# At my wit's end, thinking of putting my aggressive GSD down + experience with Prozac?



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

_"The bottom line is that some dogs are so poorly bred that no amount of training or socializing is going to overcome the fears and ghosts in their heads. It's my opinion that these dogs should be put to sleep and the owner should make a bigger effort to pick a pup from sound parents the next time they get a dog."_

- Leerburg | Dealing with the Aggressive Dog

The quote above is from Leerburg.com who seem to be very good GSD trainers and breeders. Very blunt advice above but it has resonated with me because it is so descriptive of my dog. "A few questions about aggression" thread that I posted a year ago...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ly/664353-few-questions-about-aggression.html

Basically....

- got male 100lbs 3yo GSD fixed a September 2016....his aggressiveness hasn't subsided
- sometimes he gets along with other dogs but still occasionally snarls, barks, lunges at dogs AND people
- he always has his muzzle on when we are outside & we go on walks in an isolated area
- he has been through reactive dog training but it really didn't work
- as of 3 weeks ago he started 40mg a day of Prozac, although the vet said it takes up to 3 months to see its effects, wondering if anyone has any very specific advice regarding anti-depressants, dosage, when and if it worked, etc.

TL;DR: I've tried everything. Prozac is my dog's last chance at living unless his aggressiveness subsides. Thoughts & experiences?


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EDIT: Also I have experience with GSDs and dogs in general. I know I shouldn't compare but my GSD who passed away never showed one shred of aggression and the only time he ever barked was to alert someone of danger. He actually saved another pets life but that's a story for another day. I really hate to put my GSD down but absolutely DO NOT want to wish I shoulda done so after he attacks someone.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Is he good with you and your family? Is this a situation where you could put him away when guests come over and just avoid putting him in situations to where he would be in contact with other dogs/humans?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

thegooseman90 said:


> Is he good with you and your family? Is this a situation where you could put him away when guests come over and just avoid putting him in situations to where he would be in contact with other dogs/humans?


I wondered that too. Is it possible to completely manage him? He would live in his own little world.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

thegooseman90 said:


> Is he good with you and your family? Is this a situation where you could put him away when guests come over and just avoid putting him in situations to where he would be in contact with other dogs/humans?


This is somewhat debateable. Is he good with the family & friends? Yes. Is he 100% guaranteed not to attack? Absolutely not. 

My reasoning as that keeping him confined to an isolated life isn't pleasant for me or for him. My other GSD would go to bookstores, hardware stores, etc. without a leash. You could whisper to him to obey your commands but he was pretty aware enough not to get himself in to trouble. I had never formally trained him but if someone asked "Can I pet your dog?", he would look at me first until I said "Go say hi!". It was awesome.

This dog is basically left in his crate at home because he will look out the window and bark at passersby OR muzzled when outside. What kind of life is that? It is more or less like being in prison with trips to the prison recreational yard where he is walked alone. He has also broken a side small window in my car from barking & lunging at people walking by my car. It is unbearable inside the car as well as his muzzled-bark is still very very loud.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

It wouldn't be so bad if you could go and let him run in the back yard, play fetch, and bond or something but if he'll just be locked in a crate 90% of the time idk that he would have a good life that way. Rehoming doesn't sound like an option, maybe someone who works with rescues would know. I'm positive if it was only dog aggression there would be a situation that works for him


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

You mention never having formally trained your prior dog, but I am curious what training assistance you have sought with the current one? For how long? What methods?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I guess it depends on the life. I only had to deal with dog aggression, with my previous shepherd. Even that made her a 'not go everywhere' kind of dog. She stayed home. She played in the fenced back yard. She was loved and, I believe, had a good life. But - she was very good with people and that made all the difference in the world.

I cannot imagine what you are facing. If he was good with you and your family, even in a restricted setting, I think he could have a good life. Regardless, your quality of life matters too. I am just so sorry that you are dealing with this. I wish I had some answers for you and wish you all the best.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Hellish said:


> You mention never having formally trained your prior dog, but I am curious what training assistance you have sought with the current one? For how long? What methods?


I've went to obedience and reactive-dog classes with the current dog. He is great...unless there happens to be another dog or someone he doesn't like around then there is no holding him back really. Again he is 100lbs and lunges towards eye-level of people. He is also unusually tall on his hind legs so usually I just leave. The trainers would basically train him away from other dogs anyway. In his defense, he can be nice and get along but I wouldn't take his muzzle off around other dogs that's for sure. 

I really seem to be badmouthing him but I know how the world works. Everyone is your friend until they have to sue you and I've tried every training remedy already. Except for Prozac which I never thought I would be administering. I hope it works.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

puffswami said:


> This is somewhat debateable. Is he good with the family & friends? Yes. Is he 100% guaranteed not to attack? Absolutely not.
> 
> My reasoning as that keeping him confined to an isolated life isn't pleasant for me or for him. My other GSD would go to bookstores, hardware stores, etc. without a leash. You could whisper to him to obey your commands but he was pretty aware enough not to get himself in to trouble. I had never formally trained him but if someone asked "Can I pet your dog?", he would look at me first until I said "Go say hi!". It was awesome.
> 
> This dog is basically left in his crate at home because he will look out the window and bark at passersby OR muzzled when outside. What kind of life is that? *It is more or less like being in prison with trips to the prison recreational yard where he is walked alone.* He has also broken a side small window in my car from barking & lunging at people walking by my car. It is unbearable inside the car as well as his muzzled-bark is still very very loud.


As to the bold, well given the choice between the death penalty and life in prison how many people choose death? Deaths kind of permanent or so I've heard, might want to see how he adjusts to life in prison before you make any permanent decisions. 

As to the Prozac thing, my sister is a big softie for animals and took a Mini schnauzer through a breed specific rescue cause she was her last shot. They actually told her if you don't take her she's getting put down, talk about a guilt trip! The dogs on Prozac, still a nutcase, still wears a muzzle most of the time. But she and my sister have a deep bond and the rest of us have learned to deal with its behavior to a degree. It's not all roses and if the dog wasn't 20lbs it would be vastly more dangerous situation. No happy story here, but that's my experience. 

Whats the story and current situation on this dogs training? Have you considered a board and train with a trainer used to hard aggressive sport dogs?


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

I will be watching your prozac journey with interest. My daughter's 11 month old pitbull/heeler mix was just started on it this week, but for separation anxiety.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

puffswami said:


> I've went to obedience and reactive-dog classes with the current dog. He is great...unless there happens to be another dog or someone he doesn't like around then there is no holding him back really. Again he is 100lbs and lunges towards eye-level of people. He is also unusually tall on his hind legs so usually I just leave. The trainers would basically train him away from other dogs anyway. In his defense, he can be nice and get along but I wouldn't take his muzzle off around other dogs that's for sure.
> 
> I really seem to be badmouthing him but I know how the world works. Everyone is your friend until they have to sue you and I've tried every training remedy already. Except for Prozac which I never thought I would be administering. I hope it works.


Are you using tools like a prong or ecollar? What experience do these trainers have, what is their end goal? Stomp out aggression or channel it to good use? How much time on a day to day basis are you spending training this dog on obedience?


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Tennessee said:


> As to the bold, well given the choice between the death penalty and
> 
> Whats the story and current situation on this dogs training? Have you considered a board and train with a trainer used to hard aggressive sport dogs?


Thanks for the specific advice.

