# Help please!!!!



## CherryCola (Apr 24, 2006)

I can't quite work out what's happened, I'm so upset, I'm in tears over this.. I'm hoping someone can help me to think logically and clearly about this..

Cherry is my beautiful 2 year old female GSD and Phoebe is my Mums 1 year old female Border Collie. I still live at home with my parents. The pups got along perfectly. We had expected they would since Cherry is so incredibly loving. She adores Phoebe. Snuggles with her, plays with her, shares food with her. They're best friends..

Today, they had a fight.. My Mum was there and said she couldn't see what had provoked it. She said Cherry was staring at Phoebe and then just jumped on her. It appeared to be mostly mouthing and a lot of noise which sounded very scary, but Phoebe does have a cut ear and Cherry a cut lip. We split them up.. They calmed down and seemed back to normal, so we tried re-introducing them and Cherry just started at her again.. I'm just shocked. I've never seen this side to my girl before, and I can't understand what the cause of this is.

I took into consideration maybe that she's not feeling well, but she seems fine on her own. The only other thing I can think of is that Cherry is in heat at the moment (she will be spayed.. It's a long story), it's never happened before.. She did have a false pregnancy before in which she wasn't at all herself. But that occured about 7 weeks after the heat. Not during it. I can't think of anything else. She's been a bit more clingy with me today than usual, but that's about it.

I'm lost for words.. My Dad has said he'll throw me and Cherry out if she tries again.. They are currently separated. Can someone give me an idea as to what is going on in my little girls head right now? It's like I have a different dog, I don't recognize her right now


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I hate to sound flip but she's in heat so my guess is it's killer PMS. I would keep her and Phoebe separated until it's over.


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## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

Heat can make even the nicest of dogs be VERY naughty. It does not happen with all of the girls, but I have seen it a LOT!


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

I have a female who got into a fight with her "best friend" once while she was in heat (when she was about 2 1/2). I separated them right away and took awhile before I allowed them back together again. My girl is very high drive and for some reason that heat she was just over the top intense. They are fine together now and luckily they haven't had a problem since. They other female is is a total omega dog so there is no challenge on her part.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

When I got my second dog, I went to the pound and fell in love with a bitch that was the same size and the same age as my girl Zamboni. 

The new girl was a Staffordshire Terrier mix. After I brought her home and settled her in, I was talking to someone savvy about dogs who told me whatever you do, don't get a dog that's approximately the same age, around the same size and the same sex as your first one -- especially females. 


The two girls got along beautifully --until one day, about four months in, they had a HELLACIOUS fight. Fortunately, I knew enough (despite my naivete and ignorance at the time) to stay calm and handle the situation by putting them both in separate rooms and keeping them separated for about two weeks. I also did what I now know is called NILIF. (I just called it "Mom's Boot Camp" at the time)

It seems to me that you have basically the same situation. At least both of my girls were spayed. I would guess that was somewhat helpful. I'm sure it also helped that *I* was the ONLY owner of both of them. I lived alone and had no other family members to deal with. So I was able to ensure that MY rules were followed consistently. 

But there's a reason that we say Bitches = Stiches. 

Val (Wisc Tiger) is a source of great insight on this. Some females learn to live happily together. But some never do. Cherry is leaving adolescence at the same time that your parents' BC is reaching the adolescent stage where she may be starting to assert herself. I can see why Cherry wouldn't like that, but the BC is doing what all teenagers do -- testing the limits. I've seen it in my own house enough times; but my adults have fully adult brains and can deal with it maturely, without an *aggressive* smack-down. 

This may be hormones. It may be more than that. It's probably an excellent time to bring in a reputable trainer to assess your situation and give you a clearer idea of what you're looking at. If it's more than hormones, you're going to need strong tools on how to *manage* this situation. Val can also give you information on this. 

Good luck Kim


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## MelissaHoyer (Sep 8, 2006)

The only time my females have ever scuffled is when Kira was in heat. We kept them separated until she was out and then carefully reintroduced them. This was a couple years ago and all has been fine since then.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Having two females living together is always a risk - even if they are BOTH spayed. Having one (or more) intact is just increasing that risk.

Keep them separated at ALL times from now on. Maybe in a month or so when the one is finished with her heat cycle you can try re-introducing them but don't be surprised if they STILL fight.


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## CherryCola (Apr 24, 2006)

Thank you for all the comments it's very much appreciated







I really hope that this is just a hormonal thing and everything will be back to normal soon.. I do tend to think of the worst case scenario sometimes









Cherry's just such a mellow, loving dog, it's very difficult to believe she's being like this. I'm keeping them separated and I'll slowly try to re-introduce when her heat is over with. She does seem a little 'off' as I look at her now.. She's been clingy all day, but this evening she just wants to lay with her head on me instead of playing a game. She didn't seem particularly interested in our usual routine, she just wanted to lay with me. 

