# "Aggression"



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Has this become a "bad" word? I keep reading people saying that GSDs are not or should not be "aggressive". What is wrong with a clear-headed dog with a proper threshold that has strong active aggression? I thought this was part of the breed.


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## Girth (Jan 27, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Has this become a "bad" word? I keep reading people saying that GSDs are not or should not be "aggressive". What is wrong with a clear-headed dog with a proper threshold that has strong active aggression? I thought this was part of the breed.


 

I think a better term might be "vicious" I don't mind an aggressive dog but one that is vicious is different. Maybe there is a fine line between those two concepts.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am confused by this question, but then again I am easily confused.

I am merely a pet owner, not a trainer, not a competitor.

I dont think GSD's should have toy/food/people aggression. I wouldn't want a dog like that.

Now if you mean a dog that is aggressive while doing SchH, as in he/she has alot of drive, comes out very strong and excels at the sport then I think aggression is great.

Just for the record I know nothing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Perhaps there's a basic misunderstanding of the word. Compounding that may be the distinction between "a clear-headed dog with a proper threshold that has strong active aggression", and dogs with weak nerve exhibiting inappropriate aggression - too few of the former and too many of the latter?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Perhaps there's a basic misunderstanding of the word. Compounding that may be the distinction between "a clear-headed dog with a proper threshold that has strong active aggression", and dogs with weak nerve exhibiting inappropriate aggression - too few of the former and too many of the latter?


That really seems to be it, I think.

It is kind of like hearing the term "compulsion" and many of us get a very ugly picture in our mind. Not a picture based on the actual definition.

IMO, a German Shepherd without aggression is like a Labrador who can't swim.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think the aggression you describe is great, but without that high threshold and clear head you have a hot mess,lol My hot mess is laying next to me


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gagsd said:


> IMO, a German Shepherd without aggression is like a Labrador who can't swim.


Yeah, that's kind of how I feel. 

IMO we should not speak about our breed based on the worst case scenario (ex. a fear reactive biter), but how the breed REALLY should be, and I don't see why a GSD would *not* possess aggression?....


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Would the difference be aggression that can be controlled?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't know, I mean it seems like now we're not just talking about aggression but all these other factors, breed traits, drives, thresholds. I just think at the most basic level, the GSD breed *should* possess aggression. I don't know that I'd want to "control" the aggression because it would come out when it's warranted and I'd probably be grateful for it!


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> IMO we should not speak about our breed based on the worst case scenario (ex. a fear reactive biter), but how the breed REALLY should be, and I don't see why a GSD would *not* possess aggression?....


I agree, but, as usuall, its important to consider the audience. In a controlled setting of a GSD Forum, sure, the term has a unique meaning, and even here it is often misused/misunderstood. Now consider, the general public...hearing 'GSD has aggression' probably invokes images of a snarling dog jumping the fence and trying to eat their children.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I don't know that I'd want to "control" the aggression because it would come out when it's warranted and I'd probably be grateful for it!


 
That was pretty much what I meant. For a handler to be able to control the dog's aggression be it at home, or in the competition field.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

So we breed dogs and compare them to the standard based on JQP, the least common denominator? Then what *is* the GSD?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

To me, the aggression that is desired in a GSD is a little like the aggression in a boxer or mixed martial artist. You can usually tell a fighter because he/she is the calmest person in the room. When everybody else is getting drunk and starting fights, the boxer/mma fighter is trying to diffuse the situation. They don't go around picking on people or starting stuff, and they'll usually let you push them pretty far before they feel the need to do anything. But once the fighter steps into the ring/cage/octagon (Schutzhund field) or his/her family or safety is threatened, watch out. They take care of business with brutal efficiency.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> To me, the aggression that is desired in a GSD is a little like the aggression in a boxer or mixed martial artist. You can usually tell a fighter because he/she is the calmest person in the room. When everybody else is getting drunk and starting fights, the boxer/mma fighter is trying to diffuse the situation. They don't go around picking on people or starting stuff, and they'll usually let you push them pretty far before they feel the need to do anything. But once the fighter steps into the ring/cage/octagon (Schutzhund field) or his/her family or safety is threatened, watch out. They take care of business with brutal efficiency.


I just watched something like this on tv the other day. This rowdy, young, drunk guy came up to an older gentleman and started swearing and getting in his face. The young guy pushed him a couple of times and the older gentleman just stood there calmly and quietly, taking alot of crap, others would have fought back right away but he was very patient. After a while it became ridiculous and then, WHAM! The older gentleman knocked the day lights out of the young whipper snapper. The punk was completely shocked and literally crawled away, clearly surprised and defeated. 

It was awesome! I never laughed so hard. :rofl:


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I kinda think the term "aggressive" or "aggression" is over used by the wrong people.

JMO.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

"Aggressive" and "Civil" are the two most misunderstood and often confused terms when used in describing a German shepherd. Aggressiveness in a German shepherd is fine _when it is used in the right situation_s. "Civil", on the other hand, is bass ackwards. Thor being civil doesn't mean you can take him to the church picnic ...


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

:laugh:
Sorry, just had a mental picture of that last statement.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Emoore said:


> To me, the aggression that is desired in a GSD is a little like the aggression in a boxer or mixed martial artist. You can usually tell a fighter because he/she is the calmest person in the room. When everybody else is getting drunk and starting fights, the boxer/mma fighter is trying to diffuse the situation. They don't go around picking on people or starting stuff, and they'll usually let you push them pretty far before they feel the need to do anything. But once the fighter steps into the ring/cage/octagon (Schutzhund field) or his/her family or safety is threatened, watch out. They take care of business with brutal efficiency.





Cassidy's Mom said:


> Perhaps there's a basic misunderstanding of the word. Compounding that may be the distinction between "a clear-headed dog with a proper threshold that has strong active aggression", and dogs with weak nerve exhibiting inappropriate aggression - too few of the former and too many of the latter?





gagsd said:


> That really seems to be it, I think.
> 
> It is kind of like hearing the term "compulsion" and many of us get a very ugly picture in our mind. Not a picture based on the actual definition.
> 
> IMO, a German Shepherd without aggression is like a Labrador who can't swim.



all these posts are great! this is exactly what the term should mean for German Shepherds. 

