# Hardness, Civil, Aggression, and Protection Drives in West German Working Lines?



## gilariversun

Basic question - which West German working lines are best known for producing hard protection drives with high levels of civil drives and aggression? I have heard Yoshy/Rocky through Troll are good choices, as is the Tom/Orry line. What are your experiences?


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## suze

Hi G

Your post may actually answer a question i posted today, i have just joined today actually.

It s in th e breeding thread i think about companion / working lines in GSD's

I will be getting a GSD possibly in a few months, havent had one for 20 plus years.

I was under the impression that 
A: 
There were lines better suited as work lines, with high drive for guard work , Police , Army etc.

B:
Then there are lines bred specifically more suitable as companion animals. 

But today i was told, no thats not right, they are all essentially capable to be trained up to work.

So, im now a bit confused, as i really will be looking for a pretty low drive laid back Dog, **lacking the drive that i would have thought working dogs would possess in **greater concentation, can you enlighten me

Thanks


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

best answer, "Look at the relatives." If you have good lines the family tree will show it, most good breeders can articulate which dogs in their lines were/are, 1. Schutzhund champions, 2. police dogs, 3. best tracking dogs, etc


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## wolfstraum

West German working lines are currently known for high prey drive above all other - bred for sport dogs (just my opinion, of course  ) 

Good companion dogs can be born in every litter if the breeder wants balance in drives, good nerves, social and environmental nerve stability. Certain lines known for "aggressiveness", particularly when linebred, sometimes end up with litters which have not been bred to be balanced out with good S &E nerves, and are overloaded with prey....not only WGR working, but other European subgroups as well.....

I would not consider Tom Leefdalhof a source of aggression. Yoshey - yes, Crok yes, and Asko as well....but these males CAN be and have been balanced out if judiciously bred with carefully chosen pairs for the most part. Appropriate social (civil) aggression is a component of correct temperament. But so are intelligence, a discerning ability to recognize a threat and loyalty.

Lee


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## Smithie86

The last few breedings we have done were to West German lines. But, it also depends on what you breed to (dog), what they are producing and the dam. And both breedings were planned way in advanced, based on what we had seen from both lines on the field, owned or worked by others that we know.

We got very strong agression, high hunt drive, possession/ball drive, grips, etc. But balanced with the ability to be around people. But these litters are very strong working and we took time placing in experienced homes.


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## cliffson1

Ditto what Wolfstraum says!!


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## gilariversun

Yoshi, Crock, Asko - this is exactly the information I was hoping for. Very specific animals known to produce these specific qualities. Any other recommendations?


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## wolfstraum

Have used males both with Yoshey and Crok.............the Yoshey son was balanced with a very very very stable (S&E) female who had fantastic hunt drive - pup should have gone to a SAR home - but instead lives in a multi-dog household and is super competitive in Agility (going for MACH???? whatever!) and AKC obedience....owner keep saying they need to do AKC tracking with her....

The litter carrying Crok is due in a few weeks....the dam's 3/4 sister had a litter to the same male and they are super stable, great S&E nerves, and in homes with high level competition goals....on THAT basis (the actual pups because I have seen them!!) I went ahead and bred Hexe to Chuck who carries Crok....we shall see....both Axel and Ava are good in the house, and so I expect the same from my 7/8 siblings.

I would NOT however, do breedings with these lines without careful consideration of the parent's temperaments, previous offspring etc.

Lee


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## cassadee7

What does "civil" mean in this context?


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## wolfstraum

cassadee7 said:


> What does "civil" mean in this context?



a real life situation (or set up situation) where aggression towards a threat is needed....dogs like this often called "real" - 

And these dogs can be stable family dogs too.

Lee


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## cassadee7

I see, okay, thank you! And I assume that would be a "correct" trait of a GSD.


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## wolfstraum

Yes - it is. Unfortunately, it is rare. And a "civil" dog should not be a crazy, aggressive dog who everyone should be afraid of either.

Lee


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## Smithie86

Our retired civil dog Enzo does tracking with our daughter. She is not training dogs; she likes tracking with her father on Sundays and tracks Enzo and Quasi.

