# have i just seen right? piebsld gsd?



## katieandnik (Aug 11, 2013)

Hey I just saw a piebald gsd?
Are they full gsd? 
How common are they? 
Does anyone have one? 

Very intrigued by these would looove to see piccys


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Are you talking about a Panda? Yes. They are purebred


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Scroll down to the last one. Interesting. 
http://colorgenetics.info/canine/white-patterns


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

yes Panda shepherds are PB shepherds.


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## katieandnik (Aug 11, 2013)

Omg that is awesome!!! 
So are these super rare? Has anyone on here got one? 
I have never ever seen or heard of a shepherd like that but I absolutely love it
It is so good looking, I'm literally in shock over here. 
So from what I read on the link, they are accidental ? Can't be bred purposly as it don't affect all pups? 
GORGEOUS!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I believe there is at least one member here who has one.
If it's the panda gene, yes they can be bred for, IIRC it's autosomal dominant.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Its one more thing the Shepherd breed does not need...:sly:

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## rgrey (Jul 30, 2013)

Supposedly (and I say this because I can't remember where I read it so I can't provide documents/websites) its a mutant gene that showed up in one line of breeding and the offspring carries the gene and passes it on with some of their pups being normal colors and some piebald. 

Its only been in that one line and there was a big hoop-ra that something snuck in but the pups were DNA tested and were 100% GSD.

Or something like that-off to find all the web links and docs about it. I remember it being really interesting.

Edit to add: 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/108544-panda-gsd.html 
http://www.pandashepherds.com/frankie
http://www.pandashepherds.com/the_panda_standard_illustrated (are these illustrations good for learning general GSD conformation? I really like them and need to learn correct confo)


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't think the panda coloration is detrimental to the breed. If you don't like it, don't breed to a "panda" colored dog.



rgrey said:


> Phenom Shepherds - The Panda Standard (are these illustrations good for learning general GSD conformation? I really like them and need to learn correct confo)


Yes I believe those are Linda Shaw's illustrations, just altered. 

Here are a few other sites with more info:
THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD OF THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG
Movement of the Working Dog
https://www.gsdca.org/images/pdf_items/judges_seminar_booklet_0408.pdf


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## rgrey (Jul 30, 2013)

Thank you Chicago!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> Its one more thing the Shepherd breed does not need...:sly:
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


:beer::thumbup::beer:

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Anything out of standard and bred to as nothing more than a fad and cool coloring is detrimental to a working breed!

Max von stephanitz would be turning in his grave

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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the UKC allows pandas to be shown in the conformation ring, as their noses are still black and they don't dock white dogs. 

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it is co-dominant. 

And it is panda, not piebald. I emphasize that, because there is a highly unethical breeder (at least in my opinion) breeding dogs that she calls piebalds, and they are not pandas.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> Anything out of standard and bred to as nothing more than a fad and cool coloring is detrimental to a working breed!
> 
> Max von stephanitz would be turning in his grave
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


"No good dog can be a bad color."
-Max von Stephanitz


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Konotashi said:


> "No good dog can be a bad color."
> -Max von Stephanitz


I meant breeding a dog for a fad. Find me a few good breeders that produce pandas. The color alone is not necessarily the problem. If they had solid working nerves so be it. But they dont. Everyone wants one "because they're pretty". Thats even the reasoning that drove the OP to be so intrigued.THAT is what ruins a breed

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

" I have...for a long time uttered warnings against keeping our shepherd dogs in kennels, and against a onesided breeding for beauty as opposed to efficiency. The shepherd dog is a working dog, he was born so, and only as such can he remain a "shepherd dog"; the dog which we value and love.*"

" but this competition reaches its high-water mark in the show ring, which, just because they demand no real capabilities, ...lead people only too easily astray to lay emphasis entirely on external shape and beauty, instead of on the substance which really matters."

" The coloring of the dog has no significance whatever for service; our shepherd dog accordingly is not bred for color. Coloring therefore is only a fad of the amateur and as such is often liable to changes of whim."

-Max von Stephanitz

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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> " I have...for a long time uttered warnings against keeping our shepherd dogs in kennels, and against a onesided breeding for beauty as opposed to efficiency. The shepherd dog is a working dog, he was born so, and only as such can he remain a "shepherd dog"; the dog which we value and love.*"
> 
> " but this competition reaches its high-water mark in the show ring, which, just because they demand no real capabilities, ...lead people only too easily astray to lay emphasis entirely on external shape and beauty, instead of on the substance which really matters."
> 
> ...


