# Epic Fail..........



## GSD2 (Jan 27, 2012)

I saw this vidio on facebook and thought I'd share.......





 

and he was doing so well............


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

that made me laugh! he was ready to do something else!


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## WhiteSpirit (Sep 17, 2012)

omg I'm laughing so hard!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That poor guy, his video is all over the place, but can't help but laugh!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here we go again --- he was not doing so well -- I bet you this man knows his dog and has had issues before - the control you can see is disintegrating in frames 16 to 18 where you can see the man fighting hard to walk forward , almost looks like he has a limp because the dog is pushing in to him , interfering - wanting the decoy. Frame 16 the man could easily have tripped over the dog. By 17 and 18 the man is dragging his leg pushing back hard on the dog to steer him . Once the dog is in platz , the man walks backwards keeping an eye on the dog.

Is this normal -- ? Can't recall - in the trials I am thinking back on the man would pivot and turn to the right and walk away. 

Frame 56 , man starts to tuck his left arm - 58 both arms (hands) are now tucked away from the dog -. Handler moves , dog really pushing against him - frame 102 , 103 the dog does two rapid fire air snaps , 102 the dog is looking at the handler (after the air snap) not the decoy , so right there is a "tell" that the man/handler is a target. If the dog were correct he would have a laser bead on the decoy. Frame 109 the dog keeps looking back from the decoy to the handler's left hand . 111 handler has a sense of what is coming . The dog is not even looking at the decoy he has his muzzle up looking back at the handler who has his left hand out of the way , so the dog reaches across the handlers front and takes a snap at his right hand. Frame 14 left pant leg in mouth - thank god it wasn't more - 
I don't believe it was the first time for this dog to handler aggress.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

LOL-I so don't see that as handler aggression


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

This isn't handler aggression as much as misdirected drive frustration. The dog does not know how and where to channel his drive and goes for whatever is closest, or whatever catches his eye - no, not correct. A good example of dogs that are extreme.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay stand corrected, misdirection - not the first time I am sure -- 
it sure could have turned out worse - 

boxers or briefs ?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

carmspack said:


> boxers or briefs ?


LOL, maybe if the judge hadn't stopped the routine just then we might have found out.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> This isn't handler aggression as much as misdirected drive frustration. The dog does not know how and where to channel his drive and goes for whatever is closest, or whatever catches his eye - no, not correct. A good example of dogs that are extreme.


Yep. Those dogs are easily turned into one or the other direction.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"
LOL-I so don't see that as handler aggression "

not handler aggression in the way that the dog resents or challenges the handlers authority - but a bite is a bite and they hurt. The handler KNEW , had experienced this before , that is why he is watching himself, keeping his hands out of the way. The dog can't contain himself - does the air snaps , prey stare , and tugs at the clothing instead of taking the man down and biting his leg.


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## rphilen (Oct 1, 2012)

oh the malinois.... aka "maligator"..... not to be confused with a GSD.... gotta love the drive, if you know how to channel it...lol


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

carmspack said:


> "
> LOL-I so don't see that as handler aggression "
> 
> not handler aggression in the way that the dog resents or challenges the handlers authority - but a bite is a bite and they hurt. The handler KNEW , had experienced this before , that is why he is watching himself, keeping his hands out of the way. The dog can't contain himself - does the air snaps , prey stare , and tugs at the clothing instead of taking the man down and biting his leg.


 
I still don't see it as handler aggression -you are welcome to see it however you want-my dog does this-I see it as intelligence -she knows treats are in the pocket-she can stick her head in there and pull them out without ever bitting me-this weekend at a show she stuck her head in and pulled out my lip gloss (there were no treats there)-thankfully she has never tried to pull my pants off


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A dog being pushy trying to get treats out of someone's pocke (I actually like pushy dogs like that!), and a dog redirecting frustrated drives onto the handler are two very different things. 

