# Pedigree Analysis, Bloodlines, Well Known Dogs, Popular Sires.....



## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

I want to learn more about gsd pedigrees, bloodlines, or what certain dogs or kennels were known to produce be it confidence, social aggression, hyperactive, sharp, nervy, k-9s, sport dogs... I have gathered bits and pieces like 'x dog was a popular sire known for potential to produce nervy dogs but nice structure and drives potential for Igp when the nerves were there' I believe I am smart enough to take it all as experiences/opinions and not so much fact as generalization. I would be interested in any good books, literature, or anyone willing to give me a quick rundown of some key points they know.

Open discussion or pm me, I want to learn and will take what I can get.

For fun I would be interested in a brutal analysis of this byb pedigree- Scout M

Thanks!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You really have to know the dogs personally and be skilled enough to assess them or have second hand information from someone who has seen the dogs and is qualified to assess them to get the most accurate information. That is why you get so much conflicting info on the net.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Since most of the close-up dogs are BYB dogs, it's impossible to say anything meaningful about those dogs, BUT the top half of the pedigree has some of the best known German show line dogs, dogs that can actually work and not just look pretty. Ursus v. Batu was known to have good working ability, and passed it on to some of his descendants. But we're talking 5 generations back, so this influence would be minimal.

Anyone know what a VH2 rating means? Never seen that one before. REEHGE, are you familiar with the German rating system? A V rating is given to dogs considered to have excellent conformation, A VA rating is even higher, and can only be given at the annual Sieger show, with the VA1 rating going to the top dog of the year, the Sieger.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

VH – Vorhanden: Sufficient show or performance rating. 
Pronounced “a” is a rating of 3-4-5. These dogs will proceed to show in the ring 
Sufficient “vh” is a rating of 2. These dogs will not proceed to the stand and exam or ring 
Insufficient “ng’ is a rating of 1 or a “DQ”. These dogs will not proceed to the stand and exam or ring 

As for the pedigree of Scout M, the name itself tells me a lot. Going back 5 generations, you have a complete mix of West German Show Lines, BYB dogs, Czech Lines, West German Working Lines, unknown (probably more BYB dogs)...not really a pedigree for anything other than a pet. There is no rhyme or reason for the breeding throught the pedigree. Not anything a reputable breeder would be doing.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

REEHGE said:


> For fun I would be interested in a brutal analysis of this byb pedigree- Scout M


that's a very interesting ped! happy new year!! At first glance the maternal goes back fluss tal> kornersee. I'm pretty sure fluss tal had another kornersee grandson too, but this one by way of a better grandam. I'm pretty sure. I'll come back and edit as I go.

If I remember right, and I'm pretty sure I do, fluss tal was state police and bred horses. Used to run a criminal background check on anyone who wanted a pup. Googled and it looks like they're gone now? A lot of people don't think much of jerland, but I've seen a couple that were quite serviceable.

To me this is a really good example of a "gsd landrace" ped. More jerland further back. Of course plenty of token gsdca material and ALL the "usual suspects." But the stuff in the middle only get's lost along the way, so we're effectively looking at highline x "working type."

as for the no infos, they're all pedigreed. Guaranteed jerland's xanadu has papers all the way back to hecktor. As did queen amidala, and stumps, and woodhaven, by way of gsdca.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Since most of the close-up dogs are BYB dogs, it's impossible to say anything meaningful about those dogs, BUT the top half of the pedigree has some of the best known German show line dogs, dogs that can actually work and not just look pretty. Ursus v. Batu was known to have good working ability, and passed it on to some of his descendants. But we're talking 5 generations back, so this influence would be minimal.
> 
> Anyone know what a VH2 rating means? Never seen that one before. REEHGE, are you familiar with the German rating system? A V rating is given to dogs considered to have excellent conformation, A VA rating is even higher, and can only be given at the annual Sieger show, with the VA1 rating going to the top dog of the year, the Sieger.


Not very familiar with the different ratings, I only was aware the V and VA ratings were something to do with conformation, thanks!

