# Fearful dominant dog, can this be corrected?



## jennifernikki (Jul 8, 2010)

Hello, My name is Jennifer & we have an 11 month old GSD named Finley. We rescued him in December. From the beginning, we had some issues with him growling at my 3 young kids. He actually snapped at my 2 & 4 yr old at two separate times. They invaded his space. Doesnt make it right though.

He seems to become more tolerant of them, but every once in awhile, he'll growl at my 4 yr old if she comes to close to him.
I had him in obedience training at our local Kennel Club & one day, while discussing his behavior w/ the trainer, she got to close to Finley & he snapped at her. She recommended behavioral training. I went to a session and I told him how the dog leans up against me. So he told me to lightly shove the dog in the side w/ my knee, and make him sit. Well, about the 2nd time the trainer did this, he snapped. He said this is the fastest he's ever seen a dog snap. He suggested taking him for a day & working w/ him, but he never called me back & I've left a few messages. 
He grabbed a kids toy the other day & ran into his crate. I went to grab it & he grumbled at me. 
Hes scared of so many things, the water hose, a beach ball, if I go to pet him, he ducks away. He growls at the neighbor kids.
Another weird thing about him is it almost seems to me like he has no emotion most of the time. When we come home, he doesnt meet us at the door. He just stands there & it takes awhile to pep him up. WHen were in the yard playing w/ the kids, he really doesnt want to be there, he'll go into the garage or back in the house. He won't go out in the yard by himself, not even for a second.
Sorry this post is all over the place. 

He's really starting to make me nervous. Do you think with the proper trainer, this is something that can be fixed? His fearfulness seems to be getting worse. We don't hit him. I don't understand why he's like this. My kids are pretty energetic kids, maybe thats making him nervous? What are your thoughts? My husband thinks I'm crazy, so it's frustrating that I don't have his support on this. 
If theres any questions you have , please ask. Thank so much!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fearful and Dominant are oxymorons. You have a fearful and reactive dog.

First, if I had toddlers and a dog like this, I would be very nervous also.

Second, have you had a medical work up on him?

Third, where did you rescue him from? Was it a shelter adoption or from a rescue?


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## jennifernikki (Jul 8, 2010)

Fearful/dominant is what the behavioral trainer labeled him.

No, I havent had any medical check ups. What would I have them look for?


We rescued him from a rescue organization. The only background they have on him is he was an owner surrender because he had Parvo.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

He sounds unstable. I would be very careful with him around such little kids.
Also, the more nervous you feel about him, the more he will sense it and reflect that right back at you. 
I am willing to bet the owner didn't surrender him because of Parvo.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Click this link and learn about how to work with a dog like this - this is just one small step you can do. Implement it now while deciding what to do with him.
Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

Tons of information here about dogs and kids interacting. Family Paws Dog and Baby Support

Quite honestly I do not believe this dog belongs in your home, training or not. 
Will the rescue take him back? Will you have input on his next home? For instance, one without kids?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Quite honestly I do not believe this dog belongs in your home, training or not.
> Will the rescue take him back? Will you have input on his next home? For instance, one without kids?


Exactly what I was thinking. I would hate to see that dog take a chunk off the 2-year-old's face before the husband would offer support.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Honestly, this is not the type of dog I would really trust around my kids. He is fearful and quick to snap. Kids move differently than we do. they're loud and crazy and just all over the place and when it comes to animals, often times have trouble with boundaries. 

Any idea how long the rescue had him? Was he in a foster home or shelter situation? Did they tell you ANYTHING about his personality? I cant honestly believe a rescue would allow a fearful reactive dog to go to a home with young children. Thats asking for trouble. He has some serious issues from the sounds of things and needs an experienced handler with time to work with him on those issues. A fear reactive dog is not a dog I would be comfortable with around young kids. Its a bite waiting to happen. 

What happens if one of the kids slips while playing or running? Dog reacts negatively. What happens if a toy that gets tossed accidentally hits the dog? negative association. With fear reactive dogs, it really is that quick. Just because he seems more tolerant of them now, doesnt make it so. If the trainer hasnt gotten back to you after a few messages, dont count on that trainer. Even a good trainer who is busy with other clients would call back after a message is left. Find a different trainer. But personal opinion, you have an unstable minded dog in a home with young children. He needs to be returned to the rescue and have it made VERY clear he has issues or he should be put to sleep. Hard but true. An unstable dog is dangerous. 

