# Steel Cross



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

What do you guys think and know about Steel Cross?

Steel Cross German Shepherd Dogs

“No good dog can be a bad colour”
- Capt. Max von Stephanitz, considered to be the father of the German Shepherd Dog breed, and president of the Verein fur deutsche Schaferhunde 1923.


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

I have not heard of them, but that doesn't mean much. I can't find anything on their website about their breeding dogs, and that makes me suspicious. Am I missing that information somewhere? 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

They appear to be breeding for color. Halfway down their puppies for sale page, there is a link to a different kennel to contact for puppy sales. You'll find the breeding dogs there.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

von Stephanitz quote

“No good dog can be a bad colour”
- Capt. Max von Stephanitz, 

sure but FIRST the dog has to be a GOOD dog and the criteria for this are demanding .

not superficial or cosmetic 

steel cross ? colour niche breeder . .

if you really want to learn look to Malcom Willis , Nem and Percy Elliot, Linda Shaw 

you'll have to invest some money and lots of time .


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

> sure but FIRST the dog has to be a GOOD dog and the criteria for this are demanding .


No disrespect, but isn't that obvious? What does that have to do with this or even my dog? I knew that all along you sound like you're telling me like I don't know. I've been saying I'm not trying to breed for color, that was just something that is making me question its purity, I've said it time and time again, I am here to find out if my dog is breeding worthy, not based on her coat. I have come to find out how to breed the proper way, with the criteria required to be a good bloodline.

I'm looking at my dog's pedigree now, Sunsilver is helping me, he says my dog has Lord in the ancestry, so I think I'm off to a good start.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Winnal said:


> No disrespect, but isn't that obvious? What does that have to do with this or even my dog? I knew that all along you sound like you're telling me like I don't know. I've been saying I'm not trying to breed for color, that was just something that is making me question its purity, I've said it time and time again, I am here to find out if my dog is breeding worthy, not based on her coat. I have come to find out how to breed the proper way, with the criteria required to be a good bloodline.
> 
> I'm looking at my dog's pedigree now, Sunsilver is helping me, he says my dog has Lord in the ancestry, so I think I'm off to a good start.


to question number one -- everything
to questin number two you don't know 

you're putting great "rare" TV star value on colour - capitalize 

sunsilver is a lovely lady (or at least she was when we met ! lol


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

carmspack said:


> to question number one -- everything
> to questin number two you don't know
> 
> you're putting great "rare" TV star value on colour - capitalize
> ...


Sorry I meant her I never asked...

Because people were telling me that she had a coat like the one on TV so she could be pure, someone even told me that if people said my dog is a mix I can tell them to look up the show. So at the time I posted that I made a mistake in saying it's 'rare' like it was the main reason I wanted to breed her, that's not the case at all. From the start, before even seeing/caring about her coat (didn't even know it meant she could be mixed), I could tell her vibrancy and energy and also being the largest in the litter and the largest ears, it has nothing to do with her only coat.

Turns out I wasn't wrong... she has Lord in her ancestry, one of the top working line dog breeder from what I was told by Sunsilver.

You answered *the rhetorical questions, but once again, for the at least the 5th time, ignored the rest of me explaining how I am not just considering her coat, then proceed to put words into my mouth by exampling that I talked about her 'rare' coat as my ONLY consideration to breeding when I said that's not the only one, that was just to start off by verifying her purity (which you still doubt)**, I've always been interested in her traits and bloodline as well... but obviously you can't just look at the dog to see that. Please be reasonable.*

From what people said about you, you're a nice breeder lady, yet you are relentlessly bashing me over the idea that I am only breeding for coat color and nothing else when *I repeatedly said that was just for proof of her purity (that the dogs on the show was pure, so mine could be too)*.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What was ridiculous about Carmspak's post?


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What was ridiculous about Carmspak's post?


Everything I wrote before.


> You answered *the rhetorical questions, but once again, for the at least the 5th time, ignored the rest of me explaining how I am not just considering her coat, then proceed to put words into my mouth by exampling that I talked about her 'rare' coat as my ONLY consideration to breeding when I said that's not the only one, that was just to start off by verifying her purity (which you still doubt), I've always been interested in her traits and bloodline as well... but obviously you can't just look at the dog to see that.*


Changed from "don't be ridiculous" to "please be reasonable".


