# Lyme Disease



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Last night as I was petting Apollo I noticed a bump. Originally I though maybe some matting and as I pet him I realized it was more like a scab. After looking at it I could not determine if it was a tick or a bite wound from the fight he got into a couple weeks ago with Batman. So we went to the vet today and they couldn't determine if either. The scab isn't ready to come off and she felt it might be to big for a tick. So in order to hit it from all directions he is on Doxy and got a Lyme shot(second one in 3-4 weeks). The vet said in this case now would be a good time for the vaccine because of the antibodies. Anybody have experience with this? She will recheck the area when he goes back in for the second shot. She also gave ointment for the area and some gauze soaked in a cleaning solution for that area. Depending on what we find or don't find in a couple weeks, should I test him for Lyme? When should I test him? Thanks for any input.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Poor Apollo  I don't have any experience with Lyme disease and hopefully that is not what he has. For the testing, according to this article My Dog is Lyme Positive ?!?! « River Cove Animal Hospital a positive result means only that the dog has been exposed to the organsm that causes the disease not the disease itself. But I do suggest you discuss whether to have Apollo tested with your vet.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Me personally, I would check a Lyme test in 3-4 months, unless he has symptoms.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Should I give any milk thistle while he is on the Doxy?


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Unfortunately when Sonny was young he was diagnosed with Lyme's. So I've done a lot of reaserch on it. Check out Dr. Dodds site about it and there is a lot of research studies available on the web (I'll check my bookmarks to see if I saved the sites and will link them for you if I can)

Strong evidence shows that the Lyme's vaccine will exacerbate the symptoms and damage if given to a dog who is already infected with Lymes and many prominent vets advise against it if th e dog does test positive. 

Also your vet should be able to tell you if he does test positive whether it is accute (recent/active) or chronic(has been previously infected but symptom free.)

My vet also wanted to vaccinate Sonny after Sonny finished his course of doxy but I refused. The vaccination won't protect a dog who already has the antibodies whether acute or chronic. Lyme's can and often does cause arthritis.

The doxy is standard protocol but it does need to be given for I think 30 Days from what I remember and not the standard 14 Days that are prescribed for other ailments.

Heading to check my bookmarks for the links


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

All About Lyme Disease In Your Dog. also there is a great thread here discussing Lyme's. It was posted in 2012 so a search should bring it up. 

My dog responded very well to the doxy and he recently tested clear of it and he has no symptoms so even though Lyme's is scary, I hope this is of some comfort to your worries


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Heartandsoul said:


> Strong evidence shows that the Lyme's vaccine will exacerbate the symptoms and damage if given to a dog who is already infected with Lymes and many prominent vets advise against it if th e dog does test positive.
> 
> Also your vet should be able to tell you if he does test positive whether it is accute (recent/active) or chronic(has been previously infected but symptom free.)
> 
> ...


Can you provide links that the vaccine can exacerbate issues in a Lyme positive dog? I have not heard that, so I would love to do some research. 

There is debate about the vaccine. The antibodies used can attack the kidneys the same way the disease does. I spoke at length with a very prominent working dog vet about this when she brought it up in a seminar I was in. We had a great discussion, as in my 20 years in the field I had never seen or heard that,but have seen many cases of Lymes nephritis in unvaccinated dogs. 

The vaccine will not help a current infection. But Lyme is not like chicken pox. The infection does not cause immunity. So the vaccine would prevent new infection. 

If your boy tests positive with a basic in office snap test, ask for a C6 to be drawn and sent out. It gives an actual number. Then retest after treatment to make sure the number has fallen significantly. 

Def do the Doxy for 30 days. Give it WITH food, as it is well known for causing vomitiing. Milk Thistle won't hurt. Not sure it would help.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Heartandsoul said:


> Strong evidence shows that the Lyme's vaccine will ....


WHICH vaccine? 

Because that answer does make a difference.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

My vet told me that there are significant questions about the effectiveness of the vaccine and that once vaccinated he would test positive for Lymes because it is testing for?? the antibodies? Which are in the vaccine too?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

DutchKarin said:


> My vet told me that there are significant questions about the effectiveness of the vaccine and that once vaccinated he would test positive for Lymes because it is testing for?? the antibodies? Which are in the vaccine too?


No, not in 4DX test. The reference labs can differentiate between natural and vaccine exposure. Ante H does a great job with this. 

