# I Lost Toby



## JojoTobyMax

My seven year old Toby had lost weight over the past 8 months or so but not to an alarming extent. On July 6 he vomited all of his dinner. He had been outside on a hot day (with shelter, shade and lots of water of course) so I chalked it up to him scarfing down his food too fast on a hot day. On July 7 he did not eat at all and vomited clear fluid indicating a completely empty stomach. I had to work that day and left him in the air conditioned house. I came home and he was drooling clear, snotty fluid and vomiting bile. He was still drinking water and he went outside to pee. I could not entice him to eat anything. He did come up the stairs that night to sleep beside my bed as usual. This was all on a week-end and I could not get ahold of a vet whom I trusted. Sunday morning I carried him outside since he was weakening but he got up and walked around and peed. He followed me in the house which involves climbing some stairs and drank water. I left a message with my vet that I'd like to bring him in on an urgent basis at 8:30 Monday morning and went to work leaving Toby in the air conditioned house again hoping that he would make it that long. He did not appear to be suffering. It was more like his body was shutting down and he was calling it quits. When I got home at 6:15 PM he was dead . I suspect cancer but wonder if it could have been a tape worm or other parasite. It happened so fast. I still have Jojo and Toby's son, Max. All are AKC German Shepherds.


----------



## lzver

So sorry for your loss  Run free Toby.


----------



## JohnD

Very sad...Sorry for your loss.


----------



## kbella999

Sorry for you loss.


----------



## shepherdmom

So sorry for your loss.


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd

Sorry for the loss of your precious Toby, run free sweet boy, run free. :rip:


----------



## kiya

I'm so sorry for your loss.


----------



## selzer

Neither of the other dogs are showing any signs of problems? If the other dogs are showing symptoms, but milder, could be food or parasites or something, and Toby's system couldn't handle it as well. So watch for problems on the others. 

Also, find a 24-hour ER in your area, that you can use for emergencies. Ours only gives enough meds, etc. to make it a couple of days until we can follow up with our regular vet. And that way you have an extra set of eyes looking at the problem. 

My parents cat lost weight slowly like that over the course of 8 or 10 months. They finally diagnosed her with diabetes. By the time they started with insulin, the cat was done. They had to put her down. I haven't really heard of shepherds with diabetes, though. 

Could have been a blockage, could have been many different things. 

So sad about your dog though. I am sorry this happened.


----------



## Wolfgeist

Have you no access to an emergency vet?

Sorry for your loss.


----------



## sitstay

Sorry for your loss.
Sheilah


----------



## JojoTobyMax

Wild Wolf said:


> Have you no access to an emergency vet?
> 
> Sorry for your loss.


Please read my other thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../186238-horror-stories-bad-veterinarians.html

I am having Jojo & Max tested for heartworms and other parasites asap.


----------



## Wolfgeist

JojoTobyMax said:


> Please read my other thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../186238-horror-stories-bad-veterinarians.html
> 
> I am having Jojo & Max tested for heartworms and other parasites asap.


But perhaps going to an E vet can save your pet's life?


----------



## selzer

JojoTobyMax said:


> Please read my other thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../186238-horror-stories-bad-veterinarians.html
> 
> I am having Jojo & Max tested for heartworms and other parasites asap.


I am sorry that you had A bad experience at A vet. You still need to find a 24 hour ER that you are willing to pay if there is an emergency. Having a bad experience at a vet is no excuse for not giving treatment to a dog that needs it.


----------



## JojoTobyMax

selzer said:


> I am sorry that you had A bad experience at A vet. You still need to find a 24 hour ER that you are willing to pay if there is an emergency. Having a bad experience at a vet is no excuse for not giving treatment to a dog that needs it.


Not "A" bad experience. Many bad experiences. I only told the most outrageous story. I don't think this dog could have been saved and I don't believe I caused him extra suffering. I wasn't about to take my beloved Toby to a money grab heartless operation to be abused and given hopeless treatment to try and save him. Among my bad experiences over the years were also two harsh euthanasias.


----------



## Jax08

I am sorry for your loss. But you said he was losing weight over the course of 8 months. It could have been something simple. It's disturbing that you didn't get this animal help at any time during that 8 months.


----------



## JojoTobyMax

Jax08 said:


> I am sorry for your loss. But you said he was losing weight over the course of 8 months. It could have been something simple. It's disturbing that you didn't get this animal help at any time during that 8 months.


You guys should really lighten up a bit. Toby was just running around up at the cabin with a new pit-bull girlfriend. He was also trying to get to Jojo who was in heat. Had the weight loss continued he would have gone to Dr. Molle but it did not seem like an urgent condition. His downturn came on very abruptly at the end. (the pit wasn't mine BTW)


----------



## selzer

JojoTobyMax said:


> My seven year old Toby had lost weight over the past 8 months or so but not to an alarming extent. On July 6 he vomited all of his dinner. He had been outside on a hot day (with shelter, shade and lots of water of course) so I chalked it up to him scarfing down his food too fast on a hot day. On July 7 he did not eat at all and vomited clear fluid indicating a completely empty stomach. I had to work that day and left him in the air conditioned house. I came home and he was drooling clear, snotty fluid and vomiting bile. He was still drinking water and he went outside to pee. I could not entice him to eat anything. He did come up the stairs that night to sleep beside my bed as usual. This was all on a week-end and I could not get ahold of a vet whom I trusted. *Sunday morning I carried him outside since he was weakening* but he got up and walked around and peed. He followed me in the house which involves climbing some stairs and drank water. I left a message with my vet that I'd like to bring him in on an urgent basis at 8:30 Monday morning and went to work leaving Toby in the air conditioned house again hoping that he would make it that long. He did not appear to be suffering.* It was more like his body was shutting down* *and he was calling it quits*. When I got home at 6:15 PM he was dead . I suspect cancer but wonder if it could have been a tape worm or other parasite. It happened so fast. I still have Jojo and Toby's son, Max. All are AKC German Shepherds.


