# Might try a smaller dog



## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

Some of you may know and some of you may not know that it's been about ten years since I've had a dog in my life. The first and only dog I've ever had was a Chocolate Lab called Nutmeg, and that was basically a disaster. My brother and I (we're twins) were about 7 or 8 when we got her, and we were absolutely NO help to my parents whatsoever on training, let alone being assertive -- I'm sure you can guess that it didn't go very well.

My mother wasn't very assertive with Nutmeg either, and now that I look back on it, my Dad (he's the one who picked the dog out and brought her home) was seriously the ONLY PERSON she ever listened to. He generally has a naturally assertive nature. I swear, Nutmeg thought she was Dad's second wife. xD Every time my parents would hug, she'd get in between them and DEMAND his attention. She was pushy and walked all over us (which is our fault, I know), we basically did everything wrong under the sun with that dog, and she was so bad both off and _on_ leash, that one time, she went after a squirrel and yanked my Mom down a flight of concrete stairs. My mom broke her leg in some kind of horrific compound fracture that involved metal rods and a metal plate inserted into her leg to keep it safe. It was very very frightening, and took seemingly forever to heal. We had to get rid of the dog, (not just because we couldn't handle her, but that WAS a major factor in giving her up) my brother and I were too little to walk her, she would DRAG US down the street. She'd drag my mom down the street -- she'd even give my dad a bit of trouble. We also moved to Ohio and into a townhouse that doesn't allow pets -- not even a hamster, so our big, badly behaved but somehow still lovable dog just couldn't go with us.


Don't get me wrong, there were some good memories with Nutmeg (she stole some lady's beer can and ran down the street with it. And she stole my aunt's wig. Right off her head. There was lots of screaming and laughter in both cases, even if her behavior was REALLY BAD) but because my family remembers just how badly we messed up, Dad thinks I'm aiming a little high by wanting a German Shepherd -- no matter how trained/well-behaved it is, it will still be a massive life change for us. I can see some truth to his words, and the last thing I want to do is MESS UP AGAIN, even though I'm pretty sure I can be mature and intelligent about owning a dog. But I don't want to rush into this, and I don't want my humongous desire to own a dog now that our situation allows it to overwhelm my ability to make a smart decision about this.

So we don't find ourselves up a creek without a paddle, getting a smaller family dog would probably be a safer choice to go with before we get any German Shepherds, but nothing's set in stone. I am disappointed beyond words with the idea of pushing back getting my Shepherd even further (we'll probably end up getting the German Shepherd over the summer, if all goes well), but it could be for the best. Nothing is permanent as of right now, which means we may decide to go straight to the GSD _anyway_, but the way things are looking right now, we'll probably go with a smaller dog.

I'm currently taking suggestions on a smaller, beginner's dog though!

:help:

What would you suggest we try?

*Note:* 
Please no commentary on how we gave up too easily on the dog, or how we were stupid for getting a dog in the first place without having a full family commitment to owning one. I know we messed up. My whole family knows we messed up, but we learned a lot from it, and now we can see all of the mistakes we made and know what we SHOULD have done. Getting a dog now would be pointless if we hadn't learned anything from our last one. 


Here's what we're considering getting.

1. A Pomeranian






Honestly, xD how could anyone NOT want such a cute little ball of fuzz?
But still, it might be a little TOO small for my liking. That, and my brother had a horrible experience with Pomeranians (his friend from middle school's grandmother was a backyard breeder of Poms, and every time he went over, he was MOBBED by a mass of furry, barking, nipping, squealing fuzzballs from ****) so he's REALLY not fond of the Pomeranian idea.

2. Shetland Sheepdog






It's small but not too small, it's cute, and it's smart. I hear Shelties do pretty well at things like Flyball and Agility, right? My brother and I are both considering getting into those two activities.

3. Alaskan Klee Kai






This one is MY vote personally, and I love it for a number of reasons. xD It has that beautiful look of a husky, but it isn't anywhere near as big. It's still completely off-leash unreliable though, and I'm a little weird around _big_ huskies. XD when I was little (about 5 or 6) a large particularly furry one wanted to play with me, but it ended up scaring me half to death and pawed me in the eye. OW. I'm pretty sure it didn't mean to hurt me, xD the big ol' fur monster just wanted to play. I'm not necessarily _afraid_ of normal-sized huskies, xD I'm just a little extra-aware of how big they are, and just how easily it can be for one of them to knock me over. The Alaskan Klee Kai isn't as independent minded as a Husky, which I like a lot, and they certainly aren't as high energy.

The only problem is that these dogs are extremely difficult to find. And they dig and talk. A LOT.

*What we don't want:*

A Dachshund
A Chihuahua
A Maltese
A Bichon Frise
A terrier of any kind.

I know I've posted some _really small_ dogs, but we're willing to look into something bigger than that too. Just not as big as a German Shepherd.

Thank you for listening!


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Have you considered a Corgi? .


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

xD My brother wants a Cardigan Welsh Corgi, actually, I just forgot to add them to the list. I'm not crazy about them. I kinda prefer dogs that are a little more proportionate/longer legs. -shrug- That's just me though. xD


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Well check out Konostashi's Pom named Ozzie! Very cool dog. The only small dog I've ever had was a beagle named Pink and she was great! My parents raised Norwegian Elkhounds and while they're not a large dog they're definitely bigger than a beagle or corgi. They have the fabulous curled tail, heavy body, big fur look of a northern dog. I literally was raised in a play pen full of Elkhounds and have never felt more affection and love for a breed until I had gsds. The reason I got a beagle was because we were transferred to SoCal with a little yard and I had never had a small dog so I researched the most suitable dog. Pink and I were what my husband called "unnaturally close". She had a big dog personality in a little body, very trainable despite most opinions. Check out the Elkhounds if you want a husky type look, a beagle if you want a smaller dog


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Another option instead of getting a dog you don't really want would be to foster or start volunteering at a local shelter. You will get lots of hands on experience with many different breeds and different behavioral issues.


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## mroutdoorsman (Oct 4, 2010)

Have you thought about a Vizsla?









Basenji?









English/American Foxhound?









Belgian Tervuren?


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

Papillon or possibly a cocker spainal. Shelties are great smart easy to train dogs. I was raised with 2. Love them. So that's were my vote goes :dD


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i would avoid the klee kia. they're like husky's you think the lab was bad. try having a dog that is so indepedent they have no reason to listen to you unless you have food in your hand. Sheltie's are great dogs. Very intelligent and well behaved. Poms... well Ozzy is the only pom i like. He's a very unique pom. Poms tend to be loud and obnoxious dogs as a rule. Check out west highland white terriers. spunky and fun and SMART! very good little dogs. theres a couple others i'm sure would fit but i'll have to post later when i remember exactly which ones i'm thinking of. (been sick. head is kinda off). good luck in your search.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

sagelfn said:


> Another option instead of getting a dog you don't really want would be to foster or start volunteering at a local shelter. You will get lots of hands on experience with many different breeds and different behavioral issues.


Great advice! Just b/c dogs are smaller does not mean that they are easier to handle. In fact, some of the smaller breeds are more difficult to handle than some of the larger breeds! 

I would get experience walking and training dogs first and then, once you feel more comfortable, I would recommend adopting an mature adult dog who already has some training and is a good match for your family.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

Stosh said:


> Well check out Konostashi's Pom named Ozzie! Very cool dog. The only small dog I've ever had was a beagle named Pink and she was great! My parents raised Norwegian Elkhounds and while they're not a large dog they're definitely bigger than a beagle or corgi. They have the fabulous curled tail, heavy body, big fur look of a northern dog. I literally was raised in a play pen full of Elkhounds and have never felt more affection and love for a breed until I had gsds. The reason I got a beagle was because we were transferred to SoCal with a little yard and I had never had a small dog so I researched the most suitable dog. Pink and I were what my husband called "unnaturally close". She had a big dog personality in a little body, very trainable despite most opinions. Check out the Elkhounds if you want a husky type look, a beagle if you want a smaller dog


Norwegian Elkhounds? Really? How are they off leash?

=) I HAVE seen Konotashi's Pom, Ozzy, and he's the reason I'm considering a Pomeranian! I do find them irresistibly cute when they're younger, but when they get older, I feel as though all that fur is SMOTHERING THEM. xD I know that's not the case, and I'd like to trim their fur back a little, but I heard it's very bad for their health to do so.

I forgot to mention that we need a dog that will get along with other animals, like a cat.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

Sagelfn, that's a good idea! We have a local shelter, I don't know why I didn't think of that before!

mroutdoorsman, the Vizsla completely slipped my mind! And the Belgian Tervuren is gorgeous! The foxhound and the Basenji aren't gonna make the cut though. They won't do well with a cat in the house.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

ChristenHolden said:


> Papillon or possibly a cocker spainal. Shelties are great smart easy to train dogs. I was raised with 2. Love them. So that's were my vote goes :dD


=) A papillon is my mom's vote, I think, but so far we're learning more towards the Sheltie! My bro's rather fond of them, and I like them too.