We were at the SE Regionals this weekend. Very good, strong, agile, experience young helpers. Took Quasi out after the flights were done to do a little bite work - ran through the SCH3 routine. Helpers really liked him and were shocked to see Quasi walk over to Cara right after trying to take the helper down and snuggle against her.


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## holland

That is so cool that Cara tracks with her Dad


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## Vandal

The sorry thing said in this thread is the idea that people in SchH would be shocked by a dog who is friendly with a child in his own family.

What is shocking is that Lee bred to a dog with Crok in the pedigree. Holy cow. 

What was already said here is the case. It is who you breed to what. I have Crok in my bloodlines. Am I here fighting for my life because they are trying to attack me? No, they are absolutely stable. I sure have never looked at one dog in a pedigree and made such a huge stink as some have made about Crok. Would I double up closely or breed excessively on that line? No, I would not but not because I feared handler aggression. I feel that way about a number of bloodlines actually. There are things I see there that I think need to be adjusted through the use of other bloodlines . Handler aggression is simply a symptom that requires certain other factors to fall into place IMO.

Each one of those dogs mentioned in this thread produces something a tad different regarding aggression. Meaning, it is not simply aggression but a case of thresholds. The Yoschy line I have seen a lower threshold for aggression and lots of drive at the same time. I saw the origins of that some generations back in the dogs I worked years ago...namely dogs coming thru Elke von der Hardter Höhe ,which is the same breeding as Sagus v. Busecker Schloss, where I saw it in his sons. Helmut said things about the training of Sagus as well. Same with some of what is behind Asko. I worked dogs in that line as well and saw things I did not much care for. It is still there in those lines, so, who those dogs are bred to REALLY matters. However, the kind of dogs they need are becoming much harder to find as more people breed for SchH competition. 

This is what I have complained about in the breeding of SchH dogs where people are combining lines to create a "look" . This is not really GSD breeding, it is breeding for trophies, just like the show people, only different venue.

Many of these dogs are a bit too easy to reach with drive that can be difficult to channel. When you have that together, you have a dog who is harder to work with and doesn't simply require people with SchH "experience", it requires someone who actually understands dogs. There are not many of those types left doing SchH and the ones who do understand GSDs, don't want those kinds of dogs.

The Tom line I used shows a higher threshold for aggression without the excess drive but that depends who the line is bred to. Don't kid yourself though, there is aggression there, just doesn't make itself known unless you have a situation or helper that calls for it. Not many people in SchH know how to work with those kinds of dogs any longer, so, I can see why some would say it is not there. 

As for Crok, if I had to look at all my dogs and the lines I have worked and used for breeding over the years, this is not a line I would "build on". There are other, old and modern lines I feel the same way about for differing reasons. I have done some breedings to adjust what I see in the Crok line but again, it isn't handler aggression. I have never in my life bred and raised a dog who wanted to bite me, no matter what pressure I placed on the dog. I have owned some very strong lines but never once experienced that phenomenon. There is something in the handling that brings this out and I can certainly see why a dog would want to bite many of the people out there "training" them. However, there is also something else going on that people are simply not recognizing. 

What I have seen in handler aggressive dogs is a certain "tension" in the dogs. This is a nerve issue IMO but people seem to get so caught up in the idea that the dogs will bite, either through prey or aggression, they overlook what else is going on during protection work. This has become more common in SchH now where people are getting aggression by breeding dogs with lesser nerves and lower thresholds. It is easier to get the flash , ( that makes the dog "look" like a good protection and obedience dog), by breeding this way. You can see the nerves and this tension in the protection work. You see it when you pressure the dogs. SchH training mostly avoids this pressure now, so, people do not recognize what I am talking about and the judges are not mentioning it much either. If they do, it is said in a way that most do not understand. It is a rather dangerous situation if you ask me because SchH is being presented as the test of all tests. Also, if people think a helper running and waving a padded stick is pressure, they really have lots to learn about dogs. 