NEVER leave your children unattended around Finley.


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## jennifernikki (Jul 8, 2010)

msvette, thank you for the links. I'll def read them. 
I'm not sure if the rescue will take him back. I'm thinking about contacting them though. I feel terrible. I know his foster mom wanted to keep him, but she had a few other dogs, so she adopted him out. Now I feel like I failed her & Finley. I'm wondering if I should contact an all German Shepherd rescue though. Maybe they would know how to handle the situation better. I don't know. I feel so sad.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You did not fail and should not feel bad. 

With a 2 and 4 year old to take care of, you don't have the time or the energy left over to deal with a problem dog. 

They knew what they had and they gave him to you anyway.
If anyone failed, it was the rescue who failed you.


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## jennifernikki (Jul 8, 2010)

Kzoppa:

The rescue had him for about 2 months. He had parvo, so they took care of that & adopted him to us. 

They told us he was a wonderful dog & would be great around kids, because he was so young, didnt have any aggression towards kids.

I learned my lesson the 1st time when he snapped at my 2 yr old to never leave him unattended w/ the kids. WHen he snapped at my 4 yr old, my husband was in their care.


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## jennifernikki (Jul 8, 2010)

I feel if I surrender him, it will add to his problems. This is such a terrible decision to make.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Now I feel like I failed her & Finley.


No. Although it's understandable in some ways, the _rescue_ failed the dog and you.
We don't place large dogs with homes with kids, for this very reason. People get angry and I take a lot of "hits" in the form of insults...even one woman threatened to badmouth me all over facebook - for what? Declining an adoption to a home with kids when the dog had never been around kids! 
Either way- it is my sincere belief that unless a foster home has toddlers or kids and knows the dog is bombproof they need to put an "over 8yrs" or "over 10-12" or whatever, but do not place a dog that's less than bombproof in a home with small kids.




jennifernikki said:


> I feel if I surrender him, it will add to his problems. This is such a terrible decision to make.


You're going to feel even worse when your child's in surgery to repair the damage an adult GSD can make on the child.
I don't often say "give a dog back" (you can ask - and we have a rescue!) but in this case, it is my sincere belief he's an accident waiting to happen.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

His problems are not your problem, and he will be no worse if you surrender him. He might be better off and happier in a house where there are no kids.

As things are right now, he is not comfortable in your home and with your family, from what you describe. You do not trust him and the kids fear him.


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## jennifernikki (Jul 8, 2010)

Thank you for all of your input. Prior to Finley, we had a beautiful shepherd (on my avatar) who passed away at 7 from bloat. My husband wanted another shepherd. We went through so many shepherd rescues, but like you said, no one would adopt to us. Now I see why. 
Your words have been helpful to me. I don't feel so alone. Thank you.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> No. Although it's understandable in some ways, the _rescue_ failed the dog and you.
> We don't place large dogs with homes with kids, for this very reason. People get angry and I take a lot of "hits" in the form of insults...even one woman threatened to badmouth me all over facebook - for what? Declining an adoption to a home with kids when the dog had never been around kids!
> Either way- it is my sincere belief that unless a foster home has toddlers or kids and knows the dog is bombproof they need to put an "over 8yrs" or "over 10-12" or whatever, but do not place a dog that's less than bombproof in a home with small kids.
> 
> ...


 

agree. Your kids come first and you were failed by the rescue in being allowed to adopt him. Simply because he's young is not a good enough reason to adopt him out to a home with young children. I have a 3 year old and a 4 year old. I'm an obedience trainer. I work with fear reactive dogs pretty regularly. I honestly would never recommend a fear reactive dog be placed in a home with young children. The rescue failed on this one. not you.


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## jennifernikki (Jul 8, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> His problems are not your problem, and he will be no worse if you surrender him. He might be better off and happier in a house where there are no kids.
> 
> Thats what I;m thinking too, maybe better off w/o kids.
> 
> ...


Your 100% correct, I don't trust him one bit. Unfortunately, the kids have no fear of him & that scares me.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You don't have to feel alone. 
And I am so sorry your dog got bloat. How terrible.

