# High Protein Foods / Proper Exercise Amount



## buckcho (Apr 6, 2011)

I keep hearing that high end foods such as Orijen and Evo are great but need to ensure that dog gets the proper amount of exercise. However, no one ever talks about what the proper amount of exercise is. 

So what is the proper amount of exercise for your dog if he/she is on this diet?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

There is no exact amount for all GSDs. Factor in age, energy level, health issues, etc..


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## buckcho (Apr 6, 2011)

Seriously??? Why did you even bother replying?


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Because it's true? Not sure why you have to be so rude. A puppy needs a totally different type/amount of exercise than an adult would. A dog with joint problems such as hip dysplasia needs different exercise than a dog with healthy joints. Different dogs need different amounts and types of exercises too. My dog personally needs to be RAN every single day for HOURS or he's NOT happy. I've met GSD's who are happy with 30 minute walks each day. It just depends on the dog.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I'd say a minimum would be an hour of exercise for a healthy, adult German Shepherd every single day. You'll be the one who knows if your dog is ok with just walking or if you need to up it to 2-3 hours of exercise and run the dog.


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## buckcho (Apr 6, 2011)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Because it's true? Not sure why you have to be so rude. A puppy needs a totally different type/amount of exercise than an adult would. A dog with joint problems such as hip dysplasia needs different exercise than a dog with healthy joints. Different dogs need different amounts and types of exercises too. My dog personally needs to be RAN every single day for HOURS or he's NOT happy. I've met GSD's who are happy with 30 minute walks each day. It just depends on the dog.


Pardon my rudeness but that reply said absolutely nothing. 

Let me rephrase my question... if you put your dog on high protein foods like Orijen or Evo, they can develop liver problems if not properly exercised. How much exercise would you need to give your dog to avoid such problems? The concern here is how much exercise is needed to avoid such heath problems for dogs on this diet, not whether or not the dog is happy about the amount of exercise he's getting. Also let's assume this is for a perfectly healthy 4 year old male with average energy level.


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## buckcho (Apr 6, 2011)

ChancetheGSD said:


> I'd say a minimum would be an hour of exercise for a healthy, adult German Shepherd every single day. You'll be the one who knows if your dog is ok with just walking or if you need to up it to 2-3 hours of exercise and run the dog.


Thank you Chance, that was helpful. I see what you're saying. 

I really like what food such as this has been doing for my dog. Her coat is amazing now. She looks leaner. Energy level is higher. This food just seems like it's doing all kinds of great things for her. I just want to make sure that I'm doing the right things for the dog so that she can remain on this diet.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

buckcho said:


> Pardon my rudeness but that reply said absolutely nothing.
> 
> Let me rephrase my question...* if you put your dog on high protein foods like Orijen or Evo,* *they can develop liver problems if not properly exercised*. How much exercise would you need to give your dog to avoid such problems? The concern here is how much exercise is needed to avoid such heath problems for dogs on this diet, not whether or not the dog is happy about the amount of exercise he's getting. Also let's assume this is for a perfectly healthy 4 year old male with average energy level.


Wow, sorry. Seemed like a clear answer to me.

I'm curious where you heard this (what I bolded). I've never heard of this.
The Dog Food Project - Is too much protein harmful?


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Much better. Lol! The only issue with protein (Which often comes along with high -fat- amounts) in less active dogs is that the high amounts aren't needed in the same way they would be for a highly active dog. Highly active dogs need the protein/fat to stay fit and build muscle. A dog who is less active CAN get fat on these foods quite easily. Typically they're high calorie so you have to watch how much you're feeding. (Good news is you typically feed less than cheap brands though!) One thing to mention though with dehydrated kibble and high protein is that your dog will probably drink more water. Water is needed to help the kidneys process the protein. In meat it would already have water added to it (Since meat is 60% water) but with kibble the moisture is removed. Personally I add water to my dogs kibble so that they get plenty of water with their food. Both my dogs are on a high protein/fat kibble with lower carbs and do great on it. They're great weights, have healthy amounts of energy, small stools, clear eyes, clean ears, good coats and always get back good blood work each year.  Only difference is Zoey's food is low calorie and Chance's is high calorie since he works and she doesn't.

Regardless of what food is fed, you should make sure your dog gets plenty of exercise which again, will depend on the dog. In my house a tired dog is a happy dog, if my dogs are getting into things or rough housing inside then it's time to hope on the bike and run them.


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## buckcho (Apr 6, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> Wow, sorry. Seemed like a clear answer to me.
> 
> I'm curious where you heard this (what I bolded). I've never heard of this.
> The Dog Food Project - Is too much protein harmful?


