# no interest in training



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

I don’t know if this is an adolescent thing, or something that I’ve done wrong. I haven’t felt to great for the past week, so I haven’t done a ton of serious training with him - mainly just exposure.

I’ve noticed that Bailey (8mo) doesn’t have much of an interest in training recently. When we’re in the garden, he just wants to play. when we’re in the house, we don’t have a ton of space. and when we’re on our walks he just wants to sniff everything. 
His engagement isn’t bad, I wouldn’t say at least, and he’s usually good at listening to me, but it’s been meeting a bit of resistance recently. For example, if I tell him to “look at me” while we’re on a walk, he’ll do it for a quarter of a second before getting distracted and looking away which doesn’t even give me enough time to praise him. And if I tell him to do something while we’re in the garden (which is our usual training place), he just runs around and tries to pick up a ball or a stick.

I’ve also tried using toys instead of food to train him with, but he just stares at the toy, and drones me out. And by the time I am able to get him to listen to me, when I throw the toy he figures that the training is over. I’m not too sure what to do now?


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

There are a lot of videos that can help with training with play. I'm not good at explaining it and haven't saved any videos to share:-( A very simplistic description is the dog engages with "you with toy" not just the [email protected] or @Jax08 might have some links?


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

When something like this happens, it's a good time to ask yourself what's in it for the dog? 
Serious training? Doesn't even sound fun to me! In my view, training IS everything you do with your dog. And the most effective training is structured play!

So play with your dog! He's still learning, but now he's also having fun and engaging with you more fully! I integrate little bits of obedience into our games of fetch, asking for a sit or a down or a spin occassionally. And because she really wants me to throw the ball, she's really quite snappy in doing whatever it takes to get me to do it! Give it a try, and by all means lighten up and have some fun with your dog!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I guess I would need to see a video of your interaction with him. I would say a lack of attention is not atypical for an 8 months old. You need to develop the mindset of "work is play and play is work" ~Deb Zappia. they don't know the difference if it's fun and they have the drive to do it. It sounds like he's placing value on everything but you. Engagement is always the key. You can't train a dog that isn't looking at you. And if he's not looking at you - then his engagement is indeed bad at this moment. 

Engagement. Put him on a leash so he can't run away and get a stick which is self rewarding. More engagement interlaced with happy happy obedience. Remember that the energy you put in is the energy you'll get back. Teach him that the play is with you. The toy is just an extension of you.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> When something like this happens, it's a good time to ask yourself what's in it for the dog?
> Serious training? Doesn't even sound fun to me! In my view, training IS everything you do with your dog. And the most effective training is structured play!
> 
> So play with your dog! He's still learning, but now he's also having fun and engaging with you more fully! I integrate little bits of obedience into our games of fetch, asking for a sit or a down or a spin occassionally. And because she really wants me to throw the ball, she's really quite snappy in doing whatever it takes to get me to do it! Give it a try, and by all means lighten up and have some fun with your dog!


Thank you! By serious training, I just mean that I haven’t been doing any “real” training sessions. It’s always got some sort of play element to it. For example, a few months ago we’d do three minute training sessions going over what he knows and working on what he’s forgetting or refining somethings etc. But now, I can’t catch his attention for more than a minute. We play a lot in the house, in the garden, and on long-line in the park, but I guess we’ll just have to play more! 

I just feel like he used to enjoy our “serious” training before, and he liked doing tricks and all that stuff before. Now he still listens to all the usual stuff “don’t go in the road”, “don’t go out the door”, “leave the cats/birds/squirels” etc, but he doesn’t pay much attention to anything else.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Or maybe you play to much so he's already unloaded all his energy and focus and his age is playing a role as well. Try crating him for a few hours and then take him out to train. See if that makes a difference in his attention to you.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> I guess I would need to see a video of your interaction with him. I would say a lack of attention is not atypical for an 8 months old. You need to develop the mindset of "work is play and play is work" ~Deb Zappia. they don't know the difference if it's fun and they have the drive to do it. It sounds like he's placing value on everything but you. Engagement is always the key. You can't train a dog that isn't looking at you. And if he's not looking at you - then his engagement is indeed bad at this moment.
> 
> Engagement. Put him on a leash so he can't run away and get a stick which is self rewarding. More engagement interlaced with happy happy obedience. Remember that the energy you put in is the energy you'll get back. Teach him that the play is with you. The toy is just an extension of you.


Thank you! I have a video that I took earlier today, that I’ll post a link to in a minute. I guess we just need to play more while training?


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Just waiting for the video to upload now. He only pays attention to me if I’m running around, but if I stay still and ask him to do something (that I know he 100% knows) he won’t really do it.


----------



## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

I remember when Nadja was this age, she was such a butthead and had such a rebellious attitude, it was very frustrating but with persistence and patience we got over it.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

NadDog24 said:


> I remember when Nadja was this age, she was such a butthead and had such a rebellious attitude, it was very frustrating but with persistence and patience we got over it.