But unfortunately the general public doesn't understand this is what a GSD is and should be. They are ultimately the calmest one who only reacts in the real situations. They are supposed to be calm and confident and ready when it gets real and have the fight drive to stay in the fight until they finish it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I posted this in the breeding > breed standard section rather than general or chat. I'm not really interested in dumbing down for JQP. What about GSD owners/fanciers that claim the breed should not be aggressive? Is that historically correct?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

4TheDawgies said:


> But unfortunately the general public doesn't understand this is what a GSD is and should be. They are ultimately the calmest one who only reacts in the real situations. They are supposed to be calm and confident and ready when it gets real and have the fight drive to stay in the fight until they finish it.


It is not just the general public. MANY German Shepherd fanciers can't stand aggression. What is worse, many breeders can't.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Perhaps there's a basic misunderstanding of the word. Compounding that may be the distinction between *"a clear-headed dog with a proper threshold that has strong active aggression"*, and dogs with weak nerve exhibiting inappropriate aggression - too few of the former and too many of the latter?


This is what I want in my German Shepherd Dog and what I believe to be the proper description of the term in the breed standard.

Stark would be the weak nerve with inappropriate aggression (reacting to strangers) or as one member called it "a hot mess".


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I posted this in the breeding > breed standard section rather than general or chat. I'm not really interested in dumbing down for JQP. *What about GSD owners/fanciers that claim the breed should not be aggressive? Is that historically correct?*


No, I do not believe that the breed should *not* be aggressive - I don't think that is correct to the standard.

For those people wanting to water-down or "dumb-down" the breed, I say go and find another breed to live with.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I don't disagree with your point, but I live in a province which thinks "pit bull" is a breed. If the word "aggressive" were to be associated with the breed, it wouldn't go over too well. When you refer to a woman as being "aggressive", people think "motivated", "intelligent", "successful". If you refer to your dog as being "aggressive", that means it likes to eat babies


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

So how is aggression different from being protective? Do they go hand in hand?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> If you refer to your dog as being "aggressive", that means it likes to eat babies


And this is where education should come in. Instead of allowing others to dictate what our breed is, we should be showing them what our breed should be. We are so afraid of words and what JQP thinks. When I talk to non dog people most seem to understand what I am talking about when discussing the GSD as a breed and also SchH (I know, another topic) as it is meant to be. Our breed is supposed to have aggression.

The problem is the dogs that have fear based reactions to things (labeled aggression), the fear mongers in society that grasp onto words and ideas while lacking knowledge, and the GSD owners and breeders who really want a living stuffed animal that just happens to look like a GSD.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I think it's how the words are said... Aggression vs. aggressive.. 

My dog has aggression vs. my dog is aggressive..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> When you refer to a woman as being "aggressive", people think "motivated", "intelligent", "successful".


...and this is the case on which planet? It should read when you refer to a MAN as aggressive....when it is used to describe a woman, it is usually long hand for B*#ch. I know, off topic, but as someone in the business world who was described as aggressive , (meaning the later definition), I had to comment. 

As for the topic.....I think, before someone is allowed to own a GSD, they should have to submit to a "temperament test" themselves. Huge numbers of people are nervous, reactive and fearful while handling their GSD. If you think the dogs can't feel that , there is just one more reason you should not own one. If you want to be in control of the dog, you have to be in control of yourself. Even the most fearful dogs benefit, and change dramatically, when they are handled by the right person. 

People like the look of GSDs but fail to consider the rest of the package. Aggression, or protectivness, is a trait in the breed that has been there from the get go. The people trying to breed away from it are usually removing the traits that support the dog's ability to remain composed and think clearly more than being sucessful at ridding their line of aggression....and that's the problem.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Instead of allowing others to dictate what our breed is, we should be showing them what our breed should be. We are so afraid of words and what JQP thinks. When I talk to non dog people most seem to understand what I am talking about when discussing the GSD as a breed and also SchH (I know, another topic) as it is meant to be. Our breed is supposed to have aggression.


Exactly! If I talk to my parents - who are not dog people - about GSDs, Schutzhund training, the other types of training and protection scenarios we do...they are generally OK with it and start to "get" it. They don't really see the point of spending the time and money, but they understand how it works and they are fine with my dogs being around. But sometimes having a conversation with another GSD owner/breeder/fancier is ten times worse. I was once entered in a show (a conformation show) and one of the other exhibitors was trying to explain that her dogs were the true GSDs because they could "herd" (like move less than half a dozen sheep around a small arena), meanwhile one of the dogs was cowering in the ring, ears flattened and tail tucked under, also sounding off a lot when in the crate. And my dogs are the viscous unpredictable ones...


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

lhczth said:


> And this is where education should come in. Instead of allowing others to dictate what our breed is, we should be showing them what our breed should be. We are so afraid of words and what JQP thinks.


My job occasionally requires me to be the buffer between our computer programmers and a largely uneducated, but mainly *uninterested* group of users. I'm constantly telling the programmers to stop with their logic and common sense because it just won't work 
Most of society doesn't even care enough to educate themselves about things that effect them all day long, let alone about something they don't even have. You can't educate JQP into thinking a certain way, you have to manipulate their opinion. Unless you make it cheap, fast, easy and yummy, 80% won't buy it, believe it or eat it.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> People like the look of GSDs but fail to consider the rest of the package. Aggression, or protectivness, is a trait in the breed that has been there from the get go.


I think that's what most people fail to realize with the breed.. Aggression and or protectiveness are one of the traits.. I see the lack of understanding or knowledge when it comes to the pet type people what characteristics the GSD is supposed to have..


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

But if others can educate people to think one way, we can educate them to think the other way.  The problem is that many GSD people are too busy trying to find ways to placate people or cover up what makes a GSD a GSD. This just makes it look like we are trying to hide something or as if saying our breed should have aggression is bad.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I think that a big part of the issue is over use of the term and the fact that it is used in both the positive and negative, mostly negative. 

When you talk to JQP about what a GSD should be like, most will say things like, guard dog, protect the family, watch dog, prtective... Then they will pull out a story about someone's uncle's brother who had a GSD who saved their life or protected their child...


