# Good breeder, still got weak nerves? Poll



## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

I'm wondering how common it is for a generally good breeder to still produce dogs with temperament flaws? 

How many of you spent the time to find a reputable breeder and still ended up with a dog with problems? 

My dog is very frustrating, he can go anywhere with us and be comfortable ...as long as no strangers approach him directly (he is fine with strangers talking to us, but if they stand in front of him and look right at him...like they are going to pet him he barks) 

He is absolutely terrified of the vet and has to be muzzled YET is totally fine with kids and any of our friends and family. 

Just yesterday he actually growled at us for intentionally grabbing a spot he doesn't like to be touched ...as it turns out he has a scratch that hurts him there..but I am still surprised.

I am part of a fairly large meetup ground and have been attending training almost every single week for the past 5 months (at least once a week, half that time was twice a week) his obedience is fine but the classes barely touch on what we actually need help with.

He did actually PASS his CGC but now I know that was a fluke..and it was only because we worked with him ALOT leading up to the test. 

anyway back to the question...am I alone here? I would contact the breeder but am not interested in returning him so I don't see a solution.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I remember chatting with you and who you ended up going with.

As I recall it was between Covey Tucker Hill (ASL) and a couple of WL breeders, yes?

You went with WL.

The puppy is just turning a year old? yes?

Are you training with a trainer experienced with WL GSDs? I found some trainers just don't have experience with the dogs with the kind of prey/defense and drives for which GSDs are bred. 

These dogs go through stages. Ilda went through it at about 10 months. I got together with an IPO trainer and he got us back on track. She did the exact same thing, if a stranger stared down at her she barked. 

At first I didn't know what to do.

He's getting snarky with you. It may be a bratty teenager type thing.

I would not chalk this up to poor temperament _yet._

This happens sometimes, GSDs aren't always the easiest dogs to raise. They take awhile to mature, they are putting together a lot of drives and intelligence and they can be perplexing and frustrating. I know Ilda was for me because my other dogs didn't have the drives she has. WLs can be even more of a handful.

I think rather then starting a poll here you should contact your breeder and discuss with her. 

She may be able to provide guidance and assistance to help you overcome this. If not and this dog is not right for you then what else can you do? 

I hope you and Klaus can overcome this.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Never mind...I see you are working in protection sports (I just saw the go pro video)

I didn't know you were doing that with Klaus. 

I still think you should discuss with the breeder, not do a poll here.....

Best of luck, I do hope it works out.


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

The trainer seems to think this isn't a big deal but does think its a temperament thing, honestly day to day he is fantastic..this growling thing may just be him being a brat..it is the first time it ever happened...as long as this doesn't get worse with us there really isn't a huge problem(so I just wont let strangers pet him and muzzle him at the vet) but I am disappointed still with the breeding.

I maintain the breeder updated with how Klaus is doing but haven't specifically asked her to help address the problem.

His obedience is so good that I am positive the only way he would bite is if a strange adult ran up on him and grabbed him. A child did this once..but he likes kids.

Even stranger is he is fine with the adults that walk by and stick their hands in his face / pat his head.

Oh and the poll is because I am genuinely curious about how common this is, I know even the best breeders will produce less than perfect nerves..but how common is it? I never hear anyone talk about this.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

JMHO. But yes. You can get a dog from a great breeder that has issues. You can have every dog in the pedigree with good hips and end up with a dysplastic dog. Same goes for temperament. You do the best to stack the deck in your favor and hope for the best. 

I have never had a perfect dog, no matter where the dog came from. Every dog has issues, be they big or small, overcome able/ manageable or not. It happens 

I will say that at your pups age, sometimes you gotta just keep going and they work out if it or mature out if it. I have had dogs that are completely different at 3 than they were at 1. Like totally different dogs different. 

Sounds like you are in good hands training wise. Good Luck.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'd listen to the protection trainers. They've got the hands on experience with a Klaus.

Plus he's still young yet.

If he keeps growling at you you've got experienced trainers to discuss this with. 

How are his litter mates doing?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

there is not a pedigree out there that is without some risks - hips, nerves, health issues....the key is knowing the risks, and deciding how strong they are....and if you, as a breeder, are ready to deal with the problem pups if they come through....

EVERY breeder can and will eventually produce a pup with less than stellar nerves/temperament....the key is do they recognize the issue and what their game plan is in dealing with it.....personally, one of my early litters had a female I adored, drivy as all get out...but not confident enough for my taste....sure I could have worked her, conditioned her to the home field/helper and eventually get her titled which would establish "breed worthiness" but I chose to rehome her, without papers, on a spay agreement - that female is nearly 13 and still in a loving home....is socially functional but never has been a social butterfly....

Part of being a responsible breeder is placing pups appropriately and being objective about your breeding stock....if more breeders were objective instead of kennel blind there would be less problem dogs out there.

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I just saw your additional comments. I don't know, the poll seems unfair to the breeder but that's MHO.

Like gsdsar states, every dog is different. Ilda is a different dog now then when she was a year old. So true.

He looked pretty good in the go pro video!

As for strangers petting him, I don't want strangers petting my dogs.

I don't allow strangers to pet any of my dogs now that they are adults. It serves no purpose and Ilda now is aloof to strangers. She loves her pack and loves being with me, is focused on me and that's all that matters.

Don't worry yet....


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hmm. 

He sounds like trouble. 

Send him to me, I'll take him off your hands. . 




Montu said:


> The trainer seems to think this isn't a big deal but does think its a temperament thing, honestly day to day he is fantastic..
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> ...


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> *there is not a pedigree out there that is without some risks - hips, nerves, health issues....the key is knowing the risks, and deciding how strong they are....and if you, as a breeder, are ready to deal with the problem pups if they come through....*
> 
> *EVERY breeder can and will eventually produce a pup with less than stellar nerves/temperament....the key is do they recognize the issue and what their game plan is in dealing with it*.....personally, one of my early litters had a female I adored, drivy as all get out...but not confident enough for my taste....sure I could have worked her, conditioned her to the home field/helper and eventually get her titled which would establish "breed worthiness" but I chose to rehome her, without papers, on a spay agreement - that female is nearly 13 and still in a loving home....is socially functional but never has been a social butterfly....
> 
> ...



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with Gwen, if you are having trouble with a dog, then your first step is to contact the breeder and get their input BEFORE posting on a general forum, where people may know them and their dogs. 

A breeder will most likely have experience with their lines and can give you some pointers on what may make working with the pup easier for you. No, they are not all the same, and neither are the handlers. Sometimes good breeders match up a pup with the wrong handler. 

This could be a temperament issue, it could just be a different dog than the others you have raised. They all have different thresholds, and yours may react more quickly than another if he has a painful spot and you grab that spot. A growl in that circumstance, while we really don't like it, it is still communication. 

Keep training. I would be very surprised if maturity doesn't change him a lot. Work with the trainers who know these dogs, and call your breeder and talk to them about it as well -- maybe they can give you solid advice as well.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My very stable dog with fairly high threshold needs to be muzzled for vetting. Some dogs just don't want to be invaded. I won't try to desensitize that. He was much better at handling after spending two weeks at a hospital recovering from Lepto, but I would not expect him to be happy about having his body groped and prodded at. He had a bladder cath in for several days and wore an IV for 2 weeks. Muzzled for any procedure was a given. 

