# Warning for dog owners if police come to the door



## wolfy dog

Federal Court Rules Police Can Shoot Moving or Barking Dogs in Home

of course the picture shows Pits but it can happen to your 13 year old retriever who comes to the door wagging.


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## Bramble

That is scary. I know both of mine would bark at anyone entering my house.


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## voodoolamb

This has always been a fear of mine. My aunt's dog was shot while it was tethered in her front yard by a police officer who was there to serve a warrant to my cousin who hadn't lived at that address in years. 

Big friendly black lab mix. Goofy dog that didn't have an aggressive bone in his body. This was years ago back in the late 80s.

Then there was the man in SLC who's weimerianer was shot by an officer who entered the fenced back yard searching for a missing child not so long ago. 

I mean I'm sure it's such a small risk... but still scary.

My first inclination is to support the men and women who serve and protect... but I can't say that recent year's political atmosphere and incidents dont make me question some things. This just adds to it.

*sigh*

Too much to think about. Don't need to stress and worry about it right now.


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## llombardo

I was just going to post this. It's very concerning. Police go to the wrong homes often. This is one law I don't agree with, not even a little bit. It needs to be over turned.


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## wolfy dog

The only choice we have is to crate the dogs when we are gone. I think that GSDs are at great risk of being shot.


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## lalabug

“The standard we set out today is that a police officer’s use of deadly force against a dog while executing a search warrant to search a home for illegal drug activity is reasonable under the Fourth Amendment when … the dog poses an imminent threat to the officer’s safety.”
So is it only applicable on search warrants for illegal drugs or are they saying anytime, any police officer, any reason?


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## Deb

wolfy dog said:


> The only choice we have is to crate the dogs when we are gone. I think that GSDs are at great risk of being shot.


But it can happen when you're home. Years ago my daughter ran up and told me the front yard was full of police men like in a movie. It was about nine at night and she was correct. They had cars all over my yard, one blocking the gate entering my property with the front doors open with police behind them, guns drawn. A knock at the door. The officer asks me where he is. I'm totally lost. I finally get it out of them that they're there for a domestic disturbance with shots fired. Ah, not here, just me and my young son and young daughter. I see two deputies heading for the backyard where my Doberman was. I had put her out to potty just before this all happened. I tell the officer my Dobe is back there and if they hurt her there'll be heck to pay. He asks if my dog bites and I told him no but she will grip and hold. One deputy comes running back to the front and then the second one does the same, both saying there's something huge with yellow eyes back there. She never barked or growled at them, just stood in front of them and from what the deputies continued to tell us is that she lowered her head as she walked up to them. This was unusual behavior as she usually gripped and held anyone putting an arm just over my fence. But it could have been worse, I was lucky. So even being home it can still happen. I finally convinced them while they were arguing with me someone somewhere else was in real trouble. They came back the next morning with the same thing but I convinced them to call dispatch and verify I was the same wrong address as the night before.


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## Shooter

I don't know if many of you folks know but part of the reason for my name here and twitter @*Shooter*sims is from the greatest line ever in one of my favorite movies of all time.

*****************************************************************************
The movie is Shooter
The line is:
Bob Lee Swagger: I don't think you understand, these boys killed my dog.

******************************************************************************

Somebody kills my dog they will have a fight on their hands. Cop or thug, I don't care.


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## Julian G

I have a lot of respect for cops but I know for a fact many of them are bonehead morons who got cut from their high school football teams.


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## kshadow

They should be allowed to shoot a tranquilizer only. This law might change when they accidently shoot a child or someone!
I can understand for their safety but don't have to KILL the dog!


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## scarfish

kshadow said:


> They should be allowed to shoot a tranquilizer only. This law might change when they accidently shoot a child or someone!
> I can understand for their safety but don't have to KILL the dog!


tranquilizers take at least a few minutes to work. that's not going to stop a charging dog.


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## Kazel

I can see if they are serving a warrant but otherwise if they are on *private property* I do not think they should be able to. Public property where the dog is actively running at them and is aggressive sure. Dogs can be dangerous and they should be able to defend themselves but they should be respectful of dogs that are rightfully on their owners property.

Basically it's a mess and hopefully you are dealing with responsible cops who understand that dogs can bark and still be friendly. I'm lucky in that we are friends with our many of our law enforcement(small town) and they know our mastiff Conan will bark and sounds threatening but he is actually very friendly.


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## Nurse Bishop

As a nurse who has worked in the ICU and ER of a Level Trauma Center, I support the police and the life saving work they do. I am not a fan of pit bulls and I will mace with bear spray any dog or dogs that threaten myself or my dog. If a dog is really well trained they will obey the Down when the good guys arrive or whenever they are told to Down. When my GSD senses something wrong, she jumps up completely off the floor barking ferociously. I can take her by the collar and hold her back, or I can send her out into the dark to find out what it is. And there is a tiny likely hood she will be shot by the police. My judgement, my responsibility. German Shepherds can also do a lot of damage. In the statistics I have seen, in the same same span of several years, GSDs, the second most popular breed in the United States, have killed twenty two people. But pit bulls and pit types, 6.6% of the dog population, have killed 66 people. Mauled them to death. 
Check it out http://www.dogsbite.org/ Many people become irrational about their dogs. Lets be serious about 
the potential damage our dogs can do and be responsible for theirs and other's safety .


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## Slamdunc

Smh.


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## Slamdunc

Julian G said:


> I have a lot of respect for cops but I know for a fact many of them are bonehead morons who got cut from their high school football teams.



:roll eyes:

It's posts like this and a few others on this thread that I really enjoy.


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## llombardo

wolfy dog said:


> The only choice we have is to crate the dogs when we are gone. I think that GSDs are at great risk of being shot.


I don't think it matters if your home of not. If they come to the wrong house and your home they should give you the chance to put the dogs up, but that doesn't happen because they don't know they are at the wrong house at that point.


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## MineAreWorkingline

This happened on private property yesterday.

Are some people saying that the officer was wrong?

Officer shoots, kills pit bull

Stuff like this happens all the time.


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## Slamdunc

Do people actually read and understand the court ruling before making comments? Or is this just one of those topics where the Police are never right, the dog owner is never wrong with out knowing any of the facts? 

I'm sorry, but this is a very rare event, far more (thousands) dogs are killed running loose and hit by cars, hunters and irresponsible owners every day than by the Police serving a narcotics search warrant. Far more dogs are killed by vindictive neighbors, one who actually breeds GSD's bought chickens to have in her yard so when the neighbors dogs came over she could kill them. Guess what, the dogs came in her yard and she shot them. When the Police arrived she said she was in her right to kill the neighbor's dogs because she had chickens.......Good grief. This is a true story and bragged about by a WGSL / Czech SL breeder / broker that some of you will know or recognize. 

For the internet bravado types, if your dogs are loose and aggressively charge a Police Officer I'd really like to see how you handle the situation yourself as you claim you will.......... :roll eyes:


Be a responsible dog owner, keep your dog contained and under control like you should and you will not have any problems. Don't let your dogs run loose and God forbid, if you see the police chasing a felon through yards in your neighborhood don't put your dogs out. Moronic people actually do that, what do they think their dog is going to do, catch the bad guy for us??? Not likely. 

One last thing, wrong addresses on search warrants are extremely rare, although it has happened. If the Police are at a house serving a narcotics search warrant 999 times out of a 1000 they are at the right address. My advice is don't sell dope, and if you do, don't release your dogs at the Police. That has happened to me and other K-9 handlers. 

I'm done with my rant and this thread, hopefully.

smh


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## Thecowboysgirl

Ok, number one, I am dumb, what does smh mean?

Two...every cop I have ever met has been great about dog/dog (s). Due to my troubled stepdaughter I have had the unfortunate need to have the sherriff's deputies and state troopers in my house at least 5 times. We always put thr dogs up before they came. I always told them there were German Shepherds in the house, they were put away, but fi by some mistake they got out somehow that they were friendly and stable dogs who might bark but would never just haul off and a bite someone and to please just give me a chance to grab them. (This is me being excessively worried because the dogs were locked in a bedroom but still.

I gave that speech in triplicate one night when I had to go get something from the bedroom to show the police, thats where the dogs were. They aren't wild and wouldn't run by me out the door, but I still said it again, if the dogs get by me and come out they won't do anything. The cops seemed very understanding and ok about this.

I guess it is important to note that every time the cops were in our house it wasn't an adrenalized situation. It was a knock on the door, come on in can I get you a glass of water or cup of coffee kind of thing. 

In the old, old days when I was a barn manager it was my job to meet the police if the alarm went off overnight because I lived on the farm (it was usually the barn cat setting off the alarm). But I always took my GSD with me because I wasn't going anywhere on the farm in the middle of the night with the security alarm going off without him. He was on a leash and under control, they knew me, there was never a problem.

I got a ride home from a nice cop when someone illegally parked and blocked my car in at the train station. He said they couldn't tow him because it was a dirt lot with no drawn spots but there was no hope of me getting my car. He asked if someone could get me back in the mor ing to get it and there was, so he drove me and my GSD home, he liked her and wanted to know all about her and pet her before I left.

I have chatted with several officers when I was out training the young dog, I wouldn't bother them but if they showed interest in him I would chat and see if they wanted to pet him because I wanted to be sure my dog was cool with all the uniforms and stuff, which I told them and they seemed happy I wanted to be sure my dog knew that people in this uniform were good folks.

In summary, I have never known a cop who acted like a bonehead or a jerk....and they have always seemed very understanding and cool with me and my dogs. I always tried to let them know I understood the position they were in and had taken every step I could to make sure I dogs were contained ect. If anything they always seemed interested in my dogs because they were GSDs and I assume most cops have had at least passing contact with them because of their use as k9s.

There were bad people on my old street in FL, but where I live now I think the possibility of police search passing through my property or getting my house by accident nearly impossible.


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## holland

This is a different perspective. Jenna's dog held the police at bay for an hour-and her parents successfully sued the police department afterwards-



Defendant Is Convicted in 'Jenna's Law' Slaying - The New York Times


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## llombardo

At one time I was going to be a police officer, so I hung out with quite a few back in the day. Before that I had one detective that did not like my brother in law tell me that he was going to raid my home because he visited often. I said I have dogs, what about the dogs? His answer was oh well. I lived on pins and needles for a long time--just disgusting. Officers from the same force killed a couple dogs and laughed about it. One was a crazy Rott that probably did attack them, but get this..the first time they shot at her and missed, they made sure they didn't the second time(when they didn't have reason to be there). Then there was a beautiful very friendly boxer that died because of an argument that happened years before between the owner and Officer. It went nowhere in court because the judge believed the officers version. 


Now a days I find that most officers are good with dogs. Midnite just met a couple sheriffs last week. They couldn't help but smile at him and he was so excited to meet them. I've made it a point to introduce my dogs to police officers. Before I bought my house there were a couple murders in the building I used to live in, the police were in and out, came in and took statements with the dogs right there, no issues. Right before I moved an officer from the same squad must have got a call and came to my patio flashing a light, of course the dogs barked. That officer went to the city and tried starting trouble. I already knew what he was going to do because he argued the law with me and I was right, which got him madder. 

So I've had experiences all across the board. I'm thrilled when officers show interest in the dogs but I always keep my guard up because of the negative experiences I gsvd had or witnessed. A lot of the court cases that involve police shooting dogs is because of wrong addresses. It happens way to often and it should never happen. If they are at the wrong house they should be accountable. 

The only time my dogs would be at risk would be if it was s wrong address situation. I am not thrilled about that thought, but I also know it can happen. If I was home I can only hope they would give me the opportunity to contain my dogs, that is all I would want. Let me do that and you can tear my house up even if it's the wrong address, just don't hurt my dogs.


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## LuvShepherds

We had to call police over a possible forced entry when I heard something inside my home. They were there within minutes, probably already in the area. I told them my German Shepherd was in the house and would probably bark at them until I could control my dog. It worked out safely. There was someone there but not a threat as it turned out. The police couldn't have been more helpful. I have interacted with many in that department and there is not a single moron. Amazing. The only stupid person was the one who thought it was a good idea to trespass on a property with a GSD inside.


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## SuperG

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Ok, number one, I am dumb, what does smh mean?
> 
> .


SMH ...I believe means "shaking my head"....

