# just had to post this.. i kno im not qualified...



## GuardianShep

just had to post this.. i kno im not qualified to pass comments, but, even with my limited knowledge with no experience of showing or conformation or trials, i honestly think this is not the correct way a dog should be stacked.

there are a hundred things that come into my mind that i want to speak out, but, im restraining myself.

i dont want any comments or a heated discussion - those who see this, just think for urself.

134th Westminster Kennel Club All Breed Dog Show
German Shepherd Stacked | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## DharmasMom

I'm no expert in stacking but is that dog _supposed_ to be down on his hock like that???


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## paulag1955

Surely that can't be right for it to be down on its hock!


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## emjworks05

This dog is on the extreme side of an American Showline. This dog walks on it's hocks Im sure. *I* do not think that they should walk on their hocks nor should they be stacked on their hocks. 

This is how a lot of Am showlines are being bred, now keep in mind not all breeders breed them to look this way. 

I say *I* because people have different opinions on how they should look.

Here is a picture of my girl at our last show, her breeder stacked her while I took the shot, you can see the difference of extreme.


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## Xeph

> This dog is on the extreme side of an American Showline. This dog walks on it's hocks Im sure.


No, she doesn't. She has too much rear for my taste, but I do personally know the bitch. She does walk clean on her feet.

And while your bitch is less extreme than Lovey, you could certainly make her look extreme just by changing her stack a bit 

I did get mad when she was stood on her hock in the group ring too. Drives me NUTS!!!


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## AgileGSD

Xeph said:


> No, she doesn't. She has too much rear for my taste, but I do personally know the bitch. She does walk clean on her feet.


 If this is the case, what do you feel causes the callous that you can easily see on the hock she isn't standing on (I would bet there is a matching one on that hock too)? Look at the picture in the largest size available and you can see a callous a couple inches or so down from her hock joint, not quite midway between the hock joint and the foot.


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## Andaka

That doesn't look like a callous to me. It looks like she was groomed with the hair brushed out and sprayed, and then the hock was grabbed there, flattening the hair in that spot.

But that being said, when I saw "Lovie" at the National, she was walking on her hocks and had trouble just walking next to her owners. She always had to break into a trot to keep her feet out of the way.


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## Whiteshepherds

emjworks05 said:


> This is how a lot of Am showlines are being bred, now keep in mind not all breeders breed them to look this way.
> 
> Here is a picture of my girl at our last show, her breeder stacked her while I took the shot, you can see the difference of extreme.


I wish more ASL owners would step up to the plate and post pictures so people can see the other side of the ASL's. It might help to dispell the myth that all show lines are extreme. Beautiful girl btw!


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## AgileGSD

Andaka said:


> That doesn't look like a callous to me. It looks like she was groomed with the hair brushed out and sprayed, and then the hock was grabbed there, flattening the hair in that spot.


 Lots of dogs are show groomed to have "poofy" hocks but it generally doesn't make them look like they have callouses. I have seen callouses on show GSDs hocks in person and it sure looks like this dog has them. Could be wrong of course, can't say for sure without touching the dog.


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## EJQ

Xeph said:


> No, she doesn't. She has too much rear for my taste, but I do personally know the bitch. She does walk clean on her feet.
> 
> And while your bitch is less extreme than Lovey, you could certainly make her look extreme just by changing her stack a bit
> 
> I did get mad when she was stood on her hock in the group ring too. Drives me NUTS!!!


Sadly I have seen many GSDs, in the show ring, that walk back on their hocks, are extremely angulated and so cow hocked that they interfere when they walk. This looks like a mistaken stack - probably not too good when you are in the ring at Westminster.


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## emjworks05

I havent seen lovie or they way she walks but by the way she is stacked, she looks like she might be a hock walker. 

Jackie, you are right I could probably stack her with her hock more on the ground but I know it would be really awkward for her to stand that way as my dog is not a hock walker, she walks clean. 

Thanks Whiteshepherds!


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## Jax's Mom

emjworks05 said:


> Here is a picture of my girl at our last show, her breeder stacked her while I took the shot, you can see the difference of extreme.


:thumbup:


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## codmaster

Looks like her front paws are not even either, and her right leg is way too far forward - very poor stack! Wonder if the handler stacked her or just let her walk into a stack?


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## Xeph

> Jackie, you are right I could probably stack her with her hock more on the ground but I know it would be really awkward for her to stand that way as my dog is not a hock walker, she walks clean.


I didn't mean more extreme by hock on the ground  Maybe Lovey has changed a bit since I last saw her...though when I did see her last she walked clean

As for callouses, I can't speak to those. Strauss actually has a couple tiny ones, and he doesn't walk on his hocks. It's normal wear and tear from standing up and sitting down and the like. I was surprised to see them myself.


