# Bloodlines and "the split"



## Emoore

I've been thinking a lot lately about how there are essentially three different sub-breeds of German Shepherds, and then the ugly step-sister fourth breed that none of us really want to talk about but makes up the bulk of GSDs in the States.

Whenever a new person comes on the forums looking for a puppy, the first thing they're asked is what lines they're looking for. In reality, they just know they want a German Shepherd and the picture they have in their head probably isn't a sable, drivey working line, a $2500 highline with a roached back, or a sloped-back American show dog. The dog in their head probably looks like a "pet" type Shepherd.

So I guess the topic for discussion is this: Do you agree with the 3-way (or 4-way) split? Do you wish there were just one type of GSD? If so, what would it be like? One of the existing ones or a combination? 

Also, is it possible for someone to be an ethical, reputable, high-quality breeder of "pet lines" GSDs?


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## selzer

I do not know that it really makes sense to go for unity in the breed. I do not think the specialty-showline breeders will ever work toward German show or working line in structure or temperament. Some will get CDs and CDXs on their dogs. Some will doing herding trials with their dogs, most will not go anywhere near Schutzhund. 

And really, why should they. If they managed to schutzhund title their dog, the working line people would just acuse them of buying their title, or doing it at a midnight show. 

No first place ribbons were awarded at the nationals this year in the puppy classes due to temperament, but I am not hearing anyone applauding that. 

The all-breed shows, where German showlines might do ok in, well I do not see them moving toward the specialty dogs at all. I mean, everyone suggests they have such grusome back ends, and spookiness, why would they. They think their dogs are awesome just the way they are. What happens when you mix a roach back GSL to a ski slope AB? One and the other and everything in between, and possibly extremes on both ends. Can you imagine a pronounced break into a ski slope???

So now lets go with the working line dogs, and their flatter top lines, smaller compact size. It is nothing the specialty dogs would ever want to breed with, and they would be hard pressed to manage the added drive. 

A working line dog with a V-rating and a manageable/proper amount of energy and drive might be incorporated into the all breed show line dogs, or German show line dogs in America. But those of us with GSLs believe we have the perfect dog just as they are, why would we WANT to incorportate the working lines into our lines? 

Working lines people think their dogs are the best/most proper sheps out there. What would combining showline dogs, or specialty dogs in their lines do for them? How would it improve what they are doing? 

I think there are good specialty dogs out there that are not extreme and have good temperament.
Of course, I think there are awesome GSL dogs out there with great temperament.
And I think there are great working line dogs out there with good temperament and drives for what they are using them for. 

Combing them into one shepherd type would not give us the best of all worlds. I think it is far more likely to give us the worst. And it would, most likely then resemble the pet dogs from BYBs.


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## sagelfn

Emoore said:


> I've been thinking a lot lately about how there are essentially three different sub-breeds of German Shepherds, and then the ugly step-sister fourth breed that none of us really want to talk about but makes up the bulk of GSDs in the States.


For noobs reading this who don't know what types you're speaking of I'll assume Working, West German Showline, American Showline, and Pet/BYB



> So I guess the topic for discussion is this: Do you agree with the 3-way (or 4-way) split? Do you wish there were just one type of GSD? If so, what would it be like? One of the existing ones or a combination?


No, I do not agree with there being so many different types of GSDs that we have. If structure were all that was different then maybe I would be on the fence but there is a vast difference in each types temperament (for the sake of not typing so much I'm talking not only nerves but energy and drives) and that is what I have a problem with. I do not think that the temperament of what the GSD should be is debateable. I feel the closest to what the correct GSD should be temperament wise is the working lines. I do like variation of the different types of working lines because there are different jobs and you'll need different traits. You will still have at the core what a GSD should be. 

I feel like there is another difference between West German SL in Germany and in America. I haven't found many breeders here in the states that are working their SL dogs. I know there is debate about certain German dogs getting their titles fairly as well, but I do see a difference between most not all of the two types. The American SL that I've seen are the furthest from the standard that I can think of. The BYB/Pet lines could at least mix with strong working line history and be close to correct in terms of temperament. 

I think the most correct type is the WL. I think the other types that lack in terms of temperament are created to fit what people want because they like the looks of the GSD and the assumption of what a GSD is capable of without care of whether or not the breed fits their lifestyle. So they change the breed to fit with what sells. Not okay.



> Also, is it possible for someone to be an ethical, reputable, high-quality breeder of "pet lines" GSDs?


No. Even if they did all the health testing and got some titles and did everything right (contracts, screening, etc..) They are not breeding dogs that represent what the GSD should be. They are not trying to create those dogs. If the dog has great temperament it should not be bred if its say 130lbs and 30".


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## selzer

I think German Showlines have the proper temperament. I believe that the energy and drive of the German showline dogs is certainly high enough for whatever type of assignment one can give it. They are successful as police dogs, military dogs, search and rescue dogs, and cadaver dogs. Beyond that why?

In Farmer Boy, the father is admiring a draft horse, saying it could pull a barn. The kid says, why, the Morgan is fast enough to drive with the buggy and strong enough to pull the plow. The father tells him he is right. No need to pull a barn and why feed all that muscle.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> I think German Showlines have the proper temperament. I believe that the energy and drive of the German showline dogs is certainly high enough for whatever type of assignment one can give it. They are successful as police dogs, military dogs, search and rescue dogs, and cadaver dogs. Beyond that why?
> 
> In Farmer Boy, the father is admiring a draft horse, saying it could pull a barn. The kid says, why, the Morgan is fast enough to drive with the buggy and strong enough to pull the plow. The father tells him he is right. No need to pull a barn and why feed all that muscle.


I have yet to see a German Showline dog doing police work over here. :help:
I have yet to see a German Showline dog being used as a military dog over here. 

You just don't see them in the working areas, over here. Not even a lot in search and rescue. Maybe in the States, but not over here. It's very rare to see a showline dog in the working areas. Not impossible but rare.


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## selzer

My friend only breeds German Showlines. She has several police dogs out there, a cadaver dog, a SAR dog, and she had one of her dogs used in combat as a war dog.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> My friend only breeds German Showlines. She has several police dogs out there, a cadaver dog, a SAR dog, and she had one of her dogs used in combat as a war dog.


That's cool. I admire that there are Showline breeders out there that also focus on the working part. It's just that you don't see it very often. 

What kennel is it?


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## KZoppa

i actually like the split between lines. For those who actually do the research i believe it helps knowing what lines you're looking for. Some lines are easier to handle than others are especially for a first time owner. Our showline girl right now bores me out of my mind. She doesnt have "it". The "it" that makes me love the breed. She is LAZY and difficult simply because she's unmotivated. She's sweet but she doesnt have the personality i enjoy from the breed. She's a dog i would recommend for a first time owner. I prefer the working lines.


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## Jessiewessie99

I like the split in the breed. It gives people a choice on what kind of dog they want. Like KZoopa said, some are easier to handle than others. Everyone likes something different in a GSD. I like how breeders of a certain line try to get their dogs to excel in many things such as schutzhund, the show ring, SAR, police work etc. Some better than others. But its good to know that there is a breed of dog that is great many things can come in many varieties. There seems to be something for everyone.


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## Whiteshepherds

Emoore said:


> Do you agree with the 3-way (or 4-way) split? Do you wish there were just one type of GSD? If so, what would it be like? One of the existing ones or a combination?


The divide is so wide I don't think you're ever going to see the different types come back together but it would be nice if they got a little closer in type. Here's one change I liked to see:

*Show lines:*
Personally I don't believe a dog should be allowed to be shown in the conformation ring after the age of 4 unless it has some obedience and performance titles. The standard means nothing if the whole dog isn't tested. 

Part of the breed standard: _The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose._

Running a dog around the ring doesn't test it's ability for *arduous work,* it's not even close. At least show us that the dog can do "something" besides work the show ring. I know there are great SL breeders who do work their dogs, but I'd like to see it more.

Oh, if this is a wish list could we also please make the roached backs go away forever?


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## Katey

I think the multiple variations of the breed are here to stay, but I do feel that the issue with having different "types" of German Shepherd is that it does corrupt the ideal of the breed. Now, I'm biased towards the working line dogs, but when I look at the development of the breed, I see that the founders sought to create a breed distinctly capable of working a number of jobs, from military and protection to search and rescue and herding. Some "types" put the form of the dog before his function, and that makes me skeptical of the quality of the bloodlines.

That being said, I don't mean to critique the quality of the individual dogs that belong to each "type" -- surely, there are wonderful companions in each category -- but just question whether or not some "types" fulfill the true purpose of the GSD. 

To me, at least, there is something so poetic and _right_ than for an animal to be doing what he was made for. Working lines for me, all the way!


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## GSDElsa

I have a question, which I don't think I've ever fully seen answered: Why is it that the GSL's went to the "roach backs" and why is it that the ASL's went to the "ski slope" back ends? 

I've seen debate over if it's good or not a million times and which one is the "true" GSD. But I have never seen anyone give a good, solid answer for the purpose of going in that direction with the breed other than some aesthetic reason. There really is no arguing that the old black and white photos for GSD's from the turn of the century into WWII look absolutely nothing like ASL or WGWL's today. 

I have no problem with slight changes in a breed and a split if there is a genuine PURPOSE to the split. As I have always seen it, it was just because ASL breeder #1 decided that he liked dogs who's butts were skimming the ground and WGSL breeder #2 liked it to look like his dog was always stretching its back. 

Does anyone have a real, TRUE answer on that question?


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## Samba

The true GSD is likely to be more difficult to find due to the split. I don't really like the split in the breed because it has lead to the loss of what once was fairly consistent in the German Shepherds. Now we have different breeds almost. 

I believe the structural extremes that have occurred in the showlines are often driven by the desire to create a more extreme gait. I know that was the reason for the extremity in the ASLs. Fortunately, that extremity is much less seen in the ring now and dogs with incorrectness in the rear are usually penalized. That was not the case in years before so the pendulum has begun to swing. When I am at a show I don't see a bunch of wobble hocks or extreme dogs like I used to. I know moderate is a relative word, they are more moderate in structure. Often, in exhibition of any kind, the extreme is reached before sanity can be sought. 

As far as the WGSL, they must also have a reason for the back. I would bet the reasoning is more than aesthetic though like the ASL and the extreme they once exhibited, it may be over done and flawed.


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## Mrs.K

I believe that the true Shepherd is the one that is closest to the one back then, which to me is clearly the working line Shepherd, they are not that much different from the dogs in 1936.

Actually AbbyK9 has posted pictures from military working dogs, some of them are from WWII and WWI and if you look at those pics there really isn't much of a difference to todays working line Shepherd so to me it's the true Shepherd. But that is my personal opinion.


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## Samba

I would agree and so would many others as far as the looks. When I read the standard, I think that many working line dogs conform to it better than lots of dogs whose main purpose is to be judged against that standard! Exhibition in the show ring can lead to extremes as can exhibition in sports.


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## Uniballer

Emoore said:


> Also, is it possible for someone to be an ethical, reputable, high-quality breeder of "pet lines" GSDs?


I think so. Isn't this exactly what the German show line breeders are doing? And every now and then they throw one that can work. Bonus!



Whiteshepherds said:


> Personally I don't believe a dog should be allowed to be shown in the conformation ring after the age of 4 unless it has some obedience and performance titles. The standard means nothing if the whole dog isn't tested.


Again, the German show people are there. Can't show past 2 without a working title (e.g. SchH or HGH), and must have the breed survey to V in conformation after 3-1/2.


As an aside, remember that there used to be much more distinction between the West German working lines and the DDR and Czech lines than there is now (at least here in the USA). My own dog has lines to Grief Lahntal, Falk Berkelau, Lord Gleisdreieck, Cordon An Sat. So perhaps these lines are moving closer together.


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## Rerun

I'll be in the minority and say I like the differences. I think there are still similarities among all the different "types" and it's nice that more people can get involved with this breed and still have the ideal dog. I think it makes it tough on one hand, because people assume they are all the same, buy one, and then find they didn't get the right "type" and it doesn't fit into their lives as well as another type would have (most likely). There are certainly dogs from even the same litters that have completely different temperaments and different drive, but by and large you can expect that a DDR dog is going to be higher drive, higher exercise requirements, and likely a more naturally dominate outgoing type A personality vs an american showline which is probably going to be more nervy, lower drive, and softer temperament overall.

I think each "type" brings something to the table. Do I think they should be mixed to create "one" type. NO. I think it can be beneficial to selectively cross certain types to create a better dog for a specific purpose, but you run a risk of getting the worst of everything. Just because you cross two types doesn't mean you'll get the best of both worlds. As someone pointed out, you could get a roached back, nervy temperment, high drive (yikes, can you say reactive dog in the making) and ski sloped back. No thanks!

There are differences in most breeds. If you really look hard at other breeds, many of them have just as many problems as the shepherd does and there are different "types" as well. Most of them as people who prefer a certain type and argue that that type was what was originally created, but really what does it matter what was originally created when you can make it better through selective breeding? Nothing is perfect when it's originally created. I think it's a bit odd that so many people assume that because one person created a breed, it was perfect from the getgo and we should never change or alter it in any way. Would he want to see the dog he created trotting around a show arena in America with its butt dragging the ground and a nervy temperament? probably not. Would he complain about the german showline? Maybe not. 

There will never be any resolution to this kind of debate. Each person will defend their type and say it's the correct type, and the working line folks will always fall back on what the breed originally was when it was created. I personally vote for the working lines, but for the average pet owner they just aren't suitable, and I don't believe there is anything wrong with creating a softer easier dog to handle for people who still wish to have a GSD but can't handle the "real deal." There will always be breeders to continue the working lines, so for those that want them why is there a fuss? There are plently of places to get any type that anyone could possibly want.


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## cliffson1

Many people here speak like the split in the SL type and WL type has to be because they can't be combined in one. The breed used to be all in one. That was when the German Shepherd was bred to be what it is supposed to be. 
The people who want different types are detrimental to the breed in my opinion. I don't believe in different types and don't breed for certain types. I breed German Shepherds, period. The types today are the result of peoples likes, peoples lack of knowledge, and peoples egos. Since that is not going to change....then the types will remain. My dogs can do anything that the standard says they should be able to do. My dogs are not bred to conform to peoples opinion of what the breed should be or else why have a breed description. The dogs before the split were correct, and the resulting tangents that have grown are new creations. When people give credence to venues that make Champions at 11 months of age, or only reward dogs of a distinct color pattern, or base breeding decisions on a dog's grips or long bite....then you see these types proliferate out of ignorance. JMO


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## mayhemkb

I know I am a newbie. I can clearly see the differences in WGSL, ASL, Pet, and WL GSD's. The differences are more than structural-there is a mental variation in the dogs as well. Each of these 4 subsets comes from different priorities on the breeders/enthusiasts end creating specialization in form or another. Each of the subsets has its own strengths and weaknesses. I personally am against any type of breed split because of my own personal predjudices about limiting of genetic material in any closed stud book type registry and creating further genetic bottleneck in a breed already riddled by health issues. HOWEVER I cannnot see any way to bring the breed back to a homogenous blend of every line from where it is because of the specialization each branch has worked towards. Balance is a hard thing to find amongst hardcore specialized enthusiasts no matter what the passion may be.

So does the breed limit its genetic material by excluding each branch in favor of its own preference? Does the breed continue on in the distinctly fragmented manner it currently does with different standards and preferences for each branch? Does the breed as a whole scrap itself and start anew (as a whole or as each subset)? Do they then open the stud book for unregistered dogs to bring in new genetic material? I cannot see a good answer to this quandry or one that woud satisfy a large portion of the enthusiast/breeders. Is the problem a breed registry-or an all breed registry? Is it in the enthusiasts and the breeders themselves? Is it just because dogs as a whole have a totally different function in society, even within their own niche where they are doing the job they were bred for but the job itself has changed leaving the dog/breed obsolete? I see this quandry in all dog breeds, and in many domesticated livestock/beast of burden breeds out there right now as well. Just take a peak into the horse world and the different breeds/types. Think draft horses. Think Carriage horse breeds.

These are such interesting topics to watch and see opinions on. I love it. (Creeping back into obscurity to watch and read. . .)


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## Xeph

> I am not hearing anyone applauding that.


Actually, several people did, but you won't find them on this board. It also wasn't a puppy class. It was Novice.

BTW, I can say that I don't like the split. I cannot get EVERYTHING I want in one dog. A dog I can work and show successfully. I get one or the other, and it's very frustrating.

I WOULD go to a working line dog with excellent conformation if anybody would breed to my bitch...but they won't!

I have a lot of big plans for the puppy I have now, but adding some of the things I want is going to be extremely difficult, because the dogs I want to breed to aren't reachable, due to biases on either side.


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## Doc

I miss Vol of Long Worth ...

and Bern, and Bodo, and Odin, and Mark, and Troll, and Mutz, and the dogs from Rocky Reach and San Miguel ...


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## Whiteshepherds

GSDElsa said:


> I have a question, which I don't think I've ever fully seen answered: Why is it that the GSL's went to the "roach backs" and why is it that the ASL's went to the "ski slope" back ends?


Honestly, I think you're right, it was all about aesthetics.
*A stacked GSD is pretty sharp looking....Let's make this dog look like he's stacked all the time.* It happened gradually and as the dogs with the sloped backs starting winning in conformation, things were taken to an extreme. 

So now what? Now those same breeders have to defend the slope and the way they do that is to say the dogs are more agile, have better movement etc. Whether that's true or not (I don't think it is) I don't believe these breeders had function in mind when it all started.


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## W.Oliver

Doc said:


> I miss Vol of Long Worth ...
> 
> and Bern, and Bodo, and Odin, and Mark, and Troll, and Mutz, and the dogs from Rocky Reach and San Miguel ...


Did all those dog hold traditional working titles in herding or shcutzhund?

I think it would be ideal if this thread backed-up a step, and asked if folks believe GSDs should hold working titles to qualify for breeding?


