# Who has the most training experience?



## J and J M (Sep 20, 2013)

There are a lot of differences of opinion on this forum between trainers. I was hoping some people wouldn't mind listing the amount of time they have been training for sport or pp and a list of titles and how many titles. Breeders also welcome, what have your dogs achieved? How long have you been breeding.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You are very trusting


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ugh! We've lost so many experienced people! I really miss Fast. He cracked me up

Slamdunc 
lhczth
Cliff
Vandal
Steve Strom
Leesa 

Those are a few of the ones I know have worked dogs, many of them for decades, and have a lot of knowledge.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Jax08,
Thanks! 

I am honored that you would include me in a list with such Knowledgeable people. I would add your name to the list as well. 

There are quite a few very knowledgeable people here, some excellent breeders and very experienced working dog folks.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Not me! lol This is only my first working dog. I'm still blissfully ignorant of all I do wrong!


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## J and J M (Sep 20, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Not me! lol This is only my first working dog. I'm still blissfully ignorant of all I do wrong!


That statement earns some respect from me. To many people on here talk as though they have a life time of experience but when you look at their past posts or threads started and questions asked they have only been training for 2 or 3 years. Sometimes it's important to know what you don't know.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

We've had GSDs since 1986, but until fairly recently, my experience consisted of training our own pet dogs. Sneaker was super easy, she hardly counts in terms of training experience since we only took one obedience class with her and that was actually enough. She lived to 14-1/2 years old. 

By the time we got Cassidy in 2000, I had pretty much forgotten the little I'd learned about dog training from when Sneaker was a puppy. She was, um.... NOT easy. :help: Cassidy had a whole host of temperament issues, including being severely leash reactive, and ended up being my crash course in dog training. I took numerous OB classes with her. 

We lost her to a painful spinal disease at 4 years old and got Dena about a month later at 9 weeks old. She was the youngest puppy we'd had, Sneaker was 16 weeks old when we got her and Cassidy was 20 weeks. I set out teaching Dena everything I'd learned in all the classes I'd taken with Cassidy, and she was a fantastic dog. Because she was so great, we jumped at the chance to get her half sibling Keefer, when she was just over a year old. I ultimately wanted two dogs although I hadn't had any intention of them being so close in age. But by then she was practically perfect, so I felt like I could suspend her training for awhile to focus on him. He was also 9 weeks old when he came home. I did all the same foundation work with him that I had done when Dena was a pup. I had started agility classes with her shortly before we got Keef, and after a couple of classes with him, I went back and took did some more agility classes with her, but it was just for fun. We never came close to entering a trial. 

Sadly, we also lost Dena young, she died of lymphoma when she was four years old. By then, Keefer was three, which was more along the lines of the age spacing I had originally intended. Sneaker and Cassidy were American lines, and Dena & Keefer are West German show lines. 

It was tough losing two dogs so young, and we were not planning to start looking for a puppy for a few months. But then Halo's breeder posted pictures here, and some of the board members back then knew the breeder and trained with her. They had met Halo and thought she would be perfect for us, and encouraged us to contact the breeder. We had never had a working line dog before, so we weren't sure. We were also not sure about shipping a puppy all the way across the country that we'd never met, from a breeder that we'd never met. But in the end we decided we wanted her, and she was on a non-stop flight from the East coast to San Francisco a few days later. This was January 2009. 

To be honest, I was a little nervous about having a working line puppy, so I basically started immediately and trained the crap out of her, lol! She was 10 weeks old when we got her, I worked with her at home for 3 weeks, and then we went through a variety of classes pretty much back to back until she was around a year old. She excelled, and was the star of her classes. 

Finally, I decided I had enough basic obedience on her and it was time to try something fun, like agility or flyball. Agility classes are easy to find, but not flyball, so when I discovered a class not too far away at a convenient day and time, I signed her up. She. Loved. It.  So, I looked for a more advanced class, and found one taught by a local flyball club. Eight and a half months later, she debuted at her first flyball tournament. That tournament was exactly four years ago tomorrow. Halo is currently ranked as the #26 GSD in the North American Flyball Association, out of a total of 340 GSDs that have been registered with the organization. She ran her fastest time a couple of weeks before her 6th birthday, and will get her Onyx award (20,000 total points) at her next tournament. She could be in the top 20 of her breed by the end of the year. Pretty proud of my girl. :wub:


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I think there are some here with shorter training careers than those mentioned above, but still have a wealth of knowledge. Baillif and Mycobraracer come to mind, there's more but my brain is tired, lol


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Nigel said:


> I think there are some here with shorter training careers than those mentioned above, but still have a wealth of knowledge. Baillif and Mycobraracer come to mind, there's more but my brain is tired, lol


Yes good call, my thoughts exactly! It would be hard to remember all the knowledgeable and list them. I'm sure I would forget some.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

This forum is full of really good people and info, for the most part. I personally know of a handful people on here that are very experienced with training GSD's and have many years experience; Wolfstraum and Leesa have really helped me out a lot and are as experienced as it gets when it comes to GSDs. This should make for an interesting thread


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Well, the title of there thread could be tweaked a little. I might suggest, "what experience do you have?" "Or what dogs have you titled?" Or how about "Tell us a little about your experience? Dogs that you have trained, dogs that you have titled,etc." I'm not sure we can quantify who the most experienced is. I know some folks that have been selling and training dogs for 40 years that still get it wrong.  I know some folks that started and learned and made the WUSV team with HOT (handler owner trained dogs) in a relatively short time. 

Ok, I'll bite and give a brief resume.

