# "attack" training



## 1337f0x (Feb 21, 2012)

Just for my own curiosity (not interested in this type of training) but how does it work?

The dog gets trained so that if the owner instructs the dog to attack, it attacks. But ONLY the owner's instruction.

Or if anyone says it, the dog will react?


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

1337f0x said:


> Or if anyone says it, the dog will react?


No, the dog shouldn't react.


----------



## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

What do you mean by attack training? Personal protection? Schutzhund?


----------



## nmlvaio101 (Apr 28, 2011)

My significant other and I debated about this. Protection is unregulated and different training across the board with no standard. Shutz is a competion slash sport which is great bonding between you and your gsd where protection (in our case) would required 4months boot camped like training where the trainer have free range to do anything. In either case, be careful bc now you will have a loaded dog that in a any situation can be dangers bc you would truly have a dangerous animal. I say this because I know a guy who takes his gsd and shows him off and saying he is trained in protection to everyone and one day he hurt another owners dog and thehandler during the scuffle. Well, to say it simple it ended in court and bc he had a trained protection dog it was his neglengence that he knew he had a dangerous gsd and didn't take full measure to insure this would not happen. Just like have those beware of dog signs vs dog on property.


----------



## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm not familiar with how protection training is done, but I've heard that it can be trained as a game for the dog rather than teaching him to be truly aggressive. So that the bite and hold on the attacker's arm is kind of like a tug game for the dog, and the dog must have a solid obedience to start and stop on command. Maybe someone else can confirm this?


----------



## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Yes true to a point. 
Some dogs bite "for real" and some dogs bite because it's a game


----------



## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Yes true to a point.
> Some dogs bite "for real" and some dogs bite because it's a game


And for some dogs it starts as a game and is later translated into real bites, either by sport or by temperament.


----------



## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I would consider any dog a "loaded gun". If a dog has bad nerves, it may bite. My girl does stellar protection work in schutzhund, but she would never bite somebody in the real world. She is certainly not dangerous to take around to new people - she LOVES people.


----------



## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Yep well-said
My male used to bite for fun, but he isn't playing around anymore and bites seriously. Trying to catch my female up to him now. She still likes her flirt pole and thinks the sleeve is boring


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Shaina said:


> I would consider any dog a "loaded gun". If a dog has bad nerves, it may bite. My girl does stellar protection work in schutzhund, but she would never bite somebody in the real world. She is certainly not dangerous to take around to new people - *she LOVES people*.


 
How about a new person wearing a sleeve? Heh! Heh! Just kidding!


----------



## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Ok.. come into my house wearing a sleeve and its game on  Good thing her "OUST" is reliable!


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

A dog with bad nerves is more of a loaded gun than a loaded gun is.


----------



## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

Im with you Shaina, when we put on the harness or agitation collar and the sleeve comes out then its time to bite. Other than that biteing is not acceptable. Most of our bitework is done with family members as decoys, it is all a game.


----------



## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

nmlvaio101 said:


> I know a guy who takes his gsd and shows him off and saying he is trained in protection to everyone and one day he hurt another owners dog and thehandler during the scuffle. Well, to say it simple it ended in court and bc he had a trained protection dog it was his neglengence that he knew he had a dangerous gsd and didn't take full measure to insure this would not happen. Just like have those beware of dog signs vs dog on property.


Most dogs that attack are a liability issue....unless they attack without biting hard enough to break the skin which is a definite plus in the case of a misunderstanding. That was what I liked about a dog I had years ago.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

1337f0x said:


> Just for my own curiosity (not interested in this type of training) but how does it work?
> 
> The dog gets trained so that if the owner instructs the dog to attack, it attacks. But ONLY the owner's instruction.
> 
> Or if anyone says it, the dog will react?


My friend had a PP dog that was trained to attack on command but also on certain actions such as someone grabbing her in an aggressive manner. It saved her life one night and a guy who jumped into her truck left without part of his ear. He was very easy to find in the ER. He was supposed to only grab the arm and hold but the guys head was closest at that point. This was a highly trained dog with many, many blue ribbons hanging on her wall.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very few people on this board can tell you how an attack dog works, because very few have done this type of training. But for practical purposes sport training can teach a dog a controlled bite. Also, attack training can only be effectively done with dogs that have the genetics.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Very few people on this board can tell you how an attack dog works, because very few have done this type of training. But for practical purposes sport training can teach a dog a controlled bite. Also, attack training can only be effectively done with dogs that have the genetics.


Exactly


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Schutzhund is now no longer......The sport title is now defined as IPO.
The problem is.....the actual "sport" of Schutzhund/IPO was never intended to be a "game".
Controlled biting is a great term to express what the "bitework" aspect of the sport should be.
Protection dogs and Sport dogs are as different as apples and oranges.....some have the "dynamics and genetics" to be good prospects for both.....but not all.
Teaching a dog to bite a human....is not a "game".


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

robinhuerta said:


> Teaching a dog to bite a human....is not a "game".


Agreed!!!!


