# Pedigree history for future pups



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

I found VHM in Shasta, redding area
These are the pedigrees...kind of new to the foums, anyone know where I post pedigrees? Putting it here for now

They are expecting a litter soon from them. Some recommendations have led me to this. 
Just looking for insights

Dakota Vom Haus Middleton

Aladin vom Bergmannsland

I dont understand any of all of it to be honest.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thanks barcargo 

I thought I would export my answer to this from the CTHills thread to get a discussion going on these pedigrees
QUOTE
not quite sure if you are saying that Dakota and Aladin are being bred together or not .

Dakota - that pedigree in itself is tricky. Asko Lutter AND Crok Erlenbusch on the sire's side.
Both of these dogs could be explosive when pressured , handler, and dog aggression, passed on to progeny,
some of which were nervy.

You have to know how to pair Asko and Crok very carefully to lines that are rock solid , slow to ignite .

I don't think WGSL 's are a good combination -- adding more excitability . Nerves can't carry the aggression.

Aladin doesn't have anything to offer this female for breeding .

This is sort of what happens when people think you take a working line and you take a show line and you improve structure and bring in work .

You must know the entire Families that flow through the sire and the dam .

Could you open a new thread instead of continuing on the Covy Tucker Hill thread. You might bring in more people to give you ideas on your quest for your future pup.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
that is why it is a good idea for you to post pedigrees .
with show lines it doesn't matter as much because there is not a lot of variation in the lines - 

that is not so much the case with working lines -- because they are bred with a view to the jobs they will be doing


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Carmen said it much more nicely than what I was thinking!!!!


Whoever has the female probably is not an experienced breeder.......her pedigree does not work well - and for someone knowledgeable there is really no where to go - not a female to attract working line people or show line people - more a breeding that someone is going to promote based on the fact that grandparents are imports....with no knowledge of the dogs or the qualities that are possible.


Frankly - in California, the shelters and rescues are overburdened by good looking GSDs - breeding like this is a big reason for that....it makes me sad - so many pups bred just to make people money without knowledge or regard for the life of the dog

Lee


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> Frankly - in California, the shelters and rescues are overburdened by good looking GSDs - breeding like this is a big reason for that....it makes me sad - so many pups bred just to make people money without knowledge or regard for the life of the dog
> 
> Lee


Many of those dogs you see look nice but are from BYB and sold to anyone with cash. There is also a push in urban and trendy areas to use PO training which doesn't work with drivey German Shepherds. So you see careless breeding and selling, politically correct training and inexperienced owners afraid to take a firm hand with a dog. It's a recipe for creating shelter dogs. It's why most GSD rescue groups need a lot of fosters and have behavior trainers on speed dial.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> Many of those dogs you see look nice but are from BYB and sold to anyone with cash. There is also a push in urban and trendy areas to use PO training which doesn't work with drivey German Shepherds. So you see careless breeding and selling, politically correct training and inexperienced owners afraid to take a firm hand with a dog. It's a recipe for creating shelter dogs. It's why most GSD rescue groups need a lot of fosters and have behavior trainers on speed dial.




Ahhhh - exactly what I said - breeding for money wiht no knowledge....sad for the dogs produced who are high risk for temperament problems and subsequent disposal...


Lee


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

What did you guys all look at to determine that?
I just saw letters haha


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Many of those dogs you see look nice but are from BYB and sold to anyone with cash. There is also a push in urban and trendy areas to use PO training which doesn't work with drivey German Shepherds. So you see careless breeding and selling, politically correct training and inexperienced owners afraid to take a firm hand with a dog. It's a recipe for creating shelter dogs. It's why most GSD rescue groups need a lot of fosters and have behavior trainers on speed dial.


Too much of it is all in how you raise and train them being pushed by shelters and many rescues as well completely discounting genetics. That train of thought may hold more true for highly skilled trainers, but not for the average dog owner, especially with dogs who are supposed to have a modicum of aggression.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Too much of it is all in how you raise and train them being pushed by shelters and many rescues as well completely discounting genetics. That train of thought may hold more true for highly skilled trainers, but not for the average dog owner, especially with dogs who are supposed to have a modicum of aggression.


