# Definition of a Sporty Dog



## The Stig

Hi All,

First off, I am not sure where to post this question so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum.

I have been reading several threads, including the one re: Which Drago breeding to pick, and I keep seeing discussions about the sportiness of dogs. 

I am unsure what exactly the definition means in regards to this context. My own interpretation is, a dog would have to be sporty to be in this sport and these dogs already are. So I am confused. 

Thanks!


----------



## Steve Strom

I don't know anything about Drago or any of his breedings, but I can tell you why I would describe my dogs as sporty. For me its the way they're motivated to train with toys and play. The way they can have that upbeat, happy obedience from it.

You could look at differences in protection work too, but that can be tough to decipher online.


----------



## lhczth

I think you will get many definitions. Even how I would describe the term would need a definition or at least a common understanding of what I mean.

For me a sporty GSD is a dog that lacks balance as a GSD and is more like a Malinois. Crazy drive, reactive, non thinking, easy for helpers to work and handlers to make flashy pretty obedience. The type that would launch off of a cliff after a ball.


----------



## onyx'girl

I agree with Lisa's description. Adding a bit of my opinion too! Lower threshold and not as serious when it comes to aggression(of course the dog may put on a great display of teeth baring) but really loving the fighting part of the protection phase isn't as fun as winning the sleeve to prance it around.


----------



## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> I think you will get many definitions. Even how I would describe the term would need a definition or at least a common understanding of what I mean.
> 
> For me a sporty GSD is a dog that lacks balance as a GSD and is more like a Malinois. Crazy drive, reactive, non thinking, easy for helpers to work and handlers to make flashy pretty obedience. The type that would launch off of a cliff after a ball.


Looking at your dog Deja's obedience, I would say sporty and I mean it as a compliment. In your description you say "
*A strong desire to please, very good ball and food drive for ease of training, and excellent athleticism."*
That's along the lines of what I mean. Very clearly a dog that doesn't have to be drug around in ob. Terminology is always fun, Lol.


----------



## GatorDog

I don't think I've been involved long enough to really develop an opinion on this, but I would like to add that I have recently been hearing a lot of people refer to dogs without nice obedience as "real" dogs and that are not "sporty", and I think that its stupid. I think a dog can be balanced and also have happy, willing obedience. Just because a dog has happy obedience and crazy drive does not mean that they will run off a cliff after a ball. To me, it just sounds like excuses.


----------



## onyx'girl

Please don't test that theory!


----------



## GatorDog

onyx'girl said:


> Please don't test that theory!


LOL. You can test it at dock diving! A four or five foot drop into water with a psycho ball drive dog and nope..She won't go. And she can, in fact, swim like a fish. But jumping into an abyss for a ball..No way. She's too smart for that.


----------



## Steve Strom

GatorDog said:


> I don't think I've been involved long enough to really develop an opinion on this, but I would like to add that I have recently been hearing a lot of people refer to dogs without nice obedience as "real" dogs and that are not "sporty", and I think that its stupid. I think a dog can be balanced and also have happy, willing obedience. Just because a dog has happy obedience and crazy drive does not mean that they will run off a cliff after a ball. To me, it just sounds like excuses.


 Watching your videos, I would call your dog sporty. AND, I would be very happy with her.


----------



## GatorDog

Steve Strom said:


> Watching your videos, I would call your dog sporty. AND, I would be very happy with her.


I think she is good for sport as well and I am very very happy with her. Thank you 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> I don't think I've been involved long enough to really develop an opinion on this, but I would like to add that I have recently been hearing a lot of people refer to dogs without nice obedience as "real" dogs and that are not "sporty", and I think that its stupid. I think a dog can be balanced and also have happy, willing obedience. Just because a dog has happy obedience and crazy drive does not mean that they will run off a cliff after a ball. To me, it just sounds like excuses.


In protection it seems more civil/"real" dogs seem to have less pretty ob in the same way tai chi is very pretty and elegant to watch compared to MMA fighting which is generally defined by "what is most effective". Sporty dogs have an elegance in their work that would likely unravel in a real altercation anyway. You can also train a sporty dog to "before real" or a "real" dog to be more sporty. But each excels best in their natural nature


----------



## hunterisgreat

I think pretty OB is more difficult to achieve with "real" dogs but strong protection comes easier. Vice versa for sportier dogs


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I personally have seen dogs that would bite for real with "sporty" obedience and vice versa. I think some dogs just naturally have that expression so desired in IPO now and are easier to train and mold then others.
To me a sport dog is a dog that has no utility off the field. A dog that cannot be relied upon for real protection. Maybe still a nice dog but not the real deal.
I had a dutchy last year. Sweet and social, was willing to please, had toy drive, soft temperment etc. She was not fearful but she did not have the nerve for serious bitework. She would have made a nice agility, obedience, club ipo or dock diving dog. I sold her as an active companion. She was a lower echelon sport dog imo.


----------



## onyx'girl

a dog that is tracking so nose down that it is not aware of the surroundings, just that footstep to footstep track awaiting the next turn or article. And if someone had a gun pointed next to them after a corner, they'd hardly notice, because of that great tunnel vision on the track.


----------



## GatorDog

hunterisgreat said:


> In protection it seems more civil/"real" dogs seem to have less pretty ob in the same way tai chi is very pretty and elegant to watch compared to MMA fighting which is generally defined by "what is most effective". Sporty dogs have an elegance in their work that would likely unravel in a real altercation anyway. You can also train a sporty dog to "before real" or a "real" dog to be more sporty. But each excels best in their natural nature


But speaking of obedience as a phase in its own and not the secondary obedience in protection...Why would these "real" dogs be less motivated to achieve that happy flashy obedience than a sport dog? The obedience phases of IPO has nothing to do with protection. Doesn't it all boil down to the type of training and drive that the dog can utilize for obedience?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> a dog that is tracking so nose down that it is not aware of the surroundings, just that footstep to footstep track awaiting the next turn or article. And if someone had a gun pointed next to them after a corner, they'd hardly notice, because of that great tunnel vision on the track.


I'm doing a tactical trailing course with jäger soon with a friend. Both the trailing team and the trailee are armed with paintball guns


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> But speaking of obedience as a phase in its own and not the secondary obedience in protection...Why would these "real" dogs be less motivated to achieve that happy flashy obedience than a sport dog? The obedience phases of IPO has nothing to do with protection. Doesn't it all boil down to the type of training and drive that the dog can utilize for obedience?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I was referring to OB in protection specifically. Sorry for confusion. On phone


----------



## The Stig

Thanks for contributions and discussion. Unfortunately, I am even more confused now than when I started with the sporty question. 

I also came across the term 'real dog' in other threads, and do not understand its context. Since it is brought up in this thread, I will just kill 2 birds w/ 1 stone.

So what I have grasped so far is, the opposite of a sporty dog is a real dog? Could I liken a real dog to say, a MWD, and a sporty dog to a dog that does best in a sport where there is more 'control' and 'routine'? 

Also, what does low threshold mean? It means it takes less for a dog to ... react in a certain manner? What kind of manner? Aggression? I think I saw that on the Drago thread as well, but I didn't want to hijack it with my interruption.

A sporty dog is one with a high ball drive, and pretty obedience? So what kind of drive does a 'real' dog have, and what is the motivation then for training a real dog? And how does flashy, pretty obedience look like?

If there are videos for comparisons to recommend, that could help. I am a visual learner. 

I will post more questions as I try to absorb what has been laid out on the table.

ps: Jane... your description of a dog tracking w/ intense focus... is that also a definition/description of a sporty dog?


----------



## Baillif

I consider a dog sporty when they are naturally explosive for cues and their drives are such that they are easily motivated without having to put a bunch of energy into them to get something to happen with energy enthusiasm and maybe a bit of flair.

I don't factor biting ability or grips or aggression into this because there are more sports out there than those that involve bite work.


----------



## lhczth

onyx'girl said:


> a dog that is tracking so nose down that it is not aware of the surroundings, just that footstep to footstep track awaiting the next turn or article. And if someone had a gun pointed next to them after a corner, they'd hardly notice, because of that great tunnel vision on the track.


It is called training. Some of the best tracking dogs I have ever worked/trained with were very serious in protection.


----------



## lhczth

Steve Strom said:


> Looking at your dog Deja's obedience, I would say sporty and I mean it as a compliment. In your description you say "
> *A strong desire to please, very good ball and food drive for ease of training, and excellent athleticism."*
> That's along the lines of what I mean. Very clearly a dog that doesn't have to be drug around in ob. Terminology is always fun, Lol.


You would have to meet her in person.  In some ways, yes, Mali like, but in other ways, definitely not. A blast to work, not always the funnest dog to handle.


----------



## simba405

Baillif said:


> I consider a dog sporty when they are naturally explosive for cues and their drives are such that they are easily motivated without having to put a bunch of energy into them to get something to happen with energy enthusiasm and maybe a bit of flair.
> 
> I don't factor biting ability or grips or aggression into this because there are more sports out there than those that involve bite work.


What is your definition of real then? A dog you have to rile up? 

Do you consider detection dogs sporty? They sure don't need much motivation.


----------



## Baillif

There is no definition of real. I think that entire concept is stupid. Regardless of what you are using the dog for be it agility or going on the raid to kill Bin Laden if it meets what I said above it is "sporty" in my eyes.


----------



## hunterisgreat

"Real dog" is often more of a feeling than something easily put into words. You know it when it's I front of you. And you know when it's not in front of you. When resellers say "sport dog" they typically mean "not for real work" or "this dog will get great points but should not be relied upon when your life hangs in the balance"

"Sporty" can just mean "prettier OB" or more clearly "able to get higher points in sport work" without the negative connotations that come with "sport dog"


----------



## simba405

Why is sporty prettier obedience? "real" dogs are just as motivated and are just as high drive. 

Sometimes I feel like when people say "real" it just means a dog that likes to bite but lacking in tracking and obedience. 

To me real is just a dog that is more serious during the protection phase. It's not all high pitch bark and whiny. Body language is more measured. Doesn't mean it should be mediocre in tracking/obedience though.


----------



## gsdsar

There is a big difference in being correct in obedience and being flashy. 

I have to say, not liking the negative connotation of sporty. Nothing wrong with sporty. If your goal is sport. 

To me a sport dog is uber flashy, very quick, gamey about their job. ITS ALL FUN AND GAMES!!! I think it comes down to what you are looking for in a dog. 

I don't have a sporty dog. I am good with that. Not sure if I have a "real" dog yet or not. If you can't tell by the quotes, I don't like that either. 

Sporty dogs tend to be much higher, much earlier, in toy drive, prey drive. Makes it easier to start them in work and hence quicker to the trial field. And in sport that's what you want. I can't tell you how many breeders sites that exclaim gladly their dogs were IPO 3 by a young age. 

Dogs with less toy/prey have to be waited out a bit. My boy is 16 months and we just recently started bitework. 

But he tracks like a champ. His obedience is nicely coming along. I just had to wait for him to be mature enough to tap into other drives for bitework. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## mycobraracr

My quick definition of a sporty dog is one with over the top prey drive and low threshold.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I think for sure some people make up stories to explain their dogs lack of control and poor OB. 

However, I have experienced myself the difference in certain dogs capacity and endurance for obedience.

-Some dogs pick it up very quickly, they are easily motivated and rewarded, bounce back from corrections, can train for 15-20 minutes and maintain that flashy speed and precision. They can be doing the full IPO 1 routine with a good trainer pretty quickly. They always want to work and be doing something with you.

-Some dogs take much longer to learn OB, they have poorer retention, need to be constantly watched for precision because they tend to get lazy and sloppy if you dont stay on them. Same dogs often seem to have less endurance for the obedience as in they lose the prancy flashy expression in a several minutes if you dont work them carefully. They are more independent and while they enjoy the reward their expression wont be as appealing as dog # 1. If you ask to much they give you the mental finger.

Just my experience, I think both dogs can be good / bad. Obviously one will get you better points on the field.


----------



## The Stig

mycobraracr said:


> My quick definition of a sporty dog is one with over the top prey drive and low threshold.


What does low threshold mean in this context?


----------



## gsdsar

The Stig said:


> What does low threshold mean in this context?



Good question. Not sure what others definition is, but when I read it, I read sharpness. Quickness to react to stimulus. 

Someone once explained it to like this. 

Guy is sitting at a bar with girlfriend. Big dude walks in... 

A sharp dog gets off his barstool and punches him. A non sharp dog waits to be pushed off his barstool and big dude to kiss girlfriend before reacting. And all scenarios in between. So it's a threshold to stimulus that causes a dog to react aggressively. Personally I want middle ground. I want a dog that reacts when big dude gets in between dog and girlfriend him and engages girlfriend.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## simba405

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I think for sure some people make up stories to explain their dogs lack of control and poor OB.
> 
> However, I have experienced myself the difference in certain dogs capacity and endurance for obedience.
> 
> -Some dogs pick it up very quickly, they are easily motivated and rewarded, bounce back from corrections, can train for 15-20 minutes and maintain that flashy speed and precision. They can be doing the full IPO 1 routine with a good trainer pretty quickly. They always want to work and be doing something with you.
> 
> -Some dogs take much longer to learn OB, they have poorer retention, need to be constantly watched for precision because they tend to get lazy and sloppy if you dont stay on them. Same dogs often seem to have less endurance for the obedience as in they lose the prancy flashy expression in a several minutes if you dont work them carefully. They are more independent and while they enjoy the reward their expression wont be as appealing as dog # 1. If you ask to much they give you the mental finger.
> 
> Just my experience, I think both dogs can be good / bad. Obviously one will get you better points on the field.


Lol I think in your first example you basically described a good dog and in your second example described a mediocre dog. 

Not sure in what scenario someone would choose the second example over the first? 

A dog that only for focuses during the fight and easily loses focus in anything else isn't real. That's just a bad dog. 

Your two examples basically described my show line and my working line


----------



## mycobraracr

The Stig said:


> What does low threshold mean in this context?





gsdsar said:


> Good question. Not sure what others definition is, but when I read it, I read sharpness. Quickness to react to stimulus.
> 
> Someone once explained it to like this.
> 
> Guy is sitting at a bar with girlfriend. Big dude walks in...
> 
> A sharp dog gets off his barstool and punches him. A non sharp dog waits to be pushed off his barstool and big dude to kiss girlfriend before reacting. And all scenarios in between. So it's a threshold to stimulus that causes a dog to react aggressively. Personally I want middle ground. I want a dog that reacts when big dude gets in between dog and girlfriend him and engages girlfriend.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This basically sums it up. Sharpness quickness to react.


----------



## The Stig

Thanks!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

simba405 said:


> Lol I think in your first example you basically described a good dog and in your second example described a mediocre dog.
> 
> Not sure in what scenario someone would choose the second example over the first?
> 
> A dog that only for focuses during the fight and easily loses focus in anything else isn't real. That's just a bad dog.
> 
> Your two examples basically described my show line and my working line


 
Not necessarily. 

The first dog could be still be soft and unable to handle pressure. Look real pretty on the field but if truly pressured the grip goes bad. 

The second dog wont look as pretty but may be strong in protection. Could also be an exceptional tracker too.

Propensity for flashy obedience does not = a good dog imo. 

There are many working lines that are the second type of dog or are somewhere in the middle. They will bite for real, they will track and they will preform adequate obedience (just wont look as pretty or be as easy to train).

Look at some very well known studs both past and present. Many of them havent won anything. Dont have flashy obedience and are not easy to control. There is a reason they are being bred.


----------



## G-burg

I think of it as a dog who lacks fight, power and aggression.


----------



## onyx'girl

gsdsar said:


> There is a big difference in being correct in obedience and being flashy.
> 
> I have to say, not liking the negative connotation of sporty. Nothing wrong with sporty. If your goal is sport.
> 
> *To me a sport dog is uber flashy, very quick, gamey about their job. ITS ALL FUN AND GAMES!!! * I think it comes down to what you are looking for in a dog.
> 
> I don't have a sporty dog. I am good with that. Not sure if I have a "real" dog yet or not. If you can't tell by the quotes, I don't like that either.
> 
> *Sporty dogs tend to be much higher, much earlier, in toy drive, prey drive. Makes it easier to start them in work and hence quicker to the trial field. And in sport that's what you want. I can't tell you how many breeders sites that exclaim gladly their dogs were IPO 3 by a young age. *
> 
> *Dogs with less toy/prey have to be waited out a bit.* My boy is 16 months and we just recently started bitework.
> 
> But he tracks like a champ. His obedience is nicely coming along. I just had to wait for him to be mature enough to tap into other drives for bitework.


:thumbup:
This is one reason the sportier dogs are very popular....they don't need to be waited out and can get the 3 by 3 easier than one that is hardly mature by 3. 
Tracking IPO style, IMO is not natural, it is all obedience based. Though, there are many dogs that enjoy that type of repetitive tracking.


----------



## Liesje

Honestly I think most of it boils down to training style and priorities. When I see a dog I think is "sporty", I always consider the context: who trained that dog, how, and why? I think most dogs can present much different pictures in different hands and I also hate judging a dog or writing it off as if "sporty" is a bad thing until I really know more about that dog (like, seeing it tested in multiple venues of sport, not JUST doing IPO training or trial routines). Just because someone is a great trainer and actually enjoys spending a lot of time training their dog early on and ends up with a really nice picture and a high scoring dog does not mean I'm going to call that dog "sporty" as if it's a bad thing. I think too often we throw labels around as excuses for gaps in our own training or insecurities about our own dogs. I might say training a dog to do "protection" exercises using a toy with no helper present is kind of a "sporty" thing to do, but I won't say that the same dog can't be a "real" dog with different training and helperwork. I still won't reach into that dog's crate! 

I do a lot of dog sports and it's funny that in IPO, "sporty" seems to have a negative connotation, but in all other sports I do, it's a good thing.


----------



## GatorDog

Liesje said:


> Honestly I think most of it boils down to training style and priorities. When I see a dog I think is "sporty", I always consider the context: who trained that dog, how, and why? I think most dogs can present much different pictures in different hands and I also hate judging a dog or writing it off as if "sporty" is a bad thing until I really know more about that dog (like, seeing it tested in multiple venues of sport, not JUST doing IPO training or trial routines). Just because someone is a great trainer and actually enjoys spending a lot of time training their dog early on and ends up with a really nice picture and a high scoring dog does not mean I'm going to call that dog "sporty" as if it's a bad thing. I think too often we throw labels around as excuses for gaps in our own training or insecurities about our own dogs. I might say training a dog to do "protection" exercises using a toy with no helper present is kind of a "sporty" thing to do, but I won't say that the same dog can't be a "real" dog with different training and helperwork. I still won't reach into that dog's crate!
> 
> I do a lot of dog sports and it's funny that in IPO, "sporty" seems to have a negative connotation, but in all other sports I do, it's a good thing.


ALL OF THISS :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

How can someone call a dog sporty because the handler spent a lot of time developing and building in drive at a young age, vs a handler who decided to 
"wait" until the dog "matures". Two totally separate scenarios that are totally dependent on what the trainer/handler wanted to have accomplished with the dog and at what age they decided to do it. I think its awesome when a handler can compete with a titled dog at 2 years old. 

I think that more often than not, the people who refer to sporty dogs with a negative connotation are the ones who can't compete with good points due to lack of something in the training.


----------



## Baillif

At the highest levels you need a dog that can look good and sporty as well as be a beast. The world level IPO dogs with a little extra training would rip throats out on command in a "real fight." 

I hear people say oh real dog vs sport dog all the time but none of them are willing to fight a sport dog without equipment on here. Oh he will just bite equipment? Stand over there and hold this stick and put pressure on him while I send the dog and let's see. Never happens.


----------



## Liesje

Baillif said:


> At the highest levels you need a dog that can look good and sporty as well as be a beast. The world level IPO dogs with a little extra training would rip throats out on command in a "real fight."
> 
> I hear people say oh real dog vs sport dog all the time but none of them are willing to fight a sport dog without equipment on here. Oh he will just bite equipment? Stand over there and hold this stick and put pressure on him while I send the dog and let's see. Never happens.


