# Working Lines - Czech, DDR, West, WHAT?



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay, so I think I'm leaning toward the working lines more than the WGSLs now, but that's for another thread. 

I usually just lumped the working lines all into one group, but now I want to do some more in-depth exploring into these lines, what exactly ARE the different lines that make up the working lines? What are the main differences in them? Sharpness, nerve, hardness, drive, aggression, etc...?

I know I've said it a million times, and I'll probably say it a million more, but I want a dog that has a medium drive, strong nerves, high willingness/eagerness to work and please, and has a clear on/off switch. I think I'd be fine with a moderately 'hard' dog. Which specific working lines fit that criteria?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

You can find these traits in all "types" of Euro WL.....IMO things like biddability are more bloodline specific than geographic - for example - I had a DDR female that I did 6 or 7 SchH3 with....got her at 16 weeks old and often dispaired of ever getting us on the same page - retrieve drive was there - but she had her own agenda always! fantastic tracking ability - but again, her own agenda....when I titled and koered her - I wanted a male who could contribute biddability (compensatory) in retrieves, not diminish the tracking, and would complement her by equaling her drives in bitework - plus be good looking KKL1 and not wash out her nice dark dark DDR pigment! So I went to Xito Maineiche, as I knew he could produce all this and more! And I was very very lucky that I got what I wanted - super biddability and fantastic tracking ability - a great balance of true appropriate civil aggression and prey - my female from this litter has all this - the whole litter worked - one a SAR certified dog who then became a narcotics patrol K9 for State Police, another titled, and another SAR and OB...and Csabre is a dog who loves children even tho she has rarely seen them, can go into a home with new people and her whole litter of pups to visit and play and smooze with the people... (photos to come!)....and the K9 is a 4 year olds best friend when off duty.

So this is an almost half DDR and half WGWL female - I bred once to a Belgian male and retained the drive and personality - nice handler hard pups with great drives and biddability...strong females...ball drive off the charts...very intense in bitework...

And then I used a male who was 50% Czech and 50% Belgian - so this litter is very interesting as it ends up being 25% each - West German, DDR, Czech and Belgian....I can already see confidence, retrieve drives, and just very social pups. What I see is a litter so consistant that I am having a hard time sorting out and finding 2 pets and a "pick" female/male...they test out the same/close so far....

My Belgian female, Basha (whose dam was Czech/WGWL) was bred mainly to Belgian males - lots of titled progeny - every litter has titled progeny...and working ability and ball drive out the ears...the balance is tipped a bit towards working in prey, although she produced working K9s in her European born litters as well as a many times nationally well placed male...from this female we have agility/flyball, certified SAR and narcotics as well as schutzhund titles...great biddability, but not quite as balanced as consistantly in appropriate social aggression as the other lines I work with...more sport dogs in type.

What I am saying is that you cannot say that everythign is geographically specific - although tight gene pools will give you a tendency towards certain qualities - most people are now blending the geographic gene pools - the Czech breeders are using Belgian or German lines as are the Belgians here and there...

What you are looking for is the middle of the road pup in a litter which is bred for balance in all things... There are people who say there is only 1 working pup in a litter - I say that a titled dog is the result of the owners ability and dedication to training if they get a decent balanced pup. 

Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If you are looking for a fun and active companion, the differences in the sub-groups won't matter. What you are looking for is basic in all the lines. For example, where the differences between West German or Czech or DDR come in will matter mostly if you are looking for a IPO podium dog (West German), or if you are looking for a PP or police dog prospect (Czech), but any of these lines can produce medium drive, medium hard dogs that will be a good fit for a family dog.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

MANY Podium dogs are Belgian....Ronny van den Berghe has won the worlds - 5? 6? times with LOSH bred dogs - from Tom, to son Eros to his son Como.....and many police dogs are from other lines than Czech....

Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> MANY Podium dogs are Belgian....Ronny van den Berghe has won the worlds - 5? 6? times with LOSH bred dogs - from Tom, to son Eros to his son Como.....and many police dogs are from other lines than Czech....
> 
> Lee


Absolutely. Didn't mean to imply otherwise, just trying to give general examples. As I was saying, the differences in the lines are subtle, probably won't make much difference overall for someone looking for a family dog - and that same subtlety also means that the difference between the lines is minor and dogs from any line can excel in many different venues - comes down to the individual dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Konotashi said:


> I know I've said it a million times, and I'll probably say it a million more, but I want a dog that has a medium drive, strong nerves, high willingness/eagerness to work and please, and has a clear on/off switch. I think I'd be fine with a moderately 'hard' dog. Which specific working lines fit that criteria?



