# At what point does euthanasia for aggression become appropriate?



## KristiM

I'm just curious to see what people's thoughts on this are. I have read a few times on this forum now where people have made the decision due to severe aggression. Where does one draw the line? Obviously this breed carries more aggression than most...but if it comes in high doses, without balance....


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## JakodaCD OA

First I have to say, I've never had a truly aggressive, "I'm gonna bite a human" dog. I've had fear biters, but even he, was the type, "you put your hand over the fence, you remove it, I'm going to nip you on the way out" ..

He was managed 24/7, never truly trained out of him, it was genetics pure and simple, 

However, if I ever had a dog that downright, went after a person or child for no reason and nailed them, ONCE if not serious, I would make sure it never happened again, Twice, the dog would be gone no matter who's failure it was, mine or the dogs.

I'd feel terrible, but I can not live with a dog with unpredicatable behavior like that


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## Stevenzachsmom

It depends very much on the type of aggression and the owners' situation. If the dog is DA, but is an only dog, with a fully fenced yard, that is easily managed. If the dog is aggressive towards kids, but the owner has no kids and can keep the dog safely contained - no problem. If the dog can be safely managed and owner is willing to manage the dog, the dog does not need to be PTS.

If the owner is unable or unwilling to manage the aggressive dog, does not want to work on improving the aggression, or doesn't want to keep the dog, it is probably best to put the dog to sleep. 

Here is an example of a dog I think should be put to sleep. Someone in my neighborhood recently adopted a pitbull from a pitbull rescue. The adopter was not warned that the dog was DA. On the first walk, the PB attacked a senior dog, going for the throat and causing $2000.00 worth of vet bills. The PB redirects to the handler and bites, when it cannot get to a dog. The rescue does not return calls. The adopter does not wish to keep or work with this dog. IMO, this dog should be put to sleep. There are many kids and dogs in my neighborhood. The risk of serious injury is too great.


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## Merciel

My personal opinions for when it might be appropriate to consider euthanizing a dog for aggression:

-- If the dog has seriously injured a person ("serious injury" to me means that the victim had to go to the hospital and/or get a significant number of stitches for the injury) under inappropriate circumstances (by which I mean that if one of my dogs bites a mugger who is trying to rob me, that is absolutely fine and dandy as far as I'm concerned).

-- If the dog has not yet seriously injured someone but the dog's aggression is getting progressively worse (for example, moving from "teeth on skin, no pressure" to puncture wounds) AND the owner cannot or will not manage the dog.

Some of these are gray areas where the dog _might_ be okay in other hands, but the owner cannot or will not relinquish the dog (and even if the owner _wants_ to hand the dog over to someone else, there is a very finite list of people and places willing to take on such dogs, and none of the good ones are cheap), and ultimately IMO the safety of the public overrides that dog's interests.

-- If the dog's aggression is rooted in other medical issues and those medical issues cannot be resolved. I include both physical illness and mental illness in this category. If a dog is in so much misery that his pain is coming out as aggression, it may be kindest just to let that dog go.


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## Diesel and Lace

I had rescued a chow that was about 9 months old about 8 years ago. We had to put him down, he was cujo. He was such a sweet adolescent but would turn on a dime and bite ANYONE. 

I was actually the first one he bit, trying to get him the crate. I brushed it off even though he broke the skin because we had only had him for a week or two. He bit me the second time when I was getting dressed for work one morning. Apparently he had been beat with hangers before because ANYONE who picked up a hanger was attacked! So I took the precautions to make sure he was not in the vicinity when hanging clothes or getting clothes out of closet. Then my neighbor (who had seen at least 50 times over several weeks) was sitting on my couch in the living room watching TV with us and I got up to go help in the kitchen, I heard a shriek and my neighbor was literally in my picture window with the dog biting at him trying to attack him for no reason. 

We started at that point talking about it. I consulted with a trainer in my neighborhood that I knew from walking my other dogs. He took the pup for 2 days brought it back and told me flat out the dog will ALWAYS be a bite risk there are so many triggers that we may never uncover them all. So we did what was best for everyone and we had him put to sleep. So sad I loved that little guy and so did my Samoyed...


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## gagsd

I have had a lot of fosters, rescues, dogs for training and dogs of my own.
Plenty had aggression or aggression issues.

ONE I decided to euthanize. A dog I took in as an adult. She had already killed a dog and another small animal, cat I think. And would go after children with the same "look." I worked with her for about 8 months. She had never bitten a child, but IMO only due to good management. I would not chance it with my daughter, and did not feel comfortable re-homing so took her in and held her head.


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## Shade

My parents bought a golden retriever puppy out of the classifieds years ago. She was apparently 8 weeks old and the last of the litter to leave, it was a litter bred between family members, apparently one sister had the female and the brother had the male, though we never met either parent. We stayed in the car as my parents went into the house. The puppy was cowering under the dining room table and had to be dragged out by the seller to give to my dad. My dad came out with the puppy in his arms and she became a member of the family. The vet estimated her age to be around 12 weeks rather than the 8 we were told but otherwise healthy

Right off the bat we noticed that she was very submissive; she would hide in the corner and pee if someone came to the door like a pizza delivery boy even if the person never even looked at her let alone touched. She was skittish and would jump at the slightest sound, but otherwise easily trained and bonded to our family. She never needed a leash; she hung out in the backyard with us no problems and never ran away.

As she got older she began turning from fear to fear aggression, rather than hide and pee in a corner she would snarl as she was backing up. She had one episode where she attacked my grandparent’s dog when it took a high value treat from her and refused to give it up. The attack resulted in a trip to the emergency room with surgery to install drains and stitch the bite wounds. We separated the dogs after that and she never had any problems with any animals, including two cats she lived with. Her issue was with humans outside of our immediate family. Even if they did nothing she could growl at them and she snapped with no contact at a few people.

My parents relegated her to a bedroom whenever people were over. One day we had a party at our house and someone let her out, she was weaving through the crowd loving the attention and treats people were offering her. One of my dad's coworkers was a huge animal fan and was excited to see her so he crouched down and called her from across the room. She looked at him and sprinted towards him with a big growl, he stood up quickly and my dad caught her just before she lunged for him. There was no provocation for the attack, she was scolded and put back away immediately.

After that attack my parents took her to the vet to see if there was something physically wrong with her, she was only 3 years old at the time. The vet was a young guy we had a good relationship with; she immediately started growling at him when he walked in the room. He ignored her completely as my parents corrected her and she cornered herself and gave him the stink eye even when he sat down on the floor and snarled whenever he talked or shifted. He shook his head and told my parents with her history of being unpredictable since the beginning the chances of them being able to help her was slim. After considering the life she would have to lead, with being either crated, muzzled, or separated for the rest of her life my parents made the hard decision to give her a few days at home being loved on then scheduled the appointment to euthanize her.

I will add that *never* did she ever show any signs of aggression towards my parents or myself or my siblings, but with anyone else she was unpredictable and they didn't want to have that risk hanging over her head or theirs. Young people, old, male, female, happy, angry, etc there was no pattern to her outburst. 

The last day was extremely hard, she was the picture of health and happiness as my parents took her away for the last car ride. I know now what they did was kind, releasing her from the demons we couldn't see but as a child it was hard to swallow the decision. 

Mental illness is just as bad as physical even though you can’t see it, just because a dog is physically healthy doesn’t mean there isn’t wires crossed someone in their brains which doesn’t allow them to find peace.


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## Jericfos

You may have seen my recent thread, my wife and i had to say goodbye to our dog a few days ago for this reason.

It was the hardest decision i've ever made. I don't think i can draw clear lines as far as what exactly would lead to the decision. I think you just know. 

When you've trained, and the dog listens to you and does everything you've trained him to do, and he's otherwise healthy, but he still will unpredictably attack someone without warning or provocation, that's a bad sign. My dog did that twice, as well as countless other smaller episodes that where i managed to prevent it. My house was already basically on lockdown already, but there was a slip up and i ended up in the ER for 6-7 hours sitting with a friend. 

It's so hard. I still feel like we made the right decision, though it's haunting me a bit.


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## KristiM

Ill have to look for your thread jericfos. I'm sorry for your loss. 

I was advised yesterday at a check up with havoc's neurologist to euthanize him. Aggression is far from the only factor with him but it is a big one. I don't know what to do. My husband seems to think that he's not dangerous, but I have seen that he is. Everyone else who knows me and knows the dog also think that euthanasia is my best option. Part of me feels like I have just had enough of managing his human (and dog) aggression and ALL of his terrible (one of them terminal) health conditions. I can't begin to explain how stressed I am about this dog....but I feel like a terrible person considering killing my buddy because I can't handle the stress anymore.....

