# Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelievable



## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

I typed up a big long message about this and then deleted it as I wanted to try to keep this to the point to include the pictures and such. But this might end up long anyway.

A Pet store in my area sells puppies. I do not make it a habit to go there. It has been around for years, mainly selling small/toy breeds from what I know. I love all dogs, so it is inexcusable that they do this at all, but I saw something I never thought I would see the other day.







And this is a GSD board so I thought I would mention this

This puppy, of course I noticied, they never have large breeds from my knowledge and I have never even seen a sable dog in our area except for my own ( and with the exception of when we go to training and a few rescues with MOGS). This gorgeous pup, with his tree trunk legs, I was just so shocked and had to play dumb to learn what the heck was going on there. He is in a cage with his brother, also a sable, at the Pet Store. I took these pics after we took this one pup out of his cage.





































Upon further questioning to the salespeople/ people that worked there we found out that these two pups were brought in by a man in the area that had recently obtained a female that was already pregnant.

They had a picture, a straight printoff from pedigree database of the mother of the pups...here it is...exactly the same printout they were offering to show potential buyers... 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/524685.html

Here is the dad, according to them, again they had an exact printoff of this link

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/462236.html

They told me she had her litter of puppies and he brought these two males to sell, and kept the rest of the litter to sell or whatever he is planning on doing with them.

This male pup has a recently fixed umbilical hernia, I think the other one did as well, not sure if this is why he sold them to a pet store










I am not trying to say that any of the other dogs that are sold at a Pet Store are any less important, but I was so stunned to see what looked to me to be working line dogs sold in this Pet Store. Not sure what to do about it, and I am actively involved in GSD rescue here, and would hate to see these pups in another year coming through the rescue as the Pet Store so obviously knows nothing about them (they even have a picture of a sable "grown up" to show potential buyers what he may look like for those that had never seen a sable in their life..not just those that were curious..you know what I am saying? that is how I felt about it) and you could tell they probably didn't know in the first place

something I have never seen before, sad, I want to find the person in town that thinks it is ok to do this. And where are the rest of the pups?











I am the last person here that would ever want to "start something", was hesitant to post this but decided to, and I know there are puppy mill GSD suffering everyday. But I have not seen any in the pet stores around here and work with rescue to help the GSD's in this area and just felt I needed to post this, to see if anyone else has seen anything like this and I recognized the lines and some kennel names from here on this board, NOT to say that they have anything to do with this AT ALL, but they might want to know? This is not a bash on any particular person or breeder, except for maybe the Pet Store, or the guy that put these pups here. If any of this is against board rules, I apologize and please delete....just have not seen something like this before.

Not sure who will all read this, hope it was not a mistake to post, but it has been bugging me from the other night


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## ituneyou (Dec 20, 2008)

Wow thats really somenthing, out of curiosity, how much were they selling the pups for?

Steve


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

I put the price that they were selling them for but then realized that might be a bad idea

they are priceless


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Somebody who's better at pedigrees than me should take a look at those. I hope I'm not seeing what I think I am.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

What do you mean?


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## ituneyou (Dec 20, 2008)

Oh i was just wandering what they were asking for the pups, not that i would ever buy a puppy from a pet shop, all my dogs were either rescued or adopted from previous owners, i dont believe in keeping puppy mills in business.
Steph I dont think you did anything wrong by posting the post, actually i think that its great info on whats going on out there.

Steve


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

thanks Steve, did not at all think that is what you were saying, but just to be sure I did not want to say it outright here.

also, I hope it was ok to post, thanks, I am nervous about it, but it was upsetting and I can't get the squishy pup with the tree trunk legs out of my mind!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Definitely working lines and I recognize similar lines to Patti's Grimm. Chuck, who is on this board, has a bunch of dogs from these lines too. 

I hate pet stores that sell dogs and cats but the blame here clearly lies with the breeder who has done a terrible disservice to these dogs. If someone buys them as a pet (and why else would you buy a dog from a pet store) they will be very surprised, I am sure.

What can you do? I would try to get that pet store to stop selling dogs in the future. In the short term I would sit down with them and explain what kind of dogs they've got and what kind of home they're suitable for.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

The litter is posted on the link below. 

I'm wrecking my brain and can't think why Mystical Shepherds is ringing a bell. Why why why would he sell them to a pet store?
http://www.mysticalshepherds04.com/contact.htm



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowDefinitely working lines and I recognize similar lines to Patti's Grimm.


The dam is a half sister to Grimm - if the paperwork is true. Why why why.


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## ituneyou (Dec 20, 2008)

You're quite welcome Steph, what i'm trying to figure out why on earth did those beautiful pups end up at a petshop.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

The whole litter is not at the pet shop, just the 2 males. The rest (not sure how many) are with the man that owns the female here in town. The only thing I could think of for why the males are at the Pet Shop is that they have recently fixed umbilical hernias

yes, I recognized the dogs as workinglines and the pedigrees right off, which was the shocking part


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

The owner of the female - who indeed was bred to that male - appears to be in NC. How did the pups end up in Kansas?









They are absolutely ADORABLE! I can see what you're haunted by them.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

I do not know. I have tried to look it up.

