# anyone mind reviewing this trainer?



## gvalenti (Feb 3, 2014)

I'm looking to find a trainer to work with us and our newly adopted 3.5 yo GSD. I cam across this guy and am intrigued. He offers a money back guarantee and has nothing but positive reviews. That being said, $600 is steep but if it meant having a more obedient, safe dog that I could really enjoy life more with I'd do it!

Northern Virginia Dog Trainers | Northern Virginia Dog Training

any thoughts?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

link doesn't work


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## gvalenti (Feb 3, 2014)

really? Will try again Northern Virginia Dog Trainers | Northern Virginia Dog Training

If not, and you're up to it, you can google off leash dog training VA


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am not a fan of a basic obedience package consisting of e-collar....all dogs are different and shouldn't be one size fits all.
Personally, I'd pass, because I'd rather be in a club/group situation as the journey of training is always ongoing, not a 6 week course for a well behaved companion.
You can get that basic obedience with engagement/rewards, not ecollar.
$2800 for a two week board and train? No thanks.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

What she said! Off leash obedience can be obtained without using an e collar (Mirror Method for example). And the price is really steep. I'm not a fan of the board/train in general, you'll get much better results from doing it together with your dog. But maybe that's just me


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## gvalenti (Feb 3, 2014)

Yeah i am also not a fan of voard/train so i wasnt going to go that route. But thank you both for your input!! He is very reactive to dogs and im not sure he would do well in a group ywt, so maybe we will start with private training and move to group


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

With the right trainer, this type of training is very effective. It doesn't induce a lot of stress in the dog. It creates a set of rules that are easy for the dog to understand.

I would recommend you go watch some training taking place and observe what the dogs look like during training.

Are the dogs stressed out or having fun? Fun is good!

Are they constantly vocalizing or overtly reacting to the stim? If it is obvious when the dogs are being stimmed, the level is too high.

How do the dogs react to the trainer? Are they happy to engage with them? Are the trainers enjoying working with the dogs and creating an atmosphere that is positive? Things should be upbeat and fun.

What do the kennel facilities look like? Clean, happy dogs with the opportunity to exercise a couple times a day other than training?

What type of training does the owner receive? You need to understand how to effectively communicate with the dog, and how to maintain your training. If you are going to be doing maintenance training with the e-collar, you need to have enough training that you understand how to do that.


It bothers me when people label e-collar training as some type of shortcut for general obedience. It is fast because the communication is effective. A good trainer with good timing and understanding of these methods can achieve very good obedience in very few training sessions. If the dog is not stressed out, has no negative effects of the training, complies with commands from the owner and has a great time doing it, how is it a bad thing? 

I just don't understand the automatic knee jerk reaction some people have to the e-collar. I see far more compulsive training every day just watching people walking their dogs on flat collars.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

David, I do use ecollar, I'm not against them at all. My comment was about the "basic" obedience package and the use of the ecollar....is it always necessary/one size fits all? I'd rather use enthusiasm and engagement/reward than stim for basic position training.
My comment was not a 'knee-jerk' reaction to the equipment, but the way the descriptions were outlined on the training methods. 
Price is high for most everything in that location, so I'm sure the trainer is competitive in the market.
The 2 hour sessions with the handler to teach the handler is enough? I don't know....I'd rather be involved in every aspect of my dogs training and be trained along with the dog to better understand the reason for the methods used.
One other thing in this situation...the dog is 3.5 yrs old, so has a foundation already,either needing fixing or shaping or possibly a clean slate? So there may be more involved in the training of an adult vs a younger dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Too late to edit above post, but I bet your $600 quote will grow as 4 sessions to train the dog on an ecollar is, IMO not enough, especially not to proof the dog...so double or triple that amount. If a trainer is getting completed goals results in 4 sessions and proofing the dog, then they are a great trainer. 
Let us know if you go this route and how it worked for you(6-8 months later).


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I saw some things in some of the videos that I wasn't a fan of, but I hate to base an opinion off video. See if you can go watch some training. If you like what you see and can afford those prices then do it. 

