# Show breeders vs. working breeders, etc



## Adrian Meli (Dec 24, 2010)

So, thank you so much board for all of your help thus far. I am continuing doing work on breeders and I had a question I thought the GSD enthusiasts would be better at answering than just googling it. I have come across many show breeders as well as breeders that train police dogs, protection dogs, etc. and who tend to have 20 dogs "for sale" vs. the breeders selling puppies. So, a couple of questions:

Is it clear that the breeders that "sell" police dogs and the like are in it for the money and should be avoided or is it the opposite? I am not presupposing an answer as I don't know the answer but just want to make sure I know what I am doing. I guess my general question is should a breeder who breeds and trains lots of these police dogs produce better and healthier dogs because there would theoretically be less in-breeding or is it the case that since the show breeders choose mates very carefully that they select for better dispostions, etc. Is there a general sense that these working dogs breeders that produce lots of dogs are akin to a puppy mill or are they supported by the GSD lovers on this site?

Thank you again for all of your help-just trying to be as thoughtful as possible. Hope everyone had a great holiday weekend. - Adrian Meli


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think regardless of the lines, if a breeder is putting up information about what the dogs they have produced have been trained for and are actively participating in, you can get a better picture of their lines. If they are just selling dogs, saying that can be trained in certain venues, then I would question their opinion for the reason they say it is so.

The websites that have several dogs for sale are usually brokers(and you should do research about what lines they are selling before even thinking of purchasing), not breeders. 
If they have 20+ dogs for sale and _are _breeding them, then I would question why they breed so many at once. 
I'd personally rather go with a smaller "hobby" breeder who only has a litter or two on the ground at one time.
Look at the pedigrees of the dogs for sale~ either there is line breeding or not. 
Whether or not they train them as "police dogs" wouldn't sell me on purchasing from them.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Dogs are an expensive hobby. Breeding can be a big money pit....making money on breeding is an accounting exercise! Direct vs indirect costs....factor in a truck that gets 240K miles in less than 8 years training dogs, and gas to do that - dogs are a big money pit! "Making money" breeding is not the goal of a serious breed fancier....

there are many gorgeous websites with lists of many many breeding females, litters, stud dogs, older dogs etc.....look carefully - commercial business???? more than likely....

"in breeding" or line breeding is a tool in planning breedings....nothing more or less - knowlegeable breeders learn what factors are reputed to come from popular dogs - good and bad - and use this knowledge, balancing other aspects of the pedigree to temper/counter/enhance/diminish characteristics....analyzing the risks and desirable qualities in a litter.....pedigree tells you the ideals of what can happen in the litter....seeing dogs with similar pedigrees, family members, etc gives you more info on what to expect....big commercial places breed for "names" - their ads listing impressive numbers of BSP dogs - but there is often no discernible continuity in the 'big picture" 

Every breeder has priorities in their program....whether it be 'sidegait', 'color' , 'anatomy', or 'drive' 'hardness' etc.....you need to spend time learning what the breeder you buy a pup from actually understands about the litter you are considering....also, be aware that many many breeders will have lots of fans - many of whom do not know anything about the breeder other than admiring many puppy photos or knowing a person with a pet dog from the breeder (or having one)....when getting a reference, explore the reasons the giver admires that breeder....

Good luck!

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Are you looking for a show dog, or a police dog? I guess more important that what *we* think is what type of dog *you* are looking for. I would not put a lot of weight on a web site as far as making assumptions about how many dogs are being bred and sold. Some great hobby breeders have no web site, some crappy breeders pay for the best web sites, some breeders have more dogs than on a web site, some less. Whatever type of dog you are looking for, if you are interested in a breeder they should be able to show you dogs with the achievements you are interested in. For example if I was looking for a show dog I'd be looking at breeders that actively SHOW their dogs (not just selling dogs on a web site based on "champion" dogs 3+ generations back in the pedigree). I would go to dog shows, note what dogs I liked, and talk to those owners/breeders. Likewise if I'm looking for a Schutzhund dog I go to trials, keep track of the dogs I like, and research those lines and breeders. Most breeders do not only breed dogs in their kennel. Hobby breeders will usually have a few females and breed them to outside studs. More dogs is not necessarily better breeding.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

There are 'responsible' breeders breeding ALL the different lines of GSD's so truthfully reading up and knowing what to look for is key. Make sure you've read all the links on http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I personally don't see anything wrong with selling dogs to make money. I think the issue is people selling dogs for profit and they dogs are kept in horrible conditions, don't take proper care of them, etc.

