# Advice Please! Jekyl and Hyde dog-serious behavior issues-First time poster- LONG



## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Our white GSD will be two years old in January. I absolutely adore him, but the problem is, I can't trust him. I need some advice ASAP b/c I am contemplating our options with him. He is currently on time out on his rug and I plan to keep 

I interact mostly with him because I am home all day and my husband works. We go for walks, play fetch, and play "go find." We have a 6 month old baby girl whom he has been very gentle with. 

He went to puppy school in a group setting where we worked on basic commands and focused soley on establishing with the dog, that we are the alpha. Our trainers saw signs of his dog aggression from day 1 and rejected him for group play time in his behavioral analysis when we boarded him for a weekend. However, he did improve his on leash behavior.


We stopped going to dog parks because of his dog aggression with some dogs. It broke my heart because he loved running full speed in all that land. 

We decided this past summer with having the new baby that we were going to seek out more professional training for him, so we can make sure he has the best training to succeed and be happy in our home. 

Our issues to the trainer were:
1. Dog agression (with most dogs actually)
2. Food and toy territorial aggression (growling)
3. His unexpected aggression. (if someone were to go pet while he is laying down, and depending on his mood he would growl)
4. His dominance aggession
5. His obession with attacking my windows to get at squirrels 

We decided on a boot camp where he stayed there for 2 week minimum with the potential of a 3rd week. He needed a third week. 

This trainer focused on only positive verbal feedback and when an action was a bad one he got "feedback" which was a yank of his training (pinch) collar. If he did it again he went to time out on a rug and if he did a 3rd time, he went to time out in his kennel. When he was on the rug, we was not allowed to come off until we released him with a "smooch, smooch (kiss noise)" and picked up his leash for 5 seconds prior to the smooch.

They also focused on personal space and human initiated contact with the dog. Dogs should not initiate contact and they should respect personal space. Which I do agree with.

In the two hours we spent there when we picked him up, we did not focus on any of our concerns. I think this trainer (although he was reccomended, I would never reccommend him) had a screw loose himself. Some of his philosophies: dog should always be in kennels when the owners are not home, other people should never ask or try to pet your dog, dogs should never go to dog parks). He did not allow for us to ask many questions and belittled us during the process. 

Coming home he did a much better job of recall, fetch/release, and he could stay on a rug for hours, the rug was a big whoop in my opionion. 

He still attacks my screens for squirrels, he still food/toy aggressive, tried to bite my dad today whom has been around since day one. My dad went to pet him outside after he just finished inhaling a piece of bone (which normally we don't give him anymore, but I felt like he could have a treat since his they do help cleaning his teeth). A month ago after finishing playing with a friend of mine for a half hour, she came up to pet him later as he was laying by be and the baby and he tried to bite her! 

Also nipped at my roofer as he was on his rug and we walked by. Granted the roofer did try to pet just as the dog rushed over to protect his food. But that doesn't justify anything! The roofer did admit that he knows better than to try and pet a dog when they are by their food, etc. 

In summary, biting my dad today, has infuriated me and made me sick. He has been my dad's buddy since we got him. I called my hippy trainer and he said I would need to come in and pay $60 to see how well we have followed through with his training at home. As if the thousand dollars I paid for his training isn't enough to have a free follow up session.

I am just at a loss. I love him to death and he is a very good protecter dog. I would hate to rehome him, but at the same time, I am so concerned about something worse happening down the road. I feel like we have tried everything. Like I said before though, he is like Jekyl and Hyde, most of the time he is great, but the fact that we know he can act out at any time scares us. 

I apologize for this being long (especially for a first time poster), but I needed to vent and I need some advice/support. 

Any thing is appreciated!
-Jenni


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

btw, he is still on his rug for time out from biting my dad...grr!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

All of these incidents sound like resource guarding issues. Since I've never had to deal with this type of issue with my own dogs, I can't offer any suggestions, but I'm sure some others here will be able to help.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

"doesn't justify anything"...while you're correct, that's not really how dogs "think", or behave...I know others will have advice, or you could get the book "Mine", and realize sending the dog elsewhere for training won't help him at home, where the guarding is occurring. 
Amazon.com: Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs (9780970562944): Jean Donaldson: Books

You'll need to also use NILIF and Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
I might add that instating rules like NILIF and MIND GAMES will certainly cause an increase in behavior until you see improvement.

For starters, put the dog UP away from anyone other than you at this point. A biting dog should not be allowed access to anyone other than the person working with him. He's a lawsuit waiting to happen.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

*What is NILIF?*



msvette2u said:


> "doesn't justify anything"...while you're correct, that's not really how dogs "think", or behave...I know others will have advice, or you could get the book "Mine", and realize sending the dog elsewhere for training won't help him at home, where the guarding is occurring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. I am going to look into that book. What does NILIF stand for?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

How much training have you done personally with your dog? What behaviors does he have rhat you can predictably get him to perform?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am afraid for your dog. He is a young adult now. I think that the right approach can turn your dog around, but I am afraid that you are too set in the whole dominance, alpha ideals. 

There are some good behaviorist/trainers out there, Patricia McConnel comes to mind, that might be able to show you a different approach. I would suggest getting a book by her or one of the other positive trainers that people here can provide names for. And after reading the book and starting with some of the leadership/management things on your own, you need to look for a good behaviorist/trainer who can help you to work with your dog. You have tried the 'I'm bigger and stronger than you' approach. Maybe your dog needs something different.

Personally, I think you were robbed by the guy who took your dog for three weeks, and I hope the dog can recover from it. It obviously seemed to have ramped things up rather than down. 

