# Dame plus Sire equal??



## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

What kind of pups do you think these two will produce? The pups will be born in early September and if I want one, I’ll need to put down a deposit asap. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=670998

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=550123


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I love that pair, I don't know anything about pedigrees- but that Sire is super hot!


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks Josie

I really don’t know anything about petigree’s either. 

I’ve pretty much decided on getting a pup out of this litter, though. I was just curious as to what others thought of the sire/dame pedigree.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I like the sire a lot, and the dam in nice. Both pedigrees look good. A lot of Yasko. Nice German show line dogs. I think you can get some very nice dogs out of that combination.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

selzer said:


> I like the sire a lot, and the dam in nice. Both pedigrees look good. A lot of Yasko. Nice German show line dogs. I think you can get some very nice dogs out of that combination.


Thanks Selzer. You’re right – there is a lot of Yasko. Yasko is in both the dam and the sire pedigree’s. Is that bad? :shrug:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yasko was a good dog, 2x world sieger and produced well too. The only problem is that he is line bred on Uran and Quando von Arminius, and Quana von Arminius (guessing litter mates) and I think Quando and Uran had the same dam -- could be off on that, just a lot of that on both sides. They are great names, and good dogs. I think you can get an awesome pup out of the combo. If 9 generations you have uran and Quando all over the place and ten generations back Palme is everywhere, they were great dogs. There was just a thread on this. 

I would probably go ahead and get a pup out of that litter if I could manage it. It looks like a nice pairing.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

selzer said:


> Yasko was a good dog, 2x world sieger and produced well too. The only problem is that he is line bred on Uran and Quando von Arminius, and Quana von Arminius (guessing litter mates) and I think Quando and Uran had the same dam -- could be off on that, just a lot of that on both sides. They are great names, and good dogs. I think you can get an awesome pup out of the combo. If 9 generations you have uran and Quando all over the place and ten generations back Palme is everywhere, they were great dogs. *There was just a thread on this. *
> 
> I would probably go ahead and get a pup out of that litter if I could manage it. It looks like a nice pairing.


Thanks Selzer! I looked back over both pedigrees - my head is spinning! :silly: 

*A tread on what?  *


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

The thread is on the dangers of breeding too heavily on one dog or a few dogs and heavily selecting for traits like color. 

This is the reason the breed has so many health and temperament problems, even in well respected lines. 

Here's the thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> The thread is on the dangers of breeding too heavily on one dog or a few dogs and heavily selecting for traits like color.
> 
> This is the reason the breed has so many health and temperament problems, even in well respected lines.
> 
> Here's the thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


Thanks for the link, Ruth. Very interesting thread!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The dam is beautiful. I love the dark pigment on the sire. Otherwise, I can't wait to see puppy pics!

I too am leaning towards WGSL as my next GSD.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

go to the pedigree data base and see the pictures of all the ancestors -- show lines tend to be very uniform , because , they all seem to have the same pedigrees , tossed around a bit to give the appearance of "different" . Yes do go to IceBerg and make your decision as an informed decission.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

I did read many of the posts in the “Iceberg” thread. I did find some of the info helpful. However, it seems to me that there is some kind of enmity - or something I can't quite put my finger on - between the working line breeder and the show line breeder. Just sayin’ 

When you say “uniform” do you mean all SL have the same appearance? If so, I don’t know if showlines are any more “uniformed” than working lines. Working lines all look the same to me. A black GSD is a black GSD is a black GSD...same applies to the sables. They all look alike. Maybe I’ll sound ignorant here but doesn’t the GSD “standard” sort of force them to all appear the same? 

Something that has always puzzled me is the “working line” classification. My breeder breeds WGSL dogs, however, all of her breeding stock has either completed schutzhund or in the process of completing it. Most are titled in schutzhund. Isn’t schutzhund considered “working”?


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Schutzhund is a sport.

I completely agree with you, for me, I like pretty dogs. Black and Red, with a dark mask preferrably. If you have 2-3 thousand dollars to spend on a dog, might as well be a pretty puppy. 

If a WGSL can do what a WL dog can do but you prefer blk/red, then go for it. Have you put your deposit down yet? I am excited for you!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Miikkas mom said:


> I did read many of the posts in the “Iceberg” thread. I did find some of the info helpful. However, it seems to me that there is some kind of enmity - or something I can't quite put my finger on - between the working line breeder and the show line breeder. Just sayin’
> 
> When you say “uniform” do you mean all SL have the same appearance? If so, I don’t know if showlines are any more “uniformed” than working lines. Working lines all look the same to me. A black GSD is a black GSD is a black GSD...same applies to the sables. They all look alike. Maybe I’ll sound ignorant here but doesn’t the GSD “standard” sort of force them to all appear the same?
> 
> Something that has always puzzled me is the “working line” classification. My breeder breeds WGSL dogs, however, all of her breeding stock has either completed schutzhund or in the process of completing it. Most are titled in schutzhund. Isn’t schutzhund considered “working”?