Yes I have taken him to several individual trainers along with his above-mentioned training classes. One turned me down (too hard of a job). One told me it would be best to put him down (this was like a year ago). And the third told me board & train for $3000 (three-thousand United States dollars) BUT it was no guarantee that he would be cured of his aggressive instincts...ummm...no thanks pal. Personally, I don't get spending that much to train a dog rather than buying a new one unless there is an inordinately special bond.




Tennessee said:


> Are you using tools like a prong or ecollar? What experience do these trainers have, what is their end goal? Stomp out aggression or channel it to good use? How much time on a day to day basis are you spending training this dog on obedience?


Yes bought the best ones available. They don't work. Anything you can mention I have probably tried. I dunno...how much time should I dedicate to training? What else can I do? Where does it end???????

I feel its like telling your son or daughter they are going to be in the NFL or the next-Taylor Swift. You can do pretty much everything for them but sometimes things are out of your hands or not meant to be.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

puffswami said:


> Thanks for the specific advice.
> 
> Yes I have taken him to several individual trainers along with his above-mentioned training classes. One turned me down (too hard of a job). One told me it would be best to put him down (this was like a year ago). And the third told me board & train for $3000 (three-thousand United States dollars) BUT it was no guarantee that he would be cured of his aggressive instincts...ummm...no thanks pal. Personally, I don't get spending that much to train a dog rather than buying a new one unless there is an inordinately special bond.
> 
> ...


3k seems excessive, I've been quoted around 1,800 for 4 weeks for a company that trains police dogs. That's the reason I ask. 

I'm not bashing you at all, believe me! Some dogs just like some people come out of the factory broken. But your statement that your last dog had little formal training is what prompted the question. 
I spend around 1 hour or more 7 days a week training or playing with purpose (constantly working on commands during). I don't know if that high or low really, but it's been extremely sufficient in establishing our bond so that when I'm annoyed with my dogs behavior she stops it cause she cares more about pleasing me. 

I have no idea if any of that is really relevant to your situation.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Tennessee said:


> 3k seems excessive, I've been quoted around 1,800 for 4 weeks for a company that trains police dogs. That's the reason I ask.
> 
> I'm not bashing you at all, believe me! Some dogs just like some people come out of the factory broken. But your statement that your last dog had little formal training is what prompted the question.
> I spend around 1 hour or more 7 days a week training or playing with purpose (constantly working on commands during). I don't know if that high or low really, but it's been extremely sufficient in establishing our bond so that when I'm annoyed with my dogs behavior she stops it cause she cares more about pleasing me.
> ...


Yeah sorry for being so brash. I am truly fed-up. I have tried everything as I already mentioned. I really NEED to know the experiences of other GSD owners with anti-depressants. This NEEDS to work. 

The only difference between this GSD and my last is I adopted the current one at 1.5 years old (guess I know why original owners got rid of him now!) and my previous GSD I got as an 8wk old puppy. I don't really think most dogs need training if obtained young enough because they seem to mimic the owners personality (i.e. psychological imprinting).

I worked with another GSD owner that told me that she could help me train him and although he got along with her female GSD, when he actually showed anger towards her commanding him she had this real look of fear on her face. It was kinda funny actually as she kept telling me "there is no dog that i can't train!" or "ya just gotta be more patient!". LOL when my GSD had enough of her though. She probably wet her pants and I never heard from her again.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I know you must feel very frustrated. My Newlie has also been dog aggressive at times, although lately he has mysteriously seemed to improve and I have no idea why. Maybe he has just settled down since he is somewhere around 7 years old. But, my dog has always been good and trustworthy with people of all ages, including kids.

Several questions. Have you actually seen your dog show aggression toward people or are you just assuming he would be since he is with dogs? I am probably stating the obvious, but they are not necessarily one and the same. Also, did the trainers you worked with have verifiable credentials and substantial experience, particularly with German Shepherds?

Sorry, I posted this before I saw your last post. I have no experience using anti-depressants with my dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@puffswami,

First off, Frawley aka Leerburg was never a good breeder or trainer. That is the first thing you need to realize, don't listen to Ed (Leerburg) when it comes to tough dogs. 

You need to stop comparing this dog to your first dog. They are different dogs. 

You said:
*I don't really think most dogs need training if obtained young enough because they seem to mimic the owners personality (i.e. psychological imprinting).*

This is a very inaccurate statement, all dogs needs training. Getting a dog as a pup, may be easier as you can control a pup easier than an adult dog.

From what I skimmed, this dog needs exercise and serious obedience training. You need to get with a trainer that can show you how to handle the dog and work with him. Honestly, you need as much if not more training than the dog. Get with a trainer that can show you how to train and handle your dog. With your current attitude it is really not going to work with you and any hard to handle or deal with dog. 

I've spent a year working with a very tough, aggressive, driven dog that bit 5 handlers prior to me. I didn't give up and now I have an outstanding dog with an excellent bond. I was committed to make it work and while it was stressful and even scary at times, I never gave up or gave in. This dog gets better everyday. I am thankful now to have kept him and rehabilitated and trained him. Unfortunately, you may not be able to put the same time or effort in.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

puffswami said:


> Yeah sorry for being so brash. I am truly fed-up. I have tried everything as I already mentioned. I really NEED to know the experiences of other GSD owners with anti-depressants. This NEEDS to work.
> 
> The only difference between this GSD and my last is I adopted the current one at 1.5 years old (guess I know why original owners got rid of him now!) and my previous GSD I got as an 8wk old puppy. I don't really think most dogs need training if obtained young enough because they seem to mimic the owners personality (i.e. psychological imprinting).
> 
> I worked with another GSD owner that told me that she could help me train him and although he got along with her female GSD, when he actually showed anger towards her commanding him she had this real look of fear on her face. It was kinda funny actually as she kept telling me "there is no dog that i can't train!" or "ya just gotta be more patient!". LOL when my GSD had enough of her though. She probably wet her pants and I never heard from her again.


Understood, I'll step aside now. My experience that I mentioned with dogs and Prozac I would label positively. The dog went from a total lunatic to merely neurotic with pills and lots of training love and stability. I wish you the best of luck in this and I hope you can find a solution.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

newlie said:


> Several questions. Have you actually seen your dog show aggression toward people or are you just assuming he would be since he is with dogs? I am probably stating the obvious, but they are not necessarily one and the same. Also, did the trainers you worked with have verifiable credentials and substantial experience, particularly with German Shepherds?


Actually, one of my main hopes is that his aggressiveness subsides with age. I have heard from others that between year 4-5 will be a calming-down period. I wouldn't have been aware since my other GSD was great from day one.

I don't know what else to write to convey what I have repeated already. Yes. My dog is aggressive towards people. That is why he has a muzzle on all the time. In fact he will try to bite someones nose off given the chance. Yes....of course I went to GSD experienced credentialed trainers. 

If you have any knowledge about anti-deps for GSDs I would appreciate any feedback.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Hard to read your post and really give advice. Is your current gsd showing the proper traits of a breed with a modicum of human aggression and your previous was a bad representation? Or is it reactivity and nerves? Or what. It's like reading a book and inferring the gist of the story. So much more to picture in the mind. 
Who evaluated this dog? Where are you located? Maybe there is someone who could evaluate him better?
Leerburg was a puppy mill. I don't trust him.

Agree with @Slamdunc


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Slamdunc said:


> @puffswami,
> 
> First off...


Why is Leerburg a bad trainer? I have watched & read several articles and he seems most experienced and direct with his advice.

