# Puppies going to new homes prior to 8 weeks of age



## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm super curious to hear everyone opinion on this:

I understand in some states it is illegal for puppies to be rehomed (in any manner) prior to turning 8 weeks of age. My question is this:

What does the mother (and littermates) provide a puppy that a home which already has a dog cannot? (and please add any other comments/information you'd like to share too!)

I definitely understand NOT placing a puppy in a home prior to 8 weeks of age that does not have another dog already, unless extenuating circumstances apply, but what about placing a puppy in a home where there is a "puppy-friendly" dog (for lack of a better term) who can help teach bite inhibition and proper "doggy" behavior? 

I am obviously not a breeder, and far from an expert on this matter, but I really was curious to see the ensuing discussion from this question.

In my own case:

Dakota was a rescue I adopted at 8 weeks of age. The rescue organization I adopted her from saved her from death row at 6 weeks of age (no littermates, no mother, no backstory). She came to me dirty, underweight, with skin issues and an infection. I had to teach her EVERYTHING (she didn't even understand a play bow). Dakota is now an amazing dog. I can't even begin to describe what she means to me, or how she affects those she meets on a day-to-day basis. All I know is that I've never met another dog like her, and probably never will. She slept her first night in the crate without a peep...for 8 hours...and continued to do so from that point on. She is a quiet, laid back, sweet girl who is crazy intelligent and beautiful to boot.

Kaiser came to me at 6 weeks of age from a breeder. Yes, I'm pretty sure it was a BYB, but I've had him checked out by a vet and several GSD people and they are blown away by his temperament and personality already. I even had a few (one of which was a breeder herself) ask if they had any more puppies. The breeder caught herself and said "oh d***, they don't have papers, that's right. bummer." So yes, even though I don't have papers, and I brought him home early, he is leaps and bounds ahead of Dakota when she was his age. He is confident, curious, appears to have sound nerves (according to a breeder/trainer I met with), and a great temperament. We are strongly considering pursuing a BH (there is nobody near me that teaches bitework) and are going to start some foundation work with him soon to see how he does. 

At any rate, in theory both of my dogs were removed from their parents too early (one from awful circumstances, the other by choice). Dakota has been nothing but amazing to Kaiser since day 1, and I fully believe things would have been much harder without her. I'm excited to see how Kaiser matures, but so far, he has been nothing but amazing (save for a little howling during crate training the first week, lol). 

Pleeease keep this discussion civil


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Here's some sites with information that explains how to give our pups the best beginning in life, it's best to take advantage of all the mom and littermates can give.

Keep in mind, if the bitch is a fearful/neglectful mother, or the home they are in is lacking in the basic health/environmental details.... the best choice may be to get the puppy(s) out earlier than advised. But most bitches are very good moms, and the time spent with them and littermates can't be duplicated by we humans....

Puppy Development

Developmental Stages

A puppy learns important lessons from mom | All Dogs Academy | Puppy, These, Lessons, First, His

I think what we humans seem to forget is that as important as it is to get a puppy to learn to fit into our world of people. They are DOGS and also need to learn how to be dogs. That involves a huge set of communication skills and learning that has to be developed and the best/easiest time is when surrounded by it's loving dog family. 

NOT learning how to read new dogs/aggressive dogs/territorial dogs can really have us end up with either aggressive or fearful (or both) adult dogs cause they just learn to REACT when they see a dog coming due to all the attacks. Instead of having the knowledge to look at the oncoming dog and read what it's head/eyes/tail/body set it telling about their intent.

If you haven't purchased and watched the DVD Calming Signals by Turid Rugass than you have no idea all these pups/dogs have to learn! 

Calming Signals | Some Thoughts About Dogs

A puppy learns important lessons from mom | All Dogs Academy | Puppy, These, Lessons, First, His


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Oh, I'm not looking to learn about calming signals or other dog behaviors (I already learned that as I was researching dog behavior/training methods/nutrition, etc etc etc 6 years ago with Dakota). Though I do appreciate your comment  

I'm mostly curious as to why many people are so quick to say "oh that puppy went home to early" without knowing the pup's circumstances (even when its usually obvious at the forefront that the pup IS too young) and I've noticed is also rare to actually hear the other side of the argument. 

