# Discipline During Training



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

I had avoided posting anything about this on here because i figured it would be regarded as inappropriate due to the vast belief on here about positive only reenforcement but then i came accross this quote



JKlatsky said:


> Dogs obey commands because they are conditioned to do it for a reward or to avoid a correction.


 
I have been disciplining Indie for a bit now. she is just under 6 months old and can leave it, sit, lay, stay (very well) shake left or right, roll over, and probably a few more that i am just forgetting. she can do all these commands under moderate distraction with either verbal commands or silent hand commands.

there was a time where i would tell her to do a command and she would sit there looking like she knew what i wanted but just didnt want to and was refusing so i started tapping her on the muzzle not real hard but enough to let her know i was unhappy she wasnt listening to me and almost overnight she started being VERY obediant. i also make a tssss noise when i do this and that has become the new NO and i can use it when loose lease walking when it looks like temptation is about to overcome her.

is this an appropriate training method? my dog is VERY obediant in anything but high distraction environments mostly other dogs, but she only really shows affection in the mornings and evenings. 

all of her training is done w/ either fetch or tug unless its a new trick then i use treats to just get the basics down.

how many other people on here use discipline as training tool?


----------



## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

JKlastsky's quote is correct. 

In behavioral terms, "reinforcement" (reward) is anything that causes a behavior to increase; "punishment" (correction) is anything that cause a behavior to decrease.

There are four ways to change a dog's behavior:

1. Give him something he wants (positive reinforcement)
2. Take away something he doesn't want (negative reinforcement)
3. Take away something he DOES want (negative punishment)
4. Give him something he doesn't want (positive punishment).

Note that "positive" and negative" mean adding or subtracting something to the dog's environment in this context.

"Punishment" and "negative" are emotionally charged words outside of the context of a formal discussion of the science of behavior, precisely because when done incorrectly, they leave an emotional residue that can adversely impact a training program. If too much "punishment" is used, and with bad timing, your dog may decide not to participate. At that point there is nothing that can be done about it except crank on the force, which isn't good for either the trainer or the dog. I don't think anyone here wants a dog that has to be forced to do something. Training your dog is supposed to be fun!

May I suggest reading Karen Pryor's book _Don't Shoot The Dog_? It explains all of this in more detail that I should go into here (the post would be too long, "punishing" those who don't like to read long posts :laugh: ).


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

Hunther's Dad said:


> JKlastsky's quote is correct.
> 
> In behavioral terms, "reinforcement" (reward) is anything that causes a behavior to increase; "punishment" (correction) is anything that cause a behavior to decrease.
> 
> ...


Not quite tracking if you are saying what i am doing is good or bad. after a sessions using this technique i vary rarely have to use it anymore, most of the time i just hold my finger out and she goes on with whatever command i had given her.


----------



## jimmy dalton (May 19, 2010)

what you have to ask yourself and it doesn't matter what others think. It seems as if you are asking alot from a puppy, but that doesn't matter if you the way you are training is motivating to the dog. Does she act scared- tuck tail, ears back, submissive postures? if not if your method is working then keep going, just use some type of reward after she does do what you ask even if you had tap her nose a little. Just remember she is very young so don't go too fast and there will be days that she will act as if she doesn't know any commands- those days just have fun and work on social skills. I hope this helps- by the way what is the end goal with her? pet, working, service? training methods depend on what your end goals are, thanks


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jacq said:


> I had avoided posting anything about this on here because i figured it would be regarded as inappropriate due to the vast belief on here about positive only reenforcement but then i came accross this quote
> 
> 
> there was a time where i would tell her to do a command and she would sit there looking like she knew what i wanted but just didnt want to and was refusing so *i started tapping her on the muzzle* not real hard but enough to let her know i was unhappy she wasnt listening to me and almost overnight she started being VERY obediant. i also make a tssss noise when i do this and that has become the new NO and i can use it when loose lease walking when it looks like temptation is about to overcome her.
> ...


One of the main problems people have with using positive training methods is they don't go to classes or read up on it or 'understand' it. Come When Called — Dog Training — Positive But Not Permissive



> aim is to help people understand their dogs' developmental, social and mental needs and build a relationship with their animals based on trust and cooperation. In CWC classes, you will learn to train your dog using a reward-based method, commonly called "positive reinforcement training." While this method relies on a clicker and food, it is by no means permissive. The dogs must earn the treats by performing a behavior successfully, and their owners must figure out how best to motivate their dogs with minimal handling.
> 
> World-famous animal trainer Bob Bailey likes to say, "The dog is always right," which means the burden of training is always on the trainer. In CWC classes, you will learn lots of ways to "stack the deck" when training – to make learning fun and effective – so your dog makes the right choice and everybody wins.


Are You Being Positive or Just Permissive? | Dog Obedience Training Blog


I have a HUGE problem with you muzzle tapping, great way to end up with a head shy dog that avoids our hands. I want my dog to LOVE being near me and my hands and choose to be near my and my hands so I can always put a leash on if needed. 

If your puppy (and you are dealing with a puppy) isn't 'obeying' it's not the positive method that is the problem. It's how you are using the method. This is a 6 month old puppy heeling and it has ONLY been taught with positive training:





 
I want my dogs to WANT to train and be with me. LOVE to train and be with me. Be JOYOUS to train and be with me.

Not cause they have to.

Not cause I will 'make' them.

Does this relationship building and TEACHING my pups to want to learn take more time than if I just 'make' them obey? YOU BET!!!!! 

But is it worth it in the end? YOU BET!

I train agility which ends up all off leash in the end. So we 'have' to teach them to love us and the training or they'll just leave the ring/yard/area as soon as the leash is off. OR slowly crawl thru a course cause they are afraid we will get angry. But THIS is what I want:



And I'm not going to get it by tapping her on the nose.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I did say that. And it is true. What I had in mind was a particular exercise, say for example the Sit. Generally once we have taught the dog the position and we feel confident that they understand it we have 2 ways to try and ensure the goal- quick compliance- a reward or a correction. In way one, you will present the reward work the dog up over the reward and issue the command. Hopefully the dog will eb so eager for the reward that the dog will sit quickly so as to be rewarded quickly. The other option is to say Sit, and issue a correction almost instantly. The idea being that the next time the dog will sit more quickly to avoid the correction. 

The question ends up being not so much whether or not what you are doing is correct, but if you understand what you are actually doing, if it meets the goals you have, matches the temperament of your dog, and is effective.

Someone once told me that a dog only has so many corrections in it's lifetime before they become ineffective and stop working. Someone also once explained forced tracking to me and pointed out that once the training was done that there was a window for accomplishing titles where the training would hold. Once the window was gone, you had to go back to the force again. Compulsively trained dogs can be very effective workers and seem to "get" things more quickly, however as a personal observation those dogs do not continue to work at a high level for a long time. I like this article to explain some of the different types of corrections you can give.
Leerburg | The Theory of Corrections in Dog Training

Dogs that are more motivational trained seem to take longer to train, but seem to work better for longer. Motivational dogs generally show more drive for their work. It's harder to mess up your dog. They have been taught to reason out the commands and make choices about obeying. Not to say that there are not still consequences- but in this method you will more often see non-reward as a consequence as opposed to a physical correction. 

