# How do you socialize a Working Line dog?



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

How do you guys socialize your WL dogs? Do you even socialize them? Or do you keep them away from strangers completely?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I always want them out and around everything, but as far as strangers or just people other then family, for me it depends on their temperament and what I'm currently doing with them. Even my overly social one, there's times I want a little indifference to people so I just keep him obedient around others. The other one wants to be friendly, he really does, but sometimes those thin nerves just won't let him for more then a couple minutes, so for him its better to just keep him obedient all the time.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

From my experience, puppies are happy little sponges ready to soak up attention......or they should be IF they are genetically sound!!!! A puppy needs to be confident yet cautious, happy yet discerning.....these are GENETICS!


The whole idea of "socialization" has gotten to be popular due to the amazing numbers of GSDs being produced in this country....probably 80% (and I am probably being generous) of which do not have a sound genetic makeup....these pups need additional help to be safe and solid members of their families and society.....

Socialization opportunities are or should be taken advantage of for some basic manners and obedience imprinting....not jumping, attention/focus, stays and releases......when your puppy NEEDS to be socialized to be approachable, to be handled, to walk with you without hiding, hackling or grumbling - then you have a puppy whose genetic makeup is NOT 100% sound.



Lee


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I worked with them in a similar way as any other pup I have raised. The WLs never became social butterflies after they started to mature. They became more aloof naturally, yet very stable around people. Also when they lost the cutesy factor at around 5 months of age, people left them alone (except when they had or have had GSDs) or actively avoided them, sometimes even picking up their kids. Fine with me.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Halo is our first working line GSD, we also have a West German show line, and have had a prior WGSL and two American line shepherds. I didn't socialize her any differently than the others. Well, actually even more extensively perhaps. 

She likes people, but is not a social butterfly like Keefer. When she was little I let her meet anyone she wanted to meet that wanted to meet her. I exposed her to as many new people/places/things as possible, while working on basic manners and obedience training, such as Lee describes above. Her first 5 classes were in 4 different locations with several different instructors because I liked the idea of having her learn to pay attention and obey in new places and situations.

I took her to every strip mall in town to work on her training, near baseball fields during practices and games, near busy basketball courts, around kids on skateboards and bikes, and to a regional park where there are lots of people walking dogs, and families with small children and babies in strollers, as well as wild turkeys, deer, squirrels, geese, and other wildlife. We worked outside the bowling alley, inside the pet supply stores, and outside the supermarket with people walking past with carts and automatic doors opening and closing. We worked on busy street corners and next to gas station driveways with cars going in and out. We sat outside Starbucks, and she met people there and got treats. Pretty much anything I could think of to throw at her, I did.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Sometimes all the early socialization you can do will not guarantee and socialized adult. 
After I got some basic obedience down, then I had to switch from correcting with the prong collar to using treats on walks. Like using them to do "look at me" before during and after passing dogs and other people. I had to learn dog language and read not only my own, but other dogs. There were times when my dog wanted to be social with another dog, I assumed that because it was off leash it was friendly, but many causal dog owners do not read their dogs, and I'd notice the upper lip raising - a mini snarl and so then I'd have to say "leave it" to our dog.

Find a trainer that does socialization. Find some dog groups (hiking, play, meetups, etc) so your dog can at least be friendly with a certain group of dogs it will get to know. We found a GSD meetup group and that was so helpful. On our first hike, Molly followed the good behavior of the other dogs - so being around other canine role models helped. Then I take my dog everywhere I can, so she has learned, if I say it is OK, she can say hello to people in stores or on walks and get positive rewards from them and from me after we move on. Even with all this, I still have to be on alert, vigilant. Many dogs seem nice but then react to her size by screaming when they get next to her. If we are hiking in remote areas and she's off leash and we see another dog, I usually will leash her up, just to be safe. My working line female is 6 yrs old now. Its mostly dogs I have to be concerned about, but she will definitely alert us to a person who is a threat. She did that a couple weeks ago, reacted strongly to this guy about 30' away from us in a parking lot. We were in our car, he gets in the car next to us and yells into our car, "everytime I see a GSD I want to kill it". So our dog sensed his attitude right away. Socialization is possible if you are willing to be alert 100% of the time and realize they will never be like a Lab.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This so depends on the puppy. When mine was a baby, we had the coldest winter on record in our area. I just took a friends puppy to a seminar at 16 weeks. zero socialization to strange places and people. She went from my friend, to me, to a 5 hour car ride to a strange building. And she OWNED the place. 

Solid genetics are solid genetics. Some dogs may have more suspicion. The girl had very little to strange surroundings. My boy had more. So it's more a matter of exposing the puppy, regardless of lines, to the world and making them feel safe while they do it. 

This is a great list for puppies
Puppy Socialization - what it really should be | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

This is a long but very excellent thread on the subject.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> From my experience, puppies are happy little sponges ready to soak up attention......or they should be IF they are genetically sound!!!! A puppy needs to be confident yet cautious, happy yet discerning.....these are GENETICS!
> 
> 
> The whole idea of "socialization" has gotten to be popular due to the amazing numbers of GSDs being produced in this country....probably 80% (and I am probably being generous) of which do not have a sound genetic makeup....these pups need additional help to be safe and solid members of their families and society.....
> ...