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## Emoore

W.Oliver said:


> I think it would be ideal if this thread backed-up a step, and asked if folks believe GSDs should hold working titles to qualify for breeding?


I think so, yes; but not necessarily only SchH.


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## mayhemkb

W.Oliver said:


> Did all those dog hold traditional working titles in herding or shcutzhund?
> 
> I think it would be ideal if this thread backed-up a step, and asked if folks believe GSDs should hold working titles to qualify for breeding?


Yes-*BUT*-Not in the state working titles are in today. I honestly believe that the system for working titles has to be unified for this to work especially if were are working away from splintering the breed. Right now there are so many differnt ways to get variations of working titles behind a dogs name that are sponsored by the subsets that I feel they are all far from impartial. I also believe that there should be working titles for many variations of "work" under one new organization (i.e. Herding, Schutzhund, SAR work, individual breakouts of the Schutzhund triumverate, even agility and service dogs.) Logistically that appears to be an impossibilty to put together in real life (or the thought is so large I would have no idea where to begin.) 

However if the goal is to work towards splintering the breed and becoming 3-4 different GSD breeds then the current system may work for each branch.


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## holland

I think titles are important but I think the dog is more important


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## Mrs.K

holland said:


> I think titles are important but I think the dog is more important


Isn't that what the RSV 2000 is doing? You can breed an untitled dog with a titled dog if I am not mistaken.


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## Andaka

As a long time breeder and lover of the American Show Lines I feel the need to point out that even in my subset there are two different camps -- the all-breed dog and the specialty dog. As the economy tightens, the differences between the two are beginning to narrow. It is more expensive to drive long distances to the specialty shows, so more exhibitors are going to the all-breed ring to show their dogs, resulting in a more moderate dog showing up in the specialty ring. 

The dog I am showing now is 3/4 American/Canadian show lines and 1/4 East German working lines. He has points toward his champoinship, and has defeated ASL dogs in the classes. So is it impossible to combine? Maybe -- and maybe not. I'm not so sure after living with this one.


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## Chris Wild

Mrs.K said:


> Isn't that what the RSV 2000 is doing? You can breed an untitled dog with a titled dog if I am not mistaken.


 
Sort of. But they have instituted a series of breed tests that a dog must go through. These are not training titles, but rather basic tests of the different aspects of working temperament designed to test the dog moreso than the training, and are performed by an impartial, qualified evaluator. Not unlike the BST programs in place in many other breeds.

After passing those, a dog is allowed a certain number of breedings. The dog can then "earn" more breedings both through it's own individual accomplishments later on in the form of titles, and also through the accomplishments of it's offspring in terms of how they score on the tests, titles earned by offspring, etc....


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## Uniballer

holland said:


> I think titles are important but I think the dog is more important


Me too. Just because a dog has a SchH3 title doesn't mean it should be bred. But I do consider a real working title a prerequisite to breeding. And I have no problem with the idea that you also need a conformation rating of at least "G", hips and elbows certified, an AD, etc. While it is certainly harder to get all that done here in the USA than it is in Germany, it isn't that difficult (and it would weed out a lot of people & dogs that probably shouldn't be breeding).


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## mayhemkb

Andaka said:


> As a long time breeder and lover of the American Show Lines I feel the need to point out that even in my subset there are two different camps -- the all-breed dog and the specialty dog. As the economy tightens, the differences between the two are beginning to narrow. It is more expensive to drive long distances to the specialty shows, so more exhibitors are going to the all-breed ring to show their dogs, resulting in a more moderate dog showing up in the specialty ring.


You are correct. There are subsets to each of the subsets made note of. That makes this whole thing even more difficult to unify get consensus on.


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## Samba

It is the way Daphne describes in the showing. As I look at my show puppy I hope she can be moderate enough to show in both specialty and all-breed as that would certainly be easier and less expensive. This and other pressures are resulting in more moderation in the show breedings. There is pressure to breed functional dogs and the freak show nature of the specialty is just not what it once was. 

I am sure one can combine the lines of working and show. Dogs don't know they are from "lines". My little show girl goes back in not too terribly many generations to working line dogs on the sire side. Her breeder started with the working dogs and bred with am lines. When some of that was going the split was less dramatic... with the return of more correctness, then I can see the ability to succeed with such combinations. 

To return to one dog, I am afraid that ship has probably sailed. I now have to always clarify with people when they are talking about a "German Shepherd" as to just what they mean by that.


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## Whiteshepherds

Chris Wild said:


> After passing those, a dog is allowed a certain number of breedings. The dog can then "earn" more breedings both through it's own individual accomplishments later on in the form of titles, and also through the accomplishments of it's offspring in terms of how they score on the tests, titles earned by offspring, etc....


This makes perfect sense. :thumbup:


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## nikkiscriv

So, this thread was really exciting for me to read because I am still a newbie, and before I purchased my GSD I was very confused at all the conflicting information regarding the different 'types' of German Shepherds. I am a little disappointed the thread ended up more of a discussion of which type is the most "correct" compared to the original breed. I was hoping that this thread would be breaking down the different characteristics based on each type so that people who do decide they want a GSD can make a more educated decision about which type would be best for them.

Such things I was thinking would be helpful to include are energy level, drive, level of affection, ability to do well with children/small animals, etc. I know this would be a generalization since each dog is different, but it would at least be a starting point. 

For me, personally, I have no intentions of ever doing Schutzhund, SAR, herding etc. so for me, the question of "which type is best" would have nothing do with with their ability to become a SCH3 titled dog. I would want a dog who I could do obedience and agility with, but I think most any GSD has the intelligence and willingness to do these types of sports. 

Now, I know many people on this board are dedicated showers/breeders/handlers/trainers, etc. who have a lot of knowledge and feel that the GSD should have a working purpose, and not just be a pet.

My question to you is: Is it wrong for someone who does not want to pursue Schutzhund, SAR, herding etc. but still wants a well bred GSD who is an outstanding example of the breed and has the desired personality? Very few dog breeds were originally bred to be companions - most that own Golden Retrievers don't use them to retrieve ducks and most Border Collies don't herd sheep daily. 

Even the breeders who do want their dogs to go to working homes still have to place a large number of pups over time to non-working homes. I would think the breeders would still want the "pet" owners to know what they are looking for, not just in the breed but in the type of breed. I think excellent breeders should want all of their puppies, working or not, to go to an owner who knows what they want, knows what they're getting into, and is ready for the responsibilities that come along with owning a GSD. 

Could those with expert knowledge of the different types break down some of the general characteristics of each type, not based solely on workability? (pros/cons type thing?) I think this would be really helpful for people who are trying to learn more information about what they want - before they go out and buy a highly driven working line dog who is way too much dog for them which could then ruin their ideas of the German Shepherd breed just because they didnt' get a good match for their lifestyle.


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## Liesje

> Is it wrong for someone who does not want to pursue Schutzhund, SAR, herding etc. but still wants a well bred GSD who is an outstanding example of the breed and has the desired personality?


Nikki I don't think it is wrong to want or have that as long as the dogs are not being "bred down" to suit those needs. Even when you look at working line dogs there are often several from each litter that go into homes as just pets or for obedience or agility or something not specific to the GSD breed.

The problem is when the GSDs have all traces of what the breed is supposed to be bred out of them to suit other peoples' desires.


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## Kris10

Excellent post Nikki! I think that there has been discussion on this board about the characteristics of each type here and there, but although we all have reasons for preferring our particular type of GSD we shouldn't insist on others going the same route when getting theirs. Should someone who states they "may" do schutzhund but want a companion for their family should be steered toward WLs?
Re: the OP I wonder if it is the same case with other breeds? Is this type of split common in other herding/working breeds?


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## sagelfn

Liesje said:


> Nikki I don't think it is wrong to want or have that as long as the dogs are not being "bred down" to suit those needs. Even when you look at working line dogs there are often several from each litter that go into homes as just pets or for obedience or agility or something not specific to the GSD breed.
> 
> The problem is when the GSDs have all traces of what the breed is supposed to be bred out of them to suit other peoples' desires.


:thumbup:

Nikki- there are some threads already about the differences between certain lines but I think it would be a good idea for you to ask your question in a new thread so that this one stays on topic.


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## Jessiewessie99

nikkiscriv said:


> So, this thread was really exciting for me to read because I am still a newbie, and before I purchased my GSD I was very confused at all the conflicting information regarding the different 'types' of German Shepherds. I am a little disappointed the thread ended up more of a discussion of which type is the most "correct" compared to the original breed. I was hoping that this thread would be breaking down the different characteristics based on each type so that people who do decide they want a GSD can make a more educated decision about which type would be best for them.
> 
> Such things I was thinking would be helpful to include are energy level, drive, level of affection, ability to do well with children/small animals, etc. I know this would be a generalization since each dog is different, but it would at least be a starting point.
> 
> For me, personally, I have no intentions of ever doing Schutzhund, SAR, herding etc. so for me, the question of "which type is best" would have nothing do with with their ability to become a SCH3 titled dog. I would want a dog who I could do obedience and agility with, but I think most any GSD has the intelligence and willingness to do these types of sports.
> 
> Now, I know many people on this board are dedicated showers/breeders/handlers/trainers, etc. who have a lot of knowledge and feel that the GSD should have a working purpose, and not just be a pet.
> 
> My question to you is: *Is it wrong for someone who does not want to pursue Schutzhund, SAR, herding etc. but still wants a well bred GSD who is an outstanding example of the breed and has the desired personality? *Very few dog breeds were originally bred to be companions - most that own Golden Retrievers don't use them to retrieve ducks and most Border Collies don't herd sheep daily.
> 
> Even the breeders who do want their dogs to go to working homes still have to place a large number of pups over time to non-working homes. I would think the breeders would still want the "pet" owners to know what they are looking for, not just in the breed but in the type of breed. I think excellent breeders should want all of their puppies, working or not, to go to an owner who knows what they want, knows what they're getting into, and is ready for the responsibilities that come along with owning a GSD.
> 
> Could those with expert knowledge of the different types break down some of the general characteristics of each type, not based solely on workability? (pros/cons type thing?) I think this would be really helpful for people who are trying to learn more information about what they want - before they go out and buy a highly driven working line dog who is way too much dog for them which could then ruin their ideas of the German Shepherd breed just because they didnt' get a good match for their lifestyle.



I was wondering the same things, especially the part I bolded. Making a new thread would be a great idea.


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## nikkiscriv

Thanks for the feedback and apologies for getting off topic. I've created a new thread for those who are interested. 
Carry on guys :toasting:


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## Emoore

I'm on the fence about the split in bloodlines myself. I think it's great to have the diversity to choose from, but hate the politics and animosity between the groups. I feel like everybody looks down their nose at everybody else. I also think it's odd that none of them really matches the public perception of the German Shepherd-- that of a black and tan, straight-backed, 90-100lb, easygoing family pet. "Olde Fashioned" indeed!


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## W.Oliver

How do the white GSD folks factor in? 

I think they have got a pretty nice thing going with UKC, and have their own world....
I don't think they give a what you do with those funky colors!


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## Ruthie

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I like the split in the breed. It gives people a choice on what kind of dog they want. Like KZoopa said, some are easier to handle than others. Everyone likes something different in a GSD. I like how breeders of a certain line try to get their dogs to excel in many things such as Schutzhund, the show ring, SAR, police work etc. Some better than others. But its good to know that there is a breed of dog that is great many things can come in many varieties. There seems to be something for everyone.


From every breed standard that I have read, and what little history I know, a GSD should NOT be something for everyone. A GSD is a working dog. He/she should have the character and drive to work. If a person doesn't like that or can't handle it, they should shop a different breed, not change it to suit their likes.

I find it odd that people are saying that they don't want to do SchH, herding, SAR...with their dog so it doesn't need to have have the temperament and drive to do them . IMO regardless of weather you do those things with your dog they SHOULD be able to. 

We had a GSD rescue that we LOVED and when he died, we (mostly DH) spent nearly a month researching what a GSD should be from any and every source her could find. I realize this makes him far from an expert, but we tried to find out what a GSD SHOULD be before we got Bison and didn't just go with what was convenient or cute or cheap. 

We wanted "just a pet" but 3 years later decided to give SchH a try. He was fine as a pet and if I was a better handler would probably be titled by now. We jumped right in to Rally and Agility because he is a good dog. 

My point is that just because you are going to "do" doesn't mean your dog doesn't need to be able to "do". So, no, I don't think there should be pet lines. I would also like to see working lines care a little more about looks and show lines care a little more about temperament and drive.


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## Jessiewessie99

Ruthie said:


> From every breed standard that I have read, and what little history I know, a GSD should NOT be something for everyone. A GSD is a working dog. He/she should have the character and drive to work. If a person doesn't like that or can't handle it, they should shop a different breed, not change it to suit their likes.
> 
> I find it odd that people are saying that they don't want to do SchH, herding, SAR...with their dog so it doesn't need to have have the temperament and drive to do them . IMO regardless of weather you do those things with your dog they SHOULD be able to.
> 
> We had a GSD rescue that we LOVED and when he died, we (mostly DH) spent nearly a month researching what a GSD should be from any and every source her could find. I realize this makes him far from an expert, but we tried to find out what a GSD SHOULD be before we got Bison and didn't just go with what was convenient or cute or cheap.
> 
> We wanted "just a pet" but 3 years later decided to give SchH a try. He was fine as a pet and if I was a better handler would probably be titled by now. We jumped right in to Rally and Agility because he is a good dog.
> 
> My point is that just because you are going to "do" doesn't mean your dog doesn't need to be able to "do". So, no, I don't think there should be pet lines. I would also like to see working lines care a little more about looks and show lines care a little more about temperament and drive.




I meant anyone who is serious about actually owning a GSD like if they are really interested in it. And I don't find it odd that people don't want to do Sch. Not every dog GSD will be a good at it and not everyone is interested in it. Also, some people do indeed want just a pet/companion, and they should be active homes.Someone who is able to keep the dog active(hiking, jogging, walking, biking, camping etc.). I think there are working line breeders who do well in the looks department(not all, but some), and there are show line breeders who do well in the temperament and drive department(not all, but some.)

If someone is very interested in learning and has done their HW on the breed, then yes there is more than likely something for them in the GSD breed if they are willing to take up the challenge. Especially if they are first time GSD owners, they can try the rescue route or possibly fostering.No matter if you like it or not, there will always be pet lines. I have 2 "pet lines", wouldn't trade them for the world.I like watching Schutzhund, but it isn't for me and I don't want to get involved in something that I won't be into. Yes, it should be a working breed, but it can also be a pet/companion too. Someone who is able to keep the dog active(hiking, jogging, walking, biking, camping etc.). 

I am not saying we should make them into the ultimate family pet(but to lump them into the ulitmate family pet, when I have met some that are NOT good with kids and other issues.). They should be a working breed, but they can also be a good family companion/pet at the same time.


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## Ruthie

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I meant anyone who is serious about actually owning a GSD like if they are really interested in it. And I don't find it odd that people don't want to do Sch. Not every dog GSD will be a good at it and not everyone is interested in it. Also, some people do indeed want just a pet/companion, and they should be active homes.Someone who is able to keep the dog active(hiking, jogging, walking, biking, camping etc.). I think there are working line breeders who do well in the looks department(not all, but some), and there are show line breeders who do well in the temperament and drive department(not all, but some.)
> 
> If someone is very interested in learning and has done their HW on the breed, then yes there is more than likely something for them in the GSD breed if they are willing to take up the challenge. Especially if they are first time GSD owners, they can try the rescue route or possibly fostering.No matter if you like it or not, there will always be pet lines. I have 2 "pet lines", wouldn't trade them for the world.I like watching Schutzhund, but it isn't for me and I don't want to get involved in something that I won't be into. Yes, it should be a working breed, but it can also be a pet/companion too. Someone who is able to keep the dog active(hiking, jogging, walking, biking, camping etc.).
> 
> I am not saying we should make them into the ultimate family pet(but to lump them into the ulitmate family pet, when I have met some that are NOT good with kids and other issues.). They should be a working breed, but they can also be a good family companion/pet at the same time.


I think you read my post wrong. I know SchH, hearding, SAR... is not for everyone. It is a lot of work and a huge time committment.

What I said was that people who do not want to do those things with their dog think they need a "lesser" dog. I think the idea of breeding "just a pet" that doesn't have the capabilities that a GSD should have is not right. As you stated, a dog who has the capablity to work (weather or not someone chooses that route) still makes a great family pet. 

To put it bluntly, there is no need to "dumb down" the breed so people can have couch potato pets. 

My statement about WL and SL breeders was not an absolute either it was just and "in general" and this is based on my limited and short time exposure in the GSD world. That is why I said it was IMO.


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## Whiteshepherds

W.Oliver said:


> How do the white GSD folks factor in?
> I think they have got a pretty nice thing going with UKC, and have their own world....I don't think they give a..... what you do with those *funky* colors!


They have their own problems but honestly, nothing like the _funky_  color breeders seem to have. At least not something you notice, who knows what goes on out of the public eye?
Whether they want breed separation or to be let back into the GSD breed standard, they have a common goals so they seem to be more united.


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## Jessiewessie99

Ruthie said:


> I think you read my post wrong. I know SchH, hearding, SAR... is not for everyone. It is a lot of work and a huge time committment.
> 
> What I said was that people who do not want to do those things with their dog think they need a "lesser" dog. I think the idea of breeding "just a pet" that doesn't have the capabilities that a GSD should have is not right. As you stated, a dog who has the capablity to work (weather or not someone chooses that route) still makes a great family pet.
> 
> To put it bluntly, there is no need to "dumb down" the breed so people can have couch potato pets.
> 
> My statement about WL and SL breeders was not an absolute either it was just and "in general" and this is based on my limited and short time exposure in the GSD world. That is why I said it was IMO.


