# Dog's behavior before and after protection training.



## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

_*Hey guys, i would like to know more about protection training benefits.
how was your dog's behavior before protection training and after protection training
thanks and have a nice day *_


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

The same


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Gryffon the same. He switches it on and off as needed. This comes from appropriate temperament - either the dog has it or not. 

Keeta's got better. Boosted her confidence and gave her a positive, rewarding outlet for her energies.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

R-a-m-b-o said:


> _*Hey guys, i would like to know more about protection training benefits.
> how was your dog's behavior before protection training and after protection training
> thanks and have a nice day *_


Many years ago we had a GSD who had let in a burglar. I had him protection trained on the advice of the police who investigated the scene. After a month the dog came back and bit a neighbor child on the head and became very aggressive towards others. He was a gentle dog before and the training had ruined him. I think that whole biting training has confused the heck out of him. It was heartbreaking. WD will never be subjected to this. His looks and obedience for me will do plenty.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> Many years ago we had a GSD who had let in a burglar. I had him protection trained on the advice of the police who investigated the scene. After a month the dog came back and bit a neighbor child on the head and became very aggressive towards others. He was a gentle dog before and the training had ruined him. I think that whole biting training has confused the heck out of him. It was heartbreaking. WD will never be subjected to this. His looks and obedience for me will do plenty.


This is a perfect example of an unsuitable dog being ruined by bad training. Not your fault, you trusted the advice of the police, who probably had no insight into the temperament of your dog, and you trusted the trainer, who was unscrupulous and used questionable methods to train a dog that was not cut out for protection training in the first place. That is why when there is a discussion about the safety/dangers/appropriateness of protection training, the answers focus more on the correct temperament of the dog vs. the training itself (assuming the training is done properly).

The best training in the world won't make a dog with an incorrect temperament for protection into a safe protection dog. 

A dog with the correct temperament and the right training can tap into their inner natural protectiveness and bring it out when appropriate.

I'm really sorry you had this bad experience wolfy dog, I can see how that would affect you - another reason why in general people won't recommend sending a dog away for protection training, and those of us who are interested in Protection training for real or for sport, find a club or a good trainer and do the training ourselves.


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## Thorny (Nov 4, 2012)

I've been taking Gunnar to PP classes since he was a small pup. Most of this class is comprised of obedience, since that is what's required more so than hard biting.

When we transition to the actuall bite scenarios its clear to all present who's dogs love this, and who's dogs obey as a service to the owner and who's dogs are not interested.

After participating for the last 10 months I've seen people come and go. I've seen all dogs grow in their obedience and some dogs have really grown to be good at biting on command. 

I've also seen the trainers tell some folks that their dog is not stable enough or does not have the right personality for PP work. 

As for my dog, he's learning obedience more than anything else and I'm learning training commands and how to read my dog. The bite work is sort of like the excitement that makes both of us love to go to obedience class.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Before: Excited.
After: Exhausted. 

 Just kidding.

Zefra is very capable of turning it on for protection and shutting it right off when the threat has dissipated.

She has actually come off the field and hung out with little kids right after (field side) when she was completed. Totally happy and WIGGLY to be around the babies.


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## Nashoba's mom (Mar 17, 2014)

*protection training for family dog*

I also have some questions on if I should or should not do protection training with our 10 month old male. We have a lot of kids ranging from 4 to 13 in our family and plenty of friends that come and go. We did a practice run with a gentleman who is a retired police dog trainer. He had me hold Nashoba by my side and he then acted strange and sort of longed toward me. It only took about 2 tries and my dog went nuts barking. We then had him approach in a friendly manner with my command 'it's ok' and he seemed good. I just don't want to teach my dog to be mean to just anyone but I fear he could become more on guard just in general. Is this a good idea with so many children in our home? He does seem naturally protective anyways with no training.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Nashoba's mom said:


> I also have some questions on if I should or should not do protection training with our 10 month old male. We have a lot of kids ranging from 4 to 13 in our family and plenty of friends that come and go. We did a practice run with a gentleman who is a retired police dog trainer. He had me hold Nashoba by my side and he then acted strange and sort of longed toward me. It only took about 2 tries and my dog went nuts barking. We then had him approach in a friendly manner with my command 'it's ok' and he seemed good. I just don't want to teach my dog to be mean to just anyone but I fear he could become more on guard just in general. Is this a good idea with so many children in our home? He does seem naturally protective anyways with no training.


