# I am NOT happy



## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

On Saturday I sent our breeder some pics of Kiah. Kiah is almost 6 months and her ears are still completely undecided as to what they want to do. I told her a few weeks ago that they were still down but she told me to wait until 6 months. I did put breathright strips in as I was worried. After 3 days or being up on their own, they flopped again.

Yesterday she emailed and said that I need to tape now. She sent me some odd instructions about foam insulation pipe, cut to length (not cut flat like most say) and then put in ears and use masking tape around. Then tape both ears together. And she sent me a pic of one her dogs with this done. And it was my dog's SIRE!!!!!!!!! I was soOOOOOOO mad.







She knew all along that her male was producing dogs with ear problems and she kept it from us all this time. She did get his ears up but that isn't really the point. If she knew, then I could have been doing this weeks ago. If she knew, she shouldn't be breeding him. She just led us to believe one pup had one ear down, once. No mention that the father of nearly all her puppies had that problem. 

And while I love my dog not matter what, I would have like to have seen her ears go up naturally. With my last shepherd (resuced as a pup) we had no idea what dog she was or if she was a mix. And we didn't know to expect ears up so sort of missed all the fun of watching. We just would have like to have seen it this time. And not have to tape or glue. I feel so let down by somebody that we really trusted.

Ok, vent over. Sorry 

This is the photo of Kiah's father with taped ears some 4 years ago. Ear taping looks really strange to me!!!!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Personally, I would go with taping at a much younger age if I had no plans to breed the dog later. I prefer the better safe than sorry approach.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

I agree and would be a more than a little peeved at this breeder's lack of disclosure.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Jackie,

Couple of things.

1. Keep your puppy lean, as in very. Do you have a side picture?
2. Get raw marrow bones to chew on - that 

What are the ears doing? Is it the tip(s) or further down the ear? Has the puppy completely (as in all new teeth in and fully emerged) finished teething?


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86Jackie,
> 
> Couple of things.
> 
> ...


I will try to get a shot of her side on later. I wouldn't say she is VERY lean though but not overweight. Curiosity begs me to ask why? (I learn by being curious LOL)

I found some "soup bones" frozen in the meat dept yesterday and she has one of those. They are marrow bones but cut to about 5 inches long. That is all we can get due to our remoteness. I guess it is better than nothing. She is really enjoying it anyway.

All teeth seem to have emerged now. An incisor came out last week and the other took was already very visible. We are having trouble seeing her back teeth properly but there might be a couple of doubles back there too (adult emerging but baby tooth still there)

This is the photo of Kiah that I sent her breeder. The ears were taking it in turns to be up/down but now it has stayed this way for about 5 days.


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## darga19 (Mar 4, 2009)

When you say 'undecided'...do you mean they're up and down? Or they've never been up at all?

In my experience, if they've stood up once, they'll be up again if they don't get damaged. It's normal to go up and down until 6-7 months.

If they've never been up, continue with the taping, etc.

-------------------


Sorry, I missed where you said they'd been up and down. Like I said, usually if they've been up once, they'll be up again.


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Christian2009Sorry, I missed where you said they'd been up and down. Like I said, usually if they've been up once, they'll be up again.


They have only ever been up at the same time for a max of 3 days. That was after the first set of breathright strips fell out.

Since then, this ear has stayed down and the other is up most of the time (not all the time).

You guys are so supportive....thank you!!!


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## darga19 (Mar 4, 2009)

Have they stood up on their own at all though, without you helping? 

Marshall's ears were up and down so much when he was a pup...I was a nervous wreck. My fiancee kept telling me how cute he'd look with floppy ears









If they've ever stood up on their own, even for a short time, they'll probably be up again. If they haven't, I'd continue trying whatever you can...

Good luck!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

So if a dog had to have help to get his/her ears up then that dog shouldnt be allowed to breed?


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeSo if a dog had to have help to get his/her ears up then that dog shouldnt be allowed to breed?


Well I am no breeder but I have done lots of reading and been to many breeders' sites and it seems that many would not breed a dog whose ears did not go up. Also erect ears are a part of the German Shepherd Dog breed standard so why would you breed something that is failing the standard? I know there are many breeders on this forum so I would be very interested to know that they think. But as I said, I am NO expert and just going by what I have read and seen on breeders' sites.

I guess my main point anyway is that she knew our dog's father had problems and she left it until now to tell us. If I hadn't contacted earlier about this, I _probably_ wouldn't feel so upset.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Ok. Im asking about the case where the ears just needed HELP to stand if they shouldnt breed them...so glued/taped and then the ears were up.

I understand your position 100%, I would at least like to know if the sire/dam needed help with the ears so that you could also help them up as early as possible. Hang in there, still very young and lots of time. As I noted in my other thread Ive had great luck with gluing in ear forms.