SuperG


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## llombardo

LuvShepherds said:


> We had to call police over a possible forced entry when I heard something inside my home. They were there within minutes, probably already in the area. I told them my German Shepherd was in the house and would probably bark at them until I could control my dog. It worked out safely. There was someone there but not a threat as it turned out. The police couldn't have been more helpful. I have interacted with many in that department and there is not a single moron. Amazing. The only stupid person was the one who thought it was a good idea to trespass on a property with a GSD inside.


Calling the police and expecting them is way different then a surprise visit for no reason. When you call them, you know to put the dogs up and they are coming there to help you. If they aren't called by you then they are most likely there to find a criminal and they will treat you much differently in that scenario.


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## SuperG

I know a few cops and they are decent human beings......


SuperG


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## Slamdunc

smh = Shaking my head


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## Nurse Bishop

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This happened on private property yesterday.
> 
> Are some people saying that the officer was wrong?
> 
> Officer shoots, kills pit bull
> 
> Stuff like this happens all the time.


 The police going into a drug dealer or domestic violence with guns drawn to defend themselves, because this is the highest situation leading to officer death or injury, and some pit bull or other charges them usually it is a pit bull since that is what the criminal element or homeless prefers , and are they sup posed to hold their fire and be bitten by a dog and then shot? No. No officer's life is worth a dog. No human being's life is worth a dog


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## astrovan2487

This is also a fear of mine as it seems to happen often never resulting in any punishment. Most of the time I will side with police in shooting situations as I understand the effects they have on decision making. The average person does not understand just how they will react when in a life/death situation where they have the ability to defend themselves or a duty to defend others. There is no "aim for the leg", "use a tazer" "pepper spray the guy" most of the time, non-lethal means often do not work in stopping a threat. You have to make possibly the biggest decision of your life in a second or so. It's very easy to sit back and say you would have done things differently after the fact.
That being said many of the situations you hear of cops killing dogs are wrong addresses or cops entering uninvolved people's property. I think if it's in the pursuit of a murderer or could possibly save someone's life than maybe it's a bit more understandable going thru backyards without looking for dogs but is it really worth killing someone's dog to catch another person for drugs or stolen property? If it's involving a lesser crime I feel that they should not enter the property with the dog and try to find the owner or try to shoot the dog with a tranquilizer as time is not as important. There should be more training for police in situations with dogs as it seems to be coming up more often.


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## Thecowboysgirl

llombardo said:


> Calling the police and expecting them is way different then a surprise visit for no reason. When you call them, you know to put the dogs up and they are coming there to help you. If they aren't called by you then they are most likely there to find a criminal and they will treat you much differently in that scenario.



Even when I shared a street with scumbag drug dealers I was never mistaken for one...the cops never just showed up for no reason to mess with us.


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## LuvShepherds

llombardo said:


> Calling the police and expecting them is way different then a surprise visit for no reason. When you call them, you know to put the dogs up and they are coming there to help you. If they aren't called by you then they are most likely there to find a criminal and they will treat you much differently in that scenario.


Not always. I came home, opened a door and heard someone talking, except no one was home except me. I went back out and called them unable to get to my dog. They said do not go inside until we get there. So, there I was outside with the police trying to decide where to enter with my dog in the house during a possible break in. They thought there was a criminal inside. I expected one car to roll but they sent the whole 911 team. It was a big deal. I didn't know then, but there had been a rash of breaking with personal injuries and guns involved, so potentially much more dangerous than someone selling drugs. If a burglar shot at an officer, my dog could easily have been hit. The only reason the dog wasn't going after the person is that the area was divided and the dog couldn't get into the other part of the house where the voice was coming from.


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## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This happened on private property yesterday.
> 
> Are some people saying that the officer was wrong?
> 
> Officer shoots, kills pit bull
> 
> Stuff like this happens all the time.


This happened to me kind of. I delivered pizzas for my parents and went to a house that had the Rott that was later killed by the police. The house was on the corner, a two flat. I checked the whole yard for dogs, all clear. I walk up the stairs, go into the hallway where there is a door with glass missing leading upstairs and a door to my right. Before I knew it I see this Rott flying down the stairs at an angle that she could jump through the window at my throat. I had no where to go and I turned the knob of the other door and thankfully it opened. There sat a whole family looking at me as their pizza was upside down because I thought I would block the dog with that. I remember I couldn't breath, because I was so scared. If that door wasn't open that dog would have killed me, no doubt. I never understood how they could order a pizza and then not contain the dog? I also wonder that if I killed the dog, would I be in trouble for that?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Nurse Bishop said:


> The police going into a drug dealer or domestic violence with guns drawn to defend themselves, because this is the highest situation leading to officer death or injury, and some pit bull or other charges them usually it is a pit bull since that is what the criminal element or homeless prefers , and are they sup posed to hold their fire and be bitten by a dog and then shot? No. No officer's life is worth a dog. No human being's life is worth a dog


Some dog bite's can be crippling. It can also come at great cost to taxpayers when an officer is put on temporary or permanent disability. Some people are okay with that as long as a dog is not harmed, others prioritize people.


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## llombardo

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Even when I shared a street with scumbag drug dealers I was never mistaken for one...the cops never just showed up for no reason to mess with us.


Not where I came from...LOL

Oh the stories:smile2:


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> This happened to me kind of. I delivered pizzas for my parents and went to a house that had the Rott that was later killed by the police. The house was on the corner, a two flat. I checked the whole yard for dogs, all clear. I walk up the stairs, go into the hallway where there is a door with glass missing leading upstairs and a door to my right. Before I knew it I see this Rott flying down the stairs at an angle that she could jump through the window at my throat. I had no where to go and I turned the knob of the other door and thankfully it opened. There sat a whole family looking at me as their pizza was upside down because I thought I would block the dog with that. I remember I couldn't breath, because I was so scared. If that door wasn't open that dog would have killed me, no doubt. I never understood how they could order a pizza and then not contain the dog? I also wonder that if I killed the dog, would I be in trouble for that?


Sorry you had to experience that, I can imagine how frightening that would be. I really don't know what the ramifications would be if you had killed that dog, but it would not surprise me that since it did not actually bite you, that some idiot would determine you had no right to protect yourself.


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## SuperG

llombardo said:


> This happened to me kind of. I delivered pizzas for my parents and went to a house that had the Rott that was later killed by the police. The house was on the corner, a two flat. I checked the whole yard for dogs, all clear. I walk up the stairs, go into the hallway where there is a door with glass missing leading upstairs and a door to my right. Before I knew it I see this Rott flying down the stairs at an angle that she could jump through the window at my throat. I had no where to go and I turned the knob of the other door and thankfully it opened. There sat a whole family looking at me as their pizza was upside down because I thought I would block the dog with that. I remember I couldn't breath, because I was so scared. If that door wasn't open that dog would have killed me, no doubt. I never understood how they could order a pizza and then not contain the dog? I also wonder that if I killed the dog, would I be in trouble for that?


I'd of just used my super ninja abilities...jump up and attach myself to the ceiling or wall ....no problem.

Great story...wouldn't want to have dealt with it...hope they gave you a good tip.


SuperG


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## cdwoodcox

The real danger would be a situation where cops are rolling in and busting down doors looking for criminals. Of course all of my dogs would move towards them barking whether they would actually bite or not would be irrelevant. They would be shot before anyone knew. Unless in all of the confusion and chaos you were able to call them back or put them in a place command. "not likely". That may be the least of your concerns. You're almost as likely to get shot going for your dog then the dog getting shot. 
The cops I have talked to that would be quick to shoot a dog seem to have a fear of dogs. So the fact that your dog is harmless may not matter if they see every dog as cujo. 
Yes, most cops are good people but, like all groups of people some should be drug to the street and beat.


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## Deb

llombardo said:


> I don't think it matters if your home of not. If they come to the wrong house and your home they should give you the chance to put the dogs up, but that doesn't happen because they don't know they are at the wrong house at that point.



I'm not sure, maybe slamdunc can answer this, but I would like to think, wrong or right house, if an officer is with you and you're not resisting, they could let you put the dog up.


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## astrovan2487

Not related to police but utility workers entering private property and injuring dogs. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...dogs-with-pipe-wrench/?utm_term=.402af2bc83e4
This particular story the utility worker enters the owner's yard to shut off a gas line that was not being paid for. He claims the owner knowingly let the dogs loose on him, owner claims guy just entered the yard without notice and started swinging, hurt both dogs bad and it was all on video. I don't know the outcome of this but I'd imagine it would be hard to prove the owner let the dogs out with the intent to hurt/scare the worker. When asked why the worker did not first knock on the door he answered that he didn't have to. This is pretty scary if a random utility worker can enter your property whenever they deem necessary. At least police are well trained and have background checks, I highly doubt the meter readers are as trust worthy. Private property does not appear to be so private anymore.


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## maxtmill

Really concerning.


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## Shooter

cdwoodcox said:


> The real danger would be a situation where cops are rolling in and busting down doors looking for criminals. Of course all of my dogs would move towards them barking whether they would actually bite or not would be irrelevant. They would be shot before anyone knew. Unless in all of the confusion and chaos you were able to call them back or put them in a place command. "not likely". That may be the least of your concerns. You're almost as likely to get shot going for your dog then the dog getting shot.
> The cops I have talked to that would be quick to shoot a dog seem to have a fear of dogs. So the fact that your dog is harmless may not matter if they see every dog as cujo.
> Yes, most cops are good people but, like all groups of people some should be drug to the street and beat.


You know, I keep a 9mm on my headboard, AR15 within 5 feet and a German Shepherd for eyes and ears while I sleep. This is for home invasion reasons so anybody kicks in my door it could get ugly quick. Cop or thug.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I can't get that video to play. Here is another link that clearly shows the family was lying and that the utility worker clearly was attacked by both dogs.






Since when don't utility workers have access to your property to read meters, etc.? They always did. I remember when meters used to be in the house and if you refused to let them in to read it they shut your utilities off. People used to have to call off of work and lose a day's pay to accommodate them. And it wasn't too long ago when you had to play the waiting game for each and every utility meter man to come into your yard. They did not have to call. And it was your responsibility to second guess when they would be there.


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## Deb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I can't get that video to play. Here is another link that clearly shows the family was lying and that the utility worker clearly was attacked by both dogs.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHjxN3IE-uY
> 
> Since when don't utility workers have access to your property to read meters, etc.? They always did. I remember when meters used to be in the house and if you refused to let them in to read it they shut your utilities off. People used to have to call off of work and lose a day's pay to accommodate them. And it wasn't too long ago when you had to play the waiting game for each and every utility meter man to come into your yard. They did not have to call. And it was your responsibility to second guess when they would be there.



For years around here if you build a house if you have a fence you have to have it inside of where the meter is so the person can read it without entering the fenced part of your property.


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## cdwoodcox

Shooter said:


> You know, I keep a 9mm on my headboard, AR15 within 5 feet and a German Shepherd for eyes and ears while I sleep. This is for home invasion reasons so anybody kicks in my door it could get ugly quick. Cop or thug.


Yeah, I have a 45 on me at all times. Safe full of rifles next to the bed. And I have three dogs to alert. I just hope if anyone comes in my home they are screaming who they are. But I have enough gun and 2nd amendment signs around my place that anyone who comes around already knows. But I still don't think I'm gonna win against a bunch of cops that may be entering my home.


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## astrovan2487

Here is the conclusion of this story;
Dog Attacked with Wrench by CenterPoint Energy Contractor Died
The one dog died from the injuries sustained in the attack. The utility company paid all the vet bills and will not allow the worker to do anymore contracts for them. They publicly released a statement about this so it's pretty obvious they reviewed the footage and found the worker to be at fault.


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## MineAreWorkingline

In today's world many find it better to settle than to have a long drawn out court battle. It happens all the time.


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## LuvShepherds

They are talking about smart meters that communicate directly with the office, and doing away with meter readers.


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> They are talking about smart meters that communicate directly with the office, and doing away with meter readers.


We have that here now, but it wasn't always like that. When you have meter men coming to your property unannounced, you have a responsibility to them, your dogs, and your wallet to be responsible.


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## llombardo

Deb said:


> I'm not sure, maybe slamdunc can answer this, but I would like to think, wrong or right house, if an officer is with you and you're not resisting, they could let you put the dog up.


This is what you might think, but I almost think it could be a stupid move on the officers part. If one is truly criminal what is stopping them from having their dog attack the officer so they can escape? We live in a crazy world.


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## llombardo

When I was putting up my fence I realized the gas meter would be on the inside, moved fence back at last minute so meter would be accessible without entering the yard.

