# Bars!



## LuvourGSDs

Hi guys... 

I wonder those of you that fight bar issues, do you mark a down bar in training & your method? 

I have been stopping my forward motion & don't always catch before next jump & going back to fix the bar to resume. Anyway, not sure computing to her & I have a good down so this week at class, trainer had me down her at a knocked bar, wait a few, & go on. I do not want to put any negative with agility or shut her down but want her getting it. She has gotten better but she amps & looses her brain!
Thought about adding some sand in bars? Marking with a down or word (opps)? IKD, up in the air! 

Just wanted some suggestions.


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## gsdheeler

How old is your dog and how far along are you in training? Big question is why is your dog dropping bars. My older dog usually dropped a bar or two every run, I had to really take a hard look at my handling and found I was the cause about half the time.
I also had blood work done and found he had low Thyroid levels.
I did find with him that if I kept my mouth shut unless I really needed to use a vocal he kept bars up. That's what worked with him.


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## LuvourGSDs

Hi, She will be 4 in Mar. Been showing in AKC agility. She jumps 24" & we are in masters std but have struggled in jww due to fast dog & I know lack of my handling/cueing. I normally do lots of rear crosses & yep late at times & trying to use some fronts to slow her or cue better at times. She is long body, long tail, & BC amped on a course. So bars a combo of her & I.

Why I am asking about marking it cause I never have & feel biting us in the butt. 

Thanks!


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## LuvourGSDs

Ok, nobody posts here anymore? 
I know I have been off for awhile but geez, sure remember more replies or posts on this part of the forum.
Ok.... we'll *hopefully* knock it in the butt.
Thanks....


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## Mikelia

I don't have a lot of advice but my trainer doesn't stop the dog when it knocks a bar but instead focuses on handling and management of the dog. With the dogs I own and the countless dogs I've seen go through training they all stop knocking bars as they work better as a team with their handlers.
I am a complete newb to agility and may be totally off but I would recommend slowing your dog down so she's not crashing into obstacles as much. 
One thing my trainer said that has really stuck with me is that we know our dogs can move fast. It is our job to teach them to work safely, handle them correctly, and make them want to work with us.


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## MaggieRoseLee

I'm here, with no help.....

I've been fighting bar issues with all my dogs, but worst with the last one I trained so CLEARLY getting worse at this not better 

As a result, my Osin (1 yr) I haven't officially started ANY jump work but only flatwork and body awareness.

In my opinion ...........I did a fantastic job teach Glory (6 yrs) to love agility and go fast. To have her contacts, weavepoles and startlines stay. To look to me and go with me. 

But I did NOT teach her that taking a jump MEANS keeping the bar up all the time. 

Instead I taught her VERY well to go thru the uprights, and generally/most of the time/almost alway keep the bars up if she can. 

Resulting in the 'one bar down' in many many many many runs. And in me running her so carefully and cautiously that all the new wonderful handler skills I'm SUPPOSED to be using in class/courses goes out the window in my attempt to at least Q once and a while.

After doing this with Glory for about 3 years, I decided I wasn't going to be able to fix it because when she was running and having fun, the bars were optional and trialing was too expensive and I DID NOT WANT TO START PUNISHING HER for the down bars. Even marking a bar would make her feel punished cause she's so soft. Worry about her then being careful, slowing down, keeping the bars up and not making time was not an option I was going for.

So............. back to my Osin (1 yr old). I'm not going to really jump her until I can really TEACH her, on just one jump and NOT in a course, that part of jumping IS keeping that bar up. I'll be able to see and mark it on one jump (on a course I'm always late) and react appropriately (not as disappointed/frustrated as on a course or in class). I have Linda Mecklinburgs book, info about Susan Salo jump grids, and I'm currently in the H360 course that Susan Garrett is giving on line.

So I'm hoping I will end up with a dog that CLEARLY knows how to take a jump (and that means bar up  ) and will be one of those people that say 'my dog never knocks a bar'. Because I pretty much tried everything else with my other dogs (Bretta knocked bars too, usually our only mistake on many courses) AFTER I was jumping running full courses. So I believe I never did the best foundation work and took the 'of course my strong dogs can jump' for granted.


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## BoTaBe

Really difficult, I think it depends on the dog. Some just pay attention while jumping, others don't!

