# Need advice



## Richie

Hi everyone, I have a bit of a sad story. I have a 3 year, 4 month old GSD. We got him at 8 weeks old and he has never been without me, I'm retired and stay home every day. I have treated Tian (my GSD'S name) like a son. He was aggressive at 8 weeks old, would bite all the time. We thought over time he would get over that, no so. If he was a human he would already have had a heart attack or nervous breakdown. He stays in the "alert" mode every time we leave the house. If he sees another dog walking on a leash he goes crazy. I started using a pinch collar about a year and a half ago and that has helped. I could eat out of his food dish if I chose to, nothing bothers him in that respect. We play all the time, catch, Frisbee and 4 walks a day. He doesn't like people, and I mean anybody. We socialized him at PetSmart numerous times to no avail. 
He has chewed about everything in the house, so we decided to let that run its course and just replace everything afterward. 
Here is my problem, and a serious one. I came home the other day saw the carpet in a pile after he chewed it. He was standing next to me so I reached down and slid my hand thru his collar, like I have done many times before, to scold him. I have never hit him and never will. I scold him with words and he understands what I say. He is the most intelligent dog I have ever had. At that moment all **** broke loose, he lifted his lip, growled and attacked me like I've never seen before. Seemed like a mili-second and I was bleeding all over the place. He bit my upper arm and punctured it top and bottom. I was trying my best to pull his head off my arm and he got me two more times before I held his head away from me. My wife came out of the bedroom screaming. I held my dog down on the floor by the back of his collar for about 30 to 40 seconds. I started to release him a little at a time. He did not growl or make any aggressive moves from that point on. I let him go and he went into the kitchen. My wife doctored me up and I cleaned the blood from the carpet. I don't think I can trust him ever again. I will say that since that time, he is a different dog, and I mean that in a good way. He minds better and has a different attitude about everything. It was a week ago today that this happened. 5-12-19. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Richie.


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## dogbyte

Complete vet work up. Blood work to test thyroid..check for any pain..if not get a great and experienced trainer. Rage syndrome is not at all common but not unheard of. I know personally of one Rescue GSD that was put down with it. Determined by VERY experienced working dog people. But pain or things like brain tumors can cause drastic changes in dogs. Go to Leerbug.com and read about what a dominant dog vs an aggressive dog is. And about a dominant dog collar. Prayers for you and the dog as I can only imagine how you feel.


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## Sabis mom

Richie said:


> Hi everyone, I have a bit of a sad story. I have a 3 year, 4 month old GSD. We got him at 8 weeks old and he has never been without me, I'm retired and stay home every day. I have treated Tian (my GSD'S name) like a son. He was aggressive at 8 weeks old, would bite all the time. We thought over time he would get over that, no so. If he was a human he would already have had a heart attack or nervous breakdown. He stays in the "alert" mode every time we leave the house. If he sees another dog walking on a leash he goes crazy. I started using a pinch collar about a year and a half ago and that has helped. I could eat out of his food dish if I chose to, nothing bothers him in that respect. We play all the time, catch, Frisbee and 4 walks a day. He doesn't like people, and I mean anybody. We socialized him at PetSmart numerous times to no avail.
> He has chewed about everything in the house, so we decided to let that run its course and just replace everything afterward.
> Here is my problem, and a serious one. I came home the other day saw the carpet in a pile after he chewed it. He was standing next to me so I reached down and slid my hand thru his collar, like I have done many times before, to scold him. I have never hit him and never will. I scold him with words and he understands what I say. He is the most intelligent dog I have ever had. At that moment all **** broke loose, he lifted his lip, growled and attacked me like I've never seen before. Seemed like a mili-second and I was bleeding all over the place. He bit my upper arm and punctured it top and bottom. I was trying my best to pull his head off my arm and he got me two more times before I held his head away from me. My wife came out of the bedroom screaming. I held my dog down on the floor by the back of his collar for about 30 to 40 seconds. I started to release him a little at a time. He did not growl or make any aggressive moves from that point on. I let him go and he went into the kitchen. My wife doctored me up and I cleaned the blood from the carpet. I don't think I can trust him ever again. I will say that since that time, he is a different dog, and I mean that in a good way. He minds better and has a different attitude about everything. It was a week ago today that this happened. 5-12-19. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Richie.


Post your location and some of the members here should be able to recommend a trainer. Not a petsmart or your local force free trainer, but an actual trainer who knows how to deal with this. @Jax08, lol, usually knows where to find one. 
In the meantime I second the vet exam, full work up. Rule out any medical. But the fact that he is being good now speaks volumes.


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## Richie

Sabis mom said:


> Post your location and some of the members here should be able to recommend a trainer. Not a petsmart or your local force free trainer, but an actual trainer who knows how to deal with this. lol, usually knows where to find one.
> In the meantime I second the vet exam, full work up. Rule out any medical. But the fact that he is being good now speaks volumes.


 Sabis mom, thank you for your response. Tian had his complete annual checkup last month, all was normal. Since that happened he has been the perfect buddy that is was previously. I've never been around any dog that stares right thru you with the most intense stare like he does, it's incredible. Live just outside Atl. GA Thanks again. Richie


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## Richie

dogbyte said:


> Complete vet work up. Blood work to test thyroid..check for any pain..if not get a great and experienced trainer. Rage syndrome is not at all common but not unheard of. I know personally of one Rescue GSD that was put down with it. Determined by VERY experienced working dog people. But pain or things like brain tumors can cause drastic changes in dogs. Go to Leerbug.com and read about what a dominant dog vs an aggressive dog is. And about a dominant dog collar. Prayers for you and the dog as I can only imagine how you feel.


 Thank you dogbyte, as I mentioned to Sabis mom, my dog had is annual checkup last month and all was OK. Not sure how in depth the checkup was but Tian has been his normal self since. Nobody can approach him, he won't let anyone outside the family near him or us. I will go to Leebug.com. Thanks again. Richie


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## tim_s_adams

You have a 3 1/2 yr old dog that has no respect for you! So my advice would be to hire a good, balanced trainer with GSD-specific experience to help you!

From your description of events I'd say this outcome was pretty predictable. Here's why I say that: I have never grabbed my dog's collar to correct or control her ever! I have never held any dog down by their neck, or physically put them on their back ever, nor would I! The fact that you have, and do, speaks volumes about your relationship with your dog. 

Chewing up your furniture, barking and being out of control around people or dogs, and being allowed to do so since he was 8 weeks old?! Did you think he'd somehow grow out of that without guidance? Lots of puppies act this way, and they require firm and consistent guidance to learn that this kind of behavior is not acceptable! But physically grabbing and/or holding your dog on his back as a means of communication is also not needed, nor is it productive! You set yourself and your dog, however well intentioned, up for the ultimate confrontation you experienced.

If you want to move forward in a productive way with this dog, hire a good trainer to help you both communicate with each other in a more productive way.


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## Jax08

Yeah.... You are fortunate that your dog hasn't had an obstruction. So if you can post your location, maybe someone can help you with a trainer. But be prepared for his entire life to change, starting with crating. Strict rules, no more Doggie Daddy. Strict obedience. Strict rules. Crated when left alone. He doesn't have to like people or other dogs. He does have to respect their right to breathe. 

On a side note, 8 week old puppies are not "aggressive". This breed is called landsharks for a reason. It's our responsibility to teach them what they can and can not bite - many MANY threads on this forum on that. And it's our responsibility to teach them that eating our homes is not acceptable. If this is done at a young age then the situation never evolves into a bite to the owner.

So do the medical work up if you feel necessary but I'm on the find a good trainer bandwagon. The fact that you were able to pull his head off of your arm, regardless of the severity of the first bite which sounds like a full bite, tells me he wasn't trying to kill you.


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## Twyla

Richie, I sent via private msge the name and phone # of the trainer I used with Woolf. She is in the Gwinnett area and depending on your location in GA, well worth the drive.

Completely agree with with previous posts. Medical exam. Crate training. Muzzle conditioning. High level of OB.

Whichever trainer you do decide to go with; verify their experience. Unfortunately, we have a huge number of less then knowledgeable 'trainers' in GA. You want a balanced trainer, not positive only.


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## Richie

tim_s_adams said:


> You have a 3 1/2 yr old dog that has no respect for you! So my advice would be to hire a good, balanced trainer with GSD-specific experience to help you!
> 
> From your description of events I'd say this outcome was pretty predictable. Here's why I say that: I have never grabbed my dog's collar to correct or control her ever! I have never held any dog down by their neck, or physically put them on their back ever, nor would I! The fact that you have, and do, speaks volumes about your relationship with your dog.
> 
> Chewing up your furniture, barking and being out of control around people or dogs, and being allowed to do so since he was 8 weeks old?! Did you think he'd somehow grow out of that without guidance? Lots of puppies act this way, and they require firm and consistent guidance to learn that this kind of behavior is not acceptable! But physically grabbing and/or holding your dog on his back as a means of communication is also not needed, nor is it productive! You set yourself and your dog, however well intentioned, up for the ultimate confrontation you experienced.
> 
> If you want to move forward in a productive way with this dog, hire a good trainer to help you both communicate with each other in a more productive way.