I suggest reading a book or two from good trainers first before finding a good professional, so that you will be at a better place to understand why they ask you to do certain things, and to question things that do not make sense to you, and to know if they are way off the page.

Remember too that growling is still a warning. The warning is something like, I don't want to bite you but if you come closer, I might have to. If you punish the growling, then you will teach the dog not to growl, meaning you will have a dog that goes right to the next step. 

If the dog is growling over a high value treat like a pig's ear or bone, if you punish the dog for growling over it, then he learns not to growl, but he does not lose the underlying fear that someone will take his high value treat from him. If you take his bone from him, then he has all the more reason to have this fear. Another idea is to give him a high value treat or bone, only when he is in his treat and he can eat it and everyone leaves him alone while he is in his crate. You can teach him to take his bone to his crate. Though it is hard to teach the baby not to play with whatever the dog has, so that has to be carefully managed. 

You need some help if you are going to save your dog, but I don't think the alpha/dominance language and ideology has helped with your pup.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

NILIF stands for Nothing In Life Is Free. It is a leadership model of sorts and helps you to build a relationship with the dog, where the dog understands that he needs to work for the good stuff, pets, praise, good spots. Lots of people have good luck with it. It is a good starting spot, but I think you need to find a good trainer, and you need to know more in order to know whether or not the trainer is good. People here can help you. Reading books can help you too.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Just glanced at the Mind Games link and it seems helpful already. I am going to put some more time into reading it tonight and start implementing. Thank you so much.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes, I'd recommend leadership rather than dominance (throw that idea out the window). The leader controls the resources, and "mind games" is a way to show your dog you are the leader. 
However, at your dog's age, again, this can be somewhat dangerous (he won't want to give up his leadership position he holds now) so you need to exercise due caution. 
Leadership is not dominance. You will definitely be hurt if you utilize traditional "alpha roll" or "dominance" exercises.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

For instance...


> If he doesn’t respect your “Off!” command, attach a houseline to move him when he doesn’t feel like moving.


 Do not ignore the part about the leash, and do not make this an emotional conflict. 
Avoid "known" triggers during this period. For instance, if the dog gets on the couch, don't let him even THINK about it. Keep commands short, clear, to the point, and don't invite a conflict.
Also, avoid giving him treats, toys, or anything else other than food, at this point, until things have began to calm down.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

selzer said:


> I am afraid for your dog. He is a young adult now. I think that the right approach can turn your dog around, but I am afraid that you are too set in the whole dominance, alpha ideals.
> 
> There are some good behaviorist/trainers out there, Patricia McConnel comes to mind, that might be able to show you a different approach. I would suggest getting a book by her or one of the other positive trainers that people here can provide names for. And after reading the book and starting with some of the leadership/management things on your own, you need to look for a good behaviorist/trainer who can help you to work with your dog. You have tried the 'I'm bigger and stronger than you' approach. Maybe your dog needs something different.
> 
> ...


I apologize if I seemed set in the dominance/alpha, I am not. I am certainly open to other diagnosis/remedies, if you will. I want to keep him and make him better, so any help is much appreciated. 

A PP mentioned some books and links to check out in which I am going to do stat. I agree with you, I felt robbed by my trainer. Your point about not elminating the growling is a good one, I did not think of it that way, but it makes good sense. The bone is a high value treat that he rarely gets and we refrained from giving him because of those issues with them. He just showed me that he is not ready to have those treats around other people. 

We don't leave his toys, so luckily, she can't go for those. But she does try to pull at his hair, which I watch carefully and encourage "gentle" when he is near the baby. I never leave them alone together. 

Hopefully, with advice, research, and focus more on daily training can help save him. Thank you


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Thank you!


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Samba said:


> How much training have you done personally with your dog? What behaviors does he have rhat you can predictably get him to perform?


He can perform, sit, stay, wait, lay down, heel, go find, release/drop. 

We walk daily on a loose leash and I keep him at my side. This is where the two places I went for training differ. The first place at when he was a pup in group training, focused on his head always being behind our hip and not crossing that plane. It focused on redirecting him before he failed, stepping in front of him, turning him around if got a little ahead, having his eye contact be on you. 

This other trainer who had him for 3 weeks informed us we need to give up the control. He tried to make a joke that I need to give up the control with my husband, so he has a little freedom to make his own choice. I had to bite my tongue b/c he does not know me at all. Anyway, he said as long as he is on a loose leash, who cares where his body positioning is in reference to our body when we are on a walk. So now, I do a combination of both. It is a loose leash, I keep him at my side, but I am not particular if he gets in front of my hip. What do you think?


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Yes, I'd recommend leadership rather than dominance (throw that idea out the window). The leader controls the resources, and "mind games" is a way to show your dog you are the leader.
> However, at your dog's age, again, this can be somewhat dangerous (he won't want to give up his leadership position he holds now) so you need to exercise due caution.
> Leadership is not dominance. You will definitely be hurt if you utilize traditional "alpha roll" or "dominance" exercises.


Leadership/mind games sounds like the direction we should go in.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Some of those things can be very non-confrontational and those are the things I'd do. 
Our puppy, for instance, with none of the issues yours has, but an attitude that he "owns the joint" (we're being proactive) is now spending time on a leash. It's non-confrontational and those are the things I'd concentrate on for now with your dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jflo53 said:


> Our white GSD will be two years old in January. I absolutely adore him, but the problem is, I can't trust him. I need some advice ASAP b/c I am contemplating our options with him. He is currently on time out on his rug and I plan to keep
> 
> I interact mostly with him because I am home all day and my husband works. We go for walks, play fetch, and play "go find." We have a 6 month old baby girl whom he has been very gentle with.
> 
> ...