My male was a hardcore bar-knocker, he just didn't pay that much attention. He always seemed to think "the faster, the better" and didn't really want to jump OVER the bar if it was clearly faster to just jump right INto... 
In the beginning I didn't really care (which was probably the wrong move) because I was happy that he had so much fun. But it started getting worse with many bars down each run so I started correcting it.

With my female I paid attention to the bars right from the beginning and she jumps way more carefully. Of course she also knocks down one bar or the other (I guess every large dog does) but it's basically nothing compared to my male. I also correct it if she knocks bars in training but fortunately there isn't so much to correct because she pays attention.

But you can definitely change something with your 4 year old, my male was about the same age when I started correcting. And he really improved and barely knocks any bar nowadays! Good luck!


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## gsdheeler

Westminster agility is on Fox Sports 1 from 12 to 2 et today.


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## LuvourGSDs

Thanks guys!
Yeah that 1 bar causing the NQ for otherwise a great run is hard!

MRL, How do you plan to mark? No treats or toy reward? I have done this. I also have been forever doing the SG method & just stop running to go fix the bar but now I feel she just thinks this is a routine & not computing to her, bars need to stay up! I do not believe in no or a negative verbal.

Another dang bad habit that has started is our STARTLINE STAY (or I say wait)! I used to have a 2 jump lead out! Errrrrr


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## TwoBigEars

If stopping to fix the bar isn't working, and you don't believe in a no or negative marker, there really aren't going to be any other answers. They have to know that knocking the bar is incorrect, just as missing a weave pole is incorrect. Simple lack of reward is not enough information for most dogs. I've done the laying-down thing and in my experience it's rather uneffective as a punisher. And in this context it generally is a punisher when you down the dog right after a knocked bar.

My male Ryker is like BoTaBe's male. He thinks jumps are in his way and there is no reason to adjust his stride or make a serious effort to get over the bars. Bar knocking has been his struggle for a long time. He'll bump the stanchions with his shoulders too. I do think a "no" marker is important, otherwise when you just stop the dog doesn't really know what went wrong. It doesn't have to be an angry "no".

What I've found to work with Ryker is a combination of things:

-Linda Mecklenburg's one jump foundation exercises to remind of jumping without my handling and powering off his rear to actually lift his giant body up

-Jump Around the Clock exercises with handling from me. One jump exercises with sends, recalls, front crosses, rear crosses, extension, collection, etc. Sometimes I will have purposely bad or jerky handling to help him with "even if I suck, it's no excuse for you to drop the bar" (because let's be honest, he doesn't even need an excuse to drop bars )

-Susan Garrett's Knocked Bar Protocol. Dog drops a bar, stop running. Go back and put the bar up. Have the dog take that single jump, and verbally praise for keeping it up. Run the sequence again, major party and rewards for not knocking the bar. I do add a "no" marker in there when the bar falls. An important note from SG is that if the dog is circling or performing other behaviors as you reset the fallen bar to "herd" the bar back into the cups, don't put the bar up. Set it back on the ground and wait for the dog to be still in order to reset the bar. This was a missing piece for Ryker, as I thought his circling was better than the barking and biting he used to do over bar-knocking frustration.

-Treat knocked bars and ticks/touches the same, because they are no different to the dog. All the dog knows is if they touched the bar or not. So if a bar rattles but doesn't fall, treat it as if it did fall.

-Heavier jump bars. Wooden dowel rods instead of PVC. Not to hurt him, but to help him feel when he hits a bar. Because he's such a giant dog in a crazy state of mind doing agility that I believe he barely even registers when he hits a PVC bar.

Basically just lots of jump work. Some dogs like Ryker are high maintenance jumpers and you have to spend as much time, if not more, training their jump skills as you do the contacts and weaves. If I don't keep up on his jump work he's knocking bars like it's his job.


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## osito23

Can't help out any but I'm following this post - we just started agility and are learning.


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## LuvourGSDs

Thank you! It is very much appreciated! I down her to stop her from self rewarding as I fix the bar plus I suppose now to the dropped bar. Worried about a negative marker because do not want to shut her down. I want it to be fun but get your point! Why I asked because I have been so mixed! Again 1 bar in 1 of our master std runs causing a NQ this weekend!

Thanks again!