According to them, the female is here, and was pregnant when the new owner got her

yes, they are haunting me, they are less than 0.5 miles from my home


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Here you go: http://www.mysticalshepherds04.com/calia.htm

But her litter isn't listed as available so I guess they bought her and then sold her right away.







Very, very strange.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Exactly. She's not listed on their current females page either but the blurb about the puppies' due date is obviously recent and they're talking about being proud to add her to their breeding program. Weird.


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## ituneyou (Dec 20, 2008)

You think maybe there was a health problem with the dog and decided to sell her and get rid of her or maybe they fell into some financial problems and had to sell her?

Steve


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowHere you go: http://www.mysticalshepherds04.com/calia.htm
> 
> But her litter isn't listed as available so I guess they bought her and then sold her right away.
> 
> ...


wow, thanks for finding that. I searched and searched the other night, looks like this matches up, as the female (Calia) would have had these pups around when the supposed person here obtained her in the time frame to sell them to the pet store.

I have checked the local ads here, cannot find anything related as of now

The pups (the 2 males) are stunning in person. Lovely


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This sort of thing probably happens all of the time (sales of pregnant females) but the important thing here is to at least get the pet store to acknowledge that these aren't "pet quality" dogs and that selling them as such is unethical at best and dangerous (for the dog's well being!) at worst.


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

did anyone contact them and let them know about this, you know they thought they sold to someone ligit and turns out they didn't, they may want to know


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

I did not contact anyone. That may be a mistake on my part, and I am sorry for that. I did try to look for whoever this was selling these pups in the area..the pet shop was not forthcoming with a name or anything. I guess I could press them for that. I just saw these pups the other night

Just want to reiterate that I did not post this to start anything with anyone, and hoped that maybe in posting it someone may know someone to contact, as I did not. And even if there was not anyone to contact, at least bring a problem in our area to light, or see if it is happeninig elsewhere as I felt this was some what unique, seeing working pups at a pet store. Maybe I am wrong

I am willing to help in anyway, and one of the things that I said above is that someone may want to know, fortunatley this board is a good place to be for help with things and everyone is great about respecting others, I think

I am truely sorry if I have made a mistake in that respect


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

The worst thing about this to me. 
Is the guy or girl (the one responseable) KNOWS what kind of dogs these are. 

The one that bought the pregnant GSD. He knows what he was doing taking these puppies to the pet store. That they are not just pets. He KNOWS. That was very wrong of him. I wish there was a way to find him and stop him from what he is doing and make him correct this wrong doing and find these pups a proper home. 

Steph you are not wrong in ANY way. Have faith, someone here will have the knowledge to help you, help those pups. 

This is a sign of the bad economic times. People with dogs are giving them up, they are not buying from breeders. Bad breeders (breeders that breed just for the $$) are going to start making bad decisions, like this one. IT is crap! 

These beautiful Sable GSD dogs (all dogs for that matter), should not be sold in cages in pet stores. It breaks my heart.


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## Blacryan (Feb 11, 2009)

Just gonna toss this 1 out there. My pup I am reciving tomorrow, his sire is that same pups. I got mine from http://www.mysticalshepherds04.com

This is... interesting information to hear. very weird.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thank you for posting this! The dam IS half-sister to Grimm. 

Here comes my OPINION: These lines should NEVER be sold to the average mall-shoppin', gum-chewin', pet-store-peeking, <span style="color: #FF6600">"was-thinking-of-getting-a-Golden-but.."</span> clueless couch spud John Q. Suburban who has zero experience, no experienced CLUB support, has no idea what workinglines might mean, and <span style="color: #3333FF">wants a nice EASY pet to surf the sofa after work and eat CheezCurlz with!! </span>

Yes, these lines make wonderful, loving companions-- _for very involved, totally committed, active, experienced handlers who have the mindset that training is a daily commitment, that guarding against triggering reactivity, that working with, rather than fearing drives is the goal, and for those who have the desire to work with a dog._ Grimm has his hippo-like, velvetty muzzle crushing my foot as I type. So yes, they make great snuggly buddies-- but only with the attention they need to training, their drives, intelligence, craving to work for their handlers, excersise needs, etc. Let's not forget dominance, either. Grimm's breeder said it best:_ "These are strong dogs."_

I fear frustrated teenaged pups at the gangly stage, in inexperienced hands being dumped later at shelters when the young dogs are frustrated, bored, under-excersised, un-trained, and allowed on the bed, giving treats from dinnerplates during dinner, and not EXTENSIVELY socialized, trained, and worked with the way dogs of this type must to be.

*Oh God, when worked with right, dogs like this are a JOY to live with-- they all but DANCE to work with you and for you!!*
















Let's hope the owner of Mystical Shepherds can give us an understanding of why Calia's pups have been dumped at a pet store in a mall, instead of him keeping them and *very, very carefully screening potential clients himself*.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Too late to edit.. I am not sure if Mystical Haus sold her, or is the in fact one who bought her and dropped the pups at the pet store. In either case, this situation is terribly, terribly RISKY for these puppies' futures.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I just saw an ad on craigslist with a dk sable 8 mo old they were rehoming due to his "aggressive growling while eating" at their little boy. Won't waste the space to comment on that issue!







