# What line of GSD for schutzhund prospect?



## DerekMcCarthy (Aug 31, 2013)

Hi everyone I am new to the forum so don't really know where exactly to post this at. I went to a schutzhund show last year and I got really into it after watching the show. I want to get into schutzund but don't know what "type" of german shepherd to get?

I've always liked the muscular looking shepherds with the imposing head look. I am not really a fan of the lean/slim look of the shepherds. I have owned 4 Rottweilers and a Rottweiler/German Shepherd mix so far, so I am used to these type of breeds.

I am also looking for the shepherd to be a business guard dog for me as well. Should I look into getting a female or male? I've always been a fan of the black and sable colored dogs as well.

Is it true that the darker the dog, the better the deterrent? I read that somewhere but can't remember where.

BTW I live in Orlando, Florida.


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## DerekMcCarthy (Aug 31, 2013)

Maybe a shepherd with a structure like this?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I would visit some club and check out some dogs. When you see a dog you like in both appearance and work, then ask where it came from. Also ask about the dogs you don't like at all. It's always good to know where you don't want to go as well. You will quickly discover all the different flavors of the GSD. 

Also I might re-post this in the schutzhund section.


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## DerekMcCarthy (Aug 31, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> I would visit some club and check out some dogs. When you see a dog you like in both appearance and work, then ask where it came from. Also ask about the dogs you don't like at all. It's always good to know where you don't want to go as well. You will quickly discover all the different flavors of the GSD.
> 
> Also I might re-post this in the schutzhund section.


Ok thank you, but you know of any breeders that produces dogs like I described or what line fits that description? I tried googling working breeders but I am having a hard time figuring out who is and is not a good breeder from their website


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

DerekMcCarthy said:


> Ok thank you, but you know of any breeders that produces dogs like I described or what line fits that description? I tried googling working breeders but I am having a hard time figuring out who is and is not a good breeder from their website


Well here is a few breeders I like in no particular order. Check them out, talk to them and see if any fit your needs. Happy hunting.


Blackthorn Working German Shepherds -- Available Puppies
(Wildhaus Kennels, Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan)
von Wolfstraum: Background
German Shepherd Dog, True Haus Kennels
Alaska Dog Boarding & Training
Staatsmacht Kennel, one of the top working lines kennel in the world
Zu Treuen Händen Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

If you intend to do schutzhund you need a dog from working lines. The you showed does look like working lines.

The darker the dog there is sometimes a bigger intimidation factor. Of course there are a lot of factors including how the dog carries himself. 

Male or female is up to you and your personal preference. I once trained a full brother and sister at the same time and my decoy once mentioned that my male would kill the bad guy and fling him at my feet as an offering where the girl would prob only render him unconsciousness but would hide the body well enough that no one would find it.

Before anyone takes that literally we didn't really kill anyone but we did enjoy seeing the difference in the two siblings and would spend some time discussing it! LOL

But, possible schutzhund, business security. How important are these traits to you? If it's real important you may be better off getting a slightly older dog that can be tested a bit.


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## DerekMcCarthy (Aug 31, 2013)

Betty said:


> If you intend to do schutzhund you need a dog from working lines. The you showed does look like working lines.
> 
> The darker the dog there is sometimes a bigger intimidation factor. Of course there are a lot of factors including how the dog carries himself.
> 
> ...


Schutzhund wise, I am 90 percent sure that I want to try but unless I actually go out and do it I am not going to know for sure. Business security is a must for me. I own three businesses in a 5 mile radius and 95% of my revenue intake is cash which I have to transport home on a daily basis. So I would feel better if I had a dog there with me. The locations of where my businesses and home are located at are in very safe neighborhoods but I would much rather be safe than sorry.

