# Dominance, fear, submissiveness?



## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

I normally post every question in the puppy section without ever looking at this part of the forum. But I think this belongs here.

My 10 months old male (Madoc) has recently changed a bit in his approach to other dogs. Because of his leash reactive behavior, I normally evade all contact with dogs and try to keep him at a certain distance where I still have control. Sometimes it isn't possible though. In the past when he got close to any dog (on-leash), he would jump and bark, or the other way around. As soon as he got in front of the dog he would just jump around and play, sometimes putting his paw on the back of the dog, which wasn't appreciated by adult dogs. 

Recently though, he has started to do something else. When certain dogs (I would guess males) approach us, Madoc goes slowly into a half sphinx position while doing a staring contest. I have, on advice from my trainer, a "special" harnas on him, so correcting him is a bit difficult when he does this. Madoc did the same when a Malinois approached us a few weeks ago, when that dog came close Madoc jumped out of the sphinx position towards the Malinois, who (luckily) immediately walked behind his owner. Today a women walked by me with two Labs, one off-leash. That one came slowly towards us (I had walked about 30ft onto a grass field so they could pass without a fuss). I didn't even think to ask the women to call her Lab, I was paying attention to her dog who was very focused on mine. My dog again went into this half sphinx position, the Lab came very close, they both did a staring contest, growled a little, and then the Lab walked away. As soon as he turned away though Madoc jumped towards him and started barking. 
The women told me her dog was bitten on his back two weeks ago by a GSD, needed stitches. Now he's a little weary of GSD's. 

Is this behavior a sign of dominance, fear or submissiveness? I am considering using prong (not only for this). I imagine I have to correct him immediately when I see him staring down another dog or going into this half sphinx position. My trainer wasn't very clear on this though. She just told me I have to snap him out of it.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Yes you should snap him out of it as soon as he fixates on another dog.A prong is an excellent idea.
From reading all of your posts right along from the beginning it really sounds like he's just an overexhuberant puppy.He gets really excited and frustrated when he can't do things his way.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> Yes you should snap him out of it as soon as he fixates on another dog.A prong is an excellent idea.
> From reading all of your posts right along from the beginning it really sounds like he's just an overexhuberant puppy.He gets really excited and frustrated when he can't do things his way.


Yes, I can't wait until the day I can reassure newcomers with energetic pups on this website pure by letting them scroll through all the threads I've started. 
I will buy a prong in two weeks. 
Thanks for your answer!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Henricus said:


> Yes, I can't wait until the day I can reassure newcomers with energetic pups on this website pure by letting them scroll through all the threads I've started.
> I will buy a prong in two weeks.
> Thanks for your answer!


Yes,you can be the wise old sage that nods his head knowingly.Been there,done that,youngsters


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

half-sphinx? Is that like, a play bow: elbows close to the ground, head down, butt up? 

When you say the eyes are staring, what is the rest of the body doing. Is he tense/stiff all over with his tail slowly wagging, side to side. Or is he relaxed, tail wagging normally or wagging quickly/excitedly. How is the tail elevated. Is it tucked? Is it hanging at a normal saber, is it slightly elevated, is it elevated?


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@dogma13
Can't like on mobile, so this is textual "like".









@selzer
I could be more specific about it, you're right. It's not a bow, he goes full body, slightly downwards. He is very stiff, ears facing forward. Don't think his hair goes up on his back during this, but I can't be sure at this moment. His tail is definitely not wagging quickly. I would say very slowly and definitely elevated, but how much and how slow, also can't be certain. 
He does not lift up his lips or growl, he's mostly just very still, until he jumps that is.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Henricus said:


> @dogma13
> Can't like on mobile, so this is textual "like".
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that sounds like your dog is getting ready to write you a lawsuit. I would probably consider a basket muzzle in public, up the training, up the leadership, break the eye-contact immediately, and manage, manage, manage this dog.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Or one could just be a step or two ahead of the dog......sounds like the undesired behavior has plenty of predictable precursors which could be taken advantage of.......

SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog is 10 months old. Just stepping in front of the dog will work for now. But that dog, if it is intent on attacking another dog, might catch you at the wrong time, will become more powerful, and likely will become even more intent on attacking. A basket muzzle lets the dog breath and prevents accidents and injuries. And maybe, with training and maturity and possibly altering, maybe down the line, that will become unnecessary.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

I appreciate the concern. I will definitely bring this up again with my trainer and ask her opinion. At this moment he cannot touch a dog if I don't want him to. He has a double line on his harness and a collar with a handle, I can still lift him of the ground with one hand. I'm upping the training and I will introduce a prong asap for better correction. 
People generally already are a bit careful of my dog. There have been some cases of dogs getting bitten by GSD's in my neighborhood. I don't think the muzzle basket will have more function then to scare people off even more at this moment. I haven't even seen one in more than 20 years. But if at any moment I feel this is exacerbating, I will take every step necessary to prevent an incident. I understand my limits.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

this muzzle won't scare people


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

but seriously, this is something that i can relate to after i walked my dog today at a local park

i have a 5m old male GSD, and this is my first dog in my life and i am not a good trainer

there weren't even that many people today at the park but he would stop at every stranger sitting on picnic tables as we passed and would go crazy. he weighs 49lbs right now but if he is fully grown, i can tell it's gonna be a handful if i dont get him straightened out quickly

he was so bad today that i had to cut my walk short and take him to another park where we had more room to ourselves

i was actually thnking for awhile about getting an E Collar and just use it on "vibrate" setting. i got this idea because my dog had a bad poop eating problem and figured i would vibrate his collar whenever he would get close to his poop


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@Pan_GSD
Haha, that's a funny muzzle! 

I would say to not walk that close to people. Many of the things dogs do are natural to them, completely normal behavior in a dog's world. But we humans do not want certain behavior. The more he has the possibility to do it, the more it will become a habit. I would say, train him at the right distance where he can focus on you and not be distracted by his surroundings. Do very short sessions. It will take some time, but you will be able to move closer. 
He's a little puppy, 5 months is very young. Don't stop or lessen the training when you think he is doing better, just keep at it. 
Can't say anything about the e-collar, I have zero experience with it.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

Henricus said:


> Can't say anything about the e-collar, I have zero experience with it.


i was looking into the "off leash K-9" schools located nationwide and have learned that they all use E Collars
but they don't use it until the dog is at least 5 months old or above

this is my very first dog so i have no experience in this stuff so I have more researching to do about E Collars, and I'm aware of the negative reception to the tool from many dog lovers
it's simply an option that I have planned for the future IF needed
i think when it comes to "to the second" feedback, nothing will beat it


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

what is your training school's name/organization? I am familiar with NL and also speak the language


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> what is your training school's name/organization? I am familiar with NL and also speak the language


I thought so before. You once suggested me to go to a Martin Gaus school if I recall it right. 