I figured as much on unknown/bybs in the pedigree but still interests me to hear anything pops out at anyone 'in the know' anywhere in the pedigree even further back.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You really have to know the dogs personally and be skilled enough to assess them or have second hand information from someone who has seen the dogs and is qualified to assess them to get the most accurate information. That is why you get so much conflicting info on the net.


Your always so pessimistic Chip........or maybe just a realist haha


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

How else would you obtain useful information. On top of that you need good first or second info on how the dogs in the pedigree have produced and how with who.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

One thing that could help you is learning major names in pedigrees and working your way down through their progeny.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

But the major names mean top sport dogs and unless you have good info on the dog, you don’t how much of that dog’s success is training vs. genetics. It also depends on your goals for the dog. There have been some high level IGP dogs with genetic temperament issues that were masked through training. That is part of my issue with IGP


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> One thing that could help you is learning major names in pedigrees and working your way down through their progeny.


Could I get some major names, any known info associated with them?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

REEHGE said:


> Could I get some major names, any known info associated with them?


Fero, troll, yoshy, mink, Tom, Vito, Elute and falk are all good dogs to start with I’d say. Mostly west German.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> How else would you obtain useful information. On top of that you need good first or second info on how the dogs in the pedigree have produced and how with who.


Well understood  just looking for some GENERAL information/opinions(I take it all with a grain of salt) and I think you just might have some of this if your willing to cough it up. I've seen you mention a distaste for Anrebri before......


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Fero, troll, yoshy, mink, Tom, Vito, Elute and falk are all good dogs to start with I’d say. Mostly west German.


Nice, I've already been looking into a couple on this list because I know some dogs with this in their ped. Thanks!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Everyone always focuses on the sires. You need to take a good look at the dams too. Nike Eqidius, Jabina females, Leika vom dunklen Zwinger, Ombra vom Erlenbusch, Queen vom Revolutionskuppel and so on. The males don't do this alone 

For males - when you look at some of the top sport dogs today these are the names I see in the back. Champ vom Barenfang. Karn vom Fegelhof. Sid vom Haus Pixner. Gildo vom Korbelbach. Jaro Ja He. Dante Traho. Drago Eqidius. Tyson von der Schiffslache. So many dogs. You might be better picking one at a time to focus on.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It is very complicated IMO. I think most GSD people are more anal about pedigrees compared to working Mal breeders. BH mentioned Fero, Tom, and Mink. I see Fero and Tom as sport dogs and Mink a working dog. Fero and Mink go a good ways back so you have to look at the succession of who their progeny were bred to and what their progeny and others from them down the line produced. One dog in a pedigree 6 or 7 generations back is going to have very little genetic influence. Looking at the parents and knowing them and what they have produced will tell you the most.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

holey cats! there's even some panda back there! I never paid no attention 'cause I always assumed it was a hoax, but if these peds don't lie that panda come from backcrossing lance of franjo x "working" type?






Lindas Miss Missy Miss


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Lindas Miss Missy Miss




www.pedigreedatabase.com





I got your noteworthy panda analyses right here. It's called "*Need Breed Book Registration number"*






Lewcinka's Franka Von Phenom


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Lewcinka's Franka Von Phenom




www.pedigreedatabase.com





still looks a little hoaxy to me... I see swiss back there, somewhere... nothing wrong with a little swiss, just don't lie about it


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Everyone always focuses on the sires. You need to take a good look at the dams too. Nike Eqidius, Jabina females, Leika vom dunklen Zwinger, Ombra vom Erlenbusch, Queen vom Revolutionskuppel and so on. The males don't do this alone
> 
> For males - when you look at some of the top sport dogs today these are the names I see in the back. Champ vom Barenfang. Karn vom Fegelhof. Sid vom Haus Pixner. Gildo vom Korbelbach. Jaro Ja He. Dante Traho. Drago Eqidius. Tyson von der Schiffslache. So many dogs. You might be better picking one at a time to focus on.


