# The best ways to better our breed?



## Caitlin (Mar 28, 2005)

I'm choosing to post this in this area because even though rescue will come up in some of it, the main point is to think of the best ways to better the breed, therefore, I chose this section. Hopefully I made the most sensible choice.









Now, many people have varied opinions on how to better the breed, how to decrease the number of GSDs in shelters, how to weed out irresponsible breeders, and how to educate the public on puppy mills, pet stores, and misconceptions of the breed. Some agree with spay and neuter laws, some don't. Some agree with making the long coats into a separate breed, some don't. Some believe in rescue only, some don't want to rescue out of fear of getting a weak nerved dog, etc. There are good points on every issue, and usually points to also, counter those points. There are so many different opinions on this topic, it can get confusing to keep up with, and many times these opinions come up scattered all over the board in relation to many separate issues. 

So here is my idea for a discussion:
*In your personal opinion, what do you believe would be the best way to better our breed? This may include why you think certain laws should be in place and why not. Or whether or not some faults should be allowed or not. Or whether to keep the standard as it is and let breeders create their own breeds (such as long coat German Shepherds, white Shepherds, etc). What do you think is the best way to decrease the number of dogs in shelters? What do you think we should do when it comes to educating the public on irresponsible breeders? What do you think should be done to eradicate these breeders?

While it may be impossible at this point, how do you personally think we could save our breed from the downward spiral of bad breeding practices and how do you think we could decrease the number of GSDs ending up in shelters to die? Most importantly, how can we act on these ideas?* 

I'm looking for serious discussion on these issues. I'm hoping it will open up many new ideas to everyone. Please, no bickering. It'd be nice to see different opinions on how to tackle these issues.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

First off - I hate the phrase "better the breed". I believe with every breeding, you should strive to meet the standard (or your interpretation of it for your type!







) and improve upon your present dogs by complementing their good points and compensating for the qualities that are needed to balance them out.

Some things I would like to see - along with flying pigs of course!

Limit the frequency in which a female can have litters and register them. No more breeding females every heat until they come up empty 2 or 3 times. GSDCA institute a requirement of a minimum of CGC and hip/elbow x-rays and passes that on to AKC for registration minimum requirements for litters.

Don't support PETA and HSUS - they are anti breeding not pro selective breeding.

Breeders NOT indiscriminately selling to anyone with $$$$. Refusing to sell pups on open papers to wannabe breeders - heck refusing to sell pups on limited papers to people who already show a lack of responsibility by breeding unregistered dogs (one of whom may HAVE limited papers! thinking of a recent inquiry I had where the potential buyer {wanted Hawke!!} was proudly selling UNpapered pups!) 

Attempting to educate every inquiry for a pup as to good breeding practices, and the importance of quality selective breeding as opposed to those 400-500 buck pups in Sunday's paper.

ahhh - could go on, but have to run!

Lee


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

**Post removed by Admin. Remember to be respectful of members. Posts that are insulting or intended to incite conflict are not allowed.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:In your personal opinion, what do you believe would be the best way to better our breed?


Require all dogs pass hip/elbow certifications and other possible health clearances BEFORE they are allowed to be *REGISTERED*, then require a working test BEFORE they are allowed to hit the show ring, and make it a SERIOUS working test, not a "points competition." Ditch all other standards EXCEPT the SV standard and style, including AKC. National breed clubs should all be overseen by the SV and the USA breed club should follow SV rules. Working tests should include herding of a certain degree, police, SAR, schutzhund, or perhaps a good evaluation by a qualified helper as a minimum plus an expanded temperament test including gunshots. The temperament test should include some way to prove that these dogs can do the job of "pet" just fine (not aggressive to people who don't deserve the aggression).

We can dream, right?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Removed by Admin.


We need shows to ensure our dogs look like GSDs and move like GSDs but we need to stop the "conformation showing and trotting are EVERYTHING" mindset.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Separate the breed into working GSDs and show-pet lines GSDs, they are enough separated right now and being the same breed is more semantic than anything else right now. That way truly working lines breeders can breed working dogs without watering them to fill the couch potato requirements of many (not all) pet homes and the Show People can have their poodles in GSDs costume as they want.



> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarRemoved by Admin.


