# Am I crazy for trying this?



## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

Hello there. I need some advice here. Yesterday night I rescued a kitten (around 6-8 weeks old) from the freeway. .. I brought it home with me, put it on my gsds crate and the kitten has been there all day ok. 

The thing is. I wouldnt mind keeping the cat with me but what horrifies me are my dogs. I have two gsds right now. One male (6yo) and a female (2 yo). Neither of them have lived nor interacted with cats... They see the cats in the street and the prey instinct kicks in. Ears up. And they stare and stare. If it werent for the fact that they are leashed during those moments i know for sure they both would try to catch the cat....

Now, I have read the ugly and the bad on the internet. Dogs that have managed to live ok with cats and dogs who have hurt and killed cats for trying..

When I showed my female the cat inside the crate (door dividing the spaces) she went bunkers. Barks. Crys. Yells nonstop. Jumps to the door. Etc. I did a down stay for a minute and she didnt bark, just stared at the kitten...

The male gsd just stares at the cat. Whines. Crys. Sometimes barks but i can distract him very easily. He seems to ignore the cat more easily than the female. He even played with the kong and me with no problem. 

Right now, the male gsd is whining, crying, walking nonstop. He knows the cat is outside and wants to go there.

I have read to give the dogs time to understand the cat is now part of the house. To let them watch the cat in the crate from a distance until they just let it go. In baby steps then slowly bring each of them a bit closer to the crate and praise with really good treats. And that if i want i can use a muzzle to be safe...

Now. I am too crazy for even trying this? :/ sometimes i feel like i am asking to much to my dogs...I gave myself one month to try and see if they get over it...
I will see if i can take a video of their reactions...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My dogs live with a cat. The cats they live with are different from the strays on the streets.

But my determining factor in a dog living with a cat is whether the dogs just barks and carries on or if the dog stops, tenses up, drops its head and stares. I call that the death stare. Dogs that do that will kill a cat and never make a sound. 

So as long as the dogs are not doing that, keep the cat in the crate and slowly introduce them to the cat. Just makes sure the cat is up to date on rabies vaccination!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

if you can truly commit to working your tail off for the next month and able to accept that it still may not work out - then no, you're not crazy. I've introduced a lot of dogs to my cat... from my experience, unless you love cats and really want one as part of the household - your dogs sound too intense (to me) for me to make the effort. the behaviors your dogs are exhibiting are exactly what I hope not to see from a dog I consider "workable" with cats. at worse, your male sounds similar to my Keystone, however that was Keystones reaction at 7months... my cat was 7yrs old, established and confident around dogs. it took a couple months, he and my cat have been fine for almost 3yrs.

a couple things to consider:

- multiple dogs with high interest and intensity who will most likely progress at different rates and perhaps set the other back.
- this is a kitten, not a cat, he will be increasingly rambunctious for the next year or so which in turn will be more attractive to the dogs.

also, agreeing with a portion of Jax's reply - my dogs absolutely view our cat as different from street cats and would absolutely chase one if I allowed it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I gave up my pet rats for the same reason. I knew I could put in all the work in the world but he would have killed them if given the chance. It caused a lot of tension in the house. Your dogs show a great prey drive and really want to get to the kitten. I would find it a good home if you, your dogs and the kitten (!) want to remain sane. Thank you for rescuing the little cat, that is admirable. I think you were smart to ask this here.


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## Dogrunner (Oct 27, 2006)

My dogs live with a cat. They have gone from "Why do you have the enemy in here?" to snuggling up with him at nap time. It takes time and patience, but you can get there.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

This is a "know thy dog" situation.

Sabs was an eternal mother. If it was young and needed her she was there. Fur, feathers, skin, hooves, paws nothing mattered but the need to mother. 
Shadow is a hunter. While she has proven to be full of caring concern for human babies, I would never trust her with or even attempt to keep anything small around her.
Bud is indifferent. Left to his own he could and would hunt, but he is truly aware that if I bring it into the house it is off limits. With Sabi gone though I would never leave him unsupervised with a small creature. 