I don't see growling(wearing a muzzle to protect the vet staff or anyone handling a dog that the dog doesn't know) as poor nerves but just a dog giving a warning. And a muzzle will give that dog some relief that the option of biting has been taken away. I'll take a dog like this any day over a timid submissive pee'r. GSD's are supposed to carry some aggression. 
I don't have an issue with it, though would prefer to do the nail trims and handling without the growls or howls.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Come to think of it my trainer said he muzzles his dog when in the vets office. Yet the dog plays with kids and I've played with him many times and he's fine. He's not muzzled any where else I've seen him.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm another that muzzles my GSD's at the vet. The dogs seem to relax once the muzzle is on and so do the vet/techs. They are far from weak nerved, I just like to error on the side of caution.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Come to think of it my trainer said he muzzles his dog when in the vets office. Yet the dog plays with kids and I've played with him many times and he's fine. He's not muzzled any where else I've seen him.



No offense, but this is something I heartily disagree with. As someone in the field. And as someone who has had some great working dogs, not a one has needed muzzling at the vets. Not one. If I tell them to allow it, they allow it. 

I know lots of people are going to disagree with me. But to me, it's a trust issue. My dogs trust I won't put them in a life threatening situation. If I tell my dog not to bite someone, they better **** well not bite them. Sorry. 

I guess I just don't get it when people say they have a totally stable dog, but.... That dog will bite the vet, even if the vet is just palpating them. If I am there, and they trust me to control the situation, then they should not act aggressively. What makes the vets office any different than any other situation they dog may be uncomfortable in? Why does the dog get to chose how to respond to a vet, but not a kid? Or a stranger? 

Serious question, I would love to hear some input.


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

gsdsar!

Exactly! 

Honestly if he doesn't like being petted fine! I'll accept that..but if i tell him he HAS to be handled for what ever reason..he should be able to sit through it. 

I'm not trying to force him to say Hi to every stranger. 

As for this not being fair to the breeder..what's not fair? This is my situation i'm not making anything up, what's not fair is when people do not post about this kind of thing and potential buyers see nothing but positive posts / a sugar coated story. Not to mention I have not even named the breeder in this thread.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> No offense, but this is something I heartily disagree with. As someone in the field. And as someone who has had some great working dogs, not a one has needed muzzling at the vets. Not one. If I tell them to allow it, they allow it.
> 
> I know lots of people are going to disagree with me. But to me, it's a trust issue. My dogs trust I won't put them in a life threatening situation. If I tell my dog not to bite someone, they better **** well not bite them. Sorry.
> 
> ...



I raise my dogs to think they can take on the world and win. I want them to be pushy, strong and let you know if you do something they don't like. The vet is no different than any other stranger. My dog's don't run up to strangers for pets, they don't interact with strangers much at all. I don't ever leave my house without one of my dogs. They are completely neutral to people dogs or whatever critter is around. Now take them to a vet where they are poked prodded and whatever else. If my dogs are at the vet, it's most likely because something is wrong. Now you're amplifying the situation. You work in the field, so you know majority of vets/techs handling skills are lacking. My wife is a vet tech. I've seen some of the crap they do if a dog gets snarky, or is resistant to whatever position they are trying to put it in. Do that to a strong dog and you'll get bit. My wifes office works with a lot of the police k-9's, she will be the first one to tell you that the way she deals with them is very different than how she deals with the average pet dog. If they are supposed to be the same then why? Are those dogs nervy?


Edit: I also don't see it as a trust thing. Do you really think the dog understands that you said it okay?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Honestly. Yes. Lots of police dogs are nervy. Sorry. My last practice had the contract with 4 local LE K-9 units. And yes some if the dogs were of very poor temperament. It's the truth. Police dog does not mean good dog. 

But the good ones, their handler could restrain them. And we could do what was needed without a muzzle. 

Now, that is not to say if we had to hospitalize one it would be the same. Different story. But if the dog is stable and the handler is there telling them to "chill" then they should. Nothing a vet does during a normal routine exam is soooooo painful and scary that a stable dog should react over aggressively. Rude yes. But again, if your dog trusts you, why should they be allowed to overrule you and be aggressive when you tell them not to?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I raise my dogs to think they can take on the world and win. I want them to be pushy, strong and let you know if you do something they don't like. The vet is no different than any other stranger. My dog's don't run up to strangers for pets, they don't interact with strangers much at all. I don't ever leave my house without one of my dogs. They are completely neutral to people dogs or whatever critter is around. Now take them to a vet where they are poked prodded and whatever else. If my dogs are at the vet, it's most likely because something is wrong. Now you're amplifying the situation. You work in the field, so you know majority of vets/techs handling skills are lacking. My wife is a vet tech. I've seen some of the crap they do if a dog gets snarky, or is resistant to whatever position they are trying to put it in. Do that to a strong dog and you'll get bit. My wifes office works with a lot of the police k-9's, she will be the first one to tell you that the way she deals with them is very different than how she deals with the average pet dog. If they are supposed to be the same then why? Are those dogs nervy?
> 
> 
> Edit: I also don't see it as a trust thing. Do you really think the dog understands that you said it okay?


So what do you do if your dog has to stay over night or for a couple days at the vet? Muzzle the whole time?


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

IN my experience, it's all a crap shoot. You get what you get. Sure, you can "stack the odds in your favor" by going to a reputable breeder, but things happen. 
Especially with a puppy, they change so much, I just don't see how they can pick a pup for you and it be exactly what you want. Or maybe, there again I'm just unlucky. 
I've gotten a dog from a BYB who has issues, and a dog from a "reputable breeder" who isn't perfect, nor what I asked for in terms of drive. But, I rose to the occasion, accepted him for who he is, and I try my hardest to train and work him the way he needs. 
Contracts are great, but are essentially useless. 
I think it's great for some if the breeder stands behind their dogs, but ultimately you have the dog and unfortunately you are the one that has to deal with whatever happens. 
It's all part of dog ownership. 
From both of my experiences I have learned a lot, and I most likely will not purchase another puppy ever again, no matter who it is from. 
One nervy or sick dog isn't going to stop some from breeding or even evaluating their stock. I know that people believe that "reputable breeders" breed to better the breed, but I see more and more people breeding for money. 
I wish you well with your pup.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> Honestly. Yes. Lots of police dogs are nervy. Sorry. My last practice had the contract with 4 local LE K-9 units. And yes some if the dogs were of very poor temperament. It's the truth. Police dog does not mean good dog.
> 
> But the good ones, their handler could restrain them. And we could do what was needed without a muzzle.
> 
> Now, that is not to say if we had to hospitalize one it would be the same. Different story. But if the dog is stable and the handler is there telling them to "chill" then they should. Nothing a vet does during a normal routine exam is soooooo painful and scary that a stable dog should react over aggressively. Rude yes. But again, if your dog trusts you, why should they be allowed to overrule you and be aggressive when you tell them not to?



