# What have they done?



## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

Show German shepherd gait in action Video


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

That is wrong on so many levels. Until the judges stop giving ribbons for this it will never stop. I do not understand why people feel the need to breed dogs into something they are not.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

It looks like they are handicapped.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

ugh I hate that look, so wrong...isn't it called stacking? or is that something else?


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

That is really awful. They do, indeed, looked handicapped - as if they got hit by a car and that's the best they could recover.


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## lizzyjo (Jan 6, 2011)

This saddens me in so many levels. The video of the aspca is heartbreaking, i couldnt watch it all.


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## iglinska1 (May 10, 2010)

Half dog half FROG!? Madness


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

I wonder, does anyone actually think that is attractive in a GSD? I certainly don't find anything remotely attractive, I find it disturbing and disgusting.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Oh my God that is sickening... I could not finish watching it, after the first GSD trotted. I'm utterly disturbed, what a heartbreaking sight that is. I saw that special from the UK about dogs and how we've changed them over the years, when I see those before and afters, it makes me cringe in disgust. They've ruined them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

They did a great job of showcasing the "loosest" dogs and worst handling they could find. Not a single dog on that video is actually gaiting.


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

When I was a small child I grew up with my father's police dog Patton (WGSD) and I was used to the straight back and strong legs. After he passed, I was only exposed to GSD's that had the sloped back through friends and relatives. (Dad swore off GSD's after Patton died) I have always loved GSD's but when I started looking for a dog of my own, I ruled out the breed because of their hip issues. It wasn't until I met my Fiance and his dog Angus, that I knew that GSD's could have straight backs and strong hind legs. I began researching the breed once more and now have Freyja sleeping at my feet. 

GSD's aren't the only breed that have suffered at the hands of the show ring. I grew up with collies and love the breed, but honestly the brains have been bred right out of the dog. The show standard calls for an elongated narrow head, which means that the brain capacity has to diminish to fit the "breed standard". On top of that you have to contend with CEA (Collie Eye Anomaly) and the fact that their coats are desired to be so long that it creates issues for the dog. I got interested in the American Working Farm Collie Association, but I fear that the breed has become so damaged they may never return. My Mother's current collie, while he is sweet, is the dumbest dog I have ever met, *barely* surpassing my sister's pedigree collie who's parents were both nationally ranked. He can't figure out how to get to the porch when the snow is deep, runs into screen doors, and has even run into a wall. The breed has effectively been destroyed. Yes you may find a few lines that are still decent, but they are few and far between. I look at the dogs of Albert Payson Terhune (Sunnybank Collies, home of Lad) and compare them to today's collies. Their heads are completely different. 

If you really want a difference from what a dog was, to what it is today, look at the Bulldog or the Caviler King Charles Spaniel, major issues from the breeding.

I personally refused to register Freyja with the AKC. I despise what the "breed standard" has done to a variety of dogs, and therefore refuse to have any affiliation with the organization.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Great post, but it falls on deaf ears to those that crave trophies, status and ego!!


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

Liesje said:


> They did a great job of showcasing the "loosest" dogs and worst handling they could find. Not a single dog on that video is actually gaiting.


Agreed , My first thought was "these dogs are not even trotting" , in my opinion not a fair representation of the population.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The video was done to get a reaction and not to be totally factual. It has succeeded in its purpose.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Caitydid255 said:


> When I was a small child I grew up with my father's police dog Patton (WGSD) and I was used to the straight back and strong legs. After he passed, I was only exposed to GSD's that had the sloped back through friends and relatives. (Dad swore off GSD's after Patton died) I have always loved GSD's but when I started looking for a dog of my own, I ruled out the breed because of their hip issues. It wasn't until I met my Fiance and his dog Angus, that I knew that GSD's could have straight backs and strong hind legs. I began researching the breed once more and now have Freyja sleeping at my feet.
> 
> GSD's aren't the only breed that have suffered at the hands of the show ring. I grew up with collies and love the breed, but honestly the brains have been bred right out of the dog. The show standard calls for an elongated narrow head, which means that the brain capacity has to diminish to fit the "breed standard". On top of that you have to contend with CEA (Collie Eye Anomaly) and the fact that their coats are desired to be so long that it creates issues for the dog. I got interested in the American Working Farm Collie Association, but I fear that the breed has become so damaged they may never return. My Mother's current collie, while he is sweet, is the dumbest dog I have ever met, *barely* surpassing my sister's pedigree collie who's parents were both nationally ranked. He can't figure out how to get to the porch when the snow is deep, runs into screen doors, and has even run into a wall. The breed has effectively been destroyed. Yes you may find a few lines that are still decent, but they are few and far between. I look at the dogs ofAlbert Payson Terhune (Sunnybank Collies, home of Lad) and compare them to today's collies. Their heads are completely different.
> 
> ...


Did you know that the AKC GSD standard calls for a straight back? Maybe you might want to review the standard before you "refuse to have any affiliation with the organization"?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> They did a great job of showcasing the "loosest" dogs and worst handling they could find. Not a single dog on that video is actually gaiting.


Bingo. There are good and bad dogs there in every line, but the PDE show is propaganda, and they took some of THE WORST examples that they could find, showed them, and did not show good dogs.

This is NOT to say that breeding in terms of health doesn't need to be improved (I think the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is truly the worst off in terms of health right now). It does. But when they show dogs that aren't even gaiting and the handling is terrible, there's no way you get a real picture of anything.


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## Linzi (Mar 23, 2010)

The kennel club released a statement about the maker's of this programme.
Here is the link.Statement about the forthcoming BBC programme ‘Pedigree Dogs Exposed’ – BBC1, Tuesday 19th August, 9pm - The Kennel Club

I must admit, the first dog from a show in Manchester,did cause a lot of controversy,However the Shepherd's at the end where the were the famous Zamp vom Thermodos and Ice vom Steinhauerberg.I have met both these dog's so know they not as portrayed in the video.I have attached link's to both,now see if they look like frog's.Ice is in the show stance,i couldn't find one of him standing at ease
CHAMPION (UK) Ice vom Steinhauerberg - German shepherd dog

Zamp v Thermodos @ "Crufts" 2008 in Birmingham, England - German shepherd dog
Linzi


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Did you know that the AKC GSD standard calls for a straight back? Maybe you might want to review the standard before you "refuse to have any affiliation with the organization"?


then why are they awarding championships and points to roached or extremely slanted dogs?When you state you have a current american show gsd you know that you will not see a dog with a straight back and gently sloping lines.You will indeed see extremes.When breeding jepordizes health then yes you have created something that should not be.


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## ZebsMommy (Dec 4, 2010)

Makes me sad to see that.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

tierra nuestra said:


> then why are they awarding championships and points to roached or extremely slanted dogs?When you state you have a current american show gsd you know that you will not see a dog with a straight back and gently sloping lines.You will indeed see extremes.When breeding jepordizes health then yes you have created something that should not be.


Can you point out a recent AKC champion with a roached back? I can't think of any.

What exactly is a "extremely slanted dogs"?

And also can you explain what you mean by "gently sloping lines" - that expression is a puzzle as well.

You do realize that when you look at a dog in a show stance with one leg pulled back that the back will appear to be slanting from front to back even when the dog is correct when gaiting, don't you?

And finally, what are you referring to by the following?

*"When breeding jepordizes health then yes you have created something that should not be."*


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

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This is a current American show line GSD, in fact, it is Niko's Sire's brother. I don't see anything in him like that video. Now, I am not well-informed in ASL other than what I know from speaking to Niko's breeder, but this dog looks good to me.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

On a personal note...this really ticks me off. My AKC reg. Shepherd is missing toes off of his rear paw. His mother ate them while chewing the ambilical cord. My vet thinks she did tendon damage as well. Because he 'limps' he can not participate in any AKC sanctioned shows. None. I can honestly say that he gaits with FAR LESS swivel of his hind legs then shown on video - and he compensates for the instability of his 'handicapped' leg with his good leg. 

