# "Leave it" and other crazy human things



## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

My 9 week old is doing SO good with most things - potty training, sit, down, come, etc., but everything that I've always had an easy time with on previous dogs, this one just doesn't get.

"Leave it" is apparently the most complicated thing in the world. I have never had an issue teaching leave it - it's usually the first thing I am able to teach a puppy. This one thinks it's a fun game in which she must get the treat at all costs.

Also, she cannot leave her food or water bowls in place. She paws at them to tip them over, carries them across the house, and has a great time doing it. She will only eat her food off of the floor after it has scattered everywhere and she has played with it.

I swear she gets enough playtime and interaction and enough sleep. What have you guys done?


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## Lorrie (Jun 13, 2016)

Hi Katie,
Congrats on the new pup! I have an 11 week old GSD. (Our third GSD we've had and 2nd dog right now, we also have a miniature Goldendoodle). We have been use the neater feeder for the last 10 years or so. It keeps the bowls in place and really helps with all the extra water that gets splashed about when the dogs drink. You just have to keep up with emptying the bottom of it because it gets pretty nasty if you don't. I bought the neater feeder on Amazon, but, I've seen it sold elsewhere as well. Prices really vary, so, shop around if you get one.

As far as the struggle you are having with the 'leave it' command, I have not started to use leave it with treats yet. I'm only using it with things that he tries to grab that he shouldn't, e.g. curtains, our hands, shoes, etc. Maybe give it a few weeks until he has it down with other things before using with treats?

Have fun with your puppy!
Lorraine


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

leave it is a bit much for a 9 week old puppy.


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

Hmm, this is weird to hear. My trainer swears by teaching "leave it" first, and I did that with my last 3 puppies with ease. They were all labs, though, and it seems like this GSD is much more food motivated and intelligent (sorry labs :grin2, so maybe we will wait a little while. I'd rather she keep her food drive and not learn leave it for a few weeks.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

That's pretty interesting. I don't know any dog that can learn "leave it" at 9 weeks of age.

From what I understand, they should have not been away from their mother until a week ago (8 weeks) so, in one weeks time you have trained these dogs "leave it".?

How do they know that? What is it they are leaving? - because they are still getting to know everything in the world around them and hopefully this time is spent bonding and giving reassurance and rewards.??

Try the "leave it" command when they are potty trained, respond to treat training, have learned to walk on a leash and are old enough to have some clue about what "leave it" might mean...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Leave it is one of the first things I teach after sit. I've never had an issue, they get it pretty quick. I've never really had problems with them picking stuff up and eating it(especially rocks), I tell them to leave it and they do. I also teach drop it, that is in case they grab it before I see and leave it isn't for that, no problems with drop it either. How are you teaching it? I've seen a couple ways, but the way I do it is put dog in sit, have two treats in my hand, drop one and say leave it as I drop it, if the dog goes for it I put my foot ovef it and make a sound to get their attention(I never repeat the command of say the name--just a noise), as soon as they look at me I give the treat in my hand and pick up treat on the floor--they never get the treat that is on the floor.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Llombardo are you talking about training this at 9 weeks and being frustrated because they don't get it?

See OP.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Llombardo are you talking about training this at 9 weeks?


I start training with all mine the day after they come home. They all officially started school at about 12 weeks and they were way ahead of other dogs--all of them. So Robyn was about 13 weeks when she learned it, Tannor was about 9 weeks, Apollo was about 10 weeks(maybe 10.5 weeks-not sure how old he was when I found him) and Brennan was older--he couldn't sit still, he still can't...LOL, he was about 16 weeks or so when he finally got it. The rest were older when I got them, but they all know it. This actually allowed them more freedom and more fun time. All of them were able to be out of crates pretty young and they never destroyed anything really. 

It's one of the easiest things to teach I think. You start with food and then extend it to pretty much everything else, even if they are looking at another dog--leave it means don't bother with it. It can be a life saving command if they pick stuff up and eat it, they can get in lots of trouble medically with that.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Katie Chambers said:


> This one thinks it's a fun game in which she must get the treat at all costs.


I might be misunderstanding your process.......it sounds like you are using an item the pup should "leave" but ultimately gets.....????

Seems like you are training impulse control rather than leave it.

My version of training leave it.....never ever allowed the pup to have the item.....ever. The "treat" for leaving another object ( leave it ) created less confusion.

Think pup eating a dog crap/mushrooms....a snake etc........that's a leave it item....as in never.

SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I start training with all mine the day after they come home. They all officially started school at about 12 weeks and they were way ahead of other dogs--all of them. So Robyn was about 13 weeks when she learned it, Tannor was about 9 weeks, Apollo was about 10 weeks(maybe 10.5 weeks-not sure how old he was when I found him) and Brennan was older--he couldn't sit still, he still can't...LOL, he was about 16 weeks or so when he finally got it. The rest were older when I got them, but they all know it. This actually allowed them more freedom and more fun time. All of them were able to be out of crates pretty young and they never destroyed anything really.
> 
> It's one of the easiest things to teach I think. You start with food and then extend it to pretty much everything else, even if they are looking at another dog--leave it means don't bother with it. It can be a life saving command if they pick stuff up and eat it, they can get in lots of trouble medically with that.