I don't know if you guys remember but when I first moved in, an inspector was seen standing on my fence looking into the yard. I went to the office and told them right out that I had GSDs and I would not be responsible for their workers if they got bit because they were stupid enough to put themselves in that situation to be nosey. Never saw them again.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> This is what you might think, but I almost think it could be a stupid move on the officers part. If one is truly criminal what is stopping them from having their dog attack the officer so they can escape? We live in a crazy world.


They already do.

Dayton man held after dog bit officer*


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## Dainerra

astrovan2487 said:


> Here is the conclusion of this story;
> Dog Attacked with Wrench by CenterPoint Energy Contractor Died
> The one dog died from the injuries sustained in the attack. The utility company paid all the vet bills and will not allow the worker to do anymore contracts for them. They publicly released a statement about this so it's pretty obvious they reviewed the footage and found the worker to be at fault.


actually, all that means is that the insurance company said "it will be cheaper to simply pay" and the business agreed because it's cheaper to fire the man and not fight a battle in the court of public opinion. 

It's even possible (maybe even likely!) that no one even actually watched the footage. And definitely likely that whoever watched it actually knows nothing about dog behavior and evaluating such a situation. It's always cheaper for the company to pay in a case like this. Especially since you are simply talking about vet bills vs damages to a human.


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## Thecowboysgirl

llombardo said:


> This is what you might think, but I almost think it could be a stupid move on the officers part. If one is truly criminal what is stopping them from having their dog attack the officer so they can escape? We live in a crazy world.


I actually remember seeing an episode of Cops where I think they went to arrest a a guy for a dispute with a neighbor where someone got punched. He was in his garage which was open and a large GSD loose with him....can't remember how aggressive it was acting. I think they had them both at gun point but they told the guy to grab the dog and either let him put it up or maybe called his girlfriend or something to get the dog.


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## Suki's Mom

We have a contract with a lawn company for weed control and fertilizing. It's on file that they first come to the front door so my husband (who works from home) can keep the dogs in (during the summer the patio door is open and they have free in/out privileges). The gates have carabineers attached, so there is no accidental opening of either. Two summers ago, the Weed Man opened one gate, put the carabineer back on, and turned around to two barking dogs. By the time my husband got outside, he had actually scaled the 6-foot gate. They now knock every single time.


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## selzer

I am not worried.

First, police need a search warrant to come into your home uninvited. Yes, there can be a mistake and that could be tragic, has been tragic on a few occasions. But that is really rare. 

Second, most police officers have dogs and like dogs, and do not wake up in the morning thinking how many dogs they can shoot today. 

Third, every time an officer shoots their weapon, there is a lot of paperwork and I believe an investigation. It is totally under scrutiny of their management and peers. If they become known for dispatching dogs needlessly, they will be let go. 

Lastly, there is always the possibility of requiring emergency services within the home. If EMTs cannot get to me because of my dog's protecting me, there may not be time to wait for some one to get a catch-pole. And the dog might be shot, and that would probably kill me when they got me going. But it would be the right thing to do. We cannot prevent all possible tragedies. We cannot keep our pet in a box indefinitely because someone might need an EMT, or some police dispatcher might sing out the wrong address. And at the same time, no police officer should have to fight dogs while thugs are running away or are attacking them.


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## wolfy dog

I will put stickers on all outside entry doors "Dog on premises" We have a reflector house number sign (from the fire department) at the entrance of the drive way. And I will put up an extra one by the front door. That's all I can and will do. I decided not to crate her when I am gone and not to live in fear.


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## Thecowboysgirl

cdwoodcox said:


> The real danger would be a situation where cops are rolling in and busting down doors looking for criminals. Of course all of my dogs would move towards them barking whether they would actually bite or not would be irrelevant. They would be shot before anyone knew. Unless in all of the confusion and chaos you were able to call them back or put them in a place command. "not likely". That may be the least of your concerns. You're almost as likely to get shot going for your dog then the dog getting shot.
> The cops I have talked to that would be quick to shoot a dog seem to have a fear of dogs. So the fact that your dog is harmless may not matter if they see every dog as cujo.
> Yes, most cops are good people but, like all groups of people some should be drug to the street and beat.


The thing is, under what circumstances would acop "bust down a door looking for a criminal"? They need search warrants or at least probable cause, right? 

Now, I remember when the Boston marathon bombing happened and I saw videos of what looked like swat teams banging on doors and ordering people out of their own homes at gunpoint and I remember thinking that was pretty screwed up if they were just hauling innocent people out and searching their houses without warrants or anything. But it was also second hand cell phone video so I don't *really* know what was going on but I do believe some laws were broken during that incident. Stuff like that does scare me. I don't want to live in a police state or be subjected go martial law just whenever, but I think all that terrorist stuff is coming from over the cops' heads, not the cops themselves, and without turning this into a big conspiracy theory about terrorism....


I can only say for sure what I have known first hand and I can say fairly certainly that I have never been mistreated by a police officer and neither have my dogs. So that puts me in a position of feeling like if you conduct yourself well....be respectful, have well trained dogs or well contained dogs or both, don't run a dope den....this probably isn't going to be a problem for you/me.


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## Slamdunc

Selzer and Thecowboysgirl, thank you for those well thought out, reasonable, sensible posts.


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## ausdland

Funny thread.
Don't commit crimes and you don't have to be concerned about the police entering your home.
Don't aid criminals by allowing them to enter your home.
Contain your dog if it is aggressive.

I was searching a junk yard for a reported suspicious subject 25 years ago and was charged by a pit bull. I feared for my safety and shot that dog. It happened very fast. The owner was understandably upset. I was justified in my action. 

If a dog that is capable of inflicting great bodily injury moves aggressively towards the police in the course of their duties they are justified in defending themselves period. If the police come to your door, please contain your dog! If you're a career criminal and have aggressive dogs, whatever. I don't know any police officers that want to shoot people or dogs unnecessarily and I know hundreds of them. I'm surprised anyone on this forum is even concerned about this as my guess is everyone here is a pretty responsible person and dog owner.


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## Pan_GSD

my view is this

dont interfere with the officer's procedures, and don't threaten/or take part in action that are perceived to be threatening their safety

majority of the lethal use of force reported on the media that started this black lives matter movement is a result of the victim/suspect that failed to follow the above guideline

yes cops are people and there are crooked/dishonest/racist individuals, as with any employment or group
but most just want to carry out their jobs safely, with some outstanding officers doing it for the passion of truly serving the community
these people do not want to jeopardize their job, or have to defend their actions in court

just carry out your daily lives within the confines of the law, and you should be fine
at least that's my view when it comes to police


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## cdwoodcox

I didn't say I was worried about it. Just presenting a scenario where it would be a good possibility.


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## selzer

I live in the country, and my drive is over 100 feet long. My front walk is about 25-40 feet long. My front yard is almost never dry enough for anyone to drive over. My dogs will be barking like crazy before anyone pulls in the drive. If I am home, I will hear them, both inside and outside, and I will look out my window and see the police before the bust in my door. Then, I would probably send the one dog that currently has the run of the house back into the bedroom or out to the in/out before I open the door for the police. 

Sometimes I will leave a dog have the run of my house. Sometimes they are in an in/out with an x-pen or extra-tall baby gate or both separating them from the main part of my house. It is possible for the dogs to go over those gates, not probable, but if the cops came into my home when I was not there, it is possible. And, they may be shot. And that would be awful. 

The thing is, we have a breed that at worst is going to deter criminals from breaking in our house, at best will full-on engage with an attacker. The police are familiar with what the breed is capable of, and in many cases, that's why we have the dogs. Yes, they are pets. They are also formidable dogs that can do serious damage. 

I don't want my dogs shot. I think that part of the reason I have never been in trouble with the law is because I am thinking ahead to what will become of my dogs. Certainly my parents in their seventies cannot manage them all. Maybe the Werewolf and Cujo. Maybe. Would they if I was dumb enough to get myself thrown in prison for a number of months or years? Probably not. And what about the rest of them? The height of selfishness for me to get into a situation where I cannot care for my dogs, if it could be avoided. 

At the end of the day, the officer has a spouse, and parents and kids and siblings all of whom are dependent to some extent on him, at least emotionally, but some of them physically and mentally. No child should have to live without a parent because he wouldn't shoot a dog. Now, is the dog likely to kill an officer? No. Very unlikely. Extremely unlikely. But cops do not know what kind of situation they are going into. They could be coming for one thing and not know that the occupant is cooking meth, and perfectly happy to blow the officer away. A full grown GSD could give an assailant enough of an edge that because the officer did not shoot and engaged with the dog, the assailant was able to kill the officer. And then the officer's kids have to grow up with a memory of dad instead of a dad. Not good. 

Because some really bad people own these dogs and use these dogs as weapons in a violent manner, our dogs aren't as safe as we would like them to be. If bad guys new they'd be facing a rope or the chair if they kill a police officer, and 20 years in prison if they deliberately injure one, maybe we wouldn't be in this situation. Unfortunately, people shoot at, fight with, and sometimes kill police officers. This messes it up for all of us.


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## cloudpump

Can't be a dog owner if you are constantly worrying about something happening.
Can't constantly fear police if you want a normal life. 
Respect goes a long way.


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## Magwart

I haven't read this whole thread. I just want to put out there that these stories of police killing dogs that come up from time to time are simply NOT the daily life of my city. My experience is actually the opposite -- the stories of officer kindness to dogs never make the news! They're daily deeds done while hardly anyone is watching. I can't believe my community is singular -- there are probably officers doing all sorts of good things to help dogs all around you, but people just never notice.

One of the AWESOME foster parents for our rescue is a SWAT officer. He's one of the kindest, most level-headed dog people I know -- he's one of those people that dogs naturally gravitate to, respect, and like. Find a dog in an area he's in, and it's his buddy. He's been on the force 20 years. He's done some really dangerous work in place with a sky-high murder rate AND rampant dog fighting gangs. He's never had to shoot a dog. The guys he works with haven't either. He's one of the best dog rehabilitators our rescue has ever worked with--he's even taken on special needs foster dogs.

To add to this: several of my favorite rescues have come because our local PD officers and sheriff deputies took a break from crime-fighting to help a dog in need. 

I have tons of stories of good, honorable LEOs doing really kind things for dogs. Here are a few of the top of my head:

One dog who is now loved by his adopted family is alive because an officer picked him up and put him in the patrol car in the A/C on a humid, 110 degree Louisiana day. This was a dirty, stray dog who was dehydrated and weak. He could have just called it into animal control, let them come in an hour or so, and let the dog take its chances on the pavement. Instead, he kept it cool, gave it water, bought it a cheeseburger, drove it to the public shelter in his own car, and reached out to ask us to please go pull this very sweet dog so that it wouldn't get put down if no owner claimed it. He kept in touch with the shelter to check on it too! He was that dog's guardian angel.

Another GSD was surrendered to a LEO in lieu of arrest when the officer caught the dog's owner abandoning it in a dog park at 3AM -- the officer just wanted to get the dog safe without tying it up as "evidence" (to be held in a cage in the dog pound, in a piddly case that could drag on for months). It was a GOOD dog. He took the dog home and reached out to rescue for help.

Another dog came to us when fire fighters and police found the shepherd chained up with a wire around its muzzle while responding to a house fire. They saved the dog, and the first-responders made sure that dog got the care it needed.

When the K9 team hosts regional competitions, they invite breed rescue to put up a booth because lots of spectators come, and the spectators often want learn about owning GSDs as pets after seeing the K9s in action. The K9 commander doesn't have to go to that extra trouble, but he does it because he's a nice guy who cares about the community. 

Our area is sadly one of the few where retired K9s may end up in shelters after being sold or auctioned by cash-strapped departments. When a retired New Orleans PD K9 was in a kill-shelter as an old dog after being sold to an idiot, a NOPD retired K9 handler worked with NO-GSR to adopt this old dog -- and those two old cops are now enjoying a good retirement together. In the rescue world, people who will adopt old dogs are few and far between -- this was an act of extreme generosity by this retired officer.

I could go on and on. This is my reality, in South Louisiana. It may be yours too, but you may not be privileged to see the small (and large) acts of kindness toward animals that happen so routinely on so many officers' shifts.


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## Pan_GSD

Magwart said:


> Our area is sadly one of the few where retired K9s may end up in shelters after being sold or auctioned by cash-strapped departments.


so sad..


