# Pup got attacked. Was I wrong?



## GRANBYsyztem (Feb 8, 2014)

I was at a park with my 8 month old. I had him on a 30ft lead because there were other dogs around and his recall isn't perfect yet. A lady with a golden retriever comes and asks if he's friendly, and I say yes but notice she has a chuck-it in her hand and I tell her Konig is a bit ball possessive. Shes says "oh thats fine I can just put it away." So I say ok but her dog approaches and gets pretty aggressive and growling and she pulls him away and she says sorry and takes him further away on the field. Konig loses interest so I take him off leash to throw the chuck it.. She sees that hes off leash and comes over with he*r dog and says "oh hes finally off the leash huh?".. So I smile and just say yea. Her dog approaches and starts to get aggressive again and charges Konig trying to bite at him as Konig tries to scramble away.* And NO, they were not playing.. I do know the difference. And she actually started freaking out saying "oh leave the pup alone!".. *She tries to recall him but can't and she tries to grab him but can't.* I'm also trying to stop them and *eventually am able to get my hands on the golden and basically shove him hard to the ground enough to make him tumble about 3 feet and wimper he turns and sees that I'm still walking straight for him and he goes flat on the ground and looks up at me.* Then I just stood over him until his owner came and grabbed him.. But she basically looked at me like I had gone over the top and handled her dog too aggressively. *Is it not justified to throw another person's dog onto the ground (or even kick, punch, hit with a stick, etc) to protect your dog if its being aggressive and the owner can't get control of it? * I grabbed my things and left the park, not because I felt guilty but because I was so livid. Am I wrong in this situation?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nope. You protected your dog and the owner could not get control.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Personally, I think you went over the top. Unfortunately…if the dog starts to cower at you, you probably did way too much. This didn’t seem like a bad dog fight where that was necessary, seems like just restraining the Golden would’ve accomplished the job…and if you had the time/ability to grab and shove him, you should’ve been able to grab the collar and just hold him until the owner got there. This is the part about dog parks where you just need to leave when you see a dog is being aggressive and your dog can’t handle it. At your dog’s age, he probably won’t stand up for himself and could develop some fear/confidence issues when it comes to dogs if he has enough of these run ins.

Not sure why knowing your dog is ball possessive you took out a chuck-it either though. But that’s not the biggest issue here.

I personally try to control my dog and not physically touch other people’s dogs. Even though it sounded like the lady knew her dog was being aggressive…you’ll run into situations where the other person will tell you their dog is “just playing” and will get quite pissed if you decide to lay your hands on their dog. My dog can play rough…I personally don’t let him get too crazy and watch the other owner’s reaction to how their dog is dealing with the rough play. But say my dog was playing a bit too rough for your tastes, but it wasn’t crazy terrible, and you did that…you’re probably going to have bigger issues (from me).


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## GRANBYsyztem (Feb 8, 2014)

Mm gotcha. Yea thats why im trying to get input in case.. God forbid it ever happens again.. I want to know the general protocol for handling it correctly.

But... 1. It was actually not a dog park. Just a park with a huge field (I avoid dog parks for now because of everything I read on this forum). And 2. I took out the chuck it because they were far enough away where Konig didn't care anymore and he was playing just fine with no other dogs around (she saw he was off leash and came over to me again) 3. It escalated very quickly and I wasn't standing there pondering.. "hmm... what should I do?" I just reacted. 4. When I say I got my hands on him.. I dont mean i was able to grab him. I was simply able to barely catch up and shove his rear down to the ground (though i admit i shoved him HARD) It wasn't like i got a hold of his scruff, windmilled him and mega slammed him to the ground or anything.. but again.. happened quickly. 5. She knew it wasn't normal behavior. She became very frantic trying to stop them also but her recall was failing and she wasn't able to grab him.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I think you were wrong, but I don't think you were over the top and I think it's a good learning situation.

When people at the park ask me these things, approach me, etc. they are asking for permission even if it doesn't explicitly sound like it. 

If someone walked into a park area where I was playing with my dog and asked if he was friendly, ESPECIALLY with a chuck it in hand, they are saying, "is it cool for my dog to run around yours and most likely meet each other?" My response is instantly either "NO, he's not sorry" or "Yes but we are busy training right now" to nip any chance of a greeting in the bud. I don't know their dog and have NO reason to subject my dog to a potentially aggressive or sick dog. 

"oh hes finally off the leash huh?" would have been replied to with a "Yes, but he can't meet your dog."

Sometimes you have to be so painfully, stupidly blunt with people to avoid issues like you experienced. But I would have done the exact same thing to another dog accosting mine, regardless of intent. My dogs rely on me to keep them safe, I am not going to give them a reason to doubt my abilities to do just that. The dog was a golden. It cowering sound pretty typical of a very friendly/mushy dog being reprimanded let alone struck. Maybe the owner will think twice next time.

eta; For what it's worth, you said park. I'm assuming this is not a dog park, but a park where you took your dog to play. I see nothing wrong with taking a ball possessive dog there, my dogs can be possessive when they are engaged with their toys, and we go to random parks to play all the time where there is no reason we would be accosted by random dogs. At the dog park we take it easy on the toys.


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## JoeyG (Nov 17, 2013)

Think you did the right thing! The lady clearly had no control so the dog didn't respect her. It laid down for you because it clearly respected you after that. Dogs can take much harder hits when playing with each other. I think you were completely justified in defending your puppy and if someone else doesn't like it really is their problem. I would do the same thing for my dog or my kid and if the owner has issue with it then we can fix that too.... this is why I don't go near dog parks or areas with loose dogs unless we know them well.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sorry Granby, you were way, way, way wrong. Grabbing the dog like that is a good way for you to get bit. You had the Chuck it. Use that.


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## GRANBYsyztem (Feb 8, 2014)

Thanks for the input DJEtzel! I will keep that in mind next time. I guess she felt I wanted to let them play but she had to take her dog away... and so probably felt she could just waltz back when she felt her dog was ready. Will be more clear next time!


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## GRANBYsyztem (Feb 8, 2014)

Yea... unfortunately wasn't a park I was familiar with :T At my park I've started learning which dogs Konig can and can't play with.

And Steve Strom, hahaha You're actually totally right. I don't know why but I instantly dropped the stick and moved towards them with both hands. I think my initial intent was to grab them. But yes, probably definitely not the best idea to try and grab an unknown dog with my hands... though eh... If it came down to it I'd take a nip to the forearm to keep my little guy safe.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Since this was a park (I’m assuming ON LEASH area) you really need to work on avoiding other dogs. If you are going to be playing off leash, I highly suggest either being in an area with almost zero traffic, or really working on your dog recall so that you can recall him the moment you see another dog and leash him. Neither dog should’ve been off leash for the greeting, or on a 30 foot line. Unfortunately, this is the type of situation where avoidance is the best way to prevent this from happening.

It’s hard to control what people do, so with my dog I have learned to just avoid them as much as possible. If I’m playing fetch in a field, I’m super vigilant for other people and their dogs. I think when your dog gets older, you’ll see more people avoid you (it’s a GSD) so it gets easier. But for the time being, you have to really watch for people and their dogs. I have one of those “friendly unless challenged” dogs, and the last thing I ever allow is a long enough interaction for the other dog to challenge mine. My dog can snap in a split second…and I don’t need a person thinking my dog is mean/vicious when they see me playing off leash with him. So I just don’t allow extra-long greetings…if I’m walking by people, we just walk by like we’re going somewhere and not really in the mood to socialize. I guess I’ve realized by now that although 95% of dogs are fine to meet, there’s that 5% you don’t want to, and that 5% makes me not want to allow my dogs to meet all 100%.

By the way...grabbing my dog in that way, is a surefire way to get yourself bit. You really never know which dogs are either trained or wired to do that. That's why I always advocate not physically touching/hurting a strange dog.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

I had a similar situation with a big male ridgeback. The owner was unable to contain the dog, I had no issue kicking it multiple times in the face to protect my pup. 
Would I act the same if the event would happen again? Yes only I'd kick the stupid owner when I'm done also


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

You would think after the intial encounter the woman would not come back again, but as DJ said, sometimes you need to be blunt from the get go. Hopefully not, but if something like this happens again, try to wheel-barrow the aggressor, in your scenario it probably would have worked.


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## GRANBYsyztem (Feb 8, 2014)

martemchik, you got me there.. It was an on-leash park as far as I know... I just totally thought it was understood like "you stay there, i'll stay here, no problem". Really no clue why she decided to walk over. From what I've seen with my limited experience.. There are some owners that just HAVE to meet other dogs if there is one.. Like they're getting all antsy to have their dog play with another dog. (Hahah, kind of funny because its actually always the GSD owners that i see at the park that sort of mind their own business)

Will keep wheel barrel in the arsenal! And kick to the face only in an extreme case! hahaha


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Sorry but I don't think that was over the top. I wish more people would discipline their darn KIDS like that. I swear, America the Land of the ButtHurt, and where everyone thinks they're the final authority on how to live your life. Not one of my finer moments, but I've had to hit a pit over the head with a tire iron before to get them off my Aussie, and I'd do it again in a heart beat. I think there is wayyyy too much sensitivity when it comes to certain things. Too much coddling and feelings nowadays. Just like a child, if you cannot control your animal there are repercussions. Either live with it or change it


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> Sorry but I don't think that was over the top. I wish more people would discipline their darn KIDS like that. I swear, America the Land of the ButtHurt, and where everyone thinks they're the final authority on how to live your life. Not one of my finer moments, but I've had to hit a pit over the head with a tire iron before to get them off my Aussie, and I'd do it again in a heart beat. I think there is wayyyy too much sensitivity when it comes to certain things. Too much coddling and feelings nowadays. Just like a child, if you cannot control your animal there are repercussions. Either live with it or change it


I don't think OP was over the top. I think that some decisions could have been made differently, let the woman know they can't meet, leave the park if the dog was acting that way.. but in the end what was done was what was capable by the OP at the time. 

While I never want to be in the position to hurt another animal like that, I have to agree with you here. Not that we need to be beating our children or animals, which I believe is how some will take that.. but that somehow in this society, discipline, of any kind, has slipped past everyone. This is the "softer, gentler" world, which isn't reality at all and we are turning the new generations into these sensitive people who can't handle themselves when life really happens. Actions=consequences and sometimes those consequences just plain suck..

I digress. OP didn't hurt the dog, I'm assuming, as the owner was able to walk away with it and say anything about that. Her dog was the attacker and I have gotten in between a rushing dog a time or two when Titan was growing up.. never excalated but I was fully prepared to defend him in whatever way needed.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> Sorry but I don't think that was over the top. I wish more people would discipline their darn KIDS like that. I swear, America the Land of the ButtHurt, and where everyone thinks they're the final authority on how to live your life. Not one of my finer moments, but I've had to hit a pit over the head with a tire iron before to get them off my Aussie, and I'd do it again in a heart beat. I think there is wayyyy too much sensitivity when it comes to certain things. Too much coddling and feelings nowadays. Just like a child, if you cannot control your animal there are repercussions. Either live with it or change it


Just keep in mind your dog may be the aggressor one day (general statement) Not intentionally but someone may say he's attacking their dog whether in play or not. Having a 20 month shepherd is a lot different that having a 6 month old shepherd. and what goes around comes around. With that said. I can live with someone pushing my dog away from hurting his/ her dog, but discipline my child like that and it would be another story. No child should be disciplined by being thrown 3 feet or pushed. Period


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> Sorry but I don't think that was over the top. I wish more people would discipline their darn KIDS like that. I swear, America the Land of the ButtHurt, and where everyone thinks they're the final authority on how to live your life. Not one of my finer moments, but I've had to hit a pit over the head with a tire iron before to get them off my Aussie, and I'd do it again in a heart beat. I think there is wayyyy too much sensitivity when it comes to certain things. Too much coddling and feelings nowadays. Just like a child, if you cannot control your animal there are repercussions. Either live with it or change it


AHAHAAHAHA! Grab another person’s child…put your hands on them, and see what happens to you.

