# czech temperament , guard duty



## oldskoolsmg

Have you any experience with the czech line dogs and what were their personalities and temperaments like?
do they make good family protectors and guards, living at home with the family.

I have a six month old czech female and she is very alert at home. sometimes she will bark at strange noises or when the door knocks but most of the time she won't.

she is super active and always seems to be on the go. she loves children/ raised with them.
she has high prey drive, She also loves to be around the family and gets very stressed if any of us has to leave the house or even go into a shop without her.

How were the czech dogs you know ?


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## ausdland

Too soon to tell, she's only 14 months old, super happy and sweet. Yes she barks when the door bell rings and when she hears an unusual noise in the backyard, but I think she'd lick a would be burglar to death. I wanted a sweet dog and that's what I got from her breeder. There are different personalities within each litter. I don't think having a Czech lineage has much to do with the dog's personality. Temperament is another matter.


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## oldskoolsmg

ausdland said:


> Too soon to tell, she's only 14 months old, super happy and sweet. Yes she barks when the door bell rings and when she hears an unusual noise in the backyard, but I think she'd lick a would be burglar to death. I wanted a sweet dog and that's what I got from her breeder. There are different personalities within each litter. I don't think having a Czech lineage has much to do with the dog's personality. Temperament is another matter.


I would of thought the czech lines to be slightly more suspicious because the czech history of border patrol work, Maybe i'm wrong. I do like happy loveable family dogs but also wanted a dog that would keep my family safe when I work night shifts. Its nice to hear peoples opinions.


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## ausdland

I suppose that's what they were bred for but temperaments and personalities vary. My pup is 1/2 Czech. I suppose you could avoid all contact with people other than your family. As far as keeping your family safe at night, I'm sure your dog will at least bark if someone were to enter your home, which is at least a deterrent. Maybe ask the folks that do IPO/Schutzhund how they develop defense drive, but I kind of think the dog will have that or not. Not sure if mine will. She sure doesn't have it now.

As far as getting stressed when someone in your family leaves: I hope your puppy is spending time by herself in a crate or run otherwise she may develop separation anxiety if she doesn't have it already.


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## Slamdunc

oldskoolsmg said:


> I would of thought the czech lines to be slightly more suspicious because the czech history of border patrol work, Maybe i'm wrong. I do like happy loveable family dogs but also wanted a dog that would keep my family safe when I work night shifts. Its nice to hear peoples opinions.


Can you post a link to the pedigree? Talking about "czech dogs" in general is very vague and hard to answer temperament questions. Some people hype czech dogs to sell them and make them a mystical, magical GSD. It is much more helpful to discuss dogs in a pedigree and get some insight to what your dog may be like. While I like czech GSD's, I really like a WGWL / Czech mix.


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## ausdland

Slamdunc said:


> Can you post a link to the pedigree? Talking about "czech dogs" in general is very vague and hard to answer temperament questions. Some people hype czech dogs to sell them and make them a mystical, magical GSD. It is much more helpful to discuss dogs in a pedigree and get some insight to what your dog may be like. While I like czech GSD's, I really like a WGWL / Czech mix.


How can you tell a puppy's potential for defense drive/protection from its pedigree?


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## Nigel

Slamdunc said:


> Can you post a link to the pedigree? Talking about "czech dogs" in general is very vague and hard to answer temperament questions. Some people hype czech dogs to sell them and make them a mystical, magical GSD. It is much more helpful to discuss dogs in a pedigree and get some insight to what your dog may be like. *While I like czech GSD's, I really like a WGWL / Czech mix.*


Why do you like that mix? We only have half of our guys pedigree, but we suspect this might be what he is.


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## oldskoolsmg

Slamdunc said:


> Can you post a link to the pedigree? Talking about "czech dogs" in general is very vague and hard to answer temperament questions. Some people hype czech dogs to sell them and make them a mystical, magical GSD. It is much more helpful to discuss dogs in a pedigree and get some insight to what your dog may be like. While I like czech GSD's, I really like a WGWL / Czech mix.


