# SchH Confession....



## W.Oliver

I have become jaded....I don't like new people anymore.

I have been training GSDs since 1997 and in SchH since 2008...and I have not accomplished anything in the way of a title....but I have always trained EVERY week, rain or shine, hot or cold, snow or not. Don't get me wrong...someday I'll get around to titling a GSD.

Back in my OB and agility days, new people and their dogs were exciting, refreshing, and enjoyable. Now, after a few years of living the SchH lifestyle, and breaking my backside to accomplish nothing....new people and their freakin' optimism piss me off. I hardly even listen anymore, because as soon as it is raining...they won't be there. When it gets cold...they won't be there. When they can't get their dog to do this or that...they won't be there. When they realize you can't just train at club...they won't be there.

I honestly never thought I would become one of those jaded a-holes...but I am, and I don't care. I just train to train because I love it....and I want the new people to go somewhere else!


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## Catu

I am with you!!!

Every year we receive about 15 new people at the SAR group, one year later one, maybe exceptionally two persons become volunteers.

And in Schutzhund every time I go to train with my friend we invite everybody and at the ends it is always only the two of us.


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## W.Oliver

At our club, we had a new guy coming, and I liked him. After he'd been coming for awhile, I decided to give him one of our club ball caps. Two weeks later he was gone...haven't seen or heard from him in months! 

I like the comers and stayers...it is the comers and goers that make me crazy!


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## BR870

As a "new person" to the sport... I'm glad you're not in my club. I've been out to training every week, rain or shine. It was drizzling and cold last week with 97% humidity, and it was just me, the helper and club director. I work my dog every day, no matter the weather. I get up early to do scent pads and short tracks every morning before leaving out for the day.

Are there some people at club who aren't as commited or aren't there every week? Yup. But not everyone has to have the same level of commitment. Just because someone is new you shouldn't write them off. If you do, you will never have any new people and the sport will die.

You were new once too...


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## elisabeth_00117

Agree!

There are those that we call "sunny trainers" which means they only come out when it's nice outside (or when they know their dogs will be worked first - then leave!). 

Rain, cold, wind, whatever - I am out there.


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## Lilie

Well, I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy now........


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## LaRen616

Lilie said:


> Well, I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy now........


I swear we were just talking about this?


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## W.Oliver

BR870 said:


> As a "new person" to the sport... I'm glad you're not in my club. I've been out to training every week, rain or shine. It was drizzling and cold last week with 97% humidity, and it was just me, the helper and club director. I work my dog every day, no matter the weather. I get up early to do scent pads and short tracks every morning before leaving out for the day.
> 
> Are there some people at club who aren't as commited or aren't there every week? Yup. But not everyone has to have the same level of commitment. Just because someone is new you shouldn't write them off. If you do, you will never have any new people and the sport will die.
> 
> You were new once too...


That is exactly what I mean when I say I've become one of those jaded a-holes!!! I really used to be you! 

But now I see and understand what the ole-timers were so jaded about...the comers and goers waste time and resources, and it just gets old....and it really bums be out when I like the new person and they don't stick with it.


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## BR870

W.Oliver said:


> That is exactly what I mean when I say I've become one of those jaded a-holes!!! I really used to be you!
> 
> But now I see and understand what the ole-timers were so jaded about...the comers and goers waste time and resources, and it just gets old....and it really bums be out when I like the new person and they don't stick with it.


A certain amount of skepticism is warranted and new people do have to pay their dues. But you gotta remember that every one of those "old-timers" was new once too...


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## LaRen616

Sometimes things happen to people, maybe they lose their job and cant afford training anymore, maybe they became ill with cancer or something else, maybe personal issues came up and they cant continue training.

I am sure some of the new people decide that they just dont want to continue training anymore, but I am sure some just cant continue.


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## Zisso

I have to agree about the new comers. We are not an official club, but I went every week to train just to be training. I felt it was a good outlet for myself and my dogs. Every time some one new came along, our trainer would focus on the newbies while the rest of us sat on the back burner so to speak. We were lucky if we could get a question answered, let alone getting help with anything in particular. Sadly, after nearly two years I decided I had wasted enough time waiting for answers to questions and/or help with particular issues, etc and I stopped training. I decided I would rather have FUN with my dog, be it in training or other sports. Worse yet is that I am not alone....there was at one time about 8 of us training our dogs with this guy and n ow there is only one or maybe two newbies.


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## Emoore

Are people supposed to make a commitment to the sport the first time or two they try it? Is there not a "trial period" where they get to decide if they like it or not?


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## Lilie

Emoore said:


> Are people supposed to make a commitment to the sport the first time or two they try it? Is there not a "trial period" where they get to decide if they like it or not?


Or, what happens if they get discouraged and feel that their dog (or them) just isn't good enough? They drop out. When in fact it might have been a simple issue that only experiance can teach.


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## W.Oliver

LaRen616 said:


> Sometimes things happen to people, maybe they lose their job and cant afford training anymore, maybe they became ill with cancer or something else, maybe personal issues came up and they cant continue training.


Certainly reasonable...but it is far more common that folks realize that although the idea of the training is attractive, the level of work/time is more than they are willing to invest.



Zisso said:


> ....Every time some one new came along, our trainer would focus on the newbies while the rest of us sat on the back burner so to speak.


Reading that makes me appreciate my club, as I feel the leaders do a great job in maintaining balance. Don't get me wrong, new folks are welcomed and encouraged, but maybe one out of ten stay for any length of time...so again, I can see now, why the demeanor is so skeptical in so many clubs. 



Lilie said:


> Or, what happens if they get discouraged and feel that their dog (or them) just isn't good enough?


Are you talking about Dayna and I??? LOL You could be! I realized a couple of years ago that Dayna (WGSL) just really didn't have it in her. She tracks nice, OB is OK at best, and her protection is high defense...so maybe we could do a SchH 1..maybe not....but I opted to continue to train and learn in preparation of a working line dog....enter Indy.


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## PaddyD

Lilie said:


> Or, what happens if they get discouraged and feel that their dog (or them) just isn't good enough? They drop out. When in fact it might have been a simple issue that only experiance can teach.


This happens EVERYWHERE in any club, group, forum. There will always be new people trying things and some find that it is not for them for WHATEVER reason. Some get hooked and stick around. So be it. It's not a big deal. The teachers/trainers/leaders are there because they remain optimistic and do the best they can to provide a positive experience (at least that is what they should be doing). It is often difficult for the veterans to remain patient with the process of attrition... and they sometimes get an over-blown opinion of themselves for having stayed when all it is is that they are hooked.


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## bocron

Our club is a core group of about 8-10 people that come week in, week out and have been for a looooong time. When newcomers show up we are very nice, but our core group decided a while ago that we are fine with just us. There is no drama or politics among us, and we are happy the way it is. If someone wants to fit in, they just have to be there. This is one of the main reasons I put together the Getting Started packet. We hand it out to all new prospective members. It drastically reduces the questions and makes it clear that you have to make a commitment if you plan to make any progress. When someone asks me a question I know is addressed in the packet I now tell them to read the packet that I took a bunch of time putting together. If they can't be bothered to read 5 pages, then I write them off. 
Our club has a 6 week trial period, it only costs $25 and gives them time to figure out if they want to really get involved in the sport. Most people are really gung ho for about 3-4 weeks before flaking out. 
Also, my husband and I train professionally and we consider the time at the DVG club as our off time. So I really get irked if someone wants to monopolize our time and have us answer housebreaking or other such questions. I now make it clear to newbies that we DO NOT help with that type of stuff at Schutzhund, get a book or pay us to help you during business hours! I am VERY nice about it, but have gotten very selfish about MY time at the club, I want to have fun and work MY dog.
We have been involved in clubs for years, me about 15 years, my husband titled his first dog in 1981, so we have seen thousands of newbies come and go.


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## cassadee7

Oh, wow. I wonder if people in other dog sports also feel this way about us newbies who are trying things out to see what we/our dogs enjoy and are suited for? I know I am trying a lot of things like agility where there is a core group who trains together and then I come along to try it out. I wonder if they see us newbies as a nuisance and a waste of resources. I am totally new to the dog sport world. I didn't realize people felt this way. So if someday down the road I get a GSD that may be suited to SchH, but I am not sure whether I will enjoy it or be able to commit, how do I find out? I mean, newbies HAVE to try it for a few weeks to figure that out, don't they?


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## Catu

Lilie said:


> Or, what happens if they get discouraged and feel that their dog (or them) just isn't good enough? They drop out. When in fact it might have been a simple issue that only experiance can teach.


Then if people get discouraged that easy, then Schutzhund may not me the sport for them. We have to realize from the very first beginning that SchH is a 3 phases sport that requires a LOT of time and money. if their dog didn't receive a bunch of compliments is a reason to quit, better the first session than later when things start to go uphill.


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## Stella's Mom

W.Oliver said:


> I have become jaded....I don't like new people anymore.
> 
> I have been training GSDs since 1997 and in SchH since 2008...and I have not accomplished anything in the way of a title....but I have always trained EVERY week, rain or shine, hot or cold, snow or not. Don't get me wrong...someday I'll get around to titling a GSD.
> 
> Back in my OB and agility days, new people and their dogs were exciting, refreshing, and enjoyable. Now, after a few years of living the SchH lifestyle, and breaking my backside to accomplish nothing....new people and their freakin' optimism piss me off. I hardly even listen anymore, because as soon as it is raining...they won't be there. When it gets cold...they won't be there. When they can't get their dog to do this or that...they won't be there. When they realize you can't just train at club...they won't be there.
> 
> I honestly never thought I would become one of those jaded a-holes...but I am, and I don't care. I just train to train because I love it....and I want the new people to go somewhere else!



LoL  I am one of the new ScH people. We started training a few months ago and go back tonight as she is now cleared from her heat cycle.

I am not overly optimistic about titling. I will train the best I can, and enjoy the time spent with my dog. Luckily it doesn't get too cold down here, but it sure gets very hot. I will see what happens with training next summer. I did take Stella to the park each day in 95 degree heat, so I think I will probably train.

I am a new member along with one other guy in a very small group of people too. I have to put some "skin into the game" as I have been told by letting all the other members put their dog on the field first even if I got there ahead of everyone else. I get it, I understand I have to earn my way into the club. Luckily the VP is a wise ass and so am I , so we seemed to have it off pretty well so far.

I won't take your sentiment personally  , just sounds like your fed up.


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## lhczth

I am one of the old timers. Yes, working with new people is exhausting week after week, but out of those who waste our time often we find people who become very committed. Not dealing with new people is easy. It is also the way to guarantee our passion and probably our working dogs will vanish. I would love to train with a small group of maybe 5-6 serious people, but I also realize that if I want SchH/IPO to survive we need to bring in new people.


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## Lilie

Catu said:


> Then if people get discouraged that easy, then Schutzhund may not me the sport for them. We have to realize from the very first beginning that SchH is a 3 phases sport that requires a LOT of time and money. if their dog didn't receive a bunch of compliments is a reason to quit, better the first session than later when things start to go uphill.


No, what I mean is this; Let's say I buy a new GSD. I go through regular OB training, taking classes as my dog ages. I'm really enjoying the training and my dog is doing really well, so I want to take it a step further. I decide to join a Schutzhund group. 

I show up at your next Schutzhund class. You've been doing this for a while. Your dog is already doing well. You already know a lot of the folks in the class. You already know the commands. You already know what is expected of you and your dog. You already know what is considered it takes to be politically correct. I'm really feeling the pressure to do well. I don't know anybody in the class. 

I'm not asking to be babysat. Nor am I asking for compliments. I'm just asking for the other members to remember they were where I am as well. 

By week three I'm falling apart, my dog is falling apart. It is no longer fun. The other members are getting attitudes because I'm not cutting the mustard. I decide this isn't for me and never come back. 

Just for the record, this wouldn't be me personally. I don't fall apart easily. But I wouldn't enjoy working my dog with a group that are nothing but a bunch of snobs. 

Disclaimer: Catu, I'm using "you" as a collective you and certainly not you personally.


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## Liesje

The group I train with used to get new people every single week. We are now "closed" because we like to work within a certain time frame at a certain pace and have found a rhythm that works for everyone. Right now we are sticking to a core group of people that mesh well. That is really the most important thing, the synergy of the club. Of the core group, I think only two people had titled dogs in anything before joining (me being one of them) and only one of those was Schutzhund. Some of our members are training and titling their first GSDs even their first dogs ever.

Since I am on the computer *all* the time, I handle the communications. To date I have never been wrong about predicting how long a prospective person will last. Not trying to toot my own horn, this goes BOTH ways. I've gotten e-mails from people (some on this very forum) and just in their initial paragraph contact I know that they are serious and are a good fit, and these were people that have *not* done Schutzhund before. Ironically the ones that wash out are usually the ones that go out and buy the best pedigree sport dog they can find, spend thousands on new gear up front and then after six months we never see them again. We even had one person give their titled dog to another club member (again someone who has never done SchH before but shows commitment to training and to the club).

So, if I can pick on Shawn for a minute  Shawn a "newbie" like you would not be discouraged by us, at least going by my track record. Just by the types of questions you ask around here and elsewhere I can tell you are working hard with your dog and soaking up info like a sponge. 

Commitment is not the same as experience.

Also I agree with Catu that SchH is a 3 phase sport. We've had people come and train just one or two phases but all of those people quit (except for a few of us who sometimes bring out another dog for a track or to do some obedience). I personally don't care if people only want to do 1 or 2 phases but as a club we expect people to be there and participate the whole time. Now if someone has to come late or leave early for something specific that is fine but when people only show up for like an hour out of six they just don't ever feel part of the group and quit very quickly.

I think it's just my personality, I do what I say I will do and that's that. I just don't half-butt anything. If people say they want to do SchH then I assume that means they are prepared to be at training at least 80% of the time and show up willing to learn in all three phases and help out the rest of the club. It's not true that newbies can't help out. I've had some newbies ask questions their first time out that make me really think about how I'm training something and maybe go back and make some changes. I just don't have the type of personality that has the patience to nurture people into making the commitment. Now having a "trial period" is one thing but dragging on for months and months not showing any improvement just brings everyone down. It also bothers me when I don't see any improvement week to week that indicates nothing is being done between weekends when the club meets. I'd rather see someone show up and have gone backwards but then at least you can tell they were trying!

JMHO


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## Liesje

Lilie said:


> I show up at your next Schutzhund class. You've been doing this for a while. Your dog is already doing well. You already know a lot of the folks in the class. You already know the commands. You already know what is expected of you and your dog. You already know what is considered it takes to be politically correct. I'm really feeling the pressure to do well. I don't know anybody in the class.



I don't speak for all clubs but the ones I've been in and have visited do not operate this way. It is not like a class where one person runs the show and directs each person to take their turn. It's a club. Clubs can't survive by turning everyone away and they know this, like Lisa was saying. There is an adjustment period but in my experience one's level of experience with Schutzhund is not what has really factored in. A big part of it *is* a social event for the people. I visited Wayne's club twice this past year before I had ever titled a dog in SchH and they were awesome, heck if I lived any closer I'd be a regular. I've also visited another club where we trialed last month several times over this past year and they too were great. We did potlucks and they started bonfires for everyone. Now we are basically combining clubs. Even the person who showed up late with her foot in a cast and a puppy too young to do anything was not left out.