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## AgileGSD

Xeph said:


> As for callouses, I can't speak to those. Strauss actually has a couple tiny ones, and he doesn't walk on his hocks. It's normal wear and tear from standing up and sitting down and the like. I was surprised to see them myself.


 I'd be surprised if Strauss has callouses that are noticeable in stacked photos. Small ones, like some dogs get on their elbows are one thing. Callouses that look like the dog is growing another hock joint are another. 

It's not just show GSDs who have the excessive rear leg length and exaggeration angulation though. The GSD stack and other traits (such as long bodies) make it more noticeable but it has become fashionable in lots of breeds. Notice how far back from the body the rear legs are able to be placed, it's the look of the modern show dog in many breeds:


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## Samba

The stacking has been done that way. At the National I was able to attend, the judge Dave R. was very clear in his instructions to the handlers not to stack their dogs like that.
It is "overstacking" and does not have to be done. This dog is not real extreme. It may have been done by the handler to give the impression of topline that the dog does not naturally carry.

I am not sure we can see a callous. My WGWL male's hocks look like that. 

Extremity is relative, of course. The dog in the link is not really extreme to me. I really doubt that it walks on its hocks.


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## Samba

Tony does not carry a lot of topline. We could pull his back leg forward and have him stand on his hock. This would cause more slope in the topline and the appearance of more bend of stifle in the extended back leg. It wouldn't make him walk on his hocks or have extremity. It would be incorrect stacking that distorts the dog.


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## Xeph

> It's not just show GSDs who have the excessive rear leg length and exaggeration angulation though.


THANK YOU!!! I try to bring this up to "non fanciers", and they just don't get it. All they see is that the dogs are standing four square, not how incredibly long their upper thighs are too. Bah!


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## krisk

I can't comment on her hock walking (never seen her walking around). I personally like a moderate amount of rear (not extreme), as those who know me can atest. That is my prefernce. 

There is no way to defend a dog that can't walk properly (IMO)

Just have to add Jessica, your girl remind me of my old girl (for give the lack of coat and show pics are all that I have on the new computer)









krisk
BIM.Edale's Wild Thyme OFA,OVC (Ch pt'd)
Sunflower's Immortal of Dilquin OFA
Rainbowbridge
MultiGroupWinner.BPIS.Ch.Sunflower's Kissin Kris CD,TC,HIC,OFA
Sunflower's Aztec Asyak CD,TC
Roll of The Dice of Sunflower HIC,TC (Ch pt'd long coat)


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## Samba

Ah, krisk, you have an Edale's bitch! Edale's Eddison is my buddy. Really like that boy!


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## krisk

I love Eddie, was sorry to see him make the move down there. Known him since he was a pup and he is just a doll. Kenna is a cousin to Eddie (Kenna's mother is a younger sister to Eddie's mother).

krisk


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## GuardianShep

emjworks05 said:


>


:thumbup: WOW..simply, a big WOW.. she IS BEAUTIFUL..GORGEOUS.. man, what a beauty to watch them stand proud .. great pic.. thanks for sharing.. 

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Xeph said:


> No, she doesn't. She has too much rear for my taste, but I do personally know the bitch. She does walk clean on her feet.
> 
> I did get mad when she was stood on her hock in the group ring too. Drives me NUTS!!!


if you know Lovie personally, then you should tell her owner when you see him next time.. its never late to change ones outlook. if Lovie has a handler, he should be educated too.. 

as i said, im no one to pass a judgement, but, with my limited knowledge, this is not the way it should be done...

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EJQ said:


> ......... This looks like a mistaken stack - probably not too good when you are in the ring at Westminster.


Yes..thats what im stressing..
Westminister being the most famous besides Crufts, this should, i repeat, this should NEVER be allowed in westminister..

In my personal opinion, i repeat, MY PERSONAL opinion, a good judge will come to the show, introduce himself and the participant dogs and their handlers, and then before proceeding to the actual procedures of a show, will clearly state how the dog should be stacked..he should do that in one show and the next and the next.. it should be part of his routine.. (some examiners come into the hall and clearly state the rules of the examination even though the student is expected to know those BEFORE he comes to the exam).... i know that the handlers are expected to know how to stack BEFORE they even come to the show.. but, the pic i posted at the start of this thred clearly shows that, even in westminister, there are some handlers who do not know how to.. they must be educated. else, they will RUIN the show business


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Samba said:


> The stacking has been done that way. At the National I was able to attend, the judge Dave R. was very clear in his instructions to the handlers not to stack their dogs like that.
> It is "overstacking" and does not have to be done.


i appreciate the judge's effort.
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i know that these dogs may be perfect when in four square.. i know that..
but, then why are they made to do these extreme feats??

