# Independent vs. pack-oriented pup



## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

I would like to get peoples thoughts as to how much independence is good/bad when choosing a working puppy (for sport or PPD)? Do you prefer a more pack-oriented pup or more independent pup (assuming similar confidence) and why?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Personally I prefer a more pack oriented dog. They tend to make more compliant obedience dogs. But after having a SA dog- I also don't love a super clingy dog either.  So somewhere in the middle. I like a pup that is easily attracted to people but will also go find his own thing to do if you ignore him.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

Does the independent pup tend to become more "serious" as an adult?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

TechieDog said:


> Does the independent pup tend to become more "serious" as an adult?


In my experience with 2 dogs, yes. My male was highly independent as a pup, and is all business as an adult. He also doesn't really play with other dogs


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

I have a 4 month old, Dos Equis, that I will be using as a working dog in numerous venues. I watched this litter mature from week 1 with Robin and Carlos Huerta because it was very important that I find the right temperament for my needs (this dog will be the epitome of utilitarian).

I chose the most independent puppy. 

Here are my reasons:

* We have German Shepherds. Whether they are the most independent or the neediest of dogs, they WILL bond with and want to work for their handler, whether we like it or not. My pup LOVES to work for/with me. 

* I have found that independent dogs have a "take on the world" aspect to their temperament. I want my dog to be able to "think" for himself and go "gung-ho" into any situation without having to rely on me to "make it okay". 

*Here is my disclaimer:* This isn't a blanket statement and isn't necessarily true for every "independent" dog. Also, I am an experienced handler/trainer and know how to counter the downsides to an independent dog...and there are a few (especially when they are young). 

I agree with JKlatsky, a "happy medium" will be most people's ideal as far as having a trainable dog.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Hillary_Plog said:


> I have a 4 month old, Dos Equis, that I will be using as a working dog in numerous venues. I watched this litter mature from week 1 with Robin and Carlos Huerta because it was very important that I find the right temperament for my needs (this dog will be the epitome of utilitarian).
> 
> I chose the most independent puppy.
> 
> ...


I can second that my highly independent pup is much more of a methodical thinker than my female. She certainly isn't stupid, but she leans more on me for approval and guidance. Everything my male does is deliberate and not accidental


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

TechieDog said:


> Does the independent pup tend to become more "serious" as an adult?


I say there are too many factors that play into this to say for sure. I think you can get an equal amount of examples for yes & no.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Hillary_Plog said:


> * We have German Shepherds. Whether they are the most independent or the neediest of dogs, they WILL bond with and want to work for their handler, whether we like it or not. My pup LOVES to work for/with me.
> 
> * I have found that independent dogs have a "take on the world" aspect to their temperament. I want my dog to be able to "think" for himself and go "gung-ho" into any situation without having to rely on me to "make it okay".


I think on your first point that can be true but it all depends on the dog, breeding and other factors. I lean a little more in the opposite direction. IMO the more independent rhey are, the less they are willing to work for the handler but rather they work to please themselves.

If they are independent they do things that please them and not really to please the handler. This can be a pain when it comes to training. It is a lot easier to work with a train a dog that works to please you. When you have a independent dog that works to please itself, he works on his schedule and you gotta have what he feels he wants as a reward and when he's done...he's done...lol Again its all about what personality you prefer.

I think what you want more than anything is confidence. Yes you want drive and all that stuff but confidence is the main factor. That will separate it from the others.

For sport and especially PP, you want confidence. Be careful if you get a super confident & independent dog....as they may challenge you from time to time.


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

Ace952 said:


> I think on your first point that can be true but it all depends on the dog, breeding and other factors. I lean a little more in the opposite direction. IMO the more independent rhey are, the less they are willing to work for the handler but rather they work to please themselves.
> 
> If they are independent they do things that please them and not really to please the handler. This can be a pain when it comes to training. It is a lot easier to work with a train a dog that works to please you. When you have a independent dog that works to please itself, he works on his schedule and you gotta have what he feels he wants as a reward and when he's done...he's done...lol Again its all about what personality you prefer.
> 
> ...


Of course it depends on other factors, which is why I wrote my disclaimer saying that it isn't a blanket statement, and isn't the case with every dog.

I do have to say though, that if you have an "independent" GSD they may challenge you, but they are still working for "you"...as that is what they are designed by genetics to do. An independent GSD looks very different from an independent English Bulldog or Bull Terrier, who truly do have their own agenda and are a "true" independent dog/breed.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I know you put the disclaimer out there, just giving my view on it.

Ahhh...good ol genetics. Right there is the wild card and depends on the genetic makeup of the dog and the dogs in the pedigree. So important to know. I personally dont every GSD who is independent will work for you. He will work for you IF you have something he wants as the reward. This is opposed to the dog that works to make you happy as he/she only wants a "good boy/girl" and pat on the head. I feel for the independent dog, that high pitch voice of happiness & pat on the head isn't enough as that isn't what they want.


