# Green dogs in the states



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I wasn't sure where this would fit. Move if needed. 


Why is it green dogs are a big business in Europe but not here? Recently I have been looking for green dogs. What I'm finding in the states is less than stellar. It doesn't seem to matter how nice the pedigree, the green dogs foundation work here in the states either seems to be lacking or I'm finding dogs listed as green dogs but really haven't had any foundation work. They have just been allowed to run wild for the first twelve months of their lives. So what's the deal? It seems hundreds of green dogs are imported from Europe every day. Weather people want to admit it or not, it's cheaper to get a green dog. So, why are we so far behind power curve?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I was looking for one because I really did not want to go through puppy stuff. I found it next to impossible to find a decent one. I went and saw / tested 3-4 in my area, all had various issues mainly nerves. I just did not trust a lot of the ones I saw posted on PDB and did not have time to drive down and look at all of them. Im sure there are some out there but they arent easy to find.. Unless you want to spend 5-7k at an importer with a decent rep. 
Honestly, I didnt even care about training just wanted a good raw product.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I wrote this huge long post speculating about hypothetical reasons, but then I thought better of it because actually I have NO idea what the real reasons are. It's entertaining for me to guess (it's an interesting question!), but you probably want to hear from someone who, you know, has an actual clue about the answer. 

But in a nutshell, if I were asked to guess, I would speculate that it has probably something to do with the market for sport dogs in the U.S. being fairly small, geographically spread out (it's not that much cheaper to transport a dog cross-country than to import one from an established European broker), and culturally splintered from other sports (which further reduces the market for both buyers and sellers).

If there is no steady and substantial demand -- and I suspect that there is not -- then there isn't much incentive for people to position themselves as sellers. There's doubly no incentive to go to the considerable trouble of finding and prepping green dogs for knowledgeable buyers vs. selling sport washouts as $65K "executive protection dogs" to the clueless.

Again, though, I have no idea what the real answer is. This is pure speculation. I'd love to hear from someone knowledgeable on the topic.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I think there's a lot of factors and they all feed each other.

First we are really spread out, I can think of maybe 3 breeders within a 4 hour drive of me in any direction that I would go look at GSD's from. I can think of an even smaller number of Mal breeders and I wouldn't even consider them "breeders" though they've produced some nice dogs, they don't breed often enough to have a regular supply. 

Lots of breeders that never have anything of quality for working, they may have some nice qualities for other things, but certainly lacking.

So, as someone that is going to look, i can go to Europe and look at hundreds of dogs in a week in a driveable area, never driving more than an hour or less at a time. 

Or I can commit to finding one here and have a handful of kennels spread out a half days drive or more usually and only get to see a couple dogs. I'd be lucky to hit 2 or 3 breeders every day or two and they usually won't have a lot of dogs. 

As a broker, where is my time better spent to find prospects? as a breeder in America, where am I best able to sell my dogs? I can't sell to the local PD's, they use a broker that always goes to Europe because it makes his job easier. If they or he takes a dog from me it pisses off his contacts in Europe or if a PD finds it's own dog (which is rare) they rarely have the support needed to train and certify the dog so they rely on the broker. They aren't going to make him angry. 

So why should I be keeping dogs back to work and sell? If they are really that good, i'm keeping them for breeding anyway myself or placing them with someone I trust so I can use them later. 

Not saying that culture can't change, but I don't see it changing anytime soon. I think ultimately it comes down to size and distance and that spawns a bunch of other secondary problems.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I was looking for one because I really did not want to go through puppy stuff. I found it next to impossible to find a decent one. I went and saw / tested 3-4 in my area, all had various issues mainly nerves. I just did not trust a lot of the ones I saw posted on PDB and did not have time to drive down and look at all of them. Im sure there are some out there but they arent easy to find.. Unless you want to spend 5-7k at an importer with a decent rep.
> Honestly, I didnt even care about training just wanted a good raw product.


