# Teaching a young dog to "run the blinds".



## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

This is a very fun thing I have been doing with my pup via the suggestion of my trainer, and I think it is going to make running blinds so much easier for her in the future. We've been working on it for about a month, and the results have been phenomenal... she is about 6 1/2 months old now.


We started up setting two traffic cones staggered a few feet from each other. Using food, I taught my pup to go "around" one cone and rewarded when she succeeded. I did this until it stuck in her head.

Once she went around one cone consistently, I would do the other cone (starting from the heel position) until she figured out how to go both ways. Once she got that, I then had her do one, come back to the center, then do the other. 

As she figured that out, we then started moving the two cones farther from each other until they were about 10 feet apart, and started using less physical cues (me pointing and walking with her to each cone, guiding with food, etc). 

Today, I asked how to start doing four cones. We set them staggered equally on each side, ran one set, had her fuss, and then set her on the second set. She succeeded immediately. We then set up six cones, the sets being about five feet from each other, and did the same thing.


I just thought I'd share a really fun tip to start with young dogs, as I REALLY think it is going to make learning the blinds a lot easier for both of us. We took a video of the six today, I'm hoping my boss will send me the video at the end of the week and I'll post it 

Again, I realize this isn't "running blinds", but for a young pup it is a very neat way to start it off.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Why are you using traffic cones and not blinds? In my experience dogs taught as you describe end up running around anything on or near the field. What happens when there are traffic cones near the schutzhund field? How do you teach your dog to discriminate between cones and blinds?


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Fast said:


> Why are you using traffic cones and not blinds? In my experience dogs taught as you describe end up running around anything on or near the field. What happens when there are traffic cones near the schutzhund field? How do you teach your dog to discriminate between cones and blinds?


I did something similar with my dog. At this stage he will run around just about anything I ask him to. Blinds, trees, garbage cans, small buildings, barrels, whatever. Chances are probably pretty good that there will be nothing else around the blind to confuse the dog too much. I've found it helps the dog to run to where you are pointing, rather than running the slolam (did I spell that right?) to get to blind six.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know people who train it running around trees, chairs whatever...
I started on the training field with blinds (randomizing the hot one) My dog had a real hard time running 3(control work was needed big time!) we haven't attempted 6 yet.

If the dog will run around something for a reward, why not, I think it is easy to trasfer over. 
BUT put a helper in the blind....changes the game when the dog figures it out.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

mthurston0001 said:


> Chances are probably pretty good that there will be nothing else around the blind to confuse the dog too much.


Chances are, pretty good and probably. These types of words during training equal a poor performance or failure on trial day.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> If the dog will run around something for a reward, why not, I think it is easy to trasfer over.


Is not a run around exercise; it's a search. You can start with a toy, but in the end the dog should be searching the blinds with intent and aggression. In my experience, dogs that are taught too long to search the blinds for a toy don't search with intent to find the helper, but simply swoop around the blinds like it's an agility exercise. If the dog is in the wrong place mentally during the blind search it not only makes for a bad blind search it also affect the hold and bark.

The problem is not about the behavior transferring over. It will transfer very easily. Then you have a dog that will run around cones, poles, trash cans and blinds. The problem is the dog thinks that he is allowed to run things other than blinds. Now comes trial day and they have trash cans on the edge of the field, traffic cones holding up a sheep fence on one side of the field and light posts on the other. And I'm telling you, *from* *experience *with lots of dogs, that most dogs will become confused and try to run around the poles, cones and trash cans along with the blinds. Then you have to un-teach the dog not to run crap around the field. And I think that that is unfair to the dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

mthurston0001 said:


> I did something similar with my dog. At this stage he will run around just about anything I ask him to. Blinds, trees, garbage cans, small buildings, barrels, whatever. Chances are probably pretty good that there will be nothing else around the blind to confuse the dog too much. I've found it helps the dog to run to where you are pointing, rather than running the slolam (did I spell that right?) to get to blind six.


