# Outcross



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I found this article on outcrossing vs. linebreeding. 

Ehret German Shepherds - Breeding Announcements

As a biologist, it does make a lot of sense. I find it interesting, though, that outcrossing is more likely to improve on the parents if done correctly?

Breeders, is this what you've seen, and what do you consider an outcross?


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I’m very interested in this topic as well.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

From a bit of research, it looks like such outcrosses are fairly common in racehorses as well. The first time, the offspring is an improvement on the parents (or can be), and then is bred back to the lines. Continual outcrossing just melts down the characteristics you want unless you really know your lines super well and get lucky with what is passed on. 

Kind of makes sense to me. It seems like it can be a difficult task to create pups that are better than the parents... I actually don't see that super often. You get studs that are used all the time- but reproducing themselves almost never happens. Likewise with bitches, although one bitch has less of an influence because she can only be bred so many times. 

And then there are the eurohounds, where the outcrosses with pointers from Alaskan husky lines (not a breed but tightly linebred) has produced some incredible dogs and litters. But rarely have the offspring of these outcrosses produced superiorly... and KNPV-X malis. Interesting concepts...


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Isn't there a function on Pedigee.com that has this line bred, back cross information in pedigrees of GSDs? .


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if breeders were able to keep entire litters for a few generations, to raise them all the same, and then to see which dogs - if any - were better or equal or worse than what was intended. I think sometimes it's hard to see a dog become superior in any form because it can depend on which dog they decide to keep, if any, and where said dog goes to, what the training undergoes, etc. The differences between a dog at 7 weeks vs. 12 weeks is quite substantial and can take many by surprise, in my opinion.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

complex topic for sure -- but a solution is not in out crossing within a breed.

Nature sure doesn't care about breed purity - that is a human construct - artificial selection. 
Look at the examples used in the link's article -- improvements on soft ears -- a cosmetic concern .

here is a link my (genomic) biologist friend sent the other day - may as well use it on this thread 
the role of epigenetics -- so in this little clip they mention pigs and I will take a brief departutre
from dogs to illustrate how a physical attribute changes by selection - aka human interference.H

Hogs, pork , pigs - were first domesticated in Asia . As the wild hogs enjoyed benefits , and ultimately
the bad when they became a "dinner" --- physical traits changed , including body shape , colour , and
ears - from upright to large and floppy.

The exact thing happened with the Belyayev fox experiments -- although foxes - (which are said to make
delightful pets ) . Drop ears --- spotting . 

back to the porkers --- the "domesticated" pigs started to be taken and traded along the silk road to western
countries , where they became yet again changed through selection .

North America ? No pigs -- Not until european explorers made contact . Pigs were carried on board ship as a convenient food supply - the pigs were able to eat anything including waste - the meat was easily preserved , and they took up little room. 
The first pigs arrived with De Soto to Florida - a "lucky" 13 who were dropped off to secure a reliable food source whenever there were return trips . But -- pigs being resourceful you had some escapees.

Those half dozen domesticated pigs are the genetic ancestors of those virtually indestructible 
invasive , feral hog in North America.
Of course there may have been some breeding to another clutch of domesticated pig brought over a hundred or so years later by other european explorers.

In short time what we recognize as a farm-pig , reverted to all the wild , dark bristly , shoulder loaded , erect ear primitive type that the Asian people had "domesticated " BC.

hardy? you bet . Hybrid or cross bred??? -- Natural selection . 

there are good accounts in the Fuller and Scott experiments .

like most genetic discussions the emphasis is on external - setting breed type .

here is the video -- I like to use it to inspire children to have an interest in the
sciences


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## EyeDogtor (Mar 21, 2018)

The keys to breeding the optimum dog are reproduction, variation, and selection. They are the same keys to evolution, which is why in the GSD--a relatively new breed--we see drastic changes in conformation and behavior since its initial creation. To sustain it, both line-breeding and out crossing are needed.

Line-breeding aims to perpetuate the arbitrary standard.

Out-crossing is purposed to illicit a modification.

The result of each breeding? Could be anything unfortunately.

I would argue that it is probable to see a range of phenotypes after both types of breeding not only due to complex genetics including penetrance and coupling, but also epigenetic factors (on- or off-switches) such as diet and conditioning.

Breeding is easily unpredictable which is why you'll hear the general complaint that any breed as a whole is going downhill (e.g. shortened estimated lifespan) and has become increasingly difficult to breed.

A complete understanding of genetics is hardly there, despite what this article proposes so neatly. However, it does provide a good simplification of its basics. 

It's a guideline, not gospel.

For better guidelines, a genetics intro course: Genetics Toolbox

You may learn that we do not know anything! But at least we can know that we don't know. 

Disclaimer: I am not a breeder, but I do have a degree in genetics.


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## EyeDogtor (Mar 21, 2018)

Apologies for the double post, but I just found a good example that visualizes the complex relations within GSDs in Australia. As you can quickly see in the heat map, there seems to be three main lines of the breed with far more lesser related dogs.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750897/#!po=32.5000

Breeding knowing actual genotype would be a dream, we would think. It may be a nightmare first for a long time.

Thanks for letting me geek.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This is an excellent book that I have recommended many times over the years .

BRED FOR PERFECTION by U of T and U of Guelph prof --- Margaret Derry 

https://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/content/bred-perfection 

results of breeder selection


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cool, thanks for that. I am happy to geek out.

I do think nature vs. nurture is so important. And then how do you even determine if the offspring is an improvement when breeding for performance? For example, some breeders are OK with a handler aggressive or civil dog, while others prefer social. It all depends on the goals of the breeder. 

This is where sled dog racing makes it a bit simpler. If the dog can maintain X speed for X miles, then the dog is an improvement. 

In GSD what makes a good dog is a bit more complex.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> Cool, thanks for that. I am happy to geek out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is so true. I think that’s why we need to have higher expectations prior to choosing breeding stock. That way personal bias doesn’t get in the way of determining what a “great” GSD is. But that also means we have to carefully determine what that standard is, which I feel has fallen to the wayside just to get bragging rights to breed in a way.


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