# Emergency Vet visit - ending VERY badly



## fiddle (Oct 17, 2012)

*I apologize for the length of this post, but it is worth the read so this doesnt happen to you ....
*
I am writing this after experiencing the sudden loss of our German Shepherd dog a couple of weeks ago. He was a 19 month old, very healthy and energetic purebred Shepherd who was highly trained and the best pet anyone could ask for. He died very suddenly after what I consider a very clear case of Veterinary Malpractice.

A couple of weeks ago, after my wife returned home from 3 hours of training with our 2 German Shepherds (which was a daily routine), we noticed that he seemed a little off …. Almost like he was so physically exhausted he could barely walk around without staggering. This was a first, and completely abnormal for him as he always had an overabundance of energy. We kept a very close eye on him for the next couple of hours in the house where he would constantly get up, lay down, get up, lay down literally every 10 seconds like he was very uncomfortable. In addition to this, he also vomited which was again, very abnormal.

At approx.. 8pm the same evening, we decided to call our vet’s 24 hour emergency line to have him seen immediately. We know our dogs well and this was not normal. The very first question we were asked by the answering service for the vet was if we had $160 + tax to cover the emergency call if the vet decided he needed to be seen. Of course it seems a vets first concern always seems to be money, however I quickly dismissed this and told them my dog needed to be seen, the cost was irrelevant. I only learned during this call that we would not be seeing our normal vet, but that they shared the emergency service with other veterinary clinics, and we would see who was on call this evening. The answering service would have the vet call us and they would decide if the dog was sick enough to be seen.

Approx. 5-10 minutes later the vet on call rang my cell phone and I basically explained the same as I have described above and agreed to see us, but was a 45 minute drive away …. I simply asked them to be as quick as possible and I would meet at the vet office in my town that they had access too. This is where things went very wrong.

We met at approx.. 9:20pm that evening … we were waiting. We had suggested that maybe it was something along the lines of “bloat”, however we are not the experts which is why we called the vet. (we had a friends dog die recently with bloat so were a bit familiar with the symptoms) The first thing done was checking his heart rate which was approx.. 140/minute. This is excessive for any dog, especially one that was in incredible shape and had done nothing to speak of for multiple hours. This should have been clue #1. From here he again vomited all over the vets floor a fairly large amount of fluid. The fluid was very dark in color which seemed odd as he had not eaten since the morning, and again vomited before we left home to go to the vet. The vet checked and said it did appear to have some blood in it, but was likely from him vomiting earlier and his stomach was just irritated and he drank a lot of water so maybe he just needed to get rid of it. This should have been clue #2.

From here it was decided to do some xrays of his stomach to see if bloat was in fact what the problem was. In all, there were 3 xrays taken and the best way I can explain what happened with the vet reading them, was the vet really had no idea what they were looking at. The vet suggested his stomach looked fine, and that it looked like he had a lot of gas and his intestines were out of sort … we could do nothing but nod and agree. We certainly are not trained to read XRays and diagnose animals. The vet should be however. The vet looked, and looked at the XRays … but nothing much more came from this. The vet did say that it was apparent that the dog DID NOT need any emergency surgery as he probably needed to pass this gas they were seeing and he would be ok from there. The vet decided that the dog should have an IV with some fluid as he might be dehydrated (which was kinda obvious from the vomiting) so we laid him down, the vet shaved his leg and “attempted” to get in an IV. As the vet was poking in the needle into his front leg, he flinched a bit and the vet missed the vain. The vet pulled out the IV and simply gave up trying to give him any fluid. The vet continued on and gave him a shot of Zantac in his hind quarter to help with the “gas” …. After approx. an hour, the vet took XRay #3 and once again, basically said there were no changes, still appeared to be gas but the dog DID NOT need emergency surgery.

All of this time, he laid on the vets floor barely moving … and we were very scared as it was now midnight and it was clear we had a vet that was not very competent in this situation (an emergency). There was not much else we could have done here. My wife took him outdoors to see if he had to pee, and he immediately vomited 2 more times. The vet came out with gloves on and picked up a bit and took it inside. Sure enough it was very bloody and the vet quickly jumped to “maybe it is an ulcer”, then immediately told us to give him these 5 pills that were essentially ulcer medication and would help curb the bleeding. Not knowing any better, I tried to give these 5 pills to him as he laid on the floor, but I just could not get them into him. Frustrated, I told the vet I would give them to him when I got home, which in the end I did not do. Gut feeling told me this had nothing to do with an ulcer at all.

We paid the bill and took him home, both distraught at what we had just experienced for 3+ hours. It was now after midnight and my wife got into bed in our spare room, with him to at least let him get some sleep while keeping an eye on him. When she got up in the morning, he seemed a little less restless but was still clearly very lethargic. More so than the day before. Now that it was normal business hours, we called our normal vet to ask what we should do. His heart rate was now 160/minute. We told this to our vet, and explained how lethargic he was along with him being less restless. (of course, he was dying we now know) Our vet said they read the report from the evening before, but did not look at the xrays as they were very busy. they suggested to give him a series of needles with saline at home, in an attempt to rehydrate him. At no point, did they suggest rushing him in at all. In all, my wife called our vet 2 or 3 times that morning, but they were very busy and it seems just did not have time to see him.

