# Temperament difference (WG, Czech, DDR)



## Jax08

What are the differences in temperament within the line? Are there differences in pack drive? Hardness? Nerves? Prey drive? What are the pros and cons of each "line"?


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## Jax08

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/115472-difference-btw-e-german-ddr-czech.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/177207-working-line-temperaments.html


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## 4TheDawgies

I find my Czech dogs to be a little higher in thresholds with a little bit more "realness" to them in bitework. My Czech dogs tend to take things more seriously.

The WG's I've seen generally have medium to lower thresholds. Easier for sport training. 
I like my WG/Czech crosses. They have nice balanced drives and thresholds making easy dogs to train, with seriousness to them, good fight to them, and have good in and off switches.

The DDR dogs I've met have been handler soft. The Czech dogs I've seen from lines I like are biddable. But I have seen handler soft with weak nerve in some Czech lines I don't like. The WG I've noticed are less biddable and some lines can have handler aggression.


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## Freestep

I had a Czech/WGWL cross pup at one time. Gorgeous dark sable, fearless, happy-go-lucky personality, loved other dogs, good with strangers, just an unflappable, unstoppable pup with a lust for life. Drive through the roof. She had moderate hip dysplasia, and you'd never have known it--this was the most agile, athletic dog I'd ever owned, and never a hint of lameness or discomfort.

I really liked the confident, fearless aspect of her personality. Unfortunately, she was HYPER. Couldn't settle. She would do spins in her crate when excited (and it didn't take much). Both mind and body in constant motion; do dogs have ADD? No focus. Of course, she was young when I had her. I ended up placing her at about 18 months, because she needed a home where she could be WORKED. The real problem we had was her cat drive. Even though raised with my cats since 8 weeks of age, she had an insatiable desire to do something to them... and neither of us were exactly sure what she was going to do. But I could easily see her getting overloaded in prey and biting them in half before she even knew what she was doing.

Fortunately, she knew no stranger, and after landing at the airport in her new home, she came out of her crate all happy and excited to see her new "mom". She fit right in with the new owner and her four other GSDs, a SchH enthusiast. Unfortunately, I lost touch with her new owner and never got to find out how she did in the sport. She was training for her Bh last I knew. The long down, as I recall, was a challenge with her.


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## Jax08

Was the "hyper" a trait of a certain line as noted here or just a combination within her pedigree?


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## Freestep

Jax08 said:


> Was the "hyper" a trait of a certain line as noted here or just a combination within her pedigree?


I am not sure. I've had people tell me that it could have come from either side. Here is a link to her pedigree; it's actually her litter brother's, but she looks like a female version of him.

V Eiger vom Schaaf - German Shepherd Dog


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## 4TheDawgies

Freestep that is very close lines to what my WG/Czech's pedigree's look like. We have some Cordon added in, and we have Troll through Yoshy. Plus we have Tom, and our Grim is farther back. 

I have noticed some of the hyperness you are talking about in both of mine. But mine are able to shut off and settle down. When they are on they are really on. Obedience is usually very very intense.









People at my club watching me do obedience with them will usually make comments about how intense they are. They never do it half a$$. Its either full speed 120% or nothing.
They are still young though at just 11 months today. So I imagine if they are able to settle now, they will be fine when they are adults.


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## Freestep

This is my Czech/WGWL bitch, Epik. Pictured here at 11 months of age.

Intense, yes!! Unfortunately I was not a good enough trainer to get that intensity focused on obedience, or heck... anything! Even her favorite toys could not hold her attention very long, especially when out and about. "Oh! There's another dog!" "Oh! There's a squirrel!" "Oh, there's some kids playing soccer!" Seriously, it was like ADD. Thankfully her attentions were never malicious, but she was like an overgrown 9 week old puppy. The only thing that could really command her attention were cats, and I could not figure out how to safely and humanely use a cat as an obedience reward. 

It may have improved with age and maturity.


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## cliffson1

Look for hip issue to come through Alexa....2-3 on Umsa Von Bungalow is not something I would do.


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## 4TheDawgies

LOL that sounds hard to deal with. I wouldn't like it either. I wonder if she is doing well with the Schutzhund enthusiast. 

