# Probiotics question



## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

After the last bout with the diarrhea/pudding poops, I felt like the probiotic tablets the vet gave us seemed to really help. We were prescribed Propectalin tablets, about 5 days worth I believe. We are starting to get very soft stools again and occasional diarrhea. I'd like to try some probiotics to see if will help before her next vet appt in a week. 

Those who give your dogs probiotics - what do you use and is it daily? I know several of you always recommend that Gut cleanse or Sundae stuff(please excuse me for butchering the names I can't remember ATM), but are those just a quick fix or is it something given on a regular basis?
As always, thank you all for the sound advice here and comforting words.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I give probiotics every day. I like Sunday Sundae, GutSense and Dr. Mercola probiotics. I rotate through them with all of my dogs except for the one who has major GI issues... he doesn't tolerate anything but the Dr. Mercola probiotics.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Out of curiosity, what are you feeding her?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Propectalin tablets contain mostly Kaolin which is clay. Similar to things like human kaopectate/immodium. Not something I'd keep them on permanently. 

Gypsy's probiotic list is a good one!

I give probiotics every day. 
Since over 70% of the immune system lies in the gut, it a good idea to keep it very healthy. 

Yes, I'm curious too..... what is the exact brand name of food and treats you are using, and any other supplements?

Moms


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay , so what you have been prescribed , Propectalin , is basically kaopectate and a singular strain of bacteria which is the same one in Fortiflora , Enterococcus faecium. Speaking to formulators at some labs this is a controversial strain and is not allowed in some facilities. 


I can speak for Sunday Sundae , -- 14 strains of probiotics - that's diversity -- including a recent increase in the amount of lactobacillus rahmnosus , and having super strain 
16 digestive enzymes , ingredients which are anti inflammatory, heal the mucosal lining of the gut , stimulate glutathione production, act as natural pain killers (MSM USA sourced) , nourish , and make comfortable .
Prebiotics are included to create a synbiotic formula.

Recognize that Sunday Sundae goes far beyond being a straight source of probiotics.

I like the other products mentioned and am happy to be in the company of them .

I too would like to know what you are feeding the dog.

The new label will reflect the entire list of probiotics and digestive enzymes .


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I ran out of Fortiflora and switched to a high quality Greek yogurt. It's less expensive.


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## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

@GypsyGhost we are currently on Nutro large breed puppy. We have switched her food once since bringing her home so I may question the vet about that again at next visit, I'm sure he will suggest something if we think it's truly the food. I just don't know how to effectively rule that out quite yet. Guess all we can do is switch and see.


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## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

@Momto2GSDs the treats we are currently using are Zuke's mini naturals and Crazy Dog Train Me treats(because both are small and easy to work with) for when we are working with her on obedience and when she's at class. I also give her half a piece of dentastix when I do give it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You got your dog to eat Zuke's? When I tried to give them to Jax, she spit them out. So I persisted! I just kept trying. Until she tipped her head back and spit it AT me.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

lalabug said:


> @*Momto2GSDs* the treats we are currently using are Zuke's mini naturals and Crazy Dog Train Me treats(because both are small and easy to work with) for when we are working with her on obedience and when she's at class. I also give her half a piece of dentastix when I do give it.


Have you tried Slippery Elm?

Crazy Dog Train Me Treats Ingredients: Pork Liver, Barley Flour, Whole Ground Potatoes, *Sucrose (SUGAR!!!!! B A D for gut), *Chicken (sensitivities for some dogs) (or Beef or Bacon), Potato Starch, Glycerine,* Wheat Bran*, Gelatin, *Rice Flour,* *Flax Seed* (causes gut problem for some dogs), Salt, Natural Smoke Flavor, Garlic Powder, Phosphoric Acid, Potassium Sorbate, Mustard, Citric Acid, Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary. *TOO many grains.....feeds yeast in gut!

Zukes *sold out to Nestles/Purina.....I don't trust ingredients!

*Dentastix: *RICE *FLOUR*, *WHEAT STARCH*, GLYCERIN, GELATIN, GUM ARABIC, CALCIUM CARBONATE, NATURAL POULTRY FLAVOR, POWDERED CELLULOSE (sawdust), SODIUM TRIPOLYPHOSPHATE, IODIZED SALT, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, VITAMINS (CHOLINE CHLORIDE, L-ASCORBYL-2-POLYPHOSPHATE [SOURCE OF VITAMIN C], D-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, MORE grains! AND made by Pedigree!
 