The golden wasn’t murdering the OP’s dog. This wasn’t an all-out fight. One dog was probably just trying to dominate the other and the younger dog wasn’t comfortable with it. I don’t see anywhere that it said the dog even got a grip in on the OP’s dog. If you think you have to cause physical pain to another dog in this type of situation…I worry about how you treat your own animals. At the end of the day…this was an 8 month old GSD, not a tiny little puppy.

The call to violence is truly disturbing from some of the members.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Well I'm gonna go ahead and assume that Girl_Loves_Hydraulics was talking discipline of children by parents has ceased to exist causing bad behavior and aids in creating this taboo subject.. disciplining... gonna again, assume she nor most normal people would throw a kid 3 feet or touch another's child in such a manner. The reference was meant to state as an expample of how our society has turned into this "OMG you grabbed their dog!!! You bad bad person!!" Versus, good for you defending your puppy... the OP never said they hurt the other dog. I know I have definitely physically removed a dog from my vacinity, with it yelping because I scared it. Didn't hurt it, just relocated it away from us because it was charging at Titan.. 

Unless I'm entirely off the mark and she meant to physically harm children and seek out dogs to man handle, but I'm guessing that's not the case here and it's being taken too far.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> AHAHAAHAHA! Grab another person’s child…put your hands on them, and see what happens to you.
> 
> The golden wasn’t murdering the OP’s dog. This wasn’t an all-out fight. One dog was probably just trying to dominate the other and the younger dog wasn’t comfortable with it. I don’t see anywhere that it said the dog even got a grip in on the OP’s dog. If you think you have to cause physical pain to another dog in this type of situation…I worry about how you treat your own animals. At the end of the day…this was an 8 month old GSD, not a tiny little puppy.
> 
> The call to violence is truly disturbing from some of the members.


The thought that you'll let anything happen to your dog as long as there is no grip on it is disturbing to me, personally.

Doesn't matter if it's 8 mos or 8 wks. No dog should be left in a situation that it isn't comfortable in just because it isn't _dying. _It only takes a second to escalate from scuffle/scared to fight/death.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> The thought that you'll let anything happen to your dog as long as there is no grip on it is disturbing to me, personally.
> 
> Doesn't matter if it's 8 mos or 8 wks. No dog should be left in a situation that it isn't comfortable in just because it isn't _dying. _It only takes a second to escalate from scuffle/scared to fight/death.


The part where you can't read that there are other ways to solve these issues other than physically hurting a dog isn't really disturbing to me. 

You also missed where I basically don't allow strange dogs to greet my dog...which solves all these issues before they even come up.

For people to basically gloat about how they've kicked dogs in the face, and have hit dogs with tire irons is quite disturbing. That's the kind of stuff that just tells me they put their dogs in situations they shouldn't have been in the first place. If a tire iron is your only solution...something went wrong way before that and could've easily been fixed prior to that being a necessity.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

wyoung2153 said:


> Versus, good for you defending your puppy... the OP never said they hurt the other dog. I know I have definitely physically removed a dog from my vacinity, with it yelping because I scared it. Didn't hurt it, just relocated it away from us because it was charging at Titan..


Is there a different yelp when a dog is actually physically hurt and when it's just scared? And you can tell the kind of yelp it was from the story OP wrote? That's pretty amazing...

Sorry...if you make my dog yelp...you'll have issues. You'll actually be lucky if the issues come from me and not my dog.

I've also met enough people that have no idea who's dog starts what....not saying OP is that kind of person, but its generally people with not much experience. I've spoken to a lot of people that thought their dog was innocent because it wasn't the one barking/growling/showing teeth and yet it was clearly the instigator because it was trying to dominate the other dog by pawing them in the face/putting their head on the other dog's back/things of that nature. And whenever we get these types of stories, you never get the full story (impossible to explain everything) and it's often pretty one sided. Not saying OP's dog was guilty in this case...but its possible her dog might've done something as well. OP did say that her dog had ball possession issues...meaning there is aggression there.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> The part where you can't read that there are other ways to solve these issues other than physically hurting a dog isn't really disturbing to me.
> 
> You also missed where I basically don't allow strange dogs to greet my dog...which solves all these issues before they even come up.
> 
> For people to basically gloat about how they've kicked dogs in the face, and have hit dogs with tire irons is quite disturbing. That's the kind of stuff that just tells me they put their dogs in situations they shouldn't have been in the first place. If a tire iron is your only solution...something went wrong way before that and could've easily been fixed prior to that being a necessity.


 No, we have proven disagreements. I fully understand everything you said and don't agree one bit. 

It was already decided the OP should have been more proactive, but there are plenty of situations that occur through no fault to us (leisurely stroll on lead? Oh look, an aggressive dog is charging us) that results in dogs being kicked. You know there are articles in the paper every day about dogs rushing out of houses and attacking people. The same thing happens to dogs much more frequently, sometimes force, even deadly, is necessary.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Sorry...if you make my dog yelp...you'll have issues. You'll actually be lucky if the issues come from me and not my dog.


Doesn't this go back to something going way wrong for that to happen? You do no wrong, so you don't have to ever worry about your dog yelping.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> It was already decided the OP should have been more proactive, but there are plenty of situations that occur through no fault to us (leisurely stroll on lead? Oh look, an aggressive dog is charging us) that results in dogs being kicked. You know there are articles in the paper every day about dogs rushing out of houses and attacking people. The same thing happens to dogs much more frequently, sometimes force, even deadly, is necessary.


So basically...your way of preventing a fight (that isn't occurring yet) is to use deadly force against the other dog...hey, it's not your dog, who cares if its dead! I mean...it did look at your dog the wrong way.

In THIS situation...the fight wasn't terrible. Nothing crazy was happening. Both owners were there, or at least near by, and considering one of the dogs was already backing down, it wouldn't have been hard to grab the collar of the aggressing dog and keep the dogs away from each other.

If your first reaction is to punt the other dog...you're not going to break up fights. You're not creating a physical barrier for the dog to not get through, and you're risking that the dog will transfer that aggression to you.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

martemchik said:


> AHAHAAHAHA! Grab another person’s child…put your hands on them, and see what happens to you.
> 
> The golden wasn’t murdering the OP’s dog. This wasn’t an all-out fight. One dog was probably just trying to dominate the other and the younger dog wasn’t comfortable with it. I don’t see anywhere that it said the dog even got a grip in on the OP’s dog. If you think you have to cause physical pain to another dog in this type of situation…I worry about how you treat your own animals. At the end of the day…this was an 8 month old GSD, not a tiny little puppy.
> 
> The call to violence is truly disturbing from some of the members.


Hey there Martemchik,

I'm a little blunt so let me be more politically correct if that would be ok...First off, obviously I would NEVER EVER EVER put my hands on another person's child as that is not my responsibility. But if someone elses child was harming my child would I do something? Oh you bet your sweet potatoes I would. I refuse to be anyone's victim, and the same goes for my family. I am not saying I am going on "gangster" and "throwing down" and trying to fight someone. But trust and believe I will make sure it is halted. What I was more indicating is the fact that as another person has said, this world is soft. Everyone has to always be correct, everyone has to always be accepting, and understanding BARF!!! What is wrong with a little confrontation sometimes? Or a little correction? Now we have a bunch of breathing living beings out there that have no idea what the real world is. The real world is heartless and cruel. You do no favors by sheltering these days, you only hinder. Another point I was trying to make is that people are more worried about feelings and how they are viewed by others. Sometimes it's easier to be a jerk in the beginning, then end up one on accident. By the way, I still think of what my mother always used to say to every friend she had that came over..."IF YOU DO NOT DISCIPLINE YOUR CHILDREN, I WILL DO IT FOR YOU. IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT, DO NOT COME OVER". True words of wisdom...My apologies if anyone thinks I'm some sort of like kid beater or something lmao. My husband should get a chuckle out of that, since normally I am the laid back one.


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## GRANBYsyztem (Feb 8, 2014)

Just to clarify, it really wasn't a chance for me to react. She walked up with her dog off leash saying "oh hes finally off the leash" and there was really no introduction or interaction between the two dogs. Her dog just left her side when they were a good 10 meters from me and ran towards Konig snarling and barking. And yea.. he didn't actually get a good bite in, but he was certainly trying and Konig's scruff was pretty wet from where he was trying to get him. So while I do understand that i couldve tried to avoid the situation.. but she literally strolled up without asking, dog off leash, and her dog just launched and raced towards Konig.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

martemchik said:


> The part where you can't read that there are other ways to solve these issues other than physically hurting a dog isn't really disturbing to me, you have proven comprehension issues in the past.
> 
> You also missed where I basically don't allow strange dogs to greet my dog...which solves all these issues before they even come up.
> 
> For people to basically gloat about how they've kicked dogs in the face, and have hit dogs with tire irons is quite disturbing. That's the kind of stuff that just tells me they put their dogs in situations they shouldn't have been in the first place. If a tire iron is your only solution...something went wrong way before that and could've easily been fixed prior to that being a necessity.


and FYI, no one is "gloating". My dog Katie ended up with severe lacerations and lost a lot of blood over a supposed "friendly" dispute over a dog she knew and lived next door to for 6 YEARS. After having to beat a dog that I had petted and given treats for years, then had pay $4,820 in veterinary bills, you think I am gloating? I think before you start tossing stones at glass houses, you perhaps ask things like, "Well gee, why did you have to do that?", and perhaps I could have informed you. Another problem with our society, assumptions are now the "in thing". You know what they say about assumptions...


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Is there a different yelp when a dog is actually physically hurt and when it's just scared? And you can tell the kind of yelp it was from the story OP wrote? That's pretty amazing...
> 
> Sorry...if you make my dog yelp...you'll have issues. You'll actually be lucky if the issues come from me and not my dog.


Says the one against physical violence.. interesting..

However, when I KNOW I didn't hurt the dog.. and it yelps.. I can tell that it is from me startling it.. because just like some humans scream when they are scared/startled.. dogs do too.. weird.. it is pretty amazing when you think of it isn't it??

Of course I don't know what happened.. none of us do.. all anyone is doing here is making their opinion based off what the OP said. You apparently think OP body slammed the dog and almost killed it, where as, based on how I read it, I believe they shoved the dog off theirs, and whether she hurt it or not.. it yelped.. I was only pointing out that it is possible for the dog to have been startled versus hurt. So calm yourself. 

