# Fear Aggression: Guidance and Hope? (way long)



## Adaliska (May 19, 2011)

Hey there!

Even though I know that fear aggression occurs irrespective of breed, I'm posting in this community because I've read so many threads here, and I really like the no-nonsense advice y'all offer. I beg your forgiveness, in advance, for this long post. But I figure the more accurate the picture, the better the guidance.

I adopted Loki, a German Shepherd pup, when he was 3.5 months old. A young woman got overwhelmed with having a puppy (in addition to another dog) and wanted to re-home him. I'd been looking for a companion for more than a year (I haunted every local pound so regularly that they started making fun of me), so I went to see him. 

Shy pup, no question. Took about five minutes for him to come up and start snuffling around me. Sweet and playful, then shying away, by turns. I already knew this wasn't a completely confident puppy.

You ever do something stupid while knowing, all the time, that it's stupid? Sitting there in a tiny apartment with a postage stamp back yard, knowing that this was a slightly fearful pup, that he'd never really been walked, not knowing the breeder or his parents at all, knowing that from eight weeks on, this pup had only really met this young lady and her mother (and heaven knows what kind of socialization did or didn't happen before that), knowing that I had acres of land and an excess of love,and hung I went ahead and adopted him anyway. 

I'm an idiot: stipulated.

That said, I barreled into puppy-raising like a house on fire. I live in the middle of nowhere, but every other day, we were in town, walking. First walks? Barked at everyone and everything. Introduction of treats into the program helped loads. Treat before trigger proximity! Treat on approach! Take treats from a child/big dude/kid on a bicycle? Treat-treat-treat! Barking subsided, reserved only for unique profiles, then lessened to the point where I felt we could go to the (dog-friendly) mall. Stellar behavior inside! Pretty good all around...still gets a bit tense when people come flying round a corner at us, but I expect that and we're still working on it.

This whole time, Loki met everyone in my family. I live alone, but he's devoted to the extended family. If one of 'em (sister and kids, her husband, my folks) comes over, he's so happy to see them, he can't get out of his own way. My brother-in-law sometimes inspires submission-peeing in Loki, but the pup will still happily approach him and play. Meeting adults at my sister's or parents' house? One "who the **** are you?" woof and he's happy. With medium-sized kids, he doesn't even bother with the woof and just starts licking hands and nuzzling gently. One possibly-important note: At my sister's place, there are two other dogs. One of them is clearly in charge of the other (and Loki, when we visit).

We go to a dog park about twice a week. He gets plenty of exercise with me on long off-leash walks in the woods every day, but I want him to meet lots of other dogs. And he's beautiful with 'em...wrestle-play, chase-play, he loves it all! Largely ignores the people, but certainly doesn't mind a pat or two. Zero aggression.

Loki is now 8.5 months old (neutered at 4.5 months, by the way). Here's where things get sticky. A friend of mine dropped by. Pulled into the driveway on a motorcycle (which Loki'd seen plenty of in town) and Loki lost his mind. I don't mean he barked. I mean he Lost. His. Mind. 

Barking, lunging, snapping, gnashing teeth. He even accidentally nipped my leg a bit in an effort to get past me, but he clearly didn't intend to bite me; his eyes were on the visitor. I was holding the other end of the leash, but he didn't even know I existed right then. I tried to get his attention, calm him down, sit/down commands, anything. I finally had to put him in the house and visit outside.

Another friend, a week later. This one was supposed to stay overnight. Given the history, I had us all meet at my sister's place. Loki was cool. Happy to lick hands and get treats from my friend. We all get in the car to go home. One woof, then all good. At home, passable behavior, except every time my friend left the room and came in again, Loki offered a way-too-intent stare, easily corrected with an "Eh-eh. Come!" and we were okay.

Same friend came back two days later, and I thought I'd just leave a little bit of bacon in a bag for him to give (a leashed) Loki as he approached. Tossed by my friend at a distance, you know? Bark/lunge/snap...until the bacon started coming. Worked great as the distance was closing. Then Loki took treats from my friend's hand, all the way into the house. The peace lasted exactly as long as the bacon did. Then back to Cujo. Oy. There was no calming him this time. Had to take him to my parents' so my friend could stay over without (quite reasonable) fear.