Wrong! 

It happened to my bitches mother and she wasn't taught with cones as far as I know. She was nine years at that point and the handler the breeders son who is a teenager. 
*




The blind could just be next to something else...
*


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Fast said:


> Why are you using traffic cones and not blinds? In my experience dogs taught as you describe end up running around anything on or near the field. What happens when there are traffic cones near the schutzhund field? How do you teach your dog to discriminate between cones and blinds?



I am not using blinds because, as stated, this is a game to imprint an idea. If I used blinds to teach a game, where is the seriousness when it comes to actually running blinds?

I am not worried about how she will feel about traffic cones in 10 months (she is nowhere NEAR old enough to compete yet) because within the next 10 months she will be learning the real drill. By the time she is doing real bite work and has run the blinds for a helper, I highly doubt she would rather go for a trash can once she knows the helper is in the blind. 

Didn't mean to start a debate, just thought it'd be fun to share. Sheesh


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I teach my dogs to go around anything I indicate and *only* what I indicate. The main reason for this exercise is not really teaching the blind search but working in the control early on. The most important part for me when doing this is that the dog returns to me. At my old house I setup three blinds in a triangle and trained the dog to go to them in any combination I indicated. Unless I direct them to another blind/object, then they are to return to me and platz. The point of this training, for me, is not really teaching the blind search (because when you get a helper or helpers in those blinds trust me your dog is *not* just going to be running them like they do for a toy!) but to imprint the control and the concept of going out away from me and being able to take further direction. Handy for running blinds later on, VERY handy for agility (this type of work is sort of no-brainer for agility), not a bad life lesson for the dog in general. My dogs do not have issues running blinds in protection and are not running around every object on the field. I also train with the philosophy that rewards (and corrections) come from me and this is a great exercise for training the dog to understand this type of training. I never put a reward in the blind. I have it and they know it but they *must* do as I say to get it. It's fun to have a dog be able to be directed around random objects all over a soccer field and not have to put rewards out there or fake them out. I've also used this just as a form of exercise. I take Nikon to my husband's school and have him run figure-8s between the two soccer goals.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Wrong!
> 
> It happened to my bitches mother and she wasn't taught with cones as far as I know. She was nine years at that point and the handler the breeders son who is a teenager.
> *Utta von den Jungen Hansen Schutzdienst Judenburg 2010 - YouTube*
> ...


 
Wrong what? :crazy: Good grief, if we made a list of all the potential problems a dog could have by a particular method of training that would be a very, very, long list I think.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Ahhh..maybe you mean chances are very good that something will be next to the blind to confuse the dog. Well, maybe or maybe not. If anything can go wrong it usually does on trial day.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think there is more control when training it off the field than on with a hot blind. 
The foundation that Lies describes sets the dog up to look to the handler before going on to the next. 
My dog has a hard time running them then looking to me, because he is so loaded up to get to the helper. Had I taught him to round/check blinds in my back yard he would be a bit more under control, I think.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It always amazes me what people insist you should never do because a dog will have all these problems and yet....those of us that do it don't seem to ever have these problems. In fact my dogs run blinds in protection more reliably than most if not all the dogs we train with..... If you are training for Schutzhund and Schutzhund only then there's not really much benefit in doing other things but if you've never done them then you can't really say it will screw up the dog's Schutzhund routines. This is just a general gripe, not directed at anyone individually in this thread but honestly I don't see why a half-decent German shepherd dog can't learn a variety of skills and be able to differentiate based on what the owner commands. Take the A-frame for example. In agility the dog has to touch the contact zone at the bottom coming down and in SchH the dog does not. My agility dog is not stupid, he knows the difference and has never missed the contact in agility nor has any problems with the retrieve over the A-frame in Schutzhund. If you just put in the time and effort into training the behaviors you want in their respective contexts, it's not a big deal. We need to give ourselves and our dogs more credit!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

We teach the "search" as an OB exercise.
The dog is taught to "search" the blind and then is called back to the handler. 
We do this method to have "control & direction" for each "search".
The search becomes "tight" and the dog is always under direction.
As the dog progresses...we add the decoy. The decoy will be stationed at various blinds throughout the next stages in the "search" exercise....and then finally at the end blind predominately.
We also teach the "bark & hold" as an exercise BEFORE the helper is ever incorporated with the blind. The decoy is stationed everywhere in the beginning as the dog learns the exercise...

