# Breeder in Rush, NY



## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

In December of 2009 I purchased a puppy from *breeder name removed by Admin* in Rush, NY. When I went to pick him up, was told he had Coccidia. I did get him treated for that. Within a week or so, he was diagnosed with a penis shaft infection. A few weeks later, noticed his tail was deformed, did not want to return him, but did notify the breeder. In April of this year, he started having diahrrea. Notified the breeder. It did not get better with medication and food. Had numerous tests, Texas Panel, etc. After months of tests and medications, got a diagnosis of IBD. The breeder asked for a letter from the vet which I provided. Since that time, they have refused my repeated requests for a full or partial refund and now are not even responding to my e-mails, the last one I got from them said "nothing further to discuss". I have written to AKC and The Genesee Valley Kennell Club, both of which say they cannot help me. My dog is facing medications for life. Currently taking prednisone, sulfasazine, metronidazole and Tylan powder and is finally starting to gain some of the weight he lost. Was down to 75 lbs when he should be nearly 95lbs. He is only ten months old. Has anyone else had an issue with this breeder and do I have any other recourse. They did not offer a health contract when I purchased him.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Based on the number of grammatical errors on their website, I am not surprised they have disappointed you.

Sorry you had a bad experience.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

It is very disappointing as I did do research, found no complaints and one of the members of Genesee Valley Kennel club recommended them since they had purchased one of her dogs. Chance is from Dallas's line. That is why I reported his diagnosis to the AKC, had hoped they had some way of tracking the health of their registered dogs. Apparently not. What is the point of having an AKC registered, pedigreed dog if they don't track the health of the dogs that the breeder sells. So frustrating.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

There are so many byb out there, you really have to do your homework when looking. It is a sad state of affairs that nothing can be done. Even some very reputable breeders occasionally have a health issue pop up in a pup. But they usually 'make it right'. I had a pup from my first litter come up with a transitional vertebrae in the lumbo-sacral area. Never heard of this before and I bet you will not find one contract that will replace a pup if it is diagnosed with this. It is listed on the OFA website. It does cause the dog pain when doing bite work, but other than that, they are fine and have no problems. This condition is noted on OFA certificates, but in no way affects the hip report otherwise and is not listed with the data of the hips on the website. So even in the best of circumstances, with all health screenings done on both parents, you can still have some thing unusual come up.

Good luck with your pup, and I am sorry the pup has to go thru with this.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

All the AKC does is prove that the dog is purebred. It has nothing to do with the dogs health or temperament. The dog can bite every person and dog he meets while being in a wheel chair and can still be AKC registered as long as it's purebred.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

The only thing they offered was to "possibly" work on a new dog. I never wanted to return Chance as I love him dearly and I would not be willing to take the risk of another dog from them. I honestly think the right thing to do would be to give me a partial or full refund. The partner that actually bred the dogs has not even contacted me once regarding this issue.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

With no health guarantee there's nothing you can do and honestly those issues you mentioned don't make the breeder terrible. Coccidia isn't at all uncommon in young pups even when their living conditions are kept reasonably clean. A simple antibiotic and the pup is back on it's feet within the week even though it is an inconvenience it's not a huge red flag. An infected penis shaft also can come about in many ways so again not sure if you can blame the breeder in whole. Then there's the IBD. There's no genetic test for the disease to my knowledge and shepherds happen to be one of the breeds known to be susceptible. I'm sorry you have to deal with this but even if the breeder had a health guarantee I'm not sure these illnesses would be covered under it. Most breeders simply offer to take the dog back and give you a pup from a different litter.

Also how did your vet diagnose IBD? Biopsy isn't even always 100% accurate and there really aren't any definitive tests for the disorder- it's usually what your vet says when worms, parasites, tumors, and other diseases are ruled out. Food allergies can cause IBD so have you tried diagnosing an allergy to food? It's usually an allergy to a protein and there are doggie diets out there that may help you and your pup be weaned off steriods


Hypoallergenic Diet
Here a novel or hydrolyzed protein-based diet is used, the idea being that some of the immunologic stimulation may be from diet. If the patient is on a diet he/she cannot possibly be allergic to then recovery is possible. Some times a sacrificial protein diet is used during the healing process with the expectation that the patient may become allergic to the treatment diet and will be switched to another hypoallergenic diet at the end of the diet trial. Food allergy is definitely a cause of inflammatory bowel disease. For more information on food allergy and how to accomplish a diet trial click here.

Low Residue Diet
Here a diet that is especially easy to digest and absorb is used. These are typically prescription intestinal diets.

High Fiber Diet
Insoluble fibers have been helpful in inflammatory bowel disease. They increase fecal bulk which stimulates more normal motility from the intestine. Slower stool passage results which enhances water absorption. Adding oat bran to the hypoallergenic diet may be helpful.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

I realize AKC has nothing to do with health or temperment, but was hoping they had a way to report complaints and track health issues in a breed so that it does not keep showing up in the line. Just don't want to see those two dogs bred together again and the bitch should not be bred again as she is passing coccidia to every litter she has. All my research has indicated that a bitch with coccidia should not be bred. Even if she is not showing symtoms anymore, she will still pass this on to her pups.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I'm very, very sorry to hear you've had a bad experience.

It sounds to me like there is primarily an issue with the lack of warranty information in your sales contract. A good breeder would and should spell out in his or her contract what kind of warranties are offered against genetic defects and other health issues, and should also spell out what types of remedies - refund, partial refund, replacement, etc. - are offered if there are issues.