Second.. if your dog attacked mine and I had to remove him/her.. I would do it however I saw fit if you were just standing there not controlling your dog. I suspect though, you're smarter than that and probably have better control of him/her anyways thus that situation would not present itself.. so mind your manners and stop bullying people that don't agree with you.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Trust me…I’m constantly a jerk. I constantly just keep walking when people clearly want to introduce their dogs to mine. I don’t care what someone that I’ll probably never see again thinks about that situation and I’m not afraid to get physical or get into a confrontation in the least bit. But there are levels of physicality that are necessary…and IMO, in OP’s situation…OP was right to protect her dog, but probably went a bit too far on the correction of the other dog.

Did you guys see the article about the lady that got pulled over for speeding, the cop started to walk away from her car and she thought he was just letting her off with a warning (he wasn’t) and his partner started to shoot at the minivan full of kids? Like…a bit too much for a speeding ticket don’t you think? You’re going to risk someone’s life over a little confusion or purposeful running from the cops over a speeding ticket?

There are levels of confrontation…everyone has their own levels…but you should always know that if you go over someone else’s comfort level with a correction, you’re putting yourself at risk of them taking it to a level you don’t feel comfortable with.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You all quickly escalated this into a "well this could've happened" type of situation. I'm just focusing on what was told to me. Or the "well this happened to my dog once and I did this." The situation hadn't escalated to a dangerous point, and a collar grab was not out of the question. The only way to completely stop a dog fight is to restrain both dogs...not just throw one a few feet away and hope that it stops going after the other dog.

My dog has gotten into fights...I've always just restrained dogs by the collars. I've had to pry my dog's jaws from another dog's neck before. Staying calm, and not kicking him in the face was the best way to do it. Those situations have taught me how to avoid them in the future...so all I'm telling OP is that they're going to have to do that. Instead of praising them for doing the right thing and making them think that its the only way to solve that kind of problem. There are other ways to solve those types of issues that are much safer, and are less likely to result in vet bills or medical bills.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

martemchik said:


> For people to basically gloat about how they've kicked dogs in the face, and have hit dogs with tire irons is quite disturbing. That's the kind of stuff that just tells me they put their dogs in situations they shouldn't have been in the first place. If a tire iron is your only solution...something went wrong way before that and could've easily been fixed prior to that being a necessity.



I'm sorry but you can't assume you know the situation in which these instances occurred. Yes, when I read them I was thinking, wow that's rather harsh. 

But then I got thinking. When I was walking my dog around my neighbor last year, on leash mind you, a dog bolted out the front door at us. His only intention was to go after my dog. I tried picking my dog up, that failed. Then the other dog grabbed him and getting my dog away from him was impossible, this dog wasn't letting go and his owner wasn't doing much to help. I had to let my dog go and pick up the hind end of the other dog. He let my dog go but started to turn around as if it was coming for me, I let him go. And of course the owner was unable to restrain him and he went after my dog again. The only thing that stopped him was someone came out with a 2x4 and hit him with it...it was awful. The whole situation. I filed a report, this wasn't this particular dogs' first offense and the city did decide to have him euthanized.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> Konig's scruff was pretty wet from where he was trying to get him.


no
the golden _did_ get him there
if your pups scruff was wet but with saliva and not blood then the golden was just "correcting' him as adults will sometimes do
dogs are insanely quick and if the golden had actually wanted to hurt your dog he would have when his mouth was on your pup
you freaked out but there was really nothing going on and as martem said grabbing the dogs collar would have worked

i think adult dogs do this to see if the puppy will submit and yours did so really all was nearly over as soon as it began


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

wyoung2153 said:


> Well I'm gonna go ahead and assume that Girl_Loves_Hydraulics was talking discipline of children by parents has ceased to exist causing bad behavior and aids in creating this taboo subject.. disciplining... gonna again, assume she nor most normal people would throw a kid 3 feet or touch another's child in such a manner. The reference was meant to state as an expample of how our society has turned into this "OMG you grabbed their dog!!! You bad bad person!!" Versus, good for you defending your puppy... the OP never said they hurt the other dog. I know I have definitely physically removed a dog from my vacinity, with it yelping because I scared it. Didn't hurt it, just relocated it away from us because it was charging at Titan..
> 
> Unless I'm entirely off the mark and she meant to physically harm children and seek out dogs to man handle, but I'm guessing that's not the case here and it's being taken too far.


It's possible..lol I read "Sorry but I don't think that was over the top. I wish more people would discipline their darn KIDS like that" so thought of it that way.

I do think America being butthurt goes both ways, people upset you kicked their dog and people upset another dog was biting their dog when the dog was just mouthing. Once again a generalized statement. I am all about protecting your dog and if someone has to beat a dog with a tire iron to do it so be it. But in some situations a dog "fight" can be handled with a little more tact and not kicked and thrown. I too feel sad for the amount of violence that is encouraged here and the fact that some people seem to gloat about it.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

lauren43 said:


> I'm sorry but you can't assume you know the situation in which these instances occurred. Yes, when I read them I was thinking, wow that's rather harsh.
> 
> But then I got thinking. When I was walking my dog around my neighbor last year, on leash mind you, a dog bolted out the front door at us. His only intention was to go after my dog. I tried picking my dog up, that failed. Then the other dog grabbed him and getting my dog away from him was impossible, this dog wasn't letting go and his owner wasn't doing much to help. I had to let my dog go and pick up the hind end of the other dog. He let my dog go but started to turn around as if it was coming for me, I let him go. And of course the owner was unable to restrain him and he went after my dog again. The only thing that stopped him was someone came out with a 2x4 and hit him with it...it was awful. The whole situation. I filed a report, this wasn't this particular dogs' first offense and the city did decide to have him euthanized.


 Thank you Lauren for that, because IT IS a truly horrifying and sad situation. The dog that lived next door to me was Junior, and he was a large Pit/Rott mix. He was easily 120-130 lbs. Katie was a 33 lb Australian Shepherd. They were both the same age, and we were extremely friendly with his family. We've had double backyard BBQ's, took the dogs out to the lake together, great times. We still don't know to this day what set him off, but we think it was over a toy. Katie was always a little more assertive too, and didn't take to bullying too kindly. At the time, I was in my teens I'm gonna go with 16ish. I was 5 foot 3, and the dog weighed more than I did. I heard my dog screaming and ran out, and there he was on top of her and there was just a huge chunk of her neck flapping and he wouldn't stop. I threw some rocks first and grabbed the tire iron. I am glad I did because there was a moment where he turned and I have never felt so helpless. I was a non factor to that dog. By the way, I wasn't very strong, and really the tire iron didn't do much damage. But what it did do is buy some time. I was able to keep him somewhat distracted so he couldn't finish the job. Thankfully, the owners had pulled up during this and the owner had to put the dog in a choke hold and he was pretty torn up trying to keep the jaws from latching back on. After that, they voluntarily put him down before the city made them. It is something I will never forget, and I wish that no one has to go through these experiences.


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## JoeyG (Nov 17, 2013)

After all this I stand by my opinion that the op did the right thing given the situation. Not everyone has to like it or agree with it but my hat is off to you for standing up for your dog


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

My situation was a bit different and still very fresh in my mind
but OP, I wish I could just reach through this screen and hug you!
Maybe it IS a bit of a learning experience and maybe you can/will
do things a bit differently in future, and that's fine. But I will tell
you right here and now that I have an awful lot of guilt over not
being able to protect my girl and I am glad she's okay, and not
going to let anything similar happen again or trust in a nearby 
hero contractor with a 2X4!!

No collar on the dog in my case, no chance whatsoever of a
wheelbarrow maneuver or anything else. Dogs all my almost
62 year old life, abused nary a one (or any other animal) and I
pulled back my right foot and let have it at that dog and I 
would do it again in a heartbeat. I totally wrenched my back,
neck, shoulders and hurt my foot. This dog gave nary a whimper
or a cry or a growl or anything. Totally silent and intent. If I
had had a tire iron, I would have used it. 

So okay, maybe your thing wasn't as bad as all that but escalation can
be waaaay too fast to try and stop and think, you do and sometimes
that's all she wrote. He who hesitates is lost!


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

JoeyG said:


> After all this I stand by my opinion that the op did the right thing given the situation. Not everyone has to like it or agree with it but my hat is off to you for standing up for your dog


I don't think anyone's changed their opinion yay or nay. 

There's a reason there are leash laws and it's for reasons like this. Hopefully we've learned to keep our dogs away from each other as not everyone or dog is friendly and on a leash. If the person says they don't want to interact, respect that.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

You were both wrong if the dogs were off leash. You tell her that your dog is possessive of a ball and she puts it away to avoid an issue and then you take one out? Common sense is to not do that in the vicinity of other dogs to begin with. I know my goldens are super excited to meet other dogs and play. I also know that my younger one plays rough like a GSD and my older one will not put up with crap from another dog, it takes a lot but he can and will stand his ground. So whether this was play or a start of a fight you could have just blocked your dog or maybe even nudged the other dog. If I was that lady and you did that to my dog, things would have escalated real quick. It was way overboard and not acceptable, even a little bit. If you don't want to be in these situations, don't put yourself in them.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> You tell her that your dog is possessive of a ball and she puts it away to avoid an issue and then you take one out?


yeah i caught that too
confused me

also has it been stated is this a dog park or a regular park?

a very good reason to avoid dog parks right here btw unless its big enough you dont run into a buncha strange dogs and even stranger humans


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## GRANBYsyztem (Feb 8, 2014)

I dont really know why people keep missing this... I told her my dog was ball possessive, so she put the ball away and tried to let them play. Her dog immediately went aggressive so she LEFT to the other end of the field. It was a very large field. Its not like i just moved over a bit. She went to the other end to play. THATS when i took out my ball and was playing fetch just fine. She then decided to WALK BACK OVER. I dont know why you think I told her he's ball possessive and whipped out a ball in front of them. She was basically gone... then just thought it was a good idea to come back for some reason. And literally as they walked up her dog just took off towards mine. And my_boy_diesel, the reason he didn't get a hold was cuz he couldnt. He was much smaller and Konig was pulling away from him. When i said "scruff" i meant the side of his neck was wet. And trust me, he was attacking... Honestly, the other owner was way more freaked out than I was. Actually, i wasn't "freaked out" i was trying to stop it while she spun in circles trying to recall him and grab em as they ran by... she just couldn't manage to catch them but I did.

At the end of the day.. from this thread im realizing this is a split topic. And therefore I am going to stick with my method. If my dog is attacked, i will stop it in a manner that I see fit at the time that it is happening. And I'm sorry, but yes... that will include using a firearm if available as any cop would do to protect their k9 partners. I did my time in afghanistan and when the bullets start flying... you just do what you have to do and reflect on it later.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GRANBYsyztem said:


> I dont really know why people keep missing this... I told her my dog was ball possessive, so she put the ball away and tried to let them play. Her dog immediately went aggressive so she LEFT to the other end of the field. It was a very large field. Its not like i just moved over a bit. She went to the other end to play. THATS when i took out my ball and was playing fetch just fine. She then decided to WALK BACK OVER. I dont know why you think I told her he's ball possessive and whipped out a ball in front of them. She was basically gone... then just thought it was a good idea to come back for some reason. And literally as they walked up her dog just took off towards mine. And my_boy_diesel, the reason he didn't get a hold was cuz he couldnt. He was much smaller and Konig was pulling away from him. When i said "scruff" i meant the side of his neck was wet. And trust me, he was attacking... Honestly, the other owner was way more freaked out than I was. Actually, i wasn't "freaked out" i was trying to stop it while she spun in circles trying to recall him and grab em as they ran by... she just couldn't manage to catch them but I did.
> 
> At the end of the day.. from this thread im realizing this is a split topic. And therefore I am going to stick with my method. If my dog is attacked, i will stop it in a manner that I see fit at the time that it is happening. And I'm sorry, but yes... that will include using a firearm if available as any cop would do to protect their k9 partners. I did my time in afghanistan and when the bullets start flying... you just do what you have to do and reflect on it later.


