# Why do some breeders not use titled females?



## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I have always heard it said that both parents should be titled when purchasing a pup from a reputable breeder. This makes intuitive sense to me. However, I have come across several breeders who are very well-regarded on this forum and by people I know who are breeding females without titles. Are there good reasons to do this? To me it looks like they are females from studs that they favor highly. 

Also, this is just based on internet research, so is it possible that these are dogs in the process of achieving titles and the information is just not up to date? It seems strange to me that a six year-old female would not have any titles listed when all the males do. Or maybe it is because the males are imported with titles in hand?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Maybe the key to that statement is "well regarded on this forum". Most any breeder I trust uses females with a minimum of IPO 1.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes it's possible the websites are not up to date. Or it's possible that there are "well regarded" breeders on this forum that aren't all they are made out to be. 

Why don't you ask the breeders directly what title are on their dogs?


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I will definitely be asking directly, I just didn't want to appear accusatory or rude if there was something I wasn't understanding correctly.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

The reason that it is done is twofold - the first reason they breed females that are not titled is because they don't have to title of female to breed them - the second reason is greed - whether it's right or wrong that's the decision of the purchaser, personally I don't want to pay $2500 for a dog.

There is no guarantee that you're going to get what you expect you're getting -titled or not elbows hips etc. it just an animal..

Two nuclear physicist's can easily have an autistic child - that's the way life is it's just not fair..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You have the choice to buy from whatever breeder...if they aren't titling their females and that is important to you, don't support them. Personally, I'd communicate with them and find out why a female they are breeding may not have titles.(if enough people question them, then go elsewhere it may encourage them to do something with their dogs!)

If I like the pedigree match, and see/like what the breeder has produced in the past, knowing they are doing it with program goals in mind, I wouldn't be put off by it. But I would only contact a breeder that is actually working their dogs, not one that buys titled dogs for their program.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Maybe the key to that statement is "well regarded on this forum".


Must be a blue moon, I'm agreeing with Blitzkrieg. 

There are a couple of breeders from whom I would consider a puppy out of an untitled female, _if_ I had seen other progeny firsthand and had discussed the breeder's reasons for using that particular female and had a lot of trust in the breeder's integrity and ability to accurately evaluate their dogs.

I mean, it does happen that a dog gets injured right before going for a title and has to be pulled from competition, and then a great stud becomes available, and the stars just align in such a fashion that the female gets bred without some letters after her name. So in and of itself it would not necessarily put me off, assuming (again) that I had a lot of faith in the breeder's program and liked the other dogs I had seen from them and trusted their judgment in this one exceptional instance.

...but for the most part, and certainly for anyone who makes a regular practice of breeding untitled animals of whatever gender, that's just not a program that I personally would consider buying a puppy from at this point in my life.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Perhaps they come from a very solid pedigree.....

SuperG


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I've discovered that people are very opinionated about which titles.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

There are exceptions to every rule. Talk to the breeder about the dogs, see the untitled female working, or something like that.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

IMO, if the breeder is training and testing their dogs appropriately, the title is not necessary. If the breeder knows the dog has what they want in their program, along with the experience to make this decision about what it is they see in the dog/pedigree, then the title is moot.

It all comes down to trusting the breeder though.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Remember too, that heat cycles play into trialing/showing,etc... Though many breeders still achieve goals/titles even so.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

David Winners said:


> IMO, if the breeder is training and testing their dogs appropriately, the title is not necessary. If the breeder knows the dog has what they want in their program, along with the experience to make this decision about what it is they see in the dog/pedigree, then the title is moot.
> 
> It all comes down to trusting the breeder though.


Agreed


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

David Winners said:


> IMO, if the breeder is training and testing their dogs appropriately, the title is not necessary. If the breeder knows the dog has what they want in their program, along with the experience to make this decision about what it is they see in the dog/pedigree, then the title is moot.
> 
> It all comes down to trusting the breeder though.


I agree with this too. Wish I could copy paste it into the thread about what titles make a dog breedworthy.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ivan Balabanov- who I think many people greatly respect- breeds untitled females- some are titled, some aren't. I am familiar with many working malinois breeders who breed untitled females and produce top working dogs from these breedings. From what I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong David W), most of the United State's military and police dogs come from breeders in Europe who often breed untitled females.