Since your contract doesn't seem to spell any of this out - you mentioned that they did not offer a health contract - you very likely will not have any type of recourse in your situation. Unfortunately.

Looking at the breeder's website, I am not getting a very good impression of them. I don't see ANY information on titles, not even something as basic as a CGC, and I very highly doubt any of the dogs have ever been shown or worked in any venue. The only dog I see on the site with accomplishments is Hannah's grandsire (photo shows him winning "Best in Show" at a conformation show). And then they make it a point on Sasha's page to point out that Sasha's pedigree "includes titled generations", like titles are something unusual to have on a German Shepherd.

None of their dogs are listed in the OFA database, either. The only "Randall Ridge" dogs in OFFA are black Labradors. Even Heidelberg's Jenny Oharae isn't listed in the OFA database, though most of the other Heidelberg dogs are - bet this breeder got her before she was old enough to be OFA'd and then just didn't bother.

Though, interestingly enough, they claim to offer a guarantee against "hip dysphasia" (sic). From the website -



> *I also give a two year hip guarantee on all my pups. You must provide X-rays from your veterinarian with the proper proof of hip dysphasia. All of my dogs do however come from generation's of OFA lines.*


IMHO they look/sound like a backyard breeder. Their page on "what a hobby breeder is" is absolutely ridiculous.



> *Loves the breed and can talk at length about the breed's history, background, uses, and ideal type
> Shows litter and other family members in a sanitary environment
> Has a serious investment in dog equipment such as puppy pens, crates and grooming tables and knows how to use it.*


A true hobby breeder has a serious investment in their DOGS - training, competing, showing. Not a couple of pens, crates, and grooming tables. Heck, any halfway decent dog owner owns those ... though a GSD doesn't necessarily require a grooming table.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

If it is a food allergy, a simple blood test will show what the pup is allergic to. It can cost around $300 for the blood work, but it stops the guessing game. That would be a starting point for you. Then you can omit the allergen and see how the pup responds.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

I did all the tests necessary to diagnose the IBD. This is not my first time dealing with this disease. As for the coccidia, female dogs that have had it should not be bred as they can pass it on the their pups and it takes more than a week to take of it. As for the shaft infection in a puppy that young, it is usually from damp and not always clean conditions. Since he got sick at 4 1/2 months of age, I feel a partial refund is warranted. His eosinaphil levels are elevated and his protein levels are down. We did a Texas panel and all the necessary bloodwork. Will not subject him the biopsies as they are invasive and expensive. I have dealt with this disease before and am not uninformed as to medication and food issues. I never said the breeder was terrible, only that they are not willing to work with me on a partial refund. I would never return my dog for a new puppy. Have too much invested in this one and I love him. I have not disparaged the breeder in any way, only stated the facts that they will not work with me and that I wanted to know if anyone else has had an issue with them.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Did you get any type of written health guarantee with the puppy when you purchased him? If not, I think you might be 'stuck'. But then again, I'd try small claims court. 

I would most likely send them a letter certified mail, detailing and sending copies of your vet bills etc, and ask for whatever you want in return, I'd tell them you are giving them a certain time frame to respond, otherwise you will be considering small claims court. 

Good luck with your pooch.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I am interested as to where you got the information that bitches with coccidia should not be bred. I have not heard that before.

And small claims court will prbably not give you back any money without you returning the dog to the breeder since you don't have a contract spelling out any causes for a full or partial refund.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Coccidia isn't transmitted through the bitch... They can get it from things like feces from the mom...how exactly do they get it from a pregnant bitch? It's a simple parasite (relatively) and easy to treat.

Unfortunately, I'm sure they only way you are going to get some kind of money back is if you surrender the dog. If you don't want to do that, I think at this point you are going to have to cut your losses and move on.

From what I'm seeing here, this is not what most people would consider a good and reputable breeder. I would highly recommend sticking around this website and really looking into what makes good an not so good breeders.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

_"the bitch should not be bred again as she is passing coccidia to every litter she has. All my research has indicated that a bitch with coccidia should not be bred."_

Ummmmm.......What????
Straight up this information is incorrect. 
Coccidia is a parasite it is easily transmitted by infected feces (Birds are the most common, since they fly and poop everywhere which means dogs & puppies can pick it up right off the ground) & tissues. It is also easily treated once it has been diagnosed. 
It is NOT a genetic issue and once the breeding bitch in treated she will no longer carry it unless she gets re-contaminated (once again easily transmitted).


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

I did lots of research on Coccidia and everything indicated that the bitch will continue to pass it along to her pups whenever she has a litter. the breeder even admitted to me that this was not the first time they had an issue with it. Just going by the research I found and most of the medical sites I looked at said the bitch should not be bred again as the parasite stays in her system even after treatment it can be passed to the pups. 

Chance seems to responding well with the addition of the Tylan powder and has gained 4 lbs of the nearly ten he lost. Still taking metronidazole, sulfasalzine and a low dose of prednisone (with famotadine to prevent ulcers in the stomach).

I realilze I got "taken", but in my defense, the breeder came recommended by a member of the Genesee Valley Kennel Club and now they won't even back that up or track my complaint. Just want to make sure no one else goes through this. 

this is only one of his issues. His back legs are not great and initially thought he just needed to build up muscle tone and since he had been sick and losing weight, thought that was the cause, realize now it is called "cow hocked". Not severe, but it is definitely noticeable. Also has a deformed tail, shaped like a "V". Was not noticeable till his tail started to grow and get longer and then it became painfully obvious. I did notify them about that as well.

