# 16 Mnth Old GS showing signs of aggression



## CABOSAN (Mar 20, 2015)

*I am in need of some advice. We have had Cabo for over a year now. We got her when she was 8 weeks old. She has completed obedience training and did well with it. For the last month (she is now 16 months) – about once a week, she will be on our bed at night and if we touch her or pet her, she puts her ears back and growls at us. The first time she did that, she had a raw hide on the bed next to her even though she wasn’t chewing it at the time. I just thought she was being protective of it… I took it away from her and told my husband no more treats of any kind in bed.. Last night she is laying between my husband and myself up by our heads and my husband went to pet her and her ears went back and she let out a small growl. I immediately rolled over and asked her if she had to go potty, just to get her out of that “state” and it worked. She has only shown this type of behavior with us in our bed. I socialize her, have her around friends and other dogs (she is a bit shy and submissive with other dogs). She does not like men and we are working on that with her as well. I just don’t understand why she is changing her temperament in our own bed. The other problem is that my husband just dismisses it while I will not tolerate it. It’s almost like he doesn’t want to face the fact that she does this to him. They are extremely close. I am concerned that although the person I purchased her from was registered with AKC, I have a bad feeling that much inbreeding is done at this place. Just looking for some feedback and advise. Thanks in advance.*


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## CrystalV (Dec 28, 2015)

Sounds like she is asserting herself as top dog....I would not let her sleep in the bed....get her a bed next to you.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

16 Months old . . . maturing into an adult dog. She is now asserting herself and establishing rank and testing her level of control over different situations. This is NOT acceptable, as you say. 

If this were my dog, Cabo would loose all bed and furniture priviledges. Strict NILIF. Get her a crate or bed on the floor, and that is were she sleeps. You did well the first time around to distract her with something non-threatening and routine to get her to snap out of her growling mindset. 

The problem now is getting your husband on board. I can tell you from being on this board for many years, that a HUGE number of "My dog bit me!!!" type posts we get here all center around a dog being on a bed, and the owners reaching to move the dog or reaching over to pet the dog. I'm not against having a dog on a bed - but only when there is no question in the dog's mind about its place in the pack, no questions about respecting the actions of the humans in the house, and no question in their mind that being on the bed is a priviledge that can be lost. 

Maybe you can do a search on the forum about dogs on the bed that bit, and print them out for your husband to read so he understands that this is not something to be dismissed. Or get some more outside documentation about how owners loose their pack leader status in the house - which can happen in a very subtle way and over a long time so that we don't realize that the dog is now in charge, and things need to change to get our leadership position back. 

Sometimes we can be too close to our dogs, that we don't see clearly. Try and help him take a step back.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

With my most recent GSD, I didn't let her up on the bed until she was a year old. Not until she could settle down and behave herself and know that being up there was not "me in her spot", but a privilege for her to be in my spot with me.

I agree she needs to stay down for a while, though it will be harder now that the pattern is long established. Find a spot on the floor for her - put down a pad or blanket or whatever makes you feel like not such a bad guy for giving her the boot. No treats or toys in or around the bed. You might end up so comfortable and not missing the straight arm dog paw pushing into your back in the middle of the night lol!

Train her that's her spot on the floor. Praise her for staying there. She may be 10 kinds of upset with you - persist.... she may show you by going into another room and destroying some of your stuff. Block her in at night (door partition). She'll settle into her new sleeping spot in a few days and you can pull the partition (or you may not need it at all).


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> *Maybe you can do a search on the forum about dogs on the bed that bit,* and print them out for your husband to read so he understands that this is not something to be dismissed. Or get some more outside documentation about how owners loose their pack leader status in the house - which can happen in a very subtle way and over a long time so that we don't realize that the dog is now in charge, and things need to change to get our leadership position back.
> 
> Sometimes we can be too close to our dogs, that we don't see clearly. Try and help him take a step back.


 On it.

Leerburg | Dealing with the Dominant Dog


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

A dog with any kind of "aggression issues" should not be on "any" furniture and certainly not allowed in the bed.

Right now to the dog, it's unclear who the "leader" is and dogs solve their problems with "aggression!"

You need to start checking out "Cragislist" right now for a "Crate" and start to "Crate Train" this dog. 

I got more but you need to change the "mindsets" of all involved this dog or your pretty much heading here:

Plan B - Kill the Dog!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> On it.
> 
> Leerburg | Dealing with the Dominant Dog


Just a warning that this article contains some very disturbing pictures of bite wounds. Though so far what I read was spot on (haven't read the whole article though).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't think there is a need to be as melodramatic as Chip makes it out with the graphic bite pictures and the euthanasia article - but a 16 month old growling in bed at the humans is a start of something that can escalate. Important to take action now and re-cofirm the pack order.


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## CABOSAN (Mar 20, 2015)

Thank you so much for your advice. I agree 100% that she should not be allowed back on the bed for now. It is so frustrating because she only does this in bed and maybe every few weeks. I thought it was her chew toys that she was bringing to bed, so I stopped that. I appreciate the feedback more than you know. I know that owning a GS is a lot of work and you have to stay at it for good results... I guess my concern would be is this something that we can fix? No matter the answer she is mine and I will not give her up. Thankfully I have no children. I have two cats that she gets along well with.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

CABOSAN said:


> Thank you so much for your advice. I agree 100% that she should not be allowed back on the bed for now. It is so frustrating because she only does this in bed and maybe every few weeks. I thought it was her chew toys that she was bringing to bed, so I stopped that. I appreciate the feedback more than you know. I know that owning a GS is a lot of work and you have to stay at it for good results... I guess my concern would be is this something that we can fix? No matter the answer she is mine and I will not give her up. Thankfully I have no children. I have two cats that she gets along well with.


