# Solution to Strangers Trying to Pet My Bite-Trained GSD



## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

Zeus is in bite-training with an instructor and he's become a bit suspicious about people who directly approach him. The worst are the neighbors who saw him when he was a delightful puppy and think he's still that innocent and approachable. He's NOT!

I'm tired of trying to convince people that it's dangerous to approach the dog and being ignored. Zeus growled at a woman and her daughter who approached him today. I can't take the chance he might snap at someone.

So, here's my solution...the text on the front and back are the same but there's a graphic on the front of a GSD. The text reads:

DO NOT APPROACH DOG!!!

PROTECTION TRAINED!!!

LF


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Assuming people read... But most don't.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*I guess I can just...*



JackandMattie said:


> Assuming people read... But most don't.


...point at the text and commandingly make the demand, "READ THIS".

LF


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sounds like you're raising an excellent ambassador of the breed...a dog that would bite a perfectly harmless mom and daughter.

Protection should only be when necessary...not to keep a 10 foot radius around you at all times because your dog will bite everything in its path.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

I think a harness on him that says do not touch or similar would be a better idea and are widely available online if you don't want to make your own or need an idea. Most people are probably to busy looking at your dog to read what is on your shirt.

I have never had a problem with just saying don't touch the dog and stepping between the dog and the person the same way I would if I was blocking my dog from a loose dog. You just need to get a little rude

I do this with my puppies and strangers all the time and I have never been unsuccessful with making it understood that they are not to touch my puppy and I assume puppies are much harder to resist.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Hehe. You could.

Or you could just raise your eyebrows at the people and sternly say "He's NOT friendly."

Might not do much for the breed's reputation, lol, but I bet it would be pretty effective.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

While I do agree people should not just walk up and pet any dog without asking but I don't understand why your dog is growling at people or deciding who is a threat. That is your job. 

Am I to understand that if I start doing bite work with my dog he will exhibit mistrust and anxiety in all people around him?

Police dogs do not walk around growling at people.

JMHO

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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

I think that you should get a muzzle for him.
If he growled at a kid and a mom who were harmless that's a little dangerous. People 99% of the time won't approach a dog with a muzzle either


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Hmmm...*



martemchik said:


> Sounds like you're raising an excellent ambassador of the breed...a dog that would bite a perfectly harmless mom and daughter.
> 
> Protection should only be when necessary...not to keep a 10 foot radius around you at all times because your dog will bite everything in its path.


Hyperbole.

LF


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I hope you have very good insurance because this is an accident waiting to happen...and that is definitely not hyperbole. 

I don't know what kind of training your dog is getting but if he is growling at people who are not a threat then he shouldn't be getting that kind of training. A clear-headed, confident gsd will naturally protect her/his people when a threat is present. If your dog is perceiving all people as a potential threat then he is neither clear-headed nor confident. If this were so then working police and border patrol dogs would be unsafe around the general public. 

It doesn't matter what type of clothing you wear or sign you put on him. If he bites someone, you will be held liable.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm all for people not TOUCHING your dog because he might have issues with it. But just the fact that he growls at anything approaching him is completely incorrect. I mean...can you really guarantee that a child won't just run by him some day and he won't just lash out and grab the kid?

Sorry...a T-Shirt on you or the dog won't stop people from approaching you when you're with your dog. If I'm walking towards you on the sidewalk, and I see you wearing that type of clothing (which you would need 7 of for each day of the week), I'm not going to inconvenience myself and cross the street just because YOU think you've given me enough warning.

This dog doesn't sound like he should be out in public.

BTW...I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just reacting to your short post/question. If you gave more information on the type of training you're doing maybe I'd think different. But as of now, I'd hate to live in your neighborhood.


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## Odin24 (Jun 29, 2007)

Gee, what a great shirt. You are advertising to all that you know your dog is dangerous. Will make it much easier for them to sue you when it bites someone. Their lawyer will thank you for that bit of help.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

why is a dog like this in this type of training?


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Longfisher said:


> Zeus is in bite-training with an instructor and he's become a bit suspicious about people who directly approach him. The worst are the neighbors who saw him when he was a delightful puppy and think he's still that innocent and approachable. He's NOT!
> 
> I'm tired of trying to convince people that it's dangerous to approach the dog and being ignored. Zeus growled at a woman and her daughter who approached him today. I can't take the chance he might snap at someone.
> 
> ...


Sounds like some ****ty bite training to me... Good luck. Hope the dog won't end up paying the price for his owner's decisions. 