I trained at Hondensport Hoogkerk, at the Active Dog Care part of it where they give basic obidience etc. They are officially a training club for Dutch Shepherds (ipo), but they have a subdivision for other breeds. I wanted to train there, but I'm not allowed yet due to my dogs reactive and the lack of contact we have, which is required for obvious reasons. 
I stopped going there 1.5 months ago, because it wasn't working with my dogs reactivity. So I 'train' with one of the instructors privately. I say 'train', because we've only trained once. I mailed her for a second appointment though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pan_GSD said:


> but seriously, this is something that i can relate to after i walked my dog today at a local park
> 
> i have a 5m old male GSD, and this is my first dog in my life and i am not a good trainer
> 
> ...


This is your first dog, and you aren't a good trainer, yet. Do you have a real live trainer, got that pup in classes? Because you don't need an e-collar. You need a good set of training classes with a good trainer, who can show you what you are doing right and what needs to be fixed. 

If you cannot handle the puppy at 5 months old, you need to have someone experienced who can show you. 

Gadgets can improve some stuff and can also cause problems. Serious problems. Because you still have to have basic skills, to use those collars. You have to be disciplined to have success with the collar: Timing, realistic expectations, follow through, no repeating commands, don't give commands you cannot immediately follow through with, body language, consistency.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

selzer said:


> This is your first dog, and you aren't a good trainer, yet. Do you have a real live trainer, got that pup in classes? Because you don't need an e-collar. You need a good set of training classes with a good trainer, who can show you what you are doing right and what needs to be fixed.
> 
> If you cannot handle the puppy at 5 months old, you need to have someone experienced who can show you.
> 
> Gadgets can improve some stuff and can also cause problems. Serious problems. Because you still have to have basic skills, to use those collars. You have to be disciplined to have success with the collar: Timing, realistic expectations, follow through, no repeating commands, don't give commands you cannot immediately follow through with, body language, consistency.


reading your comment made me worry a bit about the future of my dog

yes even at 5m, when he was going crazy, at one point i thought my leash clip would break. i have a leather leash and a harness so i believe they are strong, but the clip would be the first to go if the dog becomes strong enough.

i found this message board when i was researching about raw feeding but now i think i have to expand my focus a bit to training



when you train, do you use positive reinforcement techniques? or do you use punishment/corrective techniques? 
as in, you observe unwanted behavior, you give dog feedback with some physical correction, and reward once dog exhibits positive behavior
what do you do if the dog does not obey at that first instance?


for example, say you are walking down the street, you see a person and a dog walk towards you. your dog becomes alert and you sense tension on your leash. you pop the collar. but dog ignores you and still pulls forward. you pop the collar harder with a strong voice command. dog goes ape and starts barking and jumping

what do you do?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pan_GSD said:


> reading your comment made me worry a bit about the future of my dog
> 
> yes even at 5m, when he was going crazy, at one point i thought my leash clip would break. i have a leather leash and a harness so i believe they are strong, but the clip would be the first to go if the dog becomes strong enough.
> 
> ...


First of all, a harness is not your best bet. I use a martingale -- which is like a prong collar, but no prongs. It is NOT a correction collar. It prevents the slipping of the collar, so I believe it is safer than a flat collar. It tightens like a prong, around the neck, so I think it could be safer than a choke chain. But a leash pop would be totally ineffective. 

I am not a positive only trainer, because I do think dogs need to know if they did not perform something correctly, or are doing something you do not want. But I obviously do not use leash pops. Normally, I do not have a collar or lead on the dog. Normally. I use my voice, "Eh!" and then I tell them, "My Garbage" or, "Gentle with my fingers" or "knock it off!" 

When I am actively training the dog on lead, I pay attention to the dog. The moment the body language changes, I tell the dog, "LEAVE IT" and will adjust my path so I do not appear to be going away from the other dog, or turning around, but I am keeping that distance intact. 

When I give a dog a command, like SIT or COME, and the dog doesn't comply, I immediately help the dog get into that position and then I praise. I do not give a command in training that I cannot immediately enforce so the dog does not get the idea that they can make that choice. 

I do not stuff treats at the dog. I will use them occasionally in the first set of dog classes, but I wean the use of treats and use praise to reinforce that the dog did something right. 

When we discipline our tone, our body language, our timing, our consistency. Our dogs respond to our leadership. They want to get the "Yes, good girl!" In training if they do not get it right, I might say "Eh." and then try it again. Or I will help them assume whatever position, and then give minor praise. Good Sit. Because they did do it. 

I have a bunch of dogs. It works for me. I rarely have to physically correct a dog. I don't like yanking a dog to get it to listen to me. I prefer to tell the dog what I want it to do, rather than react to what it does. I also prefer to set a dog up for success and praise the success, than to set it up for failure and punish it for failing. 

I have a bitch who likes to scrap with my other bitches. I trained her a couple of classes in her first year and got her Rally title, and then quit any training with her. After a trip to the vet when she was about 5 years old, to get the drain out of her ear, I stopped at the park, and seeing another car there, I left her on lead, and we went for a walk through the woods Coming back over the soccer field, I saw a Yorkie-mix in the middle of the field. The man was up under the pavilion, and I thought maybe he had a long line on the dog. 

He did not. I just told Ninja "LEAVE IT" and then "HEEL" and she walked at my heel halfway across the field and over to my car and waited for me to unlock it so I could put her inside while this little mutt was circling, barking, and lunging at her. 