I am sorry, but this is disturbing. If you had to carry the dog outside, it was an emergency. You are a breeder. Breeders should not just let their dogs die because they do not like 24 hour vets. A breeder may have to use a 24 hour vet. Bitches tend to start the process during off-hours. 

I am sorry you let your dog die alone like that instead of taking him to a money grubbing vet. You are allowed to be concerned with money, but vets should not be? I suppose they should work for free, because they love dogs.

For the sake of your living dogs, you need to find a 24-hour vet clinic that you will not mind paying if there is an emergency, before there is an emergency.


----------



## Wolfgeist

selzer said:


> I am sorry, but this is disturbing. If you had to carry the dog outside, it was an emergency. You are a breeder. Breeders should not just let their dogs die because they do not like 24 hour vets. A breeder may have to use a 24 hour vet. Bitches tend to start the process during off-hours.
> 
> I am sorry you let your dog die alone like that instead of taking him to a money grubbing vet. You are allowed to be concerned with money, but vets should not be? I suppose they should work for free, because they love dogs.
> 
> For the sake of your living dogs, you need to find a 24-hour vet clinic that you will not mind paying if there is an emergency, before there is an emergency.


At the first sign of distress, my dog would be at the vet. You have no idea what was wrong with the dog, you cannot possibly say "they couldn't have helped him anyway". I am having a very difficult time swallowing the fact that he was suffering (too weak to walk, vomiting, weight loss, etc) and you left him alone.

I am sorry for being harsh, but I agree with selzer entirely. I am a little speechless at this point to be honest.


----------



## Castlemaid

This thread has been moved to the In Loving Memory Forum - let's keep it as a rememberance of Toby, not one of judgments or what ifs. 

Thank you.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I'm sorry that Toby passed but I can't help but say, he'd have been at any money grubbing vet I could have found May he RIP.


----------



## Loneforce

sorry for your loss .....:rip: Toby


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

RIP sweet Toby. My sincere condolences.


----------



## JojoTobyMax

Thanks. I appreciate the kind words. For the ones that seem to be blaming me for Toby's death I will ask, does this look like a sick dog? His downturn happened in 2 days and if he was that close to death within those two days then I do not believe that he could have been saved.


----------



## LaRen616

I am sorry for Toby, may he rest in peace.


----------



## Lilie

I am sorry for the loss of Toby. I hope others reading this thread will keep in mind how quickly our loved pets can be lost forever. Don't wait, seek treatment.


----------



## wyoung2153

Well for everyone else giving you a hard time I hope they consider the fact that it's easy to say things when you aren't the one in the situation and being that you are a breeder (I'm assuming just from reading people's comments), I would assume that you know when you should take your dogs to the vet, and it's apparent that you called hte one vet that you trusted. I agree with the others that the emergency vet would have been my next move if my regular vet wasn't answering but that's beside the point. For goodness sake people, imagine if you thought everything was ok with your dog and in 2 days it just died.. we don't know who else he talked to or researched or whatever.. give him a break.. save your criticism for a later date when he isn't in the middle of grieving for a lost pup.. if you should so desire to comment..

On that note, I lost my 6 month old puppy recently too (May), didn't see it coming at all, it's tough and I feel for you. Just know that he is in a better place and isn't suffering anymore. Could you possibly take him to the vets and see what they could find, maybe to shed light on what happened?


----------



## Olivers mama

RIP Toby.

The day any of my 4-legged friends have to be carried, it is to carry them to the car & get to the vet. Emergency vets - like many ER MD's - are crapshoots. Having worked in the field, I know some good ones, 1 phenominal one, & a bunch of lousy ones. But if 1 of my own needs help, they get it. At 1 point, I even skipped a house payment for a very sick cat.

These forums are good to get feelings off one's chest. To share good times AND bad. We can all be Monday-morning quarterbacks, I realize that. But that's OK, too.

Still, mine would've seen a doc the day they had to be carried. Just sayin'... There's no way - now - to know whether or not Toby could've been saved. Going down in 2 days doesn't necessarily signal "The End". Sounds like poison or bloat to work that fast. I've experienced both. IMO - make the time to interview with a few ER vet facilities so you can have a good one ready if you need one. EsPECially as a breeder. IMO only.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Well since you brought it up, I don't think I saw anyone "blame" you.

I think, however, being a "breeder", when you have a dog that is not eating, can't hardly walk, vomiting, dripping clear snotty fluid, you'd kinda get an idea something is pretty wrong.

I also saw you post that you were going to have your other dogs tested for HW and parasites? Is Heartworm not prevailant in your area or do you just not test/treat?

I still stand behind my post, no matter what, if I think my dog is sick, and I know my dogs pretty darn well to know when something is not right, I'd go to Joe Blow down the street if I had to. 

RIP Toby


----------



## Lilie

JakodaCD OA said:


> I still stand behind my post, no matter what, if I think my dog is sick, and I know my dogs pretty darn well to know when something is not right, I'd go to Joe Blow down the street if I had to.
> 
> RIP Toby


I agree. I'm pretty sure that as the legal owner of a dog, you have the right to refuse a specific treatment. So if your dog was ill and you took it in to a clinic (that you weren't familar with) and they suggested a treatment that you disagree with, you still have the right to refuse said treatment. 

If I took my dog to a (unfamilar) clinic for a bleeding wound and the vet stated he needed to pull two teeth, I might refuse that treatment and allow the vet to stitch up my dog. Then when I went to my regular vet for a check up on the bleeding wound, I'd let him know about what was said about the teeth. 

Therefore, based on that, I'd take my dog to a voodoo doctor if that was my only choice and my dog was obviously ill.


----------



## Olivers mama

Lilie said:


> If I took my dog to a (unfamilar) clinic for a bleeding wound and the vet stated he needed to pull two teeth, I might refuse that treatment and allow the vet to stitch up my dog. Then when I went to my regular vet for a check up on the bleeding wound, I'd let him know about what was said about the teeth.
> 
> Therefore, based on that, I'd take my dog to a voodoo doctor if that was my only choice and my dog was obviously ill.


