# Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behavior!



## Smy3pitas (Jan 26, 2006)

Okay, I need some help. Sarge is 15 mths old. He is our second GSD. Shad died on Memorial of 2008 and between that and a roller coaster of sad events, we were extremely devestated, as Shadow was only 7.5 yrs old. We bought Sarge from a breeder, and I got suckerd. We were told he was 8 weeks, and shown the parents (who were on sight) papers, we were told the papers were on the way,blah blah. . . got home, talked to breeder once, and have never been able to get him again. Does NOT answere phone or call back. We came to find out, he was only 5.5 wks old, (I know I know. . . .tooooo young.) Okay, that was last June. We have 3 kids, there friends and more friends (a pool) so there was an immense amount of socialization. We have been to obed. training, walks, adults around, kids everywhere. 
When he was about 3.5 months old we were walking and 1 then 2 boxers came flying out of the house and atacked him. He had no teeth (baby teeth fell out) and he cried as the 2 dogs attacked. we finally got them off of him, the owner showed us shot papers, as they just got them from PAWS 1 week ago. Police were there, and we looked at Sarge and he had a few cuts, but we just left. Went to vet the next a.m. and were told physically he was okay. Months passed and all seemed okay. We work with him, walked him everyday, practice NILIF. Starting this spring WOW. . . dog aggression!!! He barks then runs behind my husband and wines. When we walk now (July) when a dog is near, I tell him heal, easy and things are getting better in that respect. It went one step further, and in June, he got out of our back yard, and a neighbor we do not get along with screamed dog dog dog!!! run kids run! and the kids in the next back yard ran and screamed causing him to go into the back yard and run with them. He was running towards a Mom and got her on her back thigh. I feel that it was NOT agression, more of an uncontroled "teenager pup". The gal said she was okay, he did break skin, but she said she was okay. The Grandma called the police and the ambulance came. . . .he was all up to date on shots, so 10 days at home he spent. I love my dog, BUT SAFETY is first and foremost. Fastfoward. . . I work with him daily, all the normal stuff, he is excercised plenty between walking and ball playing and training. (all with our kids too). My friend comes over to pick up my daughter, he is on leash sitting down in foyer, and friend comes in. We talk. . . .Sarge is calm, his tail is wagging across floor (he is sitting) and his ears are slightly back and Rick puts hand out and Sarge smells it and is okay for a few moments then freakishly. . . . Sarge jumps up and growls at him. WHAT THE ??!!##2##@? My son takes him the other day walking around the block. A lady comes out who loves dogs, and talks to DS. Sarge is wagging and she puts hand out, and he is fine and then a few moments later GROWL AND LUNGE! He is neutered. I am sick from this. We have stopped the kids taking him. There is no rhyme or reason as to his actions. I have read every message on here. I know about the muzzle. 
My question is. . . do you all think this stems or could have stemmed from the attack as a pup or coming home way too soon? I am sick about this because if it is, it is all human error, and me being so blind sided because I just wanted a pup to fill the deep hole in my heart and was not on my game. When he was attacked, I was just happy he was not hurt physically, but never thought about emotionally. 
What would you all do? Please, I know my mistakes. . . What should I do to make this better?


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

IMO you should get to a behaviorist ASAP before this gets any worse and he ends up having to be put down.
Something is triggering his attacks and it sounds like fear aggression but I'm no expert and I can't see him. 
I would go get help fast. 
Beware who you go to, make sure they know what they're doing.
Good luck.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

Have you taken him to a vet recently? I would take him and get a full check-up and bloodwork first to rule out any physical causes for his behavior (such as eyesight problems, thyroid issues, or pain.)


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

Is he wearing a muzzle..? I read "I have read every message on here. I know about the muzzle. " But I don't know what you mean by it... And no offense at ALL but I had a hard time following your writing style, so I did skip a bit, you may have mentioned using a muzzle on him. Not your fault, I have bad eyes. 