I just want to hear from anyone else that got a dog from them and see if they are having problems. I have heard from one person on here already that knows of a dog from them with the same issues as mine. They got no resolution either. Have contacted some of the trainers I have worked with since I got Chance and have had two negative responses about Randall Ridge dogs as well. Behavorial issues and health issues. so don't think this is a random issue. 

I am not a novice GSD owner and have had GSD's my whole life. My previous GSD had severe Eosinaphil based IBD and I did all the biopsies and had them sent to Texas A&M when he got sick. At that time, I was able to afford it. Shane lived for 7 1/2 years until cancer got him, but I have dealt with this disease before so am very well informed as to symptoms, food and medications. Don't need help with that. I used to even cook his food and add it to his dry food.

I am not trying to offend anyone, but just going by research, vet recommendations and finding out from other pp about their issues with this breeder.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

one of the gsd's I had years ago, also came with coccidia that was passed from the bitch, and I was told what lisgje has researched..A bitch can continue to pass this on to all her litters. The bitch I got mine out of, did according to the breeder. 

Coccidia is sometimes not easy to get rid of and can be contagious. They can keep reinfecting themselves, by stepping in their feces or even the ground if it's infected and licking their feet

I missed the part where you got no health guarantee 

If that's a pic of him in your avatar, he's a handsome fellow, and it's probably a good thing he is in YOUR hands. 

There's probably not much you can do regarding the breeder, except warning anyone who shows an interest in that particular breeder.. Hope you can get some relief for him..


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Thank you so much for supporting what my research showed. Makes me feel better. I knew the coccidia was not a normal issue as the breeder claimed after I did the research. THis was the first time I had ever gotten a puppy with that. But again, this is not the main issue. Thank you so much for your support! Lisa


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I just checked out their website, a thought I had, they list their veternarian on the "home" page, if I were you, I would contact them and ask if they have clients from this breeder with any health issues. 

Since a "club" reffered you, (and sorry I am not impressed with their referral at all) I would write a letter to the club president saying "so and so from your club referred me to so & so breeder, detail your problems, and your disappointment in their referral, lack of breeder support. It most likely will get no monetary compensation or help from the breeder, but atleast you can let them know AGAIN, what a lousy referral they gave you...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no problem, from what I understand of coccidia, of course it's transmittable from other sources, but a 'dam' can be a carrier while not being symptomatic. The woman I got Kodi from (again, gosh back in the early 80's) continued to breed the bitch, (which I am on the shelf about) and atleast told all puppy buyers the puppies were being treated for coccidia and gave out meds for continued treatment. 

I was lucky, in kodi's case, first treatment cleared up with it never to appear again, but again, I do know it can be difficult to get rid of in some cases.

How it's passed, I don't really know the exact in's and out's of that..


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

from what I understand and all the research, the parasite stays in the muscle tissue and that is how it is passed on the puppies. No female who has ever had coccidia should be bred as she will pass it to her pups.

I did write an e-mail to the Genesee Valley Kennel club and since *remove breeder name* is not a member, would not help me even after I wrote that a member of theirs recommended this breeder. Sent an e-mail to the German Shepherd Club of Rochester and have not heard back from them yet. They have a lot of the same members and the same pp that run the organizations, so not expecting much.

I just don't want anyone else to go through this. Obviously, it is all about who you know in these organizations. Can't believe no one will help me at least file a complaint and keep in on record.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I have removed the name of the breeder from this thread. Per the board rules, this type of discussion naming a particular breeder is not allowed. The situation can be discussed, but the name of the breeder must be left out of it.

-Admin


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Out of curiosity, what made them seem reliable to you? Just the recommendation?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I just don't see this as the dog clubs responsibility


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think she's saying it's the club's responsibility, i think she's saying, when anyone goes to a dog club of whatever breed and asks for a "breeder referral",,you kinda expect they are referring you to someone reputable.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I don't think I know of any breeders of German Shepherds in Western NY of the caliber/quality (health/temperament) I would want in the purchase of a dog, except for one working line breeder.

ETA - realizing that's not helpful now to you, but just commenting on the dearth of bombproof and healthy GSDs in the area.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Really because I can think of some


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Maybe we have different definitions then - I am going by the ones I've seen at events, shows, and obedience classes.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I was going by ones I have seen at seminars


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Feel free to PM me - I'd like to know to research and check out in person if people ever need recommendations.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

one of the moderators has removed the name of the breeder. All I did was state the facts as related to my dog from them. If anyone wants to know who they are, please e-mail me and I will let you know. Thought if I just stated the actual facts, I could at least let pp know who they are and to avoid them.

I am not blaming any of the organizations, but since I got a referral from one of them, at least thought that the breeder would be reputable. I talked at length to her and went to see the pups. Did not get any red flags. My dog has also been showing signs of being "cow hocked". Had thought initially that because he was sick and lost weight, he just needed to build more strength in his back legs. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Just feel that they are not being responsible. My main goal is to make sure no one else goes through this. IBD is expensive to diagnose and treat depending on how severe it is. Since he started getting sick at such a young age, felt the breeder should do the right thing and refund some money. The fact that they won't even discuss it after they asked for a letter from the vet is very upsetting.

At the time I was researching them, I found no complaints anywhere and felt comfortable with getting a dog from them. I have since heard about several other pp that have purchased dogs from them with health issues and behavioral issues.

The breeder had told me they had never had a dog with dietary issues and am finding out now that is not the case.

