSo, even people who agree the issue needs to be addressed would probably argue on HOW to address it, which is why I'm not too keen on legislation as the way to go, even for a worthy cause.


 ITA. And sometimes, what people feel is the "right" way to address it turns out to be a BIG mistake.


----------



## valkyriegsd

> Originally Posted By: AgileGSD I think this (breeding to suppress faults) is where a lot of people go wrong with their breeding programs. In this way, along with the risk of popular sire syndrome widespread outcrossing causes serious problems in a breed which can be difficult or even impossible to undo.


That, and the fact that some (many?) breeders' own sense of self-esteem is tied up in their dogs. You'd think you insulted them personally if you suggest there is something (anything!) wrong with their dog!







Kennel blindness is, unfortunately, a real issue and for the breeders of the _really_ big-name dogs, admitting a genetic weakness can be a HUGH financial impact as well as potentially opening them up to lawsuits from owners of puppies from earlier litters. But don't get me started on current society and litigation...


----------



## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: valkyriegsd
> 
> That, and the fact that some (many?) breeders' own sense of self-esteem is tied up in their dogs. You'd think you insulted them personally if you suggest there is something (anything!) wrong with their dog!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kennel blindness is, unfortunately, a real issue and for the breeders of the _really_ big-name dogs, admitting a genetic weakness can be a HUGH financial impact as well as potentially opening them up to lawsuits from owners of puppies from earlier litters. But don't get me started on current society and litigation...


 I can say from my involvement with the AKC show GSD scene that it is extremely hard to get accurate information from most breeders regarding health issues. This isn't to say Amline GSD people don't love their dogs and don't want the best for them because the majority do, just like other breeds. But that doesn't make it easy to change how things are. Part of this problem is as you say, the current society. Thanks to the Animal Rights movement, the public is quick to jump on breeders whenever any health issue pops up, even if the breeder did all they could to prevent it. This mindset has creeped into dog people's minds too and it is not uncommon for such info to be used to attack others. This all comes from the mistaken idea that many people have about breeding dogs. Talk to anyone (breeders, show people, performance people, pet people, pet professionals, rescue people, vets) and you will find that there a widespread belief that breeding and health issues. This belief is that there are "genetically normal" dogs and if a breeder is producing dogs with any problems, it is because they have poor quality dogs and/or are careless with their breeding practices. And most of those people could not be swayed from that belief. Instead of doing good, this documentary does nothing but make the problem worse by supporting that misconception. 

I have a dog of different breed from what I think could be considered a "big name" breeder - she has owned/produced three National BISS winners (and some BOSS too) plus a lot of outstanding performance dogs. The website for this breeder features a health database for every litter they have produced which includes all known health info on all puppies, good or bad. This breed's show scene isn't comparable to the GSD's though, as there is not nearly the number of dogs or amount of money involved.

I think both numbers and money do come into play with Amline GSDs for sure. They are one of the most competitive, expensive breeds to pursue getting an AKC CH on. People can easily spend thousands upon thousands to finish a dog if they use a handler (or thousands to show the dog themselves and get nothing). GSD pro-handlers tend to make their living showing on GSDs, so their livelihood actually depends on the GSD show scene. It would be interesting to see what would happen if a big name breeder decided to be public with all health info on their dogs. Would that breeder become an outcast? Or would others follow?


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:I can say from my involvement with the AKC show GSD scene that it is extremely hard to get accurate information from most breeders regarding health issues.


AMEN!



> Quote:
> I think both numbers and money do come into play with Amline GSDs for sure. They are one of the most competitive, expensive breeds to pursue getting an AKC CH on. People can easily spend thousands upon thousands to finish a dog if they use a handler (or thousands to show the dog themselves and get nothing).


All true. I won't send my dogs with handlers for a number of reasons. My primary reason? I want to do it myself. I enjoy doing it, and it's time with my dogs.



> Quote:Would that breeder become an outcast?


My first instinct would be to say "Which big name breeder?" The actual answer to the question?

Outcast.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: AgileGSD
> 
> This is where genetic testing is the only thing which has the potential to really control genetic diseases. Without it, we are pretty much stuck "doing what we have always done and getting what we have always got" since the mode of inheritance of most diseases is unknown. Since a lot of problems are also late onset, it can be extremely difficult to work towards controling genetic diseases using only phenotype.
> 
> The tricky part of genetic testing though, is that it really did more harm than good in several breeds when they were first available due to the choices breeder made. Breeders in these breeds, when finally able to see which dogs were carriers/non-carriers/affecteds of the disease eliminated all carriers and affecteds from the gene pool, all at once. This led to the disease being tested for being controled and greatly, greatly reduced in the breed's gene pool. But due to the sudden, drastic decrease in the gene pool caused by eliminating so many dogs a host of other genetic problems (which genetic tests were unavailable for) became widespread.



The other thing to take into consideration is that health cannot be the ONLY thing a breeding program focuses on. An important one, surely, but what about temperament? Nerve? Structure? Working ability?

What happens if tests suddenly become available to examine any individual dog's genotype for every possible health issue, and we find that every GSD carries some sort of unhealthy genes? Do we stop breeding GSDs and let the breed die?

What if there are some dogs who do carry perfectly healthy genes, but they are unsound? Nervy? Can't work? Have such poor physical characteristics they don't even look like GSDs?

What if we find a tiny handful of dogs that have perfectly healthy genes, look and act like proper GSDs, but now the genepool is so tiny that before long a whole host of other unforseen issues arise and we have to start back at square one?

No ONE thing, not even health, can be the single minded focus of a good breeding program. Actually, I'd argue that if any one thing did have to trump all others as being the most important it should be stable nerve and temperament. Health would be a very close second, but if I had to choose it wouldn't be first. A dog with health issues can in most cases be managed at least somewhat successfully, and in many cases can lead a long, full life as a companion, sometimes even as a working dog. A dog with major temperament and nerve issues is usless for work, problematic for companionship, and a dangerous liablity to everyone.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: AgileGSD It would be interesting to see what would happen if a big name breeder decided to be public with all health info on their dogs. Would that breeder become an outcast? Or would others follow?


Beyond outcast. They'd be crucified by breeders, judges, handlers, pet owners, rescuers, shelter workers, vets, AR nuts and internet "experts" alike.


----------



## Doc

I agree clif. Although I am on the least liked list of the breed police, a breeder should breed for the "development of the breed rather than their own personal advancement." Until that happens, we will reward the faulty champions and perpetuate the problems that are currently abundant in the breed..


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

> Originally Posted By: AgileGSD Thought I'd check out this "documentary" and as I expected, it is extremely Animal Rights oriented, right down to comparing breeding purebred dogs to Nazi Germany. Obviously a very biased, one sided view and meant to cause an emotional reaction in people.


What I thought was interesting is that none of the interviews were done on hidden camera. Talking about now having trouble finding vets to kill 100% healthy Ridgeback puppies just cause they don't have a ridge. Showing and breeding a Cavalier male not only known to CARRY the genetics for the brain condition, but also to have the condition. Claiming the way a breed looks is based on what the breed was originally created for, BUT when you take a look back at the way the breed has changed over the past 40 yrs or so to get more extreme they don't look much like the original breed at all (bulldogs...).

All the comments and interviews were given by people who absolutely believed what they were saying and that it was right.


----------



## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> The other thing to take into consideration is that health cannot be the ONLY thing a breeding program focuses on. An important one, surely, but what about temperament? Nerve? Structure? Working ability?


 Very true!



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> What happens if tests suddenly become available to examine any individual dog's genotype for every possible health issue, and we find that every GSD carries some sort of unhealthy genes? Do we stop breeding GSDs and let the breed die?


 I would be surprised if any were "genetically normal" because as I said, that whole idea is a huge, widespread misconception. All creatures carry genes to produce a wide range of health problems. Where genetic testing can help is in offering breeders a tool which would allow them to greatly reduce the number of affecteds for the more common disorders. Depending on the mode of inheritance, you could potentially safely breed an affected to a non-carrier and not produce affecteds. It would also allow breeders to work towards increasing the number of non-carriers through selective breeding. 



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild What if there are some dogs who do carry perfectly healthy genes, but they are unsound? Nervy? Can't work? Have such poor physical characteristics they don't even look like GSDs?


 This really isn't much different from what we already have. There are already unsound dogs with all health clearances being bred. I doubt that anyone who cares about preserving working temperament would stop caring because genetic health testing was made available. 



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild What if we find a tiny handful of dogs that have perfectly healthy genes, look and act like proper GSDs, but now the genepool is so tiny that before long a whole host of other unforseen issues arise and we have to start back at square one?


 That was what the article I posted talked about. That has happened in other breeds when breeders made poor choices based on the info genetic testing gave them. IMO that just shows how shortsighted and uneducated some breeders are about genetics. I would hope that breeders now would learn from the mistakes in those breeds.

As it is though, lots of dogs are already removed from the gene pool for much less. The Animal Rights movement has drilled into the public and breeders that any dog placed as a pet MUST be spayed or neutered, no exceptions. So we have perfectly nice dogs altered who could have contributed positively but happened to have been sold to pet homes. This is causing a steady decrease in the number of well bred dogs in the gene pool every year. I am not at all saying that every pet owner should be out their breeding but this will have an impact of the breeding population. I would have a real hard time selling a nice male to a pet home and requiring he be altered ASAP just because his owners aren't interested in pursuing titles. 



