# Puppy Temperament



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

What age can a puppy's temperament characteristics show?
Also, how old before you have a really good idea of temperament and nerve?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

you start to see it when they are nursing LOL the more dominant, food driven ones push the others away to get the best nursing positions....by 6 weeks, you should have some basic understanding of the ranking of the pups for dominance, food drive and prey drive...also possessiveness - ie the pup that growls at the others while straddling the food dish for example....prey drive with a flirt pole, sound recactivity....lots and lots of little behaviors are apparent and indicate character very early on

Lee


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks: 

So, if you have a litter and you know that some buyers want pups for schutzhund or some type of sport and others family companion. Then can you place them fairly accurately at 8 weeks?

Also how do you or others feel about the breeder picking vs the buyer.

I personally would rather the breeder pick after receiving input but I'm curious about this.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

wolfstraum said:


> you start to see it when they are nursing LOL the more dominant, food driven ones push the others away to get the best nursing positions....by 6 weeks, you should have some basic understanding of the ranking of the pups for dominance, food drive and prey drive...also possessiveness - ie the pup that growls at the others while straddling the food dish for example....prey drive with a flirt pole, sound recactivity....lots and lots of little behaviors are apparent and indicate character very early on
> 
> Lee


Very well said. A pup really telegraphs what he/she will grow up to be (to those that can read it).


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Thanks:
> 
> So, if you have a litter and you know that some buyers want pups for schutzhund or some type of sport and others family companion. Then can you place them fairly accurately at 8 weeks?
> 
> ...


I hope someone will address this.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pups that I select for service are picked (from my litters) at around 8 weeks. You see active aggression early with resource guarding. You can see instinctive tracking , hunt . You see the temperament first encounters with something. Pop them in the van in a crate , take them out to "Mike's" -- first ride, first away from home base and they behave as if it is all old hat. 
Introduce them to stairs. Little female "Reve" at 7 weeks pointed her nose up and followed it without a peep 12 steps plus landing , dark . She got out of her whelping room and the next thing I know there she is coming in to the family room happy to see us.
Same thing going downstairs . One of the males has to take a flying leap from the 3rd step down. He is very bold -- 
Some lines such as those that were very recent to U litter Kirschental took a long time to mature . Everything was there to see but not on full stream. 
Even Fritz Biehler and Glenn Bennett (name from the past ) who had Buck v d Pfalz (article GS Quarterly plus phone conversations) spoke of slow maturing , don't push them, then one day it is like a new dog .
One of the pain in the butts with the U Kirschental is that it the dog did not come into his maximum potential till they were around 3 years of age. 
Same with DDR dogs, some you just leave , and then work after when they are mature. 
Dogs can be ruined if they are fit into a format or agenda that is rigid by calendar .
This is NOT to say that they are lacking , meaning a deficit or negative , just that the "volume" is not on full blast.
Herding dogs traditionally had a long apprenticeship often not working till they were around 3 years , which is what was suggested in the article interview of Biehler . 

You have to have a feel for the animals

how's that
Carmen


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

It's good as far as it went.
Lets say you have a litter of seven and ten people who want pups.
Out of those ten people with different interests, from schutzhund to tracking and SAR, plus family companion how do you pick which pups go to who by 8 weeks? Common time for pups to go. What if buyers want a say?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

"The child is the father of the man"
so I guess
The pup is the father of the dog.
Ever hear of Lecky's theory of self-consistency?
Could very well apply to dogs.
The other thing is nature vs. nurture. With nurture you 
can make the most of what nature provided.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jack's Dad , the rest comes from familiarity with your lines. Familiarity with the tasks . Experience . x 's 3 .
no short cuts 
Carmen


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I think the OP was going by the pup, not knowing the lines.
But I don't speak for him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

right, okay then, go to a breeder that knows their stock very well and breeds for what you are looking for. They should have some sort of track record , then trust their judgement . A litter should be fairly similar , so the gamble is not great - better to select someone who has a litter geared to what you are looking for, than try to find "that one" within a litter that may or may not have it , finding the diamond in the coal .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not see growling over the food dishes, or sound sensitivity. I have actually tested for sound sensitivity at seven weeks, and haven't had that issue yet. 

Dominance is a little tough because they take turns being on the top and being on the bottom in the same day. But there are definite things you can gage, throughout their first eight weeks. Intelligence, memory, who has the drive to keep going for the toy or bottle, who puts their nose to the ground and follows their dam's track before them. That is kind of neat to see. You can read an awful lot about them. But you cannot guaranty the dog's hips, elbows, and it is still a lot more realistic to have success if you get a working dog as a young adult than as a puppy. 

