# Stubborness ?



## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

Can dogs be truly stubborn or is it better described as something else ?

The term is misleading and confusing for me as it was mentioned in the other thread, a dog can be so wrongly labelled because of poor training and the unwillingness of a trainer to try other techniques.

Also because a dog works well in motivational techniques does that make it biddable ? I wouldn't think so unless it can work for praise from the handler ? My own dog likes toys and loves treats and sure can do obedience quite nicely for those rewards but she is not what I would call truly biddable dog.

She does have some interest in working for me- all dogs do ( and of course depends on the relationship with the handler) to some degree but that is not what I am talking about here.

If I use compulsion, she can handle a correction and keep the enthusiasm up in obedience provided I use the type of reward she finds most valuable, food. However I cannot do that with just praise- not enough interest from her there, so there is no where to go resulting in avoidance type behaviours imo. Performance can look flat, slow- and perhaps to someone looking on they might label her a bit stubborn, but to me it seems better described really again as avoidance behaviours/don't want to be here attitude.

Just my limited experience, I apologise for the long post but this subject interests me and I wish to learn more.

Would like to hear more views/experiences on the topic.

Thankyou.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

This is a good post. I'd like to hear what people have to say. 

We always joke that Mac is spoiled and rebellious. But, we know in our hearts we haven't been consistent in our training and are now paying the price.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm mostly convinced that Rosa has a huge stubborn streak. I'm sure some of it is my lack of ability to motivate her as a trainer, but my weaker side wants to just call it stubbornness. If there is something that she does NOT want to do, she will NOT do it. She will turn her back on me, pretend I don't exist, and I cannot regain her focus until we start doing something else. I know the owner of her litter mate, and she has experienced the same attitude from her dog. They are both very determined dogs. So I can't blame Rosa's behavior entirely on my lack of training skills.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Stubbornness = intelligence the human doesn't know how to deal with. (I've learned a lot about this one )


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

There is nothing wrong with describing certain bloodlines or dogs with terms that describe their character. As long as the term used describes a dog and not a human. Stubborn is not a trait related to animals. It is a trait seen in humans. When people describe a dog as stubborn, for me, it shows an unwillingness, ( some might call that stubbornness  ), to look at themselves and their impact on the dog. 

Mostly, what people call stubborn is something else or a combination of things that may look like stubbornness but is not. Calling a dog stubborn is assigning human traits to an animal. Every person I know who does that , also has problems communicating with their dog. Lee's comment on the other thread was a general one and lots of dog people use that term as a form of shorthand. I don't allow myself to use that term but I understand what she was describing.

As a dog trainer who spends most of her time training the owners, I feel it is important that people clearly understand that dogs are not stubborn. That kind of thinking leads to the handler taking what the dog does personal. When you allow yourself to think that way, your ability to understand and train the dog, suffers and things get very difficult for the dog. The number one rule in dog training is to look at yourself first and make adjustments there. I can assure you, 99.9 % of the time, it is the person causing confusion and never the dog being stubborn.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i also think some dogs just shut down do to to much training or not the right motivational training....i wouldn't call it stubborn, just the handler needing to find a different way to motivate the dog.................


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> However I cannot do that with just praise- not enough interest from her there, so there is no where to go resulting in avoidance type behaviours imo


It could be you are not offering enough praise or praise that appeals to her. Most of the people I work with are a bit too introverted and only offer praise that is more "restrained". Dogs like enthusiasm and genuine praise, not simply a "good girl" without the handler's heart attached to it. 

Many times I can get people to open up a bit by telling them to use terms and behaviors in training that they use around the house when they are happy with their dog. Lots of people have kind of silly nicknames that they use with a certain tone that their dog really likes. When they use that in training, the dog perks right up because they understand it as something pleasant. Most people start out with rather gruff praise that I, as a person, find unappealing, so, I know the dog does.
One analogy I use that kind of clears it up for people is this. When you are at work, when you first get there in the morning the way certain people greet you is different. Some people are very up and happy and enthusiastic and greet you with a sincerity that will make you smile while others barely look up and grumble a good morning that means nothing...or worse. lol. We are affected by that and dogs even more so.