It's just a little difficult right now because my Grandfather died a couple of weeks ago and so everyone is still very upset and this isn't helping matters.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you are fooling yourself into believing everything will be hunky dory. Your girl has had a bloody fight with another bitch. Unless you and EVERYONE else in the house goes into a super leadership, NILIF mode with both dogs ALL THE TIME, this WILL happen again. And even if you ALL do this, there is still the possibility it will happen again if you put them together. 

PLEASE, never leave them alone in the house together. 

Frankly, I think it is time for you to seriously consider finding a place where you and your bitch can live. I have very little hope that a father that threatens to throw you and the dog out if this happens again will go that extra mile to do NILIF with your dog, and forget it with his. 

This is what is happening as I see it: Your bitch is a mature female who has hormones raging from being in heat. His dog is reaching sexual maturity. Both bitches want the attention, pets, food, treats, toys, first. They are like toddlers: MINE! They can be terribly jealous of affection, etc. I do not think spaying one or both will help. I really do not think training will help that much as there has been blood between them. 

The remember. 

Good luck.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

I remember your parents decision to get a a BC and choosing a female. At the time I had the feeling conflict would ensue. Cherry, as a gsd, is more likely to cause the most damage even to the point of killing the BC. Cherry is at the age (especially as she is not desexed) where she will start exerting her dominance.

Once this conflict has been expressed it is unlikely to be forgotten by either dog so, consistent separation and monitoring is now essential. Your fathers comments are rather negative, when if he had taken the time to be informed he would have chosen a male dog. So ... he is more to blame than Cherry, not that I expect that he will see his contribution.

If you can afford it, I would suggest you find alternate accomodation for you and Cherry as this situation is unlikely to resolve without severe consequences and from your fathers comments Cherry is going to be seen as the problem.

I do understand your father being concerned about his dogs welfare but he also has to take responsibility for his choices when he did not do proper research.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Alison so well said. 

I have only had 2 females once, and I won't do it again unless I bring a young puppy into a house with an very mature (10+) year old female. By the time the youngster hits sexual maturity the other female is likey to be gone. 

Once the fighting starts between 2 females it is not likely to be easily managed. I am not an expert as I have only done this once with a 3 year old rescue that I ended up returning due to the fighting with my 12 year old female. The young dog nearly killed my old girl. Poor Lucky did not need to spend her last year on earth fighting with a very dominant working line bitch. Kady just wanted to fit in and the old dog was in her way. It was very gut wrnechingly difficult to return her. Dogs do this stuff.

Perhaps if both dogs are generally not dominant, this may pass once Cherry is out of heat. You can probably understand sometimes how crummy you feel when you are PMSing or it is that time of the month. Dogs feel it too.

Dad needs to understand, get educated and help you make it work with continual supervision. I find it amazing that we don't give the dogs any benefit only a threat to toss them out along with the human daughter. 

Kim I am so sorry but perhaps it is time for you to think about finding your own place with Cherry. I can't remember how old you are. You have been on the forum a long time and I think you are an adult now.


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## CherryCola (Apr 24, 2006)

Thank you all so much for the comments, I've taken them all on board.. I have a little update..

The girls spent the rest of yesterday and all of last night seperated. This morning, Phoebe heard Cherry and started to whine and jump up at the door. When Cherry heard this, she too started to whine. We allowed them to see each other at a distance through the glass panels in the door. They both seemed excited to see each other.. So Mum and I discussed this and decided to let them greet very slowly, but to separate them as if so much as a funny look was passed between them.. They licked each others faces and then Cherry did a play gesture and they started playing








I'm still very wary and since Cherry is still in heat, they have been supervised very closely all day and the moments that I couldn't watch them they were again separated. Currently, they are snuggled up together fast asleep right where I can see them. They won't ever be left alone.

I'm going to give NILIF a go and I think it'd be good if my Mum especially did with Cherry also, as I notice that Cherry doesn't always listen to my Mum. It is a little bit of a difficult situation with the fact that my Dad and I don't really get along (he's the reason Cherry is still unspayed..) and he's not very knowledgeable about dogs in general








In an ideal world, I'd like to find somewhere else to live with Cherry.. But at current it's tough. I have high-functioning autism, and I rely on my Mum for help with a lot. I'm not sure I'd cope on my own - she kinda holds me together.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry this is so difficult. My brother has two females and a male and all live ok together and intact. He is on top of them though, Jazzy is close to 10 and Scarlet is 15 months. 

What you have is two young females, being close in age, they are both jockying for position. Dogs can sometimes fight it out and then be fine together, not so with bitches. They hold a grudge and have long memories, and once there is blood, it is hard for that to change. 

I think you need to have a heart to heart talk with your mom, and she has to be your ally and be strong and put her foot down with Dad.  

I sure hope this works out ok for you.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Kim, I had not realized you were autistic, that makes life harder for you. I hope your dad comes round and this all works out for you.









