# Decision to neuter early



## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

We all know vets generally recommend 6 months. I know a bit of the growth concerns for early neuter but I think I may have other concerns that are more important.

First, I do not have a fenced yard. I have serious concerns about Spirit's safety if he catches wind of a dog in heat ... risky. I prefer to neuter early just on this concern alone.

I have a female golden retriever. I do not want any humping behavior going on, so far so good...might waiting until maturity increasae the likelihood of Spirit displaying this unwanted behavior?

I'm not going to show him. His breeder would like me to, and he seems worthy, but that's not my lifestyle. He'll be actively engaged in other activities though.

I haven't a clue how to manage an intact mature male dog. Never had one. Do I even want to go there? There's a female dog next door, have no idea what their plans are for spaying, I would hope they get it done soon. But seems to me the best course of action is to take control of the situation myself.

Your thoughts?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Personally, I think you should build a fence! Whether you neuter or not will not make an unfenced area safer.

Humping behavior can occur whether the dog is neutered or not; even females hump each other. However, neutering can lessen it.

How old is your pup now? Most vets will neuter beginning around 5 months.

This board is largely anti-neuter, but personally, I would rather see a pet dog neutered earlier as opposed to later. It's certainly not a magic bullet to prevent misbehavior, but young dogs tend to bounce back from the surgery more quickly.

The mainstream thought has always been to neuter around 6 months of age, but there are some recent studies that suggest it is better for their growth to neuter later, after sexual maturity, around 1-2 years of age. 

Some people have quite forceful opinions on the subject and may try to bully you into doing it their way. My advice is, take a look at the studies, talk to your vet, and make your own decision based on what you feel is best for YOUR dog.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Responsible dog ownership means doing your research and doing what is necessary to ensure you keep your dog from breeding. This can be done without neutering early, I have seen it successful time and time again. 

I would not neuter or spay before at least 2 years old. I am a strong believer in allowing dogs to grow up before we cut out a part of their body that belongs there. As long as you keep him from roaming and breeding, you shouldn't have to neuter him. I have an intact 13 month old male, when he is outside my eyes are on him at all times. I would never leave him with an intact female, I wouldn't even let them play together off leash. 

Ultimately, it's your decision and you should base your decision on how you are able to manage your dog.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

I can't build a fence. I have an invisible fence but don't use it, don't want to. I am all about 100% supervision outside ... if the dogs are outside, I'm right there. I am over the top vigilant. 

Are you saying it's possible to manage an intact dog without a physical fence? I'm open to the possibility. If anyone could do it, I could. I just want to be reasonable and I have zero tolerance for reproduction mistakes. 

Freestep, just to assure you a little and I do understand your concern...when I first moved to Pennsylvania, the first thing I noticed was there were so few fences! I thought how on earth do people take care of their dogs  Well I know, people tie them, a lot. That's not an option for me but I had to learn how to manage my golden retriever without a fenced yard. Had to. I live at the end of a dead end road, traffic is not a concern. We've done a lot of boundary training and I will do the same with Spirit, we're working on it right now and Daisy is an excellent role model for him. I am always with my dogs outside, I don't lose sight of them for a moment. If I'm doing anything that requires my full attention, the dogs are inside. That's just the way it is. It manageable, but it's more work that most pet owners are accustomed to, for sure.

Edited to add...Spirit is 4 months now, just a few days shy.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

I read some of the concerns about early neuter, but we still went ahead with it. Jake is 6 months and just get neutered yesterday. 

There is a lot of information out on the internet that can be overwhelming. I believe people need to make their own decisions and do what they feel is best for their dog(s).


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> I would not neuter or spay before at least 2 years old. I am a strong believer in allowing dogs to grow up before we cut out a part of their body that belongs there. *As long as you keep him from roaming and breeding, you shouldn't have to neuter him. *
> 
> Ultimately, it's your decision and you should base your decision on how you are able to manage your dog.


Well said. 
I agree. I won't neuter or spay unless there is a medical reason to do so. I would wait as long as I can. You can certainly contain a dog within a fence. At one time, I had an intact male in an apartment with NO yard!


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I've had intact males that have lived to be 14 years old. You just have to keep an eye on them and train them and it sounds like you already do that.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I work in rescue and would like just about everyone to neuter as early as possible as the vast majority of people are not responsible enough to have an intact sexually mature dog. We spay and neuter pups early all the time and have had no issues with it. If that's what you want to do, go for it. I'm the last person that would try and talk you out of it.

You will hear a lot of fearmongering about it on this board, but, again, it's all talk and no actual experience.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

After reading pros and cons on everything I could find, and the difference in how younger dogs handle being neutered versus older dogs.
I had Frank neutered when he was 8 months old. He is now 2 years old and I've not found anything lately that would make me change my mind on my decision to do that. 

Read up on everything then make the best decision that fits your life.