Your mood matters when you use compulsion and the dog must see your good mood as a result of her compliance. Here is a very good quote from an article written way back in 1980:

"What pleases the dog most in such a situation is our greatly positive mood and the satisfaction for a job well done. If we apply these experiences to the training of the young dog, it means that we must let the dog feel our satisfaction for the accomplishment of even the simplest task as soon as the praise-worthy exercise is concluded. This demands that the handler be demonstrative and enthusiastic. Persons who have trouble doing that may have to resort to play. But praise by play is still only a crutch for the handler who does not know how to communicate his happy enthusiasm to his dog."


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Vandal said:


> Mostly, what people call stubborn is something else or a combination of things that may look like stubbornness but is not. Calling a dog stubborn is assigning human traits to an animal. Every person I know who does that , also has problems communicating with their dog. Lee's comment on the other thread was a general one and lots of dog people use that term as a form of shorthand. I don't allow myself to use that term but I understand what she was describing.icult for the dog. The number one rule in dog training is to look at yourself first and make adjustments there. I can assure you, 99.9 % of the time, it is the person causing confusion and never the dog being stubborn.


Point taken - stubborn is what most pet owners and lots of trainers use as a descriptive term....I understand the difference, but as semantics, it works to get a point across....my DDR dog was not "stubborn" but did have her own agenda, esp when tracking....which she LOVED - and which people like T Floyd praised her for being the best dog he had seen of her sire...she was not easily motivated to do certain tasks, like dumbbells, and some would call her 
stubborn, even when she did them (trained with a clicker) she did them because it was expected, not because she enjoyed it...she would always throw in her own twists LOL - like stopping on top of the A frame to peruse the crowd...

Not a stubborn dog, a very smart dog who had her own agenda but did pretty much as asked...in her own way!

Lee


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

If you are referring to a particular dog, how old is it? I think they go through a rebellious phase where "It's all about ME!" and you have to work extra hard to motivate them. I agree with EMOORE that stubbornness is intelligence you don't know how to deal with(yet). When they are under 4 months they are anxious to please but soon after they start to look out for themselves. They see more of the world around them and find it much more interesting than their 'parents'. They get real smart real quick and continue to grow mentally so that dealing with them is much more complicated. So we have to adapt and expand our own abilities to motivate. Also have to learn or relearn what the meaning of patience is.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

When I'm working with teams at training class, it's very obvious that most of the "stubborn" behavior is really a lack of clarity....the dog either doesn't really know what the owner wants them to do, or doesn't understand that it isn't optional. Some dogs are more likely to work with you than others. My own dogs are opposite ends of the willingness spectrum.....my girls are very interested in participating in activities with me, and will offer behaviors or modify their behaviors in order to get a reward. (attention, treats, a tossed stick, a thrown leaf, whatever) 

My boy, OTOH, isn't much interested in commerce. He can work brilliantly, but teaching and solidifying new behaviors is a project. Every Freakin' Time. He isn't willing to "give" in order to "get", and everything new is "Make Me." He's physical (he body slams when he gets frustrated) and he stresses UP. Many would call him stubborn, but that's not quite accurate. Once you get the behavior (some would say, once he gives in) he performs very willingly and often enthusiastically, except for retrieving....he'd really much rather go get the db and take off with it! I'm not sure what to call him...my obedience trainer calls him "Different"


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## Vrettasta (Nov 23, 2010)

I also think I have a "stubborn" dog. He is just over 6 months old now, and he is a very well-behaved pup about 95% of the time. The other 5% is when, usually late at night, he wants to play (if he's not worn out from the day's activities)

He will sit there and bark bark bark at you, and when you make the slightest move he will take off, thinking it's a game. In this situation I usually get a hold of him and talk in a very assertive voice to stop doing what he's doing. That works for most of the time. I hate to crate him for this, but sometimes it's the only thing left to do. When I do, he calms down and goes to sleep, no problem.

I have been chalking it up to just a stubborn puppy who bugs you until he gets what he wants. It's not a big deal, but can be extremely annoying at times when I have to get some work done.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vandal said:


> As a dog trainer who spends most of her time training the owners, I feel it is important that people clearly understand that dogs are not stubborn. That kind of thinking leads to the handler taking what the dog does personal. When you allow yourself to think that way, your ability to understand and train the dog, suffers and things get very difficult for the dog. The number one rule in dog training is to look at yourself first and make adjustments there. I can assure you, 99.9 % of the time, it is the person causing confusion and never the dog being stubborn.


