# Teaching Bark and Hold



## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Forgive me in advance if this is a stupid question. LOL!

If the dog needs to learn to come into the blind and bark and hold, why do I see some helpers who are teaching it, walk toward the dog and give him a bite? Why not just stay there and throw the pillow like some do?

I'd greatly appreciate understanding the reasoning to one approach over the other. TIA. :smile2::smile2:


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

The dog barking the helper in, teaches the dog that it can move the helper with his bark. It will also start to piece together the dog barking in rhythm. You will also see the dog barking coming 2 steps forward while the helper takes one step back. Then you will usually see the dog barking himself into a stationary helper. Then a helper standing to the back side of a blind, building, etc... then eventually helper standing inside of the blind with the dog coming in. It all has a purpose and a place in the training and building of the dog. 
Throwing the pillow around the dog pushes the dog into prey drive. That also has a place in building the drive along with pressure and the release of said pressure.
I probably missed a whole bunch of stuff that may have answered your question better but that's the jest of it.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

@cdwoodcox, So both methods are used for different reasons? does the dog really GET that he is able to control the helper?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

throwing a pillow isn't something I ever see, nor do my dog get rewarded that way where the B&H exercise is concerned.
I want the grips to be rewarded, and the dog to engage the helper, push in, not pull. As far as the B&H exercise I agree with CD, the power of the bark is what moves the helper, and the dog learns that during the foundation training. Prey barks and defensive barking are different, and you want that balance when teaching.
We work the dog out in the open early, then bring them into the blind gradually. 
Some dogs are naturally gifted with a powerful B&H, and not intimidated regardless of where they are working....others need more confidence building and the good helper knows how to time it, work it and reward.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Throwing the pillow around and working at a distance with the pillow and long line can be used for prey drive building or it can be used to engage the dog with little pressure from the decoy. Some dogs need both some dogs may need neither. Basically it all is a building process.
Think of teaching a child addition, subtract, multiplication, and division. Some kids may require flash cards to help them some may not. Once those have been learned they can move onto Algebra, geometry, etc...

Onyx is correct about not giving the dog bites from a thrown pillow. Once the dog is committed to prey "the thrown pillow" then the decoy will move in to give a bite. They then have the option of utilizing the long line to create distance and still be able to move the prey and keep pressure to hold a grip.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

I am learning! LOL! But i think I didn't explain my question correctly. 

What I meant, was this: since in a trial, the dog Never gets a bite in the blind, why are we rewarding that way?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How you reward could depend on the dog. Mine likes to crowd the helper and when he does, locks up in prey. Throwing the sleeve out of the blind would put the reward line back so the dog is thinking get the sleeve. Where that backfires is....when the dog is thinking get the sleeve and anticipating the sleeve being thrown over the doing to bark and hold. Also, throwing the sleeve puts the dog back into prey. So if you have a dog tht needs to be worked in aggression, that is not the picture you want.

We also would pull him back from the blind so the helper could pop out of the blind and run like an escape bite. I really liked the results from that.

We use the board to maintain proper distance and he gets reward in the blind with a bite. That again, causes him to want to push forward.

I think the reward in teh blind needs to be a careful balance of reward lines.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Teaching the dog to be called out of the blind, is a different exercise than the B&H. 
That should be done out of the blind as well...handler can do it to start with a ball...put a ball or high value item and have the dog call off it to fuss position.
I never did it that way, but used a line and gave a correction with a fuss command. My dogs brain in protection needed the correction to give him that moment to comply. We started it out in the open, though, not in the blind. It depends on the dog and how clear they are, IMO. Some can call out easily, others not. I liked it when my dog would back up to me without turning.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

gsdluvr said:


> I am learning! LOL! But i think I didn't explain my question correctly.
> 
> What I meant, was this: since in a trial, the dog Never gets a bite in the blind, why are we rewarding that way?


 Reward the behavior you want. Same as using toys or food for obedience. They don't get them during trial but they aid in learning a behavior.
Dog comes in bark, bark, bark. Bite. Build it up until the dog holds his bark long enough for the handler to walk up and either get the dog or call it off. Always mixing up when the dog gets a bite so the dog is always anticipating and holding his intensity.
You'll see dogs getting bites during transport also. That is never gonna happen in trial. but it rewards a desired behavior.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

bites during transports...helper should come into the dog for that so forging isn't happening, but randomizing it is good too. 
I like the contact heeling with a transport, keeps the dog with the handler. Karlo stalks, goes low, and is very long in body, forging is easy for him during that, so I want him basically touching my leg with his shoulder during a transport exercise.

Every exercise has different reward placements which all depends on the dog, and the actual exercise, and randomizing is essential within. 
I never pattern trained because my dog would get bored with it, others pattern train constantly and have the reward coming at key points within the pattern.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

gsdluvr said:


> @*cdwoodcox*, So both methods are used for different reasons? does the dog really GET that he is able to control the helper?


Yes and controlling the helper is what we want to teach the dog. That they are in control. It doesn't just help in the blind, it helps on the field after the outs. 

I have seen too many helpers over the years move the dogs into the blinds too soon and then have to help the dog. They bark and then stop so the helper hits his/her leg, the dog barks a little, etc. The dog in this situation is learning to react to the helper instead of controlling the helper.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

lhczth said:


> gsdluvr said:
> 
> 
> > @*cdwoodcox*, So both methods are used for different reasons? does the dog really GET that he is able to control the helper?
> ...


Exactly.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Great answers! I am going to reread all of them 20X! This is so friggin' interesting since I now have a dog that can do it!!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

gsdluvr said:


> Great answers! I am going to reread all of them 20X! This is so friggin' interesting since I now have a dog that can do it!!