BowWowMeow said:


> Great advice! Just b/c dogs are smaller does not mean that they are easier to handle. In fact, some of the smaller breeds are more difficult to handle than some of the larger breeds!
> 
> I would get experience walking and training dogs first and then, once you feel more comfortable, I would recommend adopting an mature adult dog who already has some training and is a good match for your family.


You have a valid point! I'll definitely talk to my family about that. We're looking for an adult dog anyway.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Raizo said:


> Sagelfn, that's a good idea! We have a local shelter, I don't know why I didn't think of that before!
> 
> mroutdoorsman, the Vizsla completely slipped my mind! And the Belgian Tervuren is gorgeous! The foxhound and the Basenji aren't gonna make the cut though. They won't do well with a cat in the house.


 
keep in mind tervurens are larger dogs, with the same energy you can expect from a GSD. You might look into a border collie. You can find a more mellow laid back dog. they're intelligent. smaller. and are easily trained and most can be very easily off leash trained.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Ok, I'm going to be pretty biased here. We own and run a 12 acre private dog club and off-leash park. We do boarding, daycare and training as well as manage the Schutzhund club. We deal with A LOT of people who get a dog and then later wonder what they were thinking (or not in some cases ). FIRST look at what the breed was intended for, hunting, sledding, companion, herding? Because that is the main characteristic you are going to be working with (in most cases, there are exceptions to every rule). Basing your first criteria on looks will get you nowhere fast, yes, if you can't stand the way a breed looks then mark it off the list, but don't choose based on that first. The GSD is a herding and working dog, so think about what you like about that trait and look for it in a smaller dog. Most of the hunting breeds are not easy to live with. Many of the retrievers have been bred into pets, but that is the minority of the hunting breeds. I'd eliminate any of the spitz family, if you like the GSD, then most of the spitz dogs will probably not be your cup of tea. Many of the small companion dogs are fun, but they can be a pain, think about it, they have been bred to have no particular skill except size for generations. Of the little guys, Papillons are cool, you see a lot of them doing agility because they are personable and fast. The Sheltie is a smaller dog in the herding family, lots of fun, but you need to do your research and find a breeder who is producing solid temperament, they have a tendency to be nervous. We have a few French Bull Dogs here in the club and they are real characters, you have to be aware that they have issues with heat, as do all of the smush faced dogs (brachycephalic).
I myself have one little guy in the house, he is a small British herding dog called a Lancashire Heeler. I found the herding personality in a tiny body (he is 19lbs). Here is a pic of one, not mine, I don't have a decent pic to post. This is my dog's cousin.








And here's a really cute puppy, just had to post the pic .


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

bocron said:


> Ok, I'm going to be pretty biased here. We own and run a 12 acre private dog club and off-leash park. We do boarding, daycare and training as well as manage the Schutzhund club. We deal with A LOT of people who get a dog and then later wonder what they were thinking (or not in some cases ). FIRST look at what the breed was intended for, hunting, sledding, companion, herding? Because that is the main characteristic you are going to be working with (in most cases, there are exceptions to every rule). Basing your first criteria on looks will get you nowhere fast, yes, if you can't stand the way a breed looks then mark it off the list, but don't choose based on that first. The GSD is a herding and working dog, so think about what you like about that trait and look for it in a smaller dog. Most of the hunting breeds are not easy to live with. Many of the retrievers have been bred into pets, but that is the minority of the hunting breeds. I'd eliminate any of the spitz family, if you like the GSD, then most of the spitz dogs will probably not be your cup of tea. Many of the small companion dogs are fun, but they can be a pain, think about it, they have been bred to have no particular skill except size for generations. Of the little guys, Papillons are cool, you see a lot of them doing agility because they are personable and fast. The Sheltie is a smaller dog in the herding family, lots of fun, but you need to do your research and find a breeder who is producing solid temperament, they have a tendency to be nervous. We have a few French Bull Dogs here in the club and they are real characters, you have to be aware that they have issues with heat, as do all of the smush faced dogs (brachycephalic).
> I myself have one little guy in the house, he is a small British herding dog called a Lancashire Heeler. I found the herding personality in a tiny body (he is 19lbs). Here is a pic of one, not mine, I don't have a decent pic to post. This is my dog's cousin.
> 
> 
> ...


 
what cute lil guys!!!!


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## mroutdoorsman (Oct 4, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> keep in mind tervurens are larger dogs, with the same energy you can expect from a GSD. You might look into a border collie. You can find a more mellow laid back dog. they're intelligent. smaller. and are easily trained and most can be very easily off leash trained.


For some reason I was thinking Tervurens were a bit smaller than a GSD but yeah I guess they are the same size...


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I also recommend a Sheltie. My previous 2 dogs were Sheltie Mixes(mostly sheltie). Great all around dogs. I wouldn't hesitate to get another one. I also recommend working at a shelter.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

How about a Border Terrier? Here's Obi, he's in a Ohio BT Rescue. (I have a friend who has one and he's a sweetie.)
www.btcco.net - Rescue


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Woah! You guys are way ADD about dogs! Haha. 

I think that you really do need to get out and see dogs that you want and really handle them. Crazy that you can go from wanting a PPD trained GSD to talking about Pomeranians! It just seems like right now you guys are throwing stuff around without really knowing what you want...I mean really really knowing what you want. 

What exactly is it that is causing you to go from GSD to a Pom? Size generally has little if anything, IMO, to do with how easy they are to handle. most little dogs I know are bears I think.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

How bout an Austrailian Shepherd? They're medium sized dogs, are smart, and are kinda similar to a GSD. 

I recommend you do research. I think you should write down ALL the qualities you want in a dog, narrow it down to the breeds that fit, and then narrow it down to the breeds that fit the most. 

Whatever you do, make sure it's what you want before you make a commitment.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

What are you looking for in terms of abilities, drive, and temperament? If we had a better idea what your needs are, maybe we could better recommend a breed.

Since you mentioned you have cats, you probably would not want to get a dog with a lot of prey drive. And you mentioned you needed a "beginner's dog" - which I am assuming to mean you want something that doesn't have tons of energy and doesn't need to be kept busy all the time mentally and physically. That would rule out Border Collies, Aussies, Shelties, etc. right there since they're all herding dogs and are going to need that exercise and training.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> keep in mind tervurens are larger dogs, with the same energy you can expect from a GSD. You might look into a border collie. You can find a more mellow laid back dog. they're intelligent. smaller. and are easily trained and most can be very easily off leash trained.


I hadn't thought to look into a Border Collie. I thought they were extremely high energy dogs?

I would like to stay within the herding group, if we're going to get a smaller dog. The Sheltie is looking very promising.

The Heeler is very cute!



> Woah! You guys are way ADD about dogs! Haha.
> 
> I think that you really do need to get out and see dogs that you want and really handle them. Crazy that you can go from wanting a PPD trained GSD to talking about Pomeranians! It just seems like right now you guys are throwing stuff around without really knowing what you want...I mean really really knowing what you want.
> 
> What exactly is it that is causing you to go from GSD to a Pom? Size generally has little if anything, IMO, to do with how easy they are to handle. most little dogs I know are bears I think.


I know, I know, xD it seems like we don't have a clue what we're doing, doesn't it? 

We still _WANT_ a German Shepherd (I feel like I'm gonna explode if I don't get one!). Getting a Pomeranian or other breed of dog is not an _alternative_ to the German Shepherd, it's generally just us getting a family dog and adjusting to having a dog again. We want something smaller to work with before we get a German Shepherd.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks for the help guys! Looks like I've got a lot more work to do before I can start threads like this. Thanks for the suggestions though, I need to get the family together so we can take the time to discuss what kind of dog we're looking for.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Shelties are lovely little dogs, but they are not for everyone. I have family (hubby's family, technically) in northern VA who have several and foster for VA Sheltie Rescue. Their website has a good article, "Are Shelties for everyone" - Are Shelties for Everyone?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Training a smaller dog is usually a lot harder than training the larger breeds....especially house breaking. It seems to me you don't believe you are equipped to own a shepherd because as a child your family lab was outta control...but that wasn't your fault you were a child. Your parents should have trained that dog, taken it to training, socialized it, and then shown you how to handle a dog. How old are you? Do you still live at home? How much say to do you have in what breed is chosen?