I had the same issue and am still finding it that way. I will more than likely be taking a risk with a puppy next year if I can't find a young dog with solid temperament and nerve with the foundation I want.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

This is interesting. I too have been looking for a green dog for a while, and I have found some really nice dogs, but to me they all have too much training on them to be what I consider a green dog. To me a green dog is a dog that has really not done much else then drive work. Most of what I found had a lot of obedience training and/or foundation work of some kind.

I decided to having someone import a dog for me. Could I find what I need here in the US? Probably, but the time and money I would have to spend on travel would make the dog far too expensive.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

In my area, there were a few dogs that were finished for sale, being a novice, I didn't want a finished dog but I also didn't want a dog with just drive building. I wanted something in between (possibly a BH or IPO1). The cost for these dogs was way more than what I would pay if I just imported a young dog from Europe. But then again, you take a risk in trusting those to make the right decisions for you.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Due to the Euro going up at the moment, price wise, I found it to be about the same price for a green dog in the US or to have one imported.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

All I can contribute to this is a conversation I had with a working line breeder we are considering. She has many friends in Germany that she trusts and just imported a stellar "green" male from them a little over a year ago. She has also imported a female or two to contribute to her program. She was saying that even when you get a green dog from Europe you always have to figure out "why" the dog is for sale. Luckily, she has people over there she trusts....but it doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of dogs that get minimal/lousy training, to get that SchH1 slapped on them, or a BH, and then are sold to the states....so, while there obviously isn't the same market for it here, I think it's not a "great" market over there either....the dogs are there, but you have to have someone/a friend, that you really trust over there. I wish there was a better market here, it would make my decision a little easier.

We were thinking about getting a green dog...I really really don't want to go through the puppy stuff again...But, I think it may just be because I am in the wake of losing my young dog and I will probably be excited about a puppy in a few months. We are leaning towards the puppy route because of our young child....but I am still a little on the fence...sigh...I just put so much work into the first 1.5 of my gsd's life, and he was finally getting "adult" and now he's gone...it's going to take me a little while to get on board with the puppy thing again....


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

DinoBlue said:


> To me a green dog is a dog that has really not done much else then drive work. Most of what I found had a lot of obedience training and/or foundation work of some kind.


Ah, see, I'd define a "green" dog as one that's begun obedience/foundation work but hasn't yet been titled (so that's a little different from what elisabeth was saying too!).

Those dogs don't really exist in other sports, though. You may come across an occasional dog that's being rehomed because of the owner's life changes or because it was held back and worked by a breeder, then deemed unsuitable for the breeding program for some reason, but those dogs are very uncommon in the performance venues where I'm active.

This sort of goes to my speculation about the splintering of the sport world, though. I train my dogs in a very particular way (lots of emphasis on "learning to learn," free thinking, and rewarding the dog's choices to work with me as the handler). I'm currently taking a class with an instructor who teaches a diametrically opposed approach: lots of physical manipulation (as opposed to luring or free shaping) to get desired behaviors; the dog is forcibly guided into the desired position and generally has _no_ choice about whether or how to work.

It's the same sport -- these are both approaches to competition obedience, and they're both taught by OTCH handlers -- but I would _never_ want a green dog who had been started in the second method. Whether or not the dog knows the behaviors is of little interest to me. I can teach the behaviors. What I want is a dog who has a long reinforcement history for creative thinking and voluntary interaction, and who has strong foundational behaviors in targeting and perch work as opposed to "finished" behaviors like a close Front or flip finish. So for me to buy a green dog started by somebody in the second school would make no sense. I'd have to go back and re-do everything and it would be more work than just starting with a puppy.

To the extent that other buyers are similarly looking for a variety of different foundational skills (and that's without getting into different _sports!_), the splintering of the market makes it even harder for a breeder, broker, or trainer to meet a demand that may vary widely from buyer to buyer. A less uniform demand is much harder to meet.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Merciel said:


> Ah, see, I'd define a "green" dog as one that's begun obedience/foundation work but hasn't yet been titled (so that's a little different from what elisabeth was saying too!).
> 
> Those dogs don't really exist in other sports, though.