You can also see it in the way the dog carries himself in the other phases. It can show when you observe how dogs deal with corrections. Doesn't have to be a case where the dog bites the handler. What I see in these types of dogs is a level of panic when they think a correction is coming. People see that and will excuse it as a dog who is "biddable" or "sensitive" and doesn't need a correction. Nothing wrong with some sensitivity but if you breed that into weakness in the other areas, you could have a big problem on your hands. Think about what I am saying here. Again, it does not have to be a case where that dog will bite you but if you breed it to a dog with a similar response, it could certainly happen in the next generation.
Now consider just how much "motivational" training goes on in SchH obedience nowadays. People are not much seeing how well their dog handles a correction anymore. Used to be we looked to see how well a dog could channel a correction. Did he become more determined to do the work or channel a correction in protection work into aggression toward the helper? They should. Others, like we see much more of now, ( and I saw in the lines I mentioned above), get rattled, hectic, frantic and sort of lash out in too many directions they shouldn't and that includes biting the handler. If what I am saying is not clear, feel free to ask and I will explain it some more.
The beginnings of this you can see in far more subtle ways. All of those things were talked about in the SchH critiques years ago , ( and still are by some judges), but many people did not make the connection of where those behaviors mentioned could lead, when those dogs were bred. Fewer still seem to be looking or making the connections nowadays.

People are claiming they "know" their dogs because they do SchH. I will simply say, not where I live and I know it is the same elsewhere. People tell me all about how great their dog is and all about the "super bloodlines". Then I work the dog and see all the "cracks" that I did not see as often in the dogs I worked some years ago. ...even the show lines back then handled pressure better than some of the working lines do now.


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## holland

If you were referring to my post-I am not shocked that a Sch dog is friendly with a child-just think its cool that she is tracking with her Dad-my comment had nothing to do with the dog really


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## pets4life

i thought tom was a good producer of police dogs? well i just know of one that he sired not sure about others another gentlemen breeder told me he has produced some hard police dogs but i only personally saw a ped for 1 never tried to look though


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## wolfstraum

LOL Anne, yes - I have bred a female to a male carrying Crok! I knew someone would pick up on that LOL

I did not breed to him BECAUSE he was a National winner, or a 2x World team dog....I did not breed to him because of his pedigree - actually in spite of it... I looked at the dog himself - and the pups he produced. I spent time with the dog at trials and shows where he was with his owner. I have seen the dog with his owner's 3+ year old daughter. I had the dog on a leash and I did obedience with him - and most importantly - I have seen pups from him with a 3/4 sister to the female bred to him. These pups have been seen out and about by people who are experienced and for whom I have respect and been evaluated very positively. 

And, LOL, I bred to a Yoshey son as well.........

I also agree that you can have aggression with Tom in the pedigree - only that he is not KNOWN for producing it in general....and as always - the whole pedigree is important. There were pups in all three of my litters from Tom sons who when asked did show appropriate aggression.

And while I do like a biddable, trainable dog, and have used clicker and positive methods, I have also worked n in situations where compulsion has been appropriate or has been recommended /done (Roland Siebel seminar for example) and Csabre (and same with Kyra before her with T Floyd) received high praise for her resilience and tenacity under pressure....eek...not outing the ball....LOL was NOT acceptable - so I do understand what you are saying....and have seen it as well - the all prey thin nerved sport dogs - 

Lee


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## Smithie86

holland said:


> That is so cool that Cara tracks with her Dad


 
She is not into major training with the dogs. She likes spending time with her father, laying tracks and running the tracks (has done both with Enzo and Quasi). She understands the training and what the judge is looking for, to a certain extent. 

If you are at the AWDF, she will be at the front booth, selling raffle tickets and probably trying to work Jim Hill's booth.....


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## BlackthornGSD

Vandal said:


> What I have seen in handler aggressive dogs is a certain "tension" in the dogs. This is a nerve issue IMO but people seem to get so caught up in the idea that the dogs will bite, either through prey or aggression, they overlook what else is going on during protection work. This has become more common in SchH now where people are getting aggression by breeding dogs with lesser nerves and lower thresholds. It is easier to get the flash , ( that makes the dog "look" like a good protection and obedience dog), by breeding this way. You can see the nerves and this tension in the protection work. You see it when you pressure the dogs. SchH training mostly avoids this pressure now, so, people do not recognize what I am talking about and the judges are not mentioning it much either. If they do, it is said in a way that most do not understand.


If I am understanding what you're saying, this is what I saw in the Yoschy/Nick (often 2-3 on Yoschy) dogs I saw becoming common about 10 years ago. Sort of a hectic prey aggression. I don't know if it is still coming through in those lines or if I was just seeing some particular bad examples.


