# American Show Line GSD???



## HarleyTheGSD

I don't mean to disrespect anyone here who has an ASGSD, I'm sure your dogs are lovely, but what is going on with the structure? And as for temperament, they do have a tendency of having weak or soft temperaments. (not saying all of them do) I recently saw an ASGSD that was walking on it's hocks. Even if it doesn't hurt the dog (I don't know if it does or doesn't), that just seems un-natural. (I'm sure not all ASGSDs are this extreme, but it seems to be typical.)
In my personal opinion, Americans have ruined the GSD. Anyone is welcome to disagree or agree, and maybe shed some more light on the subject. 
Once again, I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, I just want to know what is really going on with the American show line GSD.


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## Lucy Dog

Just like in any line, there are extremes. There's good breeders and bad breeders. There are good show line dogs and there are bad show line dogs. There are good working line dogs and there's bad working lines dogs. 

This has actually been discussed plenty of times before in multiple threads over the years. Most people here are pretty pro working line, so I'm sure you're not going to get too many arguments.


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## LARHAGE

Like Paul said, there are good and bad dogs in EVERY line, people have bred for extremes in all of them, I personally know a few ASLGD's that are beautiful, great temperaments and an asset to the breed, again, like there are from ALL lines.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> Just like in any line, there are extremes. There's good breeders and bad breeders. There are good show line dogs and there are bad show line dogs. There are good working line dogs and there's bad working lines dogs.
> 
> This has actually been discussed plenty of times before in multiple threads over the years. Most people here are pretty pro working line, so I'm sure you're not going to get too many arguments.


 I understand. But would a dog walking on it's hocks be considered a fault? I would certainly think so.


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## HarleyTheGSD

LARHAGE said:


> Like Paul said, there are good and bad dogs in EVERY line, people have bred for extremes in all of them, I personally know a few ASLGD's that are beautiful, great temperaments and an asset to the breed, again, like there are from ALL lines.


 I see. It's like the Germans with their show line GSDs. They tend to have an extreme roached back. But I have seen some GSL GSDs with only a slight, natural looking slope.


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## qbchottu

Agree with Lucy Dog. This isn't much of a fair argument because this board is largely biased in favor of working dogs. If you want some opinions from ASL enthusiasts, breeders and competitors, I think you would have more luck getting answers in an ASL focused forum. 

I think Daphne aka "Andaka" competes in the AKC ring and might be able to help you with your question. 

"Americans have ruined the GSD" <-oh boy... opcorn:


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## LARHAGE

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I see. It's like the Germans with their show line GSDs. They tend to have an extreme roached back. But I have seen some GSL GSDs with only a slight, natural looking slope.


 
Exactly, and like the working dogs and their extreme over the top drive.


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## Lucy Dog

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I understand. But would a dog walking on it's hocks be considered a fault? I would certainly think so.


Do all ASL's walk on their hocks?

We had a member here (paddyD) who had an ASL dog that wasn't like you're describing. Straight and level back... Wasn't walking on her hocks. She looked like a very well built ASL.


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## HarleyTheGSD

qbchottu said:


> Agree with Lucy Dog. This isn't much of a fair argument because this board is largely biased in favor of working dogs. If you want some opinions from ASL enthusiasts, breeders and competitors, I think you would have more luck getting answers in an ASL focused forum.
> 
> I think Daphne aka "Andaka" competes in the AKC ring and might be able to help you with your question.
> 
> "Americans have ruined the GSD" <-oh boy... opcorn:


I am also in favor of working dogs, I was just curious what owners of ASL GSDs would reply to my post, how they would defend these lines. 
I know, it sounds bad and rude, but that's just how I see it.  Once again, my opinion.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> Do all ASL's walk on their hocks?
> 
> We had a member here (paddyD) who had an ASL dog that wasn't like you're describing. Straight and level back... Wasn't walking on her hocks. She looked like a very well built ASL.


 Okay, that answers my question. I know that not ALL ASLs walk on their hocks, I just see it more often than the dogs not walking on their hocks. I understand that there are ASLs that have great, strong structure with no extreme rear angulation.


