# Breeder Issue/Questions



## Texas_Eva (Apr 10, 2011)

First let me say had I known then what I know now I would have been on this site long before selecting my pup. My pup was bought from a small breeder that is very involved in the dogs they sell but they do have their issues. They are somewhere in the middle of a good breeder and a BYB (according to the description's on another page on this forum). I have no regrets with my pup, nor the price. But some of the advice since day one has been questionable so I'm coming to the best source I know of, you all.:help:

For example the latest issue is I was told to end all bitework training with ** name removed by Admin** a well regarded K9 Working Dog/Protection trainer here in Dallas. The reason the breeder said I should do this is the pup is 3 months old, and shouldn't be "training" until at least 6 months. I was recommend to ** Name removed by Admin** and his program by members of this site. She also said because of price she didn't think he was a good trainer. She's also told me other small details that don't seem correct about other tiny things, not that they are important to me. Is what the breeder said correct? or is teaching my 3 month old pup to enjoy bite-work and play with a ragtoy twice a week truly too much? At what point, and how much, do i distance myself from this breeder? They are sweet people, who love dogs...but with always getting different or confusing information is too much.

The other major issue/information confusion was her telling me that if I wanted to do shutzhund with my female I COULD NOT get her fixed because you can't fix show dogs. This seems contrary to other things I've heard. What is the truth in this situation?

I'll be getting my puppy papers soon also, what information will this include? What is the next step I should take from this? and how far back should I go in pedigree info? I don't plan to breed Eva, but since she seems to come from quite a top notch line, and she will be a member of my family for years to come, likely will see the birth of my children in years in the future and will be the dog my kids grow up with, as well as my first shepherd shes an important part of my family so I'd like to know as much about her as I can, and make sure she finds her place on the pedigree website.

Thanks for comments and answers. I always appreciate everyone's feedback so much. You guys honestly keep me from going insane as a puppy parent.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

what kind of training are you actually doing? working on obedience, to enjoy the ragtoy, teaching basics like that are fine for a young pup. You don't want to push them really hard or over-extend them, but you don't need to let her lay around the house until she is 6 months old either. I don't know the trainer that you are using, but if you like the work they do, the price is right for you, and you trust them, I would go for it. Most people who don't do Schutzhund have no idea what is needed as a foundation. 
As far as having her spayed, I don't know of any requirement to keep a Schutzhund dog intact. They allow all breeds and mixes to take part. Many breeders do use it as a means of evaluating potential breeding dogs, but it's not like the confirmation ring where the sole purpose is breeding.'

I'm sure that someone more knowledgeable will come along


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm not sure about the spaying part regardin schutzhund either.

I would go with your gut, if your happy with your trainer stick it out..


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Schutzhund in the ideal sense is a breeding test. That is what it was developed to evaluate. As time progressed, it has become as much a competitive sport as a breeding test. A title is a criteria to breed your dog under SV rules. 

All sorts of dogs train and compete in the sport. Spayed, neutered, mixes, Dobes, Rotts, Malinois', and I have even known of a Lab who got SchH3! Spaying your dog does not preclude her and you from training and gaining a title.

I generally do flirt pole/rag work wtih baby puppies. Even before 8 weeks old, they chase a rag on a flirt pole - there is nothing wrong with this - it helps you see what the pups drives are like. You have to be careful from 4 to 6 months as puppies teeth during this time, and it is risky to have teeth pulled out via the rag on some pups...on some, it is an aid to get a loose tooth to come out when they are intense in the play and obviously hard enough to not have that little pang of pain loosing the tooth mark their psyche.

Good luck with your pup!

Lee


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I started my pup's SchH training at 11 weeks. She was started on the obedience, tracking, and bitework with a rag. Playing with your pup with the rag helps to build the drive needed for bitework.
As far as getting your dog fixed, you can still compete in SchH. I have seen spayed, neutered, mixes, and even cattle dogs  out doing the training.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

The trainer you mentioned, isn't he more into PSA than Schutzhund? And do you guys work on basic obedience?


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

That's just bs. Even in talking the DFW SchH club, they like to start the puppies early. That breeder doesn't sound very confident about the ability of her dogs.

For me, PSA is way more fun and challenging than SchH, that's just me.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

In your breeder's defense, they never told you they were raising Schutzhund / personal protection dogs. From what you say, it sounds like they're raising service dogs. You're going to a basketball coach for football advice. They might be very nice people who love their dogs and know a lot about raising service animals, but don't know what they're talking about in regards to PSA/SchH/PP. 