I can only go off of personal/professional experience. Pups that included Lyme as part of the puppy series, and kept up with it, did not get Lyme, or test positive on the 4DX test. Dogs that were not vaccinated, very very often tested positive but were sub clinical. No symptoms. 

Again, this is personal experience. No scientific basis. 

There are many types of vaccines, most work with OSP A or OSP C or both. Which disrupt the virus in the tick or once it enters the new host. Sorry, it's been a while since I really read up on the differences. I want to say the Merial vaccine work with both OSP A and C. But I could be very wrong.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nobivac has A and C.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

All I know is that she said that the vaccine has come a long way. I'm not fond of the vaccine and haven't looked at it or researched it in years. She did say that whatever was in the vaccine would help fight it and I think she said build antibodies against it, because it's really early in the game. No symptoms other then what I found. We are both leaning toward the wound because of the depth of the wound, but we also don't want to wait and see if it was a tick. Hopefully she can see more when the scab is ready to come off. If it's following my wound I got in the same fight the scab came off but came right back because of the wounds depth.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Wouldn't it be really odd to have a tick scab this time of the year in Illinois? It's just not what I would have even thought of as a cause.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I also asked if Mercury was in the vaccine and she told me that none of their vaccines contain mercury-/can that be true?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

ksotto333 said:


> Wouldn't it be really odd to have a tick scab this time of the year in Illinois? It's just not what I would have even thought of as a cause.


They are out there. It hasn't been a bad winter here at all. I thought about that and asked that first.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

llombardo said:


> I also asked if Mercury was in the vaccine and she told me that none of their vaccines contain mercury-/can that be true?



Yes. Mercury is "out of fashion" now and many makers are not using it. 

Heavy snow years, often cause an increase in ticks, because it's actually insulated under all that snow! Cold weather ticks are the disease carriers, not the summer "dog ticks". At least in my area of the east coast.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

llombardo said:


> Last night as I was petting Apollo I noticed a bump. Originally I though maybe some matting and as I pet him I realized it was more like a scab. After looking at it I could not determine if it was a tick or a bite wound from the fight he got into a couple weeks ago with Batman. So we went to the vet today and they couldn't determine if either. The scab isn't ready to come off and she felt it might be to big for a tick. So in order to hit it from all directions he is on Doxy and got a Lyme shot(second one in 3-4 weeks). The vet said in this case now would be a good time for the vaccine because of the antibodies. Anybody have experience with this? She will recheck the area when he goes back in for the second shot. She also gave ointment for the area and some gauze soaked in a cleaning solution for that area. Depending on what we find or don't find in a couple weeks, should I test him for Lyme? When should I test him? Thanks for any input.


So curious...why did they send out bloodwork for a C6 before putting him on an expensive abx and giving him a vaccine?

https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/docs/lyme_disease_multiplex_testing_for_dogs.pdf

Second, the vet I take the dogs to for the Lyme vaccine discussed his protocol, which he said is based on research from the leading lyme's researcher in the country (who used to work at Cornell). If a positive test, he would treat with abx. Then do a C6 and if the infection was inactive vaccinate with the Nobivax.

If test was negative, then he would give the vaccine.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

This seems to be the vaccine


RECOMBITEK® Lyme
Targeted Protection through Recombinant Technology

By using only pure outer surface protein A (OspA), RECOMBITEK Lyme provides unsurpassed efficacy without the potentially harmful flagellan protein1. Plus, RECOMBITEK Lyme contains no chemical adjuvants, thus eliminating the potential risk typically associated with adjuvants.
Recombinant subunit technology uses only a pure non-adjuvanted protein to stimulate immunity
Shown in studies to completely block transmission of Lyme disease spirochete2
Not a whole cell bacteria


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> So curious...why did they send out bloodwork for a C6 before putting him on an expensive abx and giving him a vaccine?
> 
> https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/docs/lyme_disease_multiplex_testing_for_dogs.pdf
> 
> ...


They didn't send out blood work. She went with doxy because it can treat either tick born disease or infection from a bite wound(there is some redness) I didn't like the way it looked and normally don't go for things like that. 

The vet said the new vaccine can fight off the disease, especially early on.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Heartandsoul said:


> Unfortunately when Sonny was young he was diagnosed with Lyme's. So I've done a lot of reaserch on it. Check out Dr. Dodds site about it and there is a lot of research studies available on the web (I'll check my bookmarks to see if I saved the sites and will link them for you if I can)
> 
> Strong evidence shows that the Lyme's vaccine will exacerbate the symptoms and damage if given to a dog who is already infected with Lymes and many prominent vets advise against it if th e dog does test positive.
> 
> ...


