# is my gsd blk/tan or blk/red please help....



## mharrisonjr26

Hello i have a 15 month old gsd and i would like to know what you think his color is. Also he was born 11/15/2010 ( 15 months) and only 70 pounds how big do you think he will be. his sire is czech 105 lbs red sable dam is blk/tn 70 lbs american lines. he hasnt gained *Any* weight since he was 9 months. please help mostly diamond naturals chicken and rice recently switched from dog chow. he does get some raw.


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## CeCe

He looks black and red to me. 70 lbs is within breed standard for a male. I think he is pretty much done growing. Good looking boy-you must be pleased with him.


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## Mrs.K

Not so sure if it is the lighting. In the last picture he looks more like B&T.


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## mharrisonjr26

Hes a good dog he really is so you dont think he will gain anymore weight


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## CeCe

Males can continue to fill out until around age 2 so he may gain another 10 lbs.


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## Mrs.K

He looks like he's got a healthy weight... at least from what I can see from the pictures.


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## mharrisonjr26

Yeah he def hasnt filled in yet he still skinny in the middle


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## mharrisonjr26

i appreciate you guys help i really hope i get alot of opinions


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## Mrs.K

He'll fill out. No worries. He's just 15 months old.


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## msvette2u

CeCe said:


> He looks black and red to me. 70 lbs is within breed standard for a male. I think he is pretty much done growing. Good looking boy-you must be pleased with him.


I think it's the lighting that makes him look red, it looks like they were taken at sunset.


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## mharrisonjr26

they were takin at about 2 o clock last thursday the reason im asking is for the very reason sometimes he looks b/t sometimes he looks b/r so i dunno. i would really like to know every ones guess for mature weight as well


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## Lucy Dog

Did you photoshop or edit those pictures at all? He looks black and red in the pictures, but they look edited except the last one where he looks more black and tan.


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## mharrisonjr26

No. If I wanted an honest opinion what would i gain by cheating this isnt like im advertising to breed. but def did not dont know i took the last pic with flash maybe i dunno. can i get a size at maturity i just cant recall any of my past pups being that skinny at his age.


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## Lucy Dog

Just asking... they just seem a little off (the pictures, not your dog).

What lines is he from? Do you have a picture of mom and dad? How big were they?


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## mharrisonjr26

no pic of mom and dad. im not sure what to call him his dad is all czech minus his grandmother who i believe maybe american and his mom is from what i see mostly american. Ezekiel second to None - German Shepherd Dog - his sire


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## Lucy Dog

Yeah... looks like a mix of lines on the sires side with the dam being american. Some of the sires info incomplete, so you're missing that part of the pedigree too. 

Typically, when you're talking about black and reds, that mostly applies to the west german show lines. The american lines are mosly black and tan, but also may be sable, black, and also white too, but not usually black and red. There is some west german show line in the sires pedigree, but not a whole lot.


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## mharrisonjr26

dad is a red patterned sable deep red and mom is black/tan i counted on his akc papers 6 sbl 4 blk tan and 4 blk and red


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## msvette2u

He's actually cream colored (light tan) underneath which indicates more of a black/tan coloration than black/red. 
As others stated, two of the pics look like they were color enhanced (even the grass looks red) while the 3rd doesn't have as much red going on and the dog's true color is more of a tan.


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## Emoore

Mature weight will probably be 75-80lb.


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## wildo

If you adjust the white balance on your camera, you can get a more accurate representation. Since the grass and trees have a orange/red hue in all three photos- the white balance is not correct making the dog appear more red.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/whitebalance.htm


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## msvette2u

Yeah, the colors in everything else are all wonky, too. The toy in the background appears neon green and I doubt it's actually glowing?


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## GSDGunner

Gunner changes color depending on the light.  Sometimes the red is really red and sometimes he it's more faded and he looks more tan.

Here's the difference in the lighting (just had a bath).
No flash:









A few seconds later, the flash went off. Look at how much more red he looks.









The pictures you took look like the flash made him redder than he really is.
Try taking the photos without the flash. My guess is he's like Gunner who is a mixture of both. Mom was bk/red Dad was bk/tan.


