# Running Contacts for GSD's



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Any one doing this?

I started Havoc in agility training and we were getting ready to trial except contacts were a bit rough and needed more work. 

Then we got moved from OR to OK and 2 months later I deployed so we have done nothing for 9 months.

So I am about ready to come home from Iraq and want to get back into training before he gets too old! :help:

Contacts....... 2o2o is hard for Havoc. We have worked a lot on them but he is so fast he has a hard time controlling the descent to hit the 2o2o.

I have actually been thinking about running contacts but I had been told not a good idea for a large dog as it is likely the larger dogs will start to bail off and miss the contact totally.

Hubby has been sending Clean Run and I read an article last month about contacts and a comment made by the author got me thinking about running contacts again. It is very hard on the dogs structure to do 2o2o or 4 on the floor and with the long back of the GSD I am really thinking about retraining contacts and going for a running contact. I think it will be less frustrating for Havoc and he may be less inclined to nip at me at the contact obstacles. :shocked:


Comments? Ideas?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have always done running contacts with my dogs(not that I'm running much lately LOL),,I like them for the very reason you state. 

Am short on time but will come back to this later)) Glad your getting clean run, lots of good ideas,,

Just wanted to say, I find dogs tend to "bail" when we as handlers, are not standing up "straight", are leaning forward, I found after teaching running contacts, to stand more erect and actually lean back some, transmitted to the dog ) make sense? LOL

be back later


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yup, makes perfect sense! 

I liked 2o2o to try to slow Havoc down but all it does is frustrate him and cause him to slide sideways trying to hit the contact. He was showing some improvement as he got better at understanding his rear end could work with his front end but I just think running would be easier for him.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't know. I see too many dogs start leaping off the obstacle and missing the contacts when they aren't taught to stop. Also, at least for me, having them stop gives me the chance to get where I need to go and be able to do a front cross if needed.

I do a lot of 2o2o everywhere I go with my dog. I make him bottom on the curb, the stairs, getting out of my car, and at the bottom of my ramp. I quit using food to reinforce them and moved to his all important ball as a reward and it works great. I figure the more I practice it, the better the chance that he will at least slow down enough in the trial to hit the contacts.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Did you read the contact article in Clean Run about a month ago? Had some interesting info about the stress on dogs joints, spine and hips when doing 2o2o. 

I prefer 2o2o for the reasons you mention but I wonder if it is best and wonder if it is actually ramping Havoc up.


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## mygsds (Jan 7, 2007)

I like 2o2o as it gives me a chance to catch up to Kahlua but I also am concerned about the stress on the a frame. I will keep a 2o2o on the dogwalk and teeter but I am only having her hesitate now on the aframe and eventually will do a running contact.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also agree with the posters doing 2o2o and why it's convenient.

I taught all my dogs to both do running contacts (concentrating on the aframe more than the dogwalk/seesaw as well as when I say WAIT they better WAIT))) I think it's a good tool to have teaching both, cause ya never know what can happen on an agility field.

The reason for the running contact on the aframe, is just what kathy said, that's alot of pounding on pushing on joints in my opinion, on a big dog especially. I think that aframe can screw up a dog structurally more so, than jumping 10 jumps.

I taught running contacts on an aframe by using the hoops, and having a target atleast the dogs 'length' from the bottom of the aframe. Up over, down, to target. I used a couple of hoops and gradually removed them . If I want them to "WAIT", they can "WAIT" after they hit the ground. 

WHile I did work the running contacts on the seesaw and dogwalk, I also taught a 'wait', at the bottom of those just for the reason stated above, I may need to collect myself, I may have fallen on my butt, )) whatever the reason.. I like having the option of BOTH, and able to use it when I want/need to. 

As I said in my first post, your body language can work for you or against you when it comes to bailing those contacts as well))


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Elaine said:


> I don't know. I see too many dogs start leaping off the obstacle and missing the contacts when they aren't taught to stop. Also, at least for me, having them stop gives me the chance to get where I need to go and be able to do a front cross if needed.
> 
> I do a lot of 2o2o everywhere I go with my dog. I make him bottom on the curb, the stairs, getting out of my car, and at the bottom of my ramp. I quit using food to reinforce them and moved to his all important ball as a reward and it works great. I figure the more I practice it, the better the chance that he will at least slow down enough in the trial to hit the contacts.