I'm not going to add anything else, as I don't think it would go anywhere other than frustration for both of us. Just know that I now hate you for disagreeing with me


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

gsdsar said:


> No offense, but this is something I heartily disagree with. As someone in the field. And as someone who has had some great working dogs, not a one has needed muzzling at the vets. Not one. If I tell them to allow it, they allow it.
> 
> I know lots of people are going to disagree with me. But to me, it's a trust issue. My dogs trust I won't put them in a life threatening situation. If I tell my dog not to bite someone, they better **** well not bite them. Sorry.
> 
> ...


Agree with you. It's a matter of trust. I do not understand why some people have so much trouble with their dogs at the vet. Mine tend to treat it like a holiday for the most part. They like the vets, the techs, and they allow whatever I expect them to. I can hand over the lead and say, "Go with her" and they will. Usually at some point treats are given to them. It's just not a scary place.

Even when they are injured or hurting, they tend to understand that we are there to try and fix it. They trust me, and they do not bite the vet or the techs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gsdsar said:


> I have never had a perfect dog, no matter where the dog came from. Every dog has issues, be they big or small, overcome able/ manageable or not. It happens



I agree with this. None of my past or present dogs have been perfect. The dogs I have purchased from breeders have so far been what I wanted and expected and I have not had any major nerve issues. My first GSD was from a good breeder and she was nervy, but I knew that before I even agreed to meet her. She was kind of a basket case but was still a very manageable dog, did a ton of training with her and competed/titled her in several venues (oddly, she wasn't nervy as far as environment, it was more with certain people or just being at home and making her own decisions vs. training or competition where she knew what was expected and preferred being given commands). Both of my current rescue dogs are softer dogs, but are awesome dogs in their own way (one of them does a lot of events such as parades, visiting classrooms, and meeting hundreds of college students twice a year during an exam study break event, and the other dog competes in flyball which is a very chaotic environment).

As for muzzling, all of my dogs accept my touch and handling all over. I do all their grooming including nails, ear cleaning, and have done some uncomfortable things after injury or infection. They might pull away or groan at me, but I've never been snarled at by my own dogs. The animal hospital I use has one vet that gives me the vibe that she is nervous around adult male GSDs. I've never had to muzzle my adult GSD, but if I get that vibe, I will loop the leash around his muzzle and hold it under the chin while she is doing whatever she is doing. I am not the slightest bit afraid of my dog or worried he would growl or fight me, but he *is* the sort of dog that picks up on when someone else is nervous of him. When I leash-muzzle him, it gives me more control and I get the vibe that the vet is less nervous about touching him or doing something that might be painful to him. Two of my dogs have been at the animal hospital overnight for procedures and had no issues and *all* of my dogs have been left at the animal hospital a full day for prelim or OFA x-rays. I also have my sister and her fiancee stay at my house and take care of my dogs for me. How other people handle their dogs at the vet or for grooming and what criteria they have for strangers handlng their dogs is entirely up to them, it really makes no difference to me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I had to leave Karlo with complete strangers for two weeks! He was sick so not in his right frame of mind, but I do know that the muzzle was used whenever he was handled. It protected the people vetting him and gave him that level of vulnerability that he knew he could not bite, so submitted instead of trying to keep them from doing what they had to do. 
I do believe a muzzle is a calming feeling now and then. When he was under twilight sedation for his prelim hip/elbow xrays, we muzzled him. I took it off for a minute while we waited for the films to develop(he was on his back in the cradle) and he started fussing. I put the muzzle back on and he relaxed.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

mycobraracr said:


> I'm not going to add anything else, as I don't think it would go anywhere other than frustration for both of us. Just know that I now hate you for disagreeing with me



Bwahahaha!!! It's all good. Adults can disagree and still like each other. Oh wait you hate me now. Never mind!!! LOL


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> I had to leave Karlo with complete strangers for two weeks! He was sick so not in his right frame of mind, but I do know that the muzzle was used whenever he was handled. It protected the people vetting him and gave him that level of vulnerability that he knew he could not bite, so submitted instead of trying to keep them from doing what they had to do.
> I do believe a muzzle is a calming feeling now and then. When he was under twilight sedation for his prelim hip/elbow xrays, we muzzled him. I took it off for a minute while we waited for the films to develop(he was on his back in the cradle) and he started fussing. I put the muzzle back on and he relaxed.



Onyx, yes a hospitalized dog is a whole different story. You are not there, they feel horrible, it's scary. I get that. 

Same with a dog that is in true pain, hit by car, huge laceration, broken bone. Those types of things make all bets off. 

And please no one think I judge. I don't. Like I have said before. None if my dogs are perfect. They each have issues. This is just not one of them.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I agree with this. None of my past or present dogs have been perfect. The dogs I have purchased from breeders have so far been what I wanted and expected and I have not had any major nerve issues. My first GSD was from a good breeder and she was nervy, but I knew that before I even agreed to meet her. She was kind of a basket case but was still a very manageable dog, did a ton of training with her and competed/titled her in several venues (oddly, she wasn't nervy as far as environment, it was more with certain people or just being at home and making her own decisions vs. training or competition where she knew what was expected and preferred being given commands). Both of my current rescue dogs are softer dogs, but are awesome dogs in their own way (one of them does a lot of events such as parades, visiting classrooms, and meeting hundreds of college students twice a year during an exam study break event, and the other dog competes in flyball which is a very chaotic environment).
> 
> As for muzzling, all of my dogs accept my touch and handling all over. I do all their grooming including nails, ear cleaning, and have done some uncomfortable things after injury or infection. They might pull away or groan at me, but I've never been snarled at by my own dogs. *The animal hospital I use has one vet that gives me the vibe that she is nervous around adult male GSDs*. I've never had to muzzle my adult GSD, but if I get that vibe, I will loop the leash around his muzzle and hold it under the chin while she is doing whatever she is doing. I am not the slightest bit afraid of my dog or worried he would growl or fight me, but he *is* the sort of dog that picks up on when someone else is nervous of him. When I leash-muzzle him, it gives me more control and I get the vibe that the vet is less nervous about touching him or doing something that might be painful to him. Two of my dogs have been at the animal hospital overnight for procedures and had no issues and *all* of my dogs have been left at the animal hospital a full day for prelim or OFA x-rays. I also have my sister and her fiancee stay at my house and take care of my dogs for me. How other people handle their dogs at the vet or for grooming and what criteria they have for strangers handlng their dogs is entirely up to them, it really makes no difference to me.


Agree with this, had this happen with Ranger. Our vet office has three docs, two are great with him, the third, who's only treated him once, was admittedly intimidated by him and asked if we mind if a muzzle was used, we agreed. I don't think he needed one, he did great, but she was visibly nervous and if it would help her do her job, then no problem.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> No offense, but this is something I heartily disagree with. As someone in the field. And as someone who has had some great working dogs, not a one has needed muzzling at the vets. Not one. If I tell them to allow it, they allow it.
> 
> I know lots of people are going to disagree with me. But to me, it's a trust issue. My dogs trust I won't put them in a life threatening situation. If I tell my dog not to bite someone, they better **** well not bite them. Sorry.
> 
> ...