I have been interested in dogs all my life, from a child. My goal as a kid was to pet every dog that I saw. The more the dogs growled, barked or became aggressive, the more I was determined to pet them. Similar to George Costanza, I must be liked. Well, I got bit a lot. Then, as I kid, I started reading body language and reading behavior. It helped with not getting bit as much. I've had dogs all my life, my first GSD in 1984, an ASL. In 94' I got a WGSL puppy, Zeus vom Mimosenweg aka "Herman." I got into Schutzhund, now IPO. That dog was aggressive, sharp and handler aggressive. I raised him from a pup and titled him to a SchH 3. I handled and showed him at several conformation shows, including regional shows where he was V rated. This was back in time when SL dogs had drive, aggression and worked. The sharpness of that dog caused me to be a better handler and learn. I made a lot of mistakes and vowed to do better with my next dog. I was fortunate to train with some excellent IPO people and many K-9 guys. I saw the differences in patrol and IPO dogs, met K-9 guys from Germany and saw how sport work could benefit training. I was exposed to seminars with some world level handlers and trainers and soaked up everything I could. Like biscuits and gravy. I got another GSD in '99, Annabelle von Einschuh and trained and titled her from a pup to a SchH 3, IPO 2. In the meantime I handled SL dogs in regional and National Sieger SHows for breeders. I adapted my training methods with Annabelle, much to her benefit. I also had a White GSD that I rescued. I spent a lot of time assisting with GSD rescue and evaluating dogs for them. I became a cop and got into K-9 myself. I am now the K-9 trainer for my unit and a certified trainer with the VPWDA. I got my current K-9, Boomer as a pup and was working him in IPO. Boomer would have been a National Level IPO dog, not my statement, but agreement from some of the top trainers that we have worked with. I had Boomer doing a full IPO 1 routine at a year old and put a BH on him. I then decided to use him as my Dual Purpose Patrol / Narcotics K-9. I transitioned Boomer from IPO training to Patrol and street work. Boomer has been an exceptional Patrol dog. I hold the record for having the fastest "real" street bite after coming out of the K-9 school. Boomer tracked and apprehended a subject wanted for rape two days before he hit the street for his first patrol shift. A great start to his career, and he has had quite a career. That dog has made me look good everyday on the street. Boomer has earned lots of awards, newspaper articles and accolades. I simply drive him to the spot and hold the leash. Easy day. I have also worked Boomer on the SWAT team for several years. 

My job now, aside from my patrol and narcotics work is the unit K-9 trainer for my Dept and our Sheriffs Dept. I have implemented and manage an in house K-9 training program for out new handlers and dogs. I run a 4 month school for detection and Patrol K-9's, each year. 

I have been very fortunate that in my dual IPO and K-9 work, I get to meet and train with top handlers form around the world. I will bring trainers in from Germany, Holland and the US to train in IPO and K-9 training. 

I ma currently training a young female GSD, Francesca. She is imprinted on Narcotics and ready to certify as a Narcotics K-9. She is also in training for IPO and will be titled. An excellent tracking dog, super bite work for IPO, and OB is coming along. Her OB is lacking only because I am lazy and would rather hang out with this super nice and cute GSD then do OB. 

Boomer turned 10 years old on 3/14 and will be retiring in the upcoming months. I am currently training a new Patrol dog, Boru. Boru is a 3 1/2 year old Belgian Malinois X Dutch Sheperd, I started training him in February. An awesome dog that will make any cop feel safe knowing he is on scene. Boru is not the easiest dog and already has 5 real bites in training. Four before I got him, with a SF team, and that is why a dog of his caliber was available to me. The 5th was a buddy of mine who took him for a walk while I was on vacation. This dog is no joke and needed an experienced handler. Never wanting to back down from a challenge I took him. 
I really like this dog and have worked to develop trust and a bond. The dog is super affectionate with me and we get along great. Things are going well, right now I'm super stoked with this dog. 

In addition to the dogs that I have raised and trained, I've been decoying in SchH and IPO since the mid 90's. I've been a certified decoy in both the WDA and USA. I'm a member of USA'a SchH 3 club. I've done the decoy work on many dogs from pups to IPO 3. I've worked a few IPO dogs over the years and have done Decoy work at many trials, including one National Trial. It was a Bouvier national, not sure that counts.  But, Bouviers can be very serious dogs. A Bouvier may be fluffy, but they are no joke. I currently work a variety of Police dogs every week and still do IPO and decoy every week. 

By far I am not the most experienced poster on here. I think the IPO experience that I have and the world class trainers that I have met have taught me a tremendous amount. Taking that experience and adding it to my K-9 training experience has given me a unique perspective. This is just what I do, because I love working dogs. Now, when I get bit I usually have equipment, as opposed to when I was a kid. I'm a little smarter and no longer feel the need to pet every aggressive dog that I meet.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Slamdunc said:


> Well, the title of there thread could be tweaked a little. I might suggest, "what experience do you have?" "Or what dogs have you titled?" Or how about "Tell us a little about your experience? Dogs that you have trained, dogs that you have titled,etc." I'm not sure we can quantify who the most experienced is. I know some folks that have been selling and training dogs for 40 years that still get it wrong.  I know some folks that started and learned and made the WUSV team with HOT (handler owner trained dogs) in a relatively short time.


:thumbup: I agree. I've had GSDs for a long time - in August it will be 30 years. But my accomplishments with our dogs pale in comparison to so many others. Really, my focus has been on well behaved companion dogs up until Halo, and I've only gone beyond that because she is so amazing that to have not gone on to compete in a sport would have been a travesty. But still, the best sport dog is nothing compared to REAL working dogs.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I think sport dogs and training and competing is awesome. it takes a tremendous amount of hard work, time and dedication. I am always impressed with people that dog any sport with their dogs. I am bringing an agility person out to our K-9 training to show our guys how an obstacle course should be run. 

I firmly believe in working with sport people, SAR and other specialty venues to learn how they do things. We are all working dogs, and I can learn from anyone that works a dog in sport. Obedience is critical to LE dogs, agility is super important as well and SAR folks generally track better than LE guys. I have learned and stolen many techniques from various dog training venues. 