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## iloveshepherds (Jul 10, 2012)

Navajo is 8 months...I dont plan on neutering.
if it aint broke, dont fix it.  
but with him...we are always training, I have a fenced yard, but I still supervise when he is out....I always will. 
If anything changed with is behavior for the "worse" then I would...after he is 2 though. (I dont want anything to stunt his growth, or cause more harm then good)


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I think there comes a moment in every dog owner's life that the dog... especially as they hit puberty... can't hear you.  Bailey never knew a leash (unless in a public place that required it,) until around 8 months. (My yard wasn't fenced yet.)

Then one day he smelled something or heard something down in the woods and bye-bye. Down in the woods he went. My recall was completely ignored. From that day forward, he was on a long tieout. Or even two tieouts together.

Tieouts are not terrible. You just have to watch out for the clothesline thing.  (ouch!)

Now, do I think he would've ignored that recall that day if he had been neutered? Yes, I do. I don't believe it would've made any difference whatsoever. He was entering puberty, life is interesting, the woods are super interesting. (He and I had traipsed around back there a fair amount, so he likes them a lot.)

I've asked many questions on this board about neutering and received many opinions. At the end of the day, all you can do is your own research and come to your own conclusion. Most importantly, really dig into it and don't just take things as truth without verifying. 

I've been told things like, "Your dog will become aggressive if you don't neuter" and "Your dog will mellow out if you neuter" and "Your dog will be much easier to manage after you neuter."

Well, I don't like such blanket statements because no one truly knows what effect it may or may not have on any individual dog. I don't find my dog particularly difficult to manage, anyway. A little more mellow might be nice,  but I'm not cutting his nads in the hopes it *might* calm him down. Exercise does that just fine.  I have come to believe speutering shouldn't be done with the hopes of eradicating something that is likely a training issue. Some behaviors could be over the top, and perhaps could be lessened by removing hormones, and those are the ones I've watched for as I've left him intact.

I do think it is possible that my intact boy's occasional snarkiness/bossyness towards his brother could very well be because he is intact. OTOH, his littermate brother, who has been neutered for four months, pesters and pesters... Ie, they both have their issues and one is intact, the other not.

It isn't a magic behavior pill. 

So, to address one of your original questions -- is it possible to manage an intact dog without a fence? Most definitely. I would say, though, that you must have a containment method. Fence being best, tieout, invisible -- something in place.... but please don't think the answer to recall and containment is neutering. It definitely isn't.

Good luck with your decision; just do your due diligence! 

P.S. FWIW, from when I used to go to the dog park, the neutered males were the worst humping offenders. My intact dog has humped once or twice, as has his neutered brother. This did NOT go over well... they knew it was not acceptable and have never repeated any humping with each other or any of my other dogs. (ie, training issue)


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Basically, it just comes down to management. Are you willing to manage his behavior, if he displays something inappropriate (i.e. humping). Training is a great way to manage behavior. Crate training is also helpful. 

There are several studies on early speuter, and several on leaving intact. Make a list of the pros and cons if you need to. And remember, you dont have to make this decision today. You can neuter at any time, early or late. If, in several months from now he is still intact, and you dont feel comfortable with waiting any longer, you can just get it done.
I have seen in my own breedings, how better developed they become if left intact past physical maturity. So I have my own evidence, and reasons.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Kopper tried to hump once when he was 5 months old. I corrected the behavior and that was that. He lifted his leg once in the house when he was 7 or 8 months old. I corrected the behavior and that was that. 

We go off-leash hiking and he's allowed off-leash in our un-fenced front yard (under close supervision of course). He ignored my recall once when he was 9 or 10 months. 

That said, I do think his reactivity to other males may be at least partially a result of being intact. Since we don't hang out with many other dogs; however, it's not that big of a deal to me. He doesn't react to other males in class or when he's supposed to be working, he just doesn't want them coming up to him.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Do it when you are comfortable.

I will say that my neutered dog was neutered early (like 3 months) and he still tries to hump almost every dog he meets. My 4 year old intact male has never tried to hump anything.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Females hump, too. 
Neutering is a choice only you can make. People are going to agree or disagree, but at the end of the day, it is your dog and your decision.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Reading everyone's replies with great interest, thank you.

This is my first male dog ... I'm kinda scared of that LOL I know my girl golden retriever like the back of my hand, we're like an old married couple now. I don't have a clue what it's like to have a male dog  

Chelle, I don't think tie outs are necessarily bad, but they are used around here too much. I see dogs tied out all day, every day, pass them in walks and I feel so bad. Did any of you catch the story of Dogs Deserve Better, the lady that stole the dying dog because he was tied out and unable to reach food or water? Tammy Grimes. That was just a mile or two from here. 

I wouldn't neuter my dog just to contain him, but I would consider it mightily if I thought that he might bolt and go God knows where ... I'm afraid of that. I don't know what male dogs are capable of, huge learning curve for me with this.

We will be very involved in class activities, I will want to minimize any hormone-related behaviors towards other dogs, male or female. 

Just got good news from the neighbors -- their Bunny FooFoo (yes, that is her name!), is getting spayed today. YAY. Huge relief. 

