# Koko was in a fight this week - at my last straw



## Ribrustler (May 5, 2011)

Koko escaped our yard this week and ended up in a fight with a male Lab. 
My daughter informed me that Koko had escaped out the back gate and she was heading to a private lane area so I ran around the house and starting calling for her, I ended up getting her into a sit position in my back neighbors drive way and had her focus towards me, but down the road about 60 yards away was a woman walking her male lab - a bichon friese and a 3 year old boy- I knew in my heart instantly that this was going to be trouble. I kept repeating for Koko to stay in a sit position but she turned her head and saw those dogs and made a bolt for them. I ended up sprinting after Koko and full out football tackled her while she was fighting the lab and got them separated.

The lab ended up getting a few puncture wounds and I offered the woman my home address and phone number as she was rightfully very distraught. She ended coming over with her husband about 30 minutes later and they wanted to check out Koko's vet care to make sure she was up to date on shots and that she was licensed. After speaking with them they decided they were not going to call the pound and they were not going to take there dog to the Vet but wanted me to answer how I can make sure this will never happen again. This happened on Monday night and I still cannot come up with an answer. I know I need more training with my dog - but the bottom line is- even if I have 100% recall control what happens if she escapes and is on her own? She will kill dogs and possibly hurt humans trying to protect there dogs and I cannot sleep at night because I am sick with worry about this.

What are your thoughts?


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## Diesel and Lace (Apr 15, 2013)

First let me start by saying that I have only had my GSD going on two weeks. He is also dog aggressive. I cannot leave him unattended outside in our fenced yard as I am certain given the chance he will jump or climb it in order to get to another dog. That being said he is on a 30ft long line at all times outside in my yard. I dont have it in hand 90% of the time but when something gets his attention I have the long end of it to make sure he does not climb / jump the fence. 

Yes you are correct you need to work with a trainer to control the impulses and OB. We start our training tonight with our GSD. It will be a very long time if EVER we will trust that he will not attack another dog. 

On a side note, does your home owners insurance have breed restrictions? If you dont know you need to look into it. If they do and your dog bites someone not only will you lose the dog you stand the chance of losing your home in a lawsuit. Scary stuff, I know for certain Geico will not insure a household with a GSD. If Geico were to come to your house for an unrelated claim and see you have a GSD they will drop you and not cover the claim even though it has nothing to do with your GSD.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You need serious training and I would not have her in the yard without direct supervision. I would consider double gates (so you have to open two gates to get out) , an electric hot wire around the inside of the fence, and a very secure dog pen with a concrete floor and roof inside the fence when you are not in the yard supervising. That is a lot but you clearly have a problem.


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## Ribrustler (May 5, 2011)

Diesel and Lace said:


> First let me start by saying that I have only had my GSD going on two weeks. He is also dog aggressive. I cannot leave him unattended outside in our fenced yard as I am certain given the chance he will jump or climb it in order to get to another dog. That being said he is on a 30ft long line at all times outside in my yard. I dont have it in hand 90% of the time but when something gets his attention I have the long end of it to make sure he does not climb / jump the fence.
> 
> Yes you are correct you need to work with a trainer to control the impulses and OB. We start our training tonight with our GSD. It will be a very long time if EVER we will trust that he will not attack another dog.
> 
> On a side note, does your home owners insurance have breed restrictions? If you dont know you need to look into it. If they do and your dog bites someone not only will you lose the dog you stand the chance of losing your home in a law suite. Scary stuff, I know for certain Geico will not insure a household with a GSD. If Geico were to come to your house for an unrelated claim and see you have a GSD they will drop you and not cover the claim even though it has nothing to do with your GSD.


Our house insurance does cover us for up to $250,000.00 even with a GSD. 

The main problem I have is we just moved into this house in December and my neighbors as well as my self all have 1 1/2 acre lots. My lot is half fenced and back half is open - but by neighbors on either side of me have no fencing. They just let there dogs out the back door and they run where they please. My one neighbor has a cockapoo on one side and my other neighbor has a westie and cockapoo and all 3 of them come to my yard and run the fence and send Koko into a frenzy if she is outside. The neighbors dogs are gentle and well trained - but I am having the dilemma of the being the hated the person in the area with the shepherd that will kill these dogs. Now I know I could call the township and pound and raise a stink and force them to fence there yards but then I will be hated. I know this because I have already spoken to them about the situation and the response I am getting ( I have lived here for 25 years and raised all kinds of dogs with no problems until now) 

I did not move here to cause problems and I am understanding to there view as our properties are beautiful but I also know Koko will kill there dogs if she ever escapes the yard again and I do not want to see anybody's dog killed or mine put to sleep. I know my dog has problem and I am coming to the conclusion that no matter how much training she receives if she escaped without me to stop her she will kill.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Then she can't have access to run the fence.  
Can you run an inexpensive wire fence outside of your wooden fence and plant barrier plants (like thorny shrubs) in the meanwhile?

I had the problem with my neighbor whose little dog comes up to my fence which I intentionally put INSIDE the property line. Although my dog does not have any issues with other dogs, I knew that fence fighting (which was starting to happen) could cause that behavior to escalate so I blocked his access to that section of the yard unless I am there.

