# Question on Czech dogs/European dogs



## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

I noticed quite a few people here have imported puppies. I just had some questions. Who are some reputable breeders to look at? What is the average price? Any other info you could provide, would be great.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Depends on what you are looking for. Elaborate on needs, wants, lifestyle, etc...


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## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

Mostly pet. But I do agility with my current dog and I'm thinking about Sch


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

*Most* of the time, unless you are looking for something specific, I think it is best to go with a domestic breeder. Often people will import pups because there are looking for a specific pedigree, or they really like a particular dog that is producing in Europe. But if you go with a domestic breeder...

1. You are not having to deal with a language barrier and you can better communicate your wants/needs in your future puppy. 
2. Breeder support is better. Which I think is important if this is your first GSD. 
3. Often import puppies have no kind of warranty. You get what you get. 
4. There is no dealing with exchange rates or overseas airfare. 
5. There is the possibility of seeing the puppies, the parents, or the kennel facility ahead of time.

And there are a lot of really excellent domestic breeders that keep up on the import lines.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Agreed with JKlatsky....love my import, but if you are just looking for a good all-around dog, there is no point in going the import route IMO. Zybnek at Aritar Bastet is great...replies to emails quickly, has a great reputation, and the process I went through was seamless, etc. But there is a language barrier to a certain extent (his english is very good though) and if I ever had a big problem I really needed to discuss with him it would be difficult. Luckily, I have a nice working dog support system to bounce things off of though....not everyone is so lucky, though. I also have have no warranty or contract--which I'm personally fine with, but it's a large departure from what is standard in the US. 

No matter who the breeder is I think there is a certain amount of stress that goes with it...."did my puppy leave Europe ok?" "will everything go OK with customs?" (heard horror stories). "It's been 2 hours where is the puppy's crate?!" "When will I get my import papers? They left Europe 3 weeks ago...where are they?!" Etc etc etc.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

mrudderman24 said:


> I noticed quite a few people here have imported puppies. I just had some questions. Who are some reputable breeders to look at?


Are you asking about breeders of import lines, or brokers to purchase an import through, or kennels in E.U. to buy from?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I sent you a PM


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## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

thank you for the responses. Emoore, I was referring to Kennels where I coudl possibly purchase down the road. Just trying to furher educate myself.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Unless you have a very specific need for a specific bloodline you can get a very good quality puppy here in the States. Given the costs associated with importing, you won't save any money buying in Europe....getting a pup here gives you the advantage of developing a relationship with a caring breeder who speaks the same language. While many people have gotten very nice pups from Europe, just as many have had poor tempered pups dumped on them and IMO it is a much safer bet to get a pup domestically if you do not have very good connections in Europe.

Lee


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## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

Thanks. Is it true the Czech dogs are generally more "wired" and not as easy going as other lines? Or is it the matter of finding the right temperament in the litter?

I know this is probably the worst reason in the world, but I have always loved their "look." I guess part of this quest is the novelty of owning one. That doesn't mean I am going to attempt to purchase a dog that is not right for my household, but I am just being up front. Ideally I would like a dog I could do agility with and possibly Sch (just found a local club). But the dog would also have to be OK being a housedog.

Can anyone recommend some breeders on the East coast? I will be moving back to the Mid Atlantic area, so by the time I'm ready for another dog, I will be in Maryland again

Thanks


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Luckily you can find a ton of czech dogs right here in the us


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

mrudderman24 said:


> Thanks. Is it true the Czech dogs are generally more "wired" and not as easy going as other lines? Or is it the matter of finding the right temperament in the litter?
> 
> I know this is probably the worst reason in the world, but I have always loved their "look." I guess part of this quest is the novelty of owning one. That doesn't mean I am going to attempt to purchase a dog that is not right for my household, but I am just being up front. Ideally I would like a dog I could do agility with and possibly Sch (just found a local club). But the dog would also have to be OK being a housedog.
> 
> ...