I agree, but as long as they keep their hands off of the dogs I like, they can play their own game with their own separated breed.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I think that the problem with indiscriminate breeding is one of ignorance, and it runs deep. 
There was a time when I considered it, and I mentioned it to my vet. I did that in case he saw something glaring that would not make her a breeding candidate.
His response was "good idea- you could get some of your money back". I didn't understand the significance of his response ata the time, but I do now.
If I didn't come here I wouldn't know ANYTHING at all about breeding. I know very little, but enough to know that I have no business doing it. I think many BYB's do it honestly because they don't know any better.
I think that there is a certain element that cares so little that even AKC papers are optional. I don't know what can be done about those people. But I agree that increasing standards within the AKC would at least call people's attention to the difference in an "average" dog or an "outstanding" dog.
Maybe something like a graduated system, so that there is an absolute minimum for a litter to be eligeable for registration, like OFA and CGC on both parents. Those dogs would get a C. Then if you put more titles on the dog the rank might go to a B. Getting an A would be reserved for truly outstanding examples of the breed. If a system like this were in place, the uneducated people would maybe do the research to find out why there are different grades of litters. The only reason I knew to look at these things is from being here. This would make everyone know there ARE differences.
I think the uneducated are the ones to reach- the heartless are a lost cause.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Max Gunner what a poor response to a great question. 
Diana M what a well thought out response.

I personally think no one should threaten other people even in jest, I know of many so called working lines that are just plain vicious, not all, so should I then say kill those breeders? Of course not, a well bred dog is a well bred dog. Your idea of what that is is different than mine but I don't advocate any murders. 

Now my response, I think education is key. We must have all dogs all breeds, pass basic temperment and obedience tests. These may be modified by breed but real basic. These are now allowed to be pets. Then only after extensive health tests and working and showing should a dog be allowed to be bred. And any person who doesn't follow these rules should be severely fined. This would take out most byb and puppy mills. Make the fines very substantial so no one makes money from this. The fines should then go to rescues, shelters or vets to offset for those that can't afford it.

The reason the dog must be shown is I'm tired of so called purebreds that resemble anything but, we have some I would swear were Mals, then some Malamute and great dane types, My ideal is a shepherd who herds first, that was the original purpose, defends the family and plays with the children. He must be able to trot all day,( I will never personally test this), and still play catch, be totally approachable and quiet unless there is an obvious threat, not someone walking past the owner or the car. Then when the sick or young or special needs person comes they will stand quietly head lowered and allow all pats. That is a German Shepherd.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarRemoved by Admin.


Well, you wanna start with me??

I plan to show Mauser in the breed ring (IF they allow coats back in). I happen to LIKE showing in the breed ring. I think it's fun, I like the people I've met there and I like meeting all the dogs.

If it's not your cup of tea - fine. But don't paint all show people with the same brush - that's the same as BSL.

And what about the sport breeders who breed a dog so high strung it's cannot be a house dog?

You need balance in EVERYTHING. If the dog isn't built correctly it can't work. IF it can't work who cares how it's built?

You can to better the breed? EDUCATE THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

This will get rid of puppymills. Stop pet stores from selling puppies. Stop BSL crap. Better EVERY breed in that people will only buy from good breeders.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:And what about the sport breeders who breed a dog so high strung it's cannot be a house dog?


Exactly. Some sport dogs can't even live in the house.







That's not a GSD, either.

Some show people across other breeds take care to ensure their dogs can work and show. There are some dogs in the gundog group that are champions AND junior/master hunters. Not everyone's bad in the showring. Not everyone in SV showing wants to scrape by with a dog that fleetingly bites the sleeve and not everyone in AKC breeds hockwalkers. First and foremost, everyone needs to get together on health, then we need to make sure their temperaments are stable and solid, then we can concentrate on ability and structure.

We should make it illegal to sell puppies in pet stores. Also, AKC and UKC should not permit registration of pups that are sold at pet stores. Also, maybe AKC could stamp this on their pedigrees: "A pedigree does not guarantee the health nor quality of a dog." They'll never do those, though; they'd lose too much business.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Good post Lauri. 

I'd like to see the breed separated in AKC - american lines (who barely resemble my working line dogs), working line and the whites who can be lovely and deserve their own designation (but I understand why that's a can of worms.)

Education like Lauri said. How many people come here looking for a breeder and don't even know where to begin explaining what lines they want. They don't want a line per say, they want a specific type of dog who can be found in either category. A dog with a solid temperament who's healthy and smart. 

