# I went to first Shutzhund meeting and they recommended a fur saver collar



## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

I would like some more insight and tips as to what types of leads and collars other Shutzhund folks are using.

I purchased a fur saver collar and a Ray Allen 5 foot lead with forged clasp for training. I should receive it in time for our 2nd obedience Shutzhund meet.

Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Also..when you are giving a leash correction are using a fur saver or matingale collar or something totally different? Today I tried out the fur saver while on a walk and it was fantastic as for the last few weeks walks have been becoming more stressful as she is hitting 9 months and she is reacting squirrels, ducks, cars, dogs and the easy lead harness was not easy to control her with.

We went past a jogging woman and I had her heeling walk and then a small dog, gave a tug on the new collar, got her attention put her into a heeling walk past the small dog and it was easy peasy. I just want to be sure that I should be doing these corrections for attention when she is reactive on a fur saver and not a matingale.

Still new..still learning...looking for advice.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Was it a fur saver, or a prong collar? Fur savers are not generally used for corrections for training - they don't give much of a correction - they are used more like a regular flat collar.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Was it a fur saver, or a prong collar? Fur savers are not generally used for corrections for training - they don't give much of a correction - they are used more like a regular flat collar.


Definitely a fur saver. It is like a flat collar with links. I bought it through
Elite k-9 in black. I don't know if this club uses prong collars, I guess I will see more as time goes on.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Fursavers are the collar used for trialing.
For training, I use a prong, flat or both(run a tab on the prong) I never have my fursaver on the live ring, I use it for tracking. It is not a correction type collar as Lucia pointed out.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Fursavers are the collar used for trialing.
> For training, I use a prong, flat or both(run a tab on the prong) I never have my fursaver on the live ring, I use it for tracking. It is not a correction type collar as Lucia pointed out.


I am still learning, what does run a tab on the prong mean for a prong collar?
Should I go ahead and buy a prong collar for Shutzhund obedience and tracking?


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

You should have a prong collar in your dog supplies, as well as a few different length leashes, a couple flat collars, a tracking harness (and long line). I would see what the people at your club have and what works best for them with the training you will be doing. They can explain what they like/dislike about different products, and where to purchase them. You may be able to 'borrow' an item to try out before you actually purchase it from some place to see if you will like it or not.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A tab is a short grab line...I like an 8" with a knot at the end of a gripper. That is usually on the live ring on the prong. 
Then I run a longer line 4' on the flat collar for obedience training. I like a thin short lead for this.

I don't always use a prong for OB though, a flat or the fursaver on the dead ring is fine for Karlo.

When we do protection, a very long strong line on the harness or flat collar. A prong w/ tab is what we use mostly for control work. 

Harnesses or agitation collars can usually be borrowed from other club members during a training session.
I like to have my own gear though, just so size adjustments don't have to take up time(my dog is big!).


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> A tab is a short grab line...I like an 8" with a knot at the end of a gripper. That is usually on the live ring on the prong.
> Then I run a longer line 4' on the flat collar for obedience training. I like a thin short lead for this.
> 
> I don't always use a prong for OB though, a flat or the fursaver on the dead ring is fine for Karlo.
> ...


Thanks..I have sooooooo much to learn for Shutzhund.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

dawnandjr said:


> You should have a prong collar in your dog supplies, as well as a few different length leashes, a couple flat collars, a tracking harness (and long line). I would see what the people at your club have and what works best for them with the training you will be doing. They can explain what they like/dislike about different products, and where to purchase them. You may be able to 'borrow' an item to try out before you actually purchase it from some place to see if you will like it or not.


Yes, I will have to get a prong collar. Hopefully she will not require it's use too often.

Last week I only got to see obedience, hopefully this week I can see protection and search work too. I will definitely take your advice and ask to borrow some equipment and ask for pros and cons.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

We have a lot of gear.  Dont worry, you dont need it all at once. Most people at clubs I've been to are pretty good about letting you borrow until you can get what you need. 