Shepherds are great dogs when well trained and purchased from a good breeder. They want to please you, are VERY family oriented, and will be your best friend and most loyal companion. I also have an 8 year old male lab and can tell you only their size are alike- labs definitely need different training methods because as much as they love you they want to love everyone else including strangers down the street,lol

If you have the time to go to training once a week, can train in short 5 min. sessions 3x a day from home, and can COMMIT to at least 2 walks a day with off leash running you'll be just fine. All dogs need a ton of exercise and socialization which is where it seems maybe things went wrong with your lab. It's important when you get a puppy to bring them everywhere and expose then to new places, sounds, and people. Size doesn't matter in this sense any dog you get will need a real commitment from all the people living in your home. I suggest visiting different breeds of dogs, maybe volunteering at some local shelters, and fostering different breeds. It will expose you to what you actually like and dislike about specific breeds and help you make an informed choice before bringing home your forever pet- it will also show whether or not a dog is for you right now


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I quite like Tibetan Terriers and might one day just have to have one. I have a Papillon and he is an adult and still not reliably housetrained. He's got other issues too mostly stemming from him coming from a byb (nice enough people but just bred pets for pets). I've met other Paps that are the kind I was hoping to be getting when we got Nico - he's just not turned out to be like them at all!

Does the dog have to be a purebred? If not why not check out Petfinder and nearby shelters to see some great mixed breeds. You are sure to find an adult of the size you want and it'll be easier to see what kind of personality he/she has. 

And really if it is dog experience you are hoping to get why not just foster? You'd get exposed to a variety of dogs that way!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think you are doing great to be cautious and not bite off more than you can chew. I do think that if you and your family are committed to getting a dog, and committed to training, exercising, and making a dog part of your family, then you would be ready for a German Shepherd. 

But I think it is also a good idea to start off with something less demanding to get your feet wet 



> What would you suggest we try?


If you are not set on a particular breed, I would suggest you keep an open mind and an open heart. Contact an all-breed rescue, and do consider mixed breeds too. Maybe check out some local shelters too? My first dog was a shelter dog, a Spaniel/Retriever/whoknowswhat mix, an owner surrender. 
A wonderfully friendly, playful, easy-going, well-behaved little dog with personality and fun. I always tell people that he was my confidence-building dog! Lots of wonderful treasures to be had that could be a perfect fit for you and your family.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

AbbyK9 said:


> What are you looking for in terms of abilities, drive, and temperament? If we had a better idea what your needs are, maybe we could better recommend a breed.
> 
> Since you mentioned you have cats, you probably would not want to get a dog with a lot of prey drive. And you mentioned you needed a "beginner's dog" - which I am assuming to mean you want something that doesn't have tons of energy and doesn't need to be kept busy all the time mentally and physically. That would rule out Border Collies, Aussies, Shelties, etc. right there since they're all herding dogs and are going to need that exercise and training.


Chris is right. And just to repeat: ABSOLUTELY rules out border collies, which have higher requirements than all of the others. 

Small does not mean "easy."

I'd recommend, as a beginner, you be very careful about terriers too. Border terriers, JRTs, rat terriers, etc. These dogs are a handful and require owners who are firm, consistent, and understand the terrier mind. I know someone who is a *good* border terrier breeder. She won't place her dogs in inexperienced dog homes, and she reallly prefers to place them in homes that understand the terrier mind. These are tough little prey-driven dogs. They're sweet and loving, til they see an opening, and they're gone! 

Pomeranians are nice little dogs, if a bit barky. Keep in mind that they're part of the spitz family though. 

Get a breed book (one published somewhat recently). Your local library has one, or go to a bookstore, sit on the floor and read it cover to cover if you don't want to buy one (I think every dog owner should own one, though. It helps us understand that dog coming down the sidewalk toward us a bit better). DON'T look at the pictures. Just READ the description. Take notes. Some dogs, like Cavalier King Charles Spaniels are generally really easy dogs to own. Border Collies are very challenging dogs to own (so are hounds, vizslas). Aussies have the same sorts of requirements as BCs and tend to be very noise sensitive (which BCs can be as well), which can be difficult if you don't know how to counter condition a dog. 

Cocker spaniel could be a good choice, but American cockers tend to be grumpy (even snappy) around children. So realize that (and know you'll need to socialize the heck out of your dog) or look for an English Cocker. 

Shih tzus are generally good dogs for novice owners (although you'll have to be very consistent about housebreaking). You'll need to learn how to groom your dog though. Some people think that's fun, however. Pugs are pretty easy, all things considering. I've read that Pugs can be a bit stubborn, but most of the pugs I know belong to pretty laid-back (even lazy) owners and the dogs are still obedient and sweet. Look also at Bichon Frise. Nice little dogs. And as others have mentioned, the papillon is a great dog. 

Finally, the advice to go volunteer at a shelter is great advice. You'll see for yourself exactly how certain breeds act. I LOVE how smart border collies are. I think JRTs are the cutest dogs on earth. But owning one? Nope. Not me (well, not unless I had a ton of acreage and a herd of sheep for my BC, with a barn full of mice for the JRT to catch). Being able to say "I like that breed. I admire that breed. Heck, I LOVE that breed. But that breed is not compatible with my life right now' is the mark of someone who is really ready to accept responsibility for a dog. 

The thing is, you're going to have this dog the rest of his/her life. Just as important, at some point, you're going to want to get yourself the GSD that you always dreamed of. When you bring your next puppy into your home, you want this dog (the dog you're looking at getting) to be perfectly behaved, perfectly happy in your home, totally at ease that his/her instinctual needs are being fulfilled in some way. This way, that wonderful adult will be able to welcome the puppy and help you train him. 

We see it all the time where someone has one dog that isn't well suited for them: the dog isn't well behaved, has bad habits. Then they get a puppy. Now they have compounded the problem.The pup learns all the bad behaviors. 

You're at a a great place. You know that you want a dog that's suitable now, that you're ready to love and commit to the dog now, and that you want to bring in a GSD later. You're open to what kind of dog you'll get. So really look at breed traits with respect to temperament. Yes, we all want a dog that we like to look at, but we HAVE to have a dog that we can live with.

Make sense?

Good luck with volunteering and good luck with your choice.


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## Marissa (Dec 31, 2009)

I love the corgis!!! I know you said no to a terrier but I have to say, my FAVORITE small dog is a Cairn Terrier. Feisty little guys 

The Lancashire Heeler is ADORABLE!! Im going to have to do some research on them, never heard of them. Would love to see more pics if you get some of yours that turn out !


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I wouldn't get a smaller dog if you're worried about the difficulty level of raising it because of the size. Ozzy is easier than a GSD I'd say because he doesn't have the drive GSDs do, energy level, and I don't have to feed him as much. But I do have to keep his mind pretty occupied. 
He is much higher energy than our lab ever was. He can go waaay longer during our games of fetch. We can walk a few times a day and play fetch a few times a day and he'll still have enough energy to pester the other dogs before bed time! Haha. 

Ozzy's a small dog, but I've had to work with him just as many GSD owners on here have had to work with their pups. One of the main differences I've noticed though is that Ozzy isn't a landshark which GSDs (and most likely other herding breeds) are, but I've also had to be extra-extra diligent with him on his potty training. 

I think you need a dog with high trainability (sp?) and moderate energy level. I think that maybe an American showline GSD could possibly be the way to go with that? I'm not sure if they're considered high energy or moderate energy. 
I haven't had much sleep, so I apologize if this post is kind of all over the place. :crazy:


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Energy levels vary throughout the lines in GSD's. My Zoe is from WL's but is a very chill dog in the house even amongst the chaos of two crazy kids. She NEEDS two long walks a day off leash to prevent her from becoming bored inside. Otherwise she will hide shoes, take the soles out them them, hide socks, and talk to me non-stop,lol She is a maniac for her stick outside, has great recall, and keeps my lab young. When we go in she gets a long drink and settles in with me for some cuddles and a nap.

If I were you I would talk to some GSD breeders you are interested in and tell them you need a dog that provided exercise will chill out inside and be easy to train. My lab is smart but not biddable in the way Zoe is. The lab reminds me of a crazed dog in training he is just sooooooo excited about that treat his body shakes and often acts before he hears me. Zoe watches me, listens, and performs. She is balanced in training and not my crack head lab who is a mess at time with his happiness


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with the poster who said, if you are intending to get a gsd at some point you should stay within that 'area' but in a smaller package..

My sister has paps, cute, hers are easy trainers, but they are big mouths,,shelties, nice, ALOT of grooming, and BIG barkers. 

When you get to the toys, poms, paps, that type, I think you might find them to be harder to housebreak than the bigger breeds, they can be yappy, but ARE nice pets and easy to pick up and go. 

The husky group, you are gonna find independent dogs who can be a pain to train, to independent and self serving for me.

HOnestly, I would look into corgi's, alot of the older gsd breed people when they decide to go down in size, you'll see them with corgi's.

Another breed I have and LIKE, that do compliment gsd's are aussies..Tho a tad more self serving, they are alot of fun, minimal grooming, friendly happy dogs. 

Another I would consider, (and one day I will have one) is a MINI aussie. They tend to be smaller than standards, but have just as much "go" as the standard size..