When I began my search, and you can see in my first posts, I was looking at rescues.

I was repeatedly advised to get a puppy, because of the ages of the children who are in and often visit my home. One rescue refused to even talk to me. 

After a lot of research and talking to people here, mostly by PM, I decided it was best to start with a blank slate and get a pup. Even with a puppy, it was tough, in the landshark phase. I can't imagine having such a huge dog with impressive teeth snapping at my 2 and 4 year old. 

This isn't the right fit for your family and you have every right to find a dog who is.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't think adopting from a rescue is a bad thing. But I'd make 100% sure that dog had been living around toddlers who are noisy, rambunctious and can easily overwhelm a dog who is not stable to begin with.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

jennifernikki said:


> Thank you for all of your input. Prior to Finley, we had a beautiful shepherd (on my avatar) who passed away at 7 from bloat. My husband wanted another shepherd. We went through so many shepherd rescues, but like you said, no one would adopt to us. Now I see why.
> Your words have been helpful to me. I don't feel so alone. Thank you.


 
sorry to hear about your last shepherd. I adopted a 4 year old GSD with no previous training back in 2006. We got ridiculously lucky with her. Her only issue, besides being a bull in a china shop, was she was dominant with other dogs. She turned out to be fabulous with kids. She was with us before I found out i was pregnant with my daughter in 2007. Our male who is now 7 hadnt been socialized with children at all. He was fearful at first. He would growl but get up and move away. he's angellic with kids now. Even gets excited and all wiggle butt when he see's kids outside. He immediately flops over for belly rubs. After my kids were born, I decided I didnt feel comfortable adopting another dog but would rather work with a puppy instead. Enter Shasta. 

Also, no rescues will adopt to us not because we have young children but because we're a military family and the majority of military families have a history of dumping animals when they move. Personally, I would recommend a puppy from a good breeder or finding a reliable rescue who will work with you to find the perfect fit for your family. There really are a great many family proofed dogs who end up in rescue and want nothing more than to have a kid of their own again so there are options. You just have to be willing to dig for them.


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## jennifernikki (Jul 8, 2010)

We had thought getting a pup wouldve been the best option, but then we saw Finley at almost 5 months & thought that would be pup enough. Now I'm thinking blank slate wouldve been a better outcome.

I'm wondering if it was something I did wrong. I'm his handler, feed him, took him to training, worked w/ him at home, walked him.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

jennifernikki said:


> We had thought getting a pup wouldve been the best option, but then we saw Finley at almost 5 months & thought that would be pup enough. Now I'm thinking blank slate wouldve been a better outcome.
> 
> I'm wondering if it was something I did wrong. I'm his handler, feed him, took him to training, worked w/ him at home, walked him.


 
its very likely he didnt get the proper socialization from early on so its nothing you did but its even more likely its just bad genetics. Some dogs are just not stable from the beginning or something happened when they were younger to trigger problems. Some dogs just dont have the right wiring in their heads to handle things. It happens.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

jennifernikki said:


> I'm wondering if it was something I did wrong. I'm his handler, feed him, took him to training, worked w/ him at home, walked him.


OK, Jennifer, no more blaming yourself, feeling bad or guilt. The dog growled and snapped from the get-go.
It is his temperament, combined with who knows what experiences he had before 5 months. By 5 months, a GSD gets programmed with a lot. It can be good or bad.

This isn't your fault, but it will be if he injures or disfigures your kids. 
Do you think he is a good dog for your family?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> OK, Jennifer, no more blaming yourself, feeling bad or guilt. The dog growled and snapped from the get-go.
> It is his temperament, combined with who knows what experiences he had before 5 months. By 5 months, a GSD gets programmed with a lot. It can be good or bad.
> 
> This isn't your fault, but it will be if he injures or disfigures your kids.
> Do you think he is a good dog for your family?


 
agree. no more guilt.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

With good training your pup will improve, he will not be 100%. He will always have to be managed. It won't happen quickly, may take many months, maybe stretching to over a year. As the training proceeds, he may get worse before he begins improving. Especially at the beginning, training will be done in very short increments of time, several times a day, depending on his stress level. On top of that will be the weekly sessions with the behaviorist. With 3 kids, do you have the time available to do this?

