# What is a back yard breeder ?????????



## Safzola

What is a back yard breeder ???????? just i dont understand what this means zolas mam ursula :gsdhead:


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## julie87

A person who breeds dogs in their own backyard and sells them for money. Its a huge problem becuase a lot of their dogs have bad nerves and health issues which end up at the shelter or euthenized due to agression. 

For example if you had male and female GSD and they had a litter and you sold their puppies you would be considered "backyard breeder". Its not good for dogs or their owners.

A lot of them end up growing up in terrible conditions, no vet care and no appropriate space to live... and then when nobody buys them they end up at the shelter or they end up abused by their owners or people who got a "cheap" puppy  ...


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## Safzola

thats horrible i feel sad to know that...... its still going to be a problem if people think they are getting a healthy pup and not realise they are back yard breeders i mean if they advertise to be decent breeders how will they no any difference ? this will encourage breeders to do it more and more.......


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## julie87

Backyard breeder puppies usually don't come with papers that guarantees their hips/elbows.. And they don't have info on parents either. Their cost is up to $300 a pup that I know. The pup that you would get would be a complete mystery. A good real breeder puppy will be $1000 and up. 

The problem is say you do get a pup from backyard breeder... At two months they are cute and goofy and you won't know the difference but around 5 months you will see either health issues or temperament issues or worse... BOTH. backyard breeders have no interest or love for the animals. They are only doing this to make a quick buck while their male and female GSD suffers. For example say the mom is in labor is there are complications she will be left to die and so is her litter because backyard breeders cant afford The vet...You can research more details online about it but that pretty much sums it up. 


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## Safzola

thank you for letting me no, i think in future i will warn people i know who is interested in getn a GSD to be careful ... :hug:


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## julie87

definately


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## Safzola

julie87 said:


> A person who breeds dogs in their own backyard and sells them for money. Its a huge problem becuase a lot of their dogs have bad nerves and health issues which end up at the shelter or euthenized due to agression.
> 
> For example if you had male and female GSD and they had a litter and you sold their puppies you would be considered "backyard breeder". Its not good for dogs or their owners.
> 
> A lot of them end up growing up in terrible conditions, no vet care and no appropriate space to live... and then when nobody buys them they end up at the shelter or they end up abused by their owners or people who got a "cheap" puppy  ...


Hence the reason we are seeing an increase in rescue dogs,over here in the UK,we are volunteers for a GSD rescue and its upsetting to see them unwanted


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## robk

So Julie87, What about breeders who do care about there dogs? They provide them with care and love. They just don't know much about the breed and are breeding their pets or to a dog down the street because they are very pretty. Maybe they don't have the first clue how to read a pedigree or know anything about titles or conformation or genetic health issues. They are really nice people who take good care of their dogs but are not combining intelligently matched pairs. Are they not also back yard breeders? I would argue that most people who are back yard breeders fall into this category.


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## llombardo

julie87 said:


> The problem is say you do get a pup from backyard breeder... At two months they are cute and goofy and you won't know the difference but around 5 months you will see either health issues or temperament issues or worse... BOTH.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



This is not a statement that is fact, it might be true in some cases, but not all. I'm not defending a back yard breeder, but I will defend the dog that comes from it, but that is just me. I don't have an issue with loving an animal that might not be perfect.


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## GusGus

IMO a backyard breeder is someone who is ignorant to the knowledge they should have before breeding. Someone who has good looking dogs or wonderful pets but doesn't know the proper way to go about breeding. (Health checks, guarantees, matching two dogs to breed a good litter, titled etc.) Not all backyard breeders are bad people, just ignorant people.


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## gaia_bear

GusGus said:


> IMO a backyard breeder is someone who is ignorant to the knowledge they should have before breeding. Someone who has good looking dogs or wonderful pets but doesn't know the proper way to go about breeding. (Health checks, guarantees, matching two dogs to breed a good litter, titled etc.) Not all backyard breeders are bad people, just ignorant people.


Agree! And not everyone who buys from a BYB is a horrible owner, more ofter than not we are just uneducated. Gaia is a BYB dog, I've lucked out with no health/temperment issues so far at 10 months, she's an awesome dog but I'm doing my homework for the next one.


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## Justaguy

I always worry that my Jack might be from a byb but so far at 7 months no temperament issues or health problems. Got him off a lady that couldn't wait to get rid of him and had no papers. Supposedly he was her boyfriends who was in prison at the time.


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## Lilie

GusGus said:


> IMO a backyard breeder is someone who is ignorant to the knowledge they should have before breeding. Someone who has good looking dogs or wonderful pets but doesn't know the proper way to go about breeding. (Health checks, guarantees, matching two dogs to breed a good litter, titled etc.) Not all backyard breeders are bad people, just ignorant people.


Very true. And the term 'back yard' doesn't really mean a physical location. Could be. Would likely be.


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## GusGus

gaia_bear said:


> Agree! And not everyone who buys from a BYB is a horrible owner, more ofter than not we are just uneducated. Gaia is a BYB dog, I've lucked out with no health/temperment issues so far at 10 months, she's an awesome dog but I'm doing my homework for the next one.


I got Gus from a backyard breeder. He is fed good food, has a warm king sized bed to sleep in, and lots of love given to him. He is pretty pampered if I may say so myself. Lol. I was uneducated when I bought him, and now I know better. But I have lucked out so far with health issues (crossing my fingers). And temperament basically. He's not too bad off. But would I do it again? No.


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## MaggieRoseLee

GusGus said:


> IMO a backyard breeder is someone who is ignorant to the knowledge they should have before breeding. Someone who has good looking dogs or wonderful pets but doesn't know the proper way to go about breeding. (Health checks, guarantees, matching two dogs to breed a good litter, titled etc.) Not all backyard breeders are bad people, just ignorant people.


Well said. When you know better you can do better (which generally means to STOP breeding and leave it to people who can fit more into the 'responsible' breeder category. 

With hundreds of GSD's in kill shelters and rescues, clearly there are enough dogs out there being bred. Since 'responsible' breeders always take their dogs back, and when we purchase them we sign paperwork saying we know to contact the breeder rather than dumping a dog, if you love the breed it's worth finding those responsible breeders and not adding to the overpopulation problem.

The most important thing is to really know what goes into being a 'responsible' breeder. And if you don't fit into that, get those dogs all spayed and neutered to not worry about it anymore. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html has great information.


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## martemchik

Here's the issue you guys aren't covering:

The majority of problem dogs come from back yard breeders, but it doesn't mean the majority of back yard bred dogs have problems.

So the reason byb is so prominent is that MOST people do not have issues with those dogs. Many people have had success with byb and will continue going to byb due to the low cost. Sadly, not everyone understands the worth of a well-bred puppy and until they have a bad experience, or fall into a group that teaches them better (this forum, a breed club, a Schutzhund club), they will never understand the difference.

My dog is one that would be considered from a byb breeding...he has AKC registration and that was the thing I looked for when I was looking for a dog. I didn't understand why I should pay two to three times more for a puppy because his parents were either titled or show champions. It made no sense to me. He's completely healthy, amazing drive, and an all around good dog. People at my breed club have asked to see his pedigree many times. So if I hadn't fallen into that club, or this forum, I probably would've gone the same route again...papered parents but no titles or health checks.

Sadly most people don't want to pay $1000 for what they call a pet.


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## shepherdmom

and most importantly we need to be careful not to label someone a BYB just because they breed in their yard. Hobby breeders know their lines, have health certificates do temperament testing and know what they are doing. They may only breed a litter every few years. Their dogs are usually spoken for before the litter is even born and they are most times not as expensive as the big breeders.