They thought the pup was mixed w/ husky as they had never seen a sable before. 
I e-mailed them about this dog suggested to give him back to the breeder or to a GSD rescue instead of letting him go to another potential problem home. The "breeder" told them he put the sire down due to aggresssion and the female went to the humane society. She was very sad how it all went, and wished they'd researched more before paying $200 for this puppy. These above pups will probably end up in the same situation. Steph, is there any way you could educate the shop employees on this line to avoid a sad future for the pups?


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

I got my baby from Pet Store. You can't learn anything about background of the pup. And Kenzo ended up with Rage Syndrome when he was 16 months old. As a person who is still suffering, DON'T BUY ANY GSD FROM PET STORE..FIND A REPUTABLE BREEDER. I don't say all the gsd pups in pet stores are bad, but you have a high risk of getting a pup with temperament issues. Just my experience.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

I know this situation is totally different from mine. It is really sad.


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## southerncharm (Feb 16, 2009)

So has anyone actually contacted Vom Mystical Haus Shepherds yet??? This is a breeder here in NC that I looked at while searching for my new pup. I am very interested to see if he is aware of these pups being sold in a pet store. If no one else has contacted him, I'm planning on doing so.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

I know the woman that owns Mystical and I can contact her to let her know about the pups.


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

I know that buying (imo rescuing) these dogs from the pet store would add to the problem but can anyone go get these pups and do the job that the pet store isn't so these adorable fuzballs have a chance at a happy life?

I know many of you have experience in placing these pups into appropriate, pre-screened, experienced handlers??


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Rachel, that would be good.







I am also hoping that someone can contact the pet store regarding these not-for-the-casual-owner puppies, who deserve experienced, workingdog home placements to avoid tragic futures.

Musa, thanks for adding your input. I know you're still hurting for your boy.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

I emailed her with the thread.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Jessica, I agree with you on both counts.. that buying would add to the underlying mall pet shop problem... but also that the best chance these babies have is someone with real workingline dog experience placing them into homes who are prepared to handle what these babies will need-- especially once they hit teenagerhood.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

If the person in Kansas has transferred registration, AKC or whomever the dogs are registered with may be able to tell you the current owner.

The pet store isn't going to tell you the name in part because they do not want you to go directly to the supplier for a dog, cutting them out. It may even be in their contract that they cannot/will not reveal the name of a breeder.

I'm not sure that a pet store could legally screen potential buyers the way an individual breeder can. 


Someone mentioned that this was the sign of the times economically -- that might be why the female was sold and it might account for the pups being at the pet store. The person with the bitch may have faced either taking them to the pound (not having buyers for males with hernias perhaps) or the pet store. He probably thought they had a better chance at the pet store. Even in working line litters, you sometimes get a pretty easy going pup. (just looking for the better possibilities here).


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## southerncharm (Feb 16, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: NWS_HavenI emailed her with the thread.



Great! Can't wait to see what is going on with this situation.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Such beautiful dogs, and a nightmare for any normal unsuspecting pet owner!!!!! 

Seems like a few of us have emailed the breeder from Mystical, be interesting to see if they can do anything....They seem to be responsible breeders from their website.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

> Quote: I emailed her with the thread.


As did I. I'm sure that they will be very unhappy to hear that two of their puppies are in a pet store!!


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Has anyone considered that the pedigree could be a rip-off? Like they just went online and printed off a good-looking piece of paper to sell the dogs faster??


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

Doubtful. Both the sire and dam were owned by the same kennel.


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## southerncharm (Feb 16, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MinnieskiHas anyone considered that the pedigree could be a rip-off? Like they just went online and printed off a good-looking piece of paper to sell the dogs faster??



Yep, I've thought of that. That's another reason why I think Mystical should be notified.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sorry, this burns me up!!!! This is what can happen when large scale commerical breeders, or any breeder!, sells dogs/pups on open registration to pretty much anyone with cash. Females get bred, passed around, bred, resold to BYB who just want to breed for money.

At least the guy got the hernia's fixed...maybe he just needed money to pay the vet bills - but these are good looking pups and like the rest of you, I pray they don't end up in the wrong hands...perhaps the pet store should contact local LE and offer them a good deal on them.

Lee


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## southerncharm (Feb 16, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: NWS_HavenDoubtful. Both the sire and dam were owned by the same kennel.


Yes, but they could have intentionally printed off pedigrees of a sire and dam from the same kennel. They may have intentionally picked from a kennel in a different state. Perhaps they thought by choosing from a kennel so far away, the breeder is less likely to hear from whomever purchases the pups.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

I wonder if they told Steph if they had AKC papers?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The look of the pup leads me to believe the pedigree is right on. So beautiful!


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Gorgeous pups!








Prosp. buyers don't have a clue what they're getting into with those workinglines- hugely irresponsible from this guy- this is almost criminal


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

What a huge, huge shame. I hope these pups don't end up in the news down the line....


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I am saddened by these puppies' plight but it is unfortunately far from unique. I suspect this kind of thing happens quite frequently. In rescue we see MANY beautiful and obviously working lines dogs show up in shelters and dumped by owners who couldn't handle them or simply didn't want them anymore. 