As far as you failing your pup, you didn't. Behavior like this doesn't develop over night. Either the rescue didn't recognize what they were seeing from him, or didn't follow through when they saw the behavior.

While you are considering your options, use baby gates, muzzles, whatever you need to do to protect your kids from a bite.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Twyla said:


> With good training your pup will improve, he will not be 100%. He will always have to be managed. It won't happen quickly, may take many months, maybe stretching to over a year. As the training proceeds, he may get worse before he begins improving. Especially at the beginning, training will be done in very short increments of time, several times a day, depending on his stress level. On top of that will be the weekly sessions with the behaviorist. With 3 kids, do you have the time available to do this?
> 
> As far as you failing your pup, you didn't. Behavior like this doesn't develop over night. Either the rescue didn't recognize what they were seeing from him, or didn't follow through when they saw the behavior.
> 
> *While you are considering your options, use baby gates, muzzles, whatever you need to do to protect your kids from a bite*.


 

highlighted portion exactly


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Click this link and learn about how to work with a dog like this - this is just one small step you can do. Implement it now while deciding what to do with him.
> Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
> 
> Tons of information here about dogs and kids interacting. Family Paws Dog and Baby Support
> ...


 
*Absolutely agree! just waiting for a tragedy to happen!*

*If by any chance you decide to keep him, I also suggest that you find a new trainer. "Dominant" and "fearful" do not co-exist in a dog!*

*I would not trust my kids (or anyone elses!) around a dog with behavior as has been described!*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> its very likely he didnt get the proper socialization from early on so its nothing you did but its even more likely its just bad genetics. Some dogs are just not stable from the beginning or something happened when they were younger to trigger problems. Some dogs just dont have the right wiring in their heads to handle things. It happens.


 
Sounds like "bad nerves" to me - genetic problem, not your(OP) failing!


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I don't think you failed that dog either, OP. 

Something doesn't sound right with him. I know anytime my kids are playing...all 3 of my nosey dogs want to be right there in the mix of things. I would be worried about any dog that didn't want to be right there with the family. Sounds odd that he takes off to hide in the garage when the whole family is playing.........odd that he doesn't greet the family at the door. I would think something was seriously wrong with mine if they were not standing at the door when we came home.

First thing I would do.....muzzle him up and run him up to the vet's office for a COMPLETE exam and blood work. (You said he had parvo before.....I would be concerned that the rescue that had him before didn't do any followups...anyway, I don't think I would trust anything they said they had done or didn't do at this point) 

I don't know if that would make a difference to you if you did find out something medically was wrong with him that* may *have effected the way he has acted????????????? (would anybody elses answer to re-home be any different if they did find out something was medically wrong with him?)


Your situation is different though. You do have very young children.

Good luck and I do hope you keep us updated.


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## jennifernikki (Jul 8, 2010)

thank you everyone for your very knowledgeable advice. I'll be doing some serious thinking over the next few days. Sorry about the guilt thing. I always tend to blame myself for everything. It's a terrible fault that I have 

I will defiantly keep you posted.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jennifernikki said:


> I'm not sure if the rescue will take him back. I'm thinking about contacting them though. I feel terrible. I know his foster mom wanted to keep him, but she had a few other dogs, so she adopted him out. Now I feel like I failed her & Finley. I'm wondering if I should contact an all German Shepherd rescue though. Maybe they would know how to handle the situation better. I don't know. I feel so sad.


If you got him from a rescue, then you should have a contract stating you can only surrender him to the rescue. You need to start there. They can then make the decision to either take him back or work to get him into a different rescue.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I second what everyone said - must be hard, I know, but from everything you write about him, something does sound 'off'. 

I think with a dog like this, you can work and work and work with them, and get some improvement, but at core, they will always be reactive and unpredictable, and you'll never be able to trust them around little kids. At five months old, if he had just recovered from Parvo, he may still have been too weak from the illness and to disoriented from being surrendered by the original owners to show his real personality. No one may have known that he would be this way. It sounds to me too, that he is getting worse with his snapping, instead of getting better. 