She's never had any type of correction collar on. People are way too quick to go to the prong, go to the e-collar. We need to discipline ourselves. Most of these behaviors are on the owners not the dog. Why is the dog going berzerk? Because it does not have confidence in you to protect it. Will yanking on a prong collar or buzzing it with an e-collar make that dog trust you to protect it? No.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

thx for the response

so what i gathered from yoru post was i need to come up with a "universal" command that will tell the dog to "disengage" or "lose focus" and pay attention to me. and i will also come up with a "negative word" that will tell the dog a behavior is not what i was looking for

as far as using the harness, i just thought to myself that a strong breed like a GSD would choke himself if you walk him with a neck collar so i wanted to distribute the pressure onto his chest by using a harness. but i've also read elsewhere that harness isn't really effective for training. i will look into martingale. have heard of it, but never really looked it up so don't even know how it looks like


so one example, let's say i tell my dog to sit in an environment with alot of dsitractions. but he won't listen. if i try to push down on his hip he won't budge. how do you snap him "out of it" by using just words alone? as i said, simply pressing down on his hip, even at only 5m old is very hard. i would have to rather lift him up by his legs, fold them, and THEN sit him down, and he will only spring back up within seconds. so i'm curious how you would deal with a situation like that

people keep saying you gotta use "leadership" skill or be "confident" but they are too vague for me. it's not like i'm walking out there with my shoulder hunched looking at the ground and cowering when i run into people.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Don't push on the hip. Ever. I will pull the leash up a little, and run my hand down the back to where the waist is and give little more than a touch. Usually I can point and it works. But if you go further down the back and put your hand up under, tucking the back legs in, that should work. 

What you should be getting is, you shouldn't have to force your dog to comply. If you are forcing a 5 month old puppy, the puppy is requiring force to get into a position you want, then you are losing the battle here. When that pup is getting close to 80 to 90 pounds, force is going to get even harder. 

You have to change your mindset here. Expecting the puppy to SIT with a lot of distractions is really hard if you haven't worked on that without distractions, if he hasn't got the impression it's optional. Reduce the distractions, move out of an area that has a lot of distractions and work on the commands. Do not have unrealistic expectations. 

I have a puppy out there that is having trouble. She doesn't have confidence in her owners. So she feels the need to protect herself from other dogs, specifically strong bitches. She will bark and growl and lunge at them. Now. They started when she was young with permissive training. Positive Only training that is permissive is a disaster and it doesn't matter what dog we are talking about. If you want to do mostly positive training, that is fine, and it works excellently, but you have to discipline yourself and give the dog a reason to have confidence in you, which means having good timing, consistency, patience, rewards, and management. Well, that didn't work for these people (lots of people have trouble with this). So they went to a more balanced approach with corrections AND they introduced an e-collar. 

I was there with a couple of pups, and there were other puppies of various ages there, and a few adult dogs some of whom lived together, some of whom were acquainted with some of them. But it was a pack of GSDs -- very young and loose in that most of them did not live together. And it was barking, running, playing, craziness. 

Her pup is in a crowd of pups playing and she called it, she says. I didn't hear the first call. The second call I did hear and then I saw the dog physically flinch and yelp. I looked at her and she had the remote in her hand. She explained she called the dog twice and it didn't listen. I told her friend in a later conversation about the dogs, that that could make the dog dog-aggressive. 

Let's break it down. The dog is not well trained on its own, without distractions. She gave a command she could not immediately follow through with that the dog was unlikely to follow. She punished the dog harshly through a collar when the dog was in a group of dogs. These dogs are smart. The dog might associate that pain as her owner's correction. But could be the dog associates with a bunch of dogs milling about playing. 

I hate e-collars because they are so easy to abuse. The dog is not a robot and controlling him remotely is lazy. If the dog is not sufficiently controllable with voice then it needs to be on-lead. 

Getting back to your dog. The harness. Dogs are built with a lot of power. They can be harnessed to sleds and individually pull 600-800 pounds. That is an incredible amount of power. We affix a collar on the dog because it is harder for them to pull from the neck than it is to pull from their shoulders. Some people went further and went to a head halter. I do NOT approve of gentle leaders or halti-collars. The reason is injury, especially if you are one to give leash pops. You can throw the dog's spine out of alignment and cause serious injury immediately or build an injury over time. But, yes, a dog can not pull you down the street by the head. Of course that doesn't mean he might not try. And if the dog is reactive, they might actually hurt themselves trying. 

Teaching a dog LEAVE IT, is just a life skill. Drop a bottle of pills. LEAVE IT, and you clean it up. Little dog running up, LEAVE IT. and then tell the dog what you want the dog to do, HEEL. Now the dog has a job to do. But what is important is the timing. If your dog is barking and lunging at another dog and you say, "HEEL!" the dog is not going to comply and you will look foolish. Like the Yorkie-mix's owner telling his dog to come after I told him that my dog might eat him. Totally useless. The dog did not listen at all. When that guy saw me coming out of the woods across the field, he should have called his dog to him and put it on line, BEFORE the dog decided to do anything. 

I understand that sometimes the dog gets itself into a state before you recognized any signals or saw a dog that might be a concern. In that case, your dog being on lead, just get him out of there -- increase the distance, until your dog can focus on you. 

Train the dog without distractions some focus words. LOOK, WATCH, and reward him for looking at your face, making eye contact. Then when you see a dog at 7 o'clock, you can say LOOK and get your dog's attention on you, BEFORE your dog sees the dog and starts his baloney. When he is really good without distractions, start working closer to distractions. 

As your dog gets fewer corrections -- because you are setting him up to succeed, and more rewards, he will build confidence in you and in himself. Good stuff. Pretty soon, he sees a dog and looks to you to see what you want him to do.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think what'll make you confident is knowing what to do and how to do it...and your best bet to get that is working one on one with a competent trainer.

The other thing about confidence and leadership is follow through 100 percent like selzer said but the catch is that you need some wisdom about what to demand of your dog that is realistic and helpful....deciding you are GOING to follow through on an unrealistic or untrained obedience command when your dog is over threshold and losing his head may backfire.

My personal philosophy is that I don't really exclude any tool or technique from my toolbox, but I do try to be as educated as I can be about the proper way to use them. Correcting a dog at the wrong time/wrong way/wrong tool can escalate a situation instead of helping.

I prefer to use the most amount of reward and motivational training possible and reserve force for situations when I either know the dog is willfully disobeying or situations where what I have as a reward doesn't hold a candle to what the dog could get as a self reward by disobeying (think: deer chasing). It makes a big difference if you have a solid motivational foundation because then your dog is automatically more engaged because All Good Things come from you.