> Originally Posted By: Chris WildNo ONE thing, not even health, can be the single minded focus of a good breeding program. Actually, I'd argue that if any one thing did have to trump all others as being the most important it should be stable nerve and temperament. Health would be a very close second, but if I had to choose it wouldn't be first.


 I think health and temperament should be equally important. A lack of either can equally limit a dog and owner but the limitations of both really depend on how severe the problem is. My male GSD didn't live to see three years old and it wasn't due to temperament issues.


----------



## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> What I thought was interesting is that none of the interviews were done on hidden camera. Talking about now having trouble finding vets to kill 100% healthy Ridgeback puppies just cause they don't have a ridge. Showing and breeding a Cavalier male not only known to CARRY the genetics for the brain condition, but also to have the condition.


 Which is why those people were featured on the show. I wonder how many people they spoke to who said they simpley place ridgeless ridgebacks as pets? I have actually known people who have gotten pet RRs with no or poor ridges from breeders, yet this documentary would led people to believe that the majority of RR breeders would have such a puppy PTS. 

There are all kinds of people with all kinds of beliefs involved in anything you could ever look into. There are some downright horrible people involved in rescue but it wouldn't be very PC to do a documentary about them


----------



## valkyriegsd

I think the only way any progress will be made is if everyone in each breed coordinates and cooperates (let's all hold our breath! ) otherwise some lines will make progress in some areas, others in other areas, then they cross and you lose the progress. Oh, like what's happening now!









If the GSDCA members (for example) could set out a list of ALL diseases know in the GSD, list them in order of severity and with mode of inheritance if known, decide on the top 5 to work on, and WORK TOGETHER HONESTLY with a defined strategy to eradicate those diseases, it would probably work very quickly. Then we could work on the next set. But herding dog people is like herding cats...







After all, we can't even agree on what the GSD is supposed to LOOK like, and we have a written breed standard.

When people get involved, things ALWAYS get messed up!


----------



## RubyTuesday

> Quote:I wonder how many people they spoke to who said they simpley place ridgeless ridgebacks as pets?


That's a valid question but it doesn't negate that the British Rhodesian Ridgeback breed club condoned & encouraged destroying healthy pups. It's a badly skewed reality that not only *prefers* a deformity, but actually <u>punishes</u> the normal dogs! Given the number of people that adore the sad sight of disfigured dogs without snouts that shouldn't be surprising.



> Quote:The other thing to take into consideration is that health cannot be the ONLY thing a breeding program focuses on. An important one, surely, but what about temperament? Nerve? Structure? Working ability?


Given the short shrift health gets from most breeders I doubt there's much risk it will ever be the *only* thing focused on with many of 'em. IMO, stability & nerves figure into mental/emotional health. When I refer to 'healthy dogs' I'm ALWAYS referring to dogs that are physically, mentally & emotionally sound unless specifed otherwise. I live in a demanding environment. Dogs that spook easily, over react or shut down won't thrive. I want discerning, intelligent dogs with good self control who are natural 'thinkers'. Less than that is (IMO) lacking in important components of _overall_ health.


----------



## cliffson1

Ruby Tuesday, I agree with you that Mental health is a component of overall health. With that said the mental health of some types of GS that are bred today is so fragile that these dogs are never able to do anything but run around a ring and be a pet. What really smells of hypocrisy to me is when you read the German Shepherd Review and you look at the names of the conformation dogs and then you look at the names of the dogs in the obedience ring. NOT the same dogs....the breed dogs are always ASL dogs and the obedience dogs more times than not are German show or working lines. Where are the sisters and brothers of the Champion dogs that you would think you would see in the obedience ring IF the premise that the ASL dogs can work is valid, but the breeders just don't like protection work. Welllll the AKC obedience ring has no protection yet you still almost never see a showline dog or a sister or brother in the obedience ring. WHY???? These dogs as a whole don't have good mental health, which in a working dog means nerve, drive, biddability, and excellent recovery. So yes health is important, but whatever the issue, its importance has to be rated by how detrimental it is to the Germa shepherd being able to do what a German Shepherd was made to do.


----------



## RubyTuesday

Clifton, I doubt many of those dogs make very good pets. Years ago I read a book that continually referred to various breeds as 'good with the family's children'...Ouch! Children always have friends, playmates, neighbors &/or young cousins etc. It wasn't enough that my*tribe was absolutely safe with my daughter...They had to be equally reliable with her friends (& enemies) as well. 

It wasn't adequate that they weren't 'mean'. I wanted 'em secure, confident, unflappable, tolerant, discerning, adaptive, insensitive to touch, noise, corrections & able to thrive amidst tumult & chaos.

GSDs I saw some yrs back at a local AKC show were the polar opposite of what I expect in my pets...Maybe it's this area, I really don't know, (I don't travel), but they were skittish, snappy, snarly & hyper reactive. I've never seen anything like 'em. They were unbelievably different from the dogs I grew up with, including dogs that were pb & mixed, GSD & various other breeds. 

After seeing 'em at those shows, I lost all interest in GSDs, until I saw something very different.


----------



## cliffson1

Ditto Ruby Tuesday, That's why a lot of what was said in these exposes is correct and instead of people in the breed focusing on the things they said that were true, they focus on critical aspects of the documentary. Like ignoring the aspects they said that were true, will be improved by redirecting the focus to the source and whether the means is fair. Wake up people...the breed ring has totally destroyed the breed within its small world. In America we have a majority of people JUDGING a working dog in conformation that has NEVER worked a dog in their life. That's right not in sport, not in real life, but only in social clubs and match shows. THESE are the jugdes of how structure and mental are supposed to intergrate in a superb working dog. PLU-LEASE!!! That is recipe for disaster and lo and behold what do you have after 40 years of this junk????? Gone are the days of people like Ernie Loeb as a judge who had trained dogs prior to becoming a conformation judge. In Germany the breed ring is all about type and color!! If the dog does not have the requisite color pattern and "type" it will not be successful. So after forty years of this junk what do you get. A somewhat better dog because the Judges there have worked dogs prior to becoming judges, and understand better the need for the working instincts to be preserved, BUT after a while the bottlenecking genetically of color pattern and type will eventually (and has already) lead to a deterioration of soundness and health. This isn't rocket science and the specimens out there today in these venues support these assertions. Supporters of these camps will point to dogs that are the "exception" to try to make a point that the breed is fine in the conformation world. But the emperor has no clothes and the majority of the world sees these dogs (especially ASL) for what they are. Can you still sell these dogs to the uniformed??...SURE, but knowledgable breeders in the breed are steadily moving away from these dogs to dogs that are as sound mentally as physically.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

> Originally Posted By: AgileGSD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> What I thought was interesting is that none of the interviews were done on hidden camera. Talking about now having trouble finding vets to kill 100% healthy Ridgeback puppies just cause they don't have a ridge. Showing and breeding a Cavalier male not only known to CARRY the genetics for the brain condition, but also to have the condition.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why those people were featured on the show. *I wonder how many people they spoke to who said they simpley place ridgeless ridgebacks as pets? I have actually known people who have gotten pet RRs with no or poor ridges from breeders, yet this documentary would led people to believe that the majority of RR breeders would have such a puppy PTS. *
> 
> There are all kinds of people with all kinds of beliefs involved in anything you could ever look into. There are some downright horrible people involved in rescue but it wouldn't be very PC to do a documentary about them
Click to expand...

While I'm sure not ALL breeders were killing their ridgeless puppies in the UK. Until the special was aired, the WRITTEN STANDARD for the breed and by-laws for the Ridgeback INCLUDED supporting culling these puppies. So it wasn't a 'dirty little secret' that just some breeders supported. And it wasn't just an isolated comment from one breeder they happened to catch unawares.

Killing the puppies with no ridge was a written part of the Ridgeback breeders standards/practices in the UK. So any and all of the breeders were aware of it and THEY didn't remove it so must have believed it was to be included for the good of the breed and the standard. 

Only AFTER the special was showed in the UK on the BBC did this get looked at.

While clearly some breeders are trying to do the right thing. And though there are huge issues in the Cavalier breed, alot of the information about the issues were from breeders and people who ARE trying to help and fix it (realizing that hiding the problems and BREEDING the problems aren't the right way to go). 

I think the main impact of the program is on point. That when you breed ONLY for 'a look'. And when the health and temperament take a back seat to 'a look'. Then with our knowledge of genetics we know what we should be doing, yet clearly aren't really working to improve many many breeds to get a better dog in general. Many show breeders just want that one beautiful (to their standard) dog, and if the rest of the litter are a genetic mess with poor health and fearful/nasty temperament then that's just the way the game goes for them.


----------



## Liesje

I watched this program back when someone first posted it here. I was most interested in the segment on the CKCS, them being one of the few "little dogs" I'd ever consider owning. Now I'm not so sure. Also the Pekingese dog sitting on the ice was rather disturbing to me. However, overall, I know very little about any of the other breeds examined, so I don't want to form an opinion or get on a soapbox about those breeds. Goodness knows I get irritated enough when random people in public try to tell me all about my GSDs and they can't even tell the difference between a GSD and a Husky.

