# I went to my 1st SchH event and was left highly dissappointed.



## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

I drove out to Cocoa Beach on Fri for trails since I knew someone competing and wanted to be there for support. He was looking to title in his SchH III. Anyhow, the weather was crappy and caused a 2.5 hr rain delay. BH was 1st and there were 3 dogs. then SchH1 and the III since there were no II's. Anyhow, after each set the judge and apprentice talked for 15 min before giving the scores. It was truely obnoxious. I left at 11:30pm and thy had only finished all the OB. They were going to start the BH distraction portion and then protection. I guess my aquaintance didnt leave until 2am...

Having trials last so long, doesnt that effect the dog? My friend scored very well, but not as well as expected. I just didnt understand a 15 min chat with the apprentice after each set...sometimes longer then 15 min.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yes, SchH trials are usually pretty long. Though I'd have to imagine that if they didn't get finished with OB until close to midnight, this must have been a night trial. We tend to have daytime trials here in MI, but to start at dawn and not be finished until close to dinner time isn't unusual. Yes, it's a long day for the dogs but really that's part of the point of a 3 phase sport testing if the dogs can work not just in terms of doing vastly different things on the same day, but in being able to handle a long day with a lot of pressure throughout that day.

As far as all the talking, well I guess I look at it this way. An apprentice judge is one day likely going to become a real judge. And I'd much rather have that person well educated before that happens than have them just go out and start judging dogs. So if the presiding judge is spending time talking with the apprentice, presumably educating that person, on each dog, comparing notes and scores to make sure the apprentice didn't miss anything and gets good training from his mentor, then I'm perfectly fine with that. That's the whole point of an apprentice program. If it were really 15 minutes, that's probably excessive. I've trialed where there have been apprentice judges and it always takes longer while they discuss things, and that's never bothered me. Never taken 15 minutes, but maybe this mentor was being really thorough, or the apprentice had a lot of questions. Either way, I don't see how making sure the next generation of judges is well taught is a bad thing and if that means a little inconvenience to people now, so be it. Anyone who's trialing under that judge in the future will no doubt appreciate that someone took the time to teach them.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Shutzhund isn't really a good spectator sport. It's like a college film festival: You go and sit through it because your friend has an entry or because you want to learn about dogs/filmmaking, but it's not something you'd just go pay money to see and be entertained.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Emoore said:


> The purpose of a trial is to evaluate and train the next generation of dogs, handlers, and judges, not to be entertaining to spectators.


True that! For spectators, the best thing to do is purchase a video of the trial, with the boring parts edited out.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I edited my original post. I thought it sounded snarky. I'm on an endless quest to sound less snarky on internet forums.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

As someone who has sat through long 3 days National events , 12 hour training days and a 4 day world event, I don't find SchH boring. Of course when I showed horses I used to drive 1.5 hours back and forth each day for 3-4 days to watch an event.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

I knew it could be boring, but the debriefs were much longer then the actual dog activity. Even people who have competed said it was extremely excessive. We broke out the stop watch on 2 fairly clean runs and they took 15 min. The problem runs, the judges talked for 20+ min, meanwhile causing the competing dags to lay in the wet grass that had red ants b/c it rained so much. The judge was good and observes a lot, but knowing the event was already delayed 2.5 hours, I would think the apprentice would do more observation, since there were 2 more days of trials still to come and learn from.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

DolphinGirl said:


> I knew it could be boring, but the debriefs were much longer then the actual dog activity. Even people who have competed said it was extremely excessive. We broke out the stop watch on 2 fairly clean runs and they took 15 min. The problem runs, the judges talked for 20+ min, meanwhile causing the competing dags to lay in the wet grass that had red ants b/c it rained so much. The judge was good and observes a lot, but knowing the event was already delayed 2.5 hours, I would think the apprentice would do more observation, since there were 2 more days of trials still to come and learn from.


I was hoping that Chris and Lisa's excellent posts would get through to you, but you obviously need things explained to you in an explicit manner. So here we go... 