On a positive note, Chance is responding great with the Tylan powder. Gained 4 lbs so far and looking better every day. Have decreased his prednisone by 10 mg each day and hopefully next week will go to every other day. If all goes well, will get him off that and then try and see if we can get him off the metronidazole and sulfasalzine as well. Will take a few months as I don't want to shock his system by going to fast with lowering his meds. My hope is that eventually the Tylan powder will be all he will need. 

Maybe I should have brought him back when I noticed the deformed tail, but at that point I was already "owned" by him and could not possibly give him up. We bonded when he was three weeks old and I went to see him every week. He picked me. Everytime I went to see him he would run over to me and cry to be picked up and would fall asleep on my chest. How could I resist? LOL

Thank you everyone who sent reassuring mail, I truly appreciate it.


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## K9SHOUSE (Jun 8, 2003)

Lisgje,

I'm sorry to hear of everything you went through and are going through. I commend you for keeping your guy and giving him what he needs. I hope you can consider it a lesson learned and I am sure next time you can make a more informed decision. We have all been there as first time owners or dog buyers. The bad or iffy breeders count on your emotional connection to the new puppy so even if the contract has some legit legal/monitary consequences you aren't going to give your pup back.

I lived in the same zip code as your "breeder" till last year and never heard of her or her kennel. It looks like she is a BYB. I also went to the same Vet as she takes her dogs too. The are very reputable and a good place. Just as in people's medical histories, they cannot release info unless the owner authorizes it. The Vets can also make recommendations to owners about not breeding their dogs if there are medical concerns, i.e recommend spay/neuter, but cannot prevent them from breeding their dogs.

Unfortunately, buying a pure breed dog of any kind is buyer beware now a days. Unless you really know what to look for or the red flags; a pretty website, well staged pictures or slick talk can convince you of anything. Kinda like used cars. Gotta look at the production and history ( or pedigree for dogs) behind it and see if certain safety standards (health checks) were followed. You would also want to see if the specific car's earlier models (or Mom and Dad doggie) has any awards or certificates from reputable organizations (show or working titles). Even then there is no guarantee but you hope for the best. 

Organizations like breed clubs are only as good as the people who are in them. Just like any company, they can be filled with people who have less then idealistic intentions or who play into politics and recommend a less then steller breeder (personal friend) or perhaps even have a financial interest in the litter. Rochester and the surrounding areas don't have large breed clubs compared to other cities. Hence the raw breeder selection numbers and puppies available are less. That doesn't mean they are bad or unethical, just short on choices. I'm also not sure of the BARE minimal requirements to be a "club recommended breeder." Do you just pay extra dues, actually take an oath or just promise to push/promote club registration on your puppy buyers? More puppies=more dues=richer club. Does a club member on the committee actually come and look at your breeding facilites and see it meets minimum requirements (like temperture control or cleanliness). Do they ask to see a Vet certificate that the parents do not have crippling diseases or the female is well/young/old enough to breed? Does the club monitor or have a max on how often you breed a female dog (every heat? 1x a year?)? It doesn't mean clubs or breed organizations can't ge a good resource, just do deeper digging and go with more then I opinion.

On that note ask around different places but remember they are opinions. This board is a great place especially of you are buying a dog out of state. Breed rescues are also good. They know which breeders their rescue dogs keep coming from and which breeders don't take back when notified of a dog or work with the rescue to place the dog. Reputable trainers in your area are also great. If they have been doing it awhile, they have evaluated dogs in shelters, worked with private families on problem dogs and/or taught obedience classes and seen the good, the bad and the ugly. All of the aforementioned may not tell you the bad breeders by name but will point you in the right direction.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Thank you for the information. However, I am not a first time owner or buyer. Even with all the research I did, still ended up with a sick dog. Live and learn. I am makin the best of it and it is all about quality of life. I have had lots of experience with IBD with my previous GSD so at least I know how to deal with this. Just had hoped not to go through it again.

Chance did not respond well to decreasing his prednisone, had diahrea within 8 hours. So back to 20 mg a day. When it is under control again, will try to reduce his sulfasazine from 4 x day to 3 and see if that works. Vet and I really are hoping to get him off some of these meds if we can. 

Do you think I should at least let her vet know of the problems I am having? Would it be worth it or would it just cause problems? I certainly don't want to get sued, but think that her vet should know that one of the puppies from that litter is very sick. Any thoughts on that?

Taking Chance in for a weight check tomorrow and hopefully he will have gained some more weight.


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## K9SHOUSE (Jun 8, 2003)

I'm not sure the Vet could really do anything about the IED or anything genetic being passed on besides recommending the dog be sterilized. If it was something that could be treated like parasites or prescreened and treated before breeding then maybe they could make a note on the chart to do that.

If it was me I would contact in writing (with signed receipt) the specific club you called and make a formal complaint to them about the breeder and the member who recommended her. I would also contact the next level (state?) and include your complaint if this breeder is on the club's recommended list. I would save all emails and to the best of your recollection write down conversations and dates of all phone calls. Save all paperwork, receipts, cell phone calls on bill, etc.

The only other thing would be to contact the Better Business Burea or Roch. Chamber of Commerce or similar and make a complaint. I'm not sure what can be done, but if enough people complain or she burns the wrong person with influence at least it's on public file. You can also complain on consumer web boards for the area or state. That way if someone searches her kennel then your complaint will be seen. I don't think animal control could do anything unless she is over dogs (3) and doesn't have a kennel license. Lollypop probably can't do anything either but it wouldn't hurt to call and see if they have any advice or can refer you to someone who was in a similar situation.

Just watch your wording carefully. You can testify for your experience and dog's health with your evidence but other owners need to speak for themselves.

