# Yet ANOTHER Irresponsible Owner Story



## Konotashi

This morning our flyball team went to our secondary park since the SchH people took our regular one, and the secondary park we use is a public park. Someone was leaving with their black GSD (gorgeous!) and a really pretty pit bull as we were setting up. Unfortunately, they weren't leashed and she had ZERO control over them.

Her GSD went into one of our dogs' crates, and one of my teammates said, "Umm, can you get your dog out of our crate?"

Meanwhile, the pit was running around, checking everything out, and I looked over and another teammate was bringing her dog down. The pit saw her and trotted over (friendly), but Sasha (assumed to be a lab/doberman) is dog aggressive with strange dogs. We all started screaming, "GET THE DOG AWAY FROM SASHA!!!"

The pit's owner did NOTHING other than call the dog, obviously to no avail. Sasha's owner kicked at the pit (didn't make contact, but was trying to avoid a fight) and was screaming at it, and the owner just stood there and yelled, "Don't kick my dog!"

I was just amazed at the absolute ignorance and stupidity of some people! When I saw she had zero control over her dogs, I carried Ozzy down in his kennel and wasn't even going to TOUCH Gracie until they were long gone.


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## Mary Beth

What a mess! Thankfully no one was hurt. There's a lot to be said for leash laws.


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## AkariKuragi

I don't understand how people can let their dogs off leash when they don't have control over them... I'm terrified to let a dog I have fairly decent control over off leash because I know I don't have 100% control over the dog and if something were to happen I wouldn't be able to forgive myself. *shakes her head* Glad no one was hurt.


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## GusGus

This story annoys me. I just want to scream at those kind of people.


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## selzer

Was this an off-lead park or an on-lead park? 

If it was an off-lead park, I don't think a dog aggressive/reactive dog should be brought to such a place. 

I am not a dog-park fan, but I really don't think the dogs have to have 100% obedience, they just need to be social. People who have a nice, social dogs do not realize what it is to have a dog that is fear-reactive, dog aggressive, etc. 

But if it was an off-lead park, and the pit is just doing his thing and not being aggressive, then I think the people who brought a dog-reactive dog to a dog park are the ones in the wrong, whether it is a part of fly ball there or not.


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## Konotashi

On-lead. People have their dogs off-lead there all the time there though (obviously). A few people had their dogs off lead while we were practicing, but kept a good distance and had their dogs under their control. It's a huge park, so most of them stayed far enough away so the dogs weren't interested in what we were doing, and our dogs didn't care about what they were doing if they noticed them at all.
But the woman that was leaving with the GSD and the pit literally walked straight through the MIDDLE of our setup.

And when the pit ran up to Sasha, Sasha was on a leash. (Just read my original post, didn't realize I didn't state that).


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## Alwaysaworkingdog

Yet ANOTHER dog park story, well kind of. Where ever you are in public, whether it is in an off-leash area or an on-lead area, the law states that you must have CONTROL of your dog. There are no exceptions. I would only be comfortable letting my dog off leash, and I am speaking totally hypothetically, if I new my dog had perfect OB and was desensitised to dogs.BUT EVEN THEN, the last thing you'll ever see is one of these dogs loose, because of all the variables that exist, so basically, when it comes down to it, not even the highly trained owners let their dogs run loose in public. Because with education comes awareness. But I guess that kind of ideiology contradicts the very purpose of dog parks, as places for very "doggy" dogs to go and socialise with other dogs.

It's sad to keep hearing these stories, but as long as there are irresponsible dog owners, and there always will be, these incidents will keep on occurring. I just hope we can all do our best to avoid them.

Can I ask any of you why you do find it necesary to socialise your dog with other non-pack member dogs???


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## selzer

I really don't understand dog parks. I guess if I lived in a city, had just one dog, and wanted that dog to get some off-lead exercise, I might make it a point from very early on, that that is what we were going to do. 

But, the problem is, I can have my dog 100% obedience trained, socialized to other dogs, bomb proof around dog and people, but I can not ensure that anyone else is doing the same. Oh, I could come here and grouse about how other people are neandrethals, and clueless. But the fact is, no one is out there forcing every person who enters the dog park to pass a CGC, and a CD and doggy day care. It just isn't happening. Yeah, someone's going to come on now and say that they know of such-n-such place that does that. Well phooey! The fact is 99.9999% of dog parks out there may have rules, and may have guidelines, but there is no one testing and no one enforcing any of it. 

It is just like taking your dog to home depot. You go with your well mannered pup and you cause no problems and everyone loves on him, and all is well. But then of the 20 people that saw your dog, 17 own dogs, 13 of those realize their dogs behavior is no where near where it needs to be to make such a trip a current possibility and keep them home. 2 of the other 4 dog owners dogs are just fine to come and hang out. But the other two have clueless owners and will cause problems with their dog by either letting them soil the store or grounds, or by being scary-unsocial there. The next thing you know, Home Depot tells everyone that their dogs are not welcome. 

They cannot compete if they have to pay someone to hang around the front doors giving dog owners and dogs IQ and temperament tests. And pets aren't their business. 

The owner of a reactive or aggressive dog has to be that much more careful. People are idiots, yes. They see other people working with their dogs off-leash, or playing with their dogs off leash, so they think what the heck? They have no clue that the other dogs have solid recalls. It simply does not occur to them. 

When you have a dog that just loves everything regardless of the number of feet it has, it is somehow inconceivable that everyone and everything will not love it. 

Oh there really isn't any excuse if you own breeds like pits or rotts or GSDs, because you have to walk around in dreamland to have never experienced the effects of these breed's reputation, but there is no one at the gates of the park ensuring people are not walking around in a bubble of their own. 

I own GSDs. I do not go where dogs are commonly off lead, whether it is a leashed park or an off-leash park. It is part of protecting my dogs from idiots. I have all the puppies trained, they all have good recall -- save I am not sure of the puppies around distractions, but I limit taking my dogs to places where dogs are likely to training classes and dog shows, because I can be relatively certain that in those places, the dogs will be under control.


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## codmaster

Konotashi said:


> On-lead. People have their dogs off-lead there all the time there though (obviously). A few people had their dogs off lead while we were practicing, but kept a good distance and had their dogs under their control. It's a huge park, so most of them stayed far enough away so the dogs weren't interested in what we were doing, and our dogs didn't care about what they were doing if they noticed them at all.
> But the woman that was leaving with the GSD and the pit literally walked straight through the MIDDLE of our setup.
> 
> And when the pit ran up to Sasha, Sasha was on a leash. (Just read my original post, didn't realize I didn't state that).


 
This was a dog park where all the dogs have to be on lead all the time?

I never even knew there were such a place - never have seen one here in CA.


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## selzer

I think she said it is a public park. Some parks have off-lead areas for dogs. Others just tell you pick up after them and keep them on lead.


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## codmaster

I could see someone getting upset if one was to kick my obviously friendly acting dog just for running up toward me and my dog.

It isn't that owners fault if my dog goes bonkers at a dog coming toward it.

How close did the pit come to the other dog? that would also make a difference to me. if the pit came close enought and made contact, that wuld be very bad, BUT if it just came to a few feet away then not so much! (we have had a couple of GSD's do that to me and my guy). Then if my dog goes bonkers - that is a matter for me to address with him!

Was the pit owner wrong in having their dog off lead? Of course, if it were a on lead park! But it is also our job to have some measure of control of our dogs if they happen to come in a reasonable close distance to other dogs/people.

A joint thing, perhaps!


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## selzer

If you have a dog-reactive dog, you have to train it, exercise it, and you might want to socialize it specifically to work on the dog-reactive issues. None of these happen in a vacuum. 

I do not think a dog-reactive dog should be muzzled to take a walk. But for the dog's sake, I think that I would not take such a dog to a place where it is likely that there will be off-lead dogs, whatever the law is, and if I really could not avoid it, I would use a muzzle.


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## Syaoransbear

This is not a dog park story, it's an off-leash dog story. Because if it was a dog park story the fault wouldn't be on the person with the german shepherd and the pitbull, it would be on the person with the dog aggressive dog.

While that lady should have had better control of her dogs if she's going to have them off leash, I also don't think it was a stellar idea to bring a DA dog to a park where people usually have their dogs off leash, even if it isn't legal.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Hmmm. Well having a DA GSD for 12.5 years, I did walk her with a muzzle. Too many dumb people not obeying the leash law, yelling "My dog is friendly." Well, mine was not. Heaven forbid she would have taken a bite out of another dog. She would have gotten blamed for being the "bad" GSD. No matter that she was always on a leash. I imagine the woman who kicked at the pit was doing so to prevent a fight - protecting the pit, as well as her own dog. It isn't fun having a DA dog. I dealt with mine her whole long life. I managed her and she never harmed another dog. I feel she had as much right to be out as any other dog, especially since we were obeying the law.


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## codmaster

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Hmmm. Well having a DA GSD for 12.5 years, I did walk her with a muzzle. Too many dumb people not obeying the leash law, yelling "My dog is friendly." Well, mine was not. Heaven forbid she would have taken a bite out of another dog. She would have gotten blamed for being the "bad" GSD. No matter that she was always on a leash. I imagine the woman who kicked at the pit was doing so to prevent a fight - *protecting the pit*, as well as her own dog. It isn't fun having a DA dog. I dealt with mine her whole long life. I managed her and she never harmed another dog. I feel she had as much right to be out as any other dog, especially since we were obeying the law.


 
I wonder if the pit (or their owner) would agree with this view of the reason for kicking a friendly dog?

Of course all dogs have a right to "be out" - just not a right to attack another dog esp. if not in self defense! (that would be entirely differen, naturally).


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## Stevenzachsmom

codmaster said:


> I wonder if the pit (or their owner) would agree with this view of the reason for kicking a friendly dog?
> 
> Of course all dogs have a right to "be out" - just not a right to attack another dog esp. if not in self defense! (that would be entirely differen, naturally).


According to the OP, the pit was kicked "at". No contact was made. Perhaps the pit owner would have preferred for her dog to be bitten.

Since my "Annie" passed away, I adopted a smaller mixed puppy. He loves other dogs and is always leashed. He only greets other dogs, if I OK it with the owners first. Some dogs do not like other dogs. If I allowed my puppy to run off leash into another dogs' face and he was bitten, that would be totally my fault. My dog. My responsibility. The owner not in compliance with the leash law is in the wrong.


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## Konotashi

It was a public ark, not a dog park.

And the dog got close enough where a fight very well COULD have broken out. The dog came within inches of Sasha. Sasha's owner had to pretty much choke and hang her, trying to hold her head, spinning around and trying to body block the pit when she saw it approach. I think when everyone started screaming, "GET THE DOG AWAY FROM SASHA!" that should have been a clear sign that the pit was NOT welcome to greet her. We all started yelling before the dog got close.

But the owner made zero attempt to restrain and leash her dog. She just stood there calling the dog. Sasha won't go and hunt down other dogs. But she doesn't appreciate being greeted by strange dogs, particularly large ones.


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## Konotashi

codmaster said:


> I wonder if the pit (or their owner) would agree with this view of the reason for kicking a friendly dog?
> 
> Of course all dogs have a right to "be out" - just not a right to attack another dog esp. if not in self defense! (that would be entirely differen, naturally).


If Ozzy, or any future dog I own, wasn't leashed and approached a large, leashed, unfriendly dog, and not recall for whatever reason, I would RATHER them kick (or kick at him, as what happened in this case) than allow a dog fight to break out and let their dog kill him.


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## blehmannwa

Leash laws don't have exceptions. I can't tell by a quick glance if an off-leash dog is friendly or has a 100% recall. I've got no tolerance for off leash dogs in on-leash areas. It's just plain rude! 

I've got an ongoing battle with a woman who has two off leash dogs so that probably makes me quite cross about leash laws.She allows her dogs to run off leash adjacent to the only paved path. She parks herself under a tree and stays for hours (literally.) She becomes abusive when asked to leash them and yelled at my elderly friend.

On Friday an ACO contacted me and we figured out her address. She's getting a strongly worded letter and 30 days to update her licenses. She also now has a case number.


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## Konotashi

Honestly, I don't care if people pay attention to the leash laws or not.
If our flyball team abided by them, we would honestly have nowhere to train.

I just would like for people to have a little respect, common sense, and at least SOME level of control over their dog(s) if they're going to ignore the leash laws. Which I know isn't going to happen, but a girl can dream, right?


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## Carriesue

I'm doing some obedience work at a local obedience club and their flyball team practices at the same time as our class and they use this plastic orange light weight fencing while they're practicing so that they can work but dogs can't run out and no other dogs can get in... would something like that be an option for future?

I agree though I think she should have had those dogs leashed if they didn't even know a basic recall especially in a human park.


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## blehmannwa

I don't go to off leash areas because I don't want to deal with off leash dogs. The leash law is a civll matter. We all have to share a space and respect the rights of others. In my case, there's a nice off leash area about a mile away. That's the space for people who want to let their dog off lead for whatever reason.


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## codmaster

Konotashi said:


> Honestly, *I don't care if people pay attention to the leash laws or not.*
> If our flyball team abided by them, we would honestly have nowhere to train.
> 
> I just would like for people to have a little respect *(for the law?)*, common sense, and at least SOME level of control over their dog(s) if they're going to ignore the leash laws. Which I know isn't going to happen, but a girl can dream, right?


 
*How about a little respect for the law? Or maybe you just figure that we all can pick and choose which (if any) laws appy to each individual (and dog!)*


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## codmaster

Carriesue said:


> I'm doing some obedience work at a local obedience club and their flyball team practices at the same time as our class and they use this plastic orange light weight fencing while they're practicing so that they can work but dogs can't run out and no other dogs can get in... would something like that be an option for future?
> 
> I agree though I think *she should have had those dogs leashed if they didn't even know a basic recall* especially in a human park.


 
Shouldn't the dogs have been leashed regardless of whether they knew a recall or not? Didn't someone state that this was a leashed area?


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## Lin

Konotashi said:


> Honestly, I don't care if people pay attention to the leash laws or not.
> If our flyball team abided by them, we would honestly have nowhere to train.
> 
> I just would like for people to have a little respect, common sense, and at least SOME level of control over their dog(s) if they're going to ignore the leash laws. Which I know isn't going to happen, but a girl can dream, right?


Some areas don't have leash laws but "restraint" laws, or "at large" laws that allow for dogs to be under verbal restraint. I'm all for that. 

This dog was obviously under NO restraint. And I agree, I'd rather my dogs be kicked at than bitten by a DA dog. Emma still doesn't have a 100% recall. Its more like 98%. If, god forbid, that time she had selective hearing and didn't hear me and I'm trying to get to her to grab (and I'm not physically able to run due to disability) as she wants to greet a DA dog, by all means owner kick her.


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## Carriesue

codmaster said:


> Shouldn't the dogs have been leashed regardless of whether they knew a recall or not? Didn't someone state that this was a leashed area?


Yes I agree they should have been leashed but I'm not familiar with the rules of the park or the leash rules of where she lives. But so many people ignore leash and dog laws(dogs are not allowed in parks in Carlsbad but I see them there all the time), if she was going to ignore the law she should have at least had control over them.


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## codmaster

Me either. That was the reason for my question. Seems like any unleashed dogs would be a potentially bad thing.


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## blehmannwa

My city leash laws are very clear and I'm sick to death of excuses for violating them. There is no "voice command" or "verbal restraint" or "my dog doesn't like off-leash areas cause other dogs chase his ball" or "my dog is too small to play in an off leash area". Unless otherwise posted, dogs are to be on a six foot leash. When I walk my dog in the city I expect that others will obey the same laws that I do.


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## pets4life

*If it was an off-lead park, I don't think a dog aggressive/reactive dog should be brought to such a place. *

This is one thing that is getting on my nerves people bringing leashed fearful dogs in off leash areas in my area. Recently. This is NOT what the Op was doing though.


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## martemchik

Konotashi said:


> Honestly, I don't care if people pay attention to the leash laws or not.
> If our flyball team abided by them, we would honestly have nowhere to train.
> 
> I just would like for people to have a little respect, common sense, and at least SOME level of control over their dog(s) if they're going to ignore the leash laws. Which I know isn't going to happen, but a girl can dream, right?


Here's the problem with this story...you're fine with people you know and trust having their dogs off leash (illegally) but not others.

Can you really guarantee that that DA doberman won't take off after a dog while its doing its flyball run? No...you can't. If a dog is that DA, it would turn off all sense of hearing and no amount of recall would help. But you're okay with it because you know the owner and you BELIEVE she has control.

If this is a park, where leash laws are generally not adhered to, and you're one of those people that don't adhere to them...you have no right to be angry at people that don't either. Mostly because if you were to call the police...they'd ticket you as well for having off leash dogs...and no one cares how much control you THINK you have.

Sorry...I go to a park like this all the time. I have control of my dog, I don't ever expect anyone else to have as much control as I do of my dog. If their dog comes up to my dog while my dog is off leash...or I'm planning on taking him off leash...I don't worry because my dog isn't aggressive. If my dog was aggressive...I wouldn't take him to this type of area where there are other dogs.

And the last thing I would do is KICK another dog that is perfectly friendly while my dog is the aggressive one. Look at it from an outside point of view...you're watching someone kick a friendly dog because THEIR dog wants to kill it. I'm sorry...but you're clearly biased because you know the other person. You think of them as "responsible" because they train their dog in a sport. I don't see it as being responsible to take a DA dog anywhere there is the possibility of off leash or on leash dogs. Sad to say but if you can't manage your dog, don't expect others to oblige your wishes because you want to train in a sport. If you want to train in something like that, find private land, private buildings, where you don't have to worry about anyone from the public putting your dog in danger of reacting.


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## fuzzybunny

From a legal standpoint in an on-leash area which usually is anywhere in the city, if an off-leash dog approaches an on-leash dog who happens to be aggressive and attacks, does the owner of the aggressive dog have any liability? They didn't break the law by having their dog off-leash. 

The reason I ask is because one of mine is dog aggressive and I had an off-leash dog approach yesterday. THIS WAS NOT A DOG PARK. I told the man one of mine wasn't friendly but his dog didn't listen to his recall. There was nothing I could do so I positioned my usually friendly dog to make contact and kept my aggressive dog behind me. As it turns out my friendly dog didn't like something about this dog and tried to attack. This is not normal behaviour for him. No contact was made but I literally had to heave all 149 lbs of me onto the ground to hold them back. If my dog had made contact and bit the other dog, do I have any liability? I was following the law by having mine on leash and the other guy was not.


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## blehmannwa

My understanding is that all liability falls on to the owner of the unleashed dog but that's specific to my city.


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## Lin

martemchik said:


> Look at it from an outside point of view...you're watching someone kick a friendly dog because THEIR dog wants to kill it. I'm sorry...but you're clearly biased because you know the other person.


It has nothing to do with who owns what dog. It has to do with a kick (if contact was made, however kicking AT a dog to shoo it away is being done for the purpose of NO contact being needed) being less damaging to the dog than being bit and a dog fight starting.


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## martemchik

fuzzybunny said:


> From a legal standpoint in an on-leash area which usually is anywhere in the city, if an off-leash dog approaches an on-leash dog who happens to be aggressive and attacks, does the owner of the aggressive dog have any liability? They didn't break the law by having their dog off-leash.
> 
> The reason I ask is because one of mine is dog aggressive and I had an off-leash dog approach yesterday. THIS WAS NOT A DOG PARK. I told the man one of mine wasn't friendly but his dog didn't listen to his recall. There was nothing I could do so I positioned my usually friendly dog to make contact and kept my aggressive dog behind me. As it turns out my friendly dog didn't like something about this dog and tried to attack. This is not normal behaviour for him. No contact was made but I literally had to heave all 149 lbs of me onto the ground to hold them back. If my dog had made contact and bit the other dog, do I have any liability? I was following the law by having mine on leash and the other guy was not.


No you do not have liability...but the point is that OP was at a park where her and her team were allowing their dogs off leash as well. So my point was that in certain areas, although there are leash laws, they aren't enforced. So to call an owner "irresponsible" because they let their friendly dog off leash and it came towards a DA dog that was leashed (and was soon going to be off-leash) is ridiculous.

To judge people as irresponsible just because their dogs aren't trained to YOUR standard is ridiculous. That's like me saying that any one with a dog that isn't titled in some sort of obedience is "irresponsible."

The reason the fly-ball group is using this park is because they know its acceptable to have their dogs off leash there and no one will gripe or call the police (there are definitely parks where if your dog is off-leash for even a second someone will call the police).

I get that this thread is a rant, but it's crazy to want to break the law yourself and then get angry when other people do the same thing. If you want things YOUR way, find private property to do it on. Then you can control what goes on.