The only part I was asking about is expections and frustration that a puppy does not learn at 9 WEEKS leave it....?? Your post sounds like that should be a piece of cake at that age??


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SuperG said:


> I might be misunderstanding your process.......it sounds like you are using an item the pup should "leave" but ultimately gets.....????
> 
> Seems like you are training impulse control rather than leave it.
> 
> ...


Exactly


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I started to work on leave it around 8 1/2 weeks. 2nd thing he learned after "sit". Of course it's something that we worked on consistently until about 8 months but he knew the basics of it after a few days. 

I too, use the two treat method. However I make sure one treat is waaaaay higher value. I use a yucky stale milk bone type treat and then something super duper yummy like bits of cooked steak and bits of cheese. 

I put the milk bone on the ground and put my foot over it so there is no way in heck he can get it. When he is all interested in the milkbone, sniffing, pawing at my feet, etc. I say leave it. As soon as he looks away (sometimes at first he needed to be lured with the yummy treats) I clicked and rewarded. Didn't take more then a few repetitions before he started swinging his head around looking for the better noms. 

Then it's just a matter of slowly progressing, using different baits, moving my foot off, and generalising. 

But NEVER allow him to get the forbidden object. That has always been key.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> The only part I was asking about is expections and frustration that a puppy does not learn at 9 WEEKS leave it....?? Your post sounds like that should be a piece of cake at that age??


It was pretty easy. I never had a problem with it, it's one of my favorite commands to teach. They all picked it up really quick. i think the problem with Brennan was that I went to a different trained and she taught it different. I did not like how she taught it--it was my version of take it. I got frustrated with that and finally told her that I didn't teach it that way, she let me teach it my way and he got it. It's a pretty simple command, really it is, I swear.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Well, this is beyond me. I'm not sure how you trained the "leave it" command before your pups were potty trained, but I guess you did.

So, I would take it that you are supporting the OP that the pup is quite old enough to learn "leave it and her/his frustrations are valid, because you did it'. OK - I'm in a different world.

I was trying to say slow down, but apparently leave it comes before potty training? All good, I just have never trained a 9 week old puppy that way.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

voodoolamb said:


> I started to work on leave it around 8 1/2 weeks. 2nd thing he learned after "sit". Of course it's something that we worked on consistently until about 8 months but he knew the basics of it after a few days.
> 
> I too, use the two treat method. However I make sure one treat is waaaaay higher value. I use a yucky stale milk bone type treat and then something super duper yummy like bits of cooked steak and bits of cheese.
> 
> ...


I pretty much do it the same way, except I toss the treat to the floor and say leave it as it leaves my hand. I don't put my foot over it unless they go for it. If they go for it, the foot goes over it. Once that treat is on the ground I don't repeat thd command, I say nothing, but I would make a clicking noise or something and when they looked at me I gave them the treat and praise. Pretty close to the same--I didn't use a clicker either.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Well, this is beyond me. I'm not sure how you trained the "leave it" command before your pups were potty trained, but I guess you did.
> 
> So, I would take it that you are supporting the OP that the pup is quite old enough to learn "leave it and her/his frustrations are valid, because you did it'. OK - I'm in a different world.
> 
> I was trying to say slow down, but apparently leave it comes before potty training? All good, I just have never trained a 9 week old puppy that way.


What would potty training have to do with any commands? I think all of mine knew sit, leave it, down and come before they were potty trained:laugh2: once those were learned we moved on to sit/stays, down/stays, fronts and finishes. They pretty much knew all that by 6 months old. This is where people stop training because the later commands are harder and people dong think the dog is getting it, then one day you tell your dog to sit, stay and walk away. Then you tell them front and around and your mouth is on the floor because they did it perfectly. All that work paid off, they did get it and it all comes together.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> It was pretty easy. I never had a problem with it, it's one of my favorite commands to teach. They all picked it up really quick. i think the problem with Brennan was that I went to a different trained and she taught it different. I did not like how she taught it--it was my version of take it. I got frustrated with that and finally told her that I didn't teach it that way, she let me teach it my way and he got it. It's a pretty simple command, really it is, I swear.


My concern is that at age... common.. 9 weeks! They are learning bonding and socialization as a primary - the best they can know at 9 weeks is good/reward or bad/withdraw. My whole focus on training this, my 4th and last GSD is not to break her spirit while retaining control. I want this one to work in every way.

What happens when less than 7 days after a puppy leaves it's dam that you impose "leave it" or in essence "NO"? You have not yet bonded with the puppy, it has no real idea of it's world - it's simply responding to negative stimuli and has no concept except "withdraw", "leave" "bad". 

I understand that you believe that a 9 week old puppy can and should be taught "leave it" but it's against every grain in my fiber about developing bonding time as an owner before you impose rules they cannot hope to understand. They have no concept? Just comfort, reward,fear....