If he is in a situation that he can come into contact with people that do not live with you are you are not 100% certain he is fine with, muzzle him.
I don't like it much, but it's better to have him a bit unhappy and have people point and say "Oooh that's a mean doggy." than have a random toddler run up to you (I have this happen several times on walks, untrained kids run at your dogs no matter what you say and pet them) and get bitten in the face because he startled your dog. Then you will likely have a lawsuit on your hands, an injured child, and possibly a dead dog. 

I agree with getting his Thyroid checked and complete health check, and if he passes get in touch with a behaviorist...

I really am sorry about your situation, it's certainly a hard one to be in.


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## Smy3pitas (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

Sorry about my writing. I just got started and could not stop. Regarding the muzzle, no I have not gotten one and I know it is the safest for everyone, it just makes me so upset as to how this happened. I do have an appointment for Monday for thyroid testing. He is also having horrible itching( has progressed) to chewing his skin, and his coat is Very thin. I have him on Natural Balance~duck&potatoes for about 4 wks, which has seemed to help him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

It could be thyroid. Banshee's hair came out by the handful and her behavior is very unpredictable if her meds are off. 

One day my friend / obedience trainer was over to visit...Banshee was fine the entire time she was here and as my friend was leaving attacked her leg from behind without any warning whatsoever.

It could just be a nervous dog too. Is there any way you can find out more about the parents?

Being afraid of dogs is different than viewing ppl as a threat. I can understand the scenario where the lady got bit as everyone was screaming and running. Somebody had to be control and since no human was taking that point then he did. 

The next incidences could be related to the first and maybe it's just something you have to undo but it bothers me that there is NO warning before he lunges.

Personally, I would try to contact a good trainer/behaviorist immediately for them to evaluate him. It never hurts to get all the information you can instead of waiting.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

Poor guy. I'm glad Natural Balance is helping. What was he eating before?


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## Smy3pitas (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

Oh I had Sarge on Royal Cain, Gold Wolf and one other food, cant remember. The vet appointment is at 10:30 and we are doing a thyroid panal. He actually seemed to get worse over the weekend and he had NO other food! He barely has any hair, it is so thin under his tail there. He is sooooo itchy, that when I throw his ball, at times, he actually has to stop and itch before he can go get it. That, for Sarge is itchy! I have tried Benedryl but 1 pill does not do too much and 2 pills makes him look like a drug addict, all he does is sleep and barely keep his eyes open. The aggression is still there, although not with us. I feel like I am walking on egg shells, and I know this will sound bad, but I almost hope we find something from this test, so it can be fixed. Thank you!


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

Michelle,

Take a look at the raw feeding section of the board (or BARF). If done right, raw is not hardly any more expensive than a quality kibble - if at all. It may help.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

A physically sick dog may act out in many ways, one of them being aggression. You're grumpy when you're in pain, right? It sounds to me like first and foremost he needs to have his health issues dealt with. He's most definitely got something health-wise that's not right and may be more than oen thing. Allergies come to mind as one possible problem, and thyroid is at the top of my own list for what you've explained. But there could also be other issues.

Some of the breeders on this boards might be able to help you with contacting the breeder or handling the issue of him selling the pups way to soon. I would guess they'd be REAL interested in learning who this is - although I'd not post names directly on the boards here, PM works nicely for that. They would know (I don't) if there's a place to report disreputable breeders or something that might be able to be done about that part of things. I myself would love to see breeders like this just absolutely squashed.


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## Smy3pitas (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

I took Sarge to vet. He really did not think the thyroid was the best test because Sarge is only 15mths, skinny and full of energy. So, they gave him a steriod shot to see if it was allergies or not. On the up side, his itchies stopped abit by late last night. Regarding his aggression. I firmly now believe it is fear based. We had company last night to watch Bachelorette and a friend who has 4 dogs and works for PAWS came over. She got down to pet Sarge and I said Please be careful as I do not trust him. . . well I am not sure if it was her confidence or what, but he did okay as there was no grumbling at first, but strangely enough about 1 hour into the night, he barked and grumbeled at her. Ofcourse, he was on leash and I told him quiete and he did lay down, and she ignored him and she left with him wagging, and licking her hand. also, 2 nights ago we went on a walk with a little doggie and by the end he was doing ok being by another dog, (of course it was a female and we laughed saying she whipped him into shape).

