# Ace stood up for himself today !!



## Ace GSD

The dog park where we normally go have this dog that everyone call "the sheriff". Cause he would bark amd chase other dogs even the ones that over 100lbs. The reason why noone really care is that its a cute and harmless corgi. There are also 2 other dogs that does this ... 2 german shepherds but they are old and " harmless" cause the only want to show who is the boss ( says the owner )
Now today when i was peting the corgi Ace came and sniff him . The corgi growl then charge at Ace then Ace took a step back then retaliate . He push the corgi neck to the ground, normally Ace would just run lol . Then i said "Ace stop !!" I hope he doesnt think that i dont want him to fight back. I just didnt want him to injure the 7 y/o corgi.


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## DaniFani

Well I'll say it. This is ridiculous and stupid. Situations like everything you've described are how/why dogs become dog aggressive. That dog was wrong, you were wrong, the other "police officer" (how ludicrous) dogs are wrong...whole thing is wrong. You dog is learning other dogs will attack it. This could lead to your dog being the provoker in the future (I'll get him before he gets me). Silly ignorance, and unfortunately...commonplace in most dog park scenarios.


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## Ace GSD

So mad lol


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## Ace GSD

I never meant the corgi any harm lol... Im just pleased Ace dont let the other dog bully him. I know the dogs are wrong to try bully the others. I i cant just tell the old man to leave the park immedietly . A grp of dogs in the fenced area there are always possibilities . Just like this forum has so many people with different opinion there always a chance for arguement. You as example go all out. You didnt see what excatly happen.. Maybe you picture a whole different scenario in your mind .


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## Audie1

DaniFani said:


> Well I'll say it. This is ridiculous and stupid. Situations like everything you've described are how/why dogs become dog aggressive. That dog was wrong, you were wrong, the other "police officer" (how ludicrous) dogs are wrong...whole thing is wrong. You dog is learning other dogs will attack it. This could lead to your dog being the provoker in the future (I'll get him before he gets me). Silly ignorance, and unfortunately...commonplace in most dog park scenarios.


So... tell us how you REALLY feel.


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## katieliz

well, ideally ace would know that he does not have to protect (or "stand up") for himself, cause THAT IS YOUR JOB and you should make sure that HE KNOWS IT. he should never feel the need to protect either you or himself, unless he is a dog professionally trained for protection purposes. man, you are looking for a world of trouble and the possible loss of your dog's life, not to mention a huge lawsuit, if you don't change your way of thinking about this. please consider all the possible ramifications of allowing this behavior to continue.


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## DJEtzel

I agree with Katie and Dani on this one.


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## Ellimaybel

I know you did NOT actually go there... You started a thread involving dog parks, bossy dogs, dogs wrestling, and you actually posted this on THIS forum???? :shocked: What were you thinking? I'll throw you a raft when you get in too deep... lol :help:


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## Ace GSD

Ellimaybel said:


> I know you did NOT actually go there... You started a thread involving dog parks, bossy dogs, dogs wrestling, and you actually posted this on THIS forum???? :shocked: What were you thinking? I'll throw you a raft when you get in too deep... lol :help:


Lol eli  its ok i can handle differences . I learned that when i married the wife haha


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## Skywalkers Mom

Are you a first time dog owner? No offense intended. That being said, I grew up with GSDS', Beagle, Standard poodle, Yellow Lab., Racoon Hound(my girl) and a Husky mix. 9 Horses, Arabians and some half. High tension and adrenalin in animal and person is a very bad combo. Oh and 1 Stallion also an Arab. I rode before I could walk. If you want a future catastrophe allow the behavior you did to continue. There are certain dogs you will be tested physically. Just like a Horse. Even if you outweigh the dog the agility and impact is too great. Teach to learn to get along, keep eyes open and attentive, and realize there are animals that can overpower you and cause serious damage to all concerned.


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## Sunflowers

Time to stop going to the dog park.