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## Shade

Lucy Dog said:


> Just like in any line, there are extremes. There's good breeders and bad breeders. There are good show line dogs and there are bad show line dogs. There are good working line dogs and there's bad working lines dogs.
> 
> This has actually been discussed plenty of times before in multiple threads over the years. Most people here are pretty pro working line, so I'm sure you're not going to get too many arguments.


:thumbup: 

I adore my WL but even I'm sick of all the bashing of SL. Each dog is slightly different and I agree that PaddyD's had a especially straight back, just as some WL have sloped or roached backs

Just don't go to those breeders, simple and problem solved


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## qbchottu

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I am also in favor of working dogs, I was just curious what owners of ASL GSDs would reply to my post, how they would defend these lines.
> I know, it sounds bad and rude, but that's just how I see it.  Once again, my opinion.


Well, to me it _sounds_ like an incendiary statement and questions that _probably_ won't be fairly answered in working line skewed board. Like I said, for a fairer discussion and genuine answers to your question, I bet you'd have more luck on a AKC/ASL knowledgeable forum. Of course, if this thread is just to make negative remarks about ASL...then carry on


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## Freestep

It *is* shocking, if you haven't seen it before, to go to an AKC show and see the GSDs slinking around the conformation ring on their hocks, wobbling when they try to stand still, and shying away from the judge.

And things aren't as bad as they used to be. I remember going to shows in the late 80's/early 90's and being floored by the poor beasts I saw passing for GSDs. Narrow headed, sharp-shy, shivering, wobbling, hock-walking charicatures of a German Shepherd Dog. At the time I had a GSDx puppy, and I remember thinking, thank god I didn't get a show line puppy, if this is what they turn out to be.

Things have improved. There are still extreme dogs, but it appears the pendulum is swinging back toward moderation. Heads are better, secondary sex characteristics are better, temperaments are better. I still am not a fan of ASLs, but if I found one that had proper GSD temperament and conformation, I wouldn't hold his bloodline against him!


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## HarleyTheGSD

qbchottu said:


> Well, to me it _sounds_ like an incendiary statement and questions that _probably_ won't be fairly answered in working line skewed board. Like I said, for a fairer discussion and genuine answers to your question, I bet you'd have more luck on a AKC/ASL knowledgeable forum. Of course, if this thread is just to make negative remarks about ASL...then carry on


 I will do that. Oh no! I hope I haven't offended anybody, I was just sharing my opinion and wanted others to share their opinions, maybe even change my mind on the whole thing. I do believe though, that the ASL GSD isn't what Stephanitz would have bred for. He wanted to keep the German Shepherd a working dog, and I completely agree.


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## Andaka

Sorry I missed out on all of the fun. My ASL dog and i were at class doing agility and obedience. So, what was your question again?


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## qbchottu

Andaka said:


> Sorry I missed out on all of the fun. My ASL dog and i were at class doing agility and obedience. So, what was your question again?


:thumbup:


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## GSDAlphaMom

Andaka said:


> Sorry I missed out on all of the fun. My ASL dog and i were at class doing agility and obedience. So, what was your question again?


 
Love it!


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## HarleyTheGSD

Andaka said:


> Sorry I missed out on all of the fun. My ASL dog and i were at class doing agility and obedience. So, what was your question again?


Is your dog as extreme as I mentioned in my first post? Even if it is, I'm sure it's still possible for it to do agility/obediance. Some ASLs are better than others, like I admitted in earlier posts. And I don't know enough about yours to judge. It may be fantastic! But there are still many that are not so good. I don't think hocks on the ground while gaiting or stacking is very good, neither is a weak temperament. But NOT ALL are like this, I know.


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## GSDGunner

Shade said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I adore my WL but even I'm sick of all the bashing of SL. Each dog is slightly different and I agree that PaddyD's had a especially straight back, just as some WL have sloped or roached backs


PaddyD's Abby and my Gunner share many dogs in their pedigrees. My ASL is straight backed and doesn't walk on his hocks. 
I hate that all/most ASL's are lumped into the same category. Why do threads like this even have to exist? These threads have been hashed to death. All it accomplishes is making people/me who own ASL's feel unworthy to be here.

