# Responding to a Classified ad, D'oh!



## Dixie (May 17, 2005)

Okay, so I just broke my number one rule, but I couldn't help it! I've told people I would never do it, I have spoken against it many times, and have shaken my head at people who have chosen to do it. What am I thinking?!









I was sure that I was going to call this number in today's paper in response to their ad for "AKC REGISTERED GERMAN Shepherd puppies, 8 WEEKS, $350, black & tan, sable" and speak to someone who was relatively unfriendly and unknowledgeable.

HOWEVER, I just spoke to a VERY nice man on the phone (he called me 'dear' lol) and after several minutes of questions and answers, he convinced me that I need to come and see them around 5:30 or 6:00 tonight. He lives on a farm, and the parents are on site. It is also a little encouraging to me that he is letting them go at 8 weeks, as opposed to 6.

I realize that this is probably a very bad idea. I am probably going to go visit them and fall in love with one of them. I realize that I've already broken one of the first rules of reputable breeder and stable dog finding. However, seeing as how I'm probably going to be driving down there this evening, do y'all have some ideas of questions I need to ask him? This is such a big decision, and it's definitely not one that I take lightly... I just kind of found myself dialing the number today.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

at the very very very very least!!!!!!!!!!! Please ask to see OFA certificates on the parents - tell the nice man that no matter if the parent LOOK like they are fine, many HD dogs look fine!!!!!!!! PLEASE check this as a barely acceptable minimum requirement for purchase of a puppy!

Lee


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Like Lee said, I'd look for a minimum of OFA certs. Titles would be nice but not entirely necessary. 

Walk in there with a skeptical eye but you never know. Could just be an old farmer who loves the breed and doesn't care about making money. Maybe he bred the litter to keep one for himself and ended up with a dozen puppies so he's letting them go for short money.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I would start by asking to see the health certification on both parents. Then I would ask to see proof that he is training and competing in some type of dog activity. Ask a leading question about the breed in general and see how much he knows about the GSD. Vague answers are not going to be good enough. Ask him why he wants to breed in general and what is it about these two dogs in particular that made him want to continue their lines.

I doubt that this person is going to be able to provide any of it for you, though. Remember, even a BYB can be friendly and nice. Being nice doesn't necessarily mean that he deserves your money. 

Here is the deal. The vast majority of people who go out to "look at puppies" in situations like this end up leaving with a puppy. Once you are there, the hook has already been set and all that is left is for you to flop your way into the boat.

You yourself said that you KNOW better! You know that this is not a good idea. Call the guy back, ask him some questions and tell him no thanks if he can't answer them the way you need a breeder to answer them. Did you go over anything of substance on the phone? Or was it more important to get you out there?

I am not saying that everyone that talks a good game should be believed. I let someone's smooth talk drown out the warning bells I had when i purchased my last puppy. I know that it isn't enough for someone to just talk a good game, they need to be able to back it up. But if a breeder can't even talk the talk, there is no way they can walk the talk, too.
Sheilah


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Meet the parents. Temperament is inherited.


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

In the great scheme of things, your instincts are right on! However, I have to say that BYB is not always a dirty word.

One very lucky day some years ago we answered an ad in the paper - drove out to the middle of nowhere to a very modest farm - were regaled with information about stuff we'd never heard of - answered innumerable questions about us, our home and lifestyle - met parent dogs (the only two he had) and heard all about their accomplishments and those of their ancestors - were shown AKC papers/pedigrees and OFA/Health Certificates with further information provided - were given a very forthright assessment of each of the pups along with recommendations for our particular situation - and came home with the best GSD EVER. (OK so maybe I'm biased!) Honestly, though, Klaus was an amazing rock-solid and beautiful dog who never had a health issue until HS took him. 

You will be so much better off than we were - we had no idea about any of this stuff and had we not lucked into this guy, the story might have ended very differently. 

Others have given you great advice. Along with an open mind armed with good questions, please steel yourself right now to remember that the initial $350.00 price could easily mushroom exponentially - both financially and emotionally - if you give in to something less than stellar because those cute puppies are right there for the taking or you feel sorry for them.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

I did the same thing called up on an ad.