Assess your dogs honestly, and protect the kitten. If you choose to keep it ensure that it always has a way to escape the dogs should things go sideways.
On a side note, it is my firm belief that no cat accustom to dogs should be allowed to wander where it may encounter dogs not of it's household.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It also depends on the cat...If they are swaggering with an air of confidence, dogs show respect. If they are afraid and run, game on.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ or if they're a nutty spunky active and mischievous kitten - game on! which is my concern in this situation.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Fodder said:


> ^ or if they're a nutty spunky active and mischievous kitten - game on! which is my concern in this situation.


this is why 9 lives are available. lol


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Whatever you do, remember that your dogs can cause egregious damage, or worse, to such a tiny baby.

Please do NOT keep a kitten caged for a month. Kittens need love, attention, affection, and socialization. They will shut down if constantly caged and even with subsequent socialization, they will revert back to a shut down state without constant work on your part. I have seen it happen and it is very sad.

Personally, I really don't like to allow an adult dog access to a kitten that did not have previous, proven cat exposure, and even then it could be risky. 

If you do decide to keep this kitten, please take things slow. Do put your dogs outside or crate them and give the kitten some safe, family time. Who knows? Sometimes after the initial shock, the dogs just might settle in. Give it a few days. Even dogs with over the top prey drive can live in reasonable harmony with cats with supervision.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> if the dog stops, tenses up, drops its head and stares. I call that the death stare. Dogs that do that will kill a cat


Never subjected any of my dogs to cats....but I'm voting in favor of your above words...regardless.

SuperG


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

If the dogs are already crate trained?? They you have a part of your solution. 

That said there is only one rule in Dog/Cat relationships ... *"The Dog Never Chases the Cat."* The fastest "simplest solution" for your situation would be an E-Collar and you "Correct" the dogs for any unwanted attention towards the cat! They sound a bit over the top sand you have "two" so ...yeah. One way or another an "Aversive" is most likely going to be needed here. 

Or simpler still use a "Bonker" a towel bound with rubber bands and you throw it at the dogs and hit them in the head with it for any undue attention towards the cat ... and that would be chasing! 

However if you train them in "Place" ... then you can "Correct" them for breaking "Place" ... the kitten does not matter. 

So plan "B" ... you train "Place" and institute a "No Free Roaming" in the house policy. Indoors the dogs are in their Crates or they are in "Place." No free roaming for the dogs in the house, the Cat/Kitten does not matter. You'll need to keep "drag Leashes" on the dogs indoors (a short lash with no handle to get caught up on furniture) and you'd use it to either "correct" them or guide them back to "Place." 

I'm not really big on "giving my dogs treats for not acting like fools, I "expect" them to behave and that is what they do. So "No" the dogs don't get "Treats or Praise" for not "attacking the kitten." If you plan on keeping it?? Then that (not act like fools) is what you should "Expect" them to do. 

You were however heading in the right direction with the "Down" thing .. although most likely that only lasted a minute or two unlike "Place" which can be at least a "Two Hour" stint once properly trained.

Real world example of "Place":

Jeff Says ... his dogs have never seen that cat before?? But .... they do "understand" "Place." 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGZV6KeMkPS/?taken-by=solidk9training

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGZDIzoMkDg/?taken-by=solidk9training


I'm not understand the "kitten is outside thing??" If the dogs are inside and the kitten is outside ... that's not going to work ... you can't hide a "kitten" from a dog. And if you plan on doing the inside outside Cat thing?? Then don't get to attached to it in anycase. Indoor/Outdoor Cats "disappear" all the time.

Details on "Place" and "the Bonker" as an aversive are in these threads:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6715746-post2.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ssive-towards-cat-possessive.html#post7410522


As always welcome aboard and ask questions.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

Thanks to everyone who have replied, I will multi quote to answer a few things that were mentioned :smile2:



Jax08 said:


> My dogs live with a cat. The cats they live with are different from the strays on the streets.
> 
> But my determining factor in a dog living with a cat is whether the dogs just barks and carries on or if the dog stops, tenses up, drops its head and stares. I call that the *death stare*. Dogs that do that will kill a cat and never make a sound.
> 
> So as long as the dogs are not doing that, keep the cat in the crate and slowly introduce them to the cat. Just makes sure the cat is up to date on rabies vaccination!


I think my male gsd is doing the death stare. He tenses up, dropts its head and stares at the crate. Then starts barking, and barking, wags his tail, whines and barks. Unlike my female that just goes crazy. 

They both know the door is in my backyard, I have two yards, and everything is fenced (i live in venezuela lol). When I take the dogs to the front yard to pee, etc., they go to the door and bars dividing both spaces, -the back yard and front yard- and stare at the crate. 