People do like a choice though. So what I do whenever possible is I take the two puppies that best match what the owner is looking for and give them as much information as I have marked about them, and then let them decide between the two or sometimes, if the buyer is experienced, I will show more of them.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> I think the OP was going by the pup, not knowing the lines.
> But I don't speak for him.



Yes. 

I'm still working on your other post PaddyD. I'm hoping it won't keep me awake tonight.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Yes.
> 
> I'm still working on your other post PaddyD. I'm hoping it won't keep me awake tonight.


My wife's name is Andy (Andria). My mental machinations keep her scratching
her head too. She is St. Andria to me.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My top priority is a good home for the pup - someone who will love him, and care for his needs properly. If it is a working home - all the better! But I won't put a pup in a home where the philosophy of raising and training is so much different than my own. I will not sell a pup to live in a kennel it's whole life or to be used as a puppy machine. 

Who gets pups depends on how the relationship with the prospective owner develops, what their goals are and if I feel they are a good match with a pup. I have turned alot of people down, often referring them to other litters where I think they will find a breeder or puppy compatible with their goals or style. 

I may let a buyer pick between 2 pups - but I do not let people poke prod or overstress babies....normal 'tests' to demonstrate stability and confidence yes, but by the time they are ready to go, I am pretty sure I have placed them properly. If I get a gut feeling that a buyer is not right for the pup, they do not get the pup....twice I was uncertain, and both times I was correct - one buyer insisted on a pup that I did not feel would fit her personality because she liked the photo of her at 6 weeks...I even have her notes she took on the phone saying that 'x' was more suitable for her than 'y'...but she WANTED 'y'. A week before Christmas, with 3 days notice, owner informed me what flight the "Y" was being returned on - Poor lost 'y' - spayed, titled, used to sleeping on owner's bed for 3 years! Owner had a pup coming from a high profile broker/breeder who 'would take her to Nationals' & owners other half put foot down at another dog - never thinking that Y was 'disposable'!!!......LOL  Owner tap danced about the return, would not even admit that another dog was on it's way.....Facebook is a wonderful tool sometimes!!!

I juggle placements up to the day they leave....which is why registered names are not always able to be what buyer wants....I send in the whole litter at a few weeks old, and then match them to pups when tatooing them...

Lee


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks all. I think I'm starting to understand the process better.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

but as they learn to write the message changes.



Packen said:


> Very well said. A pup really telegraphs what he/she will grow up to be (to those that can read it).


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> These both seem to be the same question.
> I am guessing the answer is a number... like 12 weeks (for example).


I'm not sure about that. I think somewhere Carmen mentioned holding one out for some pursuits that may take awhile. Like maybe K9. Seems like you would have to really know your stuff to figure that out.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm not sure about that. I think somewhere Carmen mentioned holding one out for some pursuits that may take awhile. Like maybe K9. Seems like you would have to really know your stuff to figure that out.


I was kinda kidding and over-simplifying. You seemed to be asking for 
specifics and getting everything else not pertaining to the question.
JMHO.
I will move along....


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

We let our breeder pick our pup as this is our first dog. She knew from the get go which pup had a higher drive. She did an excellent job picking ours. Isis is so calm and laid back. And hasn't chewed our furniture apart......yet :crazy:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think the pup you see at 6 weeks, 7 weeks,
8 weeks, 9 weeks, 10 weeks isn't the same
pup at 2 months, 3 months, 4 months and so on.

my last 2 GSD's i picked. when i say i picked
i told the breeder i wanted pick of the litter
so the breeder wasn't picking a puppy for me
based on nerves or temperment or my character.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> i think the pup you see at 6 weeks, 7 weeks,
> 8 weeks, 9 weeks, 10 weeks isn't the same
> pup at 2 months, 3 months, 4 months and so on.
> 
> ...


pick of the litter means that YOU pick the pup before
anyone else does. If the breeder picks it then
it is the pick of the breeder.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I hate the term "pick" - it goes back to when a pup was the stud fee, and the stud owner got to pick his pup first....not common today with the increase in costs of breeding...

What is "pick" for me, is not "pick" for every buyer...my flyball competitior buyer does not want or need the same pup as the person looking for a narcotics dog or a high level sport dog! The pup I want to keep for a breeding prospect may not be the best fit for the agility trainer or the family who works long hours and hikes on the weekends....not getting "pick" puppy does not mean anyone is getting a less than good quality puppy!!!!!!!!!