I love German Show lines. There is good information in that thread. But I love the line, and I think that the pedigrees you posted are good pedigrees, and I think that it will make a good match. Yasko was a double world sieger, it might make sense to google him and look at some of what is written about him as your dog is line bred on him. 

I agree that you kind of have to filter what is said by who is saying it, everyone thinks their lines are best, their lines are more valid than other lines for one reason or another, their lines are truer to the standard, or what the breed ought to be. 

On the other hand, there are people with a lot of good knowledge regardless to the lines they favor.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Miikkas mom said:


> Something that has always puzzled me is the “working line” classification. My breeder breeds WGSL dogs, however, all of her breeding stock has either completed schutzhund or in the process of completing it. Most are titled in schutzhund. Isn’t schutzhund considered “working”?


Under the German system, all GSDs are required to successfully trial in Schutzhund in order to be approved for breeding. However, not all SchhIII's are equal, any more than all college graduates are equal. 

What do you call the guy who graduated lowest in his class at Medical school?  "Doctor." 

What do you call a dog who earned every title he's got on his home field, with a helper he's familiar with, getting a barely passing score?  "SchHIII." 

This is not to bash on show line dogs AT ALL; they're lovely dogs that make fabulous companions and many of them do quite well in Schutzhund. However, on average the top working SchH dogs tend to be working line dogs, and the top conformation scores tend to go to show line dogs. That's because working line dogs are bred _primarily_ for work and sport, and their structure just needs to support their work. Show line dogs are bred _primarily_ to win conformation shows; their work just needs to pass the trials so they can be approved for breeding.


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## Anita (Aug 14, 2000)

We have a nearly 6 week old litter, sired by a son of Djenges Kahn.
At this stage, we are very pleased with the horrors (sorry, I mean sweet little puppies!) 
Strong, active, outgoing, determined pups with good substance and pigment.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Why don't some of the WGSL breeders give the OP some insightful information on the strengths and weaknesses of Yasko and other prominent dogs in the pedigree. I think that would be most helpful to the OP.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I always wonder the same Cliff. Never read much more than "I like this dog" and "This dog has nice pigment". 

WHY do people like the dogs they comment on? THAT would be helpful. (I mean, more than just the pigment).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

pigment, structure, what he has produced. I have not seen him work if that is what you are asking, I have to go with what I can see of him in photos and in progeny.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

So how do we find out what that dog has produced? This question is for both SL and WL, isn't it the breeder's job to research that part? 

Most of us just wants a healthy, intelligent, sound dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A prospective buyer has choices. If they want to post pedigrees and look at the dog in the pedigree, what they look like, what was said about them -- koer reports give good info, what they produced, they can look them up and see. A dog that your dog is line bred on is good information to have. Or you can let the breeder take care of all that and trust that they do, in that case, why bother to post the pedigrees?

Usually you can look up dogs on pedigree database, and look under progeny, and you can google them and find other sources, like wyscat where info on shows, progeny, hip scores, and much more might be -- working eu something like that, has dogs listed too.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks everyone!! I really, really, really appreciate all your input! Knowledge is power, as they say. :apple:

Can someone PLEASE explain the term line bred? I’m not sure I understand that term. I’m thinking it means having the same dog repeated a number of times in a pedigree. 

Another thing I am *very* curious about; how much of an affect does a dog, that is say 5, 6, or 7 generations back in the pedigree, have on the current puppy? Wouldn’t the sire / dam, grandsire / granddam (maybe even the great sire/dam) be much more important to look at? 

Thanks again for the help!


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

Miikkas mom said:


> Thanks everyone!! I really, really, really appreciate all your input! Knowledge is power, as they say. :apple:
> 
> Can someone PLEASE explain the term line bred? I’m not sure I understand that term. I’m thinking it means having the same dog repeated a number of times in a pedigree.
> 
> ...


Every single dog in the pedigree is important IMO. You can have all sorts of hidden (recessive) genes from different ancestors (yes, even 6-7-8 generations back) that you might not physically see, but are there in the dog. Crossed with the right mate and suddenly those genes start popping up. Some might be good and some might be bad.

Ex: Long coats might not be found on your bitch's pedigree in the first 6 generations, but crossed with the right stud and you'll have long coats. The same goes for hips, elbows, colors, nerves, etc etc.