As with ANY breed, do your research (and I know you will and look for responsible breeders within that breed..


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Raizo said:


> I hadn't thought to look into a Border Collie. I thought they were extremely high energy dogs?
> 
> I would like to stay within the herding group, if we're going to get a smaller dog. The Sheltie is looking very promising.
> 
> ...


 
most border collies are VERY high energy dogs but you can find one thats a little more mellow. They LOVE training. You dont necessarily have to run them, but get them interested in fetch and doing all kinds of tricks and a couple- a few fast paced walks and you're good. They're built to run so you could even get involved with flyball. The dogs do all the running. They're intelligent like GSDs. They're just a little more in a smaller package but as long as you find an outlet for all that energy, they're some of the best dogs ever. You're not going to find a low energy herding breed. even terriers arent low energy. our dog Riley is GSD/ Border collie mix. He's got the GSD size (poor guy is about the size of a female though lol) but the speed of a border. after he turned one we didnt have issue with him chewing on anything he wasnt supposed to either.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Any breed is going to need training. And OP, if you and your family want a dog that the whole family can handle, then the whole family will have to be engaged in training.

My best advice is not to look at size, but rather training aptitude and ease of care. Small isn't the same as easy. My Pug is a spaz that ran through 3 homes before landing with us 4.5 years ago. He is MUCH more difficult to live with than my older GSD. My Aussie puppy is VERY high energy and needs just as much work and effort put into her as either of the two GSDs we live with. But she is not even half their size.

And always remember that even toy-sized dogs need training!
Sheilah


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

KZoppa said:


> most border collies are VERY high energy dogs but you can find one thats a little more mellow. They LOVE training. You dont necessarily have to run them, but get them interested in fetch and doing all kinds of tricks and a couple- a few fast paced walks and you're good. They're built to run so you could even get involved with flyball. The dogs do all the running. They're intelligent like GSDs. They're just a little more in a smaller package but as long as you find an outlet for all that energy, they're some of the best dogs ever. You're not going to find a low energy herding breed. even terriers arent low energy. our dog Riley is GSD/ Border collie mix. He's got the GSD size (poor guy is about the size of a female though lol) but the speed of a border. after he turned one we didnt have issue with him chewing on anything he wasnt supposed to either.


 I wouldn't suggest a BC as a pet for a first time owner. They are much more suited to working or performance homes or at least homes that are really active with their dogs. BCs are rather prone to developing OCD behaviors such as light/shadow chasing, which seems to be worse in pet BCs. 

I'm not sure what this person really wants in a dog, so it's hard to suggest a breed. The Belgians are the same height as GSDs are supposed to be (many GSDs are oversized) but tend to be quite a bit lighter and more compact. But I wouldn't suggest them as an "easier" alternative to a GSD at all. Most of the herding breeds are similar in their needs for socialization and training. 

However, while not a small breed I often suggest Collies for someone who likes herding breeds but wants an easier dog. If you don't like hair, there are also smooth collies, which are short haired collies. Collies tend to be friendly to everyone (definitely not guard dogs), pretty easy going but still playful, excellent family dogs and are quite trainable. They don't tend to have the sharpness or reactivity issues many of the other herding breeds have. I'd still suggest early training and socialization for sure but IME they are a lot more forgiving of mistakes. 

The Collie club has a really nice online booklet that gives a good idea of what the breed is like: Collie Club Of America: Collie as a Family Dog


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Smooth Collies is a great idea! And smooth collies can come out of a litter of rough coats. Some people think they are a different breed.


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## samralf (Dec 23, 2008)

I don't recommend a sheltie. Some can be very neurotic. I've had 3 shelties, and 1 collie. The shelties are the harder ones to raise because they are such high energy dogs. My 9 1/2 y.o gets walked for around 4 miles a day and that is still not enough for him. He barks non stop in the car and has many health issues. He has Pancreatitis, cushings, hypothyroid, many allergies, and colitis. My other sheltie would have been horrible with a first time owner. He is very non biddable. If you don't have food in your hand then he'll pretty much ignore you. It took me about a year to get him to sit without a treat in my hand. They are both sound sensitive. Charlie is the worst. He's afraid of thunder, fireworks, or any loud noise. He will run and hide in the bathroom. You also can NOT have them off leash in an unfenced yard. If you get a rescue and they see you with your dog off leash they will take them away. At least the only sheltie rescue groups I've looked at anyway. If they are spooked they will run and they can run FAST! As for grooming, I had to brush my collie everyday for 1/2 hour. For every day I missed I had to add 1/2. For me the collie was easier to groom. I don't know why but they are. If you do plan on getting a gsd later on then learn from my mistake. I thought my sheltie could handle the rough play but he could not. It was awful. I know lots of people on here have gsds playing with toy breeds and their fine. I wasn't a good enough owner and I couldnt make it work. Wally was going to get hurt and I couldn't stop it. Just something to consider. If you want any more info on shelties please ask.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

so, what are doing? first you wanted to buy a dog for $100,000's of dollars. now what are you doind???

?QUOTE=Raizo;1947867]Some of you may know and some of you may not know that it's been about ten years since I've had a dog in my life. The first and only dog I've ever had was a Chocolate Lab called Nutmeg, and that was basically a disaster. My brother and I (we're twins) were about 7 or 8 when we got her, and we were absolutely NO help to my parents whatsoever on training, let alone being assertive -- I'm sure you can guess that it didn't go very well.

My mother wasn't very assertive with Nutmeg either, and now that I look back on it, my Dad (he's the one who picked the dog out and brought her home) was seriously the ONLY PERSON she ever listened to. He generally has a naturally assertive nature. I swear, Nutmeg thought she was Dad's second wife. xD Every time my parents would hug, she'd get in between them and DEMAND his attention. She was pushy and walked all over us (which is our fault, I know), we basically did everything wrong under the sun with that dog, and she was so bad both off and _on_ leash, that one time, she went after a squirrel and yanked my Mom down a flight of concrete stairs. My mom broke her leg in some kind of horrific compound fracture that involved metal rods and a metal plate inserted into her leg to keep it safe. It was very very frightening, and took seemingly forever to heal. We had to get rid of the dog, (not just because we couldn't handle her, but that WAS a major factor in giving her up) my brother and I were too little to walk her, she would DRAG US down the street. She'd drag my mom down the street -- she'd even give my dad a bit of trouble. We also moved to Ohio and into a townhouse that doesn't allow pets -- not even a hamster, so our big, badly behaved but somehow still lovable dog just couldn't go with us.


Don't get me wrong, there were some good memories with Nutmeg (she stole some lady's beer can and ran down the street with it. And she stole my aunt's wig. Right off her head. There was lots of screaming and laughter in both cases, even if her behavior was REALLY BAD) but because my family remembers just how badly we messed up, Dad thinks I'm aiming a little high by wanting a German Shepherd -- no matter how trained/well-behaved it is, it will still be a massive life change for us. I can see some truth to his words, and the last thing I want to do is MESS UP AGAIN, even though I'm pretty sure I can be mature and intelligent about owning a dog. But I don't want to rush into this, and I don't want my humongous desire to own a dog now that our situation allows it to overwhelm my ability to make a smart decision about this.

So we don't find ourselves up a creek without a paddle, getting a smaller family dog would probably be a safer choice to go with before we get any German Shepherds, but nothing's set in stone. I am disappointed beyond words with the idea of pushing back getting my Shepherd even further (we'll probably end up getting the German Shepherd over the summer, if all goes well), but it could be for the best. Nothing is permanent as of right now, which means we may decide to go straight to the GSD _anyway_, but the way things are looking right now, we'll probably go with a smaller dog.

I'm currently taking suggestions on a smaller, beginner's dog though!

:help:

What would you suggest we try?

*Note:* 
Please no commentary on how we gave up too easily on the dog, or how we were stupid for getting a dog in the first place without having a full family commitment to owning one. I know we messed up. My whole family knows we messed up, but we learned a lot from it, and now we can see all of the mistakes we made and know what we SHOULD have done. Getting a dog now would be pointless if we hadn't learned anything from our last one. 


Here's what we're considering getting.

1. A Pomeranian





 
Honestly, xD how could anyone NOT want such a cute little ball of fuzz?
But still, it might be a little TOO small for my liking. That, and my brother had a horrible experience with Pomeranians (his friend from middle school's grandmother was a backyard breeder of Poms, and every time he went over, he was MOBBED by a mass of furry, barking, nipping, squealing fuzzballs from ****) so he's REALLY not fond of the Pomeranian idea.

2. Shetland Sheepdog





 
It's small but not too small, it's cute, and it's smart. I hear Shelties do pretty well at things like Flyball and Agility, right? My brother and I are both considering getting into those two activities.

