# My Dog attacked other small dog any help is valued!!



## Finn1234 (Aug 14, 2021)

I need some help with my one year old German shepherd female.

We have three dogs:

Jackapoo - 9 years old - female neutered 

Toy Poodle - 7 years old - female entire 

GSD - 13 months - female entire - first season 5/6 weeks ago due to be neutered end October

My mum is looking after a friends entire male 11 month old toy poodle for a couple of weeks whilst they are away.

Last Saturday morning, the GSD had an upset tummy, we starved her until Sunday morning. On Sunday morning my mum was up early and gave the poodle and Jackapoo some left over pizza, the GSD was in another room. My Mum put a plate down with some bbq sauce on, the jackapoo was licking the plate and the GSD ran into the kitchen, the Jackapoo jumped away from the plate. 

They were around 5 feet away from each other, the GSD lifted her head up, looking at the Jackapoo, they stared for a couple of seconds, neither making a noise. My mum was watching and was about to remind them to be nice when the GSD launched at the Jackapoo, there was no warning at all.

My mum was screaming at them to stop, the GSD had the Jackapoo by the throat, my mum tried to make the GSD let go, but she wouldn’t, so she put her hands in the GSD’s mouth and prised her jaws open, the Jackapoo dropped to the ground and my mum took the GSD by the scruff and marched her into the hall. She showed no aggression at all to my mum.

When my mum returned to the kitchen, the Jackapoo was bleeding from her neck, she had an open wound on the underside of her neck and several smaller abrasions at the back of her neck and one of her legs. She can’t bark properly and is still recovering.

On the advice of a behaviourist we removed all toys from the house and are feeding all separately. We are not allowing the GSD and the Jackapoo alone. 

We started to reintroduce them a couple of days ago, the GSD is still a little dominant with the Jackapoo, but not aggressive, until today.

The Jackapoo was sat on a stool, she lightly growled at the guest male toy poodle.

The GSD looked up, walked calmly to the Jackapoo, sniffed her, looked again and then full on attacked her, there was no growl, no snap, no warning.

Luckily I was there with my mum, we both ran over and tried to release the Jackapoo, but the GSD would not let go, we both had to open her jaws to get the Jackapoo out.

My brother and I had to hold the GSD down as she kept trying to go back for more.

The Jackapoo doesn’t seem to have any damage this time, but is obviously very shaken.

The two of them have had a couple of fights previously, but not like this, it’s been more of a bark in the face kind of thing.

Thank you for any advice


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

There's obviously been some animosity between them for some time, barking and staring each other down. The warning signs are often body language and glances at each other before a growl or lunge.If you aren't able to "read" your dogs and head off trouble before it starts they need to be kept apart always.An experienced trainer could help you.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

I'd quit feeding them junk so they are not hungry and bickering over food. (pizza and barbecue - really?) And it sound like too many dogs, especially smaller ones. And I'd return the toys, with nothing to play with they are looking for something to satisfy that urge to chew. Dogs don't know what's toy and what's not. Obviously people shoes and recycling aren't toys but you'll never convince Duke of that. Sounds like you have too many dogs that need more exercise.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

My advice is to keep them separate at all times.
Once females start fighting, it never stops and it just gets worse.
You have way too many females together, and the GSD is big and strong enough to kill the jackapoo.


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## Clipper (May 7, 2021)

Let me chime in on separating the dogs, hopefully it will never happen ago though.
It is best to grab the shepherd's hind legs and lift them off the ground...that should cause the GSD to release the little dog. 
When I was volunteering at a kennel where some of our rescue dogs were boarded, a hundred pound pit bull who was there on a court order, got loose. He grabbed one of our pups by the neck ,and she was helpless. I kicked it with my hiking boots in the face, neck, then stomach, but he did not let go. Fortunately another volunteer picked up his rear legs and he released our pup. She was rushed to the Vet and healed up in a few days.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

That is exactly what I was thinking, grab hind legs and lift.
Hopefully this maneuver will never be needed.
You are also lucky that after you pried open her jaws, your GSD didn’t turn on your mom or you.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I second, too many females (the dogs) in one household and your GSD is fully maturing, just out of heat, previous disagreements/fights etc. The next one will like end in a dead dog. And there will be a next one; keep them separate.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

A house full of female dogs, I’m pretty sure I’ve read on this site multiple times. “Bitches mean stitches”


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## Zeppy (Aug 1, 2021)

Finn1234 said:


> there was no warning at all.


the stare down and the food was a good indicator here.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

And I would avoid feeding pizza and barbecue sauce to the dogs.
They are not designed to process sugar, and this has zero nutritional value. Maybe feed blueberries if you want to give them a treat.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

My german shepherd got attacked 2 weeks ago today by an off leash dog. The vet bills for my dog have passed $1500, he has a fourth vet appointment tomorrow, and may need more work done under anaesthesia. He's been in pain since the attack, on pain meds, still on antibiotics, and he's permanently scarred. Please, you need to develop strategies to keep your dogs safe.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

The stare down was the warning for the first attack and your mom did realize it as you said she was just about to tell the dogs to be nice. The second attack there was a warning as well only that time the Jackapoo gave it. It was the growl. The jackapoo was warning off the GSD for being too close and basically saying back off or bring it on. The GSD decided to bring it. 
For the safety of all, animal and human, the GSD and jackapoo should never ever be allowed to be together again. Once the fighting starts it will not stop. You have the following choices: Crate and rotate the dogs for their lives together or rehome your GSD to a home with no small animals or possibly no other animals at all. 
Your behaviorist and a good trainer can help with training and show you how to mitigate risks going forward but IMHO if they tell you that they can get the two dogs together again safely in the future they are more than likely to be proven wrong with a disastrous outcome for your jackapoo. 
I'm sorry you are having these issues. Good luck!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Dunkirk said:


> My german shepherd got attacked 2 weeks ago today by an off leash dog. The vet bills for my dog have passed $1500, he has a fourth vet appointment tomorrow, and may need more work done under anaesthesia. He's been in pain since the attack, on pain meds, still on antibiotics, and he's permanently scarred. Please, you need to develop strategies to keep your dogs safe.