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

Ace952 said:


> I know you put the disclaimer out there, just giving my view on it.
> 
> Ahhh...good ol genetics. Right there is the wild card and depends on the genetic makeup of the dog and the dogs in the pedigree. So important to know. I personally dont every GSD who is independent will work for you. He will work for you IF you have something he wants as the reward. This is opposed to the dog that works to make you happy as he/she only wants a "good boy/girl" and pat on the head. I feel for the independent dog, that high pitch voice of happiness & pat on the head isn't enough as that isn't what they want.


Actually, IMHO, I feel you are comparing apples to oranges. When you train a dog to "work" for you, whether it is doing a Schutzhund obedience routine, a task as a service dog or simply lying down when you say "down", they are "working for you", how you reward/motivate them to "work" for you again and again and again is based on 1. their raw drive to just plain "work" (which plays into pedigree, lines, etc.) and 2. how you rewarded/motivated them ("good boy" and a pat on the head, food, toy, etc.)

Each dog has their own system for motivation, where as a pat on the head may be good enough for a casual sit every now and then (low value) but need to play tug (high value) after doing a flat retrieve. It doesn't matter whether the dog is independent or pack driven (OP's word), they are all motivated by different things. 

Example: I recently trained a VERY "pack driven", clingy yellow lab as a mobility service dog. He could CARE LESS about my high-pitched, "good boy" and a pat on the head...and he is a goobery, sap of a dog. He was motivated by toys first and food second. 

I get that you are saying that a less independent dog will be MORE inclined to work for JUST a pat on the head and a "good boy" but that isn't how most people exclusively train their dogs anyway (especially if they are in a competitive venue). 

Regardless of whether we completely agree, this a a GREAT discussion for the OP to take into consideration!  Thanks for your input!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have a very independant female and a more pack oriented male. I prefer the latter.
He is much easier to work with and can work independantly so I say somewhere in the middle. 

The independant dog is strictly out for herself and if she finds something more exciting than what I want her to do then I must either up the ante or apply compulsion and sometimes compulsion trumps. It is so nice having a dog that has the requisite drives and wants to please (the male)

Oh my dog is for cadaver work, not sport of PPD so we work long hours in an uncontrolled environment with many distractions. I may take the more independant dog for sport.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

Yes, thanks to all of you. I have not responded mainly because I am really thinking about it all! I really appreciate the points of view.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

The reason I posted this is that I currently have a deposit on a litter for male pup. The Sire is a competition dog as is the the dam.
Currrently (stress currently), it looks like there are two pups that will be candidates for me. Both are confident and show good drive. One is showing a little independence though, wandering off away from the leader, while the other is much more pack-driven and very affecionate. The more pack-driven pup is also taking longer to crate train (cries the most at night when crated).
The pack-driven pup happens to be my original color choice too (not at all important now though). But for some reason I lean towards the slightly independent pup. Of course, the breeder may have her own thoughts on which one she wants to offer me. 

I have several weeks before the pups will be ready to go as they are being held back a little longer to evaluate them. So it may all change in a few days but it got me thinking more about the potential differences between the pups down the road. Again, appreciate the feedback.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Hillary...you make a good point. I certainly see where you are coming from.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JKlatsky said:


> I like a pup that is easily attracted to people but will also go find his own thing to do if you ignore him.


That's my ideal too, I want a very social people-oriented dog. I know many people prefer a more aloof temperament and that it's more "correct" for the breed, but I think you can have a social dog that still has good working drives. 

If I had to pick between a VERY pack oriented dog and a VERY independent dog, I'd choose pack oriented, no contest. But it is nice to have a dog that is capable of entertaining themselves. Even my super pack oriented dog Keefer, whose life mission is apparently following me around and keeping an eye on me (just in case I might call him over for some love! :wub doesn't have any separation anxiety issues, he just likes to be within view of me when I'm around.

Halo is more independent, but we still have to keep an eye on her because often doing her own thing means finding something to get into, lol!


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I think too much goes into "breed standard" at times. I think you got to have the right temperament that works for you and your household and your daily life.

I agree with you Cassidy's Mom as I prefer pack oriented as well. I will say independent dogs are great too. No one is better than the other as it is all personal preference.

I have a 10 month old that is independent and a 2-1/2 yr old that isn't. My 10 month old is too independent for my tastes as he only cares to be around me when it suits him otherwise he is off doing his own thing. My 2-1/2 yr old stays around me but will stay with me 24/7 if I call him. If I use the bathroom he is outside the bathroom door. If I take a shower, he is on the rug waiting on me. I actually like that and don't mind. He still has his times where he goes off but if I call his name he comes running at 100 mph.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Our 3 1/2 yo male GSD is a mixture. He is not a "clingy" dog but really likes to know where his people are and will run back and forth to keep us both in view when we are in the backyard and working seperatly.


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