He’s a bit of a training butthead. He’s barely even listening to “sit” anymore 🙄
I’ll just have to keep working through it, and probably more long-line work 😅


----------



## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Do you train with toys?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You are about halfway there. He looks enthusiastic and he responds about half the time. He also responds when you are lively and animated. He needs to get to the point where he responds to a command no matter how upbeat you sound. He is not there yet. He also looks confused when he’s not responding. I’m not really sure what you are training him to do. I do crisp, clear obedience, work on one or two tasks, then give a release command and quit or give the release word and move into something else. I liked that once you said sit, he didn’t do it so you switched to down and he did it. Always make him do something even if you have to change the plan. End each command with a success.

What kind of training experience do you have? I suggest work on one or two things. If you want him to sit, then heel, work on that. If you want to teach recall, do that separately. You are getting close but you need a clear plan and he needs to understand exactly what you want him to do with each command you give.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

CeraDean said:


> Do you train with toys?


I try to sometimes. But he doesn’t pay any attention when a toy is around. I’ll see if I can find a video.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> You are about halfway there. He looks enthusiastic and he responds about half the time. He also responds when you are lively and animated. He needs to get to the point where he responds to a command no matter how upbeat you sound. He is not there yet. He also looks confused when he’s not responding. I’m not really sure what you are training him to do. I do crisp, clear obedience, work on one or two tasks, then give a release command and quit or give the release word and move into something else. I liked that once you said sit, he didn’t do it so you switched to down and he did it. Always make him do something even if you have to change the plan. End each command with a success.
> 
> What kind of training experience do you have? I suggest work on one or two things. If you want him to sit, then heel, work on that. If you want to teach recall, do that separately. You are getting close but you need a clear plan and he needs to understand exactly what you want him to do with each command you give.


Thank you! Yeah, when I’m running around and bouncing and all that, he’s usually happy to follow me, but won’t do it 100% if I just tell him to “down” etc. I was talking to my mum about how I don’t think he actually understand what I’m saying sometimes - but he can do it all separately?

I also have close to no training experience. I kinda have a chow chow, but he doesn’t have any real training (he’s my dads dog; but I don’t live with my dad anymore). I’ll work on giving 1-2 commands, and hopefully that helps. Thanks again x


----------



## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

A toy like a tug or ball on string (or two if you don’t have a good out) can make it easier for the dog to see you as the source of the fun. Toy on the ground is boring but toy in your hand is fun. 
If he’s hyped up to work and you’re paying him with food, he could consider it minimum wage.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

CeraDean said:


> A toy like a tug or ball on string (or two if you don’t have a good out) can make it easier for the dog to see you as the source of the fun. Toy on the ground is boring but toy in your hand is fun.
> If he’s hyped up to work and you’re paying him with food, he could consider it minimum wage.


Thank you! I’ve been meaning to get one with a longer rope so I’ll probably get one tomorrow and see if that helps. He had one when he was a really young puppy, before he even came home with me and he loved it so that might be a good idea.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It might help to take a class where a trainer can observe you and offer suggestions. You can also watch other people handle their dogs in real time. It’s not easy at first but when you are training, every movement must mean something. If you walk away from the dog it must be purposeful. All commands must be clear. If you want the dog to sit, you need to start standing right in front of him and reward intermittently every time he sits. He doesn’t “know” sit or he would do it every time. Training is a perishable skill. If he doesn’t respond, teach it again as if it was new.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> It might help to take a class where a trainer can observe you and offer suggestions. You can also watch other people handle their dogs in real time. It’s not easy at first but when you are training, every movement must mean something. If you walk away from the dog it must be purposeful. All commands must be clear. If you want the dog to sit, you need to start standing right in front of him and reward intermittently every time he sits. He doesn’t “know” sit or he would do it every time. Training is a perishable skill. If he doesn’t respond, teach it again as if it was new.


Thank you. Yes, we’re currently waiting for some trainers to get back to us. Mum has sent a few emails to some this weekend, so we’re just awaiting responses. We were refused from puppy training classes, as he’s dog-reactive (it’s getting better), so have to take 1-1 trainers. I don’t really think that he doesn’t know it though? I just feel like he’s not paying attention. But I’m probably wrong, so ignore me, just typing out loud.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Thanks for the video, it's always so much easier to tell what's going on by seeing it!

In order to train or even play and train the dog has to be engaged! Bailey is anything but! He's running up to you sometimes when you're moving away, but even that wasn't consistent.

So, a couple things to focus on. Motivation, if the dog is not fully engaged with you, you need to find a way to motivate that attention. If he likes food, use hot dog pieces or cheese or chicken bits, something he really likes. If it's with a toy he has to really want that toy! So find something he really likes!

Consistency, I lost count of how many times you said sit in that video, and it was hard to tell if you were using treats or a ball, but honestly, he didn't seem too excited by the ball (if that is what you were tossing around), so it's really not so rewarding for the dog.

If you want your dog to sit everytime you say sit, then you have to show him that! Don't say it multiple times, say it then enforce it if need be. Then release him. But always insist on him sitting!