Seems like most people agree that they would hinge euthanasia on hurting someone. When the vet asked me yesterday if I thought he was dangerous I said yes, his response was "so your just waiting for something bad to happen." Made me feel pretty irresponsible.


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## gagsd

I have a dog now who would absolutely hurt someone. But with that dog, I do not worry about children, and I feel confident in my management strategies.
He is also healthy.

Sometimes, we make the decision for us rather than the dog. Sometimes that is not a "wrong" decision.


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## Merciel

KristiM said:


> Seems like most people agree that they would hinge euthanasia on hurting someone.


I think it's more that once a dog _does_ hurt someone seriously, it becomes impossible to ignore that particular reality anymore. That is the one clear line that (almost) everyone can agree upon.

Apart from that one clear line, you get into some very painful and murky gray areas. It becomes easy to second-guess yourself and for other people to second-guess you too, even though they're not in your situation and don't really know you or your dog. That is much more difficult.


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## marbury

Although having no personal experience to share, I believe that dogs who are no longer able to be safely managed or dogs whose aggression is a byproduct of constant suffering (health issues, mental health issues) should be candidates for humane euthanasia.
Management can only go so far. When it becomes necessary to confine a dog to a crate or secure pen 24/7 because of the threat it presents to the owner or anyone in the vicinity it becomes cruel to do so. When aggression is caused by a constant, severe, never-ending anxiety I would imagine that being free of that daily torture would be kinder to a dog than imposing tighter and tighter restrictions on him or her and aggravating the anxiety behind the behavior. When a dog is suffering physical pain such that it can no longer appropriately relate to its caretakers I think most would agree that something has to be done. If medical intervention does not rectify the behavior, what choice is the owner left with? Continue to let the dog suffer?

I'm absolutely certain that actually _making _the decision (especially in the case of an otherwise-healthy pet) is agonizing and full of doubt/guilt/second-guessing. I know I would. I'd run over and over in my mind ways I could have made a difference; but at the end of the day not every dog is wired correctly, and all we can do as caretakers is give them every opportunity to be their best and have the benevolence to know when to set them free.


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## katdog5911

My son had to recently put his beloved pit down due to HA/DA issues. He had him from puppyhood and we never could figure out why this dog was the way he was. Must have been his genetic make-up. My son managed him for 7 years. The dog was happy with his life but it certainly was very stressful for my son's family. The aggressiveness started at about 6 months and got worse and worse. The dog bit multiple people, especially when he was younger, before my son got serious about managing him....but at the time there always seemed to be a reason for the bite...
Eventually the dog even wound up biting my daughter in law and my son. He was a ticking time bomb. With 2 young children, it was just too risky to keep the dog. 
A friend of mine that is involved in rescue said that some dogs just aren't meant to be part of the society we live in. Perhaps in a different time, in a different place....


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## Galathiel

I had a GSD that could be HA. She was fine with family, including extended family that she may only see every few months, but was not good with strangers at all. She didn't have any physical ailments, so we just managed her. It wasn't that big of a deal at the time. She didn't go places and didn't miss it. We place so much more emphasis nowadays on being able to take your dogs everywhere, but she was happy in her little world.

I don't think people were as stupid back then either. You left strange dogs alone!


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## wolfstraum

When you have a dog that is dangerous, and it becomes a life changing management struggle to keep people safe from the dog, I can easily justify an owner euthanizing a dog. If the dog has added issues of fear, or serious health issues on top of the aggression, I believe it is justifiable. It is sad and it is heart breaking. These dogs should NOT be passed off to someone else - that is shirking responsibility for the dog to whom the owner has made a commitment. Changing owners and environment are likely to exacerbate the dogs anxiety and aggression. The most humane thing to do with a dog with serious temperament issue is to euthanize the dog when it is a danger to others.

Lee


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## selzer

Kristi,

It is really a personal decision. No answer is right for every individual and every dog. It may be a lot easier to put a formula onto this: 1 insignificant bite -- no, two bites = RIP. Or, A bite to a human that required medical attention = RIP. Or, killing a dog or hospitalizing a human = RIP.

I think as an owner, that an aggressive dog is my problem. It will go no where farther. I will not send it to a shelter or rescue or rehome it on my own. Now, the question is, do I manage the dog and liability, or do I euthanize the dog. And that just depends on my ability to manage the dog and liability. How responsible I feel for the dog's problem might factor in. I think that if the dog had a terminal condition, I would be more likely to euth sooner, only because I would wonder if unmanaged pain or the feeling of something being out of kilter, might be increasing or causing the aggression. 

I just think that every situation is different, and each dog/owner scenario needs to be considered on their own merits/defecits. 

Sorry that isn't really helpful though.


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## debbiebrown

i agree it comes down to the owners decision, based on the actions of the dog and something that becomes impossible to manage. i am not sure if the OP has had this dog evaluated and the mention of health problems could be a be player with this issue.

a huge commitment for sure. a dog like this can definitely not be passed on to someone else, its either keep it and manage it well, or PTS. its hard to speculate not being able to see this dog in person etc. if it were me i would get an evaluation just for my own peace of mind and consider everything.

i have had FA dogs and have managed them fine, some even surprised me and really came around after Alot of hard work and some age behing them. but a down right aggressive dog even bordering on vicoious for not reason to humans/dogs, etc my opinion is genetics gone wrong and a serious danger to everyone. and what kind of a life can a dog like this have? to have to manage and keep them locked up is not the way a dog should live. alot to consider..........


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## KristiM

I know its a very personal decision and the question of aggression is only half the story. When Havoc was 7 months old he bit my niece, I was over at my Dad's for dinner, she walked in the door and without thinking he jumped up and bit her in the shoulder. Thankfully she fell backwards and was wearing a thick winter jacket, he didn't get a good grip and all there was was a nasty bruise. I have been ON TOP OF HIM ever since and other than barking/lunging nothing else has happened. I can read him extremely well and intimately know his triggers. I felt OK with things until one day his tail went limp. After x rays (showing hip dysplasia) several trips for physio, acupuncture, osteo and 4 different vets he was not improving. Every time I take him to the vet the aggression gets worse. In May he had an MRI and was diagnosed with lumbosacral disease, a ruptured disc in his spine. I'm sure him being in pain is part of the worsening aggression and I am starting to realize as he gets worse, he deals with pain by getting neurotic. On nights where he is hurting, he attacks his bed, barks at his reflection in the window, attacks the garbage bins, harasses my other dog, eats non food items etc.

The aggression at the vet is so bad that basically he cannot be treated. When I was there on Wednesday the tech walked in the room and after 10 minutes (and going outside) I had to put him in my van just to talk to her, he would not stop barking, lunging, trying to attack her. The intensity with which he goes after vets is astonishing. His aggression really isn't so bad that he can't be out in public (although I feel its getting there) and it is generally predictable. I do feel though that if I made a mistake, he would maul someone. It would not be a simple bite, he is very ANGRY, not fearful. He wants to fight people not just get them away from him. It's hard to describe, its like if he feels someone has disrespected him (maintained eye contact, got too close to the van etc) he gets really, really mad. I have always caught him before he could escalate, but in a situation like the vet, I get to see where that anger leads to and it is not pretty.

Medically he will not get better, I cannot rest him to even give him a chance. I know that sounds stupid but he is so over the top that it would take some extreme measures to keep him quiet for an extended period of time (like isolation in an outdoor run). He really cannot be disciplined as he does not try to avoid painful stimulus. Any kind of behavior I get from him has to be in drive (like for a toy or food or physically forced). Its not like I can correct him for jumping around and acting like a monkey on crack, corrections only make him higher. Personal corrections (getting really mad at him) will work once in a blue moon but not enough to be at all reliable. His overall temperament makes him extremely hard to manage. Surgery has about a 50% success rate (since he also has hip dysplasia) and a 0% success rate if I can't keep him totally quiet for a few months.

I feel so terrible for him, he just has nothing going for him. If he was just aggressive but I could give him the exercise and mental stimulation to keep him happy I think we would be fine. Or if he was a normal dog and we could rest him appropriately and do things like steroid shots, acupuncture and possibly surgery......with both I really feel like its a losing battle.