Although the dogs we see _look_ identical to the dogs purchased from well-known working lines kennels they lack tattoos or microchips indentifying their origin. I think most of these dogs are what I have called in previous threads "second generation" dogs, that is their parents, like the bitch on this thread, came from well-known kennels, but the bitch's offspring are being sold indiscriminately and without a breeder safety net in petstores, in the newspaper classifieds, and to anyone with the money to pay. In this day and age of nothing registries and a consuming public who doesn't know the difference, these pups exemplify the risks inherent in selling intact dogs and bitches. Your ability to prevent this kind of situation is only as good as your screening procedure.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Steph - I"m just curious, how much was the pet store asking for these babies? How much would they have cost from the breeder? 

Sick, this just makes me sick. People who buy dogs in a pet store are making an impulse buy. Nobody thinks I'm going to go to different petstores and find the best dog I can. They just see a cute dog and get it. Don't do any homework about the breed until they already have and love the dog.

My neighbors have an irish terrier from a petstore. They paid as much as getting him from a breeder. He's an idiot and so are they becuase I've had to give them a mountain of dog training, behavior etc books.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I hope someone who can handle these pups gets them and they don't in 6 months end up in a shelter. 

I knw we all hate buying from Pet Stores but if the price was right, wouldn't it be better for these two pups if someone who actually knew about working lines got them out of there.

Val


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

That would definitely depend on whether or not the owner seemed receptive to the idea of NOT selling working lines GSDs in future. If buying the pups encourages him to continue stocking them (or any GSDs) then more dogs have lost out.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Hannah I understand what you are saying. I just feel so bad for theses boy figuring the odds are they will be in a shelter within a year.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I know, I really do.







I look at them and they are adorable and sweet and could make the RIGHT home incredibly happy. But as hard as it is, I believe we've got to draw a line in the sand somewhere. These aren't the only working line puppies being sold to anyone who will buy them. Are we could to buy them all? And if we do, what message does that send to the sellers? 

There are no good or easy answers to be had here. Even speaking as a rescue person who deals daily with the end result of people buying dogs they weren't prepared for, I do not think the solution can ever lie in putting money in the pockets of the millers, the bybs, or the petstores however strong our desire to save these individual puppies. 

I would encourage anyone who is moved to help these sweet babies to consider adopting one of the working line dogs off the urgent board, to donate money to one of the many reputable groups working to prevent the sale of dogs and cats in petstores, and to support _only_ those breeders with the _most_ stringent screening and follow up policies on every dog they sell.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gosh, I feel sorry for the puppies. I do not think the ends justify the means though. Two puppies in this instance purchased from a pet store will mean more litters and more puppies being placed in the same circumstance. 

I know that is cold. 

Unfortunately, unless you have papers sold with the pups, there is no way to verify the puppies' pedigree. A working dog organization may be able to help the store understand that by pressure, they would be better to relinquish these pups to a rescue for the cost that he spent on them. 

A good club should be able to muster enough support that they could picket, or station people at the store, providing pamphlets and information about what it takes to own a working line dog, simply scare people away from the pups until the owner of the store just wants to get his money back and to get rid of the pesky protestors. 

Regardless of how hard times are, I would not purchase a puppy from a pet store. They do not have the knowledge and time to KNOW what lines they have. Are there show-line Rottweilers, they sell Rottys. They will sell anything there is a market for. If you put the money in front of them they will sell you the puppy. They will then order a few more to take their places. 

It is sad for the puppies. Maybe some bubble gum chewing, credit card weilding, would've bought a golden mall shopper will get the pup, find a site like this, realize they are way over their head, and relinquish it to rescue sooner rather than later. And maybe the pups will be ok in a pet home. 

This is one of the reasons why there should be a law against selling puppies in pet stores. It would solve a lot of problems.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

This is really sad. But someone will eventually buy them right? And most likely someone who isn't prepared for what they're getting. Would it be so horrible for someone who knows what they're doing to get them and place them carefully? 
I may sound really naive here but...what do they do with the puppies if they don't sell them? Do they put them in a shelter? We don't have petstores where I live (at least not that sells puppies and kittens). 
I know what you're saying though, pupresq







No matter what you do in this situation it's just sad.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I disagree that securing these two will cause broker/petshop to continue... they would *anyway*. This petstore (and broker) WILL do business-- _not more of it_, not less of it-- if these pups are bought and then placed in knowledgable, screened homes. Buying THESE two puppies will NOT make this pet shop or broker eagerly increase churning out MORE to "meet the demand" because someone took these two in.

We KNOW about these two-- and the issue here is, that they are NOT in a rescue. The workingline dogs who ARE in a rescue have all that they need-- wonderful, sensible foster Moms and coordinators who would very carefully screen buyers. Those dogs in rescue have what they need.

These two do not have what they need-- and may not be headed for the safety of rescue, but rather a lifetime of confusing strife, struggle, dischord-- and then a shelter or a lonely farm road as a car speeds away.

Sorry, guys.. I can't agree. The dogs in rescue have GREAT folks to care for them and place them safely, these two do not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I hate the idea that the pet store will get $1000 to $2000 for each of these babies if someone "rescues" them. Considering they probably paid between $200 and $400 for the puppies, they will just buy more and more of them. 

The only thing that stops a store from purchasing a product is for that product not to sell and to realize a loss. The best bet would be for these guys to sit their for a month and then a rescue come in and offer $200 per pup, but be willing to go up to the purchased price of the pups. The store owner is still out the money he paid for caring for the dog, but by then he might just want them off his hands. Seeing a way out of a total loss, he may go for it. 

