# acute onset of foot knuckling over and hind end weakness



## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Max, my five year old adopted/rescued GSD has JUST begun with left hind foot knuckling over and hindquarter collapsing. He was fine this morning when I woke up and, because we had a good freeze last night with frozen ground, I tossed a ball about six times for him before he lost interest. I then ran some errands and, when I got home and let him out, he was noticeably different than this morning and it did not improve with a little bit of time and walking around in the backyard.

We will be at my vet's office in the morning when they open at 8 a.m. Any thoughts or recommendations? I know about degenerative myelopathy and, because Max is a shelter rescue, I know nothing about his genetics. The acute onset in a young adult dog is what has me confused at the moment. Suggestions appreciated greatly.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

your vet is your best bet, it could be 'anything', may be a disc? could be DM, honestly, it could be just about anything..

One of my males had spondylosis (fusing of the spine, rather like DM),,he showed no real clinical signs until one day, he took a flip in the back yard..xrays showed the 3rd portion of vertabraes fused as solid as cement..He was 7years old 

Please keep us updated and hoping for a good report that it's nothing serious


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

WVGSD said:


> Max, my five year old adopted/rescued GSD has JUST begun with left hind foot knuckling over and hindquarter collapsing. He was fine this morning when I woke up and, because we had a good freeze last night with frozen ground, I tossed a ball about six times for him before he lost interest. I then ran some errands and, when I got home and let him out, he was noticeably different than this morning and it did not improve with a little bit of time and walking around in the backyard.
> 
> We will be at my vet's office in the morning when they open at 8 a.m. Any thoughts or recommendations? I know about degenerative myelopathy and, because Max is a shelter rescue, I know nothing about his genetics. The acute onset in a young adult dog is what has me confused at the moment. Suggestions appreciated greatly.


I lost a dog in November to DM. When it was happening it seemed like it was way too fast, but it wasn't that fast. Because I had never heard of it before this happened it is likely I missed some of the early warning signs. I hope all goes well with the vet tomorrow!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am going through similar with grim and we have covered all kinds of possibilities in that thread......may give some things to make a list and ask about......i sure wish you a quick simple resolution.....


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

My dog did what you described, and then he collapsed and could not walk. He had a very bad Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever infection, a tick disease. Please check for tick diseases. The treatment is doxycycline for a long time; we treated my dog for maybe three months. He took months to recover and the vets were not sure he would recover at all. 

It also could be a spinal embolism. There is no real cure for that, just time to heal. 

Anyway, I hope it is something treatable.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Spinal embolism would be my guess, it's called "FCE". 

Affiliated Veterinary Specialists : Clinical Insights from AVS

You need to get him in to the vet ASAP however, if he is to regain use of his back legs.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Max has not gotten worse or better during the afternoon. He ate his dinner with his usual enthusiasm and is sleeping on the living room floor now. We will be at my vet's office door when they open in the morning. I also plan to ask for the tick panel as suggested although I have not found a tick on any of my eight dogs in many years. We will rule out as many possibilities as we can and I will probably also have an x-ray done to see if anything is going on with his hips and lower spine. 

Thank you for your replies.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The FCE won't be able to be seen except w/a myelogram.
Good luck. Update us tomorrow.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

The nearest specialty vets are four hours away - either in Columbus, Ohio or in Blacksburg, Virginia and both require referrals. Tomorrow morning can't come soon enough.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Be careful with a myelogram, it is very invasive and it can cause problems.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Max is with my vet now and I will join him in 90 minutes for an exam after my vet finishes with his morning surgeries. I gave Max three doses of oral Prednisone since the onset of the acute neurological changes yestserday and, so far, he is no worse. His temperature at bedtime was 101.8F and he was able to rest and go to sleep last night. 

This morning, he woke me at 2:30 a.m. walking around the bedroom and that was music to my ears as it meant that he had not lost control of his hindquarters and his ability to ambulate. He was able to go up and down the 9 stairs to the backyard this morning and ate, drank and stooled as is his usual morning routine. The fact that he has bowel and bladder control and can climb stairs is encouraging. His left hind foot is still knuckling over and he is still weak in the rear, but he is able to ambulate safely and his affect is bright and happy. 

With any luck, I will know more later today.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Things I posted on Grim's thread - in addition to the tick and FCE...I always like to have a list of possibilities and ask my vet to explain why they don't fit. 

How does his neck seem? How is his front end? 