The segment on GSDs didn't really move me one way or the other. I wasn't fond of the dogs pictured and they did a great job of getting the most unflattering footage/movement of those dogs. If I'm going to seriously critique a dog I really need to see it move in front of me, not all strung up in a tight little ring doing a down and back like that. You can make one dog look 100 different ways if all the audience gets to see is a picture or a 2 second clip. I was just going over pics from my vacation and found the set of Nikon dock diving. In one pic, a rear leg is stretched way back and another is pulled forward and he is pushing off a hock. Looks just like photos of the extreme American line dogs but as far as the winning type in both the American and German rings, my dog has far _less_ angulation and even less than some working lines. But in that particular snapshot...




> Quote:I think the main impact of the program is on point. That when you breed ONLY for 'a look'. And when the health and temperament take a back seat to 'a look'.


True, this ^


----------



## mysablegsd

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Ditto Ruby Tuesday, That's why a lot of what was said in these exposes is correct and instead of people in the breed focusing on the things they said that were true, they focus on critical aspects of the documentary. Like ignoring the aspects they said that were true, will be improved by redirecting the focus to the source and whether the means is fair. Wake up people...the breed ring has totally destroyed the breed within its small world. In America we have a majority of people JUDGING a working dog in conformation that has NEVER worked a dog in their life. That's right not in sport, not in real life, but only in social clubs and match shows. THESE are the jugdes of how structure and mental are supposed to intergrate in a superb working dog. PLU-LEASE!!! That is recipe for disaster and lo and behold what do you have after 40 years of this junk????? Gone are the days of people like Ernie Loeb as a judge who had trained dogs prior to becoming a conformation judge. In Germany the breed ring is all about type and color!! If the dog does not have the requisite color pattern and "type" it will not be successful. So after forty years of this junk what do you get. A somewhat better dog because the Judges there have worked dogs prior to becoming judges, and understand better the need for the working instincts to be preserved, BUT after a while the bottlenecking genetically of color pattern and type will eventually (and has already) lead to a deterioration of soundness and health. This isn't rocket science and the specimens out there today in these venues support these assertions. Supporters of these camps will point to dogs that are the "exception" to try to make a point that the breed is fine in the conformation world. But the emperor has no clothes and the majority of the world sees these dogs (especially ASL) for what they are. Can you still sell these dogs to the uniformed??...SURE, but knowledgable breeders in the breed are steadily moving away from these dogs to dogs that are as sound mentally as physically.


Bravo!


----------



## mysablegsd

> Originally Posted By: XephThe GSDs were also presented HORRIBLY! Like, just....OMG awful. They weren't the best dogs, no doubt about that, but they could have looked a LOT less horrible if they were presented halfway decently.
> 
> One of the dogs paced the entire way around, and I didn't see a single one actually GAIT...I saw them pulling like twits.


In my opinion, it's not how they were presented, it's how they ARE. The hind ends were weak and wobbly, period. And the pacing dog was probably doing that because if he trotted, his feet would tangle up with themselves and he would fall.


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:These dogs as a whole don't have good mental health, which in a working dog means nerve, drive, biddability, and excellent recovery.


You cannot attribute it JUST to that. How many breeders encourage the owners of their pet puppies to DO anything with them besides "just be a pet"? How many breeders encourage the owners of their show puppies to exhibit in more than conformation?

I've not bred my first litter yet, but I'll certainly be doing all I can to encourage people that buy my puppies to exhibit in performance as well as conformation


----------



## Liesje

I love it when breeders do that, and I do think it's possible for a breeder to encourage without being pushy or demanding. I don't think I would have tried (or even thought I could ever be "good enough" to try) half the things I do with my dogs, even my mutt, without the encouragement and support of my breeder and others in our circle. One reason why I love the German show ring (politics and "type" aside) it is very possible to take your puppy to a show and actually get a rating and a trophy without having to hire a professional handler just to get a nod from the judge, plus the little kids have a blast double-handling their dogs.

As for the "performance" aspect one reason why I'm focusing so much on SchH at the moment is that it is THREE phases and those clubs and people truly committed insist all dogs work in ALL THREE phases. We don't allow random badasses to show up and insist the helper work the dog only in protection, or people to shy away from protection and only work in obedience, or anyone to say tracking is too tedious and boring and never track.


----------



## cliffson1

Well Jackie, please explain to me why the dogs I see in the obedience ring are very often from German Showlines. Why do the puppies from American show lines "almost never" end up in owners hands that do AKC obedience and yet dogs from the German Show ring often end up in the AKC obedience ring. Why did the Winny Stricklands twenty-five years ago stop competing with ASL dogs in AKC obedience. Do you really want to know, because she told me personally at her home in Deleware. She could not find the temperament in the ASL dogs to be successful in top obedience. In the sixties and early seventies she used to put CDX/UDT's on her CHampion dogs. But as the ASL dogs evolved she could no longer do it, so she went to German Showlines for her obedience work in her latter years. I think she would know and act with absolute knowledge, of this deterioration in temperament and trainability as she excelled in both at one period with ASL dogs. Even she couldn't do it after the breed started down the path to where it is today. If we don't face facts and reality , this breed(ASL) will never improve and this kind of rationalization will keep these dogs lacking in mental health.


----------



## Vandal

I'm surprised she wanted a German Show line. I don't know what time period Cliff is referring to but something has gone REALLY wrong with the trainability of many of the German show lines in recent years. I dread training those dogs. Very hard to motivate and they will completely shut down at the smallest correction. One of the side effects of breeding for a look and disregarding the rest I suppose. I look at the German show dogs as being only a hair away from where the American dogs are now. They look different but the temperament, nerves and working ability are almost equal....as in 0+0+0 = 0. Sure, there are exceptions, just like there are American line exceptions, but the majority are simply not German Shepherds. 

I agree about the animal rights lean in that documentary but the people breeding these dogs are making it possible to be portrayed that way...because it is mostly the truth. I have said it before, it will be these dogs that are used against all of us. The weak show lines who look hurt when they are hit with a stick will be the example used to demonize and further weaken the SchH test, just like the structure of the show dogs is making these documentaries possible. 
I am now realizing that the supposed fear the SV had of animal rights in Germany was just a ruse. The show people who have been running the SV have used that excuse for years now while they chipped away at the SchH test, weakening it each year until now it is simply a shell of what it once was. They broke all of their own rules and ignored the standard in just about every way possible. They lied because the show people don't want to do SchH, they don't want to test temperament they just want to run around that ring. Oddly, while they have used fear of the Animal Rights people to achieve their own aim, it is now coming back to bite them in the butt. It has become a self fulling prophecy and now because they have bastardized their own system, it is possible for the AR people to attack and to REALLY have an impact. If they had maintained the integrity of the SV system, it would have been impossible to portray the dogs and the breeders in that way.

I meet lots of people who are new to GSDs or who don't own one but talk to me about them. They all comment on the " sloped back" and the weird way the dogs move. Those who have not been exposed to the show people just say what they see, uninhibited. You can be sure if they talked to one of the show breeders they might leave convinced that their own eyes are wrong and the look and movement of those dogs is "correct". They might not breed the best dogs but those people can sure make excuses and offer reasons for why weakness is really strength. They are rather skilled at spinning stories, I will give them that and they have no shame while they do it. Why? Because as was already mentioned, it is their mentality.
I can't say I have any understanding of what the show folks see in their dogs. For me, I find what they are doing to the breed almost akin to a mental illness such as anorexia, where people can look at something hideous and see some kind of beauty in it. Not something I want to understand but since the pharmaceutical companies are coming up with pills for just about everything, I hope they come up with one for that particular ailment....and soon.


----------



## cliffson1

Ah Anne, you do have a way with prose. Beautifully explained in terms of reality. As for Winifred Strickland, she started going to the German Showlines 25 to 30 years ago when you still had some showlines that had good temperament. She used dogs that went back to Mutz v d Peltzerferm and Kirschental lines that still had adequate workability.When I last talked to Ms Strickland in 97 or 98(I was in the Delaware Valley Police and Sch Club at that time), she was barely competing anymore and she lamented how the ASL had self destructed in working ability and that's why she had switched. I reminded her of when I first visited her in the early to mid seventies and she had dogs like Ch Wynthea's John, UD, who was out of ASL breeding. She sighed and said yes but that day has forever gone. I remember thinking to myself, here is one of the most successful obedience trainers in American history who had been successful with ASL, making this statement. If anyone has the credentials, experience, and history and knowledge of the breed to make this assertion then she certainly does. It is now 15 years past my last meeting with MS Strickland and the breed ring has continued down the same path and so the scenario you have outlined Anne has evolved.
The sad part is that many people in the breed today have never known what it was like to have seen highly successful breed dogs that could work and produce good solid working dogs on a consistent basis. If the breed ring had stayed true to "true moderate dogs in type and temperament" than many of these exposes would not be ocurring. Because after all they are focusing on extreme aspects of the breed like the movement, temperament, looks, health, which have all been exaggerated (negatively for the breed) with the single minded aim and focus of the breed ring. It really very sad!


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote:I meet lots of people who are new to GSDs or who don't own one but talk to me about them. They all comment on the " sloped back" and the weird way the dogs move. Those who have not been exposed to the show people just say what they see, uninhibited.