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## martemchik

Lin said:


> It has nothing to do with who owns what dog. It has to do with a kick (if contact was made, however kicking AT a dog to shoo it away is being done for the purpose of NO contact being needed) being less damaging to the dog than being bit and a dog fight starting.


That's fine if you think that, but to the public watching, the person doing the kicking is in the wrong. The person kicking has the dog that looks like it wants to tear apart the other dog, and that person is "helping" their dog by also being violent.

We're not dealing with dog people here, we're dealing with regular people that believe all dogs should be friendly when they're out in public.

I also know that there are plenty of people on this forum (myself included), that if you were to kick their dog, even to get it away from your dog, would come over and kick you just as hard.


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## Lin

You'd honestly rather your dog be attacked, than someone try to shoo your dog away from them? 

And if the owner was responsible and been able to recall their dog, this wouldn't have happened. You don't let your dogs offlead if they don't have a recall. 

If I'm handling a DA dog on lead, an offlead dog runs up to me and I try to shoo them away for their own safety, and the owner comes up and hits me, the police are going to be there REAL fast and its not going to just be a citation for the loose dog anymore its going to be assault as well. 

And it hasn't even been mentioned yet, but the loose dog was a pitbull. Thats another breed that doesn't need bad press, and owners have to be EXTRA careful to be responsible. It may be friendly at first, but being bitten by a DA dog could quickly bring up inherent DA and then you've got one individual who was trying to prevent a problem who is stuck in the middle of a dogfight. If they get injured, thats going to be the fault of the loose dog's owner and more bad press for pits.


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## martemchik

It's not about what I would rather have, its about the fact that OP thinks that the one person is irresponsible and yet her "friend" with a DA doberman is about to unleash the dog to do some fly-ball practice isn't. How does that make any sense?

It's about the fact that if someone kicks a perfectly friendly dog, there is no convincing the general public that you were doing it for its own good and "protecting" it from YOUR DA dog that was about to rip it to shreds.

I'm just playing devil's advocate and pointing out how this situation looks from the other side. How calling someone "irresponsible" and getting angry at them (enough to rant on a forum) isn't always valid. I can probably find a reason to call any one of the people in the fly-ball group irresponsible pretty much just for having their dogs off leash (especially DA dogs).


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## bga

Konotashi said:


> This morning our flyball team went to our secondary park since the SchH people took our regular one, and the secondary park we use is a public park. Someone was leaving with their black GSD (gorgeous!) and a really pretty pit bull as we were setting up. Unfortunately, they weren't leashed and she had ZERO control over them.
> 
> Her GSD went into one of our dogs' crates, and one of my teammates said, "Umm, can you get your dog out of our crate?"
> 
> Meanwhile, the pit was running around, checking everything out, and I looked over and another teammate was bringing her dog down. The pit saw her and trotted over (friendly), but Sasha (assumed to be a lab/doberman) is dog aggressive with strange dogs. We all started screaming, "GET THE DOG AWAY FROM SASHA!!!"
> 
> The pit's owner did NOTHING other than call the dog, obviously to no avail. Sasha's owner kicked at the pit (didn't make contact, but was trying to avoid a fight) and was screaming at it, and the owner just stood there and yelled, "Don't kick my dog!"
> 
> I was just amazed at the absolute ignorance and stupidity of some people! When I saw she had zero control over her dogs, I carried Ozzy down in his kennel and wasn't even going to TOUCH Gracie until they were long gone.


I have to disagree entirely with your viewpoint. Reacting that way, to the point of kicking a friendly dog to keep it away from an aggressive dog, and then blaming the friendly dog's owner, is absurd. While the friendly dog owner may not have had a perfect recall ability, and frankly this is more the norm than the exception, the dogs were not showing aggressive behavior. It seems to me that the aggressive dog needs basic obedience training on how to play nice with other dogs, and it is those owners who are showing irresponible ownership by not providing this.

I had my GSD for 13 years, and her recall ability was good, but certainly not perfect. However, I was as sure as anyone could ever be about her behavoir around other dogs. On two occasions, she was actually attacked by smaller dogs. Rather than react equally, she simply opened her mouth and pinned them to the ground harmlessly until their owners recovered them. She was stable and gentle even though she could certainly have done some harm and she was like this throughout her life. In my opinion, the first responsibilty of a pet owner is to make sure that their dogs are not a threat to either other people or other dogs. All other things, including recall, sit, stay, track, give me your paw, etc, etc, may still be important, but they are secondary.

... and threatening to kick the friendly dog for coming near the agressive dog is not the best way to avoid a fight. I can tell you that if anyone kicked my dog simply for approaching their dog, off leash or not, things would escalate in a hurry, and I'm not talking about the dogs. We all end up losing in this scenario.This not the way that either dogs or people should behave in public.


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## selzer

There is a leash law in Ohio. Some people believe that the whole state has a leash law, which means dogs have to be on leash or on private property. Some people believe that the leash law is only for villages, towns, and cities. Some people believe that the leash law means the dog has to be under control at all times, or the dog must be hunting with its owner. 

Let's see how the law reads:
(A) As used in this section, “dangerous dog” has the same meaning as in section 955.11 of the Revised Code.


(B) *No owner, keeper, or harborer of any female dog shall permit it to go beyond the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer at any time the dog is in heat unless the dog is properly in leash.*

(C) *Except when a dog is lawfully engaged in hunting and accompanied by the owner, keeper, harborer, or handler of the dog, no owner, keeper, or harborer of any dog shall fail at any time to do either of the following:

**(1) Keep the dog physically confined or restrained upon the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer by a leash, tether, adequate fence, supervision, or secure enclosure to prevent escape;*

*(2) Keep the dog under the reasonable control of some person.*

(D) Except when a dangerous dog is lawfully engaged in hunting or training for the purpose of hunting and is accompanied by the owner, keeper, harborer, or handler of the dog, no owner, keeper, or harborer of a dangerous dog shall fail to do either of the following:


(1) While that dog is on the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer, securely confine it at all times in a locked pen that has a top, locked fenced yard, or other locked enclosure that has a top;


(2) While that dog is off the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer, keep that dog on a chain-link leash or tether that is not more than six feet in length and additionally do at least one of the following:


(a) Keep that dog in a locked pen that has a top, locked fenced yard, or other locked enclosure that has a top;


(b) Have the leash or tether controlled by a person who is of suitable age and discretion or securely attach, tie, or affix the leash or tether to the ground or a stationary object or fixture so that the dog is adequately restrained and station such a person in close enough proximity to that dog so as to prevent it from causing injury to any person;


(c) Muzzle that dog.

(E) No person who has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to three or more violations of division (C) of this section involving the same dog and no owner, keeper, or harborer of a dangerous dog shall fail to do the following:


(1) Obtain liability insurance with an insurer authorized to write liability insurance in this state providing coverage in each occurrence because of damage or bodily injury to or death of a person caused by the dangerous dog if so ordered by a court and provide proof of that liability insurance upon request to any law enforcement officer, county dog warden, or public health official charged with enforcing this section;


(2) Obtain a dangerous dog registration certificate from the county auditor pursuant to division (I) of this section, affix a tag that identifies the dog as a dangerous dog to the dog’s collar, and ensure that the dog wears the collar and tag at all times;


(3) Notify the local dog warden immediately if any of the following occurs:


(a) The dog is loose or unconfined.


(b) The dog bites a person, unless the dog is on the property of the owner of the dog, and the person who is bitten is unlawfully trespassing or committing a criminal act within the boundaries of that property.
(c) The dog attacks another animal while the dog is off the property of the owner of the dog.

(4) If the dog is sold, given to another person, or dies, notify the county auditor within ten days of the sale, transfer, or death.




*********************************************************************************************************


So Ohio has a leash law, but it clearly states that so long as the dog in not designated a dangerous dog, it really only has to be under the reasonable control of some person. 



This is huge because we all can interpret for ourselves what "under reasonable control is." Unless the police are called, and then THEY get to decide what "under reasonable control is." So, seriously, the owner of the pit bull in this story might have felt that since her dog was friendly and she was in a park, the dog was under reasonable control. You however would interpret that if your dog cannot recall immediately regardless of distractions it is not under reasonable control. 



I do not know how the DA dog could perfrom any training in said park if its owner could not control it even when it was leashed. One could suggest that the dog, even though it was leashed was not under reasonable control. 



See, I will take one of my dogs out walking around town without a leash. She is trained for off-lead heeling, and we practice in town late at night. I am not violating the leash law because she is under reasonable control _in my opinion. 
_


My guess is that the vast majority of Ohioans have not red the Ohio Revised Code on this topic, so people seeing me out and about with Babs off leash, probably think I am breaking the law, or don't even know there is a law.


----------



## huntergreen

sorry op, you are just dead wrong. you think your flyball club has the right to take over a public park. only you and your club have the right to have your dogs unleashed. and you have the nerve to complain that a friendly dog approached a dog from your club who is dog aggressive which had no business being in a public park. if i owned that friendly dog and some one was kicking at him/her, there would have been quite an incident. if this was my thread, it would have read, the ignorance of clubs and bringing a dog aggressive dog to the park. sounds to me, your club are the ones at fault.


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## codmaster

huntergreen said:


> sorry op, you are just dead wrong. You think your flyball club has the right to take over a public park. Only you and your club have the right to have your dogs unleashed. And you have the nerve to complain that a friendly dog approached a dog from your club who is dog aggressive which had no business being in a public park. If i owned that friendly dog and some one was kicking at him/her, there would have been quite an incident. If this was my thread, it would have read, the ignorance of clubs and bringing a dog aggressive dog to the park. Sounds to me, your club are the ones at fault.


 
*exactly!*


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## Konotashi

Once she's lined up, her brain goes into flyball mode and she focuses on the work she has to do. She's ran in many tournaments - which means dogs everywhere when she's leashed,and a minimum of 7 other dogs around when she's out working and off-leash.

We didn't steal the park. Like I said earlier, a several other people came out with their dogs (off leash) while we had our dogs out practicing, and all was fine. 

There are a lot of cops that drive by (the sheriff's office is 1/4 mile or less away) and they've never said anything. A few weekends ago, an officer was parked next to the canal between the park and the road, and he was sitting there during most of our practice. Never said anything to us.

I'll have to look at the specifics of the leash laws around here, because the Ohio stuff is interesting.


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## Sitz&Platz

Sorry, but anybody who kicks my friendly dog to protect their DA dog, will be in trouble. To me, this is a story about at least 2 irresponsible dog owners. 

Your argument is that you are using the park for flyball practice, and you don't have another place where you could practice instead. Your flyball practice in your view is the only justification to have a dog run off leash? It's ok for you and your friends, but not for anybody else? 

You don't respect the leash law, you're fine with the fact that your friend with a DA dog does not respect the leash law, but you criticize other owners for doing the exact same thing with a FRIENDLY dog? 

Bottom line is, respect leash laws. You were at a public park. Not everybody likes dogs, and not everybody feels comfortable with dogs running around unleashed. I don't. It makes me angry when I hear dog owners justify why leash laws do not apply to them, when we all pay the same taxes to use public parks.


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## Konotashi

Just read over the law real quick since I should have gone to bed a while ago, but from my understanding, we are NOT breaking the law by training for flyball in public with the dogs off-lead.

I would copy/paste, but I'm on my phone and can't, but it says that if the dogs are accompanied by the handler or trainer and are under control and are being trained for a kennel club event, then the law isn't being broken.

I'm not sure if NAFA or UFLI are considered kennel clubs (doubt they are), but AKC DOES now recognize flyball titles, so from my understanding (so I could be wrong!) BUT from what I _understand,_ we are in compliance with the law.

But Sasha's owner was the one with the leashed dog and they have been working with her DA-ness at home.


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## Konotashi

Here's another viewpoint for you guys.

I consider myself pretty good at reading dog body language. Better than most people, better than most of my teammates. I did notice some nervous behavior from the pit when she was checking out the equipment (which is typical of most dogs who have never seen flyball stuff before), but she perked up and her stance turned friendly when she saw Sasha.

She started trotting up to her, but from the viewpoint of someone who ISN'T good at reading a dog's body language, what would your reaction be? If a loose pit bull's demeanor changes ENTIRELY as soon as it sees your dog, and starts coming over to you? Most people would probably panic, whether the dog on the end of your leash is DA or not. Sasha's owner knows how to read her dogs.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog

The OP deserves some criticism. But the fact remains that if the owner of the pit doesn't have control over his/her dog then that's just plain irresponsible. The OP has every right to try to deter a dog coming to her dog. Whether it is friendly or aggressive, it simply does. not. matter. AND double standards and contradictions do not therefore negate the actions of others. If you do not have control of your dog then ONLY you are responsible for what happens as a result. A little kick is the mild compared to some of the dangers a out of control dog is exposed to.

And imagine a person coming up to you, with no warning and sticking his head in your personal space - what? you wouldn't like that?. Then why do we expect our dogs to???? Why do we find it so necessary to force our dogs into social situations? Everyone "gasps in shock" at the thought of old school force training, but are perfectly fine dumping their dog into an artificial and transient "pack" at dog parks and forcing them into social interactions with other dogs, just because they didn't have the spheres to say NO!. So I think it's perfectly reasonable to deter a dog that's invading your personal space or your dogs - the public is no place for a dog that has not been taught to ignore other dogs.

Again, I am yet to see a good argument as to why we should "socialise" our dogs by putting them in positions where they are either forced to or choose to socialise with other dogs in preference to engaging with their owner.

Your dog should see YOU as the centre of its world, not some new dog it hasn't seen before, or a stranger that it wants to be best buddies with. That's a true bond.


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## martemchik

Konotashi said:


> Here's another viewpoint for you guys.
> 
> I consider myself pretty good at reading dog body language. Better than most people, better than most of my teammates. I did notice some nervous behavior from the pit when she was checking out the equipment (which is typical of most dogs who have never seen flyball stuff before), but she perked up and her stance turned friendly when she saw Sasha.
> 
> She started trotting up to her, but from the viewpoint of someone who ISN'T good at reading a dog's body language, what would your reaction be? If a loose pit bull's demeanor changes ENTIRELY as soon as it sees your dog, and starts coming over to you? Most people would probably panic, whether the dog on the end of your leash is DA or not. Sasha's owner knows how to read her dogs.


What about someone watching your training and then watching how one of the dogs is so dog aggressive that its handler can't stop their own dog and resorts to kicking someone else's? Sasha's owner might know how to read dogs, but she clearly can't control hers even when there is a leash on.

I'm not saying that the pit's owner was right, or any less wrong than your group. But when you're in public, taking advantage of the loosely enforced leash law, you should be alright with other people taking advantage of it as well.

I have a very friendly dog...he loves to play with other dogs. When I first started at my training club, people didn't really like the fact that my boy really loved to say hello to other dogs. They were worried because there aren't many GSDs that are that friendly. Now that people know me there, they know my dog, they don't worry when my boy comes up to them or one of their dogs to say hello. When we're in agility and "warming up" and he decides to say hello to a dog he knows, the instructor doesn't say anything because he just knows its my dog. You know Sasha's owner and her dog, you trust them, you say she gets "locked in." That has everything to do with why your POV. Anyone that doesn't know the two dogs or their owners would say that Sasha's owner is irresponsible for bringing a DA dog into public and then having plans of unleashing it.

By the way...in most places, police won't issue you a ticket for an unleashed dog. If your dog is clearly well trained or super friendly, police will give most people the benefit of the doubt that they aren't unleashing a killing machine. You'll really only get a ticket or a warning from a police officer if your dog does something stupid and brings up some sort of legal liability. Like in your case...if a fight had started, there were injuries, and some question of who was responsible...the off-leash dog would just be deemed responsible since it wasn't "under control." But if your dog isn't bothering people, no one decides to take it into their hands to call it in, police won't bother with issuing a citation for something that small. They just have better things to do than write up tickets for off-leash dogs.


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## bga

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> The OP deserves some criticism. But the fact remains that if the owner of the pit doesn't have control over his/her dog then that's just plain irresponsible. The OP has every right to try to deter a dog coming to her dog. Whether it is friendly or aggressive, it simply does. not. matter. AND double standards and contradictions do not therefore negate the actions of others. If you do not have control of your dog then ONLY you are responsible for what happens as a result. A little kick is the mild compared to some of the dangers a out of control dog is exposed to.
> 
> And imagine a person coming up to you, with no warning and sticking his head in your personal space - what? you wouldn't like that?. Then why do we expect our dogs to???? Why do we find it so necessary to force our dogs into social situations? Everyone "gasps in shock" at the thought of old school force training, but are perfectly fine dumping their dog into an artificial and transient "pack" at dog parks and forcing them into social interactions with other dogs, just because they didn't have the spheres to say NO!. So I think it's perfectly reasonable to deter a dog that's invading your personal space or your dogs - the public is no place for a dog that has not been taught to ignore other dogs.
> 
> Again, I am yet to see a good argument as to why we should "socialise" our dogs by putting them in positions where they are either forced to or choose to socialise with other dogs in preference to engaging with their owner.
> 
> Your dog should see YOU as the centre of its world, not some new dog it hasn't seen before, or a stranger that it wants to be best buddies with. That's a true bond.


Whether a dog is approaching my dog with the intention of draining its lifeblood or simply saying hi matters in the most fundamental way. To suggest it doesn't is simply disingenuous. By your logic, we would have the right to kick any dog approaching us, whether it is on or off-leash, friendly or agressive. That is simply not workable unless you live on an isolated farm or a deserted island.

Socialization matters temendously, especially in the formative years. It is not, as you suggest, an all or nothing scenario. Of course we shouldn't place our dogs in situations that cause them fear, but deliberately keeping them away from other dogs (or people or situations) is a surefire way to create behavoir problems when they encounter those things in the future. I also don't understand why you think socialzation implies that the owner is not going to be the centre of the dogs world. Is it not possible that the owner can still be the centre, while the dog has other secondary relationships, and is okay with the outside world? Any dog that is going to encounter people or other dogs regularly has to okay with it.

Speaking of socialization, there's a very aggressive shih tzu (yes a shih tzu) on our street that tried to get at my GSD (now passed ) every time we passed it on the sidewalk. And each and every time, the shih tzu owner would pick the dog up and walk 10-15 feet from the sidewalk, while we passed, all the while the shih tzu was snarling, barking, baring its teeth, frothing at the mouth etc. My dog would simply give the shih tzu an indfferent look and move on to the next pee spot. I wondered what the owner was thinking. Perhaps she considers herself to have saved her poor little shih tzu from the vicious GSD... I give her the benifit of the doubt though, and hope that she knows what really happened. 

Regarding the OP, think about the described incident from Sasha's perspective. Sasha sees a dog approach and her owner reacts by attempting to kick the approaching dog. The fellow flyballers all start yelling "Get away from that dog!" Sasha sees a calm situation escalate into one of nervousness, aggressivness, perhaps even panic. She'll associate this situaton with the appearance of the new dog. She'll react accordingly, by lashing out, by fleeing, by becoming agressive. Little wonder if she acts this way the next time a dog approaches. I have no idea what caused Sasha's aggresiveness originally. It may have had nothing to do with the current owner. However, on this occasion the reaction of those around Sasha very likely reinforced that agressiveness.


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## codmaster

Konotashi said:


> Here's another viewpoint for you guys.
> 
> I consider myself pretty good at reading dog body language. Better than most people, better than most of my teammates. I did notice some *nervous behavior* from the pit when she was checking out the equipment (which is typical of most dogs who have never seen flyball stuff before), but she perked up and her stance turned friendly when she saw Sasha.
> 
> She started trotting up to her, but from the viewpoint of someone who ISN'T good at reading a dog's body language, what would your reaction be? If *a loose pit bull's demeanor* changes ENTIRELY as soon as it sees your dog, and starts coming over to you? Most people would probably panic, whether the dog on the end of your leash is DA or not. Sasha's owner knows how to read her dogs.


 
Why "a loose *pit bull's* ....) - wouldn't it be the same for a " loose *GSD* ...". Or most any other large dog? Any dog?

Wasn't Sasha ALSO off lead? And known to be DA? 

Wonder why someone with a known DA dog have it off lead in a public area known to have other dogs in it? HHHMMM?


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## Blanketback

In the olden days, before such things as dog parks and leash laws, the dogs could read each other. I used to have a great time in our local park, with my first GSD. Every once in a while someone would walk by with their dog on a leash and yell for us to keep our dogs away from theirs. It was a non-issue, because none of the dogs even attempted to get near the leashed one. Nowadays, many dogs don't even get the opportunity to learn their own language. Is this part of the problem?