All this being said he can be an incredibly sweet dog to my husband and I and I really don't feel like he is unhappy. He still loves to run around and play (even though he is seriously hurting during and after) he still loves to work and often still has a smile on his face. It's really hard to describe a dog over the internet...I am really not an inexperienced dog person, I have apprenticed under 3 different trainers, worked in a dog daycare for 5 years and have been competing in dog sports for around 10 years. Havoc has not had an "assessment" done but I have several friends that are professional trainers and know him well. The friends that I have talked to about this all generally agree that I am out of options.

Sorry for the haphazard post...hard to put down a life time of issues in a few paragraphs.


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## LaRen616

KristiM

After reading your last post, IMO I would put him to sleep. Free him of his pain and of his demons, free you of the stress and fear of him harming someone.

After having my 15 yr old cousin mauled by a Bullmastiff 2 years ago and my little 7 yr old nephew getting viciously bit in the face last October by a pitbull, I firmly believe that if they harm a child for no reason or you fear that they will harm someone, not bite but maul someone, he should be put to sleep. If you cannot 100% keep him from harming someone then he needs to be put down. 

I truly believe that no one can say that they can 100% keep a dog confined and away from a child/person for the rest of the dog's life, accidents can and do happen.


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## wildo

Kristi- I'm so sorry to read this thread. I wish you the best of luck and emotional healing in your decision.


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## KristiM

Thanks Wildo. 

Lauren I'm really sorry to hear about your cousin and nephew. That is truly devastating and my worst nightmare!


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## LaRen616

KristiM said:


> Thanks Wildo.
> 
> Lauren I'm really sorry to hear about your cousin and nephew. That is truly devastating and my worst nightmare!


A dog bite or a dog attack is also my worst nightmare. I would feel terrible if my dog every harmed someone without good reason.

I could never have a dog with human aggression. I couldn't physically control it and I can't say that I can keep that dog away from people for the rest of it's life. I also wouldn't be able to have a dog like that because I know my nephew would not come over while having it.

Both kids are very badly scarred and they both have emotional trauma from the attacks. The older one has to go to a therapist. Both are terrified of the 2 breeds that attacked them and are very leary of dogs they do not know.


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## wolfstraum

Kristi, I know we have talked about him before....it does not really matter whether the pain is causing the aggression because of frustration and anger or the aggression is genetic and the pain is causing this dog behavior...if you cannot treat him, and managing him won't alleviate the pain, I do not think anyone will second guess you on this....I feel very very badly for your dilemma and poor Havoc's quality of life....I think you know what the best thing is for Havoc no matter how hard it is for you emotionally....

<<<hugs>>>>

Lee


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## Mrs.K

Kristy, I was in your shoes and did it. 
I was also judged badly for it. Lee was one of the ver few who understood my decision. Sometimes we have to do what we have to do. I am so sorry that you have to go through this. Its the hardeat thing to do. 

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## Cassidy's Mom

wolfstraum said:


> Kristi, I know we have talked about him before....it does not really matter whether the pain is causing the aggression because of frustration and anger or the aggression is genetic and the pain is causing this dog behavior...if you cannot treat him, and managing him won't alleviate the pain, I do not think anyone will second guess you on this....I feel very very badly for your dilemma and poor Havoc's quality of life....I think you know what the best thing is for Havoc no matter how hard it is for you emotionally....
> 
> <<<hugs>>>>
> 
> Lee


^ I'm with Lee. It's a horrible decision to make, and it's even harder when your spouse is either is not on board or maybe in denial about the seriousness of the issue, but it sounds like you're out of options. Not a happy life for you OR Havoc. Sometimes it's best to just let them go, no matter how hard that will be.


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## Merciel

I agree with what the others have said.

I'm a latecomer to the story, I think; I joined this board around the time you posted about getting the lumbosacral diagnosis. But even in those few months I've gotten glimpses of how hard this must be for both you and Havoc.

If you can't treat his medical issues, and being at the vet is both mentally and physically agonizing for him, and the prognosis is that things are only going to get worse from here... then it does seem like you might not have any better options.

Best wishes, however you decide. I can only imagine how difficult your position must be right now.


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## Jack's Dad

LaRen616 said:


> KristiM
> 
> After reading your last post, IMO I would put him to sleep. Free him of his pain and of his demons, free you of the stress and fear of him harming someone.
> 
> After having my 15 yr old cousin mauled by a Bullmastiff 2 years ago and my little 7 yr old nephew getting viciously bit in the face last October by a pitbull, I firmly believe that if they harm a child for no reason or you fear that they will harm someone, not bite but maul someone, he should be put to sleep. If you cannot 100% keep him from harming someone then he needs to be put down.
> 
> *I truly believe that no one can say that they can 100% keep a dog confined and away from a child/person for the rest of the dog's life, accidents can and do happen.*


I tend to agree with this and I absolutely agree with the bold part. I also agree with Lee. 

It is an awful decision to have to make and I sincerely hope for the best outcome for all involved.

I went through this with a BC that I had and then the accident happened. Someone forgot to lock the gate and he escaped. Then I had to live with was he hit by a car or did he bite someone else because we never found him. At that point I wished he was humanely PTS. 

Thoughts are with you.


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## DaniFani

Galathiel said:


> I had a GSD that could be HA. She was fine with family, including extended family that she may only see every few months, but was not good with strangers at all. She didn't have any physical ailments, so we just managed her. It wasn't that big of a deal at the time. She didn't go places and didn't miss it. We place so much more emphasis nowadays on being able to take your dogs everywhere, but she was happy in her little world.
> 
> *I don't think people were as stupid back then either. You left strange dogs alone!*


This^^ It amazes me how many people reach down and run their hands along my GSD when they walk by, or walk up and pet without asking....sure, there are a fair share that are intimidated by him (just a GSD thing)....but there are also a lot that are fearless of dogs and think they are some kind of dog-whisperer. My GSD is starting to mature and doesn't really seek out attention from strangers anymore, nor does he care if they give him a pat, so I don't worry too much about it. But, I always think about people who have dogs that would snap at a hand that unexpectedly petted it while they walked by. Kids too! When I was a kid you didn't TOUCH a dog without permission first. I think the reason a lot of people put down slightly DA/HA dogs is because of a trend towards "every dog should be able to be pet by anyone." I'm not saying that it's "okay for a dog to bite a neutral person petting it," but the fact of the matter is, a lot of dogs nowadays aren't okay with it, are too nervy, unbalanced, etc....

One of the things I love about this breed is how aloof they are supposed to be. I like it when they act completely uninterested in strangers....it makes people a lot less likely to approach.

*Question for people with "unstable" dogs*: Do you agree that people are more apt to pet a dog without permission? If so, what's your response when it's your "unstable" dog being approached? 

Getting involved in SchH and with a lot of dog trainers has made me much more confident in saying, "nope, he's in training and can't be pet." Even if we aren't training at all lol.


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## gagsd

I have a dog who would bite someone. But I do not consider him unstable. Not every aggressive dog is a neurotic mess.
I walk him at the park, have guests over, etc. But I WATCH him. He has a low threshold for what he deems "rudeness" and a hair trigger. So someone eyeballing him, or yelling or running toward us is an issue.
I double check his collar and leash, make sure we use quality gear, I watch, and I use a walking stick out perpendicular to my side when we walk to keep people from reaching out to pet him.
He is a product of genetics, but also lack of early training and socialization. I like him.


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## Anubis_Star

DaniFani said:


> This^^ It amazes me how many people reach down and run their hands along my GSD when they walk by, or walk up and pet without asking....sure, there are a fair share that are intimidated by him (just a GSD thing)....but there are also a lot that are fearless of dogs and think they are some kind of dog-whisperer. My GSD is starting to mature and doesn't really seek out attention from strangers anymore, nor does he care if they give him a pat, so I don't worry too much about it. But, I always think about people who have dogs that would snap at a hand that unexpectedly petted it while they walked by. Kids too! When I was a kid you didn't TOUCH a dog without permission first. I think the reason a lot of people put down slightly DA/HA dogs is because of a trend towards "every dog should be able to be pet by anyone." I'm not saying that it's "okay for a dog to bite a neutral person petting it," but the fact of the matter is, a lot of dogs nowadays aren't okay with it, are too nervy, unbalanced, etc....
> 
> One of the things I love about this breed is how aloof they are supposed to be. I like it when they act completely uninterested in strangers....it makes people a lot less likely to approach.
> 
> *Question for people with "unstable" dogs*: Do you agree that people are more apt to pet a dog without permission? If so, what's your response when it's your "unstable" dog being approached?
> 
> Getting involved in SchH and with a lot of dog trainers has made me much more confident in saying, "nope, he's in training and can't be pet." Even if we aren't training at all lol.