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## gsdraven

julie87 said:


> Backyard breeder puppies usually don't come with papers that guarantees their hips/elbows.. And they don't have info on parents either. Their cost is up to $300 a pup that I know. The pup that you would get would be a complete mystery. A good real breeder puppy will be $1000 and up.
> 
> The problem is say you do get a pup from backyard breeder... At two months they are cute and goofy and you won't know the difference but around 5 months you will see either health issues or temperament issues or worse... BOTH. backyard breeders have no interest or love for the animals. They are only doing this to make a quick buck while their male and female GSD suffers. For example say the mom is in labor is there are complications she will be left to die and so is her litter because backyard breeders cant afford The vet...You can research more details online about it but that pretty much sums it up.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


While those kinds of breeders can certainly fall into the BYB category, I would say that most are not like that. I have heard of BYB pups being up to $1,000 so you can't go by price. Just because the dog costs a lot, doesn't mean it's well bred. 

And not every BYB dog will have health or temperament issues. My 5 yr old Raven is BYB and to this date has a lovely temperament and no health issues (knock wood). 

I like GusGus's description. A backyard breeder is just someone who is breeding without knowledge of bloodlines, health testing and most likely unaware of all the thought that should go into a good solid mating. Not quite the evil beings some make them out to be but most are not helping the breed by putting together stellar genetics and creating stable dogs and educating owners.


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## onyx'girl

shepherdmom said:


> and most importantly we need to be careful not to label someone a BYB just because they breed in their yard. Hobby breeders know their lines, have health certificates do temperament testing and know what they are doing. They may only breed a litter every few years. Their dogs are usually spoken for before the litter is even born and they are most times not as expensive as the big breeders.


Hobby breeders are usually never put in the same catagory as a person who breeds pets with no other goal than to to make a bit of $. 
There is no comparison.


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## MaggieRoseLee

I know for me, rather than focusing on what a backyard breed is not...

I like to see what a responsible breeder IS --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## shepherdmom

onyx'girl said:


> Hobby breeders are usually never put in the same catagory as a person who breeds pets with no other goal than to to make a bit of $.
> There is no comparison.


Some people do put them in the same category. My Shadow and Buddy came from a hobby breeder and I can't tell you how many times I've been bitched out because I didn't use a big kennel.  Whatever.... Now I get rescues.


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## Fynn&Vandy

Hold on a second. Though I do believe a decent backyard breeder is hard to come by, not all of them are bad. Just like all big breeders aren't necessarily the kindest of caregivers. I like the idea of a backyard breeder but, I got lucky. My puppy was registered and, had her individual vet records and, all that jazz. It is RARE I will admit but, it is possible. I love knowing that my puppy was loved up to the very moment we picked her up, they were played with, they had a yard to run amuck etc. I saw where they were kept and, cared for. I have copies of her parents registration (fathers a champion and, Mom was never shown), as well as their health records. I have a super smart gorgeous well tempered ultra healthy puppy. This isn't a great route for everyone!!!! I never intend to show my dog or anything this is little family member. If you do consider this avenue- RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH!! Have documentation of everything. You wouldn't buy a puppy from anyone without those, backyard breeder or not. 
Most of my family members were doberman breeders forever. 25+ years. I can't say I ever would but, breeding my pup with the proper help of knowledgeable breeders and, my vet wouldn't be the same as say the douche living next door who can't teach his puppy to sit. No matter what way you go you could be dealing with an idiot. 
My girlfriends Husky puppy has two front nubs and, no back legs, because of inbreeding. She went to highly recommend breeder and, took the wrong turn and ends up finding this little girl. She asked hope often something like this happens and what they were going to do with her. "almost one in every litter. We'll wait until she's old enough, breed her once and probably put her down." Is the answer she got. She scooped her up and got her a classy custom wheelchair. Breeding isn't great either way but, rescues aren't for everyone. Just don't dive into any situation. Get to know your breeder, the one with open doors and, documentation is the one I'm interested in.


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## Shade

onyx'girl said:


> Hobby breeders are usually never put in the same catagory as a person who breeds pets with no other goal than to to make a bit of $.
> There is no comparison.


Exactly! Just like *every* breeder who has more then 3 litters a year is not a puppy mill! 

There's no complete checklist, people need to decide for themselves what they're comfortable with


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## msvette2u

Backyard breeders are the ones selling their dogs on Kijiji and Craigslist. 
Good breeders have goals in mind when they are breeding their dogs, such as using the "best of the best" to perpetuate the lines, backyard breeders have no goals in mind other than "hey these dogs are awesome and we want to make more awesome puppies". 
They are often especially interested in having their dogs "work" for them, to "earn their keep", so to speak, by producing puppies that can then be sold. 
Backyard breeders don't realize there is a whole host of health and temperament issues that can crop up when you don't pay attention to bloodlines or proper health testing.


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## Safzola

Wow thanks for all the replies, god we love this web site,,,we are learning a lot..A few people think we are mad not to let Zola have a litter of puppies,but why would we want one.....don`t get me wrong ,we could do with some extra cash but we wouldn`t want to go down that line,,,leave that to the experts.....We feel the breeder we got Zola from had his heart in the right place and certainly knew his stuff and what a great set up he had,...yes yes it was in his back yard but as the post said earlier ,thats no room to call him BYB.....a contract was signed, papers with 3 generations given ,phone numbers exchanged and the joy of knowing he is always there for us if we need him..so yes we are so happy with her...BYB or not.......


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## MaggieRoseLee

Just because you have a backyard and breed your dogs at home does NOT make you a 'backyard' breeder....

That's why we need to research and be aware of 'responsible' as a breeder requirement. Not the yard thing


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## wolfy dog

MHO: "Back yard breeder" is a general term that doesn't necessarily mean bad dogs; it is a label. How can you define a breeder by a certain location? WD's breeder doesn't look fancy at all when you visit the place but knows what he is doing and breeds rock solid dogs; physically and mentally sound. Better than some breeders with fancy kennels, super clean environment (for health reasons!) and minimal socialization for the pups, just breeding for the numbers.
One size doesn't fit all.
There are bad and good breeders on both sides. You can buy a CH line dog with bad temperament but at the same time also end up with a rescue dog that is awesome despite his back ground and all.


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## Jd414

wolfy dog said:


> MHO: "Back yard breeder" is a general term that doesn't necessarily mean bad dogs; it is a label. How can you define a breeder by a certain location? WD's breeder doesn't look fancy at all when you visit the place but knows what he is doing and breeds rock solid dogs; physically and mentally sound. Better than some breeders with fancy kennels, super clean environment (for health reasons!) and minimal socialization for the pups, just breeding for the numbers.
> One size doesn't fit all.
> There are bad and good breeders on both sides. You can buy a CH line dog with bad temperament but at the same time also end up with a rescue dog that is awesome despite his back ground and all.


Well put


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## Safzola

Jd414 said:


> Well put
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


WOW thank you


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## zivagirl

wolfy dog said:


> MHO: "Back yard breeder" is a general term that doesn't necessarily mean bad dogs; it is a label. How can you define a breeder by a certain location? WD's breeder doesn't look fancy at all when you visit the place but knows what he is doing and breeds rock solid dogs; physically and mentally sound. Better than some breeders with fancy kennels, super clean environment (for health reasons!) and minimal socialization for the pups, just breeding for the numbers.
> One size doesn't fit all.
> There are bad and good breeders on both sides. You can buy a CH line dog with bad temperament but at the same time also end up with a rescue dog that is awesome despite his back ground and all.


Bottom line, breeders have the unfortunate tendency towards being mere humans. Some are better than others. Some of your 'top of the line ' breeders, whole not abusing or technically neglecting their dogs, the fact is, they show not because they love their breed, but because it means another notch on their belt and a higher askin g price for their litters. My ideal breeder must love her dogs FIRST, breed healthy stock, provide a happy living environment.


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## julie87

Perhaps y'all have seen what I seen what goes on at BYB that's why some of you are accepting of BYB. 

THERE ARE NO GOOD REASONS TO SUPPORT BYB!!!!!

It need to STOP. 


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## Safzola

OK so i`m starting to get the picture here.
1. Some BYB aren`t dog lovers but money worshippers,
2. Some BYB do love the breed and take every care to ensure they get a healthy litter.
3. Show line top breeders breed the best litters .
4. Show line breeders are more expensive.
5 BYB are the cheapest.
So ok some more questions........
1.Do the top breeders always get puppies that are all healthy ?
2.If not what do they do with the unhealthy ones .?
3.Do BYB just pick any stud they can get.
4.What do BYB`s do with the pups that are unsold ?
5.Are top breeders still trying to improve the GSD.
6.Where do top breeders have their kennels,,backyard maybe ? 
AND LAST QUESTION..has a BYB gsd ever won a top show.
I`m not trying to course a argument,just wanting to learn more.


