# Socialising and Aggression



## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

I would really like some advice and opinions as I am getting pretty desperate.

I have a lot of experience with dogs having worked with them for years. I am currently living in Portugal and decided to adopt a new German Shepherd puppy (not my first gsd). I got him at 8 weeks. Finding a breeder was hard because I wasn't familiar with any here but I researched and spoke to various breeders until I was happy that I found a good one with healthy dogs. 
Ketchup is a perfectly healthy dog who learns incredibly quickly. He is now nine months. Here are the problems:

From the day I got him he had extreme food aggression. I noticed the signs immediately and tried to do everything I could to control it. Making him sit and stay and wait for the food (which he does with no problems at all), walking by him and dropping in treats etc. All to no avail. The problem has only got worse and worse. He has bitten me on two occasions. Once while he was eating but the second time was simply because I had food and when I reached down to pet him he snapped at me. He hasn't ever punctured my skin. He was showing some signs of dominant aggression but after having him neutered these have basically all but disappeared. The problem only arises when food is involved. 
Problem number 2. We got Ketchup during the summer and I understand the importance of socialising a dog at a young age so we did the best we could by inviting people around constantly and trying to have positive experiences. Dogs were difficult. There were no obedience classes running in the summer and dog parks are non existent. I tried to socialize him with the neighbours dogs but they are horrible dogs and tried to fight him immediately making him very cautious around them and now he is always defensive. I finally have an obedience group he can go to but he is already 9 months and I am afraid it's too late. 
He is usually ok with people but on the weekend we had a party of about 15 people and he was play biting with several and a bit nervous. When two of the woman were leaving they came to say goodbye to him and he started curling his lip up and growling. 
Sorry this is so long. Please, if you have any suggestions I would love to hear them.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Eat your dinner first, in front of him. Spit in all his meals, mix with your hands, and let him watch you "eat" it. 

The aggression is from him being scared you're gonna take away his food. hard to say why this happens if you have never done this although it wouldn't take much at 8 weeks to imprint that behaviour.

Side note: If my dog were to bite me out of aggression, the reaction from me is swift and violent and he is on his back pinned down by the neck. I will absolutely never tolerate any form of aggression to me. He has only accidentally growled at me twice for a correction when he was already amped up at another dog in the area and both times were met with the above. I don't care if I'm in the middle of petsmart, I have no issue correcting my dogs when its needed. Certain things (behaviors that put the dog in a life threatening situation... behaviors that put people in life threatening situations) should be dealt with the harshest correction you can deliver, without any concern as to the dogs attitude or feelings. These are behaviours you wish to eliminate, not modify, so in these cases we don't care about positive motivation. We have a very clear understanding of who the alpha is, and with a large bite-trained dog I cannot afford for there to be any confusion what so ever.

9 months isn't too late for socialization, but if he got bit as a puppy you might have a real tough time of it. I do not introduce puppies to foreign dogs... not until at least 6 months and then its only dogs that *I* trust and in situations that *I* can control. Socialization does not take place on "his" turf btw, it needs to be on neutral ground where both dogs are not reacting territorially.

The lip curling at the women was fear. You need to work on his confidence


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I would highly suggest contacting the obediance group you wrote about. That group can help you a great deal more then spitting in your dog's food. It isn't too late, you will just have to work harder.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I would highly suggest contacting the obediance group you wrote about. That group can help you a great deal more then spitting in your dog's food. It isn't too late, you will just have to work harder.


Of course just the spitting isn't going to resolve the issue.. but it helps to reinforce that the food belongs to me, and that you're getting the scraps that I provide to you. Exactly as it happens in a wolf pack. Alpha eats first and whatever he wants, other dogs eat next in the order of the pack.

But this isn't really an obedience issue, its a confidence/aggression issue. There is a fine line there


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I would highly suggest contacting the obediance group you wrote about. That group can help you a great deal more then spitting in your dog's food. It isn't too late, you will just have to work harder.


You will get a lot of 'expert' advice here. Pick and choose what suits you.
If there is a canine behaviorist available to you, consider that option.


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks so much for all of the advice. It sounds excellent and I will definitely try the quick and tough correction for biting or growling. That was my initial reaction, however, after reading a few other posts on different forums I thought that perhaps it would just make him more aggressive. I completely agree wtih you about the fear aggression as he hasn't met many new people and it was a bit much to handle in one night.

