# 1st timer...



## BC_surrey (Mar 1, 2011)

hey guys, youn all were extremely helpful with my first post, so heres hoping again...so i have orderd a female gs puppy from a very reputable breeder here in canada, i did the due dilligance and talked to various vets etc around here and they all agree it is a good breeder, my only question is the breeder is a show breeder so will there be any effects or will the puppy lack anything that a woking breed has? when i get her she will be 6 weeks so a baby, but will she lack anything that of a working breeder?

thanks guys....:hug:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why are you getting your pup at 6 weeks? They learn so much from their littermates from 5-8 weeks, I would ask the breeder if you can leave them together til at least late into the 7th week. That is also the time many breeders will evaluate the pups to match the new owners.
As far as lines go show/working are different temperament wise and structurally. It depends on what you want to do with your dog as far as you feeling there may be a "lack".

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/behavior.html

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so what's the pedigree , that will tell . Don't get a dog at 6 weeks . That is not to the benefit of the dog. Are you sure this is a reputable breeder . I think the consensus on this forum would suggest nothing younger than 8 weeks. Some places don't legally allow a transfer any earlier. Think about it . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Are you sure the breeder is reputable if they are selling the pups at 6 weeks old?

ETA: oops I got ninja'd twice!


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## BC_surrey (Mar 1, 2011)

I Dont know why i said 6 weeks, my apologies its a long day at the office, its 8 weeks.


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## BC_surrey (Mar 1, 2011)

also, what i want from the dog is for sure a loving loyal compnaion freind,family member, but also a natrually proctective of the family and home.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

What breeder are you getting the puppy from? What purpose are you buying her for? It sounds like the breeder has a good reputation.


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## BC_surrey (Mar 1, 2011)

"agile" thanks for the reply, the breeder is in aldergrove british comumbia and is woodside shepherds...im getting the dog for a companion freind family member , also as a protecter of the family and home too, i want to stress i dont want her being aggresive and wont train her that way at all, just natrually protective.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think your pup will be everything you dreamed of, with socialization, confidence building and training as long as good genetics are there. And as your breeder has a good reputation, sounds like you'll be just fine.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you realize that you are buying some extreme Canadian/American show lines. Jim Moses is Kaleef kennels . A lot of the genetics coming down through Kaleef and Woodside has Zeus and Zeto Fran Jo . I was a show handler at the time so know the dogs well. They were inbred on Lance of Fran Jo , as influential in American lines as Canto Wienerau was for Germany. A lot of dogs were very elongated and weak in the hock , had a weavy knit and purl action. 
As long as you know.

Sometimes some 'american" dogs are better pets than some of the german show lines.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BC_surrey (Mar 1, 2011)

"carmspack" i appreciate your help and knowledge..but im confused can u explain whats the matter with woodside shepherds? and should i have shyd away from them


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

carmspack said:


> you realize that you are buying some extreme Canadian/American show lines. Jim Moses is Kaleef kennels . A lot of the genetics coming down through Kaleef and Woodside has Zeus and Zeto Fran Jo . I was a show handler at the time so know the dogs well. They were inbred on Lance of Fran Jo , as influential in American lines as Canto Wienerau was for Germany. A lot of dogs were very elongated and weak in the hock , had a weavy knit and purl action.
> As long as you know.
> ]





BC_surrey said:


> "carmspack" i appreciate your help and knowledge..but im confused can u explain whats the matter with woodside shepherds? and should i have shyd away from them


C'mon Carmen, that was Greek to the 2/3 of us that don't know anything about ASL's (like me). . . . give the new guy a break and speak English.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

As an owner of Multiple american bred german shepherds and a member of this forum, I feel the need to tell you the following: This forum is GREAT for getting knowlegable answers to your many "bringing up a puppy", heath and general information questions. You need to know that the majority of members here own what has been termed "working" german shepherds. There is this whole "BIG" thing about which is better , west german showlines, working lines or American Bred GSD's. That being said sometimes you need to take what people write with a grain of salt. If you have done your due diligence and checked out this breeder You should NOT be discouraged to by an AM bred GSD . I absolutely LOVE mine , they are great family pets , have moderate drive and are very healthy.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

horsegirl said:


> As an owner of Multiple american bred german shepherds and a member of this forum, I feel the need to tell you the following: This forum is GREAT for getting knowlegable answers to your many "bringing up a puppy", heath and general information questions. You need to know that the majority of members here own what has been termed "working" german shepherds. There is this whole "BIG" thing about which is better , west german showlines, working lines or American Bred GSD's. That being said sometimes you need to take what people write with a grain of salt. If you have done your due diligence and checked out this breeder You should NOT be discouraged to by an AM bred GSD . I absolutely LOVE mine , they are great family pets , have moderate drive and are very healthy.


I don't think Carmen is trying to discourage her from American bred GSD's. I think she is referring to these dogs' particular lineage which has shown that there could be future health problems. I'm a first time GSD owner and new to this as well, but from my research and understanding, I believe that this is what she was commenting on.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

Tihannah said:


> I don't think Carmen is trying to discourage her from American bred GSD's. I think she is referring to these dogs' particular lineage which has shown that there could be future health problems. I'm a first time GSD owner and new to this as well, but from my research and understanding, I believe that this is what she was commenting on.


I was not necessarily directing my post to Carmen, hence the reason I responded to the OP's post. From my little experience on this forum , while I really believe there are some very knowledgeable people here as well as people really care about this great breed, I was preparing the OP for what is possibly going to get posted to her.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

Tihannah said:


> I don't think Carmen is trying to discourage her from American bred GSD's. I think she is referring to these dogs' particular lineage which has shown that there could be future health problems. I'm a first time GSD owner and new to this as well, but from my research and understanding, I believe that this is what she was commenting on.