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Recently we did the "attack on the handler" followed by "re-greeting of the handler" exercise with Lies's dog Nikon. When I showed threat, the dog responded with strong aggression. When I walked over to Lies in a completely neutral manner and shook her hand, the dog showed alertness but did not bark, bite, lunge at me, or back away from me. I think that's how a GSD should behave.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jason L said:


> Recently we did the "attack on the handler" followed by "re-greeting of the handler" exercise with Lie's dog Nikon. When I showed threat, the dog responded with strong aggression. When I walked over to Lies in a completely neutral manner and shook her hand, the dog showed alertness but did not bark, bite, lunge at me, or back away from me. I think that's how a GSD should behave. When there is threat, the dog must respond with aggression and power.


That's my understanding as well. That is a perfect example on how a GSD should behave and react to situations like the ones you described.


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## Texas_Eva (Apr 10, 2011)

I'm actually currently learning more about this subject, at least learning more about aggression in GSD's and how its works along with drive.

Elements of Temperament (thanks who posted this for me on another thread!)

I just wanted to add I love and bought a GSD for this aggression, drive, loyalty, and willingness to please. If someone wants to ruin the breed standard and start watering-down the stock because of the stigma and misunderstanding of aggression they should invest in a Chihuahua.



gagsd said:


> IMO, a German Shepherd without aggression is like a Labrador who can't swim.


This has gotta be my new favorite quote!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jason L said:


> Recently we did the "attack on the handler" followed by "re-greeting of the handler" exercise with Lies's dog Nikon. When I showed threat, the dog responded with strong aggression. When I walked over to Lies in a completely neutral manner and shook her hand, the dog showed alertness but did not bark, bite, lunge at me, or back away from me. I think that's how a GSD should behave.


That is exactly how a GSD should behave in my opinion.

By the way - good boy Nikon!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOl Thanks Jason! That is one reason why I like those exercises. Maybe not the same level of flash and finesse of SchH but there is *always* a re-greeting at the end, and in trial the decoys will intentionally skirt the line with the dog in that exercise (they move in with purpose, stick their arm right in the dog's face, honestly when we did it in trial if someone had actually greeted me that way I would have felt that my personal space was being invaded!). I know my dog lacks the same level of commitment on long bites and escapes as really good dogs, but when someone is in his face or in my face he relishes that challenge and responds accordingly which is what matters to me. I personally feel that when it comes to aggression, defense, protectiveness, or whatever you want to label it, I might be looking for a higher threshold than some, but that is mainly a function of my lifestyle. I'd rather be safe than sorry. But, I still feel that these traits ARE part of the breed and should be there, and are NOT the same as a dog hackling at 90 year old grandma or sounding off at neighbor kids.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

What was funny was Nikon's reaction to me few days after the SECOND session. I think by then he was getting a little fed up with me. That was alertness with a little of "hate-ray" built in LOL.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Question....Your dog is standing or laying next to you and someone accidently steps on that dogs tail....should the dog yelp and draw closer to you or should the dog show aggression. (Hint: dog has no way of knowing it was an accident) Just curious.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Well I know what I'd do if someone 'stepped on my tail!'


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Question....Your dog is standing or laying next to you and someone accidently steps on that dogs tail....should the dog yelp and draw closer to you or should the dog show aggression. (Hint: dog has no way of knowing it was an accident) Just curious.


I think this is a very fasinating question. I can't wait to read your reasoning behind it. 

My thought is that he should NOT yelp and draw closer to me. He should have the confidence to deal with the situation himself. I would also not expect him to go immediately into an overly agressive response. 

I would expect my dog to jump up and look around to assess the situation. If he sees that there isn't anything out of the ordinary, then lay back down. If there is something out of the ordinary, then to react accordingly.

Added:
I say this because...
My weak nerved mix would have jumped up snarling and ready for a fight or at least barking, to me that is a demonstration of his weak nerve. Agression without cause is not good IMO.

On the other hand, Grizzly just got stepped on last night. He yipped cause it hurt, then and looked around to see who did it. When he realized it was a family member, he just trotted on his merry way and started playing again. I think that was an appropriate response. If it was something unfamilar, I would expect him to posture and investigate and if he felt treatened to bark.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

After thinking about this some more, I want to change my answer slightly. I say he should react with aggression. I think the LEVEL of aggression is what I was talking about in my last post. Standing effect, ears forward, a bark... Are displays of aggression and appropriate for that level of threat. 

Moose's level of aggression as described above, was not appropriate for the level of threat.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

with my girl, if someone did that to her, I would say, she'd jump up, most likely stand her ground and bark at the person who stepped on her.(she does a pretty good bark & hold Like "OUCH YOU FOOL You stepped on me!" She wouldn't be happy about it, she'd let them know it, but she wouldn't go in for the kill...(this is assuming the person who stepped on her was a stranger)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My dog's tail has been accidentally stepped on (and feet/toes many times). He just whirls around to see what is wrong with his tail, and by the time he turns to check, well whoever did the stepping is has kept on going. He doesn't yelp and cower or get up and pursue.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

The kind a response I'd like to see from cliff's scenario is a quick yelp (if it hurts, it hurts... Can't fault the dog for that) and a neutral response after that. 

No out of control barking and definitely no cowering. A neutral immediate response with a clear head to assess the situation.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> Question....Your dog is standing or laying next to you and someone accidently steps on that dogs tail....should the dog yelp and draw closer to you or should the dog show aggression. (Hint: dog has no way of knowing it was an accident) Just curious.


If it were Keefer, he'd probably turn his head and look to see what happened. I doubt he'd even get up off the ground, much less yelp or show aggression - he has an extremely high pain tolerance, and we step on his tail and roll our office chairs over it all the time because he tends to lay RIGHT behind us, and he's always in the way while I'm in the kitchen. He's been stepped by strangers on out in public too, at the brewpub we go to.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok cliff, now you have to critique our dogs different reactions)


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Tried this with Jax. He just turns his head to see what I want. Then he tucks his tail under himself.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Obviously, there are many different answers. I find it so interesting that today's German Shepherd would in most cases react so "polictically correct"....smile. As my scenario ties into this thread, there was a time when the more often than not the reaction,(obviously I'm talking about by stranger or nonpact person), would be to react in a strong forward way; ranging from alert and ready to agress to growling, or even a fast whirlaround and snap. I'm not sure any of these type responses constitute a deficiency in temperament unless they are based in a lack of nerve strength or fear aggression. The point is innate aggression to provication is appropriate behavoir in my eyes, and unfortunately dogs don't understand the concept of sorry, it was an accident....so I'm just saying that if aggression was a response I would not be upset.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

When I read the question it reminded me of what I'd said earlier, "I might be looking for a higher threshold than some, but that is mainly a function of my lifestyle." Would I be upset if I hurt my dog and he instinctively put his teeth on me? No, but I'm also not upset if he doesn't. I would not be upset if I stepped on someone else's dog and it came back with a growl or putting teeth on me. I would be upset if a dog flat out attacked, or if he whimpered and cowered. 