They certainly aren't_ in general _going to be couch potatoes... But thats gonna be true for most working line dogs, Czech or otherwise.

Find a good experienced breeder who has dogs you like, and make sure they will match you with the right puppy for you. Make sure they are experienced and make sure you let them pick the puppy.

Also find your local SchH club and go out and meet some dogs...


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## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Luckily you can find a ton of czech dogs right here in the us


Can anyone help with identifying reputable Czech breeders in the US? Hopefully in the VA/PA/MD/DE/NJ area?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

What is it you like about Czech dogs better than other bloodlines???? Where in MD will you be and with whom will you train?? I bred to a "Czech" male - normal medium sable .... but he is 50% Belgian! The pups will be 1/4 each Czech, Belgian, DDR adn WGR....most breeders do cross borders and mix "lines" - much as here, someone in PA will go to KY or IN to do a breeding!

Lee


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

There are plenty of breeders here in the U.S. Not many I would trust though. Only a select few.


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## Minoli (Jul 19, 2011)

Sent you a PM


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

my opinion , there are qualities missing in the Czech dogs that GOOD working west German dogs have , (not hyper sport - not show) . The Czech dogs absolutely have something to offer and can be used well in combinations.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

carmspack - what qualities do you feel that czech dogs are missing?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

genetic obedience, connection, handler compliance, herding heritage 

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

with "connection" you mean connection to the handler correct? Strong bond?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I want the same things Carmen cites - the Willingness to please, not have their own agendas.....my DDR female always had her own agenda ...bred to a WG WL of older lines, got great biddablity! Bred her to a Czech x Belgian dog hoping to keep the biddability, the retrieve drive (insane) - the love of little children she has....and avoid the pitfalls of some of the high prey/insane extreme drives and lack of biddability in the more popular WGR lines....

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you have to realize that the "czech" dogs are not what they were. This is as early as after a few years after the wall fell , or the curtain opened. Brokers would tell me , while visiting looking for dogs , that in the beginning they got amazing dogs , which were virtually given to them , plus all the hospitality that they could stand. The west Germans went in and plumbed them grabbing dogs to improve what they had in the developing working lines. The Americans with power of $$$'s went in and plumbed them. Few really really good dogs left behind. I knew one of the k9 handlers at Pohranicni Straze who had said the same . I met him years after my discussisons with the brokers, yet he confirmed what they said.

Then the tables turned and a market interested in the novel "czech" dogs had a demand and suddenly the prices became higher and the quality less , with no hospitality anymore (more or less).
One broker said at the beginning he could select 7 dogs and all 7 would be stars . He would go back and pick some more . As time went on the success ratio changed and maybe 4 would be good , and would cover expenses.

The dogs then and now are not the same .

Same thing could be said that there are clever breedings for export . 

Changes can be good because now the dogs need to be bred for a more complex role, not just stop-that-guy dogs . 

Even in most recent years with the splitting of Czech with Slovakia there will be a difference. 

The dogs being bred for function still remain, but there is little interest in registering them , being bred for function only.

They were not bred for prey or play . This is one thing that is changed to suit north American markets.

lots of things to consider .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

carmspack said:


> genetic obedience, connection, handler compliance, herding heritage


Carmspack - I don't fell that czech dogs are missing the qualities at all. I think with the 1st (3) you listed, that couldn't be furthest from the truth. If those qualities can't be found in czech dogs then that breeder needs to stop breeding as they have no clue what they are doing. It is those types of stereotypes of czech dogs that do nothing more than to put them down at the expense of WGWL or any other type.

If you know what you want in a czech dog the right breeder can point you into the right direction of a dog that is very biddable, handler sensitive and handler soft or whatever traits you are looking for.

As for herding, I can't speak on that as I have no knowledge of that aspect.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

You are correct in that the czech dogs of today are not what they were back in the days of the z PS kennel and the wall, the dogs today are better. To say that they are not is saying that Jiri Novotny and Jiri Pokorny have no clue what they are doing.