Don't ever sell your sport work short, I think it is awesome!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Quantity and quality are two different things and when it comes to training I would say quality would be more important.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Got my first GSD in 1985. Started training in SAR in 2003 but in a new team and struggling to find out way figure things out. Don't really feel like things started clicking solidly until 2008. I will agree with the statement quantity is not quality. For some this comes fast and easy and for others not so much. I will say though that so much of the pain we felt in the early years helped newer folks come up with a straighter path to success.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I just wanted to chime in and say Jim (slamdunc), I admire your humility, you have an impressive amount of experience. Thanks for sharing


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

We have some young up and coming trainers on the forum.

In addition to "Mr. Tell it like it is" Bailiff.  

Blitz is walking the walk!! 

Gator dog, Alexis is a rising star in the IPO world, went to the national level last year with her Carma. All girl team! 

Great idea for a thread btw!

Me. I'm just a newbie learning how hard this IPO stuff is!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A great thread and should have a designated area on the forum for all people to see.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

J and J M said:


> There are a lot of differences of opinion on this forum between trainers. I was hoping some people wouldn't mind listing the amount of time they have been training for sport or pp and a list of titles and how many titles. Breeders also welcome, what have your dogs achieved? How long have you been breeding.


I just like talking about dogs J&J. I don't have any kind of credentials or special knowledge or skills. I am lucky to be in an area where there are a lot of really good people in just about every formal venue, so I've made some good friends over the years through dog stuff. 

I wouldn't discount anything anyone posts, just because they haven't done something in a formal setting. Everything with dog training is experience, I agree with that line of thinking, but everyone who's taught their dog to walk on a leash has learned something that can be passed on. When it comes to biting, I think there can be some bad advice here and there and its something that has to be taken very seriously, but for the most part things tend to be an ongoing conversation and you end up with options to consider.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

J and J M said:


> There are a lot of differences of opinion on this forum between trainers.



The only thing two trainers can agree on, is that the third trainer is doing it wrong


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

mycobraracr said:


> The only thing two trainers can agree on, is that the third trainer is doing it wrong



So true. :rofl:


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Before GSD's, I had a couple of goldens as a kid, and a Newfoundland as a teenager. I did agility with my newfie and she actually wasn't bad LOL I also put some Rally titles on her - this was when the sport was brand new.

I got my first GSD in 2001, she was WGWL. I wanted to breed, do Schh, etc but her temperament wasn't the best. She was sharp and very soft. So I dabbled in agility and herding with her, nothing too exciting. She made it to 13.5 years old with very few health issues. 

I got Djenga about 2 years later with the same goal, I purchased her when we were living in Germany. Unfortunately she was diagnosed with HD at 8 months old, so she was never bred. But I did work her in Schh, she got her BH and I also put some Rally titles on her. She had the temperament to title in Schh, but I didn't want to wreck her hips so I stopped there. She's now 12.5 years old and is still doing well.

About a year after I got Djenga, I got Madina (as an adult, also in Germany). She was supposed to have been trained to Schh1 and I took the seller's word for it. Big mistake, she barely knew how to sit. She got her BH and AD but was too soft and didn't have enough drive for real bitework. She also passed away at about 13, she was also very healthy up until the end, aside from some allergy issues.

Next was Kessy, who I purchased as a puppy on our 2nd tour in Germany. I did Schh with her, titling her to Schh1 and OB2. I also did lots of Rally with her, a TT, etc. We did herding for about 4-5 years and she was 2xHGH with scores of 88 and 90 (V). I also showed her in conformation shows several times and she was koerklassed. I did try to breed her but unfortunately she was never able to conceive...which was really heartbreaking  She's over 10 years old now, and has been in renal failure for 2.5 years but you'd never really know it. She was very sick at the time of her 2nd HGH, and I was sure I was going to lose her. I know she may not have a "normal" lifespan but she's doing well on prescription food and supplements, and I am thankful for every day. 

While training with Kessy, I worked for our Schh trainer and would train his sale dogs. Some I would train in the kennel (as many as a dozen at a time), others I took home with me to get used to home environments. I definitely learned a lot, it really helped me learn how to adjust my training style for an individual dog's temperament. Some were tough and nasty, others soft, and most were somewhere in between. Several went on to be highly titled but of course I didn't get credit for the training LOL But that's ok, I understood that going into it and it was a great learning experience.

Kira came to me as a puppy, and I also titled her in HGH after training for about 18 months. Unfortunately I just don't have time to train seriously, so I haven't done too much else with her. We did do a few sessions of bitework when she was young and she did really nicely, and I did a fair amount of obedience with her. She had her first litter last year (my first GSD litter) and the puppies are all super.

In between GSD's, I started getting into JRT's. My first was in 2006. I now have 3...I've mainly done Rally with them but they also dabble in other sports (GTG, conformation lure coursing, racing, barn hunt, etc). My 2 adults have been nationally ranked in WCR Rally. My youngest is just a pup but she got her Rally Puppy title and will have her first terrier show/trial this weekend. I am trying to squeeze in a couple of trials while she's still a puppy, to give her some experience before competing against adults. I bred her myself and I just adore her. 

I've had to scale back on dog stuff since I went back to school, but I'll finally be graduating in May. I can't wait to have free time again!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> The only thing two trainers can agree on, is that the third trainer is doing it wrong




One thing I should add. Even though it seems like a lot of us don't agree, we still for the most part respect one another and accomplishments. I consider a lot of these people friends even though if all you ever read was stuff on here you'd think we hate one another. Some of us just have very different goals for our end product. That makes training styles different. Not that one is better than the other. I like getting into debates and even some heated discussions on here. I feel that it helps us grow. As long as we can stay open minded to it all. I'm a mechanic, I have a tool box full of tools. On a daily basis I really only use a handful of them. So why do I have so many? For that one job that requires something a little different. A different angle, shape or size. That's what we take away from these discussions. We may not always agree, but we may say something that will help each other get through a problem down the road.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

IMHO, anyone seeking advice or reading threads regarding training on the internet should keep in mind that the person on the other keyboard can call themselves a trainer, but may not be all that.....

