# Prong Collar or something else?



## BenjiM (Sep 10, 2010)

Hey guys, basically I am trying to teach my boy not to lunge at other dogs from excitement and to heel properly at my side. I currently have a martingale but it is not doing it's job and as a result he is pulling through it causing too much force/correction. I've done my research on prongs and don't want to turn this into a prong vs no prong, abuse vs no abuse debate. I am pretty set on getting a prong as he is 10 months and would like to walk with him at ease. I have spoken to my previous postive re-inforcement/clicker trainer and was wondering if anyone can vouch for what he says or argue against it and provide valid reasons for doing so?

He has recommended doing private lessons with the following regarding usage of a prong collar:

"Group classes are beneficial after some foundation work as it's a way to test for reliability while dogs are around, but it's not the best way to start working with reactivity. Positive reinforcement is actually the only way to go with dealing with reactivity, because if you apply aversives whenever a trigger is presented, you may stop the reaction, but you are classically conditioning the dog to start hating the trigger. That means a still dog that doesn't move but is frustrated and dislikes dogs. That is very dangerous to have. He is just excited about dogs now which is not abnormal for an adolescent GSD so let's not make him start hating dogs by nailing him whenever he sees one."

Would you guys agree with what he is saying?


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## Countrymama (May 22, 2011)

Personally I like the prong collar over something like a "gentle leader" but I only use it after trying other things like treats to get their attention. Tessa only had the prong on walks for about a month where as Ziva will likely have it much longer because of her super high drive. The goal is to get the dog to listen to you, not punish them so I would say try the basics of friendly training (treats, toys, praise) for awhile and then try a prong. Just make sure you're using it right so you don't do harm.


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## BenjiM (Sep 10, 2010)

Would anyone agree that using a prong collar conditions them to hate the trigger and ultimately dislike the reason it is being caused? i.e. i see dog, i lunge, i get pinched by collar, therefore i hate all dogs? Is that a fair assumption and has anyone seen a behavioural change for the negative by using a prong?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My dog got ramped up more when I used a prong(she was reactive to people and dogs) so I opted to use a flat for her instead. 
It took away some control(she's 90#), but I used other methods for focus work, redirection(LAT) and over time it helped. 
I then could use a prong again but I now run two lines on her and the prong on the tab line is only when I really feel I need it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

BenjiM said:


> Would anyone agree that using a prong collar conditions them to hate the trigger and ultimately dislike the reason it is being caused? i.e. i see dog, i lunge, i get pinched by collar, therefore i hate all dogs? Is that a fair assumption and has anyone seen a behavioural change for the negative by using a prong?


I don't agree with this. I think there CAN be issues with using a prong to handle a dog that is reacting at other dogs, but generally the issue is that if there is not a real correction given, the light pops or allowing the dog to pull and "self-correct" just nags the dog and actually increases his frustration and arousal.

Also, another issue is that the dog becomes overstimulated before anything is done. The dog needs to be properly corrected and redirected BEFORE he fixates on another dog and starts lunging. If I were to see my dog eyeing another dog and I thought he might escalate to reacting, at that point I would give a correction, not wait until I'm basically fighting with my dog to gain control.

When I walk multiple dogs and am literally outweighed by dog, I always use prongs just for safety. I can walk and control all of my dogs individually but when walking three males, well you just never know and I'd rather be safe than sorry. My dogs see leashes and prongs and come running to go out for a walk. They obviously are not associating the tool with something bad to come.


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## Countrymama (May 22, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't agree with this. I think there CAN be issues with using a prong to handle a dog that is reacting at other dogs, but generally the issue is that if there is not a real correction given, the light pops or allowing the dog to pull and "self-correct" just nags the dog and actually increases his frustration and arousal.
> 
> Also, another issue is that the dog becomes overstimulated before anything is done. The dog needs to be properly corrected and redirected BEFORE he fixates on another dog and starts lunging. If I were to see my dog eyeing another dog and I thought he might escalate to reacting, at that point I would give a correction, not wait until I'm basically fighting with my dog to gain control.
> 
> When I walk multiple dogs and am literally outweighed by dog, I always use prongs just for safety. I can walk and control all of my dogs individually but when walking three males, well you just never know and I'd rather be safe than sorry. My dogs see leashes and prongs and come running to go out for a walk. They obviously are not associating the tool with something bad to come.


I have to agree. I always correct my dogs before the trouble starts but at the same time she wears one just in case. Tessa would see the prong and leash and go crazy knowing that wearing it means a long walk and some ball playing at the end. Ziva is learning the same thing. If she wants to be out and about..she has to wear the collar and act right. It's all about getting her to realize that the collar is a good thing, not punishment but it does pinch when needed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My dogs do not see the prong as punishment at all! 
They stand still as it is put on and are excited when I pull it out. 

It is the correction of the prong that ramps up a reactive dog, because yes they do see the correction as coming from what they are reacting to. 
Best to redirect before it even starts, instead of correct when it comes to reactivity. Timing is everything with a reactive dog.