100% agree with this, getting a simple exam (just feeling, listening to the heart, etc) should not warrant needing a muzzle, and I would question the stability of that dog if so. I am the exact same way with my dogs, if I say biting is unacceptable, it's completely unacceptable in any situation I say. I have 2 shepherds (the GSD is from a good breeder so I did take the poll) with less than stellar nerves and both have had to stay at the vet (one before I got him, one while I was still in school) and neither needed muzzled. I have handled them all over from day one (and 2 I did not get as puppies) and I will restrain/hug them, etc so even if the nerve base isn't there they are comfortable being touched somewhere other than just petted on the head or back.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

No offense taken here. Good thing I don't muzzle *my* dogs at the vet. 






gsdsar said:


> No offense, but this is something I heartily disagree with. As someone in the field. And as someone who has had some great working dogs, not a one has needed muzzling at the vets. Not one. If I tell them to allow it, they allow it.
> 
> I know lots of people are going to disagree with me. But to me, it's a trust issue. My dogs trust I won't put them in a life threatening situation. If I tell my dog not to bite someone, they better **** well not bite them. Sorry.
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

O.k.

No you aren't being fair.

First you're implying your dog is bad enough that you mention you don't want to give him back.....you wouldn't post that of you weren't thinking of it.

Secondly you've posted who the breeder is many times and your dogs full registered name.

It's in the go pro videos you posted the other day. 

Also your comments in the other thread indicate you are feeling unsure about your dog. 

It's entirely possible that the problem here is you are being impatient.

No offense of course.





Montu said:


> gsdsar!
> 
> Exactly!
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here. Your words.

What is it you want then?

People on this board to validate a perception you have that Klaus has a temperament problem?

What do you want?

You don't see a solution? Well that sounds like the problem more then anything.

JMHO.



Montu said:


> <snipped> I would contact the breeder but am not interested in returning him so *I don't see a solution*.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Pups are a crap shoot. If the dog is a total crapper the breeder should replace if its WL and there is a workability guarentee.
Sounds like what you have probably falls into the mediocre category. Dog can put out the work on the field but maybe can be a pain here and there in day to day life. 

Thats why all pups are crap shoots. You want a reasonably sure thing, you buy a young adult for 4-6k.

Just an addendum, if my dog was ok with getting needled in the arse by a stranger and having a thermometer shoved up his rear end I would question whether he was what I wanted. 

I have had an extremely sharp dog that required muzzling at the vet. She was there for surgery overnight, since the vet had a basic clue about working dogs we did not have a problem.


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

The truth about the purpose of the thread is simple, this is my first dog from a breeder ..I want to know how common this type of problem is, if its common then fine I guess that's just my luck and my breeder is within the norm...if it's uncommon that indicates she may not be a good breeder after all.

No I haven't thought of giving him back, he is a loving well behaved dog ...way better house manners than most 1 year olds..he has this problem which is something I was hoping to avoid by getting a well bred dog however on what planet is that a reason to give him? 

The only reason I brought it up is because I know most breeders will want to replace the dog or just take the dog back... If you ask me what I would like her to do I would say help train him and possibly issue a partial refund or help pay for training directly. Is that reasonable should I ask her and then post the response here?


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

I would like to add that his problem doesn't start with being poked by a needle ...at the vet it starts the moment we are in the room and his approached. He is also not reacting out of confidence ..he is hyper ventilating and it is obvious he is terrified.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Montu said:


> The truth about the purpose of the thread is simple, this is my first dog from a breeder ..I want to know how common this type of problem is, if its common then fine I guess that's just my luck and my breeder is within the norm...if it's uncommon that indicates she may not be a good breeder after all.
> 
> No I haven't thought of giving him back, he is a loving well behaved dog ...way better house manners than most 1 year olds..he has this problem which is something I was hoping to avoid by getting a well bred dog however on what planet is that a reason to give him?
> 
> The only reason I brought it up is because I know most breeders will want to replace the dog or just take the dog back... If you ask me what I would like her to do I would say help train him and possibly issue a partial refund or help pay for training directly. Is that reasonable should I ask her and then post the response here?


My GSD who is not stable was my first dog from a good breeder. I think in general my breeder puts out good dogs, other members own dogs from this breeder, and they are recommended a lot. I got unlucky. 
She is what blitzkrieg probably means by mediocre, can work IPO and actually has tons of drive for all 3 phases but not a lot of courage/confidence/nerves and very low threshold. She is what I would call a pain sometimes for sure.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As I recall you were looking for a dog mostly as a family dog, you were considering an ASL and then decided on a WL. I remember chatting with you about SLs and really, it sounded like that would have been a better fit.

Did you tell the WL breeder you wanted a good IPO bite sport prospect or a dog to do Agility and other sports?

Now you have a WL, they can be a handful and since this is your first "real" GSD it's entirely possible at least part of the problem is you. I say that with humility because I had to learn with Ilda.

Now you have him, you didn't plan on having a national podium level dog in IPO so love Klaus, learn from Klaus and he will learn from you.

This back and forth you have is insecurity on your part and I'm sure he senses it.

Above all, be fair to Klaus.

As far as the vet, you can work on desensitizing or train him to accept a muzzle which is not a bad thing.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...and before you say the breeder isn't good, you should discuss your concerns with her.

I don't know this breeder myself but I recall you did your research. Yes?


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

I told her what I told you, when asked about bite work I said I had some interest in it but did not want that to be the basis of the pairing. We told her ideally this would be a family dog with the ability to do some work for fun. 

She pointed at an upcoming breeding and said "I wouldn't give you one of those pups ..those have to go to working homes etc..."

Honestly I hope I can work him through it and it gets better with age, his training in obdience and bite work will continue. If we can just modify the behavior enough so he could handle the most basic handling by stranger/vet/whoever then he will be perfect for us.




Gwenhwyfair said:


> As I recall you were looking for a dog mostly as a family dog, you were considering an ASL and then decided on a WL. I remember chatting with you about SLs and really, it sounded like that would have been a better fit.
> 
> Did you tell the WL breeder you wanted a good IPO bite sport prospect or a dog to do Agility and other sports?
> 
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Montu said:


> The truth about the purpose of the thread is simple, this is my first dog from a breeder ..I want to know how common this type of problem is, if its common then fine I guess that's just my luck and my breeder is within the norm...if it's uncommon that indicates she may not be a good breeder after all.
> 
> No I haven't thought of giving him back, he is a loving well behaved dog ...way better house manners than most 1 year olds..he has this problem which is something I was hoping to avoid by getting a well bred dog however on what planet is that a reason to give him?
> 
> The only reason I brought it up is because I know most breeders will want to replace the dog or just take the dog back... If you ask me what I would like her to do I would say help train him and possibly issue a partial refund or help pay for training directly. Is that reasonable should I ask her and then post the response here?


It's always the breeder or the dog. It is NEVER a problem with the handler/owner. We have a young dog that we are encouraging to bark and even bite someone with a stick some days, but are irritated that they bark at someone that looks at them and might want to pet them. 

Can this possibly, maybe, have anything to do with the training or handling? Does it have to be the nerves? 