Health checks are mandatory for me, titles are not. I evaluate a dog on a lot more than just a title. I know plenty of breeders who ship dogs to Europe/outside to get their IPO3 and that tells me these breeders might know less about how that dog actually works, than someone who has worked with the dog extensively but hasn't titled her for whatever reason.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

But the buyer needs to understand the appropriateness or a breeder can just give them a song and dance. If the dog is never tested off their property or put thru some stress or pressure, how can the buyer decipher what is appropriate? 
It is up to the buyer to do their research and know what the breeders focus and goals are in their program....what they've produced in the past and if those goals are being achieved. I have heard many excuses from breeders who are breeding dogs with the minimum or no titles. I'd rather not support those excuses and go with a breeder that is working, sweating and putting effort into their program to prove it.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> But the buyer needs to understand the appropriateness or a breeder can just give them a song and dance.


yep

...and this is where I think the "well regarded on this forum" aspect throws up a red flag for me. There are several breeders where people have said nice things -- and sometimes some not-so-nice things -- about their dogs on this forum, but when I've had the opportunity to see dogs from their programs in person, reality did not always match the mental image I had conjured from reading stuff on the Internet.

You really have to look at who's giving recommendations and what their basis of knowledge is and whether that's somebody whose word you want to trust over the Internet. I know martemchik beats this drum constantly but it's with good reason: not all opinions are created equal.

Sooo for me it's the particular combination of no titles PLUS "well regarded on this forum" (as opposed to someone like Ivan B. where it would just be "well regarded on the planet Earth") that makes me a little uneasy.

Go see the dogs in person and ask some careful questions, that's all I can say.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I think the Malinois/Dutchie community is different due to the bloodlines and the intensity of traits being expressed in the dogs (Cliff has talked about this before). They tend to line breed more and there are alot less people breeding them. Most people know who is who in that community in addition its a lot more common to breed the females untitled. In addition most of those breeders can provide vid of the females working.

In GSDs there are a few breeders I would trust if they said the female was good. However, all those breeders have their females titled so its a moot point.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Merciel said:


> yep
> 
> ...and this is where I think the "well regarded on this forum" aspect throws up a red flag for me. There are several breeders where people have said nice things -- and sometimes some not-so-nice things -- about their dogs on this forum, but when I've had the opportunity to see dogs from their programs in person, reality did not always match the mental image I had conjured from reading stuff on the Internet.
> 
> ...



Merciel, I have been reading the thread on "what titles make a dog breedworthy" and I think that will help answer my question. Your comments are very insightful. Of course I would never be interested in a pup without seeing the parents in person and interviewing the breeder extensively, but right now I just have a big list that needs to be whittled down. I think I don't have enough experience to know who is well-regarded in general, and the few people I know in person to recommend breeders to me all have very different opinions (and preferences).


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

The dam of my pup is untitled and the sire does psa so no titles. The breeder was a hobby breeder and could care less about titles. He actually hated schutzhund. I loved the pedigree and saw enough of the dogs working and how they interacted inside the house that I was sold. Titles are important but it doesn't always show the entire picture.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> The dam of my pup is untitled and the sire does psa so no titles. The breeder was a hobby breeder and could care less about titles. He actually hated schutzhund. I loved the pedigree and saw enough of the dogs working and how they interacted inside the house that I was sold. Titles are important but it doesn't always show the entire picture.


What does working PSA have to do with no titles?

There are PSA titles. It's a sport.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Should've been more clear. I was speaking about schutzhund titles since it is the test used for breed worthiness and all. Also the thing most people look for when looking at a pedigree. Psa is all bite work and control. 

Schutzhund titles are the standard but I'd rather have a dog with psa titles. Just my opinion but I firmly believe a dog could get a schutzhund title but be too nervy to get psa.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> Should've been more clear. I was speaking about schutzhund titles since it is the test used for breed worthiness and all. Also the thing most people look for when looking at a pedigree. Psa is all bite work and control.
> 
> Schutzhund titles are the standard but I'd rather have a dog with psa titles. Just my opinion but I firmly believe a dog could get a schutzhund title but be too nervy to get psa.


I personally think there is a lot more to PSA than bitework and control. Do you have PSA experience? 

David Winners


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I personally think there is a lot more to PSA than bitework and control. Do you have PSA experience?
> 
> David Winners


Like what? What other phase is there? And the only experience was what my breeder showed me. I'm guessing you have lots of experience in psa?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

No. Just been to a couple training events and a trial. I think what you meant, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that there is no tracking.

I think PSA is more about pressure and distraction, for the dog and handler. JMHO

David Winners


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A lot of times also, a female may be started in breeding while she is working on titles (or working certs). The more I learn, the more I realize it is about the dogs and the dogs behind the dogs being bred and not so much the particular paper attached to the dog.

