# Why am I starting to see more and more dogs in the grocery stores?



## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

I honestly don't ever remember seeing dogs in grocery stores. I know I've read a lot on these dog forums about service dogs, but the dogs I'm seeing don't have on any vest or anything. I was at Whole Foods in Boise and some older lady was walking a lil Foo Foo dog (Yorkie, maybe?) on a leash down the aisle. I approached a worker and mentioned it, and he just shrugged his shoulders like there was nothing he could do. He said non-service dogs are not allowed due to sanitation reasons, and then he went back to stocking the shelves. I was just at my base commissary and saw a family (husband, wife, kids) with a black Lab on a leash in the frozen food section. Again, I went to a worker and asked them about their policy, and they said only service dogs were allowed. He also mentioned that he didn't see the dog, who had now already checked out and left.

I love my dogs, and would love to take them anywhere and everywhere. I appreciate stores like Home Depot, Lowes, PetSmart and Petco for allowing me to take my dogs in there. I know there are people who have posted on here that they like to challenge "the system", and if a store doesn't have any signs on their door saying "No Dogs" then they will just bring their dog right in, regardless of what type of store it is. Maybe this is starting to catch on like a wildfire?

I'm no service dog expert, and I always try to give the person the benefit of the doubt, so maybe they have documentation in their purse to prove it's a service dog (since it's not wearing a vest or any other visible proof showing it's a SD) and not just a pet or emotional companion? Is it against the law to ask them about why their dog is in the grocery store? Why do the store workers seem so helpless and afraid to do anything? Both workers told me dogs are certainly NOT ALLOWED, but then they just allow them to be in there anyways.

Two dogs spotted in a month's time, after going 39 years without ever seeing a dog in a grocery store is kind of odd, don't ya think!?!


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

I'll just suggest that the US population is now way more sick than in years past. I'll also suggest that dogs are now trained for more tasks than ever before when dogs were just for the blind. I'll also say Federal Law does not absolutely require vest, ID, or flashing neon sign. 

Now -- There are two questions business owners and employees can ask people that come into their businesses with dogs.
1. Is that a service dog?
2. What task is the dog trained to do?
That's it. You cannot ask why a person needs a service dog or what their disability is. You cannot ask them if the dog is certified as a service dog or require them to show a certificate or other paperwork (that's because there is no official certification for service dogs, and because anyone can buy a certificate for their dog on the internet even if they aren't disabled and their dog has no training whatsoever, so showing you a certificate of some kind would be completely meaningless). You cannot require that they have their dog demonstrate the tasks it can perform for them.
Asking anything other than those two questions above is a violation of a person's rights under the Americans with Disability Act. If you or your employees violate the ADA, you may find your business faced with hefty fines. As stated in: What Questions Can Business Owners Ask People with Service Dogs? - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com dated Dec. 2013.

Do I think in the instances you cited people are working the system? Well, very likely, or maybe not. 
I hope I didn't sound arguing or anything -- I just thought I would answer since no one had.


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## BorderKelpie (Apr 26, 2010)

I think in some (maybe most) cases in my touwn it's just an issue that most folks believe the rules don't apply to them. 

I have a really hard time thinking that kitten I saw carried in the grocery section at Walmart yesterday was supporting/serving anybody. The woman wasn't even hiding it well, not that she could with it squalling like it was.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

There are a lot of people who want to take their dogs everywhere, and so they sign up for "registration" websites and stuff so they can get vests and information cards.

For actual service dogs, no vests or harnesses are required. Just a legal disability and for the dog to provide tasks for a dog.

HOWEVER... also according to the laws, if a service dog is being unruly, businesses do have the right to refuse service, just like they would if a human was being unruly, without the service dog.

So... while service dogs that complete a task for an invisible disability are becoming more common as more and more people realize it's an option, I think there are also some people who see them without vests or certification and think "oh, I can take my dog here too!"... when that's not the case.



I am training my own service dog for when I have my recurrent episodes of major depression. 6-10 months out of the year I am fine and have no need for her. And then an episode hits. I have lost jobs because of it, my hygiene goes out the window, I have a lot of trouble completing even simple tasks such as making sure I take a shower at some point during a week, or get out of bed long enough to get food. My dog, when fully trained, is not expected to force me to do those things. I have to physically get up and do them. But having a dog that will pull me up if I ask, fetch medication and a bottle of water for me, ground me when I'm dissociating on top of the depression, and provide a tactile alarm when my other alarms go off, as well as other tasks... it's extremely helpful to me. What seems like an insurmountable obstacle now seems a bit easier because I have help.

But... my dog will very rarely be used for public access. Only during those episodes, and only if I'm likely to dissociate. Because while most of my dissociative episodes (which only happen during a depressive episode... hard to explain) happen when I'm alone due to the lack of activity around me... I have had them while in hotel rooms with my college equestrian team event and once during a class I was in.

I have support from my doctors.... but all this to say that while I have a disability that may support my need to have my dog with me at all times... I don't want to impose on people, so when she's fully trained, she will only be going with me to places if I feel like things are really bad... otherwise, she stays home, because with my illness, I really only need her at home.


So... I have read up on disability laws. Both the ADA and my state laws regarding service animals. And so many people haven't... and think it's "OK"... when they don't have a disability. But know enough to know that most stores are not allowed to even ask what your disability is. So they take their dogs with them into said places. Frustrating for those who need their dogs 24/7, and are denied access because of these people.


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## Bob_McBob (Nov 15, 2012)

Home Depot Canada banned non-service dogs from their stores several years ago after a shih tzu bit off part of an employee's nose. Some store managers still turn a blind eye, and employees often don't want to confront customers either way. I'm kind of jealous when I hear other Canadians talking about taking their dogs to places like this to get experience. My local HD even put up big signs banning dogs from the outdoor garden centre after I took my puppy in there once.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Cara Fusinato said:


> I'll just suggest that the US population is now way more sick than in years past. I'll also suggest that dogs are now trained for more tasks than ever before when dogs were just for the blind. I'll also say Federal Law does not absolutely require vest, ID, or flashing neon sign.
> 
> Now -- There are two questions business owners and employees can ask people that come into their businesses with dogs.
> 1. Is that a service dog?
> ...



This, this is correct. Basically the rule is, if it's not bothering anyone, they can't say anything, but when I see a small dog doing nothing but cheating the system, I like to tell the manager to ask what task it does, if the answer is "uhhhh" like it normally is, the are required to leave, also call the police, but that is just me, I have a real service dog, people cheating the system make me sick. 



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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I just saw a small white poodle in my local grocery store yesterday....I was kind of curious as to the service this dog provided...