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## MineAreWorkingline

Two new stories today about police and dogs. 

Apparently it isn't always trigger happy LE, sometimes it is the dogs.

El Dorado News Times Dog bites man, police kill dog

Deputy bitten by pit bull during robbery call in Aurora Township


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## selzer

My God, I have three brothers and each one would be labeled one of "those owners." 

My youngest brother had a Golden Retriever for years, got it because he saw a therapy dog in work and thought, WoW!, got a puppy and did nothing with it. After years of it living in his back room, eating the carpeting, he finally gave the bored dog to someone who would appreciate him. 

My middle older brother is the one with a beagle/dachsund mix, that has had to have the mail shut off because of the animal's aggressiveness. It bit his own kid twice, and my little sister's youngest once. 

But the only one that had a run in with the cops and one of his dogs was my oldest brother. There are a few reasons that qualify him as one of "those owners." This one maybe, maybe not, but mostly it is what the cops did. 

My brother was on vacation and he left Dolly, the border collie mix in the yard in a make shift chicken wire enclosure, and I was to feed/water her daily. He left the chow mix in the basement, and my dad went with me the first day with his gun cocked. He would have shot that dog in a heart beat. But it was happy to see me -- I was a kid at the time, and I was able to feed it and give it water. 

The chow mix wasn't a friendly dog. They had a pile of matresses in their basement and the dog climbed to the top of them, chewed its way out of the window, and attacked the High School principle's wife as she was doing her daily jog. 

Got to love small towns. 

The police were called and they called my mom who was the clerk-treasurer of the village and she told them to shoot the dog. Chief Fabel said he couldn't do that. He caught the dog and put it in the chicken wire enclosure with Dolly. Mrs. Bragga wasn't hurt so no charges were filed. My brother got rid of the dog (probably put it down, but possibly gave it to one of his wife's 15 brothers and sisters, my folks didn't usually say what happened to a dog that was a liability). 

Of course that was over 30 years ago. Even then things were a lot different in cities. But the cops were not itching to shoot a dog, even an aggressive animal like that chow-mix.


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## Chip18

Sigh ... sorry in the real world ... there are "consequences" for poor "decisions" and "Some Cops" do shoot and kill indiscriminately "some dogs" all the freaking time! 

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...2437...0i22i30k1j33i160k1j33i21k1.8f2ZyUubiEM

And in the real world "some" Pit or "Derivatives there of" owning "neighbors" will .... when seconds "matter" secure there "Dog" "before" calling 911 if there neighbor is trouble! I don't care how "rare" a wrong address thing is?? It has happened "good enough for me!" Pitty's are but of course the number one victim of police dog shootings and "Boxers???" Are pretty high on the list also?? 

Personally ... I think GSD's are more likely to be given the benefit of the doubt before say a CC ... I saw that one on line ... the CC in the back yard never moved and was gunned like a ... well dog! Good enough for me ... if seconds matter and I need to call 911 for my neighbor ... "I will secure my well trained dogs first" before making that call! Most likely ... I am not alone but I don't know????


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## Slamdunc

Magwart, thank you for that post! It is refreshing to see some positive posts from people on these kinds of threads. MAW, thanks as well. 

Chip, I have no idea of what to make of many of your posts. You seem to take a lot of information off the internet as "gospel" as opposed to first hand experience.


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## MineAreWorkingline

And another current one...

Dog mauls husband and wife after they tried to dress 'Scarface' in a sweater - Story | abcactionnews.com | Tampa Bay News, Weather, Sports, Things To Do | WFTS-TV


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## MineAreWorkingline

https://dailycall.com/news/18976/officers-put-down-aggressive-pit-bull


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## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> Chip, I have no idea of what to make of many of your posts. You seem to take a lot of information off the internet as "gospel" as opposed to first hand experience.


LOL ... not a car thread ... first hand experiance with LE, would be my "numerous" one on one "first hand" encounters with various LE officers over the veracity of whether "speed kills" for one but yeah I do tend to leverage "first hand experiance" with "stuff over the internet. Just my thing.

But hey first hand ... apparently ..."traffic Circles" have speed limits ... who knew??? And radar detectors (V1) are crap (heard that one on a LEO) sites ... OK then. 

But ... I digress ... I have the "utmost" respect for you and "Baillif" many others also but you guys make the most "noise!" 

"Ballifi" often makes mention of "addressing issues directly" and stopping behaviours cold! And once awhile back you got on me about "ramping up corrections" with my use of a SLL. I did feel I was "misunderstood" but ... it was I did what I did (and had worked out fine) still ... I took note. And as it happened the day and opportunity arrived for my ..."well show me bit!" A "Pitty" I rescued off the street while otherwise sweet ... she had a serious freaking cat issue and I have five cats!!! The was short,agile fast and freaking powerful! Of course I used a SLL but it was readily apparent that any sideways corrections ... would be a waste of time!

It took "twice" upward pressure with the SLL and within "24 hours" my rescue "Pitty" no longer chased Cats! My cats testified to that statement! So ...without your input to my "ramp up thing??" I don't know if I would have had that result ... that quickly ... so yeah thanks for that. So Cat dog chasing turned around in 24 hours ... "first hand experiance" right there. 

But back on pointe, nope not "Gospel???" Just because "I" have not experienced something does not mean it did/not does/not happen??? :laugh2:

Apparently ... dogs are shot and killed by cops every 98 minutes??? People are free to do there on research and draw there own conclusions. And granted "wrong addresses" maybe rare but it does happen. And the number one victims are "Pits" and "derivatives thereof." 

But hey it's a GSD board in anycase so most don't care perhaps?? But ... I like to "keep" it real and in the real world my neighbor who has COPD had an acute attack! He also has a "friendly" but untrained jumping Boxer/Pit mix! When he was suffering an acute attack and could not breath ... he did not call 911 he called me! Because of his dog! I went over there secured his dog and I called 911. 

And he is not some hard "Dog Guy" like myself just "JQP" average "Pit Derivative" owner and he picked his dog "first" over minutes that could have been life or death for him! Hmmm, well in retrospect ... that is pretty hard core!! In anycase "we" see the evidence and like it or not "Cops Killing Dogs" does "change people's" behaviours ... "Blow Back" as it were.


I suppose one could take that as Gospel???


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## cdwoodcox

I don't think it is a stretch to say that anything is a possibility. It may be a rare possibility but nonetheless threads like this are a good thing. Hopefully my posts didn't come across as cop bashing. Lord knows that cops get a bad enough rap right now in America. However, if someone comes across this thread and it makes them think to put the dog up if officers come to their house, or keep the dog inside if officers are searching for someone in their neighborhood then that is a win for all parties. LE should appreciate that and dog owners don't have to worry about their dog getting shot because a cop misread it or becaise it was acting aggressively towards an officer. 
Problem with most issues in today's world is everyone is either too ignorant or too prideful to admit that there is something they could do differently on their part to help change the outcome they don't like.


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## Crunch Hardtack

A couple of thoughts: fortunately for us living on the Left Coast, most utility meters are located outside toward the street or on the side of the house with unhindered access for utility workers. Some property owners fence in their front and side properties where local codes allow; all bets are off for safety then if the dog(s) are allowed unfettered access there.

As for cops shooting dogs on private property, I was employed with a municipality for over 35 years, my line of work many times involved working alongside or with first responders. In that time, many opportunities manifested themselves to get to know these men and women. I schmoozed with fire, LEOs (law enforcement officers) and animal control. People are people. There are good cops, good fire fighters, and good animal control officers. There are those who are opposite of good in these departments too, and believe me, we had them also.

Unfortunately, society is such now that our once upon a time cop patrolling his beat while walking and whistling and twirling his wooden baton are long gone, now slowly turned into paramilitary units. Yeah, I watch _"Cops"_ quite often. These guys and gals patrolling today's beat are afraid for their safety, are on high alert and amped up to the max on some of their calls. Even for routine traffic stops, LEOs cautiously approach vehicles, many times with their shooting hand resting on or near for the ready, for their firearms.


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## newlie

"Unfortunately, society is such now that our once upon a time cop patrolling his beat while walking and whistling and twirling his wooden baton are long gone, now slowly turned into paramilitary units. Yeah, I watch _"Cops"_ quite often. These guys and gals patrolling today's beat are afraid for their safety, are on high alert and amped up to the max on some of their calls. Even for routine traffic stops, LEOs cautiously approach vehicles, many times with their shooting hand resting on or near for the ready, for their firearms."

And who could blame them in today's climate?

Sure, there are bad apples in law enforcement just as in any other profession and they are not immune from mistakes, but it's been my experience after many years on this earth that most of us have little to fear from them. Live right, obey the laws and if they do approach you for some reason, do what you are told, it's that simple. The "worst" thing that has ever happened to me was a traffic ticket.

I don't leave Newlie outside running in the yard when I am not home, he is in the house. I always look outside before I open the door and if was a police officer, I would put Newlie away. The chance of police officers breaking down my door (in error) is so small that I have never even thought about it, but if it happened, I would put Newlie behind me and ask to put him away. I don't really know what else I could do, in my opinion any dog that is worth his salt is not going to be happy about someone breaking down the door to the house.

And don't get me wrong, I would be devastated if Newlie was shot by a police officer. But what if a suspected rapist or murderer jumped your fence during a chase? You could not expect law enforcement to waste valuable minutes while you put your dog up and then resume the chase. 

No, I agree with some of the others. You use common sense and take whatever proactive measures you can to keep your dog safe. The rest is out of your hands.


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## llombardo

I have witnessed or experiences with both sides(officers that don't care for dogs/have killed dogs and those that like dogs/go out of the way so everyone is safe). 

My hope is that if the situation arose that I would be respected enough to get my dog to safety. Will I always have my guard up? Yes, because I can't forget the experiences that I have had or someone I know has had that wasn't good. 

I understand they have to protect themselves, but if they are wrong, they need to be accountable--period. Everyone is accountable for their actions, I don't care if you are an officer or not. I do believe there is more fear amongst police now because the world has gone mad. I think its a shame how bad things are on the streets for them. Society has made it that no one really can tell who is good or bad anymore and you must always be on guard. 

I'm not a criminal nor do I engage in criminal activities and I do not want to be treated like a criminal. If I call the police, my dogs will be put away. If a criminal jumps in my yard with the dogs out there, I would do my best not to interfere and get my dogs out of the way. Although it might almost be comical watching the reaction of a criminal jumping in my yard with 7 dogs. If they come to my house by mistake and let me get my dogs put away, great. If not, then I do have a problem with that.


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## Slamdunc

Newlie, thank you! 

Common sense goes a long way, unfortunately common sense appears for many to be the least common of all the senses. 

Comments like this are rather disheartening and cause me to shake my head:

*Yes, most cops are good people but, like all groups of people some should be drug to the street and beat.*

Doesn't sound like cop bashing to me. :surprise:

There are a few things that I am trained in, and I have a certain skill set with or actual hands on experience. These are the things I comment on here. I do have a few years of GSD experience, I have a few years of handling and training GSD's including show handling at Regional and Sieger shows. I have decoyed for a few IPO dogs over the years and titled a few from pups. I work a dual purpose K-9 and I train LE K-9's every day. I also teach many classes at our academy, from Firearms, DT, courtroom testimony, K-9, etc. Officer Survival or as it is now called, "Patrol Tactics." Basically, how to survive traffic stops and violent encounters. I also know a little about case law, including Use of Force, Fourth Amendment issues, Narcotics Distribution, and K-9 case law. I have been certified as an "Expert" in all of these with our General District and Circuit Courts. The reason that I mention is this is simply to say that I only comment on things that I believe I have some real world training and experience in. My comments do not come from heresay form my cousin Billy Bob or some stats that I read on the internet. Simply, if I have not been there and done that, I don't offer an opinion or comment like a "zealot" if I can't back up my statement with facts. A good majority of the posts on this thread are factless, baseless and comical. Like the ones that say something to the effect of "I will fight the cops or a thug if they do this or that....And I am armed." Actually, All I hear is blah blah blah. 

