# Eva's alter ego.



## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and would really appreciate advice's and tips from all GSD owners. I am a first time GSD parent and had thus far have had no problems with my daughter, Eva (18 months now), until she starts displaying an aggressive alter ego.

I will try to elaborate from the time I bought her as a puppy hitherto.

I bought Eva when she was 12 weeks old from a breeder in Rayong (Central Thailand). I already have a male (22 pounds) neutered 10 year old Miniature American Eskimo, Simba (almost 12 now). 

Simba had been my only baby until Eva came along. He is a very loving and adorable boy but he never plays with other dogs or pets nor show any interest towards other animals. He's tolerant but can be aggressive when other dogs are too much in his face. Very loving towards people.

When Eva joined our household Simba accepted her but not once played with Eva the playful little pup.

I started training Eva with the basics commands which she excels in. I was then living in my Bangkok house in the very heart of the city. We had a front and back yard but we took both Eva and Simba to the only dog park almost everyday to socialize with other dogs and people.

Eva was a hyperactive little girl (the reason I picked her among the litters). She's very intelligent and had progress from verbal commands to also understand hand signals and gestures. She was doing great and socializes well with all dogs and people.

3 months later I bought 2 Shihtzus, Tia and Hotdog to be additional members of my family. Eva was a very good big sister to them, tolerating the 2 little ones with gentleness.

I thought it was all well and perfect so I bought a poodle, Look Jeen, to be our latest family member. Then Mocca, a Thai Bangkeaw Dog joins us as the youngest family member.

As I wanted them to have land to roam free, we moved to my estate in Northeastern Thailand. With acres of land and 2 ponds they were happy and free. All of them except for Simba (who remains aloof), will wrestle, tumble and swim daily. Our nearest neighbours are 2-3 kilometres away on all sides. 

Except for Simba, they will all roam my estate farther afield but never failed to come home, on their own reconnaissance or called.

I never leashed all my babies at our estate. Just a collar on each. They all have perfect recall.

First problem started when Mocca came home with a neighbour's prize fighting rooster in his mouth. Then it worsens, Tia was next, then Hotdog and finally Eva.

The first 3 incidents were bad enough as compensation had to be made. But Eva's incident was not just a killing but rather a rampage on someone else's property that police were called in.

I started fencing my estate and it temporarily solved the problem. Then Eva strikes again 

In Thailand, monks collects alms every morning but they had never come near our house as I had signs stating 'Beware of Dogs' at the entrance of our private road.

Well, Eva (16 months then) was not a guard dog material as she never barks at strangers though protective of us, so I thought. The guard dog duty falls upon Mocca, our TBD. Popular guard dogs amongst us Thais.

One morning I heard screams and rushed out the house to find Eva attacking a monk while Mocca attacks another. It was a traumatic and costly experience. It was an incident with much exaggeration on the monks part saying things like we trained our dogs to kill. 

Anyway, since monk's are revered here we decided to moved to our other house for some time, also in the Northeast but in a province well known for being the most dog friendly in Thailand. Dogs are allowed almost everywhere here.

All was well again until 4 weeks ago, Eva attacked Simba viciously. I had to grab on to him while he bit down and shakes Simba like a toy. My wife eventually prised her jaw opened with a metal spatula. It happened in our living room on the first floor. Simba suffered 2 puncture wounds just under his neck that required 3 stitches each.

Simba was hospitalised for a week. We did not anticipated another attack because when we brought Simba home, Eva was wagging her tail but 10 minutes later without any provocation, Eva attacked Simba again. This time around, Simba's got 2 puncture wounds and his neck was fractured. He was discharged from the hospital yesterday and still recuperating at home.

From the time we moved to this city, I took Eva along with the others to the park twice daily (2-3 hours each time). In between the time Eva had first attacked Simba, she had attacked a Siberian Husky, a Doberman and a Labrador at the park. The Siberian Husky was badly hurt while the others not serious though.

During the attack on the Husky she accidently bit me on my head when I dove to break them up. She was apologetic and kept licking my wound after the incident.

I almost forgot, when I bought Eva I had gathered some history of her mom and dad. Her dad is a big docile male but her mom had histories of aggressive behaviour and had once seriously attacked a vet while being treated. Also Eva's alter ego never barks or growl prior to an attack thus making her unpredictable.

Please...please! Can anyone help us to sort Eva out. Giving her away is not an option for us but we need her to be able to live with Simba again without fearing another attack on him, our other babies and other dogs or people in general. All advice's are greatly appreciated.

I apologize for the lengthy explanation to my predicament. Thanking all in advance!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

She is getting older and maturing. The first thing I would do is rule out anything medical. Full blood panel and exam. Some medical issues can cause aggressive behavior. Since this started all of the sudden, that is what I would do first.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This is quite a story: I think you should post some pictures of your dogs.


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## shantinath1000 (Mar 18, 2014)

I would strongly suggest that none of the dogs be out of the house and off leash with out direct supervision. There are to many factors that can cause problems - and some have nothing to do with you or the dog.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

I am sorry but some of this is complete and utter negligence...

Your dogs should not be roaming free without a fence to your property..
I see you finally put up a fence...

How did the monk get attacked? Did he illegally enter private property? Did he Jump the fence?

As for the dog attacking your other dogs.. The intervening dog needs to be isolated and separated from the other dogs. Some professional advice and training might help. A dog that strikes without any prior warning.. i.e. growling etc.. Is the most dangerous kind..


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I'm sorry but MOST of this is total negligence. You accumulated dogs, did not involve a trainer and left them to their own devices running free. When they do what "free" untrained and supervised dogs do, ie. Killing rampage of local livestock, you come here to find out how to fix but not until after they attacked and seriously hurt 2 human beings while running free and unsupervised. 
You failed your dog's, they did not fail you. You had zero common sense to keep them separate after a fight that caused injuries requiring vet visit. Allowed that poor dog to be attacked again and now with serious injuries.
You should keep all dogs separate and leashed at all times until you can bring a very reputable trainer into your home to assess the whole operation and where and how to start training. If your not dedicated and willing to put a lot of work and effort into these dogs, rehome them with someone who will. Your very fortunate you were not forced to have the 2 put to sleep after attacking 2 people. Take control of this situation and get help NOW. Eva is a dog is not your daughter and should not be treated as a person.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some dog breeds, like Fox hounds tend to be pack animals, tend to do very well in a large pack. Other dog breeds have a different idea of what a pack ought to be. And yes, you have a pack. 

Your dogs are no longer simply pets or your furry children, they are a pack of dogs. They say, two's company, three's a pack. And dynamics are different in a pack. You are not part of the pack. Don't go trying to be some sort of pack-leader, your dogs are smarter than that, they know you have two legs and control the food bins. 

Running loose together, your dogs have made their own hierarchy. And dogs that are close in status, are much more likely to tussel. And yes, I am talking bloody wounds. The young bitch is becoming an adult, and she wants to rule the roost. The older eskimo things that is his position and he is not going quietly. 

The dogs are roaming freely over land that is pack-property. Intruders beware. Big liability. Dogs should not have that much freedom. Sorry. They shouldn't be deciding where they will go, and for how long, and what they should do today. Because they will find things to do. And, those things are going to probably be expensive. 

With some dogs, you could probably never have a problem. Dog roams the neighborhood and escorts the neighborhood kids too and from the bus stop. Everyone loves him, and he never puts a toe out of line. Well, that is a fairy tale dog. I am sure people remember a dog like that, but it is always, someone else's dog they are telling you about. And that perception is often just what they remember. It is an ideal that kicks around in our head when we think about what we want our dog to be like. But it isn't all dogs, and it isn't most dogs. 

The reality is that GSDs are not typical pack-dogs like hounds. They can become very territorial given little to no limits and boundaries. They are intelligent, which is not synonymous with being good, obedient dogs that never put a toe out of line. What that actually does is that the dog is always doing something. And some of those things are things we do not want them to do. 

Whether the GSD started the thing with the monks or just pitched in and helped out her pack mate, there were two of them, and after the one dog attacked, their was probably yelling and craziness, and a lot of GSDs really don't like craziness. We call them the Fun Police for a reason. 

6 or 7 dogs roaming free, swimming in the pond, eating the neighbor's chickens, attacking a few monks -- well it understandable, given the lack of supervision, limits, boundaries, etc.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

What if those monks had been children.....


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

I wonder if he is trolling us...

2 monks... A fighting rooster... Two houses in Thailand...

Sounds pretty interesting to say the least...

Jokes aside... Property, other animals, humans, and the dogs lives are all in danger... 

As is a major law suite...

Like everyone said. 

1) Fence the dogs immediately in an enclosure.
2) Seperate the dog that is being aggressive and attacking, the other dogs.
3) Get professional help from a good trainer.

Do this Immediately... In fact do it Yesterday


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

She is maturing, as are her drives. Where she may have been OK with smaller animals as a puppy, she many not be any more (even smaller dogs). She needs to be managed, at least for now. I think you have accumulated a lot of dogs in a short period of time and need to give yourself more time to learn the true temperaments of each dog and how to manage them so that they are not attacking each other or other animals. Eva does not need a large estate to roam, she will need direction and leadership from you as well as daily interaction that exercises her mind and body. I am not at all surprised at the outcome, reading your story. She sounds like a wonderful dog (to her owners) that has too much space and freedom and that is how accidents and attacks happen. How do you exercise her and train her? How much time are people spending with her, making sure her needs are met (as well as the other dogs, individually)?


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

llombardo said:


> She is getting older and maturing. The first thing I would do is rule out anything medical. Full blood panel and exam. Some medical issues can cause aggressive behavior. Since this started all of the sudden, that is what I would do first.


Thank you! Sound advice. Will take your advice and taking her to the vet for a medical. Thanks again.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

BowWowMeow said:


> This is quite a story: I think you should post some pictures of your dogs.


I would love to post their pictures! I'm not savvy with navigating the functions as how to do that. Nonetheless, will find out how to do it. Thanks!


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

shantinath1000 said:


> I would strongly suggest that none of the dogs be out of the house and off leash with out direct supervision. There are to many factors that can cause problems - and some have nothing to do with you or the dog.


Noted! They are all leashed each time we leave the house. Btw, my wife and I were always supervising though I have to admit that we overlook other factors. Thank you.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> I am sorry but some of this is complete and utter negligence...
> 
> Your dogs should not be roaming free without a fence to your property..
> I see you finally put up a fence...
> ...


Don't be sorry, and I admit to being negligent in exercising safety. However, please know that we do not neglect our dogs in terms of their health, comfort and little luxuries that we accorded them.

Pertaining to the issue of having professional trainers, we live in the Northeastern part of Thailand and there are zero professional trainers here. That's our problem


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> I am sorry but some of this is complete and utter negligence...
> 
> Your dogs should not be roaming free without a fence to your property..
> I see you finally put up a fence...
> ...