Just don't know the road I'm taking here, it's a brand new world. I'll just take it one day at a time and see where I end up. No rush decision, no decision without thought and research, no decision without reason...I do have time.


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## apenn0006 (Jun 22, 2012)

chelle said:


> Well, I don't like such blanket statements because no one truly knows what effect it may or may not have on any individual dog. I don't find my dog particularly difficult to manage, anyway. A little more mellow might be nice,  but I'm not cutting his nads in the hopes it *might* calm him down. Exercise does that just fine.  I have come to believe speutering shouldn't be done with the hopes of eradicating something that is likely a training issue. Some behaviors could be over the top, and perhaps could be lessened by removing hormones, and those are the ones I've watched for as I've left him intact.


Well said!! Growing up this was the way my parents thought. Just neuter the untrained dog if you want to keep him in the yard and not to be aggressive. Well, not surprisingly, neutering did NOTHING for keeping him in the yard or from being aggressive. His behavior stemmed from a lack of training on our part. 

Thank goodness I have had the pleasure of learning otherwise from trainers and experienced pet owners since then


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Jo Ellen said:


> We all know vets generally recommend 6 months. I know a bit of the growth concerns for early neuter but I think I may have other concerns that are more important.
> 
> First, I do not have a fenced yard. I have serious concerns about Spirit's safety if he catches wind of a dog in heat ... risky. I prefer to neuter early just on this concern alone.
> 
> ...


What does your breeder recommend?

It's a lot easer to manage an intact male than a female, so don't be overly worried about that. Dogs will roam and hump and fight neutered or not, it's basically down to training on your part.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Jo Ellen said:


> I haven't a clue how to manage an intact mature male dog. Never had one. Do I even want to go there? There's a female dog next door, have no idea what their plans are for spaying, I would hope they get it done soon. But seems to me the best course of action is to take control of the situation myself.
> 
> Your thoughts?


I think if you planned on doing it anyway, and if you have any doubts about how well you would be able to control an intact dog, you should neuter him now. Decisions like this should be made based on what is right for each situation. What is right in this case might not be the right choice for the next person who asks.

Neuter him now and have some piece of mind. That is the sure fire way to keep him from siring any unwanted litters. Neutering him now or 3 years from now or never will have no impact on humping. The worst humper I ever saw was my spayed female dog. And my neutered Pug. 
Sheilah


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jo Ellen said:


> Reading everyone's replies with great interest, thank you.
> 
> This is my first male dog ... I'm kinda scared of that LOL I know my girl golden retriever like the back of my hand, we're like an old married couple now. *I don't have a clue what it's like to have a male dog*
> 
> ...


BunnyFooFoo???  That's funny. That is great news that she's being spayed. That'd be pretty tough for you and your dog if you keep him intact and she was in heat close by. 

Tieouts are fine if that's the only option, but like you say, not for leaving a dog out by itself to live. I really feel sorry for dogs that have to live their lives like that. I don't mean people that leave them on a tieout for a hour on a nice weather day, etc. I mean the ones that get dumped in a backyard on a tieout. Not cool.

Honestly, he may bolt, neutered or not. Bolting doesn't have to be about a female. It can just as well be about a squirrel... or any critter, etc.

As far as classes, at least ours are very strictly no contact dog to dog. There are no "play" sessions. The closest contact is the friendly greetings/walk by and shake other owners' hand thing. 

I'm not trying to talk you into anything! I know I was concerned about keeping Bailey intact. I had intended to neuter him about 16 weeks. I changed my mind and told myself that if anything came up that I was concerned about my handling of, behavior that was unacceptable, etc... that I'd get it done. I actually had an appt a few weeks ago, but I bailed out on it. 

Yes, you're right, no hurry, you have time, read and research outside of here as well. I found the research fascinating. This is sure a hot topic with some very strong opinions!

Bottom line, though, he'll be at reproductive age soon. Don't depend on recall with a young dog, and that is neutered or not. Honeslty, I think you will have to consider tieout or Invisible fence if physical fencing can't be an option.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you plan on leaving your dog in your yard, unsupervised, I'd neuter him. I can deal with my intact male because I live in an apartment and when we're outside he's on a leash. He's also almost 2 and has a very good recall at this point so when we do go on off leash hikes I'm not worried about him bolting.

I've seen my dog around a female in heat twice, and it wasn't pretty. I just had to leave the park at that point because he was on his choke collar, and mating became more important than breathing. It's pretty difficult to get through to them when they're in that state. At my club, females in heat are absolutely not allowed on the grounds because most of the males are intact.

That said, there are reasons to keep intact and reasons to neuter, it doesn't sound like you need to keep him intact for any reason so I would go ahead and do it.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Spirit will never be in the yard unsupervised, that's just not how you manage dogs without fences 

So do you think I should start training him on the invisible fence now? I have such mixed feelings about that. But it can be done ... not as a fail safe, not at all, but just as a secondary reinforcement. What I like best about the invisible fence is it gives the dog pause for thought and that gives me a few more seconds of response time to divert or intervene. I'll say it again, I've said it a hundred times, the invisible fence is not, in my opinion, a substitute for supervision. It's just an added layer of reinforcement.