Oh yes, I agree completely. Those are commitments, and no need to dumb down the breed. If the people want a couch potato dog, they need a Great Dane or Mastiff.But those breeds can be pretty active, but not as active as the GSD, but they are known to be a couch potatoes. I don't agree with the just breeding pets and having a couch potatoes(Usually that makes me think of a King Shepherd or a Shiloh Shepherd, which I think are a BIG NO NO.And should have not been made or continued.)


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## selzer

Ruthie, one of the pups out of Jenna's first litter is doing schutzhund. And seven of the pups I have kept out of my litters have been titled, most of the pups that I have sold have been pets. I KNOW they can be shown, they can be titled. Because I have done it. But most people are not going to do it. Even the ones that are buying the dog with the intention of doing so.

Even Rushie's crazy duo with that working line streak in them were able to manage titles. 

I think that for the most part though, people WANT dogs like K9s but should own stuffed animals. Should we water down the breed because people should not own high drive, high energy dogs? No, but it will not stop people from getting way too much dog for them.

My dogs are mostly German showlines, and I am hoping to go to all German showlines in the future. I like them. For me, they are the best lines. But I can see how other people might like the American Showline or the working lines better. 

It seems like the working line people just cannot stand to believe anything but that their lines of dogs are the only that should exist. Theirs are the best. Theirs are what Max envisioned. Theirs are the only ones that can work. Theirs are the only ones that should be bred. 

I really wonder, where did all the police dogs come from before the USSR was opened up, and all the DDR dogs and Czech dogs came on the scene? 

Why is it that NOW they are the only dogs that are "correct"? 

I think that a different type of owner goes for the working line dogs. Owners who are expecting dogs with high energy and high drives and are expecting to do a lot of training with the dogs. 

If these people were saddled with an American or German showline dog, if the handler was worth their salt, and the dog was not seriously flawed, they should be able to accomplish with them more than what the average showline owner does. If their attitude is oh, this is just a showline dog, they might let their attitude about the dog ruin their chances with the dog. 

But the split does allow for different owner types to get dogs that are more suited to them. I think that is great. People who want energizer bunnies can get them, people who want dogs that are more relaxed can get them.


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## sagelfn

Sage is a "pet line". I'm not exactly sure what he's made up of but I'm guessing some WL and ASL(any experts have a better idea I'm all ears). He has no off switch. He is ready to go all day long until its close to bedtime and only in the last 5-6 months due to routine and hopefully some maturity has he settled down at night. He needs at least 3hrs of serious exercise everyday. I train him about an hour a day (not all at once). If due to weather or illness I'm not able to give him what he needs he can get crazy, thank goodness for knuckle bones on those days. 

I work 4 10hr shifts. Sage gets 1-1 1/2 hr of play with some training before I go to work. I have someone come over while I'm at work to walk him and play for 1-2hrs. When I come home from work he gets another 1-2 hours of exercise and training. I have 3 days off a week and those days are generally fully devoted to him. If I have plans and he needs to be left home I make sure he's gotten plenty of exercise before and that I can give it to him when I come home. He's not a dog I can let into the backyard to play. He will sit at the door and wait for me. When we go to the dog park he wants to play with me not the other dogs.

Training is somewhat difficult. He his highly food/toy motivated but he gets bored easlily and will quit. I have to constantly change things up and be exciting to keep him motivated to work with me. As he is maturing though I am more confident in him. His temperament is not perfect by any stretch but what he does lack is certainly manageable.

No one understands how I can live with him because he's so much work just to keep happy. I actually love it. Somedays no not so much  When I was looking into getting a GSD I didn't know much about the particulars. I knew only the generals of they need lots of exercise, training, socialization, etc.. But had no clue on how much. I just knew that I would do what was necessary to make him happy. If you've seen pictures of him you can tell he's a happy goofy boy. My only plan for my "pet" was to get his CGC and maybe try agility came a little after I got him. Now I want to have him tested for SchH. I don't expect him to earn any titles if he is even suited for it but I plan on doing it with pup #2 so I'd like to learn firsthand about the sport before I get the pup. With Sage I'm going to do anything I can with him. As a first time dog owner I didn't know how FUN all this "work" was.

I'm sure other people who just wanted a family pet would not be happy with Sage. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore this dog. He's been a great first dog so far, but I know what he is and what he isn't. The things he has right have made me love this breed even more and the things he has wrong have made me more passionate about maintaining the breed. I will never recommend a dog like him to anyone. Just because it worked out for me doesn't mean that is the case for his littermates or dogs like him. I will only ever suggest breeders who strive for the correct GSD. I will only ever suggest the correct GSD or no GSD to people. I'm disappointed when people with GSDs that are not correct continue to say they won't spend X amount of money on just a pet and since their current dog is such a nice fit there's nothing wrong with getting another just like it.


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## sagelfn

:blush: see what happens when I'm at work late, I posted in the wrong "bloodlines" thread


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## Jessiewessie99

sagelfn said:


> Sage is a "pet line". I'm not exactly sure what he's made up of but I'm guessing some WL and ASL(any experts have a better idea I'm all ears). He has no off switch. He is ready to go all day long until its close to bedtime and only in the last 5-6 months due to routine and hopefully some maturity has he settled down at night. He needs at least 3hrs of serious exercise everyday. I train him about an hour a day (not all at once). If due to weather or illness I'm not able to give him what he needs he can get crazy, thank goodness for knuckle bones on those days.
> 
> I work 4 10hr shifts. Sage gets 1-1 1/2 hr of play with some training before I go to work. I have someone come over while I'm at work to walk him and play for 1-2hrs. When I come home from work he gets another 1-2 hours of exercise and training. I have 3 days off a week and those days are generally fully devoted to him. If I have plans and he needs to be left home I make sure he's gotten plenty of exercise before and that I can give it to him when I come home. He's not a dog I can let into the backyard to play. He will sit at the door and wait for me. When we go to the dog park he wants to play with me not the other dogs.
> 
> Training is somewhat difficult. He his highly food/toy motivated but he gets bored easlily and will quit. I have to constantly change things up and be exciting to keep him motivated to work with me. As he is maturing though I am more confident in him. His temperament is not perfect by any stretch but what he does lack is certainly manageable.
> 
> No one understands how I can live with him because he's so much work just to keep happy. I actually love it. Somedays no not so much  When I was looking into getting a GSD I didn't know much about the particulars. I knew only the generals of they need lots of exercise, training, socialization, etc.. But had no clue on how much. I just knew that I would do what was necessary to make him happy. If you've seen pictures of him you can tell he's a happy goofy boy. My only plan for my "pet" was to get his CGC and maybe try agility came a little after I got him. Now I want to have him tested for SchH. I don't expect him to earn any titles if he is even suited for it but I plan on doing it with pup #2 so I'd like to learn firsthand about the sport before I get the pup. With Sage I'm going to do anything I can with him. As a first time dog owner I didn't know how FUN all this "work" was.
> 
> I'm sure other people who just wanted a family pet would not be happy with Sage. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore this dog. He's been a great first dog so far, but I know what he is and what he isn't. The things he has right have made me love this breed even more and the things he has wrong have made me more passionate about maintaining the breed. I will never recommend a dog like him to anyone. Just because it worked out for me doesn't mean that is the case for his littermates or dogs like him. I will only ever suggest breeders who strive for the correct GSD. I will only ever suggest the correct GSD or no GSD to people. I'm disappointed when people with GSDs that are not correct continue to say they won't spend X amount of money on just a pet and *since their current dog is such a nice fit there's nothing wrong with getting another just like it.*



And chances are there isn't another dog like their current dog. 

I have my 2 pet lines, 1 probably hs working line there somewhere. I wouldn't trade either. Molly has more energy than Tanner, but Tanner has his moments. But maybe a dog that is a mixture of the 2 would be nice, with a good on and off switch, great temp, good drives, and many other factors that I can't think of at the moment.

I think when getting a GSD(if thats what someone is dead set on owning.) then they need to take their lifestyle into consideration.


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## JakodaCD OA

I rather think it can be said for the majority that if one has working lines, they are die hard working line people, if they have show lines they are die hard show line people. You'll find that with most breeds of dogs.

I think we all have our preferences, mine is working line. BUT, I can appreciate a nice dog no matter if it's green, purple or was born on the moon. 

The best dog I ever had was out of an east german sire/american show line dam. 

Do I agree with the 'split',,ya know like I said, it's happened with all breeds of dogs, they will never come together.


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## Liesje

Three things that always come to my mind with threads like these...

1. I don't know why there's this idea that working line folk don't care about conformation. There are plenty of working line breeder with dogs that not only are the correct proportion and are very athletic and agile, but are also very aesthetically pleasing and meet the breed standard. Lots of WL breeders Koer their dogs (which requires a show rating) or own dogs that would easily Koer if they chose to. Lately it seems the WL dogs have better ZW scores as well.

2. I think a big reason for the split are peoples' ideas about what constitutes real work and a dog being trained and tested for what the breed should be able to do. For some people, a RE and a CGC = a dog that is sound and can work. For other people, not even having a SchH3 title means the dog is sound and can work.

3. Please do not confuse nonstop energy and hyperactivity with an overabundance of drive. Just because a dog can run circles around you all day does not mean it is "high drive". There's a difference between having good stamina and a good balance of drives, and being neurotic. I often see people here "cautioning" others about working lines because of this idea that they are out of control, often people who haven't ever really lived with one or trained one.


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## Chris Wild

selzer said:


> I really wonder, where did all the police dogs come from before the USSR was opened up, and all the DDR dogs and Czech dogs came on the scene?
> 
> Why is it that NOW they are the only dogs that are "correct"?


Um, you do realize that Czech and DDR dogs, while classified as working lines are only subsets of working lines? The western European "working" lines were the original post split working lines. They existed before the Iron Curtain led to certain subsets developing, while those certain subsets developed, and of course now after those subsets are widely available and being integrated back in. The development of working lines in general had nothing to do with the USSR.

In the pre-split days, all those police K9s were GSDs, just like every other GSD was a GSD. Post-split, the vast majority of dogs doing this work are working lines because that is where the majority of dogs who are capable of the work will be found.

As to the split, to a certain degree it has always existed. Back in Max day there were those who preferred show dogs and those who preferred working dogs, but by and large the dogs were capable of both. They might have more strength in one area over the other, but it was the preferences of the owners that really influenced what the dogs participated in not because they were incapable of doing something else. But with time, those preferences led to a huge change in the dogs themselves as we all know.

I don't like the split. I wish it didn't exist. I wish every GSD was a GSD who looked like a GSD, acted like a GSD, moved like a GSD and worked like a GSD, and the differences from one dog to another were merely matters of degree and not so vast that physically and mentally they might as well be 3 or 4 different breeds altogether. But I also think there is no going back now, the gulf between the types is far too wide both in the minds of the fanciers of each type and in the genetic makeup of the dogs of each type, and the split is here to stay.


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## Emoore

Chris Wild said:


> I don't like the split. I wish it didn't exist. I wish every GSD was a GSD who looked like a GSD, acted like a GSD, moved like a GSD and worked like a GSD,


Yeah, but which one? Or a combination of all of them?


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## Chris Wild

Emoore said:


> Yeah, but which one? Or a combination of all of them?


That of course is the question. 

I don't believe any of the modern types are on the whole fully and truly correct and encompase all of what a GSD should be and nothing it shouldn't. Though some come much closer than others, and more resemble the dogs of bygone days before the split in both look and temperament whereas some have diverged so much they look and act nothing like what is correct for a GSD.

But of course, everyone thinks their type is the "right" type, and quite clearly given the vast differences between those types people are not on the same page with regard to what is correct for a GSD.

Edit to add: I think what Cliff said earlier (was that in this thread or the other one?) really hits the nail on the head though. People should be breeding GSDs. Not "show lines" or "working lines" or "pet lines" but GSDs. But for that to work, people need to understand what a GSD is and is not, should be and should not, and it seems far too many do not understand that and instead breed what they like even when it is worlds apart from what is correct for the GSD. Likewise, people buying a GSD need to see if a GSD is really the right dog for them, and if it's not get a different breed altogether, one that is a good fit, rather than get a facsimile of a GSD that doesn't resemble a GSD in anything but maybe physical appearance.


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## Samba

I think we will find our examples of dogs who are closest to the GSD as it once existed within working lines to a large degree. Working ability is harder to produce and keep than physical characteristics. I would think such a dog could result in some breedings of different lines if the right characteristics were sought though. There is a range always even within "correctness". 

I have seen some pretty good dogs in all lines and some pretty crappy ones in all too. If the dog is bred for soundness of mind and body, has a good brain, strong nerves and drives which serve a work purpose.... really who cares where it "comes" from? Now when breeding there is the question of the consistent production of those traits. 

I never understood the idea that we need to come up with a suggestion of a line to go to for a good pet. I don't believe in people's inalienable right to a pet suitable to their pet criteria from any breed they desire to own. I don't have a lot of sympathy or desire to please the "pet owners". I consider myself one of those in fact. It is certainly where I started and boy did I have to learn what the breed was about and how to step up to the ownership plate with them. All my dogs are still pets. I am not a dog professional by any stretch.


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## GSDElsa

selzer said:


> It seems like the working line people just cannot stand to believe anything but that their lines of dogs are the only that should exist. Theirs are the best. Theirs are what Max envisioned. Theirs are the only ones that can work. Theirs are the only ones that should be bred.
> 
> I really wonder, where did all the police dogs come from before the USSR was opened up, and all the DDR dogs and Czech dogs came on the scene?
> 
> Why is it that NOW they are the only dogs that are "correct"?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> What do you mean? Those dogs did exist before, they just got labels put on them based on who was breeding them?
> 
> And I'm still not getting the argument of toning the breed down to appeal to the average dog owner. Why does it have to be that way? Who really cares if the average dog owner who doesn't want to do any real training gets a GSD?
> 
> Another one of those arguments I've never fully understood. If you want to be lazy and do no work with your dog, get a mastiff or a bulldog. A breed shouldn't be altered in temperment because it suits the consumer. At least in my opinion.


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## Xeph

> I don't believe any of the modern types are on the whole fully and truly correct and encompase all of what a GSD should be and nothing it shouldn't.


This is one of the most honest and refreshing statements I've read in a long time.


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## cliffson1

Where did all the police dogs come from before the Czech and DDR became available? This question was posed in an earlier post....I don't know if it was to make a point or they honestly don't know. I will say if it was to make a point then they honestly don't know. I will tell you because I trained police and military dogs before these"workinglines" were available.
In America most of these police dogs came from American breeders, some long term American, while others were 2nd or 3rd generation American from Germany. Point for the American lines....BUT the American lines both long term and short term imports from Germany were bred for soundness first. There was not the effect of breeding 10 generations in a row on Lance of Fran-jo, or Sundance. What is the effect of constant backmassing on one or two dogs,(c'mon Biology 101), for 10 to 15 generations?????HINT....mental illness and health issues. Doesn't matter that you are breeding for gait, shoulder, length of stifle, or color. So if this science is correct, and the American show breeders in fact bred this way...then today's ASL would have a higher percent of temperament and health issues then should be for the breed. (I'll let you viewers figure out if this has occurred.) 
The point is that the American breeders prior to the availability of the Czech/DDR dogs bred a different DOG, then the American breeders of today, they bred a dog that could still do police and military work(like Rin Tin Tin and Bullet w/Roy Rogers):hug:. The American breeders of today are dealing with an extremely inbred backmassed dog that no longer has strengths in these traditional German Shepherd areas. Without this explanation for the newer people, it would be easy to infer that the American dogs of today were the same as the American dogs of the past....Wrong....Don't look alike and don't act alike in general. 
Sorry folks, just wanted to give an accurate answer to the question of where the police dogs came from before the Czech/DDR influx. 
Little tidbit for ya....if you look at the Czech/DDR dogs of today and look at the American lines of 50's 60', you will see a much close physical resemblance than you will American 50's and American today. If you examine the temperaments, you will also notice a closer resemblance to American 50's and Czech/DDR today than American 50's and American today. This really isn't hard to see what happened


----------



## Vandal

I started SchH in 1976 but I had GSDs as a kid, which was actually just a few years before that. When I started in SchH, I had an American line GSD, a Grandson of GV Yoncalla's Mike. That dog was quite the tracker and also really good in protection. He consistently took down the club helpers and created quite a bit of interest in the other club members who all had German WLs. I was asked for the pedigree and upon review, the interest went away. lol. That dog did become a Police dog after I retired him from SchH, in spite of that lack of interest in his pedigree.

Not much has changed in all these years, except that now, the German Show lines are looked upon the same way as the American lines were back then. Having said that, I can tell you there was already a "split" but maybe less people were aware of it. Most were not aware of the differences in the German blood lines. They just thought German was all good. Well, it really wasn't, however, working line people were not as upset by the presence of a Wienerau dog in their pedigrees as many are now. Mostly, that is because the SL breeders lost their minds and compounded that line so heavily in their dogs, they brought forth too much of what that line produced. Quanto Weinerau was not a bad dog. He had good character and produced it. Not over the top working ability, that is for sure, but he didn't hurt the pedigree if he was in there once or twice. Canto Weinerau, however, was heavily criticized and avoided by WL breeders . I remember that clearly and I would kind of turn up my nose if I saw a pedigree with Canto close in the line. Having said that, I did work dogs as the agitator who had him close in the pedigree, (grandsons etc), who were good dogs . One in my club competed very successfully at the Nationals and also at the WUSV. He usually scored very high in protection. The reason for that is in what I already said. Canto was in the pedigree ONCE and the other lines, ( working), back then were quite strong and were dogs who possessed more aggression than we see in many lines nowadays. Now there is more drive in the WL dogs and the aggression is not as clearly aimed in the right direction. Part of the protective instinct has been removed from all of the lines. IMO, the dogs had better character, ( and nerves), overall than the dogs we see now and yes, I am talking about working lines as well.

