# Sticky  BLOAT true medical emergency: a must read for GSD owners



## fkeeley

How can I prevent bloat from happening again to my GSD? I had to take him Friday in to the vet due to bloat. The vet was able to pass a tube thru his stomach with no problem, thus releasing all the gas within a few hours (most within minutes). He didn't think his stomach had twisted, and if it did, problably not all the way. We did not opt for surgery due to his age and other health related problems (his chance for survival was 50-50 at that point). Since Friday he has had normal BM, is eating and drinking normal. he is on metoclopramide (to be taken 20 min prior to a meal)and Flagyl (for 10 days) to help bring good bacteria back into his system (he was on other meds/antibiotics which we took him off of them).

Anyway, how can I prevent from this happening again? Will this happen again just because we opt not to go thru surgery? We are making all the necessary "preventive" changes....We are slowly switching him back to his old dog food (he never had a problem until we started switching things around) and i'm feeding him 3 times per day, giving him the metoclopramide 20 min before a meal. I also removed the water bowl 1hr before and 1 hr after his meal and I'm hand feeding him 1 cup per sitting taking me about 7 to 10 min to feed him. 

I heard not to give foods containing citric acid, beet pulp nor soy base in it. Now here is the conflict, his food does not contain citric acid. Can I moist his dry food or not? My vet said to do it (I guess to make all the "increase before it's fed to him", but....I see websites that say to do it others that say not to. Who's right? HELP!!!

Thanks all!


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## kshort

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I don't know enough about bloat to give you advice, but if you do a Search with "bloat" as the keyword, I'll bet you'll find a bunch of information. I am so lucky I haven't had to deal with this and pray that I don't ever have to! I'm very glad your boy is doing better. It's such a scary thing, isn't it? I'm sure some very experienced people will post soon. I know there are many who have had to deal with this terrible condition.


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## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

How fortunate that you got there so quickly and were able to avoid surgery. Bloat surgery is VERY hard on dogs. Bloat stats are depressing. An awfully high number of dogs do not survive. Of those that do, many have a second incident. 

I'm not "very" experienced with it but I have had one dog bloat. She's close to 3 years post bloat.

Now I think it is OK to moisten dry food that has no citric acid content. I don't. I do feed a little bit of moist food along with the dry. If I need to switch feed, I do it gradually. I would not withhold water but I would monitor water consumption and limit what is consumed at any one time to avoid gulping water. I feed on the floor vs raised feeders and I feed two to three meals a day. I keep some symithicone(?) around in case I hear what I consider an excessively rumbly gut. But that stuff can cause loose stools so I do not give it regularly. I like to think that what I am doing helps my dog. ...

Good luck with this. Some of us have relatively healthy survivors. May you join our ranks!


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## Elaine

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

A lot of vets will recommend having the stomach tacked down after a dog bloats to prevent the stomach from twisting should the dog bloat a second time. As far as I know, this is the only preventive thing you can really do.

If you ask around, you will get totally conflicting advice on this and each person that you talk to will say they swear by their method as it works for them. When you dig deep into actual scientific research on this you won't really find anything definitive. There was research done out of Purdue a number of years ago and all they found was elevating the food dish might increase the risk of bloating, yet there are a lot of people that swear by raising the dish. There isn't any evidence that wet food, dry food, water drinking, or anything really affects it, it is just a crap shoot as to who is going to bloat and who isn't. 

My personal opinion is to not elevate a food dish above the point that the dog doesn't have his head all the way down. By this, I am talking about feeding the older dog that has trouble bending all the way to the floor to eat. I will put my dish on an upside-down icecream bucket to ease their necks but not elevate too much. I also am careful about exercise right before or after eating. I want my dogs to be calm with a resting heart rate and resting temperature.


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## EastGSD

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Here is all the info you need, print it out. Also order a bloat kit and ask your vet to show you how to use it. This is a link to The Bloat Book

http://www.dachshund.org/bloat_instructions.html

Cherri


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## Jazzstorm

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Here's a link they may be helpful:

http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm


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## balakai

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Okay, can someone point me to a study that explains why NOT to moisten food that contains citric acid?

~Kristin


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## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I don't think that you will find the answers that you are looking for, since you've asked the million dollar question.

Our boy bloated and torsioned about 2 1/2 years ago. He has had a long process of recovery from the surgery, and maybe just about now he might be back to where he was. 

The trigger for us was heavy activity after drinking lots of water, but he was going to bloat -- it was only a matter of time.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Link to Abstract of a Study done at Prudue with Bloat and Dietary Risk

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/epi/GDV_abstract.doc

Link not working on 10/2/08


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## hanslieb

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

this is sooo hard.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/22_headscratch.gif..so many opinions, and no concrete evidence....I don't think we will ever know how to avoid this terrible problem...I have fed raised bowl with King for almost 3 years..(no problems, so far), and feed the 6 month old Max, ground level...neither gulps their food, or drinks too fast..

I believe those factors "can" contribute to bloat...each others guess/solution, is as good as the next persons?....I believe in trying to learn about the major contributor's to bloat,(so they say), and avoid each senario, as best as you can...

avoid hard exersize prior to, and after meals...
feed at the same time, every day...
restrict heavy water consumption, before and after meals...
lessen gulping of food, by putting something in their dish, to slow them down...
avoid abrupt changes in food...

"maybe", these simple steps "may" help to prevent them from bloating...I have been diligent in following these "theories", and so far, all has gone well, Thank God....Best of luck for "all" of us, as we continue to research, research, research!!!... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/29_headbang.gif


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## fkeeley

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Thank you all! My vet said for me to moist the dry food (the old food he's going to be back on after the transitional food has NO citric acid). Now, I don't know whether I should or not moist the food. Anyone???? Help!!!
I did a test and got a food with citric acid and one without (and his "old food" that I no longer use). I put water, same amount, on all. The one w/ citric acid made a noise like fermentation. The others didn't. The food he's going back to (the one he was on before this all happened) was the one slower to absorb the water. The one I had changed him to (that i'm discontinuing) was just as fast absorbing water as the one with citric acid. What i was trying to do is see which food would have the most increase in size after putting it in water. Very interesting test!

Please if anyone can answer about moist or not moist food I'd really appreciate it. 
He's doing ok, but he still has gas. The vet said he'll have it probably for the rest of his life. I'm just so scared!


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## Elaine

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

The point here is that there is no real answer for you. There is no concrete evidence that moistening dry food or whether food contains citric acid has any effect at all on bloat. This is a decision you will have to make by yourself.

I know that you are terrified of your dog bloating again and I don't blame you one bit, but there isn't any real way to prevent it. If there were, we would be all over it and there would be a whole lot fewer dogs bloating.

Has your vet talked to you about the stomach tacking? Have you thought about switching dog foods so your dog is less gassy? Not all foods do well with all dogs so it might be worth trying something else.


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## debbiebrown

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

you also might want to consider a home made diet.
more digestable.
debbie


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## fkeeley

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

My vet and I decided to go back to his "old" dog food, the one he seldom had gas. I've always been very careful about feeding him 2x per day, etc, but now i'm more careful. I'll try his "old" food first and see how things shape up. If he's still passing too much gas, i'll try something else. Again, never had a problem until we switched foods, modified a few things, so hopefully going back to the "old days" will help prevent it.


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## Elaine

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Also, make sure you read the Purdue study that someone was kind enough to paste above here somewhere. This is the only published research that I know of on bloat so any other ideas of what might prevent it is all guess work. 

I honestly don't know if just getting rid of your dog's gassiness will totally prevent another reoccurence or not, it certainly won't hurt.


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## marjorie

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

The Purdue Study didnt have even ONE German Shepherd in it. Personally, I believe ita all genetics. If a dog is pre-disposed to bloat, it will bloat, no matter what you do. If its not pre-disposed to bloat, it wont, no matter what you do..


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## hanslieb

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I have been researching Bloat for a while, and I have yet to see a GSD mentioned in various studies...(?)...so, why do so many of our GSD's succumb to Bloat?... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/11_confused.gif

Yes, it scares you, me, and all of us...we have a large deep-chested breed...a pre-desposition, for Bloat...but, why are our dog's getting Bloat so much?...I wish, together, we could analize all our information, based on personal expieriences, with this horrible occurance which has taken many of our beloved "children", and try to figure out, why we have such a worrisome dilema, on our hands...

I know I am thinking way out of the norm, (and, please forgive me), but I wish there was a way for us to stop Bloat, and get some answers!!!...(sorry for all the venting)..I just care alot about our beautiful breed, and want us all to live happily with our Shepherd's, without worrying that this horrible event, may take away their wonderful lives, with us...

We all worry about Bloat so much, and why it happens?.. I wish we could do our own research, to prevent such a life-threatening event from happening....Thank's for listening....I pray for you, and all....


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## Qyn

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Sometimes it is better for us to be slightly scared that it may happen so we DO watch for the signs - this allows us to take quick action. There are a lot of triggers and some dogs will bloat no matter what you do and others will not bloat despite doing all the supposed things you should avoid doing. So much contradicting advice will not help where awareness and quick action will help and often save lives. Good luck and hopefully the actions you have decided to do will stop a reoccurence.


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## Dohhhhh

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

My Cheyenne bloated...had to have the emergency surgery to correct it. I give my dogs Gas-x with meals and before exercise expecially on hot days. I also do not feed an hour before or hour after exercise. I also stopped using raised feed dishes.

This is NOT medical advice. This is what "I" do with "my" dogs.


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## lfbaragona

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I can't say this strongly enough: get a gastropexy done on your dog and NOW. If you've slogged thru all the Purdue research and the many journal articles in JAVMA on GDV, you've seen that dogs that experience one episode of GDV have an 80% chance of another episode. The gastropexy (stomach tacking) cannot stop your dog from bloating, but it will keep the stomach from torsioning, which is the most dangerous part of bloat. It gives you much more time to deal with the emergency, a MUCH greater liklihood of being able to relieve the pressure by passing a stomach tube (which is often impossible if they torsion), and of course gives your dog a much higher chance of survival if you're not there to help him out when it happens again. I had a prophylactic (preventative) gastropexy done on my dog last spring, and in the last 6 wks, he's had TWELVE episodes of bloat and easily survived all of them, no doubt due to the gastropexy. By comparison, a friend's GSD bloated and the vet didn't do the tack, said to wait and do it later when he was healthier and not so stressed....he bloated 8 days later and died. Don't wait.

Lee Baragona


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## arycrest

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

[ QUOTE ]
By comparison, a friend's GSD bloated and the vet didn't do the tack, said to wait and do it later when he was healthier and not so stressed....he bloated 8 days later and died. Don't wait.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean the dog only bloated and died? Or did it bloat with torsion and died? If torsion was involved, did he have torsion both times he bloated or just the second time?


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## Dohhhhh

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

My vet did the gastropexy while Chey was in surgery for torsion. I figured it was routine to go ahead and do this while the surgeon had the dog open ?!?


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## arycrest

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

[ QUOTE ]
My vet did the gastropexy while Chey was in surgery for torsion. I figured it was routine to go ahead and do this while the surgeon had the dog open ?!? 

[/ QUOTE ]
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/xmastreesmiley.gif I've always thought it was standard practice too - I've never heard that it wasn't. That's why I got confused and I asked her if she was talking about bloat only or bloat with torsion.


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## Dohhhhh

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I'm confused as well. Seems like common sense to just do it while the dog is under rather than risk it happening again.


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## lfbaragona

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

>Do you mean the dog only bloated and died? Or did it bloat with torsion and died? If torsion was involved, did he have torsion both times he bloated or just the second time? 

The first time, he only had dilatation, no volvulus, and they were able to pass a tube and decompress him, so the vet sent her home and told her to wait on the gastropexy. The second time included volvulus and he was too far gone by the time they got him to the emergency vet to save.

Lee Baragona


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## arycrest

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

[ QUOTE ]

The first time, he only had dilatation, no volvulus, and they were able to pass a tube and decompress him, so the vet sent her home and told her to wait on the gastropexy. The second time included volvulus and he was too far gone by the time they got him to the emergency vet to save. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the clarification!!!


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## bearlasmom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Never let him eat out of dishes that are too high, it causes problems which trigger bloat. Does your vet or a dog food specialty company sell ID science diet food. This food cuts down on chances of bloat reoccuring or even starting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/31_paw.gif


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## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

[ QUOTE ]
.... Does your vet or a dog food specialty company sell ID science diet food. This food cuts down on chances of bloat reoccuring or even starting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/31_paw.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Are there studies that show this?


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## fkeeley

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I read the ingredients and ID science diet has soy and citric acid, the 2 "no, no" ingredients or rather the 2 ingredients that can cause bloat. I'm not sure how it would prevent bloat?


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## EastGSD

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Keep in mind the Purdue study only identified what they *think* increased incidences of bloat based on surveys....there really is no firm evidence of anything that causes bloat.

Cherri


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## hanslieb

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I believe that this is one topic that we will never truly have the answers to...I, myself, have just let it be...I do all I can to help prevent it from happening, based on what studies have said MAY contribute to bloat..

I just try to use my best judgement, these days...rest before and after meals...no abrupt changes in food, etc...why so many GSD's bloat, is still a big question, I have?...I have had GSD's all throughout my life, and I am lucky that none have them got Bloat...but, either one of my GSD's could Bloat tonite, despite all of my cautious measures!...

We all do the best that we can, to prevent such a horrible thing, from happening...unfortunately, there is no way of knowing this could happen, at any time!...At least, we are here for each other, in case one of us, is in trouble!...this is what I love most, about this wonderful site!..one big family...all of us here, for each other!!!...God Bless, and Happy New Year, to all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif....


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## marjorie

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind the Purdue study only identified what they *think* increased incidences of bloat based on surveys.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

......and, that GSDS were not included in the study! Amazing, huh?


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## Dogrunner

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

When I acquired my first German Shepard, my vet at the time told me that free feeding helps prevent bloat. I've free-feeded ever since (....15 dogs.....)and have never had a problem. I don't know if it's the free feeding or if I've been very lucky. You may want to ask your vet about it, but I don't know that I would try to start an older dog on free feeding. My understanding is that free feeding works because they nibble and graze all day instead of putting a lot of food in their stomach at once--which is sort of what you're doing with the hand feeding. 

I don't know that this helps your situation now, but maybe in the future......


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## fkeeley

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Thanks dogrunner, but Thunder is the type of dog that if he sees food, he'll gobble down. And i have another dog that's diabetic (on another type of food). If i leave food around i'm afraid he'll try to eat it, which is not good for his blood sugar. But thanks for the suggestion.


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## marjorie

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I couldnt free feed either- Missie T would eat a 20 pound bag of food, if she could, every day....If I dont watch her, and Joss doesnt eat immediately, she will also scarf his food right down.


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## arycrest

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I've got the same problems several of you have expressed. The six Hooligans eat four different brands of food. Even if they all ate the same brand, I'd still have a problem since they would have the GREAT AMERICAN PIG OUT and I'd have a lot of dogs with belly aches.


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## Dogrunner

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

That's why I'd hesitate to start an adult dog on free-feeding. When you do it at 8-12 weeks, they only pig out for a day or even less. They quickly figure out that the food is there all the time (like their water) so they only nibble when they're hungry. I know a lot of people use food as a training reinforcement, but I have 4 dogs and because I free feed, food isn't important, and they all eat out of the same bowl with no dominance issues. A bonus (for future reference) is that no one gets fat. Really. I've done this for almost 30 years and have never had a fat dog /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif 

That's not to say it can't be done with an adult dog. I have a friend who took in a rescue and she switched him over to free feeding by putting out 1/8th cup of food every half hour, then over a week, gradually increased each serving. When not all of it was eaten in an 1/2 hour, she increased the time too, to an hour. Duncan free feeds successfully now, but it was a lot more work.

Good luck with your baby /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif Bloat is such terrible worry....I feel for you!


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## RickB

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

[ QUOTE ]
When I acquired my first German Shepard, my vet at the time told me that free feeding helps prevent bloat. I've free-feeded ever since (....15 dogs.....)and have never had a problem. ... My understanding is that free feeding works because they nibble and graze all day instead of putting a lot of food in their stomach at once.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that bloat/torsion is a matter of fermentation from grain heavy diets. Some nutrient sparse, grain heavy foods have fairly high quantity feeding guidelines. The more grain in the digestive system, the greater the likeliehood that fermentation can be too much, too fast in a section of the digestive tract that cannot readily expel the excess. Some dog food ingredient lists look pretty close to what you'd feed farm animals. Dogs are not designed for grain heavy diets though many handle them fairly well. 

Grazing should reduce the likelihood of the digestive system having to handle too much gas at once. By this theory, less fermentable ingredients would also reduce the chance of bloat/torsion.


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## bearlasmom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

i have never had a problem with the dogs eating free will. the vet claims that is even healthier because as dakotas stated, they are not putting too much in their tummies at one time. i only began the practice after the death of our last GSD who died from bloat at the ripe old age of 13. 

i feed bearla science diet prescription diet (ID) plus slump (home made food) and she loves it and is doing well on it


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## relswete

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

make sure your dog is not getting alot of soy in diet this seemed to be what the prob. was for me..also it was good advice to keep them calm before and after a meal..secondly I spent months sleeping with my dog warm compresses for his belly and was able to give an antacid his vet recommended after months he was back to normal. At 14 an operation is out of the question for us. He has also had a stroke and I wanted readers to know DO NOT give up on your dog if he has had a stroke as mine has..After a week or so of carrying him all 100+ lbs of him he regained his strength and has been healthy and happy for the last few months..Good luck to u


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## wagmetail

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I've never had a dog bloat, my dad however, is a Great Dane man, and 3 dogs in the one family bloated. Grandfather, Son, and Grandson, all males. His other unrelated dogs have never bloated. I'm thinking it must be mostly genetic, and maybe more common in males.


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## bearlasmom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

OUr last baby King died of bloat at the age of 13, he is still missed. His came on too suddenly to be an aide to him. One of the things that we were told to do to prevent it with further dogs is NOT to allow them to eat out of bowls on stands. It allows to much air to go down into the stomach cavity. 

Reduce carbs if feeding dry foods, avoid those with citric acid. Add prozyme to foods, avoid alfalpha, soy bean products and brewers yeast. ADD two tablespoons of yogurt to food aday.


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## fkeeley

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

An interesting thing i learned from my vet in regards to Metoclaprimide....it works on the large intestine(where bloat occurs). Enzymes help in the small intestine, but the action starts at the large intestine. Metoclaprimde "primes" the large intestine to receive food and pass it to the small intestine quickly. I spoke with 2 pharmacists and both said the drug is not harmful considering what could happen if Thunder wasn't on the drug. It is given to newborn babies when they have digestive problems until they are about 5yrs old which is when they outgrow the problems. At 14yrs old let's face it, Thunder's "long term" is not that much longer (considering other problems he has). Metoclaprimide is our "safe guard" against bloat and i pray everyday that it does what it suppose to, which is to give the large intestine motility to pass the food to the small intestine.


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## fkeeley

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I found a website that i have posted to my refrigerator door (just in case). It list all the symptoms of bloat and also preventive measurement....
http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm


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## marie0414

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

We bought Sam this feeding bowl called "Brake-Fast" it's a plastic food bowl with three prongs sticking up. He has to eat around the prongs to get to the food. It has slowed him down considerably that he can eat from a regular bowl without inhaling his food. Money well spent! They cost around $16.95


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## Jolanbee

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I lost my two chows to bloat. Their stomachs were completely twisted by the time they arrived at the emergency clinic. 

I know GSD is a high-risk breed to bloat. And because bloat happened to my two chows who were raised together (and therefore identically), I'm raising Griffin in a completely different way, meaning: no more commercial packaged food, and no rigorous exercise right before meal.

Some people blamed the preservatives / chemicals added to commerical packaged food are one of the contributing factors to bloat. So I decided to feed Griffin home-cooked food two times a day (which contains chicken, vegetables, and brown rice). He also gets digestive enzyme for each meal. No exercise (e.g. running) one hour before or after meal. I give him limited access to water at meal-time.


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## BERT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Earlier this week I rushed one of my dogs into the emergency room for bloat. He woke us up at 4 groaning and fortunately we were able to get him to the vet right as they were opening up. They removed 1/3 of his stomach and the op went well and he seems to be recovering quite well. 

Of course now I am very nervous of feeding. I have stopped feeding any treats to any of my other dogs (all gsds) I dont know how it happened though. I fed them canned along with dry - did I do wrong? They have had this combination many times. Did I feed them too much? How should I proceed with feedings now? He had the gastropexy done but Keifer if your dog also had that done and is still suffering with bloat how do you deal with that? Do you take him to the vet each time. Should I be giving gas-ex? 

By the way I lost his father to bloat 8 months ago and one of his siblings died of bloat 2 years ago, it sounds like it may be genetic and one of his brothers seems to be exhiiting signs that it may happen to him too.


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## bearlasmom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

i found these links and the following info while researching VWD for the paper i am doing on the disease that affects Bearla. i hope it helps any questions concerning this horrible disease

Is Nutrition A Factor? 

I would like to take a look at the potential role diets can play in these diseases. I refer to these as two separate diseases because we can have bloat without torsion, as well as spleen torsion without any bloating or stomach torsion. 
Of all my articles, this one is probably the most difficult to write because of the painful subject matter. The topic of bloat and/or torsion conjures up a multitude of feelings for any individual who has had first hand experience with these terrifying diseases. The feelings of frustration and helplessness are only compounded by the fact that there has been no new valid research information (Purdue Bloat Study),on the cause or prevention of these diseases. 
The Purdue Bloat Study is very misleading to lay individuals because it presents itself as scientific research, when in fact it is only statistical research. The information at the Purdue website was not what we refer to, in academic communities, as peer evaluated, making it unsubstantiated information. The problem is the average dog owner does not know this and then believes the information put out on the internet as science and truth. For a further explanation of the validity of this research, read my article on the Purdue paper.
We have been told to watch the excessive consumption of water, particularly after exercise, and to soak food before feeding, which we now know is wrong because soaking actually destroy nutrients and actually cause fermentation (Blackwatch Feed Program). Then we have the controversy over the use of beet pulp (Beet Pulp Myth) as well as the concern regarding extruded versus pelletized foods. 
Frankly, in the final analysis, I doubt any of these concerns have much to do with the cause and prevention of bloat and torsion. Therefore, I would like to offer another viewpoint for you to consider.
For the past 30 years research has been looking at these diseases, as well as other health issues, through old paradigms (models) and with no input from the professional breeders and their practical experience and knowledge. In spite of the thousands of dollars donated to the Morris Foundation, we are no further ahead in solving these problems and have no credible information. I believe there needs to be a dialogue between the research and professional breeders in order to solve the origin of this problem. Gathering data by university research people, after a dog has bloated, really does little in addressing the cause or prevention and thus calls for a more creative approach to solving these dreaded diseases. 
It has been my ongoing personal investigation into nutritionally caused diseases that has led me to question our approach to bloat and torsion. It is important to understand what I am about to discuss is only my opinion, based on 33 years of experience in this breed, personal nutritional investigation and information on health issues shared by researchers, nutritionists and thousands of other breeders.

I believe there are things we can do nutritionally to narrow our chances of having bloat and torsion. I have found it very interesting to see a significant drop in the number of incidents of bloat and torsion over the past few years in my animals and animals of my friends and breeders across the country. Understand, I can not guarantee if you follow my feed program that you will never have a case of bloat, torsion or spleen torsion. There is no such thing as a guarantee, but I feel a good nutritional program is the foundation for better health.

I lost my first Dane to bloat/torsion 31 years ago and it changed my life and the way I view these dogs. I now realize they are extremely fragile and every day with us is a gift. I have learned to love the breed as a whole because of this fragility and not a day goes by that I don't think about bloat and torsion especially when I leave the house. My whole life's schedule is geared around my dogs and would not think of traveling to a dog show without a bloat kit. (To purchase a bloat kit call "The Farmacy" 1-800-733-4981.) 
It has been my experience that the number of incidents of bloat-torsion have dropped dramatically over the past few years probably due to better quality meat based foods, and the incorporation of whole fresh foods, dietary enzymes and probiotics and digestive enzymes into the diet. 
It is not news that most breeders and research people believe these diseases have multi-factorial causes and triggered by stress: 

- stress, obvious or hidden signs 
- physiological stress
- psychological stress
- genetic considerations
- environmental factors
I would like to list some other elements, seldom considered, that need to be addressed as potential factors in the cause of these diseases: 
- Toxic Gut Syndrome and Leaky Gut Syndrome
- candida Albicans - yeast/fungus overgrowth
- pH balance - the effect when the pH balance is off - yeast-fungus-pathogens
- dietary influences - on pH balance of animals' electrical system 
- dietary influences - overuse of vitamins/mineral
- dietary influences - inadequacies or missing nutrients, such as:
•	probiotics - friendly bacteria 
•	digestive enzymes 
•	sulfur ( raw foods) 
•	micro-minerals 
•	antioxidant vitamins/minerals/enzymes 
•	dietary enzymes (raw foods) 
It is my opinion the disease of bloat/torsion manifests itself when the animal is under stress due to many factors. Sometimes the stress is external and obvious and other times it is internal and goes unnoticed. Bloat and torsion may appear to be triggered by one event when in reality it is a condition that has been building due to a number of circumstances. 
I believe the disease is multi-factored and is in response to a deterioration of a total system affected by environmental, dietary, psychological, physiological factors. These factors, singly or in combination, cause excessive wear on an animal's system, changes the pH balance and can encourage pathogenic bacteria and yeast fungus overgrowth in the gut causing bloat. It can alter the body's electrical and chemical balance which under the right conditions will cause gas buildup in the stomach which can lead to bloat and later torsion. 
It is important to look at solving this problem from a holistic viewpoint. Instead of looking for a single cause for these diseases, like excessive water intake or the size of the animal's chest, we must understand the total picture. "The parts are not greater than the whole" and, therefore, everything has a tremendous impact on the animal's total well-being. 

Stress and the Effect on Bloat and Torsion 
Stress drastically affects the body chemistry of any living organism and it alters the pH balance of the system. I believe this is an important factor in the cause of bloat and torsion. There has certainly been enough scientific research done to prove when an organism responds in a negative way to stress. The results can be detrimental to one's health and well-being. Stress is not this "thing" out there lurking. Stress in itself does not exist. 
Stress is the way the way in which an organism (you, me, the dogs) responds to certain situations or stimulus. Some of us and some dogs, due to genetics, body chemistry, nutrition and personality, seem to handle negative stress better than others. But as humans we can make a conscious choice as to how we are going to handle and reduce stress from our daily lives (exercise, diet, meditation, crying). But for our animals, this is an area seldom considered. Recognizing stress as a problem and altering their situation is determined only by how in tuned we are to their needs. Stress can effect the pH balance of an animal's system which in turn can set up an internal environment ideal for the fermentation of food and the growth of pathogenic bacteria. Exercise is important in the elimination of stress for humans as well as animals, and dogs that are kenneled and caged without adequate exercise for muscle/bone development as well as for psychological reasons (boredom and inertia) are primary candidates for these diseases. This is no different than when an individual retires, becomes inactive and succumbs to death far too early in life. 
OTHER FACTORS TO CONSIDER:
Diet 

As humans, we also have choices when it comes to our dietary needs. We attend to those cravings and fulfill our dietary needs, unlike the dogs who are relegated to a boring diet of processed dead foods day in and day out for their entire life. They seldom have access to a variety of foods in order to compensate for nutrients lacking in a diet - especially dietary enzymes (Nzymes), probiotics and digestive enzymes. The idea of feeding real foods either in part or whole has not been considered to have value except in the past 10 years. 
Environment
We remove these animals from their natural environment, bring them into our homes as a family member and alter their life style to fit ours. (Yes, my grandma's dog loves to be covered up with my good down comforter.) These are some of the areas in which animals may respond in a stressful manner because of being subjected to certain conditions that are not really suited for four legged friends: sudden changes in diet after being fed the same thing daily; use and overuse of antibiotics; emotional trauma; psychological stress; ingestion of chemicals in food or water (chlorine, preservatives, nitrites, etc.); pollution; excessive noise; travel; boarding; breeding; showing; shipping; changes in environment; exposure to continual artificial light; disease; excessive inoculations; medications; loss/death or abandonment; and personal changes in their habits such as removal or changes in crates, toys, feeding stations, family upheaval and various other changes too numerous to mention. Some animals are able to handle stressful situations while others are not and I suspect the animal who is hypersensitive and internalizes stress is a primary candidate for bloat and torsion. If our animals are able to "work" or to "function" in a more natural way, and this means exercise and not being caged or kenneled the majority of their lives, this would help expend pent up energy and to manage stress. 
Genetics

When we limit our gene pool to specific kennel names, bloodlines, color families as well as remaining within each specific breed, this prevents us from maintaining hybrid vigor. It maximizes our chances for doubling on negative traits with the increased potential for animals that are more sensitive to stimulus (light, sound, movement) and affect the total physiological system (body functions) and their psychological system (mental/behavioral functions). 
Temperament 

The reliable correct and stable temperament of our breed is something we must guard closely. Because breeders tend to breed for that "up" dog with an edge, we are also making an animal that is more prone to noise, light, movement sensitivity, dog aggressiveness and appetite problems in this breed. I believe it is imperative that we choose only temperamentally sound animals for breeding stock in order to increase our chances of producing generations of animals that are more stable, trainable, reliable, intelligent and above all flexible and able to handle stress. Younger breeders need to look at the whole picture and realize they may have to undo, for the sake of the breed, what breeders of my generation have done for the sake of the show ring. 
Dietary Concerns 

Diet and its effect on bloat and torsion is the main focus of this article. The processed commercial foods are an area I will continue to address as a cause for many of our current health problems. The commercial dog food industry is relatively young and has developed because of a financial need to utilize foods that are substandard for human consumption. The industry needs to take a closer look at the nutritional requirements, feeding habits and patterns of the dogs/cats in order to help eliminate some of our current food related health problems. 
The research done by F. Pottenger, M.D. in his book "The Pottenger's Cats - A Study in Nutrition" is a fascinating look at a controlled study of cats fed raw versus cooked foods. This study detailed clinical and pathological findings in cats as well as humans which provided convincing evidence that processed foods are a modern day villain. The book includes several photos of animals and human dentition (teeth), showing the actual difference in those eating a modern processed diet to those of isolated cultures where whole raw foods are the natural diet. There are actual physical changes in jaw structure with teeth overlapping and decay present in individuals raised on modern processed diets. 
I believe there is a direct correlation between the lack of whole, fresh, raw foods in our animals' diet and the problems of bloat, torsion, disease, short life span, fertility and numerous degenerative diseases. The vast majority of the problems we have been told are genetic are actually the result of feeding inadequate, incomplete, inferior grade, processed, fractionated, synthetic, hormone raised and pesticide ridden food stuffs to our animals and ourselves. 
There are a handful of commercial dog food companies that are visionary and are working to add back to the diet those important missing components. I commend the Eagle, Wysong, Innova, Back2Basics, PHD, Precise to name a few, who have worked to incorporate some of these "life supporting" missing components into their products and pride themselves in working with professional breeders in the improvement of these feeds. 
In my previous articles I have discussed in great detail the fact that heating and processing of food stuffs kills or alters the "living" elements normally found in fresh raw whole foods. Therefore, dog food companies spray vitamins, minerals and amino acids back onto the dog food after processing and before bagging. 
Most of the vitamins and amino acids are synthetic and minerals are in such crude forms the animals cannot use them. (Example: milk and chalk are both calcium sources. Milk is a usable form derived from a whole food but chalk is a mined mineral and not a very usable form of calcium because it is not from a food). Then there is the even greater issue of getting each of these synthetic and mined nutrients from separate sources and mixing them together and thinking they will work together like they do when found in a natural state. Wrong! When we extract the part from the whole it is not the same. The following nutrients can be most critical in helping to prevent bloat and torsion and are often disregarded by the majority of nutritionists, veterinarians, physicians and of course dog food manufacturers. 
•	probiotics (friendly bacteria yogurt type cultures) 
•	digestive enzymes 
•	antioxidants vitamins (Vit C) 
•	sulfur - MSM 
•	dietary enzymes - Nzymes 
•	micronutrients (64 trace minerals) 

Torsion: Could it be an Electrical Short Circuit? 

