# A rant... from a helper... to novice handlers



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Handlers... hold your freaking leash tight and *consistently* tight. I can't do my job if you don't do yours. Tonight I got a punch in the eye by a muzzle, and a crappy bite after crappy bite by another dog b/c the handler wouldn't just hold the leash firmly. Makes it very *very* hard to work a dog when they have 6 feet of wiggle room at the end of the leash. Nor do I like being charged and rammed by a dog b/c you let go of your lead by accident. :help: me :help: you!

Also, tonight one dog decided instead of the bark and hold we've been working on for months, he was just gonna fully on ram me in the crotchal region for reasons none of us understand. First time I wish I had a cup.

There, I'm done


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

When I first started protection work nobody explained to me why I should be a post and when I should be a post. I wasn't told when the helper is working on grip (with pulling / pressure from the harness), when the helper is reading the dog and needs to know where the edge of the leash is, etc etc etc. It was only until I was told what the purpose of these exercises were that I started to figure out when I should let go of the leash, when I should be a post, etc. 

Just saying, some of the handlers may not know what they are supposed to do and when. It always helps to maybe explain these things to them _before_ they bring the dog out. Neither the dog nor the handler is using their head while working in the beginning - everything is probably moving too fast for both. Try to explain to them, or maybe even tell them "when I say post you hold the leash, don't move, don't let the leash move, when I say give you give a little room and when I say go you let go of the leash" - or something like that, just a form of communication for the beginning - obviously you dont want the handler or dog to use these words as crutches but it might help put you both on the same page...

Also, sorry about your crutch  hurts me just thinking about it...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

That's true, but many times you are constantly telling people to be a post and they get so caught up in watching their dog that they inadvertently start moving again or better yet, holding the leash in closer and extending their arms when the dog launches like that is going to give the dog some extra oomp! More close calls or bites come from bad handlers than all the bad dogs combined.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Have seen the clueless look on many a face - many novices need to have explanations on WHAT something means...they dont come to the field knowing the venacular....they also need to watch and listen so that they learn what goes on on the field - not spend the whole time dragging their puppy around looking for admiration of same! or getting their time in and leaving to watch football!! That being said - BACK TIE !!!!!!!!! Puts it all in the helper's control!!

Lee


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sounds like you really got beat up tonite!!! I feel your rant


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Maybe you should channel Steve House's personality on for a bit, get your handlers in line! JK...
Hope your not too broken, and you let the handlers know how important their end of the leash is.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Agree on explain and if you see they are not watching, stop and explain again. If they do not get it, stop the exercise. Work with them with no dog 1st.

This is what I have seen new helpers do at a few clubs.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

yes explanation can help, but come one. Most can't handle hold the leash and don't move! How are you expecting them to grasp anything else . It makes me laugh all the times I've heard it myself and have said it to others, POST, DON"T MOVE and as soon as you start working, their feet are moving.

It would be more funny it it wasn't more dangerous.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I also think it's safer to back-tie until the handler can fully understand the concept on how to work the line during protection. That way neither the helper or the dog gets screwed over in the work because it's all in the control of the helper.

I had no idea what I was doing when I first started and no one ever explained to me how I (a 17 year old girl) was supposed to correctly post myself to hold back my 85 pound dog. Needless to say, I moved around quite a bit, because its awful difficult to not move when you're holding the leash with two hands completely extended 

The first time I was ever told otherwise was at my last club's fall trial almost a year after I had started in Schutzhund. The judge was doing some helper work after the trial had ended and I brought my dog out. He told me to be a post or he'd whip me.

Guess who got whipped.  But seriously he was the first one to explain to me a better way to hold my leash, and had me wrap around and pretty much sit on it, and it made a world of difference (obviously). Three years later, I will approach any stranger working their dog who is holding the leash incorrectly At at club, trial, etc, and I'll show them how I was told to hold the leash. If I can hold back my dog, then they can definitely hold theirs. And all the time, I'm told that they were never given that advice before. 

So just make sure you're not assuming that the handlers all know exactly what to do. It's scary enough already, being new to the sport, and a lot of people aren't being properly informed before they start.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

nobody here is allowed to leash their dog and just come on the field for protection work without some instruction


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

crackem said:


> yes explanation can help, but come one. Most can't handle hold the leash and don't move! How are you expecting them to grasp anything else . It makes me laugh all the times I've heard it myself and have said it to others, POST, DON"T MOVE and as soon as you start working, their feet are moving.
> 
> It would be more funny it it wasn't more dangerous.