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## BlackthornGSD

Sid vh Gremm -- high, high pain thresholds, not super bright

V Fax vom Haus Bernhart-Mader -- high aggression, high hardness, especially through his sons Arry/Anton v Pendelbach
Did this come down through his son Pax van't Leefdaalhof to Tom?

I think Troll/Tino v Koerbelbach also brought nice hardness; I tend to think of Peko Haus dogs bringing hardness--but not as much aggression--more fight drive than aggression?

The Karlo Peko Haus son, Pike von der Schafbachmühle -- for a while there were rumors about his progeny being a bit crazy--but he was known for intense fight drive, intense prey; his kids tended to hit like bullets on the long bite. I know one of his daughters who when bred just wanted to kill her puppies--so she was never bred again.

Do these descriptions jive? What German lines would you go to for hardness? 

I think, too, there's really two types of hardness that don't always go hand-in-hand. One is high pain thresholds--the dogs just don't feel that much pain. My Sid vh Gremm daughter was like that--when injured (she cut her foot open on some bad kennel wire), she was totally impervious--very insensitive to pain. (What's more, she healed freakishly fast--like she would heal in 2 days what most dogs would heal in 6.)

The other type of hardness is better described as "resiliency" -- these are dogs who may or may not be somewhat pain sensitive, but they don't shut down, they don't give up, and they just keep working and stay in drive. This is the type of hardness I saw from Nessel--somewhat handler sensitive, but never shut down.


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## cliffson1

Zorro Lager-Wall, Tom z PS, and his father Cordon au Sat, Gero and Omar Blatensheko Zamu, are Czech/DDR dogs that are known for throwing good aggression.


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## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> Zorro Lager-Wall, Tom z PS, and his father Cordon au Sat, Gero and Omar Blatensheko Zamu, are Czech/DDR dogs that are known for throwing good aggression.


I feel like I've seen higher prey drive come down through Zorro than is typical for many other DDR dogs, too. Or is that more likely coming from other dogs in the ancestry?


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## carmspack

right Cliff , but they are not west German. Zorro was said to be anti social. I would add Lewis Malatesta , Mink Wittfeld. there are others but am distracted by things I need to attend to
Carmen


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## carmspack

Gento Larwin


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## holland

Smithie86 said:


> She is not into major training with the dogs. She likes spending time with her father, laying tracks and running the tracks (has done both with Enzo and Quasi). She understands the training and what the judge is looking for, to a certain extent.
> 
> If you are at the AWDF, she will be at the front booth, selling raffle tickets and probably trying to work Jim Hill's booth.....


 
I won't be at the AWDF-if I was I would definitely stop by the booth-hope she has a good time!


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## lhczth

The Mink dogs coming through the J litter Lindenhalle (more so Jalk and Jenni than Jago), Iko Lindenhalle and also Arko Parkstraße have a lot of hardness and resilience. My Arko daughter didn't have the aggression that my dogs coming through Jenni and Iko do, but she was extremely resilient and had a ton of heart (which I attribute to Grischa Schwarzen Milan). All of my dogs coming from Mink have had a lot of fight drive too. 

I agree with Christine about the T little Körbelbach bringing hardness. Also, if you go back far enough, Matsch Bungalow and Ira Körbelbach (the dam of Arek Stoffelblick) for bringing aggression. Some of the hardest (pain resistant and resilient) dogs I have owned went back on the Körbelbachs.


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## doggiedad

what are you looking for in a WGWL??? you can train
train a GSD to be whatever you want it to be.



gilariversun said:


> Basic question - which West German working lines are best known for producing hard protection drives with high levels of civil drives and aggression? I have heard Yoshy/Rocky through Troll are good choices, as is the Tom/Orry line. What are your experiences?


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## gilariversun

doggiedad said:


> what are you looking for in a WGWL??? you can train
> train a GSD to be whatever you want it to be.


What an informative discussion from folks obviously extremely experienced in the subject matter at hand. I thank all of you for your replies thus far and hope it will continue for some time.

