# Insight on this pedigree



## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

I have currently begun my search for my second IPO dog. I am currently training my 3yr old bitch and while she is doing quite well, I'm very aware that I will need to get a dog more suited for the sport to really excel. 

I am in touch with a few breeders who have been keeping an eye out for a dog that may suite my needs, and have been mostly looking into working lines. With that, I have also been in touch with 1 WGSL breeder whom feels they may have a dog that Is suitable. They have been very honest with me and explained to me that this is the only dog from their litter they feel would be the right fit, though I am a bit on the edge as WGSL wasn't really on my radar. 
I do really like this boys look and from what she has told me, his temperament and drive are right around what I'm looking for as well, as someone just getting into the sport and not looking for an "extreme" dog or one they may be too much for me to handle at this time. 

His pedigree does have some names that I recognize but wanted some more experienced eyes to give it a look too just to get a bit of an overview of what I'm looking in to. 


FLAME OF THE FAME Grand Endeavorer Blaze


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Unless I'm missing something, this isn't someone I'd expect to actually know if a dog is capable of IPO. If thats your goal, I'd look elsewhere.
https://www.facebook.com/flameofthefame/


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

If you want to get more involved in IPO, find a breeder who does IPO with their dogs. Be honest about what you are looking for. A good breeder wouldn’t match an over the top, needs to be worked hard every day, cannot settle in the house puppy with someone new to the sport. Where are you located? Are you currently training with an IPO club?


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Unless I'm missing something, this isn't someone I'd expect to actually know if a dog is capable of IPO. If thats your goal, I'd look elsewhere.
> https://www.facebook.com/flameofthefame/


I am looking in various places and have a few different WL breeders who are keeping an eye out for a suitable dog as I am leaning heavily in that direction, this is just one area (WGSL's) that I am unfamiliar with and wanting to know more about. 

Breeder and I have been speaking for a few days now and she understands that I am looking for something very particular and has offered to have the dog worked by another for a better evaluation. At this point in time I have my options wide open and not going to discount him quite yet until the eval happens and I'm also able to see videos myself. 
Though I'm in no rush to get my next dog and I won't be just settling.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The first thing that strikes me about this dog is his hind legs. He's got very light bone, and his legs may not be up to the stress of all the jumping an IPO dog has to do. His front pasterns are quite upright too, which is not ideal for jumping and shock absorption.

If you want a dog with the right temperament for IPO a working line dogs is your best bet, not a show line.


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> If you want to get more involved in IPO, find a breeder who does IPO with their dogs. Be honest about what you are looking for. A good breeder wouldn’t match an over the top, needs to be worked hard every day, cannot settle in the house puppy with someone new to the sport. Where are you located? Are you currently training with an IPO club?


I am in contact with a few breeders that do indeed do IPO with their dogs and looking both locally and over sea's. I specifically am asking about this breeder because I have people who are actively keeping an eye out for a dog that fits what I am looking for and this specific dog is one that was considered a potential match, but because I rarely look into WGSL's I know very little of the known bloodlines. ie. why I'm looking for insight on this particular pedigree. 

I have a very specific type of dog I'm looking for and not bent on one line or another, and while a WL is most likely going to fit that bill more readily, I have no plans to discount any others if I'm approached with a potential. 

I am apart of a IPO club where they are also keeping an eye out as well. Not looking for a puppy, but an adolescent.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The dogs that are really close up in the pedigree aren't dogs most North Americans are familiar with, so I don't think we can be much help with the pedigree.

It's the individual dog that's most important anyway. And I've got a female show line with better bone than that dog...


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> The first thing that strikes me about this dog is his hind legs. He's got very light bone, and his legs may not be up to the stress of all the jumping an IPO dog has to do. His front pasterns are quite upright too, which is not ideal for jumping and shock absorption.
> 
> If you want a dog with the right temperament for IPO a working line dogs is your best bet, not a show line.


Yes conformation was one of this biggest things that put me off for this dog, though I am not generally a fan of WGSL so I try not to be bias. He is still young though so that could possibly account for the lack of bone. Though he does have pretty narrow hips. 