:laugh::laugh: LMAO at the wording...

However, I agree 1000% with this. I've never left a message for my vet about a sick fur-friend. If the vet's office is closed, we're off to the ER. Voodoo or not...hahahaha

After all, I wouldn't let my grandma (if I had one) wait until a weekday to see a doc if she's obviously really sick on a Saturday or Sunday. Or a weekday after hours.


----------



## selzer

JojoTobyMax said:


> Thanks. I appreciate the kind words. For the ones that seem to be blaming me for Toby's death I will ask, does this look like a sick dog? His downturn happened in 2 days and if he was that close to death within those two days then I do not believe that he could have been saved.


Our dogs can be running around and happy and in moments be in trouble. They can bloat and the symptoms come up fast. Without immediate treatment, they will usually die. But they do not NEED to die. They can survive a life-threatening condition with proper vet care. They can generally get such care at an ER after hours. Without going to the ER if it is after hours, our dog will die. And will not need to have died. 

Also, a blockage can happen quickly, and it might be a couple of days. But if you wait, for two or three days, some of that intestine might die. And your dog might die. While if you take the dog right in, and they find the problem, they can go in and fix the problem. One of my pups' owners had their pup eat some plastic dog toy pieces, got a blockage, and had the surgery, and their dog is just fine now. If they would have waited, if they did not take the dog in, it would be dead now. 

You do not want to look in the yellow pages for an ER when your dog needs a vet now, so find one now, when your dog is not in trouble. GSDs are not the healthiest of breeds. They are prone to many issues, and some of them are emergencies.


----------



## Lilie

selzer said:


> Also, a blockage can happen quickly, and it might be a couple of days. But if you wait, for two or three days, some of that intestine might die. And your dog might die.


And it would be a horrible, painful way to die.


----------



## Olivers mama

But wouldn't a 'breeder' be aware of said issues? I can understand a Regular Joe missing something, but not one who's supposed to be even more aware...

My very 1st dog was an Irish Setter. (Best dog I ever had.) Bought from a breeder. Before I took him home, the breeder educated me in bloat in this breed. I had to purchase a produce a 'Bloat Kit' before she'd allow the puppy out of her sight. (I was all of 21 "trying" to act like an adult!)

A little more than 2 years later, my big red dog was acting ill. Just before leaving for the ER, I yanked out my kit. Inserted the plastic tubing, funnel facing me. He had no energy to even fight me. Poured in the Di-Gel. Carried him to the back seat of my car...the ER vet kept him overnight to do some ultrasonic & x-ray testing.

I never felt so good: (1) My big red dog pulled thru. (2) No evidence of any further torsion. (3) The ER vet commended me - but more importantly - the breeder, for having taught me. I bought my 2nd puppy from that same breeder, for she obviously cared about the pups.

When we adopted our Rescue GSD, not a word was mentioned about bloat. Too bad, the Rescue people should've been as concerned as was the Setter breeder. But no matter - fresh tubing & Di-Gel are in my kit again. 

Just in case.

It sits in the corner, next to the land-line phone & fire extinguisher.


----------



## KatsMuse

So sorry for your loss! 

The vet I use is a 24/7 clinic and has state-of-the-art facilities to handle every emergency possible.

Everything always seems to happen at night, holidays, or weekends, in my case.

:rip: Toby!


----------



## katieliz

it is astounding to me that a "breeder" could have a dog exhibiting the symptoms described and not understand that there was something seriously wrong necessitating *immediate* emergency veterinary care. 

sorry.


----------



## katieliz

"if he was that close to death within those two days then I do not believe that he could have been saved".

for the educational value of the thread to those who might take the above quote from the OP seriously, please, please...this is SO far from being an accurate statement or correct assumption.


----------



## mebully21

RIP Tobey.

its better to die by being humanely euthanized at the vets office and to not suffer anymore then to spend an entire day suffering and then dying alone..


----------



## JojoTobyMax

I haven't logged in for a few days because of some of the comments. First off I am a "hobby" breeder. I have, on average, one litter per year. I have owned 1-3 German Shepherds for the last 35 years or so. Could Toby have been saved? It's possible. I drove to a nearby animal hospital and they did not have a vet on duty. Imagine that; A hospital with no doctor. They gave me some alternatives but after my horrible experience with taking Jojo to a random emergency facility I opted to leave my regular vet a phone message that I'll be bringing in my sick dog at 8:30 AM with the hope that my dog would make it through the night. He did not. Also I did not have to carry him but did so only to save him the energy required to navigate two sets of stairs to get outside. Once outside he walked around and he followed me back in which involves climbing stairs. He drank some water. He did not appear to be suffering but was vomiting bile and was sick. He was not in pain; He was not panting. Is it really so horrible for a dog to die naturally at home rather then to be put to death while in your arms? My regular vet, who was not available since this was a Sunday did one euthanasia for me in the past and he was very good at it. He came to my home and I put down a blanket outside and I laid down with the dog and held her. In the past I have had two dogs that were put down harshly and without sedation first. One vet was completely heartless and seemed to think it was odd that I was crying. I will try to get a recommendation of an emergency facility for future use from my regular veterinarian. I did what I could for Toby. He was a wonderful dog and I miss him. Thank you all for the kind words.


----------



## wyoung2153

I am glad you came back to clarify things, hopefully it will help the others understand. Again, sorry for your loss. Things will get better on that end and you will just be able to look back on the great memories you had of Toby.


----------



## Lilie

JojoTobyMax said:


> I drove to a nearby animal hospital and they did not have a vet on duty. Imagine that; A hospital with no doctor. They gave me some alternatives but after my horrible experience with taking Jojo to a random emergency facility I opted to leave my regular vet a phone message that *I'll be bringing in my sick dog at 8:30 AM with the hope that my* *dog would make it through the night. He did not.*


 
I'm very sorry, I misunderstood. I thought that you left your dying dog at home and went to work. I thought that you found him at home dead when you returned. That was hard for me to understand. How a person could leave their own animal to die alone and not take him/her ANYWHERE for medical treatment. 