Otherwise the dog would just be a family companion. If I get an older dog, would the dog bond with my family and I well? All the dogs I've owned so far were backyard bred puppies that my clients gave to me. Also, if a dog is trained for schutzhund would it be safe around children?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

PM Cliffson1(username) here, he could help you get a personal protection dog that could do Schutzhund if that is the training you want to do. 
A dog trained in the sport should be fine around young children...as long as the dog is of good temperament! 
I like starting out with a puppy, especially if you have young children, and the cost is less than buying a green dog or one that already has some training done. Some don't want to deal with that puppy stage, and paying more(quadruple) for a dog that has foundation done is worth it to them. 

I wouldn't go with some of the online ads for personal protection trained dogs....unless you want to spend over the top rediculous amount of money.


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## DerekMcCarthy (Aug 31, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> PM Cliffson1(username) here, he could help you get a personal protection dog that could do Schutzhund if that is the training you want to do.
> A dog trained in the sport should be fine around young children...as long as the dog is of good temperament!
> I like starting out with a puppy, especially if you have young children, and the cost is less than buying a green dog or one that already has some training done. Some don't want to deal with that puppy stage, and paying more(quadruple) for a dog that has foundation done is worth it to them.
> 
> I wouldn't go with some of the online ads for personal protection trained dogs....unless you want to spend over the top rediculous amount of money.


How much would I be looking at for a PPD? Because I don't have anywhere near $80,000 to spend of a trained personal protection dog. I haven't really looked into PPDs aren't they considered a liability?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would just contact Cliff...he is honest and knowledgeable. If a dog is trained right, it is not a liability. 
One reason I'd rather go with a pup, so I know exactly what training has been done and IMO the journey is worth it. It shouldn't be rushed though, a 3 yr old adult dog is barely 'finished' with the training that goes into PP or IPO. 
A mature GSD with good genetics that you train(with the help of a club) will protect you just like any 80 grand PP one would.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

west german lines?

look for tom van't leefdaalhof linebred maybe?


onyx 80 grand OMG even 20 grand for a pp dog i dont think its worth it 

20 grand for a dog with lots of titles and is a good breeding prospect and can sire litters yes worth it but not a pp dog

a dog that will bite and fight for you should not be that rare to find or hard to train with a good trainer these insane prices are so sad

10 grand for a level 3 pp dog but if it is worth anything why would it listen to a total novice though? Like would your dog who is train in pp you sell it a total novice you think she or he will listen to them? What do you think will happen when a dog with that much self confdience gets corrected by a novice? IDK It is just hard to see how this stuff works.

I agree with you onx eeven I after training my green started PP dog I would not buy a level 3 pp dog ever. THe amount of civil training those dogs have is just scary, its a loaded gun, a scary animal would a lot of power. Irather get another green dog and train it myself again. Not going to risk myself. When they come off the plane you dont know how you or the dog are going to mix together if you are not a very experienced person.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I didn't suggest the price would be 80 grand, Derek did. Here is a video of ignorant people paying over the top prices for a PP dog. Harrison must be laughing all the way to the bank:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm-ajC3C5Ok


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## DerekMcCarthy (Aug 31, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I didn't suggest the price would be 80 grand, Derek did. Here is a video of ignorant people paying over the top prices for a PP dog. Harrison must be laughing all the way to the bank:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm-ajC3C5Ok


Yeah, I looked at Harrison K9 and CPI as a price reference.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

pets4life said:


> IDK It is just hard to see how this stuff works.


Inexperienced people will (apparently) pay a lot for washouts with fancy marketing.

I've never met any of these dogs in person, so hey, I could be wrong... but looking at the websites and parsing their listings, it really seems like that's all there is to it.

OP: myco and onyx'girl gave you some good suggestions. Go to a club, see what kinds of dogs you like, maybe reach out to some of the people they've suggested.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Adding to the list~

in KY: https://www.facebook.com/VonRisdenHaus?hc_location=stream
If you aren't on fb here is the website:
K9 Motivation Dog Training
And this one in TN: http://www.k9imports.com/

I highly recommend Wildhaus, though they don't breed often. 
I love my WH dog!!