The only reason I would keep Spirit intact is so that he (and I) can realize his full physical potential. The only way I would keep him intact is if I can 100% guarantee no unwanted litters. The second is more important to me than the first. Health issues I'm not sure about, will need to research those.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Truly the only health issue that I find as a causation is testicular cancer (but clearly that's not a reason to remove an organ).

You need to train a recall, and train him to want to stay by you, not to be afraid of the invisible fence. I don't think that will give you anytime if he gets a whiff of a female in heat. And no amount of buzzing will stop him in that state. Sadly, unless you're really good, I don't think his recall will be 100% for a while, and in my case, I don't think even a recall will stop him from going after a female in heat. I don't really even let my boy off leash outside unless he's in a fenced in yard. When we go hiking, I don't worry too much about females in heat as most people do keep their bitches at home when they're in heat, but a female in heat can easily be let out into a yard a mile away from you (depending on where you live) and who knows how quickly your dog will take off for her.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

martemchik said:


> Truly the only health issue that I find as a causation is testicular cancer (but clearly that's not a reason to remove an organ)....


Mmmm....? I thought this risk was quite minute, in comparison to increased bone cancer risk?


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

So not being neutered is associated with increased risk of testicular cancer ... that makes sense.

Then there's a risk of bone cancer for dogs that are neutered? And this risk outweighs the risk of testicular cancer?

My female GR was spayed at 6 months. She's fine, 11-1/2 years. She has had 2 knee surgeries but that's due to mild hip dysplasia, not from being spayed, is my bet. Cancer takes most of our dogs at some point, some earlier than later. So my question .... how much more is the risk of bone cancer in neutered males than in the general male population ... and what is the age of onset in neutered males compared to intact?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

chelle said:


> Mmmm....? I thought this risk was quite minute, in comparison to increased bone cancer risk?


I don't think anything has ever proved to be caused by the other. I know the risk is small, but really the only thing I see testicles CAUSING is testicular cancer lol. It's just a completely non-medically trained observation I have made. I don't think any of the "medical reasons" have ever been proven as caused by not neutering, and although there are correlations, correlations are easily made by statistical analyses.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Dogs will roam and hump and fight neutered or not, it's basically down to training on your part.


100% correct.

My pack consists of two intact females (Chinese Cresteds - one being just 8 months old), four intact males (1 GSD, 3 Chinese Cresteds), one spayed bitch and one neutered dog.

Winnie, the spayed bitch, humps Tazer, the neutered Cocker. It's a dominance thing - not a sex thing.

Kaynya, intact Crested bitch (3 litters), also humps Tazer. Again - dominance.

The four intact males get along ... for the most part. When Kaynya comes into season there is posturing and grumblings between the boys but nothing serious.

When Kaynya is in season we rotate her and the intact boys. She gets the second floor and the boys get the basement. They all get some first floor (main living area) time and Kaynya is let out separately from the boys.

Other than some howling, loss of appetite and temporary brain disconnect on the boys part, it's doable.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jo Ellen said:


> So not being neutered is associated with increased risk of testicular cancer ... that makes sense.
> 
> Then there's a risk of bone cancer for dogs that are neutered? And this risk outweighs the risk of testicular cancer?


Pour yourself some coffee:
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Pour yourself some coffee:
> Endogenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk


I am definitely reading this, bookmarked and thanks


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

i adopted my last few dogs from rescues or shelters..and they had to be fixed within a month of adopting them...i never had any problems..my males lived to be 14 and never had any health,temperment,weight,humping or any kind of problems ever.
My female is now 9years and was spayed at 3 months and she has never had any problems
My new guy is 6 months and os set to be fixed the end of the month. maybe its just the rescue volunteer in me
i asked 3 differnt vets their opinions and they were all the same.
i thought about waiting but i believe that it will be easier for him to recover at a young age.
no matter what i think its a personal descion for the owner and the vet to decide


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jo Ellen said:


> So not being neutered is associated with increased risk of testicular cancer ... that makes sense.
> 
> Then there's a risk of bone cancer for dogs that are neutered? And this risk outweighs the risk of testicular cancer?


Most of the studies that I have found done with the bone cancer issue were done on Rotts. Rotts are prone to cancer to begin with, so I'm not sure that they are a good group of dogs to do the studies on. I have always spayed/neutered at about 6 months with no issues later on. I spay/neuter to reduce any cancer issues(especially in girls). Lots of people say don't believe in it, but I've seen numerous dogs(again mostly females over 7-8 yrs old) come into the vet with infections of the uterus, which can be pretty bad. They end up getting fixed, so why wait until problems occur and the healing process is longer. I can understand not fixing something if its not broke, but what do you do when it breaks 8-10 years later?