All my other dogs (NOTE: all were obtained as puppies) are PERFECT. I have never needed to use a leash (let alone a muzzle) with any of my dogs. I thought it was because I was telling them to sit N stay when they were pups. maybe i'm just super lucky though. I can tell my other dogs to stay in front of a coffee shop off-leash mind you...come back an hour later and they will not have moved. This has consistently been my experience with other dogs.



cloudpump said:


> Hard to read your post and really give advice. Is your current gsd showing the proper traits of a breed with a modicum of human aggression and your previous was a bad representation? [/MENTION]


I dunno. My other GSD was $1500 from a breeder but her new litters a decade later are $2500 per puppy....so I went the adoption route mistakenly thinking "how much different could it be?" 

Cliffs: Don't adopt a dog you can't strangle with one hand.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Some of us have been around the GSD world for a little while and know a little bit. Not everyone that has a website or sells dogs is an expert or any really very good at all, despite what they claim on their website.  His videos of other people training are good as long as he doesn't talk too much.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

*Cliffs: Don't adopt a dog you can't strangle with one hand.*

*The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." 
- Mahatma Gandhi*

Could be me, but this seems to be contradictory?


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Slamdunc said:


> *Cliffs: Don't adopt a dog you can't strangle with one hand.*
> 
> *The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."
> - Mahatma Gandhi*
> ...


Obviously I was joking. Having a 100lbs male GSD barking in your car (wherein you have to keep the windows down so he doesn' jump out) is not a pleasant experience. But maybe I am little bit more right-leaning nowadays thanks to my new GSD. I really really hope the Prozac works.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

What have you done to stop the barking? Have you tried correcting him for the barking? Do you keep the windows down because of the barking? Or did you mean you have to keep the windows up so he doesn't jump out? 

A dog barking in a car non stop is really annoying, I'm in a car with a dog 8+ hours a day. I wouldn't tolerate that, I'd put a stop to it pretty quickly. 

I have no experience with prozac and dogs, I don't know how well it will work. I have experience training and working difficult dogs. I think it is possible that you have more of a management and behavioral problem than a psychological problem.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Is he physically healthy and how much and what kind of exercise does he get? 90% of the time in a crate makes any dog crazy. Are you afraid of your dog? Has he been aggressive to you? I once read about a Pitbull rescue and the first thing they do with aggressive dogs is to harness them and let them pull a cart. She said that is solves 1/2 of the problem cases.
Do not compare your both dogs. It is not fair.
Throughout this thread I get the impression that you are looking for validation from the forum to put him down. 
I personally had one of my dogs (a mutt) put down because he was really going nuts and his aggression started with strange dogs, then he attacked a dog that he played with for 7 years, then he attacked our own dogs(his pack mates) and when he looked at me with a green glow in his eyes, and at the same time became afraid of me (he fled into his crate when he saw me in the AM!) I knew that 'that was it' and we had him put down. I didn't want to be that lady whose face was torn off by her own dog. That entire period was awful so I know what you feel. It was a sad form of relief once he was gone. One of my dogs celebrated by rolling and running around in the living room after she checked out his body. You have to look at your quality of life as well, knowing that you really, really tried so you won't have any regret once he is gone. By the way Prozac didn't do anything for my crazy dog and I couldn't afford to wait three months, seeing how fast he deteriorated.
Be safe.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> Throughout this thread I get the impression that you are looking for validation from the forum to put him down.


Imma lawyer so I can't be pragmatic and rational about stuff unless it personally affects me and turn into a softie. I would hate to put my dog down but I have to lookout for the welfare of others (esp children). I know better than to spend money and time with the end result being the same. Unless there was some very compelling emotional reason, I would advise others to be like me.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I am sorry to hear that you are in this position. I cast about trying to find help for my dog reactive GSD and he is a strong boy. I got some help from an IPO club, but the best help I got was from a LE trainer. My GSD is way better than I ever thought he could be. The thing is that I am so much more relaxed and I trust my dog more. I am not foolish. He is muzzled trained and never goes into the vet office without it on in case of other dogs. I am very careful with him--he is not loose with the UPS guy, etc.

Obedience training was the way to go--with a good trainer well versed in GSDs. Good luck.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I noticed you mentioned you bought a prong collar and said it didn't work. A prong collar is like any tool. You have to know how to use it and that requires a certain skill level. You have to know how to size it correctly, place it correctly and how to give a correction properly. It is kind of like using a hammer. A skilled carpenter can be extremely skilled with a hammer and some people can't hammer a single nail.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

puffswami said:


> Anything you can mention I have probably tried. .



What happened when you used a dominant dog collar with proper instruction by a knowledgeable trainer?

Maybe you already mentioned what happened somewhere else in this thread?


SuperG


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Hi Puffswami, I remember some of your previous posts. I am sorry that you are still having problems with this dog after all this time. I know you have been to see some trainers, but not all trainers are equal. I don't think you need to spend thousands to rehabilitate this dog, but you might want to consider getting a schutzhund or IPO trainer to evaluation him if you haven't already. These trainers work with protection dogs, many of which are GSDs. They are used to working with large, aggressive dogs and could probably give you an objective opinion about what to do. They will not be intimated by your dog. 

If he is really as aggressive as you say, cannot be managed, and is a danger to others, then perhaps drastic measures are warranted. However, I think there is a strong possibility that he would not be nearly as aggressive or unmanageable in confident, experienced hands. I think it's possible that you and this dog are simply mismatched. If the IPO trainer thinks your dog can live a safe life with an experienced owner, I might try to get him into a rescue facility that can evaluate him and find him a suitable home. Whatever you do, I think he should probably be re-homed since I do not think he is making you happy.

Your previous shepherd sounds wonderful. But please do not get a German Shepherd puppy or another large breed working dog without the expectation that they will need a lot of training, structure, boundaries, mental and physical stimulation, ect. It's just not realistic or fair to you or the dog. If you are trying to find a duplicate of your first dog, (I hope I don't sound harsh, but I don't want to see you disappointed again,) I'm not sure a GSD is for you.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It IS possible that this dog is just off his rocker, and no matter what, he won't change.

I think you need to get him evaluated by a really experienced GSD/working dog person. Someone like Slam who has been around hard, aggressive dogs enough that they know what they are working with. 

I know people who have a dog like yours and decided to just manage him. Stays at home, is never out in the (fenced) yard unless supervised. They cannot have people over unless the dog is crated. They did try a bazillion things, and did work with some very experienced trainers (owner was so dedicated, he even put a BH on his dog, which was a real feat of developing a bond with a difficult dog and a commitment to training.

The dog is happy - he gets very stressed if they take him anywhere, so the life of just hanging out at home and being crated suits him just fine.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

It sounds like if the Prozac does not help, you will be making a decision to pts or rehoming alabeit one that is suitable. I tend to view info and situations from a different angle thus my suggestion:

I would hold off on starting the Prozac until I had my dog temperament tested by a qualified German Shephed organization or someone that a good organization could refer you to. The reason I say hold off on the Prozac is because it will give the tester a much clearer picture of the dog. Once on Prozac his true temperament has been tampered with. 

I know that you have seen trainers and have not had success with them. As to why this is so is no longer relevant to you going forward but since you did choose to keep the dog this long, doing this one last thing (temperament test before Prozac) may help you in the Prozac decision or nixing it and deciding to rehome via rescue organization or a competent gsd person. I think it will also alleviate some regrets that you may have afterwards if you do choose pts.

I feel that my last sentence would be important as it seems that you are still grieving some for Kal and I don't want to see added grief for you. I read your prior thread of Kal. Your bond with him is just like so many here and the reason why we love this breed so much. It is truely special.

I hope you give this some serious consideration. Both for you and in fairness to the dog.