I also get those comments. Have even had people come up to me at agility shows that may have a showline dog or so and these members of the public (not even dog owners) kind of whisper like they don't want to embarrass anyone with a 'is there something wrong with that sloped German Shepherd over there?' How embarrassing is it for me to say 'NO, there is nothing 'wrong' with that dog at all it's EXACTLY what the breeder was going for.'


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:Why do the puppies from American show lines "almost never" end up in owners hands that do AKC obedience and yet dogs from the German Show ring often end up in the AKC obedience ring


It's two things I think...lack of emphasis on encouraging those that buy pet puppies to do performance, and lack of even caring about performance at all.


----------



## cliffson1

Jackie, so as great as Ms. Strickland was about the knowledge of a German Shepherd(She co-authored a definitve book on the breed with Jimmy Moses), she was unaware that if these dogs were placed in homes that strove for performance they would perform?????? She is the ultimate performance home for AKC obedience and she said that as a whole they couldn't do it anymore. Her opinion nothwithstanding, the facts are they are not in the obedience ring. So, doesn't it make sense that the "facts" support her opinion as opposed to the opinions of those that claim these dogs can reallydo the work its just that nobody that does the work acquires them. The only people who believe this is the people who want to maintain this type of dog, and they have no factual basis to promote this view, only these many excuses for why these dogs aren't performing. Want me to say it out loud....they have lost their genetic ability/drive to work.Period!! Why do these top obedience trainers in AKC get these dogs with German names to compete in if it was as simple as having an ASL dog in the right home. Many of us breed people have to stop decieving ourselves about the condition of the breed. Until we own up, then it can't be fixed, and if you participate in this world with this product you are continuing the decline no matter how you analyze it.


----------



## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> I meet lots of people who are new to GSDs or who don't own one but talk to me about them. They all comment on the " sloped back" and the weird way the dogs move. Those who have not been exposed to the show people just say what they see, uninhibited. You can be sure if they talked to one of the show breeders they might leave convinced that their own eyes are wrong and the look and movement of those dogs is "correct"......












I was at an all breed show last year and was talking to a woman that had about her Whippet. She asked me what breed I have and I was embarrased to tell her GSDs. I immediately said they are NOT the "american show shepherds". Which she got a good laugh out of. (Me calling them that.) Come to find out, not only is she a whippet breeder, she is also an AKC judge. (Hounds.) Even SHE finds the GSDs at the shows just awefull to look at and be around.


----------



## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: Xeph
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:Why do the puppies from American show lines "almost never" end up in owners hands that do AKC obedience and yet dogs from the German Show ring often end up in the AKC obedience ring
> 
> 
> 
> It's two things I think...lack of emphasis on encouraging those that buy pet puppies to do performance, and lack of even caring about performance at all.
Click to expand...

I would even say discouraging and making fun of such aspirations. When I got Yana I tried different things with her and she wouldn't be able to compete in anything except tracking due to her weak nerves. You know what her breeder said to me? She said that I bought her as a PET so why would I expect her to do something, and she would suggest that Yana wouldn't leave the property because that's what most pets live like. And this is a 'respected' breeder with her own 'champion'. I guess my definition of a pet is different than some showline breeder's so no more of showlines of any kind for me, thank you very much, even if there are any exceptions out there...


----------



## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> Vandal said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was at an all breed show last year and was talking to a woman that had about her Whippet. She asked me what breed I have and I was embarrased to tell her GSDs. I immediately said they are NOT the "american show shepherds". Which she got a good laugh out of. (Me calling them that.) Come to find out, not only is she a whippet breeder, she is also an AKC judge. (Hounds.) Even SHE finds the GSDs at the shows just awefull to look at and be around.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said - it is like the Emperor's New Clothes. Was just talking to someone who has been involved with corgis for the last 30 years and now wants "something different". She is most interested in competition obedience. She said she was interested in a Belgian or a GSD but all of her dog friends strongly discouraged her from getting a GSD due to the structure and lack of work ethic. I said that you can get GSDs with outstanding working ability but they aren't dogs that win at shows. They really thought the only place to get a GSD that didn't look like a Amline was from a "BYB". They seemed really interested in the Belgians and their verstality (common for CHs to have other titles and for breeders to do "stuff" with the dogs)so I suspect they will go with one of them.
Click to expand...


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: GSD07I would even say discouraging and making fun of such aspirations.


Yeah, it is sad. I've met people who's Am Lines do *nice* "work" like "herding" (no offense, but I can clicker train my cat to move a few ducks around some cones...you ask about HGH and get a blank stare) and not the "vicious attack dog" stuff.

However I've been lucky in my particular area the Am Lines are not popular at all. In fact I don't think I have ever seen one in any context other than an AKC or UKC show. On the streets, at the dog park, at the pet store...I see German show lines, working lines, and some that are probably BYB dogs of who-knows-what mix. 

When I did AKC performance stuff with Kenya, many times someone would come over to me and whisper in my ear, "now THAT is a German Shepherd!" (Kenya is a small working line, looks about half the size and like 1/8th the angulation of the other GSDs present). When I was at the USA Sieger Show I had Kenya along and at one point was walking her around to let her pee and someone who is a very highly recommended and respected GSD breeder came over to gush about my "cute little bitch". She said she had seen the dog through my car and was wondering about her. I made some comment thanking her for her compliments and that unfortunately we probably stuck out like a sore thumb, a small working line dog at an international German show line event, but she just laughed. Many random people (who know very little or nothing at all about GSDs) say they prefer Kenya's look, color, and structure overall, of my two GSDs.


----------



## Castlemaid

I've had people ask me "what is wrong with that dog" question about ASL dogs and their exagerated slope. 

This one person mistook my floppy-eared, broad-muzzled Keeta for a GSD, not being familiar with German Shepherds (hey, she IS black & tan!), but even though he couldn't tell that my mixed breed was NOT a GSD, he COULD tell that the wobbly walk with the exagerated angulation of an American line just wasn't normal. 

When I explained that the dogs were bred like that for the show ring, he did not understand and still wanted to know what happened to the dog - did it get injured? When I said nothing happenened to dog, he was born like that, the person came back with a shocked: "You mean, like a birth defect??"

I had to stay neutral, I was assisting in an OB class at the time and did not want to be judgemental or negative of the people and the dogs, but inwardly, I had to agree - it was like breeding dogs with a serious birth defect.


----------



## lhczth

In my area there are some Ambred dogs showing in AKC OB, rally and even in agility. Not great dogs, low drive, but they are out there. We also have a number of white dogs. I don't see as many working line dogs except those that come from my breedings.







Most that I see, though, are European show lines.


----------



## cliffson1

quote"lack of even caring about performance", if this mentality is out there and some of you have attested to this. Then the question becomes," Are people who breed dogs that are not capable of performance, like advanced obedience, responsible or ethical breeders"?


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:Are people who breed dogs that are not capable of performance, like advanced obedience, responsible or ethical breeders"?


It depends entirely upon who you ask



> Quote:Yeah, it is sad. I've met people who's Am Lines do *nice* "work" like "herding" (no offense, but I can clicker train my cat to move a few ducks around some cones...you ask about HGH and get a blank stare) and not the "vicious attack dog" stuff.


That's really not fair Lies. There are all of TWO places you can do HGH work in the entirety of the US, and they are both on the east coast.

You may be able to "clicker train your cat to move some ducks around cones", but I do think that even if that's "All it is" that it should be commended because they're doing something.

I'm sick of hearing this "It's not enough!" crap. You can't get MORE until you start somewhere!

Some are trying to start somewhere, and the least that some of the naysaying German liners (on both sides) could do is give them a little credit.

I've got showlines of both types, and have worked with working line puppies that people own, and I love them all, but it really sticks in my craw when people think that working lines are the only ones that can do things WELL.

Yes, the AmLines can be low drive....I'm even frustrated with my bitch on this point, but I care about performance and I'm TRYING to do something with her (Tracking and agility may be her things). But, she's just Am Showlines, so it's not good enough of course.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Xeph[
> That's really not fair Lies. There are all of TWO places you can do HGH work in the entirety of the US, and they are both on the east coast.


Right, but you know what an HGH is and loosely what it involves, no? I have nothing against herding or any other performance events, but IMO that is what they are, _performance_ events that do not a "working dog" make. 

Again, my motto "call a spade a spade" is ringing in my ears. Personally, I don't care either way what lines there are, how they look, etc, but I simply don't get how selecting dogs known for their lack of driving and working ability is supposed to improve this for the future... If not, then I say just call it what it is, a show dog that is for show, selected for breeding because of how it looks and what it produces as far as looks and structure not because of it's performance or working achievements and temperament.

Working lines are not the only ones that can do things well but often they are the only ones who are truly selectively bred with that in mind.


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:Right, but you know what an HGH is and loosely what it involves, no?


Yes, I do (though I have a hard time understanding it all...I have a hard time understanding herding in general).

I don't think it's fair to call many SchH dogs "working dogs" anymore either...it too has become a sport.

I really don't think anybody should be able to call a dog a working dog unless it is an MPD, SD, ND, etc...we all have performance dogs, but many seem to use "The german way of breeding" to simply say "Our dogs are better than yours because they do this".

NO sport tests one dog the same way.

What about those of us that do want it all and are trying? We may be in the minority, but we do notice that we're being discounted.