My mistake. I am not in the market for a sport dog, need something slight different. I need a dog that I can start training immediately without having to worry about what training already has been done, and that may be counter productive to what my needs are.

Either way, it seems most breeders here in the US sells puppies and rarely keep a dog back with the intent to sell as a "green dog". Which brings us back to the original question, why is that?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I think the majority of breeders in the USA/Canada don't have the capacity to hold dogs back as they do in Europe or other countries. Either funding, space, time, etc. at least the ones producing quality dogs. 

I know when I was asking around for a "green dog" I was being offered dogs with BH's or IPO1's and the breeders were considering these dogs "green" as well. I personally think of green dogs with the potential and training to obtain these titles once they have been sold, ready to title but needs some cleaning up to do, etc. and hasn't obtained the title just yet.

My only concern (as mentioned already) is *why* these dogs were being offered for sale? The only sure way I would feel comfortable purchasing a green dog is if I knew the seller or had someone I really trusted working with me to obtain a dog. I want to know the *why* before I got invested.

I do however, know of someone at my club who has a nice female, showline, good drive, excellent nerve who was offered for sale as a green dog because the owner died and no one wanted to continue her training or care. My club member who purchased her lucked out and got a good dog out of it. He spayed her and is working her in OB, but this female has the capacity for a lot more if that is where his interest was at. I am just leery, especially now-a-days where it seems everyone is trying to break into "the dog business".


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I think the majority of breeders in the USA/Canada don't have the capacity to hold dogs back as they do in Europe or other countries. Either funding, space, time, etc. at least the ones producing quality dogs.


Yes, this is the impression that I also get. I've spent most of the last nine months doing research on Imaginary Future Puppy (who, me, obsessive?) and almost all the breeders I like and would trust to give me a top-quality dog are small hobby breeders who don't make a living off their dogs. They work other jobs to support the dogs, and they usually have some or all of the dogs living in their own homes, so the capacity is not there to hold 10-20 dogs and raise/train them for sale.

The breeder/brokers I've found who _are_ doing that tend to be geared more toward the police or military (i.e., buyers with a consistent demand for a consistent type of dog). They occasionally sell dogs to sport homes as well, but it isn't their primary market. I haven't done enough research to get a clear sense of what kind of foundational training they do with their dogs or whether it would be compatible with my goals -- in general those aren't quite the types of dogs I'm looking for, so my inquiry into those breeders tends to end there.

Some breeders do occasionally hold back a puppy for a few extra months to raise it and evaluate how their breeding program is doing, and if I really wanted a started puppy, I'd look hard for those breeders and try to develop a strong relationship with them. But even the ones who do that don't do it for every litter, and there's no guarantee that the pup who gets held back will be the pup you want, and you'd probably have to wait even longer for that particular opportunity to pop up.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I very much agree with you.

That is the boat I am in at the moment. I am currently speaking with a few breeders for that reason - and to narrow the choices down even further, I am looking for a specific bloodline on top of that. 

I think building those relationships with breeders that you do trust, if its for a future puppy or young dog, is the only way to really get what you want. I feel like I have a good few people/breeders to trust which makes this a tad easier. Either I get a pup/dog from them or they will help place one with me through their own contacts.

I am still a year off, so I am still in "wait and research" mode.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I very much agree with you.
> 
> That is the boat I am in at the moment. I am currently speaking with a few breeders for that reason - and to narrow the choices down even further, I am looking for a specific bloodline on top of that.
> 
> ...


This x100! I feel so blessed to have knowledgeable people with connections in the US as well as over in Europe (they work closely with the Europeans and consider them great friends). I would be so lost if I didn't feel I had people I trusted and in turn trust their connections.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

When I was looking the price for what the military was willing to pay for a good prospect had gone up so much it was not worth it so I went the puppy route. I would say the price tripled for a green dog in the past 10 years.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm going to try and address a few things. 