At least the people who come here for a recommendation willing to get educated and aren't just looking in the sunday paper for the best price. Even if they go with a breeder that some people here might find lesser, they're still better off than going with that guy who was breeding 2 rescues together (who thought he was hot snot just for having a website, I could put together a website in an hour, less time than it would take me to get to the shelter and get 2 dogs to breed... wait, stopping the rant now)


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

Try this out. I posted this to a show list and can you imagine the response?

_Wasn't there an old adage about not using a dog till he was five or six? Think I read it in an old time gsd book. Some of these things, there's just no way to tell until that age, and there's no test for it. What if there was no test for DM or EPI, and they don't manifest until 3 years or older sometimes. By then you've bred a litter or two, or used the dog for stud several times. Not on purpose, but the damage is done. Whose scrapping their program or recalling all of those pups? 

Best I can recommend, even with disclosure (of health problems in lines) is to test for everything there is and don't breed anything until it is 3-4 years old, tests all the pups, breed only the unaffected ones, pray their not carriers, wait till their 3+, test their pups...

It would sure take a long time to get anything accomplished this way, but I've never been one for quick fixes. I don't even think newbies should breed until they've been in the breed for 3+ years; following my own advice, if I had started out with a bitch she would have been too old to have a litter now! I don't know if any condition can be eradicated, but with would take some seriously stringent practices and culling to minimize the problems._


No, I won't stop showing, not I don't want a split breed, yes I have a working line type dog, no he is not at all like my show line, no my show line is not an air headed lazy hock walker, yes he can herd, yes I've watched him run and play for at least three hours tirelessly, yes he has a better grip than my working line, yes my working line has more food problems than my show line, the working line will be neutered, the show line will be bred...


How can we better the breed? First we can stop arguing, and putting down each other. Without being condescending, tell me what you think we should do. 

I could say something hateful like how I think working lines are ugly, and well, you've already said something to that extent, but unless we come to some type of plan, this is all a bunch of useless rhetoric. 

Let's come to some agreement, make a plan, carry it out, disseminate the info, because like it or not, I am the next generation of show breeders, and if I can change just a few others who will go with me, then little by little, we may be able to save our breed, which ever style pleases you.

At least before the ARister's wipe us out completely.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally, I think people in general need to think more objectively about a lot of things. I see a lot of stuff I don't necessarily like even from good breeders. People get sucked into (or are victim's of) politics, people no matter how much experience begin to get kennel-blind. Of course everyone loves their dogs and wants them to succeed and reach full potential. I just wish more people could set all of that aside and as part of a commitment for bettering the breed, look at their dogs thoroughly and objectively. I'm pretty new to this breed and all aspects of showing, training, and competing in performance events but even I have heard things about people and their dogs that make me wrinkle my face, yet no one DOES anything and people still get in bed with each other and keep buying dogs from "top" dogs that are really throwing health conditions or breeders that would stud their dog out to anyone who pays.

Also I think there is such a huge spectrum of how fancier's evaluate a dog's temperament a drive. It confuses a lot of people. I hear people say things like their dog is breedworthy because it can herd, it has drive, it is obedient. Well there's a LONG way between my dog herding three sheep with an AHBA judge and a friend's dog earning the HGH 12 times. Sure, both dogs CAN herd, but what is really breedworthy? Personally, I just can't buy it that most of the performance titles are really breedworthy tests, mainly because I don't believe they evaluate drive and to me that is a staple of the breed. This is also why I will never purchase a dog unless I have seen at least one of the parents train and work.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

What I want is for the GSDCA to STEP UP and stop allowing some of the crap that goes on.

They have two DIFFERENT select titles because people couldn't even agree that health testing should be MANDATORY!

They have "Select" for animals without OFAs (and some of these Selects are 3-4 years of age), and "Select Excellent" for those with OFAs done.

I personally don't believe that a dog should even be eligible for GV/GVx if they don't have those minimal health tests done. I also believe that at the bare minimum dogs should be required to have one basic title in agility, obedience, or rally, AND be temperament tested.


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

I agree. You should be able to go select without OFA. I don't think you should breed before the age of two, yet there are several top dogs from top lines who sired pups before they were 15mos. 

TT should be a must.

The recent GVX wasn't even a champion when she was selected, and although she is a lovely sable, I do find that odd. 


The problem is that they are catering to what seems like a dying venue, and they feel if they impose more restrictions they will loose what they have. Quite frankly, lots of people are leaving the GSDCA, and the AKC and registering with the UKC.