Yep. There are no doubt dogs that can't really deal with pressure other than what has been learned/desensitized through trial routine training (or another pet peeve of mine, dogs that must be on a bite to feel secure and won't show forward aggression in guarding), but those aren't necessarily the dogs that look "sporty", flashy, whatever. Any dog that is lacking in something like courage, drive, fight, aggression...is just that, a dog lacking in something. Call it what it is. Who cares how the person trains the picture they like to present in trial? If they are qualifying and getting good scores then obviously they are doing a few things right....


----------



## lesslis

Interesting topic.
I have a dog that genetically is a "Real and Sporty dog. At the time, MY training experience, or lack thereof, definitely focused on bringing out the sporty, very obedient side of his genetics. Not sure this makes sense but the "real" is available genetically. but I unintentionally squashed more of that side with my lack of experience. Perfect dog for me. Really just wants to please. One day I may be able to handle and bring out more of the "real" in a dog.


----------



## G-burg

Not everyone thinks a "sporty dog" is a bad thing! Most of them will get you to where you want to go in the "sport"!


----------



## lhczth

Liesje said:


> Honestly I think most of it boils down to training style and priorities. When I see a dog I think is "sporty", I always consider the context: who trained that dog, how, and why? I think most dogs can present much different pictures in different hands and I also hate judging a dog or writing it off as if "sporty" is a bad thing until I really know more about that dog (like, seeing it tested in multiple venues of sport, not JUST doing IPO training or trial routines). Just because someone is a great trainer and actually enjoys spending a lot of time training their dog early on and ends up with a really nice picture and a high scoring dog does not mean I'm going to call that dog "sporty" as if it's a bad thing. I think too often we throw labels around as excuses for gaps in our own training or insecurities about our own dogs. I might say training a dog to do "protection" exercises using a toy with no helper present is kind of a "sporty" thing to do, but I won't say that the same dog can't be a "real" dog with different training and helperwork. I still won't reach into that dog's crate!
> 
> I do a lot of dog sports and it's funny that in IPO, "sporty" seems to have a negative connotation, but in all other sports I do, it's a good thing.


:thumbup:


----------



## Vandal

I think mostly, the term was created and used to insult. Now it seems to be something people use when they can't adequately describe a dog.


----------



## lhczth

GatorDog said:


> I think that more often than not, the people who refer to sporty dogs with a negative connotation are the ones who can't compete with good points due to lack of something in the training.


:thumbup: Or their skills as a trainer. Getting a dog like Sean O'Kane's Max (Art) to be a podium dog took a very good dog, a very good handler willing to work his rear off and a very good team supporting him. Anyone who knows this dog knows he is far from "sporty" or a "sport dog". 

Having said that, I need to go track my three dogs.


----------



## lhczth

Vandal said:


> I think mostly, the term was created and used to insult. Now it seems to be something people use when they can't adequately describe a dog.


:thumbup:


----------



## Vandal

BTW, since I started in SchH years ago, it has always been called a sport. The training has changed and mostly, the dog's innate behaviors cannot be as easily identified. This is a problem for the breed more than it is a problem for the sport...although in my opinion, the really tough and powerful dogs always made SchH much more fun to watch and participate in. 
In my experience, everyone really enjoys owning, working and watching a dog who means business. Contrary to popular belief, those dogs can be very easy to control when they are worked in a way that fits who they are.


----------



## björn

It´s not so complicated really. Sporty usually means a dog that is lacking things that make it good outside the sport, like courage in various situations and enough strenght of drives to follow thru both in bitework and tracking/searching, even if most probably refers to protectionwork and general character when discussing "sporty" dogs and "real" dogs. Who is more likely to score high in obedience, a lively alert dog quick in thought and actions with plenty of preydrive and willignes to please the handler, compared to a breed like a rottweiler and some GSDs for example who have a different mentality. A dog who has strong nerves, quite hard and sure of himself and may lack that liveliness of many malinois is probably not ideal for real high points and intensity in obedience.

Then some dogs could do both good, in the end what matters is if the dog is suited for the job or not, but for sport it´s a plus to have a more quick and alert dog to get the flash and speed. Tresholds is just how much stimulus a dog need to show a certain behaviour, this is not only about sharpness, even if a a dog who is more sharp will obviously need less of stimulus to respond with his sharpness.


----------



## lesslis

Reread my post. Did have a negative assumption regarding sporty dogs. Not intended. In IPo, I like to see more real fight than sport play. But balance is key.


----------



## Vandal

Well really, if someone told me they wanted to give me their "sporty dog", I probably would not want it, if all I had to go on was that term. I think the Prey Monkey thread links well into this one. Explains the evolution of the sport. 

The dogs used to be trained in a way where their perception of things was: find the bad guy hiding over there and then take HIM on. The fight was with the man, which requires much nerve, courage and fight drive.

Now, it is more about find the guy and get that sleeve. The drive for the sleeve is high enough to get them through the mild discomfort from a padded stick and the "pressure" from the helper. The funny thing about pressure is, the dogs feel much more of it when the helper is slower and more deliberate. The really fast and rabbit like helpers are more highly thought of now and even if they have a dirty look on their face when they drive the dogs, many do not have much going on inside, (presence), and 'that' is what the dogs really feel and can be disturbed by. Used to be the reed stick would make up for a bit of what the helpers lacked. That's gone now. 

The method using the prey instinct, ( that was once used to channel aggression and teach the dog calmness on the sleeve), is now used on dogs that don't have much of that aggression. I wish could do a better job of explaining, although I did post a pretty good explanation in that Prey monkey thread.

I watch these more easy to stimulate dogs and wonder just how well they would do if they were hit with a reed stick or if they could still manage to out after being subjected to the attack on handler, ( now gone from SchH 1) and then a reed stick hit. Pressure was intended to be cumulative in SchH, where we started to see the "cracks" as the routine and the trial progressed. Now the training and the test has removed/lessened that pressure and dogs that maybe years ago, would not pass, are Schh 3 and highly thought of.


----------



## lesslis

Yes, great explanation Vandal. 
What I like to watch vs training abilities may be different. Good breeders can tell and place appropriately.


----------



## martemchik

lesslis said:


> Yes, great explanation Vandal.
> What I like to watch vs training abilities may be different. Good breeders can tell and place appropriately.


You really believe that at 8 weeks old, a breeder can tell if a dog has true aggression or just over the top prey drive? Hmmm...

Or a person that claims they can see these things without ever taking a dog out to trial or train where some sort of pressure is put on the dog (even if it is the decreased pressure of today's IPO trial)?

Meh...to me, I think a proper dog can easily be taken in either direction. Either its trained by someone focusing on Schutzhund and has the flash, or it's actually working in a K9 or military application where the true aggression does get used.

I wish we could have an actual K9 officer tell us how many dogs his/her dog has actually bit/taken down, and how many of those people have actually fought back, and how important that aspect is. Like baliff said...how many of you would fight a "sporty" dog anyways?

Malanois are probably the most "sporty" dog...and the military and police don't have any issue using them.


----------



## lesslis

Yes, I do think a good breeder can most definitely see a litter at 8 weeks and make decisions on the best owner for their dogs. Absolutely!


----------



## lesslis

Imo, a good breeder works their current or possible breeding dogs, studies pedigrees, knows who is interested and capable of handling different strengths and bringing out the best of the genetics.


----------



## hunterisgreat

I have two dogs trained in parallel by the same hands. One is more sporty than the other. The other is more "real". There is a difference beyond training and handling which can be largely ruled out as a factor in my case


----------



## Liesje

hunterisgreat said:


> I have two dogs trained in parallel by the same hands. One is more sporty than the other. The other is more "real". There is a difference beyond training and handling which can be largely ruled out as a factor in my case


I am not saying the differences don't exist, I know they do and I know people can set training aside altogether and look at a pedigree to make a pretty educated guess on how a dog will behave or whether it will be more "sporty", but I think people are often too quick to judge a dog and don't consider the context. You obviously know quite a bit about your own dogs and I'd bet that training dog A still teaches you quite a bit about dog B and vice versa.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> I am not saying the differences don't exist, I know they do and I know people can set training aside altogether and look at a pedigree to make a pretty educated guess on how a dog will behave or whether it will be more "sporty", but I think people are often too quick to judge a dog and don't consider the context. You obviously know quite a bit about your own dogs and I'd bet that training dog A still teaches you quite a bit about dog B and vice versa.


Of course. I have unique clarity in what each dog is because of the intimate and constant comparison with the other.


----------



## MilesNY

In my own definition, "sporty" dogs handle repetitive training while maintaining high motivation better than non sporty dogs. That is really it for me. My female will heel all day for a toy with great enthusiasm. My male gets bored after awhile. He would work all day hunting for odor or something, but drops in drive with too much repetitive work. Both are capable of very nice work, but I know as a handler which one is enjoying it more. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lesslis

I know dogs are not widgets and even within great pedigrees and genetics you will get different strengths and weaknesses. Lots of variables. Training is just one. Guess what I was so terribly trying to get across was I love watching the,"real" dog and handler do the work but don't necessarily feel I would be the best handler for that dog.


----------



## Vandal

I used to train with a number of police agencies because, a friend I trained with in SchH, used to own a large police dog school out here. While it depended on each instance, there were a number of cases where the person fought back. Depending on what kind of "medicine" they were taking that day, they could fight back quite violently. We did teach a number of the dogs the same skills we taught in SchH, where they would hit back or counter when they were hit or threatened. Reinforcing that behavior in those dogs had a way of ending those violent encounters rather quickly.

I also board a number of the dogs from two of the largest depts in the country. We have talked quite a bit about what goes on with the dogs. Anyone who thinks a person does not fight the police must never watch the news I guess. 

As for fighting "sporty dogs", no, I doubt anyone would want to do something that might result in injury but there are dogs who will continually try to go back to the sleeve and be confused by what the helper is doing without one. The only way they try to bite is basically when the helper corners them. I have seen that quite a few times.

Years ago, most of the Police dogs were SchH titled. SchH had a purpose in that it could give you a very good idea if the dog could do that work. That connection with the police, while not gone completely, is not at all what it used to be. Again, SchH had a purpose, it wasn't simply a sport.


----------



## onyx'girl

Vandal said:


> Well really, if someone told me they wanted to give me their "sporty dog", I probably would not want it, if all I had to go on was that term. I think the Prey Monkey thread links well into this one. Explains the evolution of the sport.
> 
> The dogs used to be trained in a way where their perception of things was: find the bad guy hiding over there and then take HIM on. The fight was with the man, which requires much nerve, courage and fight drive.
> 
> Now, it is more about find the guy and get that sleeve. The drive for the sleeve is high enough to get them through the mild discomfort from a padded stick and the "pressure" from the helper. The funny thing about pressure is, the dogs feel much more of it when the helper is slower and more deliberate. The really fast and rabbit like helpers are more highly thought of now and even if they have a dirty look on their face when they drive the dogs, many do not have much going on inside, (presence), and 'that' is what the dogs really feel and can be disturbed by. Used to be the reed stick would make up for a bit of what the helpers lacked. That's gone now.
> 
> The method using the prey instinct, ( that was once used to channel aggression and teach the dog calmness on the sleeve), is now used on dogs that don't have much of that aggression. I wish could do a better job of explaining, although I did post a pretty good explanation in that Prey monkey thread.
> 
> I watch these more easy to stimulate dogs and wonder just how well they would do if they were hit with a reed stick or if they could still manage to out after being subjected to the attack on handler, ( now gone from SchH 1) and then a reed stick hit. Pressure was intended to be cumulative in SchH, where we started to see the "cracks" as the routine and the trial progressed. Now the training and the test has removed/lessened that pressure and dogs that maybe years ago, would not pass, are Schh 3 and highly thought of.


I wonder how many dogs would crack if the pattern was upset or the routine was out of whack. So many are pattern training these dogs, no wonder the word robotic has been used to describe performances.


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> I wonder how many dogs would crack if the pattern was upset or the routine was out of whack. So many are pattern training these dogs, no wonder the word robotic has been used to describe performances.


I know and have trained with plenty of dogs that rely on that pattern. I personally am very averse to to pattern training. My training takes much longer, my points in sport suffer as a result, but it's the picture I want.


----------



## onyx'girl

When I did my IPO1 trial last fall, I was in the middle of the obedience routine and the dog broke the long down so I was ordered to sit my dog(this went on for several minutes while the dogs handler was trying to get him back under control)
Because I don't pattern train often, my dog wasn't really affected by it, but my mojo was off and I never got it back!
I was concerned that the out of control dog would come over to mine and start something. 
It wasn't the best way to trial for the first time, but luckily we train with distractions often, so it wasn't a big deal to my dog, only to me and my handler nerves.


----------



## lhczth

I would agree that pattern training can help weak dogs especially when working on their home field. You will start seeing the weaknesses come through, though, as the environment changes and starts stressing the nerve. Long trips to a strange field that the team has only seen for 5 minutes, maybe a long flight or nasty weather conditions. The pattern work doesn't help the dog much then. 

People pattern train for one reason and that is to help the dog. It may be to help the weak dog get through the club trial. It can be to get a poorly trained dog through a trial. It can also be to help the dog and remove that one variable when the team will be out there competing. I do not pattern train for the most part. I find it too boring as do my dogs. I can understand why some of the podium people do it.


----------



## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> I would agree that pattern training can help weak dogs especially when working on their home field. You will start seeing the weaknesses come through, though, as the environment changes and starts stressing the nerve. Long trips to a strange field that the team has only seen for 5 minutes, maybe a long flight or nasty weather conditions. The pattern work doesn't help the dog much then.
> 
> People pattern train for one reason and that is to help the dog. It may be to help the weak dog get through the club trial. It can be to get a poorly trained dog through a trial. It can also be to help the dog and remove that one variable when the team will be out there competing. I do not pattern train for the most part. I find it too boring as do my dogs. I can understand why some of the podium people do it.


Pattern training helps *all* dogs


----------



## lhczth

Agree, but I stand by what I said: once a weak dog leaves its familiar environment the ****** in its armor will start to show, pattern training or not. 

Actually I find that pattern training can cause other issues and is not always a help especially with intelligent dogs.


----------



## GatorDog

I don't think pattern training is going to make the overall picture of a good dog any different at all. Either the dog knows and understands the commands given, or it doesn't. Sure, it might help that weak dog on their home field, but it won't change that dog and that weakness will be seen throughout the routine. And I can guarantee you that when someone like Deb Zappia or Mike Diehl tells their dog to platz, it will platz..Whenever, wherever. I don't understand how someone's points could "suffer" when not pattern training because its not about the pattern. Either they know it or they don't...


----------



## onyx'girl

Mike D pattern trains...trial picture is very important in his program(or so he said at a recent seminar)


----------



## bill

Pattern training is not like a group of danc 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> I don't think pattern training is going to make the overall picture of a good dog any different at all. Either the dog knows and understands the commands given, or it doesn't. Sure, it might help that weak dog on their home field, but it won't change that dog and that weakness will be seen throughout the routine. And I can guarantee you that when someone like Deb Zappia or Mike Diehl tells their dog to platz, it will platz..Whenever, wherever. I don't understand how someone's points could "suffer" when not pattern training because its not about the pattern. Either they know it or they don't...


Overall picture of the pattern? No,no different. Outside the pattern, yes. 

That's because Deb and Diehl don't pattern train. They train behaviors and chain them together in a trial. Pattern training is faster, end of story. It also doesn't convey well to real world use.

Or at least, Diehl doesn't with his street dogs lol


----------



## bill

Dancers training and practicing their moves. To get them right in sport dogs to get the best score practice helps make perf sect! My phon

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## bill

Phone is acting up sorry Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> Mike D pattern trains...trial picture is very important in his program(or so he said at a recent seminar)


Which supports what I said about pattern training and it's value to sport + points


----------



## hunterisgreat

bill said:


> Dancers training and practicing their moves. To get them right in sport dogs to get the best score practice helps make perf sect! My phon
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Exactly. High level IPO is giving a performance, not unlike a figure skater... Beat the pattern into the brain and it becomes second nature. Doesn't convey well to say, hockey


----------



## GatorDog

hunterisgreat said:


> Overall picture of the pattern? No,no different. Outside the pattern, yes.
> 
> That's because Deb and Diehl don't pattern train. They train behaviors and chain them together in a trial. Pattern training is faster, end of story. It also doesn't convey well to real world use.
> 
> Or at least, Diehl doesn't with his street dogs lol


But competitive sport and real world use aren't even comparable. In the "real world" you won't be judged on how fast your dog locks up into a stand out of running. The point of pattern training in high levels is to get absolute precision with zero point loss. That doesn't mean the dog wouldn't know the command in an outside situation, and I think assuming that it would be the case is just not a logical assumption.

You'd also be surprised about what handlers do train their dogs to a "pattern". But the real end of the story is that fuss means fuss, sit means sit and platz means platz. Pattern or not.


----------



## carmspack

martemchik said:


> You really believe that at 8 weeks old, a breeder can tell if a dog has true aggression or just over the top prey drive? Hmmm...
> 
> Or a person that claims they can see these things without ever taking a dog out to trial or train where some sort of pressure is put on the dog (even if it is the decreased pressure of today's IPO trial)?
> 
> Meh...to me, I think a proper dog can easily be taken in either direction. Either its trained by someone focusing on Schutzhund and has the flash, or it's actually working in a K9 or military application where the true aggression does get used.
> 
> I wish we could have an actual K9 officer tell us how many dogs his/her dog has actually bit/taken down, and how many of those people have actually fought back, and how important that aspect is. Like baliff said...how many of you would fight a "sporty" dog anyways?
> 
> Malanois are probably the most "sporty" dog...and the military and police don't have any issue using them.




why not ? Breeding is a process , a deliberate selection for traits . The pedigree will have reason to expect a trait , or not . The sire , the dam, their littermates and the progeny of the littermates and previous breedings of the sire and dam will give a good clue.
The pups' behaviour within the litter will reveal what they are. The litter will have grades of that character , which the genetics determine.
You can see pups that have priority rights . They tend not to disappoint.
He'll be the guy with the beer foam moustache , not the milk moustache. You can tell.

There is a difference. The decoy can feel it . The judge can see it . Sometimes at end of performance on trial day when points are announced the judge will make special comments , like, "this is more than a sport dog" .


----------



## onyx'girl

onyx'girl said:


> Mike D pattern trains...trial picture is very important in his program(or so he said at a recent seminar)


 I should add 'when the dog is proofed' trial picture always. <from my notes of the seminar


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> But competitive sport and real world use aren't even comparable. In the "real world" you won't be judged on how fast your dog locks up into a stand out of running. The point of pattern training in high levels is to get absolute precision with zero point loss. That doesn't mean the dog wouldn't know the command in an outside situation, and I think assuming that it would be the case is just not a logical assumption.
> 
> You'd also be surprised about what handlers do train their dogs to a "pattern". But the real end of the story is that fuss means fuss, sit means sit and platz means platz. Pattern or not.


Dogs don't generalize well. 

Go send your dog on a revere on an unequipped guy in a car and let me know what happens


----------



## Vandal

I have to agree. I have not really felt that working a dog in the routine is the problem...or if it is, it's a small one.


----------



## GatorDog

hunterisgreat said:


> Dogs don't generalize well.
> 
> Go send your dog on a revere on an unequipped guy in a car and let me know what happens


If it was trained for that, then the dog would do it. Send any untrained dog to do that and let me know how that works out.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## bill

Put. A muzzle on the dog then see what happens' some dogs will surprise you!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Liesje

In my somewhat limited experience with IPO so far, I can't say I've met many people that really pattern trains. What I have met are lots of people that like to do all sorts of gimmicks. Stuff like wiping a finger on a dog's forehead before a bite, always doing three retrieves, always doing a send out after three retrieves, giving a special cue while setting up for a send-out, giving special cues in the parking lot before a certain phase. I've been criticized for recalling my dog out of a sit (b/c in trial you always go back to the dog), or throwing a ball the opposite direction to reward a platz and letting the dog break (b/c in trial he will be recalled from platz), or rewarding my dog for jumping one direction (b/c in trial he will always jump back). I guess I feel like all the gimmicks are just ANOTHER thing to train. Why can't the dog just do what I say when I say it? Because chances are, I'll try these gimmicks or subtle handler helping cues, get to trial and get nervous, and my dog will "read" me completely differently anyway.

