# Can he be placed?



## Chevalrouge (Mar 13, 2014)

Unhappy Brutus Buckeye 

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Hi. I just joined yesterday. Unfortunately we have a problem with our beloved Brutus Buckeye. He badly bit a child who was playing with our two granddaughters in our house. Everything worked out fine with the child, her mom and her grandparents. One attitude is that he needs to be put down. Another (mine) is that surely there is a place for him with someone else in the right environment. Help.


Thanks for the responses. Here is more background. Brutus had been a problem at his prior residence as he had nipped at a couple of kids (always around the granddaughters) so I guess he was showing his protectiveness. We now have him at our house 95 percent of the time and we just moved to be close to the grandkids. The child he bit a few days ago was new to him. There was a puncture of the forearm, a gash in the calf and a bite in the back that showed all four canine teeth in action. Fortunately he released, probably when I intervened. He is now four and we got him when he was two. He had training at about one year old but I don't know what kind.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

oh boy. IMO, that is not a bite, that is an attack. Bite marks in three different areas of the body? On a child? How old is the child?

No, he can not be placed. You can not pass off a problem dog on to someone else, especially with a history like that. Either keep him isolated away from children and up his obedience dramatically with a good trainer. Or euthanize him.


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree, that sounds more like an attack and not a bite. Since there is a prior history of him being aggressive with kids, I wonder why he was allowed around children now. Especially children he doesn't know.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Agreed with the above. Where are you located?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

This dog had a history of biting a child before you had him. Yet you allow him to be near children again?

Would you want to pass him down the line to do it again? You have 2 choices here: euthanize him, which I'm hoping you don't want to do or CRATE HIM when you have children around.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog is wired wrong. 

Unless you are willing and able to properly crate or kennel him, and I mean LOCK so children CANNOT get to him. Then, do the kind thing and take him to the vet and have him euthanized. 

No other child should ever be subjected to an attack by this dog. 

I am sorry, but no rescue will work with such a dog. And no shelter will do anything with him but euthanize him. It is far kinder to go and be with him that to throw him into a kennel where he will be dragged along by strangers to the room and have it done. 

I think it would be wrong to rehome this dog to anyone. While you may be totally clear and open with his history and why you are rehoming him, those people may not be. And then another child is attacked. This is very bad for the breed and dog owners everywhere.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Bad scene, i am sorry you are going through this, Selzer is correct rescues will not take him and shelters will destroy him once they know all the info. To rehome him would not be fair to anyone.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

Everything mentioned above is correct. PTS or absolutely no contact with children. At what point are you legally responsible for the actions of your dog? With a knowledge of prior attacks... That's negligent at best. If it were my kid, you'd be paying the med bills and then some and on top of that I'd be seeking criminal charges if possible in that state.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In this case, pretty much agree with the others and I'm usually about giving the dog the benefit of the doubt. 

if you decide to euth due to the bite most states have a waiting period, for ensuring there is no possibility of rabies transmission and you'll need to keep him locked away from children, securely, at all times.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> I am sorry, but no rescue will work with such a dog. And no shelter will do anything with him but euthanize him.


I agree with one important caveat: no _responsible_ rescue or shelter will take this dog. Not with that bite history.

You may, if you look long enough and are willing to pay generously enough, find a less responsible rescue and/or "no-kill sanctuary" that is willing to take the dog.

I would be very, very careful about entrusting any dog to such an organization. While it's tempting to imagine that they offer a happy solution to your dilemma, the great majority of groups willing to take dogs with this type of bite history are clueless, delusional, and/or exploitative, and the fate that ultimately awaits animals in their care is far worse than the merciful end of a needle.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

less than ethical 'rescues' will take dogs with a bite history and use them as bait dogs for pitbull training...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am curious as to why the parents of the bitten child aren't screaming bloody murder and having the dog quarantined through animal control. What is the story/excuse for this dog's behavior? Was he sleeping and the kid fell on him? Was the kid hitting the grandchildren and screaming?

Bites on three locations and only stopping because you were able to come in and stop him, is really, really serious. Knowing of any extenuating circumstances, may be helpful in deciding whether this dog is safe to be around you and your wife. 

I mean, some dogs, and it isn't common, but they have something called Rage Syndrome. Not sure if such a dog would have been able to snap out of it when you pulled him off. But in that case, the dog needs to be liberated from its demons. If the kid tried to ride the dog like a pony, then you don't need to worry so much about you and your wife.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Depending on the state if the dog is provably current on rabies they can do in home quarantine.

Had a friend deal with that when her dog was bit by a rabid raccoon last summer but he was current on his vaccines. Same thing when I fostered a JRT that was a child biter too...in home quarantine, in our case 10 days, because he was current on vaccines.

If the dog is not current on rabies vaccine then, again depending on location, they may quarantine at a facility.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Check her wall, Sue, there's a message there with more information.

I really hope this is a trolling episode.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thanks. The kid was seven. Sorry, it is so sad for the owners, but the dog really needs to be humanely euthanized. That is too much damage on a child who can't possibly be seen as a threat of any sort.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

A stable dog properly, socialized dog shouldn't see a 7 y/o as a threat. 

A human who knows her dog has a bite history shouldn't let any child near the dog. 

Otto is a stable well socialized adult dog but he's still 98lbs of east german booyah. I crate him when other people's kids are here because it's just too much risk, too much worry, what if he gets jiggy with their leg? What if he growls and the child wets itself...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree with Jenn. I have a dog with a bite history. He is currently in a large kennel run in my back yard, surrounded by hot wire. He never even has contact with family members, only my husband or I. Period. If I didn't have the ability to contain him, I would have him euthanized. He is a broken dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think his problem is kids no matter how he is or isn't wired. There are plenty of homes that don't and won't ever have children in them. Some dogs just don't like them, just as some dogs don't like other dogs or cats. I wouldn't lie about what he has done. Were you present during the bite to witness what happened before hand? Has this dog ever gone after your grand kids?


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I think his problem is kids no matter how he is or isn't wired. There are plenty of homes that don't and won't ever have children in them. Some dogs just don't like them, just as some dogs don't like other dogs or cats. I wouldn't lie about what he has done. Were you present during the bite to witness what happened before hand? Has this dog ever gone after your grand kids?[/QUOte
> 
> This is what I see as wrong with the internet. Diagnosing such a serious issue as something so simple as he doesn't like kids. The biggest part of passing a dog like this on is that you can never be sure this dog won't be re-homed again without his history following him. It's to easy to say it's just a problem with kids. Ok, then what age kids, what if this escalates to older kids, then to adults. 3 bites also equate an attack to me, this dog isn't right.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How many bites should a single dog have? Every time a GSD attacks a small children 500 people know about, and remember it every time they see a GSD. This is how the breed is given such a bad name. 

It doesn't matter that some dogs just don't like kids. If you have a dog that ATTACKED one, then you need to do the right thing. An attack is not a warning snap that connected, a nip, a single bite. An attack is when a dog goes after its target, bites it more than once, and isn't stopping until someone is able to pull it free. 

If this dog gets out of the yard when the new owners are not home, and chases a child on a bike, it will KILL the child on the bike, because no one will be there to stop it. 

You cannot, with a clear conscience rehome this dog. Not to anyone, save maybe Cesar. Only because if he rehomes the dog and it KILLS someone, then he has way too much to lose to do that.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

It's nearly impossible to find a home that's not only willing to take a dog with a bite history like this, but to give this dog to someone thinking that it won't encounter a single child for the rest of its life is an ignorant hope. 

Personally, I would have this dog humanely PTS before he attacks another child and you have no choice and are drowning in lawsuit debts.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

add me to the side saying PTS.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you have only two choices in the matter, 1. to isolate him from children and hope to heck he never escapes and encounters one or 2, PTS. 

I agree with others, he's a ticking time bomb, and you could lose everything you own and then some, if ever gets his teeth on another person, whether it's a child or adult.

This dog should not be placed and no reputable rescue will touch him with a ten foot pole. 

I'm sorry this happened


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I wonder if the OP is for real. There is no response from the OP after the initial post, which seems weird in a serious matter like this one.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is not weird. He came here hoping to hear something that we can't give him. It is completely and utterly sad. I hope that the op reads everything, and thinks about it, and if he keeps the dog, it hits home how careful he has to be. And, that he understands completely what it means to rehome this dog to anyone.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I had a dog(non GSD) that attacked and did damage to a child comparable to the OP's dog. The child in question teased the dog consistently any time she could, it was a group of kids really. One day they were by the fence doing their usual taunting and the dog got out and got her, my son was a little younger then this group of kids at the time. I took that child to her house and explained what happened and what was happening all along. The parents did not report it nor did they hold me accountable. I never seen that group of kids again. My point is that we don't know what kids in question did to the dog. Maybe they did nothing but I'm leaning toward it was something . I am not going to suggest putting a dog to sleep without a lot more info. The bigger problem with the internet is people that jump right past everything and go right to ending the dogs life. The parents are not pursuing it for a reason. My dog never bit another child again and lived happily with my son. We don't know what led to the attack, did the dog have a bone , were the kids teasing him,etc. there are a lot of scenarios and we just don't know. Not many people asked additional questions before they said PTS and that is wrong. Should the dog have bitten , we would all like to say no, but we don't know the circumstances at all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The problem with the internet is that a newbie to this site isn't going to know that most that have responded to this thread are NOT generally saying PTS quickly. Most of us generally say, find a trainer, manage the dog, use a muzzle, get a behaviorialist, get him a check up at the vet. 

Sometimes dogs cannot be trusted in the human world. It happens. There is really no other place for these domesticated creatures. You cannot put them out as a feral dog. They are not feral. They cannot be trusted with humans. And another attack by this dog should land the OP in prison. Could in some states. 

We are a dog-loving, GSD-crazy site of people, and the majority are saying that this dog should go to the vet and be humanely euthanized, certainly not rehomed. Not a one of us who is saying this doesn't understand how hard that will be to do.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I had a dog(non GSD) that attacked and did damage to a child comparable to the OP's dog. The child in question teased the dog consistently any time she could, it was a group of kids really. One day they were by the fence doing their usual taunting and the dog got out and got her, my son was a little younger then this group of kids at the time. I took that child to her house and explained what happened and what was happening all along. The parents did not report it nor did they hold me accountable. I never seen that group of kids again. My point is that we don't know what kids in question did to the dog. Maybe they did nothing but I'm leaning toward it was something . I am not going to suggest putting a dog to sleep without a lot more info. The bigger problem with the internet is people that jump right past everything and go right to ending the dogs life. The parents are not pursuing it for a reason. My dog never bit another child again and lived happily with my son. We don't know what led to the attack, did the dog have a bone , were the kids teasing him,etc. there are a lot of scenarios and we just don't know. Not many people asked additional questions before they said PTS and that is wrong. Should the dog have bitten , we would all like to say no, but we don't know the circumstances at all.


I wonder why you let it come that far? Why putting the dog in a position in which he would be teased? Biting children should never be justified and can be prevented through supervision of both kids and dogs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> I wonder why you let it come that far? Why putting the dog in a position in which he would be teased? Biting children should never be justified and can be prevented through supervision of both kids and dogs.


I don't feel I put my dog in that position, all I was doing and all I ever did was let the dog go out to the bathroom(they were NEVER outside without me). It was my yard, they came on private property over and over. I asked them to leave the property and leave the dogs alone multiple times. I had no clue where they lived or who their parents were until the dog bit. My best guess is that they opened the gate before I came out with the dogs, yes they were those kinds of kids. They thought it would be funny if the dogs got out. I can't supervise the whole neighborhood and I certainly would never allow my own child to act like that. I was upset that it happened and I was livid with the kids and prepared to defend my dog to the end. The dog never did that before or after, he just had enough and I didn't even consider rehoming him or putting him to sleep, it just never crossed my mind. I had 5 dogs at the time, one in my arms, two ran out and two stayed put. The other dog chased the kids away and came back when called(more like screamed at). It was a group of 5-6 kids, all on the same page and they were all up to no good. I'll give you the short version of what kind of people I lived around(another story and different kids)... two little kids(by little I mean 5 and 8ish) broke into my house(broke through the screen window) when I wasn't home because they wanted to see the dogs(which were locked up when I left, but let out by the kids), all while their mom sat on the pay phone talking to her boyfriend. Lets put it this way, I came home to cop cars, ambulances, and animal control. All my animals were running the streets and one girl was scratched up pretty bad by one of the cats that was terrified about being outside and she tried catching him. It was a nightmare. The mom of the kids got a piece of my mind and I never seen her again after that. I don't ever put my dogs in any positions that threaten their well being, EVER. Its ignorant people that don't teach their kids how to respect people, animals, or anything for that matter.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I don't feel I put my dog in that position, all I was doing and all I ever did was let the dog go out to the bathroom(they were NEVER outside without me). It was my yard, they came on private property over and over. I asked them to leave the property and leave the dogs alone multiple times. I had no clue where they lived or who their parents were until the dog bit. My best guess is that they opened the gate before I came out with the dogs, yes they were those kinds of kids. They thought it would be funny if the dogs got out. I can't supervise the whole neighborhood and I certainly would never allow my own child to act like that. I was upset that it happened and I was livid with the kids and prepared to defend my dog to the end. The dog never did that before or after, he just had enough and I didn't even consider rehoming him or putting him to sleep, it just never crossed my mind. I had 5 dogs at the time, one in my arms, two ran out and two stayed put. The other dog chased the kids away and came back when called(more like screamed at). It was a group of 5-6 kids, all on the same page and they were all up to no good. I'll give you the short version of what kind of people I lived around(another story and different kids)... two little kids(by little I mean 5 and 8ish) broke into my house(broke through the screen window) when I wasn't home because they wanted to see the dogs(which were locked up when I left, but let out by the kids), all while their mom sat on the pay phone talking to her boyfriend. Lets put it this way, I came home to cop cars, ambulances, and animal control. All my animals were running the streets and one girl was scratched up pretty bad by one of the cats that was terrified about being outside and she tried catching him. It was a nightmare. The mom of the kids got a piece of my mind and I never seen her again after that. I don't ever put my dogs in any positions that threaten their well being, EVER. Its ignorant people that don't teach their kids how to respect people, animals, or anything for that matter.