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

[sigh] Yes, I'm female. The dam is very heavily line bred on Lord and Timo.

Still waiting to see the rest of the pedigree before I comment.

If the dam is from Steel Cross, well at least the rest of her pedigree is pretty darn good! All very solid working lines, except for one line that goes to white shepherds.

Carmen, have a question for you. Were the Hobo dogs black and sliver, or were they silver sables? I can't really tell from the photos I have. The original dog (London) looks to be a patterned sable, but I only have black and white photos of him from Eisenman's book. (Like you, I have all of his books. And London was quite the badass, if you remember the story of him backing an umpire off the field after he waved his fist in Chuck's face!)

And what colour is Winnal's dog - other than having the Hobo type markings?


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> [sigh] Yes, I'm female. The dam is very heavily line bred on Lord and Timo.
> 
> Still waiting to see the rest of the pedigree before I comment.
> 
> ...


I had a feeling, I'm sorry I put he I wasn't even trying to use any gender identifiers I did it on accident. Of course you pointed out carms is a girl to me, and she pointed out you are as well. My bad...

The dam isn't from Steel Cross I don't have any reason to believe, I only came across them just Googling images that looked like my dog (my dog's dam).


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm pretty much sitting back and being amused by the defensiveness, back pedaling and excuses. I looked at the website, and it's obvious that you chose it due to coat color, why else of all the breeders out there would this be the one you post about? The emphasis in the website is for colors that are non-conforming to the breed standard. Stop worrying about your dog's coat and do something productive with her if you think you'll breed her someday. I don't with my girls but they are here to be my companions, to walk,camp, and hike.


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

ksotto333 said:


> I'm pretty much sitting back and being amused by the defensiveness, back pedaling and excuses. I looked at the website, and it's obvious that you chose it due to coat color, why else of all the breeders out there would this be the one you post about? The emphasis in the website is for colors that are non-conforming to the breed standard. Stop worrying about your dog's coat and do something productive with her if you think you'll breed her someday. I don't with my girls but they are here to be my companions, to walk,camp, and hike.


Now you're just accusing me. What is this an investigation?

Obviously utterly false, *I found my dog by pure chance* I was not considering (*in fact I questioned her purity just like you all did*) the coat AT ALL when I got her as a puppy, *the breeder told me she was pure* (obviously, with AKC) and *that was all I cared about as well as her being the biggest in the litter and most active*, I had no clue that when she grew up *she would look nothing like her father, and also have extremely distinct markings that weren't present when she was a puppy*. Then people began *questioning her purity, so that prompted me to try and verify her purity, at which some point some people told me to use the TV show as an example to "prove" without DNA, that she COULD be pure.

I literally took the ADVICE of somebody I won't mention, to say that my dog is pure because of the dogs from that TV show.*

Too hard to follow? Yeah, probably, just stick to accusing me of only caring about coat, keep shoving words into my mouth and say that that's what I said and want.

Call me a liar all you want. I'm still here to find out how to be a good breeder and what genetic/traits/titles/bloodlines/health certifications are necessary.

*I'm not worried about her coat, but rather her purity, which is to do with her bloodline, which is guess what? What you need to know to know if the dog is breed worthy.

What you guys are missing with this post about Steel Cross, is not that they are breeding for 'color', but rather, they are breeding good dogs regardless of color, and they are also supposed to be pure, which indicates that my dog has the potential (along with proof within her pedigree) that she is indeed pure. That's the whole point.
*


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Winnal said:


> I had a feeling, I'm sorry I put he I wasn't even trying to use any gender identifiers I did it on accident. Of course you pointed out carms is a girl to me, and she pointed out you are as well. My bad...
> 
> The dam isn't from Steel Cross I don't have any reason to believe, I only came across them just Googling images that looked like my dog (my dog's dam).


hey , I will give you one thing --- you are tenacious 
you don't sit around waiting to be spoonfed

you've dived deep into the forum posts of the past 

hope you use this force for good and not e v i l . (austin power's dr. evil laugh)


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

If this is the dogs pedigree then winnal just post the pedigree and save yourself a lot of unnecessary typing. I really hope your dog is legit. But, until you post a pedigree and show a willingness to prove your dogs worth. Titling your dog not trying to breed just because it has a couple good ancestors. No one is gonna tell you to breed her. And no quality stud will be offered.