Lance of Fran Jo is way back on most dogs pedigrees these days, I feel this whole ASL weak hock ect... is really old. I believe that 10-15 years ago all the weak hock weak back talk may have been legit, I show dogs and see it very rarely in 2011. The trend in ASL (my opinion) is getting away from the extreme.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no my comments were made so that the OP knew what he was getting. He is new to gsd. I am not discouraging him from getting an American bred show line dog , nor discouraging him from getting a pup from this breeder , Woodside.
There is a difference in body type in the specialty shows and the all breed rings. The specialty show lines are really exaggerated through the rear - frog legs .
Temperaments tend to be soft which limits potential . 
Here is the big problem . Breeding criterion does not include anything remotely to do with any form of work . No consideration to drives , tracking , temperament tests, courage . Just physical conformation .

I know the dogs. I produced BIS , BIB ROM, handled Selects , handled other peoples dogs . I have a stack of German Shepherd Reviews going back to the early 70's . The dogs sure have changed ! Yoncalla's Mike was a good type that lost to the Lance of Fran JO type Zeto of Fran-Jo and brother Zeus of Fran-Jo (inbred Lance) to Sabra Dennis of Gan Edan and even more extreme now. Doppelt-Tay's Zip

this is what I mean by the exaggerated long rear Doppelt-Tay's Masterkey 
still so typical of the current "specialty" american show line shehperds.

The dogs I represented I knew back in the day.

have fun
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs 

If the OP wants a pet -- go for it. If he has an agenda that includes schutzhund or training , trialing , he may be disappointed.

I went through the obedience ring -- had an Obedience Grand Victrix in 1981 . Went through all the steps to getting doing all the sanction matches to become a Judge. It is rare to see a GSD obedience trial (CKC/AKC) and when they are their performance is painful to watch , very tentative , I'd rather not be here. Very very rare to see an American show line in sport . The last good one I know of was Linda Shaw's Corry , who was in French ring along with me , and became the sire of her all time favourite dog "Tim" . Corry was the sire, Carmspack Katiana (Kilo sister) was the dam . 

The OP has to know what it is that he wants to do with the dog.

That's all I intended . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

carmspack said:


> no my comments were made so that the OP knew what he was getting. He is new to gsd. I am not discouraging him from getting an American bred show line dog , nor discouraging him from getting a pup from this breeder , Woodside.
> There is a difference in body type in the specialty shows and the all breed rings. The specialty show lines are really exaggerated through the rear - frog legs .
> Temperaments tend to be soft which limits potential .
> Here is the big problem . Breeding criterion does not include anything remotely to do with any form of work . No consideration to drives , tracking , temperament tests, courage . Just physical conformation .
> ...


very good post . I am not an expert by all means, I do not know all of the dogs you referenced. I agree to a point about the difference of specialty and all breed dogs. I am seeing more specialty/all breed crossovers , which is a reallly good sign. I appologize if I sounded a little harsh , I agree that the OP needs to look for a dog specific to what they are planning to do with it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hey horsegirl don't apologize , not necessary.

The biggest problem with American show lines, not dogs domestically bred because that is another discussion . We keep importing and importing and importing yet don't support the second and third generations that come from those imports. We have the genetics, the brains to breed some excellent dogs -- and then they get passed over for an import .

Anyway , the American show lines never enter any arena where the dogs characters are evaluated. The big national shows where Grand Victors , Grand Victrixes are crowned , held by the national breed club , provided a Temperament Test which was voluntary. Very simple stuff. Approach by friendly stranger , nothing outside of normal life , going for a walk and encountering what may come. Well the first year had a decent turn out -- until eyes were opened and many failed . The following years few participate. One National show I went to there were dogs wide eyed freaking out - running out of the ring. One year I think only 3 or 4 dogs passed. The judge was an ex Toronto police officer who also participated in CKC trialing. He was very considerate "easy" , even so panicky dogs -- of the 3 or 4 that passed 2 were from my breeding , one was Linda Shaw's showxcarmspack-ddr/westworking lines "Tim" . Here are the rules German Shepherd Dog Club of America Temperament Testing

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## mayapj (Feb 24, 2011)

Following up on Onyx and everyone else, please don't get that pup until 8 weeks! I'm really concerned about any breeder that lets a pup go at 6 weeks. 6-8 weeks is important dog to dog socialization time and NO reputable breeder would do that.


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## mayapj (Feb 24, 2011)

sorry....missed the follow up post. Good 8 weeks.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

carmspack said:


> hey horsegirl don't apologize , not necessary.
> 
> The biggest problem with American show lines, not dogs domestically bred because that is another discussion . We keep importing and importing and importing yet don't support the second and third generations that come from those imports. We have the genetics, the brains to breed some excellent dogs -- and then they get passed over for an import .
> 
> ...


I agree that there are way too many GSD's that do not show true character. I do not know all ASLl breeders but the ones i associate with are working hard to bring the health and confidence back into ASL dogs. I do not communicate well , I guess what I am trying to say on this forum; with all "types" of GSD's, we have breeders that try to improve the breed and others that do not put as much thought to keeping true to what this great breed should be about. I love the fact that my dogs are confident , aloof , bold and very loving to their pack. I just lucked out with finding a group of people that love to show yet want the strength of character in their dogs. My breeder only breeds dogs with correct temperament , health certified, and that can win in the show ring. I so appreciate all ideas, opinions and expertise of everyone on this forum. I am not a very good debater and sometime have a hard time getting my point across.


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