here s another thread i had a chance to read..
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...17-does-anyone-seriously-find-attractive.html


i am not a 'show' person, but,ill quote an expirience i had recently.... after i lost my second gsd, i started searching for nother. then i met the most reputable show man in our district.he s very famous and reputed.. nywys, i went to his kennel (expecting to talk to him because he s a reputed breeder) .. i saw his sires and dams, and there ended my enthusiasm.because his champion sire(sire and dam are champions, and both are in the pedigree database. i could give you the name, but, i would not.hthis champion sire is so famous in our state that,googling his name will bring us to the exact photo) was roach backed. i saw the dog playing, and the breeder (whose name ill not quote) let me play with him.. he was quite friendly - 3yrs age.. but, heavily roach backed. i felt pity for him coz he had difficulty in running with me (his spine would not flex enough to allow him to do a cheetah style run) .. plus, he got tired very fast - panting VERY VERY HARD.. i saw a red light..
the breeder proceeded to show me a stacked stance.. i was crying by then.. the dog was CLEEARLY in pain.. 
i left him with the breeder.. before leaving, i told the breeder, if someone asks me bout him, ill NEVER give his number.

again, im not saying that all breeders are like this..
but, those who are, should be educated.. else, the wonderful breed will be LOST..
breed only healthy dogs who are worthy to pass their genes to the next generation. breeding roach backed, breeding genetically unhealthy, all can lead to deterioration of the breed.

IF YOU LOVE THE BREED, please act. If you know someone who breeds for FUN/ <MONEY, educate them...
because, the sitatuion is worsening. to find a healthy dog, i have to search a year and half. if this goes like this, after 20 years, ill not get a healthy dog at all!!

those who have skipped this, im soory to have made this long..
and those who have read this fully, i hope that you will act


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## Xeph

> the breeder proceeded to show me a stacked stance.. i was crying by then.. the dog was CLEEARLY in pain..


I have to admit, though I do not care for roached toplines, I do doubt this is true.

And there is no way Lenny (Lovey's handler) would listen to me, a nobody, about how to stack a dog.

I ALWAYS stack my dogs on the pads of their feet, and Mirada, who definitely has more rear than EMJ's Shimmer, does gait and walk properly. I'd like her (Mirada) to have a little less rear to be honest.

I know many handlers that put the dog's hock on the floor on purpose, and it bugs me. Makes me not want to look at the dog.

Lots of the other fanciers like it. That's why it continues.

This is the most extreme stack I have of my little bitch right now:









How she looks stacked closer together in the rear:



























I could stretch her out more and many other show people would love it. I think it unbalances my dog and looks ridiculous.


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## Xeph

I do need to add, even though it's a little OT, to check out the other photos in that flickr! There are some nice ones!


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## Samba

> I love Eddie, was sorry to see him make the move down there. Known him since he was a pup and he is just a doll. Kenna is a cousin to Eddie (Kenna's mother is a younger sister to Eddie's mother).


Aha, I will be hooking up with the Eddie dog today, as we make our way to the warmer climes of Texas. I have a relative of his also, through Alvin. My pup is a bit extreme and I am hoping she firms up with more growth. She wasn't that way as a pup, darn growing up puppies!


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## Xeph

> She wasn't that way as a pup, darn growing up puppies!


No kidding! I wasn't expecting my pup to turn out as she has!


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## emjworks05

jebinelias said:


> :thumbup: WOW..simply, a big WOW.. she IS BEAUTIFUL..GORGEOUS.. man, what a beauty to watch them stand proud .. great pic.. thanks for sharing..



Thank you!


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## krisk

Well, you will have to give Eddie an extra pat for me. Anytime you get pictures of him I would love to see. 

And the puppy change can surprise everyone sometimes. For Connor it wasn't structure, so much as his ability to coordinate his movement for a time. He did get it all together eventually. Kenna was this stout, stocky pup ... uhm, then she grew up (up being the operative word). Her breeder saw her at 9 months and the first words out of her mouth were "oh my god where did all that leg come from" (her dad) followed by "Kenna, stop growing". Kenna stands 25.5 inches (the tallest female I have ever owned) 

Sorry for hijacking the post.
krisk


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## codmaster

The best stacks that I have seen in the ring are natural ones where the handler simply walks the dog into a stack! It may not be perfect but the dog is balanced and looks a lot better.


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## warpwr

_The achievements of Covy-Tucker Hill are represented by one symbolic dog, Ch. Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan OFA H/E ROM. Bred by CTH, "Hatter" was owned by Jane Firestone and Shirley Braunstein and handled by James Moses. He is the only German Shepherd to win Best in Show in the history of the Westminster Kennel Club show held annually at Madison Square Gardens. Seventeen years later, that record still stands. "Hatter" is the winningest male German Shepherd Dog in dog show history._


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## GuardianShep

warpwr said:


> _The achievements of Covy-Tucker Hill are represented by one symbolic dog, Ch. Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan OFA H/E ROM. Bred by CTH, "Hatter" was owned by Jane Firestone and Shirley Braunstein and handled by James Moses. He is the only German Shepherd to win Best in Show in the history of the Westminster Kennel Club show held annually at Madison Square Gardens. Seventeen years later, that record still stands. "Hatter" is the winningest male German Shepherd Dog in dog show history._


yeah..the only one gsd in history... VERY poor average.


