# The Origin of the DDR Type



## Shepdad

The question of the origin of "DDR type" external morphology has intrigued me recently. First let me define DDR type here as relatively big bones, relatively big heads, and dark pigmentation usually expressed in dark or black sable, or bicolors. (Though icons of the type like Ali Granert, Ingo R., and Lord G. were strongly pigmented B&T saddlebacks but that's curiously becoming rare in the type.) Strong backs with moderate angulation and smooth gait, not straight legged. Not oversized but well within standard and strongly muscled and athletic,mostly dry but not necessarily, maybe even long coat. Controversially reputed for good hips and general health.

Usually found in DDR dogs but also appearing with regularity in Czech dogs, as we all know their links to DDR; and increasingly in WGWL as well, as the market demand for the type has increased in the last 15 years or so. I am not discussing temperament type here just appearance. Below is a photo of what I would consider archetypal: Condor Marderpfahl, a late 60s DDR Seiger. Almost all of today's top sires of the type are very similar to him.

Having looked at dozens of DDR and Czech pedigrees, the dog that might seem like a good candidate for the origin of the type is VA Baldur vom Befreiungsplatz, b. 1937, grey sable. Google translation of the koer: "Low, very typical, dry, solid male with good symmetry and clear gaits. Good attentive being. Recommended for females with a normal building and for family breeding on the ancestors mentioned under (*) VI 2." I have no idea what V1 2 is and if anyone knows, I would appreciate the info. Another "typey" dog that I almost always see in these peds is V Rigo von der Schiebockmühle, b. 1952, dark sable, who was 3-3 on Baldur. Google translated koer: "Good medium-sized, medium-sized male with a distinctive head and very good expression, with a good running top line, where the back could be even firmer in the trot. Good angulations of the fore and hindquarters, free aisles in walking and trotting. In the nature safe and open-minded with good sharpness and hardness."

First pic left to right, top to bottom is Condor, followed by Baldur, then Rigo.


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## Shepdad

Maybe a fun game to play is to go backward on your DDR or Czech dog in pedigreedatabase and see if you find Baldur or Rigo or both.


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## thegooseman90

Condor was born in 68 and sieger 71 & 72. In his survey it says he takes after his ancestors and takes after Rolf vom osnabrucker land in type. Rolf was born in 47 and considering the ddr existed from 49-90 he's a good candidate. He was b&t tho. 

Some of my favorite ddr dogs are: 

*Don vom rolandsteich*
Don vom Rolandsteich

*Bill von der wahrburger strasse* 
Bill von der Wahrburger Straße

And just for fun a mostly Czech dog with a a ddr build 

*Norbo Ben-Ju*
Norbo Ben-Ju

I'm sure if I went back thru each and every dog in my dogs pedigree I'd eventually find one of those dogs. I know that thru Ingo there's a Cora Marderpfahl


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## Sabis mom

So I started looking at what I know of Bud's pedigree (Sire line). His Dam's info is long lost in the mists of time. All I know of her lineage anymore is the call names of her parents. I know they were both imports from East Germany in 1991 or there abouts. 
Anyway can one of you geniuses please tell me what FH stands for, or PSH or ZTP.


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## Shepdad

Rolf Osnabrucker Land basically rebooted the entire GSD breed after the losses of WW 2. Interestingly, he is essentially considered the "father" of the WGSL. By the time Germany was split politically in 1949, but the GSD stud books remained one and there was free movement until the late 50s, Rolf had already sired many litters in both sides of the country. Most people think he has stronger ties to what evolved to be today's WGSL than any other dog of the era. He strongly influenced WGWL as well most notably through a straight sire line down to Bernd/Bodo Lierberg and the famous repeat litters. However, this line has been overcome numbers wise by the popularity of Fero's influence who is not considered a Rolf type but a Nestor type though you can also find Bernd and Mutz in his pedigree, and therefore Rolf. 

The most influential DDR line in working ability comes straight down from Rolf to Ali Granert to Ingo Rudingen to Lord vom Gleisdreieck. Interestingly, numbers wise probably the second most popular line in today's WGWL comes down from Ingo Rudingen straight sire line to Orry and then to Tom L. This line as well as the Bernd and Fero lines are also strong in today's modern Czech lines through crosses with DDR and WGWL.

So basically Rolf is probably the one dog that has heavily influenced all of the European lines: WGSL, WGWL, DDR and Czech. However, the SLs and the WLs are distinctly different types today. The type differences are less between the 3 WL lines but the DDR type is distinctive and more commonly found in DDR, then Czech, then WGWL, so I would say this is due to Baldur, Rigo and some others.


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## Shepdad

Sabis mom said:


> So I started looking at what I know of Bud's pedigree (Sire line). His Dam's info is long lost in the mists of time. All I know of her lineage anymore is the call names of her parents. I know they were both imports from East Germany in 1991 or there abouts.
> Anyway can one of you geniuses please tell me what FH stands for, or PSH or ZTP.


Google is the genius whose shoulders I stand on most days.


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## Shepdad

thegooseman90 said:


> *Norbo Ben-Ju*
> Norbo Ben-Ju


Norbo is also one of my favorites. I recently saw some of his descendants and I want one..or two..or three :grin2: However, at this point of my life probably too much dog for me to be household company.


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## Sabis mom

Shepdad said:


> Google is the genius whose shoulders I stand on most days.


Thanks for the help. Not used to reading these pedigrees. And I thought Arabian horse pedigrees were tough. Lol.
FH-Advanced tracking title
PSH-Police dog
ZTP-breed suitability test

Just in cause some other dummy needs help.


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## thegooseman90

Actually I think the whole R litter osnabrucker land was bred and praised heavily. I had this book somewhere and it talked about him and the R litter a lot. If I can ever find it I'll have to read up on it a bit. I'll have to look and seem if Baldur is mentioned. I know his sire sigbert heidegrund was talked about some and was an important dog at the time. A gray sable as well. He was 3-3 on Klodo boxberg. Klodo, Rolf, and Utz were all very influential. 



Shepdad said:


> Norbo is also one of my favorites. I recently saw some of his descendants and I want one..or two..or three :grin2: However, at this point of my life probably too much dog for me to be household company.


Man he's something isn't he? How close were the descendants you saw or were they just linebred on norbo?


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## cliffson1

I feel this book is essential to understanding the evolution of the DDR type. It contains hundreds of pictures of the top DDR dogs. I secured this book when I was breeding DDR dogs in the late nineties.


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## Shepdad

thegooseman90;8816882
Man he's something isn't he? How close were the descendants you saw or were they just linebred on norbo?[/QUOTE said:


> Grand kids. They would be fun dogs for the right owner.


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## Shepdad

cliffson1 said:


> I feel this book is essential to understanding the evolution of the DDR type. It contains hundreds of pictures of the top DDR dogs. I secured this book when I was breeding DDR dogs in the late nineties.


Great find for a book and that's before the Ebay era :wink2: I know this is a bit too much of a general question Cliffson1 and may be unfair to ask: What do you think of the suitability of today's current DDR generation as home companions for people who want characteristics of a working dog but are not necessarily looking for competition sports dogs or LE/military type dogs?


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## Shepdad

thegooseman90 said:


> Man he's something isn't he? How close were the descendants you saw or were they just linebred on norbo?


I just found this web page that has an interesting history of related Czech lines that we 've been talking about. I don't know the kennel or the person who wrote it. Prairie Shepherds--Working German Shepherds


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## thegooseman90

Shepdad said:


> I just found this web page that has an interesting history of related Czech lines that we 've been talking about. I don't know the kennel or the person who wrote it. Prairie Shepherds--Working German Shepherds


It's interesting to note the different bloodlines. Rolf, Utz, and Klodo all were so influential that they each have their own line. 3 dogs we talked about in regards to the development of the ddr dogs. I'm not sure the significance of this but I've seen Hans Prager talk about it on some other forums. It's a shame that cliffson doesn't talk about these things on the public forums anymore because I'm sure he'd have a ton of info on this stuff. I'm gonna check out that site and see if I can find that book he mentioned.


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## thegooseman90

For anyone interested in the books by Werner dalm 

Book's on T.P. Hunde-Guide

im not sure how safe the site is so I'll probably just use a preloaded throwaway card and attempt to buy it.


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## cliffson1

Shepdad said:


> Great find for a book and that's before the Ebay era :wink2: I know this is a bit too much of a general question Cliffson1 and may be unfair to ask: What do you think of the suitability of today's current DDR generation as home companions for people who want characteristics of a working dog but are not necessarily looking for competition sports dogs or LE/military type dogs?


Actually, I had the book autographed by Werner and brought to me by Tommy Jensen of T P Hund. We met at the 2008 WUSV trial( The Worlds) in Florence, Ky; and along with breeders from Holland, Germany, Czech, Canada,and the United States, we have met at last two worlds,( 2008,2013) in the US and spent hours discussing the breed, specific dogs, lines, the direction of the breed in our respective areas, etc. Very enlightening!
As to your question, I think today’s DDR dogs are very suitable for what you described above....unfortunately it still is necessary to bring genetic diversity into these lines to maintain the strengths of this type or we will see temperament go the way of other types that only breed for singular purpose. With the genetic diversity comes a loss of type, which often conflicts with the “ likes” of the breeder. That is why the DDR dog of today is different from the DDR dogs of 30 years ago in type and temperament.


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## wolfstraum

Unfortunately - breeders here today are not overly interested in producing a stable, balanced dog.

They want the big names - dogs campaigned by well known competitors or dogs placing at events repeatedly - IF - they are connected to established competitors (who often buy them at or near competition ready levels of training)

Try to convince them to use a Fero free male (also Mink and Tom free) who has strong lines to these dogs, is powerful and has great work ethic in ALL 3 PHASES! and has very very good social temperament, is healthy and comes from a family (female side) free of major health issues, and seems to (icing on the cake!) produces very nice black sable coloring in a high percentage of his offspring! 

Everyone laments the loss of the power, the true appropriate aggression and the disappointment of hip/back issues....but still keeps going to the same genetic well.

This thread gives me alot of satisfaction and not a little validation 

Thanks!


Lee


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## Jenny720

I always wanted to know more about my handsome boy. He is from Belgium. He looks ddr to me. I don’t see to many dogs like him. He was a gift and brought him home in ‘96 he was about two years old. Such a good boy. Serious dog. I had written the numbers in his ears and one ear a series of dots but seems to have misplaced it. He was a washed out of a police program for not releasing his grip. I was lucky to have owned him.

Can anyone can tell me if he from ddr lines. His eyes we’re almost the size of a horses eye. His head was so massive. He sure like his own space.He was blanket black patterned. I always wanted to learn more about him. His favorite thing to do was to drag dead trees around through out the park.


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## Shepdad

wolfstraum said:


> ...a stable, balanced dog......powerful .........great work ethic in ALL 3 PHASES! .... very very good social temperament, is healthy and comes from a family free of major health issues...very nice black sable coloring!
> 
> .... true appropriate aggression
> 
> Lee


I think that is the description right there of the ideal GSD home companion and family dog! ok, the black sable is a preference, the other colors are ideal too


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## Shepdad

cliffson1 said:


> Actually, I had the book autographed by Werner and brought to me by Tommy Jensen of T P Hund. We met at the 2008 WUSV trial( The Worlds) in Florence, Ky; and along with breeders from Holland, Germany, Czech, Canada,and the United States, we have met at last two worlds,( 2008,2013) in the US and spent hours discussing the breed, specific dogs, lines, the direction of the breed in our respective areas, etc. Very enlightening!
> As to your question, I think today’s DDR dogs are very suitable for what you described above....unfortunately it still is necessary to bring genetic diversity into these lines to maintain the strengths of this type or we will see temperament go the way of other types that only breed for singular purpose. With the genetic diversity comes a loss of type, which often conflicts with the “ likes” of the breeder. That is why the DDR dog of today is different from the DDR dogs of 30 years ago in type and temperament.


Thanks for the considered response Cliffson. Great story about the book. Perhaps, some day you can share some of the discussion points that came out from those international breeder networking conversations. 

I have seen a few breeders and even some of the younger generation taking to heart (I assume) what you mention about genetic diversity. The fact that the DDR type is in market demand can lead to 2 things: backing into a narrower and narrower gene pool as the WGSL have done to maintain a physical type; or crossing WGWL and Czech and DDR dogs because their particular WGWL and Czech dogs don't have the market desired type while maintaining working dog temperament. Of course the latter is a more delicate balancing act demanding more expertise and responsibility to the breed, while the former is more simple minded.

One of the dogs whose blood has got me interested recently is a young stud out of Jinopo, Eiko v.d. Magie, who they must have imported from Germany as he comes from a German kennel. https://www.jinopo.cz/studdogs.php?lg=en#eiko and Eiko von der Magie

Perhaps you and experts like Carmspack, Wolfstraum, Slamdunc, lhczth and other pedigree experts can comment. He also has videos on their site. I like that his top sire line comes straight down from Bernd Lierberg and Asko Lutter (sadly not that common these days), he is 1/4 DDR from his sire mother line;the mother sire line is Karthago; and his bottom mother line is Tom z PS and Cordon. No line breeding. I bet bred to sable females will also get nice black sables. Seems like a handsome dog and I like his videos.


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## Shepdad

Shepdad said:


> I like his videos.


Rewatching them again, one thing bothers me though. He twists away from the stick hand and you can see Jiri blocking him on the next bites to prevent the twisting away.


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## thegooseman90

Jinopo has some nice dogs. I know someone with a moody son and he's a very impressive dog. 

As far as asko von der lutter, there's a reason you don't see it as often now. Most people hated living with the dog until it was mature but once it was they made awesome dogs. I remember seeing a post by Stefan Shaub talking about an asko son. He said the dog was such a pain to live with that he sold him very young. Later on once the dog had matured he was so impressed with the dog that he ended up paying to use it as a stud dog.


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## Shepdad

thegooseman90 said:


> Jinopo has some nice dogs. I know someone with a moody son and he's a very impressive dog.
> 
> As far as asko von der lutter, there's a reason you don't see it as often now. Most people hated living with the dog until it was mature but once it was they made awesome dogs. I remember seeing a post by Stefan Shaub talking about an asko son. He said the dog was such a pain to live with that he sold him very young. Later on once the dog had matured he was so impressed with the dog that he ended up paying to use it as a stud dog.


Excellent info thanks! That's one thing that came to my mind, that the dog was young.


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## Shepdad

Jeny720, very handsome dog and I like the tree story. Such a helpful attitude LOL. He does have that serious look. You must miss him. A lot of DDR dogs were imported into the US in the early 90s shortly after the Wall fell, mainly for possible LE work, when people short of cash saw the opportunity. So the timeline and story fits that narrative.


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## lhczth

I trained with some very nice direct Asko kids, but did not have good success breeding my lines to an Asko son. I got some inappropriate aggression that I didn't care for and have also seen this in some of the other dogs coming down through Asko sons along with some edginess I didn't like. He needed to be used smartly. 

There are still some good ways to get back to the old DDR dogs that were actually bred to work instead of bred to be pretty pets. Dogs that go back on Lord and back on the old Wolfendobel dogs through the Fasanerie kennel. They can be found behind some good Czech dogs too though even there it seems like some breeders are more concerned with a fad of lines than using the dogs smartly in a program.


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## Sabis mom

This was Bud, shortly before he died. He was over 13 in this picture. If I go back through his pedigree, the part I have, I find several of the dogs you all are discussing. I just don't know what they may have added, if anything, to him
There were things about this dog I loved. He was a brick. He was stupidly healthy, no health issues at all. He could track anything and he hardly barked. He was utterly fearless.
I hate that it took forever for him to grow up, he was a rotten youngster with more guts then brains and ridiculously destructive. A six foot fence was a joke, he broke leashes and he climbed.
Comparing him to Shadow, it is like parking a go cart next to a Mack.


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## thegooseman90

lhczth said:


> I got some inappropriate aggression that I didn't care for and have also seen this in some of the other dogs coming down through Asko sons along with some edginess I didn't like.


This is the basic gist of every asko topic I've seen and every conversation I've been able to have about him. They say they're nightmares until about 2-2.5ish and they mature. Before I settled on my current breeder I was actually turned down by a breeder who had a litter that was, I believe, 3-3 on asko. Being new to the gsd and having a small kid she told me it was a horrible fit and told me I'd be stuck with all of the above issues until he matured. 

There was someone a while back asking about pedigrees and sure enough was linebred on asko and another first time gsd owner looking for a pet, tho I believe that person had already placed a deposit so not every breeder is as thoughtful when placing these pups.


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## Shepdad

lhczth said:


> I trained with some very nice direct Asko kids, but did not have good success breeding my lines to an Asko son. I got some inappropriate aggression that I didn't care for and have also seen this in some of the other dogs coming down through Asko sons along with some edginess I didn't like. He needed to be used smartly.
> 
> There are still some good ways to get back to the old DDR dogs that were actually bred to work instead of bred to be pretty pets. Dogs that go back on Lord and back on the old Wolfendobel dogs through the Fasanerie kennel. They can be found behind some good Czech dogs too though even there it seems like some breeders are more concerned with a fad of lines than using the dogs smartly in a program.


Thanks, great info lhczth! Somehow Lorg G.'s influence seems to have diminished over time in both WGWL and DDR. I remember reading and hearing some negatives about the line but don't remember the specifics now, that led people to breed away from him or at least not to linebreed (no line or dog is perfect of course). Though seemed to be always a great source for tracking ability. Or it could be one of those cases where a dog or line gets too popular, gets overused and people start attributing negatives when really it was the overuse (meaning breeding wrong matches due to sheer volume and too much line breeding) not the line per se. In fact, just about any line that gets popular at one point may suffer from this dynamic.

