# Blue GSD



## bruce23 (Jun 8, 2010)

Look what I found on Craigslist. I just thought you guys would like to see this.Thats a nice looking dog but sounds to me like they are breeding for color. BLUE GSD PUPPIES


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I flagged it.


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hmmm... well pretty dog though.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Was a pretty pup.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Not only that, it's a breed fault.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Email them and ask who's backyard these dogs were bred in. Say you only buy if they were bred in the breeders backyard. See if they catch on.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Just for the sake of argument, what are they supposed to do with the blue puppies?
What if this is a "reputable" breeder who doesn't want to sell these "abominations" under their kennel name?
What if they're all being sold with spay and neuter contracts and some people might happen to want blue puppies? ...even though their preference is wrong.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Personally, I think the solid blues are gorgeous. I would never buy one from a breeder who intentionally bred for the fault colors but I wouldn't turn one down from a reputable breeder who just happened to have one in a litter.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

If a random blue pops up than no big deal. They should be sold with limited registration just like any other puppy.

If the entire litter is blue because this is what the breeder was going for (and that's how it sounds from the ad) than, well, they're probably poorly bred dogs. Sad to say, but it's the truth.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, Paul, I'm aware of that. We can only guess unless someone contacts them. For all we know, both dogs could have had recessive blue and the blue litter was a surprise. And just because the litter is blue still doesn't mean the parents are poorly bred. It may be a case of well bred and shouldn't have been bred together because of a recessive blue.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

I have to admit - I think they're cute little things but...it seems that pretty much all puppies can be cute. Part of me is curious to see the bloodlines but - I'm not going to email them...

===

Since I'm sure the ad is going to be flagged soon this is what it says:


BLUE GSD PUPPIES (Aledo)

Date: 2011-04-09, 11:25AM CDT
Reply to: [redacted]

They are HERE!! We have blue and gold and solid blue german shepherd pups. These are exceptional pups and are GORGEOUS! The dam is an import from England and the sire is an import from Ireland both parents can be seen. These pups are a prime example of the breed, they are bold confident and fearless. We have introduced them to all diff sounds and they have done great! They will come with 5 generation pedigree and are AKC reg. DONT MISS OUT ON THESE PUPS. They will go fast, $50 holds the pup, we have 4 boys and 3 girls. This is our first litter in the states. If you have any more info email me. The pic of one of our gold and tan females. Thanks!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Blues are gorgeous. But I would get them from a rescue, shelter or a reputable breeder who just happened to have one pop up in a litter.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> Yes, Paul, I'm aware of that. We can only guess unless someone contacts them. For all we know, both dogs could have had recessive blue and the blue litter was a surprise. And just because the litter is blue still doesn't mean the parents are poorly bred. * It may be a case of well bred and shouldn't have been bred together because of a recessive blue.*


Even if they're offering the pups to anyone with $50 on craigslist claiming it's their first litter?

I'm no expert on genetics, but is it possible for the entire litter to turn out blue if they weren't breeding specifically for it? I believe for blue to pop up, both parents have to have the recessive gene, but how does the entire litter turn out blue? Would both parents have to be blue themselves?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's a $50 deposit. I'm not a psychic. I have no idea what they are thinking or what kind of breeders they are. Nor am I a geneticist. I"m sure Lee, Chris or Carmen could answer the color question.


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## blues mamma (Apr 5, 2011)

OH HEY that was my post those are my german shepherds and yes both of my dogs are from VERY reputable breeders in europe. They were BOTH pop ups in a litter of black and tan parents not like it matters these dogs are not a fault and i refuse to think so my dogs and puppies are probably smarter and better than ur regular black and tans anyway, oh and to the guy who called me a backyard breeder*******this was our first and ONLY litter my dogs are anything BUT poorly bred. They have everything a black and tan have but their better looking! SO sick of ppl dissing blue GSD.


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## blues mamma (Apr 5, 2011)

Oh and the pups arent 50 dollars, Not that it matters they were all booked within hrs of being on craigslist.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

blues mamma said:


> OH HEY that was my post those are my german shepherds and yes both of my dogs are from VERY reputable breeders in europe. They were BOTH pop ups in a litter of black and tan parents not like it matters these dogs are not a fault and i refuse to think so my dogs and puppies are probably smarter and better than ur regular black and tans anyway, oh and to the guy who called me a backyard breeder ****** this was our first and ONLY litter my dogs are anything BUT poorly bred. They have everything a black and tan have but their better looking! SO sick of ppl dissing blue GSD.