Also, if puffswami chooses to do this, can someone recommend a good rescue service. Also, I can't remember the organization that does temperament tests or I would provide it.

I'm sorry that you and your dog have found yourselves at this particular juncture.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@puffswami, where are you located?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I've had a human aggressive/situationally dog aggressive GSD and I had a DA Malamute. You have to do more managing, but with a ton of obedience work and keeping an eye on the environment, both were fine to be in public, without a muzzle. Since you didn't 'train' your last dogs, maybe you need to learn HOW to train. It's a learned skill and you haven't had to exercise it much in the past.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe he has some wires crossed, but I think in part at least, you're putting him in situations that are only making it worse. In Sept you couldn't crate him in the car because you had a broken latch so he was able to lunge at a woman. Now he broke a window because he wasn't in the crate. He goes ape at people or dogs out front so you crate him where he can still see them? You put a muzzle on him and then take him into group classes so he can frustrate and not have any release for all that. You described him as a guard dog, some guy said he's definitely working line and that's why he's this and that.

Whatever he is, he's a dog you need to manage different then your other one. He's not going to the bookstore, muzzle or not. He doesn't go say hi. He sits calmly at a safe distance on leash while you talk to people. He doesn't go it the car until you can contain him safely. Maybe you get up earlier and take him to the park before its crowded. Its not that tough to stay at a safe distance from people and most dogs if you plan it that way, just a little.

If he's not safe with your family, you have to always think about how you keep them safe. Whether or not your willing to live with him in a way that keeps him obedient and managed is going to be tough for what I think you want from a dog.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If he's a bite risk for people (or worse, has a bite history), he's not a rescue candidate. All GSRs that are part of AGSRA have signed a pledge not to place dogs with known human aggression issues.

When our rescue takes owner-surrender dogs to rehome (which is not very often), we actually have an indemnity agreement that the former owner signs, or we won't take the dog. Most people sign it without a second thought ("paperwork"), but PS, you're a lawyer so you know that indemnity agreements are no joke. I have no idea how many rescues require this, but rescues tend to share documents when they network, so it wouldn't surprise me to see it percolating out.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Thanks @Everyone for the advice....

1. Rehoming - I've considered it and am aware that another owner may be better suited. However, even if I have some paperwork relieving me of any financial liability, what about my ethical responsibility? I know that I have to be very vigilant when walking my dog. What if the next owner isn't and my dog attacks a child? This is why this GSD will either live with me or die.

2. Collars Schmollars - I've done all the paid training & read all the books & bought the prong collars (he broke his...so never ever again) and e-collars (which supercharges his rage...ummm no thanks). No I am probably not the best trainer. But how much training is enough? 

Have you ever noticed how some parents have children that go to college and others create problem adults/criminals without any discernible difference in how they were raised (maybe other than overall wealth which greatly reduces childhood instability)? That is how I feel about dog training. Some problems are out of your hands past a certain point. Statistically the best thing you can do for the welfare of your children is to raise them in a good neighborhood (but people like to take credit for things they actually had nothing to do with and feel like their "parenting" is why their child is successful....LMFAO!!) . 

Most of the "training" these children receive is absorbed without you having to remind them to stay in school, don't do drugs, etc. This is why rich kids have 90% graduation rates, less overall drug use, better-behaved (essentially they are peer-raised/influenced). Parenting/dog training has some value but the general temperment of the household is more indicative of future success....imo. But l **** well know everyone likes an underdog story even though the ACTUAL probability of achievement is much much less likely. All my other dogs have been calm and perfect without ANY training.

3. Anti-depressants - I don't know if this dog is "happy". That may be the root problem. Maybe actually changing his brain chemistry is what is needed. Until his level of calmness is stabilized I don't think any more training is beneficial.

thanks for reading


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

My 2 cents, it is in the GSD standard to protect and guard and they do that with aggression. It is expected and appropriate behavior for the breed. 

I am not going to bash what training you have done, but I honestly feel that this dog would be fine with an owner that accepts the breed for what it is or should be. Maybe I am wrong, but his aggression seems to shock and disappoint. 

I think a dog should enhance one's life. This doesn't seem to be what is happening here. I think rehoming this dog to somebody who is experienced with the breed is your best option for you and the dog. I don't think this dog should be handed the death penalty based on being an unruly German Shepherd that needs something different.

IMO, based on what you have posted here and on other threads, I don't think drugs are the solution. No dog should go through life in an altered mental state for simply being what he is, and what he is could simply be just not a good match for you. That is not grounds to drug him for life to "fit in" and you would have to ask yourself if you would be happy with this for the next ten years.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Rather then debate parenting or training with you, I'll just say this. Hanging out with you alone, keeping a distance from things isn't a bad life for him. It may not be what you were looking for, and I'm not saying what you want in a dog is wrong, its just not what you got. My opinion on drugs is that its not going to have a calming effect that you think will lead to being able to "fix" him with training. Its more likely to just confuse him. I think it will do him more good to just give him a chance to relax on his own, away from all the bogeymen that he comes across.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I've never known prozac to fix a case like the OP is describing. The drugs will fail. I would put money on that.

I've never run into a dog like that I couldn't at least live with. Every so often there is a case that is so bad where something is probably physically wrong with the dog where I can get them under control with me and living with me without much risk but would never work in their current home environments and would need to be put down.

The vast majority of dogs that exhibit this kind of aggression are edgy and that was what caused the behavior to occur and then the extreme nature of it happens just through practice and repetition of the behavior. Every so often you end up with one where the aggression is just straight up a core of who they are. These cases are very rare and typically they don't stop at strangers or strange dog interactions but those dogs will actually go after family. If he doesn't go after family that is a good sign that it is something that can be managed and if done properly fixed permanently or near permanently. The big problem is most dog trainers, even professional ones, don't have the knowledge to get it done, much less help you be able to carry on with the program after the dog leaves training. 

I'd suggest maybe looking into finding a skilled trainer like me to help you with this issue, but it sounds like you are already one foot out the door on this dog already.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

A secure kennel for the car (Ruff Tough is one option).

Solid Obedience foundation, layered with proofing. 

Keep him distant from things that bother him. Take him out early, late, to empty areas, trails. Put up a solid fence, train the dog not to bark. 

Play fetch in fenced in ball parks, at off hours. Make sure he has a very solid recall and down at a distance. 

Accept his limitations and you both should be OK. If a dog isn't handler aggressive, to his owner and family, that is enough to tell me the dog can manage to live without being a risk to public. 

Prozac, I'm not even sure that's the drug of choice, if you go the drug route, for aggression. I hope it works for you, but I am not sure it will. 

I've had dogs that didn't need training and dogs that really really did. The ones that did are the ones I learned the most from, but it's not necessarily easy. Once you figure it out, though, it can be surprisingly fast to get the dog where you need him (a matter of weeks) and then you can actually start enjoying him again.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Sounds like the dog needs to go to someone who knows how to handle him......there are people who can...assuming its not a legitimate psycho issue. Have you talked to any law enforcement personell about him? Its not impossible that your local PD may know someone the dog is suitable for......


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Baillif said:


> *I'd suggest maybe looking into finding a skilled trainer like me to help you with this issue, but it sounds like you are already one foot out the door on this dog already.*


This. 100%. It's not the trainer, it's the dog is the excuse. 
Bailiff, how many dogs come to you that are the same? All are different and have different requirements? 