Reading this thread I wonder how many clubs people have actually been to? Are you guys really getting snubbed all over the place? I haven't been to that many SchH/protection sport (seven, I think) but I've been to a lot of other clubs for other dog sport/competition events and I've never had anyone really make me feel like I didn't belong, even on trial days when people supposedly have their game face on. Every title I've ever earned was on an "away" field because the clubs I train with regularly aren't officially sanctioned and can't host trials. I once went to a Schutzhund club far away, had never met anyone before, got there and there were a bunch of huge buff guys and they all had huge buff Rottweilers and Cane Corso's and I was there as the only person not from the club with my little female GSD but they were one of the nicest bunch of people I've ever met.


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## bocron

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new folks getting into the sport, but I like to see the person do some of the work and research, ie spend some time learning. Don't expect the club members to be your google search for schutzhund. Our club is mostly people with their first schutzhund dog, only 4 of us have ever titled a dog. Some of our members don't ever expect to title their dog, they just like the activity and spending the time with their dog. 
We have had 3 new people actually make it through the probation period and get voted in in the last few months. We tell them what is required of them to get voted in and those who are really into it have no problem following through. Basically all you have to do is show up regularly and make an honest effort to learn and we'll take you LOL. 
Like someone else stated, probie members always work last, but if that's the worst you have to deal with then so be it. One of our new guys who just got voted in was so psyched last week when he was officially a member and was in the "regular" line up. He even did the little "yes" under his breath which cracked us all up. 
My little welcome letter basically states that the club is just that, a club. We all work together and attendance is the biggest help to all. We need more people to help each dog and trainer achieve their goals, whatever those goals may be. 
If the club thing is too much of a commitment, then you are welcome to pay for private training outside of club time. There are a few who opt for that since they don't like the sitting around and waiting part of the club. To us, that is a big reason we're in the club, the camaraderie.


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## GSDElsa

I think this thing kind of happens in just about any activity that is a little "unnormal" (to make up my own word). OB, agility and what not are very common...around everywhere. Not as many resources put into people as a whole. My job is kind of like SchH. UGH. If I had a $1 for every person who wanted me to help them get a job in my field who I know only was interested because they thought it was like on TV, I'd be rich. I have absolutely no patience for people asking for internships, tours of my lab, etc. 

And I can understand how with SchH it's easy to become jaded. It is SO much work to get people titled. It's basically like having 3 titles rolled into one...and you have to give all 3 phases equal attention. I can see how it is a drain on people teaching and telping.

I'm not sure what the answer is. I don't think there is one. People either have it in them to committ or they don't. There isn't always an easy way to tell. Sometimes people really do think they want to do it. And think they are in it for the long haul. But then they realize how draining it is and life gets in the way. Although I do think that maybe it shoudl be a requirement to come out for awhile with NO dog and just watch and learn.

I recently joined a club that, in the past, has had fairly restricted membership. I started going out there the end of last summer-ish. Elsa was a wash (great at OB and tracking, but protection just wasn't happening). I kept going out to protection weekends even when I wasn't bringing her. I audited seminars. I always asked questions. Started private lessons with the club TD. Started training on the side with club members in my area. I was more or less a member even though I wasn't. I didn't want to fully commit because SAR was my #1 thing. I wanted to put a foundation on Medo, but not overextend myself. But one day it just kind of clicked for me........how well I meshed with the people, how much I learned at training. I sort of realized SchH was what I should be doing.............and when I finally told them it was a "FINALLY!" attitude from people :rofl: But had I NOT kept going out there even when I knew I didn't have a dog to really work myself.......I dont' think I would have been welcomed with open arms when I finally made the "official" switch.


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## cassadee7

Thanks Lies, that makes me smile  

I also get what Annette is saying and totally agree. If someone shows up wanting to have SchH preschool where you are teaching them all the super basics they could have learned on their own, that would be annoying. In our tracking group newbies are told to get a particular tracking book and the guide cards that go with it so they can learn the basics and be self starters with guidance from the club. People who won't do that, generally stop showing up. 

I am definitely one who does a ton of research and asks (way too many) questions trying to learn! And the more I read and watch people doing SchH the more I think it is something I will someday enjoy. Saber is really not a SchH dog and I don't have time for it (five kids) but someday 7-10 years down the road maybe! 

Also it is very nice when newbies have a spirit of helpfulness and pitch in to do things for the club, even if they don't know much. When people show up and want to contribute and not just take, I bet your SchH clubs are much happier to have them around.


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## Stella's Mom

bocron said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new folks getting into the sport, but I like to see the person do some of the work and research, ie spend some time learning. Don't expect the club members to be your google search for schutzhund. Our club is mostly people with their first schutzhund dog, only 4 of us have ever titled a dog. Some of our members don't ever expect to title their dog, they just like the activity and spending the time with their dog.
> We have had 3 new people actually make it through the probation period and get voted in in the last few months. We tell them what is required of them to get voted in and those who are really into it have no problem following through. Basically all you have to do is show up regularly and make an honest effort to learn and we'll take you LOL.
> Like someone else stated, probie members always work last, but if that's the worst you have to deal with then so be it. One of our new guys who just got voted in was so psyched last week when he was officially a member and was in the "regular" line up. He even did the little "yes" under his breath which cracked us all up.
> My little welcome letter basically states that the club is just that, a club. We all work together and attendance is the biggest help to all. We need more people to help each dog and trainer achieve their goals, whatever those goals may be.
> If the club thing is too much of a commitment, then you are welcome to pay for private training outside of club time. There are a few who opt for that since they don't like the sitting around and waiting part of the club. To us, that is a big reason we're in the club, the camaraderie.


Right, I don't mind working last. I learn a lot from watching the other members. I think I click with well with the group and that is always important. We all love our dogs and we enjoy being outside with them.

Several members have titled and then there are others like myself who are just starting out.


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## W.Oliver

cassadee7 said:


> ......I didn't realize people felt this way. So if someday down the road I get a GSD that may be suited to SchH, but I am not sure whether I will enjoy it or be able to commit, how do I find out? I mean, newbies HAVE to try it for a few weeks to figure that out, don't they?


You'll find like I did....when you work down a list of clubs in your area, there could be several that will not even entertain a "newbie" coming out...or if you have a Show Line, like I did at the time, they come right out and tell you that you don't have the right type of dog. The other thing I did wrong when I visited Lisa Clark's club was thinking I needed a dog to be at the club. I had a great first visit but didn't go back until I had a dog, and by the time I got Dayna, her club had filled-up. Which is a genuine reason some clubs may not invite a newbie out...simply no openings.

Key point there for "newbies" is to attend the club without a dog, and keep going..there is much to learn without a dog.

Now that I think about it, Lisa meeting me once was more likely than not plenty for her!!!!:laugh:


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## W.Oliver

Liesje said:


> We even had one person give their titled dog to another club member (again someone who has never done SchH before but shows commitment to training and to the club).


That would be a pretty cool newbie to have!!!!


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## W.Oliver

lhczth said:


> I would love to train with a small group of maybe 5-6 serious people, but I also realize that if I want SchH/IPO to survive we need to bring in new people.


That is really the truth of it. 

My peeve is simply that I have gotten invested in more than a few folks, and then wham, they disappear. One lady, to be honest, it was more about her dog than her....I really liked her dog a great deal, and would have liked to see how he developed...but she just stopped coming out...too much time and work.


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## Shaina

I landed in schutzhund by chance - ended up working for two top trainers/competitors, handled other dogs in personal protection and starting schutzhund, and researched the sport a lot. After about a year and a half of learning and handling, my trainer helped me find a dog, and she is a great one. I am now TERRIFIED of moving, since I know I'll have to find a club, and I am still new. 

It sucks that clubs don't like opening up to newer members, although it makes sense. I am just down right terrified that no club is going to have me, despite how committed I am! LOL


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## W.Oliver

You don't qualify as a newbie! 

I would be sick about moving as well, simply because I love the club/the people I train with.


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## Shaina

Ah, good then! I am still very new to large aspects of schutzhund (tracking is definitely one thing I have yet to mess with) and being a small, young female I am worried about being taken seriously. If nothing else, hopefully my pup will be - she's as real as it gets!

That is definitely the hardest part of leaving. I LOVE our group, we all fit very well and the training is remarkable.


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## W.Oliver

Lets not lose site of the fact that I haven't even titled a dog in anything!!!


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## lhczth

What you learn to do over time, Wayne, is put the time into those that show commitment. They are the people that, for the most part, only need pointers and spotters. They are motivated, go out and get training away from the club, train during the week and make progress week to week. Those that don't put in the effort don't get the effort out of me either except for the safety of my helpers and in fairness to the dogs.


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## W.Oliver

Wouldn't it be cool if you could just check under the hood and see if the oil level is good? 

Like I said earlier, what really bums me out are the folks I like, I get attached to them, I enjoy training with them, and then they peter-out and fade away.

Don't get my hopes up newbie!


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## Freestep

LaRen616 said:


> Sometimes things happen to people, maybe they lose their job and cant afford training anymore, maybe they became ill with cancer or something else, maybe personal issues came up and they cant continue training.
> 
> I am sure some of the new people decide that they just dont want to continue training anymore, but I am sure some just cant continue.


Yes. I believe I am in this category.

And after reading this thread, I don't think I'll join any training clubs or try out anything new, because I don't want to piss anyone off if I discover it isn't for me, or if I can't come out because the pain in my neck is searing to the point I can't get out of bed. Better I just stay home and do nothing with my dog than offend or annoy some people, eh?


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## Lilie

Freestep said:


> Yes. I believe I am in this category.
> 
> And after reading this thread, I don't think I'll join any training clubs or try out anything new, because I don't want to piss anyone off if I discover it isn't for me, or if I can't come out because the pain in my neck is searing to the point I can't get out of bed. Better I just stay home and do nothing with my dog than offend or annoy some people, eh?


And exactly why I've decided to go with another 'working' breed. Not that I would make any difference within the GSD world, but I would be just one more....

On the other hand Freestep, if I lived closer to you, you could call me and I'd come get your pup and take it to training. I love your pup!


----------



## cassadee7

Lilie said:


> And exactly why I've decided to go with another 'working' breed.


What??? ::gasp:: another breed??? Let's not get crazy now


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## W.Oliver

I think there is a difference between commitment/desire and motivation. If a person has the commitment and desire, but the body isn't able, any club worth a  will work with that person when they are able to come. The club I belong to has a person with a condition that at times limits her ability to participate....I consider her a valuable member of the club, and would be broken hearted if she left.

The spirit of this thread is about those who possess the physical ability, start the process, and simply lack the motivation to follow through.

Like a good GSD, the trainer must be of solid nerve. If this thread is enough to put you off....how would you characterize your level of desire?


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## Lilie

cassadee7 said:


> What??? ::gasp:: another breed??? Let's not get crazy now


Didn't you read the memo? I'm coming by to pick up Speedy (the wonderdog) and I'm going to use him! It's cheaper to purchase a toe sleeve instead of an arm sleeve. Easy to find helpers too!


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## Castlemaid

You see, I think it's silly to allow what someone who you don't know and won't be trainning with to put limits and conditions on what activities you want to try and what you want to do with your dog. 
There are people on the board that are purists, and would be quite upset about the amount of time and effort I exacted from the club and the amount of time and effort I put into my mixed breed over the years to train her, and not even have a full Schutzhund title to her name, but heck, I'm not doing this to gain their approval, but because I found something that I enjoy, learned a lot, made friends, mesh well with the club, and improved my dog a zillion times. I'm thinking that if I had read many of the thread and posts on here before I have even tried Schutzhund, I still would have gone on and tried it, as it seems to be just the kind of training and activities that she needed. 

Come to think of it, even if she had titled, that would have upset some other people also because they feel that putting a title on a random mixed breed somehow diminishes the accomplishement of the 'real' working dogs. 

Don't matter to me. Shouldn't matter to most of you. And when we talk of newbies, we often think 'attitude' over being new. Some people were a great fit right from the start, nothing to do with their level of experience. We do expect basic dog training experience. 



> No, what I mean is this; Let's say I buy a new GSD. I go through regular OB training, taking classes as my dog ages. I'm really enjoying the training and my dog is doing really well, so I want to take it a step further. I decide to join a Schutzhund group.
> 
> I show up at your next Schutzhund class. You've been doing this for a while. Your dog is already doing well. You already know a lot of the folks in the class. You already know the commands. You already know what is expected of you and your dog. You already know what is considered it takes to be politically correct. I'm really feeling the pressure to do well. I don't know anybody in the class.
> 
> I'm not asking to be babysat. Nor am I asking for compliments. I'm just asking for the other members to remember they were where I am as well.


That was me when I started, and pretty much how I started. I went from being the star of our regular community obedience classes, to being completely intimidated by the level of training the dogs at our Schutzhund club had. No one expected me to walk on and do what other people's dogs were doing. But I did spend a lot of time watching and asking questions and asking for pointers. 

When I joined the club, there was no way EVER that Keeta would do 50 paces of focused heeling with or without distractions, yet everyone encouraged me to try for our BH at our trial in two months. I took up the challenge and decided to try (actually, I laughed 'till I cried at first at the thought of Keeta being ready for a BH in two months). No one trained Keeta for me, I did all that, mostly learning from watching and listening. What the club will do for you is help you in learning the routine and walked the pattern with me, and acted as judge and as crowd for heeling through the group. 

It takes years to train a dog up to BH and then to SchH levels. If a person is falling apart because they are not at the same level as the others, they are putting unreasonable expectations and pressure on themselves, it's not coming from the club.


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## Liesje

W.Oliver said:


> Like I said earlier, what really bums me out are the folks I like, I get attached to them, I enjoy training with them, and then they peter-out and fade away.


Especially when they turn around and make nasty comments. That's what really gets to me, putting years into someone, being patient, helping as much as you can and should and then they just disappear only to make snide comments as if they are the victim. Yeah that happened recently. It does effect the group and how often the group is willing to let that happen. But my earlier comments still stand. Generally we can tell within the first session or two whether someone is a) serious about giving it a try and b) a good fit with the group.


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## onyx'girl

I love a group that is supportive of the other members and not cliquey....when you trial it is only you and your dog, yet the support of your training group is very important. I know most are very competitive individually but they should also support their group as one.

Maybe the newbies fade away because they don't feel part of that core group?


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## gsd_newbie

I don't have a club, I don't have any old members, I don't have any new members, I don't have real experience, I don't have any helper... I just have some SchH books and my dogs... I train & jog with them all days, everyday, rain or dry... just for the love of the sport.


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## W.Oliver

onyx'girl said:


> Maybe the newbies fade away because they don't feel part of that core group?


I could see that happening at some clubs I have visited (West Coast and Down South)..more serious/competitive organizations, but you know our club, do you think that would be the case, honestly?

One of the guys that faded away had posted on the club site asking if someone could watch his dog while he was on vacation...and at that moment, nobody was really in a position to do it...just bad timing, and I always wondered if that put him off a bit???

Now I feel guilty!!! Thanks Jane!


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## W.Oliver

gsd_newbie said:


> I don't have a club, I don't have any old members, I don't have any new members, I don't have real experience, I don't have any helper... I just have some SchH books and my dogs... I train & jog with them all days, everyday, rain or dry... just for the love of the sport.


Have you searched around for a club and contacted any? Of course, if you've read through this thread...don't do it unless you're serious about working your dog.

Nice looking boy by the way, I am always a sucker for the Red&Blacks.


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## onyx'girl

Wayne, I wasn't posting my opinion based on Liberty. Your group is the most welcoming I've been to. 

