# What is wrong?



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Do you see any mistakes in this article? Errors in any statements? Take a look and see what you think.

Veteran with service dog denied entrance to gentleman's club - WMBFNews.com | Myrtle Beach/Florence, SC | News, Weather, Sports

Beginning of the article:
MYRTLE BEACH, SC (WMBF) – A 28-year-old manager of a gentleman's club has been arrested after allegedly refusing service to a man with a service dog early Saturday morning.

According to a police report, officers met with the 24-year-old victim around 1 a.m. who told police he and his service animal were not allowed inside the Penthouse Club, located at 716 Seaboard St.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Several other gentleman's clubs in the Grand Strand told WMBF that while they've never dealt with people bringing service animals into their establishment, they can see the bright lights, noise, and general distractions of the club causing issues for the animals. One club, however, disagrees.
> "If it's a vested service animal and has credentials, you can't deny it," says David Birch, owner of Derriere's on Seaboard Street. "That's federal law."


A service dog does not have to be vested nor does it have to have credentials.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> A service dog does not have to be vested nor does it have to have credentials.


:thumbup:



A point that may not stand out to some ...



> "It could be a character issue where the person is unruly or intoxicated," says Capt. Knipes, "But we're referring to an ADA violation here."


Yes, refusing him entry is an ADA violation but that is not what the manager was arrested for. The ADA is a Civil Rights law. City or County police officers do not arrest violators of a Civil Rights law. The manager was arrested because SC has a state law that pretty much mirrors the ADA (Civil Rights Law) on this point. It was a violation of *SC State Law* (Criminal Law) on which the manager was in fact arrested. 



> Warrants were requested for Frosch on a charge of interfering with rights of blind or disabled person.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I didn't see it perhaps, but what was the victims disability. All I saw was that he couldn't bend over and that the service animal picked things up for him. Did I understand the service animal and the disability?

I also can not bend over very good due to two full knee replacements and bypass surgery.

Now please don't anybody misunderstand my question as I really am curious.

My question - My GSD also is extremely well trained to fetch things (almost anything) and bring them to me - actually will selectively retrieve a few things by name.

Under the ADA, would he be consideres a service dog and could actually go anywhere with me?

I think that I heard that no business can even ask what my disability is (i.e. can't kneel or bend over hardly at all) or what the dog does for me (or maybe they can ask this, I am not sure). But no certification is required or needed or can be asked for, I think?

What would stop me from bringing my dog into a restaurant or movie or ???? type business. My limited bending or kneeling is exactly the case and my dogs retrieving is also very good.

Just curious as to what if any provisions are in the ADA to prevent this type of "DIY" service dog? Or maybe this is exactly what was intended in this law????

BTW, if it were needed my orthopedic surgeon would certainly certify that I cannot kneel or bend over very much.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

It did not go in depth as to what his disability was (nor did it have to).

They can ask what tasks the dog performs to mitigate your disability. No certification is required, needed, or can be asked for.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> My question - My GSD also is extremely well trained to fetch things (almost anything) and bring them to me - actually will selectively retrieve a few things by name.
> 
> Under the ADA, would he be consideres a service dog and could actually go anywhere with me?



Would you be able to prove in a court of law that you are *Legally Disabled*? Legally disabled is not the same as medically disabled. A doctor can say a person is medically disabled and give a formal statement that in their opinion that a person meets the qualifications of being legally disabled. A judge can ask for your medical records.

Would you be able to prove in a court of law that your dog has been trained to perform a task that is needed to mitigate your legal disability? Do you have documentation proving this training? Can you demonstrate to a judge why you need the dog? Can you prove to a judge that your dog is safe to be taken into the public? (Do you have documentation of obedience classes, evaluations, certificates, or temperament testing?) A judge can ask for any of this. 

We can not tell you if you are legally disabled. For specifics you would need to talk with your doctor as their medical opinion will count toward your legal standing. You also can clarify points up through your state General Attorney's Office, a lawyer specializing in disability law, and the ADA hotline. 

