# Should Breeders Title Their Own Dogs.



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

There is another thread about photos of dogs on their way to titles being hijacked from facebook. Someone mentioned that the breeder did not title their own dogs. Does it really make any difference? I would think the experience would be valuable, but not necessary. Someone else like a trainer could do the work. People who breed race horses don't need to be jockeys. They do need to really know horses and genetics, pedigrees etc.. Unless breeders specifically state that they title their own dogs a buyer doesn't know who titled it. Does it matter?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think this follows very closely with the thread asking of only titled dogs should be bred. 

Should breeders TITLE their dogs??? I don't know. Some are breeding working dogs and have no need for a title. If they are training for police work, they don't need a SchH title.

Should breeders WORK their dogs? I certainly think so. If they aren't working and training then how do they know what they have?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I think this follows very closely with the thread asking of only titled dogs should be bred.
> 
> Should breeders TITLE their dogs??? I don't know. Some are breeding working dogs and have no need for a title. If they are training for police work, they don't need a SchH title.
> 
> Should breeders WORK their dogs? I certainly think so. If they aren't working and training then how do they know what they have?


Didn't mean for it to be about titled vs non titled. 
It was meant to assume dogs that are going to be titled. Does it matter if the Breeder themselves are physically envolved. I know of someone who titled in the past but is physically unable to title their own dogs now. It doesn't take away their knowledge of the breed. Still some seem to think if the breeder isn't personally involved it somehow makes a difference.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Speaking for myself and knowing how much I have learned and am learning by training my dogs..... I think breeders should absolutely train/work their dogs. Buy titled or not, but work the dog so that you really have an understanding of that dog.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If they have titled dogs in the past, then as you said, they have gained a lot of knowledge and understanding about dogs in general, and that translates to better being able to judge and understand what they are breeding. That is different from a breeder who has never done any titling, or have titled dogs in, let's say, obedience only, but claim that the dogs they breed will make fine protection dogs. I firmly believe that in order for someone to be able to understand a dog and read a dog well enough to make that kind of claim, whatever venue, they should have extensive hands-on experience working and training and trialing and certifying dogs in that venue. 

Training and breeding Race horses would be different, you are working with mainly one variable: how fast can this horse run? The variables to take into effect when breeding a dog that can track, think, problem solve, fight, discriminate between normal and threat, work all day as in SAR over difficult terrain, herd all day, knowing the boundries of what is allowed and what is not, and so on, are much more complex and variable than just breeding for speed.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well to get OT I think that racing horses has a LOT more to do with than just running fast. However, being a good jockey--because of the size and weight restrictions--elminates many owners and general horse trainers in the first place. And I actually find it quite pathetic some of the big racing owners who do so for the money and status. I do not think you will ever find a good racehorse trainer and breeder that does not have an extensive background in horses in way or another.

So, with all that...I personally would not buy a dog from someone that has not titled extensively in the past. There are reasons why you can no longer do so or choose not to because of limitations, but I think the knowledge base and experience needs to be there to translate into good breeding practices. 

I think of it much like dog training in general--would you pay someone to train you that has never done what you are seeking training in? No? Then why would you pay someone who does not have experience in titling for a puppy?


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

I feel breeders should have titled the dogs they are breeding themselves. That way they know what strengths the dog has, what weaknesses, and what they need to find to compliment the dog.

I know many breeders import a bitch they've never met, bred to a stud they've never met, and there you go, great litter. I just don't think it should be that way.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I personally would rather purchase a pup from a breeder that trains and works but for some reason doesn't title, than purchase from a breeder that purchases titled dogs but doesn't train/work them.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

GSDElsa;2236758;}So said:


> One reason I ask is because for the family companion buying public it's no picnic trying to wade through breeder web sites. I looked for months and I wound up doing very well but with a certain element of chance. Many sites have dogs with titles in their pedigrees but you can't always know where the title came from. I think the vast majority of dogs bred go to family companion homes and in some ways we may need dogs with good temperament and nerve almost more than those who are heavily involved in sport. Most family companion dogs will go into public with not much more than basic obedience. My dog is now going through his fourth obedience class at 4.5 yrs. old. He has no problems but I want to stay on top of it. He also does agility but a lot of dogs get the petco basic obedience and that is it. So if you don't really know pedigrees and the breeder doesn't specifically indicate that they breed, train, and title their own dogs what can people do to hopefully get a even tempered good nerved dog.
> 
> Michelle K.
> So how do you avoid the type you just mentioned? Or maybe I should say how can I avoid them?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I think the vast majority of dogs bred go to family companion homes and in some ways we may need dogs with good temperament and nerve almost more than those who are heavily involved in sport. Most family companion dogs will go into public with not much more than basic obedience.


Amen to that!!! What you said here is so true. A dog that is just a pet has so many times in its life where good nerve is so important and if the owners are a bit inexperienced then they really do need a dog who is solid in the head.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Didn't mean for it to be about titled vs non titled.
> It was meant to assume dogs that are going to be titled. Does it matter if the Breeder themselves are physically envolved. I know of someone who titled in the past but is physically unable to title their own dogs now. It doesn't take away their knowledge of the breed. Still some seem to think if the breeder isn't personally involved it somehow makes a difference.