Collars-
Fursavers
Nylon Slip leads
2" heavy leather agitation collar
Agitation Harness
Prong Collars
Dogtra E-collar

Most used is definitely the prong. That males an appearance in all 3 phases with almost all our dogs. But what you need most will depend on the dog you have and what tool they need for learning.

Leashes-
Tabs (usually on the prong collar)
I have leather leashes from 3ft to 8ft
A 33ft Biothane tracking line 
30ft cotton horse lunge line


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## 5shot (Oct 11, 2011)

Why is it that the Fur Saver is used for tracking and not a just a flat leather collar (given that the fur saver is being used like a flat collar)?


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

JKlatsky said:


> We have a lot of gear.  Dont worry, you dont need it all at once. Most people at clubs I've been to are pretty good about letting you borrow until you can get what you need.
> 
> Collars-
> Fursavers
> ...



Thank you so much for putting that list together. I will print it and do some shopping on Elite K9 and Ray Allen. Do you shop on internet for your supplies?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

All the time. Elite K9. For Dog Trainers. Ray Allen is usually more expensive. Ebay is good. I know other people who like Bridgeport. I usually get the cotton long lines from Tractor Supply. Actually in general, feed stores can be good places to check for dog gear. Also went a little nuts when we visited a Mnenonite community by my MILs house. They make leather good for horses and such, but great dog products too!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

5shot said:


> Why is it that the Fur Saver is used for tracking and not a just a flat leather collar (given that the fur saver is being used like a flat collar)?


Probably because it's the one that is used for everything. The dog wears it in all three phases. I don't think it has as much to do with tracking as it does being the standard collar for all dogs, all phases.


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## 5shot (Oct 11, 2011)

You can make a long line in about 3 minutes with a snap and a chunk of rope from Home Depot or a feed/tractor supply house. I made one for $11 with enough rope left over to braid a few tug toys for the pup.


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## 5shot (Oct 11, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Probably because it's the one that is used for everything. The dog wears it in all three phases. I don't think it has as much to do with tracking as it does being the standard collar for all dogs, all phases.


 
Thanks Liesje...sometimes "because that is what we always use" is all that matters


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

5shot said:


> Why is it that the Fur Saver is used for tracking and not a just a flat leather collar (given that the fur saver is being used like a flat collar)?


Because the rules specifically state that in trial, for all phases, the only collar the dog may wear is a large linked chain collar. In other words, a fursaver. No leather, nylon, or training collars like a pinch or martingale allowed. And when attached the leash must be attached to the dead ring, never the live ring.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

5shot said:


> Thanks Liesje...sometimes "because that is what we always use" is all that matters


Yeah, but it really doesn't matter all that much. You have to use a Fursaver for everything else anyway, and I doubt a dog tracks differently on a dead Fursaver than a flat collar. In fact I think the Fursaver might be better as they tend to fit looser. Also when I track I clip my leash opposite the rings on the ends, so the dog doesn't have those rings in his armpit. I think you can use certain harnesses to track in SchH but I'm guessing the dog is still wearing a Fursaver. You always need a collar for control in every phase. A Fursaver is strong and won't break. I've never seen a dog get out of control but you never know, and a lot of flat collars have inferior quality materials like stitched ribbon and plastic clasps.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

JKlatsky said:


> All the time. Elite K9. For Dog Trainers. Ray Allen is usually more expensive. Ebay is good. I know other people who like Bridgeport. I usually get the cotton long lines from Tractor Supply. Actually in general, feed stores can be good places to check for dog gear. Also went a little nuts when we visited a Mnenonite community by my MILs house. They make leather good for horses and such, but great dog products too!


We were going to go to a feed store close to the Shutzhund area , but by the time we left it was getting late so I thought, oh well, I will buy online.

I did notice Ray Allen as being expensive. I did buy the forged metal clasp 5 foot leather lead from them. It should arrive soon.

We were going into petsmart the other day and ran into a k9 guy and he told us that the collars and leads from the big box chain stores just don't cut it with the type of use needed for training. I figure, better to pay a little bit more on the front end then worry about something breaking at the wrong time.