Ok - here are the pedigrees of my puppies parents .

Sire Ajax Nelari

Dam A-Schelli Junior Od Lu?enské skály


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## oldskoolsmg

My dog never got registered, however I did get to meet both of her parents and also take photos of their pedigrees so i'm 100% sure she is what she is. She looks just like her parents. 

sire Ajax Nelari

Dam A-Schelli Junior Od Lu?enské skály


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## wolfstraum

Your dog is a mix of many origins!


Looking first at dam - the sire is interesting because Stribrneho Kamene (SK) used a DDR male on an Ellute (German x Belgian) daughter who goes to the dog Bemoan Bee who was bred in the States out of little known lines....Jana (owner of SK) has really reached beyond her geographic area in her breeding, often bringing WGWL and BWL into her litters. The dam of the dam is pretty solidly Czech lines....with "old" lines in the back...

Now the sire - top again a mix of WGWL, some Belgian, and Czech, same with his mother who is more WGWL



Personally - this does not look like a litter that has been planned for any goal.....breeder owns two dogs so he breeds them - probably does not have full papers on one or the other or papers did not get processed on one imported animal so no able to get papers here with AKC - have seen it happen before....

The comment you made - 

"she is super active and always seems to be on the go. she loves children/ raised with them.
she has high prey drive, She also loves to be around the family and gets very stressed if any of us has to leave the house or even go into a shop without her."

I see elements that I would not use let alone put together for pups whose lives need to be that of a family companion.....the "activeness" is a trait that I interpret as possibly being 'no off switch" - the "stress" as an insecurity at this age which hopefully will fade away as she is socialized and becomes more secure....

Added to this suspicion/insecurity you have many many elements which can bring forward strong aggression as well as "thin" nerves - which then plays into the ability to handle stress which leads to insecurity.....

I would find a reputable trainer and get a very good foundation of obedience on your puppy....with the drive levels you describe, the energy and reaction to stress you perceive, the best thing you can do is get a very good strong level of obedience going forward.....she sounds like a handful   


Lee


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## Moriah

i have an entirely different pedigree on my male GSD. But, I think what Wolfstraum was talking about as far as needing strong obedience is exactly right. My guy has strong defense (and super environmental nerves) coming through his maternal grandfather's line (law enforcement. But thinner nerves are apparent as far as other dogs (reactive) are concerned. My GSD is great with people; he ignores strangers and is friendly to guests. . 

My GSD did not settle well in the house at 6 months, and I did read here that Kirschental dogs were more "active" than other WGSL dogs. Now he has a wonderful off switch at--He'll be 3 in February.

Here's what I learned: In my case, operant conditioning for dog reactivity really did nothing. Went through all positive Reactive Rover classes and worked separately with a certified behaviorist. Nothing changed after about 7 months or so. I received a lot of help at a schutzhund club because the members and training director knew how to handle GSDs.

Then I went to a top GSD trainer and he used an e-collar to train my dog around other dogs. That was the most effective. I understand from reading on the forum that some dogs can get amped up on prong collars. At the Schutzhund club, I had member correct him strongly and he just turned away and did the undesirable behavior again. If I strongly corrected him with a prong correction, he shut down.

The top trainer I went to used an e-collar effectively. He does not shut down. I would never use an e-collar personally without supervision with an expert. I really rarely have to correct with an ecollar as the trainer did all the correcting while I worked the dog in lessons. 

If what Wolfstraum says is true in your case, from my experience working with a good GSD trainer is vital, even if you have to travel. I have a wonderful GSD who is an excellent companion. He is under control around other dogs. He has much better nerves after working with an e-collar. It does not shut down dogs when used properly, but interrupts their thinking. My dog never has had separation anxiety, but dog reactivity. Both are thin nerves.
You have yet to see how your puppy as an adult dog reacts to stressors out in public. That's why you want strong obedience. So you can safely control your girl under stress without barking, lunging, and, please no, biting.