Oh geesh, I just hate most people most of the time when I'm out with my boys.

I euthanized my 3.5 yr old fear aggressive gsd last year. You can read my other posts for more info on that. I would take him to places like petsmart with a basket muzzle on because he did relatively well when people left him alone, and enjoyed going otherwise. People would walk uo and just pet him, WITH THE BASKET MUZZLE ON

when berlin was really young I had a hard time telling people no dont touch him. So I plastered his harness and leash with "do not pet, in training" stickers. Did it work? NO. I had "trainers" at these big chain pet stores just walk up and start telling him to sit or whatnot and giving him treats. When I said he isnt learning verbal obedience commands at the moment, their heads would explode

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## Mikelia

When a dog is not safe, cannot be made safe and there is the possibility of not being able to keep the dog safe. There are so many perfectly normal dogs in desperate need of homes that could fill a dangerously aggressive dogs spot, as hard as it is to think that way.
Well, this is what I told myself when I had to deal with an unpredictable dog.
I worked at a rescue at the time and 6ish year old rotti/bullmastiff/lab type mix came in with no history. Once he was healthy he showed his true colours. He was severely animal and people aggressive and it was not based from fear. He wanted to challenge all other beings, my assumption is he was tied to a dog house all his life as a 'guard dog'. I worked with him for 6 months in the rescue, then brought him home for 6 months. We worked really hard and he came leaps and bounds. I could control him around strangers, he made dog friends, I could keep him from lunging at the cats so long as he was leashed. He ended up an amazingly obedient companion who I could do anything to. But he was unpredictable with anyone other than myself. He was fine with other people in the house 90% of the time, friendly and loving and would roll over for belly rubs or lay his head on their laps. But every once in a while he would stare, lunge and try to attack. If I was around I could easily get him under control, but he would still try to eat them given opportunity. And if I wasn't around there was no stopping him. 
He was never given the opportunity to hurt anyone. I never allowed him to be in a situation where he broke skin, caused stitches, or killed another animal. That didn't mean that if the chance came up, he wouldn't. I knew he would seriously hurt someone some day, and that it might be someone I cared about. I could never have him in a group of dogs, I would have needed to stop doing rescue if I were to keep him. So I took my perfectly healthy, beautifully trained, loving and athletic 7 year old dog and held him down while he was euthanized. I just kept telling myself 'do I wait for something to happen (kennel breaks open one day, gate gets left open, the leash or collar breaks etc...) and have to put him down after he has hurt someone and I am dealing with a court case or do I be pro active and know that I made a difference in his life and did everything possible for him and put him down under better circumstances'. 
It was one of the most difficult decisions I have ever made but I know that I made his life the best life it could be. And many dogs have come through my door since him and are thankful for the help I have given them as well. 
I can't tell you what to do with your dog but it does not sound like he or yourself are happy. You will always think of 'what if' but you can't live your life based on what ifs. What if my dog never ended up hurting someone, what if I managed him well and he lived out the rest of his life with me. Or what if he did hurt someone, the dog was taken from me, held at animal control for 6 months until I lost the court case, was destroyed and was miserable up until that point. I like to think I ended his pain and he was happy until the end.


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## debbiebrown

so sorry Kristi, after reading your other posts about Havoc, it is a hard decision to make. but with the health issue i think your right, he's in pain and it is showing. i think if he did not have the health issues he could be managed as you said, proper exercise, socialization, lots of work. but the health problems he has will not improve much with some of the options mentioned. i feel very sad for you it stinks to have to make such a decision...............


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## KristiM

Thank you everyone for the support and sharing experiences. I have spoken with a lot of friends and family members about this and frankly I'm surprised that everyone agrees that this is very unfortunately my only option. Yesterday my husband and I had a logical conversation about it and he knows its the only thing we can do. He said he wants to wait until he is on holidays, the second week in September.....but today he's back to talking about how we are going to "murder" our poor innocent dog. I know he just has a very hard time dealing with dogs passing but it makes this super hard for me. I know I should just give him his space and let him sort it out on his own. I don't know if waiting a month is the best thing for anyone but I'm not going to push the issue right now. I should be hearing from my regular vet early next week and I'm going to chat with her about what is going on. She has known havoc since he was a puppy and has been keeping up to date on all his issues and specialist appointments. I'm going to see what her take is on our current situation.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Depends on the dog I think. Had a fear aggressive one last year, was HA and DA. Between intensive OB, +R and compulsion she was under control and was fairly safe as long as no one touched her. People here ask to pet and when they did she usually gave them a good answer..lol. Ended up selling her to a couple with property and another dog. She does well there and they love her.

Would she have bitten a kid, adult or another dog? Yes, and she tried it numerous times in the beginning. Would putting her down have been a reasonable option? Yes.


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## Drusella

Before putting down an aggressive dog may want to try an old trick. If you take a look at your GSD mouth you will notice that the canine teeth are the only teeth that can do any damage. The teeth just behind are too small to damage, and the molars are too far back to use for an attack. The dog knows this as well. To render the dog harmless don't have to take its life just have its canines filed down. Seen this done on a monster dobie many years ago. Not sure about the circumstances why it was done, but I could say the dog was a gentleman. So much he was allowed to roam the streets on his own.


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## Jax08

debbiebrown said:


> so sorry Kristi, after reading your other posts about Havoc, it is a hard decision to make. but with the health issue i think your right, he's in pain and it is showing. i think if he did not have the health issues he could be managed as you said, proper exercise, socialization, lots of work. but the health problems he has will not improve much with some of the options mentioned. i feel very sad for you it stinks to have to make such a decision...............


Debbie said what I was thinking so well. 

All situations are different. Banshee is HA but we have managed her successfully to a ripe old age. But she does not have other health issues contributing to it. If she were in pain as Havok is, we would be making the same decision you are now struggling with.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I am so sorry you are facing this situation. 

I've dealt with a somewhat similar situation with a fostered Jack Russell I had.

Absolutely a sweetie with me, my dogs and family. Showed no aggression what so ever when I took him out and about.

I found a wonderful home for him with a toddler. At the home visit he interacted with the toddler and female JR they had wonderfully.

Couple of weeks later I get a call, "he bit my toddler who was playing on his scooter". I took the little guy back. We reevaluated and decided to play it safe and rehome only in homes with older children.

I found wonderful home #2 divorced father with one teenage son who stayed with him part time. Dog savvy and kind people.

A few weeks later got the call, "he bit my son while we were playing football in the back yard". Bit him hard enough to puncture skin too.

I took him to the vet, in this case there were no health issues detected, discussed with two trainers including a behaviorist and we decided that euthanizing him was the appropriate option. We talked about rehoming in adult only home but too many 'what ifs' could happen. Kids playing in the yard, grandkids or nieces and nephews coming to visit his new home?

It was very hard to do and even though I had not intended to keep him we had bonded. The personality I had witnessed was of a tenacious spirited little dog with a very cuddly side too. Yet there was a side to him that couldn't be trusted and though he was a small dog he could inflict wounds on a small child easily. 

It's not easy and there are many variables to consider, but as others have said, sometimes it is the right thing to do.

Best to you and your family as you work through this situation.


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## Anubis_Star

Drusella said:


> Before putting down an aggressive dog may want to try an old trick. If you take a look at your GSD mouth you will notice that the canine teeth are the only teeth that can do any damage. The teeth just behind are too small to damage, and the molars are too far back to use for an attack. The dog knows this as well. To render the dog harmless don't have to take its life just have its canines filed down. Seen this done on a monster dobie many years ago. Not sure about the circumstances why it was done, but I could say the dog was a gentleman. So much he was allowed to roam the streets on his own.


Dogs can do plenty of damage with all of their teeth, and they have a very strong crushing bite. Not only that but many learn to use their bodies to attack as well and that can cause plenty of damage

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gharrissc

I think a lot of aggressive dogs can be helped, but the problem is that there aren't enough experienced people to do so.


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## arycrest

KristiM said:


> I'm just curious to see what people's thoughts on this are. I have read a few times on this forum now where people have made the decision due to severe aggression. Where does one draw the line? Obviously this breed carries more aggression than most...but if it comes in high doses, without balance....


I've only been faced with this terrible dilemma once in my life, when I adopted Bo, my mutt. Within the first 24/48 hours that I had him, he bit every one of the Hooligans at least once and mauled my arm.

I did everything possible to ensure he never bit another human or animal again. If he had bitten another human I would have had him put down immediately. OR if he had continued being aggresive with the other Hooligans (or dogs in general) I would also have seriously considered putting him down. 