Wow.
If only people listened to him.


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

Anubis_Star said:


> " I have...for a long time uttered warnings against keeping our shepherd dogs in kennels, and against a onesided breeding for beauty as opposed to efficiency. The shepherd dog is a working dog, he was born so, and only as such can he remain a "shepherd dog"; the dog which we value and love.*"
> 
> " but this competition reaches its high-water mark in the show ring, which, just because they demand no real capabilities, ...lead people only too easily astray to lay emphasis entirely on external shape and beauty, instead of on the substance which really matters."
> 
> ...


:thumbup: 

Color is a fad. It goes in cycles. At one point classic black and tans will be popular, then it'll move to heavy blankets, to bi's, blacks and sables, sometimes white will be thrown in there and there's always those who breed for the "rarity" of the pattern or color and throw out blues, livers, and whites for a higher price, with no purpose other than they are deemed "rare". 

The important thing to remember is the GSD is a working dog and should be bred to do that. Structure and overall health should come first, before anything else, including color/pattern/coat type. I love the look of a good conformation show dog, but I'm afraid it would fail miserably to perform in the real world of a working German Shepherd Dog. Looks don't mean a lot when you've got a job to do. 

Now, if you raise AKC dogs (or dogs for any registry), it's important to remember the registry's breed standard. For example, if you're truly breeding AKC dogs, for the right reasons, then you should try to stick to that AKC standard as much as possible... which means not purposely breeding for dogs that are not acceptable, which would include dogs such as blues, livers, whites and pandas. 

(Of course, this all is just my opinion.)


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)




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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> Anything out of standard and bred to as nothing more than a fad and cool coloring is detrimental to a working breed!
> http://www.petguide.com/mobile


There are hundreds of GSD's with standard perfect coloring who couldn't work their way out of a paper bag.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


>


Not attractive at all... in my opinion. It's weird looking and just doesn't look right to me.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> There are hundreds of GSD's with standard perfect coloring who couldn't work their way out of a paper bag.


Proves the point - they were bred for perfect coloring, not for work ability.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Good article in the last GSDCA Review by Jimmy Moses. Subject White GSD's. He was saying some similar things about dogs being bred for work and color should not matter. There are founding dogs in this breed that were white. 

I kind of think the Panda's are neat looking. I liked my white GSD too, handsome dog very good work ethic.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

There ARE breeders out there who breed "off" colors but with an emphasis on working ability... who title their dogs, etc. Usually, these dogs are produced randomly... products of parents who carry the genes for it but their drive and temperament outweigh potential faults. 

The breeders who breed solely for color, have no desire or need to prove working ability. They select parents solely for the potential for fault-colored progeny. The vast, vast majority pump out "UBER SUPER RARE!" colored shepherds because people will pay a fortune for them without all the work of titling.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I personally don't like all of the "off" colors... not my cup of tea, and honestly, I would have no problem with those colors not existing. A shepherd is a shepherd is a shepherd. It must look like one, walk like one, and bark like one... that's my opinion on it.

However! If a breeder could show me that these dogs had the working ability a shepherd should have, solid nerves and temperament that this breed 'was' so highly respected for, that they were using different lines and not constant inbreeding or lowering the breeding pool (causing a lot of health concerns), followed GSD standards (obviously there'd be 1 color fault in their occasional off color pup.... but still kept size, and conformation correct), AND perfect health and testing throughout their program..... then I have no problem with them being there. That would mean they were not breeding solely for color and still respect at least the rest of what this breed is and was created for.

Since I've rarely seen these "off" colors working, or being health certified..... I've yet to feel this way towards any of those' breeders'. Could it be possible? Not sure. But, I am open to one of them proving me wrong.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> There ARE breeders out there who breed "off" colors but with an emphasis on working ability... who title their dogs, etc. Usually, these dogs are produced randomly... products of parents who carry the genes for it but their drive and temperament outweigh potential faults.


Different colors can pop up..... and THOSE are the ones that sell them at a lower price because they have a fault. 

(We had a pup at training a while ago who had a few white markings on it's paws.... great working prospect. It happens.)



LoveEcho said:


> The breeders who breed solely for color, have no desire or need to prove working ability. They select parents solely for the potential for fault-colored progeny. The vast, vast majority pump out "UBER SUPER RARE!" colored shepherds because people will pay a fortune for them without all the work of titling.


These are the ones who sell them for 10x more because they are "Rare".... 