I know the back/spine/disc stuff can show up with this kind of thing. 

Cushing's/Addison's. 

Then all of this stuff: Motor or Motion Problems - VetInfo

And of course other things we will not speak of. (Cancer causes these symptoms)

It might be nice for a PT type vet to give him a going over, too.

More: Back Pain Causes - Back Pain Center - Everydayhealth.com

I saw someone posted a link about Wobbler's too, that and Cauda Equina are things I know nothing of, just that they exist.

Blood work might tell something. GOOD LUCK.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Back from the vet's office and the diagnosis at this point is an FCE or spinal embolism. We did two x-rays of Max's spine and there does not appear to be any narrowing of the disc spaces or spondylosis. Max still has altered neurological responses in that he won't turn his back feet over when they are turned so that the top of his foot is on the floor surface. No fever and really no pain response that we can elicit. He really likes the vet's office cats, however. No problem moving clumsily when there is a cat in front of him . 

The treatment is time and a short course of the steroids. Max has inflammatory bowel disease and can't be on much in the way of non-steroidals, so we are going to just do a short course of Prednisone and see how he progresses. I already have Max on both Dasuquin and Duralactin Canine for his elbow dysplasia and these won't hurt him now. 

Max is still able to ambulate, climb stairs slowly, get in to my Jeep with a hitch step, trot a short distance and he even wanted to help us get him on the x-ray table. His affect is bright and he appears happy. 

Thank you for all of your suggestions and advice. It means a great deal.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

How did he make the diagnosis of FCE? I sure hope you get fast recovery and complete resolution.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm glad he's doing so well, that is encouraging. 
Our dog developed an FCE (which is kind of a "ruled everything else out" dx) and he was completely down. We had to have him put to sleep


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm sorry that Max is having problems. Is there a canine rehab facility nearby? I would imagine that water therapy would help expedite his recovery. 

The article I read said that steroids were only indicated within 8 hours of the event. How long is he supposed to be on them?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Also what dose of steroids? Grim was given 20mg but that was definitely more than 8 hours after onset.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

That's a huge drawback too. I'd recommend not using it for more than 5 days or so. Dogs can have very bad reactions to pred. and some may not go away (such as feeling perpetually hungry).
Our vets, when dealing with back injuries, recommended muscle relaxants and gabapentin/neurontin for pain. We avoid steroids when at all possible due to the horrid side effects.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

The diagnosis of FCE was made due to the very sudden onset in a healthy adult dog with no previous muscular or neurologic challenges. The x-rays ruled out any obvious disc or nerve challenges and, as stated above, the FCE is a default diagnosis at this point unless there are more or different symptoms. 

The course of Prednisone will be as short as I can make it as I don't want him on it either. However, he can't be on non-steroidals without the fear of inflaming his gut. He is not in any pain that we can determine - even when stretching his spine and hind quarters for the x-rays twice. My vet mentioned neurontin and it is certainly available. I have Tramadol at home for him, yet I too see no indication of pain. If he needs it, we have it ready at home. 

I am in West Virginia and there are no rehab type facilities for any animals around here. When I pick Max up, I am going to ask for more options, but at this time, my location really limits what is available within driving distance.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Completely understand. Our nearest specialists are a minimum of 3hrs. one way. 
Neurontin (gabapentin) is the best for nerve pain but you're right, our FCE boy wasn't in pain either, but he was very down, one leg was stretched out, making crating him impossible. He couldn't walk on his own.
He had poor bowel/bladder control and you could tell he was humiliated by this. Our decision was painful but simple at the same time due to the lack of quality of life when he went down. Our vet agreed at that point, too, but it didn't make it any easier 

PS - we use the gabapentin and methocarbamol (muscle relaxant) in Dachshund back injuries. If they toe under and can't fix their foot back, or start dragging either or both back legs, we do a short course of pred. but I really loathe that stuff 



WVGSD said:


> The diagnosis of FCE was made due to the very sudden onset in a healthy adult dog with no previous muscular or neurologic challenges. The x-rays ruled out any obvious disc or nerve challenges and, as stated above, the FCE is a default diagnosis at this point unless there are more or different symptoms.
> 
> The course of Prednisone will be as short as I can make it as I don't want him on it either. However, he can't be on non-steroidals without the fear of inflaming his gut. He is not in any pain that we can determine - even when stretching his spine and hind quarters for the x-rays twice. My vet mentioned neurontin and it is certainly available. I have Tramadol at home for him, yet I too see no indication of pain. If he needs it, we have it ready at home.
> 
> I am in West Virginia and there are no rehab type facilities for any animals around here. When I pick Max up, I am going to ask for more options, but at this time, my location really limits what is available within driving distance.


