# Barking and lunging AFTER meeting people...??



## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

Ollie has sporadic outbursts of aggression, and I'm trying to figure out how to handle them. I was just reading the fear vs. protective sticky, and I'm still not sure what's going on with him. 

First off, he's only 9 months, so he's a puppy, but I'm trying to nip this behavior in the bud, as I live in a populated area. I walk Ol every day, and take him to the park etc, because I have a backyard that's smaller than a postage stamp. 

When he was younger, Ol would bark at pedestrians walking by, mostly out of fear. He has since stopped this, to the point where we can walk past most people without a problem (I can tell if he's too interested in someone by the perk of his ears so I'll call his attention over to me instead). Last night he barked at a jogger who ran right at him and scared the He$% out of him, but I can't say that that was entirely his fault.

However, sometimes he'll bark and lunge at people AFTER they've said hello, let him sniff their hands etc. I'll be chatting with the person and everything will be fine, but then he'll just start barking. I immediately correct him and I usually turn and walk into him to tell him to knock it off. Again, doesn't happen every time, just sometimes.

I can't really figure out what sets him off, and I'm trying to keep a close eye on him to see what sets him off. Has anyone else had a similar experience? After reading the sticky I'd say it was fear, but fear of what exactly? The people we meet aren't displaying any kind of aggressive behavior. 


Any ideas guys??


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

This sounds really bad. I hate to say it, but if I were you I would have this dog put down. I don't mean to hurt your feelings or anything, but this dog seems unsound in the head. Also, bc this aggression manifests towards PEOPLE, this is a dog that is an accident not just waiting but begging to happen. I know it sucks but you need to seriously consider that option.

I came to this conclusion because of these things:

1) He is only 9 months old and he has been like this.
2) You refer to his aggression as "sporadic outbursts". 
3) This dog has terrible nerves. No dog with a good temperament should shy away from a jogger and freak out.
4) You have no idea what sets him of.
5) He wants to attack people after they are not only neutral, but friendly. 
6) You live in a densely populated area

These are all BIG RED FLAGS. Not just things to pay attention to, but biiig red flags.

Again I"m really sorry to say it but...this dog should probably be PTS. Either that or you are going to have quite a management issue. Not to mention that this sort of behavior is a terrible representation of the breed.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Wow - not really what you expected, I bet - Ollie's mama - huh?!

Pretty drastic...

Hmmm, maybe we should have ours PTS as well, for she does the same thing - sometimes.

Hogwash.

Ollie needs more socializing, IMO. As does our Ziva. We never know what or when something / someone will set her off. I joke that maybe she sees aliens where we see humans or dogs (like in 'Men in Black'). Sometimes she'll bark & fuzz out after seeing a human - sometimes as we approach, sometimes as we pass. Same with dogs. On the way home from work yesterday, we must've passed 12 people & 6 dogs - she only barked at 1 (a police K9) & that was AFTER we passed him. The day before? Just the opposite.

Both our vet & a close friend suggested she needs more socializing. And that we need to learn to re-direct quicker - which means us learning to read her better. I would say maybe Ollie doesn't like the scent he picks up...heck, Ziva even barks at diesel trucks. (scent or the noise?!)

PTS a reactive puppy? IMO - even suggesting that is not only irresponsible, but totally uncalled-for...I really can't stand the psychoanalyzing of a dog no one has met. IMHO only.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Olivers mama said:


> Wow - not really what you expected, I bet - Ollie's mama - huh?!
> 
> Pretty drastic...
> 
> ...


Just wondering if you (or a family member) has ever been bitten by a 9mo "puppy"?

Sounds like you cured your own dog in only 1 day? That is terrific for you!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ollie_leyna said:


> Ollie has sporadic outbursts of aggression, and I'm trying to figure out how to handle them. I was just reading the fear vs. protective sticky, and I'm still not sure what's going on with him.
> 
> First off, he's only 9 months, so he's a puppy, but I'm trying to nip this behavior in the bud, as I live in a populated area. I walk Ol every day, and take him to the park etc, because I have a backyard that's smaller than a postage stamp.
> 
> ...


One idea that you might want to consider is to get and use a good muzzle when you are out in public and working on training your pup! Better safe than sorry while working with him.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ollie_leyna said:


> Ollie has sporadic outbursts of aggression, and I'm trying to figure out how to handle them. I was just reading the fear vs. protective sticky, and I'm still not sure what's going on with him.
> 
> First off, he's only 9 months, so he's a puppy, but I'm trying to nip this behavior in the bud, as I live in a populated area. I walk Ol every day, and take him to the park etc, because I have a backyard that's smaller than a postage stamp.
> 
> ...


Also get some pro help - behaviorist or good pro trainer. make sure that he/she has worked with (successfully!) big aggressive dogs like GSD's.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Just wondering if you (or a family member) has ever been bitten by a 9mo "puppy"?
> 
> Sounds like you cured your own dog in only 1 day? That is terrific for you!


