# Tell me what you see in this dog



## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I brought Monica into my home last Sunday, and since then everyone who sees her takes her as a pure German shepherd. I do not.

She's about 3 according to my vet, and 40ish lbs. She's half the size of my GSD Hope basically.

Can shepherds be that small? Can bad enough breeding result in a tail that curls all the way over the top and touches her back?

She certainly has no problem posing as a half grown GSD puppy, folks are amazed to learn she's a 3yr old dog.

Anyway some pics.

This is blurry, my phone cam was in macro and I didn't notice, but it does show how her tail curls normally over her back which is where she normally carries it.










And playing with a toy



















And a face shot.










Any guesses on what she could be mixed with? Some northern breed?

Her behavior and mannerisms seems a bit more like a terrier if that makes sense. Her coat is very fine and soft around her neck and shoulders. Nothing like Hopes.

Or is it possible she is just a runt and very badly bred as some suggest to me? I'm having a hard time believing that would be possible.

She is an extremely smart dog though, she has almost picked up in a week what it took several months to teach Hope.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

i say a terrier....Her head although looks shepherd is def terrier as well as the tail....either way adorable.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

WOW! Shes a cutie!
maybe a malamute mix?
http://www.breederretriever.com/photopost/data/735/shiba_inu_pup.jpg

That dog sort looks like her....


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## GSDTrain (Apr 21, 2008)

husky?

cute, though


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: amd1i say a terrier....Her head although looks shepherd is def terrier as well as the tail....either way adorable.


That is what I was thinking...he ears are shorter than a GSD and her snout does not seem as long. Her head seems triangular and terrier like.

She is cute though!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

She's adorable with her terminally cute puppy face!

The tail looks spitz breed - I guess shiba inu becuase they're smaller and there's something shiba-ish to her sweet little face. 

Probably a high mix where one parent was a full blood shepherd and the other was half shepherd half something else.

As far as the soft fur, Morgan is like a bottle brush. I feed her duck kibble which makes her a little softer but she's very coarse. Otto on the other hand is soft and fluffy - they're both full bloods.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Wow, she's really cute and pretty!!


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## DorianE (Jan 5, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> The tail looks spitz breed - I guess shiba inu becuase they're smaller and there's something shiba-ish to her sweet little face.


I was going to say the same. Cute though! Very Cute!


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

She sure looks like a definite purebred GSD to me! Look at her mask and pigmentation. The frosted coat on the back of her neck. Classic black and tan. Her tail is called a "gay tail" and has nothing to do with bad breeding, just the way they hold it. My own well-bred working bitch has this, and while annoying, it doesn't make her any less of a Shepherd.

She's a beauty!

-Jackie

ETA: Oh by the way, smaller dogs aren't the norm, but they can happen now and then. I don't think she's quite small enough to be labeled a genetic dwarf, but that's better for her as dwarfs tend to have more health problems.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Yes she is a beautiful little dog,

And very smart and eager to please as well.

I think she has potential to unseat my best dog ever, a Lab/Border collie mix I raised from a 6wk pup.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GhostwolfShe sure looks like a definite purebred GSD to me! Look at her mask and pigmentation. The frosted coat on the back of her neck. Classic black and tan. Her tail is called a "gay tail" and has nothing to do with bad breeding, just the way they hold it. My own well-bred working bitch has this, and while annoying, it doesn't make her any less of a Shepherd.
> 
> She's a beauty!
> 
> ...


Yes her coloring and markings and most or all of her coat are basically perfect shepherd as far as I can tell, her small size, tail and the way she walks (butt wiggle) are the only things that look different really, maybe head shape a little.

Her mannerisms and such don't seem like herder either.

So it is possible she could be all shepherd, just small?

Not that it matters at all to me, I just find it curious.


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

> Quote:So it is possible she could be all shepherd, just small?


Definitely! I would bet good money on her being purebred. She just has too many of the classic GSD features. 

My sister has a yellow lab who only reached 48 lbs. at adulthood.

-Jackie


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Her head looks terrierish which would account for the smaller size. I do not see Sibe or malamute as others said though. Malamute would not account for the size and I just see no Sibe either.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

GSD and terrier, look at that spunk!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I was also going to say Shiba-inu GSD. Is it possible to get some side shots of her standing an a side of her head? Shiba inus also come in a color close to black and tan. 