In answer to your questions, 1. The monks were attacked about 20 meters into our property. 2. It was an illegal entry. They entered via my unlocked side gate without prior informing us.

However, please note that professional courtesies amongst rural Thai people are complicated. Monk's are also highly revered here and shan't be turned away when they come for alms collection. The notion that it might endanger them was loss in my case, as I have signs clearly stating to beware of dogs.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Saphire said:


> I'm sorry but MOST of this is total negligence. You accumulated dogs, did not involve a trainer and left them to their own devices running free. When they do what "free" untrained and supervised dogs do, ie. Killing rampage of local livestock, you come here to find out how to fix but not until after they attacked and seriously hurt 2 human beings while running free and unsupervised.
> You failed your dog's, they did not fail you. You had zero common sense to keep them separate after a fight that caused injuries requiring vet visit. Allowed that poor dog to be attacked again and now with serious injuries.
> You should keep all dogs separate and leashed at all times until you can bring a very reputable trainer into your home to assess the whole operation and where and how to start training. If your not dedicated and willing to put a lot of work and effort into these dogs, rehome them with someone who will. Your very fortunate you were not forced to have the 2 put to sleep after attacking 2 people. Take control of this situation and get help NOW. Eva is a dog is not your daughter and should not be treated as a person.


Firstly, I do thank you for your advice and input. I do agree for being pointed out as negligent but to a certain extent.

Yes, I do accumulate dogs. However, do note that I had Simba for almost 12 years now. I gave him obedience training and he's a balance and healthy boy.

The incidents pertaining to Eva was unpredicted. When we moved from our Bangkok home to live in the northeast was for their best interest at heart. I thought it would be nice for them to roam free on our property. 

The 2 monks that were attacked had actually illegally encroached our property. The attack happened after I had my property fenced immediately following the killing of the neighbour's livestock's. Thus, I do have common sense and I'm not here for a quick fix but to sought advice from esteemed GSD owners not for a bashing.

Eva was trained by me, yes. I am not a professional but I love dogs and I had indeed read quite a fair bit on dog trainings. Can't you understand the progression I had made in training her? She had progressed from verbal, clicker to gestures in command. 

I am here because I lacked experience with a GSD not due to irresponsibility nor for the lack of sense.

There are no professional trainers here in the northeast of Thailand. The closest thing I found is an army canine unit that trains wardogs. I'm worried that it would exarcebates Eva's aggression.

I am a dedicated dog owner... Please do not question that! I am 24/7 with my dogs...yes, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I train, play and care for them. 

Eva's timeline of first attack (2 month ago), incidents and unanticipated attacks recently has been 5 weeks now.

I am more than diligent as diligent can be. The main problem is Eva's very obedient and docile but as history showed she could snap without first exhibiting a nary of a clue. She doesn't growl or bark and that's what is worrying.

Thank you for your input.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Saphire said:


> What if those monks had been children.....


Same situation. Do you note that we moved to our other house in the nearest province? Well, that's our compromise. Even though the monks were on property illegally. You just can't win over a monk, it's taboo here. 

But that's our least concern, the priorities are the recent escalation in Eva's aggressive alter ego.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Eva's Dad said:


> Firstly, I do thank you for your advice and input. I do agree for being pointed out as negligent but to a certain extent.
> 
> Yes, I do accumulate dogs. However, do note that I had Simba for almost 12 years now. I gave him obedience training and he's a balance and healthy boy.
> 
> ...


You are supervising your dogs, but 3 separate incidents happened with neighbor's livestock. And, then the monks were attacked by two of your dogs. Ok, they were on your property and ignored your signs. Normally, I would say, fine, dogs went after intruders. Except that you said they were supervised. Doesn't matter. If the dogs are trained, then, a LEAVE IT, should stop dogs from attacking people. So it seems like on at least four occasions the dogs were not supervised. Or they are not trained. 

Now for the bolded. Dogs show clues when they are uncomfortable in a situation, and when they are ready to attack. Usually, it is pretty overt like barking, growling, snarling, snapping, etc. If they do not do these things, the question becomes, why? Was your dog punished for growling in the past? 

There is another possibility, and that is rage syndrome which some believe is related to epilepsy. Usually you can see it in the dog's eyes before they attack. And often it is a family member that is hurt/bitten due to the rage syndrome.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> I wonder if he is trolling us...
> 
> 2 monks... A fighting rooster... Two houses in Thailand...
> 
> ...


Nope! Not a troll. 

The monks, the roosters (I had in fact, typed 'fighting cocks' but it was auto deleted. Thus, substitiuted it with 'rooster'). My neighbour breeds prize fighting cocks, fyi. 

I do own 7 houses all over Thailand. I don't mean it boastfully, I am just a lucky landowner's son who inherited everything when he passed.

1. Done (But we moved out of our estate after the monks attack as a compromise and not cause further inconveniences for the time being). Thai culture is complicated.

2. Eva's has been separated from Simba as of the second attack. Should have done it after the first, idiot me!

3. No professional help available here


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

selzer said:


> You are supervising your dogs, but 3 separate incidents happened with neighbor's livestock. And, then the monks were attacked by two of your dogs. Ok, they were on your property and ignored your signs. Normally, I would say, fine, dogs went after intruders. Except that you said they were supervised. Doesn't matter. If the dogs are trained, then, a LEAVE IT, should stop dogs from attacking people. So it seems like on at least four occasions the dogs were not supervised. Or they are not trained.
> 
> Now for the bolded. Dogs show clues when they are uncomfortable in a situation, and when they are ready to attack. Usually, it is pretty overt like barking, growling, snarling, snapping, etc. If they do not do these things, the question becomes, why? Was your dog punished for growling in the past?
> 
> There is another possibility, and that is rage syndrome which some believe is related to epilepsy. Usually you can see it in the dog's eyes before they attack. And often it is a family member that is hurt/bitten due to the rage syndrome.


1. Guilty! The first 3 killings on the neighbour's livestock were unsupervised. My estate is 3 acres and there are trees and undergrowth on it. At times, I couldn't see them as I potter around the house or fishing in my ponds and the idiot me believed that they would never go as far into the neighbour's property much less the killings.

I had it fenced up after the third killings of livestock. Now my estate sticks out like a sore thumb with the fencing because Thai's do not fence their land (It's seen as arrogance and unfriendly). Though we are currently not staying at that house. 

2. The monks were attacked 20 meters upon entering my private road, it's almost 250 more to my house. It was 5.15 in the morning and I was sitting on my porch just about to have my coffee. I had just let them out of the house as I did every morning. (Yes, they all sleeps in the house.)

3. This is the main problem! There are no signs or clues. Absolutely nothing! 

We had Eva when we living in Bangkok, it was gated. When she started to bark (6 months old) at anyone that passes by, I squirted her with water as I had read that it doesn't hurt but makes her uncomfortable enough to stop barking.

It works after a week! She stops barking and would just look. I thought it was a great disciplining tool. Yes, I did it even before she starts to bark at the initial growl when I anticipated her barking. That's the extend of my punishment. Water squirts.

This 'RAGE SYNDROME', can a vet identify it? So far she has never displayed aggression towards my wife and I or towards our maids.

Thank you


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

selzer said:


> Some dog breeds, like Fox hounds tend to be pack animals, tend to do very well in a large pack. Other dog breeds have a different idea of what a pack ought to be. And yes, you have a pack.
> 
> Your dogs are no longer simply pets or your furry children, they are a pack of dogs. They say, two's company, three's a pack. And dynamics are different in a pack. You are not part of the pack. Don't go trying to be some sort of pack-leader, your dogs are smarter than that, they know you have two legs and control the food bins.
> 
> ...


Thank you, your input was very insightful. Now I understand that I have a pact of dogs, I had always seen them as individual members of my family.

How do my wife and I change our daily routines to adapt and control our pack of babies?


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Liesje said:


> She is maturing, as are her drives. Where she may have been OK with smaller animals as a puppy, she many not be any more (even smaller dogs). She needs to be managed, at least for now. I think you have accumulated a lot of dogs in a short period of time and need to give yourself more time to learn the true temperaments of each dog and how to manage them so that they are not attacking each other or other animals. Eva does not need a large estate to roam, she will need direction and leadership from you as well as daily interaction that exercises her mind and body. I am not at all surprised at the outcome, reading your story. She sounds like a wonderful dog (to her owners) that has too much space and freedom and that is how accidents and attacks happen. How do you exercise her and train her? How much time are people spending with her, making sure her needs are met (as well as the other dogs, individually)?


Foremost, thank you for the input and learned advise.

In answer to your questions, here's my routine:

1. I let Eva out of the house every morning at 5.45 to our front yard. Once she had moved her bowels and calm, I will let out Mocca, Tia, Hot and Look Been out too. (Simba's recuperating thus he did his business in his room on the 3rd floor for now.)

They would all pee, poop and after which would wrestle and tumble a bit then would all find their own spots to lie down. I would feed them then have my breakfast.

2. At 7 am they would all get into the SUV and we go to the park about 2 kilometers from my home. 

3. I would walk around the 5 kilometers park perimeter. Eva and Mocca on leash while the rest without. (Prior to the attack on other dogs, I did not leashed them both.)

4. We enter the grounds of the park and I will unleashed both Eva and Mocca to play and run between half an hour to an hour.

5. We are normally home by 9 - 9.15. All of them will be going to their respective place in the house to lie down and just being good dogs.

6. At 11.30, our maids will prepare their meals while I well spent 15 - 20 minutes reinforcing basic commands and training with both Eva and Mocca individually.

7. Lunch at noon. After which they were given their toys to play on their own. 

They are free to move in and out of the house. Except we don't allow Eva to the 3rd floor of the house anymore after she attacked Simba. It's barricaded now.

8. At 4 pm, I again reinforces Eva and Mocca's basic obedience commands. (15 - 20 minutes) Alternate days.

9. 4.30 to the park again. No walking the perimeter but to play in the park grounds. Fetch, tug of war and just wrestle with them.

At 5, there would normally be around 30 - 50 owners with their babies in the park. All kinds of breeds, from Alaskan Malamute to Chihuahua. Most of them unleashed.

The dogs will play and socialize with each other.

10. 6 pm, we head for home. 

11. 7 pm, dinner and all will be in the house henceforth.

12. 9.30, let out to the front yard to pee and back in.

End of the day.

That's our routine for the last 2 months since we moved here. 

Please advice me on how to improve and resolve Eva's issues. Thank you


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

Eva's Dad said:


> 3. This is the main problem! There are no signs or clues. Absolutely nothing!
> 
> We had Eva when we living in Bangkok, it was gated. When she started to bark (6 months old) at anyone that passes by, I squirted her with water as I had read that it doesn't hurt but makes her uncomfortable enough to stop barking.
> 
> It works after a week! She stops barking and would just look. I thought it was a great disciplining tool. Yes, I did it even before she starts to bark at the initial growl when I anticipated her barking. That's the extend of my punishment. Water squirts.