A GOOD breeder may reject a Schutzhund trained dog over one without because the one without is simply a better dog. In recent years I have seen some very nice actual working GSDs compared to 10 years ago. I think the breeding of dogs for the military and police has helped a lot.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think the money available from the military for good dogs over the last 10 years has driven some breeders for sure. They paid top dollar for a lot of dogs. Good point Nancy.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The breeding I just put a deposit down for has the male "Odin" without a title. I don't care. I've seen the dog. I know it's a great one. Titles aren't everything.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I guess I find it , oh whats the word?, closed minded? when anyone feels that if a dog doesn't have a schutz/IPO title its not worth breeding. 

If that were the case, there would be far less really good dogs out there doing SAR, military, therapy, guide, police, and I guess the list could go on.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In East Germany prior to wall coming down, there were many females bred with just FH title( advanced tracking title) and a BH. It did not retard the development of their breeding German Shepherds. We have messed the breed up so much, that there is no way to know a good breeder/breeding without experience and knowledge. There are many soft marginal titled dogs that are going to pass there soft marginal genes and not the titles to the pups. There are many strong sound genetic specimens that because they do not have titles will never get bred to the better dogs so we can improve the breed. And lastly, there are many expert breeders that think the higher the titles the " better" this will be for mating with my dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I actually respect PSA and KNPV titles more then IPO.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think to find out why people breed untitled females you would have to ask the people breeding them. Personally if I could I would breed my untitled female tomorrow and I would be quite happy if it was just a litter of one and I'd keep her/him.-I am not sure how people know how someone is breeding for money. It just seems like certain things are said over and over and if you say it enough its true-which maybe it is. Black and white. The good breeders are those who are titling their dogs and not doing it for money...My next dog will not be from someone advertising working homes only... I personally would like to see a breeder who has kept a line of females-to me that matters


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I guess I find it , oh whats the word?, closed minded? when anyone feels that if a dog doesn't have a schutz/IPO title its not worth breeding.
> 
> If that were the case, there would be far less really good dogs out there doing SAR, military, therapy, guide, police, and I guess the list could go on.


I wish this could be cut and pasted into the Staatsmacht, Gildaf thread


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Both of my male GSD have come from breeders that did not title their females in IPO. They have both been amazing dogs. It all comes down to trust and understanding what it is you want in a dog and what they are trying to accomplish with the breeding. 

But I think this is harder for people without experience to do. Personally I like to see a good line of females that have been part of the breeding program for generations. But again, hard to distinguish without experience, from someone who breeds just to breed. 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I would have to know a breeder for YEARS and really consider them a close friend and someone I trust before I would purchase a puppy out of an untitled female. If its someone that I found on the internet, that had a bunch of people on a forum "vouching" for them, I still wouldn't trust them enough.

In the short time I've had with the breed, I've seen breeders basically start breeding off of reputation alone. They've completely switched lines, and somehow carried over their "knowledge/experience" with one line to the other line (and I'm talking about a huge shift from show to working). How can that happen? Reputation...that's it. And without knowing the person through more than just a few phone calls and emails...you have no idea why they earned that reputation.

The majority of the breeders I've seen use untitled females, will have tons of reasons to tell you why they do it, most of which boil down to them thinking they know better and are too lazy to actually throw a title on the dog. They know the dog is capable, based off of temperament, or pedigree, but they just don't want to take the time or money to title the female. They know people will buy their puppies anyways...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I guess I find it , oh whats the word?, closed minded? when anyone feels that if a dog doesn't have a schutz/IPO title its not worth breeding.
> 
> If that were the case, there would be far less really good dogs out there doing SAR, military, therapy, guide, police, and I guess the list could go on.


Yeah...but there are way too many people claiming the stud dog is a police dog, when most police departments import their dogs and don't bother with American/AKC registration, so its hard to believe the stud could be bred and produce registered pups. There are plenty that claim that the dam is a police dog...and I've never heard of an INTACT female being used at a police department.

I've seen the same thing with SAR. People claiming they're working their dogs in SAR but the dog never gets any kind of certification or actually proves that it can do the work, and sometimes never gets proved out in the real world.

Therapy dog? Seriously? That's not saying much.

Sadly...too many people using "real work" as a way to hide behind proving their dogs. They understand that its hard to prove if the sire or dam were truly police dogs, or how good their dog is at SAR. And the only way to trust that the breeder is truly using a real working dog, or a working their dog in a real venue that doesn't have titles, is to know them through more than a phone call or an email.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Ok next point ...therapy dog isn't saying much seriously that comment is sad. It does say something In your opinion it might not say the dog is breed worthy and that is perfectly ok. But I do therapy work with my dog She brings happiness to other people -and really to me that is important And she brings happiness to me. I think its really unfortunate on here when people make disparaging comments on something like a CGC-putting it down. Because yes it is not a schutzhund title-but not everyone is going to Schutzhund title their dog -and it is something they had did even if it is a small accomplishment. Now I am off to make vegetable primerva because I waste way too much time on this board.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I found out that the CGC is not an extensive temperament test in another thread, but yes, it does say someone took time to train their dog to live in society. I haven't trained a therapy dog, but maybe the temperament testing involved is more intensive because of the amount of work that goes into it?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I haven't trained a therapy dog, but maybe the temperament testing involved is more intensive because of the amount of work that goes into it?


