# OTCH Puppy Breeder



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

We are searching for a German Shepherd male puppy bred from an OTCH male and an OTCH female hopefully within a day's drive from San Francisco. Does anyone know a breeder who might have a puppy or upcoming puppies that would qualify? Also, does anyone know a better way to search for one?

Many Thanks!


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

What are you actually looking for?

What I mean is: why are you picking out those specific credentials? What do you hope to get in a future puppy by looking for OTCH parents?


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Our first German Shepherd as a married couple (we both had GSDs when we were young) was ranked 29th in the Western United States in AKC Obedience Trials. We'd our third dog to compete as well.


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

My bitch was ranked in the top 10 back in 2009 and 2010. She is working line. I would think any working line will take you there.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Well, in that case the obvious answer would be to go to some shows in your area and figure out which of those dogs might be a good fit for your training style and preferences, then track down whoever bred those dogs. Scores are only a small part of the story -- finding a dog who suits your style is more important if you want to replicate those scores in competition.

But I'll also throw out a recommendation for von Sontausen, who is (I think) in that general area and has been producing some nice obedience dogs. One of them is located in my region, and I wouldn't be surprised if that dog OTCh's in the near future. von Sontausen German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ledger , was #2 in nationwide competition . One or two points shy of #1 . Limited shows to begin with - then owner went through surprise divorce - entered at the very very last show and lost by one or two points ---

however ---- your best bet is to look for over all desirable qualities which include willingness , good retrieve, balanced body, environmental soundness, appropriate social attitude , health .

the rest is up to you.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I second Sontausen , Julia Priest .


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Thank you all for the great suggestions!

DawnAndJR: Are you anywhere near the Bay Area, and if so have you bred your bitch?

Merciel: We were living in Stockton, California when we competed, so we'll need to track down some local events where we live now, but your absolutely right that would be a good place to start. The Von Sontausen dogs do seem like they are the type of dogs we're looking for, but strangely enough I can't find on their website where they are located. I'm guessing because of their area code they're back where we used to live 30 years ago which means we might have even met them at trials. Do you know which city they are near?

Carmen: Is Ledger your dog now? If so, have you bred him with another champion? 

Thanks to all, and if you are interested in GSD obedience trials you should watch the video "Obedience Dog Championships from day 3 of Crufts 2013 with Jenny Gould & Zankanja Bitter 'N' Twisted" on YouTube. I never saw even a Border Collie perform so magically and with such enthusiasm!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ledger was my breeding and his dam was an Obedience Grand Victrix -- this line continues by way of the far-background in my 35 year continuous line.
Ledger would be over 30 years of age - so the answer is no .
He was never bred .
I would not chose a champion -- I would chose the dog , not the title -- . I have produced Best in Group and Best in Show GSD and ROM (register of Merit) and none of them were produced by "champions" .

I am saying this because I want to impress on you to have a goal in mind , a picture and a feel for an ideal . 

I spent years trying to get more recognition of the value of the obedience ring and temperament test for the GSDCof C , which finally relented , and the first trial held at the Nationals had 2 or 3 dogs that passed the test . 2 of them were my breeding owned by someone other than myself.

Not much has changed. 

You want a competitive obedience club - then go around to your local clubs, not necessarily schutzhund.

I don't know where you live , but say if you were in my area I would say , Swansea Obedience, Victoria County Obedience , Lab Owners Obedience etc etc. These names may not be current - but this is where you had good exposure. 
Another thing to do is to contact the AKC for local obedience trials and then go and attend and see who has what .

and in case anyone gets their knickers in a knot - I am more or less retired ----


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh I see , California , why not try Anne Kent, forum member going under the name Vandal - kennel Adler-Stein-Kennels-News, Los-Angeles-German-Shepherds


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't know if anyones competing in AKC with any of them Haven, but I've seen dogs from here score very high in IPO obedience.

Dogs For Sale | K9AmbassadorK9Ambassador


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Carmen: As I'm searching, I keep getting the feeling that GSDs are much more popular back East than here in the San Francisco Bay Area. The closest GSD club is over 70 miles away! Strange but still worth the trip to see some GSD Obedience Trials. 

I sent an email to Julia Priest, and I am looking forward to her reply as the philosophy represented in her website is very in tune with what we are looking for. 

I do understand what you are saying about champions. As we might prefer to do Agility or even Tracking now instead, we're looking for the "type" of GSD with the temperament to perform Obedience Trials enthusiastically NOT (and let me repeat that again) NOT for a winner. We found Obedience Trials a fun way to bond with our dog and to meet other GSD owners; we would have continued going even if we had lost.

Thanks for your great advice (even though I don't own any knickers.)
Stuart


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Steve: Schutzhund training was coming to the forefront at about the time we retired our first GSD about 30 years ago so we never got familiar with it. If you read my response to Carmspack, what Schutzhund title do you think would best suit our yearnings?


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

It's really not about the title. Having handler/owner-trained titles at high levels in the program is important, because that tells you that the breeder has trained a dog to that level, and that the breeder might have an eye for what makes a good dog. But, IMO, it does not matter so much about whether the individual dog has the title as whether the _breeder_ understands the dog, is honest about its capability, and knows how to put together a good match.

My dog Pongu is one of the top World Cynosport Rally dogs in the world. He's ranked #1 nationally in his competitive division for 2013 and #10 overall worldwide in all divisions. He has about 35 titles across four different sport venues and is currently training in agility, where he's picking up the obstacles pretty quickly (learned to run six weave poles in 5 days; we'll probably start trialing next spring), and nosework, where he's showing a lot of promise but I'm not that into the sport so I don't know that I'll invest the effort to trial in that. I got far enough to see that Pongu could do it, though.

He's also an insane fearful genetic mess of a dog who should never ever be bred. What his titles _really_ say is that he's a smart dog who happens to belong to someone who spent a lot of time and money playing around with him, not that he's an inherently good dog (he isn't) or that he would reproduce desirable traits if bred (he definitely wouldn't).

I'm using him as an example to make the point that titles only go so far. You can use them as a useful filtering mechanism to knock out breeders who never title _any_ of their dogs, but IMO it is not very useful to get too fixated on looking for a UDX-OTCH pair or whatever other combination of letters you've got in mind. In and of itself, that won't tell you whether you've got a dog with the potential to perform well.

With that said, I've spent a fair amount of time looking for dogs with the potential to achieve high levels in obedience (that being one of my primary goals for my next dog), and I _do_ think that Schutzhund breeders are, as a group, your best bet for finding a dog who can excel in one or more competitive sports.

Whenever I see a dog whose obedience I really like, almost always there are SchH/IPO dogs close up in the background of that dog's pedigree, and the breeder is or was personally involved in the sport. It seems that those breeders have done the best job of preserving genuine working ability in their lines.

So I do think that if you seriously want to do dog sports with a GSD, it is well worth taking a long and serious look at those breeders.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, like Merciel said, I wouldnt focus on only a title Haven. I know there's a club, NoCal GSD fanciers that has a lot of events at Lake Elisabeth in Fremont. You also have a lot of Schutzhund clubs in the Bay Area. Deleta has one in Hollister. I'd say go around as much as possible and see the dogs, meet the people. See which ones match what you'd like.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I can recommend a litter , sire was a dual police dog , retired when his handler , the dept Chief retired, went for other training and certified as SAR . Dam comes from line dense in working SAR / narcotic / bomb / police dogs .
My breeding on both --- but not my dogs . So not my litter.

Experienced trainer and evaluator raised them and tested them. Should be a shoe-in for any detection, tracking , obedience .


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Look into Cindy Reed and True Haus kennels. I've seen a few of her dogs work, they're really nice, and you'll get the obedience/drive you want out of them. Mycobracr on the forum (look him up) has a dog from her, he posts videos and pictures, she seems like a great worker at a very young age.