There is nothing wrong with having and breeding dogs as a business. Some breeders just choose to sell and get by as a second income and others make a living from it. Neither should be looked down upon. Look at the dogs and see how they are is what matters the most.


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## jasonGSD01 (Feb 26, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> There is nothing wrong with having and breeding dogs as a business. Some breeders just choose to sell and get by as a second income and others make a living from it. Neither should be looked down upon. Look at the dogs and see how they are is what matters the most.


 
I agree but also but, the breeders that are doing it for the money I doubt care about trying to improve what a GSD stands for or breed to the standards.


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

I think the responsible breeder article is good for everyone to read. Sometimes we get so excited about seeing puppies that we forget to ask important questions!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I agree but also but, the breeders that are doing it for the money I doubt care about trying to improve what a GSD stands for or breed to the standards.


IMO, that statement is valid only if the sole purpose to the breeding program is making money. Many financially successful people are deservedly proud of the quality & results of their work whether that work is art, medicine, law, food or breeding.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I would read Wolfstraum's answer two or three times and really understand what Lee wrote. I think she really explains it well.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

jasonGSD01 said:


> I agree but also but, the breeders that are doing it for the money I doubt care about trying to improve what a GSD stands for or breed to the standards.


I certainly understand your point.

I don't think there are many breeders that get rich off of breeding dogs. I say you look for those that ahve a good rep and sure they may sell a lot of dogs but they also know the dogs that they sell as they are familiar with the lines, parents, etc.

It takes a lot of time & money to raise puppies/dogs. Dealing with buyers alone is enough to make some want to kill themselves.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

RubyTuesday said:


> IMO, that statement is valid only if the sole purpose to the breeding program is making money. Many financially successful people are deservedly proud of the quality & results of their work whether that work is art, medicine, law, food or breeding.


Well put!


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## Dyan (Jan 24, 2011)

I am sorry, but it is just not fair to generalize about this topic. 

Top breeders will make money but they spend most of it to import the best to improve their stock and help others by offering outstanding dogs for sale or at stud and making sure the dogs are kept in ideal situations with the best of health care and food. Truly the only ones that make money at breeding/exploiting the German Shepherd is the back yard breeder,the puppy mills and the occasional breeder. For every top breeder who may or may not make money I bet there are 100 or more of the bad kind that does.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that with both show and working line breeders, you will find breeders who are mating dogs with respect to pedigree, and what the individual dogs bring to the equation, which effects their temperament, working ability, conformation, etc.

I am afraid that in both lines you will find people who are putting together dogs by who is available, and without much thought or attention to what they produce. 

You really cannot put blanket statements on either type of breeder. 

People who have a stable of saleable dogs, well, they would have to be pretty outstanding and probably be training for something specific that I was looking for, for me to go ahead that way. I mean, I think that it is possible for someone to raise and train 15 to 20 dogs as a full-time endeavor, if that was their passion, and they could produce those dogs for a specific purpose, but I would have to be sold on them. 

Small individual breeders with just one or two litters of puppies per year can be just as bad as large scale breeders. 

I think that there really are no shortcuts when it comes to determining whether a breeder is someone you want to work with or not.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> I think that there really are no shortcuts when it comes to determining whether a breeder is someone you want to work with or not.


I think this bears repeating. You can't tell from a website, and other people's recommendations will only take you so far. You have to get out there and meet people and dogs.


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