I will also say that there is no such thing as a routine traffic stop and there never has been. Traffic stops are classified as an "unknown risk." Criminals do not obey the law and they certainly do not obey traffic laws. I've literally arrested hundreds of wanted individuals on minor traffic stops. I've also given brakes and warnings to thousands more. I don't write tickets, but I do make a lot of traffic stops. Polite, law abiding citizens are given a warning and asked to correct the violation and no tickets are issued. Folks with outstanding warrants, dope and guns are a different story. I am prepared to defend myself on every traffic stop and citizen encounter. This is nothing new, this has been the standard for Police work. I am fair, polite and pleasant to every person I meet. I am polite, calm and firm to every occupant of a vehicle on a traffic stop but be assured that I have a tactical plan in mind before I approach the vehicle to deal with anyone that may suddenly become violent, try to flea or resist. I do this on every single traffic stop and it is kept me from getting hurt, shot or seriously injured more than once. Officers need to be constantly hyper vigilant in a very violent society where some folks have put bullseyes on our backs. I am not "afraid" for my safety, I am just acutely aware of the risks that being a Police Officer has. There are few occupations where you go to work and wonder if some one is going to try to kill or assault you that shift. Things have absolutely gotten worse in the past few years for many reasons and as a Police officer we can never be too careful or too safe. I have never shot a dog, I've been chased by a few pits and made over the fence. Been growled at by GSD's, Rotties and many mutts and have never shot one. If a pit or pit mix, or any large dog charges me in the street or in a house,or is let loose by a dope dealer I will defend myself and my dog, period. End of story, I'm not getting mauled and neither is my dog. I get bit enough at work and I am not afraid of dogs. 

Thousands of dogs are killed each day, every second in shelters across this country, that is a problem. If you are a responsible dog owner you really have little to nothing to worry about form the Police.


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## Nigel

I worked in law enforcement for a couple years and decided it wasn't for me. It's tough work for sure, you are regularly dealing with the worst elements of the community. Most of those I worked with were good honest people and only a few fit the label as being "bad apples" imop. 

Thats something to take into account, while there is a remote chance someone may have an unexpected encounter with police, odds are they're good people that are not out to cause harm in the performance of their duties.

I can only recall one incident locally where someone's dog was shot by police. The police were tracking a suspect and encountered a loose dog. The K9 officer attempted to get his dog to the safety of his vehicle, but the dog caught up and was able to latch onto the k9's rear leg as it was being loaded up.


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## cdwoodcox

Slamdunc said:


> Newlie, thank you!
> 
> Common sense goes a long way, unfortunately common sense appears for many to be the least common of all the senses.
> 
> Comments like this are rather disheartening and cause me to shake my head:
> 
> *Yes, most cops are good people but, like all groups of people some should be drug to the street and beat.*
> 
> Doesn't sound like cop bashing to me. :surprise:
> .


 It can't be any surprise that some cops should not be cops. Some cops are just as much criminal as the thugs you would arrest. I think a lot of people should be drug into the street and beaten. Yes, unfortunately there are some cops that fall into that group of people. Along with certain people from almost every group you can think of. So it's not cop bashing it's worthless thug bashing. 
I have the utmost respect for LEO'S. You sound like a fair upstanding guy. I 100% think that most Leo's are just that. Unfortunately the few bad apples seemingly get the spotlight and paint a lot more than need to be as bad.


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## llombardo

cdwoodcox said:


> It can't be any surprise that some cops should not be cops. Some cops are just as much criminal as the thugs you would arrest. I think a lot of people should be drug into the street and beaten. Yes, unfortunately there are some cops that fall into that group of people. Along with certain people from almost every group you can think of. So it's not cop bashing it's worthless thug bashing.
> I have the utmost respect for LEO'S. You sound like a fair upstanding guy. I 100% think that most Leo's are just that. Unfortunately the few bad apples seemingly get the spotlight and paint a lot more than need to be as bad.


This. I started to post something similar and lost it. Part of the reason I did not become an officer is because of behavior I saw. There is bad and good in all races, groups, occupations, etc. I would never wish harm on them and it disturbs me when people think they are above the law and can hurt or kill anyone due to the fact there are bad ones out there, because it's always the good ones that lose. 

I believe that in order to be a police officer you have to be on your toes, be fair, and love helping people(no matter what, even the very people that hate them) and acknowledge that there are bad police officers. If you don't acknowledge that you are not helping. Good can beat evil and if all the good in any group stand up against the bad, they will win. But first you have to acknowledge, you have to say it. There is no defending the ugly that is out there everywhere. Take s stand and make a difference. Those that do are truly the best of the best.


----------



## selzer

Like Chris Rock says, "Obey the Law." 

And, you probably won't get your butt kicked by the police. 
And, you probably won't get your dog killed by the police works as well. 

Use common sense. Be polite. Never drive with a mad woman -- oh, ok that one doesn't fit but is funny. 

This is going pretty strong on Facebook as well. I suppose I see it as a no-brainer. If the dog is rushing toward a police officer, barking and unrestrained. Chances are it may not end well. And, it will be the dog owner's fault. We need to stop having the attitude that "accidents happen." If the dog rushes out your front door and in front of a car and gets smooshed, do you blame the driver? We need to stop pointing the fingers at other people and take responsibility for our dog's safety. 

When I woke up unable to breathe, I popped a prednizone and drove to my parents' house. My asthma doctor was pretty pissed about that. I thought I was having a heart attack until I remembered the asthma. So I took a pred and got to my parents. We don't always have the ability to put the animals up. At some point, you may have to accept that your dog might be hurt or killed in some circumstances. 

I currently have Peekachu (parakeet) and Munchie or Chubchoo(Guinea pig) at my house. My sister is worried that my dogs might eat them. I would be more worried about the one getting into the rat poison. But they are probably as safe with me as they would be anywhere else while my sister is away. Should my sister never travel again because she has pets? Your dog is probably far more likely to be lost/killed being left with a pet sitter or at a kennel, than shot by cops. But most of you are willing to take the risk of leaving the animal in the care of relatives, pet sitter or kennel. It's happened. I've seen a dog check himself out of a veterinary clinic on videotape. Was a GSD. I've seen a story where a dog was lost at a kennel, and the dog was killed trying to get home. First-hand, one of my puppy buyers left his dog with his sister when he went down to visit an ailing relative, and the puppies were let out and ran in front of the school bus. The sister's pup made it, the other pup died. 

I think if you dig down deep enough, you will become agoraphobic and never allow yourself or your pup to live at all. We can't stop living because there have been a few cases of animals getting killed one way or another.


----------



## Chip18

cdwoodcox said:


> I think a lot of people should be drug into the street and beaten. Yes, unfortunately there are some cops that fall into that group of people. Along with certain people from almost every group you can think of. So it's not cop bashing it's worthless thug bashing.


LOL ... while I do admire your "attitude" and "consistency" most likely ... that is not the way to go. But you know what ... I get it and all it takes to be generous is a few "Rouge Elements" within a given organization to have unforeseen consequences in the "behaviour of JQP' sometimes it goods ... sometimes not so much ... I suppose??

But OK to "my" point on "Behavioural changes" of "Pit and Pity Derivatives" members and as to rather that is indeed a thing??? ( have better things to do with my time than to track down and verify "news accounts" but ... whatever I brought it up.

My dogs are (were lost some since then) absolutely 100 percent "Carproof!!" Doors open ... windows down ... they don't step foot out of the vehical "until I say so ... period end of the story!" Pretty sure many here have dogs that can do the exact same thing?? Certainly ... not ali but that's another story.


Today I pretty much take "training that as a given." But fourteen years ago ... I was a "newbie" and I saw this story on the "internet." CNN.com - Video shows police killing dog - Jan. 9, 2003

At the time I did ... see the video and that dog was not a threat!! It said to me that "some freaking" Cops are indeed "A-Holes" and they will shoot your dog if given the "slightest provocation!!" It changed "my" behaviour with "my" dogs (in a good way) but that's not my point. So yeah I guess I pretty much took that story as "Gospel" and I'm good with that! 

And much like the K9 units out here that round with blacked out windows and whose dogs ...if they are in there?? "Don't make a sound" neither do mine! I don't roll with a K9 unit on board decals. I only got one comment on them once when I was pulled over at night and I asked if I could turn the dome light on. Then he saw them and said "Nice Dogs." 

I did get a ticket but he cut me break and wrote for 10 miles under. That fact that overall is a good thing in anycase ... is "besides the point." It was a choice made by me because of "Dogs being shot by Cops." 

That is a behaviour change brought on directly by "Cops Shooting" dogs and most likely some form of that is why my neighbor called "me" and not 911 first??? And no one polled "us" but I feel fairly safe in saying that at least among the "Pit and there derivatives" members of JQP we "will indeed do nothing" if we think a "quick call" to 911 will endanger our pets??? 

It's called "Blow Back" there are "consequences for poor choices" by dogs, individuals are groups! Pretty much that simple.


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> If the dog is rushing toward a police officer, barking and unrestrained. Chances are it may


 I would expect not ...but such was not the case with the Bull Dog I just mentioned ... nor was it the case with the incident of "Bear Bear" in a Dog Park "you" mentioned a few years ago. Shot down in a "Dog Park" by and off duty Cop.

Nor was it the case with two groups of 3 three Boxers (separate incidents) one pack "killed by" an off duty office/neighbors, they escaped through the garage door and the other by a gun carrying ( guy on the street) member of JQP as the dogs were on there way to where Grandma "used" to live, he tracked them down and shot them becasue they looked like "Pits."


So yes a blend of civilian and LE there but the commonality is becasue "I can Kill those dogs I will!" Despite what some of chose to belive ... some "people" will do that! And yes the "commonality (in my Boxer example)" again is they were all "poorly trained dogs" no doubt but they were non threats. But you know ... whatever ... the "get out of jail free card" for Le is "They Looked Like a Threat To Me???" Course that glosses over, dogs shot that never moved or were shot in the back while retreating ...blab blab. The standard fall back postion despite video in many cases ... and of course the old "you were not there ..." blab blab blab. 


"We" see that "crap" and it does change our behaviour. And no law abiding "pit owners," least ways not us non gun owners are calling for an armed uprising??? But you know what ... when seconds counts ... some of us will be spending those "precious second" securing our well behaved "Pit or Pit Derivatives" before calling 911 ... if at all?? If we happen to see "Suspects at Large??" A poor decisions perhaps ... but you know ... people do stuff.


Which is as it happens kinda funny becasue ... I do remember my "pit" owning neighbor telling me that awhile ago he heard someone come over his fence one night?? I heard his dog barking at an odd hour?? He did not call the cops and neither did I. So ... yeah.


----------



## selzer

Bear Bear was a dog playing in a dog park. The cop was an off-duty officer who had no business shooting another person's dog in a dog park. These incidents are remembered because they are out there, they are not the norm. They are rare. I was insensed on that one more by the people here wanting to know "all the facts" meaning guy tried and convicted or vindicated before anyone should have an opinion, which never is the case with anybody but police. 

This was not an officer, on duty, being attacked by a dog and possibly an owner that may be trying to flee or attack. It was a situation where a guy is out with his girl and his dog, at a dog event, where dogs run around off lead with each other, and he jumped to the gun before anyone had a chance to avoid a possible common dog situation. The rest of the population manages to get their animals through life without pulling out their gun and blowing possible threats away. 

If you are looking for 100% of people in ANY occupation to be perfect 100% of the time, then you due for a lifetime of disappointment. Because 1 LEO made a bad judgement concerning his dog and another dog at a dog park is not a reason to put 100% of LEOs into more danger when they are trying to perform their job. Sorry. But if my dog gets in the way of a police officer trying to do his job, and is barking or acting threatening and is unrestrained -- unabated to the quarterback, than that's on me, not the LEO.


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> Bear Bear was a dog playing in a dog park. The cop was an off-duty officer who had no business shooting another person's dog in a dog park. These incidents are remembered because they are out there, they are not the norm. They are rare. I was incensed on that one more by the people here wanting to know "all the facts" meaning guy tried and convicted or vindicated before anyone should have an opinion, which never is the case with anybody but police.
> 
> This was not an officer, on duty, being attacked by a dog and possibly an owner that may be trying to flee or attack. It was a situation where a guy is out with his girl and his dog, at a dog event, where dogs run around off lead with each other, and he jumped to the gun before anyone had a chance to avoid a possible common dog situation. The rest of the population manages to get their animals through life without pulling out their gun and blowing possible threats away.
> 
> If you are looking for 100% of people in ANY occupation to be perfect 100% of the time, then you due for a lifetime of disappointment. Because 1 LEO made a bad judgement concerning his dog and another dog at a dog park is not a reason to put 100% of LEOs into more danger when they are trying to perform their job. Sorry. But if my dog gets in the way of a police officer trying to do his job, and is barking or acting threatening and is unrestrained -- unabated to the quarterback, than that's on me, not the LEO.


