# Breeder wants dog back



## GregMcduck

Hey, in a bit of a pickle, hope someone could help.

I live in a house with three other guys, and we decided to get a German Shepherd puppy. One of my housemates, "Andrew," found what I believe to be a non-AKC registered breeder through the classifieds with a batch of six-week old pure-breed puppies. While none of us had any preference on gender, Andrew wanted a female and told the breeder as such. So they made a deal and I, Andrew and Andrew's girlfriend went down to pick one up. We played with them for a little bit, and one seemed a bit friendlier than the others, so we asked if that one was taken.

The breeder picked the puppy, looked at it and said it was a female. He held it for a while and talked with his wife, referring to it has female several times. He said it was available, and handed the puppy to me. I held the puppy the entire time, there was no moment where it could have accidentally mingled with the others. The breeder took the identification collar off, Andrew handed over the money ($400) and the breeder gave him a receipt. We took the dog home and have begun raising him.

We didn't realize till the next morning that the dog was actually male. We had no reason to doubt what the breeder said, so we didn't check ourselves. Andrew said he didn't care. The puppy is very friendly and we've bonded with him very strongly over the last couple of days. 

Then, the breeder showed up at our front door. I was the only one home at the time. He didn't call anyone, even though he had Andrew's number. He said that the dog we took was taken by someone else, a person who put a down-payment before the litter was even born on the biggest male. The breeder was very crass and refused to except responsibility for his mistake. I told him him to return that evening when Andrew came home from work, and he agreed. An hour later, he returned to the door and said he had gone to Andrew's workplace and convinced Andrew to let him take the dog back.

He went to his workplace. Can't you get sued for something like that? So, I contacted Andrew over the phone and convinced him this needed to be a decision with the house, since we agreed it was going to belong to all of us. Andrew managed to get an early lunch break to come over and talk to the breeder, who still refused to take responsibility for the mistake. The breeder said he was more than willing to go to the police over it (Since I believe the breeder is not registered, does that make this a civil matter, and thus threatening with the police makes it extortion?). Eventually, Andrew convinced the breeder to call the original buyer and see if they could work out the deal.

Apparently, we get to keep the dog if we give the breeder more money. None of us want to do that. We've already bonded with the dog, we've already begun training it, and we're very attached, especially me. We haven't gotten the dog registered in any way, there was no notary involved in either our purchase or the other buyer, and no official contracts beyond a receipt that says "female puppy." We've had the dog for four days.

Is there anything I'm missing? Is the dog rightfully ours, or have we messed up? Please help!


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## Elaine

Did you sign a contract? If so, what was in it? If you didn't sign a contract, I don't see where the breeder has a leg to stand on unless you guys choose to give the puppy back.

This is yet another good reason not to support BYBs. If you are interested in getting a good pet, you can always try looking into getting a rescue.


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## RocketDog

I agree with Elaine. You also have witnesses, to support your side of the story. I think the guy is a DB and I'd worry about him stealing back the puppy or switching him, so be careful. Good luck, what a situation!


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## NancyJ

You are obviously dealing with a scum and a back yard breeder to boot.
I would tell him he can have the dog back for $500 for the trouble you have gone through and be done with him. 

Odds are pretty good he did not do the kind of testing to product good hips, temperament, and health than most reputable breeders do. You pay more up front for a well bred puppy from a reputable breeder, you usually get some level of warranty, and most certainly a contract and registration for the pup. If you have only had him a few days, it is "infatuation" not "love" as someone said in another thread. Real bonding takes months.

Then stay on this board and do some reasearch about getting a nicely bred dog.

In terms of the law - talk to a lawyer about your pickle. I would imagine you would prevail.


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## Lucy Dog

You took the puppy home at 6 weeks? You paid $400 for the puppy? The breeder can't tell the difference between a male and female puppy?!? 

Give the puppy back to the backyard breeder, get your money back, and go with a completely different breeder. 

Not the advice I'd normally give, but given the situation where the puppy is from, I'd give the puppy back and find another breeder without hesitation. It's the best decision for the long run.


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## Geeheim

If you didn't sign a contract and your friend doesn't want to give the pup back. Then, I also don't see where he would have a leg to stand on. You all are in possession of the dog. You paid for him and have a receipt to prove it. Also, if you did decide to keep him. I do not see how the breeder could make you pay more money for him.



> Give the puppy back to the backyard breeder, get your money back, and go with a completely different breeder.


Personally, i would do this. Be done with this shady BYB and go find yourself a reputable one.


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## Narny

Lucy Dog said:


> You took the puppy home at 6 weeks? You paid $400 for the puppy? The breeder can't tell the difference between a male and female puppy?!?
> 
> Give the puppy back to the backyard breeder, get your money back, and go with a completely different breeder.
> 
> Not the advice I'd normally give, but given the situation where the puppy is from, I'd give the puppy back and find another breeder without hesitation. It's the best decision for the long run.



+1

Consider this a blessing in disguise. You have no idea what it could have been like. Look either into a rescue or go find a better breeders and spend about double what you currently paid. Not to mention that it sounds like you will have to be SUPER careful this guy doesnt come and steal the puppy or switch him out.


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## Courtney

Oh boy, what a mess. If this was someone I knew my advise would be to return the puppy and get the money back. Take it as a lessoned learned and spend more time researching breeders or reach out to a GSD rescue. This whole story is just bad.

I always get a little nervous when roommates get a dog. Who is primarily responsible for the puppy to include training, vet bills, food purchase, etc?


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## GregMcduck

Unless there's something I don't know about, Andrew didn't sign anything, all there is is a receipt from one of those receipt books you can pick up at Wal-Mart that says "female puppy" on it. It was only signed by the breeder. 

I don't want to get rid of the dog. I did see the parents, they seemed healthy (though it's pretty clear I'm a total noob in dealing with dog breeding).


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## Betty

Your breeder (and I use that term loosely) doesn't have a leg to stand on. He handed you the dog and gave you a receipt.

Personally I would not return the pup but that's me. 

I would also take precautions that he is unable to steal the dog and would see what, if any, preliminary steps I would need to take in order to press future trespass charges.


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## Lucy Dog

Take a look at this thread. This person is a backyard breeder and not someone I'd recommend keeping a puppy from.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## NancyJ

If the breeder can't tell a boy puppy from a girl puppy you know....they can tell the sex at birth and it is a heck of a lot more distinct at 6 weeks than at birth...and true if it is 6 weeks old it is still too young to be separated from its litter. That can cause lifelong problems with the dog not being able to behave properly around other dogs, which is already a problem in poorly bred GSDs........the fact that he offered you the chance to keep it and pay more screams "scam" to me...


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## GregMcduck

I have been corrected, Andrew just told me they're eight weeks old. I don't know how I got it in my head that they were six.


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## Narny

We know you dont want to get rid of the pup. We all really do understand that. We are just looking at the bigger picture. 

BYB (back yard breeders) do nothing to guarantee the pup you have wont have health problems. They dont breed to better the breed. They breed their bitches until they cant breed anymore and then often dump them somewhere. There is also the pet owner breeder. The kind of people who love their dog and because they think he or she is awesome they want puppies from them. Never mind if the dogs are compatible genetically nor do they worry about what they will produce. They simply dont think that far into it.

Now from what you have said (and it really is a sad situation) this doesnt sound like someone who is a pet owner breeder to me. They had deposits placed on the pups so this wasnt a new comer to the world of breeding imo.

What ever you decide to do I hope you are able to work out this mess. 

Good luck.


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## Courtney

Greg, if you really want to keep the puppy, keep him. I honestly don't think the guy has a leg to stand on. His actions are very fishy, saying you can keep the puppy but must give more money, PLEASE!

How does this guy know so much about you guys (home & work address)? I'm assuming small talk at his house? Save all the receipts for everything you have already purchased for the puppy & the ones moving forward.

If he threatens to call the police, tell him he's going to have beat you to it.


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## Freestep

Lucy Dog said:


> Give the puppy back to the backyard breeder, get your money back, and go with a completely different breeder.
> 
> Not the advice I'd normally give, but given the situation where the puppy is from, I'd give the puppy back and find another breeder without hesitation. It's the best decision for the long run.


I have to agree with this.

However, if you really want to keep the puppy, tell this "breeder" to go fly a kite. He can call the police all day long, it's not going to do him a bit of good. Chances are, if he can't even tell a male puppy from a female, he's not playing with a full deck of cards. You can probably sue him if he continues to harass you, and coming onto your property without being invited is technically trespassing.


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## TheNamesNelson

If you are set on keeping the dog, which by no way are you obligated to return it, then call the police on this guy and say he is harassing you. He is just trying to intimidate you into doing what he wants, don't let him get in your head.


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## carmspack

was there only one friendly pup in the litter?

did you buy on impulse or had you seen the parents of the litter and the pups before . 

if you had left without a pup, would you go back and buy one from this person?

I am on side with all the others who say return the pup -- find another breeder .

the price is terribly cheap.

