# question about studding...



## frpringle

Hi.

I just purchased a german Shepherd from my friend's dad and he said that he had 2 people who wanted to breed with him. He is an import bred motherfrom Czech Republic, father from Germany. His father is a current working K-9 narcotics dog. Zeus (my dog) is a trained narcotics dog and has an amazing disposition. Since he is an import bred he does not have papers, according to what I was told. 

I do want to stud him but I want to make sure I am going about it the right way. I am seting up a vet appointment for him next week, just to go over everything with my vet. Can anyone give me a little insight as to what I should do/get done before I list him for studding? He is not my first GSD, but he is the first I am planning on studding. Thanks for the help!


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## Lucy Dog

OFA hips and elbows at an absolute minimum. You should also have him titled in something (preferably schutzhund) prior to breeding.

Take a look at this flow chart:


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## robinhuerta

Foreign bred dogs absolutely have "paperwork".....
Before you think of breeding your dog....you should locate his foreign pedigree.


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## Emoore

frpringle said:


> I just purchased a german Shepherd from my friend's dad and he said that he had 2 people who wanted to breed with him.


Pretty sure that's illegal in most states. 






Imports absolutely do come with papers. "Mother from Czech, father from Germany" isn't enough. You'll want to find his pedigree to figure out what the bloodlines look like, no family history of hip/elbow or other genetic issues, and to simply make sure you're not breeding him to a close relative, and you are breeding him to bitches of compatible bloodlines. In addition you'll want to get hip and elbow certifications.


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## wyominggrandma

oh oh......


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## frpringle

That's why I was checking. I thought that he should have something. I know Jeff said he already had his hips/elbows checked b/c he was training him to be his next working dog. I just e-mailed him and told him I needed the pedigree and any documents of tests that were one so I could get him registered and go about breeding him the proper way.


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## frpringle

Emoore said:


> Pretty sure that's illegal in most states.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imports absolutely do come with papers. "Mother from Czech, father from Germany" isn't enough. You'll want to find his pedigree to figure out what the bloodlines look like, no family history of hip/elbow or other genetic issues, and to simply make sure you're not breeding him to a close relative, and you are breeding him to bitches of compatible bloodlines. In addition you'll want to get hip and elbow certifications.




haha thats gross... Anyway, I was told he had already been tested because he was supposed to be working as the new K-9 unit, but he didn't have the drive. I just e-mailed the guy and asked for the paperwork and any records plus the pedigree so I could get him registered and make sure I was doing everything legit and not just breeding him with who ever. Thanks for the info and humor haha


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## msvette2u

Why do you want to stud him out?


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## NancyJ

So what would be the point of breeding a dog that did not have the drive to be working with a K9 unit? 

There are more than enough puppies coming from litters bred with parents who "meet the grade" who don't have the drive or temperament to work but make nice pets. Kind of like your dog.

There is absolutely no shortage of excellent working Czech, West German lined dogs in this country.

I would consider enjoying the dog and not facing the possible issues that come from breeding. (Infections, injury, etc.)


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## frpringle

msvette2u said:


> Why do you want to stud him out?





When I got him, I was told there are already 2 people lined up to breed their bitches with him, and Im fine with that, I just wanted to make sure that I don't just breed him to breed him. I want to make sure these people are registered and everything too. I just got him so I wanted to make sure that if I did breed him I was going about it the right way. I have a English Bulldog that is prepared and will be studded for the first time next month, but he was already all set up when we got him and so I'm a little lost as to what to do with an unregistered GSD that is supposed to be studded to 2 people.


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## msvette2u

You are not obligated to do it. As jocoyn said, there is no shortage of well-bred dogs (and imports) with the correct drive and temperament to use, not a wash-out from police academy.


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## Chance&Reno

frpringle said:


> When I got him, I was told there are already 2 people lined up to breed their bitches with him, and Im fine with that, I just wanted to make sure that I don't just breed him to breed him. I want to make sure these people are registered and everything too. I just got him so I wanted to make sure that if I did breed him I was going about it the right way. I have a English Bulldog that is prepared and will be studded for the first time next month, but he was already all set up when we got him and so I'm a little lost as to what to do with an unregistered GSD that is supposed to be studded to 2 people.


If you are NOT a professional, you shouldn't be breeding. Why do you want to breed this dog? Do you think you're going to make money off the puppies? What kind of "set up" does your bulldog have? Has he been health certified? They have lots of health issues and if you breed a dog with health issues, the puppies will inherit them. 