To me, a dog that cannot stay clearheaded when in drive is a temperament fault - my rescue tends to get nippy when in drive like that - does it a lot in obedience when working for a tug - yet no handler aggression in her at all (and she has never tried to take my pants off, LOL).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

holland your dog is just being pushy.
this is totally different , what happens when you loose balance in the animal , selecting for higher and higher prey, coupled with lower thresholds.

what the dog at trial did was to unload on his handler . So then what ? Everytime the dog is in a charged atmosphere the dog is looking release his tension.
A bite is a bite in that it changes the behaviour of the handler who looses his confidence knowing that he will be nailed. This dog in public would unload , out of his excitement , indiscriminantly.
This is a very big temperamental fault .


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree that this dog is not clear. Not sure whether it is just the dog or the handler/training or both (I don't know this dog or this breed). I don't think the handler should be all that surprised (maybe he's not). You can see how he holds his hands he's already had problems with his dog just grabbing at whatever is nearest his face. I don't see this as handler aggression but I don't see it as any better, either.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Some people back in Germany said: "That's what happens when somebody wants a Ferrari and can't handle the horsepower."

Not sure if I would go as far as saying that. Afterall he qualified for the FCI and for that he's had to go through trials with that dog. Maybe they both just had a very bad day. Maybe his nerves reflected on the dog. 
Yeah, you can see how he withdraws his hands which indicates that he knows whats coming but that doesn't mean that the dog has ever ripped his pants off before. 

With a high profile trial like that, I'm sure that the handlers nerves reflected on an already edgy dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

it may be worse because at least with handler aggression the dog targets the handler , the dog that can't cap is like schrapnel - lots of collateral damage . There have been police depts back in the day when Mals were all the rage "the dog to replace the GSD" when jabs used to come out that the GSD was a wannebe Mal etc etc, put their depts k9 units into jeopardy because of litigation from wrongful bites - handlers , fellow officers close enough, innocent bystanders getting the excited prey bites from over stimulated dogs. I don't know if it came down to handling, or selection or both . Probably more of a selection problem - going for the wow of the extreme , getting carried away with the hyperbole. I had the opportunity to be working closely with some really solid , clear , terrific mals in French ring , so acknowledging that not all are like this. 
We need to watch that our GSD sport dogs have balance and clarity.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

A lot of it can be handler related though. 

If you have a dog that is driven already and you can't channel the dogs drive because you are just not experienced or good enough, that can be the outcome.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I've read a fair amount of the youtube comments on this video, and noticed a conversation about if the decoy was in the wrong to pull the dog off the guy. Some say that the helper caused the behavior to be reinforced while others say that the helper acted in a smart way to put an end to a potentially dangerous situation. I have to agree with the latter. I'm sure I'd be stunned- just standing there watching!! That helper acted quickly and smartly, in my opinion. I find that very impressive!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I think helpers, generally, will call the dog for a bite if safety is an issue. I remember a video a few years ago where a dog targeted a person on the sidelines.... the helper there did just what this one here did. 
Also notice the judge appeared to signal the helper.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wildo said:


> I've read a fair amount of the youtube comments on this video, and noticed a conversation about if the decoy was in the wrong to pull the dog off the guy. Some say that the helper caused the behavior to be reinforced while others say that the helper acted in a smart way to put an end to a potentially dangerous situation. I have to agree with the latter. I'm sure I'd be stunned- just standing there watching!! That helper acted quickly and smartly, in my opinion. I find that very impressive!


Who cares if it was reinforced at that moment. There are some Germans who said the same thing. 
Quite frankly, some people should get a grip. Should the helper just have stood by, watching while the dog may have gone over to seriously maul his handler? 
At that point, the only thing that mattered was to get the dog off, no matter how. 
Let them deal with the issue later, at least the handler is unharmed. Maybe shaken and embarrassed and hurt in pride because the video made it around the world and everybody is talking about him and his dog, but he's physically unharmed.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

gagsd said:


> I think helpers, generally, will call the dog for a bite if safety is an issue. I remember a video a few years ago where a dog targeted a person on the sidelines.... the helper there did just what this one here did.
> Also notice the judge appeared to signal the helper.