I suggest for at least a bit, do all your training on leash, so you can enforce a command every time. And by enforce I don't mean with a correction or anything, just make I'm sit and reward that! Then release him.

The same with recall or any other command. If you have to tell him multiple times and you reward that, you're effectively teaching him to ignore you, so avoid doing that.

Once he's doing something pretty dependably, move on to something else so he's not getting bored. 

Sometimes less is more! Getting a few successful repetitions of a command is better than, 100 that are so so.

I totally agree that some of what you are going through is age related too! So again, up the motivation with something he really likes, follow through on every command you give, and don't give him an command if you can't enforce it. He'll shape up in no time!


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> Thanks for the video, it's always so much easier to tell what's going on by seeing it!
> 
> In order to train or even play and train the dog has to be engaged! Bailey is anything but! He's running up to you sometimes when you're moving away, but even that wasn't consistent.
> 
> ...


Thank you! He doesn’t have a great attention span, to anything. At least not recently. If you saw him two months ago, he was a ton better, nothing needed a second say. In this video I was using chicken hot dogs, sometimes I use cheese, other times waggs training treats, but he responds the same to all of them. I’m going to pick up a ball on a rope from the range tomorrow, so we’ll see if that works. I guess I’ll have to use my training line more often in the house too. Thanks a ton! We’ll keep working on it, and changing the method a bit too.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

What is his day like


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

One thing I would do too is only give him a treat when he complies on his own, if you have to enforce it just say "good boy" when he sits to let him know that's what you're after, but pay him more when he gets it right!

Again, it's all about motivation. If he wants a treat he has to work for it!


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Average day:

6am - he wakes up, and waits for my mum to get up. 
7am - mum wakes up
7.30 am - breakfast
9am - walk 
10:45ish - back home
11am - kennel and/or settle in classroom
1pm - lunch 
3pm - play/training/something
6pm - walk
6:30/7pm - back home 
8pm - dinner
Then he usually falls asleep at about 10/11pm.

we play a lot through out the day but it honestly depends. Each walk is about 4/6 miles. He’s not destructive, and not too bothersome, but he doesn’t get tired for a long time. He can sleep for twenty minutes after a two hour walk in the woods and then want to play again


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> One thing I would do too is only give him a treat when he complies on his own, if you have to enforce it just say "good boy" when he sits to let him know that's what you're after, but pay him more when he gets it right!
> 
> Again, it's all about motivation. If he wants a treat he has to work for it!


Thank you! Yeah, I’ll try it out xx


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I see a lot in that video. He doesn't understand the commands. You should be luring and helping him more until it's solid. Your tone of voice is all over the place. he responds better to the higher pitch. He's hearing a LOT of negatives. Instead of aha sit. stop talking and help him. You are killing your commands with repetition and no success. You tell him come come come and then you go to him. So much conflict. You thru out so many different commands in a short period of time and 95% of it was unsuccessful. 

So stop. Stop talking. Don't give another command until you are sure you he understands it and is doing it. make sure you seperate your "no's" from the command by 3 seconds. You are blurring it all together. Work on one command at a time. Not sit, down, find, come, dance like a monkey. Start with Sit. No more than 5 minutes. Keep your tone of voice UP and be happy. The energy you put in will be the energy you get out. Watch that video and you'll see exactly how he returned your energy,.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I agree with tim do everything on leash for a while. I would differ a little with, if I know that a dog knows a command and chooses to blow me off it gets a stern NO timed with a leash correction. The flip side is, when the dog listens to the commands he gets a big old YES and we celebrate. The celebration can be toned down gradually as the dog becomes more dependable. But teaching the dog that it can ignore you to go sniff the grass isn't gonna get the results you want.


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

You're getting some good advice but you've also been around here long enough to know that this age is a traditional butthead stage where they test you and try a mind of their own; they think they're a bid deal and test your leadership. I'm also not sure if the couple of walks he's getting and some play is near enough.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> agree with tim do everything on leash for a while. I would differ a little with, if I know that a dog knows a command and chooses to blow me off it gets a stern NO timed with a leash correction. The flip side is, when the dog listens to the commands he gets a big old YES and we celebrate.


I just didn't see a lot of understanding there, otherwise I'd agree! From my perspective it would be better to clarify the meaning of each command before doing any correcting.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> I see a lot in that video. He doesn't understand the commands. You should be luring and helping him more until it's solid. Your tone of voice is all over the place. he responds better to the higher pitch. He's hearing a LOT of negatives. Instead of aha sit. stop talking and help him. You are killing your commands with repetition and no success. You tell him come come come and then you go to him. So much conflict. You thru out so many different commands in a short period of time and 95% of it was unsuccessful.
> 
> So stop. Stop talking. Don't give another command until you are sure you he understands it and is doing it. make sure you seperate your "no's" from the command by 3 seconds. You are blurring it all together. Work on one command at a time. Not sit, down, find, come, dance like a monkey. Start with Sit. No more than 5 minutes. Keep your tone of voice UP and be happy. The energy you put in will be the energy you get out. Watch that video and you'll see exactly how he returned your energy,.