*Teaching any exercise can be modified to fit each individual dog.....and each trainer teaches things differently.* JMO


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Liesje said:


> It always amazes me what people insist you should never do because a dog will have all these problems and yet....those of us that do it don't seem to ever have these problems. In fact my dogs run blinds in protection more reliably than most if not all the dogs we train with..... If you are training for Schutzhund and Schutzhund only then there's not really much benefit in doing other things but if you've never done them then you can't really say it will screw up the dog's Schutzhund routines. This is just a general gripe, not directed at anyone individually in this thread but honestly I don't see why a half-decent German shepherd dog can't learn a variety of skills and be able to differentiate based on what the owner commands. Take the A-frame for example. In agility the dog has to touch the contact zone at the bottom coming down and in SchH the dog does not. My agility dog is not stupid, he knows the difference and has never missed the contact in agility nor has any problems with the retrieve over the A-frame in Schutzhund. If you just put in the time and effort into training the behaviors you want in their respective contexts, it's not a big deal. We need to give ourselves and our dogs more credit!


 :thumbup:


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Liesje said:


> It always amazes me what people insist you should never do because a dog will have all these problems and yet....those of us that do it don't seem to ever have these problems. In fact my dogs run blinds in protection more reliably than most if not all the dogs we train with..... If you are training for Schutzhund and Schutzhund only then there's not really much benefit in doing other things but if you've never done them then you can't really say it will screw up the dog's Schutzhund routines. This is just a general gripe, not directed at anyone individually in this thread but honestly I don't see why a half-decent German shepherd dog can't learn a variety of skills and be able to differentiate based on what the owner commands. Take the A-frame for example. In agility the dog has to touch the contact zone at the bottom coming down and in SchH the dog does not. My agility dog is not stupid, he knows the difference and has never missed the contact in agility nor has any problems with the retrieve over the A-frame in Schutzhund. If you just put in the time and effort into training the behaviors you want in their respective contexts, it's not a big deal. We need to give ourselves and our dogs more credit!


I was trying really hard to think of a comparison of using two different ideas and setting them up in two different ways and getting a result from it - you hit the nail on the head for me, thanks! I am also planning on doing agility with my dog so I guess that is a very good thought to chew on with what leads over to the other and what doesn't. 

Either way, whether it's practical or not, my pup enjoys running her traffic cones, and I think it's pretty neat to do.  We'll have to start using it to incorporate into schutzhund, but we've got a loooong time until that, so for now we'll just keep learning new fun things (whether they may hurt us or not... because getting the absolute highest score in schutzhund isn't my primary goal if it means we can't try new things for fun!)


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> It always amazes me what people insist you should never do because a dog will have all these problems and yet....those of us that do it don't seem to ever have these problems.


Or maybe people *HAVE *done it, competed at a high level, saw the problems and are trying to save you a bit of heartache. :laugh:


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Shaina said:


> Either way, whether it's practical or not, my pup enjoys running her traffic cones, and I think it's pretty neat to do.  We'll have to start using it to incorporate into schutzhund, but we've got a loooong time until that, so for now we'll just keep learning new fun things (whether they may hurt us or not... because getting the absolute highest score in schutzhund isn't my primary goal if it means we can't try new things for fun!)


BIG PROPS TO SHAINA! YOU ROCK!:thumbup::thumbup:

I absolutely respect this 100%. If you just want to have fun then say so. No need to get defensive or make up excuses. 