This night was better. The kitten slept from 10:00 pm to 5:00 am and the alarm went on. The kitten started to cry and the dogs started the crying, pacing, barking non stop -stuff. 



Fodder said:


> if you can truly commit to working your tail off for the next month and able to accept that it still may not work out - then no, you're not crazy. I've introduced a lot of dogs to my cat... from my experience, unless you love cats and really want one as part of the household - *your dogs sound too intense* (to me) for me to make the effort. the behaviors your dogs are exhibiting are exactly *what I hope not to see from a dog I consider "workable" with cat*s.


That´s the thing. A friend of mine have a boxer and a few years go she introduced a kitten to the boxer *who is aggresive toward dogs* and everything went ok. 

People think I can just introduce the kitten to my dogs, "show it to your dogs" "if you hold it they wont do anything to the kitten" I know what kind of dogs -mad dogs- I have and If i were to keep the cat It wouldn´t be easy. 



wolfy dog said:


> I gave up my pet rats for the same reason. I knew I could put in all the work in the world but he would have killed them if given the chance. It caused a lot of tension in the house. Your dogs show a great prey drive and really want to get to the kitten. I would find it a good home if you, your dogs and the kitten (!) want to remain sane. Thank you for rescuing the little cat, that is admirable. I think you were smart to ask this here.


There are 3 animals in my house. 2 gsd and a Yorkie. The yorkie is very little and they control themselves when the yorkie starts the running. I taught them to down and stay and be gentle... But sometimes the yorkie starts the running so I just leash so that he can walk calmly and not set the dogs on a chase.

But. Too many facts here. A little animal and a kitten to dogs with prey drive that have never interacted with kittens? I was optimistic first but then I posted it on here and yep. I think I am asking to much for my dogs and that just like you said, if i want to remain sane, i have to find a home to the kitten.



Sabis mom said:


> This is a "know thy dog" situation.
> 
> Assess your dogs honestly, and protect the kitten. If you choose to keep it ensure that it always has a way to escape the dogs should things go sideways.
> On a side note, it is my firm belief that no cat accustom to dogs should be allowed to wander where it may encounter dogs not of it's household.


Thanks, right now the kitten is in my backyard inside the crate. She doesn´t wander, i dont let her _-i think its a she, i will take the kitten to the vet today- _I even put the leash on her when she wants to go to my frontyard. I am treating her like a dog LOL. I have never had a cat before.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Whatever you do, remember that your dogs can cause egregious damage, or worse, to such a tiny baby.
> 
> Please do NOT keep a kitten caged for a month. Kittens need love, attention, affection, and socialization. They will shut down if constantly caged and even with subsequent socialization, they will revert back to a shut down state without constant work on your part. I have seen it happen and it is very sad.
> 
> Do put your dogs outside or crate them and give the kitten some safe, family time. Who knows? Sometimes after the initial shock, the dogs just might settle in. Give it a few days. Even dogs with over the top prey drive can live in reasonable harmony with cats with supervision.


That´s what scares me the most. Can you help me out a bit more on the part of socialization the kitten? The kitten is crated all day except when I take her out to walk, pet her, give her food and water. Example: I woke up at 5:00 am, fed her, gave her water, played with her a bit, pet her -thats all she wants, be petted and be on top of me- leashed her to walk her trought my front yard. At 5:30 am she was again sleeping. At 7:00 am did the same thing and shes again sleeping...I will again take her out for 30 minuts when she wakes up and starts crying. 

Do you think that is enough? The thing is. In venezuela things arent easy. Even if I werent to keep the kitten, i know that it wont be easy to find the right home for her and that she will stay in house like this for a few feeks... What should I do to prevent a shutdown like you said?



Chip18 said:


> If the dogs are already crate trained?? They you have a part of your solution.
> 
> *Yes, they are crate trained but I have only two crates. One is being used by the kitten. And there is another left.*
> 
> ...


Thank you!!!


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

Pic of the kitten, sorry for the bad quality it was taken yesterday night. I was about to go out to take a few pictures of the crate and where she is, but i dont want to wake her up so i will just wait till she is awake.