Just thru reading other posters experiences and knowing where I've been.... supporting the whole "team" IMO is a biggie. If you don't feel part of the group, it is that much more challenging to keep on keeping on with a good attitude. 
Especially when it comes to the 'little' things like retrieves, blind searches and other things you have to do on your own without the support of your group or TD. There are only so many hours in the group training field time, so you have to make the best of what you have when you go to train....its great when the other members support and help. Other eyes giving critique without criticism is very important for progression.


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## W.Oliver

Whooo :blush:, I was sweatin' that one.


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## Freestep

W.Oliver said:


> If this thread is enough to put you off....how would you characterize your level of desire?


Why should I characterize it at all, when I have others to do it for me? You've already judged me, so I won't bother justifying my level of desire vs. my level of ability to acheive it.

The very fact that I *can't* train with the commitment that others can has forced me to reconsider my priorities in life at a certain point. Just knowing that there are folks out there who would disparage me for not putting in the time that *they* can, well... that is even more discouraging. Lucky you if you have the time, resources, and physical capability to train as much as you want. Not all of us are at such a fortunate spot in life.

I would think folks would want to encourage new people into the sport, but I guarantee you've just put off at least half the newbies who read this thread, and they may never even try it for fear of being judged and talked about behind their backs.

Yes, I tried joining a SchH club. I had to drive 90 miles each way, twice a week. The members were so standoffish and unwelcoming, and they bickered and backstabbed each other so much, that it left me to wonder "what am I doing here?" The club went on hiatus while they were looking for a new training site, and I was not invited back, so I decided to go elsewhere. Kinda left a bad taste in my mouth for SchH.


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## Bigdogsolo

Very Interesting thread.
As a new member with a new dog, I'm here to gather information, listen to the experiences of others who have maybe layed a path before me, listen to opinions and then decide for myself. 
And while I might not agree with your position Oliver, I respect that you have the guts to express an opinion that one may come across and in your experiences would allow for me to be aware if I were to join a formal group that these issues could be a possibility. And while I'm not a boyscout.....I like being "prepared". Thanks for your honesty and input. (to all of you!)


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## onyx'girl

Freestep, your experience is not the norm......don't judge just because of that group. 
I don't think Wayne was personally addressing your circumstance.

I am a newbie(my poor, poor dog) and am committed to training, no matter where I train.
I think the ones who train in SchH have to have a very thick skin. I track, my dog blows an article, my TD criticizes me on my handling....I drive home crying? 

I have more bad group training sessions than good, but that is how I learn and usually we still progress. Always a work in progress.
Really I do enjoy it, and am going to go stir crazy this month because our group is not training together. But I don't know what will happen with the plans I have, if this group disbands. I don't think I'd throw in the towel with what we've already invested in.


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## Konotashi

I'm not in SchH, obviously, but I have never missed flyball practice. Even the ones that I wasn't required to go to (like the demo and a tournament), I went to because Ozzy needs to get accustomed to the chaos. At the demo, I got fried and looked like a lobster (still have a farmer's tan from that). 
There was a practice two days before the demo to make sure the tourney dogs were ready - 5 people showed up. I went, and I had my wisdom teeth removed earlier that day! My face was still numb. 
To train Ozzy by myself, I'll go out when it's freezing and muddy in the park. As long as he doesn't mind, neither do I. 

There's one person who has a dog named Sophie. She didn't show up for 4 out of the 6 beginner classes, but was still invited to be on the team. She sent an e-mail yesterday that she can't devote the time to it. I'm glad she told us, but it still irritates me. 

I might be a newbie myself, but it's irritating, even to me, when people don't give it their all.


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## Freestep

Konotashi said:


> I might be a newbie myself, but it's irritating, even to me, when people don't give it their all.


And it's that all-or-nothing attitude that may convince people that it's better to do nothing, if they can't make the same commitment that you *choose* to make.

Hearing all this is very discouraging for me personally--and it's the reason I thought I'd never get another GSD, because I felt I couldn't fully commit to formal training. If it has to be all or nothing, then I have to choose "nothing", because I'm simply not able to give all.

Great, another thing for me to feel guilty about.


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## holland

I am not going to feel guilty about whether or not I do schutzhund any longer. Life is just too short really I am going to enjoy my dog and if part of that is schutzhund great if not we will find other things to do and enjoy our time together. My new years resolution.


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## holland

I am curious about a few things though why do you have to have a thick skin to do schutzhund is that in the rule book somehere or is that one of the rules they are forever changing and who made that rule anyway...


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## W.Oliver

Freestep said:


> Why should I characterize it at all, when I have others to do it for me? You've already judged me, so I won't bother justifying my level of desire vs. my level of ability to acheive it.


It was rhetorical....intended for self examination, persuasive effect, and motivation.


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## W.Oliver

Bigdogsolo said:


> Very Interesting thread.
> As a new member with a new dog, I'm here to gather information, listen to the experiences of others who have maybe layed a path before me, listen to opinions and then decide for myself.
> And while I might not agree with your position Oliver, I respect that you have the guts to express an opinion that one may come across and in your experiences would allow for me to be aware if I were to join a formal group that these issues could be a possibility. And while I'm not a boyscout.....I like being "prepared". Thanks for your honesty and input. (to all of you!)


Gotta respect that...solid nerve.


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## W.Oliver

W.Oliver said:


> At our club, we had a new guy coming, and I liked him. After he'd been coming for awhile, I decided to give him one of our club ball caps. Two weeks later he was gone...haven't seen or heard from him in months!
> 
> I like the comers and stayers...it is the comers and goers that make me crazy!





W.Oliver said:


> Lets not lose site of the fact that I haven't even titled a dog in anything!!!





W.Oliver said:


> Wouldn't it be cool if you could just check under the hood and see if the oil level is good?
> 
> Like I said earlier, what really bums me out are the folks I like, I get attached to them, I enjoy training with them, and then they peter-out and fade away.
> 
> Don't get my hopes up newbie!


Freestep,

Please take a moment to read the above quotes...a few times...see if you can capture the spirit of what the thread is about.

This is not a personal attack on you.


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## Liesje

holland said:


> I am curious about a few things though why do you have to have a thick skin to do schutzhund is that in the rule book somehere or is that one of the rules they are forever changing and who made that rule anyway...


I feel it is because of what we are asking of our dogs. Schutzhund is not the only dog sport I do, but unlike the others, which are mostly designed for *all* breeds and have training setup in ways that want every dog to succeed, Schutzhund is the one where it is really a breed test designed to expose the strengths and weaknesses of the dog. It is not conducive to softer dogs, it's just not fair for the dog and I doubt anyone can convince me otherwise. Two of my dogs can do Schutzhund and enjoy it without me having to make training into such little baby steps and happy happy joy joy games, and two of my dogs just don't cut it as far as *Schutzhund* but are perfectly well suited to be great pets and enjoy other activities. Schutzhund puts a dog through the wringer mentally and sometimes physically. I guess my personal opinion is that it's just not fair to my DOGS if I'm only half in the game. I can't ask the level of effort and commitment from them and not match that myself. I really couldn't care less what other people choose to do with their time and their money but I personally do not feel comfortable "dabbling" in something like Schutzhund. 

I feel the same way about SAR. God I would LOVE to do SAR someday (dog or not) but I know that realistically I cannot make the time or financial commitment nor do I currently have a job or a lifestyle that would allow me to pursue the training and more importantly be available for the actual work.


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## Shaina

I've left training many times upset, irritated, and frustrated that I wasn't going to get my act together to get things right. That is where thick skin matters - my trainer doesn't always tell me things in the nicest way, and I don't always feel great having to use pressure to help my dog, but sometimes it is necessary. That is where many people give up, in my opinion.


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## cassadee7

Lilie said:


> Didn't you read the memo? I'm coming by to pick up Speedy (the wonderdog) and I'm going to use him! It's cheaper to purchase a toe sleeve instead of an arm sleeve. Easy to find helpers too!


LOL! Now that would be a sight worth seeing!


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## W.Oliver

I view Schutzhund as a lifestyle.


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## AgileGSD

I tried SchH and didn't stick with it. I enjoyed it, my dog had a good aptitude for the work (actually had multiple dogs who did), I have no issue training my dog at home and the club I went to was nice and welcoming to all newbies. Why didn't I stick with it? Because after awhile it occurred to me that SchH is all consuming, at least if you have to train with a club (and most people do). I couldn't devote an entire day (or two) to being at the SchH club and continue to do the other stuff I do with my dogs. It's not laziness, so much as there's only so much time and money and weekends to pursue dog stuff.


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## onyx'girl

Shaina said:


> I've left training many times upset, irritated, and frustrated that I wasn't going to get my act together to get things right. That is where thick skin matters - my trainer doesn't always tell me things in the nicest way, and I don't always feel great having to use pressure to help my dog, but sometimes it is necessary. That is where many people give up, in my opinion.


:thumbup: 
When you think back though on the drive home ~processing your session that sucked, your dog is what keeps you going....your dog gives 110% + and the dog usually is ready to rock it the next session...they don't give up! Pressure powers them thru and helps them to get to the next level in their training.


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## bocron

W.Oliver said:


> I view Schutzhund as a lifestyle.


My husband and I met at the Schutzhund club. We got married by a JP so we could schedule it around a trial and breed survey our club was holding. We trialed/kkl 4 dogs that weekend. Our daughter was born the following year. We were holding a seminar at our field, where I sat around 9mos pregnant. We finished up the seminar that Sunday afternoon, took the guy out to dinner, dropped him at the airport and drove straight to the hospital. Looking back now it was pretty funny. None of our club people had any idea that I was in labor all afternoon and I even kind of worked my dog (someone else held the longline for me). 
So here it is 16 years later, and this is still what we do in our spare time. Our 15yo daughter is a devotee as well. This weekend, one of the helpers in our club is getting married, at the club. All of the Schutzhund club is coming over Saturday and decorating the place and the wedding will be Sunday. Of course everyone is bringing a change of clothes since it was decided the festivities would be finished in plenty of time to do bitework after LOL.
So for us, it is a lifestyle. But if others join the club and don't get quite as into as we have, that's fine, too .

Annette


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## GSDElsa

Liesje said:


> I feel it is because of what we are asking of our dogs. Schutzhund is not the only dog sport I do, but unlike the others, which are mostly designed for *all* breeds and have training setup in ways that want every dog to succeed, *Schutzhund is the one where it is really a breed test designed to expose the strengths and weaknesses of the dog. It is not conducive to softer dogs, it's just not fair for the dog and I doubt anyone can convince me otherwise.* Two of my dogs can do Schutzhund and enjoy it without me having to make training into such little baby steps and happy happy joy joy games, and two of my dogs just don't cut it as far as *Schutzhund* but are perfectly well suited to be great pets and enjoy other activities. *Schutzhund puts a dog through the wringer mentally and sometimes physically. *I guess my personal opinion is that it's just not fair to my DOGS if I'm only half in the game. I can't ask the level of effort and commitment from them and not match that myself. I really couldn't care less what other people choose to do with their time and their money but I personally do not feel comfortable "dabbling" in something like Schutzhund.
> 
> I feel the same way about SAR. God I would LOVE to do SAR someday (dog or not) but I know that realistically I cannot make the time or financial commitment nor do I currently have a job or a lifestyle that would allow me to pursue the training and more importantly be available for the actual work.


Bolded part my emphasis. Very good post, Lies. I think that's the key here. People take protection sports more seriously because it IS serious. Done wrong or done on a dog who shouldn't be doing it CAN and most likely WILL screw a dog up.

_________________________________________________

I'm kind of surprised that people are taking this thread so hard. I just don't see what the big deal is to say it's frustrating to have people show up either A. Whenever they feel like it and leave early with no explanation B. Just stop showing up with no explanation or C. Show up and monopolize peoples' time when it's obvious you haven't been doing squat for the last month.


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## Liesje

GSDElsa said:


> Bolded part my emphasis. Very good post, Lies. I think that's the key here. People take protection sports more seriously because it IS serious. Done wrong or done on a dog who shouldn't be doing it CAN and most likely WILL screw a dog up.
> 
> _________________________________________________
> 
> I'm kind of surprised that people are taking this thread so hard. I just don't see what the big deal is to say it's frustrating to have people show up either A. Whenever they feel like it and leave early with no explanation B. Just stop showing up with no explanation or C. Show up and monopolize peoples' time when it's obvious you haven't been doing squat for the last month.


Exactly Justine. Especially the second part. How many people who are so worried about being snubbed or having undue pressure put on them have actually been around to different Schutzhund clubs and have been treated this way? I know there are some like this and some that are *really* competitive but if anything, I think most are *too* relaxed for my taste.


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## cliffson1

I do a lot of the helper work for club....its is exhausting, thankless at times, and for free. I only get the satisfaction of training dogs and seeing someone's dog and skills improve. I get ticked when I'm busting my butt sweating and freezing, almost getting bit, and whatever, and you have people who want to be members and have little or no commitment, want to stand around and talk about everything; but what we are doing. Are not paying attention,yet they should be watching so that they and their dog can improve. The hardest dogs to work are the ones in which the handlers/owners aren't zeroed in to what is happening. Sch is a journey and comittment, similar to martial arts, if you really want to learn and do this, I'm your biggest supporter, but if you are just going through the motions.....find someone else's time to waste. Its not fair to the club, to the helpers, and to the dog. JMO


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## FG167

bocron said:


> My husband and I met at the Schutzhund club. We got married by a JP so we could schedule it around a trial and breed survey our club was holding. We trialed/kkl 4 dogs that weekend. Our daughter was born the following year. We were holding a seminar at our field, where I sat around 9mos pregnant. We finished up the seminar that Sunday afternoon, took the guy out to dinner, dropped him at the airport and drove straight to the hospital. Looking back now it was pretty funny. None of our club people had any idea that I was in labor all afternoon and I even kind of worked my dog (someone else held the longline for me).
> So here it is 16 years later, and this is still what we do in our spare time. Our 15yo daughter is a devotee as well. This weekend, one of the helpers in our club is getting married, at the club. All of the Schutzhund club is coming over Saturday and decorating the place and the wedding will be Sunday. Of course everyone is bringing a change of clothes since it was decided the festivities would be finished in plenty of time to do bitework after LOL.
> So for us, it is a lifestyle. But if others join the club and don't get quite as into as we have, that's fine, too .
> 
> Annette


This post made me smile - I love it 

I used to be in SAR, I devoted 3-5 days a week to several hours worth of training, at least 1-2 were full-day trainings of 8-10 hours. That wasn't the hard part. The hard part was I couldn't afford to do that without working full time and working full time didn't allow me to be available on call-outs. This was a huge bummer and I loved the team I was on and the training we did. 

I began Schutzhund and look at it the same way, a lifestyle and something I do every single day, literally. Usually with two dogs, not just one (being someone's spotter is a full-time training position, even if you aren't the one going to trial the dog personally). I am a newbie. I started with a crap dog and worked up. I bought a nice pup, started training more seriously and I love it. Even considering that I'm a newbie, I get annoyed with newer newbies that show up and you can tell that in-between sessions, they didn't work on anything. Especially if they haven't mastered the very basics yet (such as teaching pup/dog to sit, lure, listen, care etc). I may be new, have no titles and be training my first dog but I'm busting my butt to do so and that should count for something.


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## martemchik

I only do obedience training and trialing for now because I did the research and I just can't make Schutzhund my lifestyle at this point in my life. But comparing it to obedience it is upsetting for me to see newer people come to our club and not work their dog at home. Its really easy to tell, especially because I was one of those people. What really did it for me was starting to trial and the competition that went along with it. It wasn't ok for him to just sit anymore, now he had to sit straight and right away. I guess Schutzhund is different in the way that you can't just start trialing without having a fully trained dog, which takes a while. I think many of those new people would really get into it if they could "fail" at a trial. I personally like qualifying, but I also prefer to win the class. I want my dog to be the best one there, and I know it takes training so I work on it.


