# help with focused heeling



## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I am working with a new trainer and he suggested I keep the reward I use for my scent detection (food) different from what I use in my obedience training. He's suggesting I use a toy for this.

I'm not sure why (I haven't talked to him yet, this was in an email that we'd been corresponding on).

Anyway this is all fine and dandy, but I find when I use a ball for focused heeling, my dog tends to forge. We are still learning our focused heeling, she's good about keeping eye contact, with either treats or her ball, but

How can I correct this issue, and should I go back to food? 

I'm not sure what his reasoning is for keeping the rewards different for the two different activities, I will ask him next time I talk to him, but thought I'd ask here as well what you guys would do to correct this issue?


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Not sure that the rewards for different activities have to be different. I can say that it is easier to wean a dog off of a toy than it is treats, so that may be the reasoning. 

Where do you hold the ball when you do heelwork? Does he start forging at a certain time, say ten steps in, or is it right from the gate? When you reward, what do you do? Present it and let him grab it, throw it for him, drop it for him to catch?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

She starts out forging, right out of the gate.

I hold it in my left hand up by my left shoulder, when I reward I say 'yes!' and drop it. I try to do that when she's not forging ahead, but back by my leg.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

There's a lot going on in focused heeling Blackshep. I don't think very many dogs are really able to maintain that level of drive for just food. The majority of them are more excited for the toy and that may be why he's forging.

You have to really take your time and where the toy is like Pax mentioned is important. Its really hard to go back and fix once you've created forging or crowding.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

blackshep said:


> She starts out forging, right out of the gate.
> 
> I hold it in my left hand up by my left shoulder, when I reward I say 'yes!' and drop it. I try to do that when she's not forging ahead, but back by my leg.


 Try making sure its really on the outside of your shoulder in your right hand, not towards the front or your chest. Its very subtle, but that little bit can start bringing them around. One step, sit! Drop the ball. Try and keep everything on a line with your body. Does that make sense?


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

blackshep said:


> She starts out forging, right out of the gate.
> 
> I hold it in my left hand up by my left shoulder, when I reward I say 'yes!' and drop it. I try to do that when she's not forging ahead, but back by my leg.


You may have accidentally created forging. I see it a lot especially when the toy is held at the front of the body - the dog wants to come forward and around so they can keep their eye on the toy. For a plain ball, I like to stow it in my armpit and the reward goes directly behind me. That way all the focus is on my direct side or behind me so there's no interest in being in front, if that makes sense? 

For a dog that is a bad forger, I've also done the ball on the rope so I can sling the ball over my shoulder and have it resting on my back when not in use. That helps keep the focus off of my front side to prevent them wanting to swing out in front.

I'd suggest trying a new position for the ball, say tucked in the armpit, and start from a stand still. Practice a good solid starting position with the ball in the arm and practice delivering behind you. I like my dogs to almost anticipate stepping back to receive the ball. 

I've found that practicing the start position tends to be skipped too quickly. You really want to nail it into his head that he will only get it at that exact position. When that's solid as concrete, it will be easier moving forward to reward for that exact position and build up the number of steps. When you start practicing going forward, the forging will be your indicator that either he does not know his position well enough or you've taken too many steps. Go back where he is successful, drill, then challenge.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I've tried the left armpit, same thing. BUT it was again, on my left. I've only done the heeling with a ball once (last night), so it's not something that's been going on for long time or anything.

I should hold it on the right? Steve, yes, that makes sense about keeping it in line. I think you guys are right, she's trying to come around to see the ball. I guess that's why I thought holding it on the left would be better, but perhaps not.

As far as slinging it over my shoulder (it's a ball on a rope), I think she will jump on me and try to grab it off my back. lol I'm not the best trainer and my dog is on the wild side, I have bruises on my leg from training last night. lol I should maybe do fewer steps too. I've been walking down the long side of my riding arena, using the wall to try to keep her straight.

Are there any good videos for training start position and focused heeling (specifically how to reward?)