The sad thing is, unless someone breaks the DO NOT SUPPORT PUPPY MILLS / PET STORES SELLING PUPPIES rule, then these guys are going to sit in a cage for a long time, or are going to be sold to Joe Public, who may not know what he is getting. In fact, no serious working dog fancier is going to looking for a pup in a pet store. 

Maybe pet stores have a deal with laboratories, dogs they do not sell within a certain time frame go to test labs -- EEEk! It would make sense though. People who care about their dogs do not let uninformed people sell them to all comers. What a gruesome thought. I would want to get the puppies out of there if that was the case. 

I do not go into pet stores that sell puppies so I won't be tempted to "rescue."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Puppies in a kennel with 1000 dogs up to their hocks in poop do not have what they need either. But do you go up, hand over $1500 to get a GSD pup out of that situation? 

What are you doing? You are saying, go to it, breed more bitches, make more puppies. 

If no one buys that puppy mill's puppies, the puppy mill will go bankrupt and close down. Dogs will be rescued or euthanized, More litters will not be created. It is the only way to stop people from large scale puppy dealing, is not to give postive rewards for doing so. 

Supporting pet stores that sell puppies EQUALS paying puppy mills to stay in business.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Times are tough. People are not buying much of anything. Selling two working line puppies at full price, might just indicate to the pet store owner that the people are willing to fork out for working line dogs, and he may then be looking for them.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm sorry, but I'm absolutely in agreement with Sue here. When you give money to a petstore you are supporting what they're doing. When petstores stop having buyers they will stop selling puppies. Petstores across the country are loaded with dogs that deserve a good home just as much as these two, many who will end up just as inappropriately placed (Dalmatians and Huskies come to mind) but it is what it is. When we give them our money we feed into the system.

And I'm saying this as a person who lives these conundrums day in and day out. I have thought about this, researched this, struggled with this, but the bottom line is that you can't reward these people financially if you ever want them to stop. You can save these two puppies but at what ultimate cost?

The workingline dogs in rescue are only there by the grace of God and for every one with a wonderful sensible foster mom there are at least 5 more dying in a shelter somewhere. Every dog I adopt out represents another dog I can save so when someone adopts from rescue they clear the space to save another dog. But of course the exact same premise works with a petstore - every dog that is bought clears a space for another puppy to be brought in from the mill/broker/byb. 

These puppies may find good homes, or they may be surrendered to a shelter in a few months, or something else may happen to them. Just like every other puppy in a petstore or in the classifieds, or in a shelter, their future is uncertain. But the one thing I KNOW is that you cannot fix these problems on the consumer end, you've got to get to the root of the problem if you want a better life for more than just these two puppies. That means not spending money at petstores, bybs, mills, - and it also means not spending money with big name breeders who sell or stud their dogs to anyone with enough $. It means adopting, it means supporting rescue, it means supporting only the most careful and responsible of breeders, it means S/N, it means putting legislative and social pressure on Petstores to stop selling live animals, it means educated consumers. Those are the only ways to prevent future puppies from suffering this exact same fate.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

But not buying a puppy likely destined for a terrible scenario *doesn't* fix the root. Just like someone going vegetarian doesn't stop factory farming. Wish both of those things DID fix the root problems-- but they don't. This will continue because someone _will_ buy those pups. It just likely won't be someone who can care for them safely.

Here's wishing the very best for those two little guys. They matter.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

They definitely matter! And so do the next litter and the next and the next and all the other equally deserving puppies out there in the same boat. It is precisely because I care about what happens to them and dogs like them that I spend all of my time and money doing rescue. 

No, not buying two puppies will not change the world overnight, but not buying from petstores absolutely DOES change their practices over time. I've seen it in my own lifetime. I see it every day.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I understand both sides, but I agree with Patti. They WILL be bought is what we're both saying. Whether someone who knows what they're doing buys them or someone who doesn't is the only uncertain. Because they are just too cute, too adorable, too "rare" looking to someone who has never seen a sable GSD, for someone to not buy them. 

I really hope you guys get a response from the breeder you contacted. This makes me so angry.

ETA: I completely understand what you're saying Pupresq and have great respect for your knowledge and what you do. There aren't any easy answers for this, you're right.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Not all petstore puppies are bought and not all petstore puppies are bought quickly. Petstores can and do surrender puppies to rescues and shelters and more commonly, they reduce their prices. If the puppies sell quickly and at full price they WILL restock the same type of puppies. That is just the reality. 

I know you guys care a lot about these puppies and I don't question for a minute that your hearts are absolutely in the right place, but seriously - talk to rescues that specialize in mill-work and closing down petstores if you don't believe me. Buying the puppies is not the long term answer because ultimately it hurts more puppies than it helps.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Maybe it will help to think about it this way - when someone comes on this board and they're talking about buying a dog from a petstore or from a byb, do we tell them "yes! Do that! You will be saving the puppy from a terrible life!" Or do we discourage them? We obviously discourage them. 

