# Culling



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I know this might be a sensitive subject to some, I'm curious if culling puppies is widely practiced among reputable breeders. I know of several "bully type" breeders that culled heavily. 

If you are a breeder, when would you cull?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

for clarification... it's my understanding that modern day culling is as simple as spaying or neutering affected animals or lines with undesirable traits.

is this what you mean?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In this breed(GSD), I think the term is 'washing out' and not actually killing a puppy from a breeding program. And generally it is done before 2 yrs old so the dog can go on to live a happy live with a good match. A breeder I train with has 'washed' a few from their program because they have really high standards and goals. So not many make the cut. 
Never do they euth as the word cull may represent, but just remove said dog from their breeding program into a suitable home.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are reputable breeders out there even many of whom with names most of you would recognize that cull in the sense of putting down puppies with deformities like cleft pallets or other major health issues. It is done. Probably done more in Europe but it is still practiced in the US by breeders.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Baillif said:


> There are reputable breeders out there even many of whom with names most of you would recognize that cull in the sense of putting down puppies with deformities like cleft pallets or other major health issues. It is done. Probably done more in Europe but it is still practiced in the US by breeders.


Yes, defects are reasons for euthanization. 
When it comes to genetics, hopefully they don't hide it and will breed away from any issue that has appeared. Mild case of MegaE and a few other conditions can be dealt with easily, the puppy doesn't need to be euth'd but placed carefully 
Some things don't show up til the puppy weans. Undescended testical should never be a reason for 'cull/kill'


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I meant it as Baillif explained. Euthanizing a puppy due to health or temperament. I find it difficult to believe that even the best breeders don't produce some dogs that are extreme shy, fearful, or aggressive. We hear about this type of dog every day it seems.

Baillif, since you seem to know some that cull, do you know if any cull due to bad nerves or other temperament issues?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yup. It happens.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Baillif said:


> Yup. It happens.


Thanks. I'd be royally pissed if a breeder placed a dog with me that should have been culled for weak nerves or other temperament defects.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Yup. It happens.


Just what temperamental traits qualify for a cull in general?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just what temperamental traits qualify for a cull in general?


This^^ and how old are the pups when they determine this?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just what temperamental traits qualify for a cull in general?


dogs that may be overly suspicious, and over several months it is consistent, not just a 'fear period, and can't recover or work in a situation that is stimulating. Too low threshold, or maybe too high. THIS IS for breeding requirements, not 'pet' potential.
A dog that won't engage with handler/or helper, a bit soft when it comes to bitework...hunt drive isn't as strong as it may have been when evaluated as a youngster. Heat cycles may not be regular. Teeth alignment may not be perfect. Many different reasons. 
But no way would a good breeder euth a dog, but place the dog where it can live a great life(and that may even be in a sport that includes bitework, etc...just not perfect enough for the breeders criteria.) I also know good breeders will let a dog mature some before deciding to wash, what you see at 8 months may not always be the same at 16 months, but if it is, then time to decide...and most often a 16 month old will have some good foundation work placed and can go on to another career path and succeed or excel. Just that the dog would not be a good candidate for breeding purposes.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

eddie1976E said:


> Thanks. I'd be royally pissed if a breeder placed a dog with me that should have been culled for weak nerves or other temperament defects.


You'd be surprised! There is a breeder that posts here occasionally, with connections to their partners in Europe that sold a deformed pup to a novice American with out missing a beat. The deformity was a glaringly obvious defect, not something that could have gone unnoticed by an experienced breeder. That is why I always recommend that novice puppy buyers do their research, don't get sucked in by all the hype and "buyer beware." Google and various forum searches can be your friend. Asking for PM's is a good idea and don't discount the ones that warn you to stay away from certain breeders.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Slamdunc said:


> You'd be surprised! There is a breeder that posts here occasionally, with connections to their partners in Europe that sold a deformed pup to a novice American with out missing a beat. The deformity was a glaringly obvious defect, not something that could have gone unnoticed by an experienced breeder. That is why I always recommend that novice puppy buyers do their research, don't get sucked in by all the hype and "buyer beware." Google and various forum searches can be your friend. Asking for PM's is a good idea and don't discount the ones that warn you to stay away from certain breeders.