To answer your question of what I am looking for - it would be - education. Pure and simple. I know many lines will take Schutzhund titles, but are not serious real dogs. These are referred to as prey drive dogs above. I know also that a few lines may or may not be well represented on a competition level, but are known to produce very serious dogs. 

Yet I for one do not know with assurance which line is which.

I read many posts about Czech/DDR dogs having this - Gero, Grim, Zorro, Peko Haus, and so forth. That is good information also.

But what I am more curious about is dogs with a higher level of availability. WGR lines. Dogs currently living would be great. Dogs that would be found in a 5 generation pedigree of equal interest. Dogs that are 50 years in the past - not so much. More current than that, if that makes sense.

So that said - I will step back again - and listen with great interest at the replies on this thread.

And again I thank all of you for sharing your experiences with me concerning my question.


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## cliffson1

DUH!!! Thanks Carmen, the OP did specify WGWL. LOL I would also echo the J litter linenhalle. Jalk was reputed to be a very very very tough dude! Also, Gento is a good choice as someone said. I have seen good aggression out Grischa Schwarzen Milan...but other issues have to be considered. Also without a doubt, some of the Leiperheim Moor dogs. Grappo who was owned by T- Floyd and his brother were very very strong dogs.


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## Vandal

> Do these descriptions jive? What German lines would you go to for hardness?
> 
> I think, too, there's really two types of hardness that don't always go hand-in-hand. One is high pain thresholds--the dogs just don't feel that much pain. My Sid vh Gremm daughter was like that--when injured (she cut her foot open on some bad kennel wire), she was totally impervious--very insensitive to pain. (What's more, she healed freakishly fast--like she would heal in 2 days what most dogs would heal in 6.)
> 
> The other type of hardness is better described as "resiliency" -- these are dogs who may or may not be somewhat pain sensitive, but they don't shut down, they don't give up, and they just keep working and stay in drive. This is the type of hardness I saw from Nessel--somewhat handler sensitive, but never shut down.


I am not trying to give the impression that I know where everything from every line comes from. I usually stick to what I have seen and worked. I have to have seen it repeatedly before I will credit a line for producing anything. I have seen what you are talking about with the Yoschy line but that tension I was referring to does not have to be associated with what you talked about IMO . Depends on the dog but I have noticed some rather subtle, ( and not so subtle), behaviors associated with handler aggression.

The Tom son I owned, Jabina Haig, was exceptionally hard and had a grip that wouldn't shift if you dropped an anvil on his head. Did it come from Pax? From what you have said, sounds like a possibility. I do not have pups from him that are as hard as he was to corrections, so, with the breedings I did, that was not passed on. That hardness to correction is something I am not particularly fond of. I have seen it in show lines some years back. Also some of the Korbelbach dogs . IMO, especially with the Korbelbackh dogs, it is not just a case of hardness, they seemed to be missing the desire to work with their handlers.

Dogs I have seen and worked with that second version of hardness you described were from lines with Valet v. Busecker Schloss, Ajax Haus Dexel, B litter Lierbergs , Anderl vom kleinen Pfahl , Frei Gugge and most especially Enno v. Beilstein . Yep, some of them from 50 years ago, although I still have pedigrees with those dogs within the 5 generation pedigree and all of them in the sixth generation of some of my dogs There was a level of toughness in those dogs but there was also that genetic ability and obedience where they so much wanted to do the work, they could recover from corrections, in order to continue doing just that. I think that is difficult for people to understand nowadays. People think you have to have a ball and build, build, build that prey drive for a dog to want to keep working. That was not the case with those dogs. Again, it was not simply hardness, it was the genetic desire to work for the person that kept those dogs going. The desire and attentiveness to the handler was genetic. They always seemed to be listening even when high in drive. They talk about attentiveness in SchH obedience and the dogs "should" be showing that same ability and willingness to hear and comply with the handler in protection. Nowadays, the dogs are paying more attention to the ball in the arm pit, and people are carefully building behaviors. The dogs are not actually displaying that genetic attentiveness to the handler. We train dogs now that are harder to control and control is a huge part of protection work. It is absolutely necessary and the dog should have that ability coming thru his genetics, not through the use of electricity. 