I know one of the reasons we discourage them is because of the risk in their purchase - buying dogs that aren't health certified and may have genetic or other problems is bad for the consumer. But isn't part of the reason we tell them that because we don't want to encourage the behavior of those producers? I mean, if it's not - wouldn't it be better to encourage them to go on and buy those dogs so that they will be safe and rescued? Isn't it better that someone who cares enough about the breed to join this board buy the puppy with HD or whatever than some yahoo who is much less likely to treat it? Is that puppy likely to end up in any more suitable a situation than either one of these? 

But we don't do that. So is that because we care less what happens to those other dogs or is it because when not faced with pictures of adorable and desirable puppies, we are able to keep the big picture in mind? We know that to buy puppies from such situations encourages the production of more such puppies - whether those are puppies from unscreened parents or lovely working lined dogs sold to petstores. We vote with our cash about the kind of retailing we want. 

As far as the other analogies - consumer demand for vegetarian food, organic produce, fair trade coffee, whatever you name it can and does change production practices. It is only through that kind of collective action that we can ever hope to affect change. 

Buying from a petstore helps the puppy in front of you but it hurts many that you'll never see. Are they worth less? Because to me they matter too.


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## AQC82 (Jan 19, 2009)

This is very sad indeed. I'm not very educated on the varies breeders and things of that nature but I do see the horrid outcome this is and could potentially become with these pups being in a petstore for just any "joe schmo" to purchase. I don't know if it has already been mentioned but would it be possible for someone to contact this breeder either as a new client or a past one and non-chalantly (sp) asked them how they sold their dams and do they condone the selling of their dogs whether they be puppies or adults to pet stores. I was just thinking that they may have no clue that this man did this and may take it upon themselves to rescue the puppies themselves being that from what I read on the website they take such pride in their animals.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Just curious, Jenn I think you know the answer to this question and just didn't post it on the board. Can you PM me with what the Pet Store is asking for these pups.

Thanks
Val


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

Pupresq, I totally get what you're saying, and it was one of the first things that I thought about after reading the initial post. It causes me very conflicting emotions. Either way, I'm not going to be rescuing those puppies anyway, I couldn't afford to even I was closer to them. And I don't ever condone getting puppies or kittens from petshops, either. It's just hard when you see pictures of the little pups, I can't help but think of someone getting them out of there who will give them a good home. 
I don't know. Maybe it was all a mistake and the breeder will get them out of there. I can hope right?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:It's just hard when you see pictures of the little pups


I know. I really and truly do. It's why I do rescue.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerJust curious, Jenn I think you know the answer to this question and just didn't post it on the board. Can you PM me with what the Pet Store is asking for these pups.
> 
> Thanks
> Val


Jenn, as in me? No I don't know, I wondering the same thing this morning.

It makes me sad becuase I met someone recently who asked me how much I paid for Otto, when I told the person, they remarked how they'd paid $1000 for a GSD in a petstore. Then went on to tell me what a mess their dog is.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

I did get a reply from Jennifer at Mystical Haus and she asked me to post it for her which I can't do until I get home from work. I'll put it up later this evening!


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_I understand both sides, but I agree with Patti. They WILL be bought is what we're both saying._

I don't believe they will be bought quickly. Sable is not the commonly known GS color- and some people might not even recognize them as a GSD bc of the color.
As harsh as it sounds, I really hope the pups don't sell (quickly), so that the store hopefully refuses to take in more pups from this particular "supplier".


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Me too! Thankfully a lot of petstores have stopped stocking large breed dogs because often they don't sell quickly and they grow too large for their cages. Consumer demand has everything to do with supply.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

I can post the price, but did not know if that was a great idea? Do you guys think it is ok?

Or you can just pm me if you would like to know.

Going to go see if they are still there right now.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

Here is the message I got from Jennifer so if anyone has any suggestions for her please feel free to contact her.

Tracy,

Although you do not know me super well as we have only had the one business dealing, but I hope you understand I had no clue about this. You are the first to bring this to my attention but not the only one.

 I am going to contact the man who purchased Calia and ask him what the H*#@ he was thinking!!!

I am not a member of that board you sent me the link from so could you please post the following message for me? I honestly do not know what to do.

...... I never actually owned Calia (the dam) on paper. I took possession of her from a close friend who needed to place her and several other GSDs due to their personal situation. I slowly placed all the dogs for them. I had intended to keep Calia because her pedigree complimented my boy Roscoe's (Chero Bulsara) so well.

After breeding her, my situation changed . My sister who has had two strokes needed to come live with me. She needs constant assistance with everyday tasks. Suddenly with having way too much on my plate I did some kennel down sizing. I placed several of my breeding dogs including Calia (already bred) and Enza who I miss dearly even now. I really didn't want to place those girls, but I had no choice.

The gentleman who purchased Calia was thrilled to be getting her. He said he had been looking for a female with her bloodline for a while and that they were small scale hobby breeders. 

I thought I was placing her in a great home. He was a higher up working for the Bayer company. He contacted me a couple of times throughout her pregnancy and called me when the pups were born. The last thing I heard everything was great.

I guess the reason she only shows up on my site is because he does not have one. 


I'm devastated...

Jennifer Thompson
Vom Mystical Haus Shepherds
http://www.mysticalshepherds04.com


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:I thought I was placing her in a great home. He was a higher up working for the Bayer company. He contacted me a couple of times throughout her pregnancy and called me when the pups were born. The last thing I heard everything was great.