If I was out on the west coast, that would definitely be a breeder I'd be looking into.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

vom Patiala German Shepherds | Breeder of Working-line German Shepherds

Ajay's website is outdated, but he is up in that area. Very sound dogs with excellent drive for working and obedience.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I think there are many dogs bred for IPO that could possibly do very well in AKC obedience venues as well. I got my female with IPO intentions and finished her CD this past weekend with 3 first place scores.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dawnandjr said:


> My bitch was ranked in the top 10 back in 2009 and 2010. She is working line. *I would think any working line will take you there*.


What a ridiculous statement.

Working lines have tons of breeders who haven't a clue what they're doing and putting dogs together willy-nilly for the straight back or sable color, just like the show lines have tons of breeders that oughtn't be breeding and are producing problems.

These working line dogs are no less likely to produce a dog that will take the owner to the championships as any other dog. Just because you are going with a WL dog, does not mean you can ignore where the dog is coming from, the knowledge of the breeders, etc.

Getting a dog through a CD is not that big of a deal, but getting a sire and dam through an OTCH would stack the deck in your favor when it comes to getting a pup that can follow in their footsteps. Dogs that have other significant accomplishments behind them can most likely produce what it takes as well.

Yes, a dedicated owner that is willing to persevere with a less than the full package can maybe get to that level, but that wouldn't be the norm, I don't think. Heck with all the WL dogs on this site, only a handful of people have persevered enough to put any title whatsoever on their dogs. 

There are no shortcuts when it comes to finding a breeder, but narrowing the field considerably by placing a level or performance on the potential sire and dam can cut away a lot of the litters/breeders they are not interested in, which gives them more time to focus on their short-list.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Ok...lets be serious. You won't find this pair. I just looked up the statistics and TWO GSDs received an OTCH in 2013, and none in 2012. I'll assume the numbers weren't much bigger in the years prior to that. So you'll be lucky to find a breeding where ONE of the parents has an OTCH.

I'll say this...an OTCH, takes commitment on the part of the owner/handler/trainer, and consistency and dependability on the part of the dog. Sure, you need working ability, but the truth is, any breed is capable of an OTCH. You don't need the same drives that many of us value in IPO in the AKC ring. I've actually seen it where the drive/power we value in IPO is a detriment in AKC because the dogs do things with speed and power and then end up losing points for bumping handlers or being inches out of position. An OTCH...is all about those points, and getting 195/200 or higher, in two classes in the same day, is a lot about the type of training and IMO somewhat less about the drive.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

The real problem with looking for an OTCH-OTCH pairing in GSDs is that they don't happen.

There aren't enough GSDs competing at high levels in AKC obedience for that to be a realistic option. Fewer than 40 living dogs nationwide in the breed have that title (I think it may actually be fewer than 30 by now, in fact). Of those that do, how many are spayed or neutered? How many are too old to breed? How many have issues that don't kill their competition chances but would knock them out of consideration in a serious, ethical breeding program?

And how many of those dogs would make good breeding partners for each other? Some of them are ASLs, some are WGSLs, some are WLs. I have no idea how many of them have complementary pedigrees within each line, but I would venture a guess that it's not 100%.

Further, there's limited overlap between top obedience competitors and top breeders. You can be a world-class trainer and know nothing whatsoever about how to breed a good dog. Conversely you can be a great breeder and only have middling competition scores (for yourself, anyway -- a great breeder with a long track record should have great scores to show from _other_ handlers, eventually). The skillsets needed to excel at each pursuit are not identical.

Even in Golden Retrievers and Border Collies it would be hard (but not totally impossible) to find an OTCH-OTCH pairing; you'd be better off setting the bar at UD/UDX and then looking for breeders who have consistently _produced_ dogs able to achieve OTCHs, even if they didn't personally train their own dogs to that level.

In GSDs, because of the limited numbers active in high-level AKC competition, I think the best approach is to look at IPO breeders who are successful in that venue, study how their dogs perform during the obedience portions specifically, and then look for proven results among the dogs that they've produced (since not that many IPO breeders are active in AKC obedience, let alone gunning for OTCHs, but they might _sell_ to people who do that).


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

some excellent breeders have been recommended .


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Thanks to All of You! 

(I'm not very savvy about posting so I think I'll just respond at the end of the thread so my apologies if it's confusing.)

Merciel: Your last two postings were VERY insightful especially for those of us not familiar with Schutzhund training. They ought to be required reading. I've read a few other threads and members have kindly discussed potential breeders; when we have a candidate I'll start a new thread asking for comments. Sadly, Julia Priest doesn't have any puppies and won't anytime soon. Question: Is the IPO rating a relatively sufficient mark to assure us of a quality dog or is there a more advanced level that would be a better indicator?

Martemchik: Your comment (and Steve's most recent post) about the rarity of GSD OTchs really puts the nail in the coffin. The world of GSDs has clearly moved on to Schutzhund training. I've glanced at the True Haus Kennels site. As it is clearly off-topic for this thread, is there another thread on germanshepherds.com that you would recommend that addresses the merit or the demerit of attack training?

Steve Strom: Now that I've focused on Schutzhund, as you suggested, there are many clubs near SF Bay Area. There are also at least a couple of Schutzhund trainers here in Santa Rosa who might be able to make recommendations.

Selzer: Like Merciel, a posting that should almost be required reading. I most definitely will consider what a breeder has achieved for her/his own GSDs. We will steer clear of breeders who are in effect mini-puppy mills.

Carmspack: You wrote you "can recommend a litter, sire was a dual police dog..." Could you tell me which one?

Gatordog: Congratulations on your CD!

lhczth: Ajay's website is outdated but he appears to be in the East Bay. I'll check him out.

Once again MANY THANKS to all who have responded.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Haven said:


> Question: Is the IPO rating a relatively sufficient mark to assure us of a quality dog or is there a more advanced level that would be a better indicator?


That... well, that's its own huge can of worms.

I'll just give you the criteria that I personally settled on for myself. (Context, in case it's helpful: once I have an opening for another dog [so probably not for quite a few years], my plan is to go for the very best all-around performance puppy I can find, with an eye toward competing at high levels in AKC sports and potentially dabbling in IPO. I want an OTCh dog, or at least a dog where the limiting factor in the partnership is my lack of skill as a trainer and not my dog being literally insane.)

-- The breeder has personally trained and trialed at least one dog to an IPO3. Doesn't necessarily have to be the dog that's being bred, although of course that would be great if it works out that way;

-- The breeder has personally trained and trialed at least one dog in AKC venues (obedience and agility preferred, Open or higher level preferred); the point here is that I want a breeder who has firsthand experience with the different environmental pressures of those venues and is familiar with the slightly different training and temperament demands of those sports. You can't always just plug-and-play an IPO dog in AKC obedience. _Sometimes_ you can, but not always, and I personally am looking for a breeder who knows the difference;

-- Both dogs in the breeding pair have at least an IPO1 or a CDX. This is where I'm personally setting the bar for "okay, both sire and dam have shown evidence that they are capable of excellence in these sports." You might put it higher or lower, I dunno. Coupled with my other criteria, IPO1 and CDX are sufficient for me to feel comfortable that the dogs are suitable for my purposes, so that's where I put it for my own consideration;

-- I really like what I've seen from dogs out of that program, either via _lots_ of videos (of both trials and training) or seeing them work in person;

-- all appropriate health tests and certifications are in order;

and

-- Prior dogs produced from this program have a proven track record of accomplishments in IPO and/or AKC venues (thereby demonstrating that the breeder is not only a decent competitor but is capable of producing dogs who can replicate or exceed the breeder's own results, and that other sport people have made votes of confidence in the program by taking their dogs. This one is important to me because I suck at puppy evaluations and so to some extent I have to rely on the judgments of others to bear out my own).