Did you find a club to train with? It's even better in person doing it.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Yes. I just wanted some in depth explanation about what I am doing!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> bites during transports...helper should come into the dog for that so forging isn't happening, but randomizing it is good too.


I think this also depends on the dog. What battle are you fighting that day? Trouble getting them to look forward at the helper? Then you want to send them for the bite. Forging? Bring the helper in? Intensity? Helper can attack.

Once the dog knows to stay with you in the transport, all of those things should be done and it's up to the handler to call for which one they want.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

I’m glad to see the recognition of foundation work here. Too many helpers get the dog to the blind before the hold and bark controlling the helper is well developed. The blind work is the proofing of the training in my mind. We often used a hidden sleeve so the dog was not focused on the sleeve. It take a skilled helper and handler to prevent injuries doing this. If the dog isn’t ready or doesn’t perform as required then he goes back to basic field work to build the drive to hold the helper. 

The rules change when the dog gets to the blind. He is challenging the helper directly. Sometimes he gets a bite and sometimes he gets recalled. This is the mental test for the dog. He is learning to control himself in high drive. It’s a very big event in the dogs training. From here things start falling into place, in my mind.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

There are multiple reasons not to give a sleeve bite in the blind, not all have to do with needing to work the dog in prey. It could be to maintain clarity in keeping the dog clean in the guarding by withholding the bite in the blind itself, it could be to maintain a more straight position in the blind, by manipulating reward placement, it could be to keep the dog from prey locking and to encourage better barking, among other things.

ETA: The whole pillow throwing this is also somewhat generalized being that the dog just "takes" it, as if the helper throws it and the dog will just leave the sleeve to go for it, when in fact, I have literally never seen this happen. It takes a TON of foundation to train a dog to be willing to take a lower value reward, which I would aim to guess that 99% of the time, it is. 

Timing and reward placement of bites in general are going to vary depending on the dog, so to make blanket statements about how anything "should" be trained would not truly be informative. I have dogs that I send for grips out of the back transport and dogs who are rewarded in place. I also have dogs who are given bites in the blind and dogs who take a pillow. There's a million ways to train any exercised, based on what you have in front of you and what you want the end goal to look like.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> ETA: The whole pillow throwing this is also somewhat generalized being that the dog just "takes" it, as if the helper throws it and the dog will just leave the sleeve to go for it, when in fact, I have literally never seen this happen. It takes a TON of foundation to train a dog to be willing to take a lower value reward, which I would aim to guess that 99% of the time, it is.


 The whole pillow throwing thing is something that is done early on in bite work. Part of foundation and drive building. My female never needed a pillow thrown. She is borderline too high prey as it is. She needs a little pressure to keep things somewhat real for her. Otherwise she will get prey locked and focus only on the equipment. 
And usually the pillow is not thrown for the dog to just bite from mid air. Occasionally it does happen but usually it's throw, throw, while your working yourself close enough to grab pillow then give a bite. The long line is then able to create distance allowing the helper to still be able to keep the prey alive or hold pressure to help the dogs grips. Again not all dogs need this part of the training. But if a young dog is geared more towards defense it is a way to keep the pressure at a minimum. 
Once on the sleeve the dog shouldn't need to have a pillow thrown. Unless you moved to a sleeve too fast.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Throwing the sleeve can help with targeting. Nothing is absolute in training. To say a dog would never see another thrown unless XXX was wrong is just not correct. I've had Vit Glisnik throw the sleeve out of the blind for a reward. We've worked targeting by throwing the pillow as my adult dog races towards the helper. 

The one thing I have learned is there is a boat load to still learn and to never speak in absolutes when it comes to training. Someone always has a trick that goes against the norm.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Throwing the sleeve can help with targeting. Nothing is absolute in training. To say a dog would never see another thrown unless XXX was wrong is just not correct. I've had Vit Glisnik throw the sleeve out of the blind for a reward. We've worked targeting by throwing the pillow as my adult dog races towards the helper.
> 
> The one thing I have learned is there is a boat load to still learn and to never speak in absolutes when it comes to training. Someone always has a trick that goes against the norm.


 I cannot hit a like button my phone app so. 
Like


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Thank you all!! I guess it's always good to have an open mind and don't be afraid to think "Out Of The Box"!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> The whole pillow throwing thing is something that is done early on in bite work. Part of foundation and drive building. My female never needed a pillow thrown. She is borderline too high prey as it is. She needs a little pressure to keep things somewhat real for her. Otherwise she will get prey locked and focus only on the equipment.
> And usually the pillow is not thrown for the dog to just bite from mid air. Occasionally it does happen but usually it's throw, throw, while your working yourself close enough to grab pillow then give a bite. The long line is then able to create distance allowing the helper to still be able to keep the prey alive or hold pressure to help the dogs grips. Again not all dogs need this part of the training. But if a young dog is geared more towards defense it is a way to keep the pressure at a minimum.
> Once on the sleeve the dog shouldn't need to have a pillow thrown. Unless you moved to a sleeve too fast.


Like Jax said, its definitely not an absolute when it comes to training. 

This is just one example...My female who didn't even learn to take a pillow until she was 2 years old. She has prey drive equivalent to most Malinois. I promise it has nothing to do with keeping pressure at a minimum. The first video is in early stages of the training, and the second moving closer to trial picture, and the third is at a regional championship trial.

http://www.facebook.com/alexis.brynolfsonroy/videos/vb.830440626/10156505703490627/?type=3


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > The whole pillow throwing thing is something that is done early on in bite work. Part of foundation and drive building. My female never needed a pillow thrown. She is borderline too high prey as it is. She needs a little pressure to keep things somewhat real for her. Otherwise she will get prey locked and focus only on the equipment.
> ...


 Nice looking female.


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