No big deal...the dog was well minded.

SuperG


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

what a crock, non service dogs do not belong in grocery stores.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i don't want to sound like a jerk but i feel some service dogs are over prescribed and over abused like handicapped parking permits. i'm sorry but one of the last national news stories was a vet missing part of a leg and was wearing a prostetic. he was asked to leave or explain why he needed the dog. he was walking so fine people couldn't tell any disability. he said in a news interview that the dog was a service dog to turn lights on and off and open and close doors. you do those actions with your arms and his were fine. i can understand having a dog turn the wall switch light off for you if you're not wearing your expensive leg while in your house. the dog wasn't doing anything for him in starbucks. i would like to see the surveillance video, i'm sure he opened the door to get in with his hand and didn't turn the lights off in starbucks.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

scarfish...

You don't sound like a jerk to me at all....quite the opposite actually.

It's the same old BS which is becoming more prevalent everyday....

We all just need to remember that there are those to whom the rules to not apply....you know the type....same losers who abuse handicapped parking permits, get on airplanes before their section is called, so they can clog up the aisle, dog owners who don't pick up their dogs crap at dog parks..etc. Too many pigs out there who only care about themselves and don't care about the wake they leave in life.

Whoops...did that sound like I was venting ????? 


SuperG


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

scarfish, that is another can of worms. i will say not all disabilities can be seen. ie: a dog that detects impending seizures, the the vet with ptsd, the dog keeps her/him calm other psych issues ect.... in this case i would rather see some folks abuse the system rather than penalize those that actually rely on their service dog.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

huntergreen said:


> scarfish, that is another can of worms. i will say not all disabilities can be seen. ie: a dog that detects impending seizures, the the vet with ptsd, the dog keeps her/him calm other psych issues ect.... in this case i would rather see some folks abuse the system rather than penalize those that actually rely on their service dog.


Agreed, 

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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

if you're obviously abusing it don't call the media if ever questioned about it. that's all.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I would rather not see an abuse to the system because ultimately it reduces the benefit and impact for those who truly need the benefits, for which they were designed.

I would venture that given enough abuse of the service dog exceptions in public places by those who are taking advantage of the system will ultimately make it more difficult on those who truly need a service dog.....most certainly in the perception by the general public as they become acclimated to viewing service dogs as a hoax because of the abusers..... Cynicism tends to overrule the general mentality once a "privilege" has been abused too often.


SuperG


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

This thread has a lot of good information.. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ce-dogs/437705-service-dog-no-disability.html

Just remember that there are a lot more internal injuries, mentally and even physically (seizures, etc.) that we can't see. While some abuse the system, and it's actually was a prevalent when I moved here, I still like to give people the benefit of the doubt. If their dog is obnoxious, that's one thing. You also don't know if a manager has already spoken with the person and a worker may just not know.


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

scarfish said:


> i don't want to sound like a jerk but i feel some service dogs are over prescribed and over abused like handicapped parking permits. i'm sorry but one of the last national news stories was a vet missing part of a leg and was wearing a prostetic. he was asked to leave or explain why he needed the dog. he was walking so fine people couldn't tell any disability. he said in a news interview that the dog was a service dog to turn lights on and off and open and close doors. you do those actions with your arms and his were fine. i can understand having a dog turn the wall switch light off for you if you're not wearing your expensive leg while in your house. the dog wasn't doing anything for him in starbucks. i would like to see the surveillance video, i'm sure he opened the door to get in with his hand and didn't turn the lights off in starbucks.


So, if this Vet was on his way somewhere where he may need his service dog's skills, should he have left the dog at home because he wanted to stop at Starbucks? What if his prosthetic is uncomfortable and he may want to use a motorized cart or wheelchair at his next destination? 

My husband and I have a long-time close friend who lost his leg in Iraq as a medic trying to save his friends. He has a service dog and is a spokesperson for VetDogs. I can't stand to see people who feel that they are a better judge of someone's disability than the person themselves. Especially when you've seen said person for less than 5 minutes. Count your blessings and be grateful that you are typically-abled and have no need for assistance in your daily life from an animal. I'm sure the guy without a leg would much prefer to have his leg back, over getting to take his dog into Starbucks.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I bumped into a lady at petsmart last year who bragged about bringing her dog, a GSD to the Atlanta Aquarium. She openly admitted to me she had no disabilities but because it's such a touchy thing, how people with SDs can be questioned or not, often people use that to their advantage. She's probably shared that story with many more people some of whom will go ahead and pretend to have SDs as well. So it goes..

I know some SD owners don't like having to be questioned but the other side of this coin is people will do what this lady did and I'm sure others are doing, ignore the rules.

IMO it would be better if SDs and their owners carried some form of special ID with their pic and the dogs pic and other pertinent info. That way if questioned all they have to do is present the ID.

If more and more people keep faking eventually this is going to be needed. I would love to take my dogs more places but IMO unless it's a working SD the grocery store is not appropriate for dogs in general.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I bumped into a lady at petsmart last year who bragged about bringing her dog, a GSD to the Atlanta Aquarium. She openly admitted to me she had no disabilities but because it's such a touchy thing, how people with SDs can be questioned or not, often people use that to their advantage. She's probably shared that story with many more people some of whom will go ahead and pretend to have SDs as well. So it goes..
> 
> I know some SD owners don't like having to be questioned but the other side of this coin is people will do what this lady did and I'm sure others are doing, ignore the rules.
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree more.. Side note, do you live close to ATL?



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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

This is a really tough topic. I've gotten involved in my local service dog community this last year and helped some locals and non-locals with training their SDs, all of them had invisible disabilities. I've heard more stories about issues with public access than I can count at this point, and it is disheartening.

People who "game the system" and try and bring their non-service dogs into public places that don't allow dogs are doing a disservice to the people who do require service dogs. Service dogs are trained animals with high expectations set for them. An example... a service dog isn't going to lift it's leg and pee on the bottom shelf at a grocery store - someone's pet absolutely could. Service dog handlers do not need any more trouble, they have more than enough as it is - which is why I wish people respected the seriousness of a service animal more than they seem to.

I think it is extremely important for business owners and management to be watchful and ask to see proof if there is a problem in their area with fake service dogs causing trouble. 

On that note, service dog laws (depending on where you live) sometimes don't even require that dogs wear service dog vests or visual indication of what they are! It is also illegal to ask what a person's disabilities are. I believe you can only ask if the dog is a service dog, and what tasks it is trained to do.