:thumbup:


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

This thread is really informative. I have a question. When a dog looks at you and clearly disregards a command they obviously understand...what is that about? My vet used the word "rebellious" but I feel its because he doesn't respect me as his leader. Just interested what others think...


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I think Anne pretty much summed it up.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I think dogs experience much the same gamut of emotions as humans although I do think they're generally finer tuned, more emotionally responsive than humans.

I do believe dogs can be stubborn. And even spiteful. However, I also believe that people assigning these emotions to their dogs (or cats) are quite often mistaken about the emotion itself & overwhelmingly wrong about 'motive'. 

Is stubborn inherently 'bad'? Years ago my old Sibe refused to open the door as I requested. He repeated his refusal, finally shaking his head at me he simply lay down. He was an ornery cuss & completely full of himself but this was *different*. I went to the door myself & there was my daughter's frail & elderly Toy Poodle waiting to come in. Had Cochise listened to me he'd have knocked Simba off the steps, hurting him, perhaps seriously injuring him. Yeah, he was (IMO) being stubborn. Appropriately so & good for him.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

RubyTuesday said:


> I think dogs experience much the same gamut of emotions as humans although I do think they're generally finer tuned, more emotionally responsive than humans.
> 
> I do believe dogs can be stubborn. And even spiteful. However, I also believe that people assigning these emotions to their dogs (or cats) are quite often mistaken about the emotion itself & overwhelmingly wrong about 'motive'.
> 
> Is stubborn inherently 'bad'? Years ago my old Sibe refused to open the door as I requested. He repeated his refusal, finally shaking his head at me he simply lay down. He was an ornery cuss & completely full of himself but this was *different*. I went to the door myself & there was my daughter's frail & elderly Toy Poodle waiting to come in. Had Cochise listened to me he'd have knocked Simba off the steps, hurting him, perhaps seriously injuring him. Yeah, he was (IMO) being stubborn. Appropriately so & good for him.


Wow that story teared me up for some reason...


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mac's Mom said:


> This thread is really informative. I have a question. When a dog looks at you and clearly disregards a command they obviously understand...what is that about? My vet used the word "rebellious" but I feel its because he doesn't respect me as his leader. Just interested what others think...


It's not about lack of respect, he just wants to see what he can get away with. Didn't you do that to your parents, even though you still loved and respected them?

Give the command once, and then enforce it.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

i call our one dog stubborn sometimes.

she knows all the basic commands, but sometimes chooses not to listen. it seems that simple to me... the mood will just strike her, and she will ignore a command


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

IME "stubborn" is usually a term used when a dog is being expected to perform beyond his level of training. Dog lags badly during off lead heeling in the OB ring? Probably lack of proper training for what heel is but often labeled as the dog being "stubborn". Dog won't come when called in distracting situations? Probably because the owner is expecting too much for the dog's level of training but often labeled as the dog being "stubborn". Dog has an unreliable sit stay? Probably because the owner skipped steps 3-20 in training a reliable stay but often labeled as the dog being "stubborn". Usually the accusation of being "stubborn" is followed by "he _*knows *_this...". Well yes, he may know this when he's in your living room and you have a handful of hotdogs. However, that is vastly different from him knowing it when he's at the park with kids playing, squirrels darting around, strange people, other dogs and oh so many smells. Or he may "know" heeling with a leash on, you giving him constant feedback and lots of rewards at your regular training place but that doesn't mean he knows it in an obedience ring when you totally change the picture, offer no feedback, take the leash off, go to a new place and expect him to work for several minutes with little to no feedback.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Vandal said:


> "What pleases the dog most in such a situation is our greatly positive mood and the satisfaction for a job well done. ..."


 This is so true. We need to be attentive and responsive to our dogs the same way as we expect them to give us their attention. When I am training with my dog I have to give my 100% because he feeds of my energy, and I also need to see that brightness and enthusiasm in his eyes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've heard GSDs referred to as being "stubborn", "difficult", "hard-headed", etc, even by people who claim to have grown up with the breed. I guess I've found the opposite to be true. Assuming the dog is decently bred and is not a nerve bag, overly suspicious, or overly defensive, to me GSDs are quite biddable, easy to please, easy to motivate, want to train and be with you just for the sake of doing it (not needing some expensive toy or $20/lb meat treats). That is why I like them so much, they seem to place value on the relationship, not just the lure/reward. My dogs will not perform for anyone the way they perform with me.