Thank you, yeah, I noticed that. I’ll work on that x


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

WNGD said:


> You're getting some good advice but you've also been around here long enough to know that this age is a traditional butthead stage where they test you and try a mind of their own; they think they're a bid deal and test your leadership. I'm also not sure if the couple of walks he's getting and some play is near enough.


Thank you. He’s usually pretty good with the routine. A few times a week we’ll go to a country park, and he can run partially-free on a long line, go swimming and wander about the woods. But if you have any recommendations I’m happy to try it out. I did go to read the “walking is not exercise” thread that was pinned, but it was more of an argument than advise.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I just didn't see a lot of understanding there, otherwise I'd agree! From my perspective it would be better to clarify the meaning of each command before doing any correcting.


I agree the dog looked confused and lacked a basis of understanding what was going on. But, just the act of him blowing me off would have gotten a leash correction. He would have to understand that if were working were working. 
That being said, OP you need to slow down. use a leash. Your dog understands about 1/2 of what you're asking it to do. The whole session was all over the place. Zero control. It really is not fair to correct a dog for not being able to follow along with that. Go back to basic foundation training. on leash, teach the dog to sit. Right now when the dog does sit it is because of your hand signals, he does not associate the word sit with sit. go back and work on that by itself. Same with the down, recall, heeling, basically everything you were trying to do should be done singularly. Slow on leash, say sit as you step into the dog, use your hand signal or a treat and lure into position. slight pressure on the leash if needed to get him into a sit position. Once you say sit he must sit. once he sits mark it with a yes then reward with food. Same with down, I usually don't train down until the dog is consistently sitting on command, then I'll give a sit command mark, pay/treat, then while the dog is still sitting i lure the dog into a down by running food down his chest to the floor coming outward while saying down. Once down mark and pay. Heeling or your middle, same thing slow it down, dogs on leash. lure into position. no steps until the dog goes to position consistently with just a verbal command. you may have to lure into position at first. work on the focus you want here, while stationary. Once dog is going to position and focusing then start off with just a couple steps nice and slow mark and pay. Everything on leash, trained independently. If you say it he must do it. You're recall is on a long line. let him walk out to the end of the line calmly say his name then come while pulling him to you. once there mark and pay. If you have someone else that lives with you find a high value treat. Make it a game where you each have treats. At first the dog knows you both have treats same room, take turns holding up treats while saying dogs name here, go back and forth, once dog knows the game you can add distance then eventually different rooms, random times, the dog should learn that every time you say his name and here that he is getting his absolute favorite treat. I use here instead of come which is your outside on leash command. Every time i say here the dog should run to you as fast as possible because he knows it's getting bacon or steak, whatever it loves. 

He is NOT allowed to wander off and sniff the ground, or pick up tree branches. training is training.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

cdwoodcox said:


> I agree the dog looked confused and lacked a basis of understanding what was going on. But, just the act of him blowing me off would have gotten a leash correction. He would have to understand that if were working were working.
> That being said, OP you need to slow down. use a leash. Your dog understands about 1/2 of what you're asking it to do. The whole session was all over the place. Zero control. It really is not fair to correct a dog for not being able to follow along with that. Go back to basic foundation training. on leash, teach the dog to sit. Right now when the dog does sit it is because of your hand signals, he does not associate the word sit with sit. go back and work on that by itself. Same with the down, recall, heeling, basically everything you were trying to do should be done singularly. Slow on leash, say sit as you step into the dog, use your hand signal or a treat and lure into position. slight pressure on the leash if needed to get him into a sit position. Once you say sit he must sit. once he sits mark it with a yes then reward with food. Same with down, I usually don't train down until the dog is consistently sitting on command, then I'll give a sit command mark, pay/treat, then while the dog is still sitting i lure the dog into a down by running food down his chest to the floor coming outward while saying down. Once down mark and pay. Heeling or your middle, same thing slow it down, dogs on leash. lure into position. no steps until the dog goes to position consistently with just a verbal command. you may have to lure into position at first. work on the focus you want here, while stationary. Once dog is going to position and focusing then start off with just a couple steps nice and slow mark and pay. Everything on leash, trained independently. If you say it he must do it. You're recall is on a long line. let him walk out to the end of the line calmly say his name then come while pulling him to you. once there mark and pay. If you have someone else that lives with you find a high value treat. Make it a game where you each have treats. At first the dog knows you both have treats same room, take turns holding up treats while saying dogs name here, go back and forth, once dog knows the game you can add distance then eventually different rooms, random times, the dog should learn that every time you say his name and here that he is getting his absolute favorite treat. I use here instead of come which is your outside on leash command. Every time i say here the dog should run to you as fast as possible because he knows it's getting bacon or steak, whatever it loves.
> 
> He is NOT allowed to wander off and sniff the ground, or pick up tree branches. training is training.


