# DDR/Czech lines slow to mature



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

we started talking about this in another thread. sine we didn't want to hyjack a totally different subject line i started one here.

anyway, does anyone have any insite as to why its said that DDR, Czech lines are slow to mature?

i have had some DDR's that matured about the same as other lines, had drive early on, etc. and some that started later. either way, i don't know why people say this when it can be true in any line.

any comments?

debbie


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

In my guys slow maturing was mostly in the matter of size. They were slower to gain their full height and length and then took several more years to fully muscle out.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

my youngest female DDR was slow in both. especially drive. she never showed any ball drive until 6-7 months old, where as in my other DDR dogs they had major ball drive from 8 weeks on. as far a slow growing, this same female is hard to go by with that, because she is VERY small anyway. 2 years old and goes maybe 58, maybe 60 pounds when wet. 

but, in other lines this can be true to, i have seen it, so, i am thinking this slow maturing stuff is an "ole wives tale" ??

debbie


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Thanks Debbie for starting a new one.. This was my question from the other thread..









<<I want to know why the DDR/East German dogs mature slower? What is it about them that make them this way? Or what are they lacking that make people say that all the time?

I could say the same about my W German working line.. My male is 4 and is just now maturing? When I got him at 2 he was every bit immature.. Even looked it.. >>


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i hope someone has some old line research on this? does this maybe stem from the old lines? maybe the new wave breedings of these lines aren't so much like this????

i have always had east german DDR dogs, and as i said i have seen both slow to mature and later to mature, and it doesn't seem to be in gender.

debbie


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

ok, that didn't make sense. i meant to say i have seen normal mature rates and slow mature rates, in my DDR dogs.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Deb- 

I wouldn't say 6-7 months is late.. That might be more of a normal age for things to get going!!

I believe Chaos' drives didn't start until 5 - 6 months.. She had prey/food drive, but it really didn't start amping up until that time..


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, it probably is normal range now that i think about it, but believe it or not my males showed drive from day one with them. in other words 8 weeks on. and since i had my males before my female, i saw real early bloomers and they were DDR. so, go figure???

as i remember chaos is a crazy fool!!!!! lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!







i think once these late bloomers do bloom they are crazy loonatics!

debbie


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I usually hear the saying when males are involved or being worked..


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i am beginning to think it is "an ole wives tale" because every dog is such an individual. hopefully someone can "Splain" "as ricky ricardo says.









deb


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

When in doubt go to the horse. Talk to some longtime DDR breeders,like Spartanville,Linmac,Hena-C,etc. They know as much about growth and development of these dogs as we know of our own dogs. Being as they have raised many DDR litters, they would have firsthand information instead of speculation. I have owned DDR dogs in the past, but I'm not a pure DDR breeder so I'll take my own advice.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think out of the three mentioned Connie at SP. would be my pick to answer DDR questions., i may just do that







unless someone else can answer them here.









debbie


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Whichever one you contact or any of other DDR breeders, I think you will probably find the same answer from people who are the most knowledgable about DDR dogs.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

I had said earlier that my partially DDR male was slow to mature. He was very driven for toy/food when young, but seemed slow to catch on to obed training compared to my other dogs (of other breeds too, as well as GSD). I had asked the people I was training with at the time and they said well it's because he has a lot of DDR dogs in background... I didn't question it lol 

Now I know I was just making excuses and took it to mean there was something slow about him and not the training. I know better now







and think a lot of it was that it wasn't the right training for him when he was younger, not because of his lines, but because of who he is.

He did seem to fill out physically slower than my BYB west german type, Achielles. Other than that though... not sure.

Will be really interesting to hear from knowledgeable DDR people!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Grimm is Czech lines. He is 15 months old but, if you met him, you would notice instantly a very strong 'puppy vibe.' Many with GSDs say their dogs act crazy, etc.. this is totally different. He still wags his tail at a bug in the hallway or a bunny under a bush outdoors, still whimpers before laying down, and (he's a bold, slightly pushy fellow) still pins his ears way down before meeting a guest, rolling on the floor, 4 paws waving in the air, trying to kiss guests to death, and other puppyish things. He has a strong puppy vibe to him-- seems more like 7 - 8 months old. He is 27.5", but even strangers ask if he is "very young"-- even while he is heeling politely on lead.

As far as working drives, I feel like I won the lottery: All drives in evidence from the begining, plus, he even has retrieve drive! I asked the breeder for medium drives & medium energy level-- and that's exactly what I got (even though some of his siblings are real firecrackers).

Is this puppyish attitude thing lasting for Grimm due to the Eastern blood? Ideas?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I don't have a lot of experience with Czech lines, but I've known many high % DDR dogs. There was a pure DDR stud in the area for many years that got used a LOT by anyone and everyone, but I'm not basing my opinion just on him as there are also a couple other breeders in the area who focus on pure/high % DDR dogs, and quite a few of their dogs around. I do find them slow to mature, not physically but mentally. 

