# Father uses dog collar to shock kids



## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

A Salem man was arrested Tuesday for putting an electric dog collar on each of his four children and shocking them.
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Todd Marcum, 41, said he did it "because he thought it was funny," Salem Police Lt. Dave Okada said.

The four children, ages 3, 6, 8 and 9, had been shocked while wearing the collar at least once, according to a statement from their father, Okada said.

Marcum told police that he would chase the 3-year-old boy around with the collar, making him cry at the thought of being shocked. Okada said that because of the boy's behavior, it is likely that the children were shocked more than once.

Oregon Department of Human Services workers on Tuesday summoned police to Marcum's Salem home.

Marcum was taken into custody on four charges of first-degree criminal mistreatment. He is in the Marion County jail.

The four children were left in the custody of their mother, Okada said. The case has been handed over to DHS.


To read the full story...


http://www.statesmanjournal.com/article/20090506/NEWS/905060441/1001


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

And some people get upset on the board when e-collars are mentioned because NO ONE they know mis-uses them! I hope this guy gets a REALLY long sentence and his inmate buddies know exactly why he is there. I doubt they would be much kinder and gentler to him than he was to those poor children.


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## flyinghayden (Oct 7, 2005)

Leave him with me for a day. I will put that shock collar in a good place. Then chase him around until he cries. Plus we wouldn't have to worry about him pro-creating afterwards.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

I heard about that, I feel bad for those children. I have heard different things about this story.


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqAnd some people get upset on the board when e-collars are mentioned because NO ONE they know mis-uses them!..


Well yes, but how often DO you hear of it? 
I'm sure somewhere someone has used a leash to beat there kids, do we ban all leashes?
Anything can be used as a weapon in the hands of the wrong person. 
This man is a very sick individual and needs medical help. Instead of prison he needs to be locked in the phsyc ward.
Hmmm, shock treatment?

I can't stop thinking of that little 3 yo. Poor baby!
This whole family is going to need consuling for a long time.


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: crabbyI'm sure somewhere someone has used a leash to beat there kids, do we ban all leashes?
> Anything can be used as a weapon in the hands of the wrong person.


Agreed.


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## LHunter82FXRS (Oct 20, 2008)

That is terrible, those poor kids!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: flyinghayden Leave him with me for a day. I will put that shock collar in a good place. Then chase him around until he cries. Plus we wouldn't have to worry about him pro-creating afterwards.


Sounds like a plan to me.


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## ninhar (Mar 22, 2003)

Wow. What a sick SOB he is. Yeah, he needs a good shock treatment.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Sick.

I've seen some you tube videos of a father paying his kid $10.00 to put on a shock collar and be shocked. The kid was about 10 years old and he cried, while the father laughed. What a terrible thing to do to your kids.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Well yes, but how often DO you hear of it?


Well, this is the first time I've heard about it with kids, but I hear of, see, and rescue dogs who have been abused by poor e-collar training quite routinely time. I'm _not_ anti-e-collar. But I just wish I didn't see them misused so much.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

That's absolutely horrific. To find pleasure in chasing your 3 year old son around the house making him cry (let alone the other 3 children) because it's "funny"? Crabby is right, hopefully he will be put in a mental hospital. While he won't be mistreated like he would in a prison, they would likely find a personality disorder that no amount of therapy would ever fix to the point where a psychologist would be willing to put his or her career on the line to sign him out. It's a trade off, getting mistreated by inmates or spending most, if not all, of the rest of his life in a mental hospital.


My question is, where was the mother when all this was happening? If this happened to the point where the 3 year old would run crying, you'd think she'd have SOME idea of what was going on. I hope they did EXTENSIVE evaluations before releasing the children back into her custody.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

What a moron. This is one guy I would like to meet just to try and figure out how anyone could be so stupid.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How about making a special collar for him during his incarceration?

I really have to wonder about e-collars though, if they hurt a child, they hurt a dog. Some dogs will recover well to that stuff and learn, a soft dog might have more trouble.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I've threatened my teenage boys about doing it when they were severely misbehaving, but actually doing it? Uh no!!! Idiot.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

> Quote:"There's not one collar made today that can actually burn a dog or a person," Seroczynski said.
> 
> Most collars are powered by a 9-volt battery and don't produce a large enough shock to injure a person, he said. Seroczynski said it was not likely that the children were seriously injured.
> 
> "He definitely would not have hurt them to the point that it would have damaged any organs or caused them to be hospitalized," he said.


While I don't doubt that the children were hurt, by the sounds of the article it wasn't substantial. I wouldn't recommend the use of an e-collar on a child, but when using one on a dog the point is to inflict some level of pain as a form of correction. You wouldn't want to cause substantial injury, but if there isn't some registration of pain then for the type of dog that needs an e-collar it will be no more effective than letting the dog run around without any collar on at all.