The e-collar thing doesn't bother me too much. Know of a trainer that teaches everything with an e-collar and even starts with 12-16 week old puppies. Short of them being compliant, you would never know they had one on. It is a very effective tool when used correctly.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> David, I do use ecollar, I'm not against them at all. My comment was about the "basic" obedience package and the use of the ecollar....is it always necessary/one size fits all? I'd rather use enthusiasm and engagement/reward than stim for basic position training.
> My comment was not a 'knee-jerk' reaction to the equipment, but the way the descriptions were outlined on the training methods.
> Price is high for most everything in that location, so I'm sure the trainer is competitive in the market.
> The 2 hour sessions with the handler to teach the handler is enough? I don't know....I'd rather be involved in every aspect of my dogs training and be trained along with the dog to better understand the reason for the methods used.
> One other thing in this situation...the dog is 3.5 yrs old, so has a foundation already,either needing fixing or shaping or possibly a clean slate? So there may be more involved in the training of an adult vs a younger dog.


I apologize if you thought my post was aimed at you. I was speaking in very big generalities, not addressing anyone in particular. I didn't think your reaction was knee jerk.

I have just had several conversations lately about e-collars being the devil. Tools are getting banned all over the world. The wrong people are driving the direction of dog training, not because I use those tools but because they do not train dogs to any level of working ability.

Maybe it was my reaction that was knee jerk LOL


Anyways, I never think one size fits all in training. But the e-collar is infinitely variable, and in a good system, the working level for the dog is established every time the collar goes on.

I certainly don't train all dogs obedience with an e-collar, but for general pet obedience I think it is the quickest route to compliance and understanding of commands. I have used an e-collar on all types of dogs, from reactive to terribly shy. I think the black and white communication that happens with the dog takes pressure off the dog. There is less confusion for the dog to work through. 

So in the case of general pet obedience, where they just want a dog to do a few things and listen very well, I choose to train all dogs with the e-collar. IME, it is the best way to achieve these things in the least amount of time. I don't see this as a shortcut, but rather an effective training method.

These things are all subjective to the trainer and the dog. I have went through the gamut of training methods from Koehler to Klicker and I do what works for me.




Back to this trainer.

This is not a single guy training dogs, it is a company with trainers all over. I would interview the individual trainer you are going to be working with, and go through the steps I listed above at the individual facility your dog will be staying at.

I shot out an email to a friend that knows Nick, and he is a good guy and a good trainer in this person's opinion.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I'd prefer working with a dog as an individual first before I automatically throw any tool on them myself. This company's goal seems to be, to get results fast so they don't plan on screwing around.

Not saying that's good or bad but it wouldn't be my first choice.

Having said that I don't see the E collar as inherently evil. Most of the "tools" that have gotten a bad rap is because of unskilled end users! Clearly that would not (or should not) be the case here.

So it goes back to rather or not the OP adheres to this "Company’s" dog training philosophy.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

To the OP, go out and visit them.. Get a feel for the training and trainers.. Ask lots of questions.. Talk to the clients. That way you can see if they are a good fit for you and your dog..

I'd also go and visit other training facilities in your area to see what kind of training methods they offer.. In the DMV there's a lot to choose from..


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I know absolutely NOTHING about these folks.

I did notice it looks like a franchise thing with many sites (scroll to bottom of about us page) and a statement on the home page - Licensing/Certification opportunity. If you click on that link it looks like you, too, can be a trainer with enough cash and an intense 2.5 week training program, even with no prior experience. That is a red flag to me. 

Agree with the comment about viewing them working, because just like Petsmart trainers, some are actually very good but many don't have a clue.


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## gvalenti (Feb 3, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies! I am confused by his site as to whether or not he offers only boarf and train? Im going to reach out abd see if they will allow me to observe some classes. I absolutely want to be involved in the training of the dog


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I saw this on my fb wall this morning, worth sharing here:
The Naughty Dogge
Your mind is the most powerful dog training tool that you can ever possess. A tool will not give you a relationship with your dog. It can give you a fake feeling of control. But when that tool is gone, so will be what you thought you had (if you have not improved yourself). 