At approx.. 2pm the following day, my wife and I called another vet clinic in a city about 60 minutes from where we live as we had him there before to have a physical. They IMMEDIATELY said to get him in the truck and bring him to them, which we did. He vomited one more time before we got him up and into the kennel. We loaded him into the kennel and off she went to be seen by this vet clinic. At this point, he could barely get up at all and seemed to be just barely holding on. My wife stopped about hallway into the drive and when she did, she called me in hysterics that he was dying. I did everything I could to try and calm her, but she was literally hysterical. At this point in time, she happened to be 5 minutes from the vet clinic where the vet from the evening before worked so I called them, explained the situation and said I didn’t believe he would make it to the clinic she was driving too and asked if they could see him immediately. I was told that the vet was in surgery and they were too busy to see him. My wife should continue driving to the other clinic 30 minutes up the road. Not that I wanted to see that vet again, but weighing the options I think having him seen in 5 minutes versus 30 was appropriate.

I kept my wife on the phone for most of the drive, while I jumped into my car and headed for the vet clinic that was an hour away. About 30 minutes into my drive, I got a call from my wife that she was there, and he was dead. When she pulled into the vet clinic, there were multiple vets waiting, ran outside, and took him inside and performed emergency CPR, etc. There was nothing they could do and pronounced him dead while my wife was physically broken down in the parking lot, screaming and crying. He likely had passed while in the vehicle very shortly before she arrived at the clinic as when they took him from the kennel in the vehicle, his tongue was already out and he appeared to be completely limp.

Once I arrived, I had a long discussion with the vet, after an hour or so of crying an consoling my wife. The vet stated very clearly that from looking at the XRays & report from the evening before (they had the xrays and report sent to them before he arrived) it was blatantly clear that the dog needed emergency surgery the evening before. Everything in the XRays, and everything she wrote in the report apparently screamed surgery, however the vet was obviously not knowledgeable enough to see what was happening. His intestines were 5-10 times normal size which was obvious in the XRays. He suffered what is called “Mesenteric Volvulus” which is essentially where his intestines flipped and strangled him from the inside out. This is a condition that can happen in deep chested dogs (Shepherds, Great Danes, etc…) albeit rare.

I have since had 4 different vets evaluate the xrays (without the report) to see what they diagnosed this as. In every case, all said that it was 100% clear that the dog needed emergency surgery as his intestines were grossly enlarged. The XRays (and symptoms) screamed of this … but yet the vet completely misdiagnosed it the evening before this leading to the unnecessary death of our beloved dog. This could have ended very differently, however he died because of the grave mistakes this vet had made.

I had an autopsy done as well, which confirmed 100% that his intestines had flipped and his death could have potentially been avoided if we had proper medical care. I have ALL of the documentation supporting this.

The moral of my story really is be VERY careful who you use for a vet clinic. Question their emergency capabilities as I have now learned that most vets in our area are not trained for emergency’s …. Which is highly disturbing considering they can with a straight face charge you emergency fees. NEVER once that evening was it suggested we take him to another clinic where they might be trained to handle real emergencies. If it was, trust me we would have been on the road no matter how long the drive. At midnight that night, after going through what we did, my wife and I obviously were not clear minded.

We have not received any calls from any of the vets involved suggesting they made a grave mistake and that they were very sorry. We have NOT been offered any refunds (It cost me $1200+ to essentially end my own dog’s life within those 18 hours) and we have lost a dog from a breeding we waited 2 years for. All very sad to say the least.

My wife is very slow to get over any of this … it has been a very difficult time. The lack of care/concern from the vets involved is also a tragedy.

We miss him gravely, but now I have a job to do in his honor, and so this doesn’t happen to anyone else in the future.

Note: I’ve removed pertinent information due to official complaints/legal proceedings which I’m pursuing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

OMG. What a horrible, horrible story. That poor dog, and poor you and your wife, it's just sad all the way around. He didn't need to suffer and die, and your loss of a beloved pet was completely preventable. I don't know how you deal with something like that.

Unfortunately, bloat (with or without torsion) is all too common in our breed, and I can't believe the first vet didn't recognize what was going on, or at least that this was a very serious emergency requiring immediate action. There have been dogs on this board that have bloated in the middle of the night on an empty stomach, so not having eaten recently definitely does not rule out bloat. 

I am so, SO, sorry.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

That's awful, that really is a horror story . I hope the legal proceedings go well and at the very least that clinic learns to smarten up 

I'm so very sorry for your loss :hugs:


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## kbella999 (Jan 6, 2012)

I am so very sorry for you having to go through all that. Your story made me cry. I can't imagine how you must have felt. It is hard enough to lose a beloved pet but then to do everything for that dog and have it still pass away under those circumstances must be so hard. Hugs to you and your family.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I am so very sorry for your loss and the pain your dog needlessly suffered. I hope, given these facts, you are successful in your legal proceedings.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

What a horrible tragedy and tragic loss that could have been prevented. I can't imagine your feelings of desperation during those hours. I'm very sorry for your loss. Fortunately, our emergency clinic is excellent- unfortunately that may be an exception.