I remember having a conversation with an older SV Judge. His name was Rudy Bohmer. Had done SchH for almost 50 years and had worked many of the very famous dogs, including Betty Bonsdorf, Seffe Busecker Schloss etc. He looked at a pedigree I had with Pike in it and said the kennel name...then did the little circle thing with his finger by his temple. Crazy is what he was saying. So, there is another comment about that from more than one source. I knew what he meant because I have seen it too. 
I think lots of old timers think some of the dogs now are a bit screwy and when you watch them and they way they do things and then compare them to the old dogs, yeah....I can agree with that. They are harder to control and less attentive to the handler.

What I was saying in that post is that the critiques in SchH mention a number of items that can indicate there is some weakness in the dog that can lead to problems. I am not saying a judge would say this dog or that dog could be handler aggressive. I am just saying there are things dogs do that make you start to picture where the wrong breeding could take things. Some of the things I am talking about include what I just said about the true meaning of willingness and attentiveness but also how the dog performs in other areas like protection work. Mostly, how they deal with stress and pressure. We used to look for composure in the dog and the ability to be able to keep thinking, keep hearing the handler and to keep complying with the handler. Again, they were looking for the genetics, not the training. 
Lots of what SchH was and to a lesser degree still could be, says something about the dogs and their temperament but people do not appear to be listening. Seems like many ignore those comments and have forgotten the purpose of the critiques, which were meant to inform for breeding purposes. Seems that now, people just take the comments and go back and try to train it in or out of the dog and then just breed to another titled dog. 

The pedigree idea is ok to a point but I have seen dogs with "good" pedigrees" that I would not touch with a ten foot pole as far as breeding goes. Hence my comments about seeing the dogs . However, when people go to look, they kind of need to know what they are looking at and what SchH was really supposed to be showing them. More and more, people do not seem to know what that is.


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## Smithie86

I will echo what Anne states about the H Jabina litter - having seen 3 from there, showing what Anne described (including a female)


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## Vandal

One interesting thing about Haig was this. If he had a ball and you wanted him to drop it, how you said it made all the difference in whether or not he would let go. If you were quiet and simply said the word "out", he would let go immediately. If you raised your voice, forget it, he was hanging on. Nelli Rascko owned his mother and she told me that is exactly what his mother was like. When I first got Haig, it was like correcting an oak tree the first time I worked him. I realized it was too early for me to be working him and waited a while to do it again. When I did work him again, I used the same approach for the out in protection and the same thing happened, he let go. I was told I would have to use an e-collar to get control and while I never trialed the dog, I found it was not really necessary to use that level of correction if I controlled my voice.

I can certainly see how that behavior allowed that dog to look the way he did in protection. He was quite impressive and the more fight from the helper, the harder the bite and the more determined he became. A good trait in one sense but probably not a dog I would look for a partner to add more of.


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## BlackthornGSD

gilariversun said:


> I read many posts about Czech/DDR dogs having this - Gero, Grim, Zorro, Peko Haus, and so forth. That is good information also.
> 
> But what I am more curious about is dogs with a higher level of availability. WGR lines. Dogs currently living would be great. Dogs that would be found in a 5 generation pedigree of equal interest. Dogs that are 50 years in the past - not so much. More current than that, if that makes sense.
> .


All the dogs I mentioned were German working line dogs who have lived in the past 30 years--some are more recent than others.1 

Peko Haus is a German working line kennel--not Czech or DDR.

I was going to add that I've heard that the Cap Arkona and Haus Pixner dogs are dogs to breed to currently to bring in hardness, although I haven't seen them work myself (although I do know a really nice, confident Cap Arkona bitch who I'd buy in a second if she were available....)

V Sid vom Haus Pixner




{I am trying train myself not to say "West German" working lines, because really, there is no country called "West Germany" and hasn't been for 20+ years and the dogs in the eastern part of the nation of Germany are essentially the same dogs as those from the western part of the nation...}


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## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> DUH!!! Thanks Carmen, the OP did specify WGWL. LOL I would also echo the J litter linenhalle. Jalk was reputed to be a very very very tough dude! Also, Gento is a good choice as someone said. I have seen good aggression out Grischa Schwarzen Milan...but other issues have to be considered. Also without a doubt, some of the Leiperheim Moor dogs. Grappo who was owned by T- Floyd and his brother were very very strong dogs.


