# The dark side of IPO Sport



## Mrs.K

Patrick Keil aus Luxemburg - YouTube

Despite him being investigated for cruelty he still went to the FCI.


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## onyx'girl

wow...

at least the viewers are clicking dislike on that video....feel sorry for his team mate.


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## mycobraracr

I think I should do some OB with him! See how much he likes it.


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## Mrs.K

And they just sit there and watch....


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## Carriesue

Mrs.K said:


> And they just sit there and watch....


That's what I was thinking.... 

Though the dog screaming noises sound fake to me. I don't do IPO but I'm guessing the way he's correcting isn't normal.


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## Shade

He needs that whip shoved where the sun don't shine  That poor dog


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## Jax08

Facebook Post from the FCI IOP WM 2012 page




> I officially inform that Mr. Patrick Keil of the competitor is excluded to participate the fCI IPO 2012 based on the animal abuse revealed on youtube.
> 
> The FCI strongly and strictly condemns the act of any kind of this behaviour.


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## qbchottu

Very sad...
I have seen/heard of trainers in this country (even my area) that do things like this. Perhaps even worse. In fact, I am sure Keil is responsible for much worse in the privacy of his home and kennel. 

Something I was wondering about...in your opinions, what is the line between abuse and compulsion training? 

I remember once I was at a schh club and a member was doing his obedience routine with his tough (and I mean VERY hard and intense) working dog. He was using an ecollar to zap the dog into a focused heel. There was a lady attending that was new to schh and she was simply horrified by this type of training. She actually had to turn away because the corrections were too much for her. It's interesting that what is over the line for one person is just a normal training day for another.


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## Jo_in_TX

That's horrible. No "sport" is worth treating a dog like this.


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## juliejujubean

I feel so bad for that dog. Gives his all just to be beat. Karma will come. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## ShenzisMom

I have no problem issuing a correction...but if I had to chase my dog down like that to get results I would put the dog away and think. 'How did I screw up so badly that had to happen'. I have witnessed intense, driven dogs who need corrections...they showed no avoidance and kept going, even after a very harsh correction. I didn't see the dog worse for wear after..can someone point out if the dog was in distress?

I'm glad the FCI pulled him, do not get me wrong. I think there is another way to work with the hard dogs being bred and they do not need to be beaten to get results. Playing devils advocate, really...I'm going to go do a little OB with my girl and be happy our training is *not* like that!


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## 4TheDawgies

WOW that is downright wrong. That guy should NOT be training dogs. I cannot believe the people there just watch all of this unfold. Maybe they didn't feel comfortable telling him anything to his face so they told someone to hide in the bushes to film and chose this route. Either way, there is no way my big mouth would stand by and let that happen. I would refuse to be a part of any sort of group training if there was member blatantly abusing their dog. 
Using fair and well timed corrections to get a dog to comply is one thing. This man is not using well timed corrections, he is chasing his dog down, when his dog finally stops running he is beating it until he feels it has felt enough pain and his anger has subsided slightly. This man is punishing out of anger. 

He either could care less about how dogs fundamentally work as far as timing with corrections and rewards go, or he is a complete moron. Either way I am glad he got pulled from the FCI. I hope he takes a very long and hard look at himself and the way he trains. If this is what he feels is appropriate in public, I fear for his dogs lives in the privacy of his home...

Absolutely disgusting behavior.


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## Jag

I couldn't finish watching it. I hope that dog rips the guy's face off in his sleep.  I'm sorry, but if I were there, I'd have gotten up and beat the crud out of that moron. If I EVER see anything like this I would never, ever just sit there and watch or turn away. This is WAY over the line! He needs to be banned permanently!!


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## Jo_in_TX

ShenzisMom said:


> I have no problem issuing a correction...but if I had to chase my dog down like that to get results I would put the dog away and think. 'How did I screw up so badly that had to happen'. I have witnessed intense, driven dogs who need corrections...they showed no avoidance and kept going, even after a very harsh correction. I didn't see the dog worse for wear after..can someone point out if the dog was in distress


It's a sport. A game. A hobby. Someone's pride.

It's just not worth it, imo. If, for some reason, you must treat a dog this way to save his life or the life of someone else, that's another thing. But for a game?


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## BlackthornGSD

Not only excessive and abusive--but bad training with bad timing. That dog is a saint for not biting him.


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## holland

There is something off with that video


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## vom Eisenherz

Happens all the time. Off the top of my head, I can think of two WELL respected trainers who have killed dogs, both by kicking them to death, one out of anger because he messed up a track and one died after "learning" an exercise...can't remember which exercise.

