# No Drive?!



## CAB (May 18, 2008)

My dog, from purely showlines, is a real hassle to train because he loses interest in the toy after a few minutes. I then have to drag it around the ground to get his attention again but then loses interest once we start the heeling. I've been playing with him for months now but he can't stay focused on the toy. When we train at the club I generally keep the toy in my pocket because he's not at all interested in it and when he is it's short lived.

Any advice on what I should do?


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

Try food. Use special treats just for your training sessions - the stinkier the better.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

All you can do is bring out every ounce of drive the dog possesses, but that will still be limited by his genetics. You can't put drive into a dog that doesn't have it naturally.

Keep sessions short and sweet. Stop before the dog loses interest. For some dogs, this may mean 2 minutes is the most you can get. But quitting before their drive and interest wanes, while they still want more, helps bring out more drive through frustration for future sessions.

Back-tying a dog and teasing him, giving him the bite on the toy only when he's really in drive for it, helps teach him to maximize his drive. Many dogs work better to learn to work in drive when the handler uses a dog "fishing pole" rather than holding the toy in hand. This allows for quicker and more jerky movements of the prey object, which illicits more drive, and also keeps the play more away from the handler so there is less danger of the dog being intimidated by the handler looming over him or feeling inhibited about trying to take the toy from the handler.

You also have to go with what is a higher motivator for the dog. For some dogs this may be a tug, for others a rag, for others a leash, for others a ball. Try different things to find what he prefers and is more willing to work for. While obedience for a toy is preferrable in many ways, you have to work with what the dog brings to the table. If he doesn't have the drive for a toy, switching to food or praise as a motivator/reward may make for better training.


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

Thanks guys. I think a reason might be that there is too much control at our club. The TD is warped in his opinions. He doesn't believe in a prong, only a choker. When we do the send out we make the dogs down, walk out and put the toy down, walk back and get the dog to sit then send them out and down them just before the toy. IMO this is far to much of a drive killer for low drive beginner dogs? 

I'm currently using a kong so maybe switching to a ball or food will make a difference. Is it possible to make a tug/rag easily? 

After about 2 hours of training he has no interest in the toy at all. The one breeder does use the fishing pole but as soon as he puts it away the dog's drive dives.


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

What about a squeaker toy? 

In my opinion 2 hours of training is much too long in any case. The only sessions I have been to that are that long and that succeed have lots of play breaks for the dogs in between the training portions. I'm not surprised your dog is discouraged - I would be too.

We were going to a club that had forceful training sessions, and we ALL hated going. So we quit - and went to a place that made training FUN. The dog looked forward to it and so did we. If the training is a chore, in my opinion it will not succeed.

I have been told that training attention span for a normal dog is 15 minutes.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Craig88
> After about 2 hours of training he has no interest in the toy at all.


2 hours of actual training? Or 2 hours at the club training sessions, but during which he only gets out for a few minutes at a time? Which is it?

I hope you mean the later, because 2 hours straight of training is insane. A dog isn't going to maintain drive or attention for that long. Good training is about quality of the time spent, not quantity of time just drilling exercise after exercise. That will bore even the most drivey dog to tears. 10-20 minutes at one time is plenty. With a lower drive dog, or younger dog, sessions must be kept much shorter than that.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Just wanted to add that since you are using a Kong and he looses interest, I would try a ball or tug like was already said. I have had several dogs since Kongs were invented and NONE of them have liked Kongs but would play with /work for something else.


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

There is usually about 15 mins of socialisation( working around in a circle and then all coming in close then backing out etc) then we split off into the actual training. There is mainly heeling, down/sit stays, fetching etc. Every so often we reward the dog with the treat, although he's not too interested and generally gives a weak bite. After this session of roughly 30-40 mins we do the IPO work with heel patterns and the down/sit in motion. Then do some send outs and more rewarding only once the dog downs. I really think I should forget about all this drive killing obedience we do in the send outs such as downing when he finally gets to his toy.

After this we then do the bite work which is usually no more than 5 mins. It starts at 8 and the training finishes at about 10. Then the bite work is done sometime after this depending on where my name is on the list. He's obedient most of the time, as he would be on a long walk, but there is no focus and attention. 