I don't get why so many people hide behind excuses. If the dog is not what you want, then say that and figure it out. 
There are owners on here that have nervy dogs that are risky. They manage the dog, or do what's best for the dog. No, not every dog should be saved, but a dog that needs to be managed should not be killed because of unreasonable expectations.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

puffswami said:


> I don't really think most dogs need training if obtained young enough because they seem to mimic the owners personality (i.e. psychological imprinting).



I don't really know how to interpret this deeply puzzling statement. It flies in the face of everything I ever knew, learned, read about and/or observed in dogs. I do wonder whether this belief isn't a significant contributor to some of the issues that you've been facing. I suspect that it would be a huge challenge to find a suitably experienced (and willing!) placement for rehoming. That being the case, humanely euthanizing him may be the best option for both of you. 

Aly


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Sorry, I missed the part where the dog has already started Prozac when I posted my first reply.

Puffswami, I'm just curious why you chose to take this dog. By all that you have written about him, he is a working line with a working line temperament plus. With that said, how did your dog act when he first met you? This could give an indication of what his temperament was prior to all of this.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

1. Rehoming - I don't know how else to say it "I would be culpable under ANY circumstances wherein a future owner lost control of the GSD." If some kid loses his face because of my "rehoming" how will his face (or lack of) affect his future job, his social life, his dating opportunities? 

"Sorry about your disfigurement, Junior, but Tinder/Instagram/Facebook are primarily for attractive people...we thought we could train THAT GSD even though the previous owner did everything anyway before us". 

I'm sure I could find a "professional trainer" that finds him "trainable" as well. but JUST LOL. Just no!

2. Initial meeting - He got along well with me but I tend to get along with dogs. No barking no signs of aggression initially. He is fine inside the home as long as there are no strangers, maybe typical protective GSD, but still have a social obligation to those on the outside. I don't want to live like a prison warden, he probably doesn't like living like a prisoner. 

Probably just going to UPDATE in a coupla months. Hopefully the Prozac works and often patients don't need to take Prozac permanently but can be weaned off of it once brain chemistry changes. 

Maybe this youtuber can help me...






Thanks for the advice though.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

"Sorry about your disfigurement, Junior, but Tinder/Instagram/Facebook are primarily for attractive people"

?????


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I cancelled my reply. I hope for the best for this dog


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

One more thought, and I know it's a long shot, but could you ask the original owner who the breeder was? Sometimes breeders will take their dogs back if things aren't working out.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Did I miss something? Does this dog have a bite history?


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## Pleasant_Guy (May 31, 2010)

I recommend speaking to a qualified dog trainer with experience with GSDs. Below is one recommendation.

Euro-Training Kennels  

Dog trainer in Martinez, California
Address: Martinez, CA
Hours: 9AM–5PM
Phone: (925) 228-1206

My comments on his FB page:
Without help from John - our GSD would have a less fulfilling life. Our girl, Reva, was born and trained in Germany and later in the US to be a protection dog. After one session with John we understood our dog better and have lived in harmony ever since that happy Saturday. I recommend John to anyone needing help with strong headed dogs. Thanks John from Debbie and David in Benicia.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Did I miss something? Does this dog have a bite history?


Don't believe so. Like ronin....


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

puffswami said:


> 1
> 
> Maybe this youtuber can help me...
> 
> ...


Not if you actually want help.

Jeff Gellman is not a good trainer for hard aggressive dogs.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If you really want to give your dog his best chance at a real life, contact Bailiff on this forum and send your dog to him for board and train.

He can actually see and evaluate the dog for you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Meh. Inside of 3 days I'd probably have him playing in group play.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Well, whatever the motivation or style of expression, at least you're thinking safety. Good luck with him. Hope it works out for the best.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

For what it is worth, I think you need to re-evaluate your expectations for this dog, and build a program for him based on who he is, and where he is now, and a reasonable 6 month plan, and 12 month plan for him. 

Keep a diary. Make an entry each day, basically what went right, what went wrong, what you did, if anything worked, if anything didn't and something you liked about him, and something you disliked. 

After six months write a progress report on the dog. Write down your expectations for six months and evaluate him against them. Then read your diary, start to finish. Then write your thoughts about his progress or lack thereof. This can be helpful because dog's improve so gradually that we sometimes do not notice it unless we look at where he was six weeks ago or six months ago. 

If you make an active plan for management, leadership, training, exercise and work with an experienced trainer/behaviorist, and you do not see significant change in him within six months, then maybe your dog is one of those very few that ought to be put down. The thing is, that if you go into it believing that this is the case, the dog is a dead duck. I am really worried because most of what people have suggested, well the attitude is, "tried that, didn't work," "collars, schmollars," "really, I've tried everything." I know these are not exact quotes, but right now this dog's life is in danger, could be in danger as much from your attitude as anything else. If you do not believe or are not at least somewhat open to a training method, then it doesn't stand a chance. 

I hope you will find some spark in your dog that is worth working with.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

I really hope you don't kill this dog, it sounds like it's just a hard dog that you don't know how to handle. 

you really should find a trainer that can handle KNPV or MWD dogs. I'd be absolutely stunned if a trainer like that couldn't turn your dog around. 

Your description of some of your dogs behavior sound like what some people specifically want because they're able to channel it.

ETA Look up Rudy Pegge and his progeny as an example, your dog doesn't sound anywhere near as hard as that.


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## Doosenberry (Aug 9, 2017)

Has he always been this way?

My male German Shepherd was an amazing puppy when I got him. Very obedient. Loved to fetch. Loved to play with other dogs. When he was 7 months old I got a 2 month old female puppy. Long story short-er, my male got dog aggressive at our local dog park because of my female and his possessiveness over her. I had them completely separated at one point (kept at different houses) when she had her first heat cycle (he was 1 1/2 years old) and he went back to being the awesome puppy I had when I got him at 3 months old. I reintroduced them together and he went back to dog aggressive.

Over my 2+ years of owning him I've done more training of myself than of him. For me, it's been putting him AND her into successful situations and tailoring their life according to their personalities. I do still train my dogs and its a thing a dog owner needs to keep up on. He's come a long way with his aggressiveness towards other dogs when he's with her. At this point he only has issues with male dogs that "test" him (posturing, putting a paw on his back, that bs) and I'm VERY proactive about those situations and avoiding them to begin with. It's a lot of work and I'd say weekly I tell my wife I want to rehome my female, but she's still here. If there's a will, there's a way. For some people the effort isn't worth it.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I realized pretty early on this guy doesn't want this type of dog(and I'm assuming it's not a loose screw case). He wants to dope him up so he's mellow and friendly. If that's the dog you want fine I have no qualms with that. So even if he is the hard and aggressive type that LE would like, op doesn't want that. I.e he's unwilling to learn to handle it or spend the time and money training it. And once again that's not a knock again op or a judgement. Could he possibly have him evaluated by LE, as suggested(and if it's determined he's workable and not defective) could he just donate him to LE as a potential working dog? Forgive my ignorance because I don't know, but surely someone here will.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

LEOs don't want a basketcase dog if that is the issue. They don't want to deal with a problem dog anymore than anyone else.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

OP, somebody commented earlier that you seemed to already have one foot out the door and I guess that's the way I feel, too. I am not saying you haven't tried because I am sure you have, but something is missing. Most people who have come to this board with a decision to put their dog down because of aggression are heartbroken, even if they believe it is the right decision. It is hard to read people in an internet forum, so I certainly may be mistaken, but I don't feel that from you. It almost feels like you don't even like the dog. Maybe it's just frustration, but that's the way it feels to me. It's like you are mad or disappointed in him because he is not the dog that you loved and lost. And if you expect that, then this dog will never measure up no matter what he does.