Shaina I hope you reach your goal and have butt loads of fun!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...careful Fast is a world competitor-maybe you know him?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> Or maybe people *HAVE *done it, competed at a high level, saw the problems and are trying to save you a bit of heartache. :laugh:


High level or not if people are training their dog to be* directed *around objects and the dog is not obeying or running around things they aren't directed to then there must've been some problem in the training and proofing. Honestly it's not a difficult exercise, something you often start training puppies for agility flatwork before they can do the obstacles.

Part of the reason I train this without blinds is so that the dog learns to run around exactly what it is directed to, not just blinds because blinds are all they ever see and are running on auto-pilot. It's the same with agility, you have to train the dog to take direction or your dog will leave the start line and just run his own course in the trial.

I get the same sort of responses when I recall my dog from a sit, lol. "Why would you EVER do that, it just causes problems!"


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

_ Fast said: Is not a run around exercise; it's a search. You can start with a toy, but in the end the dog should be searching the blinds with intent and aggression. In my experience, dogs that are taught too long to search the blinds for a toy don't search with intent to find the helper, but simply swoop around the blinds like it's an agility exercise. If the dog is in the wrong place mentally during the blind search it not only makes for a bad blind search it also affect the hold and bark._

_The problem is not about the behavior transferring over. It will transfer very easily. Then you have a dog that will run around cones, poles, trash cans and blinds. The problem is the dog thinks that he is allowed to run things other than blinds. Now comes trial day and they have trash cans on the edge of the field, traffic cones holding up a sheep fence on one side of the field and light posts on the other. And I'm telling you, *from* *experience *with lots of dogs, that most dogs will become confused and try to run around the poles, cones and trash cans along with the blinds. Then you have to un-teach the dog not to run crap around the field. And I think that that is unfair to the dog._


Fast


I would like to understand how exactly a dog searches a blind with aggression?

I taught my last competition dog to run around chairs initially before transfering to blinds, he competed in 5 regional Championships, 12 National Championship Events and made 2009 FCI world Championship team, always FULL points on blind search and NEVER had a problem running around other things.....After my last dog we bought a set of "mini blinds" and I used them to teach my current young dog, who just did SchH1 6 weeks ago (290) SchH2 3 weeks ago (278) at the Regional Championshps and SchH3 last weekend (282) and will be going to the National Championships at 3 years old in 3 weeks. he also has always got full points on the blind search...... Not sure what happened in your experience, but in mine, I have never had a problem "teaching blinds" with objects other then full size blinds...of course I switch over to full size blinds pretty quick once he has the idea, maybe 1 month on the small ones... But the judges are looking for fast, tight, checking in, directable blind search, no where in the rules or judges notes does it say anything about aggression, not until the hold and guard of course 

here is a link to a video of me teaching my current dog the blind search in 3 days.....






 


Frank


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Welcome Frank!! Diesel is amazing~Good luck at the Nationals!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Welcome Frank.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Mini blinds!! What a great idea!


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

schh3fh2 said:


> I would like to understand how exactly a dog searches a blind with aggression?



The dog should be *searching* the blinds for a helper, not just running around them. So if the dog is in the right state during the blind search, and expects to see a helper in the blind, he should be gearing up for a fight *before *he rounds each blind. In my experience dogs that are on the field looking for a fight at each blind tend to run the blinds more correctly and bark more immediately than those that are not. 

Mini-blinds are still blinds and are not what I'm talking about. I used them to teach my dogs the blinds too. From seeing your dogs and talking to you, I think that your dogs tend to be aggressive and seeking a fight. Do you think that a dog that is on the field in play drive might not be as motivated to go to the blind and confront a helper as a dog that seeks a fight? If he really dosen't want to confront the helper or sees the helper as another plaything, like a toy, might the dog be just as happy going around a trashcan for a toy as they would going to play with the helper? I have seen a lot of dogs recently running past the 6 blind then having to come back to hold the helper. Why do they do this? 