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## lhczth

FG167 said:


> Even considering that I'm a newbie, I get annoyed with newer newbies that show up and you can tell that in-between sessions, they didn't work on anything. Especially if they haven't mastered the very basics yet (such as teaching pup/dog to sit, lure, listen, care etc).


Wait until you watch these same people do this for 6 years. It does become very frustrating, but after awhile you stop helping them because you know they are not even trying to help themselves. All clubs have these people even the highly competitive clubs I have trained with. They are the people that just want a fun way to spend their Sundays. Sometimes they fade away and sometimes they are just asked to leave.

When people want to do this they put in the time to train. They may not have the best dog or even a dog that can title. They may have a work schedule that makes being there every weekend difficult. They probably can't turn SchH into a lifestyle. What they do have is commitment to training their dogs and working towards their titles. These people need to be given a chance even if that means we must sort through 10 others first.


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## Freestep

W.Oliver said:


> Freestep,
> 
> Please take a moment to read the above quotes...a few times...see if you can capture the spirit of what the thread is about.
> 
> This is not a personal attack on you.


I've read all the posts in this thread. Thank you.

I know it's not a personal attack on me specifically, but it's been made abundantly clear that unless I am willing to give 100% commitment, I shouldn't even try, lest I offend or annoy you folks who are fortunate enough to have the time, energy, resources, and ability to give their all. 

I already feel sad and guilty and ashamed, because due to my life circumstances, I can't give 100% no matter how much I want to. If everyone else shares the opinion that it's all or nothing, and it seems the majority here do, it simply means I am pretty much going to have to shut myself out of any sport or dog training activities and not even try to begin. I guess I'm not terribly surprised, but it's a depressing reality check to see it stated clearly in black and white. But I guess it's better to know the truth.

I have enough guilt already for not giving more to my pup, but I told my breeder that I couldn't make any guarantees for formal training/titling due to my current situation. She was understanding of that and still wanted me to have the pup--her main concern was for a good home, titles or no. I didn't even have a GSD pup on my radar but she encouraged me to take Vinca as a "foster"... and well... you all know how that goes!

Maybe I made a mistake, and I should give my pup to someone who CAN give their all for her. This is how I feel sometimes; I want what is best for her, no matter how much I would cry over it.


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## Liesje

Freestep no one is trying to make you feel bad. Do you not agree that Schutzhund requires a bit more commitment and finesse than most other dog sports considering the amount of pressure that is placed on the dog, and the fact that protection work is involved? I think most clubs have people that have time or money conflicts and/or health constraints and those sorts of things are not really what Wayne is talking about (I think). It's more about "being there" mentally, I guess. Being focused when you *can* be there and being aware of your dog and having something to show for the work at home whether that is once a week or twice a day.

In our club there is not one person that hasn't had their training and attendance effected by other commitments, health problems/injuries, or other personal issues but no one has been driven away. One person left recently despite the club making many allowances over the past two years and we aren't going to go knocking on doors begging people to come back if they just don't want to be there. Like I said earlier most people that come a few times and don't show up again are the ones that are 100% physically capable, go out and buy ALL the latest gear, but that doesn't make up for a lack of genuine interest and skill for training dogs.


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## southernfiction

*So different*


 What I've found is that Schutzhund people, obedience people, rally people, conformation people, et al, are soooo different from each other in personality or in what their goal is. Rarely, a person will fit in several places.
 Newcomers are just looking for where they and their dogs fit. Some of us find out we don't fit anywhere. The looking and finding out is called living.


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## Freestep

Liesje said:


> Do you not agree that Schutzhund requires a bit more commitment and finesse than most other dog sports considering the amount of pressure that is placed on the dog, and the fact that protection work is involved?


Yes, yes I do. That is why I am *not* going to pursue SchH, or any kind of bitework. I would like to, but since I am not in a position to give 110%, I will not even attempt it.


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## W.Oliver

For the best, save yourself the frustration.


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## bocron

Freestep said:


> Yes, yes I do. That is why I am *not* going to pursue SchH, or any kind of bitework. I would like to, but since I am not in a position to give 110%, I will not even attempt it.


I guess one point people are trying to get across is that bitework is one discipline that shouldn't be dabbled in. There are points along the way that the dog is between understanding the total scenario and doesn't need to be left hanging so to speak. With agility or rally, for example, you can learn a piece of the total and never continue and it wouldn't really matter. Say you learn the weave poles but never continue on to the teeter, no problem. In bitework, certain exercises are only a small piece of a bigger puzzle. 
We do get people who realize very quickly that they don't want to spend the time it will take. But, they do like the obedience and tracking. We offer a lesser cost membership that allows members to participate only in those aspects. 
We have one potential new member whose dog is a bit of a handful. He is already kind of a hair trigger dog, so this is one who the TD has given a warning to about "playing" with bitework. There are plenty of dogs who can try bitework a handful of times and just move on, no harm no foul. This is why we are very careful and move very slowly with newbies until we see they are going to stick it out.


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## Liesje

Good post Annette, totally agree. I have a dog (one that doesn't do SchH) that is terrified of the chute in agility so...we just don't ever do the chute. He doesn't compete but just takes the basic level classes and does short sequences. It really doesn't matter one way or the other. Bitework on the other hand... at least the way we do it it is often carefully orchestrated. That is why I don't just bring my dogs to any "helper" and try to get the worked as much as possible. There's a reason why we might do bitework twice one week and then only once every two weeks or do two or three rounds during one training day and not at all the next.


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## Freestep

bocron said:


> I guess one point people are trying to get across is that bitework is one discipline that shouldn't be dabbled in. There are points along the way that the dog is between understanding the total scenario and doesn't need to be left hanging so to speak.


I realize that, and it's a good thing for people to understand. Sadly, when I was 110% committed, I didn't have the right dog, and now that I have the right dog, I can no longer commit. I had already decided that I wouldn't do bitework before I even got another dog; liability also played a part in that decision. I would like to train in obedience and tracking, but I can do that mostly on my own. I had hoped to maybe do AKC obedience, but now I just don't know... really all I want is a well-behaved companion, and since I'm not really interested in breeding, I don't need to prove a thing to anyone.


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## holland




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## KZoppa

Yeah.... this thread is actually pretty discouraging. I dont have the right dog(s) to participate currently in any sport. But i also dont have the time commitment that would allow me to be welcome apparently. I have two young kids and am a military wife so moving around every 3-5 years and potential deployments leaves me to have to focus on other things. And financially its a challenge as well with two growing like weeds kids. 

I get there is a commitment that is necessary to succeed. Thats the case with all things but life happens and not everyone has the luxury to commit fully to something. Honestly, if newbies arent welcome openly, that does make people less inclined to continue regardless of whether they have the desire, time and whatnot. I know I dont usually stick around where i'm not wanted. 

Maybe some day I'll be able to do something with my dogs that we'd like doing but for now, I guess i'll have to stick with basics


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## Liesje

Krystal have you visited any clubs? There's a huge range in cost, even among clubs in the same state or region.


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## Xeph

> What I've found is that Schutzhund people, obedience people, rally people, conformation people, et al, are soooo different from each other in personality or in what their goal is.


Very true, Lauren. It's frustrating. My two big loves are conformation and agility. I so badly want/wanted to be a schutzhund person, but I do not take strong criticism well. If somebody yells at me and criticizes at the same time, even though they're trying to help, I DO take it as a personal affront, and my response is to cry and not return....because I'm embarrassed. Not because I'm angry. I'm embarrassed that I got upset, that I got "yelled at", and embarrassed that somebody saw me cry...so I don't show my face again.

Even though they will forget about it in a day or a week, I do not. I'm just really emotionally sensitive. And while I've worked on improving that, there's only so much I can do. It's like trying to take a weak nerved dog and make him a strong nerved one....it's not possible.

My husband would probably have a blast doing schutzhund (he's a military man...he doesn't mind getting yelled at), and he really wants to be a K9 officer or a SAR handler one day....but right now he's not got the time, and we've not got the money.


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## Liesje

Jackie you should train with us! I kid you not right now we have an all-women Schutzhund club besides the TD/training helper. I've never seen so many tears of anger, frustration, joy, terror, relief as the week leading up to our trial and during the trial itself.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Freestep said:


> If everyone else shares the opinion that it's all or nothing, and it seems the majority here do, it simply means *I am pretty much going to have to shut myself out of any sport or dog training activities *and not even try to begin.


There are things other than Schutzhund that you can do with your dog, and you can also do classes vs committing to working with a club. You pay for your 6 weeks, and if you and your dog are enjoying it, you can sign up for another 6 week class. If it turns out to not be for you, you move on and try something else. If your health interferes and you have to drop out partway through a class you've signed up for, it's no skin off the instructor's nose, they've been paid whether you can make it to every class or not.


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## cliffson1

Hey Hey....I'm not hearing people say some of the things being anguished about.....commitment is an attitude and demonstration of WANTING to do what the club is about. Its not defined by having to attend every session, or how far you drive or what outside responsibilites are. People are saying that if you have the dog, and you want to learn Sch type obedience, tracking, OR Sch bitework....then that's what the club is there for. Nothing more....plenty of people in our club who have limited time and less than great dogs that have accomplished a lot because they worked for it when they are in the club. It takes work....what's wrong with that???? If you sign up for Gymnastics or ballet, then the expectation is the person will commit and work...that's all. Now if you don't want to work at the purpose of the club you shouldn't attempt it. That's a personal decision. But a sch club is not for fun and giggles, people are training towards a goal....some are intense others just take their time at the pace of their dog...but we can't lose sight of the club because someone doesn't fit or their dog doesn't fit or they may want it to be social hour with their dog. All dogs and all people are not cut out for Sch, and that's okay,....because their are a hundred other satisfying things people can do with their dogs. Do them instead!! JMO
But if you want to do this and have the dog that enjoys it, I don't see the problem (except for the politics which is everywhere) in pursuing it if it is available to you.


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## wolfstraum

Xeph - there are clubs that will treat you kindly - you are in New Castle??? PA now??? About 70 miles north of me! Go to NEOWDA (Pat Mataresse's) over by Youngstown...straight out 422 to 76 I think...then only a few miles off the highway! An easy drive for your location!

I heard they recently had a litter and getting one of their pups (and probably a very reasonable cost, less than half what you would pay before) would help you fit in there as well....Pat is pretty soft spoken, and a good helper...

Lee


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## Jason L

Lies is NOT kidding or exaggerating


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## Xeph

> Jackie you should train with us!


I only have 7 year old Mousedog (Can you believe he's 7, Lies? 8 in April!) and Ms American Mogwai, right now, lol.

Next summer I should have a working line baby, but unsure if I'll be doing anything with him beyond some Rally/Agility (the Tourette's is really giving me issues....I'd actually like to challenge my diagnosis, or try and manage it better).


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## KZoppa

Liesje said:


> Krystal have you visited any clubs? There's a huge range in cost, even among clubs in the same state or region.


 
I used to go with my uncle all the time when I was little and the one club i was able to visit one day when we were still down in NC, the members werent very friendly so it was a negative experience to even watch them practice. 

I do enjoy watching trials, though I've only been able to watch past videos on youtube since leaving Colorado and I know I could learn a great deal but i do have this shyness issue. I still dont have the dog(s) for even the obedience portion of it. I would enjoy helping out though even without taking one of the dogs. 

I wouldnt even know where to look here in MD for a club or clubs for that matter. Its still very discouraging after reading this thread though to try. Plus drive time is a factor as well as having a babysitter. I really would like to get involved if i had the right dog and the time and the money but none of those cards are in my favor right now and wont be for the foreseable future.


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## ayoitzrimz

Yea I think people are confusing commitment with sacrifice (for lack of a better word) - I dont think the "veterans" want to see that your dog has mastered everything they taught you last week, that you have every single tool used in Schutzhund, and that you spend all day every day training your dog. But it definitely shows when someone is committed given their circumstances.

Ex: I have the longest commute in our club, work full time, go to grad school full time, and live on my own. I dont have the time or money to attend every single session, I only come once a week (they train twice a week - think of it as they meet 2x as much as I do), and I dont have the time or money to get a "better" dog (my dog is great for tracking / ob and is very stable (i.e. socialized) and safe as far as protection goes, but genetically he has a crappy bite and too focused on prey i.e. not balanced)

But, when I don't show up I always give the TD a heads up, and when I do show up I pay attention, help others, help setup / remove blinds, ask questions, pay attention, take criticism in stride (I try to anyway - I get a little hard on myself).

The results are there - he's improving every week and I'm learning so much from these guys - and its obvious that they devote the extra time for me because they know I'm serious eventhough my circumstances limit me.

So I think what people are saying is that you have to show commitment given your current situation and take training seriously given your time and money.

Makes sense? Hope I explained myself properly


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## Xeph

Oop, a bunch of posts all at the same time!

One thing I REALLY miss, really REALLY miss, is helping at clubs. I miss volunteering, and learning. I DO learn....I struggle with it sometimes due to delivery, but I do enjoy learning.

I also do not like being a burden on others. One of the reasons I stick with my all breed clubs and "simple" venues, is because of my Tourette's. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but I worry about somebody getting hurt while I'm trying to work my dog in protection because I twitched and I let go of the line with my hands. Nor do I like people worrying about me while I'm trying to do a track because I do fall.

Maybe one of these days I'll be able to go to a club. I do enjoy watching and learning, some of the personalities of the people training are just really strong and I have trouble dealing with them is all.


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## Liesje

KZoppa said:


> I wouldnt even know where to look here in MD for a club or clubs for that matter. Its still very discouraging after reading this thread though to try. Plus drive time is a factor as well as having a babysitter. I really would like to get involved if i had the right dog and the time and the money but none of those cards are in my favor right now and wont be for the foreseable future.



Is this just in general or for Schutzhund specifically? I'm just curious because often I see SchH/SchH clubs getting a bad rap from people who don't actually have the experience of getting snubbed by a club but just assume that's how it goes. Not saying this is the case with you, I'm just curious. A few years ago I would have said "no WAY!" could I afford this, financially or time-wise but it's working out so far... The one nice thing about SchH is that you aren't constantly paying entry fees of up the wazoo. I don't do rally or some other things anymore because I can't pay like $500 in entry fees just for a half-decent title.


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## Stella's Mom

onyx'girl said:


> :thumbup:
> When you think back though on the drive home ~processing your session that sucked, your dog is what keeps you going....your dog gives 110% + and the dog usually is ready to rock it the next session...they don't give up! Pressure powers them thru and helps them to get to the next level in their training.


Yeah, I agree. I am very new to this and I figure the dog will learn faster than me . I already know I will be corrected a lot, but that is ok. I need to learn and I am not very thin skinned so it should work out.


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## W.Oliver

Folks,

I did not start this thread to talk about who should or shouldn't pursue SchH. I didn't start this thread to talk about what kind of dog should or shouldn't be worked in SchH. I started this thread to grouse about the folks who come-out, train for a period of time, then just peter-out and fade away because its too much work, their dog isn't perfect, the weather isn't nice, on and on when they're simply not committed.

I think many of you are fortunate that for whatever reason Vandal has not jumped in here....she'd test your nerve.

So for you whiners, shut-up, get some gear, take your dog to a club and DON'T QUIT!