Always remember, once you ask a doctor to help you claim legal disability and that you need a SD it will go into and become a part of your *permanent medical records*.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Xeph said:


> It did not go in depth as to what his disability was (nor did it have to).
> 
> They can ask what tasks the dog performs to mitigate your disability. No certification is required, needed, or can be asked for.


How about anything about the handicap of the person with the dog?

So someone could just tell them that "my dog is a service dog" and nobody can do any checking to confirm it? 

If that is the case, what an opportunity for some folks. Seems like there should be something in the law to help business owners (and the resat of the public) to prevent that.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ILGHAUS said:


> Would you be able to prove in a court of law that you are *Legally Disabled*? Legally disabled is not the same as medically disabled. A doctor can say a person is medically disabled and give a formal statement that in their opinion that a person meets the qualifications of being legally disabled. A judge can ask for your medical records.
> 
> *As I ask below - what gets the dog handler in front of a judge in the first place if the business owner can not ask about anything or even any documentation. It seems the owner got arrested with out anyone doing any checking of the dog handler. Or did I miss that part of the article?*
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info!

Obviously, I have absolutely no intention to try to say my dog is a service dog - just inquiring (because I don't know!) as to what is required to do so and what method is available of confirming such a thing for the business owner.

It just appears to my admitedly foggy brain that it is just a natural situation for someone to easily scam business owners and the public.

For example, how would I get to the position of being before a judge? I thought that the business owner (nor anyone else) can ask the person to prove or demonstrate anything about the handicap and the dog?

Did the subject in the article have to "prove" his "disability" before the owner could be arrested for denying his dog entrance to the public place?

Seems like he should of had to do so - since I am also assuming that if the guy wasn't disabled and/or his dog wasn't a legitimate service dog (how ever that is defined in the ADA or state law in this case, I guess) than the owner had not committed a crime? (I am of course assuming that the business owner has the right to deny other than service dogs (or other protected groups) entrance to his place of business.

A most confusing law (at least to me). Really seems like our legislators rushed this one (with a great goal in mind, no doubt) through without really understanding many of the details and impacts to the public and to business owners.

Course my knowledge may certainly be clouded due to a misunderstanding of the law and it's enforcement and requirements and options for business owners to be able to control what goes on in their establishments, no doubt.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Xeph said:


> It did not go in depth as to what his disability was (nor did it have to).
> 
> They can ask what tasks the dog performs to mitigate your disability. No certification is required, needed, or can be asked for.


So if I understand it right, the owner can ask that question and the dog handler can say "This and that" and that is the end of it - is that right? No matter what the answer the owner can not deny the dog entrance (as long as the dog is not foaming at the mouth figurativly speaking and thus an obvious dangerous dog)? Can the owner force the dog handler to "prove" his disability and/or the dog necessity and capability to a judge as someone else on here said to me? If so, how? If not, then how does it get before a judge? Maybe in the owners defense in the trial for his crime of denying access?


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster, do you have memory loss?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> codmaster, do you have memory loss?


Sometimes, due to age. But so nice of you to ask!


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> codmaster, do you have memory loss?


No problem. I don't mind if someone really doesn't remember and needs to ask again. 

A business (representative of the business) can ask if someone is disabled (not what their disability is) and if the dog is a SD trained to mitigate their disability. If they are satisfied then all is OK. If the representative is not comfortable with the declaration because of some red flag such as the dog not presenting itself as a trained SD, the handler can at that point be asked what the dog is trained to do. 

A business can ask the handler to remove the dog under certain circumstances. The handler then has the right to return to the business without the dog.