First of all yes they are a fault look at the AKC Standard for GSDs, and I believe they are a fault for the German Standard. Also they will not be "smarter" because they are blue. All GSDs are the same just different temperaments, drives and color. The color does not effect temperaments, training ability or health.

Anyone purposely breeding for a color(fault or not) and nothing else is a BYB.

Please post your dogs pedigrees, people who are more in tune with pedigrees may see and discuss.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

blues momma, do you have their pedigrees? What color are the parents? I think the blues are gorgeous. You may want to try to sell them on the ebay (kiji)site for more exposure without getting flagged on CL. Welcome to the site, by the way and it is family friendly so telling the masses to ****** will get you a big censor...stick around, you may learn why everyone is so passionate about preserving the breed.
One other thing, what type homes are you looking to place your pups in when advertising them on CL?? Rehoming fee is all that is legal. You can't sell pups on CL. I hope you screen your potential buyers so the pups don't end up in shelters.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Doing a little research, I found this explanation of the genetics behind the blue genes and how they're passed on. Pretty good read.

General Simplified Color Genetic Information

According to this explanation, for a dog to pass on the blue pigmentation to all of it's offspring, it will have to have a double recessive (received from BOTH sire and dam) blue gene. If this happens and the dog is bred, the entire litter will be blue.

Just an assumption based on this read, but my guess is both the sire and dam of this litter are blues. If not, one of them is blue with the double recessive blue genes.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A neighbor had two littermates(both black) and they unfortunately hooked up on her second heat cycle. The vet suggested letting her go thru with the pregnancy. Three pups were born, two black and one blue. They placed the black ones with family members and kept the blue....said it was not mentally right, very slow.
Many breeders will cull the blues, so they aren't put back into the gene pool.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

they're adorable pups. I certainly wouldnt mind having a blue GSD but i'm not sure i'd seek them out. Knew a blue shepherd at the dog park back home. Sweet as could be and absolutely gorgeous. Like i said, wouldnt mind having a blue but not sure i'd seek one out.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

blues mamma said:


> oh and to the guy who called me a backyard breeder ****** this was our first and ONLY litter my dogs are anything BUT poorly bred. They have everything a black and tan have but their better looking! SO sick of ppl dissing blue GSD.


Could you post pedigrees of both dogs?

Also, why is it your first and ONLY litter. Did you want your dogs to experience the miracle of birth or is there another reason behind it?

Were the sire and dam OFA'd, hips and elbows? What were their scores?

Do the dogs have any titles?

As for the whole, they have everything that my black and tan has, you may be right, but I'd never breed my female in a million years. No way do I consider her breeding quality and I'm saying that about my own dog. She's a great pet, but no way is she going to do anything to improve this breed.

Please prove me wrong.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

blues mamma said:


> OH HEY that was my post those are my german shepherds and yes both of my dogs are from VERY reputable breeders in europe. They were BOTH pop ups in a litter of black and tan parents not like it matters these *dogs are not a fault *and i refuse to think so my dogs and puppies are probably smarter and better than ur regular black and tans anyway, oh and to the guy who called me a backyard breeder ******* this was our first and ONLY litter my dogs are anything BUT poorly bred. They have everything a black and tan have but their better looking! SO sick of ppl dissing blue GSD.


Yes, by the breeding standards for GSD's, blue and liver are considered faults. It doesn't make your dogs stupid or ugly, it is just simply a trait that falls outside of the standard. Being a blue dog also does not make it smarter than a black/tan, black, white (also a fault), sable, polka dot or purple.

I am surprised that the reputable breeders in Europe sold them in tact. We would love to see pictures of your dogs and people are always interested in pedigrees.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

blues mamma said:


> Oh and the pups arent 50 dollars, Not that it matters they were *all booked within hrs of being on craigslist.*


 Please make the people fill out applications with references and please screen them carefully. There are so many horror stories associated with selling dogs/puppies on craiglist.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

> these dogs are not a faultand *i refuse to think so*


I don't think she knows what you mean by "fault". 

And:


> SO sick of ppl dissing blue GSD


I don't recall anybody "dissing" blue GSD's. 

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for her to post their pedigrees.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

PLEASE when someone posts rude comments or something that will have to be edited could people NOT quote it over and over again. Maybe put **** there instead so that the mods don't have to edit several posts instead of just the original.

Thank you. Admin Lisa

***********


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

jax's mom how can you call a living pup an abomination just because it inherited a dilution factor and is a non standard colour .


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

carmspack said:


> jax's mom how can you call a living pup an abomination just because it inherited a dilution factor and is a non standard colour .