I think what many people mistake for being "stubborn" is a dog that is showing avoidance because it is confused. That's a problem with the owner and the training, not the dog. Like for example, the dog is sitting in heel and looking away from the owner because the owner is shouting a command at it, yanking on the leash. The dog is not being stubborn, he just doesn't understand the command yet and is trying to diffuse the situation by looking away.


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## pache11 (Dec 20, 2010)

Are our dogs really "stubborn", or are we mistaking their non-compliance? 

When we have a dog that isn't "stubborn" are we really saying that our dog is reliant on us and looks to us to fill its needs and is working to understand what we want it to fulfill. When our dogs don’t meet our expectations we often label them with words that best fit our understanding. Sometimes it is a lack of experience that leaves us with a bit of ignorance or a transfer of emotion to a situation we don’t understand. Most of our dogs are very dependent on their owners and are very eager to please. When an animal or human expresses a fierce independence, most people label that as “stubborn” or “unruly”. All our dogs will test us at times to see what they can get away with, and I for one am happy that they do so. It means they are independent enough to think for themselves and have active problem solving techniques. The more independent dogs are often harder to train and require more experience, but with the proper training become a more fulfilling companion in the long run. Cats are often more independent then dogs and people often speak of a good cat as one that acts more like a dog. I have seen a few cats that have been expertly trained and they are amazing. I also own a 21yr old cockatiel (Kugel) that is very different to train then my shepherds. He has helped me to change my training methods a great deal because a bird can’t be corrected in the same manner as our dogs and respond better to more positive training methods. It required me to become more flexible in my methods and try things I had never before experienced. I have worked with training cats and a few other animals and found out how much better I can now work with my dogs. Often with myself, I found out it was really “I” that was “stubborn” and sticking with methods that weren’t producing results rather than trying something that might work. When I watch other trainers and see how they can work around some of the difficulties I face and am humble enough to ask polite questions. I become a better trainer and many of my animals “stubbornness” goes away. 

Also I find I am at my most stubborn when I am getting what I expect, tired, or extremely excited. Our dogs often have clearer expectations of what they expect and will react to what they expect in conflict to what we expect. Misplaced timing when training often causes our dogs to misunderstand the nuances of what we are trying to teach and often reinforce behaviors we don’t expect or understand. Take a few friends and try marker training on them for a awhile and see how funny and difficult that can be without allowing speech. When I am tired, hurt, or depressed I am often at my worst. My wife will complain that I am being difficult, so I try to tell her when I am not at my best. Or dogs don’t have that option. We need to understand that sometimes our dogs feel overworked, stressed, tired and sick. We have to read them to understand what may be making them feel “stubborn”. My shepherd pulled a muscle in her rear leg that made her not want to work obedience for a few weeks. It took me a couple of days to be observant enough to see that she was in pain. Then I learned about impulse control in my own life and how my actions were often controlled my unrestrained emotions. I learned to help myself and my dogs better react to situations by better controlling our impulses. I work to understand and moderate the emotions so we can face more difficult situations easier.

So in my personal experience I have found that “stubbornness” is usually a misunderstanding of my dogs and me, and it requires a different set of eyes or methods. I will call a friend when I have a problem and it can very humbling when in a few moments they can solve something I have been working weeks or months to solve.


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## beaderdog (Dec 23, 2010)

> As a dog trainer who spends most of her time training the owners, I feel it is important that people clearly understand that dogs are not stubborn. That kind of thinking leads to the handler taking what the dog does personal. When you allow yourself to think that way, your ability to understand and train the dog, suffers and things get very difficult for the dog. The number one rule in dog training is to look at yourself first and make adjustments there. I can assure you, 99.9 % of the time, it is the person causing confusion and never the dog being stubborn.


That is so well-said! I've had beagles all my life & people so often say that stubbornness is a beagle characteristic. I haven't found that to be the case at all. What my 8 beagles have taught me is that the most important thing to do when training dogs is to figure out what motivates each dog individually, because it's been different for each one. It's up to me as the trainer to get to know my dog well enough to learn what works best for that individual dog - and that's true regardless of breed. I think "stubborn" best describes a human who expects to get the same results from the same motivator from every dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

pache11 said:


> Take a few friends and try marker training on them for a awhile and see how funny and difficult that can be without allowing speech. When I am tired, hurt, or depressed I am often at my worst. My wife will complain that I am being difficult, so I try to tell her when I am not at my best. Or dogs don’t have that option. We need to understand that sometimes our dogs feel overworked, stressed, tired and sick. We have to read them to understand what may be making them feel “stubborn”.