Bing, bing, bing.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

As you would with any dog.....out and about, social and busy places, boarding, training, etc.

Husband's current competition dog, Yuri, travels to huge state and southern level tennis tournaments that our daughter (12 yo) plays in.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> I worked with them in a similar way as any other pup I have raised. The WLs never became social butterflies after they started to mature. They became more aloof naturally, yet very stable around people. Also when they lost the cutesy factor at around 5 months of age, people left them alone (except when they had or have had GSDs) or actively avoided them, sometimes even picking up their kids. Fine with me.


LOL, when I fostered an 8 month old pup he was the cutest thing in the world to me. I remember I took him through a bad neighborhood, it was the funniest thing seeing "hard gangbangers" crossing the street and walking around me, and little kids running up to pet him. (I kind of liked it )


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> How do you guys socialize your WL dogs? Do you even socialize them? Or do you keep them away from strangers completely?


I prefer "Exposure to people rather than Socialization with people. 

But ultimately it depends on the dog, if you have a dog that likes people, socialize away but even then .. it's best to set some terms calm behavior before you say "Yes" is best.

Otherwise you run the risk of creating excitement to see/meet uh everyone. Blowback from that approach will be seen when company comes over. Put another way, if you train your dog to be excited to meet people, then when your dog meets people ... they will be excited. 

On the other hand ... some dogs don't much care for people and with them Exposure to people is the best and safest (in my view) course of action. They just need to be out and about and be civil and calm but they don't need to be a dog you allow just anyone to put hands on. Been there done that worked out fine.

But ... I'm not really "this" brief.  

The rest of the story is here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7897425-post21.html

So yeah ... ask questions.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> I prefer "Exposure to people rather than Socialization with people.
> 
> But ultimately it depends on the dog, if you have a dog that likes people, socialize away but even then .. it's best to set some terms calm behavior before you say "Yes" is best.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm curious because I am actively looking for WL breeders. Many people who get these dogs get them for protection, and they refuse to socialize them. Kind of like "don't pet my dog he's training for being a seeing eye dog". Or "he's training to be a bomb sniffing dog, don't pet him".
I see why this is preferred, but in my opinion it's good for a protection dog to learn that most people are good. You may never even come in contact with a perpetrator.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Julian G said:


> Many people who get these dogs get them for protection, and they refuse to socialize them.


That is soooooo untrue. I don't think you have a good understanding on "protection" or "socialization"

People will get a working line for a variety of reasons. Out of all my dog's siblings, some went to SAR, some IPO, some pet homes, some AKC competition homes. They get working line for the drives, some because of looks, some for temperament, some for sports, some for real work like K9's or SAR.

Socializing a dog does not mean immersing them in people in the Walmart parking lot. It means exposing the dog to the world.

Personally, I let all the little kids that want pet my dog. It's the adults that aren't allowed to because they do stupid things and don't listen to me. 

did you read the list on the blog I posted above? That is from one of Canada's top trainers.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> I guess I'm curious because I am actively looking for WL breeders. Many people who get these dogs get them for protection, and they refuse to socialize them. Kind of like "don't pet my dog he's training for being a seeing eye dog". Or "he's training to be a bomb sniffing dog, don't pet him".
> I see why this is preferred, but in my opinion it's good for a protection dog to learn that most people are good. You may never even come in contact with a perpetrator.


Give it time. I don't know that the Law Enforcement, Personal Protection Dog folks hang out much in the Puppy section??  

But it's a good title and a good question! One many (owners) do not think of before hand??

A poorly socialized, half trained, HA, WL GSD is not of much value if you can't take him with you??

I'm good with "my" approach I work with the "Dog" in front of me if it likes people I say yes, more often. If they don't I say "No" more often. In both cases ... I am the first point of contact, and in either case a yes or a no,* the dog needs to be calm.
*


I got blowback from not understanding that with my "people Friendly" Boxer. Men luv'd her antics, Females not so much. I could control her barely (did not not know of Place at the time) but not guest (Oh she's fine, let her be) :crazy:

But over enthusiastic greetings of guest with my WL GSD, yeah that was not a problem. We settled on "Nice to see you, when you leaving??" Good enough for me.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> That is soooooo untrue. I don't think you have a good understanding on "protection" or "socialization"
> 
> People will get a working line for a variety of reasons.  Out of all my dog's siblings, some went to SAR, some IPO, some pet homes, some AKC competition homes. They get working line for the drives, some because of looks, some for temperament, some for sports, some for real work like K9's or SAR.
> 
> ...


Hey, its not me, its what I read. And when I said they refuse to "socialize" I meant they wouldn't let anyone come and pet the dog or handle the dog besides the handler. Obviously you have to take them to different places and let the pup see and hear many things.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I got my WL GSD (Foster Fail) because he was a big furry dog with a pointy face! That's about it for research on my part ... that was a mistake but .. it worked out in the long run.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Julian G said:


> Hey, its not me, its what I read. And when I said they refuse to "socialize" I meant they wouldn't let anyone come and pet the dog or handle the dog besides the handler. Obviously you have to take them to different places and let the pup see and hear many things.