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## catz (Dec 10, 2010)

Rio practically throws herself into her prong collar, she loves hers! We got our one for the same reason, I couldn't walk her comfortably with a dog in sight as she would lunge, yelp and drag me over to it to have a sniff and possibly a game. It got to a dangerous point when it didn't matter if there was a busy road between us and the dog, she'd drag me out in front of a car to say hi. Now we have the prong she walks beside me fantastically, no lunging and will great a dog happily when I say she can. It hasn't dampened her love for meet and greets


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## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm sticking with my halter backed up with a martingail.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Collars are tools and you need to learn how to use them.

A prong is wrong in the hands of someone who hasn't been taught how to fit it and use it. 

Same for e-collar or any other training device.

Personally I'd rather see a dog on a prong when handler knows how to give quick corrections than see a dog pulling and choking on a flat collar.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I use all 3 on one of my dogs: Martingale Prong and Halti(head collar like the Gentle Leader) Here's why:
First of all she is very strong and very prey driven. She will pull with only a Martingale, but I use that for a backup in case the prong comes apart. The Halti, I use to maintain better control of her nose/mouth. She will nip at and/or try to lunge at joggers, bikes, roller skates, anything moving fast past us. The nose collar has given me the control I need to prevent her from nipping etc. 

Since I started using the Halti I have seen a major improvement and am amazed. I have owned the head collar for years, but just recently decided to try it on her. The very first time I took her to home depot, the Halti somehow came disconnected from the prong, and it turned out I was walking her with only the Halti hooked to the leash. She was an angel! Did not try to nip at anyone, stayed right by my side, perfectly well behaved!

Eventually I will stop using the Halti, but we have a long way to go. The prong, we will probably always use when going on walks, and into public places. The Martingale is always attached to the Prong for the reason stated above. 

With my boy one time, at the park, his prong came apart and I had no other collar on him at the time. Luckily he never knew it was off cause it got stuck in his long furry coat.


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## BenjiM (Sep 10, 2010)

Did their behaviour ever change towards other dogs though either on or off leash? 

Just for arguments sake would it be possible that the dog associates the collar with a great long walk, but still may associate a pinching when seeing other dogs due to lunging, therefore a negative association to seeing other dogs?


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## Overactor (Apr 14, 2011)

I started using a prong with Adel because she always pulled on choke and flat collars. Its not only dogs in our instance. Kids, adults, bikes, lawn mowers she wants to play with everything. When I switched to a prong I noticed an imediate 180. She walks greata nd even though she is interested in playing with everything in sight she walks great and refrains from charging off. If someone else walks up to greet she sits or lays for kids and doesnt jump like she does on her harness ect. I would agree that the prong works because she has been corrected and didnt like it. But I disagree about the dog hating everything because of it. When i grab her prong she gets excited because she knows it time to go for a ride or a walk.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

My female use to be extremely dog-aggressive and we used the corrections of the prong collar on walks in addition to private training lessons. That was 2.5 years ago and she is not dog-aggressive anymore. She didn't develop a negative association between the prong and other dogs. We are able to walk her with or without her prong and she is respectful to other dogs. I think it all depends on the dog as well as proper use of the collar.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

The key is teaching your dog get the focus back to *YOU *no matter what collar you are using. I have been using a prong for almost 20 years, my dogs do not have any negative association with it at all. I watch for my dogs to make a move and before they do I prefer to give a little tug or two toward me like "hey pay attention, look here". My dogs do not give me any reason to yank them harshly with the prong on. My 2 older dogs can be reactive I have found that prevention is key and what I do before my dog is set off. I used to avoid situations when I had mulitple dogs out together, mostly by going out at the crack of dawn. Now I work each one individually, go out at any time I want and actually look for encounters that I can work on thier own issues. 
There are a lot of little things you have to add to your regimen aside from the collar you use. Of course if you just put a prong collar on your dog and yank and yank and yank every time he/she does something theres your negative association. Your the key to the association your dog will have with a prong collar.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

BenjiM said:


> Hey guys, basically I am trying to teach my boy not to lunge at other dogs from excitement and to heel properly at my side. I currently have a martingale but it is not doing it's job and as a result he is pulling through it causing too much force/correction. I've done my research on prongs and don't want to turn this into a prong vs no prong, abuse vs no abuse debate. I am pretty set on getting a prong as he is 10 months and would like to walk with him at ease. I have spoken to my previous postive re-inforcement/clicker trainer and was wondering if anyone can vouch for what he says or argue against it and provide valid reasons for doing so?
> 
> He has recommended doing private lessons with the following regarding usage of a prong collar:
> 
> ...


I disagree. Once the dog has blinders on the prong (or any other tool) is not going to work effectively. The key is knowing your dog, and correcting the behavior just before it starts... when the dog is thinking "you know what, I think I really want to lunch at that dog".. that is when the correction must be applied, not after hackles are already up, teeth are shown, or he's already lunging.


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## BenjiM (Sep 10, 2010)

fuzzybunny said:


> My female use to be extremely dog-aggressive and we used the corrections of the prong collar on walks in addition to private training lessons. That was 2.5 years ago and she is not dog-aggressive anymore. She didn't develop a negative association between the prong and other dogs. We are able to walk her with or without her prong and she is respectful to other dogs. I think it all depends on the dog as well as proper use of the collar.