Regarding the breeder, I feel so stupid and uninformed. When we bought Sarge, by Shadow just died about 8 days ago, and my Mom died less then a year before, and we had many other rollercoaster of emotions one after another for a while. Sarge by NO means replaced Shadow, but I was looking for silliness and a puppy to fill some of my sadness. BoY did He EVER! I was fool enough. . . he told me the AKC papers were on the way and here were the parents, which were on premise. Oh, I fell in love with him. The breeder, I swear told me his bday was April 4, as we got him on June 1, making him just over 8 wks. but of course he was on the small side and I kept calling and calling and just one time he called back saying no I told you April 24, which made him 5 wks and 3 days. Even then, I did not realize the reprocusions down the line with this. I cannot get a hold of him, I have called the vet who originally check the pups, and I have to raise my hand and say I was just really gullable and unaware. On the upside, I do feel that at least he came to us and I am desperately trying to make good on him. We are going again the obedience starting next wk. (Aug) and we are doing very well with the NILIF. We have tightened up the house rules with him and this is definately a family project. 
I agree with you about the breeder. It just sickens me with Sarge because I really feel that this was human error regarding leaving his mom too soon and getting attacked. If any other ideas, please shout out. 
John, I did look at the raw feeding for some time. Like I said he is on Natural balance/duck. Reading this board makes raw seem so easy yet, my vet told me that he always sees disasters with dogs when people do it, that they do not get enough of vit/minerals blahblah. I am so confused.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

Michelle,

I'm sorry, but go to another vet. The words that need to come out of your mouth is "I don't care what you think. I did not ask what you think. I asked you to run the test. I am a paying customer that has to live with this dog 24/7. You are someone that sees him once or twice a year max. After telling me what you think - you get to be done with it. I get to deal with the reprocussions for the next year. RUN THE TEST!!!"

On top of that, I run from any Vet that tells me I'm going to harm my dogs by feeding raw. That conversation goes like this "So let me get this straight. I have fed myself for my entire adult life and managed to get enough vitamins and minerals. I have raised (insert number here) kids, and they managed to get enough vitamins and minerals. But according to you, I'm not as smart, and do not care as much as companies like Purina or Iams that fill a bag with crap and market it like crazy???" This board is filled with THRIVING dogs that eat raw. My two have never EVER eaten kibble in their lives. Am I guaranteeing it will be best for your dog? No. But it is worth a try considering your current issues. 

If it is the thyroid (and the only reason I would suspect it is he comes from a questionable breeder and is exibiting more than one symptom), then you have at least part of your answers. If not, it's allergies and you REALLY need to try raw feeding. Once your dog starts to be healthy, then you can start working his head (which you already are with the new class).


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## Smy3pitas (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

Believe me I have seen the raw results looking at board. This is why it is always good to share experiences because you see it from such a different view. The vet just said, he is young, skinny and full of energy, I think the test would be wasting $. Said thing is. . . many places recomend this particular vet I go to! 
Off to look at Raw.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*



> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDMichelle,
> 
> I'm sorry, but go to another vet. The words that need to come out of your mouth is "I don't care what you think. I did not ask what you think. I asked you to run the test. I am a paying customer that has to live with this dog 24/7. You are someone that sees him once or twice a year max. After telling me what you think - you get to be done with it. I get to deal with the reprocussions for the next year. RUN THE TEST!!!"


This is something we all need to remember with our pets.
We're paying them to assist in the care of our pets, and it's our money that is being spent not theirs.

When a vet gives me their .02¢ that it's not needed all it takes is "but it gives me peace of mind" and the test is done.