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Winnal said:


> Obviously utterly false, *I found my dog by pure chance* I was not consider the coat AT ALL when I got her as a puppy, the breeder told me she was pure and that was all I cared about as well as her being the biggest in the litter and most active.
> 
> Now you're just accusing me. What is this an investigation?
> 
> Call me a liar all you want. I'm still here to find out how to be a good breeder and what genetic/traits/titles/bloodlines/health certifications are necessary.


So Silver Cross is where your dog is from? I apologize I missed that note, I thought you asked for opinions about that breeder. My youngest was also the biggest by far of her litter, not why the breeder matched her to us though. And she's definitely smaller than her full sister that is 3 years older. Not sure why picking the biggest puppy is a valid reason for choosing a pup.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

they were sable .

London badass?


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

*I'm not worried about her coat, but rather her purity, which is to do with her bloodline, which is guess what? What you need to know to know if the dog is breed worthy.

What you guys are missing with this post about Steel Cross, is not that they are breeding for 'color', but rather, they are breeding good dogs regardless of color, and they are also supposed to be pure, which indicates that my dog has the potential (along with proof within her pedigree) that she is indeed pure. That's the whole point.
*


cdwoodcox said:


> If this is the dogs pedigree then winnal just post the pedigree and save yourself a lot of unnecessary typing. I really hope your dog is legit. But, until you post a pedigree and show a willingness to prove your dogs worth. Titling your dog not trying to breed just because it has a couple good ancestors. No one is gonna tell you to breed her. And no quality stud will be offered.


I want to title her and get her tested, and all the things to make sure she is breeding worthy... I've said this. Ancestors are obviously going to offer genetic chances of being able to get titles, shouldn't a good breeder know this?


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

ksotto333 said:


> So Silver Cross is where your dog is from? I apologize I missed that note, I thought you asked for opinions about that breeder. My youngest was also the biggest by far of her litter, not why the breeder matched her to us though. And she's definitely smaller than her full sister that is 3 years older. Not sure why picking the biggest puppy is a valid reason for choosing a pup.


No I got my dog from a breeder locally, by pure luck and chance...

I'm only asking about Steel Cross because they have "pure GSDs" that have coat like mine, so it just adds to the validity that my dog COULD be pure, and that's all I'm talking about.

Never said I couldn't be wrong about it, just instinctively, bigger pups got more nourishment potentially, also the order in which the litter was born, the last born sometimes die.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They have a liver bitch in whelp. They say they breed to the standard, but liver dogs have a nose not predominately black, and she does, so that is a disqualifying fault. 

They are breeding to the standard but breeding disqualifying faults -- that does not compute. 

They seem more interested in color than anything else. 

BTW, Capt. Max von Stephanitz did indeed begin the breed in the late 1800s, he created the standard, created the requirements for being breedworthy, created the SV (GSD kennel club in Germany), when he recognized that his breed would not survive as soley a sheep-herding dog, he honed their skills and tried to sell them for either police work or military work, and was turned down, went the other way with much success and then the other services came on board. He also began the sport of Schutzhund (now IPO) to test his dogs. 

By 1914, only something like 16 years since Stephanitz began the breed the dogs were used in the German military and that is when dogs started coming home with American soldiers. Rin-Tin-Tin was one of these. 

Stephanitz remained head of the SV until Hitler was in power in the 1930s. He wrote a book and I'd recommend reading it to anyone who wants to know the breed and understand what it takes to build a breed of dogs into what it is today. Loaded with information, but you have to kind of understand that some of what he says about culling and such is barbaric. 

He did say a good dog cannot be a bad color. But he also made the requirement for the nose to be predominately black to eliminate blues and livers and whites. He was not a fan of weak, washed out colors.