Are dogs allowed off leash? Did you know that another dog was present? You say the dog was showing aggression the first time , but you still stayed? A dog that is possessive over toys does not belong in a setting where there are other dogs, period. The first rule in dog ownership is to to protect your dog, but at the same time not putting them in situations where they need to be protected. Keep doing what you do but remember you have a GSD and one day you might be the owner with the dog that was kicked and cowering because someone over reacted or your dog growled over his ball.. I have a feeling you wouldn't be to happy , but there is a good chance this will happen if you choose to bring your dog to areas where other dogs are present. Only you can control where you take your dog and what situations you put them in.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with your "end of the day".

If my dog is minding it's own business, and some strange dog attacks, bites, tries to start crap with her, I'm going to step in and do what I gotta do. No, I don't ever want to think I would have to 'hurt' another animal or someone else's beloved pet, but I will protect my dog even tho she can probably do a number on the offending party. 

I do think if this was an area that dogs were supposed to be leashed, well then having them offleash is asking for trouble, but, even if the OP had their dog ON a leash, it sounds like this ladies dog 'offleash' would have done the same thing, sounds like maybe the other owner isn't to dog savvy, thinking "my dog likes everyone"..found out differently I guess


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I would protect my dog, but I wouldn't grab a strange dog that is snarling. I never take a dog off lead if there is a chance of that type of encounter. I've had my dogs attacked unprovoked and often thought I should carry a stick or something I can use to keep a dangerous dog away. At the same time, it would be difficult to possibly harm another dog unless I saw it was attacking to hurt vs making a lot of noise.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> The first rule in dog ownership is to to protect your dog, but at the same time not putting them in situations where they need to be protected.


totally this
thing is op never states if this was on or off leash park
so assuming at this point after being asked and not saying , that this is an on leash area
so you were both in the wrong
lesson learned i hope


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

GRANBYsyztem said:


> At the end of the day.. from this thread im realizing this is a split topic. And therefore I am going to stick with my method. If my dog is attacked, i will stop it in a manner that I see fit at the time that it is happening. And I'm sorry, but yes... that will include using a firearm if available as any cop would do to protect their k9 partners. I did my time in afghanistan and when the bullets start flying... you just do what you have to do and reflect on it later.


then I don't understand why you came to the site asking if you were wrong??? if you are so set on what you did was right and would do it again.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

*


GRANBYsyztem;5984858[B said:



]martemchik, you got me there.. It was an on-leash park as far as I know

Click to expand...

*


GRANBYsyztem;5984858[B said:


> [/B]... I just totally thought it was understood like "you stay there, i'll stay here, no problem". Really no clue why she decided to walk over. From what I've seen with my limited experience.. There are some owners that just HAVE to meet other dogs if there is one.. Like they're getting all antsy to have their dog play with another dog. (Hahah, kind of funny because its actually always the GSD owners that i see at the park that sort of mind their own business)
> 
> Will keep wheel barrel in the arsenal! And kick to the face only in an extreme case! hahaha


There you go MBD.

Don't worry about all the responses Granby. When the forum is slow people will beat any thread to death.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

BTW, I want to apologize if I seemed like I am some sort of violence advocate, because I am not. I think being prepared for any situation though is important. You never want to harm anything if you don't have to, but you better make sure you have the means to stop it if you have to. I personally do not like dog parks. I do not trust strangers enough to assume they are responsible owners. A lot of people seem to have the blinders on to what their dog is actually capable of. Case in point, this JUST happened either today or yesterday not sure:

Neighbor who shot pitbull during attack of child: 'I had to do i - Fox 2 News Headlines

Dog came out of nowhere, and just attacked as far as we know. The owner says the dog has never shown aggression. Just as with people, we can never truly know what the intentions are of an animal every single second of every day. Sorry if I came off harsh or rude, as that was not the message I was trying to convey.


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

If this lady was so far away, you should of seen her coming back. If your dog is ball aggressive, paying attention to what is going on around you, will help keep him safe also.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> *
> 
> 
> Don't worry about all the responses Granby. When the forum is slow people will beat any thread to death.*


*

:thumbup:*


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

It'snot just because people are beating this thread to death, we'll maybe some lol
I'd think it's because this poster has had issues before. His pup already got bit by a another dog a few months back. People are just suggesting he not put his dog in these situations. take a listen to what people are saying for your own dogs sake and then you wouldn't have to go around grabbing knocking over other people's dogs. Sheesh.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I've been around dogs that guard or show possessiveness with toys. There is a lady that brings her GSD to this little dog park I found and the dog is just awful and the owner thinks it's ok. Other dogs can't go within a ten ft radius of this dog if her toy is there, it doesn't matter if it's in her mouth or on the ground. She growled at all the dogs including my younger golden, I kept him away from her. A few weeks later I was there with my female GSD and others were talking about this other GSD, no one wanted that dog around. Five minutes later here she comes with her owner. I picked up the leash and took my dog out of there, I know for a fact my female GSD would not put up with that behavior. I can almost bet that the OP's dogs posture changed when the other dog approached and maybe even growled, it can be easy to miss but very possible in this case. The OPs dog might not have wanted the other dog near his ball and the other dog took it as a challenge. You can't blame other dogs or their owners if your own dog is resource guarding. Dogs that are possessive of their toys can't be around other dogs who have no issues, it just doesn't work, because one day a dog will come along and correct or put the dog that is growling in its place.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

not being there and based on your description, you went way over the top. if this was a real dog fight, you would have some teeth marks and blood on you. neither dog should have been off leash, and on a short leash only. had you started kicking and hitting my dog, lets just say bad idea.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GRANBYsyztem said:


> I was at a park with my 8 month old. I had him on a 30ft lead because there were other dogs around and his recall isn't perfect yet. A lady with a golden retriever comes and asks if he's friendly, and I say yes but notice she has a chuck-it in her hand and I tell her Konig is a bit ball possessive. Shes says "oh thats fine I can just put it away." So I say ok but her dog approaches and gets pretty aggressive and growling and she pulls him away and she says sorry and takes him further away on the field. Konig loses interest so I take him off leash to throw the chuck it.. She sees that hes off leash and comes over with he*r dog and says "oh hes finally off the leash huh?".. So I smile and just say yea. Her dog approaches and starts to get aggressive again and charges Konig trying to bite at him as Konig tries to scramble away.* And NO, they were not playing.. I do know the difference. And she actually started freaking out saying "oh leave the pup alone!".. *She tries to recall him but can't and she tries to grab him but can't.* I'm also trying to stop them and *eventually am able to get my hands on the golden and basically shove him hard to the ground enough to make him tumble about 3 feet and wimper he turns and sees that I'm still walking straight for him and he goes flat on the ground and looks up at me.* Then I just stood over him until his owner came and grabbed him.. But she basically looked at me like I had gone over the top and handled her dog too aggressively. *Is it not justified to throw another person's dog onto the ground (or even kick, punch, hit with a stick, etc) to protect your dog if its being aggressive and the owner can't get control of it? * I grabbed my things and left the park, not because I felt guilty but because I was so livid. Am I wrong in this situation?


I don't think the other owner has any right to be ticked off with the level of hands-on you did with her dog. Her dog was being aggressive, and she did not have control. So she really doesn't have a foot to stand on.

But, there are some things that you mention that make me cringe a little:

1. There was a dog there that was acting aggressive toward your dog, and _then _you let your dog off lead while the dog was still there. In protecting your dog, rather than putting your dog in the position where you would need to punch, kick, yell at, shoot, throw to the ground, or whatever the other dog, you could have read the giant billboard signs all around and not let your dog off lead while that dog was there.

2. You say that your dog is possessive with toys, but then you get your chuck it out and play in a dog park with it. 

I hate the whole concept of dog parks. Other people like them. I don't think they are for every dog.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Midnight12 said:


> If this lady was so far away, you should of seen her coming back. If your dog is ball aggressive, paying attention to what is going on around you, will help keep him safe also.


true, but if his dog is toy possessive, he shouldn't be around other dogs and bring a toy. go to a public dog park, don't expect privacy. he knowingly exposed his dog to a situation the pup was unprepared for. the golden owner isn't the only one who is not dog savy.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

what??
op comes on asking for opinions and we give em and we are 'beating it to death"??



> true, but if his dog is toy possessive, he shouldn't be around other dogs and bring a toy. go to a public dog park, don't expect privacy. he knowingly exposed his dog to a situation the pup was unprepared for. the golden owner isn't the only one who is not dog savy.


:thumbup:



> if this was a real dog fight, you would have some teeth marks and blood on you.


agreed totally
the golden had plenty of chances to actually hurt your pup
or you
and didnt

and another thought to ponder
your dog has been attacked what, twice now?
he is going to be on the road to becoming DA as well so thats another thing youre going to have to watch out for 
next time he may be the aggressor and someones gonna be kicking _him_ and pinning him to the ground


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## GRANBYsyztem (Feb 8, 2014)

Msmaria said:


> then I don't understand why you came to the site asking if you were wrong??? if you are so set on what you did was right and would do it again.





GRANBYsyztem said:


> Mm gotcha. Yea thats why im trying to get input in case.. God forbid it ever happens again.. I want to know the general protocol for handling it correctly.


I mentioned this on the first page. I came to see if there was a *general concensus* on how these things are treated. Like an agreed upon plan of attack that most dog owners just know is the standard operating procedure. But what i meant was.. *there clearly isn't one. If there was, I would try to adopt it as best I could.* But since there seems to be a rift and no one agrees anyways, I will just go with my instinct and what i believe to be correct. Was just trying to be polite and NOT be that awful dog owner ruining it for everyone. I came here to learn, not get ragged on by a buncha right/left wing dog owner extremists.


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## DoubleOPinter (Sep 1, 2014)

The way I look at it, if anything attacks my dog I'm going to do whatever I need to do to get it off. If you tossed the other dog and it fell and then cowered then that's the dogs problem; maybe he shouldn't have been such a dinkus in the first place. Do whatever you need to protect your dog, if the other person can't control their dog it's their problem. If my dog went growling and then attacking/intimidating some other dog then I'd expect the same from the owner.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> Do whatever you need to protect your dog, if the other person can't control their dog it's their problem.


lol yeah there is that
but then there is the fact the OP _attacked_ the other dog
works both ways huh



> standard operating procedure.


standard operating procedure is keep your dog leashed in an on leash area


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> what??
> op comes on asking for opinions and we give em and we are 'beating it to death"??





my boy diesel said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> 
> agreed totally
> ...


Yeah. How many times is it necessary to keep saying pretty much the same stuff? How many people are needed to repeat over and over again.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

really jacks?
someone else pointed out his pup stands a high risk of becoming dog aggressive now that hes been attacked twice?
i musta missed it :shrug:

btw granz


> I just shoved her to the ground and stepped in between the two.


i see your method has worked twice now
but both times the dogs seemed largely unaggressive in the real sense of the word
if you actually try this method with a truly aggressive dog you are liable to get injured badly


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

GRANBYsyztem said:


> Am I wrong in this situation?