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## Mrs.K

julie87 said:


> *A person who breeds dogs in their own backyard and sells them for money. Its a huge problem becuase a lot of their dogs have bad nerves and health issues which end up at the shelter or euthenized due to agression. *
> 
> For example if you had male and female GSD and they had a litter and you sold their puppies you would be considered "backyard breeder". Its not good for dogs or their owners.
> 
> A lot of them end up growing up in terrible conditions, no vet care and no appropriate space to live... and then when nobody buys them they end up at the shelter or they end up abused by their owners or people who got a "cheap" puppy  ...


Even ethical breeders, breed their dogs in their own backyard most of the time because not every small, responsible breeder has a huge facility. 

The point of being a byb is that the dogs are not worked, titled or at least health tested. It's two random dogs, put together because they are "AKC" or because they are so "big and fluffy" and the "best dog in the world" without any understanding to what they produce.


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## julie87

ok, doest it matter WHERE they breed them? The mojority is horrible conditions cold backyards, pups eat/drink/poop/pee all in the same place(cage) because there is no room for them while parents are locked up in their own cages. This is what I saw when I bought my dog for $225 when I didn't know any better. Now, I am not saying that ALL of them will be like that but 90% will be!!!! and what happens when you get a pup and fall in love with it and get so attached and realize he or she has health issues or bad nerves. Your pup will either have horrible life or will be put to sleep. Does that sound good to you??????

Please do not encourage anyone to get pups from them. The more they sell the more they breed the more sick/fearful dogs end up dead or at the shelter. This is their dogs future MOST OF THE TIME. Even if 1% of their pups turn out great is it worth it to continue this madness?

There is NOTHING positivie to say about BYB. So everyone just STOP talking about it already!


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## missshepherddiva

Wow... I wish I would have stumbled upon this site earlier. I paid $650 from a back yard breeder. Bought him off of lancasterpuppiesgotcom. I figured since he was AKC that, that is what I was supposed to look for. The website said he was vet checked. After I drove three hours to pick him up I was told that their son had given Max his shots. I fell in love with Max so I took him home anyway. The puppies were in a barn when I arrived. I wasn't expecting that. I figured I'd pick him up from a nice warm enviroment. SMH... all that was two weeks ago. I have taken him to the vet and so far so good. I love him with all my heart, this is my first pure bred GSD. The main reason I bought him from that website and not a local breeder because there were only a few breeders in my area ( within a few hours radiace) who were all selling their puppies for 3k. As much as I wanted a puppy I didn't have that kind of money to put out for a dog. ** OK.. just an insight of why someone would buy from one in the first place.**


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## MaggieRoseLee

missshepherddiva, hoping your puppy turns out as perfect as he currently seems to be!

But you bought from a worse (in my opinion) type of breeder. Sounds like a puppy miller. The issue with them is the fact that it's a business in every way and puppies are just a product. So the adorable puppy they clean up and sell to someone shows no signs of the conditions they were probably born into and that your money is allowing to continue for future litters (and worse) for the parent dog(s).

It's crazy how the Amish are some of the worst and PA is one of the worst states!


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## zivagirl

julie87 said:


> Perhaps y'all have seen what I seen what goes on at BYB that's why some of you are accepting of BYB.
> 
> THERE ARE NO GOOD REASONS TO SUPPORT BYB!!!!!
> 
> It need to STOP.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That's a mighty broad brush you're wielding, there.


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## zivagirl

missshepherddiva said:


> Wow... I wish I would have stumbled upon this site earlier. I paid $650 from a back yard breeder. Bought him off of lancasterpuppiesgotcom. I figured since he was AKC that, that is what I was supposed to look for. The website said he was vet checked. After I drove three hours to pick him up I was told that their son had given Max his shots. I fell in love with Max so I took him home anyway. The puppies were in a barn when I arrived. I wasn't expecting that. I figured I'd pick him up from a nice warm enviroment. SMH... all that was two weeks ago. I have taken him to the vet and so far so good. I love him with all my heart, this is my first pure bred GSD. The main reason I bought him from that website and not a local breeder because there were only a few breeders in my area ( within a few hours radiace) who were all selling their puppies for 3k. As much as I wanted a puppy I didn't have that kind of money to put out for a dog. ** OK.. just an insight of why someone would buy from one in the first place.**


I also hope your pup continues on a body and mind-healthy path and believe that you'll do what it takes to see him through thick and thin. . This said, given the fact that you really don't know what went into his breeding, I'm guessing that you'll be having him neutered?


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## lhczth

BYB, just like "puppy mills", are terms created to divide and conquer. Used to put "labels" on something to help destroy all breeding. It is very obvious that people can not come up with a good description because everyone bases their description on their own opinion, what they have heard repeated over and over again on the internet or from a bad experience. 

Obviously those raising their dogs in total filth with little care are not people who should be supported, but there are also breeders that take great care of their dogs who also should not be supported. 

The Amish are puppy farmers. They treat their dogs like livestock as do places like Hunt corporation. Only way to eliminate these types of breeders is to eliminate their market and thus take away their ability to make money. Only way to do that is to hope we can educate enough people so they stop buying these puppies.


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## Safzola

lhczth said:


> BYB, just like "puppy mills", are terms created to divide and conquer. Used to put "labels" on something to help destroy all breeding. It is very obvious that people can not come up with a good description because everyone bases their description on their own opinion, what they have heard repeated over and over again on the internet or from a bad experience.
> 
> Obviously those raising their dogs in total filth with little care are not people who should be supported, but there are also breeders that take great care of their dogs who also should not be supported.
> 
> The Amish are puppy farmers. They treat their dogs like livestock as do places like Hunt corporation. Only way to eliminate these types of breeders is to eliminate their market and thus take away their ability to make money. Only way to do that is to hope we can educate enough people so they stop buying these puppies.


And we hope this forum will help do that,educate educate ,educate,,,,


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## lhczth

Safzola said:


> OK so i`m starting to get the picture here.
> 
> 3. Show line top breeders breed the best litters .
> 4. Show line breeders are more expensive.
> 5 BYB are the cheapest.


3. Not always.
4. Not always
5. I don't know what a BYB is, but since pet store puppies and "hybrid" mutts can bring a ton of money, I don't believe you can generalize who has the cheapest or most expensive. 




> So ok some more questions........
> 1.Do the top breeders always get puppies that are all healthy ?
> 2.If not what do they do with the unhealthy ones .?
> 3.Do BYB just pick any stud they can get.
> 4.What do BYB`s do with the pups that are unsold ?
> 5.Are top breeders still trying to improve the GSD.
> 6.Where do top breeders have their kennels,,backyard maybe ?
> AND LAST QUESTION..has a BYB gsd ever won a top show.
> I`m not trying to course a argument,just wanting to learn more.


1. No
2. Depends on the breeder and what the health issue is with the pup/dog. My female Alexis is severely dysplastic. I had people tell me I should have killed her when she was a puppy. She is almost 10. 
3. Many breeders do this.
4. I still don't know what a BYB is, but some breeders give them away, some keep them until the right home comes along, some price them cheap to sell to the first buyer, some take them to shelters, some may even destroy them. Only one of these breeders would I support.
5. No. Some are trying to preserve it.
6. Some don't even have kennels, but most have back yards. 
7. Don't know. I don't know what a BYB is. There are breeders that people on this board recommend all the time that I would never support. Does that make them BYB?


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## shepherdmom

julie87 said:


> ok, doest it matter WHERE they breed them? The mojority is horrible conditions cold backyards, pups eat/drink/poop/pee all in the same place(cage) because there is no room for them while parents are locked up in their own cages. This is what I saw when I bought my dog for $225 when I didn't know any better. Now, I am not saying that ALL of them will be like that but 90% will be!!!! and what happens when you get a pup and fall in love with it and get so attached and realize he or she has health issues or bad nerves. Your pup will either have horrible life or will be put to sleep. Does that sound good to you??????


