# If your dog goes after or attacks another dog during obedience class,



## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

PLEASE at least be polite enough to apologize for your inability to keep your dog under control! 

A male GSD I haven't seen before came to our advanced OB club (it's every week, annual fee, not like the usual 8 week course). To join advanced you must have already completed novice under this instructor, so this dog is presumably not new to the atmosphere or training. Everyone was lining up on one side on a straightaway, and I crossed in front of this dog who lunged out and grabbed ahold of Dante's (my 9 month old malinois) face. It was a very aggressive lunge and the owner wasn't paying attention at ALL. To top it off, the instructor asked him if this is what he had been doing on walks. So the owner KNEW his dog had been displaying this behavior and no one warned anyone about it.

And as though that wasn't enough, the guy didn't even bother to issue a quick "sorry." He didn't say a word, so Dante and I went and sat next to some of the friendly regulars.

Do you feel an instructor/owner should warn people their dog is known to do this? Or do you take the chance of this kind of thing occuring when you're in a group class? 7 months of weekly classes (I actually have been going twice a week for the past two months, because Micah has been in novice) and this is only the second time this has happened (to my dog). Once it was a little terror (excuse me, terrier) that was supposed to be heeling, and we were the designated disance behind it, and the owner allowed the dog to lunge backwards to the end of the six foot lead and snip Dante's nose in a pretty nasty manner. I steered clear of that woman and dog, because the dog was fine with her husband but she had no control over it. It went after other dogs as well. This shepherd caught me really off guard, I feel someone should have said something about him given that they knew this might happen.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I think warning should be given to other dog owners by the instructor that this particular dog has some behavior we are trying to correct and lets all work together to correct it. That way it's notifying other owners of the issue while phrasing it in a helping manner which hopefully won't ostrasize (sp?) the dog in question. I'd be very angry if that happened to my dog and would speak to the instructor/owner of the facility.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

It is absolutely the instructor's responsibility to advise everyone in class that a specific dog has known dog-dog aggression issues. After watching people with their dogs I would also leave unless said aggressive dog was muzzled.

And that owner is a donkey (not the word that's in my head) for not falling all over himself to kiss your donkey and apologize.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Holy cow


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

I agree that the instructor should warn people. Willow was pretty good in class but the instructor was aware of her issues and she would warn people if Willow was having a bad day and she would even give me a heads up if there was a new dog coming that might be a little high strung or barky that would most likely cause Willow to react. 
Of course, Willow would only bark. I have never seen her want to really attack another dog or grab it like what happened to you. That is scary.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

So sorry that happened to Dante. Bet he was scared.

Its sounds great that the instructor announce any problem dogs that are attending, muzzling etc. But, really, if they are known to be that bad then they should not even be in that class. And , lots of dogs have bad nights. That is part of dog training. Unless you attend a class with just a few dogs, this sort of thing can happen.

Most logical solution is to really watch for your dogs best interest. Take a quick inventory of dogs attending and stay clear of those that look iffy. Be your dogs advocate. Stay next to the dogs you know. Tim and I are always a safe bet!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Which one of your dogs is Tim? I don't know if I've seen you there yet! I have missed the last few weeks though due to drama with my living situation/landlord.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Tim is the one on the right, with his head tilted. He is a colle/shepherd (?) mix from TriState collie rescue. He seriously would not hurt a flea and I have to really watch it that he is not put in a scary situation. That really is the main drawback to those big classes..it can build their confidence when all goes well, but when there is a blow-up..its bad. There were a couple times when I had to drag Tim thru the door. He is getting braver, but I watch the other dogs like a hawk. I am not embarrassed to move to nicer neighbors either.

We go to the 6 pm class as its not so packed..and that has helped.

And yes, the handler shouldve apologized, but they were probably too freaked out to say anything...but, they better learn how to do a really good correction!!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Ah, Rerun and I usually go at 7. I think thats the best time for her with having someone to watch her son, and I prefer it over 6 so I don't have to drive from downtown to fishers during rush hour!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I think I'll stay out of this thread...

Well not totally, I guess. YES- it is absolutely the instructor's responsibility to make it aware that there is an aggressive dog in class. Especially in a class that size where there is no way the single instructor can be aware of all forty or so dogs. That's all I have to say about that. (But you knew it was coming, right?)

[EDIT]- BTW, Rerun- really sorry to hear it happened to you!! I hope this doesn't set Dante's training back too much- I know you've worked really hard!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rerun said:


> PLEASE at least be polite enough to apologize for your inability to keep your dog under control!


Are you kidding? I'd be MORTIFIED if my dog did that!!!! 