By squirting her when she barked and growled, you taught her to not growl and bark before striking. 

Do not think of adult dogs as 'babies'. They are dogs (and I am glad they are). Thinking of them as babies doesn't recognize who they are, and recognizing others for who they are is the basis of love. And it makes you blind to the potential of aggression that adult dogs of a protective breed must have to be true to their breed. 

Regarding the attack on your senior dog. There are always signs of a rank attack before. Not necessarily before the actual bite but in the weeks and months before. I suggest you study photos and films of dog behavior. I can provide some links later.

I wouldn't want to be in the position of your senior dog. He seems to have been the only dog for ten years and now has to cope with the rapid addition of half a dozen youngsters vying for rank.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

I hold what I said before... But you took reasonable action.

I agree the monks entered the property illegally.. they should have never been there..

To the people stating the dog should know the 'leave it' command... These things happen very quickly... And most normal Pet owners do not extensively train their dogs.. Not to mention a dog in the process of attacking might need a very good leave it command.

I dont want to make assumptions...

But from what you are posting here, you seem to be extremely wealthy...

If you have the resources I would have a locking gate.. Or a remote control gate... Maybe even an electric fence/barbed wire... (not for dogs, for people... i.e. at the top).

Or maybe even gate up the dogs at the back yard so to speak and not in the driveway...

I think there is a lot you can do from a management of property point of view.

I have never had an aggressive dog my entire life... I think there are specific challenges... Again resources allowing I would try contact professional help.. If there is none in tailand, I would look for an international trainer and deal with him through Skype....

This DVD may also help: Leerburg On Demand | Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive Dogs Commercial


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Are any of your dogs intact? Reproductive hormones in this situation could be escalating aggression. 

I applaud you for recognizing the problem and taking steps to correct it. But you have, as you know, a pretty big issue. And my guess is that it is not only the GSD. 

Structure is going to be your friend. Eva, should be tethered to you or your wife and your other big dog should be tethered to the other spouse. 

Look up NILF, implement with every dog in the house. I know you love them, but they are not humans. They are dogs who need solid rules and boundaries. 

While I can't speak to the availability of trainers, I know that Thailand has at least one search and rescue team. A distant friend went over and helped them train and certify. Of course, Thailand is a big country, so they may be far from you. I would also look into the police dog trainer you mentioned. There is no reason you need to teach your dog protection or bite work, but they may be able to help you with control and more advanced obedience, or put you in contact with someone who can. 

You seem to have the means, so it may be feasible to bring someone to you for a bit to help.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your dog learned not to give any sign that she was uncomfortable, to by-pass the amenities and get right down to business. I am not a fan of squirting a dog with water, but for your dog, this stopped her early warning signals. 

Now your dog is too dangerous to give to anyone else. She is your responsibility. And you need to learn to manage her properly. The good news is that she can be, and money does not seem to be an obstacle. 

It sounds like you have a good dog, but you are making some rookie mistakes. You think dogs need 3 acres or more to run around in. They do not. Instead of fencing your whole property. Fence 20'x40' in your back yard alone. Then train your dogs that they can ONLY exit through the back door. No access at all to your front door. 

You can have a patio in your fenced area, and hang out with the dogs. But when the dogs go in the rest of the property, they need to be leashed. 

If your dogs attack another person or critter, you can be facing the government taking this out of your hands. Handing your dog over to be euthanized is a nightmare I don't want anyone to have to manage. Instead, make the few changes and give the dog some structure. Train her regularly. Walk her on lead. In your fenced area give her some good exercise throwing the ball. Every day. Get into a routine where you train her to Leave it, etc. Train her to recall back to you. Train her to work on lead and off lead. No more unsupervised time unless it is in a solid kennel/solid fenced area. Doesn't have to be huge. 

If you have concrete on the base, 10' x 15' is ok for times you cannot supervise, but larger is ok too. I like 15 x 25 for a nice sized kennel. And I like for it to be located within a fenced yard. 

Good luck with your dog. Be happy. It does NOT sound like rage syndrome.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

RunShepherdRun said:


> By squirting her when she barked and growled, you taught her to not growl and bark before striking.
> 
> Do not think of adult dogs as 'babies'. They are dogs (and I am glad they are). Thinking of them as babies doesn't recognize who they are, and recognizing others for who they are is the basis of love. And it makes you blind to the potential of aggression that adult dogs of a protective breed must have to be true to their breed.
> 
> ...


Thank you, for your perspectives toward my predicaments. I supposed the 'squirting' had somehow contributed to Eva's predisposition of not giving any clues or signs that I can anticipate before she attacks. Are there any methods on which I can reverse this?

To be honest, both my wife and I are still struggling to see them as simply pets or dogs. They have been our children and we are both mommy and daddy to them. 

But we realised now that's it's not in their best interest and could actually be detrimental to their behaviour. We are working towards changing that dynamics in our lives.

Pertaining to the attack on Simba by Eva, there actually were a few incidents that occurred. But it was far and few in between. On all occassions, it was Simba that attacks all of them. 

He had bitten them more than once but I would like to add that Simba is not an aggressive boy. He is aloof or indifferent towards them. He doesn't play nor wants to have anything to do with them since they were puppies. He normally growls when they are too much in his face and we intervened in time, well, most times anyway. He also claims our bedroom and the whole floor on where it was in all our houses. He never allows any of them near.

All of them acceded to him. Except that now Eva had attacked him. 

Now, we see things from a different light. Once again, thank you for opening our eyes with your learned advises. Would appreciate those links you mentioned.

Thank you.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> I hold what I said before... But you took reasonable action.
> 
> I agree the monks entered the property illegally.. they should have never been there..
> 
> ...


Foremost, thank you. But we are not 'extremely wealthy' as you might think, just a little bit more privileged. I'm 46 and had been retired for 6 years now, my wife's 33 and she's pursuing higher learning. We have been married for 5 years.

I don't mean to publicize our personal infos but rather would want to know if it actually contributed any adverse effects that caused our predicaments.

I was once told when I started accumulating 'dogs' that it was a 'midlife crisis' (some buy a sports car...etc.) and I buy dogs as a means to cope with it. It wasn't so.

My wife and I were not blessed to have children, it's a certainty. Thus, our 'dogs' completed our family nucleus. I'm not sure if this is a screwed up mentality to have. But what we both know without a doubt are, we love dogs to bits. Perhaps a little over indulgent which now I saw to be detrimental.

Having an electric/barbed fencing for our estate cannot be done due to culture indiferrence here in Thailand. It would be seen as arrogance on our part. Thai culture is complicated  In fact, just fencing it up after the livestock killings had mouths wagging.

Our other houses are electronically gated and walled. But we will be constructing a fence to separate the backyard from our frontyard and driveway, as per your advised.

Thank you for going out of your way to help us. We really appreciate it. We had also contacted some so called 'professional trainers' but they are all in Bangkok and none would be able to accommodate travelling back and forth 670 km to our home now. They also cannot do it fulltime as they have other commitments 

One question, how do I ascertain the 'professional trainer's' qualifications other than on paper? It's Thailand, thus it could be forged. I'm not surprised if it was indeed.

There is also another problem, the training and commands are in Thai language  My dogs were trained by me in English, as it's my first language even though I'm Thai. (I'm born and schooled in England.)

Once again, thank you. Will be watching the video links you sent today  Bless you!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When we think of our critters as our children, we really are opening the door to giving them human values, morals, emotions, expectations. They are dogs. Dogs have a complex system of values, morals, emotions, and we can have expectations for them that are appropriate for dogs. But we have to remember that they are dog-values, dog-morals, dog-emotions. The fact that many of them we can relate to their human counterparts is probably why dogs and people have enjoyed living side by side for centuries. 

But we have to make sure the line does not get fuzzy. Remember that the dog will truly enjoy killing a chicken, or rolling on a dead toad. And they will tolerate, for our sake, having a Santa hat or reindeer antlers affixed to their head. 

Dogs feel a range of emotions that are somewhat similar to a child's between the ages of 2 and 6. They feel a form of grief, adoration, anticipation, anger, jealousy, among others. Their emotions are raw and deep. They can let their emotions get them into trouble. The jealousy can become resource guarding and can cause some serious fights to break out. 

We do not instill our values and moral structure into our dogs. We might train them not to attack little dogs, but we are not teaching them that they might hurt a small dog and that wouldn't be fair, and how would they like a larger individual to attack them, and so forth, like we might with children. Their value system is set by their instinct. Some of them are driven to be the number one dog, and some are driven to be followers. Some will do anything for a tid-bit, and others are not very motivated by food. Some have play drives and will value their ball above food and chews. I have a dog that can go everywhere with me, and sleep on my bed, and sits loyally by my side quietly... while I am eating. Once I finish, she either gets to lick the plate or not, and either way, she then stalks off to the bedroom to lie on my bed. She does not value being by my side, she values my leftovers. And once that is taken care of, being by my side no longer holds any appeal at all. She is a dog. Her value system is certainly not hard to define. And when I work within it, I can make her a superstar. 

There was an article kicking around about dog-morals. Personally, I don't really think they have morals. I think they can be obedient and very perceptive of what will please their owner, and they may be a dog that really wants to please, but if they have a moral structure, it really is not even close to any human moral code. 

When we apply human morals, values, and expectations on dogs, generally get enough positive responses, indicators that are dog is sweet to small dogs or puppies, or shows deference to an elderly dog, that when our dog fails to maintain a moral code that is not canine, is not his, then we may tend to take it personally.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Are any of your dogs intact? Reproductive hormones in this situation could be escalating aggression.
> 
> I applaud you for recognizing the problem and taking steps to correct it. But you have, as you know, a pretty big issue. And my guess is that it is not only the GSD.
> 
> ...


Firstly, thank you for your learned input.

Well, I agree it could not only be a problem with Eva. Yes, we are trying to inculcate more structure with my pack. 

During our morning routine to the park today, Eva and Mocca our TBD were leashed. Though there were resistances by both.

I will definitely look up NILF and implement it as deemed fit. Yes, we were over indulgent with them and had spoilt them. But we now saw how foregoing limits and boundaries were detrimental to their behaviours.

Checked with the 'professional trainers' but to no avail due to geographical location. None willing to travel back and forth 670 km from Bangkok to our home for it. Not due to fiscal means but rather because of their other commitments.

Considering the Police Training but there's one obstacle, it's done in Thai language. Eva's trained in English as it's my first language, though I'm Thai. Also, they need her to be left in their care for 3 months. We are unsure we could part with her that long though daily visitations are allowed.