When I lost my first dog, Max, I knew I would get another dog, and I knew I would take care of him and even grow fond of him, but I didn't think I would ever love another dog the way I loved him. Max was gentle and placid and easygoing. He was an older dog and one that was easy to get along with, a stern look or word was about all it took. In retrospect, I probably should have waited longer to get Newlie, but I was so grief-stricken after Max died that my husband, who really was not an animal person, persuaded me to look for another dog. We got Newlie about a month after Max died and a whirlwind entered our lives. Newlie was several years younger than what we thought he would be, relentless energy, bouncing around all over the place, a goofy wild man who was impulsive and stubborn and who wasn't inclined to like other dogs. My husband and I were older people and he certainly was not what we expected nor was he like our Max. But what we found is that he had many excellent qualities of his own once we opened our eyes to see them. Newlie was loyal and affectionate, he liked people and was sweet with children, he was extremely vocal which helped when I was lonely, and he made us both laugh. Although Newlie was not a hard dog by any means, he was a stretch for us and we had to be open to change. I had to lose the tentative voice and learn to speak firmly and demand compliance for one thing. As stated so often on this forum, I had to learn to deal with the dog in front of me, not the one I thought he was going to be. Now, I don't pretend to be any kind of expert, I make mistakes every day, but although others might have been able to do a better job than me, no one could love Newlie more than I do. And I think he feels the same way about me.

So, take a minute to think about what we have said, and before you say "No, I have already tried this or that" maybe just consider that there might be much that is worth saving in this dog if trained by the right people. Maybe there are still good things in him even if he is not the dog you loved and lost.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

puffswami said:


> Thanks @Everyone for the advice....
> 
> 1. Rehoming - I've considered it and am aware that another owner may be better suited. However, even if I have some paperwork relieving me of any financial liability, what about my ethical responsibility? I know that I have to be very vigilant when walking my dog. What if the next owner isn't and my dog attacks a child? This is why this GSD will either live with me or die.
> 
> ...


Collars Schmollars--- no training tool is going to help unless it's used correctly, which I highly doubt it was. And people seem to try something one time, probably incorrectly, then say "it didn't work", where in order to have success you might have needed a bunch of correct repetitions on that tool. 

In order for anything to work you've got to want to help the dog and every post pretty much sounds like you're exasperated with him, disappointed, and want it to be over

Lastly I totally agree about Ed Frawley. There are some good videos and classes by other people on Leerburg

You said until he gets a new level of calmness more training is pointless. But how is he going to achieve that calmness without training? You can't get him there. You need someone who can to help you


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

PS, the one thing I've learned by fostering a lot of different dogs, with different genetics and personalities and backgrounds, is that I can't stop learning. Ever. Just when I think I've got a surefire method to accomplish X, a dog comes along who simply doesn't learn that way and is resistant to everything I know how to do. That dog then nudges me out of my comfort zone, and I have to learn a new approach. This has been going on for years. It can be frustrating (and humbling)....but the perspective over time is really interesting. They have such different quirks and personalities!

One of the hardest dogs we ever had in rescue years ago might have become a mess in a regular pet home, so we didn't place him in one. He is an excellent dog in the hands of someone confident, experienced, and strong. He's way too much dog for an inexperienced home though. His adopter started him in IPO because it was a training style that worked for the dog -- she'd never done IPO, but she wanted to do what worked for the dog. He's an incredible dog now and lives for his Saturdays on the field. He has an outlet for pent up drive that was frustrating him in his previous life. His owner describes him as the best dog she's ever had -- but it's because he's fulfilled, well understood, and appreciated for what he is. She got out of her training "comfort zone" for the sake of her dog, and she's loving it.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

These are just some things that I have picked up from watching this thread specifically and an observation concerning two vids with this trainer. the one here and another that this trainer has showing another aggressive dog being rehabilitated. I figured I would share my observations.

The op here stated that everything he tried did not work including e collar thus shutting down any recommendation that would have been offered of it. but then post a vid of the use of e collar for Rehab aggression.

The next is just my observation. "Girl" is the gsd that the trainer used in both vids. I do not know which vid took place first. On the vid not posted here, Girl was constantly circling the rehab dog. Furter on in the vid, Girl nips at that dog in the face. The trainer does acknowledge that what Girl did was bad.

In the vid on here, Girl looks happy well behaved but then decides to plant herself very close to the client, blocking any forward motion if the client chose to make. Girl again looks at ease and mouth open but if I were the client, I would not appreciate that dog blocking me at any time. It may look like Girl may have been trying to solicit attention from the client but that is not how I interpreted what I saw.

It's just some things I noticed about Girl.
I didn't finish watching the rest of that vid as it froze on me.

Just some thoughts I wanted to share.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

thegooseman90 said:


> *I realized pretty early on this guy doesn't want this type of dog(and I'm assuming it's not a loose screw case)*. He wants to dope him up so he's mellow and friendly. If that's the dog you want fine I have no qualms with that. So even if he is the hard and aggressive type that LE would like, op doesn't want that. I.e he's unwilling to learn to handle it or spend the time and money training it. And once again that's not a knock again op or a judgement. Could he possibly have him evaluated by LE, as suggested(and if it's determined he's workable and not defective) could he just donate him to LE as a potential working dog? Forgive my ignorance because I don't know, but surely someone here will.


I get the same impression from what I'm reading. Their last GSD was an easy keeper, leaning more toward the golden retriever type temperament. This "new" GSD could be more aloof and with a more serious temperament. Being accustomed to the former the OP is comparing the two and believes the latter has a screw loose (which may or may not be the case).

The op's story of their dog being too much for the trainer does not surprise me, many so called trainers find themselves outside their league with some dogs.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had a rescue dog like that except he was only aggressive if a stranger was within arms distance and could possibly grab him. He was older by the time I gave up on rehabbing and decided to manage him for the rest of his life. He was a good dog at home, but I could not have a steady stream of guests. No dinner parties, no drop ins. He was good with people who were relaxed around him, so I taught him a string of calming techniques. He was ball crazy, so guests I knew could be relaxed around him were given a bag of tennis balls at the door for a planned visit. When he realized they were not going to take him, he became their best friends. His world was limited to walks in quiet areas and our home from then on, but we never had another incident. And yes, he had a bite history.

The OP needs to realize this will never be the dog he lost. No Keff Gellman video is going to fix this dog. Some things can't be fixed. Now, he has to decide if he wants a dog that must be managed for the rest of his life. When we have an easy dog and end up with a Cujo from rescue, it's because we haven't learned how to evaluate a dog before taking it in. Mine came from a private party, I was the evaluator. I kept him because he was a good pet dog in the home and a good watch dog. I also felt I would not find him a better home. He was not my prior dog, and it took a lot of time and training to acknowledge that. My next dog was a go-everywhere dog and still is because I intentionally looked for it.

Until rescues do a better job of evaluating and placing dogs, we will see more stories like this.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

newlie said:


> OP, somebody commented earlier that you seemed to already have one foot out the door and I guess that's the way I feel, too. I am not saying you haven't tried because I am sure you have, but something is missing. Most people who have come to this board with a decision to put their dog down because of aggression are heartbroken, even if they believe it is the right decision. It is hard to read people in an internet forum, so I certainly may be mistaken, but I don't feel that from you. It almost feels like you don't even like the dog. Maybe it's just frustration, but that's the way it feels to me. It's like you are mad or disappointed in him because he is not the dog that you loved and lost. And if you expect that, then this dog will never measure up no matter what he does.