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

DerekMcCarthy said:


> Schutzhund wise, I am 90 percent sure that I want to try but unless I actually go out and do it I am not going to know for sure. Business security is a must for me. I own three businesses in a 5 mile radius and 95% of my revenue intake is cash which I have to transport home on a daily basis. So I would feel better if I had a dog there with me. The locations of where my businesses and home are located at are in very safe neighborhoods but I would much rather be safe than sorry.
> 
> Otherwise the dog would just be a family companion. If I get an older dog, would the dog bond with my family and I well? All the dogs I've owned so far were backyard bred puppies that my clients gave to me. Also, if a dog is trained for schutzhund would it be safe around children?


It does sound like a puppy would be best for you situation.

A solid working line pup with good temperament should do fine by you. Never underestimate the deterrent factor of a nice German Shepherd with solid ob and maybe a bark or alert on command. 

Yes, if the dog has the proper temperament schutzhund trained dogs are generally good around kids. Some dogs better then others, but with all my dogs I do not allow kids or adults to invade their space. 

I have never had trouble bonding with an adult dog. As a matter of fact most of the adult dogs that end up here I think started off life as kennel dogs and they seem very eager to bond.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I went back, you live in Orlando? 

If you are interested in training in Personal Protection one of the best decoy/trainers I have ever worked with is in Archer (near Ocala). Not sure if that drive would be doable for you or not.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

$80k?!??


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

robk said:


> $80k?!??


I've always wondered what they actually get.....

LOL

I know I've never gotten anything close to that for a fully trained PP dog. 

Now I did have some friends that were selling dogs like crazy to South American with various levels of training but even while they were getting what I considered some crazy prices it didn't approach that.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

onx is that your dog biting the jacket

I just recently bought a civil jacket for decoys to put on when working my dog


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

pets4life said:


> onx is that your dog biting the jacket
> 
> I just recently bought a civil jacket for decoys to put on when working my dog



Yes, it was last weekend, we were doing the SDA P1 routine. Though sadly there are no SDA trials locally to get our bite on. Karlo is regularly training in IPO, but I love the SDA exercises. Hopefully the suit you got has some padding and other protective gear to cushion. Bruising is a given with suit work, but having quality equipment is important. KUDO'S to all the helper/decoys that step up for our fun.
Friendly greeting after the agitation:


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## DerekMcCarthy (Aug 31, 2013)

Thank you for the all the replies everyone! I thought 80,000 was on the lower end for a PPD, I saw an article on google about a business executive who bought one for $235,000. 

Now if I were to get a dog for schutzhund, whether it be a male or female. Should I get the dog neutered or spayed? Would that lower drive?

Also, I found this video of a GSD on youtube that is structurally what I am looking for. Nice head, not too tall, not too short, good muscular body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w8lqdqjfMY

What subset of working line do you think would be close to what a dog like this looks like and good for a beginning schutzhund owner?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jane, just get your group to hold a trial! I have checked the website. Karlo is still registered and everything.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> Yes, it was last weekend, we were doing the SDA P1 routine. Though sadly there are no SDA trials locally to get our bite on. Karlo is regularly training in IPO, but I love the SDA exercises. Hopefully the suit you got has some padding and other protective gear to cushion. Bruising is a given with suit work, but having quality equipment is important. KUDO'S to all the helper/decoys that step up for our fun.
> Friendly greeting after the agitation:



I love the SDA Protection Exercises!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

mycobraracr said:


> Jane, just get your group to hold a trial! I have checked the website. Karlo is still registered and everything.


We would if we had a regulation training field. There is one guy in the state that was going to hold a trial, I'm still praying and hoping he will(I know it is a ton of work to plan!)


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Derek You are confused, shutzund is a sport, personal protection is the real deal 


you are getting them both mixed up if someone wants a personal protection dog they dont usually train it it shutzund and vice versa 


shutzund can be an early puppy foundation for pp 


this depends if you need a very serious pp dog or just a normal family protection dog/deter


onyx i like your dog, he seems naturally civil?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> We would if we had a regulation training field. There is one guy in the state that was going to hold a trial, I'm still praying and hoping he will(I know it is a ton of work to plan!)