My personal litmus test is A) Has this person at least titled their dog(s) in some sports (a CGC doesn't count nor does being a "ABC" graduate in my book). B) Does this person have a track record of training other dogs and their owners. C) Has this trainer helped others title their dog in dog sport.**

Even if a dog owner isn't interested in going into any dog sports these bonafides help demonstrate the trainer is capable of training dogs to a consistent level as required by the sport and can translate that experience to other people and their dogs as well.

There are people who are excellent animal trainers but have a hard time passing the knowledge on to others.

I was put on the wrong path for many years by trainers who didn't meet these basic standards. When I found trainers that do, things really turned around for me.

For GSDs I like to add another pre-requisite, GSD experience and thus far I've had the best outcomes with bite sport experienced trainers, even when I was just looking for basic OB.

(**btw some popular TV trainers don't meet this criteria.....)


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

In 1983 I started training in AKC obedience with my family's male Dobe. My sister had taken two classes with him, hated it, so I took over. I had also been training my own horses since the mid 70's so I think getting involved with dogs was natural. I titled him in obedience and then managed to talk my father into allowing me to have my first GSD. That was 1985. I titled her in obedience then found SchH in January of 1992, did her BH and attempted an FH. We also did her TD and even tried some herding. I have pretty much only done SchH since then though I did put a CD on Treue, my first titled schutzhund. 

I have titled 3 dogs in AKC obedience, 5 dogs in SchH/IPO from puppies currently working my 6 and 7th all HOT except for Donovan who I didn't own for 6 months so won't claim as HOT. I am a 3X member of the USCA SchH3/IPO3 club, have a USCA gold sports medal and, except for my first two dogs (Nike and Treue) all the rest have been bred by me. I have done conformation ratings on two dogs, several AD, Deja is KKL and I have done an FH1 and FH2 (both with V scores). I have also participated in 2 regionals. I also have taught classes, mostly assisting PK classes for many many years and am a CGC evaluator. Have done suit work, PP, and would still love to do muzzle work with Deja, but no one will take me up on that. LOL 

As far as breeding; I have always wanted to breed, but didn't feel I was ready with my first GSD Tara and then didn't find a dog I felt was special enough until I got Nike in 2000. I have had 8 litter, 2 from Nike; 3 from her daughter, Vala; 3 from Vala's daughters, Elena and Deja. I am currently working Nike's great grandkids. My program has produced dogs titled or working in SchH/IPO, PSA, FH, tracking, nose work, detection, SAR, a service dog, agility, obedience, dock diving, and a few "only pets". 

I am currently the MER regional breed warden and on the USCA auditing committee. I have considered becoming a USCA judge, but travel is difficult for me. 

I have been very lucky to train with many "old timers", police handlers and a number of WUSV competitors both in the USA and in Germany, people who freely gave of their knowledge. 

Is that enough "bragging"? LOL


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm feeling so inadequate, LOL!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I'm feeling so inadequate, LOL!


You can borrow my line. Just repeat after me...

...I'm still blissfully ignorant of all I do wrong!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Well. Geez, so many good trainers on this site. 

Me, let's see. 

Got my first GSD and got her BH, then moved to SAR. Certified her as a wilderness live fine dog, and then recertified her. 

Then certified another wilderness live find, and recertified him. 

Now have a FEMA USAR dog, cert and recery(due for 3rd recert Jan 2017) 

In all of these have helped multiple other handlers train, as they helped me, their dogs. 

Have rehabbed and rehomed more foster dogs than I can count. With many differing problems, from scary aggression, to fear, to separation anxiety, to poor socialization. 

Horrifically, and in hind sight, hilariously failed recent attempt at BH with my current young male. Will try again. 

I know this isn't part of the asking, but been a vet tech for 20 years. So loads of experience dealing with stressed animals. And working with owners through behavior issues, or I should say, preventing behavioral issues. 

Not a lot of "titles" but lots of experience and work with dogs.

I am well aware of my limitations, and you will never see me tell or give advice to people in regards to titling.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jax08 said:


> You can borrow my line. Just repeat after me...
> 
> ...I'm still blissfully ignorant of all I do wrong!



30 plus years and I am still learning.  The more I know the more I realize I still have to learn.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Same here. But it's getting easier.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lhczth said:


> The more I know the more I realize I still have to learn.


That is SO true!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That is SO true!


I'd say I disagree, but I'm not a trainer so it doesn't matter anyway.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

J and J M said:


> There are a lot of differences of opinion on this forum between trainers. I was hoping some people wouldn't mind listing the amount of time they have been training for sport or pp and a list of titles and how many titles. Breeders also welcome, what have your dogs achieved? How long have you been breeding.


I'm kind of curious as to where you fit into the spectrum of experience.

I'm a 3 time companion GSD owner....however my current GSD is what I like to call a "backyard performance" dog. I've learned a ton from many of the people who have responded to this thread.


SuperG


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Me neither which is why I pretty much stay out of "my dog bit the neighbor" threads except to say "go find a good trainer". I only go on the occasional rant against purely positive put 'em down if you can't fix them with cookies kind of training.

I would call you a well informed, experienced handler/owner trainer (HOT!) dogs though.  

Which puts me somewhere between "wut?" and "oh, I see, I think" on the spectrum.... 




Steve Strom said:


> I'd say I disagree, but *I'm not a trainer* so it doesn't matter anyway.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> I'd say I disagree, but I'm not a trainer so it doesn't matter anyway.


Bet you've been waiting all day to use this! LOL!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Most old school trainers that I know, are choosing new methods for training. It is good to see their minds open enough to change. Instead of the 'you must' and 'factory work' style of training, they are learning about 'engagement and enthusiasm', with some 'you must' thrown in to balance the enthusiasm.
I saw this article today and thought it is worth sharing here: Dog Training Legend Is Worried


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Most old school trainers that I know, are choosing new methods for training. It is good to see their minds open enough to change. Instead of the 'you must' and 'factory work' style of training, they are learning about 'engagement and enthusiasm', with some 'you must' thrown in to balance the enthusiasm.
> I saw this article today and thought it is worth sharing here: Dog Training Legend Is Worried


That article is a crock of nonsense..lol...sounds like its a good thing he is retiring.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> That article is a crock of nonsense..lol...sounds like its a good thing he is retiring.