No.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

You know what? If some jerk' who can't control her dog who's dog comes at my dogs? I would beat the crap out of of her dogs with my purse if that's all I had.Sorry I first said stupid dogs here. There are no stupid dogs, only stupid owners. Children? no but I would yell at her if they put my children in danger and call the police.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

GRANBYsyztem said:


> I mentioned this on the first page. I came to see if there was a *general concensus* on how these things are treated. Like an agreed upon plan of attack that most dog owners just know is the standard operating procedure. But what i meant was.. *there clearly isn't one. If there was, I would try to adopt it as best I could.* But since there seems to be a rift and no one agrees anyways, I will just go with my instinct and what i believe to be correct. Was just trying to be polite and NOT be that awful dog owner ruining it for everyone. I came here to learn, not get ragged on by a buncha right/left wing dog owner extremists.


I wasn't going to post, but I can't help myself. You've been a member of this board since February and expect to find consensus on a behavior question? I'm not usually blunt and don't intend this to be rude, but you came here looking for consensus that you did the right thing and then you call the people who didn't say what you wanted to hear extremists?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Yes I agree with Martem.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I’m really not talking to OP anymore, it’s just trying to show anyone that might find this thread a better way to handle the situation.

People started posting about when their dog was truly attacked by another dog, another dog had their dog by the throat, a strange dog coming out of no-where and attacking your dog. Situations that had clearly escalated past what this had been at. The situation at hand, had two dogs, and two owners. The GSD as we just found out, was BIGGER than the golden. And yes, I know size isn’t everything, but in general, two large dogs in a scruff up…you have some time to figure out what to do before there is blood.

The reason I pointed out the dog being ball possessive, is it shows that even at 8 months old, the dog has some aggression. Not a bad thing IMO, just that the dog himself is capable of getting to that next level and defending something he cares about. So…not a completely helpless puppy.

My point isn’t that violence/hurting other dogs isn’t necessary in some situations. It’s just that the first move/instinct shouldn’t be to hurt the other dog in order to stop a situation. We have OP posting, and I’m 100% in agreement the other dog was in the wrong, but many times, these stories can go either way, and if your first thought is to cause pain onto a dog to make it stop doing something you don’t like, you’ll eventually run into a situation where nothing bad was happening and you came over and did something bad to another person’s dog.

The debate reminds me of this thread... http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/current-dog-affairs/343002-wow-really-5.html

Oh, the dog wasn't being aggressive? Oh well. I thought it was...so I shot it. That's what happens when your first instinct is to resort to violence. Oh, and OP just told us how he wouldn't have an issue shooting a dog next time around. I'm sure the rest of you will be here to pat him on the back for it.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I’m really not talking to OP anymore, it’s just trying to show anyone that might find this thread a better way to handle the situation.
> 
> People started posting about when their dog was truly attacked by another dog, another dog had their dog by the throat, a strange dog coming out of no-where and attacking your dog. Situations that had clearly escalated past what this had been at. The situation at hand, had two dogs, and two owners. The GSD as we just found out, was BIGGER than the golden. And yes, I know size isn’t everything, but in general, two large dogs in a scruff up…you have some time to figure out what to do before there is blood.
> 
> ...


Yep agreed, once I saw the OP comment. I realized were not talking to a mature person, most likely a kid who's stubborn and won't take any kind of advice. Who probably just came here to start trouble or gloat.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Msmaria said:


> Yep agreed, once I saw the OP comment. I realized were not talking to a mature person, most likely a kid who's stubborn and won't take any kind of advice. Who probably just came here to start trouble or gloat.


No! I don't think that. I just think OP (like anyone else) wanted to see 99% of the comments be...you did the right thing, I would've done the same, blah blah blah.

I think these threads are meant for us to tell people that there are other options. When dealing with dog interactions (bad or good) there are always 100s of ways to deal with them. And I get it, in a fight/aggression situation, all of us are going to resort to our first instinct, but it's not hard to reprogram our first instinct to be a different one. If you stay calm, are confident, and have an idea of how to deal with a situation in a positive way, you'll resort to that.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

OP, I've done the same thing before, so whether it's "right" or "wrong" who knows, but my dogs aren't supposed to be defending themselves - that's my job. If someone is so reckless that they allow their dogs the freedom to instigate trouble with other dogs minding their own business, then maybe they'll think twice the next time, if they're not happy with the results.

A few weeks ago, I had someone leave the river with their dog, after I yelled "HEY!" at it, when it came up to mine snarling and snapping. WTH? First you say your dog is friendly, then it's acting like that, then you shoot me a nasty look and leave? Uh, something doesn't add up, lol.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here’s a story about my dog…

A few months ago, I was playing fetch with my male in the back yard. He loves his tennis ball…a lot. So I was throwing it, and he was bringing it back. I ended up throwing it to the back fence which is a 4ft chain link. The dog on the other side of that fence isn’t the nicest dog in the world, but he’s not really trouble. He’s an Australian cattle dog. Well, he ended up reaching under the chain link fence, and grabbing the ball. My boy…running full speed to the fence, just decided to follow the ball right under the fence as well. That’s right, my 85lbs GSD…managed to squeeze himself under a chain link fence in about .5 seconds. They of course got into it over the ball. I had to sprint about 100 feet, jump the fence, and split them up. All it took, was grabbing each collar, and pulling them apart. As soon as they were apart, it gave both dogs a chance to breathe and calm down. Bam, situation handled. No blood, no foul. I downed my boy (while the cattle dog was still trying to get at him), and calmly walked the other dog to my neighbor’s door and explained what had happened. I then corralled my boy and we went home.

It was just that easy…and no harm needed to be done on either dog.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Me personally, I'm not above resorting to the force needed to stop a situation whatever that means to anyone. For me it is the least force necessary to stop the attack.. call it my training.. but it is what it is.. In this case I was only pointing out that sometimes it's necessary to be physical with an attacking dog, in general.. my comments about that were aimed more in a general state, and I probably should have clarified that better. 

Specific to the OP's situation, maybe I read it wrong, but it sounded as if they jsut shoved the dog off theirs and away from the situation. I don't believe that to be extreme violence so I don't think it was over the top. 

As for the lethal force comments being made, I really don't think people here.. hope I'm not wrong.. will choose that method first, I assume that is given as an example of the lengths they would go for in a real problem where the attacking dog is not backing down, your dog isn't defending itself or can't and the attacker has intent to kill. In that situation, whatever in necessary to remove the threat. But shoving a dog a few feet away from mine while it's rushing toward it aggressively just doesn't ring violent maniac to me. Maybe that's where the confusion is coming in. 

Martemchik, I fully get what you are saying and agree, and I think that most here agree with what you mean but it's probably gettinglost in translation. Yes OP should have probably left, yes OP might have been able to prevent it from the get go, but in the end no harm was done.. I also had no idea about other incidents so that's an important factor to the story that was missing, IMO.

OP, you are the one ultimately responsible for the protection of your dog, and neutralizing threats toward him. No one is attacking you, jsut giving their opinion on how they would handle tha situation and how they feel you may have been able to prevent it. Take it as you will but in the end, you decide what is best for you and your dog. I certainly hope it's not to shoot any dog running at you at first glance, but I suspect/hope you have more sense than that. And I hope it's a mixture of the advice given here.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I’ll share three stories:

I was playing fetch with Delgado and some of my family's dogs were playing around us in my parents fence in dog run, I threw the ball and my sister's min pin decided to lunge at Delgado's face while he was carrying it back to me (I honestly don’t know if he made contact or not). Delgado dropped the ball and pinned the min pin in a heartbeat, I yelled NO! as I ran towards them and Delgado backed off right away. No harm was done and both dogs were separated for a cool off period


Another story, I was at the local off leash park - very similar to the park you were at. Over 100 acres of green space to hike and walk around in, leashes optional. I had both dogs with me, Delgado was about 8 months old so the same age as yours and a guy came around the corner with a female lab, Delgado went up to greet as he did to all the dogs he'd meet. The lab freaked and took off without warning; well Delgado took off right after it which freaked the lab out even more. I recalled Delgado and he didn't listen so suddenly we have two dogs in an all-out full speed chase, on one of the passes they came close enough the guy was able to nab Delgado. He just grabbed his collar/scruff and held him so I could grab him. I thanked him and leashed him, said a quick "sorry about that!" and went on our way. Neither of us panicked, in the end neither dog was hurt though the lab was still pretty freaked out. Whose fault was it? The guys for bringing an off leash fearful dog into an area where off leash dogs are permitted? Delgado had an excellent recall but failed it at that moment, so sure more training. Pointing fingers doesn't help, neither of us blamed the other or the dog, we just dealt with the situation and parted.


Same park another day – both of my dogs are off leash and enjoying running. We come up to a person walking a large dog on leash, Delgado goes to greet and the guy flips out. Delgado was about 10’ away and stops as the guy is yelling and kicking in his general direction telling him to get away from them, I immediately recalled Delgado which he obeyed and the guy kept walking. Sure, I could have screamed back at him – he was in the MIDDLE of the park, he could have been walking around the edges or even the far back where it was much less busy. But in the end, who cares. He freaked, Delgado never went near him, and in the end no harm no foul. I never saw him again so maybe he learned his lesson, who knows



In the second situation if the guy had grabbed Delgado and done as you did, I would have been extremely upset. As soon as he grabbed Delgado’s collar Delgado stopped and was quiet, so there would have been no reason to do anything else. He didn’t yelp or freak so obviously the guy held him tight enough to prevent him from running again but not enough to hurt. If the Golden did the same and truly ceased then I would have stopped it there, wait for the other owner to take control of their dog and leave. If the Golden was still raring to go, then I don’t see how escalating slightly is wrong.


Hind sight is always 20/20 and mistakes happen in a split second with dogs. The main thing is to learn from them and do our best to keep our dogs safe from even themselves


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Tysons is a little dog magnet. Yesterday he was attacked by a tiny chi chi type dog. It was on a extension leash and launched itself at his head. It made contact surprisingly ebough. Tyson did not react. I dont get it. He kept walking and the chi at him and hes plowed on before when a Australian cattledog bit his ear. I was embarrassing for the man I am sure to have such an out of control small dog attack, I did not get an apology. Should I have grabbed that little 6 pound dog and slammed him into the ground? No...but I wish I got an apology at the least...although part of me really wanted to throw that misbehaving miserable yappy crap dog right into the river.