PS. When he's back home, feel free to message me for some rehab ideas we've used with our own dogs.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

This morning, in my vet's office, Max could not flip his back feet when they were turned over. I could have cried. He can flip them over when he walks, but not when he stands still.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

But he can walk. That's really something. It's not going to get worse, btw. It can only get better from here, or stay the same but as long as his legs work (to walk) and as long as he has bowel and bladder control, that's way more than our boy had...be grateful it's not worse because it could sure be worse.
Keep him rested for now but when the dr. gives the go ahead, get him moving and keeping his strength up.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

What is the recovery course for this? Is it over time slowly and then rebuilding or is it dramatic. I know when my vet gave steroids he was looking for very noticeable resolution in a few days.

We can still look at Grim (no dx but that is a possibility maybe) and see something is not right but it is MUCH better. [two weeks]


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

The recovery possibility for Max is everything from slight impairment to a full recovery. He is up, walking, eating, happy, trotting around and still very clumsy. The most difficulty that he has is with getting his hindquarters and legs under his body from a lying down or resting position. When he trots, his hind legs go all over the place to the left and right sides. He is happy, trying to jump and his affect is no different than it was prior to Sunday. On Sunday, he was very worried about his physical abilities and, at times, looked panicked when trying to move around. He is noticeably improved from Sunday, yet remains clumsy and with the inability to turn his hind feet over when they are flipped. He hesitates when going up and down stairs, but can still do this and my vet encouraged me to have him continue doing this as it makes him think about where his hind feet are. 

I am thankful that he is doing as well as he is because it is not an option for me to have a 90+ pound dog that can not ambulate on his own long-term.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am so glad to hear this. Please keep us posted about his recovery.


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

Caja had an FCE and has almost completely recovered. We sent her to a rehab place which made her movement much better. She now has made it into the top 100 for GSD's in flyball, which has happened after the FCE.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

WVGSD said:


> I am thankful that he is doing as well as he is because it is not an option for me to have a 90+ pound dog that can not ambulate on his own long-term.


Quite honestly this is why we chose euthanasia for our dog. His impairment was quite a bit worse than yours, my husband could barely lift him and assist him in a sling, and Yaeger would fall over backwards when attempting to have a BM. His urine was leaking all over, he developed a rash rather quickly from that. It was felt that he'd heal best being crated and because of everything else and his legs were useless, he'd just injure himself further if we tried. 
It was an extremely difficult decision on one hand but simple on the other. He was traumatized, mentally, as he couldn't hold his bladder (and barely hold his bowels) and it is tough for an 8yr. old dog who has been housetrained his whole life, to be in that position. 
Our daughter, whom Yaeger had taken it upon himself to be "her dog" years earlier, took it hardest, she was 14 at the time. 

We were told also that recovery could be up to 8-10 weeks. But if the dog has less damage than apparently Yaeger did, the prognosis would be fairly good.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

*Update*

When I came home this evening, Max was uncoordinated all over again. He is falling, staggering, has no balance and is partially dragging his hindquarters. I managed to get a call in to my vet just before they closed at 6 p.m. and he told me to give him an increased dose of Prednisone which I did. When his office opens in the morning, we will be waiting for him to walk in the door. At this point, I am beyond worried. 

I was just about to post that Max was recovering and improving before I got home today. He was still "different", but was vastly improved from last week. Now, we are back to square one all over again. 

The worst part of it is that Max knows that something is wrong. His eyes say it all.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

OMG, I am so sorry to hear that. Please keep us posted. I will put Max in my prayers tonight.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I am so sorry you and Max are going through this. You are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

WVGSD said:


> When I came home this evening, Max was uncoordinated all over again. He is falling, staggering, has no balance and is partially dragging his hindquarters. I managed to get a call in to my vet just before they closed at 6 p.m. and he told me to give him an increased dose of Prednisone which I did. When his office opens in the morning, we will be waiting for him to walk in the door. At this point, I am beyond worried.
> 
> I was just about to post that Max was recovering and improving before I got home today. He was still "different", but was vastly improved from last week. Now, we are back to square one all over again.
> 
> The worst part of it is that Max knows that something is wrong. His eyes say it all.


