# Do you let your dog sniff when on walks?



## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

I have managed to train my dog to walk right next to me when on leash walks but he is usually sniffing the ground or looking for mailboxes and polls to sniff and pee if he smells another dog smell. 

Should i continue to let him do this or should i make him focus on me when we are on walks. Also i am not sure if i should let him keep marking spots because sometimes when we are on walk he will stop and pee 5-6 times which can be annoying. 

Do you guys let your dogs sniff the ground as you are walking them... i noticed some dogs just calmly walk next to their owners without doing all the sniffing but i am not sure if that is being fair to the dog as i know they love to sniff.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

how about I say "both"? walking with solid focus at all times can be a bit boring for dogs. Especially if you are going for a long walk. How long can you make it focusing on nothing but your dog as you are walking?

Instead, I ask for focused heeling for portions of the walk, when we are approaching traffic, along the highway or passing a house where I know there is a problem dog or other distraction. Other times, I simply ask for loose leash walking and we keep a brisk pace but he isn't focused on me and we don't stop to sniff. Then we have portions where I release him and he is allowed to sniff, potty, and we walk slowly giving time to take in all the smells and sights.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes. When we are just walking, he is allowed to experience his environment. If I want his attention then I ask for it. If he's sniffing and I want to keep moving, I tell him 'let's go'.

if we are training, he better not be doing anything other than the command I've given him.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

How old is your dog?


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Both. We usually let Jack sniff if it's just an idle walk around the neighborhood. These are done almost for the sole purpose of getting us all outside for some fresh air instead of exercise. When we take him on hikes off leash, of course he gets to sniff, but we keep walking on and don't stop to wait for him.

The only times he doesn't is when we're in a populated area, near/on/crossing a road, walking by people/dogs on the trail, or at an event. Those times we need him to focus and stay right next to us. Especially in a crowd.


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## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

Bramble said:


> How old is your dog?


1 year 8 months.

What i get from the responses is to allow sniffing as long as we are on walks but if i need him to pay attention when near other dogs and crossing the street then he needs to pay attention to me (Sounds great). What is the best way to start the training to have him go from him sniffing and then having him focus on me and walking when i want him to? I am guessing ill need to be able to tell him command to turn him from allowing him to sniff to ok time to walk and focus on me but i am not quite sure how i can do that

Also how about marking...do you allow that?


My dog is not neutered should i be allowing him to mark on walks. There are alot of mailboxes when i walk him in the neighberhood and he looks forward to sniffing each and every mailbox and will pee 5-6 times on the mailbox during our walk. Not sure if i should allow him to do this.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't allow marking on walks. I give designated times when he is allowed to potty but that is it


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I think your conflating a "Structured Walk" and a less formal walk. A dog has to be taught/shown what you want first and then you can loosen up without a lot of the crap behavior, it's a process. But have a look here for insight. : 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/how-do-i-teach-my-dog/709658-structured-walk.html


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

my answer is NO 

not until released and free to romp

you said "I have managed to train my dog to walk right next to me when on leash walks but he is usually sniffing the ground or looking for mailboxes and polls to sniff and pee if he smells another dog smell. "

but then the dog is not walking with you -- he is in his zone 

dogs have such a phenomenal sense of scent they don't need to be stopping and pulling off course


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

1800CoolGuy said:


> 1 year 8 months.
> 
> What i get from the responses is to allow sniffing as long as we are on walks but if i need him to pay attention when near other dogs and crossing the street then he needs to pay attention to me (Sounds great). What is the best way to start the training to have him go from him sniffing and then having him focus on me and walking when i want him to? I am guessing ill need to be able to tell him command to turn him from allowing him to sniff to ok time to walk and focus on me but i am not quite sure how i can do that
> 
> ...


Start by making the release clear to him. Walk him in heel, stop and have him sit, then calmly release him from the sit to sniff around. Use the sit like that so he doesn't anticipate the release and break to mark on his own. You can start into heel again randomly from the sit too, to keep his attention. Do it over and over, lots of repetitions then add distance. When they're released they get to be a dog. Mine marks like a demon and I crack up when he puts on that full macho display, kicking up grass and all. When they do that though, its on you to use a little sense about where you allow it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I never give my dogs commands while walking. I let them do pretty much what they want and manage them by the leash. The only exception is sitting at corner before crossing a street. Otherwise, I let them use their ears and nose on walks. One reason is the strength of distractions through nose, ears and eyes is so strong that giving commands creates habits of me having to repeat commands, or poor execution of the commands, or excessive use of correction to enforce the command....none of which I find appealing or want to create. Anyway, as long as he/she is walking in control, I have ability to shorten or lengthen the lease to control situations. Lastly, if the situation is too much, then I should be walking AWAY from the situation. Of course there are exceptions to the above, but by and large my walks are for the dog's enjoyment and not my control.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Walks on leash are business here; no sniffing and especially for the males; no marking. She is only on leash in areas where it is required or where there is a lot of traffic. Otherwise she is off leash. On country roads with the occasional car, she walks ahead of me on the shoulder and will sit on command until I am with her when a car approaches.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cliff you still have some basic expectations where the dog is "with you".
Sure it is not a rigid military like march down the road -- but if the dog is pulling you like a kite or
to criss cross your path to some doggy-goal then YOUR pleasure goes out the window.

When you don't enjoy the walk -- the dog ends up NOT going for a walk !

Too much hassle - dog stays at home .

As a younger person while working in a office environment , a bunch of the "girls" and I would
jog down to the Humane Shelter - and volunteer to take some of the dogs for short walks around
the parking lot .

The staff did say some dogs landed in their care because they were unmanageable when on walks and
in a city with postage sized residental yards - walks were a necessity to keep the dog healthy and happy.

Manners on the walk , a proper relationship 

There is a good medium . 

Start the young dogs with obedience .


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

When we go to the park, I let Russell pee on the first tree or pole we come across. After that, it's no marking. I let him doodle around, sniffing whatever, while we go through the trails at the park. Pleasant for both of us. Scarlet is learning not to lose her mind over squirrels, ducks and Canadian geese in the park. The birds are pretty easy, but those darn squirrels like to taunt her...


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I let my dogs be dogs when walking. They are free to stop, sniff and pee. Walks are for my dogs, for them to be dogs. They are not required to "march in single file" for the whole walk. If I need to walk through traffic or pass other dogs, then I give a "heel" command. Then the dog can go back to sniffing and being a dog. I do enough training with my dogs that I have no use for the "structured walk." If I need my dog to walk at my side I give a heel command, then I release the dog. When I am out walking my dog we are out for a walk. I totally agree with Cliff on this. 

Think of it this way, a dog has the mentality of a small child. When kids are in school they have to behave and walk single file down the halls. On their lunch break, they get time to run around the playground and be kids. If the children were forced to march in single file for 40 minutes around the playground, school would be really boring and unpleasant. I don't want to be boring to my dogs and I expect a high level of performance form them. 