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

selzer said:


> They have a liver bitch in whelp. They say they breed to the standard, but liver dogs have a nose not predominately black, and she does, so that is a disqualifying fault.
> 
> They are breeding to the standard but breeding disqualifying faults -- that does not compute.
> 
> ...


A fault just for conformation though? You can still do other titling like agility, police dog, tracking right?

If he said a good dog cannot be a bad color, then isn't it contradicting himself to say he is not a fan of weak, washed out colors? Can you please cite the source of that quote coming out of his mouth?

Ok, so they turned out to care about color a lot (but you can argue, they don't care about the standard color, just pure/good genetics), that has nothing to do with my point though, which is just that if they have dogs that color and are "pure" then mine could be as well. I'm not trying to give them any merit or anything for their breeding ability or anything.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Winnal said:


> *I'm not worried about her coat, but rather her purity, which is to do with her bloodline, which is guess what? What you need to know to know if the dog is breed worthy.
> 
> What you guys are missing with this post about Steel Cross, is not that they are breeding for 'color', but rather, they are breeding good dogs regardless of color, and they are also supposed to be pure, which indicates that my dog has the potential (along with proof within her pedigree) that she is indeed pure. That's the whole point.
> *
> I want to title her and get her tested, and all the things to make sure she is breeding worthy... I've said this. Ancestors are obviously going to offer genetic chances of being able to get titles, shouldn't a good breeder know this?


I haven't read every one of your posts so if you have said something and I didn't see it I apologize. Yes, a good breeder would be able to look at your dogs pedigree and tell you what she would probably offer as far as Genetics and breeding. But, just because the ancestors have it doesn't mean she will. This is where you Titling her and getting health tests on her becomes important. 
This is also why if I were you I would post her pedigree for some of the experienced people on here to look at and offer their opinions to you. 
Good looking dog BTW.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Winnal said:


> *I'm not worried about her coat, but rather her purity, which is to do with her bloodline, which is guess what? What you need to know to know if the dog is breed worthy.
> 
> What you guys are missing with this post about Steel Cross, is not that they are breeding for 'color', but rather, they are breeding good dogs regardless of color, and they are also supposed to be pure, which indicates that my dog has the potential (along with proof within her pedigree) that she is indeed pure. That's the whole point.
> *
> I want to title her and get her tested, and all the things to make sure she is breeding worthy... I've said this. Ancestors are obviously going to offer genetic chances of being able to get titles, shouldn't a good breeder know this?


So....Why don't you get a hold of steel cross and talk to them. You obviously are not communicating well enough for any of us to help you. 
They obviously have amazing dogs that produce amazing off spring. 
Curious, what titles do they have on their dogs? If they are paying no mind to the breed standard for colors so they can breed to the best working dogs, surely they'd be willing to share what their offsprings have accomplished?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Winnal said:


> A fault just for conformation though? You can still do other titling like agility, police dog, tracking right?
> 
> If he said a good dog cannot be a bad color, then isn't it contradicting himself to say he is not a fan of weak, washed out colors? Can you please cite the source of that quote coming out of his mouth?


Yes, you can do all of that with them, but they should not be bred. A dog disqualified for a conformation fault should not be used to maintain/preserve the breed -- they should not be bred.


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> I haven't read every one of your posts so if you have said something and I didn't see it I apologize. Yes, a good breeder would be able to look at your dogs pedigree and tell you what she would probably offer as far as Genetics and breeding. But, just because the ancestors have it doesn't mean she will. This is where you Titling her and getting health tests on her becomes important.
> This is also why if I were you I would post her pedigree for some of the experienced people on here to look at and offer their opinions to you.
> Good looking dog BTW.


And I 100% understand this. Thanks. I look forward to finding out! :wink2:


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

selzer said:


> Yes, you can do all of that with them, but they should not be bred. A dog disqualified for a conformation fault should not be used to maintain/preserve the breed -- they should not be bred.


Ok, if you ever end up stopping Steel Cross with what they're doing because they 'should not be breeding', then come tell me and maybe I'll decide not to breed my one dog. I guess there's just no compromise here. You are a die-hard black and brown GSD breeder, I dig.