The final option would be to speak to a laywer and see what your rights are concerning the contract and chances in civil court. In the end it probably would break even with the total fees. So that would be a financial loss. However her kennel would be in the public record for having a complaint and court case. I guess it depends how mad you are and if the time is worth it to you.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the great advice and words of encouragement. I have started a new thread to keep up to date on his progress. Anyone with a dog with IBD- please respond. Chance is doing so much better!


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Word of mouth is the best. Turns out my hairdresser had two different pp ask about my specific breeder and she told them about my problems and they went elsewhere. Makes me feel good. My hairdresser knows a lot of pp and it is good to know that because of my issues, she was able to stop two pp from buying a dog from them.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Lucy Dog said:


> *All the AKC does is prove that the dog is purebred. It has nothing to do with the dogs health or temperament. The dog can bite every person and dog he meets while being in a wheel chair and can still be AKC registered as long as it's purebred*.


That's 100% true and something most people don't realize. The AKC is merely a registry, there are no health guarantees with a registration.

This is why it's SO important to not only do our research when looking for a breeder. But learn what we are researching. Talking to other's who've purchase puppies from them over the years and their experience with the breeder is key. 

We even made a permanent sticky on this forum to try to help people looking http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html and it's all about stuff we have to do BEFORE we even start talking to breeders. Because once we have that adorable puppy in the house, and love them so much, there are limited options.

PLUS (and this is the part the get's me the most angry) however much $$$$ I just gave THAT breeder supported their CRAP breeding program to put out unhealthy pups to other unsuspecting new owners. When if I had known better I'd have been able to use that money to support a breeder who truly is doing all they can to IMPROVE the breed and their lines.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

I have been in touch with someone else who got a dog from the same breeder, about a year and a half before me. Turns out they have the same sire!!!!!!! This person had let them know about health and temperment issues and they did not help her. She had to give the dog up due to severe issues. So the breeder flat out lied to me when I asked if they had ever had any health or behavioral issues with their dogs. I am so angry that when Chance was having problems, they told me no one had ever complained before me and they never had any problems with their dogs prior to my complaint. The worst part is they have the same sire, that dog should never be bred again. and the fact that the bitch is passing coccidia to every litter she has. I am so upset.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

I have basically run up against a brick wall with my complaints. Called the breeder that sold the sire to my breeder and, granted I lost my temper big time, but only because she kept bringing up the coccidia, which has nothing to do with my dog's current situation. Why doesnt anyone want to know about sick puppies from litters? So frustrated with the whole situation and doubt I will ever buy another GSD from any breeder in this area ever again. I am left with a dog that is cowhocked, has IBD, a compromised immune system, skin problems and no one in the GSD breeding arena here seems to really care. I am disheartened and have lost my faith in the whole idea of ever getting a purebred healthy Shepherd again.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> and no one in the GSD breeding arena here seems to really care.


Honest question....what do you expect anybody on this forum to do?

I am sad that you've lost your faith....it's hard. But good breeders and dogs are out there.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Did they offer any guarantee? If so then you could take them to small claims court.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm a little confused on what you want the GSD breeders here to do also? You bought a dog with no health guarantee. 

It's like buying a broken car without a warranty and blaming all the people that own Fords. 

Instead of expecting someone on a forum to fix it, go talk to a lawyer.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

They said on their website that they breed for health and temperment. Did not ask anyone here to do anything, but thought a responsible breeder would at least care if they have a problem with their breeding choices. Especially since the Sire came from a member of the GVKC. Again, thought this was a place to share experiences and get advice. Did not know I was going to get slammed for buying a sick puppy. How the heck is that my fault? I did my research before buying my dog. They told me they had never had any health issues with their puppies and I have now found that not to be true. Just wanted to make sure no one else goes through what I have. I am not blaming other GSD breeders, just them for not being responsible and owning up to the fact that there is a problem. The breeder came recommended from a member of GVKC. Thought that was what I was supposed to do, get referrals. I did. So please don't compare my dog to a car. Not the same thing at all. For all of you that have been supportive, thank you. I appreciate it. for the rest, you are not in my shoes. The way I have been treated by both breeders has just soured the whole experience for me and the way some of the pp on here seem to want to blame the buyer. I give up.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lisgje said:


> *no one in the GSD breeding arena here seems to really care.*



Nobody on this thread has bashed you. Nor has anyone blamed you. Xeph and I just said that we don't understand how it is the responsibility of any of the breeders here because of your above statement. Your statement certainly implies that you expected the breeders on here to something about your problem. I am confused as to what you might have expected them to do.

I'm sorry you bought a sick puppy but you were given good input all through this thread. Not sure why you think anyone here is blaming you for your puppy being sick. 

