# New puppy with 3 missing toe nails



## ShepherdNY

Hello. My wife and I are going to PA this weekend to look at some GS puppies. All of the puppies are AKC registered. One of the breeders we contacted told us that the puppy was missing 3 toe nails on one foot. Is that something I should be concerned with. I do not know if the toe nails broke off, or if they never grew. Does anyone know of any questions I should ask? Any help you can provided will be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you,

David


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## ShepherdNY

Anyone?


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## Sunflowers

I would pass and find a reputable breeder.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/225114-loooking-reputable-breeder-pa.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## kiya

No, please look into finding a reputable breeder be careful that your not dealing with a puppy mill.


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## ShepherdNY

I don't think this is a puppy mill. It seems to be a family home and mother is still on premises. 



> These handsome puppies have been raised on our family farm and are used to being played with by children. They are AKC registered and will make premium companions! They are up to date with their shots and dewormer and have been vet checked as well. The mother is a family pet and is on the premises. The puppies will be ready to leave for their new homes on August 24.


This is a quote from the website. I have been searching on Lancasterpuppies.com.


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## kelseycub

Where do you live? Perhaps someone could recommend breeders in your area that you can be a little less skeptical about.


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## Kittilicious

I've never heard of a dog with missing toenails. I'm interested to know if the pup was born this way? I don't see why it would be something that would cause issue later on in life, but I'm not sure?


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## kelseycub

A breeder near us is having a few exceptional litters in the near future. I plan to get my next puppy from them.

I say this because we are close to PA and maybe worth the trip. 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vom-Eisenraben-German-Shepherds/294729990652777

Vom Eisenraben - Upcoming Litters


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## Jax08

ShepherdNY said:


> I don't think this is a puppy mill. It seems to be a family home and mother is still on premises.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a quote from the website. I have been searching on Lancasterpuppies.com.


This is a puppymill or a BYB. How much is the puppy?


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## Nigel

ShepherdNY said:


> I don't think this is a puppy mill. It seems to be a family home and mother is still on premises.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a quote from the website. I have been searching on Lancasterpuppies.com.


Try making a thread looking for breeders in your area. List the traits your looking for, you'll get more breeders to look into and find the right pup.


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## lhczth

Huge puppy mill area. Though missing toes might happen if a bitch gets overly rough with her pup, that is pretty uncommon and more likely due to a less than diligent and conscientious breeder with an overly stressed bitch. I would keep looking.


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## FoxyMom

ShepherdNY said:


> I don't think this is a puppy mill. It seems to be a family home and mother is still on premises.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a quote from the website. I have been searching on Lancasterpuppies.com.


I wouldn't be so sure. I think I found the listing you are talking about. Even if they aren't a puppy mill, they are a byb at best. The price is much lower that what a reputable breeder would be selling GSD pups for. I'm not judging you if that's the route you want to take (we've done it) but in case you are thinking they are reputable, they aren't. There are OFA (hip/elbow tests) certificates listed. 

You should check out this link if you want to know how to find a reputable breeder. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## FoxyMom

That should say there are *no* OFA certain listed. 


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## ShepherdNY

Thank you for all of the responses. The puppies are around $650. This seems to be the average price. Is there a way that I can tell that it's a puppy mill? Questions that I can ask? Or should I just assume that puppies in this area are puppy mills?

Would the AKC register pups from mills? 

Also, he is not missing toes, just the toe nails on a couple of toes.


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## kiya

No reputable breeder will sell their puppies on a anytownpuppies.com site. AKC registered really doesn't prove anything. This could also be a puppy broker which is just as bad.
Sorry you will find a lot of people very hot on this topic.


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## kiya

ShepherdNY said:


> Would the AKC register pups from mills?
> .


Yes


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## ShepherdNY

What does byb mean? I am a noob at this...


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## ShepherdNY

> No reputable breeder will sell their puppies on a anytownpuppies.com site. AKC registered really doesn't prove anything. This could also be a puppy broker which is just as bad.
> Sorry you will find a lot of people very hot on this topic.


I can understand that this would be a very sensitive subject. It is really disappointing because we saw a few pictures of puppies we really liked and were hoping to come home with a puppy this weekend.


