# Need advice. Czech shepherd in dog shelter. HELP.



## lashep

The other day a girl I know gave up her FULL BLOODED REGISTERED AKC CZECH SHEPHERD under 2 years old. After contacting her well known dog trainers, I found that she stopped going to the dog trainers. He had done so well that one of the trainers asked her to give him up so he can train and donate him to the police k9 unit. They have also encouraged her to re-home the dog because she was not the right fit to be his handler. Basically what I found out was she wanted to sell the dog a few months ago. Trainers told her it would never happen. Most people who take in a dog like him aren't going to do it if he has started showing problems with aggression. She started to go to different trainers who most likely over worked him and started to show aggression. Recently she left the dog with a friend. He growled and the friend said pick up your dog. She came to pick him up and he attacked her. She left him there and the friend took the dog to the shelter. He has been there for a few days now and I'm shocked and don't know how else to help. I have tried contacting reputable dog trainers who deal with strong breeds and I'm terrified that he will be put down or shelter will give it to a clueless person and end up hurting others without proper training. I see that this article doesn't have recent comments but I'm hoping someone will read this and give me any advice. The dog trained with the best for over at least one year and even wanted to use him for a movie etc. That dog is still in there, I'm sure. I have a shepherd mix and have no idea how much it takes to train these type of working line dogs. It's not like I can go to any of my local rescues for help. These are specific dogs who require special handlers. Please help.


----------



## Deb

Do you know who the trainer was that wanted him? Where are you located?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Has the breeder been contacted?


----------



## lashep

Yes I contacted two of the trainers that worked with her and the dog the first year. 
I asked him if they could pull the dog out of the shelter. First one said he cares so much for the dog and is really hurting what happened. He said he would need at least 6 months to retrain him and his center is full. It also cost time and money so he really needs to think about it. The other trainer was very angry with her. He said he isn't going to take the dog after he turned aggressive like this and he doesn't think anyone would. He said that if someone educated about the breed is willing to take him, he would help train the dog. We are located in Los Angeles, CA. 

From what I recall, she "rescued" the dog from someone who was leaving the country when he was just a puppy. I doubt the breeder was contacted but I'm not sure. I tried to reach out to the girl but she probably won't reply back.


----------



## lashep

*Euthanize the only option to aggressive working line?*

I contacted the breeder per suggested from @MineAreWorkingline
She did evaluate the dog and showing aggression (growling).
She said as a responsibility as a breeder of this dog, she can take him to be euthanized.

Is this how working line dogs are treated? Dog show shows aggression, dog handler dumps the dog, and only option is euthanasia?

I deal with mutts, rescues, rehabilitation - this world is new to me. This is why I am on a forum like this. Please help me.
This is breaking my heart - a complete tragedy.


----------



## Steve Strom

Maybe the trainers and the breeder of the dog see something and there's a reason they aren't taking the dog? Maybe there's things you don't know about that led to the dog being re-homed previously? It isn't specific to working line dogs other then maybe a more realistic way of judging temperament by people with experience.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

lashep said:


> I contacted the breeder per suggested from @MineAreWorkingline
> She did evaluate the dog and showing aggression (growling).
> She said as a responsibility as a breeder of this dog, she can take him to be euthanized.
> 
> Is this how working line dogs are treated? Dog show shows aggression, dog handler dumps the dog, and only option is euthanasia?
> 
> I deal with mutts, rescues, rehabilitation - this world is new to me. This is why I am on a forum like this. Please help me.
> This is breaking my heart - a complete tragedy.


I am not sure why a breeder would opt to put down a working line Czech dog that shows aggression. 

German Shepherds are supposed to have a modicum of aggression. It is the breed standard so I doubt the dog showing aggression is the problem unless it is inappropriate aggression.

Could you post this dog's pedigree? Or pictures? It might help find a resolution to this.