Anyway, that doesn't have much to do with "sporty" dogs, just something I've observed. Not unique to IPO either, people have lots of gimmicks in the other sports I do, most of which seem to have zero effect on the dog's performance or actually backfire.


----------



## onyx'girl

superstitions....


----------



## GatorDog

onyx'girl said:


> superstitions....


Lol this is what I think too. I really don't think those kind of things are what's going to hold a top level dog together.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> If it was trained for that, then the dog would do it. Send any untrained dog to do that and let me know how that works out.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Exactly... Trained for that... Not pattern trained


----------



## hunterisgreat

bill said:


> Put. A muzzle on the dog then see what happens' some dogs will surprise you!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Both mine do muzzle work


----------



## bill

Good dogs hunter is great!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> why not ? Breeding is a process , a deliberate selection for traits . The pedigree will have reason to expect a trait , or not . The sire , the dam, their littermates and the progeny of the littermates and previous breedings of the sire and dam will give a good clue.
> The pups' behaviour within the litter will reveal what they are. The litter will have grades of that character , which the genetics determine.
> You can see pups that have priority rights . They tend not to disappoint.
> He'll be the guy with the beer foam moustache , not the milk moustache. You can tell.
> 
> There is a difference. The decoy can feel it . The judge can see it . Sometimes at end of performance on trial day when points are announced the judge will make special comments , like, "this is more than a sport dog" .


If this was the case all those world competitors wouldnt be going through dogs like water. Nor would they waste money on a young dog when they could by a pup for less and be sure it was the real deal. You make educated guesses, but its still a crap shoot.


----------



## lhczth

Pups bring risk as far as joints and not everyone enjoys the puppy experience. Not everyone is good with developing pups either. Plus, not all world competitors go through dogs like water. It is less common in Europe than here. In the states most are competitors first and foremost so they don't want to spend 2-2.5 years working with a young dog. They want a dog that can trial ASAP.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If this was the case all those world competitors wouldnt be going through dogs like water. Nor would they waste money on a young dog when they could by a pup for less and be sure it was the real deal. You make educated guesses, but its still a crap shoot.


They go through dogs to find the highest scoring. Not the "best"


----------



## GatorDog

hunterisgreat said:


> They go through dogs to find the highest scoring. Not the "best"


Sounds a lot like a personal opinion to me.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

You think they can pick the "beasts" out of the box? The evidence, experience and word of mouth sure doesnt suggest that.
I think many top competitors want the strongest dog they can find. They look for dogs like Irmus, Chris etc. Im sure some are all about just the points but many are about the dog too imo.


----------



## GatorDog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You think they can pick the "beasts" out of the box? The evidence, experience and word of mouth sure doesnt suggest that.
> *I think many top competitors want the strongest dog they can find.* They look for dogs like Irmus, Chris etc. Im sure some are all about just the points but many are about the dog too imo.


This. Anything less isn't going to place on the podium. And until anyone here can say that they know what it takes to get there, bashing the quality of dogs involved in the sport isn't going to convince me otherwise.


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> Sounds a lot like a personal opinion to me.


It is. But I've worked current world level sport dogs, and police dogs, and everything in-between, as a helper. I know the difference. I consider anyone with experience only as a handler as uninformed


----------



## GatorDog

hunterisgreat said:


> It is. But I've worked current world level sport dogs, and police dogs, and everything in-between, as a helper. I know the difference. I consider anyone with experience only as a handler as uninformed


"Everything in between"? When was the last time you were selected as a helper for a regional or national competition? 

You don't need to be the helper to know the difference.


----------



## GatorDog

I should also add that its my just "personal opinion" that there are plenty of macho manly men out there who feel the need to put on a sleeve and call themselves the best decoys ever. But I consider someone with only their own massively oversized ego as their reference point as uninformed.


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> "Everything in between"? When was the last time you were selected as a helper for a regional or national competition?
> 
> You don't need to be the helper to know the difference.


I did the breed survey on a current world competitor. Does that count? I've done helper work both in trials and in training for multiple different SE regional competitors including the 2014 SE regional champion. Does that count?

I hate trial helper work. It's boring and stressful. Training helper work thrills me

If you're not on the business end, you don't see the full picture. That's just the truth


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> I should also add that its my just "personal opinion" that there are plenty of macho manly men out there who feel the need to put on a sleeve and call themselves the best decoys ever. But I consider someone with only their own massively oversized ego as their reference point as uninformed.


If you think I have an ego, go ask anyone I train with of I have an ego  or come train with me. You'll find I do not, and I'm quite blunt and to the point


----------



## carmspack

Lisa said -

"Not everyone is good with developing pups either. Plus, not all world competitors go through dogs like water. It is less common in Europe than here. In the states most are competitors first and foremost so they don't want to spend 2-2.5 years working with a young dog. They want a dog that can trial ASAP. "

This is what I was hoping Bjorn might shed some light on from his European perspective. 
I feel there is a rush to trail as soon as possible , and I feel there is an assembly line approach rather than a personalized , custom made training and social program.
There isn't the connection between handler and dog . This , replaced with a connection between some training implement and dog.

This was the question to which I responded "You really believe that at 8 weeks old, a breeder can tell if a dog has true aggression or just over the top prey drive? "

My answer referred to litters , genetic predisposition, not so much individuals.


----------



## GatorDog

hunterisgreat said:


> I did the breed survey on a current world competitor. Does that count? I've done helper work both in trials and in training for multiple different SE regional competitors including the 2014 SE regional champion. Does that count?
> 
> I hate trial helper work. It's boring and stressful. Training helper work thrills me
> 
> If you're not on the business end, you don't see the full picture. That's just the truth


LOL ok. Not even worth this conversation.


----------



## GatorDog

hunterisgreat said:


> I did the breed survey on a current world competitor. Does that count? I've done helper work both in trials and in training for multiple different SE regional competitors including the 2014 SE regional champion. Does that count?
> 
> I hate trial helper work. It's boring and stressful. Training helper work thrills me
> 
> If you're not on the business end, you don't see the full picture. That's just the truth


Right. And how many top competitors are working their own dogs and would know?


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> LOL ok. Not even worth this conversation.


We agree there


----------



## carmspack

by the way I don't consider "sporty" to be an insult .

If you are in sport , as it has evolved to be , it seems logical to have the dog that is best suited , that can provide the best outcome .


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> Right. And how many top competitors are working their own dogs and would know?


Thought we weren't doing this...

You don't have to work a given dog (it helps) to know him... But if you work dogs, you know *all* dogs better. Does that make sense?


----------



## GatorDog

hunterisgreat said:


> Thought we weren't doing this...
> 
> You don't have to work a given dog (it helps) to know him... But if you work dogs, you know *all* dogs better. Does that make sense?


No. Not at all. Because I'm still trying to make sense of where exactly your depth of expertise is coming from. There are quite a few people who have been successful competitors without working dogs. So no. I really don't understand how someone who isn't a helper and must be so "uninformed" could possibly make it to that level, or ever compare with your level of experience.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## The Stig

Can someone define pattern training, and give examples? And what is the counter method to pattern training? 

Is pattern training consistency and step-by-step, by the book method, or is it something totally different? 

Actually, I will just shut up cos I probably am talking nonsense.


----------



## Vandal

This is a rough crowd in here. I am a little scared to say anything at this point. lol. Ah what the heck...



> Right. And how many top competitors are working their own dogs and would know?


Probably none but speaking from experience, on both sides of the equation, I would say anyone trying to go there looks for the best helper and the best team of people to help them. I would also venture to guess that anyone interested in buying a dog with that in mind, is going to ask the opinion of someone who is experienced at helper work. I know I would if I couldn't work the dog myself.


----------



## gsdsar

The Stig said:


> Can someone define pattern training, and give examples? And what is the counter method to pattern training?
> 
> Is pattern training consistency and step-by-step, by the book method, or is it something totally different?
> 
> Actually, I will just shut up cos I probably am talking nonsense.



Pattern training is working the "pattern". So pretty much training to the test. Doing the test for BH over and over again. 50 paces at an a normal pace, left turn 15 paces, right turn 15 paces, about turn, 15 paces normal..,...( BTW Not actually the routine), over and over again

The opposite is taking the basics and doing different things. NOT over running the pattern that will be run on the test. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> No. Not at all. Because I'm still trying to make sense of where exactly your depth of expertise is coming from. There are quite a few people who have been successful competitors without working dogs. So no. I really don't understand how someone who isn't a helper and must be so "uninformed" could possibly make it to that level, or ever compare with your level of experience.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've already said what my experience is. 

See Anne's comment


----------



## GatorDog

Vandal said:


> This is a rough crowd in here. I am a little scared to say anything at this point. lol. Ah what the heck...
> 
> 
> 
> Probably none but speaking from experience, on both sides of the equation, I would say anyone trying to go there looks for the best helper and the best team of people to help them. I would also venture to guess that anyone interested in buying a dog with that in mind, is going to ask the opinion of someone who is experienced at helper work. I know I would if I couldn't work the dog myself.


Yep, I definitely agree with you and it's what I would do when interested in a dog that I don't have any real personal experience with. What I don't agree with is someone telling me that anyone who isn't a helper is uninformed. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> Yep, I definitely agree with you and it's what I would do when interested in a dog that I don't have any real personal experience with. What I don't agree with is someone telling me that anyone who isn't a helper is uninformed.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm sorry I really didn't mean to insult you. How about this. If you started doing helper work regularly right now, your understanding and knowledge of dogs would grow immensely. Not saying you don't know a lot now, just that you'd multiply that wisdom with helper work experience


----------



## Jax08

There ya go, Alexis. Have Scott teach you helper work!


----------



## David Winners

How could doing helper work, especially under the tutelage of an experienced helper, not increase your knowledge of dogs?


----------



## bill

I remember when I was learning protection' and to train dogs' I was taught you had to be a good actor and to read the dog! When you do this long enough you learn to read the dog' and you truly become a better helper ' trainer.
I see where hunter is coming from so clearly.
Gatordog your dog is looking great! And I truly don't think hunter meant to offend you. J.m.o.
Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jax08

David Winners said:


> How could doing helper work, especially under the tutelage of an experienced helper, not increase your knowledge of dogs?


I'm sure that is not what Alexis is saying, especially since she lives with a helper who just worked a national level event.


----------



## martemchik

carmspack said:


> why not ? Breeding is a process , a deliberate selection for traits . The pedigree will have reason to expect a trait , or not . The sire , the dam, their littermates and the progeny of the littermates and previous breedings of the sire and dam will give a good clue.
> The pups' behaviour within the litter will reveal what they are. The litter will have grades of that character , which the genetics determine.
> You can see pups that have priority rights . They tend not to disappoint.
> He'll be the guy with the beer foam moustache , not the milk moustache. You can tell.
> 
> There is a difference. The decoy can feel it . The judge can see it . Sometimes at end of performance on trial day when points are announced the judge will make special comments , like, "this is more than a sport dog" .


The decoy can feel it? The judge can see it? All that at 8 weeks huh...

I'm not saying a good breeder, that has a track record of producing K9 and top level sport competitors isn't going to be successful at placing dogs. The point is, that if you have two puppies in the litter at 8 weeks old that are spectacular, I highly doubt you can figure out which of the dogs is the "real" one and which one is the "sport" one. But what does happen is that which ever venue the dog enters, it will excel at because the handler/trainer has taken the foundation that's already there genetically and has molded it more to what they are looking for.


----------



## GatorDog

Just because someone can wear a sleeve does not mean that they can actually perform in a way to put pressure on the dogs to be able to see what your looking for.

And saying that you might gain more in depth knowledge as to the way a dog appears in protection is one thing, but calling all others uninformed is another. Go ahead and tell that to all the women who have competed/won the nationals, BSP, and WUSV who are psychically incapable of working dogs. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## GatorDog

Here's a good question. If the judge can see what they need to see to draw conclusions to base a score off of in protection, without having to put the sleeve on for the dog themselves, then according to your statements, how do they really know what's going on with that dog? There are quite a few women judges out there who I know don't practice any helper work, so how do they know what they're looking at in protection? Or are you saying that they don't. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack

Yes . I said "There is a difference. The decoy can feel it . The judge can see it . Sometimes at end of performance on trial day when points are announced the judge will make special comments , like, "this is more than a sport dog" .

Martemchik , 
"The decoy can feel it? The judge can see it? All that at 8 weeks huh..."


really , how can you extrapolate that . 8 weeks , come on . 

I am saying that there is a difference in the sporty dog , (defined as prey / play for "modern" sport) and the older type with active or social aggression, coined "real".

martemchik go back and read my previous post where I said it wouldn't be a particular pup in a litter . The entire breeding would be in the category with variations or degrees of intensity , all sharing the genetic predispositions. 

so then what you said " The point is, that if you have two puppies in the litter at 8 weeks old that are spectacular, I highly doubt you can figure out which of the dogs is the "real" one and which one is the "sport" one " 

wouldn't be the case .


----------



## carmspack

"If the judge can see what they need to see to draw conclusions to base a score off of in protection, without having to put the sleeve on for the dog themselves, then according to your statements, how do they really know what's going on with that dog? "

Do judges come up from the ranks , handler/trainer to decoy to judge ? Do the decoy and judge confer with each other?

Judge able to see dog from different angle and proximity from handler and spectators . Judge should have enough experience to compare a dog's performance from others that he has seen to determine if the dog is adequate , the norm, or different , good or bad .


----------



## onyx'girl

I like how Brian describes the difference in dogs...and he can usually read an unknown dog very well when it comes onto the field, and will work the dog in the dogs natural type, instead of trying to work all dogs the same:
The Four Basic Dog Types | PronouncedK9


----------



## ayoitzrimz

hunterisgreat said:


> I'm sorry I really didn't mean to insult you. How about this. If you started doing helper work regularly right now, your understanding and knowledge of dogs would grow immensely. Not saying you don't know a lot now, just that you'd multiply that wisdom with helper work experience


I can say this about that: Doing helperwork on other club dogs (2 WUSV competitors among them) and learning from an experienced helper and TD has actually taught me more about my OWN dog than handling my dog ever did. Not saying one of you is right and the other is wrong, and not saying handlers are "uninformed" - that's just silly, but I am saying that there's this entire grey area that becomes very very clear once you spend some time on the other side of that phase in training for me at least.

With that said, Alexis from your videos you are a much better handler than I am so take the above with a grain of salt - there is more than one way to learn how read and train dogs.


----------



## GatorDog

ayoitzrimz said:


> I can say this about that: Doing helperwork on other club dogs (2 WUSV competitors among them) and learning from an experienced helper and TD has actually taught me more about my OWN dog than handling my dog ever did. Not saying one of you is right and the other is wrong, and not saying handlers are "uninformed" - that's just silly, but I am saying that there's this entire grey area that becomes very very clear once you spend some time on the other side of that phase in training for me at least.
> 
> With that said, Alexis from your videos you are a much better handler than I am so take the above with a grain of salt - there is more than one way to learn how read and train dogs.


I totally agree with you. I do believe that as a helper, you see things first hand in the dogs that many people don't. But I also think people can learn what those things are by working with an experienced helper without having to put the sleeve on themselves. The idea that helpers are the elite and the rest of us are just "uninformed" is what baffles me. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Vandal

> Just because someone can wear a sleeve does not mean that they can actually perform in a way to put pressure on the dogs to be able to see what your looking for.


 
This, I totally agree with. It is an absolute rarity and always has been. The good helpers can simply stand and look at the dog and the dog feels it. 
However, we will never have enough helpers in SchH, so anyone who shows a high level of interest should be encouraged, in my opinion. At least until they prove they are too obnoxious to work with. lol. 

I agree about people who have a very good understanding of dogs without working them as well. Not that many of those types either but what they all seem to recognize, is the difference in their own dogs, when someone talented works them as the helper.


----------



## bill

Like I said you have to be a good actor! A lot of performers' not that many great actors they are the one's that get the academy award. Helpers are the same in my opinion. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## The Stig

Thank you, GSDSAR, for explaining what pattern training meant. 




martemchik said:


> The decoy can feel it? The judge can see it? All that at 8 weeks huh...


OK, this here... looks like starting drama for the sake of starting it. I may be a noob but I do not lack common sense. I definitely did not interpret Carmen's conclusion the way this was being read.


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> Just because someone can wear a sleeve does not mean that they can actually perform in a way to put pressure on the dogs to be able to see what your looking for.
> 
> And saying that you might gain more in depth knowledge as to the way a dog appears in protection is one thing, but calling all others uninformed is another. Go ahead and tell that to all the women who have competed/won the nationals, BSP, and WUSV who are psychically incapable of working dogs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Don't be sexist. Women can work dogs just as effectively as men


----------



## hunterisgreat

Ok fine "uninformed" wasn't the right word.


----------



## The Stig

onyx'girl said:


> I like how Brian describes the difference in dogs...and he can usually read an unknown dog very well when it comes onto the field, and will work the dog in the dogs natural type, instead of trying to work all dogs the same:
> The Four Basic Dog Types | PronouncedK9


Bookmarking this link. I tried to click on the different types, but they aren't links. I am unsure how to differentiate Play, Prey, Aggressive, and Defensive; will explore the website further later. 

However, in the Defensive tag, he posted a video:
defensive Archives | PronouncedK9

Is the helper what Vandal and other members were referring to as a helper with presence? And is being a defensive dog the reason why she is focused on the helper rather than the sleeve? 

Just trying to keep up with the learning curve here.

[edit: The reason I asked about the sleeve is one of the young dog that trains w/ us seems more focused on the sleeve than the helper. But that could just be my inexperienced eye as well. Also, I just realized this but once the helper releases the sleeve, the dog is done for that period... so it is different from the video. My bad.]


----------



## martemchik

The Stig said:


> Bookmarking this link. I tried to click on the different types, but they aren't links. I am unsure how to differentiate Play, Prey, Aggressive, and Defensive; will explore the website further later.
> 
> However, in the Defensive tag, he posted a video:
> defensive Archives | PronouncedK9
> 
> Is the helper what Vandal and other members were referring to as a helper with presence? And is being a defensive dog the reason why she is focused on the helper rather than the sleeve?
> 
> Just trying to keep up with the learning curve here.


Do you work your dog? I'm just asking because its almost like the only way to learn is to watch the dogs work. Kind of have to understand what people are seeing, have it pointed out to you, to understand why they make the assumptions or decisions they do.

Defensive dogs do tend to focus more on the man than on the sleeve...but then there are also plenty of "natural" man eating dogs. With a good training helper, you can get a more prey driven dog to learn to focus more on the man as well, but some people that are just doing the sport don't really care because having a dog that's more sleeve focused is safer out in the street because the dog is very clear about only biting a sleeve. That is also something that is possible to fix using a hidden sleeve if you want your dog to understand it can also bite people for protection work.

Defensive dogs tend to have a better bark, better guarding, where as the prey dogs are going to look flashier, go all out for a sleeve. Defensive dogs tend to have calmer bites...the bite releases all that frustration and stress that the helper is presenting in order to get the dog defensive, where as a more prey driven dog keeps nibbling the sleeve, shaking it, pretty much thinking the sleeve is a small prey animal that it must kill. Again, all these things are fixable by balancing the drive through training.


----------



## Liesje

The Stig said:


> Bookmarking this link. I tried to click on the different types, but they aren't links. I am unsure how to differentiate Play, Prey, Aggressive, and Defensive; will explore the website further later.
> 
> However, in the Defensive tag, he posted a video:
> defensive Archives | PronouncedK9
> 
> Is the helper what Vandal and other members were referring to as a helper with presence? And is being a defensive dog the reason why she is focused on the helper rather than the sleeve?
> 
> Just trying to keep up with the learning curve here.
> 
> [edit: The reason I asked about the sleeve is one of the young dog that trains w/ us seems more focused on the sleeve than the helper. But that could just be my inexperienced eye as well. Also, I just realized this but once the helper releases the sleeve, the dog is done for that period... so it is different from the video. My bad.]