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## WembleyDogsUK

> get a very good strong level of obedience going forward


"good obedience" may end in constant looking into her owner's face, loss of self-initiative in investigating environments and human characters. I agree, that this dog hardly could be called a Czech, still, they are all working dogs. Agility or IPO clubs will do her obedience...


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## cliffson1

The sire of this dog is primarily sport breeding but should have excellent nerves. The dam line has higher suspicion genetics, through mother dam line but with West and East ( from dam sire line) also makes this breeding one in which you can't predict by breeding but rather by individual puppy selected. A wide range of temperament and drives will come out of this litter from puppy to puppy.
Don't worry to much about thin nerves, a lot of people that really don't understand Czech dogs like the ones on your dam's motherline, which take the higher suspicion and hackling up at strange things as puppy as thin nerves, not understanding that in many of these cases, this element leaves the dog with maturity especially if the dog receives good exposures. This pedigree has a lot of strong nerves and strong nerve producing dogs especially if you are looking for male puppy.


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## oldskoolsmg

Thanks for the reply wolfstraum. What lines would you recommend for a good family guardians with lots of suspicion and strong nerves ?


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## oldskoolsmg

cliffson1 said:


> The sire of this dog is primarily sport breeding but should have excellent nerves. The dam line has higher suspicion genetics, through mother dam line but with West and East ( from dam sire line) also makes this breeding one in which you can't predict by breeding but rather by individual puppy selected. A wide range of temperament and drives will come out of this litter from puppy to puppy.
> Don't worry to much about thin nerves, a lot of people that really don't understand Czech dogs like the ones on your dam's motherline, which take the higher suspicion and hackling up at strange things as puppy as thin nerves, not understanding that in many of these cases, this element leaves the dog with maturity especially if the dog receives good exposures. This pedigree has a lot of strong nerves and strong nerve producing dogs especially if you are looking for male puppy.


Thanks cliffson1 However she turns out she's still going to live in a loving family home. For future reference what lines would you recommend as a family dog with strong suspicion and protective instinct ? Thanks.


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## cliffson1

I really like the DDR lines for great family dogs, strong suspicion and protective instincts. Especially the older one from dogs like Held v Ritterberg, Lord v Gleisdreick, Zorro v Lager-Wall, of the stock imported by folks like Joe Kuhn and Mary Coppage.


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## JakodaCD OA

I have/had dogs with the lines cliff mentions above..I had a male that was a grandson of Zorro, and my female has the others not to far back in her pedigree tho she is more czech than ddr..She does possess strong suspicion and protective instincts, but is also an easy (well other than she's an energizer bunny) dog to live with..Because of that "im ready for anything anytime" attitude, she would not have done well lounging around on a couch all day.

My new puppy, is more ddr (parchimer land) with a little czech thrown in , who knows how he'll turn out, he's only 9 wks old so far he's a nice puppy who's already smart as a whip,


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## wolfstraum

WembleyDogsUK said:


> "good obedience" may end in constant looking into her owner's face, loss of self-initiative in investigating environments and human characters. I agree, that this dog hardly could be called a Czech, still, they are all working dogs. Agility or IPO clubs will do her obedience...




You are interpreting my comment of "good obedience" as competition focused heeling - which in this context is totally off the mark.....obedience is far far far more complex than competition focused heeling....

Recall, down, sit, quiet, place - manners - those items are ALL obedience and more what was the comment was to mean



Lee


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## wolfstraum

oldskoolsmg said:


> Thanks for the reply wolfstraum. What lines would you recommend for a good family guardians with lots of suspicion and strong nerves ?




These are qualities more associated with DDR....my breedings are founded in my original mostly DDR female who was 2-5,5 on Lord and I love this aspect that has come through .....the pups that have had more Czech did exhibit some of the suspicion Cliff mentions, and those pups did grow out of this behavior as they matured...