I didn't notice that about the judge- thanks for pointing that out! Although I'm sure people cringe at videos like this, I think it would be interesting to see the video you're talking about!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

IMO the helper was correct. A world level trial like this is *not* a venue for training so I disagree with the YouTube comment on that. For whatever reason, this routine fell apart. The helper HELPED keep everyone safe. The dog clearly has training issue that go way beyond the helper possibly reinforcing this bad behavior in one trial. I don't know this dog or how it was trained. This could very well be the handler's fault do to bad training and/or nerves so why should the dog be allowed to make dangerous mistakes? You will see the same thing during breed surveys and work tests at Sieger Shows...if the dog is not doing well the helper will feed it a bite. Whether or not this reinforces bad work is kind of a moot point at this level. Maybe the dogs are crap dogs but it's not their fault the handler put them on the field where they could not succeed. At least when fed the bite the *dog* thinks he did well and that's really what's important. I think a lot of people who haven't done this just don't get that even trial helpers who are essentially performing a pretty stagnant routine aren't seeing the same thing dog after dog. Every dog is different and no dog/no handler are perfect so the helpers make judgment calls all the time.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I agree the helper and judge made the right decision -- prevent further harm "watching while the dog may have gone over to seriously maul his handler?" which could have easily happened with a dog over the top getting even more carried away . So technically although the action did not arise out of handler aggression , the handler was still aggressed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

bump


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Where is the video?


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

:rofl:


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

First off, this video is sped up at least 10fps so it was difficult to pickup the intent of the dog... it seemed too quick. I had to watch this a few times to see the subtle details. 

Redirected aggression, toward the handler. Call it venting, call it whatever you want, it is highly undesirable and dangerous when it escalates. Had this not been in the stale environment of the schutzhund field (which a dog at this level should be able to handle with ease) and been a more stimulating environment it would have turned out differently (worse for the handler). Handler was trying to avoid stimulating this response throughout the routine. You could see it. He was stiffly tip toeing through the routine (although the sped-up video did not help).

This is not much different than this classic video which everyone has seen at some point. Perhaps if the stimulus were higher we would have seen this instead (watch at 40 seconds in where the dog who is on a bite is taken off the bite only to attack his handler):






Nothing funny about this in my opinion, have witnessed a man with the same breed have his calf nearly torn off his leg when his own dog redirected on him. Not something I would ever want to see in a breeding program. I have a good friend with Dutch Shepherds that perform similar behaviours. The one, who has never been involved in any protection work becomes so stimulated while tracking that, when he finds a person, familiar or not, at the end of the track, he looks past the ball in your hand to grab you in the chest. NO IMPULSE CONTROL WHEN STIMULATED = Dangerous dogs... 

My question is, how did this dog get to this level of competition in the first place? Yet another reason not to simply breed a dog based on achievements in training (titles). Best to look more towards the merits of the dog and not the ability of a trainer to work with something substandard. Not funny... frustrating.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gagsd said:


> I think helpers, generally, will call the dog for a bite if safety is an issue. I remember a video a few years ago where a dog targeted a person on the sidelines.... the helper there did just what this one here did.
> Also notice the judge appeared to signal the helper.


There was one at NASS 2010(vid has been set to private) where the dog wouldn't even engage with the helper and then started stalking a photographer on the side of the field. Helper and handler couldn't get that dog to refocus. It was hilarious and I doubt the dog would bite the photog, but clearly that dog wasn't 'clear' on what was going on!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I remember that.
Based only on the videos.... The NASS dog lacked confidence and the Malinois lacks self-control. Both, IMO, are serious nerve issues.

Edited to add: and both can be dangerous.


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