You can make your own! Here's my recipe.
 *EASY HOMEMADE MEAT TREATS*

*Items needed:*
*Non Stick Fry Pan*
*Large Round Steak or Pork Chops or Calves Liver or Lamb or Goat or any whole meats your dog can eat.*
*Scissors*
1. Trim off all fat on the edges and in-between and if it has bone, remove that too. If using Calves Liver, thaw, and blot well with paper towel to remove excess blood.
2. Take a pair of scissors (outstanding tool for cutting meat) and cut the meat into manageable pieces.
3. Choose a fry pan (non stick works the easiest) that will hold the amount of meat you bought, and give the pan a small drop of oil or a quick spray of Pam.
4. Heat the pan until really hot and drop in the meat pieces in to sizzle. Keep your heat high but don’t leave the pan unattended.
5. Sprinkle on a little garlic powder or garlic salt if desired.
6. Let it sizzle for about a minute or two then flip over. Braise the other side (pour off the juice if there is too much) and remove from pan when the middle is pink (especially the Liver or it will crumble). Place on to paper towel, blot and let cool.
7. Take your scissors and cut all of the meat in strips about ¼” wide. Now take those strips and cut small pieces about the size of a ½ of a dime, (or whatever size you prefer).
8. Place small amounts into sealable snack baggies, then place those baggies into a sealable freezer baggie and place in freezer. When you need them, take out one or two baggies, place them in the frig and they will un-thaw. Of course the dogs love them frozen too, if you forget! They will unthaw quickly on the cupboard or in your pocket for training.
The process takes a little time but saves a lot of $$ and the dogs go crazy for them!


I would choose a higher quality food and one without ANY type of chicken items including eggs, fat, cartilage etc., or flax or grains or yeast in it, which can cause problems with some dogs.

Nutro: 
Jim Eastin, supplier quality assurance scientist for Nutro Company, presented a seminar titled:
“The Importance of Rendered Ingredients in Pet Foods” at the October 26, 2011 Pet Food Industry symposium. He referred to poultry by-products as 
"value-added ingredients" and described rendering as "environmentally responsible" by converting by-products into ingredients Nutro uses in its pet food products. 
Nutro Co. scientist discusses using poultry by-products as petfood ingredients




Moms


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I make milk kefir (THANKS SAPHIRE!!) and give my dogs about a 1/3-1/2 cup of it daily. It is much cheaper than store bought probi's and my dogs tolerate it well. 
The great thing about making your own is that the grains multiply over time and then you can share your grains with others. I have shared grains to about 10 people in the past 10 months. So paying it forward is fun, and then they share...everyone sees a benefit to offering kefir to their dogs and many drink it themselves.

As far as treats or tracking bait goes, I usually get fresh chicken breast and grill or bake it. About $5 bucks and I have two pounds of pea sized treats to use for tracking and training. It may sound expensive but I'd rather give something easy to eat and not with fillers. I mix the chicken up with either cheese cubes or steak, so the chicken doesn't get boring over time.

If you aren't familiar with kefir, here is an article: http://www.livestrong.com/article/449940-what-are-the-benefits-of-kefir/


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Kibble never worked for my guy with GI problems. It was a LOOOOOOONNNNGGG road to recovery for him. We finally found Stella & Chewy's commercial raw (after trying regular raw and a million kibbles, none of which worked for him). For whatever reason, it works for him. Wish it wasn't so expensive, but at least he's healthy. Food issues are the worst. I hope you're able to figure out what's going on quickly and easily.

One other supplement I would recommend is The Honest Kitchen Perfect Form. It has slippery elm in it, and you can just mix it into her food with a little water. It has performed some serious miracles for my guy. Good luck to you.