 
Unfortunately for both you and your dog, sounds like your "trainer" was (to put it politely) - a QUACK! 

A TIME OUT for a dog acting up!

Ridiculous!!! and doesn't help as you have seen.

I don't believe that curing resource guarding will be all that difficult to a professional trainer/behaviorist if they have had experience in dealing with that.

Our trainer (experienced in training K9's and ScH) effectively trained our dog to get along (tolerate!) with another adult male GSD whom he has fueded with in our weekly GSD group every week for a LOOOONG time! They are not best buds but can at least be in the same small group without my dog jumping on him! 

So take heart - it can be done (by a pro!).

I would recommend finding a trainer who can handle aggressive dogs (maybe someone on the forum can help in your area?).


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jflo53 said:


> He did not allow for us to ask many questions and belittled us during the process.


Wow. :angryfire: Wish you'd found us sooner, you could have saved a lot of money and avoided enriching this jerk. 

Here is an explanation of NILIF: Nothing in Life is Free

The Shirley Chong stuff is great too. Unfortuntely, it sounds like you struck out with both trainers.

Where your dog walks in relation to you is something I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about. As long as he walks nicely on a loose leash without pulling, who cares if his head is next to your leg or his shoulder is, or his rib cage? It's really a personal choice thing, and as long as you're comfortable with the way he walks with you on leash that's good enough. Letting his head get a couple inches ahead of you isn't going to make him think he can take over the household.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree that the time out is not a good thing to do for punishment, but it does not hurt to train the dog to stay for a time, or to go to his place. That will help a little in leadership. The dog knows what to do, you tell him to do it, he does. Good. You release, he sees that you control that. Good. It may seem to work somewhat but not for the reasons that you are thinking it works.

I am glad that you seem dedicated to find something that will work for your dog. He is young and that is good, not that you cannot teach an older dog, but the longer a dog gets away with inappropriate behavior the more set and difficult it can be to change it. 

There is also the possibility that a lot of the the behaviors you are seeing as dominant or protective can be fear based. Some dogs shake and cower when they are afraid. Others bark, growl, stick their hair up, snarl, snap and even bite when they are afraid. They are so afraid that they try to get the fearful thing to go away. We do not know if this is the case with your dog, because we cannot evaluate him. A good trainer/behaviorist can. When we know why a dog is reacting, we can work on the source of the problem, which will help with the symptoms.

Also, if it is insecurity that causes your dog to act aggressively, then doing something like agility classes -- full body work out, all positive, lots of treats, lots of praise, and accomplishments WILL both build their own confidence AND build the bond of trust with you. Lots of people have a lot of luck with problems by training agility. 

Just a few thoughts.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

jflo53 said:


> Our white GSD will be two years old in January. I absolutely adore him, but the problem is, I can't trust him. I need some advice ASAP b/c I am contemplating our options with him. He is currently on time out on his rug and I plan to keep
> 
> I interact mostly with him because I am home all day and my husband works. We go for walks, play fetch, and play "go find." We have a 6 month old baby girl whom he has been very gentle with.
> 
> ...


Just curious, how old was he when you got him? What was his history -- ie, was he taken from his littermates early? How old was he when you tried puppy class? You said the trainers saw "aggression from day 1" but what does that mean? Was he scared, attacking, ??? Did they tell you more or were you there to see the behavior? (Sorry, I'm a little confused about whether you were there to see whatever it was.)

When did the resource guarding begin? Early? And how did you deal with it? Has there been anything that's happened to (indirectly) "teach" him to guard his food/toys? Ie, you took his food away while he was eating, another dog took it, etc. 

Sorry for all the questions . Just curious about the clues and the way this behavior progressed over two years' worth of time.

You don't deserve to be treated like the trainer treated you. 

Definitely get more info on NILIF; it is a great thing, but I'm sure your dog will not care for it one bit.

A pro is definitely a major step in the right direction!!!


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Unfortunately for both you and your dog, sounds like your "trainer" was (to put it politely) - a QUACK!
> 
> A TIME OUT for a dog acting up!
> 
> ...


Yes, we felt the same way, he was a quack! In fact there is a K9 training facility within 5 miles. I wish we would have went there. We might have to consider still going there. It is just really unfortunate that we spent so much money and it was practically a waste. Thank you for your words of encouragement!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

How much exercise does he get? A walk is not enough. Does he get to run hard? How much is he mentally challenged on a daily basis? Does he get fatigued every day?


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

chelle said:


> Just curious, how old was he when you got him? What was his history -- ie, was he taken from his littermates early? How old was he when you tried puppy class? You said the trainers saw "aggression from day 1" but what does that mean? Was he scared, attacking, ??? Did they tell you more or were you there to see the behavior? (Sorry, I'm a little confused about whether you were there to see whatever it was.)
> 
> When did the resource guarding begin? Early? And how did you deal with it? Has there been anything that's happened to (indirectly) "teach" him to guard his food/toys? Ie, you took his food away while he was eating, another dog took it, etc.
> 
> ...


He was the last of his littermates to be picked up. We took him to group classes at seven/eight months, we wanted to go earlier, but he had demodectic mange, was neutered, and then got his rabies after he healed. So, I do think that he was not socialized early enough.

In the group classes, when they were released from the heel command, he would go towards the other dogs and try and put his paw on them and almost pounce on him, even when the other dog was laying on its back in submissive position according to the trainer. He was always difficult to lay down into a submissive positive. The trainer would pet his neck and stare him in the eye and try to lay him onto his side (not forcefully), and Oliver would always resist. He almost never let us lay him onto his side. The trainer would talk a lot about body positioning with the dog.

