# New puppy owner - Knowing when to trust a breeder?



## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

Hello everyone! 

First-time potential owner, first-time poster as well. I am hoping to welcome a GSD this year and while my primary goal was always to rescue or adopt, I have also been researching breeder options.

*Quick TL;DR of what I am looking for:* 
*- Puppy (I really would love to train and be able to bond with the dog from an early age)

Companion dog, family pet
Long coat german shepherd (I'm aware that since it is a "fault" gene, breeders do not necessarily "specialize" in long coat, but it is my preference)
Preference for female, but only because of size and potential temperament (more friendly with strangers), but since I know this is very dog-dependent I am open to both
*

I have been in contact with a local breeder and am seeking advice on whether there are flags based on our first conversation. Here's what I was told, split by things I thought were positive vs. what I'm not sure about.

The "positive":

Found on AKC marketplace, AKC registered 
Their process: Heat in early Feb, bred three times (litter expected early April). After 6 weeks, waitlisted people will be invited to meet the breeders, the sire, and the ONLY the selected gender puppies to ensure good fit. Two additional weeks to then meet the dam and bring the puppy home (home at 8 weeks). 
I asked about how the puppies are socialized - they are socialized and raised in the home 
Dogs fully tested and vaccinated 
Very open to frequent contact and told me to send any questions 
Invited me to attend a puppy training class that they offer with owners of previous litters, to meet the puppies and also the community
Required driver's license check
FB page with current owners and puppy updates 
The "I'm not sure": 

I asked about providing the pedigree of the mother and father and was told it would be provided after the puppy is transferred, after which I can submit their names to AKC and download their lineage. Is this standard practice?
No website, and no info available on dam/sire
Only breed long coat
No mention of contract, but I only recently researched this and plan to follow up
You must pick a gender when waitlisted, and when meeting the puppies after 6 weeks you can ONLY meet that gender puppy 

I really appreciate any and all advice! Thank you! 

(Alternatively, if anyone has recommendations on RESCUE options with my criteria in mind, I would very much love to hear from you. I'm finding it difficult to find an adoption route that also meets what I'm looking for). 

Kindly,
NV


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I would avoid a breeder that only breeds long coats. No reputable breeder purposefully breeds dogs with faults like that.

I would avoid a breeder that doesn’t happily and readily provide dam/sire registered names and health testing results. The sire and dam should both have hips/elbows tested through OFA after they’re 24 months old. Some people also want the sire and dam tested for DM to be sure they aren’t breeding carrier/carrier or worse.

Finding a breeder on AKC marketplace is actually a con to me. AKC marketplace is almost always a place for BYB and puppy mills to advertise. Reputable breeders don’t need to post there for help selling pups. Being AKC registered is the most bare minimum expectation and is NOT something to brag about.

Do you pick the puppy or does the breeder pick a puppy for you?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The short of my answer is I would choose a different breeder.


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## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

Pytheis said:


> I would avoid a breeder that only breeds long coats. No reputable breeder purposefully breeds dogs with faults like that.
> 
> I would avoid a breeder that doesn’t happily and readily provide dam/sire registered names and health testing results. The sire and dam should both have hips/elbows tested through OFA after they’re 24 months old. Some people also want the sire and dam tested for DM to be sure they aren’t breeding carrier/carrier or worse.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the quick reply! I didn't know that about AKC being a con, that's super helpful and something I will now watch out for. 

She said I would pick the puppy, which is another thing I forgot to mention has me a little worried. From what I've read, the breeder should spend time getting to know you as the potential owner, and they should know the puppies that would best fit needs. Thoughts?

NV


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

NAV said:


> Thanks for the quick reply! I didn't know that about *AKC being a con*, that's super helpful and something I will now watch out for.
> 
> She said I would pick the puppy, which is another thing I forgot to mention has me a little worried. From what I've read, the breeder should spend time getting to know you as the potential owner, and they should know the puppies that would best fit needs. Thoughts?
> 
> NV


AKC marketplace is the con. AKC itself is simply a registry.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

There are definitely German Showline breeders that breed for coats - It is against the SV rules to breed a LC to a stock coat. But the pedigree part is BS!