One time, I was standing on my dog's tail during protection work. Neither of us realized this, and when it was time for me to alert my dog on command, he lunged forward and we heard this sound like a zipper being pulled fast and there was all the beautiful tail hair on the ground. In that context, the dog didn't even notice. At the moment, he had a bigger fish to fry!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how about exchanging the word aggression (anger) and think of the terms assertive, which is strength and take charge , which the gsd should have , and fight , being a forward proactive resolution when needed.

Too many times aggression has been linked with fear defensiveness.

To Cliff's question , the step on tail is an accident , with no challenge or threat. The person who did it has moved on. The dog should not be so pain sensitive. 

I take my service dog potentials to chaotic Kensington Market , walk up and down the busiest (west) side of Spadina. I have had the dogs bumped by loaded grocery bags, tails run over by baby strollers, dogs crowded and squeezed by sheer volume of crush of people . At one intersection waiting for light to change a young child decided to drape herself over the back of the dog sitting at my side . He looked around and then stood up. There has to be some tolerance and understanding of what is going on . I don't want knee jerk reactions. To set the record straight that dog was no wuss . In decoy work stake out he nearly stretched a stallion tie out bungee cord to its extreme end even moving the pole . The decoy was a police evaluator -- who loved the dog , who was social and serious . I held on to him as a breeding animal and his sons now go to work with depts. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I guess a couple of my dogs would be then classified as "non politically correct"....
I have one that I am sure would act aggressive..(but she is always hoping someone will challenge her)...and one for sure would "voice" his reaction with growling.
My dogs are not "stones"...they can react and will react to outside stranger stimuli.
*Acts of perceived aggression begets a reaction of possible aggression*.
They do not like corrections from "strangers or outsiders"....nor do I think that they should readily accept it.
The are calm and confident around entire groups of people, dogs and circumstances...but they *must* be....._I can't have them any other way._

_*Carmen...my resonse is not directed to the accidental steppings, stroller rolling, bumping of one person to dog etc...these things happen on a daily basis around here. I have stepped on, slammed kennel doors on, tripped over etc...and on days when training or visitors (children) are here.....OH POOR DOGS! *....aggression in those situations is not acceptable, will & does not happen._


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Just like in protection training, a GSD should have the ability to escalate and de-escalate based on the level of threat. Over-reacting or not reacting is not appropriate. A GSD should have the ability to determine the level of threat and react accordingly with the amount of aggression to match it and be capable of stopping himself when the threat is gone . I had a woman come look at one of my dogs for breeding. She was standing back looking at his structure and then suddenly moved quickly towards us and pushed down on his withers. His response was one big, powerful bark right in her face. He certainly was in range to bite her but controlled himself. She backed up and he immediately relaxed while still looking at her. That ability IMO, is one of the most important as far as GSD temperament goes. The dog should not get rattled and continue on or over-react. His response should meet the level of the threat but he should be capable of "getting a grip" on himself after he reacts, where he can see that what he did was" enough".

I took a year old female out to a SchH club some years back. She had not been many places but none of the proceedings bothered her a bit. There was a group of people with chairs set up in a horseshoe shape next to the field. This female was sitting on the grass next to a 4 year old girl, ( something else she had never seen but seemed to be enjoying). One of the club helpers walked up to the front of the horseshoe and decided he was going to challenge this female. He stared at her and then took one menacing step toward her. She exploded and went after him whereupon he ran off. The people in the chairs were all completely impressed by the aggression that came out of that dog but what impressed me the most was how quickly she went right back to sitting next to the child . She was not at all rattled and there was no residual aggression where she was looking around at the friendly people with suspicion. I could see the nervousness in the mother of the child so I said something to her and pointed out the dog's body language and she relaxed. That, for me, is GSD temperament the way it should be. 

Again, for me, it is not the level of aggression that is the problem, it is the nerves that supports the dog's ability to "think" . That is what is always missing in the weaker or more fear aggressive dogs.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Liesje said:


> When I read the question it reminded me of what I'd said earlier, "I might be looking for a higher threshold than some, but that is mainly a function of my lifestyle."


That's exactly my feeling too - I probably want a higher threshold than even you do, and it is definitely because of my lifestyle. 



> One time, I was standing on my dog's tail during protection work. Neither of us realized this, and when it was time for me to alert my dog on command, he lunged forward and *we heard this sound like a zipper being pulled fast and there was all the beautiful tail hair on the ground*.


Try having a longcoat with an exceptionally long tail - I know that sound well....


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Vandal said:


> One of the club helpers walked up to the front of the horseshoe and decided he was going to challenge this female. He stared at her and then took one menacing step toward her. She exploded and went after him whereupon he ran off.


I have heard many people voice responses to this "type" of scenario. Very often, even within the GSD world, that response is said to be overboard, weak-nerved, etc. They will say check his thyroid, hire a behaviorst ASAP. Even when, to me, it clearly sounds like a strong dog reacting within the range of appropriate responses, to a challenge. Not a fear-biter-hackles up-tail-tucked response.

And I am not saying that every dog that goes off on someone is a strong dog. I well know there are a lot a nervy and inappropriately aggressive dogs.

Something that Anne mentioned previously was a bit overlooked. That *WE* as owner-handlers are often uneasy and reactive. Then our dogs mirror us in those emotions. Said dog gets labeled as crummy, nervy, etc. when in actuality the dog is doing things that are completely understandable.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One thing that dog training has taught me is to look at the people as much, if not more, than the dog. People send all the wrong signals to their dogs. When the dog responds to those wrong signals, he is immediately punished or sees even more anxiety in his handler. Over 90% of the people who come here for training have some sort of "aggression problem" with their dog. I have yet to see a case where the handler was not contributing , in a big way, to their dog's behavior. Yes, some dogs tolerate this very poor handling better than others but , like I already said, all dogs benefit when the handler is in control of their emotions. GSDs are especially sensitive to their handler's moods and emotions. It is one of the things that people like the most about the breed, that they are so "in tuned" to their handlers. At the same time, people simply refuse to believe that a GSD can sense how they are feeling. What you feel shows in your body language. Even people can see it. I am sure most people have had someone ask them what is wrong when they have not said a word. This is especially true with people who have lived together for a period of time. The other person learns to read your body language and can see things in your body language better than other people who do not know you as well. The same is true for your dog but they have a greater ability to do that. 