I've seen some crazy people just on walks trying to get my dog to react to them(or perhaps bite them so they can sue me?) , and I can totally see what you are saying! It's criminal and horrendous that you and your pets have to go through that.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I am not going to suggest putting a dog to sleep without a lot more info. The bigger problem with the internet is people that jump right past everything and go right to ending the dogs life. The parents are not pursuing it for a reason. My dog never bit another child again and lived happily with my son. We don't know what led to the attack, did the dog have a bone , were the kids teasing him,etc. there are a lot of scenarios and we just don't know. Not many people asked additional questions before they said PTS and that is wrong. Should the dog have bitten , we would all like to say no, but we don't know the circumstances at all.


OP is lucky the parents aren't pursuing it.

As for additional questions - the OP stated this dog has a bite history. Without reading back through the thread, I believe this is the 4th bite - and this wasn't a nip, it was a full fledged attack. A nip involves usually 1 canine, maybe some of the front teeth. This involved the 4 canines - a full bite. The dog meant business.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I don't feel I put my dog in that position, all I was doing and all I ever did was let the dog go out to the bathroom(they were NEVER outside without me). It was my yard, they came on private property over and over. I asked them to leave the property and leave the dogs alone multiple times. I had no clue where they lived or who their parents were until the dog bit. My best guess is that they opened the gate before I came out with the dogs, yes they were those kinds of kids. They thought it would be funny if the dogs got out. I can't supervise the whole neighborhood and I certainly would never allow my own child to act like that. I was upset that it happened and I was livid with the kids and prepared to defend my dog to the end. The dog never did that before or after, he just had enough and I didn't even consider rehoming him or putting him to sleep, it just never crossed my mind. I had 5 dogs at the time, one in my arms, two ran out and two stayed put. The other dog chased the kids away and came back when called(more like screamed at). It was a group of 5-6 kids, all on the same page and they were all up to no good. I'll give you the short version of what kind of people I lived around(another story and different kids)... two little kids(by little I mean 5 and 8ish) broke into my house(broke through the screen window) when I wasn't home because they wanted to see the dogs(which were locked up when I left, but let out by the kids), all while their mom sat on the pay phone talking to her boyfriend. Lets put it this way, I came home to cop cars, ambulances, and animal control. All my animals were running the streets and one girl was scratched up pretty bad by one of the cats that was terrified about being outside and she tried catching him. It was a nightmare. The mom of the kids got a piece of my mind and I never seen her again after that. I don't ever put my dogs in any positions that threaten their well being, EVER. Its ignorant people that don't teach their kids how to respect people, animals, or anything for that matter.


Understood, thanks for explaining and clearing this up.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I never say PTS, ever. But the fact that this dog bit the child in 3 separate areas makes things much more complicated. This wasn't a warning bite, not with that many bites inflicted. I'm not going to guess what's wrong with the dog, or what happened to provoke this, but it's far beyond your typical "doesn't do well with children."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs biting people who are on your property without being invited, is a little different than a seven year old kid playing with your grand daughters being attacked. It is different. But, how to 5-8 year olds break into a house. 

Ok, I guess I did my first home invasion when I was about four and went through the milk chute. Remember those. Yeah, we were brats living in the city too. 

Ohio has a provision in their law for dogs that are being teased.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blanketback said:


> I never say PTS, ever. But the fact that this dog bit the child in 3 separate areas makes things much more complicated. This wasn't a warning bite, not with that many bites inflicted. I'm not going to guess what's wrong with the dog, or what happened to provoke this, but it's far beyond your typical "doesn't do well with children."


I did say PTS. 

I did because it is IMPOSSIBLE to rehome the dog safely or responsibly. And it sounds like the owners of the dog are not willing to, or are afraid to keep and manage the dog so it NEVER comes into contact with another child. 

There are worse things than humane euthanasia. The future for this dog is terribly bleak. 

No other child or adult should be bitten by this dog. It is sad. I think you look at it as though the dog has an excruciating form of cancer that is inoperable. The dog has a sickness, and needs to be released from the pain and consequences of his sickness. It is nobody's fault. It just is. And the if your dog was in severe pain, and dying, then wouldn't you take it to the vet and relieve it's suffering?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The OP first posted in visitor messages in 'public profile', he/she was trying to figure out how to utilize this forum. But the notes left there by the OP shed more light on the situation and IMO this dog *probably* should be PTS.

Chevalrouge wrote:



> Help. We have a GSD which we took control of at age two. He now is four. At his prior residence he was a bit of a problem and snapped at people a few times. We got him calmed down and think that part of the problem was impatience. He has always barked like crazy at anything that moves outside. Six days ago he badly bit a neighbor girl, age 7, who was playing with our grandchildren in our house. He is now in quarantine and is scheduled to be put down in four days. I have been told that a good rescue center can place a dog like this with the right people who know how to handle him. I want to save him but the three other people closest to him and to me say they cannot live with the fear that he might do it again, no matter where or with whom he is. I'm torn up about it but want to respect their feelings. What is the best advice you guys can give me?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't blame you for saying PTS, or anyone else who has. I can't, because I'm not comfortable making that kind of a statement without having seen the dog - but that's my own personal view, nothing more. I can say that just finding a home without children might not be good enough, because this was a very bad incident and it might be a reflection on much more than just this scenario involving a child. The dog might have serious health issues and this is just the beginning.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

He'd probably have to go to a place like Best Friends Sanctuary in Utah who I know keeps dogs like this, try to rehab if possible or keep them there for the rest of their life (like some of M. Vick's pitties that could not be re-habbed). I don't know how or if they take owner surrenders though?

Speculative but it sounds like warning signs were being dismissed or minimized?

I was bit by a WL/Pet Line dog last summer, all four canines left marks encompassing about 2/3s of the circumference of my calf, he did only bite once though . Totally unprovoked I was just standing there talking with the owner who had him on leash.

She went into denial, 'Oh he thought he was biting the other dog', 'He didn't mean it'.

I told her point blank that her dog did mean it and she needed to get with a very good trainer immediately. My guess is she won't and he'll end up like this dog.......


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

thing is so called sanctuarys can only hold so many "dogs like this" before they are overcrowded and basically hoarding
google olympic animal sanctuary for more info on that
if i had a biting dog that attacked people i would send it to the rainbow bridge myself 
before placing it in a "sanctuary"


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

As the OP has illustrated for us, getting a dog with a bite history, is not always respected by the new owners. They hear the tale, and they are careful with the dog until they think the dog is rehabilitated. Or they do not believe that it was as bad as they said, soon "attack", becomes "bite", and bite becomes "nip."

And when that family has grandchildren on the way, or are expecting to have a baby, or need to move because of a job, and do not want to bring the dog along, they have not actually witnessed what has happened, and the retelling to the new owners, or the shelter, or the rescue is so watered down or not mentioned at all, that this dog most likely will be placed in a situation around children again. 

Just disclosing the facts, isn't enough. I read through Wickipaedia's list of dog-related deaths for 2013, and it is amazing how many of those dogs that KILLED someone actually had some pretty severe previous incidents. Severe, like this incident. 

I might be able to manage this dog at my place. If it was ok with me. I could just never go on vacation, and keep the dog kenneled or at home. I might make that choice if I were the OP. But, it would be with the idea that I will never, ever rehome the dog to anyone. Really though, dogs in our lives are here to be enjoyed, we enjoy them, and they enjoy us. This is not why we have pets, to keep them shut away, and to ensure that the dog is euthanized in the event of our death. 

If the next victim this dog manages to attack is permanently maimed, or killed, then how will the OP feel? How would any of us that have even suggested that keeping the dog and managing it so that it will never meet another child feel? I think that it is a pretty large load for anyone to carry, a dog that attacks a seven year old girl who is playing with the granddaughters.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> thing is so called sanctuarys can only hold so many "dogs like this" before they are overcrowded and basically hoarding
> google olympic animal sanctuary for more info on that
> if i had a biting dog that attacked people i would send it to the rainbow bridge myself
> before placing it in a "sanctuary"


Sad situation. The rescue I volunteer at took several of those dogs. Horrible Horrible thing. I wish they would prosecute the guy!  



> I did say PTS.
> 
> I did because it is IMPOSSIBLE to rehome the dog safely or responsibly. And it sounds like the owners of the dog are not willing to, or are afraid to keep and manage the dog ]


This selzer :thumbup: It is a kindness to the dog sometimes to PTS.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

*Best Friends* is a very well known and respected sanctuary which is why I used it's name specifically. It would be the only long shot I would even consider suggesting.....

As I've already commented several times, based on the information provided by the OP, this does sound like a case where the dog probably should (and probably will be given the notes I posted earlier, it's already scheduled!) PTS.



my boy diesel said:


> thing is so called sanctuarys can only hold so many "dogs like this" before they are overcrowded and basically hoarding
> google olympic animal sanctuary for more info on that
> if i had a biting dog that attacked people i would send it to the rainbow bridge myself
> before placing it in a "sanctuary"


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

MBD FYI.

That was on the 13th so sounds like he's scheduled to be euth'd Monday.

From the OP 'public profile' vistor message area:



> Help. We have a GSD which we took control of at age two. He now is four. At his prior residence he was a bit of a problem and snapped at people a few times. We got him calmed down and think that part of the problem was impatience. He has always barked like crazy at anything that moves outside. Six days ago he badly bit a neighbor girl, age 7, who was playing with our grandchildren in our house. *He is now in quarantine and is scheduled to be put down in four days.* I have been told that a good rescue center can place a dog like this with the right people who know how to handle him. I want to save him but the three other people closest to him and to me say they cannot live with the fear that he might do it again, no matter where or with whom he is. I'm torn up about it but want to respect their feelings. What is the best advice you guys can give me?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Sri said:


> I've seen some crazy people just on walks trying to get my dog to react to them(or perhaps bite them so they can sue me?) , and I can totally see what you are saying! It's criminal and horrendous that you and your pets have to go through that.


UGH! This happens to me all the time! My backyard is small and my front yard is very large, both are fenced in and both have locks on the gates so that no one can open them and let the dogs out or go in and play with the dogs. I had the fence built 6 feet away from the public side walk and EVERY single day there are several freaking kids taunting my dogs by running up to the fence like they are going to do something to them, throwing crap at them like sticks, rocks and plastic bottles/cans and being loud, obnoxious and screaming at them. It makes me LIVID, this is MY property and MY dogs and they can't even play outside in peace in their own freaking yard! :angryfire:

Every day I have to scream at these freaking kids, I would love to go out there and shoot them with a paintball gun! These kids are between 9-15 years old, they are bad, rude and disrespectful. One day I actually screamed at them and dropped the "F" bomb like 10 times because I was that pissed but they just keep on doing it. I am happy that my dogs still love children and people but I wouldn't blame them if they wanted to give one of them a quick bite to the butt. 

When I was younger we had a Yorkie named Gizmo, he loved my mother and my stepdad but he hated us kids because we teased him and we were kind of rough with him, he ended up biting us a couple of times and then my mom rehomed him. Because of kids like the ones in my neighborhood and because of how my siblings and I teased our Yorkie, I understand why some dogs do not like children.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You need to outwit the brats. Sorry, but what you are doing is only encouraging them. It is FUN to watch you and your dog get upset and yell obscenities at them. People who ignore them, generally become boring to children and they give up. 

They are other things you can do. But you have to be creative and have patience. 

Doing what you are doing is giving them a a thrill and a half. 



LaRen616 said:


> UGH! This happens to me all the time! My backyard is small and my front yard is very large, both are fenced in and both have locks on the gates so that no one can open them and let the dogs out or go in and play with the dogs. I had the fence built 6 feet away from the public side walk and EVERY single day there are several freaking kids taunting my dogs by running up to the fence like they are going to do something to them, throwing crap at them like sticks, rocks and plastic bottles/cans and being loud, obnoxious and screaming at them. It makes me LIVID, this is MY property and MY dogs and they can't even play outside in peace in their own freaking yard! :angryfire:
> 
> Every day I have to scream at these freaking kids, I would love to go out there and shoot them with a paintball gun! These kids are between 9-15 years old, they are bad, rude and disrespectful. One day I actually screamed at them and dropped the "F" bomb like 10 times because I was that pissed but they just keep on doing it. I am happy that my dogs still love children and people but I wouldn't blame them if they wanted to give one of them a quick bite to the butt.
> 
> When I was younger we had a Yorkie named Gizmo, he loved my mother and my stepdad but he hated us kids because we teased him and we were kind of rough with him, he ended up biting us a couple of times and then my mom rehomed him. Because of kids like the ones in my neighborhood and because of how my siblings and I teased our Yorkie, I understand why some dogs do not like children.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

selzer said:


> You need to outwit the brats. Sorry, but what you are doing is only encouraging them. It is FUN to watch you and your dog get upset and yell obscenities at them. People who ignore them, generally become boring to children and they give up.
> 
> They are other things you can do. But you have to be creative and have patience.
> 
> Doing what you are doing is giving them a a thrill and a half.