Fortunately I was never faced with this terrible decision. He and I worked very very very hard altering his aggressive behavior towards both man and beast. I even went so far as to take him to a dog psychic for help. 

Thanks to the help of many people who gave me suggestions on how to progress with the neutralization of his aggressive behavior, he lived to a ripe old age. When he was somewhere between 10 and 13 years old, he was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma, and was put down on the operating table when it was determined all his internal organs were riddled with cancer.

NOTE: I replied to this message before reading the rest of the thread. I also agree with the person who suggested pulling the four canine teeth and see how that works. Not an ideal solution, but it might work.


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## Blanketback

As far as removing the teeth goes: my brother was bitten by a GSD, in the back of the thigh. The dog was chained and my brother was within biting distance. He was lucky and his skin wasn't broken, but he had a massive bruise for weeks and he said that it was incredibly painful. This damage was done with the force of the jaw, not just the injury from the canines.

IDK about putting a dog down for aggression, thankfully I've never had to make that heartbreaking decision. I'm so sorry for those of you who have, it's not something I can wrap my mind around - knowing me, I'd accept almost anything. I think the dog would have to maul me before I'd be willing to say goodbye. But I have the time and the property and the lifestyle to manage a dog like this, so I'm certainly not judging others for the decisions they make. 

Kristi, I'm so sorry you're going through this. I wish your husband would be more understanding - I don't think using the word "murder" is helpful at all. Although, I've known people to use this word before, even when referring to PTS their very very ill animals. Maybe it's a coping device, a way to redirect the anger? Because there's always anger involved with loss at some point.


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## boomer11

my opinion might not be popular but i believe a pet should bring joy and not stress to your life. a dog that you have to constantly manage is highly stressful. also a dog that is barking and lunging at people also isnt enjoying his life. he's highly stressed. a pet that has you constantly worrying and stressed should be removed from your life. with a HA dog the best way to do that is to put it to sleep. i wouldnt pass a dangerous dog off to another person.


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## ugavet2012

Drusella said:


> Before putting down an aggressive dog may want to try an old trick. If you take a look at your GSD mouth you will notice that the canine teeth are the only teeth that can do any damage. The teeth just behind are too small to damage, and the molars are too far back to use for an attack. The dog knows this as well. To render the dog harmless don't have to take its life just have its canines filed down. Seen this done on a monster dobie many years ago. Not sure about the circumstances why it was done, but I could say the dog was a gentleman. So much he was allowed to roam the streets on his own.


Lol what??? I totally disagree with this. I see lots of dogs at my practice missing canines that we have removed and they can still hurt you and they sure as heck still try to bite. We have dogs and cats with NO teeth who still try to bite. The bite pressure from a large dogs jaws is plenty enough to hurt someone with only molars and premolars.


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## Drusella

Blanketback said:


> As far as removing the teeth goes: my brother was bitten by a GSD, in the back of the thigh. The dog was chained and my brother was within biting distance. He was lucky and his skin wasn't broken, but he had a massive bruise for weeks and he said that it was incredibly painful. This damage was done with the force of the jaw, not just the injury from the canines.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> As a medical doctor I have taken care of patients with terrible bite wounds from GSD in ER setting. Believe me when I tell you, its the canine teeth that do the damage. Also as a GSD owner who engages my dogs in bite sleeve training I have seen up close the dog's technique and strategy of attack. The dog purposely uses its canine teeth to grab and rip. Its tools of attack and violence are the canine teeth. The dog attacks with its canine teeth because it is fully aware that the canines are for attacking just as we know are thumbs are for hitch hiking.
> 
> Filing down the canines will make the dog less aggressive since it knows it does not have his true weapons and has been disarmed. If it attacks it will not be severe maybe a bruise I will give you that. The thing here is that if it were my dog knowing what I know seeing what I have seen including the success of this technique I would file down the canine teeth before taking its life. Also if you wanted to make sure of its disposition without canines see if it will attack a sleeve and if does get an idea of what it can actually do with out full canines, if the dog shows you it can still do damage then put it down.
> 
> To those who have seen dogs with out canines bite, like I said I have seen the opposite. If you want to put the dog down put it down but if you are asking for help and do not want to put the dog down with out trying something this is an option, which I have seen work.


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## ugavet2012

Drusella said:


> Blanketback said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as removing the teeth goes: my brother was bitten by a GSD, in the back of the thigh. The dog was chained and my brother was within biting distance. He was lucky and his skin wasn't broken, but he had a massive bruise for weeks and he said that it was incredibly painful. This damage was done with the force of the jaw, not just the injury from the canines.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> As a medical doctor I have taken care of patients with terrible bite wounds from GSD in ER setting. Believe me when I tell you, its the canine teeth that do the damage. Also as a GSD owner who engages my dogs in bite sleeve training I have seen up close the dog's technique and strategy of attack. The dog purposely uses its canine teeth to grab and rip. Its tools of attack and violence are the canine teeth. The dog attacks with its canine teeth because it is fully aware that the canines are for attacking just as we know are thumbs are for hitch hiking.
> 
> Filing down the canines will make the dog less aggressive since it knows it does not have his true weapons and has been disarmed. If it attacks it will not be severe maybe a bruise I will give you that. The thing here is that if it were my dog knowing what I know seeing what I have seen including the success of this technique I would file down the canine teeth before taking its life. Also if you wanted to make sure of its disposition without canines see if it will attack a sleeve and if does get an idea of what it can actually do with out full canines, if the dog shows you it can still do damage then put it down.
> 
> 
> 
> And as a veterinary doctor and I'm totally disagreeing with you
Click to expand...


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## Gwenhwyfair

The removal of canines is probably a moot point, given the dog in question is already dealing with terminal health conditions and showing signs of pain I wonder if filing or removing canine teeth at this point appropriate or fair to him?


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## Rallhaus

I had a dog, a pit mix, we put him down.
He bit (all unprovoked):
my father
me
husband's best friend
2 yo granddaughter - 2 sutures.
14 yo son in face when sitting on son's face

I had to keep a broom with me at a times because he would attack me from behind.

We did obedience training, behavioral therapy, spent 1,000's on him.

When a dog becomes a liability its time to put it down, no if's and's or but's.


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## ugavet2012

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The removal of canines is probably a moot point, given the dog in question is already dealing with terminal health conditions and showing signs of pain I wonder if filing or removing canine teeth at this point appropriate or fair to him?


No it's not, it's a painful procedure where the dog would need to stay at the vets for the day to get it done (not a good thing for this dog)and it weakens the jaw a good bit because we have to drill away so much bone due to the length of the roots. Probably not the best thing for a high drive GSD. Thats one of the many reasons I disagree with it completely.


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## Merciel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The removal of canines is probably a moot point, given the dog in question is already dealing with terminal health conditions and showing signs of pain I wonder if filing or removing canine teeth at this point appropriate or fair to him?


yepyep

Particularly since the dog's behavior is so extreme at the vet that _routine_ treatment is impossible, I doubt tooth removal is viable here (even if it worked, which I'm also dubious about).


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## Gwenhwyfair

Thanks for the insight ugavet (go dawgs, course I mean the GSD kind! )**


I think I would maybe consider removal of canines as a last ditch effort under different circumstances but not without a lot of thought and consultation with experts on the medical and training aspects.


(**btw ugavet, I know sometimes in other threads you get some feedback with 'google medicine' from people who are not medical professionals and it's frustrating but know that I and probably a lot of others read and pay attention to your posts. So keep that in mind when you're feeling frustrated here on the net. For everyone who is being a pain there's a bunch more who appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge and insight)

..O.K. sorry for the little hi-jack there but had to get that out.


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## ugavet2012

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Thanks for the insight UGAvet (go dawgs, course I mean the GSD kind! )**
> 
> 
> I think I would maybe consider removal of canines under different circumstances but not without a lot of thought and consultation with experts.
> 
> 
> (**btw UGAVet, I know sometimes in other threads you get bombarded with 'google medicine' from people who are not medical professionals and it's frustrating but know that I and probably a lot of others read and pay attention to your posts. So keep that in mind when you're feeling frustrated here on the net. For everyone who is being a pain there's a bunch more who appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge and insight)
> 
> ..O.K. sorry for the little hi-jack there but had to get that out.


That was an awesome hi-jack, thanks for saying that


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## TATTOO&MONEY

I'm not sure if anyone done this before but why won't the owner of the aggressive dog battle it out? Meaning when the dog gets aggressive you started to go Bruce Lee on it and see if the dog straight out? Back in my country I remembered the whole neighborhood went after this crazy dog that bite everyone pass by his house, the dog was corner and the a$$ whopping begin...guess what that very dog was a changed dog.