It's not uncommon for an IPO breeder to sell primarily to IPO competitors, so sometimes really good kennels won't have a lot of representation in AKC venues, and the representation they do have might not consist entirely of scores that blow your socks off. That's not a problem for me, especially if the dogs are being run by less experienced handlers (i.e., if I see a dog that's pulling mid- to high 180s in Novice A, to me that's a plus, because those are good scores for a newbie. But if I see a dog that's pulling the same mid-180s in Novice B, never goes beyond that, and the handler's other three dogs all scored in the mid-190s straight up through Utility and this dog is the only one who ever topped out that low, _then_ maybe I'm not quite so sanguine about that string of numbers).


All this stuff is negotiable, of course. But those are the standards I made up for my own Imaginary Future Puppy consideration.

Also, I do like all the breeders whose names have been suggested for your consideration so far. I'm more familiar with some than others, but I think those are all good recommendations.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm not sure what attack training has to do with anything (I've never seen her website). I just know her, and I have trained/titled in her chosen sport (SDA). If you contact mycobrasr, he can tell you more about it as he works with her weekly and is their training helper.

Personally, the more a trainer/breeder can show their dogs can do, just shows that they’re willing to do anything and have the nerve to accomplish whatever their handler throws at them. That’s really all I care about when I get a puppy. Will the dog do what I want?

My dog (first dog ever) went from doing AKC obedience, to AKC rally, to AKC agility, and now we’re doing SDA and IPO. He can do all those things. Not at an OTCH level (99% due to me) but he is excited/happy to do whatever I throw at him. If he wasn’t, it would affect MY enjoyment of the activity I want to do. So just because a breeding pair might be trained in some sort of “attack” work (my dog is at this point)…doesn’t mean the puppies are going to need that or have that genetically engrained in them…you’ll just know that more than likely they’re capable of that if 4 years from now it’s something that you get into.

Some people will argue with me…but my dog’s “attack” training is that I can turn him on/off of a target with commands. So I can tell him to get “suspicious/bark” at something/someone and then I can just as easily tell him to calm down and walk nicely next to me because it’s not a real threat. His temperament…doesn’t turn him on to random people/threats and he will not attack a stranger “just because.” The barking…would turn into a bite if the threat gets close enough, or the threat does keep coming.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Schutzhund/IPO is what YOU make of it, both in doing it and how you use it to evaluate dogs. It is not "attack training". The knowledge I have gained doing Schutzhund with a few of my dogs is irreplaceable. Also the experience doing SchH with my current breeding dog and what it has taught me about him (like what traits his pedigree is actually expressing) has been invaluable. I personally put a LOT of emphasis on Schutzhund but not just getting a title. It is about the process. Having done it, I understand what goes into it and what can be learned about a dog in the process. I do not make breeding or buying decisions simply based on whether or not a dog has a SchH title. The entire context matters. I like to actually SEE the dog working (and meet the dog casually), and I also weigh what I know about the breeder/owner/trainer, how they train, what types of dogs they train and how that influences my decision.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Merciel: WOOOOOOOW!!! Your reply is exactly what I would have written to start this thread if I had had the knowledge. Now I have some specific parameters in current terms of what to look for. The challenge will be finding a breeder that matches the requirements here in the SF Bay Area (heck, we'd be willing to travel anywhere on the Left Coast to bring home the right puppy!)

Martemchik: Your last paragraph regarding "attack" training answered an important question for us. We'd very much like to have the ability to "turn off" of a target. I sent a message to mycobraracr, and I look forward to his reply. And... congratulations on your dog's achievements!

Liesje: Your reply makes extremely good sense. However, since my training experience is thirty years out-of-date and strictly with AKC Obedience Training will I be too ignorant to judge a breeder firsthand? (I do intend to start a new thread if we can find a breeder with puppies to ask for forum comments on the breeder.)

Thanks again all!


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I hope Cindy's kennel is within driving distance for you, that way you can go check it out. If you've worked dogs before, I'm sure you'll be able to see the qualities you want in a dog. I would just start going to training facilities. IPO, SDA, bitework places are going to be majority GSD and you'll be able to talk to people and ask them where they got their dogs. If they're not the breeder, I'm sure they'll point you to their breeder. Just start going around, visiting the dogs, seeing what people are doing. Many training clubs have one or two breeders that go there (if not more) and you’ll probably be able to see more than a few of their dogs at one place. See how alike or how different the dogs are. See if that breeder can guarantee you what you want even if you’re not getting the “best sport dog of the litter.”


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)




----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi All: I've struck out again. James Reed at True Haus replied to my email and told me there's a 6 to 8 month waiting list for male puppies. We want the right dog but we don't want to wait that long which means we'll just have to extend how far we're willing to travel. So let's add any breeders in the Western U.S. that you may know.

The only nearby breeder mentioned by multiple people who has puppies so far is Deleta Jones at K9 Ambassador. Does anyone have first hand knowledge of any of her dogs?

Carmspack: What a gorgeous dog!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I know of a really nice 6mth old Iron von den Wolfen puppy for sale. Already started in all three phases of IPO. He's in Maryland so you would have to ship.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Other than some of the breeders already mentioned, I might look into vom Theishof in Boise. Heidi trains and titles her own dogs. They are west German show line. She is not a large scale breeder and from what I've experienced, very respected for training her dogs and earning their titles (not sending them away to get a title so they can be bred based on having titles). I have met her (she handled one of my dogs for me years back), seen some of her dogs compete, and met a puppy bred by her and have always been impressed.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Jax08: We're looking for a puppy preferably 10 weeks old as we wouldn't want to miss that magical time in a dog's life.

Liesje: You and Mycobraracr (who I been exchanging messages with) bring up an interesting question. We've been searching for a local breeder because we can drive the puppy home (even Boise is only a 12 hour drive.) Is it hard on a puppy to have it shipped long distances by air? We're willing to pay to have the puppy shipped; it's just that we thought it wouldn't be a good idea for the dog and it would be difficult to check out the breeder (although it does seem that we could then select a nationally renown breeder.)

Liesje: K9 Ambassador in Hollister, California has a few puppies available. As a moderator, can you tell me whether I should list their pedigrees in this thread and ask for comments or should I start a new thread?

Thanks Everyone!


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Shipping doesn't seem to affect them at all. A sound puppy is a sound puppy. Here are a few pictures of my most recent pain in my... I mean bundle of joy after his flight from Alaska. These are in the Airport Parking lot fresh off the plain.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, you may ask about specific breeders, dogs, and litters, however members cannot breeder bash, so generally anything negative will be sent privately via PMs.

I've been lucky that so far, I haven't had a puppy shipped, but I would not hesitate to do that if that was the best pup/fit. In fact, I have shipped a puppy from MI to FL, just haven't been on the receiving end. One pup was 2 hours away, one 4 hours away, and another more like 12 hours away but my friends were already making a road trip and brought my puppy back for me (I gave them a gas card, people snacks, and some care packages for each puppy).


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Haven said:


> Hi All: I've struck out again. James Reed at True Haus replied to my email and told me there's a 6 to 8 month waiting list for male puppies. We want the right dog but we don't want to wait that long which means we'll just have to extend how far we're willing to travel. So let's add any breeders in the Western U.S. that you may know.
> 
> The only nearby breeder mentioned by multiple people who has puppies so far is Deleta Jones at K9 Ambassador. Does anyone have first hand knowledge of any of her dogs?
> 
> Carmspack: What a gorgeous dog!


Yeah Haven, I've seen quite a few of her dogs. Ello, Diego, the young male she trials now, a few of her females, a couple of her litters and a few more trialing with their owners. You should meet Deleta and see the dogs for yourself though. 