While I do realize that this is one video - it still sets a burr under my blanket.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

_Is the Shepherd's stifle supposed to be 1 inch from the ground? Is the second thigh supposed to be soooooo long? Is the Dobermann poker straight front, swan neck and excessive ski slope back standard for the Shepherd?. _
_THIS IS WHAT COMES UP WHEN YOU PUT IN CANADAIN/AMERICAN CHAMPION POINTED GERMAN SHEPHERDS ON BING AND GOOGLE.They are becoming mainstream.This is what you see when you go to an AKC/CKC show._
_AS FOR HEALTH,IT SEEMS SELF EXPLANATORY TO ME.I mean can you truly deny that so many shepherds are inherently plastered with so many genetic defects that can be solved by good breeding practices???In order to get such extreme ideals in traits such as over angulation,the stifle literally becoming a pad for the foot,you look at how breeders are able to produce the results they want.How can they exagerate such traits.How can they single out certain traits and elaborate?You start inbreeding or line breeding.Over and over, getting way too close to what anyone would deem ok in any practice.unless you think its ok to breed mother to son,father to daughter,half brother to half sister ,grandfather to grandaughter ect._
_As for the roach,that is in seiger rings but still not acceptable either._
_As for the sloping lines,(the breed standard)that's where breeders have interpreted this in their own way and not for the better.And yes I know what happens when you stack but when the dogs hocks still sweep the ground while in a relaxed stand?When it looks like they should be in water because they paddle so much,Then what?_


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> Login | Facebook
> 
> This is a current American show line GSD, in fact, it is Niko's Sire's brother. I don't see anything in him like that video. Now, I am not well-informed in ASL other than what I know from speaking to Niko's breeder, but this dog looks good to me.


What is the true purpose to the gait?what does it actually accomplish for the dog?The shepherd is a herding dog,how does such an exagerated gait help with herding?Or is this a trait that has been over bred into them because the breeder deems it in style or flashy or just interpreting the standard in their own odd way?The roach in sieger dogs has been created to influence the gait.Supposedly it helps with the forward action???Really,I don't care what its supposed to influence rather than my initial thought on how they've ruined a good breed.I know some will be indignant about what I post but thats what I see with eyes wide open and I guess more of an unbiased view as I do not breed/show.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Lilie said:


> On a personal note...this really ticks me off. My AKC reg. Shepherd is missing toes off of his rear paw. His mother ate them while chewing the ambilical cord. My vet thinks she did tendon damage as well. Because he 'limps' he can not participate in any AKC sanctioned shows. None. I can honestly say that he gaits with FAR LESS swivel of his hind legs then shown on video - and he compensates for the instability of his 'handicapped' leg with his good leg.
> 
> While I do realize that this is one video - it still sets a burr under my blanket.


This is not genetic,he cannot pass this condition on.He compensates fine with his disability but you would show up with a dog some would consider unwhole so best not to let him in and mess with the way things are done.But they will champion point a dog that has a severe genetic flaw ,a flaw that will cripple,that will be passed down to future off spring because he was not tested.actually,even if he was diagnosed they would still look that over and let him walk away with best in group.I don't see how limping because of missing toes and hobbling on their stifles is any different.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> The video was done to get a reaction and not to be totally factual. It has succeeded in its purpose.


Exactly, look how many people in this thread are crying and refusing to watch. 

Now I'm not defending the show dogs and show breeders, but not all of them are bad. They took footage of the WORST handling and the WORST movements and they are not even gaiting, not a single dog in that video gaits even TWO steps. If I string up my dog and jerk him this way and that while he's pulling to go somewhere else he's probably going to look equally crappy.

That's like making a video about how Schutzhund is bad and only taking clips of the most terrible training and the worst dogs failing to engage and running off the field.

At least in the video for half a second they showed a working line dog and mentioned that the working lines have much of the same structure and temperament as they always have.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Now I'm not defending the show dogs and show breeders, but not all of them are bad.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Liesje said:


> They did a great job of showcasing the "loosest" dogs and worst handling they could find. Not a single dog on that video is actually gaiting.


Agreed... definitely some editing with a purpose done here. 

There are some very beautiful show lines dogs still out there. A certain dog named Nikon definitely comes to mind.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Can you point out a recent AKC champion with a roached back? I can't think of any.
> 
> What exactly is a "extremely slanted dogs"?
> 
> ...


*Summary​*It should never be forgotten that the ideal Shepherd is a working animal
which must have an incorruptible character combined with body and gait
suitable for the arduous work which constitutes its primary purpose. All
its qualities should be weighed in respect to their contribution to such
work, and while no compromise should be permitted with regard to its
working potentiality, the dog must nevertheless possess a high degree of​beauty and nobility.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> He compensates fine with his disability but you would show up with a dog some would consider unwhole so best not to let him in and mess with the way things are done


That has NOTHING to do with it. They are not allowed to enter because they are injured (permanently). Lame dogs are excused from ALL arenas, including conformation. I have seen dogs excused due to limping.



> But they will champion point a dog that has a severe genetic flaw ,a flaw that will cripple,that will be passed down to future off spring because he was not tested.


Yes, they will, because they are judging a dog's *structure* NOT his genetics. You CANNOT judge something you CAN'T see and DON'T know is there. And not everything is able to be tested for.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lilie said:


> On a personal note...this really ticks me off. My AKC reg. Shepherd is missing toes off of his rear paw. His mother ate them while chewing the ambilical cord. My vet thinks she did tendon damage as well. Because he 'limps' he can not participate in any AKC sanctioned shows. None. I can honestly say that he gaits with FAR LESS swivel of his hind legs then shown on video - and he compensates for the instability of his 'handicapped' leg with his good leg.
> 
> While I do realize that this is one video - it still sets a burr under my blanket.


If your dog limps, why would you want to show him in conformation shows? How would you expect the judge to judge his gaiting?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Generally any dog whose appearance has been altered cannot be shown.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

tierra nuestra said:


> *Summary​*
> ​​It should never be forgotten that the ideal Shepherd is a working animal
> which must have an incorruptible character combined with body and gait
> suitable for the arduous work which constitutes its primary purpose. All
> ...


Great Summary! 

Did you write it? Or maybe just copied it from somewhere?

I did notice however that you didn't answer any of my questions. 

Maybe you could reread my post and then try to answer?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

plagiarized..over and over and over again


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> What is the true purpose to the gait?what does it actually accomplish for the dog?The shepherd is a herding dog,how does such an exagerated gait help with herding?Or is this a trait that has been over bred into them because the breeder deems it in style or flashy or just interpreting the standard in their own odd way?The roach in sieger dogs has been created to influence the gait.Supposedly it helps with the forward action???Really,I don't care what its supposed to influence rather than my initial thought on how they've ruined a good breed.I know some will be indignant about what I post but thats what I see with eyes wide open and I guess more of an unbiased view as I do not breed/show.


I can't think of anything the gait actually accomplishes for the dog - it only equates to ribbons for the breeder so they can charge more for their puppies. 



Caitydid255 said:


> I despise what the "breed standard" has done to a variety of dogs, and therefore refuse to have any affiliation with the organization.
> [/COLOR][/FONT]


The AKC is in this for one reason and it's not for the betterment of the breed it's for the $$$$$. 


They are giving ribbons and titles to some dogs that are bred to the extreme standard of the breed. 

Are all AKC American showline dogs this way? No, of course not. There are some beautiful examples of show dogs. 

However, some breeders like to breed them this way which is not bettering the breed. 

I highly doubt very many American showling GSD's could go out and do K9 work or other working dog activities. Of course, this doesn't make a grain of sense since the dog was bred to be a working dog and if a dog can do well in the show ring should also be able to do well in another area of "work". 

The AKC only likes dogs that are to the breed standard and can perform in the show ring. They don't need those dogs to go do ScH work or be a K9. The breeders of the over-exaggerated show ring shepherds are breeding for titles and money.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

The gait or trot is important to the GSD breed because it conserves energy. It allows the dog to move around a herd of sheep both quickly and efficiently. It's equivalent to the a human jogging.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

codmaster said:


> If your dog limps, why would you want to show him in conformation shows? How would you expect the judge to judge his gaiting?


And this is why show breeders are ruining the breed.

If this dog was in the hands of a show breeder they would neuter it and never pass it's genes. I mean you can't even see the gait.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

This is the summary of the breed standard.not my summary nor was i trying to pass it off as mine.just the summary shows exactly what alot of show breeders have not followed in their breeding program.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

rvadog said:


> And this is why show breeders are ruining the breed.
> 
> If this dog was in the hands of a show breeder they would neuter it and never pass it's genes. I mean you can't even see the gait.
> 
> YouTube - U'VITO


BRAVO.My point exactly but done with so much more heart with this dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

rvadog said:


> And this is why show breeders are ruining the breed.
> If this dog was in the hands of a show breeder they would neuter it and never pass it's genes. I mean you can't even see the gait.YouTube - U'VITO


You got me here, I have no clue what you talking about! 

Is the missing leg hereditay or was it an accident? If it was hereditary (i.e. birth defect - would you suggest that the dog would be a great breeding dog? If it was an accident why would you not want to breed the dog?

Does the dog exhibit great conformation or is his great value that he can bite a sleeve on a training helper? is that enough to make the dog a prime breeding candidate in your opinion?