Another national level trainer's regular correction to his dog is a hard punch squarely to the nose. This is yet another reason why points based training that brings out egos isn't in the best interest of the dog. The old pass/fail system, imo, was a better test and fairer to the dog in many aspects.


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## ShenzisMom

I am going to be going to sch. Training soon. I know its a game...but some people are so passionate they loose sight. Either way, if my dogs were ever to stop screaming with excitement and carrying on when they see their prongs I'd be having a deep talk with myself about priorities.


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## BlackthornGSD

holland said:


> There is something off with that video


The sounds are dubbed in--and it's the same sound re-used. I think they repeat the same moment several times, too, to make it look like he hits the dog repeatedly.


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## lhczth

This should be titled "The dark side of humans". This type of cruely is not limited to IPO. Good that the FCI took a stand!!


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## Freestep

The thing that amazes me is how hard that dog is, he keeps coming back and never shuts down. I am not sure what this guy is trying to accomplish with swiping his hands all around the dog's head; at that point, it doesn't look like he's even touching the dog, is he just trying to get the dog to focus?

Chasing a dog down with a whip is extraordinarily stupid, pointless, and mean, IMO. He's using fear and avoidance to get this dog into precise position, and his timing is awful to boot. It's a wonder this dog isn't an absolute mess.

However, it sounds to me like the screaming dog sounds are dubbed in. Either that or the sound isn't in sync with the video, because at times, it doesn't look like the dog is screaming when you hear the sound.


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## PupperLove

Ok, I understand everyone has their own way of training, but that is excessive....and why is he picking up the dog by the EARS?!! From what I understand, dogs need confidence to compete in these sports...this is going to backfire, majorly!


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## PupperLove

Freestep said:


> The thing that amazes me is how hard that dog is, he keeps coming back and never shuts down.


I was thinking the same! Eventually that dog will break.


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## selzer

I watched it. 

I was not concerned with the noise coming out of the dog. Some dogs are whiny screechy when excited. When he was using the whip along side, I have been encouraged to use a dowel rod alongside to keep the dog in position. You cannot hurt a dog that way. So that really didn't get me going. 

I did not like the way he chased after the dog with the whip, unreal. And, when the dog stopped biting he ran up and hit the dog, then chased the dog. Is that how they train them to go go go go go? 

And the people sitting by just another day in the yard. Weird. 

I am glad the FCI DQ'd him, but I hope that it was not off a doctor'd U-tube. I mean, I think there was enough on that u-tube to show that he is a scumbag that couldn't actually be doctored, but if someone actually tried to make it look worse, that kind of stinks too.


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## Syaoransbear

That's insane, it's just a sport. This reminds me of those parents that get in fights or yell at their children during their kids' sport game, or yell/hit them later because of the game. 

It's just a game, even police dogs whose mistakes can save or jeopardize _a life_ aren't trained that cruelly.


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## Mrs.K

Syaoransbear said:


> That's insane, it's just a sport. This reminds me of those parents that get in fights or yell at their children during their kids' sport game, or yell/hit them later because of the game.
> 
> It's just a game, even police dogs whose mistakes can save or jeopardize _a life_ aren't trained that cruelly.


It's not just a sport. It's a multi-million dollar business and when it is about money, or ambition, the animals are the ones that suffer.


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## wildo

Mrs.K said:


> It's not just a sport. It's a multi-million dollar business


Really?? I didn't know that at all. Who is making millions on it? (I assume it must be the FCI, but this really is news to me.) Do they make the millions based on advertising? Is the 1st place purse really very high?


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## lhczth

I finally watched the video and it is heavily edited to make it look and sound far worse than it is with people actually hiding in the trees to film it. The training is bad and stupid (no, I don't condone his methods), IMO, but this guy was set up maybe by another competitor? Or just someone who is anti SchH, anti dog training, an AR nut, who knows. It was done to elicit a reaction from people and, from reading the comments in this thread and on FB, it has succeeded.


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## vom Eisenherz

Yep, Mrs. K. Dogs suffer all the time in the name of human ego. 

I know lots of dogs who would/could take that abuse. Not really that big of a deal. It doesn't mean they _should have to_ take it. It's all the dog knows. To him, that's a normal day of training.


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## Sunflowers

PupperLove said:


> why is he picking up the dog by the EARS?!!


That made me want to do the same to him.


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## Mrs.K

vom Eisenherz said:


> Yep, Mrs. K. Dogs suffer all the time in the name of human ego.
> 
> I know lots of dogs who would/could take that abuse. Not really that big of a deal. It doesn't mean they _should have to_ take it. It's all the dog knows. To him, that's a normal day of training.