What seems to have happened concerning the SL dogs in the last ten years or so is , in a way, similar to what happened on Wall Street. Much the same way the regulators stopped regulating, the judges stopped judging . There was a period there of extreme permissiveness and people and breeders took advantage of that fact. Just like Wall Street, they used the situation to inflate their wallets, egos, whatever. Some of us objected but were shouted down by the people who tried to claim that was not happening at all. Some, especially here in the US, were simply ignorant of what the dogs are supposed to be as far as protection work goes and like I said, the rest just ignored it and took advantage. As a result, the show line dog took a rather severe nose dive as far as working ability was concerned and in structure as well. Seems like since the 90s the SL dog has been nothing short of a science project as far as how much the structure, temperament and color has "evolved". I have also noticed a couple of shifts in the way they do protection work . In the early 80s, the dogs mostly did protection well but if you were an agitator, you could see the more subtle differences in how the dogs handled pressure. They might get more hectic or slip a bit on the grip but mostly, they would hang in there. Later, I started to notice what seemed to be a complete lack of aggression in the dogs. Prey work was the only way to get them to grip and it was a grip, not a bite. Those were the dogs with pedigrees consisting on the Weinerau dogs and what was known as the Canto/Quanto cross, which was all the rage in Germany. The dogs who went back to Mutz von der Pelztierfarm or who showed lines with the Lierbergs would perform much better and back then, yes, the SL dogs had those dogs in the pedigree. For those who don't know, those two dog are found in the WLs now much more often than in the SLs. During the 90s, because the owner of the Weinerau Kennels became President of the SV, a huge majority of the dogs were bred using the Weinerau model and that is when things started to really go downhill. Mutz and the other lines that had supported the working ability , were pretty much excluded when breeding decisions were made and the results were not surprising. This continued up until recent times. Now, what I am noticing , is that more SL breeders are using lines that descend back to Mutz. What I see now are dogs who are showing more aggression but what is missing is the nerves and courage. I have worked a number of pups and young dogs out of SLs and what I see in them is that it is very easy to get them to bark, ( barking comes from a number of places including insecurity and aggression), but they hesitate to engage by biting. This can be somewhat overcome with some maturity but the ability to withstand pressure is lacking and the grip is very easily affected in that regard.
During the same time period, the working lines started to be judged more on their prey drive and "flashy work" than on their character. The working lines, as I have already stated, have more drive now than they used to. It is not drive that is beneficial to the dog's ability to "truly" work in protection. That is, if you think a dog should actually be protective vs simply chasing a big jute covered object hanging from a person's arm. I do not see dogs like the ones I worked 25 years ago, unless the pedigree shows those older lines closer up. Those types of dogs are mostly gone and what propels many of these dogs to do "protection " now, is different than it was back then. The dogs do not view the protection exercises as what they were developed to be years ago. More emphasis is now placed on obedience and because of that, drive becomes more important than character. Oh sure, the dogs still have to be stable, ( to a degree), but the protective instinct, like I already said, is being eliminated in the pursuit of fast and flashy obedience. The "more humane" methods are also having an impact , since you need a dog who will fit those methods and some of the stronger dogs with a more solid temperament don't always respond as well to those methods. What people do not seem to realize is the fact it is different working and controlling a dog with aggression than it is with one who is playing. Just dropping the sleeve to show the dog he made a mistake is not really a good idea when a dog is really working in protection. Or not giving a "reward" with a "grip" because the dog didn't obey. 
This is where people need to start to understand that it is not just whether a dog will bite or engage a "helper", it is about HOW they do it. The grip, for example, is not simply about POINTS, it is an indicator of temperament. Same holds true for the way a dog barks. There is a wealth of information in how a dog works in protection but BOTH , or maybe I should say all, sides seem to be losing sight of that. The working line people have "ways" to work with what is now lacking, ( making the dogs appear to be doing protection), and the show people simply are happy to see the dogs bite in any fashion as long as the dog stays there for a few seconds. Even if the motivation for it has NOTHING to do with protective instincts, all sides are happy. Sorry everyone, that's just the truth. There are only a few lines left who have these traits and they will more than likely be reduced to nothing in the years ahead. Titles and pedigrees are what people seem more interested in putting on display nowadays. There is no longer an attitude of show me your dog, it is show me the papers. 

Why does this matter for a Pet? Because of all of the things SchH once tested. It was about putting WHO the dog was on display and people seemed to have a better understanding of what to look for when they watched a dog do protection. There was a REASON Schutzhund was called SCHUTZHUND. Because people recognized how important that aspect of the dog was. A dog's ability to deal with stress when he was working using his AGGRESSION was what people were looking for. When a dog is working in prey there is far less stress involved for the dog. A German Shepherd is an aggressive breed and therefore, that aggression should always be tested to determine if the dog has the character to use it appropriately. SchH no longer tests that and the show ring never did.
How sad, how disgusting and how ridiculous that a breed revered for his protective instinct has been reduced to simply a "show animal", both in the WLs and the SLs.


----------



## holland

Thats really sad about the showline breeders loosing their minds- did it happen because they spent too much time reading posts on the internet?


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## cliffson1

Nah, probably because they never spent any time working a working dog, so they moved it to herding group where they can run in circles and then say they were developing the breed for herding, so that the cicle running has function


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## nikkiscriv

cliffson1 said:


> Nah, probably because they never spent any time working a working dog, so they moved it to herding group where they can run in circles and then say they were developing the breed for herding, so that the cicle running has function


:wild: Seriously? I find the negativity towards a particular "type" of GSD to be extremely disheartening. I also ride horses, and I prefer Warmbloods due to the type of riding I do, but that doesn't mean I don't also love Quarter Horses for their own qualities. As a newbie to the GSD world, it is very discouraging to see so much negativity aimed towards fellow GSD lovers of a different "type".


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## holland

It is sad isn't it?


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> Nah, probably because they never spent any time working a working dog, so they moved it to herding group where they can run in circles and then say they were developing the breed for herding, so that the cicle running has function


German* Shepherd*...give it some thought...you'll get it right eventually.


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## onyx'girl

nikkiscriv said:


> :wild: Seriously? I find the negativity towards a particular "type" of GSD to be extremely disheartening. I also ride horses, and I prefer Warmbloods due to the type of riding I do, but that doesn't mean I don't also love Quarter Horses for their own qualities. As a newbie to the GSD world, it is very discouraging to see so much negativity aimed towards fellow GSD lovers of a different "type".


 What is discouraging is some of the "type's" produced and what the GSD has been reduced in those "types" ~very sad indeed.


----------



## Chris Wild

nikkiscriv said:


> I also ride horses, and I prefer Warmbloods due to the type of riding I do, but that doesn't mean I don't also love Quarter Horses for their own qualities. As a newbie to the GSD world, it is very discouraging to see so much negativity aimed towards fellow GSD lovers of a different "type".


A better analogy rather than WB vs QH (two very different breeds for very different purposes, like comparing a GSD to a hunting dog) would be to talk to some QH people about the modern western pleasure horse vs a QH who can do something other than roll peanuts with it's nose and recognizes a cow and knows what to do with it. There you'll get enough negativity to make your head spin!

The split of types and negativity associated with it is not limited to GSDs, or even to dog breeds.


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## GSDElsa

nikkiscriv said:


> :wild: Seriously? I find the negativity towards a particular "type" of GSD to be extremely disheartening. I also ride horses, and I prefer Warmbloods due to the type of riding I do, but that doesn't mean I don't also love Quarter Horses for their own qualities. As a newbie to the GSD world, it is very discouraging to see so much negativity aimed towards fellow GSD lovers of a different "type".


Eh, I hate to say it horse people are just as bad if not worse!


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## Chris Wild

Whiteshepherds said:


> German* Shepherd*...give it some thought...you'll get it right eventually.


Look beyond the name and you'll find something very different. The GSD was never created to BE a herding breed, but rather was created FROM herding dogs to BE an all around working breed. World of difference there.


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## nikkiscriv

GSDElsa said:


> Eh, I hate to say it horse people are just as bad if not worse!


I was not speaking for horse people, I was speaking for myself. In both situations I may prefer one breed or type over the other, but I still love them all and don't look down on others who have a different preference.


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## cliffson1

I'm sorry my response triggered that feeling....I guess I care more about the condition of the breed than I do people's feelings. I don't mean that personally, its just that there is serious misinformation and lack of knowledge about this breed. This has led to the demise of aspects of the breed. But if keeping my mouth shut and letting people beleive this information is helpful.....hey I can do that. You don't know how often people email me and said they got a dog that was just as I described;fearful, anxious, unsure, afraid of thunder, worried look in their eyes, etc. They wish they had things explained to them like I do before they got the dog. I wonder if they are disheartened? 
I'll tone down so people can get the feel good info and everybody is happy. Fair Enough??


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## Jax08

Chris Wild said:


> A better analogy rather than WB vs QH (two very different breeds for very different purposes, like comparing a GSD to a hunting dog) would be to talk to some QH people about the modern western pleasure horse vs a QH who can do something other than roll peanuts with it's nose and recognizes a cow and knows what to do with it. There you'll get enough negativity to make your head spin!
> 
> The split of types and negativity associated with it is not limited to GSDs, or even to dog breeds.


Even better than that...the hunt seat QH's are more thoroughbred than QH.  Beautiful horses but have so little QH in them it's not funny.


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## Emoore

GSDElsa said:


> Who really cares if the average dog owner who doesn't want to do any real training gets a GSD?


Did you really just ask that question?

The rescue worker who has to start from scratch with a year-old wreck of a dog with no obedience, no manners, and no respect for humans because its original owners weren't interested in doing any "real training" and then became afraid of the dog and stuck it out in the yard, for one.

The dog itself who, through no fault of its own, doesn't get the training, exercise, and mental stimulation that it needs during its first year of life and so (again through no fault of its own) ends up dumped in an animal shelter before (hopefully) being picked up by rescue where it gets a _very_ rude awakening in the form of a month of doggie boot camp at the hand of its foster family before (hopefully) being adopted by a family.


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## Vandal

> It is sad isn't it?


 
Cliff wrote:


> I'm sorry my response triggered that feeling....


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## onyx'girl

Originally Posted by *GSDElsa*  
_Who really cares if the average dog owner who doesn't want to do any real training gets a GSD? _
Did you really just ask that question?

Emoore, you forgot to add the rest of the quote, it was a facitious question...



> A breed shouldn't be altered in temperment because it suits the consumer. At least in my opinion.


I agree with GSDElsa

LOL Anne!


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## Xeph

Anne, my husband and I love that commercial! "Jackwagon" has become a trigger of unstoppable laughter in this house!


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## selzer

Chris Wild said:


> Look beyond the name and you'll find something very different. The GSD was never created to BE a herding breed, but rather was created FROM herding dogs to BE an all around working breed. World of difference there.


Well, the way I heard it was that Max found herding dogs in Germany and wanted to create a breed of herding dogs that could be used for military work as well. 

The military was unimpressed at first.

When the reduction in the need for herding dogs looked like it would seriously endanger his breed, Max sold police departments on what the breed could do. From there it spiraled. 

But the dog was always supposed to be a herding dog.

And lets look at herding. You have the herders that bite at the ankles to move cattle and sheep. You have those that move the sheep with their eyes and presence, but wouldn't have a prayer in protecting the dogs against humans or other predators. You have the guardians that guarded the sheep after the herders got them where they needed to be. 

I heard that max wanted an all around herding dog who could also guard the family farm, etc. A medium sized dog who could do it all because of economy really. To expensive to keep multiple dogs or huge dogs for the average family farmer/shepherd.


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## GSDElsa

Emoore said:


> Did you really just ask that question?
> 
> The rescue worker who has to start from scratch with a year-old wreck of a dog with no obedience, no manners, and no respect for humans because its original owners weren't interested in doing any "real training" and then became afraid of the dog and stuck it out in the yard, for one.
> 
> The dog itself who, through no fault of its own, doesn't get the training, exercise, and mental stimulation that it needs during its first year of life and so (again through no fault of its own) ends up dumped in an animal shelter before (hopefully) being picked up by rescue where it gets a _very_ rude awakening in the form of a month of doggie boot camp at the hand of its foster family before (hopefully) being adopted by a family.


I think you completely missed the point of what I said? Do YOU really think that breeders should breed their German Shepherds "down" to be more desirable to the "typical" dog owner? I do rescue as well, and I absolutely don't feel like there should be something changed in breeding a "working" dog that the average pet owner might not know how to handle. I'm actually a little shocked if that's how you feel and it's a subject we'll have to agree to disagree on if that's the case.


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## GSDElsa

nikkiscriv said:


> I was not speaking for horse people, I was speaking for myself. In both situations I may prefer one breed or type over the other, but I still love them all and don't look down on others who have a different preference.


I see  Probably a bad analogy considering how much in (out?) fighting there is around horse people. Hunt seat vs. reining. Eventers vs. dressage people. Arab people vs. QH people. Dumbblood people (ooops! kidding...I used to own a Duth WB so I really don't feel that way, but you get the point ) vs. TB people........


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## Emoore

GSDElsa said:


> Do YOU really think that breeders should breed their German Shepherds "down" to be more desirable to the "typical" dog owner?


 Nope. But I also don't think "_Who really cares if the average dog owner who doesn't want to do any real training gets a GSD? " _

I care. 

I'm sorry if you were being sarcastic or facetious, it's hard to catch inflection on the internet. 

I don't think the breed should be "dumbed down" but if we're going to keep it a working dog we've *got* to find a way to keep these dogs out of the hands of the typically lazy pet owner

Part of the reason I started this thread is because there's a big disconnect between what the bulk of the public wants the breed to be and what it is, and the dogs are the ones that suffer. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm hoping there is one.


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## Chris Wild

selzer said:


> When the reduction in the need for herding dogs looked like it would seriously endanger his breed, Max sold police departments on what the breed could do. From there it spiraled.
> But the dog was always supposed to be a herding dog.
> 
> And lets look at herding. You have the herders that bite at the ankles to move cattle and sheep. You have those that move the sheep with their eyes and presence, but wouldn't have a prayer in protecting the dogs against humans or other predators. You have the guardians that guarded the sheep after the herders got them where they needed to be.
> 
> I heard that max wanted an all around herding dog who could also guard the family farm, etc. A medium sized dog who could do it all because of economy really. To expensive to keep multiple dogs or huge dogs for the average family farmer/shepherd.


 
Max purchased Horand and founded the SV in 1899.
First SchH trial (clearly for the purpose of military work) was in 1901.
The first GSD was exhibited in the US in 1907 and recognized by the AKC in 1908.
The breed was well represented in German military service in WWI (1914-1918), and so impressive was their work that they were highly sought after and popularity in other countries soared right after the end of the war.

So just looking at that basic time line we have...
2 years between club founding/breeding programs begun and first SchH trial. 
Less than 10 years betwen club founding/breeding programs begun and GSDs are being exhibited in other countries. 
15 years between club founding/breeding programs begun and there is enough of a standard established and desired traits for military service honed in on that thousands of dogs were able to be quickly trained and join military service when war breaks out and suddenly the military wakes up and sees they have value after all.

That is not a case of "lets make a cheap, do it all herding dog for the farmers being hit by this tough economy, oh, and maybe do something else with them too." And there was certainly not enough time in there for any sort of sudden reduction in need or desire for herding dogs to completely change the whole purpose of the organization, and any breeding focus change resulting from such change of purpose to have produced what it did in such a short period of time.

From it's inception the breed was intended to be an all around working dog. Herding was always considered part of that, but only a part.


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## selzer

The average German herding dog of the day had the traits necessary to be trained for military work. I do not think that they created a war dog so much as realized that herding dogs have the intelligence, size, and other traits needed to be trained for what they needed. 

And this is why you do not need a schutzhund title to breed, a herding title is still acceptable.


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## Jax08

Emoore said:


> *Nope. But I also don't think "Who really cares if the average dog owner who doesn't want to do any real training gets a GSD? " *



I'm willing to bet GSDElsa was being sarcastic. Or if not, then I'm assuming by "real training" she is referring to competition type training. She is way to passionate about rescue to take something like an untrained, unruly dog not seriously.


----------



## Chris Wild

selzer said:


> The average German herding dog of the day had the traits necessary to be trained for military work. I do not think that they created a war dog so much as realized that herding dogs have the intelligence, size, and other traits needed to be trained for what they needed.
> 
> And this is why you do not need a schutzhund title to breed, a herding title is still acceptable.


You said:
"But the dog was always supposed to be a herding dog."

And that is not true. It was always supposed to be a working dog, of which herding was a respected line of work. But only one of many. Not exclusively, or even primarily. And for titling purposes, only a particular and rather unique type of herding (which incidentally involved protection work, and not just livestock protection but protection of the handler against a human aggressor) is acceptable. Not any old type of herding will do.

It may seem like semantics, but it is not. Understanding the difference between being a herding dog and being a working dog, of which herding is a part, and the uniqueness of that type of herding, and what all of that translates to with regard to the character of the GSD is fundamental to understanding this breed.


----------



## GSDElsa

Jax08 said:


> I'm willing to bet GSDElsa was being sarcastic. Or if not, then I'm assuming by "real training" she is referring to competition type training. She is way to passionate about rescue to take something like an untrained, unruly dog not seriously.


I mean, yes and no I was being sarcastic. Obviously I do RESCUE, so I CARE about what happens within this breed. But the "don't care" comment means that I absolutely 110% do not feel that this breed should be turned into a golden retriever type breed so the average person can handle them. I don't at ALL feel that a good breeder should take into account what Mr. Joe Blow and his family want that are planning on keeping the dog in the backyard and doing a 10 minute walk a week. 

If anything I actually quite strongly feel that breeders TRYING to do exactly that have contributed to the shelter epidemic of GSD's. Just enough have "dumbed down" the GSD that the averave "do nothing" pet owner thinks they can provide the needs of a GSD. They can't and I don't think that good breeders should feel they need to change their ethics and beliefs in maintaining the working ability of the breed to suit someone wanting to take their dog on a short walk a night and nothing else.

It's interesting to me that two people doing the same thing (rescue) can have a large difference in opinion while still having the same goal. I think the answer is to stop trying to pretend the GSD is something that it's not. And your answer is to find some kind of happy medium. But we're both after the same thing.