To me (and i am not opposed to corrections) 6 months is young to be having many physical corrections so I certainly would not overdo it. I also agre with MRL that muzzle tapping can create a head shy dog. Dogs work to avoid corrections- that's why we use them, so what are you going to do when she ducks your hand? Also terming it "discipline" to me gives the wrong impression. Discipline implies that there is some kind of willful behavior going on where they are knowingly being defiant. At that age they are young and you want them to maintain enthusiasm for learning. And this is where your knowledge of your dog and canine behavior comes in. It's not just the compliance to the commands that matters. It's the attitude and how you partner it with reward. So I guess in the end we go back to the beginning and do you think it's good?? For me, I'd give it some more thought.


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

All good input and is appreciated. she doesnt duck at all and is not shy towards strangers in any way shape or form. brought her to the firehouse and took her off a leash in a sit/stay then told her to go say hi to the other fireman and she sprinted to them. maybe i didnt explain it all that well i dont know, i started out w/ a couple of taps to the muzzle but no just holding my finger out gets to to focus on what the command was. she is a very mellow dog but i use mostly play as a positive reward, i would say i am 99 percent positive w/ the occasional pointing of my finger or touching the muzzle as a correction. for the life of me i cannot remember a single day where she hasnt been very obediant provided the level of distraction. maybe ill try and learn to put a vid on youtube to show her off. she is definatly not showing any lack of determination to train and it seems as if she enjoys it. 

i didnt really expect the responce that i got... since it was SO effective and there are no noticable detriments to what i do i just assumed that others out there do the same thing.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Dogs that are more motivational trained seem to take longer to train, but seem to work better for longer. Motivational dogs generally show more drive for their work. It's harder to mess up your dog. They have been taught to reason out the commands and make choices about obeying. Not to say that there are not still consequences- but in this method you will more often see non-reward as a consequence as opposed to a physical correction.


THAT is extremely well put! :thumbup:


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jacq said:


> .......she doesnt duck at all and is not shy towards strangers in any way shape or form.
> 
> i didnt really expect the response that i got... since it was SO effective and there are no noticable detriments to what i do i just assumed that others out there do the same thing.


Of course what you are doing is effective. All our dogs will try to do things right and corrections do work. 

If all you want is the end behavior, your method is the one used for the past hundreds of years to train dogs (animals). IT'S THE WAY I TRAINED MY FIRST DOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:wub:

But that was 15 years ago and 3 dogs ago. And now I know better and that dog training (animal training) has really changed and much better. Ya wanna know why?

Cause now classes with the 'new' motivational training are about training US!!!! Punishment (tapping our dogs nose) and corrections are easy no brainers for anyone to use. But positive training methods mean WE need to think and learn about dogs and we need to think and learn what can we do to motivate our dogs so they WANT to listen learn and obey. Rather than HAVE to listen learn and obey.

Figuring out that, the 'getting a dog to want' to willingly learn, listen and obey us is HARD!!!! We have to learn it. It takes time. And the burden is now switched onto our 'plate'. Because once WE learn the new way, it's freaking AMAZING what type of dog we end up with. 

So you are 100% right that your way is working (for now). But it's the long term bonding and working relationship that you are giving up in the long term. For a short term goal of 'obedience'. 

The positive way really does work. REALLY. It just means that we have to do the work and learn something completely new and not as easy as the corrections.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Another great video!


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

Its definatly Positive training. usings play as the reward almost all the time. i dont think she would do ANY tricks at all if she didnt get a reward afterward, and wouldnt have half the intesnity that she has now if i didnt use play as the currency. and i dont muzzle tap when she is learning something new, only when she is refusing to do something she already knows, like sit before she goes outside.


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Another great video!
> 
> YouTube - 9 Habits of Effective Clicker Trainers Part 1 Using Rewards


 
Indie is VERY VERY familiar with the clicker and she loves it because it means either treats/tug, or a ball is about to go flying.


----------



## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

I have to agree with the others about the muzzle tap. Just because she's not hand-shy NOW doesn't mean that she won't develop it when she's older when she decides suddenly she doesn't want to take any of that guff from you anymore. At six months she is still just a baby, and has a ways to go before she matures fully. Many people here begin experiencing defiance and bratty behavior from their dogs between 1 - 2 years of age, widely known as the "butt-head stage." 

A much more effective correction would be verbal - a sharp eh-eh! for example. Our dogs work to please us, and the disappointment in my voice is more effective discipline than anything physical. A leash pop would also work depending on the situation, though I find that I rarely have to use anything more than a verbal correction.

It's not always necessary to administer positive punishment to discipline your dog. Say your dog doesn't sit before she goes outside. Assuming that your dog enjoys going outside, if she doesn't sit, instead of giving her a muzzle tap (positive punishment), just walk away (negative punishment) - if she doesn't sit then she doesn't go outside. The quicker she sits, the quicker she'll be let out. You do this a few times, and she'll realize that the way to get what SHE wants is by doing what YOU ask. This is the basic principle behind NILIF.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Virginia said:


> It's not always necessary to administer positive punishment to discipline your dog. Say your dog doesn't sit before she goes outside. Assuming that your dog enjoys going outside, if she doesn't sit, instead of giving her a muzzle tap (positive punishment), just walk away (negative punishment) - if she doesn't sit then she doesn't go outside. The quicker she sits, the quicker she'll be let out. You do this a few times, and she'll realize that the way to get what SHE wants is by doing what YOU ask. This is the basic principle behind NILIF.


I agree, and at 6 months old, this is a much better way of training. Save corrections for wilful disobedience of learned (and fully generalized) commands. As usual, great posts by MaggieRoseLee and JKlatsky.


----------



## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

A lot of great info and advice but my main concern would be when did you start your correction method because I feel it's fine to teach a puppy "under 6 months old" as much as you like as long as you keep it short "like 5-10 minutes" and keep it fun. Expecting to much from a 3-5 month old puppy doesn't allow them to become who they really are because they are always being corrected. I hope I said that right.
I teach my puppy but only if they are willing and always end on a positive. If I feel they are just not up to it that day it's no big deal. Lets face it puppys get fevers from teething so I just like them to bond and be puppys and the training will come later.
So the correction and tapping on the nose at such a young age worries me.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Zayda, well put!


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

ZAYDA said:


> my main concern would be when did you start your correction method .


You start it when you are 100% sure the dog knows the command and has chosen to ignore it. If there is the slightest doubt in your mind that the dog has not fully learned the command don't correct it. These are the principles I work by regardless of the dogs age.


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

HMV said:


> You start it when you are 100% sure the dog knows the command and has chosen to ignore it. If there is the slightest doubt in your mind that the dog has not fully learned the command don't correct it. These are the principles I work by regardless of the dogs age.


 
Definatly only do it when she knows the command 100 percent and is choosing to ignore it.... 

I am assuming that everyone posting in this thread thus far doesnt believe in spanking a child either?

example, your child picks up a candy bar in a store, you tell her NO, she refused to put it back, you tell her no a few more times... she KNOWS what she is supposed to do but is blatantly refusing... if aftertime she finally does put it back do you just buy it for her to reward her for putting it back? no. after a few requests you give her a slight swat on the tush and next time when you tell her to put it back she does.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It really is not about positive training versus punishment or correction. I am amazed that there are not a lot of positive trainers on this website. It is in fact loaded with balanced trainers, from my experience. 