So sorry that happened to your dog. HUGS!


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

Hey - I am Finn’s Mum.

thank you for your reply, this is possibly the most accurate representation of how I feel.

When the Jackapoo growled in the second incident, it was to one of the other dogs. She growled because she’s still reeling and damaged from the first incident and is nervous and sore.

The GSD walked over calmly, sniffed the Jackapoo and then lunged.

I personally think it’s some sort of pack/dominance/hierarchy thing, I think yesterday the GSD was telling the Jackapoo to wind her neck in and she’s not in a position to growl at anyone.

The GSD was very calm and measured as she approached the Jackapoo, who remained submissive, then the GSD attacked.

I can’t help feeling that’s it’s no coincidence that the GSD had her first season 5/6 weeks ago, the Jackapoo is 9 and has always been the dominant dog since my golden retriever passed away 3 years ago.




Springbrz said:


> The stare down was the warning for the first attack and your mom did realize it as you said she was just about to tell the dogs to be nice. The second attack there was a warning as well only that time the Jackapoo gave it. It was the growl. The jackapoo was warning off the GSD for being too close and basically saying back off or bring it on. The GSD decided to bring it.
> For the safety of all, animal and human, the GSD and jackapoo should never ever be allowed to be together again. Once the fighting starts it will not stop. You have the following choices: Crate and rotate the dogs for their lives together or rehome your GSD to a home with no small animals or possibly no other animals at all.
> Your behaviorist and a good trainer can help with training and show you how to mitigate risks going forward but IMHO if they tell you that they can get the two dogs together again safely in the future they are more than likely to be proven wrong with a disastrous outcome for your jackapoo.
> I'm sorry you are having these issues. Good luck!


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

Finn’s mum again!

I’ve come downstairs this morning and witnessed the toy poodle sniff the Jackapoo’s bottom and growl at her.

I have tried to have a look at the Jackapoo’s bottom to see if there is a problem, but she’s guarding herself and shaking when I try.

I am going to take her to the vet tomorrow, but I’m wondering if the GSD could be attacking her because there is something wrong with her?


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Please just listen and separate your dogs. This won't end well. It's not up to your GSD to discipline the other dogs, that's up to you.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Might be an infection from the GSD’s canine puncturing the skin.

The GSD attacked because that is what bitches do.

Please research the endless threads on this forum about female on female aggression.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

The dog’s are separated - obviously.

I’m not and haven’t suggested it’s up to the GSD to discipline the other dogs, I have suggested that I think that’s what she’s doing.

Thank you for your reply.




ksotto333 said:


> Please just listen and separate your dogs. This won't end well. It's not up to your GSD to discipline the other dogs, that's up to you.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Bananaberri said:


> The dog’s are separated - obviously.
> 
> I’m not and haven’t suggested it’s up to the GSD to discipline the other dogs, I have suggested that I think that’s what she’s doing.
> 
> Thank you for your reply.


Since there were 2 attacks I didn't know if they had been separated.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

We were told by the behaviourist to not leave them alone together, we reintroduced them slowly 4 days after the first incident, which went well.

We didn’t leave them alone at all after that reintroduction, the second incident happened 6 days after the first one and both my 17yo son and myself were in the room with them.

They will be completely separate now until the dog psychologist has actually come in and assessed the situation and given us advice on how to move forward.

Thanks again for your input, you’ve all been very kind to take time to respond, it’s a very upsetting, worrying and distressing time, we love our dogs very much. 




ksotto333 said:


> Since there were 2 attacks I didn't know if they had been separated.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Do not be surprised if “reintroduction” doesn’t work.
Once bitch fights start, they only get worse, and being in the room with them won’t help, because you will never be faster than dogs.
It’s not about not letting them be alone together, it is about not letting them BE together, regardless of where the humans are.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

Yes, they won’t be together at all now, the GSD won’t be with any other dogs until we have it bottomed out by the dog psychologist.

She’s always with someone, but not with the whole family.




Sunflowers said:


> Do not be surprised if “reintroduction” doesn’t work.
> Once bitch fights start, they only get worse, and being in the room with them won’t help, because you will never be faster than dogs.
> It’s not about not letting them be alone together, it is about not letting them BE together, regardless of where the humans are.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The combination of dogs is to blame, not one of the dogs. I would rehome the GSD if you desire peace and harmony in your house without the trouble of crate and rotate. The behaviorist is not well educated as he has suggested to reintroduce them. He should know that bitches don't forgive or forget. Save your money and separate them.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

Is it okay to have 3 dogs?

I’ve always had 3 female dogs, my last combination was Golden Retriever, Jackapoo and Toy Poodle and they were fine?


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

The problem is that you introduced a female GSD into the mix. There is no problem with having 3 or more dogs, but female GSD's are not always tolerant of other females. Some do fine, others don't and never will. 

Once they start down that path, they won't go back. The only way to keep the small dogs safe is to keep them apart at all times from now on. No exceptions, ever.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

Thank you for explaining.