You are confusing the term puppy mill with byb. My first dog was from a byb. They lived in a nice home, the puppies were clean and healthy they had both parents on site. Mom was a beautiful papered shephered, dad was a gorgeous papered male Akita. The owners wanted their kids to see puppies born. What none of us knew, lurking in that genetic background, was that my beautiful puppy would show up with HD at less than a year. We spent the money and got her the surgery she needed and she lived to be 13. One of the best dogs I ever had. Not all BYB are evil or money grubbing. Some just don't know any better. Everything is not black and white all the time.


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## zivagirl

shepherdmom said:


> You are confusing the term puppy mill with byb. My first dog was from a byb. They lived in a nice home, the puppies were clean and healthy they had both parents on site. Mom was a beautiful papered shephered, dad was a gorgeous papered male Akita. The owners wanted their kids to see puppies born. What none of us knew, lurking in that genetic background, was that my beautiful puppy would show up with HD at less than a year. We spent the money and got her the surgery she needed and she lived to be 13. One of the best dogs I ever had. Not all BYB are evil or money grubbing. Some just don't know any better. Everything is not black and white all the time.


I bought an intentional mix where both parents were papered, wrongly believing that the genetic 'best' of both breeds would miraculously merge and bring about the perfect pup.

O! M! G! Bichon Frisee and Beagle mix. Someone should have shot me for being so, so irresponsible. We'd just put down our Bear about 6 months earlier, and we were looking to fill a hole. Well - this dog drove ALL of us absolutely crazy. We went from a mellow newfie to a crackhead-like flea! He was SO hyper and nose driven that one of our cats licked all of her fur off except for the strip down her spine that she couldn't reach.

This was almost 3 years ago. We rehomed him with a family with 5 kids. Perfect fit for them...though you will never convince me that mixing a Bichon and a Beagle is a good thing to do. LOL


----------



## shepherdmom

zivagirl said:


> I bought an intentional mix where both parents were papered, wrongly believing that the genetic 'best' of both breeds would miraculously merge and bring about the perfect pup.
> 
> O! M! G! Bichon Frisee and Beagle mix. Someone should have shot me for being so, so irresponsible. We'd just put down our Bear about 6 months earlier, and we were looking to fill a hole. Well - this dog drove ALL of us absolutely crazy. We went from a mellow newfie to a crackhead-like flea! He was SO hyper and nose driven that one of our cats licked all of her fur off except for the strip down her spine that she couldn't reach.
> 
> This was almost 3 years ago. We rehomed him with a family with 5 kids. Perfect fit for them...though you will never convince me that mixing a Bichon and a Beagle is a good thing to do. LOL


Some mixes turn out to be absolute sweethearts and some turn out to be a mess. You just never can tell. Even professional breeders sometimes don't get what they were expecting. Which is why our last few dogs have all been rescue. We have no idea what is lurking in their genetic backgrounds that may come out and get us someday, but they have the personality and temperament that I want today.  Not to mention Tasha came already potty trained! Priceless!


----------



## zivagirl

shepherdmom said:


> Some mixes turn out to be absolute sweethearts and some turn out to be a mess. You just never can tell. Even professional breeders sometimes don't get what they were expecting. Which is why our last few dogs have all been rescue. We have no idea what is lurking in their genetic backgrounds that may come out and get us someday, but they have the personality and temperament that I want today.  Not to mention Tasha came already potty trained! Priceless!


With Bethers being 11 months, we avoided the fear stage, most of the chewing stage, most of the 'distracted' stage. I count my lucky stars. 

We do have the advantage of knowing her genetic background as the original breeder discovered her poor situation (someone bought her as a gift for someone who was NOT meant to own dogs) and bought her back. 

Lineage wouldn't have mattered to me, though. This was definitely a calling.


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## Jack's Dad

I agree with Lisa's posts and I still don't know what a BYB is.

Backyard is a terrible misnomer for lousy breeder. Almost all dogs are born in a backyard. That might be a 200 sq. ft. yard or 50 acres and tells you nothing about the breeders or their dogs.

I will give you an example of something that goes on all the time. 
We have friends who have a female GR that they love. A great pet. So in all sincerity these nice, community oriented folks decided to breed a few times for friends and others, so they too could share in these wonderful dogs. They did 2 and possibly 3 breedings but intended to stop.

I know 2 people who got their pups and they were completely happy with their dogs. 

They never had any intention of becoming "breeders".

This scenario plays out all over all the time.

How would the label makers determine what these people are?


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## wolfy dog

Jack's Dad said:


> Backyard is a terrible misnomer for lousy breeder.


I guess this solves the whole confusion.


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## Safzola

a lot of different views of people ..... still a very confusing though!.... i think its hard for everyone to agree on there views on BYB......


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## Whiteshepherds

Safzola said:


> a lot of different views of people ..... still a very confusing though!.... i think its hard for everyone to agree on there views on BYB......


Exactly! That's why the term is so ridiculous.


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## Jack's Dad

Whiteshepherds said:


> Exactly! That's why the term is so ridiculous.


You said it better than I did.


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## julie87

Now everyone is confused thanks a lot to those that said said good things about BYB. 

You are helping produce bad lifters by supporting BYB on this forum. Because people Anywhere in the world can read this... people who dont know any better...Congratulations. Thank you for catching mistake when I said ALL BYB are bad, apperantly some of you are ok with spread of these helpless puppies as long as you get a good deal. 

Like I said BYB is random people like u and me who breed their dogs on their own property while not knowing anything about health of litter and no money for the vet, if they had money they would be real breeders. It is VERY expenssive to be a real breeder. 

Is anyone here reading this a real breeder and can explain this better? Thanks




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## wolfy dog

Isn't the purpose of forums to share experiences and ideas? We all have our own opinions and life experiences. You may have very bad experiences with back yard (whatever that term means but enough of that) breeders but I know many sound mutts who otherwise would never have been born including some of my own from the past. Is seems like you are trying to be right and get upset when others don't share your opinion. Take a deep breath and relax; it's just a forum and we all love our dogs.


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## julie87

Yes I am upset because its not just my opinion it's a fact! You obviously do not care about those poor innocent puppies. 

I am not basing my opinion on just my dog. But MANY dogs. There are a ton of german shepherd that are locked up in a shelter because of idiot BYB. Have you ever been at a shelter? Have you ever seen puppies that are born in those conditions and then either buried alive when nobody buys them or dumped at the shelter or somewhere in the field. THIS is what the REALTY is, not cuddly cute pups that you accidentally found at BYB that turned out ok. 

Makes me sick that some of you are ok with BYB. Where is the real love for dogs? 


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## zivagirl

msvette2u said:


> Backyard breeders are the ones selling their dogs on Kijiji and Craigslist.
> Good breeders have goals in mind when they are breeding their dogs, such as using the "best of the best" to perpetuate the lines, backyard breeders have no goals in mind other than "hey these dogs are awesome and we want to make more awesome puppies".
> They are often especially interested in having their dogs "work" for them, to "earn their keep", so to speak, by producing puppies that can then be sold.
> Backyard breeders don't realize there is a whole host of health and temperament issues that can crop up when you don't pay attention to bloodlines or proper health testing.


Please....'some' BYB sell on Craigslist or Kijiji. I despise broad brush statements. That's like saying all rescues are loser dogs, all doctors are good, and all Christians are Republican.