Two puppies from my litter went to pet homes. They are active homes that keep them engaged with regular exercise and stimulation so they are doing well in their homes. They could jump into the Schutzhund field any day though and rock it out. 

I'm glad they have off switches though. I would not want their intensity without the ability to turn it off or focus it well. 

She is a pretty girl though!


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> ....2-3 on Umsa Von Bungalow is not something I would do.


Because of the hip issue, or something else?


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## Vinnie

cliffson1 said:


> Look for hip issue to come through Alexa....2-3 on Umsa Von Bungalow is not something I would do.


BTW: Isn't Alexa 2-4 on Umsa (not 2-3). Not a big deal, just wondering if I was reading that wrong. 



Freestep said:


> Because of the hip issue, or something else?


I'm curious too?


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## Ace952

Jax08 said:


> What are the differences in temperament within the line? Are there differences in pack drive? Hardness? Nerves? Prey drive? What are the pros and cons of each "line"?


You know, I think it is hard to say due to the amount of the mixing of bloodlines that occurs now. I think you really have to look at the individual pedigrees more than just (czech, wg & ddr). The number of breeders that dont mix is very small. The lines all blur together so much now that its hard to say.

Also in each line (let's use czech) there are sublines in which each will have different characteristics. Do its too difficult to lump into one neat ball.


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## Jax08

Anybody else have an opinion/input?


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## wolfstraum

the "straight" WGWL seems to be bred for extremes - usually prey....quite often without consideration for structure, pigment - of course there are a few WG kennels known for structure, often it being over moderate working ability - 

Using a "mix" of type with an understanding of the dogs further back can allow a breeder to attempt balance in drives and maintain clarity, good health and an attractive well pigmented exterior....my last litter was from a "Czech" male....but wait! He was actually 50% Czech, and 50% Belgian....to a female who was 50% WGWL and the rest DDR w a little Czech/WGR in 5th gen....

Got pigment, structure, good coat, super grips, intensity and good nerves...pups doing herding (phgsd - Kira), IPO (Kougar - G'Burg, Komet, Kyra, Kira) and others not started but showing the ability to work - but they settle in the house, and are good companions first...Picked the male to bring in the Czech and the old WGR behind them (with confirmation of a well known Koermeister/Judge who loved the dam)

Lee


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## NancyJ

There is my Czech x W German fella . not doing bitework but very interactive wants to please (though he does like to test the limits) has very good hunt drive, confidence and works nicely independantly. No dog aggression - fairly social but he is just a year old. Gets into mischief if left alone but crates and settles well. The police we train with seem to like him and think he is very promising for what we are doing (the cadaver work). 

5 geneneration pedigree for Beau von den Alten Bergen - German Shepherd Dog


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## cliffson1

Yes, hips.


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## lhczth

Jax08 said:


> Anybody else have an opinion/input?


 
Way too often opinions on lines are based on what breeders/handlers like or are "selling". What they use is always the best and the others are too extreme, "sport dogs", too nervy, too big, too this or too that. 

Two of the strongest dogs I have ever had the pleasure to see work were crosses of lines. One was DDR (and not your popular DDR lines seen now)/WGWL. The other was Czech/DDR/WGWL. Some of the most extreme dogs I have ever seen, dogs that I would not enjoy owning or working, were also crosses. Some of the most balanced and solid dogs (no extremes) I have had the pleasure of training or training with have been WGWL and one great old bitch from the z Pohranicni Straze kennels. Each of the lines can bring good and bad things depending on one's goals and one's understanding of the dogs.


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## Vandal

I don't recall comments about hips and Umsa but I didn't talk to everyone back then, just people with direct experience with the dogs, ( U litter), themselves and their direct decendants. 
I think, with her that far back in the pedigree, and where other lines have been introduced, I would not be too concerned. Depends on what has happened since Umsa . I have these so called HD producers behind some of the best hips and producers of hips in my kennel. It is the combination, not just one dog way back in the sixth or seventh generation..... if you ask me. 


What I know about the U litter Bungalow is...... there was a problem with teeth. Soft teeth that wore down or broke. Well known by all who were there when she was around. A friend of mine had her brother Ulk at her kennel for a while back in the 80s. I remember that clearly and saw some of it in the progeny and also in some of the Korbelbach dogs who had Umsa close in the pedigree. The comments I heard were about teeth , not hips.