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## Mrs.K

In this time and age you can "save any dog" and people expect you to pay 1000's upon 1000's to "save" the dog without any regards to the owners situation or position. 

It's easy to say that we should save a dog if you don't have to live with the dog or pay the bills. 

One should not have to dish out 1000's of dollars before being "sanctioned" by the general public to put the dog down. 

If one feels that the dog has become a liability, you take the dog and you put it down. What everyone considers a liability is up to them personally. 

There are dogs that can be saved and there are dogs where it's very clear that they are in fact a liability. 

If a dog has a terminal condition on top of that, personally, the choice would be made in favor of euthanasia. 

Right now I have a dog with a progressive disease. She is more irritable towards other dogs and I'm still not sure if it stems from frustration, pain or both together because other than that she's not showing any signs of pain. 

She has been treated with steroids and is going back on steroids again. If the vet feels that a surgery might help we might have her undergo the surgery, if not... the day she refuses food or I feel that she has become a liability I will euthanize and I certainly don't care what all the internet experts are going to say or how I'm going to be judged for it. 

As long as any of you isn't paying any bills, care for the dog or live with the dog on a daily basis, none of us has the right to judge anyone for euthanizing a dog. All you know is a fraction of what is going on behind that screen. 

If she feels that the dog has no more quality of life, with a terminal illness I wouldn't judge her to pts. In fact, I'd recommend it. There is only so much you can do not only financially but also emotionally. It must be a highly stressful situation for everyone involved. 

I know what it's like to have a dog euthanized for aggression and what a positive impact it had on the pack. There was a sigh of relieve going through the house, as sad as it was. It was instant relieve of stress for everyone. No more tiptoeing around a dog. No more being on top of them for a 150% of the time. 

It takes a toll on everyone. Every single person and pet in the house is affected by it and it's STRESS! 

Filing down teeth will not change anything. And for a terminal ill dog? Before I put that dog through that kind of stress, I'd take it to the vet and pts.


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## marbury

TATTOO&MONEY said:


> I'm not sure if anyone done this before but why won't the owner of the aggressive dog battle it out? Meaning when the dog gets aggressive you started to go Bruce Lee on it and see if the dog straight out? Back in my country I remembered the whole neighborhood went after this crazy dog that bite everyone pass by his house, the dog was corner and the a$$ whopping begin...guess what that very dog was a changed dog.



I can't... what even...

WHAT?!

Is this le trolling or am I correct in interpreting the suggestion that, in the case of an aggressive dog, he be tied to a street corner and beaten by everyone in the neighborhood until he suddenly becomes a submissive dog again?

:thinking:


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## Merciel

I'm going to assume it's trolling because the alternative is more depressing than I want to contemplate today.

Or any day, really.


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## KristiM

I really haven't felt judged poorly by anyone. Most people agree that the medical conditions alone warrant euthanasia. I know that he eventually will lose bladder/bowel control along with use of his back legs. Even now he has a hard time with bowel movements, going up and down stairs and is very stiff in the mornings, drags his back feet etc. At this moment the aggression is really the "straw that birkke the camels back." I have never considered rehoming him (that would be irresponsible of me) and as for removing his teeth or having my neighbours beat him????!!! Ah, no, that wouldn't be a good idea for any dog IMO. 

I'm sure there are people who would hang in there with him to the very end, but it's not worth me losing my mind, my other dog being constantly stressed and bullied and the liability he has become to other people and dogs.


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## Drusella

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The removal of canines is probably a moot point, given the dog in question is already dealing with terminal health conditions and showing signs of pain I wonder if filing or removing canine teeth at this point appropriate or fair to him?


I agree my statements regarding filing down the canines was for a generic dog whose only problem was aggression and was looking at being put down because nothing else has worked which seems to be a popular trend. In this case I certainly would not recommend this since the dog is sick and what I gather from your post is terminal and indeed is a mute point.


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## katieliz

kristim, agree with all those who are supportive of the difficult decision you've made, have nothing to add (except imho you've gone above and beyond already, girl), but just want to send some supportive, positive energy your way...you are on the right track, stay strong and take care.


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## JakodaCD OA

Kristi, I think you have a really difficult decision Only one you can make.

I will say this tho,,dog aggression is much easier to deal with than human aggression. If had to choose, I'd choose a da dog over an ha dog.

Coupled with the fact, he has alot of health issues going on, that aren't going to be cured, I personally, would probably opt to euthanize tho I hate to say it and I'm sure you hate to say it, think it to.

He's a dog who's fine with his immediate family, and THAT alone, I think makes the decision harder..Don't second guess yourself, don't feel guilty, which is easy for me to say..Sometimes life stinks, and we have to do things we never in a million years want to do or think we'll have to do

Hang in there..


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## Drusella

Drusella said:


> I agree my statements regarding filing down the canines was for a generic dog whose only problem was aggression and was looking at being put down because nothing else has worked which seems to be a popular trend. In this case I certainly would not recommend this since the dog is sick and what I gather from your post is terminal and indeed is a mute point.


Even in the generic dog I do not believe one would ever get to the point where the dog would need to have his teeth filed down or the dog be put down. Even if it came to that and everything possible had been done I am sure the cases would be rare.The problem I see is many dogs are put down for aggression because so called experts say nothing else can be done. However, I believe there are many things that can be tried and the chances are something will work. The whole idea of filing teeth down is something that would clearly be last option before putting the dog down for me, and there would not be a guarantee of success. I threw this out there as an option of last resort for the generic aggressive dog in which it was going to be put down because everything else had failed. It however became a distraction and perhaps belongs on a different thread. I would add that I accept blame to this distraction since I did not know the whole story of this post before I threw out the filing of teeth option.

So lets get beyond this subject of teeth filing and see if we can actually come up with something that could help this person and her GSD who is facing the real possibility of being put down.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Nothing wrong with suggestions, I hadn't thought of it before and maybe in some cases it would be a possibility, filing/removing canines.

In blue - As to the dog being discussed sounds like the OP is a dog savvy person who has done a lot already. (see post #18 in this thread for more indepth details)

IMO I think it is now up to her and her husband, only.



Drusella said:


> Even in the generic dog I do not believe one would ever get to the point where the dog would need to have his teeth filed down or the dog be put down. Even if it came to that and everything possible had been done I am sure the cases would be rare.The problem I see is many dogs are put down for aggression because so called experts say nothing else can be done. However, I believe there are many things that can be tried and the chances are something will work. The whole idea of filing teeth down is something that would clearly be last option before putting the dog down for me, and there would not be a guarantee of success. I threw this out there as an option of last resort for the generic aggressive dog in which it was going to be put down because everything else had failed. It however became a distraction and perhaps belongs on a different thread. I would add that I accept blame to this distraction since I did not know the whole story of this post before I threw out the filing of teeth option.
> 
> So lets get beyond this subject of teeth filing and see if we can actually come up with something that could help this person and her GSD who is facing the real possibility of being put down.


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## Vangie

IM dealing with this right now. I don't know what to do either. It hurts to think about putting him down. I don't think rehoming is a possibility either. 




http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/319297-end-my-rope.html


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## KristiM

Just thought I would update about what is going on with Havoc....

After talking with my husband about it several times we have decided to hold off on doing anything with Havoc. His reasoning is that realistically Havoc doesn't have that much longer with his back the way it is anyways and that we should try to enjoy him and keep him happy for as long as we can. My husband is going to step up with taking havoc for walks and some of the daily management since I really need a break from the stress of him. Basically I have said that the next time he goes to the vet will be the last, I cannot take him back to the vet. It is way too stressful for me, dangerous for the staff and my husband cannot take him because he has no experience handling large, aggressive dogs. 

We are also basically keeping him separate from my other dog because if they fight again and either one needs to go to the vet, it will be decision time. Havoc seems to be a little better this week, last week before the vet appointment we had run out of Percocet and he was just on gabapentin which obviously was not enough for pain control. He seems to have good days and bad days with his back end...he could barely get down the stairs this morning, but mornings seem to be the worst. As much as I hate this dog sometimes its hard not to admire how resilient he is. Most of the time you would never know that he has a ruptured disc.

I definitely have a new understanding for just how hard it is to manage an aggressive dog after the last 2 years with him. I never would have judged anyone previously for euthanizing an aggressive dog, I have known several people who have done so. But I now know just how hard that decision is and how much you need to change your lifestyle to accommodate a dog like this.