Your best bet I think is to find a competent balanced trainer....someone who really understands how dogs learn and is fair.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

To add to Selzer and CowboysGirl excellent advice, I only wish to comment that not all harnesses work the same. Though the traditional harnesses are as Selzer pointed out designed to encourage pulling, the front ring harness is not. It does the opposite-when a dog pulls, the front-ring harness makes it feel like it is pushing against something -dogs love to pull but not push. I use a front-ring harness and wished I had used it when my gsd was a puppy. For the trainer and classes, yes, that is ideal, but if there are none, like I where live, or it isn't affordable, then one can train one's own dog. In addition to this forum, I do recommend reading, watching you tube videos, and even asking people who you notice have well trained dogs. I can recommend :

the website of the harness I use:

https://dogwalkinsync.com/ 

natural dog training 

Learn the Basics of Natural Dog Training - Natural Dog Blog ? Training and More

article on the puppy & young dog by Turid Rugaas

http://www.anyshade.com/files/The puppy and the young dog.pdf

calming signals - video


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, I agree that people can train their own dog. But even those of us who are working on dog 20 or 30, still often take our dogs to classes. Not because we don't know how to get them to do basic things. But classes provide an outside eye, and they provide the kind of distractions that are most applicable to what most people are going to have to deal with out in the world. Even if you stay at home with your dog, you will probably need to go to the vet. Dogs that can function in classes can function at the vet and will not generally be total spazzes there soley because they haven't been in any situation like that before. 

The other thing is we have a first-time owner with a 5 month old puppy who is having issues. Having someone real who can see the dog and you in the flesh, can hear the tone of your voice, see the timing, observe body language of both you and the dog. For a 5 month old, I would do group classes, not too late to get them in before the dog is totally crazy about all dogs. You can nip some foolishness in the bud. And you won't get that in one on one. But if your go to a large class, there will be less observation and more time hanging out while others are taking their turns. I can make this work for me. 

I think people are intimidated by group classes, there is cost -- cheaper than private lessons, and distance -- sometimes an hour each way or more. But there are also the other handlers and their dogs. Performing in front of others and having your dog do the wrong thing, not know what you are supposed to do, etc. That can be daunting. Don't let it be. Everyone starts at the beginning on their first dog. Some of those yayhoos are on their second rodeo with the same dog. Of course it will sit and stay better than yours does. This is not a competition. The others aren't generally making it so, I think some of us do when we think our dog should be better. And then you have the people who are cracker jacks with their dogs, maybe training for an obedience competition, and their dog looks like it was whelped fully trained. Just do your own thing. They have no more business being there than you do.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

selzer said:


> The other thing is we have a first-time owner with a 5 month old puppy who is having issues.


im sorry but i think things are being taken out of context here. it's true i have zero experience and expertise, but my dog isn't having "issues". alot of the examples and situations that i presented to you, weren't situations that actually happened, but i simply gave you scenarios so that i could learn what to do, and clarify your methods

the only real issue that i have was that one time when i took my dog to a park that I frequently go to, and he was simply barking and trying to lunge at some park employees who were having lunch at the picnic table.

i dont have the expertise to discern whether that was a sign of aggression or simply an excited puppy, but the employees were smiling and laughing getting a kick out of the situation.


i have a GREAT puppy that i love to death, and i'm here to learn from people who have ALOT more experience than me when it comes to raising a good dog. so i just want to set things clear here that i was SIMPLY trying to plan ahead and presented you with some scenarios so i could pick your brain

as far as the e collar, you are looking at a guy who VOWED never to use force on my dog. of course i wasn't able to keep that promise when i whipped my dog, but it happened. and my dog is ALOT better now and very much playful so i dont think there were any harm done. im not gonna go out and buy an e collar and just abuse the S**T out of it to make my dog obey me. that is just not me.

i already stated that i am very aware of the negative perception of the e collar but i still showed interest towards the tool since i am here to get feedback. i understand forms of physical punishment is very looked down upon in european dog training community


anyways, just wanted to set things clear that my dog is very happy, and we have alot of fun together, and i love him

and i appreciate all the lenghty advice and discussion, i really appreciate it


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Pan_GSD said:


> for example, say you are walking down the street, you see a person and a dog walk towards you. your dog becomes alert and you sense tension on your leash. you pop the collar. but dog ignores you and still pulls forward. you pop the collar harder with a strong voice command. dog goes ape and starts barking and jumping
> 
> what do you do?


I guess you learn that inadequate corrections only incite the dog..........I've been pretty much through the entire routine ( reactivity toward other dogs) with my current GSD.....what ultimately made the difference was upping the obedience training big time, getting the dog's engagement and then using a dominant dog collar ( worked much better than an e-collar ) and of course letting the dog know when it has done proper. I guess it all depends on your dog and where you decide to draw the line..........

SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pan_GSD said:


> im sorry but i think things are being taken out of context here. it's true i have zero experience and expertise, but my dog isn't having "issues". alot of the examples and situations that i presented to you, weren't situations that actually happened, but i simply gave you scenarios so that i could learn what to do, and clarify your methods
> 
> the only real issue that i have was that one time when i took my dog to a park that I frequently go to, and he was simply barking and trying to lunge at some park employees who were having lunch at the picnic table.
> 
> ...


I just want to say, that the situation that I called out, on the use of the e-collar. Those people believe they are doing it right and that they are not abusing their dog. Most of the abuse of these collars are from owners who think they are doing the good and right thing. 

Just because people love their dogs, do not mean that they might not do something totally wrong. This is where a live good trainer can be a lot of help.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think Selzer has a good point about the e collar here....when people hear the word abuse I think the connotation can be getting so angry you lose control and do something nasty to the dog. 

So rather than say it is easy to abuse your dog with an e collar my opinion isnthat it is easy to cause damage with an e collar...damage in the sense of unintended consequences, superstitons ect. And what Selzer said...this is NOT a personal judgement of you as a dog owner or person, OP. But more like think of some skilled profession like surgery what what might happen if an untrained person attempted to perform surgery. Not that using an e collar is that difficult because it isn't, maybe someone could think of a more appropriate analogy. Anyway, of course you love your dog, it is just easier to mess up with an e collar than with some other tools.

And when I read what I wrote before, I wish I would have said : I do use all the tools, and i use e collars on my dogs, although with my young male I didn't start him on an e collar until he was over a year and the only thing I have used it for is to reinforce a recall when we spring game on the trail. He lost his offleash privileges for maybe 2 months? Went back to square one, did a lot of retraining with the recall motivationally, ending with some long line corrections on a flat collar to prepare him for an e collar correction....the length of time really dictated by the fact that of course when we were ready for deer I could 't find any and had to wait literally weeks for my final long line proof to be sure it was all good to let him go. He has never vocalized from the e collar, not shown any superstitions, basically he learned if he was slow to recall he got a fair pop on the line and transferred that to e collar. His recall is very good anywhere and all the time except if we spring deer. So in order to get him to fail I basically had to scour the woods looking for deer....but I also carry his ball on a rope ot be sure I have an awesome reward for him if I do call him off game.

The one thing the e collar can do that nothing else can is reach out and touch your dog when it is offleash and even a good distance away. For that I think it is indisensable....for lots of other things including reactivity it is not my go-to tool. 