Not commenting on the clip but I will say one of my dogs tends to fall more on the defense side. The prey drive is certainly there but the helper has to bring it out. He's also a higher threshold dog so he won't come out frothing at the mouth for bites just because he got a glance of a sleeve on the ground. The more the helper pushes, the more power the dog will bring. I don't necessarily think that a dog with more defense is more "real"; I think prey drive can be very powerful, especially a dog that is not just playing but really seeking to catch and drag down a helper like a large prey object. I want my dog to work in prey and not just default to defense. Anyway, Brian (the person in the video) has worked my dogs several times and he always does a good job of pushing the right buttons, is one of few people who has been able to show me my dogs at their best and bring balance to their bitework. What that looks like just depends on the dog and the day, my video may end up looking a lot different.


----------



## The Stig

Hello Martemchik,

I started training my dog mid March. She is 6 years old, and mostly WGSL so um... we are like, green green ponies in this arena. I had her evaluated for the short-term goal of doing our BH (long story why we started late) and upon the recommendation of our TD, she started tracking in hopes of earning our TR1. 

However, not many dogs in our small, unofficial club are too advanced in their training in protection phase. Only two have advanced onto the sleeve. Our trainer & local members drive to the club in San Diego to work in protection. But due to scheduling conflict I have not been able to join them. He is a handler for that club, but I will heed your advice and try to attend more training sessions in protection. Exposure is a good idea. Thanks.

Usually we work on obedience and tracking up here in Riverside. It is definitely a labour of love, and highly addictive.


----------



## The Stig

This was extremely helpful. Thanks. I need simple explanations, like a Kindergartener. 



martemchik said:


> Defensive dogs do tend to focus more on the man than on the sleeve...but then there are also plenty of "natural" man eating dogs. With a good training helper, you can get a more prey driven dog to learn to focus more on the man as well, but some people that are just doing the sport don't really care because having a dog that's more sleeve focused is safer out in the street because the dog is very clear about only biting a sleeve. That is also something that is possible to fix using a hidden sleeve if you want your dog to understand it can also bite people for protection work.
> 
> Defensive dogs tend to have a better bark, better guarding, where as the prey dogs are going to look flashier, go all out for a sleeve. Defensive dogs tend to have calmer bites...the bite releases all that frustration and stress that the helper is presenting in order to get the dog defensive, where as a more prey driven dog keeps nibbling the sleeve, shaking it, pretty much thinking the sleeve is a small prey animal that it must kill. Again, all these things are fixable by balancing the drive through training.


----------



## carmspack

to this "Defensive dogs tend to have a better bark, better guarding, where as the prey dogs are going to look flashier, go all out for a sleeve. Defensive dogs tend to have calmer bites...the bite releases all that frustration and stress that the helper is presenting in order to get the dog defensive, where as a more prey driven dog keeps nibbling the sleeve, shaking it, pretty much thinking the sleeve is a small prey animal that it must kill. Again, all these things are fixable by balancing the drive through training. "

not entirely so , because remember defense could have two sides, both fight or flight , or fight to a point and then resort to flight.

The barking changes in pitch and speed when the stress level is approached . Clarity can be lost when the stress threshold is exceeded .


----------



## The Stig

I thought dressage was a difficult sport, but reading/training dogs is SO hard. The more I read, the more I feel intimidated. 

I feel like I am at the bottom of the mountain, and the climb is terrifyingly mysterious and complicated. I feel bad Janka is my guinea pig, because even during training, the learning curve is steeper for me than it is for her. She enjoys being out there, I layer on performance anxiety and unwarranted expectations on top of my inexperience, which further gets in the way. I am learning to be a handler while guiding her along, and I know I am retarding her progress. 

This reminds me of when I first started Dressage at a hunter/jumper barn under a Dressage trainer, on feisty little green sport ponies. One step forward, two steps back. It was like the blind leading the blind...


----------



## Vandal

Not really certain I agree with the remarks about behaviors and drives but whatever.Good helpers use all of the drives to build a confident/powerful dog. 

Presense is an attitude that is inside the helper. Many times, only the dogs can see it. It threatens/challenges the dogs and the people who have it, if they are mindful to reinforce the dog, will bring much more out of your dog than someone who doesn't. Reader's Digest version here but it is not something that can simply be taught to a person, they have to have it in them.


----------



## ayoitzrimz

Vandal said:


> Not really certain I agree with the remarks about behaviors and drives but whatever.Good helpers use all of the drives to build a confident/powerful dog.
> 
> Presense is an attitude that is inside the helper. Many times, only the dogs can see it. It threatens/challenges the dogs and the people who have it, if they are mindful to reinforce the dog, will bring much more out of your dog than someone who doesn't. Reader's Digest version here but it is not something that can simply be taught to a person, they have to have it in them.


I couldn't disagree more with all due respect. Give humans some credit, they are extremely adapt at learning new things and can change their mindset and their presence with training and experience.

Sure some people will always be a duds, and each person has his/her "ceiling" when it comes to qualities you'd look for in a helper but to say you are either born with a stick in one hand a sleeve in the other and the innate ability to pull some jedi mind tricks on dogs OR you will never be able to be a quality helper - well that sounds like a lot of generalizing to me. 

Helpers are made, not born IMO. Some might be more naturally inclined and maybe with many years experience and seeing lots of wash outs you become a bit more skeptical and jaded, I don't know, but I fully believe that helpers can be brought to that level you speak of - it just takes good old blood sweat and tears, persistence, and the desire to always improve.

I'm opening this up for discussion, not to argue with you.


----------



## Vandal

I wrote:


> It threatens/challenges the dogs and the people who have it, if they are mindful to reinforce the dog, will bring much more out of your dog than someone who doesn't.


Then you turned it into this:


> but to say you are either born with a stick in one hand a sleeve in the other and the innate ability to pull some jedi mind tricks on dogs OR you will never be able to be a quality helper - well that sounds like a lot of generalizing to me.


There are certain personalities that simply can't do it. Sorry you find that offensive and I am not alone in that thinking, nor jaded...simply realistic.


----------



## Liesje

I think it is true and not offensive. My husband tried helperwork for a while. At first glance, he looked good for it. He's a big guy so he has a lot of physical presence, but also athletic and fit. He got the motions as far as presenting a sleeve, how to move on the escape, etc, but we both know he'll never have "it" as far as the overall presence that challenges the dog and pushes the right buttons. Despite his size, strength, and correct technique he's really kind of weak in front of a dog. That sounds bad but I can't think of a better word (and I think he'd agree). If he really kept at it he could probably do trial helper work but never training helper work.


----------



## GatorDog

hunterisgreat said:


> Don't be sexist. Women can work dogs just as effectively as men


It's not sexist at all to say I disagree. And your definition of effective may be different than mine. Like Anne said, just because someone can go through the motions doesn't mean that they have the power and presence that should be put to the dog. I wouldn't qualify anyone, man or woman, who couldn't put the right pressure on the dog. Wearing the sleeve doesn't make you a powerful helper.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

GatorDog said:


> It's not sexist at all to say I disagree. And your definition of effective may be different than mine. Like Anne said, just because someone can go through the motions doesn't mean that they have the power and presence that should be put to the dog. I wouldn't qualify anyone, man or woman, who couldn't put the right pressure on the dog. Wearing the sleeve doesn't make you a powerful helper.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'll take your advice on helper work and apply it best I can


----------



## martemchik

Stig....the more you can see it, and with the guidance of proper helpers and others around you, the more you'll learn. It's really all about watching dogs, seeing things, asking questions, listening to comments.

As you've noticed, anything that's posted, can be countered with more information. People add information to counter what's already been written. There's no explaining every behavior that can be observed and then stating what it means.

If you think obedience and tracking are addicting...protection work will definitely hook you. And it really doesn't matter what kind of dog you have, don't make excuses, don't read crap on this forum and think that your dog is any less capable than the next, this is all about learning more about your dog and the sport.


----------



## lhczth

I have been lucky to work with a large number of helpers over the years. Some tried very hard to go through the motions and became decent training helpers. Some had talent that never really went beyond good safe trial work. Some were best for doing only some basic stuff. Then there were those that were born with an innate talent that luckily ended up being channeled into SchH. And, yes, it is an innate talent just like the best in any sport or field of work. It isn't just a physical thing (though they do need to be athletic), but mental. The dogs see it and the handler can see the difference in their dogs. 

GatorDog, one of the best helpers I have ever trained with is a woman. Wish I had the ability to train with her more and not just pick her brain when I need help.


----------



## Chris Wild

martemchik said:


> Defensive dogs tend to have a better bark, better guarding, where as the prey dogs are going to look flashier, go all out for a sleeve. Defensive dogs tend to have calmer bites...the bite releases all that frustration and stress that the helper is presenting in order to get the dog defensive, where as a more prey driven dog keeps nibbling the sleeve, shaking it, pretty much thinking the sleeve is a small prey animal that it must kill. Again, all these things are fixable by balancing the drive through training.


No. This is wrong. Yes, defensive dogs tend to have better barking. They do not however tend to have better biting. The "full, hard, calm" grip desired comes primarily from prey. Weak grips, frontal bites, nibbling, shifting, chewing, "typewritter" bites show a lack of commitment that most often is due to the dog still being in defense in the bite and not transitioning to prey. Prey bites are very full and very hard. There may be some shaking, but there is no loosening the grip and nibbling when the dog bites in prey. Not while the prey is still active (sleeve is on the helper) anyway. This is why the best dogs have both defense/aggression and prey and a balance of the two as it makes for good barking and good biting.

The "bite releases all that frustration" only happens when the dog properly transitions to prey for the bite. This is actually the foundation of when prey work was introduced into protection, to provide that release for dogs who were high in defense. But they must switch drives for it to work. A dog who is still in true defense when the bite comes is not going to bite well.


----------



## martemchik

Chris Wild said:


> No. This is wrong. Yes, defensive dogs tend to have better barking. They do not however tend to have better biting. The "full, hard, calm" grip desired comes primarily from prey. Weak grips, frontal bites, nibbling, shifting, chewing, "typewritter" bites show a lack of commitment that most often is due to the dog still being in defense in the bite and not transitioning to prey. Prey bites are very full and very hard. There may be some shaking, but there is no loosening the grip and nibbling when the dog bites in prey. Not while the prey is still active (sleeve is on the helper) anyway. This is why the best dogs have both defense/aggression and prey and a balance of the two as it makes for good barking and good biting.
> 
> The "bite releases all that frustration" only happens when the dog properly transitions to prey for the bite. This is actually the foundation of when prey work was introduced into protection, to provide that release for dogs who were high in defense. But they must switch drives for it to work. A dog who is still in true defense when the bite comes is not going to bite well.


See...this is what happens. You get people talking in full extremes instead of a dog that a bit more prey or a bit more defensive even though the dogs have both. I've yet to meet a dog that's ALL prey or ALL defense so therefore my post is correct. If someone is working a dog all in defense and the dog is that defensive...I'd question their motives as to why they keep going with that. If you truly can't introduce prey into the equation because the dog just doesn't care, doesn't sound like a dog that's safe to train in bite work.

Feel free to tear apart more of my posts.


----------



## bill

Balance!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack

it's not about how the dog is worked , it is how the dog is on balance by its genetics .

some dogs are genetically equipped to perform in the prey mode , don't have active aggression . Others are genetically equipped or psychologically equipped and work out of defence .

The dog's then are not balanced.

Sport dogs are shifting to have more of the prey .

what was wrong with your statement was that you said the defence dog had better barking, and better biting


----------



## bill

Dead on! Carmen.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Chris Wild

martemchik said:


> See...this is what happens. You get people talking in full extremes instead of a dog that a bit more prey or a bit more defensive even though the dogs have both. I've yet to meet a dog that's ALL prey or ALL defense so therefore my post is correct. If someone is working a dog all in defense and the dog is that defensive...I'd question their motives as to why they keep going with that. If you truly can't introduce prey into the equation because the dog just doesn't care, doesn't sound like a dog that's safe to train in bite work.
> 
> Feel free to tear apart more of my posts.


I will if they are spreading incorrect information. So goes the internet. 

You were not "speaking in extremes". You said that defensive dogs have good barking and that they also have good biting because the bite is stress release. The later part, to say that a defensive dog has better biting, is simply not correct. Good biting comes from prey. If the defensive dog is adequately switched to prey drive for the bite, which is a function of the dog's genetic drives (he must have prey), his training and the helperwork, then the bite will be good because he is now in PREY. But it will be no different than that of a prey dog because at the time of the bite they will be in the same drive. 

There are many dogs who are all prey and have little to no defense. My Heidi is one. Somehow the genetics for aggression that her mother and relatives have sort of skipped her and there is nothing but prey there. Thus her barking isn't the best, but she sure can bite. There are many such dogs out there. These would be the "sporty" dogs that the thread is about for the most part. 

There are also dogs that are pure defense. I've seen many of those as well. Some have enough prey to channel into good barking, but with many defense is very strongly their default drive and it takes lots of effort with constant training and management to maximize the prey and bring it out. And with the truly defensive dog that may not always hold up when the dog leaves it's familiar field and helper, gets harder than normal stick hits or more pressure in the drive, etc.... This is why sometimes these dogs are trained quite differently, taught that on the sleeve is the only safe zone. But of course that is not the same as the bite releasing stress or utilizing a transition to prey as a stress reliever. 

Whether either extreme is correct, or should be trained, is something many people will debate. But it doesn't change that they exist and many people do train them. 

You haven't been in this very long but give it time and you'll see some of both types of dogs I'm sure. The fact that you haven't seen them yet does not make the part of your post that said good biting comes from defense correct.


----------



## martemchik

So balance...

All your dogs have 50% prey and 50% defense? You can measure this? I'm sure you can right...at 8 weeks old too?

Most dogs, have both and are pretty close to 50/50. They'll lean one way or another way depending on what is necessary and what is presented to them.

So if you want to call a dog that's 60% defense and 40% prey unbalanced and a "defensive" dog, that's your prerogative. I think that's a pretty balanced dog that will hopefully switch to prey when necessary based on training and the helper's presentation.

I train with a group where a lot of littermates are in training from a couple different litters. They're all very genetically balanced, but its clear when you watch them work that depending on the handler and the dog's upbringing that a certain drive is more prevalent. I know, shocking, people have an affect on what the dog does, and its not all that piece of paper they have stored away in a drawer somewhere!


----------



## martemchik

I own both types of dogs...but thanks for bringing it up that I haven't been in it that long...

But I guess those that used to work dogs 20 years ago and haven't worked one in the past decade still carry more weight....


----------



## Chris Wild

carmspack said:


> Sport dogs are shifting to have more of the prey .


This is my definition of the term "sporty" as well. I do not consider it one to apply to obedience and tracking, but solely to how the dog views protection. To me, the "sporty" dog in protection is the one who works in prey with little to no other drives involved. Protection is essentially a big, rough game of tug-o-war for a toy and the helper is just an opponent in that game. There is no true threat, no aggression (either active/fight or reactive/defense) being used. 

Having high prey drive doesn't mean a dog is "sporty" and not "real". Having only prey drive and lacking aggression does. It depends on what other drives the dog has and their balance, not just how high the prey is. Dogs who are high in prey can be "real" if they also have those other drives and there is balance in the dog and in training. So one can have a very flashy dog in obedience where it's high prey is used in training, who is also very serious in the bitework.


----------



## Steve Strom

Lol. Hey Martemchik, you don't seem to enjoy this. 78.3 % defensive??


----------



## Chris Wild

martemchik said:


> So balance...
> 
> All your dogs have 50% prey and 50% defense? You can measure this? I'm sure you can right...at 8 weeks old too?


And I said that where? Most of my dogs are fairly balanced, yes. I breed and select for that. However there is the occasional outlyer, such as Heidi, who is not and falls more to one end of the spectrum. And yes, between knowing the pedigree, knowing the relatives and parents and knowing how to evaluate puppy behavior a breeder can get a pretty good idea with an 8wo pup where it will generally fall on the spectrum of prey dog, aggression dog, or balanced dog.



martemchik said:


> Most dogs, have both and are pretty close to 50/50. They'll lean one way or another way depending on what is necessary and what is presented to them.
> 
> So if you want to call a dog that's 60% defense and 40% prey unbalanced and a "defensive" dog, that's your prerogative. I think that's a pretty balanced dog that will hopefully switch to prey when necessary based on training and the helper's presentation.


Most dogs don't have that close to 50/50 balance. Maybe in your group they do. Considering most SchH trainers are going to select for that ideal and may not even agree to work with a dog who is on one extreme or another looking within a training group is looking at a pre-selected sample and is not representative of dogs as a whole.

And I would not say a 60/40 dog is unbalanced. That is well within the balanced range and an easy dog to work. 

But whether you want to believe it or not there are dogs that are more 80/10, 90/10 or 100/0 out there.


----------



## carmspack

If I had a dog that was not balanced , I would definitely lean towards the prey based dog . There is still security in that for the dog .
People that worked dogs 20 years ago experienced a different type of dog and a different type of agitation. 
You keep harping away at experience as if it is a bad thing to have . You don't loose the knowledge.


----------



## martemchik

Chris Wild said:


> There are many dogs who are all prey and have little to no defense. My Heidi is one. Somehow the genetics for aggression that her mother and relatives have sort of skipped her and there is nothing but prey there. Thus her barking isn't the best, but she sure can bite. There are many such dogs out there. These would be the "sporty" dogs that the thread is about for the most part.
> 
> There are also dogs that are pure defense. I've seen many of those as well. Some have enough prey to channel into good barking, but with many defense is very strongly their default drive and it takes lots of effort with constant training and management to maximize the prey and bring it out. And with the truly defensive dog that may not always hold up when the dog leaves it's familiar field and helper, gets harder than normal stick hits or more pressure in the drive, etc.... This is why sometimes these dogs are trained quite differently, taught that on the sleeve is the only safe zone. But of course that is not the same as the bite releasing stress or utilizing a transition to prey as a stress reliever.


I agree with you...but the truly extreme 100% this or 100% that dogs are so far and between. When people call a dog sporty, its usually because the defense has been suppressed or just not brought out due to the handler wanting to do sport rather than "real" work. Like you said, there are just certain things that IPO tests, that if you were going to be a world level competitor, or even a national level competitor, your dog will naturally need those drives and you would not want a 100% prey dog.


----------



## Liesje

IMO it's not just about balance but many dogs will work one way or the other by default. Like they will come out all amped up in prey or come out overly defensive even though many times they ARE dogs very capable of working both and showing balance. It's not just about the dog's potential but which way that dog falls naturally and then how the helper is going to work that dog to bring him back or maintain the desired balance. I've got a dog that I would say falls more on the side of defense and that is naturally what he will bring, but when worked the right way you can get this dog to lock up in prey, lol. I think most dogs in this sport are really decent dogs. Maybe not all national level dogs but have the potential to be worked and show decent results with good work. That is again why I'm usually reluctant to throw around labels like "oh that's a *sport* dog...." because I think a lot of the sportier dogs can still show some real nice power and aggression when worked that way. No dog is perfect but I guess in my experience most people I've observed and trained with at the club level had decent dogs and we tried to spend our time building each other up and working those dogs to bring power in their work and success, not nitpicking how they train and whether their dog is for "real" or for "sport".


----------



## carmspack

Chris Wild said:


> And I said that where? Most of my dogs are fairly balanced, yes. I breed and select for that. However there is the occasional outlyer, such as Heidi, who is not and falls more to one end of the spectrum. And yes, between knowing the pedigree, knowing the relatives and parents and knowing how to evaluate puppy behavior a breeder can get a pretty good idea with an 8wo pup where it will generally fall on the spectrum of prey dog, aggression dog, or balanced dog.
> 
> 
> 
> Most dogs don't have that close to 50/50 balance. And I would not say a 60/40 dog is unbalanced. That is well within the balanced range and an easy dog to work.
> 
> But whether you want to believe it or not there are dogs that are more 80/10, 90/10 or 100/0 out there.




agree with Chris - 

Remember this exchange martemchik 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *martemchik*  
_You really believe that at 8 weeks old, a breeder can tell if a dog has true aggression or just over the top prey drive? Hmmm...

Or a person that claims they can see these things without ever taking a dog out to trial or train where some sort of pressure is put on the dog (even if it is the decreased pressure of today's IPO trial)?

Meh...to me, I think a proper dog can easily be taken in either direction. Either its trained by someone focusing on Schutzhund and has the flash, or it's actually working in a K9 or military application where the true aggression does get used.