Personally, I'd talk to Deleta first, but Randy Tyson is another close option for you. 

Witmer-Tyson Imports - German Shepherds, Law Enforcement Training, and Equipment

You could probably go out to Menlo Schutzhund and see a few of their dogs, maybe Ajay Singh too.

Menlo Park Schutzhund Club: Welcome!

I don't know of any breeders associated with the club, but there's New World Schutzhund club right in Santa Rosa:

New World Schutzhund Club |


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I think Christina Clay from vom Donau Ries trains at Menlo Park SchH club as well. I have met a few of her dogs and they were nice!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Mspiker & Steve Strom: I'll send emails to Zwinger vom Donau-Ries and Witmer-Tyson Imports and to the New World Schutzhund Club. I'll also look for upcoming Schutzhund events throughout the Bay Area. Thanks Steve for your comments on Deleta. See my next post.

Thanks!


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi All: The first recommended breeder to have available puppies is Deleta Jones at K9 Ambassador in Hollister. She has puppies bred from two sets of parents: 

ZB: V Foxi vom Gleisdreieck SchH 1 was bred to SG Finn vom Metterursprung IPO3 WUSV 2013 World team member & 2013 Canadian champion & our own Diego-Armando von der Roggenstraße. (dual sires?)

“Carla” Taidy Von Karthago and Diego-Armando von der Roggenstraße SchH3

The names have hot links to the pedigreedatabase. What should I be looking for?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I think a decent midrange GSD will fulfill what the OP is looking for.

The good news is it should be a lot easier to find an AKC star then it is to find a top contender for IPO.

OP I would just look for a pup with decent drives, biddability with an acceptable nervebase (social, no fear reactions). Should be pups like this all up and down both sides of the USA. 

Your venue is more about the handler then it is about the dog. 

Some breeders mentioned produce a lot of drive in their litters. If you dont train in drive then dealing with such a dog especially if it has a half decent level of hardness or independence will be interesting for the unprepared.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

go to a few trials and see the environment that you will be working in.

the akc type obedience is often indoors in some arena .

there is often more than one event going on at the same time.

you may have another obedience ring right beside yours in use , or you may have a conformation show not far from you with dogs running around the circle and people moving about and cheering them on .

constant motion and commotion, announcers , speaker feed-back , presence of lots of other dogs .

you can't have a dog that can't cap .

there is no home field advantage .


----------



## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

In terms of what to look for in an OTCH prospect . . there is the usual stuff, parents should have hip and elbow certifications, working or performance titles throughout the pedigree, the breeder should be ethical. An OTCH campaign can take several years, so longevity of working life becomes an important consideration. With that said, here are a few specific things to consider:

Physical traits 
Good fronts with sufficient length of upper arm and shoulder layback - need sufficient angulation for repetitive jumping to reduce impact on joints
Moderate rear angulation - avoid excessive rear angulation as can lead to torn ACLs
Balanced movement - is energy channeled into smooth, efficient movement or is it being channeled upward into spine or pounding joints 
Avoid roached toplines - can lead to spondylosis and arthritic spines
More square than long - dogs with shorter bodies can have tighter sits and can turn tighter on retrieves
Firm ligamentation - loosely ligamented dogs are more prone to soft tissue injury
Parents should give an impression of overall athleticism and vigor 
Always a bonus to see parents and grandparents still working at an advanced age.
Smaller to medium size 

Temperament traits
Some of this is dependent on your training style. For example, "old school" handlers might need a harder dog.
Moderate pack drive - willingness, natural focus on handler
Strong work ethic - a dog that constantly wants to work with you is a joy 
Avoid dog aggression - important to avoid issues on OOS stays and in crowded OB venues
Strong retrieving instincts - this just makes everything easier 
Moderate amount of prey - extreme prey drive can be detrimental if trialing around small dogs - issues with distractibility 
When you get to the upper levels of AKC obedience, your dog will need to work independently. Nice to see a pup that will confidently explore new environments.
Environmental stability is crucial - AKC agility and obedience venues can be crowded, hectic, lots of noise, etc. You want a pup that can handle this with ease.

I've seen exceptional dogs from Sontausen, von Grunheide, and True Haus. Maybe these breeders don't have puppies right away - but a great puppy is worth waiting for!

Fwiw, the puppy evaluation section in "Schutzhund: Theory & Training Methods" by Barwig is exceptional. If you are serious about looking for a performance prospect, there are some great books by Pat Hastings - "Another Piece of the Puzzle: Puppy Development" and "Structure in Action: The Makings of a Durable Dog". I wish you all the best in your search!


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

A great puppy definitely is worth waiting for...


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Haven said:


> Mspiker & Steve Strom: I'll send emails to Zwinger vom Donau-Ries and Witmer-Tyson Imports and to the New World Schutzhund Club. I'll also look for upcoming Schutzhund events throughout the Bay Area. Thanks Steve for your comments on Deleta. See my next post.
> 
> Thanks!


NW Regionals is later this month just outside Sacramento.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

carmspack said:


> go to a few trials and see the environment that you will be working in.
> 
> the akc type obedience is often indoors in some arena .
> 
> ...


nothing like the sit stay with agility in the next ring. Especially when the tunnel is 6 feet behind your dog with border collies racing through at Mach 10.

or people changing jump heights in the next ring and just dropping the extra panels right beside you while doing an off-leash heel.

ETA: the bang of the boards made me jump about 5 feet. Singe just cocked his head


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like the OP knows what shows are like if their dog was ranked 29th in the country. 

I guess I might want the sire or the dam to be an OTCH and the other to be a competitor. I would probably not go with a working line dog, if that is not what I am used to. Sorry. 

I don't get the, just any working line dog'll do, or a mid-drive working line, or it's easier to find than an IPO competitor statements. It is comparing apples to oranges. 

IPO is GSDs, Mals, maybe Dobermans and Rottweilers -- all pretty much working dogs competing against other working dogs. No border collies or Goldens (yes, there is always the exception), but going for an OTCH, you ARE competing primarily against BCs and Goldens, as well as a lot of breeds you would never see in schutzhund. And, yes some of these dogs, the BCs are drivey, intelligent, and superstars in obedience. It's like a whole other ball game. 

I am not saying a working line person cannot get their WL dog to excel in AKC events. Of course they can. Just like show line dogs can excel in them. But, the OP should be encouraged to describe what they are looking for in a dog, what temperament traits are most important, what lines they are familiar with, what their expectations are. You need a good dog to compete in Obedience to any sort of ranking -- not just any old dog can do that. Any old dog can get titled if the owner knows what they are doing and have a bit of persistence, but not just any dog is going to give you what the BCs and the Goldens can in a sport that seems designed specifically for them. 

If you want to do a sport, then go to someone who produces dogs that can do a sport. If you want to compete in a sport, then go to someone who has success competing in that venue.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi All:

Just a note to thank you all for your recent posts. I've had a busy day and so I'm a behind in responding. I'll try to get a full response to everyone since my last post tomorrow. 

Many, many, thanks!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Exceptional obedience is exceptional obedience. It doesn't matter if you are handing a BC, a Golden or a GSD and it doesn't matter if you are competing in IPO or AKC. It takes a willing, guidable, easily motivated dog with good nerves and then a truly exceptional and very motivated handler. To get those few extra points for wins and thus the OTCH involves a lot of training and a lot nit picking training from a rather OC handler. Many GSD do not deal well with this type of training because they, themselves, are not into drilling and nit picking. It is freaking boring to them (and to me which is one reasons I got involved in SchH). 

I have done both so speak from experience.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

*Responses to Posts*

In chronological order.