Could torsion be the result of an electrical problem within the body? Let's consider this possibility. First of all, 95% of the body's activities are run by minerals. As you sit there reading this article, you exude 11 million kilowatt hours per pound (some of us more) and if they could harness us we could fuel a large industrial city for a week! 
Minerals are what spark our body's electrons and they are absolutely critical in the diet because they affect the electrical impulses and the body chemistry. Did you get that? Minerals are what effect the electrical impulses and the body chemistry. 
As owners, we are told to feed our animals the same processed, prepackaged food day in and day out. We have all seen the television ad from a large well known company that promotes this idea in selling their product. "Why, everything they will ever need is included in this one package." Of course, this short sighted theory assumes we all have the same dietary needs. 
When an animal is not part of the food selection process and not allowed to hunt and scavenge, how can special dietary needs and cravings be addressed? The best example is the mineral and micronutrient issue, particularly the micronutrients. There have been no minimum or maximum determined for most of the minerals and micronutrients. Therefore, these components are simply "overlooked" or disregarded as being unimportant in a diet. However, it is these "essential" minerals and microminerals that are the nutrients necessary to run the body's electrical and chemical system! Although minerals were at one time abundant in our soil and transmitted into grains, fruits, grasses and vegetables, modern farming practices have depleted soils of these minerals. Herbicides, pesticides and mechanical leaching and intensive farming has leached minerals from the soil. We must then go to another source for high quality minerals, such as the cereal grasses and marine plants. Yes, kelp is good to use but is like a weed compared to seaweeds and blue green algae. 
A Part of the Solution: Diet 
In my previous article "Whole Food For Disease Prevention", I addressed the way in which I have incorporated whole food nutrients into the diet without significantly changing the protein/calorie content or disrupting the balance of the commercial food. I use the following products in small amounts to help accomplish this goal. It allows me to fill in the potential holes in the diet with a minimum of effort. 
Nzymes - dietary enzyme that puts the living component back into the diet
4 in 1 Probiotics - probiotics, digestive enzymes, Vit C and barley grass
MSM - nutritional sulfur - for maintaining the body’s electrical system
Source - micronutrients - 64 trace elements from marine plants
Part of the Solution: Sulfur/Microminerals 
update: Note, if you are using the joint supplement Flexicose or Liquid Health you do not need to supplement any more MSM, both products have ample amounts of MSM a part of the supplement. 
I want to focus on the element of sulfur for a moment because I am astonished no one has looked at this potential connection to the problem of torsion. Sulfur is one of these critical nutrients yet is almost discounted by dog food companies, nutritionists and veterinarians. I believe nutritional sulfur, which can be obtained in a product called MSM, and the micronutrient minerals from marine plant, which can be obtained in a product called Source, may very well play an important role in the prevention of bloat and torsion. 
There may be a possible connection between bloat and torsion and inadequate amounts of or an absence of sulfur and micronutrients in the processed canine diet. This one mineral, sulfur, is of such great importance in body electricity and chemistry that I feel it is an important piece to this whole picture. Most dog foods are low or absent in sulfur content in the nutritional assay and if they do put it back in the food it is in as an amino acid supplementation. This mineral is really given no importance in light of the whole health picture yet here is some information about sulfur you will find very interesting. 
Sulfur is a mineral and has the same toxicity as water. There is practically no research done on sulfur and nothing is assigned as minimum or maximum requirements by nutritional standards. The National Research Council (NRC) and AFFCO does not even list it as a nutritional requirement for the dogs/cats. You will not find sulfur in the vitamins you purchase either. Sulfur is fragile and lost during heat and processing.

Sulfur is important for the following functions: 
- electrical impulses 
- overall body chemistry and balance 
- tissue respiration 
- regulating growth patterns 
- protein and connective tissue (hips/elbows) 
- developing collagen (hips/elbows) 
- making bone 
- metabolism 
- fertility 
Now if that isn't enough, where do you think sulfur is normally found in abundant quantities ... in raw meat! Yes, you heard me right, raw meat. Sulfur is found in protein containing foods and in eggs, green vegetables, cereal grasses (barley, wheat, rye, grasses), alfalfa and fresh grasses (like the ones they tend to graze on in the yard, crab grass and young ragweed leaves, seaweeds and algaes), all things missing from most commercial diets. 
Another interesting fact, nutritional sulfur (MSM) is used in horses to correct epiphyiutis, their equivalent to H.O.D. in over-fed yearlings, as well as in spondolysis and nutritional wobblers. Previously I discussed my recent experience working with another breeder and using MSM on a young puppy with wobbler-like symptoms. They saw a considerable improvement in just a few days. 
Example: It was explained to me that farm animals bloat when they consume a diet too rich in nitrogen in relation to the amount of sulfur in their diet. Grains/cereal products are high in nitrogen and ferment quickly and raw meats are high in sulfur. 
Consider this: 
- Is it possible the relationship of grains to meat in a diet or how they are prepared sets up a condition which may promote bloating? 
- Why were the cases of bloat more frequent 10-15 years ago, when most of the foods were grain based? 
I believe we see less bloat and torsion this past decade is because dog food companies are improving the foods by going to a meat-based food. The old-timers will remember one particular "yellow" grain based food, the one that went in "yellow" and came out "yellow", and seemed to sour and ferment within a matter of minutes if left standing with water on the food. The better companies also go to the added expense of using a Probiotics - Digestive Enzyme combination.

Part of the Solution: Probiotics/Digestive Enzymes 
Probiotic (pro-life) are microorganisms and probiotics are the opposite of antibiotics (anti-life). Over time man and microbes have reached an intricate state of coexistence on this planet and on and in our bodies. In fact, all warm-blooded animals are profoundly dependent on the microbial world. Despite the inclination to regard microorganisms as the enemy, the essential truth is the majority of these "life forms" favor cohabitation and cooperation, not conflict. While some microorganisms (bacteria) are bad or "pathogenic bacteria", other microorganisms are considered good bacteria and play a very beneficial role in maintaining health, particularly in the digestive tract and by boosting the immune system. These good bacteria also inhibit bad bacteria growth and decreasing the amount of time necessary for recovery from disease. These good bacteria are called probiotics. These are some examples of common probiotics found to enhance health and nutrition. 
- Lactobacillus acidophilus
- Lactobacillus lactis 
- Bifidobacterium bifidum 
- Streptococcus faecium
I believe we will soon see a decrease in the excessive use of antibiotics which tend to be non-selective and kill both bad and good bacteria. Those of you who have had fever blisters, cold sores, diarrhea, or yeast infections after antibiotic therapy no doubt experienced this problem. Using probiotics simulatenously with antibiotics and continuing to use them for at least a week to ten days after you have run your course of antibiotics will help to reestablish the system with beneficial bacteria and can help prevent or lessen the time in which you have these negative effects from antibiotics. This is true in animals and a little extra added to the diet daily, over and above your normal dosage of the Daily Greens Plus, is very helpful in reestablishing the system. 

One current example of this particular use of probiotics (good bacteria) in fighting pathogenic (bad) bacteria was that of the E. coli scare from the "Jack-in-the-box" food poisoning incident in California. Some of the individuals were given a very high powered "probiotic" in order to fight off the potential effects of the deadly bad bacteria found present in the contaminated meat. 
(Probiotics) are often referred to by several names: 
- good bacteria 
- friendly bacteria 
- yogurt type cultures 
- good intestinal flora 
Probiotics (good bacteria) should be ever present and in good balance within our system and in the digestive tract (humans and animals). But when an organic system responds in a negative way to stress, this can alter the pH balance of the body which can have a powerful negative effect by killing off good bacteria in the digestive tract which frequently leads to diarrhea. This negative change in a system can also set up an environment that promotes the growth of bad (pathogenic) bacteria. 
Poor quality diet is another factor in the wearing down of a system. If an animal's digestive system has to work overtime processing foods it is very hard on the system plus the continuous feeding of poor quality, processed foods only adds to an overall breakdown in health and well-being. 
The canine intestines are short and meant to process primarily meat. A cereal-based diet is more difficult to digest, takes longer to go through a system and tends to ferment quickly. This sets the stage for a condition which helps promote the growth of bad bacteria and may increase the risk of bloating. Hydrochloric acid is necessary for proper canine digestion but I have observed that dogs do not drool over cereal based foods like they do over meat-based or raw meat diets. I suspect this limited amount of hydrochloric acid being produced by the animal when fed cereal-based foods may also contribute to this build up of gases in bloat. 
A couple good probiotic/digestive enzyme products are Filling N The Wholes (800-872-0074) or "4 in 1 Probiotics", for probiotics because it has numerous benefits in helping to minimize our chances of bloat. This probiotic/digestive enzyme plus vitamin C and vegetation in the form of cereal grasses are important to my animals because it: 

- maintains good bacteria growth 
- replaces good bacteria that is lost 
- helps maintain the proper pH balance 
- keeps pathogenic bacteria in check 
- increases utilization of food/nutrients 
- helps to boost the immune system 
I keep on hand a variety of forms of probiotics. It comes in a paste which I use for new puppies or during emergencies. Because it is not necessary to keep the paste refrigerated, it can be carried in a grooming bag or purse for traveling and dog shows.s

Beet Pulp - Does it Have a Role in Bloat? 
No, beet pulp has absolutely no connetion to bloat. Beet pulp is probably one of the most misunderstood and maligned ingredients in manufactured dog foods. Take the time to understand to understand the role of prebiotics and probiotics in the maintenance of the healthy body. If this is done, then one can begin to understand the role of beet pulp in a feeding program. This article speaks to misinformation that has perpetrated about beet pulp. This is not just theory on my part. The input is from scientists, medical and nutrition people who have studied in the area of prebiotics and probiotics. I will address villae clogging, use of fiber, and saponins. Please note that the positions held in the misinformation have not been proven scientifically. They are theories only. 

1. Statement: Beet Pulp clogs the villae in the intestine. False

Beet pulp does not clog the villae in the intestine. This is a theory by an owner of a dog food company. There are no scientific studies which support this theory. There are several studies which show how beet pulp is beneficial in promoting a healthy digestive system. What can clog the villae? If villae are blocked, the prime cause is typically insufficient or total lack of a probiotic colony in the gut. (More on that later.) Another cause of villae clogging is bentonite, which is a fine clay which is used in some cheap dog foods.

2. Statement: Beet pulp is an indigestible fiber. 

While this statement is true, the beet pulp is not in the food for nutritive value to the dog. It is not supposed to be digested by the dog. The beet pulp has two purposes. First, the beet pulp provides nutrition for the probiotics. (It is a prebiotic.) Having good food available encourages the colonization of probiotics. (Prebiotics, defined by Gibson and Roberfroid (1995) as "nondigestible food ingredients that beneficially affect the host by selectively stimulating the growth and/or activity of one or a limited number of bacteria in the colon and thus improves host health," may include starches, dietary fibers, other non-absorbable sugars, sugar alcohols, andoligosaccharides.." (Gibson et al., 1996). 
Gibson, G. and Roberfroid, M.B. 1995. Dietary modulation of the human colonic mibrobiota: Introducing the concept of prebiotics. J. Nutr. 125: 1401-1412. Gibson, G.R., Williams, A., Reading, S., and Collins, M.D. 1996. 
Fermentation of non-digestible oligosaccharides by human colonic
bacteria. Proc. Nutr. Soc. 55: 899-912.

The second purpose is to provide bulk to the stool which allows it to move through the digestive tract. at a rate which assures maximum digestion and absorption of nutrients. Note: The probiotics cling to the wall of the intestine and dine. While they are there, the bad bacteria cannot gain a food hold. Of course, they won't be there if there is not a proper servings at the banquet table on which to feast.

3. Saponins in the beet pulp might be responsible for bloat. False.

In the paper, "Toxic Substances and Crop Plants" by the Royal Society of Chemistry states that "saponins at the levels fed in modern diets are not toxic but in fact exert a variety of health enhancing benefits, (*including providing fermentation for probiotic viability. )

From Dr. K. Kern 
Wysong Corporation and Research Facility Jan 27, 1993 "The claims ...... that saponins cause bloat in is not documented by any reference to any scientific literature. It is simply conjecture and assertion and not fact" Saponins are found in over 100 plant families. These foods have been a part of the mammalian and human diet for thousands of years. Saponin-containing foods are also known to be of therapeutic and health enhancing benefits. . There is no documented proof that feeding a pet food with micro-amounts of saponins causes gastrointestinal paralysis and vomiting(bloat).
Below find information from documented scientific sources:

"Beet pulp has been found to be an ideal source of moderately fermentable fiber. Fiber sources such as cellulose, peanut hulls or soy bean hulls are poor sources because they are not very fermentable. The correct amount and type of fiber is necessary for a normal healthy digestive tract. There are bacteria in the normal healthy digestive track. These bacteria have the ability to ferment or digest certain types of fiber. The ideal fiber is on the is partially fermentable or digestible, i.e., beet pulp. We want some fiber left to provide that bulk to the stool that is necessary for a healthy digestive system, but we also want some of the fiber to be digested by the bacteria." 1

Beet pulp in a diet encourages colonization of those bacteria which best ferment or digest that form of fiber and discourage those organisms which do not effectively ferment fiber. It so happens that many good bacteria that commonly inhabit the large intestines can deal with beet pulp (Lactobacillus acidophilus and Enterococcus faecium are just two) and many pathogenic bacteria are not supported by its presence (Clostridium sp.,Salmonella sp. and e. coli) 2.

Because beet pulp is an ideal food source for these good bacteria, they tend to overgrow potentially bad bacteria (pathogens and gas producers) and make the gut much more resistant to these harmful organisms. As a result of this digestive or fermentation process, vital nutrients called short chain fatty acids are produced which provide superior nutrition to the cells lining the large intestine enhancing their ability to function. 4

These short chain fatty acids (SCFA) are the key to a healthy and efficient digestive tract. The cells that line the intestinal track feed voraciously on SCFA. These cells have a high turnover rate and rely on SCFA to provide adequate nutrition. 3
That portion of beet pulp left after the fermentation of bacterial digestive process promotes ideal nutrient digestibility. The volume of stool is not excessive thus allowing the motility of the gut to move the nutrients along at a rate which assures maximum digestion and absorption.

1. Buterwick, Maxwell. The effect of level and source of dietary fiber on food intake in the dog. Journal of Nutrition 1994 Vol. 124 
2. Collins MD, Gibson Dr. Nutritional modulation of microbial ecology. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1998 
3. Hallman JE, Moxley RA, et al. Cellulose, beet pulp and pectin/gum arabic effects on canine microstructure and histopathology. Veterinary Clinical Nutrition 1995;2:137-141 
4. Albert S. Townshend DVM, Wellness for Life, Am Journal of Clinical Nutrition 
1999

Part of the Solution: Antioxidants 
I want to talk about the importance of antioxidants in the after care of torsion surgery. I cannot address the topic of surgery without discussing specific antioxidant enzymes and the remarkable results we have seen using these enzymes. 
First some background on oxygen free radicals and their counterparts antioxidants. What do oxygen "free radicals" and car exhaust have in common? They are both toxic byproducts produced by the production of energy. Energy is necessary to make both the car and the human/animal body function. The fuels may be different, one is oxygen the other is gasoline, but the end result is the same. Both produce energy and both have a toxic waste byproduct from that energy production. 
"Oxygen free radicals" (toxic byproducts) are the bad guys and antioxidants are the good guys because they move around the cells of the body and gobble up the free radicals. Think of these toxins as "body rust" and antioxidants are the rust inhibitors. Free radicals are what make us age and eventually die. So antioxidant enzyme supplementation can help by: 
•	aiding in the prevention of aging and diseases such as cancer and other debilitating illnesses 
•	reduces the negative effects of cancer therapies 
•	reduces the negative effects of anesthetics after surgery 
•	speeds repair of tissues and bone due to surgery/trauma 
•	boosts the immune system 
•	retards periodontal disease and the prevention of heart disease 
•	works on soft tissues and is great for reducing allergy problems. *Note: I no longer have hay fever because of this enzyme. 
•	flushing toxins from the system, chemicals, pesticides, etc. 
•	aids in reproductive problems, regulating cycles and problems with infertility and sterility (humans and animals) 
The dietary consideration for the after surgery animal is the same as I have addressed previously in this article, particularly the use of "4 in 1 Prrobiotics and MSM-Nutritional Sulfur. They are a must. But I want to discuss an enzyme called Nzymes which is a remarkable antioxidant of particular interest to me regarding bloat and torsion because of its ability to: 
•	minimize the side effects and after effects of anesthetics 
•	speed healing of soft tissue 
•	reduce the inflammation and soreness of soft tissue 
•	prevent "reperfusion injury" after bloat and torsion surgery 
"Reperfusion injury" is a condition whereby toxins, free radicals or oxygen byproducts are released into the system of the animal after surgery trauma and anesthetics which often causes death. According to a study done at Purdue University, the majority of dogs lost after torsion surgery die from perfusion injury due to this release of toxins in the body causing heart arrhythmia. Antioxidants enzymes, such as the Nzymes, is one way to help support the system in hopes of preventing "reperfusion injury". Even though torsion is an emergency surgery start the animal on this product as soon as possible right after surgery. This is not a drug but a food concentrate and will not conflict with any medication the animal is on at the time. During an emergency surgery of any kind the sooner you can start the animal on it the better. Also, for elective surgery such as ear cropping and potential vaccine reactions, we start puppies from weaning and leave them on the Nzymes until all inoculations are given to minimize our chances of vaccine reactions. 
To order call 1-877-816-6500
Summary 
It is my opinion, the disease of bloat and torsion manifests itself under stressful conditions. Sometimes the stress is external and obvious. Other times it may be triggered by one event, but it is my feeling the disease is multifactored in response, to a chronic deterioration of the total system, affected by environmental, physiological, dietary and psychological factors. These factors, singly or in combination, causes excessive wear on the animal's system, changing the pH balance and encourages fungus/yeast and/or pathogenic bacteria growth (bloat), and alters the body's electrical and chemical balance (torsion). 
I do not claim to have the answers for these diseases, but I do not believe one has to be a rocket scientist to realize we must stop looking for one cause and be more sensitive to the whole animal, how it interacts within its environment and what nourishment we are putting into these living systems. We must replace our physical bodies with whatever material we choose to ingest in the form of food. If we choose junk foods and toxins then our bodies become junk and toxins and we soon fall prey to disease, debilitation and death. We truly are what we eat and the dogs are what we choose to feed them since they no longer have a choice in the selection of their own diets. 
I honestly believe we can minimize our chances and even prevent most diseases, including bloat and torsion, as well as manage those who have already gone through the surgery and live without fear of reoccurrence. It is my sincere hope that you have as much luck with this program as we have had over the years. But understand, it is NO GUARANTEE, but for myself and other breeders it is a definite step in the right direction.




BLOAT: THE MOTHER OF ALL EMERGENCIES
There are many injuries and physical disorders which represent life-threatening emergencies. There is only one condition so drastic that it over shadows them all in terms of rapidity of consequences and effort in emergency treatment. This is the gastric dilatation and volvulus - the"bloat." 
WHAT IS IT AND WHY IS IT SO SERIOUS?
The normal stomach sits high in the abdomen and contains a small amount of gas, some mucus, and any food being digested. It undergoes a normal rhythm of contraction, receiving food from the esophagus above, grinding the food, and meting the ground food out to the small intestine at its other end. Normally this proceeds uneventfully except for the occasional burp.
In the bloated stomach, gas and/or food stretches the stomach many times its normal size, causing tremendous abdominal pain. For reasons we do not fully understand, this grossly distended stomach has a tendency to rotate, thus twisting off not only its own blood supply but the only exit routes for the gas inside. Not only is this condition extremely painful but it is also rapidly life-threatening. A dog with a bloated, twisted stomach (more scientifically called "Gastric Dilatation and Volvulus") will die in pain in a matter of hours unless drastic steps are taken. 
WHAT ARE THE RISK FACTORS FOR DEVELOPING BLOAT?
Classically, this condition affects dog breeds which are said to be "deep chested," meaning the length of their chest from backbone to sternum is relatively long while the chest width from right to left is narrow. Examples of deep chested breeds would be the Great Dane, Greyhound, and the setter breeds. Still, any dog can bloat, even dachshunds and chihuahuas.
Dogs weighing more than 99 pounds
have an approximate 20% risk of bloat
Classically also, the dog had eaten a large meal and exercised heavily shortly thereafter. Still, we usually do not know why a given dog bloats on an individual basis. No specific diet or dietary ingredient has been proven to be associated with bloat. Some factors found to increase and decrease the risk of bloat are listed below: 
Factors Increasing the Risk of Bloating
•	Feeding only one meal a day

•	Having closely related family members with a history of bloat

•	Eating rapidly

•	Being thin or underweight

•	Fearful or anxious temperment

•	History of aggression towards people or other dogs

•	Male dogs are more likely to bloat than females

•	Older dogs (7 - 12 years) were the highest risk group 
Factors Decreasing the Risk of Bloat
•	Inclusion of canned dog food in the diet

•	Inclusion of table scraps in the diet

•	Happy or easy-going temperment

•	Eating 2 or more meals per day 
In a study done by the Perdue University Research Group, headed by
Dr. Lawrence T. Glickman:

The Great Dane was the number one breed at risk for bloat 

The St. Bernard was the #2 breed at risk for bloat 

The Weimaraner was the #3 breed at risk for bloat 
HOW TO TELL IF YOUR DOG HAS BLOATED
The dog may have an obviously distended stomach especially near the ribs but this is not always evident depending on the dog's body configuration.
The biggest clue is the vomiting: the pet appears highly nauseated and is retching but little is coming up.
If this is seen, rush your dog to the veterinarian IMMEDIATELY.
WHAT HAS TO BE DONE
There are several steps to saving a bloated dogs life. Part of the problem is that all steps should be done at the same time and as quickly as possible.
FIRST: THE STOMACH MUST BE DECOMPRESSED
The huge stomach is by now pressing on the major blood vessels carrying blood back to the heart. This stops normal circulation and sends the dog into shock. Making matters worse, the stomach tissue is dying because it is stretched too tightly to allow blood circulation through it. There can be no recovery until the stomach is untwisted and the gas released. A stomach tube and stomach pump are generally used for this but sometime surgery is needed to achieve stomach decompression.
ALSO FIRST: RAPID IV FLUIDS MUST BE GIVEN TO REVERSE THE SHOCK
Intravenous catheters are placed and life-giving fluid solutions are rushed in to replace the blood that cannot get past the bloated stomach to return to the heart. The intense pain associated with this disease causes the heart rate to race at such a high rate that heart failure will result. medication to resolve the pain is needed if the patient’s heart rate is to slow down. Medication for shock, antibiotics and electrolytes are all vital in stabilizing the patient.
ALSO FIRST: THE HEART RHYTHM IS ASSESSED AND STABILIZED
There is a special very dangerous rhythm problem, called a "premature ventricular contraction" or "pvc," associated with bloat and it must be ruled out. If it is present, intravenous medications are needed to stabilize the rhythm. Since this rhythm problem may not be evident until even the next day continual EKG monitoring may be necessary. Disturbed heart rhythm already present at the beginning of treatment is associated with a 38% mortality rate.
Getting the bloated dog's stomach decompressed and reversing the shock is an adventure in itself but the work is not yet half finished.
SURGERY
All bloated dogs, once stable, should have surgery. Without surgery, the damage done inside cannot be assessed or repaired plus bloat may recur at any point, even within the next few hours and the above adventure must be repeated. Surgery, called gastrpexy, allows the stomach to be tacked into normal position so that it may never again twist. Without gastropexy, the recurrence rate of bloat may be as high as 75%!

Assessment of the internal damage is also very important to recovery. If there is a section of dying tissue on the stomach wall, this must be discovered and removed or the dog will die despite the heroics described above. Also, the spleen, which is located adjacent to the stomach may twist with the stomach. The spleen may require removal, too.
If the tissue damage is so bad that part of the stomach must be removed, the mortality rate jumps to 28 - 38%.
If the tissue damage is so bad that the spleen must be removed, the mortality rate is 32 - 38%.

After the expense and effort of the stomach decompression, it is tempting to forgo the further expense of surgery. However, consider that the next time your dog bloats, you may not be there to catch it in time and, according the study described below, without surgery there is a 24% mortality rate and a 76% chance of re-bloating at some point. The best choice is to finish the treatment that has been started and have the abdomen explored. If the stomach can be surgically tacked into place, recurrence rate drops to 6%.
RESULTS OF A STATISTICAL STUDY
In 1993, a statistical study involving 134 dogs with gastric dilatation and volvulus was conducted by the School of Veterinary Medicine in Hanover, Germany.
Out of 134 dogs that came into the hospital with this condtion:
•	10% died or were euthanized prior to surgery (factors involved included expense of treatment, severity/advancement of disease etc.)

•	33 dogs were treated with decompression and no surgery. Of these dogs, 8 (24%) died or were euthanized within the next 48 hours due to poor response to treatment. (Six of these 8 had actually re-bloated).

•	Of the dogs that did not have surgical treatment but did survive to go home, 76% had another episode of gastric dilatation and volvulus eventually.

•	88 dogs were treated with both decompression and surgery. Of these dogs, 10% (9 dogs) died in surgery, 18% (16 dogs) died in the week after surgery, 71.5% (63 dogs) went home in good condition. Of the dogs that went home in good condition, 6% (4 dogs) had a second episode of bloat later in life.

•	In this study 66.4% of the bloated dogs were male and 33.6% were female. Most dogs were between ages 7 and 12 years old. The German Shepherd dog and the Boxer appeared to have a greater risk for bloating than did other breeds. 
Meyer-Lindenberg A., Harder A., Fehr M., Luerssen D., Brunnberg L. Treatment of gastric dilatation-volvulus and a rapid method for prevention of relapse in dogs: 134 cases (1988-1991) Journal of the AVMA, Vol 23, No 9, Nov 1 1993, 1301-1307.
In is crucially important that the owners of big dogs be aware of this condition and prepared for it. Know where to take your dog during overnight or Sunday hours for emergency care. Avoid exercising your dog after a large meal. Know what to watch for. Enjoy the special friendship a large dog provides but at the same time be aware of the large dog's special needs and concerns.
Emergency Treatment of Suspected GDV 
The first thing to remember in any emergency situation is to remain calm, your dog's life will depend on your clear thinking and quick actions. 
1.	Whenever possible, call the hospital and warn them that you'll be bringing in a bloat case so that they can save precious time by making the necessary preparations while you're on your way. Be sure to indicate your approximate arrival time because some clinics close at set hours regardless of your situation. 
2.	If you're not close to the hospital (or if someone else can drive), and your dog's stomach is distended, you may want to initiate emergency first aid by gently passing a well-lubricated tube to decompress the stomach (see EMERGENCY FIRST AID FOR BLOAT section). If you do not have a tube readily available, some people have reported success with the use of a garden hose (with the ends cut off), lubricated with water. Always pass a tube down slowly and gently--push it down an inch or so at a time, and only after the dog has swallowed, without gagging, the section you have already pushed in. NEVER force a tube down--you can do severe damage to the internal organs! If tube passage is unsuccessful due to internal obstruction, then it means the stomach has probably twisted. Get to the hospital as quickly as possible. 
3.	It is important that the veterinarian first treat the dog for shock with intravenous fluid and drug therapy. The veterinarian may also start a continuous electrocardiogram (EKG) to monitor cardiac functions. 
4.	Generally, the initial goals of emergency veterinary treatment of GDV are to decompress the stomach and to restore and support the dog's blood circulation. If the stomach is twisted, the veterinarian may have to determine the location of the stomach and cut an opening into the stomach through the side of the body to release the gas. 
5.	The second step is to determine (by X-rays either before or after decompression) whether simple dilation (bloat) or GDV (bloat with torsion) has occurred. This is very important because simple dilation can often be managed without emergency surgery, but if the stomach has twisted, emergency surgery may be required to reposition the stomach. 

