# ldominant/recessive coloring



## Pascha (Sep 28, 2008)

Suppose there is a breeding between two dogs. One carries the dominant black and tan _and_ the recessive solid black genes. The other carries the blk/tan or blk/red double recessive dilution gene.

There must be two recessive solid black genes to produce a solid black or two recessive dilution genes to produce a blue.

Am I right in saying that there can only be blk/tan pups? OR if one of the dogs passes a solid black and the other passes a dilution, could there be some solid blues? Or could there be blue/tans?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I believe both dogs must have the dilution gene for there to be blue puppies? So you could produce carriers of the blue gene but not actual blue puppies. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

Wanted to add this link...
http://www.total-german-shepherd.com/German-Shepherd-Coat-Colors.html


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

The only way you'd get black pups out of this litter is if both parents were black recessive. Since one parent is black tan/black and the other is homozygous blue/liver tan, you could get black tan pups or blue/liver tan pups. The pups would either be black and tan carrying the dilution or blue/liver and tan carrying the black. Assuming I did my Punnett square correctly.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: PaschaSuppose there is a breeding between two dogs. One carries the dominant black and tan _and_ the recessive solid black genes. The other carries the blk/tan or blk/red double recessive dilution gene.
> 
> There must be two recessive solid black genes to produce a solid black or two recessive dilution genes to produce a blue.
> 
> Am I right in saying that there can only be blk/tan pups? OR if one of the dogs passes a solid black and the other passes a dilution, could there be some solid blues? Or could there be blue/tans?


So parent 1 is heterozygous Black & Tan/Black.
Parent 2 is homozygous Black & Tan. I'm unclear when you say "double dilution gene" if you mean it carries 2 copies of one dilution gene, either 2 blue or 2 liver, (in which case the dog would BE a dilute and every pup produced will be a carrier) or if it carries 1 copy of each of the 2 dilution genes, 1 blue and 1 liver.

Either way, ALL pups will be Black & Tan. There cannot be solid blacks without both parents carrying at least one gene for solid black. Statistically, half the pups would be homozygous Black & Tan and the other half would be heterozygous Black & Tan/Black.

As far as the dilutes, it depends on what you mean whe you say "double dilution gene". 
If the parent carries 2 copies of one dilution gene, and therefore IS Blue or Liver & Tan, not Black & Tan, ALL pups will inherit one dilution gene. They will not be blue or liver, but all will be carriers of the gene.
If the parent carries 1 copy of each dilution gene (1 for blue, 1 for liver), most of the pups will probably inherit one or both of the dilution genes and be carriers, some will not, but none of them will be dilutes themselves.

Either way, none of the pups produced will be dilutes themselves, since only one parent carries dilute genes, but many will be carriers of dilute genes.


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## Scarlett (Oct 13, 2001)

The only dominant coat gene(s) in the breed are for sable, all other patterns including self colour are recessive genes so be careful about your terminology. Genes for dilution in blue or liver are also recessive but separate from the coat colour/patterns. White is recessive.

Two black and tan dogs may only produce black offspring if they each carry a gene for black, but not all offspring in a litter may be black. If one carries a gene for black, some of the offspring may carry the gene, but none will express that trait. Two black dogs will always produce black, they can offer no other colour genes. This basic principle applies to the dilutes, but dilutes can be seen in all patterns/colours including sable and solid black and occur on a different locus than the colour/pattern genes. Read about colour genes here:

http://www.jmadesign.com/Frankenhaus/colorgen01.shtml


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## Pascha (Sep 28, 2008)

okay, I am supposing here......the blue/tan has solids a few generations back on both side of the pedigree (blue, liver, black, white). But since the dog is blue/tan, that means it received the dilution from both sides. However, is there the possibility that they might also carry and pass on the solid black gene? Is the 'solid' gene a color gene or a pattern gene?


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## Pascha (Sep 28, 2008)

scarlett, thanx for the link. I have read it before, but I probably should read it again....and maybe again!!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I met my first blue last weekend - gosh he was cute but I bet Nikki is going to spend the next 10 or 15 years explaining that he isn't part chowchow.

Here's some more on blues 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=796401&page=0&fpart=1

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=838632&page=0&fpart=1


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## Pascha (Sep 28, 2008)

here's another question.....Ike is black sable with tar heels and penciling on the toes. I have read that the penciling might indicate carrying recessive black. Either it does or it doesn't.

Does it?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

It seems most sables who do carry recessive black do have the toe penciling. But there are sables *with* toe penciling who do *not* carry recessive black (I own one right now, as does my mother). So it's no guarantee.


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## Pascha (Sep 28, 2008)

okay, I got Ike's paperwork and am looking at the pic of his parents. Daddy is a sable w/o penciling, mom is a bi-color with penciling. The pics on pedigreedatabase look like a long line of sables and bi-colors. I will guess Ike is carrying bi-color.


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## Scarlett (Oct 13, 2001)

> Quotekay, I am supposing here......the blue/tan has solids a few generations back on both side of the pedigree (blue, liver, black, white). But since the dog is blue/tan, that means it received the dilution from both sides. However, is there the possibility that they might also carry and pass on the solid black gene? Is the 'solid' gene a color gene or a pattern gene?


For simplicity consider the dilute gene as separate from any coat colour or pattern. Consider white the same way. Patterns in the GSD include sable, black and tan in varying expressions, bicolour and self colour. The only self colour in our breed is solid black, white is NOT as white dogs are a pattern/colour combination masked by white. So the only solid colour to consider in the pedigree is black. If a solid colour dog is blue or liver, it's a black dog diluted. A diluted black and tan dog (or a solid black masked white) can produce solid black provided it carries the gene for it and is bred to a dog who is, or carries the gene for it (and who does not carry a dilute gene to create a solid coloured dilute). 

Clear as mud.


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