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## Gregc (Aug 10, 2012)

I'm going to pray for all of you. I am so sorry for your loss. Bless you for going forward in the behalf of your lost friend and in the interest of others.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I am so very sorry, what a horrible ordeal. It's basically everyones worst nightmare. I can't imagine the pain you and your wife are feeling. My sincerest condolences. I would definately share your story everywhere including local newspaper & tv, and hope that something like that never happens again.
I am so sorry.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How awful. 

I would have done the same thing probably. Even if we are thinking bloat, I think that sometimes we are really relieved if they do not say Emergency Surgery. And we will generally trust a vet. 

My girl was shipped over on December 29, late at night, and on December 31 -- yeah, a holiday, she had what looked like bloat. I also knew that pregnancy was confirmed before shipping, so I probably shouldn't have been that concerned about bloat. But, she was exhibiting signs of bloating, looking at her stomach, very uncomfortable, etc. 

They did x-rays and there was a LOT of gas. They did say she was not bloating, but she did pass a LOT of gas in the room there. 

Now the closer 24 hour clinic, I just don't trust. I have a lot of dogs and have had to go there several times, but have never seen the same vet twice. So, lots of turnover, and a few times I got over-reactions to things there. Anyhow, I put the dog in the car and rushed her more than 2 hours away in a blizzard to go to the better clinic. They said almost the same thing they said to you about the gas in the intestines, but she wasn't vomiting, no blood, etc. In fact, she was dancing around like nothing bad was happening. While she was groaning in the car, on the way up, and I was happy to hear it because it meant she was still alive. 

Bloat is terrifying, and unless you have experienced it, I don't know how you can guard against a vet that doesn't know what they are doing. 

I am really sorry this happened. So young. RIP Little Big Guy.


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

I very sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing your story with us. It is clear that we can't always belive that all vets always are right.When my 12 year old was dying I called my son who was 5 mins away so he could help me get her in the car and called 3 vets in my area and could reach no one. this was in the afternoon.. I knew she was dying but I didn'nt want her to suffer. She end up dying before my son got there on my livingroom floor. It is very hard to lose these great dogs. Hope you at least get your money back . but it won't replace your loss.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

I`m so sorry for your loss, and that you and your wife had to go through this because of some untrained vets,


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

I too, am sorry for your loss. My sincerest condolences to you and your wife.

Forum rules prevent me from expressing my real thoughts on this....so I can only say I hope you are your wife are the proud owners of a 24 hour Emergency Vet Clinic when all of the legal proceedings are finished!


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## koda00 (Apr 27, 2009)

ken k said:


> I`m so sorry for your loss, and that you and your wife had to go through this because of some untrained vets,


im sorry i just cant type after reading this. above says it all or me


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm really sorry for your horribly tragic loss. I'm sorry that your poor dog suffered and that your family is now suffering.


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## german shepherd 1600 (Sep 28, 2012)

I'm very sorry for your loss . I wish you the best with your legal pursuits .


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Beau said:


> I too, am sorry for your loss. My sincerest condolences to you and your wife.
> 
> Forum rules prevent me from expressing my real thoughts on this....so I can only say I hope you are your wife are the proud owners of a 24 hour Emergency Vet Clinic when all of the legal proceedings are finished!


:thumbup::thumbup: This is EXACTLY what I was thinking!!

The whole time I'm reading the story, my mind kept yelling "Bloat" "Bloat". I would not stop at "legal proceedings". Go to your state's Veterinary Board. I've worked in Vet ER's - there is NO excuse for this!

I was lucky - was able to save my 2-yr-old Irish Setter because his breeder taught me about the ailment & wouldn't even let me take him home until I'd put together a Bloat Kit. It saved his life. When we rescued our GSD, I put together another kit. I suggest the same for you.

RIP Young One.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

What a terrible tragedy ...a senseless loss and unbearable heartbreak..The legal stuff will at least give your mind somewhere to go besides reliving the pain of watching your GSD die under such horrible circumstances..I pray that you and your family will find peace from this pain..jan


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My dog was sick a couple weeks ago and after $1200, I still don't know what it was. BUT the first doctor was concerned with bloat, because like yours there was gas in there. He actually was waiting on a second opinion, but I already was at a different vet the next day. The second vet didn't think it was anything to worry about. The only thing that saved my sanity was she was not throwing up. Mine recovered after some antiobiotics and I'm truly sorry that yours didn't have that chance. May your dog rest in peace. It's obvious you loved your dog


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Olivers mama said:


> Bloat Kit. It saved his life. When we rescued our GSD, I put together another kit. I suggest the same for you.


 
What is in this bloat kit?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

After working for vets for 35+ years, I suggest you do pursue legal proceedings. 
Vets pay malpractice insurance just like doctors and to be honest, this is blatent malpractice. Its really interesting to see how different practices handle things like this, we always called, apologized, tried to help the family through the loss of a pet whether losing a pet in surgery, or through another reason. I am amazed that you have gotten no condolences from this clinic, but they probably know they messed up and are expecting a legal issue from this.
I am so sorry for your pain and loss.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

You would think that a vet could be trusted fully,but the sad reality is that you always can't. I know it won't bring your baby back,but I hope you get some justice for him.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

You gonna laugh @ me, llombardo?:crazy:

1 pc soft clear plastic tubing --- 3/4-1"
Vaseline or KY jelly (for lubricating the end of the tube that goes down the throat)
2 bottles Di-Gel
Funnel to fit inside tube

Some people also use a block of wood - meant to keep the dog's mouth open during tube insertion. They cut a hole in the center of that wood for the tube to pass thru. I've never used one. When Brandy (my Setter) went into bloat, I just worked the tube thru his mouth, into his stomach. They "say" you can 'practice' on a healthy dog, but that seems cruel. (Altho we did practice on the Office Dog when I worked for the ER vet)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your boy.....it is unbelievable that any vet could not recognize bloat and that you lost a beloved dog due to that lack of knowledge....