The following may help you. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/guide-therapy-service-dogs/163477-28-cfr-part-35-a.html

Also this older one, just disregard the part about other animals. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...63-doj-commonly-asked-questions-business.html

Businesses should know their state laws also. The ADA has links that a business owner can go to, some areas have workshops for business owners to attend, a phone call to the State Attorney's Office with a specific question, making use of the ADA hotline, are some of the ways the business owner can clarify. Larger businesses such as Lowe's, Wal-Mart and such have their own legal team that will look into these matters for the chain. Store management can bring a charge against a SD handler and they often do. There are numerous such cases where either a business owner or a SD handler have brought a charge against the other going through the courts each year. If a business owner says they do not know their rights or how to proceed then they have just not taken the time to inquire.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> codmaster, do you have memory loss?


See, I also forgot to ask you personally to answer a question that no one seems to know the answer too (unless I missed it which would be quite possible given my age, I guess).

How is any business owner or manager supposed to check to see if a would be disabled person with a possible "Service Dog" if the dog needs no certification and they cannot ask what the disability is? Sounds to my admittedly less knowledgable mind that they cannot do anything except admit anyone with a non aggressive dog into their establishment - is that true or did I miss something?

Related of course is my still unanswered inquiry as to how does the dog handler get to be taken to court?

Have a really nice day.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Not to go back to my previous post but here is another post on the topic of rights and responsibilities. This source has been mentioned on various posts. 

From the Dept. of Justice Website is the following:
*The ADA requires the Department of Justice to provide technical assistance to businesses,* State and local governments, and individuals *with rights or responsibilities under the law.* The Department provides education and technical assistance through a variety of means to encourage voluntary compliance. Activities include providing direct technical assistance and guidance to the public through the ADA Website and the ADA Information Line; developing and disseminating technical assistance materials to the public; and undertaking outreach initiatives.

*Bolding is mine.*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ILGHAUS said:


> No problem. I don't mind if someone really doesn't remember and needs to ask again.
> 
> A business (representative of the business) can ask if someone is disabled (not what their disability is) and if the dog is a SD trained to mitigate their disability. If they are satisfied then all is OK. If the representative is not comfortable with the declaration because of some red flag such as the dog not presenting itself as a trained SD, the handler can at that point be asked what the dog is trained to do.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update. So the owner has to file a suit against the person and dog. Federal or state? Is there any provision in the ADA for the payment of court/legal fees if the owner wins in court. (I realize that is not likely but I am curious if anyone knows this).


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

codmaster said:


> My question - My GSD also is extremely well trained to fetch things (almost anything) and bring them to me - actually will selectively retrieve a few things by name.
> 
> Under the ADA, would he be consideres a service dog and could actually go anywhere with me?


Only if you were legally considered disabled under the ADA and the dog did tasks that mitigated that disability.




codmaster said:


> What would stop me from bringing my dog into a restaurant or movie or ???? type business. My limited bending or kneeling is exactly the case and my dogs retrieving is also very good.
> 
> Just curious as to what if any provisions are in the ADA to prevent this type of "DIY" service dog? Or maybe this is exactly what was intended in this law????


"DIY" service dogs are most definitely allowed. Many people choose to train their own service dogs, this is totally legal. However, again the dog must be trained to mitigate the handler's disability. If not, it is not a service dog.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster, I asked because you repeat the same questions over and over despite them being answered. I'll leave it to others to address them this time. If there is some sort of memory loss (beyond age) causing the issue, maybe it would help others to let them know in case you're repeating questions again.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Codmaster it appears you're looking for a loophole for the business to be able to ask even actual service dogs to leave. Here it is: ADA Business Brief: Service Animals


> A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the animal is out of control and the animal's owner does not take effective action to control it (for example, a dog that barks repeatedly during a movie) or (2) the animal poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others.
> 
> 
> In these cases, the business should give the person with the disability the option to obtain goods and services without having the animal on the premises.