Given that I'm no canine expert (and, as mentioned above, a bit of an idiot), I know I need professional help with my boy, so I'm in touch with an animal behaviorist in Binghamton (NY) for evaluation and training, but she can't see us until June. 

If anyone has experience with how to handle visitors and my pup in the interim, that'd be lovely. If anyone has experience with fear aggression and can tell me that this can be overcome with training and patience, please tell me what your experiences are...what did you do? What were the results? 

And if anyone can tell me that this is pretty much hopeless, I should hear that, too. Won't give up on the pup who's become such a tremendous part of my life without on helluva fight (and a boatload of training), but it's important that I listen to all input. 

Again, sorry for babbling...but any guidance you can offer would be tremendously appreciated. I know I've got a pretty terrific dog. But I also know I've got a pretty terrific dog with some issues which I have to handle, and handle effectively.

Thank you so much,

Adaliska (and Loki)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I sent you a PM.


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## Tessa99999 (Apr 16, 2010)

Wow! I know your pain more than you can know!!! My Addie is not nearly as awesome actually. We're also working through fear-based aggression. One suggestion I have that I've found that works a bit when meeting new people. When meeting new people I've learned it helps TONS when the territory is neutral. (I think you know this already.) But the real "magic" for us is to talk a walk. A short-ish 20-30 (Longer if your friends are willing) walk does wonders. I think walking builds trust, plus usually if your dog is walking they're too busy focusing on their feet and moving forward/keeping up to react. At the same time they're getting to calm down around the stranger and realize that they aren't really a thread.

I definitely suggest training. It's working wonders with Addie and I. We go to group training at a local (busy) PetSmart and it is doing amazing things. (Squirt bottles are also nice when reactions DO happen. This doesn't work with all dogs though, and can hinder progress with some fearful dogs. So use with caution and take note if your dog begins to shut down with the squirt bottle which isn't good. My Adders just shies away from it and immediate stops whatever she was doing.)


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i totally understand the frustration your dealing with i have a young male with similar issues.........i really do think professional guidence will help educate you on how to handle situations with him.......i also think constant exposure with people over and over again is a key, that with knowledge on how to handle him when he starts reacting.........alot of times when dogs react, its a learned behavior and its instinctual unless taught alternative behaviors.......with fear aggressive dogs, its black and white meaning you have to take over and make all their decisions for then, know their triggers and thresholds and forsee situations before it happens.....i would start teaching alot of focus work, working on Obedience etc these things can really help you in situations........don't be scared to give corrections if he is reacting, because he is taking over at that point and you have lost control.....this is where a professional person can help give you the tools to work with.......you can manage dogs like these with the right approach, yes, it might always be under the surface ready to errupt, but being a good leader and controlling things will help him to look to you for guidence before he reacts........its a real learning experience with dogs like these, i don't think most people are prepared to deal with special needs dogs and it takes time patience and the right guidence.......find a good trainer/behaviorist. have him evaluated and go accordingly..........working with a professional can give you the confidence to control things.......


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## lonestarag05 (Feb 28, 2011)

I hate to say it, but this thread terrifies me. I am bringing home my first GSD puppy at the end of this month and I am wondering how prevalent this type of development is with the breed. All ive been doing is telling everyone who asks what great dogs they can be.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

hopefully you won't have to deal with this issue, it shouldn't be part of this breeds temperment but it does happen, and you see more and more of it......sad, thats for sure.......genetics, poor breeding choices, and other circumstances contribute to it......biggest is genetics....... thats why really researching and doing your homework before getting a puppy is highly suggested, and even then there can be a genetic fluke.......


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## goatdude (Mar 3, 2009)

Just visited my vet today. Topic was "can meds help Ruby's aggressiveness". Well, meds along with a behavior training program (counter conditioning and desensitizing) is what we will be doing. The medication is Colmicalm, the training I have already been doing. Hopefully the meds work to even out the dogs moods so training time can be more productive. Speak with your vet. May be worth a try.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

in my opinion i would use meds as a last resort, most cases can be worked through with the right training and conditioning....i know alot of behviorists suggest meds i honestly think it for the owner not necessarily for the dog per say.......in other words the dog is medicated and low keyed so the owner is relaxed...........i also think alternative meds should be used before going to the hard core meds.......alot of times if you can take the edge off along with training and conditioning you can have the same results in alot of cases.........unless the dog is totally vicious and has some mental short comings the latter can be a successful plan.....
i think the biggest thing is to find out where the dog is coming from, watching, learning from experiences and putting together an individual training program.......
a good trainer and a determined owner is the key here........