Yes, I also believe that the doxy is a 30 day course of treatment. I was bitten by a Lyme tick while doing S&R in the woods, and had to take doxy for 30 days, same as the dogs! Not a fun thing to have a Lyme tick bite.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The good thing about Apollo is that I give him the pill and he eats it like its a treat. No food needed, he just eats it.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

How long is Apollo in treatment with antibiotics .is it the same length of time versus whether it was lymes or an infection? I would still watch for signs of any kind of abscess. I would hate to imagine ticks are around although we had some days that made me think winter has already left us but no such luck.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Gsdsar, I'll see if I can find the article that stated vaccine exacerbates the symptoms. Back in 2012 you had participated in a really in depth discussion on this subject very much like this thread. It helped me out a lot and motivated me to do more digging.

Jax08 I do not know which vaccination. It was a while ago so if I did know I have forgotten

I'll also post a link to the 2012 thread tomorrow.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jenny720 said:


> How long is Apollo in treatment with antibiotics .is it the same length of time versus whether it was lymes or an infection? I would still watch for signs of any kind of abscess. I would hate to imagine ticks are around although we had some days that made me think winter has already left us but no such luck.


30 days. The area is shaved and I have to clean it daily, so I can and will keep an eye on it. Tonite as I was going to dinner there were 6 deer in front of my house. I silently cursed the ticks that were probably on those beautiful deer.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Heartandsoul said:


> Gsdsar, I'll see if I can find the article that stated vaccine exacerbates the symptoms. Back in 2012 you had participated in a really in depth discussion on this subject very much like this thread. It helped me out a lot and motivated me to do more digging.
> 
> Jax08 I do not know which vaccination. It was a while ago so if I did know I have forgotten
> 
> I'll also post a link to the 2012 thread tomorrow.


The old vaccine did in fact do this. I asked the vet that before I decided on the vaccine. Before it would either bring the disease on or mimick the disease, that is no longer the case. Now it's meant to create antibodies to fight the disease.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have been thinking because I don't think this is a tick bite or a bite wound, I really have never had a problem with ticks and during the fight I never seen Batman have any kind of advantage over Apollo to get a bite in. 


What I do remember....


Apollo was neutered a couple weeks ago and I set up his crate. He slept in it Thursday night and was fine. I went up work on Friday and at lunch time everything was still good. When I came home Friday Apollo had bent the one side and the pieces were sticking up in the crate. I remember thinking how he could have hurt himself and tossed the crate. I never checked him because there was no blood anywhere and he was acting like himself. I'm thinking that he did in fact poke himself and luckily it wasn't in his heart because it could have been. I'm almost willing to bet this is what happened. Perfect angle of the wires with the wound.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

It's probably a wound and most likely from what you describe above, but the doxy won't hurt..

My suggestion give him a probiotic atleast while he's on the doxy.. 

From what my vet has told me, and I live in Lyme CT is that, once the dog 'has' lyme, there's no point in giving the vac because it will always be in their system..You will never truly get rid of it, altho you may never see any clinical signs and he may never test positive, it becomes dormant and well can pop up anytime if ever.

I have been battling babesia and lyme since July,,both have really screwed up especially my memory at times. Knowing what it has done to "me", I can imagine what these nasty bugs can do to dogs..I just got off of 5mths of doxy and was on a month of mepron for the babesia..My specialist has told me, I will always have both in my system, cannot give blood, cannot donate organs, and could have reoccurrances of the disease..So again, knowing what it did to me, I can imagine what it can do to our dogs..


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

He gets a raw diet with digest all--is that good enough for a probiotic? He also gets turmeric, garlic, bee pollen and Spirulina. Coconut oil a couple times a week.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I have been thinking because I don't think this is a tick bite or a bite wound, I really have never had a problem with ticks and during the fight I never seen Batman have any kind of advantage over Apollo to get a bite in.
> 
> 
> What I do remember....
> ...