Agreed. We all know that IPO sport doesn't really work without correction. At some point you have to correct, but this was just senseless. If I am that angry with myself or the dog, I put the dog away and cool off. 


@Wildo: Breeders, SV Officials. Handlers/Trainers with Seminars, training equipment... there is a lot of money in German Shepherds. 

There is a guy named Jantie who discovered a lot of shady stuff. I believe he's also on pedigree database. It's nothing new, it's an open secret. However, the SV wants him out of the club because he's becoming too much of "problem" for corrupt officials.


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## Gharrissc

I guess I'm naive because I thought people attended these sports with their dogs for the love the sport and their dogs. Didn't know there were dog sport people out there who have the 'crazy soccer parent' mentality.




vom Eisenherz said:


> This is yet another reason why points based training that brings out egos isn't in the best interest of the dog. The old pass/fail system, imo, was a better test and fairer to the dog in many aspects.


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## onyx'girl

Gharrissc said:


> I guess I'm naive because I thought people attended these sports with their dogs for the love the sport and their dogs. Didn't know there were dog sport people out there who have the 'crazy soccer parent' mentality.


I don't think you are naive....majority of the people who train in the sport are doing it for the love of their dogs and sport. There are radicals everywhere, and they always make a bad name for whatever they affiliate with.


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## Zahnburg

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. This takes place in Luxemburg, which is a EU nation. To the best of my knowledge the use of e-collars and pinch collars is banned within the EU. Is it possible that this handler, being a law-abiding EU citizen, was forced to resort to such methods being that more humane and effective tools are illegal?


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## Mrs.K

Zahnburg said:


> Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. This takes place in Luxemburg, which is a EU nation. To the best of my knowledge the use of e-collars and pinch collars is banned within the EU. Is it possible that this handler, being a law-abiding EU citizen, was forced to resort to such methods being that more humane and effective tools are illegal?


It's not in all of Europe. In Germany E-Collars (well you can buy and own them, you are just not allowed to use them on the dog) are banned but pinch collars are still legal, however there are people working on banning them too :help:

I am not quite sure if both is illegal in Luxemburg.


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## Vandal

Well, I know one thing. It is not illegal to edit videos in Europe. 

No one has noticed the rather blatant editting in this video? The yelping sound is added where the editor wants things to look the worst. Right in the beginning, sound is added and then the video repeats the one time movements from this man, four times. That same piece of video is shown again later in the video without sound. 

The video is silent until select times where there is sound inserted. That yelping sound is always the same and it is way too loud to be heard that clearly, from the distance the video is filmed from.

No court of law would ever accept something like this as evidence. It is quite clearly tampered with. The reactions of the dog does not fit either. 


Once I see something like the blatant editting present here, I am MUCH less willing to join the lynch mob. Clearly, whoever was filming and editting his work, did not like this person.


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## Mrs.K

Well, he is being investigated for cruelty in Luxemburg and he did get disqualified afterall. Just because this was edited, doesn't excuse what he's done to that dog, or why in the **** would you pull and drag a dog on his ears over the field? What's the point? Give me one good reason what the dog learned from that. It may be edited but whats in there speaks volumes and for itself. Apparently it was enough for the FCI to kick him out of the trial. 

Since he is investigated one would "assume" (I know I know) there is more going on than just that video and I wouldn't be surprised if this is not the last thing we get to see/hear.


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## Jag

Mrs.K said:


> Well, he is being investigated for cruelty in Luxemburg and he did get disqualified afterall. Just because this was edited, doesn't excuse what he's done to that dog, or why in the **** would you pull and drag a dog on his ears over the field? What's the point? Give me one good reason what the dog learned from that. It may be edited but whats in there speaks volumes and for itself. Apparently it was enough for the FCI to kick him out of the trial.
> 
> Since he is investigated one would "assume" (I know I know) there is more going on than just that video and I wouldn't be surprised if this is not the last thing we get to see/hear.


:thumbup:

Edited, not edited... doesn't matter. There's abuse going on any way you slice it. THAT can't be edited.


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## Vandal

> why in the **** would you pull and drag a dog on his ears over the field? What's the point? Give me one good reason what the dog learned from that.


I have no intention of getting into that kind of conversation. That was not my point.
The sound was put in there and things were changed and repeated to make it look worse. If it was bad enough for whoever filmed this to turn him in, they should have left it alone and let people judge based on the truth, not using tricks designed to disturb, upset and enrage the people viewing. 