This is so true! If I had a dollar for every time I heard *It's all in how they're raised!* . . .

It's mostly how their DNA came together. Proper handling is important, but solid nerves are solid nerves. You can't fix genetics. The dog's genes set the outer limits of what he's going to be able to do


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Too much of it is all in how you raise and train them being pushed by shelters and many rescues as well completely discounting genetics. That train of thought may hold more true for highly skilled trainers, but not for the average dog owner, especially with dogs who are supposed to have a modicum of aggression.


Which is how a family I know ended up with a dog that think is a German Shepherd mix, which they can't take anywhere and can't handle. The dog has GSD ears and nose and size, beagle coloring, and I swear a pittbull face. I would love to see genetics on that dog. I don't think it has any German Shepherd in it at all.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Which is how a family I know ended up with a dog that think is a German Shepherd mix, which they can't take anywhere and can't handle. The dog has GSD ears and nose and size, beagle coloring, and I swear a pittbull face. I would love to see genetics on that dog. I don't think it has any German Shepherd in it at all.


Yea, that myth has to be PTS. It is responsible for way too many shelter dogs.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yea, that myth has to be PTS. It is responsible for way too many shelter dogs.


What? That all dogs can be rehabilitated through PO training or that a pittbull mix is a German Shepherd?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> What? That all dogs can be rehabilitated through PO training or that a pittbull mix is a German Shepherd?


It is all in how you raise and train them. Shelters should not tell people that a Pit or GSD mix can be raised and trained to have Golden Retriever temperaments. When their deceit backfires and the DNA rears its head, it is back to the kill shelter.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Barcagp said:


> What did you guys all look at to determine that?
> I just saw letters haha


If you do a search on the dogs in the pedigree, you can find info on them. Dig deep, look at videos if there are any. The dogs like Crok have a few discussions on them on some forums/webboards.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Barcagp said:


> What did you guys all look at to determine that?
> I just saw letters haha



Some of us here study pedigrees - know what dogs - especially those who were used for breeding alot - bring what characteristics.....we know the differences between show and working lines - we know the type of dogs being sold and promoted by back yard breeders....

Just like anything else, people who are "into" something have a fundamental understanding of it...pedigrees and breeding for example


Lee


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

So mixing lines like those posted in the op you'll most likely end up with a wide awry of temperaments and drives?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nigel said:


> So mixing lines like those posted in the op you'll most likely end up with a wide awry of temperaments and drives?


It is more than the "lines" which are generally expressed in simplified terms of show and working . 

It is the mixing of FAMILIES . So even within the working "lines" there are families that are "married" which will bring you problem children --- bad combinations. sometimes too much of a good thing , and sometimes just bad chemistry.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There is science to breeding and combining families and lines etc. and the knowledge/ experience which is always fascinating to see. Which dogs stand out or what's dogs in showlines asl/ wgsl and working lines have strong nerves that pass that down and or dogs with weak nerves to stay away from.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Which is how a family I know ended up with a dog that think is a German Shepherd mix, which they can't take anywhere and can't handle. The dog has GSD ears and nose and size, beagle coloring, and I swear a pittbull face. I would love to see genetics on that dog. I don't think it has any German Shepherd in it at all.


This. I've seen a few mixes like this. A friend has one. Dog can't handle any pressure or excitement.


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

Can anyone tell me anything on this pedigree. 
I spoke to them today and I will be going and meeting the parents today.
I was able to find the dad on pedigree search but not the mom. She told me they were both IPO3 certified.

