# Secondary Sex Characteristics



## cassadee7

Can someone explain what is desirable in males vs. females re: secondary sex characteristics?

If you can post photos of dogs showing these characteristics that would be great too!


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## Fodder

its basically... masculine vs feminine. not so apparent in GSD as oppose to lions (manes), buck/deer (antlers) or peacocks (color+feathers)... but there are things like a larger head and a broader chest. with so many different bloodlines it does make it a tad more difficult. for instance the head on an american showline male isn't likely to compare to the head on an east german working line male (imho).

my male is 3 and lacks most of these typical traits. he often resembles females and/or puppies.

eta: he's the black and red dog on the right. when people learn that i have a male and female - Gia is without a doubt always mistaken for the male initially.


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## elisabeth_00117

I personally think that Stark has great secondary sex characteristics.

He has a very masculin head (and hopefully body once he is done growing), so did his father.

I am no expert in any means, but to me secondary sex characteristics would be a masculin, blocky head, muscular-stockier body.

Stark









Shep (Stark's Sire)


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think I will add to the confusion-this is Nina. She had a male head, I always thought. She was 11 I think in this picture-it says birthday, I think it was that one. I loved her look. I am not that knowledgeable so maybe she's more feminine than I thought.


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## Cassidy's Mom

When we were out places with Dena & Keefer, people would often comment on him being a male and her a female, even if they had never met us before and didn't know that we had one of each. I think she (on the right) definitely had a more feminine head, and he has a blockier big boy head:










That picture is from almost two years ago, and he's more filled out now. Although he's lean, he's quite broad, where she was always long and slender.


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## BuoyantDog

Nina looks like Glory, a female. Glory tends to have a more slender head and body, but I'm not sure if this is a female characteristic or not.


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## elisabeth_00117

There is no mistaking Keefer for Dena. Dena has a much more femine face and is more "danity" looking. Keefer has a nice blocky head too.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I agree Elizabeth. She was actually longer so she looked as big as him, but he's wider and outweighed her by around 8-10 pounds.


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## ShatteringGlass

it basically means that when you look at the dog, you dont have to look at the plumbing to tell whether its a male or female.


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## Brightelf

Here's Grimm when we were living in Germany. He is a male, here shown at age 2, not yet filled out. You can see masculine blocky head. 

Headwrinkles and doofy expression are extra.


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## SunCzarina

On a male, bigger head, bigger chest and definitely a bigger butt! Otto has a big red bum that I think gets bigger every week. When his chest comes in he's going to be massive.

On a female, the standard says exactly what I want to see in the head - feminine without coarseness. Personally I prefer a finer bone, not scrawny chicken legs but more graceful and flowing.

Otto and Moon, she floats when she runs, he bobs. From this picture, he looks much more massive than she is. That's all the secondary characteristics at work - she's 23 1/2" tall, he's a little more than 25" tall.


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## cassadee7

Thank you for all the wonderful pictures and explanations! I totally get it from the photos, especially Dena and Keefer because they look so similar except for one being masculine and one feminine.

Thanks so much!


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## Kayos and Havoc

The standard requires the secondary sex characteristics to be distinct. You should be able to tell if the girl dog is a girl just by looking at her. 

In some lines this is blurred and is a fault in the AKC standard. 

I can't post pictures here but all my dogs are easliy distinguished as male and female just by looking at the head.


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## elisabeth_00117

These are some of my breeders dogs, same colours and same lines.

Female



























Male



























You can see how the female looks more "danity" than the male.


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## lhczth

Two littermates at 9 months. Can you tell which one is the male? I have very good heads on my females, but next to a male they still look like girls.


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## cassadee7

Lisa,
Black is male, correct? The big snout gives it away


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## lhczth

LOL Yes, the black is a male.


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## DianaM

BEAUTIFUL photos of GORGEOUS dogs.









Is it just me or do the dogs (males) have an expression of "Doof doof doof" whereas the bitches have an "I can see through your soul" look...







Nina DEFINITELY has that piercing look in that photo!


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## Brightelf

"Doof Doof Doof"? Gee... I can't IMAGINE what you might mean







by that...







I don't know any male canine Doofuses...


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## lhczth

Male, female, littermates


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## DianaM

Ahhh yes, the strong, powerful, masculine face of supreme intelligence and cunning.









(That is the BEST photo ever!)


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## DianaM

Lisa, I love how your females definitely look feminine but still are strong, sturdy, and solid.







How a GSD bitch should be!


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## lhczth

Vala is built like a brick s*** house. LOL I always liked solid females.


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## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf"Doof Doof Doof"? Gee... I can't IMAGINE what you might mean
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> I don't know any male canine Doofuses...


yeah, I don't know any of those either...


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## cassadee7

This has clarified in my own mind why I have kept thinking I want a male GSD. I have only had males. I like a tough, masculine looking GSD. I don't really want a "girly" looking dog as much, if that makes sense. But then again I was a mother of four boys and no girls for 15 years so maybe I am just used to all the testosterone!


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## Xeph

Here's my male/female comparison:


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## JKlatsky

Not the best picture, but these are siblings and a good female/male comparison.


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## cassadee7

I love all the pictures on this thread. I can definitely tell who is the male and who's the female in those last two. I hadn't realised how different they look, but once you start paying attention it's prety obvious!


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## Fodder

ha... am i the only one with the "role reversal" and might i ad, the only one who _likes_ it


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## Xeph

> Quote:I can definitely tell who is the male and who's the female in those last two


Strauss has a rather large cabeza, or as some have said "He has a head like a Casaba Melon!' LOL


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## phgsd

Here is one of my girls who has a very masculine head. I like her head more than a lot of males I've seen!!!