If they skimped on feeding the mother during her carrying the pups - there will be implications on the health of the pup , somewhere , sometime. Did you see the mother? 
Did you ask questions , how many litters has she had, when was her last litter ?


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## selzer

Hang on to that receipt. 

Keep the puppy. Do not give one more red cent. Tell the _breeder_ that you will call the police if he does not stop harrassing you. He made a mistake, you are already attached to the puppy, and he needs to work it out with the other buyer, maybe reducing his price.


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## GregMcduck

carmspack said:


> was there only one friendly pup in the litter?


They were all very friendly and active. They were playing with each other, they were playing with the mom, and they played with us. The one we picked just gave us a little more attention than the others.



> did you buy on impulse or had you seen the parents of the litter and the pups before .


Andrew did most of the work in looking at the parents. I did meet the mother when we went there, and she seemed very friendly and had no obvious ailments.



> the price is terribly cheap.


Andrew had managed to haggle it down from $600.


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## llombardo

I don't believe that the cops can get involved, you didn't steal the dog-you have a receipt. All three of you were there and know what was said/done, so if he decides to take you to court, which he won't, because that will cost $$$ I wouldn't worry about it. He made a mistake and now he is scrambling and its his problem.

Keep your puppy....there is no way I would give that puppy back


I got my GSD puppy for $200.00 without any papers and since then I have learned more about her parents through my own investigating and she would be considered a dog from a byb, but her temperament is better then any dog I know. I have also learned that her father has championship bloodlines and both parents were health checked. Did I know any of this before hand? NOPE and it wouldn't have changed anything anyway I paid a tons less then most people and my dog is perfect The same applies to my golden retriever(he came with papers) but only cost $300.00 and I can trace all of his lines...


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## llombardo

carmspack said:


> the price is terribly cheap.
> 
> I



This is a terrible thing to say to someone who got a dog that is going to be a pet and the price tag doesn't mean everything.


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## Lucy Dog

llombardo said:


> I got my GSD puppy for $200.00 without any papers and since then I have learned more about her parents through my own investigating and she would be considered a dog from a byb, but her temperament is better then any dog I know. I have also learned that her father has championship bloodlines and both parents were health checked. Did I know any of this before hand? NOPE and it wouldn't have changed anything anyway I paid a tons less then most people and my dog is perfect The same applies to my golden retriever(he came with papers) but only cost $300.00 and I can trace all of his lines...


I don't want to turn this thread into another one of the byb vs responsible breeder threads, but just because you got lucky, doesn't mean the OP will. 

And it's also about not supporting this kind of breeding. By giving your money to breeders like this, you're supporting them. It doesn't matter if your puppy turns into the greatest dog in the history of german shepherds, it's about not supporting all the irresponsible breeders out there like this one. You support them when you buy their product.

If you want a cheap price tag, adopt or rescue. It's a much better option, you're not supporting a bad cause, and the dog is probably come from a similar type place.


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## llombardo

Whats really odd is that don't females tend to cost more then males generally


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## Lucy Dog

llombardo said:


> Whats really odd is that don't females tend to cost more then males generally


No, they should be the same price. Why would a female cost more than a male for your average pet own?


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## Jack's Dad

While I don't disagree with the find a reputable breeder advice, this puppy just like all the others needs a home.

Any dog from anywhere such as this pup or one from animal control, or rescues. even from reputable breeders can have health or temperament problems.

No one can give an absolute guarantee. 

If you give the dog back someone else will buy it or it will end up in a shelter

I have always thought it odd that people hate the BYBs, so they will advise to maybe try a rescue. You don't know about the genetics, health, temperament from almost any dog unless purchased from a breeder.

Even from a reputable breeder how much does the average person understand genetics, what the pedigrees mean etc...

As far as the breeder I would call the cops myself for him pestering you.

Whatever you decide, good wishes.

Lots of good info on raising puppies on this site.


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## llombardo

Lucy Dog said:


> I don't want to turn this thread into another one of the byb vs responsible breeder threads, but just because you got lucky, doesn't mean the OP will.



You already did this 15 posts ago....the OP didn't ask anyones opinion on the breeder(whether reputable or byb)...so lets stay on the topic-either he keeps the dog or gives it back, I believe that was the OP's question.


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## llombardo

Lucy Dog said:


> No, they should be the same price. Why would a female cost more than a male for your average pet own?


I don't know, I know I've called breeders up for puppies in the past and the females were always more expensive by $100.00 or so then males. I just thought it was normal procedure, since I've heard it more then once.


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## Jax08

You gave the man money and he handed you a puppy. At this point, since you want to keep the puppy, tell the man the deal is done and if he contacts you again to EXTORT more money from you then you will contact the police yourself. In fact, call the police right now and tell them the story so you make initial contact. Seriously already...the guy showed up at your front door! And then went to your friends workplace? How did he know where you live and where your friend works???! That's creepy!


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## GSDkid

Jax08 said:


> That's creepy!


Seriously. I'm imagining it like a movie. The breeder waiting until Andrew gets off work to harass him some more or he might even be getting your daily routines to plan a kidnapping of the pup.


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## selzer

Well, I know where all my puppy buyers live. If you do AKC, you have to keep track of those things. But I don't know where they work, that's true. 

Personally, I'm with Jack's Dad, the puppy needs a home. And sometimes, dogs that don't get a stellar start in life do manage to do just fine. I think sometimes dogs that are treated with kid gloves, super duper food, supplements, approved chewies, superb breeding, and the whole nine yards have just as much trouble as the dogs that are given ordinary dog food. My God, Princess lived to 14 almost 15 on Dad's trailmix and Purina dog chow/Come'n'get it. She had a small surgery for stomach cancer -- prior to the stomach cancer she was a stray pup, and we fed her finast brand semi-moist food, until the vet told us to go with something that was 100% nutritionally balanced. 

Other than getting that one lump removed, and having worms as a puppy, she wasn't sick or limping a day in her life, until her last day. 

So, I guess I wouldn't fret over much about the start he got. Just do the best you can from here on out.


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## Freestep

llombardo said:


> This is a terrible thing to say to someone who got a dog that is going to be a pet and the price tag doesn't mean everything.


Why is it terrible say "the price is cheap"? Because $400 is a very low price. A well-bred GSD is generally well into 4 figures; if the cost is much less than that, it generally means the breeder has cut corners. Breeding dogs the right way is very costly.

It's the OP's call whether to keep the puppy or not, and I'm sure they will love him no matter what they spent on him. The price of a puppy can reflect many things, but it does not determine the emotional/sentimental value of a pet.


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## GregMcduck

Thanks guys. I understand the health worries, and I'll cross that bridge if it comes to it. In the meantime, if this guy keeps giving me grief, I'm going to tell him where to stick it.


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## wyominggrandma

Keep your puppy,and tell the breeder to take a flying leap. 
As far as a BYB goes, just because the breeder isn't a big name doesn't mean you will get a bad puppy,just like buying from a big name means the puppy will be perfect. Sure, genetic testing might not have been done on these puppies, but getting a puppy from a big breeder doesn't guarantee good hips/elbows or temperament.There is also no guarantee that the big name breeder will help you with issues.
Get a dog from rescue is another thing...How many threads are there from people getting a dog from rescue and have it attack their children, attack them, attack their roommates, etc. With a Rescue you have less "guarantee" that your dog will be healthy with a good temperament, it might just be a castoff from someone that has issues already.
At least with a puppy, you can raise it your way from 8 weeks..
It makes me sad to have BYB trashed so easily.. yes, lots are a problem, there is no doubt, but there are good small breeders out there that produce nice companions that are healthy and good temperaments and you don't have to pay$2000 for a puppy.


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## selzer

wyominggrandma said:


> Keep your puppy,and tell the breeder to take a flying leap.
> As far as a BYB goes, just because the breeder isn't a big name doesn't mean you will get a bad puppy,just like buying from a big name means the puppy will be perfect. Sure, genetic testing might not have been done on these puppies, but getting a puppy from a big breeder doesn't guarantee good hips/elbows or temperament.There is also no guarantee that the big name breeder will help you with issues.
> Get a dog from rescue is another thing...How many threads are there from people getting a dog from rescue and have it attack their children, attack them, attack their roommates, etc. With a Rescue you have less "guarantee" that your dog will be healthy with a good temperament, it might just be a castoff from someone that has issues already.
> At least with a puppy, you can raise it your way from 8 weeks..
> It makes me sad to have BYB trashed so easily.. yes, lots are a problem, there is no doubt, but there are good small breeders out there that produce nice companions that are healthy and good temperaments and you don't have to pay$2000 for a puppy.


The dog that attacked the kid and had to have the ear reattached was NOT a rescue! 

It was not a breeder, byb, either. We really don't know except that it washed out for police work. 

