# Done my research, time to begin feeding. Correct anything!



## vhrocks323 (Apr 6, 2011)

Aright guys, so i've bought books, talked to various people, and looked around quite a bit on the internet. I think i'm ready to really begin the raw feeding, but i want you all to review what i put on here, and give me any advice! Btw, i went to return some kibble the other day, and i told the girl at the store i've decided to go to raw feeding, and she goes "you aren't getting it from the grocery store are you?" And i replied "you know...i've researched this and a dog will be fine eating meat from the grocery store. They are designed to handle bacteria so much better than humans are anyway." And she's like "well...i hope he doesn't get sick. That food was not intended for him to eat, it's made for human consumption." Then i asked her if she had any advice on what meat to give my cats (at the time i didn't really know) and she quickly went "oh we have some stuff right over here you can give them in the fridge" .....i'm pretty sure she was ONLY trying to keep me in that store..that's why she was rolling her eyes at me when i said i'm getting my meat from a grocery store. Ugh. 

Anyways! So to start with, i'm assuming chicken wings, back and necks are best, and to do that for maybe a week or two. I will be feeding 6% of my puppy's body weight since he's growing, 3 times a day. Later when he's and adult i'll be feeding him 2-3% of body weight, twice a day.

I will be adding the following items to his food every day:
-Probiotic pills, opening the capsule into his food. 1 per day.
-apple cider vinegar, 1 tbsp a day.
-kelp tablets 2 while he's a puppy and 4 when he's and adult or 1 teaspoon of powder a day. OR if i can't find kelp, i'll use fish oil, 1200 mg soft gel, 1 a day.


*Weekly Menu*

Monday: Ground beef, beef heart chunks. Carrots, celery.
Tuesday chicken necks, thighs. green beans, broccoli
Wednesday lamb necks, meat, or bone-in-breasts. Zucchini, carrots.
Thursday Pork chops, steaks, or necks. Omit Veggies
Friday Ground turkey, breast. carrots, green beans.
Saturday Chicken livers, necks. broccoli, cauliflower.
Sunday Tilapia, Whiting, Salmon (NOT from Pacific Northwest). Omit veggies.


oh, and i will also be adding 4 drops of standardized grapefruit extract to the raw meat, just to be sure i get rid of the bacteria.

Thank you all for reading this!


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I would take out ALL veggies - it is completely unnecessary. I would also stick to one protein source for at least the first week and introduce new ones one week at a time. Where are your organs? I don't see any listed. You need at least 5% liver (at least 2 different types, ie. beef, pork, chicken, etc) and 5% other secreting organ.


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## vhrocks323 (Apr 6, 2011)

Verivus said:


> I would take out ALL veggies - it is completely unnecessary. I would also stick to one protein source for at least the first week and introduce new ones one week at a time. Where are your organs? I don't see any listed. You need at least 5% liver (at least 2 different types, ie. beef, pork, chicken, etc) and 5% other secreting organ.



Well i read somewhere that the carrots are good for them. My uncle gives his dog carrots every day with the other raw food. So i'll just keep those in. And i have my organs...that was the beef heart and chicken liver. I read for cats and dogs you shouldn't be feeding them organ meat more than twice a week because it's very rich in Vitamin A. That's why i don't have them listed for like every day.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

Unless you're pulping them, dogs can't derive any benefit from vegetables, as their stomachs aren't really made to digest them.

If a grocery store is your only source of meat, be prepared to spend significant amounts of money. I'd be seeking a butcher or some other source of *bulk* meat, to save money.

Pork can cause diarrhea in dogs, so beware that it may not be a realistic meat source.

What protein source are you planning on keeping "novel" for the dog in the event of allergies?


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

10% of the diet must consist of organs. 5% of that MUST be liver, the other 5% is another secreting organ. Not sure what you're reading, but it's wrong. Beef heart is NOT an organ. Beef heart is considered a muscle meat. I must have missed the chicken liver. Chicken liver is fine, but find at least 1 other liver source so you can balance out nutrients. You will also need at least 2 other secreting organs (ie. spleen, kidney, thymus, etc) for that last 5%. In the beginning it may be easier on the system to give their alloted 10% everyday, since too much organ at once can cause rocketbutt. Some people choose to give a week's worth of organs split up in 2 days instead of feeding OM everyday. It's just a matter of preference. 