I wish we could have an actual K9 officer tell us how many dogs his/her dog has actually bit/taken down, and how many of those people have actually fought back, and how important that aspect is. Like baliff said...how many of you would fight a "sporty" dog anyways?

Malanois are probably the most "sporty" dog...and the military and police don't have any issue using them._



why not ? Breeding is a process , a deliberate selection for traits . The pedigree will have reason to expect a trait , or not . The sire , the dam, their littermates and the progeny of the littermates and previous breedings of the sire and dam will give a good clue.
The pups' behaviour within the litter will reveal what they are. The litter will have grades of that character , which the genetics determine.
You can see pups that have priority rights . They tend not to disappoint.
He'll be the guy with the beer foam moustache , not the milk moustache. You can tell.

There is a difference. The decoy can feel it . The judge can see it . Sometimes at end of performance on trial day when points are announced the judge will make special comments , like, "this is more than a sport dog" . 
__________________
Carmen


EXPERIENCE , over time , and generally a multi-generation long range goal breeding program which provides a control or base from which to make comparisons and draw conclusions.
I have sat on entire litters to raise them up to an age where all could be evaluated , then followed their careers as they matured. By raising the litter I reduced the variables as much as possible by providing similar exposure , similar diet and exercise and "games" , training technique, and environment .


----------



## holland

Liesje said:


> IMO it's not just about balance but many dogs will work one way or the other by default. Like they will come out all amped up in prey or come out overly defensive even though many times they ARE dogs very capable of working both and showing balance. It's not just about the dog's potential but which way that dog falls naturally and then how the helper is going to work that dog to bring him back or maintain the desired balance. I've got a dog that I would say falls more on the side of defense and that is naturally what he will bring, but when worked the right way you can get this dog to lock up in prey, lol. I think most dogs in this sport are really decent dogs. Maybe not all national level dogs but have the potential to be worked and show decent results with good work. That is again why I'm usually reluctant to throw around labels like "oh that's a *sport* dog...." because I think a lot of the sportier dogs can still show some real nice power and aggression when worked that way. No dog is perfect but I guess in my experience most people I've observed and trained with at the club level had decent dogs and we tried to spend our time building each other up and working those dogs to bring power in their work and success, not nitpicking how they train and whether their dog is for "real" or for "sport".


I always preferred training at places were the focus was just on training the dog-standing around and ripping apart dogs and breeders just becomes old very quickly...


----------



## martemchik

Good for you, I love marketing.

Back to the discussion...

I'll put this in a way that you’ll be more receptive of since I’ll include a compliment within it, that way you won’t just dismiss everything in the post.

You have a litter, two people want a dog from it. One wants to go to the worlds, the other one wants the dog as a K9. Both want the dog at 8 weeks. You have claimed that you can tell who the more “real” dog is at 8 weeks…sure. Anyways, you give a pup to each person. Three years later, both dogs have succeeded in what the handler set out to do. One is a K9, one is a world champion. But…someone watches the dogs and sees that its actually the world champion IPO dog that has a bit more defense, and is a bit more “real.” Well…does it matter? Not one bit. Both dogs are successful in what they do.

This theoretical idea that a dog has to perfectly fit X,Y,Z to be W…makes zero sense. A dog can’t be perfect, and you can’t tell what that dog will develop into when its 8 weeks old, sorry, you won’t convince me that you can pick between the “better” dog for sport or real work. Pet and sport…probably. But not the first one that early on.

Guess I’ve seen one too many breeders or people on this forum have a reputation, make claims about a dog (because they know better from experience) and then see that dog fail at whatever it is the breeder or person claimed the dog would do…then of course come all the excuses of why it failed (none of which have anything to do with the dog).


----------



## carmspack

useless antagonism 

get out there and do something , get the feedback, store the knowledge , make adjustments as needed 

get experience


----------



## martemchik

Get to a certain point, stop working dogs, go online, start telling people that do work dogs that they don't know anything.


----------



## lhczth

martemchik, who in the world are you addressing? You are getting very defensive just because people are not agreeing with you. People who have worked dogs for 20 or more years (and to be working dogs for that long means they are still working dogs) may have some different opinions based on their experiences. They are just voicing their opinions the same way you are, though in a much less confrontation manner.


----------



## bill

I believe a good working dog needs as close as possible balance' too much prey you get the dog that attacked the little boy! The cat saved. Too much defense' you can get a fear biter! J.m.o. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Vandal

I'd give my right arm to talk to more of the old trainers/breeders who no longer train anymore. I simply do not understand this mentality. Seems based in insecurity.

I am not aware of one person who has not done something with dogs in the last decade speaking here and even if there is, WHY does that matter so much to you if the information is correct? 

Maybe you are not experienced enough to determine what is correct, so you attack the messanger out of ignorance. Totally baffled at your nasty attitude and attacks.


----------



## martemchik

Lisa...I love how calling someone out for not having as much experience isn't confrontational...but what I did is...

Here comes the good ol' boy's club (even though most are women) defending each other...

Serious question: When will I have enough experience, that I can stop training/trialing dogs (which is told to every new person that wants to breed on this forum) and still have the reputation many people on here have? Is there a certain amount of time I should be shooting for when I can start judging dogs off of papers and youtube videos?


----------



## björn

Sporty GSD or sporty malinois is for me those dogs with much prey and quick in their reactions adapted more to sportrules, but who also lack the aggresion and hardness and general stronger character and hence not so ideal outside sport. This shouldn´t be confused with dogs who also are quick and intense/flashy but have stronger drives and character in general and not only their strong preydrive, in other words dogs who also cold do well in sport because of the traits they have. Dogs who are neither sporty or anything special in general is just average/normal dogs who may not be what people refer as to sporty but are probably more suited for sport anyway because they isn´t quite strong enough for what is needed as a policedog for example.

The sporty and more average dog I guess is what is negative if we talking breeding and don´t want GSD that are neither to sporty or to average. On the other hand, is the ideal GSD like a better malinois, intense and reactive, have aggresion not too soft and hopefully nerves and trainer good enough to deal with such a type of dog? Or should we focus on strong nerves, courageous and balanced in his drives but not quite that reactive/quick acting dog that is a plus for really high points in sport, does it really add anything of use to have a malinois in GSD clothing if not very high points in sport is what is valued most?


----------



## Liesje

It's not the big conspiracy you think it is. I've met or trained with lots of people here, some of the other mods even, but I don't own dogs from their breedings and don't plan to. It's nothing personal. Generally people who enjoy doing Schutzhund and are committed to it tend to enjoy each other's company even if we don't 100% agree on everything. The sport is dying so there's no point making enemies and pissing people off when there are already so few available to help each other. Some of the people I enjoy training with the most are people who seek out dogs you couldn't pay me to own, but no one gets all defensive about it. We're friends and we know what we each like or don't like in our dogs and respect that.

Also just in general, in my experience with my show line dog, some of the best work done with him and the best help I've gotten has been from the "good old boys club" type people who have been training in Schutzhund for longer than I've been alive. They understand dogs, period, and are not the ones sitting around online calling some dogs "sport dogs" or accusing people of training dogs that aren't "real". They look at the dog in front of them, work that dog, and get it done. If you showed up to train your dog, I guarantee people like Chris, Lisa, Anne, etc would be willing to look at your dog and help out.


----------



## lhczth

björn, agree. I do not want a Mali in GSD clothing.


----------



## lhczth

Lies, :thumbup:


----------



## robk

A dog is not a machine, no matter what its pedigree looks like. There are nuances of prey, defence, fight, flight, what ever in every single dog. Some dogs have great nerve in regards to some things then have an irrational fear of something else. You cannot put them in a box. My dogs are completely different from each other in pedigree and in temperament but they both have the same bundle of drives that all dogs have. My male has both higher prey drive and higher defense drive than my female. She is more balanced over all but I trust the nerves of my male more even though my female is less reactive. Each dog is different is subtle ways. I am not a decoy but I can appreciate the skill of a good decoy at reading and working each dog in the way that best taps into what the dog has to offer. I just don't believe that you can know enough about a dog to call it sporty or real from just a surface level observation.


----------



## robk

Liesje said:


> It's not the big conspiracy you think it is. I've met or trained with lots of people here, some of the other mods even, but I don't own dogs from their breedings and don't plan to. It's nothing personal. Generally people who enjoy doing Schutzhund and are committed to it tend to enjoy each other's company even if we don't 100% agree on everything. The sport is dying so there's no point making enemies and pissing people off when there are already so few available to help each other. Some of the people I enjoy training with the most are people who seek out dogs you couldn't pay me to own, but no one gets all defensive about it. We're friends and we know what we each like or don't like in our dogs and respect that.
> 
> Also just in general, in my experience with my show line dog, some of the best work done with him and the best help I've gotten has been from the "good old boys club" type people who have been training in Schutzhund for longer than I've been alive. *They understand dogs, period, and are not the ones sitting around online calling some dogs "sport dogs" or accusing people of training dogs that aren't "real". They look at the dog in front of them, work that dog, and get it done.* If you showed up to train your dog, I guarantee people like Chris, Lisa, Anne, etc would be willing to look at your dog and help out.


Love this. very well said.


----------



## hunterisgreat

robk said:


> Love this. very well said.


I agree... and I don't have anything against "sport dogs" or "real dogs" and in fact have both.

While I don't think I accused anyone of "training not real dogs", and I very much don't think there is an issue in describing dogs in terms of sport dogs or real dogs, I also don't have a problem training with any dog regardless of its likelihood of success... so long as the handler is as committed, and the dog isn't just plain miserable.


----------



## Vandal

> Each dog is different is subtle ways. I am not a decoy but I can appreciate the skill of a good decoy at reading and working each dog in the way that best taps into what the dog has to offer. *I just don't believe that you can know enough about a dog to call it sporty or real from just a surface level observation*


 
I agree ....over the years I have seen very good dogs worked way too much in defense. That was very common years ago. It was sad really, watching those dogs struggle to control themselves because they were pushed so far into that side of things. 
Then the work with the prey instinct was introduced and mostly, I found myself helping people work their defensive dogs using that method. Over the years, things have shifted, where dogs who really would work much better with some "defense work", ( I just don't like that term but I will use it anyway), are only played with, resulting in a dog who looks weak, when he isn't. 

I have seen a few dogs lately and at first glance I think..." oh my, not a good dog". Only to work that dog in a way to challenge him more, (and break through all the boring work that has basically paved over his primary drive), and suddenly, it's a different dog entirely.

The training over the last decade has done a good job of hiding who the dogs really are. Not only can training hide the not so desirable things, but many times, it hides what is good in the dog as well.
I think more people are starting to realize this and maybe things will shift more to the center.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> I agree ....over the years I have seen very good dogs worked way too much in defense. That was very common years ago. It was sad really, watching those dogs struggle to control themselves because they were pushed so far into that side of things.
> Then the work with the prey instinct was introduced and mostly, I found myself helping people work their defensive dogs using that method. Over the years, things have shifted, where dogs who really would work much better with some "defense work", ( I just don't like that term but I will use it anyway), are only played with, resulting in a dog who looks weak, when he isn't.
> 
> I have seen a few dogs lately and at first glance I think..." oh my, not a good dog". Only to work that dog in a way to challenge him more, (and break through all the boring work that has basically paved over his primary drive), and suddenly, it's a different dog entirely.
> 
> The training over the last decade has done a good job of hiding who the dogs really are. Not only can training hide the not so desirable things, but many times, it hides what is good in the dog as well.
> I think more people are starting to realize this and maybe things will shift more to the center.


I agree. I use the word "aggression" rather than defense when describing the type of dog that isn't really into the prey work but shines when worked in such a way that the dog's desire to punish & force the helper into submission/avoidance is the dog's reward vice the prey. I use "defense" to describe true "defense" which is an area I very very rarely and cautiously dabble in, and only for specific purposes.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Interesting take on what many would coin as a sport dog from someone that has a proven track record of producing the "real" deal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u3geKKwXaE&feature=youtu.be

I wish he still bred GSDs..


----------



## bill

Channeling the defense to prey! When the wolf attacks the prey screams' fights' and trys to get away.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## björn

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Interesting take on what many would coin as a sport dog from someone that has a proven track record of producing the "real" deal.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u3geKKwXaE&feature=youtu.be
> 
> I wish he still bred GSDs..


Sporty in the sense much prey and the lively alert disposition, which is just one thing of a "sporty" dog, not necesarily a sportdog only. But still, is this the ideal we want for a GSD, no aggresion is needed he says, many working in police and also breeds will have a different opinion, but maybe his take on aggresion is a dog that is unsocial and dangerous to be around, not a dog that besides prey also have a serious side when confronted. I´m not so sure a dog is anticipating and given a bite this way(probably not the first time in bitework) is a proof of a dog that should be effective in the much more unpredictable real life. Anyway, no aggresion and a very lively dog, snapping at the leash and in general very active I don´t think adds anything for a dog that are supposed to also be able to handle stress and and keep a clear head in all from tracking to handle situations that involves much distractions and chaos, like a riot or similar. I rember a big riot where many mals acted like this, biting on the leash and flipped out in general, this is a difference between sport and real life I suppose.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

björn said:


> Sporty in the sense much prey and the lively alert disposition, which is just one thing of a "sporty" dog, not necesarily a sportdog only. But still, is this the ideal we want for a GSD, no aggresion is needed he says, many working in police and also breeds will have a different opinion, but maybe his take on aggresion is a dog that is unsocial and dangerous to be around, not a dog that besides prey also have a serious side when confronted. I´m not so sure a dog is anticipating and given a bite this way(probably not the first time in bitework) is a proof of a dog that should be effective in the much more unpredictable real life. Anyway, no aggresion and a very lively dog, snapping at the leash and in general very active I don´t think adds anything for a dog that are supposed to also be able to handle stress and and keep a clear head in all from tracking to handle situations that involves much distractions and chaos, like a riot or similar.


I think he knows plenty about social aggression or "real" aggression and what it looks like. I also think he knows more then you me or anyone else on here about "real life". .


----------



## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I think he knows plenty about social aggression or "real" aggression and what it looks like. I also think he knows more then you me or anyone else on here about "real life". .


I believe and interpreted what he was saying in that video is if you have enough prey drive, the dog need not work in aggression... i.e. a mal or a dutchie. I don't think GSDs should be bred to be more like mal's or dutchies. I think a working GSD *should* work in aggression. The trouble with working in prey is, pain lowers prey drive and raises aggression/defense. Prey drive is also exhaustible in the same way food drive or sex drive is. Defensive drive is not exhaustible, as the desire to defend oneself does not diminish over the course of a fight. The reason "street" dogs typically/traditionally work in aggression is what can happen if the dog is severely or mortally wounded in an altercation... the prey dog may find his prey lowered to the point of disengagement, the aggressive dog will not. (though a lower drive or less strong nerved dog may go into avoidance/submission with enough pressure). Mal's and dutchies often have enough prey drive to carry them through this with a blind eye to the pain, and typically the dogs are not in prolonged altercation by themselves anyway. Most GSDs I don't think have this level of prey drive.


----------



## bill

How do you intice prey drive? You run away! How do you in twice defensive drive? You act suspicious!

When doing protection' and you are coming at a strong dog in protection in training' he will be ready to fight.
To put in prey you become afraid and run away' he goes from defensive to prey' no stress he is in charge time too catch you full hard bite! On a dog more prey you read the dog ' first sign of backward movement run. 
Hard to explain never been good writing. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

See Im not seeing over the top FR mal type prey drive. Dog isnt hectic or acting like a loon. Just a green dog that will bite full and hard when told. A little training and the dog would probably settle nicely. 

Reason I use his vids as examples are because he doesnt keep or use the typical mal with nerve issues that are covered by prey drive. He has dogs with plenty of aggression (see his old stud Arco Kikkert and progeny) and stable nerves. 
I believe he has said he likes females like this for his more serious studs. 

The point being the dog while clearly not defensive or socially aggressive is solid, clearly is not acting out of aggression yet still functions effectively.

I think dogs that are labelled as socially aggressive are often nervy and the owner/breeder is in Disnep land. I personally dont like a dog thats primary drive is defense. I think most dogs like that will get run and or have their grip go to $h&t if enough pressure is applied.

If I could find a GSD like this I would buy her in a heart beat.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> See Im not seeing over the top FR mal type prey drive. Dog isnt hectic or acting like a loon. Just a green dog that will bite full and hard when told. A little training and the dog would probably settle nicely.
> *Being hectic or a leaking idiot is frequently seen in "over the top" prey drive dogs, but it is not in and of itself a product of that drive. A dog (preferable dog) is one who has excellent prey without the hectic idiot part*
> 
> Reason I use his vids as examples are because he doesnt keep or use the typical mal with nerve issues that are covered by prey drive. He has dogs with plenty of aggression (see his old stud Arco Kikkert and progeny) and stable nerves.
> *No one *should* want a mal, or any dog, who's thin nerves are masked by high prey drive. I just as much should not want a high defense/aggressive dog who's defense masks his weak character. Its often the high drive that makes folks unable to see the quality of the attributes they mask*
> I believe he has said he likes females like this for his more serious studs.
> *I wonder why. I'm sure theres a reason*
> The point being the dog while clearly not defensive or socially aggressive is solid, clearly is not acting out of aggression yet still functions effectively.
> 
> I think dogs that are labelled as socially aggressive are often nervy and the owner/breeder is in Disnep land. I personally dont like a dog thats primary drive is defense. I think most dogs like that will get run and or have their grip go to $h&t if enough pressure is applied.
> *I agree. Dogs who default to *aggression*, not defense, don't have the issues you describe, and strong dogs who work in aggression are likely less able to be ran than any other type of dog in my opinion.*
> If I could find a GSD like this I would buy her in a heart beat.
> *Katya is a GSD, who is not defensive, functions effectively, has extreme prey drive, and I could hand her leash to you for you to send her to bite me (and she would bite me as hard and fast as she would anyone else)... not for sale though ;-)*


See above


----------



## Vandal

If I were to train a dog for police, I would prefer to see one that would escalate the fight with the bad guy. The female in the video bites, and hangs on..yes...but he picks her up and yells and flanks and slams her into the wall and all she offers is the same bite. 
She doesn't counter or hit back and he has little trouble lifting, moving her and basically doing whatever he wants with minimal equipment on, because she doesn't try to resist or dominate him. She merely endures it. 

We see dogs in SchH like this as well. I am not saying she is a bad dog just think dogs who can take control of the fight, would fair better in an altercation.


----------



## bill

We like the same kind of dog Anne! I train mine to shake and back command' this is were the fight drive kicks in' I nurture it with prey till the dog likes to fight no pressure' just likes to fight' a strong confident dog' that knows what is expected. No different than a trained fighter' he wasn't mad at you he tried to knock you out because that is his job and he likes to fight' if trained right ' and you have the right dog' sport' police' p.p.d. j.m
O. bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## David Taggart

Sport doesn't presuppose anything outside it. The work of the decoy is a real art, but he/she is not a toreador, and his combat with the dog is only called a "fight", but, in fact, Shutzhund protection is a team work. The handler, the dog, the decoy and the trainer/instructor are parts of one solid unit, and, if the actions of one play in discord with other team members - the music wouldn't sound right. The most judged member of the team is, of course, the dog. That is the whole point, that his prey drive shouldn't leave him. You can judge your dog by the way he chases the ball. Some dogs would continue to chase the ball up to exhaustion, even in an excessive heat, even with a wounded paw. Some of them simply do a good work. The first ones do not need any other *stimulus* other than the reward, but the latter ones do. And here comes a hard stick. A harder blow has never meant to replicate real life in Schutzhund sport, it was designed as a switch from playful to serious, from biting-fiting-playing preying to real urge to win at any cost. Whether your dog needs a hard blow at all is a different question, nobody wants agressive dogs in Schutzhund, but need passionate dogs. The evaluation should not only consider whether the dog can keep his prey drive up to the same level of intensity as at the beginning of bite work with further reengagements, but also avoid unnecessary useless motions. And useless motions could be observed exactly in agressive dogs, because they are less controllable, instead of good timing and precision they clip on the sleeve and hang like a sack of potatoes for too long after outing was already cued, they bite at the parts they weren't asked to bite, they run when they were supposed to sit, many agressive dogs simply start to misbehave and are knocked out of competition. In fact, this switch from preying to defending with the use of a hard blow has knocked many good dogs out of sport, while the best bite work was always demonstrated by playful dogs who had a friendly relationship with the decoy they were trained.
If we are talking about a sports dog, why should we talk about impressive bite work only? Schutzhund has three stages, equally important. I find that tracking helps protection, and protection helps tracking. A balanced dog with a strong stamina, good physical fit and sound confidence in bite work normally is very persistant in tracking as well.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

hunterisgreat said:


> See above


We cant find much to disagree on.