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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Hyperbole*



martemchik said:


> I'm all for people not TOUCHING your dog because he might have issues with it. But just the fact that he growls at anything approaching him is completely incorrect.


I never said anything of the sort. Thye came quickly towards him while he was sitting, leaned over him and reached out with both hands towards his muzzle.

But don't let me interfere with your self-righteous fun.

LF


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*OK*



Odin24 said:


> Gee, what a great shirt. You are advertising to all that you know your dog is dangerous. Will make it much easier for them to sue you when it bites someone. Their lawyer will thank you for that bit of help.


I did give this some thought before ordering the (8) shirts. But I think there's more danger in someone approaching the dog and startling him into taking a defensive move than in anything else.

I'll stick with the shirts. It's too hot down here in Texas and too humid along the coast for him to wear a muzzle and/or a vest.

LF


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Your dog should NOT be doing bite training if he's considering everyone that's innocent a threat. He doesn't get to make that decision. YOU are supposed to. Only balanced steady dogs should be allowed to continue any kind of bite training. He should be aloof and neutral unless needed. This is a very bad situation. 

No people should not be approaching and petting without permission but again, its YOUR decision on who is a threat. He doesn't get to decide that. Highly inappropriate and bad for breed image if he's just growling willy nilly at those he should be neutral with.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

no, you said "approached". sounds to me, your dog does not have the temperament for this type of training. have you gone to a shutzhund club and ask for advice? this can escalate into a serious dangerous problem. has your dog been tested to see if shutzhund is correct training for your gsd. not all gsd, regardless of the lines bred from are suited for bite work. imo, you need more than internet/forum help with this.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Maybe its just me, and the instructor I had, but a dog that growls at anyone who just comes near it, isn't a stable enough dog for protection work. /shrugs


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Actually,*

I'm pretty cool with him being aggressive towards humans outright. He's not but if he were I'd be OK with it.

There's not many of them I'm all that fond of either.

LF


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

good luck with that. troll much?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Did you get those shirts with or without sleeves?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Longfisher said:


> I never said anything of the sort. Thye came quickly towards him while he was sitting, leaned over him and reached out with both hands towards his muzzle.
> 
> But don't let me interfere with your self-righteous fun.
> 
> LF


For the record, you said nothing of the sort in the OP. You said, "Zeus growled at a woman and her daughter who approached him today." This is inappropriate. I think what is more concerning to most is that you not only think this is okay, but you think it is because of the training....and that THAT is okay too....and what a protection dog should be like. Instead of looking for ways to clarify to the dog threat vs non-threat, you seem to actually EXPECT him to be like this. So so so wrong. The rest of this post is not to the OP, but to people who may be looking into training bitework (properly) of any kind and come across this thread. I do NOT think anyone should just walk up to and pet a dog, and this isn't really even about the dog (although lots of people here have fear aggressive dogs, and it could be a question of whether your dog can truly handle the training...or if the training is correct...but that's another thread)...it's that fact that OP thinks/expects this out of the training.

I have now participated and watched SchH protection training, LE training, and protection training. Each and every lead trainer in these areas would NEVER say the dog should or would act this way in public before/during/after bitework...in fact, most dogs exhibiting this in police training would be watched extremely closely and possibly washed from the program(due to..i believe....lack of "clearness" in the dog's mind). The dog is supposed to be confident, aloof, sound, and balanced. He should be CLEAR HEADED (a threat is a bad guy...not a child...NEVER a child...). Bitework should NEVER lead to an out-of-control dog that will bite anything. Sorry, a dog that will growl at an APPROACHING (which is what your OP was) CHILD is NOT under control, NOT sound, and NOT clear headed. OR the dog is receiving sub-par, very confusing, training. Either way...not something that should happen during bitework.....this is just a disclaimer for those that found this post, are thinking about bitework, and this post caused worry and confusion. And hopefully some of the WAY more experienced bitework trainers will chime in here.

And yes, OP....get a vest, muzzle, flashing light headband, T-shirt, shoes...maybe even a sandwich board that keeps people away from your dog. If it prevents an innocent child from being bitten...by all means....sorry...a little defensive of children, especially from someone that thinks that behavior towards one, while out on an innocent walk...is okay...because...well..."they're a PROTECTION dog...".

