# Titles for breeding?



## Jax's Mom

What types of titles and how many would you consider "adequate" for breeding? I know the obvious answer would be "as many as possible" or SchH3, but at what point would a breeder decide their dog would make for good breeding stock?
I'm not asking because I want to breed my dog but what would you consider an absolute must before you'd put your kennel's name on a future puppy?


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## Uniballer

Absolute minimum for me: SchH 1, OFA hips & elbows, plus my own feeling that she is a great bitch. Better with an AD, conformation rating of "G" or better, and breed survey.


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## DJEtzel

I agree with Uniballer.

If they were in the ring, I'd want an AKC CH. before breeding plus hips/elbows and personal feeling.


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## Uniballer

DJEtzel said:


> I agree with Uniballer.
> 
> If they were in the ring, I'd want an AKC CH. before breeding plus hips/elbows and personal feeling.


Sorry, Uniballer doesn't agree with you. No SchH1, no breeding. It's OK to also put an AKC CH on her if you want, though .

I don't mean this as a personal attack but don't want your statement of agreement to include me as accepting a double standard for different lines.


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## Xeph

Championship, CD/RN (preferably both), CGC


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## DJEtzel

Uniballer said:


> Sorry, Uniballer doesn't agree with you. No SchH1, no breeding. It's OK to also put an AKC CH on her if you want, though .
> 
> I don't mean this as a personal attack but don't want your statement of agreement to include me as accepting a double standard for different lines.


I only agreed with you on Sch, don't worry. You don't have to agree with me.


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## GSDElsa

I personally haven't looked at dogs in which at least one of the parents is SchH3. SchH1 OK on the other, but I want at least SchH3 on one of them. And I was to see consistent SchH3 in their pedigree (or IPO3 or whatever the equivelant is in whatever country they are from) back many generations. I think that the parents being titled is only a small part of the equation and one generation is not really a good way to tell if the parent is suitable for breeding. I also look at what titles the littermates have on them.


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## bocron

Kkl rating at least.


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## Whiteshepherds

Assuming that the double standard Uniballer mentioned isn't going to go away tomorrow, what do you want to see on the show lines, just the CH or more at the other end of the name?


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## vomlittlehaus

I think OFA hips at least good. OFA normal elbows. CERF cleared. At least one working title (not everyone can afford SchH). I wouldnt put a limit on the type of title, there are so many different disciplines to title a dog in. A working title shows the dog can handle the stress of training and titling at a trial. I would look at the confirmation of the dog also. I dont think I would require a working line dog to have a CH on it. I would like to get a confirmation rating on my working line female, but that would require SchH work.


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## Xeph

> what do you want to see on the show lines, just the CH or more at the other end of the name?


More at the other end. With bitches, I am lenient with basic titles for the first litter but would like to see more advanced titles for the subsequent litters.


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## GranvilleGSD

dawnandjr said:


> I would like to get a confirmation rating on my working line female, but that would require SchH work.


You do not need to do schutzhund work in order to get a conformation show rating. You would need that for a KKL or the Seiger Show, but if you show at a club level show you can enter the without title class and get a show rating. SG would be the highest level you could obtain.


Even though I have put a variety of titles on my dogs, they are of little importance to me when choosing a breeding pair. Health and temperament are at the top of my list, followed by functional conformation. A title is a bonus, saying that somebody put the time, effort, and boatloads of $$$ into a dog. A title does not always equal a better dog.


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## Uniballer

shepherdmom12 said:


> ... if you show at a club level show you can enter the without title class and get a show rating.


Yes, but if the dog is over 2 then the untitled rating is worthless for breeding qualification.


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## AbbyK9

> Championship, CD/RN (preferably both), CGC


I understand the concept of performance titles other than Schutzhund as there are many venues out there in which a dog can compete, such as Ringsport, Agility, Herding, Obedience, etc. Personally, I would like to see something more than a CD or RN - I'd like to see the handler going further with their dog before breeding. 

Nothing against earning a CD or an RN, but IMHO those are steps toward further titles, not the end-all, be-all a dog should have for breeding. IMHO it's like breeding a Schutzhund dog that has earned nothing but a BH in the sport.

A CGC should be a given for any dog with basic obedience, and I wouldn't really count it. I see a lot of backyard breeders who boast on their websites that their dogs have CGC titles, as if they're some big training achievement. (I guess to the average Joe who does not do any training with their dog, it could seem that way, however.)

Health testing, such as CERF and OFA should be a given for anyone who is going to breed. I am surprised that a lot of people mentioned those in this thread, since those aren't titles and the topic for the thread is which titles a dog should have earned.


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## Xeph

> Personally, I would like to see something more than a CD or RN - I'd like to see the handler going further with their dog before breeding.


For boys, I certainly would. But I'm considering how long it takes to get a really nice, consistent, competition style heel (as opposed to going into the ring, rushing through, and just barely passing all three legs of the venue), and from what I've been reading, it actually takes a couple of years. Bitches do not have the same breeding capacity and timeline as males do.


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## Whiteshepherds

Is there a way to compare the tracking and obedience portions of SchH1, 2 & 3 with the tracking and obedience titles from the AKC?

In other words, would the tracking portion of SchH1 be similar to a TD or a TDX, that kind of thing? Or is it impossible to compare the two? (I understand only Sch has protection)


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## Ruthie

Whiteshepherds said:


> Is there a way to compare the tracking and obedience portions of SchH1, 2 & 3 with the tracking and obedience titles from the AKC?
> 
> In other words, would the tracking portion of SchH1 be similar to a TD or a TDX, that kind of thing? Or is it impossible to compare the two? (I understand only Sch has protection)


AKC has tracking and obedience, but how would you evaluate nerves and aggression without a protection title?


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## Andaka

For my dogs I require a male to be a champion before I would breed him or breed to him. For a female, if she can't have puppies then I am not sure that I want to spend the money required to finish her championship. Before she had a litter, I would want her to have some points toward her championship, and a performance title, but I wouldn't spend a lot of money until I was sure I was going to like what she produces. I have also finished shampionships on bitches that I had no intention of breeding, but they didn't have to take time off to have puppies either.


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## Whiteshepherds

Ruthie said:


> AKC has tracking and obedience, but how would you evaluate nerves and aggression without a protection title?


You wouldn't. I guess I didn't ask that so it made sense.

*If you weren't thinking about breeding*, just comparing skill sets.
Would the dog with an SchH3 and a dog with a CT (Champion Tracker) from the AKC be on par as far as JUST tracking ability goes?

I'm trying to figure out how similar or different the tracking and obedience is between the SV and the AKC. 
If a dog was trained for AKC tracking would he have to be totally retrained to do tracking if he joined the SV?


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## Xeph

> If a dog was trained for AKC tracking would he have to be totally retrained to do tracking if he joined the SV?


Possibly. Certainly fine tuned. Dogs are allowed to cast in AKC, but not in SchH. From what I've heard though, the VST can REALLY be hard for a lot of the SchH dogs, which I find interesting.


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## Ruthie

Andaka said:


> For my dogs I require a male to be a champion before I would breed him or breed to him. For a female, if she can't have puppies then I am not sure that I want to spend the money required to finish her championship. Before she had a litter, I would want her to have some points toward her championship, and a performance title, but I wouldn't spend a lot of money until I was sure I was going to like what she produces. I have also finished shampionships on bitches that I had no intention of breeding, but they didn't have to take time off to have puppies either.


What do you use to evaluate nerve, temperament, drive, aggression...?


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## cliffson1

Jackie,
think about what you are saying in regards to the time it takes to get sound heeling.
Every single female in Germany and most of Europe must have a Sch type title to be bred period. This title requires a thorough off leash heeling exercise. This is every dog in Europe....surely heeling isn't something that takes that long to teach the dog, if you make it a priority. Too many thousands of people doing it.
Certainly it doesn't take years.


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## Xeph

> This title requires a thorough off leash heeling exercise.


I have thought about it. I'm not necessarily saying I agree, but IME the people that have the UDX and OTCH dogs aren't out trialing at 12-18 months. I'm not sure how the methods differ between there and here either. And the picture presented in AKC is very different from SchH.

Just saying.


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## Castlemaid

I've only so far done Schutzhund obedience and tracking, so limited insight. But so far from what I have seen, I would say that a TD is about equivalent to SchI or II track, and a TDX to a SchHIII or FH. A TDX is _hard_! The failure rate is high! But the style of tracking between the two organization are so different, I don't know if they can be compared, as airscenting is allowed in AKC/CKC venues, but heavily penalized in SchH. 

Not that familiar with AKC/CKC style obedience either, but I would say that a BH is equivalent to a CGC/CD/ and some elements of the CDX. Though the venues test such different items in a dog's trainability and temperament, not sure if they could be comparable. Just as an example - The BH has a long down with the handler 30 paces away - standing facing away from the dog, while another handler/dog team do the obedience portion of the BH. the long down is about 7 to 10 minutes long (depending on how quick or slow the other team is), and a LOT of heeling - that is a LOT of sustained focus. 

But the AKC/CKC obedience venues present more distractions, and the sit and down in a group is a challenging situation for many dogs to deal with. 

For me, I wouldn't say that certain titles are equivalent to SchH titles, so either are acceptable. SchH was established as a breed test to preserve the qualities of the breed, so to me SchH titles are the minimum acceptable for breeding titles. 

And it often takes at least two years to get a BH, then on to the SchH I (often done shortly after) - so the excuse that anything beyond a CGC/CD takes too long is not a valid one - since the female should not be bred before two years of age anyways. 

But moreso than the titles itself, what I consider breedworthy would be the dog and what qualities it has the potential to bring forward in its progeny, and the breeder who needs to make a call on whether to breed the dog, and how to choose a complimentary pairing - the titles in and of itself are just a starting point, and not the decisive factor.


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## cliffson1

What does off-leash heeling and UDX or OTCH have in common. Are you saying a Sch one doesn't require competent off-leash heeling. C'mon Jackie...have you ever completed either a BH (which requires off-leash heeling) or a CDX which is less than UD. I guess I am curious as to what your estimate or opinion is based on as to difficulty in acheiving good heeling.


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## AgileGSD

Ruthie said:


> AKC has tracking and obedience, but how would you evaluate nerves and aggression without a protection title?


 Well there is always herding.

The question of what titles dogs should have prior to breeding isn't really as straight forward as it may. On one hand, titles don't really mean more than the dog they are attached to. I have seen highly titled, Ch or equivalent dogs that I wouldn't want to breed or have puppies from. And a good dog is a good dog, even if the owner doesn't have the time or money to pursue high level titles. On the other hand, people serious about breeding need the experience training and trialing dogs to certain levels gives. It's hard to evaluate if a dog has proper drive and soundness if the dog is only expected to be a well mannered pet. Pursuing an AKC CH title can be an extremely expensive and drawn out process. Given the number of GSDs who show every year, only a handful will finish. Around here we can easy get 20-60 GSDs at a show and of those dogs only 1 male and 1 female each day will get CH points. An AKC CH can be both the hardest and at times, most meaningless title one can get with their dog. It's totally subjective and you only have a shot of you have the right type of dog and even at that, it's hard without a handler. It seems to be a bit of a silly thing to base breeding choices on. 

On the other hand, people serious about breeding need the experience training and trialing dogs to certain levels gives. It's hard to evaluate if a dog has proper drive and soundness if the dog is only expected to be a well mannered pet. And how does one even know what is proper if they have nothing to base it on? Then you end up with breeders who think any hyper dog is a performance prospect and any dog that lets people touch him has a "good temperament". 

I think there are legitimate reasons for experienced breeders using untitled dogs in their programs. But people who are fairly new to breeding IMO should strive to do everything they can with their dogs. Not only to prove themselves and their foundation but for the learning experience of it. Getting there is in many ways, the most important part of a title.


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## holland

I am not Jackie but good off leash heeling is good off leash heeling whether it is AKC or schutzhund And an OTCH is quite an accomplishment-at least I think so -and nope its not schutzhund


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## AgileGSD

I see a lot better attention and focus with heeling across the board with SchH dogs. For that venue such heeling seems to be expected of the dogs for competition. You see a wide range of dogs in AKC trials from not very good to really outstanding. In AKC, you can Q as long as your dog is within a couple feet of heel position during most of the heeling routine. You won't get a high score if your dog isn't precise but AKC also doesn't require the focus or enthusiasm seen in SchH heeling. If the dog is precise, even if they are fairly "flat" they can still earn higher scores. OTOH, some of the SchH dogs would be knocked a lot of points for forging. They would still Q but that could put them out of the running for high scores.


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## bocron

Castlemaid said:


> Not that familiar with AKC/CKC style obedience either, but I would say that a BH is equivalent to a CGC/CD/ and some elements of the CDX.


Having done both, I'd say not really. A dog can not only pass the CD/CDX but get a really good score even if they almost flinch or crawl through the exercises. I find the openess of the SchH field to be a much more difficult distraction then the obviously contained AKC ring, and the group part is pretty easy to practice if you have a few friends with dogs, trained or not. The CGC test, while commendable, is pretty easy to rehearse a pass and have nervy dog get a certificate. I know that it makes sense to have every test be exactly the same because Americans want everything to be fair, but it does lead to a less than true reading of the dog's character in many cases. I was at an fun event a few years back and we had 6 dogs with us, they were doing CGC tests as a fund raiser. We had never done the test but decided to enter ours for the heck of it. Of course ours were all at different levels in their training, but what the heck. They all passed with flying colors and so many of the spectators and testers just gushed over our dogs. We were shocked that they were so impressed at what we considered basic minimum skills.
We also offer dog daycare as part of our business and many prospective new clients feel like they shouldn't have to do the evaluation if their dog has a CGC. We always ask what age they did the test. If the dog was younger than 15mos or so, then we tell them we need to do our own evaluation as the dog has probably matured now and we need to make sure the social skills are compatible with daycare. I am always shocked at how many were done at 7-10 mos. I'm thrilled they took the time to do it, but I am not going to take at face value that the adult dog will react the same way now.
Every GSD in our house (7 at the moment) has Kkl parents. I know it is expensive to do all that, but we have done it with our own and when we bought from other breeders we were perfectly willing to pay what they asked since we understand the time and cost involved.
Granted, we have only been involved in producing 3 litters in the past 10+ years since that is not our "thing".


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## Liesje

I don't think there's really a comparison between each phase in SchH and an AKC equivalent. To me Schutzhund is THREE phases. How you imprint and train each phase directly or indirectly carries over to the other three phases. I'm kind of a purist with this. I do not think that training in one or two phases is training in "Schutzhund". To me the whole point is training in* all three* phases. I would just never feel I'm getting a full, clear picture of my dog not doing all three. I don't think it's wrong to only train one or two (I have a dog that only does two) but it's just not the same, so it's not really even worth comparing to other forms.

As a buyer, not a breeder, I'm not all that interested in rally and AKC obedience titles because any dog can achieve those; they are not at all breed-specific and do not give me any sort of idea about the dog and temperament other than the handler had enough money to enter shows and get those titles. Actually I look mostly at the breeding dog's lines and what the dogs have already produced, moreso than I evaluate just based on the titles achieved. When looking at titles I also want to know the scores and the judges.


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## holland

Just came from an AKC trial and didn't see any dogs flinching or crawling through the exercises-There are dogs in schutzhund who lack enthusiasm and focus and still pass. There are dogs in AKC who have focus and enthusiasm in heeling I see them there. AKC is also welcoming to all breeds. If an AKC title isn't enough to breed oh well I never have -enjoyed my time with my dogs though


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## cliffson1

Holland,
My issue with Jackie's statement has nothing to do with the venue of the heeling. My issue is it does not take "years" to get good off leash heeling. Regardless of whether it is SCH or AKC....WHEW!!!(Why do I bother)
My reference to Sch is only to "prove" that EVERY dog in Germany (soft ,hard, show, working, pink, etc) has to have competent off leash heeling to be bred. This certainly contradicts the difficulty of it, if EVERY DOG and EVERYBODY can attain this. I'am sure the show people in Germany have the same concern about the length of a females's breeding career.......YET.
So I am not contrasting AKC obedience to Sch obedience, I just have problems with people justifying an action based on a premise that is counter indicated by the entire breed in Europe. Doesn't make sense to me. 
There are so many suppositions in the German Shepherd world that will not stand up to common sense scrutiny and until we flush them out people will continue to buy into them, and the breed will continue down the path of doing less.


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## holland

Oh-ok...sorry when posts get long I don't read them all ...loose my focus


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## bocron

holland said:


> Just came from an AKC trial and didn't see any dogs flinching or crawling through the exercises-


I'm not saying they all do by any means, but I have seen it MANY times. I don't think that people shouldn't participate and work towards the AKC titles, but I will stand by my opinion that the Kkl was intended for the GSD as a way to preserve the breed and it's abilities and traits. Capt. von Stephanitz devised the system to continue the breed he created and loved and I for one don't feel like anyone has come up with anything better or even equal. 

AKC titles are great, and when we get clients who sign up for a training program to get a CD, a TD or a CGC then we love to help them reach that goal. It gets people involved with their dog (regardless of the breed) and hopefully continues the hobby for further generations. So yay, but as a minimum breeding requirement, not so much. 

Oh, and our club is DVG club, which is an all-breed Schutzhund club. We have members who are working specifically toward a BH and have no interest in bitework, and some who are just aiming for a tracking title.