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## zivagirl

julie87 said:


> Yes I am upset because its not just my opinion it's a fact! You obviously do not care about those poor innocent puppies.
> 
> I am not basing my opinion on just my dog. But MANY dogs. There are a ton of german shepherd that are locked up in a shelter because of idiot BYB. Have you ever been at a shelter? Have you ever seen puppies that are born in those conditions and then either buried alive when nobody buys them or dumped at the shelter or somewhere in the field. THIS is what the REALTY is, not cuddly cute pups that you accidentally found at BYB that turned out ok.
> 
> Makes me sick that some of you are ok with BYB. Where is the real love for dogs?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I happen to know a BYB. Her dogs live with her...in her home. They are all vetted for hips, knees, eyes, renal displasia, and heart. (LHasa)Excellent comportment. Healthy, loved and loving. Litters are planned, not a single pup has been murdered, or buried alive. No puppy leaves home before 9 weeks. They are all vet checked, chipped, wormed, vaccinated, and groomed prior to pick-up. She follows up on applications, does vet checks, visits the hime when possible. she also requires adopters to visit the pup often once the litter arrives. This is not only so that the prospective owners can get to know their puppy. it allows her to see how they act with the pups. She gives significant refunds for those who provide proof of neuter/spay. With all that she does, she doesn't make money - she breaks even.

This BYB is my sister. This is a BYB reality. Honest, Julia, the one-size-fits-all argument *almost* never works.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Who said they were "promoting" BYB's? I really see no one.

I do see some who have said they've gotten their dogs from byb's, but I don't see them "promoting" them. I didn't see any of them saying it was "ok", but they love their dogs and thats their business. 

A Byb'er to me, is a person breeding dogs that is not educated on health/temperament/breeding , may be in it for the money, may be as nice as your best friend, but uneducated in the 'responsible' ways of breeding and what it entails.

Puppymills, are a different ballgame, hobby breeders are a different ballgame. 

Not all german shepherds (and other dogs) in shelters are the result of BYB'ers..They come from all walks of life thru no fault of their own.

Julie by your own admission your dog came from a byb, so you, yourself were contributing to it. Does that make you love your dog any less because of where he came from?? I doubt it. 

Not everyone makes the right decisions in life and we all learn as we go, but all dogs deserve a good home.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Ziva, I don't think I'd consider your sister a byb'er


----------



## zivagirl

JakodaCD OA said:


> Ziva, I don't think I'd consider your sister a byb'er


I assure, she is considered a BYB. She doesn't show her dogs. She doesn't like most registered breeders. She doesn't open her home to inspectors because of the fact that 'officials' tend to look down on non-registered breeders. 

She breeds, not to achieve a certain look, but because she enjoys the breed and she believes that one shouldn't have to pay thousands of $$$ to enjoy them. This ticks off the 'real' breeders because they see her as horning in on their business.

But for all intents and purposes, in my eyes, she is the best breeder I have ever seen. Better than some who have a long, long history of breeding.


----------



## julie87

JakodaCD OA said:


> Who said they were "promoting" BYB's? I really see no one.
> 
> I do see some who have said they've gotten their dogs from byb's, but I don't see them "promoting" them. I didn't see any of them saying it was "ok", but they love their dogs and thats their business.
> 
> A Byb'er to me, is a person breeding dogs that is not educated on health/temperament/breeding , may be in it for the money, may be as nice as your best friend, but uneducated in the 'responsible' ways of breeding and what it entails.
> 
> Puppymills, are a different ballgame, hobby breeders are a different ballgame.
> 
> Not all german shepherds (and other dogs) in shelters are the result of BYB'ers..They come from all walks of life thru no fault of their own.
> 
> Julie by your own admission your dog came from a byb, so you, yourself were contributing to it. Does that make you love your dog any less because of where he came from?? I doubt it.
> 
> Not everyone makes the right decisions in life and we all learn as we go, but all dogs deserve a good home.


If you would read the whole thread you would see that I got my dog BEFORE I knew anything about the breed or breeders. It was a mistake that I made. My dog is 9 months old she is healthy she has some aggression even though she is socialized. Still working on her will see what she will grow up to be. I love my dog even though she is from BYB. And wouldn't trade her for a dog that cost $15k the highest quality trained ones. It's not about the price! 

Like I said not ALL BYB are bad people that are abusive to dogs but MOST ARE. Enough said.


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## zivagirl

julie87 said:


> Yes I am upset because its not just my opinion it's a fact! You obviously do not care about those poor innocent puppies.
> 
> I am not basing my opinion on just my dog. But MANY dogs. There are a ton of german shepherd that are locked up in a shelter because of idiot BYB. Have you ever been at a shelter? Have you ever seen puppies that are born in those conditions and then either buried alive when nobody buys them or dumped at the shelter or somewhere in the field. THIS is what the REALTY is, not cuddly cute pups that you accidentally found at BYB that turned out ok.
> 
> Makes me sick that some of you are ok with BYB. Where is the real love for dogs?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Know what? I support conscientious breeders, whether they are BYBers or not. And I have real love for dogs, pure bred, or not. I am not an elitist.


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## Jack's Dad

Ziva: 

This is why I mentioned my friend who breeds the Golden Retrievers.
It's almost the same as your sisters situation.

These are not horrible people who don't take care of their dogs or puppies.
The puppies are raised until sold in a very nice home with people who love and care for their dogs. They get their shots, worming an health checks.

In the U.S. if you follow all local ordinance and license laws it is perfectly legal. People have the right not to like it but not the right to make up a bunch of crap and call it fact.

Julie, you seem to have a lot of "stuff" swirling around in your head that somehow is *fact* only in your own mind.

How many dogs have you owned?
How many from reputable breeders and how would you know what one was? Probably, you just have the *facts* about reputable breeders in your head.

For the record I never heard the term BYB until I got on this forum a couple of years ago. I have heard so many versions from different posters, that I no longer care. I have also heard many versions of what a "reputable breeder" and I know longer care.

I have two GSD's right now so I'm not in the market but if I was, I believe at this point I could tell a good breeder from a lousy one. I now have my own standards and that is what I would go by.


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## spinkamor

julie87 said:


> If you would read the whole thread you would see that I got my dog BEFORE I knew anything about the breed or breeders. It was a mistake that I made. My dog is 9 months old she is healthy she has some aggression even though she is socialized. Still working on her will see what she will grow up to be. I love my dog even though she is from BYB. And wouldn't trade her for a dog that cost $15k the highest quality trained ones. It's not about the price!
> 
> Like I said not ALL BYB are bad people that are abusive to dogs but MOST ARE. Enough said.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


How do you know "most" BYB are abusive to dogs? 
Where are you getting these "facts" from?


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## FlyAway

julie87 said:


> A person who breeds dogs in their own backyard and sells them for money.


What? Certainly you are not saying that every hobby breeder is a BYB. 

Where do you think the best dogs come from? Fanciers and their connections/friends choosing complementary parents. Not a huge kennel with 50 dogs in cages.


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## zivagirl

spinkamor said:


> How do you know "most" BYB are abusive to dogs?
> Where are you getting these "facts" from?


I want my award right now for what I am about to do.


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## martemchik

There are some distinct problems when comparing byb GSD breeders to byb breeders of other breeds. Although I can't support just breeding dogs without showing or doing something to prove they are higher quality dogs than the average dog of that breed...when it comes to this forum (and our breed) we have what I would consider one of the hardest "breed tests" that many use as the dividing line between a reputable breeder and a byber.

I know there is some respect for the people that work their dogs in other venues...but I've personally felt the "second hand citizen" treatment because I don't work my dog in Schutzhund from more than a few of our members. I've also seen blanket statements about Schutzhund that were then recanted after a breeder that works their dogs in other sports mentioned something and the others didn't want to look like they were directly attacking said breeder.

Lets be serious...whenever someone asks what we think about a breeder they found online...step one is to see if they're health testing...and step two is usually working them in Schutzhund. If they don't do that, they don't get too many thumbs up.

Another issue is that the cheaper the dog...the easier it is to dump the dog. I've always noticed this about dogs...if you pay $200 for a dog, you probably don't have $1000 to spend on training the dog if it ends up with problems...so the solution is to dump the dog and get another $200 dog.

But I do want to mention this again:

The majority of dogs with problems are BYB dogs...but it doesn't mean the majority of BYB dogs have problems!!!

This is why people keep going back to BYB breeders. They get a dog for $200 with no problems...why not do it again 10 years later when they're looking for another one? Can you convince those people that a dog from a reputable breeder is 5 or more times better than a byb dog?