I don't think she does. She put it between " " because it is an hypothetical situation where an hypothetical breeder may consider them that way.


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## blues mamma (Apr 5, 2011)

I will most certainly post the pedigrees if someone will tell me how to put pictures up on here, in the meantime i still am in contact with both breeders i got them from. If you would like to go to their websites the dams is primsopups4home.co.uk or just type in pups4homes on google. and the sire is priderockkennels.co.uk. If pride rock kennels doesnt work the site has been under construction this past few days. The reason this is my one and only litter is a long story, these dogs are my family pets i have owned GSD my whole life my dad had one when i was born have loved them ever since. I have always had just the normal black and tan dont get me wrong they were great dogs but these my blue ones are just exceptional. My husband is in the military we used to live in england, when i first got my girl we went to look at them and i was originally going to get a black and tan female but i got their and saw her and she stole my heart, she followed me everywhere even out the front door and to my car. She hasnt changed much other than get bigger and she still follows me everywhere, one of the most loyal and courageous dogs i have ever owned i KNOW if someone were to come in our house with ill intent she would lay her life down for us. I could go on for days about her. The sire we actually saw him online and we were looking for a friend for her, so thts when we got him Blue was a yr old by the time we went and got Onyx, Onyx is everything tht Blue is but he has a softer side, He again one of the smartest dogs i have ever came into contact with, He has a habit of coming to the door with me and watching me open it when he was tall enough he knew right away how to open every single door in our house, even the knobs tht turn. When my Blue came into season a little while ago, I sent Onyx with our neighbor for the whole time, she had to put him in his kennel because he would open her door and i know he would run straight home (a 4 mile run). By the way we never have to put our dogs up for the night, so they dont really go into kennels. Well after sleeping in his kennel for a couple of days and watching her he figured out how to unlatch his kennel and get out! And of course he already had the front door down, oh and he can unlock doors too. So of course he ran home just like i thought he would and then of course Blue got pregnant so the reason i say this is or first and only litter is because of this reason. These are our family dogs i dont want to breed them, because i didnt get them for breeding, doesnt mean that they dont have the good quality to breed because they do. And all of our tht booked a pup we met them, and they had to fill out an application and even tht doenst even assure they get a pup me and my husband will be visiting their homes next week. So i dont just give my babies to anyone. I think tht about answers everything.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

interesting. neither site worked. 2nd site said it didnt exist. Red flag for me on the first breeder after i googled them was they breed GSDs and Yorkies. Personally i prefer a breeder who focuses on one breed but whatever floats your boat. posting pictures isnt complicated. there is a thread on it in another section you can look up. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/135328-how-post-pictures-site.html

when people say they want to see pedigrees, they dont just want to see pictures of the dogs. They want to know the lines behind them. Just FYI in case you didnt know.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

It being your first litter doesn't justify it. If you got "booked within a couple hours of being on craig'slist" then yes you're a backyard breeder. A reputable breeder would have to of known the purchasers well, and thoroughly "researched" and "dissected" the interested party. Even if it is a "oops" litter, it's not an excuse.Why would you not fix a dog if you didn't plan on breeding them?

If you don't fix a female before their first heat it raises the chances of mammary cancer. If your dog knew how to open then kennel, put a lock on it. 

Are you going to title either dog? Health test? And I don't mean taking the dog to the vet once a year, I mean OFA and penn hip.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

carmspack said:


> jax's mom how can you call a living pup an abomination just because it inherited a dilution factor and is a non standard colour .


Like Catu said, I was just quoting what a hypothetical breeder might consider them. 
I happen to like blue puppies in GSDs and Dobemans and don't see why they shouldn't be sold.


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## blues mamma (Apr 5, 2011)

You Obviously did not read my post at alllllllllllllllllllllll, why would i title them if they are family pets! Like i said I DIDNT PLAN ON BREEDING THEM!! And if you must know why i havent gotten them spayed my husband is military he just took a huge pay cut we just got back from england it costs us 5000 dollars just to ship our dogs back we could not afford it right now, not thats its any of ur business, AND u didnt read my post again i said they were booked meaning i held them from ppl me and my husband are doing home checks for each and every one of them, just because they are booked doesnt mean the ppl are getting them if i dont like them they will not recieve a puppy or if i feel like they have ill intent with them they will not get one. Im not going to sit here and defend my dogs any longer i know what they are and i have better things to do than sit here and argue with ppl, and again u didnt read my post i said my dogs dont go into kennels since they were puppies, it was his first couple of days in a kennel, how was i suppose to know he cld latch open a kennel door?? Would u think ur dog could do that??? I said he opens house doors. Anyway i have better things to do than sit here and try to prove my dogs. GOOD DAY


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

S.N.Y.P. Spay Neuter Your Pet 
Reduced Cost Clinics
Click the links for information on low cost spay and neuters.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The puppies are here and can't be put back. They are lovely.