I have contacted the obedience school and they have requested that he come without being an active part of the lesson just so he can have a few weeks to become socialized (get used to the area, the smells, the people and the large group of dogs). The trainer feels this will help ease him in and make obedience easier because he will not be so nervous with the new environment.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> Side note: If my dog were to bite me out of aggression, the reaction from me is swift and violent and he is on his back pinned down by the neck. I will absolutely never tolerate any form of aggression to me. He has only accidentally growled at me twice for a correction when he was already amped up at another dog in the area and both times were met with the above. I don't care if I'm in the middle of petsmart, I have no issue correcting my dogs when its needed. Certain things (behaviors that put the dog in a life threatening situation... behaviors that put people in life threatening situations) should be dealt with the harshest correction you can deliver, without any concern as to the dogs attitude or feelings. These are behaviours you wish to eliminate, not modify, so in these cases we don't care about positive motivation. We have a very clear understanding of who the alpha is, and with a large bite-trained dog I cannot afford for there to be any confusion what so ever.


I don't *necessarily* disagree. My dogs are not allowed to show aggression to me either. I have issued some serious corrections when my dogs have offered aggression on one or two occasions and I agree that a swift harsh correction to a dominant adolescent dog can stop the behavior....HOWEVER...I do this KNOWING that there is a history of trust and a strong pack leadership system in place. 

If the OP's dog lacks trust or a true understanding of his place in the pack...you have to ask yourself where do you take it if the dog escalates?? I know where I would go...but I've had dogs and worked for several years now in protection training where I am more familiar with the way my dog operates in aggression. There is always the possibility that when you react to aggression with a correction that the dog may say "I don't think so..." and you better be darn sure that you're in a situation to win that battle. You don't want to get eaten by the dog, and worst case scenario you correct the dog, it reacts with stronger aggression, you get scared and back off, dog realizes it has won, and continues to escalate. 

Most people do not want to go there with their pet. AND if this dog has a fear issue it could complicate things. 

I would start at NILIF. This is all going to be about management. I would look at the freedoms the dog has and controlling them, I would look at the level of OB training and consider increasing it, and I would look at building the dog's confidence. If this dog was mine, it would eat only out of my hand, it would live in it's crate and only come out on leash, and it would go through a boot camp of obedience. A dog that is fearful will gain a lot if it can learn to work through the distractions of people. The problem will probably go away if these things are improved upon first.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

have you tried HAND feeding him his meals, and I mean piece by piece? 

While I do not think its acceptable for our own animals to growl or bite it's human (unless it's a medical problem/pain),,I would rather have them give that warning growl vs just downright nail with no warning..By giving him an aggressive correction, hey it may work, but then again it could also backfire into making him more aggressive towards you.

First I would try the hand feeding,,if he's nailing YOU while YOU are eating, put him in a crate, put him in a down/stay. I would think most dogs that are food aggressive as this, had to fight for their food when younger and are still fighting for their food.

As for the people thing, may have been to much to soon, to much commotion, 

I think going to the school and hanging out to settle in and get used to the situation/environment is a GOOD idea....go for it


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> Eat your dinner first, in front of him. Spit in all his meals, mix with your hands, and let him watch you "eat" it.



I agree with a lot of what you say but this I don't get. You think the dog will benefit from watching you eat? What's the point in spitting in the food except to gross everyone out?


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## ripsofie (Oct 28, 2010)

Try putting a few pieces, only like 3-4,kibble in his bowl at dinner time(at first you may want to use something high value to him.. like canned food or rice and turkey).. wait untill he eats them and he will want more.. he will look at you or do something trying to figure out how to get more. When he looks at you slowly put a few more pieces of kibble into his bowl. If he doesn't react.. praise him. If he does say AAPP! And dont add any kibble, raise your hand back up and show no attention,( no eye contact or anything) untill he stops and looks at you or calms down. Then add 3-4 peices.. continue doing this behavior everytime you feed him. He will look at your hand coming into the dish as a good thing. not bad. and he will also look at you as his food source..his leader.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If it were me, I would try really hard to find someone who can work with you and your dog. Unfortunately, this is not always easy. 

I would try the NILIF precepts and do that for some time along with basic training. 

Being corrective with a dog can work and it can also backfire. With the help of someone who can read you and the dog, progress could be possible.


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## rgollar (Dec 19, 2010)

I got some advice on another issue here and they said to read a book by Jan Fennell Called " The Dog Listerner". And she talks how to deal with this situation. I tell you its the best book I ever read. I have tried her ways to deal with other things and it work so amazingly and right away. It talks about how to establish yourself as the leader not the dog. Just a suggestion hope all works for you and your dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Excellent advice here.

One BIG caution i will repeat - if you give your dog a BIG correction when he growls at you, make Da^^ sure you are ready to deal with it before you try this. It will work if done correctly and timely but there is a real risk that the dog tries harder! And you must be ready to deal with the reaction, otherwise try another method.

Try to get professional help, if you can!