Without the edits, it looks bad...I agree ....but with them, he becomes a monster....that's just not right. Not in my opinion. People should be judged based on what actually took place. The truth matters to me and for me, the deception in that video is wrong.

I might totally disagree with how he trains dogs and probably would not like this man. Still, not the point I was making.


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## sabledog

This has nothing to do with a "dark side" of IPO. This is just an abusive ******* to happens to train in IPO. This could have been any sport.


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## Castlemaid

sabledog said:


> This has nothing to do with a "dark side" of IPO. This is just an abusive ******* to happens to train in IPO. This could have been any sport.


Exaclty!


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## Blanketback

That's a very weird video. The editing is awful, and the strangest thing about it is that the sound isn't a real dog. I know this because for the past 8 months I can't watch a single thing with dog sounds in it without having my puppy bark. I played it 4 times in the past few days, and every time, not a peep out of him.

So then I got curious, and I googled Patrick Keil IPO, in discussions listing, and opened a few of the German pages, with the pages translated for me. Most of the talk is going on about how inhumane it is, but one person said that he got kicked out not because of the way he trains, but because of something else - some arguement? I had a hard time understanding because the computer is a poor translator, but something seems fishy to me. I think there's a good story behind this video, but we'll probably never get to hear it.


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## Mrs.K

Blanketback said:


> That's a very weird video. The editing is awful, and the strangest thing about it is that the sound isn't a real dog. I know this because for the past 8 months I can't watch a single thing with dog sounds in it without having my puppy bark. I played it 4 times in the past few days, and every time, not a peep out of him.
> 
> So then I got curious, and I googled Patrick Keil IPO, in discussions listing, and opened a few of the German pages, with the pages translated for me. Most of the talk is going on about how inhumane it is, but one person said that he got kicked out not because of the way he trains, but because of something else - some arguement? I had a hard time understanding because the computer is a poor translator, but something seems fishy to me. I think there's a good story behind this video, but we'll probably never get to hear it.


I'll follow and post about it. If there is something, it'll be talked about on the German Forum.

From what I read, he got banned from his club in Juli 2012 because of his trainins methods. They did try to talk to him but he wouldn't change them and so they banned him because of his methods AND arguments. 





> Stellungnahme zu der Affäre Keil Patrick
> "Da wir diese Trainingsmethoden auch nicht dulden
> und nach mehrmaliger Aussprache mit dem Hundeführer haben
> wir daraus unsere Konsequenzen gezogen. Seit Juli 2012 ist
> Herr Keil Patrick wegen seinen Trainingsmethoden und diversen
> Meinungsverschiedenheiten nicht mehr in unserem Verein."
> http://www.acpge.lu/


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## Blanketback

Please do, I would appreciate it. I'm a very skeptical person and something isn't sitting right with me about this. Even the poor quality - it's hard to see exactly what's going on. There's one point where you can see him whip the back of his ankle, which I guess is telling the dog the position he wants him in, and I guess the swoosh of the tiny whip helps to indicate? IDK, since this sport is way out of my league and this type of training as well. Someone said it, either in this thread or in one that I googled, that he didn't invent this type of training either.


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## kiya

Shade said:


> He needs that whip shoved where the sun don't shine  That poor dog


With 9" nails on the end.


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## Liesje

ShenzisMom said:


> I have no problem issuing a correction...but if I had to chase my dog down like that to get results *I would put the dog away and think. 'How did I screw up so badly that had to happen'. *



This x10000000!!!!! 

I didn't watch the entire video and don't have sound at work so I can't comment on the video specifically but I've seen some training like this (and thankfully it always seems to be with dogs that will just take it and take it and take it....) and besides the obvious excessive force the two things that stand out are 1) the handler is getting angry and frustrated so the corrections no longer make any sense. The timing is bad, the corrections are excessive both in repetition and force, and you can tell that the handler is just plain angry; and 2) absolutely nothing gets accomplished other than the handler getting pissed and the dog getting even more loaded and now in a place of conflict where other problems happen because all that pressure has to get released somewhere....


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## ponyfarm

Just because the dog takes it and comes back doesn't mean they should have to!

You can kick a dog and it will come right back to you tail wagging.Does that mean he liked it? People pull stupid stunts like this training horses all the time, and the poor horse will keep on trying its heart out. Does not mean the animal is ok with the treatment! Some things will never change..humans can be so cruel!


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## Fast

Zahnburg said:


> Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. This takes place in Luxemburg, which is a EU nation. To the best of my knowledge the use of e-collars and pinch collars is banned within the EU. Is it possible that this handler, being a law-abiding EU citizen, was forced to resort to such methods being that more humane and effective tools are illegal?