This sounds most likely to be the case. It is just a month of antibiotics is a long time to be on if not needed. Now he has the lymes vaccine and it will help him prevent any lymes disease in future. I had given our dog lymes vaccine last year and not crazy about vaccines although i know some protection is necessary. as lymes disease is a problem where we live and after last spring i will not give it a second thought as i never seen the amount of ticks that were out in my life during the spring season.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> From what my vet has told me, and I live in Lyme CT is that, once the dog 'has' lyme, there's no point in giving the vac because it will always be in their system..You will never truly get rid of it, altho you may never see any clinical signs and he may never test positive, it becomes dormant and well can pop up anytime if ever.


Diane - ask your vet about the latest research with the Nobivac vaccine. Actually, not the latest. It's about 4 years old. What the vet told me is that you test to make sure the infection is inactive, and then give the vaccine (because it attacks the C component) and the vaccine helps the dog continue to fight it off.

So much controversial and contradictory info on Lyme!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I can not state this more loudly and clearly -- it is of utmost importance to have a healthy immune system, one that is able to defend against infectious disease , protects against threats like viruses, bacteria and parasites . 
Lyme has so many co-infections !
Having researched and asked Lyme literate doctors , which I feel is a necessary specialist to get on board, the consensus seems to be to address the immune system first. Allow the body the defenses to combat . Give the body the tools to recognize the infection . Then address the parasite/microbes .
One thought is that antibiotics work in the very early stages . Use integrative therapy , addressing immune function, superior nutrition, altering the pH (terrain) inner environment , tackling the Lyme and co-infection with specific natural tinctures , anti parasitics . 
With a singular approach it may appear that the Lyme has resolved. Meanwhile the Lyme has been driven deeper or into hiding in mucosal bio-film which the anti biotics can't seem to touch. 

Ticks are not the only vector.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Carmen, I have never read or heard any other vector besides certain types of ticks. Can you elaborate please?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

and here ya go...you can nix everything you thought you just learned

Borrelia Mayonii, New Lyme Disease Bacteria, Found in Midwest - NBC News


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Just wanted to say super thread and really appreciate all your contributions. Lots to think about.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

inspired by the pythiosis thread and finally getting time to research pleomorphism as my holistic vet friend had been bugging me to do , and looking to Lyme literate specialist MD, and Vet -- there is a lot of information out there. 
I also started a thread here , 2010? , about a vet-baffling , resistant, mysterious skin disorder that plagued dogs in a defined area in the north Toronto area , which also struck the wire haired terrier dog of my friend who is a senior research scientist , who probably at this moment is working on research for this latest mosquito borne disease , Zika virus .

this "borreliosis (Lyme disease) and sometimes with the typical viral, protozoal and bacterial coinfections. 
Which are caused from Anaplasma, Babesia (intracellular in red blood cells, anaemia, red pin prick dots on skin, dark urine), Bartonella (intracellular in granulozytes), Chlamydia, Rickettsia (meningo/encephalitis) Mycoplasma (respiratory, nerves, organs), and with the later rise of opportunistic infections (Candida, Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus, etc.).
Lyme disease which is caused by the spirochetal bacteria _Borrelia burgdorferi_ s.s. (sensu lato), is not only transmitted by ticks, but also by other vectors, such as worms (nematodes), lice, bed bugs, mosquitoes, fleas, termites (symbiont: _Borrelia recurrentis_) and many other kinds of insect and arthropod vectors. These vectors can live in symbiosis with spirochetes and now, perhaps, with this unknown fungus-like organism (protozoan?) called Morgellons. 
In any case, spirochetes are very extraordinary and higher developed bacteria. They are highly transformable (pleomorphic) and are found everywhere in nature. They particularly inhabit mud, dirt, soil and puddles, where they can settle in vectors mentioned above, living inside them in endosymbiosis or as ectosymbiont. "

that pretty much puts me at the saturation point for wanting to look further -- need a break 

keep the immune system strong.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just wanted to add that a great deal of the research is coming out of the veterinary field !!!

they are far ahead --


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just remembered -- benefits of coconut oil ! 
select high lauric acid coconut oil products , as this is your microbicide.

previously mentioned microbes hiding in bio-film or protective lipid covering -- well this lauric acid which is transformed into monolaurin in the body , is able to strip away these covers which allows the body's immune system to "get them". 

there are commercial forumula from MCT (medium chain triglycerides) by the name of Lauricidin


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm adding goat milk to the diet. I'm looking for bone broth because mine just never comes out right


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I found a dog tick on Max yesterday. We still have so much snow on the ground!!!!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt on Lyme Disease


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