Grappo was a hard dog, I agree on that. He goes back to both Crok and Grischa, interestingly enough.

Grappo vom Leipheimer Moor - German shepherd dog


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## onyx'girl

I have a great, great grandson of Karlo vom Peko Haus. Great grandson of Pike. He is the most biddable dog, and shows his bravery as well....very balanced.


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## BlackthornGSD

onyx'girl said:


> I have a great, great grandson of Karlo vom Peko Haus. Great grandson of Pike. He is the most biddable dog, and shows his bravery as well....very balanced.


I'd say that that means his breeder did a good job of balancing out Pike's tendencies toward the extreme.


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## TechieDog

Can you guys clarify your classification of Tom Leefdalhof progeny in general terms? I am a little confused by what I have read here. I was under the impression tha Tom lines tend to produce appropriate aggression and civil drive.

I have actually been trying to educate myself on this too as I am considering a pup from a Tom Leefdalhof son (or grandson) versus going more over to Czech lines. This pup would be for SchH.


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## cliffson1

Chris, I'm going to a Bernard Flinks seminar with my 13 month Sid vh Pixner son....gives me a chance to see if I have assessed him right or if I'm off base...lol....He's not perfect...but I think he will represent.


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## Catu

lhczth said:


> I agree with Christine about the T little Körbelbach bringing hardness. Also, if you go back far enough, Matsch Bungalow and Ira Körbelbach (the dam of Arek Stoffelblick) for bringing aggression. Some of the hardest (pain resistant and resilient) dogs I have owned went back on the Körbelbachs.


Who was Arek? 
Akela has him on his pedigree through his sire.
He also has Yoschi, who has been mentioned in this thread.



onyx'girl said:


> I have a great, great grandson of Karlo vom Peko Haus. Great grandson of Pike. He is the most biddable dog, and shows his bravery as well....very balanced.


My pup has Pike 5 generations back too. Time will tell how he will be


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## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> Chris, I'm going to a Bernard Flinks seminar with my 13 month Sid vh Pixner son....gives me a chance to see if I have assessed him right or if I'm off base...lol....He's not perfect...but I think he will represent.


Cliff--are you going to be there this weekend? I'll be auditing on Sat/Sun.


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## pets4life

would 
*SG Honza Okal fit in there as well?
*


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## pets4life

TechieDog said:


> Can you guys clarify your classification of Tom Leefdalhof progeny in general terms? I am a little confused by what I have read here. I was under the impression tha Tom lines tend to produce appropriate aggression and civil drive.
> 
> I have actually been trying to educate myself on this too as I am considering a pup from a Tom Leefdalhof son (or grandson) versus going more over to Czech lines. This pup would be for SchH.


i hear mixed things about tom also some say he would have made a great police dog and produces them but some say he had no serious side so i do not know either. I was very curious to know about him as well also  He is a stunning dog!

from what i gathered from vandals post tom had that edge in him but you didnt see it that fast as you would see it in other dogs like cordon ann sat for example.


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## Vandal

Some of the Haig sons, ( Tom grandsons), that came here to train didn't look serious. They were worked by SchH people who just kind of played with them. Once they saw someone who meant business, they were all business as well. One of them was rather confused by this idea of protection being play which for me, is an indicator of a good dog. Once the helper work tapped into that side, he was pretty impressive and very serious. Young dog who needed more work with the right helper but I thought he had great promise. Lived too far away for me to be able to work him. 
New helper worked him one day and decided to try out the presence thing. Stared at the dog and when the dog responded with some very serious barks, the helper showed MORE aggression and leaned over the dog like a vulture glaring and hissing at him. He didn't respect what the dog was showing him, so, the dog went for his face. Once his nose was almost removed, he was then so frightened he didn't know what to do. The handler was as well so she decided to work her other dog, who would simply bump the sleeve instead. Of course, there were other dogs in that pedigree as well but I have not seen , ( or worked), dogs from that line that didn't have aggression, just not noticible until it is asked for.


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## Vandal

> I have a great, great grandson of Karlo vom Peko Haus. Great grandson of Pike. He is the most biddable dog, and shows his bravery as well....very balanced.