I have a bunch of dogs and they are all ok at the vet. One of my dogs went to my parents nearly ten years ago. When I took this dog to the vet, many times over the course of years, he was fine with me. When my dad took him, he was nervous. Why? Maybe because my dad was raised Christian Scientist, and is nervous about everything medical? Maybe not. But the dog wasn't fearful when I would take him. Is it just possible that we instill in our dogs some of what we are seeing in different venues?

But no. Breeders and dogs are always wrong, the owner/handlers are always right. If an owner wants a dog that can stand on its head and spit nickels and it isn't able to do that, well then, the breeder is not a good breeder. They produce crappy dogs that can't even stand on their heads and spit nickels. 

Maybe, just maybe, the owner of the dog is not giving the dog clear signals about whom it should aggress or should not aggress. And maybe the dog is simply mediocre, can function on the field, but in some aspects is a pain to live with. 

The dog is a year old. The owner is dissing the breeder because it isn't perfect it every way, just most ways. They are going to keep him. I almost wish they wouldn't.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

O.k. So it sounds like that is what you got. The trainers at your club said he was mostly fine, right? I'm not an expert but he looked to be engaged and biting the sleeve with a good full bite? 

Talk to your trainers about the other problems too. Let them help you. They know your dog better then those of us who don't get to see him.

Talk to your breeder too. I revisited her website and she sounds good, you visited her and researched so let her help too, she will know her lines, like Sue said.

And .... Have fun with him! 

As others have said there is no such a thing as a perfect dog or perfect owner.....





Montu said:


> I told her what I told you, when asked about bite work I said I had some interest in it but did not want that to be the basis of the pairing.* We told her ideally this would be a family dog with the ability to do some work for fun. *
> 
> She pointed at an upcoming breeding and said "I wouldn't give you one of those pups ..those have to go to working homes etc..."
> 
> Honestly I hope I can work him through it and it gets better with age, his training in obdience and bite work will continue. If we can just modify the behavior enough so he could handle the most basic handling by stranger/vet/whoever then he will be perfect for us.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sue. :thumbup:


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

Guys thanks for the input there has been useful information.

Selzer why so defensive? I know it can be me and my wife..but I know our other dog is fine (better now then ever) I also know that I didn't consider him to have weak nerves until my trainers both said it was their opinion that it was a tempermrnt thing.

Also his bad vet behavior actually started prior to bite work... We are hoping that maybe just maybe bite work and agiltiy can help build him up and possibly help....does anyone have input on that?

Thanks..


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I understand Sue's frustration, you've been clearly implying the breeder may not be good. 

Yeah bite sport guys will say that, especially if he was not coming from a strong working litter, it's a matter of what level they take their dogs to. In comparison..

Having said that, with the vet, there have been some threads on that. When you can try looking them up.

Your best bet is taking him there, working him at the office, lots of positives, desensitizing but not pushing him over his thresholds. So baby step it, build confidence.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

And you keep implying that Montu is the problem. Why?

PS. I hope all goes well with your treatments. In spite of petty differences on here I genuinely hope all goes well for you.





Gwenhwyfair said:


> I understand Sue's frustration, you've been clearly implying the breeder may not be good.
> 
> Yeah bite sport guys will say that, especially if he was not coming from a strong working litter.
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

If it's so petty why do you engage in these threads?

Montu started this thread with some strong implications about his dog and the breeder and then contradicted himself. Dog is bad, breeder is bad, dog is good, mostly. Also I recalled some of the back story when he was looking for a dog which wasn't coming through, therefore not fair to the breeder.

He didn't ask for a top IPO dog.

There is context here that matters.

Thank you for the well wishes. I'm a tough ole gal.

With that stupid time change, I have to get up early....Sue glass of red!

Night. 




Jack's Dad said:


> And you keep implying that Montu is the problem. Why?
> 
> PS. I hope all goes well with your treatments. In spite of petty differences on here I genuinely hope all goes well for you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Montu said:


> Guys thanks for the input there has been useful information.
> 
> Selzer why so defensive? I know it can be me and my wife..but I know our other dog is fine (better now then ever) I also know that I didn't consider him to have weak nerves until my trainers both said it was their opinion that it was a tempermrnt thing.
> 
> ...


If it's nerves or temperament, how long before they decide bite work isn't for the dog? Maybe just do agility for fun and see if the dog is happy with that.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...and good luck Montu. 

Usually you get the dog you need, ya know?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *If it's so petty why do you engage in these threads?*
> 
> Montu started this thread with some strong implications about his dog and the breeder and then contradicted himself. Dog is bad, breeder is bad, dog is good, mostly. Also I recalled some of the back story when he was looking for a dog which wasn't coming through, therefore not fair to the breeder.
> 
> ...


Entertainment value. And you?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah, but I wouldn't dismiss so many other posters who invest time, energy and research, not to mention, learning and expressing their thoughts here......that would be unfair. How do thou judge the value of others input? 

:angel:




Jack's Dad said:


> Entertainment value. And you?


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

What am I contradicting? I told you what his issues are.

I never said he was good with strangers then that he was bad...

Can you not believe he is obedient but bad at the vet or with strangers?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've already pointed the contradictions out, regarding your insecurity about Klaus. It's right there in your first post, last paragraph.

It's getting late and at this point I agree with Sue. 100%


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Ah, but I wouldn't dismiss so many other posters who invest time, energy and research, not to mention, learning and expressing their thoughts here......that would be unfair. How do thou judge the value of others input?
> 
> :angel:


I was being sarcastic because I don't think it is your job to question me on why or what threads I choose to post in.

I don't try to tell you where or what to post and I would appreciate the same courtesy.


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

Good night...we clearly aren't understanding each other ..probably my fault for writing the way I did.

I meant there was no solution with the breeder not klaus.

Kinda like when fed ex screwed up our pet oil portrait ...there's no fixing it ...money back doesn't fix it.

I don't expect the breeder to do anything but you are right, I should give her the chance.

This is not saying I don't think I can work Klaus through this and make it better ..that's saying temperament is temperament right? What's a breeder to do after the fact? 

In fact what should I expect a breeder to do?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If its as bad as it sounds video the behavior and send it to the breeder. Usually a dog that can handle biting the helper is not a complete nervebag and should make a decent pet.

If it bothers you enough replace the dog, only you can decide whats best for you.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Here's the thing...I don't think anyone here is wrong. It's very, very hard to evaluate a dog's nerves without having seen him in person, and with him being as young as he is. 

Speaking as someone who's dealt with similar (but milder) issues with her own dog, I will say that the owner can have a lot to do with it. Not all strong nerved dogs are made the same, and there can still be a variation in thresholds, drives, clarity, etc. I was talking to a friend a few days ago about the similarities in our two working bred Shepherds (I have an IPO bred GSD, she has a KNPV bred Dutchie) and we observed that a lot of their craziness was the result of how we raised them. When you take a high drive, med/low threshold, obsessive, relentless, highly exuberant dog, you get a number of ways that those traits can manifest (especially as the dog's growing). When my dog was young I encouraged and discouraged a lot of things I shouldn't have (whether it was intentionally or unintentionally) and just didn't realize what kind of dog I'd be getting (in regards to drive, defensiveness, intensity, etc.).