We sought a lot of advice prior to adding her to the house, no one mentioned this😩


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Bananaberri said:


> Is it okay to have 3 dogs?
> 
> I’ve always had 3 female dogs, my last combination was Golden Retriever, Jackapoo and Toy Poodle and they were fine?


certain breeds can be prone to same sex aggression, gsd are one of them.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

I’m so upset - not one person ever mentioned this, we chose the breeder when the mum was still pregnant and sought so much advice from relevant groups and breeders, breeders who were literally throwing puppies at us.


Fodder said:


> certain breeds can be prone to same sex aggression, gsd are one of them.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Same sex aggression is fairly common in GSD. It can be managed by someone who does a lot of no-nonsense training, keeps the dogs separate when not directly supervising, and is experienced and willing to use meaningful punishment. That is a rare person.

Dogs being dogs happens. Have a break stick readily available if you are going to take chances and allow them together. One shake, and the little dog's back could be broken and she'd be dead. Don't take any more chances. You are not prepared to handled bitch-bitch aggression. You or your Mom could be badly hurt as well, breaking up a fight. Separate or rehome.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A childhood friend of mine had a mother -daughter combo of miniature poodles. One day they came home and the young dog had killed her mother. I know this from first hand.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

I am taking both the GSD and the Jackapoo to the vet this week to rule out any other cause, then will have to make a decision.

It’s just too sad.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

PS: don't expect that the spay surgery will help the issue so don't have your hopes to high on that. Instead it could make it much worse when her estrogen levels are eliminated. My Malinois in the past became dog aggressive shortly after her complete spay surgery.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

This is just getting worse 😭


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow. This is 100% human error.

1. Your GSD was throwing body language signs out left and right. Bitches make Stitches is a very real thing. An attack with no sound is serious business.
2. After the 1st attack, you tried to introduce them again. First, it takes like 30 days for the hormones to come down after a fight so their brains and body are screaming "let's do it again!". So stop. Keep them seperate. 
3. Your GSD was HUNGRY and food was put down freely. Then she came in, took over and was guarding the food.

Solid rules, obedience and structure is your path forward. Not trying to get them to make friends.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bananaberri said:


> This is just getting worse 😭


Yup. And this is exactly the reason people need to think before they add animals. To prevent just this sort of heartbreak. Bitches fight for keeps.
I will also add that there is a HUGE difference in the dynamics of two dogs versus three. Based on what you have said your household does not possess the experience, or the desire, to make this ever work.
Your words


Bananaberri said:


> We were told by the behaviourist to not leave them alone together, we reintroduced them slowly 4 days after the first incident, which went well.





Bananaberri said:


> They will be completely separate now until the dog psychologist has actually come in and assessed the situation and given us advice on how to move forward.


There is not going to be an "until". You were told to separate them and you decided to reintroduce. You don't really buy into the separation idea, and this isn't a game.
So I will ask, how will you feel about your GSD after she kills your other dog? Can you still live with her and give her a good home?


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

To be clear, the psychologist told me not to leave them alone unsupervised, she said we could reintroduce slowly and with supervision, which is what I did. I followed expert professional and experienced advice.

I’m aware that the first incident was completely my fault, and have admitted that both in the description of what happened and also to the psychologists, she was hungry and I handled it badly and I bitterly regret that.

I completely buy into seperation and I’m irked by the need of some on this forum to pick parts of my text to justify their own pre judged opinion of my situation, I’m here asking for help, not for an agressive response from a pack.

As I said in an earlier reply, we as a family researched bringing in a female GSD into our family extensively, we sought opinion from breeders and forums, none of these issues were ever mentioned to us. I stand by the fact that we did our due diligence, but here we are.

I’m wondering if those who have strong opinions on my error have never made a mistake.

I am desperately trying to find a way forward, I’m sad that some in a forum dedicated to support the breed cannot find their way to be kind and helpful in a situation that is very distressing, for both us as a family and the GSD concerned.





Sabis mom said:


> Yup. And this is exactly the reason people need to think before they add animals. To prevent just this sort of heartbreak. Bitches fight for keeps.
> I will also add that there is a HUGE difference in the dynamics of two dogs versus three. Based on what you have said your household does not possess the experience, or the desire, to make this ever work.
> Your words
> 
> ...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Having more then one or two dogs animosity is bound to happen it’s more common in same sex. Male or female. Neither forget. Boundaries and corrections are a must to keep all in line. It helps to keep themselves in check if something were to arise. I always crate my little guy when I go out just because I know things can happen when they get excited at the door and if not home and the size difference it not a second thought. If at the door I’m always picking the little guy up. They all know spot or place. My little guy chooses to sleep in his crate if not on the couch keeping someone warm. Dogs get jealous, I notice my two males get their noses out of joint at times of each other. Skanky looks at each other are corrected right away- gsd are super expressive.

Keeping the little dogs toys away as he resource guards them from the big dogs. feeding them separate avoids any conflict. When food drops on the floor and they are well behaved they all get a nice big piece of food as a reward. I have done this since they were pups. They know when a piece of food hits the ground and someone gobbles it up they all get a big piece of food. This avoids any conflict. When my two gsds female and male play I make sure I can stop it for practice. I know I have to be really really really loud to stop and squabbles and try to head that off before it starts. There are a lot of people who crate and rotate dogs on a normal basis you do have options. It depends on the activity of your home and if you can do this.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bananaberri said:


> To be clear, the psychologist told me not to leave them alone unsupervised, she said we could reintroduce slowly and with supervision, which is what I did. I followed expert professional and experienced advice.
> 
> I’m aware that the first incident was completely my fault, and have admitted that both in the description of what happened and also to the psychologists, she was hungry and I handled it badly and I bitterly regret that.
> 
> ...