The whole Cesar Milan thing of the dog never being allowed to be in front is one of the things he does that I don't agree with. I also do not like "calm submissive" dogs. Because of what he does to the dog to achieve that state of mind. For me, structured walks are something that I do not do. The only thing structured about walking my dog is where we are going and how long my dog gets to walk for.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Hmmmm. Maybe I should let Russ pee more. I’m just afraid we wouldn’t get more than 20 feet into that park, for all the peeing going on, lol. 

I’m with you on the “calm submissive” dog thing. I love a dog with attitude, a little sassy. Okay, I’ll admit I encourage a bit of bad behavior now and then. This new puppy is all attitude. I might be too old for her, lol.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If leashed walks would be longer, yes, than I would give her way more freedom. She is hardly on leash and has pretty much free reins besides staying around, that's why the times she is on leash are structured. Thankfully we don't live in an urban area where leashed walks are mandatory.


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## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

carmspack said:


> my answer is NO
> 
> not until released and free to romp
> 
> ...


I have him walk next to my left leg at all times and i allow him to sniff the ground while walking next to me. The mailboxes tend to be on the left and he doesnt have to pull away or tug on the leash to sniff them. I usually stop and let him sniff but if i say lets go he will stop sniffing and come with me. Part of the reason i am asking this is to see if i am encouraging bad behavior by me actually stopping and letting him sniff the mailbox and mark it. 


It seems people do different things when on walks which is to be expected. 

Personally i like the idea of having the dog walk on leash and letting him sniff and having a command for him to know when to stop that and do a structured walk. I will work on that from now on.


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Hans, my GSD, already had been allowed to mark when I adopted him at 18 m/o, so I only let him sniff during a walk in places where it's ok for him to mark. When we are in a 'no mark zone', I put him in a heel. I try to be courteous about where he's allowed to mark. I also know that it's best not to let him sniff around indoors, especially someplace new, because he will try to mark. 
My Mal puppy doesn't mark yet, but I'll probably correct for it so it doesn't really get started. I allow him to sniff on walks, throwing a little heeling and other obedience in as we go.
I do think they need time to just sniff around and "be a dog".


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The only time I have a need for them to be right next to me is if we were going thru a store, crowded sidewalk, dog show, or some other thing. During those times they have no problem walking right next to me but even still they aren't as automatic as some dogs I have seen on Youtube. As long as they mind the voice and the leash I have no problem with whatever. 

Here is my thing about the dogs going ahead of me: can't tell you how many times we get to an intersection of trails and if we don't have a normal "route" that they expect to follow they stop and wait or they look back and sometimes I would indicate to them which trail to take. If they run out the door ahead of me the first thing they do is whip around and watch to be sure I am coming and to see what we are going to do. If I don't immediately come out my boy will sit at the glass door and stare at me because he wants me to come with.

if I let them out the garage for a walk and I go back in the house because I forgot something (which I always do)...sometimes it takes a long time because I am disorganized and I am wandering around in circles looking for something. I finally come back out and they are sitting in my driveway staring holes in the door waiting for me to appear.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> If leashed walks would be longer, yes, than I would give her way more freedom. She is hardly on leash and has pretty much free reins besides staying around, that's why the times she is on leash are structured. Thankfully we don't live in an urban area where leashed walks are mandatory.




I have absolutely no place to let my dogs run free, except my tiny backyard, and the very occasional trip to my breeders house where they run in the woods. Unfortunately she’s out of town most of the time, so it isn’t an option for regular runs. Dog parks are dangerous here, and all the sports yards
& school yards aren’t fenced, Plus there is a leash law. No dogs off leash, anywhere, except a dog park. No running loose at the park. It’s frustrating.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Yes, No, It depends. As I read this it seems we pretty much agree that there are times when dogs can be just dogs and sniff and wander a bit, and times when they have to be structured. My dogs need to be calm going out the door with me because I don't want to get pulled down the stairs. They have to be calm going through the gate because I need to latch it after we go through. They cannot pull me along the road to find a squirrel but they can stop and sniff. Often I have a toy or treats with me and my gal will "test" getting a reward at the beginning of the walk. She gives me a pretty little heel without me asking to. My older wiser boy just gets moving. 

The get to move ahead a bit or fall back a bit. Sometimes I'll let them stop and sniff. My boy doesn't mark often so that is not a problem. (I used to have a boy that marked quite a bit and a gal who sniffed quite a bit so I was a little more firm on when they could stop and do their thing). When we cross a street I expect my dogs to be walking by my leg in a loose heel, kind of like holding a child's hand crossing the street. Once we get across I release them to begin their exploring. If they linger longer than my patience I'll tell them to "come come" or "los gehts". If my boy gets all drooly over a spot and wants to lick it I have to actually move his head to get going. At that point I may try a slightly different route to avoid those "scents of the sweet young thing that passed by".

When we go to a park if it is not too busy, the dogs get their harnesses and long lines clipped to the back. That way they can explore and sniff and romp a bit without getting neck"corrections" for a bit of playing.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

As far as marking, my boy marks everything, I don't care. We live in the middle of nowhere, it's all trees and bushes anyway. In the much much less common times when we are somewhere more civilized-- I have not had a problem controlling where he pees. I don't let him mark anywhere that's rude...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I wouldn't even know how to keep a GSD content on leash only in an urban area.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

1800CoolGuy said:


> I have managed to train my dog to walk right next to me when on leash walks but he is usually sniffing the ground or looking for mailboxes and polls to sniff and pee if he smells another dog smell.
> 
> Should i continue to let him do this or should i make him focus on me when we are on walks.



This is a personal decision, there is no one right answer. But I would ask, what is your goal for these walks? Are you actively working on training something in particular or are you just getting exercise and/or enjoying the outdoors? Is what he's doing annoying you or are you just wondering if it may cause problems in the future?

Even when I'm doing a training walk I like to do as Steve describes, releasing the dog periodically to stop and check stuff out. And even when I'm reinforcing certain criteria, constant focus isn't one of them. I like it when my dogs are aware of me at the other end of the leash and look up at me from time to time, but I don't require that they give me constant attention. Keefer in particular has always been very in tune with the environment. He rarely looks at me unless I ask him for attention when we're on walks. And that's fine. As long as he's meeting my loose leash walking criteria - stay within a foot or two of my left side with anything from his head to about mid ribcage next to my leg, no lagging, no surging ahead, he can look around if he wants to. Unlike Halo I didn't spend a lot of time working on leash skills with him until he was several years old and I didn't worry about reinforcing attention to the extent that I did with Halo either. All I really care about is polite leash behavior so we can go out and walk at a local regional park for a few hours and enjoy the scenery. And now that he's old, (he turned 12 in August), he pees a LOT, so if he needs to go when we're out, I let him do so. 