Hi Tim, I appreciate your comment. First lets get something straight, you said ""But physically grabbing and/or holding your dog on his back as a means of communication is also not needed, nor is it productive!"" Where did you get that from?? I have NEVER done that to my dog, PERIOD.
I was defending myself from further violence and being bitten more, that is the first time I ever did that!! When I put my hand under my dog's collar every day and talk to him I scratch his neck where the collar rides, and he loves it. I am the most gentle person a dog could ever have. I lay down on the floor with my dog every day and we talk, he follows me everywhere I go. We have what I call " quiet time" I take him in the bedroom and I just flop on the bed and he jumps up next to and we just lay there together for 15 minutes, we do this every morning. I have NEVER mistreated my dog, I treat him like a human. Many times during the day he will come to me and stand there until I put my forehead down against his forehead just rub our heads together. 
As far as your other comments about getting a trainer I agree with. Richie


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## Richie

Jax08 said:


> Yeah.... You are fortunate that your dog hasn't had an obstruction. So if you can post your location, maybe someone can help you with a trainer. But be prepared for his entire life to change, starting with crating. Strict rules, no more Doggie Daddy. Strict obedience. Strict rules. Crated when left alone. He doesn't have to like people or other dogs. He does have to respect their right to breathe.
> 
> On a side note, 8 week old puppies are not "aggressive". This breed is called landsharks for a reason. It's our responsibility to teach them what they can and can not bite - many MANY threads on this forum on that. And it's our responsibility to teach them that eating our homes is not acceptable. If this is done at a young age then the situation never evolves into a bite to the owner.
> 
> So do the medical work up if you feel necessary but I'm on the find a good trainer bandwagon. The fact that you were able to pull his head off of your arm, regardless of the severity of the first bite which sounds like a full bite, tells me he wasn't trying to kill you.


 Thanks Jax08, I appreciate your helpful comments. Richie.


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## Sabis mom

Richie said:


> Sabis mom, thank you for your response. Tian had his complete annual checkup last month, all was normal. Since that happened he has been the perfect buddy that is was previously. I've never been around any dog that stares right thru you with the most intense stare like he does, it's incredible. Live just outside Atl. GA Thanks again. Richie



My Bud had that intense stare. I used to caution people to watch his eyes, because when they went really still someone was about to get bit. 
He was a big, powerful, bull headed beast that responded best to rigid structure, strict obedience and clear rules. We rubbed along just fine for 13 years once I figured all that out. He did not like people in general and as was mentioned he didn't need to, but he absolutely needed to respect their right to live.
My guess is that your guy will come around although you are likely to experience some initial push back. I would definitely start with a muzzle if you haven't already. Crate training needs to happen and I get the sense you are very non confrontational with him, best get over that right about now. No need to pick fights but there is little chance of success here if he thinks he can push you around. 
Would love to see some pictures if you can.


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## Richie

Sabis mom said:


> My Bud had that intense stare. I used to caution people to watch his eyes, because when they went really still someone was about to get bit.
> He was a big, powerful, bull headed beast that responded best to rigid structure, strict obedience and clear rules. We rubbed along just fine for 13 years once I figured all that out. He did not like people in general and as was mentioned he didn't need to, but he absolutely needed to respect their right to live.
> My guess is that your guy will come around although you are likely to experience some initial push back. I would definitely start with a muzzle if you haven't already. Crate training needs to happen and I get the sense you are very non confrontational with him, best get over that right about now. No need to pick fights but there is little chance of success here if he thinks he can push you around.
> Would love to see some pictures if you can.


Thank you for that great and helpful response Sabis mom. My wife says I have spoiled him too much. I brush him every day and he goes to sleep most of the time. I was not strict enough with him in the past, I know that. I loved him first and then trained him second. He will do whatever I ask of him while we are at home alone. I read a lot about the GSD before and after we got him. Most of what I read was about becoming the ALPHA, leader and so on. I never tried to become that, I just wanted a happy healthy buddy. I'll try and find some pics of just him and not me with him. Thanks again Sabis mom. Richie.


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## Richie

Twyla said:


> Richie, I sent via private msge the name and phone # of the trainer I used with Woolf. She is in the Gwinnett area and depending on your location in GA, well worth the drive.
> 
> Completely agree with with previous posts. Medical exam. Crate training. Muzzle conditioning. High level of OB.
> 
> Whichever trainer you do decide to go with; verify their experience. Unfortunately, we have a huge number of less then knowledgeable 'trainers' in GA. You want a balanced trainer, not positive only.


Twyla, I sent you a PM, thanks. Richie


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## Jax08

@Richie - I just saw your introduction post and your age. With no disrespect meant and only concern. I would be telling my dad the very same thing I'm telling you. 

Please Please Please get a good trainer. This is a young, powerful, male. I think you are very lucky that you were able to overcome him and that he exercised some inhibition by allowing it. I really feel this is a training issue and possibly a dog that has had no rules. Please be realistic about what is best for you and your wife to keep you safe. This could have ended so very badly. I hope Twyla's trainer works out for you.


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## Saco

I agree with people who posted that the dog showed a lot of inhibition here. Had he wanted to hurt you badly, he very well could have. This tells me, without seeing the dog of course, that is it mainly a training issue and not something new or medical.

I do know of a great trainer in North Carolina, if you wanted to make a drive. 

But please find and start working with an experienced trainer. As in immediately. He is now a fully mature male dog who will start testing and already has... it isn't too late to turn this around, but it needs to start now.


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## Jax08

Richie said:


> Most of what I read was about becoming the ALPHA, leader and so on. I never tried to become that, I just wanted a happy healthy buddy. I'll try and find some pics of just him and not me with him. Thanks again Sabis mom. Richie.


The "alpha" thing is bull. The person who did the wolf study and came up with that has long since retracted his theory.

You need to be a leader. You need to be respected. You need to be TRUSTED. Not only to trusted to be fair but also to be a leader. Please make sure the trainer you find is balanced, positive based with fair corrections.


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## Chip Blasiole

It sounds like a temperament problem more than a training or medical problem, as the dog has been this way from the beginning. Your description sounds like he is a sharp-shy dog who is reactive out of fear and insecurity. The constant destructiveness supports that he is a very anxious dog. "The sharp-shy dog is the epitome of bad temperament. He is easily driven to panic by the unfamiliar... This psychologically unstable animal will, if the occasion arises, bite one of its owners in blind panic without even being aware of having done so." Often this type of dog is put down/euthanized.


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## Richie

Jax08 said:


> @*Richie* - I just saw your introduction post and your age. With no disrespect meant and only concern. I would be telling my dad the very same thing I'm telling you.
> 
> Please Please Please get a good trainer. This is a young, powerful, male. I think you are very lucky that you were able to overcome him and that he exercised some inhibition by allowing it. I really feel this is a training issue and possibly a dog that has had no rules. Please be realistic about what is best for you and your wife to keep you safe. This could have ended so very badly. I hope Twyla's trainer works out for you.


Jax08, I completely understand your comments and greatly appreciate your concern. My dog is 98 lbs and very muscular, he tracks down 30 to 40 Frisbees every day as fast as he can run. I will do research into finding training help. Twyla has suggested a trainer and I will follow up. Thanks once again. Richie.


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## Richie

Chip Blasiole said:


> It sounds like a temperament problem more than a training or medical problem, as the dog has been this way from the beginning. Your description sounds like he is a sharp-shy dog who is reactive out of fear and insecurity. The constant destructiveness supports that he is a very anxious dog. "The sharp-shy dog is the epitome of bad temperament. He is easily driven to panic by the unfamiliar... This psychologically unstable animal will, if the occasion arises, bite one of its owners in blind panic without even being aware of having done so." Often this type of dog is put down/euthanized.


Thanks Chip for your comment. My dog is back to "better" than normal to this point. We rubbed heads this morning and I brushed him until he fell asleep. I think he has been and probably is a fearful dog, when anyone approaches me or my wife the dog's hair stands up on the back of his neck and butt and he growls very aggressively. When I let him out into the fenced back yard he takes off like a jet with his hair standing up, I guess he thinks something might be out there. I have no intention of getting rid of him, I will work thru this. I raised my two previous GSDs back in the 60"s the same way I raised my current dog and they were both perfect loveable dogs. Again, thanks Chip. Richie.


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## Richie

Saco said:


> I agree with people who posted that the dog showed a lot of inhibition here. Had he wanted to hurt you badly, he very well could have. This tells me, without seeing the dog of course, that is it mainly a training issue and not something new or medical.
> 
> I do know of a great trainer in North Carolina, if you wanted to make a drive.
> 
> But please find and start working with an experienced trainer. As in immediately. He is now a fully mature male dog who will start testing and already has... it isn't too late to turn this around, but it needs to start now.


 Thanks Saco, I do have a lead on a trainer close by and will get in touch. Richie.