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## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

Here is my 2 cents as a newbie to training/playing in public places with Ruby (~8 mo). I always look like I'm training.... Even when we are playing (which go hand-in-hand). People seem to avoid us... Even with their dogs. I wear work-out clothes, a treat pouch, leash around neck, two balls on rope (tug and fetch). I keep her on a long lead and stay active and involve. I did have one dog escape from its owner that wanted to play with us. I put Ruby behind me and yelled "call your dog." Maybe I was lucky it wasn't aggressive and I was able to intervene in time. But after reading several stories on this forum, I've decided that it's not okay for Ruby to play with any dog that jaunts up. And I'm not good at telling people to leave us alone, so I just put on my 'don't mess with us' attire and attitude. I'm not sure if that will help if there is 'next time' but might help prevent an unwanted situation.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Tysons is a little dog magnet. Yesterday he was attacked by a tiny chi chi type dog. It was on a extension leash and launched itself at his head. It made contact surprisingly ebough. Tyson did not react. I dont get it. He kept walking and the chi at him and hes plowed on before when a Australian cattledog bit his ear. I was embarrassing for the man I am sure to have such an out of control small dog attack, I did not get an apology. Should I have grabbed that little 6 pound dog and slammed him into the ground? No...but I wish I got an apology at the least...although part of me really wanted to throw that misbehaving miserable yappy crap dog right into the river.




for small dogs if they press attacks people seem to say we should just kick them or whip them away before they get caught in our dogs throat, but the owners will be furious and might attack u looool TRUST ME ive seen fist fights over dogs and if the dog is protective of their owner? The siutation gets way worse. :help::wild:


I usually give small dogs COLD stare and say NO!! even tho they are so cute and adorable usually, last time i did that with a HUGe drunk man told me i needed a muzzle for himself lol


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I can't believe some of the things I'm hearing.

First, the offended dog wasn't being aggressive, could have done damage if he wanted to, but the OP should be careful that his dog doesn't become aggressive because of this? The dog could have been fighting much harder, but that doesn't mean he wasn't going after him with intent. It wasn't over as quick as it started because it had to be stopped with force. That is, at best, an overcorrection which is NOT appropriate and is a GREAT way to start a REAL dog fight, and not something I will ever allow to happen to any of my dogs. 

It was made clear in the original post that the OP was at an on leash park, not dog park. Personally, I break leash laws numerous times a week because my dogs are under my control and I'm willing to take the risk/fine. I've only been met with interest and compliments that my dogs behave so well off leash, holding downs while dogs on leash walk within 10ft of us, etc. It's a perfectly acceptable decision to make, IMO, as long as you have control over your dog, which the OP did at all times. If someone else broke that law and came over to me, I'd pick my dog up or leash them and tell them to stop advancing. If they continued, I'd use force. My dogs would be possessive over their Frisbees here and I could absolutely see a dog attacking them for growling over it. And if that were to happen or a dog were to randomly attack mine like in the OPs case, you'd better believe that I want my dog off leash to be able to move freely and get away. I'd drop a leash if they were leashed ANYWAY. So I think that is a moot point. 

So yeah, I go to the leash-law park and take my possessive dogs off leash to play Frisbee where there are other dogs at all the time with no problems. People love watching us play and will stand around with their dogs to ask questions and such. Just have to learn to speak up. 

I don't see anything wrong with what the OP did, but he will have to be more proactive to avoid such situations next time.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> the OP should be careful that his dog doesn't become aggressive because of this


? 
if youre referring to my posts i never said the dog was not aggressive but it was not aggressive in the manner we think of as aggression
it was being a bully to a puppy but aggressive is ripping the dog open and leaving puncture wounds
perhaps we can reword aggression and say the dog was attempting to be dominant 
but imo an aggressive dog will require the other dog to go to the vet for stitches

in the scheme of things this was not an aggressive incident and the evidence is that his dog required nothing more than some saliva wiped off

after having been around dogs for my entire life it is my experience that if another dog got close enough to leave saliva on the other dog it is close enough to bite and keep ahold of that dog and do some damage


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> ?
> if youre referring to my posts i never said the dog was not aggressive but it was not aggressive in the manner we think of as aggression
> it was being a bully to a puppy but aggressive is ripping the dog open and leaving puncture wounds
> perhaps we can reword aggression and say the dog was attempting to be dominant
> ...


 So you're saying my ex's Mali mix wasn't aggressive, because my puppy didn't go get stitches, even though he punctured his eyelid on one occasion, and grabbed his face/ear and shook the **** out of him on another, needing to be pulled off? (with lots of blood both times)

You're projecting your definition of aggression onto this situation, which is all a matter of perspective. I would call a major over correction/dominating without back off to be aggression. He is looking for a fight. Growling, snarling, rolling, etc. are all aggressive behaviors. 

The dog wasn't trying to establish a pecking order, he was trying to start a fight. Just because one dog doesn't engage and make it come full circle, doesn't mean that it wasn't aggressive.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> So you're saying my ex's Mali mix wasn't aggressive, because my puppy didn't go get stitches, even though he punctured his eyelid on one occasion, and grabbed his face/ear and shook the **** out of him on another, needing to be pulled off? (with lots of blood both times)
> 
> You're projecting your definition of aggression onto this situation, which is all a matter of perspective. I would call a major over correction/dominating without back off to be aggression. He is looking for a fight. Growling, snarling, rolling, etc. are all aggressive behaviors.
> 
> The dog wasn't trying to establish a pecking order, he was trying to start a fight. Just because one dog doesn't engage and make it come full circle, doesn't mean that it wasn't aggressive.


This is with the assumption that the GSD did not challenge or growl at the golden over the ball. Sure we got a story but there are two sides of the story and I'm not so quick to believe that the GSD didn't send a signal to the other dog. Someone said this is the second time that the OPs dog was bit by another dog. This GSD is not innocent.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

djetzel did i say stitches?? there you go putting words in my mouth again
i said 'vet visit' and "blood" which you just said your incidents included at least the blood part

not just saliva

you had punctures and blood so that is aggression

what part of 'this dog could have done way more damage ' in the time allotted are people missing? 

and yeah when i say his dog can become dog aggressive over this i am talking about the past incident and this one combined
it only stands to reason and people say this all the time about dog parks and attacks there so i dont know why people think this incident would be different??

lol perhaps because it occured in a non-dog park setting this dog should know he shouldn't become aggressive over it? :crazy:

oh and i am presuming that if a dog gets attacked resulting in


> lots of blood both times)


 that the owner of the bleeding dog would take it to the vet to see how bad the damage was


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

On the other hand, maybe OP's pup _won't_ be dog aggressive because in both cases OP shoved the attacking dog off? JMO, but our dogs know when we have their backs.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

it could just as easily go the way of
"i'll get that dog before it gets me' which is how many leash reactive dogs start off :shrug:


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

my boy diesel-I'm just curious if you'd consider a dog be aggressive when they rush out of their yard barking, growl, hackles up, lunge at my dog, bite his butt... but no puncture wounds, no blood, just saliva and ruffled fur. It took me to get in between them in that split second... but it's not aggression because no blood, stitches or vet visit? He was just being dominant? Protective? Wanted to play?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

llombardo said:


> This is with the assumption that the GSD did not challenge or growl at the golden over the ball. Sure we got a story but there are two sides of the story and I'm not so quick to believe that the GSD didn't send a signal to the other dog. Someone said this is the second time that the OPs dog was bit by another dog. This GSD is not innocent.


So instead of taking the story at face value and asking questions, we're going to assume the OP is leaving something out and that something else happened? 

If the OPs dog was being possessive, he would have laid the golden out (or at least fought back and created a real dog fight) not ran away from him. That makes no sense in the way the story was illustrated. 

My GSD pup was attacked at least three times, two of which drawing blood, by my ex's otherwise friendly dog. My dog never fought back. Does that mean my dog was not innocent?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> djetzel did i say stitches?? there you go putting words in my mouth again
> i said 'vet visit' and "blood" which you just said your incidents included at least the blood part
> 
> not just saliva
> ...


 Just because more damage could have been done and wasn't, doesn't mean the dog isn't acting aggressively. 

I didn't take my dog to the vet, so that means it wasn't an aggressive attack? You can presume I would have, but I had no reason to either time. I assessed the damages, cleaned the wounds, and put my dog on antibiotics to prevent infection.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Not all attacks are warranted or justified. Delgado got attacked at a dog park by a husky when he was 6 months - his crime was sniffing *another* dog (not the husky). Considering the fact he never so much as looked in the husky's direction I fail to see how he was giving off signals that would cause the husky to react. The husky ran over and pinned him to the ground by the scruff, the owner just stood there and screamed while another man grabbed the husky and I grabbed Delgado. It was over in a heartbeat, and thankfully Delgado was still puppy enough to just submit so there was no blood, if he tried that again now there'd be at least one dog at the vet er or human  The owner (a older woman) ran off without even an apology while I was checking Delgado over

A few days before the fight I got scolded by the husky's owner because to quote "he doesn't like little dogs" when she saw I had Jazzy with me. Gee, and this is a dog you're bringing off leash in a park where multiple sizes and breeds of dog's are. Genius  There was no specificed 'large dog' or 'small dog' area. I looked her straight in the face and told her that my small dog had just as much right to be there as her dog did. She huffed off, at least it was Delgado and not Jazzy he decided to attack :crazy: Dang dog had NO recall too, I found out later it had attacked multiple other dogs in the park as well 

Thankfully she made the husky wear a large cow bell because he kept running off on her so whenever I heard the bell I'd head the opposite direction


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

wyoung that is vastly different than two dogs in a park where they are supposed to be leashed and were not 
neither dog owns that territory and neither think they do

i believe there are levels of aggression and actually so do the experts as they have a scale to rate dog bites and attacks

what i said pages ago is if this dog truely wanted to hurt the ops dog it would have

other people started wanting to define aggression so have at it

i stand by my original statement that *this dog could have injured the ops dog but didnt *

therefore the ops reaction was over the top 
wasnt that the original question???


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> *this dog could have injured the ops dog but didnt *


Didn't, because the OP stepped in like a responsible adult and de-escalated the situation by getting the dog to leave his alone. 

We all know it COULD HAVE done worse. That doesn't mean it wouldn't have escalated to that or that the dog wasn't being aggression.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> wyoung that is vastly different than two dogs in a park where they are supposed to be leashed and were not
> neither dog owns that territory and neither think they do
> 
> i believe there are levels of aggression and actually so do the experts as they have a scale to rate dog bites and attacks
> ...


Can you link anything on that? I'd like to read something if you have it.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Just because more damage could have been done and wasn't, doesn't mean the dog isn't acting aggressively.


my boy diesel-I think this is the point trying ot be made ^^^

And I agree, more damage probably could have been done, and maybe without intervention, might have. But I just wanted you to clarify what you meant, and you said there are levels of aggression, and based on OPs original story.. without speculating.. it appears to have approached with "some level" of aggression.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

back to the original info we were given basically
his dog was not being ripped apart so yes he went over the top in_ his_ aggression _towards the dog_

links to explanation of levels of aggression for strom
thing is steve you can google this yourself 

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=dog levels of aggression

dogs do have an ability to inhibit their bites and it sounds like the golden in this case did just that


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> back to the original info we were given basically
> his dog was not being ripped apart so yes he went over the top in_ his_ aggression _towards the dog_
> 
> links to explanation of levels of aggression for strom
> ...


Yeah, I know. But I wanted to read the exact expert you did.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

oh 
yeah
that would be dr. dunbar

http://www.dogtalk.com/BiteAssessmentScalesDunbarDTMRoss.pdf


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

btw for clarification
djetz was the first to accuse some of us of saying "the dog was not being aggressive"



> First, the offended dog wasn't being aggressive,


 is what djetz said

i never said that and would not qualify this incident as aggressive or non- because i was not there
*what i said was that the dog did not injure his dog*
based on that the dog did not actually injure his dog we were all saying he could have simply pulled the dog off with its collar

martm was right that many of you are operating on 'what could have happend' instead of "what did happen"


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> btw for clarification
> djetz was the first to accuse some of us of saying "the dog was not being aggressive"
> 
> is what djetz said
> ...