----------



## lashep

Thank you @Steve Strom - 
He was never re-homed. It was suggested because the trainers felt she was not the right handler for him. But she refused.
Trainers said he was doing great. Dogs do change but people don't. She went to different trainers in the end and they feel often times they push too hard and the dogs will just turn on them. He is growling and showing aggression. 

The trainers want to take him but it cost too much money and time to retrain him.
Breeder says she wants to euthanize him.

Is that it? Thats the right thing to do?
He is in a local dog shelter right now.


----------



## lashep

Aero Od Elitni (aka Logan Sharpe)

FREE FULL BLOODED REGISTERED AKC CZECH SHEPHERD

www.PetHarbor.com pet:LACT2.A1569900

According to what the owner told the breeder was the trainer stressed him into biting. (although it may be true but I wouldn't trust a word of someone who abandoned her dog irresponsibly.

owner apparently had to tie him down to feed him. (she is an inexperienced handler to these types of dogs - many times the trainers asked her to re-home the dog because she wasn't cut out to handle these types of dogs but she refused).


----------



## Steve Strom

You said rescued from the original owner. I used re-homed. She wasn't the original owner. A trainer's time is worth money. You don't think a trainer would use some of that time to take a good dog and train him to make some money? A breeder wouldn't take back a good dog to re-sell?


----------



## lashep

Yes, true sorry. But he was just a puppy when she took him so I just consider her the owner.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you saying that he is no longer a good dog because trainers and breeders are not willing to take him in to re-train and sell?


----------



## Steve Strom

I'm just giving you different things to consider since you were questioning if this was somehow a working dog thing. Its not that he is no longer a good dog, but good dog means something different to everyone that says it. Maybe he has no working abilities, but he could be a good pet for someone. Maybe not a good pet for anyone. Maybe the breeder and trainer aren't anyone to listen to anymore then the owner. I don't think its anything different then what a lot of dogs end up in, not something unique to a working line dog that had some half a,,,,,,, training.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Let's not forget the so many ineffective owners that are drawn to the breed.


----------



## lashep

Thank you.

As I'm not familiar with these types of dogs. Can they become ordinary pets?
From what the girl (owner) used to tell me is that these type of dogs are very intense and need to be trained properly constantly or else they become so stressed to the point of destruction and aggressive. Can they be renurtured as not a working dog but a regular pet with no duties other than a companion to someone?


----------



## Magwart

LAshep, the key statement that you offered is this one: *"She came to pick him up and he attacked her."*

If by attack you mean "bit" then this dog has a known bite history. It's apparently handler-aggressive, not just stranger-aggressive. That's a BIG deal for rehoming. 

Please step back and think about this dog's history. You are in Los Angeles where homeless purebred GSDs are a dime a dozen. For every rescue spot, there are probably 10 GSDs at various high-kill shelters in cities in LA County, San Bernardino County, and Orange County that all need that one rescue spot to avoid euthanasia. The rescue's volunteers have to pick which one dog will be the lucky one they save. The same is true of the trainers who rehab dogs: there are tons of dogs these trainers can choose to take on as "personal project dogs," so why wouldn't they choose the ones that don't bite their owners? There are too many good, loving, non-aggressive GSDs looking for homes to use up a scarce foster-spot on a human-aggressive dog. 

It may be a dog who was failed by an owner who messed it up by doing all the wrong things early. That happens. It's terribly sad. Fixing these dogs is not always easy though, and very few trainers or foster homes have the right skill set. The liability of getting it wrong is something that gives me sleepless nights in rescue.

I'm actually surprised this shelter is allowing the dog to be adopted out to the public. Was it surrendered with full notice to the shelter of the bite history?


----------



## Steve Strom

lashep said:


> Thank you.
> 
> As I'm not familiar with these types of dogs. Can they become ordinary pets?
> From what the girl (owner) used to tell me is that these type of dogs are very intense and need to be trained properly constantly or else they become so stressed to the point of destruction and aggressive. Can they be renurtured as not a working dog but a regular pet with no duties other than a companion to someone?


