# Berlin's Parents



## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

V Ultri vom Köriser See
The dam, Ultri

V Tony von der Burg Haidstein
The sire, Tony

Just wondering what everyone thinks? I have zero idea how to read a pedigree. I wonder who Berlin will look like!


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm not very well versed on lines, but I have heard of Zamp Von Thermodos. I believe he was Tony's sire. Zamp is a very nice dog!

It's funny both of Berlin's parents are stock coats? That was the same with my Bear, both his parents were stock coats.

I'll leave the expert opinions to those more knowledgeable.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gsdlover91 said:


> V Ultri vom Köriser See
> The dam, Ultri
> 
> V Tony von der Burg Haidstein
> ...


It doesn't matter because they are both very nice looking dogs


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Zamp is very nice! And yes, he is Tony's sire. The breeder had a link to a page with information on him. Such a beauty!  

Yep, the breeder has only stock coats. But many of her dogs, I believe, carry the recessive gene for LC. Thats good though, because it means they aren't breeding specifically for longcoats, they just happen to pop up every so often.

Haha I swear, Berlin and Bear are twins!  



Bear GSD said:


> I'm not very well versed on lines, but I have heard of Zamp Von Thermodos. I believe he was Tony's sire. Zamp is a very nice dog!
> 
> It's funny both of Berlin's parents are stock coats? That was the same with my Bear, both his parents were stock coats.
> 
> I'll leave the expert opinions to those more knowledgeable.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

llombardo said:


> It doesn't matter because they are both very nice looking dogs


Yes they are! I'm happy my little guy has such beautiful parents. They both have such a deep red coloring, I love it! :wub:


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Okay, pedigree people, help me out!

Valco Berlin vom Hokschhaus

Berlin's Pedigree^

His grand sire (?) Zamp, died today three years ago, unknown why he died. Ive read some speculations of cancer and heart disease? Anyways, 8 years old is YOUNG, and ive been freaking out worrying if something like cancer or heart disease can be passed on through generations? I know Berlin is two generations younger, so the chances are surely reduced...But what do you think? Zamp passed a lot of traits down into his progeny and Tony passed those right on to Berlin....so I know Berlin has alot of Zamp's traits! Any input..? 


Also - people who can read a pedigree good, what is good in his pedigree, I know Zamp and Quantum and Ursus...but what else.? What types of traits are in the dogs in this pedigree? All I can tell from looking at a pedigree is how good the dogs look, and what titles they have. So i cant read too much into it. :help:


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Not helping but our dogs are sort of related, lol... He has quantum in his pedigree too. Zephyr's flying Ollie vom Grunenfeld

I know these things are partially related to genetics but how you care for him now also can have a positive effect... Let me look up an interesting thread for you...

Totally buying this book and I've already been practicing a lot of what he's been saying, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/favorite-links-books-videos/226874-pukkas-promise.html


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Many WGSL dogs carry the LC recessive. This is why out of most WGSL breedings, you will have a few LC popping up even with stock coated parents. 

Zamp was an excellent producer and prolific producer in his time. More on Zamp:THE LEGEND - ZAMP
Dam is a Quenn daughter - Quenn is also an excellent producer and lovely dog. 10 years old now and in excellent health - so don't focus on one dog in the pedigree and worry as you have other dogs in the lineage that are known for longevity. 

If I were you, I would contact Michelle as she owns/owned the sire and dam. She will be able to tell you individual traits she has noticed and why she conducted this particular breeding. I believe Robin and Carlos also know the sire and perhaps the dam so they can give you further first hand insight.

I wouldn't worry needlessly at this point about cancer or heart disease. You already have the pup - lots of dogs die of these type of issues in older age - unless you know for sure the cause of the dog's death AND that he specifically passed it onto progeny (because it is one thing to be afflicted with a condition - it is entirely different thing to pass it on reliably to progeny), there is no reason to worry excessively about a grandsire.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Carriesue said:


> Not helping but our dogs are sort of related, lol... He has quantum in his pedigree too.