If the dog is not causing a disturbance, and the individual answered "*he picks things up for me because I can't bend over!"* there is no need to further question. If the dog is causing a disturbance, determining if the dog is a service dog or not is unnecessary as service dogs causing a disturbance may be asked to leave as well.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> Only if *you were legally considered disabled under the ADA *and the dog did tasks that mitigated that disability.
> 
> *And that is my question - what does this term really mean? Is not being able to bend my knees or esp. kneel make someome one "disabled" under the ADA? And doesn't the ADA also prohibit the store owner (or anyone else) from asking what the handlers disability is? And i think as well from asking the handler what the dog does for him? Doesn't it?*
> 
> "DIY" service dogs are most definitely allowed. Many people choose to train their own service dogs, this is totally legal. However, again the dog must be trained to mitigate the handler's disability. If not, it is not a service dog.


See above - How does one be deemed "disabled" under the ADA? 

Can it be simply a mental condition or does the disability have to have some physical part? My (limited) understanding is that it can be just a mental condition (but I am not certain of this).


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> Codmaster it appears you're looking for a loophole for the business to be able to ask even actual service dogs to leave. Here it is: ADA Business Brief: Service Animals
> 
> 
> If the dog is not causing a disturbance, and the individual answered "*he picks things up for me because I can't bend over!"* there is no need to further question. If the dog is causing a disturbance, determining if the dog is a service dog or not is unnecessary as service dogs causing a disturbance may be asked to leave as well.


 
Nope! No loophole seeking - just trying to understand this law and what it means to the public and to the business owners that have to try to work with it in their business operation.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Can it be simply a mental condition or does the disability have to have some physical part? My (limited) understanding is that it can be just a mental condition (but I am not certain of this).


Mental or physical as long as it is disabling. 

Section 902 Definition of the Term Disability



> (b) Statutory Definition -- With respect to an individual, the term "disability" means (A) a physical or mental impairment that *substantially limits one or more of the major life activities of such individual*;
> (B) a record of such an impairment; or
> (C) being regarded as having such an impairment.





> (b) Regulatory Definition -- A physical or mental impairment means (1) [a]ny physiological disorder, or condition, cosmetic disfigurement, or anatomical loss affecting one or more of the following body systems: neurological, musculoskeletal, special sense organs, respiratory (including speech organs), cardiovascular, reproductive, digestive, genito-urinary, hemic and lymphatic, skin, and endocrine; or
> (2) [a]ny mental or psychological disorder, such as mental retardation, organic brain syndrome, emotional or mental illness, and specific learning disabilities.





> 902.3 Major Life Activities (a) General -- For an impairment to rise to the level of a disability, it must substantially limit, have previously substantially limited, or be perceived as substantially limiting, one or more of a person's major life activities. There has been little controversy about what constitutes a major life activity. In most cases, courts have simply stated that an impaired activity is a major life activity. In general, major life activities "are those basic activities that the average person in the general population can perform with little or no difficulty." 29 C.F.R. pt. 1630 app.§ 1630.2(i).
> (b) * Regulatory Definition -- Commission regulations define the term "major life activities" to mean "functions such as caring for oneself, performing manual tasks, walking, seeing, hearing, speaking, breathing, learning, and working." *29 C.F.R. § 1630.2(i); see also Senate Report at 22; House Education and Labor Report at 52; House Judiciary Report at 28.


Bolding is mine.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the legal definition of disability does vary a bit, some agencies are more strict than others. The pinnacle is Social Security, since it is one of the hardest agencies to get approval from. It can be a very long and involved process. You start with a doctor's prognosis - what is wrong/how long will it last/will it hinder at least one life activity?


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I'm not sure how you can say the definition varies, when its specifically written out in very much detail... I only took a few small sections out for my quote. 

When it comes to protection under the ADA, you need to meet the ADA definition of disability. Social Security or your personal Drs definition does not apply. 