I don't understand why you want to breed your dogs? Do you hope to get a puppy out of it? Why can't you just let them be companion animals, because that's all they are? 

More unwanted puppies in the world that will end up in shelters because of behavioral or health issues. Is that what you really want?


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## msvette2u

Probably it's the $$$ sadly, there's a ton of money in EBs.
What has your EB done to prove he's breed worthy? Did you see the chart in the middle of the 1st page??


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## DJEtzel

I think everyone is being way too judgemental and harsh here. The OP is coming here looking for advice on how to breed correctly (and taking it!) and you're going to bash him for it and accuse him of things without having any idea? There are much better ways around such a topic than blatant interrogation that puts people on the defensive and drives them away.


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## frpringle

WOW... well thank you to the people who were helpful with their insights and gave good direction. To those who thought it was important to question my integrity when I am trying to make sure I am doing things legitimately, please remember this... you are the people who force others to breed "backyard" as they call it. Your comments are not helpful, yet frustrating. People on here are looking for advice, not a lecture about "leaving it to the pros". Those people had to start somewhere too. Why I want to breed my dog is my business and not for you to judge. IF I decide to breed either of my dogs, I will only be doing it the proper way, which is what I was looking for some insight on here for. I have no intention of breeding crap dogs, but I would like to know if mine is good for breeding. IF I go through the process, and find out my dog is a not quality for breeding then I do not have to breed him, that is fine. However if he is good quality and I can breed him, it would just be nice to know what all is required to stud him out so we have the option if that is what we decide to do. From now on, I will go directly to a local breeder for advice and not look on here for advice from people who probably are not qualified to give such advice. Thank again to those who were helpful. I do not need any further advice from this online forum.


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## frpringle

DJEtzel said:


> I think everyone is being way too judgemental and harsh here. The OP is coming here looking for advice on how to breed correctly (and taking it!) and you're going to bash him for it and accuse him of things without having any idea? There are much better ways around such a topic than blatant interrogation that puts people on the defensive and drives them away.




THANK YOU! I am not driven by the money, I do not need the money. I am simply wondering since I was told he was to be studded out already when I got him that I was doing things the right way and not just studding him to whoever. I wanted to make sure it was going to be a legit. I don't have to breed him, but if there was already an agreement made (which I know I can refuse since he is now my dog) that it was done correctly. I appreciate you post. There have been a few helpful posts, which I have already start following their advice, but for the most part it's been a lot of people who are negative and were not helpful at all.


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## GSDGunner

And there goes another! 

So sad to see someone come here for advice and get run off, yet again.


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## GSDGunner

By the way, if you do decide to stick around (and I hope you do), there is an "ignore" feature you can utilize. Anyone you don't want to hear from, simply put on ignore and you won't see their posts.


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## frpringle

GSDGunner said:


> By the way, if you do decide to stick around (and I hope you do), there is an "ignore" feature you can utilize. Anyone you don't want to hear from, simply put on ignore and you won't see their posts.




Thank you, I will be using that for sure! I was just looking for direction and advice, but I had a feeling people would act like that. I really appreciate it


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## martemchik

How old is your GSD? And who are the people asking for him to be their stud? That would be my first clue as to how "studable" he is. Usually the bitch's owners are the ones that end up with the duty to sell the pups, so if they think your dog is breedworthy, depending on their integrity, I would like to hear more about your dog.

From your first post there are some bad signs. All dogs, even imported ones have paper, so why the dam of your dog doesn't have papers is questionable. If he has been OFA tested, you should have some sort of documentation on that. It's really weird that 2 people want to breed to your dog since he doesn't have papers...AKC registration or any registration is the first thing most regular buyers look for in order to see how good the breeder is. I'm also pretty sure that most sports require a registration number to compete in.

Start digging to figure out what your dog actually comes from. Just being from import parents doesn't mean anything, there are tons of dogs from import parents, and its not hard to import a dog yourself for about the same price as a puppy purchased in the United States.


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## martemchik

Just wanted to add...I'm not saying your dog isn't breedworthy or that you are doing it wrong, just pointing out the questions I would have as a potential puppy buyer.