Lee


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## oldskoolsmg

wolfstraum said:


> These are qualities more associated with DDR....my breedings are founded in my original mostly DDR female who was 2-5,5 on Lord and I love this aspect that has come through .....the pups that have had more Czech did exhibit some of the suspicion Cliff mentions, and those pups did grow out of this behavior as they matured...
> 
> 
> Lee





cliffson1 said:


> The sire of this dog is primarily sport breeding but should have excellent nerves. The dam line has higher suspicion genetics, through mother dam line but with West and East ( from dam sire line) also makes this breeding one in which you can't predict by breeding but rather by individual puppy selected. A wide range of temperament and drives will come out of this litter from puppy to puppy.
> Don't worry to much about thin nerves, a lot of people that really don't understand Czech dogs like the ones on your dam's motherline, which take the higher suspicion and hackling up at strange things as puppy as thin nerves, not understanding that in many of these cases, this element leaves the dog with maturity especially if the dog receives good exposures. This pedigree has a lot of strong nerves and strong nerve producing dogs especially if you are looking for male puppy.


Well i'm guessing that she does have fairly strong nerves because it's bonfire night over here in the uk. Just taken her for a good walk and there's fireworks going off all over the place and she hasn't flinched at all. She shows no signs of any fear whatsoever. She just looks as they go up and explode in the sky above her.


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## oldskoolsmg

Thanks for all the help guys. I live in the midlands uk. I will definitely be doing some research into ddr bloodlines. Hopefully I will be able to locate a good ddr breeder to obtain a puppy in the future.


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## carmspack

someone said ""good obedience" may end in constant looking into her owner's face, loss of self-initiative in investigating environments and human characters"

oh boy do I disagree ! 

that is pattern training for sport . How many times do I see this dissolve into thin air the moment the team leaves the ring ? Unfortunately most of the time. I celebrate quietly every time I see a team that has an honest felt mutual appreciation . Too many tricks.

Good obedience is the key to performing , at a distance , making decisions , being able to be directed . There is no loss , there is enhancement .


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## Julian G

wolfstraum said:


> Your dog is a mix of many origins!
> 
> 
> Looking first at dam - the sire is interesting because Stribrneho Kamene (SK) used a DDR male on an Ellute (German x Belgian) daughter who goes to the dog Bemoan Bee who was bred in the States out of little known lines....Jana (owner of SK) has really reached beyond her geographic area in her breeding, often bringing WGWL and BWL into her litters. The dam of the dam is pretty solidly Czech lines....with "old" lines in the back...
> 
> Now the sire - top again a mix of WGWL, some Belgian, and Czech, same with his mother who is more WGWL
> 
> 
> 
> Personally - this does not look like a litter that has been planned for any goal.....breeder owns two dogs so he breeds them - probably does not have full papers on one or the other or papers did not get processed on one imported animal so no able to get papers here with AKC - have seen it happen before....
> 
> The comment you made -
> 
> "she is super active and always seems to be on the go. she loves children/ raised with them.
> she has high prey drive, She also loves to be around the family and gets very stressed if any of us has to leave the house or even go into a shop without her."
> 
> I see elements that I would not use let alone put together for pups whose lives need to be that of a family companion.....the "activeness" is a trait that I interpret as possibly being 'no off switch" - the "stress" as an insecurity at this age which hopefully will fade away as she is socialized and becomes more secure....
> 
> Added to this suspicion/insecurity you have many many elements which can bring forward strong aggression as well as "thin" nerves - which then plays into the ability to handle stress which leads to insecurity.....
> 
> I would find a reputable trainer and get a very good foundation of obedience on your puppy....with the drive levels you describe, the energy and reaction to stress you perceive, the best thing you can do is get a very good strong level of obedience going forward.....she sounds like a handful
> 
> 
> Lee


My belgian do you mean malinois? or is there a belgian GSD dog also?