And even if I don't end up breeding her, yes I do still want to get her titles and working because she is a working line. And that is the key to me, I believe it's still worthy for my dog to breed as a working-line dog... That's why sables exist if I'm not completely wrong (except for not being 'washed out' colored)...

And just because my dog has a different color than the standard, many of her ancestors do, and I bet other standard coat dogs could have some ancestors with white or other coat colors, unless you're saying their/your bloodline is 100% black and brown/not washed-out and anyone with any ancestors in their bloodline that is not black and brown/washed-out should not be bred.


cloudpump said:


> So....Why don't you get a hold of steel cross and talk to them. You obviously are not communicating well enough for any of us to help you.
> They obviously have amazing dogs that produce amazing off spring.
> Curious, what titles do they have on their dogs? If they are paying no mind to the breed standard for colors so they can breed to the best working dogs, surely they'd be willing to share what their offsprings have accomplished?


Idk, maybe I'm asking the forum those questions? I don't know them at all, I came across them off Google searching trying to find purebred dogs with the same coat as mine and that's who I came across.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Winnal said:


> A fault just for conformation though? You can still do other titling like agility, police dog, tracking right?
> 
> If he said a good dog cannot be a bad color, then isn't it contradicting himself to say he is not a fan of weak, washed out colors? Can you please cite the source of that quote coming out of his mouth?
> 
> Ok, so they turned out to care about color a lot (but you can argue, they don't care about the standard color, just pure/good genetics), that has nothing to do with my point though, which is just that if they have dogs that color and are "pure" then mine could be as well. I'm not trying to give them any merit or anything for their breeding ability or anything.


Actually, I think most people said your dog _might_ be purebred, and I don't think anyone said your dog's color was a disqualifying fault. But your wall is so high that you aren't able to hear us. 

Someone said a reverse mask is a fault, but it is not on the list of disqualifying faults. So, if a dog has a lot to offer, that is not a reason in itself to not breed. 

The liver color, the blue color, and the white color are all disqualifying faults, liver and blue because the nose will be brown or grey, and white dogs because they are white.

White is contested, as it was thought that the white carried a gene for deafness as some do in other breeds. I understand that is not true. I think that may have been the reason they were disqualified or because it was believed that the dog would not be able to perform its work as well in sheep-herding or military with a white coat. Other dogs herd or guard flocks that are white or at least light in color. But I can understand it from a military sense, as a black and tan do would blend in, especially at night and be harder to target than a white dog, unless you were stationed in the polar regions. Personally, if someone loves the white dogs, and jumps through other hoops, possibly shows them in UKC, where they can, so that there conformation has limits, then I think they can still be reputable breeders. But breeding for liver and blue colors and any off-colors like panda, well, that shouldn't be the focus of your breeding program. Because color is not utilitarian, really, it is more about aesthetics. 

But people now like to have something rare or unique, and for that reason unscrupulous breeders will put dogs together to meet a market, regardless to other factors. I even have a bit of an issue with breeders who breed for black dogs. To successfully produce blacks, people want pedigrees with 4-6 generations of black dogs -- that has to limit the gene pool. I am skeptical about whether this is really a good idea and whether dogs suffer for it.


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

selzer said:


> Actually, I think most people said your dog _might_ be purebred, and I don't think anyone said your dog's color was a disqualifying fault. But your wall is so high that you aren't able to hear us.
> 
> Someone said a reverse mask is a fault, but it is not on the list of disqualifying faults. So, if a dog has a lot to offer, that is not a reason in itself to not breed.
> 
> ...


Really? Maybe I'm going mad then? Cus in my mind I keep reading, your dog is washed-out. ??

Give me a break, I don't have a Trump wall. I felt attacked for saying my dog has a 'rare' coat and people kept saying I was breeding for coat when I wasn't. That's the only wall I built.


----------



## melissajancie (Dec 22, 2016)

Just wondering how long it will take for this thread to get locked opcorn:


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

melissajancie said:


> Just wondering how long it will take for this thread to get locked opcorn:


Really? I will be banned on the third offense. And I won't mind, because all I did was post asking about Steel Cross.

