# Bad dysplasia, arthritis, pain... need advice



## kellzey (Apr 12, 2004)

Our GSD import turned 10 last December. 

For the last 3 years or so we've been battling chronic anal fistulas and increasingly worsening arthritis in the back and dysplasia (mostly in the right hip). Two vets have seen him and say he's severe.

He's been on glucosamine/chondroitin supplements for the past 3 years, as well as senior Innova.

His weight is down about 7 lbs from his prime (86 now from 93).

We've tried metacam... tramadol.. and now are trying injectibles.. as well as some prednisone and antibiotics.

He's miserable... He's wimpering a lot (at rest). And looking at me sadly. I know he wants me to fix it... we're trying.

He's now also having some bouts of incontinence (peeing uncontrollably in the kitchen)

Mentally, he's all there and a smart and happy dog (outside of the pain issues).

We're running out of ideas and now I'm battling on whether we should consider putting him down... I hate to see him suffering.

I'm going to ask about Adequan injections as well.

I think he's probably too old for hip surgery...

Any ideas/advice.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

It's possible that the peeing is from the pred, if the timing makes sense to you.

What are you feeding?

What brand glucosamine/chondroitin product are you using?

What are you using to treat the fistulas?


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

Try adding vitamin C ... in the powdered form. I get it from super suplements. The actual asorbic acid is better than that esther C. My dogs get 500-1000 mg everyday. 

I could try to explain why, but I would probably just confuse everyone including myself LOL







.. The simplified version is that there are some in the vetrinary comunity that corrolate displasia and human scurvy ... a lack in vita C.

Here are some website to explain WAY better than I could. Notice there have been studies that showed that dogs on vita C and also Prego Bitches on Vita C had a lower number of dysplastic pups regardless of thier hip rating. They also found dysplastic pups on vita C didnt lose thier dysplasia, but did lose a lot of the pain they had.... 

http://friendlygrove.com/Notes/archives/287

http://www.belfield.com/about.php

http://www.belfield.com/pdfs/Hip_dysplasia.pdf

P.S. All of what Lisa said too







... The vita C was just what came to mind first LOL ....


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Karl ELlzey.......as well as some prednisone and antibiotics.
> .................
> .................
> He's now also having some bouts of incontinence (peeing uncontrollably in the kitchen)


I'm so sorry you're going through such a hard time. 

I really don't have the greatest advice other than just this one thought. When we had our dog Dalton on prednisone he also had bouts of incontinence. In fact, he lost all control of his back end. Our vet said it was due to the prednisone. As soon as we took him off the incontinence went away. 

This may not be an option for you.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I have found Ester C to be far superior to absorbic acid. I use 2000mg/day of Ester C for my dogs with arthritis or other joint problems. You need to work up to that gradually though. For Chama I had her on a double dose of Springtime Longevity and a loading dose of Cetyl M Advanced Joint Support. I also gave her either Willow Bark at night or this product by Only Natural Pet called Get up and Go. When she had additional pain I gave her a combo homeopathic remedy called Arnicalm Arthritis. Grain free food is also important.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: smerryThe actual asorbic acid is better than that esther C. My dogs get 500-1000 mg everyday.


smerry - was this found in your personal experience, or did you read it? because i forget where/why, but i was under the same impression, however the results with my dog were the opposite. not only did the asorbic powder cause her an upset stomach... i also did not notice the change that i've seen after switching to the ester-c.


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## kellzey (Apr 12, 2004)

Incontinece started before the prednisone.

We have been treating the fistulas with Protopic ointment and cyclosporine (But had to recently discontinue the cyclo due to upset stomach, vommiting, and elevated liver levels).

I can ask about the Vitamin C, but not sure how he'll tolerate it due to a sensitive stomach.

We've tried Metcam for a while too, but no help.


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## kellzey (Apr 12, 2004)

Oh, and thank you.


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

hmmmm 

I have read it/heard it from several breeders out here. what other differences did you see between the two? If it isn't appropriate here, just pm me







I am sincerely curious, since I have just gone off of what some others(who I respect) have told me, and not tried ester c.
















My friends did say that it was important the the ascorbic asid was chelated ... if that makes a difference from the ascorbic acid you were using. My dogs have never had tummy issues with it. But they have iron stomachs. And I have been using it more as a preventative measure than anything else.

I rescind the comment about ascorbic acid being better than esther C as I have obviously not truely compared the two,







I will stick with vita C being good for them though


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Karl ELlzeyIncontinece started before the prednisone.
> 
> We have been treating the fistulas with Protopic ointment and cyclosporine (But had to recently discontinue the cyclo due to upset stomach, vommiting, and elevated liver levels).
> 
> ...


I'm guessing that labs have been run to eliminate the possibility of a urinary tract infection?

What are you feeding?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

smerry-for me, i started with the powder and just 'trusted' it was working... Gia generally has a strong stomach but did not do well no matter how gradually i introduced it. i stopped after a month and noticed no difference in her mobility. i began the ester-c and did not notice any dramatic results until i ran out and stopped giving them to her... over the course of a couple of days it became difficult for her to go up and down the stairs and well as rising from her bed. once i restarted - she was back to normal... as good as normal is at this point - she has severe HD in both hips, so its well past a preventative measure for us.