Not... really.

A _great_ therapy dog does have some special qualities that are innate to the dog. Truly great therapy dogs are born, not made. They are emotionally giving -- I don't know how else to describe that. They have an extraordinary attunement to people and an ability to sense and give whatever an individual person or patient needs.

Sometimes a traumatized child just needs a dog to sit quietly by his side and not do anything or press too hard for affection. Sometimes an Alzheimer's patient needs the dog to butt its head up under a wrinkled hand. It's not something you can teach or train, but if you've ever seen a _great_ therapy dog at work, you can see that there truly is something special about that dog's ability to relate to humans. It's not quantifiable and it's not something you can put into a title, but it'll give you chills to watch.

HOWEVER, the huge huge HUGE majority of "therapy dogs" do not have those qualities. I've personally only seen one, maybe two dogs like that, out of dozens of dogs with therapy certifications. The minimum qualifications to get certified as a therapy dog are about on par with the CGCA (advanced community canine). It's not nothing -- _nothing_ is ever nothing, particularly if you're working a difficult dog -- but it's not all that impressive, either.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This has nothing to do with how important a therapy dog is or what the certification is. At the end of the day, its not a breed test. Like Marciel just pointed out, the things a "great therapy dog" does, are not part of the GSD standard. I would not discredit a therapy dog, I'd love to see it as part of a dog's list of titles, but if all you have on a dog is "therapy dog" well...sorry, doesn't say much. Truth is, a low drive, don't care about doing anything but cuddle with you dog, is the perfect therapy dog. That's not what a GSD should be...

For what its worth, my dog is a therapy dog. He's well trained, will listen to me, and he's very aloof. So he can easily make people happy by putting on performances, showing tricks, and of course sitting by them/laying by them when I say. But the simple fact that he doesn't rip people's faces off that want to pet him or be near him, isn't what makes him a great example of our breed.

I've also seen a problem develop with what "therapy dog" means to the general public. Many people think that its a step below a service dog. Many think its pretty much what an "emotional support dog" is in the eyes of the government, and its not. It's just something that says your dog is solid enough to go visit people in hospitals, schools, ect. 

It's nothing against anyone that has accomplished a therapy dog certification, its something that anyone can and should be proud of...but its not something to hang your hat on if you're trying to prove your dog should be bred.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Ultimately there are many on here and out on the world that will be happy with a gsd that has softer temperment, lower drive and other traits that equate to belpw average workability. Im sure such a dog would make a great therapy dog..lol. Anyways most of the people that own these dogs will never know or accept the truth of what their dog is. They will tell nice stories and believe that their dogs can do it all if they wanted to but will never truly test to find out what they have.
They will go back to the breeder that produced the below average dog and be happy to buy another puppy. The breeder will mainly be selling to these types of people and has no pressure to improve their breeding stock. They will also tell many stories about how great their dogs are. 

In the end its about trust. If Staatmact or Raino for example bred an untitled female I wouldnt be bothered. (they dont) If another breeder (no names) bred a titled female I still wouldnt trust the quality of the dogs because that breeder has no track record or worse a track record of using duds as studs..lol.
But in the end even the low quality breeders can make money its that kind of market! Just make sure the dogs are CGC and do Therapy very impressive!


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Many very important traits are not quantifiable, and there is no way of knowing whether they will be passed on. Still, breeders try, and good breeders try to maximize the potentials quantifiable and un.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Okay, back on topic, because I don't really see CGC or therapy work as relevant to this discussion: why is it that the males seem to be more heavily titled in certain contexts? For example, in some European pedigrees. Do people just prefer using males for sport so much?


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Males don't go through heat cycles where they become ineligible to compete in trials. Females are out of commission for 2 months of every year. In my country if one of those cycles is in the middle of the summer you loose prime trialing time (many more events in summer than winter).

And as a Rottie breeder friend of mine says, "The easiest way to get a girl to come into heat is the enter her into an obedience trial. It never fails."


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Kaimeju said:


> Okay, back on topic, because I don't really see CGC or therapy work as relevant to this discussion: why is it that the males seem to be more heavily titled in certain contexts? For example, in some European pedigrees. Do people just prefer using males for sport so much?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



A very prominent person in GSD once said, he would breed a GOOD female but only breed an EXCELLENT male. His reasoning was that a female can only produce a specific number of puppies in her life. A male can add his genes 50x over. So his focus was on the male. Don't know that I subscribe to that, but it does make a bit of sense. You see the same thing in the horse world, a nice female, with a good pedigree is bred to a top male with lots of awards. 