I will go out and buy a rubber ball on rope tomorrow. Is a rag just a piece of material or is there something special about it?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

2 red flags for me when you describe your general training session.

First, that is WAY too long.
Second, if you always follow the same pattern of exercises with the dog, that is WAY too predictable for the dog and thus, boring.

Dogs thrive on short, energetic sessions and on variety. Doing the same thing time and time again will sap a dog's energy and enthusiasm because it's too predictable. Training sessions should be much shorter, and things need to be mixed up in order to keep the dog interested.

For obedience, we never work our dogs more than 10-20 minutes at a time, and we never structure sessions the same way from one to the next. One session we work on heeling and out of motions, the next session retrieves and send outs, next session recalls and retrieves, etc... Mix it up for variety. Don't try to train all components of all exercises all the time.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Craig88Every so often we reward the dog with the treat, although he's not too interested and generally gives a weak bite.


I must not be understanding something here... what does a treat (food) have to do with biting something? 



> Originally Posted By: Craig88 Is a rag just a piece of material or is there something special about it?


Just a rag... can be an old towel, torn off piece of a pair of blue jeans, piece of a burlap sack... doesn't matter.


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

I am wondering whether there is a different centre you might wish to go to? I believe that continuing with this system will completely de-motivate both your dog and yourself. It's happened to me, and it's frustrating and unnecessary.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Take a step back and just work on drive building and forget all of this other stuff as it's being done WAY too soon. If he does not have the drive and attitude while playing you will never get the picture you want in OB. And completely throw the heeling patterns out of the window. My dog has never done the entire BH pattern yet, and will not until the day of the trial (this weekend). Now, he has done all of the pieces of it, but not the exact pattern. I am walking the pattern all week on my own, but if the dog can heel he can heel regardless of pattern. You job is to be FUN and INTERESTING and UNPREDICTABLE which results in your dog always staying engaged.

Take a look at Leerburg's "building drive and focus" DVD. It is not a complete training guide or anything, but for you in your situation it would be a great resource and will teach you a game that will build his drive while laying the foundation for obedience that is actually in drive (you know, the state of CRAZINESS that your trainer says is too hard to work with).


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Craig88Every so often we reward the dog with the treat, although he's not too interested and generally gives a weak bite.
> ...


Sorry, meant toy not treat. The more knowledge i've gained, the more I question our training each week.

I've been trying to play with him a lot with minimum obedience to increase drive but I think the correct reward(toy/treat) is needed first. I'll buy the rubber ball tomorrow. I'm hopefully going to get that video from a member at the other club i've been going to. They are the GSD club and until i've a gsd I wont be able to train there. 

The only useful parts about this club is that it's good for networking, possible studding, getting my dog used to being around people and dogs and doing protection training although after about 8 months he's still not on the sleeve and still has shallow bites with not much barking. Maybe it's just genetics...


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

My trainer also says that we should never praise the dog when he's doing a down because that's an inferior position. After all the nonsense he's been talking i'n not sure what to make of this. Is this true?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Craig88My trainer also says that we should never praise the dog when he's doing a down because that's an inferior position. After all the nonsense he's been talking i'n not sure what to make of this. Is this true?


No, that's not true. When a dog does well, he should be praised and rewarded. Period.

Sure, a down is a submissive position, but I don't see what that has to do with whether or not the dog should be praised. And through training, the dog should come to view it as merely a position like any other, not an act of submission.

Actually, if one is going to use the argument about it being an "inferior position" in relation to praise, I would think the opposite would apply and he should be praised for taking such an uncomfortable position when asked to. He needs to be comfortable in the down, and praise is part of achieving that. 

This trainer is.... weird.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Chris as always has made some great points. 

I am not a certified trainer, but I have worked with and taught some classes. What you current trainer is doing is not helping to bring out your pups drive but doing every thing to shut it down. I always reward the down more than I do a sit, why because I have seen too many dogs trained with methods that weren't happy for the dog, these dogs always make me cringe when they down because it is slow and agonizing. I want a fast and happy down, I want the dog to know that it is a happy position and command for the dog.