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## Freestep

lhczth said:


> Two of the strongest dogs I have ever had the pleasure to see work were crosses of lines. One was DDR (and not your popular DDR lines seen now)/WGWL. The other was Czech/DDR/WGWL. Some of the most extreme dogs I have ever seen, dogs that I would not enjoy owning or working, were also crosses. Some of the most balanced and solid dogs (no extremes) I have had the pleasure of training or training with have been WGWL and one great old bitch from the z Pohranicni Straze kennels. Each of the lines can bring good and bad things depending on one's goals and one's understanding of the dogs.


We need names/pedigrees to go along with this great info.


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## crackem

lhczth said:


> *Way too often opinions on lines are based on what breeders/handlers like or are "selling". What they use is always the best and the others are too extreme, "sport dogs", too nervy, too big, too this or too that. *
> 
> Two of the strongest dogs I have ever had the pleasure to see work were crosses of lines. One was DDR (and not your popular DDR lines seen now)/WGWL. The other was Czech/DDR/WGWL. Some of the most extreme dogs I have ever seen, dogs that I would not enjoy owning or working, were also crosses. Some of the most balanced and solid dogs (no extremes) I have had the pleasure of training or training with have been WGWL and one great old bitch from the z Pohranicni Straze kennels. Each of the lines can bring good and bad things depending on one's goals and one's understanding of the dogs.



A freaking men

and i've said it a thousand times and I'll keep on saying it

Find the dogs you like and find out who's breeding them, then get one from there. There aren't any qualities that are unique to a certain "line" of dogs they you can't find any where else. Dogs from all over the world have the traits we are looking for and produce them in other dogs, find them, use them and make breeding goals.


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## Freestep

Vandal said:


> I don't recall comments about hips and Umsa but I didn't talk to everyone back then, just people with direct experience with the dogs, ( U litter), themselves and their direct decendants.


Interestingly, one of Epik's littermates also had HD. The rest of the litter had good hips.




> What I know about the U litter Bungalow is...... there was a problem with teeth. Soft teeth that wore down or broke. Well known by all who were there when she was around. A friend of mine had her brother Ulk at her kennel for a while back in the 80s. I remember that clearly and saw some of it in the progeny and also in some of the Korbelbach dogs who had Umsa close in the pedigree. The comments I heard were about teeth , not hips.


Well now, that is interesting. My Luka goes back to Umsa through Troll, not even linebred, and she has always had bad teeth. They were broken and worn by early adulthood, and now at age 11 she has no teeth at all... actually the carnassials and molars are in decent shape, but her canines and incisors are gone, and have been for some time. I had chalked it up to her habit of chewing on rocks and metal when she was young.


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## deldridge72

Dutch/Belgian-oh man! Two year that rarely slows down . . . . .


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## NancyJ

How far back is the influence of Umsa? Cyra had horrible teeth, worn down to the gums as well as HD, and had Umsa through Gildo Korbelbach in the 5th generation. 

Beau has her twice through Torro V Korbelbach and Troll Korbelbach in the 7th generation. That seems pretty far back....


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## Freestep

jocoyn said:


> How far back is the influence of Umsa? Cyra had horrible teeth, worn down to the gums as well as HD, and had Umsa through Gildo Korbelbach in the 5th generation.


Luka has Umsa in the 4th generation, and only once in her pedigree. But whatever it is that makes bad teeth, she certainly got it! I haven't heard of any of her littermates having the same problem, but I'm not in touch with all of them. 

Luka does have good hips--we did PennHip around 7 months of age, and she had very good joint conformation as well as good numbers on the laxity. At age 11, she is as sound as they come--they way she runs, jumps, and chases the ball, you'd think she was two. So no hip problems here, thankfully!


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## NancyJ

I assume Luka is Lark and Lycos littermate ....... Lark is Beau's grandmother. I will have to ask Lycos' owner and one of my teammates who has one of his sons. Interesting though..also asked about Reza (Lark daughter). Maybe a coincidence though it is interesting. That is pretty far back....might be like the phenomenon when you buy a new car you notice everybody and their brother has the same model.