My question is, would it have any adverse effects toward her behaviour upon reintegration with my pack after the course?

Thanks again. Bless you


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

:hug:


gsdsar said:


> Are any of your dogs intact? Reproductive hormones in this situation could be escalating aggression.
> 
> I applaud you for recognizing the problem and taking steps to correct it. But you have, as you know, a pretty big issue. And my guess is that it is not only the GSD.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I missed answering your first question.

Only Simba is neutered. The rest of the pack are intact


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

selzer said:


> Your dog learned not to give any sign that she was uncomfortable, to by-pass the amenities and get right down to business. I am not a fan of squirting a dog with water, but for your dog, this stopped her early warning signals.
> 
> Now your dog is too dangerous to give to anyone else. She is your responsibility. And you need to learn to manage her properly. The good news is that she can be, and money does not seem to be an obstacle.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Sir/Ma'am. 

Duly noted! Regretted the 'water squirts' punishment. Can it be reverse? In retrospect, we prefer her to bark or growl now and show us some signs instead of being silent and unpredictable.

It worries us to no end now because we just can't anticipate it. We were at the park this morning and yes, we had both Eva and Mocca on leash, some of her little furry friends came over unleashed and started to jump and play with her and I can feel that she wanted to be unleash too, but my fear that she could snap into her alter ego and attack, stopped me.

Even while leashed she could still get to any of them. Thus I'm on the edge each time the little ones came to play. Would muzzling her be a good idea? I had already bought one.

Yes, she's my absolute responsibility. All of them are, indeed. Thus we appreciated all input and guidance from esteemed members of the GSD community like yourself.

We are starting to have a fence separating our backyard from the frontyard and driveway constructed at our current home now. Will heed your advise and let them out only via the back door.

Will also be building a fence up pen at the back of our house on the estate as per your guidance. A fence within a fence doesn't seem a bad idea. No more unsupervised time roaming free on the estate when we move to live there in summer.

Would a concrete base be better as compared to earth? And would it be too much to ask if you could somehow draw us a structured training daily routine to follow? My day starts at 5.30 am everyday and other than pottering around the house gardening, reading and tinkering, I'm all for them, well, both my wife and I are  We are asleep by 10.30 pm most days.

Thank you, once again. Bless you!


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

selzer said:


> When we think of our critters as our children, we really are opening the door to giving them human values, morals, emotions, expectations. They are dogs. Dogs have a complex system of values, morals, emotions, and we can have expectations for them that are appropriate for dogs. But we have to remember that they are dog-values, dog-morals, dog-emotions. The fact that many of them we can relate to their human counterparts is probably why dogs and people have enjoyed living side by side for centuries.
> 
> But we have to make sure the line does not get fuzzy. Remember that the dog will truly enjoy killing a chicken, or rolling on a dead toad. And they will tolerate, for our sake, having a Santa hat or reindeer antlers affixed to their head.
> 
> ...


Wow! Thank you.

I have read quite a fair bit about dog behaviours in my quest to be a responsible owner. At times, it's equally confusing and contradictary too, thus the mistakes I had made (e.g. water squirts and etc.)

But nothing compares to what you had taken the tenuous effort to write and impart to put it into my perspectives. I applaud you, sir/ma'am. Kudos!

There's really alot for me to learn from you. Thank you for the enlightenment. I have always held on the the beliefs that educated does not necessarily means learned. You sir/ma'am is certainly without a doubt BOTH educated and learned.

Thank you!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

I'll suggest that what training you've done has not addressed these issues either directly or indirectly. Usually I'm slow to suggest the Ecollar but since you tell us that you've done clicker training, I'll do so now. Do not think that I'm advocating that you get an Ecollar and press the button when the dog does something that you don't like. Nothing could be further from the truth. The training that you've done does not have any way to tell a dog, "I don't want you to do that again." I suggest that you follow the advice on my site to train the recall and the sit. When you do this, many of the problems that you're having just disappear. If you'd like to hear my theory on why this happens, I'll go into it, but suffice it to say at this time, that many people report that it happens. 

My website gives directions for dog training beginners to use the Ecollar if you decide to look at that option. The web address is in my signature line.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Eva's Dad said:


> In answer to your questions, 1. The monks were attacked about 20 meters into our property. 2. * It was an illegal entry. They entered via my unlocked side gate without prior informing us. *


I can't speak to the law in Thailand, but in most parts of the world it's completely legal to enter private property via a unlocked gate to speak to the property owner. Mail carriers, delivery men, UPS, FedEx, meter readers, repair men, government representatives AND those who spread the word of their religion, and others, do it millions of times a day. If the gate is far from the home, and you've not provided them some way to get your attention to gain permission to enter the property, they have no choice but to open the gate and walk up to your door. 

Had you locked the gate, they probably never would have entered. 



Eva's Dad said:


> However, please note that professional courtesies amongst rural Thai people are complicated. Monk's are also highly revered here and shan't be turned away when they come for alms collection. The notion that it might endanger them was loss in my case, as I have signs clearly stating to beware of dogs.


Signs warning them of the dogs are not sufficient in many areas. Other steps need to be taken to protect the public, in the US locked gates are one way to do this.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lykoz said:


> I hold what I said before... But you took reasonable action.
> 
> I agree the monks entered the property illegally.. they should have never been there..


I don't think that this entry was illegal, but I don't know the law in Thailand. Especially since the gate was unlocked and the custom in this part of the world, is for such people to collect alms regularly. But it's a small point since the gate was not secured. I'm not a big. "it's for the children" kinda guy, but the point is well taken. Children are not going to be deterred by warning signs, heck, they may not even be able to read them. 



Lykoz said:


> To the people stating the dog should know the 'leave it' command... These things happen very quickly... And most normal Pet owners do not extensively train their dogs.. Not to mention a dog in the process of attacking might need a very good leave it command.


I've always thought that if one owns a dog that has the temperament to bite a human being in the defense of himself or his property, that some bite training be done. If not, the dog will make up his own mind when a bite is appropriate. A dog that's been through such training will learn that a bite is only appropriate under a limited set of circumstances, and what's vitally important is that he'll be taught a command to stop him from biting. 



Lykoz said:


> I think there is a lot you can do from a management of property point of view.


A common sense approach. Now that you know that your dogs will bite what they perceive to be intruders, you must protect the public from them. 



Lykoz said:


> This DVD may also help: Leerburg On Demand | Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive Dogs Commercial


This is the last place that I'd look for advice on this issue. This video salesman thinks that almost all aggression in dogs comes from dominance, when in fact, in most dogs it comes from fear and insecurity. I have not seen this video, but based on its title, he comes from this place in it. ** rest removed, bashing**

My site contains instructions for a protocol that has had great success in stopping the kind of predatory behavior that your dogs exhibited with the neighbor's chickens. It's also worked for the dog to dog aggression that you described. It works at the lowest level of stim that the dog can feel.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Eva's Dad said:


> Thank you, your input was very insightful. Now I understand that I have a pact of dogs, I had always seen them as individual members of my family.
> 
> * How do my wife and I change our daily routines to adapt and control our pack of babies? *


Perhaps it's just slang, but they are not babies. They are dogs and can only communicate as they do with other dogs.  SEE THIS ARTICLE.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> Your dog learned not to give any sign that she was uncomfortable, to by-pass the amenities and get right down to business. I am not a fan of squirting a dog with water, but for your dog, this stopped her early warning signals.


Unless one is dealing with a VERY sensitive dog, this inhibits the aggression, but I've never known it to completely shut off the warning signs of aggression. Poor use of an Ecollar CAN do this, but it has to do with the level of pain that some people will use and the fact that it "seems to come out of the blue." I'm not saying that it's impossible for this to happen, just that it's very rare. 

It's rare that the average pet owner (whatever that means) is able to see the early signs of aggression. And it's rarer still, that they're able to interrupt them.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Eva's Dad said:


> One question, how do I ascertain the 'professional trainer's' qualifications other than on paper? It's Thailand, thus it could be forged. I'm not surprised if it was indeed.


I think the best way to find a good trainer is by word of mouth. Talk to his former clients. Many have testimonials on their websites. Good ones will allow you to contact their previous clients directly (if those clients have given their permission – Most of mine have).


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Eva's Dad said:


> :hug:
> 
> Sorry, I missed answering your first question.
> 
> *Only Simba is neutered. The rest of the pack are intact*


So how are you going to keep them from reproducing?

I agree, you need to realize these are animals and they are dogs, and not babies or children, and you are their owner, not their mother and father.

I highly recommend you research this forum for recommended books on dog behavior.
They are canids, not primates, and therefore communicate and behave differently. If you love dogs so much, you owe it to them to understand them and provide for their needs.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> I'll suggest that what training you've done has not addressed these issues either directly or indirectly. Usually I'm slow to suggest the Ecollar but since you tell us that you've done clicker training, I'll do so now. Do not think that I'm advocating that you get an Ecollar and press the button when the dog does something that you don't like. Nothing could be further from the truth. The training that you've done does not have any way to tell a dog, "I don't want you to do that again." I suggest that you follow the advice on my site to train the recall and the sit. When you do this, many of the problems that you're having just disappear. If you'd like to hear my theory on why this happens, I'll go into it, but suffice it to say at this time, that many people report that it happens.
> 
> My website gives directions for dog training beginners to use the Ecollar if you decide to look at that option. The web address is in my signature line.


Thank you, Lou!

At this point, I'm open to try available options just so I can manage Eva responsibly and not let the problem fester into escalation of undue incidents or her aggression.

I am honestly, not keen on punishing or training her with a method that induces pain. Even my 'water squirts' punishment which I had deemed to be harmless already produced negative consequences.

I don't know much of Ecollar but the thought of giving her an electric shock leaves a bad taste in me. Besides they are not sold here and can be purchased online only. I'm uncomfortable with that fact. Not for financial security issues but rather that I can't actually see and feel the product prior. Nonetheless, I'm keeping my options open.

I will check out your website that's for sure. Once again, many thanks.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> I can't speak to the law in Thailand, but in most parts of the world it's completely legal to enter private property via a unlocked gate to speak to the property owner. Mail carriers, delivery men, UPS, FedEx, meter readers, repair men, government representatives AND those who spread the word of their religion, and others, do it millions of times a day. If the gate is far from the home, and you've not provided them some way to get your attention to gain permission to enter the property, they have no choice but to open the gate and walk up to your door.
> 
> Had you locked the gate, they probably never would have entered.
> 
> ...


It's illegal to enter someone else's property here in Thailand even if the gate is wide open. But it's respected in the city. My estate where the attack incidents happened was in a rural district, thus does not deserve that same respect. 

I had a buzzer for visitors to alert me installed after I fenced the property. Meter readers, delivery guys, government officials and etc., were informed to call prior a visitation. When we are expecting a visit, I would either leashed them or keep them inside. 

