# 3 yr old male suddenly aggressive towards toddler-very worried!!



## harrygsd (Feb 9, 2014)

I've been a long time lurker. Harry, my GSD is a 3 year old neutered male that I've had since he was 8 weeks old. He loves all of my kids (I have 5) and he has never ever shown any aggressive behavior towards them. He has been socialized not only with my tribe of kids but the neighborhood kids as well since we had him at 8 weeks. He loves kids. 

We recently got a new puppy a month ago, a female. Harry and Lucy get along great. I practice NILIF with Lucy though I've been laxed with Harry letting him on our bed and couches. I still make him wait before he can go outside and that type of thing. Lucy is contained in the house until she can be trusted (potty and chewing). She has an ex pen that she hangs out in and a crate I feed and keep her in at night. Harry gets to roam the house because he's earned our trust that is until last night. Harry got into Lucy's ex pen when I wasn't watching which is hard to to do with 5 kids and took her bully stick. He took it into our living room and our 2 year old toddler walked in and must have grabbed it. He didn't growl but nipped our daughter hard on the hand. It didn't draw blood but there were teeth marks. I scolded him and put him in his 4x6 kennel we have in the basement for a time out for me and for him. I know our daughter should not have taken away his high value treat and I should have been watching them closely but again he has never done this before. I chalk it up to next time I will give him bully sticks in his kennel so this doesn't happen again and up my training a bit but it made me extremely upset and nervous that he did that in the first place. I've also closed Lucy's ex pen so he doesn't go in there and steal them. 

The other incident which really upset me was today he's on our bed which I allow for him to sit with me up there while I was talking to my husband. My toddler wants up so she can pet Harry. I get her up and she lays over Harry to pet him as she does a million times before this and he growls and barks at her. I immediately take her away and make him get off the bed. I'm very worried about this sudden behavior. 

I will call our vet to make sure there is nothing medical going on and get him checked out. I don't know if it is the puppy coming into the family and shook things up? He's in kennel for right now until I can watch my toddler with him. I can try tethering him to me but I also do that with our puppy. I've included Harry when I do training sessions with our puppy who's 12 weeks. He also gets plenty of excercise, chuck it ball, walks, and he still loves the flirt pole. We also play "find it" which he loves. How can I fix it this if it isn't medically related? We love Harry and see him as a family member but my kids come first. 

Thanks for any advice.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Don't take this the wrong way, it's not meant to be a criticism. But I would work on teaching the kids (and I know it's hard with a two year old), to not lay on top of Harry for one. 

It could very well be the 'new addition',,I know when I had two males who never ever ever once got into a tiff, DID, when I brought in a new puppy..Granted these weren't kids they were directing to, but dynamics change ..

The bully stick, well that's a really HIGH value treat, I see you have a good plan for the next time, (crate him if he has one)..

I'd kick his butt off the bed, (not literally you know what Imean , he may be getting a little to 'possessive' of things like the bed/couch..

Certainly no expert here, but yes I'd rule out medical, maybe he's sore from something, but I wouldn't say that was the case with the bullystick..

Hoping others will chime in, good luck to you and welcome to the forum


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm well I got chewed on for going overboard? On a GSD growling and cornering a child!!?? So this time I'll suggest you Google "rank drive in GSD's" and see what you think?


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm happy that everything ended not so...But it could. And the matter was - YOU! He took Lucy's stick not because he wants sticks, probably he even doesn't like them, but because she receives them from you, he took it out of jealosy, food and toys received from the leader of the pack ( that is you) represent your attention. Then came another baby to claim the same, so, the competition became tougher. He tried to reassure himself that he is still your right hand by taking his old place, but the toddler threatened him again. Your dog has bit your baby in order to protect himself, but the person whom he loves punished him.
First of all, you made a mistake. Your dog was upset, when he had to bite your baby, he, probably didn't mean to, he was waiting for Lucy to come and grab it. But, this confrontation repeated the very next day. I suggest you not to allow him inside for the next month or so, he wouldn't forget it so easily. But, please, don't forget, that your dog would feel absolutely miserable, if you don't grant him your attention. The accident you described is a typical indoor accident, and it shouldn't stop your children playing with your dog outside, take them for walks.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm going to bump this thread. I would respond to David Taggart's post but don't even know where to begin.
Maybe someone else wants to take a crack at it.


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## mtmarabianz (Jan 7, 2010)

Kids need to show/learn respect, no matter how long the dog has put up with it without intervention from the owner/adult/pack leader
they are not stuffed animals, kid toys ... & no child under 10 should be left unsupervised with a dog, meaning small children without the capicity of knowledge, than there should be an adult with the knowlege that keeps rules in place.