I would say we saw the resource guarding start around six months of age. We always touched him when he ate and we made the mistake of standing behind him. Our own lack of knowledge. That is probably where the growling first occurred. We learned at his first training to make him sit and stand with our weight forward and look him in the eye. Once he looks the other way, it was okay for us to allow him to eat. We usually take any leftovers away after 20 minutes. But if I should get side tracked and there is still left in the bowl, as soon as my husband gets home, he runs over to his bowl and starts inhaling. Now that we know he does that, we try to catch him before he goes to the bowl and make him sit.

And with the bones/treats/toys, I am not sure when it started. Probably around six months, he never did it when he was super young. So we avoided that trigger by never giving him the high value treats. We have also been keeping his toys put away until we give it to him to play with at that moment. 

Now that I think of it yes, we did have an experience around 7 months when we shared a cabin with our family. My brother in law's dog was allowed to roam all over the house while we were eating (under the table/beg) and we were trying to train Oliver to stay on his bed/blanket when we eat. It was a very small, shared spaced, and I think it was when we started seeing the aggression occur.

I am certainly going to look more into NILIF. I am open to try anything at this point. For the most part, the behavior is not targeted toward me, but others. I just want to do everything I can to work on him.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Wow. :angryfire: Wish you'd found us sooner, you could have saved a lot of money and avoided enriching this jerk.
> 
> Here is an explanation of NILIF: Nothing in Life is Free
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link, I am looking into it. Yes, I wish I posted more a long time ago. I was aware of the site, but I never really had much time to register and post.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BTW what you did is incredibly common. We hear all the time "I always stick my hand in his/her bowl to make sure they aren't food aggressive". Which in turn makes them want to guard more.
Use the hand-feeding method for now - always making the dog sit first.
Also get a big kong toy and put his meals in there, making eating a non-threatening game.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

He gets a walk in at least every other day. We used to do daily walks until our little one was born. Walk or no walk, I always play with him in the back yard. I would say for at least 10-15 minutes. I actually have told my husband before, that an agility course might be good for him. We play fetch now that he does better at releasing. But he often has this, "chase me, come and get it" attitude. Which I do not do.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Yes, that is the one benefit we got from the boot camp training. When I do have visitors or if we are eating, we can walk him to any rug and he will stay there until we release him. So one positive 

I think he needs an evaluation. And I almost think I would have gone to my original trainer for his boot camp training, however, when I asked him at group classes what I could do to improve his dog aggressiveness, he barely gave me anything. I left in tears that day, b/c you would have thought he would have wanted the additional business to train him. 

Thank you for your kind words.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> BTW what you did is incredibly common. We hear all the time "I always stick my hand in his/her bowl to make sure they aren't food aggressive". Which in turn makes them want to guard more.
> Use the hand-feeding method for now - always making the dog sit first.
> Also get a big kong toy and put his meals in there, making eating a non-threatening game.


That makes me feel a little better! Thanks for all your posts. I ordered the Mine book just now


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jflo53 said:


> We learned at his first training to make him sit and stand with our weight forward and look him in the eye. Once he looks the other way, it was okay for us to allow him to eat.


No offense, but that is a really dumb idea, lol! It sounds like this guy was really into dominance. There are much better ways to show your leadership than attempting to dominate your dog, and in fact, you should be reinforcing eye contact as a good thing, not staring him down until he gets uncomfortable and looks away. I don't get the reasoning behind this at all. :thinking: Intimidating him until he submits will make him lose trust in you (already happened) and make him insecure (already happened) - secure dogs who trust their owners to be fair and consistent do not need to guard valuable resources from them. I really think the problems you're having now are directly related to the bad training advice you've been given.

I'd stop this practice immediately, put the bowl on the floor, and when he looks at you, mark it ("yes!") and release him to eat. Don't loom over him! Don't stare him down! Keep your expression soft and your demeanor relaxed. Sitting and eye contact should make good things happen for him, so he WANTS to look at you. 

What I do when I first bring home a new puppy is put on my treat bag and clicker. When puppy looks at me, I click and treat. The more puppy is rewarded for attention, the more he offers it up. The more attention he gives me and the better his focus, the easier it is to train him, because in order to teach him ANYTHING you have to first have his attention! By the time my dogs get into puppy class they'll usually lay on the floor and stare at me for hours as long as I toss them a treat occasionally. And once I'm getting any kind of behavior offered up consistently, it's easy to put it on cue and then you've got a trained behavior. 

We have some sticky threads that you should read and a couple of recent discussions that might be helpful. Let me go find them for you.....


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

jflo53 said:


> He gets a walk in at least every other day. We used to do daily walks until our little one was born. Walk or no walk, I always play with him in the back yard. I would say for at least 10-15 minutes.


I don't think that's enough exercise to really tire out a young GSD.

My boy Mauser is 3 yrs old and he gets 4-5 trips out to our 2 acre field each day. In the field he gets 10 - 15 minutes to sniff and go to the bathroom, then we use the Chuck-it to throw his ball as far as we can for about another 20 - 30 minutes. We try to get him to the point where HE stops before we do!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here you go: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...92-aggression-over-high-value-food-bones.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ant-understand-become-better-pack-leader.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...hods/89990-how-do-you-define-being-alpha.html


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

It seems like he has enough issues that I would be concerned for you baby. i don't care how gentle he has been. If your baby gets near him when he is guarding or reactive or whatever else may be going on he could seriousl hurt your child. Please keep him away until such time as he is safe.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> It seems like he has enough issues that I would be concerned for you baby. i don't care how gentle he has been. If your baby gets near him when he is guarding or reactive or whatever else may be going on he could seriousl hurt your child. Please keep him away until such time as he is safe.