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## JakodaCD OA

not sure if you can add it with the gabapentin, but have you tried tramadol for pain management? may help..


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## Saphire

Fentanyl patches are also used for dogs with chronic pain.


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## KristiM

He does well with the Gabapentin AND Percocet, which we now have both again and I believe that now it is basically an open prescription. I will talk to them again on Monday to see if they think there are any other options, he's kind of on a cocktail of drugs right now so I know things can get a little more complicated when you start to add things. I just hope he doesn't feel as terrible on all this stuff as I would....


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## Mrs.K

KristiM said:


> He does well with the Gabapentin AND Percocet, which we now have both again and I believe that now it is basically an open prescription. I will talk to them again on Monday to see if they think there are any other options, he's kind of on a cocktail of drugs right now so I know things can get a little more complicated when you start to add things. I just hope he doesn't feel as terrible on all this stuff as I would....


I'm on Percocet for every 2-4 hours right now. When I was on that dosage I was highly irritable. Then Meloxicam and Cyclobenzaprin was added. All three together simply knock me out and I just slept for hours and hours at a time and if I was awake, I was very irritable. I reduced Percocet to one pill per day and rather take the pain and only use the other two if I really, really have to instead of hanging on those drugs right now. 

*I can only imagine how your boy must feel. *


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## Cassidy's Mom

KristiM said:


> After talking with my husband about it several times we have decided to hold off on doing anything with Havoc. His reasoning is that realistically Havoc doesn't have that much longer with his back the way it is anyways and that we should try to enjoy him and keep him happy for as long as we can. My husband is going to step up with taking havoc for walks and some of the daily management since I really need a break from the stress of him. Basically I have said that the next time he goes to the vet will be the last, I cannot take him back to the vet. It is way too stressful for me, dangerous for the staff and my husband cannot take him because he has no experience handling large, aggressive dogs.


This sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.

I was going to ask earlier but I forgot - has your husband gone with you to the vet and witnessed what an ordeal it is? It sounded like he was minimizing the problem, which could have lead to his denial about how serious it is. It's a tough choice no matter what, but if your husband is only seeing the sweet dog Havoc is at home and not his aggressive response to the vet that makes it even harder for you since he's thinking with his heart and not his head.


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## KristiM

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
> 
> I was going to ask earlier but I forgot - has your husband gone with you to the vet and witnessed what an ordeal it is? It sounded like he was minimizing the problem, which could have lead to his denial about how serious it is. It's a tough choice no matter what, but if your husband is only seeing the sweet dog Havoc is at home and not his aggressive response to the vet that makes it even harder for you since he's thinking with his heart and not his head.


He has never been to the vet with Havoc and I, so yes that is a huge part of the problem. He has seen glimpses of Havocs aggression but that is it. The tough part is that Havoc is not aggressive to everyone, all the time. So my husband will have friends over and as long as they are introduced properly Havoc is super friendly, acts like a goofy puppy and plays with them all night. (Other than Havoc humping guests lol Ryan generally sees him acting like a friendly playful dog, that is just very dominant.) The major issue is that Havoc has no inhibitions with his aggression, so when it comes, it is extremely dangerous, my husband has never seen that. I think if Havoc had no health issues he could have gone through life thinking that he was the king of the world and no one would ever mess with him. But since he has been messed with so much he looks at everyone like "are you going to screw with me? If so I'll kill you!"

(ETA: I realize it sounds really dumb having friends over and allowing them to interact with Havoc...these aren't really "normal" friends they are guys my husband went to Afghanistan with and they all understand who havoc is and Ryan trusts them to interact with them, so I guess I do too.)


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## TATTOO&MONEY

Merciel said:


> I'm going to assume it's trolling because the alternative is more depressing than I want to contemplate today.
> 
> Or any day, really.


If you dont like what I typed you can move on to the next post, but don't jump on the band wagon and call people trolling.


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## TATTOO&MONEY

marbury said:


> I can't... what even...
> 
> WHAT?!
> 
> Is this le trolling or am I correct in interpreting the suggestion that, in the case of an aggressive dog, he be tied to a street corner and beaten by everyone in the neighborhood until he suddenly becomes a submissive dog again?
> 
> :thinking:


Everyone here trying to give some type of suggestion and I'm no different. So in your view what I mention wasn't the best advice and you have to call me trolling?


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## wolfstraum

TATTOO&MONEY said:


> I'm not sure if anyone done this before but why won't the owner of the aggressive dog battle it out? Meaning when the dog gets aggressive you started to go Bruce Lee on it and see if the dog straight out? Back in my country I remembered the whole neighborhood went after this crazy dog that bite everyone pass by his house, the dog was corner and the a$$ whopping begin...guess what that very dog was a changed dog.



What country are you from???? This is absurd!!!!!!!!!!! The Muslims will do this to women in a few Arab countries and kill them for some misdemeanor.....but to suggest doing this to a dog is just downright ludicrous and insane! Not to mention that it is animal cruelty as well!!! Which is illegal here!

Lee


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## sparra

DaniFani said:


> This^^ It amazes me how many people reach down and run their hands along my GSD when they walk by, or walk up and pet without asking....sure, there are a fair share that are intimidated by him (just a GSD thing)....but there are also a lot that are fearless of dogs and think they are some kind of dog-whisperer. My GSD is starting to mature and doesn't really seek out attention from strangers anymore, nor does he care if they give him a pat, so I don't worry too much about it. But, I always think about people who have dogs that would snap at a hand that unexpectedly petted it while they walked by. Kids too! When I was a kid you didn't TOUCH a dog without permission first. I think the reason a lot of people put down slightly DA/HA dogs is because of a trend towards "every dog should be able to be pet by anyone." I'm not saying that it's "okay for a dog to bite a neutral person petting it," but the fact of the matter is, a lot of dogs nowadays aren't okay with it, are too nervy, unbalanced, etc....
> 
> One of the things I love about this breed is how aloof they are supposed to be. I like it when they act completely uninterested in strangers....it makes people a lot less likely to approach.
> 
> *Question for people with "unstable" dogs*: Do you agree that people are more apt to pet a dog without permission? If so, what's your response when it's your "unstable" dog being approached?
> 
> Getting involved in SchH and with a lot of dog trainers has made me much more confident in saying, "nope, he's in training and can't be pet." Even if we aren't training at all lol.


If you take your dog out in public you need to expect this. Alot of the public are not dog people. They don't know the first thing about dogs and chances are if they have children they too will not have been taught anything about dogs. People like this, rightly or wrongly, will assume that a dog who is out amongst the public is SAFE. They don't know about "fear aggression" or "weak nerves" of "aloofness" all they know is that there is a dog amongst all the people and therefore it MUST be safe to approach and pat.
There is nothing you can do about these "dumb" people and "unruly disobedient" children as they are often referred to.
Every time you take a dog out among the masses you will come across this. 
You are responsible for your dog and his behavior when you take them out.....NOT the public. If your dog is not safe and would bite the hand of a child who reaches out in excitement to pat the nice doggie it shouldn't be there.
People who own dogs who are reactive need to stop blaming the general public for being so "dumb". 
If your dog is really so unstable that it can't handle anything unexpected then taking it to places where the unexpected is always around the corner seems irresponsible to me.


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## Liesje

I'm late to this discussion and have not read all the responses but personally, when considering euthanasia I consider quality of life. If a dog is so "aggressive" that he is constantly in a state of stress and fear (fight or flight), to me that is like a dog being in constant pain. I would worry more about the dog than the actual biting. I can contain a dog and keep him from biting but if I can't help him with the the stress...


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## KristiM

That is the tough part about this, he is not in a constant state of fear or stress and when he is around people he is quite comfortable, likes to play with them etc. But if you happen to piss him off its like flipping a switch and he goes from calm, happy, relaxed to full on attack. Happened this weekend, my friend was staying with us (she is an experienced dog trainer) they were playing for about an hour, he was absolutely fine. We all went to leave which made him mad for some reason, I saw his facial expression change and immediately grabbed him and he went from happy, friendly to trying to attack her and didn't stop until she left. She has been training dogs for 12+ years and was blown away by the switch and the intensity of his aggression. He will not be out anymore with people around, period. I can't imagine what would happen if I missed that facial expression. On the plus side my husband saw it and it was a bit of a reality check for him....