And when it comes to Social Security, its not that their definition of disability thats tough but to be approved for disability income, which has a lot more involved than whether or not you're disabled. Someone can be severely disabled under the ADA and use multiple adaptive devices such as a wheelchair and service dog, but still be able to work full time and would not qualify for social security disability payments. That does not mean they are not disabled.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I mean that different agencies have different criteria to count as "legally disabled" Or so I've always been told. Social Security is one of the hardest agencies to get declared "legally disabled"

example: it's very simple to get declared "legally disabled" enough to get a handicapped parking permit


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ADA certainly does seem to be in a different world, that is for sure.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Dainerra said:


> I mean that different agencies have different criteria to count as "legally disabled" Or so I've always been told. Social Security is one of the hardest agencies to get declared "legally disabled"
> 
> example: it's very simple to get declared "legally disabled" enough to get a handicapped parking permit


Because there is a difference between these. For example, the parking permit is for those with physical disabilities that affect mobility. you can be legally disabled with bipolar, but that doesn't mean you need a parking permit. While another disability means you do. You may be legally disabled, but still able to work and not need SSDI. Those definitions are specific to the resources. 

While the ADA is discussing a legal disability much more in general, to support all seriously disabled individuals and their individual needs. The ADA covers the rights of ALL legally disabled individuals. And the definition of legally disabled is put out there in black and white so that it takes more than a single Drs opinion to verify as being legally disabled, if you so believe that your civil rights under the ADA were violated. It does not vary, and the definition is VERY long. I recommend anyone with questions read it, before further questioning 



codmaster said:


> ADA certainly does seem to be in a different world, that is for sure.


Can you explain what you mean by that?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> Because there is a difference between these. For example, the parking permit is for those with physical disabilities that affect mobility. you can be legally disabled with bipolar, but that doesn't mean you need a parking permit. While another disability means you do. You may be legally disabled, but still able to work and not need SSDI. Those definitions are specific to the resources.
> 
> While the ADA is discussing a legal disability much more in general, to support all seriously disabled individuals and their individual needs. The ADA covers the rights of ALL legally disabled individuals. And the definition of legally disabled is put out there in black and white so that it takes more than a single Drs opinion to verify as being legally disabled, if you so believe that your civil rights under the ADA were violated. It does not vary, and the definition is VERY long. I recommend anyone with questions read it, before further questioning
> 
> ...


*That = "ADA certainly does seem to be in a different world, that is for sure."*

Sure, I meant simply that the ADA law was very well written with benefits to "disabled" folks strongly in mind, that's all. Wouldn't you agree with that? 

I.E. The ADA law has proven to be very beneficial to all disabled people (as defined by the ADA definition that you reference in your posts)? At least from discussions on this forum, that seems pretty clear to me.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I still don't understand the connection between "in a different world" and well written beneficial law. I'm very literal with language, so if you were making a metaphor I guess its one I can't grasp.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> I still don't understand the connection between "in a different world" and well written beneficial law. I'm very literal with language, so if you were making a metaphor I guess its one I can't grasp.


Sorry, Lin. I really did try to make it as simple as possible so anyone could understand what I was trying to say.

By the way, though, just to explain a little bit. What I wrote was: 
*"very well written with benefits to "disabled" folks strongly in mind, that's all. Wouldn't you agree with that? "
*
Did you agree with my statement or not? - couldn't tell from your response actually.

All I meant was that the ADA law seems to have been very cleverly written with the "disabled" (however that was actually defined in the law itself) person strongly in mind regarding what they and their self described helpful service dogs are allowed to do.

So would you agree with that or not? That is about as simple as I can explain what I originally meant. 

I really hope that helps you understand what I meant and we can end this debate and get back on track.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster said:


> By the way, though, just to explain a little bit. What I wrote was:
> *"very well written with benefits to "disabled" folks strongly in mind, that's all. Wouldn't you agree with that? "
> *
> Did you agree with my statement or not? - couldn't tell from your response actually.


Since I'm still unsure as to the full meaning of your statements, its not really something I can answer. You put disabled in quotes, which in common use can be to draw attention to irony, slang, or a word being used in an unusual sense. I do not know what sense of disabled you are trying to refer to, which can completely change the intention of the entire sentence. 