The approaches discussed are not at all coming from a bias against correction. They instead come from an understanding of dog training and the development of the training relationship. This relationship develops over time, with a foundation being built while the young pup matures to adult hood. I don't see positive training bias here much at all. Experience is a great teacher in how to create balance in dog training. I am pragmatic as heck, and do not ascribe to methods based on a philosophy but rather on what works well in the long run. 

Of course, one's goals for the dog and dog/trainer relationship make a big difference in how the traing progression is approached.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Well I haven't posted in this thread but no I don't believe in spanking a child. If my child wasn't listening to me in the store we would leave the store and if she couldn't listen we would not go back until she did Think there are lots of ways to set limits and discipline without spanking when I was a child the rule was I was not even allowed to ask for something when I went in the store and if I did I didn't get it


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It can have more meaningful and lasting results to not use corporal punishment. It might "work" in the short run, but often opportunity for a broader basis of learning is missed.


----------



## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Jacq said:


> Not quite tracking if you are saying what i am doing is good or bad. after a sessions using this technique i vary rarely have to use it anymore, most of the time i just hold my finger out and she goes on with whatever command i had given her.


Sorry for the confusion. Other posters have chimed in since I replied, and have explained it well. To clarify my original post, only use a compulsive method as a last resort, when not doing it could mean physical harm to your dog. For example, your dog is running toward the street while on leash, and a car is coming. You say "Down!" and the dog doesn't stop. Feel free to plant your feet and stop your dog from running in front of the car. 

Other than that kind of situation, you'll get better results if you figure out a way to make your dog like what you're asking her to do.


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

Leaving the topic of child abuse and returning to the subject of dog correction.

It is no good asking anybody how you should correct a dog, they can only advise you on methods of correction. First you have to know your own dog, then you have to know what level of enthusiasm the dog happens to be in at the time he needs correcting. Someone may suggests putting a prong collar on him and giving it a good swift pull. It may be that their dog happens to be built like Mike Tyson and as stubborn as a mule A good sharp pull on a prong collar was probably just right for that dog to think "holy crap I better start listening" if however, your dog is more like Mr Bean a good swift pull on a prong collar may scare the poor thing for life. So firstly find out what kind of correction is appropriate for your dog to to have a desired effect. The more enthusiasm or energetic the dog is at the time of correction the stronger the correction will have to be, this all comes with time and experience.


----------



## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

What age puppies are we speaking of?


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

HMV- :thumbup:

I firmly believe that corrections are part of a well balanced training program. They have their places and their uses. There are a million different tools to administer a correction. I have used prong collars, flat collars, e-collars, my voice, and at times my hands. 

However I have to say that I am very skeptical of a 6 month old puppy actually "knowing" anything. We have to keep in mind that dogs are EXTREMELY situational. What he knows in the kitchen he does not know outside. If your dog is ignoring a command that he has previously done correctly and been rewarded for at least 30 times...I am not against you issueing a correction, what I take issue with is the form that the correction takes. Corrections should be fair and they should have a purpose beyond punishment. Most of the physical corrections I give are directional and reinforce the command that was given. I am not sure how a tap on the muzzle is a clear correction. Put a leash and collar on the dog.

Also in your example of sitting at the door. I would simply stand there and wait her out. The INSTANT her butt touched the ground you should be using some kind of marker to indicate correct behavior and opening the door as her reward. If you want to put it in context of kids...You have 2 choices. DO it my way or don't do it at all. Much better than do it my way or get a spanking and still do it my way.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Samba said:


> The approaches discussed are not at all coming from a bias against correction. They instead come from an understanding of dog training and the development of the training relationship. This relationship develops over time, with a foundation being built while the young pup matures to adult hood. I don't see positive training bias here much at all. Experience is a great teacher in how to create balance in dog training. I am pragmatic as heck, and do not ascribe to methods based on a philosophy but rather on what works well in the long run.
> 
> Of course, one's goals for the dog and dog/trainer relationship make a big difference in how the traing progression is approached.


:THUMBUP: One thing that's a bit misleading in this discussion is the title of this thread in regards to the word "discipline" - it implies that those of us that use as few physical corrections as possible do not believe in discipline, which is simply not true. As MRL pointed out, "positive" does not mean permissive. 

I use discipline on my dogs from the time they come home as young puppies. But that does not mean I'm bopping them on the nose! Providing rules and structure to a dog's life is discipline, even if it's not the slightest bit physical. Any time you have consequences for a dog's decision to either comply or not comply you're providing discipline. As Virginia pointed out, sometimes that just means the dog does not get access to valued resources at that particular moment.


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

Bopping her on the nose? Not hardly. try resting your hand on the desk and and lifting your point up leaving the rest of your hand on the desk and bring the finger down w/ about 50 percent more pressure than just letting gravity take over... its definatly not anything that causes her to jerk her head back or anything.... we are way rougher when we play tug than anything else... 

it almost seems to me like indie is a bit further along for her age than what some on here believe... she is most definatly a well trained dog and takes to training very well... we do use the NILIF techniques on almost everything including getting a fresh bowl of water... every game turns into a NILIF training session, and she listens extremly well... i give some credit to her listening so well to the fact that i have taught her to listen to every command. sometimes i have to repeat myself but not very often. I wont have my dog back until sunday night but i will try and get a video shot of how well she is doing and post it on here... its not like i am struggling with training her and smacking her nose out of frustration... rather she knows the commands extremely well and sometimes doesnt listen. if i wanted to, i could probably teach her to spin around and she would have it indoors in a low distraction environment with either hand or verbal commands in less than 30 minutes garenteed. after a week or two of always listening to me in this environment if i give the command and she looks at me with the i hear you but i dont want to look i would (theoretically at this point) hold my finger towards her nose and it would be almost garenteed she would spin on the next command and be praised or treated accordingly depending on what the currency of the time is. If its causing anything negative i definatly dont see any of it at this time.

whats a good way to measure training progress for a dogs age? the ONLY mandatory thing she hasnt been taught yet thats on the top of the list is a STOP command which must be done on the leash training with two people. maybe not MUST, but the way i plan on teaching it will require it. other than that i could easily put her in a lay/stay in the middle of the front yard and as long she knows i havent left her completely (either sees me or hears me) she would easily maintain that stay for 30 minutes. and thats w/out any discipline at all.


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

Speaking of which for the hand cue on STOP... would it be bad to use the same hand cue that i use for stay? hand up palms open and extended? i mean if i am telling her to stop i probably want her to stay where she is at also until i either release or recall her right?


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I think I would teach an emergency platz as opposed to a separate stop command, because stop is sort of vague. I mean how would you define a Stop as an action rather than as a non-action? 

If my dog was running towards the street I could Yell Platz and he would drop. It would be similar in function to the Platz on the Voraus. Regardless, it's a fairly advanced exercise. 

No one is trashing your puppy, I'm sure she is a smart one, but I think you should be careful. Pushing too much obedience training too quickly can easily kill the drive your pup has to please you and that could really backfire when she hits the PITA phase later on down the road. 