Might want to answer at least a couple of questions (unless you can't!)!!! 

In which case i don't blame you and see why you feel it is best to keep simply expressing your own opinion.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

rvadog said:


> The gait or trot is important to the GSD breed because it conserves energy. It allows the dog to move around a herd of sheep both quickly and efficiently. It's equivalent to the a human jogging.


the only problem with todays show german shepherds doing their exagerated trot is that it would be absolutely ridiculous for the dog to be doing this out with real sheep.If you look at real herding dogs right now,true everyday working dogs they do not move as if they are saluting hitler.They are agile and quick and have the ability to hold their flock.Be able to push and turn back,down,stay and back up many many times in a working day.So hips and elbows will have alot of stress put on them every day.Watch a border collie work sheep or a kelpie and a whole different picture is presented.The old gsd was capable but I have doubts about many modern present day gsd's.Yes you have the odd few now but that is sad as the breed was defined and designed for herding.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

My point is that a show breeder will without hesitation breed two beautiful dogs that can't work worth ****. As long as they have a good head shape or a great topline.

A working breeder on the other hand would never breed those two dogs. They breed the best working dogs to the best working dogs and what do you know? The still get GSD looking dogs but they are actually capable of work.

There is a reason why there is an obvious difference between between SL and WL. 

WL breeders have for many generations bred for working ability. And after several generations of breeding for working ability instead of shows they still conform to a type. You don't have a bunch of mongrel looking working dogs. You have GSD's that work.

SL breeders have for many generations bred for type. After several generations of breeding for type with little to no afterthought to working ability they are beautiful dogs that are so far below the level WL GSD's they might as well be Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. 

It makes absolutely no sense, *no sense* to breed a working breed for show. What ever happened to "form follows function"? What the **** is the point of having a dog that meets the standard if it is because of meeting the standard then unable to do the work that it was created for? Stupidity at the max.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Great Summary!
> 
> Did you write it? Or maybe just copied it from somewhere?
> 
> ...


I believe I did just that.
_Is the Shepherd's stifle supposed to be 1 inch from the ground? Is the second thigh supposed to be soooooo long? Is the Dobermann poker straight front, swan neck and excessive ski slope back standard for the Shepherd?. _
_THIS IS WHAT COMES UP WHEN YOU PUT IN CANADAIN/AMERICAN CHAMPION POINTED GERMAN SHEPHERDS ON BING AND GOOGLE.They are becoming mainstream.This is what you see when you go to an AKC/CKC show._
_AS FOR HEALTH,IT SEEMS SELF EXPLANATORY TO ME.I mean can you truly deny that so many shepherds are inherently plastered with so many genetic defects that can be solved by good breeding practices???In order to get such extreme ideals in traits such as over angulation,the stifle literally becoming a pad for the foot,you look at how breeders are able to produce the results they want.How can they exagerate such traits.How can they single out certain traits and elaborate?You start inbreeding or line breeding.Over and over, getting way too close to what anyone would deem ok in any practice.unless you think its ok to breed mother to son,father to daughter,half brother to half sister ,grandfather to grandaughter ect._
_As for the roach,that is in seiger rings but still not acceptable either._
_As for the sloping lines,(the breed standard)that's where breeders have interpreted this in their own way and not for the better.And yes I know what happens when you stack but when the dogs hocks still sweep the ground while in a relaxed stand?When it looks like they should be in water because they paddle so much,Then what?_ 

oh,I meant gradually sloping.as it states in the standard or course.sorry.These dogs below are champion pointed/titles.I don't think I have to define the term excessive slant and unless you are visually handicapped I CAN NOT SEE HOW ANYONE WOULD DESCRIBE THESE TYPES AS GRADUALLY SLOPING AND LEVEL BACK.

Attached Thumbnails


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

rvadog said:


> My point is that a show breeder will without hesitation breed two beautiful dogs that can't work worth ****. As long as they have a good head shape or a great topline.
> 
> A working breeder on the other hand would never breed those two dogs. They breed the best working dogs to the best working dogs and what do you know? The still get GSD looking dogs but they are actually capable of work.
> 
> ...


I agree whole heartedly up until you said show line are beautiful.Don't take me wrong,I love gsd's but the way they were supposed to be.Not some designer whim and what they think may look flashy at a certain time.I do not see severely inbreed animals as a work of art or genetic flaws and mutations as masterpieces.I would love to see these show breeders actually take their dogs out and run a flock of lets say 300 sheep(being gentle here) for 2 weeks straight and actually do what they were meant for.Not just an hour here or there and go home.As a real working farm and sheep breeder,I would like to see how their "healthy hips and great gawking gait turns out results.Now the working gsd,they are definately more realistic when it comes to working but not working sheep or livestock.With their prey drive hyped up you'd have a blood bath.I have personally and unfortunately seen what a working line shepherd has done to sheep when they accidently got out,not once but several times.They've lost the actually herding instinct in most cases and just go straight to chasing and chasing till the sheep drop from exhaustion in the best case scenario and in the worst case,myself and others slitting sheeps throats because they tore their udders off and some ewes were tripping over their own intestines,ears and throats ripped open ect.They will not just target one ewe or lamb but 30 or 40 sheep.You cannot imagine the horror of walking out to the pasture and first see a small chunk of wool and then many more and as you walk over the crest of the hill you just know what you are going to see.These were neighbours dogs in all 3 cases.Different dogs too.
So yes,I take the this subject very seriously and very personally about ruining good dogs.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Generally any dog whose appearance has been altered cannot be shown.


then what about tacking eyes in the bully type breeds because their lower lids droop to the point that they have to be surgically stapled?WHAT ABOUT TAIL DOCKING AND EAR CROPPING?Kinda contradictory isn't it?yet a dog with an accidental mishap cannot be shown.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> plagiarized..over and over and over again


UHMMMM.....IT WOULD BE PLIAGARISM IF I TRIED TO STATE THAT IT WAS MY OWN.UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, I am not claiming this as my own summary.This is the ckc standard for gsd's and posted it to make my pointabout changing the breed to suit the breeders individual ideals and not having a clue as to what will actually work in the real world.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DO A GOOGLE SEARCH BEFORE YOU FREAK OUT. UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, I NEVER SAID you claimed it as your own summary. It's been plagiarized over and over and over. Hard to tell where the original source came from. I don't really care what you post or why. You just like to argue about everything. Geesh..freaking breathe people...or get some prozac.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are breeders that are breeding today with that plagarized breed summary as their blueprint.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

rvadog said:


> My point is that a show breeder will without hesitation breed two beautiful dogs that can't work worth ****. As long as they have a good head shape or a great topline.
> 
> A working breeder on the other hand would never breed those two dogs. They breed the best working dogs to the best working dogs and what do you know? The still get GSD looking dogs but they are actually capable of work.
> 
> ...


So ALL working breeders are great breeders only concerned with the good of the breed and nottheir pocketbooks.

Just out of curiosity,how did they ALL get to be such great breeders?

I guess they also ALL are concerned with the Total GSD - including in their great breeding the conformation of the dogs to be bred also, right?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Oh yea, and ALL show breeders are terrible?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I would love to see these show breeders actually take their dogs out and run a flock of lets say 300 sheep(being gentle here) for 2 weeks straight and actually do what they were meant for.Not just an hour here or there and go home.


And how do you propose we DO this when Farmland is not as abundant as it used to be, and not everybody is a farmer?

I'm currently driving *THREE HOURS ONE WAY* so my bitch can work sheep. Is it a lot of sheep? No. But I don't know a lot of people that are Shepherds for a living. Just finding a trainer that would work with my GSDs was hard! They don't want much beyond BC's, Aussies, or ACD's. They don't want the tending dogs, they want to work the driving dogs.



> WHAT ABOUT TAIL DOCKING AND EAR CROPPING?Kinda contradictory isn't it?


Not when that's what the breed has had done to it for years and years and years. Docking and cropping has always been in breeds like the Rottie, Dobe, an GSP.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BTW, what is the matter wih Chessies?