One interesting thing about the Eiko pedigree that I referenced below is almost all of his WGWL lines go back to Wolfendobel at some point which means he is really more than 1/4DDR because his WGWL and Czech blood is interwoven with DDR blood farther back than his first 3 generations, all the way to the 8th and 9th generations.


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## Jenny720

Shepdad said:


> Jeny720, very handsome dog and I like the tree story. Such a helpful attitude LOL. He does have that serious look. You must miss him. A lot of DDR dogs were imported into the US in the early 90s shortly after the Wall fell, mainly for possible LE work, when people short of cash saw the opportunity. So the timeline and story fits that narrative.


Thank you much for the information. Yes he lived with us a good ten years we had to put him to sleep due to he could not walk from arthritis right after Christmas. He must be visiting me why I’m thinking about him a lot he was such a good and awesome boy. Such solid confident dog.


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## thegooseman90

Lord is so far back in a pedigree now that whatever impact he had would only be recognized by the most experienced breeders. By the 4th general you're already down to only 6.25% of that dogs genetic makeup. 3-3 would be equivalent to having that dog in the second generation and give you 25% but I can't imagine that being possible. That said lord was a strong producer and had dominant genes. Good dog overall and I take negative reports about him in a pedigree with a grain of salt because of how many times it's been recombined and who knows what's really causing the bad nerves or hips etc I've seen mentioned as negatives.

ETA: the above figures may not be right but I can't look it up right now.


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## GSDguy4EVER

What is the value in the current DDR population being maintained separate from the other working lines? I look at the typical modern day "pure DDR" dogs and I don't see their qualities as being superior to the other working lines. They aren't faster, stronger or more athletic. They aren't more biddable. They aren't more social. I think the DDR purists are missing out on some excellent genetic material by excluding the WGWL in their breeding programs. Dogs such as Anderl, Marko, Racker, Mutz, etc. These dogs bring tremendous value to the overall quality of the breed.


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## dogbyte

I find this all super interesting, having my first Czech/DDR pup, after 20+ years of wgwl dogs. Have been told that they are different temperament, harder, edgier than my WGWL males have been. Hard to tell at 6 months. He is more laid back,a little more stubborn than my 2 previous males as pups. He can be a nasty pup about his nails getting ground, but he actually came up with the way we do it.. And even then he will sometimes "smile" at the Dremel if he thinks another treat should be given. So far I love this not so little sable boy.


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## Sabis mom

GSDguy4EVER said:


> What is the value in the current DDR population being maintained separate from the other working lines? I look at the typical modern day "pure DDR" dogs and I don't see their qualities as being superior to the other working lines. They aren't faster, stronger or more athletic. They aren't more biddable. They aren't more social. I think the DDR purists are missing out on some excellent genetic material by excluding the WGWL in their breeding programs. Dogs such as Anderl, Marko, Racker, Mutz, etc. These dogs bring tremendous value to the overall quality of the breed.


I know nothing about pedigree's. Bud remains the only registered GSD I have ever owned. So I read this thread with interest and an eye to learning. 
I know for a fact that on his dam's side he was straight from East Germany. I know that my boss paid large for the 3 dogs he imported, only to lose the stud in an accident after just one litter. Which fortunately produced Buds dam.
I only have a limited ability to decipher the sire line, but I am not dumb. It goes back to DDR dogs. 
And whatever genetics produced him, I want more of.


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## thegooseman90

GSDguy4EVER said:


> What is the value in the current DDR population being maintained separate from the other working lines? I look at the typical modern day "pure DDR" dogs and I don't see their qualities as being superior to the other working lines. They aren't faster, stronger or more athletic. They aren't more biddable. They aren't more social. I think the DDR purists are missing out on some excellent genetic material by excluding the WGWL in their breeding programs. Dogs such as Anderl, Marko, Racker, Mutz, etc. These dogs bring tremendous value to the overall quality of the breed.


The value for less reputable breeders is marketing. The value for reputable breeders is trying to preserve some of the old lines that they loved. But they are being mixed with some Czech, wgwl, etc for some genetic diversity.


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## wolfstraum

thegooseman90 said:


> Lord is so far back in a pedigree now that whatever impact he had would only be recognized by the most experienced breeders. By the 4th general you're already down to only 6.25% of that dogs genetic makeup. 3-3 would be equivalent to having that dog in the second generation and give you 25% but I can't imagine that being possible. That said lord was a strong producer and had dominant genes. Good dog overall and I take negative reports about him in a pedigree with a grain of salt because of how many times it's been recombined and who knows what's really causing the bad nerves or hips etc I've seen mentioned as negatives.
> 
> ETA: the above figures may not be right but I can't look it up right now.


I have him in 4th generation and then a few more times in 7 I think....my original female being 2-5,5 on Lord - bred her to a dog whose dam was Fasanerie out of Wolfendoble lines....every dog I have seen with this combo, with Ufo and/or Cordan An Sat added in has had balance, terrific power and superb tracking ability....

I look for prepotency - and believe that Lord is a very prepotent dog.....to quote Herr Wilfred Scheld - "the best dog to ever be born in East Germany"

Lee


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## lhczth

Lord produced exceptional hunt drive, good joints, sound nerves. You had to watch for reverse masks and a lack of drive for obedience which is easy enough to balance out in this day and age.


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## lhczth

thegooseman90 said:


> This is the basic gist of every asko topic I've seen and every conversation I've been able to have about him. They say they're nightmares until about 2-2.5ish and they mature. Before I settled on my current breeder I was actually turned down by a breeder who had a litter that was, I believe, 3-3 on asko. Being new to the gsd and having a small kid she told me it was a horrible fit and told me I'd be stuck with all of the above issues until he matured.
> 
> There was someone a while back asking about pedigrees and sure enough was linebred on asko and another first time gsd owner looking for a pet, tho I believe that person had already placed a deposit so not every breeder is as thoughtful when placing these pups.


These are mature dogs that are exhibiting what I consider inappropriate aggression (very high levels of dog aggression, aggression towards children......) and not young punks that needed direction. Some are fine, others not so much. Asko needed to be used smartly, but, like most winning dogs, was often bred to anything. I like aggression. I don't like nasty.


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## Slamdunc

Shepdad said:


> Rewatching them again, one thing bothers me though. He twists away from the stick hand and you can see Jiri blocking him on the next bites to prevent the twisting away.


What video are you talking about?

ETA: I found it. Yes, some clever handling.


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## wolfstraum

lhczth said:


> Lord produced exceptional hunt drive, good joints, sound nerves. You had to watch for reverse masks and a lack of drive for obedience which is easy enough to balance out in this day and age.



Absolutely correct.....in my K's there was one who was like his grandmother (who was the one 2-5,5 on Lord) in obedience, but only 1 - he does it, but not with the style and enthusiasm that is so sought after...the hunt drive and tracking ability has been strong all the way through 4 generations now, orthopedics have been good and so have nerves...the K boys also don't have the pigment of their mom (my avatar photo), looking like their sire color wise, or masks I want - but even I have been surprised at the intense strong pigment that Komet has produced in all three litters so far. Much better than he has.

Lee


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## thegooseman90

lhczth said:


> These are mature dogs that are exhibiting what I consider inappropriate aggression (very high levels of dog aggression, aggression towards children......) and not young punks that needed direction. Some are fine, others not so much. Asko needed to be used smartly, but, like most winning dogs, was often bred to anything. I like aggression. I don't like nasty.


Oh I see. That's typical of the young punks but I can see it easily turning into the downright nasty dogs you speak of. What became of that litter?

Earlier in the thread I mentioned a first time gsd owner being sold a linebred asko puppy. That stud dog is now for sale. He's 5-4 on lord and asko in the 3rd gen sire side. I'm wondering if those pups ended up with some of the same issue and now they want to start over. 

Bax vom Wieratal


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## Shepdad

thegooseman90;8819698
Earlier in the thread I mentioned a first time gsd owner being sold a linebred asko puppy. That stud dog is now for sale. He's 5-4 on lord and asko in the 3rd gen sire side. I'm wondering if those pups ended up with some of the same issue and now they want to start over.
[url=http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2385498-bax-vom-wieratal said:


> Bax vom Wieratal[/url]


Or it could be the Crok in the pedigree. Mix it with some other combustible elements and I would not recommend the formula for a pet home, or even a recreational sport home.


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## wolfstraum

Shepdad said:


> Or it could be the Crok in the pedigree. Mix it with some other combustible elements and I would not recommend the formula for a pet home, or even a recreational sport home.


2x Mink, once through Crok....plus the Asko.....yep - agreed


Lee


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## thegooseman90

Shepdad said:


> Or it could be the Crok in the pedigree. Mix it with some other combustible elements and I would not recommend the formula for a pet home, or even a recreational sport home.


No doubt. The pedigree wasn't a pet home one and several people warned against it but you know how OP's are lol here's the full mating outcome from that breeding 

Litter from Bax vom Wieratal and Capri vom Kiebitzende


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## Seer

GSDguy4EVER said:


> What is the value in the current DDR population being maintained separate from the other working lines? I look at the typical modern day "pure DDR" dogs and I don't see their qualities as being superior to the other working lines. They aren't faster, stronger or more athletic. They aren't more biddable. They aren't more social. I think the DDR purists are missing out on some excellent genetic material by excluding the WGWL in their breeding programs. Dogs such as Anderl, Marko, Racker, Mutz, etc. These dogs bring tremendous value to the overall quality of the breed.


One of the biggest values is the closed DDR system. 40 years more tightly regulated breeding programs with more potency (due to the closed pool) to the earlier blood. I would not agree with faster, stronger or more athletic, its very inherent in the East line dogs of today,. They tend be very powerful with excellent agility and speed. The East also has an inherent aloofness as a macro or general rule, so they don't need the affection or attention from people that are not in their pack, and that is certainly not a bad thing. :grin2:Mixing for the sake of mixing is as bad as forcing oneself into a bottleneck both outcomes pretty undesirable, for me.


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## Nigel

lhczth said:


> Lord produced exceptional hunt drive, good joints, sound nerves. You had to watch for reverse masks and a lack of drive for obedience which is easy enough to balance out in this day and age.


Watch for reverse masks to weed out or that they typically carry those traits?


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## Shepdad

Equal time for historical beautiful DDR females. (All dark or black sable that look identical to today's dogs of the type. 
L to R; top to bottom: Bruni Sandbergtannen, 76 DDR Siegerin; Kessa Haus Himpel, 67&68 DDR Siegerin; Birke Haus Himpel, 69 DDr Siegerin, daughter of Kessa; Palma Haus Himpel, daughter of Kessa and Bernd Lierberg.


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## thegooseman90

Nigel said:


> Watch for reverse masks to weed out or that they typically carry those traits?


That reverse mask was so dominant in lord that he passed it on even when bred to all black females.


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## Slamdunc

I think we need to take into account that "large breeders" that produce a large quantity of dogs may not produce the dog that most novices really want. If a large breeder or importer / broker sells and breeds dogs that never go anywhere, never get titled, top sport folks ignore, then there is a reason. Be careful with the hype of large breeders with marginal dogs and fancy websites and lots of hype and nonsense. 

I prefer quality over quantity, actually quality over puppy producers or puppy mills. One would need to be able to distinguish the difference. I hope folks see the difference.


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## GSDguy4EVER

thegooseman90 said:


> No doubt. The pedigree wasn't a pet home one and several people warned against it but you know how OP's are lol here's the full mating outcome from that breeding
> 
> Litter from Bax vom Wieratal and Capri vom Kiebitzende


In my opinion, the issue with this breeding is not the presence of Asko or Mink in the pedigree per se. The issue is the dam's unbalanced pedigree. The amount of Fero blood in this dam is way too high. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see the genetic nerve strength needed in the dam's pedigree to stabilize the amount of prey drive, fight drive, and aggression inherent in this breeding.

Also, I see Bax's pedigree, and I think it is quite nice. His protection video also shows a dog that is for the most part in control. Not a bad dog from the limited info I have seen.


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## thegooseman90

GSDguy4EVER said:


> In my opinion, the issue with this breeding is not the presence of Asko or Mink in the pedigree per se. The issue is the dam's unbalanced pedigree. The amount of Fero blood in this dam is way too high. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see the genetic nerve strength needed in the dam's pedigree to stabilize the amount of prey drive, fight drive, and aggression inherent in this breeding.
> 
> Also, I see Bax's pedigree, and I think it is quite nice. His protection video also shows a dog that is for the most part in control. Not a bad dog from the limited info I have seen.


Good eye! And you're completely right. It was pointed out to the op of that original thread but they knew better. I wonder how that puppy is coming along  as far as bax he seems like a good dog and I like his pedigree. If I was a breeder with the right bitches I'd be dropping that seller a line


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## Shepdad

thegooseman90 said:


> Good eye! And you're completely right. It was pointed out to the op of that original thread but they knew better. I wonder how that puppy is coming along  as far as bax he seems like a good dog and I like his pedigree. If I was a breeder with the right bitches I'd be dropping that seller a line


I know the kennel that bred the dam and I think it is safe to say they know what they are doing as much as anyone in this forum, and probably more than some. A coupe of littermates became police dogs, obviously in the right hands. I don't know if the litter being discussed was from another kennel, meaning if the dam was sold and bred by someone else.


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## thegooseman90

Shepdad said:


> I know the kennel that bred the dam and I think it is safe to say they know what they are doing as much as anyone in this forum, and probably more than some. A coupe of littermates became police dogs, obviously in the right hands. I don't know if the litter being discussed was from another kennel, meaning if the dam was sold and bred by someone else.


In the right hands is the key. She could be an outstanding bitch and all but she's the wrong bitch to breed to this dog for a novice owner or pet home. I'll pm the name of the kennel this breeding came from if you want.


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## Shepdad

It looks like the female was sold to someone else. That's one of the reasons I have no interest in being a breeder myself. Once you sell a dog, you have no control what the next person is going to do with it and the next generation, and the next, so forth and so on.


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## Sabis mom

thegooseman90 said:


> In the right hands is the key. She could be an outstanding bitch and all but she's the wrong bitch to breed to this dog for a novice owner or pet home. I'll pm the name of the kennel this breeding came from if you want.


This is one of the reasons I like this forum. I can handle anything and once a dog is in my hands I will make it happen. But if I am going to buy a dog I need to rely on a breeders knowledge and integrity. And unfortunately a lot lack one or both. This is especially problematic when I consider that I would need to ship. Buying the type of dog I want and need could land me with a 10-14 year headache.
By using this forum intelligently and listening to people "in the know" I can minimize the risk.


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## cliffson1

Sabis mom said:


> This is one of the reasons I like this forum. I can handle anything and once a dog is in my hands I will make it happen. But if I am going to buy a dog I need to rely on a breeders knowledge and integrity. And unfortunately a lot lack one or both. This is especially problematic when I consider that I would need to ship. Buying the type of dog I want and need could land me with a 10-14 year headache.
> By using this forum intelligently and listening to people "in the know" I can minimize the risk.


I agree! Especially about the knowledge and integrity aspect as being most important aspects of breeder. I really don’t care the size of the breeder if those two aspects are sound. Frankly, if a breeder is breeding exclusively for novice people, I would be suspect because in a good litter there will be pups that may be too much for a novice...that is the versatility of the breed which we should strive to not lose. The reverse is also true, if a breeder breeds exclusively for sport/show, they lose me....hey but that’s just my cranky idiosyncrasies.


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## lhczth

thegooseman90 said:


> Oh I see. That's typical of the young punks but I can see it easily turning into the downright nasty dogs you speak of. What became of that litter?


4 were titled, 2 pets. Of the 4 titled, 1 was rehomed after titling to people who didn't have another dog. 1 is now a drug dog, 1 in a home with an experienced handler, 1 still in the same home and was never a problem. 

The others I have seen have been shuffled around a lot, some are still with experienced handlers who don't consider it a problem.


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## thegooseman90

lhczth said:


> 4 were titled, 2 pets. Of the 4 titled, 1 was rehomed after titling to people who didn't have another dog. 1 is now a drug dog, 1 in a home with an experienced handler, 1 still in the same home and was never a problem.
> 
> The others I have seen have been shuffled around a lot, some are still with experienced handlers who don't consider it a problem.


Considering how many dogs get rehomed just for being hyper this seems like a really good outcome. From the sounds of it I'd say you did a great job of placing the pups.


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## Seer

Cant have a DDR thread without the top dog pictured, below V Fred vom Falkenbruch. Other notable females below.










V Mara vom Rundeck Dam to Ohle Rundeck 








V Gitta vom Hutberg 
DDR-Siegerin 1986








1981 DDR SGRN V Jessi vom Baruther Land


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## wolfstraum

thegooseman90 said:


> That reverse mask was so dominant in lord that he passed it on even when bred to all black females.



I don't like it particularly - but when you get a dog who is fantastic in temperament, orthopedics and all three phases of work - if this is the worst thing you can pick out about him?????? People are too kennel blind! this dog is a valuable resource....

Lee


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## thegooseman90

wolfstraum said:


> I don't like it particularly - but when you get a dog who is fantastic in temperament, orthopedics and all three phases of work - if this is the worst thing you can pick out about him?????? People are too kennel blind! this dog is a valuable resource....
> 
> Lee


I'm not sure if that was directed towards me or just a general idea. The only thing I said about lord was that he was a good dog overall and I take reports of any negative impact he may be blamed for with a grain of salt because of how far back he is in a pedigree. I personally could care less what a dog looks like in any sense. He could be green and purple striped with bug eyes and three toes as long as he does the job he's meant to do.