The vegetables are honestly useless. It's fine for snacks, but they really contribute nothing to the diet. My own dog likes to eat carrots and she ends up pooping them out undigested.


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## vhrocks323 (Apr 6, 2011)

SchDDR said:


> Unless you're pulping them, dogs can't derive any benefit from vegetables, as their stomachs aren't really made to digest them.
> 
> If a grocery store is your only source of meat, be prepared to spend significant amounts of money. I'd be seeking a butcher or some other source of *bulk* meat, to save money.
> 
> ...


Actually, i found a store that has some pretty cheap meats. It's called Fiesta. I'll be sure to avoid the pork then..my dog is currently having some diarrhea issues. He has a bit of a sensitive tummy. And i'm not sure what you are asking...do you mean what is my main protein source going to be for him? I would say chicken, if he gets allergic to other things. I've already given him a chicken thigh, he is definitely not allergic to it.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

No, you need to have a source of protein that the dog has never eaten. That allows you to feed a dog solely a diet of something it has never eaten, in the event of allergies, so that you can do an elimination diet. 

You feed a diet only of novel food, and slowly add items back one by one, until the dog shows a reaction. In that way, you determine what the dog is allergic to. But, you have to be able to feed a diet of a protein the dog has never eaten before, for quite some time [months, if not longer] to do so.

You need to plan to start by feeding one thing, and slowly adding variety.
Starting out with so much variety generally ends in explosive diarrhea.


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## vhrocks323 (Apr 6, 2011)

Verivus said:


> 10% of the diet must consist of organs. 5% of that MUST be liver, the other 5% is another secreting organ. Not sure what you're reading, but it's wrong. Beef heart is NOT an organ. Beef heart is considered a muscle meat. I must have missed the chicken liver. Chicken liver is fine, but find at least 1 other liver source so you can balance out nutrients. You will also need at least 2 other secreting organs (ie. spleen, kidney, thymus, etc) for that last 5%. In the beginning it may be easier on the system to give their alloted 10% everyday, since too much organ at once can cause rocketbutt. Some people choose to give a week's worth of organs split up in 2 days instead of feeding OM everyday. It's just a matter of preference.
> 
> The vegetables are honestly useless. It's fine for snacks, but they really contribute nothing to the diet. My own dog likes to eat carrots and she ends up pooping them out undigested.


Hmm, alright. Quick question though...does this apply to cats as well? I only had beef heart for their "organ meat", but if it's not an organ then i dont think that will work. Alright soo i guess the vitamin A over dosage isn't an issue? Do i need to be feeding organ meat every single day or just every other day? I'll do chicken livers and either some other type of liver or beef spleen. I'll have to check the store to see what they have. And i guess i'll just blow off the veggies since they have no use.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

vhrocks323 said:


> Actually, i found a store that has some pretty cheap meats. It's called Fiesta. I'll be sure to avoid the pork then..my dog is currently having some diarrhea issues. He has a bit of a sensitive tummy. And i'm not sure what you are asking...do you mean what is my main protein source going to be for him? I would say chicken, if he gets allergic to other things. I've already given him a chicken thigh, he is definitely not allergic to it.


I would try the pork before ruling it out. I have never had a problem with pork. Just never feed wild pork. As for your other questions, no beef heart is NOT considered organs in the raw diet. The only reason I can see as to why you would have vitamin A overdose is if you do not have enough variety. This is why I suggest having at LEAST 2 different types of liver and 2 different types of other organs (4 different organs total) in order to try and keep a balance. This applies to cats AND dogs; neither are immune to imbalanced nutrition. Whether you feed organ meat everyday or not depends on your preference. I prefer balance by the day, so they get their alloted organ meat for the day everyday. Some people will feed a week's worth of organ in 2 days out of the week for the entire week for balance over time. The veggies can always be a treat, but it has no nutritional value. 

Remember, the more VARIETY you have, the more likely the diet will be balanced.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

Oh, it's definitely worth trying pork.
Just don't decide in your mind that it's a definite food source.