I'm not sure how I misunderstood that. Perhaps it was because of your first post:

_I left a message with my vet that I'd like to bring him in on an urgent basis at 8:30 Monday morning and went to work leaving Toby in the air conditioned house again hoping that he would make it that long. He did not appear to be suffering. It was more like his body was shutting down and he was calling it quits. When I got home at 6:15 PM he was dead_


----------



## LaRen616

Lilie said:


> I'm very sorry, I misunderstood. I thought that you left your dying dog at home and went to work. I thought that you found him at home dead when you returned. That was hard for me to understand. How a person could leave their own animal to die alone and not take him/her ANYWHERE for medical treatment.
> 
> I'm not sure how I misunderstood that. Perhaps it was because of your first post:
> 
> _I left a message with my vet that I'd like to bring him in on an urgent basis at 8:30 Monday morning and went to work leaving Toby in the air conditioned house again hoping that he would make it that long. He did not appear to be suffering. It was more like his body was shutting down and he was calling it quits. When I got home at 6:15 PM he was dead_


Very confusing. :thinking:

If there were any sign that one of my animals were going downhill they would be at the Vet ASAP.


----------



## mebully21

vomiting and being sick IS suffering.. vomiting is a clear sign of something wrong.. you knew the dog was not well....


----------



## Wolfiesmom

I am so sorry for your loss. Run free dear Toby.


----------



## wyoung2153

mebully21 said:


> vomiting and being sick IS suffering.. vomiting is a clear sign of something wrong.. you knew the dog was not well....


While I see your point, vomitting isn't always a red flag.. it is absolutely something that should be monitored but if Titan threw up one morning I wouldn't rush him to the vets. I would see how else he acts. Even if he was a little mopey I would probably wait a few hours to see if it was a bug, or that maybe he ate something his stomach disagreed with. Which I can only assume is what the OP was thinking initially.


----------



## PatchonGSD

JojoTobyMax said:


> He did not appear to be suffering but was vomiting bile and was sick.


I hate to think what your idea of suffering actually IS - if that isnt it. 

Poor Dog.

If you had a child that was vomiting bile and was sick, would you not have taken that child to the E.R?


----------



## Olivers mama

wyoung - are you a friend or relative of the OP's? Just curious...


----------



## selzer

Olivers mama said:


> wyoung - are you a friend or relative of the OP's? Just curious...


I don't think this is fair. 

I too would probably not take off work because my dog barfed. I would not rush my dog to the vet for simple barfing. 

But this was over a couple of days, the guy did say the dog seemed like it was shutting down and giving up. The guy carried the dog downstairs. The dog needed to see a vet. And I really don't feel bad that he refrained from posting for a few days because of our comments. He should have taken the dog to a vet and he knows it.

Do we know how old Toby was?


----------



## wyoung2153

Olivers mama said:


> wyoung - are you a friend or relative of the OP's? Just curious...


No I am not. Though I can understand why or how you would wonder that. I have absolutely no connection to the OP other than this forum.. 

disclaimer: No attitude, holier than thou, or sarcasm tone.. sorry if it gets read the wrong way.

Basically I saw this guy come on here to express his feelings on what happened with his pup.. he was emotional and distraught and just wanted to share with people who might know what he was going through. I do understand that the way things were said on his end made it sound a little fishy and careless so I can see where the opinions came flying as this is a forum and there are many opinions to go around. Sure in almost every post, was "RIP Toby" but then went into attack mode on the poor guy. I guess I am a benefit of the doubt person and have been in situation where I thought I was doing the right thing for me and for my dog but the way I said it came out very very wrong. I am believer in constructive criticism and speaking tactfully to people especially when they are going through a hard time and i didn't see any of that here. I generally give the benefit of the doubt to people especially when I wasn't there and things come across a whole lot different when you try and explain a circumstance to people that weren't there.

I have also been on his end where I posted something on here and was initially ripped to shreds. I won't get off topic on that but I mentioned in my post about smacking Titan's butt for a wrong doing.. or what I perceived as a wrong doing.. and got ripped to shreds and called an animal abuser and told to give Titan to a home that wouldn't beat him. When in reality I didn't beat the dog just lightly patted his but to get his attention when I perceived him doing something that was 100% out of question. (I thought he was attacking my other dog) At the time I was very very ignorant of dog behavior and really didn't understand what he was doing and instead of people educating me on that they decided to pick apart and assume they knew exactly how it went down and like I was a monster. After a huge argument I was able to have people come in and educate me on exactly what he was doing and how to handle it if it happens again.. the correct way to do it. They didn't agree with the butt smack but instead of drilling me they gave me food for thought, links and just educated me on the situation. 

No one has done that here at all. I should say no one but most did not, just went into attack mode instead of educating him on what might have happened and how it may be prevented. 

Again.. not holier than thou, not trying to argue or accuse anyone of anything just completely shocked me that most everyone went into attack mode instead of tactfully speaking to him and maybe even giving him time to really wrap his head around what happened.


----------



## wyoung2153

selzer said:


> I don't think this is fair.
> 
> I too would probably not take off work because my dog barfed. I would not rush my dog to the vet for simple barfing.
> 
> But this was over a couple of days, the guy did say the dog seemed like it was shutting down and giving up. The guy carried the dog downstairs. The dog needed to see a vet. And I really don't feel bad that he refrained from posting for a few days because of our comments. He should have taken the dog to a vet and he knows it.
> 
> Do we know how old Toby was?


This I do agree with, and if that was the reason for asking if I knew him or was related to him, I resent that but to each their own. I assumed it was being asked because I was the only one defending the OP, and more so defending that the OP might have just not said things correctly.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I believe in an earlier post it was mentioned toby was around 8? I could be wrong.