Plenty of people who don't run their dogs offleash may very well never have any use or need for it. For me...I live on 40 acres in the mountains on the edge of a national forest, sometimes the deer are thick as thieves and we see them daily. There are bear and coywolves. I can't afford to have a recall fail, it is too dangerous for the dog.

But I know of trainers eho use e collars successfully with reactivity so I don't think it is out of the question..l.just something you want supervision with and unfortunately I would even go so far as to say there are trainers using e collars who shouldnt be...just like there are trainers doing everything eho shouldnt be....so vetting your trainer can be a big job


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

You asked about confidence and said you don't slouch, etc. Confidence is something the dog can sense, not posture. You actually judge people yourself by their confidence. Think about when you are deciding on who is going to work with you on something or help you with explaining something. It could be at your job or in trying to decide what TV to buy. The one who comes across as knowing what they're talking about or appears to know exactly what to do is likely the one you will turn to. A confident person can lead. Ironically they may not know as much as the less confident person, but you buy the confidence they exude. When you're working with your dog you're being told to be confident. If you are unsure on what to do that goes 'down the lead' and he senses you're lack of confidence. So now he thinks if you're not sure, not the leader, he will step up and fill that position. Now he's the leader and he is doing what he wants. You're just following along. Confidence can be heard in the voice. It's exact and commanding, it's never asking and it never shows frustration. Frustration in your voice tells the dog you're not in control so he decides he is going to be. I hope this helps you to understand what people are saying.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Deb said:


> You asked about confidence and said you don't slouch, etc. Confidence is something the dog can sense, not posture. You actually judge people yourself by their confidence. Think about when you are deciding on who is going to work with you on something or help you with explaining something. It could be at your job or in trying to decide what TV to buy. The one who comes across as knowing what they're talking about or appears to know exactly what to do is likely the one you will turn to. A confident person can lead. Ironically they may not know as much as the less confident person, but you buy the confidence they exude. When you're working with your dog you're being told to be confident. If you are unsure on what to do that goes 'down the lead' and he senses you're lack of confidence. So now he thinks if you're not sure, not the leader, he will step up and fill that position. Now he's the leader and he is doing what he wants. You're just following along. Confidence can be heard in the voice. It's exact and commanding, it's never asking and it never shows frustration. Frustration in your voice tells the dog you're not in control so he decides he is going to be. I hope this helps you to understand what people are saying.


Regarding "confidence".......I remember somewhat turning the corner with my dog's reactivity when I would search for other dogs instead of getting uptight that my dog would lose her crap if we encountered other dogs...... Confidence cannot be faked IMO......most dogs will see right through you.


SuperG


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

SuperG said:


> Regarding "confidence".......I remember somewhat turning the corner with my dog's reactivity when I would search for other dogs instead of getting uptight that my dog would lose her crap if we encountered other dogs...... Confidence cannot be faked IMO......most dogs will see right through you.
> 
> 
> SuperG


You're exactly right, SuperG. It can't be faked. It's something that has to be worked on and it doesn't come overnight. Whether it's being confident in learning a new job, a new sport or in training a dog, it takes practice, more practice and learning to believe in yourself.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> I was paying attention to her dog who was very focused on mine.


When meeting another human person/dog person - pay attention to your own behaviour first of all. Scared people, people who are ready to defend themselves and especially those who tell you something unpleasant - must be *totally ignored*, as well as unwanted dogs. Even if it seems to you that your dog doesn't watch you - in fact, he does. Virtually, *your puppy copies you* *and your behaviour* in such instances: if you talk - he would be inclined to bark, if your voice intonations are self-protective he will support you aggressively (thus you are unintentionally are training him aggression), and if you were focused on that dog - he would be focused too. Then, try to remember, if you said anything to your dog when approaching that dog. Better not to say a word to your dog, any shooing, word like"Drop it!" "Stop it!", "No", any negativity in words from you - would only help to escalate his reaction. If meeting another person was desirable, instead, you could have turned your back to that dog, blocked with your body space between two dogs , intonations of your voice with the owner should have been very slow and relaxed, and, definitely, you shouldnt have been watching that dog yourself (say you could have kept on turning your gaze in the distance).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is why when you complete your first rodeo with a challenging dog you are a veteran. Let's say 10 years. But you learn the most in the first few years. After 3 years with a challenging dog, it is like you have an awesome dog. And the pup after that challenging dog, he is like a dream. Why? Is it because you got _that_ pup from an awesome breeder and his genes are so much better? Or is it because without realizing it, you have your body language down, you are confident, you having your timing down, your expectations for the pup are in line, and you are relaxed. 

When I had Frodo. Talk about a death grip. I had a death grip on that dog wherever I took him, when I took him anywhere. Now, perfect strangers can turn in my driveway, and I can let my dogs out of my door or out of my kennel and with no collars, no leashes, we can go up and greet them. Then, I was afraid my dog would bite someone. Now, I would be shocked if my dog growled or snarled at someone. 

You cannot read about experience. You have to experience it. And an easy dog, well it's nice to ease into dog ownership. But, once you have experienced a challenging dog, well it makes you grow. So yes, that next puppy is a dream. And yes, maybe you did your homework this time and got a great pup from a great breeder. But you cannot take that experience out of the final answer. Lots of folks get great pups from great breeders and have trouble with the pups.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> ...this is NOT a personal judgement of you as a dog owner or person, OP.


Whoa there cowboy, not that I'm personally offended or anything, me being the OP and all, but the answers to my question ended about 20 replies ago, lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> When meeting another human person/dog person - pay attention to your own behaviour first of all. Scared people, people who are ready to defend themselves and especially those who tell you something unpleasant - must be *totally ignored*, as well as unwanted dogs. Even if it seems to you that your dog doesn't watch you - in fact, he does. Virtually, *your puppy copies you* *and your behaviour* in such instances: if you talk - he would be inclined to bark, if your voice intonations are self-protective he will support you aggressively (thus you are unintentionally are training him aggression), and if you were focused on that dog - he would be focused too. Then, try to remember, if you said anything to your dog when approaching that dog. Better not to say a word to your dog, any shooing, word like"Drop it!" "Stop it!", "No", any negativity in words from you - would only help to escalate his reaction. If meeting another person was desirable, instead, you could have turned your back to that dog, blocked with your body space between two dogs , intonations of your voice with the owner should have been very slow and relaxed, and, definitely, you shouldnt have been watching that dog yourself (say you could have kept on turning your gaze in the distance).