You asked if we thought this particular training method was appropriate and you were answered. In general I would say people do not have a problem with consequences but that using your finger to reprimand her on the nose is generally not considered the best method for accomplishing your task. It's usually preferred to use an intermediary tool such as a leash and collar. There's really no need to get so defensive. You also asked if anyone else used discipline when training. I think you also got the answer to that question, Many do but not with puppies. It is an excellent topic for discussion and I'm glad you brought it up. Corrections in training are often misunderstood and inappropriately applied which is part of why "purely positive training" has taken over. Hard to hurt or mess up your dog with treats and a clicker. And take it from someone who was perhaps a little more old school in training their first dog...It makes a difference. Avoiding corrections in the beginning of any kind and teaching through markers and non-rewards creates a much more willing and thinking dog.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

jakeandrenee said:


> What age puppies are we speaking of?


*The original poster stated it was just a young puppy, under 6 months old.*

Though I'm all about prong collars and even use a (brace yourself) e-collar when needed........... it's NOT in the situations described for a 6 month old puppy.

So while I'm posting all about positive training, and that is ABSOLUTELY what I'd be using in your situation for this puppy, it's NOT because I don't also believe in using other methods when necessary.

Frankly, I will never agree that popping my pup on the face to get it's attention is a good idea in a training session.



> You also asked if anyone else used discipline when training. I think you also got the answer to that question, Many do but not with puppies. It is an excellent topic for discussion and I'm glad you brought it up. Corrections in training are often misunderstood and inappropriately applied which is part of why "purely positive training" has taken over. Hard to hurt or mess up your dog with treats and a clicker. *And take it from someone who was perhaps a little more old school in training their first dog...It makes a difference.* Avoiding corrections in the beginning of any kind and teaching through markers and non-rewards creates a much more willing and thinking dog.


That is all VERY well put and as I stated before, with MY first dog I also didn't know any better. Corrections in training worked well for me and my dog sure was smart! But I learned as she got older she hated training, did avoidance things like sniffing, yawning, ignoring me, looking away, going s l o w (which drove me nuts and got her nailed a ton with corrections for THOSE behaviors).

So I learned from my early mistakes with my first dog. Think that's what the rest of us are trying to tell you with your puppy. YES YOUR METHOD WILL WORK in the short term. But I would prefer to form a relationship with learning with my dogs rather than be the I AM THE BOSS YOU WILL LISTEN GOSH DARN IT!

I do know what I'm talking about. Really! So do the other people. REALLY! I've gotten 2 of my dogs into the Championship levels with agility and now working on my 3rd. And I so much prefer the bonding and training with dogs that love to learn and love to be with me. And (brace yourself again) I have NEVER had to pop them on the nose!!!

When I know better, I do better. And four dogs in I am ashamed of some of the training methods I used with my first dog, but know I will always do better with the next.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Jacq said:


> I had avoided posting anything about this on here because i figured it would be regarded as inappropriate due to the vast belief on here about positive only reenforcement but then i came accross this quote
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is the original post - not sure of everyones' settings so that way it stays fresh in mind. 

I wonder why you put in what I bolded? What that means to you? I am not asking this as a tssssst, finger nose question but because I am curious. 

Where is your girl now? 

Once a dog knows a command, I start with a look, go to maybe a body posture change, verbal, then if needed, physical, which is rare. They usually want to please by the end of the look. Not when they are all together necessarily (!!!! I am not claiming that kind of Vulcan mind meld with them) but when we are one on one we are really keyed in a positive way. Lots of eye contact. 

Interesting discussion!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I train for competition obedience and never really have seen an advantage to any advanced control or obedience in puppies. We have a lot of fun in training. There is plenty of time for the control and pressure and it seems to work better when they are older anyway. There are no awards or advantages for really obedient baby dogs and it is not a goal I have.


----------



## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Interesting....what is the age to you they are ready? And at 4 months what should they know?


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Here is the original post - not sure of everyones' settings so that way it stays fresh in mind.
> 
> I wonder why you put in what I bolded? What that means to you? I am not asking this as a tssssst, finger nose question but because I am curious.
> 
> ...


 
I put that part in there because i was trying to paint a picture and i thought that might be a valuable piece. i had the thoughts going through my head and i was putting them down and couldnt paint the picture as well as i though.

the dog is 5.5 months old.

i dont have her at the moment. my fiance and i are getting married in three weeks which i will have her all the time then but i am a full time fireman for the city so i work 24 on and 48 off and have no humane means of keeping my dog exept every third week when i am off on every monday and i have saturday through thursday off, thats when most of the training happens. plus i see her when i go to ohio or when jamie comes out to indianapolis. 

not really taking offence to what people are telling me i cant say that i am gong to stop tapping her nose because i havent done it in a few weeks, no need to the mear presense of my finger is all thats needed now (similar to your looks maybe?) the reason i was trying to justify it is mostly because it has worked so well.

also i am training in english not german so i dont know what platz is... since you said your dog would go down immediatly i am thinking it means lay down.... whats a good hand command to use as i am trying to couple all KEY verbal commands with a hand command.... my family thinks its amazing when i am communicate successfully with my dog w/out saying a single word.

Still plan on doing the video as i cannot process why she is to young to be training... i dont even have a hard time maintaining focus for her... our training sessions are normally 15 minutes when learning something new, but at least an hour or two every night reenforcing all the known ones while we are playing/excorsizing in the back yard.

a quote comes to mind that may or may not fit.
if you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always got.

i like what i have gotten, and what i am getting out of her, and am just trying to figure out why i should change my training tactics that have been so successful. should i not expect my 6 month old dog to learn any new trick i want to throw at her? i dont expect it but i get it, so why not reach a bit higher and challenge both her and i?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

One thing to remember Jacq, is that dogs have _very_ sensitive muzzles, it is really not an area that I would de-sensitize by "tapping". There are better ways to get attention as stated in the four pages of this thread...If you are in Indy, you should check out the local SchH club, OG Indianapolis Schutzhund und Polizei You can see some great trainers in action...worth spending a day visiting the club!


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

jakeandrenee said:


> Interesting....what is the age to you they are ready? And at 4 months what should they know?


Not trying to be flippant ... but the only thing a 4 months old needs to know is that training is CRAZY FUN! Everything else is just bonus


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am really amazed at how many people seem to have defiant puppies. Six month old puppies. Actually Tori was given back to me because she was defiant at 15 weeks old. I must say that "defiant" is the absolute last word I would EVER use to describe Tori. 

We train our dogs to sit, to stay, to come, and to down. And they do it. And we give them a treat and we think training is going very good. The following week, we tell the dog to sit and he does. We tell him to stay and he breaks it. Is is because we scratched our nose or fiddled with the keys in our pocket. We say eh-eh, and reposition the dog and firmly say STAY. 

To most of our dogs, that works good, the dog is like wow, I better not move. We release him and praise him and hope he just suffered a momentary lapse. 

But to some dogs, that amount of firmness is so difficult, they know you are not happy, they want you to be happy, they become uneasy and break their stay again. We become frustrated and more harsh, adding a tap or a tssssk. This in turn can shut the dog down completely, or it can make the dog even more worried. 

I actually have yet to see defiance in a dog. 

I have had a couple of dogs. 

A six month old puppy can master many tasks, but if the puppy fails to manage one today, that he did fine last week, it does not mean the dog is blowing you off. It could be a whole host of things. You may not even be noticing your own body language. 