Love,

Wayne


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## KZoppa

Liesje said:


> Is this just in general or for Schutzhund specifically? I'm just curious because often I see SchH/SchH clubs getting a bad rap from people who don't actually have the experience of getting snubbed by a club but just assume that's how it goes. Not saying this is the case with you, I'm just curious. A few years ago I would have said "no WAY!" could I afford this, financially or time-wise but it's working out so far... The one nice thing about SchH is that you aren't constantly paying entry fees of up the wazoo. I don't do rally or some other things anymore because I can't pay like $500 in entry fees just for a half-decent title.


 
yeah this was for an actual SchH club. Honestly it wasnt until recently (joining this forum) that I even learned there were clubs that taught other things besides SchH. It also wasnt until I got my first dog that I even knew pet stores offered obedience classes because i'd always only had cats until Riley came along. Wasnt until I started taking my class to become a certified obedience trainer that I've even been in a formal class. I enjoy learning, especially when it comes to working with animals so when I have the free time and ability to get where i need to be, i'm all for helping out with training stuff because I learn things i'm interested in. I just dont have the full luxury to know i can fully commit even one day a week until probably the day before or that day. I hope that makes sense. It does in my head but reading it... well i'm not sure i'm conveying whats in my head properly. We're in a tight spot now and will be for a while still.


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## Xeph

Hey, Lee, NEOWDA is only 53 minutes away from me, lol


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## Caja's Mom

It is a nice club, I have done quite a few titles there. They are welcoming to visitors. Especially since I wasn't part of a club for a long time, it was a nice "home" to travel to.


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## Northern GSDs

W.Oliver said:


> Folks,
> 
> I did not start this thread to talk about who should or shouldn't pursue SchH. I didn't start this thread to talk about what kind of dog should or shouldn't be worked in SchH. *I started this thread to grouse about the folks who come-out, train for a period of time, then just peter-out and fade away because its too much work, their dog isn't perfect, the weather isn't nice, on and on when they're simply not committed*.


Wayne, I totally hear what you are saying. That said, having read and participated in many discussion revolving around this, I am also going to add the phenomenon of hanging out for a significant part of club training time socializing and chatting. Training time that to me, is time wasted and taken away from really working dogs. For some people, is it perhaps that the social element of Schutzhund is the primary driving force for doing SchH? I don't know. If so, I guess that is ok if that fits with the culture of the club. So does this also come down to working with a club whose goals and purposes fit with those of the individual and thus the collective of the group (eg more social, or higher level competition based etc)? 

Just throwing this out there, and this is my humble opinion only, but does some (much?) of this perhaps come down to how some folks perhaps have a romanticized _idea_ of "Schutzhund" or having a "Schutzhund Dog" but maybe not all the hard work and dedication to _focused_ _training_ that comes with truly doing it? Again, maybe this goes back to the "social" element of Schutzhund.

I guess at the end of the day, it depends not only on what an individual's goals are in the sport, but also on what the club's overall philosophy and culture is....and the fit between the two? As Lies stated, the overall “synergy of the club”?


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## katieliz

opcorn:


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## W.Oliver

Northern GSDs said:


> ....I am also going to add the phenomenon of hanging out for a significant part of club training time socializing and chatting.
> 
> Just throwing this out there, and this is my humble opinion only, but does some (much?) of this perhaps come down to how some folks perhaps have a romanticized _idea_ of "Schutzhund" or having a "Schutzhund Dog" but maybe not all the hard work and dedication to _focused_ _training_ that comes with truly doing it? Again, maybe this goes back to the "social" element of Schutzhund.
> 
> I guess at the end of the day, it depends not only on what an individual's goals are in the sport, but also on what the club's overall philosophy and culture is....and the fit between the two? As Lies stated, the overall “synergy of the club”?


Totally agree with you. For me, training just to train has been my MO for many years, but the club I've belong to for the past 3.5 years, working toward a title is mandatory for membership. Having said that, my dog club people are some of my dearest friends...I love them, and not sure I can imagine my life without them now???? They're like family, and on rare occasions, we squabble like family....I wouldn't have it any other way. So the socializing, and having a bite to eat between tracking and OB is a valuable part of the day...except when I eat something that doesn't agree with my stomach, then protection can be a bit more challenging!!! LOL 

I think for many of the "comer and goers" the romantic portion is usually the protection work. The types that are looking for the macho aspect of their dog, and when they realize it is a three phase effort, the romance dies. Which is ironic to me, because my favorite part is tracking...which some say means I am a bit off in the head.

To any "Newbie" reading this thread, the absolute key to any level of success is certainly commitment and DON'T QUIT, but as important is finding a club you click with, folks you can connect with, bond with, and enjoy. For me, like I said, my club members are very important friends to me.


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## Liesje

Nicole I think you are spot on. Some days we just talk talk talk. Other days we are more focused. Many times we decide ahead of time that we're going to run training like a mock trial or some such. Even within a single club the atmosphere changes all the time depending on the weather, peoples' moods, and where we are in preparing for a trial.

Schutzhund is a social event for me but 90% of my chatting has to do with dogs and the training. I like picking everything apart and can't do that, say, if I'm having lunch with a girl friend who doesn't like dogs. My spouse is completely apathetic towards dogs and dog training and prefers that I go to Schutzhund for the weekend and get it out of my system!


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## Northern GSDs

Absolutely agree. There is certainly nothing wrong with enjoying the social aspect of SchH within the club - didn't mean to imply there was and hope it did not come across that way LOL. 

And certainly nothing wrong at all with a club that is more socially based rather than competition based or vice versa. So long as it fits well with the members who comprise the club. Hence why it is a good thing to have clubs with different cultures and goals so as to satisfy the goals and desires of various groups of people if they are in the "right" club for them


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## KeeganM

> To any "Newbie" reading this thread, the absolute key to any level of success is certainly commitment and DON'T QUIT, but as important is finding a club you click with, folks you can connect with, bond with, and enjoy. For me, like I said, my club members are very important friends to me.


I am getting a working-line GSD for the first time in my life. My goal is to get at least titled SCH 1... IF the dog has what it takes. I work a full time job, and have many other things that I have to do on a daily basis, but this dog is my relief. My fun, and my joy. I think far too many people get into some of this stuff for the competition side of it. I am doing it to give my dog a feeling of purpose, and to give me a release of stress and working with others who also share my love for the breed and their abilities. I really hope that the Sugar Run Schutzhund club here in western PA is going to meet my needs... I certainly, as a "newbie" will be willing to do whatever is needed of me as a new member.

Don't others have the same outlook? or am I the "odd" one?


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## Northern GSDs

Liesje said:


> I like picking everything apart and can't do that, say, if I'm having lunch with a girl friend who doesn't like dogs. My spouse is completely apathetic towards dogs and dog training and prefers that I go to Schutzhund for the weekend and get it out of my system!


I can completely relate to this!!! LOL

It was really interesting to read your post Lies - you say it is 90% social for you but I HAVE to say this...you look at the accomplishments you have made with your crew and the level of dedication you contribute (and evident passion for training). I would have to say that while it is highly social for you, you are also in it for the _training_ aspect big time.


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## W.Oliver

KeeganM said:


> Don't others have the same outlook? or am I the "odd" one?


We could be siblings...your views are very comparable to my own....and many consider me odd, but that has nothing to do with dog training.:laugh:

Even if we fail in the attempt to title our dogs...they will be trained better than most you will ever meet in the companion/pet world.


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## W.Oliver

Northern GSDs said:


> It was really interesting to read your post Lies - you say it is 90% social for you but I HAVE to say this...you look at the accomplishments you have made with your crew and the level of dedication you contribute (and evident passion for training). I would have to say that while it is highly social for you, you are also in it for the _training_ aspect big time.


I have trained with her a few times and all I can say to your post is Amen.


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## Northern GSDs

KeeganM said:


> *I think far too many people get into some of this stuff for the competition side of it*. I am doing it to give my dog a feeling of purpose, and to give me a release of stress and working with others who also share my love for the breed and their abilities. I really hope that the Sugar Run Schutzhund club here in western PA is going to meet my needs... I certainly, as a "newbie" will be willing to do whatever is needed of me as a new member.
> 
> Don't others have the same outlook? or am I the "odd" one?


I think I personally see the competition aspect a bit differently than simply "competing"....I have a competitive nature to my training but not in the way of competing against others per se but rather in trying to be the best that I and my dog can be as a "team". That is what brings me the most joy in the sport - working with my dog and problem solving. While I do enjoy some of the "social" aspect of the sport, this social aspect relates to discussions revolving around dogs and training.


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## gagsd

When I got my first GSD..... I was going to do SAR. I contacted a group and they sent me several articles to read. It was VERY clear that I was not able to commit. I wasn't upset with myself, the group, or anything else. It was just a fact.
School-age child, full-time job, college/grad school…..poor...... are things that do not equate to being able to participate in SAR.

I tried schutzhund. Really piddled around for a few years. I was one of "those" people Wayne! Although when I quit going, I did let both of my previous clubs know. 

Now that I have the right dog and the right club.... I go as much as possible. I am committed. But it is a BIG commitment. My TD recently told me once a week is just not enough. So I am trying to make it twice a week. And that is a 220 mile round trip. So gas is my biggest expense. My car is an 2008, and I have 90K miles on it!


And you know, I watch the “new” people come out. You kind of get a feel who will stay and who will go. I am very impressed in our club by the older members. They don’t give up. They keep helping people. They keep sharing knowledge.
I hope I can grow up to be that patient!


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## W.Oliver

gagsd said:


> I am very impressed in our club by the older members. They don’t give up. They keep helping people. They keep sharing knowledge.
> I hope I can grow up to be that patient!


I am unclear how the senior folks put up with me, let alone the new people....it defines the passion for what they do.


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## Freestep

W.Oliver said:


> So for you whiners, shut-up, get some gear, take your dog to a club and DON'T QUIT!


It sure is easy to call someone a "whiner" when you don't have to walk a mile in their shoes. You are very fortunate to be in the position you are. Hope you don't ever have anything happen to you that would cause you to lose your abilities.


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## onyx'girl

W.Oliver said:


> I think many of you are fortunate that for whatever reason Vandal has not jumped in here....she'd test your nerve.
> 
> So for you whiners, shut-up, get some gear, take your dog to a club and DON'T QUIT!
> 
> Love,
> 
> Wayne


 I think Vandal is busy with her gorgeous horses! 
I would love to take my dog to a club....but we aren't training all month!


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## Liesje

Freestep said:


> It sure is easy to call someone a "whiner" when you don't have to walk a mile in their shoes. You are very fortunate to be in the position you are. Hope you don't ever have anything happen to you that would cause you to lose your abilities.


Well I don't speak for Wayne, but I also don't get the attitude that being in a club is such a privilege. I am in a club today because I worked my butt off for almost two years before I even HAD a dog worthy of training in SchH trying to get a half decent club to get together and STAY together. Jane probably feels the same, she can attest to the fact that we are the only to original members of our "club" which has gone through so many bylaw, venue, and member changes it's almost disturbing. I am not just talking about physical work and attending training but all the necessary dirt work that has to happen for a club to exist. We don't have members that own acres of land in the country and already have a stock pile of equipment. We've got to find our own training fields that are large enough and SAFE enough, build the equipment or pay someone to do it or reimburse someone for it, get the grass mowed, somehow find tracking for 6-12 dogs every weekend in the city. I've probably wasted more money getting the club where it is today than I've spent on meaningful training time with the club but now that we can train regularly with decent facilities and have access to good and better helperwork, I take great pride in knowing that I stuck my butt out for years and finally have a chance at actually titling my dogs. This is not just a club where I showed up on day when everything was already functioning like a well oiled machine, got my "trial period", paid my dues, and started training my dogs. But it has all been worth it and even if my dogs were gone tomorrow I'd still go because I love being there and I feel I can genuinely call everyone there my friend. Another member is going through some difficult changes right now (not having anything to do with Schutzhund training) so training our dogs has been the last thing on some of our minds right now but if something happened to me I know I could count on these club members to back me up.

Everyone has to make sacrifices regardless of physical abilities. Heck I would be living over 1000 miles away if it weren't for my Schutzhund training and I'm being completely serious.


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## Freestep

Liesje said:


> Well I don't speak for Wayne, but I also don't get the attitude that being in a club is such a privilege.


I know it's a lot of hard work and sacrifice, but as you say, you love it and and all your friends are there.... I would consider that in itself a privilege. It's fortunate you have the opportunities to do the things that you love, even though (especially since?) you have put blood, sweat and tears into it.

I simply don't have the energy or desire that I used to, apparently, or I could suck it up and commit to formal training. But these days I have to prioritize, and a lot of the things I enjoy are on the back burner. I imagine a lot of other folks are in the same boat.


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## onyx'girl

holland said:


> I am curious about a few things though why do you have to have a thick skin to do schutzhund is that in the rule book somehere or is that one of the rules they are forever changing and who made that rule anyway...


Yes it is in the rule book

When I've gone to clubs to visit,(other than Liberty) most members aren't really friendly and outgoing to make 'me' feel comfortable. It is up to 'me' to step out of my comfort zone and ask questions and interact. 
If you aren't a known person or someone with history in the sport, you really aren't noticed or valued. 
I went to a club not knowing anyone(they knew I was interested in becoming a member) and when one guy asked me where I previously trained, his question to me was "does your other trainer have any titles on his dogs?" It was ironic, because my previous trainer was way more experienced than the guy asking the question....and yes he had several titles/SchH 3's! 
I let the question slide with a smile and just said yes. Biting my tongue is a challenge more often than not. 
When people visit our group, I try to be friendly, because I know how it feels to be ignored. Going by yourself to a new club without knowing anyone can be pretty intimidating, thick skin is a necessity, IMO. If you can't deal with that, then the actual training in front of everyone judging your handling won't cut it for long either.


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## Liesje

Freestep said:


> I simply don't have the energy or desire that I used to, apparently, or I could suck it up and commit to formal training. But these days I have to prioritize, and a lot of the things I enjoy are on the back burner. I imagine a lot of other folks are in the same boat.


OK but I just don't get what this has to do with what Wayne is saying, with regard to Schutzhund and people's experiences with various clubs? I mean, I wish I could spend thousands on new camera equipment but I just can't, but I don't hold that against other people who can, it's just too expensive of a hobby for me to take seriously... That is what has be confused about this thread, how these responses specifically relate to Schutzhund and what have people's experiences been. Of course not everyone can do anything they want with their dogs at any time. What are you looking for from Schutzhund club folk or what could they have done to make your experience better or able to continue?


----------



## BR870

Perhaps I am just lucky, but my club has been really welcoming. They were a very small local club. Also, I have met an experienced local through my breeder that I can train with here close by during the week. She's also been very nice, and has reached out to help me.

Of course I am trying to give back too. I've volunteered to help put together a website for my club. Its something I've always wanted to learn to do, and its my way of giving back something.

You get back what you put in has been my experience with life in general...


----------



## W.Oliver

Freestep said:


> It sure is easy to call someone a "whiner" when you don't have to walk a mile in their shoes. You are very fortunate to be in the position you are. Hope you don't ever have anything happen to you that would cause you to lose your abilities.


** comment removed by Admin**


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## Xeph

> ** removed by Admin**


Great attitude...


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## W.Oliver

It is just old and stale.....


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## Liesje

One probably needs a thicker skin in Wayne's thread than at Schutzhund!


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## lhczth

What a great representative for our breed and the world of SchH. No wonder they are both dying. This attitude is both sad and very shameful.