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Yeah, there is that ... the surgery would be more complicated at an older age, wouldn't it? I don't plan on having an intact male indefinitely, I don't think I'm up to managing that, seriously.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

Freestep said:


> Personally, I think you should build a fence! Whether you neuter or not will not make an unfenced area safer.
> 
> Humping behavior can occur whether the dog is neutered or not; even females hump each other. However, neutering can lessen it.
> 
> ...


Unless you have true numbers Freestep, do not assume that most members are against anti-neuter. Being in the vet field for over 10 years, there is benefit for neutering. I'm not just your "regularJoe" who had owned a male or two. I have seen with many breeds the benefit for neutering. And with the the "studies", please do your research with who the studies are done with. Is it with the American Veterinary Medical Association? If not, I would take the studies with a grain a salt.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jo Ellen said:


> Yeah, there is that ... the surgery would be more complicated at an older age, wouldn't it? I don't plan on having an intact male indefinitely, I don't think I'm up to managing that, seriously.


I don't think the management will be that difficult for you..you seem to be on top of it Its definitely harder with a female...every male from miles around will find your house. Its a very personal decision and it really should be based on whats best for the dog and owner. Every time one thinks that things are done one way, more studies come out to prove different. It can be quite exhausting. I think if there is a 50/50 shot...between younger and older...and the pros and cons are weighed about the difference things that can go wrong later, I would still go with younger IMO. There are again IMO more benefits of spaying/neutering younger...the main one is the recovery time and ease of recovery. I personally would not want my 7-8 year old dog to go under the knife to fix something that could have been prevented. The risks are much higher when they are older.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

There is a lot of hype about spay/neuter. If you can not prevent unwanted pregnancies, then speuter. Based purely on the health of the dog, neutering is an overall negative for male dogs, but more 50/50 for female dogs. Only 1% of female dogs die of pyometra (ovarian infection), while 23 % have pyometra, usually at age 10 or more. Mammary tumors are another concern for female dogs, but can be screened for by attentive owners. I have an intact male and and intact female and a spayed female. I will not be neutering except for health reasons based on the following peer-reviewed research. This is NOT anectdotal stuff, and I have read many of the primary source articles cited here.

The entire paper on spay/neuter risks and benefits can be found here: Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay/Neuter in Dogs

On the positive, nuetering male dogs: 

eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)
There are more negatives to nuetering a male dog including: 


if done before maturity, increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer) by a factor of 3.8; this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
triples the risk of hypothyroidism
increases the risk of geriatric cognitive impairment
triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
For female dogs, the decision is more complicated, primarly due to the risk of pyometra or breast (mammary) cancer:

On the positive, spaying:

if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs 
nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs 
reduces the risk of perianal fistulas 
removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side spaying:

if done before maturity, increases the risk of osteosarcoma by a factor of 3.1; this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis 
increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds 
triples the risk of hypothyroidism 
increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems 
causes urinary "spay incontinence" in 4-20% of female dogs 
increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4 
increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty 
doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors 
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders 
increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

In sum, 
"The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or (perhaps in the case of many male dogs) foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary. The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature."

I hope this helps you make the right decision for YOUR dog. If you don't think you can manage him, at least wait until maturity (2 years or more for a GSD).


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature."
> 
> I hope this helps you make the right decision for YOUR dog. If you don't think you can manage him, at least wait until maturity (2 years or more for a GSD).


The problem with studies is that anyone can do them. I'm not saying the info is not accurate, but I would not base my decision on just the studies. I think like someone else mentioned the only study or reading I would do would be on the American Veterinary Medical Association site. I've worked for several vets and I've been to several...the general recommendation is to spay/neuter. I don't think I have ever talked to a vet that didn't recommend it. And before we get into a conversation about well of course they would recommend it, they are making money...a person can choose to go wherever they want to have the procedure done at a less expensive cost. So the recommendation IMO is based on medical knowledge not monetary gain.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

No, not just anybody can do these studies. The article I've linked to is based on peer-reviewed scientific literature. This means that other veterinarians or scientists with experience in the field reviewed the articles for valid research protocols, and valid statistica; analysis, and made recommendations on whether the articles should be accepted for publication or not. 

This type of review proccess is the gold standard for scientific publications in any field (e.g. biology, genetics, psychology, brain surgery, sports medicine etc.). 

Very few veterinarians conduct research on long-term effects of speutering. All the veterinarians I've talked to about pediatric spay/neuter are against it mainly due to orthopedic issues like increased risk of ACL injury due to abnormal bone development. Because I have working dogs of various disciplines, none of my veterinarians have urged me to speuter. The only thing that we know that is 100% accomplished by speutering is birth control. 

I would trust peer-reviewed research and literature more than the 'opinion' of a veterinarian unless he/she has valid research to support that opinion. I'd also point out that many vets deal only with pet dogs that are rarely exercised. For those of us who compete in dog sports and run many miles/week with their dogs on the trails, the increased physical demands favor a dog with his/her complete hormones.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Muskeg said:


> No, not just anybody can do these studies. The article I've linked to is based on peer-reviewed scientific literature.