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> DO A GOOGLE SEARCH BEFORE YOU FREAK OUT. UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, I NEVER SAID you claimed it as your own summary. It's been plagiarized over and over and over. Hard to tell where the original source came from. I don't really care what you post or why. You just like to argue about everything. Geesh..freaking breathe people...or get some prozac.


actually i'm quite calm.I was just thinking why you like to start things with me?you were the one that came up with the plagiarism thing.And google search for what?As for argueing,I don't really think that applies either.You seem to have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to me.Why oh I don't know.You have said rude and offensive things to my posts before for no other reason as to you did not like the cap locks and I believe called it bull**** .I think you might need to relax and stop seeing things in posts where there is none.remember you stated plagiarism which is generally offensive to most people so I responded.oh I ALMOST FORGOT,DIDN'T YOU WANT TO BLOCK ME TOO BECAUSE MY KEYBOARD WAS BROKEN AND I HAD TO USE CAPS?JUST A GENTLE REMINDER WHO IS OVEREACTING.SMILE AND DEEP BREATH.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Hey, *rvadog, how about we try something different - take some of your wl puppies from the great breeders and give them to the seeing eye trainers, and lets see how they do there?*

*That would be real interesting for SOME (by no means all as some would do great!) of the wl breeders dogs that I have run across.*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

tierra nuestra said:


> the only problem with todays show german shepherds doing their exagerated trot is that it would be absolutely ridiculous for the dog to be doing this out with real sheep.If you look at real herding dogs right now,true everyday working dogs they do not move as if they are saluting hitler.They are agile and quick and have the ability to hold their flock.Be able to push and turn back,down,stay and back up many many times in a working day.So hips and elbows will have alot of stress put on them every day.Watch a border collie work sheep or a kelpie and a whole different picture is presented.The old gsd was capable but I have doubts about many modern present day gsd's.Yes you have the odd few now but that is sad as the breed was defined and designed for herding.


Do you realize that BC's are shown in conformation shows also? 

And that GSD's and BC's are totally different herding dogs?

Wonder if there is such an acrimonious division between conformation and working folks in that breed? There is in a lot of breeds.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

codmaster - I'll bet there is. My friend, who used to breed sheltie's, has shown a lot in conformation and we were just talking about the show vs working in that breed. I would say that it is the same in most working breeds. It's very unfortunate for the dogs.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

codmaster said:


> do you realize that bc's are shown in conformation shows also?
> 
> And that gsd's and bc's are totally different herding dogs?
> 
> Wonder if there is such an acrimonious division between conformation and working folks in that breed? There is in a lot of breeds.


its a good question about bc.we used a showline male (ted) and a showline bitch (heira) and they were used daily and they had all instinct in tact and conformation was decidedly hardy and they were able to do what was required of them.we also had non showline bc and they really were not much different.bear was non papered run of the mill type but he was beautiful and smart.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

And for the people buying the puppies!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Wonder if there is such an acrimonious division between conformation and working folks in that breed?


It is as bad if not WORSE in Border Collies


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

tierra nuestra said:


> UHMMMM.....IT WOULD BE PLIAGARISM IF I TRIED TO STATE THAT IT WAS MY OWN.UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, I am not claiming this as my own summary.This is the ckc standard for gsd's and posted it to make my pointabout changing the breed to suit the breeders individual ideals and not having a clue as to what will actually work in the real world.


According to the Webster's dictionary it's plagiarism if you don't give credit to the author (in this case to the CKC). By not doing so you are implying that it's your original thought, you didn't credit the author/CKC, so it appears that you were commiting plagiarism!

FROM WEBSTER'S ONLINE DEFINITION OF PLAGIARIZING:
"Meaning:
[noncount] *:* the act of using another person's words or ideas without giving credit to that person *:* the act of plagiarizing something ▪ "
Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

rvadog said:


> ...then unable to do the work *that it was created for*? *Stupidity at the max.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Speaking of Max...
> Can today's working lines herd sheep or can't they? (honestly don't know)


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I know a couple working line dogs that got their HGH


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

Liesje said:


> Exactly, look how many people in this thread are crying and refusing to watch.
> 
> Now I'm not defending the show dogs and show breeders, but not all of them are bad. They took footage of the WORST handling and the WORST movements and they are not even gaiting, not a single dog in that video gaits even TWO steps.


 Can you please explain ? So those dogs shown in the doco are not really that bad just badly handled and biased footage is used ? Regardless of handling, a non exaggerated dog can't physically look the way those animals did. 

I can't see how the show gsd examples on the doco are worse than reality- German showlines are the main type of gsd sought where I am from and to varying degrees I will add, many dogs that I see have that type of exaggerated look in the spine and rear end.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Codmaster,

Are all show breeders bad? Yes. In that what they are doing is to the detriment of the breed as a whole. 

Working line breeders who do not show in conformation events are still able to breed with a consistent type? Why is that? Could it be the form really does follow function? That if you weed out genetic defects and breed for its purpose instead of the physical standard then they tend to meet the standard?

And the herding argument is tired and old. Can WL dogs herd? Most can I bet. But the job of a dog evolves. There is nothing wrong with that. The same things that made a GSD a great herder (Size, Nerves, Drives, Biddability) also make it a good police dog.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

German Shepherds do NOT herd like border collies, they spend most of the day circling the grazing flock, keeping the sheep in a designated area and predators out. They trot for hours, that is why they were designed to be longer than tall and to have a far reaching, effortless gait. The idea was perfect for Germany at the time with large flocks, and little pastures, the sheep were used to clean fields after crops came in and often had to be kept from neighboring fields ready for harvesting. The same dog would bring the flock to the field, watch it all day, then bring them home. This was called sheep tending. The effortless gait was to conserve energy. The longer body allowed for that. Most other tending breeds, Belgians etc, are still square and do the same job but are lighter and more agile but are to be also effortless in gait.

When loose the gait of the shepherd looks amazing, definitely floating, and powerful. They do have less agility than the border collies and shelties that were bred for a different purpose and the Belgian bred for a similar purpose, but lets remember the dogs were bred to suit the climate and landscape of the area they came from, as well as the breed of sheep popular there too. AS far as working lines I have spoken to several herding trainers and they have complained at the aggression seen as detrimental to training and that the ASL and GS were easiest to train and had the instincts intact. Not my knowledge but perhaps some WL are being bred to be as aggressive as possible and they have lost some of the original purpose???? Just a thought.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It seems to me when people resort to absolutes to make a point it is because their premise is weak in reality. Nothing is absolute, always, every, all, etc. I think valid discussions revolve around the norm for a certain element. What is the norm for workinglines, what is the norm for showlines, what is the norm of law enforcement dogs, what is the norm for herding German Shepherds. 
This post isn't taking a side, its just saying that the reality of the situation whatever it is; is expressed in the occurrence in society. There are workingline dogs that have won in the ASR, but it is so infrequent that it is not the norm. People who work their dogs don't have an emphasis on color/type, so if any of the sub types will work well they will be used by working people. If they will not work well (on average or "normally"), then you will not see people gravitate towards getting this type of dog to work.
Oftentimes, defensiveness is a sign of truth.(JMO) 
The real issue is if you have a weakness in something, until you first admit it, then concentrate on it, it will not be corrected. If my workingline dogs were too hyper to do herding or seeing-eye work, and I continue to breed to dogs that are also this way, then I am blind to my faults and a BYB in my eyes. JMO


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Just read through this.....

1. It is NOT the AKC who has made the GSD in the "showring" what it is today!!! The AKC is a DATABASE - BUSINESS - it tracks data on purebred dogs! It is an overseerer of show DATA - a technology business - it is not responsible for the breed standard of the GSD! Each and every breed has a mother club - in the US, it is the GSDCA...aim your animosity THERE - register your dog - it is an ownership certificate just like your car registration...it identifies the dog, its breed, parentage etc. That is it. The GSDCA is responsible for the way the breed is presented in the show ring. The breeders who want to show are responsible for the GSD who has been manufactured to their ideal for that venue.

2. Herding - this is NOT a "herding" breed like a BC...it is a WORKING breed - a utilitarian breed - why was schutzhund invented as a breedworthy test if the dog was JUST a herding breed? The GSDCA getting the breed moved to the Herding Group was a disservice to the breed's image IMO - it was a move destined to make little of the other functions the breed was meant to fulfill - guard dog, military dog, police dog, and yes, guide dog! Since the showring AKC dog is not genetically capable of excelling in these areas on a routine basis backing it into a "herding" category where herding consists of 3 or 4 sheep in little puzzle patterns salvaged the need of the show breeders to "prove" the dog could "work"....

FWIW - my East German female was starting training with a BC breeder who had large flocks of sheep - husband and wife owned farm, both worked dogs - the husband took over Kyra's training, and said she was the best GSD (and probably one of the few European bred!!!) he had ever seen and if he took her, she would beat BCs at herding tests....

Whatever guide dog program is in NJ HAS used working line GSDs for producing guide dog pups - Escobar Adelrik for example....actually Danger's co-owner met a trainer for them at an airport and they expressed interest in him - but unfortunately, his count is low...