LOL the cats are not an issue?? That's pretty good!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> I don't think there is a need to be as melodramatic as Chip makes it out with the graphic bite pictures and the euthanasia article - but a 16 month old growling in bed at the humans is a start of something that can escalate. Important to take action now and re-cofirm the pack order.


Yes, I do have a flair for the dramatic!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Cabosan, I 100% believe that this is something that can be 100% fixed, IF you take action now. This is spoiled dog with no boundries who needs to learn respect. The article that Chip posted is pretty good, and as it says, a spoiled teenager dog bite can be just as serious as an aggressive dog bite. 

If you know or can find a good behaviourist that can come into your home and observe the dynamics and interactions between you guys and your dogs, they can help you see all the myriad little ways that leadership has eroded away, and your dog is quietly taking control. As I mentioned, this is often a subtle, slow process, so we are not even aware of it, but next thing you know, your dog is growling at you for something small.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

My German Shepherd is good as gold. Not a growly bone in her body. My hound mix is a resource guarder - food, space, bed, everything. I worked very hard to desensitize him. He is allowed on the bed, as long as he gets off, when I tell him. He growled at me once. His butt was on the floor so fast, it made his head spin. Privilege lost. He doesn't do that any more. 

Definitely get your dog off the bed. Keep a long line on him, so you can pull him off, if need be.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Definitely get your dog off the bed. Keep a long line on him, so you can pull him off, if need be.


Yes!!! You wouldn't believe how many posts we get with "I've never had issues to grab his collar and pull him off the bed when he didn't listen, but this time when I reached for his collar, he bit me!"

My take on this is: If your dog won't get off the bed (or chair, or sofa, or whatever), the FIRST time you ask him to, the dog has lost all furniture priviledges, and back to NILIF boot camp! In other words, you(general you) should never be in a position that you need to physically remove the dog from furniture. If that is the case, you have to stop and ask yourself how that situation even came to be, because it is a lack of pack structure clarity that the humans have created. 

Some dogs learn their place, and the furniture priviledge can be re-instated. Others need to have the clear separation between pack leader priviledges and their place in the pack maintained for life. It just depends on the dog.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I deleted a bunch of back-and-forth off-topic chit-chat that was taking the thread in a different direction that was not helpful. 

Let's stay on topic please.


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## mjackson0902 (Sep 14, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Yes, I do have a flair for the dramatic!


And resources  When you comment I know I have at least two articles to read


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## CABOSAN (Mar 20, 2015)

No problems at all with the cats but I monitor her and the cats also have a room where she can't get to but they can. Cabo has the run of the house while we are not home and does considerably well. I appreciate all the advise I have received and I do believe that we need to be more assertive with her. I know by spoiling her and allowing her to get away with things is not helping at all. This is a great forum.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> I deleted a bunch of back-and-forth off-topic chit-chat that was taking the thread in a different direction that was not helpful.
> 
> Let's stay on topic please.


Did I post in the wrong thread ..."yet again???


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

My first dog allowed me to sleep in his bed .....I did most everything wrong with my first dog in this respect....I simply couldn't imagine the notion that my dog had laid claim to what I thought was my bed. I clearly remember when he growled at me once as I tried to move him a bit so I could get into bed....it blew me away because I thought it was so far removed from the camaraderie of allowing the dog to sleep in my bed if he chose. I also recall, the dog was on the floor in about 1/10 of a second after he displayed such brazen behavior and the problem was cured. I guess ownership of the bed changed hands in a dramatic fashion without me even knowing it. I now understand that I was completely responsible for the dog's reaction ( thinking the bed was his ) due to my lacking. I'm sure there are many ways to cure this problem and obviously you should because it will not change on its own and most likely get worse.

My bottom line to this type of undesirable behavior may sound greedy or harsh but it has worked wonderfully with my next 3 dogs. Everything is mine....everything. The upside for my dogs is....I share.


SuperG


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## CABOSAN (Mar 20, 2015)

Thanks for your replies. I have decided that she is used to sleeping on our bed and I am ok with that, the next time she tries to show her dominance, that she will spend the night on the floor in her won bed which she has had in our room for many many months. Occasionally she starts out in her won bed and then radiates to ours but most nights she is on our bed between our heads. I know that we have a lot of work to do with her still and she is testing her boundaries.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CABOSAN said:


> Thanks for your replies. I have decided that she is used to sleeping on our bed and I am ok with that, the next time she tries to show her dominance, that she will spend the night on the floor in her won bed which she has had in our room for many many months. Occasionally she starts out in her won bed and then radiates to ours but most nights she is on our bed between our heads. I know that we have a lot of work to do with her still and she is testing her boundaries.


It might be easier if you think in terms of confusion rather than dominance Cabosan. Being consistent can end confusion for her and help these things go away. Still letting her try and figure out what she wants as far as being on her bed or yours can keep her testing those boundries.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

*"She has only shown this type of behavior with us in our bed."*
I'd leave this dog off the bed full stop. Why set her up to fail? Lots of dogs dislike being disturbed when they're sleeping or tired. Let her sleep in her own bed and stay off yours, problem solved.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

What Steve and Arlene said.

I'm the same way, btw.

I don't allow them on the bed or furniture.

It's a personal choice really, but it has been easier overall I think, avoids potential conflict.