They are from witmer-tyson Imports 

Ace vom Haus Tyson

Ill be seeing them tonight.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

impossible to make any comments until the female's pedigree is known.

it's all in the combination


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

impossible to make any comments until the female's pedigree is known.

it's all in the combination

so speaking of combinations let's see some Ace haus
Tyson progeny .

there is one combination (thieshof) which couples Ace to WGSL female
-- (soft , long pasterns coming through from the female) 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germani_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2038773-giza-vom-haus-tyson 

Carmen aus dem Tal

Ace to a show line Huracaan vom Theishof

Envy aus dem Tal


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Barcagp said:


> Can anyone tell me anything on this pedigree.
> I spoke to them today and I will be going and meeting the parents today.
> I was able to find the dad on pedigree search but not the mom. She told me they were both IPO3 certified.
> 
> ...



the male has a fairly heavy duty pedigree......


as Carmen says - not much else to say without the female combined....

I know some "busy-ness" - ie unable to settle down and relax, and some serious serious dogs coming out of the top of the pedigree.....but what will come through???? 

hard to say without seeing the whole thing....

See how this dog lives? In a kennel wiht exercise periods? How is he in a house???? THAT would be most important!!!! With people? Friendly and open??


Lee


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

This is the female:
Jola*Orrylordblack


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> This is the female:
> Jola*Orrylordblack


Thanks Steve. 

Sent from my SM-G9350 using Tapatalk


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Holy HotDOG Batman!!!!!!!!!!!!


Pups could be great or OMG scary.......


I would say for sport - for someone who knows what they are doing could be very challenging!!!!!!!!!!! For a beginner???????????? Not balanced enough to be easy to live with and train.....

JMO.....and depends if parents are going to produce their genetics.....





Lee


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> This. I've seen a few mixes like this. A friend has one. Dog can't handle any pressure or excitement.


To the OP-please listen to what Carmen and Lee are telling you.

I live with an apparently pure bred GSD who was bred solely to produce money. She is a nightmare to live with, has so much ball/prey drive that she vibrates and moans, falls apart completely under ANY stress or pressure and can't seem to focus on even simple things for more then a few seconds.
Those weak nerves translate in her case to a dog that will bite at any thing or anyone. 

To be fair, Shadow is a worst case dog. However she is a great example of exactly what can happen when pedigrees and lines are mixed indiscriminately, without knowledge or thought. Find a breeder who knows the dogs, the lines and the potential. Or save the cash take a deep breath and pull one from the pound and hope for the best.


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Holy HotDOG Batman!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Pups could be great or OMG scary.......
> ...


Ya the breeder has been highly recommended by so many other breeders. But I stayed away for a while from them because they work so much with police dogs. 
She told me to come meet the dad today and that she thinks I'll love him and that's he's a total loveable goofball. She has 2 females left. 
However after speaking to the breeder she said she thinks that a puppy from this litter will have a solid temperament as long as we give it structure. 
Again I stayed away from asking them about litter because of how intense the dogs look but even wgsl breeders told me to talk to Randy and that she is one of the best in the country. 

Sent from my SM-G9350 using Tapatalk


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> To the OP-please listen to what Carmen and Lee are telling you.
> 
> I live with an apparently pure bred GSD who was bred solely to produce money. She is a nightmare to live with, has so much ball/prey drive that she vibrates and moans, falls apart completely under ANY stress or pressure and can't seem to focus on even simple things for more then a few seconds.
> Those weak nerves translate in her case to a dog that will bite at any thing or anyone.
> ...


Was she a working line or show line? 

Sent from my SM-G9350 using Tapatalk


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Meet both parents before ruling out a puppy from that litter. If it's a repeat breeding, ask if you can talk to owners with dogs from the previous litter. I know our breeder produces both working dogs and pets from the same litter. But she usually cools the drive down with her pairings. If both parents are high drive, it's more likely to produce drivey dogs.


----------



## Ripley2016 (Mar 6, 2016)

Barcagp said:


> I found VHM in Shasta, redding area
> These are the pedigrees...kind of new to the foums, anyone know where I post pedigrees? Putting it here for now
> 
> They are expecting a litter soon from them. Some recommendations have led me to this.
> ...