Ok but you stated the above comment as fact. Which it is not. Do some people do this? Of course. But do many? Not in my experience. My advice, again, is go to a club, watch the dogs and talk to the handlers.

Why would you let another person handle your dog? The only people that handle my dog other than me are my trainers, my breeder, my fellow club members if I need a hand, the vet and the vet techs. There is no reason for anyone else to be handling your dog or giving your dog commands (which people WILL do. Constantly...drives me nuts. Sit! Dog ignores them. SIT!! No, you go sit...far away)

And remember....dogs are not public property! People will act like they are. As if they have a right to pet your dog. They do not. Nor do they need to. The general public do not need to have their hands all over your dog. Would you let them handle your toddler?

Great example as to why! I'm training at a park and this woman yells over how great he behaves. She can't hear my response so she meanders over and I let her pet him. She's jabbering on about something and he's laying quietly at my feet. She leaned over and start SMACKING him in the back of the head while babytalking "whatchoo doin? huh?" SMACK "whatchoo doin?" 

BACK AWAY FROM MY DOG RIGHT NOW!!

So no, sorry....adults do not get to pet my dogs anymore. They do incredibly stupid things before you can stop them. Kids...Kids are awesome! Any kid can put them anytime as long as they ask.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

You know - I have met people who refuse to let anyone pet a puppy/dog - a couple of big time trainers in the sport have that perception....one of my owners was in a bad wreck, his wife killed, injured badly - I got his mature titled male back after having it fostered for a short time....the dog was FINE....not in your lap social with everyone, but approachable, sane and safe. I even took him to a fun day at an AKC obedience/agility facility and did the CGC with him - put him in a down beside a crated yippy shih tsu, handed the leash to a 12 year old and walked away for that exercise - passed with flying colors.... The owner never let anyone pet this dog, put him in a crate when family and visitors came to the house as per his instructions from the trainer ......Again, bottom line is genetic soundness....


Lee


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Ok but you stated the above comment as fact. Which it is not. Do some people do this? Of course. But do many? Not in my experience. My advice, again, is go to a club, watch the dogs and talk to the handlers.
> 
> Why would you let another person handle your dog? The only people that handle my dog other than me are my trainers, my breeder, my fellow club members if I need a hand, the vet and the vet techs. There is no reason for anyone else to be handling your dog or giving your dog commands (which people WILL do. Constantly...drives me nuts. Sit! Dog ignores them. SIT!! No, you go sit...far away)
> 
> ...


I am not stating it as fact, go back and read. I said that many WL owners do not socialize their dogs. (socialize as in no-touch human interaction except the handler). Many top trainers go by this method. 



wolfstraum said:


> *You know - I have met people who refuse to let anyone pet a puppy/dog - a couple of big time trainers in the sport have that perception....*one of my owners was in a bad wreck, his wife killed, injured badly - I got his mature titled male back after having it fostered for a short time....the dog was FINE....not in your lap social with everyone, but approachable, sane and safe. I even took him to a fun day at an AKC obedience/agility facility and did the CGC with him - put him in a down beside a crated yippy shih tsu, handed the leash to a 12 year old and walked away for that exercise - passed with flying colors.... *The owner never let anyone pet this dog, put him in a crate when family and visitors came to the house as per his instructions from the trainer .*.....Again, bottom line is genetic soundness....
> 
> 
> Lee


Thank you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok. You seem to have all the facts and know what many WL owners do. Good luck in your search.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Ok. You seem to have all the facts and know what many WL owners do. Good luck in your search.


Even though I sense your sarcasm, I thank you. eace:


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Personally, I let all the little kids that want pet my dog. It's the adults that aren't allowed to because they do stupid things and don't listen to me.


Boy, isn't that the truth! 

I do the same thing with my dogs. Kids, yes. Adults rarely want to pet my dogs, so I usually don't have to deal with them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Julian G said:


> I am not stating it as fact, go back and read. I said that many WL owners do not socialize their dogs. (socialize as in no-touch human interaction except the handler). Many top trainers go by this method.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.





Julian G said:


> Even though I sense your sarcasm, I thank you. eace:


No sarcasm. Just not important to me to argue. You stated that many WL owners do not socialize their dogs. You stated that many top trainers go by this method. It's all above.  You seem to have all the information and not interested in anything else I said. None of the top trainers I know go by that method but maybe they are the minority. You must know different trainers and handlers. Again, best of luck in your search.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I think you are worrying a lot about hypotheticals while you are waiting to get a dog. Much of what you need to know will happen naturally after you have the dog. I wanted to socialize more but minor health problems derailed that, but my dog is still sociable. It's his personality.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> I think you are worrying a lot about hypotheticals while you are waiting to get a dog. Much of what you need to know will happen naturally after you have the dog. I wanted to socialize more but minor health problems derailed that, but my dog is still sociable. It's his personality.


Do you have a working line dog? If so did you do anything different from previous non working dogs?