They have different, individual temperaments like any dog. Mine is 99% companion to me.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Contact these programs:

https://www.facebook.com/throwawaydogs/

https://www.universalk9inc.com/poli...a-difference-in-the-community-she-now-serves/


----------



## lashep

Thanks magwart.

I understand about all the dogs who need homes. The reason I came on this forum is because it seems to be full of owners who deal with working and show line dogs. I think and correct me if I'm wrong but these types of dogs are not the same as your typical shepherds and mutts waiting in shelters for their forever home. 

This dog does have training and AKC bla bla bla (which I don't know much about).

I heard someone say "attacked" but I verified with the breeder and the story she was told by the owner was that he "growled" at her when she came to pick him up from her friends home but instead just left him there for her friend to deal with. Now she could be lying about it but lets assume it was not a attack but a growl.

The breeder had the dog assessed by a working dog trainer, who stated it could be fixed with a lot of time ($$$) but still would always have to manage his behavioral issues. 

The owners explanation is that, trainers she was with couldn't get him to be aggressive enough and they stressed him into biting so that is the root of his behavioral issues. (she said this to the breeder)

I remember one of the first times I met the owner for coffee, I took my dog as I always do and thought she would bring him as well. She told me that I was not allowed to meet Logan or touch him. She didn't allow Logan to socialize with anyone or other dogs except for at the training center. This was the first time I was introduced to working line dogs and realized how different they were.

*By the way, thank you for al the help everyone. I do appreciate it. I have been a dog owner to many rescued mutts - I just don't have any experience when it comes to these "working line" dogs who are trained very differently.


----------



## Deb

IF the shelter knows he has a bite history, odds are the dog won't be adoptable. If he is this aggressive, then I'm not sure adopting him out to possibly some unexpecting person or even worse, family, is dangerous and irresponsible. 


OP, I understand you have an emotional attachment to this dog, but sometimes the whole picture has to be taken into account. It's very sad that this dog is in this situation and I really admire how hard you are trying to help him. The feedback you're getting isn't restricted to working lines or show lines. It happens everyday to many other German Shepherds and many other breeds. Go to any shelter any day and you will see heartbreaking dogs. 


Rehabilitation on a dog like this would be very difficult and he could probably never be fully trustable. I truly hope you can find a solution that will work in his best interests. You're doing an awesome job on his behalf.


----------



## lashep

Thank you MineAreWorkingline. I'll try anything. I emailed both of them.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

lashep said:


> Thank you MineAreWorkingline. I'll try anything. I emailed both of them.


Good luck. Keep us posted, there may be other options.


----------



## Muskeg

Hey LaShep, are you considering fostering this dog? 

The vast majority of working-line dogs of any breed variety, malinois included, are mostly companion animals. If they weren't we'd have a lot more schutzhund (IPO), mondio, PSA type clubs around the country. So most people with working line dogs train on their own and keep their dogs as mostly companions. It is fairly rare for a dog to end up as a working police K9 or as a high level sport dog. Even sport dogs are not usually "officially" worked all that often. They are exercised, given drive outlets, and trained, but they are not actively trained in sport protection, for example, that often- maybe once or twice a week, at maximum. 

That said, a working line dog is really quite unique to the vast majority of "pet" owners. To own this type of dog you need to understand how they were bred, why they were bred, and train them, exercise them, appropriately. Along with giving them the drive outlets they need. A good game of tug or fetch is usually enough to meet that, but sports and clubs are always the ideal for this type of dog. I am often kind of taken aback when I meet a "pet" dog these days because they are so much more laid back, low energy, non-challenging. Some can be difficult, for sure, but generally in a different way or not to the level of a dog bred from a long line of working dogs. 

I am not a fan of handler aggression, but I don't necessarily have a problem with aggression in proper context, and properly controlled. I am not sure what the breeder saw to warrant euthanasia. Perhaps the breeder simply does not have the resources to take on a project. Breeders are people, too.


----------



## lashep

Thank you Deb.