To me a green dog is one that is between 10-24 months, has had foundation work in both obedience and bite work. Most of the ones I see have also had hips and elbows prelims done so it takes that worry off the table. I truly believe people save money by going with a green dog. The upfront cost is more but the time and money invested in a puppy over that same period of time is just as much if not more and you still don't know if the puppy is truly what you're looking for. I don't worry as much about the "Why is the dog for sale?" stuff because green dogs as well as already titled dogs are big business. Not so much here in the states but everywhere else. Through my contacts, I find some really nice green dogs in the price range of $4500-$7000. That part seems reasonable to me looking at how much I invest into my puppies their first year of life. What kills me is the $1200 plus in shipping to get it here. That's why I was wondering why more people on this side of the Atlantic don't do it. Plus like I said, most people don't seem to raise puppies right. There are so many key points and things that IMO should be taught as a puppy. I do have some breeder friends that hold puppies back just to see first hand what they are producing then sell them around a year, but like some of you said, these aren't readily available. I have been thinking for a while now about getting into the "green dog game". I think it really is the safest bet. At that age you know what you have.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

mycobraracr said:


> Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm going to try and address a few things.
> 
> To me a green dog is one that is between 10-24 months, has had foundation work in both obedience and bite work. Most of the ones I see have also had hips and elbows prelims done so it takes that worry off the table. I truly believe people save money by going with a green dog. The upfront cost is more but the time and money invested in a puppy over that same period of time is just as much if not more and you still don't know if the puppy is truly what you're looking for. I don't worry as much about the "Why is the dog for sale?" stuff because green dogs as well as already titled dogs are big business. Not so much here in the states but everywhere else. Through my contacts, I find some really nice green dogs in the price range of $4500-$7000. That part seems reasonable to me looking at how much I invest into my puppies their first year of life. What kills me is the $1200 plus in shipping to get it here. That's why I was wondering why more people on this side of the Atlantic don't do it. Plus like I said, most people don't seem to raise puppies right. There are so many key points and things that IMO should be taught as a puppy. I do have some breeder friends that hold puppies back just to see first hand what they are producing then sell them around a year, but like some of you said, these aren't readily available.* I have been thinking for a while now about getting into the "green dog game". I think it really is the safest bet. At that age you know what you have.*


So you mean you may get into the breeding and holding pups back then selling them as green dogs? I think there is a market for them....but then again many people want a foundation, some want little to nothing, some want titles. As a breeder it would be very time consuming to raise up pups for this market, unless they are just growing out kennel dogs to later sell if they don't wash out. 
A couple local breeders I know have green dogs for sale now and then and they are usually good pedigree, just growing up in a kennel with little training whatsoever. I just wonder what they do with the pups that end up with issues or quirks.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> So you mean you may get into the breeding and holding pups back then selling them as green dogs? I think there is a market for them....but then again many people want a foundation, some want little to nothing, some want titles. As a breeder it would be very time consuming to raise up pups for this market, unless they are just growing out kennel dogs to later sell if they don't wash out.
> A couple local breeders I know have green dogs for sale now and then and they are usually good pedigree, just growing up in a kennel with little training whatsoever. I just wonder what they do with the pups that end up with issues or quirks.


 

Yes, when (still a long ways away), we start breeding I would like to hold puppies back and start a green dog program. It would be very small scale so how many dogs would depend on time and space. It would probably also mean that those would be "my dogs" to work and train so I would give up the chance of having a personal dog titled to an IPO 5,000 or anything. I think I'm okay with that. My GF would still trial and probably be the handler for our breeding females. But, I'm thinking about maybe starting green dogs now. At this point I would only be able to take on 1 at a time but still. It may give me that slow start I need to get into this. Plus at such a low number, I can place and still guarantee my dogs and work without getting over run if one comes back for whatever reason. At this point it wouldn't be about making a profit. Just a chance for me to get my feet wet and learn the business side if things and see if it's something I want to get into.