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## cliffson1

There is a big difference in a dog being in a pedigree or distantly linebred and a dog that is linebred 2-3, in terms of future influence in pedigree.


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## wolfstraum

What about the combination of Grim z PS with Umsa for influencing hips? Grim's sire was NZ and I have been warned often about him for hips - even noticed that a very good hip producing male produced a high proportion of failing hips when bred to a Grim daughter....

Lee


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## Kev

I heard by Hans on his forum that Grim z ps sire, Ben z Bolfu had officially had C hips but later when Ben died, autopsy revealed that he had perfect hips.


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## cliffson1

Lee, Grim was seen as a "nuetral" dog when it came to hips....depending on the female used and the lines and the recombination. I did a 4-5 breeding on Grim years ago.....was not pleased with hips, by the same token I know many many litters with Grim that were not adversely impacted with hip issues. I know litters and dogs from Grim that were. As you know all breedings really come down to how the dogs and lines mesh. There are very very few dogs that I would linebreed closer than 3-3, but everyone looks at these things differently. Also, some really great dogs I love to see in pedigree once, but dont want to see them more than once in 5 generations. Again, just personal preference.


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## lhczth

At what age did they do hips when Ben z Bolfu was alive? I have seen young dogs that you would say "will not pass" at a young age end up nice and tight as they mature. Just curious. 

I have also heard warnings about linebreeding on Grim because of hips, but have never looked more deeply into the "rumors" since I have yet to use a dog with Grim in the pedigree.


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## wolfstraum

Alk produced really well for hips - except with 2 females - one was the Czech female that Greg had, Unit Gymor....don't remember who the other one was...and a daughter of Unit who was local produced quite a few with poor hips 

Lee


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## cliffson1

Lisa, Grim was a dog that I was warned against linebreeding on before I did my breeding by a couple of very knowledgable breeders in the Czech Republic. But it was not only because of hips, there were other issues that when he is in pedigree singularly may not be a concern, but when you start linebreeding on him the odds go up. Grim was a great great performer and producer.....no question about that especially with the right females. Just like Umsa, there are other reasons, stubboness, tracking obedience, sometimes handler aggression, that also factor into a tight linebreeding on Gildo/Umsa, as I'm sure you are aware. Not just hips, but the Gildo/Umsa line is not one I like for a tight linebreeding.....of course I could be way off base on Grim and Umsa.
ps I donot consider 4-5,5-5, as being a tight linebreeding. But when you get a 2-2 or 2-3, in that neighborhood, I dont like seeing high negatives even if the dog has tremendous positives. Again, just me.


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## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> Also, some really great dogs I love to see in pedigree once, but dont want to see them more than once in 5 generations. Again, just personal preference.


Friend and I were discussing this yesterday, but it was because there are dogs I have done my best to avoid all together in a pedigree. I see the dog's name andtotally avoid the pedigree. This comes from what I learned from some very old and long time horse breeders. Hard to over come our foundation.


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## Freestep

jocoyn said:


> I assume Luka is Lark and Lycos littermate ....... Lark is Beau's grandmother. I will have to ask Lycos' owner and one of my teammates who has one of his sons. Interesting though..also asked about Reza (Lark daughter). Maybe a coincidence though it is interesting. That is pretty far back....


Yes, Luka is Lark and Lycos' littermate. I think I just got the luck of the draw with her; I'd rather have bad teeth than bad hips. Interestingly, she was placed with me as a pet; Julia didn't think she'd have enough strength to be a sport or working dog. However, we started training in SchH and she did very nicely, also earned her CD at 14 months of age. We didn't title further because some life changes prevented me from ongoing training, not due to any lack on her part. But she is the perfect dog for me, and has only gotten better with age.

Regarding the mix of Grim zPS and Umsa, which Epik was, I have to say that since two of the pups in the litter had HD, it wouldn't be a combination I would go for again. However if any dog is going to have HD, it should be a hard dog with a high pain tolerance, which all the pups in the litter seemed to be. So at least there's that. :crazy:


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## cliffson1

When I did the linebreeding on Grim, 2 out of 6 puppies turned out dysplastic, all had fabulous temperaments. And in all fairness to Grim, I was also linebreeding on a Grim son that I also would not want to see in pedigree more than once. All of these pups had super super temperament, and one is trenmendous police dog today!! But 2 out of 6 is not acceptable to me.
@ Lisa, I understand your point. I am not quite that regimented against a dog unless it is known for lack of nerve or bad hips/elbows.LOL Like Troll vh Malinda, love the dog and like what I have seen of him, but dont want to see him linebred on. But there are some great dogs that are the luck of the draw and you have to be careful who and how you breed to them.