 
I think it would be safe to call what comes thru Pike a "drive line". Doesn't have to be a bad thing but sometimes, there is more drive coming out than you might have planned on. That's when the term crazy becomes an appropriate definition. :help:

I have Pike in some of my dogs along with Yoschy. A couple of my most stable, somewhat ideal dogs as far as being a GSD, have Pike, Yoschy and Crok in the same pedigree...and then there are the rest of the dogs in that same pedigree. Christine already made that point, just thought I would say it again.

As far as I am concerned , this is not about putting down certain bloodlines, it is simply a discussion.


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## BlackthornGSD

Vandal said:


> As far as I am concerned , this is not about putting down certain bloodlines, it is simply a discussion.


Yes. Thanks for stating it so clearly.

I think a good analogy is that breeding dogs can be a lot like cooking. You need a lot of different spices to get a good flavor, and even if an "ingredient" isn't something that is your favorite, it can be an important element to putting together something excellent. And too much of any one spice is usually going to cause a problem.


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## cliffson1

Yes Chris, I will be there this weekend. I have only started working formally with him for about 6 weeks though I have had him from 8 weeks. When Faro went to PD six weeks ago, it was time to start on him and then the pup from Ichx coming will be in residence puppy as this one is going through High School with me from 1 year until he gets to be 2. LOL, Hope that makes sense...anyway it'll be good to see you again.


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## lhczth

> Who was Arek?


Arek Stoffelblick brought hardness, resilience, aggression and fight. Also smaller size. Go to http://www.vombanholz.be/ and click on Movie Archives then Hall of Fame and Arek is under the A's.


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## cliffson1

My male that just went to PD(Fero), was 5-5 on Arek. He was also on the small side but very nice structure and drives.


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## Mrs.K

Olko vom Baerenfang. In fact, the entire O litter was pretty darn awesome. 

And of course Gildo vom Koerbelbach.


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## Mrs.K

BlackthornGSD said:


> All the dogs I mentioned were German working line dogs who have lived in the past 30 years--some are more recent than others.1
> 
> Peko Haus is a German working line kennel--not Czech or DDR.
> 
> I was going to add that I've heard that the Cap Arkona and Haus Pixner dogs are dogs to breed to currently to bring in hardness, although I haven't seen them work myself (although I do know a really nice, confident Cap Arkona bitch who I'd buy in a second if she were available....)
> 
> V Sid vom Haus Pixner
> 
> 
> 
> *
> {I am trying train myself not to say "West German" working lines, because really, there is no country called "West Germany" and hasn't been for 20+ years and the dogs in the eastern part of the nation of Germany are essentially the same dogs as those from the western part of the nation...}*


Don't. Trust me, even in Germany we differ between West & Ostblut. You can't change that. As long as people in Germany differ between "Wessi" and "Ossi" (which we call each other)... there will also be a difference between the lines and a lot of "Ostblut Dog" people are proud of their "Ostblut" Dogs. 

As far as Cap Arkona, I was thinking about buying one of their dogs. Randegger Schloss is very nice as well and Sattelberg dogs are just awesome. They do not shut down, have a good balence of aggression and resiliency, very clear headed dogs. 

Indra impressed quite a few people at the Greg Doud Seminar. I've been following Orrys progeny and the Sattelberg dogs and quite a few are very successful. 

Enzo and Erz competet at the LGA Baden and both scored the highest points in A. 
Enzo also went to the Siebenlaender Kampf. 

Horst is breeding some pretty impressive dogs and I can see all those traits in Indra and Judge.


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## BlackthornGSD

Mrs.K said:


> Olko vom Baerenfang. In fact, the entire O litter was pretty darn awesome.
> 
> And of course Gildo vom Koerbelbach.


Did you meet Gildo? He seems to be so often found behind successful dogs, but not as commonly as, say, Fero and his children. Was wondering if there was something that kept more people from breeding to Gildo.


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## Mrs.K

BlackthornGSD said:


> Did you meet Gildo? He seems to be so often found behind successful dogs, but not as commonly as, say, Fero and his children. Was wondering if there was something that kept more people from breeding to Gildo.


 I knew Gildo very well. He used to be my fathers dog and yes, he is behind many successful dogs. The problem was that Gildo used to be badmouthed when he was alive because there were quite a few influential people jeopardizing his career since they were not happy about him being so successful.


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