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I pretty much do it the same way, except I toss the treat to the floor and say leave it as it leaves my hand. I don't put my foot over it unless they go for it. If they go for it, the foot goes over it. Once that treat is on the ground I don't repeat thd command, I say nothing, but I would make a clicking noise or something and when they looked at me I gave them the treat and praise. Pretty close to the same--I didn't use a clicker either.


Tossing the bait treat is one of the things I do after the basic idea is learned to make things a little more difficult.then we move on to toys, and living critters hehehe

I play lots of fetch type games with my pups. I've found the movement of tossing the treat elicits a bit more interest/play response then I would like in the initial learning stages. I basically sneak the milk bone down while the pup isn't looking them let him "discover" it. Usually do it while I'm vegging on the couch watching tv. Puppy plays. Comes over. Finds the cookie. Learns leave it. Goes plays some more while I put another dry tasteless milkbone down. 

But yeah. Basically the same concept. And one that works well for starting younger pups on!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

So, this is what you are passing on to the newbies. That it's perfectly reasonable to expect to have them trained in the Sit, Down and Come before they're potty trained, at 9 weeks. Amazing....

OK - color me gone from this site. I don't live in your world and I don't want any part of it. You do what you will do with 9 week old puppies and I will do different.


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> Well, this is beyond me. I'm not sure how you trained the "leave it" command before your pups were potty trained, but I guess you did.
> 
> So, I would take it that you are supporting the OP that the pup is quite old enough to learn "leave it and her/his frustrations are valid, because you did it'. OK - I'm in a different world.
> 
> I was trying to say slow down, but apparently leave it comes before potty training? All good, I just have never trained a 9 week old puppy that way.


No frustration here! I was just kind of taken by surprise that Ellie is having such a difficult time with it since my other dogs have done SO well at her age.
I started to teach each one leave it at 8 weeks when they came in. It was more impulse control but was setting the pathway for leave it. I handfed every meal. I would start by holding a piece of kibble in my hand, waiting for the puppy to stop trying to get it, open hand and allow the puppy to have it. Move up to making the puppy wait at an open hand with kibble, eventually saying the release "okay". Then, requiring the puppy to leave the kibble and maintain eye contact with me until I said "okay". Eventually you put a command with leave it, put kibble on the ground, Etc. This encourages "leave it" and impulse control while also forming a bond between the handler and puppy. It also helps a TON with training because once a treat or food bowl is brought out, they will stare you down in the eye for the rest of their life. This attention makes commands and training sessions a breeze. 
I should've been more clear, I don't think this is the most common way of teaching "leave it". Nevertheless, this seems to be over Ellie's head for now. We will keep working on it in a week or so.


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

Not that potty training has to do with the price of tea in China, but Ellie was potty trained the day she came home. She saw my released SDiT (who is now living with her new family) go potty outside a few times and has never had an accident in the house since. I'm just bragging now.. she is awesome!!!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Katie Chambers said:


> No frustration here! I was just kind of taken by surprise that Ellie is having such a difficult time with it since my other dogs have done SO well at her age.
> I started to teach each one leave it at 8 weeks when they came in. It was more impulse control but was setting the pathway for leave it. I handfed every meal. I would start by holding a piece of kibble in my hand, waiting for the puppy to stop trying to get it, open hand and allow the puppy to have it. Move up to making the puppy wait at an open hand with kibble, eventually saying the release "okay". Then, requiring the puppy to leave the kibble and maintain eye contact with me until I said "okay". Eventually you put a command with leave it, put kibble on the ground, Etc. This encourages "leave it" and impulse control while also forming a bond between the handler and puppy. It also helps a TON with training because once a treat or food bowl is brought out, they will stare you down in the eye for the rest of their life. This attention makes commands and training sessions a breeze.
> I should've been more clear, I don't think this is the most common way of teaching "leave it". Nevertheless, this seems to be over Ellie's head for now. We will keep working on it in a week or so.


My only point is that you have had her only 7 days. How many commands do you expect her to learn between 8 and 9 weeks old?

That's why it's surprising to myself at least that you posted here expressing frustrations she has not grasped "leave it" yet at 9 weeks of age. I must be on a different planet because I have now Idea why you're frustrated and why people are saying it's so easy to teach at 9 weeks old. I'm sorry, with all due respect - it's out of my world.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I must be such a meanie. I never train LEAVE IT! I just say it I a MEAN tone and my dogs _get_ it, and leave it immediately. Softer ones, won't go near it again. Bolder ones will try later, but eye me first and I will give them the Hairy Eyeball and say calmly, but firmly, LEAVE IT. And they walk away. 

I know once upon a time in some class or three, we worked on this during class. When we did, I remember it as being leaving a marshmallow that the dog never got. When the dog avoided the marshmallow and looked to us instead, we praised and treated the dog with a hot dog. Did this several times, and I don't know if that dog would ever go near a marshmallow again, without scoping out me to see if I had hot dogs. Since I don't like marshmallows, and never buy them, I doubt I will ever know the answer to this. 