In Canada, disabled persons require a doctors note that clearly states that yes, this person is disabled and requires full public access with their service animal. This note is direct verification from a Doctor. If a person does not have this note, they can be denied access. With the note, it is illegal to deny them access (unless it is in the kitchen of a restaurant, an operating room or any other sterile environment). 

There are a lot of invisible disabilities. PTSD and psychiatric service dogs are more and more common these days for good reason, and these dogs are literally the only reason some of these people can function in public. They service a pretty amazing purpose.

I digress... people who bring their pets into no-dogs-allowed public places are doing a disservice to those who require service animals. Everyone wants to bring their dogs everywhere, but that just isn't how things will ever work.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I know some SD owners don't like having to be questioned but the other side of this coin is people will do what this lady did and I'm sure others are doing, ignore the rules.
> 
> IMO it would be better if SDs and their owners carried some form of special ID with their pic and the dogs pic and other pertinent info. That way if questioned all they have to do is present the ID.


This. I know someone personally who, if questioned in public about his service dog, will have a manic episode for the rest of the day and become overwhelmed with anxiety. He is PTSD, severe anxiety and dissociative disorder... he went to go get business cards printed that explain what a service dog is, the laws and how not to disturb his dog or talk to him because it does damage to his well being. He told me if somebody tries to talk to him he gives them a card and literally immediately gets away from them to prevent triggering his symptoms. 

In the end, though... asking for proof is extremely fair and even responsible - but for some people it can be triggering. It's a hard balance. I really wish there was an international organization that could certify dogs, along with a Doctor's note that confirms disability and need of a service dog, and require all service dogs wear a vest - I think that would be a very good way to help keep false SDs out of public access.

There are several websites where anyone can order "service dog IDs" from... pretty scary... It would be great to have ONE OFFICIAL governing body and official IDs so people can spot fake vs. real SDs.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I don't see this as a difficult topic....there are those who truly need a SD and there are those who do not. 

I don't believe anybody in here is passing judgment on those who properly qualify for a SD....

We all agree those who abuse or fraud this exception regarding "service dogs" are scum.

Even the less than obvious benefits ( invisible disabilities ) a SD provides ....once discovered, would be welcomed by most all of us since we are fans of dogs and the extra value they bring to the table for other humans with disabilities.

The lady who bragged about bringing her GSD to the aquarium and openly admitting she has no disabilities...is garbage and I would have let her know. But I also understand, she and others like her....are simply better than you and me.....just ask them.


SuperG


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Yes it is sad that people would park in a handicapped space with a permit" then jump out of the car and run in the store" then some poor soul that needed to park there can't! On a lighter note I think we are seeing more dogs in the store" because all of the different kinds of dog food. Lol Bill

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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Yeah, and that's the other side of this deal for me: I'm jealous that they are bringing their dogs wherever they go. I would love to bring my dogs in every store too. I do understand a grocery store is no place for a dog, though, UNLESS it's a REAL SD. So I find that, more than my petty jealousy, is the fact that I volunteer myself to police the zone and I seek out a worker or manager to ask about said "SD" in the grocery store. I guess my frustration stems from the fact that the employees seem to act like their hands are tied and they can't do anything, or are afraid to even ask the person if it's a SD. So now I see the person walking around with their nose up in the air and little Fluffy Foo Foo at their feet, basically getting away with the crime right in front of me. I'm not very confrontational, because I'd probably lose control if it became an argument, which is why I seek out the "authority" aka the store workers who should and DO have the power to question the person as to why they have a dog in the grocery store. We're heading up to Boise today to do more grocery shopping. I'll have to keep my eye out for any dogs again, and this time I'll make sure I seek out ONLY the manager to see what they do and say. I think it's ridiculous that people will take advantage of this system and abuse it, which ultimately effects others who have real SDs.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

We see it around here fairly often. It doesn't bother me too much (legit SDs or even a well behaved dog not at all) but those times when it's obvious the dog is just an untrained pet, I get irritated. With so many little dogs that are untrained, including PT, I don't like seeing them pushed around in the same shopping carts people use for food.


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## SARpup (Jan 7, 2004)

I don't understand why people WANT to take their pets into places they are not allowed! I have worked socializing and training service dogs and the REAL ones are held to very high standards and training! I am always cautious and aware of what is going on with the dogs and how they behave because they are supposed to behave in a proper manner. I would not want my pet with me all the time and be worried they will not behave appropriately! I see lots of people now with the designer dogs in bags and stuff bringing them in to the stores and places they are not allowed. It really bugs me because taco bell dog in a bag is not a service dog! I don't know I just don't understand why you would WANT your dog with you, do you want the attention or do you feel cool having your designer dog with you! I would prefer to leave my dog and my kids AND sometimes my husband!! at home and do the grocery shopping myself in peace!


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

counter said:


> Yeah, and that's the other side of this deal for me: I'm jealous that they are bringing their dogs wherever they go. I would love to bring my dogs in every store too. I do understand a grocery store is no place for a dog, though, UNLESS it's a REAL SD. So I find that, more than my petty jealousy, is the fact that I volunteer myself to police the zone and I seek out a worker or manager to ask about said "SD" in the grocery store. I guess my frustration stems from the fact that the employees seem to act like their hands are tied and they can't do anything, or are afraid to even ask the person if it's a SD. So now I see the person walking around with their nose up in the air and little Fluffy Foo Foo at their feet, basically getting away with the crime right in front of me. I'm not very confrontational, because I'd probably lose control if it became an argument, which is why I seek out the "authority" aka the store workers who should and DO have the power to question the person as to why they have a dog in the grocery store. We're heading up to Boise today to do more grocery shopping. I'll have to keep my eye out for any dogs again, and this time I'll make sure I seek out ONLY the manager to see what they do and say. I think it's ridiculous that people will take advantage of this system and abuse it, which ultimately effects others who have real SDs.


If you see a dog that is obviously not a service dog, seek out the manager and make sure your complaint is bigger than the owner of the dog. You might have to threaten to call their corporate office. Retail managers have unfortunately not been told to do what is right but to do whatever gets their store in the least trouble.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Great advice from dobbydad. Coming from someone with a SD, this is the correct thing to do


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## RedIndae (Oct 19, 2013)

Wild Wolf said:


> This is a really tough topic. I've gotten involved in my local service dog community this last year and helped some locals and non-locals with training their SDs, all of them had invisible disabilities. I've heard more stories about issues with public access than I can count at this point, and it is disheartening.
> 
> People who "game the system" and try and bring their non-service dogs into public places that don't allow dogs are doing a disservice to the people who do require service dogs. Service dogs are trained animals with high expectations set for them. An example... a service dog isn't going to lift it's leg and pee on the bottom shelf at a grocery store - someone's pet absolutely could. Service dog handlers do not need any more trouble, they have more than enough as it is - which is why I wish people respected the seriousness of a service animal more than they seem to.
> 
> ...