My guess is that way more dogs who come from a rescue are a successful match than not. When a dog is an adult you can accurately gage the temperament, size, problems, etc. YES THERE ARE BAD RESCUES. But they are not the majority. And there are bad breeders, bad small breeders, bad big breeders, etc.

"The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones."

One bad rescue experience cancels out twenty five hundred good ones, because you hear about the bad one.


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## Jax08

Thank you, Sue.  Reputable rescues have a very high success rate with placing dogs because they foster and get to know the dog before adopting it out.

However....this is not a BYB/rescue bashing thread. This is about whether the "breeder" has a right to demand the puppy he sold back or demand more money for the puppy. And the answer is NO.


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## JakodaCD OA

I say keep him to,,the only thing I can think of the guy could do is , go to the cops and say you 'stole' him, (the big switch since the receipt you have is a for a female, did he keep a copy???, if not, oh well

Or tell him to take you to court, it will cost him WAY more to get you into court over this.

One thing I would be very worried about, is the guy knows where you live, I'd watch that puppy like a hawk , he may try to steal her back who knows???

I may have missed this, but did the guy give you an AKC reg slip?? Is the dog AKC registerable??? If so, what does it say for 'gender' on the akc slip???? 

I like telling him 'sure you can have him back for 1000 bucks' If he keeps coming to your house, I'd call the cops, tell him you'll have him arrested for harrassment.

It might be a good idea to 'talk' to a cop if you know one..see what they say. 

Unless he says you "stole" the puppy, I would think it would be a civil matter.

Keep us updated,,I'm fascinated!! And where are pictures of this girl/boy LOL


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## wyominggrandma

Gee, Selzer,I was not specifically talking about the last child that was attacked,I know that was not a rescue, I was talking about threads about rescues attacking children. I am also not attacking good rescues, I am talking about ones that really don't care where the dog is going, or care about anything other than getting rid of one more dog to empty a cage. 
Obviously since you have something against me Selzer and tend to tear my posts apart,, I should just quit posting. Seems my posts are not good enough for you,you always have something negative to say.
Jakoda, I don't believe there was anything except a bill of sale involved.


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## carmspack

I stand by what I said . It is terribly cheap. To breed a good dog you have to invest in good stock. Then you invest money in stud service to a good male. This may involve travelling . The mother has to have a premium diet to ensure her health and the health and well being of the pups , (epigenetics). 
Belonging to training clubs, showing, x raying , registering , advertising, evening choosing to "wash-out" a prospective dog from breeding , not to mention the hours of time to socialize , keep fit , clean, wear and tear on facilities , supplies, etc . It all adds up.

Of course if you invest nothing --- 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## PupperLove

What Carmen said. It is a cheap price and there is no way anyone who breeds can sell puppies for this cheap if they are putting in all the work needed to stack the deck in the puppy's (and buyer's) favor. And the fact that we are looking at a BYB has alot to do with whether or not it would be a good idea to return the puppy.

If you really are attached to him and have already made the decision to keep him, go to the police now! Honestly I would be VERY uncomfortable with this man knowing where I live and demanding something from me that is not his. I would be scared. He has to have a few screws loose to think he actually has the right to come to your home and a work place to harass you for the puppy and more $$. Who knows what else he's capable of.

Call the police now and tell them exactly what happened. Tell them how the 'breeder' says you 'stole' him and that he's harassing you. I wouuld rather get the first word in with the cops than try and explain myself if he goes to them first...



ugh....good luck. What a mess


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## selzer

This is someone with a couple of roommates. They probably do not have the money to drop a couple of thou on a pup. They are probably doing good by going to a breeder and not putting one on the VISA from the pet store. So this dog cost $400. Well, I will tell you what, I thought that was a lot of money for a dog once upon a time, and I would have been highly offended if people told me the dog I bought was really cheap.

So they bought a dog from someone who is selling them for $400 a piece and probably making money on the deal. For all the reasons you call out Carmen. They did not put anything into it, and of course 7 pups *$400/pup = $2,800 tax free and probably pure profit. But can you guaranty the puppy from the guy who goes the distance will be healthier than the puppy from the guy down the road feeding them Bil Jac or Purina, or the guy feeding them Ole Roy? I think a bitch that can produce a litter of puppies that look halfway decent on Ole Roy, might just be a strong, healthy bitch. 

We really cannot guaranty anything. We can stack the deck in our favor, and we can support the breeders who are breeding the way we think they should, and for the reasons we support, but we cannot say that Puppy A will live problem free for 15 years and then die peacefully in its sleep, and puppy B will be at the vet every other week with problem after problem.


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## selzer

wyominggrandma said:


> Gee, Selzer,I was not specifically talking about the last child that was attacked,I know that was not a rescue, I was talking about threads about rescues attacking children. I am also not attacking good rescues, I am talking about ones that really don't care where the dog is going, or care about anything other than getting rid of one more dog to empty a cage.
> Obviously since you have something against me Selzer and tend to tear my posts apart,, I should just quit posting. Seems my posts are not good enough for you,you always have something negative to say.
> Jakoda, I don't believe there was anything except a bill of sale involved.


You were not specifically talking about those rescues whose owners ought to be behind bars. You were pretty general about how you lumped them all together. 

Just for your information, I do not have a problem with you. I have a problem with some of the things you have posted, and if I disagree with them, I am not afraid to say so. And I will continue to do so, as you are welcome to disagree with things that I say. 

I am sorry that you think that by doing this, I am attacking you. I tend to think it is more that everyone has a right to communicate their opinions.


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## kess&ellie

I would keep the puppy and have it microchipped right away.

There is no way I would give him any more money and I don't see how he can legally get more money from you. It was his mistake. 

Good Luck with your new puppy and if you decide to keep him, we would love to see photos.


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## Ramage

Keep the puppy and tell the breeder to sue you if he's that concerned. Who cares if he calls the cops. I promise you, they won't do anything. They will come out, listen to both sides, then say it's a civil matter and recommend you all go to court.


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## PupperLove

Kess&Ellie, YES!

Great advice, get the pup microchipped. Some of the best advice yet...

OP, that puppy IS yours!


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## Freestep

wyominggrandma said:


> It makes me sad to have BYB trashed so easily..


That is like saying it makes you sad that dog fighters are trashed so easily. BYBs are by definition unethical. If it is a small breeder that does things the right way, with health testing, titles, etc. then it isn't a BYB.


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## Jack's Dad

selzer said:


> This is someone with a couple of roommates. They probably do not have the money to drop a couple of thou on a pup. They are probably doing good by going to a breeder and not putting one on the VISA from the pet store. So this dog cost $400. Well, I will tell you what, I thought that was a lot of money for a dog once upon a time, and I would have been highly offended if people told me the dog I bought was really cheap.
> 
> So they bought a dog from someone who is selling them for $400 a piece and probably making money on the deal. For all the reasons you call out Carmen. They did not put anything into it, and of course 7 pups *$400/pup = $2,800 tax free and probably pure profit. But can you guaranty the puppy from the guy who goes the distance will be healthier than the puppy from the guy down the road feeding them Bil Jac or Purina, or the guy feeding them Ole Roy? I think a bitch that can produce a litter of puppies that look halfway decent on Ole Roy, might just be a strong, healthy bitch.
> 
> We really cannot guaranty anything. We can stack the deck in our favor, and we can support the breeders who are breeding the way we think they should, and for the reasons we support, but we cannot say that Puppy A will live problem free for 15 years and then die peacefully in its sleep, and puppy B will be at the vet every other week with problem after problem.


I pretty much agree selzer.

We met a young early 20's couple a few weeks ago and when they saw Jack they could hardly wait to run to their car and get out their puppy who looked a lot like Jack.
They paid the same as this Op 400 dollars. They knew very little about the breeder and less about the dogs parents. They got the runt of the litter and were as happy as could be. 

The pup was just over 4 months old and of course as cute as could be. He was very outgoing and unafraid. He was greeting people who came to see him and Jack. 

I guess we could have interrogated them and told them how to find a reputable breeder, but why?

They are more representative of the pet buying public than the folk on this board.

We wished them well and they were so happy to talk a little about GSDs that it made my day.

God Bless people who love animals and take care of them no matter where they come from.


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## Freestep

Jack's Dad said:


> God Bless people who love animals and take care of them no matter where they come from.


Of course we love the animals. It's not their fault they were bred and born. The issue is that by buying from BYBs, puppy mills, and pet stores, you are supporting an unethical business and encouraging it to continue.

Most of us have bought puppies from BYBs at some point in our lives when we didn't know better. I certainly have. We all make mistakes and I hope the OP doesn't think we are disparaging him/her. I just don't want others to make the same mistake.