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## FoxyMom

ShepherdNY said:


> What does byb mean? I am a noob at this...


Back yard breeder. It's basically someone that says, "I've got se nice dogs. I think I'll breed them," without any sort of health testing or titles. Nothing to better the breed. 


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## JakodaCD OA

backyard breeder..= byb

I like that the woman was upfront about the missing toenails or toes, whatever , but yes, anyone can register a dog with AKC if the parents are registered, it doesn't stop puppy mills, brokers etc from doing it.

I may have missed what area you are in, but I would suggest you ask for breeder suggestions in your area. 

IF you are going to look at these puppies, I would ask and want to see, proof of OFA status, hips and elbows, not a guarantee but shows me the person breeding was atleast ofa'ing their breeding stock..

Is there a website for these puppies? maybe someone can take a look at it and give an opinion.

Personally Id probably pass, but I would want more information as well.


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## ShepherdNY

> Is there a website for these puppies? maybe someone can take a look at it and give an opinion.


Thanks again for the reply. Below are some links to puppies that we were looking at. The 3rd one in the list does have OFA certifications. 

Tiger - German Shepherd Puppy for Sale in Ronks, PA - German Shepherd - Puppy for Sale

Sidney - German Shepherd Puppy for Sale in Ronks, PA - German Shepherd - Puppy for Sale

Greg - German Shepherd Puppy for Sale in Millerstown, PA - German Shepherd - Puppy for Sale


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## ShepherdNY

We are also looking at this one. 

Ratchet - German Shepherd Puppy for Sale in Gordonville, PA - German Shepherd - Puppy for Sale


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## Sunflowers

I would not buy from anywhere that already has the puppies named. 

Being in a hurry can result in a buy because the pup is cute, and then you would be stuck. 

Take your time. Check the links we provided.


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## Capone22

Get off of Lancaster puppies. Puppy mill and byb central. Good breeders would never list their puppies there. Why don't you tell us what your looking for and people can give you actual breeders to call. $650 is not standard, except for puppy mills and byb. Lowest for a responsibly bred GSD is about $1,000-$1200. And more if you go show line. 


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## MadLab

Research it properly. Don't rush. A dog can live up to 15 years. A bad choice will cost you dearly temperament-wise or health wise.

I would want to see the weaning area and mother and father. Get an idea of the temperaments of the parents and gauge how well do the breeders look after the dogs.


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## MadLab

Ken Martin - YouTube

Puppy broker but more likely puppy farm as 'they have the female on the premises'. How many other females have they got on the premises, I wonder. Looks like a lot.


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## ShepherdNY

Okay, thank you for the responses. We had a respectable breeder. We were on a waiting list for a year and a half. We were waiting for a male and she had only 3 pups this litter, and they were all female. We were devastated because we waited so long. That's when we started looking online. 

We are looking for a male pup. Preferably 8-10 weeks old. We are looking for a mostly black, short coat shepherd. This will be a family pet. We were looking to spend under $1000k which seems to be impossible now. The worse part is that I have off from work next week and I was hoping to have one at the beginning of that time frame to help the pup adjust.


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## JakodaCD OA

are you open to shipping? Karen at Crooked Creek has beautiful dogs/puppies, there are some in the Fidelco guide dog program and others doing various things..

Google Crooked Creek Ranch..I would have no problem getting a dog from her..


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## JakodaCD OA

I also would look elsewhere, those are all what appear to be lancaster puppy mill dogs, you want to look at "breeder websites" , not generic ones like you listed


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## Nigel

Waiting can be difficult, but no where near as bad as taking a gamble and ending up with a pup with health or temperment issues. Stack the odds in your favor, buy from a reputable breeder.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I know it's disappointing that your other breeder didn't have the puppies you were hoping for. Often breeders can recommend other good reputable breeders, perhaps you could ask for recommendations from him/her?

Also here is the link to Crooked Creek Diane mentioned, they tend to have a lot litters with black puppies too:

Crooked Creek Ranch

Please follow everyone's advice on this, be very cautious and take your time, it will be worth it in the long run. I've dealt with some puppy mill dogs (not GSDs) and they often have severe problems with their temperament.


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## ShepherdNY

I can't thank you all for enough for the information you have provided. 