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## Ace GSD

Skywalkers Mom said:


> Are you a first time dog owner? No offense intended. That being said, I grew up with GSDS', Beagle, Standard poodle, Yellow Lab., Racoon Hound(my girl) and a Husky mix. 9 Horses, Arabians and some half. High tension and adrenalin in animal and person is a very bad combo. Oh and 1 Stallion also an Arab. I rode before I could walk. If you want a future catastrophe allow the behavior you did to continue. There are certain dogs you will be tested physically. Just like a Horse. Even if you outweigh the dog the agility and impact is too great. Teach to learn to get along, keep eyes open and attentive, and realize there are animals that can overpower you and cause serious damage to all concerned.


I did  thats why i yelled stop to him and hold him before things get worse, after few seconds i let him go and everything is back to normal.
Maybe the part when i said " I hope he doesnt think that i dont want him to fight back " bothers some of you that replied. i dont wish him to lunge and kick the other dogs butt when that happen... but more like i want him to stand his ground instead of laying on his back while the other dog bully him. Anyways its not my puppy who started it... i would never allow him to start such thing.


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## Ace GSD

Sunflowers said:


> Time to stop going to the dog park.


This came across my mind honestly. Ace will be 7 months in a week and he started to play even less with the other dogs. He just want to be outdoor with me.


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## selzer

It could be that something has been lost in the translation. When our posts are written poorly, there is always the possibility that we haven't communicated a scenario so that people will actually get the picture. 

As it is written, yes, I agree with Dani on this. Letting our dogs get bullied, and then feeling proud when our dog is aggressive in its turn, isn't going to get a lot of kudos around here.


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## Jax08

DaniFani said:


> Well I'll say it. This is ridiculous and stupid. Situations like everything you've described are how/why dogs become dog aggressive. That dog was wrong, you were wrong, the other "police officer" (how ludicrous) dogs are wrong...whole thing is wrong. You dog is learning other dogs will attack it. This could lead to your dog being the provoker in the future (I'll get him before he gets me). Silly ignorance, and unfortunately...commonplace in most dog park scenarios.


Regardless of how blunt Dani is, and how amusing you find it, this is 100% correct. Sorry. This is how you end up with a dog reactive dog and you can't fix that. I've been trying for 6 out of 7 years. 

Your dog learned that he could stop this with an attack. The attacks will get progressively worse as your dog gains confidence every time he succeeds until you end up paying vet bills and your dog has a bite record.

Been there, done that. Have the shirt. It's not fun so don't let it happen again.


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## Nikitta

If I take my dogs to the dog park, if any dogs show aggression to them, I leave. I take them in on a leash one at a time and if any dogs show aggression, I leave. I don't want my dogs to learn how to fight. I keep taking them to dog classes to keep them socialized. If a dog is doing growling lunges at my dogs, I leave.


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## martemchik

Hardtop rules...no blood, no foul.


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## Ace GSD

im starting to see the bigger picture here guys thanks for the advice. I guess he is like a child to me and its as simple as seeing your little puppy stood up for bullying this road can lead to a whole different place.
Like Jax said " Your dog learned that he could stop this with an attack. The attacks will get progressively worse as your dog gains confidence every time he succeeds until you end up paying vet bills and your dog has a bite record.

Been there, done that. Have the shirt. It's not fun so don't let it happen again. "

I may need to stop going to that place.. its just convenient when you can just sit down and let the dog work out.


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## Ace GSD

martemchik said:


> Hardtop rules...no blood, no foul.


Haha


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## Audie1

Jax08 said:


> Regardless of how blunt Dani is, and how amusing you find it, this is 100% correct. Sorry.


While I certainly agree that DaniFani is correct, I do feel that you can comment on these boards with a little more tact.

I think Selzer hit the nail squarely on the head, "It could be that something has been lost in the translation. When our posts are written poorly, there is always the possibility that we haven't communicated a scenario so that people will actually get the picture."