My comment wasn't in regards to title vs. non titled. My point was that whether they title or not isn't really the issue but whether they work and train their dogs. Which is basically the same thing you said in your reply to me.

Titling a dog doesn't equal knowledge to breed. Working and knowing the breed is more valuable then titling.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a bitch I did not title. I have others that I did title. There are pros and cons both ways. If you are starting out, it is best to start out with a bitch that is fully grown, so that the conformation, hip and elbows, and temperament check out. Should this dog have sat in in a kennel for two years waiting for you to purchase her and then train and put titles on her? 

I think every breeder should definitely raise puppies, through training and titling of some sort. That gives them experience to pass on to their buyers, if they have issues. It helps them read dogs, and evaluate dogs. I think it is important. But I see no problem with a breeder importing a bitch bred, raised, and trained by someone else. 

What about breeders who send dogs away to be titled? I think it can work as long as there is good communication between the trainer and the owner. People send dogs away to handlers to show the dog. A professional handler can make a big difference. 

I do not believe owning a racehorse is only about how fast a horse runs. Dog owners who have not owned horses sometimes I think think of horses as big dumb animals. But they have personalities, the will to win, strengths, weaknesses, the learn things differently, and training and getting the most out of the horse is a big deal. If all you think of is how fast the horse runs, well you will not go very far in the sport because, the horse may run this fast under this trainer and this jockey, but another training method, or another jockey might be able to get speed out of the horse. The breeder or owner does not NEED to be a jockey or a trainer, but they have to _know _the horses inside out to be able to make the best choices for the horse. Or they have to have a ton of confidence in their trainer/manager to make those decisions. 

I don't think this is a red flag issue. It is just an opportunity to ask more questions and for the breeder to sell themselves and their dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Then the questions begin....which titles are most important? When the title was earned how was it earned? 
I agree with Emoore's post, titles aren't as important as what the breeder is doing with their dogs,
and I would be going with a breeder that is working in the same venues that I would also do-be it herding, SchH, agility or competitive obedience. If I wanted to excel in herding, I would go to a breeder that is experienced in that and breeding dogs that are working/excelling in it. 
Though the GSD is supposed to be a 'jack of all trades' so if they excel in one venue, the others should come just as easily, as biddability/athleticism would show thru.

If I wanted a dog for a working K9 in LE, then I would search out a breeder that is experienced with this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

definitely agree with that. If you want to compete in schutzhund, go with a breeder who has success with their dogs competing in schutzhund. A person can be great with schutzhund dogs, but if they have no experience with herding, how can they help you pick the best pup for that venue? However, if you have tons of experience in the area, know the pedigrees of the sire and dam and see potential there, and then evaluate the litter and choose a pup that seems promising, well that's fine.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> definitely agree with that. If you want to compete in schutzhund, go with a breeder who has success with their dogs competing in schutzhund. A person can be great with schutzhund dogs, but if they have no experience with herding, how can they help you pick the best pup for that venue?


But this brings us back to the "I just want a pet" buyer. If you want a great pet, you shouldn't go to a breeder who breeds pet to pet. But who should you go to?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Every breeder ought to breed great pets. I am sorry, I have a number of dogs, but they are all trained, they all have in house time, they are all pets first and foremost. I suppose if you are training dogs to be police/military dogs, they work with the handler 8-10 hours a day, they do not _have_ to be pets, they can spend the rest of their time properly kenneled. A shepherds dog who works with the shepherd 14-16 hours a day can spend their off hours in a kennel, barn, shed, without negatively affecting the dog -- what does it matter where the dog sleeps. He is a working dog and gets more quality time, exercising his body and brain the maybe two or three of our pets put together. 

But whether you train for schutzhund or herding (sport) or performance sports or protection sports that is just a fraction of your dog's life. Yes, you can take them from training and kennel them and never do a thing with them but training and trialing, but mostly these dogs are pets first, and they are trained in something that they do on weekends, or evenings, or special occasions. 

A pet person, should go to someone who is producing dogs for some purpose, and has some experience in that venue, so they know what it takes to title dogs in the venue. Whether they title every single dog in their kennel themselves, well, that might make sense and it might not.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, every breeder should breed great pets, but they are GSD's after all. GSD's for the most part don't want to be just a companion/housedog. They want adventure and to be kept busy mentally as well as physically. If someone wants a GSD to be less active, they should get an older dog that is already proven in temperament to live a life that is a bit more docile.

GSD Breeders shouldn't be breeding dogs to please that mindset, IMO. There are plenty of other breeds that will be a better fit.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, every breeder should breed great pets, but they are GSD's after all. GSD's for the most part don't want to be just a companion/housedog. They want adventure and to be kept busy mentally as well as physically. If someone wants a GSD to be less active, they should get an older dog that is already proven in temperament to live a life that is a bit more docile.
> 
> GSD Breeders shouldn't be breeding dogs to please that mindset, IMO. There are plenty of other breeds that will be a better fit.