If the visitation is any longer than 30 mins I would let Eva and Mocca to sniff them while holding them on leash. Once they had acknowledged the visitors and showed no interest, I would set them free. That's the past anyway, as I'm going to construct a pen at the back of the house as adviced by Selzer, and not let them free unsupervised.

However, do note that there had never been any untoward incidents or display of aggression by my pack to our gardeners or hired help after the above method was done. Though it's repeated each time they came.

Monk's though are a delicate issue. They are revered and are almost untouchables nor do they subscribe to the idea of courtesies. I'm not a fan of them...lol.

After the 'monk attacked' incident, the district people, my neighbours, and even the district chief empathizes me. But nobody's going to say the monks were at fault. Though believe me, there are more rogue monks than genuine ones here Thailand and all abusing their social status. 

I had shown displeasure when they were exaggerating facts saying that I trained killer dogs. It was frowned upon attitude. 

A lose lose situation, that's the reason we moved to live at our present home as a temporary compromise until summer that is.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> Perhaps it's just slang, but they are not babies. They are dogs and can only communicate as they do with other dogs.  SEE THIS ARTICLE.


Hahaha...you got me! My wife and I are in the process to change our habits and the dynamics of our relationship with them. Though we relapse at times.

We were always mommy and daddy while my pack had always been our babies. Mommy's boy, Daddy's girl..etc.

It's definitely going to change and we are both adapting to it, thanks to experienced, educated and learned people like you, and other esteemed members for educating us. We are truly indebted 

Regards,
Ray


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> So how are you going to keep them from reproducing?
> 
> I agree, you need to realize these are animals and they are dogs, and not babies or children, and you are their owner, not their mother and father.
> 
> ...


Duly noted! Thank you.

In answer to your question, we are considering neutering Hot (Shihtzu), Look Jeen (Poodle) and Mocca (TBD) and getting Tia (Shihtzu) spayed.

We would want to have Eva mated one day and have puppies, just once.

We are both striving to change our habits and the dynamics of our relationship with our pack.

Though we do relapse now and again  But we will change and adapt. Thanks again.

Regards,
Ray


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

For detecting signs preceding an altercation by Eva, you may find the book "Calming Signals" helpful. I know there are other good ones out there, too, that talk about dog body language and signals. Something went on between Eva & Mr. King of the kingdom that you didn't catch. Eva decided she had had enough of that. 
For now I would suggest that perhaps not fencing your entire property but fencing parts of it for the dogs would be helpful. I am also advocating rotating which dog(s) have access to which section of the fenced property at the same time.
You may also find it helpful to have very structured activities for different dogs. For instance you could work Eva on the obedience parts of Schutzhund (get some tapes to learn how to do this.) Perhaps the Eskies would enjoy agility - they're engaging active guys from what I understand. So I am saying - give the dogs something to do besides chase after stuff. 
And one more thing -- no additional dogs!!! Not now. Scale back on this menagerie accumulation.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

middleofnowhere said:


> For detecting signs preceding an altercation by Eva, you may find the book "Calming Signals" helpful. I know there are other good ones out there, too, that talk about dog body language and signals. Something went on between Eva & Mr. King of the kingdom that you didn't catch. Eva decided she had had enough of that.
> For now I would suggest that perhaps not fencing your entire property but fencing parts of it for the dogs would be helpful. I am also advocating rotating which dog(s) have access to which section of the fenced property at the same time.
> You may also find it helpful to have very structured activities for different dogs. For instance you could work Eva on the obedience parts of Schutzhund (get some tapes to learn how to do this.) Perhaps the Eskies would enjoy agility - they're engaging active guys from what I understand. So I am saying - give the dogs something to do besides chase after stuff.
> And one more thing -- no additional dogs!!! Not now. Scale back on this menagerie accumulation.


Thank you for the advise!

I had indeed fenced up my estate after the neighbour's livestock killings which did not sadly, deter the monks that got attacked.

We are currently not staying there until summer as a temporary compromise. The house we live in now is walled and gated. We are getting a fence constructed to separate the backyard front the front yard and driveway as advised by Selzer this weekend.

We would also be building a pen at the back of our house in the estate prior to moving back come summer.

Yes, we are applying more structure in training them. Been reading and watching videos voraciously, too.

The last one is a bummer though! We had already paid a deposit for a Maltese puppy before Eva's attack on Simba. Now we are in a dilemma?!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Eva's Dad said:


> * I am honestly, not keen on punishing or training her with a method that induces pain. * Even my 'water squirts' punishment which I had deemed to be harmless already produced negative consequences.


Then the Ecollar with my methods are perfect for you. No punishing in the conventional sense, during the initial training, although if you did clicker training, there is punishment throughout it. It sounds as if you've been listening to those who don't know how to use an Ecollar with modern methods. _"The pain"_ is at the level of minor discomfort. It makes dogs do things such as flick an ear, or look at the ground, when they first feel a stim. 



Eva's Dad said:


> I don't know much of Ecollar but * the thought of giving her an electric shock leaves a bad taste in me. *


As it does almost everyone who THINKS about using one. This is because just about everyone in the modern world has some personal history of electricity and it's not a pleasant one. But not to worry, using an Ecollar with my methods is nothing like this. Modern Ecollars are adjustable to such a low level that no dog (and no person) can feel it. Why is this important? Because it means that you can slowly turn it up until the dog DOES feel it. They then will do one or more of the things that I mentioned in my last paragraph, sniff the ground or flick an ear. Sometimes they'll sit and scratch their neck, as if they had received a single flea bite. Sometimes they're startled, because it's a sudden sensation and nothing in their life has prepared them for it, and it's uncomfortable, but no one would properly describe it as pain. Discomfort is the appropriate word. I think that when you offer, but−then−withhold a treat from a dog, because (for example) he didn't sit on command, that you're causing more discomfort, than an Ecollar does when used with my methods. Take a look at THE RECALL PROTOCOL to see how this is done. Don't mistake the current that a charged fence puts out with that of an Ecollar. It's nowhere near the same power level or the same sensation. If you go this way, only two brands of Ecollar will work, they're discussed in my articles. 



Eva's Dad said:


> Besides they are not sold here and can be purchased online only. I'm uncomfortable with that fact. Not for financial security issues but rather that I can't actually see and feel the product prior. Nonetheless, I'm keeping my options open.


I'm like that too, I like to touch stuff to get the feel of it, before I buy it. But sometimes it's just not possible. And since you've already tried one form of training and it's not given you the results you want, you might want to explore another one. Most Ecollar dealers (of course I can't speak for the ones in your part of the world) offer a 30 day full refund if you're not satisfied with the product. When I work one−on−one with a client I offer a money back guarantee for BOTH the Ecollar and the training. I don't know of another trainer who will refund the training fee if the client is not satisfied. 



Eva's Dad said:


> It's illegal to enter someone else's property here in Thailand even if the gate is wide open. But it's respected in the city. My estate where the attack incidents happened was in a rural district, thus does not deserve that same respect.
> 
> * I had a buzzer for visitors to alert me * installed after I fenced the property. Meter readers, delivery guys, government officials and etc., were informed to call prior a visitation. When we are expecting a visit, I would either leashed them or keep them inside.


How did the monks not ring the buzzer?


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

RunShepherdRun said:


> ... Do not think of adult dogs as 'babies'. They are dogs (and I am glad they are). Thinking of them as babies doesn't recognize who they are, and recognizing others for who they are is the basis of love. And it makes you blind to the potential of aggression that adult dogs of a protective breed must have to be true to their breed. ...





Eva's Dad said:


> ...To be honest, both my wife and I are still struggling to see them as simply pets or dogs. They have been our children and we are both mommy and daddy to them. ...


Seeing dogs as dogs doesn't have to mean seeing them as "simply pets or dogs". Dogs are complex social animals, so are we. The two species differ though. 

It is easy to fall into the trap of 'fur babies' etc as most dogs are dependent on us for food and shelter, and are very immediate in their expression of affection, and remain playful as adults. But that does not change the fact that they grow up to be adults of their species. They have sex and puppies unless altered, they need to find or create their social place and will do what it takes unless boundaries and rules are set, their forms of communication and body language differ from that of humans, and they can become aggressive especially if running in a pack. 

Most dogs that show aggression are still very loving with their own humans. That makes it easier for said humans to deceive themselves into still thinking of them as their 'fur babies'. But it takes only one very bad situation to permanently cause damage. You are fortunate it hasn't happened yet, and you are wise to seek advice.

I love the company of dogs precisely because they are dogs, and not humans. I like to live with members of both species (and a few more!). 

You might enjoy reading Patricia McConnell's book "The Other End of the Leash", a well written exploration into the differences between humans and dogs. She knows her stuff and has a great sense of humor, too. 
More book recommendations: Suzanne Clothier "If Bones Would Rain From the Sky". Brenda Aloff "Canine Body Language". All three have web pages with videos as well and have recorded DVDs. Available from Amazon or directly from them.

I apologize but I haven't read the rest of the thread. The sun is out for the first time after days of rain and I'll take the dogs for a good run!


----------



## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Eva's Dad said:


> I don't know much of Ecollar but the thought of giving her an electric shock leaves a bad taste in me. Besides they are not sold here and can be purchased online only. I'm uncomfortable with that fact. Not for financial security issues but rather that I can't actually see and feel the product prior. Nonetheless, I'm keeping my options open.


Be very weary about anyone who advises Electric shock collars as the first line of intervention to a family dog... Especially when they recommend it to a novice to use themselves.

This is compulsion training.
It is old school training.
Science and modern training methods have moved beyond this.

This is a beautiful article: (A must read)
Leerburg Dog Training | The Theory of Corrections in Dog Training

It talks about the importance of corrections however it talks about all the work you should do before even attempting them. He does not skip steps... He does not solve all problems with a mechanical device... There is a lot more that goes into the bond between you and your dog than just an E-collar.

You could get results a lot faster using compulsion training... This is true..
But if you have the time and interest in training your dog it is not the right way to start with... You can damage the relationship with your dog severely. Next time he turns to bite it might be you.

Also Only professionals or experienced users should be using these equipment. And even then if this is there first option I would tread with care.

It is a very fine line between doing it correctly and abuse.

Again your dog is a complex situation... 

What you need to do is research training Philosophies.... Not necessarily how to train your dog...
And find an appropriate professional dog trainer that suites your philosophy, to give you advice... Even if that trainer is consulting through skype sessions.

Dog training is highly unregulated, and even professionals all do all their own thing much of the time.

Balance is the key to everything in life.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Eva's Dad said:


> Thank you for the advise!
> 
> ....
> The last one is a bummer though! We had already paid a deposit for a Maltese puppy before Eva's attack on Simba. Now we are in a dilemma?!