I fully understand the Bear Bear situation, I've used and cited it. 

It's pretty much unreasonable to expect "100" percent of any given group of "individuals" to be perfect??? Yes as you say that would be pretty much unrealistic. But that particular case ... "just happened" to fall into the subject category of this thread ... nothing more nothing less. 

I did not bother to cite that one here ... nor the "twin triple" Boxers gunned down cases ... if people care that much ... they can find them. I only cited one case for my first hand experiance (as requested) as to why I say ... the ill behaviour of "some members of the LE community" can have an impact on the "Behaviour of JQP!" And "denying that does not happen" does not much cut ice with "us!" As you know ... I'm a show me kinda guy and I value consistency. 

But you know (back on point) people can have there own "opinions" but they don't get to have there on facts! And the fact of the matter is that while "Pit's" are the number one perpetrators of maulings and killing of people (numbers don't lie) ... they and "Derivatives thereof" are also the number one "victims" of LE shootings again (numbers don't lie!) Pretty sure "some" would say .. yeah I'm good with that??

Sorry I have/had both and all "my" dogs" are well trained but I have no doubt that a "Cop ... Dog Killing A-Hole" that happen to get the "address wrong," would have gunned down my American Dawg or Boxer before my GSD! Just because "crap" doesn't happen to me?? Does not mean it does not happen??? 

I have no "issue" with "anyone" here but you know ... "the attack the messenger" thing gets kinda old. "Google" is your freind! Telling "some of us" ... "who you are you going to belive "me or your lying eyes" does not cut it! "We" see it happening" and right or wrong some of us (Pit owners) will not be so quick to call 911 ... that is all I'm saying. There are "consequences" for poor behaviour! And yes ... I suppose ... one could take that as "Gospel!" 

So sorry "Selzer" not about you ... just a point of reference on my part. 

To wit ... if you knowingly break the law ... "expect" consequences! In my case ... front license plate! I "won't" run one! In NV the law is "if there is a spot for one on the bumper ... then you need to have one!" I know becasue in a "Black Ice" fender bender ... I asked the office about the front plate?? And as described ... that is what he said. OK ... now I know ... no ciation. On another occasion the NVP specifically did a U Turn and did a traffic stop because "I did not have a front license plate!" I pulled over he explained the why of the stop. No problem ... no issues ... he asked some "silly" questions, I felt. But you know he got no crap from me! I know the law and I active broke it! So if I get pulled up for actively breaking a law that know and understand ... while it would be pretty silly to cop (no pun intended) an attitude??

But you know what?? He did not issue a "citation!" And my take ... "if they can't be bother issue a citation" then I can't be bother put a plate on. 

That was a few years ago and I still don't run one ... for the most part LE does not seem to care?? If I do get pulled over ... then yeah my bad I know the law and chose "not to comply" no need for attitude on my part?? 

But an ill behaved, badly trained, family dog bump rushing the front door like it's always done and being gunned down in front of a six year old by "LE" yes ... I saw that one online (family had security cameras!) YES ... I have a problem with that! And "now" "Rufus" is dead a child is "traumatised" and another dog killing Cop walks away with the *"I felt threatened thing!" 
*
Freaking ticks me off so yeah ... good luck to "anyone" telling "me" and others like "me" that crap does not happen??? So ... in anycase "sorry" Bear Bear was not about you! People say stuff and I take note (despite what some my belive) and yeah if required ... I bring it back. Pretty much that simple ... no disrespect intended.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> So yes a blend of civilian and LE there but the commonality is becasue "I can Kill those dogs I will!"


If you are going to add the number of dogs killed by civilians to the pot, why not add the literally thousands of dogs killed by Pits every year? Yep, they see pet dogs and know they can kill them so they do.

The number of dogs killed by LE and civilians pales in comparison.

Where is the outrage for all those innocent dogs?


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## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If you are going to add the number of dogs killed by civilians to the pot, why not add the literally thousands of dogs killed by Pits every year? Yep, they see pet dogs and know they can kill them so they do.
> 
> The number of dogs killed by LE and civilians pales in comparison.
> 
> Where is the outrage for all those innocent dogs?



I don't think that you can compare any human killing a dog versus a dog killing a dog. If you do that then throw in all those dogs that are tortured and trained to kill, by humans. 

Humans can make choices. A dog doesnt have the ability to do so. If one thinks they do, then they are humanizing the dog. The thought process isn't there. 

There are tons of different situations that can arise with dogs. People make choices in a split second. Some are right, some aren't. 

Just recently there was a pit bull that grabbed a poodle, they broke up the fight and the poodles owner took the pit bull in his house and slit his throat. Absolutely not necessary and truly makes you wonder how sick a person is to do that? If he defended his dog at the time by stabbing the pit, completely different(not that I agree with that either) but it's more understandable. So in the end while psycho man was killing the pit his dog laid there dying. So now there are two dead dogs and he is in jail. I can't help but wonder if he took his dog to the vet instead of wasting valuable time killing a dog AFTER the fact if his dog might havd lived.

Seriously who in there right mind does not rush their dog to a vet? What kind of person is more concerned with getting even as their dog is laying there? Choices people make are questionable across the board.


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## MineAreWorkingline

How about all these dogs killed? Do their lives count?

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...UTF-8#q=police k9s killed in the line of duty


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> I don't think that you can compare any human killing a dog versus a dog killing a dog. If you do that then throw in all those dogs that are tortured and trained to kill, by humans.
> 
> Humans can make choices. A dog doesnt have the ability to do so. If one thinks they do, then they are humanizing the dog. The thought process isn't there.
> 
> There are tons of different situations that can arise with dogs. People make choices in a split second. Some are right, some aren't.
> 
> Just recently there was a pit bull that grabbed a poodle, they broke up the fight and the poodles owner took the pit bull in his house and slit his throat. Absolutely not necessary and truly makes you wonder how sick a person is to do that? If he defended his dog at the time by stabbing the pit, completely different(not that I agree with that either) but it's more understandable. So in the end while psycho man was killing the pit his dog laid there dying. So now there are two dead dogs and he is in jail. I can't help but wonder if he took his dog to the vet instead of wasting valuable time killing a dog AFTER the fact if his dog might havd lived.
> 
> Seriously who in there right mind does not rush their dog to a vet? What kind of person is more concerned with getting even as their dog is laying there? Choices people make are questionable across the board.


A dog's life is worth less because it was killed by a Pit Bull and not LE? Maybe that is how you feel, but I highly doubt that is a consensus.

Personally I would be more accepting of LE killing a dog of mine. Most likely there would have had to be a reason for that to happen. I can't comprehend the tolerance in this country to accepting the thousands of annual pet dog deaths by Pit Bulls, and the attached excuses for the behavior, but that has been gone over in detail in a multitude of threads on here, no need to do it again. Excuses get old, pet dogs are still dying, the laws still favor the killers and people still turn blind eyes.

And the Pit that killed the Poodle attacked the Poodle's owner and was being aggressive with people on site. What was the man to do? Allow it to keep on attacking people until LE or AC arrives. People are more important than Pit Bulls.


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How about all these dogs killed? Do their lives count?
> 
> https://www.google.com/webhp?source...UTF-8#q=police k9s killed in the line of duty


I personally think killing a k9 should be a nursed charge. That does not make it okay for police officers to kill pets. it's a very fine line. Sure it's going to happen but it happens way to often. If there are no consequences then it's only going to get worse. 

If you want to go this route, check out how many K9s die in hot cars and due to handler error. What are the consequences? Why do civilians face consequences and officers don't?

It's just all very sad and disturbing. There is no balance of fairness. The laws apply when needed for certain things and new laws are made so that an ongoing problem can be swept under the rug. Basically what has happened is that there has been lawsuit after lawsuit for police killing pets, so instead of giving more training they make a law that protects police from any wrongdoing no matter what. It's not a good law. They need to come up with a solution, not a band aid.


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A dog's life is worth less because it was killed by a Pit Bull and not LE? Maybe that is how you feel, but I highly doubt that is a consensus.
> 
> Personally I would be more accepting of LE killing a dog of mine. Most likely there would have had to be a reason for that to happen. I can't comprehend the tolerance in this country to accepting the thousands of annual pet dog deaths by Pit Bulls, and the attached excuses for the behavior, but that has been gone over in detail in a multitude of threads on here, no need to do it again. Excuses get old, pet dogs are still dying, the laws still favor the killers and people still turn blind eyes.
> 
> And the Pit that killed the Poodle attacked the Poodle's owner and was being aggressive with people on site. What was the man to do? Allow it to keep on attacking people until LE or AC arrives. People are more important than Pit Bulls.



Never said any dogs life is worthless. 

As far as the man that killed the dog? He is still sitting in jail and it's because people witnessed what he did. It was after the fact.

“California law allows a property owner to protect himself and his property — for example, their pet — when another animal tries to attack the property owner or a family member, or the animal attacks their pet,” Welsh wrote. “However, the willful killing of another person’s animal can result in felony animal cruelty charges.”

"The animal control officer who responded said he didn’t think Barajas’ response was necessary, Welsh said.

“Officers Morales said he believed the stabbing appeared to have been performed out of spite toward the pit bull’s actions and the neighbor,” Welsh wrote.

The guy wasn't protecting anything, he is a psycho and that would be the reason he was arrested and put in jail.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> I personally think killing a k9 should be a nursed charge. That does not make it okay for police officers to kill pets. it's a very fine line. Sure it's going to happen but it happens way to often. If there are no consequences then it's only going to get worse.
> 
> If you want to go this route, check out how many K9s die in hot cars and due to handler error. What are the consequences? Why do civilians face consequences and officers don't?
> 
> It's just all very sad and disturbing. There is no balance of fairness. The laws apply when needed for certain things and new laws are made so that an ongoing problem can be swept under the rug. Basically what has happened is that there has been lawsuit after lawsuit for police killing pets, so instead of giving more training they make a law that protects police from any wrongdoing no matter what. It's not a good law. They need to come up with a solution, not a band aid.


Why not bring up the price of tea in China too?

Where in the world did you ever see LE not held responsible for a dog that died from heatstroke in a car? I am sure it happens but I see just the opposite, they are held accountable.

Chip took this way off topic by using his personal google search NOT about dogs shot by police but about what breed is shot the most. Everybody here knows where that was going.

The police have more training, more than you think, and more than I want to go into on this thread. The police are here to protect and serve....PEOPLE, not dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> Never said any dogs life is worthless.
> 
> As far as the man that killed the dog? He is still sitting in jail and it's because people witnessed what he did. It was after the fact.
> 
> “California law allows a property owner to protect himself and his property — for example, their pet — when another animal tries to attack the property owner or a family member, or the animal attacks their pet,” Welsh wrote. “However, the willful killing of another person’s animal can result in felony animal cruelty charges.”
> 
> "The animal control officer who responded said he didn’t think Barajas’ response was necessary, Welsh said.
> 
> “Officers Morales said he believed the stabbing appeared to have been performed out of spite toward the pit bull’s actions and the neighbor,” Welsh wrote.
> 
> The guy wasn't protecting anything, he is a psycho and that would be the reason he was arrested and put in jail.


Can you please point out where I stated that you said that dogs' lives were worthless? If you can't, please refrain from making false accusations about me. I really, really don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth and then expecting me to defend "their" words.

The man who defended himself and community from an aggressive Pit Bull is NOT in jail. That is FACT.

Riverside man free on bail after alleged pit-bull killing | abc7.com

Animal Control's opinion is just that, an opinion, they weren't there and they are going off of hearsay.

In this country, one is assumed innocent until proven guilty, that is unless things have changed and AC is now judge and jury.