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## llombardo

Jack's Dad said:


> I pretty much agree selzer.
> 
> We met a young early 20's couple a few weeks ago and when they saw Jack they could hardly wait to run to their car and get out their puppy who looked a lot like Jack.
> They paid the same as this Op 400 dollars. They knew very little about the breeder and less about the dogs parents. They got the runt of the litter and were as happy as could be.
> 
> The pup was just over 4 months old and of course as cute as could be. He was very outgoing and unafraid. He was greeting people who came to see him and Jack.
> 
> I guess we could have interrogated them and told them how to find a reputable breeder, but why?
> 
> They are more representative of the pet buying public than the folk on this board.
> 
> We wished them well and they were so happy to talk a little about GSDs that it made my day.
> 
> God Bless people who love animals and take care of them no matter where they come from.


All I can say is I couldn't agree more...Wonderful Post!!


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## Jo_in_TX

Jack's Dad said:


> I pretty much agree selzer.
> 
> We met a young early 20's couple a few weeks ago and when they saw Jack they could hardly wait to run to their car and get out their puppy who looked a lot like Jack.
> They paid the same as this Op 400 dollars. They knew very little about the breeder and less about the dogs parents. They got the runt of the litter and were as happy as could be.
> 
> The pup was just over 4 months old and of course as cute as could be. He was very outgoing and unafraid. He was greeting people who came to see him and Jack.
> 
> I guess we could have interrogated them and told them how to find a reputable breeder, but why?
> 
> They are more representative of the pet buying public than the folk on this board.
> 
> We wished them well and they were so happy to talk a little about GSDs that it made my day.
> 
> God Bless people who love animals and take care of them no matter where they come from.


Amen!


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## Zoeys mom

Your receipt says female puppy....you have a male While it isn't a criminal matter and I doubt he is going to actually file against you for the dog the receipt clearly shows his intent to sell you a FEMALE dog so yes he has a leg to stand on. However, since he's not actually going to sue please microchip this pup and NEVER leave it in the yard unattended....he may steal it. If he calls or shows up again I would be very firm in telling him to leave- stop bargaining with him, put your big boy pants on, and say NO. Ask him to leave or call the police and file trespassing charges so you have a record of him harassing you. Good luck!


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## Jack's Dad

Freestep said:


> Of course we love the animals. It's not their fault they were bred and born. The issue is that by buying from BYBs, puppy mills, and pet stores, you are supporting an unethical business and encouraging it to continue.
> 
> Most of us have bought puppies from BYBs at some point in our lives when we didn't know better. I certainly have. We all make mistakes and I hope the OP doesn't think we are disparaging him/her. I just don't want others to make the same mistake.


The problem is the mass of pet owners are not on forums. So I'm not saying don't preach about reputable breeders, its just that on here you are primarily preaching to the choir.

I also don't think you can say small BYBs are unethical. They just aren't doing what some have decided is required to be a so called reputable breeder. 
I have a friend who has bred her Golden about three times. 
They are very nice people with a very nice dog. You may not like what she does but she is not a bad person. She is not unethical or illegal regardless of what some may think.


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## carmspack

what would Judge Judy say?

here is why it is potentially more of a mess than it is worth -- the buyer intended on buying a female - told the breeder " Andrew wanted a female and told the breeder as such"
The breeder intended on selling a female 

"The breeder picked the puppy, looked at it and said it was a female"
to make sure it was not the male . 

buyer intended on buying a female , seller intended on selling a female .

mistake made , don't ask me how , two parties without knowledge of plumbing .

GO BACK AND READ YOUR RECEIPT . What does it say , (paraphrasing) sold one female GSD ? -- then you do not have what your invoice states and that confirms intentions. 
You said the invoice says female puppy -- you don't have a female puppy.

the breeder realizes his mistake , he has sold a dog which has already been sold - held by deposit, owned by someone else. 
This is where it could get messy . If this person joins in and it becomes a sue-a-rama .
How was the breeder crass . "The breeder was very crass and refused to except responsibility for his mistake. '

How did you want him to show responsibility for the mistake? I keep hearing this line several times.

Other big problem . "said he had gone to Andrew's workplace and convinced Andrew to let him take the dog back."
One of the parties involved agreed to return the dog .

Who paid for the dog. Who handed the money to the person. Whose name is on the receipt. If the answer is Andrew, then Andrew has ALREADY said , take the dog.
It it is not a house or group decision . The contract is between seller and buyer .

In the meantime , IF you decide to keep the dog and weather what ever comes your way , then take the dog to the vet and make sure it has been wormed , make sure it is healthy , no heart murmur , etc etc. Have the vet comment on the general health of the dog .

good luck 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## llombardo

carmspack said:


> what would Judge Judy say?
> 
> here is why it is potentially more of a mess than it is worth -- the buyer intended on buying a female - told the breeder " Andrew wanted a female and told the breeder as such"
> The breeder intended on selling a female
> 
> "The breeder picked the puppy, looked at it and said it was a female"
> to make sure it was not the male .
> 
> buyer intended on buying a female , seller intended on selling a female .
> 
> mistake made , don't ask me how , two parties without knowledge of plumbing .
> 
> 
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs



The OP and the roommates did not have a preference on sex of the dog except for Andrew(he wanted the female), they played with all of them and chose the one they did based on its personality, the breeder is the one that told them it was a female and that is why the receipt says female.


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## Jo_in_TX

Freestep said:


> BYBs are by definition unethical..


I disagree. Sometimes, backyard breeders are simply uneducated. In my area, we have a plethora of immigrants selling puppies, and maybe some of them could be deemed unethical, but most are just ignorant of proper breeding practices.


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## Betty

I think sometimes that our love for the breed and our eagerness to educate everyone can give us tunnel vision and help us forget the good manners our mothers attempted to beat into us.

The OP wanted advice on if they were obligated to give the pup (that it sounds like they have bonded with) back to the breeder. They didn't ask and I don't think they deserved a lecture on byb's and the danger in supporting them.

Like it or not for the vast majority of the population 1-2 grand for a pup just is not going to happen......

My heart dog is from a byb. He is over 12 now and I have had had less health problems with him then I have with some of my more "well bred" dogs. 

So come on guys, I really don't think any one here wants to detract from the enjoyment that only a new pup can give.


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## llombardo

Pictures....do we have pictures yet?


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## Lucy Dog

Jack's Dad said:


> I pretty much agree selzer.
> 
> We met a young early 20's couple a few weeks ago and when they saw Jack they could hardly wait to run to their car and get out their puppy who looked a lot like Jack.
> They paid the same as this Op 400 dollars. They knew very little about the breeder and less about the dogs parents. They got the runt of the litter and were as happy as could be.
> 
> The pup was just over 4 months old and of course as cute as could be. He was very outgoing and unafraid. He was greeting people who came to see him and Jack.
> 
> I guess we could have interrogated them and told them how to find a reputable breeder, but why?
> 
> They are more representative of the pet buying public than the folk on this board.
> 
> We wished them well and they were so happy to talk a little about GSDs that it made my day.
> 
> God Bless people who love animals and take care of them no matter where they come from.


Andy... I agree with 100% with what you're saying. We all make uninformed decision in our lives... it happens to the best of us. Love your BYB dog. Like Freestep said, it's not their fault where they were born.

The only difference I see with this situation is they have the option to possibly go a different route. Most don't have that luxury after the fact that are in similar situations. I understand you get attached to puppies, but they've had this puppy for what... a couple days? Is their really that much attachment in the first 48 hours like say being in a home for 4 months? OP, correct me if I'm wrong with the timeframe. 

I can only speak for what I'd do. Call me cruel, but I'd return that puppy and start from scratch. Do it right this time around. Support a breeder doing the right thing. Not one without the health testing, no regard to genetics, and just pumping out puppies for $400 a pop.


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## PupperLove

Freestep said:


> Of course we love the animals. It's not their fault they were bred and born. The issue is that by buying from BYBs, puppy mills, and pet stores, you are supporting an unethical business and encouraging it to continue.
> 
> Most of us have bought puppies from BYBs at some point in our lives when we didn't know better. I certainly have. We all make mistakes and I hope the OP doesn't think we are disparaging him/her. I just don't want others to make the same mistake.


Agreed.

This is absolutley not about bashing anyone's beloved pet!

BYB dogs do not necessarily mean BAD DOGS, unattractive dogs, unintelligent dogs, or unhealthy dogs. 

It DOES mean that someone is creating more and more puppies without the best interest of the BUYER or PUPPY or the BREED in mind, but for self profit and/or fulfillment.

People need to stop taking so much offense to how much or little they spent on the dog, and look at where they obtained the dog from and what practices were done or _not_ in the creating of that little life!

Same goes for the food we choose to feed our dogs. Just because you feed something that is from a low rating like Ol'Roy or DogChow _does not_ make you a bad owner, or _does not_ make your dog less worthy than another dog. It just supportes ill practices in production, similar to BYB puppies. If certain things keep getting financial support, certain things will continue until the end of time. 

I wish people wouldn't take so much offense to purchasing a puppy from a BYB. What's done is done, I'm pretty sure most of us, if not ALL of us have. I have. On more than one occassion actually. I just wouldn't reccommend it and *will not ever* do it again, just based on personal experiences. What is the real kicker is I got my husband to agree to it! It's all about education.

