# Treating symptoms and not the disease



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Approaching training as fixing individual problems as opposed to fixing the cause of those problems. Thoughts?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Depends on what you mean by "cause". My dog is not perfect and there are things about his temperament and how he works that just are the way they are due to genetics. I can't really fix the cause because that would mean throwing in the towel (and there's way more I like and enjoy than don't like). These aspects of temperament, I train "around" as best I can but it is what it is. I guess in that sense I'm trying to patch individual problems (or some things I just let slide) rather than address the root cause. Now there are other problems that are not genetic but problems we have created and with *those* problems I prefer to address the root cause before picking the exercises/behaviors apart.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Now there are other problems that are not genetic but problems we have created and with *those* problems I prefer to address the root cause before picking the exercises/behaviors apart.


Can you expand upon this?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well this is a bit like psychoanalysis . 
There used to be a "dog psychiatrist" on a local radio program . Yeah he was legit , in that he was a papered behaviourist from a leading university with a veterinary program .
He would field questions about dogs being frightened of thunder storms and formulate theories about why this could be possible -- then give advice to join the dog in the closet to provide security . 
Oh brother .
Deal in the present , as dogs do . 
You have to correct the problem . You can't analize that the dog is biting because when he was a pup he got scared by some big man -- you stop him from biting NOW , or running away NOW and make the new experience okay and profitable for the dog , which may mean as much or little as removing tension by direction to an appropriate response , and eventually snuffing out the old response.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

exactly ! basic temperament . This Dr never attributed behaviour to something , nerve base , that the dog was born with . It seemed as all were just clean clear slates and whatever the dog became was the result of the owner input. You hear that when there are shows based on some local "dog bite" incident and the public phones in , poor innocent dog (or breed) it was because the dog was poorly treated or the owners trained it to be mean .
No , sometimes the dog is just unstable . 

Carmen


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Deal in the present , as dogs do .
> You have to correct the problem .
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Of course, but you don't think that dogs have reasons for what they do? Do you truly believe that training issues are purely mechanical and not related to the dog's state of mind?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have no idea where this idea comes from . Of course they have reason's for what they do , including genetics and basic temperament . You deal with the situation that is at hand , with good timing , and with a positive approach to help the animal through its problem .
Not mechanical at all , organic and fluid yes . 
Actually Patricia McConnell's book "the Other End of the Leash - why we do what we do around dogs" is a good read. 

Carmen


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Actually, I am not familier with Patricia...never heard of her.

Of course you deal with the issue at hand, but to me the best way to do this is to understand why this is now an issue. Usually, in obedience, it boils down to the dog lacks either motivation or pressure. If one is to remedy this basic state of mind, the rest tends to fall into place.
However, I watch many people train and they approach problems with an eye to fixing that individual problem, not fixing what is causing that problem.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

is this an example of what you were trying to ask about.

your dog is not crated . he is a young pup in the exploratory phase . when you come home the kitchen is a mess because he has gone into the garbage and strewn things around . you are upset , fix things , are abrupt with dog . next day same thing . your own emotions ramp up , frustrated , angry . you don't take it out on the dog but you sure are not pleased . dog is sensitive and tries to "be friends" .
the dog is conditioned that when you come home you are unreasonable and goes off to a corner , waiting for you to cool down. you are conditioned to coming home and finding a mess. you have to fix the cause immediately -- constructive confinement while you are away until the dog is mature enough and understands what you expect from him. the cause can be boredom , frustration , anxiety, a good snort in the garbage bin . the dog's avoidance or anxiety that has been conditioned by your coming home ready for a mess is not guilt on the dogs part . you turn things around by addressing the individual problem .


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

OK Carmen, several problems. One, I am not asking a question. Two, you come up with terrible examples. 
A better example is what I often see people doing with grips. Often I see people trying to fix grips very mechanically, Ie. using a bungee, leather covers etc. instead of understanding why there is a problem with the grip and solving the issue by correcting it that way.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh . I guess I was fishing trying to see what you wanted "thoughts" on . 
Carmen


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

No need to fish. I thought the premise was rather clear. If you do not understand the concept that is ok, many do not.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

get acquainted with Patricia McConnell


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think what you're saying is fix what caused the dog
to do what it did. since you can't get into a dogs head
and figure out why they something i think the remedy
is in training and socializing. now if the dog is just off
in a certain behaviour you might not ever be able to fix
the root of the problem. give an example where the problem
is fixed by other means than training and socializing? how
did you fix the root or the cause of the problem?



Zahnburg said:


> Approaching training as fixing individual problems as opposed to fixing the cause of those problems. Thoughts?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I"m a find the root cause and effect person in everything I do. For instance, Jax had a terrible heal and could care less if I was on the other end of the leash. Fix the specific issue? How do you DO that without knowing what is causing it?! Sure, I could have put a prong collar on her and pop her every time she looked away but the root cause was crappy training. So, I found a trainer and went back to the basics. Teach her the reward always comes from (trainer said she's a 'show me the money' dog), teach focus, teach her she could walk with her head up looking at me, teach her position. Fix the root of the problem, recondition, and you'll have a happier dog that wants to work. Force a fix on an independent problem and I think the dog would fall back on the wrong thing to do when under stress.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> how
> did you fix the root or the cause of the problem?