Basically what Wild Wolf said. I'm a "local" and I have a SD. I have seen poorly trained organization dogs first hand myself and a friend who has seen a fake service dog being pushed around in a stroller. But that's a different story..

I have PTSD and other disabilities that are not very apparent. I myself do not mind answering questions or dealing with the public. Two of my other SD handler friends that train with me at the same facility do have issues with the questions.

If you see a "service dog" misbehaving, let store management know and they can legally ask them to leave.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

DobbyDad said:


> If you see a dog that is obviously not a service dog, seek out the manager and make sure your complaint is bigger than the owner of the dog. You might have to threaten to call their corporate office. Retail managers have unfortunately not been told to do what is right but to do whatever gets their store in the least trouble.


 
Back from visiting multiple grocery stores up in Boise, and no supposed SDs seen today. Oh well! I'm all for real SDs in any and every store, but my blood boils when I see obviously fake SDs being taken where they aren't allowed, and then the fact that no one else seems to see them or care to do anything about it. I'll volunteer to be the one who asks the questions, especially in defense of all of the people with real SDs.

And like many of you have stated previously, not every disability can be seen or understood externally. I have worked around many with PTSD and other military-related disabilities, and you would never tell just by looking at them.


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

counter said:


> Back from visiting multiple grocery stores up in Boise, and no supposed SDs seen today. Oh well! I'm all for real SDs in any and every store, but my blood boils when I see obviously fake SDs being taken where they aren't allowed, and then the fact that no one else seems to see them or care to do anything about it. I'll volunteer to be the one who asks the questions, especially in defense of all of the people with real SDs.
> 
> And like many of you have stated previously, not every disability can be seen or understood externally. I have worked around many with PTSD and other military-related disabilities, and you would never tell just by looking at them.



I for one, thank you.


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

I was at walmart the other day and saw a lady with a yorkie sitting in the cart. I think people with toy breeds think they can take their dogs everywhere because they are so small so the NO dog rules don't apply to them. 

I don't see many service dogs around here, but when I do they are always in vests and have identification.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I have noticed an increase in dogs who are in stores, and only two of them I saw had some kind of vest on to mark that they were a service dog and were on regular 6 ft leads with their attention on their handlers. There is a very specific type of mannerism that a highly trained dog should have. They are going to be paying a good amount of attention to their handlers. They are calm and quiet, they stay close to their handler. In the case of the guide dog who I know, he is ever vigilant of where she is and what they are encountering. She actually comes out with us on hikes with her guide dog. She's one of the bravest people who I know honestly. Not only is she blind, but she has some neurologic issues as well and her guide dog alerts her to those as well. It is amazing seeing them as a team, and the one time she let him have a bit of freedom at the end of a hike, he had NO idea what to do with himself. 

I usually am more suspicious about if the dog is a service dog based more on how the dog acts, and honestly anyone who has a flexi-lead on their dog in the store. I've run into at least two or three dogs in that kind of situation. One was an older couple who had a terrier looking thing on a flexi-lead in walmart. The dog was staying close however and watching them, so he had that going for him. The other was a heeler who barked at us before his owner called him down the aisle. And the last was only a few nights ago, which was an older gentleman with a scooter and an elderly cocker who looked very concerned at his master who was standing and putting his groceries away at Winco.

I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt, as I truly understand invisible disabilities, but it gets harder to question is that person really needing that dog or not when you cannot easily mark out that the dog is special. You can even buy little tags or leash wraps for about 5 bucks if you couldn't afford a vest. People seem to recognize the vest and the guide dog harness. But those animals should be held to an extremely high standard, as their jobs are something their handler depends on them for. It really is not an easy job for a dog.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

scarfish said:


> i don't want to sound like a jerk but i feel some service dogs are over prescribed and over abused like handicapped parking permits..


 
THANK YOU!!! I saw the SAME thing working front desk at a fancy hotel here in town. And we were NOT allowed to ask them anything -- it was in our rule book! So anybody could come in with an animal with any kind of apparatus on and be called a "service animal" ....I call BS

I want to take my dog everywhere with me..where can I get one of those vests?


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

lyssa62 said:


> THANK YOU!!! I saw the SAME thing working front desk at a fancy hotel here in town. And we were NOT allowed to ask them anything -- it was in our rule book! So anybody could come in with an animal with any kind of apparatus on and be called a "service animal" ....I call BS
> 
> I want to take my dog everywhere with me..where can I get one of those vests?



So because some people break the law, you want to now? You make life all that much more difficult for people with SDs. Be ashamed. Be very ashamed 


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Thewretched said:


> So because some people break the law, you want to now? You make life all that much more difficult for people with SDs. Be ashamed. Be very ashamed
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc



Exactly. That's like saying you want an electronic wheelchair/scooter because you'd like to go everywhere without having to walk.



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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's human nature though. If enough people get away with breaking the rules those who follow the rules aren't rewarded why should anyone follow the rules? It hits a critical mass where a handful of people who do follow the rules live the example of "virtue is it's own reward and that's all it will ever be". 

To a certain extent this is due to the sensitivities of those really needing SDs. They have to choose pushing for and allowing some questioning regarding their dogs status else the rules can't be enforced.

The honor system just doesn't work if those following the rules end up feeling taken advantage of.

I've suggested in the past, another thread an idea that crackem brought up. Why not let more people, who pass a test with their dog and get a certification have more access to public? Granted they wouldn't be able to take their dogs as many places as SDs would have access to BUT if we rewarded people who followed rules then there would be fewer people ignoring them.


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## blueangele (Aug 5, 2013)

I was a manager at walmart for 13 years...our service dog policy? only the people greeter can ask a customer if the dog is a service dog, if the customer says yes, then they can come in, if the dog causes any issues then they can be asked to leave...and it didn't have to be just dogs, but could be any type of animal, parrot, monkey, cat, etc. And people know it, so we had tons of animals in our store


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

In my area I have not seen this, with one exception. For a couple months last year I saw a black lab mix with a service dog vest on. It was either a fake or a very poor candidate for a service dog because it walked through two different grocery stores very fearful, skittish, tail between it's legs.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

That's it....tomorrow...I'm riding in the electric carts the grocery store has AND bringing my unruly GSD to the grocery store.....cutting her loose in the meat department.


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

blueangele said:


> I was a manager at walmart for 13 years...our service dog policy? only the people greeter can ask a customer if the dog is a service dog, if the customer says yes, then they can come in, if the dog causes any issues then they can be asked to leave...and it didn't have to be just dogs, but could be any type of animal, parrot, monkey, cat, etc. And people know it, so we had tons of animals in our store



Interesting.....good info...thanks.