How many hours a day does a cat sleep? Is it normal that she sleeps all day? She slept from 9:30 pm - 5:00 am, my dogs went out to pee at 7:00 am and she woke up again. She ate, etc, and is still sleeping since then. I think she will wake up in a few minuts.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Helios said:


> Pic of the kitten, sorry for the bad quality it was taken yesterday night. I was about to go out to take a few pictures of the crate and where she is, but i dont want to wake her up so i will just wait till she is awake.
> 
> How many hours a day does a cat sleep? Is it normal that she sleeps all day? She slept from 9:30 pm - 5:00 am, my dogs went out to pee at 7:00 am and she woke up again. She ate, etc, and is still sleeping since then. I think she will wake up in a few minutes.


Beautiful! I love the little black panthers.

Let us know how your vet visit goes.

Sent you a PM


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

We had a gsd/collie mix when I was a kid. He was a hunter. He brought his prey, or pieces of his prey, home and left it on the door step. Muskrats, squirrels, rabbits, skunks (God how my mother went off with that) and yes even a cat once. 

When I was 10. We found a kitten trapped in the basement of my dad's shop. My dad caught it in a fishing net and it scratched him to bits getting it out. Tough little kitty. I wanted him. Mom said yes. (Dad said no but that's a whole other story lol)

Anywho, we kept the animals seperated by a gate at the stairs for some time. The cat had the downstairs. The dog the upstairs. There was some sniffing at the gate. The cat decided he was not pleased with this living arrangement and took to climbing the gate to explore more of the house. Crazy little bugger. The dog would race down the hall and the cat went back over the gate. My mom and the dog had a few come to jesus moments that basically equated to "don't eat the cat". Pretty sure the dog got the broom and cursed at in Polish - my mom was super scary when she was yelling is Polish, she only did that when she was really mad. Anywho. Eventually the dog accepted the cat as part of the pack. They actually became best buddies. Snuggled in bed together every night. The dog would be eating and the cat would rub between his legs until the dog let him into the food bowl. The cat would catch mice and give them to the dog. The cat was a Tom cat, and as toms do, it would fight other cats. The dog once left from our second floor deck because some cat was picking a fight with HIS cat. He chased the other one off. Our cat came trotting home, tail up in the air with the dog limping behind him. 

My experience as an adult with introducing a gsd to a cat didn't end so well. I found a flea ridden skinny orange cat. She was super friendly and loving. I took her home and fixed her up. Named her General Tso. She was iffy about my two seniors, she'd huff up a bit with them but they completely ignored her, them having grown up with cats. Well I babysit my BF's gsd regularly so we decided to try and introduce them. General Tso was in the livingroom. My boyfriend brought his dog in on a leash. Dog saw the cat, cat saw the dog. The dog barked at the cat. Cat freaked out a bit. She huffed up, started growling, and a few hisses. The loudest cat growl ever. The cat had three escape routes. To get away from the dog. She could have gone down the hall, in the kitchen or behind the couch. Unfortunately for the pup, the General stood her ground. She darted across the living room and attacked the dog. Not a quick swipe either. Claws in kicking and biting - Bloodied his nose up pretty well. It happened in the blink of an eye and we were all taken by surprise. The dog started yelping and carrying on, pulling on the leash trying to get out the front door. And the cat stood jumped on the couch. Tail flucking, hackles up and still growling. General Tso was found a nice dog free home thereafter.

So I don't think you're crazy at all. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't just be cautious.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh I did not realize you were in Venezuela?? All I tend to look at are "issues." Well the good news ... is you seem to understand your going to have a "Challenge" on your hands. Much more of a challenge with two dos than one if "neither" has lived with a cat/kitten ... still the process is the same. 

It's a going to be a reversal of roles for the pets, the dogs in "Place" indoors, the kitten free roams. Or if that is a bit to much give the kitten a room and have the dogs visit and "Place" when they do. Let the kitten do whatever, if the dogs move towards the "Kitten" deploy a "Bonker" a pair of socks will do nicely and back to "Place" you go! The kitten is free to approach the dogs, the dogs are not free to approach the kitten. 

By and large people that have "issues" with "Pets" in conflict "all" have a roam free policy. You can't stop pets from behaving badly ... if you don't where they are??? As I am want to say ... "been there done that ... got the stitches. "


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

Guys i havent had time to reply. I will in a few hours, i dont know if you guys have heard anything from Venezuela, the daily power failure of 3 hours makes my internet go crazy. 