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## lhczth

wolfstraum said:


> I don't like it particularly - but when you get a dog who is fantastic in temperament, orthopedics and all three phases of work - if this is the worst thing you can pick out about him?????? People are too kennel blind! this dog is a valuable resource....
> 
> Lee


You could get color fading and light faces from the Lierbergs too, but they brought such stellar nerves. That is the challenge of breeding. Always finding balance.


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## wolfstraum

thegooseman90 said:


> I'm not sure if that was directed towards me or just a general idea. The only thing I said about lord was that he was a good dog overall and I take reports of any negative impact he may be blamed for with a grain of salt because of how far back he is in a pedigree. I personally could care less what a dog looks like in any sense. He could be green and purple striped with bug eyes and three toes as long as he does the job he's meant to do.


no not directed at you at all.....I have a male who is producing great puppies, from a family of good working and titled dogs, good orthopedics, mostly black sables so far...both he and a litter mate are producing strong working puppies who live in companion homes, great temperaments - but I am not crazy about his color....red is dark, but not enough black on his face....so maybe I take things personally :grin2::wink2:

Lee


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## lhczth

I'm like you, Lee. I like dark faces. Since I have Mink and Jenni Lindenhalle behind my dogs I have to watch for a lack of masks also. My upcoming litter adds in Lord (though he is back a bit) so hope I don't get any light faces.


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## wolfstraum

lhczth said:


> I'm like you, Lee. I like dark faces. Since I have Mink and Jenni Lindenhalle behind my dogs I have to watch for a lack of masks also. My upcoming litter adds in Lord (though he is back a bit) so hope I don't get any light faces.


the color - which is so like the sires - seems to not be strong genetically in mine - the lightest pup I had was Tom Mecca's Omen.....his face is nice and dark!

Lee


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## thegooseman90

wolfstraum said:


> no not directed at you at all.....I have a male who is producing great puppies, from a family of good working and titled dogs, good orthopedics, mostly black sables so far...both he and a litter mate are producing strong working puppies who live in companion homes, great temperaments - but I am not crazy about his color....red is dark, but not enough black on his face....so maybe I take things personally :grin2::wink2:
> 
> Lee


Oh ok. No someone said to watch for masks with lord, and another person asked why so I mentioned it was a dominant lord trait. I don't think it would be a major issue anymore even tho I'm sure it still pops up from time to time. To me it would be a non-issue regardless as long as they had all the traits you mention.


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## Ken Clean-Air System

wolfstraum said:


> the color - which is so like the sires - seems to not be strong genetically in mine - the lightest pup I had was Tom Mecca's Omen.....his face is nice and dark!
> 
> Lee


For reference, here's a couple recent pics of Omen. :smile2:


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## Sunsilver

wolfstraum said:


> I don't like it particularly - but when you get a dog who is fantastic in temperament, orthopedics and all three phases of work - if this is the worst thing you can pick out about him?????? People are too kennel blind! this dog is a valuable resource....
> 
> Lee


Somewhere out there on the web is an old black and white video of soldiers working their DDR dogs. I have searched and searched for the video, and can't find it, and am kicking myself for not bookmarking it when I first saw it. A very high percentage of the dogs had reverse masks. It is a recessive gene, but it obviously didn't come JUST from the Lord lines. Someone high up in the DDR dog breeding organization must have thought there was something special about it. Or maybe it was just co-incidence...

I'll say this - of all the GSDs I've owned, the one with the truest old-fashioned GSD temperament had a reverse mask. Her conformation was definitely not great, and she was a stray, so I have no idea what her lines were, (definitely NOT ASL, though) but by golly, no way was anyone going to break into our home or car, or trespass on our property when she was around. We also had to be careful of her with strangers. She wasn't that friendly with them, and would sometimes growl and give a warning snap if they pushed themselves on her.


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## GSDguy4EVER

wolfstraum said:


> I don't like it particularly - but when you get a dog who is fantastic in temperament, orthopedics and all three phases of work - if this is the worst thing you can pick out about him?????? People are too kennel blind! this dog is a valuable resource....
> 
> Lee


In my opinion, I don't think Lord represents the DDR "type" that current DDR aficionados prefer. I've searched through so many DDR breeder websites and what is promoted is the deeply dark pigmented sables or bicolors. Lord, of course is always mentioned as one of their dogs' ancestors, especially when touting their dog's working abilities, because who wouldn't mention such a legendary dog as part of their marketing strategy. But when you analyze the breeding dogs' pedigrees, very few dogs advertised as "Pure DDR" have Lord as the tail male ancestor. Maybe I am wrong.


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## dogbyte

Is there one of you that knows Czech/DDR lines that could give me some insight into Gunny's pedigree? Have no intention of ever breeding him. And,yes, not too bright to buy a puppy sight unseen, knowing nothing about his lines...but I had followed a full sibling out of the litter before his as she was starting her SAR training. I have found what most of the titles are, but some on the mother's side I can not find. Also if anyone knows personalities of up close dogs?


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## thegooseman90

dogbyte said:


> Is there one of you that knows Czech/DDR lines that could give me some insight into Gunny's pedigree? Have no intention of ever breeding him. And,yes, not too bright to buy a puppy sight unseen, knowing nothing about his lines...but I had followed a full sibling out of the litter before his as she was starting her SAR training. I have found what most of the titles are, but some on the mother's side I can not find. Also if anyone knows personalities of up close dogs?


Try posting his pedigree in a new thread. Lots of people here that know pedigrees and enjoy talking about them.


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## Shepdad

lhczth said:


> the Lierbergs too, but they brought such stellar nerves.


How do you think those stellar nerves got diluted? I think it's a very interesting question because Bernd and his brothers and sisters did get a lot of breedings in their time. Indeed they are one of the pillars of the DDR type, as well as WGWL and Czech. And yet the breed seemed to evolve to where if one has to pinpoint THE priority temperament problem of today it would be in the area of nerves.

I know some have theorized, for example in the Brisson-Hecht list, that this is due to the Thuringian root blood of the breed from Horand himself. And in the few decades after Horand, the cure was drawing back from the well of Swabian herding genetics whenever the GSD was losing its nerve base.

Where do those wells exist nowadays?

Some are of the opinion that the evolution of schutzhund from a breed test to a points sport played a role. And of course, the showlines of different stripes always paid lip service to the rigour of breed tests. Perhaps the biggest reason, BYB breeders from which the majority of shepherds in N.A. come from, could not identify strong nerves if they tripped across one, let alone breed for it.


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## Shepdad

Going back to the Andy Maly Vah discussion from the nerves question posed by GSDguy4ever some months ago. Cliffson1 identified Aska Cega as a source of stability in Andy's sire line and sure enough she was 5, -5 Gin Lierberg. Another dog identified by Cliffson1 Chuna Policia as a source in Andy's pedigree for the stellar nerves, and sure enough Chuna goes straight back to Titus, Bero, Held who was of course the offspring of Ingo and Burga Haus Himpel who was 2, -2 Bernd Lierberg.


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## Seer

Shepdad said:


> How do you think those stellar nerves got diluted? I think it's a very interesting question because Bernd and his brothers and sisters did get a lot of breedings in their time. Indeed they are one of the pillars of the DDR type, as well as WGWL and Czech. And yet the breed seemed to evolve to where if one has to pinpoint THE priority temperament problem of today it would be in the area of nerves.
> 
> I know some have theorized, for example in the Brisson-Hecht list, that this is due to the Thuringian root blood of the breed from Horand himself. And in the few decades after Horand, the cure was drawing back from the well of Swabian herding genetics whenever the GSD was losing its nerve base.
> 
> Where do those wells exist nowadays?
> 
> Some are of the opinion that the evolution of schutzhund from a breed test to a points sport played a role. And of course, the showlines of different stripes always paid lip service to the rigour of breed tests. Perhaps the biggest reason, BYB breeders from which the majority of shepherds in N.A. come from, could not identify strong nerves if they tripped across one, let alone breed for it.


Within the East line one of the dilution factors is the early split and further division from working to show line. The pet market made the rules and the breeders followed in lock step to dollars. As GSd Guy mentioned the Sable or to be more accurate the mythical Black Sable with racoon eye dominates kennels in over whelming numbers. These pups previously sold two, three years out in advance, for color... what could go wrong there? A dog like Lord and dogs with a more serious nature 5/55 dogs were/are not the right match for most of the breeders and certainly super problematic in placement to a market majority who could never handle raise or thrive a dog of more serious nature.


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## cliffson1

Stellar nerves get diluted when breeders prioritize other aspects of the breed over nerves. It could be color, or angulation, or drive, or raccoon eyes, or heads, or sidegait, or even minor things. The nerves is like the engine of a car or the blood of a person. We can tinker with other aspects of the breed, but never compromise the nerves. Other than nerves, there is no other aspect of the breed that needs four to five generations of emphasizing that trait. Yet breeders routinely do this not realizing, ( or in many cases not caring) that they must compromise nerves to go in this direction.....simply because the emphasis of the 5 generations have become stronger than the nerves.


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## cliffson1

I remember a few years ago we had two very successful show Dobe breeders in our working dog club.( I admired them for doing strenuous training with there dogs who were AKC champions). Anyway, it was time for one of the breeders to choose a mate for her Champion female and she had a male brought to our club to evaluate temperament and at conclusion it was plain the male was not strong in temperament. Now we had a male in the club that was very strong in temperament and so I said to breeder that you have a dog in club,( who was pointed so he wasn’t a slouch in structure) that would compliment your female moreso than the male you just evaluated....the breeder said to me that the male she evaluated had a much better front that the male in our club, and she didn’t want to lose her fronts. Sigh ....the resulting litter was weaker in nerves than either parent. This is by breeders own admission!
The above is classic example of how nerves are diluted,imo.


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## JessicaR

First I just wanted to say I really enjoy reading this thread, being new to GSD, especially working line dogs I find this very interesting! 

Zelda has a lot of the looks of a DDR dog, and I was told her mom is 100% DDR, not sure about her dad. I know he was imported from Czech. She has a soft temperament (I think), sometimes, for example I can give her a pretty hard correction if she is being to rough with the cat or if she is fence fighting with the neighbors dog and she could care less about it, but if my daughter or myself says no to harshly or even a leash pop during obedience it upsets her, when she was younger it would cause her to pee.

Would you say that is typical of a DDR dog? The reason I ask is I read that DDR tend to be handler sensitive/soft with low to medium drives. Here is the article I am talking about from this site. German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide



"In general, the DDR (East German) dogs are typically low to medium prey drive. They often have shorter, blockier builds and heavier bone and strong heads. In the past 25 years (since the Berlin wall fell in 1989), they have been bred for looks (but not the conformation ring) and temperament (the temperament that the breeder wants--whatever that may be)--but not so much working ability (not for success on the sport field). They often retain some of the strong, old territorial and defensive instincts and usually have very good noses/tracking and hunt drive. They tend to be handler soft/sensitive and very attached to their family and aloof with strangers. There are some dogs who are stronger in working ability, but if these dogs are bred poorly and raised poorly they can be low drive and nervy.


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> I remember a few years ago we had two very successful show Dobe breeders in our working dog club.( I admired them for doing strenuous training with there dogs who were AKC champions). Anyway, it was time for one of the breeders to choose a mate for her Champion female and she had a male brought to our club to evaluate temperament and at conclusion it was plain the male was not strong in temperament. Now we had a male in the club that was very strong in temperament and so I said to breeder that you have a dog in club,( who was pointed so he wasn’t a slouch in structure) that would compliment your female moreso than the male you just evaluated....the breeder said to me that the male she evaluated had a much better front that the male in our club, and she didn’t want to lose her fronts. Sigh ....the resulting litter was weaker in nerves than either parent. This is by breeders own admission!
> The above is classic example of how nerves are diluted,imo.


the same thing happens over and over again in GSDs.....I have heard experienced people say that you can only expect 1, maybe 2, good pups in a litter and the rest are trash....they do not balance their priorities, their choices....I watched a female (4 homes by 2.5 years old, a BH and 1 litter by 3rd buyer and sold immediately) exhibit horrible nerves - she has had 3 litters...I have seen and been told of nerve issues in every litter, even the one pup titled...but hey - she is breedable, she is titled and is a revenue stream now. The buyer refused to consider that she was a poor choice based on logic and history, based on undisputed weak behaviors. The one offspring is titled and that justified all. But the breeder is a national level competitor and will continue to sell pups to aspiring competition people.

Another person brought over a gorgeous well bred female several years back...bred to a J Taka Marda male - several good pups and a couple of nerve bags...same thing in 2 subsequent litters from other males....he sold her after admitting that it was not worth producing the poor tempered pups.

And thus, the working lines are slowly going down the drain as well.

Lee


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## thegooseman90

@wolfstraumThat's the sad state of the gsd now it seems. There's too much money to be lost by breeding the right way, or too much to be gained by not caring. It seems like there's really just a handful of good breeders out there now that the public has access to. The others are probably hobby breeders who are breeding for themselves, close friends, and club members. As someone else mentioned a few posts back it seems like the serious working gsd aren't desirable to the majority. People want the gsd look with the golden temperament. I was first interested in the gsd about 18 months ago and before I took to the web I had already spent a lot of time looking all over my area and I was beyond shocked at how many so called working line dogs were glorified pets at best. Zero working ability, no testing on the breeders part. When I'd talk to the breeders it was always 20 mins after hearing about their looks before you'd hear about their "working abilities". I was looking for an older pup, 4-6 months old and each one I visited was a nerve bag and the breeder would try and justify it by saying oh the dog needs to get used to you etc. Half the time the parents were obvious nerve bags. I passed on them but I'm sure they went home with someone else who has no idea what they're getting into and so the cycle will continue.


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## Sunsilver

I think it was Alfred Hahn (Busecker Schloss) who said it takes about 5 generations to get the temperament and nerves you want, while structure can be improved much more quickly.


----------



## Jenny720

JessicaR said:


> First I just wanted to say I really enjoy reading this thread, being new to GSD, especially working line dogs I find this very interesting!
> 
> Zelda has a lot of the looks of a DDR dog, and I was told her mom is 100% DDR, not sure about her dad. I know he was imported from Czech. She has a soft temperament (I think), sometimes, for example I can give her a pretty hard correction if she is being to rough with the cat or if she is fence fighting with the neighbors dog and she could care less about it, but if my daughter or myself says no to harshly or even a leash pop during obedience it upsets her, when she was younger it would cause her to pee.
> 
> Would you say that is typical of a DDR dog? The reason I ask is I read that DDR tend to be handler sensitive/soft with low to medium drives. Here is the article I am talking about from this site. German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide
> 
> 
> 
> "In general, the DDR (East German) dogs are typically low to medium prey drive. They often have shorter, blockier builds and heavier bone and strong heads. In the past 25 years (since the Berlin wall fell in 1989), they have been bred for looks (but not the conformation ring) and temperament (the temperament that the breeder wants--whatever that may be)--but not so much working ability (not for success on the sport field). They often retain some of the strong, old territorial and defensive instincts and usually have very good noses/tracking and hunt drive. They tend to be handler soft/sensitive and very attached to their family and aloof with strangers. There are some dogs who are stronger in working ability, but if these dogs are bred poorly and raised poorly they can be low drive and nervy.


I’m enjoying the thread also and always wanting to learn about our first gsd- Karat. Just rambling lol! - I can say Karat would be seriously dangerous dog if bred poorly bred. I was looking to see who he could possibly come from with his ears, eyes, structure and markings from the dogs posted and any strong temperament traits. He was incredibly attached to us. Karat gravitated to who spent more time with him. His aloofness, strong nerves and brain is what kept him out of trouble. He acted as if other animals and people were non existent when out. Only if they had would throw a ball or stick with specific instructions on to throw it right away or count your fingers. He had a big level headed brain- which fit in his massive sized head. He had strong drives but his prey drive was not over the top with prey drive. Incredibly serious dog would go until he collapsed. He loved his Kong and enjoyed carrying things on his mouth all the time. 

I always thought he had some chemical oozing through his pores he had such a strong energy about him but calm.Even though I’m inexperienced -I would say he was a very strong dog but at the same time listened well and easily. I never minded him to go on the couch -but I think only one time I saw him on the couch and he saw me come down the hallway he jumped down so fast. I was actually happy to see him on the couch lol! He did sleep in the spare room on the spare bed at night. I do believe he thought that was his room. We left the garbage can out - had limited space. Karat not once rambled through the garbage. He did not take food off the counter. When someone came over and saw they were invited in he would go to the same spot he choose in the house to relax and just watch them - not menacingly but in a relaxed state- photo attatched and in his chosen spot. If the door was ever left open the farthest he would go is the stoop- if that. How much of this was training and genetic I always went back and forth thinking I could not train his stellar obedience. I can see now most of this was genetics. 

My mom would call him Godzilla of all dogs - not in size (although a large dog with a huge presence )but in spirit. I always wondered if we had him as a pup-would be more comfortable with physical affection- at the time regardless he was perfect for us. His skills no doubt were wasted but he kept us safe and he did find our cat who went hiding in the wall so I can tell you was real cool. It then made me want always want a dog with a good nose. When I went swimming in the ocean he would stay up on shore and watch me like a statue (not so much with worry)- if a wave went over my head he swim out to me regardless if he got knocked out by a wave. It did make it hard to swim in the ocean because of this but was another thing I will remember about him. I find/ found it hard to swim in the ocean with my boy gsds- lol!