I'm a light sleeper too.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

" * about once a week, she will be on our bed at night and if we touch her or pet her, she puts her ears back and growls at us.".....next time you will make her sleep on the floor???? Hmmmmmm...well, you can count on a "next" time and when you decide to move her off your bed, you best be prepared for a potential encounter or perhaps bait her off the bed ( nothing will be learned by the dog most likely baiting her ) and then keep her off going forward. I have this thing about a dog of mine growling at me trying to call the shots.....only happened the one time as I earlier described and it is completely unacceptable...end of story.

SuperG


*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I love my dogs.

If you don't have an issue like this, you are free to love your dogs in whatever way you want.

If you do have an issue like this, you have to change how you love your dog. Otherwise, you don't love your dog at all. 

Giving this dog another opportunity to do again what she did, or to ramp up her behavior, is not loving your dog. Sorry. 

With a dog that is showing a warning of impending aggression you want to make the changes you NEED to make (if you love your dog) when she is NOT aggressing. Dragging a growling dog off of the bed might get you bitten. Punishing a growl can get you a dog that doesn't growl, but snaps or bites instead. 

Instead, you need to become the leader in the situation. Now, when she is not on the bed. The bed is an issue for her, so put her in her crate next to your bed, and shut the door, then get into bed. 

At the same time, for the next several months, get out there and ramp up her obedience, reinforce good behavior, and give her feedback she needs when she does not do a thing right. Improve your consistency. Become a leader in ways that aren't confrontational, and the dog will thrive. 

Discipline is the most misunderstood concept with respect to love. The Bible tells us, he who does not chasten his son, does not love him. It is true. To love the dog, but to let it get away with murder is a lie. When we love the dog, we discipline ourselves to improve the relationship with our dog. We give up something we really love, sacrifice having the dog on the bed, because that isn't good for the dog -- THAT is loving our dog. We discipline the dog, to make life for the dog comfortable -- THAT is love. Dogs who understand the boundaries, the rules, the expectations, they are comfortable. Dogs that are comfortable, have few issues.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

CABOSAN said:


> *I am in need of some advice. We have had Cabo for over a year now. We got her when she was 8 weeks old. She has completed obedience training and did well with it. For the last month (she is now 16 months) – about once a week, she will be on our bed at night and if we touch her or pet her, she puts her ears back and growls at us. The first time she did that, she had a raw hide on the bed next to her even though she wasn’t chewing it at the time. I just thought she was being protective of it… I took it away from her and told my husband no more treats of any kind in bed.. Last night she is laying between my husband and myself up by our heads and my husband went to pet her and her ears went back and she let out a small growl. I immediately rolled over and asked her if she had to go potty, just to get her out of that “state” and it worked. She has only shown this type of behavior with us in our bed. I socialize her, have her around friends and other dogs (she is a bit shy and submissive with other dogs). She does not like men and we are working on that with her as well. I just don’t understand why she is changing her temperament in our own bed. The other problem is that my husband just dismisses it while I will not tolerate it. It’s almost like he doesn’t want to face the fact that she does this to him. They are extremely close. I am concerned that although the person I purchased her from was registered with AKC, I have a bad feeling that much inbreeding is done at this place. Just looking for some feedback and advise. Thanks in advance.*


Are you kidding me? You think inbreeding is the problem? I'm sorry if I come across as overly sarcastic and rude, but I highly doubt that inbreeding is the problem (or if it is, it isn't the sole cause of this problem).

The problem is you're letting your dog get away with murder (metaphorically-speaking).
1) Don't allow dogs to sleep on your bed, or on any platform that puts them at your resting height or higher. Sleeping position plays a huge role in pack dominance for wolves and other feral canines. Dogs, especially GSD's, that sleep on the same level as their owners will interpret that to mean they are on equal or higher footing than you in your family's "pack" structure....that practice needs to stop ASAP!
2) If your dog grows or shows aggression when you try to take away a treat or for any reason, CORRECT THE DOG! Verbal corrections first, posturing your body (stand tall and confidently). If your dog doesn't respond to that, I wouldn't try to instigate any physical confrontation obviously, but I would look at other corrective measures for future incidents (e-collars, pinch collars, ect.). Allowing your dog to growl at you without any sort of repercussion essentially tells the dog that it is okay to do that in the future.
3) Look into additional socialization and obedience training, and look to do this on a regular basis. Your dog needs not only to understand your commands, but needs to respect you enough to follow them 24/7. Any kind of training/obedience work that reinforces his obedience and respect is good and healthy. Obviously you should try to have rewards-based incentives for him to follow your commands (treats, praise, toys, ect.), but corrections have their place depending on situation.


I realize I'm being blunt, but this whole thread shocks me. A dog who jumps on his owner's bed and then growls at his owner has some serious socialization and training issues that need to be addressed. I don't care how "purebred" or "edgy" and/or "dominant" the dog is; that's not proper behavior from any GSD. I realize that I have only a snapshot of your relationship with this dog, but from my perspective, it certainly does seem that your actions, or inactions, have enabled this bad behavior.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

CABOSAN said:


> Thanks for your replies. I have decided that she is used to sleeping on our bed and I am ok with that, the next time she tries to show her dominance, that she will spend the night on the floor in her won bed which she has had in our room for many many months. Occasionally she starts out in her won bed and then radiates to ours but most nights she is on our bed between our heads. I know that we have a lot of work to do with her still and she is testing her boundaries.


Again, I'm being blunt but this is not a good plan.