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## Momo (Feb 4, 2016)

I've recently enjoyed Michael Ellis's videos (power of food/playing tug) and it really starts with engagement. Without engagement, you're not going to be able to train a puppy/dog and I personally feel that dog needs to view you as its whole world. I actually prefer that my dog doesn't get excited with strangers/friends that come over as some people don't like dogs, let alone jumping/in your face type dogs that most people think they're untrained etc. I would certainly want the dogs to just be calm/aloof/accepting of other people/dogs/whatever unless it becomes a perceived threat and I believe that by introducing the puppy to new environments within their comfort zone is enough. If a dog is being ignore by most people, there's no negative association for the dog. It's really what you expect of the dog...
Beyond Ellis's videos, I would talk to a few good trainers (probably would avoid petsmart types and check w/ those that compete in IPO) and ask them what they recommend. Every trainer has their own training philosophy(ies) and not one method works for all WL dogs. Also be on the lookout for IPO events/clubs in your area as it would be a great place to meet WL dogs/handlers in person and get their views.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I think you are worrying a lot about hypotheticals while you are waiting to get a dog. Much of what you need to know will happen naturally after you have the dog. I wanted to socialize more but minor health problems derailed that, but my dog is still sociable. It's his personality.


I kinda sorta think he is doing "research" before he gets a dog??? 

Not what I did myself with my first WL GSD ... I can see the advantage to doing it his way.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> Do you have a working line dog? If so did you do anything different from previous non working dogs?


Yes, I've said in your other thread that I do. We started with a WGSL who was high drive and high energy. In between we fostered, rescued and owned several other GSDs. Then we recently got a WL puppy. 

My dogs are not typical. My WG dog was very intense, extremely high threshold, very hard. She barely felt corrections. But she was also very easy to train. We showed her something a few times and she learned it.

My WL dog is from Czech and Belgian protection lines. He isn't a hard dog in terms of corrections, but if he's focused on something else, he will ignore a correction. He is medium drive. The breeder intentionally mixes in calmer dogs with the drivey dogs, so she ends up with some suitable for pets and others for working homes. I'm finding he is very determined. If he wants to do something, he wants to do it. So, while I can get his attention off a task much easier than I could with my SL, he will resist very strongly if he doesn't want to do something I want him to do. That means my old methods of training didn't work. Treats made him even more determined to ignore me. We are now working with a different trainer and he's doing much better, but I had to change.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Yes, I've said in your other thread that I do. We started with a WGSL who was high drive and high energy. In between we fostered, rescued and owned several other GSDs. Then we recently got a WL puppy.
> 
> My dogs are not typical. My WG dog was very intense, extremely high threshold, very hard. She barely felt corrections. But she was also very easy to train. We showed her something a few times and she learned it.
> 
> My WL dog is from Czech and Belgian protection lines. He isn't a hard dog in terms of corrections, but if he's focused on something else, he will ignore a correction. He is medium drive. The breeder intentionally mixes in calmer dogs with the drivey dogs, so she ends up with some suitable for pets and others for working homes. I'm finding he is very determined. If he wants to do something, he wants to do it. So, while I can get his attention off a task much easier than I could with my SL, he will resist very strongly if he doesn't want to do something I want him to do. That means my old methods of training didn't work. Treats made him even more determined to ignore me. We are now working with a different trainer and he's doing much better, but I had to change.


Interesting. What are the ways in which you train him without treats? What is his reward for following your command?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I'm not a trainer. You should probably ask someone here who is. We are working with a trainer and it's complicated to explain in detail.

Here, read this

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-early-training-young-working-line-puppy.html


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Julian, is there a specific response you are looking for? I mean this in a nice way.. Since you don't have a dog yet, are you worried about a certain behavior or happenstance that might occur? It might make it easier for people to respond more specifically.. 

I have had and continue to have working line.. I've also had ASL and American mic of ASL and WL... All but one have had great temperaments with or without socialization.. Ironically, the one who was a bit more hard (still had a good mind, just was a bit edgier) and needed more socialization probably had the least due to circumstances... My current WL girl is a SAR dog, so she has to have more socialization but mostly due to exposure.. I don't let people just walk up and pet her.. Sounds funny, but a nose to an eyeball, or a stiff arm jab (she is great at that) can cause damage and suits just as easily as a bite.. Might be harder to explain to the judge but who wants to be in that situation, lol?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Hineni7 said:


> Julian, is there a specific response you are looking for? I mean this in a nice way.. Since you don't have a dog yet, are you worried about a certain behavior or happenstance that might occur? It might make it easier for people to respond more specifically..
> 
> I have had and continue to have working line.. I've also had ASL and American mic of ASL and WL... All but one have had great temperaments with or without socialization.. Ironically, the one who was a bit more hard (still had a good mind, just was a bit edgier) and needed more socialization probably had the least due to circumstances... My current WL girl is a SAR dog, so she has to have more socialization but mostly due to exposure.. I don't let people just walk up and pet her.. Sounds funny, but a nose to an eyeball, or a stiff arm jab (she is great at that) can cause damage and suits just as easily as a bite.. Might be harder to explain to the judge but who wants to be in that situation, lol?