I am not bickering in any way? What did I do this time? Drive a silver cross into someone's heart?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

melissajancie said:


> Just wondering how long it will take for this thread to get locked opcorn:


Wondering or hoping it gets locked? :grin2:


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, I think you and that breeder are on one page so why don't you go there and stop the bickering here? Why are we all reinforcing the wrong behavior with attention?
Moderators, please lock these kinda threads as it only ends in nastiness.


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Winnal said:


> A fault just for conformation though? You can still do other titling like agility, police dog, tracking right?
> 
> If he said a good dog cannot be a bad color, then isn't it contradicting himself to say he is not a fan of weak, washed out colors? Can you please cite the source of that quote coming out of his mouth?
> 
> Ok, so they turned out to care about color a lot (but you can argue, they don't care about the standard color, just pure/good genetics), that has nothing to do with my point though, which is just that if they have dogs that color and are "pure" then mine could be as well. I'm not trying to give them any merit or anything for their breeding ability or anything.




Dance again (see the highlighted red, but they are the breeder you chose to ask about. Ask about breeders that work their dogs, and do testing if you want to know about positive breeding programs. It really doesn't matter at all what other colors or coats that any other breeders have, it won't affect the purity of yours. If you need or want to know if she's pure then do the dna testing suggested. I think she's beautiful as I think mine are, but I really don't give squat what anyone thinks of mine. They fit our life and family perfectly, that all that matters to me.


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

ksotto333 said:


> [/COLOR]
> Dance again (see the highlighted red, but they are the breeder you chose to ask about. Ask about breeders that work their dogs, and do testing if you want to know about positive breeding programs. It really doesn't matter at all what other colors or coats that any other breeders have, it won't affect the purity of yours. If you need or want to know if she's pure then do the dna testing suggested. I think she's beautiful as I think mine are, but I really don't give squat what anyone thinks of mine. They fit our life and family perfectly, that all that matters to me.


I would be happy to see these breeders and start looking for them myself, but like I said, I merely posted this as evidence that it is possible for purebred to have a coat like mine that's all. So I inquired about their reputation, you gave me your opinions, right on! Nothing wrong.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

carmspack said:


> they were sable .
> 
> London badass?


Carmen, I can't find the quote from "London: The Dog Who Made The Team" that I so painstakingly typed out once, but what happened was an umpire got in Chuck's face at a ball game, and when he waved his fist too close to Chuck's nose, London (who went to nearly all of Chuck's baseball games with him) came to the rescue. He put his paws up on the umpire's chest, growled in his face, and slowly backed him off the field.

A photographer from Life Magazine caught the incident with his camera, and it was featured in the next edition of the magazine.


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> OP, I think you and that breeder are on one page so why don't you go there and stop the bickering here? Why are we all reinforcing the wrong behavior with attention?
> Moderators, please lock these kinda threads as it only ends in nastiness.


Where am I bickering except right now because you initiated an attack on me?

How has it ended in nastiness or even started to become that way? As far as I can see plenty of useful, relevant, non-aggressive comments have been made that has developed this discussion further... the posts like this that you are posting is what makes it turn nasty.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Winnal said:


> Ok, if you ever end up stopping Steel Cross with what they're doing because they 'should not be breeding', then come tell me and maybe I'll decide not to breed my one dog. I guess there's just no compromise here. You are a die-hard black and brown GSD breeder, I dig.
> 
> And even if I don't end up breeding her, yes I do still want to get her titles and working because she is a working line. And that is the key to me, I believe it's still worthy for my dog to breed as a working-line dog... That's why sables exist if I'm not completely wrong (except for not being 'washed out' colored)...
> 
> ...


Sigh, 

Sable is NOT a washed out color. Black and brown is a genetic color as is sable and solid black. Most call the black and brown dogs black and red. Then there is a gene for pigment. If there is little pigment the red parts become tan, and then silver or cream. They call these washed out black and tan. While it is not a disqualifying fault, is not preferred, and wouldn't win in the ring. And the blues and livers are dilutes. They can be dilutes of black and brown or dilutes of solid color dogs. I think they can be dilutes of sable as well. 

