# Is this a good breeder?



## khigh (Apr 30, 2013)

I have used him for training before with my last dog and have always loved the look of his dogs. Could someone look at this and tell me if his dogs are from good lines? There looks to be a lot of Sch3 in the lines (which I will be wanting to do Sch with my next dog), but my German is a little rusty, so I don't know about the rest!

Thanks for looking and I'm crossing my fingers that he's got good dogs.

Zehfuss K-9 Training


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have had a really hard time navigating this website. Keeps locking up on me but it may be my connection. I was only able to view one pedigree. 

He has West German Showlines. I did recognize some nice dogs in the one pedigree I was able to view. If he has what you want then I would buy from him. 

However, if you are seriously interested in Schutzhund consider working lines too. WGSL can indeed do SchH as evidenced by the title in the pedigree. I have WGSL and they are my favorite so I say this with no prejudice, but I think working lines are probably overall better suited to that sport.

You can google Susanne Shelton at Austerlitz. She is in Sand Springs, west of Tulsa on the Cimmaron Turnpike. Susanne combines working and showlines. Many local SchH competitors do buy from her. 

I can also recommend the breeder I got my puppy from. Tidmores Rising Star in McAlester. Her dogs too are all WGSL, so the same comemnt about your linked breeder would apply here. 

Don't limit yourself to local breeders, look all over. Most ship dogs. Check out Wildhause in Michigan too. Johnson Haus in the Carolina's. There are nice dogs all over the country. 

My Kayos came from WindRidge GSD in Rush Springs. She is American and German Showlines. However, Elizabeth has been transisitioning to working lines. So google her too. and look. I think she is bit pricey and I am willing to plop down a sum of money. But still worth a look to compare. It may be just what you want.

I used to be finicky about titles. I still am finicky about titles, but not as bad as I used to be. I think a dog that is going to be used for sport competition needs to have at least one parent or grandparent that has displayed some evidence of ability. Titles is evidence but it is not the only evidence. I am more interested in good health and sound temper and structure. 

If I can help you please PM me. I do not get on this site real often but will try to check back. 

Good luck, puppy searching is a lot of fun!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Are his dogs titled and health checked? I saw a couple of the imports were. Also what is he breeding for? I see mostly SL but a WL thrown in. I see some good, and some bad. It's not a breeder for me. I like WL's though so....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

He appears to be a very good dog trainer....that would count heavily in my opinion of him knowing correct temperament and probably breeding sound dogs.


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## khigh (Apr 30, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> Are his dogs titled and health checked? I saw a couple of the imports were. Also what is he breeding for? I see mostly SL but a WL thrown in. I see some good, and some bad. It's not a breeder for me. I like WL's though so....


I'll call and ask him tomorrow about his dogs being titled. I know some of their pups are titled. That's on his accolades. I really don't think he shows anymore because of the amount of time training takes.

Maybe I'll see if I can stop by there this weekend. He is hard to understand on the phone with the accent!


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## khigh (Apr 30, 2013)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> I have had a really hard time navigating this website. Keeps locking up on me but it may be my connection. I was only able to view one pedigree.
> 
> He has West German Showlines. I did recognize some nice dogs in the one pedigree I was able to view. If he has what you want then I would buy from him.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I think I'm going to start looking at different lines and then start talking to breeders who work with the lines I like.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

khigh said:


> I have used him for training before with my last dog and have always loved the look of his dogs. Could someone look at this and tell me if his dogs are from good lines? There looks to be a lot of Sch3 in the lines (which I will be wanting to do Sch with my next dog), but my German is a little rusty, so I don't know about the rest!
> 
> Thanks for looking and I'm crossing my fingers that he's got good dogs.
> 
> Zehfuss K-9 Training


I never understand tiered puppy prices from the same litter. Maybe more for pick of the litter, but why are pet dogs not just as important/worth as much as "top line" dogs? Personally I like breeders who prefer to have a big say in what pup would best fit your lifestyle/personality. But, is it really possible to look at 8 week old pups and be able to tell which ones will excel in sport/k9 and which won't? It seems SO much changes from 8 weeks to maturity...and his "pick of the litter" pup, is DOUBLE a "pet pup." Maybe a breeder can weigh in and explain this thinking to me?