OK, here is a very obvious example. In trial the dog has a good down in motion and recall but does not lock up well on the stand. Now in this example the problem is not really the stand itself, it is just the symptom of the problem. The problem is that you are losing pressure before the stand. Now you have to ask why am I losing the pressure. The most probable cause would be the dog expects the ball after the recall; so to fix the stand you don't let the dog think that he is getting the ball after the recall. The stand is fixed by fixing the root cause, the stand itself was not really the problem at all.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

seems like your back to more training or training differently.



doggiedad said:


> how did you fix the root or the cause of the problem?





Zahnburg said:


> OK, here is a very obvious example. In trial the dog has a good down in motion and recall but does not lock up well on the stand. Now in this example the problem is not really the stand itself, it is just the symptom of the problem. The problem is that you are losing pressure before the stand. Now you have to ask why am I losing the pressure. The most probable cause would be the dog expects the ball after the recall; so to fix the stand you don't let the dog think that he is getting the ball after the recall. The stand is fixed by fixing the root cause, the stand itself was not really the problem at all.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> seems like your back to more training or training differently.


The whole thread is about training, so I do not really understand your point.


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Art - it part of what you are looking for is some people do not look at why, they just fix?

Part of might be the pressure on themselves (or by owners if paid trainers) to get the dog titled, etc. and compete. "Fix" one thing, do not fix the root cause and you will see leakage in another area or phase. Saw some great examples the other weekend.

It is a balancing act.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Zahnburg said:


> Can you expand upon this?


A while back my dog was acting cautious on the track, not outright quitting but definitely showing some conflict. Was it because he's a bad tracker or genetically doesn't have the drive to track with more purpose? Nope. I was really getting on him in obedience and that pressure was showing elsewhere. So instead of picking apart his *tracking*, I changed how we were doing obedience and voila! tracking returned to the normal, purposeful pace and behavior.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Zahnburg said:


> A better example is what I often see people doing with grips. Often I see people trying to fix grips very mechanically, Ie. using a bungee, leather covers etc. instead of understanding why there is a problem with the grip and solving the issue by correcting it that way.


Good example. I think this example can go both ways. It seems a dog that *should* genetically have a strong, calm, and full bite that isn't show this is probably having some conflict caused by something other than the pure mechanics of biting. But not all dogs are going to have the same "quality" of biting (for lack of a better work). One of my dogs always has a great bite, even when we are putting a lot of pressure on him (not even just in bitework but obedience, you name it) I tend to gauge if that pressure is *too* much depending on how he bites in protection because above all else he wants to bite, the type of dog that can load up in pressure but feel security and release in the biting. But my other dog has never been that way about biting and this is just genetic. I don't obsess over his grip because it's a waste of my time. The things he does well are never ever shifting in the grip (even if the grip is not absolutely full) and always showing fight. I can't fix the actual bite/grip no matter whether I approach it from working the mechanics or try to find some other root cause because all roads lead back to the same conclusion... the genetics.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm generally not one to add a lot to a "theory of training" discussion such as this. But I think one important thing to remember is (at least in my opinion) that there aren't a whole lot of people out there who can correctly diagnose what the "cause" of the problem is....

And I include myself in this category. Not to say that there are not undesirable behaviors that I am I able to diagnose the cause. But generally I KNOW when there is an issue...I can even come up with a plan to put a bandaid on it (fix the behavior), but I am certainly not someone who can watch something happen and know what the root of the issue is.

I think that a lot of people convince themselves they know what it is (having witnessed a myraid of "excuses" come from peoples' mouths)...and quite often these "excuses" are ones being repeated by a "trainer" who told them so.

Luckily, my own ignorance is not totally detrimental since I pay people good money to tell me when I'm spewing a load of poo.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I heard this at training today 
Q~"why is she doing this?"
A~"because she wants the ball" 

sometimes it's pretty simple....


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lies: Genetics are genetics, one can only do so much with a dog that is not suited for the sport. However, if one can get the less suited dog to give 100% he will often score as well or better than a much better dog who is only giving 70%. 

Justine: I believe you can add more to a discussion than what you think. I don't know that people are unable to diagnose the cause of a problem, rather I tend to believe that many simply do not look at the problem in that way. 

Jane: Dogs are pretty simple creatures, and their reasons are simple and straight forward. Many folks just have a problem seeing simple and straight-forward.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Zahnburg said:


> Lies: Genetics are genetics, one can only do so much with a dog that is not suited for the sport. However, if one can get the less suited dog to give 100% he will often score as well or better than a much better dog who is only giving 70%.