I am so sorry.
Has he been on reduced activity or just free-roaming?
Part of the recovery of back injury involves intensive rest.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am really thinking of you. I know some of how you feel right now. Keep care of yourself!


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Max is, thankfully, a very low energy couch potato German Shepherd and activity level consists of hanging out in the house with a few trips to the backyard for potty breaks. He has an indoor/outdoor heated/air conditioned 4 x 12 foot kennel in my attached garage that he stays in during the day while I at work alongside four of my other dogs. When I am home, he is just hanging out on a dog bed in the house with my husband and me. 

He is slightlly better this morning with the higher dose of Prednisone last night and again with breakfast this morning. Still very unstable and falling down, but able to eat, drink and go to the bathroom unassisted. We are off to the vet now. At this point, I am concerned that this is more of a spinal cord nerve issue rather than a spinal cord embolism. I am also nearly certain that we will be traveling to a veterinary neurologist in the near future.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i wish Max a speedy recovery. there's no limit to driving
when on the road to good health.



WVGSD said:


> I am in West Virginia and there are no rehab type facilities for any animals around here. When I pick Max up, I am going to ask for more options, but at this time,
> 
> >>>> my location really limits what is available within driving distance.<<<<


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Max and I are now at the vet specialty hospital in Columbus, Ohio. In another hour or so a neurologist will see him. Max is now basically unable to use his hind legs at all. He is deteriorating further and we are where we need to be for neurosurgery.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

:hugs:

I can't find a praying one or I'd use that 

It could be anything but keep in mind a spinal cord injury is just that, something has compromised the spine, either a disc rupture or something that has compressed into the spine (even tumors can do this) impinging on the nerves there.

Keep us updated...


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am going through this with my Riley right now. The coldest night of the winter he just plopped down and could not get up. He sceamed when I tried to lift him. I spent the night outside with him, keeping him warm with blankets. Since then it was up and down, but it seems to be stabilizing and improving slowly. It has been two weeks and he is doing better. The vet told me that he did not have good experience with gabapentin. He is on pred twice a day.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Who didn't have a good experience, the vet, or the dog? 
We've seen wonderful results with it and a friend was using it with her dog before the dog passed on.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Max has a slipped/ruptured intervertebral disc. He is staying at the specialty clinic until Saturday and will have his laminectomy (surgery) today. They are going to do a myelogram plus or minus a CT scan and will then take him straight to surgery. As much as I did not want him to have a myelogram, waiting for an MRI would have delayed surgery as there are already dogs scheduled and they can only do three each night at the Children's Hospital in Columbus. 

He deteriorated yesterday while we were at the clinic, but the neurologist was very hopeful that he would have a good recovery as he can still move both legs on his own when they get him up with a sling around his abdomen. 

They will call me this afternoon after the surgery is done to give me a report.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Fingers crossed for a good surgery and full resolution.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

All energies concentrated in sending the best vibes to Max


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Hoping all goes well. From what I have heard, you are at the best place possible in the East for this surgery.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Beaming positive thoughts to Max - please keep us updated.
How scary!

The vet did not like the gabapentin, but I will ask him again. Do you know the dosage? A human friend of mine took it too, but did not like the side effects.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Dodgerslist: canine back problem, disc disease, IVDD, ruptured, herniated or slipped disc helped me a lot for our dogs with IVDD. We've had fosters with it too. We have 4 dogs right now (Dachshunds) with IVDD.
I might stress that any dog can experience it, but Dachshunds and long-backed are somewhat more prone to it.


Gabapentin for Veterinary Use 

01 Gabapentin (Neurontin) - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

Prescription Painkillers for Dog Arthritis User Guides Part 2 ? Gabapentin | Dog Arthritis Blog


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/178191-back-injuries.html

I posted this yesterday hoping it might help any dealing with back injuries, especially the links.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks for the info!


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

I just came back to my desk from lunch and there was a voice mail message from the surgeon that there is a problem with Max's myelogram. When I called back, the surgeon was already scrubbed in on another surgery and no one can tell me anything. I just want to scream!!!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Sure, I hope it helps.
But I did write it from the perspective that we can't really afford a back surgery, but also to let people know it may be an option to crate the dog and give meds for 6-8 weeks until the back has healed.