Have you ever explained to them a proper way to hold a leash for protection work? Because trust me, most girls my size can't hold back an 85 pound dog, and I definitely couldn't until I was shown the proper way to "post" yourself. I used to stand there with the leash in both hands with both arms extended and I am just not strong enough to hold him that way, as are many people.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

A complaint from helpers the world over. And a legitimate one for sure. It's dangerous and it makes for bad training.

But at the same time, like everything else, "being a post" isn't something that comes naturally. Sometimes people forget or are mesmerized by watching the work and not paying attention, but very often they just don't know *how* to properly post a dog. None of us were good posts when we first started out as newbies. We had to learn. 

With poor post technique, a 50lb Mal could pull over a linebacker. And with proper post technique a 100lb granny could hold back a 150lb Rottie. So make sure your newbies aren't just told to "be a post" and constantly yelled at that "posts don't move!" but show them how to do it properly and let them practice the technique, off the field, without a dog. And if it's someone who still can't master it after lots of teaching and practice, then that's what tie out poles/trees are for.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

At our club, it is my job, or the VP's job to explain to newbies what is expected of them and how it relates to the training. (Why we want the dog to "miss" the wedge or whatever). Since most people getting started don't have their own gear, we have a 10 foot biothane line that we let them borrow. We have tied a knot in the line at a certain distance and show the person to hold the line behind their body and to hold the knot in their hand and that the hand should stay at a certain place on their body. Most people do just fine when they are given an exact thing to do. For those that seem to have trouble following the instruction, we have one of the other helpers or other handler either take the line from them or go stand with them on the field to remind them of what is expected and how to do it. Of course, the experienced handler's real reason to go out onto the field is to protect our helper! They are a valuable commodity that we don't want abused .


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> A complaint from helpers the world over. And a legitimate one for sure. It's dangerous and it makes for bad training.
> 
> But at the same time, like everything else, "being a post" isn't something that comes naturally. Sometimes people forget or are mesmerized by watching the work and not paying attention, but very often they just don't know *how* to properly post a dog. None of us were good posts when we first started out as newbies. We had to learn.
> 
> With poor post technique, a 50lb Mal could pull over a linebacker. And with proper post technique a 100lb granny could hold back a 150lb Rottie. So make sure your newbies aren't just told to "be a post" and constantly yelled at that "posts don't move!" but show them how to do it properly and let them practice the technique, off the field, without a dog. And if it's someone who still can't master it after lots of teaching and practice, then that's what tie out poles/trees are for.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

It happens ...

Although I've seen plenty of helpers give bad bites and then turn around and blame them on the handlers' line handling or the dogs ...


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

So while we are discussing proper posting technique... I still feel like I haven't gotten it down 100%. And I'm not small (6'1" and 220)... Usually I go left forward like a boxing stance and use my right hand to sink the leash into my hip behind me, weight on the back leg. Still I feel like I am not 100% rigid, although none of the helpers have ever complained... I've also seen some people do the around the butt hold. So, whats the "proper" way?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> A complaint from helpers the world over. And a legitimate one for sure. It's dangerous and it makes for bad training.
> 
> But at the same time, like everything else, "being a post" isn't something that comes naturally. Sometimes people forget or are mesmerized by watching the work and not paying attention, but very often they just don't know *how* to properly post a dog. None of us were good posts when we first started out as newbies. We had to learn.
> 
> With poor post technique, a 50lb Mal could pull over a linebacker. And with proper post technique a 100lb granny could hold back a 150lb Rottie. So make sure your newbies aren't just told to "be a post" and constantly yelled at that "posts don't move!" but show them how to do it properly and let them practice the technique, off the field, without a dog. And if it's someone who still can't master it after lots of teaching and practice, then that's what tie out poles/trees are for.



WOOHOO! Love this! :thumbup:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My pup was big(13 mos here) and my posting was not what it should have been. I didn't let go of the line however....








The same session the helper went down, too...so maybe gravity was messing us up(or the gopher holes)? 








Karlo had a blast that day!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> My pup was big(13 mos here) and my posting was not what it should have been. I didn't let go of the line however....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I went down a few times until I switched to the under the butt method. I feel a lot more stable when I'm pretty much sitting on the line now, lol.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

BR870 said:


> So while we are discussing proper posting technique... I still feel like I haven't gotten it down 100%. And I'm not small (6'1" and 220)... Usually I go left forward like a boxing stance and use my right hand to sink the leash into my hip behind me, weight on the back leg. Still I feel like I am not 100% rigid, although none of the helpers have ever complained... I've also seen some people do the around the butt hold. So, whats the "proper" way?