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Physiological Changes Caused by GDV 
GDV results in physiological changes that create a medical and surgical emergency. Changes are both localized (limited to the organs involved, i.e. the stomach and the spleen) and systemic (affecting other vital organs in the body). Increased pressure inside the stomach causes blood flow there to slow and eventually stop. Severe torsion can tear the short branches of the artery between the spleen and the stomach, thus increasing the potential for necrosis (death of cells) of the stomach wall. Displacement of the spleen can cause blood clots in the blood vessels there or even torsion of the spleen. Obstruction of blood flow from these abdominal organs to the heart causes systemic changes. The rapid and often massive reduction of blood returning to the heart reduces cardiac output and therefore deprives tissues of sufficient nutrients and oxygen. Furthermore, the abdominal organs become engorged with blood, which makes the intestines more permeable to the bacteria and bacterial products within them, thus releasing bacteria and their toxic substances (endotoxin) into the bloodstream. The reduced blood flow to the heart, coupled with the circulation of substances released from the pancreas, spleen and other organs severely impair cardiac functions, and cause cardiac arrhythmia (irregular heartbeats). Blood flow to the kidneys falls which increases the risk of acute kidney damage. A condition called Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (DIC, a life threatening bleeding disorder of the blood clotting mechanism) may occur. Finally, the stomach and/or intestines may perforate, resulting in the contamination of the abdominal cavity with stomach contents and bacteria. A combination of septic, endotoxic and hypovolemic (abnormally low blood circulation) shocks; septic peritonitis (acute and painful inflammation of the membranes lining the abdominal and organ walls); and DIC (bleeding disorder) with multiple organ failures; results in death within hours of the initial signs of bloat. 

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Surgery for GDV 
The immediate aim of surgery is to return the stomach to its normal position and to evaluate it and the spleen for signs of irreversible damage (such as tissue necrosis--cell death). Long-standing or severe twisting may occasionally cause necrosis in portions of the esophagus (the food canal down the throat)--if so, chances for survival is poor. If gastric perforation at any site (perforation of the organ wall) has occurred, then the chances for survival is extremely poor, and euthanasia should be seriously contemplated. Barring any sign of irreversible damage, the veterinarian should perform gastropexy (attaching a flap of stomach wall to an acceptable part of the abdomen in order to help keep the stomach from twisting in the future.) There are a number of techniques of gastropexy, and debate continues as to which method is more effective. The fact that there is still heated debate in the techniques indicates that none is currently totally satisfactory. Again, you may want to discuss it with your veterinarian before there is an emergency. We will briefly describe a few of the more popular techniques :Tube gastropexy - A large balloon catheter is used to secure the stomach to the right abdominal wall. The catheter creates strong adhesions (fibrous scar tissues formed by the body that join normally unconnected parts). The tube must remain in place for 7 to 10 days following surgery. The presence of the tube allows access to decompress the stomach if bloat recurs during the first 10 days. It also permits tube feeding if the dog refuses to eat for more than a couple of days after surgery. Tube gastropexy is the easiest and faster gastropexy technique, and is often used in extremely weak dogs who may not survive an extended period of being anesthetized. The main argument against this technique is that it may not help keep the stomach in place as well as some other gastropexy techniques. The most common complications of tube gastropexy are premature tube loosening and inflammation of the skin where the tube exits the abdomen. Skin inflammation is usually caused by leakage of gastric contents around the tube. Occasionally, the balloon of the catheter becomes eroded by the acidic gastric fluid, causing the tube to dislodge early. This usually happens after 5 to 7 days as the dog becomes more active. Typically, no further treatment is required. However, if the tube dislodges during the first 48 hours, it may be necessary to replace the tube to prevent the risk of contamination of the abdomen with gastric juice. Belt-loop gastropexy - A flap of the stomach wall is used to attach the stomach to the right abdominal wall by braiding the stomach flap to strands of the abdominal wall. This technique takes longer than the tube technique, but may create a stronger bond. However, argument against it is similar to that of the tube's--it may not help keep the stomach in place as well as some other gastropexy techniques. Circumcostal gastropexy - A flap of the stomach wall is used to attach the stomach to the last rib on the right side. The argument in favor of this technique is that the rib is a more rigid and stable part of the anatomy, and will likely keep the stomach in place better than the abdominal wall will. There is a 5% chance of recurrence following gastropexy. Most of the recurrences are simple dilation (bloat without torsion), and respond well to decompression (passing of stomach tube). However, a full blown recurrence of GDV may cause or follow the breakdown of the gastropexy. Therefore, medical and dietary management after GDV is important to help prevent recurrence. In addition to gastropexy, some veterinarians perform pyloroplasty to help prevent recurrence of GDV. pyloroplasty is an operation in which the pylorus (the outlet from the stomach) is widened to ensure the free passage of food into the intestine. In clinical studies, researchers reported a much higher number of complications, during the first week after surgery, in dogs that underwent this procedure as compared to dogs that underwent gastropexy alone. 

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Post-Surgery Care and Common Complications 
Some dogs may continue to have poor circulation and therefore shock despite receiving large amounts of intra-venous fluids. Some dogs may become anemic or hypoproteinemic (abnormally low protein in the blood), and may require blood transfusion or plasma administration. These dogs should be reevaluated frequently by the veterinarian. Cardiac arrhythmia (irregular heartbeat) is common following an acute episode of GDV. The veterinarian should perform frequent EKGs to monitor the heartbeat during the first week. In fact, continuous EKG monitoring for 48 to 72 hours is required in acute cases. Anti-arrhythmic drugs may be necessary to treat this condition. Gastric necrosis (cell death) and perforation can occur up to a week after surgery, especially if resection (surgical removal of part or all of a diseased organ) was performed. The veterinarian must monitor the stomach fluids closely both during surgery and during the first 5 days after surgery : 
1.	A pale green to gray fluid indicates arterial (blood vessel) damage caused by ischemic (insufficient blood supply to an organ) or necrotic (dead cells) regions which will require resectioning (surgical removal of part of the organ). 
2.	A black or blue/black fluid suggest venous occlusion (blockage in the veins that carry blood back to the heart) and intramural hemorrhage (internal bleeding within the organ). Some of these lesions are not reversible. 
3.	Areas with compromised blood supply but do not require resection are dark red. 
4.	Researchers also recommend that color be reevaluated 10 to 15 minutes after repositioning and decompression of the stomach, before completing the surgery. 
If gastric necrosis and perforation occurs, euthanasia should be seriously considered. Food and water is typically withheld for the first 48 to 72 hours after gastropexy (bloat surgery), then multiple small meals are fed. Once the dog returns home, he/she should be fed smaller-than-usual portions of bland food frequently (3 times daily), and should not be exercised within 2 hours after meals. Veterinary attention should be sought immediately if there are signs of recurrence. 

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Prevention 
There are no sure-fire ways to prevent or predict GDV. Here is a list of suggestions : 
1.	Feed 2 or 3 smaller meals daily (as opposed to 1 large meal). 
2.	Any changes in the diet should be made gradually, over a period of a week. 
3.	Vigorous exercise, excitement and stress should be avoided from 1 hour before to 2 hours after meals. 
4.	Excessive drinking should also be avoided. 
5.	Avoid feeding food that are known to cause flatulence (gas), e.g. soy, beans, peas, onions, beet pulp, etc. 
6.	Some veterinarians advocate the feeding of large pieces of fresh/raw fruits and vegetables (e.g. apples, oranges, carrots) 3 to 4 times a week. The reason is that commercial dog food lacks the appropriate amount of roughage that a dog needs in order for the stomach to function properly. 
7.	Some people give their dogs over-the-counter anti-flatulent (Simethecone products, such as Gas X®), just before or after they put their dogs through stressful situations. It may also be handy when the dog appears to have a lot of gas. Simethecone works by breaking down the surface tensions of the small air bubbles in the stomach, thus causing bigger bubbles to form, which theoretically, are easier for the stomach to pass. 
8.	On dogs known to be highly susceptible to GDV (e.g. ones that have already bloated before) discuss the use of medicinal prevention (such as Metoclopramide Hydrochloride, or Reglan®) with your veterinarian. The medicine is widely used in human after abdominal surgery to combat painful intestinal flatulence. It chemically decompresses the stomach and intestines, thus forcing the gas out. Like all drugs, there are side effects, so the benefits and problems of long term use should be carefully weighed and discussed with your veterinarian. 

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REFERENCES 
•	__________, "Gastric Dilation-Volvulus in Dogs", Morris Animal Foundation, pp 11-12, 1987. 
•	Brockman D.J., BVSc, CVR, CSAO, MRCVS, "Gastric Dilation-Volvulus Syndrome in the Dog", Pedigree Breeder Forum, Vol 3 # 3, 19-23, 1994. 
•	Greenfield C.L. et al., Small Animal Clin Sci, Michigan State Univ. "Significance of the Heineke-Mikulicz Pyloroplasty in the Treatment of Gastric Dilation-Volvulus", Vet Surgery 18:22-26, 1989. 
•	Hall J.A., College of Veterinary Medicine, Colorado State University, "Gastric Dilation-Volvulus is Associated With Altered Gastric Electro-Electromechanical Activity", Proc Ann ACVIM Forum, 1990. 
•	Lieb M.S. et al., College Vet Med, Virginia Tech, "Suspected Chronic Gastric Volvulus in A Dog With Normal Gastric Emptying of Liquids", 191:699-700, 1987. 
•	Matthiesen D.T., Anim Med Center, New York, "Partial Gastrectomy as Treatment of Gastric Volvulus: Results in 30 Dogs", Vet Surg 14:185-193, 1985. 
•	Whitney W.O. et al., Westbury Animal Hospital, "Belt-Loop Gastropexy: Technique and Surgical Results in 20 Dogs", JAAHA 25:75-83, 1989 
•	Woolfson J.M. and Kostolich M., Sch Vet Med, Tufts Univ, "Circumcostal Gastropexy: Clinical Use of the Technique in Dogs With Gastric Dilation-Volvulus", JAAHA 22:825-830. 

Picture of A Bloating 5-Year Old Male Standard Poodle 
Source: D.J. Brockman, BVSc, CVR, CSAO, MRCVS 
"Gastric Dilation-Volvulus Syndrome in the Dog", 
Pedigree Breeder Forum, Vol. 3 # 3, 19-23, 1994. In case you should wonder what a bloating dog looks like, the picture shows a bloating 5-year old Standard Poodle. Notice: 
•	The dog looks like he is pregnant. 
•	He has already been started on IV fluids. 
•	Other than panting, the dog does not appear distressed. 
This is a point you should remember -- dogs are stoic and have very high pain tolerance. Sometimes they don't show distress until they're in critical conditions. Therefore as a watchful owner, you must rely on subtle indicators such as changes in behavioral patterns to alert you to potential problems with your dog. 


Bloat First Aid 

Just the basics on this page. 
1.	Emergency First Aid for Bloat 
2.	The Emergency Kit 
3.	More Information About Bloat 

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Emergency First Aid for Bloat 
There is no substitute for prompt, competent veterinary attention! If you can realistically expect to receive veterinary treatment within 5 to 10 minutes, call the veterinarian and go--don't bother with first aid! On the other hand, if you think it'll take at least 20 minutes to get there, then the few minutes you spend administering first aid could make the difference between life or death. The ideal situation is to have someone else drive you to the clinic while you administer first aid. If you are having any problems with the technique, don't waste time trying to figure it out--get the dog to the hospital ! ! 

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Emergency First Aid 
1.	Stay Calm. 
2.	Call hospital and tell them you're coming with a bloat case. Give approximate arrival time. 
3.	
Take 1/2 inch tube and measure and mark the approximate length of tube you'll need to pass. 
o	Run the tube along the outside of your dog's body, tracing the contours of where the tube would go if you were passing it. 
o	Run the tube to just behind the last rib--that's where the stomach should be--mark the spot. 
This will give you an idea as to whether the tube has successfully been passed into the stomach when you're actually doing it. 

5.	
Pry open dog's mouth and position wood block behind the canines and between the upper and lower jaws, so that the 3/4 inch hole is facing you when you're standing in front of the dog's face. The dog will struggle, but you must keep the block in position. 

7.	
Use the nylon cord to tie the block to the dog's lower jaw. Be sure the block is tied firmly in place. 

8.	Lightly lubricate about 3 inches of the outside of the vinyl tube (the end that you'll be passing). 
9.	Turn the tube so any natural curl in the hose is downward. Slide the lubricated tube through the wood block towards the dog's throat, in a slightly downward direction. 
10.	
Once the tube gets to the throat, push gently but firmly, about an inch at a time. Let the dog swallow what you've passed before pushing more in. The first resistance point you'll feel is the esophagus. If t


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## BERT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Thank you, I found this very intersting and helpful. My dog is doing remarkably well considering what he went through. I think I am very luck that he is still with me. I am still in a quandry about how much to feed him at any one time. I try to do 3 to 5 times aday. I have started giving him meat rolls, canned food and just a little kibble (when he will eat it - he is spoiled on the wet foods) I just dont really know how much is enough. 

Should you mix canned food in with kibble? Feed it separately?


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## scrunk

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

My dog bloated at 2 years old, full blown stomach twist all because of mixing water and exercise. He did survive a gastropexy and it was a long recovery, but I have to be extra cautious/paranoid now and I don't mind if it will save his life. My vet said even though his stomach is tacked, he can still bloat which can be deadly even without the twisting/torsion of the stomach.Here are a few things my veterinarian told me to do and not to do:

1. *Never, ever again feed the dog a large meal* My dog is finiky about food and use to only eat late at night even though he had food available all day. Too much food at once can trigger the bloat, and from there the stomach can twist...I feed 2 cups max at a time and have him eat 2 times a day. I will give a cup late at night if he still seems hungry. 

2. *Never exercise the dog before or after a meal* . A leisure walk is ok, but no running, jumping, rough, or strenous exercise, not even fetch. My dog eats at 8am, he gets a leisure stroll at lunch, and no hard activity until 5:30 at night. Once he comes in to eat at 8-9 pm, he doesn't get any more exercise until the following day at lunch. It had been 5 hours since a feeding when my dog bloated, so I wait an extrememly long amount of time...like I said, PARANOID.

3. *Never let the dog drink lots of water at once* . If you don't let him/her get overheated then this should be simple. My dog is so high drive that I have to force him to rest to prevent him from getting too hot and thirsty.

4. *Know your dog well. Be able to determine anything unusal such as anxiousness, trying to vomit but can't, inability to get comfortable, etc.* My dog had all of these symptoms, but he also seemed like he was in an instant panic the second sypmtoms started. It only took about 3 minutes before the distention in his stomach was appearant. Thank goodness I knew what was happening and got him the the ER vet within 15 minutes. Time is always crucial in this case.

The night my dog went through this was so traumatic I could right you a book on bloat/torsion. The emergency vet almost killed him, did not operate and sent me off to "find someone" early that morning. My regular vet had to wait 2 weeks before he could do the gastropexy because his bowels had been punctured by the ER vet and the risk of infection was too high. My vet told me that his stomach could twist again in his sleep at that point, so I had to watch him 24/7. Thank God he is a strong willed guy.

I do agree with a few things I read above, and one is to get a bloat kit and learn from a vet how to use it. Second, I would definately consider a preventative gastropexy. My dog had no known bloaters in is pedigree and he still did it.

Also, there are obviously hundreds of conflicting ideas on bloat...why, breed, age, type of food, etc. One thing I know to be untrue is that it is not more common in older dogs. Mine was 2, and one of the rescue pups was only 5 months and he unfortunately did not make it. 

Hope some of this helps.


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## newbiedave

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

http://www.hbalaw.com/KFA/20signsofbloat.pdf  

Useful info for the thread...


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## scotia2k7

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Hey Im so sorry to hear of your dogs' troubles, but I really dont' know of "bloat" - its not prevalent in UK - unless its the same concept as "colic"?. I checked several links through this thread - but would really appreciate further clarification - since if the two terms are similar - I might have some info to think over?

Scotia.


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## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Scotia - same concept as "colic" I'd guess.


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## chruby

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

All I've heard it to not let them exercies an hour before or after eating, moisten the food and give a probiotic. I do all these things as well.


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## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

scotia, 

I think that colic is a more general term for bloat. Bloat in a K9 is a medical emergency, and it very often turns to torsion (volvulus), and then is often fatal. I believe, and could be wrong, that colic can have varying severities. 

http://www.equusite.com/articles/health/healthColicFacts.shtml


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## bearlasmom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

hwy guys just read the answers to th ethread. it may be a few days since the last post by lisa but when a dogs life is put in our hands i guess there is never a bad day right?

What i meant is this. I wrote this and looked up all that info because i was unfortunate to have our old wolf 15 yrs die from the disease. It was horible, extremely painful on the old man, hit him extremely fast (he was down in a hour of it starting) i never ever want to see this again happen on any dog. 
Bearla has always had belly probelms right from day 1 that we had her and we now have her on a perscription diet (science diet ID) and it is known to be great on all dogs that have tummy problems. Our vet has stated that they found during studies, the dogs who were on this food from the time that they began to show belly problems, never went on to full blown torsion or bloat. 

the food is extremely expensive as some on this forum can tell you but it is so worth it. When bearlas belly begins to act up i also make a home made reciepe i call slump. a few people on this forum have tried in and loved it. 

If anyone eve wants it just PM me and it will be forwarded to you. 
May all you baies live long, fabulous and painfree lives.


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## Dogrunner

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I'm certainly not offering this suggestion as a magic cure, but I want to bring it up. When I first got into German Shepards, my vet told me to free feed because he believed it prevented bloat. I have free fed ever since and have never had a dog bloat. 

When you look at the lists of what you can do to prevent bloat, all of them have "Don't feed only one meal a day" and most caution not to let the dog eat too quickly. Free feeding eliminates both of these hazards. When food is available 24/7, the dogs munch small amounts throughout the day so there's never any large amounts of food in their stomachs. 

I do think there are some dogs that are genetically inclined to bloat and I wish there was a data base that tracked the causes of death for registered dogs so that lines with high rates of cancer, bloating, and other serious diseases could be identified. Not that environment doesn't play a role, of course, but a consistant high rate in one line would certainly be a huge red flag.


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## Romance

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

if you keep BEANO on hand, when bloat happens you gve one of these to your dog, it will give you the extra time that you,dog and vet need. often times its the time that the vet needs to save your dog


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## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I just learned today that when dog's stomach is tacked, there are roughly three ways of doing it. The old way, almost always eventually degraded. There is a "loop" way that doesn't come undone, but apparently there have been problems with this (no details given) so it's possible that not many people are still doing this. Then there is a third way that involves two tacks so that there should be more scar tissue to keep the tack in place, but that can also come undone. 

Having a dog with a stomach tack due to bloat, I find this kinda important to know!

Looking at that link, it looks like they are massaging Stomach 36? If so, that point is great for a variety of digestive disorders...wouldn't have though to use it for bloat, great idea.


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## Keeyah

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Diesel has a large chest and I am feeding him 3 meals a day and waiting for at least 1 hour before or after a meal for any exercise. During this hour he has to be calm, if he is trying to play them we wait longer. We also wait longer if the weather is hot (panting means taking in more air?)

Does this sound ok? My mum thinks I am too extreme but I am terrified of him bloating especially at night as I am a heavy slepper.


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## fkeeley

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Lisa, you are doing the right thing. You can never be too careful when it comes to bloat!
Fatima


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## Tina & Dave

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Yesterday our Ben bloated.... thankfully I have read so much on bloat here, that I was prepared. We have now had 2 opinions and getting a third from a surgeon from Guelph this am. Xrays show Ben's stomach has flipped however he is getting normal blood flow to all areas and his symptoms have now diminished and some gone completely. We are thankful that no surgery has to be done yet. I will certainly be monitoring this thread for awhile hoping like many others someone has the answer to some of the questions we have. 

Tina


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## Saphire

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Give Bennie hugs for me, poor boy. Soooooo relieved he is ok and is continuing to do well.

Cathy


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## lish91883

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Lisa, also when its really hot and he's out playing, you can give him a gas X. Give him an adult dose before he goes out and this will help break up the air bubbles while panting.


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## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Yeah, Lisa, i think you are excessive. Excersize isn't related to bloat. They used to think that it was but it isn't.


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## lish91883

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Causes

According to the links below, it is thought that the following may be the primary contributors to bloat. To calculate a dog's lifetime risk of bloat according to Purdue University's School of Veterinary Medicine, click here.

Stress Dog shows, mating, whelping, boarding, change in routine, new dog in household, etc.
Although purely anecdotal, we've heard of too many cases where a dog bloated after a 3rd dog was brought into the household (perhaps due to stress regarding pack order). New 
Activities that result in gulping air 

Eating habits, especially... Elevated food bowls 
Rapid eating 
Eating dry foods that contain citric acid as a preservative (the risk is even worse if the owner moistens the food) New 
Eating dry foods that contain fat among the first four ingredients New 
Insufficient Trypsin (a pancreatic enzyme present in meat) 
Dilution of gastric juices necessary for complete digestion by drinking too much water before or after eating New 
Eating gas-producing foods (especially soybean products, brewer's yeast, and alfalfa) New 

Exercise before and especially after eating 
Heredity (especially having a first-degree relative who has bloated) 
Build & Physical Characteristics Having a deep and narrow chest compared to other dogs of the same breed 
Older dogs 
Males 
Being underweight 

Disposition Fearful or anxious temperament 
Prone to stress 
History of aggression toward other dogs or people 






Prevention
Some of the advice in the links below for reducing the chances of bloat are:

Avoid highly stressful situations. If you can't avoid them, try to minimize the stress as much as possible. Be extra watchful.
Can be brought on by dog shows, mating, whelping, boarding, new dog in household, change in routine, etc. 
Do not use an elevated food bowl 
Do not exercise for several hours (e.g., 2 or 3) before and especially after eating
Particularly don't permit your dog to roll over, which could cause the stomach to twist 
Do not permit rapid eating 
Feed 2 or 3 meals daily, instead of just one 
Do not give water one hour before or after a meal
It dilutes the gastric juices necessary for proper digestion, which leads to gas production. 
Always keep a product with simethicone (e.g., Mylanta Gas (not regular Mylanta), Phazyme, Gas-X, etc.) on hand to treat gas symptoms.
Some recommend giving your dog simethicone immediately if your dog burps more than once or shows other signs of gas. New
Some report relief of gas symptoms with 1/2 tsp of nutmeg or the homeopathic remedy Nux moschata 30 
Allow access to fresh water at all times, except before and after meals 
Make meals a peaceful, stress-free time 
When switching dog food, do so gradually (allow several weeks) 
Do not feed dry food exclusively 
Feed a high-protein (>30%) diet, particularly of raw meat 
If feeding dry food, avoid foods that contain fat as one of the first four ingredients New 
If feeding dry foods, avoid foods that contain citric acid New
If you must use a dry food containing citric acid, do not pre-moisten the food 
If feeding dry food, select one that includes rendered meat meal with bone product among the first four ingredients New 
Reduce carbohydrates as much as possible (e.g., typical in many commercial dog biscuits) 
Feed a high-quality diet
Whole, unprocessed foods are especially beneficial 
Feed adequate amount of fiber (for commercial dog food, at least 3.00% crude fiber) 
Add an enzyme product to food (e.g., Prozyme) 
Include herbs specially mixed for pets that reduce gas (e.g., N.R. Special Blend) 
Avoid brewer's yeast, alfalfa, and soybean products 
Promote an acidic environment in the intestine
Some recommend 1-2 Tbs of Aloe Vera Gel or 1 Tbs of apple cider vinegar given right after each meal 
Promote "friendly" bacteria in the intestine, e.g. from yogurt or supplemental acidophilus
Avoids fermentation of carbohydrates, which can cause gas quickly. This is especially a concern when antibiotics are given since they tend to reduce levels of "friendly" bacteria. 

And perhaps most importantly, know your dog well so you'll know when your dog just isn't acting normally.


----------



## lish91883

*Re: Help needed with bloat*



> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereYeah, Lisa, i think you are excessive. Excersize isn't related to bloat. They used to think that it was but it isn't.


She isn't being excessive. I would like to know where you read this.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I do believe that exercise is related to bloat, and that's exactly how our boy bloated -- heavy exercise after drinking too much water. We were at training. The water followed by exercise was the trigger, though I believe he was going to bloat. In fact, I think he was having some minor torsioning the week before the incident, I just didn't recognize it until it was full torsion with bloat.

I think it's more the exercise after a meal, and maybe shortly before a meal....I don't think they need to wait an hour before a meal unless it was something extremely strenuous and the dog is really worked up.

Something that's not mentioned typically, but one study of dogs that bloated found a high percentage of them had a certain type of nose mites, which encouraged the dogs to breathe through their mouth.

Also, it's not necessarily a large chest which puts a dog at risk. I'd have to do a search, but I think the dogs that are more narrow with deep chests tend to bloat -- narrow from side to side, and deep from top to bottom -- it was some statistical survey....which actually describes our GSD perfectly, but not our trainer's boy who also bloated years ago.


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

It was either the Purdue study or something in WDJ that said excersize before and after eating wasn't a contributing factor. Their have been a couple out that confirm the elevated food bowls but that may be because the survey was, I heard, done on Great Danes.

The underlying truth is that we have not got it pinned down. If we did have a sure fire cure, we'd all by it!


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*



> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereThe underlying truth is that we have not got it pinned down. If we did have a sure fire cure, we'd all by it!


Ditto that!


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

OK a thousand appologies for the gramatical errors -- "There" not "their"; "buy" not "by." That's what happens at 1 am.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

It was the WDJ that said exercise before and after eating, elevating food and adding water did not help prevent bloat. 

My friends' dog bloated after their other dog died suddenly of cancer. It was clearly stress related for him. But I have known many gsds who bloated and other than that one there wasn't a clear cause. 

I really think the best we can do is know the symptoms and rush right over to the vet if, god forbid, we see them!


----------



## ozzymama

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Horses often get colic, which can be similar to dog bloat, twisting of the stomach, because of that after exercise a horse is never allowed as much water as they want, we allow three good gulps and take the water away and they don't get grain and sweet feed until long after training or racing. Hay too is limited immediatly after exercise. Also not given on the day of a race. Colic in horses is oft caused by a solid impaction, inability to rid the stomach of gas and of course because horses have relatively small stomachs.


----------



## Talyn

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I unfortunatly lost two GSDs to bloat, my last one 2 months ago. She started bad on a weekend night, where she was outside trying to throw up and crying pretty bad. She passed it and threw up, but would also throw up more and more during the next couple of days until one night where she had it again. I put her in the police car and rushed her to the ER vet. They were able to stabilize her, but knew nothing of what was going on. They knew VERY LITTLE of what I just glanced at in this thread. The ER vet pinpointed that it appeared to be a gas build up twisting her stomach and moving her spleen over. They wanted to do surgery to do a bio, but we said no due to her age (8 turning 9). I had her taken to another vet for a second opinion, and they agreed that it would keep happening and she was put down. I was very very upset about this, but what really upsets me know is the vets did not mention anything about how to treat, even mention "bloat". I did not know what this was until reading this thread, and realizing roxie fell under all the same things listed.

My other dog, sarge, who died years ago had the same issues (well a lot more) but died in front of us in the backyard. He was only between 1-2 years old.

We thought this has to be genetic, because they came from the same father.

Did my vet make the wrong decision in putting her down? Could she of been saved??

I have a new puppy now and want to make sure he does not go through the same thing, so I hope we can get closer to an answer.
-Jon


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Jon, my Max had some wierd vomit problems for about a week before he actually went into bloat/torsion. When he finally did bloat, I probably had him in surgery within the hour (I was very fortunate). I'm thinking that I've heard the longer they wait to be operated on (once they've twisted), the less chance of they will have of recovery (because the organs will increasingly be oxygen and nutrient starved). And it is a very individual thing with each dog.

While dogs with this problem may continue to bloat because of something goofy in their digestive system, at surgery, most dogs have their stomach tacked so that they won't twist again, which really is the more deadly problem. 

In reading what you have said about your girl, I don't know if there is a way of knowing if she could have been saved when you brought her in, particularly when you took her for the second opinion. HOWEVER, I really have to question the abilities/staff of both of your ERs....this seems like Dog 101 to me (at least to an ER). And I hate saying that, because I know how finding that out would affect me. I don't know if your girl had a chance. But is does sound like these vets didn't give her the opportunity.