I guess the lure of 1500-2000 per puppy is too much to pass up. Why cull when there is a sucker born every minute?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There is no "gold standard" for what people would cull for or not. It is going to depend on the breeder. Temperament cullings are more rare than the physical deformity or health related cullings but they do happen.

I'm on the fence about the nervy thing. I have two nervy dogs. They live well with me. Zebu with age and training has mellowed and matured to where I can take him pretty much anywhere with minimal issues. The other one has improved a ton in recent months and gets by just fine. They won't be going to hang out in the stands of any football games or anything like that, but they can live out normal happy lives. The biggest problem is those dogs are so hard for the general public to deal with and to get to the point where they can have a semblance of normalcy in their lives. 

Ultimately the real blame lies at the foot of the state of dog training in the United States. There is lots of bad information on how to socialize and deal with temperament issues. People struggle as a result, and issues get worse and dogs develop behaviors like fear biting or aggression because of it. Any breeding program is going to produce some nerve bags at some point. Nervy is a more "natural" for a dog IMO. Courage and good temperament has to be selected for.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

eddie1976E said:


> Slamdunc said:
> 
> 
> > You'd be surprised! There is a breeder that posts here occasionally, with connections to their partners in Europe that sold a deformed pup to a novice American with out missing a beat. The deformity was a glaringly obvious defect, not something that could have gone unnoticed by an experienced breeder. That is why I always recommend that novice puppy buyers do their research, don't get sucked in by all the hype and "buyer beware." Google and various forum searches can be your friend. Asking for PM's is a good idea and don't discount the ones that warn you to stay away from certain breeders.
> ...


Wow. So you use cull instead of kill and suddenly it's a good thing? Yes it happens, no it's probably not "common", and if you are depending on a breeder to not screw you over with a puppy with a bad temperament, then you should be doing better research. Sorry.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I know some breeders will do this if they have a puppy of unwanted color like a solid white Great Dane. Sad.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think it's disturbing. A pup doesn't asked to be born with a physical deformity and I know I would have no issue taking in such a pup. That is no reason to kill a dog. I would never do business with anyone that thought this was okay. It's pretty sad that a breeder or someone that calls themselves a breeder can do this with a clear conscious.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes having morals should be part of the job.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> dogs that may be overly suspicious, and over several months it is consistent, not just a 'fear period, and can't recover or work in a situation that is stimulating. Too low threshold, or maybe too high. THIS IS for breeding requirements, not 'pet' potential.
> A dog that won't engage with handler/or helper, a bit soft when it comes to bitework...hunt drive isn't as strong as it may have been when evaluated as a youngster. Heat cycles may not be regular. Teeth alignment may not be perfect. Many different reasons.
> But no way would a good breeder euth a dog, but place the dog where it can live a great life(and that may even be in a sport that includes bitework, etc...just not perfect enough for the breeders criteria.) I also know good breeders will let a dog mature some before deciding to wash, what you see at 8 months may not always be the same at 16 months, but if it is, then time to decide...and most often a 16 month old will have some good foundation work placed and can go on to another career path and succeed or excel. Just that the dog would not be a good candidate for breeding purposes.


Thanks, but I was a little more curious about dogs/pups culled in a more serious manner.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I think it's disturbing. A pup doesn't asked to be born with a physical deformity and I know I would have no issue taking in such a pup. That is no reason to kill a dog. I would never do business with anyone that thought this was okay. It's pretty sad that a breeder or someone that calls themselves a breeder can do this with a clear conscious.


You say that, but to what extent? Deformation could cause no quality of life. I'll give an example. A basset hound i know of has 3-4 seizures a day. Strong to the point of grand mal. The dog contorts to a full circle. She's heavily medicated to the point of being a walking zombie. She cannot pant, and is dull eyed. Been this way since birth. Would you put an older dog down if they were at this point? She's 3 btw.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would cull a puppy that had a deformity that would make a normal life next to impossible. I mean you see them on TV or facebook sometimes, some poor dog with only two legs struggling along and it gets a bajillion likes. I think that part of breeding is to take the heartache and put down a critter so that it doesn't suffer. 