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## lhczth

YES, the Körbelbach dogs (not just coming from Umsa) can be very strong willed and, while they have tremendous hunt drive, it can be very hard to channel into "sport" type tracking. I have found, though, that once you figure out how to work them they do work very well for and with their handler. I think part of their reputation is due to the methods of the day. 

Nike's sire was linebred 2-3 on Troll/Torro Körbelbach and then brought in Iko and Jenni Lindenhalle. Super hunt drive and fight drive, strong social aggression, no handler aggression, but she was TOUGH TOUGH to work at times (mostly in protection). She was also extremely possessive. She was actually very biddable in obedience and she wanted to please me. I was told that if I didn't have her 3 by the time she was 3 I would probably never get it. She made it to her 1.  

When I took Nike to Belschik (litter linebred Umsa 5-5) which brought in Troll bösen Nachbarschaft (good line for deep nosed type tracking), Arek Stoffelblick (Gildo X Ira K.) and more Matsch Bungalow I kept the excellent hunt, fight drive and desire to work with their person, still no handler aggression (despite their sire) and, for the most part, much easier dogs to work than both their dam and their sire. This is the litter Vala came from.

Then with Vala's first litter I linebred on Arek Stoffelblick (so more Umsa) and Troll bN (through Aly) and brought in Asko Lutter. MOST of the pups maintained that tremendous hunt drive (1 drug detection dog and several super tracking dogs), are almost too biddable for my tastes (IMO, this comes from Aly) and have excellent obedience. Only 1/2 of the pups maintained the social aggression and fight drive. Some have their grandmother's possessiveness. 

The second litter I linebred on Troll Körbelbach (so, again, Umsa), Fado Karthago with a lot of backmassing (there's that word) on the Lierbergs. Also brought in Deika wannaer Höhen, Boy Pendalbach, Fasanerie and Wolfendobel (so a tiny bit of DDR). I got back the excellent hunt drive in the whole litter. Some maintained their mother's deep nosed tracking style (unfortunately not Deja who is pure Körbelbach when it comes to tracking. The harder the tracks the more interested she is in doing things my way, but it will never be pretty). In 2 of the three that I see on a regular basis I also got grandma Nike's tremendous fight drive, but with more clarity and slightly easier dogs to handle. The third is like dad with the tremendous nerves, not bothered by much and very very hard to touch in protection. 

When I bred Vala to Javir I linebred on Ira Körbelbach (4-5), Matsch Bungalow (5-5) and then the T litter bN (4,4-3) (no added Umsa). Again there is that tremendous hunt drive (see Vinnie's receint brag about Sundance), but the T litter bN also gave me the pretty deep nosed tracking ability. Very biddable dogs (Elena almost too much which, again, I think is coming through Aly), a lot of aggression in the small amount of protection work they have done. Also because of the balance there is no extremes that are often blamed on the T litter bN. The two males have very good drive for toys. Their sister would rather work for praise, playing with me and food. 

I also, years ago, had an Alf Stoffelblick daughter (Gildo X Ira K) that also brought in Wick Meran, Harro Lechrainstadt with linebreeding on Racker Itztal. She had the same fantastic hunt drive, but would have NEVER been a deep nosed tracking dog. She was also VERY VERY easy to handle (Racker), but not the best of nerves (Canto Wienerau was also in there and the placement of Racker). 

So, anyhow, there is some of my experience with Umsa, the Körblebachs and a few other dogs. I never faced the teeth issues. 

BTW, Umsa was described as a mule to work.


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## lhczth

Cliff, Troll h M. is one I tend to avoid, he might be OK one time in a pedigree, but not like a couple of others that I avoid like the plague. Just do NOT like what I saw in his direct sons. Friend has gotten some very nice pups by a son of Troll h M and loves him. LOL


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## NancyJ

I think these things are why it is so nice when folks are open about known issues...and why I would not want to try to put together a litter without some serious mentoring. 