I do know the shelters well and I know there are many deserving dogs who need homes. I've volunteered to clean and walk dogs in shelters for a 3 years. My friend runs a rescue and she pulls dogs from shelters all the time. I get it all. (yesterday was the first time in my life that I spoke to a dog breeder)

I only met Logan once during a photoshoot my friend was doing. I've only met the girl twice. I just know that his a special kind of dog. She sent me the link to the craigslist post and I had to try and help. 

*The attack seemed to have been exaggerated by one of the trainers I contacted. He growled and of course that can be very dangerous.
*

I have many friends who have dogs who have behavior problems (aggression) but they would never dump their dog at a shelter. I know dumping dogs happen every day but it's just wrong.


----------



## Deb

It sounds like this boy had a really poor bringing up, LaShep. And I'm so glad you volunteer, I started volunteering when I was 14 at a 'local' shelter. LOL, it wasn't very local but my mother was great about taking me there every weekend. 


I really hope the organizations you were given can help out.


----------



## Magwart

If there is really no bite history, then you can see if German Shepherd Rescue of LA (in Burbank) or Westside German Shepherd Rescue (downtown LA) will help. When you give them the info, give them ALL the info (incl. contact info for the trainers who know this dog, if you have it). That way, they can do a full assessment with all the facts. Please don't sugar coat the bad stuff when you reach out to them--it will all help with the assessment, if they know they need to look for aggression triggers.


----------



## lashep

Muskeg - Thank you. 

No I'm in not qualified to foster or adopt Logan. I literally just learned the term "working line" and show line" last week!

The owner trained Logan often from what she told me. Going to centers a few times a week doing agility training and CGC training. I don't know if its true but she told me that Logan comes from a family of dogs who were used in war. 

Its great insight knowing that even working line dogs are not always worked and mainly companion animals.

I was just basing my limited knowledge to what the girl told me and how strict the training had to be for dogs like Logan. She told me that without constant training, they will become aggressive and euthanized. That they had to be isolated and no person or pet can interfere with Logan's training - hence she never allowed anyone or other dogs to go near him except at the center. (this was the first time I ever heard anyone say socialization was bad!)


----------



## lashep

Magwart - I did contact both G.Shepherd Rescue organizations in LA. They were the first people I contacted but I have not heard back from them yet.


----------



## lashep

The trainer obviously saw a lot of potential in Logan for him to want to take him and train him as a Police K9 and act in movies. He is a trainer used in the Dog Whisper.


----------



## Muskeg

lashep- it is commendable of you to try to find a foster for this dog.

I think it is VERY difficult to find anyone with the expertise or willingness to take on this type of dog. Most trainers are clueless about it or will push a dog like this beyond what he can handle- if he goes to escape first, they will do something like table-training to force a bite. A good trainer may not want a dog that has "issues" common to many working line dogs but without the drive or nerves to succeed at sport. 

He's a beautiful dog, and it is sad his breeder will not try another option than euthanasia, but in reality, that is probably the easiest thing for the breeder to do. It sounds like the dog does not have the proper nerves or drive for actual protection work and has been forced into it. 

I'm sorry. But unfortunately if the owner is out of the picture, dogs like this tend to fall between the cracks.


----------



## lashep

Thank you Muskeg

The breeder said that he was not a pup sold for protection sport because he wasn't a proper candidate and in the process to make him do it they have created problems. There are tons of owners and trainers who cannot handle bringing up a working dog correctly period, but then taking a dog who isn't a candidate and stressing him to bite created Logan problems. She said she only give limited registration to puppies, but she can't control it if someone kept him intact. 

Let's say that no one from the rescues I contacted can help to pull Logan out of the shelter and retrain him. Is it better to keep him alive in the shelter (who knows if shelter has the full knowledge of his past and gives it to someone who isn't qualified, or ends up not getting adopted and stays in the tiny cell, or euthanized) or have the breeder pull Logan and euthanize him.