I'm 5'7" 140lb female and I either use a prong on a live ring or I "sit" on the line. Honestly though if we're doing some kind of work that involves a lot of line restraint I just back tie the dog. You can always back tie the dog AND have a second line that you are controlling with more subtlety which is my preference since I think safety is important but so is learning good line handling. You'll never get good at it if you don't concentrate on it. My Nikon has never been that hard to handle b/c he tends to just work out at the end of the line without any of the spinning/flipping or backing up and then lunging forward and pretty much has always worked on a prong collar. Pan doesn't spin/flip either but he used to do the backing up and then rearing forward like below, obviously an awkward moment! And I'm guessing those tears on the scratch pants are results of poor "posting"!









I'll admit, when I'm restraining my dog and the helper offers a real bite I do let up a bit and let the dog take the bite. Every once in a while we mess up, like there's a miss that was too close, or I didn't let up when I should have, or I did let up when I shouldn't have. Luckily we're at the point where whoever is at fault immediately apologizes and laughs it off.

Often I line handle for a friend who is a featherweight and has a large, super strong dog. They're just no match physically and unfortunately we sometimes have control and overloading issues with him so it takes two people to work him safely and teach him the right lessons.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Oh it's fully explained beforehand and demo'd. I constantly fix how people are holding leashes only for them to revert back within 5 minutes, or walk with me as I'm putting tension on the dog, or keeping the leash tight when I'm trying to get a regrip. Sometimes itd be much more productive if I just had someone else handle the dog lol.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Maybe you should channel Steve House's personality on for a bit, get your handlers in line! JK...
> Hope your not too broken, and you let the handlers know how important their end of the leash is.


 
Did you train with Steve House? Whats he like?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I remember reading an interview many years ago from a helper that stated when a helper gets bitten it is their fault. They did not take the necessary precautions to prevent the bites (I can already hear the arguments  ). This helper got bitten one time because they went against their better judgment and didn't back tie a dog they didn't know whose handler they had never met before. Except in a trial situation where the helper has little control over the situation, for the most part helpers should not be getting bitten if they are careful (yes, stuff can happen). If a handler can't handle their dog then put the dog on the pole or back tie them for your own safety and for the benefit of the dog. I have stepped in and helped a few handlers (been an anchor for them until they learn), but they still must handle their own dog. 

When I started I was taught to handle my dog and expected to handle my dog. I was also reminded countless times during a session if I was wrong. I learned quickly.  I lock my left hand on my left hip, lean my weight back over my left leg and take the brunt of much of the pulling on my right leg (and right arm). Even so I could not hold Donovan on a flat collar anymore. My girls, yes, but not him.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Gabor is the training director and training/teaching helper. We do explain, ensure that everyone knows what equipment to have and use, show ahead of time and go slow initially to ensure that people understand in the beginning. People watch other handlers, so they understand from both sides what it looks like.

We are pretty standardized on what collars and leashes to use.

 We have a lot of new people and so far, no issue with the leash handling. And we have a few people that have strong young males that are not big handlers. One started P90x even……… J


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I am definitely a novice handler, so...










Honestly, though. I am hoping to get proper instruction on how to hold that leash. My 8 month old pup Hunter is getting quite strong and I have a hard time holding him back when he is in drive. I know there is a certain way to stand and hold the leash, I just need to be taught how. Not a big deal yet though since I haven't started protection work. Feel terrible for the helpers who get beaten up for improper control on the handler's part!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Just to be clear, I didn't get bitten, I got nose punched in the eye socket. Was teaching a Doberman to settle into a bath and hold (first time), and I went just a touch past his stress threshold and instead of a self controlled bark and hold, he decided to lunge/jump. It could be partially my fault, but he was able to reach me bc the handler relaxed a little sice he was not doing his normal pulling at the end of the lead and he bought himself a few extra inches I handed planned on. It messed him up more than me lol. That unplanned interaction made took his confidence down a touch for the rest of the session :-/

But yes you could argue it is always the helpers fault if he gets bitten, in so much as he/she didn't mitigate the risks at hand


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## LukasGSD (May 18, 2011)

While, as a newbie, I'm not particularly bad at posting myself. (rather good actually, never had to be taught how to possition myself) Jaxon's only 70 right now and I'm not light.  But he can still tilt me off my balance.