That answer was just a bit too broad, that's all. 

I can't send you links to what my vet and the people at the local pet supply stores say but if you look at reviews on Orijen or Evo, you'll definitely find mention of this. 

Regardless... this link is very interesting. Thanks for that.


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## buckcho (Apr 6, 2011)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Much better. Lol! The only issue with protein (Which often comes along with high -fat- amounts) in less active dogs is that the high amounts aren't needed in the same way they would be for a highly active dog. Highly active dogs need the protein/fat to stay fit and build muscle. A dog who is less active CAN get fat on these foods quite easily. Typically they're high calorie so you have to watch how much you're feeding. (Good news is you typically feed less than cheap brands though!) *One thing to mention though with dehydrated kibble and high protein is that your dog will probably drink more water.* Water is needed to help the kidneys process the protein. In meat it would already have water added to it (Since meat is 60% water) but with kibble the moisture is removed. Personally I add water to my dogs kibble so that they get plenty of water with their food. Both my dogs are on a high protein/fat kibble with lower carbs and do great on it. They're great weights, have healthy amounts of energy, small stools, clear eyes, clean ears, good coats and always get back good blood work each year.  Only difference is Zoey's food is low calorie and Chance's is high calorie since he works and she doesn't.
> 
> *Regardless of what food is fed, you should make sure your dog gets plenty of exercise which again, will depend on the dog. In my house a tired dog is a happy dog, *if my dogs are getting into things or rough housing inside then it's time to hope on the bike and run them.


Interesting you mention that my dog will drink more water. Yesterday I was just sitting there watching her drink like she's never had water before. We didn't even exercise her yet either. 

So is the only drawback for giving a dog this kind of food without much exercise is that he/she will get fat easily? No liver or kidney or whatever internal problems can develop?

As for the exercise part, another reason this became a concern to me is because my dog has really scuffed up her paws from chasing balls at the park everyday (she charges for the ball then slams on the breaks really hard). Now that her paws are scuffed up, I don't want to continue running her like I normally do. Trying to figure out another form of exercise and how much of it should be done for the time being. Judging from what you're saying, I think I have my answer: The proper amount of exercise for my dog is one that completely drains her.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

buckcho said:


> Interesting you mention that my dog will drink more water. Yesterday I was just sitting there watching her drink like she's never had water before. We didn't even exercise her yet either.
> 
> So is the only drawback for giving a dog this kind of food without much exercise is that he/she will get fat easily? No liver or kidney or whatever internal problems can develop?
> 
> As for the exercise part, another reason this became a concern to me is because my dog has really scuffed up her paws from chasing balls at the park everyday (she charges for the ball then slams on the breaks really hard). Now that her paws are scuffed up, I don't want to continue running her like I normally do. Trying to figure out another form of exercise and how much of it should be done for the time being. Judging from what you're saying, I think I have my answer: The proper amount of exercise for my dog is one that completely drains her.


If your dog is healthy with normal functioning kidneys you have nothing to worry about IMO.

There are more calories per cup. So yeah if you feed it like you were feeding something like Purina your dog would gain weight on a "normal" exercise routine. Not sure about EVO, but with Orijen over feeding will cause loose stools.

My friend has a Border Collie that runs so hard she will rip open her paws. Musher's wax and/or dog boots can help with that. I like the grip tex boots by ruffwear.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

buckcho said:


> I keep hearing that high end foods such as Orijen and Evo are great but need to ensure that dog gets the proper amount of exercise. However, no one ever talks about what the proper amount of exercise is.
> 
> So what is the proper amount of exercise for your dog if he/she is on this diet?



You really have to analyze the grams of protein a dog eats not the the GA of the food. There is no basis in any science or practice that a dog requires more than a food with a GA of 25% assuming it is eating a normal amount. Even sled and hunting trial dogs get along quite well on foods with 25% - 30% protein.

Raw foodies will normally feed fewer grams of protein than someone feeding a high protein kibble. They think it is a high protein diet but it really is not. 

I would not be comfortable (and don't) feeding a dry food in excess of 30% protein. I also don't feel comfortable adjusting food intake too far down to adjust for protein or overall calories because vitamin and mineral levels could be too low.

I really don't see any reason why a normal house dog needs anything above 30% protein fed in normal amounts. Some might be better off with a 25% food.

Just a big waste of money.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Oh Sable I love when you jump on every kibble question 

BTW what do you consider a "normal" house dog? My "pet" is pretty darn active. I also own a GSD do you?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> Oh Sable I love when you jump on every kibble question
> 
> BTW what do you consider a "normal" house dog? My "pet" is pretty darn active. I also own a GSD do you?