I had an aunt with 2 huskys. At 5 and 6 years old, they were the most incorrigable dogs I have possibly ever seen at that age. They barked at everything, fought, pulled on walks, wouldn't listen to commands, jumped on visitors, chased the cats, etc. They had been through numerous training classes on numerous occasions. Finally they tried a class based on use of e-collars. While I'd hope to never have to use one on my dogs, as a last resort it worked really well for her dogs. Life after e-collar training meant long walks, staying inside when visitors were over, peace for the cats/wildlife/neighbors walking by, more treats as they followed commands, and suddenly got along.

I think the key is using a collar that is right for your dog. Why should "soft" dogs mean that other dogs can't use the method. But I think anyone with half a brain and no mental illnesses would agree that the vast majority of training methods for animals should not be used on children (vast majority, because treats work as well for kids as they do for pups!)


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WI've threatened my teenage boys about doing it when they were severely misbehaving, but actually doing it? Uh no!!! Idiot.


My aunt (as I was talking about in my last post) used to threaten her husband with it. Sure was funny to joke about


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Generally a bee or a hornet won't seriously injure you or kill you. Forcing a child to squash a bee or hornet with their finger though would be torture.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerGenerally a bee or a hornet won't seriously injure you or kill you. Forcing a child to squash a bee or hornet with their finger though would be torture.





> Originally Posted By: mmarieI wouldn't recommend the use of an e-collar on a child


I think I already addressed your concern. My point was, use of an e-collar on a child because a person finds it funny does not mean it cannot be an effective tool when training some dogs, as you implied.


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## ninhar (Mar 22, 2003)

> Quote:My question is, where was the mother when all this was happening? If this happened to the point where the 3 year old would run crying, you'd think she'd have SOME idea of what was going on. I hope they did EXTENSIVE evaluations before releasing the children back into her custody.


I wondered the same thing, it was mentioned in the comments. Her son called her at work about the father doing this. She came home and called the police.


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## Nellie (Apr 23, 2009)

Think the moronic behaviour of the farther is in question here really, think this sort of person would find any tool or object to torment and torture his kids with, SSOB


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ninhar I wondered the same thing, it was mentioned in the comments. Her son called her at work about the father doing this. She came home and called the police.


Thank you! I retract my previous statement. And good job to mom, I'm sure there are a lot of moms out there who wouldn't have been able to call the police.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqAnd some people get upset on the board when e-collars are mentioned because NO ONE they know mis-uses them!


Please direct us to ANYONE who has said that "no one … misuses Ecollars." Hear the crickets? That's because no one has made such an absurd statement. 

Some of us get upset when Ecollars are discussed ONLY as being capable of misuse or abuse. And BTW this is not a case of "misuse." It's obviously a case of ABUSE, something quite different. 

Additionally, as anyone with a shred of common sense knows, ANY tool used in dog training can be misused or abused. That includes treats, clickers, haltis, harnesses flat buckle collars and Ecollars. 

And finally, this is nothing but a case of child abuse where the parent (hardly deserving of the word) happened to use a dog training tool as his tool of abuse. He might have burned them with boiling water, whipped them with electrical cords or a stick, but he chose the Ecollar. His reasoning? "Because he thought it was funny … " If anyone was doing the same thing to a dog for the same reason, he'd be guilty if abuse and subject to arrest and conviction.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: flyinghayden Leave him with me for a day. I will put that shock collar in a good place. Then chase him around until he cries. Plus we wouldn't have to worry about him pro-creating afterwards.


While the sentiment is appreciated, you're wrong. The Ecollar is one of the few tools that exists for training a dog that can not cause any physical damage. He'd certainly suffer while you were torturing him but he'd be perfectly capable of "pro-creating" afterwards.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: crabbyWell yes, but how often DO you hear of it? I'm sure somewhere someone has used a leash to beat there kids, do we ban all leashes? Anything can be used as a weapon in the hands of the wrong person.


Too much common sense in this response. LOL.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> > Quote: Well yes, but how often DO you hear of it?
> ...


Again, while the sentiment is appreciated, it's misguided. FAR MORE dogs are abused with leashes and various kinds of correction collars or even flat buckle collars than are abused with Ecollars.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I really have to wonder about e-collars though, if they hurt a child, they hurt a dog. Some dogs will recover well to that stuff and learn, a soft dog might have more trouble.


Yes, if an Ecollar is used at a high level they'll hurt whatever animal is wearing them. But since they can easily be used (and I think they're far more effective) at low levels that do not cause pain, there's no reason to use the painful levels. 

Actually, when the tool is used properly it's one of the best for a soft dog. If you're interested in how this is done, take a look at the articles on my site that describe it in great detail.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: mmarie
> While I don't doubt that the children were hurt, by the sounds of the article it wasn't substantial. I wouldn't recommend the use of an e-collar on a child, but when using one on a dog the point is to inflict some level of pain as a form of correction.


