# DM testing



## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

I would like to start a discussion on how accurate or inaccurate the current DM test is. I would like to hear if others place value in the test or not.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

In addition to GSD's I'm also a Boxer guy.  DM runs rampant in Boxers! So the test and a DM clear, breeding pair is "extremely" important to me! 

I found only one Boxer, Breeder that had DM clear breeding pairs and there dogs were imported from Hungary! 

Breeders are starting to list DM test results on there page also...good enough for me.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I personally know of multiple dogs who have been tested through two different labs with differing results.


----------



## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

I too think that health testing is extremely important, but if the test is inaccurate what value can we put in the results of a test?
I have noticed that many breeders have opted to stop testing their dogs due to inaccuracies in the test. I think the inaccuracy is just in GSDS, although someone more experienced will have to chime in with whether or not that is true.
Which labs were used that has different test results?


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

The test isn't 100%, but there is very clear evidence that GSDs tested DM clear have a MUCH lower risk of developing DM. I think it is an important test for sure.

It is inaccurate in the fact that it doesn't test for the "type" of DM that affects german shepherds.


----------



## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

What about GSDS that test as carriers?


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> The test isn't 100%, but there is very clear evidence that GSDs tested DM clear have a MUCH lower risk of developing DM. I think it is an important test for sure.
> 
> It is inaccurate in the fact that it doesn't test for the "type" of DM that affects german shepherds.



Can you please post where you found the "clear evidence that GSD tested DM clear have a MUCH lower risk of developing DM?"


----------



## Mikki (Aug 17, 2014)

I would love to see an article as well...I've been asking questions about this specific topic on many different forums and have yet to see solid evidence supporting either side of the claim.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> The test isn't 100%, but there is very clear evidence that GSDs tested DM clear have a MUCH lower risk of developing DM. I think it is an important test for sure.
> 
> It is inaccurate in the fact that it doesn't test for the "type" of DM that affects german shepherds.


The issue I have is that we can't even have confidence that the clear dogs are in fact, clear. The dogs that I know of initially tested as carriers and were resubmitted with results coming back as clear and vice versa.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> The test isn't 100%, but there is very clear evidence that GSDs tested DM clear have a MUCH lower risk of developing DM. I think it is an important test for sure.
> 
> It is inaccurate in the fact that it doesn't test for the "type" of DM that affects german shepherds.


There are "types" of DM???


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

My thought on DM testing is this: while DM is really terrible for the owners to go through, the fact is that for the dog, DM strikes in old age and is painless. It leaves us with a heart-wrenching decision to have to make, but all the dog knows is that it painlessly loses function and eventually goes to sleep in the arms of its owner. How many otherwise good dogs are being taken out of the gene pool, and what kind of genetic bottleneck are we creating, to reduce or eliminate a disease that's really not that bad of a way to die from the dog's perspective? The gene pool of quality Shepherds is already somewhat shallow as it is.

Before you flame, yes I have lost a dog to DM. It was much harder on me than it was on him. And I'd rather have a dog whose life ended with DM than one who lived its entire lifespan with faulty temperament.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

There is no need to flame! And sorry for your loss! My girl could no longer walk at 8 years!
I and my wife were in a position, that we could provide her 24/7 care for two years! That's would we did!

In Nov of 2013 the battles was over.  If a simple test can eliminate us going through that "experience" again?? Then that's what I will look for from a breeder. If I get a Boxer rescue...I will have them tested!

For me knowing, is much better than being blind sided! So 100% or not I'm glad the test is available!


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It is too early in the testing cycle to really know how accurate it is. But if we don't test, we will never know how reliable it is!! And every bit of knowledge you can find out about health and potential is more than we had 10 years ago!!!

I test my breeding stock....my females (Bengal, Kira - my 2 Csabre daughters and Panther) are all clear. I would never breed 2 carriers or at risks...but with clear females, I can breed to a carrier and require that the resulting pups be tested and only used in a breeding that will end up with one parent being a carrier at worst. I can avoid producing a double positive (at risk) and hopefully produce more clears. I will not let a carrier status keep me from a breeding I want to do, but will probably pass on an at risk male. Slowly, carefully, this problem could be diminished tremendously in reputable breeding programs - the BYB and commercial breeders aren't going to give a happy horse pucky because their main concern is income not the well being of the pups or owners.