Yes I am looking for a specific response. I want to know which methods produce a certain type of dog. When I fostered dogs I was always nice to them (as you should be of coarse) and let anyone meet and greet them. They were social butterflies and probably wouldn't make a good protection dog. Let's say you have a property that needs guarding, how would you socialize a protection or guard dog?
Is that specific enough of a question? I mean this in a nice way of coarse.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

It is more specific, yes.. But I think it has been answered I a few different ways.. Remember, alot has to do with the breed and genetics /temperament over socialization... Although, if you are looking for a guard dog you don't want them overly friendly to anyone, so less on the meet and greet.. Some dogs are just naturally more self confident, territorial and apt to take an aggressive stance in a threatening situation.. 

We had a Scottish terrier when I was growing up and she was an amazing guard dog! Our ****zu is a good guard dog (in his mind) vocally, but of course the larger dogs are the deterrent due to intimidating looks.. 

My suggestion is that when you get your dog, love it, take it out with you wherever you go, train it well and be its all and all.. You will have a fierce and loyal dog.. Buy from a respectable breeder and you will most likely have the genetics for a great guard dog naturally.. Does that help at all? I really am trying to understand how to answer you in a way that helps with your questions


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> Yes I am looking for a specific response. I want to know which methods produce a certain type of dog. When I fostered dogs I was always nice to them (as you should be of coarse) and let anyone meet and greet them. They were social butterflies and probably wouldn't make a good protection dog. Let's say you have a property that needs guarding, how would you socialize a protection or guard dog?
> Is that specific enough of a question? I mean this in a nice way of coarse.


If you want a dog for security or protection, the first time you train for that, use a good, qualified trainer. We've seen too many people on this forum who had good intentions but ended up with a dog they couldn't manage because they were in over their heads.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Hineni7 said:


> It is more specific, yes.. But I think it has been answered I a few different ways.. Remember, alot has to do with the breed and genetics /temperament over socialization... Although, if you are looking for a guard dog you don't want them overly friendly to anyone, so less on the meet and greet.. Some dogs are just naturally more self confident, territorial and apt to take an aggressive stance in a threatening situation..
> 
> We had a Scottish terrier when I was growing up and she was an amazing guard dog! Our ****zu is a good guard dog (in his mind) vocally, but of course the larger dogs are the deterrent due to intimidating looks..
> 
> My suggestion is that when you get your dog, love it, take it out with you wherever you go, train it well and be its all and all.. You will have a fierce and loyal dog.. Buy from a respectable breeder and you will most likely have the genetics for a great guard dog naturally.. Does that help at all? I really am trying to understand how to answer you in a way that helps with your questions


Ok, lets keep this going now that we are on the same page...
I will not overdo the meet and greet. 
Then comes obedience training as #1 correct? LuvShepherds doesn't use treats for her WL and I'm pretty sure all the trainers around here use treats. So maybe you can recommend me a good book on training guard dogs, for nothing more than to at least get them started off in the right way and hope for genetics and nature to to take care of the rest when they mature.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Ok, lets keep this going now that we are on the same page...
> I will not overdo the meet and greet.
> Then comes obedience training as #1 correct? LuvShepherds doesn't use treats for her WL and I'm pretty sure all the trainers around here use treats. So maybe you can recommend me a good book on training guard dogs, for nothing more than to at least get them started off in the right way *and hope for genetics and nature to to take care of the rest when they mature*.


Puppies are a crap shoot, but why not buy from a breeder that is producing the kind of dog you desire? Many breeders of various breeds believe that dogs are up to 90% their genetics when it comes to behavior. You can't get out what isn't there to begin with so if your dog doesn't have the right stuff, what will you do with it? Will you then also add another pup at high risk for failing by not choosing a breeder producing what you want for that pup too? And when that one fails, then what? What will you do then do with the first dog? Or the second one? What do you see happening?

Most of the trainers that I know who work their dogs in personal protection and other related venues don't socialize their dogs, although they do expose them to everything they can. A naturally good dog does not need socialized. Many believe that socialization is only to compensate for some that is lacking in the dog genetically. Is that the kind of dog that you want to bet your life on?


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I started by taking my puppy everywhere with me that was safe from the start, lots of fun, new things every day. Everything was fun and not stressful or forced and always kept her close to me. Made sure to limit her interactions to well known, calm, friendly dogs and kept her away from hyper, high strung ones to avoid any kind of conflicts developing. So far my pup is extremely friendly, out going, and 100% confident in any situation. Has never shown fear of anything. She loves people and other animals. A lot of that is her genetics though. I worked a lot on a solid recall and obedience training early so that she is focused on me and *usually* listens the first time no matter the situation. She is just over 6 months old so there may be a little suspicion or aloofness as she ages but I doubt she will have any socialization issues.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Socializing will increase your chances to end up with a nice stable adult that is not afraid of the world. The best protectors are the ones who don't shy away from people. The dog that is weary of people, will crawl under the bed or behind your legs if you (and thus the dog in his/her mind) are threatened.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Exposure, not socialization, enhances a genetically stable dog's confidence, it does not create it. 