If you'd like to quote my whole post, you'll see that I was giving a play by play of what you and others were saying. That first the dog was not being aggressive, but the dog was going to cause the OP's dog to become aggressive? You were flip flopping and I was calling you out on it. 

I never once said or thought that the dog wasn't being aggressive.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> back to the original info we were given basically
> his dog was not being ripped apart so yes he went over the top in_ his_ aggression _towards the dog_


That is your opinion, not fact. 

Maybe it's just me, but I'm going to intervene BEFORE my dog is being ripped apart.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

yep it is my opinon -- and that is what the op asked for :crazy:

djetz with all due respect go back and read my posts
you will see i never said anything about aggression

*AGGESSION is not what this thread is about*, djetz 

this post is about the ops account then his question if he was over the top in his reaction

the op never came here to ask if the dog was aggressive and in fact aggression was not even mentioned in his op!!
how are you missing that???


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I'm going to intervene BEFORE my dog is being ripped apart.


And you should! We all should! But you don't have to do it by making the other dog yelp. On top of that...grabbing a dog's back end, leaves you open for a bite. It's much harder for them to bite you if you have them by the collar. You know how in Schutzhund the helper will pinch the dog's back end to piss it off? There's a reason they go for that area...so why in the world would you do that? There are safer/better ways of dealing with these types of situations.

At the point OP's situation was...there was no need to grab a dog by the back, and make it go 3 feet. And again...not only is grabbing a collar safer, its also a much more effective correction as most dogs are used to collar corrections, and third it provides a physical restraint in case the dog keeps going.

And for the OP, my only lesson was that one day, you'll do it to the wrong dog, or you'll over react to a situation that's less "aggressive" than this one, and piss off the wrong dog owner...or correct a dog that doesn't need a correction. That's why its always better to just control your own dog and not get them into these situations in the first place.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Well, what did happen is easier to figure out after the fact MBD. Reading the Dunbar stuff, I'm just not able to picture myself figuring out in the moment thats only a level 2, no big deal. No way it could escalate to a 4 or 5, the dog will determine that before I know. After the fact, ok. I can see now they're fine, lets go our separate ways.

I'm not grabbing a strange dog by the collar. That dog can still bite you. I'm not grabbing him by the rear legs either. I don't see the op saying he flanked the dog, but I think he got the perfect results I would hope for. The dog cowering away and not coming after him. Personally, I would have used the Chuck it and a lot of yelling or even my leash. I don't want to physically hurt any dog, but I draw the line at contact when another dog charges mine, no degrees of biting.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i probably would have taken the handle end of the leash and whacked the dog on the nose while yelling 'no' and intervened before the dog got to mine

but then again i would not have had my dog running around off leash in an on- leash area so i dont have to deal with these type scenarios :shrug:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I spend a lot of time working on my dog being indifferent to other dogs, even the ones running at us, so most times my dogs indifference will calm things. I have had a couple of nervebags though, that even if they are remaining indifferent, they still become targets. 

The way our leash law is written, it comes down to control, not just being on leash. So as long as you're dog isnt bothering anyone, they tend to look the other way. I've had animal control watch me doing retrieves, technically in violation, but its something we all probably see all the time. Good or bad its just part of not living on our own private island.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> And you should! We all should! But you don't have to do it by making the other dog yelp. On top of that...grabbing a dog's back end, leaves you open for a bite. It's much harder for them to bite you if you have them by the collar. You know how in Schutzhund the helper will pinch the dog's back end to piss it off? There's a reason they go for that area...so why in the world would you do that? There are safer/better ways of dealing with these types of situations.


What? It's safer to grab a dog by a collar, right by it's mouth, than it's rear? 

That's just... I don't even...


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> The way our leash law is written, it comes down to control, not just being on leash. So as long as you're dog isnt bothering anyone, they tend to look the other way. I've had animal control watch me doing retrieves, technically in violation, but its something we all probably see all the time. Good or bad its just part of not living on our own private island.


Ditto!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> What? It's safer to grab a dog by a collar, right by it's mouth, than it's rear?
> 
> That's just... I don't even...


Yeah...a dog would have a hard time biting your hand if it's at the top of it's neck holding onto a collar. I mean...try biting the back of your neck right now and let me know how that goes. Also...my dog's collar isn't that close to it's mouth, you might need to check the fitting of your dog's collars.

What a dog can do, is quickly turn and bite towards it's back legs due to the flexibility it has in its back.

On top of all that...a dog is much more comfortable getting grabbed by the collar...as that's where most dogs are grabbed/corrected either through a leash or without a leash, and is less likely to strike out at that. Where as a dog isn't used to being grabbed by the back legs/on the butt, is likely to lash out and actually turn its aggression towards that.

I know...someone that doesn't see dogs bite or be in a high level of aggression is going to have a hard time understanding this.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Yeah...a dog would have a hard time biting your hand if it's at the top of it's neck holding onto a collar. I mean...try biting the back of your neck right now and let me know how that goes. Also...my dog's collar isn't that close to it's mouth, you might need to check the fitting of your dog's collars.
> 
> What a dog can do, is quickly turn and bite towards it's back legs due to the flexibility it has in its back.
> 
> ...


Maybe you have the athletic prowess to cinch that collar enough that they can't twist around, I'm not trying.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Maybe you have the athletic prowess to cinch that collar enough that they can't twist around, I'm not trying.


And yet you have the athletic prowless to grab a dog by the back and somehow avoid the bite that's coming at you?

For someone that knows what a flank is...I'm trying to figure out how you can get out of the way of that bite, but not grab a collar and prevent a bite.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Think this is bad? Just imagine the ruckus going on on some golden retriever forum.


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## Jambo (Apr 24, 2014)

Here's my $.02 on the original post (sorry for coming to the party late), I feel the owner of the golden has more fault here than you.

If there is any indication that her dog was aggressive the first time they met then she needed to leash her dog before approaching you and your dog the second time. This situation in its entirety could have been prevented if she was paying attention to her dog's body language and vocalizations (growling), the first time.

For you, I think maybe you where a little rough to the golden but maybe it was called for I cannot say for sure because I was not there. It shouldn't take that much force to snap a dog out of it. That being said naturally in the animal world if the pack leader is not pleased with a pack member they are do correct very sternly. (If you watch any of Ceaser Millan's "Dog Whisperer" shows you can see how he corrects problem cases and usually is met with a yelp).

The part where the dog lies flat is not cowering, it is submission, which is a good thing. The dog needs to know who is in charge.

If I was the golden's owner I would apologize to you. There is ABSOLUTELY NO reason why I shouldn't be able to control my dog. A person who can't control their dog to me is someone who is being controlled by their dog. They have no business having their dog off leash in a dog park in that case.

To me the MOST important 2 things your dog needs to understand is:
1) YOU are the pack leader and YOU are in control
2) YOU will protect your pack

Lastly, I would have probably said to the golden's owner "I apologize for being so rough with your dog, but please control your dog or leash it so that in the future instances like this or worse can be avoided."


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

martemchik said:


> And yet you have the athletic prowless to grab a dog by the back and somehow avoid the bite that's coming at you?
> 
> For someone that knows what a flank is...I'm trying to figure out how you can get out of the way of that bite, but not grab a collar and prevent a bite.


Maybe you should read what I said. I never said I had the prowless or prowess to do either.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

osito23 said:


> Think this is bad? Just imagine the ruckus going on on some golden retriever forum.


Lol yep. Would love to read that version


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Everyone stop!!!

CESAR has been mentioned!!!!

And Go!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Yeah...a dog would have a hard time biting your hand if it's at the top of it's neck holding onto a collar. I mean...try biting the back of your neck right now and let me know how that goes. Also...my dog's collar isn't that close to it's mouth, you might need to check the fitting of your dog's collars.
> 
> What a dog can do, is quickly turn and bite towards it's back legs due to the flexibility it has in its back.
> 
> ...


Martem, It's really easy for a dog to bite the hand that's holding the collar. That's why there are warnings everywhere not to take fighting dogs by the collar. Collar also twists. 
Also, you probably won't get the chance to put your hand there. You will get bitten way before. 
About the back legs. You pick them high in the air and rotate. The dog is busy stepping with the front and trying to not fall on his face.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Everyone stop!!!
> 
> CESAR has been mentioned!!!!
> 
> And Go!


Cesar who?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Martem, It's really easy for a dog to bite the hand that's holding the collar. That's why there are warnings everywhere not to take fighting dogs by the collar. Collar also twists.
> Also, you probably won't get the chance to put your hand there. You will get bitten way before.
> About the back legs. You pick them high in the air and rotate. The dog is busy stepping with the front and trying to not fall on his face.


Thanks, I love regurgitation of prior posts rather than actual real world experience.

Trust me, grabbing a collar, isn't that difficult when dogs are going at it. Like I said, they're used to that correction. Grabbing legs/feet is only good if the dog is already engaged, and probably not letting go. That way, you're guaranteed it won't snap back at you as it's mouth already has something in it. If you try to grab the back legs/feet of a dog that isn't engaged with a dog, the dog is highly likely to redirect that aggression at you. Different situations call for different techniques...the wheelbarrow method isn't a smart one if the dogs are running around and still trying to grasp onto each other.

I've grabbed collars plenty of times without a single bite...


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Leerburg Dog Training | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt

Collars slide. They aren't tight enough to stay exactly where you grab them. You'd be surprised at how many dog bites I got this way (without a dog fight going on!) while working in shelters before I learned better.. Grab their back and keep them moving and there's no physical way for them to bite. 

Steve Strom knows what's up.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Everyone stop!!!
> 
> CESAR has been mentioned!!!!
> 
> And Go!


Cesar who?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Leerburg Dog Training | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt
> 
> Collars slide. They aren't tight enough to stay exactly where you grab them. You'd be surprised at how many dog bites I got this way (without a dog fight going on!) while working in shelters before I learned better.. Grab their back and keep them moving and there's no physical way for them to bite.
> 
> Steve Strom knows what's up.


I invite both you and Steve to come to a Schutzhund training and grab one of the dogs by the legs while the helper has them excited and "keep moving" we'll see how they're not able to bite you.

I've seen my dog lick his ass one too many times to understand that he can easily get his head back there and bite.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I know...someone that doesn't see dogs bite or be in a high level of aggression is going to have a hard time understanding this.


So, I've worked in shelters for years, broken up dog fights there, been bitten by dogs a few times, grabbed a LOT for the collar thing.. worked in a sanctuary full of dogs who wanted to kill each other given any chance (and tried a few times)... You're an accountant, correct? I'm wondering where you see these fights and dog bites?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> Cesar who?


He who shall not be named...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> So, I've worked in shelters for years, broken up dog fights there, been bitten by dogs a few times, grabbed a LOT for the collar thing.. worked in a sanctuary full of dogs who wanted to kill each other given any chance (and tried a few times)... You're an accountant, correct? I'm wondering where you see these fights and dog bites?


That place where I train dogs to do more than CGC work.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Thanks, I love regurgitation of prior posts rather than actual real world experience.
> 
> Trust me, grabbing a collar, isn't that difficult when dogs are going at it. Like I said, they're used to that correction. Grabbing legs/feet is only good if the dog is already engaged, and probably not letting go. That way, you're guaranteed it won't snap back at you. If you try to grab the back legs/feet of a dog that isn't engaged with a dog, the dog is highly likely to redirect that aggression at you.
> 
> I've grabbed collars plenty of times without a single bite...