I don't even know what a dog psychologist is!!! You need a trainer. And you need to stop thinking in terms of reintroduction and start planning to keep them separate. 
I have a really hard time buying that a responsible breeder didn't mention same sex aggression. I can easily buy that breeders throwing puppies at you would fail to mention it.
Of course I'm not perfect and of course I have made mistakes. What I am trying to get through to you is that this is serious!


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

Do you not think that I don’t know this is serious, I held my dog that I’ve had for 9 years as her neck bled all over me and my kitchen floor, I held her whilst she shook with blood soaked all over me as a vet emergency treated her.

I prised the jaws open of a large and powerful dog so that I could save her life - not once but twice.

I know how serious it is, which is why I am here.

I am asking for advice and compassion, not judgement.

I am NOT thinking of reintroduction, I am thinking how I can make this work without discarding a dog I made a commitment to.

If I have to rehome, I will, but I will absolutely explore everything other avenue first.

Believe what you like, but the breeder knew me, my family, my home and my dogs for 14 weeks prior to giving me a puppy, I had no idea this was or could be an issue.



Sabis mom said:


> I don't even know what a dog psychologist is!!! You need a trainer. And you need to stop thinking in terms of reintroduction and start planning to keep them separate.
> I have a really hard time buying that a responsible breeder didn't mention same sex aggression. I can easily buy that breeders throwing puppies at you would fail to mention it.
> Of course I'm not perfect and of course I have made mistakes. What I am trying to get through to you is that this is serious!


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

Thank you Jenny 




Jenny720 said:


> Having more then one or two dogs animosity is bound to happen it’s more common in same sex. Male or female. Neither forget. Boundaries and corrections are a must to keep all in line. It helps to keep themselves in check if something were to arise. I always crate my little guy when I go out just because I know things can happen when they get excited at the door and if not home and the size difference it not a second thought. If at the door I’m always picking the little guy up. They all know spot or place. My little guy chooses to sleep in his crate if not on the couch keeping someone warm. Dogs get jealous, I notice my two males get their noses out of joint at times of each other. Skanky looks at each other are corrected right away- gsd are super expressive.
> 
> Keeping the little dogs toys away as he resource guards them from the big dogs. feeding them separate avoids any conflict. When food drops on the floor and they are well behaved they all get a nice big piece of food as a reward. I have done this since they were pups. They know when a piece of food hits the ground and someone gobbles it up they all get a big piece of food. This avoids any conflict. When my two gsds female and male play I make sure I can stop it for practice. I know I have to be really really really loud to stop and squabbles and try to head that off before it starts. There are a lot of people who crate and rotate dogs on a normal basis you do have options. It depends on the activity of your home and if you can do this.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A reputable German Shepherd trainer would be important to come into your home.


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## Finn1234 (Aug 14, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> I don't even know what a dog psychologist is!!!


a psychologist for dogs perhaps?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You need a trainer who specializes in aggression and knows German Shepherds. No one is trying to be judgmental or rude. We know how difficult this is for you. We are frustrated that people come in here after they have a problem asking for help rather than before they buy a dog. If it was me, I would rehome the younger dog and not replace her until the older dogs have passed. Most of us could handle or avoid the situation you have, but we have 10, 20, 30 years experience. Some of us still make mistakes. I know experienced handlers whose dogs have fought in spite of all their experience. The biggest issue with separation is what happens if they are accidentally together again. A door is pushed open, a crate door
unlatches. You have ask yourselves realistically can you keep three dogs safe?

Regarding numbers, two are easy because you have one set of interactions. When you add a third dog, you have four possible interactions, dogs 1 and 2, 1 and 3, 2 and 3, or all three together. Now that 1 and 3 are fighting, 2 might decide to go after 1 as well. That is why 3 dogs are too many for some people. You move from 1 variable to 4. For every dog you add, the number of possible interactions goes up exponentially.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

My vet recommended a specialist, I’ll chase that up tomorriw to arrange for her to come in and tell me what to do.

Tomorrow I’m going to take Ripples to the vet to make sure there is nothing wrong with her that Nacho is sensing.

I need to get Nacho to the vet this week too, the specialists won’t take on a dog that hasn’t been referred by a vet as being healthy in all other areas.




Jenny720 said:


> A reputable German Shepherd trainer would be important to come into your home.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

Thank you 




LuvShepherds said:


> You need a trainer who specializes in aggression and knows German Shepherds. No one is trying to be judgmental or rude. We know how difficult this is for you. We are frustrated that people come in here after they have a problem asking for help rather than before they buy a dog. If it was me, I would rehome the younger dog and not replace her until the older dogs have passed. Most of us could handle or avoid the situation you have, but we have 10, 20, 30 years experience. Some of us still make mistakes. I know experienced handlers whose dogs have fought in spite of all their experience. The biggest issue with separation is what happens if they are accidentally together again. A door is pushed open, a crate door
> unlatches. You have ask yourselves realistically can you keep three dogs safe?
> 
> Regarding numbers, two are easy because you have one set of interactions. When you add a third dog, you have four possible interactions, dogs 1 and 2, 1 and 3, 2 and 3, or all three together. Now that 1 and 3 are fighting, 2 might decide to go after 1 as well. That is why 3 dogs are too many for some people. You move from 1 variable to 4. For every dog you add, the number of possible interactions goes up exponentially.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bananaberri said:


> Do you not think that I don’t know this is serious, I held my dog that I’ve had for 9 years as her neck bled all over me and my kitchen floor, I held her whilst she shook with blood soaked all over me as a vet emergency treated her.
> 
> I prised the jaws open of a large and powerful dog so that I could save her life - not once but twice.
> 
> ...