----------



## holland

Slamdunc said:


> Newlie, thank you!
> 
> Common sense goes a long way, unfortunately common sense appears for many to be the least common of all the senses.
> 
> Comments like this are rather disheartening and cause me to shake my head:
> 
> *Yes, most cops are good people but, like all groups of people some should be drug to the street and beat.*
> 
> Doesn't sound like cop bashing to me. :surprise:
> 
> There are a few things that I am trained in, and I have a certain skill set with or actual hands on experience. These are the things I comment on here. I do have a few years of GSD experience, I have a few years of handling and training GSD's including show handling at Regional and Sieger shows. I have decoyed for a few IPO dogs over the years and titled a few from pups. I work a dual purpose K-9 and I train LE K-9's every day. I also teach many classes at our academy, from Firearms, DT, courtroom testimony, K-9, etc. Officer Survival or as it is now called, "Patrol Tactics." Basically, how to survive traffic stops and violent encounters. I also know a little about case law, including Use of Force, Fourth Amendment issues, Narcotics Distribution, and K-9 case law. I have been certified as an "Expert" in all of these with our General District and Circuit Courts. The reason that I mention is this is simply to say that I only comment on things that I believe I have some real world training and experience in. My comments do not come from heresay form my cousin Billy Bob or some stats that I read on the internet. Simply, if I have not been there and done that, I don't offer an opinion or comment like a "zealot" if I can't back up my statement with facts. A good majority of the posts on this thread are factless, baseless and comical. Like the ones that say something to the effect of "I will fight the cops or a thug if they do this or that....And I am armed." Actually, All I hear is blah blah blah.
> 
> I will also say that there is no such thing as a routine traffic stop and there never has been. Traffic stops are classified as an "unknown risk." Criminals do not obey the law and they certainly do not obey traffic laws. I've literally arrested hundreds of wanted individuals on minor traffic stops. I've also given brakes and warnings to thousands more. I don't write tickets, but I do make a lot of traffic stops. Polite, law abiding citizens are given a warning and asked to correct the violation and no tickets are issued. Folks with outstanding warrants, dope and guns are a different story. I am prepared to defend myself on every traffic stop and citizen encounter. This is nothing new, this has been the standard for Police work. I am fair, polite and pleasant to every person I meet. I am polite, calm and firm to every occupant of a vehicle on a traffic stop but be assured that I have a tactical plan in mind before I approach the vehicle to deal with anyone that may suddenly become violent, try to flea or resist. I do this on every single traffic stop and it is kept me from getting hurt, shot or seriously injured more than once. Officers need to be constantly hyper vigilant in a very violent society where some folks have put bullseyes on our backs. I am not "afraid" for my safety, I am just acutely aware of the risks that being a Police Officer has. There are few occupations where you go to work and wonder if some one is going to try to kill or assault you that shift. Things have absolutely gotten worse in the past few years for many reasons and as a Police officer we can never be too careful or too safe. I have never shot a dog, I've been chased by a few pits and made over the fence. Been growled at by GSD's, Rotties and many mutts and have never shot one. If a pit or pit mix, or any large dog charges me in the street or in a house,or is let loose by a dope dealer I will defend myself and my dog, period. End of story, I'm not getting mauled and neither is my dog. I get bit enough at work and I am not afraid of dogs.
> 
> Thousands of dogs are killed each day, every second in shelters across this country, that is a problem. If you are a responsible dog owner you really have little to nothing to worry about form the Police.


....Not an expert ....but they are probably going to flee rather that flea:grin2:


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## LuvShepherds

holland said:


> ....Not an expert ....but they are probably going to flee rather that flea:grin2:


Not funny. A lot of us make typos.


----------



## LuvShepherds

llombardo said:


> Never said any dogs life is worthless.
> 
> As far as the man that killed the dog? He is still sitting in jail and it's because people witnessed what he did. It was after the fact.
> 
> “California law allows a property owner to protect himself and his property — for example, their pet — when another animal tries to attack the property owner or a family member, or the animal attacks their pet,” Welsh wrote. “However, the willful killing of another person’s animal can result in felony animal cruelty charges.”
> 
> "The animal control officer who responded said he didn’t think Barajas’ response was necessary, Welsh said.
> 
> “Officers Morales said he believed the stabbing appeared to have been performed out of spite toward the pit bull’s actions and the neighbor,” Welsh wrote.
> 
> The guy wasn't protecting anything, he is a psycho and that would be the reason he was arrested and put in jail.


He was not a psycho. I read several different accounts of the story and the person they quoted was making an opinion statement, not stating a known fact. He didn't even know the man or the reasons at the time he spoke.


----------



## Deb

LuvShepherds said:


> He was not a psycho. I read several different accounts of the story and the person they quoted was making an opinion statement, not stating a known fact. He didn't even know the man or the reasons at the time he spoke.


Sadly the media picks out the statement they use by which one will get the most controversy, the most impact by the public. Get their paper read by more people. They don't usually research to find which statement is actually fact. People shouldn't take as fact the first article they read on an event or any other 'news'. It takes time and research to find all the facts about a situation or a story. Hence the amount of time police and lawyers take before anything goes to a trial. Often the first 'facts' are either not true or are only a small part of the whole story.


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## voodoolamb

With the direction this thread has taken I kinda want to clarify my original post where I said this is something I worry about...

First of all, I worry about everything! My house catching fire while I'm out shopping. A thug breaking in and shooting my dog before stealing my TV. An asteroid falling from the sky and squishing him. I'm high strung. 

While it is very rare, properly contained dogs owned by law abiding citizens have been killed by LE. My aunt's dog who was securely tethered, on her own property, who was shot by an officer when it physically could not have reached said officer. Maybe he didn't see the chain and thought he was loose. Maybe he was scared of dogs. Maybe he was a trigger happy butt wipe. The other one was Sean kendall in SLC just a couple years ago who had his dog securely contained in his fenced back yard while he was at work. An officer entered the back yard through the gate and shot kendall's weimerianer. While searching for a missing child (who was found asleep in his own home). 

These of course are very very rare incidents, but I do wonder how this legislation might effect the outcome when a situation like the above arise. Feels like a double whammy to the poor law abiding citizen who's dogs were where they should be. It sucks that they can loose their "property" without compensation when they did no wrong. That's life I guess. Something I will start to worry about then promptly push out of my mind, because it is out of my control.

I do believe the vast majority of officer shootings of dogs are warranted. I believe the high number of pits killed by officers is because pit bulls at large pose a greater threat than other dog breeds, so of course they are going to have higher death tolls. 

I imagine most officers are good people. Most good people don't wanna kill dogs unless they have to. They simply have to kill pits more often than goldens to protect the public. 

Also, I would like to say "Thank you" to all the LE members of this board for the jobs you do.


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## LuvShepherds

voodoolamb said:


> With the direction this thread has taken I kinda want to clarify my original post where I said this is something I worry about...
> 
> 
> I do believe the vast majority of officer shootings of dogs are warranted. I believe the high number of pits killed by officers is because pit bulls at large pose a greater threat than other dog breeds, so of course they are going to have higher death tolls.
> 
> I imagine most officers are good people. Most good people don't wanna kill dogs unless they have to. They simply have to kill pits more often than goldens to protect the public.
> 
> Also, I would like to say "Thank you" to all the LE members of this board for the jobs you do.


I don't think there is a person reading this who wouldn't worry about it happening if there was a possibility. For most of us, it's not a possibility. I think a lot depends on where you live, who your police are dealing with on a regular basis and department policy. If the police run across a lot of dangerous dogs, or drug houses, or criminals with dogs that bite, they are going to be more inclined to shoot if they feel threatened, which they should do. But, I looked for stats on police shootings of dogs and had trouble finding reputable resoruces. For one thing, most of the dogs shot weren't Weims or elderly labs or sweet family pets. They were mostly pits and pit mixes, like you mentioned. I can draw conclusions from that based only on breed.


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## Jenny720

If the police came to my door I would put my dogs away. It is not a fear of mine about the police crashing through my front door and shooting my dogs- more of fear for me would be more of a home invasion and how fast can I call the police. The majority of police officers want to help people -they have a gift to want to put themselves in harms way to help people every day. I remember my mom telling my brother when he was young and us when he first started driving-"if you ever get pulled over listen the police officer and be respectful " I will tell my kids the same thing- listen to the police officer. People carrying around firearms like a stick of gum is one thing that make it harder for a police to do their job and they have to deal with it every single day. A gun in the hands of nervous person guilty of a crime even a minor crime or high on drugs or a drunk person make for a quick disaster. I cannot deny there are police that should retire, put in prison or find another occupation, just as their are doctors, surgeons, veterinarians, teachers etc. that loose their way, there are also mistakes that do end tragically. This is a very small minority though and not the norm. It is incredibly important for people to realize that. 
The Police make me feel safe and always will. What would the world be without people who want to risk their lives everyday to keep others safe. A very Happy New Years to you all!!!!


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## LuvShepherds

llombardo said:


> Never said any dogs life is worthless.
> 
> As far as the man that killed the dog? He is still sitting in jail and it's because people witnessed what he did. It was after the fact.
> 
> “California law allows a property owner to protect himself and his property — for example, their pet — when another animal tries to attack the property owner or a family member, or the animal attacks their pet,” Welsh wrote. “However, the willful killing of another person’s animal can result in felony animal cruelty charges.”
> 
> "The animal control officer who responded said he didn’t think Barajas’ response was necessary, Welsh said.
> 
> “Officers Morales said he believed the stabbing appeared to have been performed out of spite toward the pit bull’s actions and the neighbor,” Welsh wrote.
> 
> The guy wasn't protecting anything, he is a psycho and that would be the reason he was arrested and put in jail.


From the article linked above: A Riverside man is free on bail after he allegedly slit the throat of a neighbor's pit bull that had killed his poodle.

Does that sound like a psycho?


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## Slamdunc

holland said:


> ....Not an expert ....but they are probably going to flee rather that flea:grin2:


That darn auto correct gets me all the time. Looking on the bright side, at least you read the post.:wink2:

I'm out, I appreciate all those that expressed how they feel. That is the beauty of forums and especially these types of threads. Gives you some insight into members and what they really think.


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## newlie

Before we get too far off topic and wander down an unsafe path, it seems to me that most of us are really saying the same things. We agree that most law enforcement officers are honest, conscientious people who are doing a terribly difficult and dangerous job every day because they want to uphold the law and protect their citizens. I think we all agree that that there are also a small minority, as in any other profession, who should not be in the position they hold. And since none of us are perfect, I think we can all also agree that even with the best intentions, mistakes will sometimes be made. In the rare event a police officer has to draw his gun and kill a dog, I think each incident has to be evaluated on a case by case basis, by those in position of authority. If an owner feels the action was unjustified, I am sure there are avenues of complaint.

By the way, my nephew is in law enforcement and he posted this once. I think it is maybe just the last couple of lines of a longer poem and may have been written for the military, but it still applies and I think gives plenty of room for thought.

"And maybe just remind the few, if ill of us they speak, 
that we are all that stands between the monsters And the weak." 

Michael Marks


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## Jenny720

Well put Newlie and beautiful poem. I also believe in the right to bare arms my post should not be taken in that context to any who read it.


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## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If you are going to add the number of dogs killed by civilians to the pot, why not add the literally thousands of dogs killed by Pits every year? Yep, they see pet dogs and know they can kill them so they do.
> 
> The number of dogs killed by LE and civilians pales in comparison.
> 
> *Where is the outrage for all those innocent dogs*?


With all the outrage for all the little kids, babies, and adults shot in Cleveland and Chicago by members of their own neighborhoods, and race. Over 130 in Cleveland this year, thousands in Chicago. 

But the cops kill someone who probably deserved it and suddenly, there is rioting in the streets.


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## selzer

LuvShepherds said:


> Not funny. A lot of us make typos.


I thought it was. And, yes, I am guilty of a type-o here and there. If we cannot poke fun at an innocent mistake to make a rather grim topic a little lighter, then we are probably going to be nursing an ulcer soon.


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## Thecowboysgirl

LuvShepherds said:


> Not funny. A lot of us make typos.


I didn't think this was funny either. I don't think Slamdunc's typing skills, spelling skills, or device's autocorrect skills have any bearing on anything. 

Where I lived in FL, it took the police 45 mins to get there in an emergency. So I did not expect the police to save me in an emergency. I doubt they could get up here in any huge hurry either.

But once, I really needed the police and they did their job and saved my bacon. I don't think we can afford to judge too harshly people who put their lives on the line every day for perfect strangers.


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## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I didn't think this was funny either. I don't think Slamdunc's typing skills, spelling skills, or device's autocorrect skills have any bearing on anything.
> 
> Where I lived in FL, it took the police 45 mins to get there in an emergency. So I did not expect the police to save me in an emergency. I doubt they could get up here in any huge hurry either.
> 
> But once, I really needed the police and they did their job and saved my bacon. I don't think we can afford to judge too harshly people who put their lives on the line every day for perfect strangers.