I got Bo from a farmer, or BYB or hobby breeder not sure what she was. My main concern was that her dogs were well cared for and they were and all looked healthy and loved. I have no problems with Bo what so ever, he is well behaved and smart and healthy. I had to get a puppy due to I have a Alpha 18 pound JRT and a puppy can be dominated by her. I did try the reputable breeders near by but the price tag was to high for me. I don't regret it at all.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Yes. The Temperment is so important when you meet the parents. Bo's parents were so friendly and his dad pee'd on our tire right before we left , she says he pees on everyones. Funny.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Quote:In the great scheme of things, your instincts are right on! However, I have to say that BYB is not always a dirty word.
> 
> One very lucky day some years ago we answered an ad in the paper - drove out to the middle of nowhere to a very modest farm - were regaled with information about stuff we'd never heard of - answered innumerable questions about us, our home and lifestyle - met parent dogs (the only two he had) and heard all about their accomplishments and those of their ancestors - were shown AKC papers/pedigrees and OFA/Health Certificates with further information provided - were given a very forthright assessment of each of the pups along with recommendations for our particular situation - and came home with the best GSD EVER. (OK so maybe I'm biased!) Honestly, though, Klaus was an amazing rock-solid and beautiful dog who never had a health issue until HS took him.


I wouldn't consider this breeder a BYB, though. Your guy at least was doing OFA certs on his dogs. I would have also wanted to see the guy out with his dogs, doing something. 

I am not sure if I would consider someone who didn't do some activity with their dogs a hobby breeder in the truest sense of the term as I know it. I do think there is a huge amount of confusion over the differences between a BYB, a hobby breeder and a commercial breeder.
A BYB should ALWAYS be a dirty word, IMHO. But there is a clear difference between a BYB and a hobby breeder.
Sheilah


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

I would not buy a back yard puppy just because the breeder was nice to you on the phone. Of course hes nice, he wants the sale. Def ask for OFA or proof hes at least had xrays done at the vets.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

As Lee says - Please at least make sure the parents are OFA certified and that he can prove it. Preferably titled as well. 

I know this argument may not mean anything to a lot of people but I'm putting it out there in case it does but perhaps someone just hasn't quite thought of it that way - You CAN sometimes find a great dog from a BYB. You are taking a lot of risks as far as health, HD etc, but there are some great dogs out there even from uncertified or unproven parents and I'm not saying there aren't. 

However, it's also important to think about what is going to happen not just with the dog you buy, but to the rest of the litter. Is the seller really checking out the people buying the pups or is he selling them to anyone who will pay the $350? Is he selling them to "nice people" without doing any real digging into who these people are and how they'll care for the dog they're buying? Is he keeping tabs with his buyers and willing to take dogs back down the road if there's a problem? 

Because for the most part, this type of seller isn't doing those things. YOU may end up with a great pup who grows up and has a happy life. But what about his brothers and sisters? From this litter and every other litter that this person is breeding? What about their offspring? How many of his brothers ended up living their lives with flybitten ears at the end of chains? How many of his sisters are now being bred every heat cycle so that her puppies can be sold at the local pet store? How many ended up being bigger than the their owners expected, or more expensive to care for, or shed too much, and one day found themselves dumped at the local shelter and dying there scared and alone? 

Sellers who cut corners may sometimes produce good dogs but the buyers who encourage them to continue have an impact far beyond the life of the individual puppy that they purchased. When you buy from a breeder who really does it right - screens their breeding stock, titles the parents, cares for their dogs AND the dogs they produce by being careful where they sell puppies, staying in touch with buyers, by taking dogs back if there's a problem, you're not only paying money to get a great dog, you're supporting a breeder who cares about German Shepherds and is doing his or her level best to keep them out of shelters, out of overburdened rescues, and to make sure that ALL the puppies, not just the one you bought, get to live happy and healthy lives. 

When you buy from someone who is not doing those things, maybe you'll get a healthy good tempered pup and maybe you won't, but you can be pretty sure that you're helping support a system that contributes to the enormous problem of pet overpopulation and hurts the breed we all love.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Keep in mind if he works a farm perhaps his dogs actually help him WORK on the farm which is as good if not BETTER than some "working" titles. Especially if the dogs go out and help day in and day out......

Maybe not but something to think and ask about.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I want to add to what ruqs said.

One of my neighboring farmers has a very nice looking male GSD. Farm is on one side of the road the houses on the other side of the road and it is spread out for 1/2 mile. This GSD is one of the nicest tempermented dogs I have seen. He is free all day and his duties include watching over the calf in the calf hutch community and alerting a human if a calf is out. He patrols the farm and makes sure everthing is right, gates closed and kittens away from the road. He looks both ways before crossing the road, he will sit off the road and wait until you pass, he will watch you if you drive by too slow.

So working on a farm can be many things not just herding.

Val


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I agree with Ruq to see what kind of farmer it is. If he has truly working dogs and breeds because he needs a dog to replace injured or passed away dog then I do not see a problem with such breeder. And I wouldn't expect him to go and compete in agility or rally and hold it against him if he doesn't. 