I'm not talking about people who have no experience with dogs, much less puppies, bringing home a new family member. Nor am I talking about BYBs who breed simply for money and push puppies out the door regardless of their age, health status, temperament, etc.

Yes, 8-12 weeks is optimal, but what circumstances would be deemed "acceptable in a worst case scenario" if the pup left earlier than 8 weeks? I was just looking for everyone's thoughts about what exactly makes a positive, enriching environment for a puppy, and if it can be provided outside of the parent's/siblings.

I suppose I'm not the best at collecting my thoughts on paper (or in this case, in type lol). I'm also surprised to see that there are so many views and yet hardly any responses. I wasn't trying to spark a fight, but rather collect opinions and experiences from knowledgeable "dog people"


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think there's a big difference between bringing a puppy home into a house with one adult dog, and leaving him in the litter with mom and brothers and sisters. One adult dog does not substitute for brothers and sisters and mom, and it's _really _unfair to the adult dog to ask him to do so. And of course we all know that having two puppies at the same time isn't the best choice. 

That said, I think there are degrees of gray in "too early." Contrary to most people, I don't think 7 weeks is too early. My pup came home at 7 weeks & 3 days. Naturally 4 or 5 weeks is worse than 6 1/2 weeks. 

I think the big thing about bringing a pup home "too early" isn't so much that it's life-alteringly detrimental to the pup, but that it lets me, you, and everybody else know exactly what kind of person bred this litter and makes you wonder what else the pup didn't get.


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## Dakotasmom23 (Jan 11, 2012)

Assuming the puppy has come from a great breeder, and the puppy is going to an enriching environment (like with existing stable, mature dogs) there are some groups (like Guide Dogs of America) who feel that 7 weeks is the optimal age to introduce to a new home. But prior to that I think not only are you getting into reducing puppies exposure to bite inhibition training in the litter, but it will be harder for a breeder to evaluate the temperament of the puppies and choose appropriate homes until after 6 weeks of age. Imho, its VERY hard for a mature, older dog to replicate the chaos and energy of a litter of puppies. Not only is the puppy learning how hard to bite, when to stop playing, reading dog behavior, but they are also learning to TOLERATE the same. Now, are you the puppy whisperer or did you win the lottery twice by defying the odds with 2 fantastic puppies? I don't know. But I do know there are MANY MANY MANY more stories that go the opposite direction. So since it certainly cannot hurt puppies to stay with their litter another 2 weeks, I see absolutely no reason to get in nature's way and would rather stack a deck in my favor.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> but what about placing a puppy in a home where there is a "puppy-friendly" dog (for lack of a better term) who can help teach bite inhibition and proper "doggy" behavior?


But how would you know that? How would you be sure that the adult in the house will discipline appropriately, and not give too much, or too little of a discipline for biting, for instance?

Puppies taken away from each other and mom at 6 weeks lose critical time learning proper dog etiquette. 
We did not know this when first doing rescue. We thought, "Oh, they are weaned and eating on their own" at 6 weeks so let them go. WA state doesn't have a law against it. 
The one thing we heard over and over with that litter is the puppy has no bite inhibition. 
Now, we know better and we leave puppies together (with or without mom) for 8 weeks. The last 2 weeks are most crucial. Puppies are learning to properly interact with one another and that carries over into all phases of their adult lives.
Bite inhibition is being developed now and will be maintained throughout live.

I have to say also, we get in puppies - a litter or a singleton, at 12 weeks or so. Dumped probably. Or a parvo surrender. 
And we can always tell the ones taken away from mom at 6 weeks or less. They're the ones with absolutely no bite inhibition or (often times) frustration tolerance.

Dogs have got to learn frustration tolerance and bite inhibition or they are much harder to deal with as they grow up.

Your puppy would have turned out the same in your home, you're right - since it had no littermates or mama to learn from.