Your dog is in fact testing your boundaries, and every time you acquiesce to his demands/preferences, he thinks he is winning. He gets up on your bed and then growls at you when you want him to move off or do something, and you backoff; that's allowing him to get his way and he'll continue to think that way going forward. 

I'm not saying that all **** is going to break loose and that your dog is suddenly going to try to attack you. I'm saying there is the possibility that your dog will seek to push those boundaries and increase his perceived dominance in the house...this could lead to potential conflicts and aggressive outbursts down the road.

I know there are a lot of different dog owners, with different personalities. If a terrier owner wants to let his dog "own" the house and sleep on furniture, I won't agree with it, but the consequences of a violent or aggressive outburst from such a dog are much less severe than what you may encounter with a GSD or similar breeds. 

You're a GSD owner, and like it or not, your dog can't be treated like a "normal" dog. You've got to establish some boundaries. And the dog has to respect you enough that he won't cross those boundaries. If you don't establish yourself as the house/pack leader, then the GSD might think that is his position to take. 

I love dogs. I love my GSD to death, and I give up a lot of my time and money to make sure he has a good life. But one thing I won't do is let him think he is in charge. I am the owner, and I am in charge, and my dog knows that. If you're not prepared to adopt that kind of attitude with your dog, I'd say you've chosen the wrong breed as a pet.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Why do people allow German Shepherds to sleep in their beds? The first thing our trainer told us when we took in an aggressive rescue was to let him sleep in our room, on a dog bed, on the FLOOR. They are dogs, not children. In the last three months, I've lost count of all the new threads here on young dogs that are aggressive. With a few exceptions, most are behaviors owners have allowed or encouraged. We took in a middle aged senior and trained the aggression out of him. He never once turned on any family member. I don't understand why it isn't common knowledge that owners must be dog owners, not parents. I blame the Positive ONLY BS we see all over the Internet and on TV. The only training method anyone should use is Common Sense. That said, I'm using positive training with my current dogs, but if that ever stops working, I would use whatever I need to to get the behaviors we need from our dogs.

This isn't a criticism of the OP. It's sheer frustration that anyone gets a German Shepherd without knowing the basics about common temperament. Or any breed. Know your dog. Know your breed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not saying this to disagree with you Luvshepherds, I'm in the they're dogs camp too, but I think sometimes people don't think about these kind of things not just from what they read or watched, but because of experience with previous dogs or advice from a relative with one.

Not all this structure matters with some dogs. We've owned 2 male Rotts, one had to be on the floor. The other, it just didn't matter. Our 2 Shepherds now, one is just naturally respectful of the family. He'll always get out of the way without any conflict at all. Its just in his temperament. He can sleep anywhere and there'd never be an issue. People get the idea that is the common temperament. I think both are normal, so I don't really fault people for not realizing which they have.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

We've owned shepherds who could sleep on the bed and would never get aggressive, but at 3 months, we don't know. I'm not upset with anyone just sad that there is so little understanding of behavior. The dog didn't suddenly show aggression, there are always little signs that indicate a lack of respect that weren't recognized.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I can't see allowing the dog on the bed as an exceptional cause of problems of this nature. But, I can see how existing problems (in general) can really show themselves most plainly when this is allowed......

I was watching some puppy temperament testing videos yesterday and was amazed how much they can tell about what the puppy will most likely behave like as an adult. I may be way off base on this but;

With that in mind, I could see where some dogs will be fine and some should never be allowed that privilege because there is an underlying predisposition that will cause issues in some.... 

If that is true - it's possible this dog should lose bed privileges on a permanent basis as it is one of the "thinner" areas where the underlying temperament of the dog is likely to cause continued problems. I'm sure this could probably be "trained" to subdue the dog's tenancy, but shoot - your own bed should not have to be a place where strict training has to be enforced at all times because there is a problem eek:

So, if the OP is looking around and sees that others let their dogs do this or that - and so they should be able to also...... may be doing their dog a disservice by allowing some things that in fact will erode the relationship and never be ok with _that particular_ dog.......


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stone, I'm very worried the aggression would show up in other circumstances if it's not curtailed now. It's not the bed, that is just an expression of the problem.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Stone, I'm very worried the aggression would show up in other circumstances if it's not curtailed now. It's not the bed, that is just an expression of the problem.


It can erode the relationship in all ways. Hopefully the OP is more aware of the consequences then they were before they posted the problem. The rest is up to them.....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> Why do people allow German Shepherds to sleep in their beds? The first thing our trainer told us when we took in an aggressive rescue was to let him sleep in our room, on a dog bed, on the FLOOR. They are dogs, not children. In the last three months, I've lost count of all the new threads here on young dogs that are aggressive. With a few exceptions, most are behaviors owners have allowed or encouraged. We took in a middle aged senior and trained the aggression out of him. He never once turned on any family member. I don't understand why it isn't common knowledge that owners must be dog owners, not parents. I blame the Positive ONLY BS we see all over the Internet and on TV. The only training method anyone should use is Common Sense. That said, I'm using positive training with my current dogs, but if that ever stops working, I would use whatever I need to to get the behaviors we need from our dogs.
> 
> This isn't a criticism of the OP. It's sheer frustration that anyone gets a German Shepherd without knowing the basics about common temperament. Or any breed. Know your dog. Know your breed.


 While I believe this owner should stop and not allow her dog on the bed from this time forward, or at least until things are much different, but probably forever, I do understand why people allow dogs to sleep in the bed.