Hmmmmm... Very interesting and provocative!

There does seem to be a sort of race between two groups, One is using legislation. And the other is finding new way to circumvent the new laws. Most not as stupid and brutal as that video seeks to make the handler appear.

I'll be thinking a lot about this. Thanks.


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## Mrs.K

There is no ban of the Pinch Collar throughout the EU. There are countries where both is banned but the EU did not ban the pinch collar throughout the EU. It is still very much legal in Germany.

As for the E-collar. It's legal to sell, buy and keep it but it is illegal to use it.

As for Luxembour, I don't know but I can find out.


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## harmony

I only watched half of it to know, but that does not look good.


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## GSDElsa

This guy is clearly a *****. I'm not against whacking a dog with a riding crop or something if you are using it to position and they are being turds (like how you'd use it to pop a horse). I think zahnburg is probably right that with many training devices banned you probably need to get creative for training aides. But this guy --Yikes--to chase your dog around a blind hitting it. And obviously the dog has been whacked one two many times in the wrong place since he's flinching. Clearly he takes a "tool" that can be used for training and misuses it....but I don't think it's any worse or better than someone who misuses any other tool.

But the video itself pisses me off too...and I'm not talking about the handler! If you've got an agenda to out someone, or are just a good citizen trying to expose someone for mistreatment of animals...DO NOT EDIT IT! Let the video speak for itself. CLEARLY this video has been tampered with. That is beyond obvious. There is literally no sound on the video EXCEPT the dog yelping...which sounds as if the dog was in a room with you, not halfway across a training field. Re-playing parts to make it seem like there was more incidents than there really was. Dirty pool....


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## Fast

GSDElsa said:


> This guy is clearly a *****. I'm not against whacking a dog with a riding crop or something if you are using it to position and they are being turds (like how you'd use it to pop a horse).


So it is OK to hit the dog, but only in the context that *you* find is acceptable? 

Abuse is like pornography, no one can define it but everyone knows it when they see it. Everyone has their own lines that they will or won't cross. So unless we plan on banning hitting dogs with anything at anytime we will always have cases like this one.


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## gowen

I'm shocked by the "Lynch Mob" mentality around here. I watched the video without sound not even thinking about it and it looked like a normal IPO training video. The guy seemed a little heavy handed, but this video is cheap dirt and full of edits. 

Also people, get real, if you picked up your 80lb dog by the thin ear it would be horribly deformed. I see in the video what you are talking about, but I'm having huge doubts about if he truly grabbed the ear. Also! Look at the reactions of the faces around! No look for horror, no look of disgust, people look NORMAL. Look at the reactions of the dog, normal. I was watching the other IPO competition video and the whip they use looks like they are also whipping the **** out of the dog.

You want to talk about abuse? Ask our North Carolina Highway Patron how they train their dogs.


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## gowen

I just watched this video of him in competition and this doesn't look like an abused relationship between the owner/dog but sure looks like the dog is being whipped as it latches on the arm. I'm sure I could doctor up that video and make an abuse case out of it.

Keil Patrick (LU) with Ombo de la Tani'ere D'or on Vimeo


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## selzer

gowen said:


> I'm shocked by the "Lynch Mob" mentality around here. I watched the video without sound not even thinking about it and it looked like a normal IPO training video. The guy seemed a little heavy handed, but this video is cheap dirt and full of edits.
> 
> Also people, get real, if you picked up your 80lb dog by the thin ear it would be horribly deformed. I see in the video what you are talking about, but I'm having huge doubts about if he truly grabbed the ear. Also! Look at the reactions of the faces around! No look for horror, no look of disgust, people look NORMAL. Look at the reactions of the dog, normal. I was watching the other IPO competition video and the whip they use looks like they are also whipping the **** out of the dog.
> 
> You want to talk about abuse? Ask our North Carolina Highway Patron how they train their dogs. NC Trooper Sgt. Charles Jones Abuses K-9 Partner - YouTube



Just because their are worse cases of abuse out there does not mean what this guy did was ok. If that is how people train their dogs, I don't want them near me. What I think was happening was the dog engaged on the sleeve and then left off and the trainer wanted the dog to keep going so he was trying to incite the dog to a higher level of aggression. 

First off, I know nothing about training the protection phase of schutzhund. I always thought that when the dogs are puppies, you play with them with the flirt pole and with a tug, a ball, and a puppy sleeve and encourage their drives, and you do not discourage the biting stuff. Then you make a good game of it, encouraging the dog while increasing the intensity of the helper's part. Tugging with some wrestling. Full body workout. 

The idea of the handler whipping a dog to get it to continue to attack never crossed my mind.