(We had a pup come to training from a 'breeder' who 'specialized' in rare colors. The pup had a lot of white, was "blue", and also had some strange markings..... very weird looking. Cute as a button, but not very GSD. No working ability what-so-ever. No drives, timid, very fearful, and didn't respond well to socialization efforts the owners tried.)


It's how it's perceived and how breed savvy they are.... Oops a Fault, let's look back on that breeding pair again? Or as many in our society like to think.... Oh how cool would it be to have a super rare awesome looking animal to use a status symbol? Those who breed for color-only LOVE to market of that idea... it feeds off of each other.


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

I saw a liver colored Shepherd at a farm in SC that we visited, looking a horse actually. The dog just looked very odd to me, like a chocolate colored GSD, imagine a chocolate lab, but a GSD that color.. looked odd but worked well. He had a lot of drive and paid good attention to the handler and herd but just looked odd... the guy who had him had gotten him for *FREE* because of his color. He said the breeder wanted to cull the pup, but his kids pitched a fit, so he ended up giving him away, to a friend, whom he knew wouldn't breed him. 
Off color working dogs are out there, they're not common, but they do exist. And that' s not the problem. The problem is people who try to SELL these "rare" colored dogs and make a fortune, simply because their color isn't typical.

I honestly don't know how I would handle that situation, if my dog threw a "rare" pup...


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

If you look at the Panda Shepherds website, the breeder where the color mutation originated, she titles her dogs and does health testing. She also has variety in the lines she breeds. 
I don't know about whether they are bred specifically for working ability/lines but I don't think it's far to say everyone who does not do working titles and breed specifically for working dogs is a bad breeder because this would cut out a huge chunk of GSD breeders who do it the "right way" otherwise, and probably would do away with conformation shows.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Whiteshepherds*  
_There are hundreds of GSD's with standard perfect coloring who couldn't work their way out of a paper bag._



> Proves the point - they were bred for perfect coloring, not for work ability.
> __________________
> Lucia


That was my point. 
It's ridiculous to assume that a breeder who only produces panda's, whites etc. is somehow different than a breeder who only produces sables, blacks etc. Some pay attention to temperament, others don't.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

mehpenn said:


> I honestly don't know how I would handle that situation, if my dog threw a "rare" pup...


Place it with a responsible owner who'd give it a good home. Why not? Shouldn't be hard to do. Mention that you've got such a puppy on this board and you'll probably find a very interested owner who _loves_ the color and has been waiting long and hard for a nice, responsibly bred dog to come along with that rare appearance.

No different from a long coat, IMO. Nothing at all wrong with it, as long as getting that rare appearance is not the sole focus of the breeder's program.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Merciel said:


> Place it with a responsible owner who'd give it a good home. Why not? Shouldn't be hard to do. Mention that you've got such a puppy on this board and you'll probably find a very interested owner who _loves_ the color and has been waiting long and hard for a nice, responsibly bred dog to come along with that rare appearance.
> 
> No different from a long coat, IMO. Nothing at all wrong with it, as long as getting that rare appearance is not the sole focus of the breeder's program.


Exactly this.

That's a responsible way to handle it. The dog still deserves to live. I wouldn't cull it, but I would give it highly discounted and on a spay/neuter contract. At that point, I would also take a look at the breeding pair again.... worth the risk and still possible repeat breeding? Or maybe it's time to look for other stud dogs or maybe retire the bitch if she ends up throwing a few? It would definitely be looked into. Either way, the pup still would deserve a good home and there's plenty of people out there that would take a well bred dog within it's breed's standards just not on coat color.

Those who use that as the "goal" of their breeding program drive me insane. Looks are not the most important.... if you focus on that, everything else will be lacking severely.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> There are hundreds of GSD's with standard perfect coloring who couldn't work their way out of a paper bag.


And they're just as detrimental to the breed.

Find me a working panda and everything will be ok. But they just arent out there.

A black sable incapable of work shouldnt be bred or desired, either

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Chicagocanine said:


> If you look at the Panda Shepherds website, the breeder where the color mutation originated, she titles her dogs and does health testing. She also has variety in the lines she breeds.
> I don't know about whether they are bred specifically for working ability/lines but I don't think it's far to say everyone who does not do working titles and breed specifically for working dogs is a bad breeder because this would cut out a huge chunk of GSD breeders who do it the "right way" otherwise, and probably would do away with conformation shows.


Mamy people wouldnt find this to be a bad thing necessarily... 

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