If either of my dogs seem particularly interested in checking something out, and there are LOTS of interesting smells along the walking paths and dirt trails at the park we go to, I'll stop, wait for a sit and eye contact, then release to "go sniff". When I think they've had enough time to thoroughly investigate, I say "let's go" and we continue walking. I was taking Halo for hikes of as much as 6-9+ miles, and personally I think it's completely unrealistic, and frankly not very nice, to expect her to not enjoy herself like I am. This is not a forced prison march, lol. And because I did reinforce attention much more starting from a young age than I did with Keef, she tends to look at me frequently.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This is a personal decision, there is no one right answer. But I would ask, what is your goal for these walks? Are you actively working on training something in particular or are you just getting exercise and/or enjoying the outdoors? Is what he's doing annoying you or are you just wondering if it may cause problems in the future?


My structured, business leashed walks are about 0.5 miles at the most. My leisure walks are always off leash where ever possible but then I still practice heeling once in a while or play with her so she is aware of me as she is highly interested in her surroundings, esp. on the ground. The in-between one is the off leash country roads where she has to be within the line on the shoulder where she can sniff and look, but never longer than 1 mile approx She gets enough sniffing freedom on our property when I am outside working or 'doing something' she is not (supposed to be) involved in.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I wouldn't even know how to keep a GSD content on leash only in an urban area.


Lol, I rarely walk mine, walking around a neighborhood is boring, lol


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My "short" walks are 3-4+ miles! We have several good multi-acre open space off leash areas to throw a ball, some with a place the dogs can swim. I live in the suburbs in the San Francisco Bay Area, so we don't have country roads. And small fenced yards are the norm here too, nothing that could remotely be described as property, lol. But I'm about a mile from a regional park with some paved walking paths and 20 miles of hiking trails. The trails, outside of developed areas such as parking lots, picnic areas, campgrounds, and the marina, are off leash under voice control. But there's poison oak right next to many trails, lots of fun wildlife (to chase into the poison oak!), and the lake has toxic algae and doesn't allow swimming by humans or dogs. Three dogs died from going in the water a couple of years ago, and my dogs LOVE to swim so we do leashed hikes there and save running free to the off leash parks.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Nigel said:


> Lol, I rarely walk mine, walking around a neighborhood is boring, lol


Agreed! I walk here - this is the view from the campground, you may be able to see the path and trails along the edge of the lake in these photos:


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Agreed! I walk here - this is the view from the campground, you may be able to see the path and trails along the edge of the lake in these photos:



That's a much better view! I let mine loose in the National forest, natures agility course. The only time I ask anything of them is to platz in a safe place when I'm about to fell a tree. Once it's down they are free to roam, with their Hunter orange on of course.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I thought National Forests didn't allow dogs at all?


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

National forest require a 6' leash on interpretive trails and developed recreational areas. There are no leash requirements in general forest areas.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> My "short" walks are 3-4+ miles! We have several good multi-acre open space off leash areas to throw a ball, some with a place the dogs can swim. I live in the suburbs in the San Francisco Bay Area, so we don't have country roads. And small fenced yards are the norm here too, nothing that could remotely be described as property, lol. But I'm about a mile from a regional park with some paved walking paths and 20 miles of hiking trails. The trails, outside of developed areas such as parking lots, picnic areas, campgrounds, and the marina, are off leash under voice control. But there's poison oak right next to many trails, lots of fun wildlife (to chase into the poison oak!), and the lake has toxic algae and doesn't allow swimming by humans or dogs. Three dogs died from going in the water a couple of years ago, and my dogs LOVE to swim so we do leashed hikes there and save running free to the off leash parks.


Hey Debbie,you forgot about the foxtails.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Different kinds of walks, but I'm guessing the question is about leashed walks which are necessary. My answer is, it depends. I actually walk for me, for exercise, which means at a fast pace in a forward direction, which is 100% boring and incredibly unnatural (and frustrating) for a dog.

So, I expect my dog to walk with me, with safe acceptable behaviour (which is not easy and not always fun for the dog) when on a leash. If the street scape is wide enough and without traffic, he gets 6' leash and he needs to figure out how much 'fun' he can have within that circle. Where there is traffic and zero room (no sidewalks) he will be in a heel position or very short lead (effectively a heel position) so no sniffing there.

I compromise, so he gets to sniff at times (sometimes with express permission). I also take 'training breaks', and while my current guy is not a gsd, he's pretty much the same in loveing some 'brain food' to keep things interesting & fun. I'm lucky enough to have two little parks along road to do a little fun training & fetch most of the time, but on the road portions, no, he's not allowed to sniff & pee anytime time he likes, sometimes he just has to put up with boring and deal with me marching forward. I do not force him to walk behind me ever, I do force him to walk beside me sometimes because the alternative is becoming roadkill. Ahead is just fine as long he's acting safely (not being potential roadkill)


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> I thought National Forests didn't allow dogs at all?


I am surrounded by national forest. Dogs are allowed here. State parks vary.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I thought National Forests didn't allow dogs at all?


You may be thinking of wilderness areas. Wilderness areas have a lot of restrictions, no dogs, bicycles, etc... National forest are open to a lot of uses, camping, firewood cutting and the like.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

I use a command " sniff". This is a release from heeling. My dog is free to sniff around within the bounds of the leaks. It's also for allowing my dog to sniff out a good place to poop.

I allow pulling on the leash here too. It's great exercise for the dog.

BYRON


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I always let my dogs sniff when we go for a walk even in the neighborhood or anywhere else. I can say I enjoy my walks with them it is the whole point for me to get some exercise and for the dogs to catch some smells and get out. Enjoy some time with me. Luna is younger she smells like a maniac If for ever she pulls sometimes she does when I walk her with max and kids -I shortened the leash some corrections I make her sit and such she behaves then I loosen the leash. On busy road they both have to walk on a shorter leash and it?s is a controlled walk. I don?t let them pee on mail boxes and peoples property. Near woods in neighborhood I let them sniff.I let max lift his leg on walks let him enjoy life as long as is not peeing on someone flowers and trying to pull me to go pee we are good. When walking they know when to just sniff and walk they are not always stopping. I always did this. They do know when I?m on a mission walk -versus let?s slow down time to relax walk. I?m not Not a jogger my kids are and the dogs do not pull to sniff. Same with the bike. My dogs are always on a loose leash just as long they are not pulling. I do enjoy my walks with them and vice versa.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> I let my dogs be dogs when walking. They are free to stop, sniff and pee. Walks are for my dogs, for them to be dogs. They are not required to "march in single file" for the whole walk. If I need to walk through traffic or pass other dogs, then I give a "heel" command. Then the dog can go back to sniffing and being a dog. I do enough training with my dogs that I have no use for the "structured walk." If I need my dog to walk at my side I give a heel command, then I release the dog. When I am out walking my dog we are out for a walk. I totally agree with Cliff on this.
> 
> Think of it this way, a dog has the mentality of a small child. When kids are in school they have to behave and walk single file down the halls. On their lunch break, they get time to run around the playground and be kids. If the children were forced to march in single file for 40 minutes around the playground, school would be really boring and unpleasant. I don't want to be boring to my dogs and I expect a high level of performance form them.
> 
> The whole Cesar Milan thing of the dog never being allowed to be in front is one of the things he does that I don't agree with. I also do not like "calm submissive" dogs. Because of what he does to the dog to achieve that state of mind. For me, structured walks are something that I do not do. The only thing structured about walking my dog is where we are going and how long my dog gets to walk for.