Yep, and I also think that whether the dog's issue is genetic or created through training or any combination... the handler's priorities factor in big time as far as how the issue is addressed or whether it is addressed at all. For example, when doing retrieves I place a high value on the dog going out and coming back the same speed, the dog not touching the jump, and above all else the dog NOT chewing. I value a firm, calm hold with clean out (but not early out - I like to hold the dumbbell on the sides and have the dog remain holding until told to out). Other people seem to place much more emphasis on overall speed and have chewing (I'm not saying these things go hand in hand). In trial I lost a point because the judge wanted more speed, but I was perfectly happy with my dog's performance because he was consistent, didn't touch the jump, and all the holds/outs were perfect as far as how I like them to be. If I was a competitor, I'd address the speed issue, but I don't see myself as a competitor with this particular dog. I see this as a training issue, not a genetic problem, but in this case it's just not something I care to address at this time. I think one's commitment to the sport as a competitor definitely influences how and which issues are addressed in training.

My other dog has this funny thing going on that we are trying to figure out. He's young and just starting to learn his H&B. When he barks he is square to the helper (in front and centered) but the dog himself is sideways, if that makes sense? I was joking that maybe he's blind in his left eye. I do want to be competitive with this dog so I'm trying to figure out where this issue comes from and how it can be fixed, whether it is immaturity, just needing more work on the mechanics of H&B, sensitivity to me or something else, or.....


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

My dog hops like a kangaroo in heeling when he is too free. Once the pressure is dialed in just right on that dog, his hopping turns into prancing. So this tells us that the hopping is not a "technique" issue to be fixed in isolation ("Say NO when he hops", "Hold the leash down so he can't jump up", "Reward low instead of high", etc.) Rather, it's a "state of mind" issue. How grounded he stays in heeling tell us where his mind is on that day.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

"I lost a point because the Judge wanted more speed"....what is the "root" cause of that point deduction???? Certainly not genetics!!! Maybe Judging?????...I don't know ....Sch in its intended form didnot require complete full grips ad nausem or sprinters speed to receive "full points". Execution of task was more important than speed and view. The interaction between the decoy and the dog determined the score. The more specialized training we need to get to created execution criteria, the farther the breed will go into the Poo.....Just my opinion. Some will understand what I say, others will remain at the alter.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Cliff I agree but at the same time, it has become a sport and every judge has their own criteria where they seem to sharpen the pencil. Our judge was very friendly and fair. He made it clear to each person what aspects he emphasizes. I guess that is the risk we take when entering a trial. If it bothered me so much, I am not forced to enter the trial. Whether or not I agree with how the sport is judged doesn't really matter. I still emphasize the things that are important to *me* in training and I won't risk causing conflict in those areas just to eek out a few more points for things I just don't care about.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Almost all problems are caused from the title of this thread. As for the example about grips. Huge numbers of people training in SchH feel like they have to "work the grip". That should never be necessary if the helper raises drive, ( and I mean all the necessary drives for protection work), to the right level BEFORE the dog is allowed to bite. If the dog is at the right drive level, everything works. The dog will fight when threatened, re-grip to a full grip if he somehow doesn't get a full one, actively try to stop the helper etc.
Most of the time, I see people giving grips when the dog is not in drive and then trying to fix things once the dog is biting. IME, that does not work. Most get the dog on the grip and try to get the dog to pull by hitting the sleeve with the stick, stinging the legs with the whip string, etc. Again, if the dog was in drive in the first place, none of that would be needed. I think overall, most helpers in SchH are completely unaware of when a dog is in drive or not and when that bite should be offered. They make it all too easy, think they have to "reward" behaviors, etc. Biggest problem I deal with when trying to show people how to do helper work is getting the helper to bring the dog to the right drive level. Most do not have the personality to bring up the right drive, others are lazy and the rest just can't read dogs. One phenomenon I have noticed is this....when I put the sleeve on, my personality changes. I have taught myself that over the years. I am suddenly someone who is in character and looks a little dangerous to the dog. Not as much in my body movements, ( although that is part of it), but in what I am "thinking". What I have noticed with most SchH helpers is when they put the sleeve on, they get more friendly. Because of this, whenever I want my dog to see a more serious helper, I have to tell the helper to not have the sleeve on. For years, I tried to get helpers to have that attitude with the sleeve on but so few could do it, I now tell them to leave the darn thing on the ground. Somehow, they do better without that sleeve on and no, it is not because the dog is so attracted to it, it is because of the change in the helpers themselves. They work the dog like the sleeve is a toy vs something to protect their arm from a bite. 
It is getting more and more difficult to find anyone who can really do protection work because of the mentality that now exists in SchH. The idea about "prey work", (which in reality, the way most do it, is not prey work but playing with the dog), is what people are taught. Very few seem to understand the other side of it or how to kind of weave prey and defense together in the dog. When asked to do it, they try to put power INTO the dog, ( most use pain to try to do that), vs being able to bring it out and then you start to see the symptoms of that in the dog. Again, everything is about the mental state of the dog. Much of the time it is the handler's behavior that changes the dog's state of mind, other times it is the helper but it is always about that.

Lies, I would guess your pup is not at the right drive level. I had a dog do this and when worked in drive, it went away.


----------



## David Feliciano (Dec 1, 2011)

HOly sweeping generalizations batman


----------