I wasn't judging you. I was being straight with you. Take it or leave it. My daughter's husky just died from a broken neck when the other female never made a sound and attacked. And I told her the same thing...her dog died because of 100% human error. Sugar coating a response to you isn't warranted. This was human error and you need to be very realistic on that fact moving forward. Rehome the dog. Crate and rotate. And obedience and structure are your only path forward with her so she doesn't attack another dog. Those are your cards you are holding. So stop being defensive because you didn't like what you heard.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

I’m happy to take constructive criticism, I do not feel defensive at all, I’m here for advice, which you have now, given - albeit rather aggressively.

As I said, they are separate, we are lucky to have a very large house and garden, so we can cope until the expert comes in, observes and advises.

Thank you for replying.




Jax08 said:


> I wasn't judging you. I was being straight with you. Take it or leave it. My daughter's husky just died from a broken neck when the other female never made a sound and attacked. And I told her the same thing...her dog died because of 100% human error. Sugar coating a response to you isn't warranted. This was human error and you need to be very realistic on that fact moving forward. Rehome the dog. Crate and rotate. And obedience and structure are your only path forward with her so she doesn't attack another dog. Those are your cards you are holding. So stop being defensive because you didn't like what you heard.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Bananaberri said:


> I’m wondering if those who have strong opinions on my error have never made a mistake.


While i don’t necessarily include myself with those of strong opinions, i honestly can’t even remember if i gave one.... i’ll share... i had a 2yr old female gsd, the first on my own / as an adult. she got along with everyone, was a happy go lucky dog park type dog, had many female friends, etc etc. i didn’t factor in sex when i decided to bring home another gsd, i was simply going off of my existing dogs personality and figured a younger, smaller gsd of similar personality would be perfectly fine. i brought home Rex (female), at 8 months.... 3 nasty fights later, despite having the experience and set up to keep them separate for the time being - i was naive, and as a young renter, i wasn’t confident that i could provide a safe environment for them for the next 12+ years. to be quite frank, nor did i have the interest... so i made the choice to rehome Rex and have never ever regretted it, ever. it’s difficult, sure, but it’s also OK if that’s the decision you and your family arrive at. best of luck.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

Thank you xx




Fodder said:


> While i don’t necessarily include myself with those of strong opinions, i honestly can’t even remember if i gave one.... i’ll share... i had a 2yr old female gsd, the first on my own / as an adult. she got along with everyone, was a happy go lucky dog park type dog, had many female friends, etc etc. i didn’t factor in sex when i decided to bring home another gsd, i was simply going off of my existing dogs personality and figured a younger, smaller gsd of similar personality would be perfectly fine. i brought home Rex (female), at 8 months.... 3 nasty fights later, despite having the experience and set up to keep them separate for the time being - i was naive, and as a young renter, i wasn’t confident that i could provide a safe environment for them for the next 12+ years. to be quite frank, nor did i have the interest... so i made the choice to rehome Rex and have never ever regretted it, ever. it’s difficult, sure, but it’s also OK if that’s the decision you and your family arrive at. best of luck.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

I had 2 females returned to their breeders. Both of them were mothered since 8 weeks by my Shar Pei who lived with us for 14+ years. It was an English Bulldog and a Shar Pei. The Bulldog started a couple of fights after she turned 2y.o, and was done traveling with her handler for dogs shows after finishing her Championship. The Shar Pei started attacking her at 8 months. It was the worst bloody fight. The older dog was 12. The pup was picked up by her breeder the same day. I didn’t want to take any chances! I hope you’ll never have to deal with it again.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Who are these experts and what are their credentials? Any one can call themselves an expert legally when it comes to dog trainers. Even an animal behaviorist PhD has it's own opinions. Ask for references and to check them out.
Regarding to you doing whatever: the first bite was an accident that you never foresaw. The second attack could have been prevented. "Puppies being thrown at you" was done by breeders who don't care where their pups ended up.
"It only gets worse" is true.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

At this point I have a 2 y.o GSD and a 6 1/2y.o Border Collie, both are intact females. The BC is the bossy one, the GS is the submissive one.
So far they get along great.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

I’m going with the one the vet has recommended.



wolfy dog said:


> Who are these experts and what are their credentials? Any one can call themselves an expert legally when it comes to dog trainers. Even an animal behaviorist PhD has it's own opinions. Ask for references and to check them out.
> Regarding to you doing whatever: the first bite was an accident that you never foresaw. The second attack could have been prevented. "Puppies bring thrown at you" was done by breeders who don't care where their pups ended up.
> "It only gets worse" is true.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

I just want to say, I’m sorry you are going through this. Same sex aggression sucks... a lot. I currently am crating and rotating two dogs (gsd and corgi) who will fight in certain situations. It’s been a stressful experience for sure; I’ve been bitten breaking up dog fights, I have scars on my legs where the corgi’s canines punctured, I’ve had a finger nail ripped off when the corgi grabbed my finger... it’s horrible and I will never own two females again. Luckily since we’ve been crating and rotating we haven’t had a fight in almost a year (knock on wood that I don’t jinx it). Why we got another female you may ask? Well Mia (corgi) was always fine with other dogs both male and female and lived with many different females (all gsd. This was when dad would train dogs for a breeder, the dogs would stay for 2 weeks- 4 months or more depending on what they were there for) she never had a problem with them, granted she always has been a bossy type dog, then she was spayed at 4 years but we didn’t know that the spay ended up causing aggression until Nadja came along. We thought the two would’ve been fine.... we were wrong, so wrong. Your dogs will never truly be ok with each other. Ever. Best to crate and rotate to keep everyone including people safe.