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## martemchik

With that much sable in the pedigree I'm surprised he's not a sable, unless its all on his dad's side. But I've never seen a patterned red sable so I don't know if thats quite the correct description of the dog. He was probably a sadle back with a prominent bitch stripe. Red doesn't show up often in sable colorations since it is kind of a western german trait and when those lines mix you either get one or the other.

I might be wrong, but just doesn't sound right to me.


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## JPF

*red sable*



martemchik said:


> With that much sable in the pedigree I'm surprised he's not a sable, unless its all on his dad's side. But I've never seen a patterned red sable so I don't know if thats quite the correct description of the dog. He was probably a sadle back with a prominent bitch stripe. Red doesn't show up often in sable colorations since it is kind of a western german trait and when those lines mix you either get one or the other.
> 
> I might be wrong, but just doesn't sound right to me.


Enzo is a red sable. I would describe enzo as a patterned red sable but I could be wrong?


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## mharrisonjr26

martemchik said:


> With that much sable in the pedigree I'm surprised he's not a sable, unless its all on his dad's side. But I've never seen a patterned red sable so I don't know if thats quite the correct description of the dog. He was probably a sadle back with a prominent bitch stripe. Red doesn't show up often in sable colorations since it is kind of a western german trait and when those lines mix you either get one or the other.
> 
> I might be wrong, but just doesn't sound right to me.


 
Im not new to the breed and i know the sables pretty well this is my second saddle my first was a deep blk/red wg showline and the rest have all ben sable dark and black. But dad is definently a patterened red sable and he does not have a bitch stripe. In my opinion i think my pup is blk/tn but everywhere i go people say blk/red and my breeder said he had some of both. Just wondering what all of you thought.


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## RubyTuesday

B/T. The red color is enhanced in all 3 pix. I'm not saying you deliberately enhanced the color, but there's an unnatural redness to all 3. Possibly due to the camera settings...perhaps the lighting.

By any color designation, he's a nice looking guy.


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## wolfspirit

I agree, there is something up with your camera setting as the colour in everything (even the roof of the houses) is too bright and enhanced so there is no way to accurately see his colour. 

I think he is black and tan though from what I can make out.


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## mharrisonjr26

here is a couple pictures from another camera same place so you can see.


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## Shaina

Those are much better! He does have a nice orange tint, but Im not sure if he'd be considered red. Gotta leave that to the experts. He is a very nice looking dog!


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## mharrisonjr26

Thank you very much i appreciate that comment I do like how he looks but im just a lil bit worried about his weight gain... thanks


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## cliffson1

He will drop his chest and fill out more between 2 and 3 years of age....at that time he will probably be 78 to 83 pounds. There are working line dogs that are black and tan and black and orange. Especially comomng through Ennov Aftrental and Bernd v Lierberg. Not as many today, but occaisionally you will see them. You could also get that color from the older American lines in the sixties and seventies. I had a female out of Stormhaven's Dolf who was black and red in early seventies.


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## carmspack

mharrisonjr26 said:


> here is a couple pictures from another camera same place so you can see.


 
Hi - this portion of the pedigree is Czech import stock with German show lines through "Bara" and that whole line is where the pigment problems come from Ezekiel second to None - German Shepherd Dog - 

dog appears to be black and tan with fading or poor pigment


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## msvette2u

The dog looks to be at a perfect weight for his bone structure.


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## mharrisonjr26

carmspack said:


> Hi - this portion of the pedigree is Czech import stock with German show lines through "Bara" and that whole line is where the pigment problems come from Ezekiel second to None - German Shepherd Dog -
> 
> dog appears to be black and tan with fading or poor pigment


why do you say he has poor pigment he has dark gums skin nails everything i just want to know what color he is and est. on final weight but i would like you to elabirate.


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## Jessiewessie99

mharrisonjr26 said:


> why do you say he has poor pigment he has dark gums skin nails everything i just want to know what color he is and est. on final weight but i would like you to elabirate.


There is nothing wrong with the dog having "poor pigment". It wasn't meant to be insulting.


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## SiegersMom

The pictures look like a photo filter was ran on the pics making everything look a bit red. I will say he is black and tan. Mine has dark red in a few spots but lighter tan and cream down the chest and underbody so I think that is what you have too.