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## gagsd

I have seen flinching and crawling at schutzhund trials.... SE Regions last year, and the WDC this year. Dogs still got decent scores because they were "correct."

And I believe that sucessfully completing legs at the Atlanta Expo Center, with 2000 other dogs there, can show nerve strength. 

I am learning so much by training my dogs and by being part of an informed group of people. My schutzhund club and the process of training my dogs for titles is invaluable in learning.

Back to the OT: I would be OK with breeding a dog with a Schutzhund or herding title, or an array of other titles (ie. tracking, agility, ob, etc.). 
The more I learn, the more I see the importance.


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## cliffson1

Jax, 
I actually don't think that any of the titles is a minimum for responsible breeding. (On this I disagree with people like Chris, Lisa, probably Anne, Sue, Joker,etc. And its okay because at the end of the rainbow we will believe that the same dogs should and shouldn't be bred)
I think that responsible breeding requires two things; 1) knowledge; based on education and experience, 2) integrity; to breed a sound working breed dog.
I know many people that breed based on titles and certs that are clueless about breeding. I know many people that breed without titles that are producing very nice dogs. 
I will say that by and large the better breeders of German Shepherds in the world ARE bred with titles as Europe still produces a superior dog than the rest of the world and they ALL breed with titles. (I know that bothers some American breeders but the reality is working people still look to europe for breeding stock, and lo and behold where do you think these dogs (WGSL) that the AS people are mixing with their stock to improve temperament are coming from??)
I remember when American breeders made wise breeding decisions without titles routinely, and there are still some that do, but I have to admit that the pendulum has swung in this country, to a reality that most people should have titles of some sort, because there are so many American breeders that have lost sight of temperamental soundness as witnessed by their decline in working or performance.


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## cliffson1

Anette,
I totally agree. Our club is a SDA club. We have three Doberman breeders in the club who are top show people and ALL their adult dogs they are particpating with are AKC champions. When they first joined the club three years ago it was primarily to try to get their dog though their WAC testing.(WAC is temperament testing). Talk about a breed in the same shape as ours, the Dobes are in worse shape in terms of mental soundness.
As time has gone on I have seen these people change their attitudes about many things to include who they should breed to. When they first came in all that was important to them was "fronts", "rears", "shoulder" and temperament was a necessary evil to get the WAC so they could get their ROM.
Now they are looking at studs with performance titles to breed to, they are acquiring protection titles in our club. (we have 4 Doberman Champions with a Protection dog one title), they are going to seminars with people like John Soares and Phil Hoechler, and their new generation dogs are much stronger, stabler, and still winning in the ring. They are so much more knowledgable about their dogs working ability and their dogs working deficits so that they don't make the breeding decisions they did in the past. They even "factor" in temperament now in selecting a stud as opposed to three years ago it wasnot part of the equation. You can see the pride at this year's WAC testing as their dogs showed better mental strength and their young dogs are much much better than their counterparts at the WAC.
But what I feel best about is that they have changed their attutude about what they thought they knew about their dog's working ability and the importance of it. And this is how we turn it around, IMO.


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## Xeph

> My issue is it does not take "years" to get good off leash heeling.


I'd say 2 years would be years. That's the consensus that has been reached with the AKC people I've talked to. And the venue is different, as was mentioned. The kind of forging that is allowed to go on in SchH would be heavily penalized in AKC, and AKC exhibitors spend a lot of time refining the position to get it just right.

And no, admittedly AKC does not care about enthusiasm in the work. They only care if the dog is where it's supposed to be. A dog that is out wide and lagging behind the handler is going to be severely penalized, as opposed to the dog that maintains a perfect heel and is almost glued to the handler's hip. I don't know what the criteria is for bumping the handler in SchH, but in AKC, every bump is half a point...and they add up relatively quickly.

I certainly won't trial a dog before two anymore. I don't know many seasoned AKC people that do trial their dogs very early anymore. Largely they teach the dog exercises all the way through utility and then go trial. Bang bang bang, there goes all their titles. They're done and it takes less time (and less money).

How much is a SchH trial entry? How long does a trial last? You can go to a one day trial and have your title for one entry fee, correct? I have to go to a minimum of 3 trials under at least 2 different judges in order to obtain my title. I'll take my time with my training so I don't have to spend $1000 on three legs of a title (Strauss completed his CD in 4 shows).

I have not completed a BH. Why? Because for 6 years I have attempted to memorize the BH pattern and have been unable to. I've had every sort of help under the sun, and tried everything to retain it in my brain....and I just can't remember the *#@&*( pattern. So if I want a BH on one of my dogs....Jon will have to do it. Strauss is trained all the way through his CDX exercises, but I gave up on getting his CDX because....he won't shut up in the ring. I have been unable to correct it, and he kept being excused for being too noisy.

With any luck, I'll be able to train Mirada all the way through a UD. Would I do a UDX or an OTCH? No. Why? #1 I really don't like obedience to begin with. Just too stale and too much perfection for me. #2 A UDX and an OTCH are freaking expensive to obtain! I'm not sure if you've seen the rules for them, but they're pretty ridiculous. You have to enter in Open AND Utility the same day for your UDX and qualify in both to get a leg. You also need 10 legs in order to get the title.

For the OTCh, a team must earn a total of 100 points, based on a rating scale distributed by the AKC. In addition, the team must win 3 first place awards - one in an Open B class, one in a Utility B class, and an additional first place win in either Open B or Utility B.

You don't have to agree with me, but my feeling on the matter is that you can't get a consistent heel in a short amount of time unless you use a good deal of compulsion.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Jackie no! (and then I  at you because you're you!) I don't do competition anything so maybe I am talking out of my hiney butt - I have one PB dog and mixes, and maybe PB fosters here and there, but a good motivational boring heel can be done starting as a puppy or adult. Is the issue confusing them between ring gaiting and obedience? Regardless, something like the Vollhard method would work for both, I am guessing. My dogs are smart enough to get it and they aren't exactly wanting to please me all the time either (Chow mixes) but they love to heel.


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## Xeph

Oh, Jean, I was addressing cliff! I should have been clear! 



> Is the issue confusing them between ring gaiting and obedience?


Not at all  I use different collars and different commands for both. I'm also only on my SECOND competition dog, and thus have no chosen method of how to start and work my dogs (especially on my own). I also have troubles with health issues (Separate problem) and in training struggle with breaking things down to make the dog understand what I want (I am not a "think outside the box" type person, and struggle terribly with puzzles).

I am also the type of person that struggles with asking for perfection, because I can't make myself care that much. With the exception of the "life saving" commands, my feeling has been "I don't care, as long as the dog does it", so getting a nice heel takes me a long time.

I also suck with bridging and removing immediate rewards, and that may get better as I have more dogs, or it may never improve.

Mirada is 9 months old, and I'm just starting heeling because I didn't want to create the same issues I did with Strauss. It's much harder without the help of my kennel club trainers.

Mirada is certainly smart enough to do it all (we're actually working on the dumbbell again...and she just locked the cat in his carrier after shoving him into it). I just need the motivation to do the work. I'd rather be doing agility, but there aren't any nearby classes for her


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## cliffson1

Jackie,
Our club members do AKC obedience. I have show Bouvier and show Doberman people(and the Dobes are all Champions, so they had to do ring training with obedience and SDA.) These people need the CD title to help with their ROM and they have heeling down by the time the dog is 18 months AND the dog has been finished also. I'm sorry, but I think you are theorizing as opposed to speaking from experience. And where do you get this info that Sch heeling is bumping so much it would cause the dog to do bad in AKC obedience. Again, another statement that I find based in read/or told and completely untrue. Good heeling is good heeling regardless of where you do it and Sch dogs do not have problems with passing AKC heeling . If they do it is the exception, not the norm and i know you wouldn't make a point with the exception being the case.
Let's not let the newbies get the wrong impressions:wub:


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## Chris Wild

It does not take years to get correct, refined heeling, AKC or SchH or otherwise. Nor does it require a good deal of compulsion. Not with a decent dog and decent training anyway. Sure, like with all things it gets better with more time and practice and work on the details. But for a dog to be ready to trial and score well doesn't take years.



Xeph said:


> How much is a SchH trial entry? How long does a trial last? You can go to a one day trial and have your title for one entry fee, correct? I have to go to a minimum of 3 trials under at least 2 different judges in order to obtain my title. I'll take my time with my training so I don't have to spend $1000 on three legs of a title (Strauss completed his CD in 4 shows).


I've done both venues, and 3 legs or no SchH is more difficult and more expensive. Trial entry fees for SchH trials are typically in the $60-$75 range, at least in this area. BH is typically less. Trial will start before dawn and typically not be done until mid afternoon or later. Yes, you can do the title in one day under one judge, but it's 3 completely different phases that must be passed that day. If you pass1 or 2 but fail another, you don't get credit for those. You can't get a leg, and then pick up another leg later. You pass it all, or you have to re-do it all. And trials are much fewer and farther in between compared to the AKC type venues as well.

AKC fees are much less. Entry fees for all 3 legs would be on par with 1 SchH trial entry fee. And trials are typically much easier to come by in terms of frequency and distance and most I have seen have been scheduled such that it is entirely possible to get a whole title, or at minimum 2 of the legs, in one weekend. 2 trials per day, both Sat and Sun with a different judge each day, is pretty much the norm around here at least. And certainly they are much, much shorter trial days. The only trouble we've had with AKC/UKC venues is the bitch in season rule. That can make it tricky to get legs with breeding bitches, but even then with how often trials are available it's not that big of a deal. How someone could spend $1000 on getting a CD is beyond me. Unless you had to travel halfway across country to do it and even then it could be done in a single weekend.

I really don't think one can draw parallels between the two venues in order to say X in AKC is equivalent to Y in SchH. They are just too different. But I just don't buy the excuse that one *can't* do a certain venue because it's too expensive or too hard to find trials or whatever else. If you want to do it, and think it's important, you can do it. Likewise, I don't buy the excuse that a dog can't be ready to title before appropriate breeding age. Especially not when talking about such one dimensional things like RN and CD. If that is the case, than either the dog or the training is falling short somewhere.


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## AbbyK9

> But I'm considering how long it takes to get a really nice, consistent, competition style heel (as opposed to going into the ring, rushing through, and just barely passing all three legs of the venue)


Let's say you are looking at a website to find a breeder you'd like to purchase a puppy from. They have their titles listed, photos, and videos of their dogs. How do you know that their titles weren't earned "just barely passing all three legs of the venue"? How do you know the video and pictures weren't just the best ones out of hundreds they've taken of those dogs, the ones that made them look really good?


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## Liesje

Jackie, please don't let the pattern thing stop you from trying the BH. I've seen handlers get flustered and forget something or lose their place. The judge may or may not be counting steps, but at least at BH level I doubt an otherwise good dog is going to fail for that. I've even seen/heard the judge call out a hint if someone is really off. At that level they're really looking at the overall picture and the dog's temperament. When I did Kenya's FO, OB1 and Nikon's BH I basically lost track myself. I just heel out to where the "track" ends (assuming you're not the very first to go), turn around, and do 4 sets of 12 for the paces (rather than say 10-15 of this, I just make it 12) and then just continue to follow the track in the grass.


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## Chris Wild

AbbyK9 said:


> Let's say you are looking at a website to find a breeder you'd like to purchase a puppy from. They have their titles listed, photos, and videos of their dogs. How do you know that their titles weren't earned "just barely passing all three legs of the venue"? How do you know the video and pictures weren't just the best ones out of hundreds they've taken of those dogs, the ones that made them look really good?


 
One could inquire about the scores, or even ask to see copies of the scorebook/judges sheets as proof of the scores. That would be the only way.

Though even then, scores only tell so much. A very high score indicates a very nice dog with very nice training, or at least it is supposed to. But of course individual venues and judges define each differently. Still, more often than not one can make certain assumptions based on a high score, especially if familiar with the requirements for getting a high score in that venue. If a score is low, then it becomes more difficult to translate that into what it says about the dog. Take SchH protection for example. A dog could score 85 because it was a very strong, powerful dog who didn't have great control in the obedience part of protection (which in turn could be due to very different things). Or it could score 85 because it was a weak dog in the work, but had beautiful secondary obedience. Neither is ideal, but two vastly different things which tell vastly different stories about the dog's character led to the same point discrepency and you can't know which is which just based on the numerical score.

So really in the end, the only sure fire way to know for sure is to know the dog, or at minimum talk to qualified, experienced, knowledgeable and honest (and objective) people who do know the dog.


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## Chris Wild

Liesje said:


> Jackie, please don't let the pattern thing stop you from trying the BH. I've seen handlers get flustered and forget something or lose their place. The judge may or may not be counting steps, but at least at BH level I doubt an otherwise good dog is going to fail for that. I've even seen/heard the judge call out a hint if someone is really off. At that level they're really looking at the overall picture and the dog's temperament.


Agree. At the BH level, the vast majority of judges will be very lenient if someone makes a mistake in the pattern or order of exercises and will also provide direction and assistance to help the handler get through it if needed without seriously faulting the performance for that extra help. It happens a lot. Even people who can perform the pattern flawlessly otherwise often brain fart on trial day and forget the whole thing. And at that level especially most judges will be very understanding and supportive and help the handler out.


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## Mrs.K

Ruthie said:


> AKC has tracking and obedience, but how would you evaluate nerves and aggression without a protection title?


Honestly, I am actually going away from protection because it's become more of a show and a lot of dogs are "made" and not for real. 

I'd rather have a rescue, herding or other kind of REAL working dog instead of a SchH dog that was made...


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## Vandal

Why would anyone post a "bad" picture of their dogs on a web site? The purpose of good pictures is to show the dogs structure and normally, bad pictures do not do that. I take tons of pictures of my dogs and yes, I try to put the good ones on my site. I can assure you, you can make a nicely structured dog look terrible in pictures, so, I don't quite understand why that would be a problem.
As for the rest, you have to understand protection work and what to look for. Most of the really good dogs I worked in SchH, yes, even the really aggressive and strong ones, were quite obedient. That obedience when they were working in a higher state of drive and also while being aggressive, said a great deal about the character of those dogs. That is distinctly an ability German Shepherds should possess and THAT is what I am talking about when I say an aggressive breed must be tested to determine if the dog has the character to use that aggression appropriately. If the dog cannot hear the handler or refuses to listen to the handler when working in aggression, he is not a correct GSD. The training in SchH now, ( and the judging), makes it possible to earn a title when the aggression is not tested and for me, that is a BIG problem.


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## Vandal

You also have to factor in the methods used to control the dogs in protection nowadays. Not much "natural" about it and IMO, it should not take all the tricks and electronics to get a dog to comply or to make them look like a dog who is doing it because his genetics allow him to.


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## lhczth

AbbyK9 said:


> Let's say you are looking at a website to find a breeder you'd like to purchase a puppy from. They have their titles listed, photos, and videos of their dogs. How do you know that their titles weren't earned "just barely passing all three legs of the venue"? How do you know the video and pictures weren't just the best ones out of hundreds they've taken of those dogs, the ones that made them look really good?


Go see the dogs in person. That is the only way to know for sure, IMO.


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## Xeph

> Jackie, please don't let the pattern thing stop you from trying the BH.


I suppose I should try again. It's just very frustrating when you've worked at it for 6 years, and just can't get it 



> But I just don't buy the excuse that one *can't* do a certain venue because it's too expensive or too hard to find trials or whatever else.


I don't think I said that? Unless you were just trying to use an example.

An RN is easy to get as long as the dog can walk on a leash and not pull. It doesn't require any real focus. I don't like Rally as I find it rather boring, but it's good for getting a dog into a ring.


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## Liesje

I think I was the one that originally made a comment about price/entering trials. What I meant was take a title like an RAE....it costs over $500 just in entry fees and that's not including the entry fees of the titles leading up to that, or if you NQ (which is probably gonna happen a few times since you have to get ten double Qs).

I brought it up because what I meant was just because a dog does not have those rally or obedience titles does not mean the dog isn't trained for it or couldn't achieve it. I trained my dog through RE before he was 1 year and he could do a CDX now, but Schutzhund is really my priority as far as the money I spend on dogs so he has no title. I personally do not see the rally or AKC obedience titles as meaning anything to me as far as the dogs I am interested in buying because I just don't see them as appropriate breed tests. I have done rally and obedience (and many other) titles with a GSD that does not have the same nerves and drive that are appropriate for breeding. What does it say about using those titles as breed worthiness when a dog with some problems can attain them no problem? Those titles are more like "icing on the cake" or winter activity titles for me, hence my comment about getting around to having the time and money to add them.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> You also have to factor in the methods used to control the dogs in protection nowadays. Not much "natural" about it and IMO, it should not take all the tricks and electronics to get a dog to comply or to make them look like a dog who is doing it because his genetics allow him to.


And that is why I am going away from it. 

I am not saying that the past training methods were better. It used to be a lot of abuse BUT the dogs were better/real/harder. You know what I mean? 

But many dogs got broken, many good dogs broke because of the methods and people that literally killed their dogs by beating them up to death.

However, the sport itself is a show. It's no longer about work. Everybody talks about Quality and that they have to get back to the real thing and than they turn their dog into a show dog.