From some posts on this forum I start having an impression that American Farmer is some kind of horrible monster that is abusive to animals and runs a puppy mill as a rule of thumb. From my experience it's usually the opposite, farmers and ranchers are very down to earth, they understand, respect and love animals more than city or suburbia dwellers even though they don't pamper them endlessly. I would definitely consider this puppy but would keep my eyes open and ask questions.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

Here's what my breeder told me, "purchasing a puppy is a crap shoot." 

Nobody can guarantee a perfectly healthy dog. That's why breeders have contracts. I have purchased puppies from reliable breeders in the past and at some point each has had some sort of health issue. It would be nice that every GS breeder can guarantee a dog against every ailment but it's just not possible. Some people are luckier with a $350 dog compared with somebody who paid $2,000. You are taking a gamble no matter if the dog's parents are OFA'd or not. You are just stacking the deck in your favor regarding the hips, but what's to keep the dog from having other issues like allergies? You just can't win.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

For $350 you could get an awesome puppy from a rescue and they'd have all of their vetting done and you'd get some change back. Just saying...


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:If he has truly working dogs and breeds because he needs a dog to replace injured or passed away dog then I do not see a problem with such breeder. And I wouldn't expect him to go and compete in agility or rally and hold it against him if he doesn't.


I agree and should have been more clear when I said "titles". I have nothing against farmers and believe there are all sorts of different work that Shepherds can do. I would still expect a person who uses Shepherds around the farm to do health/hip screenings before breeding however. 

But again - if this guys is advertising the puppies in the classifieds and is selling them to anyone who will buy one then everything else I said still applies. He could be breeding the greatest dogs in the world but if he isn't paying attention to where they end up, he's still doing a disservice to the breed and to the dogs he's creating. It is important to think about the health and temperament of the dogs we bring home but if we care about dogs and the breed in general it is also incredibly important to pay attention to what kinds of programs we're encouraging with our purchase.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

This bears repeating


"When you buy from someone who is not doing those things, maybe you'll get a healthy good tempered pup and maybe you won't, but you can be pretty sure that you're helping support a system that contributes to the enormous problem of pet overpopulation and hurts the breed we all love. "


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## Dixie (May 17, 2005)

Well, that was an experience.









I drove out there about an hour ago. The place was littered with broken down cars and beer cans. I brought my mom along for the ride, and she wanted to turn around as soon as we pulled up at the house. Trying to keep an open mind, I told her to stop. I got out of the car, and opened the chain-link gate into their front yard.

There were two very small mothers sauntering around the yard. One was a sable and the other was black and tan. According to the owner, they were about 6 years old. The father was eight years old. Puppies were EVERYWHERE. Half of them had bellies twice the size of their bodies and when I reached down to pet the others I could feel their hips and backbone protruding from their poor bodies. Their two year old daughter was running around and stomping on the pups that were laying down. Most were caked with mud.

A mother and her son were already there when I arrived. Before I entered the yard she warned me "The hardest part about this is picking one! They are all so cute!" They picked out a sable female, and then decided that they needed ANOTHER pup. The owners assured them that getting two would be fine (they cut them a deal- two for 500), and that they actually probably needed two to keep the other from barking as much.

I respectfully declined. As bad as I felt for those pups there was no way I could let myself take one home.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not everyone who advertises in the paper are extreme like that. That is just awful. Unfortunately, in most places the conditions have to be severe for the authorities to be able to step in. Everyone's opinion of "severe" is different. 

I really do not know if they would do anything about muddy, wormy puppies. But all they can do is turn you down. 

My suggestion would be to call animal control or the dog warden in the area and see if they will check it out. 

In our state, you need a kennel license if you are advertising puppies for sale, so if this was Ohio, the dog warden can check out the kennel license. And, selling puppies, more than one litter and advertising and all requires a vendor's license, and requires that they pay sales tax. That should be looked into too. 

If the run around and the hassle is enough, these people might give it up. Frankly, at $250/puppy, they are really not making enough money on puppies to make it worth while.

Usually, you can tell by the phone call how knowledgeable a person is and whether you should bother to waste your time going there. 

Congradulations on NOT "rescuing" a puppy from there. It really is the best thing to do. 

Even better is to spend an hour or so of their time, discussing health screenings, problems with the breed, nutrician, training and trialing, conformation, temperament, different lines and pedigrees, and two and a half hours later decline purchasing the pup. 

Yeah, ok, that was mean.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I agree-glad you didn't "rescue" from there and support their little business. 

And also to give a call to AC just in case-depending on the AC and how good they are with people they may be able to educate a little. 