Lee


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> What is "pick" for me, is not "pick" for every buyer...my flyball competitior buyer does not want or need the same pup as the person looking for a narcotics dog or a high level sport dog! The pup I want to keep for a breeding prospect may not be the best fit for the agility trainer or the family who works long hours and hikes on the weekends....not getting "pick" puppy does not mean anyone is getting a less than good quality puppy!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Lee


This is pretty much what I was asking. So at six to eight weeks would you have a pretty good idea who was narcotics material, breeding, or family dog.

I do understand that being a family dog does not make it any less quality.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

doggiedad said:


> but as they learn to write the message changes.


No, if you know how to read it does not change. It is what it is.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Packen said:


> No, if you know how to read it does not change. It is what it is.



Absolutely!!! Genetics will win out every time - a pup with lesser confidence at 6 weeks can be conditioned and titled - but under stress, genetics will tell every time....you can take a dog and get Vs on home field, home helper and look great - take it somewhere else and the cracks will show.......!!!!!!

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Jack's Dad said:


> This is pretty much what I was asking. So at six to eight weeks would you have a pretty good idea who was narcotics material, breeding, or family dog.
> 
> I do understand that being a family dog does not make it any less quality.


For sure - one of the most gorgeous dogs I have ever seen - a double for his grandfather - a V conformation for sure IF he would be titled - super character - is a pet....will never have anything done, will never be bred...........is a pet....sigh....

** oversized photo removed by Admin. Please resize to no larger than 800X600 and repost**

granddaddy










Pet home placement is not an indication of poor quality in my case...

Lee


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks Lee.

I'm slow but I think I finally get it.

Those are beautiful dogs by the way.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

When you test a litter and watch a litter grow you must also know your lines to understand what you are seeing. Puppies show a lot of what they are by 8 weeks so, yes, many breeders have a very good record of picking potential puppies for their buyers. With that in mind, what a breeder chooses at 8 weeks for people is potential. After that it is what the new owner makes of the dog. 

Years ago a friend of mine tested some females. She was a very experienced handler so the breeder gave her the option of several females that could work for her. The female she chose showed a slight delayed reaction to things. If she threw keys it would take this puppy a few seconds to recognize the stimuli and react. She was a great female in other ways, but this bitch was this way her whole life. Another litter her husband chose a male more based on color than on what she recommended. She noticed that this pup got obsessed with trying to get to some snow outside the door of the kennel and couldn't be redirected. Until he died this dog would get obsessed and focused on something (not always a good thing) and he would be very difficult to refocus. I have seen litters with pups that showed nerve issues in strange areas at 7 weeks and their whole lives they still were not easy to trial on strange fields unless they spent a lot of time there. 

Where the breeder's knowledge of their lines comes in is knowing about puppies that may show their true potential a bit later. Drive showing up at 4, 6, 10 months. This can require a bit of a leap of faith on the buyers part.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Jack's Dad said:


> Thanks Lee.
> 
> I'm slow but I think I finally get it.
> 
> Those are beautiful dogs by the way.


Thanks - he was supposed to be shown OB in AKC - but does not look like the owner can .... sure, he'd make a nice sire maybe - but to what??? Good females are not going to breed to a male with no credentials (other than a show rating! Which was done so I could see him, and made the arrangements)....I would use him myself possibly if he had credentials on my imported female pup when she titles...but I can use his soon to be titled brother just as easily, shipping semen from CA...I can't see letting him breed BY puppies just to do it....

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There has been some excellent information, imo, given so far on reading pups as they develop. All I can add,(well i could add a little...lol), seriously; as someone said gentics will trump raising/training/ or environment every time. That's not to say these issues can't have an impact, but a genetically sound pup is a very forgiving being if the other elements are not fantastic. Picking pups does require an understanding of different basic drives and working drives.JMO


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

I think "pick" of the litter is real misleading, because what might be the ideal for one person would not be ideal for the other. The idea of "pick of the litter" bring back dumb memories of being last picked for sports teams in elementary school!

For my next pup I will go with a breeder I trust to pick out a pup for me, when I honestly explain what I am looking for. 

Benny's breeder lets buyers pick their own pups. When I got Benny, at 7 weeks and 5 days there were only two pups not spoken for from a of a litter of 7. Both were adorable and I chose Benny because he seemed to choose me! (I think pups should let breeder choose their owners too)

Found out that Benny was the most pushy pup in the litter! I think most of his littermates were chosen based on color, coat or sex.

I know I got the pup I needed though. Benny has taught me so much and brought me out of my comfort zone! I am learning to be more pushy than him!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Wouldn't you (those with more experience) agree that you really have to go through a discovery process with the pup as they mature to see what they are going to be best suited for as an adult? I understand that you have to make your best guess by 8 weeks old as to who to send the pup home with. To me that doesn't seem like enough time to really get to know who the dog really is and what they are or are not capable of.


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