 
Dilemma??? Just give up the deposit. I cannot stress "quit adding more dogs" strongly enough (obviously). Just stop it. I don't give a rat's butt if you loose your deposit. You've gone somewhat mad with the "get another dog" idea. Stop it!!!
[You will loose far more than your deposit if you keep down this path of, well, crazy thinking.]


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

middleofnowhere said:


> Dilemma??? Just give up the deposit. I cannot stress "quit adding more dogs" strongly enough (obviously). Just stop it. I don't give a rat's butt if you loose your deposit. You've gone somewhat mad with the "get another dog" idea. Stop it!!!
> [You will loose far more than your deposit if you keep down this path of, well, crazy thinking.]


Agree, you are having trouble in your pack. Until you iron that out and everything is going very well, for a long time, don't even thinking to adding to your pack. Expect that when you do add to it, it WILL cause more issues, so you also have to be ready for more issues. 

Having a dog improves our life and health. Having a second dog can also improve our lives and health. As we increase the number of dogs we have, it starts making our lives more difficult, and more stressful, and eventually this will take a toll not only on us, but also on the dogs themselves. There comes a time when by bringing in another dog, it has a negative impact on all of our other dogs. You are there already. Please do not add the Maltese.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lykoz said:


> Be very weary about anyone who advises Electric shock collars as the first line of intervention to a family dog...


This is typical advice from those who know little about the modern use of Ecollars as is the case here. In any case, Eva's Dad, since you've done clicker training, a form of marker training, already and have not gotten satisfactory results it's NOT the _"first line of intervention."_ And dogs are dogs whether they're _"family dogs,"_ sport dogs, working dog, or any other kind of dog. 



Lykoz said:


> Especially when they recommend it to a novice to use themselves.


Literally thousands of people, many of them who have never before trained a dog, have followed my protocols and were completely satisfied with their results. CLICK HERE TO SEE SOME OF THEIR COMMENTS. The protocols are written in a 'how –to' fashion to allow anyone who can read and follow simple instructions to use an Ecollar to train basic OB. And unlike the website that Lykoz keep sending us to, they're free. 



Lykoz said:


> This is compulsion training.


Please give us your definition of _"compulsion training"_ so everyone will know what you mean by it. It sounds like you think there's something wrong with _"compulsion training."_ While we're waiting for you to answer that question, here are a couple of generally accepted, common definitions used by some trainers. 



> Compulsion-Praise Training — * The trainer manipulates the dog into a position by using physical placement or training equipment. * For example, the dog may be physically manipulated into sitting by applying pressure on his bottom or brought into heel position with a head halter or collar correction. Reinforcement may be verbal praise and/or a food reward. [Emphasis Added]
> https://apdt.com/pet-owners/choosing-a-trainer/methods/





> The compulsion form of dog training has a lot of negative publicity. Mostly because of incompetent trainers, and * the general misunderstanding of the techniques and philosophy involved. * All living things learn by trial and error, or negative reinforcements and positive reinforcements. Example of negative reinforcement: parent tells a child, not to touch a pot on the stove because it is HOT. Child touches pot anyway, gets burnt. The child has learned the pot is hot by negative reinforcement. The child was burnt.
> 
> Example of positive reinforcement: Child brings home report card with all “A’s” on it, the parents take the child to Disney Land. The child’s hard work is recognized and rewarded. [Emphasis Added]
> 
> What is dog compulsive training?


Trainers who don't know what they are talking about think that compulsion training means that it is based on punishment. Many folks in this last group pretend that they are all positive trainers and that they never use punishment, when in fact, it's impossible to train a dog without using punishment. In fact, Lykoz is wrong! SOME Ecollar work is _"compulsion training."_ And some is not. I agree, that he does not know enough to have an opinion that is of any value to this discussion. 



Lykoz said:


> It is old school training.


Says someone who has told us several times in other threads that he does not know enough about the modern use of Ecollars to have an opinion. 

There's no generally accepted definition of _"old school training,"_ but it has an ominous sound too many folks. IN REALITY, the modern use of Ecollars at low level settings is relatively new, * decades newer than marker training. * Heck, even the earliest methods of using the Ecollar, at very high levels of stim are newer than marker training. Marker training was developed in the 1940's, nearly 70 years ago. Ecollars weren't even invented until 1968, only about 45 years ago. These facts have been pointed out to Lykoz in previous discussions, but he persists in this myth, that somehow marker training is newer. 



Lykoz said:


> Science and modern training methods have moved beyond this.


This is another old refrain of those who don't know much, if anything about the modern use of Ecollars. Many of them think that it's just a matter of pressing the button when the dog does something the owner does not want the dog to do. But THAT is _"old school"_ thinking and based on Lykoz' comment it's where HE is in his thinking about the Ecollar. It's how Ecollars were used ages ago, it's not what modern users of the tool are doing today, and it's not even close to what I'm doing. THIS TOO has been pointed out to Lykoz a couple of times now, but here's another myth, he persists in. I'd have thought that on this forum we're well beyond this basic nonsense, but here we are. That drivel DOES fly on the forum he keeps recommending, where the owner does not permit strong dissent, but it's not gonna work here. 



Lykoz said:


> This is a beautiful article: (A must read)
> Leerburg Dog Training | The Theory of Corrections in Dog Training


I don't like critiquing something written by someone that is not here to defend his article. But since this author does not leave his own site, and Lykoz recommends this so strongly, I have no choice. AND it's the sort of thing that he did, when I did the same thing, recommended some article from a website that I recommended. The difference, I won't deliberately omit necessary information to the meaning of what I quote, commonly called "quoting out of context" as he did. I won't distort the meaning of what the author intended. He does a fine job of being wrong, all by himself. Folks can waste their time with that article if they like but I think that it's so full of holes, errors of fact and mistakes about the drives of a dog and how dogs think, that it's more of a cartoon than a serious dog training article. 

Here are a couple of examples. The article says,


> Metal choke chain collars are never recommended for obedience training. The mechanics of how these collars are used in obedience training (constantly popping the leash and collar) will do long term muscle damage to dogs' neck muscles This damage occurs right at the spot where the chain slips through the ring on the collar. The entire force of the correction is applied to this one spot whereas with a prong collar the force of the correction is applied around the entire circumference of the dog's neck. * This has been proven through autopsies done in Germany on dogs that were trained their entire life with choke collars vs dogs trained with prong collars. *


The FACT is that * no one has ever been able to show a citation for this study, not in any K-9 journal and not in any scientific journal. * In trying to track it down it seems that it came from a statement made by a trainer at a seminar and she's never backed it up with a citation either. People have just assumed that it's true and repeated it so often that it's become accepted as true. It's attained the status of an _ Internet Legend. _ When questioned about this, the author of this article * refused to support his statement. * If an author won't even provide support for the existence of a scientific study that he bases his claims on, how can anything else he says be trusted? BTW I pointed this fact out to the author of the article back when he wrote it, around 2005. Yet in spite of knowing that there is no such article, he left it in the final draft of the article. There is much outdated information on this site that Lykoz keeps referring us to. And a novice won't be able to tell what's current what is obsolete. As another poster has said, the owner of the site has been "reborn" several times, with new methods of training a dog each time. There's no way to tell which iteration, which rebirth, one is reading. 

The article says,


> There are also those trainers who feel the need to punish a dog with a correction. Those handlers can train a dog but they never have what I consider a deep bond with their dog.


So this author thinks that anyone who gives a dog a correction will _"never have what [he] considers a deep bond with their dog."_ Of course this is nonsense. 

Yet a just a few sentences later he writes this,


> The purpose of this article is to shed light on when to apply corrections is a training program.


Huh?

Moving along, this author asserts that there are _"5 Core Words of Marker Training"_ and that they each mean something significantly different. Here's #2 _"YES means we like what he is doing and * he is now released to do what he wants until we ask him to do something else. * Some trainers call this a RELEASE."_

Here's #5, _"DONE simply means our training session is over. At the end of every training session we say ALL DONE and the dog will learn through repetition that * he is free to do what he wants because we are thru with the training session or the work session*."_

Anyone who REALLY understands dogs will realize that the difference between these two markers is * a human construct, * not a concept that a dog will understand. If a trainer says "ALL DONE" to his dog, a moment later he may have to give the dog a command, if for example, the dog starts to chase a squirrel. BUT according to this bit of nonsense, the dog will think that he's _"thru with the training session [and that ] he is free to do what he wants."_ In reality, all this author is doing is trying to appear to be scientific, but all he's really doing is exposing how little he understands about how dogs think, and of what he's doing. 

He continues,


> During the foundation of teaching behaviors we never correct a dog for not performing the behavior correctly. We simply withhold the reward and ask the dog to try again. * From a true scientific position * “withholding a reward can be looked at as a correction for some dogs”. In our case we don’t look at it like that. [Emphasis Added]


It's fascinating that _"from a true scientific position 'withholding a reward can be looked at as a correction for some dogs'. * [BUT] In our case we don’t look at it like that."*_ During most of this article the author tries to appear to be scientific, but here he leaves science behind! Unless you're using the word "correction" to mean something different than generations of dog trainers have used the term, in this case, "science" is right. Withholding a treat * IS * a correction. It's used here as a form of punishment (used in the OC [Operant Conditioning] sense of the word). 

At this point we're only about 20% into the article. I could go on, but I think the readers get the point. There's little of value to anyone in this article. 



Lykoz said:


> It talks about the importance of corrections however it talks about all the work you should do before even attempting them. He does not skip steps... * He does not solve all problems with a mechanical device... There is a lot more that goes into the bond between you and your dog than just an E-collar. *


Do you know what a straw man argument is? Here's a perfect example of one. Who said anything about _"solving all problems?"_ Who said that an Ecollar was all there was to a bond between the dog and the owner? These are absurd statements that no one has made. A straw man is a logical fallacy wherein someone pretends that his opponent in a debate has adopted a position and then disparages it. 



Lykoz said:


> You could get results a lot faster using compulsion training... This is true..


I agree. If you use your hands or the leash to guide the dog into the desired position, and then reinforce that, he'll catch on VERY quickly. 



Lykoz said:


> But if you have the time and interest in training your dog it is * not the right way to start * with...


Didja miss the OP's statement that he's already done clicker training (a form of marker training)? He's not _"starting"_ training. 



Lykoz said:


> You can damage the relationship with your dog severely. Next time he turns to bite it might be you.


NONSENSE. I've guided THOUSANDS of dogs into the recall by pulling on the leash. NOT ONE OF THEM tried to bite me. The problem is that Lykoz is probably using some perverted definition of "compulsion." If he answers my questions as to what he means, we'll know for sure, but based on just this absurd statement, it seems obvious. He's not much at answering questions, in a recent thread I asked him 20 simple, direct and straightforward questions that he ran and hid from. 