It was also never mentioned in any previous posting that the OP took the dog to the vet, only that they (I'm not sure if this is a he or a she sorry), 'called' their vet for a mon am appt.

Very sad, the dog may not have looked like it was suffering, dogs are pretty stoic and can tolerate/not show alot of pain while really they are suffering.


----------



## wyoung2153

JakodaCD OA said:


> I believe in an earlier post it was mentioned toby was around 8? I could be wrong.
> 
> It was also never mentioned in any previous posting that the OP took the dog to the vet, only that they (I'm not sure if this is a he or a she sorry), 'called' their vet for a mon am appt.
> 
> Very sad, the dog may not have looked like it was suffering, dogs are pretty stoic and can tolerate/not show alot of pain while really they are suffering.


Yeah from my understanding too, the OP did not take him to the vet but did make the appointment because he didn't appear to be suffering but was vomiting..

dogs are pretty resilient.. it is very possible he didn't appear to be actually suffering enough that shot up red flags for an ER visit.


----------



## Lilie

wyoung2153 said:


> No one has done that here at all. I should say no one but most did not, just went into attack mode instead of *educating him* on what might have happened and how it may be prevented.


The OP stated; 

_First off I am a "hobby" breeder. I have, on average, one litter per year. I have owned 1-3 German Shepherds for the last 35 years or so._

At the point that they felt their dog was 'shutting down' would have been the time to become educated by a vet. 

I think anybody who has owned, loved and cared for an animal over a life time, have experianced the pain of finding out our beloved pet passed away while we were gone from home. 

We've all felt silly for rushing our pets to the vet over something minor as well. Hec, I had a small mix who, late at night, developed a lump in her stomach. I dragged hubby out of bed and rushed her to the ER vet, only to find out it was kibble she ate. 

I am saddened by the passing of the OP's dog. I truly am. But nothing was learned from it and that causes me a greater saddness.


----------



## selzer

Wyoung, this is my first post on this thread, I was not attacking the OP.



selzer said:


> Neither of the other dogs are showing any signs of problems? If the other dogs are showing symptoms, but milder, could be food or parasites or something, and Toby's system couldn't handle it as well. So watch for problems on the others.
> 
> Also, find a 24-hour ER in your area, that you can use for emergencies. Ours only gives enough meds, etc. to make it a couple of days until we can follow up with our regular vet. And that way you have an extra set of eyes looking at the problem.
> 
> My parents cat lost weight slowly like that over the course of 8 or 10 months. They finally diagnosed her with diabetes. By the time they started with insulin, the cat was done. They had to put her down. I haven't really heard of shepherds with diabetes, though.
> 
> Could have been a blockage, could have been many different things.
> 
> So sad about your dog though. I am sorry this happened.


After he let on that it is his disgust or mistrust of ER-vets, that prevented him to take care of his dog, I think attitudes changed. Mine did. And, he is a breeder -- he sent the link about the c-section cost. A breeder should really know when a dog is in trouble, when they need to see a vet now, and they should just do it. I guess I would hold them to a higher standard, maybe that is wrong.


----------



## wyoung2153

Lilie said:


> The OP stated;
> 
> _First off I am a "hobby" breeder. I have, on average, one litter per year. I have owned 1-3 German Shepherds for the last 35 years or so._
> 
> At the point that they felt their dog was 'shutting down' would have been the time to become educated by a vet.
> 
> I think anybody who has owned, loved and cared for an animal over a life time, have experianced the pain of finding out our beloved pet passed away while we were gone from home.
> 
> We've all felt silly for rushing our pets to the vet over something minor as well. Hec, I had a small mix who, late at night, developed a lump in her stomach. I dragged hubby out of bed and rushed her to the ER vet, only to find out it was kibble she ate.
> 
> I am saddened by the passing of the OP's dog. I truly am. But nothing was learned from it and that causes me a greater saddness.


Oh believe me.. I rung up my vet bill on silly little things.. thought Oh Gosh his poo's runny.. vet! only to find nothing wrong, fed him pumpkin and he was golden. And I am in no way saying that he was right in the sense of not taking him to the vets.. I was only on "defense" mode because I have been there where I explained things poorly and had to reiterate later what I really meant. And maybe I was out of line.. but I have been on the receiving end and am not generally known for keeping my mouth shut. 

I also am saddened but the whole situation. To me, the minute I have to call a vet on the weekend even for advice, I would take them in to an ER. I just hope that it's a lesson learned in future situations should they arise again.. and I certainly hope not. 



selzer said:


> Wyoung, this is my first post on this thread, I was not attacking the OP.
> 
> 
> 
> After he let on that it is his disgust or mistrust of ER-vets, that prevented him to take care of his dog, I think attitudes changed. Mine did. And, he is a breeder -- he sent the link about the c-section cost. A breeder should really know when a dog is in trouble, when they need to see a vet now, and they should just do it. I guess I would hold them to a higher standard, maybe that is wrong.


No I absolutely agree.. honestly I must have missed the part about the "hobby" breeding I only read breeder.. so I assumed he was in the business. I honestly agree with most of the comments made.. my only reason for "defending" was the lack of tact. He's not going to get anything from people coming at him that way and if anyone's going to have any impact on him.. and to be honest I would hope that he will come back and clarify things a little better because there a whole lot of questions right now that people can't understand without more clarification.


----------



## Olivers mama

Sorry if it is not "fair" for me to ask the relation question. I'm always curious, so I ask. I'm an Aires, so I have a big mouth. And - I have found - my mouth has gotten bigger the last 3 years I've been fighting this darn cancer.

Still, it's a viable question, IMO. 99% of the posters, while responding with a 'RIP" for Toby - including me - have wondered why he never saw a vet. Only a couple have been 100% defensive about his actions, no questions asked.