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## Ohce (Jan 24, 2021)

Jack russells are another breed known for same sex aggression and known to not back down. I suspect what may have happened was everything was okay, so long as the Jackapoo was queen or had an older dog she respected. Then GSD comes in, is okay at first, then grows up, and says 'haha nope little dog' and Jackapoo says 'haha nope young dog!'. Conflict ensues.

Rehome or always seperate are the two options I see. Even if, with training and management, I had a 95% chance an incident wouldn't reoccur, I wouldn't be willing to risk it. Personally, with such differently sized dogs - I would probably rehome. Less stressful and a better quality of life for everyone involved- all three dogs and all the humans. I suspect SSA 

I have also had mostly multiple female dogs all my life. Some breeds handle it better than others. Sporting breeds, companion breeds, and herding breeds in general tend to be okay - they were generally bred to work and live around other dogs. Terrier and 'guard' type breeds tend not to be ok.

Two stories: 

My parents had two female dogs. The older dog kept the younger dog (a GSD cross rehome) firmly under her paw for years. The younger dog started attacking the older dog as the older dog became old. My parents wanted to put her down because they worried about me (kid) getting in the middle of a dog fight. They contacted the original owners, who wanted her back. The original owners had another female dog they had gotten since giving up this first dog, only a few years younger. Within a few weeks of getting their dog back, she killed their second dog in front of their kids. All three dogs involved were spayed, so it wasn't a hormone issue, just a female dog issue. 

More recently, my mom had two small terriers. Both female. One was a rehomed terrier mix, and decided to resource guard my mom from her original dog. Lots of mild squabbling, most of it body language. I came to visit after she had had the new dog for about a month, looked at them and went 'Mom, you have a problem' and was ignored. Sure enough a few weeks later the original dog went and tried to kill the new dog 'suddenly and without warning'. When they mean it - they don't warn first. They were separated for a few days, and the next time they were together, the original dog went back in to try and kill the new dog again at the first opportunity when the other dog wasn't paying attention. One of them would have ended up dead if kept together, no question. The original dog (attempted killer) has since lived with other female dogs and been 100% okay. 

I mention this not to suggest that the GSD would be okay with female dogs in another home (see the first story!), but because i would suggest you also watch the behaviour of your Jackapoo in the future. In this case, the original dog is the one who went in for the kill and looked 'guilty' but the squabble was started by the new dog and the dog that went in for the kill has since lived with several female dogs without incident. The rehomed dog went back to its original home, where it proceeded to continue her reign of terror over their male GSD who was 8-10x her size! 

I'm really sorry no one mentioned SSA to you  it's such a heartbreaking issue to encounter since it's so hard to fix. You sound like a really caring owner who wants the best for your dogs.


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## Cigar (Feb 19, 2021)

Bananaberri said:


> To be clear, the psychologist told me not to leave them alone unsupervised, she said we could reintroduce slowly and with supervision, which is what I did. I followed expert professional and experienced advice.
> 
> I’m aware that the first incident was completely my fault, and have admitted that both in the description of what happened and also to the psychologists, she was hungry and I handled it badly and I bitterly regret that.
> 
> ...


I feel for you & the situation, I can relate and I'm hoping I can offer some hope.

My Maggie May was surrendered by her 2d home for female-on-female aggression. She redirected & bit the guy trying to break it up. 
I was vetted by the shelter to be sure I had no other (esp female) dogs. They also said she needed to be a person's shadow. That fit my situation just fine, & it's been a very good match. She is not easy, but not difficult either. I've had to pay a lot of attention to her, which being a lazy type, has been good for me. 

This thread has reminded me that I have been warned, and even tho she's just about perfect here with me, I can't forget to be aware that she does have history - and when lockdown eases I will need to be alert. 

My personal opinion is that probably your GSD should find a place where she can be a bit more focused on for a period, than being one of 3 right off the bat. 
I really care about your situation & hope you will let us know how everyone is doing.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

With animals it’s always our responsibility for the their actions, the same with kids. If we only lay blame to the animal nothing gets done to fix the actual situation. No one here is perfect or saying that they are. Crap can happen to anyone. The concern over the matter is a real one and is reflected in the advise given. Keep us all posted.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I haven't seen many behaviorist or psychologists that have a good track record. Most have a lot of education without much experience. This is just my personal experience and is not indicative of the quality of said professions in general. I have taken on several dogs that these type of professionals have failed to train. I would get references, specifically asking about GSDs.

I know that some of the responses seem harsh. The reason for that is that a dog or 2 could easily lose their lives because you made some mistakes. I can drive 5 minutes to 3 GSD "breeders". I got a dog from 8 hours away and had to smuggle him into the country. Finding the right breeder is more than half the battle. IMO, a good breeder would never have placed a female pup in your home.

Yes, we all make mistakes and hopefully learn from them. You current situation will require you to change how you live with your dogs. You will need to do a lot of work and learn a lot about behavior and body language to get through this. This isn't about your dogs. It's about how you currently live with them. It's a human problem. 

I recommend you return the pup to the breeder. Then find a reputable breeder that will select a male pup for you.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Regardless of what the vet finds, the GSD has decided that it’s on, and nothing will change that. GSDs are smart and they don’t forget. Once they have decided they don’t like a dog, they won’t stop until it’s gone.
I think the “dog psychologist” does not have a clue and I would be asking for my money back, to be honest. Looks as if we know more about “dog psychology,” in that you never reintroduce females who have begun to fight, especially when one is big enough to kill the other.