The HGH is a performance title, unless the dog does that type of work "for a living", in a real setting, every day (such as Ulf and Geary's dogs).

Working lines are no different from show lines in that they are bred for a specific ideal.

I know many working line breeders sell puppies to K9 units and what not and some of those puppies end up true working dogs....but their parents generally aren't working dogs any more than Delphi is. Working line and working dog are not the same, just as Show line and show dog are not the same.


----------



## Liesje

I don't exactly disagree, but that's a different issue I think. SchH may not be "work" but as far as training the dog to expose strengths and weaknesses in drive, soundness, etc, what else comes close?

What I don't get are all the "show lines that work", "form AND function" slogans and all that, but don't see anyone passing on breeding a really nice show dog that has no motivation for any sort of performance or work. How am I to believe that temperament, drive, courage....really are priorities? I respect those who try but why keep trying with dogs and lines that consistently fall short?


----------



## Xeph

> Quote: How am I to believe that temperament, drive, courage....really are priorities? I respect those who try but why keep trying with dogs and lines that consistently fall short?


There aren't many with the current ones...they're few and far between, but they are out there.

I'm hoping to be one of them.



> Quote: SchH may not be "work" but as far as training the dog to expose strengths and weaknesses in drive, soundness, etc, what else comes close?


The HGH, which isn't readily available, ha. That said, for the "average person" I don't think SchH can be considered "readily available" either. But many other performance events are, and just because they aren't ALL tested on the same day (though I've been to trials where we run agility and then go right to obedience or vice versa) doesn't mean they're any less valid.

Why should a MACH UDX dog be considered less than a SchH III dog?


----------



## Liesje

Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't, but where are all these dogs?


----------



## Xeph

There aren't a lot of them. Has to start with the breeder encouraging a person to do performance with their puppy, whether it is "just a pet" or a show prospect.

I'm not saying they're EVERYWHERE, but they are there, and there will be more when younger breeders encourage those younger (and some older) than them to do the same.


----------



## Liesje

But that's just the thing, we can cry "but what bout these titles?" but it's like anecdotal evidence because no one is actually doing that despite how many people seem to say they are. To me it boils down to personal preference and priorities, and I won't say which are right and are wrong, but at some point each breeder/exhibitor has to choose one thing over another, and I just don't see any proof that Am Line breeders are seriously committed to improving the working abilities of their dogs because time and time again, dogs that don't cut it work/performance-wise are still bred for the show ring. It seems logical that if I were truly committed to breeding back working ability, then that is what dog I would choose, even if it means sacrificing a few aspects of conformation in order to get a start.


----------



## Xeph

Yankee:
http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_6ab897f4/wp_6ab897f4.html

Cassie:
http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_ab05c0c3/wp_ab05c0c3.html

Tori:
http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_1fbb2eea/wp_1fbb2eea.html

This dog never finished, but his titles speak for him:
http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_d51eb81d/wp_d51eb81d.html

Yancy:
http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/adogs/AdelgardYancyDMarquin.htm


----------



## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: XephThere aren't a lot of them. Has to start with the breeder encouraging a person to do performance with their puppy, whether it is "just a pet" or a show prospect.


 This is not the cause of the problem but the effect. People who are seriously interested in performance IME avoid Amline GSDs because most non-GSD dog people don't like their structure and they are not known for their drive of ability in performance. Time and again, when I have heard a dog person bring up getting a GSD for obedience or performance to other dog people, all the other people reply with "No!" or "Why?!" and start offering up reasons the person shouldn't consider a GSD, usually with reference to Amlines. Most people I have seen doing performance or SchH with an Amline GSD over the years either switched lines or switched breeds for their next dog. I am not saying you can't find Amline dogs with good performance potential because obviously they are out there. 

I guess what I am saying is that for most performance people, it is much easier to find what they want in other lines or breeds. Most performance people aren't looking for dogs which they will "breed up" from and improve working ability on in future generations. They want dogs who they can be pretty sure will have the drive, temperament and structure to be easy to train for their chosen sport. Right now, that just can't be said for Amlines. I would love to see that change and to see it become PC in the breed for AKC CHs to all have other titles.


----------



## Xeph

Well then, I guess I should be glad that, as usual, I am not the norm.

I know that when I breed I will be encouraging my puppy buyers to do anything and everything they like with their puppies.


----------



## cliffson1

Lies, is right. There is nothing wrong with wanting it all and striving for it, but you can't achieve it with the same type of dogs that got you there. So to continue to breed these dogs and then speak of "wanting" to improve the character, is not only an act of futility, but is also genetically impossible at this point. So for those that really don't care about character, I understand why they continue to breed these dogs, but for those that profess to want to improve character without changing the formula, the results will never match the rhetoric. But time tells all and the ASL are in the same predicament as the Brittish Alsation, in that nobody else in the world really wants one.


----------



## jfisher

I started out with Amlines and left them due to the very fact that I wanted temperament and working ability first, and unfortunately I wasn't lucky enough to work with any Am breeders who were interested in titling their dogs in sport events. Even if they had, the dogs I had to work with anyway, wouldn't have reached a high level of anything.

I want to stress that I am NOT speaking about or bashing Amlines as a whole, only the ones I personally had experience with. I'm certainly not going to name names or lines or anything. That wouldn't be fair since this post is simply my <u>own personal opinion and nothing more</u>...Hey, maybe I'm just the unluckiest person in the world...









But the fact remains that I was drawn away from American line conformation dogs because, again, out of the dogs from Ambred lines that I <u>personally</u> had experience with (and I gave it 3.5 years) versus the dogs from German working lines I then had experience with, I was much more attracted to the working lines.

One could argue that I should have stuck to Amlines and searched until I found something I liked to work with, or I should have trained the ones I worked with to the highest attainable title because hey, someone has to do it or the reputation of Ambreds in some people's eyes will not change. But to that I say the same thing that most others in my situation may have felt...Why should I when there are ALREADY members of this breed I love that CAN be trained to high level titles? If that is what a person loves and looks for in a dog, they should have that choice.

I could go on, but this was a "just sayin'" devil's advocate type post. Nothing that hasn't already been discussed round and round.









-Jackie


----------



## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: Xeph I know that when I breed I will be encouraging my puppy buyers to do anything and everything they like with their puppies.


 I think it is great that you'll encourge your puppy buyers to "do stuff". As far as not being the norm...do you mean in that you bought an Amline GSD for performance?


----------



## Liesje

I'm not trying to bash Amlines or the breeders either, I just like healthy discussion. I personally am all over the place! My show line is training Schutzhund, SDA, and dock diving. My working line won't bite raw meat and is a show champion. My_ mutt_ did better in the herding ring than a lot of GSDs and other herding dogs supposedly bred for this performance. Heck, in any given thread I suppose I could Devil's advocate and criticize German showlines and/or working lines. No dog/line/type/breeder is perfect. I really do not care what other people choose in their dogs and why, I think that's a personal choice and it doesn't seem to get under my skin like it does other people, the issues I have are with reasoning that makes no sense, trying to pass off a dog as something it's not, those sorts of things. I think breeding dogs is taking it to another level, above those of us with pets dabbling in various sports (speaking of myself). If one breeds for the Amline "type" because that is the look and structure they want, fine just say so. I find it hard to believe one is truly commited to performance or even improving the performance abilities in their dogs/lines when the breedings prove otherwise. But, when I bring this up then I'm told I'm just bashing Amline people for the sake of it....but yet no one provides a reasonable explanation... 

I think the same is very often true of German show line people insisting that their dogs work every bit as good as working lines, but all they have to show for it is the title. Since people apparently can't walk the talk, I guess we could change the rules, make V and VA ratings only elligable to dogs that have competed in regional and national events that year (not just getting a title at 2 years and then three years later the dog goes VA and he cannot even do a "sit" without a leash pop), but then the same question remains...if you really want to improving working ability, then why have to dig so deep with show line dogs and not just breed or breed to proven working line dogs?


----------



## arycrest

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1... What really smells of hypocrisy to me is when you read the German Shepherd Review and you look at the names of the conformation dogs and then you look at the names of the dogs in the obedience ring. NOT the same dogs....the breed dogs are always ASL dogs and the obedience dogs more times than not are German show or working lines. Where are the sisters and brothers of the Champion dogs that you would think you would see in the obedience ring IF the premise that the ASL dogs can work is valid, but the breeders just don't like protection work. Welllll the AKC obedience ring has no protection yet you still almost never see a showline dog or a sister or brother in the obedience ring. WHY???? These dogs as a whole don't have good mental health, which in a working dog means nerve, drive, biddability, and excellent recovery. ...


Not trying to throw a wet blanket on your bashing the ASL, but I was curious about your "facts" and checked a recent REVIEW. I agree that the dogs earning comfortation titles aren't numerous in the performance listings (there were some champions of record, but other than the title, I couldn't tell which dogs are being shown in conformation and which aren't). 

I counted the dogs with German sounding names versus those with American sounding names - I guess its the same criteria you used and when in dobut, I gave it to the German side. I found that out of 239 dogs earning performance titles that month, 113 had German sounding names - 113 dogs out of 239 is not even half of the dogs listed! With that in mind, I don't consider your comments * "the obedience dogs more times than not are German show or working lines" ... "Welllll the AKC obedience ring has no protection yet you still almost never see a showline dog or a sister or brother in the obedience ring. " * to be very accurate. 