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## Vandal

I am saying that genetically, there is a shift toward dogs that have a hard time containing themselves. I know what lines I have seen that in also.
I see people blaming the training for that and while true to a degree, I know from being a helper, that some dogs do not comply because they get "rattled" by the pressure. If the training and the test, do not trigger the protective instinct, how are breeders determining who that dog really is? Some do that but when they see something they don't like, it's is of course, the training.
Again, the best dogs I ever worked had an ability to bring up aggression, dominate the helper and all that stuff that people want to see, and at the same time, hear everything I was saying. Oh sure, I have learned how to train dogs over the years but that ability was much more genetic than about who I was as a trainer. Those dogs made training protection easy. I did not have to be a really great trainer with those dogs. Nowadays, I think people have to be better at training because of what the dogs are lacking. We have all kinds of "wizards" out there selling their training ideas and products. With the really good dogs, that stuff is not necessary. I get tired of hearing about the "its a tool" stuff. Some tools have had a negative affect on the breed.


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## Whiteshepherds

Is what you see always "true" when you watch a dog going through the 3 phases of Sch, or is it a snapshot in time that may or may not reflect the true temperament of the dog? 

In other words, if a dog does great during the protection phase of Sch. with it's handler, (or tracking or obedience) would the dog be expected to perform the exact same way with another handler? How much of the testing is about the dog and how much of it is a direct reflection of the handler?


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## Catu

Chris Wild said:


> It does not take years to get correct, refined heeling, AKC or SchH or otherwise. Nor does it require a good deal of compulsion. Not with a decent dog and decent training anyway. Sure, like with all things it gets better with more time and practice and work on the details. But for a dog to be ready to trial and score well doesn't take years.


Diabla did her PAN (Novice Companion Dog) at 9 months old. It is supposed to be for dogs over 12 months, but since we lived in the middle of the desert by then the judge let us try. It has the same heeling than a BH and Diabla got the first place. Good nobody told her it requires years of training and compulsion.

And about SchH heeling. In fact I do like the facts it requires things that other kinds of heeling doesn't require. To maintain focus all that time requires nerve and work ethic, to be glued to a leg only requires to be submissive. Even with SchH and IPO being basically the same, I prefer how the first is judged over the second, because (ideally, and with the right judge) it measures the dog over the flashiness of the routine.


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## Catu

Whiteshepherds said:


> In other words, if a dog does great during the protection phase of Sch. with it's handler, (or tracking or obedience) would the dog be expected to perform the exact same way with another handler?


In my humble opinion... No, it should not be expected. Why a German Shepherd should comply to anyone but its master?


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## Vandal

> Is what you see always "true" when you watch a dog going through the 3 phases of Sch, or is it a snapshot in time that may or may not reflect the true temperament of the dog?
> 
> In other words, if a dog does great during the protection phase of Sch. with it's handler, (or tracking or obedience) would the dog be expected to perform the exact same way with another handler? How much of the testing is about the dog and how much of it is a direct reflection of the handler?


Well certainly the dog must have bonded to the new handler and come to understand the tone of the handler's commands etc. It would also require that the handler is at least proficient as far as training and handling goes. People can be quite disruptive when they handle their dogs, so, a certain degree of competency is required.

SchH was designed to display who the dog is more than who the trainer is. Which brings me to what I wanted to ask. Who understands what each phase, and exercise, in SchH is testing or was designed to test? Titles seem to be quite important to so many but I have not heard many people discussing just what that title is telling them, other than that the handler or breeder took the time to spend with his/her dog.


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## Jax's Mom

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I am actually going away from protection because it's become more of a show and a lot of dogs are "made" and not for real.
> 
> I'd rather have a rescue, herding or other kind of REAL working dog instead of a SchH dog that was made...


I'm so glad an authentic German agrees with me on this one 
If your dog sees you socializing with the same person week after week on a picnic bench, watches him put on a bite sleeve, and laugh and joke with you on the way out to the field, how seriously is he going to take it? Unless your dog is an aggressive psycho (which is not really what we're looking for), it's just a game to them. Tracking is tracking, herding is herding but protection the way it is now is just tug of war.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> Well certainly the dog must have bonded to the new handler and come to understand the tone of the handler's commands etc. It would also require that the handler is at least proficient as far as training and handling goes. People can be quite disruptive when they handle their dogs, so, a certain degree of competency is required.
> 
> SchH was designed to display who the dog is more than who the trainer is. Which brings me to what I wanted to ask. Who understands what each phase, and exercise, in SchH is testing or was designed to test? Titles seem to be quite important to so many but I have not heard many people discussing just what that title is telling them, other than that the handler or breeder took the time to spend with his/her dog.


Actually, there are two ways to get a dog "gekoered". 

It's via Herding or Schutzhund. 

Schutzhund is not the only way to get a dog titled and evaluated for breeding because a Herding dog can be evaluated as well. So if you plan to get a dog titled in Herding (HGH) and go through conformation you get the same papers as a dog that has the SchH1 and is gekoered. 

If you want to know why the titles turned out the way they did, you have to look at the History of the German Shepherd.

What was the Shepherd bred for? Originally it used to be a Herding dog but than they were used as military and police dogs and that is what the Schutzhund title was used for. To single out the dogs that were good enough to do that kind of work: Protection, Searching and Obedience.


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## Liesje

Jax's Mom said:


> If your dog sees you socializing with the same person week after week on a picnic bench, watches him put on a bite sleeve, and laugh and joke with you on the way out to the field, how seriously is he going to take it? Unless your dog is an aggressive psycho (which is not really what we're looking for), it's just a game to them.


Hm, well if that's your understanding of protection then I guess it's better you not participate.


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## Vandal

I understand that Mrs K but because I have not done herding with my dogs, I am limiting my questions to SchH and the exercises therein. 

Having said that, I also realize that the traits necessary in SchH are the same as herding but I have not read anyone commenting on what those traits are or how they fit into either activity. Also how breeding decisions are made based on what can be observed. For now, unless someone who really does do herding with their dogs shows up, I would like people to comment about SchH.


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## Vandal

Although I never sit and chat and joke with people while their dog is watching, I can assure you , if I did that and then went out to work their dog, the dog would not be viewing me as a playmate. It is who the helper is that makes the difference how the dog views protection but it does fit into some of my complaints about the way SchH is conducted nowadays.


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## Liesje

Vandal said:


> Titles seem to be quite important to so many but I have not heard many people discussing just what that title is telling them, other than that the handler or breeder took the time to spend with his/her dog.


For me, I just like what I like, plain and simple. One of my favorite dogs now SchH3 I liked long before he was SchH3 and his competition performance is not even all that great points-wise, but what can I say, I like the dog and always have. If one knows what they want/don't want in the dog you can see it long before the dog goes through the motions of titles. Maybe my favorite dogs are not the "best" dogs or what someone else would want to own or breed but I can still pick my favorites before the dog is going to the WUSV (if they even compete in that capacity which most don't and I don't care). Sort of like gymnastics which is my other lifelong passion moreso than dogs. My favorite gymnast right now is a Level 9 and I have been watching her for years, since she was only a Level 6 (about 9 years old) but when someone has what it takes to beat everyone in the world it doesn't matter how old they are or whether they are already doing the big skills, you just know. Like Schutzhund, you cannot make up for what is just not there thinking you just have to train hard enough. That is why so many people will remember Nadia Comaneci even though the equipment and the skills have been revolutionized since her time, she was still the most athletic, technical, and talented gymnast ever. It doesn't matter that some of her skills now look "easy".


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## Vandal

Maybe you are different than me Lies but I usually know WHY I like something. What do you like and if you were watching a SchH routine, in what part of it would you see those qualities that you like?


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## Liesje

Yes there are many things I like or don't like. There are many behaviors I personally wouldn't tolerate, temperament traits I would not own, while other "mistakes" or difficulties I don't really care about. I suppose I could type it all out but does it really matter to anyone but me? Everyone's list of criteria would be different. As to WHY I like what I like, I'm not really sure, as I don't know why I prefer the color blue over the color red or why I like the taste of a sugar cookie more than a peanut butter cookie.


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## GSD07

Xeph said:


> From what I've heard though, the VST can REALLY be hard for a lot of the SchH dogs, which I find interesting.


 FH2 tracks will be REALLY hard for the majority of SchH dogs as well. As I understand, VST is pretty similar in design to FH2 but FH2 is much longer (2 to three times) then VST and also a dog has to find the starting article on his own.


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## Xeph

Oksana, how many different surfaces do the FH2 tracks have?


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## Vandal

I'm not trying to put you on the spot Lies.Just that people say so much about how important SchH is but then cannot say why.
You know enough about gymnastics to make some pretty intelligent remarks about Nadia Commanici and actually, that is what I am talking about. The training has advanced to the point where people no longer consider what it is they like. What traits are there that makes a GSD a GSD. Nadia was a "natural" and what I am asking is, what about SchH identifies the "naturals". Those are the dogs we should be using and the ones who should be rewarded but the training has taken away the ability to see who those dogs are .


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## Ruthie

From the perspective of a buyer, what a title earned by the breeder tells me is that they know their dog. I don't understand how you could know your dog well enough to determine if it should be bred let alone to whom if you are not working it. There were many things I learned about my dog when I started training for SchH that I didn't know before. 

What I think it most interesting is that I learned a lot about what level he is in different areas. For example: Compared to other breeds that I trained with in other activities, I would say that he has tremendiously strong nerves, but when I started working him I realized that his nerves aren't super high on the GSD scale because he lacks the ability to control his drive at times. That doesn't mean that I love him less and I still think he is an awesome dog, but if I had been concidering breeding him, I would have to think twice.

That is why I asked the question how poeple evaluate the nerves and agression of their dogs if they don't do protection work.

Someone mentioned herding. I don't know that much about herding. Can someone explain how herding with your dog gives you and understanding of their aggression and nerve? Not that I disagree, I just don't know.


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## Ruthie

Vandal said:


> I'm not trying to put you on the spot Lies.Just that people say so much about how important SchH is but then cannot say why.
> You know enough about gymnastics to make some pretty intelligent remarks about Nadia Commanici and actually, that is what I am talking about. The training has advanced to the point where people no longer consider what it is they like. What traits are there that makes a GSD a GSD. Nadia was a "natural" and what I am asking is, what about SchH identifies the "naturals". Those are the dogs we should be using and the ones who should be rewarded but the training has taken away the ability to see who those dogs are .


Don't you as a handler know what things your dogs are "naturals" at because you don't really have to train them? It is the weak spots of a dog, and all have them, that you really need to work on.

Like the example I gave in my previous post. I spend 80% of my training time working on drive containment and the other 20% teaching the commands and routines. Bison is naturally bidable and wants to please me that stuff comes easy.


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## Vandal

There used to be a guy in my area who came to all the trials with dogs he trained himself. The dogs and the training were simply awful. Did I get the impression that guy understood what he was doing or "knew" his dog? Uh no. I have been doing this long enough and helping enough people train their dogs to know that a large majority know much less about what their dog is doing in, for example, protection than many of you would believe or accept.
My point is being proven on this thread. Again, I am asking what traits that are supposed to be present in a GSD, do the SchH exercises put on display? Same with herding, there are specific traits and since no one seems to get what I am saying, lets talk about social aggression, genetic obedience, active and reactive aggression etc. Although anymore, I kind of find the use of these terms not helpful because of the complete misunderstanding associated with all of them, I need to use them here so people will understand my question.


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## Liesje

Vandal said:


> I'm not trying to put you on the spot Lies.Just that people say so much about how important SchH is but then cannot say why.
> You know enough about gymnastics to make some pretty intelligent remarks about Nadia Commanici and actually, that is what I am talking about. The training has advanced to the point where people no longer consider what it is they like. What traits are there that makes a GSD a GSD. Nadia was a "natural" and what I am asking is, what about SchH identifies the "naturals". Those are the dogs we should be using and the ones who should be rewarded but the training has taken away the ability to see who those dogs are .


Oh I know, I see what you are getting at and why you are asking. I didn't give specific examples because I maybe I'm the one that's looking for the wrong sort of dog, I don't know. One example is that I don't like anything that looks hectic. I don't like a dog that I can't *live* with, if that makes sense. I think a dog can look correct and show drive and power even in obedience without being frantic about it. I don't like a dog that's so obsessive about a toy or some other object or single aspect of training that the dog is no longer "thinking". I would rather have a dog that might appear "stubborn" to me because I am the one making a mistake in my training and handling than a dog that is being trained by a toy and not a person, if that makes sense. Just one example...

ETA: I'm not saying my dogs have all the traits on my list either. A lot of what I now look for or don't look for in a dog comes from having lived with and trained the other dogs, thinking about what I really like (even if it's traits someone else doesn't like) and what I would improve on. The more I train, the more my "list" evolves...


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## Vandal

Yes, that is closer to what I am talking about. See, you DID know what you like and I like what you like. 
If you were at a trial, where would you most likely see the things you don't like? What exercises in what phases?


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## Liesje

Me specifically? The retrieves have become a big thing for me, though it also helps to know how the dog was trained and why the handler chose the method (or thought it was the right method, or did they have to "resort" to it? etc). I also like to watch dogs on a long down. In protection, I look a lot at escape bites and also the dog's guarding in the open. To name a few examples...


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## AbbyK9

> Why would anyone post a "bad" picture of their dogs on a web site? The purpose of good pictures is to show the dogs structure and normally, bad pictures do not do that. I take tons of pictures of my dogs and yes, I try to put the good ones on my site. I can assure you, you can make a nicely structured dog look terrible in pictures, so, I don't quite understand why that would be a problem.


I meant photos of the dogs actually working, not photos of the dogs' conformation. 

Anyone could make it appear like their dog ALWAYS has great focus on the field if they only post pictures and clips where the dog is actually focusing on them during heeling. Even if they barely scraped by to get the legs for their obedience titles and even if the dog only looks up at them every so often rather than keeping focus.


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## Vandal

To clear up the natural remark. Natural means to me what a GSD is supposed to be. So, I guess you would have to understand that aspect first. There is a balance of drives and all the other things I talked about that made dogs like say , Bernd Lierberg a GREAT German Shepherd. Would SchH conducted the way it is today, have made it so clear what a great dog he was and how important he was for the breed?

Just read the other threads on this forum where so many are stuggling with aggression issues. Like I said before, a GSD is an aggressive breed, all the breeders out there are contributing to these problems by not understanding that aspect of the dogs they breed. Everyday life, many times triggers aggression in dogs and because so many do not understand HOW it was triggered or if it was appropriate, we have dogs suffering, people confused about how to handle it and so on. I can't tell you how many dogs come here for training to deal with aggression issues. That's 90% of my clients trying to understand that aspect of their dogs. Breeders need to understand that aspect as well but when you get clever with training methods, that render that aspect of the test in SchH far less effectiive than it used to be, it is taking away a very important test. IMO, it is the most important test.


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## Chris Wild

I'll take a stab at Anne's question of what traits does SchH put on display, though I'm sure I'll probably leave something out. I think it very pertinent to a discussion that relates to what titles are "acceptable for breeding" and to illustrate why I at least don't think other titles in other venues even come close. Even in the state of SchH today.

Tracking
The dog's ability to maintain mental focus and concentration at a very detail oriented task for a lengthy period of time without losing focus or concentration or getting stressed. All while working independently on his own and solving problems on his own confidently and surely without influence, direction or much in the way of encouragement from his handler. In some ways, his ability to take charge of the task at hand and lead his handler (and often, at least in training, his ability to show selective disobedience and do what he knows is to be done even if his handler is completely lost). His ability to shift mental focus from tracking to obedience and then back to tracking again (at the articles) seamlessly. I would also go so far as to say that it also tests the dogs ability to take his natural instincts and utilize them in an unnatural way because that is how his handler wants him to work. The old "SchH tracking isn't real tracking" argument. Well no, it's not but that's part of the whole point. In a natural state dogs would be air scenting, casting, trailing, not tracking in the manner of a SchH dog. But any dog can do that. Here in some ways we're testing whether the dog can resist his natural impulses and tendencies with regard to following scent and instead use those fundmental abilities in a different manner. Oh, and then there's the whole scenting component, but again any dog has an incredible nose so to me that is a very minor part of what SchH tracking is about.

Obedience
The most obvious being is the dog trainable, and trainable for a variety of different tasks, all of which require mastering different skillsets and all of which serve a practical, useful purpose. Will he work with the handler willingly and happily, not begrudginly. Can he withstand the stress of the environment and distraction while maintaining his focus, attention to handler and responsiveness to commands. Can he withstand the stress of balancing precision and correctness without losing enthusiasm and attitude. Can he transition seamlessly from active to passive states of obedience. Can he maintain that focus and willingness for an extended period of time, working for no more reward than the occasional pat and "good boy". Can he work in drive while keeping that drive contained, focused and channeled properly (not leaking all over the place with whining and bouncing and barking). Can he modulate the amount of drive and physical energy and effort he expresses to correctly match the task at hand (staying still on out of motions, moving at a moderate pace.. again cleanly without leaking drive.. in heeling, and hitting the after burners on send out and recall). Then can he also settle and turn that all off when appropriate (on the long down), moving to a calm and relaxed mental state not just barely containing it and staying put only because he knows he has to. The length of the obedience routine also tests mental and physical stamina, and of course the retrieve obstacles test a bit of physical ability as well. And can he do it off lead with nothing keeping him there or keeping him working but his relationship with his handler. Used to be, can he do it as well off lead as on (why I think the old SchH1 with both heeling patterns was a better test... scary how many dogs showed a completely different picture when the leash came off and what that could tell about the dog).

And then of course as others have mentioned, *how* the dog was able to be trained to do all of that, the methods used, the challenges encountered, what parts were easy and what parts were not, tells a great deal more.