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## selzer

Oh, I don't know. Dogs have problems wherever they come from. The only thing ANY breeder can guaranty is that unless the dog is put down or dies from an accident, it will get sick and die. EVERY dog from EVERY breeder. When Adam and Eve bit into that apple-thingy, our world became a place where disease and ultimately death occurs to all of us, human and animal. And good breeders cannot stamp that out. 

Oh, they can perform a number of tests on their breeding stock, whether those tests have been proven sufficient or not, and pull from their rolls dogs that do not meet the criteria, in an effort to minimize the risk of a dog having serious issues for as long as possible. 

Maybe it is true that more BYB dogs have problems, than well-bred dogs from breeders who meet the criteria in the little spreadsheet. Maybe the higher incidents of any one dog being listed many times in the background of a dog makes for dogs that are less-healthy. Maybe the prevalence of certain names in any of the lines, carries with it a prevalence for certain issues as well. No dog is perfect, and sometimes dogs that do not have a problem carry a problem, and it is not until there is progeny, and perhaps progeny of the progeny before some of that is narrowed down to an individual dog. 

There is a lot of mis-information on this thread. Most pups are not born in back yards. Maybe bred in back yards. But if these breeders suddenly started breeding their dogs in the basement, or in the garage would they be basement breeders or garage breeders. Breeding is a messy business and it really doesn't do anyone any good to have this done in the living room. 

But the mis-information that is harmful is the "facts" that are not facts, like dogs sold for below $300 are from BYBs and dogs sold for over $1000 are ok. There are no short-cuts when you want to identify breeders you would or wouldn't go to. I probably wouldn't look for a pup on Craig's List or Gigi? but that doesn't mean that dogs advertised elsewhere, breeders who have elaborate websites, or advertise on dog lists, are perfectly ok, and it doesn't mean they are terrible either. 

What is important is to know what you want, what is most important to you; health screening, titles, show-accomplishments; and what you bottom line is: must take dogs back; must have pups vet-checked, etc. And find a breeder that does those things you find most important, who breeds the kind of dogs that you are looking for, and support them by buying your puppy from them. 

It would be oh so wonderful if bad-breeder = unhealthy or unstable pup or both, and good-breeder = healthy, stable pup. It would make things a lot more straight-forward. However, we are dealing with nature, and nature does not always act in a linear fashion: Ax + B = C. It is more like Ax^-t/T -2By^t + C where F(x) = whether or not your dog is going to have a problem and when. Good breeding can tweak the coefficients, and give you a better risk assessment, and maybe give you a warranty, but when breeders guaranty, run.


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## Safzola

WOW....... what a fantastic response im grateful for all your replies, its amazing how people are so stuck on what they believe and i respect that.  im learning a lot from this thread thank you all :hug::thumbup: zolas mam ursula


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## spinkamor

zivagirl said:


> I want my award right now for what I am about to do.


What?!

If you think all BYB are "horrible people and abuse dogs" and I deserve to be sworn at for believing otherwise, you're highly misinformed. I am, in no way, condoning or supporting BYB. I do believe that there are an abundance of dogs in shelters, and this world doesn't need more breeders. However, to sweep all BYB together in one category as "horrible abusive people" is widely inaccurate. Some breeders that are considered BYB love the breed, treat them very well, give them necessary veterinary attention, etc. You could call them irresponsible as there are already plenty of unwanted dogs out there, and that they don't "truly know the breed". But to go as far as to call most of them "horrible" and "abusive"? Not necessarily true.


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## Safzola

Oh my dear,what I`ve I done ,by asking this question, I too had never heard of BYB until I came on this site...I`m not even sure we use that term over here in the UK  , ....... What I can understand is ,there only seems to be TWO types of breeders ..BYB`s and the top breeders.....but I`m I wrong in thinking ,there are in fact several,let me name just a few..
1.Top breeders that DO all things BY THE BOOK,
2 Mill farms,
3 Dog breeders who do things BY THE BOOK,
4 Dog breeders who don`t do things BY THE BOOK,
5 The one -off breeder who just wants to have a litter to make extra cash.
6.The mis-take breeders ,who didn`t want a litter at all, but got one

I have named just 6,,so can someone tell me...who came up with classing them in only two classes......We need to get rid of this thing called BYB and maybe come up with another way of rating breeders,,,say 5star for top breeders right down to 0star for mills,,,,,.
NOTE..in 3 + 4 I do of course mean BYB`s 

forgive me if what I`ve said is stupid.Thank you all of a good thread,,hope you too are learning something new,,, :hug:


----------



## zivagirl

spinkamor said:


> What?!
> 
> If you think all BYB are "horrible people and abuse dogs" and I deserve to be sworn at for believing otherwise, you're highly misinformed. I am, in no way, condoning or supporting BYB. I do believe that there are an abundance of dogs in shelters, and this world doesn't need more breeders. However, to sweep all BYB together in one category as "horrible abusive people" is widely inaccurate. Some breeders that are considered BYB love the breed, treat them very well, give them necessary veterinary attention, etc. You could call them irresponsible as there are already plenty of unwanted dogs out there, and that they don't "truly know the breed". But to go as far as to call most of them "horrible" and "abusive"? Not necessarily true.


Um....you are preaching to the choir.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

> If you would read the whole thread you would see that I got my dog BEFORE I knew anything about the breed or breeders. It was a mistake that I made. My dog is 9 months old she is healthy she has some aggression even though she is socialized. Still working on her will see what she will grow up to be. I love my dog even though she is from BYB. And wouldn't trade her for a dog that cost $15k the highest quality trained ones. It's not about the price!
> 
> Like I said not ALL BYB are bad people that are abusive to dogs but MOST ARE. Enough said.


I did read the whole thread, and I guess your saying it's ok for "you" because you got your dog "before" you were educated?

I would expect anyone to love their animals no matter where they came from.

Have you taken a survey of BYB'ers to show us the percentage that are abusive to their animals vs non abusive?

Where do you think the majority of dogs, good breeders, bad breeders are bred? In the living room? 

I am not promoting byb'ers, we all have our own definition of 'what' they are. It boils down to buyers being EDUCATED.

Ziva, if your sister had a dog I was interested in, I wouldn't hesitate to buy from her or someone like her.


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## julie87

Some people need to read threads more than once to understand what the person is trying to say. 

I love my dog even though she is BYB dog

It wasn't ok for me buy from that BYB

And it doesn't matter where they are bred backyard or living room.

If you really read the thread and pay attention I have said ALL this before. So I'm not sure what you are implying Jacoda. 


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## zivagirl

julie87 said:


> Some people need to read threads more than once to understand what the person is trying to say.
> 
> I love my dog even though she is BYB dog
> 
> It wasn't ok for me buy from that BYB
> 
> And it doesn't matter where they are bred backyard or living room.
> 
> If you really read the thread and pay attention I have said ALL this before. So I'm not sure what you are implying Jacoda.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I support quality breeding coupled with quality care....regardless of where it might be found. You stated that anyone who supports ByB don't love dogs because all ByB are bad.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Julie I'm not going to get into a 'spat' with you regarding what you said and what I said. I *know* what I read

I read your posts, maybe you should re read what you wrote..and get some of your facts straight , they are your "opinion" and that is fine, but some of your "facts" are your "opinion"..

nuff said


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## llombardo

julie87 said:


> There are a ton of german shepherd that are locked up in a shelter because of idiot BYB. Have you ever been at a shelter? Have you ever seen puppies that are born in those conditions and then either buried alive when nobody buys them or dumped at the shelter or somewhere in the field. THIS is what the REALTY is, not cuddly cute pups that you accidentally found at BYB that turned out ok.
> 
> Makes me sick that some of you are ok with BYB. Where is the real love for dogs?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Yes I have been to a shelter and I have researched rescue groups. These dogs are there due to human error and not necessarily the breeder, whomever it was. Not all breeders will take their dogs back. What I see is a lot of owner surrenders, abandonment, strays, etc. The same story...lost job, moved, dog jumps on kids, not potty trained, don't have time for the dog, etc...how is this the breeders fault? Everything you are describing is puppy mills and guess what? even those dogs deserve a chance and the owners should rot for what they do to those dogs. My real love for dogs is exactly that, if I find a dog that needs help and I can offer that, I don't care where it came from.