I agree with this on a trail hike or in a park, but letting a dog be a dog when walking in a dense city environment is not a good idea IMO. There are so many scents and smells to distract from the walk and I don't think its good etiquette to let your dog mark on every post or bench. Allowing your dog be a dog during a city walk would risk them eating garbage or who knows what else.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Wolfhund said:


> I agree with this on a trail hike or in a park, but letting a dog be a dog when walking in a dense city environment is not a good idea IMO. There are so many scents and smells to distract from the walk and I don't think its good etiquette to let your dog mark on every post or bench. Allowing your dog be a dog during a city walk would risk them eating garbage or who knows what else.


Obviously, it is situational and a modicum of control is needed. It's easy enough to say "leave it" and keep walking. It is also easy enough to have a command for a dog to do it's business, I use "take a break." Marking is different than going to the bathroom and I would't allow my dog to stop and mark every few feet. Walking through a city shouldn't be that much of a big deal with a well behaved dog. I see quite a few dogs on my trips to Manhattan. I am aware of my surroundings and what is going on around me and my dog. Eating chicken bones or garbage is obedience and a simple "out" or "leave it" is enough for my dogs. I pay attention to them where ever we go and because I let them relax and be dogs on walks, doesn't mean they will not listen or their obedience is out the window.

Naturally, you have to do what you are comfortable with or what is best for your dog and situation.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I think some of the best adventures I have had with my dog have been our downtown city walks. I do let mine "be a dog" during these outings just as I do when we are in the park. He often will stop, sniff, and check stuff out - He was not sure what to make of the guys on stilts when we went to pride parade a few months back. He just plopped his butt down and watched them for a good few minutes trying to figure them out. For us, experiencing the scents, sights and sounds of the city is the whole point of the walk! So they definitely don't distract us from it. I think my dog is particularly fond of his urban adventures as they usually involve us getting a bite to eat at one of the dog friendly patios. He has a deep love of chipotle steak bowls and brixx pizza :grin2:

He has been trained not to mark when on leash since puppyhood. He will only "go" on command when he has his walking gear on... The risk for him getting into dangerous city garbage is probably less than he risk of him getting bit by a snake out in the woods, thanks to a strong leave it command and discarded chicken bones not being spring loaded the way vipers are.  When we are in a more crowded area, I shorten the leash, when we have the sidewalk to ourselves I let him do his thing (If people approach I do shorten the leash again out of common courtesy). If needed he can switch "on" the obedience at the drop of a hat, but I don't find it fair to the dog to demand formal obedience during the entire length of a walk - city or country.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

My hubby and I walk my dogs around D.C. on occasion and if the sidewalk is clear we'll let them move on ahead and sniff. But we maintain a good pace and don't really stop for anything but a potty break. And even that we discourage until we get to a "natural" spot. We don't let them soak a concrete corner, for example. 

If the sidewalks get busy or there are tourists that seems nervous around dogs, we'll walk with the dogs close to us with a short but loose leash. 

Since this is a completely public forum maybe I shouldn't admit to this but we do let our dogs have the length of a 15 ft leash in National or State forests and parks. BUT we keep them on the trail, and again, if the trail gets busy, we shorten their reach.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

voodoolamb "but I don't find it fair to the dog to demand formal obedience during the entire length of a walk - city or country."

who is asking for this?


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

car2ner said:


> My hubby and I walk my dogs around D.C. on occasion and if the sidewalk is clear we'll let them move on ahead and sniff. But we maintain a good pace and don't really stop for anything but a potty break. And even that we discourage until we get to a "natural" spot. We don't let them soak a concrete corner, for example.
> 
> If the sidewalks get busy or there are tourists that seems nervous around dogs, we'll walk with the dogs close to us with a short but loose leash.
> 
> Since this is a completely public forum maybe I shouldn't admit to this but we do let our dogs have the length of a 15 ft leash in National or State forests and parks. BUT we keep them on the trail, and again, if the trail gets busy, we shorten their reach.


Great method and is allows your dogs to enjoy more freedom and is also respective of people. Congrats on keeping your dog on a leash (and 15 ft. isn't like a 25 ft. line) in National and State forests and parks. Where I live, most of the dogs are off leash in the state park even though it is against the law. It can be frustrating for those of use who walk our dogs on leash.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> Obviously, it is situational and a modicum of control is needed. It's easy enough to say "leave it" and keep walking. It is also easy enough to have a command for a dog to do it's business, I use "take a break." Marking is different than going to the bathroom and I would't allow my dog to stop and mark every few feet. Walking through a city shouldn't be that much of a big deal with a well behaved dog. I see quite a few dogs on my trips to Manhattan. I am aware of my surroundings and what is going on around me and my dog. Eating chicken bones or garbage is obedience and a simple "out" or "leave it" is enough for my dogs. I pay attention to them where ever we go and because I let them relax and be dogs on walks, doesn't mean they will not listen or their obedience is out the window.
> 
> Naturally, you have to do what you are comfortable with or what is best for your dog and situation.


Yes, that is why I let my dog have several breaks on a structured walk. But until he is released there is no sniffing around or licking things or marking on objects. There have been cases of dogs ingesting narcotics like crystal meth (discovered during testing in the ER) after owners allowed their dogs to be positively free to explore everything and anything on city walks. It is a safety issue. Not everyone lives in the nicest part of the city that is lined with Mansions and sparkling sidewalks.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Wolfhund said:


> Yes, that is why I let my dog have several breaks on a structured walk. But until he is released there is no sniffing around or licking things or marking on objects. There have been cases of dogs ingesting narcotics like crystal meth (discovered during testing in the ER) after owners allowed their dogs to be positively free to explore everything and anything on city walks. It is a safety issue. Not everyone lives in the nicest part of the city that is lined with Mansions and sparkling sidewalks.


You need to do what is best for you and your dogs. You need to feel comfortable walking your dog. While I live in a very nice area of my city, at work I walk my dog in some very seedy and dangerous parts of my city. I have never had an issue with my dog licking anything while on a walk or ingesting anything. As I said, I am very, actually extremely situationally aware while out with my dogs. I keep my head on a swivel as 2 of my 3 dogs will bite with little provocation. I also work narcotics K-9's and ingesting meth is a very rare occurrence, even for Police K-9's. Fentanyl is becoming a concern, but with that a small number of K-9's have been exposed. It would be extremely unlikely for some one to leave meth in the street for a pet dog to ingest. Most meth heads cherish their dope and rarely leave it lying around the street. Although I'm sure it could happen.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> I think some of the best adventures I have had with my dog have been our downtown city walks. I do let mine "be a dog" during these outings just as I do when we are in the park. He often will stop, sniff, and check stuff out - He was not sure what to make of the guys on stilts when we went to pride parade a few months back. He just plopped his butt down and watched them for a good few minutes trying to figure them out. For us, experiencing the scents, sights and sounds of the city is the whole point of the walk! So they definitely don't distract us from it. I think my dog is particularly fond of his urban adventures as they usually involve us getting a bite to eat at one of the dog friendly patios. He has a deep love of chipotle steak bowls and brixx pizza :grin2:
> 
> He has been trained not to mark when on leash since puppyhood. He will only "go" on command when he has his walking gear on... The risk for him getting into dangerous city garbage is probably less than he risk of him getting bit by a snake out in the woods, thanks to a strong leave it command and discarded chicken bones not being spring loaded the way vipers are.  When we are in a more crowded area, I shorten the leash, when we have the sidewalk to ourselves I let him do his thing (If people approach I do shorten the leash again out of common courtesy). If needed he can switch "on" the obedience at the drop of a hat, but I don't find it fair to the dog to demand formal obedience during the entire length of a walk - city or country.


