# Just curious of my non papered gsd.



## Sandra Heims (Jul 9, 2018)

Update: I found his father and was able to get a photo of his father's pedigree. The names are really silly though, so I'm assuming they were pets or working farm dogs? Also his dna shows that he is a bicolor with atat at the a locus.

So I love my boy and don't care that he's not papered. He's been amazing and with a perfect temperament and is just so confident. He also does amazing with my disabled sister whom i might make him a service dog for having such perfect natural responses to her and his ability to train so amazingly. Loves other dogs, cats, chickens, and people. He's also the reason we still have our house as he alerted to a fire that started to melt off the side of a truck and was staring to eat at our house. Even followed me as i ran towards the truck to move it just in the nick of time. Also seems to have natural herding instincts.

That being said, as I'm not yet an expert on the breed, (hopefully one day) and he has no papers I'm wondering how he compares to others who are well bred. A video of him playing a couple months back is on the link below from my Google drive... I can post a new one when it stops raining. The black gsd IS AKC registered.

20190621_143247_1.mp4

View attachment 526471


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Registered dogs are not all "we'll bred", and likewise unregistered dogs are not all poorly bred, puppy mill dogs! But the registration papers do give you alot of insight that you don't have without them! Sounds to me like you got lucky, but healthwise, only time - or an embark DNA test - will tell! He is a handsome dog!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog is all you can want. He's a family member, has shown his intelligence in several ways. That he doesn't have papers doesn't make him better or worse than another dog. Buying a dog without papers is much more of a crap shoot. Breeding a dog without papers is plain wrong. But enjoying and loving and caring for a dog with or without papers is what we do. 

As a breeder, I have folks who tell me they don't want to breed, and they don't want to show, so they don't want the papers, so they want me to sell the dog to them for cheaper because no papers. Well, I am going to say to the next person that asks me to do this, "Ok, I'll give you a discount. $2." That is what it costs to provide your dog with papers, over and above providing the rest of litter with papers. That is the difference in cost between a dog with papers and a dog without papers that could have papers. 

But getting a dog from a shelter or rescue that appears to be purebred, but has no papers, that's fine. Don't breed the dog. But everything else do, and do 100%.


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## Sandra Heims (Jul 9, 2018)

So, he actually isn't a rescue. I bought him from a byb, the mother was not papered but the father was. I was so impressed by him I became a GSD lover and got another one who requires more training than he and actually has picked up a lot of good behaviors as she needs the socialization that he had naturally out of the box. 

It's funny, my breeder was so happy that I registered my black GSD as she said I would surprised how many didn't register. I am figuring that the same happened In Atlas' background. 

But what I was wondering is if he fits the breed standard. I may want to get him PAL registered and show him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, to get him PAL registered, he has to be neutered. If neutered, he cannot be shown in conformation. Showing in conformation is not a beauty contest, it is a contest to how near a dog meets the standard for the purpose of passing on the best genes. Altered dogs are not eligible. 

But you can show in obedience, rally, herding trials, and all kinds of other things. Frankly, he is not what is going in either the AKC ring or the SV ring, that doesn't mean he isn't a beautiful dog, it's just not what will go in those rings, specialty or all breed, and there is no point in pursuing it to be disappointed. If you want to show, pick a breed in the middle of the breed popularity, so you have a chance of getting a show prospect, and enough entries to show. Showing GSDs is particularly hard because of their popularity, the mesh of lines, politics. I think one of the mods shows, dog fairies. 

Let's put it this way, you don't get a pretty puppy and say, let show it. You start long before that pup is born, getting to know the folks that are showing and finding the breeding you want, paying for the show prospect, starting at eight weeks with setting the pup up and getting it used to handling, berry checks and all that, and all the time letting your breeder guide you while you rub elbows with the other people that show and judge in GSDs. The breeder can help you know what judges to put your dog in the shows. You can become very poor very fast in dogs. Only best of breed and above gets points. Not like in obedience and rally, if your dog does everything to a minimum score at least, it qualifies and you can easily title in three ring appearances. But in the show ring, only Best of Breed gets points, and you need so many points, and two majors, show under at least two judges, maybe more, to get that CH. I think it is something the SV does better. They give each dog a rating, VA, V, SG, G and then the number that they finished in the class. So if your dog finished 3 in excellent select, it would be VA3, but I think that is only the sieger show. 