Do you still use the prong? And at the time did your trainer endorse the use of it?


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## BenjiM (Sep 10, 2010)

BenjiM said:


> He has recommended doing private lessons with the following regarding usage of a prong collar:
> 
> "Group classes are beneficial after some foundation work as it's a way to test for reliability while dogs are around, but it's not the best way to start working with reactivity. Positive reinforcement is actually the only way to go with dealing with reactivity, because if you apply aversives whenever a trigger is presented, you may stop the reaction, but you are classically conditioning the dog to start hating the trigger. That means a still dog that doesn't move but is frustrated and dislikes dogs. That is very dangerous to have. He is just excited about dogs now which is not abnormal for an adolescent GSD so let's not make him start hating dogs by nailing him whenever he sees one."
> 
> Would you guys agree with what he is saying?


^ just realized what i said is a bit confusing and i can't go back and edit. I meant that he is doing private training with clicker/postive and is strongly against prong collars for the reasons above.

However, from what I'm reading from you guys and actual experience I think I may have to disagree with him as well.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

BenjiM said:


> Do you still use the prong? And at the time did your trainer endorse the use of it?


Our private trainer did endorse the use of it. I no longer use it because I don't have a need to use it anymore. The only time I would use it now would be if we were doing something out of the ordinary like visiting a location that had a lot of wild life (ex. a farm) because she has a very high prey drive so she would require a firmer correction from me then what a flat buckle collar will provide. We don't need it though in everyday life. She's fine with other dogs now and likes cats.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> I disagree. Once the dog has blinders on the prong (or any other tool) is not going to work effectively. The key is knowing your dog, and correcting the behavior just before it starts... when the dog is thinking "you know what, I think I really want to lunch at that dog".. that is when the correction must be applied, not after hackles are already up, teeth are shown, or he's already lunging.


I disagree.  They key is to redirect before the behavior starts and correct after. The few dog reactive (one aggressive) fosters that I have had would actually be set off by a correction. I used to do what you are suggesting and found out rather quickly that it actually caused (and worsened) the reaction.

If I just paid attention to the body language of the dog and redirected BEFORE he reacted, things were ok. This included watching his body tense and him focusing and either letting him watch the dog pass by or calling his name nicely and getting him to focus on me. If I corrected him while he was staring and stiff but had not made a move, then he exploded. If I corrected him AFTER he started barking, then he would stop and then refocus on me. It was clear to him what the correction was for (his behavior). Correcting them for thinking about it just makes them associate corrections with looking at dogs.

We also had tremendous success with the Look at That (LAT) game outlined in the book Control Unleashed. We would stay below threshold (where he wouldn't react) and I would encourage him to look at other dogs and then look back at me by calling his name nice and calmly. He got a treat every time he looked at other dogs and didn't react but instead checked in with me.

This dog went from nearly not getting into a foster home because the resident dogs wouldn't put up with his antics to being able to walk through a crowded dog event with no issues in just a few months. He was even used as the friendly test dog for the CGC.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I completely agree with you Jamie, this has been stated over and over in the FA threads....LAT works!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> I disagree.  They key is to redirect before the behavior starts and correct after. The few dog reactive (one aggressive) fosters that I have had would actually be set off by a correction. I used to do what you are suggesting and found out rather quickly that it actually caused (and worsened) the reaction.
> 
> If I just paid attention to the body language of the dog and redirected BEFORE he reacted, things were ok. This included watching his body tense and him focusing and either letting him watch the dog pass by or calling his name nicely and getting him to focus on me. If I corrected him while he was staring and stiff but had not made a move, then he exploded. If I corrected him AFTER he started barking, then he would stop and then refocus on me. It was clear to him what the correction was for (his behavior). Correcting them for thinking about it just makes them associate corrections with looking at dogs.
> 
> ...


I disagree that you are doing anything all that different from what I'm doing  What I am doing IS redirecting. It has worked great for my female. The second she starts paying attention to a dog and I know what her reaction will be, she gets lite correction on the prong and she then looks at me and finds something else to do other than hunt for the dog. The secret is catching it before its past that particular dogs threshold. I can get my female before she thinks the other dog caused the stimulation. We passed the BH last weekend with her, and that involved many dogs walking very close by her both with and without my presence. Not so much as a growl, hackle, whine, or interest. A year ago she would have been all cujo.


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## Brian84 (Feb 13, 2010)

I highly reccommend the prong collar. Redirection did not work with my dog. My gf refused to use it and the problems were getting worse. I finally put it on my neck and gave the end of the leash to my dog and let her pull me around the room to prove it didn't hurt. The dog does not have a fear of things when she is corrected, she just knows that the behavior that she just did is unacceptable.


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## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

zyppi said:


> Collars are tools and you need to learn how to use them.
> 
> A prong is wrong in the hands of someone who hasn't been taught how to fit it and use it.
> 
> ...


 i have had so much more pleasure walking and working working with my dog since i quit using a coller at all for any kind of correction and just use it for a safty net...


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