There is no such thing as a "protector" that shies away from people.

The dog that is wary, cautious of people, will not lend itself indiscriminately to friendships is discerning, not fearful and does not crawl under beds or hide behind its owners like a fearful, weak nerved dog might do.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe I just missed it, but are you planning to work this dog is some capacity Julian? Something involving biting?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I've been lucky with my crapshoot puppy. Sire was a nice retired working belgian import, the dam was a rescue - probably American show line or BYB pet lines. 

I did both exposure and socialization. If someone asked to pet him I let them. Especially kids. He loved all the attention up until about 6 months at which point the shepherd aloofness and suspicion started to kick in. He went from loving attention from everyone to tolerating it from most and enjoying it from a very few. 

He basically ignores strangers now. We were at a family bbq last weekend, my BF had the dog at the table, my BF's cousin (who the dog never met) was sitting next to him. The cousin was petting the dog's back. Mako barely had a single ear turned back to acknowledge the cousins existance. A few mins later my BF started petting mako in the same spot and the dog turned into a puddle of love because "daddy" was giving him attention. 

We do bite work trainind and the dog is doing well. I was physically assaulted and my dog engaged the attacker. 

Point being the early socialization I did had zero effect on my boys suitability for bite work or even as a protector in a real world situation. When I said I got lucky I meant it as in, lucky that my boy inherited his sires drive and temperament instead if the dam's. 

Like everyone else has said, you need to start with a good breeder producing genetically sound temperaments. If you start with that what you decide to do socialization wise isn't going to be that big of a deal.

That said I am very glad I did as much exposure training as I did. My guy is pretty defensive. The exposure stuff really helped him have a baseline if what is normal vs what he needs to be on guard about.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Exposure IS socialization.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think many make the distinction between exposure and socialization with exposure being exposing the puppy to every thing but no touch by others while socialization includes interaction with people.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think many make the distinction between exposure and socialization with exposure being exposing the puppy to every thing but no touch by others while socialization includes interaction with people.


Oh, I agree! I just wanted to make the point that socialization doesn't necessarily mean that the puppy HAS to interact with the new people/places/things in order to benefit from the exposure. And for some puppies, it's best that they don't, to avoid being overwhelmed. 

Halo has solid nerves and has always acted like she owned the joint no matter where she went, so that was never a concern for us. She has oodles of confidence and is pretty sure she's all that and a bag of chips. :wub:


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Yes! I made a point of separating the two to avoid confusion. Socialization = meeting new people, Exposure = being around new people places and things without interacting.

I call it all socialization. Lol

As far as the meeting new people type of socialization - I have been rather inclined to leave that up to my dogs. The ones that enjoyed the interaction got to meet new people, often as a reward for otherwise good behavior. Those who didn't enjoy it got the "please don't touch he's in training" pass. I couldn't care less either way, I'm OK with having an aloof dog as long as it is calm cool and collected. I'm OK having a social butterfly as long as it is calm cool and collected 

All my dog's went through the exposure only type of socialization though.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Yes! I made a point of separating the two to avoid confusion. Socialization = meeting new people, Exposure = being around new people places and things without interacting.
> 
> I call it all socialization. Lol
> 
> ...


LOL I did better with the "aloof" guy he was a "potential" bite risk so with him "calm" it would be!

My social Buttery Fly (Boxer) I kinda sorta got that one a bit off. 

She luv'd people ... well that's good what's the harm??? I found out later ...if you train/allow your dog to be excited to meet people, then your dog will be excited to meet people! Company in the home is where that approach shows it's flaws. :crazy:


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

I first develop a certain level of personal bond with the dog.
Then I focus on developing self confidence in the dog, minimizing or eliminating any obvious or discovered insecurities! Ever tried to socialize with a shy or insecure person, makes it much more challenging to say the least! 
I then focus on obedience, once I have established that to a degree, I throw it out to the wolves.... Nah - silly me!!!!
I slowly introduce the puppy / dog to my own family, "one by one" then my own pack "one by one" and then beyond. :grin2:


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## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Halo is our first working line GSD, we also have a West German show line, and have had a prior WGSL and two American line shepherds. I didn't socialize her any differently than the others. Well, actually even more extensively perhaps.
> 
> She likes people, but is not a social butterfly like Keefer. When she was little I let her meet anyone she wanted to meet that wanted to meet her. I exposed her to as many new people/places/things as possible, while working on basic manners and obedience training, such as Lee describes above. Her first 5 classes were in 4 different locations with several different instructors because I liked the idea of having her learn to pay attention and obey in new places and situations.
> 
> I took her to every strip mall in town to work on her training, near baseball fields during practices and games, near busy basketball courts, around kids on skateboards and bikes, and to a regional park where there are lots of people walking dogs, and families with small children and babies in strollers, as well as wild turkeys, deer, squirrels, geese, and other wildlife. We worked outside the bowling alley, inside the pet supply stores, and outside the supermarket with people walking past with carts and automatic doors opening and closing. We worked on busy street corners and next to gas station driveways with cars going in and out. We sat outside Starbucks, and she met people there and got treats. Pretty much anything I could think of to throw at her, I did.