Cool! So that makes them like cousins or something? Right?  Thanks, Ill check that book out, looks interesting!



qbchottu said:


> Many WGSL dogs carry the LC recessive. This is why out of most WGSL breedings, you will have a few LC popping up even with stock coated parents.
> 
> Zamp was an excellent producer and prolific producer in his time. More on Zamp:THE LEGEND - ZAMP
> Dam is a Quenn daughter - Quenn is also an excellent producer and lovely dog. 10 years old now and in excellent health - so don't focus on one dog in the pedigree and worry as you have other dogs in the lineage that are known for longevity.
> ...


Thanks for your reply. I have read a ton about Zamp  I already know why Michelle did this breeding, I was just curious as to what kind of traits the other dogs have in his pedigree. I only know the traits from Ultri, Tony, and Zamp. I was just curious what the other dogs offered as well. Thanks for the info about Quenn! Didnt know a thing about him, but good to know he is healthy. I dont know doggie genetics or anything, so not sure how prominent something can be in lines, and how often it is passed down. As far as I know, Tony is still healthy, but hes only four years old I believe. Quantum (Zamps sire) also lived to be ten I believe, so I guess I am reading too much into it! 

How do you figure out the health of the dogs in pedigrees? 

Thanks again qbchottu.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

What do you mean by health of the dogs? The hip/elbow scores are on the pedigree - you can look them up on SV site or OFA if you are so inclined. As DM testing becomes more popular, you might see that listed as well (but probably not for European dogs as DM testing is not the fad there as it is in the States). Most of the big stud dogs will be mourned when they pass so you can find tribute sites or notices posted when they passed - gives you an idea of their age. For specifics and details, you must contact the owner or breeder and ask for certain. Keep in mind that unless they know you or have some professional working relationship with you - most people will not be so inclined to spill details on their dog to a stranger


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> What do you health of the dogs? The hip/elbow scores are on the pedigree - you can look them up on SV site or OFA if you are so inclined. Most of the big stud dogs will be mourned when they pass so you can find tribute sites or notices posted when they passed - gives you an idea of their age. For specifics and details, you must contact the owner or breeder and ask for certain. Keep in mind that unless they know you or have some professional working relationship with you - most people will not be so inclined to spill details on their dog to a stranger


Ah well nevermind, I meant like what they passed away from, how old they lived to be etc. Some of it is in the comments on the pedigree, but many of the females have no info on them! As far as I know, all hips/elbows are good within his pedigree, not worried about that. Just was curious if any health issues arised. But i guess in Germany, they wouldnt be breeding them if they had any known health issues? Thanks again

By DM being a fad here and not in Germany, do you mean many of the dogs there don't carry the genes for DM? Or they just arent worried about it? Stuff like DM is what I was interested in, like if any dogs acquired that in old age, or anything else..


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Money clouds judgement - many dogs that should not be bred...are. I know of a very nice working male that is being bred left and right, but would never pass a breed survey because he is missing too many teeth. Another one with bad elbows that is being bred as well and the elbow excused as the result of an injury. You will never truly find out the truth about a popular dog unless you are very closely involved with that particular world (breeding to the dog, buying dogs out of the lineage, associated w/the breeder) - that's just the way it is. When lots of money, prestige, and clout are on the line...people are less likely to reveal the whole truth 



> But i guess in Germany, they wouldnt be breeding them if they had any known health issues?


Guess again! This type of nonsense goes on all around the world. Just because it is Germany does not make them all legitimate 

You will probably never find out why or how these dogs died - especially females. Breeding females are sadly not as glamorous or flashy like the big stud males - most of the time once they are done breeding, they are retired or sold off never to be heard from again so you will probably not find too much info on females unless it is an exceptionally strong producer, had excellent bitework, or VA'd in a particularly memorable show for examples.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Money clouds judgement - many dogs that should not be bred...are. I know of a very nice working male that is being bred left and right, but would never pass a breed survey because he is missing too many teeth. Another one with bad elbows that is being bred as well and the elbow excused as the result of an injury. You will never truly find out the truth about a popular dog unless you are very closely involved with that particular world (breeding to the dog, buying dogs out of the lineage, associated w/the breeder) - that's just the way it is. When lots of money, prestige, and clout are on the line...people are less likely to reveal the whole truth
> 
> 
> Guess again! This type of nonsense goes on all around the world. Just because it is Germany does not make them all legitimate
> ...