I know you (OP) didn't ask about your training...but, like someone posted in the "comments about comments about questions" thread. If someone posted on a parenting forum..."how do I get my 10 month old to stop flooding the bathroom when I leave him in the bathtub alone?" People aren't going to flood the OP with ways to prevent flooding via drains/stops/etc...they are going to want to discuss the bigger problem that this issue is a symptom of....a child being left alone in a bathtub....:crazy:


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Longfisher said:


> I'm pretty cool with him being aggressive towards humans outright. He's not but if he were I'd be OK with it.
> 
> There's not many of them I'm all that fond of either.
> 
> LF


 Silly silly troll....mad I fell for it....lol


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

Wow, your post has certainly raised some questions in my mind. I don't really know anything about schutzhund training, but I thought that the dogs were supposed to be gentle until the trainer told them otherwise. Does schutzhund make a dog aggressive? If that is the case then I think only trained professionals - police, military etc.. Should be training dogs for this sport.

In any case I would recommend a muzzle. Nobody. Goes near a dog with a muzzle. Of course I guess that eliminates the protection ability of your dog.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Rangers_mom said:


> Wow, your post has certainly raised some questions in my mind. I don't really know anything about schutzhund training, but I thought that the dogs were supposed to be gentle until the trainer told them otherwise. Does schutzhund make a dog aggressive? If that is the case then I think only trained professionals - police, military etc.. Should be training dogs for this sport.
> 
> In any case I would recommend a muzzle. Nobody. Goes near a dog with a muzzle. Of course I guess that eliminates the protection ability of your dog.


I would ask you kindly to not let the bad apples show schutzhund in a bad light. My IPO3 dog can be around people of all ages. In fact we spent two days at the javitz center during meet the breeds at the GSD booth without a single incident. By incident I mean a growl, not even a bite or bark. We met over a thousand people that day and all were welcome to say hello. But just like anything out there, a few nut jobs give everyone else a bad name  please don't consider the OPs case as the norm but rather the exception. 

Personally, when fearful weak dogs like that come to our club we refuse to do bite work with them. Only stable confident dogs who enjoy the work and can tell a friend from foe and mind the handler get to play ;-) 

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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Rangers_mom said:


> Does schutzhund make a dog aggressive? If that is the case then I think only trained professionals - police, military etc.. Should be training dogs for this sport..


No, a *well balanced, strong nerved* dog that is being/has been trained for bite work is NOT automatically aggressive.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> No, a *well balanced, strong nerved* dog that is being/has been trained for bite work is NOT automatically aggressive.


To be fair, the training plays a big part in it too. Even a well balanced dog, if trained poorly, could become fearful due to lack of clarity, etc.....IMO.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

hahahha this dude thinks he has a badass protection trained shepherd but all he has is a weak nerved unstable dog. 

with that said, the military do breed certain dogs to be human aggressive and want to bite. not for bomb detection but for tracking humans and some are so aggressive they have to be put down after their service because they arent suitable for civilian life.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

As someone else posted - most people will not read your t-shirt, they will be focused on your dog. A vest will help that says "do pet, in training or whatever" but someone will still need to get close enough to read that too.

I think your dog should be able to handle passive approaching, like if you are walking down the street, someone should be able to pass you on the sidewalk. For a direct approach, it seems like you will have to be on guard yourself and put up your hand in the stop position to let someone know not to come too close.

I suppose you need to decide if you want a dog you can take anywhere - that will require a whole new training theory, or keep your current training and have a dog that will mostly remain on your property as a protection dog.

How old is your pup? If it's growling at a very young age this is not good. Our breeder did not recommend bite work until they were pretty much physically developed, I forget because we did not want to do it, but it was around 1 year old.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Your instructor is using too much defense when he should be using prey. I'd ditch the instructor and join a schutzhund club. If your dog is acting like this, either the training is being done too harshly or the dogs not cut out for it. It's not a bad thing. Whats a good thing is realizing whats not working and fixing it. If its the instructor, great! Get a new one. If the dogs not cut out, great! You can do something else, like weight pull, agility, rally, whatever.


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## Odin24 (Jun 29, 2007)

And since you think its ok for your dog to bite people, please check your home owners insurance policy. Most will not provide coverage (exclude coverage) for dogs trained in protection work. The schutzhund clubs I'm familiar with require proof of insurance on a dog before they will let you train with them. So, since you and your dog are a lawsuit waiting to happen, get the insurance you need to protect the innocent person who will become the victim of your dog.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think it's necessary to call this member a 'troll' when he's quite obviously had over a hundred posts here. So STOP with the name calling

With that said, PP training is not schutzhund. 

I do think the OP could be in for a lawsuit if he can't control situations where people just come charging on up to the dog with no regard for his "shirt" or the dog. 

I agree with Gretchen that YOU need to decide what you want out of this dog, when you get it, you have to deal with it and know the possible consequences of inappropriate behavior.