I always start with this when I have to teach new folks obedience training. I've done it several times with a small workshops I've done in college, for my SAR team and for families to pet obedience. The most valuable thing you get of people doing marker training with other people is to ask "_the dog_" to tell how he feels when he doesn't understand something or when he feels he is getting somewhere. The frustration, the hopeless, the happiness, the rewarding feeling of only understand after being stucked, etc.

I learned a lot from a mistake that I did once. I trained a lab mix that was a brewery and restaurant mascot in basic obedience and the owner wanted that not only she, but everyone at the restaurant could know the commands and handle the dog. There where about 15 persons between caretakers, administration assistants, waitress, cookers, etc. and I thought it would be fun for everyone involved to start playing with the clicker. And it was fun until I made the mistake of over-estimate the nature of humans and forgot that we are animals after all: It was the turn of the gardener to be "_the dog_", so we asked him to leave the room and designed an exercise. I proposed for the trainer to make him take a jacket that was on a chair and put it over the table, everyone agreed. We let "the dog" in and the play started. Minutes and minutes passed and the trainer could just not make "the dog" to grab the jacket, he would come near, touch it, put his hands over it, sit in the chair, whatever, but this "stubborn dog" would not get the jacket if his life depended on it. Until I understood how big was MY fail, me as the designer of the exercise, not the dog, not the trainer... The jacket belonged to the owner of the business and the gardener, being the "omega" of the group would not dare to take and move what was a property of the "Alpha". It was not a conscious thing even for "the dog" himself until I explained everyone why the exercise failed. Our dog was not being dumb nor stubborn, he was doing what was _the right thing to do_ because, after all, humans are pack animals and we follow codes that are deep ingrained in our genes. I should have known better.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Pache11, that is a very insightful posts for people to read,IMO!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Just curious is how biddable and easy to train a dog gentic? Like some dogs will go really good with a novice owner they are easy to train and biddable. While some dogs will need a more experienced owner because training for them might be a little more complex?

That is why a lot of working dogs may be high energy or high drive but they make great family pets and even the kids can train them. 

This only comes from hearing people who have had a gsds during their life and then all of a sudden they get a new one and have a lot of trouble training their dog when they were able to train all their other gsds in the past. I was always a bit confused about this. 

I met a women recently who had aussie shepherds all her life and then got this one aussie shepherd and she was very upset because she wasnt able to control or train her new dog and she was so lost because she had aussie sheps her whole life and now felt like she knew nothing.

i always thought that was up to the person to find a reputable breeder that will set them up with a dog based on their experience level.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Emoore said:


> Stubbornness = intelligence the human doesn't know how to deal with. (I've learned a lot about this one )


I go with this one. Some dogs get so bored with obedience training that they just say, that's enough, and stop working.


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

Thanks everyone for your replies so far.

In the OP I was referring in general sense and a little bit about my dog.

PaddyD wrote:



> If you are referring to a particular dog, how old is it?


Five years old, but she is still very puppyish in many ways.

Vandal wrote:


> It could be you are not offering enough praise or praise that appeals to her. Most of the people I work with are a bit too introverted and only offer praise that is more "restrained". Dogs like enthusiasm and genuine praise, not simply a "good girl" without the handler's heart attached to it.


I *think* I am familiar with what you are talking about here. If my dogs are doing something right in training and praise is something they like, I don't care about looking silly and letting them really know I'm happy about it- but Abby does not seem to care as much. Ever since she was a puppy it has been very difficult to get her enthused by praise unless a toy becomes involved or if I do manage it -to maintain it without her getting bored/flat. She's the sort of dog that will greet you when you come home for a good rub and then that's it !! she needs personal space LOL. She follows me everywhere just doesn't want to be touched. So I'm just saying she's never been the kind of dog that's as engaging with people ( I'm meaning just her family ). 

Doesn't rule out handler error I know, maybe I haven't found her right level or maybe she just isn't that type of dog.


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

pache11,

Thanks for the thinking post.


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