----------



## Shepdad

JessicaR said:


> First I just wanted to say I really enjoy reading this thread, being new to GSD, especially working line dogs I find this very interesting!
> 
> Zelda has a lot of the looks of a DDR dog, and I was told her mom is 100% DDR, not sure about her dad. I know he was imported from Czech. She has a soft temperament (I think), sometimes, for example I can give her a pretty hard correction if she is being to rough with the cat or if she is fence fighting with the neighbors dog and she could care less about it, but if my daughter or myself says no to harshly or even a leash pop during obedience it upsets her, when she was younger it would cause her to pee.
> 
> Would you say that is typical of a DDR dog? The reason I ask is I read that DDR tend to be handler sensitive/soft with low to medium drives. Here is the article I am talking about from this site. German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide
> 
> 
> 
> "In general, the DDR (East German) dogs are typically low to medium prey drive. They often have shorter, blockier builds and heavier bone and strong heads. In the past 25 years (since the Berlin wall fell in 1989), they have been bred for looks (but not the conformation ring) and temperament (the temperament that the breeder wants--whatever that may be)--but not so much working ability (not for success on the sport field). They often retain some of the strong, old territorial and defensive instincts and usually have very good noses/tracking and hunt drive. They tend to be handler soft/sensitive and very attached to their family and aloof with strangers. There are some dogs who are stronger in working ability, but if these dogs are bred poorly and raised poorly they can be low drive and nervy.


I think there are 3 concepts to think of that are pertinent to your example above: drive, pressure and conflict which are important for working dog characteristics (there are many others of course). You said, "I can give her a pretty hard correction if she is being to rough with the cat or if she is fence fighting with the neighbors dog and she could care less about it" Your dog is in drive in those situations. This is where pet training, especially of non-working breeds and especially of the all positive variety, is often lacking - training a dog in drive. There are other breeds that can have high drives but we want the GSD to have the temperament to be high drive (at the appropriate time) and trainable (or biddable at the moment) at the same time. 
(Interestingly, this is where herding genetics are so key. A GSD when tending sheep is always in drive, yet it is also always in control of itself, clear headed, thinking intelligently and biddable (under supreme voice control). I saw this when I put my female of BLH lines on sheep who was extremely voice sensitive (My voice only, could care less about the voice of others.). She was still young but the genetics were clearly embedded.)

So a dog in drive will be put under pressure or stress by the working environment but must remain in drive and remain in control of itself, clear-headed, and biddable. And this is where conflict comes in play because the dog's mind is put in conflict but by those forces pulling in opposite directions. So schutzhund and other types of working dog relevant tests (like SAR) train the dog to handle drive, pressure and conflict and still meet the work objectives of the handler. Nerves are the foundation by which a working dog can handle drive, pressure and conflict and keep it from falling apart and still be under handler control.

Christine who wrote the above description of the DDR dog knows her stuff.


----------



## Seer

JessicaR said:


> First I just wanted to say I really enjoy reading this thread, being new to GSD, especially working line dogs I find this very interesting!
> 
> "In general, the DDR (East German) dogs are typically low to medium prey drive. They often have shorter, blockier builds and heavier bone and strong heads. In the past 25 years (since the Berlin wall fell in 1989), they have been bred for looks (but not the conformation ring) and temperament (the temperament that the breeder wants--whatever that may be)--but not so much working ability (not for success on the sport field). They often retain some of the strong, old territorial and defensive instincts and usually have very good noses/tracking and hunt drive. They tend to be handler soft/sensitive and very attached to their family and aloof with strangers. There are some dogs who are stronger in working ability, but if these dogs are bred poorly and raised poorly they can be low drive and nervy.



Pretty hard to get past that last sentence, lol. A nervy low drive dog with stronger work ability. This comment like my comment above is a macro generality. I prefer to use more balanced drive's I believe it be more accurate, then low drive. Not extreme in one drive over another. That statement low drive was thrown around and perpetuated for decades by people who choose unwisely purchased a show line but looking for a sport dog, but specifically a black sable DDR first priority. The more balanced drives are not complimentary to high level sport activities. So it became the lines fault. There are lines within the DDR lines that will rival most any high drive sport line dog. It just was not the focus for most, a pet market and high drive dogs don't mix, so not profitable. 

A funny video I made about the DDR and there lack of nerve, drive and work ability.


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## Slamdunc

@Seer, 

Balanced drives and low drive are two completely different things. A dog could have balanced drives and still be a low drive dog. A "balanced low drive dog" is not going to be much of a good working dog. I suppose for a therapy dog if the nerves are good then it might be ok. For a pet, a balanced low drive dog is fine, again as long as it has good nerves. 

A dog could be low drive and completely unbalanced, low prey and low defense with low thresholds. Or it could have low prey / higher defense and not be a balanced dog. 

*"The more balanced drives are not complimentary to high level sport activities." * 

Perhaps, I am missing something here? Balanced drives are not good for high end sport dogs? Do you mean that dogs with balanced drives are low drive dogs? Have you ever competed and titled a dog in sport? I prefer balanced drives, but the balance I like is high prey, high defense and high fight drive dogs. I like dogs with high drives and balanced, maybe slightly more prey than defense for both sport and real work. IMHO, "balanced" low drive dogs make nice pets. My balanced higher drive dogs also make good pets for me and they work too.


----------



## Seer

Slamdunc said:


> @*Seer*,
> 
> Balanced drives and low drive are two completely different things. A dog could have balanced drives and still be a low drive dog. A "balanced low drive dog" is not going to be much of a good working dog. I suppose for a therapy dog if the nerves are good then it might be ok. For a pet, a balanced low drive dog is fine, again as long as it has good nerves.
> 
> A dog could be low drive and completely unbalanced, low prey and low defense with low thresholds. Or it could have low prey / higher defense and not be a balanced dog.
> 
> *"The more balanced drives are not complimentary to high level sport activities." *
> 
> Perhaps, I am missing something here? Balanced drives are not good for high end sport dogs? Do you mean that dogs with balanced drives are low drive dogs? Have you ever competed and titled a dog in sport? I prefer balanced drives, but the balance I like is high prey, high defense and high fight drive dogs. I like dogs with high drives and balanced, maybe slightly more prey than defense for both sport and real work. IMHO, "balanced" low drive dogs make nice pets. My balanced higher drive dogs also make good pets for me and they work too.


I think you get it. Medium balanced drives literally means the dog is evenly balanced across the board of drives. Prey is in balance with defense one not exponentially higher then the other. Which medium drive across the board dog can you point to in national championships? Yes, dogs that have very high prey, medium high or high hunt, and low defense are common. Your kinda not the norm, Jim, lol. Sooooo a very high drive dog across the board as your pet is you preference and works for you. ETA: The people who came up with the low drive nonsense about the line in general were mainly sport people accustom to very high prey, that's what they knew how to work. So the more medium drive dog or low drive show line they purchased became a umbrella term for the East in total.


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## JessicaR

Reading this post and some of the older ones on ddr temperament really explains a lot of Zeldas behaviors! 

As far as training goes what would you recommend? Would you say a softer more positive based training would be better until she matures, or would that be a mistake?


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## Nigel

JessicaR said:


> Reading this post and some of the older ones on ddr temperament really explains a lot of Zeldas behaviors!
> 
> As far as training goes what would you recommend? Would you say a softer more positive based training would be better until she matures, or would that be a mistake?


A trainer well versed in working breeds will be your best bet on how to proceed, no one here can say what's best without seeing the dog and knowing your expectations. 

Now finding that "well versed" training can be like finding a needle in a hay stack, choose carefully.


----------



## JessicaR

Nigel said:


> A trainer well versed in working breeds will be your best bet on how to proceed, no one here can say what's best without seeing the dog and knowing your expectations.
> 
> Now finding that "well versed" training can be like finding a needle in a hay stack, choose carefully.


Our 4H trainer does train working dogs, I am hoping to start seeing him after the holidays. He also does sled dog/ dryland racing training so he is usually pretty busy this time of year and since he donates his time for the 4h kids I hate to bug him when he is busy with paying clients.

As far as expectations, we are wanting to compete in AKC obedience with her. I think I just really more than anything just need our trainer to show me what I am doing wrong, maybe I am just expecting to much from her/moving to fast or maybe I am being to much of a push over with her because I don't want her to hate training.


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## Castlemaid

I don't usually jump into pedigree discussions as my knowledge is so limited, but I feel that I can comment as I used to have a pup that was a Grand-son of Asko and showed inappropriate, random agression and would seek me out _hunt_ me, and attack unprovoked. It was one of those dogs that was shuffled around a lot, and ended with a very experienced handler. 

I also own an Andy son, and is amazing in protection work. He's done suit and hidden sleeve work, and many experienced trainers have told me that he is one of the hardest hitting, strongest bitting, fastest dog they have ever worked. One guy told me he'd rather spend the weekend working 20 police dogs (as he was on his way to do), then then work Gryffon as he gets more bruised and beat up doing 3 or 4 bite-work sessions with Gryff than doing multiple sessions with certified, operational K9's. Gryff's clear-headedness during work, and easy-going, friendly personality is in complete contrast to his seriousness in protection work. He comes to work with me and gently plays tug with everyone, and my cats love him and seek him out for play and cuddles and grooming.


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## Sunsilver

Sunsilver said:


> I think it was Alfred Hahn (Busecker Schloss) who said it takes about 5 generations to get the temperament and nerves you want, while structure can be improved much more quickly.


Found the exact quote, which was from a conversation he had with Koos Hassing:



> Alfred Hahn, from the kennel “vom Busecker Schloss, was very clear. He told me: “Koos, if you want to improve the German Shepherd Dog, and I know that is your goal, then consider this for the future. One can improve the anatomy of the German Shepherd in only a few generations. But to improve, temperament, character, and the necessary working abilities take much much longer. Good males will always be around, so focus on the quality of your brood bitches!” In my opinion, the pure truth, spoken by a very experienced breeder and Körmeister.


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## GSDguy4EVER

I don't have direct experience with Asko or his decendants. Are the negative behavioral traits mentioned only manifested in the sons/grandsons or are daughters/granddaughters also affected? I wonder also, which dog in his pedigree is bringing these traits forward. With Asko having a direct sire line to Bernd and also a direct dam line to Carmen Lierberg, it puzzles me that he had a tendency to produce offspring with such behavioral issues.


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## thegooseman90

*"*I think it may just have a lot to do with internal conflict with the young dog in some cases, that the dog is not sure of what he should do, how he should react, or what is expected of him

sort of like a young dog showing social aggression, or dominance that he is not yet mature enough to back up. He may have urges, but is not mature enough to make sense out of them, or use them to any real degree.

I think that dogs that are not social dogs by nature, will be more apt to go through some of what is being talked about here.*"*

_The above is not mine_

But it kind of helped me to make sense of the stuff said about asko progeny. Haska produced another dog similar in character to asko, from what I've read, in fado vd lutter. He has a different sire line but he and asko both share the dam line thru haska. There could be more. I know next to nothing about Dino. I also have no idea what kind of producer fado was but I think he was in the states so it may not be too difficult to find out.


----------



## cliffson1

Castlemaid said:


> I don't usually jump into pedigree discussions as my knowledge is so limited, but I feel that I can comment as I used to have a pup that was a Grand-son of Asko and showed inappropriate, random agression and would seek me out _hunt_ me, and attack unprovoked. It was one of those dogs that was shuffled around a lot, and ended with a very experienced handler.
> 
> I also own an Andy son, and is amazing in protection work. He's done suit and hidden sleeve work, and many experienced trainers have told me that he is one of the hardest hitting, strongest bitting, fastest dog they have ever worked. One guy told me he'd rather spend the weekend working 20 police dogs (as he was on his way to do), then then work Gryffon as he gets more bruised and beat up doing 3 or 4 bite-work sessions with Gryff than doing multiple sessions with certified, operational K9's. Gryff's clear-headedness during work, and easy-going, friendly personality is in complete contrast to his seriousness in protection work. He comes to work with me and gently plays tug with everyone, and my cats love him and seek him out for play and cuddles and grooming.


And I’m willing to bet that your dog as well as his father who I worked, didn’t have high drives as much as he has Strong drives and the drives are controlled by superior nerves...which I think is the balance the breed needs overall.


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## thegooseman90

@cliffson1 any insight on this question? I'm also curious to know who's responsible for these traits in some young asko dogs 



GSDguy4EVER said:


> I wonder also, which dog in his pedigree is bringing these traits forward. With Asko having a direct sire line to Bernd and also a direct dam line to Carmen Lierberg, it puzzles me that he had a tendency to produce offspring with such behavioral issues.


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## cliffson1

thegooseman90 said:


> *"*I think it may just have a lot to do with internal conflict with the young dog in some cases, that the dog is not sure of what he should do, how he should react, or what is expected of him
> 
> sort of like a young dog showing social aggression, or dominance that he is not yet mature enough to back up. He may have urges, but is not mature enough to make sense out of them, or use them to any real degree.
> 
> I think that dogs that are not social dogs by nature, will be more apt to go through some of what is being talked about here.*"*
> 
> _The above is not mine_
> 
> But it kind of helped me to make sense of the stuff said about asko progeny. Haska produced another dog similar in character to asko, from what I've read, in fado vd lutter. He has a different sire line but he and asko both share the dam line thru haska. There could be more. I know next to nothing about Dino. I also have no idea what kind of producer fado was but I think he was in the states so it may not be too difficult to find out.


The aggression definitely came moreso through Haska...I had long conversation with Greg Simpson, breeder from Holland, that used Fado for breeding and knew Haska progeny quite well. Fado produced some very hard and high fight dogs, often too much for accompanying nerve base. When I was a member of Delaware Valley Police and Sch Club for five years, our President imported a Fado son from Holland. He had just titled a dog from puppy to Sch 3 and was an experienced handler. By the time the dog was 18 months, he could no longer keep him as the dog had serious aggression and high fight. He went down to Atlanta to a member of Wallace Payne/Rhonda Southern’s Sch Club. Eventually, I think he was rehomed again. 
I am not an Asko fan, but I have seen very good dogs through him and some major issues through him. The key to the good Asko progeny has always been the dam line he is bred to,imo.


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## Castlemaid

cliffson1 said:


> And I’m willing to bet that your dog as well as his father who I worked, didn’t have high drives as much as he has Strong drives and the drives are controlled by superior nerves...which I think is the balance the breed needs overall.


_Strong drives_ as opposed to high-drives - very well put! I usually think of it as controlled drives. Appropriate, focused drives. Doesn't chase everything that moves, but gives 200% of himself where it matters.


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## wolfstraum

thegooseman90 said:


> @wolfstraumThat's the sad state of the gsd now it seems. There's too much money to be lost by breeding the right way, or too much to be gained by not caring. It seems like there's really just a handful of good breeders out there now that the public has access to. The others are probably hobby breeders who are breeding for themselves, close friends, and club members. As someone else mentioned a few posts back it seems like the serious working gsd aren't desirable to the majority.


One of the biggest problems is just breeding to NAMES/HANDLERS - dogs owned by big kennels, big competitors who get trained dogs and win over and over with them...ignore the health problems, the excuses for their injuries, their lack of balance, just look at the handler, the trainer, the placings....breed to imports who have proven that they are NOT great producers in Europe but who have a name for some reason or other touted heavily....names sell puppies.....I can have a dog who is a genetic treasure, has all the bells and whistles mentioned here on paper, has superior workability, sound sound nerves, is producing pups who demonstrate that they can work and who have super temperament - but he is not being shown and titled by a big name....trained by one, but ---long story.....people still go to dogs who are clustered on Fero, who have health issues, back surgeries, who have a pedigree full of the same dogs as 3/4 of the other dogs out there....and miss the opportunity to actually do a breeding to improve, complement and compensate in the next generation.

As I beat my head against a wall to find a stud dog who is NOT backmassed, from a family with nerve issues, or prone to injuries and temperament flaws.....

Lee


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## cliffson1

wolfstraum said:


> One of the biggest problems is just breeding to NAMES/HANDLERS - dogs owned by big kennels, big competitors who get trained dogs and win over and over with them...ignore the health problems, the excuses for their injuries, their lack of balance, just look at the handler, the trainer, the placings....breed to imports who have proven that they are NOT great producers in Europe but who have a name for some reason or other touted heavily....names sell puppies.....I can have a dog who is a genetic treasure, has all the bells and whistles mentioned here on paper, has superior workability, sound sound nerves, is producing pups who demonstrate that they can work and who have super temperament - but he is not being shown and titled by a big name....trained by one, but ---long story.....people still go to dogs who are clustered on Fero, who have health issues, back surgeries, who have a pedigree full of the same dogs as 3/4 of the other dogs out there....and miss the opportunity to actually do a breeding to improve, complement and compensate in the next generation.
> 
> As I beat my head against a wall to find a stud dog who is NOT backmassed, from a family with nerve issues, or prone to injuries and temperament flaws.....
> 
> Lee


So very very true!


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## Shepdad

That's why I think it is very useful for someone into GSDs to get some exposure in both schutzhund; and herding or SAR at the same time. Schutzhund as a sport has some amazingly good handlers and trainers, and these days the competition level in the big trials are so high in the B phase and lesser but also significant in the 2 other phases that the points difference is literally determined in inches and fractions of a second in precision of positioning. Another significant points requirement is the picture being shown by the dog. The dog has to show a picture of being in a state of very high drive - "enjoying the work." 

So precision and the picture are keys and the use of toys and play as training rewards to get that precision and picture favors super high prey drive. Also, that reward works with less mature dogs so dogs can be finished faster, be sold faster, get titles faster. The top handlers and training helpers can mask nerves that can not handle the drives or the aggression level, and know how to control dogs that can barely control their own drive; and the routines only last a few minutes. Note that I am only talking of Sch as a sport, the very best breeders still know how to use it as a breed test as originally designed for but of course the publicity goes to the sport aspect and the big name handlers. 

(To be fair, you will often find dogs that have not done well in big trails also get lots of breedings because of the information exchange that goes on between people especially in Europe who can more easily observe dogs in training in their clubs. People will say that do not make breeding decisions by attending big trials, you do it by attending day long training sessions in the dog's home clubs. Plus of course, see the dog's behavior in a strange environment.)