I think many people who live alone like the bed-warmer. They love the dog, and the dog likes to lay on the bed. With most dogs it really isn't a problem, and with GSDs, generally they may start out in the bed, but we humans are too darned hot, and they get out and sleep where it is cooler anyway. 

I would imagine the dog would be even quicker to vacate if there are two humans in the bed. 

But especially if you are alone in the house, having the dog right there, I think it is kind of a security thing. Some of us feel safer when we can feel the dog sleeping quietly next to us. 

Now sleeping in the bed with a crazy, hyper bitch with a cone on her head is pretty much the definition of insanity. It's like sleeping with two six year old kids and a toboggan. Kind of like the folksy song about Grandma's Featherbed.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

How can novice GSD owners become responsible, successful GSD owners without going through the process of acquiring a GSD and working through the process? Novice owners who bother to read the forum and ask questions are usually the owners who are trying to do well by their dog(s). We are learning the basics and learning about our own dogs' personality quirks. They are all a little different and one specific solution can not be applied to every situation.
I don't understand the origin of the few 'edgy, impatient, experienced' owners here who are so quick to insult and criticize those who are trying to learn. 
Guess it's just a commentary on social dynamics.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> How can novice GSD owners become responsible, successful GSD owners without going through the process of acquiring a GSD and working through the process? Novice owners who bother to read the forum and ask questions are usually the owners who are trying to do well by their dog(s). We are learning the basics and learning about our own dogs' personality quirks. They are all a little different and one specific solution can not be applied to every situation.
> I don't understand the origin of the few 'edgy, impatient, experienced' owners here who are so quick to insult and criticize those who are trying to learn.
> Guess it's just a commentary on social dynamics.


Well ... "someone" could try and "ask" her* if the dog is still sleeping in the bed?? Have changes been made?? And how are things progressing?*? Someone could ... but no one does. :crazy:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think people don't know what _kind_ of shepherd they have at three months, because at three months there is no problem. And at 5-6 months, no problem. And then one day there is a problem because the puppy is growing into an adult and some dogs need to determine where their place is. Some already know, bed or no bed. Some don't. They want to see what happens if they start asserting themselves in whatever instances matter most to them. Resting is one of them. Eating is one of them. So as the dog grows into an adult, they suddenly decide they don't want to be touched here, or they want to be left alone when they are sleeping, or they don't want to be bothered when they are eating. They growl. And suddenly people realize that their dog is no longer a puppy, some things may no longer be taken for granted.

Experienced owners provide a presence that most dogs just accept as pups and never challenge. 

I don't think it has as much to do with positive training, but more to the type of personality that is strongly attracted to positive training. Good dog trainers with good common sense often adopt more and more positive training techniques, and they work. But they are bringing with them what they have learned by trial and error, much trial and much error. They are bringing with them timing, follow through, telling not asking, one time and then helping, and they also generally have a much more realistic understanding of what a puppy is capable of at each stage. So, they are not just positive trainers now. They are positive trainers that have skills dogs respond to whatever training method you use. Novices haven't learned those skills, and when they apply positive training without the skill, and if they couple that with the personality that is attracted by the positive training spiel, then give them the type of dog that is more likely to challenge their owners, then you have trouble with a capital T. 

Not the fault of positive training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... "someone" could try and "ask" her* if the dog is still sleeping in the bed?? Have changes been made?? And how are things progressing?*? Someone could ... but no one does. :crazy:


 The OP has been pretty quiet, but the OP has already said that the dog likes sleeping on the bed, so it is comfortable there. If something else happens... 

I am guessing the dog still has the bed.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Seltzer, you are making great points. Positive training is an admirable philosophy
and is attractive to a novice ( like me). But I'm learning it is not enough. We have to get to know our dogs' personalities enough to know what we need to do to be respected as the leader. That seems so obvious to an experienced owner but not someone like me. I recently had an issue with one of my boys growling on my bed when I shifted positions. So I now let him get on the bed at night for a few hugs and snuggles but then I snap my fingers and tell him "off". He quickly gets down and we've had no other problems. If he ever complains about this new routine he will lose all bed privileges. I know he will continue to test the limits and I know I have to communicate clearly to him. He wants that and needs it. He is more comfortable when I clearly take the leadership role. His brother has never challenged me but may in the future. They are both quick to respond to my husbands' deep, powerful voice. 
It's like like bulbs turning on for me every day..and I can build on the knowledge and become more effective.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is selzer -- no T in there. Thanks. 

If having the dog come up, get snuggles, and then get off and sleep on the floor works for you, that is great.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The bed is no problem with my young dog. The issue has been those 2lb oh so precious knuckle bones. When she first growled at me with a bone it was at 8 mos. I had been doing treat training and redirect. Wouldn't work for this.

With this problem, I knew I was dealing with a behavior that had to be corrected. No dog of mine ever growls at me. That's a precursor for pushing in all areas if allowed. We're at the point now that she will be very engrossed in chewing her bone and I will intentionally go into the kitchen to interrupt her.

She will let one growl out and then she will abandon the bone and stand out of the kitchen (wagging her tail with her ears back like I'm sorry I just had a really intense desire to bite you for a second)l I go in and get what I need and leave, tell her good girl and she'll go back in to her bone.

She cannot feel other than she does about the bone - she can remove herself from the situation to break the conflict she feels. It's not the best solution but it's a workable solution and I am happy she's learned to check herself.