 
Regulation meaning size? Even if it's too small(given still enough room) a judge can work with it. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help. I want to see this sport take off!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

also if you want protection you don't want dog bred for shutzund you might want to get a dog bred for police patrol instead? Where is your location?

Looks of the dog should not matter its the temperament. You can get the most scary looking dog in the world and i can cross your fence line and take your dog and all your stuff. Remember what you are getting into with protection comes lots of energy =l A lot of work. They dont sit around the house, they like to work and keep busy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

mycobraracr said:


> Regulation meaning size? Even if it's too small(given still enough room) a judge can work with it. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help. I want to see this sport take off!


 Thank you, we don't have a field, or tracking grounds. We'd have to find a park or something that would allow it. My club isn't affiliated with USCA or SDA because of the lack of property.
Derek, SDA may be a good opportunity if you have a group fairly local(2 hour drive, lol!) to you, it is not so sporty as IPO and not the same as PSA. 
Pets4life, yes you saw it! Karlo is not what I'd call a sport dog. Pattern/routines are not his thing, lol.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

pets4life said:


> also if you want protection you don't want dog bred for shutzund you might want to get a dog bred for police patrol instead? Where is your location?
> 
> Looks of the dog should not matter its the temperament.


Thats why I suggested he contact Cliff


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Betty said:


> I love the SDA Protection Exercises!



Look at your dog wishing the decoy would make a false move lol I love that intense stare Onx did you ask for a naturally civil dog or did you get lucky? a dog that will just bite anything?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Luck~but viewing his sires video's when I was looking for a puppy had me wanting a pup from his sire! I was so fortunate to be in the right place/right time. RIP Andy https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OgKXqHOPlIQ


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


>


 
Hey! I think I took that photo! I ain't so bad if I do say so myself!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You have many talents W. Oliver!


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

DerekMcCarthy said:


> Hi everyone I am new to the forum so don't really know where exactly to post this at. I went to a schutzhund show last year and I got really into it after watching the show. I want to get into schutzund but don't know what "type" of german shepherd to get?
> 
> I've always liked the muscular looking shepherds with the imposing head look. I am not really a fan of the lean/slim look of the shepherds. I have owned 4 Rottweilers and a Rottweiler/German Shepherd mix so far, so I am used to these type of breeds.
> 
> ...


Best prospect will need to have 2 key items,

1. Proven success for sire and dam (Schh3 or with WUSV/BSP performances)
2. Puppy selection

Other than that chances of successful training are very slim. By successful training I mean titling to IPO3 level HOT.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

are dogs bred for Schutzhund and Police patrol or are they
trained to do Schutzhund and Police patrol?



pets4life said:


> >>>>> also if you want protection you don't want dog bred for shutzund you might want to get a dog bred for police patrol instead? <<<<<
> 
> 
> Where is your location?
> ...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

there's lots of show lines that excell in Schutzhund.



Betty said:


> >>>>> If you intend to do schutzhund you need a dog from
> working lines. <<<<<
> 
> 
> ...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

doggiedad said:


> there's lots of show lines that excell in Schutzhund.


Not really doggiedad, there are few that are really good. How many SL's do you see at the Regional or National level doing the sport and getting high scores?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never been to the Regionals or the Nationals. i've seen
breeders with show lines that are titled. i don't know what
level it is.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have you watched the protection done at the Sieger shows? I don't want this thread turned into a debate about the SL or WL, but there is a difference in power and courage shown in the different lines. Not to say all SL's are not going to excel, but the ones that do are far and few between.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> are dogs bred for Schutzhund and Police patrol or are they
> trained to do Schutzhund and Police patrol?


 
They are bred for it. I don't care how a good a trainer, you can't turn a dog into something it's not. 




doggiedad said:


> there's lots of show lines that excell in Schutzhund.