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## Zahnburg

selzer said:


> Just because their are worse cases of abuse out there does not mean what this guy did was ok. If that is how people train their dogs, I don't want them near me. What I think was happening was the dog engaged on the sleeve and then left off and the trainer wanted the dog to keep going so he was trying to incite the dog to a higher level of aggression.
> 
> First off, I know nothing about training the protection phase of schutzhund. I always thought that when the dogs are puppies, you play with them with the flirt pole and with a tug, a ball, and a puppy sleeve and encourage their drives, and you do not discourage the biting stuff. Then you make a good game of it, encouraging the dog while increasing the intensity of the helper's part. Tugging with some wrestling. Full body workout.
> 
> The idea of the handler whipping a dog to get it to continue to attack never crossed my mind.


Before the nose of IPO is bloodied further by people speculating wildly about things they know nothing about, I will simply say that your conclusion of why the handler is doing this is so far off base that it is baffling how you arrived at it.


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## selzer

Ok, so why exactly did the guy come in hitting the dog as soon as the dog stopped biting the sleeve?


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## gowen

selzer said:


> Ok, so why exactly did the guy come in hitting the dog as soon as the dog stopped biting the sleeve?


I'm not going to speculate on something I haven't a clue about, though I'm going to say that I can't find fault in the trainer based on the quality and editing of that video. I am more on the side of it wasn't a big deal as nobody in the video seems to show any sort of disgust or reaction to the aledged abuse.

I would never use those tactics on my girl, but I am not ready to lynch the guy either.


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## GSDElsa

Fast said:


> So it is OK to hit the dog, but only in the context that *you* find is acceptable?
> .


Yep, that's correct. Just like any "tool" it can be abused and misused. I think this guy is clearly misusing his tool. I'd feel the same way if it was a prong or e-collar or any other device or part of the body being used for a correction.


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## Zahnburg

selzer said:


> Ok, so why exactly did the guy come in hitting the dog as soon as the dog stopped biting the sleeve?


I think his intentions are pretty obvious. If you do not understand what is happening perhaps it is best that you refrain from making statements about what you do not understand.


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## Mrs.K

gowen said:


> I'm not going to speculate on something I haven't a clue about, though I'm going to say that I can't find fault in the trainer based on the quality and editing of that video. I am more on the side of it wasn't a big deal as nobody in the video seems to show any sort of disgust or reaction to the aledged abuse.
> 
> I would never use those tactics on my girl, but I am not ready to lynch the guy either.


I have to disagree with you on that. 

He was kicked out of his club because of his practices back in Summer, before this video went viral.


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## gowen

Mrs.K said:


> I have to disagree with you on that.
> 
> He was kicked out of his club because of his practices back in Summer, before this video went viral.


They kicked him out solely based on *THAT* doctored up video which has a lot of holes in it. 

I'm not saying he doesn't abuse his dog, I do not know. He is very heavy handed with his dog and I would not let him near my dog. 

I will NOT pass judgement based on that video alone. I fully disagree with the dismissing of him based on the "youtube" video. They should have launched an investigation and/or charged him with animal abuse and let the courts decide if what he does is abuse.

I think this guy was set up by a competitor to have him dismissed. Judging the video I posted a few up of him in competition, he does not look like an amateur nor did he run up and beat his dog during competition, nor did the dog appear to fear him at all. In fact he rubbed his dog to show his appreciation for a well done job. The accusation that this guy picked up his dog by the ears is unfounded and foolish. Take a close look at your dogs ears and tell me if they can sustain that kind of abuse and keep their perfect form. 

My point of posting up the NCHP video of the officer hanging the dog (by the neck) and kicking the crap out of it, was to say that, what the officer did was NOT abuse, it was part of the training book. That officer got his job back FYI /w back pay and all attorney fees paid. North Carolina Highway Patrol K-9 incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> On November 22, 2010, a superior court judge ruled that Jones was improperly dismissed, and that Jones should receive back salary and attorney fees. The judge ruled that although Jones' actions were not among the training techniques specifically approved by the Highway Patrol, "*they were no worse than the agency's accepted methods*."


Your cries for lynching the *jerk* are misguided and unfounded. You should be looking at your own police force.


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## Mrs.K

gowen said:


> They kicked him out solely based on *THAT* doctored up video which has a lot of holes in it.
> 
> Your cries for lynching the *jerk* are misguided and unfounded. You should be looking at your own police force.


urm... NO they kicked him out BEFORE the video went viral and remember, the club got to see the whole picture of his training practices. They tried talk to him which was fruitless, gave him numerous chances and when it wouldn't get any better they kicked him out.