 
Yes, it is discipline. When we have a baby puppy, and someone comes up and tells us we are doing something wrong, or that when he grows up he is going to kill your children. We have to master ourselves and not allow our dander to get up. Because the puppy is a little set of antennae. He's taking EVERYTHING in. He is taking in your smell and your tone, and he is taking in the other person's smell and their tone, as well as actions. And if we let big black feeling billow up in us around strangers, it will unsettle the puppy. We aren't perfect and sometimes internally we cannot suppress anger or fear or frustration. But we must master it quickly and recover. Even if the person calls your beautiful sweet puppy a Nazi that should be killed, we need to turn the corner and shut it down for the puppy. That's why having a good response in reserve for any occasion can be effective. Like, "And you can go directly to $%^&, do not pass go, do not collect $200." Move on, and let it go, because you can't walk around fuming and foaming without that puppy being worried. It's discipline. 

I just noticed that I was totally focused on strange humans, rather than strange dogs. Probably because I look at the human behind the lead. Will he have his dog under control, or will he let that dog on that flexi run right up to us. I do not always have the same dog with me. So I have to mentally pay attention to what is about, while considering which dog I currently have. But you're right ignore them. And if your dog does react, don't hang around, keeping the dog in the situation while you lament/commiserate/apologize (unless your dog connects). I know it seems rude, but sometimes you have your hands full, and prolonging situations isn't good for them or you or the dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Henricus said:


> Whoa there cowboy, not that I'm personally offended or anything, me being the OP and all, but the answers to my question ended about 20 replies ago, lol


Your post morphed into something more than one situation. I think that's pretty kool. I know it happens on a lot of posts. But people are reading and information is flying and there is life in this thread.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> We aren't perfect and sometimes internally we cannot suppress anger or fear or frustration.


Please, dont say that. In the presence of your dog you are not allowed to appear any other than calm, bold and in a good mood. if you are not in reality - you have to pretend that you are.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> Please, dont say that. In the presence of your dog you are not allowed to appear any other than calm, bold and in a good mood. if you are not in reality - you have to pretend that you are.



Dogs can smell fear, sense and smell other emotions. You can't pretend and fool them. As Selzer said in his next sentence " But we must master it quickly and recover." That is one of the keys to learning the steps of confidence. When I had my PPD I had to teach myself to get over my being uncomfortable in crowds. I was good in dog show crowds, but other crowds gave me anxiety. I couldn't fake not being anxious, and my anxiety put her on high alert. Pretending I wasn't didn't work. I started forcing myself to go into smaller groups, walking through them until I could do so easily. Her being with me helped me in that. But I could not pretend and fool her. She sensed it, smelled it, knew it. The same goes with any dog and person with it.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

selzer said:


> Your post morphed into something more than one situation. I think that's pretty kool. I know it happens on a lot of posts. But people are reading and information is flying and there is life in this thread.


Yes it's brilliant. Humans engaging with each other, sharing wisdom and making each other and therefore the world a tiny little better. Couldn't think of life without the internet anymore. It's awesome.
@WembleyDogsUK
You're absolutely right, but you're not realistic. To control (or in some cases suppress) ones emotions is not something everyone can do simply because it's the best thing to do. Depending on what's on your plate, a small every day thing can push you over your breaking point. 
I would put it differently; never take more than you can handle when working with animals or children.
Besides, I couldn't fool a dog even if I wanted to.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

Henricus said:


> Whoa there cowboy, not that I'm personally offended or anything, me being the OP and all, but the answers to my question ended about 20 replies ago, lol


Henricus !! I apologize !!!

Just trying to pick some brains here and learn a few things :wink2:


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

thx for the responses everyone

here's one of the videos that piqued my interest in E-Collar





now my dog is NOWHERE like that so this wasn't what interested me in possibly using an e collar

my curiousity stemmed from my dog eating his poop and i wanted a device where i can INSTANTLY give feedback to my dog when he approached his poop. as i originally said, i think when it comes to "to the second" feedback, e collar seems to be one of the best tools, as cowboygirl also said


anyways, i've been looking into the "off leash k-9" schools here in the states, they got east coast, west coast, central, all over. and they all seem to use e collars, but only after the dog is at least 5m or older



anyways, agian, sorry to henricus for hijacking the thread

to everyone else, i'm learning


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Pan_GSD said:


> Henricus said:
> 
> 
> > Whoa there cowboy, not that I'm personally offended or anything, me being the OP and all, but the answers to my question ended about 20 replies ago, lol
> ...


Haha, no need at all to apologize man! I was just kidding around with cowboy girl about her comment.  Like I said, it's awesome to see people engaged with each other.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> Dogs can smell fear, sense and smell other emotions.


Yes, of course, it is not adrenaline that smells. Actually, we can look at human as a series of biochemical reactions: every our thought, every emotion - is a result of that or other biochemical reaction. But, you wouldnt argue, that our body language comes first of all. You can play a king of the world in front of your dog and master that role until it becomes a habit. As you said yourself, confidence comes with practice. Practice your bodily movements, they shouldnt be abrupt and hasty, confident person doesn't do odd "spare" movements, doesn't bend his spine or put his head down when walking, doesnt giggle nervously and never ever raises his voice at his dog. Bodily language and voice could be rehearsed and played, though you should know a lot about it. Some of this language is typical to dogs, not to humans, for instance - keeping your chin up and looking sideways means "friendliness". That is what happens, in order to train dogs human verbal commands we have to speak doggy bodily language to our dogs first.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> e collar


E-collar kills brain cells. It is a drastic measure. Have you payed thousands in fines already? What, your dog is killing other dogs or injuring small kids? E-collars are a commercial issue, everybody wants you to torture your dog for nothing training you to press buttons. In reality, in order to train your dog anything (I mean, absolutely anything), any dog - you need no leash and no collar whatsoever, nothing. E-collars exist for dudes, prong collars may speed up training only in hands of a professional trainer with a great experience. Anyway, public interest in e-collars is unhealthy and should be discouraged.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> E-collar kills brain cells. It is a drastic measure. Have you payed thousands in fines already? What, your dog is killing other dogs or injuring small kids? E-collars are a commercial issue, everybody wants you to torture your dog for nothing training you to press buttons.* In reality, in order to train your dog anything (I mean, absolutely anything), any dog - you need no leash and no collar whatsoever, nothing. * E-collars exist for dudes, prong collars may speed up training only in hands of a professional trainer with a great experience. Anyway, public interest in e-collars is unhealthy and should be discouraged.


Wembley will you please share your training resume with us?