:thumbup: definitely agree. Things happen so quickly and as the baby gets older the dog may see the child differently. 
The links Debbie posted are great and I also think more exercise is needed. Even on my 12 hour work days Benny gets a 3 mile training/walk in the am and 30 minutes of play in the evening. He gets a lot more Fri- Sun when I am off. 

Maybe someone from the forum in your area could recommend a good trainer.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

even with the issues you're having with your dog
doesn't mean he won't make a good family dog.
you'll probably have to watch him closely when you
have guest and tell your guest not to touch him.
when you have guest put the dog somewhere
so he's not in contact with your guest. i don't
agree with you about dogs initiating contact.
i think that's one way they communicate with us.
i hope everything works out for you and your dog.
stick with the training.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

_He was the last of his littermates to be picked up. We took him to group classes at seven/eight months, we wanted to go earlier, but he had demodectic mange, was neutered, and then got his rabies after he healed. So, I do think that he was not socialized early enough. _


Not a bad thing... pups learn so much from littermates. I wouldn't think seven months was all that late, if you'd been working at home to establish your relationship.

_In the group classes, when they were released from the heel command, he would go towards the other dogs and try and put his paw on them and almost pounce on him, even when the other dog was laying on its back in submissive position according to the trainer. He was always difficult to lay down into a submissive positive.* The trainer would pet his neck and stare him in the eye and try to lay him onto his side (not forcefully), and Oliver would always resist.* He almost never let us lay him onto his side. The trainer would talk a lot about body positioning with the dog._

This seems wierd. Maybe I am not understanding. Why was the other dog in a submissive position (on its back) anyway? Weren't the dogs all on leash? So how could she have gotten close enough to raise a paw or anything.? Was she trying to play maybe? This CRAP about the trainer giving your dog the stare-down, to me, is absolute garbage. I'd have fired him on the spot! Geesh, did they try to teach the alpha roll, too?  You got a bum deal here, I think.

_I would say we saw the resource guarding start around six months of age. *We always touched him when he ate and we made the mistake of standing behind him*. Our own lack of knowledge. That is probably where the growling first occurred. *We learned at his first training to make him sit and stand with our weight forward and look him in the eye.* *Once he looks the other way, it was okay for us to allow him to eat.*_ 

You received some horrible advice there.  Is this the same trainer who insisted on staring him down as he put the dog on its side? Ugh. It isn't a bad thing at all to make the dog sit prior to being given his food. I always do this. I control the food, BUT, once it has been released, it is HIS FOOD. I do not mess with it in any way. I don't crowd him. The dog seems to have been trained to feel threatened to eat. 

_And with the bones/treats/toys, I am not sure when it started. Probably around six months, he never did it when he was super young. So we avoided that trigger by never giving him the high value treats. We have also been keeping his toys put away until we give it to him to play with at that moment._ 

So started around the same time. Makes sense. Well now you have a secret weapon, so to speak... High value treats require him to perform to get them. Make him sit, shake, stay, whatever, give the treat and let him have it. As far as toys, maybe different story, since he likely won't "drop" it? Does he growl/fight you when you want to take the high value toy away?

_Now that I think of it yes, we did have an experience around 7 months when we shared a cabin with our family. My brother in law's dog was allowed to roam all over the house while we were eating (under the table/beg) and we were trying to train Oliver to stay on his bed/blanket when we eat. It was a very small, shared spaced, and I think it was when we started seeing the aggression occur._

So around 6-7 months this behavior began. You got crap-poor training advice and it was maybe reinforced by the cabin thing. 

_I am certainly going to look more into NILIF. I am open to try anything at this point. For the most part, the behavior is not targeted toward me, but others. I just want to do everything I can to work on him._

I don't want to come off as offensive! at all! but it so sounds like due to some really rotten training advice, you've been kinda hijacked.  Start over. I know you've spent a lot of money, but if you can afford to, I'd put more money into this and get a solid trainer who doesn't treat you like an idiot. Make sure they understand the history.

For now, though, when feeding, don't do any of that junk you've been told to do. Make him sit, shake, whatever, put the food down and BACK OFF. I feel you've been really hijacked to do almost everything that would ensure resource guarding. (Take my advice for the .02 it is worth, though.)

Hang in there, but please do be careful.

Oh and PS - 15 minutes of exercise every other day is just not even close, not even in the stratosphere, of what that dog needs for exercise. Again, not trying to be offensive, but it just isn't even vaguely close.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I would agree 100% about the exercise thing although I do know how difficult it can be with a new baby in the house as well. That is where the mind games will help tire him out without pushing you too much. 

Ideally though, the more you can get him out for some physical exercise, the easier the training will be. It's also in incredible way to rebuild his trust in you. Walks are great opportunities to take a bag of treats and tire him out while rewarding calm and trusting behavior. Plus, I always seem to relax on walks, which the dogs really seem to appreciate  

Good luck and I would also second the many suggestions for finding a better trainer!! Keep us posted!


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

If he is so quick with his personalities, then your baby is liable to get bit if she touches the dog at the wrong time, crawls by him and sets him off, etc.

I worry about your baby.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I think this trainer (although he was reccomended, I would never reccommend him) had a screw loose himself. Some of his philosophies: dog should always be in kennels when the owners are not home, other people should never ask or try to pet your dog, dogs should never go to dog parks).


Did you send your dog to Leerburg for training?

Honestly, I don't think that some of the advice you've listed above is bad advice. 