Color doesn't have much to do with it... My neighbor has GSD/Shiba by the looks of him, but has the perfect saddle markings.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Hmm, come to think of it, the head is very rat/jrt ish. Maybe terrier/shiba/gsd? More pics would help.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I posted one at the top....(I wrote malamute by accident)


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I'll get more pics later today, the weedeater and tree saw is calling now..

I'd like to get a good side shot, but she rarely stands still long enough, and tends to stick right beside me.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i always look at it this way (speaking in general, not just in regards to Monica). with bad breeding - ANYTHING is possible... short ears, short coat, curled tail, long legs, small size, white patches, soft ears, etc... but when a dog exhibits _several_ of those traits (and throw a black tongue in there just for kicks)... chances are its got something else in its bloodline.

think about the thousands of bad breeders who still produce shepherds that are pretty close to standard. its just more likely that someone somewhere however long ago had a mystery parent.

that said... given size, ears, and tail... i'm thinking something in the shiba inu // jindo family as well... or even a hint of elkhound.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Ok I grabbed the camera and got a few pics before the batteries went dead... Standard size frisbee, she seems to be a natural fetcher, I don't have to call her back or anything.


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

OK, I STILL maintain that that's a purebred GSD! I can see how people may have gotten the mix idea from the way her head looks in the bottom of the first pics, but I think that's just the picture. These side shots convince me all the more. I have personally seen pet GSDs that look this way. Like I said, the only thing that isn't typical GSD is her tail, and that does not mean she's a mix. (I have a bitch with the handsome background and pedigree and all that jazz, she holds her tail just like that 95% of the time.)

-Jackie


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

as owner of gay tail GSD have no idea!!her head shots say to me GSD.mabe a little shiba -inu?she is surely a neat representative of GSD personality in my mind.would surely adopt if I was in the space/time to get a dog like my GSD


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

you're right Jackie. it was the headshot in the first set of pics that put 'mix' in my mind... she could very well be PB (and yes, i too have seen some that resemble her) but i do see more than just her tail.

along with the short wide ears and curly tail, her body looks pretty compact, her coat is very short and for 40lbs she looks pretty filled out (meaning she could still very well be healthy at 38lbs which is far too low to even be on the lower end of the standard in my opinion)

granted, if there is something else in her... its a very small percentage.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

IN that last picture, I'd have to agree she does not look like a mix - tailset is very high but not over the back like a spitz. Otto carries his tail very high when he's happy - sometimes curled up high over his back.

Maybe you got super lucky and got one of the coveted Mini-GSDs. 

Who was the member who had a dog that was GSD/Chow looked very very much like your girl? Mini dog, couldn't see the mix in him hardly at all.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaIN that last picture, I'd have to agree she does not look like a mix - tailset is very high but not over the back like a spitz. Otto carries his tail very high when he's happy - sometimes curled up high over his back.
> 
> Maybe you got super lucky and got one of the coveted Mini-GSDs.
> 
> Who was the member who had a dog that was GSD/Chow looked very very much like your girl? Mini dog, couldn't see the mix in him hardly at all.


Her tail is highly dependent. 

From up between her legs if she is really insecure, kinda like Hope's and down to straight out the back if she's not so sure, to where it is in that last pic and to all the way over the top and touching her back when we're out on a leash walk and she's in prancing mode.

But unless something is wrong it's normally where it is that last pic or higher and will touch her back.

When she lays down, it is down and wrapped around her like a normal shepherds tail.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaWho was the member who had a dog that was GSD/Chow looked very very much like your girl?


Diana & Renji?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Yes! Remembered it was Diana(M?) but couldn't remember the dog's name. She hasn't been around in a while. He's smaller and very shepherd looking from most angles. 

This is Otto's tail - couldn't find something where it's even gayer than this but he does carry it so high sometimes it's touching his back.


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

TxRider,

Wish I had better pics but these were all I could find on my computer to illustrate Anika's gay tail. She holds it at different heights as you can see, and in one pic, it's straight up like your girl in one of your pics.




