Thank you, yeah it seems we’ll be going back to basics. I don’t want to physically correct him if he doesn’t know what I’m talking about though.
I’ll try to get a video of a session trying out the tips this afternoon, or possibly tomorrow and see if it helps. We did a little bit earlier today, with one of the balls that we have already, but I’m going to the store today to get some that are on ropes. He did seem to be more interested in the ball than he was in the treats. And I’m going to try to slow down too. He does watch my hands more than he listens to me as well, when he understands the command. I’m going to go back and reteach all the commands, taking it slowly, and getting him to do it every time etc. Thanks for all the help and feel free to critique this video too, if you have any tips or if I’ve missed something. I’ll probably send another tomorrow when I have everything that I need (balls, toys, treats etc) 









Bailey {15/10/2021}







youtube.com


----------



## Barrie (Jul 5, 2021)

Baileyshuman said:


> Thank you, yeah it seems we’ll be going back to basics. I don’t want to physically correct him if he doesn’t know what I’m talking about though.
> I’ll try to get a video of a session trying out the tips this afternoon, or possibly tomorrow and see if it helps. We did a little bit earlier today, with one of the balls that we have already, but I’m going to the store today to get some that are on ropes. He did seem to be more interested in the ball than he was in the treats. And I’m going to try to slow down too. He does watch my hands more than he listens to me as well, when he understands the command. I’m going to go back and reteach all the commands, taking it slowly, and getting him to do it every time etc. Thanks for all the help and feel free to critique this video too, if you have any tips or if I’ve missed something. I’ll probably send another tomorrow when I have everything that I need (balls, toys, treats etc)
> 
> 
> ...


The toys, balls, and treats are your tools... but I can see you have already patience, commitment, and humility. They are essential skills, and not just in dog handling. I have a feeling you'll do fine.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

There are a lot of things that need a little tweaking, but I think you should concentrate on only a couple things at once.

First, your commands are more excited than your rewards. You are trying hard to motivate him with your voice, and I understand that, but things are going backwards here. Say your command in a normal tone, like you would on a normal day when you want your dog to sit, and then make the reward an event! YES, MOVEMENT, PLAY, TUG, MISSES... You can do this with food as well.

And second, I think you need to work on play with your dog. Whatever that means to him, so a tug, ball on string, fetch, whatever he likes. He should be super excited to play with you so you need to figure that out away from "formal" training.

Much of my training looks and feels like play to the dog. If they start to check out, I shake things up a bit. I'm looking for an active dog that pushes into me to play. They are just waiting for the opportunity to throw a behavior and start the game. This comes from rewarding play. 

Here is an example from ME.


----------



## Ohce (Jan 24, 2021)

Slightly different advice, particularly since you said he used to know the commands..

With my dog, when she went through the 'i don't care' stages, I reduced the total amount of training we were doing, but made the proofing we did do matter, and worked on the commands that matter. This is how I trained my friend's 'untrainable' terrier, too! 

For example - I use 'come' to start a walk. Don't come? No walk. We can try again in a few minutes. And sit to get a leash on. No sit? Leash gets hung up again. Want to keep walking after I asked for a sit and look at me at an intersection? Not until you sit at my side like I said. Want dinner? Then sit (and stay) and I will put your food bowl down. Leash off after a walk? Come, sit. I give the gift of time and let my dog figure out what I want rather than showing it again, pulling them, etc. 

I usually don't make my dogs do complicated obedience routines for this stuff, just ask for quick compliance to a single command. 

It's pretty easy to get in 15 repetitions in a day (or more) just by incorporating obedience into general life. Then when I do break out the ball or treats, it is special. 

When using food and play, I try to stop soon enough that my dog is still eager to work, before interest drops off. I want my dog begging me to keep going, rather than me trying to drag back my dog's attention. Maybe that's only 2-3 repetitions at first. But i think it makes a dog more eager the next time and I can slowly work on attention span. I never want to be boring. 

One thing I am working on with my own training is not to using the reward as a bribe. I try to only bring it out after success, instead of holding it while giving the command. I keep the ball or the treats in a waist bag, and often put the pouch behind me. Or use a bridge (like a click, or a yes) and go pick up the reward from a table 10-15 ft away. 

I watched the video David linked to when my dog was an annoying adolescent who wanted to blow me off and had very little food motivation and there was a huge improvement. Great video.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just as a general rule - at any point in the dog's career and training - if I have 3 unsuccessful commands in a row I go back to basics. If my dog blows a Sit more than once, and Seger did right before trial every single time, I take them back to foundation. There is zero point to continue the same thing over and over with no success. It will just shut the dog down. I think words matter. I don't look for "compliance" when I'm doing obedience. I look for Success. Does the dog understand and is the dog happy to do it? 