It's wonderful how fast the original owner from Mystical responded, not ignoring her responsibility...









Just goes to show no matter how well you try to screen and keep track of your dogs, once they are sold and out of your hands.... well, it may truly be out of your hands. It's horrible how people can lie.

I'm wondering if the petstore purchased the puppies outright? Or is just showing them at the store for a commission? If they don't own them outright, maybe 

Jennifer Thompson
Vom Mystical Haus Shepherds
http://www.mysticalshepherds04.com 

can get them back and work to find good homes for them...


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Did this guy sign any kind of contract? Either on what he would or would not do with Calia, her offspring, or as a condition of the breeding with her male?


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## Blacryan (Feb 11, 2009)

Just to toss it out there. I bought my pup I am going to be reciving tonight from Jennifer. she has been nothing but professional the whole entire time. she has responded to every email I have sent, and usually responds very promptly as she did the email about this situation. From my many many emails with her, her biggest concern seemed to be the pups themselves. When she went to shipped the pet today, she called me and gave me all the information and informed me they played with the pup and were very active with him prior to the flight so he would be tired and sleep on the flight. 

She has answered every question I have had prior to and after purchasing the pup. Trust me, I had TONS AND TONS of questions aswell. 

I would give her the benefit of the doubt on this 1.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

> Quote: Did this guy sign any kind of contract?


 Good question and I'll ask her.

I think Jennifer just going to Kansas and getting the pups back right now would be a little hard to do if she has her ill sister living with her. I had a suggestion in PM that she just talk to the pet store to let them know what they are selling and what kind of liability they may be looking at. From what I know of pet stores, that probably won't matter a hoot to them.

Just got another email from Jennifer as I was typing this. 

"I don't think there is anything I can do about those beautiful boys since I never owned them or their litter. He is the recorded owner of the litter."

I just read through her first email again and noticed that she says that she was never the owner of the dam on paper.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I think she's sol as they aren't her pups or her dog.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

But somebody was the previous owner. Did that person have him sign any sort of agreement? And she's the owner of the stud used - any kind of contract or agreement there?


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

I went back today.

The only one that was there was the darker sable that I posted pictures of.

I asked if the other had been sold, and a young girl working there told me he had been yesterday (the lighter pup). 

I just saw them on Wednesday and it seemed they had not been there long.

Some of you are probably thinking why the heck I do not say anything, but I get tongue tied.







As much as I want to say, not sure how to say it, maybe I can just print some info off and take it to them?

The other night when they showed me the pedigrees I started talking about working lines and how I own one ect., but I don't think they were taking me serious and got sortof a blank look.

What an unfortunate situation all around.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

This is weird - when I googled the dam last night, I ended up on this page. That's why I though they came from mystical shepherd.

http://www.mysticalshepherds04.com/calia.htm

Now I understand she sold the pregnant girl, but you'd think there would have been some contract about the puppies?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Depends. Good question to ask breeders that have done that. 

1. Imported in a pregnant female or sold a pregnant female.
2. Sold a dog and got the next breeding...

What have they done in terms of contracts?


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: kelsoI went back today.
> 
> The only one that was there was the darker sable that I posted pictures of.
> 
> ...


I just got a little caught up with this thread.







One was sold. That is good, it is out of that little cage. But I will forever worry. 

I never want to see it come back aroung through MoGS. 

This thread was UP, then down for me. I thought maybe they could reclaim them, but it sounds like no. 

Steph you did everything you could. We can only pray now that they get a good home. 

It would be cool to be able to reach the new owners and help in training, maybe that would be to pushy. 

I do not know I am at a loss. I am so sorry Steph,







I know how this must be making you feel after being squishy with the little fuzz balls.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

I did try to ask who bought the pup, or what kind of home, and the younger girl behind the counter said she doesnt really know, it was a "tall man" That is all she said









But I dont even think they have been there long at all, so you are right at least one is in a home. I guess we can just hope that it is a good one, and I am like you....hope to not see any of these pups turning up in rescue around here in 6mo to a year...

I did not really do anything at all, just posted them here, but thanks Kelly. I probably should have done more.. I guess it is good to get it out there? Still wish I knew who the guy was and where the rest of the pups are as he lives right here in town.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaThis is weird - when I googled the dam last night, I ended up on this page. That's why I though they came from mystical shepherd.
> 
> http://www.mysticalshepherds04.com/calia.htm
> 
> Now I understand she sold the pregnant girl, but you'd think there would have been some contract about the puppies?


I think it was said above that she never owned the female outright? Maybe that is why? not sure


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## MYSTICALSHEPHERDS04 (Feb 22, 2009)

Tracy,

Thank you for being my voice here earlier today. I joined so I could speak for myself.

There was no contract. The previous owners trusted me to place her in a good home since I could not keep her myself. I placed a perfectly healthly pregnant female with someone who made me feel he had the perfect home for her. I got duped but he WILL get a LOUD piece of my mind.


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

Such as sad thing









I hope those that purchase the dogs can handle them - really thats the best we can hope at this point (even though it won't fix the issue)


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: VomMysticalHaus I placed a perfectly healthly pregnant female with someone who made me feel he had the perfect home for her. I got duped but he WILL get a LOUD piece of my mind.


Thank you for taking the time to come here. I do hope you give him a loud piece. What was he thinking?