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## shepherdmom

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> Can I ask any of you why you do find it necesary to socialise your dog with other non-pack member dogs???


I socialize my dogs at the vet so I can take them there without worries. I do not anymore socialize them other places. No dog parks, Petsmart visits or anything like that.


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## blehmannwa

Blanketback said:


> In the olden days, before such things as dog parks and leash laws, the dogs could read each other. I used to have a great time in our local park, with my first GSD. Every once in a while someone would walk by with their dog on a leash and yell for us to keep our dogs away from theirs. It was a non-issue, because none of the dogs even attempted to get near the leashed one. Nowadays, many dogs don't even get the opportunity to learn their own language. Is this part of the problem?


This is interesting. When I lived in rural Montana we frequently had gatherings with ten to fifteen dogs in attendance. The dogs seemed to select their own society. Some would chill in the house, others would play in the pastures. There was little conflict and things blew over fast. I think it had to do with space.

Somewhere there's a photo of me shredding chicken with 2GSDX, two goldens, two labs, a beagle, an elderly pit mix, a full pit and an Aussie cattle dog all crowded into a narrow kitchen hoping for a chicken scrap. All of these dogs were primarily free range dogs and most of them had nodding acquaintances with the others. There was not a bit of tension between them.


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## Konotashi

codmaster said:


> Why "a loose *pit bull's* ....) - wouldn't it be the same for a " loose *GSD* ...". Or most any other large dog? Any dog?
> 
> Wasn't Sasha ALSO off lead? And known to be DA?
> 
> Wonder why someone with a known DA dog have it off lead in a public area known to have other dogs in it? HHHMMM?


NO. Sasha was on a leash when this happened! I failed to clarify in my original post, but I did state that in a later post.
All of our dogs are always kept on a leash until they're lined up.

And the GSD isn't the one that ran up to them, the pit did.
And as many of you know, a lot of bits are inherently DA. Throw two DA dogs together and you get a party.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Well........ 

My old rescue GSD, Max was DA. I walked him everywhere I could but worked at avoiding close encounters with other dogs. He was always under control and leashed. 

One of our favorite places to walk was Columbia Park in Kennewick, WA. Although technically, leashes were required most people let their dog off leash. I really have no problem with that provided the dog was under voice control. When we had people approach us with off leash dogs I moved away. If they continued to pursue us I called to them to get their dog as my dog was afraid. In most cases DA dogs are afraid. It was rare to have an incident. 

It may be that law in the OP's area is not necessarily a leash law as apposed to an under control law. AN out of control dog has no business off leash whether there is DA dog there or not. It would not have matterd whther the dog approached (Sasha) was DA or not, she was leashed adn under control. 

It really makes no difference whther the OP's flyball club might have been technically violating the leash law. It seems most users of the park do the same ting and it has become "acceptable". 

Seems many here just has to go legalistic and blame a poor dog that was leashed, under control, and did not like off leash dogs in it's face. I don't get that. Maybe why I spend little time on this board. Konotashi you ougth to come join us on the nicer board.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Well........
> 
> *My old rescue GSD, Max was DA.* I walked him everywhere I could but worked at avoiding close encounters with other dogs. He was always under control and leashed.
> 
> One of our favorite places to walk was Columbia Park in Kennewick, WA. Although technically, leashes were required most people let their dog off leash. I really have no problem with that provided the dog was under voice control. When we had people approach us with off leash dogs I moved away. If they continued to pursue us I called to them to get their dog as my dog was afraid. In most cases DA dogs are afraid. It was rare to have an incident.
> 
> It may be that law in the OP's area is not necessarily a leash law as apposed to an under control law. AN out of control dog has no business off leash whether there is DA dog there or not. It would not have matterd whther the dog approached (Sasha) was DA or not, she was leashed adn under control.
> 
> It really makes no difference whther the OP's flyball club might have been technically violating the leash law. It seems most users of the park do the same ting and it has become "acceptable".
> 
> Seems many here just has to go legalistic and blame a poor dog that was leashed, under control, and did not like off leash dogs in it's face. I don't get that. Maybe why I spend little time on this board. Konotashi you ougth to come join us on the nicer board.


Kathy,
I agree with you a hundred percent - probably because my old GSD was also DA. I know first hand how it is to deal with that and not have other people respect our space. There were so many times, people would call to me that their off leash dog was friendly. Lot of good that did me, my dog - or heck, even their dog.

For some people to say, "How dare someone kick my friendly dog and I would be ready to punch someone out for that" What are they thinking? Bottom line to me, if I am obeying the law by keeping my dog leashed, I kick at an off-leash dog who approaches mine and I get punched in the face.....Well, I would be filing charges against that off-leash dog owner for assault.


----------



## bga

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Well........
> 
> My old rescue GSD, Max was DA. I walked him everywhere I could but worked at avoiding close encounters with other dogs. He was always under control and leashed.
> 
> One of our favorite places to walk was Columbia Park in Kennewick, WA. Although technically, leashes were required most people let their dog off leash. I really have no problem with that provided the dog was under voice control. When we had people approach us with off leash dogs I moved away. If they continued to pursue us I called to them to get their dog as my dog was afraid. In most cases DA dogs are afraid. It was rare to have an incident.
> 
> It may be that law in the OP's area is not necessarily a leash law as apposed to an under control law. AN out of control dog has no business off leash whether there is DA dog there or not. It would not have matterd whther the dog approached (Sasha) was DA or not, she was leashed adn under control.
> 
> It really makes no difference whther the OP's flyball club might have been technically violating the leash law. It seems most users of the park do the same ting and it has become "acceptable".
> 
> Seems many here just has to go legalistic and blame a poor dog that was leashed, under control, and did not like off leash dogs in it's face. I don't get that. Maybe why I spend little time on this board. Konotashi you ougth to come join us on the nicer board.


Is the nicer board more tolerant of people who think it's okay to kick off leash dogs, and call people "igornant and stupid"? I think most of us would agree that both sets of dogs should have been leashed, but people are rightly upset at the reaction of Sasha's owner, and the OP was extremely one-sided. I appreciate the special challenges that DA dogs bring, but there are degrees of irresponsibility here. Having an uncontrolled dog off leash is bad. Bringing an DA dog to a place likely to encounter that is also bad. Offering to kick the friendly dog trumps both.... If someone kicked my dog, a dog that had not shown an ounce of aggression in 13 years, a dog that I had painstakingly trained and socialised ... well I would simply lose it. This is not a nice / wise way to behave and that's not a legal statement.


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## bga

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Kathy,
> 
> 
> For some people to say, "How dare someone kick my friendly dog and I would be ready to punch someone out for that" What are they thinking? Bottom line to me, if I am obeying the law by keeping my dog leashed, I kick at an off-leash dog who approaches mine and I get punched in the face.....Well, I would be filing charges against that off-leash dog owner for assault.


And you'd have every right... just as I'd have a right to file charges for animal abuse if you actually made contact with my dog, which would also be violating laws in many states. Sure my charge would be more serious, but I wouldn't stand by while a person abused an animal. It's a price I'd be willing to pay. My opinion is that the thinking bit went out the window with that original kick.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Hey bga I am a really nice person and the other board is generally far more polite and tolerant of others. It seems to lack the shark attack I see quite often here. I look at inncocent questions where someone really wants an answer and come back a few days later to see thread closed cause it got nasty. And I wonder how did such a innocent ? invite that? 

Back on topic.....

However........... I do not care if it is legal, illegal, off leash, on leash, verbal control, etc. IF an off leash dog approached my dogs and I am not certain of intent and my dog or dogs (who are friendly) appear to be uncomfortable AND the owner is not responding IF I have to kick to protect mine - OH WELL. Do I want to do that? No I don't, but I will if I have to. 

I believe the OP stated the dog was not kicked but the Sasha's owner was prepared to kick the dog. 

An old story...... I used to live in Umatilla, OR. Was walking Kayos who is pretty dog friendly. Lady opened door to get her mail, out runs her Chihauahau. Itty bitty little dog was chasing and snarling and snapping at me. Kayos was becoming upset and beginning to growl at the dog. The lady said she was afraid of my dog. The dog bites my pants, Kayos is now pissed. I can tell by her face and ear set, yet she never tried to attack the dog and never even barked at it because I told her to leave it. All she did was one low rumble. I finally dislodged the dog by kicking at it with my other foot. The lady was not happy. A cop witnessed the whole thing and did NOTHING to help the lady get her dog. He had the testicles to suggest I was not nice. I could have really hurt that dog but I did not want to. However, I was not going to let the dog continue to bite at me or my dog or threaten me or my dog. I told th cop if he felt he could not enforce the leash law he could shut up and mind his own business. I went on my way with my friendly leashed dog at heel.

Bottom line out of control off leash dog rushing me and a threat to me or my dog whether DA or not is not going to be well recieved and if I have to kick it protect me and mine - gonna get kicked. Sorry.


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## martemchik

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Seems many here just has to go legalistic and blame a poor dog that was leashed, under control, and did not like off leash dogs in it's face. I don't get that. Maybe why I spend little time on this board. Konotashi you ougth to come join us on the nicer board.


The thing is...that dog wasn't under control...even with a leash on, it was reacting and lunging towards the "friendly" dog. Then on top of that...the plan was to remove the leash from that dog!

I don't believe the lady with the pitbull was in the right, and I do think she's irresponsible. My whole point is that getting mad about it and ranting on a forum, you'll get a good discussion (which this has been) on what actually went on and why you shouldn't get super upset at people for not being "up to your standards" when it comes to pet obedience.

By the way...to invite someone onto a forum where everyone will just agree with them seems kind of counter productive. A discussion shouldn't just involve a bunch of "yes men" that tell the OP how right they are and how wrong the other person was.

I think we all sometimes forget that 95% of the people out there don't look at dogs and dog training the same way we do. People aren't out there training in fly-ball, agility, obedience, Schutzhund, ect. People have pet dogs which they allow to run around and as long as they don't hurt anyone, no one cares about their obedience or "responsibility."

I know you understand what its like to have a DA dog...but its just as irresponsible to bring a DA dog to a park where you KNOW there will be off leash dogs. It doesn't matter what the law is, or to what length you will go to "protect" your dog. You know the park doesn't follow the leash law and you still bring the dog into the park, IMO that is just asking for trouble.

It's almost like going to a racetrack and driving the state speed limit and then getting pissed that people are "speeding."

If you don't want to be bothered by other people and their dogs when you're training...do it on PRIVATE land.


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## martemchik

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Hey bga I am a really nice person and the other board is generally far more polite and tolerant of others. It seems to lack the shark attack I see quite often here. I look at inncocent questions where someone really wants an answer and come back a few days later to see thread closed cause it got nasty. And I wonder how did such a innocent ? invite that?
> 
> Back on topic.....
> 
> However........... I do not care if it is legal, illegal, off leash, on leash, verbal control, etc. IF an off leash dog approached my dogs and I am not certain of intent and my dog or dogs (who are friendly) appear to be uncomfortable AND the owner is not responding IF I have to kick to protect mine - OH WELL. Do I want to do that? No I don't, but I will if I have to.
> 
> I believe the OP stated the dog was not kicked but the Sasha's owner was prepared to kick the dog.
> 
> An old story...... I used to live in Umatilla, OR. Was walking Kayos who is pretty dog friendly. Lady opened door to get her mail, out runs her Chihauahau. Itty bitty little dog was chasing and snarling and snapping at me. Kayos was becoming upset and beginning to growl at the dog. The lady said she was afraid of my dog. The dog bites my pants, Kayos is now pissed. I can tell by her face and ear set, yet she never tried to attack the dog and never even barked at it because I told her to leave it. All she did was one low rumble. I finally dislodged the dog by kicking at it with my other foot. The lady was not happy. A cop witnessed the whole thing and did NOTHING to help the lady get her dog. He had the testicles to suggest I was not nice. I could have really hurt that dog but I did not want to. However, I was not going to let the dog continue to bite at me or my dog or threaten me or my dog. I told th cop if he felt he could not enforce the leash law he could shut up and mind his own business. I went on my way with my friendly leashed dog at heel.
> 
> Bottom line out of control off leash dog rushing me and a threat to me or my dog whether DA or not is not going to be well recieved and if I have to kick it protect me and mine - gonna get kicked. Sorry.


First...I haven't seen a single post this whole thread that has been anything but respectful towards the OP. Differing opinions were exchanged, the story was written from the "other side," and not a single person has made any comments about how the OP is completely wrong in this situation.

In your story...this happened on a street where leash laws should be enforced. I could care less that the cop was an idiot who for some reason cared more about the kick you placed on the dog than the fact that it was biting your pant leg. But a city street where law enforcement is expected, is different than a park where the law is not enforced. The group purposely goes to a park where they know the law isn't enforced, they know what to expect, they should understand the risk of being able to go around the law themselves leaves them open to these types of situations where people take the same liberties with the law.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

martemchik said:


> By the way...to invite someone onto a forum where everyone will just agree with them seems kind of counter productive. A discussion shouldn't just involve a bunch of "yes men" that tell the OP how right they are and how wrong the other person was.


 
Never siad they all agreed, just a bit nicer about it is all.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Years ago, when I only had two kids and a Samoyed puppy, I took them to the park. The kids were 2 and 6 years old. It was a people park, not a dog park. Dogs were supposed to be leashed. Before long, we were approached by a large friendly off leash lab. I told the woman to get her dog. She called back that he was friendly. Meanwhile the over-exuberant lab was all over my puppy and little kids. One of the reasons we had gotten our puppy was because my 6 year old was terrified of dogs. The puppy was a God-send. Now here she was being jumped on and pawed by a huge, strange dog.

I am sorry for those who cannot understand the damage that can be done by a "friendly" off-leash dog. I don't remember if I hit or kicked the lab, but I might have. 

It isn't people on other boards being "nicer" as in agreeing with everything that is said. It is about disagreeing in a respectful manner. Some people here tend to get hot under the collar, spout off a lot of stuff and think that makes them right. People stop responding, because it gets pointless or as previously mentioned - the thread is closed.


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## Kayos and Havoc

You said just what I wanted to say, only nicer!


----------



## bga

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Hey bga I am a really nice person and the other board is generally far more polite and tolerant of others. It seems to lack the shark attack I see quite often here. I look at inncocent questions where someone really wants an answer and come back a few days later to see thread closed cause it got nasty. And I wonder how did such a innocent ? invite that?
> 
> Back on topic.....
> 
> However........... I do not care if it is legal, illegal, off leash, on leash, verbal control, etc. IF an off leash dog approached my dogs and I am not certain of intent and my dog or dogs (who are friendly) appear to be uncomfortable AND the owner is not responding IF I have to kick to protect mine - OH WELL. Do I want to do that? No I don't, but I will if I have to.
> 
> I believe the OP stated the dog was not kicked but the Sasha's owner was prepared to kick the dog.
> 
> An old story...... I used to live in Umatilla, OR. Was walking Kayos who is pretty dog friendly. Lady opened door to get her mail, out runs her Chihauahau. Itty bitty little dog was chasing and snarling and snapping at me. Kayos was becoming upset and beginning to growl at the dog. The lady said she was afraid of my dog. The dog bites my pants, Kayos is now pissed. I can tell by her face and ear set, yet she never tried to attack the dog and never even barked at it because I told her to leave it. All she did was one low rumble. I finally dislodged the dog by kicking at it with my other foot. The lady was not happy. A cop witnessed the whole thing and did NOTHING to help the lady get her dog. He had the testicles to suggest I was not nice. I could have really hurt that dog but I did not want to. However, I was not going to let the dog continue to bite at me or my dog or threaten me or my dog. I told th cop if he felt he could not enforce the leash law he could shut up and mind his own business. I went on my way with my friendly leashed dog at heel.
> 
> Bottom line out of control off leash dog rushing me and a threat to me or my dog whether DA or not is not going to be well recieved and if I have to kick it protect me and mine - gonna get kicked. Sorry.


Kathy,

I don't think we disagree on this. I would also kick that dog. The key difference is that the Chihauahau was acting like a maniac, while your dog was remarkably controlled. This is the opposite of what the OP described.

A similar thing happened to me once. A smaller dog (can't remember exactly what kind but it could not have been more than 10 pounds) attacked my GSD. It couldn't really do any damage because it was so small and it kept getting mouthfulls of fur from around my GSD's neck. My dog, although a little shaken simply mouthed that dog against the ground without biting it. The owner simply ran up all panicked, and stood there watching, so lifted the small dog with my foot and flung it towards the owner, so they could recover it.

The situation you describe is not the same as kicking an off leash dog with no aggressive intent. I said in a previous post that I had good control of my dog, but not perfect. There were a few occasions in 13 years where she was off leash in either a dog park or a remote wooded area where she came across people or dogs that for some reason she was simply obsessed with, and would not return to me immediately. I think this can be said of almost any dog occasionally. .... but she would never be agressive. It is this kind of situation where I would have a problem with kicking.


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## martemchik

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Years ago, when I only had two kids and a Samoyed puppy, I took them to the park. The kids were 2 and 6 years old. It was a people park, not a dog park. Dogs were supposed to be leashed. Before long, we were approached by a large friendly off leash lab. I told the woman to get her dog. She called back that he was friendly. Meanwhile the over-exuberant lab was all over my puppy and little kids. One of the reasons we had gotten our puppy was because my 6 year old was terrified of dogs. The puppy was a God-send. Now here she was being jumped on and pawed by a huge, strange dog.
> 
> I am sorry for those who cannot understand the damage that can be done by a "friendly" off-leash dog. I don't remember if I hit or kicked the lab, but I might have.


Yes...very true people need to learn the issues with their "friendly" dogs. But spouting off our own personal stories doesn't affect this one.

You were at a people park, it doesn't sound like there was acceptance by most users of that park that dogs were allowed to be off-leash. In that situation, it is wrong to have your dog off-leash.

I go to a county park by Lake Michigan weekly in the summer. Before you walk into the forested park area it clearly states, and reminds you, that all dogs should be on leash. The park is filled with paths that run through the forest and it is very rare that you see another dog/person walking through the trails. When you do, they are usually off-leash and it is clear that the leash law isn't obeyed. If you head out to the beach, it isn't really a people friendly beach (rocky bottom and sand) and although some people use it instead of the one about a mile south of there, no one cares that friendly dogs are off-leash there. I can play fetch with my dog, let him swim, ect.

The park also has some very large fields. Great for fetch and also training. I've trained my dog off-leash there plenty of times. Done long distance sits/downs/recalls. People have seen me, and if they do react its usually positive with admiration that I can make my dog sit/down/recall at such a distance.

At a park like this...if I ran into an off-leash dog (even if mine was leashed at the time) I wouldn't think twice about it. I wouldn't get angry at the owner that they don't have the same control of their dog that I have of mine.

But I will add...that I do not allow my dog to bother anyone at the park. If there are families having picnics, or clearly walking with their dog on-lead and not wanting to be bothered. I would not ever allow my dog to come over to them. I also didn't go to this park before my dog's recall was 99% reliable, as I do respect other's wishes.


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## Kayos and Havoc

bga said:


> Kathy,
> 
> I don't think we disagree on this. I would also kick that dog. The key difference is that the Chihauahau was acting like a maniac, while your dog was remarkably controlled. This is the opposite of what the OP described.
> 
> A similar thing happened to me once. A smaller dog (can't remember exactly what kind but it could not have been more than 10 pounds) attacked my GSD. It couldn't really do any damage because it was so small and it kept getting mouthfulls of fur from around my GSD's neck. My dog, although a little shaken simply mouthed that dog against the ground without biting it. The owner simply ran up all panicked, and stood there watching, so lifted the small dog with my foot and flung it towards the owner, so they could recover it.
> 
> The situation you describe is not the same as kicking an off leash dog with no aggressive intent. I said in a previous post that I had good control of my dog, but not perfect. There were a few occasions in 13 years where she was off leash in either a dog park or a remote wooded area where she came across people or dogs that for some reason she was simply obsessed with, and would not return to me immediately. I think this can be said of almost any dog occasionally. .... but she would never be agressive. It is this kind of situation where I would have a problem with kicking.


We agree in part. 

Whether the OP friend dog was lungeing and barking or not is irrelevant. 
Whether the flyball club violoted leash laws or not is irrelevant. At the time the incident occurred the OP friend dog was leashed. The OP friend dog lost control when approached by the off leash dog. Off leash dog owner was warned. 

If this is a public park the public has a right to be there with and without dogs. No one has the right to let an off leash dog friendly or not accost any other dog friendly or not. 

My dog in my story may have been in the right. I do not think the OP friend dog was in the wrong. Not one bit. 

MHO........


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## Kayos and Havoc

Just addidng.....