I do think that the owner should let the trainer know that their dog does things like that and leave it up to the trainer to either decide not to let them in the class, or make accommodations to prevent an incident. I've taken many group classes over the years with a variety of dogs, and it's never been (nor should it be) a "take your chances" environment. The people in the class need to be responsible for their dogs and the trainer needs to be responsible for a safe environment for everyone there. 

In one of Halo's classes there was a highly reactive dog. The facility has classes for reactive dogs and I assume that this particular dog had either already taken it and was being slowly integrated into regular classes, or there weren't any classes available for this person and dog at the time. BUT - she showed up early and was already in the room surrounded by barriers to block the dog's view of the other dogs in class, and vice versa most weeks. One week she got there a little later and about half the dogs were already there. The trainer told everyone that they were coming into the room, the "condo" was already set up and waiting for them, and she instructed everyone to turn their dogs away so there would be no eye contact between our dogs and this dog. She had them enter quickly through a side door that was close to where they would be set up, and he and his owner were in the room and behind their barriers in seconds and without incident.


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## koda girl (Feb 15, 2010)

Well I am not in your training class but in my training class it is my dog that does the lunging, along with another German Shepherd. The 2 shepherds are both very dog reactive. The other person uses a prong collar. I use a halti in class because if she pulls towards another dog, it closes her mouth, plus I do feel I have a lot of control with it on. But she still tries to go after other dogs but I am watching for that all the time. I also carry a spray bottle of water to spray her when I see her staring at another dog so I can catch it before it happens. We have taken many classes but it is only recently she is being aggressive like this. She is very well socialized and I just can't explain it. I am hoping the classes might help. But I can promise you she will not get a hold of another dog in class, I will make sure this does not happen as the person in your class should be doing also. I believe it is the owners responsibility.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wildo said:


> Especially in a class that size where there is no way the single instructor can be aware of all forty or so dogs.


Are there really 40 dogs with ONE instructor?!?!? That's part of the problem right there. I've never been in a class with more than 12 dogs (that's usually the maximum allowed to enroll), and often there are fewer, either at the beginning or in successive weeks. Some of the classes I've taken have one or two assistants in addition to the main trainer, so as s/he leads the class they can move around and offer individual assistance as necessary to those that need it.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

It would be unfair for me to not say that the 40ish to 1 ratio was how it was when I went to that facility _at least 4 months ago._ That may no longer be the case (but I doubt much has changed). Like I said- to be fair, I don't know for a fact that the classes are still so packed; purely an educated guess on my part. It is most certainly more of a "club" than a "class."


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## DougGeneration (Apr 28, 2011)

There's definitely a big difference between a club and a class.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Again, CLUB not CLASS. I pay about $2 a week for advanced, this isn't a money making venture. He's got some fantastic schutzhund breeding dogs, and knows his stuff. He's not some quack running under the table classes. Obviously, wildo likes to make his point clear that he doesn't care for this place, but it's been around for a LONG time and and is very well renowed.

In novice and puppy there are generally 3-4 instructors and a group of about 20 - 25 dogs. Novice and graduation classes are sometimes combined (two time slots on many nights) but otherwise it's a small ratio. Those classes are MUCH more hands on. Advanced isn't run as a class, it's run as a club. I don't know what the large # of dogs has to do with anything - this isn't a class for reactive dogs, IMHO he shouldn't have been there if he couldn't control his dog. He should be retaking novice or taking private lessons. The large class sizes have really proofed Dante and been a godsend for socialization for him.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

In the end, I think it's the instructors responsibility to make sure things like this don't happen. Sure accidents/mistakes CAN happen, but if they know a dog is dog aggressive /reactive, this should be taken into consideration for the safety and well being of other people/dogs.

Won't go into the long details, but Masi was in a puppy class, that was totally out of control, she would mind her own business and get "jumped" every single class by peoples' older puppies/young dogs that handlers could not handle, and the instructor basically blew it off...Needless to say I pulled her out of the class, and ended up with a young puppy who was now reacting/going into defense mode WAY to early.

I signed up for another class at a different facility, was VERY honest wth the new instructor, observed classes for 4 weeks with Masi behind a gate to gage reactions. Entered a class, and the instructor told EVERYONE to keep their dogs out of Masi's "space" until we could deem otherwise..

This class was a godsend for us, it totally helped reprogram the negative experiences in the first class.. BTW the first class was totally positive, the 2nd was basically koehler method. 

Masi LOVED going to the second class, couldn't wait to get in the door where it was getting to the point of dragging her into the first one (tho I didn't do that)

So in my opinion, club/classes whatever, if you've got an instructor who can't control aggressive dogs and clients who can't control their dogs, they need to be sectioned off/private lessons for the safety of others.

