# Working Class vs. Working line definition question



## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

I hope this post does not start a flame war here. I often see that dogs that are classified as "working line" descend from Czech lines often with sable coloring. I have also seen West German line dogs classified as Working Class as defined by results in Sieger Show. These dogs look like what most people call showline dogs with black and tan coloration. Most of the dogs that I see doing work in Schutzhund Trials that I have seen appear to be from Czech lines. What is the differance between West German Working line black and tans vs. Czech working line dogs?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

gmcenroe said:


> II have also seen West German line dogs classified as Working Class as defined by results in Sieger Show.


Sure these aren't Show Line dogs competing in a working class? 

By the way, Czech dogs aren't the only working lines. To further confuse the issue, there are West German Working and East German Working. And Belgian. And probably some others.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Breed Types & Related Families


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

Thanks for the responses so far. I guess I could narrow down my question to the following: How can one distinguish between West German Showline and West German working line dogs that have similar appearance since it seems that both seem to have SchH titles?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Working class is just that.... A class at an SV style show. The working class is for Schutzhund (or HGH) titled dogs. Showline, workingline.....,doesn't matter.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

gmcenroe said:


> Thanks for the responses so far. I guess I could narrow down my question to the following: How can one distinguish between West German Showline and West German working line dogs that have similar appearance since it seems that both seem to have SchH titles?


Learn kennel names.
If the Pedigree has all blk/red dogs with V or Va ratings, probably a showline. Mix of colors in past generations, and ratings of G, SG and V's..... Probably working line.


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

my dog is a west german working lined dog that's a darkish sable so you can't really tell by color. i have noticed that most show line dogs carry the common black/tan color but that doesn't mean a working lined dog can't have it either (i think).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The "working class" is just a class at a show, it does not describe the dogs that participate or which lines they are from. It is the class for dogs 2-6 years old that have obtained a SchH or HGH title.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

My understanding is that you can't breed your GSD in Germany unless you have a Sch title. So the mere Sch1 or Sch3 title isn't necessarily helpful to us to tell between working and show.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I think the trend has been for West German Show Lines to be mostly Black/Tan(Red). Then the West German Working Lines would have any other coloring but the Black/tan(red). Then you have East German Working Lines (aka DDR). Most of the Czech dogs came from dogs originally bred in East Germany. These dogs usually are of similar coloring. This is by no means the standard, just a small example of what is being bred. Some lines get mixed in breedings too. W German Show to W German Working.
So did you want to know the conformation differences in the lines or just coloring? Not sure because the West German black and tan is really considered a show line.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gmcenroe said:


> Thanks for the responses so far. I guess I could narrow down my question to the following: How can one distinguish between West German Showline and West German working line dogs that have similar appearance since it seems that both seem to have SchH titles?


They really don't look that similar. The black and red dogs are going to be showline regardless of Sch titles, which are required to breed in the German system. Working lines are going to be sable, solid black, black and tan, or bi-color. Those are gross generalizations of course, but that's usually a big clue right there, without even knowing which kennels produce show and which produce working lines. Some do both, to further confuse the issue. V ratings are conformation, and while there are working line dogs shown in conformation, the vast majority are going to be German showlines. 


Keefer is WGSL and Halo is WGWL. Your Juli is WGSL too, I believe.


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> They really don't look that similar. The black and red dogs are going to be showline regardless of Sch titles, which are required to breed in the German system. Working lines are going to be sable, solid black, black and tan, or bi-color. Those are gross generalizations of course, but that's usually a big clue right there, without even knowing which kennels produce show and which produce working lines. Some do both, to further confuse the issue. V ratings are conformation, and while there are working line dogs shown in conformation, the vast majority are going to be German showlines.
> 
> 
> Keefer is WGSL and Halo is WGWL. Your Juli is WGSL too, I believe.