My dogs have been the rude dog. I have been supremely embarrassed at the rare occassion this happens. I apologize til I am red in the face. Thankfully my dogs have never aggressed and caused hurt.

When I encounter off leash dogs for the most part I am cordial. I take a a no harm no foul approach. But if the other owner is flip or refuses to act I will get upset with them. I am not afroad of conflict in that regard.We all have to get along together and I believe I do my part with my dogs. iI would be nice if the whole world did but that is a fantasy.


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## martemchik

I don't want the OP to take this the wrong way...but this is one of those rants that IMO shouldn't be up on the forum. If its here for discussion, that's great, but if you're looking for agreement and a rally cry from strangers, you're not going to ever get it here.

I rant about people and their dogs that I meet all the time. My GF just lives with it, listens nicely, and reminds me that not everyone has the same kinds of training goals I do so I can't get mad at the general public for being that...the general public. Would I love for people to take more responsibility when it comes to their pets? Absolutely...but it just isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I don't think anything happened in this story...no one was in the right, no one was in the wrong, it was just a rant about a person. I read the story and it really sounded like OP was alright with people breaking a leash law as long as their dog was up to OP's training standard (or the OP knew them) but since this person wasn't, they shouldn't be allowed to have the same fun that the fly-ball team is having. So to me, it was just very hypocritical.

We sometimes just need that reminder that not everyone is sitting on a GSD forum worrying about their dog's every interaction. Or how to train their dog for the next obedience level. I believe we need reminders that although people are our friends, and they know how to handle dogs, the general public has way different opinions on any type of aggressive dog. The public doesn't want those dogs anywhere around them and sadly...an off leash friendly dog is more acceptable than a DA leashed dog. Most times because no one understands that DA and HA can be two completely different things.

So back to the OP...it was a great story, I love these stories on this forum and the discussion we tend to get. I think its great seeing everyone's different opinions and being able to argue a little back and forth. Personally...I would never post one of these (my first thread ever was about a personal story and I got ripped apart for my "actions", so I'll never do that again). I realized...unless you write out a novel, telling every little piece of the story in vivid, graphic, detail, you will get a lot of assumptions and a lot of different opinions. It's just not worth the aggravation.


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## Konotashi

martemchik said:


> The thing is...that dog wasn't under control...even with a leash on, it was reacting and lunging towards the "friendly" dog. Then on top of that...the plan was to remove the leash from that dog!


When did I EVER say any of that? What you just said was an assumption.

The only thing I ever said was Sasha was on a leash (after failing to mention it in my original post). I only ever said anything about her owner's reaction and the fact Sasha is known to be DA. I NEVER said Sasha was lunging, out of control, reacting, etc. 

I'm sure her owner's reaction (body blocking, holding Sasha's head, hanging, etc) stemmed from several things:
1) A pit bull with undetermined intentions was approaching, and fairly quickly. 
2) Her dog is DA with strange dogs. 
3) She and her husband have been working hard with her on her DA at home and don't want it all unraveled because of one incident.

Sasha was NOT lunging, growling, barking, reacting, etc. at the other dog. No, she didn't appreciate her owner choking her and holding her head, but her owner was going to do what she had to do to prevent a dog fight between her dog and a pit bull. Including kicking (at) the friendly pit bull, while the pit's owner stood there like a vegetable during all this.


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## bga

Kayos and Havoc said:


> We agree in part.
> 
> ....
> 
> My dog in my story may have been in the right. I do not think the OP friend dog was in the wrong. Not one bit.
> 
> MHO........


I don't think either dog was in the wrong. I think both owners were. 

I'm not excusing off-leash dogs, even friendly ones. I just see a vast difference in the 'amount of damage" they can do compared to an aggressive dog. Seems like we're all (myself included) going in circles here. Only the OP was actually there. I'm also sure the unleashed dog owner would have a different version of what happened. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## martemchik

Konotashi said:


> When did I EVER say any of that? What you just said was an assumption.


And therein lies the problem...

I assumed the owner had freaked out because her dog was freaking out. But instead...this "all knowing" owner, decided to go against all recent/current dog logic and freak out at the situation before her dog did.

All current thought says...if you stay calm, your dog is more likely to stay calm. In this case the owner reacted, and probably caused her dog to react as well. The owner was pretty much showing her dog (Sasha) that strange dogs are not safe/good and should be dispatched with any means necessary.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't have reacted the same way, but the fact is, you agreed with Sasha's owners reaction BECAUSE you know her. You didn't look at it from a "trainer/behaviorist" POV which states that the owner is probably the cause of some of those problems.

Without seeing the dog react, or knowing the dog more, I won't even start to pretend that my interpretation of what you just described is correct/incorrect. But its just another view point to what had gone on that day.

Also...for as knowledgeable as your friend sounds...its very very easy to tell if a dog has a friendly demeanor or an unfriendly one. I've noticed that if a dog truly wants to start a fight...its very very hard to prevent it. There are also some very apparent signs as to a friendliness of a dog...starting with the tail and the ears and some other factors such as barking/growling as it approaches.


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## Konotashi

Just throwing this out there... just because someone is in flyball doesn't mean they're generally knowledgeable about dogs.... 

But we were calling out because we know Sasha is/can be DA, and of ALL breeds to be approaching her, it was a pit bull.
I have nothing against pits, but considering I live with one that doesn't get along with one of our other dogs, I know how quick a fight can start, how nasty they can be, and how hard they are to break up.


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## ShatteringGlass

To those opposed to kicking an approaching "friendly" dog away from you....

WHY do my dog and I HAVE to like a strange dog approaching us? Why can't I tell your dog to go away? Do you run up to strangers, get in their face and ask them how their day is going? If you got pushed away because the person didn't like "friendly" strangers in their face, would you think they where wrong?

How about if you were tethered to something, and a stranger comes running towards you, you're nervous because you don't know what they want, and you can't run away because you're tethered....

My female Sydney hated when dogs ran up in her face, she wasn't dog aggressive, as she never just randomly went after dogs, she just hated if a lose dog got up in her face, so you bet I've kicked away my fair share of "friendly" dogs, or would of it been better that i drop the leash and let Sydney show the other dog how much she didn't like being approached like that?


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## Konotashi

Oh, and I don't disagree with you in the slightest that some (if not all) of Sasha's DA stems from her owners' reactions with her around other dogs. I'm sure she started out DA to a degree, but their reactions made it worse. But they have been working with trainers and behaviorists and we have been able to see a notable difference.

But in that respect, I agree 100% that her owners' reactions aren't/weren't helping with her DA.


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## codmaster

martemchik said:


> And therein lies the problem...
> 
> I assumed the owner had freaked out because her dog was freaking out. But instead...this "all knowing" owner, decided to go against all recent/current dog logic and freak out at the situation before her dog did.
> 
> All current thought says...if you stay calm, your dog is more likely to stay calm. In this case the owner reacted, and probably caused her dog to react as well. The owner was pretty much showing her dog (Sasha) that strange dogs are not safe/good and should be dispatched with any means necessary.
> 
> I'm not saying that I wouldn't have reacted the same way, but the fact is, you agreed with Sasha's owners reaction BECAUSE you know her. You didn't look at it from a "trainer/behaviorist" POV which states that the owner is probably the cause of some of those problems.
> 
> Without seeing the dog react, or knowing the dog more, I won't even start to pretend that my interpretation of what you just described is correct/incorrect. But its just another view point to what had gone on that day.
> 
> Also...for as knowledgeable as your friend sounds...its very very easy to *tell if a dog has a friendly demeanor or an unfriendly one.* I've noticed that if a dog truly wants to start a fight...its very very hard to prevent it. There are also some *very apparent signs as to a friendliness* of a dog...starting with the tail and the ears and some other factors such as barking/growling as it approaches.


*Got to agree with her!*

*Plus, many dogs will certainly pick up their reaction to a stranger (canine or human) from their owners reraction. Mine certainly does - I can guarantee his reaction will be aggressive if i am acting that way to someone/something approaching us.*


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## codmaster

ShatteringGlass said:


> To those opposed to kicking an approaching "friendly" dog away from you....
> 
> WHY do my dog and I HAVE to like a strange dog approaching us? Why can't I tell your dog to go away? Do you run up to strangers, get in their face and ask them how their day is going? If you got pushed away because the person didn't like "friendly" strangers in their face, would you think they where wrong?
> 
> How about if you were tethered to something, and a stranger comes running towards you, you're nervous because you don't know what they want, and you can't run away because you're tethered....
> 
> My female Sydney hated when dogs ran up in her face, she wasn't dog aggressive, as she never just randomly went after dogs, she just hated if a lose dog got up in her face, so you bet I've kicked away my fair share of "friendly" dogs, or would of it been better that i drop the leash and let Sydney show the other dog how much she didn't like being approached like that?


One big question is WHEN you try to kick an approaching dog and what has the dog done besides come close to you/your dog?

What if the dog is walking on the path toward your dog and simply passes next to your dog without any moves toward it - just walking by but right next to you and your dog?

OK to kick him to get him/her away from you - to move him further away from you?

Obviously not OK!

BTW, if my dog was walking close to yours and you kicked at him , then either him or I (both!) would be then all over you!

If my dog came running up to you and made contact with either you or your dog, then kicking would be a reasonable action (dangerous for the kicker but ok).

Just a thought or two.


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## bga

ShatteringGlass said:


> To those opposed to kicking an approaching "friendly" dog away from you....
> 
> WHY do my dog and I HAVE to like a strange dog approaching us? Why can't I tell your dog to go away? Do you run up to strangers, get in their face and ask them how their day is going? If you got pushed away because the person didn't like "friendly" strangers in their face, would you think they where wrong?
> 
> How about if you were tethered to something, and a stranger comes running towards you, you're nervous because you don't know what they want, and you can't run away because you're tethered....
> 
> My female Sydney hated when dogs ran up in her face, she wasn't dog aggressive, as she never just randomly went after dogs, she just hated if a lose dog got up in her face, so you bet I've kicked away my fair share of "friendly" dogs, or would of it been better that i drop the leash and let Sydney show the other dog how much she didn't like being approached like that?


I agree with codemaster's response....

It's not an all or nothing scenario. There are situations where a kick is warranted and few people would fault you for it. I don't think an off-leash dog automatically qualifies, particularly if it is friendly, or as you say, "friendly". In most cases, it would not. If your dog reacts fearfully every time, then respectfully, you need to work on that.

And no I don't run up to strangers and get in their face. Nor would I like it if people did that to me. Then again, I don't like sniffing my fellow human's butts.... :laugh:

You're comparing apples and oranges.


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## Konotashi

In this situation, I do feel a kick was warranted. Whether contact was made or not. She was yelling at the dog, restraining Sasha, and doing everything she could to protect the pit and Sasha from getting into a fight. But I do agree that every situation is different and needs to be handled differently.

With that being said, it should never be ONE of the two dogs' owners responsibility to prevent a fight, unless that one owner is the one with the loose dog.


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## selzer

What I don't understand is that there is a park, dogs are _supposed to be_ on leash, but it is well know that that is ignored. 

Now, there are dogs playing, doing their thing, and a group of dogs and owners arrives and starts to set up camp. Now, everyone in the park had better snag their otherwise behaving dogs, and stop their visit because one of these dogs isn't friendly. 

If I have an unfriendly dog, I would not take it to a place where dogs are likely to be running around off lead. I would not expect everyone else to stop what they were doing so that my dog could be his solitary self. If I wanted to practice with a team some sort of sport, I would find some private property or training place that I could rent for the day, or go to one of the homes of one of the team members. I would not do this sort of thing in a public park where dogs are generally off-lead. 

Fly ball -- sounds like balls are flying about. Many off-lead parks have rules about not bringing balls or toys because they will cause dogs to go nutty and some will resource guard. They can cause issues. I just think that the choice of where to practice was poor, especially since one of the dogs was being worked through a serious problem with dogs. 

I don't think that the answer is to rant about how irresponsible other people are with their dogs. I think that looking at it calmly and not throwing blame around, you could probably come up with a better choice for where to do your practicing. 

This is the problem with placing the blame on everyone or anyone else. We cannot change their behavior. We cannot ensure that another person will not come and do something just as bad or worse the next time. If instead of saying "Look what she did!" you could say, "How could we have managed that differently?" you can get a lot farther. 

And your blood pressure numbers will be better, and you will not have a hole in your stomach by the time you are in your forties.


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## selzer

I have to say one more thing. When the Yourkie-mixture was charging and running around Ninja and I at a park, we walked all the way to my car and she (Ninja) sat there waiting for me to unlock the car and get her inside, and never once did I kick at the dog. 

I was ticked off, yes. My dog was right, I was right, we were leashed, the other guy had no control whatsoever, his dog was NOT friendly, but no one got kicked and no one got bit, and somehow, the sun came up the next day. 

I have to agree with whoever said that the best reaction is to remain calm. I told Ninja, "LEAVE IT" and then HEEL, and it worked. Actually shocked me that it worked so well, considering I have a lot of dogs and that one hadn't been off my property in years, save to go to the vet. But by remaining calm, and moving forward to get to my car we were able to come away unscathed, leaving everyone else intact as well.


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## Konotashi

I never said that we expect everyone to leash up their dogs and leave.

However, I DO expect enough respect from strangers to not walk straight through our setup with their unruly dogs, running in our dogs' crates and running up to our dogs. We are busy and honestly don't have time to worry about other people and their dogs running around in our setup.

Yes, we do get a lot of curious bystanders. But they almost always have enough respect to keep their distance until someone isn't busy and can make their way over there to talk to them about the sport.

Never before has someone walked THROUGH our setup.


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## ShatteringGlass

If you're dog is close enough for me to kick, then you're dog is too close. There's no need for you're dog to approach my dog that close without you even ASKING if it is ok. 

You don't know my dog and I don't know yours, and if it's off leash while mine is, and you don't ask if it's ok for your dog to approach and you continue to let your dog approach and it's within leg distance, then YEP I'm sticking my leg out and giving a shove to keep your dog away from mine if my dog doesn't like strange dogs in their face


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## ShatteringGlass

bga said:


> I agree with codemaster's response....
> 
> It's not an all or nothing scenario. There are situations where a kick is warranted and few people would fault you for it. I don't think an off-leash dog automatically qualifies, particularly if it is friendly, or as you say, "friendly". In most cases, it would not. If your dog reacts fearfully every time, then respectfully, you need to work on that.
> 
> And no I don't run up to strangers and get in their face. Nor would I like it if people did that to me. Then again, I don't like sniffing my fellow human's butts.... :laugh:
> 
> You're comparing apples and oranges.


No, I don't expect my dog to enjoy annoying dogs who are loose running up in his/her face when he/she are leashed. Why is my dog not entitled to personal space? Why does she/he have to tolerate something that should be completely avoidable (an owner obeying rules/being mindful of other dogs & owners).


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## selzer

What rules are we talking about -- oh the ones the fly ball team were going to violate? 

If you don't want dogs approaching your dogs, then don't go where loose dogs are congregating. It sounds like a pretty simple rule to me. I don't go to such places. That way I generally do not have to worry about these things. 

Most of our parks and beaches say "NO DOGS ALLOWED." The rest state clearly that all dogs must be leashed and you must pick up after them. The nearest place where dogs generally run around unleashed is nearly an hour away. 

I know there it is on the aggressive dog, not the friendly dog. People that do not own aggressive dogs really do not realize that people bring dogs out to parks that will act like that. I am not surprised that the owner was incensed that someone threatened to or kicked at it. I must live in a really sheltered area, as I have yet to have to kick anyone's dog.


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## Konotashi

From my understanding, as I mentioned in a previous post, our team is NOT violating leash laws.

Arizona law states that if dogs are being trained for a kennel club event and are under control of the handler and/or trainer, it is okay for the dog to be off-lead.
Although I don't believe NAFA or UFLI are considered kennel clubs, flyball titles ARE accepted by AKC now.
So from my _understanding_ (so I could be wrong!) we are in compliance with the law.


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## Shade

Respect has to flow both ways

Your group brought their dogs and equipment to a *public* area and take over space but expect every other animal and human to avoid it completely. Sorry, I don't see that as respectful

Private land, yes you can demand respect. It's either yours or you're borrowing it from the owner. Public land is public, each person is entitled to every square inch as much as the next person 

As for the kicking, Delgado was attacked by a husky when he was about 7 months. The husky grabbed his scruff and pinned him growling and snapping. No yelping or blood, both owners were inches away and we got them separated quickly. No kicking or yelling, a quick check for injuries and a "you ok?" and we walked seperate ways. If Delgado was screaming and there was blood spurting then yes I would have beat that dog off mine until they backed off. It was scary but aggressive mannerisms escalate not calm situations


----------



## bga

ShatteringGlass said:


> No, I don't expect my dog to enjoy annoying dogs who are loose running up in his/her face when he/she are leashed. Why is my dog not entitled to personal space? Why does she/he have to tolerate something that should be completely avoidable (an owner obeying rules/being mindful of other dogs & owners).


So let me see if I understand you. If we come towards each other on the sidewalk, and both our dogs are leashed, how far do you expect me to keep my dogs from yours as we pass? Is it literally within kicking distance, as you said in your other post? How many feet away from you should I call out my intention to pass in near proximity. Should it be different depending on the visability? ie day or night, foggy or sunshine?

And if I should come across you with my dog off leash and my dog walks gleefully towards you, how many seconds grace do I have before you're going to kick it? When you do kick it, will it be more of a nudge, a block, or will you be aiming to break its ribs.

I thought I was pretty good at these things .... My dog and I probably pass a dozen dogs in close proximity every day. In 13 years, I've only had a few minor altercations with dogs, and never had an altercation with an owner. I'd like to get my rules straight though, so I can respond in kind if the instance arises.


----------



## Konotashi

So, because it's a public place, we should allow people to play fetch with their dogs through our lanes?

We don't have someone's backyard that we can use. We can't afford to rent a private park. The closest thing to a private park we have is the one in the middle of the industrial complex that we compete with the SchH people for, but that's a different matter.

We use a very small section of this giant park. There's MORE than enough space for other people to enjoy their time with their dogs off-leash to play fetch, frisbee, etc.


----------



## Shade

Konotashi said:


> So, because it's a public place, we should allow people to play fetch with their dogs through our lanes?
> 
> We don't have someone's backyard that we can use. We can't afford to rent a private park. The closest thing to a private park we have is the one in the middle of the industrial complex that we compete with the SchH people for, but that's a different matter.
> 
> We use a very small section of this giant park. There's MORE than enough space for other people to enjoy their time with their dogs off-leash to play fetch, frisbee, etc.


My point was you can't expect everyone and their dogs to avoid you 100%. Can you ASK them to give you space? Yes. But do they HAVE to? No

You're in a rotten situation but you just have to make the best with what you have. That means putting up with other people and their dogs as well


----------



## selzer

This is an Arizona law that specifies something to do with kennel clubs:

SECTION 7. DOGS NOT PERMITTED AT LARGE, WEARING LICENSES
a. *Within the unincorporated areas of Maricopa County, no dog shall be
permitted at large. Each dog shall be confined within an enclosure on the
owner's property, or secured so that the dog is confined entirely to the
owner's property, or on a leash not to exceed six feet in length and directly
under the owner's control when not on the owner's property.*
b. Any dog over the age of four months on or off the premises of owner and
not under control of the owner or other persons acting for the owner, or
any dog not in a suitable enclosure which actually confines the dog, shall
wear a collar or harness to which is attached a valid license tag. Dogs
used for control of livestock or while being used or trained for hunting *or
dogs while being exhibited or trained at a kennel club event or dogs while
engaged in races approved by the Arizona Racing Commission, and such
dogs while being transported to and from such events, need not wear a

collar or harness with a valid license attached provided that they are
properly vaccinated, licensed and controlled.*

c. *If any dog is at large on the public streets, public parks or public property,
then said dog's owner or custodian is in violation of this ordinance.*
d. Any person whose dog is at large is in violation of this ordinance. A dog is
not at large,
(1) (2) *If said dog is used for control of livestock or while being used or
trained for hunting or being exhibited or trained at a kennel club
event or while engaged in races approved by the Arizona Racing
Commission.*

(3) *While said dog is actively engaged in dog obedience training,
accompanied by and under the control of his owner or trainer,
provided that the person training said dog has in his possession a
dog leash of not more than six feet in length and of sufficient
strength to control said dog, and, further, that said dog is actually
enrolled in or has graduated from a dog obedience training school.*

(4) 
e.
If said dog is restrained by a leash, chain, rope, or cord of not more
than six (6) feet in length and of sufficient strength to control action
of said dog.
If said dog whether on or off the premises of the owner, or person
acting for the owner, is controlled as provided in regulation 7(D)(l)
of this ordinance, or is within a suitable enclosure which actually
confines the dog.
Any dog at large shall be apprehended and impounded by a County
Enforcement Agent.
(1) Said agent shall have the right to enter upon private property when
it be necessary to do so in order to apprehend any dog that has
been running at large. Such entrance upon private property shall
be in reasonable pursuit of such dog and shall not include entry into
a domicile or enclosure which confines a dog unless it be at the
invitation of the occupant.
(2) Said agent may issue a citation(s) to the dog owner or person
acting for the owner when the dog is at large. The procedure of the
issuance of notice to appear shall be as provided for peace officers
in ARS, Section 13-3903, except the county enforcement agent
shall not make an arrest before issuing the notice. The issuance of


citation(s) pursuant to this ordinance shall be subject to provisions
of ARS, Section 13-3899.
(3)
SECTION 8.
In the judgment of the County Enforcement Agent, if any dog at
large or other animal that is dangerous or fierce and a threat to
human safety cannot be safely impounded, it may be slain.