This is a dog that will require careful management all his life, and not allowed near little kids - it probably feels all wrong, but the right thing to do is to find him another home, or get him back in rescue, hoping that they can make a better match in a home with no children.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think its the dogs nerves and lets face it if the nerves are shot(in a dog or person) they tend to snap. Since he had parvo he probably was not socialized a lot, because he was sick. He has no clue how to deal with the little ones I got mine when she was 12 weeks, I have kids around sometimes. They are 11, 9, 6, and 4..sometimes a 1 year old and the puppy loves them. The 4 yr old can spend hours "training" the GSD pup. Just recently my parents Rott has started showing signs of not liking the two youngest kids. I have firmly told my family to keep those kids away from the dog, because it can turn into a problem. This dog has been around the kids for 8 yrs, but she is older and doesn't want kids running around or bumping into her. I don't necessarily buy that a family with kids under 5 should not have a big dog, I do believe a smaller dog that feels threatened around small kids will bite a lot quicker. The problem with the big dogs is that they can knock the kids down and hurt them, most people freak and decide the dog is dangerous....kids fall all the time


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

FWIW, we don't do "follow ups" @ the vet on parvo puppies. If they survived it and are alive they really don't have lasting effects.
That said, 99% of the puppies who survive parvo here (after being surrendered to us as owner could not afford to treat it) get altered 3-4 weeks after they break with parvo, so the vet just sees them then.

Other than the fact nobody seems to have socialized him - and I agree parvo pups need to have isolation for the three weeks after the parvo hit - I doubt the parvo had anything to do with what's going on.

After the 3 weeks of iso, the dog should have been exposed to anything and everything that could possibly come his way. 
And if a rescue intends to adopt to homes with small kids, that should have been evaluated prior to sending him anywhere. 

I know it makes people angry that we refuse to adopt to homes w/small kids but I'd feel horrible if anything happened to someone's child! My "baby" is 17 so we are never sure how any of them respond to small kids.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> FWIW, we don't do "follow ups" @ the vet on parvo puppies. If they survived it and are alive they really don't have lasting effects.
> That said, 99% of the puppies who survive parvo here (after being surrendered to us as owner could not afford to treat it) get altered 3-4 weeks after they break with parvo, so the vet just sees them then.
> 
> Other than the fact nobody seems to have socialized him - and I agree parvo pups need to have isolation for the three weeks after the parvo hit - I doubt the parvo had anything to do with what's going on.
> ...


Although Parvo itself didn't have anything to do with his behavior directly, indirectly it did. They got him at 5 months(after he had recouped), so he had parvo at a very important socialization period. Imagine how many weeks the break down is that this dog was getting sick, was sick, then isolated so that no one else got sick...yes a very important time for a puppy.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

We all know socialization is very important, but even if this puppy was isolated, I don't think socialization really has much to do with this.

Another thing we are all aware of, is how terribly GSDs want to be with their people. Having owned one before, I'm sure you know that. Six months is pleanty of time for bonding, and if the dog is off hiding somewhere when the family is out interacting with eachother, that's a major red flag. Based on what you have told us, The dog is wired wrong. Not coming to greet you when you come home is very odd.

Please stop feeling guilty for the situation. If anything, you should feel guilty for continuing to subject your very young, defensless children to an animal that has shown aggresion towards them. I'm sorry for being blunt, but please don't put an animal you have had for six months before the babies you carried for 9 months...

I am so sorry you are going through this. As pet owners we always want to do the right thing for our pets. Once we take them in they become our 'responsibilty'. But your husband is right, your kids are your #1 responsibility, and sometimes our responsibilities cannot co-exist. The rescue failed you miserably and now you are stuck in this mess. Try, for one day, to put your feelings aside and sort through this as rationally as possible. Keep the dog away from the kids, as others have suggested using a muzzle and gates. Do not leave room for error while you are figuring this all out.

Best wishes to you...again I'm sorry for your situation.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

stop feeling guilty- you must protect your children first- by keeping this dog in the house you are setting him up to fail and harm your children.. return him to the rescue NOW. dont think about it just do it... there is no reason why your children should be in harms way with a dog that has already gone after them.... you cant fix genetics, and this dog does NOT belong in a home with children period...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Imagine how many weeks the break down is that this dog was getting sick, was sick, then isolated so that no one else got sick...yes a very important time for a puppy.


No, it is a 3 week time frame. 
3-4 days ill, another 3-4 days back to eating, etc., and another 2 weeks to not contagious any longer, being able to be altered and then adopted out. 