Try different toys and food reward for the pup bringing the toy back. Do short throws and some longer throws. Mix in a little OB work with the ball playing, some quick sits and quick downs. Mix things up and have fun.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildNo, that's not true. When a dog does well, he should be praised and rewarded. Period.
> 
> Sure, a down is a submissive position, but I don't see what that has to do with whether or not the dog should be praised. And through training, the dog should come to view it as merely a position like any other, not an act of submission.
> 
> ...


I cannot even put into words how much I agree with everything said above. If there is somewhere else to train, don't walk RUN. If not, your objective should be to hear your trainer telling you your dog is nuts and out of control (in drive).


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

I just trained him now with some food and he was so much better. Everything was just fast in comparison to his usual slow movement and i had his attention in heeling for much longer than any toy has ever held it. 

The only hassle with food is that it takes a while to make and i need to make sure he doesn't get fed breakfast, which is quite hard with my mother who thinks i'm being cruel... 

I definitly think that the trainer has spent 20 years thinking about the cash he can make from breeding rather than worrying about learning training methods. He also says that I JUST need to learn how to play properly with the toy so my dog will be interested.

I'm going to give him another session later on today with the new ball i'm about to buy and have as little control as possible and see how much effort he puts in.


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

Your dog doesn't need to be HUNGRY for training. Feed him breakfast. Then train him with some great smelly treats - pieces of hotdog, smelly cheese, something he really likes.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ddYour dog doesn't need to be HUNGRY for training. Feed him breakfast. Then train him with some great smelly treats - pieces of hotdog, smelly cheese, something he really likes.


Some dogs do need to be hungry, and skip a meal to really want to work for food. But I would definitely try the extra special, stinky food first, before resorting to making him skip a meal. It may have high enough value for him as it is, without him being super hungry. Or he may need to skip a meal, or eat only half a meal, earlier in the day to be willing to work for the food. You'll have to try different things to figure out what works best for the individual dog.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

If there is any issue with drive at all, I would NOT feed the dog. If he eats his meal while training, great. He works for his food. Hunger can help increase a dogs prey drive to his genetic limit. Yes, I know the ball or tug is not a real rabbit, but drive is a primal thing and a hungry canine chases prey harder in the wild.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Just because a dog lacks prey drive (which may or many not truly be the case since it's obvious from the advice of Craig's trainer that the work done with the dog thus far has not been conducive to brining out drive), doesn't mean he lacks food drive.

Just as some dogs need to be really hungry to work well for food, other dogs need to NOT be hungry, or only somewhat hungry, or they get too high in drive, hectic and snappy for the food and they can't work well. It depends on the individual dog, which is why I suggested to experiment with different types of training treats, and experiment with feeding him before, not feeding him before, feeding him a small amount before, etc.. to figure out what works best for that individual dog.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDHunger can help increase a dogs *prey drive* to his genetic limit.


I was only referring to prey drive, not food drive. From what he just described, the dog has good food drive.


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

He definitly trains best when he's hungry. I bought the rubber ball and attached a rope on to it and he seems to enjoy it although he always bites the rope and not the ball. I think food will be my best bet because when I had the ball out as well as food he was so much more interested in the food than the ball. 

I went down to the gsd club tonight and was astounded at how much drive and motivation those young dogs(1.2 years I think) have! They go absolutely crazy to get the ball and if I didn't know any better would think they were being viscious to its handler. The one is quite out of control and occasionaly bites her handler but that's just because the handler doesn't have the ability to smack it when it does bite.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

He will learn to target better. His desire for the ball will increase as well with time as long as you make proper movement and motivation.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Craig88 They go absolutely crazy to get the ball and if I didn't know any better would think they were being viscious to its handler. The one is quite out of control and occasionaly bites her handler but that's just because the handler doesn't have the ability to smack it when it does bite.


This is what a dog working in drive should look like. The occasional bite to the handler does happen, though most often because the handler is slow, dog isn't being careful or hasn't learned proper targeting, or both. 

No reason to smack the dog for it though.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Look for other things your dog might be interested in. For example, my GSD has no time for tug. Actually failed SCH training because he would just walk away and lay down. 

Focus on what your dog likes, swimming, running, chasing, whatever works.


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> Craig88 said:
> ...


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Craig88
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> ...


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildTraining is supposed to be a partnership between dog and handler, not a confrontation or a master/slave relationship.