Lee


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> It is too early in the testing cycle to really know how accurate it is. But if we don't test, we will never know how reliable it is!! And every bit of knowledge you can find out about health and potential is more than we had 10 years ago!!!
> 
> I test my breeding stock....my females (Bengal, Kira - my 2 Csabre daughters and Panther) are all clear. I would never breed 2 carriers or at risks...but with clear females, I can breed to a carrier and require that the resulting pups be tested and only used in a breeding that will end up with one parent being a carrier at worst. I can avoid producing a double positive (at risk) and hopefully produce more clears. I will not let a carrier status keep me from a breeding I want to do, but will probably pass on an at risk male. Slowly, carefully, this problem could be diminished tremendously in reputable breeding programs - the BYB and commercial breeders aren't going to give a happy horse pucky because their main concern is income not the well being of the pups or owners.
> 
> Lee


And that it was I was told by the one Breeder with the two clears on Boxerforum. 

One clear and one at risk (carrier??) was the best most could do?? If two clear parents was the requirement, 70 percent of breeding pairs would be eliminated!!


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Chip18 said:


> And that it was I was told by the one Breeder with the two clears on Boxerforum.
> 
> One clear and one at risk (carrier??) was the best most could do?? If two clear parents was the requirement, 70 percent of breeding pairs would be eliminated!!


Don't understand your first sentence???

The problem is that if you throw out all the at risk dogs, you reduce the gene pool too much....that is potentially disastrous for so many other issues IMO!!! CAREFUL long term planning....and choosing of breeding stock from your own breedings or purchased dogs who have been tested and are known is key to eliminating DM from a program....I have 2 more generations planned - I already know when I have a pup kept back what their status is and the potential matches for that pup....If I have 2 clears in a potential breeding, :happyboogie:!!! But the potential breeding is planned for many many factors BESIDES getting DM clear pups....I - and most people who understand the system - can deal with carriers produced if I am avoiding the +/+ or "at risk" pups.

There are 3 possiblities - a *-/-* or *clear*, a *+/+* or *at risk*, and a *+/-* or *carrier*..... the clear to the at risk is always going to produce -/+ or carrier....the clear to a carrier is is going to produce a -/+ or a -/- and so probably only 25% of those would end up even carriers....so unless a male was soooo outstanding, I would not use an at risk or +/+ male on my -/- clear female....I use the clear or the carrier and try to keep back a clear female....this way I keep alot more options open, and can do a breeding based on so many other factors....my own upcoming male who I plan on using in the future is also a clear (along with 'a' normal hips and elbows!)

Coming from an equine background, and understanding the AQHA Impressive HYPP debacle, is a very similar situation. 

Lee


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Don't understand your first sentence???


Sorry started typing in the middle of a thought! :blush: 

But what you are saying is what I was told by the Boxer Breeder.

As far as the viability of the test goes, it would seem pretty simple, to confirm to me? Enough breeders have been doing it for enough years, I would think a Breeder/Customer could just call clients with Dogs over the eight year range and ask "does your dog have DM??

Yes privacy,issues and all but by and large most folks that have a Dog from a quality breeder are pretty happy to talk about them!

I met a member on the Boxer board (online) that had an offspring of Cliff vom grand Kevin!!

Those dogs are Rock stars in Boxer world! 

Cliff vom Grand Kevin

He was more than willing to talk about his dog! Just a thought.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The main issue is that it appears that the tests run by the OFA and other testing companies, are testing for a genetic marker that doesn't seem to be the same for GSD as it is for other breeds. So when you test a GSD, none of the at risk/carrier/clear stuff matters as there are cases reported of a dog that was tested clear, later died, and the necropsy came back as DM.

So the idea that breeders are going to be making decisions based on a test that doesn't seem to be accurate seems wrong to me. As Lee explained, she is now planning litters/breedings around the test (not the only thing, but one of). There are a lot of repercussions for a breeder when it comes to a test that might not be accurate for our breed. This includes, testing puppies out of carrier litters, keeping back only clear puppies even when they might not be the "pick" puppy. Then you're breeding lower quality dogs in regards to working ability or conformation. Also, when making a breeding decision, you're eliminating a lot of dogs from the equation depending on if your female is clear or a carrier if you refuse to breed to a carrier. On top of that, the majority of stud dogs today, aren't tested anyways. So what do you do with many of the top dogs that are either being imported or are developing from year to year? If they're not tested...are they eliminated?