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## carmspack

if the dog were to go into the ring this is one thing he would be evaluated on . Colour and pigment are subordinate, secondary to conformation , temperament, over all health and hardiness. The standard calls for rich pigment -- 

Acceptable colors in the shepherd coat are in fact a wide range of variations of black and tan. The color Black, is due to the presence of the eumelanin pigment, and varies in its degree of extension over the body. The Tan, on the other hand is due to the result of phaeomelanin pigment, and varies in richness or depth of color. A German Shepherd with good pigmentation will exhibit the Black extending at least over 50% of the body, accompanied with rich and uniform tan ground. The richness may vary in degree of depth of the color and may range from Golden to deep Mahogany marks

One of the faults that Canto Wienerau produced was fading pigment. 

New Page 1

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

It's not an insult . I showed you were it could be coming from - Canto and Quanto were known to produce poor / fading pigment.


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## mharrisonjr26

I dont take it as an insult im just discussing point of veiws. Trust me I greatly appreciate the feedback and im learning diffrent things. I am familiar with some geneology I just didnt quite understand how it applied to the standard. Would you not say he does not have black extention equal to 50%? Just asking questions im not offended by the truth.


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## mharrisonjr26

This is a picture of mom and dad.


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## Catu

Something I noticed is he already have some gray on his muzzle at 15 months old. My female started with those at about the same age and I've been told that is because of her poor pigment.


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## Xeph

Black and tan. He should be 80 lbs(ish) when mature.

Don't know why you're so worried about his weight, though.


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## mharrisonjr26

The reason is he hasnt gained any weight since he was 9 months old and i dont think thats normal..+ i just wanted opinions.


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## TheNamesNelson

First pics are enhanced to look red but in the next set he looks like a Black and Tan to me, with a red tint to his tan. My dog also has a more red tint to his tan. He looks like a Black and Tan until hes next to many other black and tans then you can notice there is more of a red tint to him, still tan compared to real reds.


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## TheNamesNelson

Also he is 70lbs, that's a healthy weight, in your pics he looks to be a proper size so I wouldn't worry about his weight at all. German Shepherds aren't supposed to be 100lb beasts, some may be, but its not the regular so if your dog is 70lbs that doesn't make him small. He will probably fill out and be an 80lb adult. Good healthy weight.


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## doggiedad

the pic in your avatar and the 1st pic in the thumbnail
are the same pic. the thumbnail seems enhanced.
judging by your avatar he's blk&tan. how do you not
know what color your dog is?


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## Zisso

> how do you not
> know what color your dog is?


I didn't know that there was such a thing as 'red' until I got Zisso. I actually started to register him for his microchip as black & tan until I saw that I could call it as I saw it-black and red. And that is after already having a GSD before. Sometimes the difference is, at least in my case, education


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## mharrisonjr26

doggiedad said:


> the pic in your avatar and the 1st pic in the thumbnail
> are the same pic. the thumbnail seems enhanced.
> judging by your avatar he's blk&tan. how do you not
> know what color your dog is?


 Firstof all i know what color my dog is i was getting opinions he is registered as a black and tan he just has alot of red tint so i wondered if he has been considered black and red for those of you who have not read the whole thread. I have always had dark/black sables and a black female this is my first black and tan.

@ nelson I know how big they are supposed to be ive never had a 100lb gsd. max 95-98 lbs. I know my dog is not small everyone thinks he is rather large. He just hasnt gained any weight since 9 months thats all thanks.
p.s. When i took new pics from diffrent camera i just tried to match that pic as close as i could with the right colored pics.


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## mharrisonjr26

Here is another pic


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## mharrisonjr26

here is another pic


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## Xeph

Black & red IS black & tan...the red is just "enhanced". I don't even know why black and red is even a registration option, honestly.

It is normal for weigh gain to slow around your puppy's age. He will gain a little more weight as he matures, but it's nothing to be concerned about.


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## Gretchen

He looks black/red. I would not be so worried at his color classification, all that really matters is that you love him.


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## mharrisonjr26

Again I thank everyone for your insight last month when i weighed him he was 69.2 pounds to be exact that was jan.20 that was 34 days ago. today we went to the vet after a morning walk through the woods and he is 75.4 pounds @ 15 months 8 days . It must have been the tapeworms. He is a great dog and I am very pleased just was a lil worried about his lack of weight gain. Also as i said i Registered him black and tan but to me compared to alot of b/t he seems more red but honestly it doesnt matter just good discussion.


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