It's much harder to compete at the highest levels when 8-10 weeks each year are out because if a heat cycle. It was the main reason I spayed my working females. Considering they tend to go into heat during tornado and hurricane season, and I can't deploy with a female in heat. 

I think that's also why a female needs only an IPO1 in SV world to be eligible to breed. It's tough to keep competing and breed and raise puppies and stay in top. 


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey GSDSAR, my philosophy on breeding has always been somewhat opposite. If given the choice of a pup from an average parent, I want it to be the male....if given the choice of one parent being excellent....not saying I am right....I just look at it differently.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yeah , I'll weigh in on that . I too want the female to be "excellent"

That "good" female and excellent male philosophy , one shared by Manfred Heyne , is so old fashioned , out of date, out of line with genetics . "They" looked on to the female as being a mere vessel to carry the males contribution , without adding or taking away from him. Doesn't work that way!

Where the heck did they think these excellent males came from?

Try buying an "excellent" male - it is a can do . Try buying an excellent female -- not so easy.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> Hey GSDSAR, my philosophy on breeding has always been somewhat opposite. If given the choice of a pup from an average parent, I want it to be the male....if given the choice of one parent being excellent....not saying I am right....I just look at it differently.



I don't disagree Cliff. In fact, I think the mother contributes, in the end, more to a pup than the the father, because she is with them longer and influences them not only genetically but environmentally as well. 

I was just explaining the mind set I had heard in the past in regards to the question. 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah, its the heat cycle thing that makes titling females difficult. That's why when you see an IPO3 HOT female, its pretty impressive and so I don't really respect the whole, "I have tons of experience and I just know this female is great so I'm going to breed her without titling" thing.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> Yeah...but there are way too many people claiming the stud dog is a police dog, when most police departments import their dogs and don't bother with American/AKC registration, so its hard to believe the stud could be bred and produce registered pups. There are plenty that claim that the dam is a police dog...and I've never heard of an INTACT female being used at a police department.
> 
> I've seen the same thing with SAR. People claiming they're working their dogs in SAR but the dog never gets any kind of certification or actually proves that it can do the work, and sometimes never gets proved out in the real world.
> 
> Therapy dog? Seriously? That's not saying much.


I don't think anywhere in my post I said the dogs above "should" be bred. I was saying dogs with the above attributes don't need IPO/schutz titles to be "good" dogs and serve as an ambassador to the breed. 

As for the rest, well, isn't it up to the "buyer" to educate themselves? We all know alot do not, but I know I certainly wouldn't take someones 'word' that the puppies they are producing are out of 'police' dogs if others do, well then that's their issue not mine. 

I find your "therapy dog seriously" remark, quite offensive, maybe you should tell that to people who have service dogs for mental/emotional/physical support. 

Again, I didn't say 'go out and breed them"..I'm saying not EVERY dog that has an IPO/schutz titled dog should be the only one's 'breeding'..

It gets real 'old' when one (general one) thinks their IPO/schutz dogs are the only "real" dogs out there..


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I don't think anywhere in my post I said the dogs above "should" be bred. I was saying dogs with the above attributes don't need IPO/schutz titles to be "good" dogs and serve as an ambassador to the breed.
> 
> As for the rest, well, isn't it up to the "buyer" to educate themselves? We all know alot do not, but I know I certainly wouldn't take someones 'word' that the puppies they are producing are out of 'police' dogs if others do, well then that's their issue not mine.
> 
> ...


I agree, it gets old. Why not more diversity in titles?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have bred an untitled bitch. I do it because I don't want to spend the time and money to put titles on her if I don't like what she produces.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

For those of you on here that have bred untitled females lets see some vids of the dogs doing what a GSD is supposed to be able to do. 
That means the dog handling pressure, remaining controlled and responsive while in drive etc etc. 
Im curious what these prodigies that just didnt have time to get titled look like.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

I have been considering purchasing a puppy from another breed for awhile now. Here is a brief synopsis of each of the breeders I've been considering. Please note - these are not GSD breeders.

Breeder 1. Trains, competes, does clinics, is a judge, has been breeding for decades. I've seen dogs from their program and been impressed with the work ethic, health, etc. Would I purchase a pup from an untitled female in their program? Yep.

Breeder 2. Trains, competes, has produced training DVDs, nationally known competitor, has been breeding for decades. I've met dogs from their program and was similarly impressed with the work ethic, versatility, health, references, etc. Would I purchase a pup from an untitled female in their program? Yep.