I would hope that they wouldn't have the same types of dogs they had back then as they should be improving the breed which they have been. Today you can find all types of czech dogs to fit any type of duty needed. Again if you can't, then you should look for another breeder. 

Who doesn't want to register czech dogs and I have to disagree that they are bred for one function. i am lucky enough to be able to talk to Jiri Novotny who was the breed warden and trainer for those dogs. He is in now way breeding for one purpose but rather for a overall dog. If their dogs were only for one function they wouldn't be placing in nationals, etc.

I think people will have this steady myth of these dogs and keep putting them down for the sake of bringing up WGWL and others. If you know Czech bloodlines you can find a dog to suit any need that you want and that in itself shows versatility.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think both West lines and Czech lines are lacking some elements, and that's why I like the mixing of the two. They come from different backgrounds in terms of purpose. The latter years have brought them closer together for sure, but still distinct differences. But at the end of the day it still comes down to being knowledgable about what you are doing. Both Jiri's by virtue of their knowledge and numbers of Czech dogs, can produce whatever type they want....that being said, the market still drives aims. I know soft Czech lines, I know hard Czech lines, I know nice structured lines, and I know "g" structured dogs that will work their butt off. All pends on what you want, same as West lines. JMO


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## LeeOma (Oct 27, 2011)

*Trusting breeders*

Ace,
When you state only a handful of breeders are trustworthy in the US, that implies literally hundreds of other breeders in this country are untrustworthy. What do you base this on? Have you had firsthand experience with all or most of them? What makes the handful of breeders you trust, trustworthy? I am trying to make a decision on a breeder myself and wonder how you determine trustworthiness. Perhaps you can help me in my decision making.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Having spent the better part of 3 days with a guy who is from the CR, who trains in the CR, knows the CR dogs, and whose best friend and trainer WAS in the Czech army as a dog trainer of Border Patrol dogs....I know that the goals and criteria for breeding in CR is as much for sport as any other country at this time. Many of the true Border Patrol dogs were put down due to the aggression after more than one "accidental" deadly attack on civilians....those qualities were bred away from...much more WG and Belgian are now incorporated in the CR dogs.

Lee


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## LeeOma (Oct 27, 2011)

*importing puppies vs buying domestically*

It is much easier and cheaper to buy domestically. Unless you know the breeder overseas personally you can never be assured of the care and handling the pup may have gotten. Also the customs regulations are a pain and soon to be getting worse. If there is any problem you can deal with it domestically not so much overseas. 

I recently visited a breeder in NC with whom I was impressed. Good looking dogs well tempered in super condition. Mostly Czech Border Patrol dogs now in the second and third generation from imports. Vom Ron German Shepherds in a small town near Asheville.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

LeeOma said:


> Ace,
> When you state only a handful of breeders are trustworthy in the US, that implies literally hundreds of other breeders in this country are untrustworthy. What do you base this on? Have you had firsthand experience with all or most of them? What makes the handful of breeders you trust, trustworthy? I am trying to make a decision on a breeder myself and wonder how you determine trustworthiness. Perhaps you can help me in my decision making.


You ask good ?s


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Ok, it is no secret that I prefer Czech dogs. I like what they offer and think there is no line better (which is no different from people who prefer showline, WGWL, Mal's, Belgian, etc. Just personal preference).

Another public secret:
I train with Hans of AlpineK9 who is partners with Jinopo where Jiri Novotny was the breed warden, trainer & created the z POHRANICNI STRAZE line. I literally when Im not working spend hours at his house learning about these specific dog (and dogs in general), breeding of these dogs and most importantly, the pros and cons of each dog. Im very lucky in that at anytime (and it has happened) if I have a question and Hans for some crazy reason doesn't know, he picks up the phone right there and calls Jiri right then and there to get the answer. I have spent time with jiri in person when he was here in the states and will do so again next year learning more about these czech dogs. I talk to people that know these dogs and have seen them work. I don't hear from someone who worked somewhere during this time. I hear it from the horses mouth. I hear things that I am not at liberty to speak about b/c I finally gained confidence in trying to learn and can keep my mouth shut.