When working with treats, we want to have that treat ready so that the reward is timed correctly. We may be fiddling with the treat bag or giving a hand signal. This week without the treat, our hands may not be acting the same way, and the dog's initial response is to put the butt down, but your hand is not doing what it did last week so this might be something different. 

I do not think that any dog is 100% on anything until we have trained with distractions, trained in the rain, trained outside, inside, in a store, next to a street, where there are critters, around other dogs, around people, while sitting down, etc, etc, etc. 

We move so fast to punishment we rarely give postive reinforcement a chance. But I will say this. I can train my dogs positively, once a week, for a couple of class sets, while puppies, then kennel them, and bring them out months and sometimes several months or a year later, to class and have that dog shock me completely by being focussed on me and doing exactly what I ask it to do. And I do not need punishment. 

When I am working with a dog, it is once, maybe twice a week. They do not get walks every night, they do not get mini training sessions during commercials. They go to class and get worked there and that is it until next week. 

I do not use food all the time. I mostly use praise. And I NEVER see ANY defiance. 

And this makes me wonder, is it that some of us our working puppies who are too young, too much, and overwhelming them? Or are they getting bored? Or are they just confused? 

A LONG time ago I had a dog who I thought was defiant. He was my first dog. He was strong willed, hard, dominant, and I was totally green. I do not know whether the fact that my voice finally reached a certain pitch that the dog finally figured out what it was I wanted or not. But I was at my wit's end with him.

The answer of course was another dog. A bitch this time. Not ten weeks old -- too old to bring home (that was how old Frodo was). This one was under six weeks old. When I began training her, and using the techniques that worked _oh so well _with Frodo, this girl shut down. She literally could NOT poop outside in the morning as I got more and more desperate and frustrated (trying to get her to go before I went to work). She could NOT stay in a down for 30 minutes. And when she saw me get the lead, she would run and hide. 

Thank God I stepped back and reevaluated everything. I based EVERYTHING on the FACT that this girl WANTED to please me. I just had to learn how to show her what I wanted. She did not care for treats or toys. I had to use only praise, and I had to be careful with that at first. This dog in one eight week class went from not knowing how to walk on a lead to being able to heel on lead or off lead perfectly, sit, down, come, finish, she could have passed her CD at that time. When we finally did show, she took first place all three times. The trainer helped me to see what I was doing wrong that I could not see myself while in class. But it only worked because I changed my whole attitude toward the dog, because I understood that she was not being stubborn or defiant. 

Now I am training her grand daughter. I find myself tapping her muzzle with praise when she does the right thing -- usually not on top of the nose, but under the chin. I am very physical with my dogs, but with praise. I correct dogs by saying, eh and sometimes following that up with a few words in a formidable tone. And when teaching not to pull, I will swing around and go in the other direction and if the dog isn't paying attention to that, oh well. 

But for the most part, I approach training from the point of view that the dog wants to do what I want. Then it is on me to communicate with the dog what it is that I want. You can do this by praising the right behavior, helping them reach the proper outcome and then praising it, and the dog is happy that you are happy and stress is low and learning is high. You can do this by punishment with success too. Many dogs will return and return to an owner that kicks them. This is what makes abusing a dog such a heinous thing. But negative reinforcement, or positive punishment are not as bad as kicks and the dog will "get it" and learn to avoid the negative. And many dogs will work much harder if praise is not as liberally applied. Kind of how kids will work so hard to get you to like them, while other kids who have it all, take it all for granted. If you are constantly telling a kid how wonderful they are, it goes in one ear and out the other. But if you wait for the kid to be exceptional and then tell them you are proud of them, it means more. 

But dogs are not kids. Still, constant babbling at them, constant gushing of praise, may not be the best bet. But at that moment when the dog does the right thing, at that moment, a little praise and chuck under the chin, can be huge. 

I tend to use a lot of praise, but few parties. I am physical with them, but if I break them out, I then quickly get them back on task. And it works for me. But I do not have defiant dogs.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jason L said:


> Not trying to be flippant ... but the only thing a 4 months old needs to know is that training is CRAZY FUN! Everything else is just bonus


Jacq, puppies are sponges and some know TONS of training and tricks by 6 months. 

What most of us are saying though, is there is TONS of time for 'obedience' and 100% compliance to train our dogs.

*What we do run out of is the time to get the best bonding, relationship building, socialization socialization socialization, and proper exercise during that same year or so.* Our puppies grow and go thru stages mentally and physically that we have to make sure we take advantage of. Focusing on making a confident, happy and loving pup that will go anywhere and know to keep track of us is a better goal than any specific 'obedience'.

Course we all want basic obedience, but our dogs enthusiasm and willingness to DO obedience should be a MUCH BIGGER GOAL! Once we have that we get a crazy fast 'sit' all the time. Along with the rest of it. When they really 'get' a command, and really want to do it CAUSE THEY WANT TO (not cause they have to) they will do it all the time, fast and accurately.

Attitude for training should be #1 for us. When we get that, all the rest falls in place amazingly fast. Without that, we usually get compliance (specially when they are young) but as they grow and age and the 'obedience' gets harder, it all starts to break down with tons more 'calming signals' getting tossed out by them. And we humans misreading them (the looking away, going slow, yawning, lip licking, not doing the command.....) and usually getting angry and really upping the corrections cause we KNOW they know what we are asking and HOW DARE THEY NOT OBEY!!!

BTW, I don't think most of us think you are hurting with the nose tapping. But it can't be a touch that is appealing to our dogs, instead it's startling and my dogs would start to avoid any sudden movements near their heads if I used it.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Here is a video of my Ike at 4 months old. In it I was teaching him how to heel with his head up. And as you can see the actual "training" was just a mess. He was jumping around all over the place, doing all kinds of goofy things. But you can also see (1) he was enthusiastic and happy and (2) he was engaged and wanted to do something WITH ME. Whenever Ike shows me those two things, I am happy. Now, of course, as he gets older, I am going to start asking for more accuracy and "compliance" - but not at the expense of enthusiasm and engagement.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

From Jason L


> ............as you can see the actual "training" was just a mess. He was jumping around all over the place, doing all kinds of goofy things. But you can also see (1) he was enthusiastic and happy and (2) he was engaged and wanted to do something WITH ME. Whenever Ike shows me those two things, I am happy. Now, of course, as he gets older, I am going to start asking for more accuracy and "compliance" - but not at the expense of enthusiasm and engagement.


and THAT'S the attitude of someone that will be a great trainer with a happy and well trained dog! Keep up the good work :thumbup: With NO leash at all!

GORGEOUS dog too. And unless I missed it, didn't you get that beautiful and perfect 'sit' with the 'heads up' attention right at the start, without ANY verbal commands? Just getting ready and 'in the position'? THIS is what a puppy looks like that really is starting to understand training and what is required from it....


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Thanks for answering! I wasn't sure where your dog could be! 

The affection thing is so variable. Dogs have such different levels of being kissy,, attentive, etc. However, sometimes they are hesitant to show affection because of the relationship they have with their person. Like if I leave the room, and come back, I get greeted like a big Italian family - but each dog does it differently - varying needs of contact - some just a pet, others want more interaction. But I like that you are looking at this and thinking about what it all means. 