Breeder 3. Trains, competes, has generations of their own breeding, has a breeding program, not just throwing 2 dogs together, has very respectable accomplishments in the dog sports I'm interested in. I've met dogs from their program and was impressed with temperaments, structure, etc. Would I purchase a pup from an untitled female in their program? Maybe.

Breeder 4. Trains, competes, knows bloodlines, knows genetics, understands epigenetics, has accomplishments galore, has healthy dogs with longevity and exceptional structure that holds up to years of competition. Loves and cares for dogs like family. Is the embodiment of true sportsmanship. Would I purchase a pup from an untitled female in their program? Absolutely!

Each of these breeders has decades of experience and they strive to breed healthy dogs with wonderful temperaments. They have dedicated their lives to raising, training, and breeding dogs and their accomplishments speak volumes about the depth of that dedication. They are developing breeding programs with a strong genetic legacy in mind.

HOWEVER! This type of breeder is NOT the norm. The sad reality is that the vast majority of puppies produced in the U.S. are the result of indiscriminate breeding. I teach classes throughout the year and I meet many fearful, spooky, and downright aggressive dogs from irresponsible breeders. I've seen dogs that want to take a chunk out of everyone in the room (including their owner) and found out later that the dog is being used for breeding. Ugh. 

probably 9.99 times out of 10, I would not be interested in a puppy from an untitled female. However, there are a handful of breeders whose level of dedication more than compensates for the lack of letters.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

Male or female the titles is just one thing, what good is a highly titled dog if you don´t know much about the health and workingability in the littermates and relatives? Titles doesn´t mean much if the bueyer can´t recognize a good dog for a certain job anyway. I would have no problem buying a dog from an untitled parent if I have seen it work and it comes from a good litter/line. Quite many dogs have no IPO-titles but have the manadotory HD/ED plus charactertest here in sweden for example where IPO-titles is not a must, if they have titles that could be IPO as it could be policedogs,security,tracking;search or non IPO-sports, the titles would not be the main reason why I would be intressted in a certain breeding anyway.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

bjorn GREAT post!

Blitzkrieg, do you think everyone goes around video'ing their dogs doing 'whatever'? I know I don't. (and no I don't do schutz/Ipo)

Why would you even care to see them? Just to pick them apart? I doubt breeding untitled females will affect your world , your dogs or what you do with them,


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think part of it is that people interested in sport look at titles. It's totally understandable, as their goals as in line with those letters.

Working dog people don't really care about letters, they care about generations of dogs and siblings on the street. I would buy a dog from a breeder with no titled dogs for generations if they were consistently producing dogs that can do the work.

With that being said, a bitch with *SchH3, IPO3, AWD1, P1, FO, RN, OA, AXJ, NF, CGC, TT, OFA, CERF* after her name is impressive to me and would certainly bear consideration as a source for a good puppy.

JMO


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> With that being said, a bitch with SchH3, IPO3, AWD1, P1, FO, RN, OA, AXJ, NF, CGC, TT, OFA, CERF after her name is impressive to me and would certainly bear consideration as a source for a good puppy.


Is that Eris's bio?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Maybe....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And the titles are only a small part of who she is.....I'd love a clone of her


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Can't wait to meet her! I'll be up in that neck of the woods sometime soon. I may hold off until later in the year and bring Fama with me. I know Julie at A/T wants to meet her.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> bjorn GREAT post!
> 
> Blitzkrieg, do you think everyone goes around video'ing their dogs doing 'whatever'? I know I don't. (and no I don't do schutz/Ipo)
> 
> Why would you even care to see them? Just to pick them apart? I doubt breeding untitled females will affect your world , your dogs or what you do with them,


Lol


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

David Winners said:


> I think part of it is that people interested in sport look at titles. It's totally understandable, as their goals as in line with those letters.
> 
> Working dog people don't really care about letters, they care about generations of dogs and siblings on the street. I would buy a dog from a breeder with no titled dogs for generations if they were consistently producing dogs that can do the work.
> 
> ...



I know all of that behind a dog's name tends to impress me along with knowing who the breeder is.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

glowingtoadfly said:


> lol


lol


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> bjorn GREAT post!
> 
> Blitzkrieg, do you think everyone goes around video'ing their dogs doing 'whatever'? I know I don't. (and no I don't do schutz/Ipo)
> 
> Why would you even care to see them? Just to pick them apart? I doubt breeding untitled females will affect your world , your dogs or what you do with them,


Because this is a thread about breeding untitled females...somewhat pertinant doncha think?