Your dog is primarily DDR lines, right? I know a couple people with mostly DDR dogs that are more naturally suspicious and go through phases where they decidedly dislike men, eye contact, people in sunglasses, etc. I met one such dog in person right when he was around 1 year of age and very defensive around men. I saw him again a couple years ago as a 4 year old and he was comfortable, easy going, and an alert, social, and stable dog (kudos to his owner for her incredible management and training). 

When my own GSD was around a year old, he didn't just growl at me, he bit me for touching his rear. He's an extremely possessive dog and was touch sensitive about certain parts, and right around adolescence he wouldn't allow anyone to touch him at certain times of the day or in certain situations. Now? I can manipulate him in any way I wish and make him hold that position without complaint, and he is a completely different dog from the one I had 4-5 years ago. It wasn't even good training on my part, he simply grew out of it, as he did with a large part of his people/dog reactivity. He's still a possessive, defensive, high strung, exuberant/excitable dog, but at this point I've learned enough about my dog and myself to know that the problem was me, and the fact that I didn't really get the dog I was expecting (by NO fault of the breeder - first dog, first working bred GSD, I simply wasn't mentally prepared). I've also learned to adjust my idea of what a good working bred GSD is (and this is not directed to anyone, just a thought because that was part of my own problem).

Temperament/nerves are innate, but a dog can still be molded in so many ways. Work with the dog you have, give him a chance, and try not to put too many expectations on him  A breeder can provide you with amazing foundations in a dog but a large part of how he turns out is up to you (and chance). I don't know if your situation is anything like what mine was, and if it is a long term nerve strength issue...but your dog is far from fully mature at this stage, so hang in there and best of luck! Hopefully the breeder can provide you with more insight should you contact her about this.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've never told you to not post.

I'm commenting on the fact that when you do post, you very often do so by making negative comments about the content on this board.

So my response is - then why are you posting here? Not don't post here, buy why?




Jack's Dad said:


> I was being sarcastic because I don't think it is your job to question me on why or what threads I choose to post in.
> 
> I don't try to tell you where or what to post and I would appreciate the same courtesy.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I think we are understanding each other.....

You are having doubts that are starting to overwhelm you. Then the trainers at the IPO club made some comments that were supportive of your doubts, but yet were over all positive about Klaus.

In bold, I appreciate that. 

If I were you I would give her a call and just tell her what's going on, ask what her thoughts are and based on that go from there. What you can expect is she will be supportive, helpful and give you guidance (hopefully). It sounds like you and she have been in touch about Klaus over this past year so you have a good communication. 

I said it earlier that we, that includes me, cannot really judge what is going on with your dog on this forum.

Having said that, what Blitz said above is true, because Klaus seemed to be doing a decent job with his bite work. The trainers who have hands on with him are willing to work him. These are good signs. Yes you can work through some temperament issues with training. It depends on the severity and impact the problem has on your dog and your life. 

You don't need him to be like a super police patrol K9. You only wanted to do bite work as a sport and not at a high level. He's not running across a field to bite a child. He's good with the family. The vet problem you can find ways to desensitize and/or muzzle him. It's not something he needs to do every day.

IMHO...again I'm not there and Klaus is your dog, but it sounds he has some *rough* edges but nothing that you can't learn how to deal with. 

German Shepherds aren't the easiest dogs, especially when get a dog with the drives to work. 

They do go through some crazy stages in maturation, as others here, myself included, have attested to.

Hang in there, don't get too discouraged, unlike a painting, Klaus colors can change. 




Montu said:


> Good night...we clearly aren't understanding each other ..probably my fault for writing the way I did.
> 
> I meant there was no solution with the breeder not klaus.
> 
> ...


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

Thanks guys,

Part of it (me being concerned and posting on the board) is that I really did want to know how common these issues are, and now I do feel better about it knowing its fairly common and that there is good odds that with continued training we can improve the situation.

By the way, him growling at us was probably just a teenager thing..he already seems to be over it and is back to just looking uncomfortable when we touch his rear...this is what concerned me the most (and got me to post) but realize the 2 day occurrence did not mean things were going to go down hill.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Pretty sure I found your pup's pedigree. Looks like there's a sven/sindy pairing a few generations back in it. Isn't this specific pairing known to produce a lot of temperament issues? Pretty sure it's been discussed here in the past.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

No dog is perfect any more than a human is perfect

Delgado is dog reactive; he's a rock star on good days and horrible on bad days. On the other hand, nerves of steel and healthy as a horse. He's my rock steady dog I'd trust in any situation, dogs are his only downfall and even then I know now his threshold and we work within in.

Do I call him perfect, no. But I don't blame his breeder, she took two very good pedigrees (corroborated by other breeders I have a lot of respect for) and mashed them together. I met his mother, I met his half-sister, and I'm in contact with the owner of his brother. I've learned a lot about him and his pedigree and I don't blame it, I blame myself for part of the issue as I made handler errors looking back and I see him as the dog in front of me not just a list of names.

Pedigree is important, but it's not everything. BTW - Delgado is a DDR/Czech/WG working line GSD.


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

Yes, looking back if i knew what was going to happen I would have upped the socialization, we socialized him but at the time he remained extremely neutral and the trainer we had at the time (puppy classes) was not worried about it. We followed the breeders advise to be cautious on taking him out before all his shots were completed but looking back I think it would have been worth the risk after his 2nd round... 

Again the only reason I jumped into questioning the breeding was because of the evaluations given by trainers, and being my first breeder experience I simply wanted to know is this a breeder thing or not?

One more thing I would just like to add about him ..he is nervous around other dogs in a greeting / play environment..although that has gotten ALOT better...as long as the other dog is calm he will be fine..if the other dog is being crazy he could Nip. I honestly am not concerned about it considering he can do this:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Montu said:


> Yes, looking back if i knew what was going to happen I would have upped the socialization, we socialized him but at the time he remained extremely neutral and the trainer we had at the time (puppy classes) was not worried about it. We followed the breeders advise to be cautious on taking him out before all his shots were completed but looking back I think it would have been worth the risk after his 2nd round...


I highly doubt that taking him out and socializing after his 2nd set of shots instead of waiting until fully vaccinated has anything to do with these issues. It probably wouldn't have changed a thing.

And a neutral dog is the best type of dog (imo). When I have a young dog, he or she's rewarded for focusing on me when out and about and not focusing on what's going on around him.



Montu said:


> One more thing I would just like to add about him ..he is nervous around other dogs in a greeting / play environment..although that has gotten ALOT better...as long as the other dog is calm he will be fine..if the other dog is being crazy he could Nip. I honestly am not concerned about it considering he can do this:


If those type of situations makes him nervous, don't put him in them. Set him up for success. My dogs don't like playing with strange dogs either. It serves no purpose.


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> I highly doubt that taking him out and socializing after his 2nd set of shots instead of waiting until fully vaccinated has anything to do with these issues. It probably wouldn't have changed a thing.
> 
> And a neutral dog is the best type of dog (imo). When I have a young dog, he or she's rewarded for focusing on me when out and about and not focusing on what's going on around him.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I do want him to be neutral and back then I was extremely happy that he was.