Mind if I borrow this?
I have an acquaintance that I'm having a "discussion" regarding the whole alpha roll 'thing' and perhaps what you just said might make her understand what I'm trying to say.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Be my guest.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Barb, for that discussion with your friend, check out the article posted at the top of this thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=719180


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildTime and time again I've seen the outcome of this sort of attitude, and very often it only escalates the behavior and leads to true handler aggression because the dog has come to expect a physical confrontation from the handler, and that's exactly what happens. Self fulfilling prophecy.


The only thing meeting aggression from a dog with more aggression from the handler teaches the dog is that next time he has to up the ante and fight harder. The best response is one of total neutrality, and withholding success. Now, putting that into practice is much harder than saying it since your natural response would likely be to either fight or pull back. I just went through this.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> 
> The only thing meeting aggression from a dog with more aggression from the handler teaches the dog is that next time he has to up the ante and fight harder.


Very good way of phrasing it, John.


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## TNGSD (Feb 15, 2008)

Here's Haley and Radar. The video quality is really bad but I think you can make out that she is using the ball to work on some basic commands with Radar. He is 4.5 months old so we keep it fun and mostly just play. The ball spinning she is doing in the beginning had nothing to do with training... she's only 10 years old and likes to play with the ball herself! She is quite the dedicated little trainer!


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

I agree with what you are saying Chris but IMO there needs to be punishment when the dog disobeys or disrespects its master. I don't advocate fighting with it but a correction on the pinch collar or a pop on the nose to let it know that a certain type of behaviour wont be accepted. 

My dog fortunately respects me and most likely is not a naturally agressive or socially agressive dog so when I correct him for not downing he never gives me any hassles unlike another dog in our class that growls when forced down and usually always breaks its down and bolts. The trainer actually tried correcting my dog awhile back and received some vicious growling and nearly a bite, which is fine IMO. 

What I'm trying to get at is the lady who's gsd often bites her is too soft on the dog and as a result the dog takes advantage of her and zaps her. I'm sure this would not be a problem if she was more strict on the dog; not necessarily bopping it but just enforcing a strong correction when the dog bites her for no good reason.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Craig88What I'm trying to get at is the lady who's gsd often bites her is too soft on the dog and as a result the dog takes advantage of her and zaps her. I'm sure this would not be a problem if she was more strict on the dog; not necessarily bopping it but just enforcing a strong correction when the dog bites her for no good reason.


We are getting into things here that are beyond a web board discussion. Many times a dog redirects in this type of situation because of frustration, improper movement from the handler (and therefore not aggression) or frustration from the handler which will change certain dogs attitude very quickly. It's impossible to tell over the Internet. Give the wrong dog a "pop on it's nose for disobeying his master" and it could get very ugly very quickly. We need to understand that we train for our ego's, and our dog's performance is only a mirror reflection of what we have put into him.


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

I understand what you are saying Zeus and from what i've heard from the experienced people at my club that have seen the dog working and know what is going on first hand recommend a stern correction for the dog. I'm still very new so i will naturally take their advice as they've had years of experience and titled their dogs in sch3.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Craig88I agree with what you are saying Chris but IMO there needs to be punishment when the dog disobeys or disrespects its master.


Perhaps. But let me ask this... WHY would a dog disobey or disrespect it's handler? What is in it for the dog? When he obeys, good things happen (food, treats, praise, play). When he disobeys, bad things happen (correction). Dogs are very simple creatures at heart. They will always repeat behaviors that have brought success in the past, and avoid behaviors that brought negative consequences. They don't have any complicated motivations... they merely do what they believe will earn them the things they want. So why would a dog choose disobedience, knowing it will deny him what he wants and likely bring about something he doesn't want?

Answer: he won't. Yes, on the rare occasion the dog may disobey, but usually the reason behind that isn't obstinance but rather he sees it would be beneficial to him NOT to obey in that situation. In other words, the potential reward for disobedience is stronger than the reward for obedience, or consequence for disobedience. 

When this happens, it's generally the handler's fault. The handler either has not properly motivated the dog, or has placed the dog in a situation or amidst distractions that are above the dog's ability to work in at that stage of training. When training is done RIGHT, with the handler possessing the higest value reward for the dog, and the dog understanding that his obedience earns that, things go rather smoothly and the dog isn't likely to give the handler the "big paw".