There is a difference between loose leash walking a dog (while making sure he walks nicely without pulling) and focused heeling. Most handlers don't equate a structured walk with focused heeling or even heeling right next to your leg. I still don't let my dog forge ahead on loose leash walks but I give him much more leeway than I do on a formal heel. 

Random question. Do you walk your dog on a harness?


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Larry Krohn succinctly discusses the importance of structured walks:


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Wolfhund said:


> There is a difference between loose leash walking a dog that and making sure he walks nicely without pulling and focused heeling. Most handlers don't equate a structured walk with focused heeling or even heeling right next to your leg. I still don't let my dog forge ahead on loose leash walks but he if I give him more leeway than I do on a formal heel.
> 
> Random question. Do you walk your dog on a harness?


Why do you ask?

I do not own a harness. When walked on lead I either use a flat buckle collar or a sip lead. Just depends on what I grab off the hook and if the dog is already wearing a collar. The vast majority of our walks are actually off lead. The only time I really use a leash is when we go down town and to festivals - and that is more because I do not want to be pestered by the officers reminding me of a leash law more than it is because my dog needs a leash to behave himself. 

My dog has been taught to yield to leash pressure (loose leash walking), an off leash "with me" command (where he can be in any position but no more than about 6 feet away) a functional heel command and a focused heel command (both of which can be done on or off lead) 

Perhaps we have a different definition of what it means to "let a dog be a dog" on a walk.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Why do you ask?
> 
> I do not own a harness. When walked on lead I either use a flat buckle collar or a sip lead. Just depends on what I grab off the hook and if the dog is already wearing a collar. The vast majority of our walks are actually off lead. The only time I really use a leash is when we go down town and to festivals - and that is more because I do not want to be pestered by the officers reminding me of a leash law more than it is because my dog needs a leash to behave himself.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's a lot of variation. I don't see how leash pressure is not implemented in some way in your three other forms of walking. Could you explain? How is an off-leash "with me" any different from a with me for loose leash walking?

I asked about the harness because I was just curious if you allowed your dog to pull you around on a harness while he explored during a city walk. I still don't understand how you are able to allow your dog to explore and chase after smells while at the same time respecting the space of others on crowded sidewalks.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Wolfhund said:


> Wow, that's a lot of variation.


Yep. Right tool for the right job... or as the case may be the right command for the right situation. 

Loose leash walking/yielding to leash pressure is more for the benefit of other people who may have to handle my dog than for what he and I use daily. They can get him from point A to B without having an arm pulled from the socket.

Heel is used for crowds, in stores, while going to and from the ring/arena, etc. His shoulder is parallel to my knee, but he has his head.

Focused heel is just a fun training exercise for us and I originally trained for competition. 

With me is what I use the most, out on trails and on our neighborhood walk. He can move 6 feet ahead of me, stop to sniff and keep sniffing until I get 6 feet ahead of him and then he continues on. He can be on any side. 




> I don't see how leash pressure is not implemented in some way in your three other forms of walking. Could you explain?


Both my dog's focused heel and functional heel were trained motivationally with luring, marking, and rewarding for position then building up the 3Ds. The biggest difference between the two (other than eye contact in the focused heel) is that I train focus heel IN drive, for greater animation and enthusiasm while the functional heel is trained OUT of drive, as I don't want him associating the command with needing to be revved up. 

I don't use leash pressure to train my heel work, both types of heel were taught off leash FIRST, leashes weren't added to the equation until after the behavior was already well established and I had a reasonable expectation of compliance. 

'With me' I teach more akin to boundary training. I use a negative marker to disrupt the behavior when the boundary is met and reward and praise for returning to the "bubble" 



> How is an off-leash "with me" any different from a with me for loose leash walking?


Well... it's different because it doesn't require the dog to be on a leash... 

But seriously. I don't use any vocal commands during loose leash walking. I just teach my dogs to yield to leash pressure from day one. I never associate the behavior with a command they are just taught to always keep slack in the line if they want the walk to continue.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

I think we have completely different philosophies. I use leash pressure to teach and communicate information to the dog. I think if you are still needing to use constant leash pressure to communicate for a "loose leash" walk then you have not really taught a dog to walk with a loose leash if he is continually hitting the end of the leash and needing pressure to be reminded that he is at the end of the line. I think that is unfair and confusing after a certain point in time. I would much rather teach my dog a radius or zone around me where he is allowed some leeway to move about but never having to constantly hit the end of the line.

I did not assume you taught your formal heels initially with leash pressure, but as you state, you did use leash work, which I think I can reasonably assume required leash pressure in the proofing stages at some point.

Your definition of "with me" is completely different from mine. I use "with me" both on-leash and off-leash. For me, six feet is too distant for the control I want. Off-leash I rarely require a "bubble" because I expect a good recall that has been proofed with an ecollar.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Mary Beth said:


> Great method and is allows your dogs to enjoy more freedom and is also respective of people. Congrats on keeping your dog on a leash (and 15 ft. isn't like a 25 ft. line) in National and State forests and parks. Where I live, most of the dogs are off leash in the state park even though it is against the law. It can be frustrating for those of use who walk our dogs on leash.


Hi Mary,

I was wondering what is frustrating about the off leash dogs. Do they come up to your dogs and bother them or do they have an unreliable recall?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Wolfhund said:


> I think we have completely different philosophies.


Most likely. 

I myself have absolutely zero need for a "structured walk" 



> I use leash pressure to teach and communicate information to the dog. I think if you are still needing to use constant leash pressure to communicate for a "loose leash" walk then you have not really taught a dog to walk with a loose leash if he is continually hitting the end of the leash and needing pressure to be reminded that he is at the end of the line. I think that is unfair and confusing after a certain point in time. I would much rather teach my dog a radius or zone around me where he is allowed some leeway to move about but never having to constantly hit the end of the line.


Who is using constant leash pressure to communicate for a loose leash walk? 

The dog does not constantly hit the end of the line. I have found that most dogs figure out the radius of the leash pretty quickly, once they learn to properly yield to pressure, mine _maybe_ let the leash get taught once after it's on. 