I had to learn the differences between helpers because each of them do it a little bit differently. It got frustrating at first, now I just roll with it cause they know what they're doing. xD Some say I don't move enough, one says I move too much! Especially when we were applying pressure for rebites in the beginning. 

I'm more likely to NOT let go of the line at the proper time and piss my helper off than actually let go before the right time. LOL. I have poor timeing for sure, but we're learning, only been doing it for 7 Months. And I'm sure they have TREMENDOUS patience when it comes to us newbies.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

LukasGSD said:


> While, as a newbie, I'm not particularly bad at posting myself. (rather good actually, never had to be taught how to possition myself) Jaxon's only 70 right now and I'm not light.  But he can still tilt me off my balance.
> 
> I had to learn the differences between helpers because each of them do it a little bit differently. It got frustrating at first, now I just roll with it cause they know what they're doing. xD Some say I don't move enough, one says I move too much! Especially when we were applying pressure for rebites in the beginning.
> 
> I'm more likely to NOT let go of the line at the proper time and piss my helper off than actually let go before the right time. LOL. I have poor timeing for sure, but we're learning, only been doing it for 7 Months. And I'm sure they have TREMENDOUS patience when it comes to us newbies.


Piece of advise... Strive to learn what you want done with your dogs and how, so you can tell the helper what you want, and fix him if he's wrong ;-) I always start my sessions with "what do you want to do" and get a blank stare and I guide them through to suggestions... But that's my subtle way of conditioning our club members to take control and responsibility for their dogs training

Btw, I'm 138lbs and have no issue holding with of mine firmly enough that they will backflip in the air on a flat before that squeeze an inch out of me. It's ALL in the technique. I have even held both dogs on a Y lead... That's 150lbs of retarded agains my 138


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Question. How are you teaching the handlers (or is the training director and/or teaching helper doing this?) what to expect for foundation work? What are their goals? How are you explaining what builds on what?

New handlers cannot tell you what to do if they have no idea what they need to do and why, in the beginning. They should be able to tell you what they did the last session and the results.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

First, I'm sorry if you got hurt. That's never fun.



Smithie86 said:


> Question. How are you teaching the handlers (or is the training director and/or teaching helper doing this?) what to expect for foundation work? What are their goals? How are you explaining what builds on what?
> 
> New handlers cannot tell you what to do if they have no idea what they need to do and why, in the beginning. They should be able to tell you what they did the last session and the results.


Thank you for saying that. 

Still a novice myself and just wanted to share a bit of my experience.

I remember sending a video to Sundance’s breeder because I wanted to show her our progress, I was rather proud of how the dog was doing and her response to me was that *I* needed to stand still! I didn’t even realize how much I was moving around until she pointed this out to me. My own club members didn't say anything to me. 

The following week I went back to club, told them what she said about my moving around and asked one of the other handlers for help teaching me to "post". Last thing I want is for the helper to get injured/hurt due to my ignorance. But would anyone have taught me if she didn't tell me and I hadn't asked for help?


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Handlers... hold your freaking leash tight and *consistently* tight. I can't do my job if you don't do yours. Tonight I got a punch in the eye by a muzzle, and a crappy bite after crappy bite by another dog b/c the handler wouldn't just hold the leash firmly. Makes it very *very* hard to work a dog when they have 6 feet of wiggle room at the end of the leash. Nor do I like being charged and rammed by a dog b/c you let go of your lead by accident. :help: me :help: you!
> 
> Also, tonight one dog decided instead of the bark and hold we've been working on for months, he was just gonna fully on ram me in the crotchal region for reasons none of us understand. First time I wish I had a cup.
> 
> There, I'm done



I am one of those novice handlers and I agree with you 100%. I am working on holding the lead tightly and I have never let it go yet! My decoy always says...you better hold on to that lead...can't say I blame him. My girl is 70 pounds at 1 year old and I weigh in at 115. I have strong legs and I am short so I have good center of gravity. Yesterday was my first time working with an agitation harness and she was a lot stronger on that than the agitation collar so I will be continuing to work out to stay in shape to do this sport.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I read this thread to my husband....who is a helper.
He laughed and relied..."So true!...deja vu for him!".....every weekend.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Smithie86 said:


> Question. How are you teaching the handlers (or is the training director and/or teaching helper doing this?) what to expect for foundation work? What are their goals? How are you explaining what builds on what?
> 
> New handlers cannot tell you what to do if they have no idea what they need to do and why, in the beginning. They should be able to tell you what they did the last session and the results.