I think the point of his video is what one of his untrained females is capable of no training just genetics. Im sure if he put a little work in he could teach pulling, thrashing whatever you want. I like how calm she was despite all the pressure he put on her. She was practically biting his actual arm not a sleeve.


Point being with stable nerves and the right drives a dog can still be very effective even without being "real".

If you look at what he has used for studs I think you will find a lot more of that "fight" behavior.

Also the offspring of said female seem to have some more pep on the bite if you want to look up the vids.


----------



## björn

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I think he knows plenty about social aggression or "real" aggression and what it looks like. I also think he knows more then you me or anyone else on here about "real life". .


The dogworld is however bigger than this forum Considering a dog could have both prey/fight and aggresion why satisfy with a dog who is less complete so to speak, even if this particular female may also have aggression that we can´t see in that video. I like this female, powerfull but without the overly lively disposition that seems popular today, how much more drive and "energy" level is really needed before it is more of a problem than an asset.


----------



## bill

I think she looks good Bjorn' me personally I encourage the fight on the sleeve that's just me 'looks like a good dog. I.m.o. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

björn said:


> The dogworld is however bigger than this forum Considering a dog could have both prey/fight and aggresion why satisfy with a dog who is less complete so to speak, even if this particular female may also have aggression that we can´t see in that video. I like this female, powerfull but without the overly lively disposition that seems popular today, how much more drive and "energy" level is really needed before it is more of a problem than an asset.
> 
> Hexa vom Scandinawian - YouTube


 
Personally I dont see to much fight. A nice female for sure but not seeing much fight.

I may be bias but as far as GSDs go I like this female

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb4SOj26NdY#t=171


----------



## David Taggart

Actually, it's very good. She is doing her job with ease, she is light, and the decoy could easily give her a swing. At the last phase of the run he waits for her exposing his front, so, I assume, she wasn't trained to approach from the angle yet.


----------



## bill

I like that female also blitzkrieg. She had good balance' good defence' notice how she moved forward to engage the man 'she didn't back up!
And when the sleeve was dropped she came off to engage the man.
me personally I would be petting her and touching her when she is engaged on the sleeve' encouraging the fight' letting her feel my presence' but that's just me. I like her a lot! Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Vandal

For me, I prefer the first female that Bjorn posted. Mostly because of the power she shows and her desire to dominate the helper without all the action and loading that the second helper is doing. She also gives the appearance of being very solid in the nerve dept. 
It would be easy to see the difference if the dogs were worked the same way but all that activity on the part of the helper, can actually help the dog. People think yelling and waving arms is really threatening, many times not as much as the more still and deliberate helper.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> For me, I prefer the first female that Bjorn posted. Mostly because of the power she shows and her desire to dominate the helper without all the action and loading that the second helper is doing. She also gives the appearance of being very solid in the nerve dept.
> It would be easy to see the difference if the dogs were worked the same way but all that activity on the part of the helper, can actually help the dog. People think yelling and waving arms is really threatening, many times not as much as the more still and deliberate helper.


I had a helper stand-in try and threaten my female once. She was looking everywhere trying to figure out who the threat was after my alert command lol. The frantic arms and yelling didn't convince her. She ended up directing at the person hiding behind a camera

People struggle to understand pressure can be applied without a peep, without a movement. Personally, I think about hurting the dog severely without any intended body movement on my part or facial expressions. I just try to "project malice in the dogs direction" if that makes sense


----------



## bill

Makes perfect sense ' you actor you. Lol bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

bill said:


> Makes perfect sense ' you actor you. Lol bill
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My bitch and me


----------



## carmspack

no to this comment that blitzkrieg provided "I think dogs that are labelled as socially aggressive are often nervy and the owner/breeder is in Disnep land. I personally dont like a dog thats primary drive is defense. I think most dogs like that will get run and or have their grip go to $h&t if enough pressure is applied."

social or active aggression isn't around much anymore as dogs have shifted to prey , which is what the thuringians brought. The wurtembergers , the herders , which include the Lierbergs provided this active aggression , social aggression. In action you would want to see the dog take charge of and defeat the man . Slow to come on , when on, meaningful serious , rise with power as the situation demands -- not run . (what Hunter said - *and strong dogs who work in aggression are likely less able to be ran than any other type of dog in my opinion.*")''

The female in the loganhouse tape is squealing , lick lipping , can't sit still for a second, is taking sucker punches (snapping) at the speaker .
the dog does the bite , play hitting . No big deal . Believe me that is not what a fight looks like .


Everyone please look carefully at the video . TWICE the young lady who has been thrown the leash does EXACTLY what the k9 officer accused of cruelty did . Frame 1:16 briefly to out the dog. 
Second time the lift starts at frame 5:06 , by 5:14 (or so) you can see the young lady go into a squat to use her upper thigh to lift the dog off the ground , (grunt) and by frame 5:26 the dog's head is almost level to the man's shoulder . As time goes by you can see change in dog's eyes and change in colour of tongue (blue grey).
Frame 5:58 dog looses muscle resistance and weight drops , which is covered by the lady tensing her own shoulders to keep the dog elevated , (dead weight) .

that tongue has gone blue !!!!!!

this is not a dog for PD service


----------



## bill

Beautiful shepherd' I love the black! My first 35 years ago' trained him to do everything I could think of perfect balance.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Nigel

Liesje said:


> It's not the big conspiracy you think it is. I've met or trained with lots of people here, some of the other mods even, but I don't own dogs from their breedings and don't plan to. It's nothing personal. Generally people who enjoy doing Schutzhund and are committed to it tend to enjoy each other's company even if we don't 100% agree on everything. *The sport is dying* so there's no point making enemies and pissing people off when there are already so few available to help each other. Some of the people I enjoy training with the most are people who seek out dogs you couldn't pay me to own, but no one gets all defensive about it. We're friends and we know what we each like or don't like in our dogs and respect that.


Probably a topic for another thread, but what do you see to make you think this? Its dead here, but I would guess that if someone who knew the sport well came to the area and enjoyed teaching a bunch of newbs, it would do well here.


----------



## Vandal

Next Hunter, try to get a response by just standing still and upright. Think the thoughts but don't do the rest. Then you'll be "the Jedi".


----------



## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> Next Hunter, try to get a response by just standing still and upright. Think the thoughts but don't do the rest. Then you'll be "the Jedi".


I can, but I screw with my own dogs much more than others' dogs lol. In that pic I was egging her on to get dirty on me lol


----------



## bill

Carmen I looked at the video" I can't see why they can't teach out' too much prey not enough balance? What is your or Anne's thoughts.
Also when they choked out the dog he was wearing a wide collar and she held him there"
She didn't keep jerking him up by the neck. I saw two video's on cops one dog was sent on a suspect' got kicked ran back to handler! The other dogs handler was fighting the bad guy on another episode' the dog grabbed the pants leg only no flesh' the bad guy took the cops gun tried to shoot him' and pistol whipped the dog. Think not enough balance. Thoughts everyone. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> no to this comment that blitzkrieg provided "I think dogs that are labelled as socially aggressive are often nervy and the owner/breeder is in Disnep land. I personally dont like a dog thats primary drive is defense. I think most dogs like that will get run and or have their grip go to $h&t if enough pressure is applied."
> 
> social or active aggression isn't around much anymore as dogs have shifted to prey , which is what the thuringians brought. The wurtembergers , the herders , which include the Lierbergs provided this active aggression , social aggression. In action you would want to see the dog take charge of and defeat the man . Slow to come on , when on, meaningful serious , rise with power as the situation demands -- not run . (what Hunter said - *and strong dogs who work in aggression are likely less able to be ran than any other type of dog in my opinion.*")''
> 
> The female in the loganhouse tape is squealing , lick lipping , can't sit still for a second, is taking sucker punches (snapping) at the speaker .
> the dog does the bite , play hitting . No big deal . Believe me that is not what a fight looks like .
> 
> 
> Everyone please look carefully at the video . TWICE the young lady who has been thrown the leash does EXACTLY what the k9 officer accused of cruelty did . Frame 1:16 briefly to out the dog.
> Second time the lift starts at frame 5:06 , by 5:14 (or so) you can see the young lady go into a squat to use her upper thigh to lift the dog off the ground , (grunt) and by frame 5:26 the dog's head is almost level to the man's shoulder . As time goes by you can see change in dog's eyes and change in colour of tongue (blue grey).
> Frame 5:58 dog looses muscle resistance and weight drops , which is covered by the lady tensing her own shoulders to keep the dog elevated , (dead weight) .
> 
> that tongue has gone blue !!!!!!
> 
> this is not a dog for PD service


LOL you should let Mike know he is doing it all wrong and breeding garbage. Let his customer base know too.... 

For those who dont know, look into Mike's background and the type of stuff he puts out. Figure out who the "expert" is.


----------



## carmspack

I don't know this "Mike" and never said he is doing it all wrong and breeding garbage . I don't know what he is doing nor what he is breeding .

My comments were made only about one animal which was presented in the video.

If the dog were off leash in that room would you be safe ?

I don't think this dog is "green" or untrained, just the opposite , the dog anticipates the bite , so to me seems to be pretty much patterned . Probably is familiar with being lifted and mashed into walls while still holding on. The lady handler, decoy and dog are pretty much doing a familiar "dance" . 

agree with Bjorn "
Sporty in the sense much prey and the lively alert disposition, which is just one thing of a "sporty" dog, not necesarily a sportdog only. But still, is this the ideal we want for a GSD, no aggresion is needed he says, many working in police and also breeds will have a different opinion, but maybe his take on aggresion is a dog that is unsocial and dangerous to be around, not a dog that besides prey also have a serious side when confronted. I´m not so sure a dog is anticipating and given a bite this way(probably not the first time in bitework) is a proof of a dog that should be effective in the much more unpredictable real life. Anyway, no aggresion and a very lively dog, snapping at the leash and in general very active I don´t think adds anything for a dog that are supposed to also be able to handle stress and and keep a clear head in all from tracking to handle situations that involves much distractions and chaos, like a riot or similar. I rember a big riot where many mals acted like this, biting on the leash and flipped out in general, this is a difference between sport and real life I suppose. "

I said what my observations were .

What did you see Blitzkrieg?


----------



## DutchKarin

While I have no experience to bring to this discussion, having a dutchie I have read tons, watched tons of videos etc. Mike Ritland, a guy who trains dogs for the military (either in his book Trident Warrior Dogs or in a video) said he combs kennels in the US and in Europe for dogs that "do not give up the fight" ever. He also pulls dogs from Logan Haus (FYI). He says that the only dogs he has found with that kind of drive are the Mals, Dutchies, and GSDs. But he also said it is 1 in a 1000 that meet his criteria to enter the training program. Somebody here said prey drive is limited in duration... does that mean he is looking mostly for defense drive???


----------



## robk

hunterisgreat said:


> My bitch and me


Hunter I don't think this look is affecting dogs the way you think!


----------



## lhczth

I, personally, look for active aggression and/or fight drive. Dogs that love the fight, are in it for the fight, to over power, control and dominate their opponent. These dogs can be used in real work and in sport. Just have to have people that know what to look for and wait for the dog to mature a bit.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> I don't know this "Mike" and never said he is doing it all wrong and breeding garbage . I don't know what he is doing nor what he is breeding .
> *Look into it it will put his vids and the quality of what he breeds and sells into perspective.*
> My comments were made only about one animal which was presented in the video.
> 
> If the dog were off leash in that room would you be safe ?
> 
> *Yes*
> 
> I don't think this dog is "green" or untrained, just the opposite , the dog anticipates the bite , so to me seems to be pretty much patterned . Probably is familiar with being lifted and mashed into walls while still holding on. The lady handler, decoy and dog are pretty much doing a familiar "dance" .
> 
> *There are pups out of that female doing practically the same thing at 6 months. The vids are on his youtube page. Its genetic, he doesnt train his females. His testing of both working prospects and breeding stock does not involve making the dog "used" to anything. Just ask him.*
> 
> agree with Bjorn "
> Sporty in the sense much prey and the lively alert disposition, which is just one thing of a "sporty" dog, not necesarily a sportdog only. But still, is this the ideal we want for a GSD, no aggresion is needed he says, many working in police and also breeds will have a different opinion, but maybe his take on aggresion is a dog that is unsocial and dangerous to be around, not a dog that besides prey also have a serious side when confronted. I´m not so sure a dog is anticipating and given a bite this way(probably not the first time in bitework) is a proof of a dog that should be effective in the much more unpredictable real life. Anyway, no aggresion and a very lively dog, snapping at the leash and in general very active I don´t think adds anything for a dog that are supposed to also be able to handle stress and and keep a clear head in all from tracking to handle situations that involves much distractions and chaos, like a riot or similar. I rember a big riot where many mals acted like this, biting on the leash and flipped out in general, this is a difference between sport and real life I suppose. "
> 
> *Look into his customer base then tell me about "real" life. He has more vids of his dogs including progeny of that female doing detection work then bitework. Id say he knows more about tracking and scentwork then most folks..*
> 
> I said what my observations were .
> 
> What did you see Blitzkrieg?


A solid dog with the genetic nerve and drive to do whatever you want her to do. 

The reason I like using Mike's vids are because of what he has done in the world of working dogs. He has a proven track record and its not in sport (look it up, ask around, he is easy to find). 

If Mike says the dog will work then it will work.

I like the type of dogs he keeps, breeds and sells. 
More impotantly so do other people who's opinion mean a heck of alot more then mine..lol. 

Its too bad he got out of GSDs, I believe it was because he was unable to find enough consistency in quality dogs capable of passing his tests. 

If he was interested in selling to the pet crowd Im sure he would still be into them.


----------



## bill

Exactly Lisa! That is my opinion also' hence aloof in the standard" you don't want your dog to meet someone climbing in your window like a best friend.
That's just what I like a balanced dog" can and will take it too the bad guy with the right training. Doesn't have to be 50-50 to have a balanced dog" you just don't want extremes one way or the other. J.m.o. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

DutchKarin said:


> While I have no experience to bring to this discussion, having a dutchie I have read tons, watched tons of videos etc. Mike Ritland, a guy who trains dogs for the military (either in his book Trident Warrior Dogs or in a video) said he combs kennels in the US and in Europe for dogs that "do not give up the fight" ever. He also pulls dogs from Logan Haus (FYI). He says that the only dogs he has found with that kind of drive are the Mals, Dutchies, and GSDs. But he also said it is 1 in a 1000 that meet his criteria to enter the training program. Somebody here said prey drive is limited in duration... does that mean he is looking mostly for defense drive???


 
He was featured on 60 minutes with Mike Ritland too, an interesing episode for sure. 
When a guy like Ritland buys from you..what else is there to say..

Prey drive is present when the stimulis for the drive is present. However, if the dog has solid nerve it should function out of drive fine. When the dog views the target human as a prey object then you dont need to worry about defense. If the human runs its prey, if the human challenges its still prey just one that requires fight drive to catch and beat.

I found Mike's comments on defense very interesting. In short he had little use for it as the majority of dogs that have it in any significant degree wont pass his tests. He liked social aggression but those dogs seem to be 1 in a million. 

He needs safe / social dogs that can be out in public and out in the real world. He posted at one point that anyone could walk into the kennel and take most of his dogs out no problem. 
Hard for a dog to work the border or be out on patrol if it wants to eat everyone.

I personally like a pushy dominant type of dog that brings that attitude onto the field, with some social aggression, but this was a discussion on more sporty dogs. I have seen one GSD around here that I think meets that standard..trouble is the owner isnt selling..lol.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQt2aI6vew0

Im curious what type of dog people would label this one as. Plenty more vids of him to put things into perspective.


----------



## bill

Running away kicks in prey drive hence the good strong bite" some call hunt drive when they want to eat. Defensive hence aggressive drive kicks in when the opposing wolf comes into their territory" they want too over power" dominant" and possibly kill. To much defense can become a junk yard dog' or a fearbiter' but a dog without extremes one way or the other can do anything with the right training! I have taken dogs when I was young with more aggressive drive made 100% stable
And when it is time to fight they take it to you!
I have taken dogs with less aggressive drive" built them up they always win" nurture the drive. Time to work" they were just as good as the natural more aggressive dog. Thought they were invincible. That's just how I was taught" and I respect everyone's opinion! Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## björn

Blitzkrieg, the same female was doing similar things with an IPO-sleeve and I suppose the same location, so she seems used to biting and developed in that area, so obviously she have had some training/experience in this.

The last dog you posted is a good sportdog which his points tells, other than that I think it´s hard to tell how well he would function as a policedog for example, or his nerves,hardness and general couarge based on his SCH-performance only. Not an overly "sporty" dog but not quite my type, this is only my opinion of course and I haven´t seen any of his offspring. By the way, why are many dogs silent in the guardingphases nowadays, what is the purpose if the dog has no problem to bark?


----------



## bill

As far as silent in the guarding Bjorn" I would guess without seeing the dog' to much prey not working defense. In training? To much prey drive? A hunter is silent!
I had to teach my hunt prey driven am bulldog to bark deadly silent.

Blitzkrieg on the last dog you posted" I would say he was told to guard or just kennel aggression' let him out he would be fine" I have seen dogs like that. J.m.o. Bill



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack

blitzkrieg this dog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u3g...ature=youtu.be is all prey . The narrator says she has no aggression. What you are seeing is a dog who may have capping problems . The prey under is under pressure and the need to release 
that pressure will have the dog initiate a reaction giving her permission to bite . She is trying to provoke the narrator by jumping and snapping at him , except he is a good and aware handler and prevents this from engagement with the dog. By the time he hands the leash over to his assistant the dog is keyed and ready to go . She scans the crowd , momentarily gives focus on the gentleman in the red coat . 
What would have happened if the dog were off lead ? A free for all , disperse the crowd .

There were a lot of PD's that were sued to the eyeballs , litigation , over wrongful bites. Innocent by standers , fellow officers , control issues . The dogs were so hyped in prey they targeted anything moving , anyone close by. 

Judgement lacking because prey is reactive . 
I am not saying the dog has nerve issues . I am saying that there is a bias to prey drive , potentially over over the top , contrary to your view "See Im not seeing over the top FR mal type prey drive. Dog isnt hectic or acting like a loon. "
Second half of your statement
"Just a green dog that will bite full and hard when told. A little training and the dog would probably settle nicely. "
to which I say again , this dog is not green in the prey-bite . I do believe that her bite would have been full from the outset , but the dog is patterned , familiar with this demonstration, can't wait for it to begin .

I wonder exactly what that "little training" would be that would settle her down?

I don't think it is a training issue. I think it is basic to the make up of the dog .

You keep saying if you find a GSD like this you would buy it in a heartbeat . But for a GSD that is not correct . Why not get yourself a breed where it may be more of the character profile?

GSD should not be malinois . Even there , the idea of the malinois is restricted to the cliché of over the top , prey . How they differ is the ability to respond instantaneously , a flame thrower . The GSD may take longer to ignite , but that allows for judgement and discernment and investing only as much , at one time , as needed . If the fire needs to build then it can do so . Endurance .

The latter dog, the GSD , shows to be a good sport dog . Agree with Bjorn. The video in the kennel ? That is a bit of back against the wall , kennel aggression . Don't even know why they would provide this ?


----------



## Vandal

Second video of the dog in the run has me baffled. I cannot understand what they think they are demonstrating there. If it is to demonstrate how "real" the dog is, I can't say "I" like what I am seeing. 

I'm sure someone will come along and educate me.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> Second video of the dog in the run has me baffled. I cannot understand what they think they are demonstrating there. If it is to demonstrate how "real" the dog is, I can't say "I" like what I am seeing.
> 
> I'm sure someone will come along and educate me.