JMHO


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

So what kind of nerve are these dogs in this pedigree known for?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Miikkas mom said:


> Can someone PLEASE explain the term line bred? I’m not sure I understand that term. I’m thinking it means having the same dog repeated a number of times in a pedigree.


Yes. The parents are 1, the grandparents are 2, etc. If you look in my signature, you can click on Kopper's name to see his pedigree. You'll see that Sando Vom Haus Iris is his great- grandfather twice, which means he is linebred 3-3 on Sando. If, as an example, Sando was his great-grandfather once and his grandfather once, that would mean he was linebred 3-2. 

Obviously, being linebred 3-3 means that he has twice as many Sando genes as he would if Sando only appeared once. Genetically it's almost as if Sando were his grandfather instead of his great-grandfather. Make sense?


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Yes. The parents are 1, the grandparents are 2, etc. If you look in my signature, you can click on Kopper's name to see his pedigree. You'll see that Sando Vom Haus Iris is his great- grandfather twice, which means he is linebred 3-3 on Sando. If, as an example, Sando was his great-grandfather once and his grandfather once, that would mean he was linebred 3-2.
> 
> Obviously, being linebred 3-3 means that he has twice as many Sando genes as he would if Sando only appeared once. Genetically it's almost as if Sando were his grandfather instead of his great-grandfather. Make sense?


Thanks Emoore, I _think_ I understand it better now.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> So what kind of nerve are these dogs in this pedigree known for?


So how does one find out that information?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Miikkas mom said:


> Another thing I am *very* curious about; how much of an affect does a dog, that is say 5, 6, or 7 generations back in the pedigree, have on the current puppy? Wouldn’t the sire / dam, grandsire / granddam (maybe even the great sire/dam) be much more important to look at?


It depends on the dogs. Some dogs are very prepotent and their effects can be seen many generations down the road. Some are not, so much so that their effects can't be seen even even when close in the pedigree or linebred on.

But you also have to look at the concentration of those dogs. When you see the same few dogs over and over and over and over again a few generations back in the pedigree, and the dogs up close are linebred on those dogs or other dogs that in turn are linebred on those dogs, it really concentrates the genetics. One dog once or twice 5-6 generations back may have little impact. One dog a dozen times 5-6 generations back, with more recent dogs linebred on that dog, can have a huge impact. 

Often it's not as easy to spot. You may see linebreeding on 3 or 4 different dogs, and you think ok, no big deal, it's 3 or 4 different dogs. But they often aren't as different as they appear. Go back another generation or two and you'll see that those 3 or 4 different dogs share a lot in common.. same grandparents, great grandparents, littermates to grandparents or great grandparents. Making again for very concentrated and narrow genetics still built on a smaller handful of dogs, often just mixed up here and there as Carmen said to make it look like there's more diversity than there really is.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Miikkas mom said:


> So how does one find out that information?


Well, the only way to really do it is to get out and meet the dogs, their relatives and offspring, and others from similar bloodlines yourself. And knowing how to assess these things and what to look for.

Also helpful, but not so much as seeing yourself, is research through other sources. Talking to people with dogs of those lines, or similar lines, who have experience with those dogs, their relatives, offspring, etc.. People who had the opportunity to know what the dog was like in terms of temperament, not just how he appeared in a photograph or trotting around a ring, or show statistics and placements that rate conformation only but nothing about the health or temperament of the dog. Some can be gleaned from videos that may be posted online, but most has to come from talking to people. 

The trick there is you'll hear a lot of people say "good dog", "produced well", "nice lines", yada yada. But the question is what do they mean by that and how are they judging quality of the dog and his production? And do their standards for "good" match up with yours? If you're focusing on nerve and temperament, but everyone raving about the dog is doing so solely on that photograph or show record or trial scorebook or competition placing, there's a disconnect there because good in one doesn't have any bearing on whether the dog is good in the other.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Trying to find information on how a dog produces is one reason purchasing from a small hobby breeder who raise, train, and title their own dogs can be an advantage to the buyer. Here is the owner of the dog that has already done the research prior to buying or breeding the dog, has spent countless hours working with the dogs, discovering all the strenghts and weaknesses of the dog. Is known to others in their training club and in the breeding community, has dogs from their breeding out there in the real world that can be contacted easily for information about the how the dogs are nerve/drive-wise. 

Harder when a breeder purchases already titled dogs from overseas to breed. 

The helper at my club always sais he doesn't care if a dog has made it to the worlds -that just showcases the dog's training. He wants to work a dog when it is six months old, then he can see how much natural, innate talent the dog has - at that age, training has little effect yet on how they behave.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks everyone!! I really do appreciate all the excellent information you all have provided! 

P.S. Chris, if I was ever in the market for a working line GSD, you'd be the first place I'd go....you have very nice dogs!


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