LOL exactly. The study I linked was done by professors at the departments of Veterinary Clinical Sciences and Veterinary Pathobiology at Purdue University. It was published in the journal of Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers, and Prevention. Not a couple of Joe Schmoes in their garage writing for freshman biology class.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Emoore said:


> LOL exactly. The study I linked was done by professors at the departments of Veterinary Clinical Sciences and Veterinary Pathobiology at Purdue University. It was published in the journal of Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers, and Prevention. Not a couple of Joe Schmoes in their garage writing for freshman biology class.


Another study that used Rotts, a breed like stated in the article that is prone to cancer. If studies are done and acknowledge then it really has to be per breed, not just one breed. All breeds are different in many different ways. My parents have had two Rotts, the first one fixed when rescued, she was over 1, probably closer to two..she died of cancer. The second was fixed at 6 months and has had no problems. So it really depends on the dog. I'm not saying that the studies aren't good material, I'm just saying that IMO for it to be a study, more then one breed needs to be used.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

llombardo said:


> Another study that used Rotts, a breed like stated in the article that is prone to cancer. If studies are done and acknowledge then it really has to be per breed, not just one breed. All breeds are different in many different ways. My parents have had two Rotts, the first one fixed when rescued, she was over 1, probably closer to two..she died of cancer. The second was fixed at 6 months and has had no problems. So it really depends on the dog. I'm not saying that the studies aren't good material, I'm just saying that IMO for it to be a study, more then one breed needs to be used.


I respectfully disagree with you that it means nothing because it only uses one breed. If it were done on different breeds, it would be criticized because breed differences could account for the difference in cancer outcomes. 

Different breeds of dog are more genetically similar than they are different. Of course a study done only on Rottweilers may not be able to be 100% applied to every breed, but some conclusions can be drawn, especially to other large breeds. I think it's folly to completely disregard this well-run study simply because it was only done on one breed of dog. 

That said, the issue of spay/neuter is incredibly complex and this one study only reveals one little piece of the puzzle that owners can use in making their decisions.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I respectfully disagree with you that it means nothing because it only uses one breed. If it were done on different breeds, it would be criticized because breed differences could account for the difference in cancer outcomes.
> 
> Different breeds of dog are more genetically similar than they are different. Of course a study done only on Rottweilers may not be able to be 100% applied to every breed, but some conclusions can be drawn, especially to other large breeds. I think it's folly to completely disregard this well-run study simply because it was only done on one breed of dog.
> 
> That said, the issue of spay/neuter is incredibly complex and this one study only reveals one little piece of the puzzle that owners can use in making their decisions.


Cancer is cancer whether its a Rott, GSD, or a poodle. Some dogs are more prone to it no matter if they are fixed or not. Rotts are that breed. I agree that if different breeds were used it would be criticized, and I'll give you this..the study is geared more for larger dogs, but that doesn't help the smaller breeds even a little bit. This is where a vet comes in and explains the pros and cons of spaying/neutering based on the breed. I'm sure a vet with 20 years of hands on experience will have an idea of what breeds require what. I hear all the time about the growth being affected if they get fixed early...would you say that applies to both GSD's and a chihuahua? Probably not..it will differ. By all means I'm not saying that these studies aren't good and they are good reading material, but they can't be the only thing taken into consideration when making the decision to spay or neuter. I would definitely be more interested if any of these studies used any other breed besides a Rott. If they got a breed that wasn't prone to cancer and they did these studies, that would be a more reliable study.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

OP, you should do what you are comfortable with. If you are not comfortable owning an intact dog, then go ahead and get him neutered now. If you feel like this is a challenge you would like to meet, then leave him intact. You seem like you are worried about the potential negative outcomes, which is good, that worry will keep you on top of things.

Health risks may be there but generally speaking we are talking very, very small percentages, to the point where the difference between intact & neutered is, IMHO, not even worth taking into consideration. A lot of these studies don't mean what you think they do either. Maybe it shows a 2% higher risk for a certain type of cancer, but what it doesn't tell you on the surface is that the "fixed" dogs were all neutered at two months of age. Or perhaps a very large majority all had a certain sire in their history (studies done on a single breed may be particularly prone to this sort of flaw).

What I'm saying is, don't discount them completely, but take them with a grain of salt. Even if they say exactly what they appear to on the surface, and there's no confounding factors (good science needs to be repeatable, if no other studies have been performed, it's not a good statistic to base a decision on), it's still small percentages.

My current dog is intact but my next one will probably be neutered around 14 or 15 months of age. Of course my game plan is always subject to change based on the individual dog and his needs (or her, I guess), but, that's what I'm thinking for now.

My PERSONAL *opinion* is that six months is too young, and I would not go sooner than a year of age in a dog of a GSD's size. It is, again, based on those small numbers and if you don't feel comfortable with an intact male my opinion and other people's opinions on the "right" age should not stop you from having him neutered if you feel that is best. That's why I have the stress on "personal opinion."