FWIW, the response - the Lark R litter - not any issues there and most do bitework, one is a patrol dog and several others in detection disciplines and doing bitework. The Lycos son on our team has a very hard grip and the handler uses a very hard very rough jute tug (my hands don't like it!) which seems like it would be hard on the teeth but I have not seen any signs of wear and he is about 4..

My Grim grandson very nice hips. OFA Good at 2 but zero signs of wear and tear when x-rayed at 9 when we were looking for back issues (nothing orthopedic - they thought disc extrusion but he is healing up nicely enough.)--and he has the nicest temperament.


I just appreciate honestly and oppeness instead of the way some folks I have met look at things (thinking of a Greater Swiss Mountain Dog owner I knew who rationalized her dogs's less than stellar temperament and mildly dypslastic hips because of the time and money she spent to campaign her and bred her anyway)....grrrrr.


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## 4TheDawgies

I agree jocoyn, its great to see the honestly and open conversation about things. It can only be beneficial for the breed to know the truth about what some things bring.


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## Freestep

lhczth said:


> almost too biddable for my tastes (IMO, this comes from Aly)
> 
> ... Very biddable dogs (Elena almost too much which, again, I think is coming through Aly


How can a dog be "too biddable"? I can only see biddability in any amount as a good thing, unless it comes with an inability to judge or act on its own, or a tendency to freak out or shut down when not given direction.


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## lhczth

Cliff talks about taking chances with dogs because of how many other great things they bring to a breeding. He and I have often discussed Grischa schwarzen Milan. Grishca had a3 hips and was not a stellar hip producer. Despite the risks he was used because he produced exceptional temperament, nerves and working ability. Work brought these dogs tremendous joy. Something else he produced was "heart".


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## lhczth

> How can a dog be "too biddable"?


They tend to want to please almost too much which doesn't always fit with my personality.  They tend to be handler sensitive. Luckily Elena doesn't shut down, get confused or get sulky which is the issue I always had with the handler sensitivity I didn't like in many of the DDR dogs. 

It, though, can be a wonderful thing too. Elena is probably the easiest dog I have trained since my very first GSD. She learns almost too quickly so I need to be careful to show her things correctly the first time. I just seem to be drawn to the girls that "flip me the bird" once in awhile and so far I really don't get that from her.


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## cliffson1

Ah....did like Grischa a lot, but oh did you have to be careful in breeding him. I agree with everything Lisa wrote about the foremementioned dogs.
One of the reasons that sometimes many of us dont post more information is because the mixing of the dogs and lines are so much more complicated than hips, aspects of temperament, health, structure. You have all these things mixing in the equation and sometimes when asked to comment about a perspective dog I may have totally opposite feelings depending on the combination about the same dog's value.
Take Aly Vordinsteinwald as Lisa brought up....great hip producer and sire of some great hip producers, also known for more biddable dogs, and good prey drive. Now when you mix Aly in a supplemental role to a strong working pedigree, I think he is super. When you make Aly the primary focus by doing a 3-4 linebreeding on him, probably you are producing dogs that are a little too soft for my taste. But say you take that same 3-4 Aly dog and breed to a harder WL that doesn't have as stellar a hip history.....then it might work for me if I like the tough line enough. Same dog but I view him completely different depending on circumsatnces. It is difficult to convey all of these aspects,(also Aly tended to improve structure in WL, but not necessarily heart), in a pedigree when asked to analyze a pedigree. Cause you try to mix this info, on as many dogs as possible, to get feel for total picture. Often, people will see something like Grim is not good dog to linebreed on because of hips and then become negative or start passing negative on Grim. In SOME contexts he is not good to be linebred on with hips, but at the same time I could put together a pedigree that may have him linebred on that fully compensates in the hip areas, so that is not always the case. 
Often people read the negative, have the dog in their pedigree and become alarmed or upset.....when really it may be fine in THAT pedigree because of other reasons. There is just so much to consider, and sometimes far too much to explain.