If you are responding to my post, I am confused. Just because you do schutzhund and agility with your dog, doesn't mean the dog is not a house dog, and a pet. Regardless of venue the dogs ought to make good pets. Since everyone else does, Capt. Max was huge on dogs not being kenneled and being family dogs, with pictures of tea parties with the children to prove it. 

I think that different lines are different in that some dogs require more physical and mental exercise regularly, and others need it less. And in a litter, there are different personalities. I do not think people need to go outside the breed to get a pet that is more for a quieter home. I think people need to be clear about what type of pup they are looking for, and breeders should turn people down when they do not have a puppy that fits their needs.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

A house pet for whom, though???? My Ari is an awesome housedog and companion for me, but I have been told by club members they do not think he is appropriate for the average Stouffers Lasagna family.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am not disagreeing with you. 
My post was in regards to the 'pet to pet' aspect.. Pet many times means laid back, inactive...Breeders should not be breeding for the people who want a laid back type dog. Though we see websites over and over stating their dogs are this.
We also see people wanting that type and thats fine if the pup is already alive and available, but that should not be the 'goal' of a GSD breeder to fulfill this type. Like I posted many other breeds to choose from.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, what people WANT, and what is available are generally not on the same page or in the same book. Let's see, people want:

1. a TINY puppy that will grow into a Giant dog that will not eat them out of house and home. 
2. they want a dog that without training, _can_ herd, but will not herd children or cats.
3. they wand a pup that knows at birth, how to sit, down, heel, come, stay, protect them from burglars, track down and round up their lost children, the difference between a robber and a meter-reader, and that babies are sacred and they must be gentle and careful around them.
4. a dog that will not stink and will not shed.

and on and on and on.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Is meeting the requirements (however this might be defined) for a GSD to be a great pet enough to say that a dog is "breed worthy" (which I would define as helping to improve the breed). However that might be defined.

I don't think so as i once owned a great pet female GSD. Smart as a whip, titled in AKC obedience, trained but not titled in tracking and in ScH and did very well in both, totally trustworthy with all kids including strange ones who our son brought over to play, could take her anywhere and very friendly once people were introduced to her, great in the house as well, and even a mascot to a Little League team, etc. Would have been a great brreding dog, right? 

NO - she was a true wreck conformation wise - absolutely looked like the stereotype BYB GSD. No way should she have ever been bred (and she wasn't) even though i would have loved to have her son or daughter. Esp. since she died at 5.5 yo from a brain tumor! Still miss her a lot!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> Well, what people WANT, and what is available are generally not on the same page or in the same book. Let's see, people want:
> 
> 1. a TINY puppy that will grow into a Giant dog that will not eat them out of house and home.
> 2. they want a dog that without training, _can_ herd, but will not herd children or cats.
> ...


Where can I get one like this Selzer.

Seriously, by his breeding mine should be able to do anything. Just because I don't do herding or schutzhund doesn't mean I don't want the temperament and nerve that would allow him to do those things and be a family companion. Not doing sport work or something else doesn't mean he does not get a lot of exercise, he does.

onyx'girl:

I think sometimes the word pet does not go well with the image of GSD's. I myself tend to think of Toy Poodles or something when a person say's their pet dog. Never the less most GSD's are pets.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I believe that all breeders should "work" with their breeding dogs.
*Working* can consist of many variables.
Buying titled dogs or titling the dogs themselves.....equals (IMO) in the breeding equation, if the dogs are breed worthy period.
*There is no better personal satisfaction (as a breeder or owner) than having trained and titled the dog yourself.*
I don't believe that only "titled" dogs should be bred....

All properly bred, genetically sound German Shepherd dogs....*should* be capable of being home companions. *The *key*, is finding the "right puppy" for each home.
All puppies (as with any living creature) are different...."drives, temperament, character, physical strengths...etc..etc"...... a puppy matched for "this" home, may not be a match for "that" home.
*jmo*


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I won't tell breeders what they should or shouldn't do. For me it's just a matter of who I will buy from and who I won't. What bothers me more than anything are breeders that insist up and down they do one thing, and then do something not even close. Going forward, I will probably only consider breeders that train and title dogs on a regular basis and prioritize this, but it doesn't necessarily have to be them that has trained and titled every dog they own from green to SchH3. IMO that is sort of an arbitrary requirement and often unrealistic. The last dog I bought was from breeders who have both train and titled dogs from puppy to SchH3 but the dam of my puppy was imported and had been trained in Europe. Generally I don't have to look at the dogs' titles to know whether the breeder has any clue what they are doing as far as training and titling dogs at the level I'm looking for. The breeders I considered last time around were all people who are known and generally respected, active in their training clubs (not just coming out with a few of their own dogs and dabbling around with them, but hosting the club, doing helper work, filling roles like Training Director, etc).


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