> All I meant was that the ADA law seems to have been very cleverly written with the "disabled" (however that was actually defined in the law itself) person strongly in mind regarding what they and their self described helpful service dogs are allowed to do.
> 
> So would you agree with that or not? That is about as simple as I can explain what I originally meant.


Again, certain things in your wording can make things appear deceptive. Which is while I had an earlier post mentioning that it seemed you were looking for a loophole, thats how your wording appeared to me. 

As for "self described", the law was not written by disabled individuals with service dogs... 



> I really hope that helps you understand what I meant and we can end this debate and get back on track.


What would that be? The original topic was a specific article and what was wrong in that article, which was covered in the first page. Since then the topics have morphed with the discussion 

I didn't realize there was a debate?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> *As for "self described", the law was not written by disabled individuals with service dogs*...
> ............................
> *I didn't realize there was a debate*?


There isn't, since debate participants, as far as I am concerned, usually at least try to answer questions in such an undertaking (except maybe in a political debate, like a presidential televised one)!

I see that you have also in fact misinterpreted what my use of this concept (*"self described")* actually referred to. 

It refers to the fact that, as far as I know with my admittedly limited knowledge, the disabled handler just has to tell *(describe!)* the business owner/employee that the dog is a service dog to be able to bring the dog into the establishment. And also to the fact that the handler can train the service dog themselves to be a service dog and not just be a regular pet dog with no one else involved and no requirement for any certification/confirmation of any such training. I.E they can do it "themselves" (self).

So I hope that this can end this. Please!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Lin said:


> Because there is a difference between these. For example, the parking permit is for those with physical disabilities that affect mobility. you can be legally disabled with bipolar, but that doesn't mean you need a parking permit. While another disability means you do. You may be legally disabled, but still able to work and not need SSDI. Those definitions are specific to the resources.
> 
> While the ADA is discussing a legal disability much more in general, to support all seriously disabled individuals and their individual needs. The ADA covers the rights of ALL legally disabled individuals. And the definition of legally disabled is put out there in black and white so that it takes more than a single Drs opinion to verify as being legally disabled, if you so believe that your civil rights under the ADA were violated. It does not vary, and the definition is VERY long. I recommend anyone with questions read it, before further questioning
> 
> ...


That was my point. Some people don't understand that, just because they may have been declared "legally" disabled by the state and received a parking permit, does not automatically entitle them to call their dog a service dog. Why, because it is unrelated!

Example: on another group (non-dog) is a lady who is legally disabled with mobility issues, well enough to get a parking permit but her disability through social security is so far denied. She is also nervous/anxious in public. She wants to take her dog out as an emotional support animal and feels that she is allowed because the state declared her "legally" disabled.

Also, another reason I put it out there is because some states/agencies are pretty lax in issuing things such as parking permits. I know in the past that people who weren't legally disabled were able to get parking permits. I even knew a person who received one while visiting a DR for a sprained ankle. She just said "hey I always wanted one of those" and the Dr laughed and wrote her the letter. So, technically, she was declared legally disabled by the state of FL.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I don't have time right now to read in detail the last page or so here. 

When asking questions or when addressing other posters in this area please everyone remember that we have folk in here with different disabilities. Some of these are people with trouble reading or people that have a hard time understanding the emotions behind the written word because of their disability.

Please have patience with answers. 

*Legally as used here is "Legal per the ADA/DOJ".* It does not mean legal per a doctor's office or of a particular state under their laws for a state agency. I have given the phone # of the ADA Hotline (Federal Level) and info to contact your State Attorney's Office (State Level) if you are not able to get a satisfactory answer to any of your questions. We are not ADA, Civil Rights lawyers and can only give our opinions as far as our individual experience in these matters go.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Example: on another group (non-dog) is a lady who is legally disabled with mobility issues, well enough to get a parking permit but her disability through social security is so far denied. She is also nervous/anxious in public. She wants to take her dog out as an emotional support animal and feels that she is allowed because the state declared her "legally" disabled.