I'm so sorry you lost her. I know you must still be grieving....


----------



## borzoimom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

That is true with liver damage. You will have to monitor closely. Also tissue is slow to recover. You might want to put the dog on canned " I/D" diet til until totally healed. Yes- the dog will loose weight but it lets the muscles and stomach lining heal.


----------



## BandCsMom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I just had a friend of mine lose a GSD(not even 2 yrs.) we think it was bloat. He had many of the symptoms, vomiting, could not even keep water down,foaming/salivating at the mouth, digging a hole to hide in and just not acting like himself. She said it started late last night and I spoke to her this morning and said it sounds like it might be bloat, I would get to emergency!!! She went, but he never made it there. The hard part for me is I have his brother from another litter. He was a beautiful boy, I just can't believe this horrible disease happens so fast! Now I am scared for my dogs lives!!!! I use elevated bowls, should I switch? Should I not give any water with meals?


----------



## arycrest

*Re: Help needed with bloat*



> Originally Posted By: BandCsMomI just had a friend of mine lose a GSD(not even 2 yrs.) we think it was bloat. He had many of the symptoms, vomiting, could not even keep water down,foaming/salivating at the mouth, digging a hole to hide in and just not acting like himself. She said it started late last night and I spoke to her this morning and said it sounds like it might be bloat, I would get to emergency!!! She went, but he never made it there. The hard part for me is I have his brother from another litter. He was a beautiful boy, I just can't believe this horrible disease happens so fast! Now I am scared for my dogs lives!!!! I use elevated bowls, should I switch? Should I not give any water with meals?


I'm so sorry to hear about your dog's brother, my condolences to his family. 

While I'm sure you know this, and hopefully your dog will never bloat/torsion, but if he does, please remember that immediate veterinary care is of utmost importance. It's something that you can't take a "wait and see" approach to treatment, it's a true life and death medical emergency. 

I've heard many theories about what to do to prevent bloat, I'm not sure if there is any right, or wrong, way to feed the dog. Some people say yes, elevate the bowls, others say no. Some people say feed with water and/or wet food, others say no. Some people say don't exercise your dog before or after feeding, others say it's okay. Some people say to use enzymes in the food, others say it doesn't do any good. I've done it different ways and sadly, I've had three dogs bloat with torsion (they all had angels on their shoulders, had successful surgery, and lived).

I can't prove it, but I've always felt that there may be a hereditary tendency for some dogs to bloat w/torsion, and something unknown triggers it in some dogs, but not others. A very unscientific theory on my part.

Good luck and I hope your boy stays healthy and free from bloat.


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Jon,
Possibly she could have been saved IF you had opted for the operation first time out. My old girl was 8 or 9 when she bloated - We were at the vets within the hour - maybe within the 1/2 hour of it dawning on me what was happening. I only ran one light. I knew there was no messing with this although the vet pointed out that the survival rate wasn't good and kept telling me every time the price went up. I kept saying "just save my dog." She's 12 now. She would have died without surgery.
It helped because I knew what bloat was and what the options were - if it had been something that I didn't recoginize, I might have hesitated. 
Recognizing the symptoms and knowing the options before the need arose helped me out.


----------



## CurlySu717

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

My GSD Dixie was 11 when she bloated. My family has had GSDs for 4 generations now and we had never even heard of it. We couldn't figure out what was wrong with her, she just wasn't acting right -- pacing, ears back, coughing (not heaving or vomiting). By the time we got her to the emergency clinic she was gone -- she died in my sister's arms in the car. It was weird; we hadn't done anything different that day and I can't remember anything specific that might have triggered it.

I'm about to adopt a GSD from a rescue society, and I'll never live with myself if this dog bloats and I don't catch it. 

What is a bloat kit? I'm an RN and if I can put feeding tubes in people's noses, I'm sure I could do the same on a dog if I had to. It sounds like it must be very similar -- just a tube placed through the mouth or nose and into the stomach, right? Where do I get a kit? From reading the thread, it sounds like it's hard to prevent, so I'm thinking perhaps the best thing to do is be prepared to treat it and get the dog to the vet.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I think one of the problems with a bloat kit (tube to express gas) is if there is also torsion?


----------



## fkeeley

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

i had thought about getting a bloat kit also, but then discussing it with my vet, i figured that the 15 min ride to the vet was quicker than trying to get the tube down his throat. My vet said that it could take 2 people to get the tube in. If i was by myself i'm not sure if i could do it and to keep trying instead of driving might cost his life. So i didn't buy the tube afterall.

Fatima


----------



## Timber1

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I have never had a problem with my GSD. However, my son has two labs that eat like pigs and one had bloat. His answer was a dog food dish with cyclinders in it that prevent the dog from eating to fast.

Apparently, the thing has worked well because Fleet Farm, a regional chain has ordered 1,000 of these dishes for next year.

If I should not be advertising any products on this site, the moderator can delete. However, if you wish to try the dish send me a personal E Mail. I have absolutely no financial interests, but if it helps the dog, fine.


----------



## GSDLoverII

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Brake-Fast dog bowl:

http://www.fourleggedlinks.com/pet-shopping/the-brake-fast-dog-bowl/


----------



## LisaT

*citric vs citrus*

I posted this in another thread, but thought it should be here too:

I haven't completely verified this yet, but the site it's from is typically right on: http://www.westonaprice.org/msg/msgfree.html

<span style="color: #990000">The food ingredient "citric acid" provides us with a good example of why MSG-sensitive people with little tolerance are having difficulty staying well. Many people believe that "citric acid" comes from citrus fruits, and since most people can tolerate citrus fruits, "citric acid" should not be a problem. However, most of the "citric acid" used today is made from corn rather than from citrus fruits. The Archer Daniels Midland Company (ADM) is a major producer of "citric acid."

"Citric acid" is produced by fermentation of crude sugars. When "citric acid" is produced from corn, manufacturers do not take the time or undertake the expense to remove all corn protein. During processing, the remaining protein is hydrolyzed, resulting in some processed free glutamic acid (MSG). "Citric acid" may also interacts with any protein in the food to which it is added, freeing up more glutamic acid.

A visit to the grocery store to read labels will quickly demonstrate that "citric acid" is being widely used in processed foods. Its use appears to be increasing and, as this occurs, it appears that, based on interactions with MSG-sensitive individuals, more and more MSG-sensitive people are reacting to "citric acid." Its uses in food include flavoring, balancing of acid-alkalinity levels, as a preservative, as a firming agent and as an antibacterial agent. Consumers will find no reference to the presence of free glutamic acid on the labels of foods that contain "citric acid." </span>


----------



## angelaw

*Re: citric vs citrus*

Kinda like soy allergies for me. Look at a couple of food labels next time in the grocery store, try to find something that doesn't have soy, soy lechetin, hydrogenated vegetable (aka soy too).


----------



## LisaT

*Re: citric vs citrus*

Yeah, it's a huge problem. My girl is allergic to soy and has this problem too.

I'm just a bit stunned -- how many folks read, preserved with citric acid, without knowing that it's very likely a corn product? I found a site from a corn organization from Iowa stating that much (no amount given) of the citric acid in the US is made from corn sweeteners....Yikes! 

I never really understood how there might be a link to bloat, since I used to think citrus also (been years since I thought about it though). I'm not so surprised now.


----------



## Prinzsalpha

*Re: citric vs citrus*

My Prinz started to bloat last night. Thanks to me downloading the symptoms from this thread I was able to catch it in time. They wanted to keep him overnight for a hefty $1000.00 tag to start and I asked them to treat the symptoms. I caught it early just gas. She then informed me she could give him a vomit shot. I told her to do that. I took him home and other than being tired he seems to be fine. Hes running around the house like nothing happened. 
So thanks to all of you for all your information, I had it on my fridge for easy reference and I needed it yesterday when time is of the essence. It was my fault totally, I gave him this small rolled rawhide. I feel terrible and never again will I give him that.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

*Re: citric vs citrus*

Wow, so glad you caught it in time and he's okay. That must have been very scary!


----------



## GSDoglover53

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

My 11 year old german shepherd had bloat back in January and we almost lost her. I had been hesitant to have the surgery to tack her stomach because she is not a good candidate for surgery due to her age and previous complications from anesthesia. When the doctor told me she could bloat in a day or two or month or two, I opted for the surgery. She did survive it but it took a good week for her to recover. You must have a good surgeon and staff that will closely monitor their recovery period.


----------



## GSDoglover53

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

My 11 year old GSD bloated in January. See my posting. I never heard of a bloat kit. My vet even said that he would have difficulty passing a tube down a dogs throat by himself so I don't know that it's possible to do it yourself, especially if the dog is in distress.


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

The bloat kit, the needle to releif gas - those are things to do if you are a ways away from a vet. They buy you a bit of time to get to the vet. I was ready to insert a needle but the emergency vet staff talked me out of it.


----------



## Sams Mom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I have a question - (new gs owner, never had heard of bloat in a dog before this. I am trying to learn everything I can about it.)
This past Tuesday, Sam was fine in the morning, I fed him his IAMS - he has to be on a low protein food due to kidney problems; about 2 -2 1/2 hours later, I was sitting out with him and noticed that he wasn't acting normal. Not playful, appeared to be in distress. I looked around, and discovered 3 piles of food that he had vomited, 2 piles were covered in a slime like mucus. I called the vet right away, and he told me to bring him in. I did, and after a brief hands on exam, the vet said he needed to do x-rays.
Well, the vet said that Sam was "full of gas" but that it wasn't bloat. I was told to give him 1 gas-x pill, no food for 18 hours, and watch to see if he vomited up any water. Also, at noon the next day, I could give him 1/3 of a can of Hills prescription i/d. If he was able to keep that down, wait an hour, then give him another 1/3.
If he vomited it up, rush him back in for further help. Well, he never vomited again, never brought up water. Ate very slowly, like he was scared too. I watched him like a hawk.
Thankfully, he is now fine - however, should I consider this as a slight bloat?
My regular vet was off when this happened, so Sam was seen by the new vet whom I have never used before.
Sorry to write a novel, but I want to learn as much as possible.


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

No. Your dog was able to vomit. A bloating animal has gas that they cannot relieve by vomitting or defecating. A bloating animal will try to vomit. In the case of my eldest, she produced a very viscid vomit. I could literally pick it up in my hands and it had enormous bubbles (4 - 5 inches in diameter.) I only thought she needed to go out to vomit until I placed my hands on her sides & felt her abdomen tight as a drum.


----------



## Sams Mom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Thank you for responding. Bloat scares the heck out of me. I have horses also, so I guess I can equate bloat to colic in them.


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Vikki - Yes it is very close to colic. I've always thought of it as the same.


----------



## jypsykoda

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I lost my Zeus to bloat, the vet said it was probably caused by him dog eating too fast, the food swelling, and then running around with a too-full stomach. So I was under the impression it was caused by the food swelling, and that the deep body leaves room for it to twist. But I also was told the only option to to help the bloat was surgery, they never tried or even mentioned using a tube. 
But if that is the case wouldn't feeding raw food eliminate the problem? 
Does anyone know of a dog on Barf that has had bloat?


----------



## jypsykoda

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Sorry to re-post but I was still processing when I wrote the last one if you cnt tell..I just re-read this entire thread again, I wish I had known all this, and it sounds like there are vets out there including ours that could stand to read all this too. There's so much I didn't know and feel my vet should have been able to tell me... But I am still curious, and I apologize If I am being ignorant, but has anybody out there had or heard of a case of bloat in a dog that is on a raw diet?


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Help needed with bloat*



> Originally Posted By: jypsykodaSorry to re-post but I was still processing when I wrote the last one if you cnt tell..I just re-read this entire thread again, I wish I had known all this, and it sounds like there are vets out there including ours that could stand to read all this too. There's so much I didn't know and feel my vet should have been able to tell me... But I am still curious, and I apologize If I am being ignorant, but has anybody out there had or heard of a case of bloat in a dog that is on a raw diet?


Yes, there are dogs who have bloated on a raw diet. The best thing to do is to keep gas-x on hand and give it immediately if you suspect problems and then rush into the vet.


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Yes. I know of four.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Bloat from the inside:









Caught early-signs were obvious-torsion, too (plus a liver tumor-removed). Given Gas-X and taken to vet immediately. Surgery performed on 15.5 yo GSD/Chow mix, full recovery. Stomach was tacked. 

*If in doubt, call and go. *

I can't imagine what that must have felt like. I don't know if there is anything comparable in humans in terms of condition, but just can't fathom the pain. Normal illustration: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/images/hills_dog_cleaned.GIF


----------



## trudy

*bloat*

Hi my 7 year old female bloated, I caught it and she is okay today 2 weeks out. I had read on here about bloat and recognised the symptoms and reacted very fast and the vet operated quickly. My question is has anyone else had a dog survive and how long before they are back to normal? She is pretty uptight and growls more when she sees a dog or person. This is not her usual temperment. She is on strict crate rest and leash walks only, although I do have her out of the crate whenever I crate my 4.5 month old,(pics in critique section) I adopted this older dog a year ago and normally she is calm and aloof but not growlly. Thanks though for this forum and the info which has helped me so much with this and the new pup.


----------



## alienegypt

*Re: bloat*

Wow! Scary situation with bloating. Good for you for researching the condition, and being such a good parent! 

I do not have any personal experience with bloat, so I might not be much help, but I did want to tell you good job, and I hope she is back to normal soon!


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: bloat*

Bloat kinda knocks them for a loop. In three months they're feeling pretty good, in six months better still.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: bloat*

Our boy has never fully recovered, and it's probably been 4 years now. The vet used stitches that would absorbed, but they still haven't -- I can see them as they slowly come out of his abdominal area. I suspect that there is a chronic inflammatory process from these stitches all these years.

With all that being said, my dog is the only one I've met that has survived, but with such continuing problems.

Glad you caught it!


----------



## arycrest

*Re: bloat*

I'm sorry your pup bloated but am happy you caught it in time. 

I've had three dogs survive bloat and torsion. The first two guys had uneventful recoveries, no problems after they got back on their feet. 

The third was different, his bloat was more like a symptom of other problems. Kelly had been having problems off and on with diarrhea prior to his bloating.  He bloated on an empty stomach and had a "normal" recovery period. But, he continued having diarrhea, sometimes it was hemorrhagic diarrhea that sent him to the ER. A few months later he was finally diagnosed with SIBO which was eventually brought under control. Someone who works closely tracking GSD health problems said she suspects the SIBO caused the bloating. Kel, who had been very healthy up until this time, had one serious health issue after another, most were controlled but not eliminated. He had a liver problem that could never be tracked down as to what was causing it. He had gallbladder problems, several other issues including very severe arthritis in his elbows. IMHO they somehow were all realted except for the arthritis.


----------



## arycrest

*Re: bloat*

I tried to edit the above post but time expired. I wanted to add:

I kept all three under house arrest (leash walks to potty only, quiet in the house) until they got their stitches out. Then I pretty much let them do what they wanted to after that. 

Each of the three had different vets and different feeding protocals. Echo, who also lost his spleen, was on pain meds, antibiotics, lots of digestion meds and had to follow a very strict soft diet for a long time after his bloat surgery. JR had pain meds and antibiotics and had to eat a special I/D canned diet for a week or so. Kelly, who lost 1/3 of his stomach, also had pain meds and antibiotics. The vet said to continue feeding him his normal diet (kibble and canned food), but to feed him smaller meals more often and then to gradually get him back to eating two normal sized meals a day.

I've never had it happen with bloat, but have seen some of the Hooligans get "pissy" when they weren't feeling well. Hopefully your girl will get back to normal when she's back on her feet.


----------



## GSDextrodinaire

*Re: bloat*

I had a dog who swallowed a raw chicken leg whole, which became an obstruction on it's way to the stomach, which caused bloat and torsion. I caught it within minutes and he was rushed to a vet. He came through everything fine. Within a week he was acting normal. I kept him in crate or confined to the room I was in for probably 6 weeks. I was overly cautious.

What you might be experiencing is not directly a result of the bloat, but the anesthsia. Some animals never handle that well, and there are times subtle or drastic personality changes occur after the fact. We had that happen with a cat when she was spayed. Basically a nice cat prior to spaying. Upon recovery this cat became a minion of satan. She was never the same after the spay.

Also, it could be she is still not feeling up to par, and because of that feeling vulnerable so she is warning. Give her some time, monitor her.


----------



## Chicagocanine

*Re: Help needed with bloat: a must read for GSD owners*

My Golden Retriever bloated last year when she was 11 years old. She was very lucky, my vet said if I hadn't gotten her in so quickly she would not have made it... As soon as I noticed her symptoms I knew, I rushed her in to the emergency vet and told them "I think she bloated."

Her stomach, the start of her intestines and the start of her spleen were twisted and she had to have emergency surgery at the ER vet. The ER vet was not optimistic about her chances due to her age but she didn't know my dog...despite her age she is in very good shape, went on long walks daily... Thankfully she pulled through and had no ill effects from the GDV or surgery. In fact she recovered very quickly. She is 12 now and has some health problems but is still going strong.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Another opinion: bloat and potassium

http://www.weimaraner-scotland.com/GenInt/Bloat.htm


----------



## M&J

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

http://www.brake-fast.net


They now make them in metal for those of us who don't want plastic bowls.


----------



## Barb E

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

The metal is covered in PTFE (Like Teflon) - Just an FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene


----------



## M&J

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Thank you for posting that. I am going to read through the entire thread to see other recommendations. I have heard chains or rocks?? Anything better you would recommend to put in my dog's food bowl? I don't want to put rocks in the dog bowl.


----------



## Barb E

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I don't think the Teflon thing is necessarily a bad thing, it seems most of the issues come with heating and no one will be heating the dog bowl







Did want to throw it out there though.

I think one large rock can work very well, kind of a home made Bundt pan









Another thing I have heard is to feed on a cookie sheet.


----------



## M&J

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Barb, you just saved me $40. Thanks! I turned a small stainless steel dish over in Rudy's bowl and it has significantly slowed down his eating.
Now my paranoia is kicking in and I am thinking he is gulping in more air going after the food......


----------



## GSDLoverII

*Stainless Slow Feed Bowl*

Stainless steel and no teflon. Sounds like a winner!









I just ordered 3 of these in medium.

http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=14354


----------



## GSDLoverII

*Re: Stainless Slow Feed Bowl*

Durapet Slow Feed Dog Food Bowl - Medium (9.5" in diameter)- Stainless Steel. 
Durapet Premium Bowls are made of high quality, heavy-duty stainless steel with a permanently molded rubber ring on the base that prevents the bowl from sliding across the floor and creating undesirable noise. The Slow Feed Bowl design features a dome in the center to make dogs eat around the obstruction, slowing their feeding. Eating more slowly improves your dog's digestion and nutrient absorption.

Dogs that are rapid eaters can tax their digestive systems, resulting in belching, vomiting, gassiness, and other signs of poor digestion. The Slow Feed bowl design will deter your dog from "wolfing down" meals and can improve your dog's ability to digest and assimilate nutrients from their food. These bowls can also help slow down too-rapid water drinking, which can help prevent vomiting in dogs that "over-drink" when excited or overheated, and after exercise. 

Durapet stainless steel bowls are economical and long lasting, and they offer many advantages over plastic food dishes:
-More durable - can't be chewed up by your dog or puppy 
-More hygienic - smooth surface is easy to clean and dishwasher safe - won't harbor bacteria like plastic can 
-Safer for your dog - won't leach toxic plasticizers and colorants as some plastic dishes can 
-Retains like-new finish (they're corrosion and rust resistant) and won't pit, flake or crack like plastic can 
-More stability - rubber ring around base of bowl helps stabilize to prevent tipping, spilling and sliding on most surfaces


----------



## roxy84

*didnt see much in depth discussion of this procedu*

i read through the whole bloat thread, but didnt see much in depth discussion of laparoscopic gastropexy. i read the following article initially because scott cox grew up in my small town:

http://www.michianafamilymagazine.com/Nov08Issue/KeepingYourDogSafeCox.html

i found the last comment interesting regarding happier dogs being less likely to bloat.

here is a more specific link to the procedure:

http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/proph_gastropexy.htm

i understand it will not prevent bloat, but would prevent the stomach from twisting, which is the life threatening condition. unless there are some risks or side effects, i will seriously consider this. i will discuss this with my vet soon.

has anyone done the laparoscopic gastropexy, and if so, have anything negative to report about it?


----------



## Spiritsmam

*Re: didnt see much in depth discussion of this procedu*

When Eli is neutered and Aoibhe spayed I'm having both of them prophylactically gastropexied. Yes, it will add to the cost of the spay/neuter, however GDV surgery costs thousands and your pup can still die (as happened to my darling Shep).


----------



## roxy84

*Re: didnt see much in depth discussion of this procedu*

ive already had my girl spayed. i wish i had known about this then. nevertheless, i may do this anyway.


----------



## 3dogcrew

*Re: didnt see much in depth discussion of this procedu*

At the time I had Davit spayed, I also had the gastropexy done. I had it done as a precaution since her dad had twisted.He was very lucky and survived. I talked at great length to our vet about it before I made the decision.One has to keep in mind that it won't prevent bloat but hopefully will stop a twist.I don't remember what the cost was, it was done when she was being spayed.I do remember that I didn't pass out when I paid the bill, and was surprised at how little was added to the bill for doing it.
Davit did not have any problems having it done.


----------



## 3K9Mom

*Re: didnt see much in depth discussion of this procedu*

I don't like creating openings (even laproscopic incisions) if I don't need to. Laproscopic surgery is not without its risks, so I would not, and did not have this surgery done on my male when he was neutered.

HOWEVER, when I have a female GSD (or other breed dog inclined toward bloat) and when I have her spayed, I absolutely would request gastroplexy. I've spoken with my vet about this. The surgeon will be in there anyhow. It takes very little extra time. 

BUT, my vet says that few regular family vets really know how to do this procedure. And performed incorrectly, it could be useless, or could even be dangerous. She said that she wouldn't attempt it (nor would any of the other vets at my vet hospital) and would refer us to my favorite K9 surgeon. So, there would be extra expense involved. 

Is it worth it? Absolutely. And I will have it done with my next female GSD. And if I have a male GSD that needs surgery in the stomach cavity, I'd "add this on." But I'm pretty cautious about scoping where a tiny nick on intestines or liver can kill a dog.


----------



## SharkB8

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Kiefer,

I jsut started a thread on gastric torsion before I saw yours...

One thing I mentioned in my thread is that after doing the surgery, Maxx still had problems. Thousands of dollars and months of an uncomfortable pooch in a lot of pain and stress, they offered to do a $20 blood test to check to see if he had a certain bacteria that cause excess gas buildup. He tested positive for this strain and was put on a $14 bottle of antibiotics. 

Cleared it right up and stopped the symptoms for about two years. Now I'm seeing it again...but have curbed it with even smaller meals, more times a day. Getting rid of the elevated food and water dishes. Avoiding stress/exercise before and after meals. Keeping Gas X on hand. Feeling his stomach throughout the day for rigidity.

I'm also waiting on a referral to an internist to try to get to the bottom of it.

As I told another poster, I will try and go through my notes and vet reports to see if I can find at least the name of the antibiotic if not the bacteria.

Best of luck to you guys and everyone else on here experiencing bloat issues.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I would love to know the name of the bacteria if you can find it.


----------



## M&J

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I caved. I now have the Brake-fast bowl in metal. The company is now covering the bowl with powder coat enamel b/c of the teflon issue. I have one of these new ones.
I timed Rudy this morning. It took him 8 minutes to eat 1.5 cups of food.
I love this bowl.


----------



## RubyTuesday

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

M&J, where did you get one of the enamel coated metal bowls? I dislike teflon, largely b/c it scratches so easily exposing the aluminum underneath.


----------



## M&J

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I got mine from amazon.com. Brake-fast.net is selling them, as well. However, if you wait a little while, you will get them powder coated from the factory. I believe the rep told me two months. As of last week they had 45 of the bowls they re-enameled. When those are gone they will produce the medium bowl with the finish from the factory. They are already making the small metal bowls that way.
Customer service was great. I thought I had the teflon coated bowl and they were willing to exchange it for the newly coated one even though I didn't buy it from them. Turns out amazon.com sent me the recoated bowl so it worked out.


----------



## sunnygirl272

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Finally found the email I sent out to friends after Serena bloated:



Melinda & Jay wrote: 
None of this is meant as a substitute for advice from your vet. It is a collection of all that I have learned since Serena bloated.
PLEASE feel free to forward, or to contact me if you feel I have written something that is incorrect/
~Melinda

Here is the Serena story:
In hindsight, she wasn't really acting herself the night before, at bedtime, but we chalked it up to sulking about Keagen. Everyone's nose is a little out of joint over him right now.

Feb 9th, Jay fed everyone about 6:15. He left at 7, and I got up shortly thereafter for a bit, then went back to bed until 10ish. (Boy, I needed that!). Remy was uncrated in the house. After I got up for good, I was checking emails, and heard her gagging and licking. I thought she had yacked a little water and was "recycling" it as dogs sometimes do. I heard her continue to lick, and looked-she was licking the floor of her crate rather obsessively. Still not thinking about bloat, I let her and Halle out of their crates. I noticed she was chubby, and made a mental note to remind Jay that the new food is much more calorie-dense, and to not feed her as much. She was now licking the carpet and gagging a little. I let the girls and Remy out to potty. She immediately began licking snow. Ok, NOW I am thinking about bloat. Ran in, googled to confirm, called the vet and told them I was on my way in. I paged Jay with a 911page, so I could fill him in. By this time, her abdomen was quite distended, and painful to touch-for her and I! 

Crated Remy and Halle and left. Oh, and on the way out, literally, she did vomit. Partially inside, partially outside, and part on the door frame. I used wad of papertowels to clear off the door frame, and left it to deal with when I got back. 
They immediately took her back for Xrays, she did have gastric dilatation, but had not yet torsed. He offered options: 

Send her home on Reglan, and schedule surgery for next wk. 
Either keep her until 3, or have me bring her back at 3 for repeat Xrays, then send her home on Reglan, and schedule surgery for next wk. 
Or, as he looked back and forth between the film and the clock, he said, "we can do it now, and be done with it." 
I voted for #3, which he did also say was what he would do if she were his. The gastropexy won't prevent the dilatation part of bloat, but will prevent, or at least decrease the chance of, the volvulus. 

The evening of the surgery, she was very loagy and very out of sorts, understandably so!
Her incision is quite long, as to be expected. He had to give her more of the anesthetic than would be normal for a dog of her size, she really fought the anesthesia. That's our tankgirl! She actually was soooo loagy that we ended up having to walk her and syringe her with water every 1/2 hr to help her to clear the anesthesia. By the next day, she was sore, but more like herself. She's been back for 2 rechecks, each time she astounds the vet and the staff. She goes in midweek to get her sutures out.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

Bloat, Torsion, or Gastric Dilatation/Volvulus (GDV)





Made up of 2 steps

Step 1 is the Gastric Dilatation. At this time, the stomach itself is distended (or stretched). May be distended with food, water, air, or combination of all. At this point, decompression can be done, and surgery may/may not be decided upon. 
Next step is the volvulus. Because of the location and position of the stomach in a dog, when it expands to a certain extreme point, it will twist. This twisting will eliminate the ability for the situation to remedy itself. It also will result in a cutoff of bloodflow to the stomach itself, and to the heart. The dog who has developed a volvulus will rapidly deteriorate and WILL die without immediate medical attention. 


Symptoms

Pacing, fidgeting. 
Acting agitated or uncomfortable 
Salivating, panting, whining 
Licking weird things, almost obsessively. May even lick the air. (You will know it when you see it!) 
Unsuccessful attempts to vomit, retching 
Excessive drooling, usually accompanied by retching noises. May vomit foam/mucous. 
Difficulty breathing, shallow breathing, panting 
Rapid heartrate 
Pale gums, or very red gums 
Swelling in abdominal area (may or may not be noticeable) 
Hunching up 
May try to gulp water, snow, dirt, rocks, grass. 
IF YOU SEE ANY OF THESE, CALL YOUR VET AS YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY OUT THE DOOR!!!! The first words out of your mouth on the phone should be “I think my dog is bloating.” Do not let them put you off. 



Risk factors

Deep-chested breeds (GSDs, Danes, Saints, Labs, Irish Wolfhounds, Great Pyrenees, Boxers, Weims) 
Raised dishes result in an 110% INCREASE in risk of bloat! (Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine, Non-dietary risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in large and giant breed dogs ) 
Feeding some canned food or table scraps seems to lessen the incidence. 
Previous history, or family history. 
Fast eaters. (If you have a gulper, try scattering the kibble on the floor.) 
Tense/fearful/anxious dogs 
Underweight dogs 
Males more likely than females 
Food containing citric acid, or food with fat in top 4ingredients. 
Large volumes of kibble. (i.e., less calorie dense foods) 


Treatment

The immediate treatment is decompression of the stomach. The vet will do this, or if you feel confidant in your abilities, you can find the instructions/supply list online. 
Gastropexy can be done. There are several methods to do this, each with pros/cons. Only your vet can decide which is the optimal choice. Gastropexy does not prevent the bloat from occurring, but will prevent the dilatation. 
Without surgery there is a 24% mortality rate and a 76% chance of re-bloating at some point. The best choice is to finish the treatment that has been started and have the abdomen explored. If the stomach can be surgically tacked into place, recurrence rate drops to 6%. {Marvista Vet } 
Prevention

NO exercise around mealtimes. (1hr before, 2hrs after) Light walking is okay, and may increase gastric motility. (That’s a good thing.) 
Limit water intake right around meals, and also around exercise. Don’t limit their water intake except around mealtimes/exercise. 
Feed several smaller meals rather than 1 larger one. 
It is possible that administering simethicone (Phayzyme, Gas-X) at first sign of abdominal discomfort MIGHT buy you some time. It does NOT eliminate the need to seek emergency medical attention! 
Possible prevention: 
1-2 Tbs of Aloe Vera Gel or 1 Tbs of apple cider vinegar given right after each meal to promote proper acidity 
Yogurt or supplemental acidophilus to promote healthy bacteria in the gut.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

A while back I did a little experiment on myself.(haha hope this doesn't sound crazy). I ran around very actively after I had a meal and a beverage. My stomach started to feel upset pretty quickly and i could hear gurgling noises. I wonder if that's how it feels for dogs when they are active right after they eat and why it can trigger bloating.