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## amac_zeus (Jun 7, 2011)

Hi, first time poster here. I'm so glad I've found this website. I have a 5 mos old male GSD and we began training about 3 weeks ago. I've read a couple of books regarding GSD personalities and proper training. One thing you hear lots about is socialization - with other dogs and with other people. What you don't hear is how important that socialization is to occur at YOUR HOUSE or YOUR YARD. I've read five different "aggression" threads here and they all occured at the dogs home. Each case cited lots of socialization at parks, malls, walks, etc.., but not at the owner's house. GSD's are territorial, pack animals and are instinctively not welcoming to outsiders. This programming should start early on in a pups life. My breeder gave me the heads up and my trainer confirmed. Thus, I've had lots of different people over to the house to socialize and "normalize" visitors coming into our home. LONESTARAG, you have a great dog, just keep this in mind when you begin socializing.

IMO, your GSD may be playing the dominate role and feels a need to protect. Make sure you are the alpha in the house and your GSD should follow your lead. Also, neutralization is a concept my trainer preaches. Similar to the idea of desinsitizing, neutralizing your GSD's surroundings simply means they look to you for que on when to act. Simply put, they do not respond to distractions.

Don't loose hope. These actions can be corrected. I think you already know it's going to take time and patience. Keep us informed of your progress. Good luck. :hug:


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## DWP (Mar 31, 2011)

*A Greeting*

OK. Not an expert and feel free to ignore, laugh, gufaw. My two girls are in/out dogs. In with us, out with us. We have an acre back yard / shop area and people are over at least twice a week and more often than not, five or six times. I never let a new person come in the gate alone, I escort them in to the yard from the house. The girls give thm a bark and sniff and ignore them. After a few minutes they will make another sniff and slowly ask for attention with a look and sit in front of them. Afte a person has been over on a regular basis for a couple of months, they come to the gate and get my attention, which is usually the girls in a dead run, hackles up and big girl barks headed for the gate. I approach the gat, let thm in and greet with handshake or hug. As soon as the girls see the greeting they drop the hackles and because they know them by now, give a sniff and expect a little pet before running back to the shop or whatever they were doing before. Don't know why, but the greeting seems to be their "it's cool" trigger.


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## lonestarag05 (Feb 28, 2011)

amac_zeus said:


> Hi, first time poster here. I'm so glad I've found this website. I have a 5 mos old male GSD and we began training about 3 weeks ago. I've read a couple of books regarding GSD personalities and proper training. One thing you hear lots about is socialization - with other dogs and with other people. What you don't hear is how important that socialization is to occur at YOUR HOUSE or YOUR YARD. I've read five different "aggression" threads here and they all occured at the dogs home. Each case cited lots of socialization at parks, malls, walks, etc.., but not at the owner's house. GSD's are territorial, pack animals and are instinctively not welcoming to outsiders. This programming should start early on in a pups life. My breeder gave me the heads up and my trainer confirmed. Thus, I've had lots of different people over to the house to socialize and "normalize" visitors coming into our home. LONESTARAG, you have a great dog, just keep this in mind when you begin socializing.
> 
> IMO, your GSD may be playing the dominate role and feels a need to protect. Make sure you are the alpha in the house and your GSD should follow your lead. Also, neutralization is a concept my trainer preaches. Similar to the idea of desinsitizing, neutralizing your GSD's surroundings simply means they look to you for que on when to act. Simply put, they do not respond to distractions.
> 
> Don't loose hope. These actions can be corrected. I think you already know it's going to take time and patience. Keep us informed of your progress. Good luck. :hug:



Just to clarify, this is not my thread. My puppy isnt 5 weeks old yet haha still at the breeder, but good advice nonetheless.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Get a professional trainer, preferably of German Shepherds, evaluate your dog. It truly sounds like genetic issues and the responses given by you may indicate a potentially dangerous dog down the line even with training.
Short story, I was called in to evaluate this "beautiful 3 year old rescued German Shepherd. It was a couple in their fifties that was having very similar issues as you state. Especially when they went on walks or somebody came past the yard he would go bananas. I went to see the dog and went through a two hour assessment at home, then came back the next week and took the dog with them on a nice long walk. He was a fear biter of the highest order, with this wicked attachment to the wife, but tolerated the husband. So, I took the dog for three straight sessions and though I didn't have a problem with him(we did have to have a talk at one point), I could see that the level of insecurity, the size of the dog, and their inexperience was an accident waiting to happen. So I sat them down and explained to them that they needed to let him go and he probably needed to be PTS unless some really high end trainer would take him. The wife kept saying how good he was with me on leash, but I emphasized that his issues were not going to improve in their hands because the genetic base was too strong. The husband understood, but the wife had a friend who helped her adopt the dog, that worked with paws for life or some kind of org., blowin in her ear about how cruel that would be. They told me they appreciated everything, but their friend thought it was the past abuse and not genetics and he would get better. The husband took me aside the last time and said Mr. Anderson, I think you are right, but my wife adores this dog. 
About seven months later, I get a call from the wife telling me the dog had put her husband in the hospital with multiple bites. He just went off on him when my husband was on the couch and wanted him off. She was sorry she hadn't listened to me then, instead of her friend, because it was obvious I knew more than her friend in what I was explaining to them.
My point is you need to have someone assess the dog to give a good assessment of what may be in store down the road. You see its not just whether the dog is unfit, but also what must be factored in; as to whether you or your environment is capable of discharging what is necessary to fix these type cases. Sometimes you are, sometimes you arent, sometimes the dog is not too severe, sometimes the dog is.
This is why I am so hardcore about nerves and genetics, because there is so much genetic shyness in the breed.
Not saying this is your case, but when a dog goes so bonkers as to bite the owner in the course of acting out, it needs to be evaluated unless the owner is a trainer themself.JMO


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

OK, it is June. What it the report?


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

First I would *strongly* caution you in regards to your local "Dogmart's R Us". Unfortunatly the vast majority of "trainers" can maybe make an average pet dog sit, but that's where it seems to stop. Maybe not all of them, but many. Second were this my dog I would *NOT *be letting any strangers anywhere near him. Not even to feed a cookie, not even if it seems to be the dogs idea. All it takes is one bad move, however subtle it may be, and it could trigger the dog. That could be very, very bad. Third, my man Cliff knows his stuff. I strongly urge you to consider his recommendation. Fourth I really hope you get all this worked out. Good luck to you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

She did meet with a very good trainer.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Good for her. I hope she can get a handle on this.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Cliff is right, the best thing is to get a professional eval, then go from there.....

i have a fear bitter, who i have worked very hard with and have control over, though it could rear itself at anytime in the right situation, my job is to protect him from potential situations that he is making his own decisions.....but, he is great with my family absolutely no issues at home with him, if i had interfamily situations as Cliff discribed to me that is very abnormal and unfortunately in those cases there would be alot to consider for both the dog and the family's safety.......its a Very Huge responsibility keeping a dog that is potentially dangerous and unpredictable, not alot of people would want this responsibility..........its like having a retarded child, constant supervision..........


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## amac_zeus (Jun 7, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> ...... because there is so much genetic shyness in the breed.


Really? Could you provide more background on this statement? From what I've read, the GSD is a confident, working dog. From their past service roles as herders, to police dogs, to military and then search and rescue, assistance for blind, etc..., where does to shyness get inbred? What's more, the show quality breeders don't look for shyness. Shy confidence is an oxymoron.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think the shyness statement is about the "aloofness" of the breed. They generally don't like meeting new people and don't warm up to visitors like other breeds do. In extreme cases this becomes a shy dog, or even more extreme a fearful dog. I'm not going to get into the show quality breeder thing, but I've seen plenty of show breeders that only care about the look of the dog and actually perpetuate the shyness problem by keeping their dog away from other dogs due to playing hazzards. I'm sure there are plenty that don't look for shyness, but their main concern is the confirmation of the dog, not really the personality.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Aloofness in the breed is not a problem. It is also not "shyness". Shyness is a fear of something.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

amac_zeus said:


> Really? Could you provide more background on this statement? From what I've read, the GSD is a confident, working dog. From their past service roles as herders, to police dogs, to military and then search and rescue, assistance for blind, etc..., where does to shyness get inbred? What's more, the show quality breeders don't look for shyness. Shy confidence is an oxymoron.