Well noticed. I agree. It doesn't help the dog and the cause.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

There's 2 side notes in this thread I think are good points. Mawl said dogs should enhance your lives and Luvshepherds mentioned rescues needing to do a better job with evaluations. I know we've owned a couple of dogs that I didn't particularly like. Its nothing but a responsibility to provide for the dog at that point, and it makes it a pain in the neck. I completely understand why the op is taking the position of not wanting to rehome a dog he thinks may be a danger, and I also understand not liking the idea of taking on the responsibility of providing for a dog you don't even like. Whether I agree with how he's handling or handled it, I won't say he's wrong for his feelings.

My point is be careful where you get a dog. Its the same thing as all the threads about going to a responsible breeder when it comes to rescue. For every competent, knowledgeable group, there's a group of no bad dog goofballs you shouldn't listen to.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I dont have personal experience with prozac but know others who have had pretty good success with it, but this was with neurotic or anxious dogs, not so much aggressive. 
Definitely would not hurt to try it out awhile. I know you have tried a lot of trainers and training techniques but I feel like going to a trainer that is experienced with bite sports like IPO would really give a better read on your dog. There are so many mediocre or bad trainers out there and this dog maybe just needs to find a way to channel his energy, maybe it is frustration? (btw I am by no means saying train him in bite sports) Out of the many dogs my trainer has worked he has only spoken of maybe a handful that he believed had a screw loose that needed to be put down. A prong and e collar can be great tools if completely understood and used properly. Many do not know that a prong or e collar can be used to encourage a behavior rather than punish it depending on the force/stimulation level that it used. Using too low of a stimulation level on the e collar or prong can make the dog hyped up if the timing is wrong, encouraging his aggression. Not saying you did this, just bringing it up as a point. Either way I hope the prozac helps and you can find a solution to this issue that makes both you and your dog happier.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

With a dog that responds aggressively to a prong or e collar correction, it is generally hard corrections or higher levels of stimulation that increase aggression. 

With dogs that react aggressively to pain induced corrections, i.e. Prong or E collar corrections, higher levels or harder corrections are usually the trigger. Some dogs will redirect to the handler for a pain induced correction. There is usually a lack of respect for the handler that goes along with this response, but not always. 

Light corrections or low level stim will increase drive, but generally will not cause the dog to redirect to the handler. Unless, the dog is already so spun up and frantic that any additional stimulation causes the response. 

The OP's dog may be one that has handler aggression with him or will redirect to him. Based on what I have read about this dog, I do not think the OP has used the right training techniques for this dog. I would take a different approach with this dog and work the dog differently. 

Looking to leerburg or Jeff Gellman is absolutely not going to help or the right approach for a dog with aggression issues. I get the feeling the OP has done all he can or wants to do or is able to do with this dog. He seems to have tried and is over it. I do not think he is willing to invest any more time and certainly any money to fix or train this dog. I can understand that to a certain extent. I was almost at that point with my Patrol Dog this past January. I was very close to the guarantee running out and I would not be able to return him to the vendor. It was a tough decision and I was very close to sending him back. The thing that stopped me and caused me to keep him was knowing that he was going to nail his next handler, and the trainer. I knew one of two things would happen, he would be PTS or the training would be really rough on the dog. Knowing that, I decided to keep him, stick with him and keep working. He is doing fantastic now and I am super happy I kept him. There are a lot of handlers that tell me they wouldn't work him, couldn't handle him or have kept him. I figured I was this dog's last chance and he doing great now.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jim, good for you for persisting!

I rescued a beautiful show line female a couple of years ago. Turned out she was very dog aggressive, but fine with people. One minute, she'd be wanting to play with the dog, then almost instantly, she'd switch, and BAM! She'd try to nail her playmate. When she bit, she hung on like a pit bull, too.

Worked with her, got help from several trainers. I could take her in a large class, on leash, and she'd behave quite well, as long as she was under my control.

Then twice she got out of her kennel, due to me not latching a gate securely. The second time, she killed a small dog, the first time she injured a Golden with several nasty bites.

I had her put down. It was just too much of a liability. I wish there's been another answer. :crying:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I saw this video and thought of the OP. I actually really like what I've seen of the GSD in this video. Could be a "simple" fix, like this for the OP with the right trainer. Or maybe not, because nobody has seen the dog. 

I understand dogs are supposed to enhance our lives, but sometimes it's fairly easy, with the right methods, to get them to a place they can enhance our lives, other than be a drain. 






I'd also argue that dogs don't have to primarily, or exclusively enhance our lives to be worthwhile. Often, my dogs prevent me from going out with co-workers or friends, or cut that time short, and from traveling, or even from taking certain types of jobs - could be argued that's a huge negative for any dog owner, no matter how great the dog. We just decide that the dog is worth it. 

Vet bills happen, that's tough, and dogs get sick, that's hard too. Financially, emotionally, time, clean-up. 

We usually get companionship from a dog pretty much no matter how sick or old, but sometimes dogs don't really "enhance". 

At some point, the owner's commitment to our dogs does matter. I try my very best to make decisions on what I do with my dogs, based on the dog's happiness and benefit, not my own. I can adjust what I'm doing and work with the dog to make him fit in better with my lifestyle- to make me "happy". The dog just does whatever makes sense to him at the time- he doesn't really think about making life easy for me. I'm not afraid to punish him or cause him temporary stress to get there, as long as it is done properly. 

This is not to say someone who euthanizes a dangerous dog is wrong - especially a dog that could hurt a child. I just would like to see people try their best, first, for real. 

Ultimately, dogs are "just" animals, and the owner can legally humanely kill them whenever they want for whatever reason they want... that's reality. And they can be killed for just being a stray, or for having the wrong coat color as a pup, or whatever. 

Taking a life of a companion animal that isn't working out based on behavior problems alone, should not be done lightly. Certainly, certain dogs are more difficult, and it's not all about how they're raised that determine that, but with some simple techniques and learning, most people can learn to manage and train their dogs to be at minimum safe in society and not a danger.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@puffswami, I looked back at some of your earlier posts and just read an update from April of this year. Unfortunately, you were given some really screwed up advice about WL GSD's by the trainer you went too. What he told you makes little to no sense to me. It is obvious that trainer does not know much about WL GSD's and their temperaments based on what you posted. 

If you had found a decent trainer that knew how to handle dogs, you wouldn't be in the spot your in today. 

Looking at the first pic you posted, I'm not sure he is a WL GSD. He looks more SL to me, possibly not even German, probably a mix of lines.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

***************************************************



Below is *THE GOLDSTAR* post and I'll kindly tell ya why....




Sunsilver said:


> Jim, good for you for persisting!
> 
> *(Wow...this person is appreciates persistence/dedication...well I have been persistently training my dog for over a f-ing year!)*
> 
> ...




Don't mean to bash on you but this seems to be the trajectory I'm headed on. I assume you would have preferred to put your dog down BEFORE she injured and killed two other dogs. You should really count yourself lucky that dogs are considered as property in a court of law. If it had been someone's child you might have made this post from a jail cell. 

Easy to say more training is needed but there is no end to that. Also people selectively remember what is positive and there is a survivorship-bias (how many of these retarded dog-trainers DON'T talk about the dogs that are unmanageable/fail OR how they pre-select only the dogs that are likely to succeed in the first place?)

This is very similar to weight-loss in people, its easy to be a personal trainer who helps someone lose weight for an upcoming wedding or something...five years later though....back to being a fatso! So much for all that "personal-training"...LULZ!