Still don't know what we are going to do. He now has a weird infection on his leg which I am not taking him to the vet for...His back continues to slowly get worse but he still loves walks and is very happy and playful a lot of the time. There are times now though that he looks at me with some desperation in his eyes, I know he's hurting and its starting to wear on him. He has lost pretty much all the muscle tone in his back legs and slips and slides around a lots on the hard wood floors now. Breaks my heart every time I look at him.

I know reading this people probably think good god this dog needs to be put to sleep! But man when you see him out running around playing with his toys with a giant smile on his face it makes this extremely hard!


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## Mrs.K

Kristi, honestly... I know how hard the decision is. At this point, it really sounds like the time has come. With Indra, I still have room and there is a glimpse of hope but with your boy, just from your current post, I'd say the time has come to let him go while he's still got some dignity left. 

I know it's easy to say and hard to do. I'll keep you in my thoughts. (((HUGS)))


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## KristiM

Thanks Mrs. K, in my head I know its what needs to be done....its the doing it part. I also spoke with my regular vet for about an hour last week and she strongly advised euthanasia as well. She feels that I have really left no stone un turned and that with the amount of pain he is in and the aggression behind him that I am running a huge risk keeping him. My husband just somehow doesn't see it that way and grows closer and closer to Havoc everyday. I just don't know what to do.


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## OriginalWacky

I wish there were some magic words I could write that would make this all better or easier, but I'm pretty sure those don't exist. It's pretty hard when your heart and your head don't agree, especially with all the love in your heart. But I'm wondering if you're going to have to put your foot down with your husband and take the decision out of his hands. I'm sorry your family is going through this.


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## KristiM

I know there is nothing anyone can say to help make this decision easier for me. It just helps a bit to talk about it and get some different perspectives. I am supposed to be getting a puppy at some point soon, its kind of still all up in the air. I think that once we know for sure if the puppy is a go/have the puppy, my husband may be able to cope with losing Havoc. He needs a dog to be buddies with and cuddle with and Odin is not all that cuddly and is totally a mommas boy. I just think he looks at losing Havoc and feels like he's going to be all alone. It doesn't help that we lost our aussie almost exactly a year ago, she was his "girl" and Havoc filled the void when she died. Man sometimes loving/owning dogs sucks!


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## Jack's Dad

Best to you Kristi. Are you going with a different breed because of health concerns? GSD's change our lives in a way that some other breeds don't.

For example, neither of mine are reactive but they are typical in the aloof, suspicious, and aggressive areas. This makes where I take them and how I watch them different than more mellow breeds. 

I love them but there are times I wish for a lap dog that loves everyone and is no threat to anything or anybody.


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## KristiM

Jack's Dad said:


> Best to you Kristi. Are you going with a different breed because of health concerns? GSD's change our lives in a way that some other breeds don't.
> 
> For example, neither of mine are reactive but they are typical in the aloof, suspicious, and aggressive areas. This makes where I take them and how I watch them different than more mellow breeds.
> 
> I love them but there are times I wish for a lap dog that loves everyone and is no threat to anything or anybody.


Health is the main reason I'm going to a different breed. I also wanted something a bit smaller and more athletic. I do a lot with my dogs and feel that a GSD frame generally isn't designed for all the different things I want to do with my dogs. I REALLY like a good GSD temperament, I love that they are aloof and that they are MY dog and no one else really matters to them. But with that type of temperament there is a very fine line and things seem to go south very easily. I may own another one someday, but not right now.


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## Liesje

I know it can be hard, my good friend's GSD is very similar. He is like a goofy puppy with some people but other times, it's like his switch flips randomly. He's now bitten 3 different people, each time it has escalated (how easily he was provoked and how badly he bit). It's hard for me to convince myself to be wary of him, because I've known him since she got him (I was there the day she did) and I don't see that side of him, I have to constantly remind myself what he has done and what he's capable of. Each time she slips up, he bites. Now he just can't be around anyone other than her family and a few select people (probably not even me any more). I think she had considered putting him down. However, he is a "pet" (she didn't really get him to do any sports so it doesn't matter if he can't go anywhere) and he's OK at the vet as far as I know (which makes him even more unpredictable!).


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## KristiM

I stopped taking him with me to trials quite a while ago, which is a big part of the reason my husband has become so close to him. The biggest issue with the aggression is not being able to go on holidays or camping for the weekend and the vet is obviously a HUGE issue. I'm to the point where I just won't bring him to the vet anymore. And since he almost always has some small issue going on (on top of the big issues) that requires treatment, like the infection on his hock right now. Not being able to take him in is going to be a decision maker for my husband and I. He seems to think I should text the vet a picture and they should just send me a prescription lol.


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## SusiQ

Kristi -

I understand about the different breed/health situation. After owning several GSDs over the years, I have had my heart broken with some of the health problems that have plagued the breed. I've had one with severe fear/anxiety, one with severe OCD, one that had a massive heart attack and died in my husband's arms at age 7, and now my Raven, who just had half her lower mandible removed in May after being diagnosed with OS of the jaw - she just turned 8. She is doing well now, but it's so depressing sometimes. All of these dogs were from good breeding (different breeders, too). So far my mix is very healthy and happy, but when Raven's time comes, I think that I will adopt another rescue "mutt!"


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## KMH

Late to the conversation, but I'll give my 2 cents worth regardless. There comes a time when the greatest love you have for your dog is shown in euthanasia. When you do it because it's going to end their pain, anguish, anxiety. And if you have a dangerous dog and love it do it the favor of putting it to sleep before someone is hurt and the decision is taken away from you. I'd rather sit with my hand on their shoulder than see them taken away knowing they don't know why and can't possibly understand. 

I apologize if this has already been mentioned, I only read thru page 5. It just struck me that you shouldn't feel bad for doing the best you can for them.


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## G-burg

It's never an easy thing to day when it comes to letting our dogs go, whatever the circumstances may be..

I wish you much peace in what ever decision you make.


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## KristiM

We said goodbye to Havoc last night. He became very, very ill on Thursday night/Friday morning. Threw up his undigested dinner and lots of water. In the morning on Friday he was very lethargic, could barely walk. At first the way he looked I thought maybe he had been poisoned, but I am quite sure I was just seeing the full extent of the damage in his spine. He was sick and not able to tough it out and hide how bad his back really was. He was not able to hold down water all day Friday, he would drink a bit and 20 minutes later it would all come back up. He was so sick, and I knew that even though he was THAT sick treating him would be impossible. Friday night we decided to take him to emergency and have him euthanized. As incredibly sick as he was, he still fought the vet. Tough little SOB right to the end. 

I still can't get over just how sick he was, the only thing that makes sense is a blockage. He ate a lot of non food items, I always kinda knew it would come back to bite him in the butt one day. 

I am incredibly sad and angry that he just did not have a fair shot at life. It's just not fair. I will always remember him as the craziest, toughest, most devoted dog I have ever met. He was a brat, but the love he had for his family was the strongest I have ever felt. He was just too super for this world.

Live fast. Die young. That's just the way he rolled.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I'm so sorry, Kristi.  It really isn't fair, either to him or to you and your husband. He's at peace now, and I hope you can find some yourself too. :hugs:


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## wolfstraum

I am so sorry Kristi    .....no matter what external issues there were, you and your husband and Havoc all loved each other...it is almost like the decision was taken out of your hands and it was no longer questionable....it does sound like a foreign object in his digestive system....

He will always be in your heart....run free of pain and anger at the bridge Havoc!!! :rip:

<<<hugs>>>

Lee


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## Shade

I'm so sorry . At least he's free of pain now and he's able to be himself without restrictions :hugs: RIP Havoc


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## KristiM

Thank you Debbie, Lee and Shanna.

The decision really was kind of taken away from us, poor guy, just wasn't meant to be. I have racked my brain and searched my house trying to figure out what he could have gotten into. Somehow I feel like this should be my fault and I'm super worried that he got into something that Odin could get into. But the only thing I have found is one of those skineez toys, half missing.... its the only thing that makes sense.


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## selzer

I'm sorry for your loss. 

The only positive thing I think that can be said about having a challenging dog is that living with them teaches us a lot. I hope that having this guy will make each stage with your next pup that much more of a joy. Besides ensuring that there isn't anything harmful around to your other critters, don't blame yourself about what happened to this guy. I think you are right, it just wasn't meant to be. You loved him, and did your best by him. One of my puppy owners had a pup that ate his toys. He had a blockage and they had to do surgery on him. He is ok, now, but even toys designed for dogs can be fatal. I am sorry.


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## JakodaCD OA

kristi I am so very sorry for you and your family He was a beautiful boy and you all gave him the best life he could have had..


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