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## Xeph

I don't find her head to be masculine at all, but I do think it is quite proper for a bitch







She doesn't give the appearance of masculinity, but she isn't overly refined at all.

I don't think I'd mistake her for a boy


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## GranvilleGSD

Here are my pups. Black and tan female, sable male.


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## GSD07

I love the pictures! Beautiful dogs!

Here's my example. They are young here, two years old on the left and a year old on the right, but I think it's already obvious who is who


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## Heidifarm

This is an interesting thread. I never really thought about it before, but when you see them all side by side like this - you really can see the difference!

And I love all the pics of the beautiful dogs! 

Here's my example:










Girl on the left, boy on the right...


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## elisabeth_00117

Your dogs are beautiful Karen, and no mistaking your dogs. 

BEAUTIFUL!


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## Heidifarm

Thanks Elizabeth. Stark's head reminds me of Lucas - big and manly!


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## mjbgsd

Cody and Isa. Cody almost always gets mistaken for a girl.... But I love his head, lol. 










Depending on angle, he can appear to have a bigger head


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## kelso

I think the secondary sex characteristics can be really interesting between dogs. And then when you get into the different types of GSDs ect .. sometimes it can be quite obvious and other times difficult to see.

Crappy picture(s), but I still think it shows a difference between male and female, Allie, female (left) Kelso, male (right)
Kelso is W. German workinglines, have no idea what Allie is (from rescue)




























Again, Allie, female (left) Kelso, male (right) She (Allie) probably looks a bit more masculine here than she actually does in person, and on the flip side Kelso actually probably looks more genteel than he really does in person. Pictures can really be deceiving









Besides the head and front shots there is always structure from behind! hehe Kelso (left, male) Allie right (female) Sorry wet from the pool in this pic, But he just looks more "boxy"


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## Chris Wild

Boys should look like boys, and girls should look like girls. As someone else said, you shouldn't have to check the plumbing to tell what gender the dog is. I do like a heavier head on a bitch, and don't care for a fine "bitchy" head on a female, and certainly not on a male. But a bitch can have a good head and still be feminine.

Many people have said that our Kali had a head like a male, but while she did have a pretty beefy head for a bitch, IMO she still looked like a girl. Even compared to Kaiser who doesn't have a particularly masculine head compared to many males.


Kali


















With Kaiser


























Raven has also been accused of having a head that looks like a male.


















But again I don't think so. For comparison; her full brother Wulf.


















Ray and Wulf together


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## pinkanml

A lot of people mistake Sasha for a male and it drives me crazy. She looks pretty feminine to me, though her head isn't "bitchy," but I prefer strong heads. She IS built like a Mack truck in front and is on the larger side for a female (she's currently on a diet). I have no idea what lines she is from, but I'm guessing Am. Show/BYB cross??

This is an old photo of her next to Nico:










Today (she looks a bit more feminine to me here):



















I see too many male Shilohs with feminine heads, so I really like how Nico turned out. People rarely ask his sex, though I can understand when non-dog people wonder, as his belly hair is quite long.

Nico today:



















I love the working line head and physique, especially Kelso and Chris' girl Raven (I think her head is perfect)


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## Liesje

I love doggy heads on bitches, lol, I wouldn't care if all GSDs looked like males.

I think Kenya has a nice bitch head though. No mistaking her for a male. For one she is 22" and 50lbs.


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## robinhuerta

STRONG, feminine heads are my pref....but I also love a "doggy" female head. I would rather look at a female dog and ask...? is that a male or female?....than to look at a male dog and ask the same....


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## elisabeth_00117

I agree, I like the stronger heads on a female too. I would be more offended if someone asked me if my male was a female than if it were the other way around.. lol.


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## Samba

My male, Enno vom Adler Stein, had a massive head and jaw and yet still chiseled lines. I like a large male head, but not one that becomes bear-like and over done. Enno was never mistaken for a female.










Gala had a feminine look but her head was not small or snipey. Loved to look at her and her look was that of a beauty. I don't enjoy a coarse look in a female head.










The standard calls for definite secondary sex characteristics and I like that too. A female who is clearly a female and a male who is clearly a male. It is something I really like in the appearance of the breed.


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## Fodder

okay... i couldn't resist


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## Myamom

This was my Mya.....temp testing a male at the shelter.........


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## Lynn_P

My comparison 

Dante (male)/ Echo (female) ~ same breeding a year apart.


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## Crookedcreekranch

OK I've got one...SAME BREEDING ...1 1/2 years apart...Female on left ....Male on right


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## Castlemaid

Wow, these last two examples from Lynn and CrookedCreek are some of the best ones to illustrate the difference between male and female. 
It helps so much to see these great comparisons!


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## Crookedcreekranch

Here's another comparison with littermates from different years.








On left side of image male on far left , female next to him, sister from different litter. 
to the right of my daughter male from yet another breeding, dam of all the sables in the photo next to him and then a female on the far right.


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## Crookedcreekranch

OK one more because this was a very interesting topic!

Same breeding female on left , male on right different years


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## Xeph

I would like to take that boy please, k thx







(any of them!)


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## VonKromeHaus

Some once said that Judge lacked Secondary sex characteristics....I don't think so but maybe I'm blind to him.....lol lol 




























What do you guys think?


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## doxsee

Apparently it is fairly obvious. My husband just walked behind me while I was looking at this thread, put his finger on Lynn's Dante and said "beautiful male!" lol What timing!


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