In terms of temperament, I am told he is more similar to what a WL would be then standard SL. But again, I won't know for sure until he's evaluated by another.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

You can tell if a pup has good bone at 8 weeks. His bone is NOT going to get better, though his muscles will fill out.
Here's my pup at 8 weeks. It was the first thing I noticed about this photo:


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Other issues with his conformation: upright shoulder, narrow hips, light bone, steep croup, upright pasterns.

He also has a few faults that won't affect his performance: his tail should not be so long that it's dragging on the ground, and (very common with the show lines, but I still don't like it) his head looks to be too big for his body, and he has a slightly Roman nose and droopy flews.

I would at least get a dog that looks like it's up to the stress of doing IPO, then have the club trainer assess it to see if it's got the right temperament.

Show lines CAN work - we have one in our club that's an absolute powerhouse. It' just that you're more likely to find the 'right stuff' with a working line. Also, I've seen some showlines with such exaggerated conformation that they have trouble doing the jumps. Conformation DOES affect working ability.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sounds like you have your doubts already.... I would listen to that inner voice.


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Sounds like you have your doubts already.... I would listen to that inner voice.


I always have doubts on WGSL's because I know so little about them! Not to mention I get kind of iffy with roaching (just my personal preference). 

Buuuut, I figured I'd get some second opinions and try not to be bias. Definitely glad I did!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The only thing you'll have with this dog, is someones word. Make sure its someone you can trust.


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> The only thing you'll have with this dog, is someones word. Make sure its someone you can trust.


Very good advice! Probably why I've been in search for over a year now :laugh:

But you know what they say, All good things come in time!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm suspicious of any "dominant" black GSD. I would want a DNA to confirm parentage.

second, if I remember right, you are in Maryland. You have so many good litters around you. Why are you looking here for an IPO prospect?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

and this....
https://www.facebook.com/flameofthe...8678273682702/242013326349196/?type=3&theater

Is just sad. That dog can't work with that conformation.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

That has got to be just about the worst stacking job I've ever seen! The dog's rear end looks like it's falling sideways!

Very hard to tell what the dog's conformation would look like if she were properly stacked, but I don't think it would be very good. She is very long in the body.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Curing. vom evolution has a stellar litter right now. I've trained with the father. Interacted with the mother at her home. It's a repeat litter. Super solid pups.
Litters - Vom evolution


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Too much Zamp. I would expect the dog to be soft in temperament and maybe lack the nerve you would like for sport.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Curing said:


> Very good advice! Probably why I've been in search for over a year now :laugh:
> 
> But you know what they say, All good things come in time!


If I'm seeing this right and that dog is in the Ukraine? I don't care what the pedigree says, I would be very worried you're getting ripped off. Curing, either you're dealing with someone online you shouldn't put your trust in, or someone you have actually met isn't someone you should trust in this. Whatever you do, don't buy a dog online.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

sorry - even the strongest SL dogs have issues in one phase or another of IPO.....occasionally a super good trainer (as Ivan B or T Floyd) does pretty well with a WGSL...but that is NOT the norm....many can track well, and I have seen some nice protection work now and then....but the OB is usually where they fall apart - have not seen one who can sustain drive under any pressure or corrections....

Get a pup from dogs who are proven producers from breeders who have done the sport and sold pups to others who have been titled by the buyers.

Lee


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

lhczth said:


> Too much Zamp. I would expect the dog to be soft in temperament and maybe lack the nerve you would like for sport.


Did you see the video on the FB page where a x-country skier approaches the dog, and he quickly backs away?

I was just looking at a site here in Ontario that breeds German showlines. One section is titled 'Our Dog's Achievements'. Out of more than 20 dogs, I think there are TWO that have 1PO titles! Oh, there are lots of show ratings and conformation titles, as well as basic obedience and tracking, but not IPO!