Also, the behavior of the people the dog is introduced to matters...a LOT. Many people are nervous around GSDs. That nervousness is displayed in a tenseness to their body language. For a dog, that tense body language usually means trouble. I use it when I work dogs as the helper in SchH protection training. If I want to bring out aggression, I am more still, stiff and tense. Almost every dog will respond with aggression when I do that. When two dogs are thinking about fighting they will stand very still and tense and may move slowly around each other, with that stiff body language. That goes on for a few seconds and then the fight is on. What we don't see, the dogs do. Body language is their language. When the person in front of the dog is doing this and the handler feels nervous , the dog feels all of it. In protection training, the handler acts the part as does the bad guy. People who have no intention of protection training their dogs, are setting up these scenarios without realizing it. Job security for me but the dogs usually pay in a very big way when the people are simply oblivious, and just too willing to label the dog as being the problem. In reality, it is mostly what they are doing and the situations they are placing their dogs in.

Like I said before, even dogs with some weakness will benefit when the handler is aware and understands some of this.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

"My dog and I trained protection last night."
response: "Oh, you went to your schutzhund club?"
"No, just walked around PetSmart."


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Okay, I have a silly question - how much of the "assume a threat and then immediately back down when it's determined that there is no threat" vs "don't react until and unless it's determined that there is a threat" could be attributed TO lifestyle? 

It seems that a dog who was socialized to the kind of environment where bumping, jostling and even tails being stepped on was routine, so for the dog this is normally a benign situation, would be less likely to react with aggression then the same dog would if they hadn't been repeatedly exposed over a period of time. Or am I missing something?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

cliffson1 said:


> Question....Your dog is standing or laying next to you and someone accidently steps on that dogs tail....should the dog yelp and draw closer to you or should the dog show aggression. (Hint: dog has no way of knowing it was an accident) Just curious.


IMO, neither is appropriate.
The dog slinking back in avoidance is showing a lack of courage and hardness. Not appropriate for a GSD. Period. 

The dog who immediately reacts with aggression, is showing too much sharpness/low trigger threshold for aggression and is reacting before he thinks and assesses the situation. Also not appropriate. Not in a breed with the brains this one is supposed to have.

Of course the manner in which the whole thing happened would play a part too. If the person rushed over to the dog (like the lady Anne described) and then stepped on the tail, a quicker aggressive reaction would be expected and appropriate. If the person was just calmly and nonchalantly strolling by, with no other actions to indicate any form of aggression from the person, then the dog should respond differently.

But then, I don't believe in this situation there is anyway for the dog to have "no way of knowing it was just an accident".  

Dogs can assess body language in people in a split second. They read people like books and know what we're thinking and feeling quicker and better than we do at times. I would expect the dog to respond with alertness, and then think before he acts and ascertain what happened and the intent, which wouldn't take long. And then once that is done, to respond accordingly. If just an accident as described, the dog ought to be able to determine that pretty darned quickly via a simple look and sniff at the offender, and then exercise proper judgment to realize there was no intent behind it, and settle back down. If there was intent behind it, an aggressive response would be warranted, and I'd want to see one. 

Aggression isn't the problem in dogs. It's other temperament failings that bring that out in inappropriate circumstances, dogs reacting before they think, and then being unable to think clearly once activated, overreacting, and being unable to turn it back off again that leads to problems. A good GSD has aggression. But he also assesses a situation before showing aggression and exercises good judgment with regard to whether or not an aggressive response is warranted, tailors his response to be appropriate for the situation, no more no less, and then goes back to normal as soon as it's over.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

cassidy's mom said:


> okay, i have a silly question - how much of the "assume a threat and then immediately back down when it's determined that there is no threat" vs "don't react until and unless it's determined that there is a threat" could be attributed to lifestyle?
> 
> It seems that a dog who was socialized to the kind of environment where bumping, jostling and even tails being stepped on was routine, so for the dog this is normally a benign situation, would be less likely to react with aggression then the same dog would if they hadn't been repeatedly exposed over a period of time. Or am i missing something?


great post!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes Vandal , yes Chris -- in the scenario provided the tail was in the way of someone passing by -- not some guy standing behind the dog knee bent ready to mash the tail into the ground. In my post I said the dog would observe the person moving on , keep on going , maybe oblivious to having stepped on a tail.

discernment is so important -- in the winter with glare ice and carrying buckets of water for the dogs I have taken wipe out skids and have landed on top of a dog, or had a dog take a spill and keep careening into my path knocking me down like some human bowling pin. I have tripped over vegetation when jogging on trails and landed on a dog romping in front of me . 
Even as kids we always took the family dog with us to the sledding hills and there was always a pile up of kids and dog at the bottom. That same dog did a true to life apprehension when we had a house break in .
Carmen


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Chris..I would agree.
The dogs that I speak of in my post, have good aggression..stemming from a sound, thinking mind. *They are my personal home dogs*.
They can be in any situation (and have been)...family, friends, training, shows...and are excellent around people.
The female is a strong, tough girl.....she loves a "helper fight"...the more fight...the better.
The male is more laid back and "reacts slower & calmer" than she does....but no less intense when he commits. BOTH dogs do not react aggressive to nonsense.
We have had tarps fall on us and them with people under them, chairs collapse with children (my grandchildren) on top of them...and constant stepping, tripping and falling all over them......nothing reactive.....because it's not a threat.
BUT...approach or physically act aggressive...yes...then they absolutely will react.
Growl, bark or lunge?....yes.

Maybe I want something different from my "home dogs" then most people....?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Chris Wild said:


> I would expect the dog to respond with alertness, and then think before he acts and ascertain what happened and the intent, which wouldn't take long. And then once that is done, to respond accordingly. If just an accident as described, the dog ought to be able to determine that pretty darned quickly via a simple look and sniff at the offender, and then exercise proper judgment to realize there was no intent behind it, and settle back down. If there was intent behind it, an aggressive response would be warranted, and I'd want to see one.