If running around a bunch of various and sundry things was optimum why did you buy a set of mini-blinds? Traffic cones, trees and trash cans are free.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

But "running blinds" in protection isn't and shouldn't be the same as training a dog to be directed out and around objects (that might happen to be blinds), at least not to me.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> But "running blinds" in protection isn't and shouldn't be the same as training a dog to be directed out and around objects (that might happen to be blinds), at least not to me.


Liesje, if you put a cone (or other object that you have your dog run around) 15 meters in front of you and put an empty blind 10 meters past that, do you think that you could send your dog past the cone and around the blind? How does the dog know what he is supposed to go around?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Fast said:


> Or maybe people *HAVE *done it, competed at a high level, saw the problems and are trying to save you a bit of heartache. :laugh:


Agree. There are all sorts of minor things that aren't a big deal at the club level, but can cost a point or manifest themselves as another issue at national level competition. At the club level the judge really wants to fairly pAss everyone. At the national level the judges is trying hard to find any flaw that he can take points for


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Fast said:


> The dog should be *searching* the blinds for a helper, not just running around them. So if the dog is in the right state during the blind search, and expects to see a helper in the blind, he should be gearing up for a fight *before *he rounds each blind. In my experience dogs that are on the field looking for a fight at each blind tend to run the blinds more correctly and bark more immediately than those that are not.
> 
> Mini-blinds are still blinds and are not what I'm talking about. I used them to teach my dogs the blinds too. From seeing your dogs and talking to you, I think that your dogs tend to be aggressive and seeking a fight. Do you think that a dog that is on the field in play drive might not be as motivated to go to the blind and confront a helper as a dog that seeks a fight? If he really dosen't want to confront the helper or sees the helper as another plaything, like a toy, might the dog be just as happy going around a trashcan for a toy as they would going to play with the helper? I have seen a lot of dogs recently running past the 6 blind then having to come back to hold the helper. Why do they do this?
> 
> If running around a bunch of various and sundry things was optimum why did you buy a set of mini-blinds? Traffic cones, trees and trash cans are free.


 
Hi fast


I tought Cayos with folding Chairs.... Had no problems.....The club bought a set of mini blinds for everyone to use after they saw Cayos's blind search, so I used them with Diesel.....What I do differently from most is I NEVER send my dog "around" blind 6...I teach them to run 5 blinds tight (he must loop back around) and fast and then the reward comes and if I send him to blind 6 then he KNOWS there is a helper there and he goes into THAT blind with power...This is also "teaching" ....once he knows the blind search, full field width, I don't do it for a toy anymore (unless I start to have a problem and need to back up) and I just run blinds during protection.... I will agree to disagree with you on a dog going into blind 1-5 with aggression, it's a SEARCH exercise, not a FIGHTING exercise and as a judge, I want to see the dog switch drives when he "finds" the helper, then he switches into fight and shows power and confidence in the guarding exercise.....You ask about why dogs go past the blind and run around...I have seen this too many times, but for me it is not one reason...There could be many reasons, from heart, avoidance, temperment to training mistakes......But I have followed this program for 3 dogs now (as well as many others in my club) and never had a problem, so I know for me...it works.....


Frank


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Agree. There are all sorts of minor things that aren't a big deal at the club level, but can cost a point or manifest themselves as another issue at national level competition. At the club level the judge really wants to fairly pAss everyone. At the national level the judges is trying hard to find any flaw that he can take points for


 
Done it at National events...,many (12 last 5 years) never a point deduction on blind search.....(point loss on control , yes :laugh:, blind search, NO)

Frank


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> Liesje, if you put a cone (or other object that you have your dog run around) 15 meters in front of you and put an empty blind 10 meters past that, do you think that you could send your dog past the cone and around the blind? How does the dog know what he is supposed to go around?