She is incorrect regarding Emotional Support Animals, regardless of whether or not she is considered to be legally disabled because ESA's are an entirely different category from actual Service Dogs.

Service Dogs are dogs that are trained SPECIFIC TASKS (at least three of them) that mitigate the handler's specific disability. 

ESA's are not trained any specific tasks, they help their handler by providing "emotional support", which is essentially what any good, well-behaved pet does. Where ESA's differ from pets is that there are specific accommodations made for them in non-pet housing where the handler/owner can apply for an exception if they can prove the dog is necessary as an ESA. Otherwise, ESA's have NO PUBLIC ACCESS RIGHTS with their handler. She can not take an ESA out shopping, to restaurants, etc. because an ESA is not a Service Dog.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

ESA's also have no required obedience or public access training. They are pets, nothing more. While SDs are trained in obedience, public access, and service tasks.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> ESA's also have no required obedience or public access training. They are pets, nothing more. While SDs are trained in obedience, public access, and service tasks.


 
Aren't most service dogs also pets? One I remember from a news thing was a boy's pet as well as carrying some device that helped him if he had a seizure.

Also, you mention that true service dogs "SDs are trained in *obedience*, *public access*, and *service tasks*". 

I didn't think that there was any tests in any of these things that a SD has to pass in order to be designated a SD and granted all of the public access that goes with the designation.

What test(s) *does* a SD have to pass in order to be labeled a SD? 

Thanks.


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## PhoenixFiresky (Jul 5, 2011)

There are no required standardized tests for service dogs, although some states offer certification (each state determines what their requirements are separately) that provides protection in addition to that from the ADA.

The legal requirement is task training that mitigates the disability of their specific handler. There has been some discussion as to how many tasks are legally required, since the ADA refers to tasks (as plural), but doesn't specify a number. Some feel one is enough, others insist a minimum of three is necessary. Go figure.

The training level generally EXPECTED of a service dog is a two-parter. First, that the dog pass the Canine Good Citizenship test (generally accepted that after that test is passed, the dog can be labeled a SDIT), then that the Public Access Test be successfully passed. The PA test is more advanced. Then labeling as a full SD is at the determination of the owner. But while both of these tests are accepted as generally expected, neither of them are legally
required under federal law. 

That's my understanding, anyway.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> although some states offer certification (each state determines what their requirements are separately)


Do you happen to have a listing of those states and links? 




> Aren't most service dogs also pets?


Legally per the DOJ they are not classified as pets but as medical equipment. 




> What test(s) does a SD have to pass in order to be labeled a SD?


Enough to satisfy a judge. None specific are listed but a judge will and does request to see various documents which can include training logs, training and temperament certs, videos are becoming more popular, heath testing records, and a demonstration of tasks on demand. Some of the most common used include the CGC, obedience class certs, ATT or evaluations from other organizations, performance certs or titles, and PAT evaluations from a reputable source. 

I would suggest that anyone interested in these topics may want to also look through various threads that have been posted in this area.


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## PhoenixFiresky (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't have a list of states - although if you find one, I'd like to see it also. 

People on service dog threads I read have made reference to the laws of the states they reside in, or the states others in the discussion reside in, as having additional state certification available that provides legal rights in addition to the ADA. Unfortunately, I can't remember exactly which states were involved - just that, for example, one poster mentioned their dog was certified and was jumped on for it, but then the jumper realized the poster lived in a state that provided for additional certification and apologized. Jumpee accepted the apology and agreed that this was, indeed, the case in his/her state, and the discussion went on to include how the certification in those states offering it affect the SD rights.

I know in Nebraska, which is where I reside, a SD training organization can sign a document stating that a dog is a service dog and the fee for licensing is waived. But they don't accept owner/trainer statements.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

OK I see what you are talking about. 

Such as the state of New York giving this extra perk ...