THIS!
If anyone wants to research strong female lines, these are worth looking at: 
Ina vom Haus Gard, Umsa vom Bungalow, Connie vom Kornerplatz, Saskia vom Froschgraben, Happy vom Barenfang, Afra vom Stoppenberger Land


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

is this scout m?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think it’s usually easier to find info on the guys. They are also found in a lot more pedigrees than females. Great females are how you build a great breeding program though.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

more males get worked and titled, and in my experience the drives associated with work often come at the expense of good maternal traits; so "real good females" don't always make for real good dams.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> holey cats! there's even some panda back there! I never paid no attention 'cause I always assumed it was a hoax, but if these peds don't lie that panda come from backcrossing lance of franjo x "working" type?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Berno, Frankies story is well documented. She is 100% German Shepherd.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I surrender! you win!! I know better than to argue vs a Canadian anymore...

("_science, schmience," he muttered under his breath)_


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> holey cats! there's even some panda back there! I never paid no attention 'cause I al  ways assumed it was a hoax, but if these peds don't lie that panda come from backcrossing lance of franjo x "working" type?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


--I didn't even see that back there haha

--My profile pic isn't scout m


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

"diversity!"

v stephanitz book documents similar foundations so might could have just been a throwback? but I'd prefer it were a little swiss, because that would be far less anomalous...


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Tikkie said:


> THIS!
> If anyone wants to research strong female lines, these are worth looking at:
> Ina vom Haus Gard, Umsa vom Bungalow, Connie vom Kornerplatz, Saskia vom Froschgraben, Happy vom Barenfang, Afra vom Stoppenberger Land


Definitely interested in researching strong female lines! In my research thus far I have inadvertently been over-focused on the males since the 'hype' seems to always be centered on them. Thanks!


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> It is very complicated IMO. I think most GSD people are more anal about pedigrees compared to working Mal breeders. BH mentioned Fero, Tom, and Mink. I see Fero and Tom as sport dogs and Mink a working dog. Fero and Mink go a good ways back so you have to look at the succession of who their progeny were bred to and what their progeny and others from them down the line produced. One dog in a pedigree 6 or 7 generations back is going to have very little genetic influence. Looking at the parents and knowing them and what they have produced will tell you the most.


I am no expert, knowing even less about Mals than Gsd's but I would think you have no choice but to be much more anal on pedigrees, research, and all aspects when selecting a gsd since there is so much deviation from 'standard' in all directions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

REEHGE said:


> Definitely interested in researching strong female lines! In my research thus far I have inadvertently been over-focused on the males since the 'hype' seems to always be centered on them. Thanks!


Take a look at the Jabina and Eqidius breeding programs. If you look on the facebook IPO pages you'll find conversations on males quite often.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

REEHGE said:


> For fun I would be interested in a brutal analysis of this byb pedigree- Scout M


it occurs to me one may easily assert I've bred to less myself 

my brutal analyses are there's a best in every litter


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

REEHGE,
My interest is in non FCI KNPV Mals and their public pedigrees are often false/inaccurate. They have outcrossed to other breeds in the past. Structure has variation such as 65#_100+# males. Temperament tends to be more consistent. People I know who are into breeding these dogs have told me about nerve bag bitches who are great producers. Appearance is irrelevant, there are no breed surveys or registration papers, and there is a much lower incidence of HD. They try to breed largely based on the parents and if the pups suck, they will cull an entire litter. It is a very different mindset but yields good results. Same for the KNPV program. No discussion forums like this for KNPV dogs and their training tends to be very harsh, which washes all but the most resilient dogs. Likely to see some of that change as several KNPV clubs have recently been shut down due to their training practices. I think the GSD market is a very different market.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> more males get worked and titled, and in my experience the drives associated with work often come at the expense of good maternal traits; so "real good females" don't always make for real good dams.


