# RAW DIET - Possibly too much protein?



## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Hi guys;

I have noticed my 6 month old shepherd limping after being in his kennel for long duration. Is it possible that his new diet (RAW) is providing too much protein?

We get a beef and bison medley that contains bone, muscle meat, and a small amount of organs. We also get chicken backs. Typically I feed approximately 0.6 lbs of the red medley, as well as 1 chicken back (0.5 lbs), twice a day.

Hence, in a 24 hour span, our boy gets approximately 1 pound of chicken backs, and 1.25 lbs of red meat medley.

Thank you for your advice.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

You know it's odd you bring this up, because I thought I noticed my youngest walking a little off--almost a limp too. I feed raw and right now they are eating chicken, turkey and beef mixed. Good balance on the bone. I'm just now getting back to organs after a couple weeks off, because a couple others dnot always tolerate the organs well. 

He has good muscle tone and is on the thin size. I would be interested in seeing if protein can cause any issues. I would think it could be calcium from the bone?


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

The bone content is great; his stools are as they should be on RAW. I just wasn't sure if I was fediing correct portions.

I also typically have a raw egg once per day, 1 teaspoon of goat milk and a small amount of cooked vegetables for some vitamins. I just noticed the limp today and we have been on raw for 2 weeks now. 

He is going to be a big boy so I thought perhaps it was growing pains, or he may have even been rough housing with our Alaskan Malamute (another big brute).


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

dranseth said:


> The bone content is great; his stools are as they should be on RAW. I just wasn't sure if I was fediing correct portions.
> 
> I also typically have a raw egg once per day, 1 teaspoon of goat milk and a small amount of cooked vegetables for some vitamins. I just noticed the limp today and we have been on raw for 2 weeks now.
> 
> He is going to be a big boy so I thought perhaps it was growing pains, or he may have even been rough housing with our Alaskan Malamute (another big brute).


Pano might be possible. I think I seen another thread about preventing pano--I didn't read that yet. 

I think mine is past the stage where pano is possible--I have to check that. Today he seemed fine.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Can you link me to that thread? Please and thank you.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Totally found it!!!!! That may just be what I am after. He has a very large frame for a sheperd. His sire was 130 lbs lean.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My plan is to feed kibble to the next pup until skeletal growth is complete. I have had too many issues with growth in males. They were all on raw. Now I feed kibble in the morning and raw at night. Even though I watched all the percentages of bone/muscle meat/organs petty closely, I still wonder what is missing as they don't get the guts, eyes, brains etc of prey animals, nor do they get lean times on just bones like wild pups go through. I read somewhere that wild pups are skinny as they are left with the scraps, hence our pups get too rich of a raw diet. Interesting thought.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

That actually makes perfect sense, to be honest....


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

When I say our boy is big-framed, I am not kidding!!!!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> My plan is to feed kibble to the next pup until skeletal growth is complete. I have had too many issues with growth in males. They were all on raw. Now I feed kibble in the morning and raw at night. Even though I watched all the percentages of bone/muscle meat/organs petty closely, I still wonder what is missing as they don't get the guts, eyes, brains etc of prey animals, nor do they get lean times on just bones like wild pups go through. I read somewhere that wild pups are skinny as they are left with the scraps, hence our pups get too rich of a raw diet. Interesting thought.


I'm hesitant to feed a puppy raw too. I didn't switch to raw until Apollo was just over a year, I waited for that specifically. He is a well muscled dog, but on the thinner side. Strong as can be too. I do get them whole prey ground, which includes the whole animal. I'm just not sure that I believe its balanced or how they can determine that if it's let's say a pig. How do they know what ratio is in a 2 pound container? It might be true, but I'm hesitant. I prefer to bslance it myself, but I find that none of mine can handle what the daily dose of liver should be. Liver and kidney serm to be to rich for them, a constant struggle. They are fine with spleen, pancreas, etc.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

dranseth said:


> Hi guys; We get a *beef and bison medley that contains bone, muscle meat, and a small amount of organs.* We also get chicken backs. Typically I feed approximately 0.6 lbs of the red medley, as well as 1 chicken back (0.5 lbs), twice a day.
> 
> *Hence, in a 24 hour span, our boy gets approximately 1 pound of chicken backs, and 1.25 lbs of red meat medley.*



What brand is the Beef & Bison Medley? Does the package say "complete & balanced diet for all life stages"? 