If she were mine, the GSD would go where she is not stressed and where she doesn’t feel the need to attack two little female dogs.
Also it’s not fair for the two small resident dogs to have such an addition.
If you are set on getting a third dog, get a breed compatible with your two little ones.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

I’m grateful for all of your responses, even the slightly mean ones.

Its a terribly sad situation, I feel that as a family we researched as much as we could before bringing Nacho in. I’m very upset at the thought of having to rehome her, we didn’t take her on lightly, it was a life time commitment and we are all crushed at the thought of her leaving our family.

I’m speaking to our dog trainers this morning who specialise in German Shepherds and will feed bavk to you all what we do.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Have you counted the breeder?
A responsible breeder takes back dogs.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I understand and respect that you didn't take on the responsibility of a third dog lightly and your awareness that a pet is a lifelong commitment. That same commitment is also to insure that you do all you can to give all your pets a safe, stress free loving home with good training, vetting and care. Where their best interests come first as a whole. It's a hard call to make and one I see you won't take any more lightly than your decision to bring a third dog into your home. I would suggest that when you do all the vetting and information gathering you ask yourself these things. Are all our dogs happy in their environment? Are they relaxed or often or always on guard of the next aggression? Are you and your family relaxed and happy to have the pack structure your have? Are you able to love and enjoy each dog the same way as you did before knowing what you know now? Are your senior dogs thriving with the GSD in the home even with separation enforced? Is your GSD happy with it's restrictions now? 
Remove how sad or bad you feel from the equation. It's about all of the dogs quality of life. Keeping a life long commitment where everyone and every dog is miserable and stressed is far worse than committing to giving every dog and person in the home the best chance to live a peaceful, stress free, happy life.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

I have contacted the breeder, she isn’t offering to have her back, she has tried to give advice.




Sunflowers said:


> Have you counted the breeder?
> A responsible breeder takes back dogs.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

That’s too bad. Normally a responsible breeder will provide a contact with a right of refusal.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Springbrz said:


> I understand and respect that you didn't take on the responsibility of a third dog lightly and your awareness that a pet is a lifelong commitment. That same commitment is also to insure that you do all you can to give all your pets a safe, stress free loving home with good training, vetting and care. Where their best interests come first as a whole. It's a hard call to make and one I see you won't take any more lightly than your decision to bring a third dog into your home. I would suggest that when you do all the vetting and information gathering you ask yourself these things. Are all our dogs happy in their environment? Are they relaxed or often or always on guard of the next aggression? Are you and your family relaxed and happy to have the pack structure your have? Are you able to love and enjoy each dog the same way as you did before knowing what you know now? Are your senior dogs thriving with the GSD in the home even with separation enforced? Is your GSD happy with it's restrictions now?
> Remove how sad or bad you feel from the equation. It's about all of the dogs quality of life. Keeping a life long commitment where everyone and every dog is miserable and stressed is far worse than committing to giving every dog and person in the home the best chance to live a peaceful, stress free, happy life.


This should be a sticky somewhere, what a great post!
I think a lot of times people tend to anthropomorphize dogs and think that they would be betraying them or something if they rehome them.
Instead, the way to approach this is to realize that dogs live in the moment. If all of a sudden they end up in a home where the stress doesn’t happen, they will have a much better life.
It’s all about putting yourself aside and thinking clearly about what are the needs of these dogs.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Bananaberri said:


> I have contacted the breeder, she isn’t offering to have her back, she has tried to give advice.


She should be ashamed of herself, then. This is her fault in the first place.


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

I do feel like I have and I am letting her down by rehoming her.

But I also understand my responsibility to them to ensure they have the best lives they can and I have to accept that this may not be with me.




Sunflowers said:


> This should be a sticky somewhere, what a great post!
> I think a lot of times people tend to anthropomorphize dogs and think that they would be betraying them or something if they rehome them.
> Instead, the way to approach this is to realize that dogs live in the moment. If all of a sudden they end up in a home where the stress doesn’t happen, they will have a much better life.
> It’s all about putting yourself aside and thinking clearly about what are the needs of these dogs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

We all know the heartache; first the attack, then the decision on what to do. We all know you love all your dogs.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

On the contrary, rehoming a dog who was not a good fit is the kindest and most selfless thing you can do for that dog.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

I had zero regrets about returning to the breeder. My older dog was a priority. I loved her and I wanted her to have a happy life with us for whatever was left. She had a long happy life along with her daughter. Pups/young dogs usually have no problems adjusting to a new appropriate household.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

After she'd had a litter, a friend's Shiloh shepherd became aggressive towards her mini-pin. The owner was the opposite of the OP - she kept blaming everyone BUT the dog! 

The first attack resulted in multiple stitches. The second attack broke the mini-pin's leg. The third attack killed him. 😢 
Just a bit of FYI...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Was the Min Pin a female?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Was the Min Pin a female?


She said “the third attack killed him.”


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> She said “the third attack killed him.”


🥴


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## Bananaberri (Aug 14, 2021)

I haven’t blamed my dog?




Sunsilver said:


> After she'd had a litter, a friend's Shiloh shepherd became aggressive towards her mini-pin. The owner was the opposite of the OP - she kept blaming everyone BUT the dog!
> 
> The first attack resulted in multiple stitches. The second attack broke the mini-pin's leg. The third attack killed him. 😢
> Just a bit of FYI...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

You're not reading that right. She blamed ME for the first attack and another person for the second, when the relationship between the two dogs was the problem. The mini pin could be a real pain - he was very yappy, and the Shiloh didn't like that. She also refused to realize the Shiloh had developed small dog aggression. She previously went right over the fence and killed the neighbour's little white dog.