He was referring to the marketing of Cesar and all his followers. And the like minded that think they are the dog whisperer of their community. I have seen it first hand when Karlo was a pup, I took him to a puppy class and the trainer alpha rolled an older poodle for correcting a puppy that got into his face and had no clue about dog manners. Instead of pulling the puppy away, the trainer rolled the poodle for giving a fair correction. The trainer didn't even see the poodle was teaching the pup to leave it.

I don't want to take this thread off the rail, but I've that people will follow certain pet trainers without understanding what is going on, take their word and then they have a dog with no confidence that another trainer has to 'fix'. This is PET trainers mostly, not sport dog trainers that have a large toolbox and know how to use their tools. I don't totally agree with him, but think it is worth sharing his opinion on the way training is changing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

As long as people don't have their heads stuck in the sand, more experience should net a better trainer. Unfortunately, many people do have their heads stuck smack in the sand, so more experience just means they are really good and piss-poor training.

I am sick of training philosophies. I am sick of people equating positive training with "shove a cookie at the dog" and balanced training just means put a prong collar on the dog and shove a cookie at the dog too. It's irritating and frustrating, and I probably should just head off to bed because this isn't helpful.

A lot of the best trainers started with yank and crank because that was what was popular when they were first learning, and now they use a lot of different techniques that gets them better results and are poo-poo'd by the "experts." None of them call themselves purely positive or positive only.

The thing is, one dog doesn't make you an expert, even with a ton of research and watching hundreds of videos. No shortcuts. You have to get out there and work with lots of dogs to be an expert, and you have to be open enough to have a diverse tool box of techniques. Because dogs are different. You have to listen to a lot of people and decide what makes sense for you and the dog in front of you, and you got to make mistakes and learn from them. 

Ya got to get a skinned knee or you aren't going to learn to ride the bike. Some things you can't learn from a book or video.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> I have seen it first hand when Karlo was a pup, I took him to a puppy class and the trainer alpha rolled an older poodle for correcting a puppy that got into his face and had no clue about dog manners. Instead of pulling the puppy away, the trainer rolled the poodle for giving a fair correction. The trainer didn't even see the poodle was teaching the pup to leave it.


I have a story related to this. I took the Sirius Puppy classes with Dena, Keefer, and Halo that Ian Dunbar founded. In Halo's Puppy 2 class, there was a larger puppy that was not very well behaved (maybe a doodle or something?), with an older woman owner who seemed fairly clueless and not very able to control her dog. 

Each night we showed up to class I set up on the opposite side of the room, to keep Halo as far away from this dog as possible. In spite of my efforts, one time he ended up close enough to hump her, and he did. Halo immediately told the dog off. I was upset because I hadn't intervened quickly enough to prevent the dog from getting that close to her. The instructor assumed I was mad at Halo, which I was not! Her comment to me? "That was a perfectly appropriate reaction".  It was, and I thought it was terrific of her to recognize that and say so.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> That article is a crock of nonsense..lol...sounds like its a good thing he is retiring.


Yeah no kidding.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So much talent and experience here. I wish I could get half the results.

Not a trainer, not a breeder, don't know anything.
I run a recycling center for those disposable dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> So much talent and experience here. I wish I could get half the results.
> 
> Not a trainer, not a breeder, don't know anything.
> I run a recycling center for those disposable dogs.


so do you refer some of these dogs to trainers before recycling them? Obviously they do need some evaluation....
I think knowing how to read behavior is key in training. Dogs with 'issues' teach us so much and get us out of our box to learn more. Working with the disposable dogs is huge because you never know what you are getting, peeling off the layers and learning about the temperament. But then some dogs are so shut down that they don't reveal their true personality until many weeks of foster care.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> so do you refer some of these dogs to trainers before recycling them? Obviously they do need some evaluation....
> I think knowing how to read behavior is key in training. Dogs with 'issues' teach us so much and get us out of our box to learn more. Working with the disposable dogs is huge because you never know what you are getting, peeling off the layers and learning about the temperament. But then some dogs are so shut down that they don't reveal their true personality until many weeks of foster care.


 Sometimes I try to find help, but good trainers around here are like hens teeth.
Mostly I have found that love and care conquers a lot of problems, and I like watching them blossom. 
I wish I had access to a good trainer. But I have learned a lot over the years, it isn't like I'm young
I used to compete in CKC obedience, and I spent 15 years as a patrol dog handler working under a former RCMP dog master so I have some training. And with hundreds of dogs behind me I have learned.
Shadow has been probably my biggest challenge, and I could write a book about what she has taught me. I have had to make some tough calls on aggressive dogs, but I'm not sold on the idea that saving them all is the way to go.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Hard for me to believe but I have been doing GSDs for nearly 17 years....

Did my first two WL dogs to Sch3, KKL - and with Kyra probably did Sch3 6 or 8 times including a couple of regional trials...also did CDs, CGCs, WH and OB titles....and a CD, CGC on Kelsey, who was a WGSL mixed with ??? black and silver oversized female who liked the schutzhund work but not the gunfire...

Did 2 others to BH/Sch1, and trained and trialed a breeding female I bought with an IPO3....improved on her tracking scores by 20 points! Anyone who knows me and tracking knows I had to have done something with her because I HATE tracking LOL

Was training a granddaughter of my first Sch3 female when I was in a bad accident which left me effectively permanently handicapped....I have a 16 month old from her now that I am hoping to figure out a way to title in spite of issues walking.

As a breeder, I have done OK.....coming from a lifelong passion for horses, and TB racing, I have always been a pedigree person....