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

If it were my dog doing this, I would hand feed him. He needs to see that the food is coming from YOU, and your hands = more food. If this were happening with us, I would actually hold the food bowl in my hand at his level, take my other hand and drop a handful in, and when it's gone, repeat so he can see that your hands = more food coming to him. If there would be any form of aggression during the time you are trying this, I would promptly take the bowl and yell NO! If he sees that snapping at you is working for him, he has no reason to stop. He needs to see that you are the alpha and he gets to eat when it's HIS turn and when you say it's OK for him to be eating.


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

all great advice, I will let you know how it works out.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

khamilton said:


> I have contacted the obedience school and they have requested that he come without being an active part of the lesson just so he can have a few weeks to become socialized (get used to the area, the smells, the people and the large group of dogs). The trainer feels this will help ease him in and make obedience easier because he will not be so nervous with the new environment.


Sounds reasonable. 

Try the class!

Also before offering any food from your hand (start will some of his kibble - nothing more exciting) close your fist around it and present the back of your hand, slowly turning your hand and let him sort of sniff and root it out. this way his teeth don't really help him to get at it, but the nose does.

Each time say "take it easy."

I would be concerned about your pup's reaction to friends than have been in the house. Try to get some advice from folks at the obedience classes and ask if they know someone that can work with you one on one.

Good luck!


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

I've done a lot of hand feeding as Ketchup was already food aggressive when we got him. This only seemed to make the problem worse. A trainer I spoke to from Canada said that because the dog had to compete with his brothers and sisters for food as a pup and then I tried to correct it immediately, perhaps the best option is letting the dog eat in peace for awhile and always have food available so that he learns he doesn't have to fight for his food or worry about it. I have tried giving him more space while he eats and it does seem to be working. He now lets me approach him while he eats and give him a pat. I pay close attention to the signs and he still tenses up a little bit but seems much less nervous with the food. I know this goes against establishing yourself as an alpha but it does make sense to me and I have noticed a positive change. Any thoughts?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

All puppies compete for food with brother and sister and according to the trainer in Canada that made him food aggressive? At 8 weeks? and then he became more aggressive because you tried to stop him from being food aggressive? Wow, I would think if that was the case, all puppies that ate with littermates would be food aggressive.
At 8 weeks old he was small enough to stop this issue, at 9 months he is probably getting so big a correction could be painful for you if he decided not to take the correction.
My dogs, from day one are expected to have things taken away from them while eating, playing or doing whatever. If they have a bowl down with food in it, if me or anyone decides to take that bowl away, they better be backing off. if they have a juicy bone in their mouths and anyone reaches to take it, they better be spitting it out of their mouths. I just don't understand how many people let things esculate into a dangerous situation so quickly. You wouldn't let your child kick you everytime you walked by, or bite you when you took their toys away, but for some reason, its okay that the dog does it. Never heard of spitting in their food, my dogs eat so fast, whether hand feeding or not, they would never taste it anyway.


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## MrsWoodcock (Oct 21, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> All puppies compete for food with brother and sister and according to the trainer in Canada that made him food aggressive? At 8 weeks? and then he became more aggressive because you tried to stop him from being food aggressive? Wow, I would think if that was the case, all puppies that ate with littermates would be food aggressive.
> At 8 weeks old he was small enough to stop this issue, at 9 months he is probably getting so big a correction could be painful for you if he decided not to take the correction.
> My dogs, from day one are expected to have things taken away from them while eating, playing or doing whatever. If they have a bowl down with food in it, if me or anyone decides to take that bowl away, they better be backing off. if they have a juicy bone in their mouths and anyone reaches to take it, they better be spitting it out of their mouths. I just don't understand how many people let things esculate into a dangerous situation so quickly. You wouldn't let your child kick you everytime you walked by, or bite you when you took their toys away, but for some reason, its okay that the dog does it. Never heard of spitting in their food, my dogs eat so fast, whether hand feeding or not, they would never taste it anyway.


i don't think the spitting is for taste purposes. I think its more of a "dog smells owner on food" kinda thing.
so the dog puts: food=owner into the equation.


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

This is why I have asked for advice. Why do people let things escalate? They don't. I have always taken this very seriously and the training that I have done with my other German Shepherds has not worked in this case. 
If you do not tolerate any growling, what do you do? Hit the dog? Take away the food? Had feed?
In my dog's case, if I tell him out or stop he will immediately stop and leave the food. However, the problem is there. He is always nervous and still growls when people walk by him while he's eating. 
My other German Shepherd lets the chickens take bits of food from his dish while he is eating. So I have had no problem with training in the past. I have always stopped aggressive behaviour immediately but this is different. If you have no advice to give then don't bother posting.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I realize the spit is for "ownership" of the food. What I meant was my dogs eat their food so fast, they would never know the spit was in the food.