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## wolfstraum

Julian G said:


> My belgian do you mean malinois? or is there a belgian GSD dog also?


There are GSD kennels in Germany, in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, the Netherlands, Belgian, Austria -etc! When I say she has a mix of Belgian and Czech lines - I am identifying kennels and dog bred at those kennels in different countries


Lee


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## Julian G

From everything I read on the forums, czech lines are supposed to be "quicker" to react, more drivey, kind of like a mal. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## ausdland

Julian G said:


> From everything I read on the forums, czech lines are supposed to be "quicker" to react, more drivey, kind of like a mal. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


That's how my pup is, her sire is Czech. The Mal ppl love her.


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## carmspack

a further comment on obedience and the ability to make independent , self initiated decisions 

this takes you back to early shepherds dogs turn of the 18th century .

CHAPTER II.
OF DOGS AND WOLVES.
Q. Is it necessary, that shepherds should have dogs for driving their flocks?
A. It is to be wished, that shepherds could dispense with them, because they often do much mischief; but they are necessary in countries, where the lands are often sown with corn, and exposed to injury: when sheep stray from the flock, the shepherd can restrain those only, which are near him, and at the distance, at which, he can throw lumps of earth before them with his crook : dogs, therefore, assist the shepherd in driving his flock, and defend it against wolves, when strong enough.

Q. In what countries can a shepherd manage his flock without the aid of dogs?
A. In places, where the land is divided into large enclosures, there is always a great deal of ground in fallow, that is, not sown; a numerous flock can be there conducted without the aid of dogs. Sheep naturally go together; they do not stray from the flock, except they observe a better pasture, than where they are; this allurement is commonly too far from great fallows, to attract them; but if the flock should be on one end of a fallow, near land liable to injury, the shepherd places himself on the side of such lands, to protect them.

Q. What injury can dogs do sheep, and how can they be restrained?
A. Dogs badly disciplined, and too ardent, fly upon the sheep, bite and wound them, and cause abscesses. They frighten the ewes with young, by hurting them, and making them miscarry. They throw down the weak, and such as can hardly follow the flock, or fatigue and fret them, by driving them too fast. To prevent these inconveniences, it is proper to make use of such dogs only in driving as are mild and good natured, and well trained to shew their teeth to wolves, but not to sheep. A good well-bred dog makes them obey without hurting them. Sheep are accustomed to do of themselves, what the dog would compel them to, by force. They withdraw when he approaches, and do not advance on the side, where they see him a sentinel, on the borders of a prohibited ground.

Q. How do dogs serve to direct the course of a flock?
A. When a shepherd drives his flock before him, he can greatly hasten its speed, and that of the sheep, which remain behind ; but he cannot prevent it from going too quick, nor the sheep from running forward too fast, or straying to the right or left; it is necessary, he should have the aid of dogs, to place round the flock, to send forward, or to restrain such as go too fast, to bring up those which remain behind, or stray to the right or left.

Q. How can a shepherd make his dog perform these different manoeuvres?
A. He must train them from their youth, and accustom them to obey his voice. The dog goes on all sides; before the flock to stop it; behind it, to make it go forward; on the CHAPTER II.
OF DOGS AND WOLVES.
Q. Is it necessary, that shepherds should have dogs for driving their flocks?
A. It is to be wished, that shepherds could dispense with them, because they often do much mischief; but they are necessary in countries, where the lands are often sown with corn, and exposed to injury: when sheep stray from the flock, the shepherd can restrain those only, which are near him, and at the distance, at which, he can throw lumps of earth before them with his crook : dogs, therefore, assist the shepherd in driving his flock, and defend it against wolves, when strong enough.