My A litter, an oops on a female I adopted pregnant from a trainer convicted of animal abuse, had a male who went 6x Sch3, the Bs a male Sch3 KKL1, who in turn produced several titled dogs, including a V Sch3 daughter. The Cs, 2 titled, 1 KKL1, and 1 LE Vermont State Police Patrol/Narcotics, Ds here and in Belgium - AKC agility, obedience, 4 to Sch3 in Belgium and Finland...E- 2 titled, KKL, and one produced a WUSV competitor who has been on the podium in several Regionals and Nationals; F - 2 Sch3 both shown nationally in USA, WDA, DVG and several with AKC titles, Furi produced several dogs in LE, and a daughter who has been very sucessful on a Regional and National level.....G a Sch3.....H a Sch2 who then produced an IPO3 son, a LE male who went abroad and was killed last fall  ....I - my female that I was hoping to title right before the accident happened, and was unable to...and a couple who got to BH and owners were not able to continue.....J has 1 sch3, competed Nationally and 1 to be titled who has a bunch of Canadian Ob titles...K's an HGH and 3 males training who hopefully will get titled this year...L, M and N are all puppies yet....So not alot of litters over that time, but pleased with the quality and accomplishments of the ones I have bred and the next generations as well.


Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> So much talent and experience here. I wish I could get half the results.
> 
> Not a trainer, not a breeder, don't know anything.
> I run a recycling center for those disposable dogs.





> Sometimes I try to find help, but good trainers around here are like hens teeth.
> Mostly I have found that love and care conquers a lot of problems, and I like watching them blossom.
> I wish I had access to a good trainer. But I have learned a lot over the years, it isn't like I'm young
> I used to compete in CKC obedience, and I spent 15 years as a patrol dog handler working under a former RCMP dog master so I have some training. And with hundreds of dogs behind me I have learned.
> Shadow has been probably my biggest challenge, and I could write a book about what she has taught me. *I have had to make some tough calls on aggressive dogs, but I'm not sold on the idea that saving them all is the way to go.*


You are very humble! 
And I totally agree with your last sentence. Some are not able to live in this world with all the demons they are fighting. :'(


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I always found Cesar to be entertaining. I also respect the man for putting himself in harms way with some very difficult dogs publicly and not hiding what it is he does. He shows quick and measurable results in the before and after picture. 

The man can read dogs very well of that there is no doubt. Because he can read and thus communicate with the dogs effectively he is able to use his own version of operant / classical conditioning. He does a lot of escape avoidance type training both with and without tools he just does not describe it as such. Whatever he might say about dominance and wolves, the reality is this is generally what he does.

Where it all falls apart is when joe trainer or worse joe owner tries to do what he does. He has an ideology not a system. You cant copy him and get the same results especially if your timing sucks. That being said some parts of his ideology are useful for the novice.

Blaming Cesar for some perceived switch in mainstream training is stupid. In my view people like Dunbar, Prior and Yin are more responsible for wasting peoples time and money on ineffective techniques for the PET dog. Many just throw up their hands and leave the dog locked in the yard or worse dump him on craigslist, shelter or put him down.

Notice how many have the same old story. Started in compulsive training and switched because they wanted better results instead of mastering the system they were in.

What they should say is, "started with compulsive training, I sucked at that, then I went to positive training and I still suck". 

Just reading the story about the Rotty pup in the article leaves you scratching your head. 

Pounding on a dog when you have no effective system or ability to read the dog is as pointless as shoving treats in his mouth. The only difference is one version makes the dog look happier while you achieve nothing.

I just did a consult with a couple of Aussies that have a fighting problem. They went to some trainer that supposedly studied under Cesar's system so they were alpha rolling the instigator when he started the fights. 
Trouble is by the time you grab the dog, force him into the position, go through the whole wrestling match and manage not to get bit (they were not always successful in this) and have the dog relax "submit" whatever. The dog has probably lost all perception of the action that led to this drawn out stressful affair.

Punishing fighting behaviours and the precursor symptoms to it is very effective, but your punishment must be well timed, fast and linear to the event that created the consequence. If it is not, then the dog will not clearly understand why he is being punished you are wasting your time. 

So the form of punishment was ineffective and dangerous.

If anything I see the mainstream pet training switching more to the middle of the road which overall is not a bad thing. There will always be crappy trainers and some of them will always get a tv show.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Where it all falls apart is when joe trainer or worse joe owner tries to do what he does. He has an ideology not a system. You cant copy him and get the same results especially if your timing sucks. That being said some parts of his ideology are useful for the novice.


Yet joe owner or wanna be dog whisperer pssting and rolling their dog to submit is what happens. They see the magic of television/editing and believe they can do what he does and get quick results. 

I agree with this/(Dunbar)...training should be fun, for both the handler and the dog. 
If it isn't then put the dog up and figure out a better way to communicate with your partner.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with this/(Dunbar)...training should be fun, for both the handler and the dog.
> If it isn't then put the dog up and figure out a better way to communicate with your partner.


:thumbup: And fun and effective are not mutually exclusive.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Blitzkrieg, I totally don't agree.

Among other things, he does hide what he does. I remember one episode where he brought out an e collar to punish a dog for resource guarding food. First he put it on a staff member and hit vibe (it was a dogtra). Guy says "oh, that's all it is? It's like my phone". Then he puts it on the dog @ 50, he tells the camera "50 is a medium vibration". I've done quite a bit of work with dogtras, never have I slapped a collar on at 50 and just started zapping away. And calling stim a vibration, the whole thing was a crock of misinformation. 50 is not a medium vibration. 50 hurts. 

I think the majority of what he does is positive punishment. He used to do a lot of flooding. I can't think of much of what he does that is escape or avoidance (maybe you could give me an example). Even when it shows him using e collars it is positive punishment, not escape/avoidance. 

I don't see dogs communicating with him. I see dogs looking away from him, avoiding eye contact, trying not to get in trouble.

He does not communicate with dogs in the sense of how I have seen good trainers communicate with dogs: clear explanation of what is wanted & how to do it ect. 