IMHO never with so many kids around and coming and going. You may end up with a big problem like me in the past. And I think you took a huge risk putting him to the test before he was trained what to do. It can easily turn bad when he starts to consider everyone that comes in your home to be crazy. To me it is playing with fire. I would work on his calm behavior in the presence of you and others.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

I have to agree with Wolfy dog there's too many children in your household, friends where the dog could get confused it would be a potential nightmare for you.

On the flipside, I remember seeing a television program regarding the Connecticut cat burglar that was stealing sterling silver in some of the highest income areas in the state. He was befriending the animals so at certain points and circumstances somebody who's a dog person might be able to slip by certain animals.

I would suggest training the dog yourself that way you know what training the dog goes through and that it's not being abused just to be mean. One bad attack and you and the dogs are in big trouble, it's just not worth it, if it's only stuff.


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## Nashoba's mom (Mar 17, 2014)

I appreciate your comments....and I didn't mean he has no training whatsoever....he already does basic obedience perfectly. Sit, down, stay, come, heel and back up. I can command him on a down and walk VERY far away and he will only come upon command and will then come to a sit in front of me. He's always been a very keen watcher and when I was heeling him at a sit that is when our retired friend told me he was gonna approach me in a leery manner....my dog doesn't like when people act unsure so that is what got him barking. We never did anything beyond that but I do, like I said, have 3 kids of my own 4, 10 and 13 and my 4yr old acts nuts ( as most kids do ) and I don't want him to freak him out if he's been trained to act that way. I take my dog everywhere with me and the guy told me not to let just anyone pet him....that I want him to be leery and up til then I always had people pet him because I dont' want an antisocial dog. I think he has a natural tendency to protect with out formal protection training. All we were looking for was a word for him to associate alert to and nothing more. I don't want to teach actual bite but to an unknown aggressor it would appear that if I gave a word and he barked protectively that he would bite. Does this make sense??


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## Nashoba's mom (Mar 17, 2014)

let me add since I didn't clarify that he is neutered and lives with 5 other dogs....another fixed female shepherd, a pit lab mix, keeshond mix, beagle/rat and doxie pin. All of them get along great.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If the training is correct...it shouldn't matter how many children are in the home. Also, if the dog is sound, it shouldn't matter. But the way your dog was tested...was completely idiotic. What you want is an obedience exercise. If a stimulus is needed to get your dog to bark "aggressively" then you have the stimulus there, but it should always be under control and you focus on turning your dog off rather than on. It's a pointless exercise if you can't turn your dog off with a single word/command.

IMO...bite work needs to be started in prey...the "trainer" threw your dog into defense right away which teaches the dog that if it feels in danger it needs to react in that way. Completely incorrect, the dog needs to react that way on YOUR terms and if it learns that its alright to react that way whenever it feels threatened...well then you have a problem dog on your hand because your dog is likely to feel threatened in situations where a rational person would not. The fact that your dog "doesn't like when people act unsure" just reinforces the fact that this is a dog that doesn't need to be taught anything in defense because there are A LOT of people that are going to act unsure around a GSD.

Anyways...if you're going to train anything, don't do it with that trainer. I don't care how long he was training dogs, its clear that his methods are not what you need.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Zeus and protection training.*

We had our Zeus (now 17 months) in protection training like that the OP describes...should have been mostly obedience but had some helter skelter bite training mixed in.

Result was a dog that did obedience OK but was totally confused about protection. We took him out of that training and he's doing much better now. He's socializing with people well and is losing some of his unduly induced suspicion of people (but for the Vet, of course, who he despises).

I liken his aptitude for protection training to the aptitude my then 8 year old son had when we tried to get him to play the piano. The simple fact was that neither of them was well-suited to the training by temperament. Zeus just doesn't like to bite (really anything but a kong) and my 8 year old would rather have been in the out-of-doors.

We were wise to discontinue both types of training.

We may have Zeus re-evaluated nearer his second year of life. But I'm not pressing for it. He already alarm barks on the property when anyone comes to the property and he can be easily commanded to hackle-up and growl at anyone or anything. So, how much more protection do we need, anyway?