I am posting from my phone, finally got to take a vid of the dogs and their reactions watching the cat.








what you guys think?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't know where the kitten was but I don't feel that is a fair evaulation. The dogs were building barrier frustration watching you long before you got to the door.

Put the kitten in a crate. Bring in one dog at a time and video that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The conehead did not look to bad to me, the other dog just looked really excited. I saw nothing alarming at this point except carrying on like that will frighten the baby kitten and make it fear for its life, not fair.

Dogs will and do feed off of each other. I would work the dogs separately with the kitten.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL ... well you've "flipped" it ... the kitten free roams and the dogs are outside?? So now your kinda sorta 'loading" the dogs up with excitement. You're not really "addressing" the "issue." 

No doubt two dogs are going to be more work ... but the process" is still going to be the same. train "Place" and "Correct" the dogs for unwanted attention towards the kitten. You had "pieces" of the process already ... the "Down" and the "Crate." You just gave up on it be to quickly kinda like ... well this not working?? How long were the dogs in a dog?? One, two minutes maybe?? 

Work on "Place" in the back yard 30 minutes in one spot, take them out and about work on "Place" with distractions (use long leashes) if necessary. At home ... use the kitten in the crate thing. Tell the dogs "Place" put the kitten in the crate between them and say "Place" if they creep towards the kitten or bark or show agitation "Correct" them on the spot! 

A "hard leash check" or a "Bonker" ( I used a bundled pair of socks) and say "Place." "Place" means stay on this spot and don't "Freaking Move" until I say so! When the dogs lose the crazy out of control energy ... the kitten will be willing to approach them. When the dogs are not crazy and out of control ... the kitten will be "safe." 

Properly trained in "Place" any dog "regardless" of whether or not it "lives" with Cats can do this.:


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

With iffy intros I always let the stronger dog go first as the others, the lower-in-rank ones, looked at him before they responded.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Beautiful! I love the little black panthers.
> 
> Let us know how your vet visit goes.
> 
> Sent you a PM


There are also a few yellow-golden patches of hair coming out on her back lol 

The vet visit went OK :grin2: No demodex, she had a little trauma - sp?- in her mouth, around a part of her lower lip, but nothing serious. Probably caused when they throwed away the kitten to the floor.



voodoolamb said:


> We had a gsd/collie mix when I was a kid. He was a hunter. He brought his prey, or pieces of his prey, home and left it on the door step. Muskrats, squirrels, rabbits, skunks (God how my mother went off with that) and yes even a cat once.
> 
> When I was 10. We found a kitten trapped in the basement of my dad's shop. My dad caught it in a fishing net and it scratched him to bits getting it out. Tough little kitty. I wanted him. Mom said yes. (Dad said no but that's a whole other story lol).....


You gave me a good laugh reading all of this :grin2::grin2: thank you!



Jax08 said:


> I don't know where the kitten was but I don't feel that is a fair evaulation. The dogs were building barrier frustration watching you long before you got to the door.
> 
> Put the kitten in a crate. Bring in one dog at a time and video that.


I will video that today and post it! Thanks



MineAreWorkingline said:


> The conehead did not look to bad to me, the other dog just looked really excited. I saw nothing alarming at this point except carrying on like that will frighten the baby kitten and make it fear for its life, not fair.
> 
> Dogs will and do feed off of each other. I would work the dogs separately with the kitten.


The conehead is the male, thats the one who scares me the most, the other was the girl, the youngest of the two, she´s always barking for everything, to eat, to go out, she gets excited and she barks, etc, so I am used to her doing that...

I will start working the dogs separately.


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

Couldn´t edit the post, I have the felines vaccines pending, they didnt have on stock for the kitten, have to find out where I can take her now.

The conehead one is Helios, the male. He has always been very good with little dogs, the yorkshire when got home was 8 weeks and very very little, all i had to teach him was to be gentle and stay down while the yorki "played" with him. 

The other one is Mia, the female. She´s crazy like that always. She wants to pee, she barks. She wants to poop, she barks. I am taking her out to pee and poop and she barks until we cross the door, she´s a barker, while the other, Helios, have never barked for anything.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Can you live with it if one or both of the dogs seriously injurs or kills the kitten?

Can you carry on your life with the offending dog (s) or would you hate them? 

If not I say get rid of the kitten. You have helped it and that's great but the dogs were there first, and I believe their needs and wellbeing should come first.


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