This works for me because then I can use a variety of leash lengths to allow more or less freedom, and that transitions beautifully for tie out usage. I can take my guy on a camping trip tomorrow and put him on a 10', 20', 50', or even a 100' foot tie out line and not have to worry about him testing it because he has been trained to yield to pressure



> I did not assume you taught your formal heels initially with leash pressure, but as you state, you did use leash work, which I think I can reasonably assume required leash pressure in the proofing stages at some point.


You know what they say about assumptions... I don't think I ever said I do "leash work"... I said I sometimes use leashes on walks... and that I teach to yield to leash pressure... I don't really use leash corrections with my current dog. 



> Your definition of "with me" is completely different from mine. I use "with me" both on-leash and off-leash. For me, six feet is too distant for the control I want. Off-leash I rarely require a "bubble" because I expect a good recall that has been proofed with an ecollar.


What ever works for you. I like having options. When I need more control I have a heel command, when I want the dog to have more freedom but don't want him too far I have our with me command, when I want to let him run full out and raise some heck - he's got a rock solid recall.

I also live and exercise my dog in an urban environment, so I do require a "bubble" on a regular basis. Not so much for me or my dog's sake, but for the common courtesy of other people.

You never explained your harness comment and the curiosity is killing me.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Voodoolamb,

You may not be using corrections, but you are definitely using an aversive. Leash pressure is R-. 

Regarding the harness comment: I was asking because if you are loose-leash walking and letting your dog hit the end of the line constantly, it would seem gentler on the dog to let them do it on a harness than being jolted at the end by a prong on the neck. 

"This works for me because then I can use a variety of leash lengths to allow more or less freedom, and that transitions beautifully for tie out usage. I can take my guy on a camping trip tomorrow and put him on a 10', 20', 50', or even a 100' foot tie out line and not have to worry about him testing it because he has been trained to yield to pressure"

How does your dog distinguish what the length of the line is? I would be curious to know.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Wolfhund said:


> Voodoolamb,
> 
> You may not be using corrections, but you are definitely using an aversive. Leash pressure is R-.


Nope. 

I do not use leash pressure to train my dog, I teach my dog to avoid leash tension (aka yielding to pressure)

I put my pup on a flat buckle and leash and let him explore and have some fun, as soon as there is the hint of tension on the line I IMMEDIATELY stop walking. Removing the fun of going forward. Once the dog puts slack back into the line, I mark, praise and continue the walk. Rinse and repeat until the dog learns not to put tension on the leash. 

And I do not mean I stop once he starts pulling, I mean I stop once the slack in the line is gone, when the tension can just barely be felt but they aren't quite at the end yet. 

This is P- (with a little R+ for good measure) Not R-. 



> Regarding the harness comment: I was asking because if you are loose-leash walking and letting your dog hit the end of the line constantly, it would seem gentler on the dog to let them do it on a harness than being jolted at the end by a prong on the neck.


I don't use a prong on my dog. Why would you assume I do?

And the dog does NOT constantly hit the end of the line. He doesn't hit the end of the line at all.



> "This works for me because then I can use a variety of leash lengths to allow more or less freedom, and that transitions beautifully for tie out usage. I can take my guy on a camping trip tomorrow and put him on a 10', 20', 50', or even a 100' foot tie out line and not have to worry about him testing it because he has been trained to yield to pressure"
> 
> How does your dog distinguish what the length of the line is? I would be curious to know.


By the feel of the tension in the line.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Voodoolamb,

"I put my pup on a flat buckle and leash and let him explore and have some fun, as soon as there is the hint of tension on the line I IMMEDIATELY stop walking. Removing the fun of going forward. Once the dog puts slack back into the line, I mark, praise and continue the walk. Rinse and repeat until the dog learns not to put tension on the leash."

You use a flat buckle on a pup? If you have a highly motivated pup and he is running towards something and you stop them, this could cause trachea damage. Also, why not use a harness when they are pups and use leash pressure later? Despite it technically being negative punishment when you stop a pup from moving on a flat collar, from the pup's perspective, it could easily be perceived as a painful aversive. It's hard to imagine training a high drive puppy to walk nicely on a flat collar without causing either some suppression in motivation or some serious chocking and gagging. If you have a flat dog, you could probably get away with this, which sound like you must have. 

"By the feel of the tension in the line"

If you are communicating via tension on the line, that is leash pressure (long line or short line) and that is R-. I am sure many people here would agree with me. Shall we take a poll? Let's not obfuscate what an aversive is.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Wolfhund said:


> Regarding the harness comment: I was asking because if you are loose-leash walking and letting your dog hit the end of the line constantly, it would seem gentler on the dog to let them do it on a harness than being jolted at the end by a prong on the neck.


 this is misleading. If the prong is fit properly it doesn't stay at the end of the line constantly. It very quickly learns to stop that. The harness does nothing to stop pulling and it actually makes it easier for the dog to pull and pull harder. Anyone who says otherwise must've have never seen any kind of sled or weight pulling dog sports. 

I let my dog be a dog on walks. He can stop, sniff, run up ahead or whatever. But I'm fortunate that where I live I have lots of open spaces for him to do that. If I were to walk him in a city setting where we encounter people and other pets I'd probably shorten up the leash and do a structured walk or an informal heel.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> this is misleading. If the prong is fit properly it doesn't stay at the end of the line constantly. It very quickly learns to stop that. The harness does nothing to stop pulling and it actually makes it easier for the dog to pull and pull harder. Anyone who says otherwise must've have never seen any kind of sled or weight pulling dog sports.


Hi there,

I am not trying to mislead. I am not anti prong and I used it myself to teach walking in the zone and to stop pulling behavior. I do know that in some dogs, self-correcting into the prong is not sufficient. They will build up a tolerance to it and it becomes the new norm. In my dog, I had to correct with a small pop everytime I felt the least bit of tension. This eventually stopped the pulling behavior. Self-correcting just allowed him to rehearse the opposition reflex just as much as a flat collar. If you have a sensitive dog, I am sure self-correcting into the prong would be sufficient. 

I am very aware that harnesses encourage pulling. There is nothing wrong with a young puppy pulling you around on a harness. Anyone can manage that. You can use this time period as an opportunity to do exercises that increase motivation and drive such as restrained recalls and tug work. Then around six months you can start working in leash pressure to have them yield to the leash.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Wolfhund said:


> thegooseman90 said:
> 
> 
> > this is misleading. If the prong is fit properly it doesn't stay at the end of the line constantly. It very quickly learns to stop that. The harness does nothing to stop pulling and it actually makes it easier for the dog to pull and pull harder. Anyone who says otherwise must've have never seen any kind of sled or weight pulling dog sports.
> ...


 I kinda realized that after the fact, I think several replies later. I'm not a fan of self correction and you're right they become conditioned to the collar and it stops being effective. The small pop is the correct way to do it. Same with an e-collar and gradually working up higher and higher.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Wolfhund said:


> You use a flat buckle on a pup? If you have a highly motivated pup and he is running towards something and you stop this cause trachea damage.


Context my dear, context. This isn't an exercise I would train when the dog is revved up. It starts with a simple walk around the boring old back yard. Zero risk for trachea damage.