Of course I agree it's impossible to tell for sure who are brothers/sisters of conformation dogs without listing the sire/dam/breeder, but since you're using this information as "facts" to support your argument, I figured I'd post the "facts" I found by doing an actual count.

And yes, while we're name dropping, I've also had the pleasure of being a guest in Wynn's home a few times despite the fact I was showing WGSDs. 

FWIW, I also LOVED attending her Annual 4th of July Obedience Seminars - they were awesome - I sure miss them - the Fourth of July doesn't seem the same anymore.


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:As far as not being the norm...do you mean in that you bought an Amline GSD for performance?


When I buy a GSD, I buy a GSD for everything.

I will say my comment overall was directed more to encouraging puppy buyers to do performance with their dog as not being the norm.


----------



## cliffson1

Gayle, let me kindly respond to your post.....First, I may well be able to get another month's German Shepherd Review and the 126 could be German sounding and the 113 American. Each month it fluctuates as does the areas reported on from month to month in line with weather , and promptness of clubs getting results in. So one review out of 12, in a year does not make the statement even technically inaccurate. Second, my point is that in the AKC venue of obedience where you"SHOULD" reasonably expect to see ASL dogs to be very prevalent, I see as many German dogs or second generation european dogs as ASL. I look at the names of the dogs winning championships, and look for dogs out of these same breedings in the obedience ring, I just don't see many. Third, I am trying to be gentle in using AKC obedience as a barometer to see some kind of the working ability these lines possess, but is hardly seen anymore. The reality is AKC is NO barometer to judge a German Shepherd truthfully, because any breed dog in the world can pass AKC obedience titles and do all the time. So the traits unique to the German Shepherd breed and should be part of the breed per the standard and creation, I don't try to even make a comparison with tests that measure these aspects. Fourth, and finally, You and I have a different definition of the word BASH. To me any criticism that is accurate is not bashing but enlightening. I have not said anything about the ASL that is not typically true(You see I don't let exceptions define my reality), and many many others have come on board and said the same thing including many people who have said they left the ASL to go to other subsets for the same criticisms that I have posted. Now are all these people saying these things because they are influenced by Cliff or could it be that they have seen or experienced the same thing also. (I don't expect you to answer that ). As long as breeders hide behind words like bashing when truths are being revealed, the ASL subset of German Shepherds will continue to diminish in statue from being the GREAT working dog the breed was created to be. JMO


----------



## cliffson1

BTW, As far as name dropping, I only used Winny's name to make the point about knowledgable GS breeders going to German dogs to continue to have performance standards they expect out of the breed. I would welcome any correction of my statements in terms of Win Strickland moving from ASL to WGSL in her latter years. See, to me the name dropping isn't as important as what she did and who she is....I hope that isn't bashing, I don't mean it to be.


----------



## AgileGSD

> Originally Posted By: Xeph
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:As far as not being the norm...do you mean in that you bought an Amline GSD for performance?
> 
> 
> 
> When I buy a GSD, I buy a GSD for everything.
> 
> I will say my comment overall was directed more to encouraging puppy buyers to do performance with their dog as not being the norm.
Click to expand...

 There usually is a difference between pet homes and performance homes. Most pet homes aren't interested in pursuing titles on their dogs and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Some pet homes turn into performance homes but IME most do not. Performance homes tend to want some "proof" that the dogs can "do stuff" and won't need encouraged to do performance. Performance people are becoming more and more educated on structure and are generally told along with other things to avoid dogs with extreme rear angulation (not just in GSDs but in all breeds, as this is becoming a fairly common problem in many breeds now). So the best way to get homes that will do stuff with their dogs is to prove that the dogs being bred can be succesful performance dogs and avoid breeding dogs who have structure like much of what wins in the AKC GSD ring.

I am not bashing Amline dogs and feel people should get the dogs they will be happy with. I have owned three GSDs and two have been Amlines, one was a half sibling to a Grand Victrix and looked it. Like Liesje, I don't really understand why breeders who are clearly only interested in conformation feel they also need to claim to be breeding for working ability. One can breed for "good temperaments" and still not be breeding for working ability.

This isn't just in GSDs but in a lot of breeds. I tried for quite some time to buy another Collie. I looked at litter, after litter after litter and probably spoke to an visited the majority of Collie breeders in my area. Their dogs were nice, sweet dogs and I didn't see any that I could say had bad temperaments at all. They were all friendly, human oriented and sound but low drive and lacking in "Oommph". My Collie had been drivey, confident, playful, toy and food motivated (and from a pet breeder, someone most people would label a "BYB") and none of the ones I met came close to having his drive. When I got my Collie, I had no idea that his sort of working aptitude was unusual for the breed. 

Quite a few of the breeders told me they were sure their dogs would be what I was looking for. I looked at a 4 month old that I was told had "outstanding performance potential" but he was so laid back he didn't even get up when I walked into the house. None of the breeding dogs were titled beyond CH and with few exceptions none had any other titles in a 5 generation pedigree. There were a few far away breeders suggested to me as having a lot of dogs with performance titles but after being so discouraged locally, there was no way I'd buy one sight unseen. I will stress again that these dogs did not have "bad temperaments". I was actually impressed with how they were all as Collies should in that they were sound, good natured family type dogs. I didn't see any which were shy or nervous or "weird", even ones which were mostly kennel dogs.

In the end I gave up my search and bought Jagger, my Belgian boy after meeting his sire at a show. I haven't looked at Collies since, although I don't hesitate to suggest them to people as family dogs. There are some breeders who I think I could get a nice performance Collie from, as they are breeders who are involved with performance but all are too far for me to meet their dogs. Plus my house is now full of these Black Pointy Dogs...


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Xeph
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:As far as not being the norm...do you mean in that you bought an Amline GSD for performance?
> 
> 
> 
> When I buy a GSD, I buy a GSD for everything.
Click to expand...

How do you make selections based on the performance aspect? With a pup, do you need to see the parents work first? With Delphi, did you do some sort of tests with her? I'm curious as to how the process works.


----------



## Effie325

> Originally Posted By: XephYankee:
> http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_6ab897f4/wp_6ab897f4.html
> 
> Cassie:
> http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_ab05c0c3/wp_ab05c0c3.html
> 
> Tori:
> http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_1fbb2eea/wp_1fbb2eea.html
> 
> This dog never finished, but his titles speak for him:
> http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_d51eb81d/wp_d51eb81d.html
> 
> Yancy:
> http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/adogs/AdelgardYancyDMarquin.htm


What a bunch of beautiful dogs. Very nice to see a breeder doing so much with the dogs. Made me smile- thanks for sharing them.


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:How do you make selections based on the performance aspect? With a pup, do you need to see the parents work first?


I don't have a system. Delphi is only my third dog, and the second dog I've gotten as an adult. When I picked Strauss, I just picked the puppy that was "pushy". The other puppies there (a brother and two sisters I believe it was) were ok. I knew I didn't want a bitch, so she was out no matter what she did...I grew up with bitches and I wanted a boy. The other male was very laid back and not particularly interested in me...didn't want want to interact at all with me.



> Quote:With Delphi, did you do some sort of tests with her? I'm curious as to how the process works.


I just played with her. My concern with her was more sound sensitivity and spookiness


----------



## cliffson1

" My concern is sound sensitivity and spookiness", Jackie, You inadvertently made the point I am trying to make. This is not bashing ...please. But why would you even CONSIDER a puppy out of any breeding in which you have the concerns you described. This is a concern I never have in my litters, though some pups may have more drive than others, I know they won't be spooky or respond to sound in a spooky way. This is one of the primary reasons our breed isn't considered for seeing-eye dogs as in the past. Soundness of nerves. People say temperament is first in breeding priorities, but if I even think a litter is capable of "spooky" dogs than no matter the conformation I run as fast as I can. Because even if you pick one that doesn't show it, if others have it then that puppy will pass it when bred. The reason I bring this up to you is because many people buy pups for first time and really have little knowledge of the breed and genetics, but clearly you are very knowledgable about the breed so it baffles me why you would consider a puppy out a litter of this type and "then with this dog want it all"? Not bashing, just curious as to your thought process.


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:This is not bashing ...please. But why would you even CONSIDER a puppy out of any breeding in which you have the concerns you described.


Because this bitch wasn't a puppy, and because I'd treat EVERY puppy from every litter with the same concern. Maybe you've been lucky, but I've met froot loops from every line.

I like to show in conformation.

A working line dog will not win in conformation.

I like to show in agility. Any of the lines can fit into this particular sport, the drive will just vary.

I like to show in obedience. Any line can do this as well, it just varies on the level...I'll work with what I have and improve upon that.

Sorry, but conformation showing is important to me. Not the title, but the sheer fun of showing. Even just winning classes is nice, and a working line dog will never do that.

The ones that could win would not be sold to me...not from over in europe, that's for sure.


----------



## gagsd

A while back Sue Dicero posted about a puppy from their working line breeding, winning at an AKC show. 
Sure wish I knew who the judge was!! 
I like to show in AKC conformation, but it does get a little old to be completely passed over because the dog is not the right type. So I can kind of sympathize


----------



## Catu

Sorry Jackie, but I don't get it. I understand you want to do a lot of things you love with your dogs, thats fine for everyone, but Delphi is not supposed to be your foundation bitch?