You are the one to talk about regurgitating. 
And I don't read the forum as much as you do, so if you're saying this was posted - I'll take your word for it.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I invite both you and Steve to come to a Schutzhund training and grab one of the dogs by the legs while the helper has them excited and "keep moving" we'll see how they're not able to bite you.
> 
> I've seen my dog lick his ass one too many times to understand that he can easily get his head back there and bite.


Yeah. Ed Frawley has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to Schutzhund. :rofl:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> That place where I train dogs to do more than CGC work.


Which is...?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I invite both you and Steve to come to a Schutzhund training and grab one of the dogs by the legs while the helper has them excited and "keep moving" we'll see how they're not able to bite you.
> 
> I've seen my dog lick his ass one too many times to understand that he can easily get his head back there and bite.


WOW, a real Schutzhund club? Trials and titled dogs, everything? Thanks! That's awsome. We just don't have anything like that in California. And I still never said anything about grabbing flanks, legs, nothing.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Yeah. Ed Frawley has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to Schutzhund. :rofl:


Are you or steve this Ed guy?

I'm talking about YOU...not this random person you decided to name. Or do you have all of his skills/abilities by reading one of his articles?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I've seen my dog lick his ass one too many times to understand that he can easily get his head back there and bite.


Interesting. Must be an SDA thing I don't know about. How do they judge that?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Thanks, I love regurgitation of prior posts rather than actual real world experience.
> 
> Trust me, grabbing a collar, isn't that difficult when dogs are going at it. Like I said, they're used to that correction. Grabbing legs/feet is only good if the dog is already engaged, and probably not letting go. That way, you're guaranteed it won't snap back at you as it's mouth already has something in it. If you try to grab the back legs/feet of a dog that isn't engaged with a dog, the dog is highly likely to redirect that aggression at you. Different situations call for different techniques...the wheelbarrow method isn't a smart one if the dogs are running around and still trying to grasp onto each other.
> 
> I've grabbed collars plenty of times without a single bite...


Real life experience. 

I grabbed Arwen and Jazzy by their collars when they were eating each other. Keeping 140 pounds of snarling, biting, young adult GSD bitches apart is nothing to sneeze at. I didn't get bit. Then. 

But when I went for the collar when Rushie and Arwen were going at it, I got bit bad. 

Since there is just one of me, and if there is a fight, there are at least two of them, I pretty much figure whatever works is fair game. If I fail in my management, etc, and my dogs do get into a scrap, I grab a tail and pull, I will pull the dog by the tail until I can get a gate in between, and so far it has worked without my getting bit. 

The wheel barrow approach might work if the one dog is tied to something or someone else has the other dog by the back legs, but when it is just you, you may have to pull 70 pounds of bitch along one-handed so that you can get that gate in between and closed and latched. 

Whatever. What were we talking about anyway?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Interesting. Must be an SDA thing I don't know about. How do they judge that?


Just my response to "impossible for a dog to bite you if you grab them by the back legs."

Maybe the other breeds can't do that, but I'm fairly certain a GSD wouldn't have any issues.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Just my response to "impossible for a dog to bite you if you grab them by the back legs."
> 
> Maybe the other breeds can't do that, but I'm fairly certain a GSD wouldn't have any issues.


Have you figured out yet that I said I would not grab the legs?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Have you figured out yet that I said I would not grab the legs?


Why not? I wouldn't try because I can't hold them high up enough, he's long. But from what I understand it works well. As long as you keep moving they need to sidestep with their front feet, no?

You're saying a dog can just bend back?
How would you break up a fight? Like a real fight?

ETA I've grabbed the collar the two times my dog had semi fights. Just a reflex. I know it's not a good thing to do.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Why not? I wouldn't try because I can't hold them high up enough, he's long. But from what I understand it works well. As long as you keep moving they need to sidestep with their front feet, no?
> 
> You're saying a dog can just bend back?
> How would you break up a fight? Like a real fight?
> ...


They're stronger then h*** when they're in that frame of mind and they can twist directions you can't imagine Lala. I'm going to beat one or both with something till one or both cowers away. Maybe its not fair to one of them, I don't care. You could still get bit no matter what you do, but for what I feel able to do and have done, this is how I'm doing it.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

ftr beating a dog rarely works unless you can hit a dog in a vulnerable spot
esp with one of those ball flinging tools a seriously engaged dog will likely not even notice
which brings us back to this point 
a dog that is not seriously engaged doenst need to be whipped with one of those tools and a colar grab would be more useful in that scenario

speaking of cesar 

*pull back from the back of his neck and collar – not from the top, but from the back and pull up
*
Read more: http://www.cesarsway.com/askcesar/anxiety/Breaking-up-Dog-Fights#ixzz3CTpZRFgH


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

i love all the topics now being discussed on this thread. need to break up a dog fight, use pepper spray. no hitting ,kicking or injury to either dog, from the spray. in most cases prevention is key, haven't seen much banter on that. on the rare occasion that a charging dog comes out of no where pepper spray again works great.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> They're stronger then h*** when they're in that frame of mind and they can twist directions you can't imagine Lala. I'm going to beat one or both with something till one or both cowers away. Maybe its not fair to one of them, I don't care. You could still get bit no matter what you do, but for what I feel able to do and have done, this is how I'm doing it.


Got you. It didn't sound like a good idea to me but I figured Ed Frawley knows what he's talking about. 


Question. Lets say the attacker is a pit and he doesn't let go. Then what? Break sticks should only be used by owners I heard because you will get bit after he releases. Is that true? 
So hitting the pit until he lets go? With what?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

huntergreen said:


> i love all the topics now being discussed on this thread. need to break up a dog fight, use pepper spray. no hitting ,kicking or injury to either dog, from the spray. in most cases prevention is key, haven't seen much banter on that. on the rare occasion that a charging dog comes out of no where pepper spray again works great.


What if it's windy? What if it just pisses him off?


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

windy, get closer, have yet to see it just piss off a dog, bear or coyote. all have turned and ran.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Got you. It didn't sound like a good idea to me but I figured Ed Frawley knows what he's talking about.
> 
> 
> Question. Lets say the attacker is a pit and he doesn't let go. Then what? Break sticks should only be used by owners I heard because you will get bit after he releases. Is that true?
> So hitting the pit until he lets go? With what?


I think Ed knows what he's talking about, the wheelbarrow method does work and yes, as it was pointed out, for actual fighting. IME, With one clear aggressor, it's not too difficult to WB that dog and break it up. When both dogs are equally involved, someone will need to grab the other dog or you'll just be dragging both. DW's trainer prefers to grab the tail. The effect is the same and it works for him, but I'd be concerned about further injury. I'm sure there are dogs that won't let go and some other method may be necessary, but so far the times I've used WB, it has worked.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> *prevention is key,* haven't seen much banter on that.


this times like 100
or 1000
!!!


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

My neighbors have a pit bull and not much in the way of getting that dog off once it grabs hold. Saw neighbor use a leather leash wrap it around neck and twist until the dog went unconscious. Needless to say i don't walk that direction with my dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Nigel said:


> I think Ed knows what he's talking about, the wheelbarrow method does work and yes, as it was pointed out, for actual fighting. IME, With one clear aggressor, it's not too difficult to WB that dog and break it up. When both dogs are equally involved, someone will need to grab the other dog or you'll just be dragging both. DW's trainer prefers to grab the tail. The effect is the same and it works for him, but I'd be concerned about further injury. I'm sure there are dogs that won't let go and some other method may be necessary, but so far the times I've used WB, it has worked.


Yes, actual fighting. What's everyone else talking about. 


I tried to wb my dog at home when he wasn't fighting, just to see what it's like and I can't handle him that way even in peaceful mode. If he was smaller then yes. So for me wb is out. 

But even a smaller dog, can't it decide it doesn't care that his face will get smashed to the ground for a few moments and bend back?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Yes, actual fighting. What's everyone else talking about.
> 
> It was mentioned earlier the WB could get you bit if the dogs were in a ramped up excited state, but not quite in all out fight yet, which is certainly possible.
> 
> ...


The dog wants to stay up, they are still pumped up and don't want to go down and be vulnerable.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Nigel said:


> The dog wants to stay up, they are still pumped up and don't want to go down and be vulnerable.


I don't get it

I thought wb works because you lift the dog's back feet in the air and he's then busy sidestepping with his front feet so that he doesn't plant his face in the ground. That's not how wb works?

If it is then can't the dog decide that he doesn't care, stop sidestepping and just bend and bite you?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

lalachka said:


> I don't get it
> 
> I thought wb works because you lift the dog's back feet in the air and he's then busy sidestepping with his front feet so that he doesn't plant his face in the ground. That's not how wb works?
> 
> If it is then can't the dog decide that he doesn't care, stop sidestepping and just bend and bite you?


That is pretty much how it works, but the dogs adrenalin is going from the fight, they are still mainly focused on the other dog. Getting to a point where the dog doesn't care/relax can a long time, depends on the dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Nigel said:


> That is pretty much how it works, but the dogs adrenalin is going from the fight, they are still mainly focused on the other dog. Getting to a point where the dog doesn't care/relax can a long time, depends on the dog.


This makes sense. Thank you for your patience))))


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Break sticks should only be used by owners I heard because you will get bit after he releases. Is that true?
> So hitting the pit until he lets go? With what?


I have a break stick and carry it with me, I would use it on a pit that wasn't mine. But the couple of times we've run into a pit that came after the dogs once I got the dogs separated the pit was nice as could be to me, so I have never had to go any further.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So I know you all don't like me much but I just read this whole thread and it's fascinating. 
Shadow is one of those 'target dogs'. No matter how hard I try dogs want to attack her. She is now dog aggressive. 

I am not a tiny woman, but by no means large. 5'8" 135lbs

Sabi took offense to a younger bitch pushing her luck and they got right at it. I grabbed Sabi by the collar and pulled her away while sort of hip checking the other bitch away from us. Fight over. Both girls had minor injuries, I had none. Combined weight of dogs, 140 lbs.

Bud got attacked by a loose dog, some furry mix large and brown. The other dogs owner and I both grabbed back legs and pulled. I got bitten, he didn't. His dog was focused on Bud, as soon as I touched Bud he redirected. A sharp 'Hey!' minimized it but it was a nice bite. 

Bud and Sabi went at it over a pup I was fostering that Bud got to close to. Hose on power spray and some sharp smacks with a leash and they both retreated. Bud had some gashes, Sabi did not. 

Shadow got attacked by a loose dog when she was 4 mnths old or so. It had her in its mouth and was shaking her. I was alone. I couldn't let go of Shadows leash as it was trying to pull her away from me so I kicked it, repeatedly, in the face until it let go. Then I kept kicking until it wanted to go somewhere else.

There are any number of ways to break up a fight, and some work better on some dogs. Ultimately I would rather prevent them. It is also worth noting that a vast majority of dog fights are not much more the noise, slobber and flying fur.
To the OP, I used to watch Sabs 'tune' youngsters. It looked mean but ultimately all she was doing was teaching them to respect their elders. She would get tired of their crap and grab them or snap at them, they would yelp and cower, she would hover for a minute and then play would resume at a more polite level. That said, I do give you credit for your willingness to defend your dog and I am sure you have learned your lesson.


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