I have noticed that, almost none of the females in his pedigree have any comments or anything...noticed the big flashy studs get a lot of attention! How unfair, lol. Ugh, hate that money can buy a dog into being a popular stud, or buy that dog its titles. Not right at all, but Im sure it happens in all breeds of dogs as well. Unfortunate. I cant believe a dog with bad elbows is being bred? Ugh breeders should be worried about reducing bad hips/elbows within the breed, not passing it on! 

So, if the dog has a BREED SURVEY, are the chances higher that the dog really is a good breeding prospect?  Tony has one, I just cant read it! Haha! 

One last question, does anything BAD in particular stand out in Berlins pedigree, that you can see? 

Thanks again, your replies have been very informative.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

> By DM being a fad here and not in Germany, do you mean many of the dogs there don't carry the genes for DM? Or they just arent worried about it? Stuff like DM is what I was interested in, like if any dogs acquired that in old age, or anything else.


Americans are obsessed with guarantees, and tests and contracts. Most other countries don't have the kind of guarantee or hip/elbow replacements etc. They do hip/elbow testing, but most people do not test for DM. I think Europeans are more likely to understand that you are purchasing a live animal and life has no guarantees. Also the criteria for breeding under the SV guidelines are a lot more stringent than if you want to register a litter with AKC so there is added top down control from a breed board. People do not offer the type of contracts and guarantees you see here - I think the good ones will offer you reimbursements or replacements if somethings goes awry, but many times: you bought what you bought. 

Also keep in mind that DM is a controversial test - the only sure way to prove a dog has DM is to do an autopsy. The DM test offers some new information that can be of help when determining matings or assessing risk - but it is NOT a perfect test with 100% reliability.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

> So, if the dog has a BREED SURVEY, are the chances higher that the dog really is a good breeding prospect?  Tony has one, I just cant read it! Haha!
> 
> One last question, does anything BAD in particular stand out in Berlins pedigree, that you can see?


Breed survey means:
SV Breed Survey | Fred Lanting
United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Survey Regulations
A set of pre-requisites that the dog must fulfill is order to be considered "breed surveyed". For dogs bred under the SV standard, most will have breed surveys done. I like to have breeding dogs breed surveyed because it is a comprehensive overview on strong requirements for breeding dogs. 

No nothing bad. He's a nice WGSL breeding with popular bloodlines in his pedigree. For particular health issues or problems, look to other progeny out of Tony and the dam - how are they? healthy? good temperament? hips/elbows etc. You roll the dice each time and hopefully they work out - you have odds on your side as you went with a good breeder and proven lines. He is still a living being and things can go wrong, but I would rather you spend the time developing and enjoying him as there is little we can do to change the future


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Americans are obsessed with guarantees, and tests and contracts. Most other countries don't have the kind of guarantee or hip/elbow replacements etc. They do hip/elbow testing, but most people do not test for DM. *I think Europeans are more likely to understand that you are purchasing a live animal and life has no guarantees. *Also the criteria for breeding under the SV guidelines are a lot more stringent than if you want to register a litter with AKC so there is added top down control from a breed board. People do not offer the type of contracts and guarantees you see here - I think the good ones will offer you reimbursements or replacements if somethings goes awry, but many times: you bought what you bought.
> 
> Also keep in mind that DM is a controversial test - the only sure way to prove a dog has DM is to do an autopsy. The DM test offers some new information that can be of help when determining matings or assessing risk - but it is NOT a perfect test with 100% reliability.





qbchottu said:


> Breed survey means:
> SV Breed Survey | Fred Lanting
> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Survey Regulations
> A set of pre-requisites that the dog must fulfill is order to be considered "breed surveyed". For dogs bred under the SV standard, most will have breed surveys done. I like to have breeding dogs breed surveyed because it is a comprehensive overview on strong requirements for breeding dogs.
> ...


Hmm interesting, alot of breeders ive come across that test for DM, claim their dog is DM free, and make it seem like it wont come up ever in their progeny, period. Didnt know it was not 100% reliable, good to know! I never worried about that too much when looking for a puppy.. and that bolded statement, how true. I do not expect to have a perfect dog, by any means. I know that ANYTHING can happen, its life (I have also witnessed this first hand with my last puppy..) She came from excellent lines as well, but ended up having a rare neurological condition and had to be put down at 4 months old (it was by unfortunate chance as well, not genetic) So really, you are correct, it is like rolling dice. 