TwoBigEars said:


> If stopping to fix the bar isn't working, and you don't believe in a no or negative marker, there really aren't going to be any other answers. They have to know that knocking the bar is incorrect, just as missing a weave pole is incorrect. Simple lack of reward is not enough information for most dogs. I've done the laying-down thing and in my experience it's rather uneffective as a punisher. And in this context it generally is a punisher when you down the dog right after a knocked bar.
> 
> My male Ryker is like BoTaBe's male. He thinks jumps are in his way and there is no reason to adjust his stride or make a serious effort to get over the bars. Bar knocking has been his struggle for a long time. He'll bump the stanchions with his shoulders too. I do think a "no" marker is important, otherwise when you just stop the dog doesn't really know what went wrong. It doesn't have to be an angry "no".
> 
> What I've found to work with Ryker is a combination of things:
> 
> -Linda Mecklenburg's one jump foundation exercises to remind of jumping without my handling and powering off his rear to actually lift his giant body up
> 
> -Jump Around the Clock exercises with handling from me. One jump exercises with sends, recalls, front crosses, rear crosses, extension, collection, etc. Sometimes I will have purposely bad or jerky handling to help him with "even if I suck, it's no excuse for you to drop the bar" (because let's be honest, he doesn't even need an excuse to drop bars )
> 
> -Susan Garrett's Knocked Bar Protocol. Dog drops a bar, stop running. Go back and put the bar up. Have the dog take that single jump, and verbally praise for keeping it up. Run the sequence again, major party and rewards for not knocking the bar. I do add a "no" marker in there when the bar falls. An important note from SG is that if the dog is circling or performing other behaviors as you reset the fallen bar to "herd" the bar back into the cups, don't put the bar up. Set it back on the ground and wait for the dog to be still in order to reset the bar. This was a missing piece for Ryker, as I thought his circling was better than the barking and biting he used to do over bar-knocking frustration.
> 
> -Treat knocked bars and ticks/touches the same, because they are no different to the dog. All the dog knows is if they touched the bar or not. So if a bar rattles but doesn't fall, treat it as if it did fall.
> 
> -Heavier jump bars. Wooden dowel rods instead of PVC. Not to hurt him, but to help him feel when he hits a bar. Because he's such a giant dog in a crazy state of mind doing agility that I believe he barely even registers when he hits a PVC bar.
> 
> Basically just lots of jump work. Some dogs like Ryker are high maintenance jumpers and you have to spend as much time, if not more, training their jump skills as you do the contacts and weaves. If I don't keep up on his jump work he's knocking bars like it's his job.


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## TwoBigEars

I understand you not wanting to shut her down. I think it depends on the dog. Ryker can handle and needs a "no" marker. He's so crazy for agility that a "no" is not going to shut him down, and it stops him from self-rewarding with other obstacles. The "no" also marks the exact thing that went wrong, as I can say "no" as soon as he hits the bar. So even if he does make it over another obstacle by the time he stops himself (which happens with how fast and long-strided he is) he still had the "no" for the dropped bar. Just as "yes" or a click marks what was correct, a "no" marks what was wrong.

My other dog Solstice is a very soft dog, and a "no" can make her look like I kicked her across the ring and I would never have her lie down after a dropped bar. If she makes a mistake, I use more cheerful interrupters like "oopsie, let's try again!! " and saying it happy. Then she knows there was a mistake but does not shut down over it. Whereas with Ryker and the case of knocked bars, if I used a cheerful interrupter like that it would just wind him up more and make him even more careless.

That being said, I do expect my dogs to be able to handle a simple "no" now and then without shutting down. Even Solstice.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Susan Garrett's Knocked Bar Protocol. Dog drops a bar, stop running. Go back and put the bar up. Have the dog take that single jump, and verbally praise for keeping it up.


I'm going to do this method BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It has to be all the time and consistant until your dogs really 'never' knocks bars. So you know they KNOW that, no matter what, making the effort to keep the bar up is PART of jumping and AS IMPORTANT as everything else that's going on.

For me, this means way more one jump training (so much easier to SEE the bar is down and be timely and correct to show my pup 'oops that's not what I want'). And not doing sequencing with bars up (bumps probably are what will be used for a bit) so we can do handling skills without the bars being in the mix at all.

Unfortunately, I tend to rush my training and since MOST of the bars were up I ignored it as a problem and just was told my dogs would figure it out. When I did 'mark' it alot of time we were already over the next jump/tunnel/whatever before I noticed the bar came down. And I for SURE didn't mark it the same 100% of the time. Specially when I knew the bar came down because of something I did.. I'd give her a pass but then muddied things even more.........