While tools all have their time and place, and are needed, remember that dogs are here to make us better people. They are the mirror image of what you need to work on. If you won't learn the lessons that you are needing, your dog will not become the dog that you want him to become. 

It really is that simple.

Monique Anstee
Victoria, BC
Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee | Dog Training and Dog Obedience Victoria BC


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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

I live in NoVa also and had considered going to this training facility as well. Ultimately I decided against it. I'll give you my two cents but please keep in mind I am pretty inexperienced this being my first GSD and the first dog I have ever trained. 

There are other options besides the board and train, click on "prices" on their site and you can see all the options. I emailed Nick with several questions and he was pretty quick to get back to me. You do have to pay extra to have him personally train your dog as he is more involved in the business aspect.

There were a few things that turned me off about them..the fact that they offer a 100% guarantee made me a bit wary. The over the top advertising made me feel even more uneasy. I posted on this forum months ago asking for anyone with any experience with them and got a PM that ultimately made me decide against them. If you're interested I can PM you her name and you can ask her. 

Overall their program seems too good to be true and we all know what they say about things that seem that way 

Again, I have very little experience and my pup is quite a bit younger than yours but they just didn't seem like a good fit for the relationship I am trying to build with mine. Maybe it will be a better fit for you.

Good luck!



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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

Onyx I really like your quote 


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Question to the OP.. You mentioned adopting your dog? The place you adopted him/her from may be able to give you recommendations??


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I saw this on my fb wall this morning, worth sharing here:
> The Naughty Dogge
> Your mind is the most powerful dog training tool that you can ever possess. A tool will not give you a relationship with your dog. It can give you a fake feeling of control. But when that tool is gone, so will be what you thought you had (if you have not improved yourself).
> 
> ...


I like this...


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

What about money back is to good to be true?

I have done pet obedience on the side, and I always offer a full refund if the desired outcome is not achieved. Its something you can offer if you are confident in your training and the application of tools.

My pet clients all want one thing, a RELIABLY obedient dog. They dont want to spend a long time training. They want it quick and easy to do.They do not care about flash or competition quality positioning. They just want the dog to be RELIABLE.

Thats something I can provide very easily with an E Collar. As David said its fast, it makes things simple for the dog and the owner and its not a complicated device to use. In 3-5 sessions they have a dog that recalls, sits, downs and heels reliably. You can do the same thing with a long line but it takes longer and is not half as reliable.

Its not to good to be true its dog training. Pet training and sport training are worlds apart.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> What about money back is to good to be true?
> 
> I have done pet obedience on the side, and I always offer a full refund if the desired outcome is not achieved. Its something you can offer if you are confident in your training and the application of tools.
> 
> ...


Is the collar ever phased out, do the dogs become collar smart? Or is the foundation of training so solid, that it doesn't matter if Mr Sparky isn't involved?


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## gvalenti (Feb 3, 2014)

The website states you wont need to use the ecollar after training is complete. Whether or not that is part of the 100% garautnee im not sure.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Bottom line is.. You have to do what's best for you and your dog.. And what training method "you" are comfortable with.. 

I often wondered how you can guarantee dog training.. I mean come on, what happens when that dog refuses to sit, down or recall when all the equipment comes off.. Do you really get your money back?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Is the collar ever phased out, do the dogs become collar smart? Or is the foundation of training so solid, that it doesn't matter if Mr Sparky isn't involved?


Yes it is, the dog is collar conditioned properly before during and after the training sessions..its not rocket science.

When you create consistency in the training and things are black and white obedience becomes habitual. 
My last E Collar clients where shocked at the speed and effectiveness of the training. They found the dog to be more responsive and obedient whether or not the collar is in use. 

Bad training creates collar wise dogs...thats beginner stuff..

As to removing the collar completely you can but if you plan on taking your dog out in public or at the local park its a safety feature that I personally leave on.

For most pet owners the idea that you can walk your dog through the neighborhood at heel with no leash or have him/her off leash at the local park land with other dogs, people and small animals around is a pipe dream whatever people may say on this forum.