Careful breeding would make sure that GSDs remain confident working dogs, suitable for all the purposes you've named. Careless breeding does not. Unfortunately, being the second most popular breed in the US, there is a LOT of careless breeding going on.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think shyness can easily be misconstrued by someone as aloofness and therefore can be a wanted trait, especially in a guard dog for someone who doesn't quite understand what a guard dog should be and just wants a dog that will attack/bite anyone that comes on the premises. I never said aloofness was a problem, but the lines between those can get very blurry just like the line between fear and protection which there are more than a handful of threads about.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't have any idea what you are trying to say but I highly doubt Cliff misconstrued aloofness vs. shyness. In fact, I'll bet my next paycheck on that. It's more likely you are misunderstanding what he wrote, or assumed you knew what he means, and I was stating my opinion of aloofness vs. shyness.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I was answering amac's question, I completely get that Cliff knows what he's talking about, I was just explaining why there is a shyness in the breed, its most likely an extention of aloofness from bad breeding. So go ahead and keep your paycheck.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well I apparently need to drink more coffee. I apologize. I got stuck on your sentence of "I think the shyness statement is about the "aloofness" of the breed.", which refers back to Cliff's post.

And I missed this sentence..."In extreme cases this becomes a shy dog, or even more extreme a fearful dog." 

So I now understand what you were saying after reading your post a few times and yes, I do agree that people mistake shyness for aloofness. I don't agree that the shyness comes from the aloofness though. I think shyness comes from bad nerves, which I think comes from bad brain wiring, not so much temperament which is what I feel "aloofness" is. Weak nerves, i.e. shyness, makes dogs more reactive rather than more aloof so I, in my limited experience, can't make the connection on how shyness can come from the opposite of aloofness. Perhaps it's all a matter of semantics when we put it in written language. 

To Amac Zeus - While "shy confidence" is indeed an oxymoron, that isn't what Cliff said. He said "genetic shyness" which is the opposite of a confident GSD.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah thats the way I meant it, not that it is developed from it biologically but that the connection the person/breeder makes is incorrect. They see their dog as aloof, but it's really just shy. It's definately bad nerves, but at the time of the breeding the person isn't knowledgable enough to dissern between the two. So I think you have it correct, its not that shyness comes from the aloofness in the dog, its that we as people mistake one for the other and breed a very shy dog thinking its aloof.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

from my experience with my fear bitter, unstable male, it can still show up in the best of breeders and breedings................so, don't think you can totally avoid it by picking a good breeder and breeding, i never expected a fear bitter and an unstable dog from my last breeder/breeding..........it happens!  or maybe i wasn't thourough enough in researching the genetic line.............its weaknesses etc.......although isn't that why you go to a good breeder? they should be able to eval their pups and know what they have got before selling them.......and if they don't know what they have for temperaments then they haven't spent enough time with their pupsand or haven't spent enough time and research on putting together the makings of a stable proven line, so that being the case you might as well go to a BYB and take your chances.......


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## amac_zeus (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> To Amac Zeus - While "shy confidence" is indeed an oxymoron, that isn't what Cliff said. He said "genetic shyness" which is the opposite of a confident GSD.


My point exactly. I believe all GSD's are innately confident. After reading his post, I coined the phrase. :shocked:

The shyness may result from lack of owners awareness of the puppy going through one of it's two fear periods, and not properly addressing the fear. My 5 mos old is in his second fear period and has begun to bark at other dogs, with the hair on the back of his neck standing up = fear barking. I am working with my trainer to address this. It's perfectly natural. 

As pack leader, owner and parent to my puppy, it's my responsibility to instill the confidence by building on his successes to become the confident puppy I want. The same goes for my two legged children. As a parent, I can reinforce the positive or harp on the negative. The choice of parenting/training will have a profound impact on the outcome of my child. Point is, with proper awareness, you can head off any wrong turns your pup may want to take and train your GSD into the confident dog you want. 