3. Alaskan Klee Kai





 
This one is MY vote personally, and I love it for a number of reasons. xD It has that beautiful look of a husky, but it isn't anywhere near as big. It's still completely off-leash unreliable though, and I'm a little weird around _big_ huskies. XD when I was little (about 5 or 6) a large particularly furry one wanted to play with me, but it ended up scaring me half to death and pawed me in the eye. OW. I'm pretty sure it didn't mean to hurt me, xD the big ol' fur monster just wanted to play. I'm not necessarily _afraid_ of normal-sized huskies, xD I'm just a little extra-aware of how big they are, and just how easily it can be for one of them to knock me over. The Alaskan Klee Kai isn't as independent minded as a Husky, which I like a lot, and they certainly aren't as high energy.

The only problem is that these dogs are extremely difficult to find. And they dig and talk. A LOT.

*What we don't want:*

A Dachshund
A Chihuahua
A Maltese
A Bichon Frise
A terrier of any kind.

I know I've posted some _really small_ dogs, but we're willing to look into something bigger than that too. Just not as big as a German Shepherd.

Thank you for listening![/QUOTE]


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I love collie's and the smooth coat is ideal if you won't want to spend alot of time brushing.  We had a rough coat for many years. They are sweet, smart and want to be with you. But they are NOT like a GSD. A collie should be a bit easier to train and a bit more mellow. Talk to breeders and decide if a collie is right for you. 



BlackPuppy said:


> Smooth Collies is a great idea! And smooth collies can come out of a litter of rough coats. Some people think they are a different breed.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Raizo said:


> We still _WANT_ a German Shepherd (I feel like I'm gonna explode if I don't get one!). Getting a Pomeranian or other breed of dog is not an _alternative_ to the German Shepherd, *it's generally just us getting a family dog and adjusting to having a dog again. *We want something smaller to work with before we get a German Shepherd.



Based on this statement I will second the suggestion made earlier that it might make the most sense to volunteer at a shelter or rescue for a time and experience first hand the different dogs out there. Fostering is another fantastic suggestion that has already been brought up, and it seems like a kinder thing to do than to get a "starter dog" before getting the GSD you really want.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend fostering for an inexperienced family. Most of my fosters have been real handfuls. What I would strongly suggest, as a "starter" dog, is an adult or senior GSD. One over five years old or so. They have everything you love about GSDs but are much easier to handle. 



Good_Karma said:


> Based on this statement I will second the suggestion made earlier that it might make the most sense to volunteer at a shelter or rescue for a time and experience first hand the different dogs out there. Fostering is another fantastic suggestion that has already been brought up, and it seems like a kinder thing to do than to get a "starter dog" before getting the GSD you really want.


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## overtgabby (Aug 2, 2010)

Syaoransbear said:


> Have you considered a Corgi? .


 I vote for the Corgi! My little corgi mix is really cute, smart, good off leash, and brave. She wrestles with the bigger dogs, and wins!(all in fun)
She doesnt trust many people, because she was feral when we got her. Once she likes you, she is a doll!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

aren't you the same family that was considering a $100,000
trained dog? aren't you the same family that was considering
a Mal and a Shepherd for you and your brother? now you want a Pom.
**removed by mod no name calling please***.* you don't want a dog and you're not interested
in getting a dog. you're posting for your fun and the reactions
from the forum members. don't worry, keep posting because
there's a lot of people that are going to go along with you.
you're entertaining and i'm going to continue to read your post.
your posts are funny stuff. ROTFl!!!!!! i have to go. i'm going to
the woods with my dog and GF.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think raizo is doing her homework and keeping her options open


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> aren't you the same family that was considering a $100,000
> trained dog? aren't you the same family that was considering
> a Mal and a Shepherd for you and your brother? now you want a Pom.
> **removed by mod no name calling please***.* you don't want a dog and you're not interested
> ...


Please don't be mean. I am not posting for my fun and just to provoke reactions out of people. I haven't bought a single dog, I haven't even come close to buying one. I'm just trying to figure out if my family and I are able to handle a German Shepherd -- and if there was something a little easier to start with. I keep repeating that nothing's set in stone, and I do like to keep all options open. A lot of these posts are me second guessing myself. I just don't want to mess up on something like this. 

I'm sorry if you think this is some kind of joke or scam or anything.

Isn't it okay for a person to change their mind on something?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

It certainly is ok for a person to change their mind, keep their options open..All of us, (well most of us anyhow), would rather you kept asking questions, get different ideas, suggestions than have you go out buy a dog and end up not being happy with your choice. 

Don't let the 'nay sayers' deter you , maybe they fell out of the wrong side of the bed this morning


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Don't mind doggiedad. He comes across as rude pretty frequently.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

LOL Look why not meet dogs in person? Don't you know people with dogs you could hang with? If you lived closer I would tell you to meet my GSD and my Lab, then take you to meet my neighbor's pap, another neighbor's min pin, another neighbors great danes, a golden, and a schnauzer that all live in our block. Then you could read up on the one's that interest you and make an informed decision.

Why do you want a GSD to begin with?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Raizo said:


> Isn't it okay for a person to change their mind on something?


You bet, and what you're doing is much better than getting a dog and then changing your mind.


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## BadLieutenant (May 9, 2010)

I want to say to several members of this forum that " I TOLD YOU SO" but i wont....


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Why all the rudeness? This kid has only owned one family dog when he was younger and has always wanted a dog, but he is admitting he has no experience and is looking for guidance-why is this a problem? He has been honest, not rushed into anything, and is asking intelligent questions which is what we all say we wished others would do before just going out and getting a dog. Kuddos to him/her for being RESPONSIBLE, INFORMED, AND PATIENT


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

I think the rudeness comes from some members getting tired of him asking questions. But then again, if that were the case and they didn't want to answer any more of his questions, why are they even viewing this thread? Why even post?

I agree, and there's no such thing as a stupid question. Raizo, you have the right to ask as many questions as you want.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

People who do not want to answer questions can simply avoid the thread or remember that is what forums are for- this is a place to share info, stories, and yes ask questions geesh


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> Why all the rudeness? This kid has only owned one family dog when he was younger and has always wanted a dog, but he is admitting he has no experience and is looking for guidance-why is this a problem? He has been honest, not rushed into anything, and is asking intelligent questions which is what we all say we wished others would do before just going out and getting a dog. Kuddos to him/her for being RESPONSIBLE, INFORMED, AND PATIENT



Agreed! How often do people on this board complain that first time owners rush into GSD puppies without knowing what they're getting into, and then the dogs either end up as hellions tied in the backyard or in shelters. Why are we bashing someone who is going through the decision making process with us, asking for advice and input? Isn't this what we WANT people to do when considering a GSD? All this nastiness is going to accomplish is prevent people considering a GSD from being open with their thoughts in the future, which will be of no benefit to anyone. 

Thank you Raizo for having the courage to be honest with where you are at, and take the time to find the right dog for you!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I don't find anything wrong with Raizo asking questions. It shows they want to learn and make sure they end up being responsible dog owners and are happy with their final decision.

If there are certain breeds you and your family are interested in I suggest going to a dog show or even, dog shelter/rescue(all breed or breed specific) and talk to owners of that breed also. Go out and meet the dogs and see which fits your family's lifestyle. That way you will find your perfect family companion.


If someone wants be rude take it elsewhere, and don't read the thread or respond. No one needs your rude comments.


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## Dennq (Jun 21, 2010)

Well I have a GSD, a Border Collie, and and my Moms Sheltie.

Sheltie. They like to bark and need tons of grooming. If you aren't into bathing or brushing stop right there. I have my Moms Sheltie since she passed away. Smart little dogs. My Mom always had Shelties. Would I get another after he passes... No.

Border Collies. Awsum dogs. Smart, smart, smart. I have had two. They are either on number 10 or 
number 0. Minimum grooming. Just wash and go. If you don't brush them for two weeks it doesn't matter 
they still look great. Learns extremely fast. They are 
fairly high energy but having multiple dogs tires them 
all out. I find smaller dogs have tons more energy than Border Collies. I will always own one! Make sure they have a job. Inside my house it's "go to bed"

GSD. I have had two. My other GSD that passed in June was fairly laid back. Very quiet in the house but when it was playtime outside he ran like a deer. He always had a ball in his mouth. He had an extremely high prey drive. I miss him.

My new GSD pup Ranger is totally laid back 90% of the time. He is happy to sleep in the house and gets tons of exercise with myself and the two other dogs. Doesn't require a lot of grooming. A good once a week brushing is usually good for most of the year.

I will always have both a GSD and a Border Collie.
I will


My rules play outside but no wrestling in the house.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

I wanted to thank everyone for all of their help and support, you really are a forum unlike any other. As of right now, what breed we get is definitely up in the air -- but the whole family (well, mom excluded, she's a cat person) is leaning towards the German Shepherd (I think this thread was me balking on getting a GSD out of guilt for not doing right by my lab Nutmeg, afraid I'd mess up a dog I'm trying so hard to do right by). I think that's how things will play out until I can get down to my local Schutzhund Club to determine if this is the right breed for me and my family (I've already contacted the person in charge of the club to see what days they train). It's really just a matter of scheduling.