Lykoz said:


> Also Only professionals or experienced users should be using these equipment. And even then if this is there first option I would tread with care.


EVEN MORE NONSENSE. This tripe might have flown 20 years ago or on a forum devoted to those who pretend that they are doing "pure positive" training, where they actually believe all the myths and legends that have sprouted about Ecollars, but it's not going to work here. There are too many people, NOT PROS, just ordinary pet owners, who have used my methods to their complete satisfaction and know that this is one of those myths, spread by people who know little, if anything about the tool. Often, especially when other methods have failed, the Ecollar is my first option. Doing the same thing over and over again (repeating the failed method) is one definition of insanity. 



Lykoz said:


> It is a very fine line between doing it correctly and abuse.


WOW, the illogical statements don't seem to end. Making a mistake with any tool, is not abuse. ABUSE has the intention of causing harm or pain without a goal of training. There's a HUGE GULF between training and abuse. I don't think that any members here are going to be taken in by such hyperbole. 



Lykoz said:


> Again your dog is a complex situation...
> 
> What you need to do is research training Philosophies.... Not necessarily how to train your dog...


Good idea. Spend months researching and studying the dozens, maybe hundreds of dog training _"philosoophies"_ that are out there. Meanwhile to prevent your dogs from making any more mistakes, keep them locked up and locked up separately. OR you could just pick a method that makes sense to you and put it to use. I'd bet that if you take this path you'll spend months in _"research[ing] training philosophies"_ and then longer in training, to get to the final result, a dog that you can trust not to kill any more of your neighbors chickens and not to get into fights with your other dogs. I'd bet that if you went to the Ecollar and followed my methods you'd be there in a few weeks. AND just as important, your relationship with your dogs would be better than ever. Using an Ecollar with my methods does FAR MORE than just teach a dog the behaviors you want him to learn. 



Lykoz said:


> Dog training is highly unregulated, and even professionals all do all their own thing much of the time.
> 
> Balance is the key to everything in life.


Yep, anyone can call himself a dog trainer. I know people who have only owned a few, say _"8 dogs"_ in their lives, who have never used many of the tools or methods commonly used in training a dog, who go onto forums and write as if they have lots of knowledge and experience. Sometimes they'll recommend one person over and over, even though it's been shown that he really doesn’t know quite as much as they think he does.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

RunShepherdRun said:


> Seeing dogs as dogs doesn't have to mean seeing them as "simply pets or dogs". Dogs are complex social animals, so are we. The two species differ though.
> 
> It is easy to fall into the trap of 'fur babies' etc as most dogs are dependent on us for food and shelter, and are very immediate in their expression of affection, and remain playful as adults. But that does not change the fact that they grow up to be adults of their species. They have sex and puppies unless altered, they need to find or create their social place and will do what it takes unless boundaries and rules are set, their forms of communication and body language differ from that of humans, and they can become aggressive especially if running in a pack.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input and book suggestions! We really do appreciate it.

As advised by other members of this forum and from your esteemed and learned self. We are making changes towards recognising them as our dogs as opposed to being our babies. It's not easy as it's a completely different outlook, but we are going to be objective about it and be responsible.

Once again, we thank you 

Regards,
Ray


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> Be very weary about anyone who advises Electric shock collars as the first line of intervention to a family dog... Especially when they recommend it to a novice to use themselves.
> 
> This is compulsion training.
> It is old school training.
> ...


Thank you!

We are also thankful for the fact that I had so decided to seeked learned advice's from esteemed members of this forum.

All of the inputs and perspectives were pondered and considered. We are still deliberating at the options and suggestions given us.

Yours were indeed very logical and sound, and we do take note of it seriously. Your perspectives and takes pertaining to our predicament were learned and quite spot on 

Lou Castle had enlightened me of the Ecollar facts (of which I'm duly indebted) and helped to dispel the earlier misconception about it.

Thank you for guiding us with your learned experiences and hope it will continue.

However, I definitely need to tackle this problem we have soonest, lest it escalated to something major.

Here are the 3 best options we are pondering seriously, and our apprehensions to it :

1. (+) Police Obedience Training (3 months/daily visitations).

(-) The commands and training are in Thai vernacular, we are an English speaking household. Thus far, all our dogs responded only in English. 

Also, we worries about Eva's reintegration to our menagerie once she completed her course and come home.

2. (+) Professional Trainer

(-) At best we can get a part time professional training every 2 weeks ( the trainer's however, told us that not much can be achieved with this arrangement). Almost all trainers are based in Bangkok, our capital. We now live 670 km away in the Northeast. Most have other commitments to their existing clients and could not accede to our paying request.

We could all move to our house in Bangkok but at the expense of distressing other's in the pack as Bangkok is not a dog friendly city. Loud, humid, congested, polluted air, worse still dogs are problhibited at all public parks. 

Personally, we avoid living there except for short holiday breaks. 

3. (+) Ecollar 

I have been reading about it voraciously and with the guidance of Lou Castle, am pretty encourage to opt for it.

(-) Zero experience. No professionals to guide or correct me in person. I have made many 'rookie mistakes' using other methods that had now contributed to my current predicament.

Even the professional trainers in Bangkok have zero experience with it. Thus my apprehension of making more detrimental mistakes.

Once again, thank you. We are duly grateful.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

middleofnowhere said:


> Dilemma??? Just give up the deposit. I cannot stress "quit adding more dogs" strongly enough (obviously). Just stop it. I don't give a rat's butt if you loose your deposit. You've gone somewhat mad with the "get another dog" idea. Stop it!!!
> [You will loose far more than your deposit if you keep down this path of, well, crazy thinking.]


Duly noted! Thank you and YES, taking your advise thus we decided to rather lose the deposit than adding a could be future 'PROBLEM'.

However, I would like to state that I am not crazy or a compulsive dog collector. I just love dogs. I think I am rather very responsible (sparing the attacks) towards their care and well being.

Nonetheless, as pointed out directly or indirectly by other esteemed members including yourself, I am not in the best position to do it just now. 

So no more dogs until Eva's issue's resolved and me being more learned.

Thank you for putting me in my place.  Bless you.

Regards,
Ray


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

selzer said:


> Agree, you are having trouble in your pack. Until you iron that out and everything is going very well, for a long time, don't even thinking to adding to your pack. Expect that when you do add to it, it WILL cause more issues, so you also have to be ready for more issues.
> 
> Having a dog improves our life and health. Having a second dog can also improve our lives and health. As we increase the number of dogs we have, it starts making our lives more difficult, and more stressful, and eventually this will take a toll not only on us, but also on the dogs themselves. There comes a time when by bringing in another dog, it has a negative impact on all of our other dogs. You are there already. Please do not add the Maltese.


Thank you! We decided not to add the Maltese and deal with Eva's issues as our priority.

Your points duly noted 

Regards,
Ray


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> This is typical advice from those who know little about the modern use of Ecollars as is the case here. In any case, Eva's Dad, since you've done clicker training, a form of marker training, already and have not gotten satisfactory results it's NOT the _"first line of intervention."_ And dogs are dogs whether they're _"family dogs,"_ sport dogs, working dog, or any other kind of dog.
> 
> Literally thousands of people, many of them who have never before trained a dog, have followed my protocols and were completely satisfied with their results. CLICK HERE TO SEE SOME OF THEIR COMMENTS. The protocols are written in a 'how –to' fashion to allow anyone who can read and follow simple instructions to use an Ecollar to train basic OB. And unlike the website that Lykoz keep sending us to, they're free.
> 
> ...


We thank you very much, Lou! You have steered us onto the right course of action to take.

Yes, I read the Leerburg article and agrees that there are contradictions. Not being a professional in dog training or philosophies does impede detecting the inconsistencies at first read, but after reading under your light. I saw it  Thank you.

We have decided to go with Ecollar training using your methods and guidance. We are getting prepared and will be reading as much as needed from your website before we start.

Btw, are your site optimized for tablet and smartphones? As it's fine on my home PC or laptops but it doesn't on my tablets and phones. I want your guidance to be handy during revisions.

Also, I couldn't find where to select an Ecollar for purchase from your website. Do you ship to Thailand? Most importantly, will with correct Ecollar training get Eva along with Simba again? We really need that.

Thank you again.

Regards,
Ray


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Eva's Dad said:


> We thank you very much, Lou! You have steered us onto the right course of action to take.
> 
> Yes, I read the Leerburg article and agrees that there are contradictions. Not being a professional in dog training or philosophies does impede detecting the inconsistencies at first read, but after reading under your light. I saw it  Thank you.


I'm now glad that I took the time to go back over it. As much as it pained me to read it again and relive the exchange that took place over it, I'm happy that it helped you to decide. 



Eva's Dad said:


> Btw, are your site optimized for tablet and smartphones? As it's fine on my home PC or laptops but it doesn't on my tablets and phones. I want your guidance to be handy during revisions.


Sorry but the site is not optimized for mobile devices. But feel free to print out any of the protocols that you think will help you. That way you can underline, use a highlighter, and otherwise mark up whatever you need. 



Eva's Dad said:


> Also, I couldn't find where to select an Ecollar for purchase from your website. Do you ship to Thailand? Most importantly, will with correct Ecollar training get Eva along with Simba again? We really need that.


It's not a commercial site so there's no place to purchase an Ecollar. I will ship to Thailand. Please contact me via email for those details. [email protected] 

As to Evan and Simba getting along. There aren't any guarantees with dog training. But I've worked the protocol about 200 times myself and it's only failed once, when the owner refused to do some work at home that was necessary. This video is on my site. It shows two dogs playing together. One of them used to be aggressive towards the other. But now, after working the crittering protocol on him, no one can tell which dog was the aggressive one. This good a result is extraordinary. Usually the aggressive dog just learns to tolerate the other dog. But sometimes, and I've had it happen twice like this, and once just got tolerance, you get this result. I don't require that the dogs frolic and play like these dogs do, just so long as the aggressive dog stops the aggression. BTW there's no sound on the video.


----------



## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

Ray, off topic: I like the structure of Eva's short croup with a high tail set. I often wonder whether the many lumbar-sacral back issues that GSDs get and have been getting in the the last maybe 30 or 40 years have to do with the way the croup has been restructured to be longer and somewhat curved (not talking about roached backs in show lines), even in most working line dogs. 

Would you perhaps be game to taking a picture of her in a stack and posting it under 'Critic my dog' with her pedigree? 

You might get some members being critical of her structure, but I bet I am not the only one who likes her rear structure. 

Just want to add that I appreciate your polite tone. We must sound like ruffians in our directness! Part of it is American and European styles, part of it GSD culture, kinda like our dogs  . Kudos to you for being so open minded! Please know that this is one of the most constructive threads I've seen in a long time, kudos to all who contributed!