A good rule of thumb is that you need to respond to posts exactly as you would if you were face-to-face with that person. If you would respond in the same blunt, rude fashion, then you really are a jerk and need socialization classes - much like our puppies do.

Folks need to calm down.


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## Jax08

Audie, please don't quote me as your example for a manners lesson regarding someone else's post. It's rude and gives the impression that (1) I agree with the abrasive delivery (2) I was the one that made the offense. If you have an issue with Dani then take it up with her, not me.

Unless you are calling me a jerk and in need of socialization classes. In that case, you should take your own advice.


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## martemchik

Best place to socialize?

You guessed it!

The dog park!


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## Ace GSD

martemchik said:


> Best place to socialize?
> 
> You guessed it!
> 
> The dog park!


well its not really all that bad haha he is so much better now since we go to the park so often.. he ignore dogs when we are walking.


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## Ace GSD

Audie1 said:


> A good rule of thumb is that you need to respond to posts exactly as you would if you were face-to-face with that person. If you would respond in the same blunt, rude fashion, then you really are a jerk and need socialization classes - much like our puppies do.
> 
> Folks need to calm down.


I agree with this part.. thats why just because that corgi being mean doesn't mean i have to read the old man the dog park rule and ask him to leave... or ruin my day by going home 5 mins after we just got there.


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## Audie1

Jax08 said:


> Audie, please don't quote me as your example for a manners lesson regarding someone else's post. It's rude and gives the impression that (1) I agree with the abrasive delivery (2) I was the one that made the offense. If you have an issue with Dani then take it up with her, not me.
> 
> Unless you are calling me a jerk and in need of socialization classes. In that case, you should take your own advice.


My apologies, Jax... not directed at you at all. I suppose it was directed at DaniFani, but the intent was to make it more of a generic response.

Again, my apologies.


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## Ace GSD

Jax08 said:


> Audie, please don't quote me as your example for a manners lesson regarding someone else's post. It's rude and gives the impression that (1) I agree with the abrasive delivery (2) I was the one that made the offense. If you have an issue with Dani then take it up with her, not me.
> 
> Unless you are calling me a jerk and in need of socialization classes. In that case, you should take your own advice.


I dont think you are a jerk Jax ^^ i love reading your post and replies . I dont think Audie meant any offense either.


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## DJEtzel

Ace GSD said:


> I agree with this part.. thats why just because that corgi being mean doesn't mean i have to read the old man the dog park rule and ask him to leave... or ruin my day by going home 5 mins after we just got there.


Yes, it means ruining your day, or ending up with a potentially aggressive and reactive dog. What's more
Important to you?


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## DaniFani

Audie1 said:


> While I certainly agree that DaniFani is correct, I do feel that you can comment on these boards with a little more tact.
> 
> I think Selzer hit the nail squarely on the head, "It could be that something has been lost in the translation. When our posts are written poorly, there is always the possibility that we haven't communicated a scenario so that people will actually get the picture."
> 
> A good rule of thumb is that you need to respond to posts exactly as you would if you were face-to-face with that person. If you would respond in the same blunt, rude fashion, then you really are a jerk and need socialization classes - much like our puppies do.
> 
> Folks need to calm down.


Now it's my turn for a lol. 

And yep, we say it to clients faces that come in and have no idea why their dog wants to attack other dogs they "socialized it perfectly at dog parks from the day it had it's last vaccines." 

We explain WHY it's stupid, WHY it's ignorant, and WHY it creates a problem. However, we use all those words. AND just like I did in the post, we explain that it's normal and commonplace. We say it's great they are coming for help. And you know what, the dogs go through the program and become "happier", healthier, more well-rounded, well-adjusted, dogs. We've heard "surely you've switched my dog with another." On numerous occasions. 