FTR, my ASL:


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## JakodaCD OA

daphne, you crack me up woman )

Brittany maybe Daphne would share some pics of her ASL dogs who are not only beautiful but do alot of other sports as well..(altho if you do a search I'm sure you'll see some of her dogs pics posted in other threads)

Linda, Gunnar is a handsome dude)

And yes, I get sick of hearing about "hock" walking ASL dogs. Tho it can make me sometimes cringe when I see an extreme one, it is what it is, and there are MANY that do not fit into that category.


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## Shade

GSDGunner said:


> PaddyD's Abby and my Gunner share many dogs in their pedigrees. My ASL is straight backed and doesn't walk on his hocks.
> I hate that all/most ASL's are lumped into the same category. Why do threads like this even have to exist? *These threads have been hashed to death. All it accomplishes is making people/me who own ASL's feel unworthy to be here.*
> 
> FTR, my ASL:



Not *ever* should any dog owner feel slammed by any others, regardless of whether they are WL or SL, BYB or registered, spayed/neutered or intact, or regardless of colouring

The fact is we are all dog lovers first, otherwise none of us would own a dog! Sure we talk and fight passionately but I think we sometimes forget with writing our opinion that there's another human reading it that may be offended or upset

BTW Gunner is very stunning


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## qbchottu

GSDGunner said:


> I hate that all/most ASL's are lumped into the same category. Why do threads like this even have to exist? These threads have been hashed to death. All it accomplishes is making people/me who own ASL's feel unworthy to be here.


Very well said. The whole premise of these threads is unfair and unbalanced.


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## HarleyTheGSD

GSDGunner said:


> PaddyD's Abby and my Gunner share many dogs in their pedigrees. My ASL is straight backed and doesn't walk on his hocks.
> I hate that all/most ASL's are lumped into the same category. Why do threads like this even have to exist? These threads have been hashed to death. All it accomplishes is making people/me who own ASL's feel unworthy to be here.
> 
> FTR, my ASL:


 That is a gorgeous Shepherd! No, he is not walking on his hocks, and he seems to be very strong, no extreme angulation. But, there are still badly bred ASL dogs out there. Lots of them, and many DO walk on their hocks. I shouldn't judge the ASL Shepherd as a whole, which is what I did, but I now see that there are well bred ASLs as well.


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## dogfaeries

As an owner of two lovely ASL dogs that are currently being shown in the AKC conformation ring, I can easily get my panties in a bunch over threads like this.  

However, I'm just going state for the record that my girls aren't hock-walking, spooky freaks either.


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## LARHAGE

GSDGunner said:


> PaddyD's Abby and my Gunner share many dogs in their pedigrees. My ASL is straight backed and doesn't walk on his hocks.
> I hate that all/most ASL's are lumped into the same category. Why do threads like this even have to exist? These threads have been hashed to death. All it accomplishes is making people/me who own ASL's feel unworthy to be here.
> 
> FTR, my ASL:


 
I think your boy is beautiful, I'm sure he's not too crippled to run alongside my horse on a trail ride.


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## HarleyTheGSD

I'm VERY sorry to anyone I offended, it was very wrong of me to judge the ASL GSD as a whole. I deserve any angry comments. I understand there are badly bred ASLs and well bred ASLs. I am still not a fan of the ASL, but I definately see that they can be fantastic dogs. I have an American bred GSD (not showline, but most American bred dogs have showline in their blood), and he is FA with a weak temperament. This is mostly due to bad breeding and not socializing within the first 4 months he was with the breeder. Once again, I am terribly sorry.


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## HarleyTheGSD

dogfaeries said:


> As an owner of two lovely ASL dogs that are currently being shown in the AKC conformation ring, I can easily get my panties in a bunch over threads like this.
> 
> However, I'm just going state for the record that my girls aren't hock-walking, spooky freaks either.


 I'm sure they're not. I'm sorry I have judged all ASLs as a whole, yours are probably lovely, along with many others on the forum.


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## warpwr

Miss Molly is an ASL. From the only GSD breeder to ever win best in show at Westminster actually. ( http://covy-tuckerhill.com/manhattan )
She doesn't walk on her hocks, can jump into my truck with the tailgate up, and can run down almost anything at the park with her blinding speed.
She is protective, intelligent and a good guard dog at home.
She likes children, kittens and old men (me).
She never protects her food or toys from other dogs, the cats or humans.
She doesn't ever fight other dogs.
And.. she has never even been to a dog show.