 
I think we may have different ideas of "excelling". Achieving a title title at a club level is not my idea of a dog excelling.




doggiedad said:


> i've never been to the Regionals or the Nationals. i've seen
> breeders with show lines that are titled. i don't know what
> level it is.


 
doggiedad, I'm not saying SL's can't achieve titles. We all know they are capable and there are always exceptions to the rules. It is generally a lot more work to get a SL to the same place as a WL. For me the biggest difference isn't even nerve or drives(which do factor in) it's about work ethic. I have not personally seen a SL that has any work ethic.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> They are bred for it. I don't care how a good a trainer, you can't turn a dog into something it's not.


 



that is so true but how come people dont understand that? I have had german shepherds before you can train them with all the money in the world you are not going to turn them into a protection dog. You will turn them into a fearful mess. Their parents did not have it in them they did not have it in them they will never have it in them its just not what they are or who they are. Trying to train them like that is just cruel.


But doggy dad a lot of the schutzund dogs cannot do police or pp and I am sure VICE VERSA. So have to be careful on selection. Like there are plenty of prey monsters that are just not good at pp. Some pp dogs are really bad at schutzund.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Luck~but viewing his sires video's when I was looking for a puppy had me wanting a pup from his sire! I was so fortunate to be in the right place/right time. RIP Andy https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OgKXqHOPlIQ



yeah he def got his dads nice genes, does he like other dogs? or cats? is he okay with strangers in public? i bet behind the fence he probably does not like strangers approaching.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Hey I just wanted to say something I noticed the gsd's doing ring or excell in ring seem a lot more serious then the ones in scutzud? I dont know if its just fluke or whatever just something I noticed. The ring dogs seem so civil and hard. Something to keep in mind. The ones i saw were monsters lol (when doing protection) ust impressive dogs. Like they work with the mals they do not seem like prey monsters either.

There is one montreal ring club going for her ring 3 really nice dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

pets4life said:


> yeah he def got his dads nice genes, does he like other dogs? or cats? is he okay with strangers in public? i bet behind the fence he probably does not like strangers approaching.


He is neutral to other dogs, not one that wants to play with random dogs(he gets along fine when I allow him to interact, good with small breeds and pups too!) 
He loves my cats, obsessed with my senior kitty. Aloof with anyone he doesn't know. In his crate, he's calm unless someone approaches the inside of the vehicle where his crate is. Low warning growl. 








These two were strangers to him, he was very calm with the puppy, the older male tried to get into it with Karlo and Karlo gave it right back. We were at a family gathering and these were my sisters dogs. After about an hour of me keeping K away from the older dog, my sister wasn't paying attention and her dog rushed K trying to fight .... the male stopped in his tracks when K went off. I stopped it immediately and I know K intimidated the dog bigtime just with his noise.








.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Okay Jane, this thread isn't about your poorly bred mutt. (Just incase there was any doubt, this is sarcasm).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know, I had to share him loving on his kitty  Back to your regulary scheduled where to find a good SchH protection dog thread. 
How many GSD's do ring,? The ones that are doing it are bred for that sport, aren't they? I know of one breeder that has ring GSD's but he supposedly doesn't health test and pedigree info is shady(mal x's?) 
There's one ring club in my area(2 hours away) and most of them have mals & dutchies.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Wow where is the pile on about how much awesomeness SLs have?

But seriously if you get out to a club, you see how much effort goes into titling them. MyCobra has it right, poor work ethic, poor nerves, and lower drive make for a long hard road for the most part. Its like buying a Porsche vs a Civic for track racing. Yes you can mod the heck out of the Civic and make it more then it is..but when you can just buy the Porsche and be that much farther ahead why bother?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Wow where is the pile on about how much awesomeness SLs have?
> 
> But seriously if you get out to a club, you see how much effort goes into titling them. MyCobra has it right, poor work ethic, poor nerves, and lower drive make for a long hard road for the most part. Its like buying a Porsche vs a Civic for track racing. Yes you can mod the heck out of the Civic and make it more then it is..but when you can just buy the Porsche and be that much farther ahead why bother?