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## shepherdmom

Originally Posted by julie87 
There are a ton of german shepherd that are locked up in a shelter because of idiot BYB. Have you ever been at a shelter? Have you ever seen puppies that are born in those conditions and then either buried alive when nobody buys them or dumped at the shelter or somewhere in the field. THIS is what the REALTY is, not cuddly cute pups that you accidentally found at BYB that turned out ok. 

Makes me sick that some of you are ok with BYB. Where is the real love for dogs



llombardo said:


> Yes I have been to a shelter and I have researched rescue groups. These dogs are there due to human error and not necessarily the breeder, whomever it was. Not all breeders will take their dogs back.


My pb Tasha from a well known breeder wound up in a shelter. Working a little bit with a rescue this past year, I've seen several dogs from breeders wind up in rescues. Getting a dog from a breeder doesn't prevent POS owners from dumping older dogs at shelters.


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## deldridge72

We are a label happy, judgemental society without the knowledge/or experience to understand what it is that they are speaking of.


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## spinkamor

zivagirl said:


> Um....you are preaching to the choir.


Um.. then I apologize for not understanding why "you should get an award" for giving me a ""


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## zivagirl

spinkamor said:


> Um.. then I apologize for not understanding why "you should get an award" for giving me a ""


You asked where Julie got her proof, or something like that. I now require oral surgery. . But I was good...yes, I was.


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## wolfy dog

shepherdmom said:


> Getting a dog from a breeder doesn't prevent POS owners from dumping older dogs at shelters.


To me everyone who creates a litter is a breeder. Just to throw a new topic in for discussion. This whole thing is getting silly and everything has been said already.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

julie87 said:


> Now everyone is confused thanks a lot to those that said said good things about BYB.
> 
> You are helping produce bad lifters by supporting BYB on this forum. Because people Anywhere in the world can read this... people who dont know any better...Congratulations. Thank you for catching mistake when I said ALL BYB are bad, apperantly some of you are ok with spread of these helpless puppies as long as you get a good deal.
> 
> Like I said BYB is random people like u and me who breed their dogs on their own property while not knowing anything about health of litter and no money for the vet, if they had money they would be real breeders. It is VERY expenssive to be a real breeder.
> 
> Is anyone here reading this a real breeder and can explain this better? Thanks


 

I would say a minority of "backyard breeders" are abusive to their dogs..relax the world isnt such a black and white place. As previously stated most ByBs are merely ignorant not malicious in their intent.

German Shepherds are quite capable of living outdoors, breeding outdoors and yes having and raising pups outdoors. Many "big" breeders have outdoor kennels. The dogs being outside does not indicate abuse.

I dont really care were the dog is bred what I care about is:

Titled Parents preferably on site
Hips and Elbows X rayed
Sanitary living conditions
***Pups that appear healthy and have drive***
Registration and pedigree
Written guarentees are nice but if the breeder doesnt want to honor them they arent worth the paper they are written on imo.

I may let one or some of these requirements slide if I know the breeder and know their dogs..of course I would expect to pay less, lol. 
People say it over and over again on here, when you actually see the dogs in action you get a very good perspective on what you like and dont like. Also, who you trust and dont trust... The talking stops when the tail gate drops so the saying goes. lol


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## Safzola

Well thank you everyone. I think that covers about everything :laugh::laugh:.......Unless you know different :wild::wild::wild:


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## selzer

spinkamor said:


> What?!
> 
> If you think all BYB are "horrible people and abuse dogs" and I deserve to be sworn at for believing otherwise, you're highly misinformed. I am, in no way, condoning or supporting BYB. I do believe that there are an abundance of dogs in shelters, *and this world doesn't need more breeder*s. However, to sweep all BYB together in one category as "horrible abusive people" is widely inaccurate. Some breeders that are considered BYB love the breed, treat them very well, give them necessary veterinary attention, etc. You could call them irresponsible as there are already plenty of unwanted dogs out there, and that they don't "truly know the breed". But to go as far as to call most of them "horrible" and "abusive"? Not necessarily true.


I am going to pick on this statement just a little. 

There are enough GSDs out there. There are dogs in shelters, yes. But we do need more breeders. We need more good breeders. Breeders who educate themselves on breeding, genetics, the breed, training, and are willing to go the whole nine yards. 

It is economics. Supply and demand. The demand is not for adult dogs, not usually. It is for puppies. Just because someone cannot find a puppy right away, does not mean they will go to a shelter and take home an adult dog. Some might. Others will search harder and perhaps wait for a puppy to be born. 

Every day that goes by, the breeders who are out there are getting older. Some of us will give it up, some will retire, some will die. But the demand for those puppies are not diminishing. It goes up and down with the state of the union, at least here in the states. I think that sometimes when times are hard the want for puppies in general goes down a little, and rebounds in that people want a formidable dog as a deterrent. When people are nervous about their jobs, or the future, they do not always want to bring home a puppy, or at least they may not want to pay the going rate. 

But, for every 1 person who is having a tough time, there are 9 people out there doing ok. And many of those people want puppies. Perhaps if it was more like 30% unemployment it would be a lot different. Even people who are currently working would be more afraid for their positions, and a lot fewer people would be bringing home a new pup. 

The short of it is that if younger people who are students of the breed do not step up to the plate and replace those breeders who are getting out it, for the only reason that there are dogs that are unwanted, demand for puppies will increase and the lowest forms of breeders will increase the number of bitches they breed to supply that demand. 

I don't have any concrete data, but there are a number of types of breeders. The top breeders, those who breed for show, for sport, or for working dogs supply only a fraction of the dogs out there. Some are larger, with several bitches, and litters per year, many are hobby-breeders who have just a few and maybe a litter in a year or one litter every few years. Not all of the pups will go to show, or sport, or working homes, the remainder will go to pet homes. Let's say they currently provide 20% of the puppies that are born per year. 

The vast majority of breeders, the Middle Breeders fall into the category that love their dogs, but are not a top breeder because they either have no goal -- work, show, sport; or they do not pay attention to one or more of the details, like genetics, staying within the standard, health certificates; or they simply had a litter because they wanted their bitch to have pups once, or because the failed to contain her properly; or many of your other red-flags that I am just not thinking of. The people who want a dog for show or sport or working are not going to these people for a puppy. However, the people who want a pet might get one here and having the pup might bring them to a higher level. Learning about the dog, training the dog, etc. How many people here say, "I got my dog from a BYB, and I love the dog, but the next time..." Evenso, let's say that they hold 50% of the market. 

The smallest group of breeders, I will call them the Low-Breeders, are those that have huge puppy farms. They have hundreds of dogs in barely sufficient conditions to insufficient conditions to sustain life. They sell through middlemen, pet stores, or internet sites. And they sell a LOT of puppies. I am just pulling numbers out of the air for ease of explanation because the actual percentages do not matter. What matters is what will happen if no new people become breeders. So, doing the math we are theorizing that they supply 30% of the GSD puppies out there. Again, the elite buyers are not going to go to them. Even the people who would go to a middle breeder are not going to purchase from these breeders unless the internet site masks them sufficiently. 

And now with AR and HSUS indoctrinating everyone against the act of breeding dogs no matter what the reason, we have fewer people who would probably make good decisions and do an excellent job, willing to go down that path. And as the breeders who have been doing this since the inception of the breed into the states (ok I am exaggerating a little), are going to their reward, if no one comes in with energy and passion and fills those shoes, the 20% will go down to nil. As people who formerly got dogs from middle-breeders and now want dogs from the top breeders, availability from said breeders will decrease, say to 2%, and some of the people who would buy from these will buy from middle breeders. 

Middle breeders are pretty static. These are individuals who can handle 1 - 3 litters in a year. Where one might have a second litter, another will have only one or none. Where one has learned their lesson and got their bitch fixed and is removed from the rolls, another thinks it might be fun to let their girl have a litter of puppies. They will continue to supply 50% of the market. If legislation affecting keeping intact pets becomes wide-spread, and if the demonizing of breeders knocks off some of these too this number will go down. 