** comments removed by Admin**

Finally, please do yourself a favor and the next time you go to a trial. Sit down and be quiet. Watch the trial. Then ask questions to those involved. Ask the apprentice about the processes to become a judge. Talk to the judge about your concerns about the ants. Ask other spectators about dogs. But let go of the way you think things should be, and try to figure out why things are the way that they are. ***** comments removed by Admin**

Have a nice day.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Really Fast, could you have explained it any sweeter?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

It's amazing how much you can learn from LISTENING to what people have to say. If you know nothing about SchH, there is very little you will discern from watching. It is the conversation about the performance (in training and trial) that will enhance your knowledge. 

It might make some good "ooohing and awwiiing" to watch a long bite, but unless you know what just happening it's nothing more than that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Shoot, just go to a day of training and you get that and more...a trial is called a trial for a reason


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the crowd is on their feet... Dolphingirl just took a vivious
pounding to the head and the body... there's 15 seconds
left, Dolphingirl knees just buckled... she has to get off the ropes...
Fast is coming on fast... 



Fast said:


> I was hoping that Chris and Lisa's excellent posts would get through to you, but you obviously need things explained to you in an explicit manner. So here we go...
> 
> ** removed by Admin**
> 
> ...


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

I am not saying that I know all there is to know like FAST apparently does. I did come to watch and listen and I had my trainer there as well as supporting someone I knew going for thier title. I was talking to others there and even helped out as part of the "crowd" when the people who were suppose to be the crowd bailed. I didnt expect it to be all ohhs and awws...but I did question the length of time they talked. 

I was a bit frustrated b/c I didnt know what to expect and would have liked to see the whole thing to get a better understanding. However, I had to bail at 11:30 for my own dogs and work at 6am. 

Here is a comment from someone who competes that I know that was there the next night, who originally responded as y'all.....

Ok: I recant what I said before about the judge/apprentice meetings on the trial field. I guess It was a case of "you had to be there" to really understand the time delays. 
Well, I was there last night, and judge/apprentice conferences after every single team were agonizingly long - unnecessarily long. Incredibly long. 
I am stepping down from my high horse and totally agreeing that those delays were excessive.
I have been in trials with apprentices on the field, and am used to perhaps a 20-30 second conference before your critique and score. 10-15 minutes per team last night (and Friday night) was ridiculous.
With the exception of that, however, it was a very well run event. 
Must write ****** and see if this apprentice thing can be addressed.
Sorry to be so wordy and rambling, but wanted apologize for my previous uninformed reply. I really felt your frustration last night! Grrrrrr!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well if it makes you feel any better, a few weeks ago I took a dog to an ATTS test. I pre-entered and was hoping to go early, but it looked like the host club put all their entries first (ok, fair enough). We were supposed to start at 11am and I was in the 10th spot. The test itself takes *maybe* two minutes. We arrive a bit early to check in and everything looked organized and ready. Ha! We started really late (not sure why). Like this SchH trial there was one judge and then two other people apprenticing. After every test they discussed forEver. Then one of the apprentices went to use the restroom and ended up being taken to the ER because she was not feeling well (elderly woman). This was only two dogs in and we were already like 1.5 hours behind. Luckily there was someone else qualified to step in as the second apprentice, but that involved changing some paperwork. Then we had issues with volunteers not performing their tasks correctly. A stick broke and it took and elderly gentleman about 15 minutes to pick up a new one and bring it across the field (at which point my friend - who was slated to go last - went into the woods and began cutting lots of extra sticks to avoid this delay). Then someone else insisted on water. I found out they wanted to take a long break for lunch and begged one of the apprentices to at least let me go before lunch. It took forever and wasted a really nice day weather-wise but this is not even a rare experience as far as dog trials go. I have not been to many SchH trials but I have been to/in dozens of other shows and trials. At one of Nikon's UKC shows we were in the conformation ring after midnight. Then ironically the next day we did the same amount of shows in the same venue and were out before lunch. You just never know. I would not hold this experience against SchH trials specifically. It is just the nature of dog events in general.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Yes, SchH trials are usually pretty long. Though I'd have to imagine that if they didn't get finished with OB until close to midnight, this must have been a night trial. We tend to have daytime trials here in MI, but to start at dawn and not be finished until close to dinner time isn't unusual. Yes, it's a long day for the dogs but really that's part of the point of a 3 phase sport testing if the dogs can work not just in terms of doing vastly different things on the same day, but in being able to handle a long day with a lot of pressure throughout that day.
> 
> As far as all the talking, well I guess I look at it this way. An apprentice judge is one day likely going to become a real judge. And I'd much rather have that person well educated before that happens than have them just go out and start judging dogs. So if the presiding judge is spending time talking with the apprentice, presumably educating that person, on each dog, comparing notes and scores to make sure the apprentice didn't miss anything and gets good training from his mentor, then I'm perfectly fine with that. That's the whole point of an apprentice program. If it were really 15 minutes, that's probably excessive. I've trialed where there have been apprentice judges and it always takes longer while they discuss things, and that's never bothered me. Never taken 15 minutes, but maybe this mentor was being really thorough, or the apprentice had a lot of questions. Either way, I don't see how making sure the next generation of judges is well taught is a bad thing and if that means a little inconvenience to people now, so be it. Anyone who's trialing under that judge in the future will no doubt appreciate that someone took the time to teach them.