The only thing I can say is that the responsibility to do the research does fall back on you. So my analogy certainly fits the bill, whether it uses a car or not. You don't really think you are the only person in the world that has a sick dog, do you? Don't lay the "you aren't in my shoes" line on anyone here because many people have come here with sick animals to find a solution to help their dog.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

When I wrote "here" I was not referring to the forums, sorry about that, but was referring to all the organizations (in the rochester area, that is what I meant by "here") I contacted to voice my concerns. Not one of the organizations I contacted, including GVKC where the referral came from gave any help. I DID do my research but if I get incorrect information, that is not my fault. I never said I was the only one with a sick dog. I do have a right to my own opinion on here, or so I thought. My issue is that when I got the referral, that particular breeder had a previous complaint and still referred me to the breeder I got my dog from. I am done with this thread as I am tired of explaining myself. Fact is, I have a very sick dog whose sire came from Breeder A who referred me to breeder B since breeder B bought that dog from breeder A. There had been issues that were reported to both breeder A and B about a previous litter that has the same sire in common as my dog. Obviously , a problem. Neither breeder A or B would listed to me when I let them know about my dog's health issues and that is what I am upset about. Facts are my dog has IBD, is cowhocked, has a deformed tail, a compromised immune system and now skin problems. Not a sign of good breeding and very upset that both breeders don't seem the least bit interested. My dog nearly died in August and I have not heard from his breeder since I gave them the diagnosis of IBD and asked for a partial refund since he got sick at such a young age, 4 1/2 months. I kept them informed from the beginning and they were the ones that asked for the letter from my vet and then basically wanted nothing more to do with me. I am not interested in having a back and forth over this. Just don't want anyone else to buy puppies from them. Again, I am done with this thread.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think that what is learned from this thread is to do MORE research. Never, ever, rely on one person's opinion. Unless you have complete and abosolute trust in the person making the recommendation. Just because someone is involved in a dog club does not make them honest, ethical, a good breeder, nor a good person. You keep saying you did your research, but it doesn't really seem like you did. Or at least what my opinion is of research. 

Sorry you're going through this with your dog, but I hope YOU are taking something out of this other than "don't trust breeders." 

It's great that you are sticking by this dog through all his problems.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Have you talked to a lawyer? There wasn't a health guarantee but the website stating they breed for health and emailed correspondence you have may be enough. If nothing else, it's certainly at the very least false advertising.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

lisgje said:


> Even with all the research I did, still ended up with a sick dog. Live and learn.


I checked out the website for the breeder. NOT IMPRESSED, no pedigrees listed, no mention of titles or health certification testing done. I love how she says that she even had a dog all the way from Texas LOL. The pictures are pretty bad, it is hard to get a look at the dogs. Oh, and love how she talks about her many years of research, going to dog shows. Sheesh, I go to car races and watch all the time, doesn't mean I can drive the cars much less build one!
Maybe you never saw the website, and went straight to the source, but the website screams byb at best.
Oh, this is classic-
Most of my litter's of pups I have had in my home so I can keep a close eye on them to make sure they are provided the very best care. MOST? Do you pay extra if you got one from the ones in the house?
Oh, and I wonder if Jimmy Moses gave her permission to use his pic on the page about Hanna, methinks not. :shocked:


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

bocron said:


> I checked out the website for the breeder. NOT IMPRESSED, no pedigrees listed, no mention of titles or health certification testing done. I love how she says that she even had a dog all the way from Texas LOL. The pictures are pretty bad, it is hard to get a look at the dogs. Oh, and love how she talks about her many years of research, going to dog shows. Sheesh, I go to car races and watch all the time, doesn't mean I can drive the cars much less build one!
> Maybe you never saw the website, and went straight to the source, but the website screams byb at best.
> Oh, this is classic-
> Most of my litter's of pups I have had in my home so I can keep a close eye on them to make sure they are provided the very best care. MOST? Do you pay extra if you got one from the ones in the house?
> Oh, and I wonder if Jimmy Moses gave her permission to use his pic on the page about Hanna, methinks not. :shocked:


I was actually just going to come back to this thread to mention that. There was somebody asking on our local Craigslist pet section about people's opinions on a GSD breeder in Rush.. so I checked their site out again..

I'm so sorry OP but just based off the site and the general vagueness and lack of knowledge displayed on that site I would have run far, far away. If I were breeding dogs i'd make sure to have all the info listed as well as good pictures so potential puppy owners could get a good idea.. I know pictures don't always do a dog justice and we can't all be super adept at the whole website making thing but.. ugh.

And it's really very unfortunate that the GVKC is recommending them.. there's better breeders in the area that they could be suggesting instead.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

VomBlack...I saw that on Craigslist...I emailed them and advised them to come to this site and do some research on breeders. Not just that one they found. I was actually wondering if it was the OP that placed the ad on craigslist.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Yeah I wasn't sure, and the breeder wasn't mentioned and I never got a response to my email, but I figured it couldn't help to mention it to them anyway.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Was not me who posted on Craigs list.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Yes, it is very upsetting that a member of GVKC recommended this breeder. THink it is because she sold them my dogs sire. I was told to go to local organizations for referrals and based on that and conversations with the breeder, seeing the puppies, thought it would be ok. I have since found out that not only does my dog have the same sire as another sick dog, but the same bitch as well. So they knew of a previous problem with a litter from these two dogs and did not tell me and the breeder from GVKC STILL recommended them to me. Regardless of what happened, it is what it is now. It has become so stressful for me that I just can't go any further with complaints. 

I just want to spread the word to stay away from BOTH of these breeders as they both kept information from me when I asked for it and knew of previous problems with breeding these two dogs together.

Lesson learned. It is very disheartening when you can't even trust the local dog clubs to give you a reputable referral for a breeder. That has been my point all along.

My dog is a wonderful dog and I love him dearly. But after having a dog with IBD before and telling both breeders what I had gone through with him it hurts me more than anyone can understand that they would withhold that information about health issues when I asked for it when looking for a new puppy after my dog died. The cowhocked issue was also brought to both of their attentions previously as well, another reason these two dogs should have never been bred again.

Just a question, if, for example, breeder A sells a dog to breeder B and breeder B sells puppies from breeder A's dog (sire) does breeder A get a commission..... just wondering if that is why.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> if, for example, breeder A sells a dog to breeder B and breeder B sells puppies from breeder A's dog (sire) does breeder A get a commission..... just wondering if that is why.