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeOk. Im asking about the case where the ears just needed HELP to stand if they shouldnt breed them...so glued/taped and then the ears were up.
> 
> I understand your position 100%, I would at least like to know if the sire/dam needed help with the ears so that you could also help them up as early as possible. Hang in there, still very young and lots of time. As I noted in my other thread Ive had great luck with gluing in ear forms.


I get your point about breeding








We are going to try to find some glue today. Our location makes it hard but I have found a place that will ship if I cannot get it from the medical supply place.

Thanks!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Good luck!


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

It's hard to say about the ear that's down in your picture, but the ear I can see looks like it has a pretty major crease in it. You DEFINITELY want to tape that ear. Once you have a permanent break/crease in the cartilage it there to stay.


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: OkieAmazonIt's hard to say about the ear that's down in your picture, but the ear I can see looks like it has a pretty major crease in it. You DEFINITELY want to tape that ear. Once you have a permanent break/crease in the cartilage it there to stay.


They both have that line that you can see in the photo on the up ear. And you are voicing my concerns exactly. I have taped her ears up as per breaders instructions and I am going to see if my vet can do it better. She is a real wriggler. He comes to town on Friday. I can't get the glue to glue in foam etc so I have to wait for some to be shipped in.


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## Laura H. (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeSo if a dog had to have help to get his/her ears up then that dog shouldnt be allowed to breed?


Absolutely not.

Both of my dogs are "floppers" and the breeder, actually BYB tried to blame it on ME! Even though I was feeding them the food that she had them on, she said either they weren't getting enough calcium, or they'd been playing too rough.

From what I was able to find on the internet, the most common source of the problem is genetics. So if the sire or dam had floppy ears that were taped, chances are they will be passed down.

But the fact that she wouldn't even entertain this possibility infuriated me. I was sending her pictures of my boys, not any more. I don't love my dogs any less, but I have to be honest, I was very disappointed in the beginning.


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## Laura H. (Feb 23, 2009)

I can't believe she sent you pictures of the sire with his ears taped!!!!


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Lara I can't believe she sent you pictures of the sire with his ears taped!!!!


Yep I was floored!!

Also when I mentioned a couple of months back that Kiah's ears were not doing anything really, she had a chance to for-warn me that there might be problems but not a word.

My vet looked at Kiah's ear yesterday and thinks it is unlikely that it will come up. He did say we could try taping or gluing but he thinks her ears are too thin.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sounds like they have very soft ears, all the dogs I've had, their ears never needed taping and were up no later than 12 weeks..

I would have been majorly peeved at that breeder for 1. not having you tape sooner, like months ago!!! You can certainly still try the foam inserts and taping, but just a word of caution on using tape.

My aussie's ears were UP like my gsd's (of course I want flop eared aussie and she decides she wants to look like the gsd's!LOL),,anyhow I taped her's "down",,well she had a reaction to the tape and it wasn't pretty,,probably one in a million chance,,but just something to keep an eye on , when you tape..

Good luck!
diane


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## Laura H. (Feb 23, 2009)

I bought my first two GSDs from a professional breeder, no ear problems. 

When we lost our Rocky, I had known I wanted to get two pups from the same litter, so we went with a BYB, part of the reason being cost, I'm not working, etc.

Their ears were doing everything they were supposed to be doing the first five months, up, sideways, on the head. I know sometimes they don't stay up for good until after teething, seven months.

I started getting anxious, but my DH said I was the exact same way regarding Axel & Rocky's ears, so I told myself to relax.

All of a sudden they're eight months old & the ears aren't up!!!! Now they CAN hold them up, if they're outside, but when they come in they go back down. One vet said Harley's ears are actually small for his size, and reading the above posts, both boys' ears are very soft.

You described it perfectly though:

Also erect ears are a part of the German Shepherd Dog breed standard so why would you breed something that is failing the standard? 

Erect ears ARE part of the GSD standard. I just couldn't believe how many people, even on this board said well if you have good dogs, which I do, you love them, which I do, just be happy with that.

That's not the issue. I had always dreamed of having two big male GSDs, which I have, but their ears are down.

I wish my vet or someone also would have said something to me, maybe at 5 months, like keep an eye on them, they may have to be taped. Never experiencing this before I had no clue.

Since they turned a year, IMO it's too late, even though one person said they knew someone who taped at 14 months successfully. Besides, they'd keep taking the strips or whatever off each other.

I'm glad to hear someone verbalize what I was thinking. Not that we don't love our dogs......


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LaraWhen we lost our Rocky, I had known I wanted to get two pups from the same litter, so we went with a BYB, part of the reason being cost, I'm not working, etc.
> <snipped>
> You described it perfectly though:
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for that. I began to feel I was alone in my thoughts.