I'm not sure how long it would have taken Dante to be Dx'd with Giardia if I hadn't requested the antigen. It's more expensive and so the vet mentioned that and wondered aloud if it was needed (2 negative "regular" tests) but she had it run. Positive. Now my vet clinic acturally runs the antigen as it's main Giardia test


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## meisha98 (Aug 27, 2008)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

My vet is up to date and also is not comfortable with a total raw diet. She would like the food cooked at least a little. There are just too many superbugs and germ resistant strains of things coming along that we don't even know about yet as bacteria and bugs are constantly evolving and changing. E coli and salmonella could do the same. She has no problem with nearly raw. Just make sure you're killing some/most of the microbes and things so you aren't overloading your dogs immune system by them having to do it. Our dogs have been domesticated and don't have the same exact systems their ancestors did- it is good for them to eat close to how they did but exact is asking a little much from their systems. There are good natural foods out there as options now too. There is amiddle ground between raw and kibble junk.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*



> Originally Posted By: KimcMAMy vet is up to date and also is not comfortable with a total raw diet. She would like the food cooked at least a little. There are just too many superbugs and germ resistant strains of things coming along that we don't even know about yet as bacteria and bugs are constantly evolving and changing. E coli and salmonella could do the same. She has no problem with nearly raw. Just make sure you're killing some/most of the microbes and things so you aren't overloading your dogs immune system by them having to do it. Our dogs have been domesticated and don't have the same exact systems their ancestors did- it is good for them to eat close to how they did but exact is asking a little much from their systems. There are good natural foods out there as options now too. There is amiddle ground between raw and kibble junk.


NO. This very line of thinking is exactly how you screw up a diet at home. I cannot partially cook meat with bones in it because they become unsafe to feed. If I cannot feed bones, I cannot feed a balanced diet unless I start supplimenting - and even then I'm just guessing. 

Your vet is not comfortable. Your vet is also not knowledgeable. My dogs have lived very healthy lives while eating raw for 5.5 and 3 years respectively. Many breeders now wean litters onto raw food and have done so for multiple generations now. If a vet told me that I would ask them to cite the studies that show this to be true. There are none. The reason? Nobody will pay for it. Sorry, but when I hear a vet tell me that along with trying to push every shot in the world on me every single year I want to stick my foot up their backside. And I tell them, right before I leave and never come back.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*



> Quote: She would like the food cooked at least a little.


BUT did she give you temperature guidelines ie X internal temperature will 'kill' Y amount of a,b & c pathogens but will not affect d,e & f pathogens?


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*



> Originally Posted By: Alto BUT did she give you temperature guidelines ie X internal temperature will 'kill' Y amount of a,b & c pathogens but will not affect d,e & f pathogens?


No, but she gave a half off coupon for Science Diet!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*



> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> No, but she gave a half off coupon for Science Diet!



















to us both


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## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

For what it's worth, my Annie turned out to be allergic to most of the "good" stuff in high quality dog food -- potatoes, wheat grass, aloe, eggs, fish protein.... So even the duck and potatoes might be a problem. 

You really want tests done by someone who knows how to read them and who can suggest other approaches based on symptoms and treatments other than pills (when appropriate) -- such as diet modification. Even if you strongarm your vet into doing tests, he might not know how to interpret or follow up on them.

I was very glad I took my girl to a wholistic vet who looked at the whole picture and who did a panel of tests including food allergies. Thyroid tests alone wouldn't have gotten us anywhere.

I like the idea of a trainer, too. I recognize that you're in a really difficult position in terms of getting all this done, but you're dealing with a really serious problem. A good trainer can sometimes spot what's a physical issue and what's a training/handling issue based on their experience. (Sometimes it's both)

About the breeder -- we all get taken at some point. Chalk it up to experience and don't beat yourself up over it. 

Good luck, Michaela and Annie


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*



> Originally Posted By: Barb E.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In retrospect my joke was very close to the line if not over it. Some things just get me worked up. Certain vets fall into that category. Heck, so do certain doctors. I know Kim was just passing along what her vet said. Nothing personal to her meant at all.

Parsifal also makes some great points.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*



> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Barb E.
> ...


I knew that and I still posted as well - That's why I gave us both the









I also meant nothing personal - I have no doubt that there are things about my vet that some people would hate - but I like him


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## Smy3pitas (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

Good Morning.