And while I do enjoy UKC events, they are registering and giving U-CH titles away to dogs who barely look like gsds, with faults that would never stand in an AKC arena, or any for that matter, and are blantant disqualifications to the standard. 

Once again--- AKC does not write standards, the breed club does. The GSDCA did not change the standard because they wanted to, the changes are resulting from differences of translation.

The orginal gsd's that came from Germany completed and won in the AKC ring. At some point, people started liking the slightly more angulated German dog, some P named dog, and bred heavily on him, changing the look. They wanted more angulation, because they interpreted motion as the pinnacle of the standard. 

This lead to you know what, but through that time the standard never actually changed. Do people ever read both standards, or do they just blindly follow they rhetoric they hear and jump on the I hate amer. dogs band wagon? The angle is wrong, because of where the amer are measuring from. If you change it to read what the ger.'s say, people will still have their own interpretation. 

Don't blame them for changing it, blame them for not enforcing it.


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

Being objective, I don't buy that SCH titles are the only objective test of breed worthiness. 

Train and work in what? There seems to be only one type of work you will except, so why don't we all just stop breeding or dogs now, and end this discussion. 

It seems that the working line people believe that they are the sole protectors of the breed, and everyone else is unworthy of the name German Shepherds. 

If this is going to be another split the breed, amer shepherds are all crap, the german way is the only way, tell me now.

If you really want to talk about bettering the breed, you can pm me and we can discuss this like adults on my forum. 

We have to do this ourselves, the GSDCA is not going to do anything. They are not the SV, we are not Germany. The GSDCA has no power here. Individual breeders have power. Exhibitors have power. Owners have power.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Being objective, I don't buy that SCH titles are the only objective test of breed worthiness.


What trial other than schutzhund and similar trials tests a dog's ability to track, ability to obey, its agility, its temperament around people and dogs and stressful situations, its ability to cope under stress, its grip (this IS a sheep herder that is expected to bite and hold when necessary), its courage, its drive, and its aggression? Don't tell me that rally, agility, and competition obedience do those things. For purposes of this discussion, I am referring to schutzhund used as a breed test where the handler does the training and is an active participant in the training so both the training and trialing are used to evaluate a dog, not as a sports competition nor just getting the titles done and over with. If you're referring to how many people use schutzhund as a sport or as something to just hurry up and finish, then I'd agree with you there that there may be better ways (especially after some of those videos posted way back from the US siegers).

The only other true test of a true GSD would be HGH. Unfortunately there aren't very many places to do that. And of course real life work like PSD, serious SAR, working ranch dog, etc.

I do not think there is any way that a show title and a CGC and rally title or a collection of agility titles proves that a GSD is breedable. Nervebags can be conditioned to pass the CGC, and while agility certainly tests a dog to its limits, we're still missing the very real test of biting and fighting, and yes this breed DOES NEED AGGRESSION of the right type, and to have that aggression the dog must be very clear in the head, and there are unfortunately few tests out there for that besides schutzhund (and other similar trials) and HGH. 

For the sake of discussion what do people use to test if a GSD is breedworthy, including the good aggression that must exist in this breed?


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: chasethedogBeing objective, I don't buy that SCH titles are the only objective test of breed worthiness.
> 
> Train and work in what? There seems to be only one type of work you will except, so why don't we all just stop breeding or dogs now, and end this discussion.
> 
> ...


Nobody said Schutzhund was the only test. Some do think overall it's the best test to demonstrate the temperment qualities of the GSD according to the standard. 
I think there's an objection to purposefully breeding away from the standard. The German Shepherd is X, Y and Z. X and Y are OK, but you'd like Z to be replaced by Q. That's where the problem lies for me anyway. Differing degrees of X, Y and Z are understandable- but taking the dog away from the stated breed standard on purpose, or ignoring an unintended departure from the breed standard I don't agree with at all.
There are good and bad breeders in every line. THAT's where our focus should be, not in arguments about lines. Support the good breeders in every line, educate the public about the difference, and make sure when we have these discussions that we stay objective so that the message doesn't get lost.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Support the good breeders in every line, educate the public about the difference, and make sure when we have these discussions that we stay objective so that the message doesn't get lost.