Another common cause for "disobedience" is confusion on the dogs part. Handlers are often very quick to jump on the assumption that the dog is beind disobedient, when in reality he is confused. Dogs make mistakes, don't clearly hear commands, or when any of the zillion factors in a training session are different from before (different environment, different body language or tone of voice from the handler) it can lead to the dog being confused about what is being asked. No matter how many times he's done "sit" before, if for some reason he seems to forget "sit" on any given training day, 99% of the time it's not because he's being a prick and deciding to blow the handler off. It's because he's confused. Is it fair to correct a dog for confusion? Not in my mind. That is the handler punishing the dog for what is actually his (the handler's) fault.

Same for lack of respect. If the dog doesn't respect the handler (and IMO what is construed as disobedience is very, very rarely a lack of respect, no matter how quickly people like to assume it is), again who's fault is that? The dog's? Or the handler who didn't build a proper relationship of trust and respect with the dog? And if the dog doesn't respect the handler, is the handler going to be able to beat respect into the dog? No. It doesn't work that way. It's just going to further destroy the dog's respect and trust for the handler, and replace it with fear.



> Originally Posted By: Craig88
> My dog fortunately respects me and most likely is not a naturally agressive or socially agressive dog so when I correct him for not downing he never gives me any hassles unlike another dog in our class that growls when forced down and usually always breaks its down and bolts. The trainer actually tried correcting my dog awhile back and received some vicious growling and nearly a bite, which is fine IMO.
> 
> What I'm trying to get at is the lady who's gsd often bites her is too soft on the dog and as a result the dog takes advantage of her and zaps her. I'm sure this would not be a problem if she was more strict on the dog; not necessarily bopping it but just enforcing a strong correction when the dog bites her for no good reason.


Well, maybe this dog is one of the very rare ones that is truly handler aggressive, disrespectful, and more or less crazy. But I'd still place money on the likelihood that this is an issue that was created by the handler, and not because she's too soft, but because she has always met the dog's aggression with further aggression of her own. It's a somewhat natural thing to do really, and thus a common mistake. First, when a dog gets nasty our inclination is to protect ourselves by going into our own version of defense drive, and fight back. Second, it can also be natural to think that by providing a strong negative consequence for the behavior we will cause the dog not to choose that behavior. Sometimes that works, more often it just escalates the aggression.

Let me tell as story of a similar situation to help illlustrate.

Last fall I went down to trial at friend's SchH club out of state. Sunday after the trial, the judge hung around to do a bit of training and somewhat of an impromptu seminar. One of the club members, with a 2yo bitch from our breeding, was having problems with the dog outing the toy in obedience, and handler aggression over outing the toy. She asked the judge to give her some pointers. This was the first time I'd heard of this issue with the dog, and knowing the dogs and bloodlines as I do (and owning a littermate) I had suspicions about what was causing this (pretty much what I wrote above) so when she got the dog out to work with the judge, I had my eyes glued to the field.

Brings dog out, plays some tug, locks up the tug and asks the dog for the out, and the dog *immediately* starts snarling at her, but still holding the tug. She gives the dog a harsh pinch collar correction, while repeating out in a very harsh voice, dog lets go of the toy and lunges for her hand. Repeat a few times. So the judge steps in, and much the same scenario ensues. Only instead of correct her with the pinch collar, he hangs her, preventing her from biting him and choking her off the toy. A very commonly practiced attempt to deal with this sort of situation, and not a surprising one from a European old school trainer.

After beating my head soundly against the nearest tree, I stepped in before this could escalate by merely asking if I could give it a try. Judge looks at me like I'm nuts, but with handler's permission he hands over the now gasping dog and toy. I drop the leash (don't need it), tease the dog with the toy and we have a nice little game of tug. Thank God this is a hard dog would was more than willing to reengage in drive and play with me despite what had happened a minute ago.