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## vhrocks323 (Apr 6, 2011)

SchDDR said:


> No, you need to have a source of protein that the dog has never eaten. That allows you to feed a dog solely a diet of something it has never eaten, in the event of allergies, so that you can do an elimination diet.
> 
> You feed a diet only of novel food, and slowly add items back one by one, until the dog shows a reaction. In that way, you determine what the dog is allergic to. But, you have to be able to feed a diet of a protein the dog has never eaten before, for quite some time [months, if not longer] to do so.
> 
> ...


I see. Well the only thing he has eaten so far is the chicken thigh. What would you suggest being the novel food?? I was thinking maybe lamb.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

What kibbles has he been fed? [If you list them, I'll find what was in them. I have a sick kid this afternoon, so I've nothing better to do.]
You'll need to go through and determine the protein sources in each of those, and add those to the list of "not novel" sources.

Only you can work out what a novel food source can be for your dog.
Whatever he has never eaten, and you can easily acquire for an extended period of time is potentially novel. Then you have to select one or two of those meats and ensure that he isn't fed them unless he needs an elimination diet.


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## vhrocks323 (Apr 6, 2011)

SchDDR said:


> What kibbles has he been fed? [If you list them, I'll find what was in them. I have a sick kid this afternoon, so I've nothing better to do.]
> You'll need to go through and determine the protein sources in each of those, and add those to the list of "not novel" sources.
> 
> Only you can work out what a novel food source can be for your dog.
> Whatever he has never eaten, and you can easily acquire for an extended period of time is potentially novel. Then you have to select one or two of those meats and ensure that he isn't fed them unless he needs an elimination diet.


Oh geez...well the main food he's been on is 4Health for puppies. He's also had a bit of Orijen for large breed puppies, a tiny bit of Science Diet for Puppies, and the vet gave us prescription Purina En Gastroenteric. I'm pretty sure that's it.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

The Purina and Science Diet make determining with absolute certainty what meats the puppy has eaten virtually impossible, since they use unnamed meat products [meat digest, meat meal, etc]. However, it's generally safe to assume that it was beef, chicken or pork.

So far for *sure*, the following foods are non-novel to the dog:
Lamb, chicken, turkey, salmon, herring, whitefish, walleye. It's safe to assume that beef is also on this list.

What foods *not* on that list can you reasonably obtain if it became necessary to eliminate a food allergy?


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## vhrocks323 (Apr 6, 2011)

SchDDR said:


> The Purina and Science Diet make determining with absolute certainty what meats the puppy has eaten virtually impossible, since they use unnamed meat products [meat digest, meat meal, etc]. However, it's generally safe to assume that it was beef, chicken or pork.
> 
> So far for *sure*, the following foods are non-novel to the dog:
> Lamb, chicken, turkey, salmon, herring, whitefish, walleye. It's safe to assume that beef is also on this list.
> ...


Umm..i honestly don't know  Maybe another type of fish, like Cod?


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

All the more reason to seek out a butcher, where you may be able to obtain rabbit, venison, etc.

Worse comes to worse, you can feed something like Addiction Dehydrated Raw, which has super-novel protein sources like Kangaroo, in the event you need it.

For now, just focus on feeding one protein source, with the skin removed for the first day or two, and watching the poo for signs of diarrhea. Slowly add the skin, and then organs, until the dog is eating correctly portioned meals of chicken.

Once that is perfect, then you can move on to adding other protein sources like turkey, pork, beef, etc, using the same incremental process.


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## vhrocks323 (Apr 6, 2011)

SchDDR said:


> All the more reason to seek out a butcher, where you may be able to obtain rabbit, venison, etc.
> 
> Worse comes to worse, you can feed something like Addiction Dehydrated Raw, which has super-novel protein sources like Kangaroo, in the event you need it.
> 
> ...


Ok, i think i could find some venison. I've actually talked to like 4 different butchers around here and none of them had things like rabbit or livers or hearts of any animal. They said they don't sell that stuff 

Alright so should i give my puppy a chicken thigh with the skin removed for dinner tonight, or do you have another part of the chicken that you recommend? And i'm assuming i'd do the whole chicken thing for like a week before switching to another protein source. The other problem i run into is the fact that he still has plenty of kibble and wet food left, and i don't want to just toss it out. So should i just give parts of the chicken thigh to him with the kibble?