Yes, I would not raise a stink.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would either keep her on a long line or possibly save up and put up a solid fence, one that other dogs can't see her and vice versa.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

The only way to solve your problem, aside from training is a fence. I have a 6' chainlink fence because I never wanted my dogs to get out. Your very lucky those people didn't take it further.


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## Diesel and Lace (Apr 15, 2013)

I think your only mistake here is thinking her behavior cannot be fixed without consulting others. Yes there are some dogs in which in no way ever could it be fixed but I would try at least to meet with some trainers (we met with 3 and have consulted 5) and it did not cost us a dime to get their opinion on the aggression. They may have a point of view you cannot as her handler see and be able to tell you if they think it is something that can be fixed, managed, or just she is going to be that way forever and she will always be a dangerous dog. Your neighbors are in the wrong and they are provoking the situation I agree with planting hardy bushes around so that they cannot get to the fence to provoke. Sorry you are going through this


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

Make sure you fence your whole yard and then find a good trainer


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

This is too important to treat as a training issue. You Have to manage your dog. What if it was a child that she attacked? Yes, train but also you must take safeguards to prevent it from happening, ever.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> You need serious training and I would not have her in the yard without direct supervision. I would consider double gates (so you have to open two gates to get out) , an electric hot wire around the inside of the fence, and a very secure dog pen with a concrete floor and roof inside the fence when you are not in the yard supervising. That is a lot but you clearly have a problem.


 
this. You know you have a serious issue. The above is a good suggestion on where to start. NEVER allow this dog outside unsupervised.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

KZoppa said:


> this. You know you have a serious issue. The above is a good suggestion on where to start. NEVER allow this dog outside unsupervised.


....or by someone else.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Get a six by twelve kennel for back yard....take her out house on leash and put her in kennel if she is to be in yard unsupervised. The next time this happens, there really isn't an excuse in the eyes of neighbors....plus the kennel will also show neighbors you are being proactive.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

before we fenced out yard (1 acre) i took the dogs out onleash with martingale collars on so they couldnt slip out of them.. carry dog mace so that when neighbor dogs come INTO your yard you keeep them away from your dog. 

double baby gate all doors that lead to outside... i have 5 gates up in my house specifically for doorways


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Ribrustler said:


> I know I need more training with my dog - but the bottom line is- even if I have 100% recall control what happens if she escapes and is on her own? She will kill dogs and possibly hurt humans trying to protect there dogs and I cannot sleep at night because I am sick with worry about this.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


I'm with the others - I would never rely solely on training for a situation like this, I'd be all about managing her environment so she never has the opportunity to escape from the yard. That's not to say that training isn't a good idea too, just that with the stakes so high, I'd never trust that the recall was 100%. The risk isn't worth it if you're wrong.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

What do you mean by the back is "half fenced"?

I have 6 foot privacy (shadowbox for air flow) on the sides of my fence and picket on the back (I wanted to do open wire but the HOA...sigh.....) anyway I build my fence inside the property line by a good 5 feet because I wanted no fence fighting.

To the left all is good and Beau in his fence and Ricket in his fence never bother one another and can actually meet outside the fences and be just fine. 

To the right the neghbor has the sides but not the back fenced and the little dog comes over and wants to fight through our fence. Well, I tried and tried to get her to fence across the back of her yard, put up a barrier, etc but have not resolved that issue so I limited Beau from unsupervised access to that section of the yard. He has no problems now but I new continued fence fighting would build frustration and I did not want that.

You can't let there be fence fighting, I am certain of that. I think it just ramps things up.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Some very good advice

do not let the dog run in the yard unsupervised!!!!

electric fence inside the physical fence - and train for fence aversion 

kennel run if you want to leave her out for a period - with roof!

do not let the dog outside unsupervised 

leave a long line on her

Chain the gate and lock it - do not open it if the dog is in the yard

do not let her outside unsupervised by YOU - not a child

A dog aggressive dog is a big responsibility....you have been lucky. Make sure you have more than luck from now on or your dog will be the one to pay.

Lee


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have 4 dogs, 2 are GSD's. I'm not to sure about the male and what he would do if he seen another dog. So far he gets very excited when he sees other dogs and his bark is pretty deep, which makes it sound pretty scary. I just put a offer in on a house and it was accepted. The FIRST think I am doing is putting a fence and a dog run with a double fence up. We will not be moving until that is done. Its a 1/2 acre lot and its going to cost a pretty penny, but for my own sanity it has to be done. I personally could never take the chance of my dogs hurting another dog or getting hurt themselves if they escape. I'm not big on them being outside without supervision either, I don't care how many fences I have up, it will take me a long time to feel that they are okay out there. As far as depending on recall, I would never assume that my dog will come or break focus on something that they really really want to get to.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Put the kennel on a concrete base, or they can dig under it. Use the kennel, in the fenced yard. She only comes out of the kennel when you can supervise. 

I think your victim is being very generous not going to animal control or the police. Use whatever money that you would have been stung for with a fine and quarantine to make the kennel as secure as possible.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Get a six by twelve kennel for back yard....take her out house on leash and put her in kennel if she is to be in yard unsupervised. The next time this happens, there really isn't an excuse in the eyes of neighbors....plus the kennel will also show neighbors you are being proactive.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

build him a kennel.


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## Ribrustler (May 5, 2011)

I have read all your suggestions and I have all these safety protocols in place, I have 10' x10' kennel with concrete floor and roof, I have 6 foot wood fence down my property sides and I have 5 chain link on the back side of my house with a spring loaded gate and it is padlocked unless I am doing yard work. I am not going to electrify my back fence.