He wouldn't, but neither binds nor agility courses are setup like that so I don't train that scenario. I suppose one could train the dog to recognize different obstacles with verbal cues but I only train mine to go out and around what I point directly to. If we were training in the yard, the dog would probably choose the cone. If we were doing protection, he'd ignore the cone and choose the blind.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> Agree. There are all sorts of minor things that aren't a big deal at the club level, but can cost a point or manifest themselves as another issue at national level competition. At the club level the judge really wants to fairly pAss everyone. At the national level the judges is trying hard to find any flaw that he can take points for


So how exactly does teaching the dog to go out and follow directions negatively impact the blind search? What has been your experience/observations in the differences between dogs that can be directed out and around anything and those that have only ever seen blinds in the 1, 2,3,... order?

I've observed the opposite, actually (from a dog that has been in a national). The dog went around an A-frame instead of a blind, in trial. Personally I see that as a risk with a dog that has only ever seen blinds and hasn't been proofed with other objects. It seems to be that THIS dog is more likely to run around anything that is at or near where the blind normally is for him than a dog that has already been proofed with other stuff and actually checks where the handler is indicating.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

schh3fh2 said:


> Done it at National events...,many (12 last 5 years) never a point deduction on blind search.....(point loss on control , yes :laugh:, blind search, NO)
> 
> Frank


I was speaking in the general sense... And it isn't always a problem, just sometimes. Just as one dog may not be affected by ants during tracking where others will just refuse to track after a sting on the nose


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I was speaking in the general sense... And it isn't always a problem, just sometimes. Just as one dog may not be affected by ants during tracking where others will just refuse to track after a sting on the nose


 I undertsand you Hunterisgreat...sort of what my point has been all along.... there is more then one way to skin a cat and to completely disreguard a training metheod is kind of closed minded.......especially when others have used it successfully..... My head almost exploded the first time I saw the Belgians let the dogs drop the dumbbell and go threw their legs for a ball to increase speed, I had it drilled into me "the dog can never drop the dumbbell".... But after watching it, seeing how it works, seeing the results and understanding the prcess, I now use this with my young dog....

Frank


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

There are 10 thousand ways to train a behavior. ALL of them have something you'll have to balance in training with something else later on. I've never come across a "method" of teaching any behavior, where myself or someone else couldn't go, "hmmm, that could cause this problem later on" They all can. it's why we balance our training, and the balance is always different in every dog.

if you like what your'e doing, and have a good relationship with your dog, I really don't care how you do it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

schh3fh2 said:


> I undertsand you Hunterisgreat...sort of what my point has been all along.... there is more then one way to skin a cat and to completely disreguard a training metheod is kind of closed minded.......especially when others have used it successfully..... My head almost exploded the first time I saw the Belgians let the dogs drop the dumbbell and go threw their legs for a ball to increase speed, I had it drilled into me "the dog can never drop the dumbbell".... But after watching it, seeing how it works, seeing the results and understanding the prcess, I now use this with my young dog....
> 
> Frank


:thumbup:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

crackem said:


> There are 10 thousand ways to train a behavior. ALL of them have something you'll have to balance in training with something else later on. I've never come across a "method" of teaching any behavior, where myself or someone else couldn't go, "hmmm, that could cause this problem later on" They all can. it's why we balance our training, and the balance is always different in every dog.
> 
> if you like what your'e doing, and have a good relationship with your dog, I really don't care how you do it.


Exactly! For every dog that has a problem running blinds in protection because they were trained to be directed around objects in obedience there is a dog that has a problem running blinds in protection and could have benefited from being directed around objects in obedience. You certainly don't HAVE to do it, but it's a bit presumptuous to think that not doing it and not having problems means doing it would cause problems.

And like the OP said, it's FUN! My dogs LOVE doing it! It's rather silly to me but hey who am I to say what they can enjoy and what they can't? They are not robots; every single thing you train has potential for good and bad. I guess I do not have such a narrow focus with my training and am willing to take that risk, though I believe of all the risks to take in training, directing dogs to objects isn't really high on the list.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

All roads lead to rome


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> He wouldn't, but neither binds nor agility courses are setup like that so I don't train that scenario.