The pain that you describe here actually only needs to be minor discomfort. Pain is a continuum ranging from "I can't stand that for another moment" to "It's chilly, I think I need a sweater." 



> Originally Posted By: mmarie You wouldn't want to cause substantial injury,


The ONLY injury that an Ecollar can inflict is some sores due to leaving them on for too long or too loosely. It's impossible to cause burns or any other physical injury from the stim. 



> Originally Posted By: mmarie but if there isn't some registration of pain then for the type of dog that needs an e-collar it will be no more effective than letting the dog run around without any collar on at all.


I'll disagree and having trained well over 3,000 dogs with Ecollar I know better. 



> Originally Posted By: mmarie I think the key is using a collar that is right for your dog.


I think the key is using the Ecollar properly. As to the right one, stick with the name brands, Dogtra, Tri-Tronics or Unleashed Technology.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: crabby
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: AmaruqAnd some people get upset on the board when e-collars are mentioned because NO ONE they know mis-uses them!..
> ...


those leather leashes would make for a good butt woop'n. i remember when i was a kid i got the leather belt. and thats not unusual...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No thanks. I do not like shocks or pokes. I am not a dog, but I know exactly what my dogs think about it too. 

I have a cattle fence -- a visible wire that is powered by a solar element, safe for cattle, horses, and dogs. My dogs with run to the fence, slow, look where the wire is, and then go forward enough so that they will still be clear of the wire. 

I do not feel like this is cruel because it is not hiding it from the dogs, it is not given to them via a collar around their neck. They know to stay away from the fence and they do not associate it with me when they are stung by it. I have been stung by it and it really isn't that bad, but the dogs respect it and leave it alone. 

So I will not use an e-collar on my dogs. I do not need them to control my dogs. My dogs wear no collar at home and they listen to me just fine. When we are out, we use martingales, flat collars, and occasionally a slip collar. My dogs obey my voice. The collar and leash is an umbilical cord between us that is there to protect the dog in the event that the dog makes a mistake. 

Somehow getting a negative signal by magic on their neck simply does not sound like a good thing for a soft dog.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

Selzer, I've read it in books, magazines, and here on the forums hundreds of times--not all training methods are meant for all dogs. As such, I can't imagine anyone with the minutest of experience suggest using an e-collar on a "soft" dog. That is not the point that has come up.

The point that has come up is, some dogs need this method. Soft dogs? No. But there are dogs out there that would likely end up in shelters being PTS because no other training method is working for the owner and the owner doesn't want an uncontrolable dog.

It's great that other methods work for you and your dog, but there are some people that reach great success with dogs that would otherwise be nothing more than an annoyance to the owners (which the dogs would sense, even if the owners didn't take them to a shelter). Should those strong-willed, hard-headed dogs that would benefit from this method be deprived of a joyful life because some idiot decides to abuse his children or "soft" dog with an e-collar?


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> The pain that you describe here actually only needs to be minor discomfort. Pain is a continuum ranging from "I can't stand that for another moment" to "It's chilly, I think I need a sweater."


I don't believe I said what level of pain need used, and I'm sorry if I made you think I believe it should be any more than what it takes for the dog to register that a correction is being made and I am definately not talking anything substantial.



> Originally Posted By: LouCastleThe ONLY injury that an Ecollar can inflict is some sores due to leaving them on for too long or too loosely. It's impossible to cause burns or any other physical injury from the stim.


Thanks, I read that in the article. I don't believe I said it would actually cause injury, I was simply furthering my point made before--some level of pain is necessary for it to register, that level of pain should not be enough to cause injury (hence why they aren't made in a fashion that can burn the dogs)



> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: mmarie but if there isn't some registration of pain then for the type of dog that needs an e-collar it will be no more effective than letting the dog run around without any collar on at all.
> ...


Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but as a trainer having trained well over 3,000 dogs with e-collar are you suggesting to me that the dog should not register that the e-collar has made a correction? If the dog is not registering "it's a little chilly" why would he "put his coat on", as you put it before.



> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: mmarie I think the key is using a collar that is right for your dog.
> ...


Let me clarify: I think the key is using the type of collar that is right for your dog. If all you need is a nylon collar, don't use a prong. If all you need is a prong, don't use an e-collar. If you understood that and your position is still that the key is using the e-collar properly...


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

Oh, and also...



> Originally Posted By: LouCastleFAR MORE dogs are abused with leashes and various kinds of correction collars or even flat buckle collars than are abused with Ecollars.


Especially given your debate on another thread regarding research, I would be very interested in research done comparing the RATE of abuse for the different training methods (not just the number of abuse cases for each).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This was an awful case of child abuse, plain and simple. The tool used is moot. Since this has turned into another e-collar debate and gone totally off topic I am closing the thread.


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