If the German Shepherd Dog is unsuitable for me (which, having become a big fan of the breed might take a while for me to accept), then I shall take into consideration everything you have suggested on this thread, and research as much as I can. Until my club visit, I'm going to continue doing my research here on this forum, so I apologize for any future (seemingly) unending stream of questions -- I'm sure you guys will eventually get sick of all the threads! 

My current research agenda is to establish a list of reputable breeders of both Working Lines (Czech, DDR) and German Show Lines that I can narrow down as time progresses and when I can finally determine which line is right for me.

I thank you all again for your tremendous help. You guys have been nothing but supportive!

Stay warm this winter and Happy Holidays,
Madeline


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I enjoy bigger dogs more than smaller dogs but here are some small dogs that I like.

The Shiba Inu (I have known 2 and I loved them, I will definitly have one when I am older and can no longer handle a big dog)










The Papillon (another option for when I am older)









The Pomeranian (Dont think that I will ever want one but I've met several I liked)









The Basenji (I saw one that looked just like Wesley Snipes!)









The English Bulldog (when I was dating my ex he almost came home with one!)









The Sheltie (I've known a couple of them, very sweet and friendly)









The Australian Shepherd (I will definitly have one someday in my life)









The Border Collie (love them)









The Westie (who can resist that face!)









Miniature Pinschers (my sister has one and my best friend has 2, I love them)


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

I love Shiba Inus! But I fear for the safety of any cat we get. :embarrassed:
That goes double for the Basenji, but I love everything on the list so far. I've also been hearing very good things about the _Miniature_ Australian Shepherd. The westie, the sheltie, the pom and the shiba are my favorites personally. That Westie is adorable!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Raizo said:


> I love Shiba Inus! But I fear for the safety of any cat we get. :embarrassed:
> That goes double for the Basenji, but I love everything on the list so far. I've also been hearing very good things about the _Miniature_ Australian Shepherd. The westie, the sheltie, the pom and the shiba are my favorites personally. That Westie is adorable!


Both Shiba Inu's I knew didn't live with cats, so I dont know if there was an exception or not. 

But I absolutely love Shiba's! I dont plan on getting anymore cats once my 3 pass on. I love cats but I dont like the whole pooping in the house thing and them scratching my stuff and walking on my counters. So getting a Shiba wont be a problem in the future.

I love Aussies! That is definitly a breed that I will own one day.

Shelties are good dogs. Sweet, silly and friendly. I enjoy them but I doubt i'll ever own one.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

It seems a lot of people get Aussies to compliment their GSDs. I would like to own a Shiba one day, but after I've racked up some experience points. I hear they can be a handful?
I think Shelties are just beautiful. Nice colors, soft fur, an elderly woman with a ride-on-scooter takes her 13-year-old Sheltie (who sometimes wears a Cleveland, Cavaliers Jersey) out on a very short walk about once or twice a day. He's a very very cute little guy, and I've had the opportunity to pet him once.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Raizo said:


> It seems a lot of people get Aussies to compliment their GSDs. I would like to own a Shiba one day, but after I've racked up some experience points. I hear they can be a handful?
> I think Shelties are just beautiful. Nice colors, soft fur, an elderly woman with a ride-on-scooter takes her 13-year-old Sheltie (who sometimes wears a Cleveland, Cavaliers Jersey) out on a very short walk about once or twice a day. He's a very very cute little guy, and I've had the opportunity to pet him once.


Yes, there seems to be quite a few GSD and Aussie owners out there. I belong to an Aussie forum and there are quite a few with GSD's or used to have a GSD.

The 2 Shiba's I knew were smart, playful, energetic dogs. I taught them a couple of tricks (I used to be a dog walker) and they caught on fast but they got bored after you kept repeating it, haha.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Raizo said:


> I hadn't thought to look into a Border Collie. I thought they were extremely high energy dogs?
> 
> I would like to stay within the herding group, if we're going to get a smaller dog. The Sheltie is looking very promising.
> 
> The Heeler is very cute!


 
border collies are VERY high energy dogs but you can find them with lower energy. They're similar to shepherds in that sense. You can find a lower energy dog or such a high energy dog you think they may explode. If i remember correctly you wanted to be very active with your dog anyway so a border collie wouldnt be a bad option if you were commited. Heeler are high energy as well but tend to have a great deal of prey drive. I've known ONE heeler who adored cats. In the house and outside. All others i have met have wanted nothing more than to have a snack. Border collies are so insanely intelligent they're number one on the dog intelligence list. If raised with cats, they should do fine, just like most other breeds. 

FYI on shelties, some tend to be shy,snippy and fearful so if you go that route, make sure you get one from a reputable breeder whose dogs are friendly, happy and outgoing types. or look into a rescue who can help you find a friendly outgoing dog in their program.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm an admirer of the Border Collie's intelligence, but I'd be a little alarmed by how high energy they are! If I could find one with a lower energy than what you've been describing, they could very well work. I do like them though. =) 

The Sheltie the elderly woman had seemed very nice, but I don't know the history of that dog or where she got him. He was old so he'd slowed down quite a bit; I've yet to experience meeting a younger Sheltie. What I'd really like to get a first hand experience with is still the Shiba Inu. Such interesting little dogs they are.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Raizo said:


> I'm an admirer of the Border Collie's intelligence, but I'd be a little alarmed by how high energy they are! If I could find one with a lower energy than what you've been describing, they could very well work. I do like them though. =)
> 
> The Sheltie the elderly woman had seemed very nice, but I don't know the history of that dog or where she got him. He was old so he'd slowed down quite a bit; I've yet to experience meeting a younger Sheltie. What I'd really like to get a first hand experience with is still the Shiba Inu. Such interesting little dogs they are.


 
i wouldnt recommend a Shiba inu. they are definitely not the dog for everyone and i would recommend a GSD for a first time dog owner LONG before i'd ever recommend a Shiba. Shiba are a please themselves dog and couldnt give a rats behind about you. To me, they're like mini Akita's. Just not a breed i would recommend. Some people they work really great for but most others should stay away from them. Given you guys are looking for a more please the owner type of breed, a shiba wouldnt be a breed i would suggest looking at. Especially if you want to stay with herding breeds. If you go the shelter route, definitely go to a reputable breeder or see what you can find in a rescue. Border collie i would suggest going through a rescue if you're looking for a lower energy BC or finding a breeder who breeds pet quality instead of working quality BCs as pet quality tend to have less drive and energy but are still energetic. Given proper exercise they should be fine in the house. My uncle has a pet quality BC named Gracie. She'll play fetch until his arm falls off but once inside she's calm and relaxed and content to crash at his feet for hours on end. the minute that ball comes out though, she's already outside before he can catch up. She's about 2 years old now.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

Oh no, I wasn't looking to get a Shiba FIRST. I'd get them later on in life, I was just expressing how much I'd like to meet one. I've never had the good fortune to meet one up close. 

Huskies are like that too, aren't they? They have fairly large independent streaks, if I'm understanding that right. The Border Collies are definitely something to keep in mind for the family! I'm already making a list of dogs to look into in case the GSD doesn't work.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Raizo said:


> Oh no, I wasn't looking to get a Shiba FIRST. I'd get them later on in life, I was just expressing how much I'd like to meet one. I've never had the good fortune to meet one up close.
> 
> Huskies are like that too, aren't they? They have fairly large independent streaks, if I'm understanding that right. The Border Collies are definitely something to keep in mind for the family! I'm already making a list of dogs to look into in case the GSD doesn't work.


yeah husky's are like that too. Shiba's tend to be VERY standoffish and even snippy with people outside their specific person or couple of people. They're not a friendly type. So meeting one in person might actually turn you away from the breed. GSDs and other breeds warm up to people. Shiba's dont tend to do that even if they know you. They're great with their owners but thats about it. I've met several husky's who were very awesome dogs in the house but still never made me want one. I have cats too so a husky or a shiba would be out of the question for me even if i did want them. Aussies are HIGH energy dogs. I've yet to meet a low energy aussie. You could also look into Dutch Shepherds and Malinois. There are several people on this board who could tell you more about those two breeds. They're similar to GSDs but smaller builds. I personally would love to have a dutchie but i have to wait until my kids are a great deal older before i look into them seriously as a family member. But they also tend to be high energy dogs but smart as h*ll. There is actually a breed survey you can take to help determine which breeds might be good for you. 
This link should take you directly to the breed quiz. 
Breed Selector, Dog Search, Puppy Survey, Puppy Test, Test to find the right dog, Breed Quiz

maybe that will help you some.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Raizo said:


> Oh no, I wasn't looking to get a Shiba FIRST. I'd get them later on in life, I was just expressing how much I'd like to meet one. I've never had the good fortune to meet one up close.