The reason this is somewhat of a passion to me is that too many people rush off to the vet, and when told the dog needs surgery to the tune of some $3k plus, they give up their pet, or euthanize it.
We most recently had a foster w/a back injury, whose owners had done just that, and we rehabbed the girl and you'd never know she'd had a back injury if you didn't have the vet records. She recovered that well and was running and playing after her 6-8 weeks confinement. 
The owners did not know it was an option, and/or (we were told) didn't want to fool with giving her meds and the confinement.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

I just got the call back and Max has an aggressive spinal cord tumor. Life expectancy is less than one year and, with a spinal cord tumor, you can't really cut much tissue away to debulk the mass. The surgeon explained that he would probably still have difficulty walking even if we went ahead with the surgery and might also have trouble with elimination after the surgery due to the fact that the tumor will grow back and the surgery itself would injure and irritate more tissue than just a disc excision. 

I gave permission to euthanize him without even waking him up. He will be cremated and returned to me. Now I just wish that I was not thee and one-half hours away. 

God speed to the Bridge my beloved boy. I tried, I really tried.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I am soo sorry. I am in tears for you. I always wish I had something more to say, but words escape me. Max and everyone knows how hard you tried and if they could be saved on love alone.....many of us wouldn't be or have been in similiar situations. I hope you find some comfort and peace in knowing that you did the best for him....too bad that often means the hardest for those of us that love them. You have my thoughts prayers and utmost respect for loving your guy so much.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh my gosh. I am so very sorry.
I was afraid that's what the diagnosis was going to be


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh gosh I am so sorry for your loss. I'm glad he passed in peace rather then wake up and experience more pain and suffering. Rest in peace Max.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I"m so sorry, Shannon. You gave Max a wonderful year filled with love.

RIP Max. :halogsd:


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am so very sorry, I came back to this thread hoping for some good news. He was so young...
He was lucky to have you in his life, run free at the Bridge handsome...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Noooooooo I am so so so so sorry for you. <hugs><tears>


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

He was a beautiful boy!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r-above-breed-standard-dog-2.html#post2132570


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

I am so sorry! I've been reading about this for a while, and was hoping it would be a better outcome...=[


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear this. My thoughts are with you.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Fourteen months was not enough time to love you, big guy. I wanted so much more time to show you what a good life was really like. 

shelter photo December 2010


the day that I adopted him - Dec 22, 2010



Dec 22, 2010 - so very thin


sleeping during Super Bowl - Feb 2011


April 2011 and almost healthy


May 2011 after training class


Last summer in my backyard


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

Oh..... I'm so, so sorry for your loss. This is so very sad to me. He looked like a very happy boy.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

He was a beautiful boy and you gave him such a good life while he was with you.
When you posted the one about his eyes telling you so much, I was so afraid for you and him... You gave him his dignity by letting him go with no further loss of his body function that he would not understand.
Prayers for you .


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am incredibly sorry. What a horrible thing. You did all you could for him. 

If you would like this thread moved to the other section, just hit notify. I am really sorry.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm so glad he had you for the time he did. 
:hugs:



WVGSD said:


> Fourteen months was not enough time to love you, big guy. I wanted so much more time to show you what a good life was really like.
> 
> shelter photo December 2010
> 
> ...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I am so very sorry for your loss.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am so sorry. I have been watching this. I hoped it would have a better outcome. You did all you could for this boy, and the photos showed what a good time he had with you. Sometimes the kindest thing we can do is to let them go without any pain. But it is so hard.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i'm so sorry. rest in peace max, bless your heart. 

he was SO lucky to have been with you. take care.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am so very sorry for your loss. What a wonderful, handsome dog he was. I hope you will take comfort in the memories you shared.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

What a gorgeous, happy boy! I really think that God takes the best of them early. Of the so many possible diagnoses,why did he have to end up with the one that is not treatable? It is unfair.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

I am so very, very sorry :hugs:


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## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

There are no words to adequately tell you how sorry I am for your loss. I know how much it hurts. We lost our first german shepherd to DM and it was beyond heartbreaking. Its unbearable to say goodbye to our furry best friends. I couldn't stop the tears as I read the thread. As someone else said, they always seem to take the best ones first. I hope you find comfort in knowing you were so lucky to have each other for the time you did. You were chosen to be his mom and you did everything you could for him. I hope you find peace in the happy memories you have of him and know he is waiting at Rainbow Bridge for the day he will see you again. :hugs:


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