And by the way, I am looking at my own police force, even opened a topic about their training practices because I got to watch them right across the field, seeing with my own eyes how they worked them. 
I wouldn't sell them a dog if my life depended on it.


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## gowen

Mrs.K said:


> urm... NO they kicked him out BEFORE the video went viral and remember, the club got to see the whole picture of his training practices. They tried talk to him which was fruitless, gave him numerous chances and when it wouldn't get any better they kicked him out.


If that is the case then I apologize for arguing about it and fully agree with you. I was basing my stance on the single facebook post by the IPO stating


> I officially inform that Mr. Patrick Keil of the competitor is excluded to participate the fCI IPO 2012 *based on the animal abuse revealed on youtube.*
> 
> The FCI strongly and strictly condemns the act of any kind of this behaviour."[/U][/B]


If this is not the case, then I apologize.



Mrs.K said:


> And by the way, I am looking at my own police force, even opened a topic about their training practices because I got to watch them right across the field, seeing with my own eyes how they worked them.
> I wouldn't sell them a dog if my life depended on it.


I appreciate that. I wasn't directing that at you, just the whole mentality of people rushing to praise their local K9 enforcement and all the while calling on this trainer to have his face removed and a whip shoved up is - you know what.


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## Liesje

He got kicked out of the competition b/c of the video but Sandra is saying he was already kicked out of his club.


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## Mrs.K

Gowen, there is much more to it than just the video. 

You don't get kicked out of your own club for (let's say) normal training practices. And if the sources are right, he was already under investigation for abuse and cruelty before he entered the competition. 

However, he did get kicked out of the competition because of the video. Once that was out, going viral, they had no choice but to kick him out of the competition. 

The same thing happened to a couple of professional, high profile jumping riders. They "barred" their horses (hitting the front legs so they lift them higher). A lot of people did it but if you get caught and it's put on the internet, you are out and get disqualified. It's the nature of the beast.


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## selzer

Zahnburg said:


> I think his intentions are pretty obvious. If you do not understand what is happening perhaps it is best that you refrain from making statements about what you do not understand.


I said in my original post that I do not know anything about protection training. So I am not trying to make like I do. I am not sure if the same is true of you because you make like you do, but then refuse to answer a simple question. 

Anyone can have an opinion about training, whether they know how something is trained or not if it seems like it is abusive and ineffective. 

I suppose since I have never tried to train a dog to stay out of the trash, I have no business feeling horrified about the woman who told me she taught her dog to stay out of the trash by duct-taping rotted meat to the dog's muzzle for three days. I shouldn't comment or have an opinion about that. 

Abusive training is not limited to any particular sport of venue and you do not have to be a disciple of it to have an opinion. 

l can only guess that you have witnessed or used this sort of thing or worse in the course of whatever training you do, as you say you know why they are doing what they are doing, and do not seem to be disgusted by it, rather you are defending them, or just attacking me. Whatever. Others in the sport and related sports seem to feel different thankfully.


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## Mrs.K

> l can only guess that you have witnessed or used this sort of thing or worse in the course of whatever training you do, as you say you know why they are doing what they are doing, and do not seem to be disgusted by it, rather you are defending them, or just attacking me. Whatever. Others in the sport and related sports seem to feel different thankfully.


As sad as it is to say it. There is far worse training methods out there. This is just the tip of the iceberg and almost "harmless". 
However, the pressure gets bigger and bigger and you can't get caught doing stuff like that anymore. 20 years ago, it wouldn't have been a big of a deal as it is now.


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## Vandal

Based on what she said earlier in this thread, I believe Mrs K is relaying information she read on another board. In so doing, she is simply repeating what she read but has no real knowledge of what really happened with this man and his club. Might be be the case but could be wildly different than reported. I have been around dog trainers and clubs enough to know about the politics and vendettas that can take place. That's not to mention the people who report what they have heard with a great deal of glee, even though it doesn't have a heck of a lot to do with reality. 

The fact that some people posting here want to look right past the editing, I find somewhat telling. Is the guy a good dog trainer? hmm...maybe not.. but convicting someone on a dog board based on a VERY edited video, tells me something about the people doing that. 

Everyone has their agendas and while I think this is certainly not a really good example of dog training, the fact remains that the reactions of the people, and the dog, and the sound, just don't match. Once those facts became obvious, I personally could not go a step further in condemning this man. I have been on juries with people who wanted to convict someone based on their prejudices, what they heard someone say in the elevator, because the police are never wrong, and so on. It is frightening to me what people think is acceptable "proof".