Just to recap- dogs from this website could potentially be from puppy mills and could potentially be from byb's. these dogs can potentially have temperament issues and medical issues, but this is not guaranteed.

I certainly do not want to buy from a puppy mill, and I am Leary about back yard breeders. I have had 2 GS that were not bred by reputable breeders. my sister has one as well and I think that I can speak for both of us by saying that we could not have asked for better companions. 

All in all... We have a lot of thinking to do. I thank you all for your advice.


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## onyx'girl

While you research breeders, sock away $ and before you know it, you'll have more than enough to support a good responsible breeder. 

And then save even more while you wait for the whelp(because you will be in on the breeding before that occurs!) save more while you wait for those long 8 weeks when the pups are with the littermates learning how to be a good puppy! Wow, just think of all that money you saved by going with a good breeder! 

If you don't want to go that route, rescue is a good way to get a really nice dog that has been vetted, temperament tested and any issues the dog may have should be disclosed to you.


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## Capone22

I understand the money part but think of it this way, spending maybe $500-1000 more for a well bred puppy from health and temperament tested parents can save you THOUSANDS in vet or behaviorist bills for all of the health and temperament problems common in the back yard bred and puppy mill puppies. It's so worth it in the long run. 


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## Liesje

ShepherdNY said:


> I can't thank you all for enough for the information you have provided.
> 
> Just to recap- dogs from this website could potentially be from puppy mills and could potentially be from byb's. these dogs can potentially have temperament issues and medical issues, but this is not guaranteed.
> 
> I certainly do not want to buy from a puppy mill, and I am Leary about back yard breeders. I have had 2 GS that were not bred by reputable breeders. my sister has one as well and I think that I can speak for both of us by saying that we could not have asked for better companions.
> 
> All in all... We have a lot of thinking to do. I thank you all for your advice.


Yes, except I'd replace "could potentially" with "pretty certainly". I don't know any reputable breeders that sell puppies through puppy brokers on web sites like this.

I don't know Karen/Crooked Creek personally but from what I've seen that would definitely be on my short list to check out.


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## Capone22

ShepherdNY said:


> I can't thank you all for enough for the information you have provided.
> 
> Just to recap- dogs from this website could potentially be from puppy mills and could potentially be from byb's. these dogs can potentially have temperament issues and medical issues, but this is not guaranteed.
> 
> I certainly do not want to buy from a puppy mill, and I am Leary about back yard breeders. I have had 2 GS that were not bred by reputable breeders. my sister has one as well and I think that I can speak for both of us by saying that we could not have asked for better companions.
> 
> All in all... We have a lot of thinking to do. I thank you all for your advice.


Yes, Iike ^ they said, not "could potentially be" they ARE from puppy mills and back yard breeders. All of them. 


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## Lucy Dog

Do not get any puppy off of lancaster. Puppy mill central. Just youtube "puppy mill" and you'll see the kind of conditions these dogs come from. This might be the single last place i'd ever look for a puppy. Don't let the discount prices and "home raised family dog" crap fool you. It's all bs to make potential puppy buyers to feel warm and fuzzy about their purchase.

From your name, I'm assuming you're in NY. Are you upstate? NYC area? Any specific lines or colors you're looking for? Is this just a family pet? Are you open to shipping? 

And you're most likely going to have to spend over $1k to get a well bred puppy. If you're not ready to spend that much, you may want to wait and save up a little more or start looking the rescue/adoption route.


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## Lucy Dog

Also... I looked at one of your links. 

Greg - German Shepherd Puppy for Sale in Millerstown, PA - German Shepherd - Puppy for Sale

Is this even genetically possible? A black and tan puppy produced by sable sire and dam. Pretty sure it's not and that's not the correct parents in the picture.


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## Jax08

Lucy Dog said:


> Also... I looked at one of your links.
> 
> Greg - German Shepherd Puppy for Sale in Millerstown, PA - German Shepherd - Puppy for Sale
> 
> Is this even genetically possible? A black and tan puppy produced by sable sire and dam. Pretty sure it's not and that's not the correct parents in the picture.