I do not buy that they could not socialize him for a longer period than that. And he'd have had a time frame at 1-4 mos. that he'd have been being socialized or whatever. Furthermore, 0-4mos. is considered the "critical time frame" for socialization. 
Unless he saw nothing in the months before he got sick, then parvo isn't going to take that much time away from his socialization, and even when we have parvo puppies, we just don't let them interact with other puppies. Dogs over 1yr. are safe to interact with. 

The hardest thing we've had lately is when we get one in, we have a puppy in Ruger, still, so have to be careful with him.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

I'm dealing with a fear aggressive GSD right now, but what you're describing sounds different in some big ways. My FA dog has learned its okay to trust _*me, *_and when she's not around new people or situations, besides being hyperactive and obnoxiously needy, she acts pretty normal (though I did take advice here when I got her and put her in 2 week complete shutdown, then a month on-leash even in the house aftewards, which was helpful). The detachment from you, a primary caretaker, is concerning because it makes me think if your dog does do something nutty you may not be to control it. I am leery of the fact this dog "grumbles" at YOU when you take something from it. I agree with someone else's comments that a GSD, even a reactive one (at least the one I have), wants to greet and cling to at least one person that they've bonded to and please them. Does this dog disengage only when the whole family is out in the yard, or also when it's just you? From what you've written, I don't perceive any bonding to anyone.

When my grandkids come over, Rey goes in the basement kennel or the outdoor kennel, while my older stable GSD is left to run and play with the kids. Easier for me because I don't have kids here all the time, but I would not leave your dog alone with children, period.

Oh, and I have to comment that your "behavior trainer" hasn't dealt with many fear aggressive or defensive dogs if he thinks a stranger physically pushing down one won't get a quick reaction. I found that out the hard way myself, and the trainer I was using didn't even physically contact her, simply worked too fast walking with turns and commands (earned him a nip). I know my next trainer has to be a veterinary behaviorist. 

I know it's difficult, and you feel like you're letting the dog down, but it is what it is, and in no way is your fault.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

it does sound like the dog was not socialized early on, and it bothers me that he goes into the garage when the family is out and does not interact with you. most gsd's want to be close to their people. i was thinking medical issue, or he doesn't feel good, that would be a reason for that. alot of health issues can stem from parvo so who knows.

if it isn't a medical problem, then i tend to agree a home with kids is unpredictable with a dog like this. this dog needs first the right trainer/behaviorist and it takes a while to find a good one. then he needs tons of work. taking him to different locations working Obedience and social stuff. you need a good trainer to guide you through this, and it takes ALOT of effort on your part, dogs like these are tons of work and dedication. he could come around with the right help and time, although as said dogs like these can always have a degree of unpredictable behaviors and need to be managed closely. which puts a crimp in your lifestyle that they need to be watched all the time. it will be hard to win his trust and you may not totally get it. but by working with him one on one you should gain in that area.
i have a dog similar fearful, unsure and a bit nervy. the first year he was in classes, i took him to every parkinglot,playground, everywhere, social. the classes were ok for training and dog socialization, but not private enough to work on his people issues. i finally found a great trainer, who set us up with senarios and guided me through handling him. he used to back up and growl at new people, now through my handling and continued training he's 99% which is more than i ever thought possible. so, a hard decsion for you, but best of luck...........


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I am unaware of what health issues can "stem from parvo". In fact, dogs recover quite nicely and seem to have no lasting effects.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

any serious health issue as a pup could cause any number of lasting issues.........lots of info available online.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

debbiebrown said:


> any serious health issue as a pup could cause any number of lasting issues.........lots of info available online.


Well, that's just it. I've researched a ton since we often get parvo puppies in as owner surrenders. And have found there to be no lasting health effects in a recovered parvo puppy.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

they all are individuals just like people. most can recover, but there is a percentile that have issues. hopefully in this case it isn't from the Parvo......