Anyway, getting a PAL and showing in agility or Rally or obedience, herding, freestyle -- so many sports like fly ball, dock diving, herding, nose work, barn hunting. Find what your dog excels at and go for it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blacks are interesting. I always said I wouldn't have one, but I am probably all wet on that. The thing is, to get a pure black, you have to have blacks on both sides, the dam and the sire. And a lot of people who breed blacks like to have six generations of black dogs only in the pedigree. So, you have to wonder if they are making choices more for color than for structure, health, temperament. 

But she's right, a lot of people do not bother to register their purebred dogs. This is fine. If you do not want to breed or show, than registration is non-value-added. You can probably look up your dog from the pedigree the breeder provided and paying the 30 bucks or so to register the dog is not necessary to a lot of folks. 

Breeding a dog without papers, however they do not have papers is the problem.


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## Sandra Heims (Jul 9, 2018)

My black is fully registered. I made sure after Atlas as to me it was a shame he isn't registered. After getting him I started doing more research and learned more about it all. I have seen so many German shepherds who were registered and not well bred and read about so many breeding German Shepherds that were aggressive and i realized how lucky i was with Atlas and didn't want top be unlucky the second time. 

I do plan on nuetering but I worry about some of the problems that arises from it such as weight problems. I was thinking about spaying my girl when she reaches full maturity. The reason is that although her temperament is good, Atlas is a better prospect for being a service dog. 

My girls pedigree is below.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

She has sables and blacks behind her. I think I like that better than an all black pedigree. A lot of recent imports. You can neuter him, get a PAL with him to compete in AKC events other than conformation, and make him a service dog.


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## Sandra Heims (Jul 9, 2018)

How would you rate her pedigree? I figured her line would probably be best for pet and not showing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sandra Heims said:


> How would you rate her pedigree? I figured her line would probably be best for pet and not showing.
> View attachment 526503


I am not adequate at rating her pedigree. I am an amateur or student of West German Showlines. There may be others that can help you with these dogs.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Your black dog comes from police dog lines on both sides. I’m not familiar with the actual dogs but I do recognize the kennels.

Your other dog looks like nice pet lines. He’s a pretty boy.


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## Sandra Heims (Jul 9, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> Your black dog comes from police dog lines on both sides. I’m not familiar with the actual dogs but I do recognize the kennels.
> 
> Your other dog looks like nice pet lines. He’s a pretty boy.


You know, it's kind of funny, I always could tell that Kiana was naturally more of a guard dog. Ive been socializing her well because of it.

I wish I wish I had Atlas background because i suspect his ancestors were used for herding. When i got Kiana and she would try to run off Atlas would herd her back home as well as when our chicken got out, the neighbors boy, my sister when she's tried to run from him for fun. He wants everyone where he can watch over them. I don't see much about other gsds having a lot of herding instincts, but more for protection or showing. 

Have you seen a lot of gsds with herding instincts?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sandra Heims said:


> You know, it's kind of funny, I always could tell that Kiana was naturally more of a guard dog. Ive been socializing her well because of it.
> 
> I wish I wish I had Atlas background because i suspect his ancestors were used for herding. When i got Kiana and she would try to run off Atlas would herd her back home as well as when our chicken got out, the neighbors boy, my sister when she's tried to run from him for fun. He wants everyone where he can watch over them. I don't see much about other gsds having a lot of herding instincts, but more for protection or showing.
> 
> Have you seen a lot of gsds with herding instincts?


Well, a proper shepHERD should have herding instinct as that was what they were created and bred for. I did a herding instinct test with Babsy and the lady running it was very impressed with her. I guess a lot of shepherds have lost it though. In the West German Show line dogs, Kirchental was the ones that seemed to really have the herding ability, and he worked his dogs. But I think he passed and the younger owners did not keep it up in their breeding stock. 

Evenso, they're around, even Dallas (Kinsmets sight for sore eyes, an American Showline dog) was a herding champion.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sandra Heims said:


> How would you rate her pedigree? I figured her line would probably be best for pet and not showing.
> View attachment 526505
> View attachment 526509


She's a beauty! I can't speak to how well she'd do in a show ring, but what a great looking dog, structurally!