We include information on bloat when we adopt GSDs out, and i always make sure to kennel my boy an hour before and an hour after I feed him.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Thank you for experimenting for us - very clever!


----------



## gslore

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Great experiment. It provided useful information, but I still had to chuckle a bit.









I was worried about bloat as well when I got Schatzi. Being a paranoid mom, whenever she showed just one of the signs (not the serious ones), I would panic and call the vet. While I still keep a close eye on her, I did a lot of research on bloat so that I could recognize the true emergency signs:

http://www.german-shepherd-lore.com/bloat.html

My parents grew up in Germany during WWII and they always had Shepherds. None of them seemed to be affected by the various ailments that plague dogs today. Their dogs always ate table scraps and were the most robust dogs you could ever find.

While I don't feed her table scraps, she does eat a quality food (dry with a bit of canned) and I add digestive enzymes and probiotics. My understanding is that maintaining the proper pH balance in the gut is extremely important. 

I also try to keep her stress level low. You should see the conversations I have with my 9 month old pup. She just doesn't understand why she can't run around like a crazy dog after meal time.


----------



## Goldglv

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I see all these things about how you shouldn't feed your dog their food in an elevated bowl. 

What's considered elevated? A few inches off the floor or is that ok? Or should we literally be feeding our dogs their food on a plate on the floor?


----------



## Fodder

*Bloat*

i'm seeking input mainly from those who have experienced bloat first hand...

there are many theories as to what causes bloat, and even more theories of how to decrease the chances of bloat, so what i'm wondering is -- what did you try? what supposed "rules did you break"? and what are you doing differently now?

also, just how common is bloat in german shepherds?


----------



## RacerX

*Re: Bloat*

A friend of mine's Great Dane had it and referenced this page.

According to the chart, GSD's are 12th on the risk list.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2090&aid=402


----------



## Laura H.

*Re: Bloat*

My GSD Rocky bloated last April 11th. He was restless all evening, but he had had two good play sessions that day, so we thought his hips were bothering him (he had HD, arthritis & neuropathy, where he dragged his back legs)

He kept wanting to go outside but it was around 3:30AM I heard a horrible sound, him moaning, ran downstairs, he had been vomiting a thick white foam. Took him to EV, he might have survived bloat surgery, but odds were high he'd never walk again. He was ten.

A neighbor's basset hound died after bloat surgery years ago, so I was aware of it. I had always been so careful, no playing after just eating, etc.

Even in the evenings, Rocky seemed to like a nice long drink after his final trip outside. Every night I'd say okay Rock, enough, as I did that night.

I've gone over that night so many times, what could I have done differently? Even getting him to the EV wouldn't have changed the outcome, but I feel horrible because I know at least the last hour he suffered until I begged them to give him something for pain until we knew what we were dealing with.

From what I read after on the internet, age, sex and of course breed is a large factor, so he had those three things going against him. I really don't think I "broke any of the rules". 

Oh, I don't know, I guess I'll be extra vigilant with my two new GSDs

I'll never forget his moaning though, unfortunately that's not a good sign, because up until then he just had an upset tummy, when the moaning started his stomach must have torqued.









(I always feel I have to apologize for my long posts, I've always been a fast typist & before I know it, I've written a book)


----------



## Fodder

*Re: Bloat*

no worries lara - as long as there are enough breaks the in thoughts / paragraphs - i never mind a long informative post









i was reading a debate over raised or level feeders - some saying they decrease, some saying they increase, and of course some saying they have no effect whatsoever when it comes to bloat. there are even references to the size and shape of kibble making a difference. on one hand i feel like - if it says it will help, then why not try it? but on the other hand i feel like so many people "follow the rules" and still end up having to go thru this horror that i think - why bother? everything seems like its nothing more than taking a _chance._


----------



## arycrest

*Re: Bloat*



> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderi'm seeking input mainly from those who have experienced bloat first hand...
> 
> there are many theories as to what causes bloat, and even more theories of how to decrease the chances of bloat, so what i'm wondering is -- what did you try? what supposed "rules did you break"? and what are you doing differently now?
> 
> also, just how common is bloat in german shepherds?


I've had three dogs bloat w/torsion. All three had successful emergency surgery.

I really can't answer your questions, but I can tell you about each dog and my experiences. 

Around SEPT - 1993. ECHO was about 9 years/6 months old when he bloated w/torsion BUT during the year he had bloated (no torsion) once or twice before this. He was always a good eater. He ate Pedigree kibble and had some type of canned food, forget the brand (maybe Pedigree?), with water added. He bloated IMMEDIATELY after he finished his meal. He lost his spleen. When he was younger he was ultra shy, he had a TERRIBLE TEMPERAMENT - I spent hundreds of hours in obedience to help give him confidence. When he bloated he hadn't had any noticible temperament problems in many years.

Around DEC. 1999. JR was about 9 years/10 months old when he bloated w/torsion. He was a very picky eater - ate enough to survive - he was SKINNY, SKINNY, SKINNY!!! He was NOT diagnosed with EPI, but the vet had me use Panacure to help him digest and utilize as much of the food he consumed as possible. He had bloated (no torsion) about a month or two prior to the bloat w/torsion. He ate Innova kibble with boiled hamburger and some of the juice mixed in. Later that night, after he ate he acted like he had an upset tummy, but this didn't really alarm me until about 3 hours later when he vomited white foam. He had a rock solid temperament. FWIW, JR survived mesenteric torsion about 14 months before he had the bloat w/torsion.

Around SEPT. 2005. KELLY was about 9 years/9 or 10 months old when he bloated w/torsion ON A COMPLETELY EMPTY STOMACH. He was always a good eater. He was having problems before this happened with diarrhea which was later diagnosed as SIBO. The day he bloated he vomited water in the AM, and had a very rumbly tummy all day. When he vomited white foam I rushed him to the vet who confirmed bloat w/torsion. Even though he had been laying next to me for hours, the vet felt he had been torsioned for sometime before he vomited - he lost 1/3 of his stomach but had a normal recouperation. Kel had a soft temperament, not shy, but absolutely not normal either.

Some people feel old age contributed to their torsion. One lady who has studied GSD health issues felt that Kel's SIBO caused his bloat. All three had both water and food bowls on the floor.


----------



## Laura H.

*Re: Bloat*



> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderno worries lara - as long as there are enough breaks the in thoughts / paragraphs - i never mind a long informative post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i was reading a debate over raised or level feeders - some saying they decrease, some saying they increase, and of course some saying they have no effect whatsoever when it comes to bloat. there are even references to the size and shape of kibble making a difference. on one hand i feel like - if it says it will help, then why not try it? but on the other hand i feel like so many people "follow the rules" and still end up having to go thru this horror that i think - why bother? everything seems like its nothing more than taking a _chance._


I think maybe the risks with the raised eating platforms or size of kibble is eating too fast or air getting in there could be the start of the bloating.

Rocky did not eat fast, even when he was a puppy.

I always think of what my Grandma used to say & to me this applies to my precious animals as well as humans
"when it's your time it's your time"


----------



## Laura H.

*Re: Bloat*

Another thing, and I didn't think about this until later the next day, after my mind was able to accept that all this DID happen.

Since Rocky's hips were getting worse & worse with age (I always had figured the end with him was finding him unable to use his hind legs), he didn't just jump up onto the back seat, I would move the passenger seat up as far as it would go & he step up onto the floor, then onto the back seat. (we have had Escapes for years, they work very well with the dogs).

That night I was in a panic of course. It wasn't until afterward I realized he had a harder than normal time getting in, I remember having to help him more than usual.

The first thing they did at the vet was measure him with calipers, as they immediately thought bloat from my phone call telling them we were coming in.

So the stomach swelling is another sign. But since it was night, neither myself or DH would have thought of looking, we just got up & let him out, as usual.

So many "what ifs"


----------



## Chicagocanine

*Re: Bloat*

My Golden bloated when she was 11 years old, this was a year ago in January. She had not eaten yet that day or had large quantities of water, and had not exercised that day. I don't think I broke any "rules" because most of the things like no exercise before/after eating, don't feed large meals, etc did not apply since she hadn't eaten anything all day.
Actually I take that back, I guess I did break one "rule" because my Golden usually ate lying down. However as I said she had not eaten yet that day so that was not a factor. 
She first threw up when I was not around to see it, a family member told me she was vomiting so I came to see what was wrong. I heard her gagging so I took her into the kitchen. When I stepped back I noticed her stomach was distended, so I rushed her in to the emergency vet and told them "I think she bloated" so they rushed her to the back. She was acting distressed and drooling. They took an x-ray and found that she had torsion as well and needed emergency surgery. When they did the surgery they found the stomach, start of intestine, and start of spleen were twisted but the color was good and the blood flow returned normally when they untwisted it which means we caught it early. She went through the surgery and recovery very well. She was very lucky because I had been out of town for the weekend and just returned that day. If I had not been there I don't know if my family would have recognized how much of an emergency it was.

I think the most important thing to do is to know the signs/symptoms of bloat and that it is an urgent emergency situation.


----------



## Fodder

*Re: Bloat*

twonhshepherds - were you practicing any of the so called _preventative_ measures prior to your bloat incident? 

scary that both parents died from bloat. thanks for that link.


----------



## twonhshepherds

*Re: Bloat*

Yes, I was...His Mom died when Max was 2 so I was always vigilant.

I did no exercise 1 hour before or after meals. Careful with the kind of kibble I fed.There is an article somewhere about the ingredients that shouldn't be in kibble...I'm not sure if I could find it. I think it was part of the Purdue study.
Two meals a day and tried to slow him down eating...that was difficult!! No raised food bowl..

I have a friend who's dog bloated on water, just water..go figure.


I always figured it was a matter of time.

Max will be 11 in April...we have nothing to complain about.


----------



## shilohsmom

*Re: Bloat*

I regret to now fall into this catagory, but as many know, Shoshona bloated last Tue night/Wed morning. I had always taken every precaution I knew of. They were NEVER allowed to eat at least 1 hr before/after excercise. We have an excercise program that we stick to daily which includes warm ups, intense excercise and cool downs. 
There is never an issue with eating fast around here. I free feed, the only time food is not avail is before/after excercise. 
As far as I'm concerned there were no enviormental reasons Shoshi would have bloated. 
I have began investigating a surgery, Laproscopic Gastroxpey (I think thats how its spelled, its not in front of me) but thats where they laproscopically go in and tack the stomachs. I want to get this done for both of my boys. It won't prevent Bloat but it will prevent the stomach from flipping as was the case with Shoshi.


----------



## Laura H.

*Re: Bloat*

Since going through it myself and like I said, after seeing my neighbor's dog die after going through the surgery, I read up on it as much as I could & was fanatical (pretty much the same way you described) with my dogs, as far as exercise, drinking too much water, eating too fast, everything that was within my power to control.

When the boys go in for their yearly shots I will discuss the procedure with the vet & see what she suggests.

But so far it just sounds like extremely bad luck, I don't know what else I could have done differently with Rocky. I think when you have a large chested dog (animals) you're always running the risk.

And of course the bloating itself is just very uncomfortable, it's when it torques, that's where it becomes deadly, which is what the tacking would prevent. Definitely something to look in to.


----------



## 3K9Mom

*Re: Bloat*

My internist concurs with the New Purdue study -- that is, raised feeders, etc. I won't repeat them, since we probably all have them memorized.

That said, she says that is all we really know about bloat. It's still not understood, even by specialists like her. She indicates it's possible that some dogs may have torsion, then bloat even (not all GDV is bloat then torsion). As you know, Camerafodder, that's what I'm dealing with Camper with right now. He has partial torsion of his stomach. He hasn't eaten a grain-based kibble since he was a little guy and has been on a raw diet for just about two years now. 

I've never fed him with a raised feeder. He savors his food, doesn't gobble, but actually eats slowly. We have set exercise and feeding times to ensure one hour after exercise, then two hours after feeding. 

The four vets I've consulted say they think it's genetic. But I've spoken to the breeder and there's no history of bloat/torsion in any of her dogs (and I have no reason to doubt her); nor has she heard of it in any of the pups she's sold over the years. She seemed genuinely shocked. Maybe it's a combination of genes, then just the oddest little thing happening in utero. After all, why was my dog redder as a pup than his siblings? And why does he have far more energy and drive than his sister? As my internist puts it, it's all his unique conformation. We don't know exactly what goes into making Camper his unique wonderful partially torsioned self. 

And, we realized, there could be quite a number of dogs walking around with this exact same condition. It was just an odd set of circumstances that led to me finding out (my paranoia, mostly). So maybe dogs that bloat in old age actually have had partial torsion for years. 

When I say partial torsion, I don't mean that as a static condition. In one set of xrays, the stomach was out of position and slightly twisted. When we took an ultrasound (just a week later), it was not twisted, but still out of position. The stomach is bouncing around all over the place in there. I got lucky. 

I think the one rule we need to always follow is to pay very careful attention to our dogs; don't dismiss simple GI symptoms as "just one of those things." Check out anything that seems odd. 

I've always been pretty cautious. I felt silly bringing him in for xrays because he urps sometime. Thank God I did. 

When we look for "rules," I think it gives us a false sense of security, that we understand bloat better than we do. But for every rule, there's exceptions. There are people here whose dogs have bloated on raw diets, or on empty stomachs. Young dogs bloat. Females. And solid-nerved dogs. 

The info (like the Purdue studies) we have is correlational information and historic data. Helpful, but only so useful. 

This week, I've found out, we just really don't know that much about bloat. 

We're doing gastropexy tomorrow after they untwist and rearrange his organs. When I have a female GSD and have her spayed, I'd absolutely have it done. But would I open up a young healthy male for a prophylactic gastropexy? Or even for a laproscopic procedure? Not so sure I would. There are risks to surgery too.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Bloat*

Chama (she's not a gsd but she is a rottie mix with a very deep chest) bloated in a very typical way and there was no torsion. She ate a bunch of kibble and drank a bunch of water. Totally my fault but also something she'd not done in the past (stuck her head in the bag and ate like it was a feeding trough!). I don't normally leave a bag on the floor but I had just opened it that night and was in the middle of a project. Looking back I realize that she has bloated before (not to the degree she did this last time) and I treated it with activated charcoal and all was well. 

This time I panicked because she started doing that unproductive gagging thing. I didn't know if it was from the bloat or from her lungs (she coughs because she has scaring on her lungs) but I decided I needed and x-ray and rushed her into the e-vet. At that point I wasn't sure she had eaten any kibble (I caught her next to the bag but not eating from the bag) so I couldn't explain the mass that showed up on her x-ray. The amount of poop she produced in the next 8 hours convinced me it was kibble but the vet was convinced it was a tumor. 

And, indeed, many older dogs do bloat because of a tumor. 

To make the long story shorter, I took Chama home against the vet's wishes. She thought I should pts, told me there was nothing I could do for her at home. She said there was no way she would recover and even if I decompressed and/or had surgery done she would bloat again, maybe within the week. 

When I took her to a regular vet first thing the next morning (because she had a terrible reaction to the narcotic the e-vet insisted on giving her) she told me to take her home and watch her carefully. When I finally got a hold of my regular vet he told me to alternate Gas X and activated charcoal and a couple of homeopathic remedies and _keep her moving_. I started treating aggressively and by that evening the bloat was resolving. 

So, that's Chama's story. If she were a younger dog I certainly would have pursued surgical options but given her age, general health and the fact that the vet told me she had cancer and should be pts, I did not pursue those options. I am glad that I made the decisions that I did. 

My bloat kit now has homeopathic remedies in it and at the first sign you can bet I'll be pumping my dog full of all this stuff as we run out the door to the vet!


----------



## bergwanderkennels

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I have been feeding my dog in an elevated bowl for ever and this is something I am not going to change as it is easier and less stress on joints. 

Maybe I missed it with in all the posts someplace but the new thinking is that bloat is and can be GENETIC! 

Of course I still follow the making the dog wait AT LEAST 2 hours after eating to exercise and what not but also another thing I have done with all my dogs is feeding later in the evening about 8:30 to 9 PM.. this way I know we are finished for the day and the dogs are in down mode and not even likely to run around the garden chasing each other in play.


----------



## GSDBESTK9

*Re: Help needed with bloat*



> Originally Posted By: Berg WandererI have been feeding my dog in an elevated bowl for ever and this is something I am not going to change as it is easier and less stress on joints.


After my Sam bloated (eating from an elevated bowl) I threw those away!!! Now that I see him eating from a bowl on the floor I can see a HUGE difference. They used to inhale so much air when eating from a raised bowl. NEVER AGAIN!!! Just think of it, wolfs in the wild don't eat from raised bowls.

They now eat from Break-Fast bowls and it has slowed them down big time! I wish I would have known about this sooner, I'm a 100% sure Sam would have never bloated if he had been eating on the floor using this type of bowl. No doubt in my mind.


----------



## shilohsmom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Carolina i've done the same with my elevated bowls. When I first bought them I thought it was to avoid Bloat but somewhere along the line the rules changed and I wasn't aware of it.


----------



## bergwanderkennels

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Yeah but wolfs do not have shoulder and hip problems either! 

I watched Mr. and Mrs wolf on Sky sat a few weeks ago he hunted a deer and brought the carcass in for the wolves to eat from and the rib cage was at least 8 inches off the ground while they were eating from it.

I still feel that yes you should do all you can as far as not allowing copious amounts of water after/ during exercise, make sure during exercise the dogs get a sip then count at least until 10 seconds before allowing another and not allowing too much water during exercise, and watching feeding in ratio to exercise, also if you are more concerned then you can also feed 3 times a day or smaller meals so not as much is sitting in the stomach at one time.


----------



## GSDBESTK9

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

When my Sam bloated, he had NOT had any exercise nor had had a ton of water.


----------



## bergwanderkennels

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

That is why I really give more to the fact that bloat is more of a genetic issue in large breed dogs just as hips would be and eyes ect...... 
And if your dog is going to get bloat then there is nothing you can do about it anyway except staple the stomach into place which is something they are doing at one army base here in Germany as a prevention.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Bloat*

I think we are all looking in the wrong places. If you name a rule, there are a number of dogs that will show that rule doesn't always hold.

As for Max, the trigger was working fast recalls and drinking water. I know that was the trigger. I also know that he was showing signs the week before it happened. It was going to happen, I was just lucky that I was there when it did.

Whatever causes bloat, they haven't found the right studies to look at. Some have speculated IBD has a relation, others the thyroid, some think back issues, what if it's related to GM foods, potassium levels? I think that the Purdue studies, the best we have to date, were superficial in a sense. Or at least I think we look to them as if they are definitive, which they are not.

http://www.vetinfo.com/dbloat.html

An interesting thought or two: 
http://tinyurl.com/cdskmv
http://tinyurl.com/dfpznx

Purdue abstracts:
http://tinyurl.com/c9ohp7
http://tinyurl.com/dn3zpc
http://tinyurl.com/co7pvr

Dogs having their spleen removed perhaps should have their stomach tacked:
http://tinyurl.com/cndta7
http://tinyurl.com/dcuzky


----------



## Fodder

*Re: Bloat*



> Originally Posted By: LisaTIf you name a rule, there are a number of dogs that will show that rule doesn't always hold.


ya no kidding. this thread alone has proven that!

thanks for the links. i've become increasingly nervous after all the recent cases here on the board. i now savor each and every one of Gia's farts (gross i know, but at least the occasional gas is releasing itself)


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Bloat*

Also don't forget there is more than one kind of bloat. 

There is "just bloat" and then there is bloat with torsion. And then that can cause the other organs to torse too, I believe. Like Ginger. And you really need to know what it is that you are dealing with by getting to the vet ASAP. 

http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/bloat.html has some pictures! 

"there are many theories as to what causes bloat, and even more theories of how to decrease the chances of bloat, so what i'm wondering is -- what did you try? what supposed "rules did you break"? and what are you doing differently now?

also, just how common is bloat in german shepherds? "

Kramer bloated at 15. Also had stomach torsion. And a tumor on his liver which was removed at the same time. So that could be why he bloated, and the GDV actually gave him an extra year that he wouldn't have had because the tumor was large enough to bleed out. Luckily it was operable, that time.









I follow the rules of no activity an 1.5 before or 1.5 hours after eating. I need to watch the play and water thing better because they have access to water while playing and Mario gulps. 

Kramer wasn't active, wasn't stressed, may have eaten his food a little faster because there was some new fishy kibble mixed in that I gave him that night. So I think it was old dog/tumor GDV. I just gave him Gas-x and got him to the vet immediately-probably within 15-30 minutes of it starting-the pacing started first, which was a habit of his anyway, so it took me a bit to realize that it was more than normal pacing. 

They tried the tubing down the throat but that didn't work. I went through with the surgery quickly and his stomach had already rotated about halfway around. He recovered like he was a 6 month old spay!

Kramer was short and stocky, a Shepherd-Chow mix. 

They all eat at least 2x a day, with water in their food, just because they like it better. 

I watch them all carefully and am strict about quiet time. But I think I am starting to realize I may not really have control...yes, I said it...over bloat if it is going to happen.


----------



## Laura H.

*Re: Bloat*

That's right, stress is another contributing factor. Rocky was a high strung dog (scared of thunderstorms, firecrackers, etc.)

So he actually had four things going against him, breed, age, sex and stress.

I don't know how to tell a dog that stressed out to relax. I used to feel so bad for him during thunderstorms when he used to try to crawl under the small space under my desk when I was on the computer.

I wish I could say I would have done something different with him, but I honestly can't think of anything.


----------



## Koicare

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I had a male who torsioned .... it is horrifying! Luckily, I managed to get him to the vet in time...and he ended up loosing his spleen, and having his stomach tacked - but he survived the ordeal! And what an ordeal - I hope that none of you ever have to experience this!

After the torsion he became allergic to proteins...... and I had to find a novel protein for him to eat..... so my choice at that stage was rabbit and ostrich - I do not have easy and regular supply to other game meats. I could not do the rabbit thing - well if it was the only choice I now I would have made a plan - but I went with raw Ostrich! I fed him a home made diet and he lived a happy 6 more years without any problems.....

Yes, if you look up bloat you will get very conflicting advise - so I am going to give you some more to think about - this is also from a research paper and it has to do with the % of fats in a dogs diet... I did not see anyone mentioning fat... could have missed it!

PubMed - J Am Anim Hosp Assoc. 2006 Jan-Feb; 42(1): 28-36 "The effect of ingredients in dry dog foods on the risk of gastric dilatation volvulus in dogs" 
Using dry dog food label information, the hypothesis was tested that the risk of gastric dilatation-volvulus (GDV) increases with an increasing number of soy and cereal ingredients and a decreasing number of animal-protein ingredients among the first four ingredients. A nested case-control study was conducted with 85 GDV cases and 194 controls consuming a single brand and variety of dry food. Neither an increasing number of animal-protein ingredients (P=0.79) nor an increasing number of soy and cereal ingredients (P=0.83) among the first four ingredients significantly influenced GDV risk. An unexpected finding was that dry foods containing an oil or fat ingredient (e.g., sunflower oil, animal fat) among the first four ingredients were associated with a significant (P=0.01), 2.4-fold increased risk of GDV. These findings suggest that the feeding of dry dog foods that list oils or fats among the first four label ingredients predispose a high-risk dog to GDV.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16397192

Now I am not saying for one minute that it is safe to feed Soy - I would not feed Soy to any of my animals or myself given other fators - ie the lectins and the Phytic acid in soy..... but in this study it was actually the fat content that seemed to bring on the Bloat.

So what worked for me - and maybe it worked as my male had his stomach tacked - but you must rememeber that he was seriously ill and almost died - as I got to the ermegency vet (1am in the morning) we walked inside and he went into shock..... so it was touch and go...I was also told that I should not expect him to survive this and I was told that even tacking the stomach could not ensure that it would never happen again, it just decreased the chance..... so what worked for me was switching him off dry food completely, and making his food everyday myself..... he was already 7 years old when he torsioned..... and eating the raw ostrich and cooked carbs and veggies strengthened him and allowed him to live another 6 years.

So perhaps look at removing dry dog food from his diet and look towards making him his food with a meat that is low in fats.

There has also been enough studies shown that dry dog food is bad for out pets....and that pets who are raised on natural foods live longer...

http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapySummary.pdf
See this study which was done which proves dogs canlive up to 3 years longer if fed natural homemade food......

If you want more evidence on this - start a new thread and I will end you all the links in the world which prove this!


----------



## gsdman2

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

We just lost our beloved Mason last night to bloat. We are still in shock. He was 8 1/2 yrs old. We did everything you were supposed to do prevent this and it didn't work. We were able to get him to the vet but he would of likely not survived the surgery. We had no clue this was going on. He ate like normal, went and layed down. About 2 hours after he ate he started pacing and I could tell he didn't feel well. We figured he ate something that didn't agree with him. He was panting, (which was normal for him and he did get upset stomachs at times) and restless. Didn't think to much of it. About 1 hour later he had the dry heaves. Figured once he would actually bring something up he would be ok. So we kept watching him and he still was restless and panting. Then he started to vomit and up came foam and slime. He started to go and lay in the corner of the room (has done this before and kind of normal for him to do). Then we noticed that his gums and tongue were no longer pink, they had a grey cast. I called our vets emergency number and left a message. 

Within 10 minutes our vet returned our call, I described what was happening and she said sounds like bloat and to bring him in immediately. She would meet us at the office. At 10:30 p.m. she opened up her office and had a technician meet us at the door. She took a quick look at him and rushed him back to X-Ray. She came back in and showed us what she found and suspected. She tapped his stomach and he already had blood in it. He had severe torsion and his stomach was sooo bloated. She had already called in another surgeon to help with the surgery if this is what we decided. 

She explained that he was really bad, he was going down very fast, had a very rapid heart rate and was in shock. After viewing the X-ray ourselves, the hopes that it wasn't to advanced was all gone. We had to let our boy go. This nightmare all happened within a 4 hour span. He showed no signs of extended stomach until I was on the phone with the vet. In less than 1/2 hour his stomach was the size of a basketball and was massively twisted. 

It is an experience I never ever want to go through again!!! I am on pins and needles with our other GSD Ruby. Ruby has had DM for over 1 year and is also an EPI dog. With all her medical problems you would of thought she would of gone first. I feel absolutely horrified that he had to suffer for those 4 hours. Thank God this happened when we were home and were able to get him to the vet to stop his suffering. Our hearts are broke, I can't stop crying, and we just lost one of our best friends. We are having him cremated so we can bring him back home where he belongs. I am going to miss him so...... I am posting this so if any one out there has the slightest hesitation of what is going on with their GSD, please don't hesitate, get help immediately! Don't make the same mistake we did.


----------



## Brightelf

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Oh, I am so very sorry that this happened. Mason had the best home, the best love. From your writing, it is clear how very deeply he was loved and a true family member. It sounds like such a horrible experience for you. Sweet Mason is out of pain, because you were unselfish making such a horrible decision, and you so kindkly, lovingly, gave him the gift of his peace. My heart breaks for you now. I am sure Mason is watching over you. Such a life full of love should happen to every dog. May you find some comfort in knowing that Mason lived a life well-loved.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I am so very sorry
















Mason


----------



## middleofnowhere

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I am very sorry to hear about Mason. Having experienced bloat with one of my dogs I can understand how you could have missed the signs.

The irony of the signs of bloat is that the behavior is very similiar to normal behavior. So the dog has to vomit. Most dogs vomit from time to time. So he's pacing, he paces from time to time. 

I was lucky to catch Barker the Elder - only because when I went to turn her outside I noticed her stomach was tight. The vomit hadn't looked the way I expected bloat vomit to look. It was the most 3-D vomit I'd seen - The bubbles were large, high and did not pop easily. I could almost pick up all the vomit in my hands easily. I, too, had initially thought that she was just going to vomit. If I hadn't touched her gut, I don't know how long it would have been before I discovered what was wrong. 

I wish luck had been with you and Mason.


----------



## FORRUGER

*Re: Help needed with bloat*



> Originally Posted By: Berg Wanderer
> That is why I really give more to the fact that bloat is more of a genetic issue in large breed dogs just as hips would be and eyes ect......
> And if your dog is going to get bloat then there is nothing you can do about it anyway except staple the stomach into place which is something they are doing at one army base here in Germany as a prevention.