Female breeding stock is less titled because of the time and cost. By the time a female is fully titled, they have already lost a year of breeding. If a breeder wants to breed young and retire a dog after a number of litters, it doesn’t make sense. Also, the breeder may not be a handler, so would have to pay someone to title their dogs. So what they might do is title a very similar female sibling or sell to someone who will so they know what the dog is capable of doing. I know some will, disagree with me, which is fine. I learned from the breeders I know, which are a limited number.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

IPO training is not a walk in the park either. Once you get to the top it takes dogs that can withold an immense amount of pressure to succeed at the level of precision that is being requested.
People usually don’t get to see the bad and the ugly because if AR nutjobs in Europe etc. 

That being said, sometimes it is truly sickening whats done to dogs. I get its necessary to weed out the weak ones but there has to be a better way. We have to find a better way other than blatant abuse (thats basically what it boils down to) to stroke our own egos.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Look at it as what is involved in becoming a Navy Seal. Is that sickening abuse or a severe test of resilience. The only difference is that the dogs don’t volunteer for the challenges.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

The difference between someone to become a Navy Seal is that a person has a choice! Nobody is forcing anyone to become a Seal. Dogs do not have a choice in the matter.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

I guess there may be a fine line between abuse and testing/training among different methods but I don't particularly see it as abusive if the dog can handle the adversity and perhaps even thrive through it. I can't imagine anyone should/would try to keep pushing a dog who can't handle it, I would certainly see that as abusive not to mention counterproductive for dog and handler.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Tikkie,
I already made that point. I don’t think the majority are concerned how animals are raised and slaughtered as long as the grocery stores have plenty of meat, including what is fed to dogs on a raw diet.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

REEHGE,
They wash the dog as soon as they see a weakness. That is what keeps the gene pool strong. Look at all the questions asked on this forum about temperament issues with GSDs.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

REEHGE said:


> I've seen you mention a distaste for Anrebri before......


Here's what I was told about Frankie Anrebri by a guy who has more experience with these dogs than just about anyone else I know. I was searching for a stud to mate with my female, who has some Anrebri line breeding, but she herself loves everyone she meets.

He said: You don’t need suspicion because your female is atypical of good suspicion by genetics. She will pass that. I know what Frankie produces as I have seen over 50 pups out of Frankie son and 4 different females. When I mixed Frankie with Xero z PS, I did not get good hip history, but excellent suspicion.

Unfortunately, my female was never able to pregnant. She had pyo when she was 18 months old, and it probably made her sterile. 😢


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

REEHGE said:


> I guess there may be a fine line between abuse and testing/training among different methods but I don't particularly see it as abusive if the dog can handle the adversity and perhaps even thrive through it. I can't imagine anyone should/would try to keep pushing a dog who can't handle it, I would certainly see that as abusive not to mention counterproductive for dog and handler.


I am not talking about the trial. I am talking about how you get there and the training to get there.


Chip Blasiole said:


> REEHGE,
> They wash the dog as soon as they see a weakness. That is what keeps the gene pool strong. Look at all the questions asked on this forum about temperament issues with GSDs.


You seriously believe there are no weak dogs in KNPV? Or Malinois? 😂


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Of course there are and they quickly get washed and handler’s don’t try multiple ways to get a dog through something he is struggling with. They typically compulse the dog into the behavior or he is washed. How did you come up with that?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What does any of this have to do with German Shepherd pedigrees? Just another thread hi-jacked for personal bias.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Tikkie said:


> The difference between someone to become a Navy Seal is that a person has a choice! Nobody is forcing anyone to become a Seal.


great analogy! The truth is you can't force anyone. They must have the drive within themselves to complete the training. I can't speak for knpv, but in my own observation, the same applies to dogs. Either a dog wants to, or it don't.

I'm a little out of my element because I'm strictly a "grab and hold the arm" guy, but it seems like the best dogs I've worked are more like athletes than hired killers. They grab, they hold, they take the pressure, all for the love of the game.

Speaking for myself, more aggressive dogs are less useful because they require so much containment; but to each his own...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Bearshandler said:


> *Fero, troll, yoshy, mink,* Tom, Vito, Elute and falk are all good dogs to start with I’d say. Mostly west German.