SuperG


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Bob_McBob said:


> Home Depot Canada banned non-service dogs from their stores several years ago after a shih tzu bit off part of an employee's nose. ...


How tall was that employee? Or that shih Tzu must be quite a jumper to be able to reach the human nose.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

SuperG said:


> That's it....tomorrow...I'm riding in the electric carts the grocery store has AND bringing my unruly GSD to the grocery store.....cutting her loose in the meat department.
> 
> 
> SuperG


While I'd love a video of this...  I hope that there's sarcasm there..


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Serbrider said:


> While I'd love a video of this...  I hope that there's sarcasm there..


Just a wee bit I must admit....but it would make for an "interesting" moment.

SuperG


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

scarfish said:


> i don't want to sound like a jerk but i feel some service dogs are over prescribed and over abused like handicapped parking permits. i'm sorry but one of the last national news stories was a vet missing part of a leg and was wearing a prostetic. he was asked to leave or explain why he needed the dog. he was walking so fine people couldn't tell any disability. he said in a news interview that the dog was a service dog to turn lights on and off and open and close doors. you do those actions with your arms and his were fine. i can understand having a dog turn the wall switch light off for you if you're not wearing your expensive leg while in your house. the dog wasn't doing anything for him in starbucks. i would like to see the surveillance video, i'm sure he opened the door to get in with his hand and didn't turn the lights off in starbucks.


No, I do not think you are a jerk. I let my feelings be known a few times on this subject.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

He may have been bending over to pet the little dog, or picking it up to pet it. There's a number of ways.

btw- the Home Depots around here no longer allow dogs (except SDs) into the stores. 

Lowes still allows it but I've gotten some really harsh stares from some of the employees, probably because they've had bad experiences with untrained dogs in the store.



alexg said:


> How tall was that employee? Or that shih Tzu must be quite a jumper to be able to reach the human nose.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

alexg said:


> How tall was that employee? Or that shih Tzu must be quite a jumper to be able to reach the human nose.


Certain Shih Tzus were taken in by kung fu masters and taught the arts of Tán Tuǐ which means springing leg style.....

Not many Shih Tzus from that bloodline remain today but obviously this Shih Tzu was from this particular pedigree. 

Don't kid yourselves, these Shih Tzus lull you into a sense of ease with the cute little doggy at your ankles and then BOOM....the dog is 4-6 feet off the ground ripping your throat out .....plus they can "float" around a room in one springing style and take out at least 5-6 people in one fell swoop.

Oh.....they scoff at e collars set on max.....just makes them ornery is about all.

SuperG


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Super G! LOL! 

...but I know a stealth shih Tzu, IRL! She will run up to you, with those oversized buggly eyes they have, look up into your face as though begging for attention then when you reach down to pet her, BAM nail you. Granted her teeth are tiny and she probably has 2 pounds of bite pressure but she can leave a nasty scratch.

Never underestimate the power of Shih Tzu.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> He may have been bending over to pet the little dog, or picking it up to pet it. There's a number of ways.
> ...


Exactly my point: Had that employee left the little doggy alone he would still have his nose intact.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

True.

I'm not sure what happened in our area Home Depots but as a business owner I can guess that it was too much hassle (untrained, ill behaved dogs) for little to no return.



alexg said:


> Exactly my point: Had that employee left the little doggy alone he would still have his nose intact.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Also, just gotta add on topic, I'm really surprised at how SD handlers are sort-a shooting themselves in the foot.

Based on serbrider's comments in my thread this opposition to any kind of consistent I.D. for SDs may well backfire.

Just sayin'......


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Just to clarify, I'm not opposed to carrying an ID. I carry ID cards with law info and information on my dog's trained tasks (well, they currently say that she's in training to complete those tasks, but when she's fully trained in a year or so they will have her trained tasks that relate to public access on them). So do most SD handlers.

But... I do not think they should be NECESSARY. That's all.


....just sayin'.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

If it's not required that defeats the purpose.

But...you know what, I'm one of those dolts that follows the rules. 

So it won't make a difference to me if food safety becomes such a concern because all the 'fakers' mess it up for legit SDs that rules get changed or made even stricter.....it won't be my problem.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

It's not required. 

Check the ADA rules.

Commonly Asked Questions About Service Animals in Places of Business

"Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task."

I carry the ID because it makes my life easier. But it is not legally required, and shouldn't be.

ETA:

BUT, staff ARE allowed to ask two questions.

"Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform."

And then deny service because of that. AS WELL AS deny service based on unruly behavior such as inappropriate elimination, barking, or aggression.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Have you been reading this thread? Including my story, which is true and first hand? Have you read some of the other responses?

Let's just say, there's your sign of what may be coming down the road.....


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Yes. I have been. Your story just showed that businesses do not know THEIR rights either. BUSINESSES can ask for information on the dogs. Two questions. If handlers wish to use ID cards to answer those questions, then that's up to them. But businesses CAN and SHOULD ask those two basic questions. An ID may or may not make any difference at all, if the businesses don't have the knowledge that they are allowed to ask those questions.

It's a lack of ADA education. Not something that legitimate service dog handlers are doing wrong. That's all I'm trying to say.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

btw- facebook is a great place for validation, not to get all sides of an issue.

Here's a hypothetical.

These 'non-rules' make it harder for businesses. They also enable fakers. period.

One of these days, like the lady who took her GSD to the ATL aquarium, a 'faker' dog is going to bite a kid, really bad.

The ATL aquarium is going to get sued out the wazoo....

You know what's going to happen after that, more businesses are going to get nervous about all these colorful dogs in their stores.

They're going to get together and push for more rules and regulations. They may even push to limit access because it's become such a serious problem as more and more dogs get the designation 'service dog'.

The general public probably won't be too sympathetic because the ones following the rules and not bringing their dogs places like the aquarium won't be loosing anything, basically.

Meanwhile the price of aquarium tickets just went up and so did the loaf of bread because the grocer had to through out an entire lower shelf due to contamination from a dog peeing on it.

All because you guys think it's a moral right to have outfits that don't clash with your dogs? (as you said in the other thread).

Anyhoo, like I said, doesn't affect me. Knock yourself out but if my scenario comes true over time I won't have much sympathy.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

"All because you guys think it's a moral right to have outfits that don't clash with your dogs"

Umm... how on earth does using a pink or purple or blue vest vs a red one make that faker not skirt the law and bring their dog into the aquarium?

The answer, it doesn't.