Do you have videos or links showing successful performance, working, or sport dogs that were trained without use of a single tool or leash or collar, ever?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> Please, dont say that. In the presence of your dog you are not allowed to appear any other than calm, bold and in a good mood. if you are not in reality - you have to pretend that you are.


Once upon a time, I had a litter of puppies, my first litter of puppies. And I had read lots of books and I was going to do everything right. I read The Art of Raising a Puppy by the monks of New Skete, and I was ready. I loved the puppies. 

I was very careful with them. I played with them, and I made sure I was very happy all the time. I kept them 8 weeks and had never raised my voice. 

Babsy and Jenna I was keeping and my sister was going to take one, but she backed out at 8 weeks. Great. Well, the first two pups went home at 8 weeks -- there were 7. The third went at 9 weeks. Good. I took them to the Berea Children's Home Halloween Party. They were really good, the four of them. This was working great. That day, I drove the puppies to a potential buyer and he took the fourth puppy. Which left Cujo, Babs and Jenna. 

Mom then told me she wanted Cujo. We decided I would keep him until I neutered him, way too early and he would go home at 14 weeks old. Two or three times he spent the day with Mom. Then he was neutered and given to them. Then Dad found out that he was the owner of a 14 week old GSD that he did not want because he was leery of the breed. 

Dad's voice, irritated, angry, frustrated, upset, is a whole lot different than Susie's voice when she is being extra special careful to keep any annoyance or frustration out of it. Well, to make the long story a little shorter, Cujo was flat out scared of my dad. He got over of it. And he was a great pet until he died. But it took time. 

And, I realized that puppies should not be sheltered. I let myself be a little peeved now and then. I let them hear me spout about things. 

But this is at home where everything is very familiar and momma and littermates are right there. It is not accompanied by any painful acts. So it just is a matter of fact. 

So, yes, our dogs should be able to manage our moods. They are actually great at handling our moods. But when they are meeting new people and new things, we have to control ourselves. Because if we are timid, our dog will be timid, or they may try and lead and will often make bad decisions. If we become angry or fearful, our dog thinks that whatever closest to us is making us angry or is scary, and they are not sure if they need to do something. Some will cower, some will react, some will act -- often not a good decision. The reactive dog is generally a lot of noise and posturing. Of course if whatever they are reacting to does not back off, and continues to be perceived to be threatening, because there is no escape route, the dog will attack, most likely. 

If we can discipline ourselves to get over anything quickly our dogs will look to us, see that we are now ok, and business as usual.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

WembleyDogsUK;8135137you have to pretend that you are.[/QUOTE said:


> Not gonna cut the mustard......
> 
> 
> SuperG


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> E-collar kills brain cells. It is a drastic measure. Have you payed thousands in fines already? What, your dog is killing other dogs or injuring small kids? E-collars are a commercial issue, everybody wants you to torture your dog for nothing training you to press buttons. In reality, in order to train your dog anything (I mean, absolutely anything), any dog - you need no leash and no collar whatsoever, nothing. E-collars exist for dudes, prong collars may speed up training only in hands of a professional trainer with a great experience. Anyway, public interest in e-collars is unhealthy and should be discouraged.


Who's brain cells?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Henricus said:


> Whoa there cowboy, not that I'm personally offended or anything, me being the OP and all, but the answers to my question ended about 20 replies ago, lol


Ok so that was directed at whoever was saying they wouldnt abuse their dog with an e collar....when I read it I thought it was op


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> Please, dont say that. In the presence of your dog you are not allowed to appear any other than calm, bold and in a good mood. if you are not in reality - you have to pretend that you are.


Well then....I am the worst dog owner ever lol. 

I oticed something back in my horse days...whatever it was was ok as long as you didnt lie about it. Faking freaked them out. But I remember going out to do turn in one night and I was just at the end of my rope from a bad day. So of course they ran from me and didn't want to be caught or cooperate. Every one was acting up. So I started talking to them. "Guys, I have had the worst day ever!! I really just feel like quitting and never coming back right now." A d so on...confided all my troubles to them as I put everyone away for the night a d you know they acted like puppies after that.

Now dogs aren't prey animals so not exactly the same but I dont think they need to be sheltered from our real reactions.

Certainly if you are petrified of walking your dog by other dogs you better address that. We arent robots. If I find myself getting worried about the outcome in dog training I take a deep breath, prepare, and visualize success


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> E-collar kills brain cells. It is a drastic measure. Have you payed thousands in fines already? What, your dog is killing other dogs or injuring small kids? E-collars are a commercial issue, everybody wants you to torture your dog for nothing training you to press buttons. In reality, in order to train your dog anything (I mean, absolutely anything), any dog - you need no leash and no collar whatsoever, nothing. E-collars exist for dudes, prong collars may speed up training only in hands of a professional trainer with a great experience. Anyway, public interest in e-collars is unhealthy and should be discouraged.


I don't agree with this. 

I also dont care for the overuse of e collars but using that dog in the video as an example: if that dog was on the verge of being given up because it was so out of control and untrained, now owners are happy with it and keep it and do stuff with it, then I am all for it.

I absolutely do not advocate for people to keep a GSD and work with it so little that at age 1 it acts like the one in the video. I also am not a fan of training using the amount of pressure/aversive that had to be used on that dog to achieve the results shown in that video. But I am also a realist and I know there are pet homes who just need quick results and they just arent going to do more work....


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Ok so that was directed at whoever was saying they wouldnt abuse their dog with an e collar....when I read it I thought it was op


I know. I made a joke, but probably a lot funnier to myself than it was in reality.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ah, how one story brings another to mind....

Yes, your dogs can handle you when you are not happy. But don't EVER leave your dog in the care of a vet tech or groomer when she is displaying irritation. I included vet techs, and that probably isn't fair. I have never had a dog abused by a tech that I know about. And, nowadays with cameras recording everything, and everyone wanting to be a whistle-blower, especially when it comes to animals, a tech abusing, being irritated with your dog probably is rare. Probably. But if you aren't there, than you cannot protect your dog. 

When your dog is in another person's hands, it is already usually a little off -- Where is my Susie? Is she coming back? Who is this person? If the person is displaying negative feelings that we humans can recognize: irritation, frustration, impatience, then the dog is noticing 100 times what we are noticing. Dogs do not speak to each other but communicate through body language, which makes them experts at recognizing body language. We don't hold a candle to them at that. And their olfactory is 1000 times what ours is or some crazy number like that. We know we spew bad breath when we are nervous, but there are probably plenty of smells that our systems make that dogs pick up on. They know when we are grieving, they know when we are excited. And they know when we are angry, frustrated, irritated, upset, and afraid. 