As it was stated earlier as well, the disease usually hits a dog way later in life. Most cases are past 10 years of age. Although terrible for the owner to witness, the dog has lived a long and happy life up to that point. This is also the issue when you talk about breeders seeing how their puppies are turning out. It's not just 8 years you have to look at, it's 10 or more years. At which point, the dog is likely to also have some other disease or have passed naturally or from that other disease.

Look up some of the DM threads on this forum...I saw one from a few years back that had popped up recently. The people "diagnosed" their own dog because the symptoms matched DM, yet a lot of other things could have the same symptoms. But this person felt comfortable enough to call it DM, post it on the internet, and talk about it as if it were a sure thing. So what if that's the kind of information the breeder receives? No vet diagnosis, just internet research leading people to believe their dog has DM?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Right. I'm afraid that puppy buyers will make buying decisions based on hips/elbows/DM instead of the whole dog, leading many breeders to throw the baby out with the bathwater genetically. Which would cause an even more limited gene pool than already exists.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Right. I'm afraid that puppy buyers will make buying decisions based on hips/elbows/DM instead of the whole dog, leading many breeders to throw the baby out with the bathwater genetically. Which would cause an even more limited gene pool than already exists.


Not only that, and the whole basis of "breed clear to clear" sounds great, but we can't even confidently identify clear dogs. I'm sorry, but knowing of two individual, completely unrelated dogs who came back with 2 different results, how can we even say that following those unwritten guidelines would benefit? We're narrowing breeding candidates based on a test thats been proven to give varying results. No thanks.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

On April 21st, I had to have my sweet 12-1/2 year old Slider put down. A couple years ago he was x-rayed and diagnosed with Cauda Equina Syndrome, however, as time wore on he started showing many symptoms similar to those of DM. He was again x-rayed, the CES had not gotten any worse so my vet felt he had DM. 

After he was put down I wanted a necropsy done, but she didn't have one special instrument necessary to perform the type of necropsy to determine if he had DM or not. Unfortunately, Dr. Clemmons DNA test isn't available so we did a DNA test via DDC and it came back that he was a carrier. So did he have DM? Vet/symptoms said yes ... DNA test of undetermined accuracy said no ... or does CES just mimic DM?

Sadly, I now have to test Slider's 10 year old son Bruiser tested to see if he is DM positive/carrier/free ... part of me doesn't want to know, part of me feels I should know.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> So did he have DM? Vet/symptoms said yes ... DNA test of undetermined accuracy said no ... or does CES just mimic DM?


Different types of back problems can look very similar. I had a client who brought his dog for boarding. He was about seven years of age and had previously been a very athletic and active dog. He was swaying badly in the rear when he walked, dragging his feet until his toes bled and had to be lifted into the man's truck. Because of his drive level, none of it seemed to bother him. My first guess was he was showing the symptoms of DM. However, because I had seen other types of problems that looked like that but were not, I gave him the name of an ortho vet who x-rayed his back. Turned out it was a disc in his middle back and after a couple of months of anti-inflammatories, he was completely back to his old self and jumping straight up into his truck from a stand. It was a big high truck but no problem...kind of shocking the difference in the dog. I have not seen a turn around like that one, it was pretty impressive.
Problems near the tail usually show themselves with a rear leg limp or discomfort if you lift the tail. There are some distinct signs. 

Anyway, I agree about the DM test. There were problems with it before they started collecting money to test for it. It will be a real problem once they come up with the test for HD and everything else. For every action there is a reaction and as much as we all like healthy dogs that live a long life, the question remains.... will you want to live with a dog that long if he has a temperament issue because someone focused too much on one aspect? Many times that is the trade off. Lots of issues facing the breed already but it's a good sales pitch so.....


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Hmmm - I did not say I would only breed clear to clear.....and I did not say this was my top priority - it is a only ONE thing to check....I don't care how a dog tests if I don't like his nerves or stability or working ability....I don't care how he tests if he does not have good hips/elbows....If I have 2 dogs equal in all else including ease of getting to him for breeding and one is +/+ and the other -/-, I would chose the -/-.....

I rule out more dogs on temperament and biddability and on what they have already produced than on DM tests.....

Lee


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11033-013-2904-9


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

The ONLY way to diagnose DM is on necropsy. It is IMPOSSIBLE to say for certain a living dog has DM


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> The ONLY way to diagnose DM is on necropsy. It is IMPOSSIBLE to say for certain a living dog has DM


Yes and no pain involved.