I'm two weeks out to trial for Faren. She decided that spitting hte dumbbell 5 feet from me and, when she does return, just standing in front of me is an option. I can't correct her for this. It will only make a mess. I need to figure out how to make her successful. Something in her brain is causing conflict. I need to erase the conflict and motivate her to be successful. I don't think dogs just doing pet obedience should be any different. Go back to foundation to make them successful.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

David Winners said:


> There are a lot of things that need a little tweaking, but I think you should concentrate on only a couple things at once.
> 
> First, your commands are more excited than your rewards. You are trying hard to motivate him with your voice, and I understand that, but things are going backwards here. Say your command in a normal tone, like you would on a normal day when you want your dog to sit, and then make the reward an event! YES, MOVEMENT, PLAY, TUG, MISSES... You can do this with food as well.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I appreciate it. I’ve just been out and got some toys on ropes, and things that I think he’ll probably enjoy. We do play a lot and he mostly just bounces around the garden, picking up sticks and trying to get me to play. I like the explanation that I’m trying to excite him with my voice rather then the reward, so I’ll try to work on that too.

I haven’t yet watched the video but I’ll do that soon


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Ohce said:


> Slightly different advice, particularly since you said he used to know the commands..
> 
> With my dog, when she went through the 'i don't care' stages, I reduced the total amount of training we were doing, but made the proofing we did do matter, and worked on the commands that matter. This is how I trained my friend's 'untrainable' terrier, too!
> 
> ...


Thank you. Yes, he will do a lot of that at home, he knows to sit so I can get his collar and harness on, and he’ll still wait at the door, things like that, as he knows - like what you were explaining - he gets something that he likes afterwards. I’m going to try out all the suggestions and see what works best for us.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> Just as a general rule - at any point in the dog's career and training - if I have 3 unsuccessful commands in a row I go back to basics. If my dog blows a Sit more than once, and Seger did right before trial every single time, I take them back to foundation. There is zero point to continue the same thing over and over with no success. It will just shut the dog down. I think words matter. I don't look for "compliance" when I'm doing obedience. I look for Success. Does the dog understand and is the dog happy to do it?
> 
> I'm two weeks out to trial for Faren. She decided that spitting hte dumbbell 5 feet from me and, when she does return, just standing in front of me is an option. I can't correct her for this. It will only make a mess. I need to figure out how to make her successful. Something in her brain is causing conflict. I need to erase the conflict and motivate her to be successful. I don't think dogs just doing pet obedience should be any different. Go back to foundation to make them successful.


Yeah that makes sense. We’ll work on it from the beginning, thank you. I hope the trial goes well (or went well, if you’ve done it already)


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If he follows commands indoors, do what works inside the house when you are outside. Try staying closer to the door and work on sit. I said above if he’s not sitting, he doesn’t know Sit. Others said the same. Now you say he does know it. So use what is working and teach him to do the same thing with distractions. The yard is quiet but there is more to see and smell. So keep working on basic commands getting further out into the yard until he can follow the command anywhere. If you mostly ask him to sit inside by the door, he may generalize to think the command only means sit by the door. You have to show him Sit means the same thing no matter where you and he are. He is only proofed on a command (always follows, never ignores) if he can do it anywhere, with or without distractions.

Work on focus too, eye contact, watching you for signals and commands.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think you need more energy and excitement in your rewards. I would use a toy, start the session with a little play to get him excited, then offer him help for the commands with luring and body cues. I’d also recommend rewarding more often instead of the longer chains of commands. I think he will do better with that feed back that he performed correctly.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

All good training advice here. I remember when WD was that age, I was embarrassed to call myself a trainer. By the time he was 1.5 years old, everything clicked into place and he became the dog I had in mind (most of the time). But then I lost him to deep fistulas. Enjoy your healthy dog and take it easy but consistent. Lots of play, mixed with impulse control, you happy and only one command. Prepare your mind before you are asking something from him first. If you are not sure, how can he be?


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Just as a general rule - at any point in the dog's career and training - if I have 3 unsuccessful commands in a row I go back to basics. If my dog blows a Sit more than once, and Seger did right before trial every single time, I take them back to foundation. There is zero point to continue the same thing over and over with no success. It will just shut the dog down. I think words matter. I don't look for "compliance" when I'm doing obedience. I look for Success. Does the dog understand and is the dog happy to do it?
> 
> I'm two weeks out to trial for Faren. She decided that spitting hte dumbbell 5 feet from me and, when she does return, just standing in front of me is an option. I can't correct her for this. It will only make a mess. I need to figure out how to make her successful. Something in her brain is causing conflict. I need to erase the conflict and motivate her to be successful. I don't think dogs just doing pet obedience should be any different. Go back to foundation to make them successful.


What have you been working on intensely in other areas? I agree that something is causing conflict that is making her spit the dumbbell. I would probably just go back and work on holding the dumb bell for food. It's always easier when you get to see the dog training and see what they're working on that may be contributing to the unwanted behavior. 
As a guess, have you been working a lot of outs in protection?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cdwoodcox said:


> What have you been working on intensely in other areas? I agree that something is causing conflict that is making her spit the dumbbell. I would probably just go back and work on holding the dumb bell for food. It's always easier when you get to see the dog training and see what they're working on that may be contributing to the unwanted behavior.
> As a guess, have you been working a lot of outs in protection?