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## Smithie86

I think it depends on the club and makeup and why you want to train. 

There are all levels of people, experience, time availability and focus. To us, it is something we love to do, but it is not a lifestyle, per se. 

Both when I was at Menlo Park and at clubs in Europe (Germany and Netherlands), there were people of all levels at the clubs. Each club did have the "mentor" person for new people. Answer questions, talk about what is expected, introduce people, etc. People had jobs, kids, extended family care, school, etc. If kids came, there were people to jump in and help watch, entertain.

You were expected to support others, watch, ask questions, volunteer. These were the types of clubs that dogs from any breed and breeder could come to.

We have people that we train with from all levels, ability, time availability, etc. But, they like it. So, if someone is not able to come due to holidays, vacations, etc - it is no big issue. They know what the commitment is and it is not held against them. We normally do not do any dog stuff on Sat (unless competition), as that is when daughter is training for tennis. 

We encourage balance - you need that to be able to re-charge and you will come back stronger.


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## qbchottu

I guess I got really lucky with my club. From day one, they welcomed me with open arms. Everyone was helpful, kind and giving. They let me use their equipment, taught me the basics and were always patient with me. I can't thank them enough for their help. I owe them a huge debt of gratitude. If they behaved like some people here, I would have never returned after my first visit. I've gone from knowing nothing about the sport to being on the way to training two dogs in Sch. All thanks to the kindness of strangers. Be kind and empathetic to newbies. You too were new once. 

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."


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## Jack's Dad

W.Oliver said:


> Folks,
> 
> I did not start this thread to talk about who should or shouldn't pursue SchH. I didn't start this thread to talk about what kind of dog should or shouldn't be worked in SchH. I started this thread to grouse about the folks who come-out, train for a period of time, then just peter-out and fade away because its too much work, their dog isn't perfect, the weather isn't nice, on and on when they're simply not committed.
> 
> I think many of you are fortunate that for whatever reason Vandal has not jumped in here....she'd test your nerve.
> 
> So for you whiners, shut-up, get some gear, take your dog to a club and DON'T QUIT!
> 
> Love,
> 
> Wayne


Yep. Too bad Vandal hasn't jumped in here. 
She might even have a word or two for the OP.


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## Northern GSDs

qbchottu said:


> I guess I got really lucky with my club. From day one, they welcomed me with open arms. Everyone was helpful, kind and giving. They let me use their equipment, taught me the basics and were always patient with me. I can't thank them enough for their help. I owe them a huge debt of gratitude. If they behaved like some people here, I would have never returned after my first visit. I've gone from knowing nothing about the sport to being on the way to training two dogs in Sch. All thanks to the kindness of strangers. Be kind and empathetic to newbies. You too were new once.
> 
> "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."


:thumbup:

Just from reading your post, I am willing to gamble a bet that YOU too had much to contribute and you helped out where and how YOU could. This is what is should be about - a reciprocal working relationship amongst members. People who are willing to exchange help given for help received are the backbone of any good club. Newbie or seasoned, we all have something to contribute if we are willing to work together for the success of the club rather than the success of any one or small group of persons within it. 

There is much to be said for the detriments of lateral/horizontal violence within any sport club (not just SchH). It is up to every individual to decide whether or not to participate in it and up the the leadership within the club to not encourage or be a part of it.

So for anyone who pursues this thread who is thinking of getting involved with the sport, be prepared to take the time to ensure the club is a good fit for you and you for the club. It is a two-way street. 

PS: This is coming from someone who pewtered off for a good portion of scheduled training time to spend more time with a dog whose health was rapidly declining and for whom I knew I would have little time left with. Did it make me a horrible club member? Maybe to some, but at the end of the day, as Sue said, it is about balance. For me, the priority at that time was not club and training but rather spending precious time with my soon to be gone heart dog.


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## ladyfreckles

I can provide some input from somebody who is currently not involved in Sch, but is considering it. 

Some people are very reactive, like myself. If I get the feeling like I'm not wanted somewhere, or I'm just causing trouble, or an after thought, I leave. If I'm going to be part of a group, they need to be organized and make an attempt to make me feel welcome. A lot of people think that you should just join something to work for it, and that things like community are unimportant and meaningless. They think you don't need to go out of your way to "welcome" people and that the people who need that should just go home.

Well, for people like me community is a big deal. I'm very shy and I can be insecure at times. If I'm going to a club week after week after week, or maybe even multiple times a week, rain or shine, and I get the feeling like my presence is just business, or just tolerated... well yeah, I'd want to leave. I'd rather be somewhere where me and my dog were a part of something.

I can only hope any Sch club I join is that considerate and actually makes attempts to really make newcomers feel welcome, because that attitude won't.

Sometimes it has nothing to do with laziness or a lack of commitment, but everything to do with the newbie thinking that they're not wanted there. Just food for thought.


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## W.Oliver

W.Oliver said:


> ** comment removed by Admin**


My apologies for overloading and coming up the leash.


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## W.Oliver

Jack's Dad said:


> Yep. Too bad Vandal hasn't jumped in here.
> She might even have a word or two for the OP.


Absolutely no doubt about that...she has kicked me in the backside more than once on this forum. She has some very strong views on who should and shouldn't be involved in SchH, and I am comfortable in concluding that I do not meet her requirements. Having said that, my nerve is such that I wouldn't be run off.

Regardless of how rough she can be, you have to respect her experience and knowledge....and on some sick level, I really love debating with her.


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## onyx'girl

ladyfreckles said:


> I can provide some input from somebody who is currently not involved in Sch, but is considering it.
> 
> Some people are very reactive, like myself. If I get the feeling like I'm not wanted somewhere, or I'm just causing trouble, or an after thought, I leave. If I'm going to be part of a group, they need to be organized and make an attempt to make me feel welcome. A lot of people think that you should just join something to work for it, and that things like community are unimportant and meaningless. They think you don't need to go out of your way to "welcome" people and that the people who need that should just go home.
> 
> Well, for people like me community is a big deal. I'm very shy and I can be insecure at times. If I'm going to a club week after week after week, or maybe even multiple times a week, rain or shine, and I get the feeling like my presence is just business, or just tolerated... well yeah, I'd want to leave. I'd rather be somewhere where me and my dog were a part of something.
> 
> I can only hope any Sch club I join is that considerate and actually makes attempts to really make newcomers feel welcome, because that attitude won't.
> 
> Sometimes it has nothing to do with laziness or a lack of commitment, but everything to do with the newbie thinking that they're not wanted there. Just food for thought.


:thumbup:


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## Smithie86

It is not who and who should not be involved in SCH. It is also recognizing what everyone brings to the table, per se, knowing your level of commitment (and not lying to one's self), knowing what your dog is, capable of doing and what you can do together.


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## Jason L

If I am not mistaken, the guy Wayne is talking about expressed some interest in helper work in the beginning before he disappeared/left/ditched?

Helpers, man ... can't live with them, can't live without them ...


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## cliffson1

I agree that WO's comments were not encouraging, but I do think he was trying to bring up some issues that are common in clubs and sometimes when we look at things at the point of the greater good as opposed to ourselves we become enlightened. Every dog cannot do Sch and every person can not fit Sch into their life. Also, every person does not have the wherewithall to thrive in every club. I trained with a top national trainer years ago, who could be brutal on handlers. I have seen grown men cry in the club. I eventually fell by the side because it was difficult to adjust to harsh treatment. Yet, I have immense respect for the trainer and his club for developing some great sch dogs, handlers, and trainers. We are very good friends....didn't work for me, but its because I didn't want to deal with that to continue to learn. But that's my "personal" issue because many stayed and did wonderfully....I can't trash him or the club because I wasn't willing to abide by that club's setup. I went to other clubs and had great time and still accomplished what I set out to do for the dog. I had to realize that Sch is really for the dog's growth and development. I think there are clubs that suit the needs of most people that want to do this sport for their dog. But the club can't be expected to be all things to all people. Because some people and some dogs are not cut out for this....nothing wrong with that on either part.


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## bocron

Well said, Cliff. I think the point being that hopefuls need to find a club that suits their needs while allowing them to reach THEIR goals. There are clubs in my vicinity that are totally geared towards "podium" performances, then there are those that are training "real" dogs, etc. These are things I've heard from visitors to our club who are checking out all the options around here. Some stay here and train with us, others move on to one of the other clubs, that's fine. I realize that there are some areas where there is only one club within a reasonable distance, and that's a bummer. We ended up leaving the club we'd been with for years and starting our own to suit our needs. I guess that's the way most clubs get started.

Annette


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## robk

cliffson1 said:


> I agree that WO's comments were not encouraging, but I do think he was trying to bring up some issues that are common in clubs and sometimes when we look at things at the point of the greater good as opposed to ourselves we become enlightened. Every dog cannot do Sch and every person can not fit Sch into their life. Also, every person does not have the wherewithall to thrive in every club. *I trained with a top national trainer years ago, who could be brutal on handlers. I have seen grown men cry in the club. I eventually fell by the side because it was difficult to adjust to harsh treatment*. Yet, I have immense respect for the trainer and his club for developing some great sch dogs, handlers, and trainers. We are very good friends....didn't work for me, but its because I didn't want to deal with that to continue to learn. But that's my "personal" issue because many stayed and did wonderfully....I can't trash him or the club because I wasn't willing to abide by that club's setup. I went to other clubs and had great time and still accomplished what I set out to do for the dog. I had to realize that Sch is really for the dog's growth and development. I think there are clubs that suit the needs of most people that want to do this sport for their dog. But the club can't be expected to be all things to all people. Because some people and some dogs are not cut out for this....nothing wrong with that on either part.


 
I hate people like this. I have worked with them and for them in employment life many times and have NO respect for them. Its one thing to have to put up with this type of treatment in the work place, Its quite another thing to put up with it in our extracurricular life. People that treat other people harshly can drop dead.


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## Northern GSDs

Cliff, Sue, Annette...very well said!


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## ladyfreckles

robk said:


> I hate people like this. I have worked with them and for them in employment life many times and have NO respect for them. Its one thing to have to put up with this type of treatment in the work place, Its quite another thing to put up with it in our extracurricular life. People that treat other people harshly can drop dead.


I agree. It's abusive and cruel. The people who can handle that are usually just as hardened and think it's okay to treat other people like that. I can handle criticism, what I can't handle is someone treating me like a failure and making me cry just because I was having trouble learning something.

I need a nurturing environment to learn. What's the point of a club or community if there's no community aspect and nobody helps each other?


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## robk

ladyfreckles said:


> I agree. It's abusive and cruel. The people who can handle that are usually just as hardened and think it's okay to treat other people like that. I can handle criticism, what I can't handle is someone treating me like a failure and making me cry just because I was having trouble learning something.
> 
> I need a nurturing environment to learn. What's the point of a club or community if there's no community aspect and nobody helps each other?


 
There is a difference in being tough and having high expectations. I actually really enjoy the grit of having to rise to a challenge and pushing my self out of my comfort zone. However, If some one is condensending and verbally abusive to me, we part company.


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## katieliz

important to distinguish between tough and mean. tough is cool. mean is the epitome of uncool.


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## Emoore

katieliz said:


> important to distinguish between tough and mean. tough is cool. mean is the epitome of uncool.


My boxing coach is tough but not mean. If you can treat someone with respect and dignity while punching them repeatedly in the face, then you can daggum sure treat someone with respect and dignity while teaching them to train their dog.


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## Freestep

ladyfreckles said:


> I can handle criticism, what I can't handle is someone treating me like a failure and making me cry just because I was having trouble learning something.


I wonder what people like that do if their dog is having trouble learning something.


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## cliffson1

I haven't seen many clubs that draft people into them or make you stay.....I didn't say the person was mean or unfair....he was tough like a drill sargeant. Some people are looking for warm and fuzzy.....well do agility or obedience or rally. But great comraderie has been developed in Sch and other bitesports. But just like the Army has basic training which can be very demanding, Sch is a discipline that requires a very serious approach. Frankly, it is teaching the dog to do protection work when done right, and should be very seriously approached....and while people can have fun within the club, personal baggage really hinders the club and the dog. I've seen it happen to many times.


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## Xeph

> well do agility or obedience or rally


Really not as "Warm and fuzzy" as you might think. Especially with the older hardcore obedience people....


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## W.Oliver

W.Oliver said:


> At our club, we had a new guy coming, and I liked him. After he'd been coming for awhile, I decided to give him one of our club ball caps. Two weeks later he was gone...haven't seen or heard from him in months! I like the comers and stayers...it is the comers and goers that make me crazy!





W.Oliver said:


> ....and it really bums be out when I like the new person and they don't stick with it.





W.Oliver said:


> Key point there for "newbies" is to attend the club without a dog, and keep going..there is much to learn without a dog.





W.Oliver said:


> My peeve is simply that I have gotten invested in more than a few folks, and then wham, they disappear.





W.Oliver said:


> Like I said earlier, what really bums me out are the folks I like, I get attached to them, I enjoy training with them, and then they peter-out and fade away.





W.Oliver said:


> If a person has the commitment and desire, but the body isn't able, any club worth a  will work with that person when they are able to come. The club I belong to has a person with a condition that at times limits her ability to participate....I consider her a valuable member of the club, and would be broken hearted if she left.





W.Oliver said:


> I view Schutzhund as a lifestyle.





W.Oliver said:


> I started this thread to grouse about the folks who come-out, train for a period of time, then just peter-out and fade away because its too much work, their dog isn't perfect, the weather isn't nice, on and on when they're simply not committed.





W.Oliver said:


> To any "Newbie" reading this thread, the absolute key to any level of success is certainly commitment and DON'T QUIT, but as important is finding a club you click with, folks you can connect with, bond with, and enjoy. For me, like I said, my club members are very important friends to me.


I'll be the first to admit that my sense of humor is a bit twisted, and obviously some do not grasp the satirical nature of my writing.....but I really struggle with the notion that my comments were not generally encouraging. I don't read a message of hate or discouragement in the quotes above...simply one of frustration with folks who lack an understanding of what they're getting involved in, and insufficient motivation to continue.

Now I will admit, there have been a poster or two that I found to be off point and taking the spirit of this thread in a bizzare direction.....and I may have been a bit selfish in responding in a delightfully curt fashion, but I did apologize for coming up the leash on that specific, so if it is that to which has been referred, then I understand.....but beyond that, I submit a thread that has been generally positive on a negative although presented with a slant that may have escaped some.


----------



## cliffson1

One last thing....this is why a lot of the clubs are closed to new members and scrutinize prospective members so closey.....because Sch requires training discipline and in order for the club to progress and not fall apart members have to be there to learn or contribute, and leave personal baggage at door. If a member is doing one of those two things they usually have no problems...As Annette said there are different goals of clubs depending on the people who formulated the club. Most clubs in America are started or have been started by people who have competed at regional or national levels. You don't get there unless you are dedicated and serious about training. They are looking for likeminded people to join the club. Likeminded doesn't mean regional or national competitors(everybody can't do that), like minded is a person who is dedicated and serious about training TOWARD the goal of the club. Some people want to join to show their dog off and socialize.....those kinda of members usually cause problems over time....seen it happen to many times.


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## onyx'girl

I just want to train my dog. I don't want all the drama and cliquey stuff that comes with "club" atmosphere. 
I am there to learn, and I don't talk as much as the others in my group,because I am usually focusing on the dogs on the field. That and we have freight trains that run by constantly...conversation is limited with all that noise!


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## cliffson1

Your comments were generally postive about the subject matter, just the one comment probably wasn't needed.