No, not unless the stud dog was sold to breeder B under those conditions (or such a thing as a co-ownership).


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Have a feeling that is the situation, when breeder A referred me to breeder B and I told breeder A I was getting a puppy from breeder B, and said how much I liked breeder B's dogs, she made a point of reminding me that the sire was "her" dog. I did not pick up on that and guess maybe I should have. Again, lesson learned.

It is still so upsetting that this breeder can still register with AKC even though they are breeding dogs with problems. I have learned so much from this experience. Unfortunately, most of it is negative. AKC really does not mean much, not more than the paper it is written on. So sad.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Still goes back to not trusting one recommendation. You got one and there were a MILLION other red flags flying about. Have to the responsibility for YOU. One recommendation is not where you should have stopped. I managed to look at the site before it got removed from the thread...there was NOTHING good on it.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

I realize I have obviously made a mistake and take responsibility for that. But the ultinmate responsibililty is with these two breeders for knowingly selling dogs they know have health and physical problems. That is where the "ultimate" responsibility lies. Not with the buyer who is looking for a healthy, good tempered dog, but with the breeder that knowingly sells dogs that are not healthy!

Also, how many times do I have to say, I got more than one recommendation. How can I be held responsible for being mislead. It is the breeders that do not tell the truth, have dog clubs backing them up when that is supposedly where you are supposed to go to first and no complaints filed (or rather, no clubs keeping a record of complaints) by AKC, clubs, etc to find out if anything is wrong. I was not aware of this forum when looking for a dog, or I would have asked here. But again, on here, we are not allowed to mention breeders names. Stop blaming the buyers and start blaming the specific breeders that are breeding substandard, unhealthy dogs. That is where the blame truly is. I know there are reputable breeders out there, but if the local clubs and members don't refer buyers to them and instead refer buyers to breeders that they may have a financial interest in, how is a buyer supposed to know that?

I have learned from this whole experience. Buyer beware, even if the recommendations come from the local dog clubs, kennel clubs or breed clubs.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> But again, on here, we are not allowed to mention breeders names.


You are if you're just asking a question or want a referral.

And many clubs actually have a caveat that they are NOT endorsing any of the breeders listed on the website. These are simply people that have asked and/or have paid a fee to be listed as a breeder in the area.

This is from the GSDCA Breeder referral page:These listings are intended to serve as an informational resource and are provided for your convenience. *The breeder listings and classified ads are paid advertising and do not constitute a complete list of all breeders of GSDs in the United States. *Many breeders are members of one or more Regional Club but are not listed in the advertising section.

*The GSDCA does not endorse or warrant the animals available from the breeders on this page.* The GSDCA urges users to exercise care in selecting any German Shepherd Dog breeder, including requesting and checking references of the breeder. You should check with the individual breeders regarding the terms of any warranties or guarantees that they may offer on their animals. We urge you to request a written contract when purchasing a puppy and to discuss with the breeder their commitment to the GSDCA's "Breeder's Code of Ethics".​Underlined emphasis is mine.

Official source:
http://gsdca.org/breeders-classifieds


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, did you ask the breeder any questions when you were looking to purchase the pup from them?


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

Can someone PM the name of the breeder please? I know the area quite well and used to make the commute a few times a week for training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lisgje said:


> I am left with a dog that is cowhocked, has IBD, a compromised immune system, skin problems and no one in the GSD breeding arena here seems to really care. I am disheartened and have lost my faith in the whole idea of ever getting a purebred healthy Shepherd again.


This is depressing. It's not that no one cares, but what are you expecting from us? No one in this thread has sided with the breeder, but just based on the web site alone, a lot of people are not surprised. Threads like this pop up all the time here, people getting attached to a puppy and taken for a ride by a breeder who lies and doesn't do any training or health screening. Unfortunately you have no legal recourse because you have no health warranty or contract. Did that not come up in your research or questioning of the breeder? The lesson here is not to never get a GSD again but to make sure to get one from a reputable breeder. I think being angry at the breed and this board and the AKC is misplaced. The information you get from referrals and the breeder is only going to be as thorough as the questions you are asking. Did you ask about training? Titles? Health certifications? Contract? Health warranty? These breeders only exist because people give them money for puppies. The problem lies with the demand, not the supply.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think its a lot simpler than that. Its about choices The breeder didn't offer a contract -so I guess if the breeder wanted to he or she could have offered a refund but they didn't. Ultimately you decided to go with a breeder that didn't offer a contract--which I don't think is a terrible choice. So the puppy has all these issues-I think the breeder offerred to take it back-don't remember-you could have returned it-most people don't really want to do that though they love their dogs-Don't know of any breeders that offer a full refund If the breeder is breeding dogs that they know have genetic problems -its a small dog world people talk-but please don't pm me the name of your breeder I don't want to know-I do hope that you enjoy your puppy though


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

I never blamed the breed or anyone on this forum, again what I meant was that the specific club that I got my recommendation from was not responsive to my complaint, as I said before. just blaming unreputable breeders and the members of clubs who recommend them. They NEVER offered to to take him back until I got the diagnosis from the vet and then said "we can possibly work on a new puppy". No mention of bringing him back, ever. By then he was 8 months old and had been sick for four months. After what I went through, would never consider a new puppy from them. Why take that chance again? All I asked for was a partial refund due to his health issues he got at such a young age. Since he has IBD, is very cowhocked, has a deformed tail and skin problems now, just wanted to make sure no one else buys a puppy from them. They were aware of a problem breeding these two dogs together as I have been in touch with someone else that got a puppy from them, with the same health and physical issues (the same sire and ****) who complained to them more than a year before I bought mine, yet they continue to beed these two dogs.