These forums are for information, education, sharing, & letting loose with one's emotions. If you're gonna post that you profess to love dogs & then refuse to go to ER when a dog is sick, that you'd rather wait for your regular vet during the week...well, you're not gonna get a lot of positive reactions from a dog-loving forum.

I have been slammed so many times, I've lost count (mostly on another forum). I'm 57 - people do things a lot differently now then they did when I was in my 20's. I had a passerby call Animal Control on me for using a choke collar on my GSD. Animal Control was called on me 30 years ago - they saw a dog "hanging" in my living room. When AC got there, the guy burst into laughter. I had Brandy on the grooming table - head in the noose - being groomed for a dog show! it's amazing what some people can complain about. So I understand being "slammed".

My points to the OP were 2-fold: I felt the dog should have seen a doctor & I felt he should've known that, whether he be a "one-litter-a-year breeder" or private owner.

The fact that he's "stayed away" because of all the "comments", well, that's his choice. Does that mean no one can speak their thoughts? And, if I ask if you're related, it's because you've not only backed him, but slammed all those who questioned his behavior. Like you jumped on my comment. Posters can't be choosy & accept only good comments. If I have to take the good with the bad, so too, should others. 
Unfortunately - because of my big mouth - I seldom have people rush in for my defense. However, I do know when it's time to move on. And for me, I guess that time is now.


----------



## wyoung2153

No I didn't think it was unfair that you asked. It made sense to me why you would have. And I never said I disagreed with the general thoughts of everyone at all.. my only thing that I wanted to point out was to not accuse and attack and instead be more tactful and ask questions in order to fully understand what happened and possibly use it to educate the OP.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I think I asked a question earlier on and either missed,or didn't receive an answer.

To the OP, you said you were taking your other two in for HW and parasite testing, do you not do annual HW testing in your area? How did they make out?


----------



## Lilie

Unfortunately - because of my big mouth - I seldom have people rush in for my defense. However said:


> Sorry, you can't go anywhere. Us 'elderly' gotta stick together.


----------



## Olivers mama

I'm "old", not "elderly", Lil!


----------



## GregK

I'm sorry for your loss.


----------



## JojoTobyMax

Hi all, I will be glad to answer any direct questions. I have not done annual heart worm testing both out of ignorance and because I have never had a dog contract heartworms. That will be done in the future. It also was never mentioned to me by a vet. Toby did not go to a vet for many reasons already stated. Had he been injured or been in distress he would have been rushed to an animal hospital. I will be getting a referral for an emergency facility as soon as I see my regular vet. I am still mourning the loss of one of my finest dogs, and I have owned quite a few. I still have Jojo & Max. Max is the off-spring of Toby & Jojo and I am now looking for a "girlfriend" for him. Toby & Jojo were a wonderful breeding pair and Jojo gave me a lot of great puppies. She no longer has a stud but since Jojo is now over 5 years old it is time to stop breeding her. Max is now enjoying being the alpha male, the leader of the pack. Both of these dogs are awesome and very protective of me & our home. Some of the comments on this thread are hurtful. Some have merit and some don't. Just remember that hindsight is always 20/20. I'm glad that no one has come out against hobby breeding. Try posting an ad for puppies on Craigslist and look at the lashing you get for "bringing more dogs into this world" or "stamping out backyard breeders". I do it mainly because I enjoy it. The AKC is currently circulating an on-line petition to protect the rights of "hobby breeders".


----------



## Lilie

JojoTobyMax said:


> . I'm glad that no one has come out against hobby breeding. Try posting an ad for puppies on Craigslist and look at the lashing you get for "bringing more dogs into this world" or "stamping out backyard breeders". I do it mainly because I enjoy it.


This thread is not about your breeding skills. This thread is about the death of your dog. Which is why the attempt was made to remain focused on the death of your dog.


----------



## JojoTobyMax

Lilie said:


> This thread is not about your breeding skills. This thread is about the death of your dog. Which is why the attempt was made to remain focused on the death of your dog.


OK, good, because the AKC supports us and I'd be disappointed if the general mindset on this forum was against small breeders. Part of the e-mail from the AKC: 

Voice your support for responsible small breeders! The American Kennel Club's Join With the AKC to Protect Responsible Small Breeders petition has more than 48,000 signatures! Help us reach 50,000 voices strong today!

We are just days away from the end of the public comment period regarding the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) new proposed regulations which would create harsh and unintended consequences for responsible small and hobby breeders in this country.


----------



## Jax08

Nice deflection.


----------



## Lilie

JojoTobyMax said:


> OK, good, because the AKC supports us and I'd be disappointed if the general mindset on this forum was against small breeders.


If you want to discuss your breeding skills, I suggest you start a new thread.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Yes, I'm going OT,ok I'll say it, won't make me popular but here goes, I would not support a 'breeder' as yourself. 

I would think even the most ignorant of breeders would know about HW testing. How do you know none of the dogs you have/produced had/have HW if you've never tested them? If your vet never suggested it, it's time for a new vet.

I am all for responsible small/hobby breeders, ignorance has no place in breeding.


----------



## Jax08

Jean - I don't think that opinion makes you unpopular at all! In fact, I bet most of us would agree.


----------



## Lilie

JakodaCD OA said:


> Yes, I'm going OT,ok I'll say it, won't make me popular but here goes, I would not support a 'breeder' as yourself.


Not only do I agree with you, but if you lived near me I'd invite you over for adult beverages and take out. (Take out is safer since I don't cook.)


----------



## Lilie

JojoTobyMax said:


> Voice your support for *responsible* small breeders! The American Kennel Club's Join With the AKC to Protect Responsible Small Breeders petition has more than 48,000 signatures! Help us reach 50,000 voices strong today!


Sorry, I was unable to find any information out regarding this document on the web site. Not saying it's not there, I just can't find it. 