Exactly! You don't have to have a working line to participate in schutzhund. If an American showline had great structure, moved well without exaggeration, had a great head, and also made the decoys think twice, that's fantastic! I don't really care WHAT line of GSD we're talking about here, but I *DO* care that breeding dogs from all lines are able to do what this breed was designed to do. If a GSD cannot handle a flock of hundreds of dog-savvy sheep, it's not a GSD. If a GSD clearly shows stress and fear at taking a bite on the sleeve or downright refuses, it's not a GSD. If it cannot live with the family, it's not a GSD. If it's 120 lbs lean with a sway back, it's not a GSD.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The best way to improve the breed,IMO, is for people to have KNOWLEDGE and Work their dogs. 
BTW, Diana, if this American Showline dog that has the attributes you listed is the only dog out of that litter that shows these traits and the others have very soft temperaments.....do you breed the dog based on your comments...Justcurious?
People who breed individual dogs that look and perform nice,without indepth knowledge of familial history, haven't got a clue and are not breeding out of knowledge...JMO! I don't care if they have titles or not...you must know the dogs ability and normal type of dog the dog's pedigree produces.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:BTW, Diana, if this American Showline dog that has the attributes you listed is the only dog out of that litter that shows these traits and the others have very soft temperaments.....do you breed the dog based on your comments...Justcurious?


Absolutely not. If that's the case, then this good dog is just a fluke and should be enjoyed for its own merits. A litter of nerve bags and one star? Clearly the genetic trend is toward dogs that should not be bred and the sire and dam are not a good match for each other. I'm no breeder of course, but if I had a great dog that I felt proved itself, then I'd look at its ancestry to see what the genetic record is. Is it pretty uniform or are there a lot of inconsistencies and surprises? How was hip production? Is this dog out of a repeat breeding where I can see what its full siblings are up to and how they're doing? Then I'd do all the same research for its potential mate's pedigree. 

Again, I'm glad I'm not breeding! The good breeders have their work cut out for them.







Even then, Nature can still throw a curve ball. Dog A and Dog B could have very strong pedigrees and be very strong themselves, yet they can yield a trainwreck when combined. Then sometimes traits appear that haven't been seen since several generations ago. There really is a lot to consider.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is where the Europeans have the advantage over us. They are able to keep the majority of their pups in their clubs or in their area. They see these pups grow up, work, get titled and are then able to make much more informed breeding decisions.


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## Caitlin (Mar 28, 2005)

Interesting answers so far, thanks everyone!

Can't post indepth right now, since I'm on my phone, but I think the main thing that needs to be done is educating the general public. Before I came to this board I had no CLUE getting a dog from a newspaper was a bad idea. How would I have known? No one ever told me. I don't think at all the majority of people who support unworthy breeders understand what they're doing, I think they simply have no clue.

I think another thing that needs to be done is to come up with another way of getting this information out. Many times I've tried talking my friends and family members out of getting a pet store or newspaper puppy. Also been a couple of times where I've tried discouraging breeding. I get the whole, "Oh well he'll make cute puppies so what's the problem?" It takes a long time to explain the problems behind these issues and a lot of times people just don't want to listen.

I'm at a loss as to what to do about that.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:What trial other than schutzhund and similar trials tests a dog's ability to track, ability to obey, its agility, its temperament around people and dogs and stressful situations, its ability to cope under stress, its grip (this IS a sheep herder that is expected to bite and hold when necessary), its courage, its drive, and its aggression? Don't tell me that rally, agility, and competition obedience do those things.


The point that many of you miss on both sides of the argument is that it is not really about the trialing or the titles -- it is about the training! It is thru training that we evaluate a dog's temperament and physical soundness-- titles are just the proof of training. Training stresses a dog's comfort zone and it is up to us to properly evaluate the dog's reaction to the stress.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:Well there's a LONG way between my dog herding three sheep with an AHBA judge and a friend's dog earning the HGH 12 times. Sure, both dogs CAN herd, but what is really breedworthy?


It is often easier to herd large groups of sheep than the small ones. Sheep are a flocking species and want to stay together in groups for safety. The bigger the group, the safer each sheep feels. And you don't have to do an HGH trial -- you can always do AKC's Course C which is based on the HGH. Besides, during training, you can work as many sheep as you have available -- after all, it is the training that is the most important, not the trial itself. My dogs often helped with chores or did set-out work for other dogs.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Quote:In your personal opinion, what do you believe would be the best way to better our breed? This may include why you think certain laws should be in place and why not. Or whether or not some faults should be allowed or not. Or whether to keep the standard as it is and let breeders create their own breeds (such as long coat German Shepherds, white Shepherds, etc).