Sometimes you can place a pup like this in with other puppies and get the same effect. But rarely does an adult dog make a good substitute for those critical foundation skills.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Dakotasmom I would love to say I'm the puppy whisperer (that made me smile) but I think it was a combination of things. Because Dakota was "MY" first dog (not a family dog) AND a rescue, I was hyper-anal about trying to do everything right with/for her. I did so much research I thought my eyes would cross and my brain would explode...and I learned SO much in the process, and I continue to learn new things each day. So I think that, combined with patience, soooo much patience, AND a puppy who had a great temperament to being with (once she realized she was in a safe, loving environment) was the recipe to success with Dakota. 

With Kaiser, I truly believe that even though he isn't papered/registered, he came from great parents and breeders who are positive advocates of the breed and don't care about the money (not that I'm trying to make excuses for them, because I wasn't happy to hear the parents weren't registered, but that's in the past now). Of course, he is still a puppy and has a lot of growing/maturing to do yet, but so far he just blows my mind (in a great way, of course). I'm able to take what I learned with Dakota over the last 6 years, and apply much of it to him. 

There is so much advanced training I know nothing about. And while I know a LOT about dog behavior, I'm certainly no behaviorist. And I know very little about breeding and the experiences puppies have prior to leaving their mom/litter (aside from what I've read).

I think you made a great point...that the puppies learn to tolerate what they dish out, so to speak  Dakota is incredibly gentle with Kaiser. Maybe too gentle, lol. He probably could have stood to have been gnawed on by a litter mate for a week longer, but he is learning "no" and "gentle" (we are a lot further along with "no"...but "gentle is coming along pretty well too).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I got both my males at 7 weeks and neither of them have ever put their teeth on me (other than playing/training and bad targeting mistakes). They were never mouthy with me or anyone, never ankle biters or pants rippers. They were both relatively easy, normal puppies. I like getting my puppies right away because I want to train them and socialize them to live in MY household. I have different rules and priorities than other people. For example I don't care if my dog do well with other dogs or not so I don't need them playing around with their litter for an extra 2-4 weeks.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Liesje, very interesting! I'd be super curious to hear your training methods/expectations!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Honestly most of it happens up front before I get the dog. I spend a lot of time, sometimes YEARS researching the lines I want and finding a breeder with what I want. So far, no surprises. Both my boys are basically what I wanted/expected to get.

My family and friends are not dog people but aside from allergies, they make exceptions for a cute little puppy. I can get away with taking a 7-9 week old puppy to Sunday family gatherings.

I'm a firm believer that a dog is his genetics. If I get a puppy that is genetically shy and nervous, then he's always going to fall back on that temperament regardless of training and socialization. That is why I do the research beforehand. My "socialization" is not really to attempt to control my dog's temperament or reactions, but just to test it, make sure I got what I thought I was getting and if not, properly adjust my expectations and how I will manage the dog in the future. I also like to show my dogs that we are always a team. I am their best friend and their protector. Instead of socializing my dogs to solicit attention from other people and dogs I'm basically showing them from day one to remain neutral to other people and dogs.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Very interesting line of thought. Do you have any sort of release word to allow them to interact with other people? Or are they strictly every-person neutral?

I suppose in a way it depends on what you want to do with the dogs versus just having a "pet". I think the general public just want a dog that sits, comes when called (most of the time), and can walk on a leash (loose isn't always even a consideration, I've noticed). I'm sure most of the people on this forum expect a little more out of their furkids. I know personally I do expect my dogs to behave appropriately (see: friendly, inviting...and yet alerting me when something is "off") when meeting people and animals out and about. I expect them to have sound nerves and temperament and to mind me when I ask them to do something. 