I was able to get out to some training last year, but it's a long drive and I have a horse farm, so it's difficult for me to get away for a whole day. So I'm largely doing this on my own.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Never ON the right Blackshep, you just aren't able to hold it in the right place with your left hand. I'm saying basically the same thing as Pax, but I'm saying keep it in sight for a while, and her point about focus before moving is very good.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Also, if I have it in my right hand, where do I drop the ball? Behind me on the right side?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Never ON the right Blackshep, you just aren't able to hold it in the right place with your left hand. I'm saying basically the same thing as Pax, but I'm saying keep it in sight for a while, and her point about focus before moving is very good.


 Ok, now you've lost me. lol

I hold it with my right hand, on my left side?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, yes. You reach across your body and hold it to the rear, outside of your shoulder at about the same point where it will be under your arm. When you drop it, dip your shoulder slightly back so she isn't coming forward for it, at least as little forward as possible.

I'm saying keep it in sight for a while to help her with focusing on and targeting the ball. Later on it goes under your arm.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Ok, I get it now.

What hand has the leash, my left? lol


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, yeah. About 20yrs ago, I had something like this:

Leerburg | Ball Clip

It helped because I'm not the most graceful person in the world. And now they have those magnet balls for the same kind of stuff.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

blackshep said:


> Ok, I get it now.
> 
> What hand has the leash, my left? lol


If possible, I try not to use a leash. It's just extra that I have to worry about. Besides, if I can't get my dog to focus on me without a leash, I'm not going to get very solid heel work no matter what I slap on him.

If he has to be on one (like when I practice in the park where there are leash laws) I just loop the leash through a belt loop so I don't have to fuss with it.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Lol, yeah. About 20yrs ago, I had something like this:
> 
> Leerburg | Ball Clip
> 
> It helped because I'm not the most graceful person in the world. And now they have those magnet balls for the same kind of stuff.


I want it! And here I've been holding the ball in my hand like a peasant all these years.... :shocked:


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

blackshep said:


> As far as slinging it over my shoulder (it's a ball on a rope), I think she will jump on me and try to grab it off my back. lol I'm not the best trainer and my dog is on the wild side, I have bruises on my leg from training last night.


If you think she would do this, it may be a good thing to work as an impulse control exercise...just sayin'  Reward for being a focused, *patient* puppy.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm the opposite. I use the leash quite a bit.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Pax8 said:


> If you think she would do this, it may be a good thing to work as an impulse control exercise...just sayin'  Reward for being a focused, *patient* puppy.


 Yeah I try, it's just sometimes the temptation is too great I guess. lol

This is part of what the trainer and I are going to work on. She has a low threshold and trouble capping drives, so impulse control is one of the things we need to work on.

She does get better though and she loves her obedience lessons. She likes the game of having to work for her toy. She just sometimes sasses me and tries to take it. I actually kind of like her pushy attitude, I am just still trying to teach her to contain it a bit better.

That ball clip is a good idea!  

Since I'm in a controlled environment, maybe I'll just put her training tab on her, so I can grab it if needed, but then I don't have to fuss with the leash. It's not like she can go anywhere far.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm the opposite. I use the leash quite a bit.


 Oh now I'm confused again. lol

I'll bring both. Maybe my 4' leash would be easier to manage


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I've been using a ball in my armpit- I am also creating a little forging, despite good placement. 

I'm going back to using food and pedestal work to reinforce the correct position and I will transition back and forth with the ball to bring out the drive.

eta; leash would be in your right hand, reward on your left side. I drop the ball straight down and release him to my front to tug- my dog would do a flip if I dropped it behind me, plus I like to reward in position as much as possible.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Whether or not you use the leash while you're working it will most likely be decided by what works best for you. I'd try it both ways and see which one is most helpful to you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

In a lot of ways, we're all telling you the same basic thing. I keep the leash in my left hand. If I give a correction, I do it straight back. One thing I would think about Blackshep with the impulse control/ capping, etc... Do that first, separate of your actual heeling.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I work on that separately, but that is worth mentioning, thanks!

Ok, thanks everyone. I will try out some different things and see what yields the best results! I'll also take fewer steps at first and gradually build it up, but go back if we are running into trouble.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

One step at a time. One step, stop and sit, another step, stop and sit. Two steps, stop and sit. Correct any forging along the way.

Without seeing the work my first notion is that she doesn't fully understand what fuss is. We try to spend a LOT of time working on basic position. Lots of praise lots of reward without moving a single step. Just clear correct basic position. 