So we play a bit, and then I lock up, and ask for the out. Not surprisingly she immediately starts to snarl while still holding the toy. I just ignored that. And rather than grab the leash or collar, I just laid my left hand flat under her chin while still holding the tug with my right hand, and using some light backwards and upwards pressure guided her into a sit. And I waited. The look on her face was pure confusion when I did NOT give her the fight she was expecting, or react to her snarling in any way. So we sat there for a minute, me just lightly holding the tug with my hand under her chin, showing no emotion. Her facial expression changing from one of fear and aggression over the fight she expected, to outright confusion, eventually to relaxing. Guess she thought just sitting there with both of us holding it wasn't all that bad, and certainly better than what she expected when I had asked for the out. Now that she was relaxed and calm, I asked for the out again. She immediately tensed and started snarling again, so we just waited a bit longer until she'd relaxed again. On the 3rd out command, her eyes started to squint and I could see her fighting her natural reaction to start snarling again, but she didn't. Instead, with an expression of confusion but also a little bit of a light bulb, she very tentatively let go of the toy.. and was immediately rewarded with a happy release and me coming alive with the toy to play again.

Next time I locked up and asked for the out, there was no snarling. She didn't let go either, so we waited again and a few moments later I asked her again to out, and she did, though tentatively. Another big party and play session as a reward. Next time I locked up and asked for the out, she popped right off, tail wagging, ears up, happily looking forward to the play session she expected as reward for the out. I worked her several more times that day, and every time I got a nice, clean, happy out without a hint of "handler aggression".

Why?
Am I some miracle working dog whisperer? No.
Did she respect me more than the judge or her handler? Well, now she probably does because to her I'm sure I seem much more sane and predictable, making me more fun and more worth listening to. But at the start of this of course she didn't. She doesn't even know me. She was 2 years old and the last time I'd seen her previously she was 8 weeks.

She did it because it was in her best interest to do so. Fun things happened when she outed. So why not out? And when I showed her that I had no interest in getting in a fight with her, she was happy about that. She didn't want to fight either, she just wanted to have fun and play and train. But she'd been well taught to expect a fight.

Had I met her aggression head on with some of my own, like everyone else was doing, I'd have gotten bitten too. And it just would have cemented in her head that yes indeed, the handler is going to pick a fight with her every time over the out, so she'd better be ready for that fight and be ready to get in the first blow. No doubt, as is the case with most situations like this, she's been hoping that her initial display would scare the handler off and make them back down so the fight didn't happen. Dogs don't like fighting with their handlers, but if the handler teaches the dog to expect it and shows them time and time again that is exactly what will happen, the dog fights with the handler.. because that is what they were taught.

To me this isn't rocket science. It's simply understanding the dog's motivations, how they think and why they do what they do, and recognizing how WE affect their behavior for good or ill. This whole situation was pretty depressing to me, made even moreso by the looks of complete wonder on the faces of the dog's handler (who's been training SchH a lot longer than I have), an experienced SV judge and trainer, and all of the club members. The fact that they thought they'd witnessed some miracle when she'd happily out without a hint of aggression is just really, really depressing and shows how widespread the belief that this is a dog problem (rather than a handler problem), the philosophy of trying to beat that type of behavior out of the dog, and a general lack of understanding of why it happens and that WE create it, has become.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)




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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Thanks, Jean.









Fortunately, I did head home that weekend with a bit of hope in the knowledge that at least some people are as trainable as their dogs. There was a lot of discussion after the events, and I know at least some of the club members started seeing things a bit differently. And the judge and I discussed it quite a bit too, with me explaining why I did what I did, and he admited that in 30 years of training he'd never thought of it that way, but it made sense and the results spoke for themselves.

A good example of why it's important for people to get out, train at different places and with different people and get exposed to new ideas and different ways of doing things and different perspectives on training, because we can all get stuck in a rut and find ourselves getting frustrated over lack of results, when what we really need is just a fresh set of eyes to view the situation.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Couldn't have said it better myself Jean!