If her problem was with bed privileges - if she was encouraged to stay in a situation that she clearly had a problem with night after night - PLUS lack of training on how to get the heck out of that situation (get down!) I can see it just getting stuck in an endless cycle with no understandable way out of conflict for the dog. Not necessarily a sign of respect - just an "out" for a conflict situation.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jake and Elwood, you can be defensive but it means you are missing what people are saying. We aren't trying to be edgy or rude. I spent a lot of money with a quality behaviorist to learn what I'm sharing for free. I've spent years in classes learning what I share for free. I've dealt with aggressive rescues, and my first reaction to our trainer was always "yes, but." I quickly learned if I wanted to be stubborn and not listen, the problems didn't go away. It's so easy to avoid problems with dogs by starting out with a strong foundation. We are trying to share our page experiences from all the mistakes we made along the way. I made a lot of them and I'm still making mistakes. I have an almost 5 month old who jumps on people, and all the positive training methods have done is reinforce it. Now I'm trying to break him of it. It wouldn't have happened, had I not tried positive in the first place. He's just too smart for that. If I can help anyone from making my mistakes I will, even if it sounds rude. The OP can choose to ignore.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How could positive training have taught your dog to jump on people? What positive methods did you use to train your dog not to jump on people? I am really curious about this.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Not defensive....and I am not missing the point. Just the opposite, I am extremely grateful to the experienced members of this forum who have and continue to generously share their experience and expertise. I just hope you realize that some of us are also spending an extraordinary amount of time, energy, and $$ on trainers, classes, socialization experiences, and behaviorist skin an effort to raise our dogs to be honorable representatives of the GSD breed. In addition, we are actively seeking helpful pearls from the experienced members of the forum. 
I have come to realize that it takes more than just a positive approach. They require clear, strong, consistent leadership. As I understand it more and more, I find myself having more success and less stress related to appropriate corrections. Our dogs seem to be ' getting it" and for that I am grateful...and to the members of this forum, I am grateful. I know we have a long road ahead but I am beginning to have more confidence we can get there.


QUOTE=LuvShepherds;7600393]Jake and Elwood, you can be defensive but it means you are missing what people are saying. We aren't trying to be edgy or rude. I spent a lot of money with a quality behaviorist to learn what I'm sharing for free. I've spent years in classes learning what I share for free. I've dealt with aggressive rescues, and my first reaction to our trainer was always "yes, but." I quickly learned if I wanted to be stubborn and not listen, the problems didn't go away. It's so easy to avoid problems with dogs by starting out with a strong foundation. We are trying to share our page experiences from all the mistakes we made along the way. I made a lot of them and I'm still making mistakes. I have an almost 5 month old who jumps on people, and all the positive training methods have done is reinforce it. Now I'm trying to break him of it. It wouldn't have happened, had I not tried positive in the first place. He's just too smart for that. If I can help anyone from making my mistakes I will, even if it sounds rude. The OP can choose to ignore.[/QUOTE]


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Seltzer, you are making great points. Positive training is an admirable philosophy
> and is attractive to a novice ( like me). But I'm learning it is not enough. We have to get to know our dogs' personalities enough to know what we need to do to be respected as the leader. That seems so obvious to an experienced owner but not someone like me. I recently had an issue with one of my boys growling on my bed when I shifted positions. So I now let him get on the bed at night for a few hugs and snuggles but then I snap my fingers and tell him "off". He quickly gets down and we've had no other problems. If he ever complains about this new routine he will lose all bed privileges. I know he will continue to test the limits and I know I have to communicate clearly to him. He wants that and needs it. He is more comfortable when I clearly take the leadership role. His brother has never challenged me but may in the future. They are both quick to respond to my husbands' deep, powerful voice.
> It's like like bulbs turning on for me every day..and I can build on the knowledge and become more effective.


I don't see anything wrong with this. In any kind of training I prefer to give my dog the chance to make the right choice. Corrections come into play if they don't make the right choice. I've found that they are very capable of making the right choice and on very rare occasions need that correction. You are giving your dog a chance to make the right choice and move when you say. The consequence if the dog makes the wrong choice is no more bed--it's a fair compromise for all.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> How could positive training have taught your dog to jump on people? What positive methods did you use to train your dog not to jump on people? I am really curious about this.


1. When the dog jumps turn your back and walk away.
He jumps on my back.
2. When the dog jumps throw a treat on the floor and say Off. 
He jumps more to get the Off and the treat. He does the same on the furniture when I tell him to get Off. I wish now, I had done one sharp pull on the leash the first time he did either of those things so he would never do it again. Now it's a game to him and I can't seem to break him of it. We are in puppy kindergarten and the instructors tried the same thing, and he jumped on them too. Or he wouldn't jump at all so they couldn't show me what works.

He is the first German Shepherd I've had that jumps on people and the first I've used all positive on.

What am I missing?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> 1. When the dog jumps turn your back and walk away.
> He jumps on my back.
> 2. When the dog jumps throw a treat on the floor and say Off.
> He jumps more to get the Off and the treat. He does the same on the furniture when I tell him to get Off. I wish now, I had done one sharp pull on the leash the first time he did either of those things so he would never do it again. Now it's a game to him and I can't seem to break him of it. We are in puppy kindergarten and the instructors tried the same thing, and he jumped on them too. Or he wouldn't jump at all so they couldn't show me what works.
> ...