I don't think people should cull for easily fixed issues, or simple faults, or even less than stellar temperament. If you can't find a home for an off color pup, or a drop-eared pup, or a gentle but shy pup, then give it the best home you can, and the right home might come up for it.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> Wow. So you use cull instead of kill and suddenly it's a good thing? Yes it happens, no it's probably not "common", and if you are depending on a breeder to not screw you over with a puppy with a bad temperament, then you should be doing better research. Sorry.


How many times do newcomers get told "let the breeder pick the puppy for you, they are most qualified"? So, yeah, I depend on the breeder to not screw me with a puppy that has serious temperament issues or medical issues. 

On the other issue of culling, killing, call it what you want. It keeps questionable dogs from getting into the gene pool or in the hands of people that can't deal with their shortcomings. It is not right to stick a puppy into the home and have that dog be afraid of its own shadow and not be able to deal with everyday life. I suppose if the buyer is completely aware of what they are getting into, but I know if I was presented with the situation, I would not take that kind of a puppy. 

Now if you are culling a puppy just based on looks and the puppy is completely healthy and normal otherwise, then that is something I have an issue with.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Thanks, but I was a little more curious about dogs/pups culled in a more serious manner.


what do you mean? Killed because they are weak, or super aggressive, or placed in the wrong environment? doubtful that breeders would be the ones to decide the dogs fate. They can sell or give a pup away due to issues that can actually be dealt with. 
Though breeders that are producing dogs with problems that really need to be snubbed, may not care where their pups end up. Only so much can be done with poor nerve/temperament. Doubtful the breeder is involved because by the time the pup has had handling fails, or temperament test issue, the breeder is not in the picture to take back what they've produced.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cloudpump said:


> You say that, but to what extent? Deformation could cause no quality of life. I'll give an example. A basset hound i know of has 3-4 seizures a day. Strong to the point of grand mal. The dog contorts to a full circle. She's heavily medicated to the point of being a walking zombie. She cannot pant, and is dull eyed. Been this way since birth. Would you put an older dog down if they were at this point? She's 3 btw.


I would put the dog down. 

Sorry, but it is a personal decision. Breeders have to step back and make hard decisions sometimes.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> I know some breeders will do this if they have a puppy of unwanted color like a solid white Great Dane. Sad.


Is that "still" the state of affairs with White Danes???

It used to be the case with "White Boxers" but things have changed ... now "Breeders" post the "White Boxers Safe" seal of approval! 

But no I've never seen a "White Dane" now that mention it???


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Oh I'm going to be _that_ person today. 

I think it's important to remember that the vast majority of "culls" in the non killing sense end up in _pet_ homes.

Does the deformed and mentally unstable pup deserve to live a long full life when the shelter down the street is killing young, healthy, and mentally stable dogs? Dogs that would by all sense of the words be better pets? 

IMHO to be responsible, breeders need to put the love of the breed before their love of their individual dogs when making tough decisions. What damage does sending a dog out there with such severe mental defects that euthanasia was on the table at some point do to the public perception of their breed? I've seen bad breeding decisions and being too soft on culling totally destroy my other favorite breed. It's name is worse than mud to the general public now.

Being a breeder is dang hard. I don't envy them. And I can't really fault those who choose to cull in the traditional way (assuming the method was humane). They are trying to preserve the breed's integrity. That's more important then I think a lot of people realize.

I don't like it. But I can't really fault it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are some eastern European breeders that will kill a dog that doesn't work. Could be otherwise healthy just not possessing the intended working drives and that's enough. Plenty of American breeders that are like that too.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > I know some breeders will do this if they have a puppy of unwanted color like a solid white Great Dane. Sad.
> ...


This was about 10 years ago I'm not sure what they do now. It was the way the breeder hid what was produced. The white pup would of made a family very happy but not his fate. 