Crap happens. I have trialed with a tractor on the field, an tent blowing onto the field and desk 3 feet away from the blind. I know of a field that has the 1 blind up a hill and 15 meters past the tree line. In fact I have never seen or been in a trial where everything goes "by the book". If you depend on a schutzhund trial running as planned you are ripe for a world of disappointment.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Or goats bah-ing/ climbing the fence next to the trial field.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

If I had a helper available to train 2-3 times a week, I would prefer to train the "right way" with a helper always inside the blind, but since if lucky I can have a helper twice a month, I must advance as much as I can to use my time with the helper the best possible. 

So for me it is not a matter of right or wrong, but of priorities and possibilities. Some people will risk the chance of missing a blind, be it big or slim possibility because their priority is having fun with their dogs over places in the nationals, others look for alternatives to teach an exercise because in life the ideal and reality do not always match. I feel I'm both.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Catu said:


> So for me it is not a matter of right or wrong, but of priorities and possibilities. Some people will risk the chance of missing a blind, be it big or slim possibility because their priority is having fun with their dogs over places in the nationals, others look for alternatives to teach an exercise because in life the ideal and reality do not always match.


First I struggle to see how having fun training a dog and being in nationals have to be mutually exclusive and second, I do not see where training a dog to take direction when searching leads to missing blinds. Am I missing something in this thread? Have others had dogs skip blinds because they trained the dog to go out and around objects? To me it just seems like the opposite is just as if not more likely, a dog that has *only* ever seen blinds sees random stuff on the field near or at where a blind might be and goes around it instead.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> In fact I have never seen or been in a trial where everything goes "by the book". If you depend on a schutzhund trial running as planned you are ripe for a world of disappointment.


Who has? This is just a general statement no one is going to disagree with. But how does it specifically apply to training the dog to take direction as an obedience exercise? I guess I am giving my dog the benefit of the doubt that he understands the context. Obedience and fun is one thing, protection work is another. Heeling in obedience is not the same as heeling in protection, at least not for me. Likewise, a dog runs around objects as directed and does a blind search from different frames of mind. At least that is how I want it to be with my dogs. I can train my dogs to run out and around a million different things in any combination and do it for weeks and weeks but when we go out onto the protection field, send the dog around blind 5 to the helper in blind 6, and then try to do the same thing again, I assume all my dogs will make the same mistakes the first time. Putting the helper in the blind(s) changes the game to the dog.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I've seen so man dogs miss blinds it's not even funny, most were NOT trained to go out and around anything other than blinds. People might have an argument against sending them around a garbage can, if dogs that never saw anything but blinds ran blinds perfectly, but they don't. and it isn't even close.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Or goats bah-ing/ climbing the fence next to the trial field.


HaHaHa I know that field...In North Carolina


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Actually I think Jane is referring to Cheryl Carlson's place. I did a trial there a few years ago. There were goats about 20 feet away from the dogs doing the practical exercises (SDA trial). My dog had never seen goats before but it didn't effect her (we were not perfect but the goats were not the problem). There was also about 4 inches of water on certain parts of the field that day. IIRC that did cause problems for a few of the dogs doing the jump sequence.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Actually I think Jane is referring to Cheryl Carlson's place. I did a trial there a few years ago. There were goats about 20 feet away from the dogs doing the practical exercises (SDA trial). My dog had never seen goats before but it didn't effect her (we were not perfect but the goats were not the problem). There was also about 4 inches of water on certain parts of the field that day. IIRC that did cause problems for a few of the dogs doing the jump sequence.