She is exactly what we wanted with her temperament and at the least, just as good a dog as our last working line GSD.


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## Nikitta

Jasira is my first working line GSD. I had all american breds before and none of mine walked on their hocks. They were well formed well mannered german shepherds. From what I have seen german breds are more high drive and at least my girl Jas is more stubborn. She is my problem child. Xerx is my good son but I need to remind myself that the last time I had a puppy was a long time ago. These 2 are 4months and 1 year old. I can't compair them to mature well trained dogs.


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## HarleyTheGSD

warpwr said:


> Miss Molly is an ASL. From the only GSD breeder to ever win best in show at Westminster actually. ( Covy Tucker Hill German Shepherd Breeders - BIS Ch. Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan ROM OFA )
> She doesn't walk on her hocks, can jump into my truck with the tailgate up, and can run down almost anything at the park with her blinding speed.
> She is protective, intelligent and a good guard dog at home.
> She likes children, kittens and old men (me).
> She never protects her food or toys from other dogs, the cats or humans.
> She doesn't ever fight other dogs.
> And.. she has never even been to a dog show.
> 
> She is exactly what we wanted with her temperament and at the least, just as good a dog as our last working line GSD.


 This also shows me how wrong I was to judge. Your ASL is beautiful.


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## Andaka

Well, who should we do first?

How about Multi Ch. Andaka-Zederland's Keno UD HSAs OA (and lots of other titles from many organiations)


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## Andaka

And now Am/Can Ch (and group winner) Andaka-Zederland's U R It CD RAE2.


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## LARHAGE

Brittany, I commend you for your open mind, you have seen first hand how generalizations are always blown out of proportion, it takes a very big person to admit they made a mistake, there is nothing wrong with people preferring other types of dogs to others, but the wrong thing is lumping all dogs into a neat little category, the problem on this board is those of us with showlines, both American and German are always on the short end of the criticism stick making us defensive, ALL German Shepherds of every line have dogs that are extreme examples, I've seen just as many poor breed representatives in Working lines as I have Showlines, no one type is the be all end all, we all have our preferences and proudly stand by them.


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## Andaka

And lets not forget the girls.

Ch. Andaka-Zederland's This Kiss RE HSAs

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Andaka/Kizzy/Kizzystackcrop.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Andaka/Kizzy/scan0009.jpg










The young lady showing her is the niece of a friend of mine. She is 17 in those pictures and also handled Kizzy to 2 Best Junior Handler awards. Do you think I would let a teenager show a dog that had a bad temperament???


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## HarleyTheGSD

LARHAGE said:


> Brittany, I commend you for your open mind, you have seen first hand how generalizations are always blown out of proportion, it takes a very big person to admit they made a mistake, there is nothing wrong with people preferring other types of dogs to others, but the wrong thing is lumping all dogs into a neat little category, the problem on this board is those of us with showlines, both American and German are always on the short end of the criticism stick making us defensive, ALL German Shepherds of every line have dogs that are extreme examples, I've seen just as many poor breed representatives in Working lines as I have Showlines, no one type is the be all end all, we all have our preferences and proudly stand by them.


Thank you, and I do realize that I made a HUGE mistake. I have bashed many great people and their fantastic ASL dogs wrongfully. There are extremes of ASLs, but I put them and well bred ASLs into the same category. I don't think I'll be judging something I can't fully understand, or haven't seen the full picture of, again.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Andaka said:


> And lets not forget the girls.
> 
> Ch. Andaka-Zederland's This Kiss RE HSAs
> 
> http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Andaka/Kizzy/Kizzystackcrop.jpg[IMG]
> 
> [IMG]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Andaka/Kizzy/scan0009.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The young lady showing her is the niece of a friend of mine. She is 17 in those pictures and also handled Kizzy to 2 Best Junior Handler awards. Do you think I would let a teenager show a dog that had a bad temperament???


 All the dogs you have posted pictures of are truly gorgeous, and they obviously have solid temperaments. I don't think you, or anybody who cares, would have a teenager/child handle or show a dog with a bad temperament. Thank you for making me understand the truth about ASL GSDs.


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## GSDAlphaMom

And to prove the point a little further with another line...you mentioned the german showlines have roached backs. I have 5 gsl's, none with a roach back, but take a look at this working line dog.....