It's a good idea to keep your dog kenneled or crated when you're not home until you can trust them to be loose in the house safely without getting into mischief. It helps keep the dog and your home safe and prevents you from coming home to that $2,000 vet bill you'd have to pay if the dog chews up and ingests your pillows. 

And yes, I agree with the trainer that dog parks are generally a bad idea. I think you'll find that very few experienced dog owners think dog parks are great - especially since the majority of dog parks have no supervision, allow big and small dogs to play together, and often are used by a lot of ignorant owners who see nothing wrong with their dogs' aggressive behaviors toward other dogs. Just check out some of the dog-park-related threads on this forum and you'll see why they're not a good idea.

Overall, I think your dog absolutely does not get enough exercise. Playing fetch is great, but that's only 10 to 15 minutes of exercise in the day. Shepherds are an athletic, energetic breed - they need more than 15 minutes of playing ball and walks every other day. That amount just doesn't cut it.

I also think you've received some very bad information from trainers in the past regarding your resource guarding behaviors, and I honestly think that most of the aggressive behaviors you're seeing are resource guarding behaviors. 

I would go back a couple of steps and begin at the bottom. Start by hand-feeding your dog his kibble instead of putting down the bowl, and using (and reinforcing) NILIF for everything throughout the day by having him do things in order to get things - like having to sit before he gets to go out the door, for example.

I think the rug idea is actually a very good training method - it's essentially a boundary stay and it can be very helpful to have a place to send your dog (and have him stay there) when you need him to be out from underfoot, for example. I use the boundary stay with my dog when we're eating or when we have guests over and I don't want her to bother them. There's absolutely a valid use for it. Not so much as a "time out" but as a way to set your dog up to do well.

Overall, I think where I would go from here, aside from going back to basics as mentioned above, would be to find a behaviorist to work with, NOT a trainer, to get an evaluation of the behavior and suggestions on how to manage them.

At this point, I would absolutely agree that your dog is a danger to your child and the two of them should never be alone unsupervised, and you should be especially careful having your child around your dog's food, toys, treats, etc.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

I would not consider this dog to be aggressive. Aggressive is a word people throw around too often This dog considers himself a dominant member of your household. Something a lot of people don't understand--behaviors should not be considered the goal. The dogs relationship to you and other people is the goal. The dog's attitude suggests he believes he is equal to you, meaning he isn't respecting you and your family. Doesn't matter if he is growling over food, a toy, a place on the sofa, whatever. A trainer can't turn this around. The dog may have the utmost respect for the trainer and never consider growling at him. You have to do this, you and the other key members of your house must get this dog to respect you. You can use a trainer to help you--but you personally have to show the dog he can never, never, ever growl at you or anyone in your home. Time out on a rug is pretty much a joke 

If you are the least bit timid about this, IMHO, you should not keep the dog. You have to fearlessly be all over this situation the second the faintest suggestion of a growl comes from this dog. What if your child wanders too close while he is in a guarding mood? What if he decides her animal crackers are his? Give him to somebody with experience in dominant dogs.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

You've gotten some GREAT responses thus far... most are right on the mark. Though you tried to do things right from the start, your "trainer" screwed up, MAJORLY. The trainer set this dog up to fail. It's time to start ALL over with a new philosophy, and that won't be easy. 

You will want to look for a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist: Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists If you are anywhere near Wisconsin, take selzer's recommendation of Patricia McConnell. She is AMAZING. 

I highly recommend you read her book, The Other End of the Leash. You will be exclaiming to yourself at nearly every page at what horrible mistakes yoru trainer has instructed you to make.

Patricia McConnell does utilize the technique of "putting pressure" on a dog by leaning your weight forward, but she emphasizes that you must *immediately* take the pressure off once the dog yields. She never advocates looking a dog in the eye. That's a direct challenge and is just plain rude.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Marnie said:


> This dog considers himself a dominant member of your household.


Simply based on the information we have so far, I would definitely NOT jump to that conclusion. The problems the OP describes could just as easily have been created or at least exacerbated by the bad training advice they got from people they trusted to know what they were doing and paid to help them. 



> He went to puppy school in a group setting where we worked on basic commands and *focused soley on establishing with the dog, that we are the alpha. Our trainers saw signs of his dog aggression from day 1 *and rejected him for group play time in his behavioral analysis when we boarded him for a weekend.


How old was he when he went to puppy school? What were the signs of "dog aggression" that the trainer thinks he saw? Could it have simply been reactivity due to fear or over excitement in a new, highly arousing environment? Do we trust this trainer to know the difference? I sure don't. 

How many puppy classes do you know of where the main goal is to establish yourself as alpha? That right there seems like it might screw up a perfectly nice puppy who is doing nothing more than acting like a typical GSD puppy can be expected to act until they've had some training and been taught some basic manners. I've taken many puppy classes with my dogs, and we focused on socialization, handling desensitization, bite inhibition, and basic stuff like sits and downs, recalls, and walking nicely on leash. Dominance and alpha status were never even part of the discussion.



> Our issues to the trainer were:
> 1. Dog agression (with most dogs actually)
> 2. Food and toy territorial aggression (growling)
> 3. His unexpected aggression. (if someone were to go pet while he is laying down, and depending on his mood he would growl)
> ...


1. Could be reactivity, not aggression
2. Could be resource guarding caused by bad "training", not aggression
3. Who knows?
4. What exactly does that mean? 
5. My dogs are obsessed with the squirrels in my yard too, and they're not the only ones - I know lots of dogs that go nuts over squirrels. Not that big a deal, IMO.