What I end up doing is bringing my dogs back inside, every time because I am not going to leave them out there so that they can get hit by whatever those brats are throwing. I can't follow them home and see where they live, one because the older kids might have a weapon on them, I also don't want to meet their parents because chances are that they aren't exactly friendly people and I live in a bad neighborhood, it's the ghetto, not a safe place but unfortunately I did not know that when I bought the house 4 years ago and moving is not an option for me at this time.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

still no OP responses. I still say troll


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

SunCzarina said:


> still no OP responses. I still say troll


Why do you think he's a troll? 

I put myself in the guy's shoes, and I might seek out a forum and when I did not hear what I was hoping to hear, I might not go back there. He doesn't know us, has nothing vested in us. He probably googled GSD rescues and came across our site by accident. I don't know why we shouldn't believe the story.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think a troll. I think a united response of euthanize the dog was not what she wanted to hear. There is nothing to discuss as it's the same opinion.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...what Jax and Sue said and I was helping OP with how to use this site, she's (he?) not a forum user it seems.

Also there may be concerns with more liability if the OP reveals too much on a public forum.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Midnite was really close to being put to sleep. He was brought to the shelter because he nipped the kids and they had a baby on the way. He also redirected on me and got my leg pretty good. He didn't have any manners and no kind of training, that was obvious. I worked with him myself for a long time and then with training. I look at him and think how sad it would have been for him to be destroyed. He adores kids and is a completely different dog. I know from experience that the same dog can be completely different in a different house . All Midnite required was time, patience, and training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

llombardo said:


> Midnite was really close to being put to sleep. He was brought to the shelter because he nipped the kids and they had a baby on the way. He also redirected on me and got my leg pretty good. He didn't have any manners and no kind of training, that was obvious. I worked with him myself for a long time and then with training. I look at him and think how sad it would have been for him to be destroyed. He adores kids and is a completely different dog. I know from experience that the same dog can be completely different in a different house . All Midnite required was time, patience, and training.


This dog, that hasn't only "nipped at children" but has attacked a little girl pretty badly, after "nipping at children" before in their possession, and then having some problems before they got the dog. 

Sure the dog may be different in another home. But you know what, most experienced dog people do not necessarily want a project that might get them sued. And how do you find the one who is in-between dogs, and has the experience and energy to take this one on? 

The dog cannot go to just anyone. I absolutely hate arguing in favor of putting a dog down. Hate it. If this dog bit one time, if it stopped attacking on its own, if the kid jumped or fell on it, maybe I would think differently. 

The people close to this dog do not want this to happen again. Wherever the dog might be. They think it will. Sometimes the unkind thing is to hold out hope for people when there really is none.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> This dog, that hasn't only "nipped at children" but has attacked a little girl pretty badly, after "nipping at children" before in their possession, and then having some problems before they got the dog.
> 
> Sure the dog may be different in another home. But you know what, most experienced dog people do not necessarily want a project that might get them sued. And how do you find the one who is in-between dogs, and has the experience and energy to take this one on?
> 
> ...


I agree with you on all points. The only thing I'm stuck on is that we don't know if the kid did jump on him of fell into while they were playing. The dog hasn't ever from what I'm reading gone after the kids in the household, but it happens when they are around. He doesn't seem to have a problem with his own, it's outside kids. My question is do the kids outside of the home know how to act around any dog? Where was the supervision? If I know my dog has had an issue with kids outside if the home I certainly would have him crated or not have kids coming and going. It's not a perfect situation by any means. I'm sure we are not hearing everything at all.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I agree with you on all points. The only thing I'm stuck on is that we don't know if the kid did jump on him of fell into while they were playing. The dog hasn't ever from what I'm reading gone after the kids in the household, but it happens when they are around. He doesn't seem to have a problem with his own, it's outside kids. My question is do the kids outside of the home know how to act around any dog? Where was the supervision? If I know my dog has had an issue with kids outside if the home I certainly would have him crated or not have kids coming and going. It's not a perfect situation by any means. I'm sure we are not hearing everything at all.



Multiple bites on several limbs and the back. Even if the kid accidentally fell on the dog or even just purposely got in the dog's area to tease him, the fact is, the dog was not issuing a warning bite. This was an outright attack. I don't see any grey area.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*It would be the only long shot I would even consider suggesting..*

false hope
they would never take a dog like this


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

llombardo said:


> I agree with you on all points. The only thing I'm stuck on is that we don't know if the kid did jump on him of fell into while they were playing. The dog hasn't ever from what I'm reading gone after the kids in the household, but it happens when they are around. He doesn't seem to have a problem with his own, it's outside kids. My question is do the kids outside of the home know how to act around any dog? Where was the supervision? If I know my dog has had an issue with kids outside if the home I certainly would have him crated or not have kids coming and going. It's not a perfect situation by any means. I'm sure we are not hearing everything at all.


It's unfortunate, but people do tend to give you the information that makes their dog not look too bad, like, "the child made a really loud noise." If the grandfather thought at all that the little girl fell on the dog and scared or injured the dog, I think he would have mentioned it. I really do. 

Putting myself in his shoes, if the child did jump on the dog or try to ride the dog, my paragraph would go something like:

We had a terrible accident a few days ago. The little girl's parents understand and aren't pursuing, but they had to take her to the ER and the bites were pretty significant. My granddaughters tell me that the girl ran over and jumped on the dog's back while he was laying down, like he was a pony, and the dog yelped and bit her a couple of times. I feel so terrible. What should I do? 

I really think the dog owner would tell us if the dog he had for two years might have an excuse for how he behaved. Instead, we hear from him that the dog has nipped at other children around his granddaughters, and had trouble with people in his previous home. It just doesn't sound like this stranger-child the first time around the dog, committed a felony so extreme to warrant such a response by the dog, without it being disclosed, especially since the man wants to find an out for the dog.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

llombardo said:


> Midnite was really close to being put to sleep. He was brought to the shelter because he nipped the kids and they had a baby on the way. He also redirected on me and got my leg pretty good. He didn't have any manners and no kind of training, that was obvious. I worked with him myself for a long time and then with training. I look at him and think how sad it would have been for him to be destroyed. He adores kids and is a completely different dog. I know from experience that the same dog can be completely different in a different house . All Midnite required was time, patience, and training.


nipped the kids is much different than an out and out attack such as this
nipped the kids is like a little fearful or feeling trapped 
this was much different from the description
3 separate bites in 3 separate places
a dog like this in this thread can easily kill a child 

also redirection from overstimulation of some sort is still far different than is described here
this particular dog in this thread should not be placed anywhere because you cannot ever guarantee it wont happen again with even far more disastrous consequences


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This was last year. I bolded some stuff. 31 deaths. 
Fatal dog attacks in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*Fatalities reported in 2013*

Date Category of Dog Victim's name Victim's age Circumstances 

January 8 Pit bull Betty Ann Chapman Todd 65 years Emergency Medical Technicians found the victim with dog bites to neck, head, and face, and could not revive her. According to the owners, the victim had visited the house on several occasions and the dog had never shown aggressiveness towards her.[461] *Later, investigators discovered that the dog had a history of violence and had killed a Siberian Husky that it lived with. Four months prior to the attack on Ms Todd, the owners had attempted to reduce the dog's aggression by neutering it*.[462] 

January 19 Pit bull Christian Gormanous 4 years Climbed over a fence and got too close to the neighbor's tethered dog.[463] 

February 8 Pit bull Elsie Grace 91 years Found dead with dog bites in motel room that she shared with her son and the two dogs. Autopsy results to determine if she died before or after being bitten are pending.[464] 

February 16 Pit bull Isaiah Aguilar 2 years Killed in a neighbor's yard by a dog tied up in the yard.[465] 

March 2 Pit bull Ryan Maxwell 7 years Killed by a dog that was kept chained in the back yard of a home he was visiting. The dog may have been let off the chain by the boy or may have broken free before the attack.[466][467] *The dog's owners had been cited previously for letting their dogs run loose. Officers had also been called to their house on reports that dogs were not being fed. Although no criminal charges were filed in relation to this dog attack, one of the owners, Jereme Carter, is now in jail on murder charges from an unrelated case*.[468] 

March 6 Pit bull (2) Daxton Borchardt 14 Months Killed by his babysitter's two dogs at the babysitter's residence. The babysitter was also injured but survived.[469] 

March 27 Pit bull & Pit bull-mix (7) Monica Renee Laminack 21 months Killed by dogs belonging to her mother's boyfriend.[470] An autopsy confirmed that the child died of injuries consistent with a dog attack.[471] The child's mother was subsequently charged with Cruelty to Children in the Second Degree.[472] 

April 7 Pit bull Mix (2) or Bulldogs Tyler Jett 7 years Attacked while riding his bike by his neighbor's two dogs and died 5 days later. *The owner a week prior had received a citation for allowing his aggressive dogs loose and is currently facing criminally negligent manslaughter charges. Some sources identify the two dogs as "pit bull mixes*";[473][474] other reports identified them as a "brindle bulldog" and an "Alapaha blue blood bulldog".[475][476] Some articles referred to them as both "pit bull mixes" and "bull dogs" within the same article.[477] Photos of the dogs exist.[478]

April 11 Pit bull - Mastiff mix [479] Claudia Gallardo 38 years A woman was killed after being attacked by a dog* that has terrorized the neighborhood for months, according to authorities and residents.[480][481] The dog, reported to be a female pit bull/mastiff mix, was also reported to have attacked neighbors in the past.*[479] *Claudia Gallardo was killed after jumping into the fenced yard where the dog was kept*.[479] 

April 22 American Staffordshire Terrier (Pit Bull)[482] Jordyn Arndt 4 years Four year old Jordyn Arndt, was mauled by a pit bull at her babysitter’s home. The owner of the dog, 24-year old Jana Marie Wright, was supposed to be babysitting Jordyn and has been charged with multiple felonies punishable with up to 35 years in prison.[483][484] *Neighbors say that they had previously filed several complaints about the dog*.[483] *The babysitter had a history of arrest on drug-related and child-neglect charges*.[485] 

April 24 American Staffordshire Terrier mix (Pit Bull mix) Beau Rutledge 2 years The boy was killed while the mother stepped away to use the restroom. The dog was 8-years-old and neighbors said they had never thought it was aggressive.[486][487][488][489] 

April 30 German Shepherd Rachael Honabarger 35 years The attack happened at home involving a male dog registered to her husband. The dog was 100-150 lbs and 3 years old. *One neighbor said that the dog has been aggressive and guarded the house*.[490] News sources reported that she died four days after the attack; however, the date given in her obituary was 2 days after the attack.[491] 

May 8 4 Pit bulls or Feral dogs (Mixed breed dogs with "possible 'pit bull' influence")[492][493] Carlton Freeman 80 years Freeman, a bi-lateral amputee at the knees, was driving in his wheelchair when he was attacked by a pack *of four dogs that neighbors said had been roaming the neighborhood on-and-off for months*. He tried to fight the dogs, but was unable to and was pulled from his wheelchair. The incident happened on May 8, and Freeman died on May 12. The coroner says he had lacerations and bites “from his legs to the top of his head." Initial reports said that three of the dogs belonged to a woman who is Freeman's neighbor and relative.[494][495][496] *The Sheriff's Office later announced that the four dogs were feral and did not belong to anyone*.[497] Sheriff's reports described the dogs as "brown dogs" and Animal Control claimed that they were mixed breed "with possible 'pit bull' influence."[493] However, multiple news sources stated that they were pit bulls. Photos of three of the dogs are available.[493] One of the four dogs has not yet been found.[498] 

May 9 Pack of four free-ranging dogs: Pit bulls[499] Pamela Marie Devitt 63 years The woman was walking near her home when she was attacked by a pack of dogs. DNA results later confirmed that four of the eight dogs owned by a local man had been involved in the attack.[499] *Local residents reported that the area repeatedly has problems with packs of dogs running loose. The owner of the dogs was charged with second degree murder for the attack. He was also charged with assault with a deadly weapon for a previous incident in which his dogs attacked a horse and rider and he threw a stone at the rider*. He also faced several charged related to a marijuana growing operation he was running.[499] *The dogs had been involved in several other attacks for which the owner was cited, and he had also been cited for failing to vaccinate, license, sp*ay, neuter or microchip the dogs.[500] He was also in violation of the legal limit in that jurisdiction of owning no more than 3 dogs.* In 2006 he had had four other dogs confiscated and destroyed after they attacked *emus.[501] [502][503][504][505]

June 9 Bullmastiff[506] Ayden Evans[507] 5 years Killed inside the home of family friends near Jessieville, Arkansas where he had been staying for two weeks because his family's home in Moore, Oklahoma had been destroyed by tornados. After the child had started loudly crying, the 150 lb. dog came running out of a back room and attacked him. The dogs owner stopped the attack, but not before the boy had  received serious wounds to the neck and face. He was rushed to a hospital in Hot Springs, AR where he was declared dead. The dog ran away, so authorities began trying to find it and euthanize it. Investigators declined to say just yet whether or not the owners would face any charges.[508][509] 