As for the OP, I think she can train the fear out and teach her dog to become more accepting of outsiders. I don't believe her dog is shy or unstable. Problem is, she adopted and wasn't the one to address the early fear periods. She may not know the dogs history of upbringing in the first 3 mos. Very important time when lots of imprinting takes place.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No. Not all GSD's are innately confident. I'm sorry but that is just not true at all. Some have genetically bad nerves. Genetic shyness is from bad breeding. This has nothing to do with pack leader alpha theories. It's purely simple genetics.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> No. Not all GSD's are innately confident. I'm sorry but that is just not true at all. Some have genetically bad nerves. Genetic shyness is from bad breeding. This has nothing to do with pack leader alpha theories. It's purely simple genetics.


Sad, but true.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> No. Not all GSD's are innately confident. I'm sorry but that is just not true at all. Some have genetically bad nerves. Genetic shyness is from bad breeding. This has nothing to do with pack leader alpha theories. It's purely simple genetics.


Vert true!

I wonder how much of the temperament of many of the dogs we see today is geneticaly based and how much is environment. Some is obviously genes, but I think that some is just as obviously the environment the dog is lucky (or unlucky) enough to enjoy! 

I guess we would need a study of identical twins to be sure!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There are definately dogs that get messed up by the owner not knowing what they're doing. But you are kidding yourself if you think you can "fix" or "raise" any dog properly. I've owned a dog for 8 months, and in the 8 months I have read enough on this forum from people that have had dogs for 30 years and still run into bad genes that they can't do anything about. These are people that have titled dogs in Sch3 and have trained SAR and service dogs, and yet they run into them just as much as the rest of us.

Like it was said earlier, there are plenty of "perfect" GSDs that match the profile on the AKC website, but no matter the amount of titling and testing, even those dogs produce subpar pups. That's just genetics.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I don't have any idea what you are trying to say but I highly doubt Cliff misconstrued aloofness vs. shyness. In fact, I'll bet my next paycheck on that. It's more likely you are misunderstanding what he wrote, or assumed you knew what he means, and I was stating my opinion of aloofness vs. shyness.


The difference between aloofness(good!) and shyness(bad) is one of those things that may be hard to define but easy to see in an actual dog.

To me, the visual difference is this - if someone comes up to pet the aloof dog, he will accept it with no reaction - neither wanting more or reacting to get more petting and showing that; nor by trying to escape the petter by moving behind the handler or just pulling away.

And, of course, in neither case should the dog show any aggression to a friendly non threatening stranger.

That is what I would want in a GSD - AND if I had to choose one of them - I would definetly choose a dog who is obviously not aloof but perhaps too overtly friendly (which is what I have been "blessed"(?) with in many of our GSD's). A shy GSD is to me a pitiful dog and I would never want one, but admire those folks who have one and work very hard to give the dog a good life! There are a number of these "soft" GSD's in our group of GSD owners who meet every Saturday for training and some socialization.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

amac_zeus said:


> My point exactly. I believe *all GSD's are innately confident.* After reading his post, I coined the phrase. :shocked:............................


I would have to politely say that in my opinion, this is definetly not the case. They SHOULD be, but sadly many are not. Many GSD's are spoiled by poor upbringing and lack of training but some, no matter what the owners do will still turn out to be shy and/or fearful. 

And of course, there are many varying degrees of "shyness" - some dogs seem to live in internal terror while others have a much lower degree of fear of new things and people.

Of course the self confident dog can also be a real handful to manage and train, and esp. to live with. Our current 3.5 yo male falls into this category. The leader (long time big breeder) of our Saturday group of GSD owners that gets together every week for training has told me that she is convinced that "he wants to take over the entire group and considers himself to be the pack leader". His behaviorist has called him "the most self confident dog" of any breed that she has ever seen. And she is someone who used to think all GSD's are shy fearful dogs because of the ones that she had worked with before she met ours. 

I don't believe that he has ever backed up from anything in his life except for the first two weeks in his first puppy class when he was a bit intimidated by two older puppies there - but by the third week he was pushing both them around in a good natured puppy sort of way. And that has continued to this day! 