I do agree that at this point, the relationship is a problem and needs to be repaired.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> She never advocates looking a dog in the eye. That's a direct challenge and is just plain rude.


Staring can be seen by the dog as confrontational, so I wouldn't do it to a dog I don't know, but with my own dogs I work on building a strong foundation of attention and focus right from the very beginning, so they enjoy eye contact - it's one of the ways they can ask me for something they want. 

Excellent book recommendation, BTW, I love Patricia McConnell!


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Excellent book recommendation, BTW, I love Patricia McConnell!


You should've seen how excited I was when I realized she lives in the same state as me (albeit 8-9 hours away).


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

I have a friend who is a Dog behaviorist and she is completely against the whole alpha thing. she said if you start treating a dog using "dog psychology" aka "Cesar's way, he starts seeing you as a dog and therefore will try to challenge you for alpha status. 

She's a firm believer of positive reinforcement and on not setting a dog up for failure (ie: working at a level where the dog is comfortable and work up from there). So using all this alpha dominance thing is not a good way to rehabilitate.
Your dog does not need a trainer, he need a behaviorist.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

A behaviorist is a good route. There you can learn protocols to use to address the issues. Training by you will likely be part of it. The important part of that is good training builds the relationship.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

nitemares said:


> I have a friend who is a Dog behaviorist and she is completely against the whole alpha thing. she said if you start treating a dog using "dog psychology" aka "Cesar's way, he starts seeing you as a dog and therefore will try to challenge you for alpha status.
> 
> She's a firm believer of positive reinforcement and on not setting a dog up for failure (ie: working at a level where the dog is comfortable and work up from there). So using all this alpha dominance thing is not a good way to rehabilitate.
> Your dog does not need a trainer, he need a behaviorist.


I think "alpha" definetly works when done appropriately. I.E. means that I am in charge and you (the dog) does what I tell him to do when i tell him to do it. 
Definetly doesn't mean that I hurt the dog in any way - just that I enforce whatever i tell him to do and am consistent and fair.

As far as "setting him up for failure:, THAT is exactly what needs to be done but only once you are absolutely convinced that your dog knows what is expected of him. I.E. teach him the "sit" ommand at home or in the back yard and with you right next to him. Once he really knows it and does it consistently in these low stress and low distraction environments (hence he "knows" it); THEN we introduce an increasing level of distractions (people, dogs, environment and slowly increase the distance between you and him). VERY gradually and one thing at a time we put more distractions in and if we do a good job - VOILA! we end up with a dog who will obey under almost any situation!

If we never "set him up with the opportunity to fail" then we don't know if he will obey under varying situations and we have not completed the training in my mind. BTW, this approach is called "Proofing" and to my mind is an absolute necessity!


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Thank you all so much for the replies, I am looking through all of them as we speak.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Simply based on the information we have so far, I would definitely NOT jump to that conclusion. The problems the OP describes could just as easily have been created or at least exacerbated by the bad training advice they got from people they trusted to know what they were doing and paid to help them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to add to my original post, we did work on the basic commands as well. Heel was one of the most important and the others followed. But the trainer's primary point was to establish the respect and that we are the leader. 

You are right, it could be reactivity not aggression. The more I am researching with the help of you posters makes me really think that it is more resource guarding than anything. 

Glad to hear your dog goes nuts over the squirrels too! I guess what I mean with the dominance used to be him getting in our personal space and putting his paw up on us. I would say he is much better at that since his training.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> You've gotten some GREAT responses thus far... most are right on the mark. Though you tried to do things right from the start, your "trainer" screwed up, MAJORLY. The trainer set this dog up to fail. It's time to start ALL over with a new philosophy, and that won't be easy.
> 
> You will want to look for a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist: Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists If you are anywhere near Wisconsin, take selzer's recommendation of Patricia McConnell. She is AMAZING.
> 
> ...


I am near WI, northeast IL, so I will definitely look into Patricia McConnell. Thank you for the link of certified behaviorists. I am going to pursue that as well. You all are great, thank you. By the way, I am still getting used to the layout of the message board thing


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Marnie said:


> I would not consider this dog to be aggressive. Aggressive is a word people throw around too often This dog considers himself a dominant member of your household. Something a lot of people don't understand--behaviors should not be considered the goal. The dogs relationship to you and other people is the goal. The dog's attitude suggests he believes he is equal to you, meaning he isn't respecting you and your family. Doesn't matter if he is growling over food, a toy, a place on the sofa, whatever. A trainer can't turn this around. The dog may have the utmost respect for the trainer and never consider growling at him. You have to do this, you and the other key members of your house must get this dog to respect you. You can use a trainer to help you--but you personally have to show the dog he can never, never, ever growl at you or anyone in your home. Time out on a rug is pretty much a joke
> 
> If you are the least bit timid about this, IMHO, you should not keep the dog. You have to fearlessly be all over this situation the second the faintest suggestion of a growl comes from this dog. What if your child wanders too close while he is in a guarding mood? What if he decides her animal crackers are his? Give him to somebody with experience in dominant dogs.


Thank you for you honest opinion. I want to seek out help and work on him more first. You guys have a lot of good advice. Sometimes I do feel that he would be better with someone who specializes in that. But at the same time, 90% of the time, he is great. 

Time out on a rug was a joke, an expensive joke.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

AbbyK9 said:


> Did you send your dog to Leerburg for training?
> 
> Honestly, I don't think that some of the advice you've listed above is bad advice.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the comments. I will add that he does wait and sit by the door before going out, he does sit on the rug as well when we eat, and he will sit on the rug when I bring visitors into the house. He did benefit from that in the training too. I guess I was so frustrated that I forgot to mention the good things that he does do well. 