Dogs need to be treated like dogs, (off furniture) with a leader of the pack
his actions are showing that their is not a concistant leader, so he he is naturally, steping into the role!!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, I agree with Diane about getting him off the couch and bed. That aspect sounds like resource guarding. He just lost that privilege. It sounds like you are doing a lot of things right and that you are thinking ahead to put safe-guards in place. A vet check is always a good idea, when there is a sudden change in personality. I would also have him evaluated by a behaviorist.

It is odd to me that he has always been great with the children, until now. I know, blame the bully stick and don't let the child lay over Harry. That still strikes me wrong. I'm guessing that Harry was a dog who didn't growl over treats or being manhandled by a child before. And I seriously doubt he ever put his teeth on them. My old GSD always loved kids too. I always taught my kids to be respectful, as I'm sure you do too, but she was extremely tolerant - if she was accidentally stepped on, or tightly hugged or kissed, or a treat or toy was taken from her. She never growled at the kids. She absolutely never bit them. It is such a huge concern, when you have young kids.

Keep doing what you are doing to ensure that you keep your toddler safe. Harry goes, in the crate, when you can't watch him. Get a professional to help you. Kids ALWAYS come first.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not going to try to respond to David, but in response to Chip, this is a different set of dynamics, than the other thread. 

I too would kick the dog's butt off the bed. If you don't have any issues, there is no problem with the dog on the bed. If you do have issues, time to go back to your NILIF with this dog, and start from scratch. Nothing, he gets nothing he does not work for. 

Yes, definitely rule out medical, and I would cut out those bully stick. They are expensive and gross. I wouldn't want them around children, sorry, but these kind of treats often have issues with salmonella, etc. And these are the parts we humans don't eat for a reason. It also is a VERY high value treat, and your dog has given a strong indication that he cannot be trusted with a VERY high value treat with children around. 

I would also get a trainer/behaviorist, and start working with this dog. The new puppy takes a lot of training/socialization, but your adult boy has given you the heads up that he is still a work in progress.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> but in response to Chip, this is a different set of dynamics, than the other thread.


Well since I got singled out also....I'll say simple say ...I see the same “issue” dog threatening a pack member, so I would recommend the same tools,I error on the safe of keeping everyone safe, while “I” figure out what's going on??

I'm not big on ”issues” magically resolving themselves. Having said that,I'm out, I'm here to learn also and I don't want to derail this thread.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Find a good trainer and go from there. A case like this i wouldn't even bother posting about bc its important to see the dog. If you continue on your present course youre well on your way to conditioning further problems regarding what sounds like resource guarding behavior. 

In the meantime crate the dog when you aren't watching him especially when your young kids are around. The issue you are facing isn't uncommon and is usually a fairly easy fix so dont panic. Until you get that professional help take steps to prevent further incidents.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Well since I got singled out also....I'll say simple say ...I see the same “issue” dog threatening a pack member, so I would recommend the same tools,I error on the safe of keeping everyone safe, while “I” figure out what's going on??
> 
> I'm not big on ”issues” magically resolving themselves. Having said that,I'm out, I'm here to learn also and I don't want to derail this thread.


If you use the same method for two totally different reasons, then you are likely to get two totally different responses to whatever you did. 

For example, if you have a dog that is frightened of thunder storms, and its thundering and a toddler is pestering the dog, where it is hiding, the dog may growl. 

If another dog is full of itself, owners lax on their NILIF and thinks it is more important than the toddler, and decides it is not going to let the toddler through a doorway and growls. 

If you grab a hold of that second dog with a strong "No!" and 
take it by the collar and restrict its access to most areas of the house and give a three day shut down, and then strong NILIF bootcamp, maybe that dog never growls at the toddler again. Maybe. 

If you do that same thing to the first dog, than you will probably increase the dog's fear of storms and maybe add some fearfulness when the baby comes near him. He may not growl, but the fear, if it is not dealt with, then it is there, and the chances of the baby being bitten by the dog will increase. 

You really need to determine why the dog is doing what it is doing to deal with the problem effectively and not make it worse. 

Oh sure you can have a list:
Dog poops in house, put nose in poop.
Dog bites child, euthanize dog.
Dog growls at child, kick and beat dog until it is unconscious.
Dog chews table leg, crate dog until it is thirteen. 

Or you can determine the why, so that you can do the right thing for the situation. The seven year old dog pooped in the house because it was sick; treat the illness, clean the poop. The dog bit the child because the child put a pencil down its ear; supervise the little budding serial killer better. Dog grows at child for no apparent reason; find a competent trainer/behaviorist and pray that you can be open-minded enough to hear what you need to hear. Dog chews table leg because it is teething and bored, crate the dog when you can supervise, and redirect to one of the many appropriate chewable items when you can.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well since I got singled out also....I'll say simple say ...I see the same “issue” dog threatening a pack member, so I would recommend the same tools, I error on the safe of keeping everyone safe, while “I” figure out what's going on??
> 
> I'm not big on ”issues” magically resolving themselves. Having said that,I'm out, I'm here to learn also and I don't want to derail this thread.