If it is about function, not fashion, what are the real goals breeding a low drive spooky, sound sensitive (all your words, and I appreciate the honesty) dog? Every one has a particular taste when it comes to GSDs, and even when show is not my liking I respect it's yours, but if you say that your breeding goals are to breed dogs that have a good temperament as much as good conformation, it is not deceiving yourself?


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1A while back Sue Dicero posted about a puppy from their working line breeding, winning at an AKC show.
> Sure wish I knew who the judge was!!
> I like to show in AKC conformation, but it does get a little old to be completely passed over because the dog is not the right type. So I can kind of sympathize


How about UKC? I showed my German show line (who is very moderately angluated compared to the cookie-cutter type that is now winning the Sieger shows) in AKC as a puppy and he beat Amlines. Now I show him UKC (mainly b/c we have many events in my area, and you can do day-of-show entries) and he is doing fine there as well, even with the Amlines around. The UKC is my compromise for wanting to dabble in show and not spend all that money to get completely shut out.

ETA: My working line is a UKC champion and has multiple legs toward her GRCH.


----------



## cliffson1

You got me confused Jackie(smile), you say,"I like conformation", then you say workinglines won't win in conformation. Whoever said anything about workinglines. Let's go back to your original premise of liking conformation. Can't you get a puppy from a conformation breeder without worrying about spookiness, or can't you get a puppy from breeding like Jim Fiemereck, who has been successful in the conformation ring. Just seems to me that on one hand you talk about a puppy from conformation lines and a worry about spookiness, then at other times defend the temperament of these lines as okay just not as much drive. Just trying to understand the original reference to spookiness and sound sensitivity, and fooling with lines that this is a chance. Have no problem with conformation dogs,(REALLY), if they have normal breed standard conformation. Just surprised you would consider a dog from stock in which this could be an issue.
BTW, if i did ever go back to the conformation ring, I would have a dog with impeccable temperament like many of the Andaka dogs. That's why I got out years ago, because it was difficult to get top conformation dogs without these issues being a problem.


----------



## Liesje

I think it's possible (and fine) to like a lot of different things, but I do think with each dog there are priorities, I'm not sure it's entirely possible to value conformation AND working ability equally. That is how it's been for me. I do SchH with a show line dog, but at the time I got my puppy, my priority was to find a stable companion dog with a lot of energy. I chose based on my relationship with the breeder and the dog's mother (she would not be my top pick based on looks alone, but as far as her temperament, there is nothing I would change about her). Also I had a blast at some WDA conformation events so I wanted a dog I could do that with and not be overlooked or coming last every time. So, I picked a show line dog and I am 100% satisfied with my pick, actually more than satisfied because he has exceeded all of my expectations and desires even at one year old. My next dog will probably be a working line dog so I can focus more on SchH and sport. Since I like both activities and both types, maybe I'll just go back and forth with each dog I get, rather than trying to find one dog that truly can be highly competitive in both/every venue. I think if I was going for the latter, I would only be very disappointed and frustrated, because most show people breed for show and working people breed for work so trying to find one in between is just going to sacrifice a bit of both.


----------



## khawk

I have really enjoyed this discussion. I'm going to add one more view. I breed for myself, and have been for almost 40 years. Each dog, before it is even considered for the production of the next generation, has to prove to me that they are good enough to provide me with my next working dog. They do not prove to me that they are what someone called 'breed worthy' by having someone who hasn't a clue how to work a dog in the real world telling me how pretty or not pretty they are. They do it on the job. Most of them don't get 'titles'. 

They prove it to me by being able to find the horses out in the hills and they round them up and bring them up to the house to be checked over--by being able to do it on their own recognizance, with absolute reliability, while I wait for them. They do it by being able to track the neighbor's heifer (or bull or whatever) when she gets out, whether with me on the end of the line (so they have to keep stopping their track and concentrate on getting me and the chair over the terrain and then reliably picking up their track again) or by putting up with some 'handler' who has no clue what to do on the end of the line and by sticking to their track, whatever it is, until they make their find. They do it by being able to handle cattle as well as horses, if need be, and by showing me that they can tolerate 'handlers' who may not be knowledgeable or even helpful. They do it by being what we call 'bomb-proof', meaning that they can tolerate just about any wierd thing people can toss at them without getting upset, or quitting the job. Like the time the kid came out of the stroller on top of Tyr at the Farmer's Market. Or the time the car backfired in the street when Tyr was managing the wheelchair with me in it through a difficult store door, and Tyr was so intent upon jockeying the chair over a raised sill at an odd angle he didn't even notice, despite the other dogs jumping around on the sidewalk. They do it by passing their OFAs and their other health tests, and by showing, as Ysabel did today, that she can pull the wheelchair with me in it up hill and down dale for three miles. (Talk about endurance!) And they have to do all this stuff without having to have heroic efforts made to train them to do it, while tolerating whatever kids might do to them in that split second your attention is diverted. 

Can they get 'titles' when given the opportunity? Well, Tyr's aunt Treasure had not only her cgc, but her cd, cdx, ud, td, and tdx which I thought was pretty good for a city dog and weekend warrior. Tyr also has an uncle and aunt, two nephews, one niece and at least two cousins working in bay area carda. One nephew and niece do cadaver work. What 'titles' they have, I couldn't tell you. I suppose that means they aren't any good, because work in the real world doesn't count, right? Only 'titles' or championships count, as I understand the arguments in this forum. 

Are they American show lines? well, no, not modern ones. Are they German show lines? well, no, not modern ones. They conform more closely to the type of dog now being called 'classic' or 'old-fashioned', that much maligned group of rare individuals of the breed lurking in the corners with people like me. I really don't care what you call 'em. They do the job. But when I read the discussions about whether people are doing this or that with the American showlines or German showlines, or what they go through training their so-called 'working' line dogs, I'm just glad I don't have any. 

I do know that I sincerely doubt that any of the American showline dogs I have seen in person could handle any real physical labor. Herd, ok, maybe, if they didn't have to do it all day or every day. Pull a wheelchair? Dream on. Not with those hindquarter assemblies. Do brace/balance work? same caveat. Lead a blind person? Same problem as herding. Maybe they could do it for an hour or so now and again, but I really doubt they could do it as a daily way of life. Would I be willing to try one? Nor really. It takes about two years to raise and train a service dog and it is an expensive, time consuming process. You put a little bit of your heart into each one. To take a dog through only to have it wash out for physical reasons on the job would be expensive and heart-breaking. Which is why places like Guide Dogs for the Blind at San Rafael have pretty much phased German Shepherds out of the program. And that is heart-breaking, at least to me, in yet another way, that the very breed that pioneered guide dog work should now no longer be a reasonable candidate for the work. And show breeders call that 'improving the breed'. 

I wish with all my heart that 'something' could be done to bring the breed back to what it used to be--the world's premiere working dog breed. But like Clifton Anderson, I have grave doubts that it can be done with the breeding stock available in the American show ring today. I would love to be proved wrong, for that would mean that the breeders of show dogs had truly 'improved' their dogs and places like San Rafael could again provide German Shepherd guide dogs to the people who want them. khawk


----------



## mysablegsd

khawk, what a wonderful, informative and spot on post.


----------



## cliffson1

AMEN, I sure hope people don't think that's bashing, but rather reflecting on the state of things today from a "real"perspective. Sounds like you have "real" German Shepherds!!


----------



## Doc

khawk, there are a few us around but we are outcast and oppressed by the ruling parties. Don't give up the fight, it's ok to give out but never give up. The way I figure it, the ruling organizations continue to lose memberships every year. Attendance is down at all the shows, and very few young people are engaged in the sport. The time is coming, and it won't be long, that the establishment will change there approach or go out of business. Folks like you and Clifton Anderson have the bloodlines and knowledge to change the course. A German shepherd was once a working dog that also participated in conformation - one dog doing both. It is time for that paridigm again.


----------



## Liesje

> Quote:I breed for myself, and have been for almost 40 years. Each dog, before it is even considered for the production of the next generation, has to prove to me that they are good enough to provide me with my next working dog.


I love this bit. I know it sounds selfish on its own, but I really think every breeder SHOULD breed for themselves at some level. Not for money, or to please someone else, or because it would be fun to try.... When I come across breeders that breed litter after litter and never once hold anything back for themselves, or are only ever breeding dogs that they bought and someone else trained and titled, I wonder what is their real purpose?


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:If it is about function, not fashion, what are the real goals breeding a low drive spooky, sound sensitive (all your words, and I appreciate the honesty) dog?


Have people gotten the wrong impression that Delphi is spooky? Because she is NOT, and if that's what you thought I meant, that is not the case. Nor is she sound sensitive (gunfire, dropped pans, fireworks, etc).

Drive (in her) I guess I cannot fully speak to...she's got me baffled all around.

I apologize for overall lack of clarity...things have been hectic


> Quote:Let's go back to your original premise of liking conformation. Can't you get a puppy from a conformation breeder without worrying about spookiness, or can't you get a puppy from breeding like Jim Fiemereck, who has been successful in the conformation ring.


Can I? Probably not. Not because they're not out there, but because *I* am a worrier, and I'd look for sound sensitivity in any and every litter I looked at.