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

For the OP..... Good protection work will not give you a dog that bites inappropriately. The problem is learning to see what is good work and what is bad, and then finding it.
Do you have a club or trainer near you?

Personally, if my dog bites someone who is a threat to me or my family.... I hope he breaks the offender's arm.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> Schutzhund is now no longer......The sport title is now defined as IPO.
> The problem is.....the actual "sport" of Schutzhund/IPO was never intended to be a "game".
> Controlled biting is a great term to express what the "bitework" aspect of the sport should be.
> Protection dogs and Sport dogs are as different as apples and oranges.....some have the "dynamics and genetics" to be good prospects for both.....but not all.
> Teaching a dog to bite a human....is not a "game".


 
Actually it seems like it is to at least some dogs. I never thought so but after working with my local Sch club for a few months and getting into the bite work as well as OB and tracking i think that I have sort of changed my mind at least for some dogs anyway.

The idea (so I am told) is that they work the dogs in "Prey drive" and not "defense drive" (where the intent is to convice the dog that he is in harms way). The sleeve is seemingly looked on as a large "Tug toy" in this approach. All of the attention is on the sleeve and not the decoy.

In fact during the biting on the sleeve the decoy will actually pet the dog on the head with no aggressive reaction from the dog! And once the sleeve is off, the dogs are all (except for one) very friendly with all of the decoys.

So, as a very inexperienced ScH handler, I don't know if I would consider (as I always used to) this approach to be "training a dog to bite a human being". At the same time I am not sure either that this is really training a GSD to be any better at "protecting" his owner other than a little practice at a "Full" bite.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

There are a lot of different ways to go about the training, dogs will often be started out in prey drive, so that they can gain confidence and become comfortable with what is asked of them. Then as they mature more pressure is put on the dog to test it, and to bring the defense out. 

Some dogs do not have solid enough genetics to work in defense, being in a threatening situation will shut them down. Since most people train in Schutzhund as a fun thing to do with their dogs, they only work their dogs in prey to get through the routine. 

But a good trainer can read a dog well, and know just how to use the dog's prey drives and defensive drives to bring the desired result out, whether it is teaching the dog a routine for a sport, or building up a dog for serious protection work.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Lucia above gave some good examples and information.

I like to look at schutzhund/IPO training as what it was intended, not what it has become. I don't train it like a "game" because I don't want my dog to see it as that (with Zefra, I don't think she does see it as a "game" though, but Stark did/does).

With my youngest dog, who is 11 months old now. I have been told that she is/will be a very serious more "real" dog than most. At this point in her training she sees the fight as her reward, not the bite itself. She likes to engage the helper/decoy (jumps up in his face, eye contact that never waivers, likes to be eye level, etc.) but is the most social dog I have ever seen. 

As soon as someone looks at her (outside of training) her whole body convulses in wiggles starting from her tail right to her nose! Super social girl who just adores people and especially children!

There are some excellent clubs in your area that I can recommend you checking out if you want to see this in person and talk to others about it. Just PM me and I will give you some names to contact. It is super fun and EXTREMELY interesting to watch and actually speak to those in the sport.

You are also more than welcome to come and watch my two being worked - VERY different training techniques and results.


----------



## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

My female is more helper focused than sleeve focused, and we have had to go back and train her to carry the sleeve and calm herself down because she will fight for her life. A good dog will be able to go back and work in prey, but not back down when worked in defense. When she is being worked, if I out her and the helper moves away from the sleeve, she follows the helper.. some dogs would stay with the sleeve. I have seen a few nervy dogs only want the sleeve and try to avoid the helper/take the sleeve off the field because that is their reward. That's not how it is supposed to work.

My girl though, as I posted earlier, loves people and is very social.


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Shaina said:


> Good thing her "OUST" is reliable!


Uhm, Oust is an air freshener .










The German command for out is Aus.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Comaster....You narrative illustrates my frustration sometime. As you said, you had one conception of Sch, and therefore Sch dogs, before you partook. Now that you are involved you see another totally different dynamic in what the dog is doing. But how many people have that attitude that Sch is really attack training and therefore something to be shunned and not representative of good safe temperament. The fact is these people really don't know what they are talking about, and until they get involved, or are willing to listen (and most won't listen cause they know everything already) they go around advancing misinformation. It makes it difficult to go to a breed show and here so much misinformation spread about any GS in its natural element.
This isn't a negative post to you Codmaster, just an observation of attitudes and thoughts that lead to breeding practices that have led to the weakening of the breed.


----------



## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

bocron said:


> Uhm, Oust is an air freshener .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL!! Sorry, I don't type in German  I tend to type what I pronounce. Thanks for calling me out! Hahaha.

Though, if we want to be technical..



> *Definition of OUST*
> 
> transitive verb
> 1
> _a_ *:* to remove from or dispossess of property or position by legal action, by force, or by the compulsion of necessity


We'll just pretend that's what I meant.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

If I wanted my dog to play a game, I'd join the local Agility club instead of driving 3 hours to do Schutzhund. If the dog is not reaching his full genetic potential as a breed and as a specie, then it doesn't worth the effort.


----------