Kiah was spayed on Friday and, due to our really cold temps, her head cone cracked when she went out to pee this morning. So we drove out to see the vet to get a new one. He said he feels really bad for us about Kiah's ears. He said we did everything right. Did not go with a BYB. Checked out the breeder as best as we could and checked the parents for HD etc. Contacted the breeder at the first sign of the ear problem - even though she didn't admit to anything back then. He wondered if we wished we had gone and got a cheaper dog from a BYB in the nearby town now? Our old shepherd came from that tiny town and we had no idea of her background. Her hips were fine, her ears stood up and she didn't cost us a cent as she was tied to a pole and starving to death and we just asked if we could take her.

Sure made me think. We did what we were supposed to do to try to protect the breeding of GSDs. We did not succomb to a $250 dog but paid a breeder a higher price as we wanted a good shepherd. Yet we still got cheated. It really would be one thing if she didn't know about the sire and floppy ears with other pups. But she did. So you can really see why some people wonder why they should bother spending the extra dollars. I love my dog to bits but I tried to go the right way about all this and still got stung. Her sire is breeding dogs that are failing the GSD standard.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Jackie, I think you have every right to be angry and upset. I agree with you, that this breeder is showing a lack of ethics and how disappointing. If the breeder was doing everything right, breeding dogs whose ears stood naturally, producing dogs whose ears stand as per the standard, and you just happened to get a pup with ear issues, oh well, disappointing, but it sometimes happens, and of course you don't love Kiah any less! That goes without saying.

But you probably feel betrayed by someone (the breeder) whom you put your trust into. And with reason too! One good thing that will come out of this is that people will read this thread and be a little more educated in what to look for in a breeder, and what to avoid.


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidJackie, I think you have every right to be angry and upset. I agree with you, that this breeder is showing a lack of ethics and how disappointing. If the breeder was doing everything right, breeding dogs whose ears stood naturally, producing dogs whose ears stand as per the standard, and you just happened to get a pup with ear issues, oh well, disappointing, but it sometimes happens, and of course you don't love Kiah any less! That goes without saying.
> 
> But you probably feel betrayed by someone (the breeder) whom you put your trust into. And with reason too! One good thing that will come out of this is that people will read this thread and be a little more educated in what to look for in a breeder, and what to avoid.


Exactly! 
I am not sure how much more I could have checked into this breeder but perhaps other people will ask more before they purchase a puppy.

And thank you all for just understanding as that makes us feel a lot happier anyway. The ears going up were quite a big thing for us. You see when we lost our last Shepherd, Kizzie, I was there when she was put to sleep. I held her paw and abolutely sobbed. And the thing that scared me the most was that her ears would go down as she died. Thank God they didn't. Her ears we SO big. Back when we resucued her from starving to death, tied to a pole, we had no idea what sort of dog she was. We just knew - large paws - big dog. And one day we suddenly had this amazing shepherd. And those ears were so wonderful. We had never seen a dog's ears take on a life of their own before







We had not been paying much attention to them due to not knowing what breed she really was. We were looking forward to that with Kiah...........................


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## Laura H. (Feb 23, 2009)

The ears were a huge thing for me also. My brother used to tease Rocky and ask him if he were wearing "ear extensions" his were so big.

It's just one of the many reasons I fell in love with GSDs.

My problem, like I said I bought the first two from reputable breeder, but wasn't very lucky, health wise; Axel had to be put down just after 4 because of advanced kidney disease (no other pups in the litter had it), we got Rocky from her & at two, after a hip tendon injury, found out he had the beginning of HD & arthritis. What do you do, give the pup back for a new one? Of course not.

I always told DH I wanted two pups at a time, instead of six months apart like the last two. I knew I wanted two GSDs, but.....and I hate to use money as a factor, but it was. We transferred here two years ago from NC, DH works for Ford, I haven't been able to find a job, so buying two GSDs from "reputable" breeder, spending a couple thousand, really wasn't an option, not if I wanted two.

I had to add this, I know this is long, but the BYB was charging $500 a piece for the males (I had paid $450 for Axel & Rocky years ago), for a BYB I still thought this was a bit high. She gave us a $50 discount because we got two, but they hadn't had their first shots, since they were only 5-1/2 weeks old. I felt ripped off for that, as that was over $100 at the vet, usually breeder gives first shots.

Then Brody had an ear injury. I have a picture I can re-post, shows perfectly the little gouges torn from his ear from his littermates, plus he had a nasty bite healing. That's the ear I figured we'd have problems with, but he can hold it up. So what's up with that? If any ear had "been played rough with" it was that one. Two dogs, four ears, none of them up. Hmmmm. That's another reason I took them so young, they obviously weren't being watched over, another puppy had had stitches in her lower lip.