**********************************************************************************************************

My take on this, is that your fly-ball practice is not a Kennel Club event. A kennel club event would be a sanctioned match or show, where the kennel club actually rents a facility or park and sets up a show. Not a bunch of people practicing flyball in a park.


----------



## selzer

Konotashi said:


> So, because it's a public place, we should allow people to play fetch with their dogs through our lanes?
> 
> We don't have someone's backyard that we can use. We can't afford to rent a private park. The closest thing to a private park we have is the one in the middle of the industrial complex that we compete with the SchH people for, but that's a different matter.
> 
> We use a very small section of this giant park. There's MORE than enough space for other people to enjoy their time with their dogs off-leash to play fetch, frisbee, etc.


If you want to make up rules, than you have to have some right to do so. Let's say I want to tudor someone in the Library. I can come and plunk my butt in the conference room and start tudoring. But someone else can also come and plunk their butt there and have a conversation, and be totally annoying. If I want no one else to be able to use that conference room when I am there, I have to reserve it. 

Kennel Clubs will reserve a park to have a show there. They pay money to set up and run a show. That is not the same as "We got here first so we are using this turf, beat it!"


----------



## Konotashi

We do. We watch for loose dogs and if we see a dog that may potentially cause a problem, we call out, "Loose dog," to let the rest of the team know. Not in disrespect to the owner of the other dog off-lead, but for the safety of our dogs and to stop practice until the dog is restrained, passes, or is deemed to not cause a problem.

We never ask them to leash their dog(s), because obviously, our dogs are all running off-lead.
We do occasionally ask if they can control their dog, depending on how big of a disruption the dog is causing. (Usually only when the dog is running up to us, our dogs, the crates, peeing on equipment...) This is very rare, though, and is always done in a respectful manner.

I'm sure most of you SchH people have private parks/property you train on, but how much would you appreciate it if someone's dog came running through your guys' setup, through the equipment, running in your dogs' crates, etc. whether it was in a public place or not?

And flyball doesn't take up much space. The lanes are 51 feet long, from the start line to the box, with maybe an extra 50 feet behind that for dogs to line up/run back. The lanes are no farther than 10 feet apart. (Though I'm sure they're a lot closer). We crate our dogs pretty close to one another. So in all actuality, we're not taking up that much space.
Heck, at the park by my house, Ozzy uses more space by himself when we're playing fetch!


----------



## selzer

When I am at a show, I will park my crate, but I always close it when I take my dog out. No I don't want some other dog to go into my crate and pee in it. It's just not something I want to deal with, so I close the crate. Dogs are dogs. If I can't eat it, chew on it, or play with it, the pee on it and walk away. 

I always have my chair there in front of my crate, equipment and cart. Everyone respects it, because we are at a show where there are dog-people, not your average pet owners out playing in a public park. Kind of like the difference between having your family at a Sunday School picnic and going to the beach with your picnic basket. You pretty much trust the people that you go to church with all the time, kind of like a family. But on the beach, you probably have to padlock your crap down, and then half of it is still stolen. 

It really sounds like you could find a better place to go. Do you have a fair-grounds in your area. They are rarely used outside of the fair itself, it's county property, so you could probably schedule some dog-classes there, and then you could keep your equipment free of marauding pets.


----------



## codmaster

If kicking an oncoming dog is supposed to protect BOTH dogs (as some have suggested here)?

Then why not just kick your own dog (I am assuming that the kickers dog is also DA or acting that way) and protect them both like that. 

If kicking one of the two aggressive dogs will actually protect both of them, by kicking your own dog the other owner cannot possibly get upset at you!

Unless I have missed something about the expressed belief that kicking the other dog is done to protect both dogs from the dog bites that might result from a dog fight, this would seem to be a possible solution.


----------



## selzer

In all honesty, I think we are deliberately trying to be obtuse here. If the dog is not under control, and it is coming after your dog, and your dog might eat it, kicking your own dog will only escalate the situation. It will not prevent the loose dog from getting at your dog. 

I think it can prevent an injury, but it would definitely be a last resort.


----------



## codmaster

selzer said:


> In all honesty, I think we are deliberately trying to be obtuse here. If the dog is not under control, and it is coming after your dog, and your dog might eat it, *kicking your own dog will only escalate the situation.* It will not prevent the loose dog from getting at your dog.
> 
> *Most likely also true - but how will kicking the other dog prevent your dog from getting at that dog? Wouldn't it be the same? Unless you have your dog under rock solid control to where a voice command will stop them from fighting. Not mine! I admit I do not have that control (yet).*
> 
> I think it can prevent an injury *(to who? - not the dog that you may have just cracked a few ribs?)*, but it would definitely be a last resort.


 
I agree that it sounds kind of silly - but so did the reasoning that kicking the other dog was done to protect *both *dogs (to me any way!) from getting bitten in a dog fight.


----------



## selzer

I think in the example for which this thread was written, the owner who was doing the kicking had her dog on a leash. The idea is that if you can hold your dog back and keep the other dog from getting near enough for an all out fight, then it could be better off. 

I have seen injuries inflicted by GSDs. Been the recipient of injuries inflicted by GSDs. I would rather be kicked, really. Besides the fact that you really do not WANT your dog to have that fight experience, the damage a GSD can do, can actually kill another dog. 

Getting dogs apart could mean injuries to humans as well. No one wants a bite history. It shouldn't count if someone gets in the way of a dog-dog fight, but that really depends. The best thing to do is prevent the fight at all costs. So kicking away the loose dog is probably the best thing to do, if the owner can't be bothered.

ETA: I think that after deciding to hold fly ball practice in a public park with a DA dog, the people involved on the fly ball team, probably did the best thing they could. But I think these situations are best avoided in the first place and if you have a dog likely to react to other dogs, then don't practice in a public park where people generally have their animals off-lead. 

I think most situations have two sides to them, neither side being totally right or totally wrong. I think both sides of most situations could have done something that would have prevented the scenario altogether. Just because he is more wrong than I am doesn't mean that I am all right. There is a reason why some of us have situations like these and other are able to avoid them. I think some of us do not go out looking for them. Or, we make a conscious effort to make choices that will keep our animals safe.


----------



## codmaster

selzer said:


> I think in the example for which this thread was written, the owner who was doing the kicking had her dog on a leash. The idea is that if *you can hold your dog back and keep the other dog from getting near enough for an all out fight, then it could be better off. *
> 
> .....................................


 
Not that it would be good to see a fight, but I would love to see how a normal person, man or woman, could kick at another large aggressive dog who is intent on attacking your dog (as so many folks seem to assume any dog coming over to them is intent to do) and at the same time hold on to their own leashed dog whi is intent on fighting the other dog!

*I think that would be an amazing physical feat!*

Personall, I would have an almost impossible task of just controlling my own dog (without trying to kick a vey agile hostile dog) when he is in a serious defense mood!


----------



## selzer

I have multiple bitches. Some are the same age, and some are years apart. Some I let out together, some I keep separate. But I have to be able to prevent fights, and if they do get in a fight, I have to be able to separate them myself. Because there is no one else. And I don't want them to kill the other. 

So, I can prevent a fight if I must. I am not really afraid of other dogs. And so far, I have been able to control mine. though most of mine realize that I will not let other dogs eat them. They trust me.


----------



## huntergreen

selzer is spot on, a public park is not the place to hold these practices. the way op comes across in her post, imo, she feels everyone else should clear out. wouldn't fly in my local parks.


----------



## Konotashi

huntergreen said:


> selzer is spot on, a public park is not the place to hold these practices. the way op comes across in her post, imo, she feels everyone else should clear out. wouldn't fly in my local parks.


Never said or implied that.

The park is Pioneer Park on Mesa Dr. and the US-60 in Mesa, AZ.
Look how big it is on the map.
We hardly take up a tiny corner.
We don't disturb other park-goers, and most other park-goers don't disturb us.


----------



## codmaster

selzer said:


> I have multiple bitches. Some are the same age, and some are years apart. Some I let out together, some I keep separate. But I have to be able to prevent fights, and if they do get in a fight, I have to be able to separate them myself. Because there is no one else. And I don't want them to kill the other.
> 
> So, I can prevent a fight if I must. I am not really afraid of other dogs. And so far, I have been able to control mine. though *most* of mine realize that *I will not let other dogs eat them*. They trust me.


Sounds great for you and your own dogs. 

Suspect it might be just a tad different with dogs that don't know you and are not conditioned to obey you and might not think that biting you is really such a bad thing (like biting the Alpha/leader and someone they are used to obeying.

As for a dog not acting because they think their "Mom" (or "Dad") will protect them - all I have to say about that is that some GSD's will not simply hang back and let their owner protect them!

But to each, their own.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

martemchik said:


> And therein lies the problem...
> 
> I assumed the owner had freaked out because her dog was freaking out.


That seems to be a common problem here, we all "assume". 

I read into this too inthat the OP friend's dog started to lunge and the OP corrected that and said no it did not. Perhaps the OP freinds dog owner did over react. But that to is really not relevant. 

I let you legalists have this. I have conferences all day and annot come on at break. Have a great day. 

FWIW Konotashi, I agree with you on this.


----------



## huntergreen

konotashi, the tone and vocabulary you have used in your post, comes through loud and clear, starting with the tittle. you feel your space was violated. there is no reasonable expectation of privacy i a public park, even if it was the size of texas. as for common courtesy, you weren't yet actually doing your trials, just setting up. i guess your club had not yet erected your temporary portable fencing which i am sure you must have when practicing to avoid these situations. as for the "ignorant person", that tittle falls squarely on the the person who brought an aggressive dog to a public park with loosely enforced leash laws. that dog should have remained crated until it was her time to make a run and then put back into the crate. i personally am shocked that a dog club would react this way towards friendly dogs. as for kicking at a friendly dog or dogs for acting like dogs, i will state again, "op you are just dead wrong". i also wonder why the person with friendly dogs wasn't invited to join the club. to me that says something about your club. 

to all others who read this, if this comes across as harsh, well, it was meant to. i can't find a reason to kick at a friendly dog for any reason.


----------



## martemchik

codmaster said:


> Not that it would be good to see a fight, but I would love to see how a normal person, man or woman, could kick at another large aggressive dog who is intent on attacking your dog (as so many folks seem to assume any dog coming over to them is intent to do) and at the same time hold on to their own leashed dog whi is intent on fighting the other dog!
> 
> *I think that would be an amazing physical feat!*
> 
> Personall, I would have an almost impossible task of just controlling my own dog (without trying to kick a vey agile hostile dog) when he is in a serious defense mood!


Yeah...I'm with you here. I know for a fact there is no way I'm keeping MY dog away from an aggressive charging dog...much less trying to get that thing away from my dog. When dogs are out for a fight...a kick won't do much to stop them. A truly DA dog, gets blinders on and just wants to do one thing...kill the other dog.

If a kick stops a dog from "attacking" it probably wasn't attacking in the first place.


----------



## Caledon

I find that many people are not respectful of what we perceive as our "personal space". Unfortunately it was a public park.

I've had similiar experiences in a park while training my dog on a 20' long line. While having her in a down stay I've had people walk between me an my dog. Could they not see the bright orange long line? Did they not see that we were doing exercises. Of course I saw them coming and knew what they were going to do and used it as a training opportunity. But really, I was not blocking a pathway and there was other routes to take to avoid us. We were in a huge open area. But then again, it was a public park. I'm the type of person that would not walk in between a game of catch, soccer, someone taking a photo, or dog training. Unfortunately many others are not and I cannot force my expecations on anyone and have to be aware of my surroundings and try to second guess people. I think your group should have done the same and been more pro-active to the possibility of these off leash dogs approaching "your" area, especailly with that one dog. The whole group knew the dog reaction would not be good, and they were there first.


----------



## martemchik

Kayos and Havoc said:


> That seems to be a common problem here, we all "assume".
> 
> I read into this too inthat the OP friend's dog started to lunge and the OP corrected that and said no it did not. Perhaps the OP freinds dog owner did over react. But that to is really not relevant.
> 
> I let you legalists have this. I have conferences all day and annot come on at break. Have a great day.
> 
> FWIW Konotashi, I agree with you on this.


Yeah the law doesn't matter much here, was the person with the "unruly" dog irresponsible? Maybe. Where they a bit rude? Probably. Would I ever let my dog run through an area at a public park that is clearly being used for something? No. But there are tons of people who just don't care. Maybe that person thought you guys were just playing a game of some sort and their dog could possibly join in...who knows?

I'm just a little surprised at the friend with the DA dog...I'm sorry we have more than a few males at my GSD club that don't get along well with other boys. But they're all kept separated, and slowly worked together until they can get along. I understand we mainly do obedience and sometimes agility with those dogs, and those are 1 dog events that are very structured (I don't see fly-ball as very structured, which is part of the fun of it). 

I was on a team-obedience team (redundant, I know) with one of those males. My boy and him had to long down/sit next to each other, drop on recall next to each other, follow and sniff each other's butts in practice on a consistent basis. At the end of the day...both dogs were under control and I never for a second felt uneasy about the other dog being next to mine.

We practiced at parks...the other two females on our team were both Schutzhund 3 titled dogs and had plenty of edge to them as well. When we had people wander close to our "area" (which was much bigger than what konotashi described is needed for fly-ball) we just explained to them what we were doing. Luckily...people are hardcore about leash laws in our area, and we generally practiced at parks too close to streets to allow an off-leash dog with no recall to run in.

I guess the point of my story is that if anything had happened and that other male had reacted to a strange dog...we would've been just as irresponsible for having a dog like that in a public area (although that dog is working towards his UD title and sounds to be a bit more controllable than Sasha). Luckily...most people are quite hesitant to approach a group of 5-6 German Shepherds and their owners even when the owners are showing fantastic control/obedience of the dogs.

I think at the end of the day the person wasn't as irresponsible as they were disrespectful. People just need to have some more respect of other people's wishes/areas/past times when it comes to public parks. There is usually plenty of space for all of us to enjoy and share without the need for confrontation.


----------



## huntergreen

Caledon said:


> I find that many people are not respectful of what we perceive as our "personal space". Unfortunately it was a public park.
> 
> I've had similiar experiences in a park while training my dog on a 20' long line. While having her in a down stay I've had people walk between me an my dog. Could they not see the bright orange long line? Did they not see that we were doing exercises. Of course I saw them coming and knew what they were going to do and used it as a training opportunity. But really, I was not blocking a pathway and there was other routes to take to avoid us. We were in a huge open area. But then again, it was a public park. I'm the type of person that would not walk in between a game of catch, soccer, someone taking a photo, or dog training. Unfortunately many others are not and I cannot force my expecations on anyone and have to be aware of my surroundings and try to second guess people. I think your group should have done the same and been more pro-active to the possibility of these off leash dogs approaching "your" area, especailly with that one dog. The whole group knew the dog reaction would not be good, and they were there first.


i think you are confusing human courtesy with dogs being dogs.


----------



## martemchik

huntergreen said:


> i think you are confusing human courtesy with dogs being dogs.


And to add to that...Personal space is a very AMERICAN concept. Anyone that has ever studied other cultures, or been in most other countries, will notice that people are much closer. There isn't this "arms-length" bubble created that no one is allowed to enter. It's why we shake hands with everyone we meet where other countries hug or kiss on the cheek.


----------



## Blanketback

Caledon said:


> I'm the type of person that would not walk in between a game of catch, soccer, someone taking a photo, or dog training.


I don't know why, but this comment is making me giggle. Too true about some people being lost in their own little world, completely oblivious to what's going on around them. Are they just rude? I'm forever embarrassing my DH or SIL when we're out together and someone walks into me. I know, I should shrug it off, but I'm immature I guess. I ask the person if they always just walk right into people. Or ask them if they'd like to step on my other foot next. I'm not very shy, lol. But c'mon, show some courtesy!


----------



## huntergreen

again, confusing doggie behavior with doggie behavior.


----------



## codmaster

martemchik said:


> And to add to that...Personal space is a *very AMERICAN concept*. Anyone that has ever studied other cultures, or been in most other countries, will notice that people are much closer. There isn't this "arms-length" bubble created that no one is allowed to enter. It's why we shake hands with everyone we meet where other countries hug or kiss on the cheek.


 
NOPE! A couple of my German friends are even more so!


----------



## codmaster

Konotashi said:


> Never said or implied that.
> 
> The park is Pioneer Park on Mesa Dr. and the US-60 in Mesa, AZ.
> Look how big it is on the map.
> We hardly take up a tiny corner.
> We don't disturb other park-goers, and *most* other park-goers don't disturb us.


 
Don't you think that the owner of the other dog was disturbed in the least by Sasha attacking her/him?

Or maybe having some "person" kicking their dog?

I think I might be a littel disturbed by that, just personally.


----------



## codmaster

huntergreen said:


> konotashi, the tone and vocabulary you have used in your post, comes through loud and clear, starting with the tittle. you feel your space was violated. there is no reasonable expectation of privacy i a public park, even if it was the size of texas. as for common courtesy, you weren't yet actually doing your trials, just setting up. i guess your club had not yet erected your temporary portable fencing which i am sure you must have when practicing to avoid these situations. as for the "ignorant person", that tittle falls squarely on the the person who brought an aggressive dog to a public park with loosely enforced leash laws. that dog should have remained crated until it was her time to make a run and then put back into the crate. i personally am shocked that a dog club would react this way towards friendly dogs. as for kicking at a friendly dog or dogs for acting like dogs, i will state again, "op you are just dead wrong". i also wonder why the person with friendly dogs wasn't invited to join the club. to me that says something about your club.
> 
> to all others who read this, if this comes across as harsh, well, it was meant to. *i can't find a reason to kick at a friendly dog for any reason.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> *Very well said!*


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

codmaster said:


> Don't you think that the owner of the other dog was disturbed in the least by Sasha attacking her/him?
> 
> Or maybe having some "person" kicking their dog?
> 
> I think I might be a littel disturbed by that, just personally.


Sasha did not attack anyone or any dog - unless I misread this.


----------



## ShatteringGlass

bga said:


> So let me see if I understand you. If we come towards each other on the sidewalk, and both our dogs are leashed, how far do you expect me to keep my dogs from yours as we pass? Is it literally within kicking distance, as you said in your other post? How many feet away from you should I call out my intention to pass in near proximity. Should it be different depending on the visability? ie day or night, foggy or sunshine?
> 
> And if I should come across you with my dog off leash and my dog walks gleefully towards you, how many seconds grace do I have before you're going to kick it? When you do kick it, will it be more of a nudge, a block, or will you be aiming to break its ribs.
> 
> I thought I was pretty good at these things .... My dog and I probably pass a dozen dogs in close proximity every day. In 13 years, I've only had a few minor altercations with dogs, and never had an altercation with an owner. I'd like to get my rules straight though, so I can respond in kind if the instance arises.


Maybe if you stopped to read and think. I'm talking about a loose dog running up to a leashed dog. Im not talking about walking 2 leashed dogs on a sidewalk, not the same thing, and when it's that situation, i step out of the way and give distance because I don't know your dog and you don't know mine and there's no need for them to get nose to nose

If your dog is running around loose where the rule is that dogs need to be leashed, and you let your dog run up to me and mine without asking if it's ok, or recalling your dog, then yeah you're RUDE. Again, WHY AREN'T MY DOG AND I ALLOWED PERSONAL SPACE? Why is it ok and acceptable that your dog run up into my dog's face and my dog be expected to enjoy that? Do you enjoy strangers running up in your face if you were out at the park trying to have a good time with a friend or family member?


----------



## codmaster

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Sasha did not attack anyone or any dog - unless I *misread this*.