I will on walks, crisply say, LEAVE IT, while walking firmly onward when there is something I don't want them to bother. In Therapy dog testing, there was the treat things, a quick LEAVE IT, was all that was needed. Doing the figure 8 with distractions in Rally Advanced, a WITH ME, or HEEL prevents the dog from scoping out the covered dishes -- I might throw in a leave it, in an ordinary conversational tone, (no training in the ring).

ETA: I use management around baby puppies though.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Katie Chambers said:


> Not that potty training has to do with the price of tea in China, but Ellie was potty trained the day she came home. She saw my released SDiT (who is now living with her new family) go potty outside a few times and has never had an accident in the house since. I'm just bragging now.. she is awesome!!!


IMO Potty is basic learning which they already have a natural leg up on to go away from their place of habitation.

IMO The "leave it" command requires more complex thinking, otherwise they are likely to LO when it's perfectly fine for them to explore or do what they are doing. By enforcing this at 9 weeks, to me you are taking away any individual reason and decisioning making and that animal becomes totally dependent on what is ok and what is not. When they get a little older, they can associate and make decisions but not at 9 weeks. You're training them into being robots.


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> That's why it's surprising to myself at least that you posted here expressing frustrations she has not grasped "leave it" yet at 9 weeks of age.


Again, I have never once been frustrated here or gotten flustered with my puppy. I was simply seeking advice since I'm new to German Shepherds. I wasn't sure if anyone else had better success with this breed using different techniques. On my first reply to this post I said we may leave "leave it" alone for a few weeks, as I've never had this happen and she may not be ready... it seems like you're the frustrated one here. Relax! I've trained several puppies and am careful not to overwhelm them... which is why I posted in here. 

Seeking advice is very different from expressing frustration. Ellie is a wonderful girl and is doing much better in general than any of my previous puppies. I'm so proud. :smile2:


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

selzer said:


> I must be such a meanie. I never train LEAVE IT! I just say it I a MEAN tone and my dogs _get_ it, and leave it immediately. Softer ones, won't go near it again. Bolder ones will try later, but eye me first and I will give them the Hairy Eyeball and say calmly, but firmly, LEAVE IT. And they walk away.


Lol.. My parents teach their dogs this way and sometimes I feel like they have a stronger "leave it" than the ones that I take to class to learn this stuff.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Well, this is beyond me. I'm not sure how you trained the "leave it" command before your pups were potty trained, but I guess you did.
> 
> So, I would take it that you are supporting the OP that the pup is quite old enough to learn "leave it and her/his frustrations are valid, because you did it'. OK - I'm in a different world.
> 
> I was trying to say slow down, but apparently leave it comes before potty training? All good, I just have never trained a 9 week old puppy that way.


I think the distinction is what do you consider "trained"? 

To me, leave it is like "stay". It's a simple command but can take a long time to have it proofed well enough for the real world. 

I start teaching leave it almost immediately, but it is not a command I give and expect to be followed in real world/uncontrolled situations until weeks after it was introduced. 

I am a fan of training from the get go. My guy's start house training, crate training, learning the foundation for recall, leash walking, place, and the commands sit and leave it all pretty much from day 2 home.. Oh not to mention their names. I give them that first 24 hours to decompress. Older dogs get more decompression time and the 2 week shut down. Puppies are blank slates.

Pups are tough little creatures. They're smart and ALWAYS learning anyways. I like to take advantage of that. I find training isn't a linear thing. Both my pup's and I thrive on working on multiple things every day. And it's not like I am being a military drill sargent with their training. A lot of my training takes place during play. Which also has the added benefit of instilling a good "off switch" and keep things fun. It's not a big deal to take a sleepy puppy over to his mat and not allow him off of it until he falls asleep (foundation for place), or reward the heck out of your pup when he comes to you (foundation for recall) or stop dead in your tracks the moment there is tension on the leash (foundation for loose leash walking). Personally I think it's harder for the pup to get into a routine and then you decide to start training and end up interrupting it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> I must be such a meanie. I never train LEAVE IT! I just say it I a MEAN tone and my dogs _get_ it, and leave it immediately. Softer ones, won't go near it again. Bolder ones will try later, but eye me first and I will give them the Hairy Eyeball and say calmly, but firmly, LEAVE IT. And they walk away.
> 
> I know once upon a time in some class or three, we worked on this during class. When we did, I remember it as being leaving a marshmallow that the dog never got. When the dog avoided the marshmallow and looked to us instead, we praised and treated the dog with a hot dog. Did this several times, and I don't know if that dog would ever go near a marshmallow again, without scoping out me to see if I had hot dogs. Since I don't like marshmallows, and never buy them, I doubt I will ever know the answer to this.
> 
> ...