However, I did find something I found interesting, and I'm curious - since you're a responsible breeder, have you done any of the following:



Has a history of at least 5 years involvement with AKC events.
Earned at least 4 Conformation, Performance or Companion event titles on dogs they bred/co-bred.
Member of an AKC club.
Certifies that applicable health screens are performed on your breeding stock as recommended by the Parent Club.
Demonstrates a commitment to ensuring 100% of the puppies produced are AKC registered.


----------



## selzer

JakodaCD OA said:


> Yes, I'm going OT,ok I'll say it, won't make me popular but here goes, I would not support a 'breeder' as yourself.
> 
> I would think even the most ignorant of breeders would know about HW testing. How do you know none of the dogs you have/produced had/have HW if you've never tested them? If your vet never suggested it, it's time for a new vet.
> 
> I am all for responsible small/hobby breeders, ignorance has no place in breeding.


Diane is my hero!!!

Only you forgot that a responsible breeder knows when to call in a vet and does it. 

If, this fella becomes the poster child for hobby breeders / or small responsible breeders, than we should just hang it up and hope the rules pass. Well, we should if those rules would affect him, which unfortunately, they will not.


----------



## Jax08

And Diane...I have no idea why I called you Jean so must be it's time to shut off this computer!


----------



## Lilie

Jax08 said:


> And Diane...I have no idea why I called you Jean so must be it's time to shut off this computer!


LOL! You had me confused!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

michelle no problem, I can relate to "friday" certainly being my day for messing things up..


----------



## JojoTobyMax

Sounds like this may not be a very friendly forum but I will give it some time since I love German Shepherd Dogs like the rest of you.

As far as the heartworm thing, I am well aware of the preventative pills but after researching it I found that most dog owners do not use the pills. Not one of the dozen or so veterinarians whom I have seen over the years mentioned anything about the need for annual heartworm testing. I stumbled onto that while researching what could be going on with Toby.

I have been breeding for many years. I encourage feedback from my customers and I get many positive follow-up e-mails from satisfied buyers. I also get a lot of referrals. I guess it is just too bad if I take away some of the business from those charging thousands of dollars for puppies by making them more affordable and every bit as good!

As far as the AKC petition to protect the rights of small breeders, no I did not make that up! Here is the e-mail and then the petition.

Dear CARL CHAMBERLAIN,​ Voice your support for responsible small breeders! The American Kennel Club's Join With the AKC to Protect Responsible Small Breeders petition has more than 48,000 signatures! Help us reach 50,000 voices strong today!​ We are just days away from the end of the public comment period regarding the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) new proposed regulations which would create harsh and unintended consequences for responsible small and hobby breeders in this country.​ _A big "Thank You" to all who signed AKC's petition and sent comments to USDA's Animal Plant and Health Inspection Service_​ If you have not yet done so, please join us in supporting responsible breeders and giving the American public access to acquiring happy, healthy puppies by signing AKC's petition and sending comments to USDA/APHIS before July 16th.​ How to Sign AKC's Petition:
Visit www.akc.org/petition and click "Sign Here Now!"​ How to Send Comments to the USDA/APHIS:
Learn how at the AKC Government Relations USDA/APHIS Resource Page here​ The AKC recommends that you share your concerns directly through the USDA/APHIS comment site. Respectful, constructive comments that clearly outline your own concerns, experiences, insights and any alternative recommendations are the most effective way to impact the policy of the proposed rule. These concerns will be read by USDA/APHIS as it considers how to proceed. Comments will be public. Comments should be submitted to the USDA/APHIS directly, either:

Post Comments Online here 

Or Mail Comments to:
Docket No. APHIS-2011-0003-2011-0003
Regulatory Analysis and Development
PPD, APHIS, Station 3A-03.8
4700 River Road, Unit 118 
Riverdale, MD 20737-1238​ This resource page will help you understand what the proposed regulations mean to you, how to submit a comment to USDA/APHIS, and tips on how to prepare your comments before July 16th.​ If you have any questions or comments regarding the petition or the proposed rule change, please contact our Government Relations Department at 919-816-3720 or [email protected].​ Sincerely,
<img alt="Alan Kalter">
Alan Kalter
Chairman of the Board 
American Kennel Club




And the petition:

​*Join With the AKC to Protect Responsible Small Breeders*

The American Kennel Club has created the _Join With the AKC to Protect Responsible Small Breeders_ petition in response to the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) new proposed regulations which would create harsh and unintended consequences for responsible small and hobby breeders in this country.
Please join us by signing the _Join With the AKC to Protect Responsible Small Breeders_ petition before August 13. The petition, along with AKC’s comments on the proposed rule change, will be sent to the USDA.
 *Join With the AKC to Protect Responsible Small Breeders — Petition*​ We join with the American Kennel Club to express our concerns about the harsh and unintended consequences that the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s proposed regulations (RIN 0579-AD57) to redefine “retail pet store” would have on responsible small and hobby breeders. Currently, responsible small and hobby breeders across this country provide Americans with healthy, well-socialized, loving family companions.
Under the proposed regulations, breeders or others who sell a puppy sight unseen, by any means including online, by mail or by telephone, would now be regulated in accordance with USDA standards, if you own more than four "breeding females" of any of the listed species, including dogs and cats. The effect of these proposed regulations would be to take away the public’s opportunity to obtain puppies from those breeders, who in many cases have dedicated their lives to breeding for health, breed type and temperament.
As the leader and expert in breeding and maintaining dogs for more than a century, the AKC supports responsible breeders and dog owners through its educational and inspections programs. As the only purebred dog registry with a care and conditions of dogs policy – which we have recently enhanced to create a comprehensive policy for the welfare of all dogs – more than 55,000 inspections have been conducted since 2000. We know through experience that regardless of the number of dogs owned or the manner in which breeders interact with potential puppy buyers, a “one size fits all” breeder regulation is unfair and unenforceable.
We sign this petition in order to alert the USDA that a “one size fits all breeders” type of regulation is not in the best interest of dogs and/or consumers in this country. We stand in support of the AKC’s comments to the USDA in opposition to the proposed regulations as written. In so doing, we demonstrate our commitment to the continued breeding of dogs by responsible small and hobby breeders throughout this country.
 New! AKC’s Resource Page for USDA/APHIS Regulations
Learn more about the proposed USDA regulation here


----------



## JojoTobyMax

Selzer. know nothing about me. Lillie, you too. 6,000 posts in 2 years ..... You also know nothing about me or my fine animals.