I too believe bloat is primarily a genetic problem. Ironically many years ago I had just read up on it when low and behold a week later my 3 yr old male shepherd developed the classic symptoms and I called my vet in the middle of the night. The newest vet to the office was on call and he didn't want to get up and told me that IF it was torsion most dogs die on the operating table anyways and said bring him in in the morning. Click. To make a long story short, I sat up all night with my dog and the senior vet immediately took him into surgery the next morning and it was a miracle he survived. He too had to have his spleen removed and some of the stomach tissue had necrosed from lack of blood flow from the twisted stomach and he was given a 10% chance of survival. He beat the odds. He survived. His sire had died of torsion and as well as other dogs in his lines I later found out. My dog had done nothing that the books say lead to bloat... It just happened. Fortunately after he recovered he lived 6 more years. I think tacking the stomach to the chest wall is the best preventive I"ve heard of. And recovery time from the surgery is supposed to very quick so I've heard too. 

And to the folks who lost Mason, I'm so sorry.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

It also happens because of an underlying health condition. I know of quite a few dogs who have bloated because of a tumor. When the vet opened them up to tack the stomach they found cancer.


----------



## clfike

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

gsdman2, I'm so very sorry to hear about Mason. Sasha had bloat about 5 or 6 years ago. Luckily, we recognized something was wrong almost immediately because (unlike Mason) she was displaying behaviors totally wrong for her. Her stomach was already twisted but they were able to save her because we caught it so soon. We had them tack her stomach while she was in there. We know exactly how it happened, way too much activity before eating. Now we know and make sure we keep them quiet before and after eating and went back to twice a day feedings. It was a very emotional thing to go through and I can't even imagine what pain you experienced.


----------



## TxRider

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Wow, my adopted GSD is a great free feeder and I was thinking about going to twice a day feeds, not anymore though.. Free feeding it is.

Glad I put her on a grain free food too.


----------



## angierose

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Can someone answer a quick question for me? My GSD is about eleven weeks now, and I follow the one hour before/after eating exercise rule with her already. My husband says bloat should really only be a problem in large dogs, where I assumed it was mainly large breed dogs (no matter the age) that are inclined towards this. 

He thinks I am being overly paranoid. I figure that even if I'm wrong, I'm setting us up for habits that we'll need to continue when she's bigger, so no harm done. So does anyone know if puppies can succumb to bloat?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Yep! They can. The vet office I go to just did an emergency GDV/tacking surgery on an 8 week old basset puppy that had bloated. I didn't know it-totally shocked! They haven't seen one before-but you wonder if it doesn't happen and people just find the puppy in the am, expired. Scary, huh?


----------



## angierose

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Thanks for the fast response. I had kind of been hoping I was wrong.







Very glad to be educated though, my family has owned large breed dogs in the past and had never heard of this, although for some reason I knew it happens in horses and the like.


----------



## Crown2009

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

That really made good reading. Like you all say it is very hard to know exactly what we should be doing and not doing to reduce the risk of this horrible problem. I have also heard people mention about raising food and water bowls and other people say keep everything at ground level as dogs in the wild do only eat from the ground, so the dog must be our best teachers in this, alot of people also say to feed your dog raw meat and bone, as once again this is what dogs would eat in the wild, they would not walk into a supermarket and get there food in a tin or bag, I wonder how many wolfs in the wild get tortion or bloat as they are the same build as the gsd deep chested.....hmmm something to ponder over....


----------



## 3K9Mom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

1. Stress.
2. Genetics
3. Age.

All the other stuff is guessing. I think it's worth doing. I don't let my kids run around before/after eating; I feed raw and I don't use raised feeders. But after losing one dog to partial torsions surgery and having another dog (non-GSD) bloat on an empty stomach, I spoke to a lot of specialists, and this is all we could come up with as true predictors of bloat. 

Any dog, any breed, can bloat, regardless of food, at any time. Be prepared for bloat. 

Don't think that your diet /exercise regime protects your dog. Have GAs-X on hand at ALL Times (my dog bloated when I was 35 miles from home but I had Gas X in my car). Know where ALL of the emergency clinics that can do decompression AND surgery are located in your surrounding area. Know the symptoms, print them up and paste them inside a cabinet or to your refrigerator for family, pet sitter, etc. Your car too, if you don't think you'll remember them. 

Expect bloat to happen and be relieved if it doesn't. Don't be caught flat footed if it does. Seconds and minutes count when a dog starts to bloat: the better prepared you are, the better your dog's chances for survival.


----------



## 3K9Mom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

To the OP, FKeeley,

I didn't see this addressed, but your statement 



> Quote:
> He didn't think his stomach had twisted, and if it did, probably not all the way.


Makes me nervous. Your vet doesn't THINK there was torsion (or partial torsion)? Didn't he take x rays? An ultrasound would be better, but x rays usually show stomach position well enough. 

Even if you opt not to have surgery done, you should know what is going on in there. If your dog bloats again you may need to take your dog to _another _vet (an e-clinic perhaps). Knowing whether your dog if started out torsed would be important info for the treating vet to have at that point. 

I would want a definitive answer.


----------



## boscopup

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I haven't read this whole thread, but will chime in with my dog's experience. I just lost Bosco a month ago. He bloated, and his stomach and intestines torsioned. We got him to the e-vet about 45 minutes after he started vomiting white foam. He'd been acting completely normal just 30 minutes before that. The vet actually thought he wasn't bloating... He said there was stomach splinting, or something like that, but didn't feel bloat in the stomach. Bosco was still walking around and able to lay down. The vet didn't think he was bad off. Then he did x-rays and saw that the intestines were torsioned, so they opened him up. By that time, 3/4 of his stomach and about half of his intestines were necrosed. He was also in renal failure (they did bloodwork before the surgery). Being a 9 year old dog, the vet said he wouldn't be able to survive on 1/4 of a stomach. Bosco was euthanized during the surgery. We allowed the vet to explore in there for research purposes (this was the second case of intestinal torsion he'd seen in his long career). He found that the intestines were very badly twisted. He actually couldn't get them untangled postmortem.

Bosco's history... His dad was German show lines (imported straight from Germany). His mom was American, but bred from German dogs a few generations back. Bosco was very deep chested and very narrow. When laying on his back, his chest stuck up several inches, and it was only about 4" wide at the narrowest part. 

Bosco had had an incident 6 years ago (when he was 3) where his intestines filled with gas. We'd rushed him to the e-vet (a different one), and they'd sent us home with souvenier x-rays of his intestines filled with gas, and an rx to give him Gas-X when we got home. They didn't even empty his intestines of gas before sending him home, which I always questioned. That's why we haven't been back to that e-vet, and we now go to another one. Thankfully, he'd been fine once he got the Gas-X. From then on, any time he looked gassy, I gave him Gas-X and he'd be fine. He would have issues with some foods, especially pork. He couldn't eat much pork at all, as I think it was too fatty.

Bosco was raw fed from about 15 weeks old. I actually didn't feel safe giving him kibble as when he ate it, he'd then tank up a ton on water right afterward, then often vomit the whole meal back up. So we stuck with raw, which he did well on as long as I didn't give him a lot of fatty stuff. We stuck to mostly chicken with occasional beef or turkey or rabbit or deer.

The night he died, he'd had a regular raw meal of chicken, which he'd never had problems with.

It's been almost 4 weeks, and I so vividly remember that horrible night. I was stuck at home, because I had a 3 week old nursing baby, plus two other kids who were already asleep. I sent my husband to the e-vet, and the vet called me as soon as he was done with the initial examination, while the techs were drawing blood and such, and he actually said to "rest easy", because he thought Bosco would be fine - he wasn't presenting as a dog with bloat. It wasn't long after that that we got the call about the x-rays, and when the call came after surgery had started, I knew it was bad because it was too soon for a successful surgery to be completed.

I miss my sweet Bosco pup, but I hope that the vet was able to use his case to further the research efforts. The vet said we did everything right and got him there quickly. In fact, he said that most of the time, people don't bring the dog in until they've collapsed. He very rarely saw a dog come in as early as Bosco, but he just went so quick, and without even showing that much in outward signs. Just from x-rays to surgery, his intestines had gotten a LOT worse, much more than the vet expected (and this is an experienced vet - the best surgeon around here). Bosco's breeder said his stomach had probably already torsioned before I even brought him inside, based on my description, and while he looked like he was certainly uncomfortable, he was not acting like a typical dog with torsion.

When we look for a puppy in a few years, we'll certainly be looking at the build of the parents... avoiding the extremely deep chested, narrow build that Bosco had.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: Help needed with bloat*








to you, to all of you that have lost a dog to bloat


----------



## Crown2009

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Sorry if I sound thick here, but can you tell me what an e-vet is? is it a online vet that you ask for advice from on a live basis? if so can anyone give me a good one as I have seen them online but have never known weather they are scams or not... by the way I am in the united Kingdom. Thanks in advance


----------



## boscopup

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

e-vet in my post = emergency vet. They're open nighttime and weekends when regular vets are closed, and they're equipped to handle emergency situations.


----------



## Crown2009

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Thanks now I know, I mean I should of known....lol catch you all around online, bye for now


----------



## Effie325

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Bloat scares me. I've never had a "bloat breed" before as despite their deep chests, most sighthounds do not get bloat (at least the breeds I've had don't). It's also not generally a huge problem in Goldens, though it does happen. Seems I hear about it all the time, though, in GSDs, and I've even known a few who died from it. It scares me to death! I appreciate this thread being here. Lots of interesting info to wade through.


----------



## meisha98

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

Just got a Cornell Univ. College Of Vet. Medicine newsletter about Bloat in the mail. Their breed list of top breeds for bloat risk is- Great Danes, Akitas, Ger. Shepherds, Greyhounds, St, Bernards, Labs and Irish Wolfhounds. Smaller breeds with elongated abdomens such as Dachshunds and Bassett Hounds are also at risk. The latest timing between meals and large amounts of water or strenuous exercise afterwards is two hours! Risks are also reduced by feeding two-three small meals a day. Thought I'd share this...


----------



## chrissyho

*Re: Help needed with bloat: a must read for GSD owners*

I just got a puppy so I was doing some research about bloat.

Theories abound as to why bloat occurs. Among these are: 

§ too much swelling of dry food once ingested; 

§ exercise within an hour after eating; 

§ drinking excess water after a meal; 

§ laxity in the ligaments holding the stomach

Recommendations for prevention include:

§  soaking dry food thoroughly before feeding

§ not allowing your Shepherd to drink water or exercise until an hour after it has eaten

§ Digestive enzymes have also been suggested as a possible aid against bloat. 

Symptoms include depression; drooling, restlessness, failed attempts to vomit and a swollen abdomen.

I hope this help...


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## gbocrafty

*website for bloat symptoms*

I came across this website and thought it would be of interest to this group. I haven't seen this before and it seems to give a good description and symptoms.

http://www.bmdinfo.org/Health/Reference_Guide_Bloat_GDV.pdf


----------



## Riley's Mom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*

I don't think there's anything we can do whatsoever to guarantee our dog will not bloat. We can take precautions and do our best to prevent it and it could happen anyway. 

What we do to help prevent it:

1) Feed in raised bowls (although the e-vet said this is controversial apparently not totally proven to be either good or bad). To me it makes more sense to feed in raised bowls because the dog doesn't have to do so much gulping and ya know how some dogs do that "grab & catch" the food? They pretty much *have* to be taking in more air this way it seems.

2) No exercise 1hr before or after meals and this includes walks as my vet said walks are considered mild exercise.

3) We're feeding dehydrated raw now but going back to when we were feeding dry ... I did my own test of putting a few kibbles of grained dry in one cereal bowl and a few kibbles of no-grain dry in another and added some water. The grained food puffed up to like double it's size as it soaked in the water. If the no-grain puffed it was so little that you couldn't tell. The grained food got spongy the no-grain did not, it stayed solid. 

I started to think if this stuff was going in my stomach, I would not want something going down that was going to expand and fluff up. I thought how uncomfortable that would feel and how a dog could eat 2c of dry food and have it wind up being more like 4c's after it expanded. It comes to mind that food expanding like that might just be taking on gas or perhaps creating gas??? Either way after about 30min there's way more in the stomach than there was in the food bowl. It makes me think that feeding dry grained food might just be an invitation to bloat. 

I don't know if the food I tested had citric acid in it or not. I didn't know about the citric acid possibly being a contributor at that time or I would have checked this.

4) When we fed dry we mixed canned w/it, which is supposed to be another way to help prevent bloat per our e-vet and some articles I've read.

5) Watch the water consumption especially before/after exercise.

5) Initially I was concerned about feeding dehydrated because I thought of it swelling in the stomach as it re-hydrated. I mix their meals one meal ahead of time. In other words after they eat breakfast, I mix dinner, let it soak for no less than 30 min and then it gets covered and goes in the fridge until meal-time. I take the food out when I give them their thyroid pills one hour before it's time to eat. Same routine for every meal. Their dehydrated food has every opportunity to complete the "puffing up" process before it's given to the dogs and I've found in testing 3 varieties of dehydrated raw, there really is very little if any puffing up at all in any of them. I feel confident my dog's food is not going to grow in their stomachs.

In response to the original post, I thought the only way to know for sure if the stomach twisted was thru xray and it sounds like this wasn't done. I would insist on it.

I now keep GasX caps in the cupboard.

Marjorie, I agree with you but I've seen lists that have GSD's on them, too so that's like a double whammy. I don't know why Purdue would not have included GSD's. I've also never heard of smaller dogs bloating and I do believe a dog's size has something to do with things.

Like Tracie said, I'm not a vet so this is not medical advice but what I do with my own dogs.


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## Riley's Mom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*



> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereIt was either the Purdue study or something in WDJ that said excersize before and after eating wasn't a contributing factor.


Your dog bouncing around with or without food in it's stomach seems like a good way to open the door for bloat. I don't need a scientific study to tell me that my dog's stomach is being jostled around when he's running around the back yard. That's plain old common sense, no scientific study needed. 

If you've ever seen a semi driving down the road that's carrying what they call "swinging meat" that's a real good visual for what I see as a dog with a full stomach romping and stomping around. Truckers carrying loads that shift (tankers etc ... another good comparison) have to be *additionally* careful because their loads shift and there's no way to prevent it. A full stomach = the contents of a tanker sloshing around just asking to "tip over."


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## Riley's Mom

*Re: Help needed with bloat*



> Originally Posted By: angieroseHe thinks I am being overly paranoid. I figure that even if I'm wrong, I'm setting us up for habits that we'll need to continue when she's bigger, so no harm done. So does anyone know if puppies can succumb to bloat?


I don't think there's any such thing as being to paranoid about bloat. Plain and simple it's a killer and a fast one. I've been told if you suspect bloat you MIGHT have an hour to save your dog. My e-vet is 45min way ... 

When we took Riley a few months ago suspecting bloat they told us about a 3mos old pup that had bloated the week before. He survived but he was only 3mos old and so yes, puppies can bloat. Riley didn't bloat he did have an obstruction and he's fine now. Your hubby would prolly call me paranoid but better paranoid than to not be prepared and at least try to keep it from happening.


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## kkalligher

*Re: Help needed with bloat: a must read for GSD owners*

I don't think we will ever get a straight answer to this question. I lost a GSD to gastric torsion when he was only 9 years old. I also kept tropical fish and goldfish since I was very young, not to mention other animals. Had cats all my life. By now you are wondering, OK so what! I started feeding that GSD kibble at the advice of our vet, (too many reasons to list, but he advised it). He developed gastric torsion and died, too late to be saved. I kept and bred many varieties of tropical fish and goldfish. Had so much success that I was suppling local pet shops and even a local chain. Cats when I was young were fed scraps and all the mice they could catch. The vets that I have come in contact with will encourage kibble over wet. Fish food has had a remarkable change. Dog food has had a long evolution of change and mega-producers.
After 40 years of raising and breeding fish I just ran out of time with family and work so I stopped. After some years in hiatus I started with my fish again. Set up good facilities and bought some really great specimens. But I was not having much success, my fish died and some really great specimans would be well one day and swimming in circles or floating upside down and then continued to die slowly. After several years of futile attempts I decided to quit. I did. As I got to thinking about it and why I could be so successful and yet fail so miserably. After much thought I got one of those AAAHA moments. I recalled that with all my fish I fed flakes, brine shrimp, worms of all sorts, even bits of liver. My recent failures found me feeding these little pebbles of dried food. So, I started to think about dried kibble and all the problems with animals. We had multiple cats. Our vet always recommended kibble. The males all had urinary tract plugging. This required extreme measures and kept recurring for years. So we stopped feeding kibble and turned to wet food and some table scraps. Never again had urinary tract problems. Well, I wonder, I said to myself, so I set up another aquarium with a few varieties of fish and goldfish, went back to shrimp, liver bits, flakes and frozen worms. My latest foray into fish and all are alive now for 6 years and counting. Well, since I bought my latest shepherd and the memory of the last one, I decided to feed raw and no kibble. Chicken backs, necks, parts, beef ribs, eggs, some prepared raw diets, etc. NO DRY FOOD! This is not a scientific study, but it is a 6 decades of animals and thinking about the successes and failures. All of the problems I had were with animals on dry food diets. Just take kibble and rehydrate it for a couple hours and see what it turns into. So the animal gulps its food, fills up slowly because it is so small and when it re-hydrates in the stomach and intestine it forms a massive bolus of concrete. I will feed nothing that will re hydrate as it enters the stomach and intestines. I am convinced that what I fed was the cause of all the early and tortuous deaths of all these animals.


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## fkeeley

Now that's interesting observation. I'm wondering if I was to moist the dry food prior to giving it to my dog, would that work as well? I believe, at least on my situation, that i need to give kibbles because I want to make sure that my dog gets the right amount of protein, carbs, vitamins, etc. I don't have time to be preparing food and I'm not familiar with raw. But I never want to go through what I went through with my dog. He didn't die of bloat, but i worried so much for the rest of his life, bless his heart. It's so painful to see it happen.


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## kkalligher

It certainly will help. But you really don't have to worry a lot about vitamins and minerals. If you are feeding multiple protein sources: Beef, Chicken, Lamb, Buffalo, Rabbit whatever is available in your area, plus organs and some table scraps you don't have to worry much about balance. They will do fine. Problem is the pet food companies have us all fearful of imbalance. They keep throwing all that junk at us. It's the old Hitler strategy: If you lie often and repeat it often, people will believe it. It's baloney! Don't eat baloney at all, too many chemicals.


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## LisaT

fkeeley said:


> Now that's interesting observation. I'm wondering if I was to moist the dry food prior to giving it to my dog, would that work as well?


A number of dog owners do just that, for just that reason. There is probably mention of it somewhere in this thread.


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## LDB158

After reading some of this, I really think Trixie may have bloated. She was a lab/border collie mix and was 10 years old. She hated meeting new people and dogs. Friends of mine had come over with their dog and she saw the dog in our yard through the fence and started going nuts. That night, she had thrown up about 5 times in a 1 hour time period and it was mucousy and clearish looking. After that she just kept dry heaving and nothing would come up. She also would not eat any of her food or treats. I took her to the vet and told them I worried about bloat, the vet said that she didn't display the distended abdomen and she would be in extreme pain if she was bloated. She just gave me something to help with her nausea. 

A couple of days later, I took her back to the vet because she was still not eating and started having seizures. She also was having a hard time breathing if she was just sitting still. Found out, that she had lung cancer, which the vet believed stemmed from a brain tumor. I had to put her down, because the vet said the medication she would give me would kill her in a couple of days, since she wasn't eating (would cause stomach ulcers/bleeding). I'm just wondering if the throwing up was caused by bloat, or maybe just because she wasn't feeling good at all within her final days.


Just wondering, what all do you have in your cabinets to assist in preventing bloat? What would be the best type of dry food to feed? What homeopathic remedies do yall keep on hand? I've read some people say something about charcoal and Gas-x - Is this Gas-X and Charcoal for people, or is there doggy types? (Excuse my ignorance). I have two german shepherds now and they are my life. I just recently got a german shepherd 2 days ago and she's still skittish and nervous all the time, so she's the one I am most worried about right now.


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## LisaT

Dogs will throw up for lots of reasons - cancer will make them sick to their stomach, particularly when it is advanced. It sounds more likely that your dear Trixie was sufferering more from the cancer, though bloat can't be ruled out, sometimes tumors pressing the wrong way can cause some bloating.

Both the Gas-X and the activated charcoal that folks use are the types used for humans.  They won't help if the dog has torsioned, if the stomach has twisted, but best to give it on the way to the vet, or at the first signs of discomfort. Charcoal will absorb nutrients and medicine, so that is best given away from food or meds.


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## GSDLoverII

Adding Kaiser's Bloat Thread for reference. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/134046-kaiser-bloated-tonight.html

Also, adding Gretchen's (Ania's dog)Bloat thread that may be on here already.
I was looking all over for it to find the soft ecollar info.
Thanks Ania, and how is Gretchen doing almost a year later?
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/107711-gretchen-bloated-20-stomach-removed.html


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## GSDLoverII

"When the dogs have dental or veterinary appointments, the handlers are there right alongside their dogs. The U.S. Army Europe Military Working Dog Program is in the process of making sure all dogs have a gastropexy operation, a surgical procedure performed on large-breed dogs to prevent bloat, a life-threatening condition in which the stomach flips over and expands, trapping air and gases in the stomach."

*http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=51700*


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## Sharbel

Elaine said:


> There was research done out of Purdue a number of years ago and all they found was elevating the food dish might increase the risk of bloating, yet there are a lot of people that swear by raising the dish. There isn't any evidence that wet food, dry food, water drinking, or anything really affects it, it is just a crap shoot as to who is going to bloat and who isn't.
> 
> My personal opinion is to not elevate a food dish above the point that the dog doesn't have his head all the way down. By this, I am talking about feeding the older dog that has trouble bending all the way to the floor to eat. I will put my dish on an upside-down icecream bucket to ease their necks but not elevate too much. I also am careful about exercise right before or after eating. I want my dogs to be calm with a resting heart rate and resting temperature.


Elaine you are absolutely correct. I feed Richie on stand that is 30 cm off the flloor. His neck while eating is slightly bend downwards as he is a tall dog. To eat from a dish on the floor is little hard due to his size although to serve him something extra like cooked meat on top of his meal which is *ALWAYS for 6 1/2 years* dry Royal Canin German Shepherd 24 (two full swallow dishes tiwice a day one in the morning and one after his walk at night) with a topping of Pedigree wet food .

The water is always nearby BUT he ( by himself and not because of me) NEVER eats or drinks immediately after a walk or exercise but waits for at leat 15 minutes to 1/2 hour before he drinks and 1 hour before he eats. Of course playing my part I will NEVER give him food 1 hour before going to walk or exercise. If I do then we will pospone walking and / or exersise. 

And a final note: *for 6 1/2 years* before his morning meal since I got him at the age of 2 months he drinks half a liter of fresh cow milk. No diarhea,no lose stools no health problems. Dry Food topped with wet food plus half a liter of milk in the morning and always fresh clean water by his dishes!! And some grilled meat and bones once a week.
Bloating occurs ONLY when FEEDING and EXERCISE are too near each other by less than 1 hour. The water is only dangerous soon after a walk or exrersice or soon after feeding.

These dogs if directed to a minimum and left to regulate by themselves are alwys self adjusting on everything they do!!!


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## goatdude

How about eliminating grain in the food? Would it be wise especially with any breed susceptible to bloat to eliminate grain?


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## Samba

Since, at least theoretically, grains can ferment and create more gas in the stomach, it sounds like a reasonable thing.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Sharbel said:


> Bloating occurs ONLY when FEEDING and EXERCISE are too near each other by less than 1 hour.


Unfortunately, that's not true. Many, many dogs bloat for no apparent reason, there was even one dog here on the board that I recall bloated in the middle of the night on an empty stomach, hours after eating OR exercise, and plenty of others who did all the right things and their dogs still bloated. If it were so simple to prevent, bloat wouldn't be nearly as common as it is.


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## Samba

If only it were so simple! Both of mine had normal quiet household days with nothing out of the ordinary or exercise. I can not detect a "formula" as the darn thing seems multifactorial.


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## kensbuns1

Neither of those things happened with our dog. He did drink alot of water, but no heavy exercise. He was very stress however because our Grandchildren and their mother came to live with us. So I dont know what exactly we know about bloat other than if the dog gets it go to the vet fast and have a huge allowance on your CC.


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## FuryanGoddess

We don't know what caused Lady to bloat. Joe thinks that maybe she dug up on old bone and got impacted? She had dug a big hole under the porch the day before. We fed her like normal... she started making weird noises and my hubs tossed her outside on the deck in the middle of the night... thought she was just hot and restless. Lady preferred to be outside.... I got up in the morning, saw she was outside, thought somehow she ran away and was back w/ her tail between her legs, lookin' all guilty. I put her in her kennel. She died in their by noon. Poor girl  It was a year ago on the 20th.


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## 3K9Mom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Unfortunately, that's not true.* Many, many dogs bloat for no apparent reason, *there was even one dog here on the board that I recall bloated in the middle of the night on an empty stomach, hours after eating OR exercise, and plenty of others who did all the right things and their dogs still bloated. If it were so simple to prevent, bloat wouldn't be nearly as common as it is.


 
Worth repeating. My dog bloated at 4:30 pm. She last ate at about 9am. She was resting in the back seat of the car, snoozing on and off. She loved to go for drives...she grew up cruising around in a car: we were always travelling somewhere. So she wasn't stressed. She started to salivate heavily, then drool like someone turned on a faucet.

No water. No food. No exercise. No stress. Happy calm sleepy dog.

Not a GSD. Not even a breed predisposed to GDV. 

I had Gas-X with me in my bag AWAY FROM HOME -- because dogs can bloat away from home. It does no good if it's in your kitchen or bathroom cabinet. 

That Gas-X, having memorized the list of symptoms, and certainly some amazing work by my veterinarians saved her life that day.

In the end, months later, bloat took her life. But we had several good months, with great memories. And she taught me a valuable lesson -- anytime, anywhere under any conditions -- and ANY dog -- bloat can strike.

Once we accept this, we'll prepare for the worst. If it never happens, great. If it does, you'll know exactly what to do, where to go, and you'll have enough lots of current (unexpired) Gas-X to buy you time.


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## JudynRich

When my children were babies I worried about SIDS, now with my girls, I worry about bloat. Does anyone have any information on the rates of bloat with dogs eating the raw diet? Mia and Bella are getting spayed in June and I am considering asking my vet about attaching their stomach (like they do in the army). My other shephed lived to be 12. I never worried much about bloat with her since I knew very little about it. My neighbor lost her Irish Setter to bloat, my brother lost his Weinmariner last year to bloat.


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## Samba

My vet just spayed his female German Shepherd. He did a gastropexy at the spay.


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## 3K9Mom

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but first, dogs that eat raw can -- and do -- bloat. We've seen it here on this forum. 

And dogs with pexies can bloat. They won't experience torsion. But they can still bloat, which is excruciatingly painful. Also a bloated stomach can cut off blood supply to vital organs inside. We still have to be prepared.


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## goatdude

So it seems that if your dog is predisposed to bloat there is very little that can be done to prevent it? What has been proven to decrease the possibilities of bloat?


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## GSDLoverII

3K9Mom said:


> I hate to be the bearer of bad news but first, dogs that eat raw can -- and do -- bloat. We've seen it here on this forum.
> 
> 
> That is absolutely right!
> Just went through 1 bloat w/torsion.
> Got there in time to save the stomach.
> Spleen removed, stomach tacked.
> About a week ago, I gave Kaiser a greenie.
> Put on a leather glove and held it so that he didn't GULP it down.
> Last piece he didn't even chew, just swallowed it, even though it wasn't even THAT big.
> Sure Enough, 15 minutes later, he started will all the bloat symptoms.
> THIS IS LIKE 3 WEEKS AFTER HE BLOATED AND TORSIONED AND GOT HIS STOMACH TACKED DOWN!
> GAVE him 3 GAS X and waited 15 minutes and it went away.
> I was in Miami visiting my mom and was this close to going to her vet.
> *HE HAD A GREENIE THE DAY HE BLOATED TOO.*
> *ANIA'S DOG BLOATED FROM A CHICKEN BONE.*
> 
> I hate to be the bearer of bad news but first, dogs that eat raw can -- and do -- bloat. We've seen it here on this forum.
> *http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/107711-gretchen-bloated-20-stomach-removed.html*
> 
> *NEEDLESS TO SAY, HE WILL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER GREENIE AS LONG AS HE LIVES!*
> *THAT IS A FACT, EITHER WILL MY OTHER 2.*
> 
> Our other 2 GSD's just got gastropexys 2 weeks ago.
> Now all 3 have their stomach's tacked, but they can SILL BLOAT w/o the torsion.
> It can still be deadly because
> "And dogs with pexies can bloat. They won't experience torsion. But they can still bloat, which is excruciatingly painful. Also a bloated stomach can cut off blood supply to vital organs inside. We still have to be prepared."
> As 3K9Mom said.


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## JudynRich

The info is helpful. I guess I will have Gas X everywhere. Neither dog has ever experienced any signs of bloat -they are both still young-but Mia is so big and very barrel chested. Bella will probably stay under 50 pounds, Mia is about 70 pounds.


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## ken k

i dont know is its been mentioned in this thread but on super hot days, its best to give them ice chips instead of water


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## GSDLoverII

*I saw this out there on the web.*
*Truth is, nobody really knows what causes bloat.*


*Ice Causes Bloat?*


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## Cassidy's Mom

GSDLoverII said:


> *Truth is, nobody really knows what causes bloat.*


Yep, that's the scary thing about it.