There is a reason a lot of the dogs at dog parks are younger. Because when they get older and some maturity problems arise, they have had enough, and there are no erasers with living things..they remember these experiences and react accordingly. Martem I believe you brought your male to dog parks until he started pushing more for "blood foals," at maturity..right?? ;-)

We have clients where the dog has bit...multiple times...one even had a lawsuit against it. No time for flowers and rainbows and coddling. And trust me, I get it back ten fold in the sport world from my mentors and training directors. I'm a puppy dog compared to those rough old dogs(and they are even MORE blunt and MORE "rude lol). And no one is short on clients and no one is short on members. 

However, OP didn't come for advice. He/she honestly thought it was good to see the *pup fight back.* I disagree. I've seen the ramifications of this mindset continuing. I believe the best way to really leave a lasting impression is to be a little shocking and surprising. So, in a short, blunt, to the point, manner, I explained my thoughts. Call it rude all you want, in my short time of helping obedience train client dogs, I see the results of dog parks again. and again. and again. Forgive me if I am a little "rude." I DID say it was commonplace. ~shrug.~ ;-)

On another note, I generally am starting to think the whole "I protect my dog" thing is silly too. I want my dog to defend himself. I want him to defend me and family. What I DON'T want is for him to LEARN that other things (dog in particular) pose a general threat. I DON'T want him to *learn* that he has to be PREPARED for an attack. I think this is taught in the impressionable early stage, by controlling the environment and keeping things as structured as possible. I want my dog neutral. Period. I want to be the one making decisions, and I want him to learn to wait for my command to react, while maintaining a balance of self preservation (of course) and protection (as is expected of this breed). That would be an interesting topic to discuss.


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## martemchik

Yeah, and the more you see your dog react and put other dogs in their place, the less fun a dog park gets. Truthfully, once you realize that your dog can do a ton of harm to some other dog, and you could be held liable for the crap your dog does, hopefully you stop going.

I used to think that if it was the other dog that started the fight, my dog could finish it if he felt like it. But then why is it necessary for my dog to hurt another one...just to teach it or its owner a lesson? Meh, not worth it.


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## Nikitta

I think people new to this breed think it's cool that they are in-your-face personalities. Personally? If this breed goes for it extreme, they can be monsters. You HAVE to control them. They need to be trained that it's NOT ok to attack. They are wonderful smart intelligent beyond believe dogs;BUT you need to know what your getting into here. Your in the right place. People here are beyond intelligent about this breed. Listen to them.


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## Ace GSD

martemchik said:


> Yeah, and the more you see your dog react and put other dogs in their place, the less fun a dog park gets. Truthfully, once you realize that your dog can do a ton of harm to some other dog, and you could be held liable for the crap your dog does, hopefully you stop going.
> 
> I used to think that if it was the other dog that started the fight, my dog could finish it if he felt like it. But then why is it necessary for my dog to hurt another one...just to teach it or its owner a lesson? Meh, not worth it.


I agree thats what i was thinking but as i read more from people experience this all could do more harm to my dog than the bullying dogs. Another reason why i love being in this place.. it teach me so much


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## Juliem24

Like Jax08 said: you don't want to be in that place. I agree with the neutrality that DaniFani spoke about. I don't want to have to protect my dog, but I have to because of his previous life (apparently ). I didn't know enough to read the signals, and the dog and I paid. Raise the dog in a neutral mindset. The dog isn't your child, the only gain for "standing up to bullies" is making the owner feel better. Don't put your dog in that position so you feel better. I can guarantee you you're gonna feel a lot worse. Plus, you don't want your dog to be injured, that's what happens in fights.


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## Sunflowers

This thread reminds me of a blast from the past:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...n/174227-you-may-not-like-kira-grew-pair.html


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## Colie CVT

Everyone has brought up the issue with dogs learning how to bully from other dogs who are bullies. 

I wanted to bring up, since I haven't really seen it in replies, that if a dog is being pushed by another dog, there is a difference between standing their ground and saying I am not okay with that, and overreacting where they physically grab or push around the other dog. 