I personally only trust a handful of people (maybe 5) when it comes to czech dogs and buying a dog from them and knowing I will get a top pup from that litter. Many don't know in depths of the dogs in the PED and think breeding 2 good dogs will create another great dog. Many don't know anything of the bloodlines if they know even what bloodlines are at all.

I have seen more shady american breeders than overseas breeders. Many put down overseas breeders to promote themselves & tell people to buy from them instead. Funny thing is that they get their breeding stock from overseas!!! Many breeders put down czech dogs to help promote their own dogs.

People I trust know the bloodlines and know what each line can produce. Having numerous conversations with them I feel that they know their stuff in and out. It has taken months to develop relationships to where I feel like I know their breeding philosophy and it matches my ideal of how they are producing better dogs.

Yes, generally buying a dog domestically is cheaper than overseas. I know off hand only 2 people I would feel comfortable going to direct to get a pup from and not worrying. Anyone else I would go through a broker.

As far as importing and dealing with customs, it is easy. People make much ado about nothing. My breeder set up everything. They emailed me the documents I needed. The day before the pup was to ship I went to customs here and cleared. Took literally 2 minutes where they asked if it was a pet and stamped my papers so I could get him the next day from cargo. No broker or anything else was necessary.

You can find all types of czech dogs to suit you. If you go to a breeder and tell them what you want the one's I PERSONALLY know can provide that type of Czech dog with no problem. That crap of czech dogs aren't biddable or or genetic obedience or are handler hard, etc is pure b.s. That is a general statement that is made to put down czech dogs. I have seen many dogs that refute such statements. Its like me saying all west dogs are prey monkeys who are sleeve suckers. If you want a sport dog, family, PP, Service or whatever type of dog, you can get that in a czech dog. 

You don't HAVE to mix czech lines with west or belgium to get a better dog, that is hogwash. If you KNOW the czech lines, you know what breedings to go to in order to obtain the type of dog to fit your needs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

nobody is putting the european or czech dogs down.

As some one said , Cliff I believe or Lee the Wolfstraum, doesn't matter , both knowledgeable , the dogs now are bred to a market and that is changing the nature of the dogs. 

Do you notice how many people completly knew to the GSC breed ask for a ddr or czech dog as a pet. 

This is the big new trend, new fashion . 

You , Ace , say If you KNOW the czech lines -- well right here we have part of the problem. How can one know when the cover of the information book is kept tight as a personal diary with a key.

You only trust 5 people when it comes to buying a czech dog , I ask you how good is that then.

There are more than 5 people in America , more than 5 in Canada , more than 5 in Germany, etc etc. 

If "Hans" is Hans Blabla as advertised in very old Dog World magazines , then I do believe the dogs he advertised in the beginning were from Marko Cellerland. 
Is this the same person?

I don't adhere to pure ddr , pure wgwl, or czech. I think the best qualities should be brought together as ONE dog.

It is because they have been separated for such a long period of time that national needs and preferences have left a imprint on the different lines.


Carmen


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## LeeOma (Oct 27, 2011)

*Still no criteria*

Well said Carmen. Ace, I also prefer Czech dogs, and I would certainly expect that most of the US and Canadian breeders of Czech dogs got them from Europe, but you still haven't answered my original question. What makes American breeders untrustworthy? What is your criteria? We heard your good fortune in working and living near Alpine K9, many of us aren't that fortunate. From experience in other breeds I believe it takes more than "months" to become an authority, more like years. How many of the other Czech breeders have you met? Do you know any of them to be untrustworthy? And again, what criteria do you base that opinion upon?
Lee


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

LeeOma said:


> Well said Carmen. Ace, I also prefer Czech dogs, and I would certainly expect that most of the US and Canadian breeders of Czech dogs got them from Europe, but you still haven't answered my original question. What makes American breeders untrustworthy? What is your criteria? We heard your good fortune in working and living near Alpine K9, many of us aren't that fortunate. From experience in other breeds I believe it takes more than "months" to become an authority, more like years. How many of the other Czech breeders have you met? Do you know any of them to be untrustworthy? And again, what criteria do you base that opinion upon?
> Lee


There are some good American breeders and there are some bad one's. Personally for myself I only trust about 3 to get a top notch dog from who would fit what I am looking for. I know their breeding philosophies and agree with what they are doing. For me that is enough combined with how often I talk to them about dogs, breeding and training. I don't "expect" the best out of every breeder. I only have "expectations" for people I have developed a relationship with.