Many have been sleepers, showing not much more than pet temperament until 1-2 years old, and then suddenly waking up.
With drive, there often isn't much there when young and it takes a long time to come out.
The puppy "attention span of a gnat" phenomenon sticks around longer, and it can take these dogs longer to learn to concentrate, resist distraction, and focus on the task at hand. 
Overall just goofy, sunny, somewhat flighty personalities typical of young dogs. They take a while to develop seriousness, dignity, calmness, purpose and work ethic.
Many I've seen are quite handler soft as pups, and many don't grow out of that.
Suspicion and defense often develops earlier in these dogs, as opposed to western lines, so in that sense they can be quicker to mature. BUT, it also often comes about before the dog's have the mental maturity, confidence, and life experiences to know how to deal with those feelings, which can make them prone to overreaction. And that in turn can lead to some real squirrely behavior and reactions that might indicate weak nerves when young, but it evens out and the overreactions can go away once the dogs mature more.

Of course, this slow maturing isn't just DDR lines. Dogs from other lines can be slow to mature too. And some DDR dogs mature at quicker rates. Just speaking in generalities, but slowness to mature is more prevalent in the DDR lines than others.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Just like Patti we have a DDR brother to her Grimm. I laugh when his old owner said that he was extreme, due to her being use to german line Show dogs. I agree that these DDR boys and girls mature slowly. We had ordered 2 females from DDR lines and one was extreme and about 2 months later the 2nd female became extreme. Even our Ghost at a year old and even 2 yrs old was very in mature for a 2 yr old. I really like the DDR lines and are basing our kennel off these guys and gals.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chris,
That reply of yours was as good as any I've seen about DDR and general traits. I think your reply was balanced and accurate. Another person who has indepth knowledge of these lines is Chip Weiss. Good post Chris!!!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, Chris, i totally agree with your assessment of the DDR lines. i think you hit it right on the head!







good explaination, and probably as good as an explaination from a DDR breeder, etc.

debbie


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## spartshep (Feb 20, 2008)

As you know, I have been breeding these DDR dogs for over 8 years now and to be honest, Chris has answered this question as well as or better than I could have. Yes, they are slow to mature, both physically and in overall temperament and working ability. Asking why is difficult to answer...who knows why. Perhaps it is in the way they were bred long ago as to their role in the Communist Era with border control. Perhaps genetics plays a part and many believe that there were wolves incorporated, as well. Wolves alone may cause some of the aloof behavior that we sometimes see in the DDR dogs. For the most part, however, the DDR dogs are very well rounded in nerve and temperament...not crazy out of control man eaters and settle when the work is done. I appreciate their abilities in the work, but I must admit that they are especially pleasing to the eye


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

thanks Connie, if Chris hadn't done such a good job explaining, i would have asked you! but, now we have two excellent answers!

debbie


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Thanks Constance and Chris for your responses..

Can someone point me to a good read on the old DDR/East German dogs.. 

Since these dogs are so slow to mature, when did they start there training (back in the day) for border patrol? Was it normal to wait until the dog was 2 or older..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Just like West German dogs, you have to look at the bloodlines. 
Simply having a DDR reg number does not guarantee the dog will be "slow to mature" , as has been demonstrated here with the "exceptions" sited. You would also need to describe what "slow to mature" means to each individual. 
Having said that however, many of the more modern DDR bloodlines descend back to Rolf vom Osnabrücker Land, (often more than once), which could be a source of this "slow maturity" that people are referring to. You will find this dog MANY times in the modern show dog as well. My experience with dogs of this bloodline, ( and I am not referring to the show dogs, I am talking about dogs from this line with good nerves), is a dog that is a bit "harder to reach" or one that has a higher threshold. In other words, they needed a "reason" to do protection. They might not be a dog that would respond to todays' modern training techniques that requires this pronounced interest in prey items. Doesn't mean they can't be SchH dogs but you might have to expand your training knowledge to accomplish it. That is never a bad thing IMO, the more you learn about training , the more you understand the dogs. 
Many of the modern show dogs lack resiliency. IMO, the compounding of these bloodlines, ( Rolf), can be viewed as the number one culprit for this result. This is the softness that you hear many people refer to when they discuss the DDR dogs. Another bloodline found in the DDR line descends back to the Lierbergs, which also leads to Rolf. Just something to consider.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And dogs from the Lierbergs were suppose to be difficult "to touch" or "harder to reach" as Anne put it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Very interesting - some of the comments puts a new twist on the squirrely reactive behavior I remember seeing years ago and I have heard other mention elsewhere ............ maybe just a maturity thing with being able to handle the defense.


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