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## W.Oliver

Understood....Thank you for the response.


----------



## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> I haven't seen many clubs that draft people into them or make you stay.....I didn't say the person was mean or unfair....he was tough like a drill sargeant. Some people are looking for warm and fuzzy.....well do agility or obedience or rally. But great comraderie has been developed in Sch and other bitesports. But just like the Army has basic training which can be very demanding, Sch is a discipline that requires a very serious approach. Frankly, it is teaching the dog to do protection work when done right, and should be very seriously approached....and while people can have fun within the club, personal baggage really hinders the club and the dog. I've seen it happen to many times.


Agree Cliff. 

I have been accused of being too blunt. I am a more of a coach than a teacher. My training partner and I sometimes snap at each other or give orders instead of make requests when we are in training mode. We understand why and don't take it personally. That is why we work so well together. Not everyone can deal with this.

We have had members come and go. I stopped worrying about it a long time ago. No club can be everything to everyone.


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## Liesje

cliffson1 said:


> One last thing....this is why a lot of the clubs are closed to new members and scrutinize prospective members so closey.....because Sch requires training discipline and in order for the club to progress and not fall apart members have to be there to learn or contribute, and leave personal baggage at door.


And also, the reason why we have been "closed" to new members is because we are just like all the other people in this thread complaining about time and money constraints, WE all have that too. With just one, maybe one-and-a-half helpers on a good day, there are only so many dogs we can accommodate before the equipment and the helper literally break down. Our priority is our own group. I don't see why anyone would not understand that. Yes, we need new people in the sport for it to continue but many clubs struggle even with a core group of really committed people and just can't survive on a constant influx of new people that just really aren't sure if this is what they want. The 80/20 rule definitely applies. Any day we have prospective members visit, 80 percent of the time is taken up by them. Usually when we are in a position to consider new members we ask anyone interested to come on a certain date at a certain time and just have a "visit day" focused on that. Still, you would not believe how many supposedly committed people don't even show up on the visit day. Again, because we train in a more urban area and do not own the facility, we can't just be a free for all. We train at a police and firestation so we have to be careful about where we park (so the firetrucks can get out!) and make sure everyone is accounted for because they are kind enough to let us use the bathrooms. We would love to be everything for everyone, but we just can't, not unless one of our members wins the lottery and can buy us some private rural land with plenty of privacy, parking, and a nice club house! But we don't have those things and probably never will.


----------



## Fast

W.Oliver said:


> I have become jaded....I don't like new people anymore.
> 
> I have been training GSDs since 1997 and in SchH since 2008...and I have not accomplished anything in the way of a title....but I have always trained EVERY week, rain or shine, hot or cold, snow or not. Don't get me wrong...someday I'll get around to titling a GSD.
> 
> Back in my OB and agility days, new people and their dogs were exciting, refreshing, and enjoyable. Now, after a few years of living the SchH lifestyle, and breaking my backside to accomplish nothing....new people and their freakin' optimism piss me off. I hardly even listen anymore, because as soon as it is raining...they won't be there. When it gets cold...they won't be there. When they can't get their dog to do this or that...they won't be there. When they realize you can't just train at club...they won't be there.
> 
> I honestly never thought I would become one of those jaded a-holes...but I am, and I don't care. I just train to train because I love it....and I want the new people to go somewhere else!


First off, W. Oliver, you are a newbie yourself. 3years!!! HAHAHA :laugh: 

I think your best bet is to sit down and be quiet. You see, there are many stages in a shutzhunders life. The I Don't Know How Much I Really Don't Know Stage of life is where you seem to be. It normally strikes around the 5th year in the sport, so you are wee bit precocious It's during this stage that many a schutzhunder becomes intolerant of those he feels are beneath him. The problem is that those people with more experience than you are laughing at you. They are all watching you and knowing how much you are embarrassing yourself. Do yourself a favor and be quiet. And in few years down the road you'll come back and thank me.

Also you need to take these new people under your wing and help them instead of making them the focus of your dislike. I understand that they irk you for dropping out or whatever, but you should learn to hate the sin not the sinner. One of the things that motivates me to go to the club is because they are not just my club members but also my friends. But a new person comes into your club and they are unwelcome. So the first time they have a problem they leave because they don't feel supported by the club. Maybe you are part of the problem?


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## onyx'girl

> And in few years down the road you'll come back and thank me.


 Will he know where to find you?


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## W.Oliver

Fast said:


> Also you need to take these new people under your wing and help them instead of making them the focus of your dislike.


Fast, did you read the thread, or simply fail to comprehend what you read? Clearly you are just another that missed the satirical nature of the writing and are stuck in the literal.


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## Zahnburg

W.Oliver said:


> Clearly you are just another that missed the satirical nature of the writing and are stuck in the literal.


Mr. Swift,

Satire does not fly so well on this forum. So, Jonathan, when you tell folks that you are boiling an Irish baby for supper, don't be surprised if the police come knocking at your door.


----------



## BR870

Zahnburg said:


> Mr. Swift,
> 
> Satire does not fly so well on this forum. So, Jonathan, when you tell folks that you are boiling an Irish baby for supper, don't be surprised if the police come knocking at your door.


Ohhhh... A Swift joke. I tried one of those here once, but it didn't go over...


----------



## Zahnburg

BR870 said:


> Ohhhh... A Swift joke. I tried one of those here once, but it didn't go over...


 
And that is why I over-played it so much. In the vague hope that people would ....ah, forget it. :help:


----------



## Fast

I guess I must hear too much of this crap in real life to find the humor.

Sorry if I was obtuse.


----------



## W.Oliver

No worries, but allow me to refine the spirit of the writing for you. The thread isn't about my dislike for newbies, although I am certainly one myself as compare to Anne or Cliff, Lisa or Chris. The thread is about my dissappointment with new people I like, that I have enjoyed training with, who I am invested in.....and for a litany of reasons, depart.

I hope that helps.


----------



## Northern GSDs

Liesje said:


> And also, the reason why we have been "closed" to new members is because we are just like all the other people in this thread complaining about time and money constraints, WE all have that too. With just one, maybe one-and-a-half helpers on a good day, there are only so many dogs we can accommodate before the equipment and the helper literally break down. Our priority is our own group. I don't see why anyone would not understand that. Yes, we need new people in the sport for it to continue but many clubs struggle even with a core group of really committed people and just can't survive on a constant influx of new people that just really aren't sure if this is what they want. The 80/20 rule definitely applies. Any day we have prospective members visit, 80 percent of the time is taken up by them. Usually when we are in a position to consider new members we ask anyone interested to come on a certain date at a certain time and just have a "visit day" focused on that. Still, you would not believe how many supposedly committed people don't even show up on the visit day. Again, because we train in a more urban area and do not own the facility, we can't just be a free for all. We train at a police and firestation so we have to be careful about where we park (so the firetrucks can get out!) and make sure everyone is accounted for because they are kind enough to let us use the bathrooms. We would love to be everything for everyone, but we just can't, not unless one of our members wins the lottery and can buy us some private rural land with plenty of privacy, parking, and a nice club house! But we don't have those things and probably never will.


Lies, I completely get where you are coming from and your insights on the matter. I think what you have stated is both totally valid and fair.


----------



## W.Oliver

Fast said:


> Sorry if I was obtuse.


 
Regarding your intellectual state being greater than 90 degrees.....I think it is apparent you simply didn't read very far into the thread before you got insulting...unlike some who simply couldn't grasp the nature of it.


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## bocron

I'm with you W, but trust me after 15 years (over 25 for DH) you will learn to enjoy the ones you like, even if for just a while. Then the ones who do stick around become like treasures, and many are good friends for many years. 
Don't even get me started on training new helpers. My husband has started off many of the helpers in our area, we find they have about a 3 year shelf life before they think they now know everything and take off to form their own "better" group LOL. We don't even get offended anymore, it's just not worth the time. 
On a brighter note, one of our club's helpers is getting married tomorrow at the club! Most of the club members showed up today to help get the clubhouse ready, set up chairs and generally harass the bride and groom. Here is a pic of the clubhouse ready for the brunch tomorrow after the ceremony. Hopefully I'll get some time tomorrow to get some decent pics and post.
This is our clubhouse, which is where we do obedience if the weather is nasty. Usually the room is lined with dog crates and dog beds LOL.


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## onyx'girl

Wishing the newlyweds lots of nice calm deep bites on all their endeavors and a focus for their future! Congrats to them!
I agree....without good/great helpers we are doomed for the protection phase. Cheers to the helpers that stick with it and make our dogs shine!


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## W.Oliver

Thank you Annette....you clearly get it. I don't expect the Menza crowd here, but still, some are simply amazing in their inability to grasp the obvious....even when one provides a handle.

I spent today doing Helper work with puppies, and with all the subtle aspects to learn as a training Helper...it will be many, many years before I grow into my britches, let alone grow out of them....besides, my club is family...I couldn't leave.


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## katieliz

that would be mensa. there are some here. it's easy to misinterpret your posts. to someone who doesn't know you, you can seem kinda mean-spirited. i'm not sure it's because of any inability on the part of the crowd to get it and grasp the obvious tho.


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## gagsd

katieliz said:


> that would be mensa. there are some here. it's easy to misinterpret your posts. to someone who doesn't know you, you can seem kinda mean-spirited. i'm not sure it's because of any inability on the part of the crowd to get it and grasp the obvious tho.


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Xeph

> to someone who doesn't know you, you can seem kinda mean-spirited


Bing


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## Konotashi

This thread has kind of pushed me more toward doing SchH. I'm still not 100% sure I want to do it, but this has sort of pushed me in the right direction. SchH isn't easy on the dog, mentally, so why should it be rainbows and sunshine for the handler? This thread kind of showed me what to expect, and I wouldn't start out in a sport that I couldn't put my all into, especially a sport as serious as Schutzhund.


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## Glacier

Konotashi said:


> This thread has kind of pushed me more toward doing SchH. I'm still not 100% sure I want to do it, but this has sort of pushed me in the right direction. SchH isn't easy on the dog, mentally, so why should it be rainbows and sunshine for the handler? This thread kind of showed me what to expect, and I wouldn't start out in a sport that I couldn't put my all into, especially a sport as serious as Schutzhund.


I feel the same way, I want to enter the sport even more now. However I know that I still have a while to go before I have the resources to give the sport my all, I'm even more excited about it now. 

I learn best when I'm directly told what I'm doing wrong, but I also need to be told what I can do to improve. I'm work as a cook, we have a reputation for being some pretty thick skinned folks. We work under pressure and emotions run high sometimes.

I'm currently working full-time, going to school full-time, and volunteering in my free time. When I can commit I will find a club.


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## W.Oliver

katieliz said:


> that would be mensa. there are some here. it's easy to misinterpret your posts. to someone who doesn't know you, you can seem kinda mean-spirited. i'm not sure it's because of any inability on the part of the crowd to get it and grasp the obvious tho.


Thank you, I am an accountant, spelling and keyboards are my nemesis....but stand back when I am at a ten key!

I understand your point, it is similar to Schutzhund. The casual observer witnesses the protection work and naturally assumes the dogs are vicious and out of control.


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## Xeph

> Thank you, I am an accountant, spelling and keyboards are my nemesis


Oh man, you should see me with numbers. Absolute train wreck.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Hi, remember me. You were very nice to me when I was first looking for my GSD. I'm sorry you are feeling this way. 

Just last week, it was cold and drizzly and there I was, the only goober sitting in my car in front of the closed and locked gate at our training facility. Too many people don't show up and they forgot to call to cancel the rest of us (me).

I don't think it's just schutzhund though. I recall a thread mentioning same in someone's agility classes. Same thing happens with basic obedience class. I'm not sure what it is people just come to two or three classes and then they don't ever show up again. 

IMO it seems that Schutzhund is becoming more well known and popular. This is good and bad but ultimately the only way people are going to find out if they like it is if they try it. 

I like it, so I'm the one with the rain coat on wondering where everyone else is....... 

(p.s. loving my dog, she has turned out to be the right dog for my first venture into canine sports)








W.Oliver said:


> That is exactly what I mean when I say I've become one of those jaded a-holes!!! I really used to be you!
> 
> But now I see and understand what the ole-timers were so jaded about...the comers and goers waste time and resources, and it just gets old....and it really bums be out when I like the new person and they don't stick with it.


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## Smithie86

I was thinking of this thread today at training. 

We had a lot of new people - new to sport and with young dogs. We pulled the group together, had everyone introduce themselves. Young dogs started work in OB as a group - I tried to make sure that people that were new (family watching, etc) understood what was going on. Everyone was watching, asking questions.

Then, the "adolescent" group came out. That group worked on focus, heeling, ball play. Gabor instructing, commenting, etc. Then he worked his dog.

Then, did the same with protection.


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## Liesje

I'm reading through it again today too, Sue. We're ready to put feelers out there for a few newbies (I know *gasp*!!!) and are re-vamping our web site. I used to not really think about it and now apparently I have to carefully word everything so as not to offend people that don't even know us yet!


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## Northern GSDs

Smithie86 said:


> I was thinking of this thread today at training.
> 
> We had a lot of new people - new to sport and with young dogs. We pulled the group together, had everyone introduce themselves. Young dogs started work in OB as a group - I tried to make sure that people that were new (family watching, etc) understood what was going on. Everyone was watching, asking questions.
> 
> Then, the "adolescent" group came out. That group worked on focus, heeling, ball play. Gabor instructing, commenting, etc. Then he worked his dog.
> 
> Then, did the same with protection.


This not only sounds like a great training day for all, but also a well structured way in which to achieve it - very nice


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## W.Oliver

Gwenhwyfair said:


> (p.s. loving my dog, she has turned out to be the right dog for my first venture into canine sports)


Outstanding...that is as much as any of us can hope for, I am very happy for you.


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## Smithie86

Northern GSDs said:


> This not only sounds like a great training day for all, but also a well structured way in which to achieve it - very nice



Thank you. We want to ensure good progress and flow. So, went to dinner, dissected training to see what needs to change to ensure correct focus for dogs at the different levels. Had already talked about some changes with people before end of training. This will be on going.....

Also, for new people, need to talk about what and why what is being done. How can you train if you can not explain why and what is being done - how it builds on the foundation?


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## W.Oliver

Dissecting the day sounds so ideal.....genuine opportunity to learn and make progress at the next training day.


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## Smithie86

The cool thing was everyone stayed the entire time and watched. We do our dogs at the end for the protection work, so it doe not turn into a "breeder club". People stayed and watched and we talked about what we were doing with ours as well and why.


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## doggiedad

have a couple of the trained dogs attack them.
give the dogs one of those subtle signals.


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## onyx'girl

Sue, I think if the_ didn't_ stay to watch you work your dogs, that would have been something they'd regret! 

How can you learn unless you watch?
I use to(and still do) stay to the end because I want to observe all the different stages in training.
When I didn't have a dog to work, I wanted to watch the others because each dog is in a different mode of training.
One session can carry over/add on to the next as far as the foundation goes, but from what I've observed the dogs are predictably unpredictable. 
You think it will go one way and they'll change it up, for the better or sometimes worse. Keeps us on our toes for sure! 

This goes for obedience, tracking and protection. I see it in tracking more than the other phases. Especially with the environmental changes they have to work thru.


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## cliffson1

Sue that is the way I think a club should function, but unfortunately many people come to socialize, badmouth where they were before, leave as soon as they do their work, and the biggest one is; many people come with only an hour to spare in the day and want the club to rearrange their proceedings to accomodate them. And if you don't, they sit on the sidelines and complain all the time.....these type people just don't cut it and some of the posts here bring this to my memory!