EXCELLENT Kery Kamos Durabo - German Shepherd Dog


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## doggiedad

go to dog shows and visit some breeders. you may change
your mind/opinon.


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## GSDGunner

LARHAGE said:


> Brittany, I commend you for your open mind, you have seen first hand how generalizations are always blown out of proportion, it takes a very big person to admit they made a mistake, there is nothing wrong with people preferring other types of dogs to others, but the wrong thing is lumping all dogs into a neat little category, the problem on this board is those of us with showlines, both American and German are always on the short end of the criticism stick making us defensive, ALL German Shepherds of every line have dogs that are extreme examples, I've seen just as many poor breed representatives in Working lines as I have Showlines, no one type is the be all end all, we all have our preferences and proudly stand by them.


Very well said! :thumbup:
Brittany, I'm happy that you are so open minded and can see what I/we were trying to say. I've seen ASL's bashed so much and it's disheartening sometimes. And then I look over at Gunner and :shrug::thinking:. He's such a well bred ASL and I'm thankful for that. 
There are poorly bred GSD's in all lines. I just think the masses have chosen to point at the ASL's the most since they're not as well respected in the GSD world. 
I'll put my ASL up against any line, any day. 

And thanks for the nice compliments on my boy. It's nice to hear sometimes.


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## HarleyTheGSD

GSDAlphaMom said:


> And to prove the point a little further with another line...you mentioned the german showlines have roached backs. I have 5 gsl's, none with a roach back, but take a look at this working line dog.....
> 
> 
> EXCELLENT Kery Kamos Durabo - German Shepherd Dog


 Not all do. There are GSLs with roached backs. But there are some that don't have one. I know an amazing GSL GSD with no roached back, has a very natural looking slope. I do see the point though. All lines have extremes, and seeing that WL with a roached back was terrible. Roached backs on GSLs are extremes. I understand now, thank you.


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## doggiedad

why is it terrible that a WL has a roach back? what's extreme about
a SL being roached?



HarleyTheGSD said:


> Not all do. There are GSLs with roached backs. But there are some that don't have one. I know an amazing GSL GSD with no roached back, has a very natural looking slope. I do see the point though.
> 
> >>>> All lines have extremes, and seeing that WL with a roached back was terrible. Roached backs on GSLs are extremes. I understand now, thank you.<<<<


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## GSDGunner

I didn't look back so I don't know if you said, but I'm wondering what lines Harley is from? I saw your pictures in your album and he's a handsome fella.


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## Freestep

qbchottu said:


> Very well said. The whole premise of these threads is unfair and unbalanced.


I don't think it's unbalanced at all! Lots of people chiming in on both sides. I think it's okay to have an opinion.


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## qbchottu

The premise of her question was unfair and unbalanced. It was a loaded question. Say for example she asked: I'm curious about ASL and would like to learn more about them. Does anyone show in AKC or own a ASL? What are your opinions on them? How do you think they compare to other lines? How do you feel their conformation plays into their activities? Etc. etc.

Nobody would have an issue with that. 
But she prefaced her question with a severely negative connotation and stance right off the bat. Hence immediately putting people on the defensive, polarizing the different lines and inciting an argument. This is how those threads *usually* go. This one is an exception because of the quick way that board members called her on her unfair bias. Also, OP's willingness to learn and keep an open mind helped this thread develop positively. A quick search through PDB forums will show how _most_ of these threads usually go...


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## HarleyTheGSD

GSDGunner said:


> I didn't look back so I don't know if you said, but I'm wondering what lines Harley is from? I saw your pictures in your album and he's a handsome fella.


 He is pretty much a back yard bred GSD. He isn't from any particular lines. I have heard that all American bred GSDs have ASL in them, but I'm not sure if it's true. Thanks by the way!


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## dogfaeries

Here, I thought I'd toss in a photo of one of my ASLs...


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## Lucy Dog

HarleyTheGSD said:


> He is pretty much a back yard bred GSD. He isn't from any particular lines. I have heard that all American bred GSDs have ASL in them, but I'm not sure if it's true. Thanks by the way!


Did you mean all American bred GSD's or all American "backyard bred" GSD's have ASL in them?