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## Jax08

I completely agree with you, Justine!!


----------



## W.Oliver

Did I mention I am getting a puppy.........


----------



## Samba

:rofl:


----------



## Andaka

:spittingcoffee:


----------



## Xeph

> Did I mention I am getting a puppy.........


Ain't it one of them there workin' line dawgs?


----------



## Ruthie

cliffson1 said:


> I'm sorry my response triggered that feeling....I guess I care more about the condition of the breed than I do people's feelings. I don't mean that personally, its just that there is serious misinformation and lack of knowledge about this breed. This has led to the demise of aspects of the breed. But if keeping my mouth shut and letting people believe this information is helpful.....hey I can do that. You don't know how often people email me and said they got a dog that was just as I described;fearful, anxious, unsure, afraid of thunder, worried look in their eyes, etc. They wish they had things explained to them like I do before they got the dog. I wonder if they are disheartened?
> I'll tone down so people can get the feel good info and everybody is happy. Fair Enough??


Please no.

Believe me, I work in HR and am probably PC to a fault, but I care more about good information. I am not saying you need to be nasty, but if something is wrong please continue to say so. Some people want to listen.



Selzer said:


> If these people were saddled with an American or German showline dog, if the handler was worth their salt, and the dog was not seriously flawed, they should be able to accomplish with them more than what the average showline owner does. If their attitude is oh, this is just a showline dog, they might let their attitude about the dog ruin their chances with the dog.
> 
> But the split does allow for different owner types to get dogs that are more suited to them. I think that is great. People who want energizer bunnies can get them, people who want dogs that are more relaxed can get them.


My opinions are, of course, only based on my limited experiences and I have never claimed to be anything other than a newbie. But, even the short time that I have been working my dog, I am overwhelmed by the amount of people who started with showlines and have switched to working lines because they don't have the drive to work. I am not saying that there are not showlines that can work. I am sure there probably are. That is great. 

I don't think there SHOULD be a split. I don't think it is great that it allows people to have a couch potato GSD. GSDs should not be couch potatoes. 

I am not sure where you got the idea that all WL are "energizer bunnies". Yes, there are some, but that doesn't mean all are or that "WL People" think that is correct. Unless I am really mis-informed, a GSD should have an off switch and settle. 

The SL that I observed in SchH so far dogs don't have the aggression and passion for work that the WL's I have observed do. Even those who are still earning titles present a completely different picture that even a novice like me can pick up on. 

I am not saying "ALL". I have talked to WL breeders who are very concerned with confirmation that expect their dogs to be able to win shows and I have talked to SL breeders who expect their dogs to be able to title. It is just a general observation that seems to line up with those who have been around for a long, long time.


----------



## onyx'girl

What I see in SchH( my training group is more SL than WL's) is the SL handlers have to work harder to bring out the drive and biddability, in all phases. The dogs look great though, and that is largely because of the helper understanding the lines he is working and the handlers doing what it takes to bring out the dogs best. 
These SL's are mostly from the same kennel and are strong herding lines, so the work ethic on the pedigree's are pretty strong and they are doing well in the conformation rings, too. A few of the group are seeing the difference and now going with WL's.


----------



## Emoore

GSDElsa said:


> It's interesting to me that two people doing the same thing (rescue) can have a large difference in opinion while still having the same goal. I think the answer is to stop trying to pretend the GSD is something that it's not. And your answer is to find some kind of happy medium. But we're both after the same thing.


Just to clarify, I'm not in favor of the breed being scaled back or dumbed down to fit the needs of Joe the Plumber. I think there should be a way to keep him from getting his hands on a GSD in the first place.

ETA: I've got a deposit on a working line puppy, for crimeney sake. Cash was a working line dog. I <3 working dawgs!


----------



## Chris Wild

Ruthie said:


> Please no.
> 
> Believe me, I work in HR and am probably PC to a fault, but I care more about good information. I am not saying you need to be nasty, but if something is wrong please continue to say so. Some people want to listen.


Never fear, Amy. I had a nice chat with my good friend Cliff this evening and he promises to be back after a brief respite in Mamby Pamby land.


----------



## selzer

And I have experienced too many people who have had working line dogs and now want showline dogs because the working line dogs were insane. 

I think that from a working line perspective you will see people going from SL to WL and you will be correct. 

From a SL perpective, I am going to see people going from WL to SL and I will be correct. 

There is a place for the different lines. I am offended by the phrase "dumbing down." Just like you would be offended by my saying that just because show lines are not _hyper idiots_, it certainly does not mean they are dumber than the working line dogs.

I think the dogs from both camps work and learn differently. It does not make one smarter than the other.


----------



## W.Oliver

selzer said:


> There is a place for the different lines.


 One on the left side of my bed, and one on the right! Goodnight.


----------



## Ruthie

selzer said:


> And I have experienced too many people who have had working line dogs and now want showline dogs because the working line dogs were insane.
> 
> I think that from a working line perspective you will see people going from SL to WL and you will be correct.
> 
> From a SL perpective, I am going to see people going from WL to SL and I will be correct.
> 
> There is a place for the different lines. I am offended by the phrase "dumbing down." Just like you would be offended by my saying that just because show lines are not _hyper idiots_, it certainly does not mean they are dumber than the working line dogs.
> 
> I think the dogs from both camps work and learn differently. It does not make one smarter than the other.


 
I didn't use the term "dumbing down" in connection with SL. I said that about purposefully breeding out correct characteristics of a GSD so that the "average" dog owner could have one, more in reference to the idea of a "pet line".

If you took it that I was talking about your dogs, that was your sensitivity.


----------



## cliffson1

Ruthie, 
Maybe it will be good for more people to get advice on the lines; from people who have never owned what they speak about, on training; and have never particpated in the training they speak of, on breeding; and never have bred a litter, or history; and usually have it assbackwards, or the breed itself; and know little about it but are ready to give criticism about what is reputable or not. 
I look forward to the next pm that comes my way looking for advice because I will certainly send them to some of the people from this thread that will certainly make them feel good. Good Karma!


----------



## selzer

Ruthie said:


> I didn't use the term "dumbing down" in connection with SL. I said that about purposefully breeding out correct characteristics of a GSD so that the "average" dog owner could have one, more in reference to the idea of a "pet line".
> 
> If you took it that I was talking about your dogs, that was your sensitivity.


No, I did not think you were talking about my dogs, I thought you were talking about the lines in general. It sounded like "dumbing down" was like watering down the drive and energy level so that average pet owners could manage the dogs. Average pet owners CAN manage German Showline dogs. Well, Average pet owners with a little common sense and who will do at least some training.


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## W.Oliver

I am one of those folks who believe working line GSDs are the closest to what the breed was originally was intended to be.

I also believe the divergence in the lines is significant, and has developed to a point of no return.

So someone please tell me again, why is it the working line folks refuse to pick-up their marbles and leave?

Regardless the reason of divergence in the GSD lines....it just is, and pragmatically, there is no going back...a unified single GSD breed is over.

With all the animosity from working line breeders for the "dumbing" down, and softening of other lines, or sporting-up of even some of the working lines, why wouldn't the breeders of "real" working lines form their own organization?

Is it because the working line breeders are of insufficient drive to step-up and do something? Is it because there is a lack of nerve to cultivate leadership to do something? It is because the alternative of bitching is just easier?

Certainly editoralizing about the current state isn't going to change anything? Reminiscing about 1976 isn't going to change anything. I don't see folks wasting their time squealing about unification of the White GSDs...and the White GSD folks have their own organization, attend their own shows, and do their thing. Why can't the working line folks do something similar?

Why wouldn't unified real GSD breeders establish a breed worthiness test that isn't a competitive sport? 

You "Jack Wagons" either need to step-up and do something, or sit down, and shut the  up.

Live and let live.

God, grant me the serenityTo accept the things I cannot change;Courage to change the things I can;And wisdom to know the difference.


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## W.Oliver

Post Script, I am a member of the RSV2000. I pay my €60,00 each year for no other reason than to support a proactive organization that is doing something to sustain/promote the working dog.

If you are doing nothing but sitting in your kennel and breeding dogs you think are correct, but not stepping up to drive change outside of your sphere, then save yourself the embarassment of knocking Raiser.

On the otherhand, if there is one among you who has the gestalt to step up, I am willing to help.


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## Jason L

W.Oliver said:


> Did I mention I am getting a puppy.........


Really? When? I haven't heard ...


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## cliffson1

W. Oliver,
I own German Shepherds and I breed German Shepherds that are what you read in the book a German Shepherd should be. Why would I go anywhere. Speak to the people who are trying to change the image of the breed, change the demeanor of the breed, have sensitivity to the criticism based on the breed standard, try to justify these changes that are inconsistent with the standard or the book. 
People always want to focus on the messenger when their position of message is weak. We see it in politics all the time. People act like Cliff comes on forum, makes up these things the breed ought to be or not be, to single them or their dogs out. WRONG...Cliff regurgitates what the standard and the legacy of the breed is, and people whose dogs that don't measure up get offended. They focus on Cliff instead of focusing on whether there is substantial truth to what Cliff is saying. It is a symptom of Kennel blindness and stubboness. 
Why should I form anything new...I have real German Shepherds like the ones you read about in the standard or the encyclopedia. I never get offended by comments made about the breed in terms of my dogs because they represent mainstream traits of the breed for what the dog should be.
So, I suggest that the people who don't want the breed to be strong, vigilant, noble, protective, loyal, aggressive when necessary, etc should move out and write a NEW standard that emphasizes and fits the mold they have taken the breed.
Me leave and form something new....???? For what....my dogs are what the German Shepherd is supposed to be by breed definition.
ps Notice I didn't mention lines, I have said often that lines are the downfall of the breed....there are good German Shepherds and there are good breeding programs, good breeding programs come from breeding for the right reasons, and the end result as judged by the complete standard tells the result.
Nope, going nowhere


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## onyx'girl

selzer said:


> And I have experienced too many people who have had working line dogs and now want showline dogs because the working line dogs were *insane*.
> 
> I think that from a working line perspective you will see people going from SL to WL and you will be correct.
> 
> From a SL perpective, I am going to see people going from WL to SL and I will be correct.
> 
> There is a place for the different lines. I am offended by the phrase "dumbing down." Just like you would be offended by my saying that just because show lines are not _*hyper idiots*_, it certainly does not mean they are dumber than the working line dogs.
> 
> I think the dogs from both camps work and learn differently. It does not make one smarter than the other.


*Yet you just seemed to say the WL is a hyper idiot, and insane...*:rolleyes2:


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## W.Oliver

cliffson1 said:


> ......I breed German Shepherds that are what you read in the book a German Shepherd should be. Why would I go anywhere.


First, let me say....I believe what you and others like you are accomplishing within your kennel is correct. You are an island by which the GSD I prefer will be sustained.

Allow me to tell you a story. My mother-in-law lived in an area of Metro-Detroit, that in 1965, when they built the home, was a beautiful, safe place to live. Over time, as the blight that is Detroit expanded, undesirable elements began to move into the area. Back in 1976 it was hardly noticable. In the 80s, the undesirable elements crept in a bit more. By the 90s the population was split between the legacy neighbors, and the unsavory. Today, there are pocket of good people, and the vast majority are of a different ilk.

For 18 years I had encouraged my mother-in-law to move, and if she had done so at the time, the value of the home would be dramatically different than it is now.

Her position was the same as yours.....she was there first, what she was doing was correct, and the others are the problem. If she had simply recognized it for what it was, her financial position would have been literally over 400% better when she retired.

The GSD neighborhood around you is changing Cliff. You can be a stubborn old fart and do nothing but bitch while it crumbles around you, or you and others like you can band together to ensure what you've sustained over the years goes well beyond what you have accomplished.

I am not shooting the messenger, I am challenging you and others like you to step-up and lead the working line GSD in the appropriate direction for North America.


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## trudy

Sorry but I have to add my 2 cents, I REALLY HATE when I read once upon a time Am Show lines could work, do what they were bred for but now can't. That once upon a time there were breeders who cared about the work ethic and still had it, well sit back folks and realize some of those people are still there!!!!

They like what was there and by careful breeding and adding in some GSL and paying very close attention to temperment and trainability have dogs who can do it all. True they will not win in specialty shows but will finish all breed, dogs who when introduced to sheep instinctively circle and control the flock. Dogs who when challenged show aggression, when taken to a play ground or school are totally reliable with kids, group homes fine any type of behavior or apparatus. Dogs who naturally track and find lost articles before any training has been done. Dogs who have no more reaction to gun fire or sound than just looking in the direction. 

Yep I believe all working line breeders could tell horror stories of bad breeders of their line they know or have heard and so can we say there are good ones here too. I researched and asked questions and am very happy with my choice and all the people that said it was my rearing that made Ty so exceptional, well Gemma arrived at 9 months, full younger sibling, totally neglected locked in a kennel, no socializing and she is just like him. Breeding does make the difference.

Also while on my rant I personally know of several ASL who are now adding in the GSL in their breeding, trying to bring back some brain and stability of temperment, and these breeders are finding the non-roach back ones with the best temperment they can. Also the specialty ring is becoming less extreme, and some judges are actually stressing the temperment be at least somewhat stable. It will take time  but I believe the breed may be going back toward the middle ground. 

I also think WL should strive to look less like Mal's and more like GS, I see too many square bodies and the quickness of Mal's. Let's all strive to educate and not trash the other side. First lets breed to temperment, then health, then looks, If all sides did this we would have 1 breed very similar in time.


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## Samba

Lines are the problem! 

Wayne, who is looking to be lead?


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## Xeph

> *Yet you just seemed to say the WL is a hyper idiot, and insane..*


I read that comment as being facetious. She was comparing how she's offended by the phrase "dumbing down" and working line people are offended by the phrase "Hyper idiots".


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## W.Oliver

Samba said:


> Lines are the problem!
> 
> Wayne, who is looking to be lead?


GSD lines are a symptom, and an expression of the problem, which is human nature. Human nature is a group who prefer white shepherds, dispite the fact that the color is non-standard. Human nature is American line breeders determining a working title is not required. Human nature is SV Show line breeders reducing the demands/expectations on working titles. Human nature is working line breeders producing sport dogs to be successful.

I am looking to be lead, as a non-breeder, and as a person who values the tradition of a real working GSD....the dog Cliff has sustained for so many years. Do we simply assume that type of GSD will continue on after him, or will the current state of the GSD continue to move towards a similar fate of so many breeds of hunting dogs?

Rather than islands or pockets of real GSDs, what is the harm in organizing for the longterm benefit of what Cliff and others value? Wouldn't that benefit the working GSD?

Don't think of it as so extreme as seperatists, but rather as supplamental. USA is a combination of Wroking line and SV line dogs. Would it be so horrible to reaffirm/manage working lines in a breed organization specific to that GSD?


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## Samba

So a U.S. RSV2000?

Hmm a J name? 

I think Jai Ho vom Wildhaus


----------



## W.Oliver

Samba said:


> So a U.S. RSV2000?
> 
> Hmm a J name?
> 
> I think Jai Ho vom Wildhaus


I don't care for the name RSV2000....when I heard Helmet say it the first time, I thought he was kidding. Whatever the organization is called who cares if in the end it is the basis in securing real working GSDs for the future.

I would prefer to let Cliff name the new organization he has volunteered to lead....I am just willing to be one of his minions to help get it started.

Jai Ho - You are my destiny? Jäger - Hunter is more appropriate, as I am seeking answers for the future.


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## dOg

Jane- 
Selzer said you would be offended IF she said that.
So she didn't, so no need to be offended.

As for can the lines be tweaked back to one, they could, but likely won't be.
Some breeders are mixing the lines. If they live long enough, they may get to where they seek to be, but even the SV/GSL have issues, so to expect we'll see the perfect blend under AKC, whether under the UScA or GSDCA might be WAY too high an expectation of the fragile human egos involved. 

If this weren't the case, we'd all be singing Kumbuya instead of whining about the JA amendment, no?


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## Emoore

W.Oliver said:


> I don't care for the name RSV2000....when I heard Helmet say it the first time, I thought he was kidding.


I thought it was a kind of motorcycle.


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## onyx'girl

Xeph said:


> I read that comment as being facetious. She was comparing how she's offended by the phrase "dumbing down" and working line people are offended by the phrase "Hyper idiots".





> Selzer said you would be offended IF she said that.
> So she didn't, so no need to be offended.


Not offended, and I know what Selzer was saying...


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## onyx'girl

Originally Posted by *Samba*  
_So a U.S. RSV2000?_

_Hmm a J name? _

_I think Jai Ho vom Wildhaus_


W.Oliver said:


> I don't care for the name RSV2000....when I heard Helmet say it the first time, I thought he was kidding. Whatever the organization is called who cares if in the end it is the basis in securing real working GSDs for the future.
> 
> I would prefer to let Cliff name the new organization he has volunteered to lead....I am just willing to be one of his minions to help get it started.
> 
> Jai Ho - You are my destiny? Jäger - Hunter is more appropriate, as I am seeking answers for the future.






 
Insane hyper idiots~but cute insane hyper idiots


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## GSDElsa

With that music, that kennel has GOT to be in East Eurpoe somewhere.