My guess is that they also don't mention the statistics/failure rate because more than a few failures would reflect poorly on the training rather than their abilities. So JUST LOL at some dog-training dope telling you there no dog he can't train/only a few are untrainable/etc. what would a dope whose income depends on positive-feedback be expected to tell a paying customer? 

Even the trainer who wanted $3K told me it wasn't a guarantee...just shaking my **** head!

EDIT: I'll just keep my thoughts to myself until I update re: Prozac....Thanks for the advice though (not being sarcastic btw).


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

@puffswami

I have had foster dogs on Prozac and other meds for behavioral issues, yes including aggression. 

I am not sure what your vet has told you to expect... but they are NOT a magical cure. Prozac will NOT stop the aggression alone. 

Part of your dog's aggression comes from his emotional state... the other part is a LEARNED behavior. Classical conditioning. There are stimuli and situations that will cause an aggressive response without the dog being in a "negative headspace" if you will...

The prozac will work to reduce anxiety and stabilize his mood... but without using training in conjunction with the medication. You will NOT BE SOLVING the issue. 

Honestly - the SSRIs are only good to get the dog into a headspace where they are level enough for the training to sink in. 

They are a tool in behavior modification but will not work alone. My vets have always been very clear about that when we discussed medication options. 

If you are not willing to put anymore training into this dog... you are just wasting your time waiting for the meds to kick in.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

> Easy to say more training is needed but there is no end to that.


I just read this whole thread, and I'm confused. The tone of your posts, as others have noted, is that of someone who has given up and is looking for validation of their decisions rather than help. The specific quote you used of Leerburg's site seems to suggest just that. You have also said, more than once, about there being no end to training. Well, there isn't an end to training...even for dogs that don't have that level of aggression. My dogs were trained and exposed to things their whole life. The training never ended. And if you have a shepherd, the training should never end.

People have suggested that you get the dog evaluated by a LEO or someone experienced with german shepherds. They have suggested you can rehome him to someone experienced with harder dogs. Is there a reason your opposed to those suggestions? You make the leap to the dog biting someone's face off. That's quite a leap when no one suggested to give the dog to Joe Schmo down the street.

And why are you so defensive when people are trying to help? If what you're doing is not working and you're at your wit's end, shouldn't you be open to other suggestions? Just because you've been through training, doesn't mean you've been to the right trainers. And rehoming a dog to an experienced home, doesn't mean someone's face is going to be ripped off. You're responding emotionally and not logically. Your dog doesn't even have a bite history. Dogs with worse histories have been successfully rehomed with the right people. I think you're just not the right fit for this dog.

I don't know, if the drugs don't work and it comes down to rehoming to an experienced home or putting my dog to sleep, I'd rehome the dog. And that's not to say that I think every dog can be saved. I don't. But I've worked in rescue (I've fostered Rotties, Pitts, Shepherds, Chows), and nothing you've said about the dog makes me think that this dog should be put down at this time. At least have him evaluated by someone who knows what they are doing.

I noticed Slam asked where you located, but you didn't respond. Chances are he wanted to see if he knew someone in the area who could evaluate your dog. Are you open to something like that?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@IllinoisNative,
You make some very good points, others have made some excellent points as well. 

I'm sure that puffswami has really tried, and I'm sure he has been looking for answers and trying to get better results. I read some of his posts regarding this dog from a year ago, and the situation has gone from bad to worse. This must be incredibly frustrating. I really don't blame the OP if he is over it. Because what Puffswami has tried simply did not work, from neutering to trainers. Part of the problem is the approach has been wrong and the results are predictable when the approach and methods are wrong. When you keep doing things wrong and do not know any better, well the outcome is generally not stellar. The other part of the problem is thinking that once a dog is trained, it is trained for life. That is not the case, especially for difficult dogs or dogs with behavioral issues. It is simply management and learning how to handle the dog and may the dog behave properly. You can not change temperament, but you can modify or change behavior. 

You are correct that puffswami did not respond to a couple of my posts, which is fine. One being his location. I am in Virginia and would gladly and for free evaluate this dog. It would take an hour or two of my time, which I would be willing to do. The other question which did not get a response was what was done to correct the dog for barking in the car? This is an easy fix, when you know how to handle it. 

The answer here is not neutering, that rarely fixes anything behavioral. The prozac might help a little as voodoolamb described, but she gave some good insight on that. The neutered dog, doped on anti depressants might be easier to handle, but that is still not the answer. The answer is getting with a good obedience trainer who works with GSD's, Malionis and Dutch Shepherds to get a handle on this dog. There are several people that have posted on this thread, including myself that would have this dog behaving in short order. Nothing will change until the attitude changes and the dog gets in the right hands. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Slamdunc said:


> You are correct that puffswami did not respond to a couple of my posts, which is fine


I really don't want to keep posting but I will thank you and address why I did not respond to your kind offer to evaluate my GSD....

I have had my GSD for over a year and he has been evaluated by at least 5 trainers. I am not taking him to the morons at Petco but the best GSD-specialist trainers Google can send me to that aren't too far away. Two of the trainers I visited were breeders of show/working-line as well. Some have celebrity clientele on their walls, as well as the usual smorgasbord of law enforcement, military, etc. 

So I just don't know what seeing YET another trainer is going to do. I am sure you are a good trainer (at least based on every other dog-trainer telling me they were also a good trainer (I basically paid one trainer $50 to tell me that he was good trainer....nice work if you can get it, huh?).


***** REMOVED BY ADMIN *****


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think the OP has already made up his mind because he doesn't respond to suggestions he has not already tried or to Slamdunc's offered help. Putting down a dog you love, is a heartbreaking thing to do and it never leaves you for the est of your life. 
OP, how much do you sincerely care for this dog? Like someone else mentioned, you sound pretty cold about him.
You could be at your wits end, but that doesn't mean the dog cannot be helped, just because you ran out of ideas. This is what I feel: you probably know that Prozac won't help but gives the dog an ultimatum and will give you the OK to put him down. But it doesn't seem fair to the dog while others have offered help for free. How about shipping him?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Nah, I don't agree that dogs are like people and can be "evil". 

"...the dog never makes a mistake. He is just a dog and he does what he does because he is a dog and he thinks like a dog. It is you that makes the mistake because you haven't trained him to do want you want him to do when you want him to do it. Or you have misjudged what he is able to do, physically or mentally. So if a mistake is made (in the team), it is you that has made it, not the dog." 
---George Attla


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

puffswami said:


> I really don't want to keep posting but I will thank you and address why I did not respond to your kind offer to evaluate my GSD....
> 
> I have had my GSD for over a year and he has been evaluated by at least 5 trainers. I am not taking him to the morons at Petco but the best GSD-specialist trainers Google can send me to that aren't too far away. Two of the trainers I visited were breeders of show/working-line as well. Some have celebrity clientele on their walls, as well as the usual smorgasbord of law enforcement, military, etc.
> 
> ...


There you go, you've got it all figured out. Especially, wth the analogies of weight loss and socioeconomic factors in GSD training. smh

Here is the reality, your dog is a SL GSD, nothing special or way to hard or aggressive to handle. The dog is not a violent hillbilly or felon, only in your mind. The dog doesn't need meds but an experienced, or decent handler who can work and handle him. A handler that doesn't know it all just yet, but is willing to learn. Please consider rehoming the dog, it will be in his and your best interest. I'm guessing you want to be or are a defense attorney. Good luck with your dog and your career.

This thread has pretty much run it's course.


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