*Try to read the OP post again - (see below as I have copied some of it)!*

Sounds to me like "someone" was pretty worried that SASHA was about to attack a friendly dog who happened to just be approaching (in a friendly manner) her - don't you think?

If you don't agree -maybe you could give us all your explanatoion of the OP words?

".........but Sasha (assumed to be a lab/doberman) is dog aggressive with strange dogs. *We all started screaming,* "GET THE DOG AWAY FROM SASHA!!!" *(WHY would they be so scared of Sasha's reaction? (attack is imminent?????)
*
"The pit's owner did NOTHING other than call the dog, obviously to no avail. Sasha's owner kicked at the pit (didn't make contact, but was trying to avoid a fight) and was screaming at it, and the owner just stood there and yelled, "Don't kick my dog!" "


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## Sitz&Platz

Makes me wonder if the Pit didn't respond to the recall, because somebody was trying to kick him? In defense of the irresponsible Pit owner, maybe he/she thought that Sasha was a friendly dog, because she was around a group of people with other dogs? I wouldn't necessarily expect a DA dog in a flyball practice group. 

Personally, I don't like any unleashed strange dogs around me and in my space at any time. But if I let my dogs run unleashed for whatever purpose, then I don't think that I'm in any position to criticize other dog owners for the same thing. 

I wonder if the Pitbull in this story had been a Poodle, would Sasha's owner still have kicked the dog? I'm not trying to fuel the fire in this discussion, I was just wondering if the owner was more concerned about a fight happening, because a Pitbull was involved?


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## codmaster

Sitz&Platz said:


> Makes me wonder if the Pit didn't respond to the recall, because somebody was trying to kick him? In defense of the irresponsible Pit owner, maybe he/she thought that Sasha was a friendly dog, because she was around a group of people with other dogs? I wouldn't necessarily expect a DA dog in a flyball practice group.
> 
> Personally, I don't like any unleashed strange dogs around me and in my space at any time. But if I let my dogs run unleashed for whatever purpose, then I don't think that I'm in any position to criticize other dog owners for the same thing.
> 
> I wonder if the Pitbull in this story had been a Poodle, would Sasha's owner still have kicked the dog? I'm not trying to fuel the fire in this discussion, *I was just wondering if the owner was more concerned about a fight happening, because a Pitbull was involved?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> That would be my guess!


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## martemchik

I don't think the breed matters. I think most of us have never dealt with a DA dog so we don't understand the mentality. And looking at it from an outsider's point of view, it does look dumb that you're "protecting both dogs by kicking the friendly one." I understand the thought process behind it, but it does sound really stupid.

It's kind of like...I don't want to correct my dog physically/violently for reacting to the "threat" so I'm just going to kick this other dog that I don't care about (since its not mine). Just looks/sounds wrong.

I kind of wanted to stay away from the "legal" but its true...hitting someone else's dog is never a good idea. Truth is...its not YOUR choice to file assault charges. It's the district attorneys, and although you can pressure them to do so...a judge with any ounce of humanity will understand a human being protecting THEIR dog from another HUMAN being that is hitting it. Especially if that human's explanation is, "Well my dog is aggressive, so to keep the other dog away from it I decided to beat it, and that's when the owner of that dog slugged me."

This is all so hypothetical though that its almost not worth discussing. My point of view has always been to never make contact with anyone else's dog unless they are clearly (with witnesses in agreement) out to hurt you/your dog/others. If there is any question on the dog's intentions, or the way its doing whatever its doing, you're asking for trouble by striking it. Most dog owners look at their dogs like children, and will protect their dogs as if they were their kids, and I can almost guarantee that most judges/law enforcement will look at it the same way. If you want to go deeper into the legalities...people are allowed to protect their PROPERTY (which dogs are) with force if necessary. So in all technicality any physical reaction by an owner might not even be considered assault.


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## Konotashi

Codmaster, read some of my other posts. I'm not going to continue to keep explaining the same things over and over again.
I've cleared up the points you're trying to make.

And honestly, if it was ME walking GRACIE down and the pit ran up, yes. I would have kicked the other dog for the safety of BOTH dogs. I've seen Gracie in a fight. Though I don't believe she'd straight out attack the other dog, why risk it? She hasn't been around other dogs enough for me to know. At home, she and our lab are the only ones with problems.
But WHY risk a fight if I can kick at the friendly dog and make it run the other direction? If that's all it would take to avoid a blood bath, and possibly a dead dog on either side, then so be it.

ETA: You guys would probably be AMAZED how many DA dogs there are in flyball. There's actually a border collie that KILLED a JRT at home (one he lived with), and then attacked someone else's jack at a tournament.
And this dog is still racing!!! Honestly, I cannot STAND that dog's owner. She has a Mali that (in my opinion) isn't right in the head. I know Mali's are crazy, but this dog is psycho. Literally.


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## Ziltoid

I'm a little confused as to why a known DA dog was about to be let off lead in a park known to be used by other off lead dogs, or even why it was there in the first place.

My sisters male can be DA sometimes... so he doesn't go to parks etc. where there is a good chance of other dogs running up to him. Leash laws don't really matter - if you know people don't obey them, don't put your dog in that situation.


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## Sitz&Platz

Konotashi, if your dog got loose and approached another dog *without any signs of aggression*, would you be comfortable with a DA owner trying to kick your dog to prevent a fight?


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## Konotashi

Sitz&Platz said:


> Konotashi, if your dog got loose and approached another dog *without any signs of aggression*, would you be comfortable with a DA owner trying to kick your dog to prevent a fight?


Yes! Absolutely!
If my 13 lb. Pomeranian runs up to a DA GSD (or most any breed larger than him!) by ALL MEANS! f he decides to ignore my recall, kick him to prevent your dog from killing him!
I don't think a kick with enough force to break his ribs would be necessary, but honestly, I'd rather take him to the vet for a broken rib rather than take him to the crematorium.


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## Sitz&Platz

I think, that's the big difference and the point I was trying to make. I'm very uncomfortable with the kicking part. Both dogs should have been leashed at all times. I don't want anybody to kick my dog, unless my dog poses a threat. 

But, if a dog is DA to the point where you panic whenever a dog runs up to you, then a public park, where you could encounter off leash dogs is not the right place for that dog. If this had taken place on a street while Sasha's owner was walking the dog, I would have fully agreed with kicking and screaming.


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## Konotashi

I'll suggest to the team that we invest in some orange construction fencing.
I think that way, we're still abiding by leash laws (with the dogs being contained) and to avoid incidents like this from happening in the future.

I think a previous poster nailed it on the head. It was disrespectful, more than anything. (With her walking straight through our setup).

Honestly, I don't think the woman was even CARRYING a leash on her, which is a trict violation of the leash laws.


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## bga

ShatteringGlass said:


> Maybe if you stopped to read and think. I'm talking about a loose dog running up to a leashed dog. Im not talking about walking 2 leashed dogs on a sidewalk, not the same thing, and when it's that situation, i step out of the way and give distance because I don't know your dog and you don't know mine and there's no need for them to get nose to nose
> 
> If your dog is running around loose where the rule is that dogs need to be leashed, and you let your dog run up to me and mine without asking if it's ok, or recalling your dog, then yeah you're RUDE. Again, WHY AREN'T MY DOG AND I ALLOWED PERSONAL SPACE? Why is it ok and acceptable that your dog run up into my dog's face and my dog be expected to enjoy that? Do you enjoy strangers running up in your face if you were out at the park trying to have a good time with a friend or family member?


Right ... let's get personal then. I do actually "stop to read and think" about your posts very carefully. One thing I've noted is that you seem to make some pretty massive assumptions yourself. 

I have no idea where you're coming up with this stuff, but I NEVER said it was acceptable for an unleashed dog to invade your personal space. I NEVER said you need to enjoy it. I NEVER said it wasn't rude. I never said I wouldn't be in the wrong if my dog was off-leash and I couldn't recall it from your dog. My point is that it does happen from time to time, and kicking that friendly dog is an overreaction far beyond rude, especially when it is YOUR dog that is the root of the problem. Let's turn the question around. What makes you think you have the right to physically assualt someone's dog when that dog has indicated no aggression towards you or your dog? If you're honestly trying to prevent a fight, the most practical, and likely successful response, would be to kick the aggressive dog, as someone here already suggested.

Rudeness aside, kicking a dog is actually criminal in most areas, with far stiffer fines than anything you would get for having an unleashed dog. Lastly, it's going to get you into a world of trouble if you do it to the wrong person. 

And speaking of reading carefully, I mentioned in an earlier post that it is not valid to judge an interaction between dogs based on what would be acceptable between humans. There are plently of of ways that dogs relate to dogs and humans relate to humans that are not interchangeable. ie. butt sniffing for dogs, having a romantic dinner for humans. Your comparison isn't valid.

Bottom Line: If your dog is likely to take a piece out of someone or something, give it the training and socialization it needs to overcome this. Until that happens, either don't go to public places or muzzle the dog when you do. The owners of balanced dogs, some who don't have perfect recall, should not be blamed for your problem...


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## Sitz&Platz

Konotashi, I think fencing would be a great idea. I like the fact that you listened to everybody's input, and while you might not agree with everything that's been said, you decided to do something to prevent this from happening again. Your dog didn't even cause the ruckus, but you are providing a solution to the problem.


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## Konotashi

bga said:


> My point is that it does happen from time to time, and kicking that friendly dog is an overreaction far beyond rude, especially when it is YOUR dog that is the root of the problem.


In that situation, why would it be her fault? (Hypothetically speaking, of course).

She's walking her dog. Dog aggressive or not, she should have the right to walk her dog peacefully down the street without being molested by off-leash dogs, friendly or not. 

I don't think it should be her responsibility to protect other people's dogs who don't listen. If I had a large breed dog that was DA, would I walk it with a muzzle on? Probably, just for my own peace of mind. Should it be my responsibility? Absolutely not!


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## Lauri & The Gang

Sitz&Platz said:


> Konotashi, if your dog got loose and approached another dog *without any signs of aggression*, would you be comfortable with a DA owner trying to kick your dog to prevent a fight?


I'm not Konotashi but as the owner of a DA dog I can wholeheartedly say *YES!!!*

I would rather have you kick my Chinese Crested out of the way of your DA dog than has us both trying to pry open your dogs mouth to retrieve my (now most likely dead) dog.

ETA - Especially if you were yelling at me to get my dog away from yours and I was doing nothing.

In fact, after we both got our dogs under control please come and kick *ME *for being a stupid dog owner and not having control of my dog.


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## selzer

Konotashi said:


> I'll suggest to the team that we invest in some orange construction fencing.
> I think that way, we're still abiding by leash laws (with the dogs being contained) and to avoid incidents like this from happening in the future.
> 
> I think a previous poster nailed it on the head. It was disrespectful, more than anything. (With her walking straight through our setup).
> 
> Honestly, I don't think the woman was even CARRYING a leash on her, which is a trict violation of the leash laws.


I think the fencing will prevent people from walking through and letting their dogs pee on your stuff. It won't prevent another owner from letting their dog run up to the not-so-friendly-to-strange-dogs dog though. At least not when going or coming. 

If the person is working on this issue, if I was that person, I would not bring my dog back to this location for fly ball, because I would be worried about set backs as well as liability. 

You probably would be better off using the field that you were using with the schutzhund dogs. They are at least dog-people, and not simply pet people, which means they are probably more likely to behave in good interests of all the dogs.

As for the strict violation, if you are violating the law, you are violating the law. Doesn't matter if you are violating it in a big way or violating it in a little way. I mean, If all our dogs are off leash, pointing the finger at one person and saying, yeah, we're wrong, but that lady is wrong-er than us. Just quit when you're ahead.


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## Sitz&Platz

"In fact, after we both got our dogs under control please come and kick ME for being a stupid dog owner and not having control of my dog." 

Good point! I absolutely agree.


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## Jax08

Here is my take on this...

I've worked very hard on Jax's reactivity with dogs. Hers is a fear issue. How am I supposed to know if the dog coming at me is friendly? I've seen dogs that seem happy and quickly turn. Am I supposed to take a chance on that? With the YEARS of work I've put into Jax just so she can be near a dog and not react? Nope, not happening. I will kick out at the dog if it gets close enough. Not to try to hurt it but to try to get it to go away. I'll block them. I'll throw something in hopes of turning their attention. I reached around once and brought a water bottle down across the nose of an off lead dog that was sticking her nose up Jax's butt as we were trying to walk by. But under no circumstances does an off lead dog get to charge up to my leashed dog. Especially if we are in an area where dogs are supposed to be on leash.


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## Konotashi

selzer said:


> You probably would be better off using the field that you were using with the schutzhund dogs. They are at least dog-people, and not simply pet people, which means they are probably more likely to behave in good interests of all the dogs.


Did you see my thread about the SchH snobs? Trust me, we try to use that field, but it's turned into a feud over the field.... :/ 
That field is only big enough to train for either SchH or flyball at one time.
The day of the Sasha/pit bull incident, one of the SchH people set up blinds and was waiting for the rest of the club so we had to go to the other park. (But that's a different matter).


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## bga

Konotashi said:


> In that situation, why would it be her fault? (Hypothetically speaking, of course).
> 
> She's walking her dog. Dog aggressive or not, she should have the right to walk her dog peacefully down the street without being molested by off-leash dogs, friendly or not.
> 
> I don't think it should be her responsibility to protect other people's dogs who don't listen. If I had a large breed dog that was DA, would I walk it with a muzzle on? Probably, just for my own peace of mind. Should it be my responsibility? Absolutely not!


Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. It is absolutely your responsibilty as a responsible dog owner to protect other dogs from a dog that is likely to bite. I'm not sure there's a municipality in the country where this is not the case. 

You seem to be implying that only the off-leash dog isn't listening. How well is the DA dog listening if the owner can't verbally prevent her dog from attacking? Which lack of command results in the greatest harm?


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## selzer

Konotashi said:


> Did you see my thread about the SchH snobs? Trust me, we try to use that field, but it's turned into a feud over the field.... :/
> That field is only big enough to train for either SchH or flyball at one time.
> The day of the Sasha/pit bull incident, one of the SchH people set up blinds and was waiting for the rest of the club so we had to go to the other park. (But that's a different matter).


Obviously not. 

Well, dog-people can be rather snobby at times. I have had my share of snubbing from Obedience people. Even when I have an entry in Obedience, I hang out with the Rally folks. I guess it is kind of like hanging outside the church with the smokers, because I just seem to relate to them better. And I don't smoke.


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## selzer

Jax08 said:


> Here is my take on this...
> 
> I've worked very hard on Jax's reactivity with dogs. Hers is a fear issue. How am I supposed to know if the dog coming at me is friendly? I've seen dogs that seem happy and quickly turn. Am I supposed to take a chance on that? With the YEARS of work I've put into Jax just so she can be near a dog and not react? Nope, not happening. I will kick out at the dog if it gets close enough. Not to try to hurt it but to try to get it to go away. I'll block them. I'll throw something in hopes of turning their attention. I reached around once and brought a water bottle down across the nose of an off lead dog that was sticking her nose up Jax's butt as we were trying to walk by. But under no circumstances does an off lead dog get to charge up to my leashed dog. Especially if we are in an area where dogs are supposed to be on leash.


Supposed to, they are supposed to be on leash all over Ohio, Or under reasonable control, or something or other. But if I put all that work into a dog that had a problem like that, I wouldn't go out looking for loose dogs, in places where loose dogs are likely to be, whether they are supposed to be on leash or not. We have enough loose dog encounters just walking them up town. I wouldn't be heading off to a park where people generally have them unleashed.


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## bga

Konotashi said:


> Did you see my thread about the SchH snobs? .....


 
Konotashi, a few months from now, perhaps longer, go back and read your initial post and take a truely honest look at it. Then ask yourself how it comes across, particularly the derogatory comments regarding the off leash dog owner, and the overall tone. Another poster has mentioned that tone as being loud and clear, yet now you're saying the SchH people are snobs? Your OP was tremendously snobbish / elitist, etc, etc.... I expect the off-leash dog owner might regard your club much the same as you regard the SchH people.That may not have been your intention, but it is certainly how it reads.

This thread is getting pointless. There are obviously polar opposite viewpoints represented in this thread and not much middle ground between them. All I can say is that I have always done my best to be a responsible dog owner, and to respect other's right to do the same. I do see a vast difference between the offences described though.

Before we lost her last month, my dog was always under control, with a few rare exceptions when she got pretty excited and she would not return to me immediately. (perhaps 5 times in 13 years) She was a little high strung as a puppy, mostly due to being taken from her mother at a very early age, but we patiently worked through it, and she turned out to be an absolute gem around adults, strangers, infants, family, and yes, other dogs. Had someone kicked my dog on one of those rare occasions, a dog who was stable, gentle, and friendly for 13 years, my reaction would have been swift and sure. I would not stand for it then, nor will I stand for it in the future.


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## Konotashi

bga said:


> Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. It is absolutely your responsibilty as a responsible dog owner to protect other dogs from a dog that is likely to bite. I'm not sure there's a municipality in the country where this is not the case.
> 
> You seem to be implying that only the off-leash dog isn't listening. How well is the DA dog listening if the owner can't verbally prevent her dog from attacking? Which lack of command results in the greatest harm?


A dog needs to be under its owner's control. A leash is usually the best way to control a dog - hence, leash laws. I don't know too much about how they were all implemented, but my guess is that after a while, people got lenient in having verbal control over their dogs.

I personally don't mind if people have their dogs off-lead if they can be respectful and maintain control of their dogs. That's my personal opinion on the matter. I know not everyone agrees, but we can all agree to disagree.
BUT if you CAN'T maintain verbal control of your dog and keep it away from another dog that's off-lead, then don't let your dog off-lead until you can maintain control over your dog. I don't care how friendly your dog is. Not everyone likes dogs. Some people are afraid of dogs. Some dogs are terrified of other dogs. *It's not ONLY DA dogs that even the friendliest and most well mannered dogs are not welcome to approach!* It is not fair for the people or other owners in this situation to have to wait for you to have to come over and physically restrain your dog.

As YOUR dog's owner, it is YOUR job to protect YOUR dog. If my dog is DA, I shouldn't have to worry about having to be the one to keep YOUR dog safe. That is YOUR responsibility. Just as it's MY responsibility to protect MY dog.


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## selzer

Your dog can be deemed a dangerous dog even if it fights with another dog. If the dog is deemed a dangerous dog, at least in Ohio, you have to use a muzzle in public, and carry some God-awful expensive dangerous dog insurance, and other restrictions. Usually a second offense is a death sentence. 

Sometimes it is nigh on impossible to get home-owner's insurance or rent a place when you have a dog labeled dangerous.

If a dog has a dangerous dog-designator, then when some lady in front of your home totally over-reacts and possibly injures herself because of your dog, your not going to get the benefit of the doubt. 

SOMETIMES PROTECTING OUR DOGS _MEANS_ PROTECTING OTHER DOGS.


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## Konotashi

I do apologize for my heated tone.

But I don't expect people to look out for the safety of my dog and I shouldn't be expected to look out for the safety of theirs. MY dog's safety is MY responsibility.
Had Ozzy not recalled with the boxer incident a few weeks back because he was off-lead and got attacked, that would have been MY fault, not the DA boxer owner's fault for not walking her LEASHED dog without a muzzle on.


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## selzer

Konotashi said:


> I do apologize for my heated tone.
> 
> But I don't expect people to look out for the safety of my dog and I shouldn't be expected to look out for the safety of theirs. MY dog's safety is MY responsibility.
> Had Ozzy not recalled with the boxer incident a few weeks back because he was off-lead and got attacked, that would have been MY fault, not the DA boxer owner's fault for not walking her LEASHED dog without a muzzle on.


Ya know what? In another time or another place, you might get away with that philosophy. Maybe you'll be ok because you have a little dog. But most of the people on this site cannot afford to hope that our court system will do the right thing when it comes to their dogs. Yes, they should be ok if they are leashed. But I am not willing to take that chance. I will ensure that my dog gets a fair shake by the law by avoiding it altogether. If it is in my power, I will protect my dog by protecting other people's dogs. You can do what you want.


----------



## huntergreen

Jax08 said:


> Here is my take on this...
> 
> I've worked very hard on Jax's reactivity with dogs. Hers is a fear issue. How am I supposed to know if the dog coming at me is friendly? I've seen dogs that seem happy and quickly turn. Am I supposed to take a chance on that? With the YEARS of work I've put into Jax just so she can be near a dog and not react? Nope, not happening. I will kick out at the dog if it gets close enough. Not to try to hurt it but to try to get it to go away. I'll block them. I'll throw something in hopes of turning their attention. I reached around once and brought a water bottle down across the nose of an off lead dog that was sticking her nose up Jax's butt as we were trying to walk by. But under no circumstances does an off lead dog get to charge up to my leashed dog. Especially if we are in an area where dogs are supposed to be on leash.


i know you wouldn't go to a place with known "loose leash laws" where you know there will most likely be loose dogs. i can tell that from your posts and advice you have given.