As to video if your breeding your dogs especially if your not bothering to title them Im assuming you at least have some video evidence of their workability. I want to confirm a suspicion that I have..or refute it.
I know some breeders that have bred untitled females and they had video evidence of the dogs working for clients that couldnt come in person. However, their reputations spoke for themselves so the vids were superfluous.

I have plenty of video and Im not breeding or selling anything, its not hard to do.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Personally, I wouldn't trust a video anyways. If you are going to spend that kind of money on a dog, plus the money and time it takes to raise and train that dog, a "money shot" video isn't going to be a determining factor in my decision.

I'm going to ask for references and contact them. I'm going to look at that breeder's track record. I'm going to get my hands on their dogs and see what they have to offer towards what I want in a dog.

Plus, you have to consider that anyone who posts a video on the internet showing how great their dog is will have to defend themselves. Someone will find fault in their dog, training, shoes, helper, choice of equipment... it is going to happen. Look at how much time Alice spent defending her training of the Robbie pups (different forum). What is really the point?

If the breeder is placing pups in the right venues and has the right reputation, a YouTube isn't necessary IMO.

I will admit that I like to see videos for pure viewing pleasure though


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Personally, I wouldn't trust a video anyways. If you are going to spend that kind of money on a dog, plus the money and time it takes to raise and train that dog, a "money shot" video isn't going to be a determining factor in my decision.
> 
> I'm going to ask for references and contact them. I'm going to look at that breeder's track record. I'm going to get my hands on their dogs and see what they have to offer towards what I want in a dog.
> 
> ...


 
True, I have never and would never buy a dog just based on a video. I have watched a few being made around here... 

Its all about the rep and track record in the end.

I think we know there are those that can accurately judge a female's worth with or without a title. 
Then there are the majority that can't and delude themselves and others that they can titled or no.

Just requested video since most people that are serious about dogs have some for clients that want to see. I want to see some of these prodigies I wouldnt have any issues if they looked like Alice's pup..lol. There are many bitchs being bred that will never look close to that good.

Pretty much all the breeders I consider decent have vids available, and these are generally busy people with careers and multiple dogs. 

Most of them find the time to title their bitches too strangely..


** response to deleted post removed**


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Carmspack Kohl -- dam of 3 working service dogs , and a dog owned by Linda Shaw , Kato, that will get some exposure in the near future.
Kohl sent to good friend and decoy and a lover of "real" dogs . Plan was to breed her to Brawnson . Diehl warned that he was going to give her a really tough evaluation. Sure you go right ahead and test her , pull no punches --- and he loved her ! Same with Rinus Bastiannsen , who tested her more than once just to have the pleasure of "playing" with a hard intense female . He loved her . Rinus also had decoy work with Chunko , who got several times Decoys Choice , and he made public comment about the dog being real. 
I am not title aversive . Not at all . I have owned titled females , that never got bred , in spite of my investment. 
I would love to have more dogs of mine out there in sport , just like with Journey and her owner , I would give all my support and guidance that I am able to provide .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there are in-house closed breeding programs in New Zealand, Australia and United Kingdom, and even Canada , where dogs are produced specifically for police and military. The females, no, all stock, is tested to the nth degree , individually and more importantly by results of the progeny --- they are not titled or have gone through the SV system. 
Here is another








Crosses between types generally do not show the extremes of either parent’s type. Shown is a first generation DDR X Canadian show cross, from a Group winning show champion (Ch Corry Wiesental OVC TT) and a bitch of Kuhnhof breeding. He was my homebred male, Tim, and the most reliable dog I have ever known. He was living proof that a GSD can have high drive and hardness, and still be a wonderful companion, gentle with children and friendly with people. For 14 healthy years he made friends for the breed where ever he went.
Shawlein Easter Parade SchH3 AD CD TD TT CGC UCC OFA CH ptd.
Bred, trained and loved by Linda J Shaw. April 14 1995 – May 27 2009


son of Carmspack Katiana , Kilo's sister.
Tim also participated in Ring , in the Jerry Cudahy club, alongside myself and Kilo . The clubs don't survive . We'll try again with another club.
Tim was bred to Kohl , resulting in Kato .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Blitzkrieg , wait until you do the tracking portion of your sport .


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Moderator hat on:

KNOCK IT OFF. The current bickering back and forth is unproductive and juvenile. Agree to disagree and move on. None of the back and forth posts contribute at all to OP. If you can not contribute in a mature way, please refrain from posting in this thread, or any thread for that matter. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there you go . Police service and SAR must search on multiple surfaces, temperature , and aged and contaminated .
Birch-Bark Hill , go , find , Spook TDX (Kilo daughter ) Trust one of the first to achieve Urban Tracking Dog Excellent , and Blast Urban Tracking Dog Excellent , at 2 years of age.