On her papers, you might just get a sheet with her name, her AKC number, and her parents' name and their AKC numbers. Or you might get a 3 generation pedigree. The pedigree costs more but some breeders spring for it or you might have ordered it when you were filling out your paperwork. 

If you've created a logon at pedigree database, getting her in there should be easy if her parents or grandparents are already in the system.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

> She also said because of price she didn't think he was a good trainer


So because he doesn't charge through the roof he's not good? Has she seen him training? I bet not.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Unless the contract stipulates how/where/when to train or the dog is co-owned, I do not see the issue. You are free to train where and when you please. The breeder may or may not agree, it's not the end of the world.

As for the papers, you don't have to do anything. You can add her to the database right now if you want, that is a totally separate site, anyone can add any dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> I generally do flirt pole/rag work wtih baby puppies. Even before 8 weeks old, they chase a rag on a flirt pole - there is nothing wrong with this - it helps you see what the pups drives are like. You have to be careful from 4 to 6 months as puppies teeth during this time, and it is risky to have teeth pulled out via the rag on some pups...on some, it is an aid to get a loose tooth to come out when they are intense in the play and obviously hard enough to not have that little pang of pain loosing the tooth mark their psyche.
> 
> Good luck with your pup!
> 
> Lee


This is what I do too, but Schutzhund is a big world and starting early or waiting is a matter of long threads in this same forum. There are different opinions and it doesn't necessarily means I am right and your breeder is wrong. I myself did less rag work with my current pup than what I did with my previous one and if I knew better then I would have done twice as much with the Border collie I owned some years ago.

For show the dog can't be fixed, that is true, but you can compete in SchH with a fixed dog, though you may want to wait until she is fully mature, there are other open threads about the subject in the forums.

Still I don't see where there are major issues, I see the breeder has different opinions than you and may have confused information but nothing else, only the kind that brings good discussion around a beer, not the kind to end a friendship.


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## Texas_Eva (Apr 10, 2011)

Thank you everyone for your answers. It seem's it was a true break down in communication and I figure the breeder was thinking Shutzhund was more of an issue because of the showing/ breeding aspects which I want no parts of.

As for training, I love my trainer, he has a great ability with the dogs and is great to be around. And yes, he is more PSA than Shutzhund.

Thanks again everyone for commenting. I was never angry at the breeder, I applaud her for being involved and lending advice. I just want it to be correct advice when I seek it.


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## Gg’sdaddy (Feb 7, 2021)

Texas_Eva said:


> First let me say had I known then what I know now I would have been on this site long before selecting my pup. My pup was bought from a small breeder that is very involved in the dogs they sell but they do have their issues. They are somewhere in the middle of a good breeder and a BYB (according to the description's on another page on this forum). I have no regrets with my pup, nor the price. But some of the advice since day one has been questionable so I'm coming to the best source I know of, you all.:help:
> 
> For example the latest issue is I was told to end all bitework training with ** name removed by Admin** a well regarded K9 Working Dog/Protection trainer here in Dallas. The reason the breeder said I should do this is the pup is 3 months old, and shouldn't be "training" until at least 6 months. I was recommend to ** Name removed by Admin** and his program by members of this site. She also said because of price she didn't think he was a good trainer. She's also told me other small details that don't seem correct about other tiny things, not that they are important to me. Is what the breeder said correct? or is teaching my 3 month old pup to enjoy bite-work and play with a ragtoy twice a week truly too much? At what point, and how much, do i distance myself from this breeder? They are sweet people, who love dogs...but with always getting different or confusing information is too much.
> 
> ...


Bite work and schutzund training and showing and a family pet... that’s one very tall order?
I’ve had 9 German shepherds over 50 years and to me the most important thing about mine were they were all FAMILY members....
You can play with your puppy all day with tug toys just be sure not to let her get to aggressive( unless that’s what you’re after?)
I didn’t start leash training ( pincher collar) with my latest female until she was 1 year old but training began day one ... games... teaching her to sit and down using treats( kibble) there’s NEVER screaming ... shepherds are very smart and learn very quickly, they also learn to manipulate us as quickly ( mine knocks at the door when she wants out... lol)
They do have a show category here ( Canada) for fixed dogs... shows are mainly to add status to a breeders dogs so they can justify the high cost?
Breeding is a lot of work ... we had a litter of pups when I was 9 and it was an experience I’ll NEVER forget so I’d recommend it if you have children that are old enough to appreciate it
Be forewarned though... raising children with a dog( especially a German shepherd) is going to spoil them and they’ll always want to have a dog ... until my latest dog the longest I’d been without one had been ten days.... I just waited three months for this one and could not believe how sad that time was for me.... 
enjoy your new dog


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

this thread is almost ten years old....


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