June 17 Pit Bull mix Nephi Selu 6 years *The boy was attempting to ride the dog "like a horse" when he was bitten a single time on the top of the head*.[510] The two-year-old, un-neutered male dog had been acquired as a guard dog[510] and was kept in the backyard of the family's home.[511] After the bite, the family did not think he had been seriously injured and expected him to be fine "after a couple of stitches."[510] He was brought to the hospital 2 1/2 hours after being bitten and died two hours later.[510] The dog had up-to-date rabies shots and was properly licensed.[512] 

June 25 Pit bull mix Arianna Jolee Merrbach 5 years Killed after walking up to a chained dog that belonged to her aunt.[513] The dog had been kept on a chain in violation of the county's laws against prolonged tethering, and animal cruelty charges were being considered against the owner.[514] 

July 1 Labrador Retriever mix[515]
or "large, longer haired, black" Mixed breed[516]
or Mastiff-Rottweiler mix[517]
Linda Oliver 63 years She was killed by a dog that she had taken in as a stray. The incident occurred while she was attempting to stop it from attacking her other "small brown wiener dog."[518] September 15 Husky-Mix Jordan Reed 5 years Jordan was found dead after being mauled by one or more loose dogs. "[519]

September 22 "Mixed breed pit bull Daniel "Doe" 2 years Daniel was mauled by 3 mix-pit bulls at his babysitter’s home. "[520]
September 23 "Mixed breed pit bull"[521] Samuel Eli Zamudio 2 years Killed by up to five dogs that belonged to his grandmother, in the back yard of her house. Authorities do not know how the boy ended up in the yard with the dogs, and occupants of the house said they heard no screams or other noises, but the boy was found dead with bite marks to his face and neck. *Neighbors had complained to authorities about the noise and "stench from the yard" where the dogs were kept*. A photo of one of the dogs is available.[521] The boy's grandmother and uncle were later arrested in Colton, California.[522][523] 

September 27 Pit bull Jordan Ryan 5 years The boy was unsupervised at a family friend's house and entered a backyard pen where the dog was kept. The dog had been acquired 6 weeks earlier.[524] 

November 1 Pit bull Terry Douglass 56 years Her dog, Boosie, which she *originally acquired for protection*[525] and had raised from a puppy. *It had previously attacked a family member and Douglass,* *who carried a large facial scar as a result*. B*oosie had been taken away by authorities, but Douglass had fought to have Boosie back, and he had recently been returned to her* apartment in Balitimore, MD. Officers speculated Douglass, a handicapped woman, may have fallen on the dog, and described the scene as "horrific".[526] 

November 4 Pit bulls Katherine Atkins 25 years Went out to the kennel behind their home in Kernersville, NC to feed the dogs as usual, but this time they attacked. They belonged to her boyfriend. The dogs were euthanized and will be given a necropsy for clues as to why they attacked.[527] 

November 5 Pit bulls Nga Woodhead 65 years On her daily walk about a mile from her home in Spanaway, Washington. The dogs had escaped from a nearby property and attacked from the rear. She fought the dogs with her umbrella and called her husband. A passerby tried to help. He told her husband the location, who called 911.Another neighbor gave the passerby a gun and he shot one, which fled. Police arrived and shot them, and an ambulance took her to the hospital. Her arm was especially badly mauled ("shredded"). Almost a week later, when she was sitting in the hospital waiting for her discharge paperwork, she died of a heart attack thought to be brought on by “extremity contusions, lacerations and fractures due to dog bites”. The Sheriff recommended the county prosecutor file charges, but it was not yet clear whether they would.[528] 

November 8 Pit bull(s) Levi Watson 4 years Visiting a home in White County, Arkansas. The boy "managed to get out of the home" and "enter a fenced-in area where three pit bulls were being held."[529] Emergency crews brought him to the hospital where he died. At press time, police were investigating which of three pit bulls were responsible; what the fate of the dogs, which were taken into custody, would be; and whether any charges would be filed. The owner was cooperating with the investigation.[530] 

November 21 Pit bull/Bull Mastiff mix; Rat Terrier Joan Kappen 75 years Hot Springs Villiage, Arkansas[531] The owner of the 87-pound dog *said it would frequently "bite out of fear.*" *It had previously bitten an intoxicated family member in the face, bitten a neighbor in the face, and bitten its owner on the arm and leg. The attack occurred after the dogs were let outside unsupervised, off-leash in an unfenced yard*. 

December 7 Pit bulls (2) Jah'Niyah White 2 years South Side, Chicago [532] December 10 Shiba Inu (2) Mia Gibson 3 months Attack occurred in the Columbus, Ohio home when the parents were sleeping. Mia was a premature baby who had only come home from the hospital Thanksgiving.[533] 

December 13 Pit bull Michal Nelson 41 years Her own dog. She had gone outside, where the dog was kept chained up in a pen, to break ice on the dog's water bowl, when it attacked. Her brother found her body and shot the dog. Her eleven other dogs were taken away by authorities.[534] 

December 28 Boxer Tom J. Vick 64 years Vick and his wife tried to break up a fight at their home in Bullhead City, AZ between their two dogs when one of them turned on them. He died soon after arriving at the local hospital; she survived and was flown to a Las Vegas, NV hospital.[535] *

The point is, that in many of these cases, the dogs have a history of aggression, and these sort of tragedies, very uncommon need to be prevented all the same. 
*


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Not only a long shot but rhetorical in a 'thinking out loud but not really going to happen' way is what I meant. It sounds like the dog will be euth'd Monday.

However, unless YOU are a person who is part of Best Friends Sanctuary and empowered to make decisions on their behalf, what you say below is also very, very.....rhetorical. 





my boy diesel said:


> *It would be the only long shot I would even consider suggesting..*
> 
> false hope
> they would never take a dog like this


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

nope but i have contacted them before
i feel quite confident therefore in my comment

ps
http://bestfriends.org/Resources/Pe...ues/Aggressive-Dog-Resources-for-Individuals/


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

SMH.

You have a lot more confidence then me is all I can say. I'd never speak for an organization that I'm not a member of based on having 'contacted them before'...but that's just me.

Thank you for clarifying that you aren't in a position of authority or member of their organization.



my boy diesel said:


> nope but i have contacted them before
> i feel quite confident therefore in my comment


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I contacted Best Friends once to check whether they would take a dog with a single bite that happened in the heat of a dog fight. They said they cannot because of liability issues. If the dog were to bite one of their staff and they got sued, they could close their business.

There were some very big bucks in donations involved with the Vick's dogs that gave them the incentive to help. And the publicity of them helping with the rehab surely brought in long term financial support.

But no, they would not take in everyday Joe's dog with a bite history. They offered verbal advice to the owners.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Ironically, Best Friends was once, I thought, a sanctuary for dogs that were court ordered euthanized or sent to them. I liked them better then.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

BF does not get involved if there is no publicity involved or headlines to be made
which is why the vick dogs went there
the vick dogs were another matter anyway 
former fighting dogs have dog to dog aggression not dog to human aggression 
i mean they could have both but i am guessing primarily dog to dog
not a lot of risk to humans there
rebel your experience was similar to mine 
i contacted them a few times actually and only once did they reply and advise euth for the dog in question


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

They will take dogs with big headlines and big bucks attached. I see them recommended often for bite cases - they are not interested. I talked to them on the phone, they have liability concerns like, but they have much more money than average rescues.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well when you think of it there is only so many open spots for a no kill sanctuary to take unwanted pets that fit nowhere else
without building on or offing some of them that are already there :shrug:


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Best Friends will take behavioral cases that have been internally evaluated by trusted professionals in their established shelter/rescue network. They will not take owner surrenders or referrals from outside parties.

I have a great deal of empathy and respect for their position. Opening yourself to taking owner surrenders means inviting a _ton_ of drama and time-sucking hassle. It has nothing to do with publicity, headlines, or money.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Guys I meant it in the most off the cuff way when I first brought it up as some were wondering about if there were any way to save the dog. Geeze.

I am very well aware that with ANY rescue a dog with a bite history is a HUGE longshot in being taken in and rehabbed whether from a shelter or owner.

I fostered a dog (JRT) that turned out to be a child biter and was euth'd in the end because we just didn't have any safe options.

So been there, been through it, done that and it was NOT a happy thing.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ya know....The Vick dogs did drive a lot of publicity and probably donations too.

Fair point.



my boy diesel said:


> BF does not get involved if there is no publicity involved or headlines to be made
> which is why the vick dogs went there
> the vick dogs were another matter anyway
> former fighting dogs have dog to dog aggression not dog to human aggression
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In general (*not* about best friends in particular).....

There are ways around the drama. If someone surrenders a dog they sign a form relieving them of legal ownership. They aren't invited to follow up nor responded to should they try to follow up on the dog. 

I know pulling from shelters avoids having to deal with those steps but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done through rescues as well. 

Lots of dogs are owner surrenders at shelters and the people fill out some paper work, walk away and never go back or follow up......





Merciel said:


> Best Friends will take behavioral cases that have been internally evaluated by trusted professionals in their established shelter/rescue network. They will not take owner surrenders or referrals from outside parties.
> 
> I have a great deal of empathy and respect for their position. Opening yourself to taking owner surrenders means inviting a _ton_ of drama and time-sucking hassle. It has nothing to do with publicity, headlines, or money.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

O.k. that was what I thought, at least part of their mission was too..so I'm not alone in that. 

Still, I know no matter what, dogs with bite histories are very, very difficult to save/place with a rescue regardless if it's a owner surrender or shelter dog. 





middleofnowhere said:


> Ironically, Best Friends was once, I thought, a sanctuary for dogs that were court ordered euthanized or sent to them. I liked them better then.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

If you've ever been stupid enough to provoke a dog to bite, or been cautious enough to avoid provoking a dog that's giving every sign it's more than willing to bite (I've been both) then you'll know that a "bite history" encompasses many different situations leading to a bite.

For a dog to air snap or quickly pinch its teeth on you, this is a sure warning from the dog, and depending on your own feelings about it, this can be an excellent learning opportunity for both of you. Don't push the dog that far, don't let the dog determine the rules, or whatever.

But when a dog had no reservations about giving its all, going after you multiples times, leaving massive wounds then this isn't what I'd call a dog that's willing to compromise, or a dog that I'd want to work with. Because IME the dogs that have a bite history usually have extenuating circumstances that make it easy to see why it happened. But repeatedly going back to attack and attack again is so far from 'normal' that I'd definitely think there was something seriously wrong with it. This would be an awfully hard sell, and saying "bite history" in the typical sense would be denying how bad it truly is. When I think "bite history" I don't tend to think about savage attacks.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've never intentionally provoked a bite....

I have been bitten, unprovoked twice. One was a kuvasz and the other a mess of a pet line/WL GSD.

I was not touching or interacting with either of the dogs at the time and both times the owner was right there.

The kuvasz could have done some real damage if he wanted 130 pounds of lean raw fed unaltered male. He just gave me a quick hard nip in the stomach, due to clothing and my belt he did not break skin and it was just one bite.

The GSD got me on my calf, broke skin through jeans, four canine marks but not punctures, open mouth bite encompassing about 2/3 s of my calf. He bit and released. Had I not had jeans on it probably would have been slight puncture wounds.

IMO both these dogs are potentially dangerous as the bites were unprovoked. I told both owners they had better take theses incidents seriously. The kuvasz owner kind of got it and now takes more precautions and the GSD owner/rescuer went into total denial.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Unless you know the dogs' owners very well, you'll never know if those bites were honestly unprovoked or not. They could be very badly conditioned to "protect" their owners, and just being close enough was enough to rile them up. If the owners are taking them out in public without muzzles, they're idiots. Either that, or you're nothing at all like your screen persona, lmao!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The GSD was a recent rescue, bad history, but was mostly neglect. He was on leash, owner was clueless, never owned a dog like that before. None of her other dogs (of which there were 4) had a shred of obedience.

I had met the kuvasz before and fed him. Had given him a food just a Few moments before. Door to back yard was open, I was standing far away from the door, dog was between me and the door. Owner was always a bit cautious with him, he was sort of 'full of himself'. I think he just was trying to show me who was 'boss'.

In both cases I was standing still, hands still, having normal conversation with the owners and not interacting with the dogs.

I am exposed to more dogs then the average person. 

It's my personal experience that the majority of dogs that have some sort of aggression issue had been showing signs that they would long before a serious bite occurred.





Blanketback said:


> Unless you know the dogs' owners very well, you'll never know if those bites were honestly unprovoked or not. They could be very badly conditioned to "protect" their owners, and just being close enough was enough to rile them up. If the owners are taking them out in public without muzzles, they're idiots. Either that, or you're nothing at all like your screen persona, lmao!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I totally agree with you, and I'm certain that any dog that's gone so far as to bite someone had been showing signs of their potential long before the bites happen. Whether or not their owners can recognize it makes all the difference in the world. But this is where management and muzzles come into play. If you can't manage a dog like this, do the dog a favor a find someone who can. "Oops, sorry!" isn't management.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup!

After the GSD bit me the owner didn't even ask if I was o.k. She launched right into gazillion excuses..... :crazy:




Blanketback said:


> I totally agree with you, and I'm certain that any dog that's gone so far as to bite someone had been showing signs of their potential long before the bites happen. Whether or not their owners can recognize it makes all the difference in the world. But this is where management and muzzles come into play. If you can't manage a dog like this, do the dog a favor a find someone who can. "Oops, sorry!" isn't management.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Darn, you shouldn't have misted yourself with "Eau de T-Bone" right?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Lol! 