In living dogs DM is confirmed by a process of elimination. 

I'm happy that "some" people get there DM stories second hand and think that a dog living past 10 years is no big deal! Some of us are not that lucky!

Some of us have lived with DM dog, and we don't need lectures from internet "experts"... we have had our dogs cheated out of the last years of there 'short' lives!

So for some of us DM is a big freaking deal!!!!!!! 

*Wolfstraum*, if it makes a difference, I applaud your efforts! More and more breeders are testing for DM. That's how I know the numbers with Boxers and I have seen DM test results on Breeder pages with GSD's now.

You don't need to defend yourself, clearly you don't want buyers of your puppies to have to deal with a DM dog!

A dog that can "walk" for the entirety of his life is what most people expect! If a simple test can help eliminate at least one "factor" in keeping that from happening then that is a breeder I will support!

Most people that buy a "dog" have no idea what DM is?? Breeders that do test as far as "I" am concerned are performing at a higher level! 

Temperament, structure and conformation make "NO" difference if the dog can't freaking walk!!!

Just my "FIRST HAND" experience on my life with my "10 year" DM in dog.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Yes and no pain involved.
> 
> In living dogs DM is confirmed by a process of elimination.
> 
> ...


I hope you didn't take it that I was implying the DM is no big deal? 

I am 100% for testing. Yes there are different "types" of DM - different genes in different breeds. People can refer to the paper I posted - the abstract points out good gene identification in GSDs with DM. The research IS being done, and hopefully soon leading to more precise testing. 

No, I have not had time to dig up the information I have on DM occurrence in tested GSDs, when I claimed there is significant lower occurrences of DM in GSDs that tested clear. I'm on my 5th graveyard in a row, and with the holiday today and day clinics closed I'm sure you can imagine how busy emergency vets get 

But my reasoning for posting there is no way to know for sure - that's more aimed to people who say "well MY dog was tested clear and still got DM, therefore it's a pointless test". it is a diagnosis of exclusion, but without a necropsy you can never say for sure it was DM. German shepherds are prone to spondylosis which can lead to compression on the spine and similar symptoms. Slipped discs, other injuries, etc... the best thing to do to help scientific study is necropsy these dogs, which is hard for owners and I get that. 

But to say it's not 100% accurate therefor a pointless test?? That's just an ignorant statement, IMO. A dog with excellent OFAs could still develop arthritis and spondylosis and be gimp at 9 yrs old, so what's the point?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip18 said:


> In living dogs DM is confirmed by a process of elimination.



No. In living dogs DM is ASSUMED by process of elimination. And it's not uncommon for those dogs to show zero DM under necropsy. There is no way to confirm DM in living dogs.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> Degenerative myelopathy in German Shepherd Dog: comparison of two molecular assays for the identification of the SOD1:c.118G>A mutation - Springer


47 dog sample? 10 of which actually had DM...

Very basic knowledge of statistics will show you that the sample is way too small. 

I'm also not sure which "test" they were using and if the OFA or the other companies are testing for that gene mutation.

It's no big deal though...this might eventually become something useful, more likely it will just be a marketing tool for the next couple of years or a decade. Then when the accuracy of the test is higher, more buyers and sellers understand it, it might get implemented correctly. At this point, the risk just isn't high enough. I did enough research on the subject and I read somewhere that only about 10% of at risk dogs (across all breeds) develop DM, and again, it is usually very late onset.

If DM clear to clear is something that's important for a buyer, they can find that today. If temperament is more important, they can find that as well.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I was dissappointed recently, wanting a pup from a planned breeding that would have produced well, dogs complimented each other but wasn't done because both tested as carriers.

To do a breeding with both testing as carriers just wouldn't be responsible even if the test is faulty....and many puppy buyers do look at the DM situation. I still would have taken a pup from that litter, no problem however.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

When I started out OFA had just started certifying hips. It has now become the standard, even though it doesn't guarantee pups from two OFA parents will have good hips. Years later, we can look back and see just how much their method has improved things and it is not substantial. HD is still here. You don't dare not certify now, even in the face of that reality. I consistently have to tell people that two OFA parents do not guarantee good hips in the pups, only improve your odds a little bit. The breeder's knowledge comes into play more than those x-rays IMO.

I just went and looked at the OFA site. They are testing for just about everything now, they might even have a registry that states if your dog has a tail or not. 