You're describing Halo.  Halo von Rokanhaus - German Shepherd Dog


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Very sweet pic of her on the pedigreedatabase


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lee, ms Wolfstraum said "You can find these traits in all "types" of Euro WL.....IMO things like biddability are more bloodline specific than geographic "
and 
" So I went to Xito Maineiche, as I knew he could produce all this and more! And I was very very lucky that I got what I wanted - super biddability and fantastic tracking ability - a great balance of true appropriate civil aggression and prey " 

and I agree. The addition of Xito Maineiche brought in genetic resources to old herding lines. Quite a bit of Bernd and repeat D litter Lierberg -- good thing for stability and work. Nice Racker Itztal for stability, joy of working , herding through Pirol Kirschental -- Seigo Angerholz - W litter Himpel, Marko Cellerland -- .
As a kennel Maineiche had a far reaching plan, emphasized utility and versatility and conserved herding. It is a combination in use by myself .

The national needs of a country will flavour the balances of the GSD bred within that country. Pet was not a high priority in Czech - so all the warm and fuzzies are not there so much - so you can expect a little more distant but highly capable dog for work .

Better to find that breeder who knows what you want and can provide it , can interpret a pedigree. There are several on this forum, Wolfstraum included that can do just this.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think you just need to go out and MEET GSD's, watch them work, and be nosey about what types they are. You are NEVER going to understand all these differences people are talking about unless you go out there and see them for yourself.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> I think you just need to go out and MEET GSD's, watch them work, and be nosey about what types they are. You are NEVER going to understand all these differences people are talking about unless you go out there and see them for yourself.


:thumbup:

This... 100% this. Things became much clearer for me once I started going out to club. I saw rather quickly which qualities I was looking for. It really helps to give concrete physical experience of traits and ideas that are otherwise abstract.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

carmspack said:


> Lee, ms Wolfstraum said "You can find these traits in all "types" of Euro WL.....IMO things like biddability are more bloodline specific than geographic "
> and
> " So I went to Xito Maineiche, as I knew he could produce all this and more! And I was very very lucky that I got what I wanted - super biddability and fantastic tracking ability - a great balance of true appropriate civil aggression and prey "
> 
> ...


Carmen - look at my Kyra's background - haus Himple, Bernd, Kirshental - and the herding instinct was strong....I feel this C litter from her and Xito is a super genetic depository -especially as it was free of the heavy duty resources of Mink and Fero - Kormeister Scheld was very complimentary about this pedigree. 

Lee


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

carmspack said:


> Better to find that breeder who knows what you want and can provide it , can interpret a pedigree. There are several on this forum, Wolfstraum included that can do just this.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I think this sums it up to a "t". 

As an example, I have a dog that is primarily WG with a ? tad of DDR but she definitely sides on being far sharper and more civil rather than "sporty". That said, she has an unlimited supply of work energy and drive that brings nice "flash" in her OB but structured "sport" protection work with her is not easy.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Do YouTube videos count as watching dogs work? (Kidding).  

There's a SchH trial in February I'll be going to to watch. 
Are all trials listed on the USCA website? 

When I go to visit breeders, what should I be looking for in regard to the dogs themselves, aside from the specific qualities I want in a future pup?


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Konotashi said:


> Do YouTube videos count as watching dogs work? (Kidding).
> 
> There's a SchH trial in February I'll be going to to watch.
> Are all trials listed on the USCA website?
> ...


It doesn't have to be a trial. Get out to the local clubs and watch them train as well.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

IllinoisGSD said:


> It doesn't have to be a trial. Get out to the local clubs and watch them train as well.


I think the person who has Asta on my flyball team knows the person who I got to watch do some protection training. I'll ask her if she knows the dog/handler, because I was impressed with him.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I dont really know anything about different working lines. Besides Chuck's dogs, I have never met another working line GSD.

_"I want a dog that has a medium drive, strong nerves, high willingness/eagerness to work and please, and has a clear on/off switch."_

That sounds exactly like my Malice, she is Czech/West German working lines.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Dont just go to trials. Thats nice but you aren't going to learn a whol lot because there won't be problem fixing and a lot of ta lking about techniques and what not. Go to clubs and watch and learn and ask questions.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

You need to go meet the dogs. Lots of dogs. When you see one you like, or don't like, inquire about the bloodlines. Only then will you be able to get a true feel for what they are really like, and what would be a good fit for you.

I also agree with Justine that trials are not the best place to do this. There you are seeing the finished product, not what went into achieving that. And frankly you'll also find that most people are busy and stressed on trial day and focused on the trial and doing what they can to get the best performance from their dog that day. Thus understandably they aren't nearly as open to chit chatting and discussing and answering questions about their dogs, or letting you meet and interact with their dogs, as they would be in another situation.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Didn't think about that - there are a few clubs around here. I'll see when they're training and if they'd be alright with me hanging out.


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