I'm excited to work with Kaiser though, as I would like to pursue some sports that require a level of concentration/focus/drive that Dakota didn't have (and will never have). I agree with you wholeheartedly that genetics are the foundation of a dog. Dakota has the personality of a golden retriever with a bit of aloof husky, but she's a GSDxcollie. While one might expect her to be drivey, she is far from it. She's not into fetching (unless I ask her to bring me something), she's not a herder, she's not ball-crazy (or anything crazy, really lol)...she's just the best "family pet" I could have ever asked for, without knowing what I was asking for (being that she was a rescue, I had no idea what I was getting). No matter how much training I do, she will never win an agility competition, she will never do bitework, she will never be able to track effectively, and she certainly will never be a flyball dog. I'm content to know that I simply have a best friend 

As for Kaiser...I have a feeling he is destined for great things


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No, it's not that formal. If someone walks up and is like "oooo puppy!!! Can I pet it?" I say "Sure!" and let them play. But a lot of people don't like dogs, or are in a hurry, or are wearing a nice outfit and don't want a filthy dog near them. I work at a college, so I take my puppies to work and they see all these people on the campus. About 2/3 of the people want nothing to do with a dog for various reasons, so the dog is learning to ignore people that are ignoring them. Both of my dogs like attention and I let people touch them and interact with them but if I walk away they follow me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Silly me! I thought this thread was about the detriments of taking puppies away from mom/siblings too early.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I know several competitors and/or breeders that want pups separated by 6-7 weeks. One reason I have been given is that really strong litters actually promote dog aggression if left together too long.

Back in the 80's when I volunteered with a humane society, all puppies and kittens were considered adoptable at 6 weeks.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Nikon was in a big litter and when he was 8 weeks I went to an event with the breeder so we put the remaining puppies (hers, Nikon, and a few that were being dropped off to their new homes) back into an expen and they would play but after a while it would escalate and then they would just get really snarky with each other. Nikon got bit on his ear and had a scar for a long time. Nothing really unusual or nasty, but I remember at the time wondering why so many people *insist* on keeping a litter together for an arbitrary period of time. There were kids at that event and I pointed out Nikon as the puppy wearing the leather collar and told them they could play with him all they wanted as long as they stayed near our tent. I don't have kids yet so having Nikon exposed to kids was far more important to me than messing around with his siblings.

As for how long to stay with the mother....I don't breed so I have no idea. Until they are weaned I would assume?


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

gagsd...very interesting also! Was there a formal study that resulted in the 8 week threshold for some states (my state isn't one of them so I'm curious about where the laws came from)? And for those who want the pups separated at 6-7weeks, are the competitors/breeders restricted to buying from states that do not have the law or are they simply asking the kennel to remove the puppy from the mom/litter but still work with it for the following 2 weeks (in home, for example) until it meets the minimum requirements for that state?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Kaiser2012 said:


> Oh, I'm not looking to learn about calming signals or other dog behaviors (I already learned that as I was researching dog behavior/training methods/nutrition, etc etc etc 6 years ago with Dakota). Though I do appreciate your comment


You may need to upgrade your research because things like 'calming signals' are exactly why pups need to stay with their litter.

These are the way DOGS COMMUNICATE WITH DOGS. So they can get along in the world full of other dogs. As well as they learn to look at other animals (humans) and read cues from them and their subsequent behaviors are BASED on this.

So if they are fearful, or aggressive or submissive or over react or FAIL to see something and cause an issue.

For me, I think that's important for my dogs. But if you don't see the value than that's fine too. :wub:


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Kaiser2012, I don't know. I really have not given it much thought.

I can say that my boys were viciously fighting at 7 weeks. I had never seen anything like it, as I truly thought puppies that young could not have "real" aggression.

I spoke to a Malinois breeder the other day who said that his pups would be placed as early as 6 weeks. This guy has raised and trained a lot of dogs successfully and thought 8 weeks as a limit was bunk.

HOWEVER...... not talking about "pet" dogs or "pet" homes here. Nor do I think it is a "good" idea. Just thoughts


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There is a reason(s) it's illegal in many states. I wish it was illegal here.
Those reasons outweigh someone's desire to "bond" with the puppy so want it earlier than later.
A puppy's immune system is just beginning to function on it's own at 5-6 weeks and that's also when puppy shots are typically being started. 
Puppies can become very ill very quickly (as you saw in the 1st post) when separated and thus, stressed at such a young age.