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## Kayos and Havoc

qbchottu said:


> Very sad...
> I have seen/heard of trainers in this country (even my area) that do things like this. Perhaps even worse. In fact, I am sure Keil is responsible for much worse in the privacy of his home and kennel.
> 
> Something I was wondering about...in your opinions, what is the line between abuse and compulsion training?
> 
> I remember once I was at a schh club and a member was doing his obedience routine with his tough (and I mean VERY hard and intense) working dog. He was using an ecollar to zap the dog into a focused heel. There was a lady attending that was new to schh and she was simply horrified by this type of training. She actually had to turn away because the corrections were too much for her. It's interesting that what is over the line for one person is just a normal training day for another.


This is one reason why I opted out of SchH. Too harsh for me. ANd the language was abusive too. I am no namby pamby and have a mouth like a sailor, but even I was offended at SchH. That is not a reflection of the sport but of the club. 

I was not able to watch the video as I am at work. Maybe a good thing.


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## Zahnburg

selzer said:


> I said in my original post that I do not know anything about protection training. So I am not trying to make like I do. I am not sure if the same is true of you because you make like you do, but then refuse to answer a simple question.
> 
> Anyone can have an opinion about training, whether they know how something is trained or not if it seems like it is abusive and ineffective.
> 
> I suppose since I have never tried to train a dog to stay out of the trash, I have no business feeling horrified about the woman who told me she taught her dog to stay out of the trash by duct-taping rotted meat to the dog's muzzle for three days. I shouldn't comment or have an opinion about that.
> 
> Abusive training is not limited to any particular sport of venue and you do not have to be a disciple of it to have an opinion.
> 
> l can only guess that you have witnessed or used this sort of thing or worse in the course of whatever training you do, as you say you know why they are doing what they are doing, and do not seem to be disgusted by it, rather you are defending them, or just attacking me. Whatever. Others in the sport and related sports seem to feel different thankfully.


Firstly, I am not condoning nor defending this handler nor his methods. And you are more than welcomed to your opinions on his training.

HOWEVER, what I do have a problem with are ill-informed, inaccurate statements that are made, seemingly, to cast the entire sport of IPO in a negative light. In this instance you suggesting that this was done to encourage the dog to engage the helper. What happens when these sorts of ill-informed statements are made is that they are read by other ill-informed people. And the next thing you know people are saying that dogs are beaten to make them bite and IPO is cruel and should be banned.


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## Olivers mama

Vandal said:


> Based on what she said earlier in this thread, I believe Mrs K is relaying information she read on another board. In so doing, she is simply repeating what she read but has no real knowledge of what really happened with this man and his club. Might be be the case but could be wildly different than reported. I have been around dog trainers and clubs enough to know about the politics and vendettas that can take place. That's not to mention the people who report what they have heard with a great deal of glee, even though it doesn't have a heck of a lot to do with reality.
> 
> The fact that some people posting here want to look right past the editing, I find somewhat telling. Is the guy a good dog trainer? hmm...maybe not.. but convicting someone on a dog board based on a VERY edited video, tells me something about the people doing that.
> 
> Everyone has their agendas and while I think this is certainly not a really good example of dog training, the fact remains that the reactions of the people, and the dog, and the sound, just don't match. Once those facts became obvious, I personally could not go a step further in condemning this man. I have been on juries with people who wanted to convict someone based on their prejudices, what they heard someone say in the elevator, because the police are never wrong, and so on. It is frightening to me what people think is acceptable "proof".


:thumbup: Thank You - Thank You - Thank You!

I just read the whole thread. Ignored it initially for a few reasons, not the least of which, an idiot like me had no idea what 'IPO' was & didn't want to look it up. (not a fan of acronyms) After looking it up, came back to watch the video & read.

I've been to a few Sch displays & learned quickly that it is not a sport for everyone. I'm very interested in the sport, just don't have the dog for it @ this time. I've also been around many trainers. I've seen harsh training before that had nothing to do with the sport. But I agree 1000% that an obviously, poorly edited YouTube video should have no place in the ruling of a sanctioning body - for anything.

Done perhaps by a competitor? Quite likely, actually. There are cheaters in all the dog sports. (Years ago, the winningest Irish Setter in AKC conformation was being fed arsenic to get long, beautiful feathering. By the breeder/handler. And everyone knew it. The dog died at the age of 2. Deadly cheaters.) Should the video be taken seriously? Shouldn't. Isn't - by me at least. 

BTW - I find it funny that, in Europe, one can legally buy / own a certain collar type - but you can't use it. So what's the point - wall decoration? :crazy:


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