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## Jax08

huntergreen said:


> i know you wouldn't go to a place with known "loose leash laws" where you know there will most likely be loose dogs. i can tell that from your posts and advice you have given.


No, that I would not do. I would never purposely put her in a position where she felt she had to react. However, I do live in a very rural area where dogs are loose all the time. It's not uncommon for dogs to come out of their yard, barking like lunatics while we walk past. I do know most of the dogs so "leave it" from me and Jax will watch them nervously but will not react. I can think of two, the one with the bottle and another one I swung a frisbee at, that were very intent on getting in Jax's "space" from behind. Slinking in from behind is rude in doggie language. Dogs meet from the side and then smell each other. Both these dogs came in from behind. I didn't do that to protect my dog. I did it to ward them off so they didn't get hurt. And Jax does have a "personal space" that she likes to maintain with strange dogs. That isn't just a human "American" thing and anyone that has a reactive dog can probably say the same thing. 

And, if I was in the position of Sasha's owner, I would leave my dog in the car until I was sure it was clear to bring her out. Reactive and aggressive dogs can be to not react. There are sport dogs out there that are truly dog aggressive and they still compete with dogs all around them. 

I still find that no excuse for the owner of the loose dogs to just carry on like and let her dogs run in and out of the crates and up to all the dogs. Control your dogs...if you can't recall them then they shouldn't be off lead where there are other dogs regardless of the rules. 

There is responsibility on both sides...the loose dog owner and Sasha's owner...to train and control their dogs.


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## Blanketback

Konotashi said:


> But I don't expect people to look out for the safety of my dog and I shouldn't be expected to look out for the safety of theirs.


We have Breed Specific Legislation is certain areas.
We have breed restrictions in certain situations.
We have weight restrictions as well: a bias against larger dogs.

And all of the above were put in place because of irresponsibility. And maybe a large portion of selfishness too. Selzer's post was excellent and I hope it sank in.


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## martemchik

There's a huge difference between a stray dog running up to you on a walk, and taking your dog to a place where dog's usually run around off-lead. If you chose to go somewhere with the knowledge that you would run into off-lead dogs, you have no right to be mad when one decides to pay you and your dog a visit.

And I'm sorry...but both people with little dogs that chimed in on the discussion...I'm calling BS...BS that you would be alright with someone PUNTING your dog away from their dog when your dog is perfectly friendly and theirs is aggressive. The first thing that would happen after the vet visit is a thread called "SOME IDIOT PUNTED MY DOG BECAUSE THEIR DOG WAS GOING TO KILL MY PRETTY LITTLE INNOCENT DOG!"

It would start a discussion on how hard is hard enough to kick a dog, and depending on the flight path and distance traveled everyone would chime in on the fact that it was definitely too hard to kick that innocent little yorkie. Unless of course the owner had a GSD, then anything that person/their dog does probably has good reason behind it. If that owner owned any other breed...they'd be crucified. There would be a mob starting to go beat up this owner, then throw him in jail for animal abuse, and how they're putting other dogs in danger by having such a dangerous dog out and about.

We can all sit here and imagine how we'd react...how calm and collective we'd be...how understanding of the situation we'd be. But at that moment, none of us would be calm, we'd be PISSED...pissed that someone decided the best way to control their dangerous dog was to PUNT our friendly, innocent, never do anything wrong, dog.


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## Konotashi

I kicked the bajeezus out of our own dogs.

Remember Aiden and Yoda, my mom's Frenchie brothers Both were fighting over dominance and they were INTENT on fighting one another?
They got in a fight.
I managed to separate them.
I was holding one of them off to the side with something.
His brother tried going back at him, full force.
I kicked him pretty hard in the side.
He slid off, but kept coming.
I kicked the crap out of him again.
And one more time, until I punted him far enough to rip the other one off the ground to keep them apart.

And I know that was my own dog.

But I don't care if a stranger had to pepper spray Ozzy, kick him, scream at him, etc. to keep their dog from killing him - if it means possibly saving my dog because I'm too stupid to leash my dog that doesn't have a perfect recall, then do it! Then come beat the crap out of me and smack some sense into me!


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## DaniFani

martemchik said:


> Yes...very true people need to learn the issues with their "friendly" dogs. But spouting off our own personal stories doesn't affect this one.
> 
> You were at a people park, it doesn't sound like there was acceptance by most users of that park that dogs were allowed to be off-leash. In that situation, it is wrong to have your dog off-leash.
> 
> I go to a county park by Lake Michigan weekly in the summer. Before you walk into the forested park area it clearly states, and reminds you, that all dogs should be on leash. The park is filled with paths that run through the forest and it is very rare that you see another dog/person walking through the trails. When you do, they are usually off-leash and it is clear that the leash law isn't obeyed. If you head out to the beach, it isn't really a people friendly beach (rocky bottom and sand) and although some people use it instead of the one about a mile south of there, no one cares that friendly dogs are off-leash there. I can play fetch with my dog, let him swim, ect.
> 
> The park also has some very large fields. Great for fetch and also training. I've trained my dog off-leash there plenty of times. Done long distance sits/downs/recalls. People have seen me, and if they do react its usually positive with admiration that I can make my dog sit/down/recall at such a distance.
> 
> At a park like this...if I ran into an off-leash dog (even if mine was leashed at the time) I wouldn't think twice about it. I wouldn't get angry at the owner that they don't have the same control of their dog that I have of mine.
> 
> But I will add...that I do not allow my dog to bother anyone at the park. If there are families having picnics, or clearly walking with their dog on-lead and not wanting to be bothered. I would not ever allow my dog to come over to them. I also didn't go to this park before my dog's recall was 99% reliable, as I do respect other's wishes.


I haven't read past this post, but I had to reply. This whole thread is getting so silly. Filled with anecdotal stories used to try and support one opinion over another. I don't give a rat's butt what the "usual" behavior is....if the LAW states it's a leash park...guess who's going to win in court...the LEASHED dog. I just don't get all this "well, it's generally accepted that people don't leash their dogs here...even though they are supposed to." It doesn't matter. I am speaking strictically about the UN LEASHED dog going to the LEASHED dog. I don't care whether at some point the leashed dog was going to be unleashed, or the hypocrisy of OP expecting others to obey laws but not her. I am speaking ONLY about the situation where an unleashed dog approaches a leashed dog...because in court, that's all that would matter. Not the "feelings" of anyone, not the "unfairness," not the "acceptable" not the "rude" not the "disrespectful." ALL that would matter is the law and whether it was followed in the moments encompassing the confrontation.

To those of you who say it's wrong to kick a dog coming towards your dog, "because it wasn't approaching threateningly"....please....are you kidding?! My dog is friendly with dogs, not DA, and generally pretty neutral. BUT, he is a puppy, he is still forming his confidence in me and this world. I do NOT accept another dog walking up to him, I ask the owner to please get their dog, because I do not want them to meet(key word there is "I"...it's MY dog, MY decision). I don't know that dog, and if I've learned anything in socializing my pup it's that people are generally not honest with themselves about their dogs.

And lets stop being so obtuse, Call of Duty Master...or whatever your name is...I doubt anyone comes out swinging, screaming, and kicking when an innocent little puppy approaches their dog...there is probably a verbal warning, a repositioning of dog behind owner, some hand waving, and maybe as an absolute last resort some kind of physical contact with the dog to keep them separated. These general, brush-stroke, sarcasm soaked statements about not being able to physically handle a dog in "true fight form" is just silly and pointless. (go ahead, I'm ready for your sarcastic, obtuse, response).

That's great that your dog (general "you") is so good at re-call and off-leash obedience. What about people who are traveling through, don't know the "acceptable disregard for the leash LAW" and want to take their (maybe skittish, FA, whatever) dog on a hike, ON LEASH!? You're telling me THEY are at fault simply because the majority know that it's off leash (illegally) and their dog should be able to handle that. :nono:


----------



## DaniFani

martemchik said:


> There's a huge difference between a stray dog running up to you on a walk, and taking your dog to a place where dog's usually run around off-lead. If you chose to go somewhere with the knowledge that you would run into off-lead dogs, you have no right to be mad when one decides to pay you and your dog a visit.
> 
> And I'm sorry...but both people with little dogs that chimed in on the discussion...I'm calling BS...BS that you would be alright with someone PUNTING your dog away from their dog when your dog is perfectly friendly and theirs is aggressive. The first thing that would happen after the vet visit is a thread called "SOME IDIOT PUNTED MY DOG BECAUSE THEIR DOG WAS GOING TO KILL MY PRETTY LITTLE INNOCENT DOG!"
> 
> It would start a discussion on how hard is hard enough to kick a dog, and depending on the flight path and distance traveled everyone would chime in on the fact that it was definitely too hard to kick that innocent little yorkie. Unless of course the owner had a GSD, then anything that person/their dog does probably has good reason behind it. If that owner owned any other breed...they'd be crucified. There would be a mob starting to go beat up this owner, then throw him in jail for animal abuse, and how they're putting other dogs in danger by having such a dangerous dog out and about.
> 
> We can all sit here and imagine how we'd react...how calm and collective we'd be...how understanding of the situation we'd be. But at that moment, none of us would be calm, we'd be PISSED...pissed that someone decided the best way to control their dangerous dog was to PUNT our friendly, innocent, never do anything wrong, dog.


I don't care how little, innocent, young, stupid, etc...that an approaching dog is. It's the poor dog's OWNERS fault that it's running up to a dog it doesn't know. I have been in the situation where a little dog came running up to my 6 month GSD. I didn't know what the little dog's temperament was. I just picked my dog up by his collar (some call this "hanging") and spun my dog around, positioning myself between the little dog and mine. Mine didn't react, didn't growl, just stood there while the little dog's owner had the gall to yell at ME about my dog!!!! 

I dare anyone to find a case where an unleashed dog that got hurt from approaching a LEASHED dog WON in a lawsuit. It just isn't the law. The leashed dog has every right to be anywhere leashed dogs are allowed. No matter what the public thinks. The leashed dog, whether DA, HA, FA, whatever, has just as many rights to be in a leashed area as the most neutral dog ever (unless of course the leashed dog has been deemed dangerous). This is just the most asinine argument. In the end the law wins....no matter what you think is fair...that's just the truth. No matter what the "accepted" behavior is, the LAW is the dog's must be leashed. The.End.


----------



## codmaster

DaniFani said:


> *I haven't read past this post*, but I had to reply. ..........................................
> To those of you who say it's wrong to kick a dog coming towards your dog, "because it wasn't approaching threateningly"....please....are you kidding?! My dog is friendly with dogs, not DA, and generally pretty neutral. BUT, he is a puppy, he is still forming his confidence in me and this world. I do NOT accept another dog walking up to him, I ask the owner to please get their dog, because I do not want them to meet(key word there is "I"...it's MY dog, MY decision). I don't know that dog, and if I've learned anything in socializing my pup it's that people are generally not honest with themselves about their dogs.
> 
> *And lets stop being so obtuse, Call of Duty Master...or whatever your name is...I doubt anyone comes out swinging, screaming, and kicking when an innocent little puppy approaches their dog...there is probably a verbal warning, a repositioning of dog behind owner, some hand waving, and maybe as an absolute last resort some kind of physical contact with the dog (yours or the other one?) to keep them separated. These general, brush-stroke, sarcasm soaked statements about not being able to physically handle a dog in "true fight form" is just silly and pointless. (go ahead, I'm ready for your sarcastic, obtuse, response).*
> 
> *No sarcastic response here - just admiration for your obvious physical abilities to be able to get and stay between your dog and an aggressive dog coming in to attack your dog, who (I assume) is just trying to stay behind you and let you handle things!*
> 
> That's great that your dog (general "you") is so good at re-call and off-leash obedience. What about people who are traveling through, don't know the "acceptable disregard for the leash LAW" and want to take their (maybe skittish, FA, whatever) dog on a hike, ON LEASH!? You're telling me THEY are at fault simply because the majority know that it's off leash (illegally) and their dog should be able to handle that. :nono:


*If you were being rude to me above - so be it. In the USA, anyone can have their own opinions about anything, and express them publicly if they are willing to do so. And obviously you are!*

*Thank you!*


----------



## codmaster

DaniFani said:


> I don't care how little, innocent, young, stupid, etc...that an approaching dog is. It's the poor dog's OWNERS fault that it's running up to a dog it doesn't know. I have been in the situation where a little dog came running up to my 6 month GSD. I didn't know what the little dog's temperament was. I* just picked my dog up by his collar (some call this "hanging") and spun my dog around, positioning myself between the little dog and mine.* Mine didn't react, didn't growl, just stood there while the little dog's owner had the gall to yell at ME about my dog!!!!
> 
> ..........The.End.


 
Friend of mine did the same thing with her adult male GSD. Unfortunately the little ankle biter ended up biting her dog on the leg!


----------



## huntergreen

DaniFani said:


> I haven't read past this post, but I had to reply. This whole thread is getting so silly. Filled with anecdotal stories used to try and support one opinion over another. I don't give a rat's butt what the "usual" behavior is....if the LAW states it's a leash park...guess who's going to win in court...the LEASHED dog. I just don't get all this "well, it's generally accepted that people don't leash their dogs here...even though they are supposed to." It doesn't matter. I am speaking strictically about the UN LEASHED dog going to the LEASHED dog. I don't care whether at some point the leashed dog was going to be unleashed, or the hypocrisy of OP expecting others to obey laws but not her. I am speaking ONLY about the situation where an unleashed dog approaches a leashed dog...because in court, that's all that would matter. Not the "feelings" of anyone, not the "unfairness," not the "acceptable" not the "rude" not the "disrespectful." ALL that would matter is the law and whether it was followed in the moments encompassing the confrontation.
> 
> To those of you who say it's wrong to kick a dog coming towards your dog, "because it wasn't approaching threateningly"....please....are you kidding?! My dog is friendly with dogs, not DA, and generally pretty neutral. BUT, he is a puppy, he is still forming his confidence in me and this world. I do NOT accept another dog walking up to him, I ask the owner to please get their dog, because I do not want them to meet(key word there is "I"...it's MY dog, MY decision). I don't know that dog, and if I've learned anything in socializing my pup it's that people are generally not honest with themselves about their dogs.
> 
> And lets stop being so obtuse, Call of Duty Master...or whatever your name is...I doubt anyone comes out swinging, screaming, and kicking when an innocent little puppy approaches their dog...there is probably a verbal warning, a repositioning of dog behind owner, some hand waving, and maybe as an absolute last resort some kind of physical contact with the dog to keep them separated. These general, brush-stroke, sarcasm soaked statements about not being able to physically handle a dog in "true fight form" is just silly and pointless. (go ahead, I'm ready for your sarcastic, obtuse, response).
> 
> That's great that your dog (general "you") is so good at re-call and off-leash obedience. What about people who are traveling through, don't know the "acceptable disregard for the leash LAW" and want to take their (maybe skittish, FA, whatever) dog on a hike, ON LEASH!? You're telling me THEY are at fault simply because the majority know that it's off leash (illegally) and their dog should be able to handle that. :nono:



you did read in the original post that the "club" was going to engage in off leash activities.


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## huntergreen

i think its time for this thread to end. for myself, i could only respond to the actual text op has written and tried not add or stray from her words. lets give some credit to the op. i am sure she has stopped and reconsidered the situation, may not agree with those who responded much the way i did, but has been given something to think about. lets give her credit for considering a portable fence to prevent other incidents like this. imho, its time to move on and get back to common ground that we all benefit from.


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## keecia

Hello, my name is Keecia, and this is my first post. I've read through this thread, and though I could possibly contribute something useful to the discussion. I have a DA Red Heeler, a HA Rodesian/GSD cross (abused past, so she's not great with new folks AT ALL) and a ridiculously social Border Collie, so I have some experience with all of these potential situations. I've been the owner of the pit bull, and the owner of Sasha, simultaneously in one walk. 

It's my opinion that folks are going to do what they want to do, like bring DA dogs to public parks, and let their social pups off leash, so I thought I might just throw in some suggestions as to how to handle the situation in the future. If you see a friendly pup walking over to your DA hound, it's just looking for a friend. All loud noises from humans only escalate the excitement of the friendly dog, and the anxiety of the fearful/aggressive dog. Bring treats, and take your friendly dog over to the new dog, and give it a new friend, in order to give the owner time to come get their dog. You can even grab friendly dog by the collar, gently, in order to control where it goes. The DA owner can then remove their dog from the situation that stresses it out. Situation handled, and the dogs don't get any negative reinforcement. However, I know that with my friendly dog, she'll go to greet a new dog, and if it isn't having it, she'll just walk away, as her goal is to make friends and not deal with a dog with a bad attitude. If you kick at her, though, she'll proceed to tell you how rude you are, and that can escalate into a situation, quickly. 

It's my experience that letting the dogs make a bad move before you correct them goes a long way into easing them into new situations. Also, making them think they might lose the ability to do something they love, like flyball, if they misbehave, will sink into a smart GSD's head pretty quickly. Also, it helps them know that you will remove them from a situation they aren't comfortable with, thereby protecting them. It goes a long way to building trust. I used to have a dog that tried to kill other dogs. Now I have dog that can meet new dogs off leash. However, she still has leash anxiety, and I have to respect that until she decides it is okay. These things take time, is all.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Originally Posted by *Konotashi*  
_In that situation, why would it be her fault? (Hypothetically speaking, of course).

She's walking her dog. Dog aggressive or not, she should have the right to walk her dog peacefully down the street without being molested by off-leash dogs, friendly or not. 

I don't think it should be her responsibility to protect other people's dogs who don't listen. If I had a large breed dog that was DA, would I walk it with a muzzle on? Probably, just for my own peace of mind. Should it be my responsibility? Absolutely not!_



Quote:
Originally Posted by *Konotashi*  
_In that situation, why would it be her fault? (Hypothetically speaking, of course).

She's walking her dog. Dog aggressive or not, she should have the right to walk her dog peacefully down the street without being molested by off-leash dogs, friendly or not. 

I don't think it should be her responsibility to protect other people's dogs who don't listen. If I had a large breed dog that was DA, would I walk it with a muzzle on? Probably, just for my own peace of mind. Should it be my responsibility? Absolutely not!_

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. It is absolutely your responsibilty as a responsible dog owner to protect other dogs from a dog that is likely to bite. I'm not sure there's a municipality in the country where this is not the case. 

You seem to be implying that only the off-leash dog isn't listening. How well is the DA dog listening if the owner can't verbally prevent her dog from attacking? Which lack of command results in the greatest harm? 

--------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea how to multi quote here so I just did a copy/paste.

I am sorry bga. I think YOU are wrong, wrong, wrong here. 

I DO NOT care if a DA dog is out walking on leash. As long as it is under control the owners physical control (on leash and restrained from contact with other dogs) then it should be able to walk anywhere AND not be accosted by rude out of control dogs.

As far as I a concerned a DA dog lungeing and barking is fine PROVIDED the owner can physically contol it's movements. I don't like seeing a dog lunge and bark but as long as it cannot get to me or my dog I am okay with it and would consider it being under owner control. It may not be under it's own impulse control but it is under owner physical control.

As Huntergreen said I think this whole thread is over the top.


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## martemchik

DaniFani said:


> I dare anyone to find a case where an unleashed dog that got hurt from approaching a LEASHED dog WON in a lawsuit. It just isn't the law. The leashed dog has every right to be anywhere leashed dogs are allowed. No matter what the public thinks. The leashed dog, whether DA, HA, FA, whatever, has just as many rights to be in a leashed area as the most neutral dog ever (unless of course the leashed dog has been deemed dangerous). This is just the most asinine argument. In the end the law wins....no matter what you think is fair...that's just the truth. No matter what the "accepted" behavior is, the LAW is the dog's must be leashed. The.End.


I dare you to find a case where anything like this even came close to BEING a lawsuit...lol.

We all scream and shout about lawsuits but the fact is, a lawyer would cost you more than the winnings in a lawsuit over a dog. In most states, you have to replace or fix broken property if it is your fault its broken...REPLACE being the key word. So if a $500 dog is injured, and the vet bills are more than that, you only have to pay $500. Just like a totaled car...it costs more to fix it than to replace it and so you just get the cost to replace.