Sable is actually dominant to other colors. It is certainly an allowable color. Evenso, it is not common in German Show Lines. It is more common in American Lines, but mostly the working lines have the majority of the sable coloring, as well as bi-colors and solid blacks. 

But you are either breeding to the standard or you are not. That is up to individual breeders. No law says you must breed to the standard. If you are not, you are not. I guess I think it is better for white breeders to throw that line out than the entire standard. But to breed dilutes, well, 

You see a white dog is a masking gene. It can still produce vibrant black and tan dogs. A blue dog is a dilution, and it will be much more likely to degrade whatever dog is bred to it further and further until you have that liver-cream puppy. A reputable breeder doesn't want to do that. Breeders who want to market and sell their dogs as rare when they are just washed out are the ones doing that. It's kind of like having a birth-defect like no tail, and finding that the dog passed that on, and breeding the dog because people will buy them because they think it is cute or because they pity them. Look at Panda-GSDs. There is supposedly some gene-deformity that caused the color scheme, and they are being bred like crazy just to supply people who want a fad-color. 

Preservers of the breed, the breeders who care about the breed don't do that.


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

selzer said:


> Sigh,
> 
> Sable is NOT a washed out color. Black and brown is a genetic color as is sable and solid black. Most call the black and brown dogs black and red. Then there is a gene for pigment. If there is little pigment the red parts become tan, and then silver or cream. They call these washed out black and tan. While it is not a disqualifying fault, is not preferred, and wouldn't win in the ring. And the blues and livers are dilutes. They can be dilutes of black and brown or dilutes of solid color dogs. I think they can be dilutes of sable as well.
> 
> ...


Right, my dog is 'sable', but people claim she is washed-out... Don't you get me?

Very useful, helpful information nonetheless, thanks.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Sunsilver said:


> Carmen, I can't find the quote from "London: The Dog Who Made The Team" that I so painstakingly typed out once, but what happened was an umpire got in Chuck's face at a ball game, and when he waved his fist too close to Chuck's nose, London (who went to nearly all of Chuck's baseball games with him) came to the rescue. He put his paws up on the umpire's chest, growled in his face, and slowly backed him off the field.
> 
> A photographer from Life Magazine caught the incident with his camera, and it was featured in the next edition of the magazine.


I know the story off by heart .


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Winnal said:


> Really? Maybe I'm going mad then? Cus in my mind I keep reading, your dog is washed-out. ??
> 
> Give me a break, I don't have a Trump wall. I felt attacked for saying my dog has a 'rare' coat and people kept saying I was breeding for coat when I wasn't. That's the only wall I built.


Black and silver is a washed out black and tan, genetically. That is just a fact, not an opinion. 

I didn't mention Trump, or his wall. The wall I mentioned is when we hear something we perceive as negative about ourselves or our dog, and we shoot up our defenses so hight that we do not hear anything more that is said. Nothing to do with politics, which is another no-no here.


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

selzer said:


> Black and silver is a washed out black and tan, genetically. That is just a fact, not an opinion.
> 
> I didn't mention Trump, or his wall. The wall I mentioned is when we hear something we perceive as negative about ourselves or our dog, and we shoot up our defenses so hight that we do not hear anything more that is said. Nothing to do with politics, which is another no-no here.


Uhh, I was joking? Sarcasm? As in a big wall?

Lol. A bit too serious now are we? I'm trying to relax the mood, sorry...

Well, my dog is listed as a sable in color, so I don't know what to tell you.

And if you're saying that my dog is black and silver, then that's saying that my dog is non-standard coat therefore you said it shouldn't be bred, then you said you didn't say it had a washed-out coat? I'm so confused here.

I AM SO confused! First you say that no one said my dog is a color that is a disqualifying fault (which I'm pretty sure everyone is saying that is the case), then now you're saying my dog is black and silver which is a washed-out color?


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Winnal said:


> Uhh, I was joking? Sarcasm? As in a big wall?
> 
> Lol. A bit too serious now are we? I'm trying to relax the mood, sorry...
> 
> ...