And thanks, I dont think progeny from Ultri and Tony have had any problems, I do know one from her first litter is actually a police k-9. But Michelle has only recently started breeding (within the last few years..?) so most of the progeny are still young. Nothing crazy sticks out though, she really is concerned with preserving the breed and breeding healthy dogs, so I know if anything ever did pop up she wouldnt breed that dog anymore..I know Tony has a great temperament, as does Ultri (I met them both). From what I see on her website, many people have been happy with their dogs from her, as they have a great temperament, and really can do anything (SchH, show ring, working dogs). Her dogs seem very rounded.

And I agree, I would rather spend time with him (and believe me I do!) than worrying. He is great, more than I could ever ask for so far.  Thanks again!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Found Tony's koer report on Michelle's site. Lemme take a crack at translating for you 

Korklasse Report:

Mittelgroß, mittelkräftig, auffallend typvoll, mit gutem Kopf und hohem Widerrist und bei guter Lage etwas kurze Kruppe. Sehr gute Winkelungen, gute Brustverhältnisse, gerade Front. Vorne gerade, hinten etwas engtretend zeigt er flüssige Gänge mit guter Schrittweite. Wesen sicher, TSB ausgeprägt, läßt ab.
V. Typvoller Rüde der mittleren Größe mit sehr gutem Ausdruck und Pigment.
VI. Besonders geeignet für die Verbesserung des Größenfaktors und der typvollen Gesamterscheinung.

Medium size, medium strong, of striking type, with nice head, and high withers, good position, but somewhat short croup. Very good angulation, good chest proportions, straight in the front. Front straight, rear moves somewhat narrow, he shows a fluid gait with good length of stride. Nerves are strong, TSB pronounced, lets out. 

Typey male of medium size with very good expression and pigment. 
Especially recommended for the betterment of standard size, and of general overall type.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Found Tony's koer report on Michelle's site. Lemme take a crack at translating for you
> 
> Korklasse Report:
> 
> ...



Thank you!! Haha, been dying to know what it said. What is TSB?? What do they mean by very good expression?... I am happy that it says the nerves are strong. That is something I was curious about - what kind of 'nerves' berlin would have (i know environment plays into that as well)

And what does "typey male" mean?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

TSB is Triebveranlung, Selbstsicherheit und Belastbarkeit
Instinctive behavior aka of the GSD temperament, self confident, and ability to cope with stress.
Pronounced is given to a dog that shows strong willingness to work, clear instinctive behavior, determination in its performance; appears self-confident, pays undivided attention and is capable of coping with a severe amount of stress.

Good expression is a dog with good expression in the face - pleasing and harmonious to the eye and to the standard. Expressive dogs exude warmth, intelligence, curiosity, regal nature, strong substance. 

A "typey" dog is very close to standard and is "of the type" that the judge/current show ring favors. A dog of good type has good measurements, good overall closeness to the SV standard in conformation, and is recommended to improve the overall structure and "to the standard" type of the progeny.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> TSB is Triebveranlung, Selbstsicherheit und Belastbarkeit
> Instinctive behavior aka of the GSD temperament, self confident, and ability to cope with stress.
> Pronounced is given to a dog that shows strong willingness to work, clear instinctive behavior, determination in its performance; appears self-confident, pays undivided attention and is capable of coping with a severe amount of stress.
> 
> ...


Oh, thanks for explaining that! Makes sense now. Man, all this stuff that goes into these show dogs, so confusing!! And to top it off, its in German! Haha, but glad to know that Tony has good nerves and a good expression and what not...Berlin definitely got the 'good expression' from him. And good to know the TSB for Tony is good! I care more about the temperament than the looks anyways. You have been so helpful, thank you again.


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## saleem (Oct 25, 2013)

Gucci Ze Zevlova Dvora
what do you think of my 10 month old boy? He shares bloodlines from Zamp and Flipp von Arlett . 
He is my first WGSL GSD and i will be taking him to shows after he is trained at 1 year old.


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