Man I'm working real hard here to not derail this thread. That's my statement above, I said “nothing” about the same solution!  I did say the same “tools” for the reasons stated above.



selzer said:


> If you use the same method for two totally different reasons, then you are likely to get two totally different responses to whatever you did.


 I never said “methods” ...see above.



selzer said:


> For example, if you have a dog that is frightened of thunder storms, and its thundering and a toddler is pestering the dog, where it is hiding, the dog may growl.
> 
> If another dog is full of itself, owners lax on their NILIF and thinks it is more important than the toddler, and decides it is not going to let the toddler through a doorway and growls.
> 
> ...


That's all valuable insight , but again I never said the solution's were the same, I did “imply” that the root issue was the same, I'll give you that!  



selzer said:


> You really need to determine why the dog is doing what it is doing to deal with the problem effectively and not make it worse.


 Pretty sure I said that,see above. 



selzer said:


> Oh sure you can have a list:
> Dog poops in house, put nose in poop.
> Dog bites child, euthanize dog.
> Dog growls at child, kick and beat dog until it is unconscious.
> Dog chews table leg, crate dog until it is thirteen.


Now I'm an animal abuser???? I never said nor advocated any of that!



selzer said:


> Or you can determine the why, so that you can do the right thing for the situation. The seven year old dog pooped in the house because it was sick; treat the illness, clean the poop. The dog bit the child because the child put a pencil down its ear; supervise the little budding serial killer better. Dog grows at child for no apparent reason; find a competent trainer/behaviorist and pray that you can be open-minded enough to hear what you need to hear. Dog chews table leg because it is teething and bored, crate the dog when you can supervise, and redirect to one of the many appropriate chewable items when you can.


 Got no problem here,as I did say:



Chip18 said:


> ...I see the same “issue” dog threatening a pack member, so I would recommend the same tools, I error on the safe of keeping everyone safe, while “I” figure out what's going on??
> 
> I'm not big on ”issues” magically resolving themselves. Having said that,I'm out, I'm here to learn also and I don't want to derail this thread.


Sooo, I'm pretty comfortable standing by...what “I” did say.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

"I see the same "issue" dog threatening a pack member, so I would recommend the same tools..."

I took tools to mean whatever you would intend to do to manage the situation. Tools, can be correction collars, can be crates, can be methods of training/management etc. I think that I misunderstood your use of the world tools. 

As for my list of things, it was deliberately outrageous, not because I thought you would do those things, but to illustrate black and white thinking when it comes to matching an "issue" to a "tool."

I am sorry you felt the need to derail the thread. But suggesting I not respond after you said your piece about something that I still think was right on the other thread, in the name of not derailing another thread. The thing is we are talking apples and oranges here. If you have no idea why a dog might be acting aggressively, then you need to call a professional. If you have a serious state of disruption that may be causing the issue, you might deal with the disruption first and then see if you need to do more.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I took tools to mean whatever you would intend to do to manage the situation. Tools, can be correction collars, can be crates, can be methods of training/management etc. I think that I misunderstood your use of the world tools.


Point taken! PM sent.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if my 3 year old dog growled, barked, nipped my 3 year old
child he would be gone the minute he did it. i wouldn't trust
him around my child from that point on. my children's safety
come first. now that's what i would do and that's how much
i cherish my children.

good luck.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

IMO an overreaction but I can understand that.

Dogs and young children really don't mix well. They're kind of like sharp knives or scissors. You can keep them in the house with kids but just keep them away if you aren't able to directly supervise. Some dogs you might not ever have an issue and that's great, but it's best to not put the dog in that position.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, somethings you just can't take back and that's a fact. I don't have kids, so I really don't know. Taking my dogs around other people's kids is something that I have to weigh the pros and the cons of. They are not living in a home with kids, so they aren't accustomed to how unpredictable children can be, how they run, scream, wave their arms, wrestle, etc. One would expect a dog raised with children to be able to handle them. I don't think you can have a dog and a kid and keep them totally apart, and I don't think you can provide 100% constant supervision either. 

If you have a dog that is dangerous to your kid, some tough decisions may be in order. Because, some things you just can't take back. 

If there is a reason that the dog might be in an altered state of reason -- like the other thread with the young intact male, intact female left to figure out the whole process. Or if a dog is on some medication, for something, that is known to increase aggression -- fix the dogs or finish the meds, and things might go back to normal. And the dog is no longer a danger hopefully.

