# Basic help HELP



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've started to introduce some agility to Pan. I've done agility with Kenya and Nikon but so far have been really lucky. Kenya was already trained when I got her, and Nikon just really loves agility and takes to it really easily (he has good "obstacle drive", he wants to do it and will naturally take the obstacle in front of him without a lot of help). Pan is just....dumb. What can I say? We will run straight AT a single jump and he'll move around it at the last second. He's done SO much Schutzhund obedience lately I just don't think he realizes that we can do more than one thing in a row and not have to maintain perfect heel and always make eye contact. I was thinking for him a target might be appropriate but I've never had to train this way before. What do you guys think? By target I mean a lid or small dish that is always loaded with a reward and can be strategically placed to get him to go in various directions regardless of where I am. I'm also going to need targets on the contact obstacles because Pan is naturally fast and naturally wants to LEAP off the very top of the A-frame (which is technically OK in Schutzhund but I prefer my dogs treat the Schutzhund A-frame the same as the agility). How do you go about starting with a target? Do I just start with one low jump at a direct angle? Also would it make sense to pair a clicker with a target? I think I want to alternate between loading a target with a food reward, tossing a toy (I use that to start getting a dog to drive hard away from an obstacle) and coming back to me for a reward but right now I need to show him it's OK to take the obstacle even if I'm not right there.

As far as what I have at home - right now just three jumps and I'm thinking of flipping my flyball pushboard over and doubling it as a contact trainer (I want to get 2on2off for both my dogs).


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Lies- do you have access to Susan Salo's Foundation Jumping DVDs, and/or Susan Garrett's Success with One Jump DVD? My feelings on this are that you should:


Work on reinforcement (from Success with One Jump)
Value for the Jump
Exercise #1- When handler and dog are both near a jump, dog should take it. This is just like the beginning stages of 2x2 work where you simply put the dog close to a jump and reward them for taking it. Use highest possible value. There is no "wrong" here, just like in 2x2. Put dog in front of a jump and reward him for going over. No cues... Just let him choose to go over. Be sure to move around! Setting the dog in a sit is NOT required!
Exercise #2- Sometimes you want to enforce a sit, and build value for LOOKING at the jump. Put them in a sit, step in to reward when they look at the jump. Build duration.
Be sure to mixup exercise #1 and #2. Be random.

Value for the Jump Around a Circle
Exercise #1- Here the goal is to "work around the clock" training that you can be anywhere, and the dog will still take the jump in front of them. Work close, and then build distance.
You MUST build value before building distance, otherwise you will start getting slow responses.



Jump Grids (from Foundation Jumping)
 One jump with set point, then
 Two jumps in arc
 Two jump straight
 Three jumps in arc
 Three jumps straight
 Three jumps slicing
 Be sure to work both leads in all grids!



...So much you can be doing with just three jumps!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I watched Success with One Jump before but didn't retain much of it.

Pan's pretty good with one jump, we worked on that before for his retrieves. I can say "go jump" and send him to a jump, but he doesn't get the concept of more than one. Like, if I put him in a sit in front of two jumps and I went to the other side of the second jump and called him, he'd probably take the first jump and then go out of his way to go around the second. He does this in all aspects of our training, it's like he thinks that any new obstacle or piece of equipment is some sort of trick and the end-goal is to always get back to me as FAST as possible while ignoring whatever thing I'm trying to trick him with. For MONTHS he thought a dumbbell was a trick to try to distract him from breaking eye contact, lol. For like six months he refused to put his teeth on a dumbbell and then once I finally forced him to do it, about two weeks later he had a complete retrieve. He's so funny that way. The nice thing is that so far he has no hesitation of any of the obstacles. On Sunday I had a chance to basically lure him through/over everything and he seemed to have fun I just need to build more drive for the obstacles and less drive for me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've been using quart size yogurt lids to have Karlo play the race game~target plates, you need two people for that game, they can be used in many exercises.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I maintain what I said. There needs to be more value for jumping. If there was value, then Pan would not hesitate to jump, or skirt the jump. I maintain that you need to build more value.

As to target training jump sequences, I think it is a bad idea. It really doesn't make sense. You're essentially luring a jump- not training the dog focus forward and obstacle independence. Not to mention, down the line Pan will be nose bopping the ground after every jump looking for a target/treat.

I say take one full week, one five minute session a day- put him in front of a jump and stand there. When he jumps over, toss a treat. That's it... I don't believe for a second that at the end of the week he won't have more value in taking the jump...