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> @Curing. vom evolution has a stellar litter right now. I've trained with the father. Interacted with the mother at her home. It's a repeat litter. Super solid pups.
> Litters - Vom evolution


I'm actually in Missouri but looking all around. Though I am not looking for a puppy at this time, I'm trying to stay around 6mo and older, but no older then 2, at this time. Which is one of the reasons I'm having such a hard time I believe. Not many at that age that don't have problems (which is why they're being sold). If it comes down to it I'll settle on a puppy, but it's not my first choice.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

There's plenty of what you're looking for out there Curing, but you have to get to know people in person, and over some time. Online, you're more likely to be taken advantage of.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are a lot of breeders that keep around a puppy to grow up a bit. Doesn't mean they have something wrong with them. I have kept back a few males over the years to sell later waiting for the right buyer. Anyone who knows me knows I don't like handling males and any I keep back will eventually be sold. There are some good breeders in a relatively minor driving distance from MO. You don't need to go over seas.


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> If I'm seeing this right and that dog is in the Ukraine? I don't care what the pedigree says, I would be very worried you're getting ripped off. Curing, either you're dealing with someone online you shouldn't put your trust in, or someone you have actually met isn't someone you should trust in this. Whatever you do, don't buy a dog online.


I've talked to a few people in the states that own dogs from this breeder who like them but neither are doing IPO with their dogs so they were only able to give me very minimal information. One person did share that a few of the siblings of the bitch she owns are doing IPO, but anyone can say that so who knows if its even true. 

I've since focused my search back on WL's and specifically ones I can visit if need be.


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

lhczth said:


> There are a lot of breeders that keep around a puppy to grow up a bit. Doesn't mean they have something wrong with them. I have kept back a few males over the years to sell later waiting for the right buyer. Anyone who knows me knows I don't like handling males and any I keep back will eventually be sold. There are some good breeders in a relatively minor driving distance from MO. You don't need to go over seas.


Oh yes I am very aware, I'm just saying at this time I've had some trouble because most of what I've been met with were older dogs whom are being sold BECAUSE they have one problem or another and most of the other breeders I'm in contact with just have puppies at this time. 

I'm looking both over seas and locally though because I have people over seas that are willing to help in that aspect. Though my personal sights are being kept locally. 

I'm very opening to suggestions too! My search has really dried up since last year and I feel like a lot of times I'm missing the good dogs!


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

By the way I appreciate everyones advice and opinions. This is something I'm taking pretty seriously so it matters a lot to get good advice from experienced people. 

Currently I have our trainers, our IPO director, and a few others who have been helping me look. I stopped my search when I started back up with training my current dog and sadly haven't had a lot of success since I started up again.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If anyone is directing you to brokered dogs in the Ukraine, I'd have a very hard time believing its someone you should put much faith in.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm mean this to be helpful Curing, but when it comes to dogs, it pays to be cynical and start with a presumption that a lot of people are full of crap. The dog you asked about isn't a dog people are searching for. Period. If those people in Europe aren't blood relatives that would have to answer to you in some way, forget about them. If anyone local to you can't directly lead you to an appropriate dog from proven parents and a knowledgeable, active, experienced breeder, they're the wrong people for you to trust in this.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Curing, I've been around GSD message boards for 10 years now, and in that time of heard of SO many people who imported European dogs (especially from Eastern Europe) being ripped off. Dogs arrived sick, fearful and skinny. Papers not being sent. Breeders taking deposits and not sending a dog. Dogs not matching the description of the one purchased.

I would NOT import a dog. And even when buying in N. America, I would want to meet the dog, the breeder and, if possible, the dog's parents IN PERSON before buying! 

Heck, I've even done the 'meet in person' thing when deciding whether to adopt a rescue dog! :rolleyes2:

It really is 'caveat emptor' (buyer beware)!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Curing said:


> I'm actually in Missouri but looking all around. Though I am not looking for a puppy at this time, I'm trying to stay around 6mo and older, but no older then 2, at this time. Which is one of the reasons I'm having such a hard time I believe. Not many at that age that don't have problems (which is why they're being sold). If it comes down to it I'll settle on a puppy, but it's not my first choice.


MO? Go talk to Shane at 
Vertrauen German Shepherds

He has a long line of WGSL's and has just started breeding WL in the last few years. He has some really nice WL lines.

Many breeders keep back puppies to see what they are producing. You are going to pay about $4500 for a started dog.


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