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## Catterman (Jun 30, 2013)

we just had 6 greenies picked up tonight in D.C. from C. repubic.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Catterman said:


> we just had 6 greenies picked up tonight in D.C. from C. repubic.


 
See! This is what I'm talking about. It seems like just in the groups I talk to (not including this forum) a green dog is coming in every month! It appears the market is there to support it to some extent.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, you could import pups and grow them out a bit just to see if it is something you think will be rewarding.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Contact Birgit Hall. She always has nice green dogs for sale. She is also an occasional poster on this forum. She recently gave a member of this forum a full refund on a 7 month old that was too much for him to handle. I have seen several dogs that have come from her and they have been very nice.

http://www.policedogs.us/


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I have a feeling it has something to do with how the general public would look at a "green dog kennel." It would really look a lot like that kennel on Alpha Dogs where you'd have a full time staff, and dogs would live in kennels and get their 30 minutes of human attention every day and that's it until they're "of age" and get trained or get that foundation training you're talking about.

I think what OP wants to do is really great, but even OP seems to know there isn't much profit in it and just personal enjoyment/gain that ends in a little paycheck at the end of it. I believe that in order for a program like this to be profitable, it truly does have to be a very large scale operation and again, those types of operations aren't looked at very favorably in the United States. And although I understand there is a market for these dogs...police/military/sport. Its quite a tiny market compared to the pet/companion market...and all those police/military/sport people can get what they need from Germany for pretty much the same cost as they would cost here (like you guys have all mentioned).


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> At this point I would only be able to take on 1 at a time but still. It may give me that slow start I need to get into this. Plus at such a low number, I can place and still guarantee my dogs and work without getting over run if one comes back for whatever reason. At this point it wouldn't be about making a profit. Just a chance for me to get my feet wet and learn the business side if things and see if it's something I want to get into.


I think that's a very sensible way to go about it. 

It's not a perfect comparison, I know, but I've been fostering for a while and one of the things I noticed about fostering was that in the beginning I was really excited to get to know a new dog and watch the light go on in its eyes as it learned how to interact with humans in a constructive and rewarding way. None of my fosters had ever had any prior training -- they all came to me without knowing how to focus or walk nicely on leash or Sit on cue -- and it was fun! It was an adventure!

Fast-forward a couple of years and I am bored out of my _mind_ teaching Sit and Down and Stay and potty training and loose leash walking. Don't get me wrong, fostering is still hugely rewarding and I still love it, but the actual training? Doing those same few basic steps over and over and _over_? Booorrrriiing. You couldn't pay me to do it. In fact you literally cannot pay me to do it, I quit pet dog training for basically that reason.

I think my next foster I'm going to get started with foundational sport work instead of Sit-Down-Stay for the umpteenth time. Just to do something different.

Anyway, yeah, try teaching a bunch of dogs to do the same things a bazillion times in a row and see if you still enjoy it at the end of the gig. And throw in marketing/networking, buyer screening, and all that other fun stuff for kicks. Maybe you'll love it. Maybe you'll be real glad you only committed to one dog at a time.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i haven't researched it but i think in the USA people prefer Blacks, Sables,
Black&Red, Black&Tan, White, etc. think about it, who wants a green dog
in the USA?



mycobraracr said:


> I wasn't sure where this would fit. Move if needed.
> 
> >>>>>Why is it green dogs are a big business in Europe but
> not here? <<<<<
> ...


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i haven't researched it but i think in the USA people prefer Blacks, Sables,
> Black&Red, Black&Tan, White, etc. think about it, who wants a green dog
> in the USA?