Q. In what countries can a shepherd manage his flock without the aid of dogs?
A. In places, where the land is divided into large enclosures, there is always a great deal of ground in fallow, that is, not sown; a numerous flock can be there conducted without the aid of dogs. Sheep naturally go together; they do not stray from the flock, except they observe a better pasture, than where they are; this allurement is commonly too far from great fallows, to attract them; but if the flock should be on one end of a fallow, near land liable to injury, the shepherd places himself on the side of such lands, to protect them.

Q. What injury can dogs do sheep, and how can they be restrained?
A. Dogs badly disciplined, and too ardent, fly upon the sheep, bite and wound them, and cause abscesses. They frighten the ewes with young, by hurting them, and making them miscarry. They throw down the weak, and such as can hardly follow the flock, or fatigue and fret them, by driving them too fast. To prevent these inconveniences, it is proper to make use of such dogs only in driving as are mild and good natured, and well trained to shew their teeth to wolves, but not to sheep. A good well-bred dog makes them obey without hurting them. Sheep are accustomed to do of themselves, what the dog would compel them to, by force. They withdraw when he approaches, and do not advance on the side, where they see him a sentinel, on the borders of a prohibited ground.

Q. How do dogs serve to direct the course of a flock?
A. When a shepherd drives his flock before him, he can greatly hasten its speed, and that of the sheep, which remain behind ; but he cannot prevent it from going too quick, nor the sheep from running forward too fast, or straying to the right or left; it is necessary, he should have the aid of dogs, to place round the flock, to send forward, or to restrain such as go too fast, to bring up those which remain behind, or stray to the right or left.

Q. How can a shepherd make his dog perform these different manoeuvres?
A. He must train them from their youth, and accustom them to obey his voice. The dog goes on all sides; before the flock to stop it; behind it, to make it go forward; on the ; on the sides, to prevent it from straying: he remains at his post, or returns to the shepherd, according to signs given him, which he understands.

Q. What is necessary to be done to train a shepherd's dog?
A. He must be learnt to stop, to lie down, to bark, to stop barking, to place himself on the side of the flock, to walk round it, and to seize a sheep by the ear, at the command of the shepherd, when given him by the sound of his voice, or by the motion of his hand.

Q. How is a dog taught to stop, or lie down, at command?
A. By pronouncing the word stop, a piece of bread or other food should be given him, which makes him stop, or he is stopped by force ; by repeating this manoeuvre, he is accustomed to stop, at the sound of the voice. To teach him to lie down, when required, it is necessary to caress him, when he does it of himself ; or after having obliged him to it, by taking him by the legs and pronouncing the words lie down ; if he would rise too soon, he is chastised, to make him remain. When he is quiet, they give him something to eat, and by these means he is made to obey.

Q. How do they make a dog bark, or stop barking, at command?
A. The barking of the dog is to be imitated, while he is shown a piece of bread, which is given him, as soon as he has barked, when the word bark is repeated: he is accustomed also to stop barking, when the world silence is pronounced: he is threatened or chastised, when he does not obey, and rewarded and caressed, when he does.
Picture
Picture
Q. At what age is it proper to train dogs for the use of a shepherd?
A. They begin training them when six months old, if they have been well fed, and are strong; but if they are weak, it is necessary to wait, until they are nine months old.



Q. What kind of dogs, and how many, are proper for the service of flocks?
A. All active docile dogs are good for training to the service; those are called dogs of the true breed, whose fathers and mothers are well practised in conducting flocks; it is thought, that dogs, thus bred, are more easily trained, than others. In parts of the country, where the lands are rarely exposed to be injured by sheep, a single dog is sufficient for an hundred sheep; but when they are so exposed, and are near to sheep walks, which the flock often approaches, two, and even three and four dogs are necessary; because two could not stand for the whole day, or for many successive days, the almost continual running, which they are obliged to make, to keep the sheep from the prohibited lands; it would therefore be necessary to have other dogs to relieve, and to give them rest, when much fatigued. In countries where wolves are to be apprehended, it is necessary, that the dogs should be strong enough to resist, and bold enough to hunt them. Dogs well covered with hair, support cold and rain better than others.

this from an translation of a book written in the late 1700's -


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## RZZNSTR

Val is my first Czech GSD. He is quite intense and extremely smart (almost scary smart). He's a year old and even though I've had other GSDs this one is very different but very manageable.