I think at this point we are going to have to re-home her to an appropriate owner that can dedicate every waking minute to watching this dog. I have a teenage daughter and a 7 year old and there is no way I can possibly guarantee 100% containment. We have an inground pool now and we always have a lot of people over and all it takes is one slip up. The only way she would be 100% contained is if I never leave my house again and tht is not feasible


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, I think maybe you would be best served to NOT have a dog. This is the second you would have re-homed in two years because issues (one health, one temperament) were too much to deal with.

You CAN manage this dog and even work through the issues and you CAN work out containment without that much ado. But dogs a lot of take time and dedication....commitment. Better to place the dog now, while still young than to let it fester in a pen for a few more years though. Will the breeder take her back? This will be a hard dog to place.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Well, I think maybe you would be best served to NOT have a dog. This is the second you would have re-homed in two years because issues (one health, one temperament) were too much to deal with.
> 
> You CAN manage this dog and even work through the issues and you CAN work out containment without that much ado. But dogs a lot of take time and dedication....commitment. Better to place the dog now, while still young than to let it fester in a pen for a few more years though. Will the breeder take her back? This will be a hard dog to place.


That sounds quite rigid. Maybe stay away from herding and working breeds. I think in your case it is the safest option to re-home the dog. Spay her first if she isn't already to prevent new owners from breeding her.
Consider more laid back breeds. Larger if you don't mind the work and exercise and otherwise smaller breeds. You have to be honest with yourself.
There's an interesting book "Why we love the dogs we do" and it has a personality test in it to see which breeds will be a match for you. It is quite interesting. The breeds are not grouped per historic task but by personality.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

If you do rehome her, please be very careful about who she goes to. The sad fact is that her dog aggression will make management very important. The people that take her MUST be set up to deal with it. Otherwise she is going to be passed from one overwhelmed, frustrated home to another.
Sheilah


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

I agree with jocoyn. Having two dogs rehomed in two years says something about the temperament of the OP.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

did your dog escape from the kennel?



Ribrustler said:


> I have read all your suggestions and I have all these safety protocols in place,
> 
> >>>> I have 10' x10' kennel with concrete floor and roof<<<<
> 
> ...


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## LuccaVonCyclone (Apr 17, 2013)

Ribrustler said:


> I have read all your suggestions and I have all these safety protocols in place, I have 10' x10' kennel with concrete floor and roof, I have 6 foot wood fence down my property sides and I have 5 chain link on the back side of my house with a spring loaded gate and it is padlocked unless I am doing yard work. I am not going to electrify my back fence.
> 
> I think at this point we are going to have to re-home her to an appropriate owner that can dedicate every waking minute to watching this dog. I have a teenage daughter and a 7 year old and there is no way I can possibly guarantee 100% containment. We have an inground pool now and we always have a lot of people over and all it takes is one slip up. The only way she would be 100% contained is if I never leave my house again and tht is not feasible


I'll echo the others and say be VERY careful about who you rehome her with. She needs to go to someone who can dedicate the time & energy needed to manage her.

One thing I'm not understanding, is how having kids & guests = no possibility of containment? And how in order to contain her you could never leave your house? 

Either way, if you get another dog down the road, maybe something smaller, calmer and easier to manage would be better.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Many dogs are digging in order to escape. I beieve, there are quite a few different types of fencing exist for you to order. Put on muzze and start training her without any help of the leash. Consider muzze as a temporary measure.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> Get a six by twelve kennel for back yard....take her out house on leash and put her in kennel if she is to be in yard unsupervised. The next time this happens, there really isn't an excuse in the eyes of neighbors....plus the kennel will also show neighbors you are being proactive.


Picked up one of these when I moved into my unfenced neighborhood. After Jack jumped into a fight recently, I make sure to leash him before I open the door and he is Always either on leash or in the kennel. And I don't leave him out in the kennel if I'm not out there as well. Also, we signed up with a professional trainer. 

It has given me Such peace of mind 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also agree with Nancy.

You may have a very difficult time placing a dog who is dog aggressive and it sounds like maybe human aggressive in certain circumstances? 

I also agree this CAN be worked, find a trainer, make sure her confinement is fool proof.. IF you want to keep her.

I guess I'm rather confused as of your last post, Koko was doing pretty well and now this post is "the last straw?"..

Ginger was rehomed because of health issues, sounds like Koko having "loose hips' may have an issue there, and now that she's escaped and attacked a dog, she's gotta go?

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I no way blame you for Ginger's issues, but it sounds like Koko is suffering from owner failure

Tighten up security, find a good trainer, be vigilant and control situations.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Well, I think maybe you would be best served to NOT have a dog. This is the second you would have re-homed in two years because issues (one health, one temperament) were too much to deal with.
> 
> You CAN manage this dog and even work through the issues and you CAN work out containment without that much ado. But dogs a lot of take time and dedication....commitment. Better to place the dog now, while still young than to let it fester in a pen for a few more years though. Will the breeder take her back? This will be a hard dog to place.



This, 100%

If you aren't committed to owning a dog, OP, please don't get another.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I'm a bit confused as to if your yard is fully fenced or not?