OP and anyone else who has a dog from a BYB, your dog is not a bad dog and _you are not_ a bad person for having your dog. The breeder just didn't have good intentions other than for themselves and really shouldn't have been supported.


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## Freestep

Jack's Dad said:


> They are very nice people with a very nice dog. You may not like what she does but she is not a bad person. She is not unethical or illegal regardless of what some may think.


It's possible to do something unethical without realizing it. I'm sure she is a very nice lady and is simply ignorant of the problem.


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## Betty

carmspack said:


> what would Judge Judy say?
> 
> here is why it is potentially more of a mess than it is worth -- the buyer intended on buying a female - told the breeder " Andrew wanted a female and told the breeder as such"
> The breeder intended on selling a female
> 
> "The breeder picked the puppy, looked at it and said it was a female"
> to make sure it was not the male .
> 
> buyer intended on buying a female , seller intended on selling a female .
> 
> mistake made , don't ask me how , two parties without knowledge of plumbing .
> 
> GO BACK AND READ YOUR RECEIPT . What does it say , (paraphrasing) sold one female GSD ? -- then you do not have what your invoice states and that confirms intentions.
> You said the invoice says female puppy -- you don't have a female puppy.
> 
> the breeder realizes his mistake , he has sold a dog which has already been sold - held by deposit, owned by someone else.
> This is where it could get messy . If this person joins in and it becomes a sue-a-rama .
> How was the breeder crass . "The breeder was very crass and refused to except responsibility for his mistake. '
> 
> How did you want him to show responsibility for the mistake? I keep hearing this line several times.
> 
> Other big problem . "said he had gone to Andrew's workplace and convinced Andrew to let him take the dog back."
> One of the parties involved agreed to return the dog .
> 
> Who paid for the dog. Who handed the money to the person. Whose name is on the receipt. If the answer is Andrew, then Andrew has ALREADY said , take the dog.
> It it is not a house or group decision . The contract is between seller and buyer .
> 
> In the meantime , IF you decide to keep the dog and weather what ever comes your way , then take the dog to the vet and make sure it has been wormed , make sure it is healthy , no heart murmur , etc etc. Have the vet comment on the general health of the dog .
> 
> good luck
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs



The male/female thing on the receipt is not important. The higher burden is on the breeder not the buyer. It is not the buyer's fault that the breeder, who the law would consider the more knowledgeable party, made a mistake either in the paper work or sexing the puppy.

I don't think it is unusual at all for a person to have a stated preference for one sex and then actually choose a puppy of the opposite sex. 

So he had a deposit on a male puppy. Sounds like he will have to find another male or refund the deposit.


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## llombardo

Lucy Dog said:


> Andy... I agree with 100% with what you're saying. We all make uninformed decision in our lives... it happens to the best of us. Love your BYB dog. Like Freestep said, it's not their fault where they were born.
> 
> The only difference I see with this situation is they have the option to possibly go a different route. Most don't have that luxury after the fact that are in similar situations. I understand you get attached to puppies, but they've had this puppy for what... a couple days? Is their really that much attachment in the first 48 hours like say being in a home for 4 months? OP, correct me if I'm wrong with the timeframe.
> 
> I can only speak for what I'd do. Call me cruel, but I'd return that puppy and start from scratch. Do it right this time around. Support a breeder doing the right thing. Not one without the health testing, no regard to genetics, and jump pumping out puppies for $400 a pop.



Well then I've been making uninformed decisions for 40 years and I've never paid more then $300 with/without papers for any dog....$300 was a even a little to much for me And all of the dogs lived to be 14-15 years with no major problems


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## Beau

OP, you went to pick out a dog from a breeder. You chose one and asked the breeder if the dog was available. The breeder looked at the collar identification, told you yes it was available..ACCEPTED you money and wrote you a receipt. Transaction completed.

The breeder then shows up at you home, claiming he sold you the wrong dog. It was his mistake, not yours. The fact that you have a male puppy and the receipt says female, is irrelevant. The breeder wrote the wrong gender on the receipt. Again, his fault, not yours.

You have the puppy that you want. You will care for it and love it. End of story.

If you decide to keep the puppy, and I think you should, then immediately have it micro-chipped and file a non-emergency report with the police to get your side of the story on record. That way if something happens in the future, you've established a record beforehand of the facts to support your position.

Good luck!


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## Lucy Dog

llombardo said:


> Well then I've been making uninformed decisions for 40 years and I've never paid more then $300 with/without papers for any dog....$300 was a even a little to much for me And all of the dogs lived to be 14-15 years with no major problems


Well keep in mind inflation might have a lot to do with that. $300 today will get you a whole lot less than $300 say 15-20 years ago, let alone 40 years ago. I'm sure you know that, though.

Are these all $300 dogs from breeders or from rescues/shelters too? 

I guess you're just a lucky owner. More power to ya and I'm not saying that sarcastically. All of these dogs were from breeders and you've never had many serious problems with any of them. Most people can't even say that when buying dogs from, what I'd consider, reputable breeders.


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## llombardo

Lucy Dog said:


> Well keep in mind inflation might have a lot to do with that. $300 today will get you a whole lot less than $300 say 15-20 years ago, let alone 40 years ago. I'm sure you know that, though.
> 
> Are these all $300 dogs from breeders or from rescues/shelters too?
> 
> I guess you're just a lucky owner. More power to ya and I'm not saying that sarcastically. All of these dogs were from breeders and you've never had many serious problems with any of them. Most people can't even say that when buying dogs from, what I'd consider, reputable breeders.


$300 two years ago for the golden retriever with AKC papers...he is the most wonderful dog:wub: I would go back to the same people, I actually called them to see if they were going to have another litter right before I got my german shepherd puppy--she was also to good to pass up:wub: I had gotten my mom a Rottweiler(puppy) for free that got cancer when she was 12 and she had to be put down, the same day she was put to sleep I bought a Rott pup for $150...8 years later no issues anywhere. 2 Dalmation puppies, FREE--no health issues(one got off the leash and was hit by a car but she survived A chihuahua(with papers) that was also free..lived for 18 years....I could go on and on and this doesn't include any of the mixed breeds....so maybe I have been lucky but I have had some awesome dogs


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## wyominggrandma

No Freestep, saying BYB getting trashed is NOT like saying dog fighters get trashed. No where close.Not even in the same catagory and a pretty ridiculous comparison..

Maybe I will call them "small family breeders" from now on
.
I have bought dogs from BYB and from well known kennels .The California dog had severe HD at a year old. I bought one from a big show kennel, she was so neurotic she spent her time climbing on anyone's back that she could reach and developed major immune issues. I have bought a few from SFB and had no health issues,no temperament issues,nothing.
I have seen clients bring in $2000 puppies from big kennels and they are walking diaster areas, I have seen $2000 puppies that are great. I have also seen plenty of SFB puppies that have had issues and some that lived till 15 and older without any health issues.Just because a dog is bought for lots of money is not a guarantee it will be healthy and I know plenty of big kennels that manage to not replace or refund money for bad puppies because they figure out a way to make the new owner responsible for the health issues, no matter what the vet says.
I just feel it is sad that someone like the OP comes on board and asks a question about losing his puppy and the first things posted are things like" take him back and go to a big breeder, oh BYB, you would be better off taking him back and getting your money back, go to a rescue.It happens with a sick puppy also," if you had bought from a big breeder, your puppy would not be sick".
Why cant anyone be happy for a poster that is excited about a new puppy? Instead of bashing the choice they made,how come that person can't be welcomed and helped instead of the instant" bad choice, worthless dog/puppy" comments.
I would no more pay $2000+ for a puppy in this economy, but have no problems paying for the best health care/food/training.I am sure there are plenty like me who want a GSD or whatever breed and just can't put out that much cash to purchase one, but have no issues with any other expense.Doesn't make a person stupid or dumb or ignorant, just means they get their "heart dog"from a small family breeder.


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## llombardo

wyominggrandma said:


> I would no more pay $2000+ for a puppy in this economy, but have no problems paying for the best health care/food/training.I am sure there are plenty like me who want a GSD or whatever breed and just can't put out that much cash to purchase one, but have no issues with any other expense.Doesn't make a person stupid or dumb or ignorant, just means they get their "heart dog"from a small family breeder.


:thumbup: and $2000 is still way to much for me


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## dazedtrucker

Beau said:


> OP, you went to pick out a dog from a breeder. You chose one and asked the breeder if the dog was available. The breeder looked at the collar identification, told you yes it was available..ACCEPTED you money and wrote you a receipt. Transaction completed.
> 
> The breeder then shows up at you home, claiming he sold you the wrong dog. It was his mistake, not yours. The fact that you have a male puppy and the receipt says female, is irrelevant. The breeder wrote the wrong gender on the receipt. Again, his fault, not yours.
> 
> You have the puppy that you want. You will care for it and love it. End of story.
> 
> If you decide to keep the puppy, and I think you should, then immediately have it micro-chipped and file a non-emergency report with the police to get your side of the story on record. That way if something happens in the future, you've established a record beforehand of the facts to support your position.
> 
> Good luck!


