# Temperament Question - and the STANDARD



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I know there are GSDs out there like this-and this kind of requirement is quite like the CGC leave with stranger thing - but my question - *Is this within the true standard - what should I ask for when looking for a puppy/young adult to get a dog that will allow this kind of thing*? 

Current dogs (both WL) DO meet this requirement .......but I know aloofness and a certain amount of suspicion are desired traits................how do I phrase this requirement to a broker or breeder? Is this simply a "social" as opposed to a "civil" dog?

My requirements are based on experience on actual searches and they are real and it is a lot easier to find a dog that can meet them, I think, than to change the requirement.
----------

I honestly need my next GSD to be able to be handed off to a total stranger for transport without any issues -

Some examples - recent search - I did not feel comfortable riding with my dog on my lap on the road on an ATV so I handed him off to the coroner who transported him in the back of her SUV (no people room)-she commented on how he just settled in the back of her vehicle - 

I finish a sector with my dog and he is "done" and needs to get back to the truck but I need to flank for another. Hand him off to someone else to transport and load in the truck.

We have a requirement that team members can load and unload any team dogfrom their own truck because they may need to transport the dog out TO you - or take the dog out for a walk of move to a shady crate etc. We don't expect total strangers to remove a dog from their own vehicle.

My current working male is, in fact, aloof but relaxed with strangers and tolerates advances....loves kids. The female is a social butterfly with everyone....too much so in some regards.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I see suspicious and aloof as 2 different things. The aloof dog is one that really has no interest in interacting with strangers because there is no attraction there. The dog doesn't look to people for social interaction or play or anything else, and pretty much just ignores them. But this dog can, and IMO should be, approachable by neutral strangers. And also should be able to be handed off to someone and remain safe. Particularly when it is the handler doing the hand off and the dog is getting information from the handler that this person and this situation are ok.

The suspicious/sharp/civil/whatever word you want to use is a dog who goes beyond being aloof in the sense of having no interest in strangers to one who presuposes that everyone is worthy of suspicion, even when that person is being completely neutral. This sort of dog could be trained to accept this sort of handling, but would never be entirely comfortable with it or reliable.

One thing the GSD is supposed to have as a breed is discernment and the ability to read intent and respond appropriately. Some suspicion is appropriate, but only if people give a reason for the dog to suspect them. Dogs who are suspicious of everyone in every situation carry a bit too much of that trait. They should be approachable by neutral people, but at the same time aware enough that they do pick up and respond to someone behaving in a manner that should make them suspicious. If a dog is initially suspicious upon first encountering someone, but then assesses the situation and when that person shows there is no reason to be suspicious the dog then relaxes and is just aloof, that's ok too. But if a dog starts out suspicious and then stays suspicious even when the person has given the dog no reason to do that, and especially if the handler is accepting of the person, that's slanted a bit too far out of balance IMO.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I would imagine it's within the standard. From what it sounds like with Grim is that he's neutral with strangers. Does not necessarily WANT to be pet by them, but does not show aggression when unwarranted. Seems like the perfect standard that you have in that big Czech dog of yours


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Really don't understand your question....seems like you have two dogs that meet your requirements...get another dog from those lines and during puppyhood socialize and practice having the dog walked and taken by others and it should be no problem. If the dog is sound then it is what you make it.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Both dogs are different lines and I am not so sure I can find the same lines again as my male because now my dogs are older and now different dogs will be up close, So I need to be able to say "this is what I want out of a dog" and trust the breeder/broker to get me the same? Also, I know enough to know that some of the dogs in his line (e.g. Grim z ps up close) really have to go with the right "combo"

*So my question really is - how do I articulate the requirement and is it a reasonable one for the breed? For example I know that the term "off-switch" is widely understood. Is there terminology for a dog that is relaxed enough with strangers to allow me to do a hand-off? I do understand that I start of with my list of what the dog needs and bring that into the training.*

Actually, the female has some characteristics I do NOT want in regards to other requirements-and I got her before I had much SAR experience so I am not sure I appropriately articulated all that I needed. 

She is a bit dog agressive with strange dogs and I understand that may be in her lines (I can control it but always with one eye open and having to do that kind of monitoring is not good for SAR) - she is also highly distractable - a bit too independant (You need some but she could give a rats patootie what I think unless it involves a reward - where he is more in tune with me ). I think (had it not been for the hips) she would have been a heck of a prey driven sport dog.

I really understand a lot more about the SAR aspects than the dog aspects , particularly when it comes to breeding and lines etc.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Honestly, Nancy. Rather than try to come up with a vocabulary word that describes exactly what you mean (because even with commonly used terminology, there are still some differences in interpretation sometimes from one person to the next), just explain in detail what you are looking for and why, much like you did in this thread. Then you know the picture of what you want, and don't want, has been clearly painted without risking anything getting lost in translation.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't see a problem either. The dog is aloof to the stranger . The stranger should be somewhat aloof or business like themselves - so not force a socially awkward situation being all ooey and gooey and wanting instant love. 
The dog in your situation will be trained to this so that it is par for the course.
If it were a first time walk off the dog may be confused and want to resist and get back to you, the team that he belongs to . 
You can start with as something as simple as walking with an assistant . You set up a situation where you have to disappear for a moment , go back to the car, enter a building to "bank machine" . Hand the dog to the assistant , no big departure production. You go he stays . Assistant is just there. No need to engage the dog. Maybe the assistant can move off a little ways so that the dog moves with her. You come back -- no big rewards or big production -- none of this is a big deal.


see Anne the Vandals thread - you just gave me an idea , one that one of the regional police departments uses in their evaluation for taking dogs on.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nancy ask Mike psdontario how the dogs handed off.
We had police depts come pick up the dogs to test run them through tracking in standing water. Take them off to other locations for training. Gore landed on the tarmac in Oregon and was ready and eager to work. 
I think you are anxious about something that you don't need to be . The dog should be self confident , which means that he can master a situation , good COPING and good ADAPTABILITY skills.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I seem to remember you getting the female. What are her lines again.
you can pm me. actually the last post I thought I had pm'd to you .
Carmen


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

:hammer:

Thanks to everyone.........I see now stating the clear terminlogy of this is what I want to do with the dog and need to have him do makes the most sense -- as far as the breeding -- that is where you have to trust someone with the knowledge and experience to make it happen 

--- at least I have seen enough to know that just putting together two great dogs may not make a great litter (seen too many people, usually at my level, try that on their own and get a mess)


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Posted a long comment earlier and cyber gremlins ate it

Funny how we all use the same terminology and yet we understand it to mean different things....!!!!

To me, an aloof dog accepts the attention of strangers, but does not seek it. 

A civil dog is one who is not necessarily overly aloof or suspicious, can be social actually, and yet, is one who can discern the difference between a neutral person and a threat...who senses threat and can react in a real manner....not just in a sport manner. I have one like this, friendly with people, especially children, and not sleeve oriented in the sport....but very very strong in protection, as long as the helper is truly threatening...

Too bad I don't have Basha pups Nancy....she produced what you are looking for! Danger (tons of SAR certs, Sch1, RH1 - who is not the strongest in hunt drive of her progeny!!) has the temperament that lets him stretch out in a bus station or airplane aisleway allowing kids to use him as a pillow....not sure if the Hexe pups will be as open in temperament....

Lee


----------