My poor hubby was attacked recently too so...

He was at a job, folks accidentally let the dog out!!!

Good thing it was chihuahua though because it latched into the toe of his steel toe work boot and was biting and gnawing away. Wouldn't stop til the owners got it. 

Me? No...it's gotta be a 13O pound kuvasz. :crazy:




Blanketback said:


> Darn, you shouldn't have misted yourself with "Eau de T-Bone" right?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yeah, yikes! My brother was bitten by a GSD while working last summer. The back of his thigh had a bruise the size of a pie plate, with the indentations from the canines too, that lasted for weeks - even though his skin wasn't actually broken, he said it hurt like the dickens!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Let's just say it gives you an appreciation for what helpers/decoys do with bite work....:wild:

I gotta run, enjoyed chatting with you (Eau de t bone gonna tell hubby that one hehehe) Have a good day. 




Blanketback said:


> Yeah, yikes! My brother was bitten by a GSD while working last summer. The back of his thigh had a bruise the size of a pie plate, with the indentations from the canines too, that lasted for weeks - even though his skin wasn't actually broken, he said it hurt like the dickens!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Decoys do it for fun, and there's a motive to their madness. Having a dog chomp on your bare hand is just as painful as slamming a door on it. Ouch - neither one is something I want to do again anytime soon. LOL!

You have a great day too!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not breaking the skin, shows a LOT of bite inhibition on a dog's part in my opinion and experience. It is more of a really bad method of communicating on the dog's part. And certainly not what this thread is about. 

The dog in question is probably gone now. It is terribly sad for the owners. Hopefully it was not all that hard on the dog. But there are three little kids that have totally been neglected through this thread. The granddaughters witnessed a traumatic event and are probably feeling somewhat scared of the dog, but also terribly sad for the dog. I feel for them. 

And for the other little girl, seven year old girl, who will probably have a pretty negative opinion of our breed as well as her parents and friends and grand parents, and aunts and uncles, and so forth. I feel really sad for her too. I hope that someday she is introduced and is able to get to know a really good specimen of the breed that can teach her that all of these dogs are not like this.

I've been bitten for real a couple of times. It is going to happen. Accidents do. Only one time, was it not an accident. I know now that that working line/pet line dog was communicating to me. He gave me scars on three fingers in one single bite, after taking my other wrist in his mouth and letting go. I did not stop, and so he gave me that one single bite, which got me in three places on my hand. Today, I don't think that would have happened. But I did push that dog to bite -- not intentionally, but either way I did. 

The other bites were much more significant, trip to the ER for both of them, the one to the calf took over a year to heal, large bruise and punctures. Single bite and a total accident. The bitch was fighting with another bitch, got bit on the back and wheeled and my calf got in the way. She released immediately but the damage was done. 

The one in the hand was also part of two dogs fighting and I shoved a hand in to grab a collar. Not the right thing to do that time. I took my blood stump back to my car and drove my car toward the fighting dogs and startled them enough to swing out, and throw one inside a crate so fast it would make your head spin. My fault on that, but it took, drains and stitches and I still have a pretty good scar on my hand. 

Our breed can do damage when they want to. If they bite without doing damage, then you have to think -- the dog is communicating, how can I get this dog to a better state, through training and leadership, because whatever I am doing is NOT working. 

GSDs do not NEED their teeth to do damage. Today, Babs performed a perfect uppercut with her rock of a head, right into my two front teeth, and I am surprised they are still there. Yesterday, she walked by and gave me a tail whip in the bad knee. I wonder what the heck she is trying to communicate.


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## OrangeJillius (May 29, 2013)

*I think this dog is now in a rescue.*

I noticed today that a GSD rescue in Indianapolis posted on fb about a dog named Brutus that bit a child that was over playing with the owner's grand kids. I am thinking this is the same dog, or an amazing coincidence. The dog is also 4 years old, although the rescue said this was the only incident and that the owners surrendering him had no idea something like this would happen. They are looking for a quiet home without many visitors.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That would be one heck of a coincidence. If it's the same dog IMO it's very, very wrong to not give the history as it was given here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And this is EXACTLY why ANY rescue is INSANE for taking a dog whose owners tell them it bit a kid. People LIE. People cannot take responsibility for their own dog. They cannot "man-up" and do the right thing. 

They put the dog onto someone else, and minimize everything in hopes that someone will take the dog so that _they themsleves_ will not have to kill it. 

If this dog than bites someone else, the former owners will totally and completely blame the rescue for placing the dog wrong, or not assessing it properly. 

It is so easy to love dogs. They are honest. Even when they are exasperating, they are completely honest.

Is there anyway to e-mail a link to this thread to the people at the rescue?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I found the rescue here Sue. Dog is at top. Sure sounds like O.Julius is right, looks like the same story but modified from the information given here on our forum. https://www.facebook.com/gsd.indy


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## OrangeJillius (May 29, 2013)

I have only heard good things about the rescue, so I would guess it probably was the owners leaving out some info.

The rescue is GSD rescue Indy. I think I have seen on some threads that there are people on here who know the owner of the rescue, Amber (I think that is her name) that may be able to reach her? I follow the rescue fb page, the info on Brutus was posted 10 hours ago, if you search GSD rescue indy (from within facebook) the page will pop up if anyone wants to read the post and see if it sounds like the same dog/situation. I am not at all familiar with dog bite incidents and I have no idea if the right home or training can fix this boy, but I would hope the owner would give all the needed info to a rescue willing to take a chance. Wow...I did not even think to just post a link...oof! Sorry!


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## Scout's Mama (Oct 30, 2013)

Only hope is that Buckeyes are in Ohio. Maybe not the same dog.

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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

"If" that's him I see a bite disclosure?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Since you follow the page do you think a link to this thread should be posted to alert the rescue, just in case? 



OrangeJillius said:


> I have only heard good things about the rescue, so I would guess it probably was the owners leaving out some info.
> 
> The rescue is GSD rescue Indy. I think I have seen on some threads that there are people on here who know the owner of the rescue, Amber (I think that is her name) that may be able to reach her? I follow the rescue fb page, the info on Brutus was posted 10 hours ago, if you search GSD rescue indy (from within facebook) the page will pop up if anyone wants to read the post and see if it sounds like the same dog/situation. I am not at all familiar with dog bite incidents and I have no idea if the right home or training can fix this boy, but I would hope the owner would give all the needed info to a rescue willing to take a chance. Wow...I did not even think to just post a link...oof! Sorry!


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## OrangeJillius (May 29, 2013)

I can try to send it via fb message, it says in the post that she would likely miss any comments made and to contact her directly to discuss him.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I see a bite disclosure?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Yeah... If anyone doesn't think that's the same dog they're crazy.

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...43217579843.-2207520000.1395101795.&source=54

There is more information that I could only find/read from the app.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

If you mean that they tell the story of the child with multiple bites on the FB page, yes.

But....it appears that the rescue was not informed of the history of aggression which was mentioned in here.....



Chip18 said:


> I see a bite disclosure?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

To soon??


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

What is your point??




Chip18 said:


> To soon??


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

https://www.facebook.com/gsd.indy/posts/567603440013818

I think that's it there. 

Yeah, they either don't mention, or don't know that the dog had more of a history. But if there was never a bite requiring stitches, it wasn't recorded against the dog and wasn't a "real" bite. They knew the dog had signs (likely the nipping) of being aggressive which they disclosed was the reason for typically keeping him crated around guests.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes that's it. I linked to the page earlier too, this dog is pinned at the top.

In blue, good point.



DJEtzel said:


> https://www.facebook.com/gsd.indy/posts/567603440013818
> 
> I think that's it there.
> 
> Yeah, they either don't mention, or don't know that the dog had more of a history. But if there was never a bite requiring stitches, it wasn't recorded against the dog and wasn't a "real" bite. They knew the dog had signs (likely the nipping) of being aggressive which they disclosed was the reason for typically keeping him crated around guests.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

His description on fb: "Brutus bit the child several times requiring stitches." is more than enough to make sure that they're going to place him in a very experienced home.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Boy I gotta say I am really surprised they found a rescue to take this on and it's an owner surrender too. I hope it works out.....


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## OrangeJillius (May 29, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Since you follow the page do you think a link to this thread should be posted to alert the rescue, just in case?


I sent a message via fb, included a link to this thread and copied the opening post into the message as well.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I hope it works out too. I know there are people out there with the experience to deal with this, and they usually only want to help the most challenging dogs anyway.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> What is your point??


Some people should only have Goldfish.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, I after reading djetzel and blanketbacks thoughts I agree with them...but it won't hurt for them to see this thread just in case.



OrangeJillius said:


> I sent a message via fb, included a link to this thread and copied the opening post into the message as well.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ahhh, o.k. Lol! Thanks. 



Chip18 said:


> Some people should only have Goldfish.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

As long as Brutus goes to someone with real experience then it won't be a problem. With the description they have for him, that's very upfront. Multiple bites with stitches can't be spun into nipping no matter how hard you try, lol. Good luck Brutus! xo


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The history and context matters too, but as djetzel pointed out the mention of the dog needing to be crated is indicative of a history....without too much reading between the lines!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

They say he's protective and they'd like to find him a home with experience, and without many visitors. It sounds like they're making the right choice there. Someone will be thrilled to take this boy into their home - he's only 4 years old. They're also insisting on local, so they can do a home visit. That's really important, since you never know when some nutter will 'fall in love' with his picture, and lie through their teeth to acquire him. Meanwhile, they run a daycare....you know what I'm saying, lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah, the rescue will have to be very strict with this placement.

This...after all the discussion about how not even a big 'sanctuary' like Best Friends would take a dog like this, owner surrender and all and look what happens! You just never know.

But you know, I have to be honest, knowing that he inflicted multiple bites on a 7 year old and wouldn't stop until the owner intervened.....if it were my rescue I wouldn't take him on.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like the owner was up front with the rescue. 

Now it is the rescue's fault if this dog bites another child. Or kills one. I know it's rare, but most of the time, they have a history like this dog. 

But ya know what. Why isn't the OP keeping the dog, and managing it better if it was all his fault? He's the one who has 2 years invested in this dog. But it is his son-in-law's dog? Maybe the guy with the little kids says, no way are my kids going to visit you with that dog. 

It hurts rescues, and people wanting to adopt a dog when a dog is adopted like this, and then bites. Then adopted again, if he bites again, he is doing no favors for all the dogs out there needing homes. You are supposed to be able to get a really nice dog from rescues. Every time a dog bites, a bajillion hear about it. Every time it is a GSD, all those people notice and remember. I expect the same is true about dogs that are rescued.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

u might wanna link the rescuer to the ops 1st thread where it is stated

*Thanks for the responses. Here is more background. Brutus had been a problem at his prior residence as he had nipped at a couple of kids (always around the granddaughters) so I guess he was showing his protectiveness. We now have him at our house 95 percent of the time and we just moved to be close to the grandkids. The child he bit a few days ago was new to him. There was a puncture of the forearm, a gash in the calf and a bite in the back that showed all four canine teeth in action. Fortunately he released, probably when I intervened. He is now four and we got him when he was two. He had training at about one year old but I don't know what kind.*


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Given his history I don't see a good outcome up ahead. I thought the description was misleading, probably unintentionally. Protection??? Puh-leeez. And his actual history as described here is considerably more problematic than the owner led the rescue to believe. Contained b/c he got too excited...Major major eyeroll. 'No prior incident'. Now that whopper will cost the tale teller some serious time in Purgatory. Nope, they're soft peddling his very real, very serious aggression problems, which unfortunately could continue to escalate.

The owner should be ashamed of what he's done. I only hope that other innocent people, especially young children, don't pay the price for his evasion & dishonesty.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> u might wanna link the rescuer to the ops 1st thread where it is stated
> 
> *Thanks for the responses. Here is more background. Brutus had been a problem at his prior residence as he had nipped at a couple of kids (always around the granddaughters) so I guess he was showing his protectiveness. We now have him at our house 95 percent of the time and we just moved to be close to the grandkids. The child he bit a few days ago was new to him. There was a puncture of the forearm, a gash in the calf and a bite in the back that showed all four canine teeth in action. Fortunately he released, probably when I intervened. He is now four and we got him when he was two. He had training at about one year old but I don't know what kind.*


My dog low growled at company and I took corrective measures, I worked with him to make sure he never actually bit anyone!

This dogs bite history is at least partial disclosed! I think a "responsible" owner can give him a second chance at a new first start!  

Tons of folks have dogs that can't qualify for "Cesar 911" . 

Yeah I went there!


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## Scout's Mama (Oct 30, 2013)

Woah. Yeah. "99% of the time" implies "never happened before."

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

biting in two different homes is not good and i am with rt and cant see this ending well
i hope nobody is killed over this
chip you dont get it 
a bite that comes close to or severs an artery can be fatal before any help arrives
if i was the parent of the child in this thread with 3 separate bites requiring stitches i would have insisted that dog be euthanized
people are such bleeding heart idiots


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Hopefully we won't see him causing headlines like this:

Seven-year-old Manitoba girl dead after dogs attack


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I am sure the rescue group talked to everyone involved and based on that info decided that this dog could be helped. I didn't see anything in their post about him that wasn't true. People that know the dog vouched for him also. They know what the liabilities are and I'm sure they are equipped to deal with this dog or else they wouldn't be.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> biting in two different homes is not good and i am with rt and cant see this ending well
> i hope nobody is killed over this
> chip you dont get it
> a bite that comes close to or severs an artery can be fatal before any help arrives
> ...