The breeders that I know have been doing this for years and not months. One's I have met I do take time and talk to as often as I can. Many are on other forums and express their thoughts on breeding and what they are trying to do. It doesn't take long.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

carmspack said:


> nobody is putting the european or czech dogs down.
> 
> As some one said , Cliff I believe or Lee the Wolfstraum, doesn't matter , both knowledgeable , the dogs now are bred to a market and that is changing the nature of the dogs.
> 
> ...


Yes dogs today are being bred to the market and many breed sport dogs. I prefer the breeders that aren't breeding for that market. Sure they know the lines to produce such dogs but rather produce an all around solid dog.

Yes many people look for pets b/c they think the sable is very pretty and get hung up on looks. Some breeders breed pets and others breed working dogs. Some of the information on lines is a public secret, it doesn't take too much to go find out as we both know. Many rather be spoon fed info instead of trying to search it out.
Do I think every breeder will tell you their secrets to breeding?? Of course not, it would be stupid. Like KFC telling Popeyes it's secret to making chicken. Both know how to fry chicken but go about it separate ways. 

Carmen for you there maybe and that is fine, but for me and what I may look for in a dog I only trust a handful of people. Could I go to others? Sure, but why do that if I have a circle that I trust? Why take the chance? Why spend $2000+ on a dog from someone I don't know or trust?

Yes that is the same Hans. Hans will be the first to say all dogs came from Germany. Reason for different types (czech, wgwl, belgium, etc) is that people got the dogs in their country and wanted to do something different. They bred to make dogs which fit the spirit, lives & beliefs of their country, no different from the American GSD.

Im not saying mixing with west is a bad thing. It can be good and provide good results. I just think there are different czech lines that you can outcross too without always having to go west.

There will never be a perfect dog, no such thing. You try to make a dog which you feel deep down represents best what the breed should be. You can easily see czech dogs that fit that, west dogs, belguim, etc.

But for people to say czech dogs don't have this or that is full of it.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Carmen,

You say no one is putting czech dogs down but you just said earlier,

"_ ....there are qualities missing in the Czech dogs that GOOD working west German dogs have ......genetic obedience, connection, handler compliance, herding heritage_"

I think that is a load of crap.


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## LeeOma (Oct 27, 2011)

You still haven't answered the questions, Ace. With all that rambling, you just disqualified yourself for any credibility. You explained your close relationship with one breeder, how does that relationship of friendship and trust make all the other North American breeders untrustworthy? It looks like a classic conflict of interest.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

LeeOma said:


> You still haven't answered the questions, Ace. With all that rambling, you just disqualified yourself for any credibility. You explained your close relationship with one breeder, how does that relationship of friendship and trust make all the other North American breeders untrustworthy? It looks like a classic conflict of interest.


LeeOma - I answered your question. Im sorry if if wasn't to your liking. Maybe you should re-read. As far as my credability with you, please don't be upset if I don't lose sleep over it. 