You have to undo it. When he jumps on you, tell him to sit. Robyn was a jumper when she was younger. We taught her to go to her spot. After a while when we walked in she would automatically go to her spot so we could pet her. She still does it to this day. Brennan the worlds most stubborn golden is also a jumper and I say is because he will if he is allowed. All we have to say to him now is do you want to be pet? Once he hears that he goes right into a sit. He wiggles his whole butt, but he is sitting.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

That's all good until they break threshold because of excitement. My dog will mind to a tee, even without reward or redirection until an unusual situation arises that she will lose it ....... Reward training has it's limits - I could be offering a filet mignon chunk to my pup but when she's overwhelmed about meeting a new very nice person.... she's gonna jump on them and poohy to the piece of filet.... for a moment anyway...


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> He is the first German Shepherd I've had that jumps on people and the first I've used all positive on.
> 
> What am I missing?


Llombardo's suggestion of _replacing _the behavior with sit absolutely works. Give the dog an alternate thing to do. It takes tons of consistency, but it works -- the "sit" can become the attention-seeking behavior in some of these dogs, and it's way easier to live with. I had one foster dog who would butt-slide like she was sliding into home-base and greet me with a "Ta Da!" grin after we instilled this behavior -- she was a BAD jumper, and had been for several years when she came to us, but once she figured out that greeting me with a sit worked better for her, she eventually gave up the jumping. She had a replacement behavior that worked better, so she used it. The key is she only got attention when she sat politely, so it became her default position when she wanted _anything_ from me.

I also think the "yield" exercise works wonderfully, if you are consistent. Put on a sweatshirt to shield your arms. Cross your arms, standing up straight. Let the dog jump. Calmly, silently, slide your feet to claim the space the dog launched from. The dog will move (yield), then jump again from a new angle. Repeat, claiming that space too. This "dance" is a silent conversation. After 3-4 jumps, nearly all dogs give up....no fun to keep having to give up space, and get nothing back. Now put the dog in a sit --- and give praise and attention (their real object of desire when they jump) as long as the dog stays sitting. Calmly restart the yielding dance if they pop up and start jumping again. I think it works much better than ignoring the dog.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I went back to the "old ways" for training when my puppy was nipping. Gentle squeeze lips to teeth. Fixed in 4 days.

I'm about ready to go back to the "old way" I trained my previous 5 dogs not to jump. Hold their paws when they jump, gentle squeeze (they don't like that) and further gently step on their back paw (they really don't like that). Very quickly they stop throwing their front paws at a stranger and are mindful of exposing their back paws too. 

I've tried the newer ways and sometimes the ways that have worked for the last 80 years are better - work quickly and in the long run foolproof....


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I can't see allowing the dog on the bed as an exceptional cause of problems of this nature. But, I can see how existing problems (in general) can really show themselves most plainly when this is allowed......
> 
> I was watching some puppy temperament testing videos yesterday and was amazed how much they can tell about what the puppy will most likely behave like as an adult. I may be way off base on this but;
> 
> ...



I don't think the "bed" privileges are the root cause of this dog's, or any dog's, aggression issues. I think allowing a dog to think that he/she sleeps on equal footing with you *is the type of oversight that can lead to obedience/respect issues in general.* Similarly, letting a dog claim a toy as his/her own or baring teeth when you go near their food dish sets the wrong precedent in a dog-owner relationship. 

I don't know the the OP or the dog well enough to say what the exact cause of this problem is. I do know that pretty much *any trainer who has experience with GSD and other working breeds* will tell you that allowing your dog to sleep on your bed is absolutely taboo, for all the reasons that I and others have listed.

I appreciate that there are a lot of different people on this forum, with different views on training and raising dogs. But there are certain standards that, ideally speaking, should be universally enforced with this breed due to the GSD's intelligence and, at times, overly confident personality.

From what the OP described to us, the dog "claimed" his place/territory on the bed, and the OP did not challenge him. There are pretty obvious corrective measures that need to be adopted. It's up to the OP to make a decision on that.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thank you for the suggestions. I felt badly about making this thread about me, but the suggestions can help the OP, too. I should be clearer, he mostly jumps around food. He jumps on the barricade between the kitchen and his crate area when I get his food. If I let him in with me, he jumps on me or the counter. He also counter surfs if I let him run in ahead of me. He's terrible on the leash, so leashing him first doesn't solve the problem. We are doing leash work today, actually. I've blocked off an hour of time to get that under control. He will sit if I tell him, but only if he has my full attention. If I'm scooping up food, he knows I'm not watching him and he jumps, so he's more of a stealth jumper. He associates the sound of the food bin opening with a meal. He also know the pop of the top off his smaller food container that I've measured out for the day and he goes nuts, then when he jumps, my older dog starts herding him and barking to make him behave and we end up with a noisy out of control circus.

If I have the food in the bowl to put in his crate, he will run ahead and sit quietly in the crate, so we are about halfway there.

He jumps on other people a lot more than on me. My friends' children love playing with him, but he's constantly jumping on them. I have done some of the "sit" work then, he sits very well, but he gets so wound up at greeting people he "forgets."

Lombardo, I can try the yield dance. That would work for him. Another challenge I have is that for me, he only jumps around food, rarely can I "make" him jump so I can work on it, and it's usually when I have my hands full or some other reason I can't just drop everything and make him sit.

I'm embarrassed to say he doesn't yet have his own bed because he chews every bed we've given him. His "spot" is lying on my feet on the floor when I'm sitting down and eating or working online.