I understand dog bites got the stitches, but I would "assume" one of the restrictions would be "home with no kids".


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My boy diesel, I'm really surprised by your posts. It wasn't very long ago that both of us were defending the 5 year old GSD who bit the daughter. You even went so far as to talk to the owner on the phone, and were willing to take his dog. I know this case is different, in the severity of the bites, but the thing this dog has over the other one is at least this dog didn't go for a family member. That's a big deal, and some would say an even _bigger_ deal. 

If you care enough to change the font size and color, then you're obviously very upset by this. But why not invest some time reading the comments on the fb page, and read that one of the people actually knows this dog, and has had him at their facility, saying he's a great dog? It's probably against the rules to post it myself, or I would. 

You can't get mad at other members here that want all dogs that snap/nip/bite PTS if you're going to allow a variation on it - not at the same time as condemning others who draw the line in a different spot in the sand. I admit, from what we know, this was a vicious attack. But if someone is willing to take on the responsibility that goes along with rehoming this dog, and can assure that no other injuries will happen, then why not try to save this dog. I'm sure the owners are already heartbroken over this whole thing.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In the case of the 5 year old GSD that bit the daughter it was a first bite, one bite and release. The girl was not bonded with the dog and had been told to not put her face in the dogs face and the dog also gave verbal warnings. I was one of the those who felt the dog should get another chance but with a good trainer.

IMO what makes this case different was a pattern, though not clearly specified the comments about 'nipping' or 'snapping' and needing to be crated when ever strangers came over Plus the fact that this was not a one bite and release situation. 

So while I would not put it the way MBD did, I do think different types of bites/attacks and aggressive behaviors justify the different responses. 

I personally don't draw the line at whether the person bit was a family member but at the context and type of bite(s).

When a dog goes out of its way to initiate an attack and/or goes on with multiple bites then it goes to whole new level of concern.

Having said that I think you're correct that even if some of the information given the rescue is fuzzy or incomplete they've got enough to know this dog must be handled with extreme caution.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

We'll never know the whole story, not in either case. But in both cases the dogs were known to be a problem, and this is where the phrase "an accident waiting to happen" is the tragic reality. In the other case, the daughter had been warned not to hug the dog. Obviously this warning had been issued for a reason, and disregarding that warning came at a high cost.

This dog was always crated around guests, with this one horrific exception. I'm in no way trying to downplay the seriousness of the multiple bites, but I'm wondering if this dog could have lived out his life in that home if the management had never faltered. Crated 100% of the time around guests, instead of letting their guard down?

I know with my child-unfriendly GSD, I accepted the fact that he'd never be around them, period. Why he hated them I'll never know, since he wasn't my puppy to raise. Maybe another owner would have trained him to like them? Or tried and failed? My choice was to keep them well separated and it worked.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

in blue, probably!...but they didn't and the bites happened. 

Like you and I were chatting about, I don't ignore warning signs because it often ends badly. BUT people either think the dog 'doesn't mean it' or that they can just 'love the dog enough' or they think they know how to train a dog like that and it stop it from being aggressive. They don't go to a good GSD knowledgeable trainer and then there's a problem (which was the problem with the Kuvasz btw....they knew enough to know there was a problem but didn't take concrete, active steps to do something about it early on).

BTW in dog bite prevention literature it's one of the rules they teach kids in general, don't stick your face in a dogs face so it's a safety rule that applies to all children.

I dunno, all I can say is this dog has some lucky stars lining up for him. The parents of the child who was bit didn't push for him to be PTS and then they find a rescue that will take an owner surrender dog that attacked a 7 year old requiring stitches. That in of itself is amazing.






Blanketback said:


> We'll never know the whole story, not in either case. But in both cases the dogs were known to be a problem, and this is where the phrase "an accident waiting to happen" is the tragic reality. In the other case, the daughter had been warned not to hug the dog. Obviously this warning had been issued for a reason, and disregarding that warning came at a high cost.
> 
> This dog was always crated around guests, with this one horrific exception. I'm in no way trying to downplay the seriousness of the multiple bites, but I'm wondering if this dog could have lived out his life in that home if the management had never faltered. Crated 100% of the time around guests, instead of letting their guard down?
> 
> I know with my child-unfriendly GSD, I accepted the fact that he'd never be around them, period. Why he hated them I'll never know, since he wasn't my puppy to raise. Maybe another owner would have trained him to like them? Or tried and failed? My choice was to keep them well separated and it worked.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Definitely, Dog 101: Never Ignore Warning Signs! But beyond that, there should be a more stringently enforced management protocol. To be otherwise is very careless, and unacceptable. Say you have a peanut allergy: you're going to be very vigilant not to ever expose yourself to that risk, _ever_. This same dedicated effort has to be applied to dogs that pose a bite risk. They can't be given an opportunity like this, to see if they might have changed. They need to be accepted for what they are, and managed unconditionally, for the rest of their days. Some people aren't going to want to do that, but they need to face that fact before these situations present themselves.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> .
> 
> BTW in dog bite prevention literature it's one of the rules they teach kids in general, don't stick your face in a dogs face so it's a safety rule that applies to all children.


ha if you've ever had kids you know that you can have the most dog savvy kids in the world, you can tell them not to stick their faces in the dogs until you are blue in the face and they are still going to get excited or happy or sad at some point and give the dog a hug. You have to train dogs to accept that from kids and if they won't you can't have them with kids.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

blanket this dog has a long history of nipping and biting kids that come play
in that other instance yes gwen said it the dog gave clear warnings 
it was a snap and she walked away
had she savaged the girls face we would not be talking about it
i would be first on the list to say put her down
but the girl was out of line and the dog felt the need to discipline that kid for whatever misguided reason she did it HAD the child clearly respected the dogs space it would not have happened

in this case the owners messed up but this was not a bite and release this was a sustained attack
on a child no less
and this dog has a long history of 'nipping' kids in the home

and i read the comments for gosh sake everyone is saying this is protectiveness??

protectiveness! and it is no wonder this breed is in the shape it is in
poor dog was just protecting the grandchildren from what? a child molester or abuser??
no the dog was protecting against a non-threat
another child
had the owner not intervened it may well have been a headline 

eta more than anything i am distraught that our breed is being represented by these unstable nervy dogs that feel the need to protect against little kids
in all my shepherd owning days my dogs were able to discern a threat from a non threat and react accordingly 
when going to the vet the vet exclaims how different my dogs were than other sheps who often need muzzled due to human aggressiveness
that is not protectiveness when you are at a vet clinic and the dog bites the techs or the vets


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

No, you're missing my point. My point was that there are people out there who think this dog is worth saving and are willing to make a commitment to assure that this attack doesn't repeat itself. And what people call 'protective' means nothing to me, since I wasn't there to see what happened, how could I even begin to assume to know what motivated the dog? I just think it's unfair of you to say that because you wouldn't take this dog, that nobody else should either.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

if i am not mistaken that rescue was not given full disclosure or if they were they arent putting it out there on their page because there is nothing about ongoing aggression towards kids

i got your point just fine you are confused as to the differences between the two cases

*So while I would not put it the way MBD did, I do think different types of bites/attacks and aggressive behaviors justify the different responses. *

exactly this


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

OP said, as you highlighted, that the dog had nipped at a couple of kids previously. That action lead to the dog being rehomed in the first place. Which was an excellent call, BTW. So while I agree with you that this was an outright vicious attack, I am confused as to why you'd deny the dog a chance to live its life out if someone can step up and care for this dog properly? I see that there is quite a difference in severity, but I don't see how you're able to dictate what someone else is capable of.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> I just think it's unfair of you to say that because you wouldn't take this dog, that nobody else should either.


Please get real. I've had rescue dogs for over 25 years. Many people won't take rescue dogs, of those of us that do, probably half or more of those have kids. Ok out of those left how many want shepherds and have shepherd experience? I am one of few rescue homes with grown kids and shepherd experience. I wouldn't take that dog! There are so many good stable shepherds needing rescue. Maybe they have been abused, or starved, just neglected, or are old? Whatever the case, they deserve homes too. I can put my time and energy and money into saving several shepherds that need saving, or I can focus it all on one dog that will have to always be managed, muzzled or locked up. There are a very few special people that will and I'd venture to say they are probably already full.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

bb you do realize i am not in control of this situation correct?
the owner has already made the choice
whether or not it winds up a disaster for all remains to be seen 
but i fail to see why you are so angry at me about this :shrug:

the fact is all dog bites differ and how we should respond to them differs


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh sigh. Why are you quoting me when that was a comment that was meant _specifically_ for someone else? Eavesdropper, lol. 

My whole issue here is that MBD was willing to take another problem GSD - but won't extent the same courtesy to someone else. And not just 'anybody else' but a GSD rescue, and also having someone involved who actually knows this dog. How is that hard to understand?

ETA: I'm not angry at you, it's just that I was so in your corner with the other dog, and now it feels like I'm talking to another member, one of the PTS crowd.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

again there is a major difference between the two incidents

your argument is specious because you are not taking that into account

leerburg apparently has a bite assessment tool to determine how severe a bite or attack actually is or was which might be of use to you

the dog in this thread is a fearful nut job beyond mere handling issues
you can see that in the pic on the fb page

and if you cant understand that all bite cases are different and humans should respond to them differently then i cant help you no matter how much i type
you are on your own


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'll try once more: look at dog aggression as a whole, in a pyramid formation. On the bottom there's the zero-tolerance approach, where the outcome is always PTS no matter the cause or the circumstances. We're both somewhere near the top, since we both agree that some issues can be worked with. You _have_ to allow for room at the top. There _will_ be others who'll want to rehabilitate dogs that we personally aren't going to want to work with. You can't just lop the top off the pyramid where you yourself feel comfortable.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> I'll try once more: look at dog aggression as a whole, in a pyramid formation. On the bottom there's the zero-tolerance approach, where the outcome is always PTS no matter the cause or the circumstances. We're both somewhere near the top, since we both agree that some issues can be worked with. You _have_ to allow for room at the top. There _will_ be others who'll want to rehabilitate dogs that we personally aren't going to want to work with. You can't just lop the top off the pyramid where you yourself feel comfortable.


Eavesdropper again. We all have our own line in the sand. I think both dogs that bit kids should be put down. However I am helping with some former OAS dogs that will likely never be able to be placed into a home, they are so damaged. I think you were one of the people in another thread who said they would never take an Akita because they are too aggressive or maybe it was pit bulls? If so that is your line in the sand. If that wasn't you, I'm sure somewhere else you have your own line in the sand.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I just _said_ I wasn't at the top, lol! So yeah, there's my line in the sand. And no, it wasn't me who mentioned other breeds, but I'll only ever have GSDs - my own personal preference.

ETA: maybe I'm not being clear, but the pyramid isn't a reflection on the different breeds of dogs in general, and what they bring to the table - it's a critical look at every individual, and deciding on what the dog's fate will be, after their aggressive acts.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

What the heck are you trying to say here?

So we shouldn't teach kids to look both ways before crossing the street because they may ignore it? So we should instead make the entire world 150% kid safe 150% of the time? 

Further the difference is, as someone who grew up on a farm with large dangerous animals like bulls and beef cows and having been plowed over by an aggressive cow......

Let me tell you what my mother and father told me when I was old enough to comprehend and follow safety rules.....like don't mess with the dog when it's eating....and if I did and got bit, they said "did ya learn something? we told you to leave the dog alone!" 

I know now a days kids aren't expected to learn consequences of thinking they can ignore basic safety rules but that doesn't make it right and the bite prevention folks are doing good work to help keep kids AND dogs safe.

Ha. 





shepherdmom said:


> ha if you've ever had kids you know that you can have the most dog savvy kids in the world, you can tell them not to stick their faces in the dogs until you are blue in the face and they are still going to get excited or happy or sad at some point and give the dog a hug. You have to train dogs to accept that from kids and if they won't you can't have them with kids.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Do you know why I think THIS dog should be put down? It is because THIS dog did something that IS NOT normal behavior for a GSD. A bite can be normal behavior. Several bites can be normal if we are talking about a serious threat, that is fighting back. But several bites on a seven year old kid is NOT normal behavior.

This is not Cesar 9-1-1. This is a dog that is not wired right. No amount of training and leadership is going to make this dog a safe pet. Not in ANY house. The dog CAN be 100% managed for the rest of its life, with absolutely no guaranties that the dog will not do something to its care-giver at some point. 

The dog has already made a bloody blotch on the reputation of the breed. How many bloody blotches are required before someone has the brains and the conscience to do what is right? 

If this dog does do something really foul again, I hope the owners SUE the pants off of the rescue and put them out of business. People need to learn that we CANNOT save them all. We SHOULD NOT save them all. Some really should be put down. 

There has to be consequences to actions. The problem is, that a dog that is startled and bites once, whose owners realize they are up over their heads -- they will try to give up their dog, and the fact that THIS dog KILLED/SERIOUSLY INJURED someone again will mean that rescues everywhere will not touch a dog with ANY bite history. 

It seems like a dumb move to take on this dog. And it will probably have repercussions beyond this dog and its victims.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I'm saying kids are unpredictable, so we have to try to teach our dogs to live with that and a good stable dog will not be phased by kids. 