Gotta go do some work at work, so will answer with regard to my feelings on protection later when I can slack off again.


----------



## Chris Wild

Vandal said:


> Yes, that is closer to what I am talking about. See, you DID know what you like and I like what you like.
> If you were at a trial, where would you most likely see the things you don't like? What exercises in what phases?


Ok, one quick last little bit before I'm back to work. Not Lies, but I'll weigh in on this because the hectic/frantic behavior is a huge pet peeve of mine as well. I cannot stand it. I see this in obedience more than any other phase. Dogs who don't move smoothly in heeling, but rather are leaking drive through lots of displacement behaviors (barking, whining, bouncing, nipping the handler). To me this isn't the expression of enthusiasm and willingness many people think it is, but rather an expression of inability to fully contain and control drive. Of course I am also aware that a lot of the new fangled training methods, especially in the hands of some, do a great job of teaching just this sort of behavior. 

Dogs who can barely contain themselves on the out of motions. Not just because they're are anticipating a recall, but because they literally just cannot keep still and switch gears (mentally) from moving to being still. And I'm seeing it more and more on the long down. Rather than settle, switching mentally to a calm and relaxed state, more and more dogs I see are, for lack of a better word, just buzzing with energy. You can almost see the current crackling around them. They never settle. Their bodies are still (well, sometimes... other times there is a lot of fidgeting), but their mind is not. You can tell they are barely contained and are on the verge of breaking and the only thing holding them there is because they know they must stay down... or else. They never really settle mentally.


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## Mrs.K

AbbyK9 said:


> I meant photos of the dogs actually working, not photos of the dogs' conformation.
> 
> Anyone could make it appear like their dog ALWAYS has great focus on the field if they only post pictures and clips where the dog is actually focusing on them during heeling. Even if they barely scraped by to get the legs for their obedience titles and even if the dog only looks up at them every so often rather than keeping focus.


That is why I think it's funny when somebody is posting a biting picture of their pup and ask "What ya think about his bite."

You just can't tell from a picture all alone. You can get a great shot but the next second he could have lost the grip and literally flown all over the place.


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## selzer

I will not be in the majority in this group.

I title my dogs as it is a training goas and I learn from them along the process. 

If you want to compete in schutzhund, get a dog from a breeder who has produced competitive schutzhund dogs.

If you want to title in schutzhund, get a dog from a breeder who has titled schutzhund dogs.

If you want to comptete or title in other performance venues, buy a dog from someone who is familiar with that/ titles their dogs in that.

If you want a pet, do not insist on buying a puppy from people who compete in schutzhund. May it work out just fine, sure. Are you likely to be seriously overmatched, well, it is certainly possible if the breeder does not get good infromation from you about your knowledge, experience, energy levels, etc. 

Getting a pup out of parents who are titled in some sort of perfomance venue does give you some information. The breeders want the sire and dam to be trainable, they care enough to put a title on them, the dogs have to be stable enough to manage the dog show environment.

In some ways the more the breeders do with their animals, the more likely you will be to get a nice tempered pup.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> I will not be in the majority in this group.
> 
> I title my dogs as it is a training goas and I learn from them along the process.
> 
> If you want to compete in schutzhund, get a dog from a breeder who has produced competitive schutzhund dogs.
> 
> If you want to title in schutzhund, get a dog from a breeder who has titled schutzhund dogs.
> 
> If you want to comptete or title in other performance venues, buy a dog from someone who is familiar with that/ titles their dogs in that.
> 
> If you want a pet, do not insist on buying a puppy from people who compete in schutzhund. May it work out just fine, sure. Are you likely to be seriously overmatched, well, it is certainly possible if the breeder does not get good infromation from you about your knowledge, experience, energy levels, etc.
> 
> Getting a pup out of parents who are titled in some sort of perfomance venue does give you some information. The breeders want the sire and dam to be trainable, they care enough to put a title on them, the dogs have to be stable enough to manage the dog show environment.
> 
> In some ways the more the breeders do with their animals, the more likely you will be to get a nice tempered pup.


I actually agree with that. In the US it is possible to do that, over here however, every dog has to be titled in order to be bred and getting the pink papers. 

The breeders that don't title and only breed GSD's as pets are called backyard breeders and you don't know what you get because there are no papers. 

So you either buy from a breeder that titles in Schutzhund or Herding. Problem is that there are much more Schutzhund Dogs out there than Herding dogs. 

I do agree though and I honestly believe that Schutzhund is not the only way to title a dog and proof that he has sound nerves and temperament I understand that, however, it would be almost impossible to set it up. It would be too much chaos, too much logistic, too much admistrative issues and way to expensive. 

while I don't like that anyone can breed dogs and get AKC papers I do like that you can pretty much breed GSD's for Agility or GSD's for Rescue without having to title them in Schutzhund and still proof that they can work while titling them in Agility or getting them certified in Rescue. 
They can still be Allrounder.


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## Liesje

The one issue with the HGH herding in the USA is that there's only a handful of people that are setup to do this and they are on the extreme coasts. Even if you are willing to send your dog away for the training, often trainers are booked. Right now I am on a waiting list for herding lessons from someone who hasn't even been doing it all that long and is not affiliated with any particular organization or venue. I've been on a waiting list since summer of 2009 and this is just half a dozen sheep in a pen or small field.


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## Vandal

I think the GSD was developed to tend large flocks of sheep, not six or seven. What a GSD is, IMO, is designed for larger flocks and that is where you will see the obedience, nerves and yes, even aggression when those unruly rams decide to challenge the dog. Weak dogs will not stand up to that nor will they be able to contend with the stress involved. I have watched Ulf with his dogs on video and you don't hear shouting when he is commanding the dog, it is all rather quiet and composed and the dog is hearing him, in spite of the huge attraction that exists there. It takes a certain kind of GSD, ...... that is disappearing, unfortunately.


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## Ruthie

Vandal said:


> There used to be a guy in my area who came to all the trials with dogs he trained himself. The dogs and the training were simply awful. Did I get the impression that guy understood what he was doing or "knew" his dog? Uh no. I have been doing this long enough and helping enough people train their dogs to know that a large majority know much less about what their dog is doing in, for example, protection than many of you would believe or accept..


One person doesn't make the rule, and I didn't say that training your dog makes you an expert. I said it makes you know your dog BETTER. How much less would the guy have known about his dog if he hadn't worked him at all.



Vandal said:


> ...Breeders need to understand that aspect as well but when you get clever with training methods, that render that aspect of the test in SchH far less effective than it used to be, it is taking away a very important test. IMO, it is the most important test.


The training method doesn't change fundamentally who the dog is. You are going to learn about your dog in the process, and when you train more than one dog or with other dogs you see the differences and similarities. 

How many times, Anne, have you said that you don't know until you see it? How would you expect someone to know about their dog's drives if they are NOT out there training. I am not saying that everyone that works a dog knows dogs, but they have a much better chance than someone who doesn't.



Selzer said:


> If you want a pet, do not insist on buying a puppy from people who compete in schutzhund. May it work out just fine, sure. Are you likely to be seriously overmatched, well, it is certainly possible if the breeder does not get good information from you about your knowledge, experience, energy levels, etc.


I really do disagree with that. It shouldn't take a "special" GSD to compete in SchH. It should be a NORMAL GSD. If you are "seriously overmatched" then you don't have any business owning a GSD.

I believe that any novice dog owner who is willing to put in the time to learn and train their dog can handle any WL dog with a correct temperament.


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## selzer

Amy, I disagree with that. If you noticed, I made a distinction between titling and competing. I think that the people who compete are breeding dogs that can knock your socks off. 

There is a difference between people who title their dogs and people who compete with their dogs. 

I title my dogs. Three tries (3 legs) is usually sufficient at any level, and while I like blue ribbons, am happy with red, yellow, and white, and manage them as often as not, I am satisfied with the green ribbons. I am not looking for a perfect 100 or 200 score, and I am not going to keep going back and back and back to get an RAE or a UDX. 

People who compete are pretty much anal about it. Whatever they are competing in. My guess is Schutzhund is no different. The guys going overseas to compete over there, the people with schutzhund champions, those guys are not going to get there with normal dogs. They have to be over the top dogs, otherwise they will not be noticed. I think with a protection sport, maybe having a dog that does everything asked of him is simply not enough, you need the added edge and to compete in that venue you are probably producing dogs that are going to be difficult for someone who does not give you good information about their knowledge, experience and energy levels.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> I think the GSD was developed to tend large flocks of sheep, not six or seven. What a GSD is, IMO, is designed for larger flocks and that is where you will see the obedience, nerves and yes, even aggression when those unruly rams decide to challenge the dog. Weak dogs will not stand up to that nor will they be able to contend with the stress involved. I have watched Ulf with his dogs on video and you don't hear shouting when he is commanding the dog, it is all rather quiet and composed and the dog is hearing him, in spite of the huge attraction that exists there. It takes a certain kind of GSD, ...... that is disappearing, unfortunately.


Yup. I totally agree. It's one reason why I want to get my dogs into herding besides search and rescue. If something will proof their ability to work it is herding. Ulf isn't too far away from where we move and I will certainly try to get into his program.


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## Vandal

> The training method doesn't change fundamentally who the dog is. You are going to learn about your dog in the process, and when you train more than one dog or with other dogs you see the differences and similarities


You are not understanding what I am talking about. I am talking about training that in no way brings out the dog's natural aggression. I am not really arguing against titling either but I am challenging people to come up with better reasons for it than the ones I constantly read on this board. Lots of people spend time with and "know" what their dogs does in certain situations...even those who own pets. I am asking WHAT do they know.

It is not just one person Amy, that was just an example but SchH clubs are full of other examples of the same thing.


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## AbbyK9

> you are probably producing dogs that are going to be difficult for someone who does not give you good information about their knowledge, eperience and energy levels.


I think it's sad that there is such a split in the breed. You have so many people who want a German Shepherd with the temperament of a Labrador, and so many breeders are caving in to that and breeding what sells instead of what the breed ought to be.

IMHO a German Shepherd should be able to do Schutzhund or obedience or herding or compete in any other venue their owner chooses and do well. When you get a dog that doesn't have any herding instinct or cannot do any protection work, it's not really a German Shepherd anymore because those are some traits that should be found in a GSD.

Maybe folks who want a laid back dog, one that doesn't have any drive or "edge", should stick with a different breed that better suits their need? Maybe breeders should stop producing to sell to them.


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## Vandal

Maybe someone will volunteer to tell people what the SchH exercises are designed to test . That was my original question that no one has yet answered. People who claim to know their dogs because of SchH should be able to explain that.

Edited to add: I am specifically talking about the protection phase.


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## Ruthie

selzer said:


> Amy, I disagree with that. If you noticed, I made a distinction between titling and competing. I think that the people who compete are breeding dogs that can knock your socks off.
> 
> There is a difference between people who title their dogs and people who compete with their dogs.
> 
> I title my dogs. Three tries (3 legs) is usually sufficient at any level, and while I like blue ribbons, am happy with red, yellow, and white, and manage them as often as not, I am satisfied with the green ribbons. I am not looking for a perfect 100 or 200 score, and I am not going to keep going back and back and back to get an RAE or a UDX.
> 
> People who compete are pretty much anal about it. Whatever they are competing in. My guess is Schutzhund is no different. The guys going overseas to compete over there, the people with schutzhund champions, those guys are not going to get there with normal dogs. They have to be over the top dogs, otherwise they will not be noticed. I think with a protection sport, maybe having a dog that does everything asked of him is simply not enough, you need the added edge and to compete in that venue you are probably producing dogs that are going to be difficult for someone who does not give you good information about their knowledge, experience and energy levels.


Yes, I certainly think that there is a continuum with dogs that are produced from two SchH titled dogs. But it doesn't take a super duper GSD to title in SchH. It takes a GSD with proper drives, temperament, nerve... If they don't have that, they shouldn't be bred to begin with.

I very little experience with national or world level competitors, but I have met a couple and they didn't strike me as extreme or unmanageable. I have seen some at local SchH trials that were hectic/frantic like Lies and Chris talked about, but I don't consider that to be correct.

I am just curious what your experience with protection work is? Have you met dogs who compete or is your opinion based on talking with people?


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## cliffson1

Selzer,
Have you ever participated in a protection sport, ever trained in a protection sport, if not; where are you getting the "basis" for these opinions of what type of dog it takes to do protection sports. Just curious!


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## Whiteshepherds

Ruthie said:


> I really do disagree with that. It shouldn't take a "special" GSD to compete in SchH. It should be a NORMAL GSD. If you are "seriously overmatched" then you don't have any business owning a GSD.
> 
> I believe that any novice dog owner who is willing to put in the time to learn and train their dog can handle any WL dog with a correct temperament.


But isn't that the problem? GSD's aren't always "correct". How many novice dog owners spend more time and money than they ever imagined possible trying to fix dogs with faulty temperaments?

These owners aren't always over matched, they're sometimes dealing with timid, overly aggressive, nervous or unstable dogs. Their only crime is not being able to tell a good temperament from a bad one when they get a puppy.


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## selzer

If you read my statement, the statement is that people have to give you good information about their knowledge, experience, and energy levels in order to properly match you with a puppy. 

That is true in whatever venue you are in, but in protection, I am guessing that it would be even more the case. 

And I made a distinction between those who compete, and those who title. In my sports those who compete are anal. If they thought that by increasing the hock length of a dog to double its size, they could run a better course, they would be breeding for that. They would certainly be choosing a puppy based on that over many more important qualities.

I have talked to plenty of people who have working line dogs and are now looking for showline dogs because of the energy levels required. 

I read people on here talking about exercising dogs three hours a day, good grief!

My point in my post is that people who do not give good information on what they know and what they have done, and what they expect to do with the dog, can be overmatched if they get a dog from a breeder is a competitor with their dogs. 

In the post where they were dissing Vegas, they showed the working dog trials. Those dogs were insane. I think they were bred for that kind of drive to compete in working dog trials. A good moderate dog is probably not going to be invited. 

I do not participate in protection sports. A dog with good character will protect if and when they need to. I have been in that situation one night with two of my girls and they did exactly what they should have. 

On the other hand, I have seen a rather extreme police dog, that went for my dog when we were just walking down the street. Your ordinary pet owner would have a heck of a time dealing with that.


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## Doc

I miss Bernd, Bodo, Vol and all the rest of the guys and gals that were a joy to watch. And the reward for these wonderful examples of this breed wasn't a ball, a treat, a chest rub but rather the satisfaction of a job well done.


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## Ruthie

Whiteshepherds said:


> But isn't that the problem? GSD's aren't always "correct". How many novice dog owners spend more time and money than they ever imagined possible trying to fix dogs with faulty temperaments?
> 
> These owners aren't always over matched, they're sometimes dealing with timid, overly aggressive, nervous or unstable dogs. Their only crime is not being able to tell a good temperament from a bad one when they get a puppy.


That is EXACTLY the point. If breeders were working the dogs and seeing that they are NOT correct, they wouldn't be breeding them.

This is the reason that we went with a working line dog for our "pet' we felt like we would have a better chance of getting a correct dog from someone who was working their dogs and was breeding titled dogs because they see their nerves and drives in action.


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## cliffson1

Selzer,
So you think that people exercising a dog for three hours is the norm, so you think that people going from working lines to the showlines is the norm? You also have read many many times on this forum from people firsthand that workinglines can cap their drives, that their workinglines live in the house with them with no problem(with no mention of 3 hour daily activity)..Forgot those posts. Right!!
How often do you hear a person who has workinglines say they are going back to showlines here....can't remember myself...yet I always hear people here say that their next dog will be a workingline usually because of some weakness in temperament from their current dog.
Not saying you are wrong just saying that the dialogue on this forum does not seem support those opinions. 
I remember going to conformation shows and hearing conformation people saying "if you train your dog in Sch then it will become aggressive and dangerous". I remember rolling my eyes up in my head and thinking, "these people don't have a clue about which they speak, but they honestly BELIEVE what they are saying. Probably somebody TOLD them this after seeing a sch trial somewhere and they saw a strong dog and didn't understand what they saw. If you go to conformation ring today you will have people there who believe this and some are judges. And yet I have Anne on the other hand saying the sch dogs are no longer aggressive enough. 
Now I wonder which one knows what they are talking about(in regard to Sch)and which one is just passing along talk they have heard cause they don't have a clue. 
There is so much misinformation passed out in this breed, usually because people pontificate on things they aren't familar with.JMO


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## Vandal

> And yet I have Anne on the other hand saying the sch dogs are no longer aggressive enough.


I think I give up. That is NOT what Anne is saying.


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## Samba

Protection sports can be so beneficial to understanding a dog's make up and character. It is not just about whether they will protect you in an alley and if you "feel" your dog would, then its all good.


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## cliffson1

Sorry, Anne, I stand corrected. I shouldn't pontificate on things I'm not familar with...my Bad!!