Lee


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

I am so very sorry. How tragic. I would def be going after that vet. Prayers to you and your wife.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> You gonna laugh @ me, llombardo?:crazy:
> 
> 1 pc soft clear plastic tubing --- 3/4-1"
> Vaseline or KY jelly (for lubricating the end of the tube that goes down the throat)
> ...



I would never recommend that people intubate their dogs if they have never done it before.

To the OP: So sorry for your loss. I hope this gets reviewed by your state's Veterinary Board.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

What a sad tragic story. It must have been awful to have to go though that; to watched a beloved pet die in such a manor. My heart goes out to you and your wife. I hope you get your day in court and i hope they have to pay for what they did to you and your poor pet.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am so very sorry, for all of you, how tragic and how awful that this probably could have been taken care of..I would sue the pants off them and I am not a sue happy person, but I would honestly want that vet out of practice


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Verivus said:


> I would never recommend that people intubate their dogs if they have never done it before.


First, I am not recommending that anyone do anything with their dog. It's up to the individual if they want to learn life-saving techniques - for humans OR pets.

Second - 'intubate' generally refers to putting a breathing tube into the trachea. 

The purpose of this tube (in my Bloat Kit) is to get into the stomach. To release / relieve the gas & possible ensuing torsion. It is an emergent response only. 2 totally different arenas.


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## SewSleepy (Sep 4, 2012)

Olivers mama said:


> The purpose of this tube (in my Bloat Kit) is to get into the stomach. To release / relieve the gas & possible ensuing torsion. It is an emergent response only. 2 totally different arenas.


Are you far from you emergency vet? We're about 10 min from ours (much less if I drive and it's an emergency). I can't imagine trying this at home when we're so close and could call on the way so they'd be expecting us. 

It also sounds, from your other post, that you have some sort of vet experience, which we don't have so that probably plays into my thoughts. 



Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

That is a very sad story. I am sorry for your loss


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Actually, it was the Setter breeder who educated me about bloat & taught me. From that point, my employer / vet decided to train us all.

It's strictly first-aide. But I tend to believe in being proactive. In other words, if you have a deep-chested breed (like GSD) & there is an ailment specific to that build that can be life-threatening, isn't it a good idea to learn first aide? Granted, my first aide kits at home are odd (lidocaine, sutures & suture material...) but I have what I'm prepared to use in an emergency.

BTW - our emergency vet is 40 minutes away - but I (like you), have made it in far less time in life-threatening pet emergencies.


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Olivers mama said:


> You gonna laugh @ me, llombardo?:crazy:
> 
> 1 pc soft clear plastic tubing --- 3/4-1"
> Vaseline or KY jelly (for lubricating the end of the tube that goes down the throat)
> ...



I have one of these kits as well. Our vet recommended we keep one around the house since it's 45 minutes to the nearest emergency clinic.

She also printed out an instructional manual (I think it came from a GD website) and showed us the proper technique to insert the tube.

Its intended to be used only in the case of severe emergency when time is of the essence and the dogs life is in danger.

Fortunately, I've never had to use it.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Thank you, Beau! I was beginning to think some people thought I was practicing voo-doo at home on my pets....


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Olivers mama said:


> Thank you, Beau! I was beginning to think some people thought I was practicing voo-doo at home on my pets....


LOL....

In my case, just being the good Boy Scout, always "Be prepared"!!


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I'm new here, and this is the first post I've seen from the OP, and what a sad post to read. I'm so sorry for your loss, and from such a horrible tragedy that could so easily have been avoided. 

I had something similar happen to me last year with my last dog, and the pain from such a sudden death is heart wrenching. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your wife during this horrible time.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm so very sorry that you lost your pup, my condolences to you and your family!!! It always hurts to lose a much loved dog, only it seems worse when he is so young.

Mesenteric volvulus/torsion is a rare, very deadly form of torsion. My JR is one of the few dogs I've heard who were lucky enough to survive the diagnosis and surgery (at that time there was only about a 3 to 5% chance of surviving this form of torsion). 

But it appears the chances have improved over the years judging from what this 2004 study, published by the US National Library of MedicineNational Institutes of Health found ... that 5 out of 12 dogs (about 42%) diagnosed were saved ... which is a _huge_ improvement in their chances of survival. And I'm sure the chances of survival may have increased from when this was written.