I understand, everyone has different ways but at 9 weeks - common.... This, unless you are a pro trainier goes against expectations you should have for a 9 week old puppy. Yet, evey post here, except for mine (once again lol) says piece of cake or does not address the 9 week old issue at all. I'm very ashamed of these post because, even though I've only owned 5 GSD's I KNOW BETTER>

You want to keep filling the shelters up with GSD's, keep giving this 9 week old carp advise going. Shame on you.


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> I start teaching leave it almost immediately, but it is not a command I give and expect to be followed in real world/uncontrolled situations until weeks after it was introduced.
> 
> I am a fan of training from the get go. My guy's start house training, crate training, learning the foundation for recall, leash walking, place, and the commands sit and leave it all pretty much from day 2 home..


Same here. I start to build the foundations for "leave it" and whatnot from 2-3 days home depending on the puppy. I can't imagine what Ellie would do without our training sessions and brain work outs... when she is super hyper and will not sleep or play, we do some training and she is put at ease. She is too smart not to have a job.

I certainly don't expect her to perfect "leave it" for quite a while. The only reason I posted here is because she doesn't seem to be making any progress on the foundations of "leave it". I've gotten a lot of good advice here and we will start using some of these new techniques!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

When Max was a pup he often went over to Toppers our chihuahua crate looking to play. It is how "leave it "was first used. I would give a firm "leave it "and when he stopped focusing on topper I gave him a yummy treAt. Eventually he started to "leave it" real well.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I think the distinction is what do you consider "trained"?
> 
> To me, leave it is like "stay". It's a simple command but can take a long time to have it proofed well enough for the real world.
> 
> ...


And they got their puppy at 8 weeks they are on this board complaining about how at 9 weeks your puppy didn't know the "leave it".... This is what the post is about... not all puppy training over a 10 week period of time. Why, isn't anyone seeing this???


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Katie Chambers said:


> No frustration here! I was just kind of taken by surprise that Ellie is having such a difficult time with it since my other dogs have done SO well at her age.
> I started to teach each one leave it at 8 weeks when they came in. It was more impulse control but was setting the pathway for leave it. I handfed every meal. I would start by holding a piece of kibble in my hand, waiting for the puppy to stop trying to get it, open hand and allow the puppy to have it. Move up to making the puppy wait at an open hand with kibble, eventually saying the release "okay". Then, requiring the puppy to leave the kibble and maintain eye contact with me until I said "okay". Eventually you put a command with leave it, put kibble on the ground, Etc. This encourages "leave it" and impulse control while also forming a bond between the handler and puppy. It also helps a TON with training because once a treat or food bowl is brought out, they will stare you down in the eye for the rest of their life. This attention makes commands and training sessions a breeze.
> I should've been more clear, I don't think this is the most common way of teaching "leave it". Nevertheless, this seems to be over Ellie's head for now. We will keep working on it in a week or so.


Maybe a different technique would work better for your girl


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Maybe a different technique would work better for your girl


I think so! She's so intelligent and high-energy. I love it! I'll definitely start trying different methods.


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

Sorry if there was any misunderstanding, guys...
I didn't come here to complain about my puppy not knowing leave it. That was not the intent of this post whatsoever. She is doing absolutely amazing for her age. I just came for some advice since I'm new to GSDs. The only reason I even asked about it is because "leave it" can sometimes be a lifesaver when they're after a roach or piece of chocolate, so I like to start as early as possible. I am not frustrated that my 9 week old baby doesn't know "leave it" yet. She is wonderful and I love her. :grin2:

I've gotten a lot of awesome advice and we will start working on new methods!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> And they got their puppy at 8 weeks they are on this board complaining about how at 9 weeks your puppy didn't know the "leave it".... This is what the post is about... not all puppy training over a 10 week period of time. Why, isn't anyone seeing this???


 I didn't read the tone of the OP as frustrated/complaining. I got more of a tongue in cheek vibe from it. My initial thoughts wasn't that she was frustrated her puppy didn't KNOW the command, just that she was a little "huh" as to why her pup didn't seem to make ANY progress with it when it was doing so well with everything else. Which made me think that maybe her training technique didn't work for this particular pup. Then llombardo posted her style which was similar to mine - that seemed to work well as a foundation for that age range. So I just shared my spin on it. 

Even so, after I did explain my technique for it, I added that after the mere basics were done it would still be a slow progression of adding difficultly, different baits and generalising it. So as NOT to set up the expectation that it will be 100% trained.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Katie Chambers said:


> Sorry if there was any misunderstanding, guys...
> I didn't come here to complain about my puppy not knowing leave it. That was not the intent of this post whatsoever. She is doing absolutely amazing for her age. I just came for some advice since I'm new to GSDs. The only reason I even asked about it is because "leave it" can sometimes be a lifesaver when they're after a roach or piece of chocolate, so I like to start as early as possible. I am not frustrated that my 9 week old baby doesn't know "leave it" yet. She is wonderful and I love her. :grin2:
> 
> I've gotten a lot of awesome advice and we will start working on new methods!


Hahaha no worries. Glad you came back and clarified for us. You posted this while I was writing how my mind read your original post. Sometimes what we say in text comes across is weird ways then what we actually intended! 