3. The general public in the US do not LIKE the AKC showline GSD....seriously! I go to AKC shows - sometimes to show in OB, to see friends showing in OB or Breed (other breeds!) I have people approach me all the time asking about my dog - always commenting on the stance and top line (walks normal, back is straight,not crawling, not crippled looking etc) and then after meeting the dogs - esp when I had Danger out at BIG indoor shows, people commenting on his temperament - calm, friendly, relaxed...people who were interested in the breed and disappointed in the dogs they saw or met who were in the breed ring....this is my PERSONAL experience and not commenting on any breeder specifically who shows AKC...then these AKC breeders have been known to approach someone showing one of my pups very very successfully in agility and try to sell her a coated pup with extreme angulation - telling her she got a dog from the "wrong breeder" and she should have one of their type! They do not seem to want to see the European dogs performing in the AKC rings of any sort! They shun the European breeders and close ranks - one breeder who was judging at a fun match and is very very successful as an ob competitor told me that he/his buyers could not handle a dog like my (Sch3) dog, that the dog had way too much drive to train for the OB ring... and dogs who wander around, do not do sits in the routine, have no focus, will score better than a nice heeling, focused, quick to respond Sch3 dog who happens to wrap and bump a bit....sad sad sad....

Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

trudy said:


> German Shepherds do NOT herd like border collies, they spend most of the day circling the grazing flock, keeping the sheep in a designated area and predators out. They trot for hours, that is why they were designed to be longer than tall and to have a far reaching, effortless gait.


There could be some truth in what you mention in your post about too much aggression in working lines, certainly when one hears about successful herding dogs, they more frequently are American Show Lines of German Show lines - As for trotting effortlessly all day, that ability is tested by the AD, the 12.5 mile endurance run with the handler on the bicycle. 
Show breeders who breed for extremes will use the "need to cover long distances at a trot" rationalization for the extreme gait, but could their dog complete even so much as an AD? That would be a more realistic measure of a dog's suitability for long days of herding rather than what today's specialty conformation champions are turning out to be.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lee - Do you think it's true snobbery between the lines? Or do you think that the vast majority of people don't know what to do with a drivey dog? 

I ask because my pound puppy is a drivey dog and it seems that instead of tapping into the drive of a dog to train that most people choose to shut it down and try to work it that way with old school training techniques. I'm not talking about higher competition people, as I don't know any, but just the average person. So, could it be that they don't understand what to do with a working line dog?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I would not call it snobbery - but there is definitely animosity between the fancier of the AKC show dogs - IN GENERAL!!!! - not all!!! - and the people with European dogs - Esp when people start showing up and succeeding competitively in OB or Agility with a WL dog! The comments that get back to me - are basically about drive & aggression - that the German dogs are 'no good'!!! LOL LOL I always come back with - the name of hte breed is GERMAN Shepherd - so my dogs whose parents are born in Germany (or Belgium) or who are FROM Germany/Belgium are not really German Shepherds??

I think that overall only a small minority of people understand the concept of drive....and genetic temperament....also, the priorities of people breeding for the conformation ring are focused on movement to the exclusion of everything else....I have suborned a few people who had AKC dogs who woke up and saw the issues of temperament - but they always revert to their beginnings and their obsession with gait - and the few I have dealt with have been less than stellar accross the board - if you ignore temperament & health and produce bad tempered, bad health dogs - I have to question your judgement and ethhics I guess....I am pretty hard core on ethics and there is too much correlation here for me...

Lee


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

the GS was bred to herd large flocks, not 3 or 4 sheep, but hundreds. I agree with the test of shutzhund being a breed test and the original agility was designed as a showcase for GS's. But I still think they are right in the herding group. In Europe other breeds of dogs, the ones I know for sure BElgians are used as police dogs, search and rescue, etc. And not just the Mals but all the varieties. They are still sheep dogs, that is not a detrimental description. The sheep dog had to be very physically fit, smart, and easily trainable with the ability to think on its own and assess the situations. This is a great tribute for law enforcement, seeing eye or other service type dog. I think breeders should be proud to say a GS was originally a sheep dog and from those beginnings have gone so far, and that they can go back and still do the job, again just my opinion


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Castlemaid said:


> There could be some truth in what you mention in your post about too much aggression in working lines, certainly when one hears about successful herding dogs, they more frequently are American Show Lines of German Show lines


I wonder how many American lines have HGH titles and/or are actually used to herd sheep, not just for training and getting titles. I know there are very few people that use GSDs for actual herding work OR getting HGH titles these days but the only ones I see are working lines and German show lines. Nikon's breeder sold a dog to someone who does herding in CA and the dog is a German show line dog but out of a 12x HGH bitch who worked sheep in Germany before being retired from work and sold for breeding. I also know of a few people training working line dogs with Ulf in New England.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank You, Lee. I think in a conversation like this, it is invaluable to have input from a breeder who also works their dogs.

The input I have back from my trainer is the SL just do not have the work ethic that they should, that WL has. Coming from an agility and OB person who has started the local ScH club, I think that is a pretty important point. We were discussing Boxers last time I was there and her thoughts were that boxers were working dogs that have also been ruined. The two I have are high, nervous, energy dogs.

It seems that, across the breeds and even different animals, that the show lines are held as the 'standard' but that they can't do the job they were intended to do. Whether it's the quarter horse with the teacup feet or the show line dogs that can't do what the breed was intended for. That is generally speaking as there are good breeders out there that care about temperament, health and work ethics. 

If the judges continue to pin the dogs that are the extreme, the breed will continue to deteriorate. So what is the solution to that?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Liesje, I'm far from being up on the top herding lines - I seem to remember on this board (and maybe somewhere else? don't remember) the occasional post and/or link to ASL dogs that have achieved herding titles - I just wanted to give credit where credit is due. Though it had been argued in those threads, that earning a herding title (other than the HGH) is very different than actually working sheep all day, everyday. A dog can be trained to do a herding test, but still not have the mental and physical stamina to do the work full time.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I do think earning titles is different than doing work all day every day, but I think that includes things like schutzhund too.

My husband and I are not Shepherds, and likely never will be, but we're taking Mirada herding and plan to title her in that venue (past started). She will be working more than 3-4 sheep once she gets a little more steady.

It just really bugs me when some of us try and go and train and trial our dogs in one of the arenas they're meant for, and it's poo poo'd because it's not good enough.

I mean, how many HGH trainers are there in the states? I only know two. Ulf and Geary....and Gearly LEARNED from Ulf! And both of them are on the east coast! New York and New Jersey. Doesn't do someone from California or the Midwest (heck, anybody outside of the New England area) any good :-/


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have an East German dog doing Herding and it wouldn't bother me if people poo pooed her, because she has textbook temperament for the breed and that's why she excells in her herding training. Nothing wrong with training a dog in herding, its an excellent use of the dog. A good herding dog will possess good GS temperament. JMO


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Slider LOVED herding sheep but after I was permanently injured by a 250 pound wether ramming my knee, I stopped the lessons. When I lived in Maryland Tex, Echo, Yukon and Too all took herding lessons and really enjoyed them (well, Too was more interested in the horse poop than the sheep and ducks). 

I cannot tell a lie, I detested the herding, but the dogs loved it so much I took them to lessons, seminars, anything dealing with herding we could attend.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The good thing about herding is in plugs into the raw intelligence of the dog and the instinctive traits that the dog should possess. Herding will really give good insight into how balanced your dog is especially with large flocks of sheep that will challenge your dog at times and requires the dog to stay a step ahead. A tough ram will punk down a dog without good nerve and courage, a hyper dog or too driven dog will expend needless energy and overreact to situations thus causing possible harm to the sheep. Real herding tests all aspects of the breed and good herding dogs will usually excell at any utility endeavor.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I have an East German dog doing Herding and it wouldn't bother me if people poo pooed her, because she has textbook temperament for the breed and that's why she excells in her herding training.


Cliff, I meant poo pooing more in regards to the number of sheep available for the dog to work. Yesterday Mirada worked 7-9 sheep (didn't get to count), "that's not enough" for many people. "She's not really doing it!"


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't mean to "poo-poo" anyone's dog but to me just because a dog "does herding" doesn't necessarily mean one thing or the other. Sort of like winning a Rally Novice class doesn't really compare to winning High SchH3 obedience or the police olympics. Is obedience just obedience? No, there's definitely a spectrum. I am speaking more about dogs/people I've talked to in person, not people in this thread/on this board. For example, I show my German and working line dogs in venues that still favor American line dogs, so I get to chatting with some Am line exhibitors and people ask each other what other training do you do, yadda yadda. I had one lady tell me that her Am line dogs were THE German Shepherd because they "herd". Then I watched her dogs in the ring (her own and a few she bred or co-bred) and there was one that seemed comfortable while the rest showed poor temperament even in the conformation ring, showing avoidance of the judge and handler, shaking, ears flat and tail tucked. So I'm supposed to take her word for it that these are correct GSDs because she can get them to move a handful of sheep around some cones? I don't think so.