It is hard enough on them at 8 weeks and some people say 9 weeks is even better. 
Some breeders keep puppies together until 12 weeks (although that seems excessive to me).


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Never underestimate the ability of a solid adult dog to teach a puppy bite inhibition. Huxley recently began his "land shark" phase and while watching him play with my lab (2yo spay female with a bomb proof temperament) I noticed that she does the _exact same thing _people are told to do when the nipping/biting/gnawing get out of hand. She picks up a toy and shakes it in his face to get him to latch on and plays a quick game of tug. She will only allow so much bite play (hanging from the neck, face fighting, etc) before she does this and if he continues to be obnoxious she moves away and/or jumps up onto something he can't reach her from.

When I had shelties breeders preferred to send the pet puppies out at either 7 weeks or wait until 11 weeks. Had to do with timing around "fear periods."

I brought Huxley home a few days shy of 8 weeks. I have had no problems. He learned very quickly exactly how much mouthing people would tolerate, he puts Abby through more than he does his humans, and he is as social with people and other dogs as one would expect a GSD puppy to be- friendly, greets with a wagging tail, but no rush to meet&greet and he sticks pretty close to our family although he has shown no fear of exploring new places.

So I would say my opinion is 7 weeks is fine provided there are savvy people bringing the pup home to a setting with at least one other dog with a solid temperament in it or readily and safely available.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Never underestimate the ability of a solid adult dog to teach a puppy bite inhibition.


I don't, but finding that one in 10 dogs to do the job is tough. An adult usually does one of two things. Either over corrects or under corrects. Siblings do neither. Their "corrections" (yelping and moving away) teach the new puppy exactly how to inhibit their bites. An adult non-related dog will sometimes pin the puppy, or nip hard, or else be a chew toy - they usually don't just up and leave (like a sibling puppy would).



> So I would say my opinion is 7 weeks is fine provided there are savvy people bringing the pup home to a setting with at least one other dog with a solid temperament in it or readily and safely available.


We have done this in fact, but usually only if the puppy is a singleton or else if we have an odd number (3 for instance) of puppies from a litter and can send one away without harming the ones left behind.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Maggie I don't think its fair to assume I don't see the value in it. I fully believe in understand the signals dogs exhibit and properly interpreting them. My understanding however is that calming signals are mostly an innate behavior. YES, if puppies are left together long enough they will likely pick up some additional behaviors...from each other...but I know some litters are removed from the mom after 5ish weeks. If they only have access to mom a few times a day, is that really enough for them to learn? Isn't a learned (reliable) behavior one that has been repeated hundreds of times with the same outcome? How is bite inhibition or learning to "yawn" any different than "sit" or "come".

My Dakota, who came home to me at 8 weeks, who was rescued at 6 (and had NO contact with dogs in the two weeks in between due to quarantine), correctly displays "calming signals" without ever having been "taught". Also, interestingly enough, she had NO idea what a play bow was, or how to be a dog in general. She "learned" to read dogs as she matured, with patience and socialization with well-behaved dogs. 

Also, calming behaviors are not the only behaviors dogs exhibit to communicate, unless you consider showing teeth and raised hackles "calming behaviors". You mentioned several types of dogs too...so as an aside, poor breeding can cause unstable dogs who are overly submissive, high-strung, fearful, or overly aggressive...something that has nothing to do whether or not the puppies are left with their litters (IMO). If you have an unstable litter or a poor mother, the puppies may not learn the proper lessons you expect them to.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

GrammaD, this is what Dakota does with Kaiser. She allows him to be a puppy until he gets too rough. She plays with him, lets him gnaw on her, face-fights (lol I love this term), etc but when she's had a enough she gets up and walks away. If he bites too hard she will correct him. She is VERY gentle, so her sharp reaction startles him instead of hurts him, but it still gets the point across.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As far as the legality of selling a puppy less than 8 weeks, I think it's important to understand where those rules came from. They were not to protect the puppy but to stop mass distribution from certain sources and allow the state more control over supply and demand. These rules do not imply that it is best for a puppy to remain with the litter until 8 weeks. Many of the laws only apply to pet stores, dealers (who buy/sell for research), brokers, and commercial breeders.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Liesje said:


> As far as the legality of selling a puppy less than 8 weeks, I think it's important to understand where those rules came from. They were not to protect the puppy but to stop mass distribution from certain sources and allow the state more control over supply and demand. These rules do not imply that it is best for a puppy to remain with the litter until 8 weeks. Many of the laws only apply to pet stores, dealers (who buy/sell for research), brokers, and commercial breeders.


This is correct!


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

again, very interesting! thank you so much for your comments


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> They were not to protect the puppy but to stop mass distribution from certain sources and allow the state more control over supply and demand.


Interesting...so why the 8 week mark?? It is also illegal to transport (even in WA state) for commerce, any animal under 8 weeks of age.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Kaiser2012 said:


> Maggie I don't think its fair to assume I don't see the value in it.





> Oh, I'm not looking to learn about calming signals or other dog behaviors (I already learned that as I was researching dog behavior/training methods/nutrition, etc etc etc 6 years ago with Dakota). Though I do appreciate your comment


Perhaps your entirely dismissive post gave her that impression?
It seems you are looking for any support to your theory puppies are fine taken from mom/siblings at any age, and any post that disagrees is summarily ignored.

With that said, good luck in your search for...answers that agree with your theories.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Age to Sell Puppy Table


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> Interesting...so why the 8 week mark?? It is also illegal to transport (even in WA state) for commerce, any animal under 8 weeks of age.


No idea. It's not relevant in MI (only applies to pet stores, of which there are very few and far between that actually sell puppies, all the ones I go to just host adoption events for rescues) so I've never paid much attention to it. I tend to get my dogs when it works out for me and the breeder which so far has been about 7.5 weeks. I'm not going to make a huge scheduling conflict just for another arbitrary week. The puppies have already been separated from the mother and are starting to get on each others' nerves anyway.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

And now you are assuming I'm not open to other's opinions? I certainly am, as I thanked her for her post. My comment was simply meant to relate that I'd already researched those behaviors and I was not looking to read them again. In the context of my original post, and in reference to such behaviors, how can a well adjusted adult dog NOT teach these behaviors to a puppy? So the puppy learns some of these signs from mom...that means another dog could teach them as well.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> In the context of my original post, and in reference to such behaviors, how can a well adjusted adult dog NOT teach these behaviors to a puppy? So the puppy learns some of these signs from mom...that means another dog could teach them as well.


They may or may not. It depends on the dog in question. Unless I knew the new owner/their dog very very well and knew how the dog would respond to a puppy, I'd not chance it.

That's why I said 1 in 10 dogs may be able to assist in proper socialization of said puppy, many can't or won't.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

I do agree with you there. I really lucked out with Dakota. I tried to use "puppy-friendly" to describe such a dog, that 1 in 10 dog, but I suppose I should have been more descriptive. 

Again, I understand best case scenario is an attentive mother and littermates the puppy can learn from for a set period of time...8 weeks according to some states. I was really just looking for information about what can't be taught by a surrogate parent (a better term, maybe?).


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

One thing that people often don't think about is evaluation. The pups need to be old enough to be properly evaluated for temperament so that they can be matched with new owners appropriately. This can't be done at an early age, and takes time to accomplish.

49 days has long been held to be the optimum time for puppy testing and evaluation. It being when research has shown that pups are well developed mentally, about as much as a young pup can be, but before much environmental influence has been able to affect behavior. But, the original research done by Scott and Fuller that determined that magical 49th day as the correct time, was done primarily on Beagles. And we know large breeds mature slower than small breeds, even when young. Many large breed breeders prefer to wait until 8, or even 9, weeks before making final evaluations and have found through experience that 8-9 week evaluations tend to be more accurate and predictive than 7 week ones when dealing with larger breeds. 