I also agree with what Lauri said, a well balanced strong nerved dog trained for bite work does not automatically equal aggressive. 

If you want to take this dog out in public, knowing it could possibly bite someone your taking a huge risk, as in, ready to lose everything? Dog will pay with it's life

if you aren't 100% sure on how he'll react in public situations, put a vest on him, get a muzzle, wear your shirt, otherwise I wouldn't be putting him in situations where he would react ..

Done rambling, it is what is, people will do what they want.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I just wanted to add that someone who actually does PP work would want a dog people can walk up to without a potential lawsuit. PP dogs are useless if they are aggressive. You go to the store, whoops can't bring Dex he flips out when people pass by on the sidewalk...


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Longfisher said:


> Zeus is in bite-training with an instructor and he's become a bit suspicious about people who directly approach him. The worst are the neighbors who saw him when he was a delightful puppy and think he's still that innocent and approachable. He's NOT!
> 
> I'm tired of trying to convince people that it's dangerous to approach the dog and being ignored. Zeus growled at a woman and her daughter who approached him today. I can't take the chance he might snap at someone.
> LF





Longfisher said:


> I'm pretty cool with him being aggressive towards humans outright. He's not but if he were I'd be OK with it.
> 
> There's not many of them I'm all that fond of either.
> 
> LF


For you to be so concerned about your dog biting, that you would seek out signs, Tshirts with that message. On top of that, inappropriate growling at humans. The dog is not a stable candidate for bite training. A stable dog will not be suspicious of strangers, but aloof, watchful - a far cry from what you are describing.

If your dog is going to snap like that, he should be muzzled when in public, and if you don't want to muzzle him, don't take him out. As far as being tired of warning people your dog is dangerous, get over being tired. It is your job to protect the people around you AND your dog. You fail at your job, it is your dog's life.

Apologies to everyone else for the rant - it is just people like this that makes it harder for those of us who have dogs with temperament issues and works with them


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok. 

They are not going to read your shirt.

An open basket muzzle will not overheat the dog one bit.

Actually a vest won't overheat the dog either; SAR dogs wear them all the time.

Dog's don't sweat. Get one lighter than the dog and it may even help with the heat. But I don't think they will read the vest either. 

You are right. You can't take the chances. I train around patrol dogs sometimes and most of them you really wouldn't know it unless you saw them during training.....they go to schools and get petted by kids etc.

Agree with the others about his behavior not being appropriate.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Rangers_mom said:


> Wow, your post has certainly raised some questions in my mind. I don't really know anything about schutzhund training, but I thought that the dogs were supposed to be gentle until the trainer told them otherwise. Does schutzhund make a dog aggressive? If that is the case then I think only trained professionals - police, military etc.. Should be training dogs for this sport.
> 
> In any case I would recommend a muzzle. Nobody. Goes near a dog with a muzzle. Of course I guess that eliminates the protection ability of your dog.


Where did you get Schutzhund from? The OP said the dog is doing "bite-training" with an "instructor". That does not sound like any Schutzhund training I know of, which is typically done with a club and typically referred to as "Schutzhund training".

Anyway, if this dog is growling and possibly going to bite anyone that approaches his personal space, I would simply not allow him access to anyone other than yourself. Not worth trying to educate people or have to wear T-shirts and vests and muzzles. If the dog is not safe in public, then don't take him out. If your yard is not secure, secure it. Ideally people do not approach your fence and reach in or do dumb stuff like that but we all know they DO so protect yourself and your dog and create a physical barrier that some little kid can't innocently breach.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

well trained protection trained dogs can be approached.



Longfisher said:


> Zeus is in bite-training with an instructor and he's become a bit suspicious about people who directly approach him. The worst are the neighbors who saw him when he was a delightful puppy and think he's still that innocent and approachable. He's NOT!
> 
> I'm tired of trying to convince people that it's dangerous to approach the dog and being ignored. Zeus growled at a woman and her daughter who approached him today. I can't take the chance he might snap at someone.
> 
> ...


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I am confused. I thought protection dogs were supposed to be well balanced and be under complete control. Know when the right time to protect is and be able to switch that off in an instant and go into being a family pet again. I don't plan on getting my dog in it, but I wouldn't think getting an aggressive dog to be in protection would be a good idea.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Pretty crappy training in my opinion. I hope your insurance liability is paid up.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I doubt people will take the time to actually read your t-shirt before approaching the dog. Having something actually on the dog might work a little better, but I'd still be concerned about what would happen if someone does approach and gets bitten. If you want to train your dog to growl/bite anyone who approaches, I'd suggest not taking him anywhere he could come into contact with people (not without a muzzle, anyway.)