I plan on doing exactly this with a puppy I get, how has it worked out? I need my dog later o to be a comfortable as possible in her new settings


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Eh ... mine is perfectly affable in public, going anywhere. Has gone to numerous group classes. Normal socialization (took him out and about with me, didn't seek out people for him to interact with... but didn't freak out if someone wanted to pet my pup).

At three, he's very protective of home and my vehicle. As soon as I get him OUT of the vehicle, then he's back to his public self.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Maybe I just missed it, but are you planning to work this dog is some capacity Julian? Something involving biting?


Wow, sorry I missed your question for so long. Yes, PP and estate protection. But I live in a VERY heavy populated city area. I can't have him barking at every single person passing by, I guess that part depends on the dogs nerves. I have been reading a lot of Leerburg articles and trying to cater a plan specific to my situation. I know how to raise a dog, been doing it for many years, just wondering if I should do anything different this time around with a KNPV line pup. Leerburg says to not let ANYONE pet your dog. This is a controversial topic on here (been reading similar threads). Opinions seem to be from all over the place and they all have strong evidence backing their claims. I pretty much HAVE to bring him around many different environments, but who to let him interact with is what I'm debating. Many tell me that if protection is the number 1 priority, to not let anyone interact with the pup.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

Sorry to say that, but


> I can't have him barking at every single person passing by


and


> to not let ANYONE pet your dog


 are songs from different operas.
Your working dog should not receive visual images from outside at home. Your windows should not exist for him. Your front door shouldn't let any sounds inside your property. Otherwise, that is where your problem has started - he barks and thinks that his barking makes people and dogs move away. You can stop the process of escalation in his reactivity by securing your door and windows. Then, his barking seemingly aggressively at people might have a different purpose: it is typical for males to announce their royal exit and he wants people to react respectfully. They don't react and that is irritating, or, if they react - they react not in the way he wants them to. He cannot get what he wants - practice sessions specifically targeted to develop his patience. Petting by strangers teachers your dog to come to people himself (if they can do it, why he can not?). But what then, after? I let my dog to approach people and I cue my dog to sit or lie down, would you do the same? No. Your dog is next to you to protect you and should expect aggression from any stranger. He must be patient enough to watch closing distance between you and the stranger before he starts barking, must be patient enough before you cued him to attack. You can practice patience with treats at home, ask him to keep sitting while you walk around and away in the park, but for practicing with other people - you need a trainer and a helper for set-ups.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Barcagp said:


> I plan on doing exactly this with a puppy I get, how has it worked out? I need my dog later o to be a comfortable as possible in her new settings


It's worked very well.  She is my flyball racing dog, and is totally bombproof in an extremely loud and chaotic environment.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Julian G said:


> Ok, lets keep this going now that we are on the same page...
> I will not overdo the meet and greet.
> Then comes obedience training as #1 correct? LuvShepherds doesn't use treats for her WL and I'm pretty sure all the trainers around here use treats. So maybe you can recommend me a good book on training guard dogs, for nothing more than to at least get them started off in the right way and hope for genetics and nature to to take care of the rest when they mature.


Every dog is different. One of my dogs would do anything for a treat. My current pup, not a Shepherd, doesn't care for treats. I even baked my own special chicken liver treats, with no response. I tried bits of hot dog, which he licked and refused to eat. He doesn't even get all that excited at mealtime- he just eats and walks away. But he LOVE his tug, so I have a special tug that I only use at training time. He responds great for the tug.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Wow, sorry I missed your question for so long. Yes, PP and estate protection. But I live in a VERY heavy populated city area. I can't have him barking at every single person passing by, I guess that part depends on the dogs nerves. I have been reading a lot of Leerburg articles and trying to cater a plan specific to my situation. I know how to raise a dog, been doing it for many years, just wondering if I should do anything different this time around with a KNPV line pup. Leerburg says to not let ANYONE pet your dog. This is a controversial topic on here (been reading similar threads). Opinions seem to be from all over the place and they all have strong evidence backing their claims. I pretty much HAVE to bring him around many different environments, but who to let him interact with is what I'm debating. Many tell me that if protection is the number 1 priority, to not let anyone interact with the pup.


Since you want to do personal protection with your dog, I have to ask--are you working with a qualified trainer? Has your dog been evaluated to see if he's capable of PP in terms of correct drives and nerves? Few dogs are capable of true PP work. You need a dog that is civil for PP--a dog like that needs special handling, a PP dog is not a sport dog. 

Beware of unscrupulous trainers who will take any dog, promise to turn him into a fierce protection dog and proceed to ruin the dog.


You can't learn PP from Ed's articles and strangers on the internet. 

And KNPV is a sport.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

zetti said:


> Since you want to do personal protection with your dog, I have to ask--are you working with a qualified trainer? Has your dog been evaluated to see if he's capable of PP in terms of correct drives and nerves? Few dogs are capable of true PP work. You need a dog that is civil for PP--a dog like that needs special handling, a PP dog is not a sport dog.
> 
> Beware of unscrupulous trainers who will take any dog, promise to turn him into a fierce protection dog and proceed to ruin the dog.
> 
> ...