Blitzkrieg1: Your comments are very apt especially regarding fear reactions. Furthermore, in the past as well as in the future, we have/will train with knowledgeable handlers who can train us as well as our dog.

Carmspack: As always, sage advice.

Guardyan: What a fantastic post! I immediately ordered the book by Barwig. However, I doubt even after I've read the book that I will have the ability to determine the physical and temperament traits of puppies. Are there any methods that I can use to test for the most important especially as my wife and I will be looking at puppies at K9 Ambassador in just nine days?

Holland: Although I agree with you, we are reeling under the loss of our GSD. As such, we've decided to spend the money if needed to travel/ship a GREAT puppy instead of waiting for one locally.

Mspiker03: We fully intend to travel to the Regionals, and hopefully meet many of the local forum members and to see all the dogs. I just wish there were more local events.

Dainerra: I couldn't agree more. Although when I competed in AKC Obedience with our first GSD, the biggest problem was finding a place where my wife could watch without our dog knowing where she was even in crowds exceeding a hundred people.

Selzer: Good post and excellent point. My wife and I have always liked enthusiastic dogs, the puppy that leads the pack chasing after the ball, but after our second GSD we also want one which is not skittish. Probably a hard combination to find. After all the great advice in this post, I feel a bit more up-to-date with the GSD world. I, therefore, intend to pursue at least an IPO1 instead of an OTch and probably Agility or even, as one member has told me her GSD is on a flyball team, flyball (what a kick!)

Lhczth: Boy are you ever right about the "nit picking!" And, I doubt the AKC Obedience Trials have gotten less so in the nearly 30 years we been away. Nevertheless, I do realize that training a GSD to get an IPO is a serious commitment, but I bet the fun we had being around other dog handlers won't have changed either.

To All: I'd like to say that I realize I am the beggar to the feast. I cannot give advice so I decided the least I could do was to contribute to keeping the forum alive so I have upgraded my membership to Lifetime. Thanks everyone!


----------



## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

> Guardyan: What a fantastic post! I immediately ordered the book by Barwig. However, I doubt even after I've read the book that I will have the ability to determine the physical and temperament traits of puppies. Are there any methods that I can use to test for the most important especially as my wife and I will be looking at puppies at K9 Ambassador in just nine days?


 I think the Barwig text will be helpful for you, as it includes several simple tests for evaluating temperament. You might also consider reading about the Volhard temperament test (Volhard Dog Training and Nutrition: Behavior and Training: Behavior ). Of course the breeder should be the most helpful resource for you. Hopefully they have spent the previous weeks observing the pups, carefully considering their temperaments and physical characteristics. The best way for you to help a breeder match you correctly with a pup is to know what you are looking for in a dog, as well as to communicate that clearly with the breeder. What are your goals? What specific traits are you looking for? (e.g. what energy level are you comfortable with) The breeder can then help you make an informed decision as to which puppy is right for you.

IMHO, confidence, stability, and retrieving instincts are what I would be looking for in a litter unknown to me. Does that puppy confidently walk into a new area - exploring and curious with an upright, relaxed posture? Does he exhibit a fearful reaction toward novel stimuli (e.g. umbrella) or does he jump right in? Does he retrieve a crumpled ball of paper or does the little stinker run off with it? Fwiw, temperament tests are really just a snapshot and a responsible breeder should be able to steer you toward the most suitable prospect.

Just want to say I think it's awesome that you are doing your homework prior to purchasing a puppy and that you are planning on getting involved in training. German Shepherds are so intelligent and the training process truly enriches their lives (and ours).


----------



## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

I think the Barwig text will be helpful for you, as it includes several simple tests for evaluating temperament. You might also consider reading about the Volhard temperament test (Volhard Dog Training and Nutrition: Behavior and Training: Behavior ). Of course the breeder should be the most helpful resource for you. Hopefully they have spent the previous weeks observing the pups, carefully considering their temperaments and physical characteristics. The best way for you to help a breeder match you correctly with a pup is to know what you are looking for in a dog, as well as to communicate that clearly with the breeder. What are your goals? What specific traits are you looking for? (e.g. what energy level are you comfortable with) The breeder can then help you make an informed decision as to which puppy is right for you.

IMHO, confidence, stability, and retrieving instincts are what I would be looking for in a litter unknown to me. Does that puppy confidently walk into a new area - exploring and curious with an upright, relaxed posture? Does he exhibit a fearful reaction toward novel stimuli (e.g. umbrella) or does he jump right in? Does he retrieve a crumpled ball of paper or does the little stinker run off with it? Fwiw, temperament tests are really just a snapshot and a responsible breeder should be able to steer you toward the most suitable prospect.

Just want to say I think it's awesome that you are doing your homework prior to purchasing a puppy and that you are planning on getting involved in training. German Shepherds are so intelligent and the training process truly enriches their lives (and ours).


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

your comment re "Lhczth: Boy are you ever right about the "nit picking!" And, I doubt the AKC Obedience Trials have gotten less so in the nearly 30 years we been away. Nevertheless, I do realize that training a GSD to get an IPO is a serious commitment, but I bet the fun we had being around other dog handlers won't have changed either"

The nit picking is not the politics or competitiveness among the handlers trialing. My experience is that the obedience crowd is much more supportive .

I believe the nit picking Lisa was talking about is that you need a certain type of dog that has a lot of willingness because to keep those points you are going to be demanding on the dog --- AND -- the exercises can be a bit static and nit-picky without the dog having anything to look forward which will discharge tension or get a reward , like the bite , or the dynamic running , or barking .
The dog is under a lot of control . 
Yet , animated performance is definitely looked for.
Nothing worse than a dog which looks like it is heading for the gallows . Or just stopping .


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Guardyn: What a great site and immediately useful. The Volhard website even provides a downloadable PDF that we can take with us. 

Several people recommended Julia Priest, but she doesn't have any dogs available, and her waiting list is approximately a year long; however, Julia did recommend Deleta Jones (the breeder whose puppies were going to see) and Steve Strom also recommends Deleta and calls her trustworthy; moreover, as several members have recommended, Deleta trains and competes with her own dogs. Lhczth, extremely kindly, reviewed the pedigrees of the puppies and found no significant flaws (although I know that's no guarantee) (nevertheless, Lhczth's understanding of pedigrees blew me away!) As such, I feel pretty good about Deleta. 

All that said, if none of the puppies work for us, we'll consider shipping. Carmspack has a breeder she trusts in Oregon, and a couple of members have recommended Alder-Stein in Los Angeles. Question: If we need to ship, does it open up the entire U.S.? Is there some limit on how long a puppy should fly? 

I'm very confident that if we go that route members will be able to point me to a great breeder with great puppies. It would almost be fun to see if members could narrow it down to two or three breeders back East. I just wish there were as many breeders to choose from out West.

Carmspack: I didn't do a good job of explaining because I did think of "nit picking" the way you explained, and, naturally, I agree with you completely.

Thanks again everyone!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Haven said:


> All that said, if none of the puppies work for us, we'll consider shipping. Carmspack has a breeder she trusts in Oregon, and a couple of members have recommended Alder-Stein in Los Angeles. Question: If we need to ship, does it open up the entire U.S.? Is there some limit on how long a puppy should fly?


Yes, and no. Because of the new legislation, many good breeders are choosing not to ship puppies so that they do not fall under the USDA guidelines. It's hard to wait, but, waiting could get you the dog you want.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Selzer: I'm almost afraid to ask, what the heck does the Department Of Agriculture have to do it?!!!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Haven said:


> Selzer: I'm almost afraid to ask, what the heck does the Department Of Agriculture have to do it?!!!