This is why the 2x2 method is so successful for people to train weaving. When there is big value for going between two poles- then suddenly there is big value for going between four poles, and six poles, etc. Build value for ONE thing and when you then chain two of those same things together- there will be value in performing both things.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How do you add the second jump though? We've already done *one* jump for months and he'll take it on his own from various angles. He loves that one jump. But now it's like he thinks the exercise *is* ONE jump.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

You guys do flyball, don't you? How does he handle the series of jumps there? I assume he has pretty good ball drive- at least enough to sprint to the ball when you throw it. So why not set up a jump chute, put Pan at the beginning in a sit, move to the end and throw the ball out passed the last jump- then release him. The chute walls should keep him going over the jumps and the ball should cause him to drive to the end.

AgilityNerd : Jump Chute

Here's a pretty lame video of Pimg's very first agility class doing jump chutes. Wow we've come a long way since this video!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Actually his flyball jumping is somewhat of an issue. He jumps flat which is great for speed but he hits jumps a LOT. When he broke the GSD record he hit three jumps. It doesn't matter for flyball (other than maybe adding to time and being somewhat painful for the dog) but in agility, the way he does flyball would translate to dropping every bar.

I tried a jump chute and that's when he did the first jump and then cut out to get to me. He actually did a fairly long sequence without a mistake but I was running with him and basically pushing him into every obstacle. I don't know if we've done too much heeling or what, he just doesn't think he's "right" if he's not in or trying to get to heel position. Ideally I want him to understand the context of flyball vs. obedience vs. agility. Nikon is just better at that naturally, I don't have problems sending him to obstacles or getting him to want to take the next obstacle in front of him.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Maybe something like this would help: BARNES & NOBLE | Unleashing the Velcro Dog: Training Your Agility Dog to Love Working at a Distance by Jane Simmons-Moake, Flashpaws Productions | Hardcover

So if you set up two jumps, put a tug/ball/whatever on the ground after the second jump- he won't drive over the second jump to get it?? Exactly like the first jump in this video (even though it is only one jump):


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

We use targets for any time that we want the dog to drive ahead of us or drive thru a problem. Jag also loves to retrieve so I use a target just small enough for him to carry -- one of the small Gladware dishes full of bait. Others use Cheerios containers designed for children. Jag will pick up his target and bring it to me to open and give him a treat from it. Works for contacts too.

Or you can use a tug or a ball. That way if Pan wants to interact with you he has to perform the jump sequence correctly and bring the toy back to you. You play tug or throw the ball a couple of times then do the sequence again, or another one.

He is not really dumb, he just doesn't see the point yet.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Willy, no it's not a given that he will take the second jump with two in a row and a toy. You'd think he would since he's all about SPEED and the easiest way to the toy is OVER. We tried a few 2-3 jump chutes and he wasn't consistent. However none of our jumps have "wings" on the side. Maybe I need to box him in so there's no other option?  Normally I prefer to show the dog as soon as possible what the equipment or exercise *really* looks like so we aren't dependent on a lot of other "stuff" in order to be successful but if that's how it's done I could get some expens or baby gates in the picture.

Another related question, when using toys for agility....how do you avoid knocking bars? For both my dogs, toys = DRIVE = flat jumping = knocked bars (same reason both my dogs slam jump in flyball). Do you alternate between rehearsing jumping technique and using a toy to reward something like a jump chute? For basic jumping technique I used a method that MRL showed on this forum with her dog. I sit right at the jump (alternate sides) and have the dog just pop over and back, dropping food on the ground directly over the jump, not throwing it out. Nikon has had more experience with this as he's older, and he can clear the Schutzhund jump (1meter) from a down or sit position, no run up to the jump. Actually his default jumping behavior is to collect going over the jump so that by the time his feet touch on the other side he's turned halfway around and then he drops to his belly facing the jump, ready to pop back over the other way (if I'm moving, or there's another obstacle, or I've tossed a dumbbell or reward, he doesn't stop).


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow- such good questions. I just don't think I'm the authority to answer them. In my humble opinion, what you described from MRL is _not_ teach jump technique. It is simply value building the jump- like I described in my first response to you. The only way I know how to teach jump technique is through Susan Salo's set point (spider) apparatus. That last video I just posted had this in there. In fact, that actually was video of a Salo seminar. And yes- people are absolutely using the toy as reward!

I really, really, REALLY think you would benefit from checking out the Salo DVDs. You mention difficulty in sequencing, and flat jumping. She corrects both of these things in her DVDs. Even just watching some youtube videos on the subject may benefit.