Yes I have one and 12 other dogs. You don't know what active is, trust me. When was the last time your GSD ran 10 miles in front of a horse? I took the day off today and took a few dogs down to a salt river for retrieving practice. They each did 20 retrieves for a weighted bumper in a strong current out a 100 yards. They ate 2 cups of a 30/20 tonight and 1 this morning. They range in weight from 65 - 75 lbs.

Running around the backyard or a dog park like most dogs do a few times a week is not active and does not require a special diet.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Yes I have one and 12 other dogs. You don't know what active is, trust me. When was the last time your GSD ran 10 miles in front of a horse? I took the day off today and took a few dogs down to a salt river for retrieving practice. They each did 20 retrieves for a weighted bumper in a strong current out a 100 yards. They ate 2 cups of a 30/20 tonight and 1 this morning. They range in weight from 65 - 75 lbs.
> 
> *Running around the backyard or a dog park like most dogs do a few times a week is not active and does not require a special diet*.


My dog gets way more exercise than that 

 Have to be picky, you do not actually own a GSD you are caring for one. You work with an entirely different type of dog. This discussion (30/20 kibble vs grainfree kibble/raw) has happened more times than I can count. 

What works for your dogs does not work for my dog. My dog is probably not as active as your dog(s) on a daily basis. Has my dog ran 10 miles in a day before? Maybe, at least very close to that..not in front of a horse though and not all at once. We have at least hiked that much in a day and then had more "activities" later that day. In the summer we spend 4-6hrs at the river. He is going non stop. 3-3 1/2 cups of Orijen. He is about 85lbs.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

buckcho said:


> I think I have my answer: The proper amount of exercise for my dog is one that completely drains her.


:thumbup:

As for the paws, I don't play much fetch with my boy on land for that reason. He will retrieve balls from the water (Which swimming is an excellent exercise if you have that option!) when we play "fetch". It's also really hard on their joints to play fetch like that on land. We do play frisbee though but he's pretty good about catching it so he's not doing much stopping.



sable123 said:


> Yes I have one and 12 other dogs. You don't know what active is, trust me. When was the last time your GSD ran 10 miles in front of a horse? I took the day off today and took a few dogs down to a salt river for retrieving practice. They each did 20 retrieves for a weighted bumper in a strong current out a 100 yards. They ate 2 cups of a 30/20 tonight and 1 this morning. They range in weight from 65 - 75 lbs.
> 
> Running around the backyard or a dog park like most dogs do a few times a week is not active and does not require a special diet.


My dog doesn't run in front of the horses, he herds them.  And it was today actually. Considering he also bikes with me (And follows me around on the 4 wheeler), I'd say he's ran well over 10 miles. :laugh: When we lived in the city he did 10 miles a day beside my bike and 1-2 hour walks at night. Not to mention dog parks, frisbee, swimming, hiking, ect we did.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Though I guess I should admit, there isn't any point to be made by pointing out my boys activity since he does well on his 24/20 and raw. xD (Plus table scraps! Yum!) But he did fabulous on EVO when I fed it.  He was -built- on it. (As well as Blue Wilderness) I sometimes feel a little more than he is now but I can't afford EVO or Wilderness on my check right now.


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## buckcho (Apr 6, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> My friend has a Border Collie that runs so hard she will rip open her paws. Musher's wax and/or dog boots can help with that. I like the grip tex boots by ruffwear.


 Thanks for the tip. I'm going to get some tomorrow to see how it works!



ChancetheGSD said:


> But he did fabulous on EVO when I fed it.  He was -built- on it. (As well as Blue Wilderness) I sometimes feel a little more than he is now but I can't afford EVO or Wilderness on my check right now.


 Going off on a tangent here... but has anyone noticed a difference in quality of Evo products since the P&G acquisition? Since this is going off on a tangent, I've started a new thread for this topic, just in case.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/160591-post-p-g-evo-acquisition.html


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> My dog gets way more exercise than that
> 
> Have to be picky, you do not actually own a GSD you are caring for one. You work with an entirely different type of dog. This discussion (30/20 kibble vs grainfree kibble/raw) has happened more times than I can count.
> 
> What works for your dogs does not work for my dog. My dog is probably not as active as your dog(s) on a daily basis. Has my dog ran 10 miles in a day before? Maybe, at least very close to that..not in front of a horse though and not all at once. We have at least hiked that much in a day and then had more "activities" later that day. In the summer we spend 4-6hrs at the river. He is going non stop. 3-3 1/2 cups of Orijen. He is about 85lbs.