If one of my older dogs doesn't like how another dog is poking at them or possibly pushing at them, they will turn with a growl and snap, then move away from the situation. A dog is in their right to say, I am not okay with this. Please stop. But that is what it should be. A quick, Enough!, but there shouldn't be contact and the parties should walk away. That is what would be proper dog etiquette. You don't usually see it in dog parks. 

The best thing I've ever done for one of my dogs was keep him far from the dog park. We socialize with dogs that I know, people whom I trust and because of that, when he decided to become reactive around the age that Ace is, I was able to get control and help him learn what was appropriate and what wasn't. I can take him on large group hikes and to large dog events now without worry. He backs off if another dog barks/lunges at him, I watch the other dog's body language as much as he does, and we get out of potentially bad situations. He is appropriately greeting other dogs now and is more relaxed and open to the idea of playing with them when he used to be more "I will get you first". 

It isn't fun. It isn't safe. And I'm vastly happier that I can get his attention refocused and that he will walk away now on his own. He has no reason to handle a situation. I do it for him.


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## Debanneball

I would NEVER want my dog to attack another dog. Maybe chase a squirrel or two.. What would I do if a dog attacked him, what would he do.. Hope I never have to find that out.


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## Sunflowers

Ace GSD said:


> that place.. its just convenient when you can just sit down and let the dog work out.


And there you have it.

The real reason why people go to dog parks.

It's not for the dog, it's so they can be lazy, and they think the dog gets exercised. 

The problem is, if everyone feels the same and just lets their dogs run amok instead of providing the training and time with the owner, they will be undisciplined dogs around which you don't need Ace to be.

GSDs are horrible dog park dogs. They are not for the lazy owner. 

You got the dog, it is your responsibility to provide what it needs.


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## Ace GSD

Sunflowers said:


> [/COLOR]
> And there you have it.
> 
> The real reason why people go to dog parks.
> 
> It's not for the dog, it's so they can be lazy, and they think the dog gets exercised.
> 
> The problem is, if everyone feels the same and just lets their dogs run amok instead of providing the training and time with the owner, they will be undisciplined dogs around which you don't need Ace to be.
> 
> GSDs are horrible dog park dogs. They are not for the lazy owner.
> 
> You got the dog, it is your responsibility to provide what it needs.


I am 100% with you .


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## onyx'girl

There is a friend of mine who's intact GSD went to daycare all his life. Now at almost 2 he's becoming the aggressive dog that starts something(over a stick or a rock in the play yard). Twice in the past month he's become aggressive/resource guarding with two different dogs he's known for a long time.
Friend decided to pull him before he gets kicked out. 
Neutering may help, but GSDs are not usually able to handle such environments at maturity....especially with out their owner in the realm. And some dogs will taunt others until the dog can't take it anymore and the dog will take control of the situation. Neutral is great, but that also takes huge self control in certain instances.
When dogs are left to their own decision making, seldom does it end well.


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## d4lilbitz

DaniFani said:


> Well I'll say it. This is ridiculous and stupid. Situations like everything you've described are how/why dogs become dog aggressive. That dog was wrong, you were wrong, the other "police officer" (how ludicrous) dogs are wrong...whole thing is wrong. You dog is learning other dogs will attack it. This could lead to your dog being the provoker in the future (I'll get him before he gets me). Silly ignorance, and unfortunately...commonplace in most dog park scenarios.


Well said! I agree : ) OP no dog parks...you want everything to be positive for your dog. Even if you have 100% over your dog, some people don't. No reason to risk your dog learning bad habits from this experience.


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## d4lilbitz

Ace GSD said:


> I agree with this part.. thats why just because that corgi being mean doesn't mean i have to read the old man the dog park rule and ask him to leave... or ruin my day by going home 5 mins after we just got there.


By this though, it seems you are going to remain in an environment where your dogs feels it has to protect itself. It realizes that by pinning the corgi down, it stops the bullying. He then may try it with another dog who is more dominant...Pinning that dog won't work and a dog fight with start...best bet is to not go at all.


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