There are realities in dog breeding that most who do not do it, can not really appreciate. I've watched new breeders come on this forum for years with their high set of standards. Some years later, I can see how much they have toned it down once reality hit. 

Breeding is like walking through a mine field. If you get to the other side without stepping on a mine, you can be happy, for a while anyway.
The tests claim they can help you determine where the mines are. If people make it across they give credit to the test. If they step on one, well...the test is not accurate. Should you do certain tests? Sure, but you still have to rely on the breeder's knowledge of the lines. Same thing, they can't always be accurate but some of them will be honest with you instead of attaching the OFA sticker on their web site and leaving the rest of the reality out of the discussion. No guarantees, test or not. This is in no way an exact science, even if science is making it seem like it can be.


----------



## Aviorwolf (Apr 10, 2013)

I also had a GSD with DM. I did considerable research on it, including corresponding with Dr. Coates as I was considering breeders when I was ready for my next GSD.
It is a complicated issue, but there is irrefutable evidence for a defect in the SOD1 gene being associated with DM. Interestingly, some dog breeds seem to have another genetic attribute which may "inactivate" the defective gene, hence the prevalence in certain breeds with much less frequency of the disease in other breeds. Personally, I would never, ever purchase a GSD from a breeder who did not test for DM. The test is about $60, available from OFA for home use, and will tell whether a dog has the defective gene from both parents, one parent, or neither parent. Current research knowledge indicates that a dog with two sets of defective SOD1 genes (A/A) will eventually get DM if the dog lives long enough. 
If one parent has the defect and the other is normal, the offspring each have a 50% chance of being either normal (N/N), or a carrier (A/N). The chances of a carrier getting DM are apparently virtually nil. This has important implications for breeders who may have a carrier dog with otherwise highly desireable characteristics that one would want to perpetuate. Two A/A dogs should never be bred since the puppies will all be A/A, ie. "at risk", meaning they will almost certainly develop the disease if they live long enough and do not die first from another cause. I have collected a whole LOT of info and am happy to share links, etc. if anyone wishes. I would definitely recommend Dr. Coates' 2012 video presentation; here is the link:
Dr Joan Coates presents information on Degerative Mylopathy
You will probably want to click on the PDF download underneath the video to get the power point so you can more easily follow along.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> So for some of us DM is a big freaking deal!!!!!!!
> 
> Most people that buy a "dog" have no idea what DM is?? Breeders that do test as far as "I" am concerned are performing at a higher level!
> 
> ...


I too have had a DM dog. Or at least my vet ruled out everything else we did not do the necropsy.

What I don't think you understand is that "GSD myelopathy" for lack of a better term is different than what boxers get. 

"Dr. R. M. Clemmons, neurology professor at University of Florida’s veterinary school, feels that the peculiar syndrome seen in our breed is also seen only (and even then rarely) in the Belgian Shepherd and the Old English Sheepdog, and he has believed that what is seen in other breeds may well be a different disorder. Those other degenerative myelopathies are probably not caused by the same immune-system-related deficiency as we have in the GSD, he thinks."

Sirius Dog

So while the test rules out DM it does not rule out "GSD myelopathy" which is how I understand it.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I sent my last GSD on her way at 8 years old...DM certainly seemed to be the obvious affliction which slowly crippled her....she tested and had both mutated alleles A/A.

SuperG


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

There are many things people can do to help research. Everyone thinks it's a money thing, but it's not. Again, the research IS out there. And even for the DM test, it's not foolproof in the breed, but the evidence is there.

" As part of an ongoing collaborative effort by research scientists at the University of Missouri and the Broad Institute, a free DNA test is offered for dogs that have been diagnosed with DM, and for older dogs in selected breeds. Details are outlined in the research section of the websites listed in the following paragraphs."

" At this time we have the required evidence that there is an association between DM symptoms and the mutation in the following breeds;

Bernese Mountain Dog
Boxer
Cardigan Welsh Corgi
Chesapeake Bay Retriever
German Shepherd Dog
Kerry Blue Terrier
Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Standard Poodle"

(From the second page of this article, follow the link under the first page)

Probably some of the leading research on the disease in GSDS -

http://siriusdog.com/degenerative-myelopathy-spinal-german-shepherd-dm.htm


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My understanding is not that GSD's ALWAYS have a different DM but that the other that is not currently tested for is prevalent in the breed. The DM that is being tested for can be in the breed. So, if that is true, then the test may be accurate in some cases. The issue is that two different companies are giving different results and that the test itself is not fool proof even within the same company.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> So while the test rules out DM it does not rule out "GSD myelopathy" which is how I understand it.