BTW, Chris, thank you for that explaination. When I left the field I was thinking I saw my aquinance's dog not act 100% the way I have seen him in training. (I have trained with him in mornings and nights (6-8pm)). The judge commented on several dogs that they didnt have the energy level they should. I was wondering if the late hours, etc are the reasons for the differences? I understand for the level he was competing, it is required to be in different atmophere then a training one, but what about a level 1 or BH...same idea? 

As for this dog I was watching...he scored an 85 in OB after losing 10pts breaking his stay when the starter pistol sounded for the other dog. He scored a 90 in protection. I watched a video of his protection and he missed a blind and his bitework looked kinda flat. All in all he did great and the judge did comment that this is what a SchH III dog should look like.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Well if it makes you feel any better, a few weeks ago I took a dog to an ATTS test. I pre-entered and was hoping to go early, but it looked like the host club put all their entries first (ok, fair enough). We were supposed to start at 11am and I was in the 10th spot. The test itself takes *maybe* two minutes. We arrive a bit early to check in and everything looked organized and ready. Ha! We started really late (not sure why). Like this SchH trial there was one judge and then two other people apprenticing. After every test they discussed forEver. Then one of the apprentices went to use the restroom and ended up being taken to the ER because she was not feeling well (elderly woman). This was only two dogs in and we were already like 1.5 hours behind. Luckily there was someone else qualified to step in as the second apprentice, but that involved changing some paperwork. Then we had issues with volunteers not performing their tasks correctly. A stick broke and it took and elderly gentleman about 15 minutes to pick up a new one and bring it across the field (at which point my friend - who was slated to go last - went into the woods and began cutting lots of extra sticks to avoid this delay). Then someone else insisted on water. I found out they wanted to take a long break for lunch and begged one of the apprentices to at least let me go before lunch. It took forever and wasted a really nice day weather-wise but this is not even a rare experience as far as dog trials go. I have not been to many SchH trials but I have been to/in dozens of other shows and trials. At one of Nikon's UKC shows we were in the conformation ring after midnight. Then ironically the next day we did the same amount of shows in the same venue and were out before lunch. You just never know. I would not hold this experience against SchH trials specifically. It is just the nature of dog events in general.


Thanks. I do feel more prepared for the next one. I am not holding it against SchH. I am just chaulking it up to a learning experience. (As for the time delays...since I am a trainer of trainers/"judges" outside the dog world, I had my own opinions) I am actually more turned off by the sport from the reaction/comments of FAST and doggiedad.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Honestly what you describe does sound long to me, but that's often the nature of these types of events, to be expected. My husband and I have a rule that if I'm off to a dog event he's not allowed to ask how long it will be or when I'll be home. As others said (nicely or not), most dog trials are not really good spectator events. They often bore me too, even SchH trials sometimes, even without apprentice judges. But, I still love it and do it. The UKC Premier is my favorite event both to watch and to participate in because it is PACKED with about a dozen different things running at once, so if something gets boring or is moving slow you can just move on.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

DolphinGirl said:


> I was wondering if the late hours, etc are the reasons for the differences? I understand for the level he was competing, it is required to be in different atmophere then a training one, but what about a level 1 or BH...same idea?