If it is, I'd suggest getting an invisible fence or radio fence and setting it to the perimeter of the yard, preferably a few feet inside of the fence and train Koko to it. This would serve as a back up to keep your dog from escaping, even in the gate is left open or kids are coming and going. As an extra pre-caution, you could set an invisible fence in the front yard and train her to that as well...just in case. Invisible fences aren't always reliable on their own (and do nothing to keep other animals out) but can be a great back up for a situation like your's. 

If it's not, finish fencing it in and then do the invisible/radio fence.


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

well ive had lexie for almost 2 years and just recently put a fence up. if money is tight, i would just walk her for exercise and this way you can also do obedience training with her. a good trainer is a must, but with other dogs comming into your yard, well thats just a hornets nest waiting to be kicked. there have been great suggestions here, but i know just putting up a fence myself, that it can be very costly (cha-ching).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You have a kennel with a concrete base and a roof, within a fenced yard. All YOU have to do is leash her when going between the house and the kennel. It isn't rocket science. Unless you really don't want to be fussed by a dog, and _that_ we cannot help you with. 

Frankly, if that is the case, try to find a GSD rescue to place this dog. Maybe some of the folks here can help you find a rescue that will accept her from you. Many will not accept them from individuals and will only take them from shelters where they are likely to be PTS. Once you place or euthanize your dog, please don't get another dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> Once you place or euthanize your dog, please don't get another dog.


I don't understand this harsh comment. Just because someone is not able to handle or manage a GSD, doesn't meant that person cannot have some other breed that is docile.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> I don't understand this harsh comment. Just because someone is not able to handle or manage a GSD, doesn't meant that person cannot have some other breed that is docile.


Placing a dog in another home for health reasons (the dog's) or for training issues (dog aggression) -- everyone can make a mistake, and sometimes rehoming a dog is in the dog's best interest. 2 dogs in two years really suggest a lack of commitment on the part of the owner. A lack of commitment crosses the breeds. 

A specimen of a _more docile _breed may not house train quick enough, or it may not do a perfect Front fast enough, or it may chew the living room couch, or it may fail to eat while being boarded, or it may get separation anxiety, or it may yap, or it may -- well whatever. 

GSDs are the only dog out there for me, but I wouldn't wish on a Yorkie or a Sheltie or a Pug Dog an owner that is likely to get rid of the dog if it isn't perfect in their opinion. Perfect doesn't come in any canine shape or size.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> I don't understand this harsh comment. Just because someone is not able to handle or manage a GSD, doesn't meant that person cannot have some other breed that is docile.


Which breed is docile? I have a neighbor with two sweet as pie ankle biters that I'm pretty sure she would describe as docile. Meantime, they chase golf carts, have bitten three people within the past two months, and started a dog fight. Dogs are dogs, and need to be managed and trained. It's about the handler. 

People who can't manage their dogs, just shouldn't have dogs. 

I mean, how do you have an aggressive animal, that you Know is aggressive, and give it an opportunity to attack. You have a kennel, and don't use it for Whatever reason?!? Drama seeker?!?

Time to rehome, with full disclosure, to someone willing rehab this dog  just hope the OP lets us help find this dog the right person... Before the dog suffers the ultimate punishment and gets PTS. So wrong. 


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

All breeds need committed owners who will put the effort into training/socializing, etc. The so-called "docile" breeds need commitment, too. Are some breeds less challenging than others? Yes. But they all need some level of effort form their owners. 
Sheilah


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## Ribrustler (May 5, 2011)

selzer said:


> You have a kennel with a concrete base and a roof, within a fenced yard. All YOU have to do is leash her when going between the house and the kennel. It isn't rocket science. Unless you really don't want to be fussed by a dog, and _that_ we cannot help you with.
> 
> Frankly, if that is the case, try to find a GSD rescue to place this dog. Maybe some of the folks here can help you find a rescue that will accept her from you. Many will not accept them from individuals and will only take them from shelters where they are likely to be PTS. Once you place or euthanize your dog, please don't get another dog.


I have to say that these forums have turned to be ugly derogatory bits of information. 
My first dog that I rehomed had hole in the heart disease. My personal vet said it would be best to put her down right away because the murmur was so loud. I ended taking her to MSU veterinary hospital which is the best in the state of Michigan and probably top 5 in the U.S. After they ran all there tests they said that Ginger would not live past year and was un-operable. So I rehomed her - paid for her medication to keep her heart rhythm regular and visited her weekly. She ended up dying at 7 months - convulsing for over 20 minutes as her heart was unable to deliver blood to her system any more. To appease the people of this board I will be sure to keep a dog like this next time so my 5 year old can watch her first family dog die in front of her- probably a good life lesson by some people's standard on this board I can see.

I have owned 2 other dogs - a lab - pure breed and a malamute - both dogs lived long healthy lives and were social well trained dogs. I have never had german shepherd before, but the all the shepherds I have met were docile controlable family animals. So I am having a tough time controlling her around other dogs and I have failed as owner because I have shied away from other animals to avoid the conflict. I expected some help or some trainer information for the state of Michigan but not one single reference from anybody.