The health studies are interesting, and worth taking into account to a small extent - but any of the living circumstances involving you or your dog, or his behavior, your level of comfort, etc, pretty much everything else - should all come before the health considerations, TBH. They really are not high enough to take into account _that_ strongly. JMHO.

~

On the Rottweiler study:

Any time you restrict a study to purebred dogs you risk having your data "thrown" by genetically inherited problems. There could be "popular sire" syndrome coming into play here, for instance. There's also the mistake in assuming that because a breed prone to a particular type of cancer is more likely to contract it if neutered young, that a breed NOT prone to that type of cancer would also be more likely to contract it if neutered young. So even if the hormones offer a protective effect against certain types of cancers, this effect might not be measurable or even existent in a breed NOT prone to those types of cancers.

I would wager this study means there is a strong likelihood that early neuter may play a detrimental effect in breeds prone to osteosarcoma. But until it is repeated, and the results verified, it is just one study, and even then, a study done just on one breed whose results may or may not correlate to other cancer-prone breeds or even other breeds, period.

I think the results are interesting, and strong enough that I would certainly be wary about spaying/neutering a pet Rottweiler young. I don't believe it is bad science. But I also don't believe it is confirmed dead-set "fact" until I see a repeat, or two, or three, to rule out these confounding factors I mentioned. It is possible they were accounted for, perhaps they went clear back in the pedigrees of all the dogs they looked at to try and get the most genetic diversity possible, etc, but then you still have the other problem that you would simply need studies for other breeds, or a study on multiple breeds, or mixed breeds, etc, so on, so forth. You get the picture.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm leaning towards waiting until maturity, maybe 2-3 years, maybe longer. MAYBE. Hormones are important to growing dogs, I want Spirit to grow to his full potential with everything he needs to be the best he can be. 

But I need to consider what the effects will be of doing the surgery later rather than sooner. What can I expect as far as complications and recovery? 

Don't male dogs fight when they're around a female dog in heat? I am terrified of dog fights, seriously terrified. I don't want to find myself in a position where I am having to manage that behavior. I just don't want it to happen, period. I'm not good at that


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I don't intend to neuter or spay any of my dogs unless a medical condition requires it. I prefer natural rearing when it comes to raising animals. At 13 months old, my intact male is very easy to manage. He has been around several females in heat on leash without problem. He tries to court and mount his best friend when she is in heat, but since they are both on leash together we don't have issues.

In the end, it's all about management and your personal beliefs. You can either manage him or you can't.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

It's probably one of those things that is not near as bad as you imagine it to be. I'm on a huge learning curve with this being my first GSD and my first male dog. I'm loving it really ... I wanted a challenge, I'm happy to have one. I'm responsible, I'm in charge ... I can do this.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jo Ellen said:


> But I need to consider what the effects will be of doing the surgery later rather than sooner. What can I expect as far as complications and recovery?
> 
> Don't male dogs fight when they're around a female dog in heat? I am terrified of dog fights, seriously terrified. I don't want to find myself in a position where I am having to manage that behavior. I just don't want it to happen, period. I'm not good at that


When I was fostering, I took probably 20 dogs of differing ages through neuters. One had a bad reaction, and he was under a year old. He contracted an infection. Other than that, neuter is a very simple surgery when both testicles are descended, even in adult dogs. 

You mention dog fights. . . but you only have one male, correct? What dog would your dog be fighting with? Do you anticipate a situation where your male dog would be around other intact male dogs and a female in heat? It's honestly not something I've ever dealt with. 

I think there's this impression going around that if there's a female in heat 3 miles away your intact male will turn into some ravening werewolf. It's just not the case.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Not that one dog is considered anything other than anecdotal, but my last shep, a mix I believe, I kept intact until over 2 years old. He still developed osteosarcoma just shy of 10 years old. It's so hard to definitively say.

ETA: I chose to neuter him, even though we had no problems, because he had retained testicles. Both of them. So does my present pup, so most likely we will neuter sometime this fall/winter. Grrr.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Jo Ellen said:


> Don't male dogs fight when they're around a female dog in heat? I am terrified of dog fights, seriously terrified. I don't want to find myself in a position where I am having to manage that behavior. I just don't want it to happen, period. I'm not good at that


My *4 intact males* - 3 Chinese Cresteds and 1 GSD - do not fight when my CC girl goes into season.

They go off their food. They howl. They must pee EVERYWHERE she did when they get outside. Their brains shut off.

But they do not fight.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I think there's this impression going around that if there's a female in heat 3 miles away your intact male will turn into some ravening werewolf. It's just not the case.


LOL, thank you. I have such images in my mind, I truly don't know what to expect. 

I am concerned about training classes. We will be very active in obedience and other types of training for a long time to come. Can I assume that owners of female dogs in heat will keep their dogs home? Is that a safe assumption? What if they don't know? And I probably can assume there will be other intact males in classes ... so not sure how this will work. And since I don't know what it will be like, I easily imagine the worst. I'm such a girl


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

RocketDog said:


> Not that one dog is considered anything other than anecdotal, but my last shep, a mix I believe, I kept intact until over 2 years old. He still developed osteosarcoma just shy of 10 years old. It's so hard to definitively say.