If you feel all american breeders are top notch then ok, what I believe shouldn't and won't change how you feel. Sounds like your a lil hurt. The great thing about having different breeders is that you can go to whom ever you like to get a dog and make yourself happy.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ace952 said:


> Carmen,
> 
> You say no one is putting czech dogs down but you just said earlier,
> 
> ...


correcto mundo ! that is what I said . I also said they have many things to commend them , that the have a role in the development of GSD for the future . Do you also see that I said GOOD working west German dogs . The list , genetic obedience, connection, handler compliance, herding heritage are not that easy to find . 
Even in the von Stephanitz book , he said that a "select" group of GSD type was bought up by the masses by the "eastern bloc" countries (not a term used by him or at that time - but understood by every educated reader on the forum).
The dogs selected were stronger in fight , higher aggression . 
You repeated what I said -- each and every nation will puts its stamp on the breed according to the needs and preferences .
All one has to do is read a few Alsation League of Great Britain yearbooks where there was great anxiety about aggression, biting , fight . This was frowned upon . I know I have a set of these great year end yearbooks . The breed is now properly acknowledge as German shepherd . In the United Kingdom the gsd were bred to be pretty docile - think along the lines of what the expectation is of a shiloh shepherd. Of course when the Chunnel opened you had changes in the quarantine restrictions making importation possible without being prohibitive. Now the dogs are changing - there are some very good breeders and strong competitors in work , some very good and very successful in house breeding programs.

When the possibilty of getting czech dogs imported there was nary one web site that did not repeat the legend of the "border" dogs of Pohranicni Straze .

Now you have people loving "the look" the colour . 

I do have one question if you Ace could find out for me , and that is how do you have a breeding programme set aside for the deliberate breeding of gsd for military (border/protection) and police work -- bred for function with rigourous demanding testing and culling , with detailed but private breeding records with no need or purpose to register them with a public registry --- get dogs approved for FCI so that they can be transfered to SV, AKC , CKC etc. 

I now some exceptional collections of dogs bred for work only with no registration. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ace how can something be a public secret AND be easy , or at least as you say not too difficult to find out . your words ". Some of the information on lines is a public secret, it doesn't take too much to go find out as we both know. Many rather be spoon fed info instead of trying to search it out."

I am very involved in information gathering as one could get . Every Saturday I am in the company of former Moscovites including a clinical hypnotist , craftsmen from St Petersburg, a Romanian Dr. etc so I get some idea of the culture . Information is not readily available and when it might be it is in Cyrillic script , with no Latin base which can help you decipher the message.
Breeders do share information. Heard of "no man is an island" . No one man or group can do it all. We build upon the success of others.

If I want to find out thorough detailed information on German lines , then I have access to 3 books on genetics by Malcolm Willis, or Brian Wooton , or the encyclopedic Barwig book , or Lanting , or hey wait a minute , Von Stephanitz . 
If I want to search out DDR information then I will take a read of the Werner Dalm book , although in German , I can find my way through it.
There are SV magazines. There are koerung reports , ZW hip statistics , videos of trials etc etc.

The information is available. 

What is the equivalent for the czech dogs . 

Jiri I am sure has information . I don't think he would claim to have developed the Pohranicni Straze "line" . Correct me if I am wrong. I believe he joined in the later years 1981? a decade before the opening of the eastern bloc. 
Pohranicni was a collective state run breeding operation. - 3 main kennels with the occasional outside "countryside bred dog" . 

to be continued..

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Carmen yes, you can say many things to commend them but that still doesn't mean what you said was a generalized statement. Putting them down and at the same time saying, "good german dogs have those attributes [all czech dogs don't]." We will just have to disagree b/c that statement is flat out not true.

And your still saying those qualities can't be found in czech dogs and that is b.s. I'll take herding out of that as I don't know enough about herding. But I see czech dogs with genetic OB, connection to the handler & handler compliance. Just b/c they are strong in fight does it mean they don't offer anything else.

I can see why you feel this way as you prefer mixing and your more into west lines.

As for your last question I don't have that knowledge to answer it but I am sure if you ask Prager (Hans) who is on this board or on his board he can explain it.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I say public secret in meaning that everyone knows OR it is easy to find out, hence the term. I do agree that breeders do share information. Some share all while other share just the essentials. I agree all that helps when doing evals. 