The idea is that slight tension on the leash becomes a physical 'negative marker'. It's the equivalent of many people's verbal "eh eh". As in you are beginning to do the wrong thing.

And yes, I have away used flat buckles or slip leashes on pups. I train to yield to leash pressure early on and have never had a problem



> Also, why not use a harness when they are pups and use leash pressure later?


Because harness are FOR pulling. Collars are not. There are some instances when I want my dog to CREATE tension/for him to apply leash pressure. I would use a harness for this. I have been involved with mushing sports on and off over the years. I'm not going to ruin a dog for that by teaching him to yield to pressure in harness. 



> That could be technically negative punishment when you stop a pup from moving on a flat collar but from the pup's perspective, it could easily be perceived as a painful aversive.


Once again... context. You seem to have an image in your head of a dog running full out and me slamming on the brakes and giving the pup whiplash. That is not what is happening here.

It would take a seriously seriously sensitive dog to find the gentle tightening of the line I am taking about to be painful. The dog creates the leash pressure, this isn't something that is done with the dog at full momentum. We are talking about the pressure created when the dog pulls against a stationary object at a gentle walk.

Trained dozens of dogs this way. Not a single one of them reacted to it as they would a painful aversive. 




> It's hard to imagine training a high drive puppy to walk nicely on a flat collar without causing either some suppression in motivation or some serious chocking and gagging.


Just because you can't do something. Doesn't mean that others can't. 

I am a big believer in slowly building up the 3 Ds (Distance, Duration, and Distraction) and teaching impulse control.

It works for me. 



> If you a flat dog, you could probably get away with this, *which sound like you must have*.


hahahahahahahahahahahaha

FAR from it. He's totally 3D. 

He is also high energy, defensive, and civil. Mix lined dog with working drives.



> If you are communicating via tension on the line, that is leash pressure (long line or short line) and that is R-. I am sure many people here would agree with me. Shall we take a poll? Let's not obfuscate what an aversive is.


Having been around this forum a few years now... I honestly could not care less what the results of a "poll" would be :laugh2:

You are missing one very important piece to the puzzle here. In operant conditioning the learner decides what is a reinforcer and what is a punishment.

Leash pressure (pressure as in the dictionary definiton 1.the continuous physical force exerted on or against an object by something in contact with it.) is not always an automatic R-. Context of the situation matters and the individual your are training matters a great deal.

Negative reinforcement is the removal of unfavorable stimuli after the display of a behavior.

Not all dogs are going to find leash pressure to be an unfavorable stimuli though. For example I have had dogs that find pulling to be a very rewarding behavior. They _enjoyed_ putting pressure on the leash, in no way would leash pressure ever be a suitable stimuli for negative reinforcement for those individuals (I have had ones it could be used as a positive reinforcer though! LOL). Plenty of dogs out there that do not find leash pressure on a flat buckle collar to be unfavorable enough for training purposes. This is why we have invented prongs, choke chains, e collars, etc. 

Also, many of the interactions we are going to have with our dogs are going to over lap the quadrants, in those cases - what has a bigger impact on the individual?

The way I teach loose leash walking, the negative punishment of not allowing the exploration or walking continue has a MUCH MUCH bigger impact than the slight leash pressure ever would. 

We all are going to have different needs and wants for our dogs training wise. With different methods and ideals to get there. As long as you are not abusing your dogs and get the results you need, then I am a live and let live kinda person. No need to be rude on the internet over dog training. :wink2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Slamdunc said:


> You need to do what is best for you and your dogs. You need to feel comfortable walking your dog. While I live in a very nice area of my city, at work I walk my dog in some very seedy and dangerous parts of my city. I have never had an issue with my dog licking anything while on a walk or ingesting anything. As I said, I am very, actually extremely situationally aware while out with my dogs. I keep my head on a swivel as 2 of my 3 dogs will bite with little provocation. I also work narcotics K-9's and ingesting meth is a very rare occurrence, even for Police K-9's. Fentanyl is becoming a concern, but with that a small number of K-9's have been exposed. It would be extremely unlikely for some one to leave meth in the street for a pet dog to ingest. Most meth heads cherish their dope and rarely leave it lying around the street. Although I'm sure it could happen.


"Most meth heads cherish their dope "

LOL

Sadly and disgustingly, my old road in FL, which was rural in the middle of nowhere and was mostly farms and cattle but with a mix of trailer parks and and some pretty seedy people-- there were syringes on the side of the road all the time--in front of a cattle pasture. A weird combination. I was constantly freaked out and being sure my dogs weren't messing with drug paraphernalia lying around. There are some empty beer cans where we live now, and I do pick those up and take them home to recycle but I was not touching those syringes!!!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wolfhund said:


> Wow, that's a lot of variation. I don't see how leash pressure is not implemented in some way in your three other forms of walking. Could you explain? How is an off-leash "with me" any different from a with me for loose leash walking?
> 
> I asked about the harness because I was just curious if you allowed your dog to pull you around on a harness while he explored during a city walk. I still don't understand how you are able to allow your dog to explore and chase after smells while at the same time respecting the space of others on crowded sidewalks.


I have one answer to this. I take my younger dog to both of the towns nearest me regularly to be sure he remembers that civilization exists. If I didn't drive him a half hour to do this he wouldn't know sidewalks were a thing. 

One is more "city" like than the other, but basically if no one is around on the sidewalk I'll let him have maybe 4 feet of his leash to smell stuff and do whatever. If someone is coming toward us, I'll either bring him right up by my side of step off the sidewalk and sit him if it's too cramped or the person looks afraid of him, or a little kid who might reach over and grab him, or whatever. I always yield to everyone else because I'm the one walking a big wolfy dog who people might not want to be near. If it's just a single person and there is room, I'd just put him right next to me as we pass. He is very responsive and if I ask him to stop doing whatever he is doing and come get close to me he will, and he will do it quickly, because that's something I've heavily rewarded.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> Yep. Right tool for the right job... or as the case may be the right command for the right situation.
> 
> Loose leash walking/yielding to leash pressure is more for the benefit of other people who may have to handle my dog than for what he and I use daily. They can get him from point A to B without having an arm pulled from the socket.
> 
> ...


I *think* I know what the miscommunication is about leash pressure in walking-- Voodoo correct me if I'm wrong but for my dogs, and I think what you are saying for yours-- is that if I shorten the leash up suddenly they will feel the new limit to their leash when they encounter the pressure of the leash which they will then yield to. So there is like a moment of "oh, there's the leash, I have to stay closer now" and that's I guess assuming no verbal was given or maybe accompanying a verbal. 

That's not the same thing as a dog who has no idea what it's supposed to do and is just hanging on the leash with light or less light pressure, and the owner is restraining it into a position.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I *think* I know what the miscommunication is about leash pressure in walking-- Voodoo correct me if I'm wrong but for my dogs, and I think what you are saying for yours-- is that if I shorten the leash up suddenly they will feel the new limit to their leash when they encounter the pressure of the leash which they will then yield to. So there is like a moment of "oh, there's the leash, I have to stay closer now" and that's I guess assuming no verbal was given or maybe accompanying a verbal.
> 
> That's not the same thing as a dog who has no idea what it's supposed to do and is just hanging on the leash with light or less light pressure, and the owner is restraining it into a position.