I don't even have much respect for the dealing with dangerous dogs thing because he is SO confrontational. He backs dogs into corners, tries tom"dominate" resource guarders while they are eating a meal....

Not impressed


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> You are very humble!
> And I totally agree with your last sentence. Some are not able to live in this world with all the demons they are fighting. :'(


 I came to this forum for help. As I did with other forums. This place has been a goldmine for me in terms of knowledge, and while I can't foster anymore I can help others. I see a lot of dogs that people wrote off when all they really needed was a different person, or a different way of doing things. 
I'm good with the tough cases, I was the same with horses. I don't believe it has as much to do with the training as that animals in general respond to people who genuinely care. 
I have followed this thread with lots of interest, but the reality is people who know what they are about come through even online. 
If I had had access to this forum and these people 13 years ago, Bud may have had a very different life. I lack the knowledge to do much more then handle him. But I bought him 13 years he wasn't going to get, in a home where he is safe and loved.
I can think of a few other dogs that may have lived had I had access to more knowledge. I do what I can.
So for all you people who think your advice falls on deaf ears, or think that it's a waste of time to offer advice, think again. I am always learning and maybe there are other members like me, when I am 'arguing' I am not ignoring, I am fleshing out ideas and exploring the why's.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

We are getting way off topic discussing Ian and Caesar. 

I remember a helper telling me once that he had nothing left to learn. I found that sad. A closed mind is an empty mind. No two dogs are the same and we learn from each dog we handle (or work). Sometimes we must step out of our comfort zone or out of our box and find new tools (ideas) for our current dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Blitzkrieg, I totally don't agree.
> 
> Among other things, he does hide what he does. I remember one episode where he brought out an e collar to punish a dog for resource guarding food. First he put it on a staff member and hit vibe (it was a dogtra). Guy says "oh, that's all it is? It's like my phone". Then he puts it on the dog @ 50, he tells the camera "50 is a medium vibration". I've done quite a bit of work with dogtras, never have I slapped a collar on at 50 and just started zapping away. And calling stim a vibration, the whole thing was a crock of misinformation. 50 is not a medium vibration. 50 hurts.
> 
> ...


I watched that episode. If it was the american bull dog and he did use vibrate. I dont particularly care when he chooses positive punishment as an option because he generally gets results. You see confrontation I see escape avoidance via body posture which puts pressure on the dog socially. He releases the pressure when the dog shows compliance. You dont need tools to create escape avoidance training.

As for flooding I do it all the time. Dog is aggressive towards other dogs. I take him around other dogs and punish the behaviours I dont like while asking for alternate behaviours I do like. 
Screwing around with thresholds excessively is a waste of time in my book.

What do people want out of their dogs. Calm, compliant behavior not adrenalized sport type work. 

To each their own, when you can get in an enclosed space with those types of dog and get those results, put it on youtube you will be famous .


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Blitzkrieg I am sending you a PM in response to this because I think we were being asked to stop derailing this thread with Cesar debates


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Back to the main topic.

Here is what I have seen when it comes to training, breeding and working dogs. 
Time seems to have minimal impact on the quality of the trainer or even helper. 
What it comes down to is system, practice and results. 
I have been to numerous clubs, trials and seen many trainers both in sport and pet type stuff. 30 years in etc etc. Same goes for breeders, been breeding 40 years look what I did in the eighties blah blah.

Then you see the product of that training, on the field, in real life when it comes to pets, or the dogs these 30 year breeders are producing and selling. 

I have also seen some supposedly experienced helpers really screw up some dogs.

Thats when the blinders come off. 

There are very experienced trainers out there that know their craft and some with less time in. 

In pets, Gary Wilkes comes to mind one of the fathers of clicker training in dogs.

In sport you have 30+ year guys like Wallace, Debbie, Huber etc.

In helper work guys like Vit Glisnick, Brian Harvey and some younger hotshots like Marek Urban and others I cant think of off the top of my head.

Breeding wise there are many breeders in the USA and Europe that have been doing it for 30 years with nothing quantitative to show. Then you have guys like Stephan Schaub with comparatively little time in with one of the best GSD programs in the world.

As for titles:
I have seen dogs with barely adequate drive and training dragged through IPO 3. For me appearing on the field with such a dog would be embarrassing regardless of the outcome.

You want to talk forum:

Imo the best two sport trainers currently on this forum are Alexis and Bailliff. (Look out guys I aim to catch you soon)

Dont know them personally nor have I ever received anything from them one way or another.

The results on video and in points are clear to see. You dont get those results with low quality dogs or anything but the highest level of training.

As for pet training in terms of evidence presented to back claims, Ill take that title. I wouldnt be shocked if there was someone better on here but have yet to see the evidence so until I do...

For decoy work, Jeremy has shown some nice work in the suit category. We await the results from his breeding program.

Never mistake years and experience or even titles for skill. Go see the training and dogs for yourself. Or in this wonderful age of the internet look at the video.

It beats written diatribes any day of the week.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

I don’t know about actual trainers or owners with titled dogs on the forum but during my year of being a member here, I’ve learned that there are a few forum members who in my opinion have a solid understanding of GSDs. In addition they are people who really want to lend support when people need help with their dogs. They are happy to share their knowledge which was probably acquired through their experiences owning and training GSDs and maybe competing with them as well. These people aren’t even looking to be recognized for what they know, they just want to share ideas and to talk about GSDs 

A while back, I had, what I’d consider to be a very serious incident with my dog while out on a walk. 

Our trainer was unreachable that week and I was anxious to know what the heck happened with my dog. Could this be the beginning of aggressive behavior? Was my snap reaction appropriate? Did I over correct? 

When I got home, I started a thread but decided against putting the incident out on the forum So instead I sent a very long PM to a forum member who I was pretty sure would know what my dog’s aggressive reaction meant. I didn’t know if the guy was a trainer but what I did know was that when he responded to posts about aggression and other anti-social behaviors, he always wrote, solid and practical comments...no sarcasm, no rush to the worse case scenerio.just an honest effort to help. 