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## Ruthie

trudy said:


> Sorry but I have to add my 2 cents, I REALLY HATE when I read once upon a time Am Show lines could work, do what they were bred for but now can't. *That once upon a time there were breeders who cared about the work ethic and still had it, well sit back folks and realize some of those people are still there!!!!*
> 
> They like what was there and by careful breeding and adding in some GSL and paying very close attention to temperment and trainability have dogs who can do it all. True they will not win in specialty shows but will finish all breed, dogs who when introduced to sheep instinctively circle and control the flock. Dogs who when challenged show aggression, when taken to a play ground or school are totally reliable with kids, group homes fine any type of behavior or apparatus. Dogs who naturally track and find lost articles before any training has been done. Dogs who have no more reaction to gun fire or sound than just looking in the direction.
> 
> Yep I believe all working line breeders could tell horror stories of bad breeders of their line they know or have heard and so can we say there are good ones here too. I researched and asked questions and am very happy with my choice and all the people that said it was my rearing that made Ty so exceptional, well Gemma arrived at 9 months, full younger sibling, totally neglected locked in a kennel, no socializing and she is just like him. Breeding does make the difference.
> 
> Also while on my rant I personally know of several ASL who are now adding in the GSL in their breeding,* trying to bring back some brain and stability of temperment*, and these breeders are finding the non-roach back ones with the best temperment they can. Also the specialty ring is becoming less extreme, and some judges are actually stressing the temperment be at least somewhat stable. It will take time but I believe the breed may be going back toward the middle ground.
> 
> I also think WL should strive to look less like Mal's and more like GS, I see too many square bodies and the quickness of Mal's. Let's all strive to educate and not trash the other side. First lets breed to temperment, then health, then looks, If all sides did this we would have 1 breed very similar in time.


If there isn't a problem with the ASL, and they haven't changed over the years, why do they have to "bring back some brain and stability of temperament."


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## Samba

Oh for sure each niche breeding has found some sort of extreme. That is the issue often discussed. The different lines have sought their own extremes many times.

The craziness of the 70s and 80s in the ASL specialty has subsided and there is a tendency toward a more moderate and correct dog. I don't have a chance to inspect every temperament, but there is at least more stability than there used to be. I have recently helped to rehome a few ASL dogs who had too much drive and strength for their owners. The new homes have found them to be quite nice dogs but then they are homes that are dog savvy. They are not all a bunch of quaking hock walkers. If I were going to bring in other blood it improve ASLs, I would skip the WGSL and go to nicely conformed WLs. 

I don't think that making generalizations about the lines is bashing them particularly. It is about the only way to talk about them as we can not speak to each individual dog. The back massing of genetics in some these genetically narrow lines is pretty astounding. I never thought that was a good idea but I am no expert. 

I wish there were not lines and niche breedings. I could reduce my numbers as I have ASL, WGSL and WL dogs here that I do different things with. Arrrrgh, really!


JAI HO' - the appropriate meaning and implication is (1) be victorious (2) have victory


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## cliffson1

Exactly!!


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## trudy

quote- If there isn't a problem with the ASL, and they haven't changed over the years, why do they have to "bring back some brain and stability of temperament."quote-

There are some with these problems I would be crazy not to see it all I am sayign is there are good ones, its like saying all WL are crazy with no off switch, tehre may be some but they aren't all like that. I feel it should be acknowledged that all do have good, bad, great, and just plain awful. That careful research can let you find one suitable in any of the lines and they will make you happy.


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## Ruthie

trudy said:


> quote- If there isn't a problem with the ASL, and they haven't changed over the years, why do they have to "bring back some brain and stability of temperament."quote-
> 
> There are some with these problems I would be crazy not to see it all I am sayign is there are good ones, its like saying all WL are crazy with no off switch, tehre may be some but they aren't all like that. I feel it should be acknowledged that all do have good, bad, great, and just plain awful. That careful research can let you find one suitable in any of the lines and they will make you happy.


I don't think anyone said "ALL". In fact, I said that it wasn't ALL several times.


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## selzer

Good posts Trudy. 

About the u-tube. And people think I am crazy when I say everything takes ten times longer with puppies. I had a bunch of ten like that, and I knew if I went down, I would be in trouble, LOL!!!

I think people have been incorporating GSL into ASL all along. But as the two get farther and farther apart in looks, that is going to happen less and less. I think the dogs that do well in all-breed rings are more likely to have GSL in them, then specialty dogs.


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## Whiteshepherds

W.Oliver said:


> *GSD lines are a symptom, and an expression of the problem, which is human nature. Human nature is a group who prefer white shepherds, dispite the fact that the color is non-standard.* Human nature is American line breeders determining a working title is not required. Human nature is SV Show line breeders reducing the demands/expectations on working titles. Human nature is working line breeders producing sport dogs to be successful.


I agree that human nature along with the ego's, preferences and prejudices that go along with being human all play a part in the split, but I'd like to clarify something for people new to the breed.​ 
White was an accepted color in the breed standard with the AKC for 60 years. It was part of the GSDCA breed standard for 46 years. Breeders who used whites in their breeding programs didn't abandon the standard, the standard abandoned them.​ 
Imagine waking up tomorrow to discover that the SV or AKC was petitioning to have sables considered a disqualifying fault...and then it happened. Your breeding stock and progeny that happen to be sable take a giant nosedive from great lines to faulty ones.
For the next 10-20 years what people notice about your pedigrees is that they're full of faulty colored dogs. The money you have spent and the time you have invested in producing quality dogs no longer matters because that faulty gene is running rampant through your line. 
You are no longer judged by the quality or accomplishments of your progeny, you are a breeder with dogs that have no place in the world of German Shepherds....because that's what the standard now says. Here today, gone tomorrow.​ 
That was the plight of the white shepherd breeders and all the breeders who used whites in their breeding programs. While they may be working outside the standard now, it's important to remember that it was stubbornness, prejudices, ignorance and politics that drove them out. At least they took a stand and continue to work towards a common goal. It may not match the original vision of MvS but for the most part, it's solid, it's whole and it's moving forward.​


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## Rei

*Wayne *- In regards to the white coated German Shepherd, keep in mind that there is another group that opposes the splitting of the breed. Instead the show and exhibit their white coated GSDs for what they are... German Shepherd Dogs. These white dogs are bred to other coat colors as well and the goal is not to reproduce the white coat, just a good overall German Shepherd that conforms to standard and represents the breed. 

To *Cliff*, *Chris*, *Anne*, and many others on this board, you all do a great service to the breed and to promote the total German Shepherd Dog. Please keep doing what you do and keep the posts coming. It does make a difference.


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## Whiteshepherds

Rei said:


> In regards to the white coated German Shepherd, keep in mind that there is another group that opposes the splitting of the breed. Instead the show and exhibit their white coated GSDs for what they are...German Shepherd Dogs. *These white dogs are bred to other coat colors as well and the goal is not to reproduce the white coat*, just a good overall German Shepherd that conforms to standard and represents the breed.


Yes, it's the AWSA that's working towards breed separation. www.awsaclub.com

If the group you're referring to is the WGDCA this is their breed standard. 
http://www.wgsdca.org/thebreed/breedstandard.asp *The only colors they allow for in their standard are white and white with biscuit so obviously, their goal is to reproduce the white coat. *

Both groups still register their dogs with the AKC as German Shepherds, color, white. 

Both groups continue to compete in AKC sanctioned performance and obedience trial and events. Both groups compete in these events as German Shepherds. 

*Neither group may compete in the AKC conformation ring as they are all still considered White German Shepherds and the color is a fault. *

The AWSA wants to separate from the parent club and be recognized as a new breed. 
The WGDCA is willing to remain part of the German Shepherd breed and accepts the limitations the AKC imposes on them due to the color. 

If you're not referring to the WGSDA would you mind letting me know what group you are referring to?


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## Samba

I see more breeding with WGSL in the ASL than previously. While many combinations like this might be seen more in the all-breed ring, there are a lot more dogs who show in both rings now. There is generally less difference in the two types than say in the 70s and 80s.

I believe I saw the Pastor make a nice showing at the national specialty. He was not out of place there.

AM/CAN. CH Pastor Burgos - German shepherd dog


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## cliffson1

Trudy, 
I recognize your passion and love for the breed and admire it. You also seem very realistic. Here's where I think positions like yours are disingenuous when you equate WL dogs and hyperness and SL dogs and need for brains and stability.
I go to a lot of training forum and dog shows. I see a lot of workinglines at performance events and a lot of SL dogs at conformation,obedience(rally, AKC, Agility) and herding training.
The high majority of WL have higher drives, yet stronger nerves and thus when not in performance have an off switch that make them also good home dogs. The hyper dog, contrary to the posts of some who wouldn't even visit a working venue and yet are experts on them, is a very small minority of WL because of the superior nerves. Yes, they do exist, but definitely the exception. 
The SL dogs too often are very weak nerved, soft, very hard to recover from a negative experience, requiring "gentle teaching" (so to speak) to be able to successfully train them to high levels. This is the norm and the dogs harder than this is the exception.(I'm not bashing just stating what I see). 
My herding instructor always tells me how refreshing is it to train my female because her recovery ability to maintain focus in stress makes the training easy and fast moving. She laments that too many of the black and tan GS she gets brought to her are too soft with no drive, and some are so angulated that when they have to cut and acelerate that are too gawky so they take forever getting sheep together. 
My point is these traits that are hindering the SL dogs in mind and body are not the exception. 
So your analogy isn't comparing problems that are dominant in each side. 
The further problem is the new person will think that the "norm" for showline temperament is what you say is still out there. What you are describing is hard to find among SL breeders (especially ASL), and though you and Daphne may have dogs like this; where do all these other dogs that so many people see when they go to shows that reflect the prevailing attitude about ASL come from???? Somewhere!!
This isn't a bashing thread, but my thinking is if a line or breed has major problems then we should shed major light on them to get them eradicated. If the problems are minor, they still need to be noted but in the minor context in which they reside. When major problem are swept into the closet or there is a sensitivity about them it is an indication of resistance to confronting and dealing with them. 
And as a passionate breed person this is sadder than the "feelings" of the same people who don't want to shine the light on the "major" problem. 
Does that make any sense?


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## Samba

I have not met many ASL show line breeders that get out and about who are not pretty much aware of the differences in the lines of the show dogs and the working. I have been told not to expect the same from my show line dog as my working dogs. These people certainly meant no disrespect to their own lines or to me. These folks, of course, are speaking in generalizations too. We all know there are better and lesser dogs in all areas. 

Really these are lines that took divergent paths and there are some 'generalized" differences that you can expect to encounter. Nerves and resiliency being a part of this. 

I have had a now a small number of WL dogs in my home. I was thinking about this "no off switch" thing last night, even before the above post. I was wondering why I had never encountered such an issue? I wanted to think that I was just gifted at picking, but I know that is not really the case. Seems like the stronger nerves allow a dog with "go" to settle appropriately. Fortunately, these "crazy making" dogs are not ones I have encountered. Is it pure luck?


----------



## trudy

Cliff I really appreciate your post, and the passion I have for my dogs and their breeder. I have been told by so many people that Ty is a throw back with his fantastic temperment and when herding the comments are very good. He has drive and brain and resiliency, and strong powerful movement. Yes sadly he is in the minority of ASL but I do get compliments on not his looks but the temperment, and these same breeders are trying to bring some back in their lines. So I have to say in Canada anyway there are some who know they need this kind of temperment, these are not supposed to be Goldens.

And honestly I do love when a long time breeder says no one could ever fail my dogs in any temperment venue, and I am glad that Gemma is so good too which proves genetics not just socializing. I just like to point out there are good/bad/great/awful in all and that research is the answer. Don't buy at the first place or the nearest, look, question and make an educated decision then get out socialize, train adn enjoy your dog. And most of all LOVE it no matter what line you have.


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> Trudy,
> The high majority of WL have higher drives, yet stronger nerves and thus when not in performance have an off switch that make them also good home dogs. ....
> The SL dogs too often are very weak nerved, soft, very hard to recover from a negative experience, requiring "gentle teaching" (so to speak) to be able to successfully train them to high levels. This is the norm and the dogs harder than this is the exception.(I'm not bashing just stating what I see).


Can you maybe elaborate a little? Would soft and weak nerved go hand in hand or are they different aspects of the dogs temperament?
Can a dog have good nerves and still be soft?


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## cliffson1

Whiteshepherds,
By all means a dog can have great nerve and be soft. My DDR female that herds has great nerve but is much softer than my other dogs. The most important part of temperament, IMO, is nerve. Its not drive, like many uninformed believe, it is nerve. Its the easy thing to lose and hardest thing to gain. It should never be compromised. The nerve gives the nobility to the breed. The nerve allows the dog to handle the stress of new people, places and things. The nerve allows the dog to not have the worried look, and run from thunder, or do submissive urinating past puppyhood. The nerve allows the dog to be trained to high levels of functioning in any of the venues. The nerve allows the aggression component of the breed not to be a liability, or become a sharp shy biter which is nothing more than weak nerves. The nerve allows thedog to be protective of its own and its responsibility such as in herding or dogs for handicapped people. And I could go on and on. Yet as important as nerve is, there are many breeders that don't know nerve, don't understand nerve, and certainlydon't breed for it first. Soooooo you have dogs which if there behavoir is discussed you are bashing, instead of people saying who bred this dog with such poor nerves. Nerves are more important than hips or structure because a dog with nerve and moderate hips can still be of service to family and man. A dog with weak nerves and OFA excellent cannot be of use to man in service because stress will expose the dogs and make the dog unreliable in its task.
Good nerves can be with soft dogs or hard dogs but without them you have the shell of a German Shepherd but not the essence.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

cliff I really think you should write a book,,I'd be the first one in line and of course would want you to sign it)


----------



## Lucy Dog

JakodaCD OA said:


> cliff I really think you should write a book,,I'd be the first one in line and of course would want you to sign it)


Agreed... he's definitely an asset to this board. Good stuff cliff.


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## Wilhoit

Is a soft dog soft to all things? Is soft always undesirable? Is it possible to have a dog who is sensitive to its handler's corrections in training (therefore requiring minimal compulsion), but is unaffected by or recovers quickly from other negative stimuli? If so, might this not be a good thing? If not, happy to be corrected.


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## Wilhoit

I'm having a problem trying to understand the difference between soft and lacking in nerve. Thanks to the discussion, I think I now understand "nerve", but am still confused by "soft." Is "soft" just the inability to recover quickly from all or some negative stimuli, or is it something else?


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## onyx'girl

I think a "soft" dog is one that is very biddable, willing to please, a look is a correction for some and will be submissive but not in a fearful way. A soft dog will and can recover quickly if it has good steady nerve, and will try all things asked of him because of his biddability.
Like going over an A-frame for the first time, no hesitation or fear, but isn't acting stubborn because it doesn't want to try it. A soft dog may need to be coaxed but will comply and be confident in what they've tried vs a nervy dog that wouldn't even try and shut down instead.

A soft dog can have great drive, and will do what is asked~ there is no fear or hesitation.

A "hard" dog is more opposite, a little headstrong, independent, stubborn, not so much into pleasing the handler if he sees something better(in his mind) to do, and a look of correction is nothing, a firm correction is needed to get thru in some instances.
This is just my opinion, I may be waaay off!


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## selzer

Some of mine are soft. They are easy to train, but would be terrible with someone doing compulsion training with them. They HAVE protected me when an unknown drunken stranger came at me, so I do not think they are lacking nerve. 

Lacking nerve, seems to be a continuum. Dogs that have thunder phobias, separation anxiety to the extent of injuring themselves, dogs that are gunshy, dogs that tuck their tail and hide when they hear a noise or see something strange -- I think most of those would indicate poor nerves.

But perhaps soft dogs would be on that continuum as well. Maybe as high functioning. They definitely need to be managed differently to get the best out of them. I do not see a problem with that. I think dogs are individuals, and it makes more sense for me to train them how they are programed to be trained, that me trying to push them the way I think they should go.


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## JakodaCD OA

My female aussie is a "soft" dog , tho I wouldn't call her lacking in nerve. She is definately noise sensitive, and does not take a harsh correction well at all. 

Masi on the other hand is like a bull in a china shop, you could blow off an atom bomb next to her and she'd be like 'huh?" what's the big deal? She WANTS to go out in thunderstorms, she can take a correction if needed, learn from it and move on, like 'ok got it, what's next?" 

I also tend to train my dogs as individuals, altho it would be nice if they ALL could be trained the same way,,it would help their inept handler anyhow


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## Samba

I guess I consider softness more in terms of reaction to pressure. Pressure can come from a variety of stimuli. While biddability is great, I don't consider that to be softness so much.Although I know many consider this "softness" to the handler. To me, softness is more of a sensitivity that has to be worked with and trained more carefully than some. 

Of course moderation is everything. It is when things go to the extreme that the dog is more difficult to work with. 

I do have a dog who will refuse to do exercises the first time. It is not hardness in him as he is very sensitive or soft to the handler. Some call it stubborness. I don't think of it as that and it is not particularly hardness in him. He's a smart one... kinda like a mule. There is a natural level of avoidance in him regarding new things, but it is not hardness. Twice last weekend the obedience judge came up me and remarked about is obvious willingness. Interesting creatures, dogs.

I too think a dog should be worked with as an individual according to their constitution. The issues arises more to me when breeding decisions are to be made.


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## W.Oliver

JakodaCD OA said:


> cliff I really think you should write a book,,I'd be the first one in line and of course would want you to sign it)


....or/and run a national organization dedicated to preservation of GSDs with solid nerve and the education of the public.


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## Ruthie

cliffson1 said:


> Whiteshepherds,
> By all means a dog can have great nerve and be soft. My DDR female that herds has great nerve but is much softer than my other dogs. The most important part of temperament, IMO, is nerve. Its not drive, like many uninformed believe, it is nerve. Its the easy thing to lose and hardest thing to gain. It should never be compromised. The nerve gives the nobility to the breed. The nerve allows the dog to handle the stress of new people, places and things. The nerve allows the dog to not have the worried look, and run from thunder, or do submissive urinating past puppyhood. The nerve allows the dog to be trained to high levels of functioning in any of the venues. The nerve allows the aggression component of the breed not to be a liability, or become a sharp shy biter which is nothing more than weak nerves. The nerve allows thedog to be protective of its own and its responsibility such as in herding or dogs for handicapped people. And I could go on and on. Yet as important as nerve is, there are many breeders that don't know nerve, don't understand nerve, and certainlydon't breed for it first. Soooooo you have dogs which if there behavoir is discussed you are bashing, instead of people saying who bred this dog with such poor nerves. Nerves are more important than hips or structure because a dog with nerve and moderate hips can still be of service to family and man. A dog with weak nerves and OFA excellent cannot be of use to man in service because stress will expose the dogs and make the dog unreliable in its task.
> Good nerves can be with soft dogs or hard dogs but without them you have the shell of a German Shepherd but not the essence.