The lack of ADA education on all sides does.


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## Bob_McBob (Nov 15, 2012)

alexg said:


> How tall was that employee? Or that shih Tzu must be quite a jumper to be able to reach the human nose.


The owner had the dog in her cart, and it jumped up and bit a greeter that bent slightly to pet it while handing a flyer to the owner at the entrance.

Shih Tzu bites off tip of Home Depot greeter's nose | National Post

I checked some followup articles, and it looks like the greeter sued the dog owner and got a settlement from her insurance company. There are photos of the injury, and it is pretty bad; the dog basically bit off the tip of her nose. The dog was not put to sleep, and the owner heavily contested the fine she received. The dog had a muzzle order put in place which was lifted after the owner fought that too. Home Depot banned non-service dogs from all their Canadian stores after this incident.

Nose-biting Shih Tzu won't be put down | Ottawa & Region | News | Ottawa Sun

Woman bit by dog gets settlement | Ottawa & Region | News | Ottawa Sun


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It'll minimize fakers. *Most* people won't go to great lengths and buy special I.D. colored vests and such.

*Most* people just won't invest that much energy and money into it.

Some people may but than you'd be letting perfect be the enemy of good. if that is a reason to not make things better.

As it stands now they just have to know how to answer two questions. That lady at Petsmart happily shared with me how she got into the ATL aquarium after all. 



Serbrider said:


> "All because you guys think it's a moral right to have outfits that don't clash with your dogs"
> 
> Umm... how on earth does using a pink or purple or blue vest vs a red one make that faker not skirt the law and bring their dog into the aquarium?
> 
> ...


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It'll minimize fakers. *Most* people won't go to great lengths and buy special I.D. colored vests and such.
> 
> *Most* people just won't invest that much energy and money into it.
> 
> ...


Unless it's government issued and your doctor orders it for you as part of a prescription (which, thinking through it, seems to be the only semi legitimate way for it to happen), yes, that is how people get vests and IDs. They go to websites that claim to certify or register service dogs and get those "special" vests and IDs, because they think that it's more official.

Or they buy the vests that have "service dog" on the side from ebay or amazon.

Either way, you still have the fakers and the troublemakers who want to bring their dogs anywhere, unless it is government issued and regulated, which brings in a whole 'nother set of issues.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks for the information. I wonder if that affected the decisions at Home Depots in the U.S. too?



Bob_McBob said:


> The owner had the dog in her cart, and it jumped up and bit a greeter that bent slightly to pet it while handing a flyer to the owner at the entrance.
> 
> Shih Tzu bites off tip of Home Depot greeter's nose | National Post
> 
> ...


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Thanks for the information. I wonder if that affected the decisions at Home Depots in the U.S. too?


The home depot lady who is planning our kitchen and bathroom only mentioned to us that is was a canadian thing.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Serbrider said:


> Unless it's government issued and your doctor orders it for you as part of a prescription (which, thinking through it, seems to be the only semi legitimate way for it to happen), yes, that is how people get vests and IDs. They go to websites that claim to certify or register service dogs and get those "special" vests and IDs, because they think that it's more official.
> 
> Or they buy the vests that have "service dog" on the side from ebay or amazon.
> 
> Either way, you still have the fakers and the troublemakers who want to bring their dogs anywhere, unless it is government issued and regulated, which brings in a whole 'nother set of issues.


A service dog vest should be treated the same as a handicapped parking permit placard.....there shouldn't really be any variants and hopefully all would advertise the fact the dog is a service dog...

When I was looking at the little white poodle I saw in the grocery store a few days ago, I didn't see anything on this cutsie-pie vest the dog was wearing to suggest it was a SD.

Funny thing.....even if there was an official SD vest...it wouldn't matter because I just Googled "Handicapped parking permits" and I could buy all I want for a few dollars.....so the same thing would happen with an "official" SD vest as you have already suggested.

Oh well, there are no depths to which some folks will sink to take advantage of a well intended benefit for those who truly are helped by SDs.

Personally, I rather enjoy seeing SDs in places where regular dogs are not allowed...I only wish I could scratch their ears and give them a belly whomp....those SDs are so calm, cool and collected.


SuperG


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Dogs are no longer allowed in the home depots around where I live too. So it's happening at stores in the U.S. too.



misslesleedavis1 said:


> The home depot lady who is planning our kitchen and bathroom only mentioned to us that is was a canadian thing.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Ok. So maybe ignorant question. Why would people, with and without, a disability be against a formal certification? Why is this a problem? I know not all dogs are trained for the same things, but being able to demonstrate skills and basic manners for an impartial judge? Why is this not done? It would not disqualify owner trained dogs, it could even be a minimal fee, to pay for evaluators. That way, if questioned, all that needs to be shown is a cert card. 

Not trying to be difficult, just a question. 


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Ok. So maybe ignorant question. Why would people, with and without, a disability be against a formal certification? Why is this a problem? I know not all dogs are trained for the same things, but being able to demonstrate skills and basic manners for an impartial judge? Why is this not done? It would not disqualify owner trained dogs, it could even be a minimal fee, to pay for evaluators. That way, if questioned, all that needs to be shown is a cert card.
> 
> Not trying to be difficult, just a question.
> 
> ...


Good question....my knee jerk reaction might suggest in this overly litigious society we live in...corporations might not welcome the idea of incredibly well trained non SDs in their establishments.....for fear of the ensuing law suits by people who were traumatized because a dog licked his chops while looking at their small children.....who knows......but I do like your thinking.


SuperG


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## Thewretched (Jan 1, 2014)

Because it's down to who's disability is worse? You could argue some peoples fear of dogs are disabling, so where are their rights? It should be only dogs for people who need it. You need the dog there, it isn't fun, it isn't cute, it just makes it tolerable. You want a wheelchair because you don't want to stand? It's a crutch. 


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Ok. So maybe ignorant question. Why would people, with and without, a disability be against a formal certification? Why is this a problem? I know not all dogs are trained for the same things, but being able to demonstrate skills and basic manners for an impartial judge? Why is this not done? It would not disqualify owner trained dogs, it could even be a minimal fee, to pay for evaluators. That way, if questioned, all that needs to be shown is a cert card.
> 
> Not trying to be difficult, just a question.
> 
> ...


For me at least, I'm an owner trainer. I have nothing against a test doing basic skills and basic manners... the problem is more about an impartial judge... and the fear that there would not be an impartial judge, and my dog would not be "certified" because of their breed or what people might think about doing it for a mental illness.

I do plan on getting CGC and doing public access tests when I can.