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> Selzer,
> So you think that people exercising a dog for three hours is the norm, so you think that people going from working lines to the showlines is the norm? You also have read many many times on this forum from people firsthand that workinglines can cap their drives, that their workinglines live in the house with them with no problem(with no mention of 3 hour daily activity)..Forgot those posts. Right!!
> How often do you hear a person who has workinglines say they are going back to showlines here....can't remember myself...yet I always hear people here say that their next dog will be a workingline usually because of some weakness in temperament from their current dog.
> Not saying you are wrong just saying that the dialogue on this forum does not seem support those opinions.
> I remember going to conformation shows and hearing conformation people saying "if you train your dog in Sch then it will become aggressive and dangerous". I remember rolling my eyes up in my head and thinking, "these people don't have a clue about which they speak, but they honestly BELIEVE what they are saying. Probably somebody TOLD them this after seeing a sch trial somewhere and they saw a strong dog and didn't understand what they saw. If you go to conformation ring today you will have people there who believe this and some are judges. And yet I have Anne on the other hand saying the sch dogs are no longer aggressive enough.
> Now I wonder which one knows what they are talking about(in regard to Sch)and which one is just passing along talk they have heard cause they don't have a clue.
> There is so much misinformation passed out in this breed, usually because people pontificate on things they aren't familar with.JMO


If you think there are not dogs with over the top drives and energy, than I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

I sold a puppy, a puppy I thought could be a schutzhund prospect to a family this year. They wanted the black and red pup, even though I felt the black and tan pup was a better match. The black and red pup had some very strong drive. (Oh yeah, one of my pups from the previous litter IS doing schutzhund.) Any how, they gave me a good song and dance and against my gut feeling, I sold them the higher drive female. 

What a mistake. I have her back now. 

What I am saying is if you are not honest about what you want and what you have done and what you want to do, well, than it can be a major issue. Dogs bred specifically for Schutzhund, as Competitors will do, are more likely to have those traits that DO get people in trouble -- high energy, high drive, persistance, hardness, maybe a little stubborness and independence. 

There are people posting here that do not have titles on ANY dog. But they are going off about how they got their dog out of schutzhund parents. Good for them when it works out. 

As for people exercising their puppy for three hours -- no one is arguing with them! This seems to be a predominantly working line board, and I sit back and watch what some of these people say. And I think to myself, if that is what owning a working line dog is like, no thank you very much. I will take my nervey basket case showline dogs that I or anyone else can train and live with without going off the deep end. 

On this board I hear everyone going off about getting pups out of schutzhund titled parents. In real life, I hear people going off about getting dogs that do not have all of that. So what do I believe? I think it is inbetween somewhere. I think the board caters more to the working line mindset, and some will not post anything that does not follow the flow and others find places that are more to their lines. And I think that people coming to me, are looking for show lines. So you will have people with different thinking. 

I never said that I thought a schutzhund titled dog would be aggressive, or that titling a dog in schutzhund would make it aggressive or to be a danger to live with. In fact when you protection train your dog, if you know what you are doing, the dog should be very safe, because it should be confident, obedient, and experienced with its handler.


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## cliffson1

I know there are dogs with over the top drives, I see them as faulty as the weak nerved shy dogs and have said so many times. (it just seems that people remember me saying weak nerved shy but forget I criticize workinglines also.) 
I agree with you that you should place your dogs with the right situation if possible. I try to do that and I have also, against better judgement let a dog go to a home I din't think fits.
But the majority of workingline dogs can be handled by the average family and are in actual average families. 
I wasn't insinuating that you thought that Sch dogs were aggressive. I was trying to make the point that often people's opinions of things they donot have first hand knowledge of, is often faulty. That's all. 
BTW, in case you are wondering, I have owned ASL in the seventies, left because of temperament. I owned a WGSL dog in the nineties, raised it from 8 weeks, took SG-2 at the Miseastern regionals, bred her to a Czech dog and kept a puppy that I titled to Sch one before sending him to NYstate police. Currently own a Czech, DDR, and West workingline dog. So I try to give opinions on these lines based somewhat on having firsthand knowledge of what they are. 
I appreciate your clarification.
Cliff


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## AgileGSD

Liesje said:


> I have done rally and obedience (and many other) titles with a GSD that does not have the same nerves and drive that are appropriate for breeding. What does it say about using those titles as breed worthiness when a dog with some problems can attain them no problem?


 As unfortunate as it is, the same is true of all venues including SchH. There are dogs who can get the titles and even do well in competition that are lacking in drive or soundness. No title really guarantees the dog has an ideal temperament. 

I will say though that at the highest levels, AKC obedience is not easy and not something all dogs could easily accomplish. Really, I have known dogs including GSDs who weren't capable of getting even a CD because they'd never stand for exam off leash or they couldn't ever be trusted to hold a stay with strange dogs so close, regardless of how much training they have. I have known dogs including GSDs who have basically flunked out of agility due to lack of willingness/drive, being overly sensitive, noise phobia or having issues with other dogs/people. OTOH with a dedicated, determined and talented trainer, even weird dogs can accomplish pretty impressive titles. 




selzer said:


> In some ways the more the breeders do with their animals, the more likely you will be to get a nice tempered pup.


 I do agree this tends to be true. Not always but often the more involved a breeder is with multiple aspects of training/competition/work the more picky they will be about their breeding choices. 



Vandal said:


> I think the GSD was developed to tend large flocks of sheep, not six or seven. What a GSD is, IMO, is designed for larger flocks and that is where you will see the obedience, nerves and yes, even aggression when those unruly rams decide to challenge the dog.


 I have known SchH people who have tried herding and have been surprised that the majority of the things that are needed for a good herding dogs are the same things that make a good SchH dog. I have heard from very knowledgeable people that good GSDs are often "too much" for working small flocks in close quarters, so I'm not sure how much of a test that sort of herding is for them.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> Maybe someone will volunteer to tell people what the SchH exercises are designed to test . That was my original question that no one has yet answered. People who claim to know their dogs because of SchH should be able to explain that.
> 
> Edited to add: I am specifically talking about the protection phase.


Vandal, I already told you what the protection phase was for. 

Back then they tested the courage of the dog, to see if he/she was good enough to do the job for military or police work. 

That is what it used to be for.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> If you think there are not dogs with over the top drives and energy, than I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
> 
> I sold a puppy, a puppy I thought could be a schutzhund prospect to a family this year. They wanted the black and red pup, even though I felt the black and tan pup was a better match. The black and red pup had some very strong drive. (Oh yeah, one of my pups from the previous litter IS doing schutzhund.) Any how, they gave me a good song and dance and against my gut feeling, I sold them the higher drive female.
> 
> What a mistake. I have her back now.
> 
> What I am saying is if you are not honest about what you want and what you have done and what you want to do, well, than it can be a major issue. Dogs bred specifically for Schutzhund, as Competitors will do, are more likely to have those traits that DO get people in trouble -- high energy, high drive, persistance, hardness, maybe a little stubborness and independence.
> 
> *This can be true but it doesn't have to be true. A well bred working line dog should have no problem to be placed into families. In germany the majority of the working line dogs actually do go into families. All our Champions have lived with us. Five males live peacefully together in the house with three little girls. We were able to walk the dogs, able to do anything and everything with them and never got in trouble with them. *
> 
> There are people posting here that do not have titles on ANY dog. But they are going off about how they got their dog out of schutzhund parents. Good for them when it works out.
> 
> As for people exercising their puppy for three hours -- no one is arguing with them! This seems to be a predominantly working line board, and I sit back and watch what some of these people say. And I think to myself, if that is what owning a working line dog is like, no thank you very much. I will take my nervey basket case showline dogs that I or anyone else can train and live with without going off the deep end.
> 
> *Selzer, puppies are suppossed to be like that. They are kids, they need to run around like crazy and explore the world but it does not take three hours of training or exercise each and every single day to tire them out. My Indra comes from one of the most high drive and energetic working lines out there and I don't need to train her three hours a day to get her tired.
> If I had her locked up in a crate every single day, all day long than yes, I would probably have a problem and a dog that is on the edge, dying to run for hours and hours and more hours.
> 
> I have days where I do nothing at all because even dogs need a break. I have two days per week where they don't exercise at all.
> All we do is to go on a walk and thats it. No clicker training, no sit-down-stay or leash training. Nothing at all and they need that too, just like we need a break from work every weekend to re-charge our batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> * On this board I hear everyone going off about getting pups out of schutzhund titled parents. In real life, I hear people going off about getting dogs that do not have all of that. So what do I believe? I think it is inbetween somewhere. I think the board caters more to the working line mindset, and some will not post anything that does not follow the flow and others find places that are more to their lines. And I think that people coming to me, are looking for show lines. So you will have people with different thinking.
> 
> *It is somewhere in the middle but a working line dog shouldn't have a problem to live in a regular family. However, what is a regular family? Over here people are already very active with their dogs. Most people don't know about crate training over here, they have a house with a garden, go on walks, riding their bikes with the dog, maybe even do some basic obedience and we do not have the same problems as I read them on here about dogs hanging themselves, or dogs getting shot...
> *
> I never said that I thought a schutzhund titled dog would be aggressive, or that titling a dog in schutzhund would make it aggressive or to be a danger to live with. In fact when you protection train your dog, if you know what you are doing, the dog should be very safe, because it should be confident, obedient, and experienced with its handler.
> 
> *It depends on how you train them. You can train a dog in Schutzhund that can't be handled by anyone but yourself. You can make a dog so aggressive that nobody can touch him anymore. A Schutzhund dog, trained by the wrong hands CAN be a danger to anyone around him. I've seen it and I still see it. They are trained by people who believe that if a Schutzhund dog doesn't go at his handler isn't a real Schutzhund dog. They can't be walked from the car to the field without biting their handlers in the arm or hand or anywhere else. These people are proud to have a "hard" dog and they want their dogs to be like that.
> I don't agree with that.
> 
> While I have never titled a dog myself, I've seen a lot at the Schutzhund Clubs. I've been growing up with the working line. I have three myself and my honest opinion is that you are right. It lies somewhere in the middle. German Shepherds are allrounder. They are good at everything but not the best at anything.
> 
> The problem is, not every dog is cut out for everything and that's okay. It's impossible to breed and expect that every single dog is cut out to be a top notch dog. Do you expect that from people? Not everybody is a genius. Not everybody is a top athlete, not everybody is good at everything.
> It's the same with every living breething thing out there. Not every horse is a jumper. You've got jumpers that are better at dressage than jumping and horses from great dressage lines that are good at jumping.
> 
> So what...
> *



*I guess my point is that we are dealing with living creatures. Each creature has it's own personality. It's likes and dislikes and potential. Sometimes I have the feeling that we talk about these dogs like they were lab-rats, sometimes people expect them to be like machines but they are not machines. They do act up, they have needs. 

Some breeders out there breed dogs that are not cut out for everybody, I do agree with that. But to be honest we have to look at the majority of buyers and if we are honest with ourselves, the majority of buyers is not the police, is not the military, is not Schutzhund. It's normal families, normal people like you and me and a well bred working line dog should NOT have any issues to live with these families. 

However, with a regular family I mean a family that does outdoor activities and doesn't sit in front of the TV or PC 24/7 and lock up their dog in a crate most of the day. 
*


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## Mrs.K

Oh and I want to add one more thing. 

There are too many breeders out there that want to better the breed already. And everytime somebody says "I want to better the breed" and starts breeding is producing more dogs. Honestly, it's not going to solve the problem. 

The military and the police won't knock on your door right away. There are not enough Schutzhund people out there that will buy your dogs either and where does the majority of the dogs go, once again? FAMILIES!

Anytime I see people talking about becoming a breeder I am like "Here we go again." and than you find the same people chat in the rescue places wondering why there are so many Shepherds in the shelters... 

Breeding is important but not everybody is cut out to be a good breeder and most breeders, if they admit it or not, sell to Families as well because if they wouldn't they'd sit on their puppies and if there is one thing a breeder can't do, it's to keep every single of his dogs.


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## gagsd

From the point of a newbie.....
Schutzhund protection tests aggression, but more importantly how that aggression is channelled. Is it appropriate, controlled, nervy, defensive? How and why that aggression is surfacing.


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## Samba

I have recently helped to place two pups who were too much for their families. 

Both of these guys turned out to be really nice dogs. They are greatly appreciated in their new family situations. 

I am beginning to see failing at placement as a good sign! Really, one can not go by whether a dog makes it in a home or not. I find that it says more about the home than the dog. So, breeding for a particular owner is not a good idea in my mind. Finding the right owner is actually the goal. 

The AKC titles to be earned are not too much about breeding to me. It is of course a good idea and some understanding of the dog can be learned. It is by no means a way to meet criteria for breeding. These are classified as companion events and I have seen lots of dogs who were not breedworthy with such titles. 

As far as getting a dog who I hope will have GSD characteristics. I look at the breeder first. What titles and accomplishments do they have? I have found this is more important than the titles any of their particular dogs have. The degree of experience, understanding and accomplishment in the breed is important because the breeder's brain is making the decision as to what to combine. I want to know about that brain as much as anything.


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## AgileGSD

I wouldn't hesitate to suggest a sound working bred dog for a family, as long as the family was suitable for a GSD. I generally end up talking more people out of GSDs than encouraging them to get one though. Most pet owners want a dog that looks like a GSD but acts like a Golden. I don't know any breeder that consistently produces that and really, the people who want it don't really want a GSD. They just like the idea of having one, as long as it wants to make doggy friends at the dog park . is "sweet" with everyone they know and never, ever shows any sort of aggression for any reason (unless of course there are burglars, then the dog should immediately know there are bad guys who need to be attacked). 

There are difficult and down right nutty dogs in all lines - show, working and pet. One of the scariest dog I've ever been around (of any breed) was an 8 month old pet bred GSD who had already bitten numerous people. His last bite before I met him was predatory aggression directed at a child he lived with - ran at her from behind, grabbed her by the neck/head and knocked her down. I was to evaluate the dog but there was no way I couldn't have gotten near him without getting bitten. He spent the first few minutes lunging and barking at me, until I threw a handful of treats on the ground to distracted him. After he ate the treats, he stood at his owner's side and never stopped staring at me with his body stiff as could be. The dog's sire was apparently even aggressive to his owner/the breeder. Unfortunately, the owners couldn't bring themselves to have the dog PTS so they returned him to the breeder, still intact. I'm sure he went on to sire some lovely puppies. That dog was the result of a breeder not knowing and not caring about temperament traits and the inheritance of them, just breeding to produce more puppies.


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## Uniballer

Samba said:


> I am beginning to see failing at placement as a good sign! Really, one can not go by whether a dog makes it in a home or not. I find that it says more about the home than the dog.


I have heard stories about breeders (in The Old Days, of course) always selling every puppy, and taking back the ones that the pet homes couldn't deal with for possible breeding stock because "They are the good ones". I don't really know if it's true...


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## Doc

Hmmm, I'll give it a shot. German shepherds should be internally wired (genetic obedience) to perform the tasks he/she faces. The ability to react in a situation is not gained by training a dog what to do but rather to cultivate the dogs instinct. You "train" monkeys how to ride a bicycle, you don't "train" a dog to perform in Schutzhund - you cultivate/encourage him to maximize his inherited genetically wired abilities.
As the "old" pros say, there is a huge difference in training a dog how to do something rather than honing a inherited ability. You don't train dogs to be great - you breed great dogs. For example, some GS couldn't smell a pile of poop unless their nose was buried in it while others can detect it from a long distance, and probably know how fresh it is. Now which dog (genetics) would you want in your kennel if you are interested in tracking? The same reasoning should apply to Schutzund, Agility, Obediance, etc. 
What I currently see and hear about is that a great deal of the "testing" does not addrress the dogs genetic obediance - his internal wiring - but rather a great deal of today's titles reward a persons ability to train a dog to perform. And now you add "professional" handlers that can hide many of the weaknesses of a particular dog and you end up with titled dogs that may or may not be breed worthy. JMO


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## Chris Wild

Vandal said:


> Maybe someone will volunteer to tell people what the SchH exercises are designed to test . That was my original question that no one has yet answered. People who claim to know their dogs because of SchH should be able to explain that.
> 
> Edited to add: I am specifically talking about the protection phase.


I really think in many ways it does us no good to appear to always be focusing on protection, particularly when talking with those unfamiliar with SchH. Surely, it's the phase more than the others that separates the weak from the strong, but at the same time this is a 3 phase activity and a big part of it's value as a test is that versatility.

But anyway, onto protection.

In a nutshell, the dog's willingness to engage a human in an aggressive manner, but to do so in a way that is tempered to the situation. The dog must show judgment, self control, and confidence to modulate his aggressive response to what is needed to accomplish the task, and no more. That means no biting when a bark will do, biting when needed, and escalating from there in response to threat from the helper in order to subdue the helper. During the biting portions, the dog should not be just going along for the ride but rather should be escalating his response as the helper responds until the dog overpowers the helper and the helper submits by ceasing. And it should be biting, not just "gripping".

And then his ability to also maintain clear headed and under control, both self control and control of the handler. He must be responsive to the handler and able to perform obedience as well amidst immense distraction and stress. He must transition frequently throughout the routine between different behaviors, and the drives and mental states that underlay those behaviors, and do so quickly and cleanly. He must be able to go "0 to 60" at the drop of a hat, and then shut off again. This puts a tremendous amount of stress on the dog, and while certainly some of that stress comes in the form of pressure from the helper, most of it comes in the form of the mental stress involved in all of those drive transitions and doing them smoothly and purely and, remaining clear and responsive. Not losing committment because of the obedience (common), or getting hectic and crazy and unable to think due to the stress (also common).

As far as the exercises:
Blind search: The dog's ability to perform a directed search, off lead, moving away from the handler at great speed and then returning to the handler and taking direction. Clearly this demonstrates obedience, at a level of immense distraction. Dog knows exactly where the helper is, and he wants to get to the helper, but puts off his own desire for drive satisfaction in favor of following the handler's instruction. There is also a physical and mental conditioning component, at least at the higher levels with multiple blinds. Surprising how many dogs are winded after this, or so inhibited and stressed due to inner conflict of performing all of that obedience, that they can't bark well.