Yes I got in contact with a long time IPO/Sch trainer. The dog will be coming from a very reputable breeder who assured me that he will choose the perfect kind of dog for me. But at 8.5 weeks old, can anyone really know at that age? Probably not. Then again, experienced breeders have tests and know what to look for in a prospect. As far as the KNPV thing goes, I know it's a sport, from what I see and hear, it is more intense than SchH and not every dog can do it. Having a pup come from these bloodlines can probably set you up for success, which is the best bet I can make right now. I can't afford a fully trained 2 yr old PP dog. My friends tell me to just get a Presa Canario. But even though I've had pit bulls in the past and love these kinds of dogs, I always felt as though they can't be trusted.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Julian,

KNPV lines is saying something very different from holding KNPV titles. Just saying. Are the puppies parents titled? Do you know about the progeny?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

DutchKarin said:


> Julian,
> 
> KNPV lines is saying something very different from holding KNPV titles. Just saying. Are the puppies parents titled? Do you know about the progeny?


Hi Karin,
The breeder has dogs that are titled in PH1, also has dogs descended from titled PH1 dogs, and that have produced proven working dogs. If I'm not mistaken, you can only title a KNPV dog in Holland correct?


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Yes I got in contact with a long time IPO/Sch trainer. The dog will be coming from a very reputable breeder who assured me that he will choose the perfect kind of dog for me. But at 8.5 weeks old, can anyone really know at that age? Probably not. Then again, experienced breeders have tests and know what to look for in a prospect. As far as the KNPV thing goes, I know it's a sport, from what I see and hear, it is more intense than SchH and not every dog can do it. Having a pup come from these bloodlines can probably set you up for success, which is the best bet I can make right now. I can't afford a fully trained 2 yr old PP dog. My friends tell me to just get a Presa Canario. But even though I've had pit bulls in the past and love these kinds of dogs, I always felt as though they can't be trusted.


IPO/ScH/KNPV are all sports. A sport dog trainer is not a PP trainer.

Yes, a qualified PP trainer can evaluate a baby puppy and make a fairly accurate prediction as to whether you have the right stuff. I've seen it done at 10 weeks with excellent accuracy. You aren't going to test for defense at that age, of course but you can get a pretty good picture of prey, fight and nerves.

I'm not trying to be hard on you, I'm just very concerned. PP is serious business. Do you have an SDA club in your area? They train protection in more real world type scenarios. It's a lot of fun and won't ruin your dog.

Protection in dog sports is highly choreographed pattern training, not real life protection.

A Cane Corso? Now I'm really worried.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

zetti said:


> IPO/ScH/KNPV are all sports. A sport dog trainer is not a PP trainer.
> 
> Yes, a qualified PP trainer can evaluate a baby puppy and make a fairly accurate prediction as to whether you have the right stuff. I've seen it done at 10 weeks with excellent accuracy. You aren't going to test for defense at that age, of course but you can get a pretty good picture of prey, fight and nerves.
> 
> ...


LOL, no offense taken here. I am open to all suggestions from experienced people. Though I don't think of myself as a rookie, raised dogs and fostered dogs all my life. Thank you for putting me on to PP training. I am researching one in my area and now understand the difference between sport training and PP work. In real life situations the perp does not have a bite suit, attacks aren't choreographed. You learn something new every day. Thanks again for your concern and input. By the way, why were you concerned about the cane corso/presa? A good friend of mine has one. Absolutely nobody can handle that dog besides him, he think he's all macho and cool having a liability like that. I'm just more of a shepherd guy myself. Though I am fond to labs and pits as well.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> LOL, no offense taken here. I am open to all suggestions from experienced people. Though I don't think of myself as a rookie, raised dogs and fostered dogs all my life. Thank you for putting me on to PP training. I am researching one in my area and now understand the difference between sport training and PP work. In real life situations the perp does not have a bite suit, attacks aren't choreographed. You learn something new every day. Thanks again for your concern and input. By the way, why were you concerned about the cane corso/presa? A good friend of mine has one. Absolutely nobody can handle that dog besides him, he think he's all macho and cool having a liability like that. I'm just more of a shepherd guy myself. Though I am fond to labs and pits as well.


 You don't list your location?? Most likely nowhere near SF/Northern Ca. And most likLy these guys "prompted" that response?? "Perro de Presa Canario" they are well know by doggy people out West. Best to have one's house in order with dogs of Molosser World ... these guys:

Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)

Serious "Dog" aggression can usually be found in that group, no big deal if handled properly but yeah ... "Breed Characteristic." American Band Dawgs and Dogo's are discussed here,: Dr. P's Dog Training: Bandogs and Dogos

But by and large ... all the "PPD" capable, Molosser types, are pretty similar, but that is a good site to dig into. GSd's Dutchies and Mals are very different experiences. 

It's best to not be a "Dog Park" kinda guy, with those dog's, "ignore other dogs" makes life simpler. Pack members and dogs they know should be fine. Unknow dogs ... training required.


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