I can't even believe Im writing about euthanasia. Maybe I'm too naive but I always believed that all dogs can be trained and even if they aren't 100% fixed, can be re-homed. Obviously I can only do so much and will need to face reality that this is the fate for this beautiful dog. :crying:


----------



## -Cerberus-

lashep said:


> Thank you.
> 
> As I'm not familiar with these types of dogs. Can they become ordinary pets?
> From what the girl (owner) used to tell me is that these type of dogs are very intense and need to be trained properly constantly or else they become so stressed to the point of destruction and aggressive. Can they be renurtured as not a working dog but a regular pet with no duties other than a companion to someone?


My dog is from a Czech working line. As a puppy he was intense and trouble..but never aggressive. After working with a good trainer he is a good boy who is an ordinary, albeit energetic, pet to me. Sure, they need more training than some breeds, they definitely have lots of energy which could lead to some destructive behaviors....but I have yet to hear that be a reason behind one becoming aggressive. At any rate, a working line dog could very easily live a happy life as a pet so long as they go through enough obedience training and have some outlet for energy..even if it's just a couple walks a day or some fun with a flirt rod.

This is my first dog, and I am still learning about this breed; however, it sounds to me like it was either the handler or the trainer that made it aggressive. You later mentioned the trainer supposedly stressed the dog into biting. I mean.. what the heck. What kind of trainer would force a dog who clearly isn't interested in bite work to bite? Granted, I have not participated in protection training...but that sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Any good trainer should have not allowed the dog to continue with that kind of training.

Well..I certainly hope this dog gets out and is rehabbed somehow. It's sad hearing stuff like this.. :frown2:


----------



## lashep

Thanks Cerberus

Thats great that your working line is a "ordinary" dog and not forced into strict training.

The breeder said a trainer stressed the dog into biting (protection classes)
The trainers I'm speaking to say she stopped going to them last year and went to other trainers and Logan started to show aggression.

Who know what is the real truth but it seemed too many mistakes might have been made with him and he has ended up in the shelter. Ultimately its the handler/owner's responsibility to make sure that any pet gets the proper training and care that the dog can handle.

I still have hope that someone out there can pull Logan and help him be the dog he deserved to be.

Thanks to everyones comments, I feel like my knowledge of working line dogs have expanded a little. That not all working line dogs need to go through rigorous training but like any dog out there, amount of exercise, training, personality and temperament should always be individually tailored to that dogs needs. I always believed that not all breeds are the same. The owner of Logan was in the wrong. I'm certain now that she pushed Logan too far because he was a "full blooded AKC Czech Shepherd" breed and didn't acknowledge that he is a unique individual dog.


----------



## eddie1976E

What a handsome boy. Darn shame that he is in this predicament.


----------



## Jax08

lashep said:


> Thank you Muskeg
> 
> The breeder said that he was not a pup sold for protection sport because he wasn't a proper candidate and in the process to make him do it they have created problems. There are tons of owners and trainers who cannot handle bringing up a working dog correctly period, but then taking a dog who isn't a candidate and stressing him to bite created Logan problems. She said she only give limited registration to puppies, but she can't control it if someone kept him intact.


So is the breeder going to take him back??


----------



## Deb

Wait a minute. This dog has been at the shelter since 16 October? Today is the 21st. In all the madness, dogs barking, people, general chaos for a dog, and he is still up for adoption? Then he has not shown any aggression there. This makes me wonder a little bit. I'm beginning to wonder if somewhere something is very wrong.


----------



## Jax08

I"m having a hard time following this thread. Who has the dog? Who's been contacted? Who is the breeder? Who is the trainer who wanted to buy the dog? Has anyone qualified actually eval'd the dog or is it all hearsay? Why isn't the breeder taking him back since it seems the OP has spoken to the breeder?

None of this makes sense.