If this food contains "bone" and it's a "complete & balanced diet", I am curious as to why are you feeding MORE bones (chicken backs)? 

At 1 pound of bones daily plus the bone in the medley, I think you are feeding too much bone. High amounts of calcium/phosphorus should not be fed to a pup.

According to the book "Real Food For Healthy Dogs & Cats", 
Example: Chicken Leg quarters with skin & bone has 5.40g of calcium and 3.13g of Phosphorus per pound.

"Excess calcium can also interfere with normal healthy bone mineralization and growth, especially in young (under 1 year old) large and giant breed dogs. Large breeds fed excess calcium are more likely to suffer from developmental bone disease such as osteochondrosis (abnormal bone growth)." DNM


Moms


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Moms, is the author Dr. Becker?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Moms, is the author Dr. Becker?



Yes: "Real Food For Healthy Dogs & Cats" (fourth edition) By Beth Taylor and Karen Shaw Becker, DVM

https://www.amazon.com/Beckers-Real...&keywords=real+food+for+healthy+dogs+and+cats

OR

On Mercola's site it is cheaper: Dr. Becker's Real Food for Dogs & Cats Cookbook - Mercola eCommerce 

Moms


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Yes: "Real Food For Healthy Dogs & Cats" (fourth edition) By Beth Taylor and Karen Shaw Becker, DVM
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Beckers-Real...&keywords=real+food+for+healthy+dogs+and+cats
> 
> ...


One more question: is this for a cooked or raw diet?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Momto2GSDs said:


> What brand is the Beef & Bison Medley? Does the package say "complete & balanced diet for all life stages"?
> 
> If this food contains "bone" and it's a "complete & balanced diet", I am curious as to why are you feeding MORE bones (chicken backs)?
> 
> ...


This is what I was getting at. For instance I get the whole prey ground chicken from My Pet a Carnivore. It states that it's 80-10-10, but I can't see how that can be true in a 2 pound container? I can see it in the 5 pound contained because of the weight of a chicken. Does that make sense?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> One more question: is this for a cooked or raw diet?


The book says that you can cook the meat.

Ground meat is used in this diet. You can grind it yourself to save $$ or purchase it from your local grocery store. Meat for this particular diet should be 93% lean.

This diet includes: 
organs being added
ground vegetables/fruit being added
eggs and sardines added
a vitamin supplement you make yourself
bone meal (since there is not bone in the meat)

Both my dogs were started on raw food when they were 3 weeks old. When I got them at 7/8 weeks old, I put them on this diet. They are now 8 & 10 years old and very healthy, never an instance of pano on either pup/dog and they come from different lines.

Moms


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

llombardo said:


> This is what I was getting at. For instance I get the whole prey ground chicken from My Pet a Carnivore. It states that it's 80-10-10, but I can't see how that can be true in a 2 pound container? I can see it in the 5 pound contained because of the weight of a chicken. Does that make sense?


If they are grinding and then mixing those ratios in large vats, and then putting it into 2#containers, wouldn't the *ratio* of bone (and organs) 
to muscle meat be correct? 

Moms


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Momto2GSDs said:


> If they are grinding and then mixing those ratios in large vats, and then putting it into 2#containers, wouldn't the *ratio* of bone (and organs)
> to muscle meat be correct?
> 
> Moms


That's where I'm not sure. Do they do that or do they grind up one chicken at a time and package and go? I think I'm going go call and ask. If they do one bird at a tine(which would be the easiest) and a bird weighs 5 pounds, someone is getting the top half and someone else is getting the bottom half, which doesn't supply the whole bird of correct ratio in one container.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

llombardo said:


> That's where I'm not sure. Do they do that or do they grind up one chicken at a time and package and go? I think I'm going go call and ask. If they do one bird at a tine(which would be the easiest) and a bird weighs 5 pounds, someone is getting the top half and someone else is getting the bottom half, which doesn't supply the whole bird of correct ratio in one container.