"Mesenteric volvulus in the dog: a retrospective study of 12 cases.
Junius G, Appeldoorn AM, Schrauwen E. 
Source
Dierenartsenpraktijk Plantijn, Bosduifstraat 18/20, 2018 Antwerp, Belgium.
Abstract

_*Mesenteric volvulus was diagnosed in 12 dogs over a nine-year period. Each case was presented with abdominal distension and shock. Haematochezia, which is frequently reported in association with mesenteric volvulus, was present in only two of the dogs. The diagnosis, which in all cases was based on radiography, was followed by immediate treatment for shock and surgical intervention whenever possible. In five of the 12 cases, the volvulus was treated successfully and these patients survived. This indicates that the prognosis for mesenteric volvulus might be better than is currently believed, and immediate laparotomy is recommended if mesenteric volvulus is suspected.*_"

Mesenteric volvulus in the dog: a retrosp... [J Small Anim Pract. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI


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## Zeusismydog (Aug 23, 2001)

I am so very sorry for your loss. No words can express how bad I feel for you and your wife.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

You can also use a roll of tape(like 1" elasticon or white tape) to put into a dogs mouth to hold it open enough to insert the stomach tube. The hole in the center provides the way for the tube , the tape fits right behind the canines and its soft so no way to hurt the dogs mouth.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> First, I am not recommending that anyone do anything with their dog. It's up to the individual if they want to learn life-saving techniques - for humans OR pets.
> 
> Second - 'intubate' generally refers to putting a breathing tube into the trachea.
> 
> The purpose of this tube (in my Bloat Kit) is to get into the stomach. To release / relieve the gas & possible ensuing torsion. It is an emergent response only. 2 totally different arenas.


Actually, intubation refers to putting a tube into any body canal. What you refer to is called endotracheal intubation. If you read my post properly you would see I had written that I would never recommend it. I never said you did. 

I doubt the average person would even know where to insert the tube and end up accidentally sending it the wrong way down. Bloat kits are great but only with proper instruction from a licensed veterinarian.


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## fiddle (Oct 17, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and prayers ... and kind words.

I hope this was at least informational, and that no-one ever has to suffer through anything like this, like we have.

I've run the gambit of emotions since this has happened, and honestly wasn't even going to post the original post ... I want so bad to name names, name vet's and go on an absolute social media frenzy. however for now, I have to refrain.

I know the local (and likely national) news would love to take this on for a story, and the backing I could garner from Facebook, Twitter and the likes would be overwhelming. But if I go down this path it will just muddy the waters for the further actions I currently have under way. I will do my best to keep everyone abreast of what is happening with this.

In the meantime, the unfortunate part now is we will have to re-live this numerous more times as we get in front of the veterinary boards, courts, etc ... I just hope my better half is able to get through this, without too much more pain. I hope we make a difference so this NEVER happens again, and the vet in question gets a new job flipping burgers.

As one other poster in this thread had said, thank goodness this forum has rules, otherwise my rant would have been much more colourful.

Thanks again to everyone ! It means a lot.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

My bloat emergency kit is a mere packet of Gas X strips. Fortunately I'm very close to our vet so I can call her at any time if I suspect it's happening. If the OP would post his location perhaps he could PM others in that area with a head's up on the vet in question. Again, my heartfelt condolences to you and you wife. There aren't enough tears


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

Im so sorry for your loss. :-( rest in peace sweet angel. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Verivus said:


> Actually, intubation refers to putting a tube into any body canal. What you refer to is called endotracheal intubation. *If you read my post properly* you would see I had written that I would never recommend it. I never said you did.
> 
> *I doubt the average person would even know where to insert the tube and end up accidentally sending it the wrong way down. Bloat kits are great but only with proper instruction from a licensed veterinarian*.


There's always someone who wants to pick a fight.:crazy: 

I DID read your post "properly". I never suggested just "anyone" learn this. However - you are on a GSD forum - & GSDs are prone to this. So, what I AM saying - is learn the technique. Or don't lecture me about learning the technique & saving my dog's life. I will NEVER apologize for learning the technique & saving Brandy's life. Nor will I apologize for my employer / vet teaching all his staff how to do this. But I will REPEAT - it was the Setter BREEDER who educated me - not a vet.

Do you know CPR? For humans? Then - wouldn't it make sense to learn this to PERHAPS save your beloved dog from such a horrendous death? What if the OP's breeder had thought enough of his sales that he/she insisted - as did my Setter breeder - that I learn about Bloat & have a kit on hand. PERHAPS the pup could have been saved & the OP wouldn't have had to deal with ignorant vets & now legal action. Plus, they might still have their pup. I hope - now that the warning signs have become 1st-hand experience - that the OP goes on a tirade about educating GSD owners. They would be excellent (after a little training & practice) & educating GSD owners who arer truly interested in first aide for their GSDs.

To do anything less is - IMO - negligent.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> There's always someone who wants to pick a fight.:crazy:
> 
> I DID read your post "properly". I never suggested just "anyone" learn this. However - you are on a GSD forum - & GSDs are prone to this. So, what I AM saying - is learn the technique. Or don't lecture me about learning the technique & saving my dog's life. I will NEVER apologize for learning the technique & saving Brandy's life. Nor will I apologize for my employer / vet teaching all his staff how to do this. But I will REPEAT - it was the Setter BREEDER who educated me - not a vet.
> 
> ...