Hold and bark: The dog's ability to transition immediately into aggression, but a tempered form of aggression that is modulated to the situation. The dog knows the helper is the "bad guy", but he is neutral, neither threatening nor behaving like prey, so a bite is inappropriate. The dog must instead control the helper with his bark. The bark should not be a prey flushing bark, nor should it be a "don't come any closer Mr. Boogeyman" pure defense bark. It should be a powerful, convincing bark that subdues and dominates the helper.

Call out and escape set up: The dog's ability to transition from aggression in the hold and bark to a state of containment and obedience. Handler has arrived, handler is taking charge, dog must disengage the helper and return to the handler and heel with the handler while the handler orders the helper about and the helper moves in an unthreatening manner. Dog should remain watchful of course (the heeling here should NOT look like heeling in obedience, with the dog looking at the handler and focused on the handler and oblivious to what else is going on).

Escape: The dog maintain that state of containment and obedience in a down with the handler now away and out of sight, and then transition immediately to prey when the helper tries to escape and catch the helper. The dog must be paying attention and must make that transition fast in order to catch the helper before he reaches a certain distance, or the dog is dismissed from protection. The dog should also not just be going along for the ride as many do. The expercise is prevention of an escape and the dog should be doing just that, trying to stop the helper in his tracks and drag him down and subdue him.

Out and reattack: After the helper has stopped escaping and gone neutral again, the dog must let go and transition back to a state of either aggression (active guard) or watchful containment/obedience (passive guard). Then the dog must respond to a direct frontal attack from the helper out of that position, making the transition back to fighting mode, and not being rattled by the fact that the prey he just apprehended is now attacking him (which does rattle a lot of dogs). The dog must take stick hits, and here should escalate his response to the helper by biting harder, and fighting to subdue the helper, not just going along for the drive or taking the stick hits. The really good dogs fight back appropriately, and I've seen some do it so effectively they stop the helper on the drive or cause him to have to change direction to finish the drive. Then when he's subdued and has stopped fighting and gone neutral again, let go and go back to guarding. Having just recently engaged this helper both as prey and in a fight, this is one of the hardest transitions in the whole routine.

Pick up and transport: Remain in a guard, active or passive (though I strongly prefer active) until the handler arrives again and takes charge and orders the helper about. Heel with the handler, deferring to the handler's control and commands but remaining watchful (again none of that handler focus heeling like obedience.. the dog should watch the helper) as the helper turns and starts walking in a neutral manner with dog and handler following a few steps behind.

Attack: Respond immediately and engage the helper when he whips around and charges at dog and handler. Another drive transition that must happen quickly, and for a weaker dog or one who becomes overly stressed or inhibitied by the control of all of that heeling in the transport, this can be a problem. Especially as again this is a frontal attack, not a prey situation like the escape, and it happens very fast. One minute the helper is calmly walking away, and a split second later the helper is practically on top of dog and handler attacking them. The dog must engage fully and commitedly in a split second, and again modulate his aggression appropriately as the helper escalates his pressure through a drive, until the helper is subdued and goes neutral again.

Out and pick up and side transport: Then again once the helper is subdued the dog must gear himself back down and transition mental states again in order to let go and guard, then defer to his handler when the handler arrives to take control, heel with the handler and now perform another transport of the helper, this time with the helper right next to the dog and sleeve hanging right in the dog's face. Then after delivering the helper to the judge, dog and handler take a very long walk heeling downfield directly away from the helper. More control and the associated drive containment and it's accompanying stress required.

Courage test and on: The dog is sent from one end of the field to intercept an attack from the helper charging straight at dog and handler from the other side of the field, yelling and waving the stick in a threatening manner. The dog must engage quickly with full commitment. No hesitating or veering off or changing direction to come at the helper from a less frontal and thus more safe angle. But no launching with reckless abandon at a prey object either. The dog should set himself and launch straight into the helper, trying to take him out like a linebacker. 

Then another out and guard when the helper stops fighting, then switching gears again when the neutral helper reattacks directly into the dog and drives the dog applying stick hits. Then another out and guard after the reattack, then handler arrives and another side transport of helper to judge. So several drive and mental transitions and modulating aggressive response appropriately to the helper's actions and then shutting off again and going back to a state of containment/obedience when the handler arrives and during the transport there in all of that.


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## Chris Wild

^^^ Should add, all of that above is the way it is *supposed* to be, with regard to the dog and the helperwork. Certainly it doesn't always go that way, but the question was what is SchH designed to test, not how is it often practiced.


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## Vandal

> Hmmm, I'll give it a shot. German shepherds should be internally wired (genetic obedience) to perform the tasks he/she faces. The ability to react in a situation is not gained by training a dog what to do but rather to cultivate the dogs instinct. You "train" monkeys how to ride a bicycle, you don't "train" a dog to perform in Schutzhund - you cultivate/encourage him to maximize his inherited genetically wired abilities.
> As the "old" pros say, there is a huge difference in training a dog how to do something rather than honing a inherited ability. You don't train dogs to be great - you breed great dogs. For example, some GS couldn't smell a pile of poop unless their nose was buried in it while others can detect it from a long distance, and probably know how fresh it is. Now which dog (genetics) would you want in your kennel if you are interested in tracking? The same reasoning should apply to Schutzund, Agility, Obediance, etc.
> What I currently see and hear about is that a great deal of the "testing" does not addrress the dogs genetic obediance - his internal wiring - but rather a great deal of today's titles reward a persons ability to train a dog to perform. And now you add "professional" handlers that can hide many of the weaknesses of a particular dog and you end up with titled dogs that may or may not be breed worthy. JMO


This is what I was getting at. I realize this thread is pages long and I posted quite a few times, making it maybe difficult to understand what I was asking but Doc nailed it.
On the bloodline split thread Cecila made this comment after watching the NASS videos....same line of thought:



> After looking at that last video, it is now obvious to me that good obedience is impossible without an appropriate genetic makeup


 
I said this:


> Most of the really good dogs I worked in SchH, yes, even the really aggressive and strong ones, were quite obedient. That obedience when they were working in a higher state of drive and also while being aggressive, said a great deal about the character of those dogs. That is distinctly an ability German Shepherds should possess and THAT is what I am talking about when I say an aggressive breed must be tested to determine if the dog has the character to use that aggression appropriately. If the dog cannot hear the handler or refuses to listen to the handler when working in aggression, he is not a correct GSD. The training in SchH now, ( and the judging), makes it possible to earn a title when the aggression is not tested and for me, that is a BIG problem.


I should have phrased it better when I said test aggression, I meant how the dog works when he is in that state of mind.


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## GSDElsa

OK, so I'll bite on what Ann would like to know: what Schutzhund means to me and why it is such an important criteria. Everyone differs, so I am giving you an opinion that strictly comes from "my heart" so to speak. I grew up competing in various horse sports...literally everything from hunters to western pleasure to riding "trotting" horses. However, my "thing" was always 3-day eventing. I did the other things because I was a good rider and could pretty much catch ride anything under the sun, but "three days, three ways" was IT for me. All other horses and horse sports, in my opinion, are nowhere even close to what 3-day eventing offers. For those that aren't familiar with eventing here's a basic background: it's a horse sport that originally developed as a way to test military horses' obedience, training, endurance, stamina, and bravery. On the first day, the horses do a dressage test in which a pattern is memorized and executed and each horse and rider is judged on how well they perform each movement. The second day is endurance, or cross county. This phase is to test a horses bravery, stamina, speed, and carefulness it it's steps. In the original 3-day (called a "long format"...but there are "short formats" as well), the horses had to do a several-mile long trot, then go immediately into a steeplechase phase (just like steeplechase jumping you see in Britain, but there is only one horse out there at a time), then another long trot. Then after all that, they get a 10 minute break and go into the cross country phase in which the horses gallops over several miles jumping over logs, ditches, stone walls, hay bales, water jumps...and sometimes even cars! On the third day there is show jumping, which is the standard jumping you see in an arena. This is done to show how well the horse recovers from the endurance day and that it can "keep it together" so to speak and complete an arena jumping course. That's eventing. And in my eyes, it's the best horse sport out there and all others are second fiddle. I've done them all. You can spend days arguing with me about it...it's just the way it is. No other sport does anything even close to testing the "whole horse" as 3-day eventing does. 

Does this sound familiar? 3 phases? Military test? Yes, so we can see why I think Schutzhund is PERFECT! I think SchH shows a dog's courage, stamina, ability to adjust and mold itself into a particular task, intelligence, desire to work, bond with the handler, etc. To ME...tracking shows a dogs scenting ability, as well as their prolonged mental stamina to "stay on target" and follow a difficult, lengthy task through to completion. Obedience shows how precise the dog can be, that it can execute commands exactly, maintain focus, and contain it's drive. Protection, in my opinion is the "most important" part of SchH, but I do not think it is the one that should be harped on. Just like I think the endurance phase of a 3-day event is the most important, I think it's the whole picture of the 3 different phases that creates the perfect horse. To me, protection shows the dog has aggression in the correct way: engages the helper, doesn't shy away or back down, etc. BUT at the same time, does so only when appropriate. No cheap shots to the sleeve (or leg...or hand), outing when they are supposed to, pays attention to the handler rather than the helper when it should, etc. 

So how does that all translate into what I like and don't? I like dogs that have a lot of spring in their step when doing obedience (a little "passagy" looking), but that aren't so frantic/wild/crazy that their butts are all over the place. I like a dog that does a down and seems sort of relaxed and not twitching to go (I like twitching, but in stuff like getting ready to start agility). In protection...I can't STAND when I see a dog get "cheap shots" on the bark and hold. I like when they are jumping, but not when they are sort of self-satisfying why hitting the sleeve constantly. I don't like it when I see the dog sort of think about the out when given the command. I like to see full speed ahead when they are getting ready to jump for the sleeve. Some dogs slow down a loooot. And I like when the dog will completely focus back on the handler when no "threat" is being shown.

Anyhow...that's just a few of my feelings with SchH and why I think it's so important. I'm definitely a newby with the sport, but I feel strongly about it. And it's not surprising considering I want a horse that has the bravery to forge through any and all obstacles. I expect the same from my dog. Like lies, i'm not sure I can describe specifically every little thing I see in a dog that I like or don't like. But probably in real time or asked to talk about specific videos, yes.


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## Wildtim

One thing that might be helpful in understanding what is being tested and what to look for is to look at the origins of the protection routine. Chris did a very good job of laying out the drives and characteristics one can see and should be looking throughout the protection routine. I can see though people wondering, "where did that come from?"

The protection routine as it is now conducted is essentially two scenarios where the dog will be used in different ways to apprehend a criminal or attacker. This is actually getting harder and harder to see as time goes on but that is what it is. For a parallel does anyone realize that Tia Chi (that "exercise" practiced by a billion senior citizens worldwide) has the same origins and moves as Kung Fu, arguably the most powerful and dangerous martial art. Anyway, the two scenarios:

The first is the "front half" of the routine, this is a find and arrest scenario, of a particularly stupid criminal because he tries to escape twice, but I digress. 

It starts out with the assumption that the helper is a criminal who has stolen something and is hiding from capture. The handler will direct their dog to various hides in an attempt to find this criminal. It is the dogs job to examine each location and find the guy. When the dog finds the guy he must both inform his handler and force the criminal to stay where he is essentially arrest him. 

When the handler arrives he takes control of the situation by calling his dog off and ordering the criminal out of his hiding place. The dog is then placed to guard the criminal, keeping him under arrest while the handler searches for the stolen material. You used to have to search the criminal as well as his hiding spot, but now we just search the hiding spot (this is why we go into the blind).

The criminal, now that we are out of sight, tries to escape from the dog. The dog should arrest him again, this time by biting and dragging the criminal to a stop. The criminal will then continue his escape attempt by attacking and trying to hurt the dog. This shouldn't work out well for him either. 

Again the handler steps in and now we have to get this criminal to the lockup. While doing this the criminal tries yet again to attack, before we finally get him safely put away.

When I look at the "routine" in this way it really helps me to understand what behaviors and attitude the dog is supposed to be showing. If we were dealing with a real criminal we would never want the passive deference to the handler we so often see, nor would we want a dog that in any way appeared to be lax towards the helper. Either of those conditions would actually put us, the handler, in danger and a dog that allowed that would be useless.

The second scenario, the "back half" is actually a more relevant scenario for personal protection. You dog set on someone threatening you would cover muggings and the like. This is a guarding scenario where the dog and handler are holding the line between a criminal and what he wants to get at. By the way this criminal is quite insane, to run charging and screaming at someone from 50+ yards away is not the act of a sane man. Seriously the handler would have plenty of time to raise a rifle, take careful aim and..... Well, I guess we have to assume all he has for a weapon is his dog.

Here we have a handler who has discovered a nutcase threatening him or whatever is behind him. I think of this as guarding something I cant move, otherwise the smart thing to do would be to leave the crazy guy alone and not yell at him which is where this scene starts. 

The handler orders the nutcase away. This just agitates the nutcase causing him to charge, screaming, and threatening with his weapon. When it is clear the idiot is actually attacking the handler sets his dog on the nutcase in question. It is the dogs job to make sure this crackpot gets no closer. The manic must be on something because after he first impact he actually resists before subsiding then after being released attacks again, before finally coming down off is high and allowing himself to be contained.

Obviously the routines as they are now done have become somewhat stylized and it is not longer so clear what is actually supposed to be going on. They were also never intended as complete training for the "real life" situations they represent but as enough beginning training to identify if the dog would be genetically capable of learning to do the real thing. It is still relevant though to understand what we are really training towards out there and to look at the dogs behavior and see if it is what we would want if this was "real". 

It's pretty frustrating to me that few discussions of schutzhund protection work, even published instruction and training manuals, look at the exercises as complete scenarios or even in context of their application. Even worse the judging of them sometimes seems completely divorced from the purpose of the exercise as well.


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## cliffson1

The definition that Doc gave and what Anne was seeking goes to the heart of what the test was designed to do from inception. Sch was a breeding tool, it was not a sport. People wanted to see the dog operate very effectievely in three primary areas that the dog was created to excel in its utility work. Sch became a sport. There is a distinct difference between sport and tool. We now focus on the training as opposed to the dog.


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## Liesje

I don't know where this fits into this discussion but one thing that saddens me is that with people training as a "sport", it seems so many don't want to try or don't see the value in doing anything other than what is part of the routine. For example I might get crap from someone for recalling my dog from a sit. "Why would you do that? In the routine you only recall from a down!" Well, I guess I don't see why the routine matters? My dog should recall when I say "hier" I don't care if he's sitting, lying down, or doing a handstand. I'm interested to see how my dogs do with a bite suit, I do a lot of obedience beyond the SchH3 routine, we do agility way beyond just jumping the 1m and retrieving over the a-frame. A few weeks ago for bitework we did some fun training to help the dog come faster and target better, basically the helper was moving and changing directions and/or the dog jumped over obstacles. Don't get me wrong I love SchH and a noob like me has enough trouble with the routines as they are but only doing that for a points tally is just boring for me and the dog. I want the dog to think and problem solve, not just do a pattern. Sometimes even dogs that score high in bitework just look like they are doing a pattern. Like when called out of the blind, the dog comes out so fast before the handler has even finished the "hi---" of the hier fuss command and I wonder if the handler yelled "pizza!" would that dog flip right into heel just as fast? Is that really what that exercise is all about? I don't know...