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## Chip Blasiole

Richie said:


> Thanks Chip for your comment. My dog is back to "better" than normal to this point. We rubbed heads this morning and I brushed him until he fell asleep. I think he has been and probably is a fearful dog, when anyone approaches me or my wife the dog's hair stands up on the back of his neck and butt and he growls very aggressively. When I let him out into the fenced back yard he takes off like a jet with his hair standing up, I guess he thinks something might be out there. I have no intention of getting rid of him, I will work thru this. I raised my two previous GSDs back in the 60"s the same way I raised my current dog and they were both perfect loveable dogs. Again, thanks Chip. Richie.



Sharp-shy dogs can be attached to their handler and even be sweet and kind with children in the household. But don't be surprised if he bites you again, especially if something unfamiliar happens and I am sure you are cautious with him in public. Make sure your fence is very secure. I am not suggesting you put him down. Just understand the liability and responsibility you have with such a dog. If he is a sharp-shy dog, this is a temperament issue that no trainer can fix.


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## Jax08

@Richie - do you have a pedigree for this dog?

Please don't get stuck in the mindset of you will not get rid of this dog. You need to do what is right to keep you and your wife safe. That could mean rehoming him to a person who can handle him. Just start with an experienced trainer who can properly evaluate this dog and your relationship.


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## Jenny720

8 week old puppies are not malicious the are do like to bite and some are more mouthy then others. I would go to vet and have full work up but this does sound like a temperament problem at three years plus of age they are mature for the most part and become who they are. It does sound like a temperament problem as the dog did go after you the owner. Powerful dogs must be trained well but they also must be sound and stable otherwise it can be a complete nightmare. Find a balanced trainer who has knowledge of this breed. I’m glad you are okay.


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## Jax08

@Richie 

Contact these people. Dennis Vander Linde has been involved with German Shepherds for decades. They are in Cumming GA. Dennis is the Director at Large for the USCA helper program. This would be one of my first choices regardless of the drive (I know GA is a big state!)

Canine Relations - Home


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## Twyla

Richie said:


> Twyla, I sent you a PM, thanks. Richie


I haven't received it. May have to resend it due to number of posts.


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## Sabis mom

Richie said:


> Thanks Chip for your comment. My dog is back to "better" than normal to this point. We rubbed heads this morning and I brushed him until he fell asleep. I think he has been and probably is a fearful dog, when anyone approaches me or my wife the dog's hair stands up on the back of his neck and butt and he growls very aggressively. When I let him out into the fenced back yard he takes off like a jet with his hair standing up, I guess he thinks something might be out there. I have no intention of getting rid of him, I will work thru this. *I raised my two previous GSDs back in the 60"s the same way* I raised my current dog and they were both perfect loveable dogs. Again, thanks Chip. Richie.


Do NOT get stuck in this trap! All dogs are different. The little monster I have now has challenged me at every turn to learn new skills, master new methods and create new plans. And she's sweet as sugar in her own home. 
I raised my Sabi girl with really little concern or effort and she was fabulous, out of the box perfect. I would not try that with most other dogs. 
As far as the whole ALPHA thing, it's been debunked thoroughly and completely as @Jax08 said. I'm a pretty horrible owner, let my dogs away with loads of crap no one would condone, encourage things like couch vaulting and lap sitting but my dogs have rules and are well aware that I am the boss. Even when I had 20 or so dogs in my house there was no biting, fighting or destruction. 
You are looking for firm, fair and consistent. You needn't be a tyrant, just set fair rules and make him follow them.


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## LuvShepherds

I am an experienced German Shepherd owner but when I got my WL puppy, it was like taking on a new breed. I made some mistakes and I changed my handling methods a lot. I am still learning and can't wait to use the new things I learned on the next dog. The best decision I ever made was using a private trainer. My dog is now an excellent companion at age 3, but getting there tried the core of my patience. The breeder said he was a medium drive dog. He is not. I think what she meant is that he's not over the top on drive, but it's much higher than I expected or planned for. However, he is medium energy, which I also did not expect. So, the private trainer explained what I was seeing and showed me how to work with his drive rather than against it. He's now an amazing dog. I should also say he has never showed any handler aggression, but I had other problems and made a few mistakes that were mostly correctable. Please find a good trainer and do what the person shows you. You can fix this!


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## tim_s_adams

Richie said:


> Hi Tim, I appreciate your comment. First lets get something straight, you said ""But physically grabbing and/or holding your dog on his back as a means of communication is also not needed, nor is it productive!"" Where did you get that from?? I have NEVER done that to my dog, PERIOD.


Richie, I apologize if I misinterpreted your description, but I came to the conclusion I did based on this:* "He was standing next to me so I reached down and slid my hand thru his collar, like I have done many times before, to scold him. "* in your original post. 

I did not intend to suggest you had or were abusing your dog, but again I read that statement to mean that grabbing your dog's collar to scold him is something you do and have done many times/frequently. 



Richie said:


> I have NEVER mistreated my dog, I treat him like a human.


I get that you love your dog, and your dog loves you. But as others have mentioned dogs need leadership, boundaries, and to be able to trust you to be predictable and stable in all situations. Treating them like a human, not so much. In fact, treating a dog like a human IS mistreatment. It's not malicious or abusive or ill-intentioned, but it just simply isn't what they need or thrive on. Dogs need structure and limits and leadership.

Now @Sabis mom says, in a self-depreciating way, that she's a terrible dog owner because she lets her dogs do things that others may not. But I'd suggest that her approach is the epitome of good dog leadership! She has rules, but allows what she (and her dogs) like! Leadership doesn't mean stuffy, or rigid, or mean; it's more about being consistent, and fair but firm on those things that are rules in your home - like no chewing on my furniture, or eating stuff off the counter. Simple, clear rules, that are ALWAYS enforced. And again, not enforced by being harsh or mean, but by being authoritative in manner and insistent, and consistent. I personally don't ask my dog to do anything. If I say "do this", I never allow any dog to not do it, period. But like her, I have no problem with dogs having fun in or out of the house, and I leave them alone to do as they like the vast majority of the time!

Perhaps @Chip Blasiole was spot on when he suggested that your dog is somewhat sharp-shy. I personally did not get that from how I read your description. But that might explain why your dog reacted as he did, especially if grabbing his collar to correct him is not something you would usually do...he may have felt threatened.

Either way, a good, balanced trainer can evaluate the dog and view your interaction with him first-hand and give you a much better idea of how to proceed with your dog.

I wish you both all the best moving forward!


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## Richie

tim_s_adams said:


> Richie, I apologize if I misinterpreted your description, but I came to the conclusion I did based on this:* "He was standing next to me so I reached down and slid my hand thru his collar, like I have done many times before, to scold him. "* in your original post.
> 
> I did not intend to suggest you had or were abusing your dog, but again I read that statement to mean that grabbing your dog's collar to scold him is something you do and have done many times/frequently.
> ""No apology necessary Tim."" Reading your comment sounded like my way of communicating with my dog was to throw him down on his back, which I have never done. I slide my hand thru his collar all the time, we sit and talk while I do this. Actually I should have made myself clearer, as he very seldom gets scolded. He has been the best he has ever been for the last week. Usually he thinks about any commands I give him and slowly does them, not today though, I put him thru his paces today at the request of my wife. To my astonishment every command I gave him, he did immediately, faster than ever before. I was amazed and told my wife as soon as she came home. She wanted to see for herself so I did it all over again and our dog did it again, kind of mad me proud.
> Anyway, Tim I think we have cleared things up a bit. Thanks for your concern and information, I appreciate that. Richie.
> 
> 
> I get that you love your dog, and your dog loves you. But as others have mentioned dogs need leadership, boundaries, and to be able to trust you to be predictable and stable in all situations. Treating them like a human, not so much. In fact, treating a dog like a human IS mistreatment. It's not malicious or abusive or ill-intentioned, but it just simply isn't what they need or thrive on. Dogs need structure and limits and leadership.
> 
> Now @*Sabis mom* says, in a self-depreciating way, that she's a terrible dog owner because she lets her dogs do things that others may not. But I'd suggest that her approach is the epitome of good dog leadership! She has rules, but allows what she (and her dogs) like! Leadership doesn't mean stuffy, or rigid, or mean; it's more about being consistent, and fair but firm on those things that are rules in your home - like no chewing on my furniture, or eating stuff off the counter. Simple, clear rules, that are ALWAYS enforced. And again, not enforced by being harsh or mean, but by being authoritative in manner and insistent, and consistent. I personally don't ask my dog to do anything. If I say "do this", I never allow any dog to not do it, period. But like her, I have no problem with dogs having fun in or out of the house, and I leave them alone to do as they like the vast majority of the time!
> 
> Perhaps @*Chip Blasiole* was spot on when he suggested that your dog is somewhat sharp-shy. I personally did not get that from how I read your description. But that might explain why your dog reacted as he did, especially if grabbing his collar to correct him is not something you would usually do...he may have felt threatened.
> 
> Either way, a good, balanced trainer can evaluate the dog and view your interaction with him first-hand and give you a much better idea of how to proceed with your dog.
> 
> I wish you both all the best moving forward!