Suspension of License fee for service dogs:
3. There shall be no fee for any license issued for any guide dog,
hearing dog, service dog, war dog, working search dog, detection dog,police work dog or therapy dog. Each copy of any license for such dogs shall be conspicuously marked "Guide Dog," "Hearing Dog," "Service Dog", "Working Search Dog", "War Dog", "Detection Dog", "Police Work Dog," or "Therapy Dog", as may be appropriate, by the clerk or authorized dog control officer.

There are different areas that have such perks and some give a tag (free) that states Service Dog others do not. Handlers are not required to place such tag on their dog (per the Dept. of Justice) but if they want the free tags they take what there is. Otherwise they do have the option of purchasing the regular tags at the standard price. 

In reality the states are not "certifying" the dogs as a Service Dog. It is a certain state saying per a sub-statute if you bring me such and such document (some with just a verbal) and put down your info on this piece of paper I will give you a free (or greatly reduced in price) tag. For the SD tag the intent was to make Public Access easier for the person with a disability but like other things it has been greatly abused. Also some states have programs which assist the PWD with the care of their SD. Each program would have different requiements on how to apply and qualify. 

Also in New York, there are a couple of cities that allow Therapy Dogs to ride mass transit and the same is true in some areas of CA though not all.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

As an example of tags from a specific location here is one dealing with NYC and please notice they state "may request" and not required. And they are not stating that the city of New York nor the state of New York is *certifying* the dog but based on a written statement there is an option of a free tag which includes "Service Dog" on it. 

"Owners of licensed dogs may request a separate Service Dog Tag for their service dog, free of charge. A written statement must be submitted from a trainer whose education, experience, and training are acceptable to the Dept. that such dog has been specifically trained to perform a task(s) for the person applying for the tag.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/vet/vet-doglicense-form.pdf"


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think he is referring to states that grant rights above and beyond the ADA. For example, WV grants public access to SDITs.
Some states that grant additional protections require a vest to be worn and things like that. I read here that to be granted the *additional* protections you have to follow the states additional rules.
Or, as my grandmother would say, "their sandbox, their rules"


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

But its still not a certification, I think is the point ILGHAUS is trying to make. Thats a tricky word when discussing service dog law and needs to be used correctly.


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## PhoenixFiresky (Jul 5, 2011)

Dainerra put his paw on what I was referring to. Whether that would technically be called additional "certification" by the state is not something I feel equipped to comment on. I'll leave that up to y'all.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

some states do require, though, that the dog be "licensed" or tested or similar to get those additional protections. I believe that the WV allowance for SDIT applies to only those accompanied by a "certified trainer" 

They can't require that the dog be licensed for anything covered under the ADA, but to get the additional protections, you have to follow whatever restrictions they have - be it only using an approved trainer/program or require that the dog pass a specific test


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Such as the state of New York giving this extra perk ...
> 
> Suspension of License fee for service dogs:
> 3. There shall be no fee for any license issued for any guide dog,
> hearing dog, service dog, war dog, working search dog, detection dog,police work dog or therapy dog. Each copy of any license for such dogs shall be conspicuously marked "Guide Dog," "Hearing Dog," "Service Dog", "Working Search Dog", "War Dog", "Detection Dog", "Police Work Dog," or "Therapy Dog", as may be appropriate, by the clerk or authorized dog control officer.


Speaking of New York ... until July of this year, licenses were issued by the NY State Department of Agriculture, via your local town clerk. As of July, each jurisdiction handles its own licensing and there no longer is a state database. It's very confusing.

(I had to renew my license in July, which is when I found out about this. Then when we moved at the end of July, I had to re-license in our new town.)

Also, a lot of clerks are not aware that there are any fee waived provisions for Therapy Dogs, SAR dogs, etc. and many have never put in such a license. I ended up leaving a copy of my dog's Therapy Dog ID and rabies certificate so the other clerk (who wasn't there when I went) could do it, because the one who was there had never done one and didn't know how.


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