You are right, I would never leave him alone with her. And when they are near each other, I am right there, to make sure he is not reacting negatively towards her. 

When he nipped the roofer, he was on one of his rugs, which is near his food (that he hadn't eaten yet), when we walked past is when he growled (not sure if the roofer knew or heard it) and I gave him his "feedback" by grabbing his collar, and that is when the roofer went to pet him and Oliver turned and got him. This makes me think for sure that it has a lot to do with resource guarding. 

Going to seek out a behaviorist and already implementing NILIF and reading Mind Games. Thank you very much


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

codmaster said:


> I think "alpha" definetly works when done appropriately. I.E. means that I am in charge and you (the dog) does what I tell him to do when i tell him to do it.
> Definetly doesn't mean that I hurt the dog in any way - just that I enforce whatever i tell him to do and am consistent and fair.
> 
> As far as "setting him up for failure:, THAT is exactly what needs to be done but only once you are absolutely convinced that your dog knows what is expected of him. I.E. teach him the "sit" ommand at home or in the back yard and with you right next to him. Once he really knows it and does it consistently in these low stress and low distraction environments (hence he "knows" it); THEN we introduce an increasing level of distractions (people, dogs, environment and slowly increase the distance between you and him). VERY gradually and one thing at a time we put more distractions in and if we do a good job - VOILA! we end up with a dog who will obey under almost any situation!
> ...


This is where we have lacked in our responsibility. We have done some tests situations and when we did, he did well. However, we never really had the time to continue to increas the situations and challenge him further. It's tough, but we are going to work on it!


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> If he is so quick with his personalities, then your baby is liable to get bit if she touches the dog at the wrong time, crawls by him and sets him off, etc.
> 
> I worry about your baby.


Me too, that is why I am trying to make him a better dog as best I can. I want to trust him more than I do. We are going to work hard on him.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

sashadog said:


> I would agree 100% about the exercise thing although I do know how difficult it can be with a new baby in the house as well. That is where the mind games will help tire him out without pushing you too much.
> 
> Ideally though, the more you can get him out for some physical exercise, the easier the training will be. It's also in incredible way to rebuild his trust in you. Walks are great opportunities to take a bag of treats and tire him out while rewarding calm and trusting behavior. Plus, I always seem to relax on walks, which the dogs really seem to appreciate
> 
> Good luck and I would also second the many suggestions for finding a better trainer!! Keep us posted!


Thank you! I will try to update weekly. I love walking with him, and in the summer it was almost daily. But as it gets colder, it gets harder to take the baby out with us.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

*So started around the same time. Makes sense. Well now you have a secret weapon, so to speak... High value treats require him to perform to get them. Make him sit, shake, stay, whatever, give the treat and let him have it. As far as toys, maybe different story, since he likely won't "drop" it? Does he growl/fight you when you want to take the high value toy away?*

Not so much the toys, but the bones definitely (so no more bones!). Any advice for that?



*I don't want to come off as offensive! at all! but it so sounds like due to some really rotten training advice, you've been kinda hijacked.  Start over. I know you've spent a lot of money, but if you can afford to, I'd put more money into this and get a solid trainer who doesn't treat you like an idiot. Make sure they understand the history.*
I don't find it offensive, I am looking for help and answers. I did feel cheated by both the trainers I worked wiht. 


*Oh and PS - 15 minutes of exercise every other day is just not even close, not even in the stratosphere, of what that dog needs for exercise. Again, not trying to be offensive, but it just isn't even vaguely close.
*He does get more than 15 minutes every other day. He gets a long walk at least every other day. He gets play time in the yard with me, probably twice a day, for a total of 20 minutes. You are right, he needs more daily walks. I need my husband to help with too.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> even with the issues you're having with your dog
> doesn't mean he won't make a good family dog.
> you'll probably have to watch him closely when you
> have guest and tell your guest not to touch him.
> ...


Thank you, thank you! I have thought of this too. We are going to try and make him a better dog. However, I have to say I have thought of everything you just said. I don't want to give up. I hear of many people that have some jerks for dogs, but they need love too. However, if I have to rehome him down the road for safety, it might be what happens.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Debbieg said:


> :thumbup: definitely agree. Things happen so quickly and as the baby gets older the dog may see the child differently.
> The links Debbie posted are great and I also think more exercise is needed. Even on my 12 hour work days Benny gets a 3 mile training/walk in the am and 30 minutes of play in the evening. He gets a lot more Fri- Sun when I am off.
> 
> Maybe someone from the forum in your area could recommend a good trainer.


You are both right. I will look into the local forum, thank you.


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## jflo53 (Oct 3, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Here you go: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...92-aggression-over-high-value-food-bones.html
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html
> 
> ...


Thanks! I will check them out


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

It is easier to get the dog tired with fetching than with walking alone. A good dog is a tired dog. The dog is tired when the tongue is hanging out on the side, down to the ground. Twenty minutes a day won't do or a young dog.
I would be careful with behaviorists too. They are like trainers, some are good, others are not. I have heard some expensive behaviorists in my area recommending putting dogs down for aggression issues that we in rescue regularly deal with successfully.
Some fifteen years ago I adopted a dog that turned out to be people aggressive. The behaviorist who came out told me to teach the dog to stop attacking people when I ring a little bell (like the one on a Christmas tree). She forgot to explain how I teach that. She told my vet that the dog should take antidepressants. She charged me $400 for the one one- hour visit 15 years ago. I have to admit that lost respect for behaviorists and I prefer trainers. What I am trying to say is that are bad ones among both. And there are too many who don't understand the nature of a working dog.


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