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## frpringle

martemchik said:


> How old is your GSD? And who are the people asking for him to be their stud? That would be my first clue as to how "studable" he is. Usually the bitch's owners are the ones that end up with the duty to sell the pups, so if they think your dog is breedworthy, depending on their integrity, I would like to hear more about your dog.
> 
> From your first post there are some bad signs. All dogs, even imported ones have paper, so why the dam of your dog doesn't have papers is questionable. If he has been OFA tested, you should have some sort of documentation on that. It's really weird that 2 people want to breed to your dog since he doesn't have papers...AKC registration or any registration is the first thing most regular buyers look for in order to see how good the breeder is. I'm also pretty sure that most sports require a registration number to compete in.
> 
> Start digging to figure out what your dog actually comes from. Just being from import parents doesn't mean anything, there are tons of dogs from import parents, and its not hard to import a dog yourself for about the same price as a puppy purchased in the United States.


I emailed the guy and he said both parents have papers, but he never got them for Zeus, so he is going to get the information to me. He said he never did the actual teasing, but took him to a breeder and had him evaluated. Both parents have a grade A in their testing. This was just emailed to me in the last 5 minutes. So I'm going to wait and get the paperwork on him before I look any further into it, that way I have the actual facts in front of me and I know what I'm looking at. Earlier when he told me he had him tested he didn't specify that he didn't do the actual health testing, but just an evaluation. I already have appointments set up with my vet for him so I will be taking him in very soon to get started on his health testing. Thanks for the advice! Oh and he is 18 months old.


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## DJEtzel

frpringle said:


> I emailed the guy and he said both parents have papers, but he never got them for Zeus, so he is going to get the information to me. He said he never did the actual teasing, but took him to a breeder and had him evaluated. Both parents have a grade A in their testing. This was just emailed to me in the last 5 minutes. So I'm going to wait and get the paperwork on him before I look any further into it, that way I have the actual facts in front of me and I know what I'm looking at. Earlier when he told me he had him tested he didn't specify that he didn't do the actual health testing, but just an evaluation. I already have appointments set up with my vet for him so I will be taking him in very soon to get started on his health testing. Thanks for the advice! Oh and he is 18 months old.


Just so you know, dogs must be 24 months (or two years) to have the appropriate breeding health tests done on them through OFA and I believe CERF as well.  So you can get started with registering him now, looking at lineage and pedigree, talking to your vet, etc. and then test him when he's old enough in amother 6 months.


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## martemchik

It might be a very long process to get his papers at this point. Especially if his litter was never registered. Also, testing is only after 2 years old. Getting an evaluation isn't bad, but it doesn't mean much. You can find a big problem with an evaluation at an early age, but you're not going to find a moderate issue. Again, OFA won't give you an official grade until the dog is 24 months old, but they will do a preliminary which won't mean much to potential puppy owners.

It's really weird that you had 2 females lined up to stud to your dog that early. I'm not going to say that he's not a great dog, but he's really too young to know anything about him. He probably is almost filled out but not quite, and he's not titled in anything as of yet.

This isn't anything against you, but mostly against the potential bitch owners. If I was ever asked to stud my dog by someone that I really respected in the breeding community I wouldn't think twice about it (they know what they're doing), but if its just anyone, I wouldn't do it. Sorry to be blunt but it doesn't sound like they care that much about the breeding pair. There are a lot of males out there that are probably much more breed worthy than your dog (and your dog is probably more breed worthy than mine, so don't take offense to that), so just from what you've described I wouldn't trust any of those owners, to me it sounds like they wan't money (I know you don't) and want to tell their buyers that the sire is a trained drug dog.


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## crackem

GSDGunner said:


> And there goes another!
> 
> So sad to see someone come here for advice and get run off, yet again.


 you're right, when someone comes looking for advice to on breeding a fine working animal, and they have a dog that was washed from a working program because of NOT having what it takes to be one, we should ignore that fact right?

I didn't see anyone jumping all over anyone, but a **** good question is WHY? if a dog doesn't have what it takes to pass a working program, WHY?? do you think it has what it takes to pass along to the next generation of working dogs?

It's a question that should be asked first and foremost. If a few comments on that fact are enough to drive someone away all I can say is good. They don't have the temperament for it.

a breeder should be asking themselves much tougher questions than any thing asked or commented on here.


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## Lucy Dog

OP... if you legitimately want to go about this the right way..

1. Post the dogs pedigree

2. Post the hip and elbow OFA scores and numbers (or SV score if from germany)

3. Post the pedigrees of the two dogs that you're considering breeding him with

There's a whole lot more to breeding a dog than just having "papers". There are so many AKC registered dogs who should never have been or be bred. Just having "papers" don't mean too much in this country. 

If you want to do this the right way. Start by posting the stuff I mentioned from above and let the experts here analyze. Don't take this wrong, but without that stuff, no one is going to even begin to take you seriously.