So just another angle to consider in the "when to send a pup home" debate.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Chris, very interesting information! I think its definitely important to match a puppy to the proper home. Out of curiosity (since again, I'm not a breeder) how much can puppies vary from one to the other, personality wise, even if they come from lines carefully bred for a particular temperament and drive?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I was really just looking for information about what can't be taught by a surrogate parent (a better term, maybe?).


Well there's a lot to be said for that stable dog that can teach puppies things, but I honestly think that dog is few and far between and a lot would also depend on the home in question - so many people misinterpret or even totally ignore dog body language, and may not even handle the interactions properly.

I just see so many screwed up pups come in, and usually they were gotten too early from mama, when you get a 6-7 week old pup with parvo for instance, and when pup is healthy again you realize the pup has some issues that stem from being taken too early - lack of socialization being a huge issue we see, not to humans but to other dogs. They can't read or interpret body language from other dogs to them, and so are at risk for being bitten because they aren't properly submitting - that's just a for instance. Since some of these things can carry into adult life, it's pretty important.



> Many large breed breeders prefer to wait until 8, or even 9, weeks before making final evaluations and have found through experience that 8-9 week evaluations tend to be more accurate and predictive than 7 week ones when dealing with larger breeds.


I've also heard/read somewhere that because the mom releases eggs over a certain time, that it's possible for some of the puppies to be a week younger than other puppies within that same litter, and 9 weeks is recommended. I found that to be quite interesting and I forget where I found that information now.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As far as whether or not a single dog in a household can provide the same educational opportunities as a mother and littermates... I suppose it would ultimately depend on the individual dogs (and people) involved. Some mothers aren't good mothers. Some litters are small so there isn't as much opportunity for learning canine social behavior. Or have one pup who bullies the others constantly, or one pup who is constantly being bullied. In some of those situations perhaps yes, the new home and it's resident dog may be able to do a better job. But I would say that in most situations, with most dams and most litters, the answer is no and at least a portion of that key developmental time needs to be spent with dam and litter. 7 weeks would be the absolute earliest I would consider it appropriate to take a pup away from dam and litter, unless there is some extenuating circumstance. Personally I prefer 8-9 (partly for the evaluation reasons I mentioned in my previous post). 

Some people, particularly various performance and working people, believe that pups should be taken as early as 6 weeks in order for them to bond properly with people and that if left with the litter too long that they will become too "doggy" and not bond to people properly. And most of those types don't care a bit if the dog has proper dog social skills or can get along with other dogs. IMO, that's a bunch of baloney. If left together with the litter until 12 or more weeks old that *could* be a concern. But absolutely is not going to be in 8-9 weeks, unless the pups are completely unsocialized to people by the breeder.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

wow really? I know a litter can have different fathers, but different aged puppies within the same litter is super interesting (I studied zoology when I was in college and this never came up...I'd love to see the info if you can find it!)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well it was an article that had to do w/taking puppies and the proper age to do it! LOL (figures, huh?)

BTW we raised an orphan kitten, didn't have an adult cat for it to pal with, or even a sibling - that kitten, at 10-12 weeks or whatever we gave him to his new home at, had no bite inhibition _at all._ 
I can barely substitute for a pup, in teaching that, let alone a kitten! The new home had to work with him quite a bit.
Also I am told he acted almost "human" in some ways, and less like a cat.

Just kind of an interesting tidbit I wanted to toss in


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

msvette2u said:


> I've also heard/read somewhere that because the mom releases eggs over a certain time, that it's possible for some of the puppies to be a week younger than other puppies within that same litter, and 9 weeks is recommended. I found that to be quite interesting and I forget where I found that information now.


This is an old wives tale. 

Eggs are released over a period of a few hours (not several days) and they all mature at the same time and thus are fertilized at the same time. All pups in a litter are the same age, they weren't conceived days apart.