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## Zisso

I am always grateful for threads like this. They are very educational. I knock on wood as I say this, but I have not been faced with my dogs bloating yet. I know it is a possibility every day. I feed them their kibble in ground level dishes, their raw in their crates. After they eat, they are confined indoors for a bit so they can rest and digest. I have Gas X on hand just in case & have two vet numbers, our normal vet and the E vet numbers memorized, and programmed in my phone. They are both no more than 10 minutes from our house.


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## LisaT

GSDLoverII said:


> *I saw this out there on the web.*
> *Truth is, nobody really knows what causes bloat.*
> 
> *Ice Causes Bloat?*



Small world, the author of that is on three lists that I am on. He's credible.


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## ken k

GSDLoverII said:


> *I saw this out there on the web.*
> *Truth is, nobody really knows what causes bloat.*
> 
> 
> *Ice Causes Bloat?*



aint that the truth, food dish to high, food dish too low, too much water, ice chips, I had to put my last GSD down due to bloat, he was 10, and was not in the best of health to begin with, his started by lunging and jumping at the dog next door, talking to a breeder, she mentioned that there also looking into stress causing bloat, I`ve had the GSD all my life, 30, 40 years ago there was no such thing as bloat in the GSD that i can remember, I guess this is going to be one of life's mystery`s, I wish someone would figure it out, so i dont have to worrie so much


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## GSDLoverII

ken k said:


> aint that the truth, food dish to high, food dish too low, too much water, ice chips, I had to put my last GSD down due to bloat, he was 10, and was not in the best of health to begin with, his started by lunging and jumping at the dog next door, talking to a breeder, she mentioned that there also looking into stress causing bloat, I`ve had the GSD all my life, 30, 40 years ago there was no such thing as bloat in the GSD that i can remember, I guess this is going to be one of life's mystery`s, I wish someone would figure it out, so i dont have to worrie so much


 
Even the Perdue Bloat Study isn't conclusive.
Like you said, raised bowls, or not?
Withhold water before and after a meal, or not?
I know what you mean about worrying.
3 gastropexys and I still have to worry about it!


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## Zisso

So here is a question for you all.
Zisso loves Ice...in the winter when the water buckets freeze over he will break the ice to eat it. In the summer, if I drop an ice cube, he usually gets it before I can and I can't get it back(he will run from me if he has ice & try to get it) so the Q is...is giving ice a big no no when they are over heated, or at all times? I mean, I always thought that some things in moderation are okay. It seems like ice in moderation might still be okay. I know that when trying to cool a dog off we have to careful and do it slowly, just as we would with humans, but really...No ice ever?


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## ken k

GSDLoverII said:


> Even the Perdue Bloat Study isn't conclusive.
> Like you said, raised bowls, or not?
> Withhold water before and after a meal, or not?
> I know what you mean about worrying.
> 3 gastropexys and I still have to worry about it!



3? oh my, the only thing I do that I think i`m protecting them, is their feed once a day, in the evening, and have water, and about an hour later off to bed, and on real hot days there water intake is monitored


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## kensbuns1

Madison gets a piece of ice after her walks. It keeps her from gulping to much water. I am no expert so I say do what you feel is comfortable for you. I just lost a dog to Bloat and honestly as far as I know there were no real reason for it other than him drinking a bunch of water. I dont think any one really knows what causes it. It is just the luck of the draw. The er Vet says if it is gonna happen its gonna happen there was nothing we could have done to prevent it.


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## 3K9Mom

Zisso, I let my kids eat snow and they break off the ice in their pool during the winter, run around with the pieces then lie down and chomp down some. I don't feed them ice in the summer, but that's because a sudden cool down of a hot body is reckless anyhow. Not because of bloat issues. 

Is ice more dangerous than raw but less dangerous than kibble? I don't think anyone can answer any of that. I think it's genetics, stress (which is all about genetics) and age (which ties back to genetics in large part). 

I can wave a rabbit's foot over my dog's bowl every night before he eats. If he doesn't bloat, does that mean it worked? If I feed him raw, and he doesn't bloat, I might think that means raw doesn't cause bloat. Is there cause and effect for either? Or are both superstitious thinking? I think the Purdue study has some useful information, but the methods are questionable. So I pay attention to them (I don't need to use a raised feeder -- none of my dogs have neck issues -- so I don't). But is there cause and effect? I don't know.

For me, honestly, it's just easier to say I have no gosh darn idea. They like to play in snow. If they take a big mouthful and swallow it, I don't freak out. My stressing about what they eat constantly or whether they should rest one hour or two would cause them stress, and stress DOES seem to have causative effect toward bloat. 

So, I let my kids live and enjoy themselves. I don't take stupid risks. But I learned last year that when a life is cut short abruptly, I found a lot of solace in knowing that my dog lived every single day to his fullest. He played hard. He ran fast. He rolled in snow and chased snowballs. Did any of these contribute to his death? I'm certain that they did not. But he packed as much living as any dog could into his exuberant little life. 

We can drive ourselves and our dogs crazy. Or we can do what's reasonable and let them live happy full lives. I manage the risk by making sure that I know how to respond to bloat. If I can't prevent it, then I can respond swiftly and efficiently. For me, that's a KNOWN in a vast sea of unknowns. That's how I choose to live with it.


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## roxy84

ken k said:


> 3? oh my, the only thing I do that I think i`m protecting them, is their feed once a day, in the evening, and have water, and about an hour later off to bed, and on real hot days there water intake is monitored


ive always worried more about feeding larger meals at one sitting as ive seen "evidence" implicating large meals as a culprit with bloat. i feel better feeding at least 2x per day to reduce the meal size. who knows?

i agree with the above post regarding stress (and i think that poster is pretty sharp). it is the one thing that i seek to keep at a low level in my effort to prevent bloat.


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## hunnefeld1

I just had to bring my GSD into the animal hospital last night after he threw up alot. After they took x-rays I got the horrible news. My GSD's stomach twisted. They had to put him into surgery last night. The vet and surgeon said the only real preventative thing they can do is tack the stomach down, and they told me that's not even 100% preventive. They also told me feed the dog less but more frequently, watch how much and how fast he drinks water, and no exercise or playing for at least 1 hour after eating (this will allow the food to settle). This has to be the worst thing my dog has and will ever go though. My advice is just watch how much he eats drinks and DO NOT exersize or play with him for at least an hour.


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## brutus_

*Help with Bloat*

Hi, 

I'm new to the forum and found many intresting information, since last saturday my GSD hasn't been well.

He's been restless, can't move, not eating, just drinking water and he's been breathing very heavily ... first of all i thought it was cause of the amount of fireworks there has been in the past few days. (since he was a puppy he was always scared of the fireworks)

I took him to the Vet on an emergency call and he found a bloated stomach with water.

He gave the dog the following medication Lasilix 40mg 3 times daily.

Today is the second day of medication and i can't seem to see him get any better.


Any suggestions? I really can't handle my GSD being in such shape since he's been a great companion.

Anyone can suggest what can help to get him better? maybe a position to put him in so maybe he can take better breats? Should i feed him?


I'm so new to this! Please help.

Much appreciated.

Keith

Malta:help:


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## sondraham

My GSD of 8yrs was rushed to ER to find out he had bloat, He had the GDV surgery and now he has an aspirated lung which caused an ammonia. Does anyone have some advice on some additional herbs or natural remedies I can give him because he is on allot of meds.


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## Aldo

All of the bloat info here is concerning. This is NOT something new. My parents lost a GSD in 1976 from a stomach torsion (not called bloat then). My 8 month old INHALES his food, and BELCHES more than I have EVER seen any dog! He will belch after drinking a lot of water too. I comfort myself by believing this will minimize his risk, but I really don't have any idea if it is true or not. I had stopped soaking his food a few weeks ago (Orijen) but he got HORRIBLE gas...smelled like invisible death. That has mostly gone away with soaking the food again. He eats 3x daily, about 1.5 cups each meal; water warmed in the microwave and mostly absorbed (so it doesn't expand later). Can't worry too much about this stuff, just do what you can and relax.


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## fkeeley

:thinking: I don't know if I buy on the ice thing. I mean, a little ice, how can that make a dog bloat? I think of us as humans. Food is normally the main cause of bloat; so why not dogs? I know their anatomy is not as ours but it is logical that anything with soy, fiber, etc would make anybody bloat if not in moderation. I spoke with my vet about it and he said that if the dog is going to bloat, it will bloat; nothing can really prevent it. I now always have gas x in my cupboards and the vet's emergency number on speed dial and do follow the no exercise afterwards, no water, good food with no citric acid or soy in it, etc and just pray that it won't happen to me again. I was lucky that Thunder's stomach didn't twist and was able to live the rest of his life, happy, as he should; but what a nighmare it was, everyday thinking he might bloat again. I just pray it won't happen with my Danica


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## Dejavu

Bloat is a scary thing! I've heard about acupressure helping a lot and I found these two links where you can see where the point for bloat is (also called ST36 or Foot Three Mile). 

http://www.luckydoghealth.com/dogacupressurechart.htm

Accupressure Point for Bloat

Video: Three Mile Run Dog Acupressure Point: Acupressure for Arthritic Dogs | eHow.com


----------



## GSDBESTK9

My Sam bloated a couple of years ago, thankfully, so far so good. In his case it was a combination of eating out of a raised-food-bowl and him being such an aggressive eater. We had just gotten back from NC, so no exercise before of after his meal. He started bloating within minutes of him eating. I threw away all the raised-bowls and he now eats from one of those break-fast bowls.


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## fkeeley

I had to get Danica one of those bowls because she devours her food. It's just so darn scary. I wish researchers would focus more on bloat other than Great Danes I tell ya! In the end, not knowing what causes bloat, all we can do is try to prevent the best we can. I still think that what we give them must have a huge part in it and also how their digestive system is working. Like us, that sometimes feel bloated after a huge meal or eating gas producing foods such as beans, soy, too much "ruffage" or veggies, etc. I just pray that it won't happen to me again. Luckly I was home with Thunder bloated so I was able to take him to the vet quickly. Had I been working that day, God only knows in what type of condition I would have found him in.


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## GSDBESTK9

Yep, it is a combination of a lot of things (genetics, kind of kibble, bowl, aggressive eater, etc.). That's why I think feeding Grain Free also helps.


----------



## fkeeley

I totally agree! Once Danica can tolerate grain free, that's what I will feed her. I just hope her stomach agrees with it! I think it will . No raised bowls, continue with the slow feeder bow, no exercising right before/after a meal, etc, etc and just enjoy that little troublemaker of mine :crazy:


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## dogmama

*Gastroplexy*

I went to a seminar this week on bloat. The vets said, as many of you have said, we just don't know enough. We DO know that feeding from raised bowls, gulping food, being male, being excitable, having a change in routine (e.g., owner leaves town), being middle aged or later seems to contribute. They would not affirm that the type of food was the culprit.

Their suggestion was gastroplexy. This clinic is quite modern & does it laproscopically. They said that the dog can still bloat, but you won't have torsion, therefore it isn't a life threatening emergency. Cost = $2K. I'm going to have it done. My Zack is a prime candidate for bloat.

Recovering is 3-4 days of complete rest. No jumping, running, etc. Then 2-3 weeks of leash walks but no crazy exercise (read: ball playing!). Not too bad.


----------



## lrodptl

dogmama said:


> I went to a seminar this week on bloat. The vets said, as many of you have said, we just don't know enough. We DO know that feeding from raised bowls, gulping food, being male, being excitable, having a change in routine (e.g., owner leaves town), being middle aged or later seems to contribute. They would not affirm that the type of food was the culprit.
> 
> Their suggestion was gastroplexy. This clinic is quite modern & does it laproscopically. They said that the dog can still bloat, but you won't have torsion, therefore it isn't a life threatening emergency. Cost = $2K. I'm going to have it done. My Zack is a prime candidate for bloat.
> 
> Recovering is 3-4 days of complete rest. No jumping, running, etc. Then 2-3 weeks of leash walks but no crazy exercise (read: ball playing!). Not too bad.


Our senior recently died as a result of torsion 3 weeks after a splenectomy which the vet said was unrelated. I have my doubts and would add splenectomy to the list. If we had been advised to staple the stomach while he was open for splenectomy I think his life would have continued much further and with great quality.


----------



## dogmama

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss.

Interestingly, the vets said that in the case of torsion, a splenectomy is not uncommon. The torsion causes a lack of blood supply & the spleen often fails first. Don't know if it can cause torsion but if there is more room for the stomach to twist during a bloat, it seems like it could contribute. I'm not a vet, I'm just doing pure speculation.

Again, sorry about your "senior." For me, it's worse than a human passing, in most instances!


----------



## GSDLoverII

Kaiser had his spleen removed when he bloated almost a year ago.


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## lrodptl

dogmama said:


> I'm so sorry to hear of your loss.
> 
> Interestingly, the vets said that in the case of torsion, a splenectomy is not uncommon. The torsion causes a lack of blood supply & the spleen often fails first. Don't know if it can cause torsion but if there is more room for the stomach to twist during a bloat, it seems like it could contribute. I'm not a vet, I'm just doing pure speculation.
> 
> Again, sorry about your "senior." For me, it's worse than a human passing, in most instances!


There is at least one study I found that says a prior splenectomy can predispose to torsion.


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## lrodptl

GSDLoverII said:


> Kaiser had his spleen removed when he bloated almost a year ago.


This would scare me.

Gastric dilatation-volvulus as complication after ... [J Vet Med A Physiol Pathol Clin Med. 2006] - PubMed result


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## GSDLoverII

lrodptl said:


> This would scare me.
> 
> Gastric dilatation-volvulus as complication after ... [J Vet Med A Physiol Pathol Clin Med. 2006] - PubMed result


 
Luckily, he has a gastropexy that they did the night he bloated.
I still watch him like a hawk and get dog sitters if I am gone more than 3 hours.
The girls that work at my vets office dogsit for me.
I know he can still bloat even though his stomach is tacked down.
I keep a lot of gasx on hand and if I have a Dr.
appt or whatever, I give him a gasx in advance.
There are still no guarantees though.
I also had my other 2 dogs gastropexied laprascopically for prevention.
I am Very sorry about your senior!


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## hunterisgreat

My dog had twisted bloat. Surgery to correct. No issues since. Dog was on it's feet and normal one day after surgery


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## hunterisgreat

hunterisgreat said:


> My dog had twisted bloat. Surgery to correct. No issues since. Dog was on it's feet and normal one day after surgery


I'll elaborate now that I'm not on my phone... fed from elevated bowl at the time. Always been on grain-free and raw diet. Dog bloated at approx 5am asleep on my bed. Was at vet by 6:20am. There was minor bruising at the twist, but otherwise healthy. No dead tissue. Did the stomach to rib cage stich thing. Despite my best efforts, I couldn't keep him calm upon leaving the next day, nor could I keep him from jumping into my lifted SUV. Has never had any bloat issues before, or since. Freak thing really. Ironically one of my closest friends great dane died from bloat just 2 months prior. Before that he had a GSD that died of bloat (before I knew him)

My personal opinion... its purely a factor of mechanical dimensions of the chest & waist, with feeding and activity habits as contributing factors. I'll never know why my dog bloated at 5am... 12 hours after the last meal, a solid 8 hours after the last drink or physical activity... that sort of takes the relevance out of the food & exercise habits. There's also no history of it in his lines as far as I can tell. I bet many dogs die of bloat that go undiagnosed though.


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## enzosmama

Okay I NEED HELP! I've introduced a male GSD into my home about 3 weeks ago. He is parasite free, but I cannot for the life of me get him to keep his food down. He excessively drinks water also. Is this common? I am just so worried because I know he isn't getting any nutrients this way. I have made an appointment with the vet for Monday. I just wanted to know if this for sure fell into the bloat category and is in normal for a puppy to have it?? What can I do for him!!?!?


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## fkeeley

Not sure if I understood the question correctly but with bloat it's like they are going to vomit but don't. No one really knows why they bloated when they do. There are several theories out there but no consistency. Best thing to do is to have gas x handy, know the symptoms and have your vet on speed dial. It certainly has something to do with the digestive system but how and why certain dogs .....I hope some day we will know


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## Cassidy's Mom

enzosmama said:


> Okay I NEED HELP! I've introduced a male GSD into my home about 3 weeks ago. He is parasite free, but I cannot for the life of me get him to keep his food down. He excessively drinks water also. Is this common? I am just so worried because I know he isn't getting any nutrients this way. I have made an appointment with the vet for Monday. I just wanted to know if this for sure fell into the bloat category and is in normal for a puppy to have it?? What can I do for him!!?!?


You might want to ask your vet about megaesophagus: Canine Megaesophagus, Aspiration Pneumonia & Myasthenia Gravis


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## Samba

Ice and other things that can get gstric cramping or abnormal contractions going may contribute to bloat. My vet has seen it a dog was hot and ate ice.


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## dogmama

*Gastropexy report*

Thought I'd update on Zack's gastropexy -

He had it done laproscopically one week ago. He is doing great! They kept him overnight. When he came home the next morning, he was still groggy & sore for a couple of days. Now, the challenge is to keep him from jumping, running, ball chasing, etc., for the next week (when sutures are removed.) 

They shaved him from the bottom of his ribcage to his lower groin area. He just started licking a couple of days ago & now sports a handsome blue blow-up donut. The cat keeps stalking him - can't figure out what that "thing" is. I figure when we get done with it, Zack can use it as a life preserver because his swimming is really bad.


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## shilohsmom

My little girl, Shoshona, is two years post Bloat/Surgery and doing well. There is hope if it can be caught in time and we can get them to a skilled Vet facility.


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## whitemochi

can they bloat from any age? 
are puppies just as likely to get bloat?


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## fkeeley

whitemochi said:


> can they bloat from any age?
> are puppies just as likely to get bloat?


I haven't heard a puppy bloating. I feel like it might be somewhat age related but don't quote me on that. I guess I just hear happening to older dogs not young ones. I still take all the necessary precautions as I don't want to have to go through it again. Not taking any chances; of course, there is no guarantee unfortunately. I still think that the best precaution is to know the symptoms and rush the dog to the vet if you think he might be bloating.


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## LisaT

puppies can bloat.


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## dogmama

whitemochi said:


> can they bloat from any age?
> are puppies just as likely to get bloat?


My vet said it's mainly older dogs, males with deep chests who gulp their food. I had a gastropexy done with Zack and it's well worth the money for the peace of mind. He can still bloat but he can't twist. So he still needs to be rushed to a vet if he bloats, but it isn't as life threatening.


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## Lauri & The Gang

*Video of a dog bloating*

Before anyone jumps all over the people taking the video you need to know a couple things.

1. These people had NO experience with bloat. They were video taping their new foster dog and didn't realize what was happening.

2. The dog in the video DOES SURVIVE!!! He gets the treatment needed and recovers.


The reason why this video is important is because it shows us - in REAL LIFE - the sometimes subtle symptoms of bloat. The pacing, the stomach distending, trying to drink and then vomitting - all classics bloat symptoms but not always so obvious.

For those of us that HAVE had a dog bloat - this video is very difficult to watch without yelling at the screen "GET HIM TO THE VET YOU MORONS!!!". Just know that they DID and the dog is fine and now this is an excellent learning tool for others.





 
.


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## MaggieRoseLee

:bump:


----------



## lzver

Barb E said:


> The metal is covered in PTFE (Like Teflon) - Just an FYI
> 
> Polytetrafluoroethylene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Anything coated in PTFE does not enter my house ... So this would never be an option to me.

I have 3 parrots as well and if heated to high temperatures, PTFE emits toxic fumes that can kill birds in minutes. Also not good for humans.


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## lzver

We had our 11 week old GSD at the vet this week and the vet discussed bloat with us. We are going to do the preventative tacking when he's getting neutered at 6 months. She never pressured us, but gave us all the info we needed to make an informed decision. After reading more about bloat, it seems like a low risk procedure. I'm also very glad now we selected a vet that is only 15 minutes away and has a vet on call 24x7.


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## jetscarbie

I spend so much time paying attention to my dogs and bloat.

Just wanted to inform people that cat's can bloat also.

Mine bloated the other day. At first I thought it was roundworms. No, I figured out quick that it was NOT anything like that especially when I pulled back his lips and his gums were solid white. I rushed him to the vet.

They believe he may have cancer or a huge mass in his stomach or a problem with his heart. His x-rays were terrible. His stomach showed a mass of white with most of his organs pushed up along his spine. His heart was very small.

I won't know anything more until later........I just wanted to advise people.....if your cat gets a huge, pot bellied look......please take him to the vet right away.


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## Shaolin

Read this and immediately had a question. Is ice a good substitute for water after heavy exercise? Finn gulps his water after a good play session and I got concerned about the bloat possibility. We switched to ice cubes; three or four at a time until he stops panting heavily. Then he gets a very small amount of water until he is able to drink like normal. Is that a good idea or should he wait to have anything until he has calmed down.


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## ken k

Shaolin said:


> Read this and immediately had a question. Is ice a good substitute for water after heavy exercise? Finn gulps his water after a good play session and I got concerned about the bloat possibility. We switched to ice cubes; three or four at a time until he stops panting heavily. Then he gets a very small amount of water until he is able to drink like normal. Is that a good idea or should he wait to have anything until he has calmed down.



yes they can still bloat from ice cubes, I give mine a small amount of water after exercise, and wait about a half hour to an hour, once the heavy panting slows down, then they can drink more


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## Shaolin

Good to know. Thanks!


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## arycrest

This message is not about bloat with torsion, but about *stomach torsion without bloat*!!!

About a month ago, Slider (who was 10 on 9/11/12) was diagnosed and operated on for stomach torsion. 

I'm *NOT* an expert, but in my limited experience with stomach bloat and torsion (Echo, JR, Kelly and reading about other dogs that have had bloat/torsion) Slider's symptoms were extremely unusual and I wanted to share this information with other GSD owners.

1. Slider was *NOT* bloated when I took him to the vet's office.

2. *SLIDER'S SYMPTOMS*: 
His symptoms were vague. 
He made a couple weird sounding gaggy noises about 2 hours apart. 
He started getting slightly agitated shortly before I decided to call the vet ... he'd get up change position and lie back down, then about 2 or 3 minutes later he'd change position, and again and again.
He had a slight stumbling type gait. 
*HE REFUSED TO EAT A BABY CARROT* (a sure sign any of the Hooligans are sick when they refuse a treat). 
His nose felt warmish. 
He vomited his breakfast while I was getting ready to take him to the vet. 

*THERE WAS NO STOMACH DISTENTION, WHITE FOAM VOMITING AGITATION, OR UNUSUAL SPITTING UP that I usually associate with bloat/torsion. I was shocked when the vet showed me his x-ray which had a strange looking crease in his stomach (about in the middle) ... the vet said it was "pre-torsion". Because it was so late in the day, we were immediately sent up to the University of Florida's vet school as an emergency.

When the vets at the University's ER looked at his x-rays they said it was NOT pre-torsion ... it was definitely TORSION. 

Emergency surgery saved his life!*

Under normal circumstances I would probably have taken a "wait and see" attitude with the vague symptoms Slider was exhibiting. BUT I was 100% certain that Slider was extremely sick, sick enough to require veterinary assistance BECAUSE ALL THE HOOLIGANS ARE PIG-DOGS AND HE REFUSED TO EAT THE BABY CARROT ... that's right, a baby carrot saved my dog's life. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is get to know your dog as much as possible, his habits, his likes, his dislikes, the way he walks, the way he lies down, stands up, etc etc etc ... this information could save his life one day.


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## skier16

good to know. when i have my girl fixed in a month or so i think im going to have the vet pin her stomach to her ribs or whatever they do to prevent torsion.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I was asked to post this here so maybe others can benefit. This is kind of our story of Havoc's bloat last night. He is home tonight and resting.






Thanks all!

Havoc is okay this morning. Reason why the vet opted for surgery was there was a lot of gas in the intestines and he could not see well, he was afraid of possible insusspecsion (don't know if I spelled that right). They decompressed stomach and got most of the stomach contents out and thankfully did not have to open the stomach itself. He did have torsion, 90 degrees. Also did a gastopexy at my request. 

His heart rate was stable through out the surgery, No PVC's which I guess is common. 

Reason why I suspected bloat: He was just uncomfortable and could net get comfortable. He had some minimal distention in his abdomen that I would have said was just gas or drank too much water too fast. He was not doing the back arching or pacing, he was panting too heavily tho. I gave 2 Gas X dissolvable strips.

He looked green around the gills so to speak and started to throw up so I let him outside. He produced a small amount. I called the vet. First signs at 6:55 PM, vet called at 7:01 PM. 2 Gas X in just before calling vet. Vet called back at 7:09PM. By then Havoc had thrown up white froth and seemed much better. Talked to vet who said he may be bloating but sounds like we may have stopped it or it was just gas, Recommended giving him a Pepcid and wait, vet called back 15 minutes later to check and Havoc was resting. The Pepcid appeared to work and Havoc actually rested for while. Then he got back up and started crying. Still no distention, back arching, nothing. Just not comfortable and in obvious distress. Gave more Gas X, Vet called again at 8:40PM and he said 'bring him in, better to err on the side of caution' . Met vet at 9:15, xray revealed mild bloat with no sign of torsion but had some gas in the intestines. Called in tech and by 10:15 Hav was in surgery. At midninght he was awake and recovering. 

The vet was actually surprised by the bloat as Havoc really did not have any definitive signs, i.e. no distension. I think the Gas X helped and I think had we waited longer it would have fully developed and I might not have a dog today. 

As it is he will come home tonight. 



I am very thankful for my vet, Dr. Mark Ferrell, and his wonderful tech, Natalie, who left her family at a car show 20 miles away and hauled her butt in to assist in surgery. She is a treasure. Doc is also very savvy, knows I know my animals and if I say I think he needs to come in, then he needs to come in. He also was not going to rest if had some suspicion. I am glad we all acted on the possibility instead of letting it ride for another hour.
__________________


----------



## lyssa62

geez ...if this thread doesn't make me paranoid I don't know what thread would. I'm scared to death to even feed roxy or let her drink water at all


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## CMorton

I have lost 3 dogs to bloat.
My last one, Mickey, went very quickly and we didn't even make it to the emergency clinic.
I am working on getting the rest of my dogs tacked.
We have a bloat kit at home, we are well versed in the symptoms and CPR.
I don't feed or water until they are at a calm, well rested state.


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## spacenuts

Wow - now I'm completely paranoid about this.

Just to clarify, for those that believe in the 2 hour window.....I'm supposed to wait 2 hours after the dog has exercised to feed him? Or am I supposed to wait 2 hours after he's eaten to exercise him?

What is the definition of "vigorous" exercise? If my dog chases a bird around the yard for 2 minutes, do I have to wait an hour to feed him?

What if he runs around the yard for 15 minutes with a ball? Do I have to wait an hour to feed him?

What if he's running around the yard and is thirsty and takes 10 slurps of water? Will he bloat?


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## kr16

Thanks for the story. I wonder why the vet told you to give pepcid. That does not elevate gas, its for acid reflux and heart burn and may do the reverse effect of what you wanted. GasX has helped my boy when he bloated. That stuff makes you elevate gas. Others make it stop which is what you do not want for bloat. 




Kayos and Havoc said:


> I was asked to post this here so maybe others can benefit. This is kind of our story of Havoc's bloat last night. He is home tonight and resting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks all!
> 
> Havoc is okay this morning. Reason why the vet opted for surgery was there was a lot of gas in the intestines and he could not see well, he was afraid of possible insusspecsion (don't know if I spelled that right). They decompressed stomach and got most of the stomach contents out and thankfully did not have to open the stomach itself. He did have torsion, 90 degrees. Also did a gastopexy at my request.
> 
> His heart rate was stable through out the surgery, No PVC's which I guess is common.
> 
> Reason why I suspected bloat: He was just uncomfortable and could net get comfortable. He had some minimal distention in his abdomen that I would have said was just gas or drank too much water too fast. He was not doing the back arching or pacing, he was panting too heavily tho. I gave 2 Gas X dissolvable strips.
> 
> He looked green around the gills so to speak and started to throw up so I let him outside. He produced a small amount. I called the vet. First signs at 6:55 PM, vet called at 7:01 PM. 2 Gas X in just before calling vet. Vet called back at 7:09PM. By then Havoc had thrown up white froth and seemed much better. Talked to vet who said he may be bloating but sounds like we may have stopped it or it was just gas, Recommended giving him a Pepcid and wait, vet called back 15 minutes later to check and Havoc was resting. The Pepcid appeared to work and Havoc actually rested for while. Then he got back up and started crying. Still no distention, back arching, nothing. Just not comfortable and in obvious distress. Gave more Gas X, Vet called again at 8:40PM and he said 'bring him in, better to err on the side of caution' . Met vet at 9:15, xray revealed mild bloat with no sign of torsion but had some gas in the intestines. Called in tech and by 10:15 Hav was in surgery. At midninght he was awake and recovering.
> 
> The vet was actually surprised by the bloat as Havoc really did not have any definitive signs, i.e. no distension. I think the Gas X helped and I think had we waited longer it would have fully developed and I might not have a dog today.
> 
> As it is he will come home tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> I am very thankful for my vet, Dr. Mark Ferrell, and his wonderful tech, Natalie, who left her family at a car show 20 miles away and hauled her butt in to assist in surgery. She is a treasure. Doc is also very savvy, knows I know my animals and if I say I think he needs to come in, then he needs to come in. He also was not going to rest if had some suspicion. I am glad we all acted on the possibility instead of letting it ride for another hour.
> __________________


----------



## kr16

arycrest said:


> This message is not about bloat with torsion, but about *stomach torsion without bloat*!!!
> 
> About a month ago, Slider (who was 10 on 9/11/12) was diagnosed and operated on for stomach torsion.
> 
> I'm *NOT* an expert, but in my limited experience with stomach bloat and torsion (Echo, JR, Kelly and reading about other dogs that have had bloat/torsion) Slider's symptoms were extremely unusual and I wanted to share this information with other GSD owners.
> 
> 1. Slider was *NOT* bloated when I took him to the vet's office.
> 
> 2. *SLIDER'S SYMPTOMS*:
> His symptoms were vague.
> He made a couple weird sounding gaggy noises about 2 hours apart.
> He started getting slightly agitated shortly before I decided to call the vet ... he'd get up change position and lie back down, then about 2 or 3 minutes later he'd change position, and again and again.
> He had a slight stumbling type gait.
> *HE REFUSED TO EAT A BABY CARROT* (a sure sign any of the Hooligans are sick when they refuse a treat).
> His nose felt warmish.
> He vomited his breakfast while I was getting ready to take him to the vet.
> 
> *THERE WAS NO STOMACH DISTENTION, WHITE FOAM VOMITING AGITATION, OR UNUSUAL SPITTING UP that I usually associate with bloat/torsion. I was shocked when the vet showed me his x-ray which had a strange looking crease in his stomach (about in the middle) ... the vet said it was "pre-torsion". Because it was so late in the day, we were immediately sent up to the University of Florida's vet school as an emergency.
> 
> When the vets at the University's ER looked at his x-rays they said it was NOT pre-torsion ... it was definitely TORSION.
> 
> Emergency surgery saved his life!*
> 
> Under normal circumstances I would probably have taken a "wait and see" attitude with the vague symptoms Slider was exhibiting. BUT I was 100% certain that Slider was extremely sick, sick enough to require veterinary assistance BECAUSE ALL THE HOOLIGANS ARE PIG-DOGS AND HE REFUSED TO EAT THE BABY CARROT ... that's right, a baby carrot saved my dog's life.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is get to know your dog as much as possible, his habits, his likes, his dislikes, the way he walks, the way he lies down, stands up, etc etc etc ... this information could save his life one day.