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## Liesje

Smithie86 said:


> The cool thing was everyone stayed the entire time and watched. We do our dogs at the end for the protection work, so it doe not turn into a "breeder club". People stayed and watched and we talked about what we were doing with ours as well and why.



Do you let the visitors go first? Just curious how others handle it. We've always done club dogs first, with priority to those that are getting ready to trial (or during obedience we might pair off like a mock trial, so my friend and I always go back and forth since our dogs are the same level). Visitors go last. This way they don't really have the option to get their dogs worked and leave. If they have a ton of questions, they can take as much time as they need at the end. It also ensures the club dogs and people that have put in their time get the helperwork they need on a fresh helper, since we usually only have one helper.


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## bocron

At our club, everyone MUST arrive in time for obedience and MUST stay to the end. Probationary members and guests go last (unless it is a young puppy that we are just doing fun stuff with, we do young pups as a group somewhere in the middle). If you need to leave before practice is finished, you pay $5. We have 2 reasons for this, first we TOTALLY feel you learn by watching and the point of the club is the support of the other members, second, we allow people to put their dogs in the crates in our clubhouse, so everyone must help vacuum and disinfect crates before leaving. 
If people show up late, they are told they are welcome to stay and watch but their dog will not be put in the rotation, sorry. If people really want to work and leave, they have the option of paying for private on their schedule. But if they want to be a part of the club, in exchange for the low yearly investment, you invest your time.
Most of our club members go out to dinner together, or we have dinner at the clubhouse, at least once a week. A great opportunity to go over training and goals.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Thank you.

btw - I'm not in a club per-se but a small training group that is rather loosely knit. Which is good and bad but suits my needs for right now. Having been involved in clubs in the past (mostly horse related) I'm not in hurry to get involved in one, yet. My goal is to get my feet good and wet before treading into the deeper water, this way when I join a club I'll hit the ground with a least a bit of foundation.

In the meantime I do not get the extra support being involved in a club provides which got me thinking.....  For Christmas I would like to get (ask for) some videos to further my education in Schutzhund.

I have been perusing the video threads/links on this forum but am wondering what would be the best videos for someone just starting out.

I'd really like to get a better feel for the fundamentals of all three phases of the sport. 

Suggestions would be appreciated!



W.Oliver said:


> Outstanding...that is as much as any of us can hope for, I am very happy for you.


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## Liesje

Now I'm probably getting a bit off topic but for those still reading.... is requiring a dog to be crated in a vehicle and acceptable rule? We have this rule, mainly for the dog's own safety, and had someone leave in a huff because of it. They had two dogs loose in her car and it was like 95 degrees and humid so with the windows at a level that prevents them from escaping we did not feel that was safe given the heat, plus we just don't like dogs loose in vehicles especially two at once. Several members offered to put the dogs in their extra crates or dog trailer and this person looked like we were asking her to send her dogs to a concrete jail cell for the remainder of their lives. Not to mention I've seen this person at other events and have seen the dogs escape. Don't most clubs have rules about how dogs are confined for training? And, to those possible-prospective-Schutzhunders out there, would this rule discourage you from coming?


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## BR870

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Thank you.
> 
> btw - I'm not in a club per-se but a small training group that is rather loosely knit. Which is good and bad but suits my needs for right now. Having been involved in clubs in the past (mostly horse related) I'm not in hurry to get involved in one, yet. My goal is to get my feet good and wet before treading into the deeper water, this way when I join a club I'll hit the ground with a least a bit of foundation.
> 
> In the meantime I do not get the extra support being involved in a club provides which got me thinking.....  For Christmas I would like to get (ask for) some videos to further my education in Schutzhund.
> 
> I have been perusing the video threads/links on this forum but am wondering what would be the best videos for someone just starting out.
> 
> I'd really like to get a better feel for the fundamentals of all three phases of the sport.
> 
> Suggestions would be appreciated!


I can't give you any specific videos, but I can give you the video/trainer list I was given to look for...

Joanne Fleming-Plumb
Gottfried Dildei
Ivan Balabanov
Michael Ellis
Bernhard Flinks

Those are the ones I am going through right now. I am currently on Joanne Fleming-Plumb Foundations of Competitive Obedience Part 1 - the Basics

My club also has me reading Sheila Booth's "Training in Drive".

I will say you will get the best feel by actually going to a club or trial. There is only so much you can learn without seeing in person.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I think those are very fair rules, accmodates those who don't want to/or cannot participate in the club. People pay their dues, one way or the other!



bocron said:


> At our club, everyone MUST arrive in time for obedience and MUST stay to the end. Probationary members and guests go last (unless it is a young puppy that we are just doing fun stuff with, we do young pups as a group somewhere in the middle). If you need to leave before practice is finished, you pay $5. We have 2 reasons for this, first we TOTALLY feel you learn by watching and the point of the club is the support of the other members, second, we allow people to put their dogs in the crates in our clubhouse, so everyone must help vacuum and disinfect crates before leaving.
> If people show up late, they are told they are welcome to stay and watch but their dog will not be put in the rotation, sorry. If people really want to work and leave, they have the option of paying for private on their schedule. But if they want to be a part of the club, in exchange for the low yearly investment, you invest your time.
> Most of our club members go out to dinner together, or we have dinner at the clubhouse, at least once a week. A great opportunity to go over training and goals.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Thank you!

btw - I'm hoping to attend a Joanne Fleming-Plumb seminar soon!

..and yes I've watched some clubs in action. 

....I'm one who actually enjoys watching other people work their dogs!!

I was the same way with horses. I would scribe at Dressage shows and it really helped me to learn...



BR870 said:


> I can't give you any specific videos, but I can give you the video/trainer list I was given to look for...
> 
> Joanne Fleming-Plumb
> Gottfried Dildei
> Ivan Balabanov
> Michael Ellis
> Bernhard Flinks
> 
> Those are the ones I am going through right now. I am currently on Joanne Fleming-Plumb Foundations of Competitive Obedience Part 1 - the Basics
> 
> My club also has me reading Sheila Booth's "Training in Drive".
> 
> I will say you will get the best feel by actually going to a club or trial. There is only so much you can learn without seeing in person.


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## bocron

Liesje said:


> Now I'm probably getting a bit off topic but for those still reading.... is requiring a dog to be crated in a vehicle and acceptable rule?


Absolutely! We had a similar situation to the one you describe just a few weeks ago. A new person called, asked questions, etc. I told them when to come and told them they would be required to have the dog crated, not out on leash and not loose in their car. I spent 10 minutes explaining how dogs can trash the car, we had one member get back to their car and had no seatbelts or headrests left (this was many years ago, but still), we have had dogs escape and charge the field and the helper had his back to the oncoming dog with a dog at the hold and bark and he didn't hear us yelling until the last second! If there are 2 dogs in the car that would be an absolute no-no. Anyway, after I spent all that time explaining very nicely how I was concerned for her dog, her car and most of all my members and helpers, she still showed up with the dog loose in car. We nicely offered to let her use one of our clubhouse crates, she tried but the dog absolutely panicked at the thought. If she would have just been upfront that the dog wasn't crate trained we would have advised her to come without the dog for a time or two and helped her with crate training issues to work on at home. Needless to say she was peeved when we told her she would have to leave and come back without the dog another time. We haven't heard back from her, of course.


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## Gwenhwyfair

As to your last question, absolutely would not and has not discouraged me. Just by default (for safety and convenience) I have always brought my crate with me to training.




Liesje said:


> Now I'm probably getting a bit off topic but for those still reading.... is requiring a dog to be crated in a vehicle and acceptable rule? We have this rule, mainly for the dog's own safety, and had someone leave in a huff because of it. They had two dogs loose in her car and it was like 95 degrees and humid so with the windows at a level that prevents them from escaping we did not feel that was safe given the heat, plus we just don't like dogs loose in vehicles especially two at once. Several members offered to put the dogs in their extra crates or dog trailer and this person looked like we were asking her to send her dogs to a concrete jail cell for the remainder of their lives. Not to mention I've seen this person at other events and have seen the dogs escape. Don't most clubs have rules about how dogs are confined for training? And, to those possible-prospective-Schutzhunders out there, would this rule discourage you from coming?


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'd like to share some thoughts on the topic in general, even though I'm a very new newbie to schutzhund a lot of what is being dealt with here is human pyschology. I actually deal with this a lot in my day to day business.

I put up with a lot because I'm being paid to do so but there are times where I have to just say no to some people because they can't cope with some basic rules.

I've learned to not get 'invested' in people I don't know very well and then I'm not disappointed.

The end result is over time I've built up a wonderful client base that I really click with and for the most part...it's all good.

O.k. that's my .02 for the day. 

btw- Wayne, thank you for starting this thread. Even though I've managed to avoid a lot of the pitfalls of newbies mentioned here (only because I'm an animal nerd, horse lover and dog nut....  ) this thread has helped me understand why some of the clubs have the rules they have.


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## Stella's Mom

Gwenhwyfair said:


> As to your last question, absolutely would not and has not discouraged me. Just by default (for safety and convenience) I have always brought my crate with me to training.



Our club has the same rule. Dogs are to be crated and in the car until it is their time on the field for all disciplines.


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## GSDElsa

Liesje said:


> Now I'm probably getting a bit off topic but for those still reading.... is requiring a dog to be crated in a vehicle and acceptable rule? We have this rule, mainly for the dog's own safety, and had someone leave in a huff because of it. They had two dogs loose in her car and it was like 95 degrees and humid so with the windows at a level that prevents them from escaping we did not feel that was safe given the heat, plus we just don't like dogs loose in vehicles especially two at once. Several members offered to put the dogs in their extra crates or dog trailer and this person looked like we were asking her to send her dogs to a concrete jail cell for the remainder of their lives. Not to mention I've seen this person at other events and have seen the dogs escape. Don't most clubs have rules about how dogs are confined for training? And, to those possible-prospective-Schutzhunders out there, would this rule discourage you from coming?


Absolutley! And my TD won't allow excessive barking, either. Bark collar or go home.


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## pokey

W.Oliver said:


> ...the comers and goers *waste time and resources*, and it just gets old....


Is it really such a waste? I would respectfully implore you to reconsider this statement. Here are some reasons why "casual" schutzhunders or people who may have quit the sport, can still be important:

1. Maybe a person can't get good enough OB on their dog for a BH, and quits; but maybe the OB is good enough to recall their dog when it runs out into the street… saving its life.

2. Maybe a person isn't dedicated enough to get to IPO 1, but they learned enough about dogs to keep their friend from getting a puppy from a BYB.

3. Maybe a person discovers a genetic temperament problem with their dog. They get frustrated and quit, because they don't have what it takes to struggle through training a dog with an issue. BUT they let their breeder know, and the breeder is able to take this into account when breeding future litters.

4. Maybe a person decides the sport isn't for them, but they know enough about it to direct their cousin to the club. This cousin ends up going on to be a national-level helper.

5. Maybe a person just fades away after 3 weeks, but he has access to 20 acres of hayfields that he allows the club to use for tracking.

6. Maybe a person doesn't have the skill or tenacity to stick with the sport, but he learns enough about handling dogs safely, that he is able to prevent his dog from biting a child.

…etc

The sport isn't JUST and end in-and-of-itself. Always remember that.


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## holland

Good post-good points


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## stealthq

Another thought re: *wasting time and resources*:

My experience has been that I learned the most when teaching someone else. I'm not speaking about schutzhund specifically, but as a general rule. Sometimes I did not realize that in teaching another I had learned something myself until much later. Perhaps you and your club are gaining more than you think. If nothing else, you are exercising perseverance


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## holland

For me watching new people brings back memories -some happy-some not-its kinda nice watching people start with their puppies


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## KJenkins

pokey said:


> Is it really such a waste? I would respectfully implore you to reconsider this statement. Here are some reasons why "casual" schutzhunders or people who may have quit the sport, can still be important:
> 
> 1. Maybe a person can't get good enough OB on their dog for a BH, and quits; but maybe the OB is good enough to recall their dog when it runs out into the street… saving its life.
> 
> 2. Maybe a person isn't dedicated enough to get to IPO 1, but they learned enough about dogs to keep their friend from getting a puppy from a BYB.
> 
> 3. Maybe a person discovers a genetic temperament problem with their dog. They get frustrated and quit, because they don't have what it takes to struggle through training a dog with an issue. BUT they let their breeder know, and the breeder is able to take this into account when breeding future litters.
> 
> 4. Maybe a person decides the sport isn't for them, but they know enough about it to direct their cousin to the club. This cousin ends up going on to be a national-level helper.
> 
> 5. Maybe a person just fades away after 3 weeks, but he has access to 20 acres of hayfields that he allows the club to use for tracking.
> 
> 6. Maybe a person doesn't have the skill or tenacity to stick with the sport, but he learns enough about handling dogs safely, that he is able to prevent his dog from biting a child.
> 
> …etc
> 
> The sport isn't JUST and end in-and-of-itself. Always remember that.


7. And just maybe they are lazy and talk crap and bark at the moon. 

Sorry I'm about to the point that it's just wasting time and resources. Way too many maybe's for me. If people are sincere and really want help I'll offer whatever I can but if they are more worried about being social butterflies the local PetSmart can take care of their needs.


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## GatorDog

All dogs at my club are required to be crated-not loose in the car. You have the option of putting a crate up outside the car, close by, to seek out some shade if it's really hot. And if they are excessive barkers, we ask that you park far enough away so that the barker isn't posing an immediate distraction to those working.

No dogs are allowed to stand on the sidelines and watch unless they have specifically spoken to the handler who will be working the dog under that distraction, and the club officers. Everyone trains in the order of seniority/arrival. Guests are asked to observe the members, and train afterwards.

Anyone who opposes those rules are asked to politely, leave


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## Stella's Mom

KJenkins said:


> 7. And just maybe they are lazy and talk crap and bark at the moon.
> 
> Sorry I'm about to the point that it's just wasting time and resources. Way too many maybe's for me. If people are sincere and really want help I'll offer whatever I can but if they are more worried about being social butterflies the local PetSmart can take care of their needs.



Our club actually is very social. Our VP thinks chats are very important and we all sit and discuss what's generally going on with the dogs etc. Our club moves very slowly and that works well for me as a beginner, but maybe it would be frustrating for someone more advanced. I have 2 levels of basic and intermediate "Petsmart" obedience behind me, so I am not really there t learn to put my dog in a Platz, but more to understand the nature of the sport, the dogs and how everything works together. I am looking forward to learning more of the other commands and have been trying to get my dog to speak on command at home and we work on heeling each time I walk my dog.


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## Smithie86

Liesje said:


> Do you let the visitors go first? Just curious how others handle it. We've always done club dogs first, with priority to those that are getting ready to trial (or during obedience we might pair off like a mock trial, so my friend and I always go back and forth since our dogs are the same level). Visitors go last. This way they don't really have the option to get their dogs worked and leave. If they have a ton of questions, they can take as much time as they need at the end. It also ensures the club dogs and people that have put in their time get the helperwork they need on a fresh helper, since we usually only have one helper.


I forgot to answer this... sorry...

You can determine fairly quickly some people that are just there to see what you are doing and bounce from trainer to trainer.

Depends on the age of the dog(s) and how serious. We try to fit them in the appropriate group and time during training. The group supposrts this - they were new once.

We spend time to talk with them to find out what they are looking for, commitment to the training and other commitments - be realistic. Most people work at a full time job, plus family (or at least spouse, sig. other).


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