But can a blue even BE registered? 

If there is a care about the breed, it would be honest to explain to people that, while the blues are lovely, it is considered a fault. Perhaps the best is to give the pedigree but sell without papers to prevent registration of future offspring will reduce the chances the pups are bred to make more puppies.

Please make sure the pups are 8 weeks old before they go to their new homes.

In the states we have a TERRIBLE problem with dogs being dumped in shelters. Surely you would want to know that your puppies and their puppies did not wind up that way

I think people assume you will keep breeding because this is your FIRST litter in the states. Had the ad said "oops" then you may not have received the same response. Had you not said the pups (with a disqualifying fault) were a prime example of the breed then maybe that would have also not taken you to task.

------

Question for the rescue folks. Is there anyway to run ads on CL and Kiji about the risks of buying a BYB GSD?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

blues mamma said:


> You Obviously did not read my post at alllllllllllllllllllllll, why would i title them if they are family pets! Like i said I DIDNT PLAN ON BREEDING THEM!! And if you must know why i havent gotten them spayed my husband is military he just took a huge pay cut we just got back from england it costs us 5000 dollars just to ship our dogs back we could not afford it right now, not thats its any of ur business, AND u didnt read my post again i said they were booked meaning i held them from ppl me and my husband are doing home checks for each and every one of them, just because they are booked doesnt mean the ppl are getting them if i dont like them they will not recieve a puppy or if i feel like they have ill intent with them they will not get one.


I'm impressed you have stayed here and continued to post. I think that's a good thing.

Just to give you a feel for what most of us are looking for when recommending a 'responsible' breeder, just take a look at http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html will give you a better idea of why people are saying what they are saying.

And if you got a chance to look at Urgent - German Shepherd Dog Forums and Non-Urgent GSD Rescue & Adoption - German Shepherd Dog Forums you'll get a better idea of the general member frustration with accidental and general BYB. Many of those dogs are now dead and I'm sure that was NEVER the 'intent' of the original people who owned the mother dog when they were puppies.

Reading Pedigrees of German Shepherd Dogs and here's a sample VA1 (I) Apoll vom Laacher-Haus - German shepherd dog


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Slow down people. We have been able to be polite before, we can now. (http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...king-breed-my-german-shepard.html#post2097027)

You don't like the wording of the add? You don't like the fact that there is an add in the first place? OK, I don't either, but people write a sort of things on add in order to get the best price, number of consumers, pup homes, whatever.

Not everybody want to spay their pet at the first heat cycle, it causes as many problems as it prevents, so please, don't shove that into people noses. If you feel it is the way to go, educate, but if you'd have looked down at me as you do with the OP because I am one of those that do not spay before 2,5 y/o (if at all) it would have only shown your ignorance regarding health and cultural differences.

I'll save my own opinions about if I believe this blue litter was accidental or not, given the number of blue GSDs running around (I'm yet to meet one in person, but around here people is less enthusiastic about "rare" colors, if one pops up, won't be registered, given to someone and most likely keep it in secret). BUT... I'll try to address it as if this were a oooops litter and be as helpful as I can.

C'mon people, I know you can...

ETA: To the OP, your post will be easier to read and people will get your point if you use paragraphs.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Catu said:


> Not everybody want to spay their pet at the first heat cycle, it causes as many problems as it prevents, so please, don't shove that into people noses. If you feel it is the way to go, educate, but if you'd have looked down at me as you do with the OP because I am one of those that do not spay before 2,5 y/o (if at all) it would have only shown your ignorance regarding health and cultural differences.


I second this. Spaying before 2 can have a negative affect on the orthopedic development.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

blues mamma said:


> You Obviously did not read my post at alllllllllllllllllllllll, why would i title them if they are family pets!


Lots and lots of people title their family pets. Rally, obedience, agility, Shutzhund, herding. . . all are great venues for training, having fun, and titling your family pets. If your Onyx is as smart as you say he is he could probably do very well in a number of venues.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Why are blues a fault?
Was it an arbitrary decision, is there a medical basis?
Do you know who carries the black dilution factor ?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

> Not everybody want to spay their pet at the first heat cycle, it causes as many problems as it prevents, so please, don't shove that into people noses.