I am still learning about SchH training but this post could be about almost any kind of dog training and is the same thing we've been talking about on the recent clicker thread and on many of the various aggression questions. A lot (actually most) "dog" problems are communication breakdowns that are really the handler's fault. We're people. It's our job to understand where the dog's head is and meet them there. They're not mind readers. They also, as Chris so beautifully explains, are pretty simple in their motivations. Frankly, it's a travesty to me to see people put all of the pettiness and vindictiveness of humans onto dogs. Dogs are dogs. They don't seek revenge, they don't even usually challenge people. They like rewards and they respect fairness and clarity. They are more than happy to do whatever you want them to do provided they understand what that is and there's something in it for them. Initially that can be food or a toy, down the road maybe it's just knowing how to make you happy. Watching the relief - and it really is _relief _ - on a dog's face when they finally understand what the handler wants and so how to get the reward and stop all the yelling/nose pops/whatever is being dolled out is both beautiful and heartbreaking that it took that long to get there. 

I think one of the saddest realities in dog training is that dogs are forgiving enough and intelligent enough that so many training techniques work. People can use some technique for 30 years and it can work - and it can still be a lousy technique. I'm always happy to see people open to a better, kinder, way of doing things. There have been a lot of advances in the understanding of animal behavior and training in the last 20 years or so and I am very happy to see them!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Chris, thank you for sharing this story and for the insight! I learn more from you and from reading this board than from the trainers in my place (in the middle of nowhere







)


> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> I just laid my left hand flat under her chin while still holding the tug with my right hand, and using some light backwards and upwards pressure guided her into a sit. And I waited.


That's exactly how I tought 'give' my Yana! When she's too excited and doesn't let go immediately I tickle her under her chin







I was shown by the local 'trainers' that I have to hang her on her collar or pinch her lips so she would let go but she was just more determined to keep the ball or tug. Then I decided I better teach my dog from the books than follow such trainers advice, and it worked!! I want my dogs to be happy doing obedience and watever with me and if I have to 'smack' them in order to force them to do an exercise I'd better skip that exercise or find a different way.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

<span style='font-family: Georgia'>Chris ~ very WELL written, actually it was an EXCELLENT demonstration of what I'm constantly telling those that want what I have with Dante. The bond between dog/handler is so very important. I had one individual approach me and wanted me to take her dog for a month so I could do some training ~ once I told that individual that I would have to bond with that dog for the first couple of weeks first they weren't interested. So many trainers out there that I watch are so quick to go to compulsion to get compliance out of their dog instead of taking the time to build trust and a wealthy working relationship with their partner. This is only my opinion.</span>


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

What upsets me is that some trainers are so quick to use compultion on someone else's dog, not on their own, just to get quick results and show the 'stupid' owner what great trainers they are.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I think that is probably one of the best posts I have seen Chris.









I can imagine how badly you felt for the young pup you sent away to the handler and saw how it was being treated over the out. I think I would have come undone to see the dog hung. That would have upset me deeply.









I started using the word "thank you" for my out years ago. It reminds me to work with the dog and consider that they are cooperating with me. 

I taught the out with a food exchange and then back on the tug again. Havoc is the driviest dog I have had and his eyes just gleam with anticipation for the tug toy. But he outs it every time with no argument because he knows there is no need to fight over it and he will get it back. It is in his best interest. Now if I could just teach him to watch out fot finger nails....... He totally snapped my left thumbnail at the quick last night at agility. I guess I should just give up having nice long manicured nails!


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Oh Yes EXCELLENT post for sure!!!

And this one also!!!



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> A good example of why it's important for people to get out, train at different places and with different people and get exposed to new ideas and different ways of doing things and different perspectives on training, because we can all get stuck in a rut and find ourselves getting frustrated over lack of results, when what we really need is just a fresh set of eyes to view the situation.


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## jdsd21 (Jun 3, 2008)

Chris, great post as always, wow, some great insight. In my current elementary stage of training, I have found that the more I learn about what makes my boys tick/react provides me the foundation to gain quicker results when I train then any individual technique alone that I have learned. I can imagine that the reason most people fail in training is that they fail themselves in understanding the physcology of their individual dog. Everydog is different and techniques have to be adjusted to accomodate those unique traits. Thank you for your insight. Chris, what does "lock up" mean when you state..."So we play a bit, and then I lock up, and ask for the out" 