I don't quite get you, lol. Who said anyone had to apologize for anything? You are the one taking this way out of context. Obviously it is a good idea to learn how to actually use a bloat kit. Hence my last sentence in my last post. I would think it is ideal that you learn intubation from an actual vet and not a breeder. Not to knock on breeders, but the vets are the ones doing this all the time. Though that's besides the point; if you know what you're doing then you know what you're doing. I have no idea what you're ranting on about. You seem to be the one picking a fight. 

Also, I don't think knowing this beforehand would've helped the OP's dog since this was mesenteric volvulus/torsion. The OP had already suspected bloat; it was the ER vet that didn't know what he was doing.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

That is an awful experience to go through! 

I had to bring my dog to ER once and was treated very differently. It was the Xmas holidays and I dropped in the only local ER open and they assumed everyone that walks through the door must have an emergency. They took my dog right away, almost like ripped it out of my hands, by coming over to the front door to meet me, while listening to me explain what the issue are. The people who had my dog just rushed the dog inside, I don't think they stopped to listen to me. They didn't ask us about payment until my dog is inside being treated first. When the dog settled a day later, then they agreed to release the dog to another normal vet for further monitoring, just to play it super safe. I've assumed this was normal emergency practice but after reading your post I truly felt you have a severely mishandled case! 

The most kind thing the emergency vet could have done for you is admit he doesn't know what's happening and refer you to someone else. 

I assume you're now shopping for a new regular vet.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Olivers mama said:


> ...
> *What if the OP's breeder had thought enough of his sales that he/she insisted - as did my Setter breeder - that I learn about Bloat & have a kit on hand. PERHAPS the pup could have been saved & the OP wouldn't have had to deal with ignorant vets & now legal action. Plus, they might still have their pup.* I hope - now that the warning signs have become 1st-hand experience - that the OP goes on a tirade about educating GSD owners. They would be excellent (after a little training & practice) & educating GSD owners who arer truly interested in first aide for their GSDs.
> 
> To do anything less is - IMO - negligent.


Unless I'm reading this wrong I'm kind of confused. 

How would knowing how to intubate a dog for stomach bloat have helped save the poor little pup's life from mesenteric torsion??? The stomach wasn't involved, no stomach torsion was mentioned by the pup's owner ... the tube wouldn't have gone into the intestines where the blood circulation to the intestines had been cut off by the torsion of the mesentary system (thus killing the intestines and the pup). 

Education should come with knowledge and advocating doing a procedure on a dog for stomach bloat when it has mesenteric torsion isn't the best example of educating the GSD fancy ... to do like this is - IMO - negligent.


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## 4score (Nov 4, 2011)

So sorry for your loss. That was so hard to even read that I can't even imagine the pain in actually going through that nightmare. Good luck with your legal actions.....


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Such a tragic loss. I'm so sorry for your loss ... no animal and their owners should have to go through that. Thank you for taking the time to share your story. Hopefully at the end of the day it will help save another dog's life.


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## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss. What a tragedy!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh I am so sorry. Unfortunately, we don't always know how good our vet is until the need is dire. 

I know with my cat that died of cancer, my vet kept telling me his temperature was normal and his that they had done an extensive blood panel and everything looked fine. He kept telling me he was stumped. After about a week of diagnostics not turning anything up, I went to another clinic. Within half an hour they told me he had a very high fever and his bloodwork (they used my clinic's paperwork) was totally messed up.

Whether they were robbing me or incompetent, I don't know, I just know they are no longer my vet. Either way, it's a deal breaker for me.


Again, I'm so very sorry for your loss. I hope you and your wife are holding up.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I think, from lots of years of experience as a breeder and as a vet tech (35+ years) that you have to be very careful of telling people how easy it is to "treat" your animals and that anyone can "treat" their own animals. As an example in this case What seems like a "bloat" that a person might feel a tube will cure it, in actuality was not bloat but a mesentaric torsion and trying to tube this pup would have done nothing but cause more pain.
When I used to breed Dobermans, I could crop my own ears, the vet would anesthize the pup and I would do the show cut I wanted. The vet did not like doing crops. Would I tell someone else" just get some tranquilizer, cut the ear flap away and stitch it up and go for it? No not at all. I know how and did remove my own puppy dewclaws, but would certainly not tell an owner who just had puppies how to remove them at home........There are many procedures YOU might feel comfortable doing, but should not tell another person how to do it. I can do many things on my own dogs/horses/cats etc but would not tell another person how to proceed on theirs.
Just because a person has been taught how to do something doesn't make it a good idea. Putting a tube down into a belly can be simple or can be placed wrong and into the lungs it goes.Even putting a tube into a sedated dog/cat can be tricky if the cords are spasming, etc, its not just a simple open mouth insert tube. Tubing baby puppies to stomach tube them can seem an easy procedure, but I can't even count the number of folks that have drowned their own puppies because the formula went into the lungs instead of the belly and they are hysterical saying" my breeder taught me how"... 
I can't imagine the pain the OP is going thru. He put his sick dog in the hands of a vet and the vet pretty much let the dog die from non treatment and the wrong treatment. You put trust in a vet and then lose. Makes it so hard. I am so very glad that I live where my vet is also my emergency vet, they know my dogs/cats/horses and know me.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I am so very sorry to read this. What a tragic loss. I can surely understnad your terrible pain. I hope you are sucessful in helping this "vet" into a new career. Sadly it won't bring your pup back. 