The rocket science comment is especially appropriate -thank you. My dog is exercised daily - I have a walky dog and we ride bike everyday, and we play in our back yard - everyday. I love this dog - but I am looking to the future - not next week. My oldest daughter is 12 - close to teenage years and all I can see happening is some friends will be over- maybe a boy and My wife and I are not home and some how the dog escapes, I cannot 100% percent guarantee that some sort of scenario like this will not play out. Now if some of the people making rude comments have children and can attest to there 100% due diligence with listening then I guess I fail as a father also and need to learn how to raise 100% under control-will never disobey children.

Now I have contacted Worlld class canine here in Michigan. They specialize in training shepherds / malnois and they want to do an evaluation with my dog so I am going thru with this next step and maybe one person on this forum has used them and may be able to offer some insight.


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## Odin24 (Jun 29, 2007)

I have never heard of World Class Canine but am interested in hearing how this works out for you. I looked at their website and it seems like they use highly experienced trainers.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think anyone here was putting you down for what happened with Ginger.

I realize your 'new' to gsd's, I think maybe the first error was, when you saw all those docile gsd's out there, you should have asked them where their dogs came from.

The second thing, would have been, I would have chalked up my first experience as a lesson, and found a "different" breeder, since she charged you 100$ to KEEP ginger/rehome her and gave you another dog..She should have GIVEN you another dog.

That's neither here nor there at this point.

Start all over, GO to training and committ to it. Training for these dogs aren't a month or so, it can be months/years/lifetime. 

Build a secure Kennel inside your yard and put a lock on it so none of the kids can let her out..

I really wish you good luck, these dogs are not for everyone.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Ribrustler said:


> I expected some help or some trainer information for the sate of Michigan but not one single reference from anybody.


I'm sorry you didn't get the kind of advice you were looking for, and I agree that some of it was a little harsh. But I looked through the previous posts in your thread and I don't see where you asked for a trainer referrals. And since your profile does not show a location and until this post you did not even mention what state you live in, I wouldn't expect that anyone would have a referral since we didn't know where you live.  

There is a sub forum on the board that's specifically for looking for trainers, it might be a good idea to start a thread there, and make sure that the thread title mentions the area you live in, so people near you will notice it. 

As I said before, training is a good idea, but you'll never be 100% sure this will never happen again unless your management strategy is rock solid. Good luck.


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## Ribrustler (May 5, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm sorry you didn't get the kind of advice you were looking for, and I agree that some of it was a little harsh. But I looked through the previous posts in your thread and I don't see where you asked for a trainer referrals. And since your profile does not show a location and until this post you did not even mention what state you live in, I wouldn't expect that anyone would have a referral since we didn't know where you live.
> 
> There is a sub forum on the board that's specifically for looking for trainers, it might be a good idea to start a thread there, and make sure that the thread title mentions the area you live in, so people near you will notice it.
> 
> As I said before, training is a good idea, but you'll never be 100% sure this will never happen again unless your management strategy is rock solid. Good luck.


I am sorry for the outburst. This has been a difficult week and I am not much of a wordsmith so my typing and explanations have not been very good.


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## mikeber (May 11, 2013)

Diesel and Lace said:


> On a side note, does your home owners insurance have breed restrictions? If you dont know you need to look into it. If they do and your dog bites someone not only will you lose the dog you stand the chance of losing your home in a lawsuit. Scary stuff, I know for certain Geico will not insure a household with a GSD. If Geico were to come to your house for an unrelated claim and see you have a GSD they will drop you and not cover the claim even though it has nothing to do with your GSD.


Sorry for the following comment, but the OP question was how to train the dog and prevent her from repeating the unwanted behavior, not what Geico (or other crappy insurance company) may do. She doesn't need extra aggravation. 

As for a German Shepherd, such behaviors are quite common. But the same dog has superior learning capability and with the right training these can be corrected. BTW, where did you get the dog from - is it a rescue?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

can you work out something like exercise koko hard for an hour a day? this will make it much more easy to control her aggression trust me. A walk does not do anything either. I mean real exercise. My dog is not dog aggressive just can have a bit of a temper. I know that if i do not give her intense work outs her temper towards other dogs SKY ROCKETS. If shes worked out properly and mentally kept in check shes fine with other dogs and can be off leash with them. 

Lack of exercise plus mental stimulation = moody shepherd


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

why are people bringing up kids and human aggression? does this dog go out and seek people to attack? or kids? I am confused?

If its because the dog can hurt someone in their way trying to split up a dog fight well ANY dog can and will do that so I wouldnt start pointing fingers and labeling dogs human aggressive just because they may maul someone who gets inbetween them and and another dog in a fight. It happens. Dogs aren't people.

This dog is not dangerous to kids unless the OP said it is human aggressive. To the op I just hope you or your kids do things with your gsd other than keep her locked up in the yard all the time? I don't understand who is going to want a dog that is so eager to fight with other dogs when there are so many gsd's they can get that don't have that issue?


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## brebrehj (Jan 18, 2013)

My 3 year old has the same issue with dogs. Because of where we live we are only allowed a 4ft chain link around our yard which he has jumped a couple of times. He is not allowed outside without myself or husband present. 

We have found that putting a muzzle on him and slowly introducing him to other dogs has worked well. We are now able to take him to the dog park without worry. ..and he does amazing. 
I can understand if your almost teenager is home alone there could be a possibility of the dog escaping. If your 12 your old doesn't understand the severity of the situation maybe crating koko in a locked room would be an option. 
Good luck. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Ribrustler (May 5, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I don't think anyone here was putting you down for what happened with Ginger.
> 
> I realize your 'new' to gsd's, I think maybe the first error was, when you saw all those docile gsd's out there, you should have asked them where their dogs came from.
> 
> ...