In contrast, in tending or SAR, you do not need the highest peaks of drive but you need a good level of drive that can be sustained by the dog for literally hours at a time. Strong drives as Cliffson1 put it, and controlled drives as Castlemaid says. And in that period of time, the dog has to be in full control of its drives and aggression. It is not the handler that is in full control of the dog's drives, it is the dog itself. The only way that can happen is if the dog has the genetic nerve base. That is why in the decades before WW 2, the SV literally used herding dogs still working in the farms as the cure whenever the show dogs started losing their nerve base. These days of course almost all of those farms are gone. So breeding becomes an even more sophisticated exercise.


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## Sunsilver

Shepdad, I've heard Carmen sing this same song, and would like to know what is it exactly that the herding lines contribute to the nerve base? IOW, now that it's very difficult to find a real working herding dog, how can you identify dogs that have the needed temperament to stabilize the nerve base?

Would a current HGH certified dog have the needed character? Or have the HGH standards changed too much for that?


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## cloudpump

Sunsilver said:


> Shepdad, I've heard Carmen sing this same song, and would like to know what is it exactly that the herding lines contribute to the nerve base? IOW, now that it's very difficult to find a real working herding dog, how can you identify dogs that have the needed temperament to stabilize the nerve base?
> 
> Would a current HGH certified dog have the needed character? Or have the HGH standards changed too much for that?


From my understanding in talking with Ulf Kintzel, because HGH is so rounded, nerves have to be good. A dog cannot be unnerved by the stock and run away or go into the herd. HGH has not become a "sport" where a flaw can be covered with training. 
There are some real tests in HGH trials. The car pass, the two different graze, and the bridge crossing (there's more obviously). No way an unsound dog could be pushed through.


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## Shepdad

I think it is the balance between drives and nerves that give the dog self-control. The balance between aggression and intelligence that gives the dog discernment (which is a form of self-control).
Nerves also allow a higher level of pressure and conflict before there is a reduction in drive, a shutdown or avoidance. Obedience from the handler can also induce pressure and conflict within the dog, balanced with the relationship with the handler and the dog's genetic obedience or biddability. 

I think there is also a relationship between tracking ability and hunt drive, and herding. After all, herding is self-controlled hunt drive. The first instinct of a dog as a hunter is to break apart a herd, isolate a weak individual, and hunt that individual down. Both lions and wolves, as well as early humans used that technique. That's why untrained dogs will dive into a herd.

A higher level of instinct is social hunting behavior. In this case, wolves, lions and early humans, would drive a herd of prey animals towards an ambush, where other members of the pack are lying in wait under cover. So there is already a herding instinct based on social cooperative hunting behavior that is balancing the more individualistic hunting instinct. Then a third layer is the herding dog avoiding putting teeth on the animal unless the animal needs to be controlled so it rejoins the herd, then doing it with a full, calm grip to avoid too much damage - discernment. Then working with the leader of the pack, the herdsman or woman, following the leader's commands for specific actions, while retaining the instinct to keep the animals in a group.

So the bigger the herd, the bigger the sheep, the more unruly the herd - the more power and aggression the dog needs. Yet, that power and aggression needs to be completely self-controlled and applied only when necessary and judiciously. Discernment and intelligence. Level headed under pressure due to strong nerves.

The criticism against today's HGH dogs is that it is still patterned behavior or the dog is following a pattern that it can be trained for. However, it is not as easy to train sheep (although the sheep are not really wild and are actually sheep that have been "trained" to behave within an acceptable range of behaviors). There is still a bigger potential for variability though since sheep are not exactly 100% predictable and there are environmental factors too that can disturb the best laid plans. So there is a debate too about HGH as a sport and as a breed test. Ultimately, perhaps ideally one needs to see the dog in an everyday farm setting when it is working not just during a trial. Although the trial of course is the culmination of hundreds of hours of training so the dog's ability to absorb this training is part of the evidence of it's genetic suitability.


----------



## cliffson1

Shepdad said:


> I think it is the balance between drives and nerves that give the dog self-control. The balance between aggression and intelligence that gives the dog discernment (which is a form of self-control).
> Nerves also allow a higher level of pressure and conflict before there is a reduction in drive, a shutdown or avoidance. Obedience from the handler can also induce pressure and conflict within the dog, balanced with the relationship with the handler and the dog's genetic obedience or biddability.
> 
> I think there is also a relationship between tracking ability and hunt drive, and herding. After all, herding is self-controlled hunt drive. The first instinct of a dog as a hunter is to break apart a herd, isolate a weak individual, and hunt that individual down. Both lions and wolves, as well as early humans used that technique. That's why untrained dogs will dive into a herd.
> 
> A higher level of instinct is social hunting behavior. In this case, wolves, lions and early humans, would drive a herd of prey animals towards an ambush, where other members of the pack are lying in wait under cover. So there is already a herding instinct based on social cooperative hunting behavior that is balancing the more individualistic hunting instinct. Then a third layer is the herding dog avoiding putting teeth on the animal unless the animal needs to be controlled so it rejoins the herd, then doing it with a full, calm grip to avoid too much damage - discernment. Then working with the leader of the pack, the herdsman or woman, following the leader's commands for specific actions, while retaining the instinct to keep the animals in a group.
> 
> So the bigger the herd, the bigger the sheep, the more unruly the herd - the more power and aggression the dog needs. Yet, that power and aggression needs to be completely self-controlled and applied only when necessary and judiciously. Discernment and intelligence. Level headed under pressure due to strong nerves.
> 
> The criticism against today's HGH dogs is that it is still patterned behavior or the dog is following a pattern that it can be trained for. However, it is not as easy to train sheep (although the sheep are not really wild and are actually sheep that have been "trained" to behave within an acceptable range of behaviors). There is still a bigger potential for variability though since sheep are not exactly 100% predictable and there are environmental factors too that can disturb the best laid plans. So there is a debate too about HGH as a sport and as a breed test. Ultimately, perhaps ideally one needs to see the dog in an everyday farm setting when it is working not just during a trial. Although the trial of course is the culmination of hundreds of hours of training so the dog's ability to absorb this training is part of the evidence of it's genetic suitability.


Very good information that any decent breeder should contemplate when assessing their dogs,imo.


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## wolfstraum

The HGH title is nearly extinct in this country - controlled by one man.....another club tried and the politics escalated to a level that was totally disgusting....I went to an HGH trial, had one of mine titled by someone in the 2nd club (and was witness to the fall out) - youngest female in this country to ever get the HGH, not mature enough to grip the sheep according to the judge at 23 months, but she would be by the next trial in a year.....but had it all and did the hardest test of all since the sheep left the field, crossed a creek and had to actually be rounded up and brought back to the test field through woods and creek....that female is producing superior daughters, with several training in IPO so far. However, I had the opportunity to watch a young dog at a show/koer, who was sound sensitive and had very questionable nerves around strange people....yet that dog was titled to an HGH.....so every test has loopholes, even the HGH....the dog was not confronted with anything that challenged him...if I had been of sounder body, my HGH female could have been titled in IPO, she had some foundation, and is from a litter where 3 brothers trained and titled and has produced dogs on the path to titles (2 years old a few weeks ago, 2 BHs & 1 TR1 with high score). In fact her progeny are almost too high drive, I need to temper the drives a bit if I do a third litter.


Lee


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## Sunsilver

Lee, would like to see the pedigree for your HGH female!

Also, am wondering what you think of Firethorn Farms. PM me if you like!


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## Seer

I think there is like 4 posts in the thread about the Origins of the DDR that relate to the DDR. Too funny


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## holland

what was the question again-lol


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## Sunsilver

Hey, don't knock it! There's some VERY good info here, even if it doesn't relate directly to the DDR dogs!


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## lhczth

As far as Asko v.d. Lutter. He had some edgy aggression coming through his sire. Pascha Glockeneck could be a bit edgy according to those that knew the dog well and not in a good way. Then Anka von der Kassebrede's sire line goes back through Canto Wienerau. The breed would be in a much better place if Canto and his sister had died at birth like their brother. Anka von der Kassebrede's mother line is strong, but, IMO, there wasn't enough to compensate for the rest of Asko's sire's pedigree. This is probably why, like Cliff said, Asko needed to be bred to the right females.


----------



## GSDguy4EVER

Shepdad said:


> That's why I think it is very useful for someone into GSDs to get some exposure in both schutzhund; and herding or SAR at the same time. Schutzhund as a sport has some amazingly good handlers and trainers, and these days the competition level in the big trials are so high in the B phase and lesser but also significant in the 2 other phases that the points difference is literally determined in inches and fractions of a second in precision of positioning. Another significant points requirement is the picture being shown by the dog. The dog has to show a picture of being in a state of very high drive - "enjoying the work."
> 
> So precision and the picture are keys and the use of toys and play as training rewards to get that precision and picture favors super high prey drive. Also, that reward works with less mature dogs so dogs can be finished faster, be sold faster, get titles faster. The top handlers and training helpers can mask nerves that can not handle the drives or the aggression level, and know how to control dogs that can barely control their own drive; and the routines only last a few minutes. Note that I am only talking of Sch as a sport, the very best breeders still know how to use it as a breed test as originally designed for but of course the publicity goes to the sport aspect and the big name handlers.
> 
> (To be fair, you will often find dogs that have not done well in big trails also get lots of breedings because of the information exchange that goes on between people especially in Europe who can more easily observe dogs in training in their clubs. People will say that do not make breeding decisions by attending big trials, you do it by attending day long training sessions in the dog's home clubs. Plus of course, see the dog's behavior in a strange environment.)
> 
> In contrast, in tending or SAR, you do not need the highest peaks of drive but you need a good level of drive that can be sustained by the dog for literally hours at a time. Strong drives as Cliffson1 put it, and controlled drives as Castlemaid says. And in that period of time, the dog has to be in full control of its drives and aggression. It is not the handler that is in full control of the dog's drives, it is the dog itself. The only way that can happen is if the dog has the genetic nerve base. That is why in the decades before WW 2, the SV literally used herding dogs still working in the farms as the cure whenever the show dogs started losing their nerve base. These days of course almost all of those farms are gone. So breeding becomes an even more sophisticated exercise.


I think one of the beauty of IPO is that it has evolved into a competitive sport yet at it's core it can still be used as a breed evaluation tool. And with modern technology (i.e internet/video) we have the capability to evaluate breeding prospects all over the world. If you ignore the scores and just look at the dog, you can glean alot of information as to the physical and mental constitution of the dog. For example, if you look at the protection videos of dogs such as Pepper vom kap Karthago or Chicco vom Weinbergblick you can see the physical power, mental strength, stability and self assurance in these fine dogs.


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## wolfstraum

Sunsilver said:


> Lee, would like to see the pedigree for your HGH female!
> 
> Also, am wondering what you think of Firethorn Farms. PM me if you like!


she is on the database and working dog - Kira Wolfstraum, HGH

I come up with llama farms and a trucking company under that name   

Lee


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## Sunsilver

Wolfie, here's the FB page: https://www.facebook.com/firethornfarmsheeptending/

One of their current herding dogs: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...d=2253192-roving-ewe-tess-truheart-ofirethorn


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## Shepdad

wolfstraum said:


> she is on the database and working dog - Kira Wolfstraum, HGH
> 
> Lee


Nice pedigree. Xento Maineiche's sire line goes back to Marko Cellerland whose father was an HGH. Xento's mother line goes back to Racker Itztal, son of Pirol Kirschental, Karl Fuller's breeding of course, whose mother was HGH stretching back for generations including Shäfermeister Manfred Heyne's Dori who Ellen Nicklesberg has discussed often. 

Kira's sire line goes back to Orry to Robby whose mother line goes all the way back to Burg Fasanental. A consistent mother line of HGH dogs followed by later females that consistently had FH titles showing the connection between herding and tracking. And Csabre's mother line goes back to DDR Rudingen and thus ultimately to Burg Fasanental mother lines as well.

Born to be a herding dog. Congrats!


----------



## carmspack

Sunsilver said:


> Wolfie, here's the FB page: https://www.facebook.com/firethornfarmsheeptending/
> 
> One of their current herding dogs: Roving Ewe Tess Truheart O'Firethorn


nice -- but not the same ----

there is a huge disconnect between the show or trialing "herding" including trialing HGH , herding instinct tests -- from that of the day to day practical real life working herding dogs.

That was always an animated discussion with Manfred Heyne

working herding dogs HGH -- were allowed under the SV to register progeny -- their work proved them, and precluded them from training and titling in the Sch H .


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## wolfstraum

:crying:


Shepdad said:


> Nice pedigree. Xento Maineiche's sire line goes back to Marko Cellerland whose father was an HGH. Xento's mother line goes back to Racker Itztal, son of Pirol Kirschental, Karl Fuller's breeding of course, whose mother was HGH stretching back for generations including Shäfermeister Manfred Heyne's Dori who Ellen Nicklesberg has discussed often.
> 
> Kira's sire line goes back to Orry to Robby whose mother line goes all the way back to Burg Fasanental. A consistent mother line of HGH dogs followed by later females that consistently had FH titles showing the connection between herding and tracking. And Csabre's mother line goes back to DDR Rudingen and thus ultimately to Burg Fasanental mother lines as well.
> 
> Born to be a herding dog. Congrats!



thanks....I spent some time with Koermeister Wilfred Scheld, who was head HGH judge in Germany and he loved Csabre....called her a "genetic treasure"...compared her to the HGH champion of Germany ....I only wish :crying: I had been able to koer Kira with him!!! He saw the mating when Gaston's owner offered it to me and recommended it...


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## onyx'girl

cliffson1 said:


> And I’m willing to bet that your dog as well as his father who I worked, didn’t have high drives as much as he has Strong drives and the drives are controlled by superior nerves...which I think is the balance the breed needs overall.


Give me one like this every day....even though training may be more challenging. I want a thinker and one that discerns over points and flashy flash. 
Presence is a given and it holds its value!


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## onyx'girl

wolfstraum said:


> One of the biggest problems is just breeding to NAMES/HANDLERS - dogs owned by big kennels, big competitors who get trained dogs and win over and over with them...ignore the health problems, the excuses for their injuries, their lack of balance, just look at the handler, the trainer, the placings....breed to imports who have proven that they are NOT great producers in Europe but who have a name for some reason or other touted heavily....names sell puppies.....I can have a dog who is a genetic treasure, has all the bells and whistles mentioned here on paper, has superior workability, sound sound nerves, is producing pups who demonstrate that they can work and who have super temperament - but he is not being shown and titled by a big name....trained by one, but ---long story.....people still go to dogs who are clustered on Fero, who have health issues, back surgeries, who have a pedigree full of the same dogs as 3/4 of the other dogs out there....and miss the opportunity to actually do a breeding to improve, complement and compensate in the next generation.
> 
> As I beat my head against a wall to find a stud dog who is NOT backmassed, from a family with nerve issues, or prone to injuries and temperament flaws.....
> 
> Lee


Andy Maly Vah produced very well...and his lines are carried on without backmassing. Though DM carrier is something to consider. I think Andy was under used and his lines should be continued....I have a son of his, and am not promoting him as many others would do, but know that there is value in the pedigree of my dog.


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## wolfstraum

onyx'girl said:


> Andy Maly Vah produced very well...and his lines are carried on without backmassing. Though DM carrier is something to consider. I think Andy was under used and his lines should be continued....I have a son of his, and am not promoting him as many others would do, but know that there is value in the pedigree of my dog.



I have totally wished I had been able to use Andy.....


Lee


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## cliffson1

Back to Eiko, he does have a very diversified pedigree. I like seeing Tom on the dam outline. I always want to see strong nerves in that position. I would have rather seen Asko in middle of pedigree and Chico in the sire outline. But that’s just me. The DDR dogs are in the right place considering it is new DDR blood. I’m sure this is a nice dog, the tricky part is finding complimentary females for him.


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## Seer

cliffson1 said:


> Back to Eiko, he does have a very diversified pedigree. I like seeing Tom on the dam outline. I always want to see strong nerves in that position. I would have rather seen Asko in middle of pedigree and Chico in the sire outline. But that’s just me. The DDR dogs are in the right place considering it is new DDR blood. I’m sure this is a nice dog, the tricky part is finding complimentary females for him.




Elko?


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## cliffson1

Seer said:


> Elko?


Eiko Von der Magie....Page two of this thread......


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## Shepdad

Seer said:


> Elko?


Cliffson1 is referring to Eiko v.d. Magie, a new stud of Jinopo and who they have been breeding a lot with different females recently. They also imported him from Germany which is unusual for them. I think he has an interesting pedigree that I mentioned some posts back. Thanks for the comments Cliffson1. I think his pedigree is interesting bec. he is 1/4 DDR on the third generation dam line but his bottom has one of the best Czech bloodlines in Tom z PS and Cordon crossed with Karthago, a very well regarded WGWL German kennel. On the sire line he has Asko Lutter, a legendary WGWL dog, who we discussed a lot, and who has a strong line to DDR dogs crossed with lines that go back to Wolfendobel that has roots to DDR. And the bottom of his sire line also has WGWL dogs who are really more noted for conformation and beauty but who also go way back to DDR.

I have not really seen any crosses the way his pedigree does. The pattern that I do see is that his male and female tail lines are where the breeder concentrated the lines known for working ability, whilst the middle has the lines more noted for type, and beautiful expressions of the type. It's a technique used by German breeders for decades. My guess is Jinopo is using him as an outcross as their lines are also starting to mass along a few lines. And there is some experimentation involved to see which lines he crosses with best. 