ITA. Sounds like a sucky situation, but this is exactly what I would do if it were me. Good luck!


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## lorihd

well im sure the law differs from state to state, If it were me, i would keep the puppy and tell the breeder to go pound salt! the mistake was on his part and im certain he has no intention of taking you to court. The nerve to ask for additional money to keep him, just amazing how many scum are out there. well good luck to you and enjoy your new puppy


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## shepherdmom

Lucy Dog said:


> You took the puppy home at 6 weeks? You paid $400 for the puppy? The breeder can't tell the difference between a male and female puppy?!?
> 
> Give the puppy back to the backyard breeder, get your money back, and go with a completely different breeder.
> 
> Not the advice I'd normally give, but given the situation where the puppy is from, I'd give the puppy back and find another breeder without hesitation. It's the best decision for the long run.


They have already bonded with the dog. I'd tell the breeder to pound sand and keep the puppy safe from that nutcase.


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## codmaster

Lawyer?


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## Jessiewessie99

Yikes! Sounds like guy who has a screw loose! If this guy comes back and keeps harassing you call the police. He doesn't deserve this dog back.

Keep the puppy and take it as a lesson learned. We all make mistakes and learn from them. 

As for the BYB vs. Reputable breeder issue: My family and I bought Molly for $25.00. She is healthy, agile, energetic, loyal, smart, and pretty much the perfect dog except for some fear issues. I wouldn't trade her for the world! But in the future I will either A. Save up some money and get a dog from a good breeder or B. Go to a rescue if I want to save me some money. My family and I paid $115.00 to adopt Tanner from a wonderful shelter. I wouldn't hesitate to adopt from them again. Would I buy a dog from the people who bred Molly? No. They didn't health test their dogs, no pedigree or any info on the parents, except that mom was skittish and fearful(hence Molly's fear issues).

I am giving my hard earned money away and I want to make sure it goes to someplace good! I would much rather give my money to a good breeder who health tests, knows their dogs, titles and works their dogs, knows the breed and is breeding to better the breed. I would also much rather give my money to a reputable rescue/shelter that properly places their dogs, gives their dogs proper medical care, vaccinations, microchip etc. I want MY money to be given to a good breeding program or good rescue/shelter that way I know MY money is going to something good and being used properly. When going to a good breeder or good rescue/shelter you are stacking the odds your favor in regards to health, temperament, etc.

I would love all my dogs no matter what and no matter where they came from(I found that rather insulting). I would love all my dogs the same whether they came from a shelter/rescue or breeder.


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## msvette2u

IMO, without a signed agreement stating you'd return the puppy...at all...you are not bound by anything.
I would not give the puppy back. The breeder (and I use that term loosely) is _beyond_ an idiot.


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## codmaster

Freestep said:


> I have to agree with this.
> 
> However, if you really want to keep the puppy, tell this "breeder" to go fly a kite. He can call the police all day long, it's not going to do him a bit of good. Chances are, if he can't even tell a male puppy from a female, he's not playing with a full deck of cards. You can probably sue him if he continues to harass you, and coming onto your property without being invited is technically trespassing.


 
Plus, if you give the pup back i would make sure that you get your refund in CASH (and check the bills!) DO NOT TAKE A CHECK FROM THIS DUDE!


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## msvette2u

I wouldn't even take money from him, I'd make him go get a cashier's check and stand there while he got it from the bank!


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## DharmasMom

Heh. I bet he wants more money because he DOESN'T have the money to refund to the other buyer. He expects the OP to cough up the dough for HIS mistake. 

I say, if you love the puppy, keep the puppy and tell the breeder to take flying leap. Possession is 9/10ths of the law anyway so the burden of proof would be on the breeder and he really doesn't have any. He screwed up. Too bad, so sad. 

I do agree with people who have said to file a report with the police. Get it on record first. Also get the puppy microchipped ASAP and watch him like a hawk. Anyone this unethical or crazy may just try to steal the dog back. Esp if he doesn't have the money to return to the other buyer. 

And MOST IMPORTANT, post pictures of the puppy here. We need to see what the little fellow looks like to really accurately judge the situation. We also need to know what the little guy's name is!!


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## jetscarbie

> what would Judge Judy say


?
You, sir, are a low-life, amoral piece of crap!
I don't care if he signed you the Declaration of Independence!
If you live to be a hundred, you will never be as smart as me. On your BEST day, you're not as smart as *I* am on my WORST day.
...I eat morons like you for breakfast. You're gonna be crying before this is over.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115227/quotes?qt0454016 
I love Judge Judy.

Actually, she would probably say that this is a contracts case. Party A agreed to buy something from Party B. Both agreed that it was a female. A mistake was made and party A received the wrong product. Most likely, Party B did NOT do it on purpose (unless Party A can prove that he did b/c he was planning to extort more money later on) (Where I live.....I usually see males listed for $100 more). Party B realized the mistake and tried to fix it as soon as possible by getting the puppy back and offering the "right" switch.....which was what was originally agreed to by BOTH parties. I think the breeder could at least get the difference in price (if the male was more) but I don't think a judge would order Party A to return the dog.

NOW.....I do wonder if the breeder couldn't go to the cops and say that y'all stole the dog by doing a switch out when he wasn't looking???? Not saying that is what happened at all.....just throwing out a "what if" if the breeder decided he really wanted that male back.

Personally, if it was me....I would tell him to give me my money back and I'll give him back the pup. Then I would take my money elsewhere. I would cut all ties with him!!! I would be so scared if we exchanged for a female at this point....he may give you a terrible one or sickly one. yep, I think I would just cut the ties with him.


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## GSDkid

jetscarbie said:


> ?
> NOW.....I do wonder if the breeder couldn't go to the cops and say that y'all stole the dog by doing a switch out when he wasn't looking???? Not saying that is what happened at all.....just throwing out a "what if" if the breeder decided he really wanted that male back.


Well, the OP has a receipt signed by the breeder. The only thing I would be concerned with is that it states "Female".


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## NancyJ

Someone made a good point..........about the concern on the "switch"

Justice is blind but sometimes she peeks under that blindfold and looks at the folks on either side and makes unfair decisions. Hmmm young fellows, roomates vs a probably older more secure person. Hate to say I have seen, in real life not on TV where the judge made decisions without just sticking to the facts.

On TV Judge Judy is a PRIME example of this kind of prejudice.

To those who think we are rallying against their BYB dogs. It is not saying you can't get a great dog this way - it is about saying things are really wonky here, a decision has to be made about returning the puppy or tying to keep it and risking loosing it anyway....but the point is that healthcare screenings and knowing what is behind the pedigrees can up the odds of not producing a dog with problems-most of the shelter dogs I see posted here clearly look BYB or at least poorly bred)


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## Freestep

wyominggrandma said:


> Maybe I will call them "small family breeders" from now on


Whatever helps you sleep at night.


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## Jax08

codmaster said:


> Plus, if you give the pup back i would make sure that you get your refund in CASH (and check the bills!) DO NOT TAKE A CHECK FROM THIS DUDE!



and make sure any vet bills, grooming, etc, you have incurred are reimbursed. He can not just take the puppy without reimbursing you for costs that you will have to pay out a second time with a new puppy.


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## carmspack

finally, that was my point , it is a "contracts" case.
The pup was not witout a home, there was a person with a deposit on this pup - presold. That person may come after you as well.


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## msvette2u

_Was_ there anything signed?
Or is this just smoke the "breeder" is blowing off?


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## Dragonwyke

Jack's Dad said:


> While I don't disagree with the find a reputable breeder advice, this puppy just like all the others needs a home.
> 
> Any dog from anywhere such as this pup or one from animal control, or rescues. even from reputable breeders can have health or temperament problems.
> 
> No one can give an absolute guarantee.
> 
> If you give the dog back someone else will buy it or it will end up in a shelter
> 
> I have always thought it odd that people hate the BYBs, so they will advise to maybe try a rescue. You don't know about the genetics, health, temperament from almost any dog unless purchased from a breeder.
> 
> Even from a reputable breeder how much does the average person understand genetics, what the pedigrees mean etc...
> 
> As far as the breeder I would call the cops myself for him pestering you.
> 
> Whatever you decide, good wishes.
> 
> Lots of good info on raising puppies on this site.



THIS!!!!!! 

dw~


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## Betty

carmspack said:


> finally, that was my point , it is a "contracts" case.
> The pup was not witout a home, there was a person with a deposit on this pup - presold. That person may come after you as well.


I don't see that happening.

I go to the car lot looking for a Ford and come home with a Chevy. Dealer hands me the keys.

Dealer comes to my house a couple of days later and says he handed me the wrong model, he had a deposit on it, but I can keep it for more money.

So the person that made the deposit on the car is going to come after me? I don't think so..............