----------



## Andaka

> Quote:BTW, if i did ever go back to the conformation ring, I would have a dog with impeccable temperament like many of the Andaka dogs. That's why I got out years ago, because it was difficult to get top conformation dogs without these issues being a problem.


Thanks Clif for the vote of confidence. I do my best.

Tag is one of those dogs. He has over 100 Best of Breeds and 25 Group placings. He also has a few performance titles, although not as many as I initially planned. Instead Tag has been working as my service dog. I have balance issues due to a health problem and Tag helps me when it is a problem. This spring I had to have surgery and was unable to bend over. This made dressing myself very interesting. I would stick my feet into my pants and Tag would hand me the waistband so that I could pull them up. Then he would bring me my shoes so that I could put them on. Tag also helps with laundry -- he pulls clothes from the front load washer so that I can put them into the dryer. On Mondays he brings the trash can up from the street. And when I feel good, we do "Bite Prevention" talks in schools and libraries to help keep kids safe around dogs. And did I mention that he does all of this at the age of 9!


----------



## cliffson1

No problem Daphne, many people think I am anti-conformation, I am not...I am anti GS that don't represent the breed standard. You don't have to do bitework to breed good GS in my opinion. You do half to breed dogs with solid nerve and drives. You have a good reputation for breeding dogs that are solid in head and body. But, you can't give lip service to the mind and make most of your breeding decisions on structure and think you won't pay a price over time. Keep up the good work!


----------



## IliamnasQuest

I truly enjoy reading these types of threads - I think it's important that the debate regarding the type of GSDs being produced today stay active and in people's faces. Personally I have never seen an American showline GSD that I would choose to own, and I've spent a LOT of time at AKC shows over the years. That's not to say there aren't some decent ones out there, but I sure haven't seen them (and that includes some GSDs brought up to Alaska just to be shown here, including some brought by Jimmy Moses). When a GSD is trotting around the breed ring and keeps tangling up those back legs and tripping (for example, the one shown by JM), I just can't understand why anyone would CHOOSE to produce that type of dog. Unfortunately, that same dog took BIS two out of three days at the local shows (actually, the HANDLER took BIS).

It's at the point where I see better GSDs coming out of BYBs who don't have a clue as to what is in the background of their dogs than I see in the show ring. 

We see much of the same problems in other breeds. I really REALLY had to search to find a chow of the type that I wanted. As most of you probably know already, there are NO WORKING LINES in the chow breed. Show people have turned what was once a true working dog - the old-time chows packed, pulled, herded, hunted and guarded - into an overly heavy-boned, heavy-headed, heavy-coated grumpy dog that can't move, jump, see or breathe properly. My first chow was from a BYB and she was amazing - a lighter-boned bitch who earned numerous obedience titles, agility titles, a schutzhund BH, herding and tracking certifications (she was a gorgeous natural herding dog), worked as a therapy dog, used to follow me when I went horseback riding, and lived to the grand old age of 16 1/2. My second chow came from a show breeder and has next to zero drive .. I managed to squeak two agility titles out of her and 1 leg of her CD, and gave up. She's just turning 12 and is already looking and acting quite old.

So when it came to my latest chow I spent a year looking, and finally found one clear across country (Ontario, Canada). Her lines actually have some obedience titles (extremely rare in the breed) and her breeders are actively training in obedience and agility, as well as therapy dog work. Khana had her therapy dog certification at a year of age, and completed (with decent scores) her CD and all three of her rally titles before the age of three. Now she's working as a service dog. She also is the sixth chow in the U.S. to pass OFA's on hips, elbows, patellas, thyroid, cardiac and eyes (chows have myriad health problems, including being #1 in elbow dysplasia). Her father was the first chow to pass all of these, her uncle and a half-sibling have also passed them (only 12 chows have passed these to date).

And you know something? Many of the show people don't even want to know about her. When I posted her OFA results to the chow lists, I barely got acknowledged. They don't want to see other chows able to pass health tests and do performance events because they don't want to have to follow suit. They prefer to hide their heads in the sand and breed their "pretty" dogs and not have to know if there's a health issue or even a temperament problem.

There are people locally here who have tried to get chows from what they considered "reputable" breeders (i.e. show breeders), and these chows have had everything from temperament problems (shyness, aggression) to elbow and hip dysplasia, luxating patellas, entropion. It's so hard to find a healthy chow, because people are mostly breeding for what wins in the ring. They don't care if their chows die young because the old ones are just in the way anyhow. They talk about how smart their chows are, but don't make any effort to prove it. And they tell me that I put my dogs at risk by letting them run and play and jump over logs in the woods, because they can't let theirs do that or they'd have ruptured cruciates.

I know, I know ... I have the kind of chow that SHOULD be bred. If I were in a better position, and wasn't so emotionally wrapped up in this girl, I'd breed her just to carry on more of this type. But that's not going to happen, so I just continue to support 100% the breeders who produced these healthy, temperamentally sound, active, athletic, intelligent dogs.

OH - and Khana even has conformation points in both AKC and CKC! There ARE some judges who recognize a quality, active chow. Amazing, isn't it?

Let's all do what we can to educate those around us as to what makes a truly healthy, sound dog in whatever our chosen breeds are. I've tried to do my part locally by writing articles for the newspapers and being on the local "dog-talk" radio show, talking about health testing and how to pick a good breeder. I know that much of what I say goes on deaf ears, but if I even get through to a few that's good.

Oh, and khawk? I want one of your dogs! I got a GSD with the intention of training her to be my next SD but she's got some health issues that will probably mean she'll never quite make it. Your dogs sound fantastic, and I don't care if they've never earned an "official" title. You have dogs that WORK.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## RubyTuesday

Melanie, reading your post I realize there might be Chows out there that I'd like! The ones I've encountered have all been those _"overly heavy-boned, heavy-headed, heavy-coated grumpy dog that can't move, jump, see or breathe properly."_ I didn't know any other type still existed. WoW! Next I'll read there are Pugs with noses!!!



> Quote:And you know something? Many of the show people don't even want to know about her.


I know an extremely intelligent, uber competent, strong minded woman who developed a line of Bedlington Terriers that was free of copper storage disease. It was a nice looking line, long lived, healthy & with superlative temperaments. She encountered that attitude accompanied by so much outright hostility that she was driven from the breed. She recently lost her last Bedlington who was 19+ yrs old. I think of it & I don't know whether to cry or scream. How utterly, deeply disgusting! Is it any wonder so many breeds are riding the thin edge of disaster?

Truly people don't deserve dogs & dogs sure as h*e*c*k don't deserve what so many people subject 'em to.


----------



## GranvilleGSD

I took a show catalog once where there was a major for GSDs and I looked up all the dogs on the OFA website. Sad to say, I only found results for about 5 dogs, and I don't think any of the dogs entered in the BOB competition had results.


----------



## Effie325

I had no idea there were nice chows that could do things! I'd like to see pics of your sweet girl. She sounds amazing!


----------



## IliamnasQuest

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I wanted to comment on the posts regarding chows (of course! *L*).

To keep this somewhat pertinent, the problems with show lines of chows tends to parallel the problems of show line GSDs - anytime you breed primarily for looks, you disregard other traits that (in my opinion) are more important. Overall, chows are a pretty unhealthy breed - much worse than shepherds. Add to that the uncertain temperament in so many, and the reputation of the entire breed becomes tainted. 

The young chow that I have is from the Clos de Lion kennels in Ontario, Canada. Her sire (as noted above, the first chow to ever pass ALL six OFA tests) is from the Redcloud Kennels in Maine - a chow kennel that has worked for some 30 years to produce a chow of exemplary health and temperament, while still maintaining the standard. This type of breeder is extremely rare in the breed.

Here are some photos of my very active, athletic, energetic girl. She's lived her entire life with shepherds and keeps up with them quite well!

One of her heeling - she has a beautiful, attentive heel (when we've practiced - she's rusty right now):









Getting a quick hug as she trots past my three-year-old nephew:









Playing with Trick, who helped raise Khana and is Khana's best buddy:









Another with Trick - from early puppyhood, Khana would hang onto Trick's tail and Trick just accepted it .. *L* .. I have numerous photos of Trick's tail in Khana's mouth!









And one final one of Khana playing with Tazer, shortly after Tazer came to live with us - Khana has been a wonderful puppy-trainer and I don't think I could have handled Tazer without her!









As you can see, this is not one of those heavy chows that can't breathe, can't see properly, is dog aggressive and/or people aggressive, and has to be kept in a controlled area in order to avoid tearing a cruciate! I have some photos of her jumping (practicing for competition obedience) but I couldn't find them and they may have been on my website that I deleted. 

We all need to support breeders who put health and temperament at the top of their list, while still breeding for a dog that holds the correct traits for its breed. I fully believe that a GSD should be a working type dog, even those who are intended to be pets. I feel the same way about chows, actually - they weren't developed to be over-sized lap dogs. And yet I've had numerous chow breeders tell me that chows are NOT trainable. What's the point of breeding dogs that aren't trainable?? It's nonsense.

Okay, back to the regularly scheduled topic .. I hope I haven't deviated TOO much! The "breeding for looks" problem tends to hit most breeds, and in the long run we all lose out because of it.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## Effie325

She is beautiful!!!!


----------