I am not suggesting we just pitch kids and dogs together, but some day you are going to be on the phone or straining the spaghetti noodles, and the dog will walk into the other room where the kid is playing.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't have kids either but if I'm cooking the dog is either crated, or in a down stay where I can see. He doesn't get wander the house unobserved time.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Baillif said:


> I don't have kids either but if I'm cooking the dog is either crated, or in a down stay where I can see. He doesn't get wander the house unobserved time.


Why?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Why should the dog wander around? When training a dog it is always learning even outside of a session. Dogs chew on carpet or furniture because they discover value in it. They chew on shoes because they discover value in it. If I'm watching I can quickly dissuade a behavior before it ever becomes a problem.

Other than that my dog is half malinois. If you've ever owned a malinois enough said. Half malinois is still a lot of malinois.

It's not that my dog doesn't get activity he gets a ton of it. He trains for mondio every day and since I work at a kennel training dogs guess who comes out as the distraction dog for the board and trains?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Once a dog is house trained -- and that means chewing as well as pottying, they shouldn't need to be crated while we are there, while we are cooking. As it is, most families work long hours, and by the time you crate the dog for the night, and crate the dog while at work, it seems terrible to crate the dog while you are cooking. 

People with kids are taking kids here and there, and working and the whole nine yards. When you are home, the dog ought to be able to roam the house, have a little freedom. I just don't think you should have to be constantly worried that your dog will rip your youngster's face off. The amount of time the average family would have the dog out of the crate, if it was only allowed out of the crate when there were no distractions, and everyone was able to pay 100% attention to the dog and kids, would probably be about 20 minutes per day, on a good day.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

And that's why I don't have kids. They really cut into the dog time.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Baillif said:


> *Find a good trainer and go from there. A case like this i wouldn't even bother posting about bc its important to see the dog. If you continue on your present course youre well on your way to conditioning further problems regarding what sounds like resource guarding behavior. *
> 
> In the meantime crate the dog when you aren't watching him especially when your young kids are around. The issue you are facing isn't uncommon and is usually a fairly easy fix so dont panic. Until you get that professional help take steps to prevent further incidents.


yes.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Why should the dog wander around? When training a dog it is always learning even outside of a session. Dogs chew on carpet or furniture because they discover value in it. They chew on shoes because they discover value in it. If I'm watching I can quickly dissuade a behavior before it ever becomes a problem.
> 
> Other than that my dog is half malinois. If you've ever owned a malinois enough said. Half malinois is still a lot of malinois.
> 
> It's not that my dog doesn't get activity he gets a ton of it. He trains for mondio every day and since I work at a kennel training dogs guess who comes out as the distraction dog for the board and trains?


Malinois are that different from GSD'S?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I don't have kids and I certainly,would not trust my guy around kids, He's sees them on walks so he knows what they are, no issue but he's never lived with any! SO he'd never be trusted with kids, without me being right there! 

My guys have always been free roaming in the house. I work and train them and other than the usual potty training I have never had issues with, I never understood how the couch eating, counter surfing stuff happens?

To the OP. keep everybody safe while you figure this out. If it's beyond you then do as has been suggested and get professional help with the "issue".not Petco (I always say that). No shame in calling for back up if the need is there! Kids and dog "issues" even though I'm kid less, would be a top priority call for me!


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Malinois are that different from GSD'S?


I've met plenty of mal's that settle much quicker than my GSD :shrug:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

They're not all the same and how they're trained as well as their general energy level and breeding play a huge factor. In general malinois and german shepherds are very very different but I've seen some gsds that were so high energy or hyper and under exercised and under stimulated that when they show up at the kennel they drive our dog evaluating malinois we have here crazy because they never want to stop playing. 

Bottom line a high energy dog is a high energy dog. Working line mals are usually that. Plenty of gsd out there just as crazy.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, I hope you are still around. If so, I hope you are taking the advice to heart - especially the "find a behaviorist". You are in desperate need of expert advice. I know you love your dog. In a perfect world, this gets fixed and never happens again. But your dog needs a thorough physical and behavioral evaluation to get to the root of the problem.

I have always had kids and dogs. My dogs were bomb proof. I trusted them completely. It was not necessary for me to regulate every move of the dogs and kids. My dogs never let me down. I did once bring in a dog that a family member wanted to rehome (non-GSD). She lasted less than 24 hours in my home. She growled at my 2 year old and bit my 6 year old. And no, my kids had not done anything to deserve those reactions. The dog was rehomed to an adult home, where she bit the new owner several times, but he loved her anyway. Happy ending for the dog, but not in my house. My kids deserved better.


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