I knew a breeder who had a pup it was off I'm not sure what was wrong but had some coordination was slightly off neurological issues but was able to get around okay. Someone wished do adopt the pup and had her spayed she lived very happily for a few years.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

well yes, in the case of physical deformities and major health conditions I know of breeding programs that will euthanize a puppy. it's a decision that isn't made lightly and depending on if it can be determined which parent contributed it to the issue, one or both are altered. never thought of it as culling, but I suppose it is.

historically, and where the controversy comes in, I've always thought of culling in reference to killing pups unnecessarily due to mainly aesthetic faults... otherwise it just sounds like what would fall under best practices.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Baillif said:


> There are some eastern European breeders that will kill a dog that doesn't work. Could be otherwise healthy just not possessing the intended working drives and that's enough. Plenty of American breeders that are like that too.


Farmers/ranchers make decisions for what's best for breeding purposes.

I know a top breeder of Roller Canaries who culls. He says he cannot sell a poor singer morally and he does not want to breed it. He takes it out to a forested lake and lets it go. Food for a predator. He makes no apologies.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

When puppies are culled (euthanized) for things like in Rhodesian Ridgebacks who dont have that ridge (the fur growing opposite on the spine) are culled, that is morally wrong in my book. Also for example Merle Aussies being bred with another Merle typically is a very bad idea, as very often pups can end up being blind, deaf or both. So when breeders do this and cull the pups thats have this its wrong in my book, as it was a known consequence that 25% of the liter will end up with the gene of defective organs.
However, i haven't fully decided if culling dogs for certain deformities is wrong, i suppose is a very case by case. I have a feeling its used more often than it should be.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

My neighbor was telling me a story of how when he was a kid there was a GSD breeder in his town. So the breeder was showing his puppies to my neighbors father and he said "this one is the smallest of the bunch, I'm going to drown him". My neighbors father said "you dont have to, I'll take him". So he took him home and the pup grew to be 90 lbs and lived 15 years.


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## SadTales (Jul 20, 2016)

This one is a little stupid and sad. A friend of mine use to travel a lot, she, herself likes to go to Mexico and pickup dogs and find them homes, keep in mind these are dogs with no owners, dirty, filled with issues, etc. But she finds them suitable homes after fixing them up, cleaning them, etc. The people who adopt her dogs she rescued though are left always happy..

Anyways, to get back on topic, because she was constantly traveling to places and bringing dogs back, she was also taking looks at breeders in countries.. So basically, all parts of Canada, and some parts of the U.S here and there, always visiting them, one breeder, she met at a Petco in the U.S was showing her a black shepherd puppy (6 weeks), and was trying to sell him to her upfront for $1,850. He than showed her pictures of the mom, than the dad... All of those type of things, she than decided to take a look at what he was breeding.... Because she was curious about him, but she said she did find him attractive (which is what made her even MORE interested to take a look.)

3 Years later, she became good friends with the guy, and started dating him, never bought his puppies, never helped him raise him, but she than told me she had to witness what he was doing because they lived together.

So, basically what he was doing was, he'd put any dog that was born with a white marking.. So, white toes for example, the pups would be left abandoned, or when at a certain age, he'd put it down. He'd sometimes wait a while for the dog to age and see if the white would disappear, if it didn't than the pup got put down. Or, he'd take the puppies to constant different shelters (rotating) and saying things like; "I found these puppies in a ditch.." Some of the shelters stopped allowing him, so .. Some pups, he'd literally just leave outside in the rain in the box, or throw them in the woods, or someone's yard.

She never broke up with him, while he was doing this, she admitted that she started to 'lose' herself when she started dating the guy, but any who, after witnessing one of the pups being attacked she started following him, and or, taking puppies he left outside (the one's with the white markings)... She did this for 2 years, finding them constant homes, and not charging anyone for the pups.. Screening them too.

After that, she broke up with him and got rid of him.