 I appreciate that Tim, thanks Richie.


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## Richie

LuvShepherds said:


> I am an experienced German Shepherd owner but when I got my WL puppy, it was like taking on a new breed. I made some mistakes and I changed my handling methods a lot. I am still learning and can't wait to use the new things I learned on the next dog. The best decision I ever made was using a private trainer. My dog is now an excellent companion at age 3, but getting there tried the core of my patience. The breeder said he was a medium drive dog. He is not. I think what she meant is that he's not over the top on drive, but it's much higher than I expected or planned for. However, he is medium energy, which I also did not expect. So, the private trainer explained what I was seeing and showed me how to work with his drive rather than against it. He's now an amazing dog. I should also say he has never showed any handler aggression, but I had other problems and made a few mistakes that were mostly correctable. Please find a good trainer and do what the person shows you. You can fix this!


 Thanks LuvShepherds, working on it. Richie


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## Richie

Sabis mom said:


> Do NOT get stuck in this trap! All dogs are different. The little monster I have now has challenged me at every turn to learn new skills, master new methods and create new plans. And she's sweet as sugar in her own home.
> I raised my Sabi girl with really little concern or effort and she was fabulous, out of the box perfect. I would not try that with most other dogs.
> As far as the whole ALPHA thing, it's been debunked thoroughly and completely as @*Jax08* said. I'm a pretty horrible owner, let my dogs away with loads of crap no one would condone, encourage things like couch vaulting and lap sitting but my dogs have rules and are well aware that I am the boss. Even when I had 20 or so dogs in my house there was no biting, fighting or destruction.
> You are looking for firm, fair and consistent. You needn't be a tyrant, just set fair rules and make him follow them.


 Will do, Sabis mom, thanks. Richie


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## Richie

Twyla said:


> I haven't received it. May have to resend it due to number of posts.


I re-sent it, Thanks. Richie.


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## Richie

Jax08 said:


> @*Richie*
> 
> Contact these people. Dennis Vander Linde has been involved with German Shepherds for decades. They are in Cumming GA. Dennis is the Director at Large for the USCA helper program. This would be one of my first choices regardless of the drive (I know GA is a big state!)
> 
> Canine Relations - Home



Thanks Jax08, got it. Richie.


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## Richie

Jenny720 said:


> 8 week old puppies are not malicious the are do like to bite and some are more mouthy then others. I would go to vet and have full work up but this does sound like a temperament problem at three years plus of age they are mature for the most part and become who they are. It does sound like a temperament problem as the dog did go after you the owner. Powerful dogs must be trained well but they also must be sound and stable otherwise it can be a complete nightmare. Find a balanced trainer who has knowledge of this breed. I’m glad you are okay.


 Thank you Jenny720. Richie


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## tc68

There are several red flags I noticed in your postings.

1) "My wife says I have spoiled him too much." Someone outside (a third party) of YOUR relationship with YOUR dog is telling you that. From what I've been reading about your descriptions, it does sound like your wife is right.

2) "I have treated Tian (my GSD'S name) like a son." You gotta remember...he's a dog, not a human being. You can't "humanize" him and treat him like a human, especially this one. You have to treat him like a dog. He needs more discipline and boundaries. Also, I think with this dog, affection should be earned, not freely given.

3) "I raised my two previous GSDs back in the 60"s the same way I raised my current dog and they were both perfect loveable dogs." Something I keep saying in these forums is, *every dog is different*. They have different personalities, different genetics, etc. What works for 1 dog, may not work for another. You have to switch it up with this dog.

4) "I was not strict enough with him in the past" It's good that you realize that. I think with this particular dog you need to be stricter.

5) "He was aggressive at 8 weeks old, would bite all the time." That sounds like typical GSD puppy behavior. Everyone's gone through this. Something I've mentioned a lot in these threads...I've gone through 3 large boxes of bandages and 2.5 large tubes of Neosporin...all from his biting when he was small. Like someone else said, there are plenty of threads in these forums about the biting (or landsharking).

6) "He has chewed about everything in the house, so we decided to let that run its course and just replace everything afterward." Mistake right there...should've stopped it instead of letting it go. Also, I'm assuming he's doing the chewing when you're not around, because otherwise you would've stopped it right away. That means he needs to go in a crate. He cannot be trusted to be left alone. 

My suggestion...ditto what everyone else said: Find a good trainer who knows the breed and how to fix these issues. Meanwhile, I think you need to change the way you think and how you interact with this dog. He's not the same as your previous 2 GSDs. I've had to learn that same thing myself with the current dog...he's completely different than the previous one.


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## Chip Blasiole

It sounds like several are thinking this is a foundation or training issue when it is likely a severe temperament defect resulting in a psychologically unstable dog that is mentally unsound. Training can only possibly hide the fault to those who don't read dogs well. This type of temperament fault is not fixable.


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> It sounds like several are thinking this is a foundation or training issue when it is likely a severe temperament defect resulting in a psychologically unstable dog that is mentally unsound. Training can only possibly hide the fault to those who don't read dogs well. This type of temperament fault is not fixable.


What would you recommend then? In my experience training and management can allow all but the worst cases to live happy and productive lives. 
I am sort of reading a potential temperament issue that was exacerbated by a lack of foundation and training. An already insecure dog with no guidance. If he was truly aggressive the bite would have been worse and if he was one of the rare ones Richie would not have been so able to get him to release and back off, nor would the dog be making amends now.
I would truly like to hear your thoughts on where this should go, not being sarcastic. My experience is largely with poorly bred dogs and those already damaged by abuse, so I am always curious how people with normal dogs deal with these types of issues.


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## Chip Blasiole

I already recommended that he should be aware of the potential liability, the likelihood that this behavior will happen again, his fence should be secure and that the issue is a genetic temperament fault that training won't fix. It is not for me to say what the owner should do with his dog. I don't know what your definition of "truly aggressive" is but the OP said his dog attacked him violently and he was covered with blood. "You can't make chick salad out of chicken ****."


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## tc68

Chip Blasiole said:


> I already recommended that he should be aware of the potential liability, the likelihood that this behavior will happen again, his fence should be secure and that the issue is a genetic temperament fault that training won't fix. It is not for me to say what the owner should do with his dog. I don't know what your definition of "truly aggressive" is but the OP said his dog attacked him violently and he was covered with blood. "You can't make chick salad out of chicken ****."


Chip, you've already mentioned that it's a temperament issue. Ok, then tell Rich (and the rest of us) what Rich can do to "fix" the issue...what can he do to make things better with the dog? He asked for help and advice. Telling him to be aware of potential liability isn't fixing/solving the problem. (Are you telling us that the dog is a lost cause and a temperament issue is not fixable or manageable because that's what you're inferring?) That's preparing for something that hasn't happened yet. Tell him what he needs to do NOW so that the worst case scenario doesn't happen. How do you fix/solve/repair/control/manage (or whatever)...a temperament issue? Give him solutions or options and then maybe the rest of us can get behind you. Because many of us see good training by a good trainer will help manage the situation. But if you've got something better, let us in on what it is. I'm being sincere, not combative/sarcastic.


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## Chip Blasiole

You cannot fix a genetically poor temperament problem with any amount of love or training. The behaviors will never go away. He can only manage it and I have offered suggestions on managing the problem which essentially involve keeping others out of harm's way. Since Rich is keeping the dog, he will remain in harm's way.


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## Jax08

How about we let a professional trainer evaluate the dog in person instead of arguing about it online and hijacking the thread?


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## Chip Blasiole

I don't know what you are referring to when you mention arguing and hijacking. The problem with so-called professional dog trainers is that there is no federal or state requirements for certification or licensure, so anyone can call themselves a dog trainer. A person can get certified for about $3,000 to $5,000 dollars. Having credentials does not necessarily correlate with competency. If a person trains dogs for income, they are incentivized to sell their service. I understand a dog can't be assessed via a discussion board, but Rich gave a pretty good history that is very consistent with a sharp/shy dog that training won't mitigate. Think about Cesar Millan. He has no credentials and says his ability to train dogs is instinctual. He talks about the energy of the dog and the handler. He promotes being the alpha in the pack, which has been debunked. His methods are not based on science. He is a fan of flooding, where when a dog is afraid of something, the dog is exposed to the fearful stimulus at full force. He gets by on his charisma. Rich might be better off saving the money he would spend on a "professional" dog trainer to buy his next dog. Trainers can only teach a dog new behaviors. They can't change their temperament.


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> I already recommended that he should be aware of the potential liability, the likelihood that this behavior will happen again, his fence should be secure and that the issue is a genetic temperament fault that training won't fix. It is not for me to say what the owner should do with his dog. I don't know what your definition of "truly aggressive" is but the OP said his dog attacked him violently and he was covered with blood. "You can't make chick salad out of chicken ****."