Okay, in all seriousness, can you take a full body photo of your dog from the top and the side. This conversation has actually gotten me curious about it. I didn't think sables had white bibs, etc? I thought sable was a full body color?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

kimbale said:


> Okay, in all seriousness, can you take a full body photo of your dog from the top and the side. This conversation has actually gotten me curious about it. I didn't think sables had white bibs, etc? I thought sable was a full body color?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


See I was confused by this first, why my dog was listed sable... There are darker varients to sable, but it seems like mine has pure white underneath the muzzle and on the sides. Like my dog's sire is the typical, dark sable coat... Not sure why my dog is listed as sable and so was her mom and she looked grayish/silver to me not dark like the dad.

Here's a pic when she was younger for now, I'll take a better one later (stacked) and top view.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Winnal said:


> Uhh, I was joking? Sarcasm? As in a big wall?
> 
> Lol. A bit too serious now are we? I'm trying to relax the mood, sorry...
> 
> ...


Don't joke about politics here, or you will probably be vaporized. They have a zero-tolerance policy on politics. 

Black and silver, if the nose is predominantly black, is a washed out black and tan -- not preferred, but not disqualified. One can breed a black and silver, but ya kind of should have a good reason for it, because it will probably degrade the color further. It is not a dilution. It is that gene in charge of the amount of pigment in the lighter color. 

I really don't know if your dog is sable or black and silver with really odd markings. It doesn't have the pencil toes or tar heels of a lot of sables. A sable should have black on every single hair -- full body. The sire is sable and sable is dominant, if that is the gene he passed on, but people who know more about sables than I do have suggested that the pup is not. I am not a fan of the sable color and have never owned one. 

What the papers say is only as good as the breeder. When I fill out papers, I can call them whatever color I want to. Black and red, black and tan, black and silver, sable, white, black etc. It doesn't mean I am right when I call out what a pup is. And a LOT of novice breeders screw up when they see the little mostly black puppies at 6-8 weeks and think they are bi-colors, when they are really typical saddle-back puppies. 

Now a sable puppy usually looks grey as a pup, but so do blues. and so some saddle-back puppies start out lighter and darken. Of course a patterned sable is sometimes hard to differentiate from a black and tan. So, I don't know. I originally thought sable, then I would buy a black and silver with a reverse mask, maybe. 

Again, as you say, I like my black and brown dogs, LOL!


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

selzer said:


> Don't joke about politics here, or you will probably be vaporized. They have a zero-tolerance policy on politics.
> 
> Black and silver, if the nose is predominantly black, is a washed out black and tan -- not preferred, but not disqualified. One can breed a black and silver, but ya kind of should have a good reason for it, because it will probably degrade the color further. It is not a dilution. It is that gene in charge of the amount of pigment in the lighter color.
> 
> ...


Are you joking? I'm joking by comparing the size of his wall, not about politics. Wow, and supposedly you're a nice normal person? I don't like talking to you at all for this reason. I don't think I want to respond to you anymore, might block actually.

If I get banned because I joked about a big wall that you said I put up and compared it to a Trump wall, then IDK, too bad I guess. I was making a joke about the size of a particular wall, not discussing politics. I just didn't know even his name incites politics. So if I say 'jesus' I'm talking religion?

Some of these rules are not clearly defined to me...


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

kimbale said:


> I thought sable was a full body color?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk



Sable can be a patterned sable. So a dog could be black and tan but the pattern is a saddle or a blanket back. A sable can have a saddle pattern. BUT what makes a sable easy to identify is the banded hair. If the dog doesn't have that then it's not a sable.


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Okay, so your dog doesn't have as much white as the other pictures were making me think it did. Maybe a silver sable? With a wolf mask face?

Honestly I don't know a lot about markings and coloring so someone more knowledgeable than me will have to answer this.

I am legit curious now, though.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Sable can be a patterned sable. So a dog could be black and tan but the pattern is a saddle or a blanket back. A sable can have a saddle pattern. BUT what makes a sable easy to identify is the banded hair. If the dog doesn't have that then it's not a sable.


Ah, okay. Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## Winnal (Mar 23, 2017)

kimbale said:


> I am legit curious now, though.


Looks like we're in the same boat now.


----------