Whatever anyone thinks of that kennel they probably have a bigger influence on the Czech lines over-all due to their size. They list 20+ breeding dams on their site. I also like that their web site is very well organized and has videos, pedigrees and descriptions of every dog and often puppy videos as well. They even have videos of dogs from the 90s organized in good fashion. I wish every kennel has the same kind of web site and I encourage every breeder to take notes of their web site design.


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## Shepdad

wolfstraum said:


> I have totally wished I had been able to use Andy.....


Wolfstraum meet onyx'girl. :smile2:


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## wolfstraum

Shepdad said:


> Wolfstraum meet onyx'girl. :smile2:


there are 4 sides to a pedigree ..... 


Lee


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## Seer

With regards to Eiko I would say freshing would be a better term off a quick glance. The dog is fifth bloodline (Rolf) so not an out cross by any means. Jiri has utilized that bloodline for a long time, If i remember correct usually through Ingo. The mother lines for Eiko also supply a good amount of fifth bloodline. The first DDR dog comes in the fifth generation twice I believe with Olita. So 1/4 of the East Line, with no massing of DDR blood until the sixth generation. Pretty far back and in short supply to be of much significance at least for me. Also Sven Sindy Sando Alf are all super common blood.


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## Seer

cliffson1 said:


> Eiko Von der Magie....Page two of this thread......



Thanks I stopped looking........ After scrolling through the last 6 pages.........


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## Shepdad

Seer said:


> With regards to Eiko I would say freshing would be a better term off a quick glance. The dog is fifth bloodline (Rolf) so not an out cross by any means. Jiri has utilized that bloodline for a long time, If i remember correct usually through Ingo. The mother lines for Eiko also supply a good amount of fifth bloodline. The first DDR dog comes in the fifth generation twice I believe with Olita. So 1/4 of the East Line, with no massing of DDR blood until the sixth generation. Pretty far back and in short supply to be of much significance at least for me. Also Sven Sindy Sando Alf are all super common blood.


Outside of Sven Sindy Sando Alf, which lines do you like?


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## Seer

Shepdad said:


> Outside of Sven Sindy Sando Alf, which lines do you like?


I like Alf thus Sven, its not a dislike. They are very common dogs in pedigree though, my comment was really in regards to freshness only. Line 13A is bottle necking quickly, thats all  V Rigo von der Schiebockmühle was a very very significant dog. Number three of all time and his son Fred the number one DDR dog. Between the two, their names are massed in the top 40 dogs of the GDR. Rigo & Fred where also 6/44 dogs, good sharpness and hardness. We could use quite a bit more like that today. I'll would trade a house on the beach in California for Rigo. Other then that, lol.. I don't have an opinion >


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## Shepdad

Those old Germans were tough graders on the Wertmessziffer System. Ingo was only a 7/33 yet he is probably the most influential DDR dog on today's WGWL, Czech and DDR lines. Most of the well known ones were 6/44. I think I saw a 6/54 once but I don't remember which dog now. For those wondering about the numbers.


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## thegooseman90

Shepdad said:


> Those old Germans were tough graders on the Wertmessziffer System. Ingo was only a 7/33 yet he is probably the most influential DDR dog on today's WGWL, Czech and DDR lines. Most of the well known ones were 6/44. I think I saw a 6/54 once but I don't remember which dog now. For those wondering about the numbers.


Yea I went thru my dogs pedigree a while back and a lot of them were 5/44 even a 6/43 or two. I was trying to find some 5/55 dogs but the ones I thought would be weren't. Have you found any?


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## Shepdad

The mother of Condor Marderpfahl was a 6/54. That dam's grandmother had Nestor W. in 3 influential places in her pedigree. Nestor of course was reputed to have put 2 German soldiers in the hospital when they tried to train him as a war dog in the front lines so they were about to shoot him but finally just sent him back. He's supposed to be the dog that Fero got his temperament from. Emphasis on temper.


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## thegooseman90

Golf v ritterberg is a 5/55. The one kor is 7/43 then at the bottom in parenthesis it specifies ddr kor 5/55.


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## Shepdad

A 5/55 must be the Holy Grail by implication. Golf has all of the good DDR blood of his time plus Bernd. The bloodline seems to have gone to Denmark, to Gharib Aesculap who was a good producer and of DDR type though his pedigree was mainly WGWL, mainly Grief z. Lahntal. A 100% DDR route was through Mentor Haus Iris, to Filou Kaolinsee, to Tino Felshenschloss. Filou was prolific and was also used extensively by other current DDR kennels. 

Lord's dam who was famous in her own right as a 2x DDR nationals working dog champion, Blacky was also a 6/54. Blacky's female tail line goes back to the famous Blasienberg herding kennel. That could be where the hunt drive originated from. A recent DDR stud whose pedigree I like a lot is Lux Kameruner Eck who is a Tino son and a Lord grandson. His dam female tail line also goes all the way back to von der Krone HGH in the very beginning of the GSD.


----------



## thegooseman90

Shepdad said:


> A 5/55 must be the Holy Grail by implication. Golf has all of the good DDR blood of his time plus Bernd. The bloodline seems to have gone to Denmark, to Gharib Aesculap who was a good producer and of DDR type though his pedigree was mainly WGWL, mainly Grief z. Lahntal. A 100% DDR route was through Mentor Haus Iris, to Filou Kaolinsee, to Tino Felshenschloss. Filou was prolific and was also used extensively by other current DDR kennels.
> 
> Lord's dam who was famous in her own right as a 2x DDR nationals working dog champion, Blacky was also a 6/54. Blacky's female tail line goes back to the famous Blasienberg herding kennel. That could be where the hunt drive originated from. A recent DDR stud whose pedigree I like a lot is Lux Kameruner Eck who is a Tino son and a Lord grandson. His dam female tail line also goes all the way back to von der Krone HGH in the very beginning of the GSD.


I would've thought mentor, Tino, and filou were in a lot of ddr pedigrees today. Theyre in my pedigree but mine seems to have went a different route towards the newer ddr - those bred mainly for size/looks. I honestly don't know when or which lines are considered to be new. My dam line is Czech but leads back to some ddr as well. Those others I don't recognize but I'll look them up a little later on. I'm wondering how long it took to move from some of the good old dogs into the newer types I hear about today and what strategy if any could be used to bring them back, or if your only option is to basically fuse in different lines.


----------



## Sunsilver

Shepdad said:


> A 5/55 must be the Holy Grail by implication. Golf has all of the good DDR blood of his time plus Bernd. The bloodline seems to have gone to Denmark, to Gharib Aesculap who was a good producer and of DDR type though his pedigree was mainly WGWL, mainly Grief z. Lahntal. A 100% DDR route was through Mentor Haus Iris, to Filou Kaolinsee, to Tino Felshenschloss. Filou was prolific and was also used extensively by other current DDR kennels.
> 
> Lord's dam who was famous in her own right as a 2x DDR nationals working dog champion, Blacky was also a 6/54. Blacky's female tail line goes back to the famous Blasienberg herding kennel. That could be where the hunt drive originated from. A recent DDR stud whose pedigree I like a lot is Lux Kameruner Eck who is a Tino son and a Lord grandson. His dam female tail line also goes all the way back to von der Krone HGH in the very beginning of the GSD.


Shepdad, I am curious to know how they came up with those figures for rating the dogs. What do they mean?


----------



## Seer

Shepdad said:


> A 5/55 must be the Holy Grail by implication. Golf has all of the good DDR blood of his time plus Bernd. The bloodline seems to have gone to Denmark, to Gharib Aesculap who was a good producer and of DDR type though his pedigree was mainly WGWL, mainly Grief z. Lahntal. A 100% DDR route was through Mentor Haus Iris, to Filou Kaolinsee, to Tino Felshenschloss. Filou was prolific and was also used extensively by other current DDR kennels.
> 
> Lord's dam who was famous in her own right as a 2x DDR nationals working dog champion, Blacky was also a 6/54. Blacky's female tail line goes back to the famous Blasienberg herding kennel. That could be where the hunt drive originated from. A recent DDR stud whose pedigree I like a lot is Lux Kameruner Eck who is a Tino son and a Lord grandson. His dam female tail line also goes all the way back to von der Krone HGH in the very beginning of the GSD.


The holy grail, lol. Sure anything in that ballpark is great compared to what we have in the line to work with today. We have some real nice line 12 dogs here in the US Lux being one, Germany also has unspoiled line 12 as well with The Old Lady Kennel. I have a Rasputin son that is a line 12 and is 5/5 on Golf. I dont follow the mixers that dog you mentioned Gharib Aesculap looks awful, but looks like that top line was getting much better in the third generation.


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## Shepdad

Sunsilver said:


> Shepdad, I am curious to know how they came up with those figures for rating the dogs. What do they mean?


That's the question right? What makes a 4 in sharpness different from a 5 in sharpness. That's called inter-rater reliability. If you give the same exam results, which is what a korung is, to 2 different people, one might give it a 4 and another one a 5. That's one reason we have novice judges shadow a more experienced judge in schutzhund. But after that it's very subjective of course, just like grading an essay exam. And just like students can say they had a bad day, a dog can have a bad day but I'm guessing that prior reputation also played a role.


----------



## Seer

Shepdad said:


> That's the question right? What makes a 4 in sharpness different from a 5 in sharpness. That's called inter-rater reliability. If you give the same exam results, which is what a korung is, to 2 different people, one might give it a 4 and another one a 5. That's one reason we have novice judges shadow a more experienced judge in schutzhund. But after that it's very subjective of course, just like grading an essay exam. And just like students can say they had a bad day, a dog can have a bad day but I'm guessing that prior reputation also played a role.


Good point and topic. To remove the inter-rater reliability issue the kor expired after two years. To ensure a pretty accurate numbering system an evaluation group or committee would have seen the dog three separate times through the age of five I believe. The number would be fixed then and final this is my understanding. Its a great system to get a snap shot of what the dog was about, especially without having ever seen the dog. I have heard they were not big on travel so this was a very functional system for assessing structure, power, type, nerve hardness and sharpness. 

Since Golf is current on topic lets break down his first kor. 544 7/43 With out ever seeing him we know that he is medium sized average dog. The five the first number relates to size as it relates to breed standard. Six would be powerful. Here we have 5. The second number relates to constitution or structural issues as I understand it. Golf's four here relates to temporal issues or defects. A five is ideal in this spot. So far a 54. The third number is our body type a five is excellent, Golf was given a 4, so minor issue with bone joints or spine not being ideal or excellent. So far 544. The next number relates to temperament, we have a 7, Golf is balanced or a relaxed dog whose friendly but also has some sensitives, most likely to strikes. A five is very good number here it would be a relaxed friendly dog but provoked takes no crap becomes very hard to the challenge. A six would be minus the very or hard when provoked. A four you don't walk up and pet the dog he is aggressive sharp and dangerous. Golf so far 544 7. The next number relates to sharpness with early Golf we have 4 so good sharpness. A five here is very good. Golf so far is a 544 7/4. The next is courage or hardness. Golf's initial kor is 3, this makes him sufficient. 4 being good courage and hardness with five being very good. Golfs early kor was 544 7/43, decent but needing improvement.

His final or permanent kor reflects what we should know him to be and hope to carry forward, an average sized dog (5) with ideal constitution (5), a little better then average angulation (4), he is relaxed & friendly but very hard when provoked (5) with very good sharpness (5) and very good courage (5) 5545/55 

Its a very good system in my opinion, ideal for the time.


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## Shepdad

Seer said:


> Germany also has unspoiled line 12 as well with The Old Lady Kennel. I have a Rasputin son that is a line 12 and is 5/5 on Golf.


The Old Lady kennel females' tail line goes straight back to Burg Fasanental herding dogs. That implies the breeder prioritizes balance rather than extremes. I like that. Who is Rasputin?


----------



## Shepdad

Seer said:


> Good point and topic. To remove the inter-rater reliability issue the kor expired after two years. To ensure a pretty accurate numbering system an evaluation group or committee would have seen the dog three separate times through the age of five I believe. The number would be fixed then and final this is my understanding. Its a great system to get a snap shot of what the dog was about, especially without having ever seen the dog. I have heard they were not big on travel so this was a very functional system for assessing structure, power, type, nerve hardness and sharpness.
> 
> Since Golf is current on topic lets break down his first kor. 544 7/43 With out ever seeing him we know that he is medium sized average dog. The five the first number relates to size as it relates to breed standard. Six would be powerful. Here we have 5. The second number relates to constitution or structural issues as I understand it. Golf's four here relates to temporal issues or defects. A five is ideal in this spot. So far a 54. The third number is our body type a five is excellent, Golf was given a 4, so minor issue with bone joints or spine not being ideal or excellent. So far 544. The next number relates to temperament, we have a 7, Golf is balanced or a relaxed dog whose friendly but also has some sensitives, most likely to strikes. A five is very good number here it would be a relaxed friendly dog but provoked takes no crap becomes very hard to the challenge. A six would be minus the very or hard when provoked. A four you don't walk up and pet the dog he is aggressive sharp and dangerous. Golf so far 544 7. The next number relates to sharpness with early Golf we have 4 so good sharpness. A five here is very good. Golf so far is a 544 7/4. The next is courage or hardness. Golf's initial kor is 3, this makes him sufficient. 4 being good courage and hardness with five being very good. Golfs early kor was 544 7/43, decent but needing improvement.
> 
> His final or permanent kor reflects what we should know him to be and hope to carry forward, an average sized dog (5) with ideal constitution (5), a little better then average angulation (4), he is relaxed & friendly but very hard when provoked (5) with very good sharpness (5) and very good courage (5) 5545/55
> 
> Its a very good system in my opinion, ideal for the time.


Thanks. That's very useful information. You can trust the Germans to be process oriented. I wonder how the numerical Czech system compares.


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## Seer

Rasputin vom Flossgraben


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## Shepdad

Handsome male. Tino son. His dam's female tail line also goes straight back to Burg Fasanental. How is your dog's hunt drive? I'm just trying to test a hypothesis.


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## cliffson1

Very productive discussion for many that are really interested in broadening their knowledge base. The old DDR system made a major contribution to the breed that is still felt today.....the most important, imo, is the quantitative analysis without the influence of commercial goals!


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## Sunsilver

Seer, thank you for the explanation of the DDR rating system. That is what I was looking for!


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## holland

This may be a stupid question but since Germany is just Germany now-what is happening to DDR dogs-is it now just german shepherds?


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## Sunsilver

Since the DDR dogs were already registered with the SV when Germany split after WWII, they have, AFAIK, been accepted back into the SV. I imagine owners would be required to submit proof of registration to make sure no one was trying to register an unregistered dog, as is required when any purebred dog is imported to another country, and changes registries as a result.


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## Seer

cliffson1 said:


> Very productive discussion for many that are really interested in broadening their knowledge base. The old DDR system made a major contribution to the breed that is still felt today.....the most important, imo, is the quantitative analysis without the influence of commercial goals!


Spot on. I would add to the analysis and lack of commercialism a focus and goal, without that all fails, one has to have an end goal. Despite or better yet, in spite of the making of war dogs the breed standard remained amazingly important. Health remained as a top priority. No organization will ever likely be able to boast the near perfect 95-98% ish good/excellent hip rating that Werner Dalm the breed warden if you will for the GDR, together with the breeders of the time managed to accomplished. That's a serious hat tip in and of itself. 

40 years of DDR mostly commercial free, unified, structured and refined breeding practices offers the clearest cleanest path (perhaps arguably even an improved bloodline) to the previously mostly commercial free blood of the dogs of yesteryear. For me and it may be a silly proposition for others, that is seriously a major important benefit that Werner and the breeders of the time, forwarded to us. One reason for poo pooing the haphazard thought process that we should use the bloodline as a fun mix and match tool without serious consideration and thought as to also preserving the East German lines for those to build upon as we have been afforded by Werner and the breeders under his control.


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## wolfstraum

I really get annoyed about this "there is no DDR so can't be DDR dogs now" position of so many....

In Arab horses, there are Polish horses, Crabbett horses, straight Egyptian horses....does not matter where they are born....they can be breed in the US for 5 generations and still be straight Egyptian by lineage...and occasionally a stallion will be exported to a big farm in Egypt and there is no problem calling him Egyptian because his lineage is and he can be used in breeding programs. So even though these dogs are bred here or in Germany post DDR, their lineage going back in every line of the pedigree to DDR registry and without WGWL thrown in, are still DDR dogs.


Lee


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## Seer

holland said:


> This may be a stupid question but since Germany is just Germany now-what is happening to DDR dogs-is it now just german shepherds?



Two sides to the wall  The line split into East and West. Today some prefer the West German Shepherd and others prefer the East German Shepherd each unique. Each with their own flavor.


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## Shepdad

Wolfstraum is right. It is simple minded when some people say there are no more DDR dogs because the DDR doesn't exist any longer as a political entity. It is a category for a type of Working line based on lineage and pedigree (what this subforum is all about) that is visibly expressed in external morphology - type. 

Same reasoning why we do not call GSDs who have been bred in the U.S. for generations as American shepherds - we still call them _German_ shepherds (common name, the formal name is German Shepherd's Dog). It is the name of the breed. So when we refer to DDR GSDs, it is the name of the type within the breed. It is within Working Lines which is a Line within the breed. This is a form of _taxonomy_ which scientists use in categorizing all living things such as dogs being in the species of Canis Lupus, same species as the Wolf, and specifically a category within Canis Lupus, a subspecies called Canis Lupus Familiaris. And within Canis Lupus Familiaris we have the breeds. Within the GSD breed, we have the Lines. Within the working lines, we have the types. (though Douglas prefers to call them styles.) Taxonomy is a practical application of Epistomology, something I teach my PhD graduate students in the first day of class.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS everyone, great discussion.