 
Haha you may have a point. I just figured green is such a popular color right now that I would just jump on the band wagon.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hand picked, naturally strong drives, wide exposure to environments and situations , bomb proof , prelimed , ready for evaluation -- hours and hours of time off property -- that is the "green" dog that I present for work (police or specialized) 

currently working on one

have another one , actually Gus's brother , green dog ready to go , destined for further training - possibly SWAT , west coast USA , a repeat department . Cost? a fraction of the 5 to 7 thousand that someone mentioned.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

carmspack said:


> hand picked, naturally strong drives, wide exposure to environments and situations , bomb proof , prelimed , ready for evaluation -- hours and hours of time off property -- that is the "green" dog that I present for work (police or specialized)


This is more along the lines with what I consider a green dog is.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

DinoBlue said:


> This is interesting. I too have been looking for a green dog for a while, and I have found some really nice dogs, but to me they all have too much training on them to be what I consider a green dog. To me a green dog is a dog that has really not done much else then drive work. Most of what I found had a lot of obedience training and/or foundation work of some kind.


Yeah, that is what I thought too. I thought "green" means grown out, hopefully hips/elbows checked, drives and physique more mature but NOT trained and no "foundation" because that's going to differ based on the intent of the buyer. I started a puppy for a dual purpose K9 person and was specifically told NOT to do anything formal, not even sit or down or building focus. Just take the puppy EVERYWHERE, keep him fit and healthy, get him crate/kennel trained and comfortable traveling. Not sure the dog even knew his name when he was shipped but that's what they wanted. Their idea of obedience and bitework is different than mine.

I saw someone I know advertising a "green" dog but he posted a bunch of video clips of the dog doing obedience and SchH style bitework.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Not that I have any expertise whatsoever, but I think if people WERE breeding and holding back and raising, the companion dog market is huge. What does not fit the needs of work as they grow up could go to pet homes. 

I see almost every breeder site with a "adults available" button, and no one EVER has one available. I think many busy pet homes with 2 working folks who can't do puppy training (but could do brush up and maintain an adult dog) would love to have a well-raised, basic OB trained dog. 

The sites that do sell this type of dog charges very high prices, (think 10k) for a basic OBed adult dog with reasonable temperament. Any green dogs that you sell to police/specialized departments could even double as advertising for the regular folk.

I think that is the best business model for a small scale operation - a 2 pronged approach.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Glad to see "green dog" isn't what I was thinking from the title of this thread. I was afraid people were wanting to make dogs more "energy efficient",


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i haven't researched it but i think in the USA people prefer Blacks, Sables,
> Black&Red, Black&Tan, White, etc. think about it, who wants a green dog
> in the USA?


How about pink? I'll take a pink one!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

marshies said:


> Not that I have any expertise whatsoever, but I think if people WERE breeding and holding back and raising, the companion dog market is huge. What does not fit the needs of work as they grow up could go to pet homes.
> 
> I see almost every breeder site with a "adults available" button, and no one EVER has one available. I think many busy pet homes with 2 working folks who can't do puppy training (but could do brush up and maintain an adult dog) would love to have a well-raised, basic OB trained dog.
> 
> ...


See carmen's description of what the market expects out of a "green" dog and understand why that kind of dog isn't any easier for a companion home to adopt. Either you have a year old, 80 lbs shepherd that hasn't had a lick of training that this new family now has to start training. Or you have a dog that has had a bit of obedience, possibly bite work, washing out of a program and it might still be quite a handful.

The reason that many year old dogs with training cost so much money is that they do take a lot of time. Just think of all the time we pump into our dogs to get them where we need them to be. Anything advanced can almost be considered a full time job IMO. So the person probably needs to be compensated for that full time job. Then again you can't really train a dog for 40 hours a week for a year and then only get $10000 for it if that's your only means of income. So that's why it has to be a larger scale operation, most likely involving dogs that are ready every week or month (clearly not all dogs are bred by the training facility).

And the "adults available" section...usually has to do with washed out dogs. Either because they couldn't do the work, or because they have some sort of conformation fault. And sure, there is a market for those types of dogs, but its not that big. This thread is discussing developing dogs that are consistently being placed in police/military work and also succeeding in sport, not a roll of the dice to see if it works out, spending a year on it, and then selling it for $500 to a companion home.