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

NAV said:


> Thanks for the quick reply! I didn't know that about AKC being a con, that's super helpful and something I will now watch out for.
> 
> She said I would pick the puppy, which is another thing I forgot to mention has me a little worried. From what I've read, the breeder should spend time getting to know you as the potential owner, and they should know the puppies that would best fit needs. Thoughts?
> 
> NV


I personally agree with this. The breeder knows the pups best, and if someone wants a couch potato dog but thinks the energizer-bunny-puppy is the cutest, well they’ll pick the energizer bunny and not be happy in the end. The breeder should be most concerned with finding the puppies the correct home. Someone that meets the puppies for a few minutes twice will never get a good enough read to find the correct temperament for their home.

Bear in mind that AKC is purely a registry for purebred dogs. They do absolutely nothing to regulate if breeders are ethical and performing good breeding practices. They don’t care if a place is a mill, so long as the dogs are purebred. That’s why the AKC marketplace isn’t a good place to shop.


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## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

Fodder said:


> AKC marketplace is the con. AKC itself is simply a registry.



Right sorry, my bad - too quick in typing my phrasing there! Thanks for clarifying.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Lots of your positives would be negatives to me.
Not in your area, but I would suggest you go to von Tighe Haus website and read through the articles she has on breeder selection.


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## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

Pytheis said:


> I personally agree with this. The breeder knows the pups best, and if someone wants a couch potato dog but thinks the energizer-bunny-puppy is the cutest, well they’ll pick the energizer bunny and not be happy in the end. *The breeder should be most concerned with finding the puppies the correct home*. Someone that meets the puppies for a few minutes twice will never get a good enough read to find the correct temperament for their home.
> 
> Bear in mind that AKC is purely a registry for purebred dogs. *They do absolutely nothing to regulate if breeders are ethical and performing good breeding practices. *They don’t care if a place is a mill, so long as the dogs are purebred. That’s why the AKC marketplace isn’t a good place to shop.



Ok, I'm glad some of my suspicions weren't totally off-base. I will continue my search elsewhere. Thanks for being so informative, I really appreciate it!


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## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> Lots of your positives would be negatives to me.
> Not in your area, but I would suggest you go to vom Tighe Haus website and read through the articles she has on breeder selection.



I'd love to hear what stood out - I'm still learning what to watch out for, and just learned from another poster that I shouldn't just automatically trust AKC marketplace. Thanks for the recommendation, I will look into it! 

NV


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I don’t care about the breeder being on AKC market place. It doesn’t tell me anything about them. You should absolutely be allowed to meet and see both parents before the breeding and before paying any money. The no pedigree before the puppy is received is an automatic deal breaker for me. That should be available before any money is passed. As for meeting the puppies, once I have a breeder I trust and we have discussed and understand what I’m looking for in the dog, I don’t need to meet the puppy at all. I’m fine buying it sight unseen. Some breeders pick for you, some may allow you to choose from a list of suitable candidates. I’m fine with either option. Every dog should be fully tested and vaccinated. That isn’t a talking point. If the dogs aren’t, I would walk away. I don’t know what they pan to check with a driver’s license, that seems dumb and kind of suspicious to me. I wouldn’t choose a breeder that only bred long coats. It’s fine for you to have a preference, but it should be pretty low on the list.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would look elsewhere. Good that you avoided a potential disappointment by asking your questions before you dove into this on.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

NAV said:


> Found on AKC marketplace, AKC registered
> You already got this answer
> Their process: Heat in early Feb, bred three times (litter expected early April). After 6 weeks, waitlisted people will be invited to meet the breeders, the sire, and the ONLY the selected gender puppies to ensure good fit. Two additional weeks to then meet the dam and bring the puppy home (home at 8 weeks).
> I've spoken to a ton of breeders, multiple times. I'm friends with a few on FB. ALL would have agreed to meet with me whether or not they had pups to sell, and are more then willing to chat about their dogs. How else do they get to know people? Place puppies properly? What if the perfect pup for you is not your preferred gender?
> ...