Posts like these scare me. I live in a small rural town. Our vet is very good. The afterhours and weekends scare me. If I cannot find him we are screwed. The other vets in town do not share call for afterhours emergency. The nearest ER is 100 miles away. We have gas x strips for bloat and a first aid kit for bleeding. 

I was out of the country about 2 years ago when Havoc had a bloating episode. My hubby recognized it, called the vet, service siad he was out of town please call vet XXXX. Hubby called vet XXX. NEVER got a return call despite telling them he suspected bloat.He called me on the other side of the world yelling WHAT DO I DO???? I told him get GAs X in and drive to Tulsa. By the time he got there the GAs X had worked and no bloat. But better to drive 3.5 hours round trip than risk losing the dog. 

Lydi, the pup was about 20 weeks old and drank a huge amount of water and swelled like a balloon and was very uncofortable. I did not realize how much water she drank and immediately thought bloat. Called our wonderful vet on Sunday morning and got the service. Explained very carefully that I thought maybe the pup was bloating. Said if the pup is bloating this is a life and death emergency and I needed to talk to the vst ASAP. Even splled bloating. 15 minutes go by and no call. Finally my phone rings and it is the vet. He asked me to please describe what was going on. I did. He said bloat in pups is rare but he thought maybe she drank too much. Said he was at the clinic and would be for a few hours and we should get thier fast if her belly was still distended in 10 minutes. It was already going down anyway. But the sad thing here is that the vet was at the clinic, heard the call come in adn the service got it. He never got called by tehm so he called them to see what the problem was. The service told him some lady said her puppy had a boing. They thought it was a prank so did not call him. I SPELLED THE WORD FOR THEM!!! The vet was hot. Thankfully it turned out Lydi tanked on water.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

I understand that reading the written word can be taken different ways. That being said, I am not suggesting the OP - or anyone - attempt to 'treat' their own pets for anything.

All I WAS suggesting, is the value of learning some first aide. Like one would learn CPR on humans. No, it can't be used every time with success. And I brought up the breeder info because so many are saying this treatment should only come from a vet. That would be like saying only MD or RN could perform CPR.

Ideally - yes - you want / expect your vet to intervene. But many emergencies don't wait for a 'convenient' time to happen.

I'm not telling ANYONE what to do. I'm SUGGESTING that dog owners at least "think" about learning emergency procedures, that's all. In my case, I know I was lucky. Because it worked. We still rushed him to the vet, but we now had a few minutes to spare.

And BTW - by the time this nimrod vet took x-rays (which he clearly did not know how to read - Good Lord - & this ineptness is what was hired to handle emergencies!  ) - the "probable" gastric air had moved into the intestines. Which, in turn, 'probably' caused the mesenteric torsion. (The air came from somewhere & it didn't come thru the skin!) 

I - like the OP - would be mad as hades, too. Because surgical odds are much higher today than in years past. But this vet did nothing. Worse, he sent them away. I can't say here what I'd like to see done to this vet...

BTW x 2 - no comparison whatsoever, grandma, to someone doing their own ear crops at home (WTH?). I was talking about EMERGENCY first aide, not a home-done show crop on ears...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I am very sorry to hear your of your loss. Please be aware that your story will stick in the minds of hundreds of dog owners. Your sad loss might help an owner fight for the correct health care of their beloved pet. 

I truly hope your wife is feeling less pain with each passing day.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Olivers mama said:


> I understand that reading the written word can be taken different ways. That being said, I am not suggesting the OP - or anyone - attempt to 'treat' their own pets for anything.
> 
> All I WAS suggesting, is the value of learning some first aide. Like one would learn CPR on humans. No, it can't be used every time with success. And I brought up the breeder info because so many are saying this treatment should only come from a vet. That would be like saying only MD or RN could perform CPR.
> 
> ...


I'm not against GSD owners getting proper education on emergency intubation for stomach bloat (as long as they're also trained to recognize the difference between stomach bloat (with or without torsion) and other conditions such as mesenteric torsion which not everyone can do since mesenteric torsion is extremely difficult to diagnose (air in the intestines alone is not enough to diagnose it, but is definitely an indication that exploratory surgery should be a high priority of consideration). 

The only problem I had was that you said that the pup may not have died if he had been intubated him for stomach bloat which he didn't have "*What if the OP's breeder had thought enough of his sales that he/she insisted - as did my Setter breeder - that I learn about Bloat & have a kit on hand. PERHAPS the pup could have been saved & the OP wouldn't have had to deal with ignorant vets & now legal action. Plus, they might still have their pup.*" 

Anyway, there's no evidence that I've found that says stomach gas causes mesenteric torsion ... but have read that gas fomred in the colon has caused it in pigs so I assume this can happen to other creatures including dogs and man.