Ever since that, she refuses to allow any dog to be put down. I rarely see her now though because she moved far (hours drive) from where I am, and is constantly going back and forth from Vancouver to Mexico just to bring in dogs, and puppies, she refuses to put any of them down for whatever reason, and the one's with major issues she keeps with her, and constantly works with them, she hasn't dated a guy since him too.

It's kind of sad knowing somebody would kill a puppy because a white is a 'mistake' in the breed. 

 

I regret not getting a dog from her too now that I think about it because she works her butt off.

Oh, and forgot to mention, these were pups that had NO issues other than white markings, the parents were all great dogs she said, none of them were aggressive and LOVED people, which was even more messed up.

Thinking about it now I should call her when it comes to training my pup, since she has experience with dogs like him.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SadTales said:


> Anyways, to get back on topic, because she was constantly traveling to places and bringing dogs back, she was also taking looks at breeders in countries.. So basically, all parts of Canada, and some parts of the U.S here and there, always visiting them, one breeder, she met at a Petco in the U.S was showing her a black shepherd puppy (6 weeks), and was trying to sell him to her upfront for $1,850. He than showed her pictures of the mom, than the dad... All of those type of things, she than decided to take a look at what he was breeding.... Because she was curious about him, but she said she did find him attractive (which is what made her even MORE interested to take a look.)
> 
> 3 Years later, she became good friends with the guy, and started dating him, never bought his puppies, never helped him raise him, but she than told me she had to witness what he was doing because they lived together.
> 
> ...


Just gonna say ... that "guy" sucked! Sorry your friend got mixed up with him. He did a lot of damage to "her" ... that's just sad.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

My Dane was a cull. Literally. 
Breeder bashed her over the head and tossed her in a ditch. I was hitch hiking and found her. She was about 6 weeks old.
Her coloring was flawed. Ironically she was responsible for getting him busted. He was the only breeder of harlquins in the area.
Karma is a bitch.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

voodoolamb said:


> Oh I'm going to be _that_ person today.
> 
> I think it's important to remember that the vast majority of "culls" in the non killing sense end up in _pet_ homes.
> 
> ...


I think I agree with this.

I don't have a problem with culling. It may sound cold, but I don't have any issue with ruthlessly pulling pups out of the gene pool (altering and placing) if they are healthy and nice dogs but not good breeding prospects, and I don't have an issue with euthanizing a puppy that cannot live a healthy, well-adjusted life. That goes for both health and temperament issues. I don't care if a representative of the breed is the most beautiful and perfect dog from the most beautiful and perfect parents, but I do care if a representative of the breed is capable of being happy and healthy and handling itself out in the world. Those seem to be kind of the bare minimum expectations we place on our pets - I don't know why a pup with a temperament issue would necessarily be any better suited to a pet home if the issue could lead to behavioral problems and a dangerous dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, Watery Tart's post got me thinking again. 

I am ok with culling in the sense of placing in pet homes, without papers if there is a serious fault that you do not want bred. 

I am ok with culling in the sense of putting down a dog that is physically or mentally challenged so that a reasonable decent life cannot be expected for the puppy and whoever owns the puppy. 

But I am going to go further and say that if breeders find they must euthanize a pup for health or behavioral reasons, they have to seriously consider their breeding practices that produced such a puppy. Anyone can produce a serious issue. But we don't want people euthanizing puppies left and right. The practice of breeding father to daughter, Mother to son, to produce another champion, is simply not worth it, if in a litter of 7, 2-3 puppies need to be put down -- that isn't going to happen unless the line has something serious there at the surface. Having a litter where a pup needs to be put down, and a repeat of the breeding a pup needs to be put down for the same thing, just stop. Time to back up and breed away from a dog or dogs that are carrying an undesireable trait.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Ok, Watery Tart's post got me thinking again.
> 
> I am ok with culling in the sense of placing in pet homes, without papers if there is a serious fault that you do not want bred.
> 
> ...


I think that makes total sense - if a breeder sees serious health issues pop up, then maybe don't breed those dogs again. Or if it's a female's second or third litter and the first litter(s) had all healthy puppies, maybe don't breed to that stud again. Either way, something went awry, makes sense to try to identify it and not repeat it.


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