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## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t care about the breeder being on AKC market place. It doesn’t tell me anything about them. You should absolutely be allowed to meet and see both parents before the breeding and before paying any money. The no pedigree before the puppy is received is an automatic deal breaker for me. That should be available before any money is passed. As for meeting the puppies, once I have a breeder I trust and we have discussed and understand what I’m looking for in the dog, I don’t need to meet the puppy at all. I’m fine buying it sight unseen. Some breeders pick for you, some may allow you to choose from a list of suitable candidates. I’m fine with either option. Every dog should be fully tested and vaccinated. That isn’t a talking point. If the dogs aren’t, I would walk away. I don’t know what they pan to check with a driver’s license, that seems dumb and kind of suspicious to me. I wouldn’t choose a breeder that only bred long coats. It’s fine for you to have a preference, but it should be pretty low on the list.



Good point about the driver's license check - it seemed a little strange to me too. I even asked "Do you have questions for me? Would you like any references?" and the reply I got was no, the DL check is enough.. Very weird. 

This is a solid set of guidelines I'll save and keep referencing as I continue on. Moving on from this option though for sure! Thank you for your advice. 

NV


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## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

Wow, lots to unpack here and good flags to keep an eye out for - thanks for taking the time to respond! It sounds like in general that the answers I got were way too vague to be helpful or give me any confidence that this isn't more than an BYB. And oh man the DL check - so glad I posted here before continuing on with this breeder. 

NV


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

All our GS's have been shelter dogs. They get turned in for crazy reasons. Some are the 'unadoptables' because of behavior problems but those can be remedied. Jake was just a puppy that came from another shelter for an adoptathon. Lucky was the neighborhood chicken thief ordered out of the county he lived in. He was also the sweetest dog ever, kisses for everyone. Buck was just a stray, Duke was a stray. Ellie was a frequent shelter guest because of her naughty behavior and Elke was the Terror of the Shelter. She is also the sweetest, best behaved dog we've ever had. Duke and Elke are the current pair, he's a long hair (hair EVERYWHERE, be prepared for daily grooming). Pics: left to right - Lucky, Buck and Elke and Duke. 
I would recommend you watch all your local shelters websites.


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## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

Buckelke said:


> All our GS's have been shelter dogs. They get turned in for crazy reasons. Some are the 'unadoptables' because of behavior problems but those can be remedied. Jake was just a puppy that came from another shelter for an adoptathon. Lucky was the neighborhood chicken thief ordered out of the county he lived in. He was also the sweetest dog ever, kisses for everyone. Buck was just a stray, Duke was a stray. Ellie was a frequent shelter guest because of her naughty behavior and Elke was the Terror of the Shelter. She is also the sweetest, best behaved dog we've ever had. Duke and Elke are the current pair, he's a long hair (hair EVERYWHERE, be prepared for daily grooming). Pics: left to right - Lucky, Buck and Elke and Duke.
> I would recommend you watch all your local shelters websites.



Your dogs are beautiful!! And what incredible background stories - I'm still hopeful that I can find a companion with the rescue route. Thanks for sharing.

NV


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

NAV said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> First-time potential owner, first-time poster as well. I am hoping to welcome a GSD this year and while my primary goal was always to rescue or adopt, I have also been researching breeder options.
> 
> ...


Run!!


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

I just wanted you to know you can find a great dog at a shelter. Our dogs came from 3 different shelters and Ellie came from the county lock up. She was difficult but lovable for her insanity. We had her 10 years. Sometimes the dog no one wants is the right dog for you.


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

Hey, look at the rehoming posts on this forum. There's a really nice looking guy, about 1.5 years old looking for a home. Gets along with cats, ducks, but not other dogs in the home. May want to check it out.


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## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

Honey Maid said:


> Hey, look at the rehoming posts on this forum. There's a really nice looking guy, about 1.5 years old looking for a home. Gets along with cats, ducks, but not other dogs in the home. May want to check it out.


Oh really? Thank you for the suggestion! I didn't realize that was a space on this forum. I'll look around, but please let me know if you have any links I can start with. 

NV


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

Atlas needs a home








My Atlas (Rehoming)


Looking for a home preferably with a puppy or no other dogs, great with kids and our ducks and cats. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




www.germanshepherds.com


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## BleuHaus (Oct 31, 2020)

NAV said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> First-time potential owner, first-time poster as well. I am hoping to welcome a GSD this year and while my primary goal was always to rescue or adopt, I have also been researching breeder options.
> 
> ...