I think they can. A sable puppy can not be produced by two dogs that are not sable but sables can produce other colors

http://www.ehretgsd.com/GSDcolorGenes.pdf

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/88941-color-genetics.html


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## David Winners

ShepherdNY said:


> Okay, thank you for the responses. We had a respectable breeder. We were on a waiting list for a year and a half. We were waiting for a male and she had only 3 pups this litter, and they were all female. We were devastated because we waited so long. That's when we started looking online.
> 
> We are looking for a male pup. Preferably 8-10 weeks old. We are looking for a mostly black, short coat shepherd. This will be a family pet. We were looking to spend under $1000k which seems to be impossible now. The worse part is that I have off from work next week and I was hoping to have one at the beginning of that time frame to help the pup adjust.


He listed what he was looking for right here.


To the OP: is there a reason you're only considering male pups? If it's a pet you are looking for, I don't see why you would be do against a female from a good breeder.

If I had the choice between a female from a reputable breeder or the perfect looking male from a byb, I would take the female every time, and twice on Sunday. The right temperament, drive and nerves will make a great companion, not sex or coat color.

David Winners


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## Lucy Dog

Jax08 said:


> I think they can. A sable puppy can not be produced by two dogs that are not sable but sables can produce other colors
> 
> http://www.ehretgsd.com/GSDcolorGenes.pdf
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/88941-color-genetics.html


Nice link - I like that first one. It's a good breakdown. I'll have to bookmark that.

The sire is aw+aw sable and actually has a pretty nice DDR pedigree for what you'd find on a lancaster site. There really isn't much on the dam though. She's not on pedigree database and couldn't find anything through google, so who knows.


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## onyx'girl

She looks like she's a puppy pumping out machine.


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## Lucy Dog

onyx'girl said:


> She looks like she's a puppy pumping out machine.


Exactly what I thought when I first saw that picture.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Excellent point David.

*@ShepherdNY*, it's good that you are open to the information provided here.

There's some BYBs out there who aren't terrible and there have been some debates on this in the past as to how bad or not they are. There are people who have gone to very good breeders and just had bad luck with a health issues too, no guarantees....in life and genetics.

*BUT*...

There is stacking the odds in your favor for better health, better temperament and breeder support and as the picture Onyx girl posted illustrates, even if you do get a puppy that is healthy, think of the mothers.......and other dogs in the operation that aren't ever going to be in a loving home...do you want to inadvertently support that?

Again I really respect that you are open minded and hope you'll make the right decision when puppy shopping and end up with a wonderful companion.





David Winners said:


> He listed what he was looking for right here.
> 
> 
> To the OP: is there a reason you're only considering male pups? If it's a pet you are looking for, I don't see why you would be do against a female from a good breeder.
> 
> If I had the choice between a female from a reputable breeder or the perfect looking male from a byb, I would take the female every time, and twice on Sunday. The right temperament, drive and nerves will make a great companion, not sex or coat color.
> 
> David Winners


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## ShepherdNY

Thank you for the comments everyone. I am really learning a lot. Through this thread, I have learned that I have only had BYB dogs in the past. I had no idea what made a breeder reputable. I do have to say that it's a little upsetting knowing now where these dogs probably came from. 

Here are pictures of my sisters GS. He is 12 years old and was bought in PA for $500.



























This is Jake. We bought him from someone local. I don't believe he had any papers. He lived until he was 12. 










This is Khai  This is my parent's new dog after Jake. He has papers and was kind of bought from a convent that breeds GS in Pennsylvania. They did not want to take any money for him, but they gave some money as a donation. I think $300 or so. In the past 2 1/2 years they have bred the Dam twice. This is the bloodline we were waiting for. This dog has an excellent bloodline that can be traced back to Germany. He is a great dog that is also great with children. Here is a picture. 










I know that everyone is saying that BYB's can have temperament issues and medical issues, but I have had dogs in the past that were great. My sister's GS is a great dog. I will most likely take everyone's advice, but my wife and I have to have a discussion and really think about what we need to do. I am grateful for the education and I will certainly pass this on to my family, which all love GS dogs. For someone that has had these dogs my whole life, it's incredible how much I did not know. 

Again, thank you for all of your comments.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Beautiful dogs. 