Also I'm not putting him in those situations other than with the trainer, the reason I want him to be able to put up with a bad dog is because I want to minimize the chances of some bad dog owner letting their dog bumb rush him and get bit. That's all. Right now I can just have him heel passed a lunging dog..which is perfect.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Montu said:


> Thanks, I do want him to be neutral and back then I was extremely happy that he was.
> 
> 
> Also I'm not putting him in those situations other than with the trainer, the reason I want him to be able to put up with a bad dog is because I want to minimize the chances of some bad dog owner letting their dog bumb rush him and get bit. That's all. Right now I can just have him heel passed a lunging dog..which is perfect.


If a dog rushes you, stay calm, put your dog behind you, and kick the charging dog. That's should be more than enough to back most dogs off. If you're not comfortable kicking a loose dog, they sell dog deterrent sprays. If you want something stronger, bring pepper spray. There are plenty of options out there to help you protect your dog in those type of situations.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah, it's fairly common. I went through that learning curve with Ilda and I'm sure she's easier then a WL too. When she started barking at strangers I didn't know what the heck was going on and was afraid she might bite. (she never did).

I upped her training, worked on her handler focus (which I was newbie at so it took longer) under the guidance of good IPO trainers and now 4 years later she's my pride and joy. The teenage weirdness a long past memory now.

I think had Ilda been with an experienced trainer they would have nipped all these issues in the bud. Some of her problems continued for a time because I was clueless about how to handle it.

BTW - I say this with all good intentions and it has been said to me, so I'm not being mean to you. 

Quit complainin' and get Trainin' 

As for the pedigree, good question to ask your breeder.

Best of luck and my offer still stands, I'll take Klaus off your hands....  

He's a good looking boy who sounds like he will be a good all around kind of GSD, loves his family, likes to do some bite work, plays with the kids, neutral or aloof to strangers. My kind of pup. 



Montu said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> Part of it (me being concerned and posting on the board) is that I really did want to know how common these issues are, and now I do feel better about it knowing its fairly common and that there is good odds that with continued training we can improve the situation.
> 
> By the way, him growling at us was probably just a teenager thing..he already seems to be over it and is back to just looking uncomfortable when we touch his rear...this is what concerned me the most (and got me to post) but realize the 2 day occurrence did not mean things were going to go down hill.


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

Thanks again, and no amount of money can buy him its just frustrating some times ya know?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes I sure do know.  German Shepherds are not always easy dogs, but they are so worth it. 

There were times with Ilda where I wondered "what the heck did I get myself into". The flip side is I have learned so much from her. Now, hopefully some day I'll be able to be better owner/trainer for a dog like Klaus!

You have every right to share that frustration here too. 

It all got wonky because of the breeder side of things.

It really sounds like for the most part you are on the right track with him. Also don't take what the IPO guys at the club say too much to heart. Some of them are good at coaching newbies but some of them are super serious and have super serious dogs so they tend to forget what it was like being new to it all. 

(and drat....thought I'd get me a nice lookin' sable out of this.  )



Montu said:


> Thanks again, and no amount of money can buy him *its just frustrating some times ya know*?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Montu, does your breeder train her dogs with the same folks you do?


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Montu, does your breeder train her dogs with the same folks you do?


No, unfortunately she actually ships her dogs out to Germany for training.

My trainer does have a lot of experience with her dogs though...and while going there I have run into a few dogs from her (none with similar issues) 

The pairing he is from only ever yielded 2 litters and both litters were only 2 pups if i'm not mistaken, she kept 2 for her self so there is only one other dog out there that was placed in a home. 

She retired the damm this year.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

We preach over and over that buying a puppy is a crap shoot.

We emphasize that IPO titles are IMPORTANT.

We acknowledge that breeders should know their dogs, work their dogs and live with their dogs.

Why are we surprised when puppies from big commercial kennels where these are not the normal practices and 6 to 8 litters or even more are produced in a year do not fit the ideal we thought we were going to get????

Socialization is not a cure for genetics. Socialization is nice, but does not replace genetics.

It sounds like you have a nice pup, not 110% but not a nerve bag....again, pups are a crap shoot, and you have to load the dice.

Lee


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> If a dog rushes you, stay calm, put your dog behind you, and kick the charging dog. That's should be more than enough to back most dogs off. If you're not comfortable kicking a loose dog, they sell dog deterrent sprays. If you want something stronger, bring pepper spray. There are plenty of options out there to help you protect your dog in those type of situations.


dont think kicking the dog is a great idea, esp if it is a doberman, rottie, or similar type dogs. sprays would seem to be the best.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My dogs don't growl at me, that would freak me out. And my dogs are fine at the vet. But, they are different lines, different dogs altogether. And read the site for a while and you will see how common your complaints actually are. In fact, your dog seems to be doing remarkably well in most aspects. This seems to be within the age when a whole lot of people turn to altering the dog because of behavior issues. 

He is young, and he needs good guidance, exercise, training. He needs that confidence building stuff, like agility, bitework, tug, etc. But he also need a lot of positive feedback from you, he needs to be set up to succeed and praised for it. 

The vet is worrisome. It could be that the dog is taking his cues from you, or from the vet. They can smell fear and anxiety, that we can't register at all. Chew some mint come, it comes out in our breath -- if we are the problem. It could be the vet. It can also be the charged atmosphere in any vet clinic, a cat yeowling, a dog whining, people going by, someone sitting there helpless with her failing animal -- think of it like a quiddich game to a bunch of dementors. The dog is being bambarded by a lot of negative energy and emotions that he can feel. If the dog has perfect trust in you, and you are very confident and unworried, your dog ought to be able to manage well, even in that situation. But if the vet is a hiding his GSD-phobia, the dog may be tuning in on that, and it's like something screaming in his head -- THIS GUY IS GOING TO KILL ME!!!

If you think that it is more lack of exposure, or your own anxiety of his behavior that is increasing his reaction, then it makes sense to go there once or twice a week just for a walk through, a walk-through and to be weighed, to drop a stool sample, to have a treat dropped for him, to set up an appointment, and so forth. These visits are in and out, and totally non-confrontational, no big deal. 

Getting the dog comfortable with the vet and vet office can be really helpful when your dog is sick or injured, so that he isn't freaking out just because of where he is, and so that the people have a measure of what he is like normally.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The vet/muzzle discussion is sort of off topic....... I have owned working lines for 30 years and I tend to own strong, dominant, pushy dogs. In those 30 years I have NEVER had to muzzle a dog for my vet. I do, though, use vets that are dog smart and not wussy foo foo vets that really need to find another profession. 

OP, as everyone has said, puppies are a crap shoot. Conscientious breeders try very very hard not to produce health and temperament issues, but sometimes genetics and nature don't cooperate. Talk to your breeder. She/he should be the best resource for the dogs they produce.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well I'm confused? So is this a thread looking for solutions or is this a thread bashing a breeder?

Best bred dog in the world can be turned into a basket case if "something" goes wrong in the dogs upbringing. 

A WL line dog I expect "issues" myself, how severe they are and how quickly the dog can be turned around...determines how "solid" a dog is in my view.