1. Never by a "puppy" - just a 3-yr-old 88# GSD - I know what a dog bite feels like.
2. Never said our dog was cured.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> When he was younger, Ol would bark at pedestrians walking by, mostly out of fear.


No clue why a puppy was so fearful, but this was the time to work on things.

There's some things you can do now - your dog is still fearful btw. But you're going to need to address it by doing more than turning and "walking into him". You're going to have to get him over/past his fears. Or, failing that, keep him home and manage him. Or, failing that, do the muzzle. That'd be my last resort, not because I don't believe in them, but because...well, to give up and get one means you aren't going to be working with the dog but merely managing him from now on.

Fearful Dogs | Positive help for fearful, shy & anxious dogs Start here.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

ollie_leyna said:


> However, sometimes he'll bark and lunge at people AFTER they've said hello, let him sniff their hands etc. I'll be chatting with the person and everything will be fine, but then he'll just start barking. I immediately correct him and I usually turn and walk into him to tell him to knock it off. Again, doesn't happen every time, just sometimes.


HOW do you correct him? Personally, I am not a fan of corrections for this kind of thing because most people aren't versed enough to issue one properly and usually just reinforce that the dog's initial reaction is correct... people are scary and I get "corrected" when they are around so I don't want them around any more.

I agree with getting a good trainer that has successfully rehabilitated dogs before to assess the situation and work out a training plan with you.

In the mean time, The Language of Dogs would be a good video for you to watch. It is entirely possible that you are missing signals.


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

So I tried working with him as a puppy when the issues started, and he's gotten better, as now it's only once in awhile. Today we walked in a big park and he's was fine with joggers going by etc. We walked around my neighborhood as well, walking past kids that were playing street hockey etc, and he was fine. I feel like I'm missing a key signal.

I've had him in obedience classes since he was 4 months old. He's socialized with dogs-on leash he's interested, for off leash socialization he's avoidant and skittish--He follows me around with his nose in the back of his knees.
In class he's completely fine with people approaching him--we've done exercises where people approach him, and he's totally fine. I've emailed the obedience school trainer about these problems, both when he was a young pup when the problems started and recently. He's suggested an in-home visit. They're really pricey, but based on the responses here, that's the route I'm going to go.

He hasn't tried to bite anyone ever. He just barks at them. It's not his "scary" bark, so it's definitely fear. I think I'm just missing the indicator.

Also if a jogger was running straight at me, I'd have a wth response as well. Like I said, I don't fault him for that one--maybe others disagree. 

For correcting this behavior: usually I will correct him with his prong collar, pull him back from the stressor or force him back by walking into his space, and make him sit. Usually after he barks once or twice he's fine. Is that a better description?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree w/raven, corrections aren't the right way to handle this, or he'd not be doing it at all. Obviously.

If you can't afford a trainer, read the fearful dogs site I linked and the books mentioned.


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I agree w/raven, corrections aren't the right way to handle this, or he'd not be doing it at all. Obviously.
> 
> If you can't afford a trainer, read the fearful dogs site I linked and the books mentioned.


I mean I'm going to have to make it affordable--I'm sure my nervousness when we pass people doesn't help the situation at all.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

No, it doesn't, because the dog interprets it as you being afraid (of the bypasser) and then they become afraid.
Avoid walking him around people for now and make it all very positive for him. Walks have become a negative thing, with the fear, and giving him prong corrections all the time.

Once you've made walks "fun" again, start showing him people from a distance. Praise him for not being fearful (talk in a happy voice to redirect him when he sees them from a distance) then gradually work up to where you're walking past with him being happy/being treated for not being fearful.

But work under his fear threshold. When he's focused, cannot redirect to you, etc. you've gone over it and nothing you can do at that point is going to be positive.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also agree with working one on one with a good trainer/behaviorist.

SInce you can't really pinpoint what his trigger is, (and it sounds to me like a fearful/lack of confidence reaction), for now, I would still take him out socialize the heck out of him, however, I would have people put him on the big IGNORE, that means, no staring, no touching, no sniffing of hands, nothing, People are to IGNORE him. He is invisible..If you stop to talk to someone, put him in a sit or a down, next to you, and keep people out of his close proximity. 

When you see that "perk" that you think is going to cause a reaction, work on a good LEAVE IT. continue on. Dogs pick up on our feelings as well, if your feeling stressed or not confident in a situation, it travels down the leash.

I would continue with your classes , I would get the tape Jamie suggested, I would also take to your breeder maybe get some suggestions there.

I doubt I would correct with a prong as well, just for the reason Jamie said, I would rather see this as a warning, vs no warning and he just lunge and end up biting someone. 

Just some ideas


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Olivers mama said:


> 1. Never by a "puppy" - just a 3-yr-old 88# GSD - I know what a dog bite feels like.
> 2. Never said our dog was cured.