Great information, Cliff, thank you. Can you also give us your definition of soft?


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## cliffson1

A soft dog is usually very biddable and wanting to please their owner. A soft dog does not usually challenge in the pack orientation and accepts their lot in the pack. A soft dog LOOKS to the handler or owner for the lead, but once shown, instinctive drive will carry them through. A soft dog often will have to go slower in training because the type of corrections and imprinting cannot overwhelm the dog. A soft dog usually responds better to praise which indicates to the dog pleasing the alpha. There are many variations of softness in the breed, but if you plug into the right training regiment they progress right along. A soft dog with good nerve will make an excellent seeing-eye dog, or SAR dog, or therapy dog. A soft dog WITH good nerve can make an excellent herding dog because the nerve allows the instinctive drive that the breed has to surface and kick in. Many dogs (including workingline dogs that don't have good nerve) don't do well in herding because they can't "cap" there drive. You often hear me criticize a dog "with more drive than brains",; with German Shepherds when you see this it is usually the drive is superior to the nerve so that the dog can't turn it off when directed or when in static state. This is faulty in workinglines and should not be bred for. 
Many WGSL dogs have excellent nerve, usually the lines that have substantial Mutz vd Pelztierferm in them. 
Continued backmassing on a few dogs will usually denigrate nerve or elevate something like singular structural aspects or specific drive to a point that the nerve is secondary and the working component of the breed starts slipping.
I'll close with this....the dogs with the best nerve make the best "PETS" and best "family" dogs besides having the ability to work. Why???? Because the strong nerve allows the dog to ADJUST to the specific variations of your home. Whether it is country living, apartment living, inside living, kennel living, city living, whatever. With great nerve we would greatly decrease the amount of dogs in shelters and even if in shelter would be so easy to rehome if necessary.
A true steward of the breed realizes these things and breeds for it first; for all of the above reasons and more. Psuedo stewards of the breed; breed for other things "first" and increase the type of dogs with the structural/mental issues that plague the breed. Isn't it amasing how many dogs today when you see them at 2 years old and they are fearful there is some story about how the dog was "abused" when it was young. You talk to a breeder who breeds dogs with weak nerves and you will often hear abuse in their vocabulary in justifying the reason the dog was returned or turned out like that. Dogs with great nerves DON'T turn out like that because they make the adjustment to their situation. This is the resilence of the breed that is part of its legacy and nobility. 
People who don't lose sight of the importance of nerve in their breeding don't get offended at my posts because they realize where I am coming from. Those who are breeding less than stellar nerve want to shoot the messenger instead of acknowledging the message. Nonetheless, when you explain to people the above it makes sense to them unless already indoctrinated.


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## Ruthie

cliffson1 said:


> A soft dog is usually very biddable and wanting to please their owner. A soft dog does not usually challenge in the pack orientation and accepts their lot in the pack. A soft dog LOOKS to the handler or owner for the lead, but once shown, instinctive drive will carry them through. A soft dog often will have to go slower in training because the type of corrections and imprinting cannot overwhelm the dog. A soft dog usually responds better to praise which indicates to the dog pleasing the alpha. There are many variations of softness in the breed, but if you plug into the right training regiment they progress right along. A soft dog with good nerve will make an excellent seeing-eye dog, or SAR dog, or therapy dog. A soft dog WITH good nerve can make an excellent herding dog because the nerve allows the instinctive drive that the breed has to surface and kick in. Many dogs (including workingline dogs that don't have good nerve) don't do well in herding because they can't "cap" there drive. You often hear me criticize a dog "with more drive than brains",; with German Shepherds when you see this it is usually the drive is superior to the nerve so that the dog can't turn it off when directed or when in static state. This is faulty in workinglines and should not be bred for.
> Many WGSL dogs have excellent nerve, usually the lines that have substantial Mutz vd Pelztierferm in them.
> Continued backmassing on a few dogs will usually denigrate nerve or elevate something like singular structural aspects or specific drive to a point that the nerve is secondary and the working component of the breed starts slipping.
> I'll close with this....the dogs with the best nerve make the best "PETS" and best "family" dogs besides having the ability to work. Why???? Because the strong nerve allows the dog to ADJUST to the specific variations of your home. Whether it is country living, apartment living, inside living, kennel living, city living, whatever. With great nerve we would greatly decrease the amount of dogs in shelters and even if in shelter would be so easy to rehome if necessary.
> A true steward of the breed realizes these things and breeds for it first; for all of the above reasons and more. Psuedo stewards of the breed; breed for other things "first" and increase the type of dogs with the structural/mental issues that plague the breed. Isn't it amasing how many dogs today when you see them at 2 years old and they are fearful there is some story about how the dog was "abused" when it was young. You talk to a breeder who breeds dogs with weak nerves and you will often hear abuse in their vocabulary in justifying the reason the dog was returned or turned out like that. Dogs with great nerves DON'T turn out like that because they make the adjustment to their situation. This is the resilence of the breed that is part of its legacy and nobility.
> People who don't lose sight of the importance of nerve in their breeding don't get offended at my posts because they realize where I am coming from. Those who are breeding less than stellar nerve want to shoot the messenger instead of acknowledging the message. Nonetheless, when you explain to people the above it makes sense to them unless already indoctrinated.


Thanks! A "soft" dog sounds great to me, why is this term usually used in the negative. Is it because people don't seporate this characteristic from nerve and use it to mean "weak nerved"?

I also appreciate the clear definition of nerve. I think it is important to understand that nerve isn't just about being courageous. It can also be about having the ability to cap their drive, very well said. I wonder if this is what people are talking about when they say that the WL have too much drive, because IMO a ton of drive has little to do with the annoying behaviors and the ablitiy to control the drive has EVERYTHING to do with the annoying behaviors. I can see this difference clearly in the dogs I have owned.

The drive under control what I describe as passion for the work, when the dog channels everything he has into the task at hand. I don't see that with dogs who do not have high drive and in my limited experience they have all been SL or BYB dogs. (And let me just say once again, I am not saying ALL SL are like this, it is just that the ones I have seen are SL.)


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## GSD07

cliffson1 said:


> ...the dogs with the best nerve make the best "PETS" and best "family" dogs besides having the ability to work...


 That's what I believe. Average people just don't have the skill to manage a weak nerved dog so they better have (or start with) a very sound working dog as a pet.


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## Samba

It does not have to be a working line dog to be sound though, it just has to be a dog of good nerve structure.


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## cliffson1

So right Samba....priorities, priorities,priorites, whether you want show, work, sport, family or pet....breeders have to breed for that first and THEN what they like, and the breed would stay fine for everybody:wub:


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## Samba

My female with a lot of DDR in her is also soft and biddable. I only put a leash on her when I realized she was going to have to wear one in competition. She was completely trained off lead with little reinforcement other than "good girl" required. Needless to say she is the best one to take herding. But she is not too soft.

I have a BC who can be at times a bit too soft for me. She is likely to run to a judge and roll over if they speak a bit emphatically when calling a pattern. Or a show GSD female who practically rolls over and turns inside out for a judging exam. She can look like she is cringing but actually she is sound and social, just very soft. In these dogs, for me the softness is a bit too much.

It is priorities. I have seen plenty sacrifice nerve and stability for other features in a dog when breeding. You bet it happens. We all know the places where it is most likely to occur.


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## cliffson1

Another little secret, if you breed that way, regardless of your use of the dog, you will eliminate lines and extremes. How about that!!
Why???, (sigh GSD-202) because if you breed by phenotype(that's breeding look alike to look alike to maintain a type or trait) or geneotype(that's breeding same genetic dogs to maintain a type or trait), then you willrun out of dogs to breed to KEEP the nerve component first in the breed. So if you are German showline of today then you would have to go to a sable or black or bi-color to get the nerve strength up to a level of first importance. You see WGSL have been trying to improve temperament by phenotype; that is breeding the best tempered dog that is still black and red to improve temperament. Won't happen; because this Black and red dog of good temperament, is STILL the immediate cousin (and thus genetically)of the black and red dogs who you are trying to improve on temperamentally. They just can't give up that black and red....argh!!!(Ever hear me talk about ego and money killing the breed). So every year at the Seiger show, the protection part where you can see a little of nerve strength is always the same, much less see dramatic improvement. The same with ASL, they are bringing in WGSL to improve temperament, (you don't think they are going to WGSL to lessen sidegait do you???). Nevertheless, the unintended consequence of this is a more moderate dog that people are saying the ASL are moving towards. BUT they couldn't do it without going to dogs that are Lance and Sundance free. (Is this starting to make sense)??
UT OH...have to go to grandson's midget football game or wife will keep me. I will further explain this if people want later this afternoon, if this is boring or some feel bashing...hey its cool I understand.
Cliff


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## Samba

That would be great if you can return.

I am off to a conformation match. I will try to assess.


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## Wilhoit

Thank *you all* for your explanations of what "soft" is.

Special thanks to *Cliff* for explanations of "nerve." Please give us more on sane breeding and breeding for nerve above all. I keep reading that crossing lines gives unexpected and negative results for GSDs, but I know that inbreeding and, I would think, much linebreeding gives us mental and physical weakness and disease in humans and other creatures. Please explain for us. I would like to learn how to read a pedigree just to find a GSD who is sound of mind and body.

The OP asked whether we agreed with the *splits.* The splits drive me crazy. They just make learning about correct GSD temperament that much more difficult. I discovered the splits shortly after I got Wilhoit (a rescue) in late '03, and was trying to educate myself on his temperament to best train him. I couldn't recognize him in any of the lines, but didn't realize that the examples of each that I came across were just inferior examples of GSDs. This thread has been a revelation. I couldn't figure out where Wilhoit's stellar temperament came from. He seemed like a throwback to the GSDs from years ago. I am now starting a long research process to find another dog. Wilhoit passed recently--his body was plagued with problems that I know are genetic: spondylosis, the EPI which took him, one dysplastic elbow, and an underactive thyroid). So the education you all are giving in this thread is a very pressing concern to me and, I am sure, to many others.

The OP also asked whether we thought it is possible for someone to be an ethical, reputable, high-quality breeder of *'pet lines' GSDs*". As someone who is not planning to buy a dog to become a breeder or to win in competitions, I probably qualify as a pet owner. I do plan to train the dog in schutzhund and/or herding, depending on availability and as far as the dog will go. So, a pet-lines GSD breeder will definitely not fill the bill. I am looking for the best in the way of temperament, trainability, and health. If these three areas are not tested and bred for, how can I narrow the odds in my favor? So, no to that question. The lines don't matter to me, although I was told that Wilhoit was working lines by the few WL people I came across. He had very good nerves and the ability to retain a cool head in the few emergencies I could not avoid with him. He could think for himself, but had an over ride button, so I could always control him. He was peacable and polite to everyone he met, but showed social agression in a couple of emergencies. He liked to please me and was a pleasure to train. He was nothing like the hard headed or shy dogs I saw in obedience classes, nor was he like the few WL dogs I met, who tended to be a bit uncontrollable and not that focused on their owners. Thanks to Cliff, I now know that was just bad nerves that couldn't cap a stimulus to their drives and probably low biddability. I mention these things because I am probably typical of many pet homes that believe in training their dogs in whatever discipline they can be trained and want a dog who can go anywhere with them. No, we don't want pet lines!


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## trudy

Cliff yes come back and continue explaining is not bashing, bashing is saying all what ever is bad, no explanation just stay away from Sl's. I hate hearing bashing but love explanations and the agreement that all lines have faults and all breeders are or should be aware of them.. That only by knowing and acknowledging that can we all move forward. Since I don't breed and after having Belgians for so long I wanted a dog who could do it all and I called a long time friend and she had been training and breeding for over 35 yrs and she gave me kennel suggestions, some I walked quickly away from but did find my guys. The few WL's I met were over the top and had no off switch, and although not aggressive, I felt were too much for me. Especially since special needs kids are in and out of my home often,, nice to know there are off switches and what most people like would be what I like. Calm stable, trustworthy dogs who can go everywhere and be around people with out attacking car windows, lunging at doors, but sitting quietly and under control. 

Nice to get an explanation of nerves and soft or hard tempered, and an understanding that all dogs lie somewhere on this graph with personal preferences able to match the correct one to your home situation. Must have rock solid nerves!!!!!


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## Chris Wild

Excellent information, Cliff.

This might not be the best place for it, or it might, but how you have defined "soft" is not a definition I have heard used elsewhere and I'd like to dig into this more.

The common definition of soft vs hard, in my experience anyway and I've heard this pretty consistently from many, many different people, is with regard to resiliency. A soft dog being one who does not recover well, and can be shut down by negative experiences. And a hard dog being one who recovers immediately and bounces right back after a negative experience. That negative experience can come in any form... leash correction, verbal correction from the handler, stick hit from the helper, getting a foot stepped on or a tail caught in the door or anything else.

My experience is that many dogs are soft in general to everything, others are hard in general to everything, and some are quite hard in all respects except to the handler. There are dogs who are very hard in the general sense, but show the same biddability, desire to please and easy trainability and directability you described. I have always viewed that handler sensitivity as a separate trait, one rooted in pack drive, and not the same as hard vs soft. I have a house full of dogs like this that and I would not call them soft dogs at all, but they are handler sensitive.

I also think like any trait, these things exist on a continuum, and extremes are never good. A dog who is so handler sensitive that it cannot work through any pressure or negative feedback from the handler, is overly affected by changes in the handler's mood or voice or body language, and has it's working attitude harmed by this, is too far to one end of the spectrum and can be very difficult to work with, or even live with at times. But of course the dog who is so 'handler hard' that it will not take direction or leadership and has no desire to work with the handler is too far at the other end of the spectrum and absolutely incorrect for the GSD.

I guess I have always viewed hardness/softness from a general standpoint and then as it relates to the handler as two very different things. Most dogs who are soft in general are also soft to the handler, and many dogs who are hard in general are hard to the handler, but one can have a dog who is quite hard in general but still somewhat soft to the handler, and to me that is the way a GSD should be.


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## JakodaCD OA

no expert here, but Chris, you defined soft/hard the way "I" define it is as well, but you put it into words much better than I ever could


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## Xeph

This thread has taken on a whole new life (perhaps it can be split?) but I have to ask...if two people have two different definitions for "soft/hard" which does one person use? And if you choose the definition that Chris used (for example) what words do you use to describe what Cliff explained (and visa versa)?


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## Whiteshepherds

This is all really interesting, (nerves) I hope a moderator can break it off into another thread. Lots of "ah ha" moments going on at my end.


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## cliffson1

Chris,
Let me elaborate on my definition. The soft/hard definition you gave is the standard one that is used in working circles. When talking to working people about dogs I use that definition also. But the context that I felt was asked was in reference to a dog with good nerve, and I felt an obligation to explain it in such a way that new people and nonworking breeders could conceptualize. So this definition is really of a wider scope so that it doesn't sail over the people's head who wouldn't understand resilency, especially in regard to training. Often people can relate to things they have seen, better than terms, especially if they aren't familar with the arena. 
I have seen millions(as have you) of SL people show or tell me a dog that they thought was hard, and the dog was really nervy with weak nerves. Now I'm not picking on showline people I am just saying when you work with working dogs you understand the term hard, when you don't work your dogs(And I don't mean I've done a little of this or that), your point of reference on hard and soft could be miles apart. 
Case in point...when the show Dobe people in our club refer to a hard dog it is always a dog with aggression traits. You and I know that aggression has nothing to do with hard and most aggression in the breed stems from insecurity(codeword...weak-----lol). But in their mind this is hard because they don't have a good point of reference on good resilency because in their circles it barely exists. 
I did the temperament test of the WAC exam for Dobes two years ago. These were all showline dobes and 20 out of twenty-four were Champions or had majors. Out of 24 dogs I saw no really hard dogs, but about 6 or 7 showed aggression towards the decoy(me). 
Afterwards you should have heard these owners/breeders talking about how hard the dogs that showed some aggression were. I didn't even bother to comment because the aggression in almost every case was from weak nerves and could be readily seen. 
So that is why i explained things in the way I did, so that people could have something concrete to visualize as soft. 
Where would a good topic be to followup on the breeding aspect that I was speaking on??


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## Rei

I have not read the last 3 pages, but have a (maybe stupid) question - Chris, you see handler sensitivity separately from softness/hardness (something I have never thought about, but after reading your explanation, agree with), but are they entirely separate, or is there a great deal of overlap? 

Is it common to see German Shepherds who are handler sensitive but very hard overall? I have commonly seen dogs that are soft and handler sensitive, or soft and handler insensitive, and while I do not believe one trait directly affects the other, I do wonder about the overlap in these genetics. 

Also, what about genetic obedience/biddability vs. handler sensitivity, and the overlap with these two traits?

Going off on another Off Topic tangent, but would like to respond to this re: White GSDs a few pages ago...


Whiteshepherds said:


> Yes, it's the AWSA that's working towards breed separation. www.awsaclub.com
> 
> If the group you're referring to is the WGDCA this is their breed standard.
> http://www.wgsdca.org/thebreed/breedstandard.asp *The only colors they allow for in their standard are white and white with biscuit so obviously, their goal is to reproduce the white coat. *
> 
> Both groups still register their dogs with the AKC as German Shepherds, color, white.
> 
> Both groups continue to compete in AKC sanctioned performance and obedience trial and events. Both groups compete in these events as German Shepherds.
> 
> *Neither group may compete in the AKC conformation ring as they are all still considered White German Shepherds and the color is a fault. *
> 
> The AWSA wants to separate from the parent club and be recognized as a new breed.
> The WGDCA is willing to remain part of the German Shepherd breed and accepts the limitations the AKC imposes on them due to the color.
> 
> If you're not referring to the WGSDA would you mind letting me know what group you are referring to?