Yep. You got it! 

Mine are taught to never allow tension/pressure on the leash, so if I were to shorten it they would automatically move in closer to me and create slack in the line. IE keeping the leash loose. 

No verbal cue at all is used.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Boy, walking your dog should be one of the easiest, most simple things to do with him. R+, Youtube lectures, leash pressure. I know I'm not the detailed type, but this seems like a whole lot of minutiae Wolfhund. Things are a whole lot simpler then they read. You won't ruin your dog if you say with me at the wrong time.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Lol, I rarely walk mine, walking around a neighborhood is boring, lol


Oh by and large, it depends on where you live. Lot's of us have found, local neighborhood walks to be chuck full of unexpected "excitement."


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Wolfhund said:


> Hi Mary,
> 
> I was wondering what is frustrating about the off leash dogs. Do they come up to your dogs and bother them or do they have an unreliable recall?


All of the above  The dogs are usualliy about 20 ft. or so ahead of the owners who do nothing while they circle around my dog and tease him. I have gotten to the point where I simply don't walk in those areas.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Mary Beth said:


> All of the above  The dogs are usualliy about 20 ft. or so ahead of the owners who do nothing while they circle around my dog and tease him. I have gotten to the point where I simply don't walk in those areas.


I think the problem is a lack of recall training that hasn't been proofed with an ecollar or similar aversive such as a prong on a long line. I believe there are some dogs that don't need this proofing with aversives, but the majority do. At some point a dog needs to know there are negative consequences for failure to obey and I think the one command where aversives make the most sense irregardless of your personal training philosophy is the recall.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I *think* I know what the miscommunication is about leash pressure in walking-- Voodoo correct me if I'm wrong but for my dogs, and I think what you are saying for yours-- is that if I shorten the leash up suddenly they will feel the new limit to their leash when they encounter the pressure of the leash which they will then yield to. So there is like a moment of "oh, there's the leash, I have to stay closer now" and that's I guess assuming no verbal was given or maybe accompanying a verbal.
> 
> That's not the same thing as a dog who has no idea what it's supposed to do and is just hanging on the leash with light or less light pressure, and the owner is restraining it into a position.


A couple points on this. 

The learning process involves negative reinforcement. Leash pressure is taught through negative reinforcement. Yes, it is a communication tool and eventually, you will need very little pressure to communicate, but it still is technically R-

Lastly, if you are using leash pressure constantly over time as your main communication tool without training what your dog is supposed to do, then off leash control becomes much harder. That's fine if you don't mind your dog being tethered all the time, but if you want true off-leash control I think at some point it is better to stop relying on leash pressure and just teach zones where your dog knows he is not supposed to wander off too far unless you release him.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Mary Beth said:


> All of the above  The dogs are usualliy about 20 ft. or so ahead of the owners who do nothing while they circle around my dog and tease him. I have gotten to the point where I simply don't walk in those areas.


Oh ... you've seen dogs with owners?? >


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Wolfhund said:


> A couple points on this.
> 
> *The learning process involves negative reinforcement*. Leash pressure is taught through negative reinforcement. Yes, it is a communication tool and eventually, you will need very little pressure to communicate, but it still is technically R-


I think the confusion here is you are automatically associating "leash pressure" with the act of a handler APPLYING pressure then releasing it. 

I am speaking of a more general meaning of pressure, not any fancy dog training terms, just the dictionary definition of pressure - including the tightness the dog creates in the leash that he can only release himself. 

this is a more eloquently written description of the method I use to teach loose leash walking



smartanimaltraining.com said:


> Be a tree: Our goal here is to teach the dog that pulling does not work. Anytime the dog pulls, we stop moving forwards, we plant our roots. The dog will naturally keep trying to pull, but there is always a point where he/she turns around, looks back to check on us, and/or puts slack in the leash. Click and treat, then move forward again. With repetition, the dog will start looking at us and putting slack in the leash faster and faster. This method applies both negative punishment (we stop the forward movement, so we take away what the dog wants (-) to reduce the pulling (punishment)) and positive reinforcement (we click and treat for eye contact and slack in the leash (+) to increase both those behaviors (reinforcement)).


I am not sure the method that cowboy'sgirl uses for teach LLW, but the one I use is not R-.



> Lastly, if you are using leash pressure constantly over time as your main communication tool without training what your dog is supposed to do, then off leash control becomes much harder. That's fine if you don't mind your dog being tethered all the time, but if you want true off-leash control I think at some point it is better to stop relying on leash pressure and just teach zones where your dog knows he is not supposed to wander off too far unless you release him.


And who here is using leash pressure as the main communication tool? Who's dogs don't know what they are supposed to do? Who doesn't have true off leash control?


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Voodoolamb,

Regardless of whether the handler is applying the pressure or the pressure is created by dog pulling beyond the designated range of the leash given to him, it is still negative reinforcement if pressure is being released to reinforce a certain behavior i.e. don't pull beyond this zone or area. 

The tree method is P- and I am not a fan of this method in a highly motivated dog that likes to pull as this doesn't really teach him what he is supposed to be doing as in focusing on and moving with the handler. I think a version of Koehler 180 turn where you abruptly move in the opposite direction when the dog forges or pulls ahead works more efficiently as the dog realizes he needs to focus on you and it rewards him with movement into the behavior you want i.e. him moving with you. A slight pop in conjunction with a change of direction accompanied with a food reward is IMO the most efficient way to stop pulling behavior for less sensitive dogs. 

By standing there like a tree and rewarding him this just becomes a behavior chain where the dog learns that if he waits at the end of the line for a while he will be rewarded then gets to move again.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Oh by and large, it depends on where you live. Lot's of us have found, local neighborhood walks to be chuck full of unexpected "excitement."


I live central to a three neighborhoods and I have various routes through all of them. It seldom becomes boring for the dogs (unless it is humid out and then I get Zombie dog on the way back home). I get more bored than the dogs do so I listen to an audio book or podcast. (no head-phones. I want to hear my surroundings, just the phone's speaker). I do try to mix it up a bit during walks. At the playgrounds we do some urban agility. In the field we do a few fun recall drills or tug games. I am now trying to find places to do so trick-work so they realize it's now always done on the carpet in the living room. I know that sometimes we just want to take a calm walk, but often our dogs want to play with us...sigh. time to get that heart rate up. It's better for our health anyhow.
:wink2:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Wolfhund said:


> Lastly, if you are using leash pressure constantly over time as your main communication tool without training what your dog is supposed to do....


:thinking: Leash pressure is a training tool. If you're using it constantly over time, you haven't implemented the technique properly since the dog has obviously not learned to walk nicely on leash yet. 

The entire point of leash training is to show your dog what it's supposed to do. Once my dogs understand that, I'm no longer training them. I may still reinforce correct behavior from time to time, but the onus is on the dog to know what the rules are and to comply with them without having to be constantly reminded to do so.


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