New or nearly new handlers get explained how to hold the leash, what will happen, and shown what to do. They always get wrapped up in the event and break the rules, so they get reminded. Physically challenged folks usually have someone else holding the lead behind them while they handle. Or those with really bad timing or poorer understanding of corrections, we'll often have someone experienced hold a long line and correct while the handler commands. We always explain what we are going to try to accomplish that day and how, and immediately afterwards talk about what went wrong and what went right.

I always ask any handler who has been out at least a few times, not because I expect an answer, but because I want them to get in the habit of trying to have an answer. I've gotten several club members to move from "go with whatever the helper wants" to actually deciding what we are working on... and they don't even know this shift is taking place. I really believe its a good thing, as it forces the handler to become more aware of the performance of the dog, helps them see the dog and their weak and strong points, takes the burden off me of remember where every dog is in training (and thats hard to do... particularly with 2 club helpers and switching back and forth who works which dog).


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vinnie said:


> First, I'm sorry if you got hurt. That's never fun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I almost always record my dogs working, me handling, and me doing helper work. The latter is the most important, as only a few club member can offer constructive criticism about helper work. I review my helper footage every night after working dogs


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

hunterisgreat said:


> I almost always record my dogs working, me handling, and me doing helper work. The latter is the most important, as only a few club member can offer constructive criticism about helper work. I review my helper footage every night after working dogs


This is excellent because it can help you a tremendous amount when you don't always have people around who can give educated critiques. Actually, even when you have the latter, sometimes seeing things yourself is even more beneficial.


As a handler I was taught that I must handle my own dog no matter what. No one took my line. The TD/helper didn't believe in that. He believed that you must learn to do things yourself. We maybe didn't always do things correctly, but we did learn and could never just throw up our hands in defeat and rely on someone else to do our job.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Your group does it a little differently than what I have worked in, have seen other clubs do.

Usually, the teaching helper is the one that is working with the young dogs and puppies. The foundation is put on by the experience teaching helper. After a certain point in training, and working with the teaching helper, the new club helper start working with the younger dogs, under the guidance of the teaching/training helper.

I have heard of some interesting scenarios. New person shows up, new to sport, with young dog. With no direction to the handler or explanation, “helper” takes the leash and has the handler toss around the puppy tug…… And requires payment for that…… J


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I am so lucky to have an excellent teaching/training helper.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It really does not matter what the level of experience is of the handler - I have 2 females, mother and daughter, and I have had the opportunity to train both with some very very good helpers....and I know how to hold them - but I keep hearing - Post! That bitch will bite me!!! You hold her, she will bite me! And when you work with different helpers, it is sometimes hard to know the timing and when to relax to let the dog get the bite, so you need to learn how to hold the dog and how to read the helper too!  

Lee


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> It really does not matter what the level of experience is of the handler - I have 2 females, mother and daughter, and I have had the opportunity to train both with some very very good helpers....and I know how to hold them - but I keep hearing - Post! That bitch will bite me!!! You hold her, she will bite me! And when you work with different helpers, it is sometimes hard to know the timing and when to relax to let the dog get the bite, so you need to learn how to hold the dog and how to read the helper too!
> 
> Lee


The helper should be deciding when the dog gets a bite


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

hunterisgreat said:


> The helper should be deciding when the dog gets a bite


Agree with Lee on how to read helper as well (and own dog) as the helper should read the dog AND the handler. If the handler is not doing well, the helper should stop. Same with the dog.

I always talked thru (all my helpers, here in the states and in Europe) when and why the dog would get a bite.

And sometimes it is the incorrect equipment. We use flat collars and leather leashes. No harnesses, no bungees. And it works. No spinning. No back flips (as we wait).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Stella's Mom said:


> I am one of those novice handlers and I agree with you 100%. I am working on holding the lead tightly and I have never let it go yet! My decoy always says...you better hold on to that lead...can't say I blame him. My girl is 70 pounds at 1 year old and I weigh in at 115. I have strong legs and I am short so I have good center of gravity. Yesterday was my first time working with an agitation harness and she was a lot stronger on that than the agitation collar so I will be continuing to work out to stay in shape to do this sport.