But I do think that if you have say two litters of 6 and sell 10 of them for $350, with minimal to no vetting, shots, worming, and very little work/time invested in them...that's $3500...and the other $500-so $4000 is pretty good money...

No?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I respectfully declined. As bad as I felt for those pups there was no way I could let myself take one home.


YAAAAAAYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!! 

Oh, I am so glad. THANK YOU on behalf of those of us who work constantly in the trenches trying to save even a few of the products of this kind of operation. People may feel like they're "saving" one of those puppies from that life but in the larger scale, what they're really doing is encouraging the continued production of more of the same - hard on the babies, hard on their parents, just bad all around. Among a million other things wrong with that situation - selling someone a pair of pups is a terrible idea and not something very many good breeders would consider. I would almost bet you money that those pups will end up in a shelter or bounced around before they're even a year old because they're "just too rambunctious!" or "just won't listen!" It takes really special handling to successfully raise a pair of pups and few of the people who buy pairs are willing or able to do it right.

This fellow may be the nicest guy in the world, but what he's doing hurts dogs







. The only way people like that are ever going to stop breeding is if they stop being able to sell their puppies. Thank you for doing the right thing and saying no.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Frankly, at $250/puppy, they are really not making enough money on puppies to make it worth while.


Sure they are. Breeding the *right* way is expensive. Breeding this way sure isn't. No training fees and show/trial entries, probably no health testing of any sort on the parents. No stud fee, no travel to the stud. Obviously minimal vet care in terms of worming, probably crap food and not enough of it, maybe no vaccinations. 2 females breeding at the same time, quite possibly every heat. No effort put into screening or educating buyers. Done that way, one can make pretty easy money... and unfortunately a lot do.









Dixie, I agree with the others THANK YOU for not supporting this sort of operation. I'm sure it must have been hard to walk away and not be tempted to "rescue" them all, but as has been mentioned it would only contribute to this sort of problem by encouraging it. I also agree that a call to AC can't hurt.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Sure they are. Breeding the *right* way is expensive. Breeding this way sure isn't


Exactly! Puppy mills net millions and yet the individual puppies are sold for very little. The big mark up comes when they get to the petstore. But when you don't spend much to care for the dogs or plan for the breeding, you don't have to charge much to make a profit.


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

Congratulations on NOT getting a puppy from this situation. You should check out our Urgent threads, there are many puppies in there who are vetted, ready for the taking, and if you get one, it's life will be saved all thanks to you!!! There are gorgeous purebred puppies up for adoption everywhere, every day! Check them out. You never know, you could find exactly what you want, and it could turn out to be the exact dog that you need!!!







Where are you located?


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## Dixie (May 17, 2005)

It seems like the friends/family I've spoken with tonight over the phone have been a little disappointed at my decision to not rescue one of the pups. It has been very hard for me to explain why I chose to walk away from them, all helpless and mud-caked. I'm afraid I've ended up sounding kind of selfish to some of the people I've talked to. It's as if I'm coming across like I WANTED to leave them in that situation by not taking one... Nevertheless I stand by my decision. Thank you all for your encouraging words.









My Baby Bella - I live in Stillwater, Oklahoma, but right now I'm back in my hometown of Fort Smith, Arkansas for my brother's wedding. I would love to speak with a rescue organization, but part of me thinks that they wouldn't see me as a good candidate because of the fact that I am a college student. Granted, I am pre-vet and a senior, but I think some people get a certain picture in their heads when they hear "college student." I spoke with someone who tried to go through the GSD Rescue of Tulsa, Oklahoma and apparently didn't have a very good experience.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

A lot of people think that would be "rescuing" but honestly - it's NOT. It just perpetuates the situation. If more people walked away like you did, there would be fewer of those places and those situations that dogs needed to be rescued from. You absolutely did the right thing! 

As far as adopting, I don't know anything about your local GSD group, but you might also try some all-breed groups. There are lots of places like mine who are technically all-breed rescues but who have specific members who are freaks for certain breeds. And rescuers tend to know each other and be pretty networked so even if the group you approach doesn't have a person like that, they may know another group who does. 

In terms of you as an adoption candidate - yes, some groups might hear college student and think not a good candidate because of bad experiences with other college students who didn't do all they said they would, but other people might be willing to listen and evaluate you as an individual. You can also go the direct adoption route either from a shelter or from someone on a site like Craigslist who is seeking to rehome a dog - if you go the latter route, be careful. There are a lot of people on there who are not any better than the guy tonight and are selling dogs under the pretense of a "rehoming fee" but there are others who are perfectly sincere.