IF my dog ever did that I'd be mortified as well, and if it was DONE to my dog, I would have been having a hissy fit, especially without an apology


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Last summer in our first round of agility classes there were three shepherds in the class (among other breeds): me and Nikon, my friend and her dog, and another woman I didn't know with a large black GSD. Nikon does not like other dogs in his "space" but he is *always* under control and I generally do not let him react even if another dog is truly being rude. My friend's shepherd is a total lover and good with other dogs from what I've seen, but does not deserve to be picked on by other dogs because of it. The black shepherd was not being properly controlled by the owner. It was clear she was frustrated with it, so the dog responded by not listening to her. It would get away from her and CHARGE other dogs with its hackles up. There was never an actual fight, but after a few classes of this, the owner of the facility asked her to leave the class (and would have helped her and suggested better classes for her but the owner had a fit about everyone assuming the shepherd was attacking and left in a huff). This lady never apologized either, she just kept insisting that her dog was "friendly" (Ok, well mine ISNT!!).

We've had this problem in many classes, where people enter "Advance" and cannot even get their dog to sit and stay reliably. Luckily the owner of the facility (who is very involved and attends all classes) and the trainers are good at stepping in when people don't have control of their dogs.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Generally he is good at stepping in and getting people to get theirs under control. That's why I'm not sure why this was let to slide. I was pretty upset but didn't want to totally disrupt class and make a scene about it. Perhaps should have stayed after, but I'm not really sure what I would have said.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Rerun said:


> Do you feel an instructor/owner should warn people their dog is known to do this? Or do you take the chance of this kind of thing occuring when you're in a group class?


Yes. No.

It is absolutely the instructor and owner's job to let the rest of the class known to keep their distance if they know a dog may have a problem.

I have taken a couple of dog reactive fosters and one dog aggressive foster to a small class that a rescue friend teaches with other instructors for socialization. We always remind the other owners to keep their distance at the beginning of every class. There is also a people and dog aggressive boxer and other dog reactive regulars that have been coming to the class for years so we really only have to worry about new people. 

So sorry that happened to Dante and you.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

first, it is the responsibility of the owner to let the intructor know if there are any issues with their dog..

second, if anything happens like this in classes its the instructors responsibility to deal with it, and to keep things positive for the rest of the class.....unfortunately where its a public class your going to have incidences happen like this from time to time, but if the instructor is concious and addresses it properly it shouldn't be an ongoing problem.....if it gets to be an ongoing problem i would move on to a more postivie atmosphere..

unfortunately, alot of these training facility's are all about $$$$$$ so the instructors don't want to say anything afraid to offend someone and lose the business.sad but true.......

it stinks when this happens, and if you feel negative about going now, i would either talk to the trainer in private, give it another chance, or move on........you need to have a good feeling about training and the atmosphere so that your dog can succeed.....


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

As a student in many classes over the years (and currently!), as well as an instructor, it comes as no surprise to me that not all handlers have control of their dogs all of the time. That is likely one of the reasons that the handler has his/her dog in the class in the first place: to learn how to teach the dog acceptable behavior. There are reactive dogs, aggressive dogs, and inept owners/handlers all over the place, from training classes to the sidewalk down the street. If the handler is in a class with the dog, he/she is probably doing the best he/she can to overcome the problems with the dog -- they need assistance, support, and empathy -- not to be shunned, glared at, or made to feel an outcast. I've had the barking lunging dog at the end of my leash -- trust me, it is not a grand feeling. I learned the most and saw the best progress with my dog when the class and the instructor were patient and supportive. As an instructor, if I have such a dog in my class, I let the handler know I understand, make it clear how he/she is to keep close watch on the dog and maintain the dogs boundaries so as not to provoke an incident -- it is much better to prevent an incident than to set the dog up to fail and require correction. I also let the class know that the dog is learning to work through some issues, make them aware that they should also be respecting boundaries, and commend the entire class (including the handler of the reactive dog) for working together calmly so that all of the dogs make progress. Of course, if I feel a dog is dangerous, additional steps are necessary. I've required dogs (only once or twice) to wear a muzzle while on training grounds and in class if I feel the dog is a danger to other dogs or people.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

EchoGSD said:


> As a student in many classes over the years (and currently!), as well as an instructor, it comes as no surprise to me that not all handlers have control of their dogs all of the time. That is likely one of the reasons that the handler has his/her dog in the class in the first place: to learn how to teach the dog acceptable behavior. There are reactive dogs, aggressive dogs, and inept owners/handlers all over the place, from training classes to the sidewalk down the street. If the handler is in a class with the dog, he/she is probably doing the best he/she can to overcome the problems with the dog -- they need assistance, support, and empathy -- not to be shunned, glared at, or made to feel an outcast. I've had the barking lunging dog at the end of my leash -- trust me, it is not a grand feeling. I learned the most and saw the best progress with my dog when the class and the instructor were patient and supportive. As an instructor, if I have such a dog in my class, I let the handler know I understand, make it clear how he/she is to keep close watch on the dog and maintain the dogs boundaries so as not to provoke an incident -- it is much better to prevent an incident than to set the dog up to fail and require correction. I also let the class know that the dog is learning to work through some issues, make them aware that they should also be respecting boundaries, and commend the entire class (including the handler of the reactive dog) for working together calmly so that all of the dogs make progress. Of course, if I feel a dog is dangerous, additional steps are necessary. I've required dogs (only once or twice) to wear a muzzle while on training grounds and in class if I feel the dog is a danger to other dogs or people.


I agree, to a point. I would've left the situation a lot less upset if the man had just APOLOGIZED. Regarding having him in class - this class isn't for reactive dogs, so I don't agree with that point there. I feel if he had so little control of his dog as to allow it to lunge to the end of the lead and grab hold of my dogs face who was in a heel beside me, then he shouldn't be in advanced. This class does a lot of off leash work, and he couldn't even control his on lead.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Talk to the instructor about your concerns. He is always saying he wants feedback.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Rerun said:


> Obviously, wildo likes to make his point clear that he doesn't care for this place, but it's been around for a LONG time and and is very well renowed.


It's true, I don't care for the place. I trained here for Novice, a month or two of Advanced, and a month or two of "Agility" (if you can call). This is a public forum and a thread I have personal experience with. The very fact that you created a thread about an attack at that training facility is definitely not surprising to me (though it is sad). 

Very well renowned? The place is renowned locally through good marketing and lack of a better choice. Google it- eliminate all of the links that come up from their own site and see what your left with. Such an extreme spectrum of opinions on the place... Mix that with the number of attacks I've _personally_ seen at the facility during classes, followed by the most God-awful corrections:


Everyone stands around the room. Aggressive dog is walked [by trainer, not owner] to each and every one of the 40+ dogs, made to sit, and given a strong enough collar correction with a prong to move their front feet over by 12 inches. Or...
Working 40' off lead recalls with a known reactive dog with a shock collar "turned up to max in case he goes crazy on another dog." Or...
Removing collars/leads and issuing ear pinches to a dog that hasn't even failed the task yet "just to ensure the dog knows who's boss even without a collar on"
- no thanks, I'll pass.

Just because my experience differs from yours doesn't make it any less meaningful. I don't agree with their training techniques. If they work for you, and you are happy training in an environment where they may be uncontrolled, off lead, dog aggressive animals- that's certainly your choice. I know I made mine. Again, the fact that you started a thread saying your dog was attacked did not surprise me.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I have personally gone through puppy, two novice, and advanced and have NEVER seen anything you described above.

The ear pinch - everyone rubbed their dogs ears. Sorry if you misunderstood the exercise!

With all due respect, you stated yourself previously that pimg was your first dog and you had no other training experience, so I hardly see where your experience with other facilities (other than PP, which you've even complained about) is relevant.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Not every place is right for everybody..I personally love this place. If it were not for this trainer, I would have been talked into putting down one of my rescues for biting a child. We worked thru it, always treating the dog with respect. I am forever grateful for that.

You may run into more problem dogs at this place, because he is the only place that knows how to deal with their problems, and their owners. They show up here after none of the other places worked. I personally feel safer at this place because I know the trainer expects the dogs to behave and he usually addresses the issue right away.

Remember, dogs act like dogs. Especially when they are around other dogs! 

Ok, well, just my opinion!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I also agree that it should be the instructor's responsibility to let everyone know. 

I know when I was taking obedience classes with Frag I talked to the trainer a lot before signing up to make sure it was okay with his aggression, and the first night of class she announced to EVERYONE, that is was NOT okay to come pet Frag without asking. And it worked, and everyone then KNEW that it was their responsibility to stay away from Frag, and most did.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I feel like yes, it is the instructor's duty to be responsible for the safety of the class members, canine and human. That means not having classes so large that he or she can't keep everyone far enough apart and keep an eye on things. Personally, I feel most comfortable in class of ten or fewer participants. More than that and I do not get the attention that I am paying for. I want my instructor to know my dog's name and know what his or her issues are, and then take measures to manage them. Isn't that why we fill out those papers in the first class that ask us to detail our dog's strengths and weaknesses? 

Rerun, that sucks about your dog. I guess you pretty much have to trust NO ONE to be keeping an eye on their dog, always assume the worst.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Rerun said:


> I have personally gone through puppy, two novice, and advanced and have NEVER seen anything you described above.