It's not so much just holding the line but not moving to give the dog closer access to the helper. My 90# dog has popped me off my feet more than once on a flat collar, and I keep my legs bent, body low, it still happened. 
I had to go to a prong to have more control, didn't set my dog back whatsoever.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I am a naturally clumsy handler. With my club, we had me handle my girl and we were trying to get her to target the sleeve properly. With me learning something new, and HER learning something new, there was way too much room for human error. Next session, I asked if I could back tie her, let her learn what SHE is doing and then work me into the equation. Sure enough, the next run with me handling the leash was MUCH better. Sometimes you just gotta let people step back and watch what the dog is SUPPOSED to be doing so that they can handle them correctly. It can be hard to handle a lunging dog, especially for smaller handlers


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I equate it to teaching someone to drive and pointing them to a stack of car parts. It is very hard to learn a skill while teaching (which to the dog, the handler is a teacher, that is where they are getting their queues). You also end up with a screwed up car to some extent . So we tend to step in pretty frequently if it looks like the dog is getting confused.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I first started training, I didn't have a dog to work, so was observing everything others were doing. Then when I got a pup the next club I was in was training a new helper, so I was able to gain information while spectating(my pup was too young). Unfortunately they ended up using me & my puppy to help train the helper. It didn't hurt anything, but surely didn't help either. It was always supervised and directed by the experienced one, but I regret it. 
Had I known then what I know now, I wouldn't have done it.
Luckily I had a good dog that was fine with it....and when we went elsewhere the lightbulb came on that showed how stagnant our beginning training was. 

I did learn alot, though about my handling skills and the timing...when the dog should be rewarded and not. So it wasn't all wasted time. 
If any handler has an opportunity to go to helper seminars, it is so worth it, even if it is a trial helper type seminar. I think everyone who is new to the sport, should learn from a helpers perspective before handling a line.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> When I first started training, I didn't have a dog to work, so was observing everything others were doing. Then when I got a pup the next club I was in was training a new helper, so I was able to gain information while spectating(my pup was too young). Unfortunately they ended up using me & my puppy to help train the helper. It didn't hurt anything, but surely didn't help either. It was always supervised and directed by the experienced one, but I regret it.
> Had I known then what I know now, I wouldn't have done it.
> Luckily I had a good dog that was fine with it....and when we went elsewhere the lightbulb came on that showed how stagnant our beginning training was.
> 
> ...


Someone asked me yesterday if I wanted to work my dogs he could wear the sleeve while I handled... I was like "... uhh.. i appreciate the offer, but being a helper not just being a bite object.". Actually last saturday was the first time my dogs have ever been handled by anyone other than me... by our club president lol


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good post and ...*sigh* trust me it's not any easier when you're 48 years old. 



I at least have TONS *pun intended* of experience handling 1000 pound plus horses so I knew how to center myself and hold on fairly well......but the nuances of it all - interaction between dog, handler, helper.....still a work in progress for sure.

Hopefully we'll get to keep working on it again soon though.....





GatorDog said:


> I also think it's safer to back-tie until the handler can fully understand the concept on how to work the line during protection. That way neither the helper or the dog gets screwed over in the work because it's all in the control of the helper.
> 
> I had no idea what I was doing when I first started and no one ever explained to me how I (a 17 year old girl) was supposed to correctly post myself to hold back my 85 pound dog. Needless to say, I moved around quite a bit, because its awful difficult to not move when you're holding the leash with two hands completely extended
> 
> ...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Im going to start back tying handlers. Or putting an ecollar on them and having someone stim them if they move


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I could see an experienced helper/handler pair being able to both know when a bite was appropriate, but if I told any of our lesser experienced members that we'd have way too many "sorry, thought you were giving him a bite" moments. I'll just never publicly say that and roll with it for those that can read me well.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Im going to start back tying handlers. Or putting an ecollar on them and having someone stim them if they move


I got hit with a whip because I moved. And let me tell you right now that after a pissed of teenage girl was done going up one side and down the other of that helper, I still knew nothing more about posting than I did before it happened...and my a$$ hurt.

People learn differently. Some have to physically be shown how to do it, some have to watch others, and some just need a good explanation. Gotta find out what works for some people before you get too angry. That's what training is all about.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I could see an experienced helper/handler pair being able to both know when a bite was appropriate, but if I told any of our lesser experienced members that we'd have way too many "sorry, thought you were giving him a bite" moments. I'll just never publicly say that and roll with it for those that can read me well.



I prefer the decoy be verbal when he works my dog. I like to hear "miss... miss... GRIP!" so I know when I'm suppose to give a lil slack.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Shaina said:


> I prefer the decoy be verbal when he works my dog. I like to hear "miss... miss... GRIP!" so I know when I'm suppose to give a lil slack.