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## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> AhTake Aly Vordinsteinwald as Lisa brought up....great hip producer and sire of some great hip producers, also known for more biddable dogs, and good prey drive. Now when you mix Aly in a supplemental role to a strong working pedigree, I think he is super. When you make Aly the primary focus by doing a 3-4 linebreeding on him, probably you are producing dogs that are a little too soft for my taste. But say you take that same 3-4 Aly dog and breed to a harder WL that doesn't have as stellar a hip history.....then it might work for me if I like the tough line enough. Same dog but I view him completely different depending on circumsatnces.


I got to train with a young dog linebred Aly 2-3, but he is also linebred Fenga von Ankenrütt 3-3 (Arthus Lünsholz X Ira Körbelbach) bred by a man that knows how to balance a pedigree. Tremendous young dog that showed none of the negatives from Aly. I have considered breeding to this dog, but do worry about Aly (because of the handler softness I have seen). 

Something else you need to watch from Aly is small males. I didn't get that in my Javir litter, but did in the other. 

I got to talk a lot about Aly when I was in Germany with a man who knew him and had worked him on a number of occasions. He changed my mind about the dog. Up until that point I had avoided him or just tolerated him in a pedigree mostly due to hear-say and one yucky Aly son I had seen.


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## Freestep

lhczth said:


> They tend to want to please almost too much which doesn't always fit with my personality.  They tend to be handler sensitive. Luckily Elena doesn't shut down, get confused or get sulky which is the issue I always had with the handler sensitivity I didn't like in many of the DDR dogs.


That makes sense, although I tend to see biddability and softness as two different things. They do often occur together, but I've known dogs that were both biddable to the handler and hard to their environment, if that make sense. I love a dog that wants to do whatever I ask, simply because I ask it, and only tries harder if given a correction or null reward.

OTOH I've known dogs that were extremely soft, but also stubborn and pouty, not biddable at all. Thankfully, most GSDs are not like that, but I've seen it a lot in Goldens.


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## Vandal

I will simply say this. I think, comments about what a dog is or was like,( spoken by people who saw and worked them), rather than the rest of the pedigree talk, is far more useful. However, you have to be someone who understands dogs and how behaviors can be passed , ( meaning not exactly in the same way as they are displayed by the parents), i.e..... It does not surprise me when I see a somewhat "edgy" dog in protection, produce softness. 

Also, you have to understand how training plays into all of this. The dogs being discussed that were so far back in the pedigree, saw a totally different method of training than most of the dogs today. What people saw in those dogs, they saw during that training. Nowadays, as a general rule, people simply do not understand how to work dogs in "protection". I don't see many helpers who can really "impress" a dog, so, what you see in many of the dogs now, is completely skewed by that fact. I have about quit training in SchH because of it, it is all just way too frustrating and no where near as enjoyable as it used to be.

If you think protection is equal to the other phases in SchH, you don't know dogs . THAT is where you see the true character of a dog but you sure don't see it the way many are worked nowadays. It is the training that is skewing people's ability to REALLY see who the dogs are and what they produce. I have worked dogs who looked like total crap, only to watch them completely transform when the right work was done....meaning helper work that was worthy of a real GSD. 

Used to be there were people who had an understanding of the training and how it put what we want to see, (or not see), in a GSD, on display. Now , that is mostly not the case. Like it or not, those are the facts.


PS, even some of the "sport dogs", ( which really sounds more like an insult than a way to inform), still have what we like to see. However, that side of the dog is mostly left to lie dormant by the training .


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## cliffson1

That's what I'm talking about Lisa....with the 3-4 in Fenga I look at the 2-3 on Aly from a different perspective.


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## BlackJack

My pup, is 5,5-4 on Grim and 5-5 on Cordon. He is just now starting to settle down and my feet at the computer, 2-3 months ago, he would be at my feet unhooking the computer. Great hunt drive, I have watched him search for a ball for 30 minutes before I pulled him off of it. Zero barks at strangers, just stares at them with complete focus till they leave. Even though he has never growled or barked at a stranger, people go out of their way to avoid coming near him on walks, I can't explain it. With our other one on walks, strangers come up and try to pet her without asking.



Obedience is very good, zero food/toy aggression with our other GSD.

When I get a chance in the next month or two, I am going to take him to get his hips prelimed.

Immo Jipo-Me - German Shepherd Dog


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