----------



## qbchottu

JojoTobyMax said:


> As far as the heartworm thing, I am well aware of the preventative pills but after researching it I found that most dog owners do not use the pills. *Not one of the dozen or so veterinarians whom I have seen over the years mentioned anything about the need for annual heartworm testing.* I stumbled onto that while researching what could be going on with Toby.


How is this possible? I've had 15+ vets over the last 10 years and EVERY single one has mentioned annual heartworm testing at least once during our conversation. Most times, it will be mentioned multiple times and someone else like front desk or the tech will mention it as well. Never mind all the posters, handouts and signs about heartworm testing plastered all over the walls...



> I have been breeding for many years. I encourage feedback from my customers and I get many positive follow-up e-mails from satisfied buyers. I also get a lot of referrals. *I guess it is just too bad if I take away some of the business from those charging thousands of dollars for puppies by making them more affordable and every bit as good*!


I don't understand why you are bringing your breeding and politics into this? What does that have to do with a thread about your dog's death?

But since you seem intent on having this conversation..... How do you know your dogs are _just_ as good? How do you select your breeding pairs? Do you think that repeating the same breeding over and over is contributing anything significant to the breed? What is your goal in breeding? To sell puppies, to better the breed, to keep something behind?


----------



## JojoTobyMax

Also, the proper way to participate on a forum is to address the poster directly by using their screen name or real name. Mine is Carl. It's kind of rude to talk amongst yourselves on my thread about "this guy"!

"To sell puppies, to better the breed, to keep something behind?" All three and for the enjoyment of having and loving the puppies. My puppies get love and lots of human contact and interaction from the day they are born until they go up for sale at 8 weeks of age.

I bring up my breeding here because there have been a lot of negative comments on this thread. I'm trying to get a feel of the mind set on this forum. Toby died. It was not my fault. Thank you to all who have shared kind words.


----------



## Lilie

JojoTobyMax said:


> Selzer you know nothing about me. *Lillie, you too. 6,000 posts in 2 years *You also know nothing about me or my fine animals.


I'm not exactly sure what you are saying. I can only guess. However, I do consider it a personal attack, which is against forum rules. I suggest you read through the forum rules. 

I will say, that I'm pretty stoked that I'm mentioned in the same post as Selzer, who I consider a very knowledgeable, responsible breeder. 

As you continue down the rabbit trail of excuses, could you please take time to read my previous post regarding a statement by AKC which provides goals to be met by 'responsible breeders'? 

You are correct I know very little about you and your breeding practices. As you are a self proclaimed responsible hobby breeder, I think it would be educational to learn how you've come to that conclusion.


----------



## JojoTobyMax

One person makes a favorable post and gets accused of being my friend or relative. This thread is a mess. I am done with it. 

Lilie, I will not discuss my breeding with you because it will never be up to your standards. You have filled this thread with caustic comments that just drew more caustic responses. You have almost 7,000 posts in 2 years. Maybe that means that you should start thinking before spewing hateful posts.

Toby died and it was not my fault.


----------



## Lilie

JojoTobyMax said:


> Lilie, I will not discuss my breeding with you because it will never be up to your standards. You have filled this thread with caustic comments that just drew more caustic responses. You have almost 7,000 posts in 2 years. Maybe that means that you should start thinking before spewing hateful posts.
> 
> Toby died and it was not my fault.


Oh wow, Carl, I think you've got me all wrong. I'm not a breeder. I haven't posted my standards regarding breeding. I simply posted AKC's standards and questioned where your breeding ethics fell into that line. I have my suspicions. 

You wanted to change this thread from the focusing on the death of your dog, to your breeding abilities. I suggested starting a new thread, but for what ever reason you didn't want to. Thats up to you, makes me no difference at all. Based totally on your own posts, I've already formed my opinions on your ability to take care of your dogs. No reason for you to call me names. It's just an opinion. It's not like I'd ever be one of your puppy buyers. No harm, no foul.


----------



## VSLATER

R.I.P. Toby I intended to write a rant about sick dogs and not providing vet care, but unfortunately it won't help Toby. I am sorry for your loss.


----------



## JojoTobyMax

" It's not like I'd ever be one of your puppy buyers."

Another nasty post and perfect example of thinking before you click the submit box.


----------



## NewbieShepherdGirl

JojoTobyMax said:


> " It's not like I'd ever be one of your puppy buyers."
> 
> Another nasty post and perfect example of thinking before you click the submit box.



I'm sorry but her quote is not NEARLY as rude/inappropriate as the post that you made addressing her and selzer.


----------



## Lilie

JojoTobyMax said:


> " It's not like I'd ever be one of your puppy buyers."
> 
> Another nasty post and perfect example of thinking before you click the submit box.


I was thinking, Carl. Very, very carefully.


----------



## Wolfgeist

You should be ashamed of yourself, "Carl".

Moderator, please lock this thread.


----------



## selzer

Carl, I just want this to be real clear, I NEVER shut up because someone tells me to. 

But I have a question for you: Why are you so afraid of these new rules? We have been aware of this for weeks and most of us have made our decisions, signed and/or commented, so you really do not need to worry yourself over that. But this legislation should not affect you at all. You have just one bitch right now, and even with two, you will not fall under the new rules, unless you are selling sight unseen over the internet. And while I really do not have a problem with that, I really do not see the need of it for someone with one producing bitch. You are selling pups cheap, so you don't have to go far to find buyers. So why is this a big deal for you? I am truly curious.

I understand that many who signed the petition and are against the legislation are not breeders at all. But I want to know what your problem is with it?


----------