I have hired a trainer and he visited us Tuesday night. He is from War Hammer Rottweilers out of Saginaw Michigan. He specializes in aggression cases.
He spent about 2 hours with us - 1 hr in the house just watching Koko go about her business and then he worked outside for a half hour with a prong collar. He feels that my dog is not aggressive - she is just reacting to other dogs with aggression out of fear and that I the owner have not been the leader for her. I need to work with her to establish a new leadership role so she does not feel afraid when she see's others dogs. Basically he thinks that she taught herself to be aggressive and no one was there to teach her otherwise - so we are going to unteach this bad behavior. He showed my wife and myself how to use a prong collar properly and we are working commands with the prong collar. She did not make a mistake after about 3 minutes (she is trained and knows commands so this was not much of a surprise). He then introduced his dog- a 120 pound male Rottweiler (and I have to say the best trained dog I have ever seen in my life) and Koko did not make a move- she would not even stare at the dog. He had me advance on Koko with his dog in 5 foot intervals swinging around to her back side until the 2 dogs were side by side. I have to say it was the most amazing thing I have ever seen- because since Koko was 8 months old she would go ape%^% whenever she saw another dog. He even then had the 2 dogs walking side by side through my whole property and Koko did not make a move. Then he had me and my wife work both the dogs together and no reaction. 
The trainer noticed that Koko raised her left paw while he was first working her - before the introduction of the Rottweiler and he said that was good - that it meant she was submitting - is this true? 

Well we are working on the commands that he taught us with the prong collar for the next week and he will be back next week for some training and he says he is going to bring a few male german shepherds to work with, so hopefully I will have another positive update.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am glad to hear that you have found a trainer. I think that the security measures of a fence, kennel run etc are still valid. The most important factor though, is that your family and Koko redefine acceptable behavior and training and it sounds like working with this is a very very positive step. I would expect it to take quite a few sessions to get a solid handle and control on your dog though...don't expect 2 or 3 sessions to cure the issue.

Good luck!

Lee


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Ribrustler said:


> The trainer noticed that Koko raised her left paw while he was first working her - before the introduction of the Rottweiler and he said that was good - that it meant she was submitting - is this true?


NO. It's a calming signal. A great video to learn more calming signals is The Language of Dogs by Sarah Kalnajs. 

To some trainers it's the same as submission since she was trying to communicate that she didn't want trouble. I personally like to work with me dog as a team, not in a dominant/submissive role especially when working with fear when I want to raise their confidence and security.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't know about the submission and you may get comments on the prong but I had a police officer help me out with a fear agressive dog using the same approach and it worked very well, It did not fix the dog's fundamental fear issue but it put us in control. 

I still think you will wind up very much in a management state...with the dog locked in the kennel when you cannot supervise and will never let the kids walk her etc.. Padlock. Keys. Just knowing the "type" of aggression helps you figure out the approach.

The issue people have with using the prong with an aggressive dog is the timing. You demand obedience and correct the infraction...The dog can learn to look at you when another dog is encountered. We also used a lot of praise for "look at me" during walks. 

Many people do do desensitization training, and other behaviorist methods. We did have limited success with those but it was the obedience approach with the prong that got us there but it really was is all in the technique and the timing. Once the dog has gone ballistic and their head is in another place, the prong only escalates the behavior. 

I hope you wind up with a 'liveable' situation. Life with a fearful dog is a challenge.


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## Ribrustler (May 5, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> I am glad to hear that you have found a trainer. I think that the security measures of a fence, kennel run etc are still valid. The most important factor though, is that your family and Koko redefine acceptable behavior and training and it sounds like working with this is a very very positive step. I would expect it to take quite a few sessions to get a solid handle and control on your dog though...don't expect 2 or 3 sessions to cure the issue.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Lee


We have the yard fully fenced- we have the kennel - now, as I just finished this past weekend. I do not expect Koko's behavior to ever be fully removed but we can at least make it manageable. The trainer spent time with me and posture with the dog and voice tone. I am not a small man and I can be very dominating and the trainer felt that alone set off the wrong mood between Koko and myself.

I realize and have always realized that this is a life long commitment and that I was not fully understanding the breed. I am fully aware that this will not be cured in a couple weeks sessions with this trainer - but I feel a whole lot better seeing the results that I did see already.

I have one more question- I cant help but think that Koko was as mild as she was because his dog is a very well behaved dog so she was at some ease because of this. Am I just being to skeptical or is there some truth to this? He mentioned when we take Koko for her walks this week that instead of crossing the street when we see another dog coming( like we have done in the past) that we walk past the other dog with Koko - but not let them get face to face - he also said to shout to the other owner that we are working our dog so please tighten your leash and do not let it run up in her face. By doing this he says Koko will here me (the leader) giving a verbal command to the other people and then by walking her past will help her build confidence in me as her leader again. It seems to make sense. what are your thoughts?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would always announce to folks that my dog was NOT friendly. and pass them in such a way there was not chance of contact. You will have to play it by ear. I would say if the other dog is on a flexi lead then cross the street, sorry! On a regular lead and it appears under control that may work but I would want to build up on that a little more slowly, personally.