Thank you for the reply. 
I was not trying to argue or hijack a thread. I owned an aggressive dog, and I currently own a fear aggressive dog. Your views are a bit opposite of my own and yet we do agree on some points. My opinion of most trainers is less then flattering and I dislike the "I can fix any dog" mentality. 
Having been bitten my fair share of times I guess it seems that most dog bites are fast, noisy and messy so I skim over descriptive terms by the victims. 
My aggressive dog was almost impossible to get off an attack, which is why he is gone now. 
My fear aggressive dog will bite if threatened or cornered but is unlikely to do more then bite and leave.

Things like the dog leaving the room voluntarily and displaying "honeymoon" behavior speak volumes to me. Yes it remains a temperament issue but most fearful dogs show vast improvement with capable and appropriate training.
I have managed to drag Shadow all over the darn country, in and out of all sorts of strange and unusual situations. And I was WAY over my head with her! Common sense, proper training and diligent handling all come into play. In almost nine years she has managed two bites, one guy that reached over my fence and grabbed her and one guy who walked over to my truck and stuck his fingers into her crate.


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## Jax08

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don't know what you are referring to when you mention arguing and hijacking. The problem with so-called professional dog trainers is that there is no federal or state requirements for certification or licensure, so anyone can call themselves a dog trainer. A person can get certified for about $3,000 to $5,000 dollars. Having credentials does not necessarily correlate with competency. If a person trains dogs for income, they are incentivized to sell their service. I understand a dog can't be assessed via a discussion board, but Rich gave a pretty good history that is very consistent with a sharp/shy dog that training won't mitigate. Think about Cesar Millan. He has no credentials and says his ability to train dogs is instinctual. He talks about the energy of the dog and the handler. He promotes being the alpha in the pack, which has been debunked. His methods are not based on science. He is a fan of flooding, where when a dog is afraid of something, the dog is exposed to the fearful stimulus at full force. He gets by on his charisma. Rich might be better off saving the money he would spend on a "professional" dog trainer to buy his next dog. Trainers can only teach a dog new behaviors. They can't change their temperament.



Did I recommend Cesar Milan? Did anyone? No. Twyla recommended someone she has personal experience with and I recommended the director of the USCA helper program. Just taking a wild guess that Dennis may know a thing or two about german shepherds.

You are guessing that it's 100% temperament based. We are guessing that part of the problem may be no rules. And since not a single person on here can actually see the dog, how about the 75 year old man with the 100# dog go see someone in person instead of debating crazy Cesar Milan.


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## Richie

Thanks to everyone for your comments, concerns and info supplied to me. I have emailed Chris Redenbach and also Dennis Van Der Linde . 
I hope all works out well, I'll return with a progress report at some point in the future. Again thank you very much. Richie.


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## Chip Blasiole

Jax08 said:


> Did I recommend Cesar Milan? Did anyone? No. Twyla recommended someone she has personal experience with and I recommended the director of the USCA helper program. Just taking a wild guess that Dennis may know a thing or two about german shepherds.
> 
> You are guessing that it's 100% temperament based. We are guessing that part of the problem may be no rules. And since not a single person on here can actually see the dog, how about the 75 year old man with the 100# dog go see someone in person instead of debating crazy Cesar Milan.



You did not mention Cesar, but he is a professional dog trainer, even though he markets himself as someone who "rehabilitates" the dog and his owners. Being the director of the USCA helper program doesn't mean that person has any expertise in canine behavioral problems. His expertise is in training helpers for a performance sport. Any assessment of a dog is an educated (sometimes) guess. There are no scientifically developed diagnostic criteria based on research for canine mental/behavioral disorders. Lack of rules doesn't support an etiology for a dog being overly defensive, reactive and aggressively biting his handler just because he grabbed his collar.


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## GSDchoice

Richie said:


> I think he has been and probably is a fearful dog, when anyone approaches me or my wife the dog's hair stands up on the back of his neck and butt and he growls very aggressively.


I read a bit about sharp-shy dogs out of curiosity, and this is almost the textbook description....that level of arousal about anything that's unfamiliar. 
Especially because he is not a rescue, he has been in a loving home since he was a pup...
That said, in none of the articles did anybody ever say to give up on a dog - 
just that the dog must be managed, and not to expect that the dog can ever be trained into a friendly outgoing "Lassie".

But - as in the case of kids, it's probably not a good idea to 'label' without spending time with the dog! 

Lastly, just hope that Richie will take care. 
The 70s are a time when the slightest mishap or accident can change your life drastically. For example, my mom recently took a fall - for many people it would have just been a bruise, but in her case she fractured her shoulder and could not use her arm for weeks. If it had been her hip, she might have had to go into assisted living. It is very important to get your dog disciplined, respectful (and crate-trained) ... the love may not be enough to keep you safe. Take care!


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> You did not mention Cesar, but he is a professional dog trainer, even though he markets himself as someone who "rehabilitates" the dog and his owners. Being the director of the USCA helper program doesn't mean that person has any expertise in canine behavioral problems. His expertise is in training helpers for a performance sport. Any assessment of a dog is an educated (sometimes) guess. *There are no scientifically developed diagnostic criteria based on research for canine mental/behavioral disorders*. Lack of rules doesn't support an etiology for a dog being overly defensive, reactive and aggressively biting his handler just because he grabbed his collar.


This is not entirely true. Canine psychology has been and continues to be extensively studied, and we learn more every day. 
I received a certificate(lol) in canine psychology back in the early 90's so it's not a new field of study and it has continued to evolve. And yes it was from an accredited and well known ag college, where I actually attended classes and stuff.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-dogs-go-heaven/201206/understanding-aggression-in-dogs

This touches on a lot of common issues and explains why many of us say "vet check" first. It also calls out a few common myths. Studies are ongoing and while there may not yet be a defined diagnostic guide we have a pretty solid guideline at this point.

And as was just mentioned none of our current guidelines in training or psychology mention throwing away the dog. 
Many of us on here have less then ideal pets and we get by. No one can convince me Shadow isn't the best dog ever.

I sincerely hope that Richie and his dog find their way ahead and I look forward to updates.


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## Jax08

Richie said:


> Thanks to everyone for your comments, concerns and info supplied to me. I have emailed Chris Redenbach and also Dennis Van Der Linde .
> I hope all works out well, I'll return with a progress report at some point in the future. Again thank you very much. Richie.


Good Luck Richie. Please keep us updated.


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## Chip Blasiole

Sabis mom said:


> This is not entirely true. Canine psychology has been and continues to be extensively studied, and we learn more every day.
> I received a certificate(lol) in canine psychology back in the early 90's so it's not a new field of study and it has continued to evolve. And yes it was from an accredited and well known ag college, where I actually attended classes and stuff.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-dogs-go-heaven/201206/understanding-aggression-in-dogs
> 
> This touches on a lot of common issues and explains why many of us say "vet check" first. It also calls out a few common myths. Studies are ongoing and while there may not yet be a defined diagnostic guide we have a pretty solid guideline at this point.
> 
> And as was just mentioned none of our current guidelines in training or psychology mention throwing away the dog.
> Many of us on here have less then ideal pets and we get by. No one can convince me Shadow isn't the best dog ever.
> 
> I sincerely hope that Richie and his dog find their way ahead and I look forward to updates.


 
I found the article a little iffy. The author's educational credentials are in what appears to be religious studies and possibly some ethics. It feels like she has developed some ethical views of peoples' ethical relationships with animals. The article was definitely lacking in an ethology based perspective on canine aggression, which comes in many forms with different emotional states that are catalysts for different forms of aggression. She mentioned factors that contribute to making a dog "mean" which is anthropomorphism and not useful in discussing problem aggression in dogs. She did say genetics were a factor in what I think she was referring to in an unstable dog. I largely disagreed with her comments that certain breeds like pit bulls, GDS's and Rottweilers are not inherently aggressive and a dog's breed has far less to do with aggression than owner-dependent factors. As for pit bulls, the early, good breeders selected away from human aggression because they selected for animal aggression because the breed was developed to fight animals. Rottweiler's and GSDs were certainly selectively breed for human aggression. And the term aggression is too simplistic as there are different forms of aggression. You don't see police departments using Poodles, retrievers, and Fox Hounds as patrol dogs for a reason and you do see GSDs and Mals because they have inherited the genetics for various forms of aggression. I believe that people who are skilled and experienced in training dogs to develop their aggression for man work are more qualified to read a dog and understand what is motivating its various forms of aggression than academics doing research.


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## rabsparks

Has your dog started ANY new meds? Excerpt from my book.

"Paradoxical Reactions: It Can Happen to You

The three-year old German shepherd had been agitated a bit, and his owners decided to bring the dog to their local veterinarian. Finding no physical reason for the dog's behavior, the vet recommended a short course of Acepromazine. "Ace" is a frequently used drug to calm a dog that's fearful of thunderstorms. It's also used as a pre-operative sedative, and for a multitude of other uses, all of them valid. I've used it on thunder-phobic shepherds over the past decades and never had a problem with it. And it's one of those drugs that I keep around just in case I need it.