Glad to hear the dogs are doing okay together. You might think about keeping a sort tab on both dogs collars. That wya you can grab them easier if they give each other threatening looks.


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## CherryCola (Apr 24, 2006)

Thank you Kathy









They've been okay again today.. Though they've not played. Cherry seems very down. She doesn't want to play with me either and she's not her usual silly self at all. She's had a very serious face all day. Her personality is very much like it was when she had a phantom pregnancy, just minus the nesting behaviour, etc. I'm wondering if this is a hormonal imbalance of some kind. I've spoken to Mum today and she's going to try and talk to my Dad. She thinks it's unfair on both of them to be unhappy and that we should spay them as soon as possible. So she's going to help me sort that out this week.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't really have much to add to this other than agreeing that if she's not doing well with heat cycles and now that aggression is in the mix that you really should get her spayed. It doesn't sound like she does well with being in heat at all.

I hope that your father will come around. What would his reaction be if you just took her to the vet and got her spayed without telling him? Obviously the stiches would give it away (or would they--you said they are seperated--are they really in the same house all that much?) Maybe you could go on a two week holiday with the dog and really take her on a spay trip!

Normally I'd say if you're living under your parent's roof you have to suck it up and deal with their rules or move out. However, brining a disability into the mix abviously adds a complication to that. I think it's kind of heartless of your father to make that threat. 

If worse comes to worse could you find somewhere to live within a couple blocks of your parents? That way you are still close enough that your mom can help you, but on your own and able to make your own choices about your dog and life?


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## CherryCola (Apr 24, 2006)

Thanks GSDElsa







My Mum has told my Dad that I'm getting Cherry spayed. I explained again the benefits of having it done and he's agreed that he'll help me out with that







If the worst were to happen I think my Grandma would help me out. And she doesn't live very far either.

This morning Cherry did her usual waking me up routine, which she hasn't done for a few days as she's been a completely different dog. So I was encouraged that as I got up and she was bringing me toys that she seemed more like herself. Today, she has played with Phoebe all day, she's been washing her, nuzzling her, and just generally babying her all day. They've been wonderful







Her personality seems back to normal and she's enthusiastic about her dinner again (she went off it a bit







). Hopefully things will continue in this way and this was all just some major PMSing!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Kim,

Female GSD's CAN at least sometimes can get along. I had a 3 yr old spayed female when we got a puppy (Am show line) and they grew up together and had only one disagreement in the 4 years they lived together.

And that was my fault as I threw a bone for them to chase and the younger one (about 1.5 - 2 yo at the time) got it first and the older GSD wanted it and thought she should have it and the younger one would not give it up.

Pretty interesting discussion they had for a few minutes till I really stupidly grabbed both them and broke it up. Only time they had any rough interaction at all, so generally they got along great and played and played.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I think if there is a significant age difference (4 to 5 to 6 years age difference) there is less liklihood of fighting.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that if they are spayed before they reach sexual maturity, both bitches, then maybe it would be easier. But once there are problems or aggression, spaying a female is not necessarily going to give you the results that neutering a male might give, because you are eliminating a very different hormone.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

hi kim, sounds like things are better at the moment (way better that your dad has agreed to the spaying), but i do want to caution you to never be completely comfortable with them being together, and as you said, never leave them alone together.

i have two alpha girls and live by gate, crate, and rotate. it does sound like cherry being in heat is a definite factor. but as selzer said, once there's been blood...

many blessings to you and your family.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Gald to hear that Cherry is more herself (more photos are always welcome







).
Is there any way that you & your mum can do some classes together with the dogs? do the first set with you handling Cherry & your mum handling Phoebe, then do a second set of classes and switch dogs: this would help your mum's relationship with Cherry alot & would be great fun for both of you


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## CherryCola (Apr 24, 2006)

Thanks again for the comments







And Alto - thanks for the suggestion! I think it'd be really good for us to do something together like that.

I understand that spaying may not necessarily fix things, but since the only times Cherry has shown aggression is during her heat and false pregnancy I wonder if this is the sort of aggression that would be eased by spaying. I won't ever trust them together - they will always be watched when together. But at the moment they both seem very happy and Cherry is being extremely affectionate again


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Kim, just checkin in to offer some encouragement and support! You are doing a great job with a rough situation. I am sending positive energy that things will all be worked out with spaying, training, NILIF and a management system at home of not leaving them alone together. Plus, you KNOW I am so madly in love with your girl Cherry!!







Hang in there. Let us know how things are going!


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## CherryCola (Apr 24, 2006)

Thank you Patti!!!







So far, so good, I really think that this will be manageable, or even dare to hope that this was just a one time thing. They're both back to being best friends, Cherry's even being slightly maternal with Phoebe it seems - she's washing her and nuzzling







Oh, and getting into mischief together too, of course!


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