I almost got a puppy from the first Dakota/Aladin litter, but there were no females. She ended up with two males. I bet if you ask her, she can put you in touch with the two people who ended up with the males. I was just in touch with her to set up a puppy playdate with my pup and one of the Uma/Chaos pups from the last litter. She connected me with two owners who happily "friended" me so we could get our pups together to socialize.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

agree with Lee ms "wolfstraum" 100 % and more !

pedigree that is easier to view Jola Orrylordblack ? working-dog

this female has tons of prey drive == I'd like to see her relate to the PERSON without a ball 
close your eyes and just listen to the dog 






clearly has lots of food drive --- conditioned training for sport performance --- manipulation of behaviours ,
which do not give any indication of dogs biddability , or decision making ability.






this litter this combination is not for you --- a competitive sport person - sure thing 

go ahead and look and learn -- don't buy -- you have way too much to learn .

from a person who had a sickle - hocked Covy Tucker Hill dog in sites in the beginning ,
then some terrible "crossing of the lines" combination , then on track with Ajay or Donau - Ries, 
and now to this fairly extreme sport type .

You're not ready for this type because your partner wants to go through the fuzzy wuzzy baby-nurture phase - so I take that to be a cuddly dog == you expect some warmth from the dog , some mutual appreciation -- not a goals tool .

keep throwing out those pedigrees to the forum so that you can learn 

what was the pedigree of Ajay's 4 month old


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

carmspack said:


> agree with Lee ms "wolfstraum" 100 % and more !
> 
> pedigree that is easier to view Jola Orrylordblack ? working-dog
> 
> ...


haha ya Ill agree to that. I spoke to Randy and she was great and very friendly and told me to come to her house and meet them. I work in redwood city so its where they are so I figured it be easy to go meet them.

This is the showline male I may go see on Sunday. Very nice people to talk to and recommended by a few members as well

Roky Kabi

Yosemite Vom Lundborg-Land


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Barcagp said:


> haha ya Ill agree to that. I spoke to Randy and she was great and very friendly and told me to come to her house and meet them. I work in redwood city so its where they are so I figured it be easy to go meet them.
> 
> This is the showline male I may go see on Sunday. Very nice people to talk to and recommended by a few members as well
> 
> ...


You are doing the right thing. Meet as many breeders as you can and their breeding dogs. I think it's good to look at high drive breedings if you know what you are looking at for comparisons. I have owned high drive dogs, which I didn't want this time, so I already knew what to look for. You might find a good breeder and breeding when you don't expect to. A good breeder will not sell the wrong type dog to a prospective buyer, but a sloppy one might, so ask a lot of questions and meet the dogs.


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

carmspack said:


> agree with Lee ms "wolfstraum" 100 % and more !
> 
> pedigree that is easier to view Jola Orrylordblack ? working-dog
> 
> ...


Jay's 4 month old was from his dog:
Ucon vom Patiala

I didn't get to get more info on the mom since I told him I'd wait.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ucon

Ucon vom Patiala
that's a nice dog 





German Shepherd Puppies for Sale - Adlerhimmel German Shepherds For Sale
https://www.facebook.com/vompatiala/posts/10208376122577018

are they within visiting range?


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Ucon
> 
> Ucon vom Patiala
> that's a nice dog
> ...


They are in Redding, I can make a sunday work to get up there..im in san jose


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you should go and have a look.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

carmspack said:


> Ucon
> 
> Ucon vom Patiala
> that's a nice dog
> ...


From that facebook page. Kinda interesting, I don't know if it matters:



> Diksy is an excellent dog, healthy, extremely athletic, clear in the head, good nerves, stable, and naturally strong. Her father, grandfather and a number of other dogs in her pedigree were on the Ukrainian team at WUSV. She has good hips and elbows and got IPO1 at less than 2 years of age. She is inbred on Boban van't Heukske


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Barcagp said:


> Can anyone tell me anything on this pedigree.
> I spoke to them today and I will be going and meeting the parents today.
> I was able to find the dad on pedigree search but not the mom. She told me they were both IPO3 certified.
> 
> ...