Yeah I'm not sure. I didn't like anything I saw there lol


----------



## bill

I believe it's kennel aggression" a friend of mine has two am. bulldogs great big babies' in the kennels ' they are like Mr. Hyde ' open the doors they are Dr Jekyll!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

bill said:


> I believe it's kennel aggression" a friend of mine has two am. bulldogs great big babies' in the kennels ' they are like Mr. Hyde ' open the doors they are Dr Jekyll!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'd have preferred to see the dog stand tall with his tale flagged and staring into the eyes if the guy vs what was in that video


----------



## bill

I.m.o. kennel aggression is caused by being convinced" the feeling of no escape! Notice the ears back" the look away for a sec.a stronger dog would do nothing unless told. J.m.o. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

bill said:


> I.m.o. kennel aggression is caused by being convinced" the feeling of no escape! Notice the ears back" the look away for a sec.a stronger dog would do nothing unless told. J.m.o. Bill
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


A strong dog, who is socially aggressive will make it clear the kennel/house/the car/etc. is his territory and give a "you are not welcome here" response. A strong dog who is not socially aggressive or dominant will likely not give ant display. 

That video was "defense" not "aggression"


----------



## bill

Dead on hunter

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## bill

I trained my first p.p.d. hunter to do everything I could think of" I could put him in a kennel" car' didn't matter unless I told him to guard" he would be calm" if he was in that kennel and I told him to guard and left and you walked in he would go off the chain" if you were to mess with him he would have punched the fence with his muzzle' I promise! He loved to play" could take him anywhere! Stable confident dog. And you are right a true more natural aggressive dog would also been ready to fight" because he doesn't want to escape he wants you! Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

bill said:


> I trained my first p.p.d. hunter to do everything I could think of" I could put him in a kennel" car' didn't matter unless I told him to guard" he would be calm" if he was in that kennel and I told him to guard and left and you walked in he would go off the chain" if you were to mess with him he would have punched the fence with his muzzle' I promise! He loved to play" could take him anywhere! Stable confident dog. And you are right a true more natural aggressive dog would also been ready to fight" because he doesn't want to escape he wants you! Bill
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm out in public with mine right now


----------



## Blanketback

Blitzkrieg, what do you think is going on in that last video? I think the dog is really switching gears at 0:13 when the guy moves his right hand to his pocket (anticipating a reward? ears right up and focused on the hand) and a briefly again at 0:28. IDK the background of the dog in question, so I'm very curious about what I'm seeing. The only GSD I've ever known to react quite like this was a terrible fear biter when let out of her kennel, so I'm not even going to guess what's going on here, lol. What's the story?


----------



## bill

Exactly! I'm a firm believer if you have a balanced dog! You do what you are doing! I would let anyone pet my dog" a stable dog learns people are OK" just not some people" that is for you to decide! I truly believe with a good dog " they are smart enough to understand this.All of mine did" the training means everything! I think you are doing it right! J.m.o.Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

@ Carmen: Obviously the dog in Mike's vids has done enough for him to evaluate what she has. Otherwise he wouldnt be breeding her. She has likely been given some bites on sleeves etc and seen pressure sufficient to test her nerve. That doesnt equate to training in my books. If the dog didnt have it naturally he would have given her away probably for free. If the dog had to be brought along or coddled she would have been given away.
Once again ask him, he is very clear and upfront on how he operates, tests and who he sells too. 
As for if she would settle? I see an amped up dog that spends a lot of time in the kennel, she isnt being trained or worked. I see GSDs like that every day. If I crate my GSD all day she is like that. Teach the dog some structure and give her an outlet and she would settle nicely. Would she be a good pet? No she would probably be a monster. 
I dont see crazy Mal, I do see a dog with non classical prey aggression no defense. Those dogs arent for everyone but with the right nerve base and drive levels they have proven to be very successful in the working field. 
Once again look who he sells them to, more scent work then bite work where they are going.

In regards to the second dog:
I found the kennel video interesting also. Until I saw the vid and talked to the owner I assumed he was more Sporty (apparently he isnt). He has a very nice pedigree and he has been to the BSP twice and has done quite well. One of the most successful dogs in the USA I believe. He has kids that are also doing quite well and can be seen on youtube(I think some people on here own them). 

There are vids of him on the bite table, vids in the BSP (high score in protection), and the guy who uses him has a reputation thats pretty well known and easy to look up.


SO here we have two dogs both owned and being bred by guys that have an easy to trace impecible records. Both kennels have dogs in real work and dogs in sport (high end). Both Kennels have dogs that are used regularly by other very successful kennels in THEIR breeding programs.

In one vid the dog is all prey in the other the dog is in what many would call defense. In both cases people on here dont like the expression of the dogs in question.
Yet both the dogs have working offspring and are being used by succesful breeders who arent known for story telling or low quality stock or puppies. Quite the opposite infact, I would say both breeders are at the top end of the quality spectrum in North America for sure more then anyone on here.

So that leaves me with the question. DO any of us really know what we are talking about? 
In these cases reality seems to be getting in the way of alot of assumptions and absolutist remarks.

A dog who is not social and can look "defensive" (are we seeing that?) is not always insecure and can be very successful in his work and produce as such.
A dog that is all prey and is social with everyone can be an effective producer of working dogs and can also work effectively in the real world.

Are these dogs sporty? Are they ideal? Are they breeding quality? Clearly yes in all three instances to some people.

Fun topic.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> @ Carmen: Obviously the dog in Mike's vids has done enough for him to evaluate what she has. Otherwise he wouldnt be breeding her. She has likely been given some bites on sleeves etc and seen pressure sufficient to test her nerve. That doesnt equate to training in my books. If the dog didnt have it naturally he would have given her away probably for free. If the dog had to be brought along or coddled she would have been given away.
> Once again ask him, he is very clear and upfront on how he operates, tests and who he sells too.
> As for if she would settle? I see an amped up dog that spends a lot of time in the kennel, she isnt being trained or worked. I see GSDs like that every day. If I crate my GSD all day she is like that. Teach the dog some structure and give her an outlet and she would settle nicely. Would she be a good pet? No she would probably be a monster.
> I dont see crazy Mal, I do see a dog with non classical prey aggression no defense. Those dogs arent for everyone but with the right nerve base and drive levels they have proven to be very successful in the working field.
> Once again look who he sells them to, more scent work then bite work where they are going.
> 
> In regards to the second dog:
> I found the kennel video interesting also. Until I saw the vid and talked to the owner I assumed he was more Sporty (apparently he isnt). He has a very nice pedigree and he has been to the BSP twice and has done quite well. One of the most successful dogs in the USA I believe. He has kids that are also doing quite well and can be seen on youtube(I think some people on here own them).
> 
> There are vids of him on the bite table, vids in the BSP (high score in protection), and the guy who uses him has a reputation thats pretty well known and easy to look up.
> 
> 
> SO here we have two dogs both owned and being bred by guys that have an easy to trace impecible records. Both kennels have dogs in real work and dogs in sport (high end). Both Kennels have dogs that are used regularly by other very successful kennels in THEIR breeding programs.
> 
> In one vid the dog is all prey in the other the dog is in what many would call defense. In both cases people on here dont like the expression of the dogs in question.
> Yet both the dogs have working offspring and are being used by succesful breeders who arent known for story telling or low quality stock or puppies. Quite the opposite infact, I would say both breeders are at the top end of the quality spectrum in North America for sure more then anyone on here.
> 
> So that leaves me with the question. DO any of us really know what we are talking about?
> In these cases reality seems to be getting in the way of alot of assumptions and absolutist remarks.
> 
> A dog who is not social and can look "defensive" (are we seeing that?) is not always insecure and can be very successful in his work and produce as such.
> A dog that is all prey and is social with everyone can be an effective producer of working dogs and can also work effectively in the real world.
> 
> Are these dogs sporty? Are they ideal? Are they breeding quality? Clearly yes in all three instances to some people.
> 
> Fun topic.


The other thing to consider is a dog can be weird in the kennel or some other place and appear very different outside of it. 

I'd like to see that same dog on the table though


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnzdW6XdL6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeveRO38Fec


----------



## bill

I think he looked great on the field and the table in my opinion he was working in prey looking good ears up having fun! I don't think he was comfortable in the kennel. J.m.o. but hey I know nothing. lol Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## björn

Blitzkrieger, I don´t think it´s more complicated then there are different levels of "sporty" and breeders may not have exactly the same ideal, just as the breeder of that GSD you refering to have another male that is advertised as not for high trials and hence is not a good sportdog by todays standard, also the best male that breeder has produced according to their own word. One breeder may think a certain stud is great, another one doesn´t think it´s so impressive, most will say how great their dogs are I suppose. 

I think it´s not reactive dogs with geat preydrive for the sleeve that is what is a shortage of in GSD, it´s more the good nerves,hardness and courage based on real confidence that have been replaced for more sporty dogs, because dogs who do well in sport are obviously going to been used and breed by many who are intressted in sport or it´s easier to sell the puppies maybe.


----------



## carmspack

can the prey crazy dog work well , reliably, in highly stimulating environments without being distracted.


----------



## carmspack

can't help but think of the mal in the first video.

one thing , the dog isn't punishing the decoy, he is hanging on and going along for the ride . Being lifted and waltzed around the room , the dog should have used is power and driven into the decoy , commanded him to move where he wanted him to move to.

story time ! I remember one dog in particular that Joe Kuhn went to look at . The dog came out and latched on and then drove him, using her weight and powerful rear , pushed him up against the wall , no tugging , driving . That was a female . Monchi Malatesta Monchi von Malatesta DDR - old lines.

secondly, the dog that hangs on for that long a time is in danger of physical harm to itself , eyes gouged , trachea closed, a stun-blow to the head, or being knifed or shot. That is the real world fight with a hostile , non compliant suspect .
thirdly , the dog is locked in prey , in a different zone , no longer under control of the handler -- . The dog is so focused on the decoy/suspect and not paying attention to another action that may bring harm to the handler . The handler could be pummeled by some other guy and the dog wouldn't know it.


----------



## bill

In my opinion no Carmen" I believe no" if he is crazy prey" I would never trust" what if a piece of paper blew by" same as to much defense' junkyard dog or extreme fearbiter.I meet a guy a few years ago at a park" he had a Belgium mal.
Boy that dog was focused on that ball in his hand that is fine except he had so much prey you could have throwed a ball he would have been gone' no one could touch him too wired.
On the other hand my bulldog sat beside me while we talked and watched everyone walking by" anyone could pet him' and a few did" the mal' he was watching the ball' don't think he saw anyone! Lol
Anyway he said he was working with a local trainer" I told him I was a trainer" don't think he really thought so till he took the hit off the 118 # big friendly bulldog" 
He almost knocked him down" when I said out he outed wasn't mad at the guy did his job' good balance.
I wouldn't trust a dog with over the top drives either way.j.m.o. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack

you can enhance prey by introducing play . The tugging back by the dog is built by tug-play . Easy enough . Teach grip . Let the dog win . 

The driving into is different. I was thinking , there are some drives that you can teach , and others that just need to be there . That unfortunately is what current breeding selected for top performance in sport neglects and so we have fewer and fewer dogs with that ability, that come by it naturally.
That made me recall a conversation with Ellen Nickelsberg well known large sheep herder and friend of Manfred Heyne . When selecting dogs for herding , and this is a herding breed ! , you look for the dog with a natural attraction to sheep . Not a dog that necessarily chases them around in prey - but the young pup , as early as 10 to 12 weeks that just has that attitude of wanting to control a sheep maybe 4 times its weight. The pup will get up on its hind feet give a full grip around the neck and start moving the sheep around to where the dog wants to put it . It is not pulling the sheep in prey -- it is using its power to put the sheep back into place . Calmly , effectively. 
You can't teach this.

so that is one quality that is disappearing -- genetics , present herding lines.


----------



## carmspack

yes , I agree Bill , I have seen it myself .
that is why I said I wouldn't trust this mal in the blitzkrieg video -- he wants to make prey . I think he would have rushed the crowd and when they try to evade , they are moving targets , and fair game. I wouldn't trust him and seeing NO OUT , I really wouldn't trust him.
There has to be a good balance between obedience for control , and bite work.


----------



## bill

Exactly Carmen! You can train a fighter to fight" but if he has no heart" well you can't teach that.Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnzdW6XdL6k
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeveRO38Fec


I meant a square table


----------



## bill

Lol fighter's should be tested on a octagon table hunter.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

bill said:


> Lol fighter's should be tested on a octagon table hunter.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No idea what you know about table work, but the round table like in the video is not used the same as a square table, or what some call a defense table


----------



## bill

Agree on the obedience ' Carmen if they won't out' well there aren't that many junkyards are they? Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## bill

To be honest' I believe everyone can learn something new every day' and I have to say the table is knew to me" I would assume it is the same as tying a dog out to test. Please explain the difference I'm ready to learn something new " need info. lol thanks Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

I means different things to different people... Most use tables wrong anyway... Don't want to start a fire off topic lol


----------



## bill

Cool bro if you could p.m. the difference that would be great. Thanks Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## onyx'girl

seeing as how this thread has gone off in different directions, and tables were brought into the discussion, it would be good to explain the use of tables here.
I agree with you Bill, what is in the dogs heart can't be trained in or out.


----------



## robk

We use a small square table that is very unstable. Moves when the dog moves. We put a long enough chain on it that the dog can fall off but not hang him self. If the dog falls off his back legs can touch the ground but he is very uncomfortable. The dog learns to keep his balance and not allow himself to fall off.


----------



## bill

Just googled it it is the same as tying a dog out to test the defense " aggression drive" never used a table but now I know I was right" the dog in the kennel was on the table the kennel served the same purpose' the dog had nowhere to run fight or flight" his fight drive wasn't that strong' looking away' not engaging that strong: he has great prey drive' I would nurture his defense" aggression drive" no table' no tying out ' make him believe in himself. all in the training you can break a great dog if trained wrong. J.m.o. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## bill

Just read the article on table training' by Ed Crawley on the leerburg site' he is not for it ' for the same reasons I stated" too much stress put on the dog when he has to fight and can't run " this is fine on a strong aggressive dog that wants you" but on a dog with more prey and not as much ' aggressive drive you can break the dogs confidence in my opinion if not careful I wouldn't use it.they used to short chain a dog to get to bite same thing if you ask me does nothing to build confidence. I think everyone should check out the site! Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## onyx'girl

tables can also be used to set the dog into a 'zone' for teaching the hold and bark. It isn't a detrimental exercise, the dog knows the table is the "place" and will set up naturally to get in a rhythm with the barking. 
There are many uses for table training, it doesn't have to be a place of stress.


----------



## bill

Jane the tables are new to me' I say if you don't stress the dog great ' every tool has a purpose.
me personally if my dog is strong in fight drive bring it on' but if he is more towards the prey side" I would encourage him build him up ' never let him be fearful.
I look at it like training a fighter' one is brave loves to fight he can lose a fight but he still likes to fight. The other fighter he is not a coward just not as confident as the other fighter' you train him everyone tells him how good he is he has never lost a fight he believes in his self he will fight like a champion! Can he be hurt bad and have his spirit broke sure we all can" but he has the confidence to try. J.m
O. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

bill said:


> Jane the tables are new to me' I say if you don't stress the dog great ' every tool has a purpose.
> me personally if my dog is strong in fight drive bring it on' but if he is more towards the prey side" I would encourage him build him up ' never let him be fearful.
> I look at it like training a fighter' one is brave loves to fight he can lose a fight but he still likes to fight. The other fighter he is not a coward just not as confident as the other fighter' you train him everyone tells him how good he is he has never lost a fight he believes in his self he will fight like a champion! Can he be hurt bad and have his spirit broke sure we all can" but he has the confidence to try. J.m
> O. Bill
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Sent a pm


----------



## mycobraracr

Tables have many uses and every table is designed for a different use. The one I use the most is a small, tall, square table. When we use this table, we mostly have multiple decoys, not in scratch pants and visible sleeves. We use it to bring out civil aggression. Some of our table work can get very spirited. 

Table work is different than tying the dog out. The height play's a factor. Square tables don't a consistent edge like a round table. So the dogs footing can be thrown off. This play's a factor to the dog. Also working the dog without the handler present play's a factor. IMO you have to see how they are used to understand them. There is a reason there are many different types.


----------



## hunterisgreat

mycobraracr said:


> Tables have many uses and every table is designed for a different use. The one I use the most is a small, tall, square table. When we use this table, we mostly have multiple decoys, not in scratch pants and visible sleeves. We use it to bring out civil aggression. Some of our table work can get very spirited.
> 
> Table work is different than tying the dog out. The height play's a factor. Square tables don't a consistent edge like a round table. So the dogs footing can be thrown off. This play's a factor to the dog. Also working the dog without the handler present play's a factor. IMO you have to see how they are used to understand them. There is a reason there are many different types.


And just like prongs, electric, or any other tool, in skilled hands they are extremely useful, but in abusive hands can be extremely abusive


----------



## mycobraracr

hunterisgreat said:


> and just like prongs, electric, or any other tool, in skilled hands they are extremely useful, but in abusive hands can be extremely abusive


yup!!! We start out slow and over multiple sessions.


----------



## bill

Goodnight guys and ladies! Thanks again hunter' cobra good luck on your marriage' you are lucky she likes to work dogs! My wife tolerates them because she loves me " I've always had the passion since I was small. Goodnight. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Kyndaara

As a herder, I can say that reactive trigger happy prey drive is counter productive. Yet herding is an extension of prey. Manfred Heyne's puppy test involved pucking the most confident puppy with the highest attraction to the stock, yet responsive to his voice
Highest attraction is very much prey oriented. He was also looking for good nerve, full,calm grip to gain submission. Integral to the selection process is the pack drive; or responsiveness to his voice. This is where the so called genetic obedience comes into play.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Sorry hunter dont know if he has any vids on that.

@Carmen you seem fixated on the Dutchie and whether she could actually work because of her high prey drive and lack of real aggression. High prey is something valued in sport etc etc.

Here is where it all falls apart. That dog comes from a program that produces dogs that go to the military, border patrol, LE etc CONSISTENTLY. She has produced dogs that go to same.

That dog comes from the KNPV program bloodlines. They produce more working dogs then any other sport for a reason. They breed for extremes and raise their dogs pretty "extreme" too. Mike has said he raises his dogs more positively and it shows in their social demeanor.
There is a reason why he uses those bloodlines and its a numbers game. More dogs can do real work have necessary drive and nerve, less duds to give away.

Its not supposition on a forum about can dogs like that do real work. They can and do. Look at the testing border patrol, SF, other governmental orgs. Not easy to pass 99% of GSD and Mals would fail.
The dogs work period and better then most.

As for crazy high prey that dog is not, nor does it have "capping" issues to my eye. I have seen that and this is not what it looks like. 
On the bite 
The dog bites full and hard no shifting you dont know what the pressure was but obviously sufficient to leep the dog on the arm despite all the acrobatics. A suspect is not going to handle that as well as Mike with a hidden sleeve..lol. Infact I think they will be to busy screaming and begging to get the teeth filled vice off their arm. Long enough for backup to get there.
KNPV dogs dont pull genetically they are supposed to have a pushing bite. Dog is off the ground for most of the vids so dont know what pushing you expect to see lol.
As for whether the dogs grip on the arm exposes it to injury? Your begining to sound like the PP people..

The dog isnt a man eater he says that in the vid. He probably knows a bit about man eaters seeing as he imported Arco Kikert. Low prey all social aggression apparently. You only find that dog in just about every other dutch Mal pedigree in North America.. 