When you can go out for an evaluation with a barely 7 month old dog to a location 50 miles from home , that you have never been to , get out of the car and immediately without pause do a 1/2 mile stranger track , high wind , chilly day , repeat with another dog 6 weeks older and nail it then you can talk about tracking . These are skills inherent to the dog . Deep , bred-in-the-bone . Unfortunately "titles" give little information as the skills necessary to trial and title can be nurtured along , and have multiple tries to achieve success.
You go out to present a dog for service and you have ONE chance to make that impression. The door doesn't close , it slams shut.

Then from there you hand over the leash and the dog was put through a test evaluation as close to the Swedish mentality test as I have seen with one exception and that was that you handed over the leash. NO support or comfort being close to familiar handler. Off to the woods they go for the separation and friendly and hostile stranger approaches.
Article indentification.
Retrieves, hunt drive , friendly fire, fire at distance . 
A portion you endure sitting in your vehicle while the dog is gone , driven to another location.
At the end yet one more evaluation . Clearing a dark building , walking up stair case in a dark windowless building . Lastly being put into busy factory type mechanical commotion .

That was part of the test for Stark -- who was successful and ended up in Buffalo , and that was part of the test for Silva , who a year later became a bomb detection dog for Toronto.
Both of them , ironically from two sisters Rachel and Case . Each one of those untitled dogs produced for Customs, narcotic, Personal protection , and Case several first , second and now third generation dogs in service . Case produced Journey IPO 1 , who is just starting her journey. In the future she will produce a generation of dogs for service.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*I removed all of the posts that contained the childish and petty bickering.

gsdsar's warning still stands!!

Admin Lisa*


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I find your "therapy dog seriously" remark, quite offensive, maybe you should tell that to people who have service dogs for mental/emotional/physical support.


Just a heads up...and I know its late to the game, but that's my point. A THERAPY DOG is not a SERVICE DOG or an EMOTIONAL SUPPORT DOG. A therapy dog has NONE of the rights that a SERVICE DOG has.

People don't know those distinctions. They see "therapy dog" and think that's is a service dog. And its not. MY DOG IS A THERAPY DOG. It means he's passed a few tests (not unlike the CGC) that have proven that he's "safe" around people and is obedient enough that if something does happen, he's more likely to listen to me, than attack a "surprise" of some sort.

I think people with service dogs should take offense when other people are making it seem like their therapy dogs are equal to their service dogs and therefore are "above pets." And so, if a breeder is making it seem like the fact that their dog is a therapy dog and so it should be bred because of that...its false advertising because I know 100% that they are using the lack of knowledge on the customer's side to make their dog seem greater than it truly is.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

A TD isn't a dog that's passed a test. A dog that's passed the test is just that: trained well enough to pass. A TD is an actual gift to those who want the interaction with a dog (or other animal) and this is how it happens. Just passing the test means a foot in the door - the dog needs much more than that to be a worthwhile TD. Not that I think this is any indication of breedworthyness. But if the dog has what it takes to be a TD, chances are good that it has what it takes to go beyond that as well. If people mix up therapy and service, it's either an honest mistake or it's intentional.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

my error, when I said "therapy" I meant "service" in my initial post.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> my error, when I said "therapy" I meant "service" in my initial post.


Oh absolutely!

That's why I made sure to say therapy...I would never ever put down the work for a true service dog or even emotional support animal.

I would love to see more GSDs as service dogs, and those lines to be used in breeding programs to produce more dogs with those types of solid temperaments and work ability.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but they wouldn't have titles?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

meanwhile in Holland , thinking the malinois bred for work , don't concern themselves with titles , many of the dogs not even having "pedigrees" as in being registered. This does not mean they are unknown , most likely somewhere along the line some "other" breed was slipped in.
The dogs are thoroughly evaluated and very critically evaluated for what they are producing .


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

To me, I would prefer a breeder use bitches and dogs that are free of or least low in hereditary and inhereditary diseases. Give me progeny with no displaysia, Haemophilia, EPI etc any day.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

martemchik said:


> And so, if a breeder is making it seem like the fact that their dog is a therapy dog and so it should be bred because of that...its false advertising because I know 100% that they are using the lack of knowledge on the customer's side to make their dog seem greater than it truly is.


Either that or they just don't know what it means themselves.

The conformation breeder who produced my MIL's poodle touted that the sire was a therapy dog, but it wasn't her dog, she didn't put the certification on him, and she didn't seem to know what it actually entailed.

In that circumstance it didn't really bother me, because I'd steered them toward a conformation breeder and away from performance breeders on purpose. But it was pretty funny.


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