> I know now a days kids aren't expected to learn consequences of thinking they can ignore basic safety rules but that doesn't make it right


Rolling eyes.... Its not kids now a days its kids now and forever... Or don't you remember that far back? I do and that is a long long time ago! I've got two wonderful grown kids who are awesome. College, good jobs great grades in school never a bad word about either of them. Taught to be respectful to kids, animals, etc. Didn't stop my kid from teasing our goat when we had our back turned. She still has the scar on her leg today where the goat stuck its horn up her shorts and taught her exactly why I said don't tease the animals.

I've got a few scars like that myself. I didn't always listen when I was a kid either. Heck a goose taught me good to never get to close to a mama's babies.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

MBD, while I agree with a lot of your assessments and conclusions regarding this dog, just want to say BlanketBack isn't angry, arguing her point yes, but she is someone I enjoy debating discussing topics with because she doesn't take it personally.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

No it's not the kids now a days, it's the parents!!! Helicoptering around and looking to blame someone, make someone pay if their kid gets hurt.

Don't tell me we as a society haven't gone off the deep end about nothing ever bad should ever happen to kids no matter what. Just look at liability insurance for kid related services or products and lawsuits that arise. It's because we can no longer accept that sometimes bad things will happen to kids, accidents. The last company I worked for wanted to put a day care center in for the working moms. After looking into the costs of liability and regulations they said not just no, but HECK no. It wasn't worth it.

If a kid runs up and jumps on my dogs back and my dog bites once and tries to get away I shouldn't be responsible for the bite and my dog should not be put to sleep!

I'm sick and tired of parents foisting off their responsibility onto society.

You can roll your eyes all you want but it only takes a few steps back, a long view and the pattern is beyond clear.



shepherdmom said:


> I'm saying kids are unpredictable, so we have to try to teach our dogs to live with that and a good stable dog will not be phased by kids.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Aww gee, thanks!  There's no room for emotions in a good debate, IMO. In fact, they usually just get in the way - I know I have to leave threads when they devolve into ridiculousness. And of course, I delete the things I type in anger. Most of the time, lol! 

For the record, I've already said that having bitten in multiple areas, I'd not want to work with this dog. I like good single snaps myself, one is more than enough for me. But I'm also willing to let this dog live, so long as he goes to the _right_ home. And I did read the personal endorsement from the woman who knows this dog and I think that if the dog was what we'd all unanimously consider a canine psycho, he be PTS already.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, you're giving the folks in the rescue and who know the dog personally the benefit of the doubt that they have assessed and are knowledgeable enough to handle this dog safely.

That's fair....


Like I said, that's one lucky dog...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My dogs are great with kids in general but you better bet that the kids in my home know what they can and can't do to a dog. I better NEVER see one of them tease any animal. They know how I feel about it and just don't do it. My niece as young as three chose to "train" the dogs. I would give her treats and she would spend hours with them. No pulling of ears, face, tail,etc. and God help them if we go to the zoo and they even look like they are going to chase a goose, I hate kids that chase the geese and the parents that laugh at it. They aren't going to be laughing when that goose bites them. It has to start when growing up, if we ever got nipped at my mom would always ask us what we did for that to happen? My mom never blamed our dogs for anything and looking back she was right. Not that we teased animals, that wasn't allowed, but things like the dog was sleeping and we stepped on their tail kinda stuff. And if I didn't have kids coming and going in my household I would have no issues taking the dog in this thread.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

I just want to say if he can find a kid-free home, then why not. I have two dogs that have low tolerance with kids. One gets too excited from all their movement and noises and will start to hump them and I would not have known this from the shelter's description of "not good with crawling babies". The other one who's in her 4th and last home and is 13 yrs old and will absolutely bite a kid in the face if they don't know how to read her warning signals or respect her space. She was locked up at paws at 6 months old and was returned for biting a kid. How severe the bite was, no one knows. Her home after that was a single adult and then after that she was chained up in the backyard for many years with kids coming and going and now her home is with me - still kid-free. 

Even though my first thought of a dog biting a kid would be euthanasia, we really don't know the situation. I have watched this kid-biter interact with kids. She's fine until her warning signs (lots of lip licking, head pulling back, eyes widening, head turning, finally showing her teeth) are ignored and they continue to hug her around the head and talk to her face to face. She's a great guard dog at 60lbs. Totally fearless about confronting strangers and very territorial. She's a great house dog too - low energy, quiet, low maintenance, not demanding, affectionate, and mellow.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hector3 said:


> I have watched this kid-biter interact with kids. She's fine until her warning signs (lots of lip licking, head pulling back, eyes widening, head turning, finally showing her teeth) are ignored and they continue to hug her around the head and talk to her face to face.


Really??? Let's hope this dogs new owners "keep" this dog away from kids period!


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*Do you know why I think THIS dog should be put down? It is because THIS dog did something that IS NOT normal behavior for a GSD. A bite can be normal behavior. Several bites can be normal if we are talking about a serious threat, that is fighting back. But several bites on a seven year old kid is NOT normal behavior.*

:thumbup:

so basically this is a temperamental issue
the other situation was a management issue and a dog who has been let rule the roost

in my opinion (only my opinion)
a temperament issue would be euthanized
while a management issue could be worked with

now this temperament issue might be able to be managed 
and a management issue may need to be put to sleep

but this is how i see dogs and their biting
i am not afraid of management issues because i am good at managing my dogs and even other dogs

but temperament issues are a whole nother ball of wax
something i dont have time to sort or work with quite honestly
if someone else feels they can that is fine

i think the problem is too many are seeing this situation in this thread as merely management and they need to realize it is more of a temperament issue
since it is temperament there is no drawing the line at what this dog might do


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> *Do you know why I think THIS dog should be put down? It is because THIS dog did something that IS NOT normal behavior for a GSD. A bite can be normal behavior. Several bites can be normal if we are talking about a serious threat, that is fighting back. But several bites on a seven year old kid is NOT normal behavior.*
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> ...


Aw finally something solid to work with!

I don't know about his temperament, So I'll accept your take on his temperament but I still think had "this" dog been properly managed he never would have had the chance/opportunity to do what he did here! 

If his temperament is unsound that should have been found out through "training"! I tell my dog to "stay" and I turn my back and walk away. If I have a dog that won't stay because he's got some serious issues with who's in charge!! Then it's "my" problem to deal with not JQP's kid. So for me it's still a management issue. 

The leash was dropped, so what tell the dog to "stay" problem solved! He breaks a stay and goes charging after a kid! He'd been thinking about "me" chasing his butt down and not some kid!

And yep a full body tackle and a head lock if need be! I don't know the proper protocol for my "Bat crap crazy GSD is going after a kid"!

But "I" wouldn't inflict my bad choice in picking a dog on the public. That's still "my" take.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Really??? Let's hope this dogs new owners "keep" this dog away from kids period!


Yeah she's been my dog for 3 years now. We have kids come and go in our house and there is no biting or maulings. I'm just saying a kid-biter is not at all hopeless if you can find the right home for it. It's definitely a recipe for disaster when a dog's tolerance is low and when people's kids don't listen time and time and time again, so she just gets crated when that happens.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> *Do you know why I think THIS dog should be put down? It is because THIS dog did something that IS NOT normal behavior for a GSD. A bite can be normal behavior. Several bites can be normal if we are talking about a serious threat, that is fighting back. But several bites on a seven year old kid is NOT normal behavior.*
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> ...


Temperament is what it is, the dog has weak nerves or solid nerves, is hard or soft, is handler sensitive or may be willing to come up the leash, the dog is more or less alpha with the other dogs -- that stuff can mostly be managed properly, and by recognizing who the dog is, you can cater your training methods to promote confidence in a dog that is on the weaker side, and instill yourself as strong leader to the dog that is more independent, and so forth. No, you do not change the temperament, but you can help your dog reach its potential -- and usually most dogs can make fine pets. 

This continued attack on a non-threat does not fall in the normal range of temperament for a GSD. Even weak-nerved dogs are not likely to do this. This goes beyond knowing the temperament of the dog you have and building your management, leadership, and training style around the dog. 

It is more like the dog has brain damage. He is not right. Whether there is no shut off on his prey drive and it becomes KILL, I don't know. I don't want to know. The dog seems to have triggers, I think. The grandfather said he has had trouble with other children, before this one. But in his previous home it was people. If there was no trigger, and out of the blue he attacked something, then I would think rage syndrome which could be a form/type of epilepsy. But it doesn't seem to be the case. I think the dog is simply not wired right. There is a problem in the dog's make up. And no amount of training or leadership is going to change it. Strict and perfect management is required to protect children, adults, the owners financially, the breed, dogs in rescues and shelters, dog owners in general. 

This dog had his opportunity to cut up a kid. I do not think it should be given another opportunity. There are plenty of dogs out there being put down just because their is no more room in a shelter. Put this child-biting dog down and rescue one of them for the would-be new home for this dog. The chances of this dog biting another child and causing significant injury are simply too high to risk it. 

Ya know, I can understand the owners not wanting to put down a beloved pet. I get that. What I don't get is that people who do not live with this dog want to save it. Attacks like this hurt us all. 

Dog aggression does not equal people aggression. But where are the studies that say aggression to small children NEVER equals aggression to older people? Let's say an elderly couple with no children choose to give this guy another chance. Maybe this dog does fine with the guy, but pushes the old gal around. One day she rubs him the wrong way, walks by him in a hallway, and suddenly it is on. 

The dog is 4 years old. For two years the owners have had some problems with the dog. Some nipping. Now the nipping has turned into biting. It sounds like we have a progression here. 

I just do not want to hear about another tragedy that is totally avoidable. 

We cannot trust the average Joe to keep an intact bitch, but we can trust him to keep a dog totally and completely away from children forever. That's totally nuts in my opinion.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> It's definitely a recipe for disaster when a dog's tolerance is low and when people's kids don't listen time and time and time again, so she just gets crated when that happens


Not to pick but she needs to be crated before that happens.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

RubyTuesday said:


> Not to pick but she needs to be crated before that happens.


My thought also.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

RubyTuesday said:


> Not to pick but she needs to be crated before that happens.





Chip18 said:


> My thought also.


Yes I know this very well - I have her and a fila. I know how to manage my dangerous dogs. I'm saying I have seen this before I got her. I know all the previous owners except the first one.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

RubyTuesday said:


> Not to pick but she needs to be crated before that happens.





Chip18 said:


> My thought also.


Sorry - I see where the confusion is. I mean when I know the kids that won't listen come over, she is crated.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hector3 said:


> Yes I know this very well - I have her and a fila. I know how to manage my dangerous dogs. I'm saying I have seen this before I got her. I know all the previous owners except the first one.


The vet tech that got herself killed last year probably felt the same way, she knew how to manage her dangerous dogs. 

I cannot understand how this is left up to the owners to decide, really. The child should have gone to the hospital -- did, got stitches. The dog should have been quarantined, -- yeah it was. Fine. Then the decision to the disposition of this dog should have been up to someone with an official capacity. There is some one-bite forgiveness around here, but if the injuries are significant, they can order a dog euthanized.

I think that was what should have had happened in this case. Because then the dog owner feels bad, but it is out of the person's hands, they do not get to make that decision. They ought to be able to be present at the euthanasia and help in the passing. 

One of the main purposes of society is to protect children. Allowing a dog that does this much damage to a child to be rehomed is NOT protecting children. 

One of the deaths due to dogs last year was a woman whose dog was removed after a vicious attack. She fought for her dog back. She got it back. The dog killed her. 

There were only 31 fatalities in the entire country due to dog attacks. So it is really rare. But a lot of them have histories like this dog. 

Saving every dog is just not the answer. It is not what is best for dogs in general.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

selzer said:


> I think that was what should have had happened in this case. Because then the dog owner feels bad, but it is out of the person's hands, they do not get to make that decision. They ought to be able to be present at the euthanasia and help in the passing.


Selzer, I really think it is inappropriate for anyone to suggest what should happen in a case like this if they have not personally evaluated the dog and if they have not also done a thorough history of the dog.

Most rescues will do a lot of investigation before taking in -*or courtesy listing*- a bite case. I am going to assume that was done and that the dog was deemed adoptable to a very specific type of home.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LifeofRiley said:


> Selzer, I really think it is inappropriate for anyone to suggest what should happen in a case like this if they have not personally evaluated the dog and if they have not also done a thorough history of the dog.
> 
> Most rescues will do a lot of investigation before taking in -*or courtesy listing*- a bite case. I am going to assume that was done and that the dog was deemed adoptable to a very specific type of home.


The person with the official capacity ought to assess the dog or have the dog assessed, but they could also go the other way, and on small children, assess the damage the dog did, number of bites, etc. 

I am sorry. But someone on here said that this rescue is a good one. Whatever, a few pages ago people were saying no reputable rescue would touch the dog. 

So which is it?

Personally, I have no faith in this rescue, and I am afraid that this dog will be placed and be very likely to have more problems. Sometimes given the age of the victim and the amount of damage and the number of bites, that is all we need to know.

Aren't there enough dogs dying in shelters for want of space or is that just a bunch of lies???


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

selzer said:


> The vet tech that got herself killed last year probably felt the same way, she knew how to manage her dangerous dogs.
> 
> I cannot understand how this is left up to the owners to decide, really. The child should have gone to the hospital -- did, got stitches. The dog should have been quarantined, -- yeah it was. Fine. Then the decision to the disposition of this dog should have been up to someone with an official capacity. There is some one-bite forgiveness around here, but if the injuries are significant, they can order a dog euthanized.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I'm confused as to who you are replying to. First sentence is to me, but the rest is about OP's situation?