> Originally Posted By: LisaTWhat are you feeding?


innova senior


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I used absorbic acid and noticed no difference. However Ester C made a huge difference for all of my dogs. And the ones with sensitive stomachs were able to tolerate it without a problem. From what I've read it is much easier for the body to use. 

I would get rid of the Senior food. Seniors foods have more grains in them and grains aggravate arthritis. Grains can also aggravate urinary issues. Senior dogs generally do best on a diet with low or no grains and good quality protein.


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

Good to know . I am glad the esther C works for you. Hugs to your gia. I couldnt imagine living as a dysplastic person. I am grateful every day that my dogs do not have hd.


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

http://www.yourdoghealth.com/dog_ester-c_study.htm

Just found this It talks about the difference between ester c and normal vita c .... 

hmmmmm ... brain is working too hard LOL


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Belfield actually recommends sodium ascorbate, which is what I use here, only because my dogs tolerate it best.


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTBelfield actually recommends sodium ascorbate, which is what I use here, only because my dogs tolerate it best.


K ...now I think I am confusing myself ... 

Is ascorbic Acid different than sodium ascorbate?
That is what I use ....Sodium Ascorbate, I mean. On the bottle it says it is buffered vita C .... My dogs have never had a problem with it. The buffered/chelated part is what I was always told to make sure I got.

:head hurting:







LOL


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Ascorbic acid is regular vit c, ester C is chelated with calcium, sodium ascorbate chelated with sodium.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Karl, do you know what has caused the weight loss? How are the stools?


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

sodium ascorbate is what I use ... I have never had any prob. with it ...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Karl ELlzeysenior Innova










I keep asking, and you already said it!

Well, for one, I would start some cetyl-myristoleate. Here's a thread about it: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729111&page=1#Post729111 and here is the one that I highly recommend: http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-True-CMO-Cetyl-Myristoleate

I think it will help the joints, the muscles, and should also help the fistula. CMO is really good at helping with inflammation, and inflammation caused by the immune system, which contributes to the fistula.

Have you tried a different protein for your boy? I believe that many dogs, after years of chicken and/or turkey, have an issue with it, and the barley in it many dogs also react to it. For the fistula, single protein, single carb source is recommended. Here is the yahoo list for the fistula if you are interested: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/PF-L/ You will see me on that list too









For the digestive tract, for now, I would be giving some probiotics, and some l-glutamine, away from meals.

What antibiotic are you using? Has the vet looked at any of the discharge from the fistula to determine if there is bacteria in there, or fungal stuff?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Karl ELlzeysenior Innova
> ...


so did i


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

You have probably already tried some of this, but here is what I did for my dogs with dysplasia/arthritis which seemed to help. My Golden had DJD, arthritis and severe bridging spinal spondylosis and my terrier had severe hip dysplasia (had FHO surgery which helped alleviate the pain but was not 100% effective) and arthritis.
Most of this was recommended either by my regular vet or the rehabilitation/holistic vet where we did the hydrotherapy and acupuncture.

-Grain-free potato-free diet
-Syn-Flex joint supplement
-Vitamin C
-Fish oil
-Dog Gone Pain supplement (for pain only, I didn't give it constantly)
-DLPA
-water treadmill hydrotherapy
-acupuncture
-Duralactin

I also used an antioxidant supplement and digestive enyzyme/probiotic supplement and eventually Metacam as needed.


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## kellzey (Apr 12, 2004)

Yes, he has gotten fish (salmon) oil. Nupro Joint Support Formula.

He has continued to worsen.

He is not eating, drinking little, if any. Drooling at the mouth excessively. He paced in the room last night for hours. He is not letting me rub his tummy, or greating me when I come home. He is sad.

He is getting Buprenhophine injections (we are administering), but not seeing any changes.

Tonight he refused his favorites... chicken breast and a hamburger patty.

We spoke to his trainer last night. He re-affirmed that dogs are great at masking pain... and they usually exhibit it (whining and wimpering) when they cannot take it any longer.

So we are going to call his vet in the morning and see if he agrees with us to put him down. 

At 10 years, with severy dysplastic hip, and a fistula that he cannot tolerate Cyclosporine for... we don't have many choices (if any left).

As my trainer stated, we can't fix what he has, only put a bandaid on it.

I want to do right by my boy... sigh. Very tough to deal with.

Thanks,

Karl


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm so sorry. I wonder if the lack of appetite and drooling is due to nausea, perhaps a side effect from one of the meds? I hope that whatever your decision you and your dog will find peace.


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## kellzey (Apr 12, 2004)

Yeah, i checked on the meds and drooling wasn't a posted side-affect.

He lost bowel control (after I posted too) and was wimpering excessively. We gave him his pain meds early.

We have been giving him Pepcid AC (when he would eat), as well as an appetite stimulant (whatever they give to chemo patients). He is obviously not wanting to eat.

Long night ahead.

Thanks,

K


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I've been in your shoes and it is really tough. Big hugs going out to you and your family.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I am so sorry


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

I'm sorry. God knows I fought to keep my last dog alive.best to you.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

So sorry to read your story, sometimes the most loving thing we can do is the hardest.


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## kellzey (Apr 12, 2004)

Thanks everyone. My boy peacefully crossed the bridge this morning. His trainer and his vet agreed that this was the right thing to do.

I appreciate the kind words.

Karl


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