# 4 of the original GSD studs were WOLF CROSSES? Do our dogs have wolf in them?



## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

I want to research the origins of the GSD because I love studying history and I love our dogs. I'm pretty sure there are books out there that go into detail on the GSD beginnings. Maybe even some biographies on Max von Stephanitz. If you have any recommendations, please let me know so I can check my library or purchase them online.

Also, I checked back on Wikipedia (I know you can't trust anything on Wikipedia, which is why I'm running this past you guys: the expert historians!) and found the below quote that mentions some of the original stud dogs were wolf crosses. Does that mean a small percentage of every GSD or some of our GSDs might be the slightest bit wolf? Just curious. I know when watching wolf documentaries, they always compare the wolf's body/size/shape to be most comparable to a GSD out of all of the domesticated dog breeds.



> Horand was declared to be the first German Shepherd Dog and was the first dog added to the society's breed register. Horand became the centre-point of the breeding programs and was bred with dogs belonging to other society members that displayed desirable traits. Although fathering many pups, Horand's most successful was _Hektor von Schwaben_.[8] Hektor was inbred with another of Horand's offspring and produced _Beowulf_, who later fathered a total of eighty-four pups, mostly through being inbred with Hektor's other offspring. *In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ No. 41 to SZ No. 76, there are 4 Wolf Crosses.[9]* Beowulf's progeny also were inbred and it is from these pups that all German Shepherds draw a genetic link. It is believed the society accomplished its goal mostly due to Von Stephanitz's strong, uncompromising leadership and he is therefore credited with being the creator of the German Shepherd Dog


Thanks in advance for any and all help on the books and the quote/question!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Let's see, in seven years, you can have three generations. So over 100 years, you have to figure there have been probably 42 generations. If there was wolf back there, it is way back there. I undertand that Max culled pretty aggressively, and I am sure that he realized early on that wolf wasn't a good idea. My guess is that if Wickapaedia got it right, than there probably weren't many dogs that survived to breed with wolf in them.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I read that the Czech Republic military tried to introduce this into their breeding program. If I remember correctly, they weren't happy with the results, and it was a short lived experiment.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

This is a longtime rumor that does not appear to be substantiated. But even if it were true, the amount of wolf blood in modern GSDs would be pretty negligable.

People have been experimenting with wolf/GSD crosses in an attempt to make some kind of super-working dog, but actually, they generally make lousy working dogs. If there were individual dogs in the early GSD that dipslayed wolf-type behavior or temperament, they were probably culled. It would have been totally counter to their breeding goals.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

There have been NUMEROUS recent "breed" attempts, crossing wolves with GSDs, to create an "improved" version of the breed. Almost all these attempts failed because wolf hybrids maintain a skittish temperament that is not suitable for most work.

Sarloos wolfhound would be the most noted, bred by a Dutch man. Hoping to make a breed closely related to the german shepherd that was also immune to distemper and possessed less "domestication" and more intelligent working capability. Several of his first dogs resulting from these breedings died of distemper (and in fact the first she-wolf he purchased also died of distemper), and were to skittish and lacked the will to attack to even perform in sport.

Czechoslovakian wolfdog is a better example, carpathian wolves crossed with WL GSDs to produce border patrol dogs. Much better working capability as they lack much of the skittish behaviors other hybrids posses, but training can still be very selective and challenging.

I guess point here is hybrids more often then not do NOT posses the qualities that Max was looking for in his breeding program. If they did exist (and it's very possible they did, remember he used herding dogs as his founding stock and they could easily of cross bred), it is unlikely they would of been the leading stock for the foundation of the breed. A few may of possessed traits he was interested in, but I find it very unlikely he would of used a large number of F1 hybrids. And even if he did, as someone else pointed out the number of generations that have passed, probably 40-50+, it would make very little difference.

The russian farm fox experiment showed that it takes only 14 generations of selective breeding to DOMESTICATE a fox. Not tame it, but actually domesticate it to the point that dog-like features are exhibited (coloration change, curled tails, rose ears, barking, etc... Interestingly enough this experiment also showed that there was a direct link between domestication and physical change - which is how we have the variety of breeds we do today). If a fox can be tamed and turned into a new species in essence in only 14 generations, then 40 generations would wipe out any trace of "wild wolf" in the german shepherd breed.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for the replies!

Anyone know of some good books/bios to read about the origins of our beloved GSDs?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture: Max von Stephanitz: 9789993280057: Amazon.com: Books

Published in 1925, written by the founder of the breed. Great reading, really interesting photos. Every GSD enthusiast should have this book on their shelf--IMO, it clears up a lot of misconceptions about what the breed should be. You can sometimes find good used copies around $35.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Get Max v Stephanitz' book "The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture". It will cover just about any question you could have about the beginning of the breed.

As to wolf crosses, this was tried a few times early on in the development of the breed, and considered a failure every time. Did some of those dogs go on to produce offspring that were included in the breed? Sure, but the influence is very small as they were used minimally compared to the other dogs that founded the breed and what tiny bit of wolf was there then has now been very diluted over more than 100 years.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Posted some thing similar earlier, but no activity.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/212218-canis-poutiantini.html

Second the GSD in Word & Picture. 