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## Snickelfritz

I would keep the puppy. Write down everything that's happened, try to find your food receipts and any sundries you've bought for your new puppy.

Call the police and file a report to be on the safe side. I can't believe the 'breeder' is trying to make you pay more money. That's extortion. Emotional blackmail.

Let us know how it goes. I do think it's scary this guy came to your house and your friend's work. How did he know that?

Make sure you get the pup vetted and microchipped, tatoo his ear if you can afford it. 

Here in AZ if you have a dog for 72 hours, it's considered yours legally. Look up those laws too. Your responsible for that dog after 72 hours.


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## jetscarbie

Betty said:


> I don't see that happening.
> 
> I go to the car lot looking for a Ford and come home with a Chevy. Dealer hands me the keys.
> 
> Dealer comes to my house a couple of days later and says he handed me the wrong model, he had a deposit on it, but I can keep it for more money.
> 
> So the person that made the deposit on the car is going to come after me? I don't think so..............


I do know that a dealer can sell you a car, you drive off in it....and a couple of days later the dealer can take the car back......usually financing has fell through. But they can. And they can charge you money for the mileage you put on the car while you had it. I have read that small clause in all the contracts that I've signed when buying cars.

The truth is....the breeder can claim the men did a switch of puppies when he wasn't looking. he can file theft charges against them. Don't know if it would go anywhere.......op said the have a receipt with the price they paid and it said female on it. I assume it had the sellers signature on it.

Like I said....I would get my money back and give the pup back. I would start looking elsewhere. That's just me though.


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## Betty

jetscarbie said:


> I do know that a dealer can sell you a car, you drive off in it....and a couple of days later the dealer can take the car back......usually financing has fell through. But they can. And they can charge you money for the mileage you put on the car while you had it. I have read that small clause in all the contracts that I've signed when buying cars.
> 
> The truth is....the breeder can claim the men did a switch of puppies when he wasn't looking. he can file theft charges against them. Don't know if it would go anywhere.......op said the have a receipt with the price they paid and it said female on it. I assume it had the sellers signature on it.
> 
> Like I said....I would get my money back and give the pup back. I would start looking elsewhere. That's just me though.


Only if financing has fallen through which means it's not paid for. Pay in full like the pup was paid for and that's a whole different ballgame.


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## msvette2u

> Only if financing has fallen through which means it's not paid for. Pay in full like the pup was paid for and that's a whole different ballgame.


Exactly! And in court, what's this "breeder" going to say?? He got a better offer for the puppy the OP has so now the OP needs to pay him more!? Any judge in the country would throw his ass out of court so fast his head would spin.


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## Betty

And what are the chances of this guy even going to court?

I think some people with the best intentions are possibly exaggerating any risks. If the op wanted to return the pup that would be different.

What I see right now is someone that has a pup that they are happy with. Doesn't get much better then that....


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## doggiedad

1>>> give the pup back and get a female from the same
breeder.

2>>> give the pup back and find a reputable breeder
and get a pup from them. 

try not to lose any money in giving the pup back. i wouldn't
try any strong arm tactics. if you lose your deposit/price of the pup
it only cost you guys $100.00 each to learn a valuable lesson.


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## CelticGlory

I'm confused, I could have sworn in the original post the poster said the breeder had picked up the puppy and started a conversation with his wife? Came back over and handed the poster the puppy, while Andrew gave the dude the money? Am I wrong? If not, than the breeder cannot claim their was a switch!

I'm also confused on the issue of the puppy, did the breeder give away the other female puppies? Why not either 1) ask for a refund or 2) ask for the female that was supposed to be sold to Andrew, the OP, and the girlfriend? If the breeder cannot do so, keep the current puppy. I agree with mircochipping, but also take photos of the puppy from various views with any markings (say if the pup had a white patch on the chest or something), and get the pup into the vet ASAP so you have a file on hand from the vet. Have a paper trail of the pup being owned by you.


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## shmoab

Seems to me like you need others to ease your conscience because you feel you're in the wrong. Why else would you insert completely irrelevant facts related the the backyard breeder's personality and actions? Do you think you'd have this many people telling you what you want to hear had you said the backyard breeder was a decent person or courteous, etc. You and this thread are very transparent. It's actually a very sad sight indeed.

You made a verbal agreement, he made a mistake and you backed out with his property. Those are the facts and all that matter from your post.

***Remainder of post removed by Admin. Please familiarize yourself with the board rules.***


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## Whiteshepherds

I didn't see if the OP said how long it took for the breeder to notice they'd given him the wrong pup. One day, a week, a month?

Whether or not he's a good breeder has nothing to do with it and it doesn't matter if he's the biggest jerk in the world. A mistake was made. I'd have given the pup back.


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## msvette2u

> ***Removed by Admin***


I doubt too many could make the mistake of a boy puppy vs. girl puppy!



> ***Removed by Admin***


This is actually a personal attack and I'm failing to see why this person warrants a personal attack??

As I said before - the seller was probably trying to auction off these puppies and could get a higher price, which is why the story and now a desire to get even more money out of the OP, so why should the OP now (after the transaction is done) give the seller _more_ money or even the puppy back??

No good breeder operates this way- IMO, a shoddy breeder shouldn't be kowtowed to.


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## DharmasMom

shmoab said:


> Seems to me like you need others to ease your conscience because you feel you're in the wrong. Why else would you insert completely irrelevant facts related the the backyard breeder's personality and actions? Do you think you'd have this many people telling you what you want to hear had you said the backyard breeder was a decent person or courteous, etc. You and this thread are very transparent. It's actually a very sad sight indeed.
> 
> You made a verbal agreement, he made a mistake and you backed out with his property. Those are the facts and all that matter from your post.
> 
> ***Removed by Admin***


 
How exactly is the OP in the wrong? He (or his roommate) bought the puppy in good faith. They believed they got the female they asked for because that was what the breeder told them. They did not realize the mistake until later and they were already attached to the puppy by then. 

The breeder then shows up and demands EITHER the puppy back or more money. That sounds like extortion to me. The breeder screwed up, that is not the OP's fault. 

The breeder needs to go back to the people who placed the deposit and say "Oops, I screwed up big time. I sold your pup by mistake. I can offer you another pup or your money back but the puppy is gone. I AM SORRY."


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## Freestep

shmoab said:


> Seems to me like you need others to ease your conscience because you feel you're in the wrong. Why else would you insert completely irrelevant facts related the the backyard breeder's personality and actions? Do you think you'd have this many people telling you what you want to hear had you said the backyard breeder was a decent person or courteous, etc. You and this thread are very transparent. It's actually a very sad sight indeed.
> 
> You made a verbal agreement, he made a mistake and you backed out with his property. Those are the facts and all that matter from your post.
> 
> ***Removed by Admin***


You've got to be kidding me. Are you the breeder?


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## DharmasMom

Freestep said:


> You've got to be kidding me. Are you the breeder?



HA!!! I thought that too, when I first read that!


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## NancyJ

I have to agree with the others that, based on the OPs description, the breeder came in acting as though the buyers were in the wrong, demanded the puppy - OR - more money back to the point of hunting down the purchaser at his place of work, which is very wrong and could have had negative consequences for him at work.

No way would I take another dog from a person behaving that way and the request for more money sounds suspicious.


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## GSDGunner

Freestep said:


> You've got to be kidding me. Are you the breeder?


I thought so as well. They haven't posted here in over 3 years (right after they joined) and the only post is on this thread? Weird!


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## shmoab

Betty said:


> Only if financing has fallen through which means it's not paid for. Pay in full like the pup was paid for and that's a whole different ballgame.


No. A coworker bought a 2wd Jeep Liberty. Turned out it was 4wd and the dealer called him to bring back the vehicle for the model he agreed to purchase and explained the signed documents and such. Yes, the vehicle was paid for by the bank which to the dealer doesn't matter because they had all the money. Thing is, he did the right thing and took the car back. Yeah, we joked around that he should have kept it, etc. but that wasn't the right thing to do and it was never even seriously considered. Of course we both made comments concerning the dealer's vague threats as rude and uncalled for. I guess now, I know why he had to make threats. I'll definitely have to show my coworker this thread. Actually, no, I don't want anybody to see this thread. I wish I hadn't seen it either.


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## msvette2u

> Thing is, he did the right thing and took the car back.


Thing is, a car dealership is licensed, bonded, whatever, all that crap.
They saw this puppy "breeder" in the paper or on craigslist, I'm sure. It's all very shady, not on the up-and-up.

I have no idea what your problem is about it, but there is no "right" and "wrong" in this situation, other than the breeder screwed up and now wants to punish the OP. How is that even legit??

As for that car dealer - that is a stupid mistake all around, the dealer and your friend should have looked at the dash board where the switch usually is for 2wd./4wd. Ours is right there plain as day and you could never mistake our truck for a 2wd. At the very very least, the VIN would have showed a 4wd vs. 2wd.