The owners took the dog home. In the coming days they saw a marked increase in aggression, directed toward them. When the dog finally turned and tried to bite the husband, it signaled the end.

We don't know, of course, what caused the dog's initial agitation. But most likely the marked increase in his level of agitation after having been given Acepromazine may well have been the result of the drug causing what's called in the veterinary world as a "paradoxical reaction"–a response that's one hundred and eighty degrees from what you'd normally expect."


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## crittersitter

I can only think of 2 things to consider after the medical evaluation. And I'm sorry to be blunt. 1) Get an evaluation of the dog from an excellent trainer to see what if anything can be done. 2) Consider euthanasia. Once your own dog attacks you viciously you really have to consider that as perhaps the kindest option. None of my dogs would ever do that so I'd say that honestly something is wrong with your dog physically or mentally.


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## Muskeg

Handler aggression with an inexperienced or lenient handler is far from unheard of in working line sheperds and malinois. In fact, it is expected in some lines- I believe Slam Dunc (Jim) on this forum has seen quite a few working K9s labeled handler aggressive, partly due to handler errors, partly genetics.


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> I found the article a little iffy. The author's educational credentials are in what appears to be religious studies and possibly some ethics. It feels like she has developed some ethical views of peoples' ethical relationships with animals. The article was definitely lacking in an ethology based perspective on canine aggression, which comes in many forms with different emotional states that are catalysts for different forms of aggression. She mentioned factors that contribute to making a dog "mean" which is anthropomorphism and not useful in discussing problem aggression in dogs. She did say genetics were a factor in what I think she was referring to in an unstable dog. I largely disagreed with her comments that certain breeds like pit bulls, GDS's and Rottweilers are not inherently aggressive and a dog's breed has far less to do with aggression than owner-dependent factors. As for pit bulls, the early, good breeders selected away from human aggression because they selected for animal aggression because the breed was developed to fight animals. Rottweiler's and GSDs were certainly selectively breed for human aggression. And the term aggression is too simplistic as there are different forms of aggression. You don't see police departments using Poodles, retrievers, and Fox Hounds as patrol dogs for a reason and you do see GSDs and Mals because they have inherited the genetics for various forms of aggression. I believe that people who are skilled and experienced in training dogs to develop their aggression for man work are more qualified to read a dog and understand what is motivating its various forms of aggression than academics doing research.


Since as you previously stated there are no real qualifiers for trainers I find it interesting that you would now state that a person lacks qualifications unless they are a trainer. The article was clearly written to be easily understood by a pet owner and as such it makes sense that the author would use laymen's terms such as mean. 
Everyone talks about aggression, when the simple facts are that ALL dogs possess some degree of aggression, so do humans and in fact all mammals. Tick off a cow sometime. What the author is saying is that the commonly held "aggressive breeds" are not as they are represented. 
German Shepherds were not in fact developed for police work but their willingness, courage and loyalty made them good candidates for any job needed. 
Any shepherd dog will have natural guarding and defensive drives, it's part of the job. 
Anyway I don't wish to argue and I certainly mean no offense, we are clearly of differing opinions here. Your position is that this particular dog is a genetic problem and unfixable, my position is that while it may have genetic flaws they have been exacerbated by lack of structure and discipline and can be corrected and controlled if not entirely fixed.
Since neither of us can physically see dog it will be most interesting to read the trainers assessment when we are all updated. I completely enjoy learning, hence the multiple useless certificates I have, and I am always willing to adjust my opinions as new information becomes available.
I do absolutely agree with your stance on safety and liability.


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## flynbyu2

If he’s still intact, you might want consider having him neutered. That really took the edge off my 3 year old.


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## Chip Blasiole

Sabis,
My point about qualifications and trainers was that anyone can call themselves a trainer, but that doesn't mean they know what they are doing. It doesn't mean all people who train dogs are incompetent. Regarding aggression, some forms of it are desirable and some are not. Training and genetics are both factors. In Rich's case, it sounds like genetics is the primary culprit. While GSDs were developed for herding, selection in breeding has shifted a good deal, so the end result is different strains of dogs. Some of the working lines have been selected more for traits that would assist them in police apprehension. I don't believe that all GSD will have natural guarding drives. Many do not. Soldes just posted about burglars coming into his house and the dog did nothing. The herding lines were also a different genetic strain and are pretty much extinct. Defensive drive is for survival, so it will always be there, but it can be strong and active or weak and passive.


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## Jenny720

I sure don’t believe in just rehoming dogs without trying and accepting advise just based on assumption via the internet. A highly recommended trainer with knowledge of gsd is wise to seek out to evaluate the situation and help give options and guide the owners to the next step. As well as gifted, there are way to many close minded teachers, doctors etc. all certified and absolutely awful at what they do. Recommendations can go along way regarding certified and non certified services and so do second or third opinions if needed. I also say listen to your instincts. I would remove any collars to just to prevent grabbing at collar also in a habit form. The first would be a vet check though to see if the dog was in severe pain or any other reasons why the dog may have reacted so severely.


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## Kazel

Chip Blasiole said:


> Sabis,
> My point about qualifications and trainers was that anyone can call themselves a trainer, but that doesn't mean they know what they are doing. It doesn't mean all people who train dogs are incompetent. Regarding aggression, some forms of it are desirable and some are not. Training and genetics are both factors. In Rich's case, it sounds like genetics is the primary culprit. While GSDs were developed for herding, selection in breeding has shifted a good deal, so the end result is different strains of dogs. Some of the working lines have been selected more for traits that would assist them in police apprehension. I don't believe that all GSD will have natural guarding drives. Many do not. Soldes just posted about burglars coming into his house and the dog did nothing. The herding lines were also a different genetic strain and are pretty much extinct. Defensive drive is for survival, so it will always be there, but it can be strong and active or weak and passive.


Soldes dog was in a crate so not sure what it was expected to do. 

Additionally many poorly bred byb dogs start to show some herding instinct/traits. And different environments can adjust how a dog behaves. My dogs previous owners got rid of her for being too nice, said they'd never even heard her bark. She now barks to alert with us. I doubt she'd do more than that but it is there to some degree some guarding instinct. 

I didn't think so because of how beaten down my dog was when she first came to us. But I also think she'd be fully capable of tending style herding. She tries to do it now as is, just minus anything to actually herd such as sheep. 

Also many many dogs who are coddled and spoiled and treated like people instead of dogs have problems with biting. They're primarily small breed dogs but it is possible to see in dogs who don't have boundaries or proper training. Which it sounds like this dog does not since he was given free reign to destroy the house. I myself have been bitten and almost bitten by 2 small dogs raised by the same person, she was very lenient and soft with them. One of them ended up living with us and he turned into a great dog who didn't try to bite anymore after we worked with him and treated him like a dog. 

You can love your dog and spoil them but still set boundaries and limits and train them. The two or not mutually exclusive. Although depending on the dog thing change on how you can spoil them. For example (and I know table scraps are frowned upon) my dog (not the gsd) is a great dog but also if given an inch can take a mile. My mom really wanted to give a couple pieces of leftovers so I said okay as long as you put them in her bowl. That same night my dog jumped up on the counter for the first time. So some dogs you will have to be stricter and not do certain things. But you can definitely spoil and love them in other ways.

So OP I hope the trainers you go to are good and can help teach you to get a handle on your dog. There's a good chance he'll even enjoy training and make sure everybody in the home keeps up with what you learn or it'll be difficult to get the training to stick.


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## Jenny720

That’s right I did not see that. Yes soldes dog was in a crate. Lucky the dog was not stolen crate and all. I’m sure that has happened way to often. What can the dog do? I heard of dogs trained in protection who were locked up did nothing in home invasions due to the fact they were locked up. I think dogs who are trained for protection can do more damage but I would not under estimate the natural protective instinct some dogs have no matter of its genetics on paper and strong herding instincts that have been ingrained and show up which I see are still there in many gsds despite and how many sheeps they herd.Look at the dog in front of you. The same mind set is in schools if their check list can’t be completed in regards to really young students not everyone can fit into their boxes- thankfully.


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## Chip Blasiole

Kazel said:


> But I also think she'd be fully capable of tending style herding. She tries to do it now as is, just minus anything to actually herd such as sheep.



True tending style of herding sheep involves GDSs tending sometimes 300-800 sheep. The dogs need to bite and grip the sheep and act as a living fence, including keeping a large flock of sheep out of other peoples' vegetable gardens, even when the sheep are hungry and have only been able to graze on grass. If a flock damages a large garden, it will cost the shepherd a lot of money. The dogs are only supposed to bite the wooly part of the sheep so that they don't injure or kill any sheep. They have a genetic instinct not to bite a lamb. I don't know what type of tending style herding you are referring to, but only GSDs from true herding lines, which are all but gone, have the genetic obedience to herd correctly.