I also want to clarify that my look, body posture, etc. level of correction are not things I typically do with a puppy, unless they are in danger. I like my puppies just to be puppies for a while and have a good time learning stuff. I have changed over time - I used to be much more "push button" now I like to see the light in their eyes. I have also changed drastically from my first dog and wish I could have done it all over with him because I sucked some of the life out of him/our training by not focusing on the relationship and fun. When I did that I got spectacular results from him.


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

Ill try and get a video up sunday night... indie is not as hiper as Ike was in that video when using treats... but is way more amped up when training with play. i still think i am training nearly 95 percent like you guys insist i should and "training" is actually playing she just has to know her commands to keep the play going. 

I dont think one of my questions got answered.... what is to much training, or too much to ask from a 6 month old. most if not all of the training is done informally through basic interactions with the dog... if she brings me a toy and wants me to throw it, she has to listen to come commands/cues then gets to play ect.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I favor 3 to 4 focused training sessions a day. Adult dogs get 15 minutes, puppies get 5ish minutes. Of course a lot depends on the dog. When I can see they're slowing down I quit. In this heat during the summer I won't push too much unless they're older and learning to work through the heat and the pressure.


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> I favor 3 to 4 focused training sessions a day. Adult dogs get 15 minutes, puppies get 5ish minutes. Of course a lot depends on the dog. When I can see they're slowing down I quit. In this heat during the summer I won't push too much unless they're older and learning to work through the heat and the pressure.


 
Ok then define training session. does making her sit and lay down and shake and stay integrated into a really intense game of tug or fetch count as a session? if so i am messing up big time because we probably play/train 1.5 hours a day normally about 45 minutes at a time. when she is learning something new, probably about 15 minutes with the clicker... no matter what if she starts to get tired or bored we end on a good note and quit.... Nothing in her life is done w/out first doing something for me... mostly sit/stay for a few breif moments.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Training occurs 24/7 - as long as the dog is with you. Every time you speak to your puppy, you are training it. Intense training is where you are focusing on one particular lesson, like 'sit'.


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Training occurs 24/7 - as long as the dog is with you. Every time you speak to your puppy, you are training it. Intense training is where you are focusing on one particular lesson, like 'sit'.


 
so what about mixing all of the already known commands into a long play session.... is that considered a training session? we never really JUST play, she is always having to respond to me somehow.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Tag is 4 months. I will pick a behavior or 2 and work on it for 5 minutes. For example- if I chose to work on his sits I have in mind a picture of how I want him to Sit. I want him to do it quickly and I want him to tuck his butt into his sit, not rock back. This is an awkward movement for a dog so I have to teach him to move himself that way and that involves a lot of luring and marking and he has to be in drive to accomplish the exercise the way that I want. So for about 5 minutes max I will work on that particular lesson going until I get 2 or 3 perfect repetitions of what I want to see. Training is not running through the list of behaviors that my dog does...it's improving and perfecting every single behavior until it's the absolute picture that I want. Every time I get out my treats I have a goal for what I want to work on and what I want to accomplish. When we work on spins I try and get them tighter and faster, when we work on platz I want him to go down elbows first, fast, and sphinx style. 

Now if they give it to me faster than 5 minutes, I'll quit because our goal was achieved and we'll play. Play is exactly what it sounds like. PLAY. I don't ask for or require anything. I do "shape" behaviors that I want, for example when I throw the ball I'll squeal and run the other way to encourage my puppy to chase me with the toy. I'll let him jump on me, and I'll pet him and tell him what a good boy he is, and I won't take the toy. This kind of play teaches him that it is safe and fun to bring me back his toys...which will help later on down the road when I teach the retrieve because he will be automatically inclined to bring things back to me and hold them nicely. There are no commands, so nothing I need to enforce, merely encouragement of behavior. If he starts to get tired, and lays down with the toy and won't bring it back I just walk over and trade him to get the ball and put it and him away. While I suppose this is a form of training, it's not formal so there's nothing to correct for and nothing to create stress in my dog. 

Now I will use commands in play probably around 6-7 months. But it looks different. It's a very physical interaction between myself and the dog. You might try googling Ivan Balabanov's The Game. The way he plays with the dogs with a tug is an excellent example of how to play and incorporate commands without correction.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Here is a video of Ivan Balabanov playing "the game" with a 11 months old GSD. I like this one in particular because you can tell the dog is pretty green (Ivan is luring all her sits and downs). Notice the sits and downs are incorporated very smoothly into the flow of the game. So much so the dog probably does not even know she is doing "obedience" ... The thing you want to avoid is making obedience feel so different than play that obedience becomes the chore, the "blah blah blah" the pup has to do before she gets to do something she really wants to do: play ball, tug, etc. You want the pup to think obedience IS the game.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Jason L said:


> The thing you want to avoid is making obedience feel so different than play that obedience becomes the chore, the "blah blah blah" the pup has to do before she gets to do something she really wants to do: play ball, tug, etc. You want the pup to think obedience IS the game.


Thanks Jason! That's more what I wanted to show. And Well put!!


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> Tag is 4 months. I will pick a behavior or 2 and work on it for 5 minutes. For example- if I chose to work on his sits I have in mind a picture of how I want him to Sit. I want him to do it quickly and I want him to tuck his butt into his sit, not rock back. This is an awkward movement for a dog so I have to teach him to move himself that way and that involves a lot of luring and marking and he has to be in drive to accomplish the exercise the way that I want. So for about 5 minutes max I will work on that particular lesson going until I get 2 or 3 perfect repetitions of what I want to see. Training is not running through the list of behaviors that my dog does...it's improving and perfecting every single behavior until it's the absolute picture that I want. Every time I get out my treats I have a goal for what I want to work on and what I want to accomplish. When we work on spins I try and get them tighter and faster, when we work on platz I want him to go down elbows first, fast, and sphinx style.
> 
> Now if they give it to me faster than 5 minutes, I'll quit because our goal was achieved and we'll play. Play is exactly what it sounds like. PLAY. I don't ask for or require anything. I do "shape" behaviors that I want, for example when I throw the ball I'll squeal and run the other way to encourage my puppy to chase me with the toy. I'll let him jump on me, and I'll pet him and tell him what a good boy he is, and I won't take the toy. This kind of play teaches him that it is safe and fun to bring me back his toys...which will help later on down the road when I teach the retrieve because he will be automatically inclined to bring things back to me and hold them nicely. There are no commands, so nothing I need to enforce, merely encouragement of behavior. If he starts to get tired, and lays down with the toy and won't bring it back I just walk over and trade him to get the ball and put it and him away. While I suppose this is a form of training, it's not formal so there's nothing to correct for and nothing to create stress in my dog.
> 
> Now I will use commands in play probably around 6-7 months. But it looks different. It's a very physical interaction between myself and the dog. You might try googling Ivan Balabanov's The Game. The way he plays with the dogs with a tug is an excellent example of how to play and incorporate commands without correction.