Good luck with your girl.

Oh. And remember. Advice on this board isn't free. We expect payment. Payment in the form of puppy pictures


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

What does bonding time mean (especially the first week they are in your home)?

What does reward time mean, what does no reward mean, what does punishment mean, what does pay attention mean.... in a 9 week old puppy that has been away from it's mother for 1 week>

I get, you want them to learn , sit, down and leave it" in that week. 
Between teaching all that obedience - where did the few days of bonding time go - the thing that will encourage them to work for you and consider you their leader? This reeks of the "superpuppy" way of training which rose and fell in about 18 mos. 

And not one of you, is saying that this is not a reasonable expectation of a GSD pup between 8 & 9 weeks of age. The next guy that post's here that says he read about these dogs and they should get it a week after he got them so he's hitting the the pup because the pup should know better - you dealt it. These posts go to thousands and you know that....

Most of the posts I put here sound idiotic with my experience with 5 GSD's - I only post here for the thousands that read but do not post. That's where I'm trying to help - this kind of post just justifies the bottom thinking.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Katie Chambers said:


> I think so! She's so intelligent and high-energy. I love it! I'll definitely start trying different methods.


She sounds like a spit-fire! I love it. Have you played flirt pole with her yet? Bet she'd love it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> I understand, everyone has different ways but at 9 weeks - common.... This, unless you are a pro trainier goes against expectations you should have for a 9 week old puppy. Yet, evey post here, except for mine (once again lol) says piece of cake or does not address the 9 week old issue at all. I'm very ashamed of these post because, even though I've only owned 5 GSD's I KNOW BETTER>
> 
> You want to keep filling the shelters up with GSD's, keep giving this 9 week old carp advise going. Shame on you.


 
uhm, look at my post, it says, "Baby puppies I use management with." 

I thought that was pretty self-explanatory. I keep dangerous crap away from baby puppies, and crap I don't want to clean up away from them. I might say, "Eh-eh, Mine" and redirect to something they might like to play with more, with a "Yours." And if I drop a bunch of pills, chocolate, broken glass, I scoop the pup up and put it out of Harm's way and then clean up whatever it is. 

At some point, and I am not going to say 10 weeks or 9 weeks, or 15 weeks or 6 months, LEAVE IT! comes out of my mouth, and they leave it. I suppose it is different for each pup as they are all individuals. 

Also, all my current dogs save one who I got at 3 years old were born there, so at 9 weeks they may be wild piranha still, but they already know and trust me. I do doubt I would use LEAVE IT on them, because with more than one, it would be much harder to enforce it. I'd outwit them and get them out or behind a baby gate where they were safe and take care of the problem.

And it wasn't advice. I was listening to other people talking about training LEAVE IT, and I said what I do. I did not say, this is how it is done. I said this is what I do, and this is how we learned it, when we did work on it at school. 

Taking a treat and playing with it, with a command, and eventually giving that treat to the dog is increasing drive for the treat. That is not what anyone wants to do. It could in some cases, I suppose create some food aggression, and it does not give the impression that something that was given a LEAVE IT is actually off limits.


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> What does bonding time mean (especially the first week they are in your home)?
> The next guy that post's here that says he read about these dogs and they should get it a week after he got them so he's hitting the the pup because the pup should know better - you dealt it.


To the thousands that read this post and have high expectations for your puppy: work with a responsible, respected trainer and follow their advice. I have spent the majority of the time with my new puppy bonding and encouraging exposure and socialization with positive rewards. She is pushing 10 weeks so I have had her for about two. We do about three-four 10 minute training sessions a day. The rest of the time is spent bonding and socializing. Ellie follows me everywhere and listens very well. We have an awesome bond already which is essential. There is nothing wrong with laying the foundations for commands during the first week of having your puppy home. Every puppy is different and you need to know your puppy's limits. Ellie is extremely intelligent and high energy and she NEEDS this mental stimulation. She already knows to pee on command. The other puppies of mine that have learned "leave it" during the first week of being home have not been half as generally successful as Ellie is. 
Just don't be an idiot and know your puppy. You can teach a 2 year old the alphabet with the right kind of motivation and patience.


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> She sounds like a spit-fire! I love it. Have you played flirt pole with her yet? Bet she'd love it.


I can't say I know "flirt pole". Do explain!!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Katie Chambers said:


> My 9 week old is doing SO good with most things - potty training, sit, down, come, etc., but everything that I've always had an easy time with on previous dogs, this one just doesn't get.
> 
> "Leave it" is apparently the most complicated thing in the world. I have never had an issue teaching leave it - it's usually the first thing I am able to teach a puppy. This one thinks it's a fun game in which she must get the treat at all costs.
> 
> ...


Sounds much better Katie - thank you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> What does bonding time mean (especially the first week they are in your home)?
> 
> What does reward time mean, what does no reward mean, what does punishment mean, what does pay attention mean.... in a 9 week old puppy that has been away from it's mother for 1 week>
> 
> ...