Sorry if blunt is rude, no offense intended. Also, I've been told by a lot of veterinarians that it's neutering you should wait on because of health, not spaying. So, I don't care if you call me ignorant, but please at least educate me along with it.

And sorry if I mixed anything up. I'm dyslexic and it's extremely hard to read the poorly paragraphed responses. (Again, no offense intended.)


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

This is what I've been told.



> Spaying young is much more critical than neutering males...
> 
> If you spay before the first heat, the risk of mammary cancer (#1 cancer of intact females) decreases to essentially zero.
> 
> ...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

This could probably be a completely new and unrelated thread

I recall a huge discussion on a SAR board recently that had more evidence against ever spaying females or at least waiting 2-3 years. If you want to start a thread on it, I can go find the post on the topic.

Either way it is kind of moving this thread in a different direction.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

Now, I am not saying nobody should spay before maturity and everyone should wait 3 years, there other reasons that justify the procedure in most cases. 

What I don't like is the tone of "Why would you not fix a dog if you didn't plan on breeding them?" making it sound like if you do not spay you are automatically a bad owner. Maybe it wasn't your intention but it makes your other arguments, which may be valid regarding the current situation, lose strength.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Either way it is kind of moving this thread in a different direction.


This thread had a direction?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

LOL - guess it is wondering its own merry way.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

LOL @ Jax. 

I'm sorry if ""Why would you not fix a dog if you didn't plan on breeding them?" Offended it was not written in such a tone...That's the issue with online talking, it's kind of hard to infer someone's tone.  But no, I did not mean it in such a way. I wouldn't think that of an owner.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Carmen - some insights I have, albiet small

I do recall reading about medical problems with blues and livers a long time ago but do not believe that has ever been substantiated.

I have also heard (and Syrotouk perpetuated the myth at least in the first version of scent and the scenting dog**where he got pigment and color mixed up) that white dogs could not smell as good. --- now white dog could have good pigment but anyway I have heard any number of people say a GSD with good pigment had better scenting abilities............but...........then ............some of the spaniel people say a spaniel with a pink nose smells better.

Who knows where this stuff comes from?

** I dont have the 2nd version which would have been printed well after his death, but do have an original.

Anyway a possible explanation is in an article by Steve White (he popularized the SIAB method for training hard surface tracking) and ..... http://www.uspcak9.com/training/scent.pdf Now this article also has a large basis in Syrotouk but I do not think Syrotouk talked about the sustenticular (sp?) cells.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I have the book *"*Practical Guide for Sporting and Working Dogs" by Dr. _Dominique Grandjean_ DVM that say the same about pigmentation and scent ability, but it doesn't specify why.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am pretty sure that the scenting cells arise from the pigmented skin cells during development....but I have asked the question repeatedly over the years and have never seen ANY scientific evidence supporting that allegation.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The fact that blues and livers are so far and few between, so tracking titles on them would be few also? Too bad there isn't something to support the fact that they aren't genetically weaker.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> I am pretty sure that the scenting cells arise from the pigmented skin cells during development....but I have asked the question repeatedly over the years and have never seen ANY scientific evidence supporting that allegation.


Good to know. I've been about to ask in this forum several times. Now I won't waste my time :crazy:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Thank you Nancy for that. White dogs does not specify which breed. Could he be including spitz and northern breeds. 
I am going to delve in to this .

Part two of the question was which lines carry "blue".


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I cant find my old copy of syrotouk right now but I think he was definitely referring to white GSDs....and not northern breeds. 

But once again, I have seen NOTHING, NADA, to substantiate or refute that argument.

Another link perpetuating that conception
It's All In The Nose


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> But can a blue even BE registered?


As long as both parents are registered with the AKC the pups can be registered.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Whiteshepherds said:


> As long as both parents are registered with the AKC the pups can be registered.


If both parents are AKC registered, the pups can be oversized, undersized, floppy-eared, have only 1 leg and be allergic to air and the AKC will register them.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

carmspack said:


> Why are blues a fault?
> Was it an arbitrary decision, is there a medical basis?
> Do you know who carries the black dilution factor ?
> 
> ...


Blue coats are a serious but not disqualiyfing fault in the standard, but, dogs with noses that are not predominantly black are a disqualifying fault. The blues normally have grey noses. So between the dilution of color and the grey noses, the blues take a double hit. 

If there's a medical reason why they're dq'd it's hard to find or verify. There are very few registered each year. Same holds true for the livers.


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