# Obedience training not very important?



## Koda'sMom (Feb 13, 2013)

I had a customer come in today that needed help choosing a dog food etc. Well he told me all about his 18 month old shepherd and how he was going to send him to a guy who would train and title him at 2 years old for $2,000. 
Anyways, when I asked what training he already had he said none. That the trainer told him that obedience wasn't a very big/important part of schuntzund training. 

Is he right?

I always thought that while you may not start official training and trials until past a certain age, that you still had to have a solid base in obedience etc.

I don't do any protection sports but that had me scratching my head. Is the trainer scamming? 

BTW, I encouraged him to check out this forum


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:rofl: Obedience is everything in Schutzhund. An entire phase is obedience. Tracking is obedience. Protection work is obedience and control.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> :rofl: Obedience is everything in Schutzhund. An entire phase is obedience. Tracking is obedience. Protection work is obedience and control.


:spittingcoffee: :rofl:

What Michelle said


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Wow, I don't train in the sport and even I know that's total garbage  Poor guy is so getting snowballed and what a wake up call he will be getting


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Jesus, who would want to live with a GSD until it was a year and a half without doing any obedience training. Yikes!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think he probably misunderstood what the trainer was actually saying. There is a school of thought that leaves the dog to grow up before you start much formal ob, but I enjoy the foundation stuff you can do with a puppy. Its a lot of fun. Either way, like Jax said, its all ob at some point.


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## Koda'sMom (Feb 13, 2013)

So I'm not the crazy one! I told him that everyone I knew that trained for schuntzhund, started training certain things from day one. He told me that the trainer "trained police dogs in OK". I had to swallow my laugh and hide my smile when I heard that after the "obedience isn't important".


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## DogWalker (Jun 16, 2015)

Oh my gosh ... you can't even get to the protection stage without your BH ... and that's all obedience!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> I think he probably misunderstood what the trainer was actually saying. There is a school of thought that leaves the dog to grow up before you start much formal ob, but I enjoy the foundation stuff you can do with a puppy. Its a lot of fun. Either way, like Jax said, its all ob at some point.



This was my thought as well.


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## Koda'sMom (Feb 13, 2013)

I'm just glad I cut him off before he could get to the "you have a female I have a male lets breed" part of the conversation.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

angelas said:


> Jesus, who would want to live with a GSD until it was a year and a half without doing any obedience training. Yikes!


This isn't a rare thought. I had a man approach me when I was working with Titan in Petsmart, earlier this year, tell me that he loved how well he was trained.. then spun off on how he knows it's best to start training at 2 years because they don't learn anything or retain anything prior to that age. And he was serious. Dead serious. :crazy:


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I've heard this as well, and just about cracked up laughing. I had someone compliment me on how well behaved Kyleigh was. I thanked them and they asked how old she was? 8 months LOL 

Don't get me wrong, I didn't bring her to the store until she was good and tired, but she still knew about 10 commands by that age!

An untrained GSD until 2 years? OMG I would have given her away!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

A lot of very good trainers don't do much other than exposure work with their dogs until 18-24 months. There is nothing wrong with this method.


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## Koda'sMom (Feb 13, 2013)

It wasn't just the waiting until he was two to start training. It was the trainer telling him that obedience training wasn't a big part of schuntzhund training.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Care to elaborate Jeremy? Because what I am thinking from that statement is literally no training.. nothing, not foundations, not redirection.. nothing.. a dog running the house, no boundaries, no sits, stays, downs, nothing. I can't imagine that's what you mean, but regardless you have me intrigued on the line of thinking (whether I would do it or not).


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

wyoung2153 said:


> Care to elaborate Jeremy? Because what I am thinking from that statement is literally no training.. nothing, not foundations, not redirection.. nothing.. a dog running the house, no boundaries, no sits, stays, downs, nothing. I can't imagine that's what you mean, but regardless you have me intrigued on the line of thinking (whether I would do it or not).




Not all working/sport dogs are house pets as well. Yes a lot of us on this forum live in the house with our puppies, but some are not raised that way. So they take the dog out, expose them to different things and environments but other than that don't do anything. What's a lot of training? Teaching the dog what it can't do. Some like to teach the dog what it can do before they put limitations on that. Too much obedience too soon or at all for that matter can inhibit the dog for other things. The theories of starting puppies in tracking, OB and protection at eight weeks, is relatively new.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> Not all working/sport dogs are house pets as well. Yes a lot of us on this forum live in the house with our puppies, but some are not raised that way. So they take the dog out, expose them to different things and environments but other than that don't do anything. What's a lot of training? Teaching the dog what it can't do. Some like to teach the dog what it can do before they put limitations on that. Too much obedience too soon or at all for that matter can inhibit the dog for other things. The theories of starting puppies in tracking, OB and protection at eight weeks, is relatively new.


Intriguing concept. I think that for working/sport that would make sense (I have no experience, really to disagree, to be honest) I do think, however, that the average Joe that makes these comments, are not doing sport or work.. they read a theory or method somewhere meant for specific types of work or training and said.. "well I will do that!" Still interesting to think about. May have to research just for fun


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Regardless of when a dog is started in training, this is the sentence that sticks out for me.