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## Chance&Reno

crackem said:


> you're right, when someone comes looking for advice to on breeding a fine working animal, and they have a dog that was washed from a working program because of NOT having what it takes to be one, we should ignore that fact right?
> 
> I didn't see anyone jumping all over anyone, but a **** good question is WHY? if a dog doesn't have what it takes to pass a working program, WHY?? do you think it has what it takes to pass along to the next generation of working dogs?
> 
> It's a question that should be asked first and foremost. If a few comments on that fact are enough to drive someone away all I can say is good. They don't have the temperament for it.
> 
> a breeder should be asking themselves much tougher questions than any thing asked or commented on here.


I am not trying to be judgemental or drive the OP off, I think I've asked legitimate questions. I'm sorry if the OP or others found that offensive, I just wanted to know WHY they think their dogs are worthy of breeding. I have the same convo with any of my students or clients who tell me they want to breed their dogs. As a professional, I do think I have the right to ask those questions as it can affect me in a professional manner. I see many dogs produced by unqualified breeders and unqualified owners. So it's just natural for me to try and stop any and all people who fit into these categories. In order to determine if you are one of those people, we have to ask questions. That is all my post was meant to do.

People are going to do what they want to do, and we can't stop that, but they shouldn't get offended if someone asks them hard questions. In my experience, when we ask these questions and the person gets offended, it's because they don't have the appropriate answers or even a clue about the answers.

If you are looking for answers, be prepared to answer some questions and not get offended by being asked questions. If your answers get you flamed, so be it. Be strong enough to defend your want to breed your dogs. I don't think anyone meant to offend the OP, especially me. This shouldn't be felt as a personal attack as that was not MY intention.

I've found that the best information and advice comes out because people have more information to work off of.


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## GSDGunner

crackem said:


> you're right, when someone comes looking for advice to on breeding a fine working animal, and they have a dog that was washed from a working program because of NOT having what it takes to be one, we should ignore that fact right?
> 
> I didn't see anyone jumping all over anyone, but a **** good question is WHY? if a dog doesn't have what it takes to pass a working program, WHY?? do you think it has what it takes to pass along to the next generation of working dogs?
> 
> It's a question that should be asked first and foremost. If a few comments on that fact are enough to drive someone away all I can say is good. They don't have the temperament for it.
> 
> a breeder should be asking themselves much tougher questions than any thing asked or commented on here.


And exactly what is the OP learning if he is met with hostility towards his intended breeding?
There are tactful ways to dissuade someone from breeding. People can be too judgmental, too fast. Some jumped on the "how dare you breed" bandwagon before all the facts were known. Even so much as questioning his motives ($$$). 
He came here to get advice. If it turns out his dog isn't breed worthy, then so be it, but the most you can do is educate.
Seriously, is that too much to ask?


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## Emoore

frpringle said:


> I emailed the guy and he said both parents have papers, but he never got them for Zeus, so he is going to get the information to me. He said he never did the actual teasing, but took him to a breeder and had him evaluated. Both parents have a grade A in their testing. This was just emailed to me in the last 5 minutes. So I'm going to wait and get the paperwork on him before I look any further into it, that way I have the actual facts in front of me and I know what I'm looking at. Earlier when he told me he had him tested he didn't specify that he didn't do the actual health testing, but just an evaluation. I already have appointments set up with my vet for him so I will be taking him in very soon to get started on his health testing. Thanks for the advice! Oh and he is 18 months old.


Also, make sure you're investigating the females as closely as we're advising you to check your male. You want a brucellosis (doggie STD) test from both male and female partners. You want to make sure the females have good bloodlines and hip/elbow OFA certifications at a minimum. Unfortunately there are people out there who want to breed their females to anything that resembles the same breed so they can sell puppies and make money. It sounds like you're wanting to avoid that and do it right. In German Shepherds, the only way to get close to doing it right is with hip and elbow certifications at a minimum, along with good bloodlines that complement each other.


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## Smithie86

The reason people are asking questions is they want to help you make an informed decision. If the dog washed out of a K9 program, he is 18 mos, no health clearances, no papers – that is why people are questioning. 

Why breed him? 

People will always ask to breed to a dog. But, you as a stud dog owner, need to look at not only what you are breeding to, but your own dog that you are breeding. 

For example: a dog that was bought for $500 and the breeder told the owners that the dog had genetic faults and was not for breeding. Nice working traits, but multiple genetics issues afflict the dog. Should he be used for stud and the foundation for a breeding program? There are just as nice dogs out there, with no genetic/reproducible faults.