My guess on how this theory came about (no doubt before the understanding of canine reproduction was where it is today) is that it was used to explain why some pups are bigger and seemingly more developed than others at birth. We now know that those differences are due to which embroys got the best implant sites in the uterus, and which got the less ideal sites.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

OH thank you for that clarification! 
I wasn't sure how long it took for them to ovulate or the eggs released, or what. I'm definitely *not* a breeder 
I know from when I did breed rabbits years ago, though, the female does not ovulate until mating occurs which is why you can breed them any time of the year!




> _My guess on how this theory came about (no doubt before the understanding of canine reproduction was where it is today) is that it was used to explain why some pups are bigger and seemingly more developed than others at birth_. We now know that those differences are due to which embroys got the best implant sites in the uterus, and which got the less ideal sites.


I'm sure that had something to do with it.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

On the cat thing...I rescued mine off the street (she'd been shot several times with a pellet gun). She was approximately 1 year old and very timid. After about 2 weeks though she started to warm up to me (and Dakota)...and now I swear she acts more like a dog than a cat. She wants to snuggle, understands "no" and her name, and is very involved with everything I do. lol but thats for an entirely different forum, huh?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Kaiser2012 said:


> On the cat thing...I rescued mine off the street (she'd been shot several times with a pellet gun). She was approximately 1 year old and very timid. After about 2 weeks though she started to warm up to me (and Dakota)..*.and now I swear she acts more like a dog than a cat.* She wants to snuggle, understands "no" and her name, and is very involved with everything I do. lol but thats for an entirely different forum, huh?


Naw, still a dog forum  LOL




> Sysock says:
> February 12, 2012 at 2:28 am
> Hi, right now i’m waiting for my female dog to give birth, she is allready passed her due-date, but the vet says we have to wait, because there is an age difference in puppy’s, half the litter is passed due date, the other half is not due for another 3 days, how?
> It seems my female got pregnant on dec. eighth, but she and the male, he’s also my dog, have been mating 2 or 3 times after that, the last time on dec.fifthteen, so there could be even four different ages, according to the vet, she has to have an operation now, because the puppy’s that she got pregnant with on the eighth, are getting to big to be born the natural way, but getting them out now, would mean that some of them would die, because they haven’t fully developed yet, i’m just so scared that they will all die, if she, the vet, waits too long !!
> I haven’t been able to sleep or eat, but i guess she knows what’s she’s doing, right??


Apparently this myth is taking some time to die out...?
Can A Litter Of Puppies Have More Than One Father?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

That would be why breeders should get their education from vets who are canine reproductive specialists, not the same general practice vets that want to give 10 vaccinations every year, say feeding Ol' Roy is fine, etc......


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

I find this very interesting. My friend just got a pup from her friend that got a dog that was pregnant off CL and was never told the dog was pregnant. Crazy I know. The friend has a baby and did wanted the puppies out ASAP because she never wanted them in the first place. Anyways now my friend picked her pup up at 6weeks. 

The pup came over to meet my pack today. This pup loves people and kids was good with my dogs. My 1 year old shep who really really wanted to play and all the pup would do was roll over. Cookie tried her hardest to get the pup to play but he was not going too. The puppy wanted to play with my 3 year old daughter more then the other dogs. The little pup will be over more to socialize with my dogs. But this pup is an only dog. So we will see. 

I was wondering too why you should not separate them too early. My best cat ever was separated at 3 weeks from it's mom but still with other kittens. That was the best cat ever. But that's a cat. I am interested to hear what others thing on this topic.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> This is an old wives tale.
> 
> Eggs are released over a period of a few hours (not several days) and they all mature at the same time and thus are fertilized at the same time. All pups in a litter are the same age, they weren't conceived days apart.
> 
> My guess on how this theory came about (no doubt before the understanding of canine reproduction was where it is today) is that it was used to explain why some pups are bigger and seemingly more developed than others at birth. We now know that those differences are due to which embroys got the best implant sites in the uterus, and which got the less ideal sites.


So where would be the best implant site,and are the pups usually born in the order of horn placement? I see the mass spines all piled up on x-rays and wonder about this!


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