I think for other people who are owner training and are on a very limited budget, it's the fear of the limited funds and what might have to go along with the cost of doing it. Like the additional required vests and such that could potentially cost a buttload of money. Someone living on social security checks who need their dog to hopefully try to go back to work... might not have $200-500 of expendable money at a time, because what they do have goes into making sure the dog is fed, gets the proper vet checkups, etc.

Or... for those who don't live in big cities. Will the impartial judge travel to them? Or will they have to pay out of their own pocket and get on potentially problematic public transportation with a not yet legal service dog to go to those large cities?

I don't have anything against an impartial government funded thing, if it didn't isolate service dog handlers or make it more difficult for them (like, you need this specific gear, that you "might" get funding for but most likely you have to pay for yourself). The point of having some sort of government regulated certification would be to make it easier on the people... not harder.

Right now it's easy. Doctor approval, training of a task that mitigates the disability, and doing it. Too easy perhaps and that is why people are able to fake it. There needs to be something to weed out the fakers. More education. More awareness. Harsher punishments? Different rules? I don't know. But not at the expense of those who really need the help the dogs provide.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I get it. But maybe it could be as simple as having an impartial person get a cert through a national org and then administer the test. Like a CGC evaluators. They are everywhere. 

To test for cert, you have to provide the evaluator you prescription for the dog, explain their tasks and then demonstrate basic manners, and if able the tasks they are trained to mitigate. For those that have disabilities that are hard to demonstrate( diabetes, seizure, PTSD) a video of 2 instances where the dog did their job. 

I am just thinking out loud. 


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

The closest CGC evaluator to me is 35 minutes away with a very rural environment in between. For me, with a driver's license and my own vehicle, not a problem.

For someone else with limited mobility, no friends or family who can help, no driver's license or vehicle of their own due to their disability, it becomes extremely difficult. There is one bus service that can take you into the nearby city that is actually an hour and a half away at 6:45 PM. $30-35 one way. The return bus doesn't become available until 9 PM the following morning. Which, unless there were late night consultations available, means that the person would have to find a hotel not just for one night, but two nights. And since the dog in question isn't yet certified, they'd have to pay pet fees. Hotels around here that allow pets run around $50 per night on the cheapest end. So, without even starting to look at the certification costs and in town transportation to get to those places, they're looking at a minimum of $160-170 just to get there. Not the mention the difficulties faced by their dog not being certified so they don't have public access, so could they even use the public transportation available in that town, how do they safely get themselves things that they need, in a strange town, without assistance, etc. And what about the dog, does this person have to carry around a large crate as well as all of their other stuff so they can safely keep the dog in the hotel room until they have the option?

There's just a lot of hoops to jump through. I'm not saying it's not a good idea... but a lot to consider. What might be an afternoon of ease for one person, turns into a several day long extremely difficult ordeal for someone else.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Ok. So maybe ignorant question. Why would people, with and without, a disability be against a formal certification? Why is this a problem? I know not all dogs are trained for the same things, but being able to demonstrate skills and basic manners for an impartial judge? Why is this not done? It would not disqualify owner trained dogs, it could even be a minimal fee, to pay for evaluators. That way, if questioned, all that needs to be shown is a cert card.
> 
> Not trying to be difficult, just a question.
> 
> ...


Thinking the same ^ or if this is an issue, don't doctors prescribe service dogs? Maybe states could issue some kind of difficult to counterfeit "ID" that could be carried and shown if need be, don't have it, your dog doesn't come in. The ID wouldn't need to contain anything other than "person so and so is legally authorized to have a service dog, issued by the state of ??"


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Serbrider said:


> The closest CGC evaluator to me is 35 minutes away with a very rural environment in between. For me, with a driver's license and my own vehicle, not a problem.
> 
> For someone else with limited mobility, no friends or family who can help, no driver's license or vehicle of their own due to their disability, it becomes extremely difficult. There is one bus service that can take you into the nearby city that is actually an hour and a half away at 6:45 PM. $30-35 one way. The return bus doesn't become available until 9 PM the following morning. Which, unless there were late night consultations available, means that the person would have to find a hotel not just for one night, but two nights. And since the dog in question isn't yet certified, they'd have to pay pet fees. Hotels around here that allow pets run around $50 per night on the cheapest end. So, without even starting to look at the certification costs and in town transportation to get to those places, they're looking at a minimum of $160-170 just to get there. Not the mention the difficulties faced by their dog not being certified so they don't have public access, so could they even use the public transportation available in that town, how do they safely get themselves things that they need, in a strange town, without assistance, etc. And what about the dog, does this person have to carry around a large crate as well as all of their other stuff so they can safely keep the dog in the hotel room until they have the option?
> 
> There's just a lot of hoops to jump through. I'm not saying it's not a good idea... but a lot to consider. What might be an afternoon of ease for one person, turns into a several day long extremely difficult ordeal for someone else.




Ok. So if getting around to a locality is that difficult, are they really out and about with their dog? If they can't drive, or don't have someone drive them 35 minutes away, how are they out and about with their service animal? Unless they live in a stupidly small town(to which I am sure residents would be aware) or they can't be in public anyway due to transportation. 


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

My town isn't a "small" town. It's actually a college town with 10,000 enrolled students in addition to other mid sized town amenities. There are multiple large stores, shopping centers, etc. And there are "rural rides" transportation for qualified individuals within the town. A TON of places where a service dog would be necessary and enough turnover that it's not at all like a small town where everybody knows everybody. No CGC evaluator though.

And it's really not that unusual of a town. I know of quite a few in similar situations that my friends came from. Just poorer rural environments with very little public transportation, but large enough suburbs/cities that access could easily be in question.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Dogs are no longer allowed in the home depots around where I live too. So it's happening at stores in the U.S. too.


Official Corporate Policy at Lowes and Home Depot is "no dogs" but individual stores can choose to allow them.

Our local stores used to allow dogs until the idiot pet owners started using the garden centers as off-leash dog parks. Few hundred dollars in damages later and multiple requests to keep their dogs leashed, they decided to just say "no dogs"


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm not sure what particular problems caused it here but the three closest Home Depots to me, NO dogs allowed except SDs.

Closest Lowes allows dogs. We train there sometimes but always on leash and it's proofing OB. 