Frankly, all training time is bonding time when you are talking 8-9 weeks. If you are positive. You can train a puppy to do a lot of stuff. The reason I don't is because there are usually 4 of them or even more. Not much you can do with 4 baby puppies all at the same time, and if you take one from the group it is usually looking to get back to the group, and its momma. 

But, once you take that puppy from the group and its momma, you can make training into such a happy, playful game, that the puppy can learn things like LEAVE IT, and WAIT, and COME, and SIT and DOWN, and do them quite reliably. They are trying to engage with the person that they are substituting for their dam and littermates, and most of them want to please. Done right, all you have to do is reinforce, and reinforce through the following weeks and puppy classes then become a place where they learn to perform these things in the presence of other dogs and people.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> What does bonding time mean (especially the first week they are in your home)?
> 
> What does reward time mean, what does no reward mean, what does punishment mean, what does pay attention mean.... in a 9 week old puppy that has been away from it's mother for 1 week>
> 
> ...


Training IS bonding. 

And it is an on going process. 

My guy is 14 months. Guess what we are still working on? SIT! 

It was something we started on breakfast after his first night home. At first he had to be lured the first few repetition. Then he needed a hand signal along with the verbal a few weeks. Then we started building duration. It took months to get him to fit 15 minutes straight. Then distractions. The first couple times I asked for a sit in the middle of a dog park I had to put a little pressure on his rump. Last night I put him in a sit and the little bugger decided he was tired and went into a down instead. 

We have been working on the simplest of commands for a year now. 

It's all about having reasonable expectations. You can start training day 1 as long as you have realistic expectations. At 8 weeks I expect my puppy to plop his butt on the floor kinda sloppily with a little guidance in the form of a hand signal and hold it for 5 seconds. At 8 months I expect him to sit quickly at the mere verbal command out in the front yard for 5 minutes. t 18 months I will expect him to sit quickly, and precisely in the middle of down town for 15 minutes.

I still don't consider my boy fully trained. Maybe when he is around 14 years instead of months we will have that distinction. Lol


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> Sounds much better Katie - thank you.


I haven't edited the OP. Maybe there was a misunderstanding. I hope all puppy newbies don't get the wrong impression of this post. I see where you were going now!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Katie Chambers said:


> I can't say I know "flirt pole". Do explain!!


Before you consider the "flirt pole" please consider the sharp turns that your young puppy will be employing while playing with the flirt pole.

It was recommended against a flirt pole by members here for a growing GSD puppy. You want the best for their growing structure and the reason for caution is because of the less that stellar hip joints in some pups/dogs. :smile2:


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Katie Chambers said:


> I can't say I know "flirt pole". Do explain!!







Great fun. Helps build drive. And they love it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Katie Chambers said:


> I haven't edited the OP. Maybe there was a misunderstanding. I hope all puppy newbies don't get the wrong impression of this post. I see where you were going now!


It's all good katie:smile2: I apologize if I came across a little crazy. I'm probably the least favored member of this forum. Because, I'm just a pet owner and question a lot of things. The reason I post this stuff and persist with some of these topics is because many GSD's read here but do not post here. (the lowly byb purchasers and pet people that purchased from a "bad breeder.

If you look at some of the past topics, you will see crazy numbers like 3,4 or 10,000 views long after the topic has come up here for a few days and gone. There's so many GSD owners out there and mixed breed GSD owners that look to this site for help but they will never come forward.

I have unfortunately been a member and participant of a few posts here in the last year, where some people who posted here for help actually went solely by advise rendered here in an hours time and taken their dog and had it put to sleep. 

That's why.... there are all types of posters here and a few will have no qualms about sending a young pup or recent adoption to it's death based on a few posts here. Scary what the power of an online opinion from who knows who really- There are no experts here, at least in the credentialed way... and they don't come here..


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## Katie Chambers (Jul 12, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> I have unfortunately been a member and participant of a few posts here in the last year, where some people who posted here for help actually went solely by advise rendered here in an hours time and taken their dog and had it put to sleep.


Well that's enough to make anyone crazy!!! I'm all about ending that as soon as possible! I hate to hear that. I'll be careful to make future posts more clear. I, too, know firsthand that inexperienced dog owners can make a dog crazy when using methods/advice of experienced handlers. I didn't even think about the amount of views this site gets! Thank you for the heads up.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

B


Stonevintage said:


> You want to keep filling the shelters up with GSD's, keep giving this 9 week old carp advise going. Shame on you.


Do you know that the most common age for a GSD or really any breed in a shelter is? 6-12 months. Why? People dump these dogs because they have no manners or training, they either expect them to come trained or they do the bare minimum. If you get a dog at 8 weeks and wait until they are 4 months to start training, chances are that dog is already displaying bad manners, it's not going to be easy to undo any bad habits. They need structure, just like a child does. 

My training with my dogs starts at day 1, there is no lack of bonding or fun for them ever. They have 4 classes under their belt by the age of about 1. They are well mannered, healthy and happy. God forbid they were to ever end up in a shelter, they would not have any issues and would be adopted immediately. I set them to succeed from the moment I got them.