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Both of your dogs are beautiful. How old is your boy? He is so handsome but exudes youth, he’s adorable and I really like his colors plus how he is put together. I would like to mention that UKC offers conformation classes for altered dogs and is touted to be more “beginner friendly” and open minded to different varieties than AKC. They also hold all the same types of other events. I’ll be exhibiting my 16 month old boy in his first (UKC) conformation show in two weeks even though he’s also AKC registered. Enroll in a sport class, we are in beginner agility and love it!


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## Sandra Heims (Jul 9, 2018)

atomic said:


> Both of your dogs are beautiful. How old is your boy? He is so handsome but exudes youth, he’s adorable and I really like his colors plus how he is put together. I would like to mention that UKC offers conformation classes for altered dogs and is touted to be more “beginner friendly” and open minded to different varieties than AKC. They also hold all the same types of other events. I’ll be exhibiting my 16 month old boy in his first (UKC) conformation show in two weeks even though he’s also AKC registered. Enroll in a sport class, we are in beginner agility and love it!


He is 1 year and 5 months. UKC does sound more fun and I may give that a try!!! I was thinking about seeing what his herding aptitude is well as he definitely herds us. The only reason i haven't started training him for this or agility already is that I'm hesitant about altering him just because I'd like to show him for fun and training purposes. I feel it's selfish of me to put him through all of that. 

But my main focus with him is service dog training for my sister who could care less for him, has tried to throw him out the house, dropped him as a puppy. Pushes him away repeatedly... he is simply unfazed and although she does nothing for him he still tries to take care of her. Every dog I've ever had runs from her when she is upset, but not Atlas. Kiana stays clear of her as well. My sister is slowly coming around to him because of his persistence. He tries his hardest to comfort her. She has severe autism and it's very low functioning along with epilepsy (that's treated with medication), as well as other behavior issues. My sister in the picture below with Atlas.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

German Shepherds are herding dogs. It’s what they do. I love the picture of Atlas with your sister, her arm around him while he sits guard over her. You did very well with him.


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## Sandra Heims (Jul 9, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> German Shepherds are herding dogs. It’s what they do. I love the picture of Atlas with your sister, her arm around him while he sits guard over her. You did very well with him.


I wish i could take credit for all of it. Most of it has been a natural instinct he has had since a puppy, things that most dogs need training for, he just does it without needing to be told. Which is why I am so curious to how he would compare to well bred papered dogs. It's definitely something he inherited from this wonderful breed.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Sandra Heims said:


> But my main focus with him is service dog training


Great aspirations. It looks like you are already on your way with your dog's natural instincts. 

What specifically are your goals for service, if you don't mind me asking? I wonder because I am also in the process of training an autistic service dog, with me being the dog's primary person.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sandra Heims said:


> I wish i could take credit for all of it. Most of it has been a natural instinct he has had since a puppy, things that most dogs need training for, he just does it without needing to be told. Which is why I am so curious to how he would compare to well bred papered dogs. It's definitely something he inherited from this wonderful breed.


He is a natural. You can’t buy that. It’s either in them or it isn’t. Not every well bred dog is suited to be a service dog. In fact, many would not be.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

When is his birthday? He’s almost exactly the same age as my pup. He absolutely loves his agility classes as it has helped so much with training and creating a better bond/understanding between us. Even if you don’t ever compete, classes will still benefit you both. I do sympathize with the dilemma you face, I have a three year old intact Dobe/GSD and don’t plan on neutering him. I have no reason to. He is crazy athletic but doesn’t deal well with other dogs so competition isn’t really feasible with him anyway.


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## Sandra Heims (Jul 9, 2018)

CeraDean said:


> Sandra Heims said:
> 
> 
> > But my main focus with him is service dog training
> ...



What are your primary needs in a service dog? They have a good group on Facebook for owner trained service dogs that had a lot of great ideas. I can post the url if you are interested. You said you would be the primary, are you training for yourself or another? What you will want to train will be what you need most that they can help with.

My goals for scarlet are different from what most need because of her severity and her specific needs. Atlas will mostly do work in the home as opposed to in the community. But I do heel train and have him do strict obedience outside just in case that changes. (If i ask him to sit and stay, I can walk out of site into another isle and he'll still be there when I return until he is released. He mostly has that down, just needs practice. He is always at a heel, when at restaurants he's is always laying neatly under the table. 