Glory B is VERY soft, if I started using 'no's' on the course with her, she'd have started to slow down, be more careful, not do any distance work and with all the 'are you sure mom I don't want to be wrong' then we'd have even more bars as she's never take her eye/head off me on a course.

My goal is to teach my Osin to KNOW which bar to take and what 'taking a bar' means. Plus give her (hopefully) the strength and body awareness she will need to to her 'job' safely and correctly over each and every bar.

Only thing I could really suggest is to STOP training and trialing completely for awhile. Get Susan Garrett's 'Success with One Jump' plus maybe Linda Mecklenbergs Jump Training book and go back to square one. Any sequencing with bars adds too much other stuff to the mix and so I'd just work on jumping with the one jump and progress from there.

You can still do tons of skill training with obstacle discrimination, contact training, startline stay, tunnels, weaving entries/speed. Just not sequencing with any jumps


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## LuvourGSDs

Thanks much guys. We will continue to work on this. Such a pain. You either have... sure & steady OR wild & crazy, which mine is getting crazier! 

Other question, how do you guys deal with barking at ya if you stop forward motion to redo something? This one has now started! Dear lord, I feel as though we're fallin apart!


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## LuvourGSDs

Also, when you verbal mark a knocked bar, do you stop running? Wondered how you handled?

Thanks!


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## TwoBigEars

For my dog, barking in excitement while running is okay, even though it's kind of annoying because then he can't hear cues I'm giving over his loud barking. Barking on the way to and at the startline is not okay. Barking in sass because there was a mistake (whether my mistake or his, but especially his mistakes) is not okay. 

If he barks, usually I stand completely still and stare at the sky until he's quiet for a few seconds. Movement is reinforcing. I might also say "no, quiet", but I think stopping movement and being ignored has a bigger impact for him. If he's being really sassy, I'll walk him off the field and put him away for a while.

When I mark a knocked bar, we do stop running.


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## LuvourGSDs

Ok, stop running after verbal marking bar correct? You then resume course after a stop/pause? No fixing the bar & restart from there?

She's barking when I stop to redo something, her mistake or mine. This has started the last 2 months. 

Thanks


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## TwoBigEars

I verbally mark the dropped bar, and stop. Then fix the bar (as long as Ryker is quiet and not circling/"herding" the bar back up). Then I either start the sequence over, or Susan Garrett's knocked bar protocol, which I'm trying to do more often instead of just restarting the sequence. If he's barking about it, I might say "no, quiet" and/or stand there not doing anything until he is quiet. Sassing me over a mistake just keeps ramping up his arousal, so nothing happens again until he is quiet.

We are mostly just doing one jump work right now trying to work our way more thoroughly through Linda Mecklenburg's jumping program. Still frustrating though because even with one jump there are times he'll knock it 3-4 times in a row before he keeps it up.

But yeah when running sequences if I mark a dropped bar, we don't continue. Continuing on is a reward for the dog.


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## LuvourGSDs

Well poop! I started marking a knocked bar & tick with a verbal BUT in class I stop, been trying to say verbal & to pause but then continue course. 8( Not sure how I want to handle this in a class setting w/o eating everybody's time? And she's starting
to sass me also! :/

So, at home I have not been verbal marking all ticks cause seen her shut down a tad so I'm throwing the toy or saying good when I hear silence & verbal marking knocked. Sometimes I may verbal mark a tick.


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## TwoBigEars

The hard part about ticks is that to the dog, there is no difference between knocking the bar, and ticking it but it doesn't fall. Either way the dog touched it. It can be hard to stay consistent regarding ticks and knocked bars, and as MRL said above, consistency is very important. Just like if a dog sometimes does their contact behavior correctly and sometimes doesn't, there is no consistency and the behavior gets muddied.

Regarding in class, you might discuss this with the instructor. When I had Ryker in group classes and we were running courses or long sequences, I would often just focus on a small part of the sequence with him. That way we didn't have to worry about getting through a long course (unlikely without several knocked bars and wasting time), and I could reward him for nice efforts in a concentrated exercise.


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## DJEtzel

Personally, I was having some issues with this. When I bumped bars from 16 to 24, bars started dropping like flies.

I NRM and stop the game. If he tries to run onto the next obstacle, I down him for a few moments, then resume. 

doing a lot of work with food to keep drive under control so that he's not plowing through jumps. lol. Since stopping after each dropped bar with the marker, I have seen a huge improvement.


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