"On the way home from work yesterday, we must've passed 12 people & 6 dogs - she only barked at 1 (a police K9) & that was AFTER we passed him. *The day before? Just the opposite"*

Sounded like it to me when I read your post!

Must have misunderstood what you said, or meant, perhaps?


Think a 9mo puppy could do a lot of damage if it bit someone? Esp. if they was so very aggressiv,e as it sounded in the OP's post? I do, having had a 9mo who was a star in his ScH training (although he wasn't people aggressive at all) just a healthy demonstration of what a "puppy" is capable of if they are out of control!


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

cod - I was "trying" to explain how unpredictable our dog is. 1 day she barks at someone, the next day not. Hard to know what/who will set her off.

I misunderstood the OP's original post-I didn't realize her pup was a bite threat.

Methinks I shuld stay home until my ChemoBrain syndrome is gone. I obviously can neither understand what is written, nor make myself clear in writing.

Sorry about that.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Olivers mama said:


> cod - I was "trying" to explain how unpredictable our dog is. 1 day she barks at someone, the next day not. Hard to know what/who will set her off.
> 
> I misunderstood the OP's original post-I didn't realize her pup was a bite threat.
> 
> ...


 
No problem! 

I must admit that I have misunderstood (gone off 1/2 %$%) some posts here myself.

It does sound like the OP has a potentially very serious problem and really does need to get some onsite pro help!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

ollie_leyna said:


> ....For correcting this behavior: usually I will correct him with his prong collar, pull him back from the stressor or force him back by walking into his space, and make him sit. Usually after he barks once or twice he's fine. Is that a better description?


I wouldn't correct for fear. I've had to deal with fear issues, and it has worked much better to call him back to me, (happy! c'mere baby!) put him in a sit (redirect his mind) and reward him when he obliges. Then, maybe, continue the conversation with the person and continually reward with some treats as he behaves nicely. Associate -- mama talks to person, doggy gets treats = yum! 



ollie_leyna said:


> I mean I'm going to have to make it affordable--I'm sure *my nervousness when we pass people doesn't help the situation *at all.


No, it doesn't help. What I do when passing a walker, jogger, etc, is go off the beaten path and put him in a sit. I talk sweet to him, oh what a good boy, maybe stuff a couple treats in him, good boy, and let the passer go by. He is to the point he doesn't care about the passer-by. He knows that means good things, he's going to be praised and/or treated!  



msvette2u said:


> No, it doesn't, because the dog interprets it as you being afraid (of the bypasser) and then they become afraid.
> Avoid walking him around people for now and make it all very positive for him. Walks have become a negative thing, with the fear, and giving him prong corrections all the time.
> 
> Once you've made walks "fun" again, start showing him people from a distance. Praise him for not being fearful (talk in a happy voice to redirect him when he sees them from a distance) then gradually work up to where you're walking past with him being happy/being treated for not being fearful.
> ...


Really good advice.! You might have to start 25 feet away and move in ever so slowly. This was the advice given to me quite awhile back, and I promise, if you take it slow, it works. Works very well.



codmaster said:


> No problem!
> 
> I must admit that I have misunderstood (*gone off 1/2 %$%*) some posts here myself......


Noooo, can't believe that. :crazy:


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

Olivers mama said:


> cod - I was "trying" to explain how unpredictable our dog is. 1 day she barks at someone, the next day not. Hard to know what/who will set her off.
> 
> I misunderstood the OP's original post-I didn't realize her pup was a bite threat.
> 
> ...


He's not a bite threat and has never tried to bite anyone--he just barks. I think I explained poorly :-/


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

Yesterday my boyfriend told me he took Ol into Supercuts (don't ask me how that was allowed--the man must have some strong powers of persuasion) and Ol laid down next to the chair while he got his hair cut and was totally fine. Now I'm REALLY starting to wonder if it's me. Could he be trying to protect me? or something? I don't know what to think, because again he doesn't try to bite, just barks. 

Thanks everyone for the links--slowly working my way through them now.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I doubt he is trying to "protect" at this age, he most likely doesn't even have the concept of that right now (to young)

BUT if you are stressed, like we've said, it travels down the leash, if you feel nervous, as in thinking "what's he going to do?", he is going to pick up on that nervousness so that also may come into play during these incidents.

With that in mind, you have to chill BE confident, go out there, walk him where you do, be confident, like your on a mission, just keep moving. Hard to explain, but when YOU exude confidence, he is going to pick up on that to. Trust yourself.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Wondering how you can tell the difference between a fear reaction, aggressive reaction or an excited reaction?
My 9 month old has been barking and lunging at dogs and some people as they go by. (mostly dogs) She is in obedience and beginner agility and is getting less reactive with the other dogs. She plays very nicely at doggie day care or at the dog park. In fact she is really pretty submissive. But in real life.......


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