Training is a super fun thing to do with a dog. I enjoy nothing more then spending one on one time with them going over every thing they know consistently. And they enjoy it too.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Before you consider the "flirt pole" please consider the sharp turns that your young puppy will be employing while playing with the flirt pole.
> 
> It was recommended against a flirt pole by members here for a growing GSD puppy. You want the best for their growing structure and the reason for caution is because of the less that stellar hip joints in some pups/dogs. :smile2:


Yes, just like with anything be careful not to over do the flirt pole. Don't do too many sharp turns. And keep sessions short. And always play on natural surfaces.

Personally I find the risk/reward for flirt pole play to be 100% worth it to break out the pole! 

It's one of the best ways to exercise a dog in a small area. Letting the pup win the game is a huge confidence builder. I used a tug as my lure and let me tell you, it built such crazy drive for that toy. I have never had a dog switch from food to toy rewards as easily as when switching to the flirt pole lure. I have other tugs but my dog will do back flips for the one we use as a flirt pole lure lol

And omg how much they love it! 

It was highly recommended to me to start my boy on the flirt pole and tug by my IPO trainer. It definitely got the desired results.

But meh. I'm not apt to raise my dog in a bubble. I take them off my property before his vaccinations ( just not to heavy dog traffic areas). I let them run and climb and jump on our outdoor through the woods treks. (Which start as soon as their legs are long enough to keep up) My guys get bumps and bruises. Scrapes and owies. I figure If my pup is genetically predisposed to joint issues - it is what it is. I'm just going to make sure they have a proper diet and not over do it. Let them go at their pace and reel 'em in if they get a little too enthusiastic. 

I'm a bad momma. I freely admit it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> It's all good katie:smile2: I apologize if I came across a little crazy. I'm probably the least favored member of this forum. Because, I'm just a pet owner and question a lot of things. The reason I post this stuff and persist with some of these topics is because many GSD's read here but do not post here. (the lowly byb purchasers and pet people that purchased from a "bad breeder.
> 
> If you look at some of the past topics, you will see crazy numbers like 3,4 or 10,000 views long after the topic has come up here for a few days and gone. There's so many GSD owners out there and mixed breed GSD owners that look to this site for help but they will never come forward.
> 
> ...


Bolded, I am sorry, SV, but this is hogwash. There is no person alive that would take the advice of an on-line forum alone, and with no leanings in that direction prior to ever reaching out, would, within an hour, go and put a dog they cared about to sleep. 

When considering options, this is an option, and for dogs that attack children or adults, it is something people do have to seriously consider, and some of those people probably should put their dog down. 

I personally think fewer people put their dog down than should. People allow dogs to bite more people than they should have ever gotten the chance to bite, and people allow dogs to be in pain far longer than they should have to suffer. 

Saddling this forum with the responsibility for this case (not sure which one among the thousands of success stories you are talking about) is unworthy of you. And I will say what you said to me, shame on you.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> Bolded, I am sorry, SV, but this is hogwash. There is no person alive that would take the advice of an on-line forum alone, and with no leanings in that direction prior to ever reaching out, would, within an hour, go and put a dog they cared about to sleep.
> 
> When considering options, this is an option, and for dogs that attack children or adults, it is something people do have to seriously consider, and some of those people probably should put their dog down.
> 
> ...


I am sure that you remember the 2 occasions in the last 12 months. Yes, you were one that recommended the dog be put down, yes - you had a very good idea that the OP was relying on these posts and yes, that was the result. And if I recall in the aftermath, you called it a good decision, all based on posts here and you and I both know that.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

On this thread the op stated she had trouble teaching "leave it" and asked others what they did. The op got much great advise. All truly is good.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I had one other thought regarding leave it training versus impulse control training....even though it seems there are many similarities. The ultimate goal in leave it training is for the dog to make the correct decision without a positive reward or release pending......whereas impulse control many times has a much higher likelihood of a positive result if the dog minds its manners.... such as the release. Leave it training at its inception is made clear to the dog with the use of both a positive and negative consequence based on the dog's decision. However.....if the dog is left to itself.....the negative consequence for the dog messing with a leave it item is much more likely to make significant impact than any potential reward because none exists when the dog is not under the supervision of its handler. Generally.....leave it training is reinforced and made more reliable because of a negative consequence......maybe to the degree it could be considered an environmental consequence....which will work better in the absence of the handler.

I don't know if I would use the same measures with a 9 week old puppy as I might a 5 month old.....but I might be a softie.




SuperG


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Just as if I'm teaching something new my pup/dog gets rewarded with a treat or toy no correction. Once he fully understands the particular instruction/ command and I know he knows it well and practiced often and chooses to ignore a instruction/command a correction comes to remind him(leash pop) and a praise when he behaves. Just likeI always trained Max will balls and treats now I'm training things he knows to do very well without treats and toys but with praise and or a slight correction then praise when he corrects himself. We are always learning something new so Im sure to always make it fun.


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