If my dog ever bit a child that needed stitches, yes I would put that dog down. The case with Ginger is not the same. The shelter chose to keep her alive then someone adopted her and then passed on to another home not because she bit any child and then she was passed on because I voluntarily took her in because I did not like the condition of care she was under. You do not know me and you do not know my dogs, so please don't assume I will end up the same way the vet tech did.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

selzer said:


> I am sorry. But someone on here said that this rescue is a good one. Whatever, a few pages ago people were saying no reputable rescue would touch the dog.
> 
> So which is it?


Most rescues do not want to take on a bite case... that is true. But, there are a lot of factors that are in play. 

If the owner is willing to have the dog evaluated by a rescue-approved evaluator and the dog passes that evaluation, then the rescue will be more likely to take action to help the dog... be that a courtesy listing or accepting full responsibility for the dog. Owner surrenders, in cases like this, are a hard sell. But, it is not impossible. 

And, the fact that this rescue chose to take action in this case does not automatically mean they are irresponsible.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

The dog is a threat to public safety. It should not matter what a rescue evaluator determines. It should have been evaluated by Animal Control and a determination should have been made by them as to the disposition of this animal. I'm rather surprised it was not seized and destroyed based on the owner's description of the child's injuries.

Frankly, I would not have been so understanding if someone who knew their dog had previous issues with children, didn't tell me about them and allowed it anywhere near my child. I would be pushing for not only that dog's death but also criminal charges against its owners. At the very least this is criminal negligence if not endangering the welfare of a child.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I fostered a dog that was deemed aggressive. He was the best dog I have ever fostered. Amazing, actually. So, rescue evaluations are useful and should be taken seriously before putting a dog to sleep. Every dog should be evaluated individually by people who know what they are looking at before a PTS recommendation is made.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

LifeofRiley said:


> Every dog should be evaluated individually by people who know what they are looking at before a PTS recommendation is made.


I did say it should be evaluated. By Animal Control. The department that is responsible to the city and, thus, the people of the city for their safety concerning animals.

I certainly hope that rescue's liability insurance is paid up.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

angelas said:


> I did say it should be evaluated. By Animal Control. The department that is responsible to the city and, thus, the people of the city for their safety concerning animals.
> 
> I certainly hope that rescue's liability insurance is paid up.


I would not put faith in an evaluation by any animal control agency that I have ever met, personally.

Hopefully they could bring in a trained behaviorist or similar. I know two of my dogs would fail a "standard" temp test if they were housed at AC for a quarantine. And neither has ever come close to biting anyone.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> I would not put faith in an evaluation by any animal control agency that I have ever met, personally.


Nor would I.


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## mtmarabianz (Jan 7, 2010)

The Norm now is for GSD to be a Golden Retreiver in a GSD suit.

GSD are working dogs, original herding dogs = running for hours with a job to do.

Did this dog get Any exercise? Ever get to Run? A Large Breed Dog, GSD.
So Many surrenders are = "Not enough time"

Then lets take this large, GSD, exercise or not, in the house, small room? Rambuncious kids? What where they doing?

A GSD should never be left unattended with children under the age of 10, get another breed.

Ultimately the GSD pays with its life.

Lots of other breeds out there, GSD are not for everyone, but they are made to pay the price for not conforming to what the pet owners want.

Also so many want the GSD to conform to children, children need to comform, ie respect, or learn from the adult & reason for my statement above, not leaving a GSD with children under the age of 10, cuz = who know what kids may do, they are kids, ..... but as said, GSD are not for everyone, but everyone want one, with that Golden Retriever interior.

Wonder what the breeding of this dog was, didn't see a pic, doesn't matter, my message is the same.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LifeofRiley said:


> I fostered a dog that was deemed aggressive. He was the best dog I have ever fostered. Amazing, actually. So, rescue evaluations are useful and should be taken seriously before putting a dog to sleep. Every dog should be evaluated individually by people who know what they are looking at before a PTS recommendation is made.


I don't know about Chicago Illinois, but in Ashtabula County, Ohio, there are no animal behaviorists on staff at the shelter. In fact, there is no public run shelter. I would not risk my nieces life on any recommendation from anyone here. 

I know that this is not popular, but I wouldn't spend the money to bring in an animal behaviorist to test this dog. 3 bites to different body parts and not stopping, had to be pulled away from a seven year old girl -- nope. That dog is not playing, it is not giving a warning, is likely to do this again, and that can't happen. The dog should be put down. I have an education, so I am not against people with educations, but we do not always need an education to know what is right in some situations. If one of these bites hit an artery on this child it could be dead now. Then there would be no question, the dog would be euthanized. The dog has the potential to kill a child. If you do not do what needs to be done in cases like this, pretty soon dogs over 40 pounds are banned everywhere.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hector3 said:


> Sorry, but I'm confused as to who you are replying to. First sentence is to me, but the rest is about OP's situation?
> 
> If my dog ever bit a child that needed stitches, yes I would put that dog down. The case with Ginger is not the same. The shelter chose to keep her alive then someone adopted her and then passed on to another home not because she bit any child and then she was passed on because I voluntarily took her in because I did not like the condition of care she was under. You do not know me and you do not know my dogs, so please don't assume I will end up the same way the vet tech did.


I was responding to you in the first sentence. I was staying on topic in the rest of the post. 

If the case with Ginger is not the same, then why compare it? Why say you would take on this dog, Brutus, if you didn't have children coming and going? My point is that people think they can manage a dog like this, and they are not always right. 

I think one should not have to wait for a dog to KILL someone to put it down, for a significant attack on a young child.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

selzer said:


> I don't know about Chicago Illinois, but in Ashtabula County, Ohio, there are no animal behaviorists on staff at the shelter. In fact, there is no public run shelter. I would not risk my nieces life on any recommendation from anyone here.
> 
> I know that this is not popular, but I wouldn't spend the money to bring in an animal behaviorist to test this dog. 3 bites to different body parts and not stopping, had to be pulled away from a seven year old girl -- nope. That dog is not playing, it is not giving a warning, is likely to do this again, and that can't happen. The dog should be put down. I have an education, so I am not against people with educations, but we do not always need an education to know what is right in some situations. If one of these bites hit an artery on this child it could be dead now. Then there would be no question, the dog would be euthanized. The dog has the potential to kill a child. If you do not do what needs to be done in cases like this, pretty soon dogs over 40 pounds are banned everywhere.


In your county, forget about animal behaviorists, you probably don't even have a humane shelter to take dogs to. That is sad. I would be working to change that fact if I lived where you live.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LifeofRiley said:


> In your county, forget about animal behaviorists, you probably don't even have a humane shelter to take dogs to. That is sad. I would be working to change that fact if I lived where you live.


We have a privately run shelter. That is run on donations. Has a board, and the dog-people in the area are not to enthusiastic about the politics there. Of course, I am not running a shelter, so I have not much to criticize. 

There are inside runs for dogs and cats. Small and always full. There are outdoor runs for dogs, totally outdoor, with dog houses. In NE Ohio. This winter has been brutal. I hope they did not have dogs out there all winter. 

They kill 100-200 dogs every now and again in one go due to parvo out breaks. It is sad. Big dogs generally go for $25. Puppies and smaller dogs are more expensive. But they ship a lot of the dogs under forty pounds to shelters in NY. Most GSDs are pegged for rescue only, whenever I have gone through there. 

Usually predominenty pits and pit mixes, and four or five shepherds -- all on hold for rescues. 

Local vets do pro-bono work there. 

It is pretty sad, but, we are a terribly depressed area. We have high unemployment, and no good paying jobs here any more. The city is awful up there, people OD'ing on Heroine, and we are Meth Lab Central. The only way to push for more for dogs would be to tax the people more. Higher taxes would make it even more difficult to lure businesses here and try to pick things up. So no, I am not going to get on any bandwagon to get a bigger, better, shelter. 

Now, our local training club -- in the next county, puts on benefits/shows for the local shelters in NE Ohio, and drives for supplies and food. Individuals donate blankets and bleach and food. Shelter staff do list the dogs on petfinder. And they put on some of their own benefits. 

Furthermore, there have been bans on breeds here, pitbulls, in the city, and they have had to be careful how to adopt them out, but there have also been siezures of large numbers of pits. So they have their problems.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

selzer said:


> I was responding to you in the first sentence. I was staying on topic in the rest of the post.
> 
> If the case with Ginger is not the same, then why compare it? Why say you would take on this dog, Brutus, if you didn't have children coming and going? My point is that people think they can manage a dog like this, and they are not always right.
> 
> I think one should not have to wait for a dog to KILL someone to put it down, for a significant attack on a young child.


 I don't have kids, but I do have kids that come to my house often. These are kids that are related to the previous owners (7 kids). Everyone (all the parents) know everything about this dog. There are no surprises. Yes this is a significant attack, but my point is there are people out there that are willing to take dogs like this. I really don't want to go on and on about this. My point is there are people out there that are willing to work and take a dog like this.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

LifeofRiley said:


> I fostered a dog that was deemed aggressive. He was the best dog I have ever fostered. Amazing, actually. So, rescue evaluations are useful and should be taken seriously before putting a dog to sleep. Every dog should be evaluated individually by people who know what they are looking at before a PTS recommendation is made.


Yes. As in I agree with the post I quoted.

I am amazed at the pundents on the internet who are so very certain that an individual dog should be put down based on what they read. It seems worse this spring than it has been in a long while. I am going to attribute people deciding their opinion is unfailable to the long brutal winter. And have one more reason to wish the midwest and east will soon have an end to it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe it is because I read through the synopsis of all the deaths due to dogs in 2013, and how many of them had a history like this dog. People are willing to take on such a dog, and then such a dog who has already demonstrated that it will do damage to a non-threat, gets the opportunity to prove it once again. The one lady fought to get her dog back. It then killed her. 

And maybe it is because I have a couple of 7 year old nieces that I have been caring for at least once a week for 5 years. I know them inside and out. And so, I have a pretty good point of reference for what seven years old looks like, acts like, is responsible for. 

A dog that does that to a seven year old is not right. And until these dogs are simply euthanized, I refuse to believe that rescues and shelters are hurting with some over-population. Sorry. This dog is totally dangerous and doesn't have a home. Put it down and find a home for a dog that WILL pass a temperament evaluation and DOES NOT have a history of MAULING small children. Put your resources into these dogs that for no other reason than there not being enough space are put down. I just do not understand the thinking here. I'm too thick i guess. 

I was watching an episode of animal cops where they brought in a pair of Rottweilers. The one was aggressive and bit the shelter worker. He felt it was his fault. And brought in a trainer and they spent all kinds of resources on this dog. It bit again. More resources. At the end of the program they said it attacked again and they had to put it down. Well, just great. How many dogs could they have saved that this dog took time and space and training resources away from?

And even if you feel that the dog is rehabilitated -- like that Cesar-wannabe across the pond whose rehabilitated rottweiler 'service dog' attacked a little girl in a mall. 

There is a huge difference between a bite and an attack. A bite I will generally give a dog the benefit of the doubt over. But repeated biting and not stopping is something that I can't understand wasting the time, space, and money on when everyone claims there are so many dogs out there snuffing it just because there is no room in the shelters. If that is no longer the case, than I still think it is a crappy waste of resources. Help people do low-cost spay/neuters, or help people afford veterinary care for their pets rather than signing them over for care. There is so much need of resources, and so few resources that putting in more than the cost of humane euthanasia into a homeless child-biter is unthinkable.

If the owners of the dog wanted to try training and management and a behaviorist, I would understand it. I would. No one wants to feel like they failed a dog. They want to try everything before giving up. I get that. 

This dog doesn't have a home! It has a rescue willing to try and find it a home. How can you be 100% certain that you are matching this dog up with the responsibility and commitment that it will not cause even more damage to the breed itself. 

How many other dogs could have been helped, except that someone's ego wants to believe they can fix them all. It is disgusting.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> Maybe it is because I read through the synopsis of all the deaths due to dogs in 2013, and how many of them had a history like this dog. People are willing to take on such a dog, and then such a dog who has already demonstrated that it will do damage to a non-threat, gets the opportunity to prove it once again. The one lady fought to get her dog back. It then killed her.
> 
> And maybe it is because I have a couple of 7 year old nieces that I have been caring for at least once a week for 5 years. I know them inside and out. And so, I have a pretty good point of reference for what seven years old looks like, acts like, is responsible for.
> 
> ...


That's all that needs to be said. It sums up everything. You can try to rehab a dog but when the right trigger happens, s/he snaps again but then the rescuer will be to blame.
So again, where is the OP?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

I keep reading this thread, and honestly I can't understand the thinking and/or attempt of saving this dog. The dog didn't give a warning bite. He bit once, twice, then went in for a full bite. He released ONLY after the owner intervened. How much further did this dog intend to take this attack? Instead of taking responsibility, the owner instead passes the problem on.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

its because people cant differentiate between a temperament problem and a situational problem
or dont want do
thinking they can save them all 
the pics on that facebook page before they pulled all pics
told the story 
the dog is a nervebag and an accident waiting to happen

hector that dog will always be a bite risk 
of course there is always some bleeding heart that wants to save them all
its ego or sheer idiocy but whatever i guess


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