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## Seer

I have a slightly differing opinion on the DDR dog. Originally the name seemed like the best fit to describe the dogs line, I also used it to describe my own dogs and breeding's however now I use East Line. Without a Werner and the system that was, with no one (including myself) breeding to the exacting system of the DDR, with most advertising & marketing DDR dogs but having no resemblance in trait, working ability, often structure and DDR dogs so far back, deep in the pedigree, it became a marketing ploy. One side of the argument was just people who disliked the line for whatever reason and insisted it no longer exists, the other side many using the name to boost sales but having almost no DDR line knowledge. I have seen thousands of pedigrees advertised also as DDR but mostly mixed working line or all Czech line and usually used just for the sales boost. A disservice. East line fits better for me.


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## cliffson1

All of the lines need to be refreshed with “ lines” outside of them, which really renders lines as a means to balance or compensation,at least for the truly elite breeders, imo.


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## Seer

@Cliff

Absolutely agree, however mixing for the sake of mixing has become cool though, and that's not cool (As you know but for others) there are lines within the DDR line that can freshen. Mixing a line 5A dog with line 12 or 11C accomplishes the same goal. Bernd Lierberg being an excellent example. Choose type and use extreme prejudice. 

Does the dog fit into the DDR concept and bring the desired traits that are wanting improvement? Line compatibility? The P litter the breeding to Kessa a good example. Kessa's father line is Rolf vom Osnabrücker Land's line in fact she is 5, 4-5 on Rolf so Rolf bloodline top and bottom. Bernd is Rolf bloodline as well and Bernd is line bred 4-5 on *VA2 Lex Preußenblut *Rolf's sire so Lex top and bottom father line. That's two much coincidence that looks like straight father line breeding system so while the blood was refreshed the concept was kept secure, and that was a kick ash litter.


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## cliffson1

Seer said:


> @Cliff
> 
> Absolutely agree, however mixing for the sake of mixing has become cool though, and that's not cool (As you know but for others) there are lines within the DDR line that can freshen. Mixing a line 5A dog with line 12 or 11C accomplishes the same goal. Bernd Lierberg being an excellent example. Choose type and use extreme prejudice.
> 
> Does the dog fit into the DDR concept and bring the desired traits that are wanting improvement? Line compatibility? The P litter the breeding to Kessa a good example. Kessa's father line is Rolf vom Osnabrücker Land's line in fact she is 5, 4-5 on Rolf so Rolf bloodline top and bottom. Bernd is Rolf bloodline as well and Bernd is line bred 4-5 on *VA2 Lex Preußenblut *Rolf's sire so Lex top and bottom father line. That's two much coincidence that looks like straight father line breeding system so while the blood was refreshed the concept was kept secure, and that was a kick ash litter.


That’s why I said refreshing for balance and compensation and not for sake of mixing?


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## Shepdad

The numbered lines that DDR and Czech used were based on sire tail lines. In a way, it makes sense since popular sires can have literally thousands of offspring whilst dams can only have a few dozen at best. So in terms of organization, it's a way to have some organizing principles to simplify things and not result in a chaotic mess of pedigrees. However, it is very limited and overgeneralized and may lead to worse instead of better breeding decisions and combinations. 

To me the expertise of breeders really show when they have in-depth knowledge of the females in the pedigrees. It is the females precisely because they are more in number that provide the genetic diversity that is needed to keep lines fresh and also retain desired characteristics and compensate for less desired ones that are exacerbated by popularity of sires. As we've seen in previous posts, it is temperament, especially nerves, which are easiest to lose in the generations while type, specifically phenotype is relatively easier to recover. The Germans knew this since the start of the breed, that's why they used sires, especially in the declarations of siegers and VAs to set desired phenotype, then used precious females to recover the inevitable loss of temperament. When we study famous kennels we often see the master breeders having an obsession about keeping working ability in their breeding females. Many a famed kennel had a foundation female that set the tone for entire generations.


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## Shepdad

*Genetic gold mines*

Genetic gold mines. There are some dogs out there that some have called genetic gold mines for the way they pooled good blood from the generations of GSDs since the start of the breed.

An obvious example: Don Haus Himpel. 2,2 Bernd Lierberg, meaning half-siblings were bred. Line breeding that would make most people cringe for good reason. And probably the only reason to do it was because he was only the greatest GSD in the history of the breed and people in Europe at that time knew it too. Enough reason to drill a hole in the Iron Curtain as dedicated DDR breeders in East Germany somehow found a way to breed their best females to a dog in West Germany at the height of the Cold War when Soviet and American tanks faced each other in Berlin.

Bernd Lierberg - Working ability from his dam, Betty Eningsfeld, whose sire Arko was a 2x winner of the BSP when schutzhund was a dog focused breed test instead of a handler focused point sports. Conformation and stability from his sire line of Vello straight back to Rolf and Lex.

Kessa Haus Himpel - 2x DDR Siegerin in '67 and '68 in the era when there were no showlines and no working lines. They were all the same lines. Daughter of Condor Falkenwappen, 2x DDR Sieger. 3,3 Ali Granert, a dog credited with the strongest contribution to working ability in the DDR lines.

In 1969, Bernd and Kessa were bred across the Iron Curtain to produce Pushkaß vom Haus Himpel.

A year before that, Bernd was bred to Otty Haus Himpel to produce the gorgeous Halla Haus Himpel who would later become DDR Siegerin herself in '70. Otty was the daughter of 3x DDR Sieger Grief Felsenstein. The Haus Himpel kennel was one of the famed kennels in Europe that had consistently kept its females with lines that went directly back to the legendary Burg Fasanental kennels of HGH dogs and working farm dogs of the 30s to the beginning of the breed. Dogs that were used to bring working ability to the trophy dog lines of Horand.

So Pushkass and Halla were the result of breeding the best to the best. The best of the West to the best of the East.

Then Pushkass and Halla, half-siblings, were themselves mated to produce Don Haus Himpel in 1971. His koer evaluation using the DDR Wertmessziffer numerical rating system was a very rare 5/55. relaxed, friendly, very hard when provoked / very good sharpness very good hardness. This was the ideal rating, the highest achievable in the system.

Don was mated to Blanca Borntal, a DDR HGH female. The mating led to a granddaughter Cessy Buscheke. Cessy produced Iwo Buscheke. Iwo was the most successful of the 7 DDR dogs imported by the z PS border patrol government kennels in the 80s to improve the Czech lines some of which date back to the beginning of the breed.

Iwo produced Kaso z PS in '88. Kaso was mated to a daughter of Gomo Schieferschloß, one of the 7 DDR dogs. Gomo was himself 3 -3 Burga Haus Himpel. Burga was another 2,2 Bernd Lierberg, son of a littermate of Halla who we discussed above. The mating produced Tina z PS, considerd one of the best z PS bitches.

Tina was bred to Ben Bolfu, grandson of Bojar Schotterhof, another one of the 7 DDR imports, to produce Grim z PS, who would be considered one of the best Czech dogs and is one of the pillars of today's Czech lines.

Kaso was also bred to Majka z Blatenskeho Zamku, a great granddaughter of Burga Haus Himpel who we discussed above. And a granddaughter of of Bojar. Her sire was Lars Furstendam another DDR dog. Majka was mated to Cordon An-Sat to produce Tom z PS, another dog considered one of the best and that is considered one of the pillars of today's Czech lines.


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## Heartandsoul

That completely explains my question of why I saw so many close breedings while I was looking way back in the thread I started. Thank you.


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## cliffson1

I view this period of DDR dogs a little differently. To me Ingo v Rudigen was without question the most influential ddr dog of that period and possibly second to only the B litter Lierberg in overall influence for the good of the breed. From Ingo we get Held v Ritterberg, also a dog linebred 2-2 on Burga v Haus Himpel. From Held we get foundation blood in the DDR dogs that were brought in to influence the three Czech breeding stations. Held produced also excellent structure and working ability...he sired a Conformation Seigrein to go along with top working stock. His sire was Ingo. 
Lord v Gleisdreick, one of the top sires in DDR and West working lines was also grandson of Ingo through Jeff v Flamings Sand. Lastly, Ingo also sired Robby v Glockeneck, a dog used in Germany in Holland for working traits. Also Ingo produced Viktor vd Edelquelle, also prominent in DDR and some Czech pedigrees.
Btw, Axa was the dam of Tom z PS. She was a daughter of Kaso, and provided the foundation of Tom through Klara z PS. Just some thoughts.


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## Shepdad

Forgot to attach this to the end of my last post, video of Tom z PS. To me this is ideal behavior of a stable, under control dog that can also bring it on upon command.


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## Shepdad

cliffson1 said:


> Btw, Axa was the dam of Tom z PS. She was a daughter of Kaso, and provided the foundation of Tom through Klara z PS. Just some thoughts.


Thanks Cliffson1. You are correct, I was confused by the generations of Majca and Axa. Axa is the daughter of Majca.

It does seem that who ever made the decisions to bring those specific 7 DDR dogs to the former Czechoslovakia certainly knew what they were doing.

I'm a big fan of Ingo myself and itis very interesting that just as Bernd improved the DDR and Cezch lines; Ingo improved the WGWL and Czech lines.
Interesting that Ingo was closely line bred on Ex who was closely line bred on Ali; and Ali brought together the best qualities of Rolf and Nestor. Ingo's mother lines go back to HGH dogs. So perhaps the ideal balance.


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## cliffson1

My good friend bred Tom when Cordon was at his kennel for two years. He also handled Kaso as LE dog, and owned Axa.


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## Shepdad

cliffson1 said:


> My good friend bred Tom when Cordon was at his kennel for two years. He also handled Kaso as LE dog, and owned Axa.


I have a guess on who your good friend is but it's just a guess.


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## Shepdad

I certainly like this period when somehow good blood found ways through the Iron Curtain such as Bernd genes to the DDR; and Ingo genes to the Netherlands. It's almost like a James Bond thriller, at least for GSD nerds. Certainly from a story telling aspect I find it more compelling.


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## cliffson1

Another person who is treasure trove on DDR dogs in this period is Carmspack. Through her relationship with Joe Kuhns ( not sure about brother Adam) and her having old DDR dogs in her lines, she understands the true nature of these dogs. Joe had a vast amount of knowledge of DDR dogs as well as owning and importing them. When you are able to spend many many hours discussing these dogs, asking informed questions based on looking/working these dogs, then you start to get understanding of what they are both phenotype and genotype.


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## SentinelHarts

Sunsilver said:


> Shepdad, I've heard Carmen sing this same song, and would like to know what is it exactly that the herding lines contribute to the nerve base? IOW, now that it's very difficult to find a real working herding dog, how can you identify dogs that have the needed temperament to stabilize the nerve base?
> 
> Would a current HGH certified dog have the needed character? Or have the HGH standards changed too much for that?


The criterion of the HGH has not changed much at all over the years. It is my opinion that successful herding dogs are "thinking" dogs. Dogs that succeed in herding must problem solve and make decisions that are formed from the training they have received but in an ever changing scenario. They often perform at great distances from the handler and often without direction. The dog must use fair and appropriate pressure in any given situation and refrain from indulging themselves on their desire to "chase sheep" simply because the opportunity presents itself. I agree with the theory that breeders would benefit from handling their dogs in more than one venue.


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## cliffson1

SentinelHarts said:


> The criterion of the HGH has not changed much at all over the years. It is my opinion that successful herding dogs are "thinking" dogs. Dogs that succeed in herding must problem solve and make decisions that are formed from the training they have received but in an ever changing scenario. They often perform at great distances from the handler and often without direction. The dog must use fair and appropriate pressure in any given situation and refrain from indulging themselves on their desire to "chase sheep" simply because the opportunity presents itself. I agree with the theory that breeders would benefit from handling their dogs in more than one venue.


I agree that the HGH degree has not changed much, but there has been a separation in true herding lines and dogs with HGH title in many cases. Also, there are many Herding titles outside of Germany that do not require a dog to work outside of fences or boundaries, or on less than 10 sheep. If a dog only works sheep within confines of fences( and small areas at that), then some of the core traits of the true herding lines became lost as the dog not only doesn’t have need to develop these traits, but also can’t be recognized if the dog is not good candidate for these traits. So herding today is really more training of person to dog to perform task in enclosed area, then it is of dog using genetic traits of the breed to handle thinking situations that occur outside enclosed area.


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## WIBackpacker

cliffson1 said:


> I agree that the HGH degree has not changed much, but there has been a separation in true herding lines and dogs with HGH title in many cases. Also, there are many Herding titles outside of Germany that do not require a dog to work outside of fences or boundaries, or on less than 10 sheep. If a dog only works sheep within confines of fences( and small areas at that), then some of the core traits of the true herding lines became lost as the dog not only doesn’t have need to develop these traits, but also can’t be recognized if the dog is not good candidate for these traits. *So herding today is really more training of person to dog to perform task in enclosed area*, then it is of dog using genetic traits of the breed to handle thinking situations that occur outside enclosed area.


I'm sorry Cliff but this simply isn't true.

Yes, someone can _choose_ to only do single, small arena work with their dog.

There are other people who choose do varied tasks. Across different venues, multiple areas, including asking the dog to work multiple species.

Sheep don't work like goats, goats don't work like cattle, and nothing on four legs works like a duck. To be successful, the dog must work with the handler and it must think independently and constantly adjust.

When it comes to trialing, two of the larger competitive herding venues in the USA already have "ranch" style courses where multiple areas have to be part of the trial, otherwise the judge won't approve the course. Some require three or more areas. The course cannot exist within one fenced space, only. The third large competitive venue just approved adding a ranch course last year.

Yes, a casual observer will see fences at almost every trial. Fences keep everyone safe. But if you read closely, or ask someone experienced to explain, many courses (especially at mid and upper levels) have boundaries where, should the stock run past, they are considered "escaped" and the run is terminated or DQ'd. This tests the ability of a dog to stay within invisible boundaries. If the sheep get to the physical fence, the dog has already failed.

Just because many GSD owners choose not to test their dogs across the varied trial venues available in the USA does not mean that the opportunities do not exist.


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## Jenny720

WIbackpacker- Like!!!!!! I think the challenge is in training for new inexperienced handlers to let the dog naturally work.


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## mspiker03

I guess I kinda disagree that all non HGH herding is just training and not letting a dog think. And maybe I won't say this as well. I mean, yes the dogs are trained to take stock to pens and sort and follow direction. But I often hear my trainer say "let her figure it out, just wait" or after my dog has done work that I want it is "let her drive the sheep" and she gets to make decisions. So, at least in my experience - the decision making process isn't lost because the dogs work in an arena. Anyway - that is just my experience and others may have different ones.


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## mspiker03

WIBackpacker said:


> I'm sorry Cliff but this simply isn't true.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, someone can _choose_ to only do single, small arena work with their dog.
> 
> 
> 
> There are other people who choose do varied tasks. Across different venues, multiple areas, including asking the dog to work multiple species.
> 
> 
> 
> Sheep don't work like goats, goats don't work like cattle, and nothing on four legs works like a duck. To be successful, the dog must work with the handler and it must think independently and constantly adjust.
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to trialing, two of the larger competitive herding venues in the USA already have "ranch" style courses where multiple areas have to be part of the trial, otherwise the judge won't approve the course. Some require three or more areas. The course cannot exist within one fenced space, only. The third large competitive venue just approved adding a ranch course last year.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a casual observer will see fences at almost every trial. Fences keep everyone safe. But if you read closely, or ask someone experienced to explain, many courses (especially at mid and upper levels) have boundaries where, should the stock run past, they are considered "escaped" and the run is terminated or DQ'd. This tests the ability of a dog to stay within invisible boundaries. If the sheep get to the physical fence, the dog has already failed.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because many GSD owners choose not to test their dogs across the varied trial venues available in the USA does not mean that the opportunities do not exist.



Agree. You said a lot of what I was thinking but didn't feel I could write it out. My favorite course was when I lived in San Diego and it was large flock. Started in an arena. Moved to a different arena. Pen work. Sorting. Field work. Went for a walk around the property. Graze. And back to the pen. But I have also done controlled large arena work and open field work with a small number of stock. It is fun to vary it up.


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## cliffson1

WIBackpacker said:


> I'm sorry Cliff but this simply isn't true.
> 
> Yes, someone can _choose_ to only do single, small arena work with their dog.
> 
> There are other people who choose do varied tasks. Across different venues, multiple areas, including asking the dog to work multiple species.
> 
> Sheep don't work like goats, goats don't work like cattle, and nothing on four legs works like a duck. To be successful, the dog must work with the handler and it must think independently and constantly adjust.
> 
> When it comes to trialing, two of the larger competitive herding venues in the USA already have "ranch" style courses where multiple areas have to be part of the trial, otherwise the judge won't approve the course. Some require three or more areas. The course cannot exist within one fenced space, only. The third large competitive venue just approved adding a ranch course last year.
> 
> Yes, a casual observer will see fences at almost every trial. Fences keep everyone safe. But if you read closely, or ask someone experienced to explain, many courses (especially at mid and upper levels) have boundaries where, should the stock run past, they are considered "escaped" and the run is terminated or DQ'd. This tests the ability of a dog to stay within invisible boundaries. If the sheep get to the physical fence, the dog has already failed.
> 
> Just because many GSD owners choose not to test their dogs across the varied trial venues available in the USA does not mean that the opportunities do not exist.


Then tell me the lines today that show the genetic herding instinct and biddability that the old true herding lines had. Also, how many dogs are used in HGH trial?., outside of Germany how many trials test sheep on this comparable number?( maybe two in America, NJ & NY, not sure if Ulf is still active or what he left in NJ)
The difference in number of sheep and trialing without boundaries is profound. 
I understand all the reasons ( safety,etc) for the fences and small number of stock used in most Herding venues in America, but it does affect critical aspects of using important working traits. Just like generations of only training dogs that do bitework on sleeves only will start to filter in certain aspects of increasing some drives at the extent of others.