I spent a lot of time walking past and ignoring fence charging dogs before I got to that point. [I hate using another persons problem as a "trainng opportunity" but they were not going to fix that issue anyway. Actually some of them I got to get to calm down because I had my dog give calming signals to them by making him sit...and when THEY quieted, I would throw them a treat (yeah, I know...but..they were outside 24/7 not really part of any family).]


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Ribrustler said:


> I have one more question- I cant help but think that Koko was as mild as she was because his dog is a very well behaved dog so she was at some ease because of this. Am I just being to skeptical or is there some truth to this?


Yes, there is truth to it. Some dogs are much better at dog to dog communication than others and have a natural ability to put other dogs at ease. If the dog was hyper or fearful, Koko's reaction would likely be very different.

I think letting the other owner know that you are working on Koko's manners is a smart move to keep everyone safe. The other owners need to be aware of their own dog, however. Advising them to tighten up on leash could very well cause their dog to react which would have a negative impact on what you are trying to accomplish with Koko. You don't have to cross the street but you should allow enough space that you both can pass with a short but loose leash and good control. The more neutral (and even positive) interactions Koko has, the better.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

gsdraven said:


> Yes, there is truth to it. Some dogs are much better at dog to dog communication than others and have a natural ability to put other dogs at ease. If the dog was hyper or fearful, Koko's reaction would likely be very different.
> 
> I think letting the other owner know that you are working on Koko's manners is a smart move to keep everyone safe. The other owners need to be aware of their own dog, however. Advising them to tighten up on leash could very well cause their dog to react which would have a negative impact on what you are trying to accomplish with Koko. You don't have to cross the street but you should allow enough space that you both can pass with a short but loose leash and good control. The more neutral (and even positive) interactions Koko has, the better.


...and walk between Koko and the other dog to put up a physical barrier. If you tell the other owner that your dog is not friendly that can get you into legal trouble when something happens since you are aware. Other dogs who are reactive themselves will cause a different reaction from Koko than the trainer's Rottweiler.
In a case like this I advice my clients to muzzle-train their dog; it relaxes the owner as well. In the meantime keep a confident and happy attitude towards her in the presence of other dogs. I hope your trainer told you to reward her for good behavior. A toy and play can work wonders as a distraction and it will associate the other dog with something positive.
Never let your guard down when things go well though.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

First, kudos to you for doing the right thing for Koko! A lot of people aren't willing to admit they need help and then take concrete steps to ensure the safety and well being of their dog.

...and just a suggestion to help dealing with other dogs and their humans on walks...

I dealt with a temporary issue of fear aggression with one of my dogs and found that getting a vest with patches on it that said 'in training' and 'do not pet' or 'ask to pet' helped slow other people down.

They would see the vest, pause, I would say my dog is in training please give her some space and usually they obliged usually without any fuss. 

I found that having the 'time' buffer and more compliance from oncoming strangers gave me time and room to focus on what I needed to be doing. Vests are surprisingly helpful additions to training!

(Just be careful to not put any patches which would lead anyone to think your dog is a service dog or police dog. )

"*Help you and your dog relax in public.*
*Give your dog a sense of security & purpose.*
*Keep curious dog lovers from invading your dog's space.*
*Let people know that you are busy training your dog.*
*Identify your dog as a "work in progress".*
Dog In Training Vest - The Pawsitive Dog





Ribrustler said:


> We have the yard fully fenced- we have the kennel - now, as I just finished this past weekend. I do not expect Koko's behavior to ever be fully removed but we can at least make it manageable. The trainer spent time with me and posture with the dog and voice tone. I am not a small man and I can be very dominating and the trainer felt that alone set off the wrong mood between Koko and myself.
> 
> I realize and have always realized that this is a life long commitment and that I was not fully understanding the breed. I am fully aware that this will not be cured in a couple weeks sessions with this trainer - but I feel a whole lot better seeing the results that I did see already.
> 
> I have one more question- I cant help but think that Koko was as mild as she was because his dog is a very well behaved dog so she was at some ease because of this. Am I just being to skeptical or is there some truth to this? *He mentioned when we take Koko for her walks this week that instead of crossing the street when we see another dog coming( like we have done in the past) that we walk past the other dog with Koko - but not let them get face to face - he also said to shout to the other owner that we are working our dog so please tighten your leash and do not let it run up in her face.* By doing this he says Koko will here me (the leader) giving a verbal command to the other people and then by walking her past will help her build confidence in me as her leader again. It seems to make sense. what are your thoughts?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know a muzzle is a good thing. I have my dogs conditioned to one of these in case they get hurt because it allows panting and drinking. For aggression issues you may want one with a strap OVER the head as well. It will also be visible evidence you are working on things and give some room for comfort.

What I have
Italian Basket Dog Muzzles

Extra strap (do not have but I know agitation muzzles for muzzle fighting do but are leather and very expensive) - some of these have the strap that goes between eyes and some muzzles actually attach to the collar for more security.
Heavy Duty Wire Basket Dog Muzzles

I linked to morrco because I had a good sales experience with them and their prices are good.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

muzzle she can eat and drink in

I have seen some very dangerous dogs running free in off leash trails with the basket muzzles, they are able to eat and drink in them and have total freedom, sometimes they can attack and scare the living **** out of some dogs but still no real damage is done 

It is a great idea and she can still drink and eat, it will take time to get use to it. Also with a muzzle people wont be scared to bring her back to you. 