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## Vandal

I want to add that I have never bought into the idea that a strong dog is usually a dirty dog that is hard to control. That is what I consider to be a "schutzhund myth". Quite the contrary is what I have seen. People have maybe heard me talk about Enno vom Beilstein who was really one of the all time great GSDs. What made that dog special was not simply his tremendous power and aggression in the protection phase but his ability to stay "clear" when he was working in protection . There was no doubt for anyone watching, that he was NOT playing. He is the one dog I worked that I still have an absolute clear memory of. He intimidated me and I was wearing all the right equipment. I can't say I have ever worked another dog like that one as the helper. The dog had so much confidence, he would control the helper with his bark just as easily and convincingly as with his bite and could switch back and forth easily and without losing any of that power.He was willing to do whatever the handler asked him to do while in that aggressive state. Enno knew HE was in control. That was not something that could ever be trained...re-enforced perhaps... but what that dog showed when working in SchH was his genetics. I worked sons and grandsons and I sure didn't need an e-collar to "teach" the dog, nor did I ever need to apply harsh corrections trying to control all that power and aggression. I could stop those dogs in their tracks with just a spoken, ( not shouted) command. Their genetics allowed those dogs to hear and comply. 
Nope, that is not the only bloodline that produced that but there are not many, and I think maybe there never really were. I am simply saying, you could see the German Shepherd when that dog worked in SchH and that is what SchH was designed to test. Raising prey drive and then saying you can see that ability in the dog is a belief based in ignorance. The SchH exercises were designed to show what I just talked about. How well the dog controls the helper using his aggression and how quickly he can respond to what the handler asks while in that state of mind. How well he deals with cumulative stress as well and that includes, ( as GSD ELSA is saying), the fact that there are three phases, two that can be mentally exhausting before protection ever begins. . You have one prey bite in SchH, the escape. The rest of the exercises are defense exercises with what should be a very intimidating "bad guy". Usually, when we see the dogs refuse to out, it is during one of the last exercises, usually after the courage test or the re-attack. Why? IMO, it is a result of the stress over and over that lead up to that and the dogs inability to deal with it. Only the most confident dogs can endure that and still be able to comply and when I say that, I mean comply because their genetics allow them to, not because someone has raised them with an e-collar on. The training has evolved to allow the dogs to view protection as not really protection. We used to ask the dogs to focus solely on the helper. When the sleeve was slipped, the dog was expected to shift focus back to the "agitator" . It is MUCH more difficult for a dog to work in protection when you have trained him that way. That is maybe what people are not understanding or forgetting. If you consider also that SchH used to employ a reed stick, you would have to add in another form of stress where the dog was feeling a level of discomfort unlike what they experience today. Back then, it was much more clear which dogs could really stand the heat and be able to continue to "think", Nowadays , it is not so clear at all because the training has advanced and maybe the judges are not as experienced as they should be.
When I train dogs the helper, I can see how well a dog will deal with repeated threats. Usually, the average dogs will fight back once or twice but when the pressure happens yet again, they start to avoid by trying to pull out of the front, or, they will get hectic, shift the grip and when commanded to out, either refuse or get frantic and start to thrash the sleeve. You can see that thrashing behavior in the NASS videos. That, to me, is an indicator of extreme insecurity and they were doing that in response to VERY LITTLE pressure or threat. As Cecila so astutely mentioned after watching those videos, good obedience requires the proper genetics. Most look at those videos and think the dog is not trained but it goes deeper than that. The great dogs have the genetics that allow them to withstand that stress and to remain clear and compliant. Sometimes, I use the 911 operator analogy. Where a person has the ability to stay calm and in command in spite of the emergency and what is many times someone screaming at them on the other end of the phone. That is what a GSD should have, the genetics to deal with the "emergency" and remain calm, in control and be able to hear and comply with the handler, not because of the training but because of their genetics.
As for harping on protection. Schutzhund translates to "Protection Dog". Someone thought that aspect of the test was important enough to name the whole enchilada" Protection ". There is NO BETTER TEST of the dog than protection. People who do not do helper work, and the many who do it but lack what it takes, will never see what I am talking about but that doesn't make it any less the case. It is a big part of who a GSD is supposed to be, a protective breed designed for many tasks but still possessing aggression that simply must be tested correctly to determine breed suitability. SchH is only doing that a portion of the time nowadays and many dogs who should be penalized for a number of reasons, are not..


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> OK, so I'll bite on what Ann would like to know: what Schutzhund means to me and why it is such an important criteria. Everyone differs, so I am giving you an opinion that strictly comes from "my heart" so to speak. I grew up competing in various horse sports...literally everything from hunters to western pleasure to riding "trotting" horses. However, my "thing" was always 3-day eventing. I did the other things because I was a good rider and could pretty much catch ride anything under the sun, but "three days, three ways" was IT for me. All other horses and horse sports, in my opinion, are nowhere even close to what 3-day eventing offers. For those that aren't familiar with eventing here's a basic background: it's a horse sport that originally developed as a way to test military horses' obedience, training, endurance, stamina, and bravery. On the first day, the horses do a dressage test in which a pattern is memorized and executed and each horse and rider is judged on how well they perform each movement. The second day is endurance, or cross county. This phase is to test a horses bravery, stamina, speed, and carefulness it it's steps. In the original 3-day (called a "long format"...but there are "short formats" as well), the horses had to do a several-mile long trot, then go immediately into a steeplechase phase (just like steeplechase jumping you see in Britain, but there is only one horse out there at a time), then another long trot. Then after all that, they get a 10 minute break and go into the cross country phase in which the horses gallops over several miles jumping over logs, ditches, stone walls, hay bales, water jumps...and sometimes even cars! On the third day there is show jumping, which is the standard jumping you see in an arena. This is done to show how well the horse recovers from the endurance day and that it can "keep it together" so to speak and complete an arena jumping course. That's eventing. And in my eyes, it's the best horse sport out there and all others are second fiddle. I've done them all. You can spend days arguing with me about it...it's just the way it is. No other sport does anything even close to testing the "whole horse" as 3-day eventing does.
> 
> Does this sound familiar? 3 phases? Military test? Yes, so we can see why I think Schutzhund is PERFECT! I think SchH shows a dog's courage, stamina, ability to adjust and mold itself into a particular task, intelligence, desire to work, bond with the handler, etc. To ME...tracking shows a dogs scenting ability, as well as their prolonged mental stamina to "stay on target" and follow a difficult, lengthy task through to completion. Obedience shows how precise the dog can be, that it can execute commands exactly, maintain focus, and contain it's drive. Protection, in my opinion is the "most important" part of SchH, but I do not think it is the one that should be harped on. Just like I think the endurance phase of a 3-day event is the most important, I think it's the whole picture of the 3 different phases that creates the perfect horse. To me, protection shows the dog has aggression in the correct way: engages the helper, doesn't shy away or back down, etc. BUT at the same time, does so only when appropriate. No cheap shots to the sleeve (or leg...or hand), outing when they are supposed to, pays attention to the handler rather than the helper when it should, etc.
> 
> So how does that all translate into what I like and don't? I like dogs that have a lot of spring in their step when doing obedience (a little "passagy" looking), but that aren't so frantic/wild/crazy that their butts are all over the place. I like a dog that does a down and seems sort of relaxed and not twitching to go (I like twitching, but in stuff like getting ready to start agility). In protection...I can't STAND when I see a dog get "cheap shots" on the bark and hold. I like when they are jumping, but not when they are sort of self-satisfying why hitting the sleeve constantly. I don't like it when I see the dog sort of think about the out when given the command. I like to see full speed ahead when they are getting ready to jump for the sleeve. Some dogs slow down a loooot. And I like when the dog will completely focus back on the handler when no "threat" is being shown.
> 
> Anyhow...that's just a few of my feelings with SchH and why I think it's so important. I'm definitely a newby with the sport, but I feel strongly about it. And it's not surprising considering I want a horse that has the bravery to forge through any and all obstacles. I expect the same from my dog. Like lies, i'm not sure I can describe specifically every little thing I see in a dog that I like or don't like. But probably in real time or asked to talk about specific videos, yes.



BRAVO!!!! Could not have said it any better. It is what it is. 

The History behind Schutzhund goes directly to the police and military and what they needed back then.




> As for harping on protection. Schutzhund translates to "Protection Dog". Someone thought that aspect of the test was important enough to name the whole enchilada" Protection ". There is NO BETTER TEST of the dog than protection. People who do not do helper work, and the many who do it but lack what it takes, will never see what I am talking about but that doesn't make it any less the case. It is a big part of who a GSD is supposed to be, a protective breed designed for many tasks but still possessing aggression that simply must be tested correctly to determine breed suitability. SchH is only doing that a portion of the time nowadays and many dogs who should be penalized for a number of reasons, are not..


Honestly, I do believe that there are other ways to test a German Shepherd. Why would you need to test a German Shepherd in Schutzhund if you need a Herding dog?

With everything I've learned about Herding and read from Ulf Kintzel, I think that Herding is far more stressful than the Schutzhund Test will ever be and that most of the Schutzhund Dogs don't even have the strong nerve for Herding (which doesn't mean that they can't do it but it's suppossed to be harder to train them).


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## gagsd

_"Honestly, I do believe that there are other ways to test a German Shepherd. Why would you need to test a German Shepherd in Schutzhund if you need a Herding dog?"_

Just an aside, from the work I have done in herding/stockdog and schutzhund, the skill sets a dog needs are very similar indeed!! 

Bravery, calmness, ability to listen/obey to the handler, AND the ability to work independently--- my dogs that work stock well, are also the ones that do best at schutzhund training. 
Quiet, until needed (if that makes sense?).


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## Mrs.K

gagsd said:


> _"Honestly, I do believe that there are other ways to test a German Shepherd. Why would you need to test a German Shepherd in Schutzhund if you need a Herding dog?"_
> 
> Just an aside, from the work I have done in herding/stockdog and schutzhund, the skill sets a dog needs are very similar indeed!!
> 
> Bravery, calmness, ability to listen/obey to the handler, AND the ability to work independently--- my dogs that work stock well, are also the ones that do best at schutzhund training.
> Quiet, until needed (if that makes sense?).


It does make sense. The thing is, from what I got from Ulf Kintzels documents that not every Schutzhund dog is cut out to be a herding dog but that, like you said, most herding dogs are actually doing well as Schutzhund dogs and that just because a dog has earned the SchH3 title doesn't mean that he's got the nerves for herding the flock. 

So why is that? That's something that I find interesting. Is it because Schutzhund is now reduced to a Show rather than actual work?


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## gagsd

Maybe it is what Ulf considers a "herding dog?" (maybe only calling them that if they are talented)

I see plenty of dogs that "do" herding that are not talented. It is strictly an obedience exercise for some. The ones that I consider good, seem to be good across the board--- as housepets, as schutzhund prospects, and herding work.

And yes, the dogs that (I consider) are not strong in herding work, can obtain titles. The SAME as schutzhund, agility, etc. You can't go by just the title.

(caveat, I only have hands-on experience with AKC and Australian Shepherd herding)


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## Vandal

Mrs K, read what Doc wrote. Short paragraph but sums it up nicely. Herding is, (for the lack of a better way to put it), more natural and therefore the way the dog performs cannot be manipulated by the training methods as easily. Sheep are sheep and act like sheep where in SchH, the "bad guy" can be less of one or the dog can be trained to focus more on the sleeve than the threat the helper presents...if he is presenting one that is. If you do not interfere, herding really puts the dog's genetics on display. In SchH, there is much more of that interference than there used to be.

It is about genetics, not training. You see the genetics in herding just like we used to be able to see more of the genetics in SchH before the training "advanced", making it possible to remove the stress and train the behaviors vs simply re-enforcing them. In some ways, the way SchH is conducted now is confusing for the dogs with the right genetics.


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## Whiteshepherds

When I asked this question:
_*How much of the testing is about the dog and how much of it is a direct reflection of the handler? *_

Docs answers are what I was hoping to see, they make the most sense. (shortened below)



Doc said:


> *What I currently see and hear about is that a great deal of the "testing" does not address the dogs genetic obedience - his internal wiring* *- but rather a great deal of today's titles reward a persons ability to train a dog to perform.* *And now you add "professional" handlers that can hide many of the weaknesses of a particular dog and you end up with titled dogs that may or may not be breed worthy*. JMO


So is it wrong to assume that when looking for a dog, whether for breeding or as a pet, that it's also important to learn about the siblings of the sire and dam, their grandparents etc., because that's a better indicator of what genetically runs through a line? 

I see where the titles and testing can have some merit but not as a stand alone assessment of a breeders line. For me Shutzhund testing is a little overrated as is conformation.


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## Vandal

It is ALWAYS important to understand the bloodline. When I started, there was a great deal of interest in that aspect. Certainly the titles played into the consideration of the dog but not like we see now. Now it is so much about titles, some people have lost site of what those titles were meant to put on display.
That has been the point of my "questions" all along. Didn't want to spill the beans before I gave people a chance to answer. Doc's answer hit the nail on the head.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> Mrs K, read what Doc wrote. Short paragraph but sums it up nicely. Herding is, (for the lack of a better way to put it), more natural and therefore the way the dog performs cannot be manipulated by the training methods as easily. Sheep are sheep and act like sheep where in SchH, the "bad guy" can be less of one or the dog can be trained to focus more on the sleeve than the threat the helper presents...if he is presenting one that is. If you do not interfere, herding really puts the dog's genetics on display. In SchH, there is much more of that interference than there used to be.
> 
> It is about genetics, not training. You see the genetics in herding just like we used to be able to see more of the genetics in SchH before the training "advanced", making it possible to remove the stress and train the behaviors vs simply re-enforcing them. In some ways, the way SchH is conducted now is confusing for the dogs with the right genetics.


I agree with you. I absolutely agree with you.

And here is what I don't understand. If herding is more natural and if you can see the genetics why not using breeding stock that belongs to good herding dogs. 

If those dogs are really as strong nerved as Ulf says they are it could solve the problem. Have them dogs working, have them show that they can tend a flock of 200+ sheeps. Have them go through the HGH, not just check their instinct, but have them titled in HGH. 

Go back to the roots. Have a dog do both, HGH and Schutzhund and he should be worthy enough to be bred.


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## Emoore

What does all this mean for someone looking for their first or second or third GSD that's going to mainly be a companion? Is it enough that I researched working-line breeders in my area, found the ones that were breeding hip/elbow certified, titled dogs whose ancestors were also hip/elbow certified and titled, met the dogs, met the breeders, chose one that I trusted, and handed over my money? Do I now need to look for videos of the parents and grandparents working? I'm not well-versed enough in SchH to know what I'm looking for. 

From reading this thread it sounds like someone needs to have worked a couple of dogs in SchH before they think about buying a puppy.


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## Samba

Now where am I going to find 200 sheep?


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## Xeph

> Now where am I going to find 200 sheep?


That's exactly it.

I don't know how many HGH trainers there are in the US, but as far as my knowledge goes, there are only two. The first is Ulf, who is in New York, and the second is Geary Loff, who learned from Ulf, and lives in New Jersey.

That really limits obtaining an HGH in the USA.


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## Vandal

Well...probably because , for me anyway...and carla as well.....lol......you don't find huge flocks of sheep wandering around in Los Angeles or the outlying areas. I would love to see how my dogs did in that venue but i will say, you can work a dog in SchH using some of those old ways and see what kind of dog you have. I am only saying that just saying titles are necessary without really knowing WHY is kind of silly.

As for understanding what you are seeing Emoore. That takes a little work, a very strong interest and finding people who actually understand the DOGS. I have been doing this a while and I only know a handful of people with that deep understanding and they are getting up there in age.


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## Vandal

> If herding is more natural and if you can see the genetics why not using breeding stock that belongs to good herding dogs.


There are bloodlines that decend to herding dogs. The dog Enno I talked about had those lines very close and there are others as well. If you read what I said about them, and then consider what the herding people say, the way the dogs I talked about worked, although different tests, they operated in a similar fashion. Does that make sense?


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## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> I agree with you. I absolutely agree with you.
> 
> And here is what I don't understand. If herding is more natural and if you can see the genetics why not using breeding stock that belongs to good herding dogs.
> 
> If those dogs are really as strong nerved as Ulf says they are it could solve the problem. Have them dogs working, have them show that they can tend a flock of 200+ sheeps. Have them go through the HGH, not just check their instinct, but have them titled in HGH.
> 
> Go back to the roots. Have a dog do both, HGH and Schutzhund and he should be worthy enough to be bred.


I think the problem is that this would cause another genetic bottleneck. How many new HGHs are there each year? How about in the US? I don't know of *anyone* within a 20 hour drive of me that is even training GSDs in this fashion let alone at a high level and breeding them.

Many HGH dogs are WGSL, and they are constantly criticized as being weak. I used to train my dogs alongside a now retired dog that is 12 times HGH, trained by Karl Fuller and worked alongside him (because he is a shepherd, not someone that just trains dogs for sale and breeding), and a BSZS herding Siegerin. She has no SchH title but was trained and did SchH several times with us and was one of the stronger dogs in the club. But, she's a "showline" dog...


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## Vandal

German Shepherd Herding From HGH To Schutzhund


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## GSDElsa

Emoore...what I have been doing is exactly that. Despite that I like to talk alot, I really don't know what I"m doing. Haha!  But I DO know what I like to see in dogs and what I don't. So I've just watched hoards and hoards of videos to see what dogs I like and what ones I don't. Then I'll google videos of mom and dad. Then grandpa and grandma. Etc. And just see where things lead me.

And I don't think that it has to be SchH dogs that you've handled. Obviously OB tells one story (but who watches tracking??  ) and I think that you can tell a lot from a protection video even if you don't have 20 years of experience in it. 



Emoore said:


> What does all this mean for someone looking for their first or second or third GSD that's going to mainly be a companion? Is it enough that I researched working-line breeders in my area, found the ones that were breeding hip/elbow certified, titled dogs whose ancestors were also hip/elbow certified and titled, met the dogs, met the breeders, chose one that I trusted, and handed over my money? Do I now need to look for videos of the parents and grandparents working? I'm not well-versed enough in SchH to know what I'm looking for.
> 
> From reading this thread it sounds like someone needs to have worked a couple of dogs in SchH before they think about buying a puppy.


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## Doc

Manfred Heyne could pick a champion herding dog from a litter at 5 or 6 weeks. It was based entirely on the genetic make-up of the puppy - in other words - the natural instinct the puppy displayed. How it circled the sheep, how it mouthed the sheep, how hard it bit the legs, etc. And he did it year after year after year. His champions were not "trained" to herd sheep, they herded because that was their natural instinct - they didn't have to be taught how to do it.

I can't speak for anyone except me, but some of us "old" folks have seen German shepherds that display a wide range of characteristics that are not trained but rather are what makes up a German shepherd - a jack of all trades but a master at none. Back in the 60's it was much easier to buy a German shepherd if all you wanted was a companion *if* you understood what a German shepherd was bred for. Anne and few others have spent a life-time studying and producing German shepherds that are utility dogs - or jack of all trades. 