 
That is almost the exact analogy I was going to use hahahaha.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

"You can put lipstick on a Civic...but in the end its still a Civic".


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Yes you can mod the heck out of the Civic and make it more then it is..but when you can just buy the Porsche and be that much farther ahead why bother?


Important to keep in mind, though, is that the OP is a newcomer to the sport who isn't 100% sure he wants to do IPO.

I'm a _terrible_ driver. I'd rather have the Civic.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Merciel said:


> Important to keep in mind, though, is that the OP is a newcomer to the sport who isn't 100% sure he wants to do IPO.
> 
> I'm a _terrible_ driver. I'd rather have the Civic.


Yes but he wants to race, so getting a Civic, not a good idea..
Its way easier to train and work a dog with good drive, nerve and genetics then bring along one thats deficient in those areas. Been through that noise, not much fun..


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Well, if I am new to racing, never been on a track, then a Porche may be too much handle. May not win with my civic, but am much less likely to crash and burn and take down the 10 cars around me due to my inability to control the car. 

That said, I can work with my civic. Soop it up a bit, learn control without crashing, and gain confidence before putting everything into a more intense car. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Well, if I am new to racing, never been on a track, then a Porche may be too much handle. May not win with my civic, but am much less likely to crash and burn and take down the 10 cars around me due to my inability to control the car.
> 
> That said, I can work with my civic. Soop it up a bit, learn control without crashing, and gain confidence before putting everything into a more intense car.
> 
> ...


Perhaps my analogy has been misunderstood. :help: Most people that are modding cars for racing know a lot hence why they are able to take a base model that is not ideal and make it act and appear to be something it is not. A newb is probably better off starting with a better base model that requires less work to preform well.

It takes more skill to train a weaker dog then one that has "it". Of course you can end up with to much "it"... but Im sure someone will take that off your hands if you get so lucky.  
So telling him to get a SL dog for schutzhund and PP is probably not a good idea.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Then maybe he should just go with a KNPV Mal or Dutchie! Those are a breeze to train, lol...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Then maybe he should just go with a KNPV Mal or Dutchie! Those are a breeze to train, lol...


 

David Winners


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Then maybe he should just go with a KNPV Mal or Dutchie! Those are a breeze to train, lol...


Ahh a Ferrari, you have good taste . Perhaps thats a good example of the too much "it" I was talking about. A decent WL GSD should be easier to handle.. Then again I have seen some of the aformentioned that are easy keepers.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1, I understand what you're trying to say and I agree. I have ran into this a lot. It's hard to train a dog and handler when you have to take 1 step forward and 5 steps back because the dog can't progress. Or they get stuck in the same place for years never growing because the dog can't progress. Much easier to start with the "right" dog for that person. Not saying a "top" sport prospect, but at least a dog that WANTS to do the work.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> Blitzkrieg1, I understand what you're trying to say and I agree. I have ran into this a lot. It's hard to train a dog and handler when you have to take 1 step forward and 5 steps back because the dog can't progress. Or they get stuck in the same place for years never growing because the dog can't progress. Much easier to start with the "right" dog for that person. Not saying a "top" sport prospect, but at least a dog that WANTS to do the work.


 
Agreed, just because its working line doesnt mean its a balls to the wall man eater. As many on here like to say, the GSD should be a utility dog.

I see a lot of handlers struggling with dogs that are less then decent, I have been there too and as someone newer to sport its not what I would recommend for a newbie. 
Some common dog sense and a decent TD should be sufficient to handle most run of the mill WL dogs imo.