What takes a year at your local positive only dog trainer and still has iffy results takes less then a month with a competent e collar trainer. Its a no brainer. Not to mention the training is very easy to maintain with intermittent reenforcement.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> For most pet owners the idea that you can walk your dog through the neighborhood at heel with no leash or have him/her off leash at the local park land with other dogs, people and small animals around is a pipe dream whatever people may say on this forum.


I don't think the people on this forum fall in the "most pet owners" category, but I know tons of them have achieved this - I'm one of them. This will be my 4th GSD to be able to ditch the leash. I've never used an ecollar, so I think it's wrong to suggest this is some sort of extreme challenge that only ecollar training can provide.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Who said it was extreme? I said it takes longer and is generally not as reliable especially if the dog has drive.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Sorry, when you said "pipe dream" I was thinking you were meaning "wishful impossibility" lol.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

A lot of pet owners aren't us. They don't work their dogs in OB often because they don't enjoy it. They don't have it in their mindset to constantly be rewarding good behavior. They pretty much want a dog that will come when called, not pull on a leash and go lay down. The e-collar is a way to teach these things to the dog in a way that creates a high probability of compliance in a short time.

Most pet dogs, not necessarily high drive dogs, will keep this compliance rate without much reinforcement or sustainment training. Throw them the occasional treat or praise and they are good to go under normal distractions.

There is a reason so many board and train facilities use this method. It's not necessarily because they are unscrupulous trainers looking for a short cut to make money. I make far more off a client that wants the full OB training package with tug and focused heeling. If I trained all pet dogs in that system, they would spend months working with me instead of a couple of weeks.

I do train owners how to use the collar. I think it's important for them to understand, and important for them to know how to reinforce a recall or down at distance under distraction. Their dogs get sloppy over time, but who cares. They still down and recall, it just isn't pretty. If they want touched up, I usually have them come over for a couple hours and go through a refresher with them and the dog. 

David Winners


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

"OMG this ecollar thing sounds amazing! let me go petsmart and buy one right now. my dog is finally going to recall!" - every novice member reading this thread


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> Sorry, when you said "pipe dream" I was thinking you were meaning "wishful impossibility" lol.


No no just that the majority of pet owners and pet trainers produce decent results in the backyard or class setting. Its when they get the dog out in the world that it all falls apart.

I have dealt with young dogs that actually have a decent basis in basic obedience from various training classes. Its the reliability they lacked which led to the dog behaving as if it did not understand. 
These ones are the easiest and fastest to train, yet the previous trainers and owners where so full of biases and ignorance towards various tools or approaches they failed to complete the operant conditioning process and create reliability.

Id say the majority of 1+ year old dogs understand the commands come, sit and down. However, people go out of their way to not correct the dog or use certain tools and make the training process unnecessarily long and difficult.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> "OMG this ecollar thing sounds amazing! let me go petsmart and buy one right now. my dog is finally going to recall!" - every novice member reading this thread


I guess you should have inserted a disclaimer then. Should we avoid discussion of training techniques that take skill and experience? Who would that benefit?


David Winners


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I truly believe that people don't want well trained dogs. Not here, we do, but in general - this takes work on the owner's part and it's just too much effort for some folks. Darn it, if only they'd train themselves!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I guess you should have inserted a disclaimer then. Should we avoid discussion of training techniques that take skill and experience? Who would that benefit?
> 
> 
> David Winners


you can discuss whatever you want until you're blue in the face. i'm just telling you what people are thinking and its why ecollars are misused and people whining about banning them. 

a high stim from an ecollar is worst than a choke chain or a hard yank from the prong. i only put my dogtra at 50% power and it hurt like **** on my palm.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I believe people want a well trained dog, they just don't want to train it 

I have never advertised to train dogs. Just word of mouth and people seeing me out with my dogs. Flying downs out of motion seem to get the most attention


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> "OMG this ecollar thing sounds amazing! let me go petsmart and buy one right now. my dog is finally going to recall!" - every novice member reading this thread



I think just about everyone who said they liked the e-collar also said "it needs to be used correctly" or something along those lines.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Thats it David its a hobby for us but for others its an annoying tedious exercise in futility.