I think dogs will pick up on that. Watched one of mine learn in about for interactions a light tap on a wall meant I was getting ready to give him "pass auf" just yesterday


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

No way!

Good for you for letting the helper have it. 




GatorDog said:


> I got hit with a whip because I moved. And let me tell you right now that after a pissed of teenage girl was done going up one side and down the other of that helper, I still knew nothing more about posting than I did before it happened...and my a$$ hurt.
> 
> People learn differently. Some have to physically be shown how to do it, some have to watch others, and some just need a good explanation. Gotta find out what works for some people before you get too angry. That's what training is all about.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

clik this~the first video w/ s. house


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've seen top German Dressage trainers put clinic riders in tears.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

GatorDog said:


> I got hit with a whip because I moved. And let me tell you right now that after a pissed of teenage girl was done going up one side and down the other of that helper, I still knew nothing more about posting than I did before it happened...and my a$$ hurt.
> 
> People learn differently. Some have to physically be shown how to do it, some have to watch others, and some just need a good explanation. Gotta find out what works for some people before you get too angry. That's what training is all about.


This is an excellent post. Just because some one is a good at...... (insert here)... does not mean they are good trainers, teachers, instructors. Sometimes the best trainer/teacher/instructor is not the best helper, trainer, etc. It is the person that knows how to read people, the best communicator, and what best works for that person in training.

To me, the best instruction is ahead of time and what is expected when you step out onto the field. There should be little to no correction of the handler during the training - if so, they were not explain to what was expected.

This is from dog training to work training, etc. to teaching.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Just found out today in a few months I'll probably be the primary (only) helper at our club ;-)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That will be a work out for you...hope you don't get burned out! Is there anyone you can mentor? Too few helpers in this world.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> That will be a work out for you...hope you don't get burned out! Is there anyone you can mentor? Too few helpers in this world.


Its already a workout. 3 new puppies today. Puppies are sooooooo much more work than a SchH3 dog lol.

Fortunately yes. I'll be/have been learning from a few of the best out there. A few people on here know who I train with, but I've interestingly found that the all the really awesome people prefer that their names or likenesses never be used in a public capacity lol. So I honor their wishes and have never/will never acknowledge anything regarding them


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What I meant was~ start training/groom someone who may be interested in helperwork. Now that you have some experience you don't want to over work yourself...so pass on your knowledge as has been done for you.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> What I meant was~ start training/groom someone who may be interested in helperwork. Now that you have some experience you don't want to over work yourself...so pass on your knowledge as has been done for you.


Oh lol.. I'm too new to think in that capacity. I was actually thinking about that today.. and as far as regular club members go, no one comes to mind who is a) interested enough, and b) capable... so I guess I gotta go hit the streets and recruit me a lackey lol.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Handlers... hold your freaking leash tight and *consistently* tight. I can't do my job if you don't do yours. Tonight I got a punch in the eye by a muzzle, and a crappy bite after crappy bite by another dog b/c the handler wouldn't just hold the leash firmly. Makes it very *very* hard to work a dog when they have 6 feet of wiggle room at the end of the leash. Nor do I like being charged and rammed by a dog b/c you let go of your lead by accident. :help: me :help: you!
> 
> Also, tonight one dog decided instead of the bark and hold we've been working on for months, he was just gonna fully on ram me in the crotchal region for reasons none of us understand. First time I wish I had a cup.
> 
> There, I'm done


 
I am a novice handler. I have not been able to get this post out of my head while working my dog. So first, thank you. Everytime I start to look at my dog I thing NO look at the helper. Second, today I started learning the helper side and got the chance to wear the sleeve. It is a very different perspective being of the bite side. I think by learning how to be a helper it will help me become a better handler.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I am a novice handler. I have not been able to get this post out of my head while working my dog. So first, thank you. Everytime I start to look at my dog I thing NO look at the helper. Second, today I started learning the helper side and got the chance to wear the sleeve. It is a very different perspective being of the bite side. I think by learning how to be a helper it will help me become a better handler.


My (selfish) motivation in being a helper, is to better understand my own dogs... and know what *I* want out of a given helper... and know when to pull my dog from working with a helper who's skill/methods I'm not comfortable with


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> It is a very different perspective being of the bite side. I think by learning how to be a helper it will help me become a better handler.