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## Narny

GSDGunner said:


> And exactly what is the OP learning if he is met with hostility towards his intended breeding?
> There are tactful ways to dissuade someone from breeding. People can be too judgmental, too fast. Some jumped on the "how dare you breed" bandwagon before all the facts were known. Even so much as questioning his motives ($$$).
> He came here to get advice. If it turns out his dog isn't breed worthy, then so be it, but the most you can do is educate.
> Seriously, is that too much to ask?


Exactly!

I have not seen the OP being upset by us asking questions... they seem to REALLY want to know if this is a good idea or not. They have NO IDEA if this is whats right so they wants to know and ARE ASKING. Saying that if you arent a professional they shouldn't breed or saying that its money motivated (before any such evidence has been established) is just too harsh. 

The OP is right, you have to start somewhere and from what I can tell they have been completely open and honest about his situation and wanting information.

If you think something even if its negative you could ask, it is the money that motivates you? What is your experience with the dogs etc and wait to see the responses. Jumping to conclusions is just plain wrong.


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## GSDGunner

Narny said:


> I have not seen the OP being upset by us asking questions...


I beg to differ.  
|
V



frpringle said:


> WOW... well thank you to the people who were helpful with their insights and gave good direction. To those who thought it was important to question my integrity when I am trying to make sure I am doing things legitimately, please remember this... you are the people who force others to breed "backyard" as they call it. Your comments are not helpful, yet frustrating. People on here are looking for advice, not a lecture about "leaving it to the pros". Those people had to start somewhere too. Why I want to breed my dog is my business and not for you to judge. IF I decide to breed either of my dogs, I will only be doing it the proper way, which is what I was looking for some insight on here for. I have no intention of breeding crap dogs, but I would like to know if mine is good for breeding. IF I go through the process, and find out my dog is a not quality for breeding then I do not have to breed him, that is fine. However if he is good quality and I can breed him, it would just be nice to know what all is required to stud him out so we have the option if that is what we decide to do. From now on, I will go directly to a local breeder for advice and not look on here for advice from people who probably are not qualified to give such advice. Thank again to those who were helpful. I do not need any further advice from this online forum.


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## Narny

GSDGunner said:


> I beg to differ.
> |
> V



Ah yes, I read that... I think I figured most of that was because they felt jumped on. My mistake. I shouldnt assume either lol!


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## msvette2u

Quite frankly, it probably _isn't_ the best place to ask advice, for quite a few reasons.
This forum is not the be-all and end-all of what is going to happen (or not happen).

He needs to go find and hang around breeders and meet them in real life, _good_ breeders, not the kind who'd breed their bitch to an untested, untitled wash-out from the PD.

If I was seriously considering breeding any of my dogs, or becoming a breeder, the last place I'd ask advice is an internet forum. I'd naturally start w/a good breeder and mentor under them and attend every show and competition in my region, for starters.


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## selzer

Do a brucellosis test on him, and require it for any female that wants to breed to him. Brucelloses or Brucella is usually sexually transmitted. It will cause an abortion of any pups and sterility in both sire and dam.


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## frpringle

martemchik said:


> It's really weird that you had 2 females lined up to stud to your dog that early. I'm not going to say that he's not a great dog, but he's really too young to know anything about him. He probably is almost filled out but not quite, and he's not titled in anything as of yet.
> 
> This isn't anything against you, but mostly against the potential bitch owners. If I was ever asked to stud my dog by someone that I really respected in the breeding community I wouldn't think twice about it (they know what they're doing), but if its just anyone, I wouldn't do it. Sorry to be blunt but it doesn't sound like they care that much about the breeding pair. There are a lot of males out there that are probably much more breed worthy than your dog (and your dog is probably more breed worthy than mine, so don't take offense to that), so just from what you've described I wouldn't trust any of those owners, to me it sounds like they wan't money (I know you don't) and want to tell their buyers that the sire is a trained drug dog.



See that is exactly why I was asking about it b/c it didn't sound like it was a good set up from the get go. Especially for how much he said he was going to stud him for and that he wasn't registered etc. I e-mailed the man that I got him from and he is getting me the info on the pedigree and the rest of the documents that he has on him so I can see everything and work from there to see if it's a good idea or not. I was surprised when he said there were 2 females already lined up, so I assume he has bred with them in the past. This is all the stuff I want to find out ahead of time before I make a decision on what to do. I don't want to breed him just to breed him with whoever.