I didn't vote because I don't care what the dogs background or history is myself because I train them all the same way!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Well I'm confused? So is this a thread looking for solutions or is this a thread bashing a breeder?
> 
> Best bred dog in the world can be turned into a basket case if "something" goes wrong in the dogs upbringing.
> 
> ...


I disagree Chip. A well bred dog with a solid nerve base will not become a basket case unless maybe it was tortured or something.

And I don't know why the myth about working line dogs and "issues" continues.

Some have issues as do other lines. It's a dog by dog thing.

While I'm at it. All kinds of breeders including the reputable ( whatever they are) ones will produce a poor specimen at sometime and some people just can't handle this type of dog. GSDs.

Can't tell which is Montu's case over the internet but I would lean toward the view of the IPO trainers.

People are regularly told to take their problem dogs to the nearest IPO club. However in this thread some think the trainers don't seem to know what they are looking at.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog doesn't sound like a basket case. 

It sounds like the dog has some areas which need improvement.

I do not know the IPO trainers, maybe they are good, maybe they are not so good, maybe they can accurately determine whether or not this is a temperament issue. And, maybe like vets who don't tell people that their dog is overweight, they don't want to lose a customer.

There is not much we can do about genetic weakness in temperament. We can get good at managing the environment to make the dog less anxious overall. 

Either socialization, training/bonding with the owner, and leadership matters or it doesn't. Maybe we can throw all that out the window. But we do put good emphasis on it. If this stuff does matter, than a pup that has experienced a lack in one of these may develop some behaviors that we might want to address. If we can look at what we are doing or not doing, and by making a change in our behavior, impact the dog, then the problem does have a solution. 

In any case, there is nothing to lose in investigating this avenue fully. The other street is a dead end.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jack's Dad said:


> I disagree Chip. A well bred dog with a solid nerve base will not become a basket case unless maybe it was tortured or something.
> 
> And I don't know why the myth about working line dogs and "issues" continues.
> 
> ...


Aww now I've stirred up the WL dog defenders! Rest assured..I'm not a detractor! They are my choice in GSD's despite the fact that. I wound up with a 116 lbs of OS WL GSD with Rank Drive.people aggression issue after 7 months of no problems in my living room!!!

But I am a "pet person" with a decade of real dog experience under my belt! Still had uh "issues" so are you speaking as "pet person" or an "experienced WL GSD owner???

For myself my next WL GSD dog ...I don't expect problems but you can bet I'll keep a much tighter rein on him!

And no I don't do IPO dogs or protection trained dogs but if I did...I would "expect" them not behave like 'nut jobs in public" or what good are they if they have to stay home??

No disrespect to the OP intended but I think, those questions are pertinent to the discussion at hand?


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

help me understand..... with human genetics.... anything and everything can (and does) go wrong. Severe genetic and chromosomal abnormalities occur all the time. German Shepherd Breeders can make good choices for breedings and can have a flawless history. But...... there are no guarantees regarding genetics... not in humans or German shepherds... Geezzzzz! Would it be acceptable to blame a set of parents for creating an infant with a genetic abnormality??? Anyone who thinks breeders can guarantee ANYTHING related to hips/ elbows/drive/nerves, etc. is pitifully naive... It doesn't work that way. We choose breeders with good reputations because we want exceptional dogs..... Why do we expect perfect dogs but if we produce an "imperfect" human infant we don't blame the parents for creating that " imperfect" child???? Or am I missing something here?


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## Aimeanda (Aug 14, 2014)

While expecting "perfect" dogs from a breeder is not reasonable, human "breeding" and good dog breeding are very different. In dogs bred by good breeders, the dam and sire are chosen specifically for health, temperament, drive, etc and to compliment each other. They are also chosen based on pedigree and how each parents' pedigree will add to the puppy and compliment each other. The outcomes of each breeding are evaluated and should dictate future breedings. 

Humans "breed" more like a backyard breeder would breed. They're basically thrown together willy-nilly without regard for health, temperament or pedigree.

So while in either case genetics can be a crapshoot, it's somewhat more controllable when breeding is done systematically as it is with a good dog breeder.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jake and Elwood said:


> help me understand..... with human genetics.... anything and everything can (and does) go wrong. Severe genetic and chromosomal abnormalities occur all the time. German Shepherd Breeders can make good choices for breedings and can have a flawless history. But...... there are no guarantees regarding genetics... not in humans or German shepherds... Geezzzzz! Would it be acceptable to blame a set of parents for creating an infant with a genetic abnormality??? Anyone who thinks breeders can guarantee ANYTHING related to hips/ elbows/drive/nerves, etc. is pitifully naive... It doesn't work that way. We choose breeders with good reputations because we want exceptional dogs..... Why do we expect perfect dogs but if we produce an "imperfect" human infant we don't blame the parents for creating that " imperfect" child???? Or am I missing something here?


I think it isn't very helpful to compare the breeding of dogs to how humans reproduce. Human genetics should be an out cross every time. Yes, yes, people used to marry cousins at one point. But it is uncommon for us to go back in our parent's ancestry and find an individual listed more than once. How many generations would we have to go back?

With purebred dogs this simply isn't the case. When we go back 4, 5, 6, 7 generations we may see the same dog 8 or 12 or even more times. Add that to the fact that we are dealing with a simpler organism, and we can truly make decisions that can effect overall temperament, health, and structure. Evenso, you are right, there are no guarantees. And yes, sometimes, what is produced IS due to poor choices when it comes to breeding, whether the the breeding is done hap-hazard, or whether the breeding is looking for something in particular to the detriment of other aspects. 

At the same time, I think we are too quick to call something genetic, without seeing the dog, looking at the pedigree, or observing the problem. I think this is unhelpful to people, who it seems for some reason, human nature maybe, always tend to expect the worst case scenario.

Genetic temperament problems are a worst case scenario. I think we should be a little slower to jump to this conclusion. Even little temperament quirks can be genetic. But the idea that a dog has a bad temperament, meaning the breeder is a bad breeder, ought to be based on more than a personality quirk being passed down, or some trait, relatively typical of the breed or of the lines or of the blood lines being present. Bad temperament that suggests bad breeding really ought to be something that seriously effects life with the dog, is irreversible with training/leadership adjustments, etc.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OP did not mean to imply your dog is a basket case! Just a general term I tend to use.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree, it is a dog by dog thing and handler by handler .......

In general, there are so many variables. The dog, the genetics, the training, the handler, the trainer and the quality, or lack of, in all these variables.

Specifically, in bold below, which trainers and comments in this thread are you referring to?



Jack's Dad said:


> I disagree Chip. A well bred dog with a solid nerve base will not become a basket case unless maybe it was tortured or something.
> 
> And I don't know why the myth about working line dogs and "issues" continues.
> 
> ...


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Montu said:


> I'm wondering how common it is for a generally good breeder to still produce dogs with temperament flaws?
> 
> How many of you spent the time to find a reputable breeder and still ended up with a dog with problems?


I would imagine it happens.

My dog is just what I wanted. She fits that ideal more and more as she gets older. I know going to a breeder - even going to someone I felt was a great breeder - was not a guarantee that she would be all of those things, but to an extent I feel my research paid off.


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