The late hours/long day may well be the reason, but it may also just be the stress of trialing. Trialing is very different than training because the handler has no control over the time and place of the trial. In training the handler can control everything and most only bring out their dog at the optimum time. The same goes at all levels.

There is schutzhund cliche. "My dog has never done that before". You will hear it at almost every trial. Many have never trained their dog in all three phases on the same day. Also the nerves of the handler tend to run down the leash and make the dog do weird stuff. There are dozens of reasons why dogs don't trial like they train. But that's the reason to trial.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Fast said:


> There is schutzhund cliche. "My dog has never done that before". You will hear it at almost every trial. *Many have never trained their dog in all three phases on the same day*. Also the nerves of the handler tend to run down the leash and make the dog do weird stuff. There are dozens of reasons why dogs don't trial like they train. But that's the reason to trial.


Our group always does all three phases on training day. Though we don't do mock trials while training, unless a trial is coming up. Nerves.....:crazy: do they ever go away?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> Our group always does all three phases on training day. Though we don't do mock trials while training, unless a trial is coming up. Nerves.....:crazy: do they ever go away?


Try breaking a molar the day before trial and to see your dog act as if you are going to beat her all the routine...:crazy:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

:help:Because you were frowning with a sloppy grin?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

DolphinGirl said:


> I am actually more turned off by the sport from the reaction/comments of FAST and doggiedad.


** comments removed by Admin**


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> Our group always does all three phases on training day. Though we don't do mock trials while training, unless a trial is coming up. Nerves.....:crazy: do they ever go away?


Only when you don't care anymore. And then it's time to quit.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Our group always does all three phases on training day. Though we don't do mock trials while training, unless a trial is coming up. Nerves.....:crazy: do they ever go away?


Yup...all 3 are always trained for when we train. To keep the dog's anticipation down, I believe John doesn't always down/sit or stand him on the "12th step." He always changes the step count.


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## Bcannie (Jul 8, 2009)

Catu said:


> Try breaking a molar the day before trial and to see your dog act as if you are going to beat her all the routine...:crazy:


What happened to the broken molar? Did you end up getting it fixed or pulled? Did it affect training down the road?


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

Fast said:


> ** comment removed by Admin**
> 
> 
> > Didn't say it would stop me from learning/competing in the sport...just left a negative opinion....
> ...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

_



I am actually more turned off by the sport from the reaction/comments of FAST and doggiedad.

Click to expand...

You have not seen the comments on a German working dog forum then. This is harmless. _

_People think this forum is rough? _

_There are plenty of SchH people out there trying to be all rough and tough... don't take it serious. Always take it with a grain of salt and laugh about it. Picture the two guys in pink underwear, a pink brah and polka dotted socks and high heels while they trial their dogs and let them stand on the soap box to rant... _

_There are many, many dramaqueens and kings out there, ESPECIALLY in the competition world that are trying to start **** with everybody just for the heck of it._


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> _You have not seen the comments on a German working dog forum then. This is harmless. _
> 
> _People think this forum is rough? _
> 
> _There are plenty of SchH people out there trying to be all rough and tough... don't take it serious. Always take it with a grain of salt and laugh about it. Picture the two guys in pink underwear, a pink brah and polka dotted socks and let him stand on the soap box to rant... _


No, not that rough...but thanks for making me LMAO.:laugh: I just try to promote my sports/hobbies to the uninformed.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Bcannie said:


> What happened to the broken molar? Did you end up getting it fixed or pulled? Did it affect training down the road?


I had to get it pulled in the emergency room the following day. I was in a lot of pain and that seriously affected Diabla DURING the trial, but not afterwards. I also went into the field when the trial ended only to play for a while.