Hello ..When was this written...I would be more then happy to give you some help...I have been involved with GSD's for a long time...q


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

AKC marketplace is used by a lot of breeders. I would not consider that a con, since I have used it. Long stock coat is a recessive gene, so can randomly appear if both sire and dam carry for it. If both parents have passed health testing and titling, no reason not to see what they produce together. There is a market for it, you yourself are driving that market. I freely post pedigrees of planned breedings, why would I have anything to hide. That just doesn't make sense to me. Link's to OFA pages for health testing, Embark testing are provided. I do pick puppies for my buyers, or give choice of which I believe would be a good fit.


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## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

vomlittlehaus said:


> AKC marketplace is used by a lot of breeders. I would not consider that a con, since I have used it. Long stock coat is a recessive gene, so can randomly appear if both sire and dam carry for it. If both parents have passed health testing and titling, no reason not to see what they produce together. There is a market for it, you yourself are driving that market. I freely post pedigrees of planned breedings, why would I have anything to hide. That just doesn't make sense to me. Link's to OFA pages for health testing, Embark testing are provided. I do pick puppies for my buyers, or give choice of which I believe would be a good fit.



Thank you so much for your reply, it's so helpful to have more information especially now seeing how much information you provide on your site versus what I have experienced so far. I would love to connect with you and learn more about your plans for this year, if possible. Please let me know and what would be the best form of contact. 

Take care!
NAV


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The main red flag is not sharing pedigrees. That is strange. And how will they check your driver's license? The only reason I can see for that is to make sure you are who you say you are- it's not a bad idea, but there are other ways to screen applicants. 

AKC marketplace posting means nothing, good or bad. Simply that the pups will be registerable with AKC. You can't expect every breeder to have a long waiting list from the get go, especially as they start out. People need to find out about the pups somewhere- the screening is what matters. 

Lots of reputable GSD breeders out there with many options for temperament, drive, appearance. If I were you, I'd do some more research and find someone I want to work with and who is producing what I want. Health checks are a must. Meeting pups from previous litters is a big plus- I'd put more stake on pups produced than on the parents themselves. Speaking as a breeder, most dogs don't produce clones of themselves, so seeing what they produce is important. Some produce really nicely, some don't. A good breeder will tell you how their dogs produce, and what to expect in a particular litter.


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## NAV (Jan 25, 2021)

Muskeg said:


> The main red flag is not sharing pedigrees. That is strange. And how will they check your driver's license? The only reason I can see for that is to make sure you are who you say you are- it's not a bad idea, but there are other ways to screen applicants.
> 
> AKC marketplace posting means nothing, good or bad. Simply that the pups will be registerable with AKC. You can't expect every breeder to have a long waiting list from the get go, especially as they start out. People need to find out about the pups somewhere- the screening is what matters.
> 
> Lots of reputable GSD breeders out there with many options for temperament, drive, appearance. If I were you, I'd do some more research and find someone I want to work with and who is producing what I want. Health checks are a must. Meeting pups from previous litters is a big plus- I'd put more stake on pups produced than on the parents themselves. Speaking as a breeder, most dogs don't produce clones of themselves, so seeing what they produce is important. Some produce really nicely, some don't. A good breeder will tell you how their dogs produce, and what to expect in a particular litter.



Thank you so much! Do you have recommendations on any flags to look out for in previous litter pups, or good questions to ask the breeder when meeting them?

Take care,
NAV


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The main thing I'd personally look for is health, proper social behavior (neither too friendly nor reactive/nervy), ability to work in different dog sports and live in the house, and confidence. If I was looking for a sport or working prospect all of the previous would still apply, but there'd be specific additional criteria like drives and how they respond to the handler. 

I like the von Narnia dogs I've seen personally. There are also some nice WGSL breeders I've seen posted on here in the past. A search should bring them up. While I breed working line dogs, I have a soft spot for a nice WGSL shepherd. There are some really excellent breeders out there who produce solid, family-friendly dogs that still have the drives for work.


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