Juli is black and tan with red especially on her head. I thought that her father Quartz vom Wustenberger land was considered showline he is SchH 3 but his breeders website describes him as VA4 working male: 

German Shepherd Breeders CAuppies For Saleogs:Trainingrotection Dogs-USA Sieger 2010

My understanding is that West German working lines can still be black and tan if they were bred for working ability. I suppose that their working ability might have descended from earlier generations of breeding "working line" dogs with black and tan showline dogs to build their working ability or with other black and tan GSDs that have proven working ability. Since I haven't seen Quartz's scores in SchH trial it is hard to compare him with other working line dogs and I have seen Sieger shows where the standards for working appear to be lower than in Schutzhund trials. Juli's mom Branja vom Haus Tyson seems to also be showline even though she has SchH 3 title as well.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gmcenroe said:


> *I thought that her father Quartz vom Wustenberger land was considered showline * he is SchH 3 but his breeders website describes him as VA4 working male:
> 
> German Shepherd Breeders CAuppies For Saleogs:Trainingrotection Dogs-USA Sieger 2010


He is.  Keef's parents are both Schutzhund 3, and he is definitely showline.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

gmcenroe said:


> Juli is black and tan with red especially on her head. I thought that her father Quartz vom Wustenberger land was considered showline he is SchH 3 but his breeders website describes him as VA4 working male:
> 
> German Shepherd Breeders CAuppies For Saleogs:Trainingrotection Dogs-USA Sieger 2010
> 
> My understanding is that West German working lines can still be black and tan if they were bred for working ability. I suppose that their working ability might have descended from earlier generations of breeding "working line" dogs with black and tan showline dogs to build their working ability or with other black and tan GSDs that have proven working ability. Since I haven't seen Quartz's scores in SchH trial it is hard to compare him with other working line dogs and I have seen Sieger shows where the standards for working appear to be lower than in Schutzhund trials. Juli's mom Branja vom Haus Tyson seems to also be showline even though she has SchH 3 title as well.


Wustenbergerland are WGSL breeders. vom Haus Tyson are Working line breeders. Some Showline dogs may have working line dogs in their pedigrees but that doesn't automatically mean they are working line. GSDs are supposed to be working dogs. Wustenbergerland and other WGSL breeders work their dogs to prove their working ability, but they are not working lines.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

gmcenroe said:


> Juli is black and tan with red especially on her head. I thought that her father Quartz vom Wustenberger land was considered showline he is SchH 3 but his breeders website describes him as VA4 working male:


Quartz and Juli are both showline dogs. They may be show lines that work, but their bloodlines are show. You can take a showline dog, and put him to work, and he'll still be showline. You can take a working line dog and enter him in shows, and he'll still be working line.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The "line" is based on pedigree and not the show class, and pedigree does not change regardless of what titles the dog has or doesn't have. I show my working line dogs and they are working line dogs. I work my show line dog and he is a show line dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> vom Haus Tyson are Working line breeders.


They actually do both working and show lines.


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

I guess I have seen showline black and red dogs with excellent working ability so the distinction between showline vs. working line can be confusing. Maybe a better definition of working line GSD is one that can work comes from high scoring ancesters, and also are able to achieve high scores in SchH trials. Most dogs that I have seen in Sieger shows are black/tan or black/red and many do not obtain SchH titles at least in United States, since it is not required for breeding in U.S. Perhaps those showline dogs that obtain SchH titles in Germany, once they are titled no longer compete unless they are high scoring, and titles are obtained simply for the purpose of breeding.

Most of the dogs from Witmer Tyson now are working line dogs although she still does some showline dogs that are able to work but may not achieve SchH scores that are as high as her working line dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The difference is really very simple!!!!

This is only as applied to European lines!!! And current - not 30 years ago before the fixing of the showline type by the Martins.

First - 99% of all showlines are the "classic black saddle and red/tan/brown". A pedigree of all "V" and "VA" dogs is showlines. 

Black dogs are 99.9999999% going to be working lines - maybe someone somewhere will do some breeding where a black recessive pair will be thrown someday, but have not ever seen or heard of one! Sables are 99% going to be working lines. There were 2 sable showline males (although one carried some working lines a few generations back) in the past decade.... Champ Dakota and Timo Berkestan (sp?)....otherwise all the show dogs are black and red. Therefore, all sables, with only those very few exceptions through Timo and Champ, are going to be working lines.

Breeders of working lines and show lines both do schutzhund titles under SV Breeding Requirements. Therefore, titles are NOT an indication of type. Showline breeders will title dogs as required, but show over and over as 'sport'. Working line breeders will show for their show rating and koer generally, but trial is their sport focus. Show line dogs have rarely shown in the BSP and while some working dogs will show in "THE" Sieger Show - ie the National Conformation Championship...they NEVER get VA ranking, and are mid to lowest placings in the Working Class - for which a title is required to show.

Basically - for a novice - color should be enough 99% of the time to tell the difference between working and show lines.....

Lee


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

Thanks Lee, that was a great answer to the question.


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