There is a new rule passed within the last year, that people who ship even one puppy/dog to an owner, they fall under USDA control. And if you sell a dog not born and raised on your property, you fall under the USDA. I think that what we are going to see is even more pronounced differences in the breed due to their region. But that is not what this thread is about, so I will try to find a link to the other thread.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...usda-regulations-shipping-puppies-buyers.html


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Selzer: I followed the link. What a contentious thread! 

Bottom line, if we need to travel to pick up the puppy, we will. Call me a crazy Calfornian, but our animal companions are precious to us. We have and would again borrow money if necessary to have a GSD's hip replaced. And, it seems to me, that if we have to spend more money to get a great puppy, we'll have to spend less money down the road.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My breeder ships puppies. Jody Potter in NYS. I highly recommend her.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

T-Rex vom Kriegerhaus PT CD RA

T Rex now has his OTCH.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

You can also look at vom Haus Vianden in Idaho. She has TRex's sire, actually frozen semen as he just recenly passed away.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Meet Jamie bred from Diego-Armando von der Roggenstraße and Taidy Von Karthago by trainer Deleta Jones at K9 Ambassador. He scored 2’s & 3’s on the Volhard’s Puppy Aptitude Testing we performed. He came to us crate trained and knows several Schutzhund commands already. Like all five puppies we saw at Deleta’s he is people oriented. What we particularly liked was that he was also ball oriented and tugged readily at the blanket. Is he going to achieve his IPO 1? No question! Will he also be a great companion? Absolutely!

I’d like to summarize what I’ve learned from this thread for anyone who might have similar questions in the future.

1) In the last 30 years, GSD training has moved from AKC Obedience to Schutzhund training almost exclusively. Only a handful of GSDs get their OTch’s every year, and this makes sense because Schutzhund training accurately reflects the temperament of the German Shepherd; whereas, AKC Obedience has dissolved into nit picking the differences between Border Collies.

2) There are few recognized breeders on the West Coast in general, and very few in the San Francisco Bay Area. Finding a breeder recommended by more than one forum member was tough.

3) Most forum members feel that a good GSD breeder should also train and show their own dogs so that they have a personal commitment in breeding dogs that will succeed in Schutzhund.

4) Puppies bred from “known” dogs have recognizable pedigrees that can help predict what kind of dogs the puppies will grow into. It blows me away that there are forum members like Carmspack and Lhczth who can know so much that they can do this.

5) It can take several months even a year to find the right dog here on the West Coast. My wife and I were prepared not to find a puppy at Deleta’s and to then have to considerably broaden our search (which reinforces our intent to have two dogs so that there is not such an emotional hole in our lives after losing one.) That we found Jamie was not an act of acceptance but a joy at having five wonderful dogs to chose from.

6) And finally, germanshepherd.com forum members are FANTASTIC! The advice I received was incredible. We made a serious mistake in choosing our last GSD, but because of the advice I received not only in this thread but in exchanging messaging I KNOW that this time we have a great puppy.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

What a cutie.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

good luck , still planning on the OTCH , AKC obedience route or are you now doing schutzhund , I mean IPO?

just one thing , I really really don't like the Vollard test - not for a working dog .


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Congratulations on the new pup!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If he is truly a good IPO prospect expect that cute bed to get eaten forthwith. Wouldnt leave a pup alone with bed or blanket, not saying that you are..just saying.. Nice looking dog.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Beautiful pup! 

Not fond of the Volhard test either, I prefer the breeder's assessment as they have watched the pup grow. 

AKC gets a bad rap sometimes but I still compete in obedience and other performance events. I disagree that GSD training is almost exclusively IPO training. IPO has gained popularity but you still see lots of GSD's competing well in AKC.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think OP was saying that the majority of highly competitive dogs and people are now more in IPO than they are in AKC. If you go to an all-breed AKC club show…you’ll be lucky to see one or two GSDs in the ring, where as you have many more GSDs in Schutzhund. Part of that is probably that an IPO3 title is much more achievable (IMO at least) than an otch title. And the other part is of course that an IPO3 title due to history is seen as more important to the breeding and testing of our breed than an otch title…so the people looking to breed and stick with the history of the breed will do IPO over AKC events.

I’m a member of one of, if not the biggest regional GSDCA clubs. We just held our specialty shows and trials and we didn’t even get 10 dogs to trial in each level. Novice had like 3 or 4 dogs and none of those dogs/people could even dream of an otch eventually. I believe in the 60 or so year history of the club…we’ve had ONE Otch GSD at the club, and there are some pretty competitive AKC obedience people in there. Just not enough of them…


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi All:

Thanks for the kind words. So if the Volhard test is out, can someone provide me with a link to a better test. Obviously, I don't need it now, but I will need it when we get our next GSD in two? three? four? years. (I bet there's a thread discussing the the best gap between a first and second GSD.)

Martemchik: Even when we went to the AKC Western U.S. Competition with my first GSD thirty years ago, there weren't that many GSDs in the top 100 Western dogs (I seem to recall about ten.) At that time, Golden retrievers were the majority, but already being supplanted by Border Collies. It's not that AKC Obedience isn't instructive for a GSD; it's simply that IPO is more relevant to the breed.

Blitzkrieg 1: How did you know?! I left Jamie alone for five minutes, and when I came back he had a blue muzzle. According to what I've learned, he's at the age where his baby teeth are being replaced by his adult teeth, and he's chewing on EVERYTHING except his Nylabones & rawhide bones which he chews for about five minutes and then buries them underneath his mats.

Once again, THANKS ALL!
Stuart (aka Haven)


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is a link that might come in handy now http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html

there are no tests -- experience, observation, familiarity with the line and how drives present themselves within that family.

I wouldn't have had you conduct a "test" especially the Volhard -- You could have asked me to show you something and I would have demonstrated the dog as the dog IS , a true representation of the dog at that moment making choices and responding with what is natural to the dog .


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Only GSD _I had that I would trust alone with a bed was 9 years old..lol. Not worth the cost of the operation to surgically remove the thing from their stomach. All have mine have been happy on the bare plastic._


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There isn't a good test. The breeder should just figure out what type of puppy will fit your household and what you'll be doing with the dog.

The issue with any test that rates dogs on a scale...is that a 3 to me, might look like a 5 to you due to our different prior experience. So the scale really doesn't work when you're dealing with people that don't have a lot of experience testing puppies using that said scale. Which most people don't have.

I'm sure your dog will be great, but most of us don't choose our own puppies. We let the breeder place the right dog in our household as they're able to see the puppies and compare them to each other for who has more drive, who is more independent, who is a bit pushier, ect. Nothing you do in 30 minutes or an hour, or even a day, will tell you as much as the breeder should already know about the dogs.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi Martemchik & Carmspack: The very first thing we did was talk to Deleta at length about our experiences, who we are and where we live, and what we were looking for. Then as Deleta brought out puppies she advised us to each of their natures. I'm sure she wouldn't have let us get a puppy ill-fitted for us. 

You have to remember that most Forum members especially yourselves can tell a breeder the type of dog you are looking for not only because you know from your experiences having owned several GSDs but because you can explain using language the breeder will understand. Heck, Carmspack you're so incredibly knowledgeable about pedigrees you could probably tell the breeder specific famous dogs that have the characteristics you are looking for; in fact, you wouldn't even go to a breeder unless you were looking for a puppy from the pairing of the breeder's particular dam and sire. 

In contrast, my wife and I are totally clueless. So the few Volhard tests we did like holding the puppy on his back or seeing whether they would return a tossed ball was more instructive in showing US the nature of the individual puppy. If I gave the impression that we tallied up the points and made our decision based upon them, then I completely misled you.

Blitzkrieg 1: Thanks. I have noticed that most handlers don't use pads. On the other hand, Jamie is spending most of his 24 hours in a crate or in a pen on top of ceramic tiles; would using a pad decrease the likelihood of future hip problems?