I think like most things, what you "read" from the dog also depends on the experience of those doing the "reading". For example, I had my Kenya tested on sheep. It was only 3-4 sheep in an arena, but the woman doing the testing impressed me a great deal with her knowledge. I learned along the lines of what Cliff is saying, that even though the dog showed good prey drive, moved well in either direction, and was "heady" (could predict the movement of the sheep), she was not the best natural for herding because she would not have been able to stand up to that tough ram. Could I train the dog to do the C course all that sort of thing? Oh yes she received a "recommended for training" stamp, but what the instructor explained to me as the test went on gave far more insight into the dog and her weaknesses and strengths than whether or not I could herd with her and title in herding. 

It's like doing Schutzhund, just getting the title itself doesn't really prove anything one way or the other, it's about what you learn about the dog through the training process. I just have a sour taste in my mouth left by so many exhibitors that seem to completely disregard this and try to convince me their dog exemplifies the German Shepherd Dog in both form and function because it went herding a few times, yet the dog presented cowers at having a judge run his hands over the top line. Again this is just based on my personal experiences at recent shows.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> It's like doing Schutzhund, just getting the title itself doesn't really prove anything one way or the other, it's about what you learn about the dog through the training process.


And I do not disagree. Like I said, for me it was about people poo pooing the NUMBER of sheep available to the dog (and handler). I do not know anybody in the US other than Geary and Ulf that herd for a living (and thus have many MANY sheep) AND use tending dogs, not drivers.

BTW, I am happy to say that Mirada does not cower and is not nervous in the show ring. No tail tucking or any other such thing


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

No offense to people who are trying to work their dogs BUT the number of sheep matter a great deal in my opinion. A huge mass of 300 moving animals is far more intimidating if you ask me. It is the difference between a child or a person with no knowledge or presense wearing a protection sleeve and one who really knows how to disturb a dog. To me, the two present an ENTIRELY different picture to the dogs. I had a client of mine send me a video of her young dog being "tested" in herding. There were about 7 sheep and basically, all she did was chase them in a round pen. I sat there wondering just how this is indicating any "herding instinct". Prey instinct maybe but for a GSD, I think large flock tending is what they were intended for. Of course, they are a herding breed, that would explain why the last part of their name is...Shepherd. 

The same traits needed for SchH are needed for large flock tending. Only difference is, herding is done in a much more natural way than SchH is nowadays.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

codmaster said:


> If your dog limps, why would you want to show him in conformation shows? How would you expect the judge to judge his gaiting?


I didn't intend on showing him in conformation. We aren't able to compete in *any* AKC sanctioned sport. Please be aware, if he was limping due to pain I wouldn't consider it. But he is limping (or gimpy) due to his foot structure and not pain.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One other thing, even herding , ( according to those who do it anyway), has been manipulated into something that is not quite what it used to be. My point above is to say that a sheep is a sheep and they act like sheep vs helpers who can simply be toy dispensers.
However, I understand that sheep, ( usually the ones used for trials), can become very accustomed to the dogs and react accordingly, which also will remove some of the challenge to the dogs.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> No offense to people who are trying to work their dogs BUT the number of sheep matter a great deal in my opinion.


Well when people are willing to dole out the money so those of us that work with what's available can send our dogs overseas or what not to work with 300+ sheep, I'm sure more that are trying to work their dogs would be happy to do so.

As it is we drive 6 hours round trip for lessons and are darn grateful we found a trainer even willing to work with Mirada. 

It's like no matter what people do in certain arenas, it's just not good enough, and it gets old.

I am aware that 12 sheep is NOT the same as 200 sheep, but 12 sheep is what's available.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Xeph said:


> And I do not disagree. Like I said, for me it was about people poo pooing the NUMBER of sheep available to the dog (and handler). I do not know anybody in the US other than Geary and Ulf that herd for a living (and thus have many MANY sheep) AND use tending dogs, not drivers.


I think the number matters but I also understand the limitations in the USA. To me half a dozen is not comparable to 300+. It's not a slam on the dog or owner because the only real options are living near Ulf or having Ulf train the dog, but it is what it is. When I take my dogs "herding" there are 5 sheep in a pen or arena. Some things we can test and see right away, but other things we can't. When my dogs work on 5 sheep I know I'm not getting a complete picture, I can't say for sure whether they have this or that aspect of temperament conducive to tending large flocks, so I can't say "my dog is the ideal GSD because it herds."


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> It's not a slam on the dog or owner because the only real options are living near Ulf or having Ulf train the dog, but it is what it is.


Well, why can't people just say "Good for you!" when people put in the effort of getting their dog on sheep at all, instead of saying "That's great, but..."?

People can say it's not a slam all they want, but I certainly disagree, because it sure comes off as one.

Heck, when I talked to Ulf, he told me the OWNER had to come and work the dog, and that I was too far away to do that, and so we couldn't be his students. That was about 2 years ago, so maybe that's changed.

I understand his viewpoint, but that doesn't help me any.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm thinking of it in terms of a breed worthiness test, people telling me they were breeding their dogs because they were herding dogs/herding lines, that I should not breed my dogs (not that I do anyway, but...) because they are not "herding" dogs and their dogs are.

Everyone has limitations, I can't train at all right now in any venue but it is what it is. If I were ever to breed a dog it would be based on what I actually know of the dog and not what my best intentions would be.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Not being a person who is willing to coddle dogs or people, I can tell you this. What matters to me shouldn't matter so much to you. What I offer as educational is not intended as a slam to people reading the information. I realize that many people on these boards, for whatever reason, feel like I am talking directly to THEM. That is a self confidence issue if you ask me. If you are comfortable with what you are doing, nothing that I, or anyone else, says should matter to you.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Not being a person who is willing to coddle dogs or people, I can tell you this.


I'm not big on "coddling" either, my point was I'm just not big into "That's great, but" type stuff. Just in general. I'm happy with what my dogs and I are doing, and I'm not looking for everybody to be super happy about various things, it'd just be nice if people were more respectful of others using the means they have *shrugs*


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Something else people need to take into consideration is the type of sheep. GSD were designed to work what they call heavy sheep. These animals do not move as easily and are not as flightly as the "lighter" breeds. Most sheep used in tests in this country are light sheep since they need to be easily moved by many different breeds.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Well, I just learned something new, Lisa  I did not know that ^_^


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I say congrats to anyone who does anything with their dogs, teh real disservice are the thousands that live their lives in a kennel just being bred and maybe taken to an occasional show to be presented so people will want to breed more, sigh..... Please make all dogs have interaction of some type daily, with some kind of training/ playing/ trialing/ etc hope in the future


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Since this has evolved into a herding discussion...I can share some of my experiences. I know not everyone knows this, but there is also an HGH club in NJ. I have been training there for about a year and a half, I don't consider myself an expert but I have learned a lot in that time.

The sheep used for HGH are heavy sheep. Also their numbers make them heavier - a flock of 200+ is much less reactive than 50 or 100. Light sheep will not relax and settle down to graze with the dog patrolling...which is what you need for tending. 

If the sheep are happy in a graze - if the graze is pretty lush, they may not challenge the dog. These are the types of situations that beginner dogs are put into - a dog's confidence is built up over time. As a dog gains experience and confidence, it is exposed to more challenging situations. 

For example - I remember one time over the summer, we were put in a small graze with the flock of about 200. The graze was tiny and eaten down and the one right next to it was green and lush. It was 90+ degrees and humid...not pleasant conditions. We were left alone as the trainer had chores to do, and he knows that Kessy would not let the sheep leave.

For about an hour and a half, the sheep pushed. When they are hungry, they will really make the dog work, and if they don't respect the dog, they WILL leave the graze if they're hungry enough. They pushed hard along multiple borders, and they really made Kessy work.
A dog with a weak temperament might be challenged by this pushing and would not push back. Or maybe the dog would get tired in the heat, and would give up. But Kessy did her job and I think that was one of my proudest moments so far...because I knew that the sheep would have walked all over her had she not been up to the challenge.

Now I understand that people are hurt when people say it's great that they're herding with their dogs "but..."
I think it depends on what your intentions are. If you want to go to have fun with your dog - great! But if you think that herding a small number of sheep is the same as tending a large flock...it just can't compare. The sheep used in small flocks are very light and are very reactive to the dog. It can make even a weak dog look/feel strong, being able to chase a bunch of terrified sheep around. Now - I am not saying it's all that way, but a lot of it is. But put that weak dog in front of a wall of 50+ sheep that want to leave the graze and will take advantage of any weakness, and there's a good chance that the dog will quit on you.