If you're interested, you can get mesh vests here if you're worried about the heat:
Mesh Vest

Or you could get one of these:
"Caution" Leash: http://shop.cautionwalker.com/
"Caution" red harness/leash/collar: FriendlyDogCollars Home
"Do not pet" leash cover: https://www.dreysalertdogs.com/product/stop-sign-do-not-pet-leash-cover/http://www.gowiredog.com/stop-sign-do-not-pet-leash-cover/


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## ltsgsd (Jan 31, 2009)

Sometimes when a dog is just starting bitework training they are not sure when and why to bite and will demonstarte this behavior at the wrong times. It is up to the handler to correct this and let the dog know it is not acceptable at that time. The dogs learn quickly and will become stable in there enviroment again, but also just telll people not to pet him and lead him away if they persist. If your dog does not stabilize, you have a problem and will need to be hypervigilant when you have him out to keep people away.


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## ltsgsd (Jan 31, 2009)

I have to say here that many of you have given poor advice to this OP. The dog is just starting and is learning. Until you know more quit bashing the guy. He is asking for help and all you have done is talk about how crappy he has handled the dog or the trainin g is. No wonder people do not ask questions here. Liesje , thank you for a reasonable response!! If you have never trained bitework why answer this question!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

did you miss the part when the dude says hes cool with his dog being outright aggressive with humans?


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## ltsgsd (Jan 31, 2009)

No I did not miss that part. That comes from lack of knowledge on his part. Teach him something dont just throw him under the bus!! I know a lot of men who think it is cool there dogs are so tough, until they learn what they are doing to the dog.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Has anyone gone back and read some previous postings of the OP's? I did.

I don't have a problem with him training his dog for bitework, I DO have a problem with him taking a dog out in public who has the propensity to bite someone and is showing it. 

The OP needs to take measures to ensure the dog is not put in a situation where he could possibly nail someone because in the end the dog will pay if it happens.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I loved the video Lauri posted yesterday in this thread:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...l-protection-trained-dog-how-they-should.html

Calm and balanced yet ready to switch at the drop of a hat, that's what a PPD is to me. What's the point of having a PPD if all YOU are doing is keeping him away from people, a PPD should be able to come *everywhere* with you with no chance of incidents, otherwise how else are they going to do their job?

This is like hiring a private security guard with a gun to follow you 24/7, but having to always having to step in between him and people approaching because chances are he might shoot them for just getting close. Sounds pretty useless to me


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You decide when it is appropriate for your dog to show aggression toward people. If he growls at someone that you don't want him to, correct him and give an obedience command to sit or down. He might just be learning to discriminate. Also, you can simply tell people, don't touch my dog, he is working. If you had kids, would you let strangers come up and touch them? You can't count on a harness or t-shirt. If you protection train a dog you take on a potential liability that you have to be able to manage. Part of protection training includes teaching the dog not to bite at certain times.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Has anyone gone back and read some previous postings of the OP's? I did.


Zeus is also not quite 8 months old (assuming he got him at 8 weeks) and has had some fear issues with other dogs.

I think that is a pretty common age for them to be sorting out friend and foe, too but most take it a different direction and work the dog through it in such a way they get over it. 

What kind of protection training do you do with a puppy at that age? It would ALL be in prey, no?


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

the advice I would give OP is ..make sure you have some **** good insurance...from the way it sounds you are going to be needing it. 

if I were going to train a dog for that. The dog would be kept in the house and my yard. Not taken out to even chance biting somebody. I don't feel I need to be protected out and about. I keep aware of my surroundings and the people around me and know enough self protection stuff that I just don't even worry about it. I'm not putting my dog in that "job" while out on the street. 

sometimes it seems like people feel all "[email protected]$$" when they have a big dog. It's people like that who make our insurance rates go sky high or make it near impossible to get insurance. Not saying this OP is one of those..but the fact he's proud of the way his dog acts makes me think he's one of them


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*I must say that most (not all)...*

...of the replies to my OP have been vindictive, judgmental, uninformed, not seeking information, condemnatory, presumptive and just plain not helpful. You don't know squat about my dog (but for one Gentleman who took the trouble to read some of my other posts).

I did get PM's that were thoughtful and helpful.

We'll proceed with our training and with our trainer. The puppy's got a ways to go on just about everything. I'm confident that he'll do fine and until then I want passers-by to LEAVE THE DARNED DOG ALONE SO AS TO NOT UPSET HIS TRAJECTORY.