It is both thrilling, and nerve-racking, to catch a dog on a long bite. We have a few very hard hitting dogs, and my left arm is always bruised from catching dogs... and there is a rivet in one sleeve that keeps slicing my elbow open :-(


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> It is both thrilling, and nerve-racking, to catch a dog on a long bite. We have a few very hard hitting dogs, and my left arm is always bruised from catching dogs... and there is a rivet in one sleeve that keeps slicing my elbow open :-(


I did not get to catch a long bite (for safety of the dogs not me). I just stood there during a bark and hold, then bite. There is a lot more into being a helper than I could have ever imagined. Angles of the sleeve, hight, and much much more. Plus it changes for every dog. Since I liked it, my club is going to train me as a reserve helper just in case one of the other two can't make it. I also like it because it will give me something to do while I wait for my turn. Makes the time go by faster hahaha.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think long bites should be done very often...it is a risk for both dog and helper. I know our helper use to do this as basically a reward, the last bite in the session. Though as my dog is very large/powerful, he seldom gave him a long bite. And when he did a couple times it wrenched his back. 
I love watching long bites, but do know it is a risk on both sides. Helpers are so valuable~I hope all handlers understand what their training would be like without them. We just lost ours as a group, and there is no one on our side of the state worthy of working with. So group is disbanding.
I agree, you see a truly different perspective doing the helper side, and all handlers should learn about the timing, etc to make them a better handler!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, you see a truly different perspective doing the helper side, and all handlers should learn about the timing, etc to make them a better handler!


Very true. And that's why it is so important to _properly_ explain what is expected of a handler, or don't give the full responsibility of the dog in protection work and use a back tie.

And I agree with the long bites. I know that my dog is going to bite regardless of distance, so it's something I do not practice very often at all. Waaaaaaay too risky, IMO.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think long bites should be done very often...it is a risk for both dog and helper. I know our helper use to do this as basically a reward, the last bite in the session. Though as my dog is very large/powerful, he seldom gave him a long bite. And when he did a couple times it wrenched his back.
> I love watching long bites, but do know it is a risk on both sides. Helpers are so valuable~I hope all handlers understand what their training would be like without them. We just lost ours as a group, and there is no one on our side of the state worthy of working with. So group is disbanding.
> I agree, you see a truly different perspective doing the helper side, and all handlers should learn about the timing, etc to make them a better handler!


Long bites are always a bit sketchy... but as someone I respect told me.. if you're scared to catch a dog, or scared of hurting someones dog, then just put the sleeve away and don't be a helper. You will have a day where a dog gets hurt if you do it long enough. Dogs are weird. Most show you where they are gonna take you. Sometimes they shift at the last second. My male used to go one side, then shift just before he gathered. I'm sure whenever I sent him I always was grinding my teeth. Still, its part of the game.. 

I have the benefit of a jiujitsu background, so I'm pretty well versed in rolling with momentum, and I'm also about 138lbs, so a decent sized dog can toss me around a bit. When a bigger or faster dog hits me hard, I'm naturally able to bleed off the energy easier than the bigger helpers.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I did not get to catch a long bite (for safety of the dogs not me). I just stood there during a bark and hold, then bite. There is a lot more into being a helper than I could have ever imagined. Angles of the sleeve, hight, and much much more. Plus it changes for every dog. Since I liked it, my club is going to train me as a reserve helper just in case one of the other two can't make it. I also like it because it will give me something to do while I wait for my turn. Makes the time go by faster hahaha.


Once you get comfortable with just your sleeve presentation... then becomes the real part... learning to mark & reward at the right time... knowing when you're asking too much or not getting enough out of a dog. knowing when you're putting too much pressure on a dog, or not enough. knowing when you're too much in prey, or too much in defense. Knowing how to get more prey or defense out of a given dog.... just remembering what a given dog did last week? And then there are all the little tricks of the trade for fixing this or helping that. I'm *just* beginning. I figure I'll have a good idea what I'm doing by the time I'm 70. Hopefully they'll have a robot body for me by then.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

LOL....We have this 125 pound Bouvier, his name is Samson....very prophetic name. He is faster than any of the GS, more powerful, and definitely stronger. A Beast. I have this love/hate thing working him.I love the exhileration of working this dog, especially of escape bites and short sends....lets me feel thirtyish again JUST to handle this dog. But even with apron or full suit, you are going to have hematomas, and deep scratches when you finish working him. Still, I love working him....kinda like my w.....nah I didn't say that!!


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

she don't read these boards does she?
LOL!


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