Ok, well then, this bothers me. Offends me, I suppose you could say. No wonder half the police officers look like they are wearing shoes that are way too tight all the time. 

If this is just an ordinary Joe, making a joke on their word usage/mistake would have been laughed at or laughed off, and everyone would go on without another thought. 

But because this dude is a cop, suddenly, one must not criticize, question, make a small joke, take a poke at. He is off-limits. Off limits here and everywhere. That's actually a pretty lonely existence you are condemning him to, don'tcha think? 

It is too bad that people just can't be people, but we have to single some people out to be sacrosanct. One of the things humans tend to do when they feel comfortable with a person is to laugh at a minor mistake. It ought to make someone feel accepted and one of the group. Instead it is an offense that requires a rebuke. A much nastier rebuke than the little pointing out of the flea/flee. 

So here we are, for something that was nothing, we have a rebuke, and then I rebuke the rebukers of the original rebuker and everyone walks away all butt-hurt. How silly. 

This reminds me of a ticket I got a number of years ago. I was driving in the city, then drove to my small town where four way stops are more common than street lights. I was petting the dog whose head was coming over the back seat into the front, and I followed the pick up ahead of me right through the stop sign in front of the Jefferson cop. Yep, he didn't let that pass. 

He came up to the door of my car and asked why I thought he was stopping me today. I knew I was caught, so I said probably because I just followed the pick up through that stop sign. Did I have a problem with stop signs??? Yep, same cop got me two years previous for a blvd. stop. Didn't I see him??? And so forth. Whatever. So he wrote on the ticket that I _flagrantly _went through a stop sign. I went to the court to pay the waiver and I sheepishly told the clerk what happened, and she laughed and said she was surprised he could spell flagrant. 

The original offense folks wasn't a capital crime. Lets let people be people whoever the people are.


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## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> I thought it was. And, yes, I am guilty of a type-o here and there. If we cannot poke fun at an innocent mistake to make a rather grim topic a little lighter, then we are probably going to be nursing an ulcer soon.


Honestly, I basically agree with the sentiment here, that just isn't how I took the original comment.

And for the record, I really wasn't trying to insinuate that police officers are excempt from criticism or being off limits. I just thought that particular comment was in poor taste. 

Maybe especially because Slamdunc is one of the people on here who seems to consistently treat other people with respect.....having absolutely nothing to do with him being a cop.

My last comment about not judging too harshly was generally aimed at this whole thread, not that comment in general. At any rate it seems like this thread has maybe outlived its usefulness?? Or I have used up what useful or intelligent things I had to say


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## selzer

It was light-hearted humor, as both were words, there was a smiley afterwards, and it was even more funny because there was a type-o in it, it should have been "...they are probably going to flee rather than flea." instead of "flee rather that flea." 

Ah well, I did read your post as though it was all connected to the poking fun at the spelling error. Sorry about that.


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## Slamdunc

While I appreciate the comments, no one needs to worry about me being offended by some one correcting my grammar or spelling. I'm pretty thick skinned, and I'm sure that I would give an English teacher a stroke.  

It would keep folks pretty busy correcting my grammar, usage, spelling and typos. That darned auto correct feature doesn't help either. I remember sending another K-9 handler a text excited over a new bungee leash that I had gotten for tactical movement. I texted "Hey you have to see this new "ThONG" I got, your gonna really like it." 

The next 12 texts were "THING" THING, NOT THONG." "THING, **** auto correct!!!" It would have been scary if he actually said he wanted to see the "Thong." Even scarier is that we are relentless with each other and he would never let me live that down. No worries with pointing out my typos or gaffes, I'm sure some folks look for those and they should be happy also.


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## selzer

That is too funny. 

In Pride and Prejudice, there is a line, something to the effect, "what are we but to provide sport for the neighbors and to laugh at them in our turn." 

Not sure if that fits completely, but I can just see that thong-comment going down.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> While I appreciate the comments, no one needs to worry about me being offended by some one correcting my grammar or spelling. I'm pretty thick skinned, and I'm sure that I would give an English teacher a stroke.
> 
> It would keep folks pretty busy correcting my grammar, usage, spelling and typos. That darned auto correct feature doesn't help either. I remember sending another K-9 handler a text excited over a new bungee leash that I had gotten for tactical movement. I texted "Hey you have to see this new "ThONG" I got, your gonna really like it."
> 
> The next 12 texts were "THING" THING, NOT THONG." "THING, **** auto correct!!!" It would have been scary if he actually said he wanted to see the "Thong." Even scarier is that we are relentless with each other and he would never let me live that down. No worries with pointing out my typos or gaffes, I'm sure some folks look for those and they should be happy also.


It is only the first day of the year, but I think it will be hard to top this post already and there is a whole year to do it.


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## LuvShepherds

Slamdunc said:


> While I appreciate the comments, no one needs to worry about me being offended by some one correcting my grammar or spelling. I'm pretty thick skinned, and I'm sure that I would give an English teacher a stroke.
> 
> It would keep folks pretty busy correcting my grammar, usage, spelling and typos. That darned auto correct feature doesn't help either. I remember sending another K-9 handler a text excited over a new bungee leash that I had gotten for tactical movement. I texted "Hey you have to see this new "ThONG" I got, your gonna really like it."
> 
> The next 12 texts were "THING" THING, NOT THONG." "THING, **** auto correct!!!" It would have been scary if he actually said he wanted to see the "Thong." Even scarier is that we are relentless with each other and he would never let me live that down. No worries with pointing out my typos or gaffes, I'm sure some folks look for those and they should be happy also.


That is the funniest thing I've read here in months. And I mean thing. I have made some terrible autocorrect typos that were very offensive. That's why I try to read my posts right after they go up here, because we can't correct after ten minutes.


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## Chip18

Deb said:


> For years around here if you build a house if you have a fence you have to have it inside of where the meter is so the person can read it without entering the fenced part of your property.


Yes "this" in my area of "NV" at least. The gas meter is on one side of the house, the electric meter is on the other side, both are in front of the fence. No need for unannounced utility workers to enter the yard. 

The water meters are out by the street but they changed even that. They can "now" read them without getting out of there trucks. No "family pet involvement required. Not the same thing as a "Hot Pursuit" by LE of course but it does show that some "Organizations" would just as soon not get involved with people and there pets.


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## newlie

Slamdunc said:


> While I appreciate the comments, no one needs to worry about me being offended by some one correcting my grammar or spelling. I'm pretty thick skinned, and I'm sure that I would give an English teacher a stroke.
> 
> It would keep folks pretty busy correcting my grammar, usage, spelling and typos. That darned auto correct feature doesn't help either. I remember sending another K-9 handler a text excited over a new bungee leash that I had gotten for tactical movement. I texted "Hey you have to see this new "ThONG" I got, your gonna really like it."
> 
> The next 12 texts were "THING" THING, NOT THONG." "THING, **** auto correct!!!" It would have been scary if he actually said he wanted to see the "Thong." Even scarier is that we are relentless with each other and he would never let me live that down. No worries with pointing out my typos or gaffes, I'm sure some folks look for those and they should be happy also.


I laughed out loud when I saw this last night and have laughed every time I thought about it since. At least, you can take comfort in the fact that you aren't alone, all of us have been caught by Mr. Auto Correct at one time or another and the internet is ripe with funny mistakes that people have made.


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## SuperG

newlie said:


> I laughed out loud when I saw this last night and have laughed every time I thought about it since. At least, you can take comfort in the fact that you aren't alone, all of us have been caught by Mr. Auto Correct at one time or another and the internet is ripe with funny mistakes that people have made.



I had a good laugh as well........imagining the cajones it might take for a decoy to only sport the "bite thong" during bite training........sounds like bit for the lunatics on Jackass TV to try out.......


SuperG


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## newlie

SuperG said:


> I had a good laugh as well........imagining the cajones it might take for a decoy to only sport the "bite thong" during bite training........sounds like bit for the lunatics on Jackass TV to try out.......
> 
> 
> SuperG


Hahahahaha! My eyes are hurting from picturing that!


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## llombardo

LuvShepherds said:


> From the article linked above: A Riverside man is free on bail after he allegedly slit the throat of a neighbor's pit bull that had killed his poodle.
> 
> Does that sound like a psycho?


Yes it does and for those that think his actions were justified, that is just crazy. 

He did not kill the dog during the attack, which would be acceptable and what a normal person might do to save their dog. Taking the dog into the home AFTER the attack to kill the dog while his dog laid there dying is way past crazy. The poodle did not die immediately, so getting it to the vet was a priority not killing the other dog. This man has also threatened the whole family. 

Here is an example...

Your dog attacks a dog. The fight is broken up. Dogs are apart and the other person pulls your dog away from you and shoots it in the head. How would you feel? 

The normal reaction after an attack is to get the dog with injuries to the vet asap, not taking 10 minutes to drag a dog into your home and slit it's throat. 

Yes that is psychotic.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> Yes it does and for those that think his actions were justified, that is just crazy.
> 
> He did not kill the dog during the attack, which would be acceptable and what a normal person might do to save their dog. Taking the dog into the home AFTER the attack to kill the dog while his dog laid there dying is way past crazy. The poodle did not die immediately, so getting it to the vet was a priority not killing the other dog. This man has also threatened the whole family.
> 
> Here is an example...
> 
> Your dog attacks a dog. The fight is broken up. Dogs are apart and the other person pulls your dog away from you and shoots it in the head. How would you feel?
> 
> The normal reaction after an attack is to get the dog with injuries to the vet asap, not taking 10 minutes to drag a dog into your home and slit it's throat.
> 
> Yes that is psychotic.


That is not a similar example. 

The Pit trespassed onto his property and killed his Poodle. While trying to save his Poodle, the Pit attacked him, and after separating the Pit from his victim, the Pit acted aggressively with other innocent bystanders. 

The normal reaction after a Pit attack is to ensure the safety of others.

When my neighbor's Pit mauled her, her boyfriend tossed it out into the street in the middle of summer with children playing. I called 911 not out of concern for a blood covered Pit in the neighborhood but so that there would be no more victims.


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## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is not a similar example.
> 
> The Pit trespassed onto his property and killed his Poodle. While trying to save his Poodle, the Pit attacked him, and after separating the Pit from his victim, the Pit acted aggressively with other innocent bystanders.
> 
> The normal reaction after a Pit attack is to ensure the safety of others.
> 
> When my neighbor's Pit mauled her, her boyfriend tossed it out into the street in the middle of summer with children playing. I called 911 not out of concern for a blood covered Pit in the neighborhood but so that there would be no more victims.


The dog was under control and no longer a threat. The only two out of several witnesses that stated the dog went after the man was the man and his mom. He was able to drag the dog into his home without getting bit though, right?

The owner of the pit, animal control and the police all stated that what was done was not ok. That is why he got arrested, he broke the law. Not to mention he threatened the family of the pit bull. The guy is not stable. 

The comparison is exactly the same. Just put yourself in the attacking dogs shoes. Once the fight is over there us not a need to drag a dog anywhere to kill it. 

I do not believe anyone here would drag someone's dog into their home or away from the owner to kill it. That is very cold and calculating. 

I'm not going to argue the point any longer, I just pray the guy gets found guilty and understands that the law is the law. He broke the law.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> The dog was under control and no longer a threat. The only two out of several witnesses that stated the dog went after the man was the man and his mom. He was able to drag the dog into his home without getting bit though, right?
> 
> The owner of the pit, animal control and the police all stated that what was done was not ok. That is why he got arrested, he broke the law. Not to mention he threatened the family of the pit bull. The guy is not stable.
> 
> The comparison is exactly the same. Just put yourself in the attacking dogs shoes. Once the fight is over there us not a need to drag a dog anywhere to kill it.
> 
> I do not believe anyone here would drag someone's dog into their home or away from the owner to kill it. That is very cold and calculating.
> 
> I'm not going to argue the point any longer, I just pray the guy gets found guilty and understands that the law is the law. He broke the law.


The Pit was not under control except for this man holding it and he had already been bitten by it. There is nothing under control about that.

If any of my dogs trespassed, killed a dog, bit a person, and continued to aggress toward bystanders, if they had to kill it, then so be it, no more innocent victims.

The only psycho would be the one that thinks the Pit should be permitted to continue its attacking and killing rampage unfettered.


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## Castlemaid

I'm going to lock this as it is turning into a pit bull thread, and we have had enough of those. 

We also don't need the racism, the police bashing, and the political overtones many posts contain here. 

Thank you!


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