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## frpringle

Emoore said:


> Also, make sure you're investigating the females as closely as we're advising you to check your male. You want a brucellosis (doggie STD) test from both male and female partners. You want to make sure the females have good bloodlines and hip/elbow OFA certifications at a minimum. Unfortunately there are people out there who want to breed their females to anything that resembles the same breed so they can sell puppies and make money. It sounds like you're wanting to avoid that and do it right. In German Shepherds, the only way to get close to doing it right is with hip and elbow certifications at a minimum, along with good bloodlines that complement each other.


Thank you, I will make sure to have him tested if we do go forward with breeding in the future, and also make sure to require it before I breed him with the females. I don't want to do anything that will be harmful to him/or another dog. I appreciate the advice!


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## Lucy Dog

Make sure to post all the info from the paperwork you get. At the very least, you'll learn your dogs lineage which can be pretty cool.


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## frpringle

Narny said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I have not seen the OP being upset by us asking questions... they seem to REALLY want to know if this is a good idea or not. They have NO IDEA if this is whats right so they wants to know and ARE ASKING. Saying that if you arent a professional they shouldn't breed or saying that its money motivated (before any such evidence has been established) is just too harsh.
> 
> The OP is right, you have to start somewhere and from what I can tell they have been completely open and honest about his situation and wanting information.
> 
> If you think something even if its negative you could ask, it is the money that motivates you? What is your experience with the dogs etc and wait to see the responses. Jumping to conclusions is just plain wrong.


Yes, I was a bit offended b/c I felt like I was being attacked for trying to find out the correct information and the way to go about it. I appreciate the suggestions to others to be more helpful, because I would rather someone give me good advice and helpful suggestions so that I could see what I should/shouldn't do than to have someone sit me right off and say no. That is only more frustrating and unhelpful. I hope someone coming on this forum in the future will have a better welcoming than I did. I have already set up an appointment with a local breeder who has been breeding German Shepherds for many years and actually used to groom my last GSD for me, so I will continue looking to him for advice and guidance.


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## frpringle

Lucy Dog said:


> Make sure to post all the info from the paperwork you get. At the very least, you'll learn your dogs lineage which can be pretty cool.


Thank you I will


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## msvette2u

> I have already set up an appointment with a local breeder who has been breeding German Shepherds for many years and actually used to groom my last GSD for me, so I will continue looking to him for advice and guidance.


This is a great idea.
Since we haven't seen your dog's pedigree/papers (and neither have you in fact!) we can't make great or accurate suggestions, in all reality.
Maybe he's got excellent lines, etc. but the fact he didn't make the training cut at police work is significant.

BTW - I know it's no excuse for being rude, but we have a rescue and we are used to the fall-out (unwanted puppies, especially at the 8-10mo. range) when people decide to breed their dogs simply because they have reproductive organs. It doesn't sound like you fit that category although at first it was unclear (we should have asked more questions).


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## frpringle

msvette2u said:


> This is a great idea.
> Since we haven't seen your dog's pedigree/papers (and neither have you in fact!) we can't make great or accurate suggestions, in all reality.
> Maybe he's got excellent lines, etc. but the fact he didn't make the training cut at police work is significant.
> 
> BTW - I know it's no excuse for being rude, but we have a rescue and we are used to the fall-out (unwanted puppies, especially at the 8-10mo. range) when people decide to breed their dogs simply because they have reproductive organs. It doesn't sound like you fit that category although at first it was unclear (we should have asked more questions).


I was going to get him fixed right away and then the man told me about him already being promised to stud. Although it's completely in my rights to refuse to stud him, I thought it wouldn't hurt to at least look into the possibility and find out about it. My first GSD was actually a rescue. When I first got him, I didn't believe that he was purebred. It wasn't until I got him groomed that I could actually tell he was a GSD (even though they told me he was, lol). He was a long coat, and the people who he was taken from actually set him on fire. He made a full recovery and other then having a flair up in one of his legs on rare occasion, he was such a blessing for our family. Being a rescue I was a little hesitant if it would work, if he would show aggression from being abused, but he was absolutely wonderful with our children. I have looked at rescues over and over again and with a few breeders at dogs/puppies and I didn't find one that even came close to my Max's temperament/personality until I found Zeus. These dogs are a apart of my family and I don't take it lightly. I appreciate your kind words and I look forward to what Zeus brings to my family (even if it is simple companionship )


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## katieliz

can you tell me who the breeder is that you're going to for advice? and can you pm me the answer. i probably have information that would be helpful to you, but would like to take our conversation to the private message area. thanks.