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: VomMysticalHaus I placed a perfectly healthly pregnant female with someone who made me feel he had the perfect home for her. I got duped but he WILL get a LOUD piece of my mind.
> ...


Thanks for coming here.
I am so close (as far as distance to these pups) Is there anything else I can possibly do? One is sold. 

Just feel like I should be doing something else. Anyone recommend any literature to give them? I know about working lines as I have one, but do not know these lines and like I said I tried to talk with them a little but have a feeling they were not taking me seriously or that they cared. 

I also did not say anything about what went on here,just went in to see if the pups were still there today


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: kelso
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> ...


sadly, i think the shop would say "oh thats nice" and throw it in the trash as soon as you leave. they won't want to possibly lose a sale on a $1000 dog they paid $200 for


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Jennifer Thompson (Vom Mystical Haus Shepherds),* thanks for joining the site and posting, this situation must be breaking your heart.

Just goes to show no matter how careful you try to be, some people will tell you what they think you want to hear, and then go do whatever they want......Shame on the guy who purchased the bitch and then took two of the puppies to the pet store. Guess it does show not ALL puppies are from puppy mills that you see there.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Jennifer,

It sounds like you had checked into the guy. Has he ever bred before or have much experience with breeding/placing pups?


If not, I'm thinking that he might just not of known better. Maybe if you call him up and explain why this is such a bad idea he might be able to reclaim the dog that is left.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thank you for joining, Jennifer. I am sorry that you had to hear this bad news in this way!









I hope that there is some way that this man can be contacted (who left the puppies there), and convinced to get that other puppy out of a situation where it is likely to be sold to someone totally unprepared to deal with such a dog.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

Jennifer







Aboard! Please stay with us!

I think we can all learn from your experience! I would love to be the fly on the wall when you talk to this guy. I hope he comes to realize what a lousy thing he has done and further let's hope that the rest of the litter does not meet a similar fate.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*



> Originally Posted By: EJQJennifer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I ditto that ............









I have been watching this thread & oh boy, I know your heart must be broken to see such wonderful pups from a bitch you had at one point now in a petstore *maybe* facing a not so good home & *could* end up at the pound/shelter someday. Let's HOPE not.

Them pups are just stunning..............









Off the topic here, but wondering since I read on the pups info. Would a breeder NOT sell or could NOT a pup with hernias ? Is this a major flaw ? I ask, b/c after we bought our pup we noticed this same thing with him. We just had it fixed. Vet just said, just happens with some pups. I'm not sure 100% why or if it's a bad thing ?









These 2 are just breath taking & I hope they do land in a great home.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

umbilical hernias are no big deal and yes you can sell them like that, it's just noted on the health certificate. Most cases it's no big deal as they are typically very tiny. Some are much larger and have to be surgically fixed. Gaudi had one that was bigger than a quarter but it was never fixed and it never impacted her life. Sometimes it's genetic, sometimes it's due to an overactive mom biting it too close.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

And sometimes it is due to big puppies and being picked up constantly and not supporting the rear at the same time; if effect, letting the pup rear end hang.


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*



> Originally Posted By: Betty101Jennifer,
> 
> It sounds like you had checked into the guy. Has he ever bred before or have much experience with breeding/placing pups?
> 
> ...


True Betty...
Also can check on the other pups he has..

I guess lesson learned the hard way


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

I hope someone will also contact the pet store. Just because you think they might not listen is not a reason to try to educate them about the danger of selling a dog like this as a pet.


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## MYSTICALSHEPHERDS04 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

Hello everyone...

I have GREAT NEWS! I received a response from the guy who dropped them off. He has had them mark the remaining puppy as sold and he is picking him back up.

To basically make a long story short I'm going to give you all the readers digest version of his email to me.

He had the litter of 6 puppies professionally evaluated with four having more extreme working drives and two he was told would need pet homes. The owner of the store is a friend of his and he agreed to place the puppies in the store to sell basically in exchange for referrals of anyone actually looking for a working puppy back to him. After I contacted him he found a perminate pet home for the remaining boy among his friends and he will be going there soon. He said he is very sorry and that he didn't realize it was such a wrong thing to do.

The puppy that was sold went without papers.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

I'm glad he's taking the pup back. I do hope the first puppy went to a good home.



> Quote:He said he is very sorry and that he didn't realize it was such a wrong thing to do.


eek.


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## ituneyou (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

Well there you go another mystery solved









Steve


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

Thank you Steph for bringing this all to light and the result of your posting it... What a network on this board to help!


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

Glad too hear, thanks much for the update & getting ahold of this man ...............









A sable looking like that with less drive & just needing a PET home, my dream someday !







Them 2 boys were just gorgeous.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

Whew! Good to hear he had them evaluated and they had low drives and that is why they need pet homes. 

I imagined so much worse in my mind. BUT still not a good idea,









Good out come. Hope the other one got a good home and remains to have a low drive pet personality.










Hope the fuzz balls have happy lives!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: Pet Store GSD working line puppies...unbelieva*

But even if they were low drive, more suited for a pet home, you have not idea who is going to buy them, and what kind of home they will end up in. Not really an excuse to sell them that way. 

Glad everything is working out okay, and hope the one little guy did end up with responsible owners.


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