This is from WebDVM: "*The underlying cause for mesenteric torsion is any condition that that irritates the bowel, such as infections diseases of the gut (parvo, coronovirus, foreign body obstructions, inflammatory bowel disease, intestinal parasites, etc.) It is believed by some that allowing too much activity following a big meal can be a predisposing factor. In my own experience, this has seemed to play a role in some cases of mesenteric torsion. It happens most commonly in young dogs less than one year of age, and must be considered as a possibility in any puppy presenting vomiting with abdominal pain.* "
Welcome to Web DVM: The Web's Best Source For Canine/Feline Advice And Health Information - Mesenteric Torsion

This is an interesting link about what sounds like mesenteric torsion (there are a couple messages):
Leerburg | Q&A on Dogs with Torsion or Bloat

As I mentioned earlier, my JR was one of the lucky survivors of mesenteric torsion. But something happened to Bruiser when he was about 3 months old that compares the difference between a good vet and one like the other person had. 

One Saturday morning Bruiser was vomiting white foam which is my cue to get a dog to the vet as soon as possible. I couldn't get him up to Micanopy to my regular vet, so I went to a local one here in Ocala that I'd used before. 

They did x-rays and an ultra-sound, knew his intestines were filled with gas, but couldn't figure out why. He was vomiting, in pain, so they did exploratory surgery on him and couldn't find any blockage, obstruction or torsion that could be causing the gas in his intestines. This happened a couple more times during his hospitalization ... gas in the intestines, vomiting, etc and they couldn't figure out why. This resulted in a couple more exploratory surgeries to ensure there wasn't an obstruction, torsion or blockage, each time finding nothing wrong except his intestines were blown up like a balloon. He had a barrel full of tests, nothing unusual was found (there were some skewed results, but nothing definite). For a week every time I called to check on him I didn't know if they'd tell me that my puppy had died or not. The vet was stumped as to what was wrong with him and was treating him for viral (or maybe it was bacterial) gastritis. He slowly got well and celebrated his 7th birthday this past April. To this day no one knows what was wrong with him.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Oliver's mom, I DID NOT SAY I did them at home, I stated my vet anesthetized them, I did the crop how I wanted. I could crop my own ears, the vet would anesthize the pup and I would do the show cut I wanted. The vet did not like doing crops. 
Um, nowhere does it state I did show crops at HOME................ 
Please make sure what you read before you comment and put your (WTH) in your comments.
What I was saying was just because one person knows how to do something, whether emergency or any pet care, doesn't make it the way to go for everyone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL, when I told my mom that I watched the C-section on one of my girls, my mom said, "well, you could do that at home then." Uhg! NO! I could NOT do that at home!!! 

Now would I scissor off dew claws? Maybe not the first time. But yeah, I would do that at home. Why? Because it is much safer than taking the newborns in to the vet's clinic. 

I would be terrified of the bloat-tube thingy before I tube fed puppies. Not saying I would do that rather than rush a dog to the vet. But the nearest vet is 45 minutes away, and if I saw a stomach expanding and the dog in distress, and I felt it was that or the dog was going to die anyway, well, I think I might try it if I had the proper materials, and had at least some understanding of the procedure. I don't.


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## fiddle (Oct 17, 2012)

We have now submitted in writing, a formal complaint to the Vet board along with all supporting documents. As a very first step, I'm very interested to see what happens ...

We are poised well for the full on assault, but need to follow a process as hard as it is.

Thanks again for everyone's comments.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

fiddle said:


> We have now submitted in writing, a formal complaint to the Vet board along with all supporting documents. As a very first step, I'm very interested to see what happens ...
> 
> We are poised well for the full on assault, but need to follow a process as hard as it is.
> 
> Thanks again for everyone's comments.


G00D LUCK ... hope they'll do something!!!


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## dbrk9 (Aug 9, 2012)

fiddle said:


> We have now submitted in writing, a formal complaint to the Vet board along with all supporting documents. As a very first step, I'm very interested to see what happens ...
> 
> We are poised well for the full on assault, but need to follow a process as hard as it is.
> 
> Thanks again for everyone's comments.


I am so sorry for your loss! In the past 6 months I have taken two dogs to the vet on an emergency visit. One thing I notice, is how slow they are to treat the symptoms. Unlike horses, where when you make an emergency call the first thing the vet does is treat the horse by the symptoms. We would have had many dead horses if they treated horses like they do dogs. A horse can turn so fast that if we waited on test results, then put them on the required meds.....well you get the point. Just recently one of my dogs and I sat in the waiting office, while the staff discussed estimate with a tally of tests that they wanted to run and payment. My dog was on the floor. I brought the dog in with a high fever of 105! Luckily, the ice bath at home had dropped it a bit but what the heck were they thinking. The whole reason I brought her in was so she could have meds to lower that fever! Ugh...

Again, I am so sorry for your loss having lost another dog within the year with sluggish veterinary practice and emergency service, I can feel your pain. My other dog suffered 60 days, finally when the vet said that I was right he needed to go on pred it was one pill too late. He died within a few minutes in my arms after he got what he needed on that first visit. They ran all kinds of tests and even let him go home with a full bladder on more than one occasion! I said, "doesn't he need the catheter?" They said, "oh...yeah we can do that if you want" He was 12.5 years old and couldn't relieve himself due to inflammation, duh, he needed prednisolone on that very first visit! I am positive he would be here today he was a very healthy and active dog. After they insisted on tests that ALL came out negative!!! And scaring me with the thought that he might have cancer! He could have been saved. 

I would like to find an in home vet that operates more like a horse vet, treats the symptoms because time is all we have when it comes to emergencies.

Take care, hugs


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