Health test, health test, health test. And the overly sloped back present in the American line GSDs, IMO, should be discouraged.
I would love for there to be a law that breeders must follow, but there are lots of opinions on what a good breeder does and does not do.



> Quote:What do you think is the best way to decrease the number of dogs in shelters?


Encourage shelter and rescue adoption as well as reputable breeders. You know if everyone bought from good breeders, there wouldn't be many dogs in the shelters at all. Since good breeders screen their homes carefully.



> Quote:What do you think we should do when it comes to educating the public on irresponsible breeders?


Education. Tell people what not to to look for in a breeder and discourage BYB and puppy mill purchases.



> Quote:What do you think should be done to eradicate these breeders?


Educate enough people and we can take a lot of business away from the bad breeders.



> Quote:While it may be impossible at this point, how do you personally think we could save our breed from the downward spiral of bad breeding practices and how do you think we could decrease the number of GSDs ending up in shelters to die?


Educate people on responsible breeding. If someone wants to breed their GSD, educate them on how to do it right and tell them the complete truth.
Tell them not to just jump into breeding, but to actually do their research beforehand.



> Quote:Most importantly, how can we act on these ideas?


Get out there and spread the word to people.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:The point that many of you miss on both sides of the argument is that it is not really about the trialing or the titles -- it is about the training! It is thru training that we evaluate a dog's temperament and physical soundness-- titles are just the proof of training. Training stresses a dog's comfort zone and it is up to us to properly evaluate the dog's reaction to the stress.


Many of us do understand that it's not the titles, it's the _training_ that led to the titles. This is why I don't like send-away trainers nor would I want a pup from a breeder who buys dogs already titled from Germany. That the dog has a title is good, but I'd rather the breeder be the handler/trainer so the breeder can make a sound decision not based on the title, but based on what the dog has shown the handler during the training. Also, I'd like to know if the titles were earned on the home field with a known helper or a stranger helper at a field the dog never was on. That also makes a difference. Regardless, if the dog does not train in bitework that tests grip, courage, aggression, and clarity, how will that crucial part of the breed be truly known? When a dog is pushed to its limits is the time when it will show its true colors.

My contention really is that this breed is not a golden retriever. I see many "breeders" breeding calmer, softer, more sedate dogs to fill the market for people who enjoy the look of GSDs but not the full package. The GSD is NOT a breed for everyone, nor should it be, and breeding GSDs without proper aggression, drive, and energy, is simply not breeding GSDs. Those who get a title just because it's a requirement and either scrape by or buy them under the table are just as bad, as are those who forget the rest of the dog and just want to get on the podium.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMMy contention really is that this breed is not a golden retriever. I see many "breeders" breeding calmer, softer, more sedate dogs to fill the market for people who enjoy the look of GSDs but not the full package. The GSD is NOT a breed for everyone, nor should it be, and breeding GSDs without proper aggression, drive, and energy, is simply not breeding GSDs.


Ditto, ditto, ditto!!

That is why I'm not against show and pet breeders. Want it I or not, the facts are that the breed is already too embedded in the culture of people and they want more and more for the pet market that is already too late to stop the snow ball, that is why I prefer a split, so people can have their softer and calmer pet GSD without loosing the working one. Not that I think working lines can't be pets, but most of them are a challenge for the average person while excellent pets on working homes.

It is the same as with pigeons. To be honest, pigeons are a pest, an introduced dirty animal that transmit diseases, nothing but winged rats but... pigeons had been in our cities for centuries, you can't eliminate them as rats because they are embedded in our cultures and no park would be the same without an old person feeding them. GSDs could have been a working breed in it's origin, but now you can't eliminate all those pet bred GSDs and... the market is bigger.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM[quoteMy contention really is that this breed is not a golden retriever. I see many "breeders" breeding calmer, softer, more sedate dogs to fill the market for people who enjoy the look of GSDs but not the full package. The GSD is NOT a breed for everyone, nor should it be, and breeding GSDs without proper aggression, drive, and energy, is simply not breeding GSDs. Those who get a title just because it's a requirement and either scrape by or buy them under the table are just as bad, as are those who forget the rest of the dog and just want to get on the podium.