Plenty of dogs have them. No big deal. Just takes time to get use to. Also great way to socialize and be a better dog like others said. I have seen a few gsd's wear them also running free in off leash trails where i go.

I am ordering a muzzle today also but not for the same reasons as you


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

pets4life said:


> muzzle she can eat and drink in
> 
> I have seen some very dangerous dogs running free in off leash trails with the basket muzzles, they are able to eat and drink in them and have total freedom, sometimes they can attack and scare the living **** out of some dogs but still no real damage is done


Don't think that when he wears a muzzle he can be loose among dogs. If he scares an impressionable dog he can make that dog dog-aggressive. And his behavior can make other strong dogs attack him and render him defenseless.


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## Ribrustler (May 5, 2011)

> Don't think that when he wears a muzzle he can be loose among dogs. If he scares an impressionable dog he can make that dog dog-aggressive. And his behavior can make other strong dogs attack him and render him defenseless


. 


I do have a muzzle for Koko - I only used it when we would be vacationing with Koko- we rent a lake house every year for week and we take Koko with us and muzzle her when we walk the beaches because there are so many dogs and familys etc.

I do not have any intention of letting Koko run off leash ahywhere but my back yard -supervised, any time soon.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am glad that you are going above and beyond for you dog. Getting the kennel completed, and bringing in a trainer will probably make the difference you need to keep your pet. 

While the man was there with his Rottweiler, your dog sensed that his dog was calm and possibly clearly dominant -- now, I don't buy the whole thing about us dominating our dogs, and making them submissive -- but I do think that dogs have a hierarchy amongst themselves, and in dog language, a clearly dominant dog is unlikely to be challenged by beta dogs, or wanna-be-top-dogs. Most dogs will read them properly, and offer a sign that lets the dog know that they are no threat, and all is good. 

What this means is that your dog might react very differently to a dog of a different demeaner. But, getting your dog comfortable with one other dog seems to be a good approach, and a beginning to getting your dog less reactive over-all.

Prong collar or not, I think that your best remedy for the overall issue besides management, is to go regularly to training classes. Any training classes. I think working with the guy you have is great, but he and his one dog, on your property will need to be changed up, to include other people and their dogs. Not right away maybe, maybe after a month or more of working one on one. But you will want to build her confidence in herself and her confidence in you. And training classes can provide you with an opportunity to build confidence while working in proximity with other dogs and other people once a week. 

But yes, reactive dogs will probably ramp your dog up, and can put you back a few steps. Bad shtuff does happen on occasion, and sometimes our response to a bad thing can make things better or worse. So it is best to work it out in your brain before hand, what you are going to do in various scenarios. Like, if you see another dog and your dog bristles and starts to bark, instead of stopping and apologizing, say EH, correct with your collar, slightly change you direction so that you will not come closer to the other dog, but you are not completely going away -- that would be rewarding your dog for the behavior, and keep moving. Don't worry about the other guy's feelings unless your dog connects, and don't let that happen. 

If you see someone with a dog that does not seem to be under good control -- old lady with a Yorkie on a Flexi-lead, or a kid with a large dog, or someone riding a bike with the dog running along, always opt for the safest route, even if that means stepping off the path, onto grass, or totally changing directions before something awful happens. It might mean warning someone that your dog is not friendly, but be prepared that people are morons and often ignore you and let their dog run right up anyway. To protect your dog, and your dog's development/training, it may mean avoiding situations like that, and trying very hard not to get infuriated at the same time. 

If something does happen, a loose dog rushes up and tries to attack your dog, or connects with your dog, or your dog does something you aren't proud of with someone else's dog, have it worked out ahead of time how you are going to react. Once the altercation is over, the best thing to do is to move on like it didn't happen. You need to apologize, exchange information, etc. if your dog is in the wrong, but what I mean is you have to control your adrenalin level and try not to let what happened just now, effect the rest of your day, and your next walk. Our leashes are like telegraph lines to our dogs about our demeaner. Our dogs do respond to our heightened nerves. They live very much in the moment, though they will remember some stuff. They can get over something like this, a lot quicker if we do not over-react. And the only way we can try to manage our own emotions in situations is to have a plan before we ever step out of the door.


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## Ribrustler (May 5, 2011)

> Prong collar or not, I think that your best remedy for the overall issue besides management, is to go regularly to training classes. Any training classes. I think working with the guy you have is great, but he and his one dog, on your property will need to be changed up, to include other people and their dogs. Not right away maybe, maybe after a month or more of working one on one. But you will want to build her confidence in herself and her confidence in you. And training classes can provide you with an opportunity to build confidence while working in proximity with other dogs and other people once a week


I fully agree, this trainer is going to bring a different dog next week when he comes and we are gong to work short lead recall with another dog present. He then said by week 3 he is going to bring 5 dogs - 3 large breed 1 medium and a small dog and he is going to work Koko and myself around the different dogs.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Ribrustler said:


> He then said by week 3 he is going to bring 5 dogs - 3 large breed 1 medium and a small dog and he is going to work Koko and myself around the different dogs.


My trainer does this. It's a class so there are a variety of dogs there, but we did walk around all the dogs. Riley was really scared of other dogs and I was told this could turn into aggression. He is doing much better now. I hope it works out well for your dog.


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