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## msvette2u

> (even if it is simple companionship )


Ah, but this is the best


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## frpringle

msvette2u said:


> Ah, but this is the best


agreed. He is by my side 24/7 (except for when I'm in class or working of course. haha I don't think they'd let him in the OR.)


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## NancyJ

I honestly do think you should know something about the combinations and possible outcomes of a breeding and that is not being judgemental - I know for example, too much Grim z PS in a pedigree can cause soft ears/ bad hips. There are some combinaitons that should not be made etc etc. even if the stud is a stellar dog who has proven himself with a breed survey, schtuzhund titles or working certifications, and progeny on the ground.

Over time I have learned enough now to know that I do not know enough about what combinations work and what does not and have seen some locally produced puppies from basically good parents where the outcome was less than stellar. So I really respect those who put the work into it to produce the best possible puppies. Of course, if you are committed to a few breedings, so be it. My first point was that we are not "hurting" for a lack of working line dogs out there; what you have is probably nothing unusual.

I would read some of the threads on neutering or not. I would definitely wait until he is fully grown at 3 or so before I would neuter a dog, if then. (And I don't have any plans to breed, just think they are healther intact)


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## Liesje

Personally I think this is putting the cart before the horse. First of all, if you own the dog in full, you are not obligated to offer your dog for stud based on some previous agreements with the previous owner. Second, we know nothing about the dog, there doesn't seem to be any health testing done (and what we're talking about is not just going to the regular vet for a thorough exam, he needs to see radiologists for correct x-rays and have hips and elbows properly evaluated and certified, etc). Normally, those who breed and breed with integrity work their dog and do all this testing and THEN decided whether or not to breed the dog, not the other way around of contemplating breeding before any of this has begun. If I were you I would not worry about this. Just enjoy your dog. If you are genuinely interested in breeding in the future, then use this dog for a learning experience. Join a good club, start training, observe trials. 

I agree with Nancy, you don't need to neuter your dog but leaving him intact doesn't mean he's a stud either.

Also, if you cut corners (I know you are here to learn and doesn't sound like you'd be doing so intentionally....but still) think about the types of bitches people will be bringing to your dog for stud service....probably not very good quality ones. Probably not a good way to start making a name for yourself and your dog(s).

The reality is that good studs, even TOP studs like the BSZS winner or the WUSV winner are not that expensive and not that difficult to get access too, heck I've even seen some nice up-and-comers advertised for FREE. GSD studs are a dime a dozen. It's way more practical to enjoy your dog for what he is and *if* he turns out to be this one in a million dog, offer him for stud, then try to jump through all these hoops to have a stud dog that more than likely doesn't have a whole lot to offer (I'm not trying to be offensive, I also own two intact males so this is something I've gone through myself).


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## bocron

Also, it would be a good idea for you (OP) to learn about the breed in general. There are basically 3 main groups of GSD types out there (there are others, but the 3 I'm mentioning are the most known). There is the Working line (which is what you seem to have) the German Showline and the American Showline. The 3 types are still all GSDs of course, but are bred for different goals and/or looks. I'm over simplifying here, but trying to give you a quick run down. If the 2 females that are lined up to be bred to your male are from the other types, then you really need to question those who own the females. Do they have any idea why or why/not they would want to mix the lines? Like has been stated in other threads, it is done, but usually when a very experienced breeder is trying to introduce some trait into their lines.
Here is a page giving you an overall picture of the different GSD families, should get you started.
Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## Freestep

Everyone else has said it well. I am sure your dog is a fantastic companion and a really nice dog. However, I agree that a dog that washed out of police work, with no pedigree, no title, and no OFA report will only attract less-than-stellar quality people with less-than-stellar bitches. When breeding GSDs (or any breed), you want to breed only the best to the best; in addition, there are certain combinations you DON'T want to make, even if both male and female are stellar. For example, doubling up on certain bloodlines can cause severe aggression issues, even if both the male and female have good temperament. Doubling up on some bloodlines can produce bad hips, hemophilia, poor temperament, DM, yada yada yada. It seems like breeding dogs ought to be the simpliest thing in the world, but doing it the right way is more complicated than you can imagine. It really does take an expert who understands genetics and GSD bloodlines to look at both pedigrees; only an expert will know whether it is truly a good match that will benefit the breed and the humans that own them. Otherwise, it's a crapshoot known as "backyard breeding", and is the reason why there are so many unhealthy GSDs with poor temperament around today. 