That is EXACTLY what I would want, and that's pretty much what I'd expect to see from Keefer.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Okay, I have a silly question - how much of the "assume a threat and then immediately back down when it's determined that there is no threat" vs "don't react until and unless it's determined that there is a threat" could be attributed TO lifestyle?


I think it's both. I think that genetics *always* set the outer limits of where a dog can lie on a spectrum, and environmental factors like training and socialization might put a dog at different dots on that spectrum but *only* between the constraints set by genetics.

I don't really like anecdotal evidence but I can't think of another way to explain how I understand this. So, say on the genetic spectrum of reacting to people coming in my house, a dog like Nikon will at the very least ignore and at the most attack. He has been socialized a lot, so he has people he "knows" like my husband, my friends, family, etc. If one of those people comes over, they can simply walk into the house, and even make a fake "threatening" move at him, and he will ignore or maybe become slightly aroused as if it is some kind of play game. But, if it's a stranger that comes in, he won't just ignore he will at the very least alert and then escalate to barking and fighting depending on the level and persistence of the threat. Turn that backwards...take my helper for example. If my helper was not my helper, he could walk into my house as a neutral strange and expect a no response from Nikon. But since he is the helper and they have somewhat of a relationship based on dealing with conflict and threat, it's highly likely that Nikon would react with barking at the very least even if he came in neutral. So, he's never going to just snap and attack someone straight off, and he's never going to pee on himself and hide - he's going to do *something* along the spectrum of ignore to meet the threat with equal aggression. Socialization and training help him sort out the level of threat, I think, but genetics dictates how he actually responds to each level of threat.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lies, that would be my thinking too, that both genetics and environment play an important role in the dog's reaction, and that while your lifestyle determines the kind of dog you want, to some extent your lifestyle also shapes the dog you end up with.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

It sounds like everyone is pretty much saying the same thing. The dog shouldn't cower and shouldn't over react. What I think is different is the definition of what is aggression.

From my novice observation there are a series of behaviors...

Standing stiffly
Staring
Ears forward
Posturing (like what Anne described)
Warning bark
Hackles
Growling
Showing teeth
Moving forward
Rapid deep barking
Lunging/snapping
Biting

I am not saying a dog would use every one of these behaviors. Which they use is up to the individual dog. Some may start further down the list than others in the same situation.

To me, in Cliff's scenario, the first 6 would be ok with a stranger present. 

So, I guess it depends on your definition of aggression. At what point in the process do you label it aggression. Having owned a fear aggressive dog, I recognized it back at the standing up and staring and call that agression. Maybe my outlook is different because of that experience.

Where would you label the behavior aggression?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Lies, that would be my thinking too, that both genetics and environment play an important role in the dog's reaction, and that while your lifestyle determines the kind of dog you want, to some extent your lifestyle also shapes the dog you end up with.


I think that is fine if it is still within what is correct for a German Shepherd. I am learning that with my personality and my lifestyle, I prefer a higher threshold dog. But, that doesn't mean that I want my GSD to be a Golden Retreiver.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Where would you label the behavior aggression?


I will let someone else answer this but the question made me wonder how people are determining the fear part. Constantly , people are saying their dog is "fear aggressive". I am wondering how people are coming to that conclusion. Is it just a case of the dog barked at someone or are you looking at the whole picture? Like what I and a couple of others, talked about earlier.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If I were to see a dog I thought was fear aggressive, generally it is because of several things like general body language of the dog, observing the dog showing avoidance, even trying to get away but only then escalating, and the dog doing "aggressive" things like barking and snapping but actually moving back, or moving back and forth rather than coming on stronger when the threat increases or gets closer. I guess the way I have it in my mind is that usually the dogs that are labeled "fear aggressive" are dogs that have weaker nerves which make their threshold for what they interpret as a "threat" too low.

To me "aggression" means a dog that will use his bark and his bite to control and the dog feels he is in control and can win. He will meet a threat with the same level of power and aggression that the threat is showing him. A dog that truly feels in control is not going to start snapping only after he has already been backed into a corner and a dog in control isn't going to move out and alert but then back up when the threat turns toward him. At least, I don't think/hope not...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Overall, I expect that people who are working their dogs in protection to have a better understanding of aggression, although that certainly is not always the case. It is just that I glance at some threads where people, ( mostly pet owners), are talking about fear aggression. All the advisors are there re-enforcing that belief , usually without asking any questions about the situation, the age of the dog or behavior of the participants. 

Since I board dogs here along with training them, I talk to all kinds of people with all kinds of dogs. On the telephone, some of them make their dogs sound like unstable, vicious and unmanageable BEASTS that might eat me if I enter their run to feed them. I have learned to take all of it with a grain of salt because what shows up, is usually FAR different than what was described. People seem to really be disturbed by anything that looks the slightest bit aggressive coming out of their dog. It is a reason to panic, making me question the nerves of the PEOPLE. 
Society has changed. Used to be a dog was expected to protect and if he did, a lawyer was not sending you a letter the next day or Animal Control showing up to cart your dog off to be put down. Here in CA a dog gets two bites and then he is a goner. Didn't used to be that way and I think this new fearful mentality in the people and the laws is having an impact. People are over-reacting because the consequences are severe.

Anyway, my question is more aimed at people who have or did have what they are calling, a fear aggressive dog. I know what fear in a dog looks like, just wondering if others do.