There are plenty of American bred GSD's from all types of lines. 

For the "backyard bred" dogs, a lot do have American lines. A nice way to put it and you'll hear it on here from time to time is "American pet lines". It's just a nice way of saying random American lines probably from a backyard breeder. It's basically just a pedigree full of pets which is different than you'll see from a reputable ASL breeder.

I'm sure there are plenty of backyard bred dogs from all types of lines though. It's not just an American line thing.


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## HarleyTheGSD

doggiedad said:


> why is it terrible that a WL has a roach back? what's extreme about
> a SL being roached?


 Here are some discussions about it:
What does a straight back gsd and roach back dog look like - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog
About German Shepherd Dog : Description of GSD Neck As Per Breed Standard
Roach back - page 1 - German Shepherd Dog

Sorry, some of these may seem a little too extreme.


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## HarleyTheGSD

dogfaeries said:


> Here, I thought I'd toss in a photo of one of my ASLs...


 Your ASL Shepherd is very beautiful also.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> Did you mean all American bred GSD's or all American "backyard bred" GSD's have ASL in them?
> 
> There are plenty of American bred GSD's from all types of lines.
> 
> For the "backyard bred" dogs, a lot do have American lines. A nice way to put it and you'll hear it on here from time to time is "American pet lines". It's just a nice way of saying random American lines probably from a backyard breeder. It's basically just a pedigree full of pets which is different than you'll see from a reputable ASL breeder.
> 
> I'm sure there are plenty of backyard bred dogs from all types of lines though. It's not just an American line thing.


 I meant "all American back yard bred GSDs have ASL in them." I like the term "American pet lines", it does sound better, and it's easier to say than what I said earlier. I guess I'll never know what lines he's from though, his breeder might not even know.


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## Lucy Dog

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I guess I'll never know what lines he's from though, his breeder might not even know.


Based on appearance, he more than likely has a lot of American lines.


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## qbchottu

HarleyTheGSD: What is your definition of the term roach back?


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## martemchik

Lol...that's the first thing I thought of when I opened up the thread. "Isn't Harley an ASL." I mean, there might be some German lines in there, but they're plenty back to give such a light pigment on the tan.

I think the issue at hand is that too many people, sit on the computer, and read biased articles and biased forum threads about these topics. They don't go out and see the dogs. I'm at a club that's 95% ASL, and while I wouldn't have one and don't think that there is a single ASL at my club that has anywhere near the drive my dog does, there are very few that are absolutely horrible examples of the breed. They don't walk on their hocks (close but not quite), they aren't extremely sloped, and they have pretty good temperaments. It might not be up to the standards of the working line folks, but they aren't what you read about in the articles.


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## Xeph

My ASL. Mirada









Absolutely naked here









We're training in IPO


















And this girl tracks with a mad wicked intensity!


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## HarleyTheGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> Based on appearance, he more than likely has a lot of American lines.


 That's what I was thinking.


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## HarleyTheGSD

qbchottu said:


> HarleyTheGSD: What is your definition of the term roach back?


MY definition, without looking at anything, would be an arched back. Like a banana shape. Hmm. The actual definition is most likely much more technical, and therefore, it would be difficult to tell if a dog really does have a roached back. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe many dogs that I have seen with a "roached back" really aren't roached.  Sorry if I'm wrong, but please help me understand.

Does this dog have a roached back?


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## HarleyTheGSD

Xeph said:


> My ASL. Mirada
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Absolutely naked here
> 
> 
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> 
> We're training in IPO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> And this girl tracks with a mad wicked intensity!


 She is very pretty! And that's fantastic that both of you are training in IPO. She is looking very good out there on the field.


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## HarleyTheGSD

martemchik said:


> Lol...that's the first thing I thought of when I opened up the thread. "Isn't Harley an ASL." I mean, there might be some German lines in there, but they're plenty back to give such a light pigment on the tan.
> 
> I think the issue at hand is that too many people, sit on the computer, and read biased articles and biased forum threads about these topics. They don't go out and see the dogs. I'm at a club that's 95% ASL, and while I wouldn't have one and don't think that there is a single ASL at my club that has anywhere near the drive my dog does, there are very few that are absolutely horrible examples of the breed. They don't walk on their hocks (close but not quite), they aren't extremely sloped, and they have pretty good temperaments. It might not be up to the standards of the working line folks, but they aren't what you read about in the articles.