Uuuugh. Shiba's are the spawn of the devil. I've met several and have had a couple in my OB classes and they are downright nasty. They would basically flat out ignore the owner unless they felt like doing something or felt the food "bribe" was good enough. They growled several times at other people. One snapped at the instructor of the class when he was trying to do a "lure" down. Perhaps I've bad luck only to enounter nasty ones...but I really did not see a single quality in any of them that seems like they would be a good animal to own.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Raizo said:


> I hadn't thought to look into a Border Collie. I thought they were extremely high energy dogs?


I have a Border Collie and a Border Collie/Aussie mix and the Border Collie was really calm (when he was younger)which isn't typical for the breed, but you can get a calm mellow BC. I guess I just got lucky lol. He'd have his moments where he's get hyper, but that was rare. We got him when he was about 1 1/2. Also I'd like to point out, I don't know if this has been said yet, but Vizsla's are known to be extremely high energy dogs. When we were looking for a third dog so our BC mix would bond to (in hopes it'd make our older dogs passing easier on her) we looked in to a Vizsla because they hardly shed, they don't smell like a dog, and you only have to wipe them twice a week with a soft cloth the only catch was they are really high energy and there was no way we could work off all it's energy (breeders words, not mine). Just something to keep in mind if you look in to Vizsla


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> yeah husky's are like that too. Shiba's tend to be VERY standoffish and even snippy with people outside their specific person or couple of people. They're not a friendly type. So meeting one in person might actually turn you away from the breed. GSDs and other breeds warm up to people. Shiba's dont tend to do that even if they know you. They're great with their owners but thats about it. I've met several husky's who were very awesome dogs in the house but still never made me want one. I have cats too so a husky or a shiba would be out of the question for me even if i did want them. Aussies are HIGH energy dogs. I've yet to meet a low energy aussie. You could also look into Dutch Shepherds and Malinois. There are several people on this board who could tell you more about those two breeds. They're similar to GSDs but smaller builds. I personally would love to have a dutchie but i have to wait until my kids are a great deal older before i look into them seriously as a family member. But they also tend to be high energy dogs but smart as h*ll. There is actually a breed survey you can take to help determine which breeds might be good for you.
> This link should take you directly to the breed quiz.
> Breed Selector, Dog Search, Puppy Survey, Puppy Test, Test to find the right dog, Breed Quiz
> 
> maybe that will help you some.


I've heard pretty good things about the Dutchies and the Mals. I'm actually fonder of the Dutch Shepherd than I am of the Malinois, but I'm sure either one would be a great companion. I've actually taken that test before, it came back with a lot of breeds I couldn't pronounce and a lot of breeds I probably couldn't even FIND. 

Ainu Dog
Airedale Terrier
Alopekis (Any idea on the pronunciation?)
Alpine Dachsbracke
Azawakh (Pronunciation?)
Belgian Mastiff
Berger des Picard
Bernese Mountain Dog
Black Mouth Cur
Cardigan Welsh Corgi
Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Sloughi
Swedish Vallhund

Ainu Dog Information and Pictures, Hokkaido Dog, Ainu Dogs
That dog already just looks like trouble. xD Like a bigger Shiba Inu.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Uuuugh. Shiba's are the spawn of the devil. I've met several and have had a couple in my OB classes and they are downright nasty. They would basically flat out ignore the owner unless they felt like doing something or felt the food "bribe" was good enough. They growled several times at other people. One snapped at the instructor of the class when he was trying to do a "lure" down. Perhaps I've bad luck only to enounter nasty ones...but I really did not see a single quality in any of them that seems like they would be a good animal to own.


 Yeesh! They sound...erm...bad. Sounds almost like their looks is all they've got going for them! I'm sure a well-bred Shiba might be a little more appealing? I can't even imagine what a poorly bred Shiba would be like :lurking:


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

DCluver33 said:


> I have a Border Collie and a Border Collie/Aussie mix and the Border Collie was really calm (when he was younger)which isn't typical for the breed, but you can get a calm mellow BC. I guess I just got lucky lol. He'd have his moments where he's get hyper, but that was rare. We got him when he was about 1 1/2. Also I'd like to point out, I don't know if this has been said yet, but Vizsla's are known to be extremely high energy dogs. When we were looking for a third dog so our BC mix would bond to (in hopes it'd make our older dogs passing easier on her) we looked in to a Vizsla because they hardly shed, they don't smell like a dog, and you only have to wipe them twice a week with a soft cloth the only catch was they are really high energy and there was no way we could work off all it's energy (breeders words, not mine). Just something to keep in mind if you look in to Vizsla


Instead of the Vizsla what breed of dog did you go with to keep your BC mix company? I'm not really in love with the Vizsla myself, I'd rather try a calm, mellow Border Collie or even a Corgi, so I'll probably scratch that off my list. xD I had no idea they were so high energy!


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Raizo said:


> Instead of the Vizsla what breed of dog did you go with to keep your BC mix company? I'm not really in love with the Vizsla myself, I'd rather try a calm, mellow Border Collie or even a Corgi, so I'll probably scratch that off my list. xD I had no idea they were so high energy!


We ended up adopting our GSD, Dodger for Molly (the BC.Aussie mix). 

Neither did we until the breeder said they're known to be extremely high energy that they make a hyper Border Collie look mellow lol. Of course you could look for a calmer Vizsla.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

I haven't read any of the responses and won't bother, here's my two cents:

If it's between the breeds you've listed...Sheltie! I have a Sheltie Mix (With what, I don't know, but you can see the predominance is Sheltie) and she's absolutely wonderful. She's just as intelligent as my Shepherd and listens extremely well. Not that I advocate it, but I can walk her down the sidewalk with no leash. She stays on my left, won't veer off the walkway, and if I say "stop" (Such as when we reach a street corner) she will do so dead in her tracks and stay until I release her. I take her hiking (Off leash when it permits) and she won't even stray off the path. As I said, she's very smart, obedient, listens well, she's just a great girl. Not to mention Shelties are beautiful looking dogs!


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> FYI on shelties, some tend to be shy,snippy and fearful so if you go that route, make sure you get one from a reputable breeder whose dogs are friendly, happy and outgoing types. or look into a rescue who can help you find a friendly outgoing dog in their program.



I haven't seen many shy, snippy Shelties...Though it doesn't mean this information is incorrect. My Sheltie Mix came to me abused from a Shelter. Submissive peer, scared of other dogs, people, cars, doorways. It was bad. After about 6 months of working with her (It's now been about 2 1/2 years since I adopted her) she became a completely different dog. No more urinating out of fear, so much more confidence. If you go the breeder route, obviously make sure they're reputable and you shouldn't have an issue.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Viszlas have a ridiculous amount of energy! Same as the Weimaraner and the Rhodesian Ridgeback. 

I have met 4 Viszlas.

My Aunt used to have one that she raised as a puppy and about the time that it was 3 years old it became extremely aggressive and crazy. It bit 2 of her 4 kids (they are in their 30's) and the final straw was when he bit her husband.

When I walk Sinister around the lake there was a man that rode his bike and had his Viszla running next to him that used to go around the lake 5 times with him  The lake is 2.5 miles around! He said the dog would still have tons of energy when they got home! :wild:

My friends mom dog sits for 2 Viszla's and they wear her the heck out. She has over an acre of land and she lets them out and they run and play for hours and they still have more energy at night.

Viszla's are gorgeous, silly and fun dogs but NO THANK YOU! :crazy:


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

samralf said:


> The shelties are the harder ones to raise because they are such high energy dogs.


I think I figured out what my Sheltie is mixed with....Lazy!  She's extremely mellow around the house. She doesn't do anything destructive out of boredom and appears more than content to lay in her doggie bed all day. If she gets in a situation where she can run around though, you better believe she loves to run!

My Shepherd is also very mellow around the house, also no destructive behaviors. As soon as I bust out the leash, however, all heck breaks loose. 

I think it really depends on the personality of the dog.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Viszlas have a ridiculous amount of energy! Same as the Weimaraner and the Rhodesian Ridgeback.
> 
> I have met 4 Viszlas.
> 
> ...



So true about the Vizsla. I have a friend who has three and they're beyond ridiculous. I thought Koda got excited about things, he doesn't even compare. They're very beautiful, loving, loyal dogs...But wwwaaaaaayyyyy too much for people sometimes.


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## jmk83 (Nov 17, 2010)

Maybe you should consider adoption. You could most likely find a dog that is one of the small breeds you are looking for. My sister adopt a young shih tzu who was already house broken and well behaved in the home. A young adult who is already semi-trained might be a good way for your family to get back in to having a dog in the family. Just my humble opinion


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm leaning towards considering a rescue dog, jmk83. =) That's always been a faint thought at the back of my mind.