A most interesting dog and a good representative of the breed.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

If someone were to have a totally stable GSD, i honestly think you could make all kinds of training mistakes and they would bounce back because of the solid nerves, so for a dog like that inviroment wouldn't scar them for life..........you take a weaker nerved dog in the wrong inviroment and you have just multiplied the pre-existing problem in 10 fold......

i don't totally buy the inviroment thing in alot of cases, its purely an individual thing.......i think its easier to blame it on inviroment than to admit there are some genetic issues...

again, i will say a good breeder should know their pups well before selling them to appropriate homes..........of course, there really isn't a market for weak nerved dogs, that isn't something we all seek out.........


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## Rexy (Jun 4, 2011)

debbiebrown said:


> If someone were to have a totally stable GSD, i honestly think you could make all kinds of training mistakes and they would bounce back because of the solid nerves, so for a dog like that inviroment wouldn't scar them for life..........you take a weaker nerved dog in the wrong inviroment and you have just multiplied the pre-existing problem in 10 fold......
> 
> i don't totally buy the inviroment thing in alot of cases, its purely an individual thing.......i think its easier to blame it on inviroment than to admit there are some genetic issues...
> 
> again, i will say a good breeder should know their pups well before selling them to appropriate homes..........of course, *there really isn't a market for weak nerved dogs, *that isn't something we all seek out.........


It's actually alarming the amount of working line breeders in Australia where I live who breed what I believe are weak nerved dogs passed off as having extreme sharpness and civil drive from what I have seen are fear biters. Many like dogs that light up fast on the end of the leash wanting to bite everyone in a passive environment. Stranger and dog aggression are genetic traits some of these breeders seek where some in these circle of cowboys condemn my confident working line dog having a weakness in nerve because he is not stranger and dog aggressive in the slightest?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Good point Rexy.........and your right, there is that circle of breeders that are breeding for particular personality traits, might be ok for border patrol dogs that don't have to be a social dog, but for the general public and a sport dog it stinks.......every breeder has their own reasons for breeding what they breed, one thing that i don't like is somehow these dogs are being sold as family pets, and to me that is a very irresponsible act on the breeders part........this thread is starting to sound like another catagory now............


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## Rexy (Jun 4, 2011)

debbiebrown said:


> Good point Rexy.........and your right, there is that circle of breeders that are breeding for particular personality traits, might be ok for border patrol dogs that don't have to be a social dog, but for the general public and a sport dog it stinks.......every breeder has their own reasons for breeding what they breed, one thing that i don't like is somehow these dogs are being sold as family pets, and to me that is a very irresponsible act on the breeders part........this thread is starting to sound like another catagory now............


When they sell these dogs for family pets and the aggressive traits unfold, they blame the owners, lack of socialisation, incorrect training, no leadership role etc etc is why their dog wants to bite everyone? I think these type of dogs are favoured as an instant security dog without training, but I seriously question their nerve stability and are good for a junk yard dog only IMHO.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Yep, that can be the case, it doesn't do much for the breed standard......Balance should be the aim in breeding a product that can fit in a family inviroment and also have the nerve for for any work that may be required......

Alot of these weaker nerved dogs would fit better in a pack of wolves than in a people inviroment, sad but true..........


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also think having a good assessment from a non partial person who knows what they are doing is very important.

Understandably, everyone loves their dogs, faults or not, but, we also have to be non objective when it comes to faults especially ones that could later on be potentially dangerous to someone. 

Dogs aren't born "perfect", we train, shape the best we can, and definately that can be messed up , BUT a confident, stable/sound dog, can normally bounce back from the mistakes we make. You can change genetics, depending on the 'fault', some can be managed, but those genes are always right under the skin.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

True Diane, most of the general public are just not prepared to handle a weaker nerved dog, even the best trainers can be challenged with issues pertaining to this fault........as said, in alot of cases it can be managed with the right guidence, but in most cases you always have to be constantly aware of things and control the inviroment....most aren't willing to have to be on guard 24-7, it certainly puts a crimp in ones lifestyle.....i give GREAT applause and respect for anyone that takes the bull by the horns and follows through in helping guide a dog like this, there isn't alot of folks out there that would........


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