AND, I SURE DON'T INTEND TO GIVE UP EXERCISING THE PUPPY IN PUBLIC JUST BECAUSE A BUNCH OF UNINFORMED JERKS HERE SAY SO.

I've made a list of all the jerks in this thread and I'll see if I can put you on ignore. I don't need to listen to a bunch of jerks who pile on just because I post here.

LF


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

boomer11 said:


> did you miss the part when the dude says hes cool with his dog being outright aggressive with humans?


Some people ARE cool with this. I personally am not, but I have family and friends coming and going and have my dogs out in public all the time. Other folks do not care about or even desire a much higher level of social aggression. That is fine as long as the dog is properly *contained* and managed. There should not be opportunities for neighbors and kids to be approaching the dog. That is why I don't really think the shirt, warning patches, etc are really appropriate. Why seek out and train for a high level of social aggression and then try to take the dog out around strangers and keep it from reacting? I won't say the dog is a bad dog or even the training is bad....who knows, it's not my dog so it doesn't have to be what *I* want, but I still think that if the OP is looking for a dog with that level of social aggression he needs to know how to contain and control it.

And yes, protection trained dogs often *can* be approached by "strange" people. Different people desire different thresholds for aggression. My dog's behavior tends to match that of the other, so aggression begets aggression, a person acting suspicious will get suspicion from my dog but not necessarily barking and the desire to bite, people acting completely normal will be ignored.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Longfisher said:


> ...of the replies to my OP have been vindictive, judgmental, uninformed, not seeking information, condemnatory, presumptive and just plain not helpful. You don't know squat about my dog (but for one Gentleman who took the trouble to read some of my other posts).
> 
> I did get PM's that were thoughtful and helpful.
> 
> ...


So why did you even post this thread? You'll see soon enough that the 'jerks' probably have it right....don't shoot the messenger. And please look at the video linked: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...l-protection-trained-dog-how-they-should.html
That is what a protection dog should be like.

Please remember your dog is still immature and not yet able to decipher properly. It should be up to you to manage his choices until he is mentally capable.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lyssa62 said:


> the advice I would give OP is ..make sure you have some **** good insurance...from the way it sounds you are going to be needing it.
> *
> if I were going to train a dog for that. The dog would be kept in the house and my yard. Not taken out to even chance biting somebody. I don't feel I need to be protected out and about. I keep aware of my surroundings and the people around me and know enough self protection stuff that I just don't even worry about it. I'm not putting my dog in that "job" while out on the street. *
> 
> sometimes it seems like people feel all "[email protected]$$" when they have a big dog. It's people like that who make our insurance rates go sky high or make it near impossible to get insurance. Not saying this OP is one of those..but the fact he's proud of the way his dog acts makes me think he's one of them


If you have good training foundation and know how to handle your dog, it isn't a liability...and seldom do you need the dog to protect at home. Out and about is when s__happens.
That said, I don't think having a PP dog is ever going to be at the right place/right time unless you are a person that has a target on your back.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Here's my take on much of the advice given here...*



onyx'girl said:


> So why did you even post this thread? You'll see soon enough that the 'jerks' probably have it right....don't shoot the messenger. And please look at the video linked above. That is what a protection dog should be like.


Benighted, self-important, belligerent, and above all staid and self-congratulatory...but for a rare few here who are intellectually flexible.

Many of you remind me of college kids (I taught biochemistry in a medical school) who become seized with the latest trend they read about in a pop culture journal and then feel their new-found enlightenment allows them to intellectually levitate above the rest of the practitioners who still concentrate on the fundamentals.

Regarding the protection video, thank you. I agree that the dogs in such videos are well-trained OLDER AND MORE EXPERIENCED DOGS THAN MINE. They're also trained beyond our needs.

We need the dog to be aggressive towards humans for a particular purpose. My wife is American born Chinese and my kids are mixed. We saw what the "nativists" and what the government did to the American Muslims in the last 10 years as a result of 9/11. Absolutely shameful. Many lives were taken and many more were ruined.

It appears that our never-avoid-a-conflict government is "pivoting" to Asia, translation China. The moment an American carrier goes down due to American provocations my family will be at great risk.

All are well-trained now in marksmanship and combat pistol handling. All but my youngest son is not yet of age carry concealed.

But my wife is slow to appreciate the situations which require her to arm herself. The same ex-Marine who is our dog trainer is working on her reaction skills. He's a remarkable find for us.