----------



## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

RunShepherdRun said:


> ?...
> 
> Just want to add that I appreciate your polite tone. We must sound like ruffians in our directness! Part of it is American and European styles, part of it GSD culture, kinda like our dogs  . Kudos to you for being so open minded! Please know that this is one of the most constructive threads I've seen in a long time, kudos to all who contributed!


I also read this thread, was proud of how Ray accepted, and replied to all comments. I learned a bit of new things, about the Tibetian way of life, the Monks..the Dali Lama has always fascinated me. Kudo's Ray!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some countries have laws against e-collars. Lou, is Thailand ok for them?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> Some countries have laws against e-collars. Lou, is Thailand ok for them?


Good question. I don't know. I wasn't able to find anything on the Net about it so I'd guess that they're OK there. In dealing with folks where I don't know their situation, I have them check before purchasing. 

Ecollars are banned in only a very few countries. Wales is one. One province in Canada is another. There are restrictions in several places, for example in some states in Australia, you must have a vet's letter. But such a letter is easy to get, just asking, will do it. I think that's the situation in a couple of Scandinavian countries. In many countries their use is "frowned upon" but that does not have the force of law. 

Being a retired police officer I would never advise anyone to break the law, but I know that in several countries where Ecollars are banned, they're still in use in some areas, quite a lot. For some things there is no substitute.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You know that I am not a fan. But then I don't use them, and don't need them with my critters. I think that if anything helps someone get control of a situation that is likely going to end really badly, the ends do justify the means.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> I'm now glad that I took the time to go back over it. As much as it pained me to read it again and relive the exchange that took place over it, I'm happy that it helped you to decide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, Lou!

I will be writing you an email soonest pertaining to purchase the Ecollar. 

Well, I understand that there's no guarantee for Eva and Simba to ever get along again, no matter what training were implaced.

But there is always a glimmer of hope it can be achieved to a level of tolerance. I'm going to take a calculated risk optimistically without disregarding safety precautions, as I don't want to fail in areas of effort. 

Perhaps, you could guide me on this bit?  I will only do it upon Eva's completing the Ecollar training successfully.

Thank you, sir!

Regards,
Ray


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

RunShepherdRun said:


> Ray, off topic: I like the structure of Eva's short croup with a high tail set. I often wonder whether the many lumbar-sacral back issues that GSDs get and have been getting in the the last maybe 30 or 40 years have to do with the way the croup has been restructured to be longer and somewhat curved (not talking about roached backs in show lines), even in most working line dogs.
> 
> Would you perhaps be game to taking a picture of her in a stack and posting it under 'Critic my dog' with her pedigree?
> 
> ...


Thank you for suggesting the idea of posting Eva's photos. It's a great idea!  I will do some amateur photography sessions with her.

Hahaha...thank you also for appreciating politeness. I am humbled. 

Truth be told, I wasn't one of the most politically correct and humble person many years ago. I was indeed an 'office monster', arrogant, hot headed, slave driver (as attested by my subordinates) kind of person.

No, you guys don't sound anything like ruffians...lol. I indeed appreciate directness. Though I'm Thai, I was born in England and raised all over the world (dad's postings subjected my family being uprooted every 2-3 years). If anything, I'm more European and Western in culture and demeanour as opposed to Thainess...hahaha. And a bashing is what I need sometimes. 

Dogs changed me! I learnt calmness, humility, and the ability to live in the 'NOW' from each of them. My transformation are all attributed to them. Though the tenacity and courage are from Eva...lol.

Yes, I do agree that all replies were constructive and well intended (bashings included). I am so glad and proud to be a member of this community. 

Thank you once again! Yes, will be posting Eva's photos in the 'Critic My Dog' section soonest.

Regards,
Ray


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

selzer said:


> Some countries have laws against e-collars. Lou, is Thailand ok for them?


Selzer,

I checked and, no, Ecollars are not banned in Thailand but very frowned upon.

I made enquiries at almost a dozen pet stores, none have it in retail and almost all were shocked, I asked for it. 4 actually asked me why do I want to torture my dogs with it?!...lol.

Even with my explanation it was received with tsk..tsk..tsk and shaking of the head. One actually asked my wife if I am retarded...hahaha. Thai culture's complicated! 

Anyway, I am awaiting official answer as whether I can order and receive it without problems. 

Regards,
Ray


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

Debanneball said:


> I also read this thread, was proud of how Ray accepted, and replied to all comments. I learned a bit of new things, about the Tibetian way of life, the Monks..the Dali Lama has always fascinated me. Kudo's Ray!!


Most obliged and thank you! 

Regards,
Ray


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Eva's Dad said:


> Well, I understand that there's no guarantee for Eva and Simba to ever get along again, no matter what training were implaced.
> 
> * But there is always a glimmer of hope it can be achieved to a level of tolerance. * I'm going to take a calculated risk optimistically without disregarding safety precautions, as I don't want to fail in areas of effort.
> 
> Perhaps, you could guide me on this bit? I will only do it upon Eva's completing the Ecollar training successfully.



I think that you should be beyond a _"glimmer of hope"_ that tolerance can be established. Many years ago I rescued a GSD from the pound that had bitten someone. The bite was justified, it was in defense of the dog's owner from a drunk neighbor that showed all indications of physically attacking the owner, had the dog not interfered. But the bitten person lied and the animal control people were going to put the dog down, had a trainer not rescued him. This dog had been aggressive towards other dogs his whole life, 3−4 years I think he was. At the time I owned three other GSD's. Upon initial introduction in a neutral place, he showed high levels of aggression towards all of the other dogs. I ran him through the crittering protocol several times, as described in the article. He then became non−aggressive towards those dogs to such a degree that I'd leave all four of them home alone, loose in the house, while I went to work, 12-14 hours at a time. They had a doggie door to go into the yard to play, drink and relieve themselves. He'd lay in the sun while the other three dogs played together. One of them, a very sweet female would run past him, running right across his front legs as he lay in the grass, inviting him to play. She'd play bow in front of him. He never played with them, remaining aloof and even turning his head away from them, but he never got into any kind of fight with them for the rest of his life. 

Flash forward about ten years, when my wife was looking for another dog to train for SAR as her certified dog, a GSD was reaching his peak and she wanted to have another SAR dog ready in the line, when he aged out. We rescued a Mal from a local GSD rescue, yes I know what's a GSD rescue doing with a Mal? They just shrugged when I asked. I tested this dog and he just barely squeaked through. I wanted a dog with more drive and was about to give the bad news, that he was not suitable, to the volunteer, when she happened to mention that the dog was on Fluoxetine, the doggie equivalent of Prozac, because the rescue thought he was too hyperactive to be in the house or with the other dogs because he was aggressive towards them. Before the Fluoxetine, at the rescue home, he had been jumped by 2-3 other dogs and had successfully defended himself. Perhaps due to this attack, he became aggressive towards all other dogs, and had twice broken out of a Vari−kennel to attack them. In fact if other dogs were around, he could not be contained in the Vari−kennel. He completely destroyed two of them and was on his way to destroying a third. I have stainless steel kennels and so this wasn't an issue. 

We first weaned him off the drugs. At the time we had two other dogs at the house, the GSD SAR dog and a SAR washout, a Terv who was about 13 years old, and fairly fragile due to his age. I could not have a dog that would harm either of these dogs. But we had a chain link run in the yard and if it turned out that he was aggressive to the other dogs, he'd spend most of him time separated from them, in that run. I ran him through the crittering protocol. He now lives in the house with the other dogs and actively plays with the certified SAR dog. The Terv has been replaced by a Pit mix that my daughter rescued. He also plays with that dog. Right now I'm dog−sitting a Toy Poodle/Shih Tzu mix that belongs to a friend who can't care for him right now. The Mal loves to play with this little guy. The Mal plays with the other family dogs and tolerates other dogs. 

HERE YOU'LL FIND five anecdotes from people who had aggressive dogs. Some were aggressive towards humans (some, the owner) and some were aggressive towards other dogs. Those owners were not trainers and they had never before used an Ecollar for anything. Note that many of them had tried the so−called "kinder gentler methods, only to fail completely or meet with only partial results, at best. I have no doubt that if you follow the instructions, you'll have similar results to theirs.


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## Eva's Dad (Dec 21, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> I think that you should be beyond a _"glimmer of hope"_ that tolerance can be established. Many years ago I rescued a GSD from the pound that had bitten someone. The bite was justified, it was in defense of the dog's owner from a drunk neighbor that showed all indications of physically attacking the owner, had the dog not interfered. But the bitten person lied and the animal control people were going to put the dog down, had a trainer not rescued him. This dog had been aggressive towards other dogs his whole life, 3−4 years I think he was. At the time I owned three other GSD's. Upon initial introduction in a neutral place, he showed high levels of aggression towards all of the other dogs. I ran him through the crittering protocol several times, as described in the article. He then became non−aggressive towards those dogs to such a degree that I'd leave all four of them home alone, loose in the house, while I went to work, 12-14 hours at a time. They had a doggie door to go into the yard to play, drink and relieve themselves. He'd lay in the sun while the other three dogs played together. One of them, a very sweet female would run past him, running right across his front legs as he lay in the grass, inviting him to play. She'd play bow in front of him. He never played with them, remaining aloof and even turning his head away from them, but he never got into any kind of fight with them for the rest of his life.
> 
> Flash forward about ten years, when my wife was looking for another dog to train for SAR as her certified dog, a GSD was reaching his peak and she wanted to have another SAR dog ready in the line, when he aged out. We rescued a Mal from a local GSD rescue, yes I know what's a GSD rescue doing with a Mal? They just shrugged when I asked. I tested this dog and he just barely squeaked through. I wanted a dog with more drive and was about to give the bad news, that he was not suitable, to the volunteer, when she happened to mention that the dog was on Fluoxetine, the doggie equivalent of Prozac, because the rescue thought he was too hyperactive to be in the house or with the other dogs because he was aggressive towards them. Before the Fluoxetine, at the rescue home, he had been jumped by 2-3 other dogs and had successfully defended himself. Perhaps due to this attack, he became aggressive towards all other dogs, and had twice broken out of a Vari−kennel to attack them. In fact if other dogs were around, he could not be contained in the Vari−kennel. He completely destroyed two of them and was on his way to destroying a third. I have stainless steel kennels and so this wasn't an issue.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Lou!

The anecdotes were very encouraging. We are definitely doing the Ecollar training using your method. Yes, we are going above and beyond just a 'glimmer of hope'. Thank you!

Btw, pertaining to the legality of the Ecollar here in Thailand, remains to be confirmed. There are no laws stating it's illegal though Thai's are not receptive to the idea. My wife and I, however, are sticking to our plans of using it with your training method.

We have submitted a request and queries towards obtaining it from you. As it's towards the New Year, many government officials here are on leave thus the earliest I will get a reply would be somewhere in the first week of January.

Gratefully yours,
Ray


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