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## Stefan Schaub (Jun 20, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Blitzkrieg1, I understand what you're trying to say and I agree. I have ran into this a lot. It's hard to train a dog and handler when you have to take 1 step forward and 5 steps back because the dog can't progress. Or they get stuck in the same place for years never growing because the dog can't progress. Much easier to start with the "right" dog for that person. Not saying a "top" sport prospect, but at least a dog that WANTS to do the work.


more than right what you say.
get a "real working line" gsd and start with that out.do not listen that the dog is maybe to much,most time they are not enough because of the bad breeding quality of the parents. at one point the progress stops,bad training does not help than either.sorry i know there is not bad training out there
a good gsd is good for everything,he/she is versatile and will grow into the place you give them.it is sad that we have to many people with not really clue but the time to hit the keyboard a 10000000 times a day. do not listen to "my friend have a dog from ...... and he or she is very cut or handsome. find proof of real workability and success.


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## Stefan Schaub (Jun 20, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> Well, if I am new to racing, never been on a track, then a Porche may be too much handle. May not win with my civic, but am much less likely to crash and burn and take down the 10 cars around me due to my inability to control the car.
> 
> That said, I can work with my civic. Soop it up a bit, learn control without crashing, and gain confidence before putting everything into a more intense car.
> 
> ...


but with the porsche you drive with style


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Stefan Schaub;4139050. said:


> find proof of real workability and success.


Every word above is worth its weight in gold. This alone rules out majority of so called "reputable breeders" here and the usual bull that they lead innocent unknowing people believe


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

DerekMcCarthy said:


> How much would I be looking at for a PPD? Because I don't have anywhere near $80,000 to spend of a trained personal protection dog. I haven't really looked into PPDs aren't they considered a liability?



You don't need to spend $80K for a PPD....you need to find a nice young dog who is started in training, who may be too serious for sport, and who has it's hips and elbows done and is already a house dog and likes riding in the car!!! I have a dog like this....it was suggested that I sell him as a PPD by a Mondio Ring decoy (formerly did IPO) because he was not going to point really high in sport.....as he is over the top when in drive and has aggression - all we are doing is teaching him capping now so we can title him..no problem barking or striking - he just ramps UP....Not that he would bring 80K !!! Or that I am trying to sell him - just an example of how you can be taken advantage of on some websites!!! LOL Because THOSE high priced dogs are generally showline dogs whose chief asset is imposing size and demeanor - but the sable dog would do a better job!


Edit to add: just read a few more pages.....I am talking about maybe a Shelby Mustang - not as fancy as the Porsche, but a workhorse and attractive - especially if you are looking at bang for buck!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Packen said:


> Every word above is worth its weight in gold. This alone rules out majority of so called "reputable breeders" here and the usual bull that they lead innocent unknowing people believe


Really? There are some really good breeders 'here'. I don't think they are dishing out bulls... 
but they are also not often posting either.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Oh yeah really


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Maybe it's time for this thread to be closed? JMHO 

Derek, welcome to the most complicated dog breed in the world! 

Just wait 'til you hear about the whole 'prey monster vs civil' dog debate, Czech vs DDR vs WG-working line, the Swiss and Belgium and Slovak(apparently?) programs then there's the whole SchH vs every other protection sport in the world vs "real" working dog training debates ...and that's just within the working lines. 

Keep your hands and arms inside the cart at all times! LOL!!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Stefan's here . There goes the neighborhood.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I disagree that a dog who does IPO sport will not meet the OPs needs....not ALL WL dogs are prey monsters and ball hookers! There ARE dogs who can do the sport, who can act as a deterrent as the OP has described for his needs....Most breeders do breed for sport....but not all!!! Personally, I have both types - the very sporty dogs who will do well scoring and the less sporty who can be worked and titled, but are as, if not much more suitable, for police type work. He does not want a PPD per se, but a dog that has some civil aggression, and IPO work will teach that dog control. A true PPD trained dog can be more of a liability given the OPs description of his needs.

I don't have a 2 year old bi-color though!