As others have said, temperaments for schutzhund and herding do have a lot in common. But there are differences...a lot of schutzhund dogs are bred for that over the top drive. But for herding, that's not really ideal. If the dog is too "crazy" all it will want to do is chase the sheep around and it won't be able to take direction.
Also it is important that the dog has a good "feel" for the sheep - where to focus its effort, how hard to push, etc. If a dog doesn't have this feel, it can still herd, but it will always have to be told where to work and it can't work as independently as a dog that has that feel.

For Kessy - she has high drive, but she is also very biddable and if she didn't have that biddability, I don't think it would have worked out with the herding. But she loves to please me and work with/for me, and she has a good feel for the sheep, and has turned into a really nice tending dog. She is excitable, which also comes from the Schh lines, and if she were calmer it'd be easier to work her in herding, but since I do both with her, I'll take it since it's helpful for the Schh training. She is also extremely confident and resilient to correction and never shuts down or quits (but is not hard headed), both of which are great for Schh and herding.

On trial day, it is generally set up to give the dogs every chance to succeed. I have seen some weak dogs pass their HGH because the sheep did what they were supposed to do. If conditions weren't right (the sheep don't want to move in heavy rain or extreme heat), it wouldn't have gone as well. So an HGH title in itself does not guarantee a dog to be breedworthy in terms of temperament - but as someone else said, it is the journey of training, same as in schutzhund, and when done properly, the dog's strengths and weaknesses will come out and you can see exactly what you've got.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> As others have said, temperaments for schutzhund and herding do have a lot in common. But there are differences...a lot of schutzhund dogs are bred for that over the top drive. But for herding, that's not really ideal. If the dog is too "crazy" all it will want to do is chase the sheep around and it won't be able to take direction.
> Also it is important that the dog has a good "feel" for the sheep - where to focus its effort, how hard to push, etc. If a dog doesn't have this feel, it can still herd, but it will always have to be told where to work and it can't work as independently as a dog that has that feel.


I said it but it is important to note, I am not talking about "modern " schutzhund. I am talking about SchH as it used to be and as it was intended to be done. What you said is true, many of the dogs now are a bit on the crazy side and seem to require constant direction/correction etc. The ability to work with their genetics is going away because the genetics are going away. What you just said about knowing how much to push back is something I would compare to how a dog should respond to the bad guy. That being where a dog has the ability to escalate aggression in response to the actions of the agitator. That , IMO, was why the test was set up the way it was, in order to demonstrate that ability to bring more or less, depending on what the bad guy was doing. Now, we have e-collars to force the dogs to do what used to come a bit more naturally. I saw this ability in the dogs much more often years ago but still see it in some of the older bloodlines.
I started in SchH many years ago with dogs with herding lines very close in the pedigree. They were absolutely the best SchH dogs and real life protection dogs I have ever owned. They always had an ear to me and would respond instantly when I called them or told them to out, whatever. They had all the traits you are talking about and they used them in SchH. I have no doubt they could have done tending as well because the genetics were quite apparent . SchH was far different then however, I would expect to see problems with some of the SchH lines as far as herding goes nowadays. The excitability factor being one of the most troublesome as it would be for SchH if all the tricks, methods, devices, etc were not available.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> know not everyone knows this, but there is also an HGH club in NJ.


I mentioned Geary/Geary's place more than once  And he learned from Ulf. So the two HGH trainers in the whole country are on the east coast....

If there are more HGH trainers around, I most definitely would like to know!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

phgsd, thanks for that great post!!! Very insightful, very interesting.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Yes I agree with Anne - I was talking more about the "sport" type Schh dogs which are so common nowadays. It does take a level head, biddability, and a "thinking" type of dog and that can get lost all too easily when breeding for podium dogs. On the other hand, I have seen "herding-line" GSD's that are really watered down in a variety of ways. But I guess the difference is that nowadays there are not many people who tend sheep professionally, so it's not imperative that the dog have the right stuff. 

And Xeph I know you mentioned Geary, but others were just talking about Ulf and I wanted to clear that up. I don't think many people know Geary is out here  I don't know of any others at this point...there are some trainers who do C-Course but it really can't compare to HGH...the max for C-Course is 100 sheep, and most do it with the minumum of 20. For HGH the bare minumum is 200 and at that size the flock has a whole different feel. I don't think I could tend 20 sheep with Kessy! It would require an extremely calm and level headed dog to keep the sheep from taking off for the hills, which may not be up to the challenge of a flock of 200 if they're not in a cooperative mood (not to mention 500 or a thousand or more which is/was sometimes the case).

Anyway - I love to talk about herding/tending with GSD's since it's something that is so misunderstood (most people think it's just like BC-style herding). A lot of people might look at our dogs tending and think how easy it looks or how the dog isn't doing anything but trotting around in circles...but it is much more complicated than that and it takes a lot of work and TIME - there is no rushing or you'll regret it later!


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

I'm a bit disappointed with the direction of this thread. I was look forward to seeing someone (Cod?) try and defend show breeders.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

For me pretty much everything still comes down to the individual's ability to read dogs while they are doing herding, sch, or law enforcement. There are Sch dogs that should not be bred, there are herding dogs that should not be bred, there are law enforcement dogs that should not be bred, IMO. These things have standards and good trainers can develop a dog to eventually reach minimum standards. Also, over time a dog may reach a standard but because of weaknesses that shouldn't be passed it takes 5 years to accomplish the standard. Also, you often have superior dogs in the hands of lacking people so that the dog's accomplishments don't reflect the dog's genetic value. That's why nothing is absolute, IMO, and it takes a practiced eye to really understand what you are seeing. A good German Shepherd, in my opinion should be able to be trained to do herding, utility, and Sch in my honest opinion. The operative phase is "should be able to be "trained", and this is where many breeders have gone off track. Still, it usually comes down to what is the intention of the breeder in terms of breeding; to maintain the breed, or breeding to receive emotional fulfillment based on individual "likes". I think a person who is versed in the training craft of herding will recognize a potentially good dog whether it is 10 sheep or 200 sheep. The same with a person versed in Sch or law enforcement...they will recognize if they see the traits necessary for them as a trainer/handler to bring the dog to fruition. These are the people who have a responsibility to preserve the breed in my opinion. Without this basic knowledgebase, you wouldn't know if the dog was breedworthy regardless of titles. Of course some see this equation differently, but I am a firm believer that generally speaking, people get the dogs they deserve and have the dogs their knowledgebase affords them. Some people should breed more and some people should not breed at all for the betterment of the breed,JMHO.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

"Some people should breed more and some people should not breed at all for the betterment of the breed...."

*Hit the nail right on the head here!* (People or dogs!)


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:wub:


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Keep in mind, it's biased and is meant to make them look like mutated, handicapped dogs.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

vandal said:


> one other thing, even herding , ( according to those who do it anyway), has been manipulated into something that is not quite what it used to be. My point above is to say that a sheep is a sheep and they act like sheep vs helpers who can simply be toy dispensers.
> However, i understand that sheep, ( usually the ones used for trials), can become very accustomed to the dogs and react accordingly, which also will remove some of the challenge to the dogs.


very true about trial sheep.after being chased or confronted many many times with overzealous dogs they learn to bunch by themselves rather than take flight.sheep are very smart animals.sheep that have been used repeatedly in courses and sheep that have not been exposed to dogs act in a very diffrent way.they are flighty and are quick to disperse.and usually new dogs are tested by the lead ewe as she is the one that will direct the flock to scatter or hold the bunch.if the lead ewe decideds to bolt then it takes an amazing amount of control and ability to hold the rest of the sheep together.yes the odd ram will test the dog with a sharp bunt and stare down but a steady dog will never bite or lunge in nervousness and will stare down the ram until he decideds to turn and regroup with the flock.
We handled over 3000 sheep daily and i was lucky to be able to learn from some of the best dog handlers and shepherds.we brought over new zealanders and some aussies to work for us durning the spring and summer months when we took 10's of thousands of sheep to the cutblocks in the rocky mountains to graze the forestry blocks after the seedlings were planted for weed and brush control.now these are extreme conditions for all participants,wether it be for the dogs,sheep or shepherd.we had to deal with some of the most rugged terrain,logs and slash and almost vertical slopes while tending a flock of 600 plus sheep,herding dogs,predator control dogs and also dealing with bears,wolves the odd cougar.and no we did not get to go home at the end of the day but had to live up on a mountain slope for up to 4 months.i've seen good dogs work and know what was expected of them.these working dogs were vital to our operation and we relied on them to get us through.this is why i deem it so important to keep a herding breed healthy and active in its original field.there are still operations out there that have need of a great working ability type.its a crime to take that away from a great breed,to put more focus on adapting to some other ability and just fading out what it was bred for.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

phgsd said:


> since this has evolved into a herding discussion...i can share some of my experiences. I know not everyone knows this, but there is also an hgh club in nj. I have been training there for about a year and a half, i don't consider myself an expert but i have learned a lot in that time.
> 
> The sheep used for hgh are heavy sheep. Also their numbers make them heavier - a flock of 200+ is much less reactive than 50 or 100. Light sheep will not relax and settle down to graze with the dog patrolling...which is what you need for tending.
> 
> ...


you have the behaviour of the dog and sheep down pat.your explanation of how a small flock of scared sheep and a large flock of sheep in their comfort zone is well presented to someone who is not familiar with flock mentality.sheep are flock animals.the larger the flock the more secure they feel against a predator.sheep are not solitary animals and need the comfort of the herd to function right.i see working large numbers of sheep and being able to excel at it say an enormous amount about the dogs intelligence,drive,heart and capabilities.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

phgsd said:


> since this has evolved into a herding discussion...i can share some of my experiences. I know not everyone knows this, but there is also an hgh club in nj. I have been training there for about a year and a half, i don't consider myself an expert but i have learned a lot in that time.
> 
> The sheep used for hgh are heavy sheep. Also their numbers make them heavier - a flock of 200+ is much less reactive than 50 or 100. Light sheep will not relax and settle down to graze with the dog patrolling...which is what you need for tending.
> 
> ...


you have the behaviour of the dog and sheep down pat.your explanation of how a small flock of scared sheep and a large flock of sheep in their comfort zone is well presented to someone who is not familiar with flock mentality.sheep are flock animals.the larger the flock the more secure they feel against a predator.sheep are not solitary animals and need the comfort of the herd to function right.i see working large numbers of sheep and being able to excel at it say an enormous amount about the dogs intelligence,drive,heart and capabilities.

AS FOR THE OWNERS WHO DO TAKE THEIR DOGS TO HERDING TESTS,ITS THE STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT THEY OWN A DOG THAT HAS A TRAIT THAT SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED IS A GREAT THING TO HEAR.TO TAKE THE TIME FOR MOST PEOPLE TO DO THIS CAN BE DIFFICULT THESE DAYS BUT IT SHOWS THEY HAVE A WILLINGNESS TO PRESERVE THE BREEDS PURPOSE IN SOME WAY AND AT THE SAME TIME LEARNING AND UNDERSTANDING THEIR DOGS HISTORY IN ANOTHER.TO REALIZE THAT THE GSD IS NOT JUST AN ORNAMENT TO SHOW OFF IN THE RING WHILE WINNING RECOGNITION FROM THE JUDGE AND PEERS AND FRANKLY USELESS CHAMPIONSHIP TITLES WHILE NOT REALLY UNDERSTANDING THE BREED THEY WORK WITH AT ALL.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> AS FOR THE OWNERS WHO DO TAKE THEIR DOGS TO HERDING TESTS,ITS THE STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT THEY OWN A DOG THAT HAS A TRAIT THAT SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED IS A GREAT THING TO HEAR.TO TAKE THE TIME FOR MOST PEOPLE TO DO THIS CAN BE DIFFICULT THESE DAYS BUT IT SHOWS THEY HAVE A WILLINGNESS TO PRESERVE THE BREEDS PURPOSE IN SOME WAY AND AT THE SAME TIME LEARNING AND UNDERSTANDING THEIR DOGS HISTORY IN ANOTHER.TO REALIZE THAT THE GSD IS NOT JUST AN ORNAMENT TO SHOW OFF IN THE RING WHILE WINNING RECOGNITION FROM THE JUDGE AND PEERS AND FRANKLY USELESS CHAMPIONSHIP TITLES WHILE NOT REALLY UNDERSTANDING THE BREED THEY WORK WITH AT ALL.


THIS!!! This is ALL I was looking for!

As I said before (like 6 times xD) I am aware that my little bitch working 12 sheep cannot compare to working a flock of a few hundred, but we take our WHOLE DAY on Sundays to go and do some work with what we have available.

We are VERY dedicated to this endeavor, and while I wish we had more sheep, we do not, so my girl works with what is available.

I would like to be trialing in C Course when my bitch is ready.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

xeph said:


> this!!! This is all i was looking for!
> 
> As i said before (like 6 times xd) i am aware that my little bitch working 12 sheep cannot compare to working a flock of a few hundred, but we take our whole day on sundays to go and do some work with what we have available.
> 
> ...


many people donot realize that sheep herding may come back in style more so than before and not just for fashion or trial.

everyone knows that the ethnic community is growing at a huge pace here in canada and america and in most eastern cultures,they prefer lamb or goat meat.as a sheep breeder i have had more demand for lamb then ever before and have been encouraged to produce more lamb by the canadian sheep breeders association because we are still in a shortfall by 60% for lamb products as we ship all lamb over seas.they have asked current breeder and up and coming breeders to up the production and to encourage others as well.lamb prices have reach a beautiful high market value while beef and pork have continued to drop.
that in turn means more breeders can make a decent and profitable living while raising larger numbers of sheep and larger herds of sheep will require more herding and driving dogs.

there in itself is an opportunity for some gsd breeders to produce a better working/herding type gsd for future farmers and shepherds.work to instill a better herding or groupng instinct and hardier overall conformation with less of the genetic issues it has today.make it so that in the future they need not overlook a potential herding dog rather it becomes a choice between the primary herding dogs of today.why can't the gsd go back to its roots and to make a better future for itself?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

great posts here.
A sheep is not a sheep. There are different breeds and they all behave differently , some bolder and confrontational , some very flighty. I have a fairly large sheep farm a 5 minute walk away from my front door. They own the 100 acres right behind mine property and the sheep do graze there . I don't have enough fingers left to count the number of times when the sheep have broken through downed electrical fences and were out roaming the road , which becomes a super highway when the commuters head home -- subdivisions encroaching on class 1 farmland - (another matter entirely).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Could you share the pedigree of your Kessy please.
How would you breed her to bring in that calmness in the next generation (recapping that you said she had an excitability coming through her schh lines).
loved your posts -- would that by Ulf's herding club.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

My cousin grew up in New Zealand-when he was in his early twenties he worked on a sheep farm-he said he had mixed breed dogs that worked with him He said that now they used helicopters-some day I hope I can borrow someones sheep and he can teach us how to do it


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Here is a link to Kessy's pedigree -
SG1 Kessy vom Waldwinkel - German shepherd dog

The excitability - it's not the worst thing, as the sheep really respect her and she can "turn it on" quickly if I need her to. I would tone it down a bit - the hard part is the beginning of our lessons. Even if I run her before our lessons it doesn't make a big difference, she is still very excited when we start. I have to keep her on a short leash...not literally on leash, but I keep her on one border until she settles. If I let her take off before she settles down, she runs so fast down the borders, and if she's not familiar with the graze she will go too fast and will lose the border, and ends up coming into the graze. That can cause some problems - although she is not coming in to take down a sheep, they still tend to spook and that will excite her even more. So it's something that I try my hardest to avoid! But it also tends to "waste" 10-20 minutes (depending on the temperature!) of our lesson.

Anyway...in regards to breeding, I love her temperament overall. If I could tone down that excitement factor in her puppies, it would make life a bit easier! I am hoping to have my first litter this spring and have picked out a male who is drivey, but not extreme and overall is fairly calm. 

I have some videos of her on my Youtube - here is one...





She is working calmly, and may look a little tired but this was hour #2 or 3 for the day (and again it was pretty hot out) so she had plenty of time to settle. So she works calmly but when she sees sheep trying to cross the border, she will turn it on and go chase them back in. 
That is something that takes a long time to establish...that the dog understands that her job is to keep in the sheep that are trying to cross the border. If you watch the video and her body language closely, you can see when she perks up when she sees them crossing, and runs after them and then leaves them alone once they go back in. I don't have any videos of the sheep really pushing, but they try to cross here and there in the video I posted.

Our trainer has commented many times that he's really surprised how well Kessy understands her job now, and that some dogs never develop this. In the beginning he told me that she would probably be one of those dogs that would always have to be shown where the work is. I guess he based it off the fact that she is not from herding lines, and because her prey drive was so high when we started training. But over time her herding instincts came out more and more and now I can rely on her to keep the sheep in and I really don't have to do much of anything anymore in the graze...I can just sit back and watch her work.

Anyway...I am rambling again LOL


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