Koda'sMom said:


> That the trainer told him that obedience wasn't a very big/important part of schuntzund training.


Obedience is very important. 

A foundation at a young age is not. Many high level trainers/competitors buy green dogs who have had their hips done and they an see the drives as an adult. No sense in putting 2 years into a dog for competition and having it all for nothing.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I understand that. My guess is that the guy mis understood what the trainer was saying. Many do. I had a client recently ask me when to start obedience, I told him to wait and not do anything. We are just bringing certain things out in his dog. He then saw me work my dog and asked how many hours a day I work her in OB. I said it's not even hours per week. He was very confused on how you could get that without spending 3 hours a day working ob. It's not needed and all too often people burn their dogs/puppies out.


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## Koda'sMom (Feb 13, 2013)

@Jax- Exactly. That's the part that had me wondering at the legitamacy of the "trainer".


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jeremy - I wasn't responding to you. I know you understand that.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> I understand that. My guess is that the guy mis understood what the trainer was saying. Many do. I had a client recently ask me when to start obedience, I told him to wait and not do anything. We are just bringing certain things out in his dog. He then saw me work my dog and asked how many hours a day I work her in OB. I said it's not even hours per week. He was very confused on how you could get that without spending 3 hours a day working ob. It's not needed and all too often people burn their dogs/puppies out.


Aha.. I see. I suppose that goes with just Basic OB outside of sport. When I have told people training is something you do for the rest of the dogs life, I mean, that you should work with your dog regularly and not completely neglect that part of his life.. not that 3 hours a day needs to be spent with OB. I can see what you are saying.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't start obedience training until 12 to 14 months old. I start " manners" training from the beginning of my ownership. I know people in Sch that start obedience training at 6 weeks and I know people that start obedience training after one year....but manners should always be ongoing....but I don't consider manners training as obedience training.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I don't start obedience training until 12 to 14 months old. I start " manners" training from the beginning of my ownership. I know people in Sch that start obedience training at 6 weeks and I know people that start obedience training after one year....but manners should always be ongoing....but I don't consider manners training as obedience training.


Can you explain what you mean then? To me manners is considered still obedience.. but I guess I'm not in a sport so maybe that's where the differences lie. I know that doing competition obedience and obedience in a sport like ScH/IPO probably mean ver different things.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Manners are things like don't jump on people, wait for your food, go lay down, loose leash walking.

Obedience training for formal commands such as a focused heal, long downs, send outs, etc would not be started until older.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Manners are things like don't jump on people, wait for your food, go lay down, loose leash walking.
> 
> Obedience training for formal commands such as a focused heal, long downs, send outs, etc would not be started until older.


Gotcha. I guess I just grouped them all into obedience.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have a 7 month old pup that I've done no 'formal training' with....and yes he is going to be my next IPO dog. I broke my foot when he was 4 months old, which put any focus/heeling work on hold. We track, we do the positions, but he is not doing focused heeling at this time. Manners are minimal, he lives in the house and is fairly good about being out with minimal corrections. 
I focus on tug, grips and him possessing right now at almost 8 months, yet we aren't doing bitework seriously.
Tracking is excellent, puppy has a busy nose and is intense, yet calm on his tracks. I'll take that 
Though, when we do get going, yes, obedience is key in all three phases, but a pup needs to be a pup for some time, I would never take that time away for 'sport'.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

So I guess for my sake and understanding. It's meant to be normal obedience in the home (or manners) but tho concept is not FORMAL training until later. I still consider manners and things like loose leash walking/heeling, and things like that training so I guess that's where I get confused by that statement. I could understand and complete get with no formal training until later. In fact Titan and I never did formal OB until he was 18 months, because we had to for our SAR team. l trained him at home, manners, sits, stays, loose leash walking, outs, that kind of thing.. but nothing formal. Just what I wanted him to know at the house.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I went to a seminar of some SchH trainers/judge who said that their dogs are basically doing SchH1 protection routines before they start formal obedience. Yes, they might wait to do BHs and it's not a race to get a BH right at 15 months (but you can do BH and then start titling right away so needing to do a ton of obedience to get a BH so you can title is not really a valid argument in favor of a lot of obedience, you can get a BH and then do a SchH1 the next day at the same event). They very intentionally do NOT spend a lot of time on obedience until the dog is mature and already doing protection. They had some very interesting methods (like tether a dog to a stake and stand just outside the dog's range, then amp up with a toy and walk in a circle so the dog is basically "heeling" on the end of the leash), most of which I personally found little use/desire for, but it works for their program and the type of dogs they seem to be acquiring and training. They get points and SchH titles and have people that like to train with them and pay them for seminars. I would bet my house they are kennel dogs and I'm not debating kennel vs house dogs, only that a dog raised and kept in a house is automatically going to have to abide by certain rules and commands that a kennel dog doesn't need to have. A kennel dog and truly be a green dog at 18+ months when it comes to SchH obedience.


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