If that type of female wasnt producing what he needed for real work he wouldnt be using them. Dont know the intracasies to his program and how the bloodlines fit together. He seems like a nice guy Im sure if I ever get the time Ill do a training course at his kennel and find out.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Sorry hunter dont know if he has any vids on that.
> 
> @Carmen you seem fixated on the Dutchie and whether she could actually work because of her high prey drive and lack of real aggression. High prey is something valued in sport etc etc.
> 
> Here is where it all falls apart. That dog comes from a program that produces dogs that go to the military, border patrol, LE etc CONSISTENTLY. She has produced dogs that go to same.
> 
> That dog comes from the KNPV program bloodlines. They produce more working dogs then any other sport for a reason. They breed for extremes and raise their dogs pretty "extreme" too. Mike has said he raises his dogs more positively and it shows in their social demeanor.
> There is a reason why he uses those bloodlines and its a numbers game. More dogs can do real work have necessary drive and nerve, less duds to give away.
> 
> Its not supposition on a forum about can dogs like that do real work. They can and do. Look at the testing border patrol, SF, other governmental orgs. Not easy to pass 99% of GSD and Mals would fail.
> The dogs work period and better then most.
> 
> As for crazy high prey that dog is not, nor does it have "capping" issues to my eye. I have seen that and this is not what it looks like.
> On the bite
> The dog bites full and hard no shifting you dont know what the pressure was but obviously sufficient to leep the dog on the arm despite all the acrobatics. A suspect is not going to handle that as well as Mike with a hidden sleeve..lol. Infact I think they will be to busy screaming and begging to get the teeth filled vice off their arm. Long enough for backup to get there.
> KNPV dogs dont pull genetically they are supposed to have a pushing bite. Dog is off the ground for most of the vids so dont know what pushing you expect to see lol.
> As for whether the dogs grip on the arm exposes it to injury? Your begining to sound like the PP people..
> 
> The dog isnt a man eater he says that in the vid. He probably knows a bit about man eaters seeing as he imported Arco Kikert. Low prey all social aggression apparently. You only find that dog in just about every other dutch Mal pedigree in North America..
> 
> If that type of female wasnt producing what he needed for real work he wouldnt be using them. Dont know the intracasies to his program and how the bloodlines fit together. He seems like a nice guy Im sure if I ever get the time Ill do a training course at his kennel and find out.


Consider that he breeds females like that to males who are a bit more "nasty". Perhaps that's how he produces working litters best?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Probably, he implied Arco type dogs would get returned to him as most handlers wouldnt be able to handle him. A lot of Euro breeders especially mal seem to just want a stable social female with good drive and nerve. 
I still think she would be plenty of dog for PD work.


----------



## carmspack

I have been following KNPV for a long time .
I have KNPV met lof in my pedigrees , and intend to add more , as appropriate . 

so , not evaluating a program or dogs that are relatives , only this one dog , I still see a capping issue .

If a dog can't control itself or be controllable any benefits the dog would have to offer are negated . The dog either can't be used, used in limited conditions or won't be used . 

KNPV is not a free for all . A great deal of obedience and control are part of the evaluations. 
Here is a female Gipsy von der Schiffslache who went 440/440 at the KNPV nationals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shEfZXTvcRI
You see what she is doing ? She is on her hind feet gripping and pushing against the man . I'll show you some others ? The dog outs .

a beautiful performance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vbGOfW4twE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSqm2vcI2fs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpfGkD31S-Y 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QyvS7ayUI

440/440

blitzkrieg "A lot of Euro breeders especially mal seem to just want a stable social female with good drive and nerve. "

yes they do ! what a good idea .

blitzkrieg "I still think she would be plenty of dog for PD work. "

I don't think so . Wouldn't pass certification. my opinion , experience based.

the use of dogs in police work is as an assistant not as a single handed cavalry . The selection process is demanding . Out of every 100 evaluated about 6 make it into the program for training. That is not to say that those 6 will exit as certified police k9s . The work is becoming more sophisticated .


----------



## Steve Strom

I wonder what the ratio of dogs is, that he sells to military/police vs us regular shmoes?


----------



## carmspack

Kyndaara said "
As a herder, I can say that reactive trigger happy prey drive is counter productive. Yet herding is an extension of prey. Manfred Heyne's puppy test involved pucking the most confident puppy with the highest attraction to the stock, yet responsive to his voice
Highest attraction is very much prey oriented. He was also looking for good nerve, full,calm grip to gain submission. Integral to the selection process is the pack drive; or responsiveness to his voice. This is where the so called genetic obedience comes into play. "

I would love to see some of your experience with herding dogs and genetic obedience on the thread "genetic obedience?" because most people don't know what it is , or think it is story telling and Disney land http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/314281-genetic-obedience.html


----------



## bill

Great video Carmen! That mal worked like a Shepherd" my old dog Cherokee had genetic on. Carmen he worked for me ' he liked to play ball" he liked treats' I promise he liked love better! He loved to please you know what I mean you could hear it in his voice' when you asked him if he wanted to work.Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## G-burg

> I would love to see some of your experience with herding dogs and genetic obedience on the thread "genetic obedience?" because most people don't know what it is , or think it is story telling and Disney land


 I think it's something the old timers got to experience more in the dogs of the past.. The guy I train with who's been doing SchH for a long, long time, has lately been talking about the dogs of the past.. Granted he doesn't now the particular bloodlines, but will say how the dogs used to work with the handlers, just for the pleasure of it and wanting to please them..


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> I have been following KNPV for a long time .
> I have KNPV met lof in my pedigrees , and intend to add more , as appropriate .
> 
> so , not evaluating a program or dogs that are relatives , only this one dog , I still see a capping issue .
> 
> If a dog can't control itself or be controllable any benefits the dog would have to offer are negated . The dog either can't be used, used in limited conditions or won't be used .
> 
> KNPV is not a free for all . A great deal of obedience and control are part of the evaluations.
> Here is a female Gipsy von der Schiffslache who went 440/440 at the KNPV nationals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shEfZXTvcRI
> You see what she is doing ? She is on her hind feet gripping and pushing against the man . I'll show you some others ? The dog outs .
> 
> a beautiful performance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vbGOfW4twE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSqm2vcI2fs
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpfGkD31S-Y
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QyvS7ayUI
> 
> 440/440
> 
> blitzkrieg "A lot of Euro breeders especially mal seem to just want a stable social female with good drive and nerve. "
> 
> yes they do ! what a good idea .
> 
> blitzkrieg "I still think she would be plenty of dog for PD work. "
> 
> I don't think so . Wouldn't pass certification. my opinion , experience based.
> 
> the use of dogs in police work is as an assistant not as a single handed cavalry . The selection process is demanding . Out of every 100 evaluated about 6 make it into the program for training. That is not to say that those 6 will exit as certified police k9s . The work is becoming more sophisticated .


 
We can agree to disagree..ofcourse you can call him and ask... 
He's the one with the govt contracts and the dogs in question..

Dont mention points to the hardcore KNPV folks..lol. Obedience and control is not something they judge the quality of dogs on..last I checked.


----------



## Packen

The Stig said:


> Hi All,
> 
> First off, I am not sure where to post this question so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum.
> 
> I have been reading several threads, including the one re: Which Drago breeding to pick, and I keep seeing discussions about the sportiness of dogs.
> 
> I am unsure what exactly the definition means in regards to this context. My own interpretation is, a dog would have to be sporty to be in this sport and these dogs already are. So I am confused.
> 
> Thanks!


A good dog is a good dog, PEROID. "Sporty" and "Real" are pitiful excuses.


----------



## carmspack

okay , I'll make this crowd aware 

knpv " Unlike the other dog sports, this is not a game. These are not dogs whose most difficult challenges are those in the artificial training and testing environment of the sport. These are police dogs. The most difficult trial is likely to be easier than the challenges the dog will face on the street, in real life situations that the handler cannot control. For this reason, above all else the KNPV tests for the dog that is exceptionally tough. 


All the dog sports test character and training, but they all draw different balances between the desired drives (prey v. defence, etc) and the "polish" necessary to get the control points. The KNPV (at the PH 1 level) is probably the least demanding of any of the dog "sports" on the polish expected. Control is vital, but precision is not. If the KNPV is the least demanding in precision, however, it is also the most demanding in terms of the raw power and resiliency required of the dogs' temperament. "

from a translation of a Dutch KNPV trainer ". A very good thing about this is that the KNPV never changed the rules and exercises so that also the inferior dogs could get a PH1 title. No! The KNPV always supported the breeding of good qualified dogs. In other countries it happened that they changed the program to fit the type of dogs being bred instead of breeding dogs who are able to do the program. Everybody knows where this leads to: “destruction of the dogs working abilities. When that happens they have a problem which is even bigger than what they started with. Now they have only dogs with a lack of working abilities. This is about the same reason why the KNPV doesn't worry if a dog is registered or not registered.”
and "This more or less old fashion thinking or maybe stubborn behavior of the KNPV gave us the good quality working dog we see today. Strong, hard biting, dogs with a lot of drive and spectacular high bites which are so famous for the KNPV." (Bob Neyts)

GSD and the KNPV program ". Since only a few people within the KNPV train with German shepherds, the interest in a good KNPV stud dog is generally very limited"

which means the genetics don't get passed on ! Kennel van Brandevoort - Filosofie


----------



## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> okay , I'll make this crowd aware
> 
> knpv " Unlike the other dog sports, this is not a game. These are not dogs whose most difficult challenges are those in the artificial training and testing environment of the sport. These are police dogs. The most difficult trial is likely to be easier than the challenges the dog will face on the street, in real life situations that the handler cannot control. For this reason, above all else the KNPV tests for the dog that is exceptionally tough.
> 
> 
> All the dog sports test character and training, but they all draw different balances between the desired drives (prey v. defence, etc) and the "polish" necessary to get the control points. The KNPV (at the PH 1 level) is probably the least demanding of any of the dog "sports" on the polish expected. Control is vital, but precision is not. If the KNPV is the least demanding in precision, however, it is also the most demanding in terms of the raw power and resiliency required of the dogs' temperament. "
> 
> from a translation of a Dutch KNPV trainer ". A very good thing about this is that the KNPV never changed the rules and exercises so that also the inferior dogs could get a PH1 title. No! The KNPV always supported the breeding of good qualified dogs. In other countries it happened that they changed the program to fit the type of dogs being bred instead of breeding dogs who are able to do the program. Everybody knows where this leads to: “destruction of the dogs working abilities. When that happens they have a problem which is even bigger than what they started with. Now they have only dogs with a lack of working abilities. This is about the same reason why the KNPV doesn't worry if a dog is registered or not registered.”
> and "This more or less old fashion thinking or maybe stubborn behavior of the KNPV gave us the good quality working dog we see today. Strong, hard biting, dogs with a lot of drive and spectacular high bites which are so famous for the KNPV." (Bob Neyts)
> 
> GSD and the KNPV program ". Since only a few people within the KNPV train with German shepherds, the interest in a good KNPV stud dog is generally very limited"
> 
> which means the genetics don't get passed on ! Kennel van Brandevoort - Filosofie


I'd prefer knpv if there were somewhere to train here.


----------



## carmspack

at least I have Ring available (again), so I'll be making some visits out there .

this from one of the hard-core knpv guys Gerben Kamphuis "*
We want our dogs working in fight, not in prey or defence. We want our dogs to be "A-social" in nature. We want them to love the fight. They are motivated by the desire to fight the decoy, not to gain a sleeve for the run back to the car.​ I think also that the KNPV has bred a dog with more fight. Our dogs are in drive for the decoy at a young age from their genes. "
*


----------



## bill

Agree on prefer kNPV!
when you go to a drag race" its not the flashy car with the shining wheels that wins the race" it's the one with the most horsepower getting a good grip! 
Nothing against the ring sports" just what I like.Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack

good dog -- got to have that out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ4oNXMU55E

in ring there are exercises which have you recall your dog from a bite (before getting the bite) . The distance to do so is closer to the decoy than that required in KNPV .


----------



## bill

That's what I'm talking about Carmen! A Strong foundation " makes a strong house" a weak foundation well it falls down" teaching out is no problem with a good dog" balance balance! Great video thanks Carmen - Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack

another good dog -- historic video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQBJCTLAQMU


----------



## bill

Yes it was a great old video:thumbup:

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## cliffson1

I'm smiling to myself.....we just washed out a Dutchie in the sixth week of police school, ( Dutchie), who had awesome prey and great grips and was from KNPV lines imported from Holland. ( let me preface this by saying that the vast majority of KNPV dogs I have seen in LE work were super dogs.) anyway, in this case the dog had very strong gunfire issues....to the point that the dog was unreliable in work once gunfire commenced. ( probably why he was in states in first place....lol). Anyway, if you saw a video of this dog in which gunfire wasn't present many of you would be impressed. This post is not here to make any declarative statement, except all dogs need to be tested and vetted regardless of lines and sources.


----------



## björn

That´s true cliff, there are sporty dogs, or dogs that lack something for a specific job in all lines and programs. Saw 4 malinois from KNPV dogs tested recently for policework, 2 of them didn´t make it due to enviromental issues and a bit too soft in general. 

A rather big breeder I´m aware of are planning breeding where the female is described as having the natural aggresion,hardness and couarge that is lacking nowadays in many GSDs. And with aggresion I don´t mean a dog who is dangerous and wanting to bite for no reason. So I don´t think sportdogs and "real" dogs are just imagination, and I guess many are also aware of the difference and which dogs are more on the sporty side I also would say that even if some agency need a specific type of dog for the job, like extreme huntdrive for detection and a certian breed is more suited for that, this just mean a certain dog is wanted and not that a GSD must be able to compete with that, there are many more common roles to fill who don´t need a specialist.


----------



## bill

Need a blue collar dog" to take on any task' not a specialist in any one field " but can do anything! Humm I know how about a good German Shepherd!!! 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Vandal

Leesa wrote:


> I think it's something the old timers got to experience more in the dogs of the past.. The guy I train with who's been doing SchH for a long, long time, has lately been talking about the dogs of the past.. Granted he doesn't now the particular bloodlines, but will say how the dogs used to work with the handlers, just for the pleasure of it and wanting to please them..


There are still some dogs like that but few people are working to preserve it. We have a new mentality where everything is about flash and speed and obedience is achieved through prey drive. Same thing has happened with horses. The "tools" are more advanced, so people think the animal itself can be more hot without considering what was once natural in the animal........Again, all in the quest for flash. 

You BREED for these things but at the same time, you have to know how to work with it. I think mostly, people have forgotten how to praise and they clearly do not understand how important it is.
I watch people train with balls and food and they are like machines and very quiet. The most they say to their dog now is "yes". I am not against using food and balls but people are leaving themselves out of the equation and forcing the method THEY want to use on dogs who are sometimes not suited for it. Praise actually requires a bit of skill. I am shocked at the numbers of people who can't do it and also how many think it doesn't matter to the dog. Same with protection, where every dog is wearing an e-collar and the understanding and ability to read the individual dog is going away. 

Years ago, these people with their one way of doing things would be scoffed at. Now they are the majority....and there you have it.


----------



## carmspack

oh YES , it's as if they don't even have to be there . 
Makes for a remote , robotic , limited performance picture.


"You BREED for these things but at the same time, you have to know how to work with it. I think mostly, people have forgotten how to praise and they clearly do not understand how important it is.
I watch people train with balls and food and they are like machines and very quiet. The most they say to their dog now is "yes". I am not against using food and balls but people are leaving themselves out of the equation and forcing the method THEY want to use on dogs who are sometimes not suited for it. Praise actually requires a bit of skill. I am shocked at the numbers of people who can't do it and also how many think it doesn't matter to the dog"

even some of the knpv guys are saying the same things about dogs "now" , not the same as the dogs of the 70's to 90's when things got more commercial.


----------



## bill

How true! Handle" Carmen"
Thank goodness you guys know what too breed for"my first I trained in78 had it" back then we got a lot of dogs in some were b.y.b. some pink papered" seemed they all wanted to work" to please" what I remember back then the biggest problem was hip disp. bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## bill

Sorry vandel this phone!
But you do have a handle on things. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack

that is the whole point , what MAY be right for a malinois is not right for a GSD who is supposed to be versatile and multi-utility . 

When a dog enters KNPV it is judged as a generic dog who goes through the program and the performance is judged and graded .

That, whether a Dutch Shepherd, a Malinois a GSD , a Bouvier a MIX , because breed is not important .

Outside the field is where specific breed characteristics have to be present and true to the breed. A GSD should not be a Malinois .

Correct me this if it not right .

KNPV is not a sport . Points do matter . A dog that squeaks by still gets the KNPV document , but people that care , will take note.

If it was a horrible day , some fluke, not at all on as per normal , then you can compete again to better the score . But, that is your last chance . If you do same? or less , your certificate is taken away, and you can't try again.

You can have a lower score , not 440/440 , say 424 but be classified as "elite" with a Met Lof - 

There was a youtube which I saw a while ago , a tribute to a great little dog , KNPV. I believe KNPV II - anyway in the clip shown the dog apprehends suspect on bicycle . He leaps at the bike and gets his leg caught in the bars of the "men's" bike , not the spokes of the wheels because they have solid disc covering . Although every attempt is made to stop the bike there is still some momentum which drags him forward . Handler and two officials , and the man on the bike , extricate the dog . He is given an examination off to the side , and apparently is okay . The handler , and the dog who shows that he is raring to go , decide to proceed . Boy did he proceed . The dog had that extra motivation to take the guy on the bike down. What great heart that dog has . 

That is what I admire . Tenacity and courage . Physical and emotional hardness. At no time was this dog showing any misdirected aggression , no panic, to any of the crew that was trying to help him. Very clear .


----------



## carmspack

Cliff would probably recognize this . 

Here is one difference in all sports --- they all test in broad daylight.

There are some dogs reluctant to enter dark buildings (alone) , (one of my tests) . There are some dogs that perform poorly in dark of night . There are some dogs which are reluctant to work in close places whether , deep bush, high brush - corn field , warehouse , in other words reduced visibility . Talking about the reality of working dogs in service .


----------



## cliffson1

Carmen.....exactly.....can't say how many grass field superstars that I have seen either at night, empty buildings at night, or unsure surfaces, and all that superstar drive either evaporates or dog drops in drive and/or confidence during the work.....that is why I seldom look at YouTube videos and draw strong conclusions.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Funny you mention Gerben. He was at Mike's for a seminar not to far back. They also do or did alot of business together. I believe he was the one to send him Arco Kikert.
Apparently he does a real good suit work seminar.

KNPV IS a sport. Points have little to do with how they judge the quality of a dog in KNPV. The best dogs are often sold before they even trial for PH1. Its a small country they know who has quality and who doesnt usually before any trials. Buyers like the Dutch Police, security and brokers are not buying dogs based on points.. Ask the Van Leuwens, Mike or Gerben Kamphaus they are on that other forum that shall remain nameless. Very interesting info they have frequently posted for those interested in KNPV and Dutchies, they also answer pms.


----------



## gsdsar

Maybe I missed it, but Mike who???? Never been good with knowing and understanding an important "name drop". Plus, newbie to IPO, so some names go right over my head. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

gsdsar said:


> Maybe I missed it, but Mike who???? Never been good with knowing and understanding an important "name drop". Plus, newbie to IPO, so some names go right over my head.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Mike Suttle. He is a well known and respected guy, deals primarily to LE with dutchies and mals I believe


----------



## gsdsar

hunterisgreat said:


> Mike Suttle. He is a well known and respected guy, deals primarily to LE with dutchies and mals I believe



Ok thanks. The only Mike I could think of was Diehl. I will look him up. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

gsdsar said:


> Ok thanks. The only Mike I could think of was Diehl. I will look him up.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Diehl is a GSD man


----------



## gsdsar

hunterisgreat said:


> Diehl is a GSD man



Yeah. That's why I was confuddled with all the dutchie talk!!! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lhczth

carmspack said:


> can the prey crazy dog work well , reliably, in highly stimulating environments without being distracted.


Yes, Mals and Duchies do it all of the time. 

Still don't want my GSD to be a Mal.


----------



## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> Yes, Mals and Duchies do it all of the time.
> 
> Still don't want my GSD to be a Mal.


+1 There are many ways to solve the need of a working dog. Mals/Dutchies are one. GSDs (traditional) are another


----------



## lhczth

Mike D is a GSD man, but as an LEO, he also brings in and works with other breeds. 

I have been in IN training dogs for the last 3 days so am a bit behind. 

The dog in the kennel is afraid. He wants the person in front of the kennel to go away. You can see the avoidance, the fear. This video actually turned me off of a dog that I thought looked really super in the other videos I have seen of him.


----------



## pets4life

I always saw sporty dogs mostly interested in the sleeve, too much prey not enough defense. Lacking balance. IF the decoy is naked just say a sporty dog would not really be interested till he put the sleeve on. JMHO

There is not always such black and white though some dogs can do the sleeve game then take the sleeve off they have no problem going after and biting the helper with no equipment.


----------