Thanks but I wasn't asking for advice. I was just giving the OP an example. I have a pretty good handle on this. Let's keep the post about the OP's issue.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Just wanted to chime in on that second video, and say YEAH what an improvement you made! So definitely pat yourself on the back for being so open to change! Nice job!

You're going to see steady improvement from here on!!


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> If he follows commands indoors, do what works inside the house when you are outside. Try staying closer to the door and work on sit. I said above if he’s not sitting, he doesn’t know Sit. Others said the same. Now you say he does know it. So use what is working and teach him to do the same thing with distractions. The yard is quiet but there is more to see and smell. So keep working on basic commands getting further out into the yard until he can follow the command anywhere. If you mostly ask him to sit inside by the door, he may generalize to think the command only means sit by the door. You have to show him Sit means the same thing no matter where you and he are. He is only proofed on a command (always follows, never ignores) if he can do it anywhere, with or without distractions.
> 
> Work on focus too, eye contact, watching you for signals and commands.


Thank you. Yeah, he knows (or so I thought) quite a few commands that he can do easily in the house, with a verbal or physical cue, but once outside he has no interest in training almost at all. But, I’m going to keep working on it, and staying closer to the house as well, and not letting him have too much free reign. Thank you for all the help x


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> Just wanted to chime in on that second video, and say YEAH what an improvement you made! So definitely pat yourself on the back for being so open to change! Nice job!
> 
> You're going to see steady improvement from here on!!


Thank you!!


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> I think you need more energy and excitement in your rewards. I would use a toy, start the session with a little play to get him excited, then offer him help for the commands with luring and body cues. I’d also recommend rewarding more often instead of the longer chains of commands. I think he will do better with that feed back that he performed correctly.


Thank you! He ended up ruining the ball on a rope (which he loved!) in two minutes, so I’m going to have to find a more durable one, probably online. I also bought a clicker if that helps, but i know that I need to “charge” it first. More rewards sounds good too, and I’m sure he’ll be happy with it. We’ll keep going, slow and steady. Thanks a lot everyone.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Baileyshuman said:


> Thank you! He ended up ruining the ball on a rope (which he loved!) in two minutes, so I’m going to have to find a more durable one, probably online. I also bought a clicker if that helps, but i know that I need to “charge” it first. More rewards sounds good too, and I’m sure he’ll be happy with it. We’ll keep going, slow and steady. Thanks a lot everyone.


Both great ideas He was already looking better in that second video.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Before you have any dedicated training session you'll want to have a plan first. You need to know what you are hoping to achieve during this particular session (for example, duration of a sit, teach down), how you are planning to achieve it (delaying the click, luring with treats) and what to do if things are not going smoothly as expected (Plan B, super important). I would also very clearly mark the start and the end of the session. After the session you re-evaluate based on what you've seen and re-adjust for the future. Keep a journal if it can help. Also be prepared to do 90% of the work right now which means you have to be loaded with energy and give this energy to the dog, he will respond trust me, treats, toys etc are secondary.

Right now I only do separate sessions for Nosework, the obedience is incorporated into the day with a few quick repetitions all over the place mainly because lack of time. I'm working on the speed of the response to basic commands so only fast responses are marked and rewarded, for others he gets a 'Good boy'.


----------



## 44eyes (May 17, 2021)

Ahhh the “what’s in it for me?” stage of puppyhood. Toys and treats are good but remember too that you probably have all sorts of rewards around your house and built into his schedule. Practice sits and stays before opening doors, heeling in walkways throughout the home instead of barreling past you, practicing down before being allowed to hope on the couch, and leave it before being released for meals are just a few quick examples. Think of things your dog enjoys in his daily life. Is he getting those rewards for free, or worse, being rewarded for bad manners? Make a very quick training session out of those things and he’ll get more mental stimulation, more training, and will be more likely to respond because it’s stuff he already wants to do.

Sometimes dogs ignore commands due to the simple fact that we’ve reneged on the command so many times they are either a) confused or b) certain that they can get what they want whether they follow the command or not. It’s why some folks add voice commands last and/or don’t issue recall commands unless they are 100% sure the dog will run back to them. We have to make sure the dog knows what we mean, that we mean it, and that following the command is the only way to the reward.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

GSD07 said:


> Before you have any dedicated training session you'll want to have a plan first. You need to know what you are hoping to achieve during this particular session (for example, duration of a sit, teach down), how you are planning to achieve it (delaying the click, luring with treats) and what to do if things are not going smoothly as expected (Plan B, super important). I would also very clearly mark the start and the end of the session. After the session you re-evaluate based on what you've seen and re-adjust for the future. Keep a journal if it can help. Also be prepared to do 90% of the work right now which means you have to be loaded with energy and give this energy to the dog, he will respond trust me, treats, toys etc are secondary.
> 
> Right now I only do separate sessions for Nosework, the obedience is incorporated into the day with a few quick repetitions all over the place mainly because lack of time. I'm working on the speed of the response to basic commands so only fast responses are marked and rewarded, for others he gets a 'Good boy'.