Anyway, that forum member got right back to me with a logical explanation as to why Finn reacted the way he did and used examples of how his own dogs might behave in that same situation. And he assured me that the reaction wasn’t an indication that my dog was becoming aggressive. 

When I had the chance to talk to Finn’s trainer about the incident, he basically repeated exactly what that forum member told me.

I think there are people on this forum who really are dog whisperers. 
They have the gift but not the credentials. 
And on the flip side of that, there are people who have the credentials and or titled dogs who don't have the gift.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I definitely don't put myself up there with the most experienced... nor do I consider myself a "trainer" but I do understand dogs... most of the time! To me a good trainer has it in them, it's a feeling they have when they get around dogs..

Yes, I've put titles on my dogs, and will continue too and I've put a solid foundation (some easy, some hard) on a lot of others that I've had in and those going on to get their titles and above... or just being good companions.

But there's one thing people seem to miss or forget.. "some dogs" just bring more to the table then the trainers.. they've got all the right components and make their trainers/handlers look really good! 

In IPO, to me it's not about the points or how well we do, nor do I care what anyone else thinks.. It's about the journey with that particular dog and knowing in your heart that you've done the best you could! I guess that's pretty much my motto with life!


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

G-burg said:


> I definitely don't put myself up there with the most experienced... nor do I consider myself a "trainer" but I do understand dogs... most of the time! To me a good trainer has it in them, it's a feeling they have when they get around dogs..
> 
> *Yes, I've put titles on my dogs, and will continue too and I've put a solid foundation (some easy, some hard) on a lot of others that I've had in and those going on to get their titles and above... or just being good companions.*
> 
> ...


Leesa. I think you explained that really well. 
In my previous post I did not intend to insult people who are actual credentialed dog trainers, especially fellow forum members. My intention was to acknowledge the people who are just naturally gifted in the ways of dogs. For a lack of a better phrase I used dog whisperer cuz I don’t know what else to call those special people.

I can truly appreciate the countless hours/months/years that it takes to earn the title of Trainer. 

I'm in awe of people like you who have a natural understanding of dogs and are able to see and get the very Best that each dog you own has to offer ie the best he has to offer in sport or the best he has to offer as a family companion.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I don't think you insulted anyone with what you posted.. Especially not me..

We all have our own idea of what a good trainer is... and there are 100 ways to get to the same end result.. 

I've always been a firm believer in working the dog in front of me.. Good or bad.. And knowing that not all are cut from the same cloth.. not all are going to be good in everything.. One of the dogs I own now is not going to be a high scoring IPO dog.. and it's not that he's a bad dog. It's just who he is and it's up to me to bring out all that I can in him.. Knowing that he's not going to be that he's not going to have fancy prancy heeling.. He's quick on his recall, finishes and dumbbells.. My younger one is going to be a nice heeling dog, he's got a lot of natural tracking abilities and protection, I don't know for sure.. He may be nothing more than a prey dog.. I don't have a good enough helper to determine that, so he's been put up for now.. He's also a very confident dog..

I've had my share of failures but that goes with the territory when working with living breathing creatures that have a brain!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My training experience is all over the place. Some sports I have what I think is quite a bit (several levels of titles on multiple dogs, considerable time training, at one time competing at least one weekend a month) and some sports I've just dabbled in, earning a lower/novice level title here and there. The titles my four GSDs have earned (with me, two of them have earned titles before/after I owned them) are 1 Schutzhund title, 2 BHs, 2 ADs, 1 KKL/breed survey, 2 FOs (obedience), 1 T1 (tracking), 1 PA (protection), 1 OB-1 (obedience), 2 Rally-Obedience, 3 agility titles and several other Qs on two other dogs, 7 dock diving (this will increase soon as my best dock diving dog was just learning last season so jumped in 5 different divisions rather than titling in each division), 4 lure coursing, 13 flyball, 9 conformation, 2 ATTS, 2 CGC, 1 TDI (therapy dog test). I trained two dogs that hold current records for speed or distance in their respective sports. My best GSD has "champion" level titles in four things (titles that generally take multiple seasons/years to accumulate enough points and wins to earn). We've participated in a few national level dog sport events. I like to compete with my dogs since many of my closest friends are people I've met through training dogs and I like to earn the titles and sometimes win the ribbons or trophies since we've put in the hard work training, but in most cases I spend a LOT more time training than competing. Agility for example is something I've done with several dogs now but I find trialing not that fun (it's just not as fun for me as some of the other sports I compete in) so I rarely trial, hence low Qs and titles, but I am always in training classes with my trainer or drop-in handling group and train on my own equipment at home almost daily when the weather is nice. Flyball I find much more fun to compete in and is not as cost-prohibitive to be competing with 2-3 dogs at a time so I make more of a priority to compete as often as we can. Some months we have more tournaments than team training practice which is fine for a seasoned dog. I haven't done IPO/Schutzhund in a few years though I do miss it a lot. My good friends that I met up with and trained with locally moved away and the club I belonged to split up.

There are some amazing trainers on this forum, people that I have had the pleasure to train with in person or even just chat with online. Anne Kent and Lisa Clark are two people that have really helped me understood my best dog which helped my overall motivation for his training and how to focus on his strengths and work through or learn to accept the weaknesses. I have trained with Jason Lin in multiple sports and he is a very good problem solver, he can break down one skill/command into little pieces and think of all different tools, methods, gimmicks, or props that can be used to steer the dog to success. I have not had the pleasure of meeting Alexis but I love following her training and successes. You can't not respect someone that never gave up on their first dog and did multiple SchH3 and FH. Falon on this forum is one of my absolute best friends both in dogs and life in general. I met her through dog training and it's been great getting to know someone who is interested in basically all the same dog sports and most of the same breeds of dogs that I like. There are many more, but those are just a few of my shout outs.


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