It matters not that _you_ didn't see it. I saw it, and that is not something you can change. I was there. I witnessed it.




Rerun said:


> The ear pinch - everyone rubbed their dogs ears. Sorry if you misunderstood the exercise!


If everyone rubbed their dog's ears, it must have been in disbelief of what they were being told to do. I'm sorry you don't know the definition of "pinch." It certainly doesn't mean "rub."




Rerun said:


> With all due respect, you stated yourself previously that pimg was your first dog and you had no other training experience, so I hardly see where your experience with other facilities (other than PP, which you've even complained about) is relevant.


Not once did I mention anything about "my experience at other facilities" in this thread. So I have no idea what you are talking about on this... What I did say was:



wildo said:


> Just because my experience differs from yours doesn't make it any less meaningful.


You can't change the experience that I had first hand. You can argue it- which is fine- but it doesn't change the experience. I find it laughable that your maintain how in control the class/club is while your own dog was actually attacked. How is it you dismiss my experience when you are in such a situation? Unreal...

Again:


wildo said:


> Just because my experience differs from yours *doesn't make it any less meaningful*.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Your opinions are obvious, perhaps now that you've stated them you can be mature enough to stop with the personal vendetta about this place every single time I post a thread related to it.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Good lord. Get over yourself. *YOU* posted something negative about the place. I agreed.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

No, I posted something negative about another dog and owner.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

wildo said:


> 1. Everyone stands around the room. Aggressive dog is walked [by trainer, not owner] to each and every one of the 40+ dogs, made to sit, and given a strong enough collar correction with a prong to move their front feet over by 12 inches. Or...
> 
> 2.Working 40' off lead recalls with a known reactive dog with a shock collar "turned up to max in case he goes crazy on another dog." Or...
> 
> 3.Removing collars/leads and issuing ear pinches to a dog that hasn't even failed the task yet "just to ensure the dog knows who's boss even without a collar on"


It amazing to me that this kinda training still goes on. I guess some things never change.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have been on both sides of this and honestly I can't remember if I said I was sorry and I can't remember if the other person said they were sorry-I think they did though-If I didn't say I was sorry it was because I was pre-occupied with what was going on--The instructor warned people about my dog -however over time its become not really an issue she enjoys most of the other dogs in the class and we're cautious around the dog she had an incident with-We are in a really crowded show handling class now and she goes up and greets other dogs -its a great experience


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

GregK said:


> It amazing to me that this kinda training still goes on. I guess some things never change.


Yes, it is sad that this kind of training still occurs. Luckily, it doesn't occur at this facility that I train at.

It was voted #1 training facility by the community it resides in, which is a VERY nice upper class community, and even has CCI (a service dog agency) meetings as well as puppy raisers that train there, low and behold, in gentle leaders. There are tons of fantastic reviews on every major review site about it which are NOT owned by the owners (so they have no say in what is posted) and in all my reading some time ago of the many reviews, only one was a negative and pieces of the story just didn't add up, nor did anything come from it. 

It is a GREAT facility and that has absolutely NOTHING to do with my post - the owner of a reactive dog not keeping his dog under control (which by my post should be evident is not the norm) and not even bothering to apologize for his dogs behavior. I don't care whether you're in a class of 3 or 100, if there's a reactive dog not being controlled, an attack can occur. Mostly I was po'ed that this dog was new, didn't seem to really belong in advanced OB, and I wondered if it was the norm for an instructor/owner to not warn people about a dog like this, or do they just count on keeping it under control and it not being an issue.

I can see where the owner wouldn't want to be outcasted, but not telling people or apologizing is what made me steer clear of him for the rest of the class.


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## rebelsgirl (May 19, 2005)

My instructor knew Zoe's problem being reactive. She would let others know so they'd steer clear of her. She would also put me beside dogs that Zoe was less reactive to, or have them not follow me so close behind during exercises. 

Zoe got so bad tho she is not invited to classes anymore. I wish I could find an reactive dog class that is not over an hour away, mostly because of the gas prices and traffic. There were no barriers in my obedience class.

As far as the owner not apologizing.. he may have been too mortified. Because when you have a dog like this, you do feel like an outcast and feel like crawling in a hole somewhere. Zoe has never gotten close enough to another dog while in class to bite tho. She's just scary looking and sounding.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What's new, I disagree with everyone. 

Except that the guy should have apologized. That goes without saying. 

So the dog has to pass a novice class to get into advanced. Big whip. In my place, if you come to five out of six classes you pass. But the big thing is that basic or novice can be adult dogs that have never been to classes before, or puppies, too old for puppy classes, or even puppies young enough for puppy classes. So a dog passes basic at six months old and starts lunging and barking at 8 or 10 months old. Or a dog finished basic last fall, and now he has happily forgotten that he has ever seen an animal with four legs. But he fits the requirements of the class.