Lee


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and maybe the poster doesn't need a 'man eating machine' Just having a nice dog t as lee said, started/good health/likes riding in a car and going to work with it's owner, can live with the family, can be just as much of a deterrent as a barking /snarling off the wall wacko 

I certainly don't participate in sports anymore, but have always found my silent/watchers are much more intimidating to a stranger than ones that barked/looked the part. 

Doesn't have to cost a gazillion bucks either


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup::thumbup:

This is Ilda's "bad boy bad boy, watcha gonna do" look. She rides shotgun with me as I often have to drive alone at night. She's been tested for 'deterrence' meaning no she's not going to launch herself in a flying 15' leap out of the car window in hot pursuit to take down a bad guy...but if someone ignores the look and gets close to my car she's got one heckuava an alert bark and stands her ground. 

That's enough for me. Besides I really don't care 'too much' about my car it can be replaced but God forbid someone messes with my dog, LOL!  










JakodaCD OA said:


> and maybe the poster doesn't need a 'man eating machine' Just having a nice dog t as lee said, started/good health/*likes riding in a car and going to work with it's owner, can live with the family, can be just as much of a deterrent *as a barking /snarling off the wall wacko
> 
> I certainly don't participate in sports anymore, but have always found *my silent/watchers are much more intimidating to a stranger* than ones that barked/looked the part.
> 
> Doesn't have to cost a gazillion bucks either


(she's got a nice dark mask too....)

:wub:


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ... but have always found my silent/watchers are much more intimidating to a stranger than ones that barked/looked the part.


 I agree with that. But I must admit that a barking dog is pretty darn intimidating. When a dog silently watches and then gives a bark and moves forward, the effect of that bark on suspicious strange people is like a dynamite explosion. Especially when the owner doesn't rush to calm the dog or apologize


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with that as well,,I guess it's what I've liked about the majority of my dogs.

They'd sit in my vehicle all day long, for example, you can walk around it, and nothing, the minute you touch it, that silent dog that's been watching your every move, is going to, like you said, explode..You (general you's) may have to go change your pants at that point


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

onyx'girl said:


> I know, I had to share him loving on his kitty  Back to your regulary scheduled where to find a good SchH protection dog thread.
> How many GSD's do ring,? The ones that are doing it are bred for that sport, aren't they? I know of one breeder that has ring GSD's but he supposedly doesn't health test and pedigree info is shady(mal x's?)
> There's one ring club in my area(2 hours away) and most of them have mals & dutchies.


We have two dogs from our breedings, Tibo (Devo) and Weike that are training in Mondio and have worked on some of the top decoys.

Young Enzo son that will be doing French Ring....


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Welcome to the forum. We are in Central Florida as well.

If you're looking for trainers here, I have a few contacts I can share with you.

As of breeders, there are some in the local area... but it's hard to find. Most are small hobby breeders and don't breed often.

Good luck with your search.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I dont know what others have said. I will say this - 

I have a friend that breeds working lines - he only really does Czech because he prefers their drive and work skill. He says ddr are too low drive and reactive and over bred because everyone wants a big black sable. He says west working lines probably produce the best workers but its harder to find a decent west working line. 

Most of the people in my schutzhund club like mals, they keep trying to convert me haha. One thing I will say, all the older trainers/handlers tend to HATE Czech lined shepherds. They say they're too drivey and bitey and crazy. 

Point is opinion really varies. I like my czech/ddr mix. I feel the Czech helps add good drive yet the ddr helps make it an easier dog to live with/handle. Not always so "on".

What you need to do is find an individual breeder with dogs you like. Czech out clubs in your area, see what ones you like, and start looking at pedigrees.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Sorry, CHECK* out clubs in your area! Lol

Btw just watched that video - WHA!?!? can you say rip off?? Im sorry but if I had a "50, 000 $" dog no way am I letting a newbie take a bite from him. God forbid he jams my dog?!? Unless the dog isn't a hard hitter and hesitates right before he hits.... in which case is he really worth 50, 000$..... hmmmm....?

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