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## Sabis mom

Jenny720 said:


> That’s right I did not see that. Yes soldes dog was in a crate. Lucky the dog was not stolen crate and all. I’m sure that has happened way to often. What can the dog do? I heard of dogs trained in protection who were locked up did nothing in home invasions due to the fact they were locked up. I think dogs who are trained for protection can do more damage but I would not under estimate the natural protective instinct some dogs have no matter of its genetic on paper and herding instincts. Look at the dog in front of you. The same mind set is in schools if their check list can’t be completed in regards to really young students not everyone can fit into their boxes- thankfully.


PPD's should be protecting people not property. Sabi could not have cared less about the house, would probably have convinced thieves to get her treats. Her instinct and training only kicked in to protect me. I see no real issue with a dog not defending an empty house.


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## Chip Blasiole

Jenny720 said:


> That’s right I did not see that. Yes soldes dog was in a crate. Lucky the dog was not stolen crate and all. I’m sure that has happened way to often. What can the dog do? I heard of dogs trained in protection who were locked up did nothing in home invasions due to the fact they were locked up. I think dogs who are trained for protection can do more damage but I would not under estimate the natural protective instinct some dogs have no matter of its genetic on paper and herding instincts. Look at the dog in front of you. The same mind set is in schools if their check list can’t be completed in regards to really young students not everyone can fit into their boxes- thankfully.


A good personal protection dog has to have the right balance of socialness and mistrust. If they are too social, they are useless. Same if they are too mistrustful because you can't have them around people in public or at your home, so they are not available to protect. Just like with herding dogs, true personal protection dogs require a very specific type of temperament and traits and are not that easy to find.


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## Chip Blasiole

Sabis mom said:


> PPD's should be protecting people not property. Sabi could not have cared less about the house, would probably have convinced thieves to get her treats. Her instinct and training only kicked in to protect me. I see no real issue with a dog not defending an empty house.



A good personal protection dog will protect property from strangers. Protecting the property is part of protecting the people living there. The dog needs a certain level of mistrust and discernment. They would be able to discern if some small children came onto some enclosed property. This level of dog is not that easy to come by. And if your dog has never attacked an intruder as part of his training, you really don't know that he would protect you.


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## Jenny720

Sabis mom said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That’s right I did not see that. Yes soldes dog was in a crate. Lucky the dog was not stolen crate and all. I’m sure that has happened way to often. What can the dog do? I heard of dogs trained in protection who were locked up did nothing in home invasions due to the fact they were locked up. I think dogs who are trained for protection can do more damage but I would not under estimate the natural protective instinct some dogs have no matter of its genetic on paper and herding instincts. Look at the dog in front of you. The same mind set is in schools if their check list can’t be completed in regards to really young students not everyone can fit into their boxes- thankfully.
> 
> 
> 
> PPD's should be protecting people not property. Sabi could not have cared less about the house, would probably have convinced thieves to get her treats. Her instinct and training only kicked in to protect me. I see no real issue with a dog not defending an empty house.
Click to expand...

I had a personal protection dog. When we were not home he would not let strangers in his house at all. People he knew and trusted well but no strangers. Scared the **** of our cleaning lady who tried to come in the house. Someone he was familiar with but not on a personal level. He unlocked and opened the door to the room he was locked in fairly quickly and would not allow her in the house as no one was home. After that incident he had no issues with her as I was always home to let her in.


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## Jenny720

Chip Blasiole said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That’s right I did not see that. Yes soldes dog was in a crate. Lucky the dog was not stolen crate and all. I’m sure that has happened way to often. What can the dog do? I heard of dogs trained in protection who were locked up did nothing in home invasions due to the fact they were locked up. I think dogs who are trained for protection can do more damage but I would not under estimate the natural protective instinct some dogs have no matter of its genetic on paper and herding instincts. Look at the dog in front of you. The same mind set is in schools if their check list can’t be completed in regards to really young students not everyone can fit into their boxes- thankfully.
> 
> 
> 
> A good personal protection dog has to have the right balance of socialness and mistrust. If they are too social, they are useless. Same if they are too mistrustful because you can't have them around people in public or at your home, so they are not available to protect. Just like with herding dogs, true personal protection dogs require a very specific type of temperament and traits and are not that easy to find.
Click to expand...

There must be a balance and that does not mean it’s black nor white but with many different levels of shades that make it work.


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> A good personal protection dog will protect property from strangers. Protecting the property is part of protecting the people living there. The dog needs a certain level of mistrust and discernment. They would be able to discern if some small children came onto some enclosed property. This level of dog is not that easy to come by. And if your dog has never attacked an intruder as part of his training, you really don't know that he would protect you.


Sabs had a long and highly successful career as a working dog. She was called on multiple times to protect me, to detain people, to stand her ground, to escort people, to track people and to identify issues and to be really clear she would absolutely defend a vehicle or dwelling that I was in, she simply had no interest in territory. 
I agree that discernment is key, but a PPD is no good to it's people if it can be lured off to protect a yard.

As far as the herding, multiple knowledgeable people have noted that the instinct seems fairly commonly found in BYB dogs. For whatever reason it seems to have survived in less manipulated lines. Kazel pointed this out as well. Some have surmised that the byb dogs may ultimately prove a genetic goldmine in some regards.

I am in NO WAY supporting or condoning poor breeding practices, it is simply an observation that has been made by multiple people. 

With regards to the OP's dog, as @Kazel pointed out it is certainly not unheard of for a poorly managed and trained, spoiled dog to bite in fact it is all too common. 

Hackling up and rushing indicate excitement and a lack of impulse control.


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## Jenny720

I have seen American showlines with natural herding instinct but many will say though that does not count if they do not herd 800 sheep. There are difference in herding practices -yes. You can not make a dog herd sheep if there is no herding instinct in the dog. The look of joy when they are doing also a site to see.


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## RLRKAPLAN

I am the Alpha in the house, and my male attacked my husband like that a few years ago. We were all in the garage, and I had gone into the house. My husband said he play swatted Maximus thigh, and he turned and attacked. My husband took him to the ground and held him down; and from that day, Maximus has respected my husband.


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## Chip Blasiole

Sabis mom said:


> As far as the herding, multiple knowledgeable people have noted that the instinct seems fairly commonly found in BYB dogs. For whatever reason it seems to have survived in less manipulated lines. Kazel pointed this out as well. Some have surmised that the byb dogs may ultimately prove a genetic goldmine in some regards.



We must be talking apples and oranges. Maybe these knowledgeable people are talking about AKC herding with maybe 3-20 sheep and not a 24/7 test. True herding traits have to be carefully selected for and even with the best old breeders of GSD herding lines, they might get 1-3 dogs in a litter who could do the work well. So I don't think you will find any BYB GSDs with true herding ability. It is a genetic gift. A good herding dog needs the traits of total attraction to sheep and genetic obedience which is a willingness to please the shepherd and to accept the shepherd as the leader. Just like with schutzhund, the SV has ruined HGH resulting into a loss of valuable genetics. They lowered the standards just as in schutzhund. Now there are HGH conformation dogs that have nothing to do with herding and HGH performance dogs, much like the split between the German show lines and German working lines. Just as SV judges in schutzhund have largely lost the ability to know and recognize working genetics, SV herding judges no longer know about herding genetics/traits. I don't see any golden genetics for herding in any BYB dogs.


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## Jenny720

RLRKAPLAN said:


> I am the Alpha in the house, and my male attacked my husband like that a few years ago. We were all in the garage, and I had gone into the house. My husband said he play swatted Maximus thigh, and he turned and attacked. My husband took him to the ground and held him down; and from that day, Maximus has respected my husband.


I would not advise anyone holding a dog down but respect can be gained naturally through rules and boundaries and time spent with the dog and through obedience. One time Karat was on my moms couch when I was living at my moms with him. I did not have him long maybe two - three weeks but spend all my time with him. Now when I walked in the room he would jump down real fast off the couch with the most guilty look and rarely I saw him on the couch nor did I have to say a thing to him. One time he was on the couch when I was not around and my mom swatted him real lightly on his lower back to get off the couch. he turned and growled and showed his teeth as he climbed off the couch. I did find soon after he had a bad abscess with something embedded in his skin on his lower back that was really sore and the caused growling at my mom. Another reason why I stress vet checks. Holding him down would of been a disaster regardless of the abscess or not.


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## Jenny720

As herding 50 sheep or hundreds of sheep the dog needs in the blood to do it. No doubt Max has it in his blood. It sure is not in my blood but I sure learned a lot when I did take sheep lessons I’m the big field. He would rather herd sheep then eat. It is easy to see when you have a dog as forward as he is that loves the work -no math equations there. 24 /7 herding sheep lol that would be his heaven as it would be for the dogs who herd sheep.