I've met Ace. He's sound, smart, strong, healthy, hard working and well trained. Don't know anything about the dam. Both are definitely working dogs. Randy breeds working dogs. Might not be the right fit for you?


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Ucon is an excellent dog. I plan on breeding a female to him either this winter or spring.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe ask Randy when you go to see Ace if she has any plans to breed to Ucon?


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Maybe ask Randy when you go to see Ace if she has any plans to breed to Ucon?


I will ask. Ucon is the sire of a litter due in October as well. I just found out from a Trainer in San Jose 



Sent from my SM-G9350 using Tapatalk


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Maybe ask Randy when you go to see Ace if she has any plans to breed to Ucon?


I wouldn't think so , they are rather different types of dogs 
Ajay and Randy's programmes are different , types, goals, training.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Ucon is an excellent dog. I plan on breeding a female to him either this winter or spring.


wow - that would be very interesting .

there are some very strong , valuable female lines in this pedigree --n


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

I went to go see the pups today. I did not buy. Just asked lots of questions. Randy stands behind her dogs and is confident in then. She is a very nice person and willing to answer all your questions or concerns. We were able to play with all of them hold them. She said if we were still 
interested we can meet Ace on Sunday. He is doing some work on. Sunday and she invited me to go. He was away at training for the day. 
I will continue looking but it was great getting out and asking her about her dogs and why she thought the dogs had enough range to also be family dogs as long as there was structure and training. 
I'll be calling more places tomorrow and taking our wgsl to a trainer recommended to me here and will also ask him lots of questions. He works alot with Ajay and knows Ace and Ucon. 

Is there anything I could've asked about Jola? Aside from how sociable she was with people 

Sent from my SM-G9350 using Tapatalk


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

She has a litter coming up with Ace and Etazi, I found this on her pedigree : http://en.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/2709156/Etazi-vom-Haus-Tyson
Was wondering if maybe Etazi was a better fit for us than Jola. 

Sent from my SM-G9350 using Tapatalk


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Barcagp said:


> She has a litter coming up with Ace and Etazi, I found this on her pedigree : Etazi vom Haus Tyson ? working-dog
> Was wondering if maybe Etazi was a better fit for us than Jola.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G9350 using Tapatalk


Etazi's sire, Bruno :thumbup:


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

ausdland said:


> Etazi's sire, Bruno :thumbup:


I wasn't able to see it on the site its on...is she west German?


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Barcagp said:


> I wasn't able to see it on the site its on...is she west German?


Who, Etazi's dam-Letty? I think Randy owns or did own Letty? I don't know. Just commenting on Bruno. My trainer and a couple IPO ppl I've met say Bruno is the best gsd in California. 
West German? I don't know what that is. Germany has been unified since 1989.
I'll stop commenting as I don't want to create confusion and I'm no expert. Again, I'd trust Randy Tyson, Chris Clay or Ajay Singh for a sound, healthy gsd.


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

So an update fwiw I have a Pup rom Ace Vom Haus Tyson and jola orrylordblack
And she has been a complete joy. 
Her focus and just her love my wife and I has been amazing to watch. A great listener easy to train and just picking up commands for a ball or food. 
She's can heel stay and release on commands. Gone golfing with me a couple of times, shops with us and could care less about other dogs and makes eye contact when asked to. 
Her downsides right now: her anxiousness at times to greet people who come over or play with guests. When put on a stay she stays but cries still that she wants to release and say hi. She'll do laps around the house when excited. 
I would say that's her quirk and hoping she grows out of it. 
Aside from that she can already be trusted off leash to heel with me but has been amazing how much she looks to please us and how much sh hates the word NO and how she'll do anything to not hear that word. 
Will update if she continues to grow out of her crazy excitement to meet people at times


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Welllllll.......

You're not getting off that easy!

Where are some pics of this little vixen! :wink2:

Moms


----------



## Barcagp (Jan 28, 2014)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Welllllll.......
> 
> You're not getting off that easy!
> 
> ...











Car shopping with me


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Ohhhhhh...... :wub: she's lovely Barcagp!

Congratulations!

Moms


----------