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## abbiemyfriend (Nov 12, 2016)

We use fortiflora,i split a pack for 2 days .Worked right away!Now we use it 2 times a week.Our rescue had worms and tapeworms,never could get her gut right after ,always had the poops even with the worms gone,just not right.This has helped so much!Poops are firm and solid now!I am so glad we tried fortiflora.I believe chewy and most on line ordering will refund your money if now satisfied.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

*Ingredients - Canine Fortiflora by Purina:* *Animal digest*, Enterococcus faecium, L-ascorbyl- 2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin E supplement, zinc proteinate, beta-Carotene, salt, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite. B-4582


Appendix - Dog Food Samples Used in CVM Pentobarbital Surveys and Analytical Results = “There appear to be associations between rendered or hydrolyzed ingredients and the presence of pentobarbital in dog food. The ingredients Meat and Bone Meal (MBM), Beef and Bone Meal (BBM), Animal Fat (AF), and *Animal Digest (AD)* are rendered or hydrolyzed *from animal sources that could include euthanized animals*”.
This has never been recanted to my knowledge.

Moms


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

I make my own Greek yogurt, and put a spoonful in the dogs' food daily, if I have some made! Sometimes I run out.


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## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

@Momto2GSDs thank you so much as always - you are a wealth of knowledge! I haven't tried slippery elm yet, can I just order it online? 
@LuvShepherds & @maxtmill can I just feed her store bought Greek yogurt occasionally?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

lalabug said:


> @Momto2GSDs thank you so much as always - you are a wealth of knowledge! I haven't tried slippery elm yet, can I just order it online?
> @LuvShepherds & @maxtmill can I just feed her store bought Greek yogurt occasionally?


That's what I do. I give some daily.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

You can get it on line, but also at a local health food store (NOT GNC).

Slippery Elm: “It is a soothing nutritive herb which is perfectly suited for sensitive or inflamed mucous membrane lining of the digestive system. The bark contains mucilage and tannins that act as demulcent (relieves irritation), emollient (calmative), protectant, and astringent. You might think of it as a soothing internal bandage coating the digestive tract for its entire length.” Dr Yasson


One brand in health food stores is called NOW.


*If plain Slippery Elm Powder is used: = *1/4th teaspoon per 10 pounds of body weight, given 1 hour before meals. You may mix with a small amount of plain canned pumpkin or chicken broth, or plain, non sweetened yogurt or keefer.

*If capsules: *2 capsules one hour before meals for adult dog. 



For your consideration: 

In Traditional Chinese Medicine, Duck is a cooling food to the body. Nature's Variety Instinct, which is readily available at Petco or Petsmart, makes a Duck limited ingredient kibble that is approved for all life stages. It also does not contain any of the ingredients I mentioned.
http://www.instinctpetfood.com/product/instinct-grain-free-limited-ingredient-kibble-dog-food-duck 





Moms


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Sunday Sundae does have slippery elm.
NOW is a good brand if you want to buy it as a stand alone. Powder is better than capsules.


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## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

Thanks everyone! Hopefully we can get this cleared up or figured out!


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

You are not the only one having an issue with Nutro!

CarrieJo (Quote 1/20/17 – 11:08pm) Long story short I think I got a bad batch of kibble. So I am switching food cold turkey yea I know you shouldn't but when you have 5 dogs throwing up since the new bag was opened I cannot in good faith buy another bag of the same thing so I figure their tummies might not like the switch so adding pumpkin in hopes of keeping them from having problems. *searched on the internet and apparently I am not the only one who recently had trouble with this brand. *So much for feeling safe with a brand.


Jenny720 (Quote 1/21/17 – 6:12am) What brand was it? 


CarrieJo (Quote 1/22/17 - 11:59pm) It was *Nutro *Ultra Puppy. 


Thread location: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/682433-question.html#post8314289 


Moms


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Thanks- Moms! 
We used gut sense and perfect form from honest kitchen. I will also get Sunday/sundae which I heard nothing but good things about. The probiotics helped so much when we got our new pup Luna who had some soft stool which subsided quickly. We gave it everyday. I will use probiotics a few times a week I will also use goats milk.


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## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

Momto2GSDs said:


> You are not the only one having an issue with Nutro!
> 
> CarrieJo (Quote 1/20/17 – 11:08pm) Long story short I think I got a bad batch of kibble. So I am switching food cold turkey yea I know you shouldn't but when you have 5 dogs throwing up since the new bag was opened I cannot in good faith buy another bag of the same thing so I figure their tummies might not like the switch so adding pumpkin in hopes of keeping them from having problems. *searched on the internet and apparently I am not the only one who recently had trouble with this brand. *So much for feeling safe with a brand.
> 
> ...