Although if you follow the link to page 2 of the article, there is information at the bottom asking for samples in helping to confirm the evidence that the DM test does show valid results for german shepherds.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> Although if you follow the link to page 2 of the article, there is information at the bottom asking for samples in helping to confirm the evidence that the DM test does show valid results for german shepherds.


I'm not saying the test is bad. I'm just saying that my understanding is that for German Shepherds it is less accurate than for the Boxer. If I was a Boxer person I would be looking for a breeder that does the test. As a GSD person I would be concerned yes but I would also be looking at other things. It would not be at the top of my list for ruling out a breeder and that yes I too have had a dog with DM and know the heartbreak of it.


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

GatorDog said:


> I personally know of multiple dogs who have been tested through two different labs with differing results.


I know of people that have posted that their dogs went from carrier to clear, but there were no posted results, just the post…. Question if all the tests were run through the DDC, which is a forensic lab.

And there are dogs that are advertised as clear, people bred to the dog since the dog was supposedly clear, bred to a documented clear and produce a carrier. Hopefully, both are being tested and/or retested.


----------



## Aviorwolf (Apr 10, 2013)

In response to Jax, I think DM is DM; there isn't a "different DM". As I understand it, different breeds may have some ability to inactivate, or block, the defective gene. Thus, the possibility of having a dog test A/A and yet not develop the disease.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aviorwolf said:


> I also had a GSD with DM. I did considerable research on it, including corresponding with Dr. Coates as I was considering breeders when I was ready for my next GSD.
> It is a complicated issue, but there is irrefutable evidence for a defect in the SOD1 gene being associated with DM. Interestingly, some dog breeds seem to have another genetic attribute which may "inactivate" the defective gene, hence the prevalence in certain breeds with much less frequency of the disease in other breeds. Personally, I would never, ever purchase a GSD from a breeder who did not test for DM. The test is about $60, available from OFA for home use, and will tell whether a dog has the defective gene from both parents, one parent, or neither parent. Current research knowledge indicates that a dog with two sets of defective SOD1 genes (A/A) will eventually get DM if the dog lives long enough.
> If one parent has the defect and the other is normal, the offspring each have a 50% chance of being either normal (N/N), or a carrier (A/N). The chances of a carrier getting DM are apparently virtually nil. This has important implications for breeders who may have a carrier dog with otherwise highly desireable characteristics that one would want to perpetuate. Two A/A dogs should never be bred since the puppies will all be A/A, ie. "at risk", meaning they will almost certainly develop the disease if they live long enough and do not die first from another cause. I have collected a whole LOT of info and am happy to share links, etc. if anyone wishes. I would definitely recommend Dr. Coates' 2012 video presentation; here is the link:
> Dr Joan Coates presents information on Degerative Mylopathy
> You will probably want to click on the PDF download underneath the video to get the power point so you can more easily follow along.


WOW thanks for the info and the input!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Aviorwolf said:


> In response to Jax, I think DM is DM; there isn't a "different DM". As I understand it, different breeds may have some ability to inactivate, or block, the defective gene. Thus, the possibility of having a dog test A/A and yet not develop the disease.


That is incorrect. GSDs have a genetically different DM that is prevalent in the breed. Look it up.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> That is incorrect. GSDs have a genetically different DM that is prevalent in the breed. Look it up.


First Biology is not my thing! I'd be much much happier today if I still had no clue what DM was! 

But as to DM in GSD's being different...from the second study Anubis_Star listed, I believe this part goes to that point:



*Dr. R. M. Clemmons, neurology professor at University of Florida’s veterinary school, feels that the peculiar syndrome seen in our breed is also seen only (and even then rarely) in the Belgian Shepherd and the Old English Sheepdog, and he has believed that what is seen in other breeds may well be a different disorder. Those other degenerative myelopathies are probably not caused by the same immune-system-related deficiency as we have in the GSD, he thinks. The president of the Kerry Blue Terrier Club reported DM in her breed, and there has been another indication that Auburn University was about to publish a study of a disorder that appears to be DM in Bernese Mountain Dogs. It is important to remember, though, that while other breeds apparently get some spinal myelopathies that are also degenerative, the DM of the GSD, at least, is probably an autoimmune disease. Dr. Dennis O’Brien from the University of Missouri has been working with the PWCCA (Pembroke Welsh Corgi Club of America) Genetics Committee, according to correspondence from Dr. Sylvia Lueck of Lacey, WA. A $45,000 grant proposal was submitted to the AKC Canine Health Foundation with support from the PWCCA to do a 2-year study, with 9 investigators, on DM in Pembrokes. Researchers include Dr. O’Brien and principal investigator Dr. Joan Coates of Texas A & M who had been doing a DM project in German Shepherd Dogs. The Corgi project was to be different, quite a bit more involved, Dr. Lueck says. Three major projects (DNA fingerprinting, epidemiologic data collection and a leflunomide trial) were proposed. At the time I corresponded with Dr. Lueck, she was unable to get any response regarding cooperation from the GSD Club of America.*

from:Sirius Dog


----------



## Aviorwolf (Apr 10, 2013)

With respect, Jax, I have "looked it up." Clemmons has a different theory of the etiology of DM, which is that is an autoimmune disease, somewhat analogous to MS in humans. He has no methodologically sound, peer reviewed research to substantiate this view, unlike those who propose a genetic etiology, such Coates, Wininger, etc. Coates, et al have done research based on DNA molecular genetics analysis, which shows that DM is related to the human disease of ALS, not to an autoimmune disease like MS in humans. Clemmons has been asked repeatedly to produce data supporting his theories, but has declined. He advocates holistic and exercise treatments, which will probably not do any harm, and may support a dog generally. However, there is no scientific evidence
to show that these are helpful in DM. There is an excellent general article on DM by Peter Kunasz that i highly recommend as a starting point. Here is the link:
https://www.magsr.org/GSDDM copy.pdf
For an excellent scholarly article please consider "Canine degenerative myelopathy: Biochemical characterization of superoxide dismutase 1 in the first naturally occurring non-human amyotrophic lateral sclerosis model". Here is the link:
Canine Degenerative Myelopathy: Biochemical characterization of superoxide dismutase 1 in the first naturally occurring non-human amyotrophic lateral sclerosis model
This article also has a long list of references for other research articles.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Aviorwolf said:


> With respect, Jax, I have "looked it up." Clemmons has a different theory of the etiology of DM, which is that is an autoimmune disease, somewhat analogous to MS in humans. He has no methodologically sound, peer reviewed research to substantiate this view, unlike those who propose a genetic etiology, such Coates, Wininger, etc. Coates, et al have done research based on DNA molecular genetics analysis, which shows that DM is related to the human disease of ALS, not to an autoimmune disease like MS in humans. Clemmons has been asked repeatedly to produce data supporting his theories, but has declined. He advocates holistic and exercise treatments, which will probably not do any harm, and may support a dog generally. However, there is no scientific evidence
> to show that these are helpful in DM. There is an excellent general article on DM by Peter Kunasz that i highly recommend as a starting point. Here is the link:
> https://www.magsr.org/GSDDM copy.pdf
> For an excellent scholarly article please consider "Canine degenerative myelopathy: Biochemical characterization of superoxide dismutase 1 in the first naturally occurring non-human amyotrophic lateral sclerosis model". Here is the link:
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Aviorwolf said:


> With respect, Jax, I have "looked it up." Clemmons has a different theory of the etiology of DM, which is that is an autoimmune disease, somewhat analogous to MS in humans. He has no methodologically sound, peer reviewed research to substantiate this view, unlike those who propose a genetic etiology, such Coates, Wininger, etc.


Interesting because I first heard about Clemmons from my trusted vet when my dog was going through DM. She was very aware of his research and was the one who suggested trying some of recommendations. 

He looks on the up and up to me. 

Roger M. Clemmons » College of Veterinary Medicine » University of Florida


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> Interesting because I first heard about Clemmons from my trusted vet when my dog was going through DM. She was very aware of his research and was the one who suggested trying some of recommendations.
> 
> He looks on the up and up to me.
> 
> Roger M. Clemmons » College of Veterinary Medicine » University of Florida


Hmmm... I believe the threading is "turning" and now it seems the points in dispute is the nature and structure of the DM gene in the GSD and Peer Review??

If the professionals are in disagreement on the nature of the DM gene in the GSD... I seriously doubt we will come to agreement on it here?? 

All I am saying is:








:hug:


----------