Cava has the first 4 dogs in her lineage. I don't know squat about pedigrees, I've seen those names discussed many times over the years but don't recall if they're generally considered positive or negative. 

I asked for some input here about what to expect a long time ago, a couple weeks before we brought her home. I'd forgotten about that thread and reading this one reminded me. I went back and found it and it's interesting how most of the comments are nothing like her.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Cava has the first 4 dogs in her lineage. I don't know squat about pedigrees, I've seen those names discussed many times over the years but don't recall if they're generally considered positive or negative.
> 
> I asked for some input here about what to expect a long time ago, a couple weeks before we brought her home. I'd forgotten about that thread and reading this one reminded me. I went back and found it and it's interesting how most of the comments are nothing like her.


Fero has become almost omnipresent in working lines. Aside from the pure ddr dogs almost every one of them has him. Troll and his brother Timmy are his most used sons, so they are extremely common too. What you get from Fero would depend on what dogs he comes through. In general, higher amounts of troll and fero lead to higher prey drive. Yoschy was a highly used son of troll, so those three basically follow a line. Mink is another highly used dog in wgwl. He can produce harder dogs with more aggression. Those dogs are far enough back that there’s probably more relevant information on dogs closer in a pedigree to give you a better picture. A conversation about those 4 dogs probably had to do with back massing, how they were used to much, and how a lot of breeders try to avoid them.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Berno,
What if you have an extreme prey drive dog with super high possessiveness and he doesn’t want to out?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I like the ones who want to out so we can do it again. Sometimes in the beginning a handler has to _make them want to out _ and either they catch on quick, or they don't. I rely so heavily and so early on the reizangel that obedience is quite solid by the time a pup's mouth is big enough to grip a bitearm.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don’t think you understand extreme possessiveness.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

I've seen a fair amount of Busecker Schloss pop up in pedigrees and discussions, apparently some noteworthy dogs/lines there?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

There are some past threads about some of them...









The Breed Standard


The "Breed Standard," includes appearance and temperament. Discussion here.




www.germanshepherds.com













V Sagus vom Busecker Schloß


What is this dog known for? What does he bring to a pedigree. I was told by someone that I respect that he is not desirable in a pedigree but this person did not elaborate. So I am throwing it out there for discussion. If you have an opinion or knowledge (good or bad) I would love to learn...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don’t think you understand extreme possessiveness.


apparently not? I assume prey and possession are what motivates a young pup to chase and bite a lure, and that's really the whole foundation of my training. A pups soon learns if you want to chase and bite, you have to sit when I say sit, and you have to out when I say out. Because if you don't do exactly what I say, exactly when I say it, the game comes to a screeching halt and we have to start all over again.
The good ones catch on real quick that it's just a lot more fun to do as I say. I let them win everytime, but I don't allow much possession. Just enough to motivate them in the very beginning. Soon thereafter the kind I like just naturally learn to prefer praise over posses?I guess? 
I've seen a couple over the years that didn't respond accordingly. Seemed like they just _didn't want to_ work for me under those conditions, unless or until some other pup was attempting to "posses." I didn't waste much time on them.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

That is adding too much control before building prey drive.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm not arguing. You're probably right? No question you know more about it than me. I'd always assumed as long as they progressively continue to chase and bite, prey is building?

I'm trying to imagine how a possessive dog with an iffy out applies to livestock? In my mind that doesn't end well. But maybe possessive doesn't mean what I think it means? For that matter maybe prey doesn't mean what I think it means?

Maybe it all boils down to ball drive? Either a dog is smart enough to know he needs to bring me the ball so he can chase it again, or it ain't? So is that prey drive? or genetic obedience? both? balance? I'm probably the most crude, uneducated, uninitiated "trainer" (_if I may even use the term that loosely?_) to ever haunt the halls of this forum.

anyways I posted some fun little "panda" type video and the mods moved them to* here*


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