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## WIBackpacker

Cliff,

My comment above was to correct some common (the bolded) misinformation that gets repeated over and over across the internet. Most often, by people who read online or watch video but don't dig deeper and wade into the thick of it. 

I don't care to draw conclusions or look down on something I have not put my own hands on. :shrug: 

Some GSDs are succeeding in each and every herding venue in this country, many others are not. 

I don't dispense judgement on sleeves or suits. If I were to write a lengthy criticism of sleeve use, from my extremely limited in-person experience, I would absolutely expect someone to point out any incorrect blanket statements I was making. 

By contrast, many people who have never owned livestock or actually worked dogs on livestock write out assumptions and let fly. 

It's a humbling endeavor and there is always more to learn. But the opportunity to really work dogs, and test them HARD, is absolutely out there.


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> outside of Germany how many trials test sheep on this comparable number?( maybe two in America, NJ & NY, not sure if Ulf is still active or what he left in NJ)



My Kira was the youngest dog in the US and one of the last dogs to get an HGH in NJ - the club was a WDA affiliated club for that trial....after that trial, there was such a public display of warfare and animosity and downright nastiness from the owner of the USCA club, that the NJ guy who owned the sheep (that he bought from Ulf and took over the property lease!) disbanded the club and sold all the sheep at auction.....The SV authorized the last trial, recognized it and approved the flock for the trial (197 sheep rather than 200.....the judge said it was sufficient and the flock owner did not have to go buy 3 more sheep even though he offered). After the trial the phone lines to Germany were smoking, and the NY guy was told to mind his own business and the trial was indeed a valid trial!!!! My dog was in it so I was kept in the loop on the discussions!

I had someone else train my dog who had been herding for several years and I personally know nothing about herding training....Herr Scheld and I had talked and he felt my female Csabre had good genetics for herding so I sent off a pup from her second and last litter and am sad that I was not able to get Kira a koer under him as he liked Csabre and Kyra so much! 

So now, as before, there is only 1 venue in the US to get an HGH and it is tightly controlled as to who can train and trial.....such a shame.

Lee


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## Sunsilver

If Ulf sold his sheep, Wolfstraum, what is that venu?


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## wolfstraum

he bought more sheep and moved to the Finger Lakes area


Lee


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## cliffson1

WIBackpacker said:


> Cliff,
> 
> My comment above was to correct some common (the bolded) misinformation that gets repeated over and over across the internet. Most often, by people who read online or watch video but don't dig deeper and wade into the thick of it.
> 
> I don't care to draw conclusions or look down on something I have not put my own hands on. :shrug:
> 
> Some GSDs are succeeding in each and every herding venue in this country, many others are not.
> 
> I don't dispense judgement on sleeves or suits. If I were to write a lengthy criticism of sleeve use, from my extremely limited in-person experience, I would absolutely expect someone to point out any incorrect blanket statements I was making.
> 
> By contrast, many people who have never owned livestock or actually worked dogs on livestock write out assumptions and let fly.
> 
> It's a humbling endeavor and there is always more to learn. But the opportunity to really work dogs, and test them HARD, is absolutely out there.


Wibackpacker, 
I will kindly defer to your comments.
Btw, I have a good personal friend who is a Herding instructor, owns her own sheep( about 50) has two different courses set up on her farm. She breeds BCs and has grand national champion but she trains many breeds, GS, Corgi, Shellie’s, BCs in Herding privately. Every time I get a pup, that I’m raising for LE, at between 6-10 months I take them over to her farm to have them tested on sheep. She really likes my pups because she says they always are very sound between the ears. About 10 years ago I got a female that I took over at about 5 months of age. She liked this puppy so much that she asked could she handle the pup in competition as she had retired from competition a few years back after finishing her BC with grand national championship. She just gushed over the dog’s biddability and instinctive traits. She handled her for six months until she had a near fatal accident. This female pup she liked was a pure DDR girl who was linebred on Herding champions and whose grandmother was the vice Herding national champion of Germany. I was aware of these genetics that’s why I got the female, but the pup was from true herding lines and when put in with actual sheep demonstrated stuff that was very much instinctive and intuitive....all my other dogs did alright with heavy instruction from the instructor but this girl was magic. Could be just a coincidence, as I read more on the forum, but this is from my limited exposure to sheep.
Anyway, I only really was trying to convey that their are some strong Herding traits in some of the DDR lines that are built on Herding stock, being as I have bred and trained DDR dogs over the years.


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## mspiker03

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that some dogs have greater natural instinct to work stock. I mean, I have seen that with my own dogs that I have trained and titled. My female who is bred from an HGH titled motherline has hands down more natural ability than my previously titled dogs. And honestly It is truly amazing to watch.

It is the thought that people have that somehow arena work doesn't require dogs to think and use their natural abilities. Since I took my dog herding today, I will use examples from today. When my dog was doing a gather/fetch and we then went on a walk around the arena I had my back to the sheep and she did her own thing back there without me looking at her. It is her job to keep the goats from peeling off to the draw. And later on - she got to drive them around the arena without any commands. She drove them where she wanted. She worked a larger group of goats (20+ I don't know). She put them through an obstacle and one didn't go through (not something I corrected because I was just letting her work). But she knew to keep an eye on the one goat that went off to the right - which was also the side of the obstacle where the draw was. And even though she would go back around to the main group. She kept checking on that one goat until it was back with the pack.

To me - arena work and pen work is just different than HGH. Of course GSD's were bred for HGH, but getting that title is unrealistic for 99% of us. And just because it isn't available, doesn't mean the other is inferior. Just different. The dogs still have to use instinct to succeed. And kudos to all those GSD owners and handlers beating border collies at their own game


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## cliffson1

mspiker03 said:


> I don't think anyone is disagreeing that some dogs have greater natural instinct to work stock. I mean, I have seen that with my own dogs that I have trained and titled. My female who is bred from an HGH titled motherline has hands down more natural ability than my previously titled dogs. And honestly It is truly amazing to watch.
> 
> It is the thought that people have that somehow arena work doesn't require dogs to think and use their natural abilities. Since I took my dog herding today, I will use examples from today. When my dog was doing a gather/fetch and we then went on a walk around the arena I had my back to the sheep and she did her own thing back there without me looking at her. It is her job to keep the goats from peeling off to the draw. And later on - she got to drive them around the arena without any commands. She drove them where she wanted. She worked a larger group of goats (20+ I don't know). She put them through an obstacle and one didn't go through (not something I corrected because I was just letting her work). But she knew to keep an eye on the one goat that went off to the right - which was also the side of the obstacle where the draw was. And even though she would go back around to the main group. She kept checking on that one goat until it was back with the pack.
> 
> To me - arena work and pen work is just different than HGH. Of course GSD's were bred for HGH, but getting that title is unrealistic for 99% of us. And just because it isn't available, doesn't mean the other is inferior. Just different. The dogs still have to use instinct to succeed. And kudos to all those GSD owners and handlers beating border collies at their own game


I don’t remember saying that Herding trials in America DOESNT require a dog to think, I thought I was commenting on DDR dogs that have true herding lines and have intuitive and instinctive traits that are being lost to the breed. I guess it’s like the other breed qualification title in Germany, IPO/Sch, all GS in Germany are trained to the title( which requires thinking and training) but there is still a differentiation between German dogs that are bred for IPO, and ones that aren’t. At the club level of IPO, you won’t see any difference, but at regional and national levels where the trial is harder, you will see clear delineation in the genetic type of dogs that are successful. So as I thought we were discussing some dogs have genetic disposition to herd and that some DDR lines have a clear aptitude for this, I was in no way saying that the Herding in the states DOESNT require thinking. I personally feel that all dogs or people exhibit thinking in situations, I don’t think everyone or dog has aptitude for everything presented to them. Anyway, thanks for the input, though I feel the focus of my thoughts were not what I was trying to convey....but hey, sometimes I should just shuddup and learn.&#55357;&#56898;


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## Shepdad

SentinelHarts said:


> The criterion of the HGH has not changed much at all over the years. It is my opinion that successful herding dogs are "thinking" dogs. Dogs that succeed in herding must problem solve and make decisions that are formed from the training they have received but in an ever changing scenario. They often perform at great distances from the handler and often without direction. The dog must use fair and appropriate pressure in any given situation and refrain from indulging themselves on their desire to "chase sheep" simply because the opportunity presents itself. I agree with the theory that breeders would benefit from handling their dogs in more than one venue.


Hi SentinelHarts. I really like the lines of O'Riley. How is she on sheep?


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## Shepdad

I don't think many of today's good herding dogs would do well as top level IPO or as dual patrol LE. Part of the reason is very high thresholds. My DDR female with lines probably like Cliffson's had a high defense drive as you would expect from DDR, but had high thresholds for humans before this drive got activated. The thresholds were lower for wild animals like coyotes. And it makes perfect sense. Herding lines also tend to be non-dog aggressive because HGH stye tending can often involve two or more dogs.

My female had low thresholds for her prey drive to be activated. But self-control and a calm, level head were always preeminent. Drive leakage, need to cap drives - nah - did not even remotely exist in her makeup. Grips were always, deep, calm and firm - no thrashing, no shaking, no growling. She had a sister who was a decent IPO club dog but clearly not the type for what sport judges want to see these days in the high trials. IPO obedience was a bit flat and needed some work although always aced the tracking. In a way, good herding lines almost seem too calm by today's standards even when their drive is at a high level.

Perhaps not dual purpose LE, but I think fabulous as single purpose tracking and scent dogs. My female also had a sister who was a bomb detection dog at a port. I have always thought there was a very strong genetic and biological connection between herding and tracking/scenting. And it has something to do with the brain of the dog.

Some people would have considered my dog soft because she was extremely sensitive to my voice. Listening to every tone and emotion. Worked as well as a leash for her purposes. Perhaps this is really necessary because the dog has to keep its eye on the sheep yet prick its ears toward its owner's voice. Yet when her defense drive for man was activated and her coyote prey/defense drive was on, was not a soft dog at all.


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## Sunsilver

Shepdad, I've been researching HGH pedigrees, and notice that there will be a long line of dogs with FH titles, and no herding tiles, then, BOOM! Out of nowhere up pops an HGH dog, and maybe even a BLH sieger/siegerin!

Here's a good example: Fanny vom Hexengrund

Click on the numbers at the top of the pedigree to see the whole story, going back many generations. You will see herding titles only on a small number of dogs at the bottom of the dam's pedigree, but a very high percentage of the dogs in the sire's side, and the dam's sire's side have FH titles.

However, the slim line of HGH titles on the dam's side keeps going back...and back...and back, to the very first herding dogs registered in the breed. 

And people will tell you genetics don't matter after about the first three to five generations??

I think they need to look at more pedigrees...:grin2:


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## Sunsilver

Okay, I SHOULD have said 'Seemingly out of nowhere..' because to say 'out of nowhere' contradicts the rest of my post!

Unfortunately, the edit window timed out on me.


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## Shepdad

Sunsilver said:


> Shepdad, I've been researching HGH pedigrees, and notice that there will be a long line of dogs with FH titles, and no herding tiles, then, BOOM! Out of nowhere up pops an HGH dog, and maybe even a BLH sieger/siegerin!
> 
> Here's a good example: Fanny vom Hexengrund
> 
> Click on the numbers at the top of the pedigree to see the whole story, going back many generations. You will see herding titles only on a small number of dogs at the bottom of the dam's pedigree, but a very high percentage of the dogs in the sire's side, and the dam's sire's side have FH titles.
> 
> However, the slim line of HGH titles on the dam's side keeps going back...and back...and back, to the very first herding dogs registered in the breed.
> 
> And people will tell you genetics don't matter after about the first three to five generations??
> 
> I think they need to look at more pedigrees...:grin2:


Yes, I have seen that phenomenon many times as well. I think it comes down through trait selection. And it so happens that a brain that processes multiple data simultaneously well to make a good herding dog is also the type of brain that is good processing multiple data points simultaneously when tracking or scenting. Most dogs probably have the olfactory physiology to take in thousands of scent data per second but it is the capacity of its brain to process that data that makes the difference. As well as the calmness in work and ability to focus; and the persistent not peaky drive, that just keeps going and going because it is so well contained. I used to tell my wife that my herding dog had better focus than any of my graduate students.


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## cliffson1

Shepdad said:


> I don't think many of today's good herding dogs would do well as top level IPO or as dual patrol LE. Part of the reason is very high thresholds. My DDR female with lines probably like Cliffson's had a high defense drive as you would expect from DDR, but had high thresholds for humans before this drive got activated. The thresholds were lower for wild animals like coyotes. And it makes perfect sense. Herding lines also tend to be non-dog aggressive because HGH stye tending can often involve two or more dogs.
> 
> My female had low thresholds for her prey drive to be activated. But self-control and a calm, level head were always preeminent. Drive leakage, need to cap drives - nah - did not even remotely exist in her makeup. Grips were always, deep, calm and firm - no thrashing, no shaking, no growling. She had a sister who was a decent IPO club dog but clearly not the type for what sport judges want to see these days in the high trials. IPO obedience was a bit flat and needed some work although always aced the tracking. In a way, good herding lines almost seem too calm by today's standards even when their drive is at a high level.
> 
> Perhaps not dual purpose LE, but I think fabulous as single purpose tracking and scent dogs. My female also had a sister who was a bomb detection dog at a port. I have always thought there was a very strong genetic and biological connection between herding and tracking/scenting. And it has something to do with the brain of the dog.
> 
> Some people would have considered my dog soft because she was extremely sensitive to my voice. Listening to every tone and emotion. Worked as well as a leash for her purposes. Perhaps this is really necessary because the dog has to keep its eye on the sheep yet prick its ears toward its owner's voice. Yet when her defense drive for man was activated and her coyote prey/defense drive was on, was not a soft dog at all.


Exactly....these traits were often found in older DDR lines that had high Herding aptitude....many of these dogs were only titled to FH( the most difficult tracking title mostly female), for title requirements for breeding in DDR.


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## SentinelHarts

Shepdad said:


> Hi SentinelHarts. I really like the lines of O'Riley. How is she on sheep?


O'Riley is a very willing dog, she has a good amount of drive and stays engaged while remaining receptive to direction. She learns quickly, is not overly sensitive to correction and very much enjoys the work. She earned her Herding Excellent title in 11 months (from start of training to title)


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## SentinelHarts

in regards to O'Riley- 
I should add that I have held back three O'Riley daughters. Two are sired by Gerry von Weltwitz. Ember and Envy von SentinelHarts. Ember was trained and titled to HXAsd by Molly Wisecarver. Envy is currently in training with Ulf Kintzel and will trial this year in October for her HGH title. Envy shows a lot of her mother's qualities in herding, she is willing, has good drive and nerve, is receptive to correction and bounces back quickly. She is not dog aggressive and is social with people. Envy also has her mother's structure with a little less bone. Ember is similar in temperament, perhaps a bit softer but very talented in working sheep. The third daughter is O'Hara von SentinelHarts, sired by Vilko von der Feuersaule, who I call Scarlett. Scarlett earned her IPO 1 a few months back and has not been worked on sheep at all yet.


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## Real dogs

Shepdad said:


> The question of the origin of "DDR type" external morphology has intrigued me recently. First let me define DDR type here as relatively big bones, relatively big heads, and dark pigmentation usually expressed in dark or black sable, or bicolors. (Though icons of the type like Ali Granert, Ingo R., and Lord G. were strongly pigmented B&T saddlebacks but that's curiously becoming rare in the type.) Strong backs with moderate angulation and smooth gait, not straight legged. Not oversized but well within standard and strongly muscled and athletic,mostly dry but not necessarily, maybe even long coat. Controversially reputed for good hips and general health.
> 
> Usually found in DDR dogs but also appearing with regularity in Czech dogs, as we all know their links to DDR; and increasingly in WGWL as well, as the market demand for the type has increased in the last 15 years or so. I am not discussing temperament type here just appearance. Below is a photo of what I would consider archetypal: Condor Marderpfahl, a late 60s DDR Seiger. Almost all of today's top sires of the type are very similar to him.
> 
> Having looked at dozens of DDR and Czech pedigrees, the dog that might seem like a good candidate for the origin of the type is VA Baldur vom Befreiungsplatz, b. 1937, grey sable. Google translation of the koer: "Low, very typical, dry, solid male with good symmetry and clear gaits. Good attentive being. Recommended for females with a normal building and for family breeding on the ancestors mentioned under (*) VI 2." I have no idea what V1 2 is and if anyone knows, I would appreciate the info. Another "typey" dog that I almost always see in these peds is V Rigo von der Schiebockmühle, b. 1952, dark sable, who was 3-3 on Baldur. Google translated koer: "Good medium-sized, medium-sized male with a distinctive head and very good expression, with a good running top line, where the back could be even firmer in the trot. Good angulations of the fore and hindquarters, free aisles in walking and trotting. In the nature safe and open-minded with good sharpness and hardness."
> 
> First pic left to right, top to bottom is Condor, followed by Baldur, then Rigo.


Hi there I'm a new working shepherd owner and interested in learning more about the DDR lines ,Can someone give me some information on my dogs pedigree and maybe put me onto a breeder of similar dogs.


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## wolfstraum

Real dogs said:


> Hi there I'm a new working shepherd owner and interested in learning more about the DDR lines ,Can someone give me some information on my dogs pedigree and maybe put me onto a breeder of similar dogs.


You need to start a new thread - this one is a few years old and nothing to do with your question....also you will need to post a link to her pedigree

Good luck and welcome

Lee


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