But the number of puppies produced will not. The low breeders will pick up the slack. I really do not know what percentage of the market share these people hold, but I would much rather see people getting pets from people who fail in one or a few ways when working their way around the what-to-look-for-in-a-breeder chart, than to have these scoundrels producing higher percentages of the breed. 

The more of these dogs out there, the more the reputation of the GSD, in both health and temperament will go down. While it is nature, and a pup might defy the odds and come out of situations like this relatively unscathed, the chances of serious health and temperament problems from dogs kept in such conditions, and bred over and over, without any consideration to the closeness of the lines, or what ailments are present in the lines, the more will be affected. 

I do not think that people should aspire to be a middle breeder, but I think that people should strive to become a top breeder, and I think that we should not make statements like what the world does not need is another breeder. We need good breeders. We need breeders who are willing to learn by doing.


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## Debbieg

Great post Sue! :thumbup:


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## Safzola

Debbieg said:


> Great post Sue! :thumbup:


Here here


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## TxFig

shepherdmom said:


> and most importantly we need to be careful not to label someone a BYB just because they breed in their yard. Hobby breeders know their lines, have health certificates do temperament testing and know what they are doing. They may only breed a litter every few years. Their dogs are usually spoken for before the litter is even born and they are most times not as expensive as the big breeders.



I'm glad SOMEONE used this term --> Hobby Breeder.

It kind of illustrates a soap box issue for me; I detest the term "Backyard breeder". The reason being that it is a very, *VERY* poor description for what is being described. I really wish people (us) would quit using it.

I'm fairly new to the GSD world - but I have spent years (25+) in the Retriever world. On the retriever forums I used to frequent, it has become common to use 3 different terms to describe what kind of breeder a person is:

Professional - this is basically someone who makes their living by training, showing, trialing (retrievers), & breeding dogs. Even though they are "making money" off of the breeding aspect, these people overwhelmingly "do the right things" - no doubt because it makes the other aspects of their professional life better if they have quality dogs to work with . 

Hobby - this is someone who is doing all the same things as a professional, but only with their personally owned dogs. IOW, they don't have clients providing them an income. People in this category who breed are also "doing the right things". When they do breed, IF a litter makes money - if you count the cost of all the things they do to get their dog "breedable", it won't cover the expenses.


Trash breeder - yes, this is a very harsh term - and it's harsh on purpose. These are the people who are breeding their dogs for nefarious reasons such as 
"I want my kids to see the miracle of life"
"I can make a few bucks"
"I think my dog is so cute"
These are the puppies that get sold in newspapers, a Wal-Mart parking lot, or pet stores. Later on, these are the dogs that end up in a shelter.



And for the record, I do not subscribe to the idea that "there are already plenty of breeders out there". That is lumping all breeders into a single category - which is wrong on its face.
There are already too many Trash breeders.
There are not enough breeders who are "doing the right thing".


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## Cunningham GSDs

zivagirl said:


> Bottom line, breeders have the unfortunate tendency towards being mere humans. Some are better than others. Some of your 'top of the line ' breeders, whole not abusing or technically neglecting their dogs, the fact is, they show not because they love their breed, but because it means another notch on their belt and a higher askin g price for their litters. My ideal breeder must love her dogs FIRST, breed healthy stock, provide a happy living environment.


 
Well said, and I agree. All people who breed their dogs in the backyard are not bad and all breeders who have fancy facilities and breed 250 litters a year are not good!!!! The love of the breed, and attempt to improve it, the knowledge about the breed and the standard as well as faults, the love of their own dogs....not just a number with a title on him that lives in kennel number 32 at the fancy facility. Each breeder must be judged individually, not placed in a category. I would much rather buy a dog based on what I know about the breed and my own evaluation of the individual and the health of the bloodline than one that is judged by others based on preconceived ideas that are not based in fact.


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## WolfieWolf

We got our first GSD puppy, Baron, 25 years ago from a "BYB." They had a beautiful female GSD and wanted to breed her. They searched very diligently for a stud with the right lines and temperment, and were very diligent with the puppies -- socializing them etc. Baron was a beautiful and exceptional dog, intelligent and had a great temperment. This was the only time those people bred their girl, so I don't know if they were BYBs or Hobby Breeders, but I sure would do it again.


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## Debbieg

WolfieWolf said:


> We got our first GSD puppy, Baron, 25 years ago from a "BYB." They had a beautiful female GSD and wanted to breed her. They searched very diligently for a stud with the right lines and temperment, and were very diligent with the puppies -- socializing them etc. Baron was a beautiful and exceptional dog, intelligent and had a great temperment. This was the only time those people bred their girl, so I don't know if they were BYBs or Hobby Breeders, but I sure would do it again.



They were probably responsible breeders. Things were different 25 years go with the GSD. Now because of all the breeding to extremes, it takes much more planning to get a dog like Baron


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## WolfieWolf

Debbieg said:


> They were probably responsible breeders. Things were different 25 years go with the GSD. Now because of all the breeding to extremes, it takes much more planning to get a dog like Baron


Debbie, I didn't know that, but now that you say it, it makes sense. We had to look a lot harder and longer to find Buck (8 months old).


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## Bequavious

I don't really have anything to add since I think 5 pages is more than enough to fully cover this topic, but I did want to mention how impressed I am with this forum. I've been on other forums (not dog related) that were 90% extremist, and I was expecting to read a one-sided bashing of everything that is not elite. Instead I got to enjoy an intelligent discussion covering both sides and a wealth of useful information. Thank you!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Hinotori

It was a very rational, thoughtful discussion. 

Gives lots of things to think about on both sides of the topic.

My Athena came from a BYB that was only concerned that the parents (aged 5 and 8) didn't show any health issues and were good watch dogs for the farm. My hubby wants to get another GSD and we've been looking at one of the better breeders that isn't to far from us. So we are saving up for the dog and to make a larger pen. 

I probably lucked out on Athena. She's 2.5 and no issues other than she gets sick from wheat.


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## JackandMattie

TxFig said:


> I'm glad SOMEONE used this term --> Hobby Breeder.
> 
> It kind of illustrates a soap box issue for me; I detest the term "Backyard breeder". The reason being that it is a very, *VERY* poor description for what is being described. I really wish people (us) would quit using it.
> 
> I'm fairly new to the GSD world - but I have spent years (25+) in the Retriever world. On the retriever forums I used to frequent, it has become common to use 3 different terms to describe what kind of breeder a person is:
> 
> Professional - this is basically someone who makes their living by training, showing, trialing (retrievers), & breeding dogs. Even though they are "making money" off of the breeding aspect, these people overwhelmingly "do the right things" - no doubt because it makes the other aspects of their professional life better if they have quality dogs to work with .
> 
> Hobby - this is someone who is doing all the same things as a professional, but only with their personally owned dogs. IOW, they don't have clients providing them an income. People in this category who breed are also "doing the right things". When they do breed, IF a litter makes money - if you count the cost of all the things they do to get their dog "breedable", it won't cover the expenses.
> 
> 
> Trash breeder - yes, this is a very harsh term - and it's harsh on purpose. These are the people who are breeding their dogs for nefarious reasons such as
> "I want my kids to see the miracle of life"
> "I can make a few bucks"
> "I think my dog is so cute"
> These are the puppies that get sold in newspapers, a Wal-Mart parking lot, or pet stores. Later on, these are the dogs that end up in a shelter.
> 
> 
> 
> And for the record, I do not subscribe to the idea that "there are already plenty of breeders out there". That is lumping all breeders into a single category - which is wrong on its face.
> There are already too many Trash breeders.
> There are not enough breeders who are "doing the right thing".


This is a very good breakdown, and I second it. I am enjoying your posts, TxFig...welcome to the world of the German Shepherd Dog


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## Safzola

Let me just say a BIG thank you to everyone that has written on this thread,I did expect a good response but what I got was totally brilliant,a great discussion full of useful points and views from lots of great GSD lovers....So THANK YOU


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