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

i am a new guy here, i understand your guilt and questioning what you should do. hopefully i can help you a little. i work in a small town er. a male 6foot 4 inches, 270 lbs and not fat came in one night by ambulance. he was attacked by his dog. his story was his dog was going to go after his newborn baby and he was trying to stop it. his right pectoral muscle was nearly severed from his chest. he was missing parts of ears lips nose, cheek. severed tendons in both wrists and hands. his legs looked like he was in one of those shark/pirhanna movies. his wife locked herself and the baby in a room and called 911. the pt. finally was able to lock the dog downstairs. he also cried like a baby when he found out all the police and animal control could do was shoot this mans beloved beagle. thats right, a beagle did this to this man. now, imagine what a gsd could do to you or your children. hopefully a good rescue group can help this dog with its issues and place in a proper home. either way, your job is to protect your children, and there are plenty of gsd s out there that need a good home that will be a joy for you and your family. your best case scenario with this dog, is to keep isolated from from your children and not let your children know the joys of a loving and interacting with a great dog. you can figure out the worst case on your own. in regards to your original question, can this be fixed, not without pro help and not by a mother with young children to care for. sorry to be blunt, and yes, this is a true story and i hope hope it scares you into the right decision. like i said i am a new guy here and i am sure there are many here that know more than i, but as much as i love gsd, you have the wrong one.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

first of all, it sounds like you did everything you should of with this puppy, you trained him, you worked with him, you managed him around your children, and you have given him more than one chance to the point that with things getting worse, you are rightly concerned about whether or not to try and work with him, or to surrender him to the rescue. 

I think your question is hard, and it is wise to consider all options. Your children are small, and cannot protect themselves, and really cannot be expected to be perfect around this dog all the time, and even if they could be, your children will have friends, and they will NOT be perfect around your dog. 

I think that the dog does have issues. The fearfulness is a problem, but fearful and even fear-reactive dogs usually can come to a place where they can be ok with family members and only have issues with things out of the ordinary, strangers or strange dogs, or their triggers are such that with effective management, they can still be nice pets. Your dog is independent, probably dominant as well -- your trainer/behaviorist actually saw the dog, and that taking a child's toy and then growling at you when you went to retrieve it, and the fact that he does not care to be around the family, he is not your ordinary fear-reactive dog, and I would listen to the behaviorist on this (though I admit dominance is one of the first things most of them say and they are off most of the time). 

But I do think a fearful dog can be dominant. And that is a point where you really need to look at liability. A fearful dog will bite, yes, if you startle it, or corner it, or it has no place to run to (like when it is leashed). An ordinary fearful dog, will generally avoid conflicts, avoid people they do not know. A fearful dog will bark from within their kennel and act all mean, but if you ignore the dog and open the kennel, and the dog can come out, they will and they will run to the other side of the fence area away from people, even strangers. And if you continue to ignore and talk together, the fearful dog might come closer (because they really are not independent, they are just scared). If they come up to you and get a quiet affirmation, Good Girl and more ignoring, they will relax, and that was a positive socialization experience.

A dominant or independent fearful dog is going to come out of their kennel and go to the source of their fear (the outsider) and nip or bite and try to drive them away. They have no trust in you or in your ability to protect them, so they are like Dog-against-the-world. They have to protect themselves and that means getting this strange person out of their territory. 

Fearful dogs can be territorial, they can be independent, they can be dominant with other dogs, they can be taking the job of leader of the pack because they feel they are the best one for it. I am not saying you are doing anything wrong, just I heard twice in this thread already that dominant and fearful do not co-exist. I think it can. And if it does, then I think your liability is even greater.

Your puppy is also reaching an adolescent stage. If the rescue did not neuter your pup, it may be time to do that now. Lots of dogs push the boundaries at this point. 

The good news is your dog has not bitten yet. I think that if your dog wanted to bite your kid, it would have bitten your kid. You have a huge problem, and it is certainly possible that the dog can go that extra step, but whether you keep your dog or not, I think that it is possible with leadership and management and training, that this dog can become more confident and accept human leadership. But I would definitely work with a good trainer/behaviorist if you are not willing to give up the dog. And you have to consider what the rules are going to be when your kids start bringing friends home. 

Good luck.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One last point and that is your kids are your top priority and they should be. Don't let anyone give you a hard time about your decision concerning this dog, whether you continue to work with him, or if you give him back to the rescue.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

debbiebrown said:


> they all are individuals just like people. most can recover, but there is a percentile that have issues. hopefully in this case it isn't from the Parvo......