I want to steer back to the original topic of post and ask a question of you all who have experience building drive within a dog. As you all have probably read in my other posts, I have a boy (Max) who is extremely ball motivated and has drive for days, our training sessions have been great as of late because I am learning how to use that drive to progress. On the other hand, I have another boy (Hartwin) that isn't even close to having this sort of drive. If I pull out the ball, he gets stoked on it (drive is up), I will throw it to start a game with him and he will jam off to retrieve it, but will just lay down and play with it himself where he retrieves it (drive down). I can hold another ball in the air (using the 2 ball retrieving technique and trying to reestablish his drive) and he will just look at me like "ya, so I already have a pretty sweet ball that I am playing with". This kind of illustrates where I am at with Hartwin, I would like to maintain the initial drive through our session. As stated earlier in this thread, Zeus recommends that the original poster go back and establish drive through certain techniques. What are the common excercises out there I can partake in to develop and maintaining this drive? I will be getting some super "smelly treats" to work with, any recommendations? I go to Petsmart and all they have is treats loaded with Corn Meal and other products I try to stay away from. I am thinking I will give hot dogs a try, I have read that in other posts, but if there are any real good commercial treats out there I would like to know, please comment...


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I'm not a big expert and I'm sure others will give you more valuable advice. 2 exactly the same balls technique never worked for me so I had different toys. After I was throwing a ball Yana was rushing back to me with it because she would expect to get one of the following:tug, throwing a stick, other ball, squiker thing, hose, food, chasing me, jumping on me, a different tug, dumbell. She never knew what to expect and she was so excited to come back with anything and see what I have for her next







The major thing for me was to learn when to stop in order to keep her interested because at the beginning I just started with one minute. We still play this game because I enjoy it









Yana isn't the driviest dog, when I got her I could throw a ball at her and try to play with tons of toys and rags and she was just looking at me without understanding what I want from her. Now she's quite a retriever and a tug is her favorite reward.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: On the other hand, I have another boy (Hartwin) that isn't even close to having this sort of drive. If I pull out the ball, he gets stoked on it (drive is up), I will throw it to start a game with him and he will jam off to retrieve it, but will just lay down and play with it himself where he retrieves it (drive down).


What about using some sort of tug? Jute or even a ball on a rope.. This way it's more about interacting with you (which is where all good things come) and it doesn't give the dog an opportunity to keep his distance?

Or put the dog on a long line so that way you can reel him back in for more playing..


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I'd be really interested in this too. I have a dog I'm working with who has terrific interest in the toys - loves them, all kinds, but due to a history of severe abuse and neglect he doesn't really get the concept of playing with toys with people. He doesn't bring things back and he doesn't tug - he is so submissive it's like he doesn't want even the appearance of challenging me for a toy. 

I'd like to use his interest in toys to expand his training (right now we're using food) but am still learning how to do that. I have used toy drive for SAR training in the past but am still learning to use it for obedience and other exercises as in SchH.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Wonderful post, Chris.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Perhaps. But let me ask this... WHY would a dog disobey or disrespect it's handler? What is in it for the dog? When he obeys, good things happen (food, treats, praise, play). When he disobeys, bad things happen (correction). Dogs are very simple creatures at heart. They will always repeat behaviors that have brought success in the past, and avoid behaviors that brought negative consequences. They don't have any complicated motivations... they merely do what they believe will earn them the things they want. So why would a dog choose disobedience, knowing it will deny him what he wants and likely bring about something he doesn't want?
> 
> Answer: he won't. Yes, on the rare occasion the dog may disobey, but usually the reason behind that isn't obstinance but rather he sees it would be beneficial to him NOT to obey in that situation. In other words, the potential reward for disobedience is stronger than the reward for obedience, or consequence for disobedience.
> 
> ...





You know what I absolutely love about this board? Reading timeless pieces of advice, like the above. This was written before I ever owned a dog, much less a GSD, and now on my second dog I took away more than one nugget of wisdom. 



Thanks for that post, Chris. You're a wealth of knowledge.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Chris nailed it. Two hours???? I'd loose interest too. Hopefully you are not training for the full two hours. If club lasts that long (which is common - 3 to 4 hours) put your pup up between sessions. Give him down time. Put your pup up, watch others train, get him out for a few minutes, put him up.


When I drive to club 150 miles away, I laugh because it is a total of something like 5 hours driving for 15 minutes on the field so I go if we are also tracking. My dogs are put up when they are not on the field.


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