Thanks All!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Funny, I can leave bedding in with my dogs once they are around a year. Up until that point it will be chewed if they are crated for too long. They are content in their crates and don't feel the need to stress and chew things up. I have had one dog that I couldn't and she would also tear up toys if I took my eyes off of her for a minute. She even managed to pull things into her crate to chew on. 

I have a test I use specifically for myself and my puppies. It usually doesn't tell me much I don't already see, but has come in handy when I tested litters for other people. It is hard, though, to test a litter that you only see one time especially when you don't have years of experience. And, as others said, what one person wants another may not care about. I, personally, could care less if a puppy brings anything back to me or retrieves to the hand, but I am very demanding about hunt drive, grip and environmental nerves.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no matter what stage you are at there is always , always room to learn more -- 
watch this Haven ---- so Lisa what don't you like about Dasty vom Gries? (does it have to do with Greif?)


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

OP, I got what you're saying no worries...my point was just that the test isn't really all that worthy.

So...you flipped a puppy on its back and watched it squirm. Well what does it tell you if it stopped instantly? What does it tell you if it took 15 seconds to stop? What does it tell you if it never stopped? Which puppy is better? That's my point. IMO, those things tell you very little, especially if you haven't done the test to 100s of puppies and then watched/followed them as they grew up to figure out what kind of dogs they turned into and then connected the dots.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Carmen, I had a very bad experience with a Dasty dogs and then I have found out some things about him from my friends in Germany. Just not a dog I care to have in a pedigree. IMO he doesn't offer anything positive except that he was very pretty.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Haven said:


> I have noticed that most handlers don't use pads. On the other hand, Jamie is spending most of his 24 hours in a crate or in a pen on top of ceramic tiles; would using a pad decrease the likelihood of future hip problems?



Cute puppy!

I don't use pads but I have a large collection of old towels that I use in the crate/kennel. That way if they have an accident, it gets absorbed (and most of my dogs are "clean" so they shove it aside if it gets soiled) rather than a puppy sliding around in pee on a hard surface. I've just found it's less mess and less discomfort for the puppy. I've never had issues with my puppies eating the towels. Once they get to be 6-8 months, they often go through a phase where I have to remove bedding, but by then they are house trained, crate trained, and can hold it. Then as they mature, I can usually add some bedding back in without it getting destroyed (or more likely, the dogs are no longer crated).


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I use towels too. We got a cheap pack of white towels (can be bleached!) at Costco, and until Halo was old enough to not chew her bedding, that's all she had. If she was crated when she didn't want to be (not at bedtime or when she was tired, for example), I wouldn't even put a towel in because she'd sometimes start to chew it, I'd just leave it on top of the crate. When she was tired and ready to sleep, I could put the towel back in and it would be fine. Towels were good for crating her in the car too, since she got carsick for awhile, even on very short trips. I'd just bring a couple extras and switch it out if she got sick.


----------



## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Congratulations on your puppy! She's adorable and I'm sure will be a lot of fun to work with.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi All

Carmspack & Martemchik & Lhczth: I think I get what you're saying especially about Dasty as it corresponds with our last GSD whose father was a well known ASL champion, Meet Joe Black, but after spending thousands of dollars, two nationally recognized trainers independently decided our GSD was "genetically" fear-aggressive and all we could do was manage his exposure to other people. 

An inexperienced buyer, like myself, must keep in mind that no test nor pedigree can be definitive or even a sure thing. It's better to rely upon "trustworthy-ness" and knowledge of the breeder. The good news is that Deleta was one of only three breeders in the Bay Area who was recommended by multiple Forum members (and she was also backed by the leader of the local Schutzhund group that I will be joining.) The bad news is that in a sense it brings us right back to the original question. (Keep in mind, if we hadn't liked any of Deleta's dogs, we would have had to extend the search area considerably perhaps as far as the East Coast.)

How does an inexperienced couple who want a fundamentally stable dog who will succeed in IPO find a breeder on the West Coast when there are so few who receive multiple recommendations?

Osito23 & Liesje: Thanks for your comments about Jamie. Doting Dads always appreciate such remarks.

lhczth & Liesje & Cassidy: Thanks for your input on bedding! Towels seem like a good way to go.

Thanks everyone!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

What I recommend is joining a club and experiencing the dogs yourself. If there are dogs that you feel are suitable for your level of experience and whose temperaments you like, then find out where the handlers got them. This is how I ended up with Treue. I found out about a litter through a club member. His current dog was also from the same breeder. I did some research on the breeder, saw that he had multiple dogs working in SchH and that he also titled dogs from his own program. I also liked the looks of the upcoming litter, did my research there and sent a deposit. Yes, I tend to do a lot of research and there was no WWW back then.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi Lisa: Sorry for the delay in responding; I came down with the flu on Friday, and we had to miss the Northwest Regionals which would have been our first exposure to Schutzhund trials. Nevertheless, I think you gave sound advice not only for me but for any who read this column. 

Fortunately, by following the advice of the members and by so limited of choices, I think we got a puppy that we would have got following your advice. I'm pleased to say that Jamie's brother, Ingo, (from a previous litter) took second place in the Northwest Regionals with our breeder, Deleta Jones, handling him (which I believe raises him from an IPO 2 to an IPO 3.) In addition, this Sunday Jamie and I will attend for our first time our local Schutzhund club, New World Schutzhund Club. So I hope to be more knowledgeable when we get a sister for Jamie in a few years and be able to put your advice to good use.

Thanks All


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I got to pet a puppy from Deleta at Nationals!


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

mpsiker03: If Deleta and her GSD, "Ingo", came in second, does that mean Ingo goes from an IPO 2 to an IPO 3, and is second sufficient to qualify her for the Nationals?

Thanks


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If she passed the IPO3 Ingo has an IPO3. If she passed the IPO2 Ingo has an IPO2 and can trial for the IPO3 when the dog is ready. 

In order to qualify for Nationals she must get 270 pts or higher as an IPO3 and also do a regional championship (which she has).


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

To qualify for nationals you need to get an IPO3 at a regional trial with a score of over 270. Placing doesn't matter.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Deleta and Lobo scored a 276.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

martemchik, your qualifying score can be at any trial the year before nationals and you only have to attend and trial at a regional championship. You do not need to pass and unless the rules have changed, you also do not have to attend the regionals as an IPO3 (a long as you have that 3 and qualifying score before nationals).


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

lhczth said:


> martemchik, your qualifying score can be at any trial the year before nationals and you only have to attend and trial at a regional championship. You do not need to pass and unless the rules have changed, you also do not have to attend the regionals as an IPO3 (a long as you have that 3 and qualifying score before nationals).



The way National qual is done is so ridiculous to me. A 270, at any trial, and a registration at a regional and BAM! You can go to Nationals. 

It would be much better if you had to have a qualifying score to go to Regionals, then place in the top 10 at regionals to qualify for Nationals.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> The way National qual is done is so ridiculous to me. A 270, at any trial, and a registration at a regional and BAM! You can go to Nationals.
> 
> It would be much better if you had to have a qualifying score to go to Regionals, then place in the top 10 at regionals to qualify for Nationals.



:thumbup: My wife and I just had this conversation. We went to a regional event recently and was not overly impressed with the majority of what we saw.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> The way National qual is done is so ridiculous to me. A 270, at any trial, and a registration at a regional and BAM! You can go to Nationals.
> 
> It would be much better if you had to have a qualifying score to go to Regionals, then place in the top 10 at regionals to qualify for Nationals.


Thanks for the explanation Lisa!

I do agree with gsdsar to a certain extent...the pencils are much sharper at regionals than they are at a club trial. I've seen how quickly a 295 at a club trial turns into a 265 at regionals. But...the problem with needing a top 10 score at regionals is that I think my region only had 5 dogs going for IPO3 there...so everyone would make it lol.