Since I do the vast majority of 'teaching' the contacts with it lowered or just on the contact area, there's little stress on my dogs.

And once I have taught the contact, my dog knows to lean back as they descend to alot of the weight is shifted to the rear and off the front end. Since I then only do aframes a few times a week in class, and once (maybe twice) a day at a trial, I feel a fit and lean GSD should EASILY be able to absorb that stress with their body. 

Heck, when I see the jumping and turning my dogs do when chasing a ball/stick/squirrel and compare it to the amount of times I ask an aframe..... I think the aframe is just a teeny part of my dogs exercise regime.

If we teach the 2on/2off well, they learn to lean back. We also can develop a quick release so they hardly seem to stop. And I feel it's ABSOLUTELY clear to dog and handler what we are looking for. The people I know with good running contacts have equipment at home and train ALL THE TIME on it. I do NOT have an aframe, and even when I did, didn't train enough at home to really do the running contacts properly....

So I am completely comfortable with the 2on/2off and will continue to train it. 

Not that there is anything wrong with a running contact, those few people I know who DO use it do well. But they are also usually people with smaller dogs, less drivey dogs, or people that really have the opportunity to train WAY more than I do.

If you want to see how you can train a 2on/2off to be fast watch these runs………….are these running contacts?





 
Now watch these runs and how the SAME trainer with the SAME dogs instantly went into ‘training mode’ once a bar was knocked. So started proofing the contacts. Can you see a targeting/nose touch behavior? This is the SAME dog as in the previous video ( and watch her play with the proofing at the weavepoles, that’s CRAZY!):


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

When I get back I do plan on coantactng a trainer in Tulsa that I was going to start going to before I deployed. She is known for being pretty progressive so I will talk to her about 2o2o and running contacts. Havoc will slow and WAIT! but he slides off the contact. I think what I want is the slow down to insure he gets the contact but without the stop.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

MRL we posted at the same time. I can't see the vidoes over here in Iraq at all. Can't see them at work and my connection in my quarters is so slow trhey won't download.

I think the picture in my head is what you describe to a point. I want the dog to slow but pause but not stop. 

Actually the article I mention talked about the lean back on the 2o2o as well and stated it did put a fair amount of strain on the dogs back and hips.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> When I get back I do plan on coantactng a trainer in Tulsa that I was going to start going to before I deployed. She is known for being pretty progressive so I will talk to her about 2o2o and running contacts. Havoc will slow and WAIT! but he slides off the contact. I think what I want is the slow down to insure he gets the contact but without the stop.


Running contacts are really running............. and amazing to see on the dogs that 'get it'. 

To teach a 2on/2off, so our dog's KNOW it, they have to KNOW with they are going up that they WILL be stopping at the bottom to check in with the handler about IF they are going on and WHERE they are going to. That stop may be brief. It may be long. But there WILL be a stop. 

If the dogs KNOW that (really know it 100% of the time, not just in training but NEVER at a trial  ) then you can start having fast releases. And the thing is you shouldn't have to babysit the down side of any contact with a 'wait' or 'slow' or 'stay' or 'whatever'. Because if the dog KNOWS their job you should either not have to say anything or just your word for the end (target? spot?) that you ONLY say once and not as a nag (and a prayer  ) but as a command your dog knows.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Those videos were amazing! I can't believe how she can send her dogs to the weaves from such a distance and then she heads off across the course and the dogs finishes the weaves on their own and then hit all the jumps on the way back to her. Cool!

If your dog is sliding off the contacts, it sounds like you need to reinforce them more so he can plan how to stop better. Once he learns to stop, you can teach him that the second he stops he will be rewarded with a release to the next jump. This part speeds up the stop and they quit slowing down too far in advance wasting time.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> If your dog is sliding off the contacts, it sounds like you need to reinforce them more so he can plan how to stop better. Once he learns to stop, you can teach him that the second he stops he will be rewarded with a release to the next jump. This part speeds up the stop and they quit slowing down too far in advance wasting time.


Great point...the slowing and creeping and us having to babysit (beg?) as our dogs come on down is when our dog's aren't clear on their task.


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