LaRen616 said:


> Viszlas have a ridiculous amount of energy! Same as the Weimaraner and the Rhodesian Ridgeback.
> 
> I have met 4 Viszlas.
> 
> ...


 They sound like energizer bunnies! OMG. Definitely not getting a Vizsla. Sounds like I'd have to be a professional athlete to keep up with it, let alone wear it out!

Rhodesian Ridgebacks too? :shocked: They're so beautiful, but if their energy level is like that of a Vizsla...:help:

I'm very fond of the shelties, and even more so of the Miniature Aussies as I've done a little bit of research on them. =) both dogs I'd be happy to have, I think.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah all the Vizslas I know are really really active/hyper too. Maybe even more so than Weimaraners. For some reason Vizslas are really popular here, they're in the AKC's top ten breeds for Chicago so I've met quite a few. 
Most of the Shelties I've known have been shy and barky.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

heres another breed you may want to consider. Irish setters or gorden setters. They're beautiful intelligent dogs. relatively relaxed. energetic outside, good companions. Irish setters though are prone to cancers from a fairly young age so a reputable breeder would be my suggestion on that one. but thats not to say you couldnt find one in a rescue. I've met several who were just amazing and i wouldnt mind having one in my family.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Weims tend to have an aggressive streak recently so a reputable breeder would be ideal if you go that route and Vizla are just wacky high energy all over the place have trouble focusing kind of dogs. least the ones i've met.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I agree with the poster who mentioned fostering or rescuing a dog....


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## chinamom2 (Sep 16, 2007)

I agree that a small dog isn't necessarily any easier to care for then a larger dog. Vizslas are very high energy dogs and Shiba Inu, well I have met a few nasty ones, not only to their owners, but to other people and dogs.

Going from GSD to a little dogs sounds like you are struggling with what kind of dog you want. Ask yourself what you really want in a dog and can you meet its' needs also. What is your lifestyle going to be like and will it mesh with the breed you choose? Are you ready to take on the responsiblity for meeting your dog's needs. Training and any speciality sports, such as flyball, agility, dockdiving, etc. are both time consuming and carry an added expense. Can you meet those needs?

Why do I ask these questions? Because I do rescue work and volunteer at our local county shelter. Most dogs I take out of the kennel bounce all over me then proceed to drag me down the hallway to get to the outside yard. Few have training, most aquired by people who either couldn't or wouldn't make the effort it takes to have a balanced dog. Somewhere along the line that cute pup grew up and an untrained and unruly adolescent dog isn't much fun to own.

I meet some great people who come to the shelter knowing what dog will suit their lifestyle, but most are just looking for the cutest dog they can find.

Volunteer at your local shelter. They are crammed full of purebred and mixes. Get a feel for the kind of dog you would like and how you will incorporate this dog into your life. Dogs are a huge commitment. Do your research and take your time. Most of all best wishes finding a great dog.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> I agree with the poster who mentioned fostering or rescuing a dog....


^^ It's being brought into consideration.

Didn't the Irish Setter win the AKC dog show this year?

And I'm not a big fan of Weimeraners, strangely enough, they're one of the few breeds my mom likes.


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

chinamom2 said:


> I agree that a small dog isn't necessarily any easier to care for then a larger dog. Vizslas are very high energy dogs and Shiba Inu, well I have met a few nasty ones, not only to their owners, but to other people and dogs.
> 
> Going from GSD to a little dogs sounds like you are struggling with what kind of dog you want. Ask yourself what you really want in a dog and can you meet its' needs also. What is your lifestyle going to be like and will it mesh with the breed you choose? Are you ready to take on the responsiblity for meeting your dog's needs. Training and any speciality sports, such as flyball, agility, dockdiving, etc. are both time consuming and carry an added expense. Can you meet those needs?
> 
> ...


Thank you, I'll try to be intelligent about this.
I admit that I did have a moment of wavering as to what dog breed I should get, and I _am_ leaning back heavily towards the German Shepherd, and I'm planning a visit out to my nearest Schutzhund Club quite soon (no set date yet), so that will definitely help in my decision making.

There are a LOT of labs and pit bulls at my nearest shelter, but I'll go check it out anyway. I found a list of their dogs on pet finder and I see that they have some collie mixes, a vizsla, a couple hounds, beagles, and wow!  Some Chow-Chows. I don't know why, but I didn't expect to find any Chow Chows 'round here.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I had 2 Sheltie Mixes previously and they were 2 of the best dogs ever! Neither was shy or barky. Both were friendly and energetic. I recommend Shelties also, and also adopting, or fostering a dog.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

This was probably suggested already, but what about getting a smaller German Shepherd mix? I don't know how it is where you live, but around here there are tons of Shepherd mixes looking for homes.


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## chinamom2 (Sep 16, 2007)

Raizo said:


> There are a LOT of labs and pit bulls at my nearest shelter, but I'll go check it out anyway. I found a list of their dogs on pet finder and I see that they have some collie mixes, a vizsla, a couple hounds, beagles, and wow!  Some Chow-Chows. I don't know why, but I didn't expect to find any Chow Chows 'round here.


Raizo, definitely go and check out your shelter, petfinders doesn't even begin to list all the dogs that are available in shelters. I am not sure where you are in Ohio but you might check some of the larger city shelters. Here in Dayton you won't find any pits or pit mixes; they are required by law to euthanize them. Lots of labs, but lets face it, if it looks even remotely like a lab, it is called a lab. All our dogs are temperment tested before they are placed on the adoption floor. 

With the economy we are getting a lot of purebred dogs (which doesn't necessarily mean well-bred). Last few weeks among the dogs we have had are; GSDs, St. Bernards (probably about the 7th one since mid-summer), huskies, pomeranians, dachshunds, chihuahuas, maltese, and yes chows. That is just a small sprinkling of the PB dogs we get. Also, plenty of gsd mixes. Among these dogs are some real gems.

Consider rescues that foster their dogs and finding a reputable breeder is a great option also.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Savannah Cats and Kittens For Sale

This is the way to go!!!! If you have any problem with mice........or small children for that matter, this is the ticket!!!


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

I've actually found a shelter that's 10 minutes away from us. We live near Kingsville, OH, about 4+ hours away from Dayton. =) There are other shelters in the area that are maybe worth visiting, but we're going to start with what's closest for now. Chows? I have a strange affection for Chows, a part of me wants to just pet one to my heart's content, but another part of me is a little wary of them. I wonder if Chows are so popular due to Martha Stewart having one? They call him Genghis Khan, don't they? GK for short. 

The shelter nearest me actually offers foster programs, and off-site adoption booths, I believe I'm old enough to man the booth. One of their off-site booths is actually in a mall really close to me, and they have it on Saturdays -- every time we happen to go to the mall on Saturday, I make an effort to go in and see them, give the cats some cuddles and interact with the dogs. To volunteer though I have to work on getting the whole family to sign up to volunteer and then we can all go down together and spend some time with the dogs. Dad's really concerned that we don't have enough confidence around animals to be successful dog owners just yet. I am determined to prove him wrong.

Getting a German Shepherd _mix_ is actually a really good idea. Lots to think about!


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> Savannah Cats and Kittens For Sale
> 
> This is the way to go!!!! If you have any problem with mice........or small children for that matter, this is the ticket!!!


LOL!

My brother's actually gaga for them right now. xD It's the only cat he's ever really fallen head-over-heels for D of course, he's also the one with a dislike of both mice and small children); Mom thinks they're alotta cat. Lol. I think they're fabulous.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Raizo said:


> The shelter nearest me actually offers foster programs, and off-site adoption booths, I believe I'm old enough to man the booth.


I would definitely suggest looking into fostering if you're not sure about a dog or what type would be best. It's a great way to get experience with different types of dogs as well as help them, and it is also possible that you may end up finding the perfect dog to adopt by fostering. :thumbup:


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## Raizo (Sep 24, 2010)

Chicagocanine said:


> I would definitely suggest looking into fostering if you're not sure about a dog or what type would be best. It's a great way to get experience with different types of dogs as well as help them, and it is also possible that you may end up finding the perfect dog to adopt by fostering. :thumbup:


 Thanks Chicagocanine, it's definitely something for me to look into!

I'll keep you guys posted.
I already spoke to my parents and got the green light to go volunteer at my nearest shelter. Hopefully my brother will bring his camera and I can finally get pictures to show you guys.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

being in the position you guys are in in regards to dogs, i would suggest you stay away from the asian breeds aka chows, shiba inu's, akitas. They are DEFINITELY not breeds i would suggest or suggest easily . they're not easy breeds to handle for sure IMO. 

we currently have a 6 year old male GSD/border collie mix. he's self entertaining (he will play on his own) and he's pretty mellow most of the time. He's our first GSD based dog before we stepped up to PBs. Enjoy volunteering. you'll learn a lot and you'll have fun.


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