Thank you! I’ll have to try that. Im a bit overloaded with information at the moment, so I’m going to try a few not too structured play-training sessions for now, going back to basics and reteaching him all the things that I know he knew well before, that he isn’t responding to too well at the moment. But I’ll definitely keep that in mind when I start to do more structured training eventually


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

44eyes said:


> Ahhh the “what’s in it for me?” stage of puppyhood. Toys and treats are good but remember too that you probably have all sorts of rewards around your house and built into his schedule. Practice sits and stays before opening doors, heeling in walkways throughout the home instead of barreling past you, practicing down before being allowed to hope on the couch, and leave it before being released for meals are just a few quick examples. Think of things your dog enjoys in his daily life. Is he getting those rewards for free, or worse, being rewarded for bad manners? Make a very quick training session out of those things and he’ll get more mental stimulation, more training, and will be more likely to respond because it’s stuff he already wants to do.
> 
> Sometimes dogs ignore commands due to the simple fact that we’ve reneged on the command so many times they are either a) confused or b) certain that they can get what they want whether they follow the command or not. It’s why some folks add voice commands last and/or don’t issue recall commands unless they are 100% sure the dog will run back to them. We have to make sure the dog knows what we mean, that we mean it, and that following the command is the only way to the reward.


Thank you! Yeah, he doesn’t get much for “free” in his daily life. He has to sit before going out the door, sit and wait before meals, he has to “ask” to go upstairs - he’ll look and wait for us to give a release command etc. We do get the best results when it’s something that he really wants, like running to try to catch things in the garden or being able to play with my cousins (all these things he needs “permission” to do). I think he’s mostly confused, but sometimes there is something better for him (like squirrels to chase).


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Thanks but I wasn't asking for advice. I was just giving the OP an example. I have a pretty good handle on this. Let's keep the post about the OP's issue.


No worries, it wasn't so much about giving advice. Just curious to hear how different training has an impact on other areas.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cdwoodcox said:


> No worries, it wasn't so much about giving advice. Just curious to hear how different training has an impact on other areas.


Ahhh...I'll send a PM later. It has nothing to do with other areas of training. 🙂


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Update: Bailey is doing a lot in terms of engagement I think. We went to the park, and I let him off on the long line (I know that’s kind of confusing) but we had lots of fun. lots of play and recall training. I didn’t have a ball or treats, so I had to be the fun 😅

this probably isn’t the best video to share as he was very bouncy and bitey, but my other video wouldn’t upload 








Playing with Bailey {4/2/22}







youtube.com


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Bouncy and bitey is a good thing! A happy and enthusiastic dog that enjoys working with you


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Baileyshuman said:


> Update: Bailey is doing a lot in terms of engagement I think. We went to the park, and I let him off on the long line (I know that’s kind of confusing) but we had lots of fun. lots of play and recall training. I didn’t have a ball or treats, so I had to be the fun 😅
> 
> this probably isn’t the best video to share as he was very bouncy and bitey, but my other video wouldn’t upload
> 
> ...


Looks like it was a good session. He looks happy and engaged. If you keep working him like this, he’ll be fantastic.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> Looks like it was a good session. He looks happy and engaged. If you keep working him like this, he’ll be fantastic.


Thank you! I really appreciate it. We’ve been working daily on engagement for about two weeks, playing different games and things similar (most of which I found on tiktok and YouTube 😅) but it seems to be going well. he’s been getting rewarded for eye contact and recall, and overall engagement every single time, even inside the house. He’s been following me everywhere and always watching me 🙈


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Baileyshuman said:


> Thank you! I really appreciate it. We’ve been working daily on engagement for about two weeks, playing different games and things similar (most of which I found on tiktok and YouTube 😅) but it seems to be going well. he’s been getting rewarded for eye contact and recall, and overall engagement every single time, even inside the house. He’s been following me everywhere and always watching me 🙈


It’s certainly paying off. He’s a happy, engaged dog with a good relationship with his handler in this video.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Looking great! You don’t need a ball or treats, any leaf 🍁 or any random thing available will work same way if the focus is on you.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Thank you! Watching back in the videos I took (I like to show them to my mum after 😂), I definitely still talk to him too much. Loads of incessant rambling 😅


----------



## EllaGrace (Jul 6, 2018)

The engagement definitely looks better in the last video. 

I have a few pointers in the video with the ball as the reward.
1. Make sure to say the release word before you throw the ball. So that the word is the release rather then the toy being thrown. 
2.If your working on sit and he keeps doing a down instead don’t ask for a down after the sit and then reward with the ball for the down. I think he was anticipating the down.
3. Also for engagement it helps if you have a cue to start and end a training session rather then rewarding engagement all the time. Otherwise they don’t know when they are training and when they aren’t.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

EllaGrace said:


> The engagement definitely looks better in the last video.
> 
> I have a few pointers in the video with the ball as the reward.
> 1. Make sure to say the release word before you throw the ball. So that the word is the release rather then the toy being thrown.
> ...


Thank you! I’ll definitely keep these in mind!


----------