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## Lilie

JakodaCD OA said:


> I say keep him to,,the only thing I can think of the guy could do is , go to the cops and say you 'stole' him, (the big switch since the receipt you have is a for a female, did he keep a copy???, if not, oh well


This is where I'd be concerned. The breeder can say that they sold you a female pup and that is what you wanted because the males were more expensive. Then, before you left you switched them. That you and your friends did it on purpose. 

I would think it would be more difficult to prove that you are telling the truth since you have a receipt that shows you agreed to and purchased a female pup, but you brought home a male pup. 

If it were me, I'd wash my hands of the whole affair. Tell the byb that you do not want to do business with them, you want your money back (cash only) and you'll return the pup. Count your blessings, learn from your mistakes and try again using what you've learned.


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## msvette2u

> This is where I'd be concerned. The breeder can say that they sold you a female pup and that is what you wanted because the males were more expensive. Then, before you left you switched them. That you and your friends did it on purpose.
> 
> I would think it would be more difficult to prove that you are telling the truth since you have a receipt that shows you agreed to and purchased a female pup, but you brought home a male pup.


My gut tells me this would turn into a civil matter, depending on what officer investigates the "theft". When the OP (and friends) tell their side of the story and it's not just black and white, the officer is liable to say "settle in in court".

And no breeder of this caliber would want to spend the $$ to go to court over it.


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## shmoab

Why don't you reread the original post and acertain the FACTS yourself? Then call a lawyer and have him do the same. Of course, you're all blinded by the BYB's attitude or, rather, the OP's perception or, more than likely, what the OP wants you to believe the BYB's personality to be and thus get your support in his disiscion.


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## msvette2u

shmoab said:


> Why don't you reread the original post and acertain the FACTS yourself? Then call a lawyer and have him do the same. Of course, you're all blinded by the BYB's attitude or, rather, the OP's perception or, more than likely, what the OP wants you to believe the BYB's personality to be and thus get your support in his disiscion.


_ARE_ you in fact the breeder?? Or friends with said breeder??

We have a rescue and I did re-read the OPs original post in fact. And I still say the same. It's not the OP or his friend's fault the breeder could not tell a male puppy from a female. 
These are not kittens (who all look virtually the same), puppies are easy to tell which sex is which.


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## GSDBESTK9

He doesn't have anything to stand on. You could argue that you wanted a male and he wrote "female" on the receipt by mistake. :shrug: If I were a cop/judge, I would believe that before someone not being able to tell if a puppy is male or female.


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## Jax08

shmoab said:


> Why don't you reread the original post and acertain the FACTS yourself? Then call a lawyer and have him do the same. Of course, you're all blinded by the BYB's attitude or, rather, the OP's perception or, more than likely, what the OP wants you to believe the BYB's personality to be and thus get your support in his disiscion.



Wait a minute....

Ok, yes the breeder wanted the puppy back on the grounds that they took the wrong one. Not that he accidentally gave away the wrong one.  But it wasn't just that he wanted the puppy back because someone else had an agreement with him...he also tried to get more money from the OP if they wanted to keep the puppy.

The "dishonesty" and "unethical" part would not just apply to the OP. If the breeder truly wanted the puppy back because he had an agreement with someone else then he would not have told them they could keep him for more money.


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## msvette2u

> If the breeder truly wanted the puppy back because he had an agreement with someone else then he would not have told them they could keep him for more money.


Excellent point - that was somewhere in the recesses of my mind but I kept overlooking it!

This "breeder" is a scam artist, I'm glad the OP and friends have said puppy, and I think they ought to just forget the whole thing and keep a close eye on that pup.


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## Beau

shmoab said:


> Why don't you reread the original post and acertain the FACTS yourself? Then call a lawyer and have him do the same. Of course, you're all blinded by the BYB's attitude or, rather, the OP's perception or, more than likely, what the OP wants you to believe the BYB's personality to be and thus get your support in his disiscion.


 
Okay, on you advice I re-read the original post. Didn't change my opinion.

But since you seem to have one that's different or maybe as the breeder have a different version of the events, why don't you share what you think you know? 

And do so, without attacking the OP for simply asking a question of a forum that's dedicated to serving GSD's. 

And by the way, I don't have to call a lawyer. I live with one.


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## msvette2u

I meant to say I have become well-versed in legal issues surrounding custody and care of dogs, by sheer necessity, and I still think the OP ought to keep this pup, and as others said, the "breeder" has no legal leg to stand on.

As GSD pointed out, the OP could claim they asked for a male, and the breeder had female on his mind when he wrote out the receipt.


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## Courtney

GregMcduck, can you please provide us with an update on this situation?


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## shmoab

Ain't no winning with you regardless of what the facts are or examples given. All you know is a jerk of a BYB sold a dog and now wants it back. 
I know, it's hard to take the side of a BYB by rescue volunteers. I loathe them as much as anybody. I saved tens of Huskies that they and their enabling patrons abandoned along the Front Range of CO during my time with Polaris. But, the fact is the OP engaged into a business deal with an absentminded or misinformed (maybe the guys wife accidentally put the wrong collar on the dog. The OP didn't originally state the BYB inspected the dog's genitalia.) BYB and the OP, blinded by puppy love, didn't honor the agreement.


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## shmoab

msvette2u said:


> _ARE_ you in fact the breeder?? Or friends with said breeder??
> 
> We have a rescue and I did re-read the OPs original post in fact. And I still say the same. It's not the OP or his friend's fault the breeder could not tell a male puppy from a female.
> These are not kittens (who all look virtually the same), puppies are easy to tell which sex is which.





msvette2u said:


> I meant to say I have become well-versed in legal issues surrounding custody and care of dogs, by sheer necessity, and I still think the OP ought to keep this pup, and as others said, the "breeder" has no legal leg to stand on.
> 
> As GSD pointed out, the OP could claim they asked for a male, and the breeder had female on his mind when he wrote out the receipt.


Do you people see and understand this? Amazing!
So you advocate lying?? And since you are referring to the law getting involved (re: "legal leg to stand on"). Do you also advocate lying in a court of law while under oath?


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## msvette2u

Who is lying!?

What am I/are we missing here?? The "facts" are one person's account of the situation, so what are we missing? Others are asking the same thing.

The only liar I see here is the seller, since he's going to jack up the price after the sale is concluded, under the premise he "has another buyer", well, perhaps he doesn't, perhaps he does, but you don't go back to someone after the sale and say you want even more money, for what, your own screw up??



> the OP could claim they asked for a male,


I didn't mean this as a suggestion, but merely pointing out that this is a tactic anyone could use, in court, or whatever - because basically all bets are off at this point, if the selling party is not going to be telling the truth. Fact is, they are already lying, it appears.


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## Beau

Yes, he did. The relevant paragraph reads:

"The breeder picked the puppy, looked at it and said it was a female. He held it for a while and talked with his wife, referring to it has female several times. He said it was available, and handed the puppy to me. I held the puppy the entire time, there was no moment where it could have accidentally mingled with the others. The breeder took the identification collar off, Andrew handed over the money ($400) and the breeder gave him a receipt. We took the dog home and have begun raising him."

Forget the argument about BYB's vs "reputable breeders" for a minute. I don't think that's relevant in this discussion or situation. But anyone who raises dogs, breeds them, or lives with them ought to be able to distinguish between a male or female dog at a GLANCE. It's common sense and a function of distinguishable anatomy. 

If a mistake was made, it's the sellers mistake. He can't then claim that it was the buyers fault and demand the puppy back or that they owe more money. He could have appealed to their sense of fair play, discussing the mistake and explained that at his kennel, boys cost more than girls and asked politely for the cost differential. If the buyers refused, tough noogies. Chalk it up to a learning experience (next time..check twice) and move on. 

But showing up, unannounced at their home and then going to someone's place of work, during working hours, is out of line and in my mind is somewhat threatening. Hence,, my advice to the OP.


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## msvette2u

> If the buyers refused, tough noogies. Chalk it up to a learning experience (next time..check twice) and move on.


Exactly...shmoab, why are your undies so bunched over this??


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## codmaster

DharmasMom said:


> HA!!! I thought that too, when I first read that!


 
Me too.


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## msvette2u

codmaster said:


> Me too.


Well, me 15, but I didn't want to state the obvious.


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## shmoab

Good riddance to this thread. 

What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. The sad part is I don't think you people can come to a logical conclusion based on facts alone. Furthermore dishonesty is not only accepted but encouraged. 

I hope to continue on this forum for a while. I have many questions related to GSDs, breeds, breeders, rescues, etc. While I usually venture outside the subject of which the particular is dedicated, into subforums such as the lounge and off-topic discussions, I see that by your opinions here strictly GSD discussion is where it will stay.


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## Chris Wild

This thread has gotten ridiculous. I think the OP has gotten as many good suggestions as possible, mixed in with a whole lot of silly bickering. It has definitely run it's course and it's time to close this one.

-Admin


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