TOTALLY agree!!! Excellent point!!!!


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:and the whites who can be lovely and deserve their own designation


In the UKC and in Europe and other countries, the White shepherds are considered another breed. A friend of mine who lives in Sweden, tells me all the time about the white shepherds and how they are not considered GSDs anymore. Here's the UKC Standard for the White Shepherd.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Quote:
> Health test, health test, health test. And the overly sloped back present in the American line GSDs, IMO, should be discouraged.
> I would love for there to be a law that breeders must follow, but there are lots of opinions on what a good breeder does and does not do.


As long as the judges put them up, irregardless of temperament, they will continue to be bred. Interestingly, I have seen some AKC showline breeders are mixing in Euro show lines - but that does not seem to be going on in next generations [/quote]





> Quote:What do you think we should do when it comes to educating the public on irresponsible breeders?
> 
> Education. Tell people what not to to look for in a breeder and discourage BYB and puppy mill purchases.


Unfortunately MANY do not want to learn! They get offended or defensive and spew animosity. We had a recent poster here who bred untitled dogs who truly felt he was doing a service, and he was "NOT a BYB". In private correspondence I tried very nicely to explain WHY his practices were not admired, while refusing to sell him a very very nice young dog, and he was adamant that he was a "responsible breeder". 

I also am listed as a breeder on the local GSDCA club site, and I spend many many hours explaining good breeding practices, OFA, etc. to prospective pet buyers. I don't usually have pups for them (don't think I have EVER sold a pup to a buyer from that link LOL), I send them to other people who may have something, and maybe a quarter of them actually learn something and buy from a good source rather than the paper. 



> Quote:What do you think should be done to eradicate these breeders? -
> 
> Educate enough people and we can take a lot of business away from the bad breeders.


It is going to be a long long long process - the GSD is 3rd in AKC registrations this year - and so many pups are born without papers, registered with secondary registries, or given the AKC app but it is never sent in - that this goal is not going to happen in our lifetimes - I am so disheartened because of new dog laws, BSL and zoning problems for small breeders that I fear these will take care of eradicating the good breeders leaving the factories who can comply with the facility requirements in place.




> Quote:While it may be impossible at this point, how do you personally think we could save our breed from the downward spiral of bad breeding practices and how do you think we could decrease the number of GSDs ending up in shelters to die? -
> 
> Educate people on responsible breeding. If someone wants to breed their GSD, educate them on how to do it right and tell them the complete truth.
> Tell them not to just jump into breeding, but to actually do their research beforehand.


See above!




> Quote:Most importantly, how can we act on these ideas?


Get out there and spread the word to people. [/quote]

By practicing what we preach and holding true to the ethics we should have. Breeding dogs should be a passion, so show compassion to our own dogs. By knowing our own dogs that we do breed, and being selective in sales. By not overproducing pups by housing dozens of females and youngsters and breeding every female heat and selling on dozens of pet sites to anyone with money. By ensuring when we do breed that the caliber of the pups is striving to breed to the standard, striving to make an improvement in the next generation. By being objective not kennel blind. By not being adversarial and malicious to others who have the same goals out of competitiveness and jealousy, so working together.


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthThis is where the Europeans have the advantage over us. They are able to keep the majority of their pups in their clubs or in their area. They see these pups grow up, work, get titled and are then able to make much more informed breeding decisions.



I like this one. It so happens that I have seen and worked with three of the males from Chopper's litter. Up until a few months ago, we were all in the same club. The litter is uniform, and the majority of the pups from the dam are uniform in type and temperament. If Amer show breeders tracked there pups like that, and used consistent sires, instead of hopping on the latest GV, CH fad, they might be able to figure out which combos gave them better dogs all the way around. Seems like they are shooting in the dark most of the time, then making statements like breeding is a crap shot.


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

There are still many. I just happened to find an amer line dog who still acts like a dog. I'd swear she was german. No sloped back, but she has a good bend of stifle, good out reaching shoulder and posternum. 

I wish I could herd HGH, but where would I be able to do that in Cleveland, OH. Some of these things are limited by availability.

She will at least get a title in something, to show that she is trainanlbe, and that I am willing to train her.

More importantly, I will test her for every health issue that there is a test for. No one should have to watch there pet die, or shell out $$$ for a disease that the breeder could have tested her breeding stock for. Some things creep up on you, but some things you can lessen the possibility of occurrence in your lines.


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