Yet we are talking of a dog I had to put 4 emergency stitches without anesthesia by myself, screamed and struggled like a pig, but as soon as I released brought me her ball to play. She is a bit soft for my taste and handler sensitive, but her resilience goes through the roof.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Just wanted to weigh in on the original comments by DolphinGirl and say that Chris had a very good read on the whole situation, even from half-way across the country.

Also, just so people know the event it was the Open Trial on Friday night and was followed by the DVG SEKG Regionals on Saturday night. All tracking occurred on Sunday morning. The results are not yet up on the host club's website: http://www.spacecoastschutzhundclub.com/

Just so no one gets confused or thinks I may have a "horse in the race," I am neither a DVG member nor a member of SCSC. 

I must first say, DolphinGirl I am glad that you attended the Open Trial on Friday night. We encouraged all of our members to attend, especially those that are new and had not seen a trial - it is an experience.

I was not there on Friday night, but heard from members of our club and other friends that attended the event that it was packed - more spectators came to the Open than came to the DVG Regionals the next night. Just for some perspective, on Saturday night there had to be at least 40 cars with many more people and dogs than cars. Not too shabby for an event with torrential downpours in the forecast.

On Friday, I believe the trial was supposed to start at 6:00 or 7:00, but got delayed that 2.5 hours because the field would have been unusable and there was lightning in the area. It had been pouring daily on the field, and there appeared to be an attempt at drainage (new backhoe work into a pond), but the field was still tough. Even the next day, when there was no rain delay (the weather was kind enough to cease raining right at trial start), most competitors were jumping over or stepping in puddles. However, the delay was likely very appropriate and at the judge's discretion. While I do tell all new club members that in Schutzhund "If it's raining, we are still training," no one likes to be a human lightning-rod either.

Now as the for the review time - you said it yourself in your post "after each set the judge _*and apprentice*_ talked for 15 min before giving the scores." It's that whole apprentice thing. Again, no horse in that race either, as I train with neither the judge nor the apprentice, and I too had to sit through it all on Saturday night. Chris hit the nail on the head in her evaluation of the process and I have little to add.

However, DolphinGirl, this was your first time watching a Schutzhund trial, so I will go out on a limb and guess you are new to the sport. And as a new person, you should appreciate that the sport only can continue and get better by getting new people involved. I know that I want the sport to continue, to grow, and do think that new people are an asset and not a hindrance to the sport.

Now, I happen to know that particular apprentice likely has more accomplishments than any of the competitors that showed and any of the spectators (except perhaps one spectator), but she is still new to judging, so this was a great weekend for her to get in the necessary time through both the Open Trial and the Regional (two trials in one weekend). The more time she gets in, the faster/easier it is for her to become a judge.

Now why does her becoming a judge matter? Off the top of my head I can think of in Florida one DVG judge and one USA judge, so more judges mean more ability for us to have trials and at a likely decreased cost if the judge does not have to travel a great distance. I like a lot of judges from all over the country (and from Canada), but having a judge within your state or relatively close helps the community and the clubs.

Now, did I get rained on? Yes. Did I get my feet soaked? Yes. Did I too get eaten alive by fire ants that sought the high ground on my bare ankles? Yes. Did I drive hours each way to subject myself to all of this by choice? Yes. But was this a good trial that also helped the sport? Yes.

I would like to conclude by saying that the host club did a great job with what they were dealt (weather and otherwise), the helpers did a safe job and applied appropriate pressure, the judge was fair, and, perhaps the biggest compliment and something many of us wrestle with at trial time, the dogs and handlers showed courage to step from behind their keyboards and compete.


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

Thank you JKlatsky. I am enjoying the training I have been doing. My GSD is too soft for the sport...he's more the "class clown" so I have taken in one of my trainer's pups and am working him. It is a great experience and and I am glad I was there. I really wish I could have been there for the whole thing. Yes, there were several people there on Fri night, so there wasnt a lack of people to talk to and ask questions.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

JKlatsky, so good to see you back on the board! I miss your posts! Hope all is well with you and yours.


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