You know who repeats puppy or basic? Yes, us old hands. The newbies at this steam ahead like they are in a hurry to get the dog from here to there. While some of us, say, nope, she is not walking on a loose lead properly yet, I will retake basic. And in basic you get all the interesting dogs and handlers. A few old hands with a green dog, and all the pet owners in their first trip to camp. 

If you count on the instructor to protect your dog in class, I hope you have a good pet insurance policy.

The pet owners forging through dog classes to get up to their CGC are generally not all that dog-savy. This is social hour and they are engrossed in conversation and not paying ANY attention to their dog who is eying every dog that walks through the door. If there are only five or six participants, the instructor might be able to say, "Newbie, make your dog focus on you."

Now should the instructor tell everyone in the class that five out of the seven may be reactive, or should all seven just watch and protect their dog? 

And where are all these reactive dog classes everyone spouts on about. They certainly aren't out in the sticks where I am. 

People in classes are those that are TRYING to do something with their dogs. I give them credit, even if they do hold my interest better than a bunch of obedience trial people. 

It is frustrating every single time one of them acts like they are going to eat my dogs. But so far, between the instructors and me, we have protected my dogs. 

You can give people just one rule, and plaster it everywhere PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR DOG! And they won't. It is up to you to keep an eye on your dog and the other on everyone else's. 

I suppose if you are willing to pay enough money, you might be able to encourage a trainer to have a class for dogs that have already acheived a CD or a BH or a CDX or a UD or an RE. And then you can be relatively certain your dog will be amongst dogs that are safe, and owners who are serious.

I try not to be too harsh with the people having troubles with their dog, because I may be on the other side of the equation some day, and maybe I want them to be not too harsh to me.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

Everyone certainly has some strong opinions on this topic  I do get that the situation could have been defused right after it happened if the handler of the reactive/aggressive dog had apologized...maybe he was embarrassed, maybe he didn't know any better, maybe he's just an insensitive jerk. Whatever the case, I am sorry that it happened. This is one of those times when we have to say "GEEZ!" and then move forward.... good luck!!


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Yes, I agree - I am not going to dwell on it, and certainly not going to stop going to the facility - it's a great place. I think if I'd waited a day before posting I may have just let it go, but was upset last night and needed to vent about the other dog owner not being more cautious.

Hopefully it was an error that won't be repeated, but either way, I'll still steer clear of that dog in class from now on. I don't care how long it's been since he took novice, or how old the dog was when he took it - he's been through the pre-requisite course under the instructor and should be able to handle his dog in a manner that doesn't allow for it to lunge to the end of a 6' lead and grab hold of another dogs face. Luckily both my reflexes and Dantes are good, and my dog isn't reactive, or it would've been a real mess.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

ponyfarm said:


> You may run into more problem dogs at this place, because he is the only place that knows how to deal with their problems, and their owners. They show up here after none of the other places worked. I personally feel safer at this place because I know the trainer expects the dogs to behave and he usually addresses the issue right away.


Thank you for the additional perspective, you make a good point. We have two (that I know of) that I found out tonight in Micah's graduation that were both driving from 1 - 2 hrs away because they couldn't find local help that actually knew what they were doing with difficult dogs. Both dogs had made amazing progress just in this 8 weeks, one of which was very reactive and is totally under control now. Which is why I was so surprised to see one in advanced with such problems.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Rerun said:


> Yes, I agree - I am not going to dwell on it, and certainly not going to stop going to the facility - it's a great place. I think if I'd waited a day before posting I may have just let it go, but was upset last night and needed to vent about the other dog owner not being more cautious.
> 
> *Good, let it go. I have let things go from the place I train too because I know that overall it is a really good place with excellent trainers. And I too have vented after near-misses to myself or my dogs.*
> 
> Hopefully it was an error that won't be repeated, but either way, I'll still steer clear of that dog in class from now on. *I don't care how long it's been since he took novice, or how old the dog was when he took it - he's been through the pre-requisite course under the instructor and should be able to handle his dog in a manner that doesn't allow for it to lunge to the end of a 6' lead and grab hold of another dogs face.* Luckily both my reflexes and Dantes are good, and my dog isn't reactive, or it would've been a real mess.


*And it should not rain for three months straight. 

The fact is, not everyone spends their free time hanging out on internet chat rooms, and reading training books. Most of the people in training classes do NOT know what their dog is likely to do in situations. The need to learn. They are there for that purpose. He should have apologized, and you need to be more careful to not let it get that far again. 