Between dentist, sport physicals and driving to kids to work, I took along time looking at raw. (my 3 teens made fun of me telling me I sometimes think more about what I am going to feed Sarge then I do them~ hahah I do bahhhhhhhhbhahhhh) Just Kidding! I feel like reading about raw is almost to easy to do. I go major grocery shopping on Friday. I really want to change this as the steriod shot did do wonders for him, as now he is so calm being he is not itching all the time and all his sores are healing, but I know he cannot stay on this. My Shadow had lupus and took prednizone and I know the effects of the drug.
I am looking foward to going back to obedience training again with him. I have been going to this place for a while now, (went with last GSD Shad) Funny part is when I do go there with Sarge, he is on his best behavior (he knows) just like our kids are when they are by grandmas house  
Im glad I brought all this up as like I said before, it gave me a different perspective.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

So many dogs eat poop (when they get the chance) with no ill effects. Imagine the amount of bugs in poop. I asked one of the raw opponent vets whether he would also suggest cooking the poop. He did not appreciate my humor.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

I agree that a thyroid test needs to be done. I would do this a different Vet also! There is a Vet here who is very recommended by locals that I would NEVER go to. I know this because I worked for him and saw it first hand. Trust your gut on this! Raw is a great idea, or at least grain free. 
Next, definitely get a trainer to help you with the aggression issues. I would not use a group class for this type of problem. I hope things continue to improve for you!


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*



> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDMichelle, I'm sorry, but go to another vet. The words that need to come out of your mouth is "I don't care what you think. I did not ask what you think. I asked you to run the test. I am a paying customer that has to live with this dog 24/7. You are someone that sees him once or twice a year max. After telling me what you think - you get to be done with it. I get to deal with the reprocussions for the next year. RUN THE TEST!!!"


I have to agree with Michelle. My vet never even mentioned thyroid, it was me who dug up the info. Age really doesn't matter, he's plenty old enough to test. Just because we pay our vets does not mean they are Kings and or Queens that should go unquestioned. Just because our vets are schooled and trained does not mean they know it all or will think of it all ... they're human first. 

We as pet owners have every right to request any test we want, as was mentioned we live with these dogs. When I brought up thyroid testing to my vet she looked at me like "are you crazy" I ignored her and we proceeded. Let's just say she was a little more than surprised to get the results and find out I was right.

You have to remember that there are still and always will be "old school" vets and doctors etc in this world. Sometimes the parents and the pet owners are more up on what's going on in the world than the professionals who are set in their ways and don't keep up with the newest news and procedures. Your vet, your doctor, you're whatever, doesn't have to BE old to be old school, either.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

ROFL, RebelGSD!!









Be sure to get that thyroid test done-- even if he is skinny, energetic, etc. The agression may be solved with a simple, relatively inexpensive daily pill if thyroid issues are the cause. Raysmom's dog only showed some fur issues, and still tested positive for thyroid, I think. Not all hypothyroid dogs LOOK hypothyroid. Be sure to insist on that test. If he is at the poutside end of normal range, that too, may be significant.

Please look at the before and after/changes on raw thread in the raw section. Grimm changed very much on raw.

This is no guarrantee, but Grimm became MUCH calmer in the house on raw food as opposed to a premium grain-free kibble. After about 3 days on raw, it was very noticeable-- calmer indoors. Please just be sure to start raw without any variety, just boring chicken MM and RMB for example, in the correct proportions. http://www.rawdogranch.com has the best info!


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## Smy3pitas (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: Long Post.. . Very confusing, aggressive behav*

Well I think I have had some good changes! I have Sarge on Natural Balance ~Duck for about 1month. He was doing really well until we were bbqing and the grill went out and he stoled 3 chicken legs., I swear. . . 24hours later, he was chewing and itching crazy. I really believe he is allergic to chicken. Can it be? Funny enough, all the food he was always on had chicken in it. 
I am going to the trainer 2 times a week. We have befriended 2 of our friends with dogs and have gone on many walks with him. In the last 1 and 1/2 wks he has been calmer. We have made a point to REALLY take the time to bring him everywhere "again" as we did before~ and work with him. It can be done. IF WE WANT IT BAD ENOUGH! We brought him home and we are responsible as I deeply feel all that is wrong with him is due to human error. (me included) So, YES!!! the right food for a dog is a big issue in my opinion. and practice practice practice!!


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