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm really averse to mixing kibble and raw.
Not everyone agrees with me, but there are real reasons not to do it.
The canned food and raw would be fine, however.

You can keep the kibble around for an emergency, since it keeps for quite some time, or simply feed it on days you don't feed raw. There are no real issues with 24 hours of separation between raw and kibble.

Chicken thighs with all or most of the skin removed are generally a great way to start raw. Watch the poop to make sure it stays firm, and proceed from there.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Not sure anyone addressed this, I went thru the posts quickly...but heart is a muscle meat, not organ meat and is pretty rich. So I would add that as MM and in limited quantity. One thing I love to feed is green tripe, so beneficial and worth the extra $ it costs. I also feed thymus which is a gland. 

You don't have to remove skin on chicken, it has many beneficial nutrients. 
This site has great articles on raw feeding and sells product:
A Place for Paws - Columbiana, Ohio - New To RAW?


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## vhrocks323 (Apr 6, 2011)

SchDDR said:


> I'm really averse to mixing kibble and raw.
> Not everyone agrees with me, but there are real reasons not to do it.
> The canned food and raw would be fine, however.
> 
> ...


Ok. We'll just keep it around then. But the poop thing...my dog has been having a messed up tummy. He has like liquid diarrhea, but then at some point it'll just be normal, and once again, go back to liquid. Sooo..what should i do if i give him the chicken thigh for like a week and his poop doesn't firm up? I mean, obviously going to the vet is an option, but do i just keep feeding him the chicken thigh or do something else? Lately i've just been giving him pumpkin and white rice.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

Ideally you want to see him firm up. If he reminds too soft, add more bone, from chicken backs, and see if that helps.


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## Angela (Mar 22, 2011)

vhrocks323 said:


> I will be adding the following items to his food every day:
> -Probiotic pills, opening the capsule into his food. 1 per day.
> -apple cider vinegar, 1 tbsp a day.
> -kelp tablets 2 while he's a puppy and 4 when he's and adult or 1 teaspoon of powder a day. OR if i can't find kelp, i'll use fish oil, 1200 mg soft gel, 1 a day.
> ...


Sorry I don't remember how old the puppy is. Personally I would not start with just wings, necks and backs, not enough meat. I would mix one of those three with thighs to get more meat with the bone, or drumsticks with the thighs like you posted father down. 

We feed prey model so I don't do kelp, probiotics ( unless there is specific reason to) or supplements, nor do I feed veggies except for the occasional rare treat. Grapefruit extract? I don't see the need. 

You have a lot of ground meat in there. Personally we don't feed breast meat to the dogs unless I didn't get it cooked for us in time and it's past my comfort zone for humans, then they get it so it's not wasted. But that is rare. There are cheaper cuts that have a better meat to bone ratio.

My dogs eat pork with no problems and they have it pretty regularly. Unless your dog already has allergy symptoms I wouldn't both working out an elimination diet. We ended up on raw due to one of my dogs allergies but IMO there is no need to go to all the work if you don't need to.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

The problem is, if you've fed every protein source known to man, if the time comes that you DO need an elimination diet, you're SOL.

Taking a moment in the beginning to say "I'm going to leave these protein sources as novel for my dog" isn't an inconvenience, and it can save you a ton of trouble at a time when you don't have the luxury of it.

No one is suggesting an elimination diet to the dog. I'm suggesting that the OP set aside one or two protein sources so that an elimination diet is possible in the future, *especially* since the dog has had chronic soft stool on multiple diets so far.


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## vhrocks323 (Apr 6, 2011)

Thank you for all the advice guys. I think i am going to end up doing what my uncle does though. He gives his dog kibble with chicken necks, round steak, freeze dried carrots and 1 organic egg tossed in. The dog looks GREAT. He is so healthy and gorgeous. I just don't think i'm ready to begin feeding an ALL raw diet, i'm too worried i'll miss something and he'll get sick, or he won't receive all the proper nutrients. I'll probably feed EVO or Innova kibble, or maybe Orijen if the prices aren't too ridiculous. My uncle uses Diamond pet food.


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