There's some good info and videos here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/agility/178086-not-all-peachy-our-world-jumping-issues.html


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What I mean by jump technique is the actual physical strength of going up and over, lifting the rear, collecting over the jump. For me the dog can "jump" when he can simply jump over the jump from a dead sit (without needing a running build up or any sort of reward to drive forward). Since our Schutzhund jump is 39" high that requires some training and buildup (from a physical perspective) than say 20 or 24", so I spend quite a bit of time training the dog to power himself over and be able to collect going over the jump before actually using it as an obstacle. When I do these exercises for strength and stamina, the dogs do great and never drop bars, but when I put toys and drive back into the picture, their drive clouds their training (not unique to agility!).

I found it, this is how I structured their jump training (except I work my dogs up to 40" depending on their age)





Nikon's very good about not touching the jump in Schutzhund and several people have come to me for advice. People often think that when their dog is touching the jump they need to back up and give the dog more space for buildup but I tell them the opposite. Lower the jump and have the dog literally pop back and forth over, slowly increasing the height. Don't have the dog start retrieving over a Schutzhund jump until he can pop over and back at the full height. I often toss my dumbbell really short over the jump so the dog literally lands on top of it but has already done half the turn collecting over the jump, snatches it, and pops back over (I also do it because then the dog can't see the dumbbell so there's not as much drive for the object and less likelihood of jumping flat).


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

We did lots of pinwheel with Kastle last night. We had the jumps sort of bunched together so he had to bounce/bounce/bounce his way through the wheel. Pretty hard work for the dog but it was fun to watch once Kas got it.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Liesje said:


> Willy, no it's not a given that he will take the second jump with two in a row and a toy. You'd think he would since he's all about SPEED and the easiest way to the toy is OVER. We tried a few 2-3 jump chutes and he wasn't consistent. However none of our jumps have "wings" on the side. Maybe I need to box him in so there's no other option? Normally I prefer to show the dog as soon as possible what the equipment or exercise *really* looks like so we aren't dependent on a lot of other "stuff" in order to be successful but if that's how it's done I could get some expens or baby gates in the picture.


 This old book by a GSD person may actually be of help to you: Flying Dog Press: The Clothier Natural Jumping Method

I am a fan of setting up jump chutes so the dog can clearly see they are supposed to take the line of jumps At home, I set them up along the fence line and for some dogs I may set up a snow fence along the other side. That way once they enter the chute, it's easy for them to be right. I don't continue this forever but it's a trick I learned back when I first started agility and still find useful to help the do succeed. One they learn more about jumping and learn to commit to the next jump in front of them when not cued otherwise, it doesn't matter if the chute is blocked in or not. 

This is a real short clip of the jump chute set up I described: 




I do all different sorts of set ups for the jump chutes too. Different spacing, different number of jumps, different heights and as they get better, putting jumps at angles. 



Liesje said:


> Another related question, when using toys for agility....how do you avoid knocking bars? For both my dogs, toys = DRIVE = flat jumping = knocked bars (same reason both my dogs slam jump in flyball). Do you alternate between rehearsing jumping technique and using a toy to reward something like a jump chute?





Liesje said:


> Actually his flyball jumping is somewhat of an issue. He jumps flat which is great for speed but he hits jumps a LOT. When he broke the GSD record he hit three jumps. It doesn't matter for flyball (other than maybe adding to time and being somewhat painful for the dog) but in agility, the way he does flyball would translate to dropping every bar.


 Unfortunately, flyball encourages poor jumping skills in many dogs. It encourages them to jump flat and to be thoughtless about it because the jumping is always done on full speed on low jumps which are always the same arrangement. _Many_ dogs who start in flyball and then move to agility struggle with jumping. I'm not entirely sure of what the answer is, as some dogs seem to struggle with flat jumping no matter what methods their owners do. However, I think going through the program in the book I suggested would be a great starting point. Work through the program and see where you are at the end of it. Or even halfway through. Or getting the Susan Salo DVD and working through her program. There is no quick solution for drivey dogs jumping flat, it's a natural jumping style for some dogs, it's a side effect of speed and enthusiasm with some and it is actually encouraged with flyball style jumping. I think if you really want to do agility with Pan, your best course of action right now would be working through a jump training program step by step and being willing to take as much time as that requires.




Liesje said:


> For basic jumping technique I used a method that MRL showed on this forum with her dog. I sit right at the jump (alternate sides) and have the dog just pop over and back, dropping food on the ground directly over the jump, not throwing it out.


 That is, I believe part of Mecklinburg's jump training method (but it's pretty widely used). It's just a really small part though, there are lots of other components.


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