Oh wow... I will def have to question the vet about switching when we go back. I feel like he may have already mentioned Purina Pro Plan or one of the Science Diets... Moms, what's your input on those as far as kibble goes? @Momto2GSDs


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

I've used Sunday Sundae, GutSense and Adored Beast Healthy Gut. All good.
I'd consider switching the food.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

lalabug said:


> Oh wow...* "I will def have to question the vet about switching when we go back."
> 
> This is NOT something I would wait to change! With proof of other complaints and SICK dogs, you have no idea what is wrong with the food!!! Could end up being dangerous for your dog!** *
> *
> ...


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

These pictures speak for themselves!

























Moms


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

lalabug said:


> @Momto2GSDs thank you so much as always - you are a wealth of knowledge! I haven't tried slippery elm yet, can I just order it online?
> @LuvShepherds & @maxtmill can I just feed her store bought Greek yogurt occasionally?



I imagine some plain store bought Greek yogurt would be fine, as long as it didn't contain artificial sweeteners.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Momto2GSDs said:


> You are not the only one having an issue with Nutro!
> 
> CarrieJo (Quote 1/20/17 – 11:08pm) Long story short I think I got a bad batch of kibble. So I am switching food cold turkey yea I know you shouldn't but when you have 5 dogs throwing up since the new bag was opened I cannot in good faith buy another bag of the same thing so I figure their tummies might not like the switch so adding pumpkin in hopes of keeping them from having problems. *searched on the internet and apparently I am not the only one who recently had trouble with this brand. *So much for feeling safe with a brand.
> 
> ...


Is Nutro different than Nutri-Source?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

maxtmill said:


> Is Nutro different than Nutri-Source?


Nutro Products belong to Mars Incorporated, who makes candy.


Nutri-Source, along with Pure Vita, Natural Planet Organics, and Natural Planet kibbles are KLN brand foods. 

The "Natural Planet ORGANICS", to me, is very misleading to the average pet owner because there are very few organic ingredients in it:
Duck & Whitefish: 
Duck, whitefish, salmon meal, chickpeas, organic peas, chickpea flour, organic pea flour, tapioca starch, sunflower oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), pea starch, duck meal, natural fish flavor, dried kelp meal, salmon oil, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, dried brewers yeast, organic flax seeds, salt, apples, blueberries, minerals (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, cobalt proteinate, selenium yeast), choline chloride, vitamins (vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), lactic acid, carrots, celery, beet, parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), yucca schidigera extract, calcium iodate, rosemary extract, yeast culture (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Aspergillus niger fermentation extract, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation extract.


Moms


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Your vet will probably prescribe the brand that supports the clinic. If you stick with kibble, you could check out www.
dogfoodadvisor.com


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

lalabug said:


> Oh wow... I will def have to question the vet about switching when we go back. I feel like he may have already mentioned Purina Pro Plan or one of the Science Diets... Moms, what's your input on those as far as kibble goes? @Momto2GSDs


I don't ask the vet, I tell them what my plans are. Most vets aren't nutrition experts.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

@lalabug a good source for commercial dog food info is 

Dog Food Reviews and Ratings by Brand

The list of foods reviewed is extensive. It will truly give you a better view of the quality dog foods and those that are not. Best advise I can give is pick one that has the best rating in your price range that is grain free or minimal grains and is easy for you to acquire. Pay more in the beginning and buy small bags so you don't get stuck with a huge bag of food that isn't tolerated or not liked. Check with your pet store about what the return policy is. One of my local stores actually will take back and give a full refund on open food if less than half the bag is used. 

Remember to transition slowly.


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## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> I don't ask the vet, I tell them what my plans are. Most vets aren't nutrition experts.


totally agree and I think it's hilarious when a vet's office offers "nutritional counseling" BAHAHA


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## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

@wolfy dog & @Springbrz
thank you for the site recs - will check those out!


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## lalabug (Oct 20, 2016)

Momto2GSDs said:


> These pictures speak for themselves!
> 
> View attachment 403969
> 
> ...



OH. MY. GOD.


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## DDRGSD56 (Aug 16, 2011)

So Long Yeast, Hello Kefir! - Dogs Naturally Magazine

Answers Raw Pet Food Company: ADDITIONAL - Raw Goat's Milk

https://www.freshtrackspet.com/products/answers-raw-cows-milk-kefir

Supplemental Goat Milk for Pets: Raw Goat Milk

ive fed all the above and prefer them to pills or tablets


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