In blue, please trust me, in this you are *not* alone, been there myself! 

You haven't even delved into the sub categories of GSDs yet, showline vs workingline and the subtypes therein!

German Shepherds, I call them the most complicated dog breed in the world.

 





ShepherdNY said:


> <snipped>
> 
> 
> I know that everyone is saying that BYB's can have temperament issues and medical issues, but I have had dogs in the past that were great. My sister's GS is a great dog. I will most likely take everyone's advice, but my wife and I have to have a discussion and really think about what we need to do. I am grateful for the education and I will certainly pass this on to my family, which all love GS dogs. For someone that has had these dogs my whole life, it's incredible how much I did not know.
> 
> Again, thank you for all of your comments.


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## lalachka

ShepherdNY said:


> I don't think this is a puppy mill. It seems to be a family home and mother is still on premises.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a quote from the website. I have been searching on Lancasterpuppies.com.


It's 99.9% a puppy mill, I got my dog from there. When I realized they were Amish I felt good and bought the dog ( he was in a barn with a horse and his sister, looked very familyish). 

And then a few days later I learned Amish are known for puppy mills, they house their operations in the back, far away so that no one hears dogs barking and then bring out a few pups and put them in a barn when customers come. 

I LOvE my dog but I took a gamble and his mom is miserable and I helped contribute to it. 


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## Liesje

Your dogs are beautiful! They look much loved.

For me, the issue is not so much quality and health. Many BYB and puppy mill dogs come from similar lines as nice dogs from good breeders. Many people have awesome dogs from BYBs, puppy mills, online brokers, and pet stores. I wouldn't want anyone to feel ashamed about their dog. My issue is that often the BYB and mill dogs are being bred just to make money. The breeders are not stewards of the breed. They don't train and exhibit their dogs, they don't provide dogs for service work, SAR, police work. Often the dogs are kept in dirty kennels or cages. Their existence is just being bred so the breeder can sell puppies. Often they *are* healthy dogs with nice temperaments and beautiful structure. But I personally love this breed and don't want to spend my money support that type of breeding. I'd rather give my money to a breeder whose breeding female is also a family pet and constant companion, a breeder who has consistently produced dogs with top temperaments and health (that can actually be verified with health certifications, dogs with titles and/or actually working in their respective fields), a breeder who has contributed to the breed community and is not just making money selling puppies.


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## Sunflowers

ShepherdNY said:


> Thank you for the comments everyone. I am really learning a lot. Through this thread, I have learned that I have only had BYB dogs in the past. I had no idea what made a breeder reputable. I do have to say that it's a little upsetting knowing now where these dogs probably came from.
> 
> Here are pictures of my sisters GS. He is 12 years old and was bought in PA for $500.
> 
> This is Jake. We bought him from someone local. I don't believe he had any papers.
> 
> I know that everyone is saying that BYB's can have temperament issues and medical issues, but I have had dogs in the past that were great.
> 
> Again, thank you for all of your comments.


Ah, well, we tried. 
Good luck to you.


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## ShepherdNY

> Ah, well, we tried.
> Good luck to you.


I did not say that I would not take the advice given in this thread. I value everyone's opinion. It's just that my wife is my partner and we will discuss make the decision together.  I'm sure we will make the right decision.


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## BowWowMeow

If you're near me, we have some great rescues in this area! There are also LOTS of BYBs around here. I have some gsds from local breeders that have severe temperament and health issues. Really sad. And they are giant too!


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## KZoppa

OP, my current adult female is basically a BYB dog. She's great. I love her to bits. She learned everything I wanted to teach her quickly and hasn't had any health problems but I'm really beginning to worry about her hips with the way she moves. She's great with kids and people yet she's got more of a friendly retriever personality. She has zero interest in walks. Her walk consists of down the half a block to the mailbox and back and she's done. Her father is a german showline. Her mother is "pet lines" aka BYB female. I paid $150 for her. 

My nearly 6 month old male I got from a reputable breeder. I paid $1500 + shipping costs. He has graduated from his first obedience class already, he's great with my kids, other dogs and my cats though he's definitely still trying to convince the cats to play with him. I wanted to stack the odds healthwise for him in our favor. I love my female, like I said, but my male so far was definitely worth the wait. he's a good boy when he wants to be and he does try very hard. 