But one group competes under the UKC as White Shepherds and the other, as German Shepherds.

And no, I am not talking about the WGSDCA. The breeders I am thinking of are not members of that club. They are not breeders who breed for color, they breed German Shepherds - whites are simply a part of their breeding program  Their dogs are shown under UKC in conformation and do AKC and UKC dog sports/performance/obedience. 




Now to read the last few pages that popped up seemingly overnight!!


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## Samba

I didn't get to stay for temperament testing today as it got late. Would have been interesting. The last time I saw a gsdca temp test there were at least 20 conformation dogs and then a couple of us had WL dogs. I thought is was a fairly. Large sampling of the show lines anyway. The two WL dogs had the most positive scores of the day. some of the SL dogs did not pass.

I didn't find this outcome too surprising. I am not bashing and neither are others when they point out some obvious generalizations that a number of the members of particular lines exhibit. 

The test that day did generate some discussion as to the bringing in of German dogs to improve temperament. One breeder did not realize that the breed was split into working and show in German dogs. People can stay within their confines and lines and not really "touch" the breed in a larger context.

Today my son,who is largish and somewhat imposing, noticed that some of the dogs were a bit worried and reacted to him passing by them. This sort of thing is not desirable in temperament to me.

Cliff, if I were to take the most sound ASL dogs I could find, also would need to consider conformation, would it be difficult to improve temperament? Is the back massing of genetics in the lines going to sabotage the efforts? Would any. improvement be only fleeting? If I bred to a WL dog what benefit could be gained that would have any lasting effect?


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## Wilhoit

Both Chris and Cliff's explanations of soft were beneficial to me, a newby. Yes, I need word pictures so I don't get lost in abstract terms. If we don't get good explanations of bad traits and how to avoid them, we won't be able to avoid them. We also will no longer know what the good traits really are and how to find them. I don't see this as bashing at all. It's constructive criticism.


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## cliffson1

My post above that contained the reference to (gds202) was trying to give some insights to what it would take to reconcile the "splits" that the OP asked about in the first place. 
So to close this topic from me, let me say that the splits are a result of breeder's first priority being things like sidegait, color,(both black and red and dark/black sable), drives, big heads, size, and ofcourse ego and money. (Another misnomer....the biggest abusers of breeding for money is not BYB as you hear the uninformed on this list continually say, but rather it is the European Black and Red showline dog that because of ungodly prices being paid for them these days; they continue to breed back and forth into the same lines to keep this type, and make that money, at the expense and decline of the breed). 
Breeding for nerve first would necessitate that all these "line" breeders,(I mean ASL,WGSL, WL, DDR, Czech line) would have to go outside their type genetically to keep good nerve. If not the nerve starts to slip. If judges were educated or uncorrupt enough to make this as important as it should be in evaluating a German Shepherd, then extremes would leave and moderation would return. People are sheep and flock to breeding to and buying from the top ranked dogs in show or work. Extreme drives in the workinglines is just as bad as extreme structure in show because extreme eventually leads to mental and health issues summarized by mental health issues...lol (Couldn't resist that)
But if judges for structure don't factor this into their equation, or judges for trials become so dependent on performances based on extreme drives, then the sheep will flock to these dogs and you have the splits you have today. 
You see even in structure, good structure comes from the carriage of the structure. If the dog is not noble, sure, and confident in its presentation, how can it be top structure?? If it takes a handler to give a false impression of this nobility, sureness, and confidence, doesn't the judge realize that the handler's presentation is not going to pass genetically and the nervebag that is propped up by the expert handler will produce more of the same. If the workingline sports don't evaluate the nerve, and allow over the top drives with expert trainers to win because they prioritze the drive traits more than the nerve traits, the trainers ability will not pass through the genes when that dog is bred, the over the top drives will.
In closing, I will say one of the things that really infuriates me is the term "reputable" breeders. What the **** is reputable???? People with titles, certs, money to advertise, websites, and often not a clue as to what really breeding German Shepherds is. I prefer to use the term "responsible" breeders. For at least this indicates the breeder is striving to be a steward of the breed which I think is the minimum a breeder should be. There aren't many stewards of this breed left, IMO, and unfortunately, the people who are entrusted with being stewards, namely Judges, are often lacking in knowledge of the breed except in their little world, willing to sell out to money, and too weak to move the breed back to the middle. 
This is much more to the breeding problems in terms of the split then what I have brought up, but if we want to really make some changes it imperative to know where to start.


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## Vandal

Who would have thought when Cliff returned from Mamby Pamby Land, he would have brought Wayne with him? 

Sorry Wayne, we need another organization to "lead" like we need a hole in the head. The SV, once upon a time, did it right. Now we have displays like this "temperament test" after a number of "leaders" sent the breed in this direction. BTW, the best dog, I believe is an American bred male. Temar is the breeder and the dog shows a number of lines to Mutz, with the female decending to Ajax Haus Dexel...one of the toughest VA dogs of all time , and Anderl vom kleinen Pfahl. I only glanced at the pedigree briefly but that is what jumped out at me.


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## Samba

I swear that somewhere I heard a show person defend that the dog only needed to have enough nerve, etc to show. I could only sputter. Often the "activity" seems to take precedence over the "wholeness" of the dog. Judges come out of and exist in the same culture that creates their function. I suppose some are leaders and change agents but it takes many.

Some time ago the GSD spec ring instituted a simple temperament eval by the judge as part of each dog's individual eval. the dog is to be near the judge on a loose lead and willing to be approached with GSd confidence and aloofness. This test was not created out of nowhere. It came from the realization by the fancy that "Houston, we have a problem". Yes,some dogs awarded points could not withstand that type of simple test.
I see some judges who are strict with their criteria on this and others who ignore the requirement.

I do hope breeders who are dealing with lines that are bottlenecked and back massed so heavily will step out for some genetic strength. Will they recognize it when they see it?


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## cliffson1

Samba,
there are some American breeders that still breed very sound dogs. People who still have primary lines that go back to Bernd v Kallengarten, Troll v Richterbach, Hein, Bodo, Ajax v h Dexel, and some older American lines that didn't go the Lance of Franjo or Yoncalla's Mike route. But to be successful in the American Show Ring for past 40 years,(especially Specialty ring), there is a lot of backmassing. I think under breeding I will write a post on the difficulties of mixing the lines once you are so deep into backmassing. Its possible but it takes bitter medicine that most show people aren't willing to take.


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## Samba

We have the video Anne posted of some temperament eval. The site listed below recounts a lady's experience at the gsdca temp test. The evaluators told her that her off breed did better than many GSDs do on their breed eval.

I think that is a bit of a problem. But breeders will have to see it as a problem for change to occur.

Temperament Testing


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## dOg

What is backmassing,exactly? I gather it's massive breeding on a single line, but not sure.

Very educational thread! Thanks for that!

Anne- while it seems the NASS videos aren't too impressive, you don't actually say so, and the
clapping might cause misunderstanding. To me the hits are generally weak, the OUTs slow, and
some of the grips chewy, the drives adjusted for the weakness. Am I wrong?


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## Wilhoit

Anne, 

Which one was the Temar dog? It would be useful for this newby to know, so I can compare some of the others to him and start to learn what to look for. The few performances I've seen in the videos of the WUSV (sp?) in Spain did not look like most of these.

At what age/how far a long in their training are these dogs?


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## Vandal

Seems we do this every year but since the powers that be in all these organizations continue to claim that the test at these shows is going to get tougher every year but they never do, I guess we can do it AGAIN.

I am not going to tell you who the only dog in the two videos is that actually earned a pronounced rating. I will offer you the definitions of pronounced and maybe you can find the dog yourself.
BTW, that is what this test is supposed to be showing the judge. Which dogs are pronounced in the ability to deal with stress....or something like that. Used to be pronouced in courage, hardness and fighting drive but they watered the definition down also. Here are the definitions from the rule book . I posted these on another list some years back, so, maybe it has been changed once again, not sure, but it will give you a general idea. Hint: the dog is on the first video.

Pronounced: Self-confident, intense, goal-oriented and secure gripping and
holding, no negative reactions at the stick hits, close and attentive watching in the holding and guarding phases.
Small deviations from the above statements/opinions will still allow a
pronounced rating under certain circumstances.


Present: Deficiencies for example in the self-confidence, goal-oriented, in grip and stick behavior, as well as guarding phases.

Insufficient:
Lacking self-sureness, strong deficiencies with respect to hardness, and
disinterest in the helper. Leaving the helper before the judge's signal to thehandler to approach the dog will terminate the protection work.


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## Vandal

Nice how they fixed that off leash heeling the dog is supposed to do. Instead of asking to see a sufficient amount of it, they simply moved the highway markers so close to the blind, the dog only had to heel for five or six steps. Most of them would not have continued to heel had they set the test up correctly. Why is heeling important? Because many of these dogs cannot sustain enough "Umph" to bite once they are asked to do obedience.


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## Samba

Can't they find a way to do away with this evaluation altogether? 

I was thinking of weakness in the ASL dogs and after viewing the vids, I think I know several I can get to do that well at least.


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## cliffson1

Like I have been saying, when you try to improve something but use a different variation of the same something, the results will stay the same. LFor last ten years I have heard WGSL breeders saying we are going to improve on temperament, usually followed up by saying they are going to go to dogs with stronger temperament to improve. Yet, they still use the same Black and red genetic dogs, and every year the videos expose the truth. Oops...truth can be bashing on this forum, so I'll just sat watch the videos.


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## Vandal

Well, it is an interesting dilemma.Think about it.....if...like some of the show enthusiasts claim, they want the test to be harder, how many dogs would have been in the ring at the NASS? In case some do not know, pronounced is necessary in order to VA. IMO, if that is the case, that one Temar dog, was VA by default, because no other dog really was pronounced. How does a protection judge go in and wipe out the "competition" before the show ever really gets started? THAT is the problem because nowadays, this is about which organization "satisfies the customer". The NASS always has a higher entry than the USA Sieger Show because there is more fear of tough helper work and , for some reason, harder judging at the USA event. Because the USA Judges are known to be tougher, I guess the head judge conducting the protection portion was intimidating, even though he looked the other way most of the time. Again, it has become about money because these organizations need it, maybe now more than ever. So, I expect this to continue in an attempt to try to retain members who like this sort of thing. There is no motivation to change or to seek other bloodlines but if I were the breeder of that one dog, I would be proud even if my dog did not get the rating he , in reality, deserved. 
Now we will hear about how this is just a conformation event. If it were, the protection test would not be there. The GSDCA Nationals is a conformation event, this one was never intended to be JUST that.


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## Wilhoit

Thank you, Anne. That was great pedagogy! I also saved yr. post w. the definitioins. Personally, I prefer "courage, hardness and fighting drive". It's what I saw in my rescue and I'd never settle for less after seeing that. What especially bothered me was the dogs who kept looking back at the handler as if they did not understand what they were doing and also needed reassurance. I figured they must just have been beginning their training, so did not say anything about the obedience (don't know anything about schutzhund). Glad you did not like the heeling, either. Boy, those ladies at my dog's rescue sure found me a good dog!


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## Vandal

Those dogs are all SchH 2 and SchH 3 dogs, so yes...they just started their training. lol.


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## Vandal

Here is yet another video. interesting that the photographer sitting at the side of the field is more of a threat than the "bad guy".


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## Xeph

When my husband leaves the laptop home next week, I'm going to Borders to watch these videos, darn it!


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## Vandal

You're not missing much.


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## onyx'girl

These are too painful to watch...That was a photographer that trains with my group. 
A dog was looking at her in such a threatening way that she had to look away to "take away the threat" .
I think it is a shame that this is supposedly the "best" of showlines.
Shallow bites, chewing, dirty bites, no commitment, no obedience on and on. 
I really don't understand how they can even think they are ready to trial...


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## Xeph

> You're not missing much.


This I know, but what I'm interested in isn't so much the dogs as it is pairing what you're saying to looking at it (making it "real" so I can better understand).


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## Liesje

God those videos are awful!! A friend of mine was one of the photographers and one of the dogs actually went after her! Not sure if it's on the videos, I got sick of them and stopped watching. Isn't it embarrassing for the helpers to have to work this way? What happened to the heeling? It looks 4 times as short (not that all but a handful of dogs ever heeled anyway). Where are the actual drives and stick hits?!? Poor dogs...

ETA: OK I see it now. Sheesh! Well at least someone took the time to record and post *all* the "performances" without fancy editing (not that we're that dumb anyway). This looks like a new standard of suck.


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## Vandal

It's there in the last video I posted Lies....
I do have to say though that I will sit on the ground and be still like that and every dog put in front of me is somewhat disturbed. It is what they do after that though that says who the dog is. This dog didn't pass that test, at all. 
The helpers did not work the dogs correctly, so, I have little sympathy for them either.


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## Vandal

I did start to wonder if these videos were taken in Sweden where the stick has been outlawed. lol.


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## Liesje

I was thinking I'd enter my males so we could at least get the performance awards, but then I thought they would probably be confused about being worked like...that.


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## onyx'girl

There is no way I would want to be associated with any titles there...it wouldn't be something I would be very proud of if the competition was what was in those videos.


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## JakodaCD OA

I admit I know next to nothing about schutzhund but have to say I was not impressed


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## Vandal

I don't think if the rest of the dogs are terrible, the one dog who did well is less. It is not about comparing the dogs to each other, it is about comparing them to the test. True, there wasn't much testing but the dog that starts at around 2:40 into the first video I posted a few pages back, shows much better than the rest and the helpers stepped it up in response to the dog. The dog made them act like helpers. So, I will give that dog credit, he is a decent dog for sure.


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## Liesje

I liked that dog as well, and then I wondered whether I liked him b/c he is good, or because all the others were not close? That's depressing to me.


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## Vandal

The problem is that when the test is lacking, it can make good dogs not look as good as they are. I am not saying the dog is the best dog I have ever seen, just that he did all the exercises with a good amount of gusto and was clearly "pronounced". The rest were sufficient or insufficient but I am certain, only a few were rated that way.


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## onyx'girl

> The problem is that when the test is lacking, it can make good dogs not look as good as they are.


That is so true...


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## Liesje

Yeah that's what I was wondering. It's hard for me to really know what I'm looking at, even the better ones, because the "test" just seems so odd.


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## Wilhoit

After looking at that last video, it is now obvious to me that good obedience is impossible without an appropriate genetic makeup. I figured it was, but now I know. I also know I cannot just rely on titles when looking for another dog. Even I know that schutzhund 3 means learning a lot of very complex routines. I'm not shocked, I'm stunned! What I mean by good obedience is highly reliable off-lead work without the use of electric collars--just a dog who lives to work with you and for you. I going to look into sheepherding GSDs.


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## cliffson1

Its all Cliff's fault, if he didn't bash showlines the way he does, these dogs wouldn't be like that.


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## Xeph

CURSE YOU CLIFF!!! lol


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## Vandal

> After looking at that last video, it is now obvious to me that good obedience is impossible without an appropriate genetic makeup


This is a very intelligent observation that many would not take away from those videos. Maybe I am going to borrow it and use it over there in the titles thread. lol.


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## Doc

cliffson1 said:


> Its all Cliff's fault, if he didn't bash showlines the way he does, these dogs wouldn't be like that.


Cliff, you should be ashamed! Remember Cliff, it's ok if little Johnny German shepherd bites,barks and runs around like a chicken with its head cut off all day long - they are all winners. We can't point out any of the "challenges" that Johnny exhibits because we may mess his head up and we certainly can't do that - not in today's world. roflmao


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## Wilhoit

Vandal said:


> This is a very intelligent observation that many would not take away from those videos. Maybe I am going to borrow it and use it over there in the titles thread. lol.


Please help yourself. If you would be kind enough to start (and contribute!) to a discussion on obedience, genetics, bloodlines, individual dogs to look for in a in a pedigree, or anything else you think would help us learn about this, I have a backup ink cartridge ready and waiting!

Cecilia


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## dOg

The other day, I bookmarked this thread, and when I use it today, the thread has 20 pages, but once I log in and refresh just 10... that's odd, no?

So yes the test is lacking, and even lacking, does little to improve the "work" displayed.

So that just leaves an explanation of the term *"backmassing"* , not getting that,
help me out.

Also, while perhaps more vocal, I never thought of this board as primarily working line folks. Maybe a poll is in order.


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## Chris Wild

Backmassing = overabundance of the same dogs in the pedigree.

Same concept and potential genetic bottleneck as linebreeding, just further back in the pedigree than what is termed linebreeding (within the first 5 generations). A dog may not be "linebred", but when you get back 6, 7, 8 generations you see the same few dogs and/or littermates over and over and over again. So even though the dog isn't technically "linebred" he still goes back on the same few dogs in recent history and does not have good genetic diversity.


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## Vandal

6 gen. pedigree for VA1 Pakros d' Ulmental - German shepherd dog


I just picked one of the more famous show dogs. Thie link should be the six generation pedigree. You can go down the last generation and see many of the same names and when you click on those names, you will see how many of those dogs descend to Canto/Quanto. While not linebred on those dogs, they appear MULTIPLE times in the pedigree. I am sure there are dogs with even more but I don't feel like searching for them.


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## JakodaCD OA

actually I did like the dog in the first video, he was with a blond girl? but what I saw, and have no idea if it's 'correct' or not (I'm thinking not),,was alot of dogs biting the sleeve, letting go, going back for it, not outing, or going back for the sleeve after being outed?? sorta to get that last word in so to speak?? and most of them seemed to get more amped up, or want the helper "more", after they were put on leash??

Ok schutzhund for dummies here


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## Liesje

I think the nice dog is a SchH2 while most of the other high V and VA dogs brag about being SchH3 (some supposedly multiple times). Same thing happened at the USA SS a few years back where Boy had one of the best performances and was SchH1. Then the irony kicks in b/c the judges put dogs without SchH3 at the back even though some of the best performances are not SchH3 dogs...


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