I see that you really want to do right by the breed, and your dog. Thank you!! We get so many yahoos that come in here and think they want to breed dogs, having no care or concern for anything they produce except $$$. If you were treated rudely in the beginning of the thread, that is why--we mistook you for a yahoo. People here care passionately about the breed, and hate to see it destroyed by people who have no clue what they are doing. Backyard breeding is bad enough in a small breed like a Chihuahua, but a large, powerful, potentially aggressive breed such as a GSD, it can be disasterous. Take a look at the forum and see all the threads about inappropriate aggression, fearfulness, behavior issues, health issues, people getting bitten, etc. 

Anyway, it seems you already understand that, so I won't continue on that soapbox.

Before you even think about offering your boy for stud, as the others mentioned, you need to first wait until he is two years of age so that he can get his hips and elbows x-rayed for OFA. If the OFA comes back good, great! There are a host of other health screenings you'll need to do as well; DM, CERF, etc. Once he clears all that, you'll have to think about titles. Now, he's a police dog washout, which is a red flag, but it doesn't necessariy mean he can't do SchH, or AKC obedience, herding, tracking, etc. This will take time, and during the training process, things about his temperament may come to light that will give you more information about why he washed out of police work. Not enough drive? Nerves not stable? Not courageous enough? etc. If he can in fact acheive a title, it means he may still have something to offer, but the female he's matched to will need to make up for what he lacks.

Now, let's say he's passed his OFA and health checks and gotten his SchH, obedience, or whatever title. At that point, here's what I would do if the owners of the females haven't disappeared, gotten tired of waiting and bred to some other mediocre stud that doesn't have any bothersome requirements, and are still interested in breeding to your boy: Ask for their females' pedigrees and their OFA report. If they say "she aint got none o' that", or "What's an OFA?" you know you are dealing with less-than-stellar people who probably have less-than-stellar, backyard-bred dogs. Keep that in mind. Politely tell them that without at least a pedigree and an OFA report, you cannot even consider their females. Once they learn that they'll be out several hundred dollars to get hip and elbow x-rays, you probably won't hear from them again. 

If, for the sake of argument, they come up with the pedigree and OFA papers, post them here and have us look at them. I bet you 10 to 1 that the pedigree will be mediocre, or at least, an unsuitable match for your boy. Then you politely tell them it isn't a good match, and for the good of the breed and your own reputation, you'll have to decline.

For the sake of argument, let's say the pedigree is awesome, the bitch herself is awesome, and the match is determined to be a good one. Great! The next step is for the bitch to attain a title. In Germany, SchH1 is the minimum requirement for breeding. Here in America, there are many different types of working titles aside from Schutzhund; AKC obedience, herding, tracking, even agility and rally is at least something that shows the dog can be taken out in public, obey, and perform.

Okay, now, lets say all our ducks are in a row; pedigree, health testing, title, everything is in order. Both dog and bitch need a brucellosis test immediately prior to the breeding. If that comes up clear, then I'd say you *might* be good to go for breeding.

I say "might" because there are a hundred things that could go wrong in the whole process; the bitch may not accept your dog for breeding, the breeding may not take, you may find out something about the bitch or the owner that you don't like, or in fact you may find out something about your own dog you don't like! You can back out of a breeding agreement at any time. It might make the owner of the female mad or sad or frustrated, but hey, stuff happens.

See, it's pretty complicated. Too complicated for me; I thought I wanted to be a breeder until I found out everything that's involved doing it the right way. I decided to leave it up to the experts, as I don't have the temperament for it.


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## msvette2u

> think about the types of bitches people will be bringing to your dog for stud service....probably not very good quality ones.


This is an excellent point, people don't usually pick untested/untitled dogs who washed out of academy to breed their bitches to. 

If you own a top-of-the-line female, and wanted to breed her, would you pick a dog with no papers, no titles, nothing, or a well-known, titles up the ying-yang champion stud?


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## martemchik

I have to agree with the others, the first sign to me that your dog shouldn't be studded quite yet wasn't you or your dog, it was the people asking for his services. The fact that he's a wash-out doesn't mean much, he might still have more drive than your average dog, just not enough for police work. But its the people asking to have a puppy be their stud. They're the kinds of people that base the breeding on the looks of the two dogs.

If you purchased him that early from another person and he already had people lined up, how did they even know what his temperament would be like at that age. It takes 3 to 4 years for a male GSD to fully mature and finally settle into their personality. There are just so many questions about a GSD at that age that its ridiculous for anyone with any knowledge of breeding to already be asking for a stud. Even breeders who hold back puppies for future studs don't know if that dog is going to turn out until they are almost 2 years old.


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