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## Xeph

> yeah..the only one gsd in history... VERY poor average.


To be fair, only THREE other herding breeds have won a BIS at Westminster. And technically speaking, Hatter is the ONLY herding breed to have won BIS at Westminster, as the Rough Collie and Old English Sheepdog were listed in the working group!

An Old English Sheepdog in 1914 (Ch Slumber), a Rough Collie in 1929 (Laund Loyalty of Bellhaven) and an Old English Sheepdog in 1975 (Ch Sir Lancelot of Barvan). The herding group is NOT popular for Westminster wins. The Terrier group has the most BIS wins from this show.

The source I used is the Westminster Kennel Club Website
2011 Dog Show - News, Events, Finalists, Dog Breeds & Awards - WestminsterKennelClub.org


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## codmaster

Covy's had a few other good show dogs as well.

Including Angelique who was picked as a Select bitch 7 times!


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## aggirl099

jebinelias said:


> yeah..the only one gsd in history... VERY poor average.


my dog gunnar who is a german shepherd is a covey tucker hill pup his dad is sheriff who i think i a relative to hatter


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## codmaster

jebinelias said:


> just had to post this.. i kno im not qualified to pass comments, but, even with my limited knowledge with no experience of showing or conformation or trials, i honestly think this is not the correct way a dog should be stacked.
> 
> there are a hundred things that come into my mind that i want to speak out, but, im restraining myself.
> 
> i dont want any comments or a heated discussion - those who see this, just think for urself.
> 
> 134th Westminster Kennel Club All Breed Dog Show
> German Shepherd Stacked | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


 
So, in your admittedly unqualified opinion, what is wrong with the stack and how would you fix it?


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## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> So, in your admittedly unqualified opinion, what is wrong with the stack and how would you fix it?


Come on. Even if you are not qualified you can see that the stack is not flattering the dog. You don't have to be able to come up with something to fix it, you just know it's wrong.


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## Mrs.K

> I have to admit, though I do not care for roached toplines, I do doubt this is true.


I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. Could have been CES... just saying.


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## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> Come on. Even if you are not qualified you can see that the stack is not flattering the dog. You don't have to be able to come up with something to fix it, you just know it's wrong.


Nope, looks like a typical show stack to me. So maybe someone can enlighten me with what is wrong with the stack itself? Not the dog, but the stack itself.

Are you saying for example the leg is too far back or the front paws are not level or the other back leg is not in line with the body or ??????????.

What would you do to make the stack "flatter" the dog? For example, would moving the leg somewhere else show off the rear angulation better or maybe cover up a weak or too long a back or maybe moving the front paws would show up a good shoulder? 

I am very curious as to why a lot of folks jumped on this as a really bad stack and thus criticised the supposedly professional handler who pased the dog.

What did the pro do wrong that so many could correct?


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## codmaster

warpwr said:


> _The achievements of Covy-Tucker Hill are represented by one symbolic dog, Ch. Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan OFA H/E ROM. Bred by CTH, "Hatter" was owned by Jane Firestone and Shirley Braunstein and handled by James Moses. He is the only German Shepherd to win Best in Show in the history of the Westminster Kennel Club show held annually at Madison Square Gardens. Seventeen years later, that record still stands. "Hatter" is the winningest male German Shepherd Dog in dog show history._


That is a remarkable record for him but actually, I think that Covy Tucker is probably better known for the many great female GSD's that they have shown over the years. I.E. Angelique went 7 times Select - a truly remarkable show achievment considering her age and the number of different judges who put her Select.


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## Mrs.K

The stack is extreme. First off, I don't like it when the dog is on the hook (that is my personal opinion) and to me it looks just wrong. The handler should set the foot on the paw. Secondly, it should be closer together. (personal opinion). It's just too extreme for my taste. But I'm not a judge, so it really doesn't matter, I guess. Just wouldn't want a pup out of any kind of breeding like that.


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## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> That is a remarkable record for him but actually, I think that Covy Tucker is probably better known for the many great female GSD's that they have shown over the years. I.E. Angelique went 7 times Select - a truly remarkable show achievment considering her age and the number of different judges who put her Select.


Now Covy Tuckers stack is MUCH MUCH better. That's a stack I like, nowhere near as extreme as the dog in the first post.


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## Xeph

Covy Tucker is the kennel name (Covy Tucker Hill actually), the dog's name is Hatter (just for reference)


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## Mrs.K

Thanks


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