Oh definitely. And we all know somebody who eats very healthy, exercises daily, and drops dead of a heart attack at 40 while Great-Grandma eats fried chicken well into her 90's. The issue of health effects of spay/neuter is *hugely* murky and confusing, especially since it's laden with so much emotion and politics.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Agreed, Emoore. And almost as frustrating as watching the person who remains rail thin while eating Taco Bell every day, LOL!


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

ROTFL, maybe I'm just afraid of testosterone HAH. Dogs are crazy enough, add the testosterone surge and maybe I just feel I'm out of my league.

I have so much to learn  My only regret is I didn't start earlier in my life with dogs ... my time now is limited, I want to cram everything I can into what's left.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I didn't neuter my male until he was 15 months old.

I did not and still do not have a fenced in yard.

He never mounted, marked or left the yard for a female in heat.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jo Ellen said:


> LOL, thank you. I have such images in my mind, I truly don't know what to expect.
> 
> I am concerned about training classes. We will be very active in obedience and other types of training for a long time to come. Can I assume that owners of female dogs in heat will keep their dogs home? Is that a safe assumption? What if they don't know? And I probably can assume there will be other intact males in classes ... so not sure how this will work. And since I don't know what it will be like, I easily imagine the worst. I'm such a girl


Been taking my intact male to training classes since he was 9 weeks. We even do agility without a leash. Honestly, the fact that he is intact is very very rare out our training school. I've received some strong disapproval from classmates for bringing a "dangerous" intact male German Shepherd to class--even though he is always on good behavior. I've had people cross the room to get away with us when they realized Kopper was intact, even though he was completely focused on me and obeying my every command while ignoring their dog. The funniest was a woman with a neutered male Labradoodle who would not stop barking and lunging at Kopper, who was doing nothing wrong. She complained to the teacher that I shouldn't be allowed to bring an intact German Shepherd to class. 

I've had friends who trained in SchH and PSA tell me that they were encouraged to bring their in-heat females to training because the males need to learn to ignore them and focus on their work, since intact females go to trials. I keep the same mindset for our classes. If someone shows up with a female in heat, my dog just needs to learn to focus on me and ignore it. It's just another distraction.



*Now, with all that said*, if YOU don't feel confident in your ability to handle your intact male dog or you just don't want to deal with it, please get him neutered.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

But Lauri, you have been very open, and it is appreciated, that you did have a litter that was unplanned. So while there are no fights, things can happen. Home, dogs from the neighborhood, wherever. It is not something that you can generalize - because everyone's situation and environment is so different. Look at the south (generalizing!) where it's like some kind of dog orgy. 

I think there is a higher level of supervision required, and having a good recall, and proofing it, over and over, even with female dogs in heat in a controlled environment in a training class may be something to consider doing for the OP. Though I don't even know if that would be 100% - no idea. You are a breeder, Lauri, so in your situation you had a plan, but when it's your dog and somebody's Labrador Pittollie girl, it's not going to be so great. 

I would not worry about "male" behavior, though I have always seen a little mellowing when a male is neutered, but I would be concerned that my dog, particularly depending on where you live and the vigilance of the people around you (look at areas where people do not spay or neuter) would blow me off in a situation of interest such as that. I am not that confident in my ability to control the behavior of another living being 100%. 

So everything else aside, it is going to be up to you to 
A. always control situations you are in
B. understand that you may have to limit some activities (off leash in areas where there are unspayed or unknown females) or not
C. there will be a responsibility over which you have no control if he impregnates a female (i.e., they may do an emergency spay, or they may say, hey, we can sell 1/2 GSD 1/2 LabPittOllies on CL) 

It sounds like you think you can do it. I however, do not know you, and do not know your environment, so would never tell you either way. I know it can be done, but again, you are a random internet person, so am I, so we can't just say, hey, my friend does, it so can you. 

Good luck either way though!


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

The cancer concerns are not going to sway my decision, I just don't feel we have enough information to make conclusions about this yet. Dogs are so prone to cancer anyway, it feels like a crap shoot. 

What is going to govern my decision is what is best for Spirit's growth and physical development.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> I didn't neuter my male until he was 15 months old.
> 
> I did not and still do not have a fenced in yard.
> 
> He never mounted, marked or left the yard for a female in heat.


MUSIC !!!!! :hug:


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> But Lauri, you have been very open, and it is appreciated, that you did have a litter that was unplanned. So while there are no fights, things can happen.


True. There is that. Luckily it was my own female and, as you said, I had a plan. If it had been someone else's bitch I would have offered to pay for the spay or I would have taken the responsibility of finding the right homes for the puppies.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

bunchoberrys said:


> Is it with the American Veterinary Medical Association? If not, I would take the studies with a grain a salt.


You can't be serious, The AVMA are the only world body that are capable of performing veterinary studies/research?


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