There would be like 20 dogs at nationals!


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Thanks for the explanation Lisa!
> 
> I do agree with gsdsar to a certain extent...the pencils are much sharper at regionals than they are at a club trial. I've seen how quickly a 295 at a club trial turns into a 265 at regionals.


This is what I don't like. An IPO3 should be an IPO3. Club level IMO should be graded the same way as any other level. Then scores should reflect accordingly. So if you score at a 265 at club level, at least you know it's a real 265.


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

mycobraracr said:


> :thumbup: My wife and I just had this conversation. We went to a regional event recently and was not overly impressed with the majority of what we saw.


I was at that event on Saturday (along with two other forum members)!


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

mspiker03 said:


> I was at that event on Saturday (along with two other forum members)!



Awesome! I was there on Sunday only.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If people had to get a 270 at regionals then our nationals would be a small trial and could not pay for itself. We already shrunk the nationals by requiring qualifying scores and then the requirement to attend regionals. We do not have the numbers here to do much more. Some regionals in this country are very small compared to others. Some are no bigger than a small club trial. There are years where we struggle to get enough entries to Nationals because of where it is hosted. We are not Germany.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Do you guys find that people try to enter nationals with teams that are legitimately not ready for that level of competition?

I don't have enough experience watching IPO (let alone top-caliber IPO) to know this, but like, I didn't even _think_ of entering Pongu in AKC nationals this year. We qualified, and it was only two and a half hours away, so I could easily have gone. But why? I knew my dog couldn't hack it at that level. In that environment, my scaredy dog would just get destroyed, so in reality there was no point entering even if on paper we were qualified to compete.

Assuming that IPO nationals works the same way -- i.e., teams that on paper have the requisite scores but, in reality, know they can't hack it don't enter -- then why would it be a problem if you only really need a 270 at any club trial to get in?

With a small sport, it seems like you'd want to err on the side of inclusiveness, and if the teams that actually do show up don't embarrass the sport, what's the harm?


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Merciel said:


> Do you guys find that people try to enter nationals with teams that are legitimately not ready for that level of competition?


 Yes, because until you have experienced it, sometimes you don't realize the difference. 





> With a small sport, it seems like you'd want to err on the side of inclusiveness, and if the teams that actually do show up don't embarrass the sport, what's the harm?


 Agree.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

All I know is that I won't bash anyone at a regional or national level until I can do better, myself.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

GatorDog said:


> All I know is that I won't bash anyone at a regional or national level until I can do better, myself.



Was someone bashing? Did I miss something again?


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi All:

I thought I had set it up to get an email when anyone posted to this thread but I only got one email saying lhczth had posted a reply so I'm a bit stunned by how much posting my little question evoked. 

Okay, so 270 is the magic number, but would someone please explain why the High In Trial did not win (placercountyschutzhundclub.com/results) or even place?!

Deleta with Jamie's brother, Ingo, did score 276 and is (now?) an IPO3 so she can go to the Nationals. As a couple of members have suggested, would it be worth the time and money considering that Ingo only scored a 276? And, where are the Nationals going to be held?

Thanks!


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Nationals is right outside of Cleveland this year. Nov 5-9. The actual trial is going on Friday through Sunday.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Why would Deleta want to pay to go to Cleveland in November?! Miami or New Orleans I might understand, but Cleveland in November?!

Haven (aka Wimpy Californian)


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Haven said:


> Hi All:
> 
> I thought I had set it up to get an email when anyone posted to this thread but I only got one email saying lhczth had posted a reply so I'm a bit stunned by how much posting my little question evoked.
> 
> ...


 The person who was high in trial did not win because they weren't from the region


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Haven said:


> Why would Deleta want to pay to go to Cleveland in November?! Miami or New Orleans I might understand, but Cleveland in November?!
> 
> Haven (aka Wimpy Californian)


Sarcasm?


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Holland: Thanks. I wouldn't have guessed from the name, North County Schutzhund Club, that it is actually in deep Southern California. What I still don't get is why she (or Deleta for the Nationals) would travel such long distances to attend trials.

Martemchik: Sarcasm? No. Weak humor? Yes. (I give my friend from Madison, Wisconsin a bad time too although I note he lives here now.) As I mentioned to Holland, I still don't quite understand. When we went to the AKC Western Obedience trials in Portland, Oregon almost 30 years ago, we principally went for the fun of it. Is that why most teams go? Teresa Cowart (the High In Trial) traveled almost as far as we did to attend a trial that wasn't even in her Region.

West Coast Forum Members: What's a decent guess-estimate of the number of IPO Trials in the West Coast yearly?

Thanks All!


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Menlo, probably 6 or so. So County combined with some other clubs, 3 or 4. Every club has to have 1. Joel Monroe's club in the valley looks like they have a pretty good amount. You can go to germanshepherddog.com and find them listed there Stuart.


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Steve: The link seems to be the right one, but I couldn't find the list. 

Stupid question: Why does every club have to hold a trial? Is there a rule about supplying non-club judges or against competing in you own club's trial? The 270 rule would seem a bit incestuous otherwise.

Thanks as always!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

USCA rules require our clubs to host a trial every other year. On the off years we can host a conformation show or a sanctioned helper seminar/classification (both also cost money to host and run). Clubs should want to host a trial and most hold at least one trial a year. Trials, though, are expensive. 

No, club trials are for club members so there is no reason why people can't trial in their own trials. Many clubs bring in the judges they like though USCA requires that in order to use the same judge the following year, there must be a trial with a different judge in between. Some clubs bring in SV or foreign judges. Some like to use only USCA judges. Many clubs find judges that they enjoy hosting though I have found some of the most fun judges also have the sharpest pencils. 

Most clubs would not want to trial under a club member or someone they train with regularly. I know my old club had a judge/member at one point (one of the founders of the club) and he never judged our trial. Not sure if this is a rule, just not done or because we all knew how tough he was and didn't want to trial under him.  I would have to ask.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The reason you go to nationals is that due to the "sliding scoring" system...a 290+ at nationals means A LOT more than a 290+ at a club trial. It gets your dog out there, your dog is noticed by the people at the top of the sport. If you are a breeder or a stud dog owner, demand for your dogs will increase. You'll get requests from all over the United States and that's the way we keep the genetics of our breed at least some what changing.

Too many breeders use local stock. Some get lucky and have someone in their region import a dog, or buy a dog from a breeder across the country that turns into a good stud dog...then they can get something different into their lines. But all in all, a lot stay local. Which isn't the best for our breed. National and world events give people and dogs a stage to impress a lot of people from many different areas of the country.

You also want to hold trials in temperate climates. Dogs and handlers get tired really quick in 80+ degree weather. So they like to hold national events in areas where you'll get moderate temperature. Also...you don't have to compete with tourism for hotel rooms...which brings costs down a lot for the competitors. I'm looking at going to nationals and my hotel will cost me less than $50 a night (possibly less due to connections). Imagine what I'd have to pay in a large city like Miami or New Orleans. I probably wouldn't go just to watch. And the goal of the host club should be to get as many people there as possible to buy stuff and spend their cash!


----------



## Haven (Sep 1, 2014)

Martemchik & Lhczth: What fantastic posts! 

Anyone new to Schutzhund trials (like myself) should read the following two posts to gain insight into the U.S. Schutzhund culture. In particular, why there are club trials and how they are run, and why there are Regional and National trials and where they are conducted.

On a personal note, although I wasn't able to attend the Northwest Regional Trials due to catching the flu the day before, it certainly explains why the organizers moved the starting time to the bleary eye-ed pre-dawn time of 6:00 am. They were PROTECTING THE DOGS from the expected heat (and also the smoke from a nearby huge California fire.)


----------