Stone, I agree, the old methods worked a lot better for me. One or two leash corrections in a prong collar and my dogs rarely misbehaved again. But he's too little for one and I'm trying not to have to rely on that anyway.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Dalton, that's a good connection between claiming the bed and other things. I don't look at it as aggression but as confusion between what is his and what is theirs, and as possessiveness. If it only happens in isolated situations around things (bed space, food dish, toys) it's not yet generalized to all people but to the things that the dog thinks are his. The OP doesn't want a growl in the bed to become a growl to always get what the dog wants. I had that situation with a rescue and it was a constant struggle to keep the dog from going off on people. That's why the things that "belong" to my dogs are kept separate. I even rotate their crates so they don't become possessive of those. When they are in their crates, it's their space, but sometimes the space changes.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> Thank you for the suggestions. I felt badly about making this thread about me, but the suggestions can help the OP, too. I should be clearer, he mostly jumps around food. He jumps on the barricade between the kitchen and his crate area when I get his food. If I let him in with me, he jumps on me or the counter. He also counter surfs if I let him run in ahead of me. He's terrible on the leash, so leashing him first doesn't solve the problem. We are doing leash work today, actually. I've blocked off an hour of time to get that under control. He will sit if I tell him, but only if he has my full attention. If I'm scooping up food, he knows I'm not watching him and he jumps, so he's more of a stealth jumper. He associates the sound of the food bin opening with a meal. He also know the pop of the top off his smaller food container that I've measured out for the day and he goes nuts, then when he jumps, my older dog starts herding him and barking to make him behave and we end up with a noisy out of control circus.
> 
> If I have the food in the bowl to put in his crate, he will run ahead and sit quietly in the crate, so we are about halfway there.
> 
> ...


You have to make sure you reward for holding a position, not breaking the position. If he's allowed to break the sit and come to his food, he's not going to learn to hold that sit. He's always going to anticipate getting up for his food.

What might be easier is downing him and rewarding him in that place for holding it, then correcting him if he comes out of it, or at least putting him right back in the same spot. I'd spend some time on it separate of his meals though and I'd feed him in his crate for a while so you can let him settle down before you put the food in.

If you're going to work on him not jumping on people, I think its easier too if you don't create the expectation that the sit is going to end and he's going to get to go ahead and jump. Reward the sit and move on to something else not involving the other people petting him. 

Given the chance mine will jump on people. I've probably spent 10 minutes of his life working on manners, I just find it easier to make him sit or lay down while I talk to anyone. That he can do. The beds? Some dogs never quit destroying them. We've had a couple seniors that couldn't be left with anything soft.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I do feed him in his crate. I'm confused. If he runs into the crate and sits, then how do I not reward him for getting up? Once I give him his food, he jumps up to eat it. I usually try to make him stay sitting until I say OK, but in he morning when he's very hungry he can't wait and I cant reach him to hold him back. Should I say OK and let him break the sit first and then put the food down? I have to feed him in his crate and the other dog separately or they both eat together out of the closest dish and they are on different foods.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> I do feed him in his crate. I'm confused. If he runs into the crate and sits, then how do I not reward him for getting up? Once I give him his food, he jumps up to eat it. I usually try to make him stay sitting until I say OK, but in he morning when he's very hungry he can't wait and I cant reach him to hold him back. Should I say OK and let him break the sit first and then put the food down? I have to feed him in his crate and the other dog separately or they both eat together out of the closest dish and they are on different foods.


Don't give him any release. Don't say ok. Put him in the crate before you get the food, or have the food out of sight but ready in the bowl. Just put it in there when he's being quite. Let him settle down. You're just trying to break the cycle of him amping up and getting his food. I don't want to create a lot of conflict over meals by demanding a lot of obedience at that time, but teaching him to always explode into something on a release gives you that anticipation.

Does that make sense?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It does. When he's hungry he never settles down in the crate. He whines a loud horrible whine and paces. I mentioned somewhere else he's underweight and is always hungry. I can't hide food from him. He sees or smells it. The only way to keep it a secret is to dish it out the night before and hide it outside of the house. He can hear even one piece of kibble going into his dish or a container. He's very alert.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Can you put his meal in the crate without him knowing and then put him in with it?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This is way off topic, so I'm going to start a new thread. It's very helpful to me but not to the OP's original question.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I started a new thread on Calming techniques, which is what I need help with so we can get back to the OP's question here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> 1. When the dog jumps turn your back and walk away.
> He jumps on my back.
> 2. When the dog jumps throw a treat on the floor and say Off.
> He jumps more to get the Off and the treat. He does the same on the furniture when I tell him to get Off. I wish now, I had done one sharp pull on the leash the first time he did either of those things so he would never do it again. Now it's a game to him and I can't seem to break him of it. We are in puppy kindergarten and the instructors tried the same thing, and he jumped on them too. Or he wouldn't jump at all so they couldn't show me what works.
> ...


 What you are missing is bad training is bad training, and the people who are teaching you to train positively are making mistakes or not helping you fix it when you apply it incorrectly. 

First of all, no treats, no attention unless there are four on the floor. Four feet on the floor when he comes to greet and he gets a treat. No other times, but you can remind him BEFORE he jumps to do something, SIT. Dog doesn't jump and sits. Good, give him a treat. If he jumps on you at all, no treats. 

Lots of people with prong collars on their manic puppies, have pups that will run up and jump on people in greeting. I see these dogs at training classes, and I see the owners sawing away at the lead or saying NO, or OFF! and it just isn't working. It isn't a positive training thing, it is a type of GSD thing. And you can train it with a sharp, meaningful correction or you can train it by outwitting the dog. Giving treats only for behavior you want, preventing behavior you do not want until he has learned, and teaching him to SIT for greeting new people.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Got it thank you.


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