The fact is, the law doesn't matter here as it would be very easy to argue that it doesn't get enforced. OP actually stated that police men drive by and don't say anything. Once the enforcers stop enforcing, a lawyer would bring that up in a court room and the lawsuit would be over. Equality is a huge part of "justice" and therefore if other people aren't getting in trouble for breaking the law and you can prove that...you can't either.

I don't think anyone was arguing who would be in trouble anyways since NOTHING happened. We were just discussing that both people were "irresponsible." One for allowing their dogs to run all over the place without control, and the other for willfully bringing her DA dog to a place that is KNOWN to have off-leash dogs. My assumption being that there are plenty of parks in the area where leash laws are followed and enforced, and those types of places would be better for DA dogs.

OP, sorry, no one will ever convince me that they'd be alright with my breaking their dog in half with a punt just to "protect" it from a DA dog. And sadly, the law would probably look down on that as well, "Sir, you kicked a yorki 20 feet because you thought your GERMAN SHEPHERD was going to kill it?"


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## Jax08

martemchik said:


> We were just discussing that *both people were "irresponsible." *One for allowing their dogs to run all over the place without control, and the other for willfully bringing her DA dog to a place that is KNOWN to have off-leash dogs.


and this really should be the end of the discussion.


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## selzer

It does not have to be a lawsuit. Dogs aren't citizens. They do not get the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty. What happens is that AC is called or the Dog Warden, or the Police, or the Sheriff. 

Then that official person makes a determination. _Usually _the determination will not get your dog killed. Not yet. Usually there is a one bite rule. And the police or the Animal Control, will make a decision, that might be dependent on who made the call, and which dog was damaged and how much, or just who is screaming the loudest. It may be down to he said, she said, and if it was determined that both dogs had been off lead, well, it just might be that both dogs are cited, or the dog that did the most damage will get the name on file. 

And a lot of owners might just let that go, because they know that they will not allow anything of the kind to ever happen again, and they know that their dog is not a violent killer. If they do not want their dog to have a strike against it, they have to take the organization to court and PROVE their dog's innocence. And who has that kind of money. 

And the next time ANYTHING happens, the dog is loose, the dog scared a crazy jogger that over reacted to a perfectly friendly dog, the it _might _become a life-or-death situation. And how many judges, AC people, etc., are going to give a second thought to a dog that is on its second chance? 

So, I hold that the best way to ensure your dog stays in the good graces of all, is to protect other dogs from your dog, by not taking a known DA dog to a place where loose dogs are likely to be, and by acting before a situation turns into a row.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Good point Selzer but you cannot control all situations ands Sh..... happens. 

I walked my DA dog in areas that were known to be relatively dog free and at times of the day when it was less likely to encounter other dogs. But STUFF still happened. As long as my dog, DA or not, was under my physical control I had EVERY right to be on street walking my dog. The idiots that let dogs run loose get what they deserve then. 

I was walking Max at a park at 6 AM. Some moron decided to let her mini schnauazers out to potty at the park. Drove up in a car and opened the door to let them out. They made a beeline right for us and were verty nasty. Thankfully I turned Max away and was able to get him behind a car while she was chasing her dogs. When she finally got them I asked (not nicely either) just what she was thinking. She said she did not want to have to pick up her yard so she had started bringing them to the park to relieve themselves. She lived a block away from the park. Sadly, within a month the city put the park off limits to dogs. It had been a great place to take Max.

But the point it, stuff happens. It may not look pretty, I amy not like my dog reacting, I may need to work issues, I may need to do lots of things if I have a DA dog. But as far as I am concerned if my dog is under my physical control and I can keep him form contact with people or other leashed dogs I can take him to any park I want to walk. If an unleashed dog coems after us tough POOP! Owner better control.


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## martemchik

Kayos and Havoc said:


> But the point it, stuff happens. It may not look pretty, I amy not like my dog reacting, I may need to work issues, I may need to do lots of things if I have a DA dog. But as far as I am concerned if my dog is under my physical control and I can keep him form contact with people or other leashed dogs I can take him to any park I want to walk. If an unleashed dog coems after us tough POOP! Owner better control.


So true! And I agree with you 100%!

I don't have a DA dog, I never have. But when I'm at my on-leash park illegally off leash...I'm very respectful to the other dogs. And the other owners are the same way. I've yet to run into someone that doesn't try to keep their dog away from mine before asking if it's alright. I've ran into a few DA dogs...but their owners tend to reel them back in and put them on leash (as I do) and we just pass by each other. I also think it really helps having a GSD (a sable one at that) and not too many people want their dog (DA or non-DA) getting in a scrap with a GSD.

I'm also lucky in the sense that my boy doesn't generally perceive ankle biters as a threat. Even if they come up barking/growling...unless they go in for a bite he just kind of plays with them and smacks them around (if the leash isn't tight enough). But if my dog did react and hurt a small dog because no matter how much I pulled him back the thing kept coming...I wouldn't feel that bad. I'd also probably not stick around for any aftermath and if AC or any other authorities got involved, I'd fight their "findings" to the death.

Thankfully this is all hypothetical as I have never really run into crazily "irresponsible" owners. Most people are very respectful, and most likely are more worried about their dog when they see a GSD. People (without dogs) have also been very accepting even though they have to know I'm breaking the rules, I guess they realize the level of obedience I have on my boy and don't worry about things. Many times they'll come up and ask questions about how I did it. I guess the owners in our area that do allow their dogs off-leash against the rules are responsible enough not to let anything happen and the people appreciate it.

I guess I'm just lucky to live in an area where dog owners are pretty responsible and respectful.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I have run into rude people, disresptful people, ignorant people. I think until you have a DA dog you do not realize the impact an off leash out of control dog can have on your dog. 

I currently do not have a DA dog, but I have had two in the past. It is not fun.

I think you would be surprised at the number of DA (and although not technically the same I count reactive dogs here too) dogs there are in this world. Every dog can be reactive or aggressive with another dog at some point in thier lives. It behooves all of us to use our heads when dealing with this issue. 

The old "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" might apply here. Give space and consideration to all dogs. They may look frindly but I have seen that change in an instant. 

I was walking Kayos as a 6 month old puppy on leash on a college campus. Lady was walking her dog off leash. Her dog came toward us and I got the "He's friendly!" comment. He appeared friendly ad he came toward us. At this point not much I can do except be ready to step in. He started to snap in Kayos face, I swung to the left blocking her and knocking him in the head with my knee. His owner was not happy. Too bad. She gave no consideration so she got none.


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## codmaster

Anybody with an unleashed dog in a place where there is a leash law is breaking the law! Should at the least get a ticket - and doesn't make a bit of difference the size or breed of the dog.

Now if the law says "control" of the dog - that is different. If someone has a dog well enough trained to have a 100% recall and/or stay then they are allowed to have their dog off leash. Personally I haven't seen too many folks with dogs like that!


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## martemchik

codmaster said:


> Anybody with an unleashed dog in a place where there is a leash law is breaking the law! Should at the least get a ticket - and doesn't make a bit of difference the size or breed of the dog.
> 
> Now if the law says "control" of the dog - that is different. If someone has a dog well enough trained to have a 100% recall and/or stay then they are allowed to have their dog off leash. Personally I haven't seen too many folks with dogs like that!


They should get a ticket...but its a very very very hard to enforce law. The law and the signs are usually there so that people follow them because they're respectful, not because they fear getting a ticket.

The park I go to is a county park with trails running through a forest that leads out to Lake Michigan. There is no road leading directly to the lake. The road/parking lot is a good half mile from the lake because there isn't direct access to the lake since there is a huge drop off from the park to the beach. The paths slowly guide you down this drop off.

So no police officer ever gets down that far, and even if they did...I'd probably get a warning, they have better things to do in my town than hand out off-leash tickets. If someone calls it in...it would probably take a police officer 30 minutes or more to get there (by car then on foot), and I doubt they'll waste that much time to hear a complaint about an off-lead dog that isn't bothering anyone but someone just decided to try to get me a ticket.

On top of that...if someone calls in a complaint, they have to be in court in order for the ticket to stand (6th amendment), so if you feel the need to teach me a lesson it will cost you time out of your life in order to be a witness in court. Most people aren't out there to get you though, I don't really know anyone that would randomly call the cops because there is an off-leash dog running around, playing fetch, swimming, hiking, ect and not bothering anyone. Sure there's that one in a million person, but I don't worry about them and just try to keep my dog from not bothering anyone.

I give everyone the respect/space they want, and would never allow my dog to greet another one off-leash (unless I have yelled to the owner that it's alright as their dog is barreling towards us). I've noticed that there is a different demeanor to someone's body language when their dog is DA and when its friendly, and generally those people that don't mind their dog mauling another one, aren't taking time out of their day to visit a beautiful park and let their dog go swimming.


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## codmaster

martemchik said:


> They should get a ticket...but its a very very very hard to enforce law. The law and the signs are usually there so that people *follow them because they're respectful*, not because they fear getting a ticket.
> 
> *Does that mean that you are not respectful (because you don't followw the offleash law!)?*
> 
> The park I go to is a county park with trails running through a forest that leads out to Lake Michigan. There is no road leading directly to the lake. The road/parking lot is a good half mile from the lake because there isn't direct access to the lake since there is a huge drop off from the park to the beach. The paths slowly guide you down this drop off.
> 
> So no police officer ever gets down that far, and even if they did...I'd probably get a warning, they have better things to do in my town than hand out off-leash tickets. If someone calls it in...it would probably take a police officer 30 minutes or more to get there (by car then on foot), and I doubt they'll waste that much time to hear a complaint about an off-lead dog that isn't bothering anyone but someone just decided to try to get me a ticket.
> 
> On top of that...if someone calls in a complaint, they have to be in court in order for the ticket to stand (6th amendment), so if you feel the need to teach me a lesson it will cost you time out of your life in order to be a witness in court. Most people aren't out there to get you though, I don't really know anyone that would randomly call the cops because there is an off-leash dog running around, playing fetch, swimming, hiking, ect and *not bothering anyone*. Sure there's that one in a million person, but I don't worry about them and just* try* to keep my dog from not bothering anyone.
> 
> I give everyone the respect/space they want, and would never allow my dog to greet another one off-leash (*unless I have yelled to the owner that it's alright as their dog is barreling towards us).*
> *Once you yell, it is ok for your dogs to go up to other dogs?*
> 
> I've noticed that there is a different demeanor to someone's body language when their dog is DA and when its friendly, and generally those people that don't mind their dog mauling another one, aren't taking time out of their day to visit a beautiful park and let their dog go swimming.


 
It almost sounds like you are saying that because there isn't much liklihood of any enforcement it is OK to break the law? Is that right or did I miss your meaning?

And I also assume from your post that your offleash dogs have instant 100% recall, or at least have absolutely no interest in other people and/or other dogs no matter what the other dogs do?

So that it is ok for your dogs to break the law?

Hopefully I have not misinterpreted your post and meaning?

Sounds like you feel like you can choose to break the law because: 
1. Not enough cops around to enforce the law
2. Other person will not take the time to go to court
3. You don't respect the laws
4. ??????


----------



## martemchik

codmaster said:


> It almost sounds like you are saying that because there isn't much liklihood of any enforcement it is OK to break the law? Is that right or did I miss your meaning?
> 
> And I also assume from your post that your offleash dogs have instant 100% recall, or at least have absolutely no interest in other people and/or other dogs no matter what the other dogs do?
> 
> So that it is ok for your dogs to break the law?
> 
> Hopefully I have not misinterpreted your post and meaning?
> 
> Sounds like you feel like you can choose to break the law because:
> 1. Not enough cops around to enforce the law
> 2. Other person will not take the time to go to court
> 3. You don't respect the laws
> 4. ??????


Lol...nope, you got everything right. And to answer your blue questions...I am not respectful of the law...but I am respectful of people at the park and do not allow my boy to go near them unless they come over and ask. No, I do not ever yell...my boy is friendly, but if I see another dog, I call him into heel and either walk in heel with him or leash him to make sure he doesn't go over to say hello.

My dog does have 100% recall at this point. He doesn't care about humans, does care about other dogs (friendly), but if I'm holding a tennis ball...nothing else matters in life. I didn't take him to this park until he had 100% recall, because I do respect others and their dogs.

Your list about "breaking the law." Yup, that's how I feel. There are a lot worse laws out there that I could be breaking, and on top of that it's not a law, its an ordinance, so its not even considered as big of a crime to break it. IMO its like speeding, if you want to crucify me for breaking a leash law, you're probably a hypocrite since most of us speed on a daily basis and can find excuses for doing that.

Maybe the best way of putting it is that I, "follow/respect the SPIRIT of the law" although I am breaking the actual law.


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## codmaster

martemchik said:


> Lol...nope, you got everything right. And to answer your blue questions...I am not respectful of the law...but I am respectful of people at the park and do not allow my boy to go near them unless they come over and ask. No, I do not ever yell...my boy is friendly, but if I see another dog, I call him into heel and either walk in heel with him or leash him to make sure he doesn't go over to say hello.
> 
> My dog does have 100% recall at this point. He doesn't care about humans, does care about other dogs (friendly), but if I'm holding a tennis ball...nothing else matters in life. I didn't take him to this park until he had 100% recall, because I do respect others and their dogs.
> 
> Your list about "breaking the law." Yup, that's how I feel. There are a lot worse laws out there that I could be breaking, and on top of that it's not a law, its an ordinance, so its not even considered as big of a crime to break it. IMO its like speeding, if you want to crucify me for breaking a leash law, *you're probably a hypocrite* since most of us speed on a daily basis and can find excuses for doing that.
> 
> *How about "paying the fine" when caught - It is truly hypocritical to deliberately break a law and then cry about the penalty. I.E. how would you feel if your deliberately off lead dog is attacked and hurt by another unleashed dog? No complaint to te other owner because you were both breaking the law, right? And, if you obeyed the law and your dog was leashed the other dog could not hve gotten your dog (esp. if everybody obeyed th law, heh?)*
> 
> Maybe the best way of putting it is that I, "follow/respect the SPIRIT of the law" although I am breaking the actual law.


The "SPIRIT" of the law? What is that? Either the law (dogs on a leash!) is obeyed or not!


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## martemchik

If another dog attacked my dog, I'd feel terrible, but like I've stated, I live in an area where the majority of dogs are friendly, and those that aren't have responsible enough owners to keep their dogs in control. I guess I don't even worry about my dog running into another off-leash dog that would want to hurt him. It's really never even crossed my mind. I also know I have a powerful, dominant, take-no-**** GSD, and when he has been in minor scrums I always feel bad that mine ends up on top and I'm doing the "pulling off."

The majority of owners I have met and spoken with on those trails/that beach are very respectful and understand that both parties are breaking the law, but we aren't worried either because we trust that no one would put the other person's dog in danger. There's also a comradery of not getting the park shut down or dogs completely banned from the park. No one wants to deal with authorities and ruin fun for the rest of the crowd that uses it. Should mention that on average I see 3 other dog's while at the park, and at most 10 people unless there is a camp group or something there in the summer. And generally, the camp kids love playing with a GSD so they come over and ask to pet.


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## blehmannwa

I call Animal Control when I see repeat violators of the leash law in my park. It's a small park with lots of foot traffic and there is no real open space for off leash activities. Generally I give a verbal warning first...something like,"Hey Animal Control is stepping up enforcement, leash your dog." The supervisor and residents of the Senior Housing complex that faces the park are also quick to report habitual offenders. It seems to go in waves, every spring brings a new crop of off leash people, we all complain, Animal Control steps up patrols and a bunch of tickets are written

Because I'm quick to complain and report, I have to toe the line with my dogs. They are never off-leash or dragging leash in the park. I don't play fetch or even practice their down/stays when in a public on leash area. Like Caesar's wife, we have to be above reproach. That's one of the reasons that I get irritable when I see what I presume to be more knowledgeable and responsible dog owners (like on this forum) having rather a cafeteria approach to leash law--picking and choosing what part applies to them. All of this talk about kicking and DA dogs would have been avoided in everyone complied with the leash law--in this instance.


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## martemchik

blehmannwa said:


> I call Animal Control when I see repeat violators of the leash law in my park. It's a small park with lots of foot traffic and there is no real open space for off leash activities. Generally I give a verbal warning first...something like,"Hey Animal Control is stepping up enforcement, leash your dog." The supervisor and residents of the Senior Housing complex that faces the park are also quick to report habitual offenders. It seems to go in waves, every spring brings a new crop of off leash people, we all complain, Animal Control steps up patrols and a bunch of tickets are written
> 
> Because I'm quick to complain and report, I have to toe the line with my dogs. They are never off-leash or dragging leash in the park. I don't play fetch or even practice their down/stays when in a public on leash area. Like Caesar's wife, we have to be above reproach. That's one of the reasons that I get irritable when I see what I presume to be more knowledgeable and responsible dog owners (like on this forum) having rather a cafeteria approach to leash law--picking and choosing what part applies to them. All of this talk about kicking and DA dogs would have been avoided in everyone complied with the leash law--in this instance.


Different park, different situation, and it sounds like a place like that I'd always have my dog leashed. The park I'm describing is a county park, pretty much a forest preserve, and houses a par-67 golf course that takes up less than half of the actual park area. I maybe see 10 people on my walks there on weekends, and even less on weekdays.

I get what you mean about responsibility and being above the status quo...but isn't having a very well trained dog and showing people that its possible to have a well trained dog above the status quo as well? I don't know...its my belief that we could all be responsible depending on the types of situations we're in.

BTW...when I first went to this park I had my boy on leash the whole time until we got the the beach to play some fetch in the water. I then started noticing how people would hike with their dogs off leash and no one seemed to care. So that's why I started to. There was clearly no feeling of, lets call AC the moment we see an off-lead dog.


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## ShatteringGlass

bga said:


> Right ... let's get personal then. I do actually "stop to read and think" about your posts very carefully. One thing I've noted is that you seem to make some pretty massive assumptions yourself.
> 
> I have no idea where you're coming up with this stuff, but I NEVER said it was acceptable for an unleashed dog to invade your personal space. I NEVER said you need to enjoy it. I NEVER said it wasn't rude. I never said I wouldn't be in the wrong if my dog was off-leash and I couldn't recall it from your dog. My point is that it does happen from time to time, and kicking that friendly dog is an overreaction far beyond rude, especially when it is YOUR dog that is the root of the problem. Let's turn the question around. What makes you think you have the right to physically assualt someone's dog when that dog has indicated no aggression towards you or your dog? If you're honestly trying to prevent a fight, the most practical, and likely successful response, would be to kick the aggressive dog, as someone here already suggested.
> 
> Rudeness aside, kicking a dog is actually criminal in most areas, with far stiffer fines than anything you would get for having an unleashed dog. Lastly, it's going to get you into a world of trouble if you do it to the wrong person.
> 
> And speaking of reading carefully, I mentioned in an earlier post that it is not valid to judge an interaction between dogs based on what would be acceptable between humans. There are plently of of ways that dogs relate to dogs and humans relate to humans that are not interchangeable. ie. butt sniffing for dogs, having a romantic dinner for humans. Your comparison isn't valid.
> 
> Bottom Line: If your dog is likely to take a piece out of someone or something, give it the training and socialization it needs to overcome this. Until that happens, either don't go to public places or muzzle the dog when you do. The owners of balanced dogs, some who don't have perfect recall, should not be blamed for your problem...



Are you serious??? If there is a LEASH LAW and your dog is loose and runs up to my LEASHED dog and my dog gets snippy and a fight ensues, I'm the one at fault??? Are you kidding me?? Wow....


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## selzer

Ya see, when we disregard the leash law and illegally allow our dogs to run loose in a park, it is like the little stone that starts an avalanch. It does not matter how respectful _you _are to other dog owners. What happens is that people _see _you disregarding the law. And pretty soon more respectful people let their controlled dogs off-lead at the park. And pretty soon it is common to see off-lead dogs at the park. 

And then people who see the dogs enjoying themselves off lead, start letting their less-well-trained dogs off lead. These people do not spend their down time on internet forums learning about dog behavior, dog body language, proper dog-person etiquette. These people only see dogs running loose and having a good time. And they like their dogs and think their dogs can do that too. And some times they are perfectly right. Their dogs, who are not aggressive, just a little forward, get along quite well, when they are running loose in the park. 

And then someone comes with a dog aggressive dog that they intend to let off lead ILLEGALLY at the same park in the name of training. While it is still leashed a friendly forward dog that enjoys the park kind of illegally like everyone else, runs up. 

I guess if you are going to be absolutely anal about following the leash laws and ensuring that everyone else is, then it is fine for you to have the attitude that it is on them, if they are off-lead. For everyone else, they need to stop being so angry at the world around them, and look at how their behavior contributes to the problems that we face all the time.


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