Yes, I'm pretty sure that Harley has ASL in him. Like you said, his tan is very light and he has even a paler tan underneath. What I also did that was wrong, was take my own experience with my "American pet line" and reflect it on ASLs. Harley isn't even full ASL so that was very wrong. And his breeder didn't socialize him the first 4 months, so that had a tremendous impact (I think genetics play a part too). Harley has a very weak, soft temperament. (but I don't care, I love him to death. Wouldn't trade him for the best working dog on the planet.) My expectations of the GSD were lowered, but I know now that this isn't typical, and him not being socialized within those first 4 months was a major factor to his current behavior. ASLs are not like the articles say they are, not all of them. There are still many very well bred ASLs that have the temperament of a real GSD.


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## phgsd

Although this dog's topline is unappealing, it is not roached.










His issue is that his croup is extremely steep and so it gives the illusion of a roached back. The rest of his back is only slightly sloping which is desirable - until you hit the croup. He is also slightly overstacked so it may be making his croup look even steeper than it really is.

This dog does have an extremely roached back - I think one of the worst I've seen. The withers should be the highest point on the topline, but this dog's back arches well above the withers.


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## robk

Many dogs looked roached because of the way the are stacked. For some reason the roached looking stack is popular among some show people in Europe and they will present their dogs in a roached looking position.


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## HarleyTheGSD

phgsd said:


> Although this dog's topline is unappealing, it is not roached.
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 Ahh, I see the difference. Thanks. I've read different things about roached backs, so I was wondering what the TRUTH is: Does a roached back affect a dogs work ability? I've read in some places that it does and in others that it doesn't.


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## HarleyTheGSD

robk said:


> Many dogs looked roached because of the way the are stacked. For some reason the roached looking stack is popular among some show people in Europe and they will present their dogs in a roached looking position.


 Hmm, that's odd. I, personally, like mild sloping of the topline, but nothing extreme.


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## Freestep

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Does a roached back affect a dogs work ability? I've read in some places that it does and in others that it doesn't.


I've heard that it doesn't affect the dog in any negative ways, but looking at the dog, I have a hard time believing that. It just looks uncomfortable. Like the dog is straining to poo.

In architecture, the arch is supposed to be the strongest support, but I don't know if that translates to dogs.


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## martemchik

Actually...the more angulated dogs are structurally better for work. It actually takes them less effort to move depending on where the angulation comes from and the angles in the back legs. The reason the show line dogs aren't as good for work has nothing to do with structure but everything to do with drive. They just don't have it inside of them to work as long as a working line. There is less energy, less want, and its harder to train a dog like that to do the same work a working line can. Again, most of this is generalizations but in reality, if you watch a show line move without bias, they use less energy in their trot than a working line dog with a straight back.

I'm not saying its good when they are extremely angulated or roached, and walking on their hocks, but the more moderate ones are sometimes physically better built than working lines.


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## Rico's Daddy

Xeph said:


> My ASL. Mirada
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## Good_Karma

I was going to stay out of this thread, but if people are showing off their ASLs, I have to jump in. 

Niko is a Peakes Brook dog, both his parents are titled in conformation.





































He has LOTS of drive, IMHO. He has two loves in life (after his pack): food and his ball. This photo shows some of his intensity. He is also extremely into nose work.












Niko is a great athlete. He runs over 40 miles a week. I run 8 miles a day with him, 5 days a week. Then in the afternoon my husband will take him out again for a two or three mile run. I think he has a flawless gait.










He has also done some herding.










He loves to give kisses.



















He can also settle down nicely in the house.










And he gets mad when people bash American Show Lines.


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## Xeph

> The reason the show line dogs aren't as good for work has nothing to do with structure but everything to do with drive.


I disagree, in part. Yes, lack of drive is a HUGE issue, but there are DEFINITELY dogs out there that are far too angulated to do real work. Mirada (No N!) is at the very edge of what I want for rear. I don't want any more than what she's got, because functionality DOES start going out the window.

Structurally, for me, Mirada's biggest fault is her ligamentation. They should be much tighter.