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## khigh (Apr 30, 2013)

Maybe someone can tell me what lines to look for with these characteristics below. A little more about my background, first. I have had a Shepherd before. I adopted him from a family when he was 5 years old. He passed away from cancer last year at the age of 15. I actually work (and have for 7 years) in the pet retail/pet nutrition field, so I am able to bring a dog to work with me once they have their second round of shots. After that, the place I work at prefers titre testing instead of over-vaccinating. 

Wrangler, my last Shepherd, was on RAW and I think that's what helped him make it to 15. We did some tracking and did tracking training for fun, but I never really worked him because he had some people aggression which started when he was about 7 years old. I know why it started and I don't blame him for it. He was in the backyard pottying one evening and was shot with a paintball gun by some nasty teenagers. After that, he rarely went in public. 

Okay, what I want in my next dog:

Firstly a family dog
Stable temperament in their lines
Schutzhund titled parents or grandparents
I don't like the American Showline look with the highly sloped back and low hips
Preferably not solid color but that's the least important part of it all


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

khigh said:


> Maybe someone can tell me what lines to look for with these characteristics below.
> Firstly a family dog
> Stable temperament in their lines
> Schutzhund titled parents or grandparents
> ...


There are many GSD lines that fit your desired characteristics. In fact, any european working line and german show line when bred by a knowledgeable and reputable breeder should fit your list. Just give the list to the breeder so they can select a suitable puppy.
Look for schutzhund clubs within driving distance of your location and check when their next trials are scheduled.
USCA - Club Events
Attend trials and network. 
Look at real dogs. 
I may be old school so I don't believe in Internet shopping for a puppy. Or relying on strangers in Internet forums.
If you are happy with your trainer why not use him. I find it a bit strange that someone would rely on an Internet forum filled with strangers if they already know a person who knows dogs.
If you are going to do schutzhund or any other kind of dog sports, now is the time to find out what that actually entails. You won't be doing it alone so finding an organization or group of people you like is even more important than finding that perfect puppy. There are hundreds of good German shepherd puppies being born in the U.S. every year and many of them will be good enough for you.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Good suggestions to check out dog shows/Schutzhund trials. Most clubs in OK are DVG or WDA clubs.

There is a club in OKC (I know of one, maybe more) and 3 in the Tulsa area. The WDA club meets at Susanne's in Sand Springs. Tulsa Schutzhund Club meets at Chandler Park in Tulsa. Interstes Working Club South meets in Winchester south of Glenpool. All have websites.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Just me personally here, but I don't jive with his puppy contract at all.

He specifically only guarantees against crippling _hip dysplasia_... almost goes out of his way to mention that no other crippling genetic defects are covered ("no further guarantee is made"). So what happens if your dog has crippling _elbow_ dysplasia? Or EPI? Or drops dead of congestive heart failure?

Also I absolutely never support someone who refuses replacement unless the original dog is returned. Who's going to do that? No one with half a heart... its a great way to get one's self out of having to make good on a contract.

Meh.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The only intelligent guarantee I would make in refer to HD is against crippling HD. The percentages don't support guaranteeing more than that except on paper. As for titling, I always hear the premise that in lieu of titling a breeder should be working their dog in something to show or validate breed worthiness. I submit to you with the training background of this individual, I would think his insights and knowledge would greatly impact his breeding selections. He has much more going for him than many breeders I know. I think I would buy a dog from him if he indicated he had what I described to him.jmo


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Having had GSD's for nearly 30 years now....... 

A repsonsible breeder does what they can to insure the health and temper of their breeding stock. There are some things you cannot test for, some things that won't show up for a few generations. Breeders cannot really guarantee a dog against health issues. They are not God. 