I will just tell one more little training story from recently. An older couple contacted me because their " very fear aggressive, dangerous., etc etc, dog" , was going off on people when they would walk her on the paths near their home. The dog had pulled both of them over going after bikers, joggers, dogs, etc. The way they described the dog, you would have thought holy cow, what a monster!. So, they came for training. They told me all the stories stating that the dog hated just about anything coming near them and seemed to go off completely unprovoked.
I explained to them that most of the time, the dog is reacting to the behavior of the owners. The husband visibly displayed his skepticism with that theory. So, I demonstrated it. I told him to have the dog sit. Then I told him I was going to walk right up to him and asked him not to react. He was sure he could do it because in his mind, he never reacted before his dog did these things. So, I took a few steps forward and immediately I saw him tighten the leash and the dog started to alert. I pointed it out, whereupon he looked with surprise at his clenched fists around his leash and the tension in his shoulder area and arms. When it was pointed out, he could feel it, otherwise, he hadn't even noticed. We worked on that for a couple of minutes, including getting him to control his voice when he told her to sit, and then I walked all the way up to the dog. Nothing, she sat there. They said the dog would drag them over trying to get to people on bikes, or other dogs. So, I told him the same thing. Tell the dog to sit, remind her calmly that she is to stay in the sit as we approached and above all, stay calm yourself. I brought out the first dog and within a minute, my dog was heeling around his dog within just a few feet. No reaction. Same with the next few dogs. I brought out my bike, rode around , rode directly at them and skidded to a stop...nothing...the dog did as she was instructed and stayed in the sit. This couple was well into their 70s. There were no head popping corrections going on, just a calm handler telling the dog what he wanted her to do in these situations. They came for one more session and then went back to the walking paths . I told them to only walk there when they felt like they could present this calm handling to their dog. I told them to move off to the side just a few feet and tell the dog what to do, ( sit), when the things that had set her off in the past were heading toward them. At the end of the week, they e-mailed me to tell me how much different their dog was behaving. A month later, they boarded the dog and were having no further problems. It was not the dog who had changed, it was them and they now knew that. It was actually quite a nice dog who was simply trying to do her job of protecting this couple. They were telling her they needed her help without realizing it. That happens more times then you might think. I see it CONSTANTLY.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ok I have a question for you guys, how would you interpret this scenerio.

Masi has no problems in crowds, anywhere out in public, she is not a social dog with strangers. Very obedient, minds her own business, doesn't give two hoots about people she doesn't know and prefers it that way.

She has done this twice,,her & I walking, meet up with someone I know, she doesn't know them, she is sitting at my side, just watching, not on high alert, but watching, calm, the person starts flapping their arms around getting high pitched animated, jerky movements,,she has gone forward and sits right in front of them and BARKS, exactly like you would see in a 'bark & hold"...I tell her to LEAVE IT, she returns and sits calmly at my side. So what's "that" about? Perceived threat? or what? Where did this 'bark & hold" because that's exactly what she does, come from if never trained for it?? Just curious

As an add on, she has never bit anyone, I have not done any type of protection training with her, she'd let an axe murderer in my house, socialized up the wazoo, just not a social dog with strangers, she minds her own business and can go into any type of new situation and be ok with it and I am fine with this..


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I believe that Moose was aggressive out of fear. I don't think I have enough experience to identify the difference in other dogs, but living with Moose, I am confident in saying his issue was fear.

I think I can summarize by saying he had very inappropriate displays of agression when there was no threat.

I look at photos of Moose when we first brought him home from a shelter at 9 months. I can see now with more experience that he was cowering on his bed. His eyes wide...

He would choose flight before fight whenever possible and growl a warning before trying to bite. 

I completely understand and agree with your description. Over time, I built up a fear of him growling or snapping at people and saw his behavior escalate when we met people. However, I know this was not the CAUSE. He was reactive to children and adults alike with or without us present. He was a golden retreiver mix and LOOKED like a golden. It never occured to me in advance that he would be reactive, so I had no reason to be tense.

We socialized him, took him to training classes, had a "professional" trainer come and work with him... 

On the day we put him down I had to ask the vet to sedate him before giving him the final dose to put him to sleep so he could have his last moments with us without wearing a muzzle.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Just to be clear before I go on, I am not commenting specifically about Moose or what you did right or wrong. My comments are general, based on my own experiences and on what I have seen over the years. 

First, there are certainly dogs with genetic temperament problems. This, I also see constantly. However, about your "not the cause " comment...sometimes, ( and again, not commenting on Moose), a young dog will bark or react at things he has not seen before. It is a lack of experience in the dog where what some dogs have seen hundreds of times, a young one has never seen and reacts to it. At the time, the handler can be perfectly calm and the dog does something anyway. It is after that initial reaction from the dog where the problems are created. That first bark either upsets, embarrasses or frightens the handler. After that, the handler prepares for the dog to react, the dog feels it and the cycle starts. So, it does not have to be a case, in the beginning, where the handler causes it but I can't think of a case where I was not there coaching the handlers to relax after they started having problems. It is NOT an easy thing to do and I had to learn it myself with my first dog. That is why I know to look at the people because I saw the huge difference in my dog when I finally taught myself to be calm and not tense up.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> he had very inappropriate displays of agression when there was no threat.


Ruth I'm just taking what you said and applying it to others.. Because I hear this all the time on here and other places..

Just because we don't see or feel something as a threat, does that really mean our dogs should be the same? I only ask this because their senses are so much greater than ours.. And I think Anne touches on this a lot about body language or signals we throw off, that us humans don't pick up on but our dogs sure do..

So maybe in some situations when our dogs react there really is a reason to them? I know some dogs have a strong sense in picking up on people that are using drugs and alcohol..

Here's a story of my own when my son was living.. 

I was laying in bed watching some TV before going to sleep.. The lights were out and my bedroom door was open.. All of a sudden Chase jumps up moves to the door and starts barking mad.. We'll my son was standing there quiet as can be, not sure how long he was there, scared the heck out of me.. I called (probably more of a scream) Chase off and back to me and he came immediately, but if my son had raised his arms or moved his legs.. I have no doubt Chase would have bitten him.. 

So was my dog reacting out of fear because he knew this person and knew them well and shouldn't have considered him a threat?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> Just to be clear before I go on, I am not commenting specifically about Moose or what you did right or wrong. My comments are general, based on my own experiences and on what I have seen over the years.
> 
> First, there are certainly dogs with genetic temperament problems. This, I also see constantly. However, about your "not the cause " comment...sometimes, ( and again, not commenting on Moose), a young dog will bark or react at things he has not seen before. It is a lack of experience in the dog where what some dogs have seen hundreds of times, a young one has never seen and reacts to it. At the time, the handler can be perfectly calm and the dog does something anyway. It is after that initial reaction from the dog where the problems are created. That first bark either upsets, embarrasses or frightens the handler. After that, the handler prepares for the dog to react, the dog feels it and the cycle starts. So, it does not have to be a case, in the beginning, where the handler causes it but I can't think of a case where I was not there coaching the handlers to relax after they started having problems. It is NOT an easy thing to do and I had to learn it myself with my first dog. That is why I know to look at the people because I saw the huge difference in my dog when I finally taught myself to be calm and not tense up.