ETA:


> I'm not saying its good when they are extremely angulated or roached, and walking on their hocks, but the more moderate ones are sometimes physically better built than working lines.


Didn't see this part of your post! I absolutely agree. My WL puppy is very nicely put together, but I'll admit, I would like a better front and better turn of stifle on him.


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## Freestep

Good_Karma said:


> He has also done some herding.


Love it!

He's a very handsome dog, and this is the direction I would like to see ASLs go. Would you mind posting his pedigree?


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## Good_Karma

Freestep said:


> Love it!
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> He's a very handsome dog, and this is the direction I would like to see ASLs go. Would you mind posting his pedigree?



Thanks, I agree!

Sure, here is his sire's (CH Woodside Jubilate Eye of the Tyger CGC TC OFA H/E/C/CERF vWD neg, DM clear & MDR1 n/n) pedigree










And his mom's (CH Darby-Dan's Queen of Hearts OFA H/E/C/CERF) pedigree:


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## GSDGunner

Good_Karma said:


> Thanks, I agree!
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Niko and Gunner are related.  There have several dogs in common.


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## Good_Karma

Linda that is very cool!


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## Freestep

Interesting pedigree; so the breeder has used German dogs in this show line. Who is the breeder?


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## HarleyTheGSD

Freestep said:


> I have a hard time believing that. It just looks uncomfortable. Like the dog is straining to poo.


I do also. It does! But hey, what would I know, maybe it's the most comfortable thing in the world.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Good_Karma said:


> I was going to stay out of this thread, but if people are showing off their ASLs, I have to jump in.
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 He is very handsome, I love his rich color! 
I'm sure he does, I'm glad that everyone who posted changed my opinion on ASLs.


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## Good_Karma

Freestep said:


> Interesting pedigree; so the breeder has used German dogs in this show line. Who is the breeder?


Peakes Brook German Shepherds at Peakesbrook, AKC German Shepherd Puppies, New York German Shepherd Breeder, AKC German Shepherds for sale.

Thanks Brittany.


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## Freestep

Good_Karma said:


> Peakes Brook German Shepherds at Peakesbrook, AKC German Shepherd Puppies, New York German Shepherd Breeder, AKC German Shepherds for sale.


I like the look of their dogs, moderately angulated and substantial. 










This bitch reminds me of what AKC champions *used* to look like. I am not an expert in conformation, but look at the muscle tone!


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## gsdheeler

This breeder used some of Darby Dan lines (JIM) My male's sire is out of him, the rest is ASL. I know several people with ASL dogs who brought Jim into their breeding program.
I like the German lines with the ASL dogs. They can work but they are not bouncing off the walls, I'm too old for that crap.


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## ASL GSD Breeder Seeker

GSDGunner said:


> PaddyD's Abby and my Gunner share many dogs in their pedigrees. My ASL is straight backed and doesn't walk on his hocks.
> I hate that all/most ASL's are lumped into the same category. Why do threads like this even have to exist? These threads have been hashed to death. All it accomplishes is making people/me who own ASL's feel unworthy to be here.
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> FTR, my ASL:


Where did you find your dog? If from a breeder can you tell me the name? If from a shelter please tell me the name 🙏😅


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## dogma13

This thread is from 2012.If you read from the beginning there are some breeders listed along with pedigrees to research. Most of the posters are no longer active here.


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## ASL GSD Breeder Seeker

> GSDGunner said:
> PaddyD's Abby and my Gunner share many dogs in their pedigrees. My ASL is straight backed and doesn't walk on his hocks.
> I hate that all/most ASL's are lumped into the same category. Why do threads like this even have to exist? These threads have been hashed to death. All it accomplishes is making people/me who own ASL's feel unworthy to be here.
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Where did you find your dog? If from a breeder can you tell me the name? If from a shelter please tell me the name 🙏😅


dogma13 said:


> This thread is from 2012.If you read from the beginning there are some breeders listed along with pedigrees to research. Most of the posters are no longer active here.





dogma13 said:


> This thread is from 2012.If you read from the beginning there are some breeders listed along with pedigrees to research. Most of the posters are no longer active here.


Oh. My bad. Well still people can comment below ASL GSD breeders. Also can the website be secure please? I don't what my computer to catch a virus 😅


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