As for people buying E Collars and using them without the basis in knowledge and experience.. They will achieve just about what you would expect.. nothing and the E Collar will end up collecting dust somewhere. 
Most people dont actually want to pointlessly inflict pain on their dogs and will stop using a tool if its clearly hurting the dog despite what the AR crazies might say.

Many E Collar critics act like its this torture device you slap on the dog then press the button and presto! Instant obedience..the reality is a lot more complex but its the only way they can explain the many well trained dogs being turned out by E Collar systems.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> you can discuss whatever you want until you're blue in the face. i'm just telling you what people are thinking and its why ecollars are misused and people whining about banning them.
> 
> a high stim from an ecollar is worst than a choke chain or a hard yank from the prong. i only put my dogtra at 50% power and it hurt like **** on my palm.


You have obviously missed me slapping people around (metaphorically) for doing just that on other threads. Did you miss the superstitious learning thread too? I am probably overly cautious about telling people to use an e-collar.

I guess I should append each e-collar post with a copy/paste disclaimer 

This thread is specifically about professional trainers.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i'm generalizing david. not talking about anything you posted. i'm not even talking about this forum. i've seen your post in a lot of ecollar threads and you are careful with the advice. i am too.

like any tool people would rather get it and try it instead of getting professional help. i mean its "common sense" to strap it on and when the dog ignores a command, just zap it. like it or not, thats how most pet people think. if the dog doesnt listen then just crank it up a few notches and try again. 

unlike most tools, you can really hurt the dog with the ecollar whether its intentional or not. thats the grey area with the ecollar. its very very effective but its the easiest to misuse.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> "OMG this ecollar thing sounds amazing! let me go petsmart and buy one right now. my dog is finally going to recall!" - every novice member reading this thread


Um... doesn't look like generalization. Looks like you are talking about this thread.

I understand your point, kind of, but you aren't being very consistent.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

sorry i guess that should say "every novice member reading any ecollar thread on any dog forum". the problem is people hear how easy it is to teach a dog something and they go try it. they think its a quick fix (or at least my friends do).


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So what is your proposed solution? Would it be better to not talk about the effectiveness of the training?

I guess I don't understand what you want from me.

David Winners


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

It was determined that Midnite was one if those dogs that was not trained right with an ecollar. This was determined after a couple different evaluations with different trainers. They also thought the prong was used wrong, but that was easier to fix, so we went that route.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> So what is your proposed solution? Would it be better to not talk about the effectiveness of the training?
> 
> I guess I don't understand what you want from me.
> 
> David Winners


lol i dont want anything from you. it was a GENERALIZED statement. i didnt say not talk about it did i? no matter if its talked about or not the ecollar will always be misused because of how powerful it is. thats the grey area with ecollars.

actually if you want me to propose a solution maybe instead of banning it, only certified people can use it. or if you arent certified then you can only buy one with (blank) level of stim. that would satisfy both the animal rights people and hardcore sport people.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Seriously - how many threads on a firearms forum do you think deteriorate to the point where people are warned not to shoot their foot off? At some point we need to just sit back and listen to what people who *know*what*they're*doing* have to offer. Otherwise the novices won't even know how much they have to learn. Right?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Offleash k9 is cookie cutter bs dog training. They suck. Find a real trainer.


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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> "OMG this ecollar thing sounds amazing! let me go petsmart and buy one right now. my dog is finally going to recall!" - every novice member reading this thread



If every novice trainer was thinking that then why would they be on this forum asking advice about trainers who use this technique? 


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Everybody wants a quick fix, not just noobie dog trainers. Quick easy weight loss, workout DVDs, exercise equipment, easy money solutions, playing in the stock market, Investment opportunities, real estate, Internet TV on demand, and on and on and on.

Do we just ban it all? Regulate and legislate till we effectively turn normal law abiding citizens into criminals? Or accept that a lot use things within reason, a good number do really good things with the things available to them, and a few are going to be complete morons no matter what you do?


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