-Jackie


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

> Quote:where it's even gayer than this


For some reason that made me LOL!









-Jackie


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I see. Shepherds have such a variety of pattern and coat etc. I guess it's a real possibility.

I guess I'll never know, but I didn't imagine she might be all Shepherd.

All I really know is she was picked up as a stray by animal control, which wouldn't seem to favor a pure Shepherd.


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

Tons of PB shepherds end up in Animal control.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm still not completely convinved, though her markings here make her look remarkably like my GSD. The only thing that is throwing me is her back. They are normally either straight across or downward sloping near the tail, and your dogs rear end seems to slope up here:









But had you not said her size, I would not have been able to tell here in this picture. I still continue to say she is beautiful and a perfect "knock-off GSD" if she isn't PB.







If you ever decide to have one of those DNA test panels run to find out whats in her, I am very interested to know the results.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: TxRider All I really know is she was picked up as a stray by animal control, which wouldn't seem to favor a pure Shepherd.


7 1/2 years ago, I was asked by a VSA friend if I had room to take in this pretty little girl who was brought in as a stray. She's still here, best darn dog I've ever had.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderi always look at it this way (speaking in general, not just in regards to Monica). with bad breeding - ANYTHING is possible... short ears, short coat, curled tail, long legs, small size, white patches, soft ears, etc... but when a dog exhibits _several_ of those traits (and throw a black tongue in there just for kicks)... chances are its got something else in its bloodline.
> 
> think about the thousands of bad breeders who still produce shepherds that are pretty close to standard. its just more likely that someone somewhere however long ago had a mystery parent.


I agree with you. Specially with a breed so inbred as this one, there is a max. of variation available.

I don't know what mix, GSD x mutt is my guess, but not purebred.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Tons of PB shepherds end up in Animal control.


Exactly! Something like 25% of the dogs in shelters are purebred and lots of them are strays. Our group has had purebred stray everythings from Cavs to Giant Schnauzers and everything in between. Stray PB GSDs are incredibly common. Placed as gorgeous a sable working lines GSD as you could want to see today. Came in to a shelter as a stray in NC.









As far as this girl, I can't tell if she's just an off-standard mostly purebred or there's something else in the mix. Genetics are so funny. My nextdoor neighbors have a dog that looks like a mini GSD, slightly less PB looking than this girl, but really a lot like a GSD only smaller. His dad was a GSD but his mom was a purebred Airedale. There's nothing even remotely Airedale about his appearance at all. You'd never guess it in a million years to look at him, so who knows? Beautiful girl anyway and looks very happy.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Well it seems I was a little off on her size and weight as well.

She got her first full vet check today, and she weighed 48lbs. She's not at all skinny though so thats probably about the top weight for her physical size.

So it looks more likely she might well be all GSD and not so far off on size after all.

Bad part, her heartworm test came back very positive. They told me she was positive, but they said she was a year old so I was hoping it wouldn't be very bad. Turns out she's three or so, and has a bigger problem that I was hoping for.

Vet says she'll probably be just fine though, says her heart sounds fine, he wants to wait a couple weeks at least until she is more comfortable with her new world, and says she'll need a two step treatment. One treatment and overnight stay, and another later with a two night stay.

He is pretty confident she won't have any permanent damage from it.

Then in for a teeth cleaning in about 6 months, as her teeth are pretty plaqued up.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MandalayI'm still not completely convinved, though her markings here make her look remarkably like my GSD. The only thing that is throwing me is her back. They are normally either straight across or downward sloping near the tail, and your dogs rear end seems to slope up here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah that's the only thing that throws me too, her back end, her gait, and some mannerisms.

I don't know if I'm interested quite enough to have a DNA test done though..









I have enough cost with the heartworm treatment coming up.

Finally gave her a bath yesterday, wanted to give her a little time to get used to the house and me before I did that. No more dirty kennel smell... woohoo! She's all snuggleable now.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

relaxed or paying attention or training may be where dog carries tail!For most part low tail carry is normal for Jake but -have a squirrel drop on his head or have some fireworks nearby and he has a not only "GAY" tail but a curled husky tail.GIVE me a break Jake has a so called normal hanging GSD tail but I HAVE seen it curled over his back at rare stress times.


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