So, handing your dog over to someone who is giving you bad vibes is like handing your two year old to a scary clown. And then leaving the building. The dog is looking at this stranger who is giving off every indication that they are going to do something really bad. And their person is gone. Sink or swim buddy. But with a scary clown with a chain saw. 

Ok, my story was about a groomer. The dog, Heidi, did great. I was watching, but hiding so that she wouldn't know. The lady had her up on a table and people were pressing into her with dogs in their hands to get by her and she was fine. She was around 1.5 years or 2 years old. She had been groomed by people other than me before, but never there. 

Well, anyway, the lady went across the room to answer the phone, while my dog was tied by the neck on a grooming table. She slipped off the table and was hanging by the neck, and two other groomers rushed over and put her back on the table. She seemed ok, so I did not interfere. The woman came back and brushed her out, and then took her in the back room to bathe her. 

When she was done, I came in and the hag asked me where I got her. I told her she was mine, I had her sire and dam. She said, "Well, she is really nervous, she is the most nervous German Shepherd she has ever seen." Ok, I had this pup since birth. I took her to classes. She got her first title at the IX Center full of dogs at a little over a year old. She was easy to manage, easy to train, easy to live with, beautiful, sweet, and I could go on and on. She never acted frightened of anything with me. And I did not see it that day, but I must admit my defenses were up. 

I said, "She was fine with all the people and all the dogs and all the commotion." She said, "But when I took her back to bathe her, all she would do is lie down." 

I was angry. I took my dog out of the grooming parlor, and took a lap around the store with her. She seemed fine. But I walked back into that parlor and said to that woman, "maybe my dog was afraid, because you dropped her off the table." The woman said, "She jumped." 

What???? 

I just left. I did not respond. I called her manager but that went nowhere -- she took her part. Whatever. I've never been back there. You do not put a noose around a dog's neck, put them up on a table, and then leave them to slip or even jump off that table so they are hanging by the neck!!! Yeah, I am still mad. Heidi is 10 years old, so it has been a while. 

Never leave your dog with someone who seems angry or impatient or frustrated or irritated. I am lucky that, the encounter really had no negative effects on Heidi. A dog with weaker temperament might have had more trouble getting over it, especially when her owner was fuming all the way home -- an hour at least.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Stuff like this is precisely why I dont like other people handling my dogs, especially out of my sight. I feel like if I screw something up they are more likely to understand it was an accident. They know what "I'm sorry" means unless I am losing my mind

I think I am a little unhealthy about it....but whatever at least I know I am messed up. I had a vet tech decide to stuff my dog in a corner in the weirdest restraint technique I have ever seen. And she is SO easy, she has never misbehaved at the vet in her life, wouldnt growl or bite no matter how far you push her. She didn't understand what he was doing, neither did I, and she panicked. She started fighting to get away, struggling as hard as she could. So I went over and interrupted and said something like "what do you want her to do, I'll help", and stuck a cookie in her face and got her to calm down and do whatever weird thing he wanted.

She does behave better for her ultrasounds without me...happily I really like that vet and trust her and I really feel fine about that.

Stumbled upon a vet I really like finally for our primary vet and he is totally open door, doesnt mind owners being present for anything but also he is just SUPER chill and always relaxed which is ideal for me all around being a worry wart too. Not only is he relaxed but he has not tries to exploit my worrying for his own benefit (trust me I can be talked I to mst any tests with the right scare tactics)

This guy looked at a little lump on her the other day....felt just like the ones I found on my old male, had lots of them needle aspirated and they were never anything. So I felt this on her and assumed it was that. He felt it, confirmed what he thought it was, I cant remember what you call those fatty lumps on an old dog. He said, I'll aspirate it if you want but if it were my dog, I wouldnt bother.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

As some of you know, I have owned a lot GS and bred quite a few. My experiences with my dogs acclimating to knew environments or being fragile to my moods or feelings are markedly different. I often talk about that worried look in the eyes of the dog, my dogs don't exhibit this. It is alright for a dog to initially desire you not to leave them somewhere, but as soon as you leave the GS trait of resilience and confidence should remain. I had a student last night that has a Malinois that is very soft that lamented to me about how his dog is so confident and reliable at home but he can't understand the lack of focus here at training. I gently reminded him that with softer dogs, a change in environment or people outside their pack causes stress that causes anxieties, lack of focus, unsureness with others.( This dog is in their ninth week at class with all training being food driven and no corrections at this point) 
There is a reason that most black and red SL dogs in Germany are titled only on their home field. This is also one of the reasons so many SL breeders in America have to send their dogs to Germany to be titled; because of the scarcity of trials and clubs, most dogs have to trial at least one or two of their titles on " unfamilar" fields. This would cause major problems for many of these dogs in terms of new field and unfamiliar helper. 
My point is I try to be vigilant about dogs only being bred that have that confidence both home and away.( both parents) Because a lack of confidence of a dog in new environments or around new people is a red flag for a dog being bred. I never allow what my dog does at home cloud my judgement about their temperament. Familiarity often gives impression of false security. A breedable dog should always show confidence and stability in new environments and people.
ps This doesn't mean said dog that doesn't isn't a fantastic family pet, but if we are ever to reverse the decline in temperament in the breed, ( aside from genetics) we must eliminate breeding less than secure dogs; in environments other than our home/kennel.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The confidence on a good dog does remain. Even when some hag lets the dog hang itself. 

I think what I was originally talking about was socialization of a youngster. I think this pup is 5 months old. I think because dogs are so in tune with body language and moods that when they leave their home footing, and meet strangers, they will let their senses guide them in how they should react to strangers. If their human is relaxed and confident, the puppy can explore the new situation easily. If their human is tense and nervous, timid, the puppy is getting signals that tells him to be alert. If their human becomes angry it can also make a pup uneasy, especially if it is prolonged. Of course if their owner is a natural leader, who the pup has perfect confidence in, then the puppy (especially one this young) can be totally unconcerned with their owner's emotional state. 

Frankly, I think a lot of reactive behavior is brought on by owners rushing their puppies out into the world before they get a chance to become comfortable with the puppy, and then they are so concerned about doing it right or how their dog is going to act that they transmit this uneasiness down the lead, and the puppy soon learns that it can get what it wants, space, by acting a fool. This is why experienced dog owners often have no trouble with their puppies and young dogs. They aren't broadcasting to their youngsters that they should be scared out of their wits.


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