The basic position is with the dog sitting on your left with his right shoulder against your left leg. Pciture that at any and all times the dog should be with his right shoulder against your left leg and only reward that. In fact, correct anything other than that.

I think it helps to have a clear mental picture in your head of what correct heeling looks like, because then anything that doesn't fit the picture in your head is clear and easily corrected. It helps consistency. IMO. 

Are you always walking forward? trying teaching walking backwards, sideways, 90 degree turns etc.

People also recommend making wide left circles and other people recommend having a second handler help with correction behind the dog (so the correction is coming from straight back and the second handler is ONLY focused on forging). You'd have to speak to your TD / club members about those techniques.

As my TD once told someone who asked him "how do I prevent forging?"
He said: "Never allow"  English is his second language. But often I do see inconsistency in handling especially when you are working on something else: let's say you are setting up for an out of motion exercise. You start moving and teh dog starts forging. What do you do? I'd say stop what you are doing and fix the forging but I see people just plowing through to get to the exercise they PLANNED on doing. But sometimes you need to change your plans and address the problem.

Sorry for the rambling, I'm at work so typing this quickly.

Also, a video will help - there are some excellent handlers here that can give you advice if they actually SEE what is happening.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Dog forges because you reward it. You say the dog forges from the beginning but I'm willing to bet that even while he's forging you're still moving forward. Or rewarding. Why would the dog ever change? 

The moment the dog forges you correct and stop. Don't ever reward if it's not perfectly correct. If the dog does it wrong then break and start the heel over. Also if your dog can't heel (perfectly aligned with your body) with you turning in place then you're not ready to even be moving. If you step your right leg out and the dog moves then it clearly doesn't understand the position. Foundation work is important in heeling


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

This may be off the wall but here goes. I have never been interested in this sort of heelling, but I learned early on that when I would put the ball in my right back pocket while training Dex to heel, he would do what you are looking for perfect. Dex has an off the chart ball drive.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm not rewarding the forging and I do correct it. When I say it's from the beginning I mean the second I take a few steps, she immediately forges, I correct and we start again. I will take it down to just one step at a time. The forging was only happening when I switched from food to the ball, which I've only used it twice now, as a reward (which I was holding in the wrong place, so that explains part of it). With food she was better. 

And yes we are both just learning this, of course I'm making mistakes, that's what happens when you're a beginner and don't have anyone there to help you.

I can't tape myself, I am on my own.

I have tried doing squares, and just straight forward along a wall. I'll try going backwards and sideways too. 

My next try with the ball, held at the side of my left shoulder was better, but I still think it was better with treats.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

blackshep said:


> I can't tape myself, I am on my own.


sure you can. Get a tripod or something to set your camera on at the level you want. And Heel within that focus area.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I'll see if I can get a video. I'm sure I make a million mistakes.

I only have my cell phone and something is draining the battery (it's not the battery though), but I can give it a whirl.

I'm not sure if it will sit on the ledge of my arena kickboards, they have a 45 degree pitch to them, but maybe I can find an edge to sit it up on.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

If the dog forges with the first step then the dog clearly doesn't understand the position. Without moving, Can you turn 90 degrees and the dog turns it's entire body with you? if the dog is running around can you give the heel command and the dog comes and stands in the correction position by your leg? 

If you answer no to both then you need to go back and do foundation work. 

If all you did was hold a treat up and made him follow then the dog never learned any positions. It just knows to follow the treat. Use the treat to lure the dog into the correction position and then mark. Don't even move forward until you can answer yes to both of the above.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

simba405 said:


> If the dog forges with the first step then the dog clearly doesn't understand the position. Without moving, Can you turn 90 degrees and the dog turns it's entire body with you? if the dog is running around can you give the heel command and the dog comes and stands in the correction position by your leg?
> 
> If you answer no to both then you need to go back and do foundation work.
> 
> If all you did was hold a treat up and made him follow then the dog never learned any positions. It just knows to follow the treat. Use the treat to lure the dog into the correction position and then mark. Don't even move forward until you can answer yes to both of the above.


Perfect :thumbup:


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

that's all I've been shown so far. We are just starting out


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