Check out the research of Theophil Studer (Spoken about in the book), very good propositions. Further research shows conflicting reports that all dogs descended from Canis lupus, not through the branches that Studer is proposing, especially no jackal (Canis aereus). One way or another, recent DNA tests show all dogs are descended from a form of wolf. 
These are in German, but translate them, they are decent reads.
Urrasse ? Wikipedia

Urhund ? Wikipedia

Dingo (C. lupus ferus) is spoken about in depth in the book. So there is a very good chance that GSD may have a lot of dingo in it. Very good read.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

...und taeglich gruesst das Murmeltier..


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

https://www.princeton.edu/genomics/kruglyak/publication/PDF/2004_Parker_Genetic.pdf


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

If you go back far enough, didn't all dogs come from wolves? lol

How the Dog Became the Dog: From Wolves to Our Best Friends: Mark Derr: 9781590207000: Amazon.com: Books


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> If you go back far enough, didn't all dogs come from wolves? lol
> 
> How the Dog Became the Dog: From Wolves to Our Best Friends: Mark Derr: 9781590207000: Amazon.com: Books



Yes, this is true.

If you can look up the February 2012 National Geographic, there is a graph analyzing the DNA of 85 breeds. They are broken down into 4 groups:
Wolflike
Herders
Hunters
Mastifflike

The GSD has some of the least wolflike DNA. The are considered, Mastiff-like. Their DNA is similar to the French Bulldog (maybe that's why I love this breed 2nd to GSD's!),


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jag said:


> I read that the Czech Republic military tried to introduce this into their breeding program. If I remember correctly, they weren't happy with the results, and it was a short lived experiment.



Well, thank goodness for that!


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

How the Dog Became the Dog: From Wolves to Our Best Friends by Mark Derr is an excellent book. Not so much about German Shepherds but about the origin of the dog.


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## Tom888 (Nov 18, 2012)

Jag said:


> I read that the Czech Republic military tried to introduce this into their breeding program. If I remember correctly, they weren't happy with the results, and it was a short lived experiment.


Czechoslovakian wolfdog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The breed still exists today. In Slovakia and Czech republic they commonly call both this breed and GSDs vlčák or vlčiak which stands for wolfdog, thus creating some confusion.
Its not common though. Most of the "vlčiaks" I have seen were in fact Czech (Czechoslovakian) style GSDs or GSD crosses.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

From what I've been able to gather, this seems to have been an obsessive rumor started by Tina Barber (founder of the Shiloh Shepherds), with absolutely no factual basis whatsoever. She claims to have had an original of Von Stephanitz' book in the English, before the second editions and beyond (conveniently, what most people own) "cleaned up" the mentions of wolf blood. I have a friend who does own a first edition and no such entry exists that she is able to find, at any rate.

There have been multiple edit wars on Wikipedia regarding this supposed "fact" about wolves in GSDs. I don't pay it any legitimacy.

Von Stephanitz certainly had no love for the idea of breeding wolves with dogs and I see no reason why on earth he would have attempted to do so at all.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Tom888 said:


> Czechoslovakian wolfdog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The breed still exists today. In Slovakia and Czech republic they commonly call both this breed and GSDs vlčák or vlčiak which stands for wolfdog, thus creating some confusion.
> Its not common though. Most of the "vlčiaks" I have seen were in fact Czech (Czechoslovakian) style GSDs or GSD crosses.



They breed true nowadays. The original ancestor was a male GSD sire mated with a Carpathian wolf bitch. Naturally, the puppies and later dogs took their coloration from the wolf bitch but they should never be confused with wolves. They are no longer a hybrid in the true sense of the word even if they resemble in appearance the ancestral wolf.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NormanF said:


> They breed true nowadays. The original ancestor was a male GSD sire mated with a Carpathian wolf bitch. Naturally, the puppies and later dogs took their coloration from the wolf bitch but they should never be confused with wolves. They are no longer a hybrid in the true sense of the word even if they resemble in appearance the ancestral wolf.


Sooo it acts like a dog or a Wolf? Your the Carpathian rescue guy correct?

I've never seen one in real life so just curious?


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Sooo it acts like a dog or a Wolf? Your the Carpathian rescue guy correct?
> 
> I've never seen one in real life so just curious?



No. There is a poster on this forum who owns a CSV called Kavik. Do a search. In some respects its like a wolf and in other respects its like a GSD.

This is probably how the GSD breed would have ended up if the early beeding with wolves had continued! :wub:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" if the early beeding with wolves had continued!" no , DNA does not bear this out , and no , von Stephanitz in his book frowned on it , said nothing was to be gained , an no again according to his daughter in a 1939 interview -- who dispelled this .
an attempt was made prior to von Stephanitz with the Phylax Society which was determined to create a uniform dog with erect ears , largely to satisfy the needs of the moneyed set to connect with the romance of bucolic life -- the closeness to the savage wilderness. No shepherd needed that . The attempts failed - and von Stephanitz stepped in and picked up the pieces.

this is interesting 2. Canid Genetics


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