 
clear... i think part of the might come from the fact that i am not training my dog for ANYTHING other than to just be a good dog and the enjoyment that i get when i work with the dog.... i have seens ivans video and that is VERY much what it looks like when india and i playtrain. except indie isnt nearly as drivey. i really dont have any need for indie to be drivey at all, just obedient. we will not compete, and she will not be a working dog. the fact that she is a GSD is secondary to the training i am doing.... whats amaizing about the GSD's is how quickly they learn... she is already better trained than ANY of my friends or families pets have EVER been including some with GSD's. hopefully i can shoot this video, i have no idea how i am going to make it all work esp w/out using verbals for you guys to hear, and i dont know how to upload on to youtube, and i dont know where my camera is currently. and i doubt i will do a muzzle tap in the video but i "might" try to work it in there intentionally on a small hesitation just so you guys can get an idea and hopefully bring this thread full circle in discussion, its already been a very enjoyable thread. but also i think it might be helpful for other new GSD owners that are also not taking their dogs to any type of competition to see if the amount/style of training is deemed approapriate for her age by the more proffesional trainers here on this site.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

On a side note: I am really not a big fan of teaching young pup prolonged sit stay and down stay - because that is about as boring as it gets when it comes to obedience. Also, it's a drive killer. I think it's better to teach them a continuation/keep going marker like "good" and once in awhile ask them to hold a position for 3-5 seconds. You hear people ask on this board all the time "how do I make my puppy sit or down faster?" and I feel the obvious answer is don't teach sits and downs as static positions. Teach them as movements. Ivan's video shows this very well. Ivan does not walk up to Isis, ask for a sit, wait for 10-15 seconds, and then give her tug. Instead, he has Isis chasing the tug like crazy and then in mid chase, Ivan lures her into a sit. As soon as Isis sits, Ivan marks/releases and Isis gets the tug. 

So let's say you can measure a dog's drive from 1-10 (10 being the highest), when Isis is flying around chasing the tug like a maniac, her drive is probably at 9 or 10. When Ivan asks for a sit in mid game, Isis's drive probably dips JUST ENOUGH (to a 7-8) to comply. What you want to avoid is to have a pup at lvl 10 excitement and drive when playing and then you do obedience and the dog drops to a 2-3.


----------



## GermanPrinceHero (Feb 13, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> So you are 100% right that your way is working (for now). But it's the long term bonding and working relationship that you are giving up in the long term. For a short term goal of 'obedience'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

Jason L said:


> On a side note: I am really not a big fan of teaching young pup prolonged sit stay and down stay - because that is about as boring as it gets when it comes to obedience. Also, it's a drive killer. I think it's better to teach them a continuation/keep going marker like "good" and once in awhile ask them to hold a position for 3-5 seconds. You hear people ask on this board all the time "how do I make my puppy sit or down faster?" and I feel the obvious answer is don't teach sits and downs as static positions. Teach them as movements. Ivan's video shows this very well. Ivan does not walk up to Isis, ask for a sit, wait for 10-15 seconds, and then give her tug. Instead, he has Isis chasing the tug like crazy and then in mid chase, Ivan lures her into a sit. As soon as Isis sits, Ivan marks/releases and Isis gets the tug.


like i said my playtrain is similar but NOT as hopped up as that. 

what if any practical application does THAT style of training have over just your standard low drive run of the mill training. When is comes to HOUSE PETS, not talking competition. just your standard come home from work to a wagging tail housepet. I dont think having a dog that drivey in training really has all that many bonuses for this case except it might be abit more fun, and a bit more work.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's where Halo was at a few days shy of 6 months old: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/108565-huuuuge-halo-bragg-long-sorry.html


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Halo is that smart kid in math who always ruins the curve for the rest of the class


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jason L said:


> Halo is that smart kid in math who always ruins the curve for the rest of the class


 http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/121795-halo-brag-you-set-very-high-standard.html


----------



## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

QUOTE...""I think it is very important to correct that behavior early in life the way God intended. I am all for spanking, completely against abuse. They are not the same thing. The last quote suggests that spanking is child abuse.""
You mean you can't just give fido a time out...
It works for kids.. NOT!!!!!!


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Haha Jamie beat me to it!


----------



## Jacq (Mar 17, 2010)

Jacq said:


> what if any practical application does THAT style of training have over just your standard low drive run of the mill training. When is comes to HOUSE PETS, not talking competition. just your standard come home from work to a wagging tail housepet. I dont think having a dog that drivey in training really has all that many bonuses for this case except it might be abit more fun, and a bit more work.


 
question still stands


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jacq said:


> *i like what i have gotten, and what i am getting out of her, and am just trying to figure out why i should change my training tactics that have been so successful*. should i not expect my 6 month old dog to learn any new trick i want to throw at her? i dont expect it but i get it, so why not reach a bit higher and challenge both her and i?


Because there are other methods that might work even better? Because what's working for you now might someday backfire on you?

Halo is a house pet too, I do plan to take agility or flyball classes with her, but my ultimate goal is not necessarily competition, it's to have a fun activity to do with her. All of the five classes I've taken with her so far are family dog type classes. And if you read those threads I linked to you'll see that I challenge her quite a bit, and also that the training methods that I'm currently using are working quite well. And yet, I'm always interested in new ideas and seeing how other people train, looking for things that I can incorporate in my own training, to make us better as a team, to make myself more clear, to make it fun, so she WANTS to work with me. :shrug:


----------



## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

Jacq said:


> question still stands


The practical application of that style of training is that your dog LOVES her training sessions because she only associates it with tons and tons of fun, so much so that she doesn't even realize that she's learning. If you are doing obedience with a dog in high drive, and end on a good note, she'll want more and be super eager to train with you the next time. Next time you whip out the ball, she's going to be all "BALL?!?! Let's play mom let's go I wanna play!!!" 

If you're just palling around with her and her drive's at a 3 - 4, sure, she's still interacting with you and learning, but the next time you whip out that ball, she might be like "ehhh do I want to train with mom or do I want to go off and do my own thing? Last time it was okay, I guess, but this other thing over here seems more interesting."

That video was posted to show an example of a dog who was clearly very motivated, in drive the *entire *time he was doing obedience, and obviously enjoying it. I would venture that the next time that dog goes out for a training session he's going to be twice as ramped up to go cause he remembers how much fun he had the previous time. 

No one is saying that your pet dog needs to have a constant drive level of 10 to learn tricks with you. However drivey you want your dog when you're training depends on you - you know your dog best. The point being illustrated is that your puppy needs to be properly motivated and enjoy learning in order for you to train effectively. 

At less than 6 months, if your puppy is not obeying, it is most likely because you haven't given her enough motivation to do as you say, not because she is willfully being disobedient. The sitting there, looking at you like she knows what you want but isn't doing it, is because you haven't given her a good enough reason to. And "because I said so" is not a good enough reason. 

To answer your original question, I do use corrections in training. I use verbal corrections, I use leash pops, I use a prong collar, and I use an e-collar when appropriate. But corrections have to be fair and only given when the dog knows 100% that he's being disobedient. I think a lot of people mistakenly believe that their dog "knows" that he's done wrong, when in fact he has no idea because he hasn't been taught that specific command *in that specific environment. *I won't even go into the spanking thing because I think that's a different situation than what you're posting about, and whole 'nother topic.

Also, please try to be patient. It's only been a few hours since you posted your question. I have waited for days to get one of my questions answered before. Everyone on this forum is here on a voluntary basis, no one's getting paid for sharing their knowledge and expertise, and there are hundreds of other threads waiting for answers.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree with everything Virginia said 

To me, training is training. There are some differences here and there if you are training for a particular sport but the general principle is the same. You want focus, engagement, enthusiasm, wanting to please, willingness to work - it doesn't matter if you are training for SchH, agility, flyball, or just general good manner. Cassidy's mom has posted some great videos of her Halo doing beautiful loose leash walking and focus and mat relaxation work and like she said, she is not training Halo for anything in particular at the moment - but the principle behind the training is similar to Ivan training Isis for Schutzhund. 