It is like they say, you will meet clueless owners and problem dogs wherever you go. Letting your guard down because this is an advanced class, I don't know, that sounds way risky to me. But then, I live out in the sticks where people do not consider dog training until there is a problem that cannot be ignored or excused for one reason or another. 
*


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Rerun said:


> Yes, it is sad that this kind of training still occurs. Luckily, it doesn't occur at this facility that I train at.


Okay, I'm lost. You're being sarcastic or no?

Is there a Nazi-like trainer there leash-jerking dogs off their feet or is Wildo blowing wind up everyone's skirt and it's a great place to train with humane methods????


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

GregK said:


> Okay, I'm lost. You're being sarcastic or no?
> 
> Is there a Nazi-like trainer there leash-jerking dogs off their feet or is Wildo blowing wind up everyone's skirt and it's a great place to train with humane methods????


I'm not going to continue to debate my training facility after this post. Wildo has a personal problem with the facility and can't keep himself from making a snide remark about it everytime one of us here (there are several here) posts about the place. You'll note in this thread alone there are 3 that train there quite happily, vs one who complains about it regularly. It's a great facility with VERY humane methods. If you see any of my training videos posted here, I learned it all from them, and it's all very positive. Wildo had no prior dog or training experience and went from this facility that uses positive and fair corrections when needed to a strictly positive clicker training facility. Worth noting that I frequently use a clicker in class as well, which is about as positive training as you can get!

I don't know or understand why he constantly says awful things about the place, it's obvious he doesn't like it, but for whatever reason isn't mature enough to understand that just because he wants to train in an all positive clowns dancing around with balloons happy manner doesn't make those who use corrections during training dog abusive trainers. You take a facility that gets reviews and votings as the best training facility in the city and consistently has probably 50 new clients a week between puppy, novice, advanced, agility, show ring, etc and combine that with an owner/instructor that breeds schutzhund dogs and has one of the best stud dogs in the world right now; or you take wildos opinion who has absolutely no experience outside of this one dog. Your call.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Fair enough! Happy training.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

We have a very reactive dog in our OB class who will bite/attack if dogs get too close. However, everyone in class was informed on the first night that this dog was involved in tragic attack where she was almost killed, and was saved by her petite female owner who held her above her head to get the attacking dog off her (and the owner got her ear ripped off by the attacker). Everyone in class is on board and committed to helping this dog become less reactive and it is working. However if I had not been told, and this dog attacked saber, I'd be furious. Knowing, we can all adjust our distance and position and there have been no "connecting" reactions. In fact after several weeks, this dog is showing friendliness to Saber, wagging and taking a few steps closer which she does not do with the other dogs so maybe eventually they will be friends.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I totally have no problem helping someone with a reactive dog, I actually met up with someone on this forum with a reactive female GSD that she's worked hard with since the dog was a puppy, on my own personal time. I enjoyed it and it was good for my pup to practice his non-reactiveness even if one was reacting to him. I was just upset that he didn't say anything before or after, ya know? Thanks for the story


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

yep, I'd be upset too!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Hahahaha... you question _my_ maturity? You don't know me. You've met me one time for three mins in a class. You don't know that one of your two "supports" sent me a PM agreeing with my criticisms. And you sure as **** can't change _what I have seen in person_. I will never, ever, again train at a facility where the trainer was charged with animal abuse, deferred or not. A _good_ trainer should never be on the edge enough to be in that situation. 

You're going to bash me and then say you're done- as if I don't have a chance to defend myself? WTF is wrong with you?

Why is my experience in question? I don't have to know anything about domestic violence to know that if I see some guy punch his wife in the face that that's wrong. Get off your "super experienced" high horse. This facility has just as many negative reviews as positive- awards or not.

[EDIT]


Rerun said:


> he wants to train in an all positive clowns dancing around with balloons happy manner


...come on.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I can relate to wildo's situation here. When I was in a local OB club witnessing an alpha roll I was told that I didn't see anything and everything was fine. After I explicitely told that no one is going to put a finger on my dog except me I became an enemy of the state. I don't really care, I have my own opinion and I will sure voice it whenever I feel like it. I am also happy when others like the facility and the instructors since we all have different training styles and expectations.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Someone made the comment about class sizes being to big (BINGO)!!!!! thats one red flag...there is No Way possible one instructor or even two can handle 30-40 people in a class and address everything thats going on at once............i would definitely go for a small class, preferably no more than ten, and a handful is even better.........


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

As has been repeated over and over... This isn't a class. Its a club. Its a yearly fee of $125. Its not a 6-8 week obedience class.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

ok, then its up to the owner to decide whether its worth while to keep going to a Club that isn't a postive training place for them or the dog........