She didn't tell me about this until after the mini-pin had been killed, because she made the excuse that the dog was out in the yard with her pups, and was protecting them. Therefore, it wasn't REALLY her fault...


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## Daxs-mom (Dec 7, 2020)

Springbrz said:


> I understand and respect that you didn't take on the responsibility of a third dog lightly and your awareness that a pet is a lifelong commitment. That same commitment is also to insure that you do all you can to give all your pets a safe, stress free loving home with good training, vetting and care. Where their best interests come first as a whole. It's a hard call to make and one I see you won't take any more lightly than your decision to bring a third dog into your home. I would suggest that when you do all the vetting and information gathering you ask yourself these things. Are all our dogs happy in their environment? Are they relaxed or often or always on guard of the next aggression? Are you and your family relaxed and happy to have the pack structure your have? Are you able to love and enjoy each dog the same way as you did before knowing what you know now? Are your senior dogs thriving with the GSD in the home even with separation enforced? Is your GSD happy with it's restrictions now?
> Remove how sad or bad you feel from the equation. It's about all of the dogs quality of life. Keeping a life long commitment where everyone and every dog is miserable and stressed is far worse than committing to giving every dog and person in the home the best chance to live a peaceful, stress free, happy life.


Nothing could be truer than these thoughts! Great advice for many varied situations. Always think of the pet's well being--without emotion. 👏🏻💙👍🏻


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## BubbaBearsMomma58 (Dec 10, 2019)

Finn1234 said:


> I need some help with my one year old German shepherd female.
> 
> We have three dogs:
> 
> ...


First of all you said you starved your GS for days because of a upset tummy. Don’t you see the GS was hungry. I have a 4 year old GS that would never be aggressive. I’m not saying you did this intentionally. The GS seen your other fur baby getting food. The two growled for dominance. It wasn’t your GS fault. If your GS was mean it would of went after your mom. Please when your GS tummy is upset give him a couple tums. I do this for our baby Daisy. I pray everything works out. Please never starve your HS. It was probably so hungry is why it acted this way.


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## Daxs-mom (Dec 7, 2020)

Sunflowers said:


> On the contrary, rehoming a dog who was not a good fit is the kindest and most selfless thing you can do for that dog.


This is very true and I hope Bananaberri sees our story:
Dax was rescued from Korea (meat trade?) as a puppy almost 5 years ago to be adopted by a womsn who owned two adult male GSDs. In his first day in that home, both dogs tried to attack and kill him. So the adopter was fortunately able to rehome him quickly to the multidog home of my friend, her husband (a dog trainer who had always wanted a gsd), and their two young daughters. Unfortunately her female rat terrier and male malinois were not thrilled with this active vocal pup in their home and although there was no serious aggression in his weeks there, my friend felt the pup deserved better, also because they are a working household and he was not getting as much attention as a puppy needs early on. After the family wrestled with the challenge of giving up this adorable "little man", as he was affectionately called at times, Dax was brought to us by the mother and child with crying and broken hearts, but comfort knowing he was going to have a good life. So after  being rehomed for the third and final time, this wonderful gsd has been thriving as the only pet, completely loved and cherished by my husband and I. Happy ending for "the boy", us and even the previous family who know they did the best thing for their pup.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

BubbaBearsMomma58 said:


> First of all you said you starved your GS for days because of a upset tummy. Don’t you see the GS was hungry. I have a 4 year old GS that would never be aggressive. I’m not saying you did this intentionally. The GS seen your other fur baby getting food. The two growled for dominance. It wasn’t your GS fault. If your GS was mean it would of went after your mom. Please when your GS tummy is upset give him a couple tums. I do this for our baby Daisy. I pray everything works out. Please never starve your HS. It was probably so hungry is why it acted this way.


_starve_ may not have been the best choice of words, but fasting for at least one meal is a very common protocol for GI upset.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Fodder said:


> _starve_ may not have been the best choice of words, but fasting for at least one meal is a very common protocol for GI upset.


I agree with @Fodder 
No animal, including humans, will starve if they don’t eat for 24 or 48 hours.
Dogs were designed to gorge and fast, so a day of fasting, weekly, is done by many knowledgeable German Shepherd owners, even without stomach upset.
It’s good to give the gut a break and reset it.

When the digestive system is irritated and inflamed, it is best to not send food through it. So 24 or 48 hours is the go-to remedy.
And, no, bitch fights do not happen because of hunger. They happen because, well, bitches are bitches.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sunflowers said:


> No animal, including humans, will starve if they don’t eat for 24 or 48 hours.
> Dogs were designed to gorge and fast, so a day of fasting, weekly, is done by many knowledgeable German Shepherd owners, even without stomach upset.
> It’s good to give the gut a break and reset it.
> 
> ...


i’m well aware. @BubbaBearsMomma58 ☝🏽


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Fodder said:


> i’m well aware. @BubbaBearsMomma58 ☝🏽


I know, I was adding to your post. Edited it to clarify.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Food can definitely start the first fight, particularly table food with a hungry dog, and things can go south from there.

I regularly fast dogs for a day or 2, particularly after a gorge day.

This is a complicated thing because we don't have accurate information. The only safe thing to do is to separate the dogs until a qualified and competent trainer assesses the situation in person.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Thats how I break up dog fights. I grab one back leg, lift and twist the leg. Need to make a choice on what dog to keep and what dog to find a new home for. It wont get better.


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