I'm not putting Anne on a pedestal, but she is in here and willing to share her experience and knowledge. Anne's breeding stock, and German shepherds she produces are what German shepherds should be. There are others in here that would fit into that category as well. I say this to emphasis that even those that want a companion that is a German shepherd should do your homework, ask tons of questions, and know exactly what you are looking for and be sure to tell the breeder. I am sure the dogs that are created from some of the older bloodlines can be companions - but remember they are predominately working dogs. Give them something to do and let them do it. Train them in some area that you are interested in and fits the genetic make-up of your dog. And lastly, show your dog some affection.

It is harder than it once was to find the German shepherd that once dominated this breed - but it's not impossible. It may be impossible one day, because folks like Manfred Heyne have gone to meet their companions at the bridge.


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## GranvilleGSD

cliffson1 said:


> The definition that Doc gave and what Anne was seeking goes to the heart of what the test was designed to do from inception. Sch was a breeding tool, it was not a sport. People wanted to see the dog operate very effectievely in three primary areas that the dog was created to excel in its utility work. Sch became a sport. There is a distinct difference between sport and tool. We now focus on the training as opposed to the dog.


This is a great comment. If Sch were still the breeding test that it was years ago, would we be seeing Golden Retrievers achieve Sch3? How about the other breeds that have gotten at least a Sch1? Do a quick search and you'll find Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, Border Collies, Australian Shepherds, Australian Cattle Dogs, Corgis, Scotties, Jack Russel Terriers, Standard Poodles, in addition to Rottweilers, Doberman Pinchers, American Bulldogs and so many more! I even saw that a Greyhound received a BH.


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## Mrs.K

Doc said:


> Manfred Heyne could pick a champion herding dog from a litter at 5 or 6 weeks. It was based entirely on the genetic make-up of the puppy - in other words - the natural instinct the puppy displayed. How it circled the sheep, how it mouthed the sheep, how hard it bit the legs, etc. And he did it year after year after year. His champions were not "trained" to herd sheep, they herded because that was their natural instinct - they didn't have to be taught how to do it.
> 
> *My dad used to be the same way. He can look at a dog and just knows because of what he sees.
> *
> I can't speak for anyone except me, but some of us "old" folks have seen German shepherds that display a wide range of characteristics that are not trained but rather are what makes up a German shepherd - a jack of all trades but a master at none. Back in the 60's it was much easier to buy a German shepherd if all you wanted was a companion *if* you understood what a German shepherd was bred for. Anne and few others have spent a life-time studying and producing German shepherds that are utility dogs - or jack of all trades.
> 
> *I know what you mean. I've seen it. The dog that has never been trained to herd but knew exactly what to do when he had to do it and going out in the trial and scoring a hundred in Schutzhund.
> 
> We used to have sheep. Not for herding but because we kids raised them and sold the milk. Sheep, Goats, Ducks, Chicken you name it...
> One day the sheeps broke out. It was before school and I was out there by myself. No one else was there. I didn't know what else to do and got my German Shepherd that I had at that point. She took them in. I couldn't explain and I still can't explain how, but she brought them in, naturally without any herding training at all. So I, personally, am familiar with these kind of dogs. that was, however, 15 years ago.
> *
> I'm not putting Anne on a pedestal, but she is in here and willing to share her experience and knowledge. Anne's breeding stock, and German shepherds she produces are what German shepherds should be. There are others in here that would fit into that category as well. I say this to emphasis that even those that want a companion that is a German shepherd should do your homework, ask tons of questions, and know exactly what you are looking for and be sure to tell the breeder. I am sure the dogs that are created from some of the older bloodlines can be companions - but remember they are predominately working dogs. Give them something to do and let them do it. Train them in some area that you are interested in and fits the genetic make-up of your dog. And lastly, show your dog some affection.
> 
> It is harder than it once was to find the German shepherd that once dominated this breed - but it's not impossible. It may be impossible one day, because folks like Manfred Heyne have gone to meet their companions at the bridge.
> *
> Or quit because of all the corruption and because they've been kicked once too many times. There are still people out there that KNOW the dogs but most of them are not breeding or participating anymore because of all the corruption out there.
> *



@Vandal: Thank you for the link. It actually supports the conclusion I come to. One more reason to go away from Schutzhund and go back to the roots. Once people understand that real work and instinct is worth more than sport and competition than we are actually getting somewhere but since there is way too much money involved I doubt it'll happen any time soon. 

I don't know if I, personally, will do great at herding but I am pretty **** sure that the dogs will enjoy it. My old helper used to have sheeps. He had them on the premises while we did Schutzhund training and the dogs were more interested in the sheeps than in the sleeve so I do believe that it's still in their genes and that they probably enjoy herding much more than they enjoy going after the sleeve.


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## Wildtim

I can't remember, is it 2 or 3 hundred sheep you need for a HGH trial?

Either way, before everyone gets all up in arms and wants to do an HGH lets look at what that means. To whit at least 200 sheep.

According to the data I can find a yearling ewe sells for at least $100. That times 200 means you "flock" a minimum of a $20,000 dollar investment in just livestock probably a lot more as that would just be your "working flock" and you would maintain more sheep just to have spares. Now you have to keep them. The law in most areas allows only 5 ewes per acre so we need forty acres of land for our flock, just to meet the legalities let alone feed them. You begin to see why shepherding has never been the mainsteam of German Shepherd testing despite the name. 

Since its inception Schutzhund was supposed to be a test that identified all the same traits just as Cliff stated above. It's a crying shame it is no longer judged on that basis.


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## Andaka

I have done some AKC "A course" arena style herding. I used to train with nancy Obermark, and hopefully will again. Every dog (all ASL) showed instict, but some showed more drive than others. 

I took a puppy that I had bought from another breeder to training one day. I had had this bitch for 3 days, and she didn't have a name before I got her. I put her in the round pen with some sheep. The sheep were following me and she was following the sheep. Part way thru the lesson she had to take a dump. I walked over to the fence to get the pooper scooper. When I turned around there were the sheep with the dog behind them. I fgured the sheep had followed me so I walked thru the sheep -- scattering them. After I picked up the poop I turned around and there were the sheep and the dog behind them. I was starting to think i was on to something so I once again scattered the sheep by walking thru them. Turned around this time and, you guessed it, sheep and dog. That was with no training.

When you do herding you are not really training the dog to herd, you are training the dog to know how to help you move the sheep, put them in a pen, etc.


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## cliffson1

Just got back from Herding training for Dura....she is a DDR dog with a strong HGH background in the 6th generation on back. Many of the East females were used in herding and there are still strong genetic traits to be awakened in the east dogs. That's why I got her in the first place....to bring some strong genetic traits to my stock.


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## onyx'girl

What is the difference between herding and tending? There is a trainer near me that teaches the tending technique.


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## Xeph

Tending IS herding. There are many types of herding, tending being one of them. Most people are much more familiar with driving and fetching (what Border Collies do). In tending, the dog acts as a living fence, and keeps the flock within a certain area of the "Graze".

The graze is rotated to promote even healthy growth of the grass, preventing sheep from basically destroying the acreage. While tending dogs do do a bit of driving, their primary job is to keep the flock within one area, and not allow them to cross over into a graze that has new and recuperating growth (new/recuperating growth = more yummy for the sheep). If a sheep tries to cross over into a different graze area, the dog goes "Uh, no, I don't think so" and maintains the boundary.


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## onyx'girl

Thanks Xeph. 
The description made me think there was something different in tending as compared to herding:
_Facililty/Livestock: Large unfenced pastures, with grazes marked. Flock of cross-bred hair sheep.
Tending lessons, tending evaluations and tending clinics.
Tending, Large Flock or AKC C Course work is the type of herding historically done by European herding breeds, German Shepherds, Briards and Belgians and differs from the work done by BCs. I have trained & trialed an AKC Herding Champion GSD from A Course & am currently training & trialing an HCh pointed GSD from C Course
_


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## Xeph

The difference between tending and other styles of herding is just that. The style 

Tending also requires a different type of "eye" than drive and fetch work does. Border Collies for example, are known to have a very "hard" eye. They work up close and personal with the sheep, where as the tending breeds lean towards a "loose" eye. They do not need to control the sheep in the same manner, and thus have a different presence.

When you watch a Border Collie work, you notice that their overall herding style is low and slinky. Highly predatory. The hard eye is much more predatory as well, and this allows for further control of the sheep. The tending dog uses a more upright posture and his overall presence to keep sheep where they need to be. If a sheep challenges the dog, the dog CAN have a hard eye, but it is not so much about the eye as it is the placement and courage of the dog to keep a tough flock member in the graze.

The picture of a tending dog, who moves constantly, is, in my little experience, a much more relaxed dog. That isn't to say the dog is lazy (of course he can't be), but when I watch a Border Collie, I feel highly tense simply because that is what the body's posture reads to me (even though the BC itself may be totally relaxed).

I hope that made some bit of sense, and that others more familiar with herding can chime in.


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## Samba

My girl with this pedigree has very strong herding instincts. When they are genetically talented, it is a lot of fun to work the sheeps.

Carmspack Samba - German shepherd dog

I have a hard time finding tending going on nearby. There is plenty of BC style herding locally, but a GSD trying to do that on very light sheep has its challenges. I do wish there was more opportunity to evaluate and work the dogs in herding. I think, overall, the loss of our agrarian based lifestyles poses a challenge to the preservation of many working breeds.


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## Xeph

I agree, Samba. It stinks. I like Schutzhund very much, but with my physical limitations it's a struggle, and it would be nice to have another way to test my dog. But when people are all about "Border Collie work" it's really hard to test a Shepherd.


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## cliffson1

Samba,
The breeder that you got your dog from is one of my mentors, her depth of knowledge of the breed is staggering. Her stock is based in DDR dogs also, which is small wonder your dog has strong herding tendencies. Sometimes, we would spend hours talking pedigrees and what is being produced by the great dogs both now and past. She does not title her dogs, but she probably has more dogs in police, SAR, RCMP, seeing-eye and service organizations, than anybody I know. She is what I call a "very" responsible breeder, based on her body of work and not titles and certs.
What's your thoughts?


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## Smithie86

selzer said:


> If you want a pet, do not insist on buying a puppy from people who compete in schutzhund. May it work out just fine, sure. Are you likely to be seriously overmatched, well, it is certainly possible if the breeder does not get good infromation from you about your knowledge, experience, energy levels, etc.


Disagree with this. *Any breeder* needs to ensure that they get the correct information to be able to make a determination. And the buyer needs to be thorough, upfront and honest about what they are looking for.

In our N litter, none of the pups went to pet homes. Not from that combo and we were upfront with people about it. In our L litter, some went to active homes, but we ensured a correct fit. Took time.

We turn down people, if the fit is not correct.

Gabor competes. But, he also trains from a puppy/young dog And we keep dogs back. We know what we breed. So do other working breeders on this board that compete. 

And there a versions of competing. There are people that claim to compete, people that compete 1x, and people that love the pain and keep competing:help:


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## selzer

Smithie86 said:


> Disagree with this. *Any breeder* needs to ensure that they get the correct information to be able to make a determination. And the buyer needs to be thorough, upfront and honest about what they are looking for.
> 
> In our N litter, none of the pups went to pet homes. Not from that combo and we were upfront with people about it. In our L litter, some went to active homes, but we ensured a correct fit. Took time.
> 
> We turn down people, if the fit is not correct.
> 
> Gabor competes. But, he also trains from a puppy/young dog And we keep dogs back. We know what we breed. So do other working breeders on this board that compete.
> 
> And there a versions of competing. There are people that claim to compete, people that compete 1x, and people that love the pain and keep competing:help:


 
Actually, I think, that was EXACTLY what I was saying. 

You can get into trouble if you are not upfront with your experience, etc.
And there are differences in people who compete as a opposed to people who title. Perhaps the dogs out of people who compete are the more stable and the better dogs for both pet homes and competitive homes. And maybe a pet home would be seriously overmatched if they do not provide good information. 

Even with GSLs people can be seriously overmatched when they do not give good information. 

I have turned people down. I have also gone against my gut feeling. I think the breeder can only really work with what they are given. Some buyers are so off base that you CAN see through them. Others know enough to be dangerous.


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## Wilhoit

The articles in the link Anne posted on the previous page caused some more "light bulb" moments for this newby. I was particularly struck by this. "[O]ur ability to help produce or conserve meaningful genetic combinations is 100% dependent on our skill and ability to clearly identify and define exactly what the genetic attributes are that we need in our dogs in order for them to perform the desired tasks we selectively breed them for. We need to be specific and we need to prioritize the value of each specific genetic attribute needed if we expect to have any hope of breeding what we need in our working dogs. If we aren't clear about what we want and need, how can we produce it?"

Maybe if proponents of the different lines formulated and discussed their lists, they might find they had more in common than they think. I hope so! If anyone wants to give us their prioritized list, I'd be really interested to read it. The prioritizations on my little, tentative list have already been rearranged several times. I dropped that special willingness to please and wanting to work with you obedience from first place after reading Cliff's arguments for the necessity of putting nerve in first place. This article prioritizes "genetic herding ability" over "'trainability'". I'm back to the drawing board with my list, again, pondering on these things. So, what do you all think about your prioritizations? If you'd like to discuss this, I'd love to listen and learn. Examples are always a help.


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## Samba

I don't know Samba's breeder personally as I am not anywhere near Canada. I do know of several of the dogs in service work and some competition trackers with success with them. She does seem to have many years of study of the dogs behind her and many generations of breedings. She also started with ASL dogs and made the switch when things started down a certain path with those lines. The Samba dog has super natural tracking ability. She is devoted and turns on a dime to quiet voice command by genetics. She is not one to make friendships cavalierly, but once you are "in", you can count on her to look after you. A German Shepherd by birth, for sure. 

I wonder how many breeders have preserved the traits that I like in the Samba dog? Many of the "old lines" get farther and farther back. 

I know Anne and one of her friends also have some dogs with "old" lines that they knew and valued still relatively up close. But even with this advantage, time marches on and the pedigrees fill with more recent animals. 

Hopefully breeders with this history with the breed and success at breeding the GSD traits that were once more common will be able to make their way. 

I personally have had a good results from breeders who did not title all their dogs. But, who those breeders are and their immersion in the breed for decades was huge. I would never choose a dog from titled parents over a breeding by breeders whose knowledge and success tell the tale.


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## Wilhoit

Samba, What you described is much of what I have in mind when I think of a really outstanding GSD:

The Samba dog has super natural tracking ability. She is devoted and turns on a dime to quiet voice command by genetics. She is not one to make friendships cavalierly, but once you are "in", you can count on her to look after you. A German Shepherd by birth, for sure.

Thank you! Also great insight on the thread's topic about breeders and titles.


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## Vandal

The biggest problem with the more current lines has been the way they have been combined. There are good dogs still out there and if the lines were combined differently, ( some breeders are), we might see more dogs like we used to. It needs to happen sooner than later though because things are getting a bit too far out of balance. We now have many lines that consist mostly of "drive dogs" more than lines with those really solid nerves, genetic obedience, etc. we saw more often years ago. People are finding out they need those more solid dogs to breed to now but trying to find them is getting rather difficult. 
The reason things have gone this way is the traits that people value and use in today's training methods. Drive is a more valued quality in the dog than the "toughness" those old lines possessed. People have kind of replaced the later with the former and will call that too high level of drive, resilience, when that is not what it is at all. 
Samba went back to more than one line well known for social aggression and that is what Carla is describing concerning the protectiveness, loyalty and acceptance of strangers. That is also a trait that is less available than it used to be.


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## Catu

Maybe we should combine with these line. This is aggression!!


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## Wilhoit

Anne, thank you for your last post--so informative! If you have time, maybe you might mention which lines are have "those really solid nerves, genetic obedience, etc. "

I don't know if it is courteous to discuss a living dog here, but if Samba doesn't mind, could we learn which lines in Samba dog go back to those that are "well known for social aggression." I printed out Samba dog's 6 generation pedigree, so I could follow any comments.

If I understood correctly, social agression seems to appear as a part of a constellation of traits, which include the "devotion" and "loyalty" you both mentioned. My Wilhoit was devoted to my wellbeing, not just to protecting me from threatening strangers. I was rarely ill or hurt, but when I was, he was totally concerned with trying to help me. I valued this trait even more than his obedience (wanting to do things with you, not just for you). This is why I am interested in the implications of social agression and where it can be found.

I wonder, too, what you might mean by combing lines differently than they often are now. Would you mean breeding to offset strengths and weaknesses, rather than just breeding to intensify one or several traits, or something else?

When I looked at Samba dog's pedigree, I noticed that "[nl]o common ancestry was found in 5 generations". This looked like a really good thing to me, because I've started to look into the coefficient of inbreeding and how it can be used. Isn't it harder to find an appropriate dog to breed to when you have to look far and wide, rather than just to your dog's relatives that might be well known to you? How would this work? Sorry for all the questions!


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## Wilhoit

Jax's Mom said:


> What types of titles and how many would you consider "adequate" for breeding? I know the obvious answer would be "as many as possible" or SchH3, but at what point would a breeder decide their dog would make for good breeding stock?
> I'm not asking because I want to breed my dog but what would you consider an absolute must before you'd put your kennel's name on a future puppy?


I think I would like to see the COI (coefficient of inbreeding) of each of the breeder's dogs and of a planned litter in which I might be interested. I've just started to learn some of the implications of inbreeding, and they are sobering. The health problems are heartbreaking and so are the temperament problems that I think everyone interested every GSD line would want to avoid.


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