For all practical purposes the GSD is mine it has been here over 2 years. Based on what you said your dog is "normally active" and any quality food with grain or without with 25% protein and say 15% fat should work just fine.

Also, the OP mentioned excessive drinking above. This is a sign the dog food is not being assimilated well. Either its poor quality or too rich, generally too much protein.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

buckcho said:


> ... if you put your dog on high protein foods like Orijen or Evo, they can develop liver problems if not properly exercised. How much exercise would you need to give your dog to avoid such problems? The concern here is how much exercise is needed to avoid such heath problems for dogs on this diet, not whether or not the dog is happy about the amount of exercise he's getting. Also let's assume this is for a perfectly healthy 4 year old male with average energy level.


Personally, I think this is the wrong question. Regardless of activity level, throughout my dogs' lives, I have fed a high protein, low carb diet. This has nothing to do with putting a strain on the liver. In fact, the liver needs higher protein in order to repair, and liver disease itself requires high quality protein.

It's really the amount of fat (for endurance) and carbs (for short bursts of energy) that play into the amount of exercise.

So, this thread is really starting off with the wrong question.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

buckcho said:


> So is the only drawback for giving a dog this kind of food without much exercise is that he/she will get fat easily? No liver or kidney or whatever internal problems can develop?


Nope. High protein diets actually help with weight LOSS.

If there is a weakness in the kidneys, or if they are compromised by something like lyme disease, then you have to control phosphorous perhaps a bit more carefully. But for a normal healthy dog, a high protein diet is fine if they tolerate it. If you're feeding kibble, there are all sorts of reasons that they might not tolerate the kibble, and it might not have anything to do with the fact that it's high protein, so you have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. Finding the right kibble can be pretty tricky.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

sable123 said:


> Also, the OP mentioned excessive drinking above. This is a sign the dog food is not being assimilated well. Either its poor quality or too rich, generally too much protein.


Hogwash.

It's a sign that kibble is devoid of moisture and GSDs run hot.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

yikes

I am so glad my dog gets by with less than 2 hours of exercise .... and a total of about 3 miles of walking. Lucky me


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

LisaT said:


> Hogwash.
> 
> It's a sign that kibble is devoid of moisture and GSDs run hot.



Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about. Excessive drinking especially 60 -90 minutes after eating is a sign that the food is just not being assimilated well. Granted it is warmer now, but it still holds.


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## shets114 (Dec 31, 2006)

Protein percentages really don't mean much. You need to calculate the grams per day to see the true amount of protein being fed. If you feed a product that is of lesser quality and feed 4 cups of 26% protein and you feed a higher quality product that is 38% and only feed 3 cups per day you can actually be feeding a higher amount of protein with with the lower percentage product.


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## mroutdoorsman (Oct 4, 2010)

buckcho said:


> Pardon my rudeness but that reply said absolutely nothing.
> 
> Let me rephrase my question... if you put your dog on high protein foods like Orijen or Evo, they can develop liver problems if not properly exercised. How much exercise would you need to give your dog to avoid such problems? The concern here is how much exercise is needed to avoid such heath problems for dogs on this diet, not whether or not the dog is happy about the amount of exercise he's getting. Also let's assume this is for a perfectly healthy 4 year old male with average energy level.


"Although the data are convincing for an effect of dietary
protein on progressive renal injury in rats, data from other
species are not." - http://files.championpetfoods.com/Effects_of_High_Protein_on_Renal_Function.pdf

http://files.championpetfoods.com/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf

http://files.championpetfoods.com/High_Protein_and_Large Breed_Study.pdf


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

One thing I love about this forum is the respect people show to each other and their opinions. It seems I don't know the complete history between all of you but maybe a little common courtesy is in order? I see a lot of personal attacks and just rudeness here. I'm not a mod (clearly) but just giving my opinion...

As far as protein intake is concerned - I've been feeding my dog Acana Pacifica (roughly 33% protein) along with roughly 3 hours daily of exercise + training (Schutzhund, fetching, walking) and he's lean and healthy. I don't know what's right or wrong but I know that my dog is looking great.

Each dog is different. Look at your dog and feel his ribs. If you can visually see his ribs - he needs more food and / or less exercise. If he's fat - he needs less food / more exercise. It's trial and error until you find the right combination for your dog.

As far as Evo / Innova is concerned - I tell my friends to stay away from them since P&G bought them. They have a certain amount of time before they have to indiciate the change of ingredients on the label (that right was given to them so they don't have to reprint all the bags) so who knows what they put in their kibble now. Since there are so many other brands out there - why take a chance? 

Just my opinion people - please keep the flames to a minimum


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