The dog will give her those precious few seconds to do so BUT ONLY IF THE DOG REACTS TO THE SITUATION EVEN WITHOUT PRODDING FROM THE HANDLER OR IF THE DOG PRESENTS SUCH A SEEMINGLY DANGEROUS PACKAGE THAT POTENTIALLY ASSAULTATIVE INDIVIDUALS THINK BETTER OF IT. Our trainer with 16 years of experience as an MP K-9 even in combat assures us that this is possible and even desirable given our unique requirements.

AS THE POST BELOW SUGGESTS, WE HAVE A TARGET ON OUR BACK.

I'll risk the lawsuits to keep my family safe from the racists who will surely harm her if they get their hands on her. And, we'll absolutely wear the T-shirts to help make an impression and dissuade them in the first place.

LF


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

( for onxygirl) ^ I would tend to disagree. ..but that's ok  we can disagree. I guess I really don't have a fear factor with being out and about enough to take a dog out to protect me...maybe it's where we live. ? 
I would rather my dog be home to protect my home. We live in a town where there are more home break ins than there are assaults on the street. 

Guess I'm glad A. I have been taught self protection and B. I live in a town where we don't have to take our dogs out to protect us


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I'm all for people not TOUCHING your dog because he might have issues with it. But just the fact that he growls at anything approaching him is completely incorrect. I mean...can you really guarantee that a child won't just run by him some day and he won't just lash out and grab the kid?
> 
> Sorry...a T-Shirt on you or the dog won't stop people from approaching you when you're with your dog. If I'm walking towards you on the sidewalk, and I see you wearing that type of clothing (which you would need 7 of for each day of the week), I'm not going to inconvenience myself and cross the street just because YOU think you've given me enough warning.
> 
> ...


I would be more worried about the kid running at the dog. Kid like dogs get loose away from there parents all the time. The only thing to stop such a kid would be yourself. 

I had an occurance at a dog day get together not long ago. Cruz was only about 3 1/2 to 4 months old at the time. But he like alot of GSD pups has a tendancy to play rough. I knew he wouldn't out and out bite someone, but he mouths and his teeth are sharp. I steered him clear of kids. Accept for the family that just had to approach us and see the dog and they had maybe a 7 yr. old bot that wanted to pet Cruz. I stupidly complied and thought this kid would keep some distance and just extend to pet. In the blink of an eye, he knelt down and bearhugged the dog. I freaked but the dog was luckly calm and let it happen. This is a mistake that I won't let happen again. Cruz is not trained in protection, maybe sometime down the road. But it goes to show how fast kids can get on top of something, you just can't react fast enough and then it's too late.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The thing is...you can't really have your dog out and about with you EVERYWHERE. Actually...you're quite limited to where you can take your dog (unless you pass the dog off as a fake SD). I mean...sure you can take your dog to parks, most fairs, many outdoor gatherings...but its not like we can take our dog into stores, sporting events, restaurants, and all the other places where people are usually at when they're not home.

I could care less what kind of temperament or training this dog has. It's a moot point. My point was just that the whole situation doesn't seem safe. Like are people really supposed to completely get out of the way of a dog just because the handler (or their t-shirt) says so? I know that I'm not crossing the street just because someone thinks they've given me fair warning about their dog and now believe they OWN whatever piece of land they're walking on because I shouldn't want to get attacked for no reason.

Like another poster said...this type of situation is exactly why homeowners policies aren't allowing GSDs...and why there are dangerous breed lists...and why rampant breed ban legislation is getting passed. Doesn't matter that there are 99,999 perfectly safe, stable, non-bite trained (or even bite trained) GSD out there, there's always that ONE.

I think its funny that the only posts in this thread the OP "approves of" are the ones that kind of "agree" with him or support the situation. All the other ones are "vindictive, judgmental, uninformed, not seeking information, condemnatory, presumptive and just plain not helpful."


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The T-shirt is doing more damage than good. It is a public announciation that bite-trained dogs are unstable and dangerous. This does a great harm to the already highly misunderstood nature of protection training to the public. The perception is that all bite-trained dogs are unstable and dangerous and a liability in public. Enough public pressure and misconception and some countries have already passed laws making the owning and training of protection dogs illegal except for "professionals" like police and military.

Young dogs at that age often go through a period of confusion where they are not sure how to act and how to process the training (even if the training is positive and prey-based), and will go through a period of general suspicion, but as they mature they develop more confidence and discrimination. 

If your pup is going through such a period, ditch the shirt, and use a muzzle on him, and keep him away from public situations where an inappropriate bite may happen. 