I'm not against using aversives. In fact I have videos on youtube of a trainer introducing Ike to something called "leash pressure" with a pinch collar when Ike was 6.5 months old. My problem with the muzzle tap is (like others have mentioned): (1) it's going to make the puppy hand shy, and (2) I disagree with the assumption that a 6 months old pup can know something so well that the only reason she is not doing it is because she is willfully disobeying you. With pups and young dogs, I would rather just give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they know nothing and go from there. It's like learning a new language. Just because you know the grammar and the vocabulary of the language does not make you fluent in that language. Knowledge is one thing but fluency is something else entirely.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

great posts you guys and girlz)

When I train, for "whatever", the only time I discipline is for bad behavior, (which normally never happens in training). My feeling is, if the dog is refusing to do something, it's because we as trainers aren't clear enough in what we want and/or the dog isn't clear/has no understanding of what we are asking. 

I want to make it a FUN thing, a game as most have mentioned. While I'm not a totally positive trainer, I'm not a harsh or nose tapping one either. Usually a tone of voice gets the point across

For me, the most important thing I want from my dog, is enthusiasm to do whatever I ask of her..When it's 'fun', you can see the enthusiasm exude as in ivan's video. 

Young dogs normally have the attention span of a gnat, not to say they can't learn and be obedient, but I tend to let my young dogs enjoy life, be good citizens , learn the basics and go on to the more in depth stuff , whatever that may be,when they are mentally more mature.

It's not to say, they run around like wild indians , recall is my most important command, and it's something that's worked on every day, when I say COME, I want to see that dog turn in mid air if they have to before I'm even finished with the word, (despite distractions). I have been blessed to have/had some wonderful dogs, that have all had excellent recall because they 'want' to. 

First and foremost my dogs are my pets/my companions, whatever comes after, whether it's agility, obed, tracking etc, is a bonus. When you make yourself the center of that dog's world by whatever methods, the possibilities are endless


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

The question seems to be the value of having a dog in drive for training the average housepet. Part of it has to do with the attitude and willingness to please. Drive pushes the dog to consistantly perform in the hope that there will be a reward. Rewards have value. A dog with strong pack drive might work just to please you. A dog will high ball drive likes balls ALOT. A dog with high food drive likes Food ALOT and food has a lot of value. A dog that has no drive is hard to motivate because typical reward items have very LITTLE value. 

If I were to ask you to stand up and sit down and give you a quarter you'd probably keep doing it until your pocket was full and you had $10. If I were to ask you to stand up and sit down 12 times and give you a quarter...you probably wouldn't do it again for me. But if I asked you to stand up and sit down 12 times and gave you a $100 bill it would be a different story. Not only would you do it again but you'd probably do it pretty quickly. A dog without much drive views your rewards like you view quarters...it might work for awhile especially if you get paid often...but you could leave it if you weren't in the mood or the task became difficult. A dog with drive will view the reward more like the $100. And is consequently more likely to keep offering the behaviors in the hope of getting paid because it's worth more.

You want to maintain or even promote drive in a young dog because it gets sucked out in the training process as the dog gets older and things get less fun, exercises get longer, we ask more from the dog and more "have to". You go out in the real world and ask for 40 unrewarded sits in PetsMart or when you see the neighbors and see how the exercise deteriorates. 

I would like to point out another practical application of training in drive. 

German Shepherds should have drive, at least at some level. It lurks in their genetic makeup. Obedience training is all about controlling and channeling drive into specific behaviors. My dog really wants his ball/treat and has learned that offering behaviors gets him what he wants. When we do protection work he also REALLY wants to get to the helper. He understands that he must operate in control of himself and listen to me otherwise everything stops (Again the non-reward). Through all of our training in drive, when he is his most excited, he has learned with positive methods, non rewards, and appropriate corrections to listen to me because I am the gateway to what he wants. If we are walking in the woods and a squirrel darts out in front of us and he gives chase...I KNOW that all I have to do is yell a quick PLATZ or a HIER and he will call off of that object. The reason that my dog complies is NOT because he fears the consequences of my wrath for disobeying, but because I have trained those exercises in SUCH high drive that the word triggers such an immediate reflex of a response that he obeys before he even really THINKS about what I am asking of him. 

If you never train in drive, your dog never learns to be compliant when he loses his brain momentarily.


----------



## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

JKlatsky, what methods do you like in drive training for a puppy????


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

JKlatsky said:


> *You want to maintain or even promote drive in a young dog because it gets sucked out in the training process as the dog gets older and things get less fun, exercises get longer, we ask more from the dog and more "have to".* You go out in the real world and ask for 40 unrewarded sits in PetsMart or when you see the neighbors and see how the exercise deteriorates.
> quote]
> 
> HEY, that's what I did with my first dog! Sucked the drive right out of that poor dog... and I decided that I'd never make THAT training mistake again :wub:


----------



## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Jacq said:


> question still stands


Your dog gets loose, and is running toward the street. Just as your dog gets to the street, you say "Down!" Your dog immediately drops, thereby not getting run over. You say, Here!" and your dog runs back to you as fast as possible. Together you go in the house, the dog gets a treat for doing so well, and you let your heart rate return to normal.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

MRL- ME TOO!!! Amazing how we learn as we go...My Dog #3 looks quite a bit different than My Dog #1 and I expect Dog #4 to look even better!

Jake- I like to work off leash and with non rewards. The goal is make everything as FUN as possible. I really ought to get some video of Tag...but here's a video of Cade at 10 months, still very much a big puppy, that might give you some ideas. At this point he's developed a string of behaviors based on body cues that I am working into our play routine. He's off lead and he messes up a lot (actually so do I...which is why I videotape!). You'll notice that I am not issuing commands for most of the exercises and when he messes up I might give a verbal correction like "eh eh" but I usually just restart the exercise When he does it right I reward. When he loses attention on me I will take off away from him with the reward so he has to chase me to reengage in training and I KEEP moving. For Cade, who is not super food driven...MOVEMENT keeps him engaged and driven. You will notice that when I let him win the toy I automatically start moving backwards...this is how I taught him to return with toys and I keep him moving and pushing into me which helps keep him focused and engaged on me.


----------



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Jacq said:


> because we probably play/train 1.5 hours a day normally about 45 minutes at a time.


Do you think maybe she gets tired or bored sooner than you think? That sounds like a lot of training to me, especially since you say you just want a family pet who will come when called. 

Sounds like you're training to be the youngest dog at the IPO field.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

JKlatsky said:


> MRL- ME TOO!!! Amazing how we learn as we go...My Dog #3 looks quite a bit different than My Dog #1 and I expect Dog #4 to look even better!


LOVED the video! No leash and look how your pup stays with you cause he CHOOSES to be with you to listen and learn. Just treats and toys along with a bit of praise. 

Love watching a pup learning with JOY!!!! Keep up the good work!


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Agree with MRL. Great video!!!


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when training my dog i used treats
positve verbal commands.

work distractions into your
training routine. make the distractions
easy in the beginning.

i think your dog does a lot
for 6 months old.


----------