I was naive, I just thought a BYB bred a purebred female with purebred male. Plus we had lost Rocky three days earlier, so I was really in no shape for puppies, but we went to see them & of course I fell in love.

Long story short, I had been sending pictures of them to the BYB, she said send pics when their ears go up, I'm waiting, waiting, like I said in my previous post. Here's the funny thing, every place I looked on the internet referred me back to the breeder, who was CLUELESS. That was the first time I realized what a BYB really was.

Then with her inferring I was to blame, their food, playing too rough. We, well DH said these are our last "big" dogs, we'll see.

But I've learned my lesson the hard way. Yes, even a reputable breeder may have a dog where the ears don't stand. In my case, I would bet my bottom dollar in the not too far past a dog was bred who's ears had been taped.

I too love my dogs to pieces. In every other way they're true GSDs. I can't help but look at them and wonder how gorgeous they'd look with the ears up? Even when they do hold them up, outside, they're soft and IMO, especially Harley's too small for his body.

Very glad to know I'm not alone in my thinking either. Sooooooo many people made me feel guilty, if you love the dog & they're healthy what's the big deal, even my DH said that. I tried to explain, kind of getting a zebra with no stripes? Not the best analogy, but....


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LaraVery glad to know I'm not alone in my thinking either. <snip> I tried to explain, kind of getting a zebra with no stripes? Not the best analogy, but....


My husband said something very similar re the zebra. And at least we can commiserate with each other.

Take care


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## Laura H. (Feb 23, 2009)

BTW she is an absolutely beautiful dog!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If a breeder had to tape a breeding dog's ears, I'd want to know. I might still buy the pup anyway, but I would like full disclosure. Nikon's ears stood fine and I'm not sure if his parents were ever taped b/c one is not owned by the breeder and the other was purchased as an adult, but I don't think any of his littermates were taped. He was born in early Sept and they stood for good around Christmas.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Frankly, at first I was going to be a bit critical, because the ear thing seems a bit minor to me.

I also would not criticize the breeder assuming the parents had no similar problems. 

As for those that implied they would have raised the issue months ago, nonesense. None of the dozen or so Shepherds I have had, had their ears pop you until 5-8 months of age, with one exception. 

Let us know when the ears go up; my hunch, it will happen.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Timber, a dropped ear is a fault. If someone is breeding dogs, trying to improve the breed, then at the very least, weak ears should be disclosed to prospective owners. Even if the OP's dog's ears were up at 8 weeks and never dropped, the breeder still should have mentioned it.


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## Laura H. (Feb 23, 2009)

My guess is the people who feel the ears are a minor issue have dogs with nice, strong upright ears.

Both of my dogs' ears are down & they're going to stay down, as they're close to 13 months old now. As I've stated before, I don't love my dogs any less, but it was and is a huge disappointment to me.


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## marylou (Apr 21, 2006)

Jackie and Lara - your dogs are beautiful!

There is *still* hope for your pups' ears, however. My Heidi had floppy ears:
here she is at about 1 1/2









and they came up when she was 8! (yep, 8 years) They were soft on the tips, but they stood up.


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## Laura H. (Feb 23, 2009)

Sometimes when one or both ears are up I still have hope.

Look at this picture where the opposing ear is up, couldn't have staged this one if I planned:










8 years old??? Wow, that's a long time. I've been giving the boys some cottage cheese in their kibble (although I'm reading up on switching to raw) thinking the extra calcium might help, can't hurt.

Thanks for the encouraging words though. Like I said, I love my dogs more than anything & wouldn't trade them for any other dog, but when I look at the beautiful GSDs here, & remember my last two gorgeous boys, I can't help but feel a little bad









The first picture her ears look like angel wings









BTW Brody is on the left Harley on the right


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

I LOVE that photo Lara!









I do the cottage cheese and gelatin too. One of Kiah's ears stayed up for a bit again and down it went again. The other just hangs there limply. She is 6 months old today.

I am hoping for a miracle.


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## Laura H. (Feb 23, 2009)

well I'll be joining you in praying for that miracle LOL


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## sdowden (Apr 7, 2009)

My male pup had his ears up and ready and they haven't faultered since. My female was the runt and has been contiually playing catchup with the ears. She has that blown over look. One ear up across the head and one ear down. I have heard that using Tear Mender Fabric Glue is a good idea.
Getting a German Shepherd Pups Ears Up 

Anywho, I am in the same boat, just hoping and wishing that her ears come up soon. They are 4 months, I guess I should calm down.

And yes, I would be really upset if I actually went to a breeder for my pups and that information was not disclosed.


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