I don't know if a company can do one bird at a time cost effectively, but it would be great to find out when you call them! 

Moms


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Both my dogs were started on raw food when they were 3 weeks old. When I got them at 7/8 weeks old, I put them on this diet. They are now 8 & 10 years old and very healthy, never an instance of pano on either pup/dog and they come from different lines.
> 
> Moms


Interesting. My pup and 3 others in the litter all very trim pups on completely different puppy foods in different parts of the country, had Pano.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

gsdluvr said:


> Interesting. My pup and 3 others in the litter all very trim pups on completely different puppy foods in different parts of the country, had Pano.


I believe that every dog, even from the same litter, has a "different" system, just like we do, and you just don't know what is going to throw it off.....food, vaccinations, flea/tick products, drugs, environment, even genetics, etc.

For instance, give my husband a pain killing drug and it will put him to sleep.....but give me half a tablet of the same drug and I could vacuum the walls and ceilings of my whole house inside a half an hour! LOL :crazy:

Moms


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm curious. Wouldn't 93/7 meat be an awfully low in fat diet?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Galathiel said:


> I'm curious. Wouldn't 93/7 meat be an awfully low in fat diet?


Fat has twice as many calories as protein which can create a higher caloric intake.
Example: 
Approximates:
2 Cups (1 pound) of raw ground 80% lean beef = 1129 Calories
2 Cups (1 pound) of raw ground 95% lean beef = 579 Calories
So you wouldn't want to feed an overweight dog the 80%/20% beef, but an active working dog could do just fine on the 80/20.

The ratio's I mentioned are specific to *THIS* diet, because we are adding additional means of fats. 
Example of how other fats are added to diet (per Dog's Naturally Magazine):
For every 1 to 1¼ pounds of 90% to 93% lean ruminant meats, add:
1 tsp of hempseed or walnut oil
OR
2 tsp of ground hempseeds
AND
¼ of a 3.75 oz can of sardines in water or olive oil 





Hope that helps,

Moms


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## gsdhistorian4 (Nov 30, 2016)

The general rule of thumb i always followed in raw feeding is 2%-3% of food weight per dogs bodyweight a day for their meal. So to make it simple, if you are doing 2%.. that would mean 1lb of food for a 50lb dog, and 2lbs for a 100lb dog. However, that may need to be adjusted depending on the dogs age, activity level, etc.. an active dog may need more. Also.. different subject, but always remember it's extremely important to not let a dog exercise till at least 2 hours after they eat as this can risk bloat which is deadly. Hope that helps


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Hey. So this medley is 20% beef and bison with 80% chicken with bone in ground up; there is also a small amount of organ meat. I was told to feed my puppy 2% of his projected adult weight, which is 2lbs. They told me I can reduce the medley and feed chicken backs. So I am approximately 1.2 lbs of the medley and 0.8 lbs of chicken backs. We also include a raw egg, and a teaspoon of goat milk, as well as some cooked veggies. 

Looking for advice as I am new to feeding raw.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

What is the name of the company making this medley?

Does the package say "complete & balanced diet" according to AAFCO for all life stages?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

dranseth said:


> . They told me I can reduce the medley and feed chicken backs. So I am approximately 1.2 lbs of the medley and 0.8 lbs of chicken backs.


Hi dranseth,
I’m concerned about your pup.
Please don't think I'm criticizing you (I *do not* think that "they" have given you good advice), and I think your puppy is beginning to have side effects from it (limp). You have asked for suggestions, and these are mine.