 
I agree. Moose's issues requred me to do a LOT of reading about aggression from many many sources. I learned exactly what you talked about in this post and practiced it with Moose and with my dogs since then. They were all GSDs though and have genitically decent nerve.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I trust my dogs' instincts but not always their judgment, if that makes sense. I have an opposite problem where I have a dog that is so social and friendly he'd let the most evil, sadistic people in our house for a few butt scritches. If that true, then I have to believe that there are dogs out there who are *too* judgmental and discerning. I think that line is one everyone has to define for themselves based on their lifestyle. I can't have my GSDs sounding off at my DH because it is dark and he makes one wrong move. At this point in the discussion it's not as much about what I think is "correct" as it is what I will actually tolerate.

What I expect and feel should always be part of the breed is that true verbal harassment and/or physical threats are met with an appropriate response and that the dog is able and willing to counter if the threat should escalate. Whether or not my dog will sound off at someone in the darkness is less important to me than whether he is willing to stay in the fight if he is directly confronted. To me there's a difference between a dog's initial response to a perceived threat and how far that dog is willing to go. That is why I often raise an eyebrow when someone says their 5 month old puppy shows great aggression and protection because it barked at a weird looking man across the street. Like Anne says, young GSDs pretty much bark at everything. That doesn't really tell me much about the aggression in the dog.

Luckily I've never been in a situation where I've actually had to call on a dog to protect me. I've taken them with me when going past questionable areas/people, but nothing ever came of it. I've done various types of protection work with some more realistic scenarios, even "double blind" where neither the dog nor I had any idea that a big man was going to turn and threaten me and in those situations the dog has always acted as I would want. But luckily I've never had anyone try to jump me on the street or bust into my house.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Vandal said:


> ...a young dog will bark or react at things he has not seen before. It is a lack of experience in the dog where what some dogs have seen hundreds of times, a young one has never seen and reacts to it. At the time, the handler can be perfectly calm and the dog does something anyway....


 I think that the handler will need strong nerves not to stay calm with the dog but to withstand unasked for and unwanted judgment and advice generously offered by people who witness this juvenile reaction. If I got a penny for every 'you have to neuter him', 'he will bite you', 'you need to see a behaviorist', 'you need to correct him', 'aggressive dog' etc. I've heard during my dog's puppyhood, I'd be rich.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

G-burg said:


> Ruth I'm just taking what you said and applying it to others.. Because I hear this all the time on here and other places..
> 
> Just because we don't see or feel something as a threat, does that really mean our dogs should be the same? I only ask this because their senses are so much greater than ours.. And I think Anne touches on this a lot about body language or signals we throw off, that us humans don't pick up on but our dogs sure do..
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying and I meant what I said to be a summary. It was not meant to be a definition to apply to all circumstanses. I meant appropriate from what a "normal" dog would do in the same circumstance.

I can only speak from my own experience. I could give you example after example. Moose had week nerve. Period.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> I think that the handler will need strong nerves not to stay calm with the dog but to withstand unasked for and unwanted judgment and advice generously offered by people who witness this juvenile reaction. If I got a penny for every 'you have to neuter him', 'he will bite you', 'you need to see a behaviorist', 'you need to correct him', 'aggressive dog' etc. I've heard during my dog's puppyhood, I'd be rich.


I heard that about Bison too and laughed at them. Bison wasn't afraid of ANYTHING as a puppy, but was labeled "agressive" because he was a land shark and barked his head off when he got over stimulated.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Nikon and now Pan both had/have this stage around 6-10 months where they get really barky at other dogs. When I had Nikon, I was coming from the pet type training environment where they stress leash walking and manners and having a "dog park" dog. I had to get my head out of that way of thinking and just realize that he's a YOUNG, mentally immature dog and he's just being a barking fool. Like others are saying, I got the earfuls about how he's dog aggressive and will never be trustworthy and needs this collar and this head halter and bla bla bla. The one thing that struck me was the pet type trainers are on this "positive only!" bandwagon yet when it comes to a dog going through this phase their first response is to basically flood the dog. Flooding is not a training technique I like. The dog barks and shows signs he's unsure of himself, how more clear can he make it to me? Why should my response be to slap another collar on his face and then force him back into that same situation over and over? I just stopped listening and eventually the dog grew up and it became a non-issue all by itself. I've got multiple dogs, keep them all in the house together including three males, two intact and I've never had a dog fight or even a rough spat. I can have my dog in my tiny front yard off lead while I wash my van and he couldn't care less if a barky dog passes by the house. He just grew out of that dumb adolescent male phase where he barked at everything, I didn't really DO anything other than not stress out and not force the issue, but I'm sure if I had forced the issue I would have made myself more nervous and the whole situation would have gotten out of hand.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

in my experience with my young male, and i have learned alot from him......he isn't a real confident dog, dispite total socialization from day one, classes, exposure to everything constantly.......the biggest thing with him is strangers, and people approaching him.....i started him in a standard counter conditioning program and faithfully stuck to it for almost a year with no progression........with the standard counter conditioning watching for triggers and taking them away when showing signs of threshold.......i realized after careful thought and really watching him this was not the way to go address things with him because by taking him away from the person was getting him what he wanted and not teaching him to deal with it, and it was also reinforcing his fear him thinking mom's taking me away from this person they must be bad, etc.......i decided to try a few things with selected people, and i was also taking a look at myself as a leader........me making all his decisions for him and being the confident one.........i then took over and i approached the people very confidently and assertively walking up to them within a few feet immediately making him sit...this was kind of funny because it was something he never expected.......lol when standing there if he looked at the person then looked back at me i would reward and practice his focus on me........then i would have the person start to approach us and when they were half way to us i would have them stop and i would walk the rest of the way to them........this worked much better and have had great success.....he is still a quirky dog, but he's one that everything is black and white, with me making his decisions for him......i think alot of these quirks are learned behavior, dogs do what works, what has worked in the past, etc.......its up to us to figure things out according to the dog, temperament etc....its alot harder with a less confident weaker nerved dog, takes alot of time and effort to figure things out.....most of my past dogs were solid confident ones, easy training, comfortable with the world types.

genetics flaws are challenging, but it does come down to the owner figuring things out and working to improve things. most people would not want to deal with such issues and rightly so, its a huge commitment.....its an education thats for sure.........


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