I have had a few with issues and the contract/ guarantee (all 11 pages of it) was not really worth the paper it was written on. I have no contract at all on Lydia, my pup from Tidmores, I also know this breeder will do the right thing regardless of whether it is on paper or not. I have no issues with this pup either as of now. She gets her hips and elbows prelim'd tomorrow.

The contract from the OP's linked breeder bothers me not one whit.


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## khigh (Apr 30, 2013)

I've got an appointment with him this afternoon to discuss his dogs and watch one of his pups from last years litter go through a PP exercise with their new owner. I'm going to go with the hope of liking what I see and the ability to walk away if I don't.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

If you don't feel your contract on a dog was worth anything, than that's a problem between you and the breeder you got the dog from. Personally, I value my contracts quite a lot, and expect them to be made good on should there be a major issue.

No, breeders aren't god, and things happen. But that's WHY there is a contract in place. If my dog drops dead of an embolism at 1 year, you're darn right I expect that to be covered. No, the breeder did not intentionally breed that into his dogs and maybe there was no way they could predict it, but again, that's WHY there is a contract. Drop a couple grand on a dog that dies or is crippled before he ever even gets a chance to live, then what was the point again? 

To each their own, I DO put value in my contracts and would not purchase a dog from a person who I did not feel would honor their's fully, or didn't at least broadly guarantee against crippling defects.


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## khigh (Apr 30, 2013)

The contract I'm not so big on because I have formerly bred and now rescue sugar gliders and know that the contract is only as good as the court you go to if something goes horribly wrong.

I saw the bitch and dog that would be my pup's parents today and watched one of their puppies from last years litter work a decoy and really fell in love. It looks like in a few months, I will be getting a puppy from the next litter. The icing on the cake? Basic obedience and off-leash training is free if you get one of his dogs and all other training is discounted!


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

khigh said:


> Basic obedience and off-leash training is free if you get one of his dogs and all other training is discounted!


Sounds like you're basically getting a free puppy LOL
Best of luck and enjoy!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

re: contracts in general, that is true there are no guarantees in life, however having a signed document does heavily weight in your favor (if the other party is the one in breach of contract) in court.

*If* I'm going to do battle in court I'd rather have signed documentation then the 'he said she said' hearsay defense. Just sayin'


Good luck with your new puppy!




khigh said:


> The contract I'm not so big on because I have formerly bred and now rescue sugar gliders and know that the contract is only as good as the court you go to if something goes horribly wrong.
> 
> I saw the bitch and dog that would be my pup's parents today and watched one of their puppies from last years litter work a decoy and really fell in love. It looks like in a few months, I will be getting a puppy from the next litter. The icing on the cake? Basic obedience and off-leash training is free if you get one of his dogs and all other training is discounted!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> The only intelligent guarantee I would make in refer to HD is against crippling HD. The percentages don't support guaranteeing more than that except on paper.


Cliff, could you elucidate on this a bit more? Specifically, why do you think contractual obligations should be limited to crippling hd only?

IMO, a contracts usefulness is largely limited to making it clear what each parties obligations & responsibilities are. IF I thought I'd need to take a breeder to court to enforce the contract I wouldn't consider purchasing from that breeder. While I'd purchase from a breeder I trusted that didn't have a contract I wouldn't deal with a breeder I felt wasn't trustworthy regardless of how 'good' the contract was.

Most dog purchase contracts have clauses in them which make them almost irrelevant no matter how fair & generous they are. For example vet bills aren't covered but will usually far exceed the purchase price of a dog with chronic heath problems. IF the pup is returned the buyer is usually responsible for transportation costs both ways which can eat up 1/2 of the refund or more. For this reason, while I don't find contracts worthless, I do find their intrinsic value to be limited.

IMO, the best 'guarantee' comes from dealing with breeders one can work with if problems do arise & who consistently produce sound, healthy, long lived dogs.


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