----------



## lashep

*The "attack" seemed to have been exaggerated by one of the trainers I contacted. * According to the breeder apparently he growled at the owner when she came to pick him up not bite. But owner did confess that she has to tie him back to feed him. BUT in defense to Logan... I think with any dog, once anyone shows "fear" and is "unbalanced", the dog is no longer going to follow anything you do. It seems like thats what happened in the end. (or I just watched too many dog whisper shows). 

I'm sorry this thread is confusing to some. I apologize.

*Short Version:

Owner trains Logan in Sports/Protection with reputable dog trainer
Owner stops taking Logan to the dog trainer a year ago and goes to different trainers.
Logan starts to show aggression (growling - it does not appear to be biting)
Owner tried to sell Logan and failed.
Owner takes Logan to breeder.
Breeder has Logan evaluated professionally - Breeder tells owner she can't re-home him due to his aggression. 
Owner asked old trainers to take him, they said no.
Owner takes Logan to friends house, friend says Logan growled and to come pick him up.
Owner comes to pick up Logan but he growls and she leaves him there.
Friend takes Logan to shelter on Oct 16th and is listed for adoption.
I received a craigslist post from owner with link to Logan listed as "free" she will not return my messages.*

Since then I've contacted 2 of Logans trainers and breeder. I have also contacted 4 organizations but no reply. Getting some advice and help from all of you on this forum.

If Breeder takes Logan back (which was offered) Logan will be euthanized. 

(I don't think it would be right for me to mention who the trainers are or the breeders name)


----------



## Chip18

Soo let me see ... The original owner was told that this particular puppy was not a good candidate for a Working Dog? She took him anyway and chose despite what the "Breeder" recommended to pursue that course of action "anyway??" 

Most likely the Breeders "pet quality pups" were less expensive than working prospects ... don't know?? AT anyrate the puppy is forced by "whatever" means by some trainers into doing something he was not suitable for. The owner was mostly "resentful of the dog" (no bond there) and most likely, that is the ultimate source of the (Growl/Bite???) whatever??

WL dogs ... under the best of circumstances need "proper leadership, rules and structure" (well ... all dogs really but especially WL/Dominate dogs.) It sounds like the goal was to make the dog do something he was not suited to do and everything else was forgotten??

The pool of homes that could successfully handle this dog are greatly reduced. No kids would most likely be preferable, a quite lifestyle with outdoor activity and no major free roaming play dates at "Billy Bobs family outings would be a wise course of action. 

I'd also add no "I thought my dog was friendly street hook ups" and no "Dog Parks." Although no mention of dog aggression was mentioned ... not typically a problem with well trained GSD's. But crap happens not going out of the way to create that problem would be a "wise course" of action. But save for the "OP" it sounds like this guy has not been surrounded by a lot of "wisdom." 

But ... JQP adopts LE K9/MDW washouts all the time?? Maybe that's the pool to look at???


----------



## Raider0372

Hey lashep,

FYI, there's a very experienced Czech GSD breeder/trainer in Arizona that was interested in helping Logan.

I would definitely get in touch with Hans at AlpineK9 for assistance. 623-388-5000

Best of luck and I hope Logan can be rescued by someone who will help him instead of euthanizing him.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Is there any update on this dog?


----------



## lashep

Raider0372 - Thank you so much. I'm going to call them right now.


----------



## lashep

Ex-swner of the dog and Arizona Breeder/Trainer Hans from Alpine K9 are now in touch.
Hopefully she will be able to pull Logan out of the shelter and Hans will be able to re-train and work with Logan.

Thank you all for your help. I wanted to give you an update.


----------



## Chip18

That's great keep us updated!


----------



## Deb

That's awesome news! I'm praying for Logan to be able to go to Hans and all goes well.


----------



## Slamdunc

lashep said:


> Ex-swner of the dog and Arizona Breeder/Trainer Hans from Alpine K9 are now in touch.
> Hopefully she will be able to pull Logan out of the shelter and Hans will be able to re-train and work with Logan.
> 
> Thank you all for your help. I wanted to give you an update.


I would interview a few trainers and be very selective and cautious. I hope it works out for the dog and owner.


----------