That's a great animal hospital. I wish we lived closer


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## oldironguts

I lost 2 GSD's in a row to Bloat. Our new vet said avoid big meals. So for the past 5ys our 10 yr old Dieter gets 4 smaller meals per day, and for those 5 yrs. has been trouble free. His dry food is Science Diet "Sensitive Stomach" So far so good.


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## dvdk

I wanna just post my experience (unfortunately bad one). I have lost my 4 months old GSD due to torsion. I have read lot of materials about torisons and everyone says puppy should not be affected, but they ARE WRONG ! And what is worse, i have no idea what happened, because he has 4 meals per day, cooked meal, high quality granulles, and after meal he was quite relaxed. And then suddenly he stopped eating, lay down, go to another place, then anther, and so on... breathing was faster and he didnt want treat, just drinking lot of water. So i knew its bad and whiles we visited surgery, he was "gone". RIP Jarvis, fokin dissease. 

so everyone, DONT wait while something worse will appear, during first symptoms go ASAP to pro! vet. Dont hesistate to do the best for him. I didnt do enough


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## e.rigby

Virgil bloated a year ago. It's still very hard on me. We took the precautions to prevent against it, he ate his meal at night, per usual, and was just resting. Very early in the morning he wasn't himself, by the time he woke me up it was already too late. His stomach was bloated and had already twisted, it was pressing against his heart causing an arrhythmia. His chances of surviving surgery were almost nonexistant. Losing him was a tremendous and painful loss. 

So basically, I'm not sure there's any 'real' way to prevent bloat. I think there are precautions but honestly, I've seen owners take absolutely none and have a dog that would be 'at risk' for it and that dog never bloats. 

I had a friend who's lab bloated just by swimming in the pool. Apparently they ingested too much water...

Having a bloat kit is probably the best way to go on top of being cautious. I have one now.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

dvdk said:


> I wanna just post my experience (unfortunately bad one). I have lost my 4 months old GSD due to torsion. I have read lot of materials about torisons and everyone says puppy should not be affected, but they ARE WRONG ! And what is worse, i have no idea what happened, because he has 4 meals per day, cooked meal, high quality granulles, and after meal he was quite relaxed. And then suddenly he stopped eating, lay down, go to another place, then anther, and so on... breathing was faster and he didnt want treat, just drinking lot of water. So i knew its bad and whiles we visited surgery, he was "gone". RIP Jarvis, fokin dissease.
> 
> so everyone, DONT wait while something worse will appear, during first symptoms go ASAP to pro! vet. Dont hesistate to do the best for him. I didnt do enough


Don't do that to yourself. I have lost 2 to gastric torsion--bloat--even though for many years I have been doing all the things that we are told to do to prevent it. You can't blame yourself, it's self-destructive. The last one I lost, last November--at the vet's, my Rosco lying on the operating table, sections of tissue in his stomach almost black for lack of circulation, I was distraught and asked (I thought to myself), "why do I always have to make these decisions???") My vet came and put her arms around me and said, "Because you love German shepherds..." Like that was comforting, right? I know her very well, I know she had in mind all the deep-chested breeds, she has lost Labs to some of the same things we have to deal with. But the reality is, we _can't_ blame ourselves when we know we have done all we could. We give them the very best lives we can give them, much better than probably 70% of all dogs in this world, and we have to keep in mind that our time with them is always too short. A painful reality, but there it is. 

A friend of mine, also a dog lover, put forth a theory, something to think about. She had lost her beloved Rottie, and to this day she keeps his leather collar in a plastic bag because it still smells like him. She feels that we get so close to our dogs, who give us such non-judgmental loyalty and their version of love, whatever you want to call it, because these qualities are so often lacking in human relationships in this world. 

Just throwing that out there, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I just know that our dogs' lives are way too short.

Susan


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## brightspot

I absolutely believe what arycrest says.


> I guess what I'm trying to say is get to know your dog as much as possible, his habits, his likes, his dislikes, the way he walks, the way he lies down, stands up, etc etc etc ... this information could save his life one day.


This saved my 2 year old Golden's life back in the day. He went outside, laid down on the deck and didn't want to come back in. We went immediately to the ER. He had a torsion caused by eating most of a Christmas can of popcorn.


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## marthak87

My gsd just went through the same thing! Had a lot of gas inboard her stomach, her stomach didn't turn or twist but probably was close! Ever since we have had issues: threw up her food three times this week. Took her to the vet he did another X-Ray showed gas but everything else looked normal... Thank god... But put her on special food to help with digestion.... I'm worried this will keep happening... Any suggestions?


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## kr16

marthak87 said:


> My gsd just went through the same thing! Had a lot of gas inboard her stomach, her stomach didn't turn or twist but probably was close! Ever since we have had issues: threw up her food three times this week. Took her to the vet he did another X-Ray showed gas but everything else looked normal... Thank god... But put her on special food to help with digestion.... I'm worried this will keep happening... Any suggestions?


First thing get GasX and keep it on hand. Get the tabs that dissolve on the tongue.

Tell us what your feeding now or and what you were feeding. Food and amounts


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## marthak87

So she was eating 4Health, from tractor supply: grain free (1.5-2 cups) and 1/3 of a can of there wet food, twice a day. We originally started her on taste of the wild and had no problems. I think after she is off the special vet diet (EN Something or other) I will put her back on the taste of wild. I have gas x tabs on the house now, so If I see her having a bigger belly I will give her 2 tabs 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## kr16

marthak87 said:


> So she was eating 4Health, from tractor supply: grain free (1.5-2 cups) and 1/3 of a can of there wet food, twice a day. We originally started her on taste of the wild and had no problems. I think after she is off the special vet diet (EN Something or other) I will put her back on the taste of wild. I have gas x tabs on the house now, so If I see her having a bigger belly I will give her 2 tabs
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Nothing out of the ordinary. I think those foods are the same, both made by Diamond. Check out the ingredients and see. 
Not sure those vet foods are worth even bothering with. I never trust vets and food.

Good luck keep an careful eye on her. My boy has had that a few times as well.


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## Teecap71

We just lost our 3.5 year old boy Baron to mesenteric torsion last week. He was fine Friday then Saturday morning he wasn't himself, kept laying in spots he never laid in then was having trouble getting up so we knew something was wrong. 

I had gotten him to the vet and after then got him open his intestines had already started to die off and parts of his stomach and colon. He was given little shot to make it even through surgery so we couldn't let him suffer. 

He was a thin narrow boy that was very long and had a very deep chest. He also battled IBS and just had a tough time with being skinny and gaining weight. 

I agree with a lot of what was said to be aware of your dogs habits and not to waste time when you know something isn't right. The suddenness of it all is unreal and if you happen to be unsuccessful it's one of the hardest things to go through.


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## arycrest

Teecap71 said:


> We just lost our 3.5 year old boy Baron to mesenteric torsion last week. He was fine Friday then Saturday morning he wasn't himself, kept laying in spots he never laid in then was having trouble getting up so we knew something was wrong.
> 
> I had gotten him to the vet and after then got him open his intestines had already started to die off and parts of his stomach and colon. He was given little shot to make it even through surgery so we couldn't let him suffer.
> 
> He was a thin narrow boy that was very long and had a very deep chest. He also battled IBS and just had a tough time with being skinny and gaining weight.
> 
> I agree with a lot of what was said to be aware of your dogs habits and not to waste time when you know something isn't right. The suddenness of it all is unreal and if you happen to be unsuccessful it's one of the hardest things to go through.


I am so sorry to hear about your Baron, mesenteric torsion is so deadly. I'm not sure if this is still true today, but about 14 or 15 years ago my JR survived mesenteric torsion and the vet told me that the fatality rate was about 97% ... I'm not sure if it's still that high today or if they have better diagnostic techniques than they had back then. JR was lucky, my vet couldn't figure out what was wrong so she wanted to do exploratory surgery ... that saved his life.


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## Teecap71

I'm glad to hear he had survived through that. Someone was watching over him that day. Our surgeon didn't tell us statistics, but from the limited amount I've seen online all I see is near 100% even with surgery. 

Baron would've needed more then the allowable amount of intestines removed then they would've liked to remove to even had a shot. He was in bad shape when they got to him, including needing removal of parts of his colon and stomach. He would've had dying/dead tissue still which they explained could rupture anytime. 

I feel so guilty that we didn't save him. He was only 73lbs at this time and he was very skinny. He has IBS and was so active he never put on weight after being sick as a puppy. We had him tested regularly for all kinds of issues but they never found any underlying cause of not gaining weight. So to have lost more of his digestive tract the surgeon said he would've lost more weight.


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## arycrest

Teecap71 said:


> I'm glad to hear he had survived through that. Someone was watching over him that day. Our surgeon didn't tell us statistics, but from the limited amount I've seen online all I see is near 100% even with surgery.
> 
> Baron would've needed more then the allowable amount of intestines removed then they would've liked to remove to even had a shot. He was in bad shape when they got to him, including needing removal of parts of his colon and stomach. He would've had dying/dead tissue still which they explained could rupture anytime.
> 
> I feel so guilty that we didn't save him. He was only 73lbs at this time and he was very skinny. He has IBS and was so active he never put on weight after being sick as a puppy. We had him tested regularly for all kinds of issues but they never found any underlying cause of not gaining weight. So to have lost more of his digestive tract the surgeon said he would've lost more weight.


PLEASE ... PLEASE ... PLEASE ... DON'T FEEL GUILTY!!! I had a friend tell me once that when you put a dog down, you take his pain and make it your own ... you did what you and your vet felt was right for Baron, it's a tough call to make, and you'll always have second doubts but in your mind you'll always know you did the right thing for your boy!!!


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## mercman

first off, i'm a one handed typer due to a recent wrist surgery. my gsd, Kaspar, had surgery for a twisted stomach due to bloat just a few months ago. he was saved with no permanent damage and his stomach was tacked to his abdominal wall to prevent re-occurance.

I had just started my tractor to knock down some blackberry thickets and I noticed Kaspar was lying nose down over by a woodpile. I went over and he was laying in a puddle of bile that he had thrown up. I managed to get him up and over to the water bowl. He did have a drink but was gasping and gulping. Not a good sign. I took him to the vet right away and she recognized the symptons of bloat and confirmed the condition with an xray. I took him straight to a vet ER and he was in surgery within a half an hour. He is 100% now and doing fine. He was a very lucky boy and we're glad he is still here with us. Very sorry to those who have lost their K9 family members to this illness.


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## gusmen69

I have heard several different opinions regarding elevated food bowls. A professional dog trainer recommended it to reduced the risk of bloating. Other people said that elevating the food actually increase the risk of bloating. Any comments or personal experiences to share? Thanks


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## Graychamp

*Bloat or something else?*

Hello,
This last weekend my fiance and I were left very confused by our 5 month GSD Emma. 

I'll explain:

Saturday we took Emma to go play fetch. We probably spent a good 30 minutes of playing and Emma always goes all out. Once she finally was getting tired we headed back inside. Knowing about GVD due to my sister's rott dying from it I knew some of the things not to do. I just blanked but when we got back we fed her. She ate all her food. She then pretty quickly after she proceeded to throw every last bit of it up. So we waited a bit and fed her a little more -same thing. Lost all of it. At this point I started to get concerned because she was also retching. A lot. I actually thought she got something stuck in her throat due to losing her dinner. She also at one point drank a whole lot of water. This all lasted from probably 6-11. Around 7 is the time I started suspecting bloat and I did not know it was as serious as it was until researching. 

This is where it was strange. She was retching, but also vomiting. She vomited 4 times. One of those times it looked a bit like the 'mucous' type vomit said to come with bloat..but there wasn't much so it was difficult to tell. From what I've heard..they can't vomit with GVD. She also went potty just fine. Her stomach was not tight but she did seem uncomfortable if I pressed on it. She seemed herself but there was 'something' a bit off. She did seem uncomfortable but she never hunched over of walked stiff. She wanted up on the couch by us so we let her come up and she laid down and fell asleep for awhile. When she'd wake up..more retching but fewer and farther in between. She was drooling a bit more than normal. Her heart rate and breathing are usually fast seeing as she's a puppy so I wasn't able to tell if that was abnormal. As time progressed the retching became less frequent and about and hour or so before bedtime I fed her a package sized cup of yogurt. No more retching or throwing up and acted tired but normal the rest of the night. 

Next morning she was her normal self. She was more tired than normal but that's understandable because she had a pretty rough day previously. She played and jumped up on us and did all her normal routine things. Same thing with this morning acted normal. I didn't end up contacting the vet. I understand how serious bloat is but I was also afraid that if she didn't have bloat but showed all these signs that we would end up paying an arm and a leg...which we really can't afford. Pet insurance is a definite at this point. One unknown variable thrown into this whole ordeal is that when playing fetch she stopped and seemed to eat something off the ground and wouldn't stop putting her nose in the 'spot'. I went over there and the grass was a lighter color green as in something had been there but she apparently ate it. Could have been a mushroom, could have been a dead bird -idk. That also was a thought of what might have caused the issue.

That being said, what do you guys think? Was it bloat; and if so I didn't think dogs could live through this without medical attention? If it was bloat, does this mean she has an increased chance of getting it again despite the fact she had zero treatment/complications? To say the least, I've definitely learned from my mistakes on this one..the scary way.

Thanks


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## kr16

Bloat doesn't kill, its what comes next may kill because of the bloating, torsion, GDV. Buy some GasX that can be real helpful when bloat happens. My dog used to bloat up and GasX was amazing. When he bloated his stomach got huge and was sticking out, very obvious. I guess the non obvious can be worse,

Prevention of Gastric Dilatation Volvulus or Bloat in Dogs


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## bruiser

Acute Bloat-Help
My Gsd had acute bloat last night. I figured it out rather quickly so I got him to the vet. They thought his stomach twisted bit after they inserted the tube it started to deflate slightly so they took another x-ray and confirmed it was acute bloat. Gave IV fluids and we took him home for 4 hrs. (Since he would have been left there alone). Took him back this morning when they opened for tube insertion and more fluids. They said all the gas was gone but we're still waiting for him pass the food that was still there.

I was thinking of taking him to CSU for a gastroplastie (I'm sure that spelled wrong.) 

Your thoughts on this or advice would be appreciated.

I have pet plan insurance, does anyone know if this is covered or is it considered elective.


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## kr16

bruiser said:


> Acute Bloat-Help
> My Gsd had acute bloat last night. I figured it out rather quickly so I got him to the vet. They thought his stomach twisted bit after they inserted the tube it started to deflate slightly so they took another x-ray and confirmed it was acute bloat. Gave IV fluids and we took him home for 4 hrs. (Since he would have been left there alone). Took him back this morning when they opened for tube insertion and more fluids. They said all the gas was gone but we're still waiting for him pass the food that was still there.
> 
> I was thinking of taking him to CSU for a gastroplastie (I'm sure that spelled wrong.)
> 
> Your thoughts on this or advice would be appreciated.
> 
> I have pet plan insurance, does anyone know if this is covered or is it considered elective.


Doubtful on anything elective. What company do you have? To pull that off your vet would have to be on the same page and have it written up as a necessary operation.


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## bruiser

kr16 said:


> Doubtful on anything elective. What company do you have? To pull that off your vet would have to be on the same page and have it written up as a necessary operation.


I had my vet call CSU, so hopefully that should do it. I have Pet Plan (Gopet). I have a hard time believing someone would just choose to do this to the pet.


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## kr16

bruiser said:


> I had my vet call CSU, so hopefully that should do it. I have Pet Plan (Gopet). I have a hard time believing someone would just choose to do this to the pet.



Lots of people just do that. For females they do it when they spay and the dog is out already.


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## kanar125

Which suplements can i give to 1 one year old puppy ?


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## Ruger Monster

lyssa62 said:


> geez ...if this thread doesn't make me paranoid I don't know what thread would. I'm scared to death to even feed roxy or let her drink water at all


Same here - I've been making my coworker nuts with my out loud worrying about _everything_ 

My first GSD when I was a kid never had problems, but I also remember now that my dad would mix her dry kibble with both some wet food, and a can-ful of water. (I loved when I got to "prepare" her food, like a pup chef). 

I don't use elevated bowls for Ruger, though I had some we had used for our BT before we moved. I was going to use them with him, but he was too short to reach them at the time, and managed to chew the plastic leg off it - maybe he was telling me something! I had thought they were the better option until reading more on here. 

I've been trying to keep him calm after eating, and not going on our walk to the mailbox at the front of the neighborhood until about an hour after he eats his PM meal. No playing with the other animals or us until after that. In the AM he does get a little rowdy while we get his meal ready - when we get up, wants to say good morning to us & our other 2 dogs, lick my face, follow us everywhere, jump on the BT and try and get her to play ... he's 3 months old, and definitely full of puppy energy. 

I'm debating on free feeding him after reading some doing that in here - he pretty much eats until he's full, then goes back and visits his bowl whenever he wants more now if there's some left. When he was on a bland diet of chicken & rice, he'd devour 2 cups in no time. The only downside of free feeding is that he's not fully house-trained yet, so food left out means more poop on the kitchen floor in his pen (and he has no problem pooping on himself in a crate!).

Trying to tell myself I can't worry sick over it - just need to do what I can, watch for the signs, and hope I never have to experience it. I'm thinking about the stomach tacking when he gets fixed, and have looked up some locations here that offer it so I can talk more in depth when we're ready.


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## Zeusthegsd143

Vice my friends Panda Shepherd passed away due to bloat. It is tragic.


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## Bella67

Ruger Monster said:


> *I'm debating on free feeding him* after reading some doing that in here - he pretty much eats until he's full, then goes back and visits his bowl whenever he wants more now if there's some left. When he was on a bland diet of chicken & rice, he'd devour 2 cups in no time. The only downside of free feeding is that he's not fully house-trained yet, so food left out means more poop on the kitchen floor in his pen (and he has no problem pooping on himself in a crate!).


I would never free-feed any of my dogs. After from free feeding my dogs in the past (couple years ago) they all got overweight, they just ate whenever they pleased which means they go to the bathroom at crazy time frames. So, now I just portion Chloe's meals twice a day.


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## bruiser

*Bloat*

My GSD had bloat and I got a gastroplasty done at CSU vet hospital. They were wonderful and he recovered fine.

PetPlan probably would have paid for it had I got a pre-authorization but I was so freaked out I forgot about that. Anyways, I think it was a great idea and would probably do it again just for prevention since it only takes once to loose your friend. 

I just feel so much better knowing with a feeding schedule and other prevention measures he should be just fine.

I would definitely reinforce getting a gastroplasty if you can afford it as prevention totally opposite of what I thought before all this happened.:blush:


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## Mister C

I found this video very informative but be careful before you click on it. 

*WARNING*: It shows an Akita experiencing bloat while a narrator points out the signs of bloat in the dog. Apparently the person filming didn't know what was happening. When they realized that the dog was in trouble they took him to the emergency vet. He survived. Later, the narration was added and the video released as a PSA.

Let me be clear, I hate watching animals suffer. But seeing what bloat looks like first hand was important enough to me that I did watch it. The dog survives which also makes it watchable for me. You may disagree and I respect that fully.

Anyone who has has already suffered from a bloat experience probably should not watch it.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U1WrT2719yo


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

That video was eye opening. Now I feel confident I know what to look for. I also have started feeding captain water in his kibble.


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## Ruger Monster

Bella67 said:


> I would never free-feed any of my dogs. After from free feeding my dogs in the past (couple years ago) they all got overweight, they just ate whenever they pleased which means they go to the bathroom at crazy time frames. So, now I just portion Chloe's meals twice a day.


Going to the bathroom at crazy times did cross my mind too - its already been pretty hard trying to house train him because he'll go to the bathroom when we're not home and/or random times when we're sleeping. I think I'll stick with 2x/day meal times. 

The other 2 dogs have designated mealtimes also, may as well keep them all on the same schedule!


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## NinjaKingShep

I have a purebred king shepherd, Im not sure but I think he is almost constantly in phase 1 bloat, it comes and goes rite? Because he will exhibit symptoms for about an hour maybe less then he is fine I think. Mostly it happens after I take him out to jog n run, he does drink alot when we come home but isnt he thirsty? I dont want my baby to be in pain but I dont want him dehydrated after playing either...this has happened alot, he pants whines and is restless during this time after playing and drinking. Is this serious?


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## Elmos

Six days ago at night, Dingo, 10 months old GSD bloated. Had no car at the moment to take him to the vet. Didn't succeed with the tube. Pierced his stomach with a needle and immediately he looked more comfortable. Gained time till the taxi came to take him to a clinic.

Proved there was no torsion.

We ve scheduled surgerry to tack his stomach.

This whole thing is really ****in scary!


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## Swarnendu

I feed my 14 Week GSD puppy 4 times a day. I let her chose the quantity i.e. if she finishes her meal in 10 minutes, then the next feed quantity is slightly increased, and vice versa.

Would this process also be considered as "Free Feeding" ?


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## bruiser

Swarnendu said:


> I feed my 14 Week GSD puppy 4 times a day. I let her chose the quantity i.e. if she finishes her meal in 10 minutes, then the next feed quantity is slightly increased, and vice versa.
> 
> Would this process also be considered as "Free Feeding" ?


Be careful not to over feed...you don't want your shepherd to grow to fast. It is not good for there joints.


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## drdexter33

\My boy bloated on Mother's Day 2018 and I rushed him to the vet immediately and he underwent surgery (including a gastropexy) where I was told he was expected to make a full recovery, however after 2 weeks he is DEFINITELY NOT HIMSELF and I'm very worried.

He doesn't seem too interested in food and has lost 8 pounds.

Any advice on recovery from this would be appreciated since my searches on GDV post-op recovery returns nothing.

Thanks.

God Bless.


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## debr1776

My smooth collie bloated (at age 11) and the recovery was agonizingly slow. Her recovery was complicated by her digestive system pretty much shutting down post surgery, and it took months to recover. I wouldn't panic by any means, because major abdominal surgery almost always has a long recovery time, but I would try to get him checked out by the vet as soon as possible after the holiday weekend. If he is showing other signs of distress beyond the lack of appetite, though, I would try to get him in to see the emergency vet if your vet doesn't have someone on call for the long weekend. Best wishes for a quick turnaround on his recovery!


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## drdexter33

Thanks so much..

This has been VERY STRESSFUL since he's the only real family I have that's not 600 miles away..

Thanks again.


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## mark125

I lost my shepard to bloat last month.The dog just turned 10 two days before.I have done much reading since with few real sure answers.The dog never ate much or fast and that day he had some food in the morning but none during the day.The evening came 5:00 then heate some grass and started throwing up all night until next morning to the vet he went.I saw the stomach swelled up and vet took exrays .The surgery was 3000-4000+ was the estimate with little known outcome so for the age and cost and outcome factors we did what was best.The other shepard was lost couple years early at age 12 no bloat problems but he ate fast and alot odd he had no bloat problems but had other health issures.I cant rap my head around the hole deal why the one did


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## Shane'sDad

mark125 said:


> I lost my shepard to bloat last month.The dog just turned 10 two days before.I have done much reading since with few real sure answers.The dog never ate much or fast and that day he had some food in the morning but none during the day.The evening came 5:00 then heate some grass and started throwing up all night until next morning to the vet he went.I saw the stomach swelled up and vet took exrays .The surgery was 3000-4000+ was the estimate with little known outcome so for the age and cost and outcome factors we did what was best.The other shepard was lost couple years early at age 12 no bloat problems but he ate fast and alot odd he had no bloat problems but had other health issures.I cant rap my head around the hole deal why the one did


IMO the best thing any owner can do is to learn the signs that the dog shows AFTER the stomach has twisted..the owner reacting quickly and getting to the vet is the most important thing....we've had 2 dogs with "bloat" one didn't make it through surgery and one did....both of these dogs were very slow-picky eaters...one of them always ate from a "raised" food bowl and yet their stomachs still twisted....there is a "elective surgery" that some vets offer where the stomach is attached to the walls inside the body so that it can't twist--usually done in conjunction with another surgery while the dog is under anesthesia any way......


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## Magwart

For those who haven't seen this thread in the archives discussing the correlative risk factors for bloat from the largest research studies to date, I recommend taking a look at it: 
Bowl height and bloat

It may dispel some persistent Internet rumors about "cause" -- the things you've probably heard or read about why dogs bloat.


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## LuvShepherds

My dog had surgery for bloat in 2018. He had done nothing different or unusual except eaten some leaves in the yard when I wasn’t paying attention, but they did not think that was the cause. Instead, he may have eaten foliage to try to relieve discomfort. The only risk factor was an ancestor who was known to throw progeny who bloated, Vito. That was suspected in other cases but never proven.


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## oldironguts

debbiebrown said:


> *Re: Help needed with bloat*
> 
> you also might want to consider a home made diet.
> more digestable.
> debbie


Lost 2 GSD's in a row to Bloat. Easy fix......Multiple small meals versus 1 or 2 large feedings.Or never leave a large full dish allowing you GSD to over eat.... Vet advice since no problems. Don't bother with surgery bloat is death.


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## GSD246

Bridget had bloat as a puppy. I gave her one of those bones from the pet store. She didn't eat her dinner and then I noticed that her shape had changed. I knew from reading about common problems that this was bloat. I can't remember rather it was an ultra sound or a x ray that helped us. We were able to see the bone and the kibble inside of her. I couldn't afford to keep her at the vet so I opted for home care against their recommendation. They gave me some drugs and this specialty liquid. The issue was she had to get water and this stuff on the hour every hour for 48 hrs. Took off work the next 3 days. I used an alarm to get me up in time and we somehow managed it. The next picture showed that it had moved pass the trouble spot so we were in the clear. On the 4th day she managed a giant poop. I think I got her to the vet just in time.


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## LuvShepherds

GSD246 said:


> Bridget had bloat as a puppy. I gave her one of those bones from the pet store. She didn't eat her dinner and then I noticed that her shape had changed. I knew from reading about common problems that this was bloat. I can't remember rather it was an ultra sound or a x ray that helped us. We were able to see the bone and the kibble inside of her. I couldn't afford to keep her at the vet so I opted for home care against their recommendation. They gave me some drugs and this specialty liquid. The issue was she had to get water and this stuff on the hour every hour for 48 hrs. Took off work the next 3 days. I used an alarm to get me up in time and we somehow managed it. The next picture showed that it had moved pass the trouble spot so we were in the clear. On the 4th day she managed a giant poop. I think I got her to the vet just in time.


It was not bloat, it was indigestion. Real bloat will not go away without intervention.


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## Lexie’s mom

Real bloat requires a surgery.. ASAP. 
2 Great Danes later.. both bloated at about 8 y.o 1 survived and lived till almost 11y.o


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## GSD246

They told me it was bloat. But this makes sense that it wasn't bloat. I got a genetic test on her and it said she never had it. They came to the last GSD trial I went to for volunteers for a bloat study. Supposedly they found a genetic test to see if your dog might get bloat.


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## theresagsd

I make my shepherd rest/lay down 1 hour before feeding him and 1 hour after he eats. I feed a raw diet as well, and have been told feeding raw reduces chances of bloat by 25%. Kibble stays in the stomach too long which is sometimes the cause of bloat.


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## Kimberly Baumgart

My dog had a Gastropexy. We are feeding him hydrolyzed protein and Boiled chicken 3 times a day. My vet said that torsion if happened once, comes back if gastropexy is not performed. I hope everything stays well with your pooch


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