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## Julian G

RZZNSTR said:


> Val is my first Czech GSD. He is quite intense and extremely smart (almost scary smart). He's a year old and even though I've had other GSDs this one is very different but very manageable.


I would be very interested if you can elaborate a bit. I spoke to people with Dutchies and Mals, they give me very similar responses. "Learns very fast" "Is one step ahead of you" "Extremely smart"
I'm interested in the "very manageable" response.


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## Deb

_By pronouncing the word stop, a piece of bread or other food should be given him, which makes him stop, or he is stopped by force ; by repeating this manoeuvre, he is accustomed to stop, at the sound of the voice. To teach him to lie down, when required, it is necessary to caress him, when he does it of himself ; or after having obliged him to it, by taking him by the legs and pronouncing the words lie down ; if he would rise too soon, he is chastised, to make him remain. When he is quiet, they give him something to eat, and by these means he is made to obey._



Very interesting. It sounds like the training methodology is similar to today, with two camps and a combination. Self initiated decisions is often trained out of herding dogs. Every move is choreographed by the shepherd and very seldom do you see a dog work himself. Along the same vein, very few dogs will go beyond what is taught and think for themselves. When I was at a herding clinic my Deja brought the sheep in and then took off. People were shaking their heads and giving me sad looks. Deja was a Rough Collie and most everyone else had Border Collies. I was still very new to herding. The instructor smiled and told them to look, to watch. Deja was running the fence line. She always did that so I had no idea it was unusual. He explained she was doing a 'way back', going back to make sure she had all the sheep, looking for any strays. He said she was a 'thinking dog' and that was rare to see. If you watch dogs herd sheep, they are usually only following directions from the shepherd. You don't often see a shepherd give the dog time to think, to solve a problem. You rarely get to see a dog think. When we came back down here the second time I began working obedience with some schutzhund friends. They wanted to see her herd and set it up for her to herd at a sheep farm. Quite a few of the schutzhund people joined us. Deja gathered up the sheep and brought them to me but one ran off and put up quite a fight with Deja. Then Deja ran back to the herd. The farmer offered to send in his BC. I said wait. Deja separated out one sheep and drove it to the one separated and then brought both back to the herd. The farmer said his BC would never have done that. Deja was thinking, working and making decisions on how to solve the problem. The farmers BCs were mechanical herders, doing only as instructed. You see a lot of mechanical herding. They are breeding herding dogs for instinct but also for biddability. Dogs are not allowed to make self initiated decisions. If they do they are not following what the shepherd tells them to do, they're replaced with ones who will. Guess which one is not being bred? So the dogs they breed are the ones who follow directions only. It looks pretty to see a mechanical herding dog. It gets points. But in the reality of real life, you want a dog that can think. They're getting harder to find.


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## RZZNSTR

Julian G said:


> I would be very interested if you can elaborate a bit. I spoke to people with Dutchies and Mals, they give me very similar responses. "Learns very fast" "Is one step ahead of you" "Extremely smart"
> I'm interested in the "very manageable" response.




He is and has always been a very quick study on obedience and now on his bite work and simply learning the rules of the house. During his training times you can see he's absorbing what you're teaching him like a sponge. It's very cool that he figures what is expected in such a short time. One minute he is being exposed to the new behavior and all of a sudden the light goes on and he's got the basic idea. Then it's just fine tuning what you want him to do. 


There is obedience and there are the rules of the house. When I verbally correct him it usually only takes one command. This make him very manageable both at home and in public. He's 13 months old and although there are those times when he has a bit of a wild hair he is very "user friendly". I consider myself very lucky to have pup that has a higher IQ than most politicians! :grin2:


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