I do want to get a "fancy" collar for going out for Stella from Ella's leads. We take her to dinner with us sometimes at places that are dog friendly with outdoor dining. 

I would imagine the Menonite collars are a work of superb craftsmanship.


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## 5shot (Oct 11, 2011)

Liesje said:


> . and a lot of flat collars have inferior quality materials like stitched ribbon and plastic clasps.


 
I make my own leather stuff, so the quality is always exceptional ...

Fur Saver for Trials...my own stuff for everything else.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Personally, I don't think I could find my old prong collar, haven't used one in over 10 years, nor does my husband or pretty much anyone at our club. I can do all my work with the short link fursaver. Actually, I have done most of my obedience work in a flat buckle collar. We have fursavers on the dogs during bitework as a back up.
There may be times in the future that I may get a prong out, but don't really find a need for it really. 
I dug out the fursaver about 2 weeks ago because the clasp broke on the flat collar I'd been using on Uma. She was a bit stunned by the feel of it and reacted more to the sound than anything, but I never had to use it to make a correction. 

Annette


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

This would be my list of "must have" equipment to start:

33' tracking line
15' line
(I prefer nylon for both of these)
short,lightweight 8 to 10 inch line (made of light string and a small clasp)
leash (I prefer 3' with ring so that it can go around waist)

Large pinch collar
small pinch collar
fur saver

3 large gappay balls with string
tracking articles
tracking flag
clicker

Don't worry about dumbells yet. Some helpers like to work dogs on a harness or flat collar so ask your helper which he prefers. (personally, I do 99.99% of protection work on a doubled pinch and only use a harness or collar for very odd/strange/unusual circumstances) 

I buy most of my equipment from Jim Hill www.hallmarkk9.com

Hope this helps.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

5shot said:


> Fur Saver for Trials...my own stuff for everything else.


If you are training for trials, then in training use the same equipment you would use in trial. Dogs become very accustomed to certain rituals and pieces of equipment being associated with different things. Put the fursaver on the dog when you are training. Even if you also use a different collar and the leash is attached to that, the fursaver is always there and serves as part of that cue of what is going on, and what your expectations of the dog are. When those other collars come off on trial day, that fursaver that the dog is used to being there is still there, and thus the cue is still there as well. If trained always in a different collar, so the dog associates that collar with the cue that it's work time, then you get to trial, take that collar OFF and put another collar that the dog has no association with ON... see the possible confusion here for the dog and problems that could result?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Art! I needed to make my xmas list and now I only need to copy and paste!


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> This would be my list of "must have" equipment to start:
> 
> 33' tracking line
> 15' line
> ...


Yes, it does . I am printing your list as a shopping list and reference too

I guess I will become more familiar over time as to the uses for all these items.

The main guy at the Shutzhund works his dog on a fur saver and that is what he recommended I use. I have walked her the last few days on it and I have to tell you so far I love it over the harness lead.

She is able to get a better idea of what I want from her when walking and it is easier to get her attention with it when we are passing distractions.


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## 5shot (Oct 11, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> If you are training for trials, then in training use the same equipment you would use in trial. Dogs become very accustomed to certain rituals and pieces of equipment being associated with different things. Put the fursaver on the dog when you are training. Even if you also use a different collar and the leash is attached to that, the fursaver is always there and serves as part of that cue of what is going on, and what your expectations of the dog are. When those other collars come off on trial day, that fursaver that the dog is used to being there is still there, and thus the cue is still there as well. If trained always in a different collar, so the dog associates that collar with the cue that it's work time, then you get to trial, take that collar OFF and put another collar that the dog has no association with ON... see the possible confusion here for the dog and problems that could result?


 
Understood...and thanks!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Was it a fur saver, or a prong collar? Fur savers are not generally used for corrections for training - they don't give much of a correction - they are used more like a regular flat collar.


Actually, my "coach" had me drop the electric and prong and work my female only on the fur saver and with my hands and voice. "learn to not depend on crutches" he said


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> This would be my list of "must have" equipment to start:
> 
> 33' tracking line
> 15' line
> ...


And a 1" x ~10", and 1" x 4ft PVC pipes!