Dainerra said:


> Official Corporate Policy at Lowes and Home Depot is "no dogs" but individual stores can choose to allow them.
> 
> Our local stores used to allow dogs until the idiot pet owners started using the garden centers as off-leash dog parks. Few hundred dollars in damages later and multiple requests to keep their dogs leashed, they decided to just say "no dogs"


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Serbrider said:


> Exactly. That's like saying you want an electronic wheelchair/scooter because you'd like to go everywhere without having to walk.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



That is so annoying. My cousin told me that she wished I could go every where with her, because I have handicap parking. I told her I wished I could walk without pain and falling. She did not get it.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Ok. So maybe ignorant question. Why would people, with and without, a disability be against a formal certification? Why is this a problem? I know not all dogs are trained for the same things, but being able to demonstrate skills and basic manners for an impartial judge? Why is this not done? It would not disqualify owner trained dogs, it could even be a minimal fee, to pay for evaluators. That way, if questioned, all that needs to be shown is a cert card.
> 
> Not trying to be difficult, just a question.
> 
> ...



Some things Fiona does for me cannot be tested. She grounds me when I get a dizzy spell. But I cannot predict when it is going to happen. My employer wanted this test. I said how about the 5 firemen who saw her keep me upright when I got hit by a dizzy spell in the grocery store testify. But all SD can be expected to at least pass CGC.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

counter said:


> Back from visiting multiple grocery stores up in Boise, and no supposed SDs seen today. Oh well! I'm all for real SDs in any and every store, but my blood boils when I see obviously fake SDs being taken where they aren't allowed, and then the fact that no one else seems to see them or care to do anything about it. I'll volunteer to be the one who asks the questions, especially in defense of all of the people with real SDs.
> 
> And like many of you have stated previously, not every disability can be seen or understood externally. I have worked around many with PTSD and other military-related disabilities, and you would never tell just by looking at them.



I do ask. If I see a person with an "SD" with a misbehaving dog, I will say something to them. I live in a county in Ca that actually issues a license for SD. I ask if they have one and show them Fiona's. I tell them that they make it harder on people like me. "Thanks for making my life harder than it already is."


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ya know as a small business owner I can say when you hear them complaining about the cost of regulations one of the biggies that is one of the few overbearing federal regs that affects almost all brick & mortar establishments.... ADA.

Then you add on to that SDs that aren't held to any standards, PC gone overboard so you can't figure out if someone is even faking it with their pet dog, a lack of professionalism amongst what are supposed to be working dogs, disabled people suing businesses, no easy visible ID because they want to be able to have "outfits that don't clash" with their dogs, the ever increasing reasons dogs can be classified as service dogs, it's getting so onerous as to be unsustainable.

No wonder businesses and citizens are starting to feel taken advantage of, not to mention the costs involved being passed on to all of us.

If SD owners don't start thinking about reaching out and meeting people and businesses in the middle here, adhere to some standards, the whole system is going to collapse. 

It's hard enough to get a business up and going in this country and to not think about how to make it easier for businesses and the public to comply while meeting the needs of people who REALLY need a SD is illogical, unfair and self defeating.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This is what is needed. More peer pressure from within the community of SD handlers for consistency and standards and professionalism. 





Cheyanna said:


> I do ask. If I see a person with an "SD" with a misbehaving dog, I will say something to them. I live in a county in Ca that actually issues a license for SD. I ask if they have one and show them Fiona's. I tell them that they make it harder on people like me. "Thanks for making my life harder than it already is."
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> Ok. So maybe ignorant question. Why would people, with and without, a disability be against a formal certification? Why is this a problem? I know not all dogs are trained for the same things, but being able to demonstrate skills and basic manners for an impartial judge? Why is this not done? It would not disqualify owner trained dogs, it could even be a minimal fee, to pay for evaluators. That way, if questioned, all that needs to be shown is a cert card.
> 
> Not trying to be difficult, just a question.
> 
> ...


This is actually a very simple answer which lies at the basis of the law…to ask someone to prove/test that something they need for a more normal life is in effect discriminatory which is exactly what the law is trying to prevent. It’s all about not making people have to jump through hoops and do extra steps. The people the dogs are helping are already disabled, what’s the point of making it more difficult to get help?

There was a person on here about a year ago that was on a panel or an organization of some sort that was trying to put together a more inclusive guideline for service dogs that they were going to try to present to law makers and try to get pushed through as an addition to the current law. Unfortunately, like all things made in a committee or by an organization, it sounded extremely exclusive and from the get go you could easily tell that no one in the service dog community, from trainers, to handlers, to breeders, would ever agree on a more detailed set of guidelines or requirements.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The problem is the system is way too adversarial. As I have learned the last couple of days that is in large part due to SD owners themselves.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The problem is the system is way too adversarial. As I have learned the last couple of days that is in large part due to SD owners themselves.


It’s not the SD handlers…its everyone. It’s today’s American culture. I’m not sure how many times I run into someone who does something because it’s their legal right to do so without any worry about actually caring if its morally okay. Tons of times people believe that if they have the legal right to do something, it doesn’t matter what kind of a human being they’re being.

Unfortunately, we probably all do this in our day to day life. Like, I can recall how someone didn’t want dogs walking on their front lawn and actually confronted a neighbor about it…well, IMO…you just ruined a relationship with someone that is probably going to live there for a while and there is a chance you’ll need them for something at one point…but your “personal property” was more important and you can’t have a dog walk through it for 30 seconds.

The funny thing about licensing/testing…look up some “dog license” threads. See how people feel about those…and those are just regular pets. People hate the government telling them what they can and can’t do, or paying even a nominal fee for a license that they don’t believe is necessary.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've actually been involved in some of those licensing threads. I commented that we'd rather cater to the lowest common denominator then incentivize and reward those who would put the effort in to do better. There is a punitive nature to this country.

Having said that this really wouldn't be an insurmountable problem to solve, but if it isn't solved the problem will only get worse.

But that's so boring, when matching outfits are so important and business owners can be bullied with impunity.



> Business owners also face problems. In August, Russell Ireland banned a dog from his Oxford, Mass., diner after its owner put a plate of food on the floor for the dog.
> 
> James Glasser claimed it was a legitimate service animal and took part in a boycott of the diner. There was talk of a lawsuit. Ireland apologized. _The dog's actual status is unclear.
> _
> _Cook Justin Fisher said his boss' reputation took a beating. Business is just now returning to normal_.


 Not all those involved in the Service Dog world are so unfair.



> _There needs to be a standard, said Jennifer Arnold, founder of Canine Assistants in Atlanta._ "The sticky part is who will do the testing and what will be the criteria for allowing dogs to be considered assistance dogs."
> 
> An ID card might be the simplest answer, she said, adding that she doesn't think the loss of privacy will be the big issue that some think it will be.


 Fake service dogs a growing problem - NBC News


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I was at the grocery and two people were walking out with puppies. I asked and they got them from the meat dept, I think the grocery stores are puppy mills and thats why you are seeing more dogs in the grocery store...


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