I would suggest stacking the odds in your favor. Yes, you can wind up with some pretty good dogs from a BYB but with a reputable breeder, you'll get that lifetime support and extended family with health stacked in favor of the dog. You also have a better chance at getting the true GSD temperament. 

I also suggest checking out Karen from Crooked Creek. They have some really great dogs and the pups they produce are not only well cared for but truly loved. They stand by the puppies they bring into the world and you become a part of their family. I would not hesitate to get a pup from Karen.


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## Capone22

onyx'girl said:


> She looks like she's a puppy pumping out machine.


Something looks off about her back leg as well 


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## Capone22

ShepherdNY said:


> Thank you for the comments everyone. I am really learning a lot. Through this thread, I have learned that I have only had BYB dogs in the past. I had no idea what made a breeder reputable. I do have to say that it's a little upsetting knowing now where these dogs probably came from.
> 
> Here are pictures of my sisters GS. He is 12 years old and was bought in PA for $500.
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> This is Jake. We bought him from someone local. I don't believe he had any papers. He lived until he was 12.
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> 
> This is Khai  This is my parent's new dog after Jake. He has papers and was kind of bought from a convent that breeds GS in Pennsylvania. They did not want to take any money for him, but they gave some money as a donation. I think $300 or so. In the past 2 1/2 years they have bred the Dam twice. This is the bloodline we were waiting for. This dog has an excellent bloodline that can be traced back to Germany. He is a great dog that is also great with children. Here is a picture.
> 
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> 
> I know that everyone is saying that BYB's can have temperament issues and medical issues, but I have had dogs in the past that were great. My sister's GS is a great dog. I will most likely take everyone's advice, but my wife and I have to have a discussion and really think about what we need to do. I am grateful for the education and I will certainly pass this on to my family, which all love GS dogs. For someone that has had these dogs my whole life, it's incredible how much I did not know.
> 
> Again, thank you for all of your comments.


Beautiful dogs. All GSD can be traced back to Germany  that's not saying much. Can someone link him to the thread on what makes a good breeder? I can't do it on my phone. 

I made the mistake of going the cheaper and quicker route. I love my dog. Her temperament is great. She's working line and we are doing schutzhund. But her health has been a bit of a mess and have costed me a lot of money the past year. Trust us when we plead for you to go with the responsible breeders. We have been there. 



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## ShepherdNY

> I made the mistake of going the cheaper and quicker route. I love my dog. Her temperament is great. She's working line and we are doing schutzhund. But her health has been a bit of a mess and have costed me a lot of money the past year. Trust us when we plead for you to go with the responsible breeders. We have been there.


Thank you for the posts everyone. I am just curious as to what kind of health problems, and how old the dogs are? 

As for the person that has a dog with hip issues, were both parents OFA certified?


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## Liesje

Hip dysplasia is polygenic. You can't just have the parents OFA'd, you need to see several generations of hip scores as well as hip production (how are the two dogs already producing). This information is relatively easy to get from a decent breeder.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Hi again ShepherdNY, you're asking good questions.

On Hips, what Liesje said above plus a link that helps explain how breeders are trying to track and reduce hip dysplasia in their breeding programs through what is called ZW scores.

Home of West Coast German Shepherd Dogs - About Us

(btw I don't know this breeder in the link, I like their write up on how the ZW scores work, it explains for those of us who are not involved in breeding  )


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## kiya

Thank you for taking everything into concideration!
Aside from possible health/behavioral issues is the bigger picture of NOT supporting puppy millers. Everytime they can sell a puppy gives them reason to breed countless more puppies.


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## ShepherdNY

Thank you for all of the comments. I can't tell you how happy I am that I decided to do some research before I made any kind of decision. I know that we have barely scratched the surface, but I really am learning a lot.


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## ShepherdNY

Update: After much deliberation, my wife and I have decided to wait and contact more reputable breeders. Thank you all for the information. We have really learned a lot.


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## FoxyMom

ShepherdNY said:


> Update: After much deliberation, my wife and I have decided to wait and contact more reputable breeders. Thank you all for the information. We have really learned a lot.


:thumbup:


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