I really want to see documented proof that there's issues. You stated it was so, but have nothing to back it up, and I've got plenty of evidence that says there's no lasting harmful effects.
If you believe there is, that's one thing, but until you can show me proof, I will state there is no lasting effects from parvo.

Please point me to a website with information that parvo causes lasting harm to a puppy or dog? Especially since you posted in a thread about behavior and aggression that parvo could have caused the issue.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> I am unaware of what health issues can "stem from parvo". In fact, dogs recover quite nicely and seem to have no lasting effects.


Thankfully I can say that is true in my case. I have a nearly five year old non GSD that had parvo and hasn't been sick a day in her life since. Hope that continues!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Chelle, that's just it. None of the dogs we've helped recover from parvo have had any lasting effects.
I just think if someone makes a claim like that they need to _show_ where there's documentation there is lasting effects, especially on temperament - or else there's going to be a lot of worried people out there, and a lot fewer people adopting recovered parvo puppies.
Not even your vet would tell you there's lasting effects - either temperament or healthwise.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> Chelle, that's just it. None of the dogs we've helped recover from parvo have had any lasting effects.
> I just think if someone makes a claim like that they need to _show_ where there's documentation there is lasting effects, especially on temperament - or else there's going to be a lot of worried people out there, and a lot fewer people adopting recovered parvo puppies.
> Not even your vet would tell you there's lasting effects - either temperament or healthwise.


But then, your vet will not tell you that there may be lasting effects when you spay or neuter your puppy at 16 weeks old. 

And the will definitely not agree that giving vaccinations to a siezure dog might cause them to have seizures.

Or that vaccinations might have reactions, or latent reactions. 

Pretty sad. 

I think it makes sense that a serious illness that happens when puppy is developing might have some lasting effect or latent effects on the dog in either how they developed or their capacity for certain things, and the brain is an organ that can be seriously affected by lack of oxygen or nutrients. 

I think that while I understand not wanting people to think that their dog will have lasting effects from having had parvo early on, I think it is a bold statement to say that is does not cause lasting effects.

I mean, if that is the case, why do we try and feed them the best food we can? We want them to develop properly, and not getting nutrition and critical points can cause problems.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is a bold statement, one borne of truth and not "what ifs" or suspicion...as for the rest, not to get too far off track but some if not all the things you mention are coincidental, not proven.
And parvo pups and dogs grow up perfectly healthy. If you believe parvo can cause behavioral issues, then maybe we need to hang out at the mental health facility and ask the patients there if they ever had flu in their lives!? 
Parvo is akin to flu in humans. A 3 day stint with the flu makes us feel weak for a few more days, and in dogs, they recover just like we do from a bout with it.

PS. But if you can find me actual examples and statements from vets, I'll read through it! :thumbup:


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## wbmills (Jun 12, 2012)

PupperLove said:


> We all know socialization is very important, but even if this puppy was isolated, I don't think socialization really has much to do with this.
> 
> Another thing we are all aware of, is how terribly GSDs want to be with their people. Having owned one before, I'm sure you know that. Six months is pleanty of time for bonding, and if the dog is off hiding somewhere when the family is out interacting with eachother, that's a major red flag. Based on what you have told us, *The dog is wired wrong*. Not coming to greet you when you come home is very odd.
> 
> on.


I think you are jumping to a conclusion with no basis for it. I have had a lot of experience with fearful aggressive dogs and there are many reasons that they can react that way. The suggestion of a medical exam was already made. that’s the very first step. Pain can cause this exact behaviour. The dog will separate himself from the family because he does not want to be aggressive towards them. 

If the medical exam comes up clean then this is truly just fear which is easily possible for such a young dog seeing that we don't know what has happened to him. He needs two things, first a place to feel safe. Separate him from the kids. That's more than he can handle right now. Give him a quiet place to lay in an open door kennel where he can see you but not be in a main traffic area. 

Secondly, he needs a leader to feel safe and protected. It will actually instill him with a sense of calm if you follow all the behaviour expected of a pack leader. Feed him yourself, walk him (correctly) yourself, etc. Once you have bonded with him he can slowly be introduced to the rest of the pack. This could take a month or more depending on what traumas he was exposed to. 

If you don;t have time or patience for him then return him sooner rather than later. Then you will just be another foster home to him. No harm done.


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