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

debbiebrown said:


> ok, then its up to the owner to decide whether its worth while to keep going to a Club that isn't a postive training place for them or the dog........


It's funny, you go to a place from the time the pup comes home at 10 wks old to current at 10 months, and post one vent about another dog and owner after encountering hundreds upon HUNDREDS of dogs there, and suddenly it's not a positive training place.

Forgive me for posting the vent about the OWNER OF THE DOG and having this turn into some people bash the FACILITY.

this has been a VERY positive place. I read almost daily here about people who have dogs that are reactive, they can't walk them near another dog or strange person, or dogs that don't come immediately when recalled, dogs that bite strangers or children, dogs that destroy everything in the house, etc etc etc.

This dog, a malinois which many people think as a breed is nuts and hyper active; settles in the house and car extremely well, can be with my 9 month old son safely, is totally housetrained and has never once destroyed anything, was born genetically with very weak nerves (I knew this upon acquiring him as a pup) and showed signs early on of reactiveness - can be handled by complete strangers, is excellent in a crowd, is VERY well obedience trained, can be off lead reliably in an open unfenced area, and is good with other dogs.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Rerun said:


> It's funny, you go to a place from the time the pup comes home at 10 wks old to current at 10 months, and post one vent about another dog and owner after encountering hundreds upon HUNDREDS of dogs there, and suddenly it's not a positive training place.
> 
> Forgive me for posting the vent about the OWNER OF THE DOG and having this turn into some people bash the FACILITY.
> 
> ...


You had every right to be upset & also rant about it here. I would have felt the same way. I would be mortified if my dog did what his did to yours. The fact that he didn't even say anything would honestly make me mad too.

Sounds like your dog is doing good at this training facality & you like the set up-end of story!

I have never seen a malinois in person. I think they are beautiful & certainly an impressive dog! My husbands friend had one several years ago. He was a working dog that they provided a retirement home for. They said he was awesome with their kids & visitors & well mannered in their home & public


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## King&Skylar (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm sorry that happened! I am the one in our classes that has the reactive dog (getting better!) but the instructor warns everyone every class that Skylar has a "bubble" and to respect that place- I really appreciate her doing that, but if she didn't- i certainly would tell everyone that she may have issues if they get too close- the owner should have been nice enough to tell everyone that- or at the very least WATCH his dog! I have eyes on Skylar all the time in classes because stuff happens so fast! there is no excuse for that owner, since it's known that the dog acts like that. In our 2nd level of obedience (it was a 6 week class, not yearly membership to a club) we had 2 reactive dogs- mine and a little thing. We NEVER had an issue with either of our dogs, because we all knew the rules- and when someone started in the middle of the 6 weeks, we told them the rules too, and we never had an issue because everyone respected and understood that we were really trying to help our dogs, not just make everyone in class mad.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

cassadee7 said:


> We have a very reactive dog in our OB class who will bite/attack if dogs get too close. However, everyone in class was informed on the first night that this dog was involved in tragic attack where she was almost killed, and was saved by her petite female owner who held her above her head to get the attacking dog off her (and the owner got her ear ripped off by the attacker). Everyone in class is on board and committed to helping this dog become less reactive and it is working. However if I had not been told, and this dog attacked saber, I'd be furious. Knowing, we can all adjust our distance and position and there have been no "connecting" reactions. In fact after several weeks, this dog is showing friendliness to Saber, wagging and taking a few steps closer which she does not do with the other dogs so maybe eventually they will be friends.


Aww!!! You met Gracice!!! Gracie used to be really dog reactive and then Lara and her did some classes with me. She got a lot better to the point that she comes and stays with me when Lara and her husband go out of town! They are great people!!! Gracie is SUPER with my dogs! My understanding about the attack though was that Gracie made it out unhurt and unscathed, thank god. It was truly the epitome of an irresponsible owner, owning a large powerful breed with no obedience or control. Very neat that you got to meet Gracie-Mae "The Pickle"! it's a small world!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not dissing the facility or its training whether positive or what have you. You made some crazy comment about positive training to the individual who does not approve of the facility and that gives the impression that you have an opinion about positive training methods. 

I think as a rule it does not make sense to lower our guard in any training situation. Animals are animals, even human animals. Sometimes they are unpredictable. Sometimes they are totally predictalble. And sometimes the humans in charge of the animals do not want to believe what they are are seeing or the seriousness of it, or simply refuse to see it. So the trainer and the facility, no matter how hard they try to maintain order and safety NEED for us to be prepared for something to happen.

If my dog has puncture wounds, I can be mad at the other dog owner, the trainer, the policies, but I am the one that has to watch my dog suffer and clean and doctor the wounds. So I am going to do everything in my power to avoid issues.


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