You are correct, Jiri has that information as well as some others. You are correct he would probably state that he was the Director of the program and yes he started in 1979.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

All this ruckus about Czech dogs VS European dogs to me is infantile....just sayin. In the BIG picture of the breed, history has shown when over a period of time you try to stay within a certain type in genotype and phenotype for too long, the product starts to lose balance as an utility dog; and the "type" starts down the road of unbalance for any use, but that of the "type" being maintained. This has been proven time and time again. True reputable breeders of GS, first understand what the breed is made of, then what the breed should exhibit, (in terms of structure, looks, character, temperament and drive....things needed to be a working dog), then keeping the lines open in genotype which will necessitate that the phenotype is not typey. (In English that means that the bloodlines used will never become too staurated and thus new blood brought in to always bring the dog back to the middle as a utility dog and not just a show dog, police dog, pet dog, sport dog, etc, which also means you will never have exclusive color patterns representing the breed).
People alawys get enamored with what they own or have bred and try to replicate this more and more....if it is successful in the venue they are participating in. They become a "slave" to the needs of that venue(sport, show, police, pet,etc), in their breeding goals and practices. 
Czech dogs, European sport dogs, showline dogs in both America and Europe, DDR dogs, all need to bring in blood (genotype) to bring balance back to the middle. BUT, the key is to bring in the blood NOT to enhance the venue you participate in, but to bring greater utility in the dogs created.
Their are very very knowledgable GS breeders that are caught up in the "venue blindness" and have forgotten the balance and utility the breed should possess. 
So I really think this Czech vs European vs Show vs Big headed DDR, is all counterproductive AFTER a certain point. Too much of anything (except nerves) in a German Shepherd is not good!! JMO.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Thank you Cliff . 
I repeat I don't subscribe to the fanatic worship of "pure" anything , DDR , Czech etc.
Too many times it is marketing . 
On one side you have owners who have an animal who is so inappropriate for them that they are frustrated and/or intimidated . 
On the other hand you have breeders with a widget mentality who breed dogs , speaking of czech here and ddr !, because they like the colour , they like the body type, the massive head -- which if you look at some wgsl you will see really big heads and over size because this came from Roland Osnabruckerland .
They have not a clue to what the genetics mean because they don't study them and they can't study them because of this secretive , information drought .
They breed with the mission to keep the ddr and czech dogs alive in a pure form and then put together combinations that would never have been done. 
I have a male and female from Parchimer Land and have had several good discussions about the lines and background. They are "pure" ddr , bred by one of the true players when there was a wall.
Do I plan to keep them as a pure strain. 
Heck NO.

Vesatility, utility , health and longevity . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

linking to page one OP mrudderman "
Mostly pet. But I do agility with my current dog and I'm thinking about Sch " 

there is no need to go to czech -- there are so many dogs available , young pups , young adults, who would fit the role brilliantly , right here in North America .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## miniko (Jun 19, 2012)

Ace952 said:


> Ok, it is no secret that I prefer Czech dogs. I like what they offer and think there is no line better (which is no different from people who prefer showline, WGWL, Mal's, Belgian, etc. Just personal preference).
> 
> Another public secret:
> I train with Hans of AlpineK9 who is partners with Jinopo where Jiri Novotny was the breed warden, trainer & created the z POHRANICNI STRAZE line. I literally when Im not working spend hours at his house learning about these specific dog (and dogs in general), breeding of these dogs and most importantly, the pros and cons of each dog. Im very lucky in that at anytime (and it has happened) if I have a question and Hans for some crazy reason doesn't know, he picks up the phone right there and calls Jiri right then and there to get the answer. I have spent time with jiri in person when he was here in the states and will do so again next year learning more about these czech dogs. I talk to people that know these dogs and have seen them work. I don't hear from someone who worked somewhere during this time. I hear it from the horses mouth. I hear things that I am not at liberty to speak about b/c I finally gained confidence in trying to learn and can keep my mouth shut.
> ...


 
Absolutely agree I am 1987 ex Czech republic Border Guard canine handler and instructor, currently working as a US Border Patrol Agent detection canine handler.


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