You MUST be very careful to feed a balanced diet to a pup to avoid possible permanent damage. I would seriously consider going back to feeding a balanced kibble to your growing puppy, until he is older and you have time to really research feeding raw. 

Many holistic vets will tell you that if you do not feed a raw diet correctly it is better to keep them on a high quality kibble that contains the correct vitamins and minerals.

Dane Lady: "Nutrition is one of the single most important factors affecting development of the musculoskeletal system, and energy, protein, and calcium are some of the more critical nutritional components affecting skeletal development. *When given in excess, they can be detrimental to normal skeletal growth.*"

Ian Billinghurst: “It only takes a small excess of calcium *to disrupt the normal growth process of a puppy’s bones.*”!
According to Ian Billinghurst's book, excess calcium can cause bone problems, make other nutrients unavailable, interferes with hormones, and can have an adverse effect on thyroid function.


The following are high quality kibbles are fed by many people on this blog.
*
Fromm's Gold Large Breed Puppy*: https://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/#large-breed-puppy-gold 

Calcium = 1.01 Phosphorus = 0.95

1st 10 ingredients: Duck, Chicken Meal, Chicken, Oatmeal, Pearled Barley, Brown Rice, Menhaden Fish Meal, Lamb, Potatoes,

*
Fromm's Heartland Gold Large Breed Puppy*: https://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/#heartland-gold-large-breed-puppy 

Calcium = 1.05 Phosphorus = 0.99

1st 10 ingredients: Beef, Pork Meat Meal, Peas, Lentils, Chickpeas, Potatoes, Dried Tomato Pomace, Dried Whole Egg, Pork Liver,


I hope this helps and that your pup is ok.
Moms


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## Propsandmayhem (Dec 2, 2016)

Momto2GSDs said:


> What is the name of the company making this medley?
> 
> Does the package say "complete & balanced diet" according to AAFCO for all life stages?


It isn't made by a company, it is purchased by someone who prepares it. If they are still getting it from the same person as their breeder, the breeders are very open to connecting people to this person as a food supply.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

I was advised that the medley was approximately 10% bone content. They have been doing this for 20 years and have copious experience with Great Danes. They told me that he is likely experiencing growing pains. 

Moreover, from my research, I've also encountered numerous cases of dogs experiencing growing pains even when on a balanced kibble diet. Sometimes it just happens regardless?

Also, when I say chicken backs, please note that these are not fully grown chickens; they are not fully matured so their bones are soft at that stage and the bone content is substantially less than a fully matured chicken.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

I'm not looking to revert to kibble; my whole reason of switching to raw was to provide a better life to my puppy.

I just want advice regarding my current feeding methodology and how I should be adjusting it to accommodate my puppy to be safe. I am new to raw and learning, but that should not be a reason to just drop it and fold.

We have only been on this diet for two weeks, I just want some pointers on how I should adjust it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

To be honest: I never had any growth problems with pups in the 40 years of having dogs. But I have had only growth problems by feeding completely raw to pups, even though I copied my breeder's directions. It could have been two flukes in a row but it has been enough for me. From now on I will only feed a good quality kibble to a new pup until skeletal growth is complete. Deja gets kibble in the morning and raw in most evenings. Sometimes kibble twice a day, depending on circumstances. She was raised by the breeder on raw until I got her at 9 months and she has been healthy. But to me raw is no longer the gospel as we cannot possibly imitate their whole prey diet, at least not with my options. I cannot offer heads, brains, dirty guts, udder etc.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

As I move along with raw here, I do notice that the percentage of bone and organ is different with the dogs. Some of mine require more bone, some require less and the same with organs, for the most part organs have caused the most upset. Sometimes I take it out of the diet for a week and then back in for as long as I can before someone gets icky poop. Kidney seems to be a bigger issue then liver and beef causes the most problems. So I try to get goat, Chicken or turkey liver. I can sometimes get away without issues if I just do less. I'm taking a couple in for blood work to self how they are doing--mist likely my oldest and the youngest. So over a year later I'm still trying to perfect it.


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