Don't tell me not to post.
I said that most puppies are taught from the very beginning, whether mine or someone elses, to have food taken away from an early age. I never had an issue of growling from a puppy. I never expected my puppy to growl and never let it happen. I just did what I always did; I stand with the bowl of food, puppy is told to sit until I put the bowl down and then I tell him when to eat. Period. No choice from day one. I would never ever hit a puppy, they are too young to understand hitting, but they are not to young to understand "I am the boss and will dictate to you" I do not hand feed a dog at all. Either the dog eats the way I allow him to eat or he can do without food until he does .
If you puppy was growling at 8 weeks old, he was big enough to take that food and make he deal with losing the food. An 8 week old puppy is not big enough to fight back. Take the food away and make him sit and wait until you tell him it is okay to go to the food. Take it away again and do it over and over again. You said he was growling from the day you brought him home. You did try something and it didn't work, so what, you let it go because it worked on one dog but not another? 
I'm sorry but if an 8 week old puppy would not let you take away a dish of food, then he was either raised with no socializing with people or has some severe temperament issues.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

If someone is afraid of an 8 week old, wonder what happens with a 6 mo or worse a 12 mo?


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Doing nothing is obviously not the solution - and I'm not saying anyone suggested doing nothing. Just making sure it's not considered a solution. 

Seeking advice from a professional is super good advice but I would make sure they understand how to deal with dominance based and fear based aggression. I'm thinking they are not dealt with exactly the same. Getting it wrong could exacerbate the problem.

Good luck!


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

clearly you have misunderstood. I never let the dog keep eating, I have never had a problem taking the food away and still today the sits and waits for his dinner, I put it down and if I say out or stop then he backs off and stops eating. This is what I have done with him from the beginning. The problem is that he always has his guard up. I can take the food away along with anything else and I am not worried about him winning or being stronger than me. The problem is trying to make him relax when he eats so that it doesn't escalate. I know how to deal with him and I have no problem but if something were to happen to me, I don't want him to become aggressive to anyone else.
I did not give up on training on the contrary. I have stuck with it. I have no fear whatsoever of my dogs. I never have. You have actually answered my question though. I do not normally handfeed it's just that recently I have heard a lot of people suggest this as a way of stopping the aggressive behaviour during meal times. 

Thank you for the advice and of course I am happy with the posts if you are being constructive rather than just critical.


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

*Update*

Just wanted to give a quick update and thank everyone for the advice you gave.
Ketchup has shown a lot of improvement over the past month. We have been bring people around the house quite frequently but in small numbers and allowing Ketchup to take his time approaching them. He has become a lot more comfortable with people. He is still biting but it is in an attempt to play so having him sit and be calm stops this and then he is rewarded with a toy that people can throw for him.
In regards to the food we have finally found something that seems to be working. He watches me fill his dish and then has to go sit out of the way while I put it down. He can only eat once I've said ok and when I say stop he has to stop and leave the dish. This is working well and he listens every time. On occasion he is still tense when eating but he is becomming more comfortable with this as he has it in a small space where I think he feels more comfortable. Most important is that he listens to the commands and I know I can take away his food at any point.
Thanks again everyone.

* Just wanted to add that Ketchup is 10 and a half months old now


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

rgollar said:


> I got some advice on another issue here and they said to read a book by Jan Fennell Called " The Dog Listerner". And she talks how to deal with this situation. I tell you its the best book I ever read. I have tried her ways to deal with other things and it work so amazingly and right away. It talks about how to establish yourself as the leader not the dog. Just a suggestion hope all works for you and your dog.


I REALLY REALLY REALLY agree that reading this book and working thru it behaviorily the way she suggests will make a good start. This is NOT about obedience, it's about 'dog' stuff and how to think like a dog to help.

dog behaviour, dog obedience, dog trainers, puppy training, dog rescue assistance, canine behaviour, canine obedience by Jan Fennell the Dog Listener Amichien Bonding

Jan Fennell The Dog Listener - Dogs with Behavioural Problems


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## khamilton (Jan 31, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I REALLY REALLY REALLY agree that reading this book and working thru it behaviorily the way she suggests will make a good start. This is NOT about obedience, it's about 'dog' stuff and how to think like a dog to help.
> 
> dog behaviour, dog obedience, dog trainers, puppy training, dog rescue assistance, canine behaviour, canine obedience by Jan Fennell the Dog Listener Amichien Bonding
> 
> Jan Fennell The Dog Listener - Dogs with Behavioural Problems


 
Thanks for the advice. I read the book and it was great. She definitely helps you to understand dog behaviour and following her advice has made a big difference in the way Ketchup responds to me.


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