There are plenty of people willing to pay thousands for a true "green" dog that they can then go on to finish and title. But there aren't that many that are going to pay thousands for a dog that washed out of a breeding program for whatever reason. I'd be very happy to take a year old dog from a breeder and give it a home...but I'd look at it as more of a rescue situation and I would not pay a true puppy price or more for that dog, I'd expect the breeder to just be happy that they don't have to pay for the costs of owning that dog anymore.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

exactly ! totally agree " This thread is discussing developing dogs that are consistently being placed in police/military work and also succeeding in sport, not a roll of the dice to see if it works out, spending a year on it, and then selling it for $500 to a companion home"

You really have to know your dogs, your lines, to reduce or eliminate holding on to the wrong dogs .

Companion interested people generally want a pup.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

martemchik said:


> See carmen's description of what the market expects out of a "green" dog and understand why that kind of dog isn't any easier for a companion home to adopt. Either you have a year old, 80 lbs shepherd that hasn't had a lick of training that this new family now has to start training. Or you have a dog that has had a bit of obedience, possibly bite work, washing out of a program and it might still be quite a handful.
> 
> The reason that many year old dogs with training cost so much money is that they do take a lot of time. Just think of all the time we pump into our dogs to get them where we need them to be. Anything advanced can almost be considered a full time job IMO. So the person probably needs to be compensated for that full time job. Then again you can't really train a dog for 40 hours a week for a year and then only get $10000 for it if that's your only means of income. So that's why it has to be a larger scale operation, most likely involving dogs that are ready every week or month (clearly not all dogs are bred by the training facility).
> 
> ...



I must have phrased my post wrong. I don't think it's ever a good idea to roll the dice and see if it works. The intent of my original post was to encourage your pursuit.

It's great that you have a goal and a specific purpose. I'm trying to respond and address the "does a market exist" question. I'm unfamiliar with the professional market, and how working dogs and brokers work. What I was trying to say was, if you were to go abouts this as a hobby (but still with a purpose, breeding for known traits, researching lines, all the good things good breeders do), I THINK the active companion dog market can take your washed out dogs so that you can cover some of the expenses associated with developing good green dogs. Whatever the "green dogs" standard might be, I'm unfamiliar with, and will leave to you professionals to discuss. 

Surely, even places that develop green dogs have washed out dogs that aren't suitable for the purpose you want to raise them for (in this case, police work or sport). 

What I mean is that dogs that aren't suitable for work for whatever reason can be finished/trained to go to companion homes.

I don't expect to pay $500 for a dog that has been socialized, well-cared for, started CORRECTLY for all purposes, and presumably has solid temperament. I paid $2000 for a puppy who had almost none of the above. I would glady pay 5000-8000 for a dog who washed out of work, but was deemed suitable for active companionship and given training.

If I were in the market, the fact that you raised your dogs to be dogs that serve a purpose is a definite plus. (isn't this what we look for in good breeders? breeding for a purpose) The fact that I got a washed out one (assuming I know why the dog washed out and assuming the dog is still compatible with my needs), I would be willing to PAY MORE for a dog out of your program than random JOE SCHMOE raising dogs to 1. 

I hope I've made myself clear. I don't mean to encourage throwing dogs together and then raising them for a year haphazardly. I mean that if you do pursue this, I think there IS a market for active companions that don't make it to work IF you were willing to put a bit more work into it.

I remmeber when my family bought our first dog, this was back in 1997-98. We spent several thousand, and my mother then worked with the facility that housed my dog to transfer training for a long while before bringing the dog home. That arrangement worked well for my busy family, and when I look for my next dog, it will be under a similar arrangement. I know of other busy professionals who want the same - a solid healthy dog, with basic training who doesn't require the constant supervision of a tiny dog. Because these people GENERALLY have jobs (which is why they were too busy for puppies to begin with) the price point can be set a bit higher.


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