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## debhib

Have you considered re-homing or seeing if the breeder would take him back? After having him for three years, I'm sure you feel bonded to him and hate to think of giving him up, but it might be the best thing for both of you. The attack on you sounds quite serious and likely could be repeated under the right circumstances with more tragic results. Ask yourself these questions. Do you fully trust him now? Did the attack affect how you feel about him in any way? Are you more hesitant to correct him now? Do you feel like you'll be able to establish leadership, because he sounds like the kind of GSD that absolutely requires a strong leader. Will you need to manage your life and his in such a way that he has no access to kids, neighbors, and other family members who might trigger an attack? An aggressive dog who attacks without warning like that is a major liability. How do the other people in your household feel about him, and do you think they are safe with him? I had a GSD like him who was aggressive with everyone and everything. He had Czech/DDR ancestry in his background. Serious working line dog that needed a job and a dominant leader. He was always testing us, was an embarrassment to take out in public because he would lunge and snarl at anyone who went by, and tried twice to attack my elderly mother, growled at my teen son, and once came after me. After he came at me, when I was the one who fed him, walked him, played with him, and worked on obedience with him, I was done. We took him back to the breeder. I admitted my limitations. I did not have the time (I work full-time) or the energy ( auto-immune disease saps my energy) to do the serious in-depth work that he needed. Once he was gone, I realized how much stress he'd caused our household. We ended up adopting a rescue GSD, probably show line, much lower energy level and super chill, sweet personality who is a delight to live with. If you keep him, which it sounds like you want to do, definitely follow through with getting a professional trainer involved. Even though he's been behaving better lately, this issue is unlikely to resolve itself without a lot of work and training.


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## Twyla

flynbyu2 said:


> If he’s still intact, you might want consider having him neutered. That really took the edge off my 3 year old.


Altering a dog can actually increase aggression depending on the type of aggression. The first step is to establish what the the dog is dealing with - which requires an experienced trainer.

There are links embedded throughout the Aggression forum on this if you would like to research it further.


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## cliffson1

Chip Blasiole said:


> We must be talking apples and oranges. Maybe these knowledgeable people are talking about AKC herding with maybe 3-20 sheep and not a 24/7 test. True herding traits have to be carefully selected for and even with the best old breeders of GSD herding lines, they might get 1-3 dogs in a litter who could do the work well. So I don't think you will find any BYB GSDs with true herding ability. It is a genetic gift. A good herding dog needs the traits of total attraction to sheep and genetic obedience which is a willingness to please the shepherd and to accept the shepherd as the leader. Just like with schutzhund, the SV has ruined HGH resulting into a loss of valuable genetics. They lowered the standards just as in schutzhund. Now there are HGH conformation dogs that have nothing to do with herding and HGH performance dogs, much like the split between the German show lines and German working lines. Just as SV judges in schutzhund have largely lost the ability to know and recognize working genetics, SV herding judges no longer know about herding genetics/traits. I don't see any golden genetics for herding in any BYB dogs.


I do not agree that you won’t find any BYB GS with true Herding ability. BYB GS have the same genetics as so called reputable bred GS except that they haven’t been concentrated to exaggerate a certain aspect of the breed...ie, color, angulation, drives, aggression, size, etc. The Herding instinct is a part of the breed that will always be present though it can be diminished by specialized breeding. But even specialized lines, that have been stripped of key components of the breed, will show Herding instinct in some cases when exposed to sheep. Jmo


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## Rana

You can also contact Wallace Payne at South Metro Atlanta Schutzhund Club - he is in Sharpsburg, GA - south west of Atlanta. Based on his accomplishments I am sure he knows a thing or two about dogs and GSDs. Good luck with your dog.


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## Bebe

An annual exam does not test for everything. I had to get special tests for Riley to see why he kept losing weight and he annuals regularly. Tell you vet what has happened and ask what would cause that regular behavior to attack behavior. Could there be a medical problem to test like a brain lesion or tumor. I'm not sure what to ask but the vet will understand what you are trying to find out.

If there is no health issue, you MUST get an experienced trainer with GSD experience. GSD's do not normally bite. They are taught to bite. I'm not saying they are not protective. Some are but they are not attack dogs unless they are taught to be.

He may not be getting enough exercise to burn off his energy. That is so important. If they are bored they can be destructive. A kennel is a must and not a plastic one. You need metal and large enough for him to stand up and turn around in. If he can't, it's too small. Your trainer will help to to teach him to go inside and not be crazy when in there.

You must be a strong leader for a GSD. He is not your baby. You can love him to pieces but he has to know where he stands in the pack. Right now he is standing in front of you.

Not to insult you but not all people are GSD owner people. If you and a trainer cannot get him under control you thought think carefully about keeping him or rehoming him. Breeding is very important with a GSD and many backyard breeders or puppy mills just create puppies without any knowledge what traits they are giving the dog.

I do wish you luck. I would be very happy if you would come back to us through your post and tell us your progression and how the dog is now. I am sure you are not the only one that has needed to turn to a good trainer. Your experience could be of great help to others.

Please be aware, if you dog would have done that to another person and not you, he would have been put down with no option.


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## Mpb5162

Two issues. Your GSD needs to understand first, you are the leader of the pack. It would seem he missed that lesson at a very early age. Second, placing your hand, your body, your head over the top of the dog’s head and neck is taken as a sign of aggression. He was probably protecting himself. I agree with many of the posts here, you need to find a good trainer for both you and the pup.


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## Jchrest

My rescue GSD has a shady past, shady genetics, and was used to pump out puppies every time she went into heat. No one could handle her when she was about 2-3, so they gave her to some 18yr old girl who breeds shady pups herself. Low and behold, she couldn’t handle her either after she dropped a litter. I took her in, and she was aggressive. Tried attacking me on a daily basis for the first 2 weeks. I came here looking for advice, and heard a lot of “give her up” and “put her down.” I’m sure I got in a few arguments with Chip over her. She was genetically broken, no one could train her, etc. I’m glad I have a bolt of stubbornness in me, and his arguments made me stronger in working to get her rehabilitated. She has worked through many of her issues, and work around some of them. I had to find that balance. She will NOT allow anyone into our home without acting aggressively, so when we know people are coming over, she goes in her room. Once the people are already in the house, she’s perfectly fine with them. I learned there are things that aren’t acceptable (lunging and trying to attack anyone near that she doesn’t know), eating off the counters (she was starved prior to me getting her), snapping half your hand off when offering a treat. I could go on and on, my point is, training AND management of traits (either genetic, or caused by her previous environment) that cannot be trained away go a long way. I still have her, and in all the years I did, she bit one person. Twice. That person was arrested shortly after I moved for serial rape, and the death of 1 teenaged girl. Take what you will away from that. 

As for herding, I have to disagree with chip again. My poorly bred and poorly raised GSD herds like there is no tomorrow. Whether it be children, chickens, pigs, goats, or sheep. She instinctively knows what areas to nip at, and exactly how much pressure she can apply. We let her herd the animals, and nothing but joy shows through. We lock her up when the children outside as a precaution. She will run after them and nip their ankles, and won’t stop until the are all in a circle she can maneuver around. She’s been “trained out” of herding children, but it’s not something I would ever trust 100%, so we manage her in that situation instead so there is no setup for failure. 

She’s now declining in health very quickly, and it’s heartbreaking, but I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. She became a very loving and obedient companion once I got her through her fear aggression. She is amazing, and taught me more about myself than about her breed. 

OP, an incident like you described is pretty scary. For both you and your GSD. You just need to sit yourself down, ask how much time, money, and muscle you can put into training, and whether that is something you can afford (on all fronts, not just monetarily). If you can’t, it’s a happier life for both of you if you can put him in the hands of someone who can. A fearful dog is an unhappy dog, and an unpredictable one at that. Don’t let senior members on here bully you into thinking euthanasia is the only option. Like others have said, get a full vet workup, a great training, and have a come to Jesus talk with yourself to make sure you can and will follow through with the training at home, and make sure you both are getting a great quality of life in the end. I wish you luck, it’s a long and hard road, and emotional as ****.


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## techinstructor

Excellent discussion here and excellent suggestions for this owner. I would just add, that in working with dogs that display aggression one must learn to read the dog's body language. They will communicate what they are feeling and planning to do, but they do so in their own way. I've had four GSDs and two of the four have bitten me. I've learned through experience not to back a dog into a corner. That in no way means that I am permissive; it just means that if the situation calls for it, a different tact must be employed. One of my shepherds, that will bite, hates to be reprimanded verbally. She knows if I'm going to fuss at her and if I were to grab her collar at such time, it could provoke her to snap. I suspect it was something like this that lead to the bite in the OP. I do think this dog can be trained and this owner can learn how to read the dog better so as to avoid such situations in the future.


Richie I would highly suggest you read this Susan Garrett blog and watch the video on Dog Body Language. It could be very helpful to you going forward.

https://susangarrettdogagility.com/2018/06/body-language-fear-and-aggression/


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## Gowacky

My GSD is 15 weeks old and was never socialized. I’ve had him home now for 4 days. He will eat from my hand treats but will not let me touch him. I can trap him and put a collar and a leash on him. I would like to take him outside. This action of trapping him and putting on the collar will be traumatic for him. Should I do it anyway or should I just give him more time without any pressure ?


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## Jchrest

Hi @Gowacky, you should probably start your own thread under puppy training, you’ll get more responses than posting on someone’s else thread. Just a friendly tip!


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