So again, I have never blamed anyone here or the breed, just after having two GSD's with IBD, I am leary of getting another one in the future.

Also, I don't and have not PM 'd anyone the name of the breeder unless they ask for the information.

I have taken responsibility for making a mistake, but they knowingly bred two dogs that had previous problems in a litter and the ultimate blame is with them.

I am moving forward and trying to keep him healthy and happy. Best that I can do.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

holland said:


> I think its a lot simpler than that. Its about choices The breeder didn't offer a contract -so I guess if the breeder wanted to he or she could have offered a refund but they didn't. Ultimately you decided to go with a breeder that didn't offer a contract--which I don't think is a terrible choice. So the puppy has all these issues-I think the breeder offerred to take it back-don't remember-you could have returned it-most people don't really want to do that though they love their dogs-Don't know of any breeders that offer a full refund If the breeder is breeding dogs that they know have genetic problems -its a small dog world people talk-but please don't pm me the name of your breeder I don't want to know-I do hope that you enjoy your puppy though


 
I appreciate your response, but am disheartened that you would not want to know who the breeder is, so at least, if their name came up, you could at least tell that person there have been issues. Not asking you to go into detail at all, but not wanting to know the name of a breeder that is breeding unhealthy dogs is a bit disconcerting, but I respect your choice on that. Also, they never offered to take him back and only backpedalled on that issue after I asked for a partial refund and then refused to correspond with me. As I said before, he is not the first puppy from these two dogs that has problems, has happened before and they were aware of it. Also, the fact that the breeder from GVKC was also aware of the problems and still recommended them to me makes me sick. The sire was her dog, so I guess that made it ok? Just disgusted by both of them.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

If you still want to breeder bash, I'd recommed going over to pedigreedatabase.com. You can beetch your hearts content over there, but be warned: You WILL be flamed as well.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> If you still want to breeder bash, I'd recommed going over to pedigreedatabase.com. You can beetch your hearts content over there, but be warned: You WILL be flamed as well.


 
Thanks for the info. I am not worried about getting bashed. I admit, I made a mistake and take responsibility for that. I am taking care of my dog and doing everything for him and not giving him up, so I can stand by that. Just don't want anyone else to go through the emotional and financial hardship I am experiencing right now. That is my main goal. Nothing more, nothing less. Thanks. besides, I have done nothing but state the actual facts of his issues, everything I have stated on here can be backed by medical records.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why did you resurrect this thread to reply to a post from a month ago that you had already replied too? It's kind of like you just want to keep it going? Or to get attention?

Why don't you just continue to focus on your dog?


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

So sorry, did not realize there was a time limit on going back and responding to specific posts after thinking about it for awhile. Certainly did not mean to offend you.


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## LaWFuLEviL (May 18, 2012)

I am glad that I came across this thread. BUT due to the forum "rules" I have no idea what breeder you guys are talking about. How m I suppose to know


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You can click on lisgje's name and click on send a private message - hopefully she will see that. 

I have to say...I do not know of any GOOD breeders of the type you are looking for in WNY (if I remember your intro post - coatie, WGSL). Ones who know and understand genetics, balance, temperament, the breed, do things with their dogs, health test, etc. You might want to post in the looking for a breeder section if you haven't already.


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## LaWFuLEviL (May 18, 2012)

Thank you ! I have sent her a private message.

I'll make a post in the thread you have suggested !


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

lisgje said:


> I have basically run up against a brick wall with my complaints. Called the breeder that sold the sire to my breeder and, granted I lost my temper big time, but only because she kept bringing up the coccidia, which has nothing to do with my dog's current situation. Why doesnt anyone want to know about sick puppies from litters? So frustrated with the whole situation and doubt I will ever buy another GSD from any breeder in this area ever again. *I am left with a dog that is cowhocked, has IBD, a compromised immune system, skin problems and no one in the GSD breeding arena here seems to really care.* I am disheartened and have lost my faith in the whole idea of ever getting a purebred healthy Shepherd again.


We all do care. This has gone on for pages to show we care.

What we do NOT do is allow specific breeder bashing. If someone feels that another member needs information that may be negative about a specific breeder YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD that you may 100% absolutely present that information in a PM. So if your goal is to give that info, you still can and know you still can.

What we care about are the GOOD breeders! 

So we prefer to promote and discuss and recomment the GOOD breeders (and why) openly on the forum. We have tons of info available to people BEFORE they get a puppy on what to look for in a responsible breeder so they do NOT get 'tricked' into purchasing one that has so many issues like it appears your dog does WITH NO SUPPORT FROM THE BREEDER.

People need to read and plan and educate themselves about the breed in general and a 'responsible' breeder in specific. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html <--- has great information.

KEEPING IN MIND that even the best breeders in the world are still dealing with the crapshoot of genetics in the mix so an issue may crop up in a litter due to circumstances beyond their control. The difference is a GOOD breeder will learn from the issue, keep in touch and follow up as the pup grows, and fully support the puppy owner for the life of the dog LIKE IT SAYS IN THE PUPPY CONTRACT.

Rather than complaining and being frustrated about the mistake you made with going with this breeder in the first place.... we want EVERYONE to learn from your mistake and focus on the GOOD breeders and why they are good. So they are supported, they are able to continue with their breeding program, and they have happy puppy owners.


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