LF


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

The same personality, but Hunter comes home happy and tired. For some reason I can run him all I like, but the weekend is when he gets his real physical work out / mental work out... Hunter has an on/off switch so he is totally normal when we aren't working/training.


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## Nashoba's mom (Mar 17, 2014)

your input is very helpful thank you.....I think i'm gonna just focus on finishing his obedience school and go from there. Perhaps agility or dock diving ( both of which are offered in the dog club we are in ) Last nites class verifies what you said about him being usure about strange people. A lady's dog next to me ( bichon ) decided it wanted to start barking at the pitbull next to her and wouldn't stop. The womans husband, to try and break the dogs concentration, ran up to him and clapped his hands. Sort of the same agitation that the man we worked with did to my dog to get him to react. Mine went on guard and after that had his eye on him. At the end of class, I asked if he could meet Nashoba to show him he isn't a bad guy and he was happy to be pet by him. I also didn't like the instructions for me not to let anyone pet my dog. 

If I did want to teach him a word to do a guard bark how do I do it? and am I wrong in taking him out with me everywhere to experience people and be pet? I had an antisocial shepherd that passed away from bloat right after Thanksgiving and Nashoba was rescued as his replacement. Knowing how unpredictable my old dog was, that's why I was gonna over socialize Nashoba. All we were looking to do with the man we met was to teach him a command to 'alert' which would just be a good deep bark when we felt the need....other than that I want a good family dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Isn't the fact that he IS a GSD enough of a deterrent for most people? Do you feel unsafe where you live?
DDog is now only 4 months and for the first time someone already picked up their kid when I came into a store with him. GSDs are hard to read for people who don't know them. And don't worry if he is friendly to strangers. When something happens that is out of the ordinary, like an intruder or someone who has bad intentions towards you, I am sure he'll do what you hope he'll do. At least he'll bark, that's what you know and that is enough for most people. Just enjoy him.


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## Nashoba's mom (Mar 17, 2014)

I agree......thank you again for the input. We are socializing daily and letting him meet and greet people in public.....
Not sure if my profile pic is showing but I think he's intimidating by just his looks too.
Protection training isn't worth ruining my dog....i'd never forgive myself if someone got hurt.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> If I did want to teach him a word to do a guard bark how do I do it?


You need one of your friends to help you. Have your dog on a long leash and play ball with him. Hold your dog back and let your friend fetch the ball and hide it behind his back. Come closer with your dog to your friend's front, say some word in a hissing intriguing voice ( say "Feind!" or "Wer ist das?") and just wait when he starts to bark - your friend should throw the ball after a couple of barks, then after 10 barks as a reward. Do not ask yourself to bark , your friend should ask him "Voice" if he doesn't bark, otherwise your dog would learn to bark at you instead of the person you want him to bark at. When your dog learned it with your friend and barks not less then 10 times on command, start asking strangers "Please, can I ask my dog to bark at you? He is a bad barker..." and repeat exercise with the ball. The ball should be thrown in the air immediately after barking, do not ask too young children to help you training your dog, they wouldn't understand the required and you may end up training them, not your puppy.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I personally don't think a house full of kids is a good place for a dog trained to a high level in pp (trained in a lot of defense civil type scenarios) 

Not because the dog is going to hurt the kids but kids are constantly bringing friends over and they play fight and get goofy etc.. I don't think thats a good place for a dog with strong aggression/civil drives or with a lot of social aggression. Kids love to run in and out and do all sorts of silly things. A balanced dog can get use to it but a lot of these dogs become really protective over kids,


ALso pp dogs have trigger commands like a bite command a bark command a kid will use this to their advantage to scare people or scare their friends. Dogs are allowed to bite any area of the body they want and are encouraged to do it. Its just not a good situation JMHO


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

ALso some trainers with pp dogs do have kids but they are very strict parents (when it comes to their dogs) and their child will get in a lot of trouble for doing something like picking up a clatter stick for fun etc...

Kids love to copy their parents and will want to do what they see at home.


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## RalphH (Sep 1, 2015)

Who did you use in Colo Spgs for your training


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## Hera the GSD (Aug 22, 2015)

RalphH said:


> Who did you use in Colo Spgs for your training


Check out Rick Walkley (Walkenstrutt training). He's in COS and he's great.


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