Sounds exactly like Authur Collins field in Fayetteville NC...Goats right next to filed and floods in big rain....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Always a challenge! I fear when we trial in a month a freak blizzard will hit.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Not beyond possibility Jane! But I'm just hoping it was like the SDA trial, last Nov. 20. It was COLD but sunny and the tracking was about as good as I could have hoped for, still green and lush.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

this dog actually looks like he is "searching" the blinds....looking inside. Whether it be for a ball or a helper it gives the correct picture. 





 
To bad about the rest of the routine.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Did you notice that the current Bundessieger isn't checking the Blinds? 




This is from the LGA, you can see it perfectly when he's passing the blind right in front of the camera. He was not checking the Blind at all, just passing by. The dog itself is impressive and the work fantastic but he's not checking the Blinds.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Seems like it's up to the judge? I know some people view this as an obedience exercise, because the dog always knows where the helper is and is demonstrating control, but some people see it as the dog actually searching for the helper.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Seems like it's up to the judge? I know some people view this as an obedience exercise, because the dog always knows where the helper is and is demonstrating control, but some people see it as the dog actually searching for the helper.


I know at home the helpers always mixed it up for the dogs so the dogs never knew in which blind the helper was, so the dogs actively had to search for the helper.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

We do that too but in trial (and most of the time anyway), the dog knows. The amount of time we'd have to spend doing this to trick a dog every time...not worth it, especially if you can win the BSP without checking. I'd like the dogs to check and always think the helper is in every blind but of all the things to focus on in training, it's not a priority right now.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> We do that too but in trial (and most of the time anyway), the dog knows. The amount of time we'd have to spend doing this to trick a dog every time...not worth it, especially if you can win the BSP without checking. I'd like the dogs to check and always think the helper is in every blind but of all the things to focus on in training, it's not a priority right now.


True. Kind of sad that it went from a search to obedience... shouldn't be that way but I guess that is how times have changed.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> Have others had dogs skip blinds because they trained the dog to go out and around objects? To me it just seems like the opposite is just as if not more likely, a dog that has *only* ever seen blinds sees random stuff on the field near or at where a blind might be and goes around it instead.



Yes, others have had problems because they taught thier dog to run things other than blinds. I said it on my first post on this thread. Someone even posted a video of a dog, trained to run around objects, screwing up it's blind search.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

But how does one attribute a problem with a blind search in protection to a totally different exercise? I can share some videos of dogs who have never been trained to run around anything but blinds missing blinds, skipping blinds, or going around objects that aren't blinds... For every 10 dogs that mess it up, they were probably trained 10 different ways. Likewise for 10 dogs that do it perfect every time. So who is right and how do you determine the cause of the problem?

Personally I think regardless of how the blind search itself is trained, it needs to be proofed with random objects in the way. I think THAT is the mistake being made when dogs are running around stuff other than blinds. We do the same for retrieves, put the A-frame and jump almost touching and make dang sure the dog understands the exercise, going over and back, even if we accidentally throw the dumbbell off center so it's closer to the A-frame than the jump.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> Seems like it's up to the judge? I know some people view this as an obedience exercise, because the dog always knows where the helper is and is demonstrating control, but some people see it as the dog actually searching for the helper.


It's not up to the judge. It's up to the rules. 

Why can't it be both an obedience exercise and a real search for the helper? That's what I want. I want my dog to think that their is a helper to be fought in every blind that I send him to. Obedience while in the correct drive state is my goal.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Obedience while in the correct drive state is my goal.


Ahh, that is my goal as well. A goal that hopefully will be accomplished!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I went back and watched Sandra's video again (also she said the dog in the video was (*not* taught to run around cones, unless I misunderstood, so it's not really an example of using other objects effecting the blind search). My dogs have been worked in a dugout before, not sure what that dog ran around but it reminded me of a dugout. Maybe that's another factor...that lots of times we works dogs in new or unusual environments without your standard SchH blind. I would wager that doing this puts my dogs more at risk to miss a blind than the agility flatwork. A helper could be anywhere, not just in a blind.


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