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> And a 1" x ~10", and 1" x 4ft PVC pipes!


Ok..I am writing that in on the list that I printed.
Boy...seems like a lot of shopping to do


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> And a 1" x ~10", and 1" x 4ft PVC pipes!


I wrote it in and then scratched my head...what are they used for???


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> Actually, my "coach" had me drop the electric and prong and work my female only on the fur saver and with my hands and voice. "learn to not depend on crutches" he said


Exactly! That is how our club works, as well. We also start out off-leash work on day one.
For you and me, it could just be that Atze puppies are easy to work :laugh:.

Who do you train with, I had a guy call the other day looking for a trainer and he was in South Carolina as I recall. You can PM me if you'd rather.

Annette


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

bocron said:


> Exactly! That is how our club works, as well. We also start out off-leash work on day one.
> For you and me, it could just be that Atze puppies are easy to work :laugh:.
> 
> Who do you train with, I had a guy call the other day looking for a trainer and he was in South Carolina as I recall. You can PM me if you'd rather.
> ...


Nothing is easy with Katya Lol


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Nothing is easy with Katya Lol


The Broward Shutzhund Club in Florida. 

I am very excited to start this even if it is a bit intimidating. It's good to have some new goals and challenges in life.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Stella's Mom said:


> I wrote it in and then scratched my head...what are they used for???


The short one for teaching the hold and retrieve, the long one for dropping treats surgically without bending over, when tracking


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> The short one for teaching the hold and retrieve, the long one for dropping treats surgically without bending over, when tracking


That's brilliant! Love it.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I wouldn't have thought to add the PVC pipe tracking treat dispenser to the standard SchH equipment list for newbies, but indeed those things are wonderful back savers and mine gets a lot of use.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> I wouldn't have thought to add the PVC pipe tracking treat dispenser to the standard SchH equipment list for newbies, but indeed those things are wonderful back savers and mine gets a lot of use.


And cleats, and tracking boots. And a camcorder


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

hunterisgreat said:


> Actually, my "coach" had me drop the electric and prong and work my female only on the fur saver and with my hands and voice. "learn to not depend on crutches" he said


This is how I prefer to train and handle my own dogs as well.

But not all methods work for all people, nor does everyone have coaching that is conducive to all methods, so people have to do what works for not just their dog, but also for them as handlers.

I very much agree it's the ideal, but just don't want terms like "crutch", no matter how accurate at times, to make people feel bad about using different tools to help themselves and their dogs through the learning process.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> This is how I prefer to train and handle my own dogs as well.
> 
> But not all methods work for all people, nor does everyone have coaching that is conducive to all methods, so people have to do what works for not just their dog, but also for them as handlers.
> 
> I very much agree it's the ideal, but just don't want terms like "crutch", no matter how accurate at times, to make people feel bad about using different tools to help themselves and their dogs through the learning process.


Everything in Shutzhund is new for me, so I don't have any idea of what to expect yet.
Looking at your stats in your signature, there is a lot I could learn from you and your dogs.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> This is how I prefer to train and handle my own dogs as well.
> 
> But not all methods work for all people, nor does everyone have coaching that is conducive to all methods, so people have to do what works for not just their dog, but also for them as handlers.
> 
> I very much agree it's the ideal, but just don't want terms like "crutch", no matter how accurate at times, to make people feel bad about using different tools to help themselves and their dogs through the learning process.


Truth be told, I exclusively use electric on my male in protection. Prong or hands make him too angry, make him dirty and take it all out on the helper, and introduce conflict with me. Electric he understands well without making it personal, so we are stuck with that for now


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I very seldom use the pinch collar anymore....but that's primary because with experience you learn that timing is more important than strength.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> i very seldom use the pinch collar anymore....but that's primary because with experience you learn that timing is more important than strength.


bam!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I very seldom use the pinch collar anymore....but that's primary because with experience you learn that timing is more important than strength.


Just because one is old does not mean they have experience


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Who's old????? Some of us started training in the before life so we're still in our twenties:laugh::laugh:


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