For her my biggest goal is find. (He will go to her and whine loudly to alert us where she is). She's very limited in her speech and does not respond to us when calling. She's been known to wonder off. Will start in the house with two separate commands. 'Find', will give him a treat whenever he goes to scarlet and sits beside her, then will add in the 'whine' then will work it up bit by bit to further distances. 

I'd also like him to bark whenever she walks out the door. 

Another goal is to help with her self stimming. When she is being loud to put his head in her lap. When she pets him he will be released (so as to give her a bit of space as well)

Right now her epilepsy is controlled so it's hard to train him for that. I'd like him to whine in front of her to alert us that it's coming. When we've had to have her sit on the ground for her safety he already goes and lays directly beside her when he could be anywhere else, but he chooses to be beside her. 

I like the idea of him whining over barking because he has a very intimidating bark and a whine won't scare people away but draw more attention. People tend to see him and want to pet or are scared of him. He has a good loud whine that I want to start encouraging.


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## Sandra Heims (Jul 9, 2018)

atomic said:


> When is his birthday? He’s almost exactly the same age as my pup. He absolutely loves his agility classes as it has helped so much with training and creating a better bond/understanding between us. Even if you don’t ever compete, classes will still benefit you both. I do sympathize with the dilemma you face, I have a three year old intact Dobe/GSD and don’t plan on neutering him. I have no reason to. He is crazy athletic but doesn’t deal well with other dogs so competition isn’t really feasible with him anyway.


He was born May 11 and is a bundle of energy and I fear that nuetering him will decrease his energy level and make him gain weight. He's at the perfect weight and his vet told me to not let him gain or lose weight. 

What does your dobe gsd look like? That must be a powerful mix. Is he more dobe or gsd in temperament / looks?


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Physically he is an even split. Temperament more Dobe, at least compared to my GSD. He’s just as smart but more willful, very vocal, and he’s always on the move.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Posting the url would be nice ☺

I'm training Vandal to aid my son and like you, mostly for in home work (we homeschool). We will work on public access but it's not necessary. 

We are working on find and deep pressure, so it sounds like we have very similar goals. My son can hide and think it's a funny game, but it's actually a nightmare so I want Vandal to find him. So far we are doing a combo of Schutzhund style tracks and stinky thing in a hole filled water bottle finds. We'll also play hide and seek in the house with Vandal. The deep pressure has gone very well and we've been able to utilize twice even though Vandal is still a pup. I included a pic of Vandal working on deep pressure. 

Our prospect is 10 weeks old so we have a long journey ahead and it's a little less sure that his personality matches service.

It's nice to meet someone with similar goals.


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## Sandra Heims (Jul 9, 2018)

CeraDean said:


> Posting the url would be nice ☺
> 
> I'm training Vandal to aid my son and like you, mostly for in home work (we homeschool). We will work on public access but it's not necessary.
> 
> ...


It's wonderful to meet you as well! 

There are 2 big Facebook groups I've found. The one I'm a member of is 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ownertrainedservicedogs/

There is a bigger group I just noticed that you may be interested in as well. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/OTSDServiceDogs/

It's pretty terrifying when you can't find them. So many worries go through your head. Because scarlet kept wandering the cops tried to put a tracking bracelet on her but she ripped hers off, they couldn't beleive it. She took off one year on the snow and another year she won't into a neighbor's house to grab chips when she was on a gluten free diet. She goes through phases of behavior and hasn't wondered the last few years, but some behaviors cycle back and it's best to be prepared when possible. 

I ended up lucky with Atlas, he seemed to know that I was the one and layed on my lap for 30 minutes before i took him home. 

I think the most important thing is the bond you foster with your furbaby. A dog who seems to love being around others and is confident will make it much easier. The friendlier he is the better so socializing (of course being careful of parvo) is great. Is this your first GSD?

My first interaction with Atlas as a puppy and Atlas with me as he's grown. Atlas always slept with me and I never crate trained him.








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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Cute pics! 

Yep, he's my first GSD but not my first dog. Vandal is working line and so far I'm totally impressed. He's really a great dog. He's so smart and in tune to us. It's a dream having a dog so ready to do stuff with me. He'd replace my right hand if he knew how...then I'd have a land shark hand ?


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## Kelsey7669 (Nov 4, 2019)

Wow your dog looks so much like my puppy! I hope he grows to be as handsome as your boy ?


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Handsome head on that dog. I love how alert he looks. His back is well formed, too.


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