There are many issues others have mentioned that will come back and haunt you, and harm the public's perception of GSDs in general and bite-training in particular if anything happened:

- you are advertising that you have trained your dog to bite. As others have said, if a bite happens, it won't be "accidental", you will be seen as using an "attack weapon" on innocent bystanders

- another step towards BSL for GSDs. 

- re-enforcing the image that bite-trained GSDs are uncontrollabel and dangerous. Many countries have passed laws, and others have tried to pass laws making protection training and protection sports illegal. 

The reasons you want a PPD dog are your own, but you still need to go about it responsibly, and ensure that your PPD GSD is an ambassador to the breed, and not a reason for the public to be supporting BSL and the banning of protection training by civilians.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I think you know or should know (OP), when you post what you did you are going to get responses you may not like

With that, just like any other internet forum, take what you can use and don't bother with the rest, easy as that.

Responses come from what one posts' so whether one knows exact situations , obviously not if it's not posted 

Again, I dont have a problem with whatever you want to do with your dog, but it is up to you to keep the 'good guys' /kids safe , not sure the shirt will work, but whatever floats your boat.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

martemchik said:


> The thing is...you can't really have your dog out and about with you EVERYWHERE.
> 
> I think its funny that the only posts in this thread the OP "approves of" are the ones that kind of "agree" with him or support the situation. All the other ones are "vindictive, judgmental, uninformed, not seeking information, condemnatory, presumptive and just plain not helpful."


We can take the dog with us enough to impress our racist neighbors to leave us alone. That's the point of it all.

Regarding, whose posts I approve of they're the ones that are balanced and thoughtful, not just those that in your opinion seem to agree with me.

LF


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

martemchik said:


> The thing is...you can't really have your dog out and about with you EVERYWHERE. Actually...you're quite limited to where you can take your dog (unless you pass the dog off as a fake SD). I mean...sure you can take your dog to parks, most fairs, many outdoor gatherings...but its not like we can take our dog into stores, sporting events, restaurants, and all the other places where people are usually at when they're not home.
> 
> I could care less what kind of temperament or training this dog has. It's a moot point. My point was just that the whole situation doesn't seem safe. Like are people really supposed to completely get out of the way of a dog just because the handler (or their t-shirt) says so? I know that I'm not crossing the street just because someone thinks they've given me fair warning about their dog and now believe they OWN whatever piece of land they're walking on because I shouldn't want to get attacked for no reason.
> 
> ...


Thank you -- that was me about the insurance...we just got canned from out last insurance company because I admitted we had a GSD -- so it took me almost a week to find an insurance company that would take us on. 

Someone also said something about it not being a liability if the dog is properly trained and there is an "alert" ...I don't think that's true. It sounds to me in research that unless the dog is a police trained dog working for the police department or military ..YOU ARE responsible for ANY damages done by your dog. I can put up a big @$$ sign in my yard and tell people to stay out ..but if some little kid who can't read wanders up..my dog bites him/her..."I" AM Liable. 

and from what it sounds like the OP has little to no control over his dog. That's a red flag right there to me.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

and the whole racist thing...that's bull ...you are using this dog to make people think you are all bad 

So now the race card will be pulled yet in another venue...now all people you claim are "racist" will be attacked by your dog. Well played. Watch our insurance rates go up people.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

and that was another thing about the video...where are you people living that you can just take your dog in the store with you? The petco/petsmarts are the ONLY stores around here you can take them in without being a service dog ( and btw you see that abused around here too)


ps to OP ...I doubt the neighbors problem with you is you or your wifes race..it's probably your attitude


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> The reasons you want a PPD dog are your own, but you still need to go about it responsibly, and ensure that your PPD GSD is an ambassador to the breed, and not a reason for the public to be supporting BSL and the banning of protection training by civilians.


Again, it is high-minded to suggest that we must adopt your interpretations of our responsibility towards the breed.

We must protect ourselves from American racists who will surely harm us when they seek to vent their frustrations about the unfortunate but predictable results of American provocations (the "pivot to Asia).

The dog has a purpose. Our purpose. That is to intimidate. We'll do it our way. If in serving our life-and-death purpose the dog's presentation has an undesirable impact on something as vaporous as breed reputation then I sure know how to set priorities.

We selected a GSD for this very reason, his reputation, deserved or not for aggression.

LF


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm locking this as it is turning into an anti-government and personal rant, and falling way off the issues of dog training.

OP, political subjects are against the board rules. Bringing politics into a discussion always turns into mud-slinging and personal attacks as this is one is. Thus the rule and the closure of the thread.


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