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

There is an urgent section and a non-urgent section. The dogs who are in urgent are for the most part very easy to adopt. These are dogs/puppies who will die if not taken out of there. They hardly do any screen at all, some don't do any! I'd try my local shelters, animal control, humane society, ect.. There's almost always purebred GSDs in any given shelter, hah, it's very frustrating for all the rescues!! Just keep your eyes open, and I'm sure you'll find your perfect puppy!


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## girlll_face (Jun 9, 2009)

P.S. What about Safe Haven German Shepherd Rescue? It's in Mannford, Ok.
Also check out this young little guy in Perkins Animal Control Shelter...
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=14196694
There are a lot of Shepherd pups at OK Adopt a Dog; Look at this little baby;
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=14112539
Now THAT is a face! Hehe.








Like I said, just keep looking. You'll find your dog! I certainly did when I found Bella 3 months ago.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Yes, as the others said, thank you. I don't know where you are, but if you are in Texas you are required by law to have a "litter permit". You may want to check out the laws in the state you are at because many states are adopting laws like this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When you "rescue" from these places, that many more litters are bred, it is an incentive for them to continue. Please explain that you your family. If these people end up dropping the pups at a pound, then they will think about it before letting their bitches breed again.


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## CindyM (Mar 20, 2007)

It's frustrating trying to explain to people that don't understand... the people that are not involved everyday. I just want to say you made definitely the right choice!!! I don't understand why anyone would think it was selfish, when it was one of the most UNSELFISH things you could have done!

Also, if a rescue won't adopt to you, your local humane society or shelter still may. Whatever you choose, good luck!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Dixie, 

I know how you feel. I am a graduate student and when I was looking to add a Shepherd to my life I first tried to go through a local rescue group. They would not adopt out to me because I was under 25 years old and was a student. 

I have a job, I volunteer for a very well known cat rescue in TO and the most important thing; I have Shepherd experience (I grew up with them and my parents and I are still owned by our 12 year old girl). I passed all of their inital questionnaires, telephone interviews and when it came time for a meeting, they declined me because they found out I am a student.

I had been researching breeders (I was in contact with my current breeder for 4 years) and knew which one I wanted a pup from but I thought I would try rescuing instead. It happened for the best because I now have my trouble maker, I mean Stark..







but it was fustrating.

Good for you for sticking to your decision.

You will find the right fit sooner or later, it takes time and patience.

Good luck with your search.


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## Toffifay (Feb 10, 2007)

I'm glad you didn't opt to "rescue" one of those puppies. A friend of mine got a GSD this way, he is now 8 months old and not what I would want. He has no papers at all. She doesn't even know who the father is. He is obviously purebred, but he is definatley not out of working line GSD's, even though the breeder said that the father was a working K-9. He has some conformation faults, that may cause problems down the road and I find his temperament to be a little dull and fearful.
Another gal I know got a dog this way and he doesn't even appear to be a purebred GSD. I see some husky in him....again no papers.

There are so many AWESOME breeders on this forum!! I have a hard time looking at some of their "New Puppy" picture posts..for fear of calling them up!!


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## Dixie (May 17, 2005)

Well, I think I might have found a rescue! I am going to go meet him tomorrow. I am so excited! I made a post with a picture of him, the link is below









http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...646#Post1162646


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Congrats! He is gorgeous! I hope everything works out for you.


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## Alicia (May 9, 2009)

So glad you checked it out because those animals sound like they are in distress. Did you call AC yet? I hope that other lady was planning to take her new puppies straight to the vet!


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## Alicia (May 9, 2009)

I'll admit it. I did something similar when I bought my cattle dog. 

The difference was that the pups were truly distressed and the one I took home was nearly gone. I also reported them to AC. Yeah, they got my money but they also got an officer visiting them directly. The dogs were taken from them later. The reason I went there was that the father dog was a local legend as a working cattle dog. He had changed hands when his abusive owner went to prison for murder!! I think this was one of those occasions when the dog truly out-classed his owner.

The pup went straight to the vet (5 weeks old and they had already been weaned by the mother! Mama dog was really in no condition to nurse them.). BTW, the now five year old dog does have health problems including food allergies, PRA and digestive issues. However, her temperament is wonderful (as were her parents despite their sorry state) and she is kind to our baby son. *sigh* Never again, though.


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

When I read your initial post, I was going to reply the advice, DON"T GO! Ask whatever questions you have over the phone, but it's too dangerous to see the adorable pups cuz you could give